# Why Edward Green?



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

A slightly provocative title maybe but behind it lies a serious question. With the advent of Gaziano and Girling RTW and MTO shoes why Edward Green? 

I have been a fan of Edward Green but G&G offer more exciting shoes that fit you if EG fit you. They offer far more for the money at a similar price point than EG. 

Yet somehow I don't want to abandon EG - so I am asking if any of the shoe experts on the forum have a good reason for sticking with them and perhaps buying from both companies.

I know much of what motives our choice is subjective, but are there any objective reasons to continue to support EG despite the advent of G&G?

I seem to remember on another thread one person was concerned that there might not be room for another top end shoemaker in England and that indeed EG might suffer from G&G coming to the market.:icon_pale:

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

LM


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

The most obvious reason, to me at least, is that which you allude to in your own post: G&G are more exciting shoes, but EG offers a range of very traditional designs - there is an overlap here but generally the style of both houses is sufficiently different to cause different people to want them or the same person to want them for different reasons.

Allied to this is the question of lasts: partly for style but also for fit - some will always find that one maker or one last type fits them better than the others.

Also, to date only EG has a sale?


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Thank you Rossini for such a speedy reply and for your very interesting and sensible points :icon_smile:

LM


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

The converse of your question was the topic of much discussion when Mr Gaziano decided to leave Edward Green and established his ready-made/made-to-order shoe venture. Given Edward Green's offerings, quality, history, price and market presence, what void would Gaziano and Girling be filling? Was the market large enough to accomodate another high quality British shoemaker? Could G&G find a strong enough client base to sustain such an undertaking? While I do not know the financials of either company, it certainly appears that there is indeed room for both. Indeed, I am a customer of both firms (though only bespoke in the case of G&G) and am likely to remain so. 

Now let me respond to your specific question a bit more fully. Edward Green -- though it has gone through some rather difficult times in the past -- is a well-established company with strong retail relationships and a rather loyal customer base. It currently has some 75 different models of shoes in its catalogue...and each of these can be ordered on a variety of lasts and in a wide array of leathers, colors and finishes. Moreover, these offerings span virtually the complete range of classic British footwear. It encompasses not only traditional city wear, but a solid selection of country shoes as well as boots and slippers. Its lasts not only offer a range of looks, but a range of fits as well. It has a prominent retail outlet and its shoes are also stocked by a limited number of additional retailers. Moreover, it has recently added its Top Drawer program, which allows customers not only to add additional style details but also make alterations to the basic shoe design and construction. Gaziano & Girling has established what I see as a complementary approach. Its designs -- while based on the classics -- have a more "modern" and individualized look. However, at present, there are less than two dozen styles in their catalogue and only a dozen of these models in their standard stock inventory; everything else must be made to measure. Finding G&G shoes is far more challenging than obtaining Edward Green footwear at present. 

It is my hope that G&G continues to grow and that both firms continue to flourish. We are better off for having them both.


----------



## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

What Rossini said. It's a style issue for me. G&G are too flashy and their lasts too aggressive. With 82, 888, 808, 606 and 202, EG has multiple lasts that I really like. Also, EG's back catalog of models which they will happily make up is a great plus.

Lastly, if you need the extras like the beveled waist etc., EG offers a Top Drawer range which, IMHO, is on par with G&G's finishing.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

It's worth noting that the G&G Roadmap shows there is a plan to fill some of the gaps to which you refer but clearly it will take some time to be able to offer the range of lasts, models, and leathers offered by EG (if that is their intention):

*Design and Development Timeline*

OCTOBER 2006
Contemporary and classic men's range

JANUARY 2008
Men's casual lace-ups and boots

JANUARY 2009
Made to order and high specification slippers

JANUARY 2010
Handmade bags and accessories

JANUARY 2011
Bench made ladies' range


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Yes, and I believe the firm is being very prudent in terms of not over extending itself in its development. The pace and range of these additiions is very measured. I believe that will be much to the company's benefit in the long term. But at present, the fact remains that G&G offers a far more limited range of footwear than does Edward Green.


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Thank you Medwards for contributing to this thread, it is great to have your view on the matter considering your wide and deep knowledge of the ins and outs of high end footwear.

To Andrew - I would just say that whilst I understand what you are saying , EGs Top Drawer costs about £300 a pair more than G&G. Yes, you get more flexibility with TD and if that's what you are after then it is the programme for you. But if it is the spade shaped sole and bevelled waist then G&Gs is probably better for a lot less money. 

