# Concealed Carry Crew - Avoiding the "Bulge"



## robb01 (Oct 27, 2008)

I recently received my concealed carry permit and was wondering how to avoid the unsightly lump on my side. I've considered doing an ankle holster, but I'm not sure, any thoughts?


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## RebelLaw (Apr 10, 2009)

Get the jacket tailored. You may also need work done on your pants too because of the weight. If you know any law enforcement officers you may be able to ask them for other tips.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I have a couple of FBI Agent friends and they have their jackets tailored to fit over their weapons. A couple of other friends are police officers who don't dress as nice as my FBI friends and they just buy bigger jackets. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

Options you may want to consider are;
Smaller weapon (not necessarily smaller caliber, just smaller size)
Inside trousers holster
Small-of-back (SOB) holster
Ankle Holster (already suggested by you)
Coat/Jacket made specifically for CCW (These can be found in various handgun magazines)
Check Galls catalog

Danny


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Before this turns into a gunfight over guns, ankle holsters are only acceptable for a back up gun. SOB can be dangerous.

Go with pocket carry (by necessity a smaller gun in a smaller caliber--9mm being the top end) or get your jackets tailored for OWB or IWB.


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

smujd said:


> Before this turns into a gunfight over guns, ankle holsters are only acceptable for a back up gun. SOB can be dangerous.
> 
> Go with pocket carry (by necessity a smaller gun in a smaller caliber--9mm being the top end) or get your jackets tailored for OWB or IWB.


Good advice.


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## Bestof1979 (Oct 2, 2008)

Claybuster said:


> Good advice.


Ditto.


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## PeterEliot (Jul 9, 2008)

I've always wondered how FBI agents carry those things under jackets without advertising the fact. I can't even put my cell phone in there without compromising the way the jacket drapes.


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## Mike89LX (Jan 15, 2009)

PeterEliot said:


> I've always wondered how FBI agents carry those things under jackets without advertising the fact. I can't even put my cell phone in there without compromising the way the jacket drapes.


By sheer virtue it makes it all but impossible to have the jacket as form fitting as most members here would like it, so sacrifices have to be made to CCW with a suit/sportcoat for a full frame weapon


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

PeterEliot said:


> I've always wondered how FBI agents carry those things under jackets without advertising the fact. I can't even put my cell phone in there without compromising the way the jacket drapes.


Even with a properly altered/tailored jacket, if you look closely enough, it shows!


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Even with a properly altered/tailored jacket, if you look closely enough, it shows!


Agreed. Many people that have been on the job for any length of time have a relatively good sense of who is carrying, within reason.

It's not exactly related to tailoring for concealment, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is to consider the _inside_ of your jacket as well. Depending on your weapon and the lining of your jackets, this can be one of the first things to wear out.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Lots of previous threads. 

I finally went with a Kahr PM9 9mm 3" in a pancake holster. It's under 16oz. loaded and very hard to see in a jacket pocket. It could pass for a large wallet in your trousers.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

With properly fitting tailored menswear--suit coats and sport coats--I have come to the conclusion the side pocket holster is the best bet. The quarters of the jacket conceal the bulge in the pocket quite well. It works well even with closely tailored jackets, and you can carry a snub-barreled medium-frame revolver or any of the smaller full-power auto pistols in this mode. For routine daily carry of heavier guns, you may need to reinforce the trouser pocket.


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## norton (Dec 18, 2008)

keltec P3AT disappears in a pocket holster.

anything larger in a milt sparks IWB, but it will leave a bulge. The other problem is that good holster belts are wider and thicker than dress belts.


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## dbgrate (Dec 4, 2006)

You could always carry two pieces,one on each side.That way the visual effect will be neutralised and your appearance will be uniform.An additional benefit of doubling up is that you will feel only half as threatened by all those people out to get you.:icon_smile_big:


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## chava (Mar 17, 2009)

*ccw*



dbgrate said:


> You could always carry two pieces,one on each side.That way the visual effect will be neutralised and your appearance will be uniform.An additional benefit of doubling up is that you will feel only half as threatened by all those people out to get you.:icon_smile_big:


Too funny. Are you really going to walk around in a suit carrying a concealed weapon? That won't last long... believe me. Ankle holster, or keep it in the trunk of your car. Forget all the suit alteration ideas... you will just end up with a poor fitting suit.


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## PeterEliot (Jul 9, 2008)

Mike89LX said:


> By sheer virtue it makes it all but impossible to have the jacket as form fitting as most members here would like it, so sacrifices have to be made to CCW with a suit/sportcoat for a full frame weapon


That suddenly makes me think... there's no way Agent Smith could pull that cannon of a Desert Eagle out from under _that_ suit. It looked like a pretty good fit, as I recall. :icon_smile_big:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

But they're computer programs! They can make guns appear. 

Even more interesting is how Trinity managed to pull not just one, but two Micro-UZI machine pistols from a skintight vinyl suit in the next movie.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

There is alot to consider when talking about concealed carry. I'm a big guy(6'4" 250lbs) so I can get away with a bigger gun. I carry in an IWB holster, and it disapears pretty well in everything but a t-shirt. Get a good IWB holster and it will serve you well, and try them on before you buy so you can find out what fits you well. Also, do avoid SOB carry as it is dangerous if you fall. I only carry SOB if I'm just running out for a minute, or into a store real quick. Other than that its strong side IWB


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

What does SOB mean in this context? (I can't understand the post.)


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> What does SOB mean in this context? (I can't understand the post.)


Small Of Back - which is generally not considered a good mode of carry.

DH


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## Crane's (Sep 18, 2008)

I carry concealed all day everyday. IWB or a good belt rig setup cross draw works well under a coat or untucked shirt. It also has the advantage of allowing you to draw while seated in a vehicle. My preferred method is a back pocket holster with any number of small autos or revolvers. When done right it appears as nothing more than a wallet. Obviously this can give you a tactical advantage if you find yourself in a typical street encounter. Reach for the wallet and instead out comes your gun.

Ankle carry is for a secondary gun and should only be used in that manner.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Do you suppose Plaxico Burress used a SOB carry? Or simply stuck it in his underwear.

Perry


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

pkincy said:


> Do you suppose Plaxico Burress used a SOB carry? Or simply stuck it in his underwear.
> 
> Perry


Oh, I expect that was just someone wanting to be a "thug" and carrying a pistol he had no idea how to actually use or carry safely.

So yes, I'm sure it was tucked in his pants because that's what the tough guys in movies usually do.

This is why holsters and correct carry are an important discussion!

DH


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

cdavant said:


> Lots of previous threads.
> 
> I finally went with a Kahr PM9 9mm 3" in a pancake holster. It's under 16oz. loaded and very hard to see in a jacket pocket. It could pass for a large wallet in your trousers.


And they still allow you into the hospital?


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Nah, It lives in my jacket pocket when I walk my dogs at 6AM hoping I don't run into the psycho alco who has promised to relieve me of my head or his girlfriend who carries the butcher knife in her sock. After all, Doctors don't need guns to kill people in hospitals, just a ball point pen...


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## selliott58 (Oct 20, 2008)

In a former life, I carried several pistols (P7 - M13, Sig 226, Glock 18) under suits - sport-coats. The one undeniable fact is it required some work by my tailor in terms of the jackets worn while carrying. No matter what you know it's there and the clothing certainly fit less than the norm.

Several companies make very good concealment holsters. (Bianchi, Galco) One I used to use was made by a company called minuteman. Open top holster, very high and close to the body and unlined, so rather thin. I also liked it as it could be worn with a narrower dress belt as opposed to the wider variety. It might be advisable to head to the local gun store and test a number of them out. 

Ankle Holsters, tolerable for a back up, bad for anything else. Not a fan of shoulder holsters or Mexican carry (No holster -small of back). Worked great for Don Johnson in Miami Vice...


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## Joe Cool (Jan 23, 2009)

IWB just behind the hip with a good gun belt will make a small or medium frame handgun very hard to detect with a minimum of fuss.

As noted above, pocket carry of small airweight revolvers and autos with a good pocket holster is another great option which won't require dissecting your entire wardrobe.


