# What are my Neapolitan suit options?



## phaedo (Dec 11, 2007)

Hello all,

For a year I had been planning for a Kilgour bespoke suit. And then last week everything changed.

I tried on a Borrelli jacket and realized that Kilgour's highly-structured look was all wrong. I have soft facial features, soft sloping shoulders, slim neck, slim body, yet wider hips. My coloring is pale with red hair. The general effect is a gentle, organic one that doesn't work at all with roped shoulders and Romanesque cuts. Borrelli's spalla camicia shoulder and beautiful waist suppression in an earth-tone cashmere-blend seemed to be a perfect match.

Problem: Borrelli is $4000-$6000 for made-to-measure. Given my body shape, I'd prefer bespoke. 

Rubinacci looks like another great option -- but I have no idea of the price and can't really afford to get to Naples. (Kiton & Brioni are out -- too structured)

Is there a New York or Saville Row tailor that cold accommodate? I was told by one person that A&S has turned out some Neapolitan cuts. Furthermore, is there a risk of asking one of these tailors to diverge from their house style, especially given the complexities of spalla camicia, etc?

Advice on options would be greatly appreciated!


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Rubinacci visits NYC every now and then. If travel to Naples is truly impossible, then I'd wait to see Mariano or Luca at the Carlyle. A suit will start at around $4800, jackets at $3800 or so. I wouldn't even consider Borrellii or Kiton for those prices. Why buy MTM when you can get bespoke with much better quality construction for the same price?

If you just want soft, it doesn't have to be 'Neapolitan'--whatever that's come to mean. A&S does a soft jacket, but that's just what they typically do. It's not fair to say they do a 'Neapolitan' jacket, particularly since A&S came first.

I'm not sure what tailors in the U.S. can do something like a Rubinacci jacket. The technique involves much more than just removing padding and using light canvas. From what I understand, Chris Despos is interested in making soft jackets in the typical Neapolitan fashion, but I don't have any direct knowledge of his work.

If for some reason you _must_ stick to MTM in the U.S., and you like soft, consider something made by Castangia--available at Barney's under the Battistoni label and supposedly at Jay Kos (he won't say for sure who makes his suits). Despite what anyone thinks of Kos, the jackets are really, really nice.


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## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

Borrelli is pseudo-Neapolitan - be forewarned that the real thing will be different (and, in imo, better). Sabino, a Neapolitan tailor, visits NYC 4 times a year. I have no idea how good he is.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Eustace Tilley said:


> Borrelli is pseudo-Neapolitan - be forewarned that the real thing will be different (and, in imo, better). Sabino, a Neapolitan tailor, visits NYC 4 times a year. I have no idea how good he is.


I think, in a way, good 'Neapolitan' shouldn't be so obviously 'Neapolitan'. It should just be a well-made suit, often with lots of hand-sewing, that fits really well. I suppose softness is somewhat requisite. But if you try too hard to incorporate supposedly 'Neapolitan' features, you wind up with a pastiche.

Amongst the best dressed men in Naples, it's hard to identify consistent styling cues and many on this forum would probably criticize them for being 'incorrect' in some trifling way. What I _can_ say from my own observations is that, in general, their colors and patterns are conservative, and they always look very comfortable and natural in their suits.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Not to encourage you to drop your hard-earned dollars at Kiton, but are their jackets really that structured?

Apart from A&S (who send reps to NYC twice a year), several of their alumni have independent practices. I like Steven Hitchcock in many applications, and Edwin DeBoise at Steed is a nice guy whose style you might prefer. Both visit the States more often than A&S, and charge a bit less.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

^^ Yeah, I was also confused by the comment about Kiton being more structured than Borrelli. 

In addition to the A&S alum you listed, there's also Thomas Mahon. People seem to love his work.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

mafoofan;670968In addition to the A&S alum you listed said:


> He has one jacketmaker who will use no padding whatever, except for a little wadding at the sleevehead.
> 
> At the moment, however, he is not taking on new clients.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Concordia said:


> At the moment, however, he is not taking on new clients.


I thought someone had recently posted on one of the forums about getting an appointment as a new client. Perhaps if you're persuasive or desperate enough it can make a difference.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Always best to check directly, or read his blog for current status ( www.englishcut.com ). One never knows, does one?


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Concordia said:


> Always best to check directly, or read his blog for current status ( www.englishcut.com ). One never knows, does one?


No, one doesn't. Tailors don't exactly tend to run the tightest businesses.

However, if the OP is in no rush, I would still strongly suggest Rubinacci. My personal bias aside, it doesn't get more 'Neapolitan' than that. A&S is soft, but different--less round and curvy from what I've seen.


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## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

mafoofan said:


> I think, in a way, good 'Neapolitan' shouldn't be so obviously 'Neapolitan'.


Fair enough - I agree with you that the final measure has to be how the resulting garment looks. But when I think of a Neapolitan suit I think of a coat with drape, a little padding in the shoulder, and a low waist. And of course, a soft canvas. My point was that Borrelli is really a bastardized version of such a cut that has been revamped for the American market. The real Neapolitan suit is just a better looking one than the Borrelli approximation.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Eustace Tilley said:


> Fair enough - I agree with you that the final measure has to be how the resulting garment looks. But when I think of a Neapolitan suit I think of a coat with drape, a little padding in the shoulder, and a low waist. And of course, a soft canvas. My point was that Borrelli is really a bastardized version of such a cut that has been revamped for the American market. The real Neapolitan suit is just a better looking one than the Borrelli approximation.


Oh, I didn't mean to disagree with you with regard to Borrelli. I was just adding my own commentary for the sake of the OP, since he's looking for something 'Neapolitan'.

