# Wear a Tie with Your Sportshirt!



## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

And -









Is it Trad? Yes, and it's a lot of things. Sophisticated sartorialists from multiple eras have worn ties with casual/sports shirts for smart casual wear. Though the look likely originated among English shooting parties, it reached it's greatest development in the stewpot of American sportswear, and could be found being worn by the cognoscenti of different eras from 1930's through the 1980's. It was worn with everything from Madras plaid summer shirts to heavy flannels of cotton, and even wool. Ties worn often knit, and could be cotton, silk or wool, but wool challis prints and stripes, and even many others could be worn to good effect.

It was a staple on Ivy campuses both before and during the Trad era. And even yours truly sported such things in his youth. (And still does in his dotage! :icon_pale

I can particularly remember Rooster brand ties from the 50's & 60's and how well their unusual and sophisticated design lent themselves to this mode. They had colorful solid cotton knit ties for wear with Madras plaid summer shirts, and wool knits for winter in heavier cotton twills. I had, and wore both. And I also remember a line they introduced in the mid '60's named Ruffler. Many of these were bright cotton prints on home-spun like cloth, imprinted with Caribbean type wood block prints, or other brightly colored similar prints. Worn with a solid color twill shirt, and solid blazer with one of these ties, you were *SNAZZY!*


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Indeed. Let there be color. Mad Men has done the nation no favors by pushing us back into grey suits with white shirts and narrow black ties. The drudge in the grey flannel suit was and remains a drudge. No one but a very junior accountant should dress so. The rest of us should know better.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Michael Hill, of Drake's, does navy-on-navy _and_ tie-with-madras perfectly at the same time.


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## Enrique Shockwave (Jan 17, 2014)

I could see myself wearing something like that this summer. I like ties, even in casual settings. It just has to be done right.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Tapered white denim? I think not.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> Michael Hill, of Drake's, does navy-on-navy _and_ tie-with-madras perfectly at the same time.


A fine lad indeed!









But we yanks do this thing better!


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Pentheos said:


> Tapered white denim? I think not.


I once had a similar pair of jeans, I'm embarrassed to say. :redface:

But white jeans were very much a part of the Ivy look. Pinched, skinny jackets, not so much.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Quite a bit of linen was used to make that jacket...:smile:


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> Michael Hill, of Drake's, does navy-on-navy _and_ tie-with-madras perfectly at the same time.


I personally don't care that much for either of those looks. Left = pick another tie color, dude; right = has any of that stuff been pressed since the Clinton administration? And think about getting those trousers hemmed.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I don't care for madras--period. And while I love colors I definitely wouldn't wear a tie with that shirt. As for the rumpled gentleman on the right, there is such a thing as casual-ty.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

I am OCD about buttoning my SC when I stand up / get out of the car / etc. I button my jacket every time we stand up to sing a hymn in church. When I look at this picture that is the first thing I think of; button those jackets! I like white pants a lot and I do wear white chinos so I don't have a huge problem with the white jeans and I actually do like the tie /shirt combo. The guy on the right is apparently just dressed for comfort, not style... and he needs to button his jacket.


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## dkoernert (May 31, 2011)

Barnavelt said:


> I am OCD about buttoning my SC when I stand up / get out of the car / etc. I button my jacket every time we stand up to sing a hymn in church. When I look at this picture that is the first thing I think of; button those jackets! I like white pants a lot and I do wear white chinos so I don't have a huge problem with the white jeans and I actually do like the tie /shirt combo. The guy on the right is apparently just dressed for comfort, not style... and he needs to button his jacket.


I'd be surprised if either one of them could actually button their jackets. They look awfully small.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

dkoernert said:


> I'd be surprised if either one of them could actually button their jackets. They look awfully small.


That's my biggest problem with 'em -- though I don't button my jacket all the time. I actually kind of admire the restraint shown with the navy-on-navy tie, but I admit that it might be even better with a madras with a little more of a neutral color, and a tie that picked up on a secondary color in the shirt. Even then, it's perhaps not the "safest" choice, and probably not what David Isle was thinking of when he wrote that article.

