# Filson "De-contenting" Signature Items



## Birdsnest (Nov 19, 2012)

So, my wife presented me with a new Filson Mackinaw Wool Vest this Christmas. This of course, if one of their signature pieces, and together with such items as the Mackinaw Cruiser and canvas luggage, established their reputation over a period of more than a century. One would imagine they would be loath to damage their brand equity and highly protective of their “might as well have the best” reputation. Apparently this is far from the case. As I sat digesting my superb Christmas dinner I absent-mindedly began to examine my new vest. Hmmm, I thought, the inner seams binding front to rear panels, along the sides and inner shoulders, feel strange, as if I can feel raw fabric edges. I don’t recall feeling that with my other Mackinaw vest, one approximately two years old. So, I removed my present and began to compare the two, old to new. Again, my older vest is only two years old – not decades. I found the differences between the two shocking to say the least. My two year old vest features true flat felled seams binding the front to rear fabric pieces. The new vest still has two rows of stitching, but the seams are not true flat felled. Instead the seam is rolled once, with a totally raw fabric edge exposed.

I then began to look more closely at my “new” vest. Where were all the bar-tacks, which I recalled dotted the extended patches of fabric which serve as hand-warmer and chest pockets? My “old” vest features an abundance of bar-tacks, five on the right side and seven on the left, which includes the divided top pocket. And my new vest? A total of one bar-tack is sewn on each side, at the lower pocket opening. There is zero reinforcement elsewhere on the panels. Now I expect such de-contenting from cheap over-seas sourcing, but both of these vests are made in USA. And again, these are signature pieces, at the very foundation of their quality heritage, founded on their motto of “might as well have the best”. Well, the new Filson is clearly no longer delivering on that pledge. Instead they seem to be following the common lead of removing value, while steadily increasing price. I know their recent product introductions appear to value fashion more than form, but this development is very distressing. Filson has lost me as a customer, and I would imagine I am not alone -- disappointing to say the least. Your thoughts?


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## mu2482 (Mar 4, 2013)

Interestingly, I'm in the market for a briefcase and was about to research leather vs canvas, specifically a Filson on here. I'll be watching this thread with interest.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Birdsnest said:


> So, my wife presented me with a new Filson Mackinaw Wool Vest this Christmas. This of course, if one of their signature pieces, and together with such items as the Mackinaw Cruiser and canvas luggage, established their reputation over a period of more than a century. One would imagine they would be loath to damage their brand equity and highly protective of their "might as well have the best" reputation. Apparently this is far from the case. As I sat digesting my superb Christmas dinner I absent-mindedly began to examine my new vest. Hmmm, I thought, the inner seams binding front to rear panels, along the sides and inner shoulders, feel strange, as if I can feel raw fabric edges. I don't recall feeling that with my other Mackinaw vest, one approximately two years old. So, I removed my present and began to compare the two, old to new. Again, my older vest is only two years old - not decades. I found the differences between the two shocking to say the least. My two year old vest features true flat felled seams binding the front to rear fabric pieces. The new vest still has two rows of stitching, but the seams are not true flat felled. Instead the seam is rolled once, with a totally raw fabric edge exposed.
> 
> I then began to look more closely at my "new" vest. Where were all the bar-tacks, which I recalled dotted the extended patches of fabric which serve as hand-warmer and chest pockets? My "old" vest features an abundance of bar-tacks, five on the right side and seven on the left, which includes the divided top pocket. And my new vest? A total of one bar-tack is sewn on each side, at the lower pocket opening. There is zero reinforcement elsewhere on the panels. Now I expect such de-contenting from cheap over-seas sourcing, but both of these vests are made in USA. And again, these are signature pieces, at the very foundation of their quality heritage, founded on their motto of "might as well have the best". Well, the new Filson is clearly no longer delivering on that pledge. Instead they seem to be following the common lead of removing value, while steadily increasing price. I know their recent product introductions appear to value fashion more than form, but this development is very distressing. Filson has lost me as a customer, and I would imagine I am not alone -- disappointing to say the least. Your thoughts?


You might consider sending your observations and impressions to a Filson customer service rep. I'd be interested in knowing how they respond. I'd like to think they'd hate to start losing long-time customers by cutting corners.


