# The "Allen Edmonds" of English Shoes?



## ErnstStavroBlofeld (Jan 8, 2013)

Just wondering is there a good quality mainstay English shoe maker that exists in the same fashion that Allen Edmonds does in the US? By calling AE a mainstay I mean that it seems to be the shoe that everyone recommends one get(even over lesser and more expensive options)

So I was wondering if there was a maker along the lines of AE that exists amongst English shoemakers/brands? As from what little I understand, there is not. Since in the case of AE here in the United States it really faces little competition among quality dress shoe makers besides Alden. While with English shoes you have a wide variety.

I guess what I am asking here is there a good quality mainstay "Made in England" shoe brand out there that you can't go wrong with(both price and quality wise)?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I think Trickers and Loake fill that niche nicely. 

They all really do depending on which range (EG and JL being the exceptions).


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Allen Edmonds primary strength is the company's commitment to width sizing. AE materials and construction is not especially good.
In contrast, the English shoe brands primary strength is shoe materials and shoe construction. English shoe brands fit characetristics,, due to lack of width availability, is not especially good.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

ErnstStavroBlofeld said:


> I guess what I am asking here is there a good quality mainstay "Made in England" shoe brand out there that you can't go wrong with(both price and quality wise)?


For me Crockett & Jones and Alfred Sargent are the obvious two choices. Both are excellent quality and quite reasonably priced, especially when discounted. C&J makes for so many different manufacturers, it's quite easy to find them on sale. Here's a sampling of what I've paid for mine:

Lowndes, $595 gift from wife, only retail price purchase from NYC store
Hallam, $400ish Edwards of Manchester sale
Westbourne, $400ish Robert Old sale
RL Marlow, $400ish RL 40+15% sale
Osterley (handgrade), Yoox $395
Clifford (handgrade), Barneys sale $365 I think
Winchester, C&J for S&H, $385 - $50 coupon = $335
Wicklow, Barneys sale $269
Coniston, BBBF version, $250 eBay BB outlet flipper (new)
suede driver loafer (can't remember name), $195 NYC store sample sale
RL Prestbury, $99 DSW (this was a steal!)

Alfred Sargent is probably the best current value in footwear. Obviously that's very subjective, but you can regularly find AS Exclusive or Country line shoes for just a little over $400, often with lasted trees. A Fine Pair of Shoes had a promotional code of SUMMER15 all this month which knocked 15% off. Since they subtract VAT, offer free shipping, and usually lasted trees that was a really great deal! NMWA has 'em on sale now too, and the BB Sargents are at least 30% a few times a year when they have their corporate discount sale. AS Exclusive is at least if not better quality than C&J Benchgrade IMO.

I have no personal experience with Trickers or Barker, so I can't really comment on those. Church's as a whole seems to have gone downhill a bit post Prada. Many of their shoes use corrected grain leather so I wouldn't say they fit your "can't go wrong with" category. Same with Grenson. Most of their shoes are made in India now, and their top of the line (made in Northampton) is quite expensive compared to AS and C&J. Sanders is fine, (I have these) but I generally think of them as a bit more casual. In any case they aren't quite as fail-safe as AS and C&J IMO. Loake's 1880 line is very underrated and great for the price, but isn't on the same level as C&J and AS. Loake's lower lines have varying quality so I wouldn't say that you "can't go wrong" there.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

+1 on Alfred Sargent. I own a pair of AS Moore in chestnut and bought them from AFPOS. At the time I got a free tin of Saphir polish but now they also include free lasted trees and free worldwide shipping. If that's not a deal I don't know what is. I would also concur with Fred on C&J. I briefly owned a pair of the Hallams but had to sell them because I bought the wrong size.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

gaseousclay said:


> +1 on Alfred Sargent. I own a pair of AS Moore in chestnut and bought them from AFPOS. At the time I got a free tin of Saphir polish but now they also include free lasted trees and free worldwide shipping. If that's not a deal I don't know what is.


I have the AS Moore in black, also purchased from AFPOS. Really great people to buy from!


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

DG123 said:


> AE materials and construction is not especially good.


I think both materials and construction of AE shoes are generally superior to English shoes at the same price point.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

DG123 said:


> Allen Edmonds primary strength is the company's commitment to width sizing. AE materials and construction is not especially good.
> In contrast, the English shoe brands primary strength is shoe materials and shoe construction. English shoe brands fit characetristics,, due to lack of width availability, is not especially good.


I don't know about that. I have C&J shoes as well as AEs and the craftsmanship and quality of the materials is pretty close as far as I can tell. Edward Greens, on the other hand, are in a whole different league, but they also cost 3x what AEs cost.