Whatever you call it, what I've seen of Borrelli's jackets I don't like. The shoulders always appear over-square, the collar too low, and the chest far too lean.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Eustace Tilley said:


> Borrelli is pseudo-Neapolitan - be forewarned that the real thing will be different (and, in imo, better). Sabino, a Neapolitan tailor, visits NYC 4 times a year. I have no idea how good he is.


IMO, Sabino is no good. If you want to see what his suits look like, there are some on The Sartorialist, or you can go to the Italian restaurant next to Kiton in NY (name slips my mind). The owner wears them. His cut is closer to Borrelli in that it is kind of square in the shoulders.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

iammatt said:


> IMO, Sabino is no good. If you want to see what his suits look like, there are some on The Sartorialist, or you can go to the Italian restaurant next to Kiton in NY (name slips my mind). The owner wears them. His cut is closer to Borrelli in that it is kind of square in the shoulders.


Is it only the fit and cut of Sabino you don't like, or the quality as well?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> Is it only the fit and cut of Sabino you don't like, or the quality as well?


Did you go into PrimoPianoItalia when you were in Naples? If so, that is his typical cut. It is pretty pimpy looking.

The work is on par with Kiton or Borrelli.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

iammatt said:


> Did you go into PrimoPianoItalia when you were in Naples? If so, that is his typical cut. It is pretty pimpy looking.
> 
> The work is on par with Kiton or Borrelli.


PrimoPianoItalia? Nope, didn't. Should I next time? Pimpy's not good.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> PrimoPianoItalia? Nope, didn't. Should I next time? Pimpy's not good.


Scafora sells his goods out of there. It is like home base for that group of travelling Neapolitans. I generally go in, but I am generally looking for things to do after a couple of days in Naples. You see when you go in that it is what it is.

Scafora's shoes are nice, although not necessarily the ones on display.


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## phaedo (Dec 11, 2007)

*more specifics*

Thanks to all for responses. M. Fan -- your blog has been a source of inspiration on this.

I realize that Borrelli is a bastardized Neapolitan cut. It has shoulder pads, among other things. However, A little shoulder padding might be useful for me, given that my shoulders slope rather a lot. It helps bring the finished result to moderation.

A key feature for me is the opening at the bottom of the jacket. In my ignorance, I have no idea what this is called. I want a smooth line from the gorge through the button and curving open around the waist (like a morning coat). This cut is beautifully shown in Fan's Rubinacci fitting. Does the A&S soft jacket have this effect?

Fan -- can you send me some pricing data on Rubinacci?

Thanks to all!


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## phaedo (Dec 11, 2007)

*Oops*

Fan - I had missed the pricing data in your first post. Thanks for that!


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

phaedo said:


> I realize that Borrelli is a bastardized Neapolitan cut. It has shoulder pads, among other things. However, A little shoulder padding might be useful for me, given that my shoulders slope rather a lot. It helps bring the finished result to moderation.
> 
> A key feature for me is the opening at the bottom of the jacket. In my ignorance, I have no idea what this is called. I want a smooth line from the gorge through the button and curving open around the waist (like a morning coat). This cut is beautifully shown in Fan's Rubinacci fitting. Does the A&S soft jacket have this effect?


You're referring to the jacket's quarters. Open quarters will look like mine; the lower front quarters of the jacket are spread apart. Closed quarters have little or no spread between. I can't speak to what A&S typically does, but you can always stipulate what you want.

I'm not a believer in unnatural jacket shoulders, no matter the shape of the wearer. Some people might be able to wear squared shoulders better than others, but I think a natural line always looks better. Others will disagree, but I think natural shoulders should be the default option when ordering bespoke; padding shoulders to shape them distinctly different from the wearer's natural form seems like cheating when the primary goal of bespoke should be to make _you_ look _your_ best.


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## sam (Sep 5, 2004)

What about NY tailors Nicolosi, Ragussa, Raphael and Shattuck? Would their style be considered Neopolitan? Another A&S style option in NY would be Cheo.


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## alebrady (Oct 14, 2004)

mafoofan said:


> ...padding shoulders to shape them distinctly different from the wearer's natural form seems like cheating when the primary goal of bespoke should be to make _you_ look _your_ best.


dont mean to be offensive because this is clearly a matter of aesthetic preference but i am curious about your logic. If the goal is to make you look your best, why should the suit adhere or conform to the lines of one's own body if one's body is not in and of itself flattering? shouldnt an ideal suit de-emphasize 'flaws' while emphasizing good traits of ones own body? It doesnt seem like shoulders should be different than other parts of the body that get emphasis (or lack of emphasis) through cut - albeit, shoulders also can be an area that aesthetics or idealized notions of a cut can most clearly be realized.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

alebrady said:


> dont mean to be offensive because this is clearly a matter of aesthetic preference but i am curious about your logic. If the goal is to make you look your best, why should the suit adhere or conform to the lines of one's own body if one's body is not in and of itself flattering? shouldnt an ideal suit de-emphasize 'flaws' while emphasizing good traits of ones own body? It doesnt seem like shoulders should be different than other parts of the body that get emphasis (or lack of emphasis) through cut - albeit, shoulders also can be an area that aesthetics or idealized notions of a cut can most clearly be realized.


I think the two schools of thought would be that a suit should make you look perfect, or that it should make you look like you, but really good. I go for the second, but have no issues with the first.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

alebrady said:


> dont mean to be offensive because this is clearly a matter of aesthetic preference but i am curious about your logic. If the goal is to make you look your best, why should the suit adhere or conform to the lines of one's own body if one's body is not in and of itself flattering? shouldnt an ideal suit de-emphasize 'flaws' while emphasizing good traits of ones own body? It doesnt seem like shoulders should be different than other parts of the body that get emphasis (or lack of emphasis) through cut - albeit, shoulders also can be an area that aesthetics or idealized notions of a cut can most clearly be realized.


