# Anyone here go to Duke?



## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Just wondering what the alumni read is on the present situation with the lacrosse team.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

I'm no alum, but let's knock this one out early...Horny Devils. Good, that's finished.


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## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

Hey...wait a minute here!!....


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## bwep (Apr 17, 2005)

My wife and her roomies are heading to Durham this weekend for their 20 yr reunion.

"...always aspire to live simply and elegantly." - Madeleine Finn


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

This is a serious question. Jimmy DukeGrad used to post here frequently, and would have a very valid opinion, in my view.

It is a very sad situation, based on the arrest of those two young men, yesterday.

We may never know exactly what happened on the night in question, but there are a string of ruined, or damaged young lives as a result of the situation.

Who knows what part a DA running for re election in about 10 days played in the eventual outcome. 

A very sad situation for all involved, that could have happened almost anywhere.

Carpe Diem


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## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

Yes, this is very sad situation for everyone involved.
What bothers me most is that if indeed a rape or assault occurred, you would hope someone might have been decent enough to step up and say "I'm not going to let this happen" and intervene. I wonder if some of these Lacrosse Players just stood around with a beer in their hand and watched it happen? If yes, they all should be charged. Perhaps very similar to what happened to Sarah Tobias (true story) in that bar where she was raped and patrons in the bar cheered it on. A movie was made about that with Jodie Foster called The Accused.

Again, we really don't know what happend that night. People are innocent until proven guilty. One thing we do know, she obviously did not rape/assault herself. I guarantee that everything will start to unravel and the truth will be known when people involved start running for cover to save their own hide from going to jail.

Violence against women in this country is profound....

Any current or former criminal prosecutors on this board? I would be interested to know what you think. 

Cheers
TheSaint


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by TheSaint_
> 
> Violence against women in this country is profound....
> 
> ...


One of the root problems is that young men are no longer raised to be gentlemen.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

Anyone know what happened to DukeGrad?

Karl


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

In this Duke case, my gut instinct, almost from the very get-go, has been that this is another Tawana Brawley case. Suspect the victim was dissatisfied with her tip or that she was stiffed for some "professional services." It is very hard for me believe that in a group of 45 college men, there wouldn't be a substantial number who would protest or intervene in the case of a rape attempt, even of a stripper...or at the very least be candid with the authorities as the case was being investigated after the fact.

In the notorious case of the Rape at Big Dan's bar, there was no "cheering crowd of patrons." There was the victim, the perpetrators (the number five sticks in my head) and the bartender, and that was it. Initial reports described the fictitious cheering crowd, and commentators asked, "My God, has rape become a spectator sport in this country?" Although I am not saying her conduct justified or even mitigated the crime of gang-rape, one would have to question the judgement of young woman who went alone in the middle of the night into a tough biker bar to buy cigarettes!


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

JLibourel,

Wow - what a blast from the past! Tawana Brawley! Amazing that Sharpton still commands some respect. I had just started high school when that debacle began and I remember what a racial pressure cooker NYC was in the late 80's- early 90's (the murder of Yusef Hawkins, the Central Park jogger case, the Crown Heights riots.) It seems such a shame that a lot of people seem take sides based on some sort of misplaced racial loyalty. The presumption of innocence is a quaint notion in our jaded and cynical times. Let us hope that the truth is uncovered in this case and that justice is done.

Karl


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## JBZ (Mar 28, 2005)

I don't usually get involved in these discussions, but I find it interesting that the implication (or outright statements) of some of the foregoing posts is that the Duke students didn't commit the rape and that the woman in question is making the story up. My take is that we simply don't have enough information to make that judgment at this point.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's a huge stretch to see something like this occurring in a housefull of drunk, college age men. There is some truth to the idea of mob mentality. It's also possible that the alleged rape happened out of the eye and earshot of most of the party goers. It also does not stretch the realm of believability that these students (most part of the same sports team) would bond together in a solidarity of silence after the fact.

Finally, it doesn't stretch the realm of believability that the alleged victim made the story up.

My point is, we just don't know. It's a bit early to talk with indignity about the ruined lives of these students with the paltry amount of information we have at this point. It's all just speculation. Of course, the tawdriness of all of it makes it fun to discuss.

Ultimately, here's how I come out at this point: if these students are found guilty, they should be convicted and punished to the full extent of the law. If they are found not guilty, they should be freed. Until a decision on their guilt is made, they are innocent.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm not sure whether other lacrosse players would intervene, given today's moral climate. I know I've seen a couple of news stories where pornographers have produced porn movies in drunken frat parties, with the members as active participants. Perhaps the guys at the party similarly viewed the stripper as fair game (not defending such actions if they occurred, just saying that there is no clear line in today's society as to what actions are tolerated).

However, according to a news story today, it seems that perhaps one of the players arrested has a pretty strong alibi, based on testimony of a cab driver that said he'd left the party, an ATM machine showing he was taking money out of the machine around the time of the alleged attack, and dorm entry and phone records indicating same.

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by JBZ_
> Ultimately, here's how I come out at this point: if these students are found guilty, they should be convicted and punished to the full extent of the law. If they are found not guilty, they should be freed. Until a decision on their guilt is made, they are innocent.


I agree they must be punished if found guilty and I actually think castration is the fit punishment for rape. My question though is, what if this is another Brawley case? Should there then not be criminal charges laid against the alleged victim? Lives are being greatly impacted, imagine being one of the other 27 men, rounded up *SOLELY BASED ON RACE* and forced to give DNA samples. Me thinks the Sharptons and Jacksons should think very hard about the issue of race in this case as the team was certainly racially profiled and in a very public and invasive way.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen,

I bite the bullet, on this one. Here I am. 
I am upset at the goings on. I am a graduate of Duke, and my son as well.
I have been exposed to Duke, in my early years. I spent most my life in NC. I know these things happen. I can honestly say, this will fall, in favor of the team.
I can say that Duke, is about the number of people, who graduate from there, and go on.
To productive, great lives.
Duke, is so different from anything, my friends.
I can speak for its medical school, and various residencies.
The gentleman, that is doing the Lipitor commercial, Dr. Jarvik, he is a Bio Medical engineer, and an MD.
That surgery was done by a graduate from Duke, the Cardiothoracic residency.
Around 20-30 years ago, Duke was at the forefront in Surgery.
The residents, did research, another 2 years on a residency.
Many,trained under DR. DCS.
The textbook of surgery carries his name.He did the first CABG.
He was an honorary fellow for the Royal College of Surgeons.
Many people, who left this program, went on to fine programs, and ran them. As full Professors, and Chairman of Departments.
All surgical specialties, came under this fine, gentleman.
I have friends, all over the world, that are graduates of this fine institution. And making an impact.
Duke my friends, is not about the basketball.
It is not about many ACC tournaments.
It is about the many fine people, who move on and lead healthy, productive lives.
I am very proud, of my alma mater. No matter what.
I am proud of Dr. Brodhead, and how professionally he is handling this crap.
I am proud of the atheletic director, and what he has done as well.
I am very disgusted, and upset, at how NCCU is approaching this.
This has been directed by the DA, who is up for election.
I hope the rich, white school crap stops.
When I went there, I was dirt poor, and had my GI bill!
Duke, opened up doors for me my friends.
It help to elevate, a wonderful, remarkable military career.
I feel terrible, for the Duke community, because I know how bad I feel.
It will end.
As far as the athletes, this was wrong.
To drink, on a Div 1 team, that is competitive.
A stripper, this was wrong too.
Men will be men.That is not an excuse.
This was wrong.
They "did not"touch this woman.
Have nice day my friends,
Miss you all


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## Morris (Feb 13, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Beresford_
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Amen.

-- Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen,

Intrepid thhank you my friend.
Karl been busy, with dressing, and work.
And the lake!

Nice day my friends


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

DukeGrad,

Nice to have you back. But please more frequent SITREPS, ok?

Karl


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Karl

You got it.
I miss being a soldier.
I miss being there.
The only thing I have now, is being a proud veteran; this I do well.
You have nice day, Karl

Jimmy


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Relative to the points Jimmy/DukeGrad made, the very fact that Duke is an "elite" university would indicate that these young men had to be superior students, which indicates a certain element of self-discipline and "character." Very often to get into elite colleges these days a good deal of community service is required--another selection in favor of "character." Now I am the last person to argue that educational achievement is a guarantor of good character, and I have always scoffed at the notion that sports "build character." Nonetheless, we are talking about a pretty elite segment of the young male population. As the stepfather of a 21-year-old male, I find it extremely hard to believe that our young male population has become so depraved that out of 45 elite student-athletes not a single one would protest a rape in progress and that all would maintain a strict code of silence in its aftermath.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

So, rich white kids, good, poor black single mothers who strip for a living, bad? Is that the depths you are plumbing here?

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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

JLibourel, relevant to your point is this excerpt from an NBC story today:

"Both Seligmann and Finnerty are products of wealthy New York City suburbs and all-male Roman Catholic prep schools. Finnerty attended Long Island's Chaminade High School, where 99 percent of the students go on to college. Seligmann went to the exclusive Delbarton School, a lacrosse powerhouse in Morristown, N.J."



So apparently both these young men had not only a top-flight education before coming to Duke, but they went to schools where one would like to hope Christian morals and ethics were stressed.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Beresford_
> 
> So apparently both these young men had not only a top-flight education before coming to Duke, but they went to schools where one would like to hope Christian morals and ethics were stressed.