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## Lowndes (Feb 25, 2008)

Wow, I didn't realize how many people out there carried concealed guns? Are you guys police or FBI agents or just carry a concealed handgun for your own safety? I just couldn't imagine myself in a position where carrying a concealed handgun would be beneficial at all. Or put more accurately the extremely small occasion it might be beneficial doesn't come close to outweighing the inconvenience (both mentally and physically) of carrying a concealed weapon. 

Now, I don't want to come across as anti gun in anyway. I'm pretty strongly pro gun and own quite a few myself. Just curious as to why people would choose to carry a concealed weapon?


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## LeverTime (Nov 8, 2008)

cdavant said:


> Lots of previous threads.
> 
> I finally went with a Kahr PM9 9mm 3" in a pancake holster. It's under 16oz. loaded and very hard to see in a jacket pocket. It could pass for a large wallet in your trousers.


+1 I think Kahr is a good choice for easy concealment.


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

Lowndes said:


> I just couldn't imagine myself in a position where carrying a concealed handgun would be beneficial at all. Or put more accurately the extremely small occasion it might be beneficial doesn't come close to outweighing the inconvenience (both mentally and physically) of carrying a concealed weapon.
> 
> Now, I don't want to come across as anti gun in anyway. I'm pretty strongly pro gun and own quite a few myself. Just curious as to why people would choose to carry a concealed weapon?


If you lived in the most dangerous city in America, you would not have to ask that question.


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## Lowndes (Feb 25, 2008)

Claybuster said:


> If you lived in the most dangerous city in America, you would not have to ask that question.


Possibly, but I have lived in some cities known to be quite dangerous (Oakland, Ca for instance) and have never felt like it would be beneficial to have a concealed weapon. I would imagine that most people who frequent these message board, even if they do live in a dangerous area, don't frequent the most dangerous parts of town.

However, that is besides the point as if somebody wants to carry a concealed weapon that is their choice and I could care less. If it makes you feel safer by all means have it. I am more curious if we have a lot of FBI agents/police officers/people who must carry a concealed weapon on AAAC? Again, just curious.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

Lowndes said:


> Just curious as to why people would choose to carry a concealed weapon?


Because (i) it's my right to do so and (ii) if, Heaven forfend, there's ever a situation where a gun would allow me to defend my life or the life of a loved one, I'd certainly hate to be in the position of bringing a fist or a rock to a gunfight.

I will point out that I also visit a range weekly and take a handgun combat class on average about a weekend a year, to stay sharp and keep reactions trained, a discipline I encourage every armed citizen to maintain.

DH


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## chava (Mar 17, 2009)

*ccw*



Lowndes said:


> Wow, I didn't realize how many people out there carried concealed guns? Are you guys police or FBI agents or just carry a concealed handgun for your own safety? I just couldn't imagine myself in a position where carrying a concealed handgun would be beneficial at all. Or put more accurately the extremely small occasion it might be beneficial doesn't come close to outweighing the inconvenience (both mentally and physically) of carrying a concealed weapon.
> 
> Now, I don't want to come across as anti gun in anyway. I'm pretty strongly pro gun and own quite a few myself. Just curious as to why people would choose to carry a concealed weapon?


If you ever needed it and didn't have it, you would understand. When your life rests in the hands of another person, you get it. But, if you are not allowed or choose not to carry, then at the very least, you should be highly aware of your surroundings, and avoid compromising situations. Plus, you should be physically capable and trained to use physical force if necessary. This may sound paranoid, I don't know. I can only speak from 30 years experience in dealing with every kind of [email protected]$hole the world has to offer.


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## Lowndes (Feb 25, 2008)

chava said:


> If you ever needed it and didn't have it, you would understand. When your life rests in the hands of another person, you get it. But, if you are not allowed or choose not to carry, then at the very least, you should be highly aware of your surroundings, and avoid compromising situations. Plus, you should be physically capable and trained to use physical force if necessary. This may sound paranoid, I don't know. I can only speak from 30 years experience in dealing with every kind of [email protected]$hole the world has to offer.


Thanks, I was just curious as to why people do carry a concealed weapon. I was just curious whether it was mostly people who did it because of their job (FBI agent, etc.) or every day citizens.


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## chava (Mar 17, 2009)

*ccw*



selliott58 said:


> In a former life, I carried several pistols (P7 - M13, Sig 226, Glock 18) under suits - sport-coats. The one undeniable fact is it required some work by my tailor in terms of the jackets worn while carrying. No matter what you know it's there and the clothing certainly fit less than the norm.
> 
> Several companies make very good concealment holsters. (Bianchi, Galco) One I used to use was made by a company called minuteman. Open top holster, very high and close to the body and unlined, so rather thin. I also liked it as it could be worn with a narrower dress belt as opposed to the wider variety. It might be advisable to head to the local gun store and test a number of them out.
> 
> Ankle Holsters, tolerable for a back up, bad for anything else. Not a fan of shoulder holsters or Mexican carry (No holster -small of back). Worked great for Don Johnson in Miami Vice...


I agree. My only comment is that while the ankle holster should never be used for offensive use, such as police work, personal protection service, etc., I find it the most comfortable and versatile. Therefore, I am less likely to "not" carry. But, it is certainly the least accessible... purely defensive. My personal choice for holstered CCW is the S&W 642, or my 30 year old model 60. For pocket carry, I prefer the High Standard 22 mag derringer... again, purely defensive. This is a weird topic for this forum.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Lowndes said:


> Thanks, I was just curious as to why people do carry a concealed weapon. I was just curious whether it was mostly people who did it because of their job (FBI agent, etc.) or every day citizens.


We don't aways pick our enemies. Sometimes, most times, they pick us. For me, out of the blue thugs started threatening me. I didn't know why. I spent about a week or maybe it was two weeks trying to figure out why. And today I still don't know why. I have one idea of why. One day I called the cops after being threatened, and they said, "We don't care if they beat you up, we don't care if they kill you, were not going to help you, hange up.", twise. If you believe all cops are good people, which is a childish thought, you need to reconsider. Even the FBI says in some of there reports that the mob control some whole counties and steals some of the tax money. That means they own the police, proscutors and judges, so they decide who gets pursued and who doesn't. About 25 years later with numorous attemps on my life, and other thugs telling to always carry a gun everywhere, and before that perverts tried getting me, unless you have tremedous faith in God and He agrees, a gun is a nice way to keep some at bay. Thugs don't want to get shot, and I don't mind shooting them. They sell drugs knowing which ones can cause brain damage, and they grab beautyfull young ladies and rape them, beat them, make sex movies of them, shove them into continuous rape by name of prostitution, and then dump there bodies. These people care for nobody. The only thing that holds them together is partnership in crime. Friends never ask a friend or friends to do something wrong, so they are not friends among themselves, including their children.

It is sad the way life can really be. And a lot of women should carry a gun all the time, and not be trusting of make believe friends. Some people you think are the nicest people on earth, they seem so congenial and caring, you find out they are horrible predators. There is a tremendous amount of crime that is done out of public sight. A five day waiting period to buy protection is what the mob likes and WA state has that law, which is really illegal, and if there is an honest court system here it hasn't removed it. Since Government cannot always defend you, nor will it always defend you, then no Government has a right to take away you capability to defend yourself. Packing a concealed weapon isn't always a choice. Sometimes it is a need. Even Jesus said, "Only a fool goes without a sword." Todays world a sword is equivelent to a gun. God above knows there are evil people. No guns in parks means some good people can't go into the parks, but criminals can (Government has it backwards, because good people aren't the problem). Concealed handgun allows some people not to stand out. So, as you can see, it is important to have these discussion in the clothing forums.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^Wow! I didn't see that post coming from your direction, WA. Things can get tough out there...have you ever had to use your weapon on an adversary? If so, I suspect you might agree that such an experience is pretty traumatic, to all involved in the event...indeed, such can haunt one forever!



Lowndes said:


> Thanks, I was just curious as to why people do carry a concealed weapon. I was just curious whether it was mostly people who did it because of their job (FBI agent, etc.) or every day citizens.


Having retired from careers in the military and in law enforcement, I carried weapons (concealed and otherwise), as necessary, for much of my adult life. Since retiring (the last time) in 2003, I have not found it necessary to carry concealed...it's been very liberating, I might add!