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

gamma68 said:


> You might consider sending your observations and impressions to a Filson customer service rep. I'd be interested in knowing how they respond. I'd like to think they'd hate to start losing long-time customers by cutting corners.


I would let Filson know about it. Try to get your dissatisfaction known to someone in upper management, preferably a Vice President.

You could make a video, and post it on YouTube. That would really get their attention.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

I would just give them a call. Then take it from there.


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

maximar said:


> I would just give them a call. Then take it from there.


Yes, call them first. However, calling customer service may not result in upper management knowing what's going on "down below." I've worked for companies where front-line managers did their best to hide problems & customer dissatisfaction from upper management.

Making a video for YouTube would be a last resort.


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## Birdsnest (Nov 19, 2012)

Obviously I could call customer service, and I’m sure I know the logical outcome of that inquiry. They would offer to refund my purchase price, and be content in the thought that they would close this transaction with a satisfied customer. But that is not the point. I doubt they will alter their apparently now-changed manufacturing specifications based on a single complaint. And to be frank, I don’t want my money back. I want the best damn wool vest that Filson can make. That is what I could buy two years ago, but not today. Perhaps there are other complaints. Perhaps not. I suspect, with their new styles, Filson dollar sales are at record levels. The bigger issue (for me), is the corruption of their underlying value proposition.

Filson has traditionally stood SOLELY on the principal of unyielding quality, with price effectively a non-issue. When you shop Filson, you do not seek fashion, you do not seek high-tech artificial fibers, you do not seek lightweight goods, you do not seek price, you seek, quality. To compromise on quality is to compromise on the very reason for your corporate existence. Filson goods have never been value-priced, nor would you ever expect them to be, because for their core customers, price is not (beyond reasonable cause) an issue. We are completely willing to pay a premium price, for the premium quality we seek. THAT is what the Filson customer values. I think I speak for many when I say that we are sick of the shoddy goods that pervade other sectors, where one spends more in the long run, perpetually replacing items which break, or last but a few months, where with a modicum of added crafting and manufacturing content, they could last for years. For example, does anyone here not doubt that a $325 pair of Allen Edmonds, which can easily last 20 years, are not a far better buy than a $60 pair of Chinese shoes that last a year? Of course not, but then here you are preaching to the choir, the SAME choir which is the traditional Filson customer base.

When your corporate value proposition is based on a 100 year tradition of unyielding quality, why would you remove quality and then expect customers not to notice and continue to pay your premium price? These small retreats down a slippery slope are why it takes generations to build a business, and one generation to destroy it. I am sorry for the preaching. It’s fueled by some good single malt. I’ll just go and get my $135 back. I just wish I could buy (even for more money -- are you listening Filson?) a vest like they used to make.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Birdsnest said:


> Obviously I could call customer service, and I'm sure I know the logical outcome of that inquiry. They would offer to refund my purchase price, and be content in the thought that they would close this transaction with a satisfied customer. But that is not the point. I doubt they will alter their apparently now-changed manufacturing specifications based on a single complaint. And to be frank, I don't want my money back. I want the best damn wool vest that Filson can make. That is what I could buy two years ago, but not today. Perhaps there are other complaints. Perhaps not. I suspect, with their new styles, Filson dollar sales are at record levels. The bigger issue (for me), is the corruption of their underlying value proposition.
> 
> Filson has traditionally stood SOLELY on the principal of unyielding quality, with price effectively a non-issue. When you shop Filson, you do not seek fashion, you do not seek high-tech artificial fibers, you do not seek lightweight goods, you do not seek price, you seek, quality. To compromise on quality is to compromise on the very reason for your corporate existence. Filson goods have never been value-priced, nor would you ever expect them to be, because for their core customers, price is not (beyond reasonable cause) an issue. We are completely willing to pay a premium price, for the premium quality we seek. THAT is what the Filson customer values. I think I speak for many when I say that we are sick of the shoddy goods that pervade other sectors, where one spends more in the long run, perpetually replacing items which break, or last but a few months, where with a modicum of added crafting and manufacturing content, they could last for years. For example, does anyone here not doubt that a $325 pair of Allen Edmonds, which can easily last 20 years, are not a far better buy than a $60 pair of Chinese shoes that last a year? Of course not, but then here you are preaching to the choir, the SAME choir which is the traditional Filson customer base.
> 
> When your corporate value proposition is based on a 100 year tradition of unyielding quality, why would you remove quality and then expect customers not to notice and continue to pay your premium price? These small retreats down a slippery slope are why it takes generations to build a business, and one generation to destroy it. I am sorry for the preaching. It's fueled by some good single malt. I'll just go and get my $135 back. I just wish I could buy (even for more money -- are you listening Filson?) a vest like they used to make.