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## mhdena (Jan 4, 2008)

Whenever I see Churchs shoes they remind me of AE, not particularly sleek, a sturdy looking shoe.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

ErnstStavroBlofeld said:


> Just wondering is there a good quality mainstay English shoe maker that exists in the same fashion that Allen Edmonds does in the US? By calling AE a mainstay I mean that it seems to be the shoe that everyone recommends one get(even over lesser and more expensive options)
> 
> So I was wondering if there was a maker along the lines of AE that exists amongst English shoemakers/brands? As from what little I understand, there is not. Since in the case of AE here in the United States it really faces little competition among quality dress shoe makers besides Alden. While with English shoes you have a wide variety.
> 
> I guess what I am asking here is there a good quality mainstay "Made in England" shoe brand out there that you can't go wrong with(both price and quality wise)?


Alden and AE are the last two major U.S. brands made mainly in the U.S. They're good shoes, but frankly, I don't consider either wonderful. It's only that pretty much everything else is poor.

But while U.S. manufacturers did everything they possibly could to get out of manufacturing, becoming empty names that stuck once proud brands on cheap off-shore c**p, England decided to keep their shoe industry. That's not to say you can't find UK brands that are also made in the mythic land of Imported, but they still have a vital and seemingly growing demand for their UK made footwear.

That's a long-winded bit of context to say that there isn't just one English shoe brand that is an analog to AE. There are still a good number of English shoe brands that make shoes every bit as good, and often a good deal better than anything AE could ever dream of.

And while Brooks' Peale shoes are a U.S. brand for English made shoes from various makers, they all tend to be of fine quality, and as long as you purchase them on-sale, a good value.

Among English makers you have ne-plus-ultra's such as Edward Green, John Lobb, Foster and Son, and the upper range of Alfred Sargent and others I can't remember.

Among middle quality shoes you have Trickers, middle range Alfred Sargents, Crockett and Jones, and others.

Less expensive makes include Loake, Grenson, Barker and Sanders and Sanders. The Diplomat range of Sanders and Sanders is their top-of-the-line and compares favorably with AE's price. They're entirely Northamptonshire made on classic lasts from calf and display very fine workmanship. I have two pair of their less costly casual shoes, and find the solidity of their construction, and careful workmanship subjectively superior to what I've seen from AE even though they cost less.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> Alden and AE are the last two major U.S. brands made mainly in the U.S. They're good shoes, but frankly, I don't consider either wonderful. It's only that pretty much everything else is poor.
> 
> But while U.S. manufacturers did everything they possibly could to get out of manufacturing, becoming empty names that stuck once proud brands on cheap off-shore c**p, England decided to keep their shoe industry. That's not to say you can't find UK brands that are also made in the mythic land of Imported, but they still have a vital and seemingly growing demand for their UK made footwear.
> 
> ...


Very well stated.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

mhdena said:


> Whenever I see Churchs shoes they remind me of AE, not particularly sleek, a sturdy looking shoe.


I'm not certain which Church's you may be referring to...

Coincidentally, I wore this pair of pre-Prada Church's to an event just this evening.










Not only are they far sleeker than any pair of AE that I've seen (and I own _many _pairs of AE), but they also exceed AE in all other aspects: design, construction. materials and finish.


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## sleepyinsanfran (Oct 24, 2013)

Trickers are a notch or two above AE - in terms of quality of leather and construction. They are definitely not sleek however, and are best for casual / country wear. At the AE price-point it's hard to beat the construction and wide availability of sizes and styles, and I can't think of a comparable Northampton manufacturer.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

sleepyinsanfran said:


> Trickers are a notch or two above AE - in terms of quality of leather and construction. They are definitely not sleek however, and are best for casual / country wear. At the AE price-point it's hard to beat the construction and wide availability of sizes and styles, and I can't think of a comparable Northampton manufacturer.


You paint with a bit of a broad brush, I'm afraid. 
While your description would certainly apply to Tricker's Bourton, a wonderful double-soled country brogue:










it would be wholly inaccurate if one attempted to apply it to the Mayfair:


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Ok, let's sort of flip the question around. Above I suggested that Crockett & Jones and Alfred Sargent are brands that "that you can't go wrong with (both price and quality wise)." Look through their current offerings:

(select "Main Collection" for benchgrade, the lower priced line)
(all models are pictured, but not all colors)

With maybe one or two exceptions, there aren't really any ugly shoes among either of their catalogs. Each has a fairly comprehensive and attractive catalog with the most of the major styles represented. Now look at AE's catalog:

Let's be honest, there are some ugly shoes in there. There are also styles that I consider essential that are just missing. Out of 236 styles, there's not an attractive brown suede chukka (like the discontinued AE Malvern), and there's not a single shortwing blucher shoe, although the Dalton is a great shortwing blucher boot. There are lots of shortwing balmorals (Macallister, McTavish, Neumok, etc.) I don't find a shortwing bal a terribly useful shoe, although I own the C&J Clifford. The formality of a bal is really incongruous with the informality of the McTavish and Neumok. I don't understand why they made those styles as bals instead of bluchers. In addition to "price and quality wise," I would suggest that C&J and AS are better bets style wise than AE too, certainly among offerings in their own catalogs. (Both make some questionable shoes for other brands.) It is certainly possible to "go wrong with" AE in a way that isn't with C&J and AS.

