# 10 Alternatives to the Bates Plastic Uniform Shoe



## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

So you are tired of walking around in the Bates plastic nightmare, streaked indelibly by the wheels of your desk chair and the rigors of merely walking to the head and back? Or maybe the weird foam mush heel has disintegrated on you . . . again? Or, wait? You can't understand why you have one pair of lousy plastic shoes just for wearing around on any old Friday and another pair of lousy plastic shoes tucked away for "special" occasions (check the sole-it's probably dry rotted). Or maybe your feet just stink? Or maybe you just woke up one day and said, "People! Look at yourselves! You are all walking around in cheap plastic shoes!" Whatever the reason, your reason is good.

But what are the alternatives? Here is a list of 10. See you in formation!

*10. Bates Leather Uniform Oxford. $115*
As if.

*9. Dehner Classic Chukka (Black Calf). $350*
This would be a strong candidate for #1 on the list, if you have just been promoted to O6 or E9 and are now cultivating your defining eccentricities. I mean, you are already flirting around with being "that guy" who wants to wear a good leather shoe instead of the Bates plastic horror. Do you also want to be "that guy" who wears chukkas? If so, the Dehner Classic Chukka beats all other chukkas with a buttstroke. They are all made to your foot, with any upper and sole material you like. The Dehner is a near match to the Bates chukka, too, and for $350 it is flat out a good bargain. If you want to be that guy.

*8. Church's Shannon (Black Binder). $500. *
This is an expensive shoe made by a company often accused of overpricing. That said, if you own a pair of Church's you know the quality of the footbed and lining are without compare. Once it breaks in it just keeps getting better with age. Available with Danite and triple-leather sole options for an even sturdier appearance. Church's signature "Bookbinder Leather" is a corrected grain that comes out of the box with a high gloss and can handle abusive polishing. Stitching on the throat deviates somewhat from the Bates standard. Available in British sizes only, and, contrary to popular belief, going English doesn't mean just ordering a size down. English shoes are cut wider, so you may have to experiment. Not easy when the shoe is available in the US almost exclusively online.

*7. Tricker's Robert (Black Calf). $750*
How can a shoe that can only be had in black on a Made To Order basis directly from Tricker's-at about $750--beat out the Shannon? Especially since it, too, is made in English sizes and can't even been seen in the flesh until you have paid for it in full (and then after eight weeks in the Northampton factory)? It is nearly a dead-on match with the Bates standard, and if you are going to spend $500 you might as well go the full route and get the last pair of black oxfords you will ever need or want. This shoe is built like an anvil and will last forever, and its fine calfskin will, indeed, find a home in your civilian wardrobe after you retire.

*6. Allen Edmonds Leeds (Shell). $550*

The Leeds is very close to the Bates standard, and Allen Edmonds shoes are readily available in the United States. Very easy to try on. I am placing the AE Leeds in shell cordovan relatively low on the list because shell cordovan is NOT going to take a high shine-and if you Kiwi'ed shell cordovan the ghosts of thousand angry cordwainers will haunt you forever. You would be relying on the natural gloss of this special horsehide material. For uniform purposes, the good thing is that the shine is deep and consistent throughout the upper, but once scuffed it is difficult to cover up. Then again, so is the Bates. Compare to Alden Plain Toed Blucher below.

*5. Cheaney Deal. $350 *
A poor cousin of the Church's Shannon (Church's owns the Cheaney brand)? If so, good. This calfskin shoe is less hefty than the Shannon and much cheaper-and closer to the Bates standard. It has the same drawbacks as any English shoe in terms of unfamiliar sizing and fitting, and it has to be ordered online. It does come stock with a Danite sole, which many find more versatile. It ranks low because other candidates at similar price are more readily available and, like a lot of Cheaney models, there isn't anything special about it.

*4. Alden Plain Toed Blucher (Shell). $600*
All the benefits and drawbacks of the Allen Edmonds Leeds in shell are to be found in the Alden Plain Toed Blucher, which also costs more and is prone to shortages and backorders. The stitching on the throat also departs from the Bates standard more than its chief competitor. It ranks higher on this list, however, because of the color and gloss quality of Alden's shell cordovan. Yes, we all know that both Alden and AE get their shell from the same tannery, but venture forth and see for yourself. The Alden looks wetter and glossier than the AE, and thus it can pass more readily for a high shine. Also, shell cordovan is what Alden _does_, and nobody does it quite like they do.