Write a letter directly to the Filson company head. Actually, you can cut and paste most of what you wrote here. Ideally, the company head will respond to you. Please let us know what response you receive.


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## Monocle (Oct 24, 2012)

The resurgence of premium brands, and "Made In America" along with premium pricing, feels an awful lot like a bubble to me. The number of consumers willing to pay premium pricing for premium value may not be enough to offset the number of fickle and trendy wallets, with no brand loyalty. Corner cutting could be one result of this disparity. I hope I am wrong. But I have been disappointed with many of my old favorites too in recent years.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

When I click on the Filson Mackinaw Wool Vest link in the first sentence of the OP…it takes me to an ebay listing. Is that a random link or is that where the 'new' vest was purchased from? If so, did it occur to you that it might be a counterfeit Filson? I am not saying it is...I am just saying that is a possibility if you notice a huge difference between one purchased from Filson and one from eBay.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I'm not sure what a call to customer service would accomplish. Surely, Filson knows how their garments are made. They have, apparently, made a business decision to dial back on quality and count on label snobs to keep the cash coming in. Don't be a label snob--you are right to return the vest and start looking for something better that meets your expectations. Quality stuff is out there, it's a matter of finding it, which isn't always easy. You might want to start out with a call to Ethan at O'Connell's. If he doesn't have something that will work for you, he might be able to point you in the right direction. Sometimes, the best stuff comes with obscure tags.

If you paid a Filson price and got less than Filson quality and you keep the garment anyway, then you are helping perpetuate an exploitative business model. Return it with a letter explaining why you want your money back and if they respond, they respond. If they don't, well, that also speaks volumes.

As for whether the OP's vest is counterfeit, below is from the Filson website, and from what I can see, the photo comports with his description. Interestingly, the vest has a "New" tag on the website, as if it is a new product. That might be Filson's way of saying "re-designed."


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## Fraser Tartan (May 12, 2010)

Wouldn't surprise me if Filson reintroduces the original version as some sort of "heritage edition" for three times the price, initially only available in Japan and then in selected boutiques in America where the bearded salesmen wear man capris (in Tin Cloth).


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> ... They have, apparently, made a business decision to dial back on quality and count on label snobs to keep the cash coming in. Don't be a label snob...


The OP doesn't seem like a label snob. He sounds like someone who has come to expect a certain level of quality from Filson, just as I, and many others, have come to expect a certain level of quality from Allen Edmonds, and from certain other brands.


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## Birdsnest (Nov 19, 2012)

As for whether the OP's vest is counterfeit, below is from the Filson website, and from what I can see, the photo comports with his description. Interestingly, the vest has a "New" tag on the website, as if it is a new product. That might be Filson's way of saying "re-designed."

[/QUOTE]

I agree.

The links to text are added by Ask Andy's web site logic. I assume you I simply cut and pasted un-adorned text from word processor software. The vest in question is genuine - it was not purchased directly from Filson but from one of their major mail-order purveyors. It is not a replica or fake. As another has pointed out, if you zoom-in on the sample pictures now posted on the Filson web site you can observe the lack of bar-tacks (now showing only two on the front). I can also assure you that my very recent vintage vest sports fourteen bar-tacks. Perhaps they were un-needed, but I would prefer they remain. After all, I "might as well have the best". I thought I was paying for such.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

Right that's what I thought, the forum software creates the weird links.

Well it's perfectly possible that Filson redesigned the vest…if the price is lower than it used to be then perhaps some degree of simplification is justified in an attempt to meet a price point and find a broader market. If the price is the same as it used to be then I agree it's a sort of shoddy move.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

There is a Filson customer service department supervisor registered to the site who goes by the name "Scottmb3." He showed up in a previous thread I started about my dissatisfaction with the design of another Filson classic; the double-mac. You can read it and see his replies here:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...-better-than-Filson&highlight=filson+mackinaw


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

Stubbly said:


> I would let Filson know about it. Try to get your dissatisfaction known to someone in upper management, preferably a Vice President.
> 
> You could make a video, and post it on YouTube. That would really get their attention.


