# On Black...



## Northeastern (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm sitting in a lecture today, listening to someone talk about brand innovations or some nonsense, and I found myself looking around the room. Of the men in the classroom (32 total including me) only 18 were wearing pants that were not made of denim. I did a little survey of the remaining contenders and discovered that of the 18 wearing non denim pants, 
6 were wearing Khaki Chinos
2 were wearing grey slacks
and 10 were wearing black pants! (As a side note, 7 of 10 were wearing blue shirts with those black pants, but I digress)

So I start thinking about my wardrobe. Aside from my tuxedo and a few pairs of socks, I own ZERO articles of non-shoe clothing in black. No suits, slacks, sportcoats, or shirts. I might have a polo or two with black stripes or ponies, but nothing that's 100% black. 

Anyone else part of this club? Am I crazy for thinking that black is a color for priests and undertakers?


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Nothing wrong with the occasional black shirt or polo.

Bill


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Northeastern said:


> Am I crazy for thinking that black is a color for priests and undertakers?


You'll find that many on AAAC (including me) have an irrationally intense dislike for black suits. That told, I think a black blazer (worsted or cashmere) is a good thing to have in a wardrobe. They look great with jeans and glen plaid trouser IMO.

I guess black dress trousers can be useful too, but they're not to my liking. I do own black wide whale cords and some black slacks for golf. I have probably a half-dozen black casual, polo and golf shirts too.

If you wear too much black, people will either start confessing their sins to you, ask you to drive them someplace or tip you for your mime performance.:icon_smile_big:


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## wessex (Feb 1, 2008)

I am a proud member of the "No Black Club".


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## C. Crow (Aug 2, 2006)

*Black Duds for musicians*

I have a closet full of the stuff. Depending on the circumstances, for on-stage orchestral jobs I have black suits (Oxxford, Hickey F. and Brooks), two black tuxedos (both Oxxford), and a black white-tie-and-tails outfit (Brioni).

I often wear all black shirts and pants when playing in a pit band or orchestra.

I know a lot of musicians who take pride in wearing the cheapest, crummiest tuxes or tails. It's a perverse point of honor, like driving around the block before a job, looking for a free spot, never paying to park in a lot. But at some point I personally decided that if I was going to have to live in this stuff (and that's what if feels like sometimes) I might as well look decent. With good material, properly cut, the clothes feel better too. And thanks to Ebay I didn't spend much more money than I would have otherwise. Plus there was the joy of the hunt.

C. Crow


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

Black may be required for certain jobs or professions (orchestral musician, waiter, cleric) and well suited to others (artist, folk singer, fencing instructor), but for the rest of us it is not worn except in evening clothes. Charcoal grey, yes. Black, no.

Tjs


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I have a couple of pairs of black pants that I wear with grey tweed jackets and also a black/white houndstooth jacket. I also wear these same jackets with charcoal pants for variety. I know several guys who wear French blue shirts with black pants but I've never tried this. Not sure why because I think it looks OK on them, and I have a couple of French blue shirts.

For casual wear I have a couple of black polo shirts and a couple of short sleeve henley tees. I also have a couple of black long sleeve tees. All of these I wear with jeans.

I have a black suit. Although I originally bought it for funerals, I have never worn it to a funeral, opting instead for my charcoal suit. It gets worn socially with an open collared shirt on the occasional Friday or Saturday night, but not very often. I've never worn it with a tie or for any other occasion. Probably never will.

I know that there is a huge bias against black in the other forum; however, the fact is that out in the bigger world in which I live it is tremendously popular with both men and women. It seems to me that I see about as many people in black pants or shirts during the course of a normal day as I do any other color.

Cruiser


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

NBC. 

Charcoal is a more interesting alternative that serves basically the same function (dark neutral).


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

No black suits, one pair of black pants that are starting to show a shine. I don't think I will be replacing them anytime soon. I also have a couple of black golf shirts.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Northeastern said:


> and 10 were wearing black pants! (As a side note, 7 of 10 were wearing blue shirts with those black pants, but I digress)


Are you certain you weren't seeing deep charcoal? I have a pair of charcoal flannels that read black in certain lights (although, when paired with a pair of black shoes, they are unmistakably gray).

JB


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

*bits o'black*

I don't have any black jackets or pants, but I have a basic black BB polo and a black necktie motif'd with gold cable cars (which I've worn to funerals).


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## Northeastern (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm certain these were black pants.


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

Joe Tradly said:


> Are you certain you weren't seeing deep charcoal? I have a pair of charcoal flannels that read black in certain lights (although, when paired with a pair of black shoes, they are unmistakably gray).
> 
> JB


heh. that reminds me of something my wife said to me once: "charcoal and black: similar yet nothing alike."


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## yossarian (Apr 17, 2007)

NE, I agree with you. I own a tux, black socks and black shoes. That's it. When I was in college, I owned a pair of black pants to wear with an Armani sports jacket. But that was over 15 years ago. 

Heck, my 4 year old son owns a black pair of wide wale cords and I do everything in my power to make sure he doesn't wear them.


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## Southern Comfort (Jul 25, 2007)

Sartre said:


> Black may be required for certain jobs or professions (orchestral musician, waiter, cleric) and well suited to others (artist, folk singer, *fencing instructor*), but for the rest of us it is not worn except in evening clothes. Charcoal grey, yes. Black, no.
> 
> Tjs


Fencing instructor got a hearty laugh out of me. I'm not sure if I'm part of the club or not. I have no black items except for 1 tuxedo, 1 suit, and 1 polo shirt. The rest are the colors of the rainbow.


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## old_style (Mar 18, 2007)

In my opinion, most young men are way off in their choice of colors. I cringe every time I see one of my colleagues wearing the ubiquitous starkly black pants (with the obvious sheen of a polyester blend) and a bright, neon colored shirt. These shirts are usually neon orange, purple, hot pink, bright french blue, etc.

The shirts are usually "matched" with a similarly toned tie.

The problem is that these shirt colors look horrible with most men's skin tones (see Flusser's discussion of this in "dressing the man"). They also tend to be quite distracting.

The stark contrast with the pitch black pants just makes matters worse. The black pants look cheap, show lent very easily, and give off the "I'm really trying to be trendy" vibe.

I own a black tuxedo, some black socks, and of course shoes. That's it.

<Rant about this pet peve of mine is now over...for now  >


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

No black clothing for me, apart from my evening suit and Naval uniforms. "Service Dress Blues" et cetera are really black in this day and age. Go figure.