Now, the top choices. Sound ruffles and flourishes . . . .

*3. Allen Edmonds Leeds (Calfskin). $335*
A very close match with the Bates standard, this classic Allen Edmonds derby looks like it came straight out of the uniform shop. The price point is a reflection of the quality you are buying, and if the shoe fits it will be a favorite for a long, long time. The medium is a narrower medium, but like all AE's, your options will be readily available. It is fine calfskin, and you might wince at killing it with Kiwi wax, but it isn't _that_ expensive and it shines up beautifully. Like many AE shoes, this one may be a bit longer and more elegant than some prefer in a uniform shoe, but, make no mistake, it is more Admiral Peary than Perry Ellis any day of the week.

*2. Loake 771B $185*

An English shoe on the very short list for American servicemembers? Absolutely. The old 771 Bravo is the least expensive option, even ordering online exclusively in the States, and it comes very close to the Bates standard. Because it is corrected grain it comes out of the box glossy, and the leather isn't so good that you will hate yourself for abusing it with a Kiwi spit shine. Having emphasized the pain in the behind factor of translating sizes, the fact that the English medium is an American D+ or E- makes this is a great shoe for a wider medium. Bigger and blockier than the Leeds, it is not as heavy as the Leeds or, by any stretch, its English brethren on this list. You will not have to work your hip flexors to move about in it, as you would with the Church's Shannon or the Tricker's Robert. Several English online retailers will have it to your door within days.

*1. Florsheim Imperial Kenmoor Plain Toe. $225*

Perhaps the only occasion in which a shoe made by a venerable American manufacturer who sold out and went overseas comes in at #1, but it is what it is: a darn close match to the Bates standard and one readily available in the United States in a wide variety of sizes and fittings. Corrected grain and glossy, it can handle the spit and the polish. If you are shopping for fine men's shoes, you normally WILL go wrong with Florsheim these days, but if you are shopping for a solid service uniform shoe that will last a long time, feel better on your feet than what you are wearing now, and take a polish-and that you can try on in a store at the mall, you can't go wrong with this one.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

Oh, but there's something about Corfams, shoes that are cold in the winter and hot in the summer.

Thanks for the compilation. Though I do wonder how such non-conformity will be embraced by the O-6+'s, who can be very biased for polyester Class A's and Corfams.


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## Semper Jeep (Oct 11, 2011)

When I was in the Marines I never realized that there were alternatives to the God awful Corfams, however I only ever wore mine a few times a year so never really cared about it that much. Then towards the end of my service I spent a few months shuffling between Quantico and 8th & I and saw many of my fellow Marines, who had to wear Service Alphas or Charlies nearly everyday wearing all sorts of much nicer and more comfortable looking uniform shoes. I remember asking somebody about them and being told if they had to wear the Corfams every day for a few years, they'd probably need to cut off their feet because of the pain. The Dehner Chukka seemed to be the most popular choice and this was up and down the ranks, officer and enlisted.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

Semper Jeep said:


> When I was in the Marines I never realized that there were alternatives to the God awful Corfams.


That's why I decided to post this. The Corfam is just an awful shoe, and I don't mean awful in an "Ask Andy" way, either. I mean it is awful--awfully made, wears awfully, unmaintainable--Bates gets away with it because they know they can. It is what the uniform shop carries, and since, as we know from "Ask Andy," most men don't know much about shoes, it never occurs to guys that that stupid Bates shoe is actually just a style of shoe that many good shoemakers also produce. In England it's a plain Gibson derby, and in America it is a plain toed oxford or Blucher (terms Americans don't usually distinguish).

And as seldom as servicemembers may wear the dress/service shoe, many would buy a better one nonetheless if they knew what their choices were. If we may confess (and as the PX attests), the military is a festival of male vanity rivaled only perhaps by this forum, but it is a vanity that occults itself in rituals of preparation and obsessive maintenance. The Corfam is the one uniform item that glaringly excludes itself from these rituals. Nothing to straighten out, nothing to delint, nothing to set up, shave, comb, shine, measure, or polish. Part of having the old "inspection boots" (in the days of black boots) was polishing them during downtime and just admiring them. I think people would do the same with a good pair of black oxfords.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

By the way, the *Carmina 531 B* would also pass muster, but I did not included it on this list because I have never actually worn or handled the shoe or attempted to acquire it.

