# Carmina vs Alden



## ShoeQ (Jun 15, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I recently learned about Carmina as a cordovan specialist. Unfortunately, they do not have a retail store in the states. Does anyone have any experience with both and know how one compares with the other? :smile:


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## challer (Sep 4, 2008)

I have too many pair of Alden, one pair of Carmina (Rain whole cut) purchased in Paris. Comparable quality. The Carmina is a much lighter weight shoe and a nice alternative to Alden. I plan to purchase several more. I do not know where to get them in the US; I use trips to Europe to look for them.


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## velomane (Nov 6, 2009)

As of last week, Epaulet New York is your source for Carmina footwear in America. Have a look:


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

I've seen some nice work with Cordovan from Carmina and will give them a try next time around( if only to try something different than Alden). Rider does Cordovan pretty well too.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

velomane said:


> As of last week, Epaulet New York is your source for Carmina footwear in America. Have a look:


Those double monk saddle shell cordovans are nice! I'd definitely get them if I had an extra $800 lying around.


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## ShoeQ (Jun 15, 2011)

challer said:


> I have too many pair of Alden, one pair of Carmina (Rain whole cut) purchased in Paris. Comparable quality. The Carmina is a much lighter weight shoe and a nice alternative to Alden. I plan to purchase several more. I do not know where to get them in the US; I use trips to Europe to look for them.


Interesting. Actually I really like Cordovan shoes to be relatively "heavy" as it gives me the solid feel. Calf shoe is a different stories as elegance tends to play a role too (not saying cordovan models are not). If Carmina shoes are good year welted and uses cordovan, what would cause the weight of the shoes be lighter though? The sole? no metal shank?... Just curious as I am considering Carmina on my next European trip


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## ShoeQ (Jun 15, 2011)

justonemore said:


> I've seen some nice work with Cordovan from Carmina and will give them a try next time around( if only to try something different than Alden). Rider does Cordovan pretty well too.


Another discovery! So far, the following companies make Cordovan shoes (please feel free to add to the list):

Alden
Allen Edmonds
Rider
Carmina
Edwards Green

Quality, feel, last... any comment on them?


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

ShoeQ said:


> Another discovery! So far, the following companies make Cordovan shoes (please feel free to add to the list):
> 
> Alden
> Allen Edmonds
> ...


Crockett and Jones
Church's
John Lobb
Mezlan


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

StephenRG said:


> Crockett and Jones
> Church's
> John Lobb
> Mezlan


Don't forget AS.

Really, most of the better makers who offer a MTO program can make you something in Shell. I've never seen a shell John Lobb RTW though. On the other hand, I know Lobb Saint James produces in shell. G&G might be unwilling to work with shell.


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

StephenRG said:


> Crockett and Jones
> Church's
> John Lobb
> Mezlan


Septième Largeur
Vass
Meermin (coming soon)


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## ShoeQ (Jun 15, 2011)

Do all of them use cordovan from Horween nowdays? Complete list so far (always amazed by how knowledgeable people on this forum are!):

Alden
Allen Edmonds
Rider
Carmina
Edwards Green
Crockett and Jones
Church's
John Lobb
Mezlan 
Septième Largeur
Vass
Meermin (coming soon)

I personally only tried Alden, AE and C&J. I found C&J stitching on the bottom of the shoe to be really consistent whereas the Alden ones are more unpredictable -- sometimes dangerously close to the edge. That being side, I do hear the Alden produces better patina over time. Any experience with other brands?


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## challer (Sep 4, 2008)

Can't explain it. But I've put then on a scale and the difference is marked.


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

ShoeQ said:


> Do all of them use cordovan from Horween nowdays? Complete list so far (always amazed by how knowledgeable people on this forum are!):
> 
> Alden
> Allen Edmonds
> ...


I'm a relative newbie, but I think that all of those companies are using Horween. Apparently there's 1 (or 2?) producer(s) of shell cordovan in Japan, but I don't think any of the western shoe makers use it. Ron Rider commented on a thread about Japanese cordovan on Style Forum that someone in Italy claims to make shell cordovan in lots of funky colors, but that it turned out to be doctored cowhide. I've seen custom Tricker's cordovan shoes on websites in loud colors that make me wonder if they've bought this dubious shell from Italy.

Nick D.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

ncdobson said:


> I'm a relative newbie, but I think that all of those companies are using Horween. Apparently there's 1 (or 2?) producer(s) of shell cordovan in Japan, but I don't think any of the western shoe makers use it. Ron Rider commented on a thread about Japanese cordovan on Style Forum that someone in Italy claims to make shell cordovan in lots of funky colors, but that it turned out to be doctored cowhide. I've seen custom Tricker's cordovan shoes on websites in loud colors that make me wonder if they've bought this dubious shell from Italy.
> 
> Nick D.