Tapered white jeans are pants that say GTH to the GTH crowd. Those are a bit on the tight side, but at least the jacket's silhouette is in keeping with them. I like the light blue socks, but I don't like that I see so much of them. The dude on the right is a little bit like the "before" photo in an ad selling collar stays and suspenders. I don't mind that the linen is wrinkled, but the trouser length is an issue. I like what he's done with his square.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

You've finally gone too far.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> I actually kind of admire the restraint shown with the navy-on-navy tie, but I admit that it might be even better with a madras with a little more of a neutral color, and a tie that picked up on a secondary color in the shirt.


I think either knit silk or knit cotton would work best with the cloth of the jacket. Probably, cotton, maybe pale yellow, or even a pale corral. If navy, I might try this tie (Square end, please!) -


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

The guy on the left has too fine of a dimple to allow me to believe that he was going for a little sprezzatura with the longer back blade. I don't favor intentional carelessness.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If the sport shirt is properly sized to one's neck and sleeve size, no reason it can't be worn with a tie. I think certain patterns that work well as sport shirts may be too busy with ties though.



Oldsarge said:


> Indeed. Let there be color. Mad Men has done the nation no favors by pushing us back into grey suits with white shirts and narrow black ties. The drudge in the grey flannel suit was and remains a drudge. No one but a very junior accountant should dress so. The rest of us should know better.


I really like you man, but... we need to stop with the sort of rhetoric that a certain colour combination that works perfectly fine is "wrong" simply because we don't like it. There's plenty of room for clothing aficionados to be as extravagant or quiet as they want, which is the beauty and enduring appeal of tailored clothing to this day. If you actually watched the series, you'd see there's far more variety than that anyway.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

One can certainly do so, but why? If you want to wear a tie, pull on a dress shirt and save that sport shirt for those more relaxed moments!


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

I tend to wear a lot of pattered dress shirts with suits and sport jackets. But they are dress shirts NOT sport shirts.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> One can certainly do so, but why?


Mainly because some sport shirts can offer much more in the way of pattern and color to play with than dress shirts typically do. I'm not suggesting that they be worn with more formal suits in lieu of dress shirts, but the *correct* sport shirt can offer greater creative opportunity to combine with casual ties and country clothes such sport coats, and even casual suits, as rare as the later are.

To some degree, the division of shirts into dress and sport shirts is an artificial construct as there are colorful patterned dress shirts and plain sport shirts. And attempting to dress attractively while wearing a sport shirt with a tie entails selecting components that are consonant in their degree of formality. I.e., a cutaway collared shirt of fine white broadcloth with French cuffs would be as out of place and unappealing worn with an unconstructed Harris Tweed sport coat, as a worn, plaid flannel shirt would be with evening clothes. Selecting the exact degree of formality can be tricky, but that is part of the fun.


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> *... The drudge in the grey flannel suit was and remains a drudge. No one but a very junior accountant should dress so. The rest of us should know better.*


Old Sarge: I frequently enjoy your comments, but in this case you are giving bad advice. That's not a good thing for a Moderator to do.

Here's the Chairman of the Board and CEO of Goldman Sachs in a Grey Flannel Chalkstripe. He may be, in your opinion a "junior accountant," but his restricted stock compensation in 2013, as granted by the Board of Directors, was $14.7 million. Of course, that does not include his cash compensation which, in 2012, was an additional $21 million.



Here's a photo of Jamie Dimon, head of JP Morgan, in a Grey suit, I'd be happy to provide his financial compensation, if you'd like. It, too, is stratospheric.



They may be "junior accountants," since you assert that only "junior accountants" wear Grey flannel suits. However, if these two guys represent the going rate for junior accountants, would you be so good as to point me toward an accounting firm that offers compensation like this to junior accountants?