I guess it must have been those Christian morals and ethics that led Mr Finnerty to be arrested in Washington DC for calling a man gay and assaulting him?

Or maybe it was his top-flight education?

Are you so blind to think that a high cost education makes you somehow a better person morally than someone who goes to the local community college?

You are obviously not at all aquainted with the British upper classes......

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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

It's ridiculous to say the fact that they got into Duke shows character. I've known lots of bright creeps. In fact, I've known quite a few bright, rich creeps who felt a sense of entitlement. Some even dress tastefully and contribute to charities. They may even own a dog or cat. No doubt Duke has its share of creeps, on this team and off this team, like any institution will.

On the other hand I've heard people say lacrosse players are animals. I played lacrosse in prep school. The people I played with were not animals and have had successful lives for the most part. But certainly we had a few who were not good people.

As for the truth, it would not surprise me either way. I think I'll reserve judgment until the case is over.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> So, rich white kids, good, poor black single mothers who strip for a living, bad? Is that the depths you are plumbing here?
> 
> ------------------


Well, leaving the matter of race and wealth out of it, I think the operative words are "who strip for a living." Frankly, I do think any woman who chooses to "strip for a living" is automatically someone of questionable character to take up an inherently sordid occupation. Virtuous women generally find other means to make their way through the world. I am sure that there are some decent women who are strippers. Many, I know from experience, can be pleasant, engaging, fun women. Most are not prostitutes, but they are part of the demi-monde and only a notch or two up from prostitutes. And, yes, I would be more inclined to accept the unanimous testimory of 45 elite college student-athletes than the charges of one stripper!


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Some observations, in no particular order:

I have to say I immediately thought of the Brawley case. Apparently the same occurred to somebody in Durham as well, as Mr. Sharpton was asked to kindly butt out.

====

I was a little taken aback at the remarks of the mostly black people in the audience at the DA's event. Several people said they felt the lacrosse players should have been immediately arrested because if if the racial roles were reversed young black men would have been arrested immediately.

That sounds to me like an endorsement of racial profiling, and has nothing to do with actual evidence.

And now a couple of players have in fact been arrested and we'll see if there's anything to it.

----

I worked for a while as a substance abuse counselor and heard a lot of stories. Before that I was a substance abuser myself. I have no difficulty envisioning a booze and drug-fueled "Girls Gone Wild" scenario that spiraled out of control. 

I also have no difficulty envisioning a liquored-up stripper waking up in a hell of a state and making up a story in desperation.

---

I hope people calm down sufficiently to look clearly at this thing, because I suspect none of the players in this drama are going to emerge looking very good.


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## Morris (Feb 13, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> Relative to the points Jimmy/DukeGrad made, the very fact that Duke is an "elite" university would indicate that these young men had to be superior students, which indicates a certain element of self-discipline and "character." Very often to get into elite colleges these days a good deal of community service is required--another selection in favor of "character." Now I am the last person to argue that educational achievement is a guarantor of good character, and I have always scoffed at the notion that sports "build character." Nonetheless, we are talking about a pretty elite segment of the young male population. As the stepfather of a 21-year-old male, I find it extremely hard to believe that our young male population has become so depraved that out of 45 elite student-athletes not a single one would protest a rape in progress and that all would maintain a strict code of silence in its aftermath.


I have had VERY close ties to Duke athletics.

You have absolutely no idea to what degree Duke's athletic department, and in particular, the men's basketball program, drives decision making at Duke (e.g., admissions, academic standing, etc.). Further, what is driving the athletic department? Money? What drives money? Winning. Now, does winning = character? Inquire about the lacrosse program's numerous incidents prior to the rape allegations.

I will not get into the "character" issues surrounding these kids except to say that the "character" of Duke's athletes is no better or worse than that of students at less than "elite" universities.

To put it bluntly, Duke has enjoyed phenomenal public relations for many years. Given recent events, its public image may be altered.

By no means am I a Duke hater. I have had personal experience at dealing with the athletic department and, unfortunately, am not surprised by recent events.

Finally, this may be anecdotal, but is it a coincidence that one of America's foremost novelists, Tom Wolfe, based "Charolette Simmons" on Duke?

-- Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Jimmy, I'm so pleased that you posted!

I started under a different user name some time ago, You helped me a lot during my early days at AAAC, and I'll always appreciate it.

As I said in an earlier post, everyone knows that this could have happened anywhere, and is not a reflection on the character of your fine school.

I wish the very best for Duke, and to you personally!

Carpe Diem


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
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> ...


Hard to leave the matter of wealth out of it, no? I doubt if she is dancing at frat parties because she likes it so much. Probably something to do with supporting her kids and paying her way through college.

Strippers are a notch or two up from prostitutes are they? Must put them way above lawyers or politicians then?

Your views on the virtue of various career choices are hardly relevant. The fact that you are naive enough to believe the testimony of someone simply because they have a rich daddy probably is.

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## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> Relative to the points Jimmy/DukeGrad made, the very fact that Duke is an "elite" university would indicate that these young men had to be superior students, which indicates a certain element of self-discipline and "character." Very often to get into elite colleges these days a good deal of community service is required--another selection in favor of "character."
> 
> ...


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

JLibourel,

I enjoyed your response to gmac, still laughing.

Intrepid, thank you.

Morris, public relations does not sell an institution.
The institution does.
I believe this is the same for a Duke, a UNC/CH, or any community college out there.


Gentlemen, nice evening.
Enjoyed, being able to vent on this.
Lagavullin 16 for me tonight.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Beresford_
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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

The college I went to won the Division II National Football Championship my sophomore year. The guys were thought of as heroes, but one was not very heroic. On the last day of my freshman year, I watched one of them drunkenly beat his girl friend. 

She was listening to me play the piano. When he came by, I figured she was trying to piss him off by sitting near me. He ordered me to keep playing. I lied, saying I needed to get some music (I can play for hundreds of hours by ear) and went and locked myself in my dorm room. I don't know how badly she was beaten, but I would not have stood a chance against him. To this day, I have wondered if I did the right thing, or if I was just a coward. At the time, I figured she was just using me to piss him off and I saw no need to get beaten to a pulp.

The point is, that many, probably not all, but many, good athletes feel a sense of entitlement and do some really awful things. 

However, I'm painfully aware of the Tawana Brawley thing, too. Once, a beautiful woman got me thrown out of a bar, just because she did not like the fact that I was fat and would not move away from her. (I was watching a couple's coat and purse at the time.)

I don't think we will ever really know the truth. This whole situation is really sad. I am reserving judgement, but don't know if there will ever be enough irrefutable testimony so we will know what really happened.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Whatever actually happened that night, this thread, the recent media coverage, the blogspots set up in support of the accuser, the presence of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton at the protests....this all says much more about state of racial and class warfare in the US than anything else. None of the actors in this scene (other than Jackson and Sharpton!) do I find automatically suspect due things such as race or class. What I do automatically suspect are supporters of either side based soley on the race, class, gender, etc. of one or more of the participants of this sorry tale.

Warmest regards


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## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

This is a game of get-******, plain and simple. It's sad that just 1 unsubstantiated allegation by annonymous black trash can turn these boys' lives upside down and cost them hundreds of thousands in legal bills. The facts will come out in the trial and prove me correct, just wait. 

It's a good lesson of why we should all avoid the kind of vice in which the Duke lacrosse team was egaging that night. The stripping industry attracts some of the most vile characters imaginable, and if you associate with them long enough, trouble will find you. Actually, most DAs Ive ever dealt with fall into the vile category as well...


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> Whatever actually happened that night, this thread, the recent media coverage, the blogspots set up in support of the accuser, the presence of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton at the protests....this all says much more about state of racial and class warfare in the US than anything else. None of the actors in this scene (other than Jackson and Sharpton!) do I find automatically suspect due things such as race or class. What I do automatically suspect are supporters of either side based soley on the race, class, gender, etc. of one or more of the participants of this sorry tale.
> 
> Warmest regards


I didn't realize Al and Jesse had made their appearances. Oh, well.

As I type, the large blonde lady with the raspy voice on MSNBC is taking a monosyllabic cab driver step-by-step through his trip with one of the suspects.

Let the jackals feast. Selah.


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

[/quote]

Finally, this may be anecdotal, but is it a coincidence that one of America's foremost novelists, Tom Wolfe, based "Charolette Simmons" on Duke?[/quote]

Tom Wolfe: Bonfire Of The Vanities. Remember the plight of Sherman McCoy? Ring a bell? (Rev. Bacon = Sharpton/Jackson ? Durham DA Nifong = BOTV Bronx DA Abe Weiss ?)

The printed public information (facts?) here in Carolina thru 4/18 has been confusing. The two arrested do not seem to be choirboys and the accuser no deb. It is my impression that there were only about 12-15 students at the house, have I missed something? The LAX team apparently has a history of behavioral "problems" on campus, indicative of arrogance. Early voting for the DA's election may have already commenced in a predominantly African-American city. And there is obviously much knee-jerk reaction on both socioeconomic sides. Stay tuned. The newsmedia will stick on this one til they can hype some real or trumped-up scandal in re Dubya.