I think that whilst I love G&G shoes ( well the two pairs I have at the moment and the ones I have seen in Edwards, Manchester) it is the traditional look that keeps drawing me back to Edward Green.

So perhaps like Medwards I am coming to the conclusion that there's a place for both in the market and in my wardrobe. :icon_smile:


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

aportnoy said:


> Lastly, if you need the extras like the beveled waist etc., EG offers a Top Drawer range which, IMHO, is on par with G&G's finishing.


I'd say TD is better finished, but it's a hell of a lot more expensive.

However, I agree with medwards. And G&G is a lot easier to deal with in terms of customer service than EG, which sometimes can be quite bloody-minded in a British kind of way.


----------



## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

There are intangibles imparted by EGs. Not to get mystical about a material object but I find they impart a sense of well-being which lasts through the day. Dissecting, weighing and measuring would probably not reveal the engine.


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

i think we need both EG and G&G as which the depth of EG catalog and history and with a more modern and contempary feel with G&G.

i have seen both EG's TD and the new samples from G&G i think apart from the price to compare the finishing is like comparing apples to pears!

i dont think G&G are any more agrestively stlyed than some of the other brands which are out there, and what with some of EG newer designs which had been posted on leather soul's website perhaps EG are also thinking in this line too

i think if both EG and G&G play to there strengths then there is room in the market for both and we as fan's and customers can get the best of both brands!


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

medwards said:


> But at present, the fact remains that G&G offers a far more limited range of footwear than does Edward Green.


Unless one travels the bespoke route. :icon_smile_big::


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Edward Green, of course, no longer offers a bespoke service now that Tony Gaziano is no longer with the firm.


----------



## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

Leaving bespoke out of the equation, as I've sen multiple stunning examples on Tony's work, G&G RTW, from a styling perspective, leaves me utterly cold. Most every model is a little off to my eye as I think they are going for a modern approach to classic English footwear that jsut doesn't work.

G&G apparently fills a niche in the market but I've yet to see the G&G shoe that compares favorably to Dover, Ecton, Falkirk or Beaulieu. I wonder if the response to G&G would be as positive were they owned by a maker who unlike Tony did not have immediate name recognition and an existing cult of personality?


----------



## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

aportnoy said:


> G&G apparently fills a niche in the market but I've yet to see the G&G shoe that compares favorably to Dover, Ecton, Falkirk or Beaulieu. I wonder if the response to G&G would be as positive were they owned by a maker who unlike Tony did not have immediate name recognition and an existing cult of personality?


A, I'm with you, in general, but think you're being a bit harsh on this last point. I share your assessment of the more aggressive lasts, and some of the G&G styles strike me as trying too hard. (A criticism I also level at Lobb.) That said, I can believe that folks genuinely like them. Many posters seem to enjoy that sort of stylized, eye-grabbing look -- look at how many folks drool over the Kiton shoes, which often strike me as unwearable. If anything, I think G&G may lure the folks who would normally buy flashier shoes into a bit of English styling. Like you, it doesn't work for me, but I don't go for flashy in general.

If the forums have taught me anything, it's that, boy, tastes vary.


----------



## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

DocHolliday said:


> A, I'm with you, in general, but think you're being a bit harsh on this last point. I share your assessment of the more aggressive lasts, and some of the G&G styles strike me as trying too hard. (A criticism I also level at Lobb.) That said, I can believe that folks genuinely like them. Many posters seem to enjoy that sort of stylized, eye-grabbing look -- look at how many folks drool over the Kiton shoes, which often strike me as unwearable. *If anything, I think G&G may lure the folks who would normally buy flashier shoes into a bit of English styling. Like you, it doesn't work for me, but I don't go for flashy in general.*
> 
> If the forums have taught me anything, it's that, boy, tastes vary.


I agree with this, but I have to agree with Andrew and say that I do not see them as the best choice... ever. To my eye, they are most similar to the French style of English shoes, but the designs are not as good. In bespoke, I think that you would be making a mistake to pick G&G over a Gomez, Delos or Lobb Paris (obviously more expensive) as the latter three make more elegant, more beautiful shoes in a similar style. In RTW, there is little like G&G, but Vass in the Italian lasts and EG seem to give a better look than G&G while encircling it as far as style goes. The C&J handgrade series has a similar look in some lasts, but I think they are more elegant and less out there overall.

I guess I am just another one of those who is missing the beauty...