(If there was a "stir the pot" or "poke the hornet's nest" smiley available, I'd use it here.)


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

my pair of AS Moore from the Exclusive line. still unworn


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

gaseousclay said:


> still unworn


How is that possible? I'm always so excited to get a new pair that I usually wear them the next day. Wear 'em out to dinner tonight!


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

Fred G. Unn said:


> How is that possible? I'm always so excited to get a new pair that I usually wear them the next day. Wear 'em out to dinner tonight!


long story but my wife and I are currently separated. I had to move out of our house and she's currently residing there with our son. I did not move all of my belongings out lock, stock and barrel, so my AS Moores are sitting in the closet at our house. the only dress clothes I took with me were my charcoal suit, a few ties, some dress shirts and my Alden shell cap toes for court. If and when things settle down and we end up reconciling I will then wear my AS Moores. the sad part is I bought them 2 yrs ago, so aside from trying them on in the house i've never really had the opportunity to wear them out.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

Here's my take, AE has gone down a bit in the last few years in terms of leather quality. I can tell a difference between my 6 year old PAs and my 2 year old Strands. They are still good shoes, just stick with sales or the Shoe Bank to get the best bang for your buck. I also have 3 pairs of AS from 3 different lines that I got from AFPOS a few years ago. I think the leather, craftsmanship and style are superior to AE but AS streamlined their products a few years ago and they are harder to find on deep discount. The current line is gorgeous though and nicer than AE. I have 1 pair of Loake 1880 boots and prefer similar styles from AE because the leather from Loake is corrected and a little blah. Not terrible corrected like mall shoes but enough that it makes these bad weather boots. Maybe other models from Loake have better leather but I don't know. I too think AS is one of the best values in shoes right now, also don't forget about Carmina. I have a pair of their tan double monks and man are they nice. Very classic style and shape but a bit sleeker and I like that it gives me some variety in my closet away from AE, Alden and AS.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

@gaseousclay - sorry to hear, I hope you get everything worked out.

@dwebber18 - Since the OP was asking about UK makers I didn't mention Carmina, but they do look fantastic for the price. I haven't actually tried a pair for myself yet, but my wife has a pair of their boots (from Epaulet) and they look great. They definitely are on my list of brands I want to try.

AE does make excellent shoes, and when purchased through the Shoebank are a really good deal for the quality. They certainly were my introduction (gateway drug?) to better footwear. There are lots of reasons to buy AE - GY welted, lots of widths, made in the USA, great customer service, etc. - but there are lots of reasons to consider UK brands like C&J and AS too - better leather, better lasts (for me anyway), better designs, better finishing, etc. I still have 4 pairs of AEs, but C&J and AS on sale sort of hits the quality/price sweet spot for me personally right now. That said, I have a pretty decent collection so there's nothing I really "need" either.


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## musicmax (Mar 13, 2012)

DG123 said:


> Allen Edmonds primary strength is the company's commitment to width sizing. AE materials and construction is not especially good.
> In contrast, the English shoe brands primary strength is shoe materials and shoe construction. English shoe brands fit characetristics,, due to *lack of width availability*, is not especially good.


Brooks Brothers carries some of its Peal & Co. in non-standard widths. A Brooks SA was able to locate the U-Throat Wingtip and the Black Perf Captoe (both C&J) in US C width for me. $351 apiece with a triple stack of Sale, Day-After-Christmas kicker, and new credit card kicker.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

The one that springs to mind is Loake 1880.

I do not think AE can really be said to be equivalent to C&J / AS - from my admittedly limited experience of AE, C&J in particular are a notch up, in my view (reflected in the price).


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Balfour said:


> The one that springs to mind is Loake 1880.
> 
> I do not think AE can really be said to be equivalent to C&J / AS - from my admittedly limited experience of AE, C&J in particular are a notch up, in my view (reflected in the price).


Not that familiar with Loake but would certainly agree concerning C&J and AS. Since their reorganization, AS has been making some shoes that rival England's best makers.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Balfour said:


> I do not think AE can really be said to be equivalent to C&J / AS - from my admittedly limited experience of AE, C&J in particular are a notch up, in my view (reflected in the price).


Hard to argue with this.


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## Question (Jun 18, 2014)

Can you guys thin of any AE equivalent brands in other countries? It seems the UK gets brought up all the time, but what about europe, south america and asia?


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Question said:


> Can you guys thin of any AE equivalent brands in other countries? It seems the UK gets brought up all the time, but what about europe, south america and asia?


