# Which is a better quality OTR Oxxford , Brioni, or Kiton ?



## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

I have several Oxxford suits and slacks. I think they are excellent. I don't own either
Brioni or Kiton suits. I have several Brioni and Kiton shirts and sweaters.
Are the Italian suits better made ? They look very nice worn by Pierce Brosnan and Kofi Annan.
Two men with different physiques.

I understand that Cary Grant wore Oxxford suits , is that true ? Are there any other comparable suits of the same quality and workmanship ?


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

I know little about Oxxford, so between Brioni and Kiton I would say Brioni. Cary Grant has worn Brioni, again I cannot comment on Oxxford. 

A Kiton suit requires about 25 hours work.

Brioni blazers takes at least 18 hours to make, certain blazers can take up to 30 hours. They are the only brand I would consider away from The Row, if I had the money for Savile Row bespoke. Taking into account a Savile Row bespoke suit will require at least 80 hours of work. 

I do not know about the sweater ranges; however, it is not an indicator about how their suits are.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

ToryBoy said:


> A Kiton suit requires about 25 hours work.
> 
> Brioni blazers takes at least 18 hours to make, certain blazers can take up to 30 hours...Taking into account a Savile Row bespoke suit will require at least 80 hours of work.


...and those numbers are audited by whom?


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## ghost02 (Nov 3, 2008)

As I have said, _*I*_ perfer Oxxford because they look good on _*me.*_ What is good for you is what fits. Brioni fits the best, then that is the best suit ever. Kiton fits the best, then that is the best. Oxxford fits the best, it is the best for you. Comparing material and workmanship is a moot point becuase all suits in this range are handmade with good materials.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

ToryBoy said:


> I know little about Oxxford, so between Brioni and Kiton I would say Brioni. Cary Grant has worn Brioni, again I cannot comment on Oxxford.
> 
> A Kiton suit requires about 25 hours work.
> 
> ...


It takes Kiton 25 to 30 hours to make a suit. It takes Brioni 30 to 35 hours to make a suit. It takes Oxxford 35 to 40 hours to make a suit.

Fit is 100% subjective.

However, quality and craftsmanship are 100% objective. In these areas, Oxxford is the best of these three by a very good margin. Kiton is the worst of these three in these areas by a fairly good margin. Brioni in these areas is substantially closer to Oxxford than Kiton.

If it weren't for the fact that Kiton only uses fabrics (at the request of their customers and the employees at Kiton) with thread counts ranging from super 150s to super 220s (which, apparently, have better to significantly better durability than fabrics with the same thread counts from everybody other than Kiton), their prices would be 30 to 40 percent of what they actually are.

Harrison's of Edinburgh is the only merchant that is willing to make fabrics with such high thread counts with much higher durability (but still not very high overall) for Kiton (who copyrights them from Harrison's of Edinburgh).

It costs Harrison's of Edinburgh a huge amount of money to make these fabrics with high thread counts that are much less flimsy and a much huger amount of money for Kiton to copyright them and buy them from Harrison's of Edinburgh. This is why Kiton is horrifically overpriced.

Sator said it best by far on the LL. Specifically, on the LL, Sator said that Kiton anything is the greatest waste of wardrobe space imaginable. In the almost 33 years I have been alive, me agreeing with Sator about Kiton anything being the greatest waste of wardrobe space imaginable is by far the most strongly I have ever agreed with anybody about anything.

Kiton's quality is good, but nowhere near good enough (far from it to the point where it is terribly embarrassing) for a starting price of $5K or $6K for an OTR suit and $7K to start for a MTM suit. At $1.5K to $1.8K to start for an OTR suit and $2.1K to start for a MTM suit I would most likely disagree with Sator somewhat (but only somewhat).


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

Audi S5 TC said:


> It takes Kiton 25 to 30 hours to make a suit. It takes Brioni 30 to 35 hours to make a suit. It takes Oxxford 35 to 40 hours to make a suit.
> 
> Fit is 100% subjective.
> 
> ...


