# Charles Tyrwhitt Ties and shirts "Made in China"



## Alan (Jun 30, 2005)

Well I read the info here that CT were making product in China but didn't believe it until a tie arrivied today and there it was on the label Made in China. I have nothing against "Made in China" as that is the way the world is going for everyday price driven product. But to find a so called leader in english clothing now making product in China and their pricies still high I find disgusting. Sorry CT you've lost my business unless the price comes tumbling down to reflect the cheap labour your using. Have the fabrics been taken down a few grades as well? 

I'm not sure the bottom statement applies anymore. This is taken from the bottom of their website "a great English company for suits, fine cotton shirts, ties, cufflinks and shoes".


----------



## Bracemaker (May 11, 2005)

I recall a group menswear buyer ( not from Tyrwhitt / Wheeler Higgins - we do not currently supply them) asking me BEFORE we showed him the range whether our products were made in England. I confirmed they are, and he then refused to look at the range as "they are bound to be too expensive and we will be unable to make our normal 350% margin".


----------



## SimonC (Nov 15, 2006)

The very fact that they can still turn a profit selling discontinued-pattern shirts for £20 ('supposedly' £79 originally) gives some indication of the sort of margins they are making. Though I don't know if anyone actually pays £79.

Nonetheless, they are still a better shirt than the sort of thing you'd buy in Marks & Spencer for £20.


----------



## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Gentlemen*

Gentlemen,

I have known this about CT for some time. I think a lot of the Jermyn shirts also do this.
I know TM Lewin still does not go overseas with their shirts.
I think the only one that still does their own shirts, is Budd.
Sorry about this.

Nice day


----------



## SimonC (Nov 15, 2006)

> I know TM Lewin still does not go overseas with their shirts.


Really? They used to state where the shirt was made on the inside label, but they no longer do - I presumed this meant they were made overseas.


----------



## Henry (May 4, 2006)

I'm pretty certain TM Lewin make their shirts abroad...


----------



## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

I know a fellow in Pakistan that makes shirts for many of the Jermyn street shirt companies. It is an excellent shirt for the price.

Made in Chinais even cheaper but not as well made. If they are using chinese made fabric, that shirt before shipping costs CT less then $10. Price will be much higher if they use Non chinese made fabric. 

Carl


----------



## mack11211 (Oct 14, 2004)

Why the hate?

The Chinese are getting better and better at making clothes at all levels.

If you want a cheap English style shirt, why must it be made in England -- or even Western Europe for that matter? 

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

I'm sure, that in the Good Old Days of Empire, English labor was more exploitable. Now it isn't.


----------



## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Shirts*

Gentlemen,

With me, it is not that I dislike China, or wherever. Shirts, if I have any of them, are made in China. They are crap, very cheap.
As compared to Europe, they are a better quality shirt, for the price.
Shirtmaven brings up a good point, some are made in Pakistan, and are nice.
My experience, with clothing made elsewhere, is the same for most of us here.
Brooks sweaters, when made in Mozambique, for instance and so on.
Anyway, a depressing thing, for me.

Nice day


----------



## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

mack11211 said:


> Why the hate?


Nobody used the word "hate" or anything like it - don't go reading things into the comments that are not there.


----------



## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Exactly. It's not the origin, it's element of something masquerading as something it's not.


----------



## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I haven't purchased anything from CT in a year or so, but from comments in previous posts it seems the outsourcing hasn't been a happy development in terms of quality.

Which is a shame, because I really like a lot of the patterns in their catalog, and the prices are certainly right. The six shirts I do have are all going strong.


----------



## jsherman02 (Oct 9, 2006)

I understand the points and arguments that a English company should produce their own shirt, but look at all the brands out there. There are very few that actually produce their goods in their country.

As for CT, their quality is junk. I used to purchase their shirts and every last one of them fell apart of shrunk too much to be worn. I also hand wash all my shirts, so there is no cleaner or presser involved. I have had to go up alomost a full size in the neck with CT due to their inferior quality.

I have 3-4 year old dress shirts from Nordstrom, that still fit as they did the day I purchased them!


----------



## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

I haven't seen any "Made in China" CT ties, but they did send me a couple of shirts with "Made in China" on the labels (oddly, they never list any other country of manufacture).

