# Trad v. Preppy



## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

I have read several derogatory posts lately regarding preppy dressing. I am unclear what the difference is between preppy and trad. They are virtually the same to me, at least in the 1980 preppy sense. What the papers and J Crew and stupid kids call preppy now is not preppy at all, it seems. Any opinions on this would be interesting. I know this has been discussed before, but the search was not working for me again.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

Look here.



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God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by kforton_
> 
> I have read several derogatory posts lately regarding preppy dressing. I am unclear what the difference is between preppy and trad. They are virtually the same to me, at least in the 1980 preppy sense. What the papers and J Crew and stupid kids call preppy now is not preppy at all, it seems. Any opinions on this would be interesting. I know this has been discussed before, but the search was not working for me again.


A case study may illuminate the point. My father was not a "preppy." Yes, he attended a private secondary school, a private college, and then enjoyed success as a broker who managed the business he inherited from my grandfather. Yes, he wore Southwick suits from Eljo's and drove a Jeep Grand Wagoneer. Yes, he hunted ducks on the Commonwealth's Eastern Shore and drank Balvenie single malt. Yes, he married the classiest, prettiest Southern Belle around. Yes, he was a bulwark of his community and a clubbable chap. And yes, he wore Alden tassels, Irish Poplins, Brooks button downs, and brown gator belts with a monogrammed engine turn. But he was not a "preppy." What my brother and I learned from him would not appropriately be deemed "preppy"...certainly not in the (as you put it) "1980s sense."

I don't think the "1980s sense preppies" gave much a damn about whether or not a sport coat was fused or darted, so long as they could accessorize with something featuring spouting whales or the color pink. I don't think they could distinguish a Donegal from a Harris, and I don't think they invested much time in worrying about tipped lapels that hid a top third button. I think their sense of tradition was limited to whatever that "handbook" included, which may have been limited to Topsiders and flipped polo shirt collars. I think those "1980s preppies" spiraled downward into Yuppies, but I may stand corrected. If I'm not wrong, then they eventually discarded an Americanized Anglophilia for a flashy Europhilia, entailing BMW's and Armani suits. Nowadays, I reckon their adolescent children wear J. Crew and Gap.

The differences are pronounced, not subtle. Others can elaborate.

Cheers,
Harris


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Kforton, you should definitely download and read that pdf for which Nantucket has provided a link. Neither you nor I were active on the forum when that Trad vs Preppy thread 'happened', and it is essential reading. (If you don't want to download any files, then I will send you the basic text in an e-mail.) To my mind the basic question the thread posed has not been entirely resolved: is Trad another word for Preppy?

When I'm sitting in the dark late at night, drinking and watching DVDs of long-forgotten BBC series, I sometimes think that "Trad" is a phrase that Harris invented just so he (and we) could avoid being labelled "preppy".

When you say _"what the papers and J Crew and stupid kids call preppy now is not preppy at all, it seems"_, you are quite correct. The word "preppy", from circa 1980 and beyond, has become mostly just another word for "yuppie poseur", not Trad. It's been appropriated by the ignorant. Maybe this is a good thing: let the punters steal the word if they like -- it never applied to people like O'Hara and Archibald Cox, and probably doesn't apply to any AAAC Trads.

Some visuals...this is Trad:

...this is 1980s preppy:

...and apparently these days hip-hop is "preppy":

I'd say the divergence between Trad and Preppy is complete and irreversible; I don't think there will be any convergence in the future. We might do better to rediscover the Ivy League roots of Trad, and move the concept forward from there -- a bit of backtracking, initially, but probably worth the effort.

DD


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

Trad is a timeless style. Preppy is a fashion phase that was highly influenced by trad.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
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Harris, Good to have you back. Can you really tell the diff in the 2 tweeds with a quick glance? I am nowhere close to that. I would have to open the coat and read the label.
Here is the definition I found:
****************************************************
What's the difference between a Donegal tweed and a Harris tweed? 
Tweed is often named for the region or town -- usually in Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain -- where it's manufactured. The real-deal tweeds will carry a special label that authenticates their origin.

I "feel the need for tweed" education.

All the best, 
Joe


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## Vladimir Berkov (Apr 19, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Knightly_
> 
> Trad is a timeless style. Preppy is a fashion phase that was highly influenced by trad.


I would say that trad is a university style from the 1950s and preppy is a mass-market style from the 1980s trying to look like a university style from the 1950s.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I first heard the word "trad" way, way back in the 80s. At Eljo's. I can't claim to have "invented" the word; it's been around for a while. -Harris


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

"Trad" = everything I used to consider "preppy" until I came to AAAC

Yes, "preppy" as a word is worn-out and over-done. It has too many different meanings to too many people. "Trad" is more concise. 
But, where people lose me is when they try to define "trad" as the more grown-up version of "preppy".....O.K. If that's the case, then what are patch madras trousers? pink shetland sweaters? kelly green cords? grosgrain belts? trad? preppy? who the hell knows??


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## jlmwrite (Dec 27, 2005)

There's a huge misunderstanding of preppy-ness.

The first recorded use of prep goes back to to 1899, and was used to describe a student or graduate of a preparatory school. (Source: Weekley's "An Etymological Dictionary of Modern English")

It wasn't until the early '50s that the term preppy truly came into vogue. Erich Segal used the word liberally in his fiction based loosely on his days at Harvard, first in his book "Love Story" (1970) as a mildly derogotary but loving term, and later in "The Class".

Thru the '50s and '60s, preppy fashions (a term I use with tongue in cheek) was largely confined to those who had attended preparatory school, then went on to Ivy League colleges. These were kids who grew up in Topsiders, rumpled khakis, and shapeless tweed jackets, mostly from the "up the coast".

Lisa Birnbach took a good-humored poke at the prep world in 1980 with her "The Preppy Handbook". The California Valley Girl phenomenom loosely adopted the colors and styles of preppy casual wear, and from there grew the yuppie styles and excesses glorifed in "Wall Street".

And THERE is the problem -- the masses associated preppy with yuppie, and that idea still permeates even some of the learned members of this great forum.

So why does this persist?

Simply because we preppies just don't care. We grew up wearing Topsiders because they didn't slip on the deck of our Hobies. We wear boxers from J. Press or Brooks because our dads wore them, as did all of our friends. We Rene Lacoste's cotton polo shirts with the collars turned up, or underneath BB buttondowns. Sometimes we wore two contrasting colored Lacoste shirts just because.

When I was a kid, we lived on the lake, had an old Volvo station wagon with our retriever's hair all over the seats, and knew in kindergarten where I would attend prep school. I have a pair of Bluchers older than my adult daughter. I have a Harris tweed coat with leather buttons that my youngest son will likely wear to college. When I go to work, I wear highly polished, black, close-soled oxfords or tasseled slipons. I usually wear contacts, but still have a pair of round tortiseshell frame glasses. I can tie a 4-in-hand knot in my sleep, and could care less that most of my furniture is older than me.

No braces with dollar signs printed on them, no slicked back hair, no sunglasses on a string. In short, preppy is very, very different from yuppy!

So... Now that I've rambled far too long about preps, how DOES preppy differ from Trad?

I believe I've said it before, and others here have admirably demonstrated that preppy is a subset of Trad. Trad is classic all the way. However, I don't know that the truly Trad would be caught dead in a pair of blue trousers with a whale pattern, Weejuns worn innocent of sock, and a madras sportsjacket to a picnic!

Is that clear, or have I had a bit too much Sam Smith's Winter Ale? And yeh -- I guess I do care a bit now...


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## tmlewis (Aug 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jlmwrite_
> 
> However, I don't know that the truly Trad would be caught dead in a pair of blue trousers with a whale pattern, Weejuns worn innocent of sock, and a madras sportsjacket to a picnic!


Huh? I'm sorry but the syntax of this sentence confuses me


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

I hope I don't offend, but surely no gentlemen here strives to look like this.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

"A fun-loving, party-hopping smile . . ." Those types have always irked me.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> The differences are pronounced, not subtle. Others can elaborate.


Harris, I remember as a kid shopping with my mom and the discussion about which colors of Lacoste I was allowed. The was when they sized their garments "patron" "grand patron" etc. Remember? Anyway, I was allowed navy or white. White I could wear on the courts, navy to a picnic, and either only in summer. Yes there was a time knit polos were deemed summer as madras. 
Cheers


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

Two things:

The collars on Lacoste polos don't pop very well. Ralph's are much stiffer, if that's the look you're going for.

Telling the difference between a Harris tweed and a Donegal is easy if you're shown two jackets and those are your only options. Donegal is the one with a flecked pattern. There is also no "Donegal" label that would correspond to a "Harris" label.


Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> I hope I don't offend, but surely no gentlemen here strives to look like this.


What's wrong with this look?....... 
It's virtually flawless.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by sunnisalafi_
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Not flawless...he is missing a baseball cap.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
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What? Do you mean to tell me that people wear them in any other season??

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Not so long ago I dared to guess that trad entailed bold--even pastel--colors. A chum who has enough spare money and time to care and talk about such matters set me straight, admonishing for guessing wrong. He's 35 going on 80--wears three piece sacks every day and still uses a wooden tennis racquet. Very old fashioned. So it makes sense that he told me I was confusing the more "adolescent" look (for which "preppy" is known) with hardcore Dean Acheson style trad.
> 
> ...


Well, being no fan of George Will, maybe I'll side with the preppies then. I find both the trad and preppy attitudes laughable myself, having grown up blue-collar. I just like the classic stylings and the wild colors. Then again, I don't strictly adhere to either of these camps.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> I hope I don't offend, but surely no gentlemen here strives to look like this.