Scott


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## CactusMark (Feb 14, 2007)

I have a black cashmere topcoat that I inherited, but nothing else outside of shoes, belts, or formal wear.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

The worst thing about black in tailored clothing, besides it being so stark, is that it just looks cheap in anything but a tux. Black suits seem to abound in lower-end department stores like JCPenney and Sears and the like. And how many waiters have you seen wearing _nice_ black trousers? I would think a black suit would be fine for a funeral, but it seems silly since a charcoal suit would fit the bill on any occasion that a black suit would (and then some), and would look much nicer.

The first BB spring catalog this year did make me wonder about a black OCBD. Wouldn't really be black, what with the white threads and all, and with white buttons I think it might be fun. But I doubt that black oxford cloth is easy to come by, if it's even made.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

wnh said:


> I would think a black suit would be fine for a funeral, but it seems silly since a charcoal suit would fit the bill on any occasion that a black suit would (and then some), and would look much nicer.


I don't even think a black suit looks particularly good for a funeral. Like I said in my prior post, I have a black suit but I wear my charcoal suit for funerals. The black one is strictly for the comedy club or a party and is never worn with a tie. It's purely for social occasions when I don't particularly want to get "dressed up". And for that purpose it does a commendable job for me. Remember, black isn't looked down upon out in the world like it is in this forum.

I don't necessarily agree with you on the pants. I have a pair of mini-herringbone black medium weight wool pants that look every bit as good as my other pants. I don't like them as well as my charcoal pants, but I don't like wearing charcoal every day and it is a good variation. They go fine with any of my grey tweed jackets. The fact that others may wear shiny, cheap looking black pants isn't going to deter me from wearing my nice looking pants. Heck, there are plenty of shiny, cheap looking polyester charcoal pants out there also but I'm not going to let that keep me from wearing my charcoal pants. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

*black threads for the gig*



C. Crow said:


> I have a closet full of the stuff. Depending on the circumstances, for on-stage orchestral jobs I have black suits (Oxxford, Hickey F. and Brooks), two black tuxedos (both Oxxford), and a black white-tie-and-tails outfit (Brioni).
> 
> I often wear all black shirts and pants when playing in a pit band or orchestra.
> 
> ...


------I am occasionally in a tux for a gig, some groups these days want the black shirt and trousers-I do it but hate it. faux urban crap. even jobs that used to be suit or blazer went w/black clothes.... maybe some stupid Vegas influence.-however kudos to you for trying to make it look good. here is a funny one- we do a regular job at a prestigous club and went w/jackets and tie-deliberately non matching- instead of black or tux-nobody treats us like service sector but the other bands (not in Harri s tweeds or a navy blazer) get treated like hired help.(which of course we are but then any working situation is) enjoyed your post-


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## ComboOrgan (Aug 28, 2006)

The default uniform of the "young profesisonal" is similar to what Old Style described:

Black pants
Brightly colored dress shirt
"matched" tie (ala the Regis look)
square toed black shoes

I have heard the phrase "black goes with everything" so many times......
I suppose this commonly held belief is what brings about the black pants


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

wessex said:


> I am a proud member of the "No Black Club".


+1. No black except for a college scarf.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Joe Tradly said:


> Are you certain you weren't seeing deep charcoal? I have a pair of charcoal flannels that read black in certain lights (although, when paired with a pair of black shoes, they are unmistakably gray).
> 
> JB


I have a suit in dark charcoal that does the same thing. That is my only "black" suit.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

I grabbed a pair of Bills M2 in Black from STP some time back. Still not sure what to pair it with. Even a blue or pink OCBD looks day-glo when worn with black pants. Its ok with a white OCBD, but then it looks funny with brown shoes too. Hey, how about a white OCBD, black twill M2's, a khaki surcingle and dirty bucks? That might work.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

This thread is interesting to read, its a battle to the death of stupidity vs. closed-minded-ness.

Where is the subtlety boys? Nothing is as black and white (no pun intended) as most people on this forum like to think it is. By the way, theres no "canon" either, but thats a topic of a different thread...

What everyone is missing is black doesnt have to be such a severe color, when worn with skill. 

COATS
Looking through my fall/winter sportcoats, over half have black as a major component of them. Whether they be black/white herringbone, black/charcoal herringbone, or black/gray donegal. The use of black in these coats (tweeds) gives me the latitude to wear them in significantly more situations that I would feel comfortable otherwise. I have no issue wearing a small scaled black/gray herringbone sportcoat, gray flannels, white shirt, and a black knit tie to most social or work events in the evening, but I would if the coat were a mix of earth tones. 

SWEATERS
Upon getting my first real job in NYC my dad, ever the stylish dresser, gave me a bit of clothing advice regarding sweaters. Told me to buy myself the best quality, best fitting black cashmere sweater I could afford. I wore that first sweater to bits (bought it 14 years ago), and still wear it on weekends. There is something inately sylish about a black cashmere sweater. Whether with a beat up pair of 501s or fuzzy gray flannels. Next time you go to a dinner party of friends look around at all the schlubs. Show up next time in a black cashmere sweater. All your buddies wives will comment how good you look. Other useful black sweaters include black marled shetlands. I own a black/white and a black/medium gray. I wear them underneath my sportcoats all the time. 

SHIRTS
I have on order a oxford cloth black university stripe shirt. White background, black stripes. Considering the white threads intermixing with the black, those stripes will have a bit of a washed out look, but I think it will look great with gray suits and and black ties. It will have a soft long point collar and a flapped and buttoned pocket. 

TIES
The black silk knit tie is the most underrated tie of all time. It can be worn with a tan khaki suit all the way to a worsted dark charcoal flannel work suit. Everyone should own at least one. Ive got a few black silk knits, a couple black cashmere knits, and several black grenadines. 

Ok, back to your discussion - "I love black", "well I hate black", "but I love black", "youre a moron, I hate black" and so on...


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Like Phil, I have sport coats with a black component. I wear them all fall and winter.

I have a black knit tie and a black grenadine. I even have a black solid pocket square.

Black socks, t-shirts, and thermals also occupy space chez moi.

I am particularly fond of a black lambswool v-neck sweater from LL Bean, which looks great with a blue or pink uni stripe.

I also have a pair of black Levis. These get almost no use, not because of the color so much, but because I just don't like jeans very much anymore.

I don't care for the _Planet of the Yoko Onos*, _head-to-toe black look.

Selah,

Zorgon, H Bomb Monster

*Dave Barry's gag.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Black is a color for urbanites. I'm a country bumpkin. No antipathy; it's just not me.

Scott


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Phil said:


> This thread is interesting to read, its a battle to the death of stupidity vs. closed-minded-ness.
> 
> Where is the subtlety boys? Nothing is as black and white (no pun intended) as most people on this forum like to think it is. By the way, theres no "canon" either, but thats a topic of a different thread...
> 
> ...