I second the video idea. I think it's far more useful to do a side-by-side comparison showing the flaws in your new vest, this way you can dissuade potential buyers from purchasing this particular item. If you put it up on youtube it'll be up there for _everybody _to see, not just the customer service department at Filson, who may or may not resolve the issue. I know i'd be pissed if I came to expect a certain level of quality with a brand and found out they were cutting corners, especially Filson since their product is so expensive.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Birdsnest said:


> Obviously I could call customer service, and I'm sure I know the logical outcome of that inquiry. They would offer to refund my purchase price, and be content in the thought that they would close this transaction with a satisfied customer. But that is not the point. I doubt they will alter their apparently now-changed manufacturing specifications based on a single complaint. And to be frank, I don't want my money back. I want the best damn wool vest that Filson can make. That is what I could buy two years ago, but not today. Perhaps there are other complaints. Perhaps not. I suspect, with their new styles, Filson dollar sales are at record levels. The bigger issue (for me), is the corruption of their underlying value proposition.
> 
> ............
> 
> When your corporate value proposition is based on a 100 year tradition of unyielding quality, why would you remove quality and then expect customers not to notice and continue to pay your premium price? These small retreats down a slippery slope are why it takes generations to build a business, and one generation to destroy it. I am sorry for the preaching. It's fueled by some good single malt. I'll just go and get my $135 back. I just wish I could buy (even for more money -- are you listening Filson?) a vest like they used to make.


Should dissatisfied customers simply return merchandise and politely say thank-you very much when monies paid are returned to them, nothing will change. If enough customers complain, they will listen! Have faith!


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Stubbly said:


> The OP doesn't seem like a label snob. He sounds like someone who has come to expect a certain level of quality from Filson, just as I, and many others, have come to expect a certain level of quality from Allen Edmonds, and from certain other brands.


Apologies, I did not mean to imply that the OP is a label snob (which he obviously is not, given his knowledge of clothing and intent to return the garment), although it certainly ended up sounding like that. I meant it more in a generic sense. As some might know, I go to thrift stores a lot and often leave behind very nice stuff that doesn't fit and that I know I cannot even give away because it doesn't have a well-known label. It gets depressing after awhile.

I generally disdain quoting from Wikipedia, but in this case, it's apt:

*"Williams hoped to expand the brand's sales by introducing casual wear and selling to new customers based on Filson's reputation for ruggedness and quality."

*This quote from the then CEO came when Filson was acquired by a PE firm in 2006, and it speaks volumes, I think. Filson has since been acquired by a Texas venture capital firm. Such companies don't care about quality, they care about money and money only. They do not care whether they kill a company so long as the company in question produces sufficient money as rapidly as possible so that they can quickly re-coup their investment. They are not in it for the long term. They do not care about maintaining a company's reputation, they care only about how much they can milk that reputation. This sort of thing has become routine in America. Think of all those brands that were once so good that are now awful. There is nothing wrong with capitalism, but that is capitalism at work.

I'll say it again: A call to customer service is useless under these circumstances. Filson knows full well what they are doing, and they are not going to change their ways simply because folks like the OP who know better call up and complain and return goods. They likely knew that was going to happen when they adopted their current business model. They're betting that the OP will be outnumbered by new customers who care only about the label. I think that's a doomed strategy, but I don't run Filson.

*Postscript*: This is from a June story about Filson that ran in the Puget Sound Business Journal:

_"(A) few months ago, the new owners brought in CEO Alan Kirk, previously senior vice president of global sourcing at both Lands' End and Eddie Bauer. Kirk, 51, helped with global expansion while at Eddie Bauer and also clothing makerMast Industries, which owns brands including Victoria's Secret and Abercrombie & Fitch."
_
What are the odds that Filson will keep up the quality under this new CEO?


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

Ah, too bad.

When a brand is acquired by investors, that's usually pretty much *it* for the brand.

Filson is probably finished as a quality brand; look for it to start turning up on red carpets and in rap lyrics soon.

