# New Allen Edmonds (Sleeker/Less Stubby) Captoe Bal



## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

I received my Allen Edmonds catalog in the mail today and when I browsed it, I did a double-take. They have unveiled a new Captoe Bal that looks noticeably sleeker than the old standby Park Avenue.

It's called the *Hopkinson* and its built on the 201 last which it shares with the Rogue and the Warwick. This new model is part of what appears to be a redux of the Independence Collection. _(The collection includes a modified Strand called the *Bartlett* and a *Jefferson 2.0*, which is a nicer McAllister)_

Here's a link to the Hopkinson:https://www.allenedmonds.com/shoes/mens-shoes/new-styles/hopkinson-cap-toe-oxfords/SF7685.html

Here is a comparison ...


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## tch04 (Aug 6, 2014)

Depends on your definition of "sleek." I have the Rouge, and it is much fuller in the fore foot than the PAs 5 last, but that happens to be a better fit for me. I do prefer the longer cap compared to the "stubby" one on the PA. Not sure why the elevated price tag, but I'd sure like to try a pair.


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

tch04 said:


> ... Not sure why the elevated price tag ...


If these are consistent with the previous Independence Collection offerings, the shoes will have softer leathers, lambskin linings, wheeled edges, and some other exclusive touches.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

It looks great from the top, but in the 3/4 view it's not doing much for me.


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## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

It looks nice, but I wouldn't pay that amount of money for an AE product that is not Shell Cordovan.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

tch04 said:


> Rouge


Rogue!
Is there something sleeker beyond the extended empty toe cap that breaks a clean curve?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Sorry...I'm not seeing anything special here. And at that price point?


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

You cheapskates, it's clear in the photo that it's made nicer than the stock Park Ave (mine are really unimpressive leather, for one). It's around Alden pricing, right? And please don't answer by talking about horsehide.
The heel does appear narrower too, and that's a good thing.


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

Well I've always thought the caps on the PA's were a bit too stubby.

Want something sleek? Try these:



Use the code in the description to make it cheaper than the AE. You'll also have a superior shoe.


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## doodledoc (Dec 31, 2014)

CLTesquire said:


> Well I've always thought the caps on the PA's were a bit too stubby.
> 
> Want something sleek? Try these:
> 
> Use the code in the description to make it cheaper than the AE. You'll also have a superior shoe.


Better yet, email him (Steve, owner) and tell him who you are and you're friend Ask Andy and he'll drop it lower. He dropped it to $393.75 and that includes tax since I live in CA and he ships from CA.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

My own merlot Fifth Avenues, which are about 20 years old, are much sleeker than the current version (I know because I have the BB 5th Ave equivalent in black). So in a sense this new shoe is a return to the past.

My older 5th Aves more closely resemble the Carmina captoes, except they do not have the chisel toe (and that's IMO a good thing).


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## Adelantado (Nov 23, 2013)

When I acquired my first pair of Park Aves, the stubby captoe irritated me quite a bit. Now it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, if the price were the same, I would not opt for the Hopkinson. I believe psychologists call it the mere-exposure effect...


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## Chris Giakoumakos (Aug 28, 2015)

What about these? Cheaper than both mentioned above.


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## Chris Giakoumakos (Aug 28, 2015)




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## Chris Giakoumakos (Aug 28, 2015)




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## doodledoc (Dec 31, 2014)

depends on who makes them, quality of the leather, welt construction, etc. Those look a lot better than any AE shoe I've ever seen though.


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## Chris Giakoumakos (Aug 28, 2015)

Made in France, by Septieme Largeur. The model is called "Alexandre".


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## doodledoc (Dec 31, 2014)

Chris Giakoumakos said:


> Made in France, by Septieme Largeur. The model is called "Alexandre".


upr_crust actually has a pair of those. Perhaps he can chime on on those.

Looks like I found the same pics that you posted: https://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2015/09/septieme-largeur-new-adelaide-oxford.html

https://www.thefineyounggentleman.com/shoes/septieme-largeur/ (I think the author of this blog is a tool, so I personally take what he says with a mountain of salt).


