# OCBD shirts



## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

I need a few new OCBDs, probably 1 white, 1 blue, and 1 pink. I am going to avoid non-irons. I'll probably catalog order through BB, LE, or Bean. I would like slim-fit shirts because of my build. What are everyone's thoughts on each company's offerings. The LE and Bean shirts are much cheaper than BB, but is that forsaking quality? These shirts will get good use since I work in a bank and usually wear OCBDs on the weekend as well.


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## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

Also, are there any other offerings I should consider?


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Unfortunately, I think you just missed the 3 for $149 price at Brooks Brothers, which is really probably the best bang for your buck. While there are a lot of inferior products at Brooks nowadays, their OCBD's are hard to beat.


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## Andersdad (Oct 23, 2006)

I really like the LE offerings. I have a few of the trim fits, but they have discontinued that line. They now offer "tailored fit". I think they are a great value at $20.


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## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

Yeah, I saw that, but I probably won't end up needing the shirts until March so I didn't pull the trigger. Everyone seems to praise the BB shirts, but at full price are they that much superior to LE or Bean?


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

SC_tigerfan said:


> Yeah, I saw that, but I probably won't end up needing the shirts until March so I didn't pull the trigger. Everyone seems to praise the BB shirts, but at full price are they that much superior to LE or Bean?


Superior to Bean, absolutely. The LE Hyde Park oxfords are the closest approximation, but IMO they are not as good as the Brooks shirts. How much are you willing to spend? Depending on the features you want, you can get three Mercer OCBDs for under $200, with the first-time buyer's 25% discount.


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## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm fine with spending $75 for Brooks shirts since they have such a good reputation and they offer a slim fit. I was hoping that LE or Bean would have a shirt of similar quality at a reduced price. I probably won't spend the price for the Mercer now - BB is probably my upper limit.


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## Pgolden (May 13, 2006)

For the money, especially when they go on sale, it's hard to beat the BB. I also have LE regular and Hyde Park. I like them both, but the quality isn't equal to BB. However, the LE's are fine if you'd prefer not to spend so much money.


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## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

What is the difference between regular LE shirts and the Hyde Park version?


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

The bean shirts aren't offered properly sized in non-non iron any more. It's a bummer but it eliminates one of the options at least. 
The BB shirts feel a bit better, the collar and cuffs and the fabric in general are softer. I haven't worn mine enough to be able to determing durability. I'm 130 washes into my standard LE OCBD (not hyde park) so I think it's going to take me a few years at least to wear out my BB. 
Do you tend to wear through shirts quickly? If they're only going to last a couple of years then I'd save the bucks and go with LE, I don't think there's any vast differences in durability between the hyde park and BB. If your shirts tend to last half a decade or more and you really get time to enjoy them in their old age then the slight difference in feel between a BB and an LE might be worth it. As my shirts seem to last a REALLY long time I'm going to spring for a few Mercers the next time I order.


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## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm pretty easy on them so they will get a long life. I don't dry clean, just wash, hang dry and iron. I've got 2 JAB OCBDs that have 4 years on them and are just beginning to fray.


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

Ok, let's say you get 200 wearings out of a Hyde park or BB or Mercer. Not unreasonable for any of them barring any accidents during their life. 

LE Hyde Park - $29.50 - 14.75 cents per wearing. 
BB OCBD - $75 - 37.5 cents per wearing. 
Mercer - $85 - 42.5 cents per wearing. 

None of that figures in sales or discounts or the likelyhood of one shirt lasting longer than another. From a simple standpoint is whether it's worth the extra 23 cents a day for a BB over a Hyde park and if you get that far is it worth the extra nickel for the Mercer. 
As I stand at the shirt rack in the morning I'd gladly throw a quarter at my LE shirt to magically turn it into a BB shirt considering I'm going to have it agianst my skin for the next 16 hours or so. This all assumes that money isn't really the main point other than spending less is always preferable to spending more. 
Good long lasting trad gear just doesn't cost much over the long run. I can be in a pair of Bills and a Mercer, boxers and socks for less than $1 a day. For the cost of a coffee I can top off the outfit with a blazer, a nice bow tie and probably a pair of cordovan shoes. The initial investment is steep but the low lifetime cost and high enjoyment factor of nice clothes makes it all worth it.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

I like BB ocbds, but my first choice would be J. Press. I just really like the flap pockets on their shirts.


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## Andersdad (Oct 23, 2006)

Hey Familyman - Can you explain that to my wife


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## JohnnyVegas (Nov 17, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> I like BB ocbds, but my first choice would be J. Press. I just really like the flap pockets on their shirts.