...................................................................................................
Southern Semi-literate Rural Rustic Cou Rouge www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/********/********.html

jamgood on ebay > https://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZjamgoodQQhtZ-!


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by PennGlock_
> 
> This is a game of get-******, plain and simple. It's sad that just 1 unsubstantiated allegation by annonymous black trash can turn these boys' lives upside down and cost them hundreds of thousands in legal bills. The facts will come out in the trial and prove me correct, just wait.


The only thing proven at this point is that you are a rather dim and unpleasant bigot.

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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> Strippers are a notch or two up from prostitutes are they? Must put them way above lawyers or politicians then?


 ha!


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
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That , very well, could be what they are counting on.


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

First, I am separated from any media brouhaha by a few thousand miles.

I would have gone to Delbarton, short the ridiculous tuition. The impression I had from the faculty and alumni, is that the Jesuits there didn't stand for ungentlemanly behavior. In college, the lax team drank as much or more than anyone, but tended to be better behaved than other teams.

What it really comes down to is most definitely _not_ that we don't have enough information, but that "innocent until proven guilty" rules the day. I agree with the poster who suggested that should this turn out to be a hoax, the young lady should be prosecuted. I'm sure there will be a civil trial. Just releasing the accused in this case is not going to be enough to get their good names back.

Tom

--------------------
Death is...whimsical...today


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

Now, the basketball team has a 7 footer for next year that looks great!
I cant wait for the next T shirts that come out of the alumni office, something great always comes out of there.

VM, my friend, have been freaking busy with my work.
Nice to see you are around.

Nice day my friend


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## malinda (Aug 25, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by PennGlock_
> 
> This is a game of get-******, plain and simple. It's sad that just 1 unsubstantiated allegation by annonymous black trash can turn these boys' lives upside down and cost them hundreds of thousands in legal bills.


One doesn't have to be hypersensitive or politically correct to interpret the words you have used here as racist. Watch it. I don't want this sort of thing on the forum, and I won't tolerate it from you again.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

I agree with gmac. Strippers have the right not to be molested too. Ogled, yes. Receive catcalls and suggestive comments, yes. Abused, no. I guess nobody read my posting about the golden rule. I don't care how elite the lacrosse players are and how lowly and supposedly morally disreputable the stripper is, you don't cross the line! If the boys are truly innocent, fine. If they are guilty, punish the little darlings.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Ken,

They have not been to trial yet. You have the young lady collecting her million, and the young gentlemen, guilty.
Lets let the courts handle this, Duke will get its apology from the NY Times, ESPN, and every other creep, including Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and NCCU.
I believe the gentlemen, were guilty of breaking the drinking and party rules of the school.
I can not picture, a raping here.
I agree with JLibourel on this, his comment hits home for many.

Nice day gentlemen


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> I find it extremely hard to believe that our young male population has become so depraved that out of 45 elite student-athletes not a single one would protest a rape in progress and that all would maintain a strict code of silence in its aftermath.


I don't find it hard to belive it at all.

DukeGrad, I hear you. And yes, a person is innocent until proven guilty. If it is a hoax, then she should be punished.



> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> Well, leaving the matter of race and wealth out of it, I think the operative words are "who strip for a living." Frankly, I do think any woman who chooses to "strip for a living" is automatically someone of questionable character to take up an inherently sordid occupation. Virtuous women generally find other means to make their way through the world. I am sure that there are some decent women who are strippers. Many, I know from experience, can be pleasant, engaging, fun women. Most are not prostitutes, but they are part of the demi-monde and only a notch or two up from prostitutes. And, yes, I would be more inclined to accept the unanimous testimory of 45 elite college student-athletes than the charges of one stripper!


To suggest that these kids be given the benefit of the doubt because they are "elite" students and to look down on someone who "strips for a living" is elitist and wrong. Just my 2 cents.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by KenR_
> To suggest that these kids be given the benefit of the doubt because they are "elite" students and to look down on someone who "strips for a living" is elitist and wrong. Just my 2 cents.


Well, I thought our system was supposed to give the accused "the benefit of the doubt" if any reasonable doubt can exist. If 45 students at a fine university unanimously testify one way and a woman engaged a low, squalid and sleazy trade often connected with the criminal underworld testifies to the contrary, my inclination is very strongly to go with the majority. For that matter, I very definitely do look down on strippers, hookers, pimps, pornographers and the like. If that makes me an "elitist," then I'll proudly plead guilty as charged. (In case you hadn't noticed, a substantial streak of elitism pervades this whole forum. How many normal men are going to pay $1,000 or more for a pair of shoes if it doesn't make them feel, well, "elite"?)

Moreover--and I am going to be very politically incorrect here--I will say that if a woman does choose to enter among a crowd of drunken young males, removes all (or nearly all) her clothes and dances about suggestively, she is willingly and knowingly assuming a very considerable risk that she may encounter some sort of indignities. Does this justify her being raped? Of course not! But it does to my mind mitigate the horror of it considerably in comparison to an assault on some woman innocently going about her business. I will say that at nearly all the strip clubs I visited in my younger days--and I must confess I did enjoy them in my wayward youth--order was normally kept by some seven-foot-tall black guy who looked as if he could crush rocks in his bare hands, and I don't recall ever having seen any untoward behavior of any sort. The girlie bars always seemed like very peaceful places--everybody was too busy watching the girls to make trouble.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
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 I really wish you were right, but things look rather dim: https://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/425834.html

These young men were brought up in a culture of utter rubbish and filth, and so one might be less disinclined to believe these sort of allegations - particularly when one of the accused has authored an email such as is contained in the link. Modern Western culture is reaping what it has sown.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

KenR, I have to disagree with you again. I do not see this as being elitist. What I see is behavior of a human nature.
Whatever dictates this behavior, there are rules that guide, govern them as well.
I, also went to the girlie clubs on Hay Street at Ft Bragg.
And, yea, I had a heck of a time.
Most of the places knew my first name!
In retrosepct, was it wrong?
No!
This was an accepted behavior, for the military back then.
I am agreeing with JLibourel again, because this trial wreaks of crap.
I feel for the Durham community, Duke, all players involved, and yes, this girl.
The DA should have shut up, let his election go on, and get on with life.
I am dying to see the end result.
Duke has made some changes, gentlemen, and again, impressive ones.
My question is where did Duke go wrong?

Gentlemen, have nice day, you too Ken


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Regarding Ryan McFadyen's outrageous e-mail, I think most young men engage in silly, violent hyperbole of this sort. I certainly did:

My best friend and I at prep school would plot the murder of the entire student body, knifing them piecemeal, and sending their bodies floating down the Alamo Pintado Creek into the quaint Danish village of Solvang. Did we really want murder the entire student body? Of course not, we actually liked quite a few of the other guys there, and beyond a few fist fights, we never inflicted the least harm.

A few years before that another best friend and I would plot all sorts of tortures we wanted to inflict on kids in the neighborhood who annoyed us. He grew up to become a respected classical scholar and Jesuit priest!

My grandmother told me she used to fantasize about tortures she wanted to inflict on her teachers, and she was the gentlest of women. 

I think that's mostly just kids for you...and this is no new phenomenon.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> Regarding Ryan McFadyen's outrageous e-mail, I think most young men engage in silly, violent hyperbole of this sort. I certainly did:
> 
> ...


And they let you own guns?


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Along this topic, I asked my stepson, who is a sophmore at Cal State Long Beach, "If you were with some of your fraternity brothers or some of your other pals and one of the guys attempted to rape a woman present, even if she were a stripper, would you and some of the other guys intervene?" Very nonchalantly and matter of factly he replied, "Yeah, but it'd never happen." 

And, frankly, I doubt that James' social set at CSULB are nearly of the same high caliber as those student-athletes at Duke.

crs: They let me own guns now. I went through a certain process called "growing up," which is why we don't let minors buy guns.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> None of the actors in this scene (other than Jackson and Sharpton!) do I find automatically suspect due things such as race or class. What I do automatically suspect are supporters of either side based soley on the race, class, gender, etc. of one or more of the participants of this sorry tale.


I agree. Like Patrick, wait and see.

If these charges go away after the prosecutor (it was the prosecutor?) is re-elected, then we'll know this was a farce. If not, I'll reserve judgment until the trial.

Any girl who has been to college knows that going to a frat party by yourself is a _very very bad idea_.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> Along this topic, I asked my stepson, who is a sophmore at Cal State Long Beach, "If you were with some of your fraternity brothers or some of your other pals and one of the guys attempted to rape a woman present, even if she were a stripper,


Even if she were a stripper? Clearly you think that this young woman's profession means she is at least more eligible to be raped, if not actually deserving of it.



> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> And, frankly, I doubt that James' social set at CSULB are nearly of the same high caliber as those student-athletes at Duke.


In which way? That they don't fantasise about killing and mutilating women? Or don't get arrested for punching people because they think that person is gay?

Really, what is it that has you so enthralled by the social set at Duke? They sound like dreadful people.

Its the same with each of your posts - rich white boys at a good college, good, poor black stripper, bad and deserving of what she gets.

Quite amazing to see such attitudes in the 21st century.

------------------


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

I agree also to the wait and see idea.

I'm sure we all had our youthful indescretions. I was also a frat boy once and on more than one occasion visited strip clubs (we called it culture nite). []

But my gut feeling is that something bad happened and I can't let it go as just another "boys will be boys" thing.