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

doodledoc said:


> depends on who makes them, quality of the leather, welt construction, etc. Those look a lot better than any AE shoe I've ever seen though.


Greetings AAAC --

Normally, I don't comment on matters of styling taste or about competitors, but this post above I can't let go by, nor the one above that calls the shoes made in Spain "superior". It's offensive (yes that) to me that a product made in a much lower wage and benefits country than the U.S. is justifiable at over $500, but an American-made shoe of superior construction and materials at $495 is doubted. Why the higher price for the Independence Collection like the Hopkinson than our usual calfskin shoes at $385? First the upper leather is from a different tannery, a small boutique French tannery where John Lobb buys its leather for its shoes priced 3X higher and up. The tanning process takes roughly twice as long as the next grade of calfskin we buy from our Timeless Classics tanneries, and is therefore more costly. It's incredible leather for a shoe, more like fine glove leather than shoe leather, yet strong enough for longevity in shoe wear. The lining is lambskin lining, incredibly soft (wearing these shoes without socks would be incredible). The sole is a stylized sole, more expensive to produce with it's artisan touches, and the heel is a more expensive combination leather heel with a rubber back quarter one normally only sees on shoes priced from $550-850 and up. And they are made with 360 degree Goodyear welted construction and more fine details in their making (the wheeling and beveled edge for example). Stitch for stich, inch for inch, these Independence shoes and their materials are among the best money can buy, at any price. I assure you, we do our homework. We buy competitor shoes and cut them apart to see exactly how they're made, we shop the competitors' booths at the trade shows in the U.S. and in Florence, Italy, where the Europeans are more prevalent. We've toured Italian factories in person and Spanish and British factories online. We work with freelance designers who've toured shoe factories all around the world. At $495, these shoes are a steal.

Regarding the last, we put a little more space across the ball of the foot through the toe in the 201 last than in our 65 last. If you have a longer arch to your foot relative to your foot size, the 201 will fit you better (as it does me). We also did a higher cone on the shoe, both for a more stylish look up the instep, and so men with higher insteps can wear the balmoral styles more comfortably (another concern we hear from some customers about the 65 last). If you like the 65 already, you won't need these changes but they shouldn't hurt your fit either. If you're cramped in the toes or across your instep, you'll like the 201.

Finally, as to the length of the cap on the toe, that's a styling preference issue about which I won't argue. But if those Spanish shoes look better than any AE shoes you've seen, you need to go to one of our stores and look more closely at both.

Best wishes,
Paul


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## doodledoc (Dec 31, 2014)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Greetings AAAC --
> 
> Normally, I don't comment on matters of styling taste or about competitors, but this post above I can't let go by, nor the one above that calls the shoes made in Spain "superior". It's offensive (yes that) to me that a product made in a much lower wage and benefits country than the U.S. is justifiable at over $500, but an American-made shoe of superior construction and materials at $495 is doubted. Why the higher price for the Independence Collection like the Hopkinson than our usual calfskin shoes at $385? First the upper leather is from a different tannery, a small boutique French tannery where John Lobb buys its leather for its shoes priced 3X higher and up. The tanning process takes roughly twice as long as the next grade of calfskin we buy from our Timeless Classics tanneries, and is therefore more costly. It's incredible leather for a shoe, more like fine glove leather than shoe leather, yet strong enough for longevity in shoe wear. The lining is lambskin lining, incredibly soft (wearing these shoes without socks would be incredible). The sole is a stylized sole, more expensive to produce with it's artisan touches, and the heel is a more expensive combination leather heel with a rubber back quarter one normally only sees on shoes priced from $550-850 and up. And they are made with 360 degree Goodyear welted construction and more fine details in their making (the wheeling and beveled edge for example). Stitch for stich, inch for inch, these Independence shoes and their materials are among the best money can buy, at any price. I assure you, we do our homework. We buy competitor shoes and cut them apart to see exactly how they're made, we shop the competitors' booths at the trade shows in the U.S. and in Florence, Italy, where the Europeans are more prevalent. We've toured Italian factories in person and Spanish and British factories online. We work with freelance designers who've toured shoe factories all around the world. At $495, these shoes are a steal.
> 
> ...