I strongly disagree about the picture GHWB. Inded, that's precisely what I strive for! That's exactly how I was dressed for the intramural Mock Trial competition, Moot Court and exactly how I hope to appear at work.

As for the preppy-trad-yuppie bit:

I don't think the preppies devolved into yuppies. I think they were gradually outnumbered by yuppies. The 80s is when the trad and preppies were slowly pushed out of the professional spotlight by yuppies. It's when all the things identified as "trad" in taste again and again on this board--old Volvos and Chevrolets like Fussell mentions, Gordon's gin, and simple but potent hard alcohol drinks made from inexpensive alcohol, understated and occasionally decrepit summer houses, frayed oxfords, and charge accounts were shunted aside by new Audis, high end designer clothing, expensive and oddly colored liqueurs and wine, weightlifting instead of squash, 5 platinum credit cards instead of store accounts, and Trump like gaudiness instead of GHW Bushian restriant.

My reading of history is that preppy is a colorful, youthful subset of trad clothing, and that preppy and trad had their last gasp/heyday (until the AAAC revival sweeps the country) cerca 1981-1983 right around when I was born and folks like Patrick and rojo were in college. I think this last gasp was aided by a backlash against the 70s and a desire to return to the simpler more tasteful clothing of the Kennedy era, helped along by the high tide of Reaganism, the preppy handbook, and the tennis boom of the era. But this was also the era when mass numbers of people made the leap into white collar positions and blue collar industries really began to hit bottom. I gather that the white collar world became vastly more competitive, and diverse, between 1975-1985, and the trad/prep culture that reigned there was therefore, naturally, ultimately doomed to marginalization. It was basically a one-two punch...the ugly clothing revolution of the late 60s and 70s followed by the yuppie revolution of the mid 1980s.

I would be tempted to agree with a book I received last Christmas from a buddy at Yale called Tipsy In Madras (a companion drinking book to the OPH, really) that suggests that "sure you know relatively 'preppy' people, but preppies, as a class, became extinct about 20 years ago" (Perigree Books, 2004: xii). Like that book suggests, they either blended in with the yuppies (if you cant beat em, join em) and the Michael Milken-"Gordon Gekko" orgy, or they disappeared off the radar into little places like Fenwick and Stonington. It fits right in with the changes at Brooks Brothers, the Japanese takeover of J. Press, the closing of the Lake Placid Club, all of that stuff.

So, to sum up, when I think trad, I say: trad is the standard, American/J.Press look, I think adding the madras jackets, or oxford pants is the preppy look...a "fun" trad, and then the yuppies cross over into the preppy look whenever it's "in fashion" which means they buy lots of Polo stuff, regardless of the number of ponies on it, and the number of flipped up collars quadruples overnight.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Knightly_
> 
> Two things:
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I have been lucky enough to inherit a few of my dad's unspoled Made In USA Izod-Lacoste's (the Pre- "Designed in France $75" era) and they flag just as Ralph's do today. Things have changed since the 80s in that respect.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by kforton_
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Well, then. That's that.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by sunnisalafi_
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I would have to agree. It does not get much better than this.


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## gordgekko (Nov 12, 2004)

I'm not even a Trad and I think GHWB looks great in that picture. Well, except for the fact he needs to show some cuff.


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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gordgekko_
> 
> I'm not even a Trad and I think GHWB looks great in that picture. Well, except for the fact he needs to show some cuff.
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I grew up trad and have since gotten in touch with my inner dandy. I'd feel naked without a pocket square and I certainly agree about the cuffs. But I must agree with the other posters that GHWB is a fine exemplar of trad in this picture.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I first heard the word "trad" way, way back in the 80s. At Eljo's. I can't claim to have "invented" the word; it's been around for a while. -Harris


The word Preppy certainly existed before 1980. I recall using and hearing it in high school(upper socio-economic public)
80's Preppy was indeed a fashion trend that became a little overwrought. The over dependence on pastels, logos, flipped collars, and cliche in general became rather nauseating after awhile. But at least it signaled the end of that decade in the wilderness, the 70's when you could nary buy a pair of decent khaki shorts most places in America. Some benefitted and likely became trads, others continued being trend whores (Yuppys?) as Harris describes.
(BTW Harris, love my Beamers, the best ever being a 1976 2002. The most pure)
00s Preppy, ie JCrew, and even some of BBs casual wear? Lets just say I select judiciously. Shorts from JCrew, but never those poorly made tweed jackets. BBs tweed jacket selection on the other and, has been impressive of late, as long as you dont mind darts, which I dont. Call me crazy, but I am known to wear Aldens with SR suits. I guess that makes me an apostate in the trad world (and England), though it seems many born and bred trads/preps graduate to "The Row" while still buying staples, odd jackets, trousers, etc at BB.

A pure Trad/"real" preppy, would probably be my parents banker who was boarding/Ivy in the 50s, has the same wardrobe and haircut now as I remember him having in the 60s when I first recall him as a 6-7 year old. (Picture Edward Herman as just about every character he has ever played)

He and my Dad(publc school) both shopped at the short lived Long Island branch of Rogers Peet Co. in gasp!, Smithaven Mall. Truly a temperate zone in hell. These days, they both might hit the BB and Bass outlets at Tanger in Riverhead, but only on a day you can park within a 1/2 mile.

Just my 2 pence


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I'm not even a Republican and I think GHWB looks great in that picture. 

As for the preppy thing, I had always thought of it as a slight tweak to more conventional dress, while still remaining within basic conventions, i.e. the strident green, the surcingle belt, Bermuda shorts w/ tie and blazer. Something in the outfit drawing attention, without being too outrageous. Of course when you have J. Crew defining the parameters the fun is sort of lost.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by gordgekko_
> 
> I'm not even a Trad and I think GHWB looks great in that picture. Well, except for the fact he needs to show some cuff.
> 
> ...


Runs in the family it seems...


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## GreyFlannelMan (Jun 16, 2004)

I agree with the consensus about the picture of GHWB -- he looks excellent. That was a look I tried to copy when I was younger.

This is the power of the Trad!


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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JLPWCXIII - did you not know what all the Trad talk was about? GHWB, as shown in this picture is pure Trad as others have mentioned. If you don't look like this, or strive to look like this, then you are not Trad. Actually there are some of us who like like this without thinking.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

GHWB picture: It is hard to find a pair of soft shoulders anywhere around where I live, and I suspect just about anywhere else either. I assume that this photo is a prime example of soft shoulders.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Speaking of hardcore trad--I just received the Cable Care SALE! flier. Some good stuff. You can get a vested Donegal Tweed sack for $1,200, which ain't bad at all:


Cheers,
Harris


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## tomby (Nov 1, 2004)

Not to offend anyone's sense of passion here, but I find this whole dialectic sort of silly.

I looked at Nantucket Red's post the other day -- 'You're trad if..." and started chuckling when I realized that I could answer "yes" to virtually all the questions. If we throw my wife's "two-of-'em-on-the-Mayflower" ancestry in, I'd likely run the table. Yet I'd never consider myself trad OR preppy.

Maybe it was school in Spain or the years in France afterward, but the idea of an intelligent man willingly wearing a wool bag with arms attached and calling it a proper "suit" is beyond me these days.

Is having classic clothes that actually fit, age well, and carry appeal beyond a certain socioeconomic class-based subculture to be dismissed as "Europhilla?" I think not ...and to do so reeks of the dark side of Trad that Trip Bradford once banged on so loudly in these pages 

That's not to say I don't understand the aesthetic or appreciate it when properly executed, but this is usually limited to a very narrow corridor of geography along the Eastern seaboard...and typically by people who simply don't know -- and don't want to know -- any differently. That's not bad, not good...it simply is what it is.

That said, I think that Trad, Prep, BCBG, or whatever you choose to label that certain set of satorial semiotics under discussion here can't be bought at Brooks, Andover, Ben Silver, Alden, or anywhere else. It can be only lived.

Again, just my perspective. Maybe it's because I am back in Boston right now dividing up antiques after a death in the family and encountering too many people named "Chip" or "Happy" than is good for anyone's pysche. I trust that you'll pardon the rant.

Cheers!
Tomby


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> "Hard core" Trad is simply called "young fogeyism" (for certain age groups) that's the 1830-2006 paradigm.


Are you referring specifically to the Young Fogeys in England in the 1980s? I believe Charles Moore had something to do with them. I always wondered where the Young Fogeys, Sloane Rangers, Trads, and Preppies overlapped.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> "Hard core" Trad is simply called "young fogeyism" (for certain age groups) that's the fashion 1830s-2006 paradigm. Trads who are only in the 1950s-2006 paradigm are not the hard corps : they are merely deluding themselves. Hard corp Trad is a rebel movement.


Is this an example of Trolling?


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
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I own a pair of Polo Ralph Lauren University very fine wool trousers that I could easily have worn in the 19th century no problem . I have a pair of Bernard Zins pants (cashmere and wool) made in Paris France that could do the very same exact thing. Also a pair Harris Tweed pants (with small flecks of color) from Banana Republic that just looks timeless .... My tweed sports jacket could go back very far as well even though it's not from that time period so on and so forth ... yada yada yada ... blah blah blah .... etc... etc..

Kkakis are another story altoghether for some reason I find it hard to get fairly timeless cotton khakis so I settle for somewhat contemporary in cut.