DukeGrad, JLibourel and all the other guys on the other side of this debate, as gentlemen, we agree to disagree.

Regards,

Ken


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

Ken and gmac,

I dont see this as behavior of rich, white boys, and am sure this is how others feel here as well.
It is the behavior of men, as I stated above.
Referencing my prior military life.
I hope, most understand, that men do men things, in times in their lives.
I dont mean boys will be boys.
And am not using this as an excuse.
The team, the men involved, all are exhibiting behavior, that is associated with men.
I hope most of us understand this, we all want to be macho.
Me, I burned my testosterone on those girlie clubs at Ft Bragg, so we all do things differently!

This is interesting, but I do not see this as a rich white, boy thing.
Just go to the Duke web, gentlemen, and you will have a clear understanding about Duke, what it has done etc.
I apologize, if some thought I was referencing this point.


Ken, gmac, have nice day and weekend.
All you gentlemen do as well.
I am tired at what has been done to Duke, but am confident that all charges will be dropped.
I am heading to the lake, long weekend.

You all enjoy your weekends.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

We all obviously know nothing about the facts, and will have to see how they play out in a court of law.

However Jimmy, I'm not optimistic about anyone getting an apology, if no guilt is found.

Go back to Twana Brawley. Obviously a hoax, that destroyed a man's reputation, at least at the time.

After the trial, that the accused had to fund, there was never an apology from the press, or the Rev.

Carpe Diem


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I do think that a stripper, mingling unescorted amidst a group drunken young males, is, by the very nature of her activity, more likely to provoke indecent behavior among her clientele. Certainly, I am not implying she "deserves" to be raped. Were I to be present and witnessed such an outrage starting to take place, I would most certainly intervene, and I presume any halfway decent man, young or old, would do the same.

That there may be some bad eggs among the Duke lacrosse team, I can't dispute. In any aggregation of 45 men, you are going to find some stinkers. However, at the risk of being repetitive I do find it hard to believe that all 45 young men--superior students and with the discipline to become fine athletes and accepted by a prestigious university--would make themselves complicit in such an outrage. If this is the case and American manhood has sunk to such a debased level, then maybe Al Quaeda & Co. are right to want to blow us off the face of the map!

Moreover, the Duke lacrosse team was not all white. There was one black youth on the team. We haven't heard from him. Would he also be willing to maintain complicity in such an outrage perpetrated by white boys against a "sista"? In an ideal world, blood and race shouldn't count, but they do! I would certainly do my best to intervene if white men were trying to commit an outrage against a black woman, but if I witnessed the reverse and it were black men assaulting a white woman, my visceral horror and outrage would be even greater, I must confess. If this makes me a wicked racist, so be it, but I think it is human nature to identify more with your own kind, especially in matters like this.

Finally, while it may fit a left-wing weltanschauung to assume that the black stripper was "poor," do we for a fact know that? There's plenty of good money--dirty money, if you will--but often plenty of it in stripping. Back when I used to frequent strip clubs years ago, the girls would often be buying houses or going on lengthy vacations--something I couldn't have dreamed of at the time (or now). Remember, you can get away with underreporting a lot of those tips (all cash) to the IRS, I'm sure. I wouldn't be in the least surprised to learn that the "poor, black stripper" in question was netting a good deal more than this poor, old, white gun editor!


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If this was a group of Black men accused of the the crime I honestly believe you would be singing a different song. I have no opinion on the case until the trail is over, I'll trust that the justice system will do right by the community. One thing this shows is that America is still deeply racist and unfortunatly it has seams to reared it's head even here on this forum of above average men, i.e PennGlock. I personally would be equally offened seeing any group of men rape any women, somethings should just transcend race.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Actually, I may have come across more "racist" than I intended in my above post, for which my apologies. On reflection, if I saw a lovely, exquisite black woman on the order of Tyra Banks being assaulted by coarse, brutal white men, I would certainly find it more viscerally horrifying than some slatternly white barroom trull being set upon by black men. Intellectually, I deplore all rape equally. Viscerally, I think some rape cases affect us more than others.

As to the question of whether we would be "singing a different tune" if a lone white girl had chosen to dance around naked (or nearly so) among a crowd of 45 drunken black men (or 44 black men and one white man, to keep the analogy exact), it is my belief that she would get LESS public sympathy--and this is no doubt indicative of the endemic racism in American society--because most people would regard her as a complete idiot! Look at at the venom and vitriol that was spilled against the white accuser of Kobe Bryant because she had placed herself in a somewhat compromising situation with a beloved black athlete before accusing him of rape!


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Duke Grad- Funny we should see each other on this thread...Anyway, I was on Hays street as well. The Suzie Wong Club, The Flaming Mug, Seven Dwarfs, Pop a Top Lounge...I even took some comfort on the street. "How 'bout a date, GI?" It's payday and I'm an enlisted paratrooper from Gruber Road. "A date? You bet. There's not a woman within 100 miles of Ft Bragg that'll sleep with me for free. And I got 50 bucks." 

Always, always I behaved and treated these women with the utmost respect. Can a prostitute be raped? You bet she can and the cretin that does it should go to jail. 

Do atheletes in big universities have a "entitlement" thing going on? Many do. Hell, they've had the entitlement thing going on for most of their athletic lives. I don't know what really happened and unless the stripper and / or the Lacrosee players are posting on this thread...neither do any of us. Lets just all hope the truth comes out.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> Moreover, the Duke lacrosse team was not all white. There was one black youth on the team. We haven't heard from him.


Newsday says he briefly attended the party but was gone by the time of the alleged incident:

https://www.newsday.com/sports/lacr...19,0,7656291.story?coll=ny-lacrosse-headlines


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

TinTin, Airborne my friend. You are right. But I do not think that is the case here, we have to see.

I have been enjoying JLibourels writings here. And laughing. He writes nicely, and simply points out the obvious, when push comes to shove.
It has been fun reading.I am up early, on my way to the gym.
Was hoping to check in here, get permission to go about my business from Andy.
I wanted to point out, read Slade online yesterday.
Great article, "Trial by the Papers"
This is what I have noted about the post. Slade talks about this very nicely. 
I am not a Post fan, never was, especially now.

Tin Tin The flaming mug, that goes back to my heyday!
LOL

You have a nice weekend, my friend.

Gentlemen, you all do the same


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

I may be going out on a limb here, but I think this case is a non-event. I do hope the two accused European-American boys will be acquitted. The real outrage here, which nobody seems to want to talk about, is the epidemic of black-on-white rapes. I recently saw one FBI statistic indicating there are something like *17,000 rapes * per year perpetrated by black men against white women. That is the real scandal. But as always, _we are not supposed to talk about it_. Instead, we are subjected to yet another orgy of ugly hatemongering by the "Let's Get ******!" crowd.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kobe's situation isn't analogous to many people situations Black or white, he rich and has the power to influence people. Now what if Howard's Basketball team was accused of raping a white women? And say that they were all fourth generation students there, from families of doctors and other professionals, would you be so quick to give them the benefit of the doubt? Maybe you would, but not most of America. White women victims always get better coverage than others. It's not really all that racist, most of the country is white and as you said it's easier to identify with your own kind. I do agree that a stripper getting raped garners far less sympathy than most, and honestly I'm not sure if she deserves as much sympathy, it's a risk associated with the job.

Old Brompton, you always amuse. European American? Why do you hope they'll be acquitted, simply because they are white? Also where is this get ****** crowd you speak of? I haven't saw one post saying that the boys are guilty and should go to jail much less one criticizing the white race.

( edited for)All in all I do hope the situation ends up with justice being serve. Either her being incarcerated for lying or the boys for rape.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Old Brompton_
> 
> I may be going out on a limb here, but I think this case is a non-event. I do hope the two accused European-American boys will be acquitted. The real outrage here, which nobody seems to want to talk about, is the epidemic of black-on-white rapes. I recently saw one FBI statistic indicating there are something like *17,000 rapes * per year perpetrated by black men against white women. That is the real scandal. But as always, _we are not supposed to talk about it_. Instead, we are subjected to yet another orgy of ugly hatemongering by the "Let's Get ******!" crowd.


What brand of white sheet do you wear?


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> However, at the risk of being repetitive I do find it hard to believe that all 45 young men--superior students and with the discipline to become fine athletes and accepted by a prestigious university--would make themselves complicit in such an outrage.


My experience from college has been that the athletes are not "superior students," not even close. Kobe Bryant and Mike Tyson also had the discipline to become fine athletes, but not the discipline to refrain from involving themselves in inappropriate sexual behavior.

That having been said, these boys are innocent until proven guilty and I give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Sounds as though this is going to be a real mess, even over what it was at the beginning. We have a very active set of defense lawyers sowing doubt with the public, a colleague of the stripper whose story is already changing, etc.