Y'know, now that I have grown to love the unslim appearance of most of my shirts, I think I might start replacing my older shirts with J Press or Andover Shop. Not enough love is given to J Press I think!


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

Andersdad said:


> Hey Familyman - Can you explain that to my wife


No, I can't even explain it to mine. 

I do think I understand why great trad wardrobes are largely inherited though. Unless you have a big lump sum of money that you really can't figure out what else to do with, wardrobe building takes time.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

SC_tigerfan said:


> What is the difference between regular LE shirts and the Hyde Park version?


The fabric of the Hyde Park shirt is more substantial. I find the regular oxfords a bit skimpy for my tastes.


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## Pgolden (May 13, 2006)

egadfly said:


> The fabric of the Hyde Park shirt is more substantial. I find the regular oxfords a bit skimpy for my tastes.


Exactly right. However, in summer the regular LE OCBD can be a blessing.


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## JohnMS (Feb 18, 2004)

*OCBDs*

I have tried countless OCBDs over the years. In recent years I had gravitated towards Nordstrom (although now I don't believe they make an oxford cloth shirt) and Jos Bank. I was getting used to Jos Bank a bit and then tried a BB OCBD and it convinced me that it was the shirt for me. Since I was very young, I can recall loving a good collar roll in a shirt, but when trying to describe that feature in department stores I was met with blank stares. A few months ago I bought some LE Hyde Park shirts and they were ok, but not like the Brooks. You can try a Brooks OCBD for a good price on eBay. $25 with shipping isn't unusual, but at least it would give you one to try at a lower cost.


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## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

John, I agree with you, a good collar roll is important. My JAB shirts have lost a good roll when worn with a tie. After reading this I'll probably go with the BBs, especially after reading familyman's description of the per wear cost. I will wear these as long as they hold up so it probably is worth the extra cost for BBs, especially if I get a family member to buy them for my birthday. Also, JPress sound good, I just don't go for the flap pocket. I can appreciate it as a different look, a regular pocket is just my personal preference.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

With both the BB and LE shirts (Hyde Park model) hanging in my closet, my choice these days seems to be, decidedly BB. My last half dozen or so OCBD purchases have been the BBs...they just seem to feel better when you wear them, definitely worth the additional 25 cents per wear, cited by familyman.


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## GMC (Nov 8, 2006)

*Mainly weight*



SC_tigerfan said:


> What is the difference between regular LE shirts and the Hyde Park version?


The regular oxford cloth is about a 4 oz. weight, whereas the Hyde Park comes it at about 5.25 oz. That puts is just above the Brooks and Bean. It's one of the most substantial weights out there. It generally holds a press better than the regular LE oxford. Neither shirt is made with Pima (the finest U.S. cotton), but both have collars whose linings are stiched together (good) rather than glued, and both use single-needle tailoring throughout (also good). Even before they went all non-iron, the Bean oxfords weren't what they used to be: less-expensive double-needle stiching on the sides, fused collars, extremely short tails. But they were Pima made, and generally still looked the part.

(NOTE: Respectfully, there's widespread misunderstanding about fabric weight. The heavier gauge of the Hyde Park doesn't make it hotter. In general -- obviosly a thick woolen shirt is going to be hotter than an airy 180-thread count cotton -- what counts here is the weave. Oxford cloth is a lose weave. It breathes well. A pinpoint is a tighter weave.)


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Anyone here wear the Polo "Big Oxford"? I remember Harris was quite keen on them, but don't think I've ever seen one in person. Are they even still available (given the ephemeral quality of most of PRL's lines)?


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## JohnMS (Feb 18, 2004)

GMC makes a good point about weight. I too contacted LE regarding the weight of their shirts and it seems that based on information obtained that the LE Hyde Oxford weighs more per square yard of material. However, in feeling the weight and hand of each, LE and BB, the Brooks to me seem heavier to me. Also, I like to iron my OCBDs and find that the BB shirts hold a press better than LE.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*OCBD*

Gentlemen,

I agree with JohnMS, for all my years Brooks, happens to be the better Button down shirt.
I just hate, when they make them in places I dont know about.

Let me suggest, as I did some time back in this forum. Look at other shirts. Look at TM Lewin, H&K and so on.
Their sales, you can do a nice job with shirts. TM Lewin does the best deal, even now.
Shirts, clothing are going way up. I am shocked at the prices. Especially Brooks.
Also, load up as you can, when on sale.