But Phil, save the tie and sweater (both of which you are 100% correct about), you have described things that are not actually black! the shirt you describe, and the herringbone jackets employ a lot of black, but are not actually black when viewed as a whole.

What folks are railing against here is the pure black, high-roll three button suit with pleated trousers and no cuffs. I'm sure you can agree: yuck.

JB


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

My pasty complection becomes full-on cadaverous when I wear black, which is annoying, because black can be a very handy color.

I do wear my black knit ties a lot, though. Wearing one right now, actually.


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

I have a black tuxedo. I also have a black Shetland sweater by McGeorge. You may balk, but it looks quite good with chinos and a shirt with some kind of pattern, like a tattersall or check.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

AldenPyle said:


> I grabbed a pair of Bills M2 in Black from STP some time back. Still not sure what to pair it with. Even a blue or pink OCBD looks day-glo when worn with black pants. Its ok with a white OCBD, but then it looks funny with brown shoes too. Hey, how about a white OCBD, black twill M2's, a khaki surcingle and dirty bucks? That might work.


Black pants are difficult. I would suggest avoiding the black pants/white shirt pairing as this appears to be standard attire for so many waiters these days. I find that black pants tend to work best with polo shirts (blue, pink, green, red--if you like the Tiger Woods look) rather than OCBD.

Bill


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> I don't even think a black suit looks particularly good for a funeral. Like I said in my prior post, I have a black suit but I wear my charcoal suit for funerals.


I don't think a black suit would look good, either. What I meant was that a black suit would be an appropriate color for a funeral.



> Remember, black isn't looked down upon out in the world like it is in this forum.


There are lots of things that aren't "looked down upon out in the world," but that doesn't mean that they should ever be worn by anybody. Black suits may not have the stigma associated with them by general members of society, but they're still ugly for the most part.



> I don't necessarily agree with you on the pants. I have a pair of mini-herringbone black medium weight wool pants that look every bit as good as my other pants.


Texture is a different animal entirely. But I don't know that I've ever seen a pair of solid black pants that looked nice.


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## Absolute Beginner (Jan 31, 2008)

wnh said:


> And how many waiters have you seen wearing _nice_ black trousers?


Based on this statement, you have obviously never worked in the food service industry. Unless you're the restaurant's owner or the maitre'd, these clothes are meant to be more functional and not fashionable.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Joe Tradly said:


> But Phil, save the tie and sweater (both of which you are 100% correct about), you have described things that are not actually black! the shirt you describe, and the herringbone jackets employ a lot of black, but are not actually black when viewed as a whole.
> 
> What folks are railing against here is the pure black, high-roll three button suit with pleated trousers and no cuffs. I'm sure you can agree: yuck.
> 
> JB


My thoughts exactly. I doubt anybody here would be opposed to a black/gray or black/white jacket, black sweater, or black tie. It's not the color itself that people have a problem with, but certain ways the color is used, e.g. the pure black suit you mentioned.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Absolute Beginner said:


> Based on this statement, you have obviously never worked in the food service industry. Unless you're the restaurant's owner or the maitre'd, these clothes are meant to be more functional and not fashionable.


Actually, I _have_ worked in the food service industry, making pizzas and washing dishes at Pizza Hut for a summer. And I had to wear black pants. They didn't look good.

I never said black pants were supposed to be fashionable, which is a good thing since they aren't. Even so, black pants aren't even inherently functional. I'm of the opinion that waitstaff in nice, pressed khakis would look much better than waitstaff in a white or blue shirt with black pants, precisely because solid black pants never (in my opinion) look good.


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## Countertenor (Mar 21, 2007)

This black-for-gigs conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with Sator over on SF last May. Here are my thoughts on the matter, from an excerpt of that conversation:



> > Originally Posted by *Sator*
> > I know that amongst professional musicians there is this attitude that anything goes as longs as its black, but I would appreciate any insights as to how such a conclusion was reached. Traditional concert dress was black because it is a formal colour - the colour of a dress coat for an evening concert or a morning coat for a matinee concert. So why are black t-shirts, jeans and sneakers - and worst of all black lounge suits - now considered acceptable?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

Joe Tradly said:


> But Phil, save the tie and sweater (both of which you are 100% correct about), you have described things that are not actually black! the shirt you describe, and the herringbone jackets employ a lot of black, but are not actually black when viewed as a whole.
> 
> What folks are railing against here is the pure black, high-roll three button suit with pleated trousers and no cuffs. I'm sure you can agree: yuck.
> 
> JB


Sorry, this answer seems more appropriate:

yes, the all black high roll black suit is horrible.

you are right, thats much more interesting to read than an intelligently written piece about the subtleties of an often overlooked color.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

wnh said:


> Actually, I _have_ worked in the food service industry, making pizzas and washing dishes at Pizza Hut for a summer. And I had to wear black pants. They didn't look good.


Would you expect them too? What pants would look good on you while you are in the kitchen making pizzas and washing dishes at Pizza Hut?

Someone else said that he put on a pair of black pants with brown shoes and lamented the fact that it didn't look good, and blamed the black pants. Perhaps the problem was pairing them with brown shoes.

My point is that there is nothing inherently bad or good about black pants or shirts or whatever. Whether you like them is nothing more than one's own personal taste. I don't like pink or lavender shirts, but that doesn't mean that I always think they look horrible on others. I just don't wear them myself.

But I can put on a nice pair of black wool pants with a black/white houndstooth jacket and most people that I encounter will think it looks good while others may not; however, that would probably be true about any clothing combination that ventures beyond a navy or charcoal suit with a white or blue shirt. Just looking each day at the "What are you wearing" thread I see combinations that I think look good and others that I wonder what they were thinking even though some say they like it. We all see things differently. I for one am glad otherwise we would all be dressed alike all the time.

Cruiser


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Phil said:


> Sorry, this answer seems more appropriate:
> 
> yes, the all black high roll black suit is horrible.
> 
> you are right, thats much more interesting to read than an intelligently written piece about the subtleties of an often overlooked color.


no need to get snotty, Phil. We agree on all points.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

Im not being snotty. Its systematic of the forum that there is little to no discourse on anything. Apologies if my dissatisfaction for that fact was taken out on you.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I have a black crew neck sweater, black polo shirts, black dress shirts, the dreaded black dress slacks (worn frequently with a light grey winter weight plaid sport coat) and a black tie. I do not wear them often enough that they dominate my wardrobe, but I think they look good and will continue to wait them.