No it's not trolling it's a legitimate style and fact. You can purchase new clothes from modern retailers that you could wear in the 1800s, 1900s or 2006 and still look fine, normal and wise. How the hell is that trolling ? Some clothes are just basically timeless and others are not. Some clothes look bound to certain time periods like the 80s, 50s, 60s, 70s etc.. Deciding to wear timeless clothing is a legitimate choice and it's called Trad or young fogeyism.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tomby_
> 
> Not to offend anyone's sense of passion here, but I find this whole dialectic sort of silly.
> 
> ...


"Maybe it was school in Spain or the years in France afterward..."--Tomby

Tomby, this confession of yours almost immediately takes you out of the running for anything resembling trad.

You should be very pleased. Reason for celebration, eh?

Cheers,
Harris


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Showing no shirt sleeve cuff is fine, I posit, for Trads. Oxford button downs are often worn with slightly shorter sleeves than posher shirts, not to mention that their inherent longevity implies some shirt sleeve shrinkage over time. Trad is partly about not attracting attention; carefully sited white cuffs can grab the eye.

DD


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> Deciding to wear timeless clothing is a legitimate choice and it's called Trad or young fogeyism.


I have no argument with many of your assertions. However, it may be helpful to know that "Trad" as used on this board represents a very narrowly defined style. Since "Trad" doen't seem to be a real word with any sort of definition in the dictionary (except relating to Jazz), it isn't suprising that it may mean different things to different people.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

You can't aspire to be Trad. You are Trad or you aren't. You can aspire to 'look like' a Trad, but that's silly. It makes sense to wear any clothing that you think suits your taste. But to develop a wardrobe in an effort to fit into some particular "lifestyle" image is warped. If you grew up working class in Williamsburg and went to City College, but you want people to look at your haircut, glasses, suit and briefcase and THINK that you grew up in Connecticut and went to Yale, you should save the money you would have spent on your 'disguise' and spend it on a really, really good therapist instead.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

That suit does look bad on GHWB - six inch gap showing between the belt and button doesn't help (it looks like his pants are falling down), nor does the fact that it looks like he's wearing a size 46 on size 42 frame - from the look of his right sleeve, you'd think he was a body builder. There are better photo example of Trad, I suspect.

Interesting that GHWB doesn't dress that way now. In fact, I don't think he did when he was Pres. or V.P. I don't recall him wearing a sack suit in the last quarter of a century (could be wrong - but I think he always wore 2 button numbers w/darts). Can anyone find a photo of him dressing "Trad" after 1970? Maybe he saw the picture of him posted here and decided to buy clothes that fit.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> You can't aspire to be Trad. You are Trad or you aren't. You can aspire to 'look like' a Trad, but that's silly. It makes sense to wear any clothing that you think suits your taste. But to develop a wardrobe in an effort to fit into some particular "lifestyle" image is warped. If you grew up working class in Williamsburg and went to City College, but you want people to look at your haircut and glasses, suit and briefcase and THINK that you grew up in Connecticut and went to Yale, you should save the money you would have spent on your 'disguise' spend it on a really, really good therapist instead.


So by your reconning (sp?) there is no such thing as changing class or moving up in American society, you can't re-invent yourself?


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
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I'm from Connecticut and went to Columbia. I've lived all over the place. Certain sensibilities get hardwired through upbringing, wherever you're from. Either these sensibilities are trad or they're not.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
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I have my doubts that you purchsed Harris Tweed trousers at the Banana Republic. Unless it was 15-20 years ago...


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> You can't aspire to be Trad. You are Trad or you aren't. You can aspire to 'look like' a Trad, but that's silly. It makes sense to wear any clothing that you think suits your taste. But to develop a wardrobe in an effort to fit into some particular "lifestyle" image is warped. If you grew up working class in Williamsburg and went to City College, but you want people to look at your haircut, glasses, suit and briefcase and THINK that you grew up in Connecticut and went to Yale, you should save the money you would have spent on your 'disguise' and spend it on a really, really good therapist instead.


No it's actually the opposite strategy. My interest in Trad springs from two things :

1.) One really doesn't have to think about Trad because it's so simple once one gets it down pat. I call this the Einstein factor. Einstein wanted to wear the samething everyday so he wouldn't have to think about it --- buy multiple copies of the same clothes and rotate. Obviously Trad isn't that extreme in outlook but it's down that road of thinking in it's timelessness. Once one gets a certain set of interchangeable Trad clothes one no longer even has to think about clothes anymore at all !

2.) I didn't want to be a fashion victim and buy clothes that are walking billboards or clothes that will look ridiculous once the next fad comes along.

So as you can see it was not about consciously trying to look like a Yale graduate at all. It was a practical matter. Let the women worry about their clothes and "fashion trends".

Trad is all about saying "screw you fashion trends I'm stodgy bastard as wise and stable as an old oak tree." Although, it inadvertently had the side effect of making me look like an absent minded university professor. I always had the absent minded university professor "personality type" anyway so I don't see a contradiction.

However, it just so happens that this style of dressing does make me look somewhat like a 
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## nantucketred (Jul 9, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_


Oh dear. I leave for a while and come back to find I've been usurped.

Cheers,

Lip Tradford


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> You can't aspire to be Trad. You are Trad or you aren't. You can aspire to 'look like' a Trad, but that's silly. It makes sense to wear any clothing that you think suits your taste. But to develop a wardrobe in an effort to fit into some particular "lifestyle" image is warped. If you grew up working class in Williamsburg and went to City College, but you want people to look at your haircut, glasses, suit and briefcase and THINK that you grew up in Connecticut and went to Yale, you should save the money you would have spent on your 'disguise' and spend it on a really, really good therapist instead.


This is ridiculous.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dress however you like. But you can dress to reflect your taste, or you can dress to try to fool someone. Everyone knows the difference. Hip-hop guys from the 'hood dress "preppy" because they like it, or want to make a statement, or whatever. Obviously, they're not trying to fool anyone, but oftentimes snobs actually deride the fashion choice as being "inauthentic" as if these guys actually trying to fool people people into thinking they're New England old money or something. The criticism is pathetic and embarrassing, really.


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## Reptilicus (Dec 14, 2004)

It's sad that people will let their political leanings affect their vision. The look is marvelous and if it was a young Bill Clinton wearing it JPL probably would have loved it. Whenever I see these types of postings I always feel the need to remind people that this forum is about fasion and not a political soap box. There are plenty of other sites for political hacks to air their indignation.



> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> I hope I don't offend, but surely no gentlemen here strives to look like this.


"A good cigar is as great a comfort to a man as a good cry to a woman."
-- E.G. Bulwer-Lytton Darnley, 1845


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Not so long ago I dared to guess that trad entailed bold--even pastel--colors. A chum who has enough spare money and time to care and talk about such matters set me straight, admonishing for guessing wrong. He's 35 going on 80--wears three piece sacks every day and still uses a wooden tennis racquet. Very old fashioned. So it makes sense that he told me I was confusing the more "adolescent" look (for which "preppy" is known) with hardcore Dean Acheson style trad.
> 
> ...


I find the distinction between Trad and Preppy very worthwhile in exploring. While I generally agree with most of the points raised in this thread, I hope that some readers do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is definately a strong element of the Puritan/Yankee ethos in hard-core trad-dom, with all of the frugality, conservatism (intellectual, not political), and pilgrim-like color-scheme that goes therewith.

However, even the most die-hard trad still seems to possess a certain bonhomie and love of fun. For example, George Will is known to sport his Orioles baseball jacket around DC and Baltimore. George Bush loves to sport his Texas flag boots with his tux or suits.

The slippery-slope of such fun-loving apparel, and the distinction in my mind for those ultra-trads noted above, is that they do not wear such all the time.

As to the issue of whether Preppies became Yuppies and the public perception of "preppiness", I whole heartedly agree that those who "jumped on the bandwagon" and went all-out Preppy Handbook, are probably the same people who jumped on the Yuppy bandwagon.

The worst example of the confusion of what "preppy" means in mainstream media was on that idiotic show "Saved by the Bell." If you remember it, the bleach blonde kid was referred to as "Preppy" simply because he dressed "fancier" than the others. There was nothing prep-school, trad, ivy-league, or conservative about the character.

Just my thoughts. I enjoy the thread and the impressions offered.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But are they _Harris_?

That is, woven in the Outer Hebrides and bear the label to prove it?
Not disputing your claim of their trad appearance


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Tom Buchanan_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Preppy seems too golf course casual in many or some respects rather than the well rounded business casual. Trad is more of a timeless business casual or timeless absent minded professor look; which then consequently overlaps with the mad scientist look.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Just wondering-how did they arrive at $767.80 for either the poplin or seersucker suits. It would occur to me that once you're this far above market price either go to $750 or $775, not a number like $767.80.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by LongWing_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not if you actually read it. The key is the distinction between dressing "like a Trad" and dressing to "be mistaken for a Trad".


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trad is a mindset, not a birthright.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Knightly_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trad has many dimensions. Without putting too fine a point on it, there's a difference between dressing according to one's tastes and dressing as an affectation. We all know what it is when we're doing it. It's really not that complicated.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by LongWing_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep.

I think it's all this "trad lifestyle" and "authenticity" nonsense that so excites the ire of the trad haters. It certainly gets on my nerves.

I'm a Presbyterian of English/Scandinavian descent, went to a prep school with the blazer/khakis uniform, my dad was a conservative insurance exec, etc.

But we were in Kansas. No summers in coastal resorts, no sailing, no Bloody Mary brunches, tennis camp, or any of the rest of it. Actually, all that sounds kind of awful to me. I prefer watching good TV, playing rock and roll, B movies, comic books, going to the cinema in the afternoon, cheeseburgers and milk shakes on a Saturday.