On top of the Brooks, I like the Polo oxford, from years ago. Their shirts are not the same .
Take your time, do outlets also

Have nice weekend gentlemen


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## DownSouth (Jun 30, 2005)

*Hello, fellow Tiger fan!*

I don't know where in SC you are, but I frequently stop on I-85 in Commerce, GA, at the BB outlet store. I've picked up several OCBD's there for around $49.50; all cotton, Made in USA. I think they're regular fit though.
Sleeve sizes are like 32/33, 34/35, etc. However, I'm a 35 so I just bought the 34/35 and removed the button that tightened the sleeve to 34" and it has worked fine. These are excellent shirts.
There's an outlet in Gaffney, SC, also but I've not been to the BB store there.

PS That Music City Bowl really stunk, huh? Did I hear somebody say new coach?


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## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm in Greenville, but probably won't make the drive to Gaffney and instead order from the catalog. 

I'm just exhausted from the end of football season. I'm also a Falcons fan so things went completely downhill for me after October. Bowden will be around for at least another year I guess - to be honest I haven't kept up with things since the bowl game. I'm taking the Duke/UNC attitude of focusing on basketball since we've finally got a decent team.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

familyman said:


> Ok, let's say you get 200 wearings out of a Hyde park or BB or Mercer. Not unreasonable for any of them barring any accidents during their life.
> 
> LE Hyde Park - $29.50 - 14.75 cents per wearing.
> BB OCBD - $75 - 37.5 cents per wearing.
> ...


Familyman-as an inveterate number cruncher, I like your style both in clothing and in explaining why the most expensive clothing we own is the stuff that sits in the back of the closet or in the bottom of the drawer and doesn't get worn. As I replace my wardrobe over the next two years I'm ruthlessly going quality over quantity and instead of 20 pair of mediocre khakis will get four or five Bill's twills, three poplins and three cords.

Your point is well taken and it extends not just to clothing but other areas of our lives as well. A few good friends instead of innumerable acquaintances.

Last, a very belated wish for you to get well soon. Saw the post on the fire and tried to respond but for some reason I can't post from work so I didn't go onto AAAC at home til tonight. Almost 40 years ago I was a young savings and loan teller supervisor and decided to sneak a smoke in the vault downstairs. I spoked regular Camels and used a Bic lighter. As I put the cigarette in my mouth and put my head down to light it, a wall of flame came out because the flame adjuster had broken and I didn't know it. I burned most of the hair on the front of my head and my eyebrows and lashes took a pretty good toasting. I can relate to how frightened you must have been and hope the pain subsides and you get well soon. FWIW the short hair looks good but what do I know-just an old traditional devotee but one who's long past judging by hair length or any of the other external stuff that most seem to find so important.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

I have become a great BB OCBD fan. Through ebay ($40 or so shipped)and the 3 for $149 sale, the shirts are a great value. I do want to try the Mercers, but at 2x the BB sale price, I just cannot think that they are 2x as good. I do think that I will try them eventually, but have just purchased 4 more BBs on the sale, and so have little need to spend the $ on more....


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## Tom72 (May 8, 2006)

$0.02: Parsimony drove me to experiment with cheap shirts. I found the LE cuffs will not go over even a slim watch on my wrist, and it irks me too much to pay the tailor lady to move a button on a $20 shirt. So I am back to BB, and quite happy again.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

BB slim fit would be my strong choice, too, but I have had great luck with Polo Ralph Lauren's Yarmouth. The logo/no pocket feature is no issue, as I always wear it under a blazer. Cut is fairly slim. Yarmouth retails at $70ish at Lord and Taylor, not the bargain it had been at $55 only recently. They do have a way of popping up at TJ Maxx or Marshalls. The shirt wears like iron and keeps its shape. Bill


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## Tom72 (May 8, 2006)

familyman said:


> "...As I stand at the shirt rack in the morning I'd gladly throw a quarter at my LE shirt to magically turn it into a BB shirt considering I'm going to have it against my skin for the next 16 hours or so..."


Well said, Familyman, the subjective pleasure (not limited to feel) from selecting and wearing one shirt as opposed to another is impossible to quantify.

I might add that my unwed brother assures me that he has a girlfriend(s?) that insists he wear a BB OCBD shirt to their trysts, so that afterwards she can wear it around wherever it is they tryst at. I really don't want to know more about it.

I, on the other hand, celebrated a 26th wedding anniversary yesterday, and am pleased to say that a discussion of our respective clothing expenses has never really occurred in that span. An armed truce, I expect. Jewelry is entirely different matter.