----------



## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

I don't buy either, but if I did, it would be EG for the basic reasons Aportnoy and iammatt pointed out: the lasts of GG are just to fashion-forward for my taste. I actually do like a lot of their designs, but I can't get past the long-toed lasts.


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

My feeling is that G&G have had to take basic, well-balanced designs and move them off in a more modern (for lack of a better term) direction, partly because they can't be seen as simply copying EG shoes, the latter incorporating really sound and appealing design features. For this reason, we don't have the Dover in the G&G lineup, for example, but rather the Hove, which, to my eye, seems just a little off (perhaps it's the four eyelets, or the fact that the Dover captured the genre perfectly, and any spin-off was going to be necessarily inferior). In addition, to avoid the appearance of copying EG (and others') designs, we have what appear to my eye somewhat off-putting angled toe caps and other features. Perhaps Tony Gaziano, coming from EG, felt particularly sensitive about this--i.e., not being seen as merely copying what were already very good designs at EG.


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Those of you who have seen EG Top Drawer and G&G lately ( their soles have got even better) how would you say TD is better finished? Do you mean just the uppers, or do you include the soles too? 

I have to say, this is all very interesting! :icon_smile:


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Would it not be fair to say that G&G also offer a more traditional last - their round toed last and also that their smart round last is much like EGs 82 last? 

Also, I think one of our esteemed shoe experts - either JCusey or Medwards thought that the Gable model which is in their RTW catalogue was a wonderful shoe.


----------



## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

iammatt said:


> I agree with this, but I have to agree with Andrew and say that I do not see them as the best choice... ever. To my eye, they are most similar to the French style of English shoes, but the designs are not as good. In bespoke, I think that you would be making a mistake to pick G&G over a Gomez, Delos or Lobb Paris (obviously more expensive) as the latter three make more elegant, more beautiful shoes in a similar style. In RTW, there is little like G&G, but Vass in the Italian lasts and EG seem to give a better look than G&G while encircling it as far as style goes. The C&J handgrade series has a similar look in some lasts, but I think they are more elegant and less out there overall.
> 
> I guess I am just another one of those who is missing the beauty...


This is probably a needless clarification, but I may not have been clear in that I was responding only to the last sentence I quoted from Andrew's post, about the popularity of the shoes on the forums. Should have deleted the previous one. I'll agree with you, Matt, that I've yet to see a G&G that made me think it was the best available option. But I haven't paid that much attention to them, so I'm couching my responses somewhat.


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

I haven't tried G&Gs, but as Tony has registered his disdain for the EG lasts that fit me the best, I doubt they would fit me all that well. Also, there are only a handful of styles in the G&G lineup that are conservative enough to appeal to me. 

I hope to be proven wrong about the MTO lasts, for Tony reputedly does excellent work at a decent price. And EG's run-of-the-mill antiquing is not really to my taste.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Leather man said:


> Also, I think one of our esteemed shoe experts - either JCusey or Medwards thought that the Gable model which is in their RTW catalogue was a wonderful shoe.


That was Mr JCusey. :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

EG have the range of classic styles I find most aesthetically pleasing. They also have lower facings and shorter toe caps which appeals. G&G have the soles (waist suppression & fiddling) I wish EG had. In truth, if EG TD soles became a standard feature of RTW, I would be over the moon.

Having said this, I still like some of the contemporary G&G styles. I just find the longer nose is a product of a higher facing and longer toe caps. I had feared for creased toe caps with G&G although I recently received an email from Tony acknowledging the caps length and his plans to revise them. Whilst I have several EG's on the 888, I stick to the soft square with G&G to keep the nose under control.

As I can't mix 'n' match my favourite attributes of both makers, I patronise both and will likely continue to do so.


----------



## Urbane Legend (Sep 7, 2006)

The great thing about this forum is we can study, critique and analyze the look and construction of shoes. There are times however, where I feel we notice particulars on shoes that would only be evident when viewed through a microscope. Are you going to choose the one with the nicer fiddled waist, or the one that fits you foot better ? I think most of us buy shoes based on looks and fit. 

That is the wonderful thing about choice. Many here love Edward Green shoes, others find their style less fashion forward. I like that G&G gives us yet another alternative in which to choose. An additional plus is that Tony and Dean are a pleasure to deal with.

At the end of the day, it is about personal preference and personal fit.
I think the world of both makers and have purchased both, but the style and fit of Edward Green shoes are more to my liking.


----------



## XdryMartini (Jan 5, 2008)

I have a few of each and like them both for different reasons. 