DH

(Ironic, too, considering that "bow-tie hipsterdom" is on its way out, and these investors almost certainly want to ride that wave).


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> I think. Filson has since been acquired by a Texas venture capital firm. Such companies don't care about quality, they care about money and money only. They do not care whether they kill a company so long as the company in question produces sufficient money as rapidly as possible so that they can quickly re-coup their investment. They are not in it for the long term. They do not care about maintaining a company's reputation, they care only about how much they can milk that reputation. This sort of thing has become routine in America. Think of all those brands that were once so good that are now awful. There is nothing wrong with capitalism, but that is capitalism at work.


True in many cases. Many companies exploit 'label snobs" & uneducated consumers. However, educated consumers know how to find better quality & value.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Stubbly said:


> True in many cases. Many companies exploit 'label snobs" & uneducated consumers. However, educated consumers know how to find better quality & value.


I think there is always a market for quality, but the retailer that satisfies the niche shifts. Eddie Bauer once made really good stuff, they've been usurped by Filson and someone will usurp Filson, presuming it keeps going in the direction it appears to be going. There's probably someone out there making superb mackinaws, or close-to-superb mackinaws, who most folks haven't heard about. They'll see an opportunity and they'll fill the niche. Now, the price of that mackinaw may make Filson look like Walmart, but someone will meet the demand. Call me a starry eyed optimist.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

For whatever it is worth, the new Filson mackinaw vest is still better than the Stormy Kromer vest for the same price. The SK vest has unfinished edges all around, which it did not used to have. At least the Filson iteration hasn't fallen that far... yet.


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## wwilson (Jul 13, 2012)

When my Filson catalogs started showing up with "Seattle Fit", I knew the end was near...(insert " heavy sigh" emo here).


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

wwilson said:


> When my Filson catalogs started showing up with "Seattle Fit", I knew the end was near...(insert " heavy sigh" emo here).


When catalogs started showing up at my house--I've never bought anything directly from Filson--I figured the same.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I noticed when thumbing through the Filson catalog that a lot of items are now made of cloth made in the U.S.A. but pieced together elsewhere. Since it's sale, Filson has just been sliding down the slippery slope. Next stop, they start licensing the name to be made by whomever. There's no practice too pernicious not to be lapped up by B-school driven retailers. There's no long-term sacrifice too damaging to forego a quarterly bump.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

32rollandrock said:


> I think there is always a market for quality, but the retailer that satisfies the niche shifts. Eddie Bauer once made really good stuff, they've been usurped by Filson and someone will usurp Filson, presuming it keeps going in the direction it appears to be going. There's probably someone out there making superb mackinaws, or close-to-superb mackinaws, who most folks haven't heard about. They'll see an opportunity and they'll fill the niche. Now, the price of that mackinaw may make Filson look like Walmart, but someone will meet the demand. Call me a starry eyed optimist.


https://www.johnsonwoolenmills.com

?

It's difficult [for manufacturers to attempt it] for sure, because the cost of what was once maybe $40-60 in the heyday of American textile manufacturing is probably $300-500 now. The fact that all the outsourced goods are exceptionally priced makes American made stuff seem all the more expensive. It is what it is I guess, the world is not static.

What has been creeping up the last 3-4 years [and I find objectionable] is outsourced goods, at premium prices. Like a China-made cotton sweatshirt for $150 or something like that&#8230;this seems common from a place like Orvis these days. Now, I am sure it's a really, really nice sweatshirt, but still, I know what it is and I [at least I can speak for myself] don't want to pay $150 for that.

I see a lot more things made out of cotton in catalogs [recently], and it's my hunch that it's because they are less expensive and can be made to 'look' nicer than they are&#8230;since people are buying with their eyeballs and not their fingers. Cotton is great for some things, but not everything.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Flanderian said:


> I noticed when thumbing through the Filson catalog that a lot of items are now made of cloth made in the U.S.A. but pieced together elsewhere. Since it's sale, Filson has just been sliding down the slippery slope. Next stop, they start licensing the name to be made by whomever. There's no practice too pernicious not to be lapped up by B-school driven retailers. There's no long-term sacrifice too damaging to forego a quarterly bump.