Informative post. Yet it is said that Kiton makes the finest in Naepolitan bespoke suits.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I suppose that the answer will always fall to personal preference and the only way to determine that is to purchase and wear a representative sample of them all. Much like you can't compare a porsche to a BMW without owning and extensively driving both.

I probably have that representative sample with two Kiton 14 micron suites and a fair number of odd jackets, 3 Brioni suits and a fair number of odd jackets, and a couple three of Oxxford suits and 6-8 odd jackets and a fair number of Oxxford slacks.

All are truly wonderful. I can not believe how light the Kiton's wear and how well a fabric with such thin thread will hold up over a day's wear. I tend to be a pretty fair fit for a e54L from Kiton.

The Brioni's probably fit me otr least well varying between a 42L and a 44L and neither of those fitting particularly well. Very nice fabrics but probably my 3rd of the 3 on my personal ranking system.

I truly love all my Oxxfords. They wear well, hold up beautifully and just tend to make me feel better any time I wear them. They clearly are my favorite of the three and after my experience with them, I likely will be pretty exclusive to Oxxford going forward.

I will promise you that I never ever think about how many hours it took to make each one while I am wearing it. That has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the suit. It is how it feels on my (generally that is most influenced by fit) and how the fabrics feel (that is the nearly sensous part of wearing a great suit). Now those two criteria may be influenced by the amount of hand work, but I could truly care less about the details only caring about the result.

YMMV,

Perry


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## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

If one is pleased with Oxxford, then there doesn't seem need to consider Brioni or Kiton. Perhaps you could wear your Oxxford when you try on Brioni and/or Kiton and make side by side comparisons,


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

kitonbrioni said:


> If one is pleased with Oxxford, then there doesn't seem need to consider Brioni or Kiton. Perhaps you could wear your Oxxford when you try on Brioni and/or Kiton and make side by side comparisons,


Kiton and Brioni have 2 very different styles. You seem to love both. Which one do you prefer?


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

TheGuyIsBack said:


> Informative post. Yet it is said that Kiton makes the finest in Naepolitan bespoke suits.


Actually, it is said (and it is 100% the truth, for the win) that Rubinacci makes the finest Neapolitan bespoke suits with Liverano & Liverano coming in a close second according to somebody that calls himself Sleevehead (who, apparently, is a very reliable source for information regarding men's dresswear and formalwear).

Both Rubinacci and Liverano & Liverano are INDESCRIBIBLY superior to Kiton to the point where Kiton and there customers should be terribly embarrassed or very mortified! Rubinacci and Liverano & Liverano are the real deal when it comes to Neapolitan Italian clothing. Kiton is the worst example of Neapolitan Italian clothing I have ever encountered (and probably ever will encounter-a caricature of Neapolitan Italian clothing, if you will).

For what it's worth, Kiton doesn't really do bespoke suits. Semi bespoke is a GARGANTUAN maybe. But full bespoke? No stinking way! Kiton is fibbing big time there (shame on those fools)!

For the loss, the people at Kiton are the only people on Earth that are under the delusion (and the only people on Earth who say) that there clothing is the finest in Naples or on Earth. Everybody else on Earth knows this is extremely far from the truth. And, everybody else on Earth has never once said that Kiton makes the finest clothing in Naples or on Earth.


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## scwtlover (Nov 12, 2008)

Audi S5 TC said:


> Actually, it is said (and it is 100% the truth, for the win) that Rubinacci makes the finest Neapolitan bespoke suits with Liverano & Liverano coming in a close second according to somebody that calls himself Sleevehead (who, apparently, is a very reliable source for information regarding men's dresswear and formalwear).


The Rubinacci website makes an interesting comment that we all might do well to take remember: (See under "Style.")