First of all, I don't think shoulders can really be 'flawed' due to their slope, or lack thereof. That's to say, I don't find square shoulders any more flattering than sloped ones. Second, even _if_ squarer shoulders are more flattering, squarer jacket shoulders tend not to make the _wearer's_ shoulders look any more square. It always looks artificial.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> First of all, I don't think shoulders can really be 'flawed' due to their slope, or lack thereof. That's to say, I don't find square shoulders any more flattering than sloped ones. Second, even _if_ squarer shoulders are more flattering, squarer jacket shoulders tend not to make the _wearer's_ shoulders look any more square. It always looks artificial.


I have to say, I've seen more than a few guys wearing very natural shouldered suits when they shouldn't. Guys with extremely sloped shoulders, for example, don't benefit from the cut, IMO. Build the suit to suit your build, I say.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

DocHolliday said:


> I have to say, I've seen more than a few guys wearing very natural shouldered suits when they shouldn't. Guys with extremely sloped shoulders, for example, don't benefit from the cut, IMO. Build the suit to suit your build, I say.


I remember there was a photo of some guy on the Sartorialist in a tan or brown suit, and he was heavily criticized for wearing a suit that showed his very sloped shoulders and large head. I thought he looked great.

I mean, say you've got girly shoulders and a humongous noggin. Nothing's going to change that in any meaningful way. You're better off presenting your own eccentricities as elegantly as possible.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

The OP said he'd go to Savile Row. There he can see Rubinacci more easily than he could in NY, or visit A&S. Though he should be careful not to call A&S Neapolitan to their faces.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Will said:


> Though he should be careful not to call A&S Neapolitan to their faces.


Yeah, I can't imagine that going over really well, but I'd love to be there to see what happens.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> Yeah, I can't imagine that going over really well, but I'd love to be there to see what happens.


Maybe, if you are lucky, that report will come on the same day as the yellow and black stripe dress shirt pics.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

iammatt said:


> Maybe, if you are lucky, that report will come on the same day as the yellow and black stripe dress shirt pics.


_Best internet-men's-clothing-forum day *ever*_.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> I remember there was a photo of some guy on the Sartorialist in a tan or brown suit, and he was heavily criticized for wearing a suit that showed his very sloped shoulders and large head. I thought he looked great.
> 
> I mean, say you've got girly shoulders and a humongous noggin. Nothing's going to change that in any meaningful way. You're better off presenting your own eccentricities as elegantly as possible.


Tastes vary, of course, and I can only speak to my own. But I'm always wary of blanket statements about this type of thing. I don't think every guy should opt for minimal shoulder padding any more than I think every guy should wear flat-front trousers. If everyone looked best in clothing with the same attributes, there'd be a lot less need for bespoke.

I generally agree with you, though, that less is more, and I tend to prefer natural shoulders myself. But, at the same time, I also like a strong military cut, and I think there's room for both to co-exist happily.


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## vijay toke (Oct 31, 2004)

Another option you may want to consider is Stephen Kempson in New York. I have never used or even met Mr. Kempson, but my understanding is that he works with an English tailor located in England, which makes a structured, English jacket, and with a company called La Vera Sartoria Napoletana, which supposedly makes a more neopolitan coat (though, having not seen a coat from the company, I cannot say for certain). Perhaps others have had more experience with Mr. Kempson and/or La Vera Sartoria Napoletana.

I mention this out of a vague recollection of the details of Mr. Kempson's business. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of those details. I only raise Mr. Kempson as another possibility for the OP to think about. Perhaps others can chime in on whether this might be a viable option for the OP.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> However, if the OP is in no rush, I would still strongly suggest Rubinacci. My personal bias aside, it doesn't get more 'Neapolitan' than that. A&S is soft, but different--less round and curvy from what I've seen.


Having seen a couple of Rubinacci coats in person, and comparing them to my Mahon jackets, it's striking to see how two tailoring styles descended from the same place (Scholte drape) can be so different and valid.

If my jackets are at all representative of A&S, I agree that the English style is more linear with a cleaner chest. The drape is carried under the arms and behind, while Rubinacci has it more in the chest --- you can see on some of Iammatt's photos the undulations of the cloth on the sleeve and chest. I think this makes for a really beautiful, expressive coat that's quite unlike anything else out there, whereas the Mahon is completely understated, plain, and not something you'd look at twice. It's kind of the stereotypical Italian-English aesthetic difference. If I were ever to use a different tailor, Rubinacci would be it.

Borrelli, even the MTM stuff with the supposed spalla camicia, is stiff and ungainly compared to Rubinacci. There really isn't any comparison. I'd look at the Zegna cardigan model instead if you want soft RTW. It doesn't approach bespoke by any means, but they're reliable and easily accessible without being gimmicky.

--Andre


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> _Best internet-men's-clothing-forum day *ever*_.


I missed it. What are you talking about.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

dopey said:


> I missed it. What are you talking about.


https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=76943


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Andre Yew said:


> Borrelli, even the MTM stuff with the supposed spalla camicia, is stiff and ungainly compared to Rubinacci. There really isn't any comparison. I'd look at the Zegna cardigan model instead if you want soft RTW. It doesn't approach bespoke by any means, but they're reliable and easily accessible without being gimmicky.