I'm a stone liberal, have no interest in sports or politics or military history or whatever the hell the archetypical trad gentleman occupies himself with. I would sooner get a root canal than play a round of golf. Never been much of a drinker--my tastes in college ran to the psychedelic refreshments. I don't want anything cute embroidered on my pants. Notions of social position and breeding and clubbishness make me a little ill.

Am I a real trad?

I just love the clothes. I'm not pretending I went to Yale (I went somewhere just as good, albeit blazingly liberal and PC--and had an unbelievably good time), or that I grew up in Connecticut, or any of that guff. It's an aesthetic preference.

All these guys in bespoke Savile Row don't get accused of pretending to be British aristocrats. I don't get why this trad category has to be so touchy.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

This is always a very interesting discussion...

Though Homely didn't do a very good job of putting it into words, his post highlights something interesting: most relevant to this discussion is the fact that kids with trad pedigrees nowadays dress more preppy than trad while trad has become far more common among people without a trad background. 

I'd say that if trad were to have any application to anyone under 25, its manifestation would be what people here call preppy. I know that on this forum there is certainly something of a neo-trad movement but to me is seems very paradoxical to study the trad look.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

_If you grew up working class in Williamsburg and went to City College, but you want people to look at your haircut and glasses, suit and briefcase and THINK that you grew up in Connecticut and went to Yale, you should save the money you would have spent on your 'disguise'_ by Homely

I'm curious, is there a set way for City College graduates to dress? Are you talking contemporary City College, with open admission, or the City College of the 1930-40s, which produced many progressive liberals and had a great faculty?


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are misunderstanding. Clothes are clothes. Wear what you like. It is the preoccupation with associating oneself with a particular 'desirable' background/culture/status by way of one's clothing is what makes the whole thing pathetic.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> No, somehow they imitated the process in Thailand which seems like a very "Banana Republic" thing to do. That might explain the fruity small dotted color spice in them. However, it is Harris Tweed fabric.


No, I think then, it is merely tweed. "Harris" tweed must be handmade in the Scottish Hebrides. It's a brand name - not a style of tweed. Based on the picture, what you have is a herringbone tweedmade in Thailand - not Harris Tweed.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> Yep.
> 
> ...


I am not a Trad, so maybe I am not the right person to answer your question. I think the reason is that some of the "respected" Trads in your group talk about "learning manners by going to the nearest Presbetyrian church" or saying that you can only aspire to Trad if you were not born one. In other words, the grief that you get is really a self-fulfilling prophecy. I do have to say that it is quite annoying when people write as though they were Jane Austen or, worse, the Duke of Windsor. I look just as askance at them as I do comments like the ones I noted above.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Totally off the topic but I was surprised last spring to see CUNY had produced so many Rhodes scholars... is it really open admission?



> quote:_Originally posted by xcubbies_
> 
> _If you grew up working class in Williamsburg and went to City College, but you want people to look at your haircut and glasses, suit and briefcase and THINK that you grew up in Connecticut and went to Yale, you should save the money you would have spent on your 'disguise'_ by Homely
> 
> I'm curious, is there a set way for City College graduates to dress? Are you talking contemporary City College, with open admission, or the City College of the 1930-40s, which produced many progressive liberals and had a great faculty?


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

You are misunderstanding. Clothes are clothes. Wear what you like. It is the preoccupation with associating oneself with a particular 'desirable' background/culture/status by way of one's clothing is what makes the whole thing pathetic.
[/quote]

But where do you get your special telepathy helmet to divine the socio/cultural motivations of people re: their dress?

Because I'd like one. Maybe in patch madras.

By the way, everyone dresses to associate themselves with some kind of background/culture/status. If not, we'd all be in futuristic unisex jumpsuits.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> I don't see how preppy and Trad are related.


Well, what do trad clothing adherents wear on a casual Saturday afternoon or to a beach picnic - somewhere where they couldn't wear sack suits and a wonderful Harris tweed? Surely not a trucker cap, muscle shirt and denim shorts.

So I color myself confused about the distinction between trad casual clothing and "preppy" clothing. Are go-to-hell trousers preppy or trad? Patch madras? Are these items both preppy AND trad? Does the fact that J Crew now sells them make them untrad?

Just trying to clarify for understanding.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by iammatt_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good point. I agree. See the first sentence of my post.


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by VS_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, this is where the "trad vs. preppy" argument loses me.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm misunderstanding your point at all.

Let me respond by saying this: I grew up pretty well, and, comparatively, really damned well. I was lucky. And blessed. I inherited certain traditions and learned to appreciate them. Ditto for my brother and cousins. Somehow, some way, the education "took."

I attended a certain college where gents from all over the Mid-Atlantic and South enrolled to learn and participate in a very traditional (yes, some would say reactionary) culture. A lot of these guys came from backgrounds simliar to mine, which is fine. Nothing wrong with that. Sociology 101: "Birds of the same feather flock together."

But what I appreciated about the place--and continue to appreciate--is that there were also guys from not-quite-as-fortunate backgrounds. They wanted something else. Or "more" or "better." Were they wrong/immoral/unethical for that wanting such? I should hope not. This is America, where there the class structure is not rigid; we don't operate according to a caste system, and we encourage people who wish to change (for what they deem "better") to do so. This college about which I speak offered very generous financial aid packages to young gents who wanted to take advantage of the education--and yes, atmosphere and political connections--that the college provided and still provides.

Why would you dare to mock, ridicule, or judge them for taking advantage of such an opportunity? That takes a lot of nerve, doesn't it?

-Harris


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rocker_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, you know it's possible that some materials were shipped to Thailand like "Harris Herringbone tweed" and then Thailand just cut it and sowed it up with the non-tweed shell lining and for whatever reason on the tag it just says Thailand. Why the hell would they list two to three different countries on a tag ?

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## Goblin (Jan 31, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> And, by the way, your argument is the truly pathetic and ridiculous one. Taken to its logical extreme, it sounds this dumb:
> 
> ...


Few arguments survive being taken to their "logical extremes."

I can't speak for J. Homely, but I agree that many of the "is this trad? is this TRAD?" threads are a bit sad. I don't think anyone, including myself, would actually insist, straight-faced, that people with blue-collar roots should dress in lumpen jumpsuits by way of identification with their former class.

I'm baffled on an everyday basis by the number of threads devoted to "getting right" a lifestyle that's supposedly about material insouciance and not having to care too much about such things. It smacks of neurosis and insecurity.

There's a difference between saying "don't obsess over projecting a class-marked image" and saying "you must always wear the uniform of your class." If some people can't make the distinction, that's unfortunate.


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

To get back to the original discussion about trad v. preppy clothing, when I look at the Preppy Handbook, everything in the handbook re clothing seems trad to me. What passes for preppy now does not. Now, the whole sociological question may be different, but the sins in the handbook seem to be ones of omission and not comission. Remember, I am only talking about the clothes.


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by kforton_
> 
> To get back to the original discussion about trad v. preppy clothing, when I look at the Preppy Handbook, everything in the handbook re clothing seems trad to me. What passes for preppy now does not. Now, the whole sociological question may be different, but the sins in the handbook seem to be ones of omission and not comission. Remember, I am only talking about the clothes.


Hmmmm, never read the book but I do remember that I dressed like a mixture of preppy and raver (this was when raving sick elite cool like 1995-1998-9ish New York .. insane ..... nowadays the rave scene dead but that was insane New York Undeground partying .. intense elitism blah) ... I dunno how I would I dress if I was young enough to be in highschool today. I remember Preppy was more Fresh label conscious... I use to wear Tommy Hilfiger prepped out expensive sweaters over my shirts with lion in a circle over my one breast etc... Ralph Lauren polo clothes and "Polo Sport" and sometimes nautica. When I was younger in highschool "The Gap" etc..

I was like a preppy underground raver or something I don't even know... Trad just seems way less self consciousness and more like Fogeyish.. just straight up in your face "fogey". Preppy is too fresh and new and conscious of moronic status symbols on clothes etc..

Trad is more like f*ck you in your face I'm fogey (no matter how old you are you could 16-18 etc...)

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Do folks realize that The Preppy Handbook was a satire, of sorts, of Preppiedom? I don't think it's authors were preppies themselves.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you translate that for the slightly older amongst us. I am not sure that I know what preppy-underground-raver-elitist might be. I am imagining somebody with a madras colored bolt through his nose connected to a diamond earring by a swath of pink oxford cloth.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Geez, Dude - don't get in a snit. I don't care if the damn fabric is Harris Tweed or not. I really don't have a dog in this fight. I would assume if it were actually made out of Harris Tweed it would have the Harris Tweed label with the Orb. Most manufacturers make a point of using that label and specifying that it is "Harris Tweed" - I think a premium gets paid for "Harris Tweed" and hence it's unlike a manufacturer would buy the cloth and not use the labels - but, I'm sure your hypothesis is more reasonable....


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by xcubbies_
> 
> Do folks realize that The Preppy Handbook was a satire, of sorts, of Preppiedom? I don't think it's authors were preppies themselves.


People often bring up this fact to discredit the OPH, and I'm willing to believe it's true.

However, I have never seen anything written here by our esteemed experts that is at odds with anything in the handbook--not a single thing.

The intent behind the book may have been tongue-in-cheek (clearly its attitude towards preppies is one of affectionate, mild, mockery), but show me where they got it wrong.