I really should just cut and paste what I wrote in the thread about the black shoes... :idea:


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

A few years back, Jun Kuwana had on his 'cobbler's web' site a comparison between generic English shoe designs, as interpreted by Edward Green and John Lobb respectively. So he compared the "Dover" and the "Chelsea" etc. etc. with their JL counterparts (Sorry, I'm not _au fait_ with the JL names). He illustrated the similarities and differences with many pictures and commented on them, then he awarded his preference for a particular design, to one of the two firms involved. In most cases, but not in all (maybe 2/3 to 1/3), he awarded the price to EG. I followed his line of thought through some rough and ready 'Babelfish' translation, so I could get the gist, but not the subtleties of his argument.

What happened to the 'Classic' JL designs now. They still produce them, they still sell them (no idea, how well they sell), but they are virtually taken off the radar and all the publicity effort gets directed to the seasonal non-traditional designs. Those are hit and miss, some are splendid, but others are totally botched-up in a desperate search for design originality. Same thing applies to the lasts, some become standards, but others get dropped, 'before one can say Jack Robinson'. Why is that? Why do they keep the aunt in the attic? Maybe they have realised that in the "English Rose" department nobody equals EG.

Like or do not like the (only slightly) harder edge of G&G, but what I cannot understand is this hostility:


aportnoy said:


> I wonder if the response to G&G would be as positive were they owned by a maker who unlike Tony did not have immediate name recognition and an existing cult of personality?


Are we talking about this "designer", who probably won't know one end of a sewing machine from the other end:

At least, are we talking about Tom Ford whose collection has just hit Harrods: think 80s power dressing: big lapels, big shoulders, large collars, extra-fat ties; dressing the male equivalents of Alexis and Krystle from "Dynasty". Well, maybe there are enough Russian oligarchs around.

Anyone, who in these times, when ¾ of all footwear is of the trainer-type variety, deserves my support. This applies equally to the Corthay brothers (their design sensibilities are not my ones, but I don't have to buy their products. The fact, they produce what they do, is admirable in itself). Yes, the Corthay brothers have their admirers and clients, is this a cult of personality as well or is it just that some people (can't please all the people all the time) happen to like their stuff. G&G, as well as Corthay have learned their trade in years of hard work, they are the exact opposite of a designer (give me a name, any name will do) 'cult of personality'.

Just as JL keeps EG on it's toes (and vice versa), so, hopefully does G&G with either, and they in turn will do it with G&G. The world will be a better place for proper competition


----------



## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

Bengal, you if anyone should know that I relish any high-level entry into the shoe pantheon. That being said, Tony's designs don't do it for me. It doesn't mean that I don't welcome his presence, just that I won't be buying anytime soon.

As for my remark about his easy entry in to the market, I don't think it can be argued that his tenure at EG created a recognition for his work and therefore a built-in demand for his services that had people clamoring for his goods prior to anyone having even seen a sample.


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

aportnoy said:


> That being said, Tony's designs don't do it for me.


Scafora (at his usual hyper-active self) does not "do" it for me. 
Corthay, I find (most of the time) plain ugly. 
Button boots (Lobb or otherwise), I find as relevant to today as a powdered wig.

Neither of them is on my shopping list. Have I ever proselytized against either of them?


----------



## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

bengal-stripe said:


> Scafora (at his usual hyper-active self) does not "do" it for me.
> Corthay, I find (most of the time) plain ugly.
> Button boots (Lobb or otherwise), I find as relevant to today as a powdered wig.
> 
> Neither of them is on my shopping list. Have I ever proselytized against either of them?


I don't think he is really prostetizing against them as much as stating his opinion. There are plenty of brands discussed and loved here that don't float my boat, and I have felt free to say so. EG, G&G and Lobb are among these save a few shoes. While I do not know if I would have put it the same way Andrew did, I do think that G&Gs availability to Forumland has helped increase the love for their shoes. Why should it not?


----------



## sartort (Jun 23, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> ...Whilst I have several EG's on the 888, I stick to the soft square with G&G to keep the nose under control.


Would you mind posting some comparison shots of your 888 and soft square lasted shoes?

I am in the midst of deciding upon my next shoe and can't decide whether to go EG, try G&G for some variety, or go Vass. I am having a hard time ponying up nearly $1200 for trees and shoes when I have been able to get my 4 pairs of EGs for much less. Granted they weren't MTO as they would be in this case. Thus, I want to make sure I make the right decision before I proceed. Comparion pics would be a great help. Also, can you give me the outsole length difference between the 2 lasts?