Agreed on the issues with Borrelli MTM. What do you think of Castangia jackets? I think they're quite nice, and very soft--particularly for RTW/MTM. None of the stiffness that you see in stuff from Borrelli.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

I have never been to Naples, so I don't pretend to be an expert on what well dressed Neopolitan men wear, but I would venture a guess that Rubinacci is not the perfect examplar of the Neopolitan style. Uppercase, who posts on the London Lounge, had several suits and sportcoats made by a variety of Neopolitan tailors (and A&S) and posted photos of the results. One thing that is obvious is that there is no one clear Neopolitan style. Another thing that was obvious is that Rubinacci is much closer to some of the English tailoring styles than it is to the other Neopolitan houses. If you really want to understand the range of Neopolitan styles, ask Iammatt nicely. To my knowledge, he is really the only discussing this here who has spent much time in Naples (a few days' visit does not an authority make). And he has also been doing this for a few years, so he has some perspective. You should probably also look for the Uppercase threads on the London Lounge.

If you like Matt's Rubinacci clothes, you can get something pretty similar from Raphael in New York, though not exactly the same. And I wouldn't try starting on that with him right away or you will drive each other nuts and likely fail. First figure out what he does, on you, then when you order the next one, you can tell him how you want it shaped differently.


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

Battistoni is Roman,not Neopolitan. I have a jacket from Battistoni,
purchased at Barney's about 4 years ago. It does have natural 
shoulders. However, Battistoni/Barney models I have seen in Barney's
LA, have a more defined shoulder line a la Borelli. Perhaps the
NY store which carries more suits has additional models.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> Agreed on the issues with Borrelli MTM. What do you think of Castangia jackets? I think they're quite nice, and very soft--particularly for RTW/MTM. None of the stiffness that you see in stuff from Borrelli.


I've not seen Castangia jackets, so I can't comment. It sounds like a interesting brand for OP to check out, though.

However, I do know that bumblebees aren't supposed to be able to fly either, but they friggin' do anyway! So stop oppressing them and telling them they can't be wearing the fugly paisley ties. 

--Andre


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

comrade said:


> Battistoni is Roman,not Neopolitan. I have a jacket from Battistoni,
> purchased at Barney's about 4 years ago. It does have natural
> shoulders. However, Battistoni/Barney models I have seen in Barney's
> LA, have a more defined shoulder line a la Borelli. Perhaps the
> NY store which carries more suits has additional models.


I'm aware that Battistoni is Roman, not Neapolitan; however, Castangia is Sardinian, not Roman. My only point was that if the OP wants a soft, natural-shouldered Italian jacket, Castangia is an option.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

dopey said:


> I have never been to Naples, so I don't pretend to be an expert on what well dressed Neopolitan men wear, but I would venture a guess that Rubinacci is not the perfect examplar of the Neopolitan style. Uppercase, who posts on the London Lounge, had several suits and sportcoats made by a variety of Neopolitan tailors (and A&S) and posted photos of the results. One thing that is obvious is that there is no one clear Neopolitan style. Another thing that was obvious is that Rubinacci is much closer to some of the English tailoring styles than it is to the other Neopolitan houses. If you really want to understand the range of Neopolitan styles, ask Iammatt nicely. He is really the only one who has spent much time in Naples (a few days' visit does not an authority make), to my knowledge, discussing this here. And he has also been doing this for a few years, so he has some perspective. You should probably also look for the Uppercase threads on the London Lounge.


I never claimed to be an authority or that anybody should believe everything I say wholesale. I'm merely reporting on what I've seen and what my opinions are. You've edited your post, but it originally stated that this thread was full of misinformation. I don't believe I've misinformed anybody here, and if I have, I'm more than happy to be corrected!

I distinctly indicated why it's silly to identify a list of features that distinguish a Neapolitan suit. Even a couple of days in Naples teaches you that. However, there's no doubt that the city has a strong tradition of tailoring. That's why I said that, if anything, well-dressed Neapolitan men are distinguished by the way they wear their clothes moreso than exactly what they wear.

There probably is no 'perfect examplar' of Neapolitan tailoring in the way you seem to mean; as you've pointed out, it's hard to lock down the physical features common to all Neapolitan tailoring in the first place. However, Rubinacci _is_ the progenitor of fine tailoring in Naples and captures many of the more intangible features that people often associate with 'Neapolitan' suits: softness, lightness, comfort, movement, etc.



> If you like Matt's Rubinacci clothes, you can get something pretty similar from Raphael in New York, though not exactly the same. And I wouldn't try starting on that with him right away or you will drive each other nuts and likely fail. First figure out what he does, on you, then when you order the next one, you can tell him how you want it shaped differently.


I'm wary of this kind of approach. It's not like the first suit doesn't cost anything, and afterward, you have to gamble on the tailor's ability to adapt. To a degree, this is always true, but you'll save on costs if you start with the tailor who cuts closest to your desired cut in the first place.


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## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

I think manton had mentioned on the LL that Raphael did a great job making him a super-soft, unpadded coat.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> I never claimed to be an authority or that anybody should believe everything I say wholesale. I'm merely reporting on what I've seen and what my opinions are. You've edited your post, but it originally stated that this thread was full of misinformation. I don't believe I've misinformed anybody here, and if I have, I'm more than happy to be corrected!


I had edited my post, long before you responded, in the hope that you wouldn't get defensive. I naively thought I had a chance of success.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

dopey said:


> I had edited my post, long before you responded, in the hope that you wouldn't get defensive. I naively thought I had a chance of success.


It's just bizarre to criticize someone's observations for lack of experience by comparing them to your own observations, which are based on even _less_ experience.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> I never claimed to be an authority or that anybody should believe everything I say wholesale. I'm merely reporting on what I've seen and what my opinions are. You've edited your post, but it originally stated that this thread was full of misinformation. I don't believe I've misinformed anybody here, and if I have, I'm more than happy to be corrected!
> 
> I distinctly indicated why it's silly to identify a list of features that distinguish a Neapolitan suit. Even a couple of days in Naples teaches you that. However, there's no doubt that the city has a strong tradition of tailoring. That's why I said that, if anything, well-dressed Neapolitan men are distinguished by the way they wear their clothes moreso than exactly what they wear.
> 
> ...