The shirts were objectively, verifiably of poorer quality than other shirts I've bought from CT in the past (I own quite a few).

As I've posted previously, they were plainly ill-cut, with sleeves proportionately too small and attached to the body at an awkward angle that caused uncomfortable binding as soon as I raised my arms to the height they would be at for activities such as driving a car. Moreover, the collars were flimsy-feeling, as if lined with substandard material.

I have nothing in particular against goods made outside the UK, or made in China. But when quality suffers, how can one not object?

Goods made in Britain are nearly always marked as such; if you buy something from a British clothing retailer and it lists no country of origin, you can be pretty sure it was made outside the UK (and yes, this goes for T.M. Lewin shirts--sorry, Jimmy).

T&A still has all its shirts made in England; H&K makes many shirts still in Britain (its factory is in Scotland); H&H makes many shirts still in the UK as well (possibly in Ulster).

While I've been a mostly satisfied Tyrwhitt customer for years, I'm so unhappy over the "Made in China" crapshoot (you won't know if a shirt is one of these subpar jobs till you open the box) that I won't buy anything now except the Sea Island Quality shirts, as I'm fairly confident they're not making those in China--at least not yet.

I wrote Mr. Wheeler, the owner of Tyrwhitt, an email pointing out these quality problems with the Chinese-made shirts and am still awaiting a reply.


----------



## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

PJC in NoVa said:


> As I've posted previously, they were plainly ill-cut, with sleeves proportionately too small and attached to the body at an awkward angle that caused uncomfortable binding as soon as I raised my arms to the height they would be at for activities such as driving a car. Moreover, the collars were flimsy-feeling, as if lined with substandard material.


This was my recent experince as well - I ordered two of their tattersall wool/cotton blend shirts (they were both made in China) and I returned them both after trying them on. They were oddly constricting about the shoulders when I moved my arms and as you said, there was something not right about the way the sleeves were attached.


----------



## Alan (Jun 30, 2005)

PJC in NoVa, I can tell you the ties are not the same as the use to be. They feel like a cheap alternative. I understand companies have to make a profit but if they are poorly made with cheap cloth by cheap labour then the price should reflect this. I too will only buy their sea island cotton shirts (on deep discount) and since reading this forum buy T M Lewin for every day wear. Yes Lewin maybe made in China or an eastern european country but the quality and fabrics are set at a good price. 4 shirts for 100 pounds is fair. CT if you want people to contuine to purchase your products set your prices to were they should be.


----------



## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I don't have a problem with cross-border trade and companies going to China, but I care for companies like CT who like to hide where the products are produced by implying they are made in London.


----------



## Henrik RS (Jan 10, 2006)

I find it a little disturbing that CT claims to make/sell "the best shirts in the world". Their fabrics might very well be most refined, but that has little to do with the overall quality of the final product.


----------



## leica (May 13, 2008)

Please delete posted on wrong thread


----------



## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

I purchased a cashmere scarf, and a tie from CT in January. The tie states "woven and made in England." The scarf is also made in Scotland, I believe.


----------



## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

I have no problem buying things made in China. I do have a problem paying a near four-figure percentage markup on something. If they are going to sacrifice quality I expect to see a precipitous drop in price. I won't hold my breath. They're wasting the rest of the catalogs they're going to be sending me.


----------



## lichMD (Jun 30, 2005)

*CT made in China*

I don't mind buying clothes made anywhere in the world, when traveling.
I bought MTM shirts in India,OTR in Morocco, OTR in Costa Rica and Argentina.
But I dislike buying clothes that purport to be from one place and are made in another.
I stopped buying shirts from CT about 3 years ago, when Shirtmaven showed me what my money could buy. I've almost cycled all the CT shirts out of my closet. Wouldn;t dream of paying CT prices for a shirt made in China.


----------



## CharlesAlexander (Apr 21, 2008)

Wow, I can't believe this. This is sad.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I have come across media reports that textiles from China are often contaminated with chemicals that are carcinogenic and banned everywhere else. They are sometimes banned in China too but industrial laws are poorly enforced there. In Japan there were deaths from food processed in China. 

Can you really afford to buy cheap Chinese goods?