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

Audi S5 TC said:


> Actually, it is said (and it is 100% the truth, for the win) that Rubinacci makes the finest Neapolitan bespoke suits with Liverano & Liverano coming in a close second according to somebody that calls himself Sleevehead (who, apparently, is a very reliable source for information regarding men's dresswear and formalwear).
> 
> Both Rubinacci and Liverano & Liverano are INDESCRIBIBLY superior to Kiton to the point where Kiton and there customers should be terribly embarrassed or very mortified! Rubinacci and Liverano & Liverano are the real deal when it comes to Neapolitan Italian clothing. Kiton is the worst example of Neapolitan Italian clothing I have ever encountered (and probably ever will encounter-a caricature of Neapolitan Italian clothing, if you will).
> 
> ...


Right. How about the Kiton k50. Enzo, the master tailor of Kiton seem to have a big clientele.
What is your opinion on Attolini and Brioni's bespoke.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

Liverano seems to be from Florence not Napoli.


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## blauiman (Dec 20, 2004)

TheGuyIsBack said:


> Right. How about the Kiton k50. Enzo, the master tailor of Kiton seem to have a big clientele.
> What is your opinion on Attolini and Brioni's bespoke.


1. Enzo died a few weeks ago. (cancer)

2. Kiton does NOT buy fabrics from Harrisons

regards


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

blauiman said:


> 1. Enzo died a few weeks ago. (cancer)
> 
> 2. Kiton does NOT buy fabrics from Harrisons
> 
> regards


RIP Enzo

but who mentioned Harrisons?


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

TheGuyIsBack said:


> Right. How about the Kiton K50? Enzo, the master tailor of Kiton seems to have a big clientele.


But a very, very vast majority of that " big" clientele is from the United States of America. Overseas, a very, very vast majority of the people want absolutely nothing to do with Kiton.



TheGuyIsBack said:


> What is your opinion on Attolini and Brioni's bespoke?


Attolini and Brioni are quite far ahead of Kiton in quality therefore Attolini bespoke and Brioni bespoke are quite far ahead of Kiton bespoke in quality.

That being said, Attolini bespoke and Brioni bespoke are not true bespoke. Semi bespoke from Attolini and Brioni, like semi bespoke from Kiton is a GARGANTUAN maybe. But full bespoke from Attolini and Brioni? No stinking way! Attolini and Brioni are also fibbing big time there (shame on those fools, too, I am afraid)!

If you want true (or full) bespoke and you want a Neapolitan Italian silhouette, stick with Rubinacci in Naples and/or Liverano & Liverano (who is in Florence, Italy and not Naples, Italy but insists on the Neapolitan Italian silhouette like Rubinacci). Of course, Liverano & Liverano's Neapolitan Italian silhouette is 50% the same and 50% different from Rubinacci's Neapolitan Italian silhouette.

If you want true (or full) bespoke and you want a Roman Italian silhouette, stick with Caraceni Rome or Mimmo Siviglia, both of whom are in Rome. Or, you can go with William Fioravanti or Raphael Raffaelli (both of whom are in New York, NY, USA).

All of the tailors are indescribably better than Kiton, Attolini and Brioni is every conceivable way and cost the same as, less or so much less than Brioni, Attolini and especially Kiton. You have absolutely everything to gain and absolutely nothing to lose.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

blauiman said:


> 1. Enzo died a few weeks ago. (cancer)
> 
> 2. Kiton does NOT buy fabrics from Harrisons
> 
> regards


A while back, a member of AAAC (not me, of course) as well as a member of SF (also not me, of course) claimed that Kiton does, in fact, buy their fabrics from Harrison's of Edinburgh?

If Kiton does NOT buy their fabrics from Harrison's of Edinburgh, then what merchant does Kiton buy their fabrics from?

By the way, I am sorry to hear that Enzo at Kiton passed away from cancer a few weeks ago. May he rest in peace.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

Audi S5 TC said:


> But a very, very vast majority of that " big" clientele is from the United States of America. Overseas, a very, very vast majority of the people want absolutely nothing to do with Kiton.
> 
> Attolini and Brioni are quite far ahead of Kiton in quality therefore Attolini bespoke and Brioni bespoke are quite far ahead of Kiton bespoke in quality.
> 
> ...