On the other hand, you might prefer more evidence that heads of Management consulting firms and Law Firms find comfort in Grey flannel suits, I'd be happy you provide that as well.

We all make mistakes - I more than most! As a gentle suggestion, perhaps you could say it was a throwaway line gone wrong, modify your comments and move on to new topics.

Bill


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I stand chastened . . . with the proviso that though for certain very serious occasions like addressing the board of directors such men are well served by grey flannel, do they wear nothing else? I have my doubts. My concern is that too much emphasis is being placed on appearing neutral. I could be wrong. I, too, have been before. Or it could just be my Left Coast orientation. When in New York dress like a New Yorker. Out here things tend to be different. Perhaps it's the extra sunshine.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

I notice both Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Dimon are wearing bright, colorful ties in those photos ...


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Billax said:


> Here's the Chairman of the Board and CEO of Goldman Sachs in a Grey Flannel Chalkstripe.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a photo of Jamie Dimon, head of JP Morgan, in a Grey suit,











*BANKERS!*

That alone would be reason not to wear grey flannel, if it didn't look so darn good.

(BTW, I think the top suit likely a worsted, and can't make much of the second.)


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Oh, by all means wear a grey suit . . . with a colored shirt, a bright tie, a sparkling pocket square, boutonniere and wild socks. Use the suit as a ground, not as the defining mode.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

To be entirely clear, I am not suggesting that sport shirts are the only choice with ties for country/casual clothing, and are generally not an option at all with dressier clothing. Sport shirts worn with a tie are an exception when a little extra fun is desired. I went looking for additional images of this principle, and acknowledge it's a lot easier to find examples done poorly than examples done well. A couple of the later that may serve to be instructive -









Done well in it's entirety, the casual knit consonant with the mood of the shirt, all colors and shapes in harmony. I'd add a discreet PS and be a happy man.









Not a success, but illustrative of several important principles. Notably among which is the natural affinity of tartan and tweed, reason enough to wear a sport shirt with a tweed jacket or even suit. This one's a bit snug, the color of the tie is fine, but skip the affected velvet bow and replace it with a wool knit of the same color, and delete the overdone boutonnière and elaborate holder, substituting an harmonious, discrete PS. This illustrates another principle; when wearing a vividly colored item, particularly the shirt, it's usually better looking to keep the remaining articles low key.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I especially agree with your judgement of the second photo. The shirt and jacket combination are first rate. But a velvet bow tie? With tweed? Absurd. A knit in that color would be splendid. And while I am a great fan of boutonniere's, the nearly white tie formality of that one with that jacket makes me shudder. With a tweed jacket a boutonniere should be a wild flower or a sprig of holly. Perhaps an acorn or two bound with an oakleaf. Even if he is attending a country wedding that thing is 'way over the top.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Flanderian said:


> To be entirely clear, I am not suggesting that ties be worn only with sport shirts, even with country/casual clothing, and generally not at all with dressier clothing. It's an exception when a little extra fun is desired. I went looking for additional images of this principle, and acknowledge it's a lot easier to find examples done poorly than examples done well. A couple of the later that may serve to be instructive -
> 
> View attachment 10365
> 
> ...


Meh. I don't like anything about the second photo. But the first one's a peach.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Call me crazy, but I prefer the second photo. The first photo includes a shirt that looks more at home with Bean Boots and a shearling jacket than a coat and tie. Velvet bow tie (would have been better as wool) and fussy looking boutonniere vase notwithstanding, the second example works better since it echoes the timeless light shirt and dark tie combo which always manages to look more elegant.



Oldsarge said:


> Oh, by all means wear a grey suit . . . with a colored shirt, a bright tie, a sparkling pocket square, boutonniere and wild socks. Use the suit as a ground, not as the defining mode.


Currently wearing a grey chalk stripe flannel with white shirt, navy tie, white TV fold pocket square, black belt and shoes. "Come at me, bro."