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## edhillpr (Apr 19, 2007)

>>Possibly, but I have lived in some cities known to be quite dangerous (Oakland, Ca for instance) and have never felt like it would be beneficial to have a concealed weapon. I would imagine that most people who frequent these message board, even if they do live in a dangerous area, don't frequent the most dangerous parts of town.>>

So, you believe that all you have to do is "don't frequent the most dangerous parts of town". I disagree. What if you can't afford to move to a better neighborhood?

In college in the 80's I thought that guns were unneeded. 

Later as a news video cameraman and editor in Florida cities, I shot video of many people who were dead victims of violent crime. I have seen plenty of people with bullet wounds and blood saturated clothes, while the paramedics work on them. I also shot a news story where a woman saved her life by shooting her armed ex-husband, when he tried to kidnap her.
My experience as a news camera man changed my view point on guns for self defense.

Years later as a young, underpaid programmer I lived in a poor neighborhood near MacDill AFB in Tampa, FL. In the course of two years in Tampa with my wife and toddler son we experienced;

> the Tampa police did nothing when we complained about our neighbors who were obviously selling drugs out of their duplex
> The police took 3 hours to respond one morning when burglars were brazenly carrying all the goods out of another neighbor' house. 
> There was a shoot out in the street just 2 houses down
We moved to a nicer looking neighborhood;
> a person was shot and dumped out of a car in a driveway a block from our house
> One night as I stopped to get a newspaper on Westshore Blvd a guy ran up and tried to open my new car door as I was getting ready to leave. I left behind a possible car jacker as quickly as I could.

Trouble will sometimes find you.

Having the responsibility to protect my family, I acquired a pistol and started practicing. I also attended Int Defensive Pistol Assoc practice twice monthly for a year. I also got the concealed carry permit.

There is no worse feeling than to hear gunshots in the street, and all you can do is put your 3 year old child low on the floor and hope that no gun shots or unwanted visitors come into your house. I would rather be prepared. 

So yes, concealed carry is necessary, even when you avoid trouble. Trouble will some times find you. Be prepared is a good motto.


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## Lowndes (Feb 25, 2008)

Thanks guy, I appreciate the replies. No need to try to convince me to carry a concealed weapon or to tell me its necessary because this is my believe. Just like I would never tell somebody it is unnecessary.

I'll never carry a concealed weapon in my life but was just curious as to some of the reasons why people chose too. I definitely appreciate you guys taking the time to provide me some insight. I especially appreciated the last three replies and apologize if I asked a question on a touchy subject. Hope you guys have a great Saturday.


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## Limniscate (Jul 23, 2008)

selliott58 said:


> In a former life, I carried several pistols (P7 - M13, Sig 226, Glock 18) under suits - sport-coats. The one undeniable fact is it required some work by my tailor in terms of the jackets worn while carrying. No matter what you know it's there and the clothing certainly fit less than the norm.


Why in the world were you carrying a Glock 18? Isn't that the select fire version?


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## Crane's (Sep 18, 2008)

Lowndes said:


> Thanks, I was just curious as to why people do carry a concealed weapon. I was just curious whether it was mostly people who did it because of their job (FBI agent, etc.) or every day citizens.


I'm a multi level multi discipline firearms instructor and I occasionaly get involved in protective services.

Other than that I'm just another civilian who decided to gain some leverage over the muggers, rapists and other predatory criminal elements. I refuse to be a victim without a fighting chance.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Wow! I didn't see that post coming from your direction, WA. Things can get tough out there...have you ever had to use your weapon on an adversary? If so, I suspect you might agree that such an experience is pretty traumatic, to all involved in the event...indeed, such can haunt one forever!


It is much wiser to walk away or run away. I think shooting somebody would be the last resort, though it would save a lot of other people much grief. I'm a firm believer in capital punishment and millstones. I believe organized criminals should be open season, that is for hunting them. Afterall, do not innocent men kill innocent men in war?

I don't understand why people love violence. Some of these people are dirt poor and others make millions in honest money, so why the crime?


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

My answer is Ruger LCP or Ruger LCR.


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## D4N (Mar 15, 2009)

Lowndes said:


> Wow, I didn't realize how many people out there carried concealed guns? Are you guys police or FBI agents or just carry a concealed handgun for your own safety?


I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

My Glock 26 saved my life once already and I'm not even out of my 20s yet.

To answer the original question however: When I am wearing a suit I carry a Kel-Tek P32 which you barely even notice.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

WA: Ideally that would be nice, but it doesn't always work out like roses and unicorn farts in reality. I don't carry concealed and don't want to -- where I live there's barely enough of a threat. But I think people have the right to if they choose (and are mentally sound of course).


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

Funny, I live in Chicago and would never consider carrying even if Illinois law permitted it. To each his own.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Indeed, to each their own. I didn't say it was NECESSARY if you live in high crime areas, but one should be able to have some peace of mind if they feel unsafe.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

selliott58 said:


> In a former life, I carried several pistols (P7 - M13, Sig 226, Glock 18) under suits - sport-coats.


Glock 18? Do tell.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

If you're going with a pocket pistol, skip the Kel-Tec, skip the Ruger, and get thee a Rohrbaugh.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

Yeah the Glock 18 is a select fire weapon, and probably not the best weapon for a close quarters situation especially if bystanders are around. Granted it may have been a typo for a Glock 19.


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## Mr. Golem (Mar 18, 2006)

Can someone shed some light on what "select fire" means? I've read around about firearms before but I've never heard this term before.


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## Mike89LX (Jan 15, 2009)

It's used to select the rate of fire. In the case of the Glock 19 it's full-auto or semi-auto


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Mike89LX said:


> It's used to select the rate of fire. In the case of the Glock 19 it's full-auto or semi-auto


The Glock 18 is select fire. The Glock 19 is the medium frame, semi-automatic 9mm.


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## Mike89LX (Jan 15, 2009)

Oops, the fingers didn't translate what the brain was thinking. Thank you for the correction


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

dwebber18 said:


> Yeah the Glock 18 is a select fire weapon, and probably not the best weapon for a close quarters situation especially if bystanders are around. Granted it may have been a typo for a Glock 19.


I read it's surprisingly accurate, actually. (As long as you limit yourself to short bursts.)


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

dwebber18 said:


> Yeah the Glock 18 is a select fire weapon, and probably not the best weapon for a close quarters situation especially if bystanders are around.


While off the topic of "the bulge" I've always considered a revolver to be the best choice for personal protection. There is no safety to deal with and you never have to walk around with a cocked weapon, although double action does help with the latter.

Even better, a revolver doesn't jam. If it doesn't fire when you pull the trigger, just pull it again.

Finally, and I think this is the best, a revolver is much easier to clean and maintain. I have a handgun and a permit to carry it (which I generally don't do), but I'm not a fanatic about guns and I don't like to spend any more time cleaning one than I have to. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Crane's (Sep 18, 2008)

There is no such thing as the best gun in that aspect. Each action has it's pros and cons just like the age old revolver versus auto comparison. The best gun for an individual (in this context) is the one that fits their hand comfortably, has passed a suitable failure test, in the largest caliber (within reason) that they can shoot accurately and will practice with, and the one they will carry with them at all times.

This was covered in your CCW course.

As I said earlier I carry any number of guns concealed. My choices include NAA mini revolvers 22LR and mag versions, NAA Guardian 32 or 380, S&W model 60, Kimber Custom Eclipse, Glock 26 or 22. What I chose to carry is dependent on clothing worn, time of year, and whether it's for work or not.

As you can see I carry about any combination of action revolver/auto combo you can get. I have no particular favorite though I tend to carry the smaller framed guns for obvious reasons.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> There is no safety to deal with and you never have to walk around with a cocked weapon, although double action does help with the latter.
> 
> Even better, a revolver doesn't jam. If it doesn't fire when you pull the trigger, just pull it again.


A revolver doesn't have a safety? I have a Smith and Wesson police .38 and it has a safety.

Aside from that, I agree with everything you wrote, and I too hate using my guns or playing about because I hate spending time cleaning them. Lazy. Revolvers are great, but they aren't as compact. "Bullet in chamber" always makes me nervous with my semi-automatics.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Crane's said:


> There is no such thing as the best gun in that aspect. Each action has it's pros and cons just like the age old revolver versus auto comparison.


Please note that I made no argument for a single "best gun". I merely said what I have always considered to be the best choice for me. What someone else considers to be their best choice is up to them.



> This was covered in your CCW course.