AE's company strength is its availability of width sizing. Other than the USA based Alden and Allen Edmonds, no other country has any manufacturer which produces men's shoes in a variety of width sizing.


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## ErnstStavroBlofeld (Jan 8, 2013)

Flanderian said:


> Alden and AE are the last two major U.S. brands made mainly in the U.S. They're good shoes, but frankly, I don't consider either wonderful. It's only that pretty much everything else is poor.
> 
> But while U.S. manufacturers did everything they possibly could to get out of manufacturing, becoming empty names that stuck once proud brands on cheap off-shore c**p, England decided to keep their shoe industry. That's not to say you can't find UK brands that are also made in the mythic land of Imported, but they still have a vital and seemingly growing demand for their UK made footwear.
> 
> ...


Thank you Flandrian for providing me a good break down of the various types(and quality) of English Shoes. From what I understand so far is that maybe Alfred Sargent is the closest comparable thing to AE in terms of providing a good entry point for a quality shoe?

The main problem I seem to be having with English shoes vs. those like Alden/AE or even other foreign shoemakers like Mezlan is that I can't seem to find them anywhere except at BB, J. Crew, and perhaps Ralph Lauren. And the ones I have seen at places like J.Crew(which only has a couple of AS models available) or BB(most the Peal & Co at my local BB look limited too and are quite frankly somewhat boxy/ugly-not saying all of Peal & Co. is just the ones my store stocks)

Also a question about Churches? Are they even made in the UK any more? I ask because I heard that after Prada bought them they went down hill big time.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

ErnstStavroBlofeld said:


> Thank you Flandrian for providing me a good break down of the various types(and quality) of English Shoes. From what I understand so far is that maybe Alfred Sargent is the closest comparable thing to AE in terms of providing a good entry point for a quality shoe?
> 
> The main problem I seem to be having with English shoes vs. those like Alden/AE or even other foreign shoemakers like Mezlan is that I can't seem to find them anywhere except at BB, J. Crew, and perhaps Ralph Lauren. And the ones I have seen at places like J.Crew(which only has a couple of AS models available) or BB(most the Peal & Co at my local BB look limited too and are quite frankly somewhat boxy/ugly-not saying all of Peal & Co. is just the ones my store stocks)
> 
> Also a question about Churches? Are they even made in the UK any more? I ask because I heard that after Prada bought them they went down hill big time.


You're very welcome!

But my subjective opinion is that Alfred Sargent shoes are quite a few rungs up from AE. And usually a good deal more money. I would consider either Loake 1880 or Sanders and Sanders Diplomat range better comparisons for AE.

I think you're entirely accurate in your characterization of the main advantage of AE being its wide retail network in the U.S. And it is a tangible benefit to be able to go to a store and handle and try on shoes. *English shoes have very few retail stores in the U.S.*, and most are practically available mainly via mail-order, which is how I purchase all my shoes.

The lack of stores and more limited availability of widths are the two great drawbacks for U.S. customers who wish to purchase English shoes. This necessitates mail-order if you wish to avail yourself of a broad range of choice, with the possible exception of Manhattan. You will need to order the shoe, see how it fits, and return it via post for one that does if it doesn't. Which I have done.

Either someone finds the greater style, quality and value I perceive in many English shoes to be worth the inconvenience, or they don't. I respect either choice.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

ErnstStavroBlofeld said:


> Also a question about Churches? Are they even made in the UK any more? I ask because I heard that after Prada bought them they went down hill big time.


Yes, Church's still manufactures in Northampton, or at least did a year or so ago when I sent a pair back to the factory for a little work. I don't believe that status has changed. 
I can not address any change in quality from personal experience. The only Church's I own are pe-Prada.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Just avoid any Church's with "polished binder" leather, as that's their term for corrected grain.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Fred G. Unn said:


> Just avoid any Church's with "polished binder" leather, as that's their term for corrected grain.


Which in the case of church's is pretty damn good quality corrected grain, which I'd take over most leather offered by cheaper makers...


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

DG123 said:


> AE's company strength is its availability of width sizing. Other than the USA based Alden and Allen Edmonds, no other country has any manufacturer which produces men's shoes in a variety of width sizing.


That depends on what you mean by a 'variety of width sizing'; most UK makers offer a choice of two if not three widths, but just not in every style.



Checkerboard 13 said:


> Yes, Church's still manufactures in Northampton, or at least did a year or so ago when I sent a pair back to the factory for a little work. I don't believe that status has changed.
> I can not address any change in quality from personal experience. The only Church's I own are pe-Prada.


They are enlarging the Northampton factory quite significantly, having bought an old tram station next door which is to be converted.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Langham said:


> That depends on what you mean by a 'variety of width sizing'; most UK makers offer a choice of two if not three widths, but just not in every style.