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

More examples can be found both historically from a period I remember as extending from the late '50's to early '60's, (AKA, the sweet spot of Trad.)









(Love the classic dark shirt and light jacket! :devil

And more contemporaneously from the esteemed blogger Maxminimus which I do believe features ADG himself -









Note pronounced "fuzzy" aesthetic. (This is the real thing boys and girls!)

Arguments that in fact the checked shirt is a dress shirt will be entertained . . . . and dismissed. Nah, it's a sport shirt! :icon_cheers:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I have a similar blue gingham check shirt that I wear with or without a tie, with or without a jacket. I don't know what to classify it as. It occupies that same sweet spot between dress and sport just like an OCBD.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Jovan said:


> I have a similar blue gingham check shirt that I wear with or without a tie, with or without a jacket. I don't know what to classify it as. It occupies that same sweet spot between dress and sport just like an OCBD.


Agree, they're very versatile. Try wearing it with your navy blazer and a simple rep stripe tie in a darker color, and a darker silk PS. See what you think.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Jovan said:


> Call me crazy, but I prefer the second photo. ...
> Currently wearing a grey chalk stripe flannel with white shirt, navy tie, white TV fold pocket square, black belt and shoes. "Come at me, bro." :devil:


You're not crazy at all, Jovan. But you've permanently disqualified yourself to be my style consultant, because your taste and mine are far too divergent.

Nothing wrong with that, of course, but horses for courses and all that.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Wearing ties with sport shirts is nothing new to advertising. This first example likely dates from the '30's, and also illustrates that clothing ads with celebrity tie-ins are nothing new to advertising either.









The styling of this shirt was common for the era, and similar examples worn with ties can be found sprinkled throughout popular films of the era. And while such styling appears somewhat idiosyncratic today, casual/country ties worn with solid color sport shirts cam still offer a handsome option. In reading the text of many of the illustrations from the Golden Era of AA/Esky many of the shirts are described as being cotton flannel. Cotton flannel is now solely in the realm of sports shirts, though such an arbitrary distinction likely did then not exist.

The second ad looks to have originated most likely in the '50's. Pleated slacks as popular fashion were on their way out by the late '50's early '60's, but narrow ties had only begun to emerge.









McGregor was a popular sportswear manufacturer of the era. And ties with sport shirts were used to advertise their offerings, as they were for similar companies. The particular example is something I wouldn't have found very appealing during that era, and has been included only demonstrate the inclusion of the mode among styles of the era.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Jovan said:


> I have a similar blue gingham check shirt that I wear with or without a tie, with or without a jacket. I don't know what to classify it as. It occupies that same sweet spot between dress and sport just like an OCBD.











https://www.paulstuart.com/product_...07&MainCatId=14&HEADERMENUID=1&SUBPRODCATID=0

Not precisely what I was describing, as both the tie and PS are lighter, and the check a bit smaller, but does give an idea of the effect.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I could go for that with a gingham check shirt. I may have to give this some more thought.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

The shirt I have is this one: https://www.ledbury.com/products/the-blue-gingham-worker


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Jovan said:


> The shirt I have is this one: https://www.ledbury.com/products/the-blue-gingham-worker


I think that's a great looking shirt, and yes, could be worn with almost anything. Wouldn't mind seeing a tie on it at all.


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

Oldsarge said:


> Indeed. Let there be color. Mad Men has done the nation no favors by pushing us back into grey suits with white shirts and narrow black ties. The drudge in the grey flannel suit was and remains a drudge. No one but a very junior accountant should dress so. The rest of us should know better.


Your attacker ignored the shirt & tie bit and gave two examples that missed the point. And when did Money-Money-Money ever equal Taste? If you're not an accountant, there's certainly no reason to dress like one, unless you're truly boring.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

... can we just agree to dress the way we like and celebrate the fact that people are wearing suits and ties at all? Thanks.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

drlivingston said:


> Quite a bit of linen was used to make that jacket...:smile:


and had they used just a bit more it might fit.


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