Interesting story. Thanks for the effort you took to inform me.
Now, what is your opinion on a step below: Caruso and Castangia RTW. Another step:
Zegna, Canali, Corneliani and Zileri RTW?


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## tmack3 (Jan 14, 2006)

I have a few MTM Oxxford Suits and love each of them. 

I also have bespoke suits from different tailors. Each told me nobody makes a better MTM suit than Oxxford. Take it for whatever it's worth.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

Audi S5TC,

I think that if you don't like Kiton you should say so clearly


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Simon Myerson said:


> Audi S5TC,
> 
> I think that if you don't like Kiton you should say so clearly


Alright, alright, I very, very strongly dislike Kiton, but only because their quality is only good enough for their prices to be 30% of what they actually are.

Kiton's quality is far, far below being good enough for what their prices actually are.

If Kiton's prices were 30% of what they actually are, then I would like them somewhat.

Of course, if they became a far better interpretation of Neapolitan Italian clothing that they actually are (which is a caricature) on top of them cutting their prices by 70%, that would also be really, really nice.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

tmack3 said:


> I have a few MTM Oxxford Suits and love each of them.
> 
> I also have bespoke suits from different tailors. Each told me nobody makes a better MTM suit than Oxxford. Take it for whatever it's worth.


Each of your tailors hit the nail right on the head, tmack3. Oxxford's MTM suits are the best MTM suits on Earth, at least from quality and workmanship perspectives (which are 100% objective). As for fit, that is 100% subjective. For some people, Oxxford MTM has the best fit or a good fit. For some people, Oxxford MTM has the worst fit or a bad fit. However, Oxxford now offers all American, English and Italian silhouettes in existence, so this may reduce the subjectivity of the fit somewhat (with there maybe even being some objectivity in the fit). As they always say, YMMV.

Even iammatt and mafoofan (who uniformly despise Oxxford, BTW) admit that the only way to do better than Oxxford is to go bespoke, preferably (and this preference for many-but far from all people including iammatt, mafoofan and possibly myself is incredibly strong) from tailors that are of the likes of Rubinacci, H. Huntsman and William Fioravanti. However, if the bespoke is from tailors along the likes of Ariel Tello (where bespoke is or usually is hit and miss, inconsistent, etcetera), bespoke could just as easily be better than Oxxford MTM as it could be worse than Oxxford MTM. Again, your mileage may vary (or, YMMV for short).


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## ghost02 (Nov 3, 2008)

Just went to my local Wilkes Bashford [best store ever] and the salesman said between Brioni and Oxxford, Brioni is by far better because of fabric material and the sheer quality. Any thoughts?


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

tmack3 said:


> I have a few MTM Oxxford Suits and love each of them.
> 
> I also have bespoke suits from different tailors. Each told me nobody makes a better MTM suit than Oxxford. Take it for whatever it's worth.


I know absolutely nothing about Caruso and Castangia, so I have no comment (or opinion for that matter) on them, unfortunately.

Zegna is good stuff but very expensive (about the same price as Oxxford which is substantially better than Zegna in quality and craftsmanship and, for me, Oxxford is substantially better in fit than Zegna, regardless of the silhouette from Oxxford; see my previous reply message to tmack 3 regarding all of the different silhouettes that Oxxford offers) posted at 5:50PM (17:50) Eastern Time).

Canali offers oodles and oodles of bang for the buck but their made to measure availability is extremely limited (at least this is the case in North America), unfortunately. 

Corneliani Mainline (which their flagship line of clothing and accounts for 70 or so percent of their sales) offers oodles and oodles of band for the buck. And, like Oxxford, Zegna, Canali, Brioni, Kiton, Attolini and tailors of the likes of Fioravanti, Huntsman and Rubinacci as well as tailors of the likes of Ariel Tello in Los Angeles, CA, USA is fully canvassed (a GARGANTUAN plus for me, especially at all of these tailors and brands prices). Plus, Corneliani Mainline's MTM is available in every store that is not an outlet store (a few examples of outlet store, where everything is ready to wear, are Filene's Basement, Neiman Marcus Last Call, Saks Off Fifth and Nordstrom Rack) that sells Corneliani Mainline.