Technically speaking I've never had a CCW course. Concealment is not required in my State so I guess it would more accurately be called a handgun carry course. :icon_smile_big:

Actually most of my handgun training came in the service where, as a medical corpsman, my assigned weapon was the .45. I hated to clean that thing so maybe that's what turned me off of semi-automatics.

Cruiser


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## selliott58 (Oct 20, 2008)

Limniscate said:


> Why in the world were you carrying a Glock 18? Isn't that the select fire version?


Yes, the 18 is the select fire version. In close quarters for certain protective details it was much handier and discreet than an MP5K or micro UZI. As for controllability, the gun is built compensated to tone down the muzzle climb. Someone else mentioned controlling your burst rate, and thats the key. Learning to rattle off three to five round bursts made the weapon surprisingly controllable and accurate.

However, the boy in me would occasionally come out at the range.....and you just have to keep that trigger depressed.....:aportnoy:


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Full auto is so much fun, but loading the mags is a real pain. Not to mention the cost of ammo.


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## Crane's (Sep 18, 2008)

smujd said:


> Full auto is so much fun, but loading the mags is a real pain. Not to mention the cost of ammo.


I'm lucky, sometimes I'm invited to weapons demonstrations so I've shot some really cool guns including machine guns. Eons ago I used to shoot one of these on a regular basis. I wish I would have bought one, it was a blast.


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

*Belly band*

Has anyone ever tried a belly band worn high, with the weapon under the arm for crossdraw? Most button-downs have more room to breathe in that area (depending on your build), and probably not a place people will be looking at lot. I imagine it would be easier to modify your shirt buttons to be cowboy-style breakaway than to tailor all your suits for an IWB holster. You can keep extra mags on the other side to make the drape more symmetrical. You could do the same with an underarm holster, provided it wasn't a dark color, which they all seem to be.

I highly doubt that any concealed option is that visible, even in a suit. You are conscious of it's visibility because you are looking for it. Before you started carrying, did you ever notice anyone "printing"? Do you really think anyone else is?


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

*Great thread.*

This was a surprising find today.

My preference has been for a G19 in a IWB on the strong (shooting hand) side covered by untucked shirt, jacket, sweater, etc. I've gone with the venerable .45 (either Government model or USGI 1911A1) but the pistol grip sticks out too far.

Alternative means of carry for me have been the shoulder holster (.45) and "fanny" pack (called by another name as well). The shoulder holster with a generous cut suit works well for wear and concealment, but isn't really a good option. You will sweep your weak side arm and anyone behind or next to you as you draw and get your sights on target. The waist pack works well enough and has room for extra mags, flashlight, etc., but it can scream "concealed pistol" especially based on the color of the fabric and the telltale loop of nylon braid or rope that your weakside hand would pull on to open pack.

A buddy of mine who was OGA (other government agency) used to carry a .45 in an SOB holster. When he worked there, they trained with Browning Hi-Powers and there was a complicated (I think) way of accessing the pistol -- weak side would raise the back of the suit coat, strong side would grasp the pistol by pistol grip, etc. Fall back on your back once and you'll get a sense of why the SOB is not an ideal holster.

Another buddy of mine is with DS and he much prefers having his strong side holster up in front, as opposed to the side. You'll see a lot of women carry this way because of the shape of their hips. No one makes fun of him for carrying this way as he's smokin' hot with pistol, carbine, etc. Finally, a former GF of mine used to use the belly band for a G22 and G27. She liked it a lot and it didn't seem to print. The technique for accessing the pistol would require the weak hand to lift up whatever clothes were in the way befor the strong hand could access the pistol.

People tend to be self-conscious about carrying and a former NYPD buddy of mine told me he could tell who was carrying long before seeing any printing by the way that "perpetrators" were constantly reassurng themselves that their piece was still there. Lots of touching with the hand or nudging with the elbow, or pulling shirt/jacket/sweater material down on the carrying side.


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## Cavebear58 (Jan 31, 2010)

*Random question...*



robb01 said:


> I recently received my concealed carry permit and was wondering how to avoid the unsightly lump on my side. I've considered doing an ankle holster, but I'm not sure, any thoughts?


Perish the thought that anyone would ask WHY, I did nonetheless ponder when it was that British Bobbies stopped carrying truncheons concealed down the side of their legs?

Must have been a tailoring nightmare!

Cheers, Graham.


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

Cavebear58 said:


> Perish the thought that anyone would ask WHY, I did nonetheless ponder when it was that British Bobbies stopped carrying truncheons concealed down the side of their legs?
> 
> Must have been a tailoring nightmare!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


Why is irrelevant. Why do you drive a car, why do you wear the clothes that you wear, why do you eat ____ for breakfast? Why is personal. Personally, I carry because when seconds count, the police are just minutes away. I recognize that there is danger in the world and that it can strike anywhere.

Getting to the topic at hand, I've been carrying a Ruger P95 (full-size 9mm) for 2 1/2 years now IWB. I've worn it with t-shirts sportshirts, tucked in dress shirts, and yes, even suits (every time I go to the symphony I'm suited and armed). Unless you know what you're looking for, most people can't tell or never notice in the first place.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

I'm 5'6" and I would be hard pressed to stash my Glock 19 anywhere useful without a print. But my Kahr P9 9mm in a Desantis Nemesis holster just drops into a coat or jacket pocket or passes for a wallet in my pants. I suspect if I needed more than a couple of shots or the target was more than a few feet away I'd be on my way somewhere else, anyway. 

For those of us who only CC when we know someone is no longer a guest of the state mental health system the under-a-pound pistols seem to meet a need without alarming the other guests.


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

Joe Cool said:


> IWB just behind the hip with a good gun belt will make a small or medium frame handgun very hard to detect with a minimum of fuss.
> 
> As noted above, pocket carry of small airweight revolvers and autos with a good pocket holster is another great option which won't require dissecting your entire wardrobe.


I would like to add an "In the Waist Band" (IWB) Milt Sparks Versa Max II will house a small, medium or large carry comfortable and inconspicuous wearing at the 4 o'clock position. All IWB require a good belt for the occasion (sturdy). I find it a full frame 1911 very concealable as it may be a tad bit long but is sits flat which I feel is more important as it reduces bulge.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Like Gen. Jack Ripper, I carry my .30 cal in my golf bag without any noticeable bulge.



It's good to have a caddy to help with the belt-feeding part.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

i have made a few soft drill cloth holsters. and sewn them into the inside of the trouser waist bands. they were for small, light? frame 32s. 
just added a bit of gut to the jackets.


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## fat paul (Aug 26, 2008)

I carry a sig sauer p220 in .45acp or a sig sauer p239 in .40 cal. Strong side in a pancake holster (self made). Due to my size and the fact that I almost always wear a sportcoat/blazer concealing is no problem. I often ask my wife (18.5 years as a police officer) if she can see any printing, she never has answerd in the affermative.
cheers, fat paul


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Like Gen. Jack Ripper, I carry my .30 cal in my golf bag without any noticeable bulge.


Hell, if I've got my golf bag with me, I can just hit knock-down 2-irons at them till they go down.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

I carry a Taurus 709 'Slim' and it conceals well.

You don't have to go with super baggy clothing to carry. For example, I'm carrying in the photo below even though the suit is very fitted:








There's a slight bump but no one is going to notice it unless they know right where to look.

The key is finding the right firearm, holster and the right spot on your body to carry. For me (as skinny as I am) the inward curve of my waist conceals the gun just fine without any alterations needed to my clothing. It also helps if the material is fairly heavy weight.










As others have said, the ankle holster isn't suitable for your primary. Would be okay for secondary, but just be aware that it adds unwanted bulk to your ankle and can flop around if/when you run. Plus getting to it in any position other than sitting or kneeling is pretty slow and awkward.

Try different things and see which one works the best for you.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

thunderw21 said:


> I
> The key is finding the right firearm, holster and the right spot on your body to carry. For me (as skinny as I am) the inward curve of my waist conceals the gun just fine without any alterations needed to my clothing. It also helps if the material is fairly heavy weight.


A belt and braces and a gun. You don't take any chances do you ?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

nehpets99 said:


> ...
> Getting to the topic at hand, I've been carrying a Ruger P95 (full-size 9mm) for 2 1/2 years now IWB. I've worn it with t-shirts sportshirts, tucked in dress shirts, and yes, even suits (every time I go to the symphony I'm suited and armed). Unless you know what you're looking for, most people can't tell or never notice in the first place.