Frankly, nothing would surprise me about the truth if it ever does become known. There is always room for a Tawana Brawley to chisel a little personal advantage from a racially charged situation. And the behavior of athletes who engage in high-risk sports can be pretty outrageous. Add in the _esprit de corps _ factor and the raging sense of entitlement that often comes with winning the equivalent of several consecutive lotteries (good school, elite college, prestigious varsity squad) and I can easily see a lot of kids banding together so a disreputable black woman doesn't keep them from the good life that they've come to expect. Doesn't mean that this is what is happening, but it is totally plausible.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

And since I suspect not all of you subscribe to Salon:

Crypto-hookers, eyeshadow wearers and the "second stripper"

The media frenzy around the gang-rape allegations at Duke just keeps on raging, and various pundits across the land have been letting the case reinforce their preconceptions about American powder-keg issues like race, class, gender and sexuality. (Don't miss this "Daily Show" via Video Dog roundup of Fox's tone-deaf coverage of the incident.) 

Tucker Carlson -- rakishly sans bow tie -- has been sounding off on the sex and gender issues, saying that "it's OK to have a bias against strippers in this case," because the plaintiff's "testimony about matters of sex is to be taken by ordinary commonsense people a little differently than the testimony of someone who isn't a crypto-hooker." (If you read the whole transcript, he comes off as even more slimy and offensive than this snippet conveys, while his guest, adjunct law professor Wendy Murphy, endears herself to me forever by snarking back, "When you say things out loud like that, do you hear yourself? Do you go home and -- like, do you just bang your head on the wall?") 

Over at the Huffington Post on Thursday, RJ Eskow rather brilliantly gave Carlson's comments the Colbert treatment, in the form of an open letter addressed to T.C. "Awesome point!" Eskow applauded. "Could you please write me back and tell me what other jobs make a woman's testimony easy to ignore?... I'm a little confused about this Duke thing: Is this chick's word useless because she 'dances naked' in front of strangers, or because she 'sleeps with strangers,' or both? (I hadn't heard that she actually sleeps with them, but you're on TV so you must know.) I mean, if a lap dancer and I have a little, um, scuffle, will I be able to beat the charges because it's my word against hers -- or does she have to screw around a lot too? ... How about that girl at Starbucks who wears a lot of eye shadow?" Eskow's spoof is a little queasy-making, but it gets us to the logical conclusion of Carlson's argument: Any woman's conduct may obviate her right to refuse sex. 

Meanwhile, in today's New York Times, Harvey Araton brings (subscription required) a somewhat subtler style of inquiry to the class problem. I'm not sold on his argument that calling the lacrosse team members privileged preppies is as simplistic and misplaced as accusing African-American males of crimes based on their skin color. More persuasive, though, is Araton's suggestion that the problem isnâ€™t wealth but the overindulgence of athletes: "If growing up privileged (read: pampered to the point of being poisoned) explains what set the wheels of this sad story in motion," he wonders, "what, then, is the social genesis when the perpetrators are basketball and football players from poor or working-class homes?" 

Also going on the record this week was Kim Roberts, whom the AP identifies as the "second stripper" at the lacrosse team party at the time of the alleged incident. Roberts commented on the case, and then various attorneys commented on her comments. 

"I was not in the bathroom when it happened, so I can't say a rape occurred -- and I never will," Roberts told the AP. But, she added, "In all honesty, I think they're guilty. And I can't say which ones are guilty. Somebody did something besides underage drinking. That's my honest-to-God impression." She also confirmed that the two women initially left the party "after one of the players threatened to sodomize them with a broomstick," the AP says. Defense attorneys in the case countered that Roberts initially told them she didn't believe that a rape had occurred, was probably being paid to reverse her opinion, and anyway may just be trying to "gain favorable treatment" in an unrelated criminal case against her. 

I'm really hoping the trial proceedings manage to set aside meta-issue and character debates like these -- for both the plaintiff and the defendants -- but I'm not optimistic. 

-- Page Rockwell


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> Gentlemen,
> 
> Miss you all


It's about darned time you came back.

We missed you too Jimmy.

Good day, gentle man.... hope all is well with you

www.carlofranco.com
Handmade Seven Fold Ties


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## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

Edited: Removed post


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

It is obviously necessary to set this case aside, for the present.

However, it isn't just immature young men that get in situations that they shouldn't. The well documented cases involving a former GE Chairman, Kobe Bryant, and a former President seem to illustrate the point that the male anatomy posesses an adequate blood supply for both the brain and the penis to function. Not simultaneously, however.

Carpe Diem


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by PennGlock_
> 
> Edited: Removed post


Changed opinion? Or just realised that being a bigot doesn't look so good?

------------------


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## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No. It was a well-written post explaining why I dont adhere to PC double standards when talking about race. I related some encounters where I have experienced _real_ racism, and tried to show how that differs taboo language that would be acceptable if it were used on white people. Racial relations in this country have suffered because it's okay to label anyone challenging the status-que racist.

I also talked about how holding blacks to lower standards has really wrecked my self-confidence at several points in my life. Kids here at my school can't help but wonder if Im actually their intellectual peer of if Im just here to increase their "ethnic experience." This summer I'll be working at a very selective internship, and their is a very good chance I was hired over some white classmates with better credentials, because this firm wants some color in the workplace. Im sick of the liberal attitude of wanting to be a friend to blacks, and proving how absolutely _worldly_ they are by making things easier on us.

Two sets of standards has the effect of cheaping everything good black people accomplish, and creates a palpable resentment in the rest of the population. I refuse to contribute to any of this resentment by demonizing everyone who speaks critically of blacks. You're mad at me because I called a prostitute-stripper trash? Im racist because I criticized the knee-jerk reaction on the Durham black community who had these Duke boys tried and convicted in their minds despite 0 evidence other than their skin color? You're not being a friend to black people by painting everyone critical of blacks as a bigot. That's all I feel like saying for now.

The entire post was just a little more personal than I was confortable posting on the internet, so I took it down.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by PennGlock_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't really know what this has to do with the way people reacted to your "black trash" remark. You didn't say stripper trash, if you make a comment including race in concert with trash then you should expect a negative reaction.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Intrepid_
> 
> It is obviously necessary to set this case aside, for the present.
> 
> ...


Hear, hear. Well said.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

PennGlock: Excellent post. Quite obviously from the heart. I salute you for your frankness.

Those others of you who are expounding theories might do well to listen to a bit of the reality.

Gmac: Why don't you cool your talking points long enough to read what the man said. Perhaps when you take your foot out of your mouth you will - just for once - be strong enough to offer an apology.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

PennGlock - Wish your email addy wasn't hidden.

You have no control over the insulting and demeaning 'soft racism' of those who might be inclined to believe that you require thier help to compete.

If I may be so bold as to offer a thought to you - show up before the other interns, leave after them, outwork them while you are there together and then spend the next 20 years exceeding their accomplishments. I admire your attitude. A good friend of mine in Grad School was very upset when he beat me out for an internship under similar circumstances. Truth be told they made the right hire - he's a CTO now and has spent the last 15 years outworking and out-thinking his peers. I'm pretty sure that the $3M house he recently purchased was not through a special program to increase minority home ownership but I'll call him tomorrow and ask - that ought to get me a good 15 minute cussing out without having to wake Kabbaz  I'm sure I will learn at least a dozen derogatory terms for middle aged white guys that I am as yet unfamiliar with, ought to be entertaining. I really don't think he would have been so successful had not a few charitably minded white folks made the mistake of thinking he needed any sort of head start to leave them in his wake.

Good luck, take no prisoners and win on your own. Meanwhile never be stupid enough to turn down an opportunity given to you (and your wife and children, whether you have them yet or not) just because some dumbass thinks he needs to give you a break. Just take his job and then hire whomever you think is the best choice to replace you. I've watched a friend do that with great amusement - his amusement and mine.

Give'm hell and if you get a minute this fall, write me and let me know how the internship turned out. None of my damned business but I'm interested because I am essentially nosy and annoyingly extroverted.

Best,
Chuck

www.carlofranco.com
Handmade Seven Fold Ties


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## Preston (Aug 8, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> So, rich white kids, good, poor black single mothers who strip for a living, bad? Is that the depths you are plumbing here?


gmac, you are a very bitter, angry young man. I've read your posts for months now, and the tone rarely wavers.

I do hope that you will find peace in your life.

I think that any civilized human being, which would include most of the gentlemen here, would view rape as a horrible thing. I can't think of anything worse happening to the women in my life - despite their color, occupation, or socioeconomic station in life.

But are you saying that you do not believe that groups of people with varying demographic profiles can be expected to behave in a particular way? This does not mean, of course, that they all do. That would be ridiculous. But to deny statistically significant trends would be very naive. Agree?

Please try to respond without sarcasm or vitriol for once. This is a legitimate question.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> 
> Gmac: Why don't you cool your talking points long enough to read what the man said. Perhaps when you take your foot out of your mouth you will - just for once - be strong enough to offer an apology.


An apology? For what? He's the one getting warned about racism.

------------------


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## jcbmath (Jan 11, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> Regarding Ryan McFadyen's outrageous e-mail, I think most young men engage in silly, violent hyperbole of this sort. I certainly did:
> 
> ...


Wow. In the post-columbine world, they would have locked you up for sure!


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Preston_
> 
> Please try to respond without sarcasm or vitriol for once. This is a legitimate question.


A wee bit rich you asking me to reply without vitriol after you have just taken a pop at me, no?

As for me being bitter and angry, its true, you have seen deep into my soul and seen the pain which drives me to mock bigots and right wingers on internet fora. Thank god I can finally admit it.