I have never been "mistaken for a waiter" (I won't even begin to explore the snobbery inherent in that fear!!) in my black pants.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

Phil said:


> Its systematic of the forum that there is little to no discourse on anything.


there is quite a bit of groupthink, i'd say.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Well, Im not that worried about being mistaken for a waiter, but probably a blob of white on a blob of black might seem a little to simple. I do have white twill BD (Tw3BD?) with black minidots that might be good. But the shoes, hmmm.... Maybe AENashua loafers, kind of a mix of a dark tan and a darker brown unlined tassel loafer. That might work. Of course, burgundy shoes go with everything, but that seems like kind of a cop out.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

I own a black tie from BB that I use exclusively for funerals, along with a charcoal suit.


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## Northeastern (Feb 11, 2007)

Phil and Joe, put your swords away! I started this thread simply because I found it odd that the attire of choice was a garment that I do not own. Furthermore, it's not as though these men were wrapped in some traditional garb that I knew nothing about, they were all wearing wool slacks, but in a color that I'd never considered wearing.

I'm not saying that black is the most horrid color of the rainbow, or that those who were it are low class or some nonsense. What I was wondering is if I was alone in my lack of black attire, and if this was something to correct. 

I don't own any solid black clothing, but I do have a sportcoat with black in it, some pocketsquares with black in them, and I'm sure I have patterned shirts or pants with black threading somewhere. I may consider a black cashmere sweater after reading through the comments here, but it isn't a priority.


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## Daveboxster (Dec 30, 2006)

*Wow, I'm surprised*

Wow, the reactions here surprise me. I have several black slacks that I wear frequently. I NEVER wear a white shirt with them, but most of my bolder shirts look great with them.

My wife loves me in black. She even convinced me to buy a black suit, which I really enjoy wearing. Having said that, I haven't worn it with a white shirt... only with something more stylish (like a cool lavender or grey checked shirt). I find myself wearing this suit when I want to be more formal. And never with a black tie. ALways with something with color/style/pattern.

Oh yeah, one other thing, I never wear black socks except with a Tux. I always wear patterned socks with some color to contrast the black and differentiate the look. and, I do have several pairs of black shoes.


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## Tucker (Apr 17, 2006)

A lot of drama in a thread from such a simple opening question. No, you are not alone and I don't consider it something that requires "correcting".

I own black socks. I was given a black polo with the logo of my church to wear for certain events. I own a black leather 3/4 length jacket by Armani (or Fendi or something ending in an "i") that was my father's. That should cover it. Black doesn't suit me well.

Is it "Trad"? Start a poll and we'll find out.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

As Phil states, the black/gray (or white or cream) herringbone tweed sportcoat is a very versatile piece. In fact, I don't know of anything more versatile outside of a navy blazer. But as Joe points out, it 'reads' gray (so does houndstooth or Glen plaid).

Traditionally, solid black suits, odd jackets, trousers and 'dress' shirts have not been part of the male wardrobe. I really see no place for them personally, semi-formal wear excepted, obviously.

Black can work very well as a secondary or tertiary color in a pattern, or sometimes even as the background field. It can work very well in ties (eg, black knits or grenadines). In fact, as Phil points out with his sweater, black does seem to work well with knits as a whole. Some like it in overcoats, although I would choose something else. Sometimes black can simply become an unimaginative default (eg, unpatterned black socks).


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## Northeastern (Feb 11, 2007)

Tucker said:


> Is it "Trad"? Start a poll and we'll find out.


Sorry I can't start that poll until we decide the following
1. Tradest Maple Syrup
2. Tradest Febreeze Scent
3. Tradest Shampoo/Conditioner Hybrid Product
and of course
4. Tradest Rap Song (as we've already covered pop)


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## Tucker (Apr 17, 2006)

Northeastern said:


> Sorry I can't start that poll until we decide the following
> 1. Tradest Maple Syrup
> 2. Tradest Febreeze Scent
> 3. Tradest Shampoo/Conditioner Hybrid Product
> ...


1. Vermont Grade A Medium Amber 
2. Linen & Sky
3. Prell
4. Dr. Dre, "Still D.R.E." (featuring Snoop Dogg)


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Tucker said:


> 1. Vermont Grade A Medium Amber


Bull. Everyone knows Grade B is more trad. More flavor and cheaper.

JB


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

deleted


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## SuitUP (Feb 8, 2008)

I have never had that many black items in my wardrobe to begin with. My only black pair of pants have been retired this year. The black shirt stays but only because I wear it for ballroom dancing. My 3bt black suit is getting replaced by a much nicer 2bt HSM black suit. It will be worn for nights out on the town or for events that don't quite call for black tie.

And I am not planning on wearing the black shirt black suit contrasting tie every again (unless I am married and my wife makes me wear it). I'd prefer not getting insulted again like in my post: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=79299


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

My aversion to black has less to do with tradliness and more with skin and hair tone. Light olive skin and light brown hair don't go with black. When I wear black, people see a black suit with me in it.


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Black is terrible. Grey is good.


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

*Thread Nero*

Whew--what a verbal donneybrook!
Several generations ago, as a teenage Mafia don wannabe, I affected black a lot--black Levi's, a black corduroy suit, and black mohair suit...Obviously, prior to my seeing the error of my ways and pursuing a more Ivy-Trad approach...
I currently own three black cassocks (my other life as an Orthodox subdeacon) several black logo t-shirts (Caffe Roma & Mario's Bohemian Cigar Store--San Francisco, etc), a black crewneck embroidered logo sweatshirt from our "on retainer" bodyshop, and a black pique golf shirt (goes well at Greek parish festivals)...have not worn a black suit since my early 20s, and don't plan to resume the practice...If I really need a "black vs blue" suit, there is always charcoal.

Celebrate diversity(!!!???):icon_smile_big:

hbs


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

I assume you all know about Brooks Brothers' decision to eliminate black suits from their lineup a few years ago?

I read once that one of their prominent customers was wearing a black Brooks Brothers suit when he was tragically shot and killed-- at the Ford Theater.

In honor of honest Abe's famous suit, Brooks Brothers decided not to make black suits for any of their clientèle thereafter.

I guess it's been a few years since the incident, but I've never had much interest in owning black anyway. Maybe I've just been conditioned by the fact that the best suits rarely come in black, but I agree that charcoal blue, charcoal grey, and charcoal brown look far better than shiny black.

Lately I've been warming up to the idea of black cashmere blazers and black wide wale cords. Someday I might just break down and buy something black that isn't intended to be worn on your feet.

Oh! Wait! I do own a black bowler hat. Does that count?


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## WhoKnows (May 29, 2007)

Interesting topic. I don't own a black suit. Although, I have been invited to family members wedding where black and white dress has been requested. It is an outdoor wedding in May. Any suggestions?

I am tempted to just go with charcoal.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

WhoKnows said:


> Interesting topic. I don't own a black suit. Although, I have been invited to family members wedding where black and white dress has been requested. It is an outdoor wedding in May. Any suggestions?
> 
> I am tempted to just go with charcoal.