If anyone sees any models online that look like they have potential, let me know and I will track them down and give them a look over.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Being in Engineering on ships I'd throw you out and tell you to come back when you had decent shoes on your feet if your wore Bates corfram shoes. The last thing I wanted was your shoes melting in the event of a fire. Same when I was Fire Marshall. 

I just checked the Military Exchange and they do not carry AE Leeds in stock. However you can special order them through the military exchange at a discount. If your active duty or retired you can go through the special order program and get some REALLY good deals on AE shoes, so I put AE as #1 on my list. Still not sure why I purchased a pair of black Leeds when I retired, probably because I felt I had to LOL, seldom wear them. But wear my Shell burgundy Leeds often. But no longer muster in formation...


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

*police need a good shoe too!*

Don't forget us in law enforcement! Leeds is my choice for dress uniform wear.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

The security guards where I work wear New Balance 927s (with their charcoal grey suits, white broadcloth shirts, and red patterned ties). While not dress shoes, they are black, and no one seems to notice.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

The US Military went to **** the minute they started issuing those shoes.

And the 9mm!!


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> The US Military went to **** the minute they started issuing those shoes.


I believe they're still optional purchase? And they still issue the leather low quarters?


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

I have seen some friends in law enforcement wear the New Balance black shoe, but there is no way it works with a military service uniform!

For those who voted on the Leeds, I do think it is the second best value for the money on this list. I think the the Dehner classic chukka is the best value.

But as PrB points confirms, you have to be careful how much you are willing to stand out.

Another good uniform chukka is the Church's Rider, which also comes with a Danite sole.

I believe PrB is also correct that the leather low quarters (Bates leather) is still issued, but I was never issued my service uniforms but had to purchase them from the get go--twenty years ago--and, like everyone else, I bought the Corfams.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

If anyone on this thread is a size 9 or 9.5 and has a wider foot, I just happened to see a pair of Tricker's Roberts in BLACK for sale on eBay--from the Tricker's factory shop. Link is below. To order that shoe new from Tricker's would cost about 7 bills.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Going to link some of my military friends to this. I had no idea there were more options in service footwear and they probably don't either.



WouldaShoulda said:


> The US Military went to **** the minute they started issuing those shoes.
> 
> And the 9mm!!


You forgot polyester uniforms.

Ditto on the second. I can't understand why they would approve a pistol with little to no stopping power, which is essential on the battlefield. I've heard of some guys still using the M1911A1 if they can.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Ditto on the second. I can't understand why they would approve a pistol with little to no stopping power, which is essential on the battlefield. I've heard of some guys still using the M1911A1 if they can.


Check out Chuck Hawks' https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
"Stopping power" depends on the load. Chances for a one-shot stop varies from 63% to 94% for the .45ACP, and from 81% to 94% for the 9mmx19.


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## Yodan731 (Jan 23, 2011)

Pistols aren't Commonly issued anymore. Replaced by the M4.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

LOL. Indeed the hatred for the dreaded corfram Bates Floataways seems almost universal. For the initial four years of my service, I wore the issued black leather low quarters and boots. In the early 1970's (I think it was) I discovered AE's Leeds and Dehner's Alert Boots (essentially a combat boot with a set of zippers laced into the throat of the boot). While I stuck with the black calf Leeds throughout my remaining tenue in uniform, at some point I began wearing Dehner Wellingtons with my Class A's (I think it was shortly after pinning on my gold oakleaves) in 1981. At this point the black calf Leeds and the Dehner alert boots are gone, the Wellingtons are still in the closet and do see occassional wear (with a suit, no less:devil!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

My Cav riding boots are in my closet now too tight to enjoy.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Pr B said:


> Check out Chuck Hawks' https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
> "Stopping power" depends on the load. Chances for a one-shot stop varies from 63% to 94% for the .45ACP, and from 81% to 94% for the 9mmx19.


To Hell with theory!!

I still prefer making a bigger hole than a smaller one!!


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> To Hell with theory!!
> 
> I still prefer making a bigger hole than a smaller one!!


