# Most Useful Languages Besides English?



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

for a person being born today to learn as a second and third language?


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> Java.
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> ...


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## mussel (Oct 19, 2004)

Chinese and Spanish as second & third or vice versa.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

What a good question.

When mom and dad have two first languages the answer is easy. In our case we live most of the time in Denver so baby Samantha will speak English as her first language and Thai as her second language.
As her third language we are thinking about Chinese, with French or Italian as her fourth language.

Another good question is at what age should a second or third language be taught?

Here is her photograph, as a brand new father (for the first time) I could not resist:





David Hober

Custom Made/Bespoke Neckties, Pocket Squares & Scarves


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## m kielty (Dec 22, 2005)

Mandarin and Spanish.

mk


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> for a person being born today to learn as a second and third language?


Although I wish I could say French (since that is my second language), the honest answer for someone born in the United States is Spanish followed by Mandarin Chinese.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

To the list of Spanish and Mandarin, I would add Japanese, Russian, and/or Arabic.


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## mgnov (Jan 11, 2006)

First, Arabic. Second, Spanish (if you live in the S/W United States).


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

A lot of people in my generation learned Vietnamese.It's great if your in a Little Saigon convenience store.I tell my arabic speaking nephew to sell his ability now. In 30 years it will be good for yemeni owned foster freeze icecream stands in Bakersfield. Bilingual is PC for spanish in California. I speak the patois called spanglish. Irony is, the one time I needed good spanish it was useless. I found a stray cow wandering the lemon groves. I necktied her and began heading home on horseback. I felt a 'presence' behind me, not unlike the reconnaissance of a coyote or lion. Spun my horse and suprised a little mexican kid. Problem was he was mixtec and spoke virtually no spanish or english! It turns out his family were 'living' in a filthy abandoned chicken ranch and she was their milk cow, feeding on weeds in the orchards. I learned gaelic early,which is good for shutting up neo wiccans ( a saxon word) who think it's somehow magikal and ego boosting to speak. I'm learning romanian for my G/F and thank the anglican fathers for hammering a little latin into my skull. Most 'uselsess' is my odd position as the sole fluent speaker of a California indian dialect.I studied with one of 3 remaining tribal members recording their mythology, personal memories and learning the tongue. It's secure in some climate controlled vault, a 'dead' language. Whenever I find myself in their former lands I speak it outloud, in case their ancestor spirits or the land is listening.Most usefull language? Anything to wire the brain early for the day you find one of need to learn. Qu'eetza Na'shay; n' la a pee !


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by mulberrywood_
> 
> What a good question.
> 
> Another good question is at what age should a second or third language be taught?


Around first grade.

One of the dumbest things we do in this country is wait until kids are adults in a cognitive sense, then chuck them into a foreign language. If you get them early learning is fun, not a chore.

Same goes for math.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

And if you play music math and language come easy! Western classical and gamelon


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by mgnov_
> 
> First, Arabic. Second, Spanish (if you live in the S/W United States)


May I ask where you live?


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
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Where do you live? Where I live, all kids in all school districts learn Spanish beginning in the second grade.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

I speak English as my primary language...although in my line of work, I find that my ability to speak Spanish (Carribean Dialect) is a big help...I also speak Italian (Southern Dialect)...which is not really all that useful, unless I take a date to an Italian restaurant and want to impress her...or when I'm talking with my friends and we want to talk about something in public that may be private or whatever...I'm slowly but surely trying to learn French...would also like to pick up German one of these days...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

From a business view I would probably now put Mandarin Chinese forward as an important language since business and manufacturing links are obviously really taking off there, but let's not forget that _braille_ as a 'language' is equally as important anywhere in the world.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

The most potentially useful language for the 21st century is probably Chinese. However, there's a case to be made for learning one or more of the very many languages threatened by extinction. Every language is a different window on the world, and if only for that reason, should be preserved.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

Mulberrywood - Cute kid. I can't really answer your question all that well, but I know that the UN International School* here in NYC starts kids on a new language around 1st grade and 7th grade. So if the little one already knew English and Thai, she'd get #3 just as she started school and #4 in middle school. 

CT

*I only know this because I was recently talking with a parent of a girl in this school and I know it's supposed to be pretty good.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Italian enables one to understand opera, read Machiavelli in the original, and talk to tailors. What more does any man need?


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## johnapril (Feb 8, 2006)

Learn how to cuss in dinosaur and you'll be a hit at parties.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Yiddish... so expressive.


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## johnapril (Feb 8, 2006)

So this t-rex is like, rarr, and apotasaurus is all, rooar, and triceratops is totally, wwuoa.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I think for most Americans Spanish is the obvious answer. For business purposes someone might have a specialized need such as Japanese or Mandarin. One might also suggest Hindi for the future, but the languages of India are so diverse English is usually your best bet for nationwide use unless your activity is confined to a certain part of the country.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> I think for most Americans Spanish is the obvious answer. For business purposes someone might have a specialized need such as Japanese or Mandarin. One might also suggest Hindi for the future, but the languages of India are so diverse English is usually your best bet for nationwide use unless your activity is confined to a certain part of the country.


Yes...remember that English is one of the standard languages of India and is spoken very well by the majority of educated people there.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Teacher_
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hindi is one of the least useful second languages in the world. not only do all of the people you would probrably encounter in india speak English - it is not certain that they will speak hindi. hindi is only one of the many, many languages of india. even pure hindi changes with the region and the caste of the speaker, so speaking a little bit of hindi probrably won't help you either with doing business or with communicating on the street.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
> 
> Mulberrywood - Cute kid. I can't really answer your question all that well, but I know that the UN International School* here in NYC starts kids on a new language around 1st grade and 7th grade. So if the little one already knew English and Thai, she'd get #3 just as she started school and #4 in middle school.
> CT *I only know this because I was recently talking with a parent of a girl in this school and I know it's supposed to be pretty good.


Thank you CT.

Patrick06790 also suggests around 1st grade. That sounds about right for me. Noina used to be a math teacher so we will get her going early in that area also.

David Hober

Custom Made/Bespoke Neckties, Pocket Squares & Scarves


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> I think for most Americans Spanish is the obvious answer. For business purposes someone might have a specialized need such as Japanese or Mandarin. One might also suggest Hindi for the future, but the languages of India are so diverse English is usually your best bet for nationwide use unless your activity is confined to a certain part of the country.


Alan,

You are right, Hindi *might *be important in the future. Have you noticed the trend away from English in city names? Bombay and Madras seem to be names of the past. Not as bad though as the French view of English....

When I was living in India as a boy speaking Hindi opened up many doors to adventures that the average American would not experience.

What about your favorite language, Telegu? How have the lessons been going? I take it you are conversational by now?

David Hober

Custom Made/Bespoke Neckties, Pocket Squares & Scarves


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by mulberrywood_
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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by manton_
> 
> Italian enables one to understand opera, read Machiavelli in the original