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## GreyFlannelMan (Jun 16, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rocker_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course FP's hypothesis is more reasonable, because you know of the fine international reputation of Thai tweed. Why would you even want Harris Tweed?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> That's because that special rebellious species of sub-cultural underground character no longer exists. Corporations finally caught on and other things killed that sub-species of preppy. It was a short lived sub-species preppy contingent on a short lived elite undeground that no longer is really. It was period of like 3-5 years or maybe 8 at most - then DEAD. No longer elite .. LAME-O ... SOLD OUT ... All I know is anyone who happened to live in the U.K, New York, L.A and a few other cities in the USA were lucky as hell.. I was lucky son of a b**ch... They were the most elite giant insane parties ever held on the face of the earth.
> 
> ...


Lucky for you. How about an ativan.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

> quote:They were the most elite giant insane underground parties ever held on the face of the earth.


It would seem that in some cases they have had a lingering effect ...


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## gordgekko (Nov 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Showing no shirt sleeve cuff is fine, I posit, for Trads. ... Trad is partly about not attracting attention; carefully sited white cuffs can grab the eye.


I'm sorry bit it is never fine not to show cuff, Trad or otherwise. And frankly that last sentence bordered on the preposterous  Carefully polished shoes can grab the eye too, should Trads avoid polishing them, ha ha.



> quote:You can't aspire to be Trad. You are Trad or you aren't. You can aspire to 'look like' a Trad, but that's silly. It makes sense to wear any clothing that you think suits your taste. But to develop a wardrobe in an effort to fit into some particular "lifestyle" image is warped. If you grew up working class in Williamsburg and went to City College, but you want people to look at your haircut, glasses, suit and briefcase and THINK that you grew up in Connecticut and went to Yale, you should save the money you would have spent on your 'disguise' and spend it on a really, really good therapist instead.


I don't know if you're entirely right. I grew up and live in Northern Ontario. When I was in university I made a rather shocking discovery: I dressed Trad (not that I knew the word or what the concept meant back then, but there I was anyway). Sure, I wasn't the prototypical Tradster, how could I be given my isolation from that culture, but I was recognizably Trad. Somehow I grew up Trad in both attitude and clothing while never having set foot near Tradania. It almost seems spontaneous given my parents are Eastern European immigrants...

I'm not Trad anymore but it is possible to be Trad without having been born Trad.

---------------------
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> However, I have never seen anything written here by our esteemed experts that is at odds with anything in the (Preppy) handbook--not a single thing.
> 
> The intent behind the book may have been tongue-in-cheek (clearly its attitude towards preppies is one of affectionate, mild, mockery), but show me where they got it wrong.


That was my point, too. Whether someone has actually ever looked at the Preppy Handbook, or just grew up dressing this way is also beside the point. It's very tongue-in-cheek, but is the link below to anything besides a trad manner of dressing? No shaping, natural shoulders? Check.

Someone mentioned yuppies. Yuppies change their style every couple of years, but the clothes described below look fine, 25 years later, 25 years before that and probably 25 years from now.



> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> In the summer time ?
> 
> Seersucker sports coat, tan linen sports coat, blue cotton sports coat or a blue cotton/silk blend sports coat with khakis and the rest of the usual stuff (probably tieless or leave the tie in the car).... with bathing shorts underneath instead of underwear. Leave the oxford shoes in the car and change to some other foot wear or go shoeless depending etc.. etc.. I think you can figure out the rest.


https://img285.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ph3zo.jpg


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Possibly relevant - Brooks website claims that madras came out in 1930's which, I believe, would be right around or perhaps just before the dawn of the trad era.


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with Brownshoe on this one. Yes, the OPH does poke fun at the preppy lifestyle, etc. But there is some love in there. Nobody wants to believe that his lifestyle can be reduced to a satirical book, but on the clothes the OPH is 100% accurate. A lot of the OPH clothing seems similar to the description of the "Choatie" on the American/Trad thread.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by xcubbies_
> 
> _If you grew up working class in Williamsburg and went to City College, but you want people to look at your haircut and glasses, suit and briefcase and THINK that you grew up in Connecticut and went to Yale, you should save the money you would have spent on your 'disguise'_ by Homely
> 
> I'm curious, is there a set way for City College graduates to dress? Are you talking contemporary City College, with open admission, or the City College of the 1930-40s, which produced many progressive liberals and had a great faculty?


Several who later became so called neo-cons


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

I found pair of modern grey Izod wool pants that pleated in the front that are Tradly enough for me they aren't even a year old. What I'm saying is that modern vendors offer Tradly timeless clothes but you just have to know where to look. Something tells me Geoffrey Beene would modernly fogeyish and tradly in alot of ways. 

Here is Geoffrey Beene sports coat or blazer :




"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## GreyFlannelMan (Jun 16, 2004)

That Beene sportscoat is not at all Trad. Have you learned nothing from the vast amount of information about this subject here? First, it's two buttoned. Second, it's darted. Third, it is Geoffrey Beene. 

With respect to the Izod trousers you found, pleats are not all that trad.


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## Mr. Checks (Dec 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Reptilicus_
> 
> It's sad that people will let their political leanings affect their vision. The look is marvelous and if it was a young Bill Clinton wearing it JPL probably would have loved it. Whenever I see these types of postings I always feel the need to remind people that this forum is about fasion and not a political soap box. There are plenty of other sites for political hacks to air their indignation.
> 
> ...


So if someone doesn't think this looks good (if, for example, they believe the suit is too big, which it is, or that maybe a little cuff would look better, which it would) then that person is some type of a political hack? I admire your defense of the rich and privileged, and your manufactured outrage at any perceived slight to them.

FWIW, I like the old man, and I like the look (with the exceptions noted above).


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by GreyFlannelMan_
> 
> That Beene sportscoat is not at all Trad. Have you learned nothing from the vast amount of information about this subject here? First, it's two buttoned. Second, it's darted. Third, it is Geoffrey Beene.
> 
> With respect to the Izod trousers you found, pleats are not all that trad.


One of the easiest ways to find Trad is to buy a label that a yuppie would never think about .. while the yuppie is fidgeting over Donna Karan and Armani modern style sleek clown jackets -- just head on out get a "Haggar" tweed jacket for winter or just get an old British Scottish tweed one. I can't see how a Haggar jacket is a nominal yuppie brand.

*POW wham bang ! Haggar instant Trad* :










Scottish one :










Iron Trad never goes out of style. This Trad is in style all the time 24/7 :










"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

This is a rather interesting thread. I can't seem to find a category for myself! Just happy I guess and I like my clothing. I would bet eg that Harris et. al., would not consider me a "true trad hombre." That's OK. I didn't attend a prep boarding school, but did go to a local "private school" where my Mother taught.

I went to a non-Ivy state school. (Ohio State)

I have never owned pleated trousers. Hate them. However, I do wear 2 button darted coats, but only wear navy blazers, navy suits and grey suits. Uh oh,,,,,,,now I may be finding "my category" as I write this. I am a "minimalist boxed-in semi trad."

I only own Brooks ties. About 50 rep ties and a few clubs. Never owned anything else. Got a lot of crap during the 90's from lady friends for it too! Tuff. I refused to "update" my ties as they would suggest from time to time.

I only wear Alden British tassels in shell cordo black and burgundy and in addition the Alden Leisure handsewns from Brooks and also the line version from Alden. (as well as the 984) Plain and simple.

Oh, also Bills and Charleston plain front khakis too.

Now, I realize as a real tried and true trad I would wear say a pink button down. Never........Only white, blue, and the blue striped Brooks. All Brooks, nothing else. Very boring I know. What is really easy is that I could get dressed blindfolded if I had to and everything would match up fine. I never worked in an office environment, so variety was not important to me. (outside sales for 25 years.) I do wear grosgrain ribbon watchbands, but on the other hand would never wear ribbon belts. (I do tend to deal in "absolutes" every now and then![8D])

I am interested in feedback just out of pure boredom in my personal life at the moment. Don't bother calling my style of dress very very boring. I already know and admit that!


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really don't know what trad is, do you? You're just posting pictures for the sake of posting pictures? That's OK, but I just want to be sure.


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by young guy_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have yet to discover the Zen guru like existence of true Trad.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> Preppy seems too golf course casual in many or some respects rather than the well rounded business casual. Trad is more of a timeless business casual or timeless absent minded professor look; which then consequently overlaps with the mad scientist look.


Is this an example of "zen"...or free association thought. Oh, they're not the same thing BTW.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

Simple definition: If you're a preppy, trad is Dad.


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Larsd4_
> 
> Simple definition: If you're a preppy, trad is Dad.


I deleted most of my posts and I give up trying to communicate to these people. Trad is obvious it needs no explaination it's self evident. Too frustrating and not worth it to waste your breath.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

If you look in the Winter J Press catalog, it seems that most of the suits have almost the same roll. I'm sure that the illustration is an approximation. If you are telling me that the OPH taken as a whole is totally different from trad, then that just makes no sense to me because the resemblances ar uncanny.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would suggest that you delete them all on this subject as you've been unflinchingly incorrect throughout this entire thread.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I believe was mentioned in another thread, the authors were indeed "preppies" or whatever you'd like to call them in our bi-monthly preppy vs. trad arguments. They were secondary school educated, Ivy League or top tier college attending individuals. One story on the book in the NYT from the 1980s reveals an interview with one of the authors, who states that she was chided by relatives for writing a book that was too revealing about a culture that prided itself on reservedness. She recalled that one of her parents friends had read the book, gone home, and counted dozens of duck motifs in her home.

Mpcsb, I believe, also noted that friends of his from "genuine preppy" backgrounds were among the first to buy the book and read it aloud at parties. Probably this was because it was an accurate spoof. I certainly had moments of strong identity after looking around my house reading it the first time.