Glen plaid?


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## FalconLorenzo (Aug 14, 2013)

I have slowly moved away from black but do have the occasional black garment in rotation. I own a black blazer that I was foolishly talked into by a salesperson at Dillard's before I started "knowing things," sartorially speaking. I'll wear it casually when I go out on weekends with some dark denim. I have a black Polo that I also wear casually with jeans or khakis while lounging around the house. I have one black pin-stripe suit that I've literally only worn once (to my grand father's funeral recently); that suit was actually a god-send because I forgot I even owned it and when my grandfather passed I thought (among other things) "oh crap I need to go buy a black suit and have it tailored in just a few days!" It is a nice suit to have, not that I'll ever wear it regularly but I know I'll be needing it more and more in the future. I'm more of a navy-suit guy. 

I have a few broadcloth button-downs in black but those will most likely end up in the next batch of goodwill donations in the spring. Horrid pieces, those.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

A nearly six year-old necro post. That may be a record.


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## Joey Kendrick (Dec 17, 2013)

Indeed. How did that happen?


For what it's worth: I hate wearing black unless I have to. Nothing wrong with it. I don't shun those who wear it. But it's not for me.


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## ThePopinjay (Nov 12, 2013)

I don't enjoy wearing it either though I have several black knit ties which are my favorite ties I own. And often when I give speeches or presentations in front of the class I'll wear my black fifth avenues with matching belt and a white shirt (with a red and blue repp and a navy blazer). I own a Hickey Freeman black worsted wool blazer that I wear with grey flannels to funerals (I don't own any suits yet). I think that's all the black in my wardrobe.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

I have never liked wearing black clothing [except for a Baltimore Orioles hat!!], but I did discover gray a few years ago and I believe it basically serves like a black for me. I think gray goes well with colors when black might not look as nice. I still don't wear gray a LOT&#8230;but it's my own little form of 'branching out'


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## FalconLorenzo (Aug 14, 2013)

Trad-ish said:


> A nearly six year-old necro post. That may be a record.





Joey Kendrick said:


> Indeed. How did that happen?


Extensive use of the search function, a desire to discuss the topic at hand, and a lust for this exact reaction! :tongue2:

In all seriousness, I see no need to start new threads if older ones exist. Ancient ones, even!


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

FalconLorenzo said:


> Extensive use of the search function, a desire to discuss the topic at hand, and a lust for this exact reaction! :tongue2:
> 
> In all seriousness, I see no need to start new threads if older ones exist. Ancient ones, even!


I think I agree with you, no reason we can't keep discussing. If you start a new thread people comment about using the search function. If you continue an old one, people also seem alarmed. Ya can't win


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

My mother used to tell me, "Black clothes will attract everything but women."

But really, I have acquired an aversion to black since joining the forum. I still own a couple pair of black chinos and a black sport coat, but they have essentially dropped from the rotation.


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## AshScache (Feb 4, 2013)

I have a black cashmere blazer that I love, but never wear. Why? Because its black.


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## Takai (Jun 2, 2013)

I own a black camel hair, and that's about it for non-required clothing, though I am trying to find a nice black suit to keep in back stock for the inevitable. I also have about a dozen pairs of black jeans, and shirts for stagehand work.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

I only have one black pair of loafers, and a black belt. I'd like some evening wear, but absolutely no reason to.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Takai said:


> I own a black camel hair, and that's about it for non-required clothing, though I am trying to find a nice black suit to keep in back stock for the inevitable. I also have about a dozen pairs of black jeans, and shirts for stagehand work.


Inevitable what? I cannot think of any forum (outside of perhaps clubbing) in which a charcoal gray suit would not be more optimal than black, and that includes funerals.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Black Suits; as dreadful now as ever!!


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

I own nothing black, not even shoes. Maybe I should buy a black polo though, sounds like a good idea.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> Inevitable what? I cannot think of any forum (outside of perhaps clubbing) in which a charcoal gray suit would not be more optimal than black, and that includes funerals.


My name is Balfour, and I approved this message!(*)

(*) The Church excepted.


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

Pentheos said:


> I own nothing black, not even shoes. Maybe I should buy a black polo though, sounds like a good idea.


I have a Lacoste with a silvery crocodile. And a black cashmere sweater is always a good idea, in my view.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm wearing a black polo today with dark grey chinos. It is an okay look. I think a black polo is useful and I own two, but I'm not crazy about them. I will say, though, that I get more compliments from various women in my daily life when I wear a black polo than just about anything short of a coat and tie. Funny how that works.


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## dkoernert (May 31, 2011)

Tilton said:


> I'm wearing a black polo today with dark grey chinos. It is an okay look. I think a black polo is useful and I own two, but I'm not crazy about them. I will say, though, that I get more compliments from various women in my daily life when I wear a black polo than just about anything short of a coat and tie. Funny how that works.


My FIL wears all black sometimes, and his wife and all the women at work thinks he looks great. It baffles me. Then the conversation usually shifts toward telling me I am wrong and I need to wear black. I own nothing black except one pair of shoes and one belt.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^A surprisingly high percentage of the ladies are attracted to "bad boys" and bad boys seem somewhat more prone to wear black! LOL. It's right there in all those old western movies we used to watch as kids.....the villain always wore black! :teacha:


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^A surprisingly high percentage of the ladies are attracted to "bad boys" and bad boys seem somewhat more prone to wear black! LOL. It's right there in all those old western movies we used to watch as kids.....the villain always wore black! :teacha:


More like "A surprisingly high percentage of the ladies (very bright in other ways) are told to like _*'What They Are All Wearing'*_ ", which these days is black. Black can be okay, I guess, but I think one has to be very careful of the construction and fabric: any thing black that looks cheap looks *real* cheap


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Tilton said:


> I'm wearing a black polo today with dark grey chinos. It is an okay look. I think a black polo is useful and I own two, but I'm not crazy about them. I will say, though, that I get more compliments from various women in my daily life when I wear a black polo than just about anything short of a coat and tie. Funny how that works.


John T. Molloy (Dress for Success) said that wearing black on top with lighter trousers was an optimum look for men who wished to attract feminine attention. It always worked for me when I was young enough that such attraction was feasible. And I still enjoy wearing black casual clothing, though I wouldn't wear a black suit.

Consistent? No, but consistency is not my primary goal.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I would agree with all of the above posts (aside from the Molloy reference, which I just hadn't heard before).

I don't do all black and the BB "dark grey" chinos would be considered light-to-mid grey if they were flannels. I don't own, and probably never will own black pants. 