------------------


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## Preston (Aug 8, 2003)

I suppose it is the sarcasm that diminishes the possibility of gentlemanly repartee. I'm not sure what you found so caustic about my own post, but I apologize nonetheless. I suppose I should edit it to say that you SEEM to be an angry, bitter young man. Perhaps I'm wrong. But for you to call one a bigot, without condition, is a very vituperative accusation, no? Is it not also a form of bigotry to assume that certain groups need special assistance and special exceptions made for them just because of their color? gender? etc?

I don't want to derail this into a thread about race. I think it's only fair, though, to ask you to respond to sincere questions without the thick sarcasm, which does nothing to pave the way for reconciling differences we all have in society.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Hey I have an idea.

Let's agree that when a man FORCIBLY rapes a woman he should be castrated in the public square. Later if someone wants to comment on the pigmentation level of the offending organ so be it. As for me I'll just kinda stick with the "Men who forcibly rape or otherwise brutalize women should be publicly beaten and then hanged' philosophy I have arrived at over the past 30-something years.

...reason number 872 why Chuck is not in charge

www.carlofranco.com
Handmade Seven Fold Ties


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## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

GMAC...You crack me up. There are times when you drive your point home and entertain at the same time. I hope you don't stop.

Cheers
TheSaint


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by PennGlock_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Intrepid_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Regardless of racial content, it seems that academia is predominately liberal, however, this is changing from the student level upwards. In the 50s, the faculty was conservative, and the students were all Marxists. It has now flipped 180 degrees.

Regarding Belafonte, it doesn't seem like a black against black issue. It seems to be the strategy that any black that strays from the liberal plantation must be destroyed. If that voting block no longer remains monolithic, then it once again becomes a contest of competing ideas.You will probably find that Belafonte was simply the tool that was used for this purpose. Teddy Kennedy couldn't be used to call these individuals "house slaves".

Watch what happens to Len Swann in his campaign for Governor of Pennsylvania, as a Republican.



Carpe Diem


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

This thread is taking on a life of it's own and seems to be headed in some negative directions. Let's take a step back and stop making enemies instead of friends in this forum. We do purport, after all, to be gentlemen.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by KenR_
> 
> This thread is taking on a life of it's own and seems to be headed in some negative directions. Let's take a step back and stop making enemies instead of friends in this forum. We do purport, after all, to be gentlemen.


I disagree. With the exception of GMAC and The Saint (now there's a surprise), everyone seems to be having a gentlemanly discussion.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

My goodness....Just because I happen to enjoy one members post. (Actually enjoy quite a few members posts). Now I am a controversial poster.

This thread definitely got hijacked.
Kind of thought it would focus on violence against women which transcends all races.

Can't wait to come back home (United States) soon!
Beginning to talk with a British Accent now.

Cheers
TheSaint


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> I disagree. With the exception of GMAC and The Saint (now there's a surprise), everyone seems to be having a gentlemanly discussion.


So, now simply agreeing with me is enough to earn the Kabbaz curse for The Saint?

Fair enough, but don't expect anyone to take your claims of looking for a "gentlemanly discussion" too seriously. Clearly anyone who dares disagree with you earns your oh-so-serious wrath.

Daft.

------------------


----------



## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by malinda_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Preston, I'll let you judge on whether you think Malinda is unfairly accusing Pennglock of racism.

------------------


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Preston_ Is it not also a form of bigotry to assume that certain groups need special assistance and special exceptions made for them just because of their color? gender? etc?


I suppose it would be but I've never suggesetd anything of the kind so the question is rather moot.



> quote:_Originally posted by Preston_
> I suppose I should edit it to say that you SEEM to be an angry, bitter young man. Perhaps I'm wrong.


You are. I'm not that young.

------------------


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by CarloFranco_
> 
> Hey I have an idea.
> 
> ...


I kind of think there are wide differences of degrees of "rape." Certainly, the sort of cases where a man breaks into a woman's home, drags her at knifepoint behind a bush in the park or jumps her in a darkened parking lot are vicious, heinous crimes that should be punished with great severity. I am sure we are all in agreement about that.

However, the case of "acquaintance rape" is often a much more murky area: If a woman gets naked in bed with a man and engages in heavy sex play or actually starts having intercourse with the man and then has second thoughts about it, but he goes ahead and does the deed*, I think the circumstances are mitigating enough that I don't think he should be charged with a crime. The idea of "justifiable rape" would probably drive most feminists throught the roof, but I think the concept has some merit. Here in California, the law was recently amended to ensure that a man who continues for a bit after his partner has said something like, "Oh, stop, I'm getting sore!" is every bit as guilty of rape as the knife-to-the-throat, drag-behind-a-bush variety of rapist. This strikes me as absurd, but about what you can expect from our legislature here in the People's Republic of California.

*If you think these examples are far-fetched, both happened to me. No, I didn't "do the the deed," but I felt like sort of an emasculated wimp afterwards for not having done so!

One is left to wonder in the Duke case whether the stripper in question was doing more than just dancing around--some sort of full-contact lap dancing or something of that sort--and things went a just a little further than she had bargained for.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by TheSaint_
> 
> My goodness....Just because I happen to enjoy one members post. (Actually enjoy quite a few members posts). Now I am a controversial poster.
> 
> ...


 As I said, your support of GMAC's knee-jerk response was quite a surprise. This reply is also surprising.

Edit:Spelling

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

Kabbaz....***Yawn***...Lighten Up Sport.

JLibourel....NO MEANS NO....END OF STORY...


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

As far as I can see, the NY Post has everyone thinking rape, rich white male/poor black girls etc, etc.
As far as I can see, the only thing that has happened, is underage drinking. 
Again, the press has turned this into a freaking mess. I never saw this at Duke, nor my son. The climate there is rewarding, not what you are reading. Let this go through the courts.
Again, read Slades article online, very, very good.
Now, back to hoop!!

Nice day my friends


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## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

I never saw this at DUKE either.....Very dissapointing....
I loved it there.
As far as I know, I never heard anything happen with DUKE Basketball Team. Then again, if I recall correctly, Coach K runs a tight ship.

Hoops YES!!!
NFL Draft..YES!!!


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

TheSaint

LOL, K runs a tight ship that is for sure.
Isn't this sad. The Post has been ridiculous on this one, makes me wonder if the editor is a Carolina grad?
As well as ESPN and a couple others.
It will come out in the trials, if it gets there.

Have nice day


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

I read a piece on this today which gave a very brief comparison on the basketball and lacrosse team's behaviours.

The basketball players are provided with tutors, mentors and some sort of chaperone figure. The lacrosse guys are left to their own devices. Apparently the coach had been previously warned about his charge's behaviour but had failed to rein them in.

15 of the 47 members of the lacrosse team have recieved police citations for anti-social behaviour - underage drinking, public urination, etc. Hardly model citizens.

None of which makes any of them a rapist. In fact, reading a little more about the case it becomes to seem unlikely that the two young men charged could have commited the crime. But that will be for the courts to decide.

Regarding who 'deserves' to get raped, no does indeed mean no. In cases of date rape I believe the difficulty is in establishing what actually happened. If it is established beyond reasonable doubt that non-consensual sex occured then it's a rape. Mitigating circumstances may exist but that does not lessen the charge.

In the Duke case there does not seem to be any sugestion that sex acts were agreed upon or entered into consensually. Agreeing to dance in your underwear for a few hundred bucks does not imply agreement to being sodomized with a broom handle and beaten. We'll find out in due course if that is what actually happened.

------------------


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by TheSaint_
> 
> JLibourel....NO MEANS NO....END OF STORY...


Oh, I don't know about that: If it is spoken sharply and firmly, yeah. If, on the other hand, it were moaned, sighed or gasped as a polysyllablic "No-o-o-oh," I think I'd keep pressing the issue![}]

Of course, this is all theoretical now! I am too old, too tired and too married to be much concerned about such matters these days!


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

gmac The basketball team brings a lot of money in to the school, a great deal of money.
First, who got raped. Your suggestion of this states that the crime was a done deal.As far as I can see, there has not been a court hearing yet.
Also, underage drinking, this and that; my friend we could go on all day.
Every campus has a drinking problem, in some persons eyes. It depends on what side of the tracks you grew up on. Is the drinking right, or wrong. Who makes this decision? I was in the military, 18 was the drinking age. There were troops who could not drink, 17yo. Yet, they can patrol the jungles of Vietnam. You state, 15 of the Lacrosse team had citations for anti social behavior, so what. What is you point.
My A detachment, all 12 of us drank, we were not very sociable people in your eyes. Especially after a long day in the bush.
My question, what does all of this have to do with Duke basketball?


Nice day gentlemen


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

I was responding to The Saint who mentioned the Duke basketball team. It seemed a valid comparison.

I referred to the anti-social behaviour of the lacrosse players as JLibourel has more than once suggested that these are young men of outstanding character. The evidence points otherwise, at least in the case of about one third of them.

Any reading of my last post will obviously show that I _do not_ regard this as a done deal and that the courts will decide what actually happened. I suggest you re-read my post because it seems pretty clear on that point.

------------------


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

GMAC

I understand now, you think they were anti-social. This is fine.
I think they are cool. They had a party, and drank.
I see nothing wrong with their behavior.
Others may think differently.
My question, have you played sports at this level? Do you understand the committment to the sport? The hours given, on top of academics? This is no excuse, but maybe a burning desire to want to party, and drink, happens to a lot of us.
I know what it is like sometimes, especialy after a hard day on the AA forums, I just want to go home and drink!