I think it's often a very accurate though funny book, and Harris, I noticed the suit drawing too, but all of the stores in "Where to Shop" and descriptions would have, in 1980, suggested/sold the three-roll-to-two suit anyway. Perhaps the defect lay in the artist's inability to draw that.

While I have yet to hear someone on any campus at which I've been a student resort to most of the acronyms in the back of the book (except g&t), and have never seen anyone nor know how to "gator", etc, the cars section, the geographical sections, and the clothing sections I find quite accurate.


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Coolidge, I know you could gator. Just meet me out for drinks some evening, and I will introduce you to a few young ladies. Wear an old shirt and get ready to roll around all over your back.
You could probably be a fine gator man. A barrister gator champion.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Glad to hear that noone gators anymore.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by LongWing_
> 
> Glad to hear that noone gators anymore.


Everyone did at my school dances, whenever "Shout" was played.

It's hell on your blazer!


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


is that what Blutarski & Co are doing in Animal House

EDIT: Sadly, they don't even PLAY "Shout" anymore...more likely "youza fine muthaf***ah wont you back that a** up"...the only decent dance was Spring Ball at college, there at least you could show off ballroom, but all the other dances are hip hop now.

EDIT: LongWing, gatoring may be silly, but considering what they do out there now, it seems downright classy.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Cantabrigian_
> 
> I'd say that if trad were to have any application to anyone under 25, its manifestation would be what people here call preppy. I know that on this forum there is certainly something of a neo-trad movement but to me is seems very paradoxical to study the trad look.


As a 23 year old, let me run with this point. Also, I'm from the South (~190 years) so not a true New England trad. I would argue that, at least in the South, there are thousands of trads, would-be trads, and soon-to-be trads who are not preppy. They are much closer to rumpled than to preppy (but then, aren't all college students rumpled?)

There is a rather large number of university undergraduates at the "crown jewel" state universites in the south (UVA, UNC, UGA, Bama, Ole Miss, and I dont know about UT, UK, UF, and USC) who are from Southern trad backgrounds but don't wear pants with whales on them (or dogs). I would think there are also similar young men at various private universities too (is Tulane full of seersuckered young trads?).

Their default pants are chinos. Every day. Some do not own any jeans. They wear Rainbow flip flops, boat shoes, or loafers year round. They all own a suit, a blazer, and often another sportcoat and a tuxedo (meager by AAAC, but rare among other 18-25 year olds). Seersucker pants, jackets, or both are worn during the late spring, summer, and early fall. The blue, yellow, pink, and white button downs are a staple. When they rarely appear in public in a t-shirt, it is usually from a fishing tournament, ocean-side resturant, or outdoor supply store. They wear "boring" neck ties or bow ties. On some campuses, mid-thigh length chino shorts are very popular. Collectively this is sometimes called the "frat boy look" as many of them are in fraternities. The preferred mode of transportation is a hand-me-down mid-late 90s SUV.

Typically the extent of thier preppiness is a ribbon belt (in school colors) or an emblematic belt. Unless you consider seersucker suits and bow ties to be preppy...

Many of these young men have trad values, are trad, or will become more trad as they age. Growing up many of thier clothes came from places like "K&S Prep Store" (if they grew up near me!) and most of thier clothes now come from Brooks, Bean, or Lands End (with a few exceptions of course, like Carhart canvas pants and barn coats, UVA students at Eljos, etc). They will wear thier buttondowns, Bill's, or boat shoes untill they absolutely fall apart. They wouldn't be caught dead buying something at Ralph Lauren Rugby.

If the 3 button sack is the lithmus test for a true-trad, then almost all of them would fail. However they are where most of the next generation trads will be drawn from. Hopefully they will discover J.Press, Southwick, and the sacks left at Brooks.

One of the traddliest guys I know under 25 is named Alden...

The J.Crew set on campus (two polos in neon colors with popped collars and lobster shorts) are more into preppy for fashion, and will likely never be trad.

---------------------

Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> One of the traddliest guys I know under 25 is named Alden...


Way cool, better than having an uncle nick-named "Bif".

Cheers


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With that descritpion, I can see a difference, albeit not a huge one, between trad and preppy. I still think that preppy, which seems more outrageous than trad, is more like Harris's "Choatie."


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## jlmwrite (Dec 27, 2005)

> quote:There is a rather large number of university undergraduates at the "crown jewel" state universites in the south (UVA, UNC, UGA, Bama, Ole Miss, and I dont know about UT, UK, UF, and USC) who are from Southern trad backgrounds but don't wear pants with whales on them (or dogs). I would think there are also similar young men at various private universities too (is Tulane full of seersuckered young trads?).


Crazyquik, I haven't been back to UT in 20 years, but I can assure you that certain fraternities in the '70s selected new members based on preppy backgrounds -- and we certainly wore pants with whales on them! Madras shorts with BB boxers hanging below them were all the rage, and a Lacoste shirt was a given if one wasn't wearing a buttondown...


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## malinda (Aug 25, 2002)

This thread has been subjected to an overbearing number of edits today which have been keeping it at the top of Page 1. Please consider your posts carefully before hitting the Post button and bear Rule #5 in mind.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by kforton_
> 
> If you look in the Winter J Press catalog, it seems that most of the suits have almost the same roll. I'm sure that the illustration is an approximation. If you are telling me that the OPH taken as a whole is totally different from trad, then that just makes no sense to me because the resemblances ar uncanny.


Most of the suits in the Press catalog have that roll? To the top button? Low gorge? Oh my.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

"As I believe was mentioned in another thread, the authors (OPH)were indeed "preppies" or whatever you'd like to call it. " by Coolidge

Coolidge, I think Birnbach is a Hebrew name. Can one be a Preppy and a Hebrew simultaneously? That seems to be one of the unspoken themes running through the thread.


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jlmwrite_
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> quote:
> A true Trad would shun righthand symbols or labels over the breast (a true Trad also shuns gaudy bright colors ) e.g. :
> 
> 
> ...


In fact I've gone so far as to cut internal labels out of some of shirts and not because I'm embarassed of the manufacturer or distributor but just because ... it's the Trad state of mind (not the labels with the washing instructions on them though). A True trad highly resents the attempt to brand him like cattle and make him stand out in bright loud clothes like a clown. Do I even have to mention RFID tags ? I don't think so ... because a true Trad never runs into a situation were he might be branded with such high tech human cattle tracking devices. A True trad probably never wears short sleeves in public anyway only long sleeves even in the summer time.

The trad then continues to eat Nietszche pops cereral for breakfast while condemning and cursing "the herd" :

Bright vibrant gaudy colors in action :

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## Chris H (Oct 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It appears you can now order the Southwick Douglas with one lapel rolled to the top button and the other rolled to the second button!

https://www.southwickclothing.com/douglas_current.htm


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> In fact I've gone so far as to cut internal labels out of some of shirts and not because I'm embarassed of the manufacturer or distributor but just because ... it's the Trad state of mind (not the labels with the washing instructions on them though). A True trad highly resents the attempt to brand him like cattle and make him stand out in bright loud clothes like a clown. Do I even have to mention RFID tags ? I don't think so ... because a true Trad never runs into a situation were he might be branded with such high tech human cattle tracking devices. A True trad probably never wears short sleeves in public anyway only long sleeves even in the summer time.
> 
> "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
> -Bertrand Russell


I've never cut a label out of a garment unless it irritated my skin.

Color is not consciously shunned, just not sought out as in 80s preppy style. Muted colors are preferred, certainly, but the occasional bright color can have its place, as do short sleeves in the summer. A bit of visibility and cool comfort are not out of place when sailing.

My objection to prominent labels and logos has always been that I don't want to pay for clothes that give corporate juggernauts free advertising. LV and Gucci are two extreme examples.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No the true Trad never wears short sleeves or shorts in public. Who are the most radical Trads on the planet ? The Amish and they never skirts or shorts that expose the knee or shorts sleeves in public etc... people in the 19th century never wore short sleeves in public. The radical Trad mindset in clothing , furniture and other styles is not the 1950s mindset but the freaking 1830s.

You don't understand the Trad mindset. The Trad doesn't reject modern technology and science like the Amish though but that is the only sphere where the Trad might be modern : technology and science.

Radical Amish Trads :

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Reptilicus_
> 
> It's sad that people will let their political leanings affect their vision. The look is marvelous (...)


I don't see why you have to assume these comments to be politically motivated. I find various faults with this look (see Rocker's post, to which I would add that I find the tie knot a bit thin for his neck, and the shirt collar a bit short), and they have nothing to do with politics.

Still, that is not a bad look, just very far from perfect.


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What shorts sleeves,mini-skirts and women with their head unvovered in in public ?










"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## pinkgreenpolo (Jul 15, 2005)

Wow, 
[?][?]After all those posts I still do not have a clear idea what the difference is. I have a few "go to hell" shirts and pants (bright colors,madras, and a lot of patchwork in my closet)and purchase clothing that are classics, not the hottest trends. I vacation on the East Coast, Maine Nantucket etc. If that makes me a Trad, great, if that makes me a preppy great.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by FrancisPlantagenet_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm really at a loss for how to respond to this. If you feel the need to define trad by taking your argument to its extreme logical conclusion, far be it from me to stop you. All I can do is disagree.

I suggest you do some reading of the archived pdf files of previous trad vs preppy discussions. The trad discussed here is quite distinct in both its origins and style from that of the Amish.