Concur. By the same account, shooting a .45-70 Govt is a lot of fun. Still, I'll take a .30-06 Spfd or a 7.62x51mm NATO for the longer range, significantly flatter trajectory, and lighter, smaller, and cheaper ammunition. Just as while I love my waxed-cotton Barbours and commando-soled bluchers, I'm not going to wear them for a three-day hike in the woods.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> LOL. Indeed the hatred for the dreaded corfram Bates Floataways seems almost universal. For the initial four years of my service, I wore the issued black leather low quarters and boots. In the early 1970's (I think it was) I discovered AE's Leeds and Dehner's Alert Boots (essentially a combat boot with a set of zippers laced into the throat of the boot). While I stuck with the black calf Leeds throughout my remaining tenue in uniform, at some point I began wearing Dehner Wellingtons with my Class A's (I think it was shortly after pinning on my gold oakleaves) in 1981. At this point the black calf Leeds and the Dehner alert boots are gone, the Wellingtons are still in the closet and do see occassional wear (with a suit, no less:devil!


I can speak only for the Air Force. In the '70s and '80s, Wellingtons were very popular. I don't know why, your trousers always hung up on them. But when rumor of the IG coming was bandied about, everyone put their Wellingtons in the truck of the POV and wore their Corfams. When the IG did land, often they were wearing Wellingtons!


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Pr B said:


> Concur. By the same account, shooting a .45-70 Govt is a lot of fun. Still, I'll take a .30-06 Spfd or a 7.62x51mm NATO for the longer range, significantly flatter trajectory, and lighter, smaller, and cheaper ammunition.


.338 Lapua.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

F'ing hilarious. I've noticed whenever I've been to the Building (or, "Pentagon", if you prefer), that quite a few officers are wearing AE Leeds. Usually calf, not cordovan.


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## helo-flyer (Nov 22, 2008)

Angeland said:


> So you are tired of walking around in the Bates plastic nightmare, streaked indelibly by the wheels of your desk chair and the rigors of merely walking to the head and back? Or maybe the weird foam mush heel has disintegrated on you . . . again? Or, wait? You can't understand why you have one pair of lousy plastic shoes just for wearing around on any old Friday and another pair of lousy plastic shoes tucked away for "special" occasions (check the sole-it's probably dry rotted). Or maybe your feet just stink? Or maybe you just woke up one day and said, "People! Look at yourselves! You are all walking around in cheap plastic shoes!" Whatever the reason, your reason is good.


Why does one wear corframs on a daily basis anyway? Where I come from they are only to be worn for rainy days and parades. Alas, they don't make plastic brown shoes so I guess all my colleagues and I are safe for, you know, the one day a year when we're not in flight boots


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## helo-flyer (Nov 22, 2008)

To be clear, on the off occasion where I wear SDBs, I still have my inspection leathers from the Academy at a high shine despite no polish in well over 5 years


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## Deep Classic (Apr 23, 2011)

*Any suggestions for white shoes?*

Great post! I, too, detest Bates in all their awful forms and searched for some time to find an appropriate alternative. I have been wearing the Loakes for the past few years and they are massive improvements over the Bates at a competitive price. I am proud, comfortable, and sharp wearing these shoes.

Have been looking for an equivalent shoe in white for summer whites, etc. with no success. Any suggestions?


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Don't have the exact pricing on Leeds but based on recent pricing through the military exchange AE calfs are running $200-$250 and shell ~$400. If the exchange doesn't carry the AE shoe that you want you have to go through the special order program but it is worth it. For active duty or retired military the deal of the year is the AE Limited Edition Walnut Cordovan Dalton boot. Retail is $675 but I was quoted $289 through the SO program. Love them.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Deep Classic said:


> Have been looking for an equivalent shoe in white for summer whites, etc. with no success. Any suggestions?


...and that is why I didn't join the Navy!!


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

On this list, the Tricker's Robert can be made in white, but I believe Allen Edmonds will make shoes to order.


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## Deep Classic (Apr 23, 2011)

Angeland said:


> On this list, the Tricker's Robert can be made in white, but I believe Allen Edmonds will make shoes to order.


Great. Thanks for the assistance.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

I just saw that Frye has introduced the James Oxford, made in America for $228. Looks like a great uniform shoe!


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## helo-flyer (Nov 22, 2008)

As the rubber soles on brown bates leathers crumbles, I was looking to upgrade, but all the options seemed to offer only black or burgundy, but no brown. Anyone aware of a decent brown option?