----------



## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

Sator said:


> I have come across media reports that textiles from China are often contaminated with chemicals that are carcinogenic and banned everywhere else. They are sometimes banned in China too but industrial laws are poorly enforced there. In Japan there were deaths from food processed in China.
> 
> Can you really afford to buy cheap Chinese goods?


I remember something like that on one of our Current Affairs TV programs some months ago, it was scary.
Trouble is buying anything other then made in China is a near impossibility as anyone in Aus will know.
Sure there are custom makers but at custom prices as well and it's still also a matter of actually getting in to see them to make an order even if budget allows.
All my uniforms are supplied, they are only polyester/cotton blends or polyester/wool blends and there is not even anything on them to say where they are made.

There is probably a lot to be said for scourcing your clothes from op-shops, they will have had quite a few wearings and washings before I get to them so hopefully all the bad stuff will have long gone.

But it is bad when really we have no easily available/affordable choice in our clothing over here.

Mychael


----------



## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Goods made in Britain are nearly always marked as such; if you buy something from a British clothing retailer and it lists no country of origin, you can be pretty sure it was made outside the UK (and yes, this goes for T.M. Lewin shirts--sorry, Jimmy).
> 
> T&A still has all its shirts made in England; H&K makes many shirts still in Britain (its factory is in Scotland); H&H makes many shirts still in the UK as well (possibly in Ulster).


+1. The origin of Jermyn Street products is a minefield if you are seeking British manufacture.

Thomas Pink's Prestige range is made in the UK (probably in Ulster too). Benson & Clegg sells Cleeve shirts that are made in Somerset IIRC. Budd's shirts are made in its own English factory. Emma Willis's shirts are made by Rayner & Sturges in Gillingham.

Emma's ties appear to be made by Drake's. T&A's ties are made in its own South London Factory. The CT website says that its seven-fold ties are made in England.

90% or more of the braces (TML, T&A etc) are made by Albert Thurston.


----------



## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> +1. The origin of Jermyn Street products is a minefield if you are seeking British manufacture.
> 
> Thomas Pink's Prestige range is made in the UK (probably in Ulster too). Benson & Clegg sells Cleeve shirts that are made in Somerset IIRC. Budd's shirts are made in its own English factory. Emma Willis's shirts are made by Rayner & Sturges in Gillingham.
> 
> ...


Or you can go to Russell & Hodge, 5 mins stroll from Tottenham Court Rd., watch your shirt assembled in front of you, and have no questions at all about its provenance.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Why on earth is there no law in the UK stopping retailers from selling Chinese shirts under the name of "Charles Tyrwhitt Jermyn St" etc? Are there any lawyers here with a knowledge of the relevant laws? It strikes me as blatent deception.


----------



## Journeyman (Mar 28, 2005)

Sator said:


> Why on earth is there no law in the UK stopping retailers from selling Chinese shirts under the name of "Charles Tyrwhitt Jermyn St" etc? Are there any lawyers here with a knowledge of the relevant laws? It strikes me as blatent deception.


Sator,

You struck the nail on the head with your first sentence.
Quite simply, in the UK, there is no law against it.
I'm not sure why this is, although I suppose it might have a little to do with the European Community - enforced labelling of country of origin could perhaps be perceived as discriminatory. That's just speculation on my part, though. As others have stated, where items are made in the UK, the tag usually states that as it perceived to be of benefit in marketing the goods.


----------



## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

It is not illegal for the same reason that "Harrods Knightsbridge" can sell products sourced from around the world, not only from Knightsbridge, Greater London, England or even the UK. With Tyrwhitt, the only thing implied here is that the company has, or at some point had, a presence on Jermyn Street, London. In many European and non-European jurisdictions, it is even possible to register a trade name or trade mark with, say "Thomas Pink of Jermyn Street" or "Savile Row Tailors" without having nexus in the address implied. By the time Pink, in its current shirt merchant incarnation, finally came to Jermyn Street, it was their third shop after Fulham and Mayfair. It is important to note that none of these trade names actually claim, whether implicitly or explicitly, about the origin of the offered products.