This is exactly what Pendleton, another formerly fine company, is doing. Buried deep in their website is the sentence, "Garment plants are located throughout the world, the United States and in Pendleton facilities in Nebraska." In addition to its reflection of an unsure grasp of geography, this statement is, to my mind, ethically weak. I would have more respect for the company if they said outright that Pendleton shirts are now made in Mexico. I would have retained my existing respect for Pendleton had they continued to make shirts in the US and priced them accordingly. A corporate buy-out cannot be blamed here. The Bishop family remains in active management. Shame on Filson, and Pendleton, too


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> Eddie Bauer once made really good stuff, they've been usurped by Filson and someone will usurp Filson, presuming it keeps going in the direction it appears to be going.


I've been buying clothes from EB for over 10 years. When did EB's quality decline?


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Stubbly said:


> I've been buying clothes from EB for over 10 years. When did EB's quality decline?


A long, long time ago--a lot longer than ten years. They once had the best down garments available. They once outfitted Himalayan and Everest expeditions in the 1960s. The quality really was that high. It's kind of the difference between what the OP said. Old school EB was bar tacked in multiple places and lap seamed and double or even triple stitched. Not anymore.

No mountaineer in their right mind would trust their life to EB these days, although I will say that I found a pretty nice First Ascent down vest at Goodwill awhile back, so perhaps they are trying to get back to their roots, or at least compete with North Face. On the whole, though, I see as much EB as Old Navy in thrift stores these days and I discern no difference between the two.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

And before them, Banana Republic and Abercrombie and Fitch.


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> A long, long time ago--a lot longer than ten years. They once had the best down garments available. They once outfitted Himalayan and Everest expeditions in the 1960s. The quality really was that high. It's kind of the difference between what the OP said. Old school EB was bar tacked in multiple places and lap seamed and double or even triple stitched. Not anymore.
> 
> No mountaineer in their right mind would trust their life to EB these days, although I will say that I found a pretty nice First Ascent down vest at Goodwill awhile back, so perhaps they are trying to get back to their roots, or at least compete with North Face. On the whole, though, I see as much EB as Old Navy in thrift stores these days and I discern no difference between the two.


I only buy EB shirts & khakis. For some reason, EB pants fit me better than most other brands. EB quality is acceptable, but the fit is main reason I buy their pants.

If I need good outerwear, I'll look elsewhere.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Stubbly said:


> I only buy EB shirts & khakis. For some reason, EB pants fit me better than most other brands. EB quality is acceptable, but the fit is main reason I buy their pants.
> 
> If I need good outerwear, I'll look elsewhere.


If it fits, entirely different. Walmart pants that fit are better than Ben Silvers that don't.


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> If it fits, entirely different. Walmart pants that fit are better than Ben Silvers that don't.


A poor fit greatly diminishes the charm of good fabric.

"I only buy EB shirts & khakis."
Correction: The only things I buy from EB are their shirts & khakis.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Stubbly said:


> A poor fit greatly diminishes the charm of good fabric.
> 
> "I only buy EB shirts & khakis."
> Correction: The only things I buy from EB are their shirts & khakis.


I'd go further: A poor fit defeats entirely the purpose.


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> I'd go further: A poor fit defeats entirely the purpose.


True!


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## Scottmb3 (Mar 6, 2012)

Birdsnest said:


> So, my wife presented me with a new Filson Mackinaw Wool Vest this Christmas. This of course, if one of their signature pieces, and together with such items as the Mackinaw Cruiser and canvas luggage, established their reputation over a period of more than a century. One would imagine they would be loath to damage their brand equity and highly protective of their "might as well have the best" reputation. Apparently this is far from the case. As I sat digesting my superb Christmas dinner I absent-mindedly began to examine my new vest. Hmmm, I thought, the inner seams binding front to rear panels, along the sides and inner shoulders, feel strange, as if I can feel raw fabric edges. I don't recall feeling that with my other Mackinaw vest, one approximately two years old. So, I removed my present and began to compare the two, old to new. Again, my older vest is only two years old - not decades. I found the differences between the two shocking to say the least. My two year old vest features true flat felled seams binding the front to rear fabric pieces. The new vest still has two rows of stitching, but the seams are not true flat felled. Instead the seam is rolled once, with a totally raw fabric edge exposed.
> 
> I then began to look more closely at my "new" vest. Where were all the bar-tacks, which I recalled dotted the extended patches of fabric which serve as hand-warmer and chest pockets? My "old" vest features an abundance of bar-tacks, five on the right side and seven on the left, which includes the divided top pocket. And my new vest? A total of one bar-tack is sewn on each side, at the lower pocket opening. There is zero reinforcement elsewhere on the panels. Now I expect such de-contenting from cheap over-seas sourcing, but both of these vests are made in USA. And again, these are signature pieces, at the very foundation of their quality heritage, founded on their motto of "might as well have the best". Well, the new Filson is clearly no longer delivering on that pledge. Instead they seem to be following the common lead of removing value, while steadily increasing price. I know their recent product introductions appear to value fashion more than form, but this development is very distressing. Filson has lost me as a customer, and I would imagine I am not alone -- disappointing to say the least. Your thoughts?