As someone generally fond of English shoes, this is one area where AE, one of only a couple remaining traditional American shoe makers, has an advantage compared to English makers. It was traditional in the American RTW shoe industry to offer a broad (Pun?) range of widths in most styles, and AE continues this practice with as many as *nine* different widths available for its volume leading styles.

But fortunately for me, my U.S. "D" width is compatible with most English standard widths.


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## espressocycle (Apr 14, 2014)

Anything "better" than Allen Edmonds is subject to diminishing returns - once you're at the point where the uppers will take a polish and look good as new through multiple resoles, you're on to details you have to look quite close to see.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

espressocycle said:


> Anything "better" than Allen Edmonds is subject to diminishing returns - once you're at the point where the uppers will take a polish and look good as new through multiple resoles, you're on to details you have to look quite close to see.


There are diminishing returns with choosing AE over cheaper brands as well, but you don't have to look very close to see details that differ between AE and more expensive brands. There's no magic sweet spot with AE, that's just individual budgets. Cleverley and G&G are (to my mind) sublime. That can be spotted, even when worn, 10 yards off.

AE are good shoes, but if you can, branch out and play the field.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Bjorn said:


> There's no magic sweet spot with AE, that's just individual budgets.


+1!


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## espressocycle (Apr 14, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> There are diminishing returns with choosing AE over cheaper brands as well, but you don't have to look very close to see details that differ between AE and more expensive brands. There's no magic sweet spot with AE, that's just individual budgets. Cleverley and G&G are (to my mind) sublime. That can be spotted, even when worn, 10 yards off.
> 
> AE are good shoes, but if you can, branch out and play the field.


I suppose it depends on the shoe. I haven't experienced many high end shoes, but My AE Cambridge in shell cordovan are quite close to perfection and my Canton Norwegian toe shoes are simply gorgeous. I won't deny that there are nicer shoes, of course... I particularly covet Carmina. I'm just saying a $385 list price pair of AEs is more than twice as good as any sub-$200 shoe I've seen, but an $800 pair of shoes is not twice as good as a $385 pair of AEs. I still want to own such a pair one day, but they will still be subject to diminishing returns of all high-end goods - once you get to a certain point, you are spending a lot for a little.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> Which in the case of church's is pretty damn good quality corrected grain, which I'd take over most leather offered by cheaper makers...


But it will still have the issues that all corrected grain will have, regardless of construction quality. Via Put This On, "Besides the tacky finish, corrected grain creases more severely (because of the added layer of plastic-y chemicals on top of the leather), breathes more poorly, and ages badly, as the finish can be damaged or can even flake off of the leather below." I'd stick to one of Church's classics like the Consul, Chetwynd, or Diplomat.


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## ErnstStavroBlofeld (Jan 8, 2013)

Fred G. Unn said:


> But it will still have the issues that all corrected grain will have, regardless of construction quality. Via Put This On, "Besides the tacky finish, corrected grain creases more severely (because of the added layer of plastic-y chemicals on top of the leather), breathes more poorly, and ages badly, as the finish can be damaged or can even flake off of the leather below." I'd stick to one of Church's classics like the Consul, Chetwynd, or Diplomat.


What about John Lobb how are they regarded?

I ask because I saw them at Mr. Porter(which I take with a grain of salt) and they look like very nice shoes. However, I feel that the price they ask is a little rich(well over $1,000 for a pair of shoes. Idk how if I would be willing to spend that much no matter how great their quality is lol.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> ...It was traditional in the American RTW shoe industry to offer a broad (Pun?) range of widths in most styles, and AE continues this practice with as many as *nine* different widths available for its volume leading styles.


That's astonishing. English feet are only allowed to come in three widths.



ErnstStavroBlofeld said:


> What about John Lobb how are they regarded?
> 
> I ask because I saw them at Mr. Porter(which I take with a grain of salt) and they look like very nice shoes. However, I feel that the price they ask is a little rich(well over $1,000 for a pair of shoes. Idk how if I would be willing to spend that much no matter how great their quality is lol.


G&G and perhaps some EG shoes must be a similar price. Some of it comes down to selective choice of leather and undoubted craftsmanship, plus I suppose exclusivity. Compared with a high-end timepiece, they might be considered bargains, it's partly a question of how they compare with the less expensive alternatives.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Fred G. Unn said:


> But it will still have the issues that all corrected grain will have, regardless of construction quality. Via Put This On, "Besides the tacky finish, corrected grain creases more severely (because of the added layer of plastic-y chemicals on top of the leather), breathes more poorly, and ages badly, as the finish can be damaged or can even flake off of the leather below." I'd stick to one of Church's classics like the Consul, Chetwynd, or Diplomat.


Are you speaking from experience, or merely repeating something you've seen on the internet?