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## jc1305us (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm an LEO and I swear by Thorogood boots. Made in the USA, and they are the best boots I've ever purchased. Not too much more than a pair of (crappy) Bates. I hear Danner makes a great boot as well, but they are a bit more $$.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

helo-flyer said:


> As the rubber soles on brown bates leathers crumbles, I was looking to upgrade, but all the options seemed to offer only black or burgundy, but no brown. Anyone aware of a decent brown option?


Well if you HAVE to wear brown shoes in the military :tongue2: Allen Edmonds made a test run of brown Leeds for the Naval Aviation community a few years back. And AE used to offer the Leeds in brown till 5 or 6 years ago. You can take the CEO of AE up on his offer to AAAC and SF members and email him to get the custom charges waived and have a pair for ~$350 I would think. After contacting him you will likely work with either Allison or Deborah, both who can pull up the specs of the matching brown Leeds for Airdales. Good luck! And keep your head on a swivel.....


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^+1.
AE Leeds in black calf were my 'go to' low quarter shoes during my time with the USAF. The Leeds are such an improvement over anything Bates offers for sale. At one point I tried wearing spit shined black shell cordovan Leeds, but LOL, that did not go well, over the long term!


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

jc1305us said:


> I'm an LEO and I swear by Thorogood boots. Made in the USA, and they are the best boots I've ever purchased. Not too much more than a pair of (crappy) Bates. I hear Danner makes a great boot as well, but they are a bit more $$.


I am one of the Danner true believers on this forum. My experience is entirely with their outdoor and especially mountain boots, including those sourced abroad. In ten seasons as a volunteer ski ranger and in other mountain/desert/outdoor adventures, Danner boots have never failed me. You are, however, right about the cost.


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## helo-flyer (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for the tip. I shot him a message asking about the custom option. Worst case scenario, Lands End carries a Brown Leeds but with no option on width.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^+1.
> AE Leeds in black calf were my 'go to' low quarter shoes during my time with the USAF. The Leeds are such an improvement over anything Bates offers for sale. At one point I tried wearing spit shined black shell cordovan Leeds, but LOL, that did not go well, over the long term!


What, specifically, was the drawback with the Cordovan?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Contrary to what some might think, it is possible to achieve a spit shine on shell cordovan, but it takes a whole lot of time and more elbow grease than putting the same shine on a pair of calf hide shoes. The additional oils impregnating the shell cordovan will initially mightily resist the evolution of a spit shine and it seemed to me to actually sabotage the durability of said shine once it was achieved. Repeated efforts necessary to restore the shine become increasingly counter-productive (as the polish further builds up on the shoes surface and will eventually destroy those beautiful shell cordovan shoes, before their time! I have included black shell cordovan shoes in my rotation for many, many years and have consistently maintained a soft shine on them that is Oh-so-handsome, but have found calf hide black Bluchers (AE Leeds) tto be much better suited for the mirror shines I kept on my uniform shoes.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks for the quick response. I just purchased the cordovan Leeds in the hopes that it will work as a bridge shoe--one that will look fine in uniform one month a year but won't look bad in civilian clothes, either. I'm hoping that the beauty of the cordovan will offset the clunky military appearance in civilian attire and that its shine will suffice for daily office wear in uniform. I don't need a black PTB for civilian wear, but I'd also like to work them into my rotation if they look nice; spit shined calf can only be worn in uniform, IMO.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^You are quite welcome. Having spent close to 31 years in uniform, I am firmly convinced that black shell PTB's, such as the AE Leeds, when properly maintained with the "Mac method," will pass muster. Just don't try to spit shine them. Once the polish builds up, you have a real mess on your hands. May you long wear those Leeds and may you do so only in good health!


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## Poor Fit (Apr 8, 2008)

AGree that Bates are bad all the way around. I have the Corfams and the leather version. Thankfully, I never have to wear them, sticking to BDUs and comfortable boots. I will have to check out the other options though for the few times my Reserve unit requires a dress uniform. Thanks for the post.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

Any opinions on the AE Dundees as a chukka substitute for Bates low quarters? I have some shell Leeds but am thinking about returning them for MTO Dundees in calf.


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## cugeno (May 11, 2017)

I realize that I am resurrecting a long-since-deceased post, here, but I wanted to add another option for both white (!) and black uniform derbies. Just, you know, in case anyone else is looking.