You've now posted pictures of Oxford dons, cattle, Nietzsche Pops, and Amish. What this has to do with the trad associated with elite East-coast educational institutions, I can't quite fathom. The picture of GHWB nailed it. Why go all over the map?

I just hope Harris arrives to help put things in their proper perspective.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

I've been thinking a lot lately about the "trad v. preppy" debate.

Trad is a mode of dress rooted in a specific historic context, not a lifestyle. Preppy is mode of dress associated with a lifestyle. Preppies will likely dress in the "trad" mode for business, but not all trads will dress "preppy" on the weekend.

It might help to think of it this way: "trad" is a backward projection--certainly the folks wearing buttondowns and sack suits in the 1950s didn't consider themselves "trad", they were simply dressing in the manner that men dressed. If anything, trad should be called "1950s urban professional style", but that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. We can look back at a picture of Miles Davis and say, "Man, doesn't Miles look trad in that picture", but no one in the 1950s would have said, "Man, Miles, that's one trad suit!". I just saw a documentary on Howlin' Wolf that has a clip of him from 1966 sitting there singing with his band wearing what looks like a flap pocket buttondown shirt.

Trad dress was, for a few decades, the 1950s and 1960s at least, the most acceptable way for an adult professional male to dress himself--think the "Man in the Gray Flannel Suit" or "The Organization Man". It could be found in almost any town in America and represented the democratization of men's style. In contrast, preppy is a much more localized phenomenon, confined primarily to the Eastern seaboard. Trad began to lost its dominance in the late 1960s and early 1970s but maintained its adherents, most of whom seem to be (or have produced progeny) who seem to be on this board.

I fail to see how "trad" encompasses all of the cultural baggage people want to assign to it--men in Des Moines, Duluth, and Denver dressed "trad" without the benefit of prep school and Ivy League educations. There are probably lifestyle accoutrements, which means there might be a "trad dog", but I don't believe that "trad" is something you have to be born into or live through. Certainly one can adopt trad style without being a class or race traitor. Preppy on the other hand, does imply certain cultural life experiences, or at least it did at one point, before the great preppy explosion of the 1980s.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will pick apart what I've said, but that's the way I see it.

Regards,

Charles

https://bostonhistory.typepad.com


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Preppies read "The Official Preppy Handbook"; Trads on the other hand read stuff like Rene Guenon, Julius Evola, Oswald Spengler, religious texts etc.. etc.. and pick up the clothing style through common sense, their fathers or perhaps even by watching a few old movies. In fact Julius Evola and Rene Guenon probably wrote all the official Trad books and none of the books where about something as shallow as "clothes". Rene Guenon and Julius Evola where both "radical traditionalists".

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## malinda (Aug 25, 2002)

The constant post editing and pointless disputation exhibited by some in this thread are growing tiresome. FP, could you proofread your posts BEFORE you hit the "Post New Reply" button? Please?


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

Or they grew up with it and now it has a name.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

What is the appeal of 'sack' suits? I have seen examples of 'Trad' posted on this board, in which the gentleman looks quite good - ie with shirt cuff showing and a pocket-square, &c. It's difficult for me to relate what those gentlemen have been shown wearing to the sloppy appearance of the senior Mr Bush which has been depicted on this thread.

Perhaps I am confused, but hasn't the late US Senator Moynihan been described on this forum as 'trad'?


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> I've been thinking a lot lately about the "trad v. preppy" debate.
> 
> ...


I think this is absolutely right and very well stated.

Nicely done!


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Psychological warfare with some suttle highbrow biting satire within it.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> I've been thinking a lot lately about the "trad v. preppy" debate.
> 
> ...


The problem is there are too many people within the normal 90-130 IQ range. People with IQs over 130 are alot less conscious of status manners and place. Indeed someone like Einstein dressed Trad for practical reasons and for other no reasons.

The main attraction of Trad is it's extreme practicality and reasonableness. However, you get these normal people and they automatically try to assign station, class and status based just on how someone chose how to practically adorn himself through his practical reasoning abilities or faculties.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## HoustonTEX (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post. This describes the Texas version of trad perfectly. I am about 10 years older than you but in my college days the Fraternity crowds at particular Texas Schools (UT, TCU, SMU, and Tech) were exactly like you Southern Trad you described. They mixed in redwing boots and jeans but everything else is the same.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

FP,
Perhaps you would be happier posting on a Mensa board.


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## Goblin (Jan 31, 2006)

It's almost a given that any post decrying the intellectual shortcomings of "the average person" will contain basic errors of spelling, grammar, and syntax.


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## malinda (Aug 25, 2002)

The superfluous edits and thread bumping are exceeding the limit of tolerance. Consider your post before submitting it. If you notice an error, correct it immediately. Do not continue coming back to edit the same posts an hour or a day later. Consider this a final warning.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> But where do you get your special telepathy helmet to divine the socio/cultural motivations of people re: their dress?


I don't need it -- that's for them to deal with. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but obviously there are people who do it.



> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> By the way, everyone dresses to associate themselves with some kind of background/culture/status. If not, we'd all be in futuristic unisex jumpsuits.


Sure, people dress according to their culture, status, professional status or lifestyle, taste, of course. That's different than dressing a certain way because you've got an inferiority complex and want to hide your Williamsburg/City College origins and want people to think you have a more 'acceptable' background. If people want to do it, no skin off my nose, certainly, but I just think it's unfortunate.

IMHO, people should just get past all the 'background status' nonsense. A few people have posted about where they grew up, went to school, spent their summers, etc. Wherever and however you were raised is fine, but frankly, I think its silly to try to associate the 'right' to DRESS a certain way with a certain cultural, financial or educational 'pedigree'.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> I've been thinking a lot lately about the "trad v. preppy" debate.
> 
> ...


Really good post. I think all the bickering comes from the fact that people think of 'Trad' in different ways. I think of myself as DRESSING 'Trad' in some ways, but I could never BE Trad in the Old Money, summers-in-Nantucket sense that people associate with it.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by malinda_
> 
> The superfluous edits and thread bumping are exceeding the limit of tolerance. Consider your post before submitting it. If you notice an error, correct it immediately. Do not continue coming back to edit the same posts an hour or a day later. Consider this a final warning.


Forgive me, I don't understand. Does it cause problems when people go back and correct typos, etc? Obviously, it's confusing if the substance is changed and people have already responded to the original, but typos?


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll respond once more and then drop this, because I don't want to be a bore (too late, probably).

Sincerely, I don't get your point. What would a City College grad (hate that it seems we're picking on them) wear that would indemnify him from accusations of "dressing above his station" or whatever the objection is? All I can think of is a City College sweatshirt.

I honestly don't believe anyone wears a bd oxford, rep tie, and khakis in an attempt to mislead anyone about his background. Again, what else should he wear? If he's from a farming community, is he condemned to overalls? "Trad" clothes are simply one of many options for tasteful male dress. If that CC grad wears Kiton, he is not pretending to be an elegant Italian playboy, right?

How does dressing well indicate an inferiority complex or anxiety about one's background? I just think you're assigning motivations to people based on notional evidence that doesn't really hold water. The trad is simply an attractive, conservative style that appeals to all sorts of people for its reserved, classic good taste. All of this sociological handwringing, I would guess, is confined to we zealots on this board, who certainly enjoy a good tempest in a teapot.

As to your last paragraph: Amen.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

Let me add my 2 cents to the actual topic of the thread:

I have always thought of "preppy" as the sportswear arm of the "trad."

Pretty simple definition, works for me.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Mr. Paul Mellon, collector, philanthropist, all-around swell gent:
> 
> ...


Harris have you read _Reflection in a Silver Spoon_ by Mellon, wonder if it's a good read.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

This thread made me recall something I always admired about Paul Mellon. I recall reading that he graduated from Yale and went into the banking business because that is what he was expected to do. When his father passed away, leaving him an extraordinarily rich man in his 20s, he quit the bank and enrolled in tiny St. John's College in Annapolis. For those who do not know, St. John's entire curriculum is The Great Books - if you want to learn math, you read Pythagorous, et al. That always struck me as a much better way of expressing yourself as your own person than taking drugs, starting an entertainment career, or doing whatever else so many heirs and heirous's do.

I will point out that Mellon's shoulders look rather padded in that picture. I guess no one is perfect


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> I've been thinking a lot lately about the "trad v. preppy" debate.
> 
> ...


We've disagreed on other things but I am right there with you on this one.

Coolidge


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## MichaelB (Dec 17, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> I've been thinking a lot lately about the "trad v. preppy" debate.
> 
> ...


I think that Charles hits the nail on the head in his post. The kids I teach here at a NE boarding school for the most part wouldn't know the term "trad" nor the subtleties of trad fashion (undarted three button jackets, Alden cordovan tassels, Timex watches and so on). All that is obscure sartorial history or anthropology (beloved of us, however). But they definitely know and use the term "preppy," most of them dress the part, and a lot of them live the life--summering on the Cape or some similar spot, sailing, country clubs, etc. As Charles says, preppiness "does imply certain life experiences." Coaching our sailing team a couple seasons ago, I recall watching one of our female sailors pulling on her drysuit (the water is in the 30's early in the season, and we were standing outside in sleety winds.) Just before she zipped up the the heavy nylon and rubber suit, she stopped and said, "Oh, just as second, I almost forgot." Then she unhooked her pearls and slipped the necklace into its red leather travel case. I said to the team, "Now I know that I'm teaching at a prep school."


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

MichaelB

Not to argue:

I don't think anyone here expects kids in prep school to know the term trad, seeing as it was coined by one of our august members. The word preppy has been around since a certain _Lovestory_ book.