What is Raphael's last name?

Or, if Raphael is the guy's last name, then what is Raphael's first name?


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## brioni007 (Dec 3, 2007)

*Neopolitan*

I happen to think that lucano Barbera is a nice Neapolitan expression. You could purchase a bespoke suit form a Neapolitan tailor (Gennaro Solito) 
Via Toledo, 256
80134 Naples
39 081 414 095

The price range is from 2500 to 3700


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

Will said:


> The OP said he'd go to Savile Row. There he can see Rubinacci more easily than he could in NY, or visit A&S. Though he should be careful not to call A&S Neapolitan to their faces.


 Yes Rubinacci is on savile Row. BTW, I called Rubinacci in May to find out what a bespoke suit costs and they told me 3500 euros to start. At todays exchange rate you are well over $5000.00.

I also agree regarding the info on Battistone. I have purchased 3 rtw suits from Barneys made with the Battistone label 4 jackets and recently had Mr. Battistone make up a MTM suit at the trunk show in sept. They fit perfect. the MTM cost $4500 because of the fabric I picked but they start at $3500.

As Doc said earlier. If you go bespoke because you like soft shoulder but it really is not designed for your build then you are paying alot of $$ for something that you shouldn't be wearing. I would go bespoke to have the expertise of a master tailor make a suit that fits my particular build accentuating the best parts and suppressing the worst.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Tonyp said:


> Yes Rubinacci is on savile Row.  BTW, I called Rubinacci in May to find out what a bespoke suit costs and they told me 3500 euros to start. At todays exchange rate you are well over $5000.00.
> 
> ...
> 
> I would go bespoke to have the expertise of a master tailor make a suit that fits my particular build accentuating the best parts and suppressing the worst.


$5,000 is in line with the rest of Savile Row, or New York, bespoke these days.

I think it's incorrect to think that a "master tailor" is going to make a suit for a man's particular build (especially the only man I know that bills himself as a master tailor- all he'll do is steal your money). A tailor is going to apply his house style to your body. If one of your shoulders is lower than the other, he'll fix that, but within his context of a structured coat or a soft one.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

brioni007 said:


> I happen to think that lucano Barbera is a nice Neapolitan expression. You could purchase a bespoke suit form a Neapolitan tailor (Gennaro Solito)
> Via Toledo, 256
> 80134 Naples
> 39 081 414 095
> ...


If Solito charges you that much, you have been taken to the cleaners and not a tailor!

His work is pretty good, certainly one of the better ones in Naples. I wouldn't say that it is really terrific, but certainly not bad.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

iammatt said:


> If Solito charges you that much, you have been taken to the cleaners and not a tailor!
> 
> His work is pretty good, certainly one of the better ones in Naples. I wouldn't say that it is really terrific, but certainly not bad.


Matt, out of curiosity, in terms of quality, which tailors in Naples inhabit the range between Solito and Rubinacci?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> Matt, out of curiosity, in terms of quality, which tailors in Naples inhabit the range between Solito and Rubinacci?


IMO, Panico is between the two, although some people feel he is the best. I would also say that Formosa is in that range. Another whom people think highly of is Pirozzi, but I have only seen pictures and from them his stuff looks bad to me.

I have not seen any suits or jackets that I felt really compared favorably with Rubinacci, but I am biased.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

mafoofan said:


> From what I understand, Chris Despos is interested in making soft jackets in the typical Neapolitan fashion, but I don't have any direct knowledge of his work.


The jackets that Chris has made for me have certainly been soft (no shoulder padding, soft canvas, etc.), but I don't know that I would call them Neapolitan. But he is curious and creative, and it would be typical of him to give Neapolitan a whirl with a willing client.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

https://www.sartoriasabino.it/root sito/flash/main.htm


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

https://www.sartoriapanico.com/main.php?lingua=en

Lovely overcoats. Very Neapolitan-looking suits.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

https://www.sartoriasolito.com/photogallery.asp

I saw one of his DB suits in a photo that looked quite stunning. His 3B jackets look promising.


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

Audi S5 TC said:


> What is Raphael's last name?
> 
> Or, if Raphael is the guy's last name, then what is Raphael's first name?


Raphael Raffaelli (sp may be wrong for the last name)

Best tailor Ive ever come across.


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## phaedo (Dec 11, 2007)

*Anderson & Sheppard*

Matt tells me A&S are "Softer and tighter" than Rubinacci -- and indeed I can imagine this. But I'd love to see a few good pics.

Any links?

Thanks

p.s., This has been a wonderfully educational thread!


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

phaedo said:


> Matt tells me A&S are "Softer and tighter" than Rubinacci -- and indeed I can imagine this. But I'd love to see a few good pics.
> 
> Any links?
> 
> ...


Other way around. Rubinacci will be slightly tighter and softer than A&S with likely a shorter jacket and narrower pants.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Here you can see A&S and Rubinacci - Milan, among others. I think it's a very interesting thread:

Some articles last year about 510 Madison had Raphael's last name as Schwartz. But I've heard Rafaelli more often on the forum.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Wouldn't be the first Ralphael to have adopted a stage name. Says nothing about his undoubtedly high skill.


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## uppercase (Apr 19, 2004)

All of this talk of Naples and Neapolitan tailoring has got my juices going again, encouraging me to take another trip there for a sartorial adventure. 

Naples is a virtual Disneyland for bespoke aficionados; you will easily find 20 tailors who will gladly outfit you in true Neapolitan style and panache. You will buy every accessory in sight because it is so irresistible and blow your 3 years' clothing budget in 10 days. You will gain 15 pounds feasting on the finest Italian cuisine and pastries and consume countless bottles of strong Campagna red wine every night with your newfound Italian best buds while lamenting the state of the world, women’s perfidy and all manner of problems big and small, in complete understanding and brotherhood. The most beautiful, nubile girls in Italy will break your heart one hundred times a day just because they are so exquisite and so inaccessible. 