I have a pair of Church's in polished binder (pictured earlier in this thread, coincidentally) that have none of the traits you quote. Though high-gloss, they are not tacky or plasticy, nor do they crack or flake. They are a wonderfully supple leather and are only looking better with age. I would also say that the leather is nicer than that of any of the many pairs of AE that I own, other than perhaps the Horween shell (although that's not a very good comparison, because they are two entirely different types of leather.)

In regard to a multitude of widths, that is indeed valuable to a degree, but also a little deceiving. I personally believe that the shoe's last is far more important to good fit than one factor such as width. For good fit, a shoe needs to be proportionate to the foot. For instance, if one's foot is wide in the toe and narrow in the heel, the shoe should have those same traits. If a shoe fits that person in the heel, but is too tight in the toe, going wider might accommodate the toe, but will leave the heel too loose.

The trick with English shoes is to find the lasts that fit, and stick with shoes on those lasts. It might preclude some shoes, however the English makers produce such an ample variety of styles on various lasts that one is not left without choices.

With a much smaller range of lasts between the two remaining US makers of any size, I believe there is the possibility of some people finding _fewer _choices that might fit really well, despite the number of widths available.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Are you speaking from experience, or merely repeating something you've seen on the internet?


I haven't had CG Church's but I've had Grenson and Fratelli Rossetti's that had a "high shine" finish. I never could figure out a proper shoe maintenance routine for them once they got scuffed as the "high shine" couldn't really be repaired. The Fratelli Rossetti single monks I ended up trying to use Renomat to strip off as much of the plasticy finish as possible and repolish, but it didn't really work. I ended up selling both on eBay.

Technically pebble grain, hatch grain, etc are all corrected grain too. I own several pairs of C&J and AS shoes/boots with a pebble grain finish. I have no problem with CG shoes where it is an aesthetic choice, nor do I have an issue with shoes for formal wear. (I own some Edward Green patent shoes, so I guess those count as corrected grain experience too.) The corrected grain to be avoided is the cheaper plasticy kind where they basically sand down the leather to hide imperfections, and then give it a higher shine coating. I wouldn't purchase the current for that reason. Maybe it's fine, but after two bad experiences, I'm not wasting any more money on "high shine" corrected grain shoes.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Here is a thread with considerable insight on CG leather from an AAAC member with longtime experience in the tanning industry.


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## Question (Jun 18, 2014)

DG123 said:


> AE's company strength is its availability of width sizing. Other than the USA based Alden and Allen Edmonds, no other country has any manufacturer which produces men's shoes in a variety of width sizing.


I wasnt referring to the width availability, but more in terms of entry level, full grain, GYW soles (or blake stitch and other equivalents).

As far as i know theres only AE, UK brands like Loake/Barkers. A couple more like John Doe in the US. Stuff like Meermin is too expensive to be entry level though. Theres a brand in Australia called Matador Shoes thats apparently made in spain using blake stitch and full grain leather, but they dont really carry classic models and they seem very reluctant to respond to inquiries (i dont even know if they are still alive actually).

But i havent really heard about entry level shoes from other countries other than the UK/US.


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## sleepyinsanfran (Oct 24, 2013)

Fred G. Unn said:


> But it will still have the issues that all corrected grain will have, regardless of construction quality. Via Put This On, "Besides the tacky finish, corrected grain creases more severely (because of the added layer of plastic-y chemicals on top of the leather), breathes more poorly, and ages badly, as the finish can be damaged or can even flake off of the leather below." I'd stick to one of Church's classics like the Consul, Chetwynd, or Diplomat.





Checkerboard 13 said:


> Are you speaking from experience, or merely repeating something you've seen on the internet?
> 
> I have a pair of Church's in polished binder (pictured earlier in this thread, coincidentally) that have none of the traits you quote. Though high-gloss, they are not tacky or plasticy, nor do they crack or flake. They are a wonderfully supple leather and are only looking better with age. I would also say that the leather is nicer than that of any of the many pairs of AE that I own, other than perhaps the Horween shell (although that's not a very good comparison, because they are two entirely different types of leather.)


+1 
(I was going to type something, but the above says it all). Church's are quite pricey though, approaching AE/Alden shell prices.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Question said:


> I wasnt referring to the width availability, but more in terms of entry level, full grain, GYW soles (or blake stitch and other equivalents).
> 
> As far as i know theres only AE, UK brands like Loake/Barkers. A couple more like John Doe in the US. *Stuff like Meermin is too expensive to be entry level though.* Theres a brand in Australia called Matador Shoes thats apparently made in spain using blake stitch and full grain leather, but they dont really carry classic models and they seem very reluctant to respond to inquiries (i dont even know if they are still alive actually).
> 
> But i havent really heard about entry level shoes from other countries other than the UK/US.