Familyman, I was distressed to learn of your misfortune, and will keep you in my prayers. Your exposition of the shirt cost "per wearing" was excellent example of the thoughtful perspective you bring to this forum.

Yours,


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

I have a handful of LE's regular and Hyde Park OCBDs in trim or tailored fit and they're fine for what you pay. I find myself wearing them more and more, on the weekends especially & since I now have a BB store w/in an hours drive I might break down and try some from them one of these days.

Brian


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

To go in the other direction...Bean has pima cotton OCBD's for 16.95 on sale right now...they are only sized S,M,L and I was super skeptical but I saw them in the Bean store today and for casual wear [no tie of course due to lack of precise neck measurement] they are a pretty insane deal.

I got a pink one and a blue one. For anyone that orders one online, I would suggest the french blue over the reg blue. The french blue is more like a normal blue [it's not dark like french blue elsewhere], the reg blue is very pale.

Danny


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

I know that this could go in the Thrift thread, but yesterday I ran across a Bean OCBD (blue) that was made before the non-iron shirts they use today. It was a 15.5/35. A friend of my brother's works at this particular store and is holding it for me, so...if anyone's interested, I think it's $10. PM me if you like...

TT


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## SC_tigerfan (Dec 5, 2006)

Tom, thanks for the heads up on the cuff size being small. My black leather band watch has a thick face and that would be a problem. I currently have a shirt that has small cuffs and not only can I not wear the beautiful watch, but I think the cuffs aren't as good looking as a natural fitting cuff.


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## acogbill (Jan 4, 2007)

*J. Press?*

Recently I've also been looking for an OCBD. How are the J. Press shirts? What are their sizes like?

Oh, and by the way, I'd been lurking for a while but when I saw this thread I had to ask. The Ask Andy fora are wonderful! :icon_smile:


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## Joe Hache (Sep 11, 2005)

Last year after I started working full-time, I took the plunge and took a reccomendation from some of the members here to by a couple OCBDs for my wardrobe. I bought Mercer shirts, my first OCBDs, using the first-time buyers discount. I highly reccomend them; I have gone back since, and I definitely think they're worth it.


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## JDDY (Mar 18, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> I like BB ocbds, but my first choice would be J. Press. I just really like the flap pockets on their shirts.


I like the Press pocket as well, but the collar is just too stiff. I go for Brooks on sale.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

acogbill said:


> Recently I've also been looking for an OCBD. How are the J. Press shirts? What are their sizes like?
> 
> Oh, and by the way, I'd been lurking for a while but when I saw this thread I had to ask. The Ask Andy fora are wonderful! :icon_smile:


Acogbill: Welcome to the forum! Sorry I don't have personal experience with J Press OCBDs however, I do harbor a decided preference for BB OCBDs. BB OCBDs are all I am buying at this point...they are well made and are fairly priced, given the quality of the shirts. When bought at discount, in my book, they represent very good value! Again, welcome to the forum!


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## Barrister (Nov 2, 2005)

*LE Hyde Park...*

I have to put a plug in for the Land's End Hyde Park. I'm a big fan. Beefy fabric, generous cut, good collar roll, great colors, excellent price. For the money, it's tough to beat. Plus, if you don't like 'em you can return them to your local Sears.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FYI: LE says they just switched their cotton in regular finish ocbd to a higher quality. If you are considering LE vs. BB now might be a good time to try them again.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

The prices are ridiculous, but the Ben Silver OCBD is vastly superior to BB in every way. There are some weird sizes for $40 on the outlet section of the Web site now. I bought mine in Charleston during the annual August sale for about that much. It is one hefty shirt. I have not yet tried Mercer.

I like the $19.95 LE, especially in the summer. I have six of them.


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*Yes, the Ben Silver shirts are really nice...*

I have one Ben silver "beefy" oxford and it is the best oxford I own. Better than my Mercers, my jPress shirts, my many BB's and on a par with the old gitmans I used to wear back in the day.

It pre-dates their "royal" oxford fabric but I don't know exactly how old it is. It has a very full body, full sleeves and wonderful collar roll. I've seen a few beefy oxfords on the b-s website in their outlet section. I can't seem to find them in their normal stock these days. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

I'd better get motivated and see if I can track some more down...

Markus


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

Overall, a Ben Silver shirt is not cut as fully as one from BB. The cut is probably sufficient for 95% of their customers, thus the extra expense of cutting their shirts more voluminously to satisfy the other 5% would not be justified. For those of us that prefer a very full cut, oh well. 