Nice day gmac, I see your point. You feel the behavior was wrong. Maybe so.
Not myself, I see a normal male, in college.
Again, no rape has been determined.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Color completely aside, if a white stripper had made the same accusations, I don't think the reactions here would be any different.

A friend of mine is an SVU police detective (he investigates sex crimes) and there are a great deal of false accusations as well as real ones.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

gmac, I want to apologize to you. I always get into a spin,when behavior is discussed. Because this, is academic.
It is an opinion, and that is it. And there are a lot of various opinions here. Mine, for instance. I, because of my background, am very open.
I guess, very understanding of things as well.

Anyway, have nice day.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> Gentlemen
> 
> ...


The apology is appreciated but quite unnecesary.

No, I haven't played sports at the level of the Duke lacrosse team although I played soccer and golf to varsity level (varsity sports in the UK gain nothing like the attention or cash generated in the USA and are not seen as a path to the pros).

I'm not saying that young men won't drink - we all know that is not the case. However, the Duke lacrosse boys seem to have gone beyond a few beers with their buddies into some pretty anti social behaviour, in contrast to the basketball players.

I don't know anything about Duke other than it is elite and expensive. I don't have an opinion other than what I have learned recently. My original purpose in posting on this thread was to counter some of the overtly racist and sexist comments being made - people describing the stripper as "black trash" and making excuses for any rape that may have taken place due to the woman's job.

------------------


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

gmac

I understand, and those comments will go on forever, the racist and sexist, more so than the Duke lacrosse team!
At least you educate someone about them. When the situation comes up.
Have a nice day gmac.
And evening,


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## In Mufti (Jan 28, 2005)

Iâ€™ve got to honest; I donâ€™t have a great deal of sympathy for any of the people involved in this mess. 

First, some reality on the victim: The â€œvictimâ€ works for an â€œescort agency.â€ These are very thinly veiled covers for prostitution rings. These â€œescort agenciesâ€ are all run by organized crimeâ€”Italian, Russian, Koreanâ€”whateverâ€”they are all bad juju. I have been at parties where these â€œdancersâ€ have been hired. They all made it clear that after they were done dancing; they were available for other endeavorsâ€”if the price was right. In addition to sex, their â€œdriversâ€ usually have drugs for sale too. Donâ€™t give me the â€œI had to do this to feed my kidâ€ sob story. Most single mothersâ€”black, white, whateverâ€”support their kids by working very hard in legal and reputable jobs. There is never an excuse for a woman to become a prostitute. The â€œmothersâ€ who feel compelled to become â€œsex workersâ€ are usually supporting a serious drug habit that dwarfs anything their kids might cost. Gents, the only place you will find a â€œhooker with a heart of goldâ€ is in the movies. This is the darkest of all worlds and any woman who gets involved in it is going to come to tragedy sooner or later. Both those women at that party were knowingly part of a criminal endeavor and Iâ€™m sure this wasnâ€™t the first time either of them have ended up in dangerâ€”although usually it is from the â€œmanagementâ€ of the escort service. That is the real world of â€œescort/massage/exotic dancer agencies.â€ Itâ€™s a bad dark businessâ€”no good comes of it. For the women involved, the results are always the same eventuallyâ€”itâ€™s just a matter of who and when. Thatâ€™s not right, but it is a fact of life in the real world.

Now for the Lacrosse Team: A bunch of sheltered little boys who think theyâ€™re men. This is a risk college athletes run. They start to think they are pretty tough guys because they can push around the docile other kids on the campus. Eventually they get a little too cocky and start thinking they can handle the real rough and tumble street life outside the campusâ€”this usually ends very badly. Iâ€™ll bet these boys have been watching too much Sopranos on HBO. Beyond the walls of college campuses, there are people who are so much tougher, meaner and more brutal than this bunch of silly boys ever imagined. They are learning a very hard lesson: â€œLife is tough; itâ€™s tougher when youâ€™re stupid.â€ If you bring a bunch of strippers into your homeâ€”you are asking for a whole bunch of grown-up trouble. Any body who REALLY had been around would have known better. They are trying to imitate what they think tough guys doâ€”strippers, getting drunkâ€”being a pain in everybodyâ€™s *ss. As for the guys who are innocentâ€”theyâ€™re learning a real manâ€™s lesson tooâ€”life isnâ€™t fair. If you hang around with idiots, youâ€™ll probably get burned too even if you didnâ€™t really do anything wrong. Stupidity attracts trouble and the blast radius is pretty wide. If, in fact, one of these guys raped a woman, then he should go to prison for a very long time. Welcome to real tough guy land sonny boy.

Now for Duke U: My alma mater had a number of scandals while I was a student. They usually were the result of escalating problems that the faculty and staff refused to deal with until they hit critical mass and blew up in everybodyâ€™s face. Not one of the scandals was a real surprise to the students or the faculty. This team has been a disaster in the making for a long time from everything I have read. College students are really no more mature than high school kidsâ€”their address has just changed. If Duke wants to avoid scandal, they eed to exercise some adult leadership. Some heads need to roll in the athletic departmentâ€”big time. It looks like some of the coaching staff needs some â€œgrown upâ€ lessons too.

What a mess.


Regards,


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by In Mufti_
> 
> Iâ€™ve got to honest; I donâ€™t have a great deal of sympathy for any of the people involved in this mess.
> 
> ...


I'll agree with this


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I, too, agree with most of what Mufti says.

The "victim" is no paragon of innocence AND the guys are jerks. 

Everyone involved here was borrowing trouble. 

I doubt we'll ever know what the truth really was, and because of the alcohol, no one, even if they were there may know everything that really happened.

Truly a mess - - - -


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> 
> The "victim" is no paragon of innocence


The point is that that doesn't matter. You don't get to rape people because you don't like their morals.

I don't care if she has had sex with every guy in the country, when she says _*no*_ it means she probably doesn't want to be choked, beaten or sodomized with a broom handle - and if you go ahead and do it anyway then you are a criminal who deserves the full punishment available.

------------------


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I agree with you, Gmac.

It's just that it's really difficult to know who is guilty and who isn't. Even the court trial probably really won't bring it out.

It is totally wrong for anyone to touch her in any way without her permission. 

However, she did expose herself to a situation where the possibility existed. Still, no one should touch her. But I certainly would not recommend to my (very mature and very sensible) 20 year old niece that she put herself in that situation repeatedly and never expect trouble.

If she was raped, the boy or boys who did it deserve to be punished.

The unfortunate thing is that the trial "winner" will be the lawyer who is most skilled at manipulating and selling his case. 

The "truth" will have little to do with what happens from here on out.


Th


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

In this case the facts are certainly very murky indeed.

The stripper(s) did seem foolish to enter a sitaution without some sort of security where there would be up to 50 drunken young men. Certainly any bachelor party I've been at there has been a pretty fearsome looking fellow who hasn't had to do much except look scary to keep order.

It's already well under way with the lawyers selling their cases. Ain't going to be pretty......

------------------


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Very interesting post, In Mufti. You made many of the points I was trying to make about strippers, etc., more eloquently and in more detail.

Your post suggests to me that there may be a qualitative difference between the girls who work in clubs and those who do "outcall" assignments like the putative victim in this case. Back when I used to frequent the girlie bars, I was a "regular" at a number of joints, a fairly generous tipper and on cordial terms with quite a few dancers. None ever so much as hinted to me that she might be available for sexual services for a price. One of my favorites (a cute little redhead) remarked to me once, "I've been in this business for 10 years now, and I've known a LOT of girls. In all that time, I've known only three who did that sort of thing. Besides, if I wanted to hook, I wouldn't be spending all my nights dancing, I'd be out hooking...probably make more money that way." Of course, this was all about 30 years ago. Maybe things are different today.

As to "hookers with a heart of gold," after considerable research into this topic in my wilder days, I am convinced that a very few do indeed exist, but the percentage is very small.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

It's not Duke. It's not rich v. poor. It's not black v. white. It's that we live in a depraved society which, increasingly, treats women like meat (watched MTV lately?). You can see the early manifestations of the mentality here:

https://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06116/685098-55.stm

While women have greater sexual freedoms today, they also face greater sexual expectations as a result and at an earlier age, i.e, there's not much social pressure for a girl to say "no" and in fact, it runs exactly contrary. So much of movies, videos, music, send the same message - women are here for men to enjoy.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

"Women are here for men to enjoy." Well, aren't they? The converse of that is, "Men are here for women to bleed white financially," so it kind of evens out in the long run!


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## tslinc (Nov 11, 2005)

I'll stay away from this controversial topic and just say how good it is to have Jimmy back.

"All the way" and "Beat Dook"!



> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> gmac
> 
> ...


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

terryslnc,

LOL, Airborne to you!

Nice day my friend

And to all of you.


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## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

My unscientific observations in college (and I went to a very well known school on par with Duke academically (undergrad) and stronger than Duke in athletics) and a disproportionately higher percentage of male varsity athletes in physical sports like lacrosse, football, hockey and rugby think they are macho tough guys who can do whatever they want. Put a few beers in them and they turn into abnoxious pigs. 

Whether these guys were guilty or not, I have no idea and the players deserve fair due process. 