Hi Birdsnest, I sent you a PM, but I wanted to post in here to let everyone know that I just saw this thread and am going to run this up the ladder and see what the story is behind this vest, and if these are in fact changes we have made to this garment. This is the first time I have heard these concerns about the construction of our Mackinaw Vest, and I am also curious about whether or not this has changed recently, and if so - why this change was made. I will update everyone when I am able to get to the bottom of this.



gamma68 said:


> You might consider sending your observations and impressions to a Filson customer service rep. I'd be interested in knowing how they respond. I'd like to think they'd hate to start losing long-time customers by cutting corners.


Absolutely. Producing garments to the highest standards remains our number one priority, and if we did make these changes to the garment, I would also be curious to know why this was done.



Stubbly said:


> Yes, call them first. However, calling customer service may not result in upper management knowing what's going on "down below." I've worked for companies where front-line managers did their best to hide problems & customer dissatisfaction from upper management.
> 
> Making a video for YouTube would be a last resort.


You can definitely rest assured that this is not the case with Filson; everyone at Filson takes quality very seriously, and management takes an active interest in listening to feedback from our customers. In cases where garment design changes have been made, we listen to our customers to make sure that quality is absolutely not compromised. As always, if a Filson garment fails on your or does not live up to your satisfaction, we encourage you to contact our customer service department to make the situation right.



32rollandrock said:


> As for whether the OP's vest is counterfeit, below is from the Filson website, and from what I can see, the photo comports with his description. Interestingly, the vest has a "New" tag on the website, as if it is a new product. That might be Filson's way of saying "re-designed."


For what it's worth, the 'new' designation refers to a new color offering in the Mackinaw Wool Vest.



hardline_42 said:


> There is a Filson customer service department supervisor registered to the site who goes by the name "Scottmb3." He showed up in a previous thread I started about my dissatisfaction with the design of another Filson classic; the double-mac. You can read it and see his replies here:


Yep, I'm still around. I don't have as much time to browse the boards during the Holiday season, but I'm back and will do my best to address any issues you all may have.



Flanderian said:


> I noticed when thumbing through the Filson catalog that a lot of items are now made of cloth made in the U.S.A. but pieced together elsewhere.


I am really disappointed that this is the impression of our current product line, as we have actually increased the number of items we produce in the United States - both in real numbers and as a percentage of our product line. We have made a serious and concerted effort to produce everything in the US that we are able to. We only consider sourcing products outside of the US when they are able to provide a unique benefit to our customers such as unique fabric designs and colors.

Anyways, I'm really sorry to hear that Birdsnest was disappointed with the vest he received for Christmas. I will run this up the ladder and see what I am able to find out about this. In the meantime if anyone has more questions or feedback feel free to shoot me a PM and I will do my best to respond as soon as possible.

-Scott


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Danny said:


> https://www.johnsonwoolenmills.com
> 
> ?
> 
> ...


Chinese factories can now produce a very high level quality product, due to investments and know-how. So they can charge more for them and brands can sell them at higher prices. This, I believe, is good. It should help competition.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Scottmb3 said:


> I am really disappointed that this is the impression of our current product line, as we have actually increased the number of items we produce in the United States - both in real numbers and as a percentage of our product line. We have made a serious and concerted effort to produce everything in the US that we are able to. We only consider sourcing products outside of the US when they are able to provide a unique benefit to our customers such as unique fabric designs and colors.