My home of record is in Maine, so I am familiar with the sad decline of the shoe industry in New England. The original founders of Rancourt & Co. shoemakers purchased their former company back as it was about to be closed by its parent corporation in 2008/09, and the Rancourts are once again handcrafting beautiful shoes, boots, and sneakers in Lewiston, ME.

Their Greenwood Blucher in calf is a great option for a military dress shoe, available in black (AND, they have just informed me, in white for the Sea Service bubbas), handmade in New England for 375 USD. Note that this is the posted normal price for black, brown, etc. I am still waiting for a confirmation email from Customer Service to determine the cost of the white calf with a white Vibram 1007 sole -- if it is anywhere close to 375 USD, then I am bloody well pulling the trigger on it. I refuse to entertain the idea of wearing Bates in Service Dress White, and I am eager to support small business in Maine, as well.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

WouldaShoulda said:


> The US Military went to **** the minute they started issuing those shoes.
> 
> And the 9mm!!


I prefer the Magnums to the 9MM's myself. When you know how to use them properly, the Magnums give good control where you always hit what you aim for (and they can remove the fingerprints to boot).

The only problems with these guns is that they're difficult to conceal and handle because of how heavy and powerful they are (the holsters have to be custom made and are crazy pricey as a result) and Magnums themselves are crazy expensive.

All of the above applies to the .44 more than the .357 and the .500 more than the .44.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Pr B said:


> Check out Chuck Hawks' https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
> "Stopping power" depends on the load. Chances for a one-shot stop varies from 63% to 94% for the .45ACP, and from 81% to 94% for the 9mmx19.


This is a topic I know a little something about. The figures Chuck Hawks gives are taken from statistical compilations based on thousands of shootings amassed by a police officer named Evan Marshall. I published his findings in Handguns magazine back in the 1980s and '90s when I edited that publication. Marshall and his collaborator Ed Sanow wrote three books, all published by Paladin Press, on these topics in 1992, 1996 and 2001. The bottom line is, that with military style ball ammunition there is no practical difference between the .45 ACP and the 9mmP. With a database of 575 shootings with three different varieties of commercial .45 hardball, Marshall found that all three loads logged 62% one-shot stops. Winchester 9mm 115-grain FMJ ball loads, in the course of 315 shootings, produced 70% one-shot stops. I found this somewhat surprising since in his earlier compilations Marshall had found 9mm and .45 ball in a dead heat. There were also the Strasbourg Goat Tests in the early '90s that involved shooting over 500 French alpine billy goat in the rib cage and timing how quickly it took them to collapse. Here .45 ball outperformed the 9mm by a trifling margin--13.85 seconds to 14.40 seconds. By way of contrast with MagSafe frangible bullets the average incapacitation time was 4.68 seconds for the .45, 4.74 for the 9mm. With conventional hollowpoints the incapacitation times ranged between 8.9 and 9.9 seconds for the 9mm, 7.98 to 9.24 for the .45. I gather that the FBI is abandoning the .40 S&W for the 9mm, if that's significant. I understand the Marines are jettisoning the Colt .45s used by special units in favor of the Glock 19. When I was editing Gun World, I ran a series of of articles on various elite counter-terror units in various countries written by an Israel counter-terror expert. As I recall, every last one of them used a 9mm pistol. Draw your own conclusions.

Actually, I much prefer the .45 ACP to the 9mm but for reasons other that the "stopping power" myth, mostly because it's a much easier cartridge to handload good ammunition for.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

cugeno said:


> Rancourt & Co. shoemakers... Their Greenwood Blucher in calf is a great option for a military dress shoe, available in black (AND, they have just informed me, in white for the Sea Service bubbas), handmade in New England for 375 USD.


Looks like it's being discontinued. Their Sanford looks like a very good alternative (although it's constructed differently).

Horror of horrors, AE stopped making a calfskin Leeds--just when I need a pair for a daily rotation with my cordovan Leeds. There's no way I'm buying a second pair of black cordovan Bluchers.

I had planned on getting black Dundee chukkas as my other shoe, but there's a subtle, nonsensical change to the latest Army uniform regs:
OLD: "As an option, males may wear an ankle-high boot, similar to a jodhpur or chukka (riding) boot."
NEW: "As an option, _*commanders may authorize males to *_wear an ankle-high boot, similar to a jodhpurs (riding) or riding boot." [Note the deliberate omission of chukka].