Hi Paul,

Please don't take "look a lot better" to mean that the SLs above to mean SLs are superior. I was referencing the look of the shoe. While that's a response that can be understood in many ways, I was referencing the shoe shape, not the quality of the materials nor the construction. In my opinion, the SL above is a sleeker shoe than PA, strand, mcallister, and kenilworth. These are AE shoes that I have either tried on in store or personally have. I am confident that AEs will last much longer than SL, but I find that the pair of SLs above would be better looking than the AEs that I have tried on or worn. Just my opinion.

I am sure the 201 last is very nice. If it is styled and as sleek an Italian or European shoe, I will consider it. But in my experience, except for AE's 333 last, I am not a fan of AEs last as I prefer the sleek look. And I do agree above with CL Tesquire. Carmina's Rain last is a pretty last. I have a pair and I like them very much.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Finally, as to the length of the cap on the toe, that's a styling preference issue about which I won't argue.


Paul, first of all I want to say that I really enjoy your presence on the forum. Second, won't the longer cap toe allow for creasing below the cap line?


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Greetings Gentlemen -- Thanks very much for your replies to my post. Specifically, we're working on a new longer toe last, like the 333 only better. Stay tuned for that. In the meantime, check out our Corwallis and Yorktown on the 1943 last, which we developed with a global shoe design expert who visits the European factories for design projects every season. It has the squarer toe you might like, but with out the emptiness at the end of the shoe that can curl up over time and that many guys don't like due to the extension of the foot. Sales so far this month indicate that the Cornwallis is a huge hit.

As for the positioning of the cap on the Independence shoes, it's no longer than shoes we've done before without issues. It's just longer than the Park Avenue. Where the shoe breaks depends on foot anatomy which, like everything else is unique to individuals. There are probably a small % of feet with shorter than usual toes relative to the overall length of the foot, that could break below the cap line. I have that kind of a foot for my 11.5 D sizing (my heel to ball of the foot length is more like a 13 sizing), and these don't break strangely for me, though.

Thanks again for your support and interest in AE!
Paul


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## yakov78 (Sep 17, 2015)

I just love that the AE CEO is active on AAAC, and I admire the passion he has about his company and their products. :hi:


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## yakov78 (Sep 17, 2015)

I am inspired to visit their stores in NYC tomorrow...


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## Roycru (Apr 13, 2011)

For comparison, here's a picture of my MTO (rubber soles) Allen-Edmonds Rutledges (from their earlier Independence line shoes). Although these are 9 3E, they still look what some might call "sleeker" than Park Avenues.

I have a pair of MTO (rubber soles) Park Avenues. I can take a picture comparing the two if someone wants to see the difference.

For those who might be wondering if the Independence shoes are worth the additional cost, yes, they are more than worth the additional cost.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Just curious as to why a global shoe expert may be needed to come up with designs when many of the shoes featured in catalogs front the 50's and 60's appear quite relevant. 

I wonder why AE doesn't reach back into the vault to reissue these?


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

SG_67 said:


> Just curious as to why a global shoe expert may be needed to come up with designs when many of the shoes featured in catalogs front the 50's and 60's appear quite relevant.
> 
> I wonder why AE doesn't reach back into the vault to reissue these?


I _think_ their archives are a little weak - they had a catastrophic fire sometime in the early '80s. I've heard that affected the archival lasts in a big way, though I'm not sure it damaged the patterns.

Of course, what you and I would buy and what keeps the company in business are two separate things. I am glad that we're starting to see touches like wheeled welts and some of the new finishing options.


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

Roycru said:


> For comparison, here's a picture of my MTO (rubber soles) Allen-Edmonds Rutledges (from their earlier Independence line shoes). Although these are 9 3E, they still look what some might call "sleeker" than Park Avenues.
> 
> I have a pair of MTO (rubber soles) Park Avenues. I can take a picture comparing the two if someone wants to see the difference.
> 
> For those who might be wondering if the Independence shoes are worth the additional cost, yes, they are more than worth the additional cost.


I always liked the Rutledge. You've got a nice shine going on these!