Meermin are 160 euros a pair - that's cheaper than Loake or Barkers. I haven't bought any (yet) but they look quite nice.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Are you asking about AE's at Shoebank prices, or at regular retail? There are a lot of non US/UK options at the $350 range of their regular retail. The aforementioned Meermins of course, but Paul Evans shoes are also made by a Spanish producer: https://www.paulevansny.com/
I think the DC Lewis shoes that Kent Wang carries are also Spanish: https://www.kentwang.com/shoes
Markowski is a French brand that always has a few on sale: 
From Singapore, Ed Et Al:

I'm sure there are plenty of quality brands in that price range I'm forgetting too.

EDIT: I own some Meermins, but don't have any first hand experience with the other brands I listed above.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Question said:


> I wasnt referring to the width availability, but more in terms of entry level, full grain, GYW soles (or blake stitch and other equivalents).
> 
> As far as i know theres only AE, UK brands like Loake/Barkers. A couple more like John Doe in the US. Stuff like Meermin is too expensive to be entry level though. Theres a brand in Australia called Matador Shoes thats apparently made in spain using blake stitch and full grain leather, but they dont really carry classic models and they seem very reluctant to respond to inquiries (i dont even know if they are still alive actually).
> 
> But i havent really heard about entry level shoes from other countries other than the UK/US.


I know you were not referring to width availability, but from my perspective "quality" is as much about fit as it is materials used or construction techniques.
Width availability, and a focus on fit, is more or less ignored by English brands, so I do not consider them to be of high quality. Someone with a medium-easy-to-fit -foot, or one who does not mind a poor fitting shoe, would disagree with my opinion here I am sure.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Are you speaking from experience, or merely repeating something you've seen on the internet?
> 
> I have a pair of Church's in polished binder (pictured earlier in this thread, coincidentally) that have none of the traits you quote. Though high-gloss, they are not tacky or plasticy, nor do they crack or flake. They are a wonderfully supple leather and are only looking better with age. I would also say that the leather is nicer than that of any of the many pairs of AE that I own, other than perhaps the Horween shell (although that's not a very good comparison, because they are two entirely different types of leather.)
> 
> ...


Shoes lasts are primarily designed to create particular looking profiles and toe shapes. However, it is true that last shape does have an influence upon fit, but just not to near the extent that widths availability influences fit. 
From a manufacturing, wholesaling, and retailing perspective, the inventory costs associated with making widths available is very high. For example, 50 years ago a quality USA shoe retailer's back room would have an entire wall filled with just one shoe model. The widths (in every size) take up a great amount of space, and dollars. 
In general, a poor fitting last, in the right width, will get the wearer a reasonably good fit. A good fitting last, in the correct width, will get the consumer an excellent fit.


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## Question (Jun 18, 2014)

Langham said:


> Meermin are 160 euros a pair - that's cheaper than Loake or Barkers. I haven't bought any (yet) but they look quite nice.


Not when you consider that they charge something like 35 euros for shipping outside of europe and they never go on sale, while Loake or Barkers do.



> Are you asking about AE's at Shoebank prices, or at regular retail? There are a lot of non US/UK options at the $350 range of their regular retail. The aforementioned Meermins of course, but Paul Evans shoes are also made by a Spanish producer: https://www.paulevansny.com/
> I think the DC Lewis shoes that Kent Wang carries are also Spanish: https://www.kentwang.com/shoes
> Markowski is a French brand that always has a few on sale:
> From Singapore, Ed Et Al:
> ...


Hmm, both i guess. I didnt know about paul evans or that kent wang had dress shoes, thanks. Ive tried to contact markowski to see how i could buy their shoes before, but they didnt bother to reply. Ed et al didnt seem enthusiastic about selling overseas either (they were only willing to do a sale for a local event and weren't willing to offer the same sale online, and didnt seem to like responding to emails), and i found a few local (Singaporean) reviews where they said the leather quality was pretty bad and very much inferior to Loake/Barkers.


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Good morning, Gentlemen --

I just want to say thanks for this thread and input. There are a number of good points in here. I'm going to share this dialogue with our production people, to help keep them on their toes. I'm a big believer in constant self-assessment and self-improvement. We buy our competitors shoes -- many of the Brits, in fact -- and analyze them outside and inside (we cut them apart to see the construction details up close). When I moved our best production manager, Bob Steffes, to focus on our finishing work, I told him his first goal was to become the best in the business. Period. Despite our much more "democratic" pricing. If you've followed the improvments in our walnut finishing over the past 3 years, you'll see he's making great progress. We're coming out with a new color this fall that we're naming "Bob's Chili" because Bob came up with it. We have a new, much richer oxblood in development for spring as well. And we're bringing out a new blucher wing tip on our 65 last (called the MacGregor) for our Rediscover America sale in October, btw. I'll look forward to your feedback on those.