ROFALOL! You get in a lot of firefights at the symphony. If so, by gawd, you win...you definitely run in a much tougher crowd than I do! In the 31+ years I spent working in law enforcement, I cannot remember ever having to do that.


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit (Dec 25, 2008)

This is why Arizona's a great state. Open carry's legal here, so not a wallet, cell phone, or the errant concealed pistol will destroy the silhouette of your suit.

Why, you can even carry your gun to a bar.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> A belt and braces and a gun. You don't take any chances do you ?


I don't. :icon_smile_wink:

The belt is for the gun, not the trousers. You have to have a belt if you carry IWB (inside the waistband). The braces are for the trousers. And the gun, well, that's for me. :icon_smile_big:


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> ROFALOL! You get in a lot of firefights at the symphony. If so, by gawd, you win...you definitely run in a much tougher crowd than I do! In the 31+ years I spent working in law enforcement, I cannot remember ever having to do that.


The venue is downtown of a major city. Think higher crime level. As ex-"working in law enforcement" you of all people should appreciate that bad things can happen anywhere. My friend saw a concert with me a few months ago and got some pretty cold stares from a group while walking to his car. He was carrying that night and might've needed it if the group had felt bold enough to continue harassing a scrawny guy.

Thanks for judging though ::thumbs up::


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> You get in a lot of firefights at the symphony.


:icon_smile_big:

I did that once, not a firefight and not the symphony; but I did strap on a firearm to go downtown. I was meeting an out of town friend at a downtown hotel and I knew I would be walking several blocks in a relatively deserted area late at night, so I strapped on the old .357. Concealment isn't required in my State but I hid that puppy every way I could even though I have had a carry permit for years.

Long story short, I have never felt so self conscious in my life as when I was walking across that hotel lobby with a concealed handgun. I felt like everyone there was looking at me, especially the uniformed police officer who was working security for the hotel. That gun felt as big as a watermelon under my jacket.

That was six years ago and with the exception of putting it in my car when I travel, I haven't carried it on my person again.

Cruiser


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

CuffDaddy said:


> Hell, if I've got my golf bag with me, I can just hit knock-down 2-irons at them till they go down.


I dunno . . . I worry that trying to nail "the deuce" consistently could compromise the purity of one's essence. Plus, a 2-iron's rate of fire is pretty low. I prefer something with a little more steam in its stride.

On the "toting a gat to the symphony" matter, perhaps musicians would play better if they knew that the seats were filled with patrons packing heat? The "riot" at the premiere of Stravinsky's _Sacre du printemps _might well have been an even livelier affair than it was (but now that I think of it, in Paris in 1913 there would almost certainly have been people in the audience with guns).


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

thunderw21 said:


>


It does work nicely, but if you must go without jacket from time to time, that belt clip is a dead giveaway. They must make a J-clip or something that will clip behind the belt. As for the bulge, a few mags on the other hip will even you out.

Perhaps you need a brace-clip to eliminate the belt redundancy


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

nehpets99 said:


> The venue is downtown of a major city. Think higher crime level. As ex-"working in law enforcement" you of all people should appreciate that bad things can happen anywhere. My friend saw a concert with me a few months ago and got some pretty cold stares from a group while walking to his car. He was carrying that night and might've needed it if the group had felt bold enough to continue harassing a scrawny guy.
> 
> Thanks for judging though ::thumbs up::


Sorry if my comment caused any unintended offense but, during the many years I carried, because I was paid to do so, I discarded a number of suit and sport coats, fallen victim to premature wear caused by the frames of the various weapons I carried. None of them are kind to fabric. Since retiring and encasing my badge, credentials, etc, as memorabilia in a shadow box I honestly have not felt the need to carry. I do make several evening trips into the city (Chicago, IL) throughout the year but, just haven't felt that threatened. The gravest threat I face out here in NW Indiana is from the raccoon family that tries to take up residence under our front porch each summer! Perhaps I could strap on the gun belt to show those critters I mean business!


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> Sorry if my comment caused any unintended offense but, during the many years I carried, because I was paid to do so, I discarded a number of suit and sport coats, fallen victim to premature wear caused by the frames of the various weapons I carried. None of them are kind to fabric. Since retiring and encasing my badge, credentials, etc, as memorabilia in a shadow box I honestly have not felt the need to carry. I do make several evening trips into the city (Chicago, IL) throughout the year but, just haven't felt that threatened. The gravest threat I face out here in NW Indiana is from the raccoon family that tries to take up residence under our front porch each summer! Perhaps I could strap on the gun belt to show those critters I mean business!


It's not that I feel a need to carry per se (I don't feel an imminent threat all of the time) I recognize that crime happens and like to be prepared. The suit I wear to the symphony is a cheap one from Kohls. That's no excuse to put excessive wear on it, but after a dozen or so concerts it's still doing ok.

Sorry to sound snooty before.


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## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

smujd said:


> Full auto is so much fun, but loading the mags is a real pain. Not to mention the cost of ammo.


That is what belt feeders are for. Damn I miss my MAG58 and 1919A4.

In my country carrying any type of firearm for self defense is completely illegal for regular citizens.

That said, many years ago I ran into some trouble and decided to carry illegally. Despite the danger I found the SOB to be the most convenient and easiest to hide. I am only 5'6" but with a deep curve to my back and this combined with a thin pistol worked quite well.

One thing that is important as Knezz indicated is the actual thickness of the handgun. I never found any double stack autos to hide well. The same goes for revolvers, that cylinder is way to thick and bulgy. As such despite the full size I always found the 1911 to be perfect especially when fitted with very thin and smooth hard grips. No checkering or rubber grips or roughness to catch on cloths, just a perfectly smooth polished thin exterior - cocked and locked. I am a clean freak so maintainence is a given.

I don't own guns anymore but my anti-gun wife (then girlfriend) was sure glad I had some during a home invasion.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

Don't carry a gun. You can be a man without it. And better tailored


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## Gromson (Oct 11, 2009)

Robert Mika makes a very simple and inexpensive holster for the SW 642. It's not art, but it works well enough and he adds a nice note inside when he makes one for you. (At least he did in mine, so I assume he does for all of them.) It's still somewhat bulgy in the pocket, but it's a safe way to carry the 642 and breaks up the silhouette.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Simon Myerson said:


> Don't carry a gun. You can be a man without it. And better tailored


You and I do not legally get to make that choice of course.

Dirty Harry seemed to manage with an Ivy style, herringbone sack jacket. No darts probably helps. Not that I recall any good footage where Harry clearly has the Magnum holstered though.


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## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

come to think of it wasn't the sack suit's main purpose to carry and conceal firearms easily?


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

Simon Myerson said:


> Don't carry a gun. You can be a man without it. And better tailored


Women carry guns too, ya know. It is being "armed" that is the purpose rather than being "a man". A certain sex organ and proper manners suffice for the latter. Yes, it is indeed more difficult to maintain a shapely figure with a double-stack .45 ACP semiauto in your pants, but as with love handles or fatneck, just another sartorial challenge to met with gusto.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

thunderw21 said:


> :


Is that you, Wilmer??


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

vatoemperor said:


> Women carry guns too, ya know...


Yup, the largest growing segment of shooters and carriers are women.

Has nothing to do with being manly or compensating as many anti-gunners say.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

I agree, my wife has her permit and a gun. She is still in school so carrying isn't really an option. It all comes down to getting a gun that fits your lifestyle and your clothing choices. I carry a bigger gun because I can, she will have to have a new gun because even her compact Taurus is too big being a double stack. I'm planning to get her a kel-tec or a new Walther PPS since they are both quite slim when she gets to a point where she can actually carry.


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

thunderw21 said:


> Has nothing to do with being manly or compensating as many anti-gunners say.


Yeaaahh, you are DA MAN with all that extra STARCH in your shirt!

I never quite understood how a concealed, secret weapon that no one will ever know about could be an effective way of 'compensating' for anything. Better to just buy yourself a Tarantino "Pussy Wagon" and a pair of Kenneth Coles.


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## alphadelta (Oct 2, 2007)

As a gun owner and former university pistol team champion I can relate to some of the comments in this thread. I never had (and probably never will) carry a concealed handgun. 