The body size of a J Press shirt is closer to BB than to BS. However, the arms in a J Press shirt are cut trimmer than either, to the point where I have to go up 1 size in a J Press shirt to get one that fits my upper arms arms. I suspect this matter is a proportionally unique issue to J Press. Whenever I find a shirt from another maker that fits in the collar and body, the arms fit as well. Not so with J Press. 

Fabric in either shirt is less substantial than a made in the USA BB OCBD from a retail branch. I have not tried a Lands End Hyde Park.

FYI- the winter BS wharehouse sale begins on Friday. Ostensibly at 5pm, but if recent history can be a guide, the front door will open as early as 3pm, or when Mr. Prenner sees a line forming. So get there early for best selection ! 

Best,

Ross


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

Ditto about Press. I'm normally a 34" though I think their 35" shirts would fit me better.


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

I've had shirts from Cable Car (yawn), Norman (defunct, unfortunatley), Lands End (i haven't had one since 1980), Mercer (i own only two), Bean (you get what you pay for), but I keep going back to Brooks Brothers. It's the soft collar, the roll, the medium heft, full cut, length of collar, etc. ... they offer the perfect storm. My affinity (not necessarily loyalty) may simply be because of habit and 25+ years of wearing them. I might be too much of a creature of habit. 

Mercer offers a great alternative -- made in Maine, which is a positive -- but I just don't get the right collar roll with them. I like Mercer's cotton and buttons and fit and customer service (i.e., how often do you get to talk to the owner of the company?), but the sum doesn't quite measure up to the Brooks shirt. I'm simply offering an opinion ... others here are more educated about this stuff than I am.


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*My experience re: BS vs. BB differs...*



rl1856 said:


> Overall, a Ben Silver shirt is not cut as fully as one from BB. The cut is probably sufficient for 95% of their customers, thus the extra expense of cutting their shirts more voluminously to satisfy the other 5% would not be justified. For those of us that prefer a very full cut, oh well.
> 
> The body size of a J Press shirt is closer to BB than to BS. However, the arms in a J Press shirt are cut trimmer than either, to the point where I have to go up 1 size in a J Press shirt to get one that fits my upper arms arms. I suspect this matter is a proportionally unique issue to J Press. Whenever I find a shirt from another maker that fits in the collar and body, the arms fit as well. Not so with J Press.
> 
> Fabric in either shirt is less substantial than a made in the USA BB OCBD from a retail branch.


Based on this post I got out my tape measure and took a closer look at my BB, Mercer and BS ocbd's. Here is how things stacked up in my closet:

distance from seam to seam, across back of shirt at bottom of armpit:
BS = 28 inches
BB = 27.5

Distance from seam to seam, across back of shirt at bottom, at top of tails:
BS = 27.5 inches
BB = 26.5 inches

Just out of curiousity, I measured length of the collar points, from collar band to tip of collar.
BS = 3 and 3/8
BB = 3 and 1/4
Mercer = 3 and 3/8
vintage BB = 3 and 1/2

Also, in my experience the BS beefy oxford is thicker than BB, though BB is thick enough to satisfy.

Please don't get me wrong. I wear more BB ocbd's than anything else. It's just that I'd love a closetful of BS's if they still made 'em and I could afford them.

Markus


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

^ That's excellent info. Thanks. My next shirt might be from Ben Silver.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

I like long points, like the ones offered by Mercer and Ben Silver, but, isn't collar roll as much about button placement as it is about collar lenght?


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

Septa,

Yes, I think so. I think what we can reason is that the best manufacturers think about collar roll enough that when they produce a shirt, length of the collar and button location work together so it looks right.

Markus


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

Markus said:


> Based on this post I got out my tape measure and took a closer look at my BB, Mercer and BS ocbd's. Here is how things stacked up in my closet:
> 
> distance from seam to seam, across back of shirt at bottom of armpit:
> BS = 28 inches
> ...


Intrigueing data and thank for taking the time to investigate.

I have not measured; my post was based upon how the shirts feel upon wearing. All of the shirts "fit" me, however BB shirts are more comfortable due to their unique cut. I based my post upon how each shirt fits me.

Best,

Ross


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

*brooks vs Mercer length*

the measurements were great and helpful...
I would be curious to know the length of a B2 vs Mercer vs BS- who has the longest tails?
should one measure the length of the shirt from center(below collar to end of tail)
I have pet peeve about shirts that lack long tails.,,
thanks

Max


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