The following things in my closet are black:
1 BB GF slim fit polo
1 Vineyard Vines polo
1 J. Crew cashmere v-neck
1 cashmere JAB full-length topcoat 
1 Patagonia R4 fleece (debatably athletic wear)
1 Patagonia Retro-X cardigan

Athletic clothing, shoes, socks, belts, and underwear are not counted. 

It has a place, for sure, but I wouldn't wear a black button-up shirt of any kind, nor would I wear black pants, a black suit, or a black SC/blazer. I've seen both a black blazer and black jeans look okay (separately), but I don't think the blazer would be quite the right look for me and I haven't worn jeans in years.


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

Tilton said:


> I'm wearing a black polo today with dark grey chinos. It is an okay look. I think a black polo is useful and I own two, but I'm not crazy about them. I will say, though, that I get more compliments from various women in my daily life when I wear a black polo than just about anything short of a coat and tie. Funny how that works.


Mom bought me a long-sleeve black "Alligator Shirt" from Cable Car in the far-off days before internet retailing. Everybody, well, almost everybody, kept telling me how "great" it was, etc.,etc.... I wore it as a black turtleneck substitute in those days.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

I confess to owning at least 3 black polos, but the only one I like has faded to charcoal.

Too much stuff now is only available in black. The few black items I have are still too much and I'm trying to purge it from my wardrobe.

I much prefer dark shades of actual colors, like eggplant-purple or hunter green, besides navy/midnight blue. BTW the nicest tuxedos are often really a dark midnight blue.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Himself said:


> Too much stuff now is only available in black.


Not that I am a black-clothes fan, but what is the magic number where "just enough" stuff is available in black. I am far from thinking that black is the perfect color for much of anything, but some people do and there are apparently a lot more of them than there are of me. I'm pretty content to let my coworkers and competitors walk around in black chinos or black sateen dress shirts since it only means I will look all the better in a crisp white shirt and mid-grey flannels.


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

Tilton said:


> Not that I am a black-clothes fan, but what is the magic number where "just enough" stuff is available in black. I am far from thinking that black is the perfect color for much of anything, but some people do and there are apparently a lot more of them than there are of me. I'm pretty content to let my coworkers and competitors walk around in black chinos or black sateen dress shirts since it only means I will look all the better in a crisp white shirt and mid-grey flannels.


Mr. Ivy Style himself likes black and often hits "the magic number...'just enough' stuff... in black." I dubbed it sophisti-ivy.

https://www.ivy-style.com/black-mischief.html


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Pale_Male said:


> Mr. Ivy Style himself likes black and often hits "the magic number...'just enough' stuff... in black." I dubbed it sophisti-ivy.
> 
> https://www.ivy-style.com/black-mischief.html


HA! The photo aside, I never look at his site, but clicking through the link, I scrolled through a couple of pages and found this gem of "humility":



> yes, I'm a living example that sometimes smart guys, through some character flaw, end up at mediocre schools


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Pale_Male said:


> Mr. Ivy Style himself likes black and often hits "the magic number...'just enough' stuff... in black." I dubbed it sophisti-ivy.
> 
> https://www.ivy-style.com/black-mischief.html


Fine outfit, but I would prefer a dark navy or charcoal sweater to black. The black shoes and accessories are OK.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Himself said:


> Fine outfit, but I would prefer a dark navy or charcoal sweater to black. The black shoes and accessories are OK.


I'd agree. I never wear black with anything khaki and sort of lump olive in with khaki. I once, without thinking, wore olive pants with black captoes. I am a civilian Army contractor and I work with a lot of guy in uniform. They gave me a lot of crap for "trying to join the club." Since then, no black shoes with olive either.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Everyone loves these 'black' threads! My own feelings:
Black golf shirts, shoes (including Chuck Taylors), sweaters, blazers and overcoats and of course, formal wear, fine.
Black trousers and suits, not so much, although I bought a Hardwick black suit last year just to see if I'd ever wear it.

BTW, I often wear a black polo/golf shirt with khakis and it looks OK, at least no one has assaulted me verbally or physically for doing so.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

dkoernert said:


> My FIL wears all black sometimes, and his wife and all the women at work thinks he looks great. It baffles me. Then the conversation usually shifts toward telling me I am wrong and I need to wear black. I own nothing black except one pair of shoes and one belt.


I've got a friend that will occasionally wear all black. We haze him about channeling Johnny Cash.


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## Alleline (Nov 16, 2013)

I acquired a black HF blazer from ebay. I admit that I hoped to learn it was navy when it arrived. But it was indeed black, and it turns out that I like it a lot with a dark gray pair of trousers and a white OCBD or mock turtleneck. Not a terribly versatile piece of clothing, but great occasionally. I second what someone said on the first page of this thread, that cheap black clothes look really cheap. But I was surprised how nice the black blazer looks in a crowd of navy blazers. The only other piece of black clothing I have is a Christmas-gift pullover that has stayed in a drawer, waiting until I need to burgle a building.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

The issue with black is best understood as being limited to solid black business suits. There is nothing "wrong" with solid black overcoats, jackets, sweaters, socks, trousers (often works great with many sport coats), shoes, belts, and even (sometimes) ties. It is true that the over-use of black by many men for all manner of clothing can render it somewhat sub-optimal for many of us forum members, and it can be kind of boring given all the other options, but we should guard against exporting the longstanding western convention disfavoring solid black business suits to other clothing items.


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

Himself said:


> Fine outfit, but I would prefer a dark navy or charcoal sweater to black. The black shoes and accessories are OK.


It's personal style. I would say I hate olive, rust, maroon, but it's not as though I never wear any, it's just that I don't favor those colors. Dad had but one black item -- a cashmere sweater that he gave to me before college. I liked it and wore it until it simply fell apart.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Tilton said:


> I'd agree. I never wear black with anything khaki and sort of lump olive in with khaki. I once, without thinking, wore olive pants with black captoes. I am a civilian Army contractor and I work with a lot of guy in uniform. They gave me a lot of crap for "trying to join the club." Since then, no black shoes with olive either.


Ha! If it isn't one workplace faux-pas it's another...

My issue with black is not so much how it goes with other colors, but that it doesn't go with my light complexion, or anyone's. Even those with stronger coloring would look better in an actual color that flatters.

If anything it's an anti-color, an avoidance of choice or expression of taste, perhaps on purpose!


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Himself said:


> Ha! If it isn't one workplace faux-pas it's another...
> 
> My issue with black is not so much how it goes with other colors, but that it doesn't go with my light complexion, or anyone's. Even those with stronger coloring would look better in an actual color that flatters.
> 
> *If anything it's an anti-color, an avoidance of choice or expression of taste, perhaps on purpose!*


Or maybe it's just that some of us look good in black and enjoy wearing it.

Like Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a smoke.