What do the parents of your student wear? I would bet you've seen a few folks who were wearing clothes bought at Brooks or Press or Eljos or some such place.

Do the kids think their parents dress preppy? or maybe a bit oldfashioned? I haven't been in s prep school for 30 years so I admit I miss alot and don't know alot.

Cheers


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> How does dressing well indicate an inferiority complex or anxiety about one's background?


It doesn't, necessarily. But some people certainly do have these issues -- I've known some of them. That's all.


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

Not really sure if I am addressing the post exactly, but I would say that I dress fairly trad. (especially for my geographic location ie Ohio) I looked at my father's wardrobe as a kid, and thought, OK, I idolize my Dad and want to dress like he does. 

He wore nothing but navy and grey suits. He did wear black wing tips which I don't. (currenly although I used to) He certainly wasn't "preppy" with respect to wearing "bright colors." In fact, one time when I came home from college wearing a pink BD oxford, he said, "Why are you wearing that fruity shirt?" Looking back, I think it was funny. He only wore white and blue ox BS's. He grew up in a very conservative neighborhood in Cincinnati, OH which by the way is very "preppy" nowdays! Tree lined streets and BMW's everywhere. Every young prep in Cincy wants to move to the Mariemont community. (on the National Registry.)
Back to clothing. I am very frugal, (sometimes to a fault) and have just found that keeping it "ultra simple" and not caring what others think about my dress is best for me. (except for the pink shirt comment!)

He wore white bucks and sack suits in high school and college. Of course, we are talking the 50's, so what else would a well-dressed guy wear?

I am just plain happy wearing my grey slacks, khakis, navy blazers, navy and grey suits and Brooks reps. Aldens as well. Very simple but not "prep" like described here. ie no pink sweaters, no lime green pants, no pants with whales, no bright socks (only black OTC) etc. I know it is boring, but it makes me happy.

All the best, 
Joe


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

One more quick post. (don't want to make Malinda mad or "dominate a string.")

I have fleeting moments when I consider a pair of "go to hell trousers." Like maybe a navy pair with some green print in them. Then, I realize something. It is a self-confidence issue. I have lived on and off in Columbus, OH over the years for a long long time. I have NEVER seen anyone with a pair on. If I were to stroll into a club (yes I am divorced) with a pair of those on, people would literally scatter. I would be viewed as gay. This is a midwestern ******* part of the country so to speak. Hell, my rep ties in the early 90's elicited enough comments at work. eg Where did you get that "old tie?" Pink oxford on a 49 year old man, well let's just say I would attract the wrong species. A fella named Timothy would try to gently caress my hand. Sorry for the ill humor, but I had to toss it in. 
Envy here. Maybe I need to move to Boston or Charleston.

All the best, 
Joe Morgan


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> How many "famous" people shun what's faddish or popular or "in" for the rarer, more archaic American Trad look? Not many. George Will stands out, as does political pundit/editor Fred Barnes. Few public servants come to mind, although there are exceptions.


On the coverage of the Coretta Scott King funeral, one of the local reporters around Atlanta was wearing a 3 roll 2 sack sportcoat. My eyes lit up when I noticed that buttonhole.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jmorgan32_
> 
> ...I have fleeting moments when I consider a pair of "go to hell trousers." Like maybe a navy pair with some green print in them. Then, I realize something. It is a self-confidence issue. I have lived on and off in Columbus, OH over the years for a long long time. I have NEVER seen anyone with a pair on. If I were to stroll into a club (yes I am divorced) with a pair of those on, people would literally scatter. I would be viewed as gay. This is a midwestern ******* part of the country so to speak. Hell, my rep ties in the early 90's elicited enough comments at work. eg Where did you get that "old tie?" Pink oxford on a 49 year old man, well let's just say I would attract the wrong species...


You are not alone; my own mother recoiled at my new Breton reds, which fit me perfectly. They would go unnoticed in Toronto, however, which is probably the only place I will wear them.

DD


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## thursston1028 (Nov 9, 2005)

Man, we love to see folks talking about clothes but this topic is a bit lame don't you guys think? Preppy and traditional are synonyms in my humble opinion. In fact, I think the word preppy described the late 70's through the late 80's like the look in the Preppy Handbook and Preppy Calendar which we provided all the clothes for. And in fact, I'm kinda tired of the word preppy. The name of my store is "Eljo's Traditional Clothes".. Not Virginia Preppy Clothes. The term preppy should be remembered fondly from the past much like and old favorite, now deceased dog... Let's retire the word Preppy? How about it? Traditional, Trad.. whatever you want to call it, but let's retire the word Preppy... Come up with a new word maybe???
Keep up the great work here you guys that post stuff. I enjoy it! Keep in touch.......Trent Thurston [email protected]


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK so I live in the great fly-over states too, but I have always worn and know people who have always worn "go to hell" pants. My favorite are a pair of four panels where each panel is either a bright red, yellow, blue or green. They're very old and I save them to make the most impact. The whole idea is summed up in their name - isn't it? You know, with a navy blazer, white ocbd, repp tie and loafers, they may be just the thing for the summer opera. I'd be a beacon of color in a sea of seersucker suits!


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

I don't thinkn bright colors are preppy and not trad. In several earlier posts, Harris has mentioned that two fellows. One was wearing a navy chalk stripe suit with a pink oxford, bow tie, and lime or yellow socks and tassels. In anotehr he mentions an older gentleman who wears only bright colors. These folks were trad in Harris's estimation, and he seems to be the ultimate judge around here. 

We are veering into the attitudes of preps v. trads, which was not my intention. I think attitudes vary greatly among people who look preppy or trad. There are good and bad in both camps. I anjoy being mistaken for being of noble birth once in a while. That's part of the fun of dressing with whales, grosgrain, Aldens, etc. When I walk into a trad shop, they can't believe that I heard about them through the grapevine and not from dear old dad. Well, my dad was a bastard, and it was difficult to get him into a long sleeve shirt. He never owned a suit. Now that I am a professional after working like hell I choose to look sort of old line. It is fake, ultimately, but it suits me.


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## MichaelB (Dec 17, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> MichaelB
> 
> ...


The term "preppy" antedates Love Story. As to the parents: some of the fathers wear BB or Press suits or jackets, and the moms, Talbots. Rather staid. But I see a lot more preppy sportswear, since I tend to see the parents not in their professional wardrobe, but at afternoon games, or on moving-in day, or when they are picking their kids up for a weekend. Khakis are the uniform for the kids and, it seems, just as much for the parents. Khaki shorts with loafers. Vineyard Vines or RL polo shirts. Buttondowns with rolled sleeves. North Face or Columbia fleece jackets with the school crest. Barbours--waxed cotton or, for the women, quilted barn jackets and J.P. Tod driving mocs. In cold weather, corduroys and Bean boots. At graduation, suits but lots of navy blazers, madras trousers, pastel oxford-cloth pants . . . . In short, as an earlier post says, preppy seems to be trad casual wear--sporty, fun, even tongue-in-cheek (the deliberately over-the-top,in your face whale/lobster/labrador motif on ties, pants, bowties). Consider that most of the parents of my students are in their forties, maybe early fifties. They grew up in an informal world. Only my students' grandparents would have been formed, sartorially, during the Trad heyday.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by kforton_
> It is fake, ultimately, but it suits me.


And if that's what you like good for you and enjoy. My Roumanian grandparents would be proud of you. They believed as I believe America is a country where you CAN reinvent yourself, and by hard work get a better life (as in a life you can enjoy). My parents worked very hard and I was very fortunate. So if I bump into you in Brooks (or some such place) don't be surprised if I smile, nod, and then ignore you. Nothing personal, but you know, if you're one of us well...


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Huh?


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by thursston1028_
> 
> Man, we love to see folks talking about clothes but this topic is a bit lame don't you guys think? Preppy and traditional are synonyms in my humble opinion. In fact, I think the word preppy described the late 70's through the late 80's like the look in the Preppy Handbook and Preppy Calendar which we provided all the clothes for. And in fact, I'm kinda tired of the word preppy. The name of my store is "Eljo's Traditional Clothes".. Not Virginia Preppy Clothes. The term preppy should be remembered fondly from the past much like and old favorite, now deceased dog... Let's retire the word Preppy? How about it? Traditional, Trad.. whatever you want to call it, but let's retire the word Preppy... Come up with a new word maybe???
> Keep up the great work here you guys that post stuff. I enjoy it! Keep in touch.......Trent Thurston [email protected]


I concur wholeheartedly. Traditional. Or, if you want, Trad. Let's retire "Preppy."

Cheers.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by iammatt_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I truly hate seeing shirt between tie and buckle and seeing buckle peeking out of jacket. His trouser rise is far too short for his jacket. This may be trad, but it's not good style.

Esse Quam Videre


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

I think this debate is lame too. The only reason I brought it up was to prove Thurston's point: that the two are synonymous. I don't know why the word "preppy" conjures up such negative feelings, but trad does not. Now that some of us agree, I'll retire it.


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by kforton_
> 
> I don't know why the word "preppy" conjures up such negative feelings...


Because the word has often been used as a perjorative. I can just recall as an 11-year old in the early 1980s being assaulted in the mean streets of New Canaan for wearing Lacoste or madras or cords. The accusation on the lips of these filthy townies was always the same: "preppy!"


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## marc_au (Apr 22, 2004)

deleted.......

*GR8MAN (The Shooman) B8MAN.*


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Old Brompton_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's strange to think of the streets of New Canaan as "mean," but when you're 11 years old, bullies lurk everywhere.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

Here here!


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