I've heard that Trickers uses Horween, and other sources. Anyone who wants shell from Trickers should make sure they know where it's coming from.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

I believe Ludwig Reiter out of Vienna Austria uses cordovan but I don't see anything in the current catalogue offering.


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

Heinrich Dinkelacker in Germany also offers shell, but it's hard to tell whether they're produced by Vass or in house.


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## ShoeQ (Jun 15, 2011)

ncdobson said:


> I'm a relative newbie, but I think that all of those companies are using Horween. Apparently there's 1 (or 2?) producer(s) of shell cordovan in Japan, but I don't think any of the western shoe makers use it. Ron Rider commented on a thread about Japanese cordovan on Style Forum that someone in Italy claims to make shell cordovan in lots of funky colors, but that it turned out to be doctored cowhide. I've seen custom Tricker's cordovan shoes on websites in loud colors that make me wonder if they've bought this dubious shell from Italy.
> 
> Nick D.


Thanks Nick, sounds like one needs to be extra careful with exotic "cordovan" shoes... All of the threads on SF and AAAC I've seen so far are among the following colors:

Black
#8
Dark Brown
Cigar
Wisky
Revolle (not sure i spelled it right)

and I do hear that Camina offers some additional colors which I'd love to see how they look. If all of them come from Horween, then I would assume they develop in similar ways over time...

One point though, among shells, Alden and AE certainly offers some "good value", and since Alden really develops patina in very nice ways, what promotes us to spend more $$$ on the seemingly more costly alternatives (maybe last, comfort?) Just some random ideas...


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## Bucksfan (May 25, 2008)

ShoeQ said:


> Thanks Nick, sounds like one needs to be extra careful with exotic "cordovan" shoes... All of the threads on SF and AAAC I've seen so far are among the following colors
> 
> One point though, among shells, Alden and AE certainly offers some "good value", and since Alden really develops patina in very nice ways, what promotes us to spend more $$$ on the seemingly more costly alternatives (maybe last, comfort?) Just some random ideas...


Alden= Natural (really rare), Whiskey, Ravello, Cigar, #8, Black. 
AE = walnut, brown, burgundy, black 
C&J = brown only (I think - maybe black too) 
Don't know the others.

The things that drive buyers to the other (primarily European) makers is construction quality and last design primarily. Regarding patina, Alden's #8 is really the Horween #8 (which others use too) with a dark, eggplant color finish applied at the Alden factory. This is the part that makes the Aldens appear to patinate so drastically (as this deteriorates / wears off).


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## ShoeQ (Jun 15, 2011)

Bucksfan said:


> Alden= Natural (really rare), Whiskey, Ravello, Cigar, #8, Black.
> AE = walnut, brown, burgundy, black
> C&J = brown only (I think - maybe black too)
> Don't know the others.
> ...


Very interesting points...


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

Here's an image of the Horween spectrum from a blog

I just received Alfred Sargent plain toe monks in burgundy. The color is much subtler than the Alden #8. Chay Cooper at AS told me that they have access to burgundy, whiskey, black & dark cognac.

If you go to the Shoe Healer site (https://www.shoehealer.co.uk) & search for cordovan, you'll find bright red, mauve, & blue. The Tricker's website has even more options: https://www.trickers.com/made_to_order/madetoorder_leathers_linings.htm

More later,

Nick


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## temple_gym (Oct 10, 2010)

Check out The Armoury (HongKong): https://thearmoury.com/


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## ShoeQ (Jun 15, 2011)

ncdobson said:


> Here's an image of the Horween spectrum from a blog
> 
> I just received Alfred Sargent plain toe monks in burgundy. The color is much subtler than the Alden #8. Chay Cooper at AS told me that they have access to burgundy, whiskey, black & dark cognac.
> 
> ...


Truly amazing... I wish I can see shoes made in those colors in person. Thanks, Nick.


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## ShoeQ (Jun 15, 2011)

temple_gym said:


> Check out The Armoury (HongKong): https://thearmoury.com/


Nice link and great styles!


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

Here's a link to a long Style Forum thread on Japanese cordovan that includes some pics & Ron Rider's description of faux shell:

https://www.styleforum.net/t/66697/japanese-cordovan/45

I was considering trying to find a sheet of Horween shell to have made into shoes, but it didn't pan out.

Nick


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## temple_gym (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanks for sharing. Is it possible to get loose sheets of cordovan?



ncdobson said:


> Here's a link to a long Style Forum thread on Japanese cordovan that includes some pics & Ron Rider's description of faux shell:
> 
> https://www.styleforum.net/t/66697/japanese-cordovan/45
> 
> ...


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

Most better shoe manufacturers will make any of their standard models in shell (or "crup" as it is called in the UK) if you ask them to.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

ShoeQ said:


> Do all of them use cordovan from Horween nowdays? Complete list so far (always amazed by how knowledgeable people on this forum are!):
> 
> Alden
> Allen Edmonds
> ...