I lived in Mexico City for a year, five years in Moscow as well as a lot of time in Asia, Europe, etc. To me, 99% of self defense (and self-preservation) is 1) awareness and 2) avoidance -- be aware of your surrounding and people near you and avoid a potentially dangerous situation. 

Having said that, I carried pepper spray (Fox is highly recommended) when I lived and traveled in dangerous locals. Shooting someone, even if you have a CCW and in self-defense will really mess up your life. Figure on $10k - $25k in legal fees, potential civil law suits (the perp's kin love to go after the money). I'd have no qualms about spraying someone with pepper, kicking them in the balls and running like hell -- no paper work to file afterwords. It will stop a grizzly bear.

There are a lot of places you can't carry a gun even with a CCW (bars, etc.) but pepper spray is usually not as much of a problem. Also, it does not mess up my nice tailored suits as much as my Colt lightweight Commander would.

Just my thoughts.

AD


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

alphadelta said:


> Shooting someone, even if you have a CCW and in self-defense will really mess up your life.


But the point is you're alive. Sure as hell beats the alternative.

Crime happens, period. You can take all the precautions you want and you can still be the victim of a violent crime. So I choose to prepare myself for such a chance, for the 1% not covered by awareness and avoidance. Out of 100 times I'm aware and I avoid, I don't want to be unprepared that 1 time.


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

Depends on where you are. Probably not in Moscow or Mexico City. Castle Doctrine and Stand-Your-Ground laws in Florda render you immune from criminal AND civil liability in preventing the commission of a forcible felony (if the shooting is deemed justified). They can still sue, but any such case will be dismissed once it gets to a judge, as the law is clear. They family/perp will be responsible for any legal costs on your behalf. Attorneys dont make a lot of money taking loser cases, they wait for the guy that f*s up. Just make sure that guy isn't you.

Guns don't replace common sense. Awareness and alertness and some common sense will keep you out of victim status 99% of the time. The other 1% is where you START considering deadly force, and the gun is the "nuclear" option.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

thunderw21 said:


> Yup, the largest growing segment of shooters and carriers are women.
> 
> Has nothing to do with being manly or compensating as many anti-gunners say.


For some it is. This isn't representative of everybody, however.


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## richardUK (Nov 29, 2009)

nehpets99 said:


> But the point is you're alive. Sure as hell beats the alternative.
> 
> Crime happens, period. You can take all the precautions you want and you can still be the victim of a violent crime. So I choose to prepare myself for such a chance, for the 1% not covered by awareness and avoidance. Out of 100 times I'm aware and I avoid, I don't want to be unprepared that 1 time.


youre alive as long as they dont shoot back & kill you
or someone with them shoots & kills you

is it really 1% of the time?

ie. if youve had 200 trips to a certain area, youve been a victim of violent crime twice?


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm sure it's not about being a man. It's just striking that the tone of the comments is more like, 'look at my hot body' than 'do you like my shirt'. But I'm sure there is a reason for this - somewhere.

24 years as a lawyer and I have never come across a position where a gun would have made things better rather than worse. Although, obviously, if you can't think of anything else to stop yourself feeling safe, then that's _just _the time to carry a lethal weapon. Don't return fire - run away. That way 11 year-olds don't die - as one did in the UK last year.

And you'll be so much better attired


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

richardUK said:


> youre alive as long as they dont shoot back & kill you
> or someone with them shoots & kills you
> 
> is it really 1% of the time?
> ...


The 1% I quoted from another poster. I think that the percentage is far lower. 2 1/2 years I've been carrying a firearm and I've never had to draw--but there have been 2-3 times where I've thought I *MIGHT* have to. The "but you're alive" comment was in response to something the quoted poster said. Please read it in context.

Simon: being from the UK I could understand how you wouldn't fully grasp the concept of using a firearm for self defense. At 250lbs (little of which is muscle) outrunning an assailant is not an option. Same goes for my friends who are in wheelchairs. Same goes for if someone breaks into my 1-door apartment. My state requires you make at least an effort to retreat, but if I'm cornered or if running away is not a viable option, if my life is in danger I'm going to draw.

Obviously any time you have to use a firearm and injure someone, the overall situation is bad. But if it comes down to me being sent to the hospital/coroner or some criminal being sent to the hospital/coroner, which do you think I will prefer?


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## fat paul (Aug 26, 2008)

As far as the big man with a gun comment, it's a bunch of B.S. I have no desire to be in an armed confrontation. But I will not leave my family unprotected. As I noted in an earlier post my wife is a police officer of 18.5 years (I am very proud of both her and her profession). She felt so strongly about the dangers of the streets of our city that she bought my CCW class for our 26th anaversery(sic) present. When she retires from police work in 1.5 years she plans to still carry a ccp. Oh and by the way she said that she has seen many times that a weapon in the hands of a "good guy" has saved the day.
thanks, fat paul


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

My situation is simple. Every morning for the past 34 years I've walked my dogs around the circle I live on. I have no other way to go. Half way around is a house owned by an 82 year old woman who spends most of her time in Arizona. Sometimes her paranoid schizophrenic son stays there when he is not in jail or a psych ward. I have no way of knowing if he is there. Last year he went after his sister with a hatchet, was brought into our ER where I was on call and described in great detail what he was going to do with me when he got out of the handcuffs. A few days later his girl friend showed up on my porch at 6AM asking for a ride. I didn't give her one but the local police did. She had an 8" butcher knife in her sock.
So, I never know if they are there or what frame of mind they are in. The police have advised me not to worry about them, requesting only that I fire more than one shot if I'm accosted. There is a lot more paperwork if an attacker is only wounded and since there is more than enough documentation that my life has been threatened a couple of 9mm holes in a chest shouldn't present a problem.
I worry more when he is "in treatment" and likely to show up at a social gathering or the local stage company productions since his attack on his sister happened two days after the behavioral health folks decided he was ready to rejoin polite society.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

One thing that comes across on the last two post is the need for some to carry. It is tiresome to hear over and over again from the cons and other idiots that everybody that carries or even has a gun is a criminal and that everybody is a danger with a gun, except that law enforcement is magically OK. The last statement above is why it should be illegal for anybody to say if you can have a gun, including government. There are simply to many criminals wearing uniform and badge and they do not want their victims to have guns or any other system of self defense. Criminals want good people to be defenseless. The most dangerous criminals pick out their victims and surround them with make believe friends who are unaccountable. Once you are out of the loop of accountable people and with the unaccountable they can do whatever they want with you and honest people have no idea what to tell law enforcement. I believe most of the women on the internet sex sites trusted the wrong people and are being used against themselves, when the criminals are done with them they are dead. Many of those women would probably be married and have children with a regular life if she had carried a gun, instead of a shortened life as a slave (once she is not tight she is dead). These horrors happen to guys, too.

Guns in the hands of the innocent save lives. Dead criminals reduce taxes.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

As a former soldier, instructor and competitor, I have seen too many tiny semiautomatics of all brands malfunction to trust any of them. In the city, under a suit, my choice is a SW Centennial Airweight in an ankle holster. True, they are slow, but faster than a pistol left at home. The other option is a Glock or 1911 in a briefcase. Dillon, Michaels of Oregon and others offer nylon cases with dedicated concealed carry pockets. For something more elegant, I think there were leather briefcases (by Galco?) at the Pro Shop the last time I was at Gunsite.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Simon Myerson said:


> 24 years as a lawyer and I have never come across a position where a gun would have made things better rather than worse.


WOW!!

Not one dead beat up victim in 24 years prosecutorial law??

Amazing!!

I'm a revolver man but I generally keep it at home.


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

Simon Myerson said:


> I'm sure it's not about being a man. It's just striking that the tone of the comments is more like, 'look at my hot body' than 'do you like my shirt'. But I'm sure there is a reason for this - somewhere.


Hmm, I didn't get that impression at all. Though we DO look pretty good. Is that a Sig in your waistband, or are you just happy to see me? :icon_smile_wink:



Simon Myerson said:


> 24 years as a lawyer and I have never come across a position where a gun would have made things better rather than worse.


Something tells me that even if one bit you in the face you'd do your best to ignore it.



Simon Myerson said:


> Although, obviously, if you can't think of anything else to stop yourself feeling safe, then that's _just _the time to carry a lethal weapon. Don't return fire - run away.