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## sp999 (Dec 9, 2012)

Himself said:


> Ha! If it isn't one workplace faux-pas it's another...
> 
> My issue with black is not so much how it goes with other colors, but that it doesn't go with my light complexion, or anyone's. Even those with stronger coloring would look better in an actual color that flatters.
> 
> If anything it's an anti-color, an avoidance of choice or expression of taste, perhaps on purpose!


From a scientific journal _Evolutionary Psychology, Distinguishing Between Perceiver and Wearer Effects in Clothing Color-Associated Attributions_, by Roberts et al.

Quote:

Here, wearing red, but also black, was 
associated with higher attractiveness scores. The two colors were approximately equivalent 
in their effects on attractiveness, in the sense that both black and red scores were not 
significantly different from each other in any of our comparisons, and both were associated 
with higher scores than several other colors.

End quote

The contention that black is an "awful" "dreary" colour only appropriate for funerals is clearly the opinion of some vocal members on this forum (and that other forum). Nothing wrong with that. But it should be acknowledged that they hold a minority view in society. For those that want to argue that forum members have a "higher standard", please tell me why this is not an arrogant statement.

It should also be noted that the subject matters were Caucasians. When it comes to other nationalities black is a very flattering colour, which is also the reason that it is also popular amongst them.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

sp999 said:


> From a scientific journal _Evolutionary Psychology, Distinguishing Between Perceiver and Wearer Effects in Clothing Color-Associated Attributions_, by Roberts et al.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Do you have the full name of the primary author of the article? I can find the journal in a nearby university library, but working through the indexes would be easier with more information. Thanks.


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## jmfr (Jul 28, 2013)

Roberts SC, Owen RC, Havlicek J.
Evol Psychol. 2010 Jul 14;8(3):350-64.

This should do the trick for you, its available as a pdf from the journal's website so no need for university library trawling. :smile:


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## Enrique Shockwave (Jan 17, 2014)

sp999 said:


> From a scientific journal _Evolutionary Psychology, Distinguishing Between Perceiver and Wearer Effects in Clothing Color-Associated Attributions_, by Roberts et al.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I saw this study a while ago, and found it interesting. I incorporated more red into my wardrobe as a result, but still avoid black.

While it many be a minority view that black should be avoided, there are concessions to the fact that darker colors are slimming and more attractive. This is why charcoal is such an important part of a wardrobe. Pure black, as has been said, can look cheap and avoiding it is one of the tenets that acts as a gatekeeper to trad style. I also find that black clothes tend to age poorly while charcoal can look good much longer.

Black is a much more formal color, that might not be suited for everyday pursuits. Also, multiculturally, black is not a very common color at all. Mainly in the west has it become de rigeur for formal occasions.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

jmfr said:


> Roberts SC, Owen RC, Havlicek J.
> Evol Psychol. 2010 Jul 14;8(3):350-64.
> 
> This should do the trick for you, its available as a pdf from the journal's website so no need for university library trawling. :smile:


Thanks. Just what I needed. A university library is a twelve-minute walk from my home, so I'll try there first and default to the PDF if the issue is not on the shelf.


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## sp999 (Dec 9, 2012)

Enrique Shockwave said:


> I saw this study a while ago, and found it interesting. I incorporated more red into my wardrobe as a result, but still avoid black.
> 
> While it many be a minority view that black should be avoided, there are concessions to the fact that darker colors are slimming and more attractive. This is why charcoal is such an important part of a wardrobe. Pure black, as has been said, can look cheap and avoiding it is one of the tenets that acts as a gatekeeper to trad style. I also find that black clothes tend to age poorly while charcoal can look good much longer.
> 
> Black is a much more formal color, that might not be suited for everyday pursuits. Also, multiculturally, black is not a very common color at all. Mainly in the west has it become de rigeur for formal occasions.


I agree that the main reason why one should not buy black, is that the colour tends to run, making it look awful after a couple of washings. That is the only reason I no longer buy black pants. But I also find this to be true of my grey cotton pants. Bear in mind that my economic condition is such that I can not afford expensive pants. Polyester pants look awful, while black cotton pants look too formal.

As for black shirts and sweaters, for me the problem with black is the layering. I prefer the outermost colour to be the darkest. So I will only wear a black shirt or sweater when the temperatures are warm enough and that will be the last layer.

I will also agree that black is a formal colour. A black suit looks like a tuxedo. I think this is what causes the love hate relationship. Trads think that if you are going to go formal, go all out and wear a tux, while those who love a black suit think that a tux has become dated, and a black suit is a "modern" approach to formal wear.

As for the multicultural aspect, black is also a popular colour among Asians. I have heard it is the common colour for business attire. If you also check the Chinese shops on ebay, you will also see that black is a very colour.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

*Practical black*

A fresh snowfall today encourages me to mention black technical garments. Wearing technical clothing in town may be disliked from afar, but it is sensible, practical and widely (almost universally) done in this area of the US. Fleece layers, puffy vests, Gore-Tex shells, mountaineering boots, hats and mittens are worn in the winter here by people in all circumstances of life, and often in business settings. Much technical clothing is black. Even boots that may have begun life colored differently become black or black-like with use. Later today, I will walk a half-mile to a business appointment, wearing mountain boots, jeans, a black silk turtleneck and a gray Irish sweater. If it still snowing, I will add a black Gore-Tex shell and fleece hat and gloves. The VP with whom I will meet will probably be wearing jeans and a sweater. She may have changed out of mountain boots into office footwear, but not if she intends to walk to lunch downtown. Frankly, I think we will both look good, and proper in the context of real life in this community.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

godan said:


> Fleece layers, puffy vests, Gore-Tex shells, mountaineering boots, hats and mittens are worn in the winter here by people in all circumstances of life, and often in business settings.


Brother, I think we have a very different idea of what what constituted a mountaineering boot. Those that I've worn are closer to alpine ski boots than cold-weather hikers.

That said, I buy some tech gear in black, but usually my jackets - gore-tex, down, primaloft, and fleece, tend to be more... colorful. Not bright, though, like the snowboarder bro look. My pants, under layers, and mid layers are all pretty much black.


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

Tilton said:


> HA! The photo aside, I never look at his site, but clicking through the link, I scrolled through a couple of pages and found this gem of "humility":
> 
> [/FONT][/COLOR]


Sounds like something said with tongue pressed firmly into cheek. I certainly wouldn't disagree with this as a serious statement. And from personal experience, I would add that some very mediocre people end up at Yarvton, and I'm not talking about the much-maligned legacies.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Tilton said:


> Brother, I think we have a very different idea of what what constituted a mountaineering boot. Those that I've worn are closer to alpine ski boots than cold-weather hikers.
> 
> That said, I buy some tech gear in black, but usually my jackets - gore-tex, down, primaloft, and fleece, tend to be more... colorful. Not bright, though, like the snowboarder bro look. My pants, under layers, and mid layers are all pretty much black.