Don't forget Rancourt and Company. Not only do they make shell in various colors, but it is available as an option on most shoes that they make.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

temple_gym said:


> Thanks for sharing. Is it possible to get loose sheets of cordovan?


It is possible, but maybe not easy.


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

temple_gym said:


> Thanks for sharing. Is it possible to get loose sheets of cordovan?


Here are the resources I tried:

https://www.siegelofca.com/view_cat_product.asp?id=78https://www.brettunsvillage.com/leather/sides.htm

https://www.archery-interchange.net/f16/cordovan-sheet-supplyer-25954/

At the time Siegel said they were out, but Brettuns Village had black. I'm having a belt made by David Lewis (aka distinctive on Style Forum) in #8, and a watch band in #4. He says that he can get natural shell from Japan, & Rancourte & Co. seems to have green cordovan.

A Style Forum thread on Meermin says that the company indicates that it shell comes from Argentina. The only Italian cordovan website I've found (https://www.comipel.it/) is for Mogano (whatever that means), & it says that it's shell comes from Japan for refinishing in Italy.

Thanks for starting this interesting thread,

Nick D.


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## Mute (Apr 3, 2005)

For dress shoes, I prefer Carmina's lasts. On something more casual like a boot (hint - 403 Indy), I'd go Alden.


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## ramalhoni (Mar 22, 2011)

Carmina makes a great shoe... I love them..


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## temple_gym (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanks for sharing guys. I will go through the links that have been provided.



joenobody0 said:


> It is possible, but maybe not easy.





ncdobson said:


> Here are the resources I tried:
> 
> https://www.siegelofca.com/view_cat_product.asp?id=78https://www.brettunsvillage.com/leather/sides.htm
> 
> ...


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## Owen Meany (Jul 10, 2008)

I very recently took delivery of a pair of Carmina shell, monk straps on the Rain last. I also have a pair of shell monk straps from Alden, but for the lasts, they are very very similar in style. (which was troublesome for my wife!)

I would put Alden as a distant second. I paid $550 for the Alden and $607 Shipped to my door from Spain for the Carminas. 

I have always been troubled by the quality of Alden shoes. I have three pair and each have some sort of anomaly that I find unacceptable for such an expensive shoe. So much so, I have taken Alden's off my list of options and no longer consider them for my needs.

With that said, the Carmina were a very pleasant surprise (was never able to physically inspect a pair before ordering from Spain) and they look beautiful. The Goodyear welting give them a slightly more stable look over that of other expensive (non-American) brands, and I really appreciated it. The soles are very nicely finished and have four brass nails in the toe for wear protection. 

The cordovan is a little stiff but I expect it to give over the first few wears. This also makes buckling the monk strap a little tricky. The Rain fit is a little snug but not so much as I feel the need to exchange and I order my typical US-EU converted size with out any other compensating size adjustment. 

For $57 difference, its a no-brainer in favor of the Carmina. They are so much more "refined" and classically styled, whereas, by comparison, the Alden's are clunky. I have a pair of C&J monks traps on calfskin and are not directly comparable, but were close in price when ordered from pediwear. The C&J have a thinker sole and, naturally, the leather is so supple. 

I am so impressed with the Carmina and their availability, that I have just ordered (2) more pairs. I have a few pair of C&J, but they are difficult to find in a style and size I want. The Carmina web-store is very well stocked. Limiting to the OP's inquiry only - I would order the Carmina over the Alden, always.

Good Luck and whatever you buy, I hope you enjoy! jtb


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## Barcelona (Aug 13, 2009)

Owen Meany said:


> I very recently took delivery of a pair of Carmina shell, monk straps on the Rain last. I also have a pair of shell monk straps from Alden, but for the lasts, they are very very similar in style. (which was troublesome for my wife!)
> 
> I would put Alden as a distant second. I paid $550 for the Alden and $607 Shipped to my door from Spain for the Carminas.
> 
> ...


How did you figure out what size to order the Carminas in without trying them on?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Owen Meany said:


> I very recently took delivery of a pair of Carmina shell, monk straps on the Rain last. I also have a pair of shell monk straps from Alden, but for the lasts, they are very very similar in style. (which was troublesome for my wife!)
> 
> I would put Alden as a distant second. I paid $550 for the Alden and $607 Shipped to my door from Spain for the Carminas.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, Owen Meany, you are spot-on with your assessment but, I suspect that John Irving would have recommended wearing the Alden options, for "The Last Night In Twisted River!" In any event, LOL, I will "pray for you."


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## Owen Meany (Jul 10, 2008)

I order my typical US-EU converted size with out any other compensating size adjustment. [/QUOTE said:


> This is how I selected the size....thx, jtb


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