Plan A = run away. Plan B = Kill the p****. It is nice to have a nuclear option :aportnoy:.



Simon Myerson said:


> That way 11 year-olds don't die - as one did in the UK last year.


I understand not many 11 year olds (or anyone else) are getting shot in the UK lately, mostly they are being "shanked". Not that you find it "acceptable" that Britons are defenseless against the hooligan street beasts knifing them, but you reserve a special brand of animocity for those who insist on defending themselves with a gun.

Oop, and I did indeed forget to carry the decimal on that 1 percentic12337:...it's really 0.000114% of the time where an unfriendly encounter puts me on orange alert.

My gun only makes ME safer...and my immediate family to a lesser degree. People can say what they like about concealed carry deterring crime, in reality I am very much UNLIKELY to do anything about you or your family or anyone else getting mugged, raped, robbed, etc. that I wouldn't be already be doing were I unarmed. In most cases, I'm not going to value the defense of you/(r) family any more than you do. Now, if a perp was on the verge of executing you, then I would PROBABLY take action, assuming I had a clean shot (no 11 year olds in the background ).

Most the lawyers I know (esp. proscecutors) have been threatened enough times to pack a roscoe everywhere they go. Maybe they just need to move to UK and learn hand-to-hand combat.


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## daniel1113 (Mar 14, 2007)

Simon Myerson said:


> 24 years as a lawyer and I have never come across a position where a gun would have made things better rather than worse.


People don't hire lawyers when things turn out well


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## nosajwols (Jan 27, 2010)

Some food for thought with no real point....

My father was in the RCMP in the 40s. It was optional to carry a side arm then. Only one guy in his detachment did. The logic was, you stumble into a situation with a gun you will get shot, without one you won't (you are not a threat), my guess today it is different... Then, if you know there is a robbery in progress you are grabbing the heavy fire power from the trunk anyways (not going in with the side arm). Maybe concealed carry is different because no one knows you have a gun. As I said no real point.

Now for a civilian it is likely different, the purpose is different…concealed firearms are a very poor deterrent because no one knows you have a gun (you are more likely to have to use it because the mugger-whatever thinks you are un-armed). If you were carrying cowboy style no one is likely to mess with you, and it won’t mess with the lines of your suit (just make sure the holster matches your shoes...).


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

nosajwols said:


> concealed firearms are a very poor deterrent because no one knows you have a gun (you are more likely to have to use it because the mugger-whatever thinks you are un-armed). If you were carrying cowboy style no one is likely to mess with you, and it won't mess with the lines of your suit (just make sure the holster matches your shoes...).


Concealed carry typically isn't about being a deterrent. It's about being prepared for a potentially horrible situation without advertising that you're prepared for a potentially horrible situation.

That being said, while I've never worn the combination, I would guess that my cowboy holster would go well with my AE McAllisters... :icon_smile_big:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

vatoemperor said:


> ...
> Most the lawyers I know (esp. proscecutors) have been threatened enough times to pack a roscoe everywhere they go. Maybe they just need to move to UK and learn hand-to-hand combat.


(Disclaimer: I am really, really trying to stay out of this but) Is this possibly an exaggeration? I worked with a whole lot of prosecutors and defense attorneys over the years and, to my knowledge, very few found it necessary to carry firearms on anything but an occasional basis...and even that didn't occur very often. Yes, there was the occasional cowboy who carried all the time but, they were the exception, rather than the rule!

PS: LOL, did they really call it a Roscoe(!)?


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> (
> 
> PS: LOL, did they really call it a Roscoe(!)?


Roscoe, Gat, Heater, Iron, Piece, Rod, Strap and so many more I can't remember them all.

I knew a lazy detective that didn't carry a gun on him. When asked why he replied, "If I need my gun I just hit the brakes real hard and it slides out (from under the seat). If I need my radio (to call for help) I hit the brakes twice.

:icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm not so sure a CWP regime is a weak deterrent, I think the deterrrence factor is not well understood. It has to do firstly with the existence of a regime (availability of permits), the rate of adoption (how many people actually get the permits), and local factors, like reputation of a neighborhood.

A shall-issue policy with high rates of adoption in a neighborhood known for survivalist types, deterrence will be higher, crime will be lower (as seen in rural areas of Texas with CWP regimes). A shall-issue policy with low rates of adoption, and a neighborhood reputed to be "hippy", "fruity" or "artsy-fartsy" deterrence will be lower, crime will be higher (like some areas of Miami). I think my neighborhood (older, urban, gentrified and generally safe, but in walking distance of seedy areas) attracts criminals because of this, despite shall-issue policies and high rates of adoption city-wide. The criminals just know that the tie-dyers in my 'hood aren't likely to be carrying, or even resisting.

This way, both pro- and anti-gun groups can cite statistics favorable to their position.

I said most the lawyers *I know*. Possibly an exaggeration - I didnt really count tax attorneys or in-house council as lawyers worthy of threats. I don't know a lot of lawyers that would deal with criminal cases, but most I have met carry. They would probably carry even if they werent lawyers though. All 2 proscecutors I know carry. They didn't call it Roscoe, it just seems like a badass name to use.

nosajwols is right - cops tend to be the first victims in an armed robbery situation. Perceiveable threats get taken out first. Same goes for CWP holders that don't conceal well.


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## beherethen (Jun 6, 2009)

*pocket guns*

Up until about 10 years ago, a person had two options in a tiny gun,22 or 25.
It's very hard to make a tiny 22 simi auto that will function every time. A 25 will function or " go bang every time" but we are still looking at a small bullet.
This can be improved by using frangible shells but these cost $3-$4 a piece. It's suggested that you run about 200 round through a pistol, which at $3 each comes out to *$600!!!!*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brave New World.
thanks to Kel-Tec you can carry a .380 at around *7 ounces.* If even this is too bulky you can carry a NAA 22 5 shot derringer at *4 ounces. *You can make a holster out of Kydex. and carry it around your neck, like dog tags. 
Congratulations on your permit and be safe.:icon_smile_big:


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

Love of guns + anecdotal experience = everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot.

Alas, there isn't a single study which shows that permitting guns leads to a reduction in crime. 

You either go with the evidence or you don't. Sorry.


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

Simon Myerson said:


> Love of guns + anecdotal experience = everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot.
> 
> Alas, there isn't a single study which shows that permitting guns leads to a reduction in crime.
> 
> You either go with the evidence or you don't. Sorry.


Carrying concealed firearms, to me, isn't my part in some society-wide effort to rid the darkest corners of every city of crime. It's a personal decision so that, should my life ever be in danger of severe bodily injury or death, not only am I prepared to defend my life, but the odds are in my favor.


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

Simon Myerson said:


> Love of guns + anecdotal experience = everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot.
> 
> Alas, there isn't a single study which shows that permitting guns leads to a reduction in crime.
> 
> You either go with the evidence or you don't. Sorry.


If not the decency of not putting words in my mouth (I never called you an idiot for "not agreeing with me", ar at all for that matter) at least cite the 'evidence' I should be going with, showing there has never (in the history of the world) been a single study which shows that permitting guns leads to a reduction in crime?

I wouldn't call you an idiot, but I will call you a liar. Here is at least ONE...

https://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=K...AND GUNS IN TEXAS&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=&f=false


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

beherethen said:


> Up until about 10 years ago, a person had two options in a tiny gun,22 or 25.
> It's very hard to make a tiny 22 simi auto that will function every time. A 25 will function or " go bang every time" but we are still looking at a small bullet.
> This can be improved by using frangible shells but these cost $3-$4 a piece. It's suggested that you run about 200 round through a pistol, which at $3 each comes out to *$600!!!!*
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


Ten years ago? The Seecamp .32 came out in 1986! I still like the Seecamp in .32 or .380 the best of all the mini-guns.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Whether or not you choose to carry a concealed weapon in the interest of protecting yourself and you families from violence, an equally effective or, IMHO, more effective measure would be to take the time necessary to read The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker. Should you find that to be a worth while read, continue on and read De Becker's follow-on volume, Protecting The Gift. Having encountered perhaps more than a fair share of violence during my lifetime, permit me to assure you that mental preparedness is by far, your greatest asset,should you be confronted by an unavoidable, violent confrontation!


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

^ what he said. Good read.