As for the country of origin label being discriminatory, yes, its fundamental reason for being is to enable consumers to be discriminatory in their purchasing decision. This is not an EC thing; it tends to be quite universal. In most jurisdictions, the label is only required if the product is exported / imported. Domestically produced products being sold domestically usually do not require a label, for in many jurisdictions it is then legally assumed that it was produced domestically and therefore is exempt from having the label affixed. Many sellers will include, for example, a "made in England" label even if it is being sold in England: this is usually not for legal reasons but for marketing reasons.

It is also important to note that most jurisdictions define country of origin as the country in which "major transformation" or "significant value-adding process" took place. That means, if Tyrwhitt used dioxin laced shirting made in China and then cut and sewed the shirt at a factory in England, it would be considered made in England. 

When Alex Kabbazz makes shirts using Swiss or Italian shirtings, they are made in the USA. When Noina Hober makes ties using English silk and Italian wool interlining, they are made in Thailand. And so on and so forth.

Either way, there is a risk in reading too much into a given trade name or a country of origin label and making assumptions about the products. Also, there is a risk in assuming that a proper shirt, made in England with legal workers being paid fair wages, can be had for CT prices.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

misterdonuts said:


> It is not illegal for the same reason that "Harrods Knightsbridge" can sell products sourced from around the world, not only from Knightsbridge, Greater London, England or even the UK. With Tyrwhitt, the only thing implied here is that the company has, or at some point had, a presence on Jermyn Street, London. In many European and non-European jurisdictions, it is even possible to register a trade name or trade mark with, say "Thomas Pink of Jermyn Street" or "Savile Row Tailors" without having nexus in the address implied. By the time Pink, in its current shirt merchant incarnation, finally came to Jermyn Street, it was their third shop after Fulham and Mayfair. It is important to note that none of these trade names actually claim, *whether implicitly or explicitly*, about the origin of the offered products.


The difference is that a product from Harrods usually does not carry a label stating "Harrods Knightsbrige". A Tyrwhitt shirt however does carry a label stating "Charles Tyrwhitt Jermyn St". If that is not an _*implicit*_ claim as to its origins what is? Ditto for "W.W. Chan, Hong Kong" or "Turnbull & Asser, Jermyn St"


----------



## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Harrods have literally sold millions of teddy bears, tote bags, aprons, stationery, assorted souvenirs, honey, marmalades, plethora of tea et al sourced from around the world with "Harrods Knightsbridge" on them, sometimes all over the given product. But then, you would not have known if you have never been to Harrods. If you have, you would have to be blind or illiterate not to have noticed.


----------



## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

Sator said:


> Why on earth is there no law in the UK stopping retailers from selling Chinese shirts under the name of "Charles Tyrwhitt Jermyn St" etc? Are there any lawyers here with a knowledge of the relevant laws? It strikes me as blatent deception.


It would only be blatant deception if the tag said "Made in England" and the garment was actually manufactured in China. The name of the company ("Charles Tyrwhitt Jermyn Street") might be misleading but it's not necessarily illegal. Case in point: Cuban cigars cannot be legally imported into or sold in the U.S.; however, many makers of handmade cigars in the Dominican Republic, Honduras, Nicaragua and elsewhere (whose products are mostly made for the U.S. market) utilze names like "Habana Gold", "Vuelta Abajo", "Cuba Aliados", etc.that specifically evoke Cuba. The labels of such cigars usually don't state that actually country of manufacture, and might only indicate that they were "imported".

LD111134, Esq.


----------



## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

FWIW, the problematic CT shirts of mention were plainly labeled "Made in China" on the big rectangular label sewn inside the yoke. These were the first CT shirts I had ever received (out of dozens bought by mail over the years) that even had a country of origin label, so I definitely noticed.

Since then I have received CT shirts (including some in Sea Island Quality 140s fabrics) labeled as made in Egypt or Peru. These shirts have all been fine, with the good fit (for me) that I had come to expect from CT.

FTR, I did receive an e-mail a while back from a rep at CT telling me that they were aware of all the complaints about the Chinese-made shirts, and had stopped having shirts manufactured there b/c the Chinese facilities just couldn't come up to acceptable quality standards (I guess numerous returns of ill-made items got CT's attention).