Ofcourse, you first have to pay your dues and make your bones to go bespoke in Naples. Are you truly ready for Naples?

I was chatting with an American girl just the other day on the London’s Heathrow Express who had just completed a tour of Italy, which she loved, though she warned me direly, as her smile changed to a frown and she looked at me with grave insistence, advising that I should never, ever, under any circumstances, go near Naples. Poor thing had been mugged and robbed 3 times during her brief stay in Naples. Her passport was stolen on her last day there putting a crimp in her travel plans. Oh well. Another Neapolitan war story. 

I cannot wait to go back myself. And to go for what? A suit? Who would be so foolish? You will be, once you’ve been to Naples. 

For better or worse, and despite the occasional body lying in the street, often the result of an unsatisfactorily resolved discussion with the Camorra, in Naples, you will experience Italy at its grittiest, most raw, and most splendid if you are up for a true urban adventure. 

The city and people will confound you, you may be seduced or repelled, ripped off or rewarded. Most leave disappointed, a very few, enchanted. You will not be indifferent. 

In Naples, you will find the best dressed men in Italy in heartbreakingly rendered sartorial masterpieces. You will shout for joy when you spy the occasional Neapolitan gentlemen strolling the streets, each detail of his dress a revelation, an inspiration, seemingly touched by the sartorial gods. But beware, you can buy the clothes but you can never wear them. As a Neapolitan would. 

You will love your tailor, your shirt maker, your boot maker; they will become your life long friends and lifeline, confessors and protectors. They will seduce you with their sartorial dreams, their enthusiasm and charm. Suspend your beliefs and critical, analytical, fusty old selves for a moment and allow yourself to participate in the reverie of what they are creating for you. You are now in the hands of a Neapolitan master. They create dreams. But as every experienced man knows, even sweet dreams can be disrupted by the occasional nightmare. 

You will leave Naples, and most do make it out, a transformed man. Naples weaves its magic like a spider its web. In ten days, your tailor will determine your sartorial fate and imprint you with a lifelong love affair with Neapolitan style. 

My bet is that, if you were lucky enough to get to Naples, you will return. If only to continue chasing the dream.


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## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

uppercase,

Your post on Neapolitan bespoke over at LL has been one of my favorities. Could you please tell us how long you spent in Naples to run through the requisite fittings with the various tailors?


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Andre,

I feel like I've seen you praise Rubinacci's approach / silhouette / style more often than Mahon's. But since you're a client of only the latter , I'd guess that you prefer Mahon. I'd be interested to hear how you made the choice.

(I don't mean that combatively at all - you've obviously thought about it and I'm just interested in what draws you to Mahon over Rubinacci.)



Andre Yew said:


> Having seen a couple of Rubinacci coats in person, and comparing them to my Mahon jackets, it's striking to see how two tailoring styles descended from the same place (Scholte drape) can be so different and valid.
> 
> If my jackets are at all representative of A&S, I agree that the English style is more linear with a cleaner chest. The drape is carried under the arms and behind, while Rubinacci has it more in the chest --- you can see on some of Iammatt's photos the undulations of the cloth on the sleeve and chest. I think this makes for a really beautiful, expressive coat that's quite unlike anything else out there, whereas the Mahon is completely understated, plain, and not something you'd look at twice. It's kind of the stereotypical Italian-English aesthetic difference. If I were ever to use a different tailor, Rubinacci would be it.
> 
> ...


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

Cantabrigian said:


> I feel like I've seen you praise Rubinacci's approach / silhouette / style more often than Mahon's. But since you're a client of only the latter , I'd guess that you prefer Mahon. I'd be interested to hear how you made the choice.


That's funny, because that's what I was thinking when I wrote that post! For me, picking Mahon was easy because he was more easily accessible, whereas I would have to travel to Naples for Rubinacci, and I had liked what I had seen of the A&S style. I also hadn't seen a Rubinacci in real life until after I started with Mahon. This is going to sound cheesy, but I still remember the first time I saw a Rubinacci in person--- it is a really striking piece of work that screams bespoke in all the right ways. The pictures posted don't do them any justice, but that's probably true for any fine piece of bespoke clothing.

I'll continue working with Mahon because I think we have a good relationship, and understand each other. I think he's got my pattern down right, and I've really liked what he's made for me, and am looking forward to the 3 or 4 pieces I have in the pipeline. It's probably easier for me to praise R. because I see it on other people, and I don't really stare at myself in the mirror all that much.

R.'s also so different than what I've got so it's easier for me to point out the differences I appreciate. What I've got from Mahon feels like that reliable, old sweater you throw on everyday that you barely think about, because it feels like it's just a part of your regular self. And I think, for some people, that's the highest praise of all.

--Andre


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## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

My advice to the OP: Save epiphanies for the realm of philosophy, literature and religion. True epiphanies are rare in men's clothing, probably misplaced as well. Too often, men discover a look that they seize upon and rationalize ex post facto why it is just right for them. Sometimes it leads them to overreach and declaim universal principles of dress - like natural shoulders always look better on everyone. 

The truth is indeed more nuanced than that rather gross oversimplification. In fact I would argue that there are only multiple, conditional truths in dressing well. For instance, a slim man with normal posture and fairly normal (half square) shoulders will look good in more than one shoulder treatment. According to my research, he will look advantageous in a Savile Row suit as well as a Neapolitan suit. Clearly, he will look different in each case but good in both. I think I can make that judgment since I have suits in both styles. 