The mid level line of Corneliani (Corneliani CC, if I remember correctly) is decent but not great (if I am not mistaken, this line of Corneliani is 50% canvassed and 50% fused, not my style, at least not entirely my style. at about $1K for an OTR suit). Corneliani Trend (entry level Corneliani) is a bit mediocre (if I am not mistaken, this line of Corneliani is primarily fused with some canvassing) but at about $700 to start for an OTR two-piece suit, I guess primarily fused with some canvassing is not awful.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

Nice..
How about Isaia and Barbera?


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

Audi S5 TC said:


> If you want true (or full) bespoke and you want a Neapolitan Italian silhouette...
> 
> If you want true (or full) bespoke and you want a Roman Italian silhouette, ....


Can you post a pic of both?


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

rkipperman said:


> Can you post a pic of both?


A search on this forum might help.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

TheGuyIsBack said:


> A search on this forum might help.


...and pics of what I mentioned would help too.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

rkipperman said:


> Can you post a pic of both?


Unfortunately, I don't know how to post pictures on this forum. When I figure out how to post pictures on this forum, I will post pictures of the different silhouettes and the numerous interpretations of them immediately after a few practice posts (which most forums do actually have for posting pictures).

Until then I am sorry I cannot post any of these pictures because I would love to right now or ASAP.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

rkipperman said:


> ...and pics of what I mentioned would help too.


You will find those, when you search.


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Harrisons (sic) of Edinburgh is a merchant. www.lbd-harrisons.com Although named Harrisons it has been owned by a family named Dunsford for a while.

Their Millionaire Cashmere is woven by Johnstons (sic) in Elgin. www.johnstonscashmere.com An Edinburgh Harrison married into the Johnstons business over a hundred years ago and a family Harrison owns/owned Johnstons. Whether there is a familial connection bewixt Dunsford and Johnstons/Harrison I know not.

Under the Harrisons umbrella are a variety of branded entities. Whether they actually weave or are just brands at this point I dunno. Suitings are woven in Huddersfield (Yorkshire, Eng.), could be Moxon of Holmfirth, etc., and other jacketings are woven in Scotland. There's been a consolidation of the UK weaving industry.

You can see the microindentions of multiple hand padded stitches on the underside of Oxxford lapels. Even a novice can see the hand sewing within the partially lined jackets. The pocketing bemberg and lining edging are hand sewn (tacked) to the body of the jacket. On the underside of the visable seam inlays you'll find they've been hand, not machine sewn. The front button holes are neatly finished on both the outside and inside. Oxxford uses masculine buttons. Oxxford, for most practical purposes, is somewhat over-engineered with hand sewing. There are those who scoff at such anal retentive detailing, usually a tailor or manufacturer.

As you can't inspect the innards of fully lined Kiton and Brioni jackets without ripping the lining seams, consider an inspection of the trouser construction. Oxxford is resplendent in obviously hand sewn details excepting the machine sewn straight seams. Unless they've changed, Brioni trousers are predominantly machine sewn, including machine sewn pic stitching at the fly and front pocket edges. I own at least one of each.

I do not own Kiton but have visually inspected the obvious hand sewn finishing in shops. The examples I've seen exhibited inconsistent hand stitching where visable. As I recall the trouser construction was similar to Brioni. There used to be significant hype of Kiton here and on SF until someone actually dissected a jacket and posted photos on SF, perhaps a year and a half ago. Fuzzy memory, but the Kiton may, may, have had machine padded lapels, or at least sparsely stitched hand pad stitches. Kiton enthusiasts scattered as roaches on a tropical kitchen floor surprised by nocturnal illumination. Kiton as an icon suffered fora fade.

Oxxford's a superior construction compared to the vast majority of bespoke suiting. You'd have to spend at least half again Oxxford's retail for similar quality in a bespoke suit. Economics.

Fit and styling preferences are other matters.