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## adcgroup (Oct 8, 2015)

Paul,

I just wanted to butt in and say that I appreciate many things about Allen Edmonds, and style is but one of them. My father introduced me to Allen Edmonds nearly 40 years ago, long before I was able to afford a pair. Of course, back then you could still support an American company making American products even if they were more cheaply made. That is no longer the case.

I have no desire to own a European-made shoe regardless the price or "style", and I don't own a single pair of dress shoes that are not made in the USA. You made the most poignant observation about how some worship overpriced overseas shoes when they have great value and style right here at home.

I don't really like the profile of most Italian and Spanish shoes and I can find most of the English styles that I like made by Allen Edmonds. I currently have about a dozen pairs of Allen Edmonds in my rotation out of about 16 altogether. My favorites are the Park Avenues (I've got all colors but Bourbon so far). I've got 3 styles in Walnut - my favorite color of all time. Out of all your oxblood variations, I have preferred the Merlot among them all.

So, to the relevance of this discussion, I just purchased my first pair in the Independence Collection - "*The Bartlett*". Before I talk about the shoe, let me say that I love the fact that Allen Edmonds is proud of their American heritage. I love the fact that you've named these shoes after founding fathers of this great country (Josiah Bartlett was the first representative to answer the question of independence - yes, of course - and after John Hancock, was the first signer of the Declaration of Independence on July 2, 1776 {yes, that's the right date}).

I'm proud to be an American, and I'm proud to wear your shoes.

Now, about "*The Bartlett*".

The shoe is worth every penny! The lambskin is so soft, I'd love to have a pillow made out of it. The very first day I wore the shoes, it felt like they were as familiar with my feet as my 10-year old Parks.

*One suggestion*: Make the Hopkinson in Walnut. It's my favorite color and the formal captoes are my favorite shoe. I could see retiring the Park Avenues in exchange for all the colors in Hopkinson if you had them.

For me, it appears that you're "keeping the main thing the main thing". I am a man, so I am as interested in comfort as much as I am style for a shoe I'll wear all day. "The Bartlett" I'm wearing today hits both. Having the option to get Park Avenues, Strands, and McAllisters in this premium comfort is very appealing to me and I wouldn't hesitate to suggest the value of these shoes to anyone.

Thanks for leading a great American company!

Duane


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

I would love it if AE designed more shoes on this 201 last, but in the usual price range. However, I can understand that the exclusivity of this last to the Independence Collection is factored into the cost of that range.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Greetings AAAC --
> 
> Normally, I don't comment on matters of styling taste or about competitors, but this post above I can't let go by, nor the one above that calls the shoes made in Spain "superior". It's offensive (yes that) to me that a product made in a much lower wage and benefits country than the U.S. is justifiable at over $500, but an American-made shoe of superior construction and materials at $495 is doubted. Why the higher price for the Independence Collection like the Hopkinson than our usual calfskin shoes at $385? First the upper leather is from a different tannery, a small boutique French tannery where John Lobb buys its leather for its shoes priced 3X higher and up. The tanning process takes roughly twice as long as the next grade of calfskin we buy from our Timeless Classics tanneries, and is therefore more costly. It's incredible leather for a shoe, more like fine glove leather than shoe leather, yet strong enough for longevity in shoe wear. The lining is lambskin lining, incredibly soft (wearing these shoes without socks would be incredible). The sole is a stylized sole, more expensive to produce with it's artisan touches, and the heel is a more expensive combination leather heel with a rubber back quarter one normally only sees on shoes priced from $550-850 and up. And they are made with 360 degree Goodyear welted construction and more fine details in their making (the wheeling and beveled edge for example). Stitch for stich, inch for inch, these Independence shoes and their materials are among the best money can buy, at any price. I assure you, we do our homework. We buy competitor shoes and cut them apart to see exactly how they're made, we shop the competitors' booths at the trade shows in the U.S. and in Florence, Italy, where the Europeans are more prevalent. We've toured Italian factories in person and Spanish and British factories online. We work with freelance designers who've toured shoe factories all around the world. At $495, these shoes are a steal.
> 
> ...