But in your case, I would be a little careful of your newfound epiphany. Experience and the march of time survive longer than a moment of fancy. I'm not sure how old you are but let me ask you this: Do you think natural shoulders will be just right for you 50 years from now? Actually I'm not sure you would look advantageous today with a natural shoulder suit. Hard to say anything definitive of course without a photo. But good luck with your bespoke journey.


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## phaedo (Dec 11, 2007)

erasmus -- your wisdom is appreciated. I am lucky enough to have a friend to temper my epiphanies. The two of us are neophytes, but with at least some sense of style. He is the one who pushed me in the neapolitan direction after we stumbled on the Borrelli by complete accident. It took me a few days until I finally realized he was, I think, right.

You asked how old I was? A tender 27. Perhaps young for neapolitan -- but I'm an academic, so I'm after a softer, more intellectual look.

Implicit in your message is that you could gaze upon me and advise as to what cuts might work best. Here you are.


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## uppercase (Apr 19, 2004)

Neapolitan suits in action; Clark Gable, Vittorio De Sica.










 (start at minute 4:13)


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> Rubinacci visits NYC every now and then. If travel to Naples is truly impossible, then I'd wait to see Mariano or Luca at the Carlyle. A suit will start at around $4800, jackets at $3800 or so. I wouldn't even consider Borrellii or Kiton for those prices. Why buy MTM when you can get bespoke with much better quality construction for the same price?
> 
> If you just want soft, it doesn't have to be 'Neapolitan'--whatever that's come to mean. A&S does a soft jacket, but that's just what they typically do. It's not fair to say they do a 'Neapolitan' jacket, particularly since A&S came first.
> 
> ...


According to the Rubinacci website, Mariano Rubinacci has a shop in New York City, NY, unless, of course, that is a discrepancy.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

uppercase said:


> Neapolitan suits in action; Clark Gable, Vittorio De Sica.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This one is superb.


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## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

Eustace Tilley said:


> I think manton had mentioned on the LL that Raphael did a great job making him a super-soft, unpadded coat.


As he has done for me now on two occasions. Without getting into comparatives or superlatives, Raph is amazing tailor and I can't see getting a suit from anyone else while he's still willing to make them for me.


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## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

phaedo said:


> erasmus -- your wisdom is appreciated. I am lucky enough to have a friend to temper my epiphanies. The two of us are neophytes, but with at least some sense of style. He is the one who pushed me in the neapolitan direction after we stumbled on the Borrelli by complete accident. It took me a few days until I finally realized he was, I think, right.
> 
> You asked how old I was? A tender 27. Perhaps young for neapolitan -- but I'm an academic, so I'm after a softer, more intellectual look.
> 
> Implicit in your message is that you could gaze upon me and advise as to what cuts might work best. Here you are.


I think your friend is probably right but it's also good to realize that not every problem has just one solution. The good news is that you appear to have a lean frame that gives you more than one option. From what I can tell, your shoulders are not as severely sloped as I had imagined and look close enough to being half-square. So I think you'd be fine with a range of Savile Row cuts from A&S up to Kilgour as well as the Neapolitans like Rubinacci. These cuts also have a subtle roundedness in the chest that will fill out your torso nicely.

One thing to watch out for is that it looks like you have a fairly noticeable dropped left shoulder though it might be the angle of the photos and the way you are standing.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Audi S5 TC said:


> According to the Rubinacci website, Mariano Rubinacci has a shop in New York City, NY, unless, of course, that is a discrepancy.


He only sold neckties there last I knew.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Will said:


> He only sold neckties there last I knew.


Pocket squares and scarves too, IIRC.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

iammatt said:


> Pocket squares and scarves too, IIRC.


But no silk necklaces or pocket triangles? What a rip... :icon_smile_wink:


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## uppercase (Apr 19, 2004)

Matt, did you visit with Panico or Formosa in Naples? 

How would you describe their styles, product quality and customer satisfaction? 

Panico, I gather, does alot of business in Japan. Can you work with him without speaking Italian? Do you know if he cuts himself or just supervises?

How about the tiemaker.....C... (I can't remember his name); do you like his product more than the famous Marinellas? How about Matuozzo's ties....nice?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

uppercase said:


> Matt, did you visit with Panico or Formosa in Naples?
> 
> How would you describe their styles, product quality and customer satisfaction?
> 
> ...


I did not visit Panico, but I met a few of his clients. His style is not unlike Mariano's, but it is a bit less draped, and looks a little stiffer, even if it probably is not. The clients I met were very satisfied, and by the look of the way their clothes fit, they had every right to be. I believe he speaks no English, but he might have somebody around (a daughter?) who does.

I did visit Formosa. His stuff is also very nice, but the fit is slightly skimpy. The lapels run very large.

Cappelli makes great ties and the service is better, faster and cheaper than Marinella. Marinella's are nice, but I don't like the experience. Anna's ties are also nice, but I find only a small portion of her silks that I like. She prefers wovens, I prefer prints. I don't think any of the ties in Naples are as nice as R., but as you know, they are a bit particular in construction and dimension.


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## uppercase (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanks.

Who would you be tempted to try in Naples other than Rubinacci?

Any pics of your Cappellis?


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## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

iammatt said:


> Marinella's are nice, but I don't like the experience.


Can you please comment on what you didn't like about the Marinella experience?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

uppercase said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Who would you be tempted to try in Naples other than Rubinacci?
> 
> Any pics of your Cappellis?


I'm not really tempted to change. The process of getting it right is best done once . If pushed to I would probably go to Formosa and ask him to make me something similar to what he makes for Sig. Cappelli.

Unfortunately, I can't find the pics on my computer.



Eustace Tilley said:


> Can you please comment on what you didn't like about the Marinella experience?


I don't like waiting in line, and I am no fan of big crowds.