(A familiarity with hand sewing would behoove anyone acquiring expensive suits (not necessarily the same as expensively tailored), not an insignificant amount of which are overpriced, especially Italian RTW. You might be told differently by a tailor who eschews same for reasons of self interest, or merchant ditto.)


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

jamgood said:


> Harrisons (sic) of Edinburgh is a merchant. www.lbd-harrisons.com Although named Harrisons it has been owned by a family named Dunsford for a while.
> 
> Their Millionaire Cashmere is woven by Johnstons (sic) in Elgin. www.johnstonscashmere.com An Edinburgh Harrison married into the Johnstons business over a hundred years ago and a family Harrison owns/owned Johnstons. Whether there is a familial connection bewixt Dunsford and Johnstons/Harrison I know not.
> 
> ...


Regarding nothing other than tailored clothing (tailored clothing being suits, sportsjackets or odd jackets, odd trousers, odd vests, tuxedos, morning coats, tailcoats, topcoats and overcoats) from Oxxford (ready to wear, made to order and made to measure) versus from all tailors still in existence (full bespoke):

Yes, Oxxford has better to substantially better all around quality and craftsmanship and is more to substantially more hand sewn and less to substantially less handmade than a vast majority of all tailors still in existence (even compared to most-but certainly NOT all-of the best or good tailors that are still in existence such as H. Huntsman).

However, there are a few (actually, 15) tailors that have better (but better only by a small or relatively small amount) all around quality and craftsmanship and are more hand sewn and less handmade (but only more hand sewn and less handmade by a small or very small amount) than Oxxford.

Those 15 tailors who exceed Oxxford in all around quality and craftsmanship and hand sewing are: William Fioravanti, Frank Shattuck, Tony Maurizio, Vincenzo Sanitate, Maurice Sedwell, Des Merrion, Rubinacci London, William Westmancott, Gianni Campagna, Caraceni Milan, Rubinacci Milan, Caraceni Rome, Rubinacci Naples, Liverano & Liverano and J.H. Cutler (also know as John Cutler or John H. Cutler; unfortunately, I don't know what the H stands for in J.H. Cutler, who is located in Sydney, Australia-sorry about that).


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## Brax (Dec 3, 2005)

Audi S5 TC said:


> Those 15 tailors who exceed Oxxford in all around quality and craftsmanship and hand sewing are: William Fioravanti, Frank Shattuck, Tony Maurizio, Vincenzo Sanitate, Maurice Sedwell, Des Merrion, Rubinacci London, William Westmancott, Gianni Campagna, Caraceni Milan, Rubinacci Milan, Caraceni Rome, Rubinacci Naples, Liverano & Liverano and J.H. Cutler (also know as John Cutler or John H. Cutler; unfortunately, I don't know what the H stands for in J.H. Cutler, who is located in Sydney, Australia-sorry about that).


What about Chris Despos in Oxxford's home of Chicago? I have both and my Despos jacket is unmatched.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Audi S5 TC said:


> However, there are a few (actually, 15) tailors that have better (but better only by a small or relatively small amount) all around quality and craftsmanship and are more hand sewn and less handmade (but only more hand sewn and less handmade by a small or very small amount) than Oxxford.
> 
> Those 15 tailors who exceed Oxxford in all around quality and craftsmanship and hand sewing are: William Fioravanti, Frank Shattuck, Tony Maurizio, Vincenzo Sanitate, Maurice Sedwell, Des Merrion, Rubinacci London, William Westmancott, Gianni Campagna, Caraceni Milan, Rubinacci Milan, Caraceni Rome, Rubinacci Naples, Liverano & Liverano and J.H. Cutler (also know as John Cutler or John H. Cutler; unfortunately, I don't know what the H stands for in J.H. Cutler, who is located in Sydney, Australia-sorry about that).


Can I buy any of the 15 at my local Neiman Marcus?

Just kidding.

Even Chris Despos has not made my wardrobe as I seldom get to either Dallas or Chicago and Italy, London or Australia.

Access is somewhat more than slightly important.

Perry


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