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

here are the lasts comparision from the both G&G and EG 1 thing i find interesting is that IMO G&G's are more like what EG's used to look like, esp in G&G's 2 round toe last and sotf square last, apart from for the TG73 which is alot squarer than anything that is from the older shots of EG lasts.

but again comparing the new and older shots of EG's last how deformed the 202 has become.

i think think the more classic last fom EG are much nicer that the present day ones, whether it is because the photos are different or that the last have mutated over time and over use i dont know but i think all the modern EG last looked like they have been sawn off and rounded down - stout looking were as in the earlier catalog pic they look rather normal but still less angular that their G&G cousins


----------



## sartort (Jun 23, 2007)

Thanks for the pics. I agree with you on the old EG lasts. The 88 looks like the ideal square toed last. It appears that it is just rounded enough to stand the test of time. My understadning is that 808 was born from this and then evolved to the 888. Is this correct? Also, iirc, the 88 is retired and cannot be requested as a MTO last. Is this true? The only concern I have with the G&G soft square is it's length. 

I have several pairs of 888 lasted EGs, and I am aware of the stock last photos for G&G's soft square. I am looking for a real world pic of the two side by side.


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

sartort said:


> thanks for the pics.
> 
> i have several pairs of 888 lasted EGs, and I am aware of the stock last photos for G&G. In fact, I have already narrowed it down to the soft square last.
> 
> I am looking for a real world pic of the two side by side.


https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=56994

really life photo's off G&G shoes!










soft sq2 and sharp sq2 main difference is the room in the toe box and the angle the length is the same


----------



## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

aportnoy said:


> G&G RTW, from a styling perspective, leaves me utterly cold. Most every model is a little off to my eye as I think they are going for a modern approach to classic English footwear that jsut doesn't work.


SO TRUE.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

sartort said:


> Would you mind posting some comparison shots of your 888 and soft square lasted shoes?


I'm afraid the quality from my camera phone is a little lacking:


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

J

can you do a side to side and a nose kissing nose?

cheers
LC


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Hope this will suffice. I grabbed a couple of pairs out of rotation rather than new shoes:


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

interesting! thank you!!

Now i am gonna sound an ass, from heel to toe what is the meassurement?

also the widest too points where the big and little toes should sit?


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

sartort said:


> Thanks for the pics. I agree with you on the old EG lasts. The 88 looks like the ideal square toed last. It appears that it is just rounded enough to stand the test of time. My understadning is that 808 was born from this and then evolved to the 888.


Sort of... The 808 allegedly had certain fit issues and was adapted to the wider 89 last (used on some RLPL EGs); the 888 was Tony's design to make a chisel-toed last which fit better, based on the 202 and the 808.


> Also, iirc, the 88 is retired and cannot be requested as a MTO last. Is this true?


Nah. Just placed an order on the 88 last. However, I've heard EG did toss out some of its 88 lasts for certain size/width combinations when it moved back in 1996.


----------



## TKDKid (Mar 20, 2004)

My favourite EG models are the Ecton and the Ladbroke, neither of which I consider to be traditional English shoes.

My favourite JL Paris models are the Philip II and Matta II, neither of which are particularly fashion forward.

My favourite G&G model at the moment is this one (with thanks to luk-cha for the pics):




























Not too wild and wacky, I trust you'll agree. If made up on G&G's soft square last, I imagine they won't look too different to RJman's wonderful .

I think I'd be pretty happy if I had all of the above in my shoe collection, variety being the spice of life and all that. :icon_smile:


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

I'm still not sure when I would wear a Balmoral Oxford like the above, but that is one of the nicer RTW versions I've seen.

Was there text attached to the older EG last photos? I have a rough idea of the differences between 202 and 88/33, but it would be interesting to know how EG positioned them.


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

Concordia said:


> I'm still not sure when I would wear a Balmoral Oxford like the above, but that is one of the nicer RTW versions I've seen.
> 
> Was there text attached to the older EG last photos? I have a rough idea of the differences between 202 and 88/33, but it would be interesting to know how EG positioned them.


the link from BS's post in relation to RJ's Gomez's

no text!