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## Montesquieu (Dec 3, 2007)

If you get a chance, try the Marinella experience at their Milan store. It's totally different than in Naples. The floor is huge, the lines are nonexistent, and you are likely to get the 1:1 help from a salesperson for as long as you want. They make selection of a personal tie from an uncut silk square particularly enjoyable. 

I left frustrated and empty handed after my first visit to the Naples closet. I left 1.5 hours later with a handful of ties (plus others to-be-constructed) and pocket squares from the Milan store. The latter was my favorite tie purchase experience ever.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

The ties I like are what LSeca wears. Don't know where he gets them.

Wish he would post here at Ask Andy.


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## timeless (Mar 29, 2005)

phaedo said:


> Thanks to all for responses. M. Fan -- your blog has been a source of inspiration on this.
> 
> I realize that Borrelli is a bastardized Neapolitan cut. It has shoulder pads, among other things. However, A little shoulder padding might be useful for me, given that my shoulders slope rather a lot. It helps bring the finished result to moderation.
> 
> ...


I find that many people on this forum tend to overgeneralize about the style and cut of certain makers i.e. that all Borrelli suits have squared off shoulders with too much padding. I own more than a dozen Borrelli suits many of which have soft shoulders with absolutely no padding and an elegant gather at the sleevehead...others have somewhat more padding but not one is what I would call heavily padded. Borrelli makes many models so I would not delete them from your list of possibilities.


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## GITU (Mar 12, 2009)

iammatt said:


> IMO, Panico is between the two, although some people feel he is the best. I would also say that Formosa is in that range. Another whom people think highly of is Pirozzi, but I have only seen pictures and from them his stuff looks bad to me.
> 
> I have not seen any suits or jackets that I felt really compared favorably with Rubinacci, but I am biased.


Do you have contact information for Formosa and Panico (Panico's website is down)? I don't speak Italian, will that limit my experience if I travel to Napoli to visit Formosa or Panico?


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

I wonder what especially the Neopolitans do that others can't or won't do. I ask this because if you are in London then why not see Andrew Ramroop. He has a lot of hand work and the essential quality is supposed to be softness. But I am not sure whether you will get spalla camicia etc, etc ( I really am no expert on this). He is a great one to talk to.


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## Scott Hill (Jun 9, 2009)

I am in the bespoke made to measure business and produce clothing from two of the factories you mentioned. I particularly like the softer Neapolitan shoulders of my made to measure product. I work with Sartoria Partenopea for soft shoulder suits and jackets and have a shirt sleeve model; both constructed , unlined and french faced like the Borrelli garment. 

I sell their suits; made to measure for between $2850 and $3450; and cashmere jackets in the $2650 range to $3250 for worsted cashmere. 

I am coming to New York for a client or two between the 8-11th of this month, (September) and you can contact me for an appointment; if you would like to see my Neapolitan offering. I am a stylist; as well as a made to measure gent; and also offer hand made dress and sport shirts, 7 fold ties, fine guage knitwear and benchmade shoes. I usually visit my clients homes or offices; but you may also come to an atelier office on 12th street and I can present the collection at that location. 

I can be reached through the "Ask Andy" website. Scott - you can also visit Andy's forum on "The Scott Hill Experience". if you do a search on Andy's forum; you will find a re cap and link to some photos of Andy and myself selecting a Fall grouping for his wardrobe.


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## Scott Hill (Jun 9, 2009)

In reponding to your comments about Luigi Borrelli clothing, I have to agree and disagree. What you see hanging in many American stores , is a Borrelli model that is a bit generic and not an authentic Neapolitan sholder or sleeve head attachment.. This is because many American retailers do not feel confident to presnet a true Neapolitan shoulder. They have a difficult time explaining the subtle imperfections to a completely hand made garment; as most Americans are used to a clean Brioni type expression and feel hand made, expensive suits should be perfect. True Neapolitan suits mold to the body and take on the form of the wearer. The canvas and construction is super light and when you wear a Neapolitan garment; it can be slim and trace the body, without restriction of movement. You hardly know you are wearing a jacket. 

This is primarily due to the sleeve head attachment and the higher armhole. Although they have a different feel than a Brioni suit; the difference is in the sleeve and shoulder. Borrelli offers many different models and bodies on their offering. The model, the gentleman is referring to, is a completly unlined cardigan construction that has the very most authentic Neapolitan shoulder. It is used by Borrelli merchants; primarily as a sport coat model; but I also make suits from this model and they are superb. 

They Borrelli clothing that is carried in most shops relates more to Brioni than Kiton; but the other models are there... just most merchants in the country, buy the more generic model that I agree, is not very Neapolitan. 

I am not in the Borrelli business; but I wished to clarify in the factory's defence. It's not the product; but the buyer from the retail shop. 

I am in the made to measure, made to order business and represent (nearly exclusively) Neapolitan makers. I coordinate a complete wardrobe package and travel throughout the U.S. to provide wardrobing to my clientel. I also provide bench made shoes, hand made dress and sport shirts, 7 and 9 fold neckwear and fine gage cashmere sweaters and knitwear from southern italy's top makers. It is a completely coordinated collection and is superb. 

I will be in New York after Labor Day from the 8th of September to the 11th; conducting final fittings for three clients in New York City. If you would like to see some truly authentic Neapolitan coordinates from my collection; I can be reached through the "Ask Andy" website. I come to my client's homes or office and you can also visit me in a New York atelier office on 12th street, during my visit. 

You can also go on the "Ask Andy" forum site and search "The Scott Hill Experience" and you will see a posting from Andy Gilchrist; who I visited last week for Fall 09. There are some nice photos of our visit posted; so you can see first hand the experience of this coordinated presentation. 

Scott Hill / Scott Hill Bespoke Designs


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