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## aandrews (Feb 21, 2010)

"One day I called the cops after being threatened...."

Yes, it's called the "No Duty Rule," something I trotted out as a counterargument to the local city council, for installing a fence around my residence that exceeded permissible heights. (I still regret not bringing up the .)

Cf. Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm going to try to avoid the debate on whether or not to carry. There are too many philosophies and reasons both for and against carrying. Suffice it to say, as a result of my profession, I carried a weapon for over 30 years. As a result of Federal law, as a retired cop, I still do. I'd just say that if you're going to carry one, you should be willing to use it should the necessity arise, know how to use it, practice regularly with it (marksmanship being a perishable skill) and know and comply with the law dealing with carrying a firearm.

As to carrying a pistol, it's 'cordin". What size is the weapon? The larger the weapon, the more limited the options. Big guns need big holsters and most suit jackets and sport coats, even when tailored, don't do a good job of concealment, especially when buttoned. Moreover, a buttoned jacket isn't easy to draw a weapon from and seconds are vital. I have been in several gunfights. All but one gun fight I've been involved in (excluded combat) took place up close - within approximately ten feet. The exception was less than 25 feet at its start. All were over in seconds. You have to get the weapon out in a hurry and shoot quickly since you will be reacting to someone else's action and the number 2 place shooter often gets a toe tag.

Big calibers do a better job of stopping someone. However, big guns, even those like Glock and S&W M&P with polymer-based frames are heavy, let alone 1911 types and, therefore, after a few times, especially in hot weather, they get left at home and that's no protection at all.

Currently, I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT in .380 cal. it holds 7 rounds including one in the chamber. Ruger (and, I suspect several other manufacturers, also by now, make clones. There's even a gunsmith who will give it way cool colors, including pink. I know, big macho guys, it's a .380 and that's a small caliber, but at up close and personal distances, like 3 feet or so, where the weasel trying to rob you is likely to be, and loaded with Cor Bon DPX or something similar, it's up to the job of stopping any bad guy you're likely to encounter.

The weapon is quite small and light and fits in a pocket holster. I carry it in such a holster in my front pocket. It's absolutely concealed, making no bulge in slacks or shorts, even without a jacket - a primary concern here in the deep, hot and humid South.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

I'm happy with a KAHR PM9 in a pocket holster--usually my front pants pocket, sometimes my jacket. Right at a pound loaded and no more bulge than some wallets I had back when I had money to put in them. I don't carry it as a deterrent. You don't deter a paranoid schizophrenic off his medication even if he sees you're carrying an M16. Someone who'll go after his sister with an ax isn't rational enough to be deterred by the sight of a weapon of any size.

I figure letting a couple of killer golden retrievers loose would distract him enough for a clean draw and if he's invalding my personal space my biggest concern would be waking the neighborhood at 6AM.


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## Billy Stout (May 31, 2010)

Some recommendations for the tailor if you are commissioning a "work suit" :

1. An extra circle or patch of durable lining added to the area where the butt of the weapon will sit.
2. Extra wide belt loops 
3. Consider the spacing of the belt loops. If you will be wearing a holster which your belt feeds through, have your tailor space those loops so that the holster will not have room to slide. Same for magazine holder and radio holder if applicable.
4. Side vents are not an option for a work suit, no vents is the best option, single vent is plan B.
5. Extra lining to the knees, essential for jumping in and out of vehicles.
6. Extra pockets inside the coat are also helpful, perhaps one to fit a small moleskine notebook, a pen pocket, and large pockets on the inside of both left and right breast.
7. Obviously, get measured with your gear on. A nice silhouette can still be achieved, but a work suit should never, ever, be buttoned. (Please keep in mind I'm not talking concealed weapon carry here, I'm talking about a work suit, as in, this is your job.)


I'm sure this sagacious lot can improve upon my suggestions....


Some overseas tailors who are adept at these alterations are;
Raja's Fashions - Bangkok, Thailand
Seoul Tailor - Seoul, South Korea


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## jamz (Mar 6, 2010)

Neat thread. I had wondered about this, having carried pretty extensively in the past. No so much now due to commuting legality and dress/job logistics, but I've always wondered.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Simon Myerson said:


> Love of guns + anecdotal experience = everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot.
> 
> Alas, there isn't a single study which shows that permitting guns leads to a reduction in crime.
> 
> You either go with the evidence or you don't. Sorry.


Even though he's banned, I thought I'd reply.

Check out the peer-reviewed and award winning study put forth by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, found in the book* Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control*. They found that 2 - 2.5 million people use a firearm in self defense each year in the U.S. (76% of the time the mere presence of a gun in the hands of the would be victim stopped the attacker, the other 24% of the time the would be victim fired on the attacker).

As an strongly anti-gun researcher wrote about the Kleck/Gertz study:


> "I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of _Brave New World_, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police. I hate guns--ugly, nasty instruments designed to kill people. ...
> 
> What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. ...
> 
> ...


Also:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Four months plus a banning and Mr. Myerson is still getting handgunners hot under the collar. 

Gun control will always be a sensitive subject (which I am in the middle of the road on) but let's try to keep the thread on focus.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

My day-to-day life has a threat level so low it might as well be zero. I've concluded that the only gun I can carry, conceal, and be comfortable doing it is my Ruger LCP. I carry it in a $15 uncle mikes neoprene sleeve with the chamber empty. 95% of my carry is when I'm on road trips and don't want to leave my gun in the car while I gas up, eat, etc. In the car it sits in the door map pocket, but I can put it in a back pocket of my pants as easy as a wallet, and on those rare occasions I carry it elsewhere, it disappears in the front pocket of my suits.


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## countyd (Jun 15, 2009)

As a 35 year veteran, it seems to me that Mr. Claybuster seems to have hit all the options. Most of us simply didn't wear our jackets "Ryan Seacrest" tight. As a County Detective, I modestly admit to a high reputation for my fashion sense during my years of service, and if you go to an extreme in concealing your weapon, are you also increasing the difficulty in getting to it when you need it? I'll occasionally resort to an ankle holster if I believe I'll be amongst the citizenry coatless, but I've practiced getting to it for many years. On the ankle, I'm comfortable with a S&W Centennial. Lastly, get a beat-up set of clothes identical to what you wear everday (e.g., an old suit or sportcoat you no longer care about) and practice with it on. You want to practice in what you work in. Here's hoping you need never pull it out in your lifetime.


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

Attached are photos of my belly band holster, which is my holster of choice for deep concealment (at least September-May months). It has a lot of advantages for dress clothes wearers with a medium body type. It eliminates the need for a gun belt, velcro or j-clips, which is great for style purposes and really great when you unbuckle the belt in a public toilet and don't want your pants to hit the deck like a rock and scare you $#!%less :biggrin2:. Wearing it high as shown allows the gun to hide in the blousing of the shirt so you don't have to retailor your pants with a few extra inches, and can often be more concealable than under an untucked polo. I can't really wear shirtstays anymore, so I get some extra blousing baggage throughout the day:

concealed:


underneath:


Like any IWB rig, draw time is severely limited, and you may not be able to effectively pull off a one-handed draw if you are batting away a knife-wielding scumbag with your weak hand. If I have to stop for gas in a bad area or late at night, I will untuck my shirt before to make for easier access. I want to try crossdraw to see if that is equally concealable, then I could put in breakaway buttons to increase speed.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Dhaller said:


> Small Of Back - which is generally not considered a good mode of carry.
> 
> DH


I use SoB. It's highly effective in concealment, and accessibility. It has issues with "safety" for law enforcement professionals (prohibited by DEA iirc) because it is placing 3+ pounds of steel next to your spine, and does not have a secondary form of retention.


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

vatoemperor said:


> Attached are photos of my belly band holster


Does the belly band cause a lot of perspiration?


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Racer said:


> Does the belly band cause a lot of perspiration?


Depends on the person. I didn't have issues, but if you are more "sweat-prone" you might feel like the proverbial pig.


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## vatoemperor (Jun 15, 2008)

Racer said:


> Does the belly band cause a lot of perspiration?


Depends - time of year, what you wear, how long you wear it for, and even the position it is in. Summer in the deep south is just too much. Still nice to have around - it's cheap and adds a lot of situational versatility to your wardrobe - try walking the dog in gym shorts and t-shirt with any other rig.


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