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

A lovely design. I too am rather partial to the true Balmoral (galosh) oxford style. Cleverley made this pair up for me in brown buckskin not terribly long ago.

https://imageshack.us

Edward Green's version of this style is the Gladstone, which maintains the classic Balmoral line, but is stitched without the punching. Here's an image from the Style Forum pictorial index:

Despite the general observations in this tread about the traditional vs fashion forward distinctions between Edward Green and Gaziano & Girling, I think it's fair to say that G&G can certainly make classically-based footwear that can be appealing to the traditionalist (as TKDKid's post illustrates) while EG has certainly stepped out with styles that have been both modern and stylish. It's worth remembering that Mr. Gaziano was a significant part of the EG team in recent years. That G&G and EG have somewhat differing approach to style makes good sense from a business perspective. It also reflects a somewhat different emphasis as to how the two firms view themselves. I'd again suggest that we are all better off for it.


----------



## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

^^^^

Classic English footwear at it's best Medwards. Your Cleverley does it all, elegant and supremely stylish without being distorted.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

aportnoy said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Classic English footwear at it's best Medwards. Your Cleverley does it all, elegant and supremely stylish without being distorted.


+1

A very attractive shoe.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

luk-cha said:


> interesting! thank you!!
> 
> Now i am gonna sound an ass, from heel to toe what is the meassurement?
> 
> also the widest too points where the big and little toes should sit?


Both shoes are UK 9.5 F

888 measures 31.15cm in length & 10.7cm at the widest point.
MH71 measures 31.1cmin length & 10.85cm at the widest point.

I'm not sure these figures accurately reflect internal dimensions. The G&G's canted heel shortens the length measurement and likewise, the closer cut welt on the EG narrows the width.

The G&G soft square is marginally longer than the 888 and I find the fit of the soft square to be fractionally narrower than the 888.


----------



## Harrydog (Apr 2, 2005)

I preface my contribution to this discussion with the caveat that I have only one pair of G&G (Hayes-smart square) and a half dozen or so EG (202,888,82).

My first observation is that my G&G leather has creased notably more than on any of my EG. The most direct comparison would be my RLPL Grants which are essentially like the Hayes in that they have a clean, wholecut like toe and vamp. No creasing on the Grant, whereas the Hayes has developed some creasing. My other EG have been similarly "crease-resistant". (Beaulieu, Inverness, and Sandringham most notably.)

As for the aesthetic. I find the G&G sharp square a little "snouty." Were I to have a "do-over" I would have gotten the soft square. On the other hand, I find EG a bit short and stubby. The pic below comparing the Adelaides illustrate the EG "shortcoming"; 








The vamp is shortened as the lacing extends further forward than on the G&G. The EG cap is smaller as well. My favorite EG that I own is the Beaulieu on the 82. The wings provide a sense of length and proportion, helped further by the elegance of the 82 last. Sort of the perfect shoe. The EG I am currently obsessing over is the TD Bealieu Tom Park had made up. (The Shannon runs a close second!)

I have what I think is the old 33 last on a shoe made for Paul Stuart - the proportions look way off on my foot as the captoe is tiny. Makes my feet almost disappear! I am 6' and wear a UK 9.5; Even the 888 looks a bit short to me. That is why I have settled on the 82 as my EG last of choice.

I will probably give G&G one more try with the Hughes from their stock list - Vintage Cedar on their sharp round last. I am waiting to see the G&G boots before placing an order for a Shannon II or III (though without perfs on the III). The EG price for TD is high, starting at 1600 dollars as quoted by Tom at Leather Soul - exceeding Lobb Prestige. I love the Sutton and the Brooklands - want the Vale and the Luffield- the 8000 last fits me well. I get POed with Lobb that they place a surcharge on making up the shoes in a leather not stocked by the NYC store.

So...nothing decisive one way or the other. At this point, the Sutton and the Beaulieu are my favorite shoes in a rotation that includes EG, Lobb, G&G, C&J Handgrade, Grenson Masterpiece, Alden, AE, Borgioli, Martegani, Santoni (though of late I seem to be moving away from the Italian aesthetic).


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Personally, the conservative G&G designs on the soft square last look better to my eye than anything EG makes. G&G's full brogue may be the best machine-made version of that shoe that I've seen.

Like most posters, I don't particularly care for G&G's attempts at modern designs.


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

jjl5000 said:


> Both shoes are UK 9.5 F
> 
> 888 measures 31.15cm in length & 10.7cm at the widest point.
> MH71 measures 31.1cmin length & 10.85cm at the widest point.
> ...


thanks J!

which do you prefer?