My ideas about mountain boots have been formed during about forty years of high altitude mountaineering, technical climbing and backcountry skiing in all seasons. While heavy summit boots have the qualities you describe, medium and light mountaineering boots usually soften enough after a few seasons to be about right for town wear. I think I might know what the "snowboarder bro look" is, and my sense of mountaineering is as far away from the look and those who wear it as one can be while remaining in the mountains.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

godan said:


> A fresh snowfall today encourages me to mention black technical garments. Wearing technical clothing in town may be disliked from afar, but it is sensible, practical and widely (almost universally) done in this area of the US. Fleece layers, puffy vests, Gore-Tex shells, mountaineering boots, hats and mittens are worn in the winter here by people in all circumstances of life, and often in business settings. Much technical clothing is black. Even boots that may have begun life colored differently become black or black-like with use. Later today, I will walk a half-mile to a business appointment, wearing mountain boots, jeans, a black silk turtleneck and a gray Irish sweater. If it still snowing, I will add a black Gore-Tex shell and fleece hat and gloves. The VP with whom I will meet will probably be wearing jeans and a sweater. She may have changed out of mountain boots into office footwear, but not if she intends to walk to lunch downtown. Frankly, I think we will both look good, and proper in the context of real life in this community.


I own a lot of this stuff too, from 30 years of outdoor pursuits. It wasn't always this way, and unfurtunately it's been getting blacker.

Patagonia clothing used to be more dual-purpose, ie, as suitable for the streets of NYC as the the Himalayas, and based on the brighter colors of nature. Their sales copy harped on both these things. They had _nothing_ in black for many years, not even technical climbing pants. And the bright colors clashed, on purpose.

Now black is the first color they offer, and a lot of gray too, in line with the "nip urban look" that the non-preppy crowd gravitates toward.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Pale_Male said:


> Sounds like something said with tongue pressed firmly into cheek. I certainly wouldn't disagree with this as a serious statement. And from personal experience, I would add that some very mediocre people end up at Yarvton, and I'm not talking about the much-maligned legacies.


No, agreed - it happens and it is usually for the best, actually. Indeed, anyone contemplating colleges should probably immediately rule out the very best college they get into if they are seeking a successful college career - little fish, big pond, etc. - it is a pretty well-studied phenomenon and applicants would do well to heed those findings.

In any event, I was more referencing his need to qualify himself for writing a blog on Ivy Style while not being an Ivy grad. Sort of a "Hey guys! Even though I don't have the degree, I can still be part of your club! I'm smart enough, I swear!" sort of thing. He doth protest too much, etc.

Godan: I see. Google has led me to the boots you're referring to. Interesting that they soften up so much after a few years. How do you use those for backcountry skiing?


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Tilton said:


> Godan: I see. Google has led me to the boots you're referring to. Interesting that they soften up so much after a few years. How do you use those for backcountry skiing?


Something I posted may have introduced confusion, and you are obviously coming at this from a serious depth of knowledge. My current summit boots are Danners, made in China, Gore-Tex (which I trust) but I don't know the model name. They are just as stiff on rock and ice as the much heavier Vasques, which they replaced. With some care, they are ok for approaches, as well. No sign softening.

Two pair that have softened enough for town use are each about ten seasons old. They are Asolo light mountaineering boots, the kind with the circular tread pattern and Montrail "medium" mountaineering boots. Both are old-style, all leather, non-Gore-Tex models, so I think that being treated with sno-seal, etc., may have accelerated softening.

For backcountry skiing, I still use cable bindings, because I never saw one fail, but old three-pin and so-called Nordic norm bindings often spontaneously disassemble. With the cables, I use dedicated Asolo Snowfield boots, all leather, that are as stiff after six seasons as they were on the first day. Cable bindings take some fussing to get the tension right and even, but once done you can tape or Shoe-Goo them in place and never change except for different boots. If I need to buy bindings again, I'll certainly look hard at more modern styles that I see being used by other skiers in remote locations.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

godan said:


> Something I posted may have introduced confusion, and you are obviously coming at this from a serious depth of knowledge. My current summit boots are Danners, made in China, Gore-Tex (which I trust) but I don't know the model name. They are just as stiff on rock and ice as the much heavier Vasques, which they replaced. With some care, they are ok for approaches, as well. No sign softening.
> 
> Two pair that have softened enough for town use are each about ten seasons old. They are Asolo light mountaineering boots, the kind with the circular tread pattern and Montrail "medium" mountaineering boots. Both are old-style, all leather, non-Gore-Tex models, so I think that being treated with sno-seal, etc., may have accelerated softening.
> 
> For backcountry skiing, I still use cable bindings, because I never saw one fail, but old three-pin and so-called Nordic norm bindings often spontaneously disassemble. With the cables, I use dedicated Asolo Snowfield boots, all leather, that are as stiff after six seasons as they were on the first day. Cable bindings take some fussing to get the tension right and even, but once done you can tape or Shoe-Goo them in place and never change except for different boots. If I need to buy bindings again, I'll certainly look hard at more modern styles that I see being used by other skiers in remote locations.


Aha! You see, back country skiing to me is:

And I forget that back country skiing is also:










For XC, I haven't use anything but cable telemark bindings on skinned skis, so I'm not particularly knowledgeable.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Tilton: Not much terrain suitable for the second kind is available around here. Skins have a very limited following among backcountry ranger types, but I think telemark skiers use them. Situations as deep and vertical as in your first photo, plus rocks and 11K feet, can be a bit much for even nasty soft wax, so we often carry the skis, as you show, but use snowshoes on the way up, then switch to the skis for the downhill. Snowshoes are so light and short now that bringing them along is becoming a pretty common practice, and snowshoe bindings will fit most ski boots that work with cable bindings.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

sp999 said:


> I agree that the main reason why one should not buy black, is that the colour tends to run, making it look awful after a couple of washings.


Not sure who you thought you were agreeing with, but I'd agree that black cotton clothes that are to be laundered will fade rather quickly in many cases. Black silks, woolens and synthetics don't usually pose the same problem.


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## FalconLorenzo (Aug 14, 2013)

Just pulled off a successful wearing of my neglected black blazer. Went out with a group of friends for one of the girls's birthday - rocked it with dark wash jeans, a blue OCBD, crew neck sweater, bean boots, and a white pocket square. Lots of compliments on the attire as being the "best dressed man in town," (the ceiling must be awfully low here) so I think I found the perfect utility for this unloved jacket! Glad, too, as I was really starting to regret the fact that I was talked into buying it lol


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