If I could place a bet, I would wager a lot of money that the players involved have two faces: model citizens to their parents and in front of "audiences" and complete jerks around other students and in social situations and when the cameras are not rolling and the beer is flowing. 

Are their individual exceptions to this? Absolutely. 

Anyone who disagrees with this is naive. 





Wet my beak.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

As an update, the NY Times had an article today, stating that the medical tests had come back showing that the young woman in question had sexual relations on the night of the alledged incident.

Tht article further went on to report that the DNA of all of the young men tested did not match the results of the tests of the young woman in question.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

The DNA is that of a Carolina grad!
They just found out

Nice day my friends


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Just thought I'd revive this lengthy and acrimonious thread to point out that it now appears the prosecutorial misconduct in suppressing exculpatory DNA evidence in this case is even more egregious than previously supposed. I hope the prosecutor goes to jail for his role and/or gets the pants sued off him by the young men whose lives he has been striving to ruin!


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Gentlemen*

Wow!

Where this one come from. I knew from the beginning, and now it is coming to the end of this thing.
This lawyer should end this as soon as he can.Just quit.
I still can not get a Duke Lacrosse sweatshirt.
Plenty of basketball but no lacrosse.

Have a nice day my friend


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

DukeGrad said:


> Wow!
> 
> Where this one come from. I knew from the beginning, and now it is coming to the end of this thing.
> This lawyer should end this as soon as he can.Just quit.
> ...


I checked every lacrosse store I know of, but I didn't see any sweatshirts this year. Here are a couple of Duke Lacrosse T-shirts though.

https://www.bacharach.com/IWCatProd..._Id=1&Section_Id=31&pcount=&Product_Id=255906

https://www.collegegear.com/sf/stores/1033/g-duke_lacrosse.shtml


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Gentlemen*

Laxplayer,

Thank you!
LOL

Have a nice day gentlemen
And an early Merry Xmas


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## Richie_G (Jun 19, 2006)

DukeGrad said:


> Gentlemen
> 
> The DNA is that of a Carolina grad!
> They just found out
> ...


 Are you saying a Carolina grad raped the girl or just had sex with the girl?


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Richie_G*

I am sorry, just had sex with her

Nice day my friend


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*DA drops charges!!*

Gentlemen

Was in the chronicle, Dukes school paper, and got a message, that the DA, Nifong dropped the charges.
I think he is still looking at sexual harrassment charges?
Go figure, that is a no brainer.
He is getting too much pressure.
Especially if Dept. of Justice gets into this.
Anyway, nice Christmas present!!

Merry Xmas


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Some great news. 

It was ridiculous it has gotten this far. I wonder what evidence exists for the other charges or if it's just face saving BS.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Artisan Fan*

I agree with you, just saving face.
What an idiot

Nice day
Nice holiday gentlemen


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*DA off case*

Gentlemen

The DA has asked to be removed from the case.So it is about done.
Turned into sad situation.
With the poor play the basketball team is doing, I will root for Lacrosse this year.
Ranked number one!

Nice day gents


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

DukeGrad said:


> The DA has asked to be removed from the case.So it is about done.


Maybe yes, maybe no. The AG doesn't have to agree to Nifong's request; and even if he does, the case could still go forward. See KC Johnson's post about the possibilities.



> Turned into sad situation.


Well, I'd agree that the situation is sad, but that's not the adjective that I would use to describe it. "Infuriating" is. The more I read about this case, the clearer it becomes that the prosecutor and his office have engaged in serious, possibly even criminal, misconduct and that a significant portion of the Duke faculty don't care.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Duke faculty*

jcusey,

You are right about the faculty there. My sons friend came up for the holidays. She works in the Business school there. She told me how embarrasing it was for the rest of the Duke community, when these faculty spoke too soon.
The whole situation turned everything sour, those that are not guilty at all.
The sad part, am realizing this myself. Whites can be the minority, and fall into this situation.
The good part, I believe all will be strong.
I think it will be put to rest. I feel that positive about it.
I just hope all focus, move on and put behind.

Nice day my friend


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

It seems to me that a lot of leftists (not to mention the staff of the New York Times) saw this case as a dream come true: privileged white males abusing a poor black female. Finally they had found a crime that conformed to their view of the world. The truth was secondary.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I couldn't believe that one professor resigning her position because these obviously unfairly accused students were invited to come back to Duke.

If I were them, I would refuse to be part of Duke any more and look into suing the university, the stripper and the prosecutor. As I am not an attorney, I don't know if any of these cases would go far, but I would look into it.

I hope the prosecutor is disbarred. It's too bad that he almost certainly can't be jailed for what he did to these men.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I hope the prosecutor is disbarred. It's too bad that he almost certainly can't be jailed for what he did to these men.


Well, it is a federal crime for a person acting under the color of law to deprive someone of his civil rights. Whether Nifong's conduct is such that it violates this law, I can't say; but I'm sure that actual lawyers who actually know something will at least look into it.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Case is dropped.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3028515&page=1


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

A sordid mess. I wonder if anyone has thought about the coach that has probably had his career ruined over this?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> A sordid mess. I wonder if anyone has thought about the coach that has probably had his career ruined over this?


Regardless of whether the actual crime was committed. Certainly, there was a lack of supervision and accountability for the boys to be in the situation they were.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Gentlemen*

Gentlemen

Just got this as well. No case from the get go, no evidence that even an assault occurred.
Had information that showed this.
It is finally over. I feel for the families, some spent a lot on their defense.
Does Duke pay, or Durham county.
I believe it will be Durham county.
I agree, drinking and partying underage, and on a Div 1 team is an issue that needs to be addressed.
Anyway, that is another topic.

Have nice day my friends


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> Case is dropped.


Let the lawsuits begin.

False arrest
Defamation
Violation of civil rights
Malicious prosecution

By the way, read about the "Scottsboro Boys." Interesting parallels, except it was the Thirties, the Scottsboro Boys were black, and they were tried and convicted for raping two white prostitutes even though there was no evidence anything happened other than the accusers' story, and one accuser later recanted and said it wasn't true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottsboro_Boys


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

ksinc said:


> Regardless of whether the actual crime was committed. Certainly, there was a lack of supervision and accountability for the boys to be in the situation they were.


Excuse me! I believe these "boys" were over 18. That makes them adults and responsible for their own behavior. Colleges and universities should not be required to act as babysitters for grown adults.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

android said:


> Excuse me! I believe these "boys" were over 18. That makes them adults and responsible for their own behavior. Colleges and universities should not be required to act as babysitters for grown adults.


Well, I'm only 38, but to me they are boys. YMMV


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm waiting on Al Sharpton's apology....


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

DukeGrad said:


> Does Duke pay, or Durham county.
> I believe it will be Durham county.


I would imagine that they would have the strongest case against Durham County and Nifong personally. They're the ones who tore up the Constitution in an attempt to send these guys to jail. Many members of the Duke administration and faculty behaved disgracefully, but I don't see what they can be sued for. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

This is good news, and it should serve as a useful reminder that not everyone arrested and charged with a crime actually did it.

On the other hand, the revelations that followed the bringing of the charges, including the position of dominance that lacrosse players seem to have on the Duke* campus, hardly brings honor to the institution, and should give people reason to reconsider how they think of college sports.

*I'm not a Duke graduate, but I have the same opposition to the dominant position of sports at my two universities, Michigan State and the University of Michigan.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

jcusey said:


> I would imagine that they would have the strongest case against Durham County and Nifong personally. They're the ones who tore up the Constitution in an attempt to send these guys to jail. Many members of the Duke administration and faculty behaved disgracefully, but I don't see what they can be sued for. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?


What about the young lady who initially made the obviously false assusations? How about criminal charges being filed against her for (at least) filing a false police report...or better yet, how about an appology for the chaos and damage she has friviously introduced into these young mens lives and futures? I guess she just moves on with her life.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I told you gentlemen at the outset it reminded me a lot of the Tawana Brawley case, and so it turned out to be....


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

In case you missed your morning dose of moral relativism.

"DON'T FEEL TOO SORRY FOR THE DUKIES"
Terry Moron ... eh Moran ... ABCnews

https://blogs.abcnews.com/terrymoran/2007/04/dont_feel_too_s_1.html

UPDATE: https://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTEzMGY2YmVkNzJkOWE4OGExNWUxMzgxZmRiMjIyMjk=


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

eagle2250 said:


> What about the young lady who initially made the obviously false assusations? How about criminal charges being filed against her for (at least) filing a false police report...or better yet, how about an appology for the chaos and damage she has friviously introduced into these young mens lives and futures? I guess she just moves on with her life.


Suing the young woman who made the accusation may give the accused men some satisfaction, but it won't pay the $3 million in legal bills that they and their families have racked up defending themselves.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

jcusey said:


> Suing the young woman who made the accusation may give the accused men some satisfaction, but it won't pay the $3 million in legal bills that they and their families have racked up defending themselves.


As a legal matter, I don't see that there's any question that Durham County is going to have to reimburse them for those legal bills, although they will likely have to sue the County to get them. And the County will likely be liable for the legal bills incurred in that lawsuit as well.

There's also some case law out there the County and Nifong could be liable under RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act), a quasi-criminal federal statute, to the extent Nifong improperly did this for political reasons.


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