Is the Hopkinson available made to order (or, as Allen Edmonds employees call it, custom)?


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## mreams99 (Jan 7, 2015)

No Allen Edmonds shoes are available as a "made to order" or "custom" order. That program was discontinued earlier this year. 
I'm hugely disappointed.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

doodledoc said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> Please don't take "look a lot better" to mean that the SLs above to mean SLs are superior. I was referencing the look of the shoe. While that's a response that can be understood in many ways, I was referencing the shoe shape, not the quality of the materials nor the construction. In my opinion, the SL above is a sleeker shoe than PA, strand, mcallister, and kenilworth. These are AE shoes that I have either tried on in store or personally have. I am confident that AEs will last much longer than SL, but I find that the pair of SLs above would be better looking than the AEs that I have tried on or worn. Just my opinion.
> 
> I am sure the 201 last is very nice. If it is styled and as sleek an Italian or European shoe, I will consider it. But in my experience, except for AE's 333 last, I am not a fan of AEs last as I prefer the sleek look. And I do agree above with CL Tesquire. Carmina's Rain last is a pretty last. I have a pair and I like them very much.


I certainly understood your comments to be constrained to aesthetics in terms of drawing a comparison with AE. And I wholeheartedly agree that the SLs do indeed look a lot better. The lines and proportions are excellent, IMO.


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

I guess I just missed Paul's earlier post. I'm still of the opinion that a Carmina, when they were $340 or so, was a better choice than an Allen Edmonds shoe...the normal line that is. I don't have any experience with the Independence Collection but it sounds nice. The looks are better than the main line in my opinion but I don't understand the rigid adherence to using a 360 welt. A 270 would really make the heel look better. I'm curious how they'd stack up to Carmina, Bonafe, or C&J. They're all more or less around the same price point.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

mreams99 said:


> No Allen Edmonds shoes are available as a "made to order" or "custom" order. That program was discontinued earlier this year.
> I'm hugely disappointed.


The lady at AE customer service said some shoes are still available MTO and some no longer. She didn't say which 1s are and aren't.

However, she did say that the only customizing that can be done is sizing (6-16 in length and AAA to EEE in width) and soles (no special designs, leather, etcetera). According to this AE CSA, full MTO services, as before will be available again in early 2016, but only for certain models. She once again didn't say which 1s will and will not be.


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## LoboLaw1984 (Nov 2, 2016)

The online pictures don't do them justice. I have them and they are actually beautiful.


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

doodledoc said:


> upr_crust actually has a pair of those. Perhaps he can chime on on those.
> 
> Looks like I found the same pics that you posted: https://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2015/09/septieme-largeur-new-adelaide-oxford.html
> 
> https://www.thefineyounggentleman.com/shoes/septieme-largeur/ (I think the author of this blog is a tool, so I personally take what he says with a mountain of salt).


I have two pairs of Septieme Largeur shoes, though not the Alexandre model. Here's what I own, in photos:





The austerity wingtips are on their 224 last, which is a bit wider than their usual dress shoe last of 199, on which the side-gore slipons were made. (I had to go up a half size for the side gore slipons to be comfortable for me to wear.)

In terms of construction, I strongly suspect that AE's are more solidly constructed than are the Septieme Largeurs, though, ironically enough, of the two pairs of AE's I own, neither was manufactured in the US - one pair of black horse-bit loafers, and one pair of brown AE Seven wing-tip derbies, both made in Italy. Pictures below:

AE Sevens:



Black horsebit loafers:



In terms of styling, I personally prefer the Septieme Largeurs, hence my ownership of them.

I also found it ironic that Septieme Largeur and Markowski are connected in some way (as per the blog referenced above), as I tried Markowski's shoes on my last trip to Paris (a head-long day trip from London, courtesy of Eurostar). My one experience with trying on Markowski's shoes was that there was a strange bump directly under the right arch of both pairs of the same shoes I was interested in buying (they were black wholecuts), and, running out of time, I had to run up the hill to the Gare du Nord empty-handed. I finally satisfied that need with a pair of Magnannis on sale from Bergdorf Goodman, as shown below:


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