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> EG have the range of classic styles I find most aesthetically pleasing. They also have lower facings and shorter toe caps which appeals. G&G have the soles (waist suppression & fiddling) I wish EG had. In truth, if EG TD soles became a standard feature of RTW, I would be over the moon.
> 
> Having said this, I still like some of the contemporary G&G styles. I just find the longer nose is a product of a higher facing and longer toe caps. I had feared for creased toe caps with G&G although I recently received an email from Tony acknowledging the caps length and his plans to revise them. Whilst I have several EG's on the 888, I stick to the soft square with G&G to keep the nose under control.
> 
> As I can't mix 'n' match my favourite attributes of both makers, I patronise both and will likely continue to do so.


There have been some great contributions to this thread. At the moment this comment from jjl5000 describes just about where I am at.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

luk-cha said:


> thanks J!
> 
> which do you prefer?


This is the problem. I prefer the dimensions of EG (lower facings and shorter toe caps) but I prefer G&G's soles (waist suppression & fiddling).

If I could only purchase from one, it would have to be EG. Whilst I like a number of Gaziano's contemporary styles, I prefer the majority of EG's classic styles. Now add the significant back catalogue of EG patterns & lasts and they provide a more comprehensive choice (at the moment).

I expect G&G to narrow these margins given time and will continue to support them (along with EG) for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

I much prefer EG to G&G. EGs styling, as many others hve already pointed out, is classic - G&G strives to go for an "English with a twist" look which I don't think translates that attractively unto the final product. Secondly, EGs crust leathers look great imo - G&G's reliance on aniline calf is not entirely to my liking (they do offer a few crust models). Lasty, EGs vast archives of models, and their willingness to make changes to their stock designs under the MTO program, is something I have always appreciated.

I went to a G&G trunk show some months ago intending to purchase a pair of Astaires. I left empty-handed as G&G styling and lasts left me a bit cold.

As an aside, some people here have mentioned that G&G's finishing is similar to EG TD. I have a pair of EG TD, and have handled several G&Gs, and the TD is clearly superior (albeit 300 pounds more expensive). G&G's finishing and waist treatment is superior to regular EG though.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Eustace, The soles on your bal boots were quite beautiful. I nearly went TD on my most recent order with Green, largely due to the attractive soles but I resisted (for now :icon_smile_wink.


----------



## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> Eustace, The soles on your bal boots were quite beautiful. I nearly went TD on my most recent order with Green, largely due to the attractive soles but I resisted (for now :icon_smile_wink.


Thanks. You did place the MTO order, right?


----------



## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Eustace Tilley said:


> the TD is clearly superior (albeit 300 pounds more expensive).


Holy cow!


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Teacher said:


> Holy cow!


 Yes that is the problem! Edward Green's shop in London advised me that unless I wanted to make an extremely radical departure from their existing designs or use some of my own material - like Panzeraxe and Eustace Tilley have done - then it isn't worth going the TD route - even for the wonderful soles. Therefore I haven't. However I love fiddled waist soles and G&G provide them at an EG regular price - though I take on board that others who can compare both say that EG TD are much better finished than G&G - still one can't have everything!- or can one? :icon_smile_big:


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Eustace Tilley said:


> Thanks. You did place the MTO order, right?


Yep.

Dark oak galosh, edwardian facing & mink suede leg :aportnoy:


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> Yep.
> 
> Dark oak galosh, edwardian facing & mink suede leg :aportnoy:


Wow! That sounds wonderful. Please would you post pictures when the boots come through:icon_smile: When you say "galosh" which style of boot have you ordered? Shannon?


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Leather man said:


> Wow! That sounds wonderful. Please would you post pictures when the boots come through:icon_smile: When you say "galosh" which style of boot have you ordered? Shannon?


Thanks LM, I appear to be a Shannon junky :crazy:.

This latest commission is possibly a Shannon V based on Eustace's TD Shannon being marked as such on the box. It is effectively a Shannon I except the facing is a separate pattern and not simply part of the leg.

I shall see what's written on the box when they arrive. In the meantime, I anticipate the imminent arrival of my Shannon II in burgundy calf & burgundy suede & modified Pelham in bauxite.


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> Thanks LM, I appear to be a Shannon junky :crazy:.
> 
> This latest commission is possibly a Shannon V based on Eustace's TD Shannon being marked as such on the box. It is effectively a Shannon I except the facing is a separate pattern and not simply part of the leg.
> 
> I shall see what's written on the box when they arrive. In the meantime, I anticipate the imminent arrival of my Shannon II in burgundy calf & burgundy suede & modified Pelham in bauxite.