It's nonsensical because the next line in both versions stipulates that the boot cannot have straps or buckles, which leaves you with a chukka. It's unlikely that I'll ever have to worry about someone telling me that I need to have my footwear authorized--but clearly someone had a pet peeve about chukkas.

Can anyone offer advice based on recent experience and observations?
Does anyone care to update the OP's top 10 list based on the same and current availability?


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

Crickets. Not surprising given the narrowness of the question. Let's try this...

Plenty of testimony elsewhere in the forums re: the various brands of the Herring group.
With Leeds off the table, I'm trying to decide between the Herring Lakenheath (made in Spain, $211) and the Barker Nairn (made in UK, Dainite sole, $303).

I would just buy the Lakenheaths, as the last is wide (like my foot) and the price is right. Unfortunately, my size is out of stock until OCT. My concern about the Nairn, on the Barker 29 last, is that the only testimony about it I've read was from someone who loves it because it works with his very flat feet, and I have very high arches. Is anyone else familiar with this last or these particular shoes?


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## winghus (Dec 18, 2014)

WICaniac said:


> Looks like it's being discontinued. Their Sanford looks like a very good alternative (although it's constructed differently).
> 
> Horror of horrors, AE stopped making a calfskin Leeds--just when I need a pair for a daily rotation with my cordovan Leeds. There's no way I'm buying a second pair of black cordovan Bluchers.
> 
> ...


You could try a George boot which is essentially a chukka with a higher shaft.


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## mreams99 (Jan 7, 2015)

The calfskin Allen Edmonds Leeds is back in production. I did not see black listed as an option though. If that is what you want, I'd suggest calling a good Allen Edmonds sales associate and asking them to have a pair made in black for you.
Or you could wait until they introduce black as a standard option again. I can't imagine that they wouldn't bring it back in black too.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
LOL, had it not been for a sequential series of AE Black calfskin Leeds, purchased over a period of three decades, I fear I would have been going barefooted through portions of my military service. The Leeds were such a vast improvement over our issued footwear, going barefoot would have been the only reasonable alternative option! LOL.


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## winghus (Dec 18, 2014)

I just happened to see these browsing the Rider Boot sale listings, most sizes still available. It's a black plain toe derby with Blake Rapid construction. I bought the wife a pair of Rider boots earlier this year and the quality and construction were excellent.
$149.99


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks for the recommendations. Those Riders are very tempting, but I've ordered a Sanders George boot for the sake of variety. As many have commented in other threads, Chris at Herring was immensely helpful. One more for the OP's list: the Cheaney Wye II as a substitute for the "corfram." I would never buy it because they provide a glossy shine out of the box by coating an otherwise well-made, handsome shoe with a thin layer of plastic. But it's clearly an upgrade over Bates.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

Update: Have worn the Sanders George alternating days for the past two weeks. Finish and stitching are what one would expect from a venerable Northampton maker, but the leather is fairly stiff and corrected grain. Easy to shine, hard to break in. Aside from the stitching and laces, the entire boot is leather and brass nails, which makes it nearly impossible to pad silently through the hallways. Still, it's an attractive boot that looks fine in (and I suspect out of) uniform. Thanks, winghus, for the recommendation.


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## mreams99 (Jan 7, 2015)

Update on the Allen Edmonds Leeds: It is now available in black again!


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## Elessarcif (Nov 1, 2017)

Be warned I am a warrant.
So I have been following this forum for awhile but due to there being smarter people in here with better insights I haven't created an account until I saw this thread. 
I am a bit dissapointed that noone has pointed out that none of those shoes are oxfords. DA PAM 670-1 states the shoe must be a black oxford of approved design.
I think we need to get the SMA involved in this. To be totally honest though I have been tempted to pull out some really nice Oxfords that in all other ways look like the Bates. One other thing not shown here are any captoe. If memory serves me correctly my original corfams issued by the army had a captoe but I could be wrong on that.


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## Wawazz (Nov 11, 2013)

An interesting thing to note is that the Bates Oxford is not an Oxford at all, it's a Blucher. Now THAT is certainly something worthy of the SMA's attention.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

I’ve compiled a list of such mistakes but assumed the SMA has better things to worry about—and is better left assuming that I do, too.


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