Having shirts made in Egypt or Peru seems logical since both countries are known for growing high-quality, apparel-grade cotton. I've also found Ike Behar shirts labeled "made in Peru" to be of acceptable quality, albeit a cut below the best IB shirts, which are made in Canada.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I make a poorly prepped joke about Sabu the Elephant boy and I'm a racist. Now the Bishop of Briggs speaks of minefields. It's not the country of assembly or manufacture or even current political or even health and safety concerns that people care about. It's that near intangible quality of native genius and even 'tradition' we seek, something familiar and trusted without real cause, like some pasty faced brit taxi driver with an old Norman name like Bucket ( it's Bouquet.) I can go on EBAY and get snowed under by the cut and pasted history of Harris Tweed. But 90% of the time that unmistakeable product has been thrown together by Shoddy and Sons LTD of Lompoc California and not worth the BUY IT NOW price of 29.99. Ah, but put a bespoke hacking jacket up from the UK and look at the price difference. I'm going to brew a cuppa in my MADE IN ENGLAND Sadler Brown Betty. I've got this guy coming over to trade Enfields. I recently acquired an Ishapore India Smelly in .308 ( improved metallurgy.) He has this Birmingham Best MK 3*1 with an IRISH FREE STATE stamp and brass unit disk he doesn't know the meaning of. Which one is inherently better? Why the Birmingham job of course! At least on Saint Patrick's day for beating off Free Staters with the old long bayonet. I've got some rounds somewhere, if that lousy cordite still works after 60 years.


----------



## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

YYZ-LHR said:


> Or you can go to Russell & Hodge, 5 mins stroll from Tottenham Court Rd., watch your shirt assembled in front of you, and have no questions at all about its provenance.


I have seen mixed reports about that firm on The London Lounge Forum. If I was choosing a bespoke shirtmaker, Sean O'Flynn of Sackville Street would head the shortlist.


----------



## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

At least two of the "lesser" Northampton shoe brands cut the leathers and manufacture the uppers in India/China and finish the shoe in the UK. They are therefore able to stamp "Made in England" on the sole. 

A well-known Italian menswear brand follows the same practice. The suits are made in China but finished in Italy. The company adds a label "Made in Italy". 

Sator should note that this is legal according to EU law. EU law will, after ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, have supremacy over national laws in Member States. :devil:


----------



## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> A well-known Italian menswear brand follows the same practice. The suits are made in China but finished in Italy. The company adds a label "Made in Italy".


Unfortunately, there are plenty of firms that are pushing the envelope on the definition of "major transformation" or whatever essential characteristic being used to judge the country of origin. Some are engaging in very elastic interpretations, to put it charitably. Others are engaged in outright fraud. Both sorts are especially common in Italy across all sorts of product categories, so much so that if all such claims of "made in Italy" were true with respect to products being exported from Italy, Italy's GDP would be larger by several factors, based on additional wages alone. That is why, if I were to make a purchasing decision EXCLUSIVELY on the basis of country of origin label, then I will gravitate towards a "made in China" label rather than a "made in Italy" label simply because the former is, at a bare minimum, honest. But then, I have never made a purchasing decision based only on the country of origin.:icon_smile_big:


----------



## CPVS (Jul 17, 2005)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Goods made in Britain are nearly always marked as such; if you buy something from a British clothing retailer and it lists no country of origin, you can be pretty sure it was made outside the UK (and yes, this goes for T.M. Lewin shirts--sorry, Jimmy).


Is this also true for Harvie & Hudson ready-to-wear shirts purchased from their website? Sorry to be thick if this is obvious or has been dealt with earlier; I did a search and came up empty.


----------



## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

CPVS said:


> Is this also true for Harvie & Hudson ready-to-wear shirts purchased from their website? Sorry to be thick if this is obvious or has been dealt with earlier; I did a search and came up empty.


There is no way that H&H can charge £30 for a British-made shirt with MOP buttons and sell it in Jermyn Street at a profit. Other members have posted that H&H's RTW shirts are made in Asia.

Thomas Pink charges £89 for its UK made Prestige range. T&A starts at £95 for RTW.

I have reluctantly agreed with other posters that it is unlikely that H&K makes all its shirts in the UK. My guess is that the full-price shirts, and those made for other retailers, are made in Glenrothes and that a lot of stock is made abroad for the sale-by-mail at £45 per shirt.


----------