I am anticipating the arrival of a Robertsbridge which I have modified also in bauxite :icon_smile: The burgundy Shannon II sound sumptuous - mmm maybe an idea for the future:devil:


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

LM, I can't find the Robertsbridge. I presume it's an EG creation given the bauxite reference? Tell us more.

Bauxite has certainly found favour of late and the Shannon has positively romped home!

What will be next I wonder? Could it be the time of the balmoral shoe?


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> LM, I can't find the Robertsbridge. I presume it's an EG creation given the bauxite reference? Tell us more.
> 
> Bauxite has certainly found favour of late and the Shannon has positively romped home!
> 
> What will be next I wonder? Could it be the time of the balmoral shoe?


Robertsbridge is a derby version of Beaulieu. It is in the catalogue with the Green cover which you can request from the London shop. Maybe its just that I buy too much :icon_smile_big:

I have asked for punching on the toe - as per Leather Soul's TD Beaulieus and patterning on the side of the shoes along the lines of Perth - I hope I haven't gone too far but there's been much discussion between me, the shop and the factory and we all agreed in the end that it would look rather nice.:icon_smile:

Would you say that "Andrew" is a balmoral shoe or not? Perhaps Gladstone? That is one shoe that tempts me to buy black!


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Leather man said:


> Robertsbridge is a derby version of Beaulieu. It is in the catalogue with the Green cover which you can request from the London shop.


I have said catalogue and have found the shoe. I was originally looking in the SF pictorial index. Another classic, which I'm sure will be a hit. Good work.

As for the bals, I'd say the Andrew passes and it's one of the few new EG styles I like. The Gladstone is perhaps the obvious choice, which I picked up in one of the past sales.

Luk-cha's recent bespoke creation was simply stunning and has made me think black is the way to go with a balmoral.


----------



## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

That will come out beautifully jjl5000.


----------



## adrian07 (Aug 3, 2007)

Aesthetics. If I wanted a contemporary pair of shoes I'd look at Italian makers. EG represents what "British" is all about to me: conservative, traditional and long standing business. I went EG for the same reasons I went Patek Philippe in 2006 instead of F.P. Journe or any of the newcomers who many argue make better watches than Patek. At this level it is about what the product represents, not which is actually "better" or more practical, after all a $9 Timex keeps better time than my $$ mechanical Swiss gem.

Dare I take this chance to shamelessly show off my recently acquired EG again?  A TD Falkirk on 82 last will be joining it sometime lnext summer :icon_smile:


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

*London Lounge discussion*

There's a very interesting thread on the London Lounge about our discussion here and "Alden" makes a very interesting case which demonstrates that whenever there is a "new kid on the block" in the English shoe world he is invariably regarded as being much to avant-garde. What is amusing is that people were saying about Edward Green in the 1980s what some of us are now saying about G&G!

I don't know how to cross reference links but if you do a search on Gaziano and Girling it is about the first thread that is referenced.


----------



## Pliny (Oct 26, 2009)

well-kept said:


> There are intangibles imparted by EGs. Not to get mystical about a material object but I find they impart a sense of well-being which lasts through the day. Dissecting, weighing and measuring would probably not reveal the engine.


That's it, I believe: and I'm quite ready to fetishize the Dover in willow calf on the 82 last. There is something quintessentially English about EG shoes that's just rarely there in GG (IMO) - and I'm not sure it's something that can be quantified in terms of last, style, colour, finishing, weight and so on. I can't think of an EG shoe that doesn't have that essence - or a GG that does.


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Pliny said:


> That's it, I believe: and I'm quite ready to fetishize the Dover in willow calf on the 82 last. There is something quintessentially English about EG shoes that's just rarely there in GG (IMO) - and I'm not sure it's something that can be quantified in terms of last, style, colour, finishing, weight and so on. I can't think of an EG shoe that doesn't have that essence - or a GG that does.


I am fetishizing with you on that one - :crazy:

Very very sadly Edward Green discontinued Willow Calf a couple of years ago - sadly because I love it and was desparate for a shoe in brandy willow calf - even got a doctors note to say it would help with my recovery!! Apparently they were having problems with the finish - don't know what. Luckily I had already got Westminister ( a double monk shoe) in Dark Oak Willow:icon_smile:


----------



## Nick (Jan 16, 2005)

Perhaps I'm lowering the tone of this discussion, but for me the fact that -- from the other side of the world-- I can buy EGs on sale twice a year, and they will email me the list of available sale shoes, makes a difference.


----------