Glad to see you made your way to this thread, Scott. I have noticed the increase in Made in USA products in recent catalogs. The trend was going in the opposite direction for a bit, but I'm happy to see it's reversing itself. I've even a purchased a few things since that I had abstained from purchasing previously because they were outsourced. However, some of these moves back to domestic manufacturing have resulted in wonky construction and sizing on some items, in my experience. That's to be expected to a certain extent as a result of the changes, though.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing what you have to report on the vest issue.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I was around 30+ years ago and while EB and LL were better then, others made a lot of cheap crap even in the good ol' USA!!


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## Scottmb3 (Mar 6, 2012)

Hey guys, I'm back with some information regarding the issues that were mentioned in this thread. 

I spoke with the production department about the Mackinaw Wool Vest and the issues that Birdsnest has with the one he just received. We aren't able to completely verify the differences in these two vests without actually having them in hand to evaluate, but we do have a pretty good idea of why these are different, based on the approximate timeline of when OP received these vests. The new vest that he received is actually the standard Mackinaw Vest design that we have used for many years, and the one from two years ago is actually the deviation from our normal process. The differences in these two designs essentially boils down to producing these vests in the best way possible, without spending too much additional time on features that will not significantly improve the life of the product.

The first vest that he received a few years ago was most likely from a batch of vests that were produced by a vendor that we work with in the US to help us meet demand when we are unable to produce these vests as fast as demand comes in, something like an overflow manufacturing facility. They have done superb work for us in the past and are completely able to meet the high quality standards that we demand of our outside contractors. When they produced these vests, there were a few production runs in which they did double-fold the seams, but this ended up being problematic and taking much longer to produce than anticipated. The thickness of the seam when it is double-folded makes it much more difficult to sew, and our vendor had trouble producing these in a timely manner. 

The additional number of bar-tacks is similarly related as well, the additional bar-tacking makes these vests take longer to produce, while generally not enhancing the life of the garment significantly. When we receive an item in to our returns department, we take note of where the product has failed, so we are able to make changes to our designs and manufacturing processes. The truth is we really do not get many wool items returned for seams failing, the most frequent returns are for tears in the middle of the fabric when someone has gotten their vest/jacket snagged on something. Like most things, we have to make decisions that will make our garments as durable as possible, but without spending too much time on features that will have less of an impact on overall durability. To spend a lot longer sewing features like additional bar-tacking when we don't usually see many failures that this would prevent is typically not economical to our customer. In addition, all of our items are guaranteed for life, so if you have a vest that does end up failing for any reason, we are more than happy to either repair or replace it for you. 

Anyways, I hope this sufficiently addresses the issues that were mentioned in this thread. If anyone has any more questions or concerns, feel free to let me know.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Hey Scott, mind if I ask you a question? I was given a duffel and a satchel from y'all by my father a number of years back, in the classic tan canvas and brown leather. We've put a hard ~30 years on these guys across 6 continents between the two of us and they've held up wonderfully well. 

They do each have an incredibly tiny repair needed, though. For the duffel, I've lost a zipper pull somewhere along the way and on the satchel there's a tiny hole about the size of a pencil eraser along an upper seam. In the case of the zipper pull, it's more of an annoyance than anything and with the satchel I just want to catch it early if there's a chance it's going to get worse. Should I go ahead and send them both in, or should I get these minor repairs done at an acceptable place locally? I'd imagine that the zipper pull would be an especially easy repair if y'all'd be willing to send me a replacement.


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## Scottmb3 (Mar 6, 2012)

By zipper pull, do you mean the metal tab that hooks onto the zipper slide, or the leather string that ties onto the tab? If it's the latter we can definitely send you a replacement right away. If it's the former, we can still probably send you a replacement piece for it, but I'm not sure what the process is for repairing that part in particular. For the satchel, we can definitely send out a small piece of leather that can be used to patch up your bag. To repair that I would probably take it to a cobbler in your area to make the actual repair, but we would be happy to supply the materials. You are also welcome to send both items in to us for repair, but it would probably be easier and faster for you to get the materials from us and have it repaired locally. 

Shoot me a PM and we can discuss the details on how you want to proceed with the repairs.


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