A great insight was offered above about our price/value relationship versus those above us in price and those below us in price. To expand upon it, we think we should live up to American ideals as a Great American Shoe Company. That means to us that we should -- as our country has when it has been at its best -- go above and beyond what others will do. A big part of that equation is the quality we want to offer for the price. We want our shoes to be as affordable -- democratic with a small d -- as possible at the level of GY welted construction, materials and finishing quality we offer.

One, and only one, defensive comment for your clarification. We have not changed calfskin leather suppliers in the past several years, contrary to the point made above. However, we do source different colors from different tanneries, based on their strengths. So if you notice that our custom black calf seems different than our walnut or bourbon calfskin, it's because they're from different European tanneries working with slightly different raw hide stock (due to different grazing altitudes/geographies of the calves before they become veal) and slightly different tanning methods. We pick the best mix of color, feel and durability for the look and quality we're going after.

Thanks again. Be well!
Paul


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Thanks for the comments & clarification on the calf. Nicely written.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Good morning, Gentlemen --
> 
> I just want to say thanks for this thread and input. There are a number of good points in here.
> ...
> ...


^^^ This is awesome! I'm really glad Paul reads and participates in the forum! If I was any way offensive when I mentioned ugly shoes in post #15, I didn't mean to be, it's just well ... ... and seem particularly bad, for example. The stitching on the latter is possibly close to an infringement on Camper's logo as well.

I do stand by my statement that even though AE has a very expansive catalog, there seem to be several "essential" shoes (my opinion obviously) missing. My brown suede AE Malvern chukkas are probably my most worn shoes in the fall. I'm not sure why they were discontinued, but a lack of a similar replacement seems like an oversight to me. Maybe it's a tough price point with all the $99 Clarks desert boots out there, but the Malverns are substantially better quality, on a more attractive (and comfortable for me) last, and just seem like the perfect shoe for fall. Mine will be going on their fourth season this fall and I can't wait to get them back into rotation. Maybe something more tailored looking like the C&J Tetbury could be a possibility:

I would say possibly on the new 3 last but I'm such a tweener on that last (it's so long I really need a 9.75 instead of a 10) it would be tough for me to wear. It would be a very attractive chukka though ...

A brown shortwing blucher seems like such a wardrobe essential, that I don't understand why AE doesn't offer one. I know a longwing gunboat is a quintessential American shoe, but I actually prefer shortwings because I think they have more visual interest. (Others of course may dislike them for this very same reason.) In fact, if I had to whittle my shoe wardrobe down to 3 pairs, I'd probably pick a black cap toe balmoral, dark brown shortwing blucher, and a brown or snuff suede chukka. With those three pairs you are really set for most non-athletic situations, yet AE doesn't currently offer two of those styles. The RL Marlow by C&J is the perfect example of the dark brown shortwing style IMO. Alden offers a tan version on the Aberdeen last (#966) but I used to own those and the Aberdeen is just too narrow for me in the toes. I'm just surprised that AE offers so many shortwing shoes, but none that are bluchers.


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## WestwardDrift (Jun 23, 2014)

Fred G. Unn said:


> I do stand by my statement that even though AE has a very expansive catalog, there seem to be several "essential" shoes (my opinion obviously) missing. My brown suede AE Malvern chukkas are probably my most worn shoes in the fall. I'm not sure why they were discontinued, but a lack of a similar replacement seems like an oversight to me. Maybe it's a tough price point with all the $99 Clarks desert boots out there, but the Malverns are substantially better quality, on a more attractive (and comfortable for me) last, and just seem like the perfect shoe for fall. Mine will be going on their fourth season this fall and I can't wait to get them back into rotation. Maybe something more tailored looking like the C&J Tetbury could be a possibility:


Fred, I have to agree with you here. I'm in the market for a good brown suede chukka with a rubber sole. I'm disappointed that AE no longer has any in their catalog. The Alden's chukkas don't appeal to me at all. In all likelihood I'll go with a British brand.


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## ErnstStavroBlofeld (Jan 8, 2013)

Hey Guys,

Not to bump this thread but I decided to take a bullet and buy a pair of tan Cheaney Country Brogues on Ebay. What does everyone think?

Did I make a good buy?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/221521761746


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Nice shoes, well made and very smart, and, of course, repairable almost indefinitely. A good buy? I think so.


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## ErnstStavroBlofeld (Jan 8, 2013)

Chouan said:


> Nice shoes, well made and very smart, and, of course, repairable almost indefinitely. A good buy? I think so.


Thanks Chouan!

Yeah I hope I made the right choice! From what I see, Cheaney has a decent reputation and I got them for a bargain compared to their original sticker price.

I also got a pair of used Allen Edmonds Park Avenues along with them as well for roughly the same price.


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## Alan veivre (Dec 5, 2017)

Glad to see allen edmonds is making a single monk strap shoe again-the plymouth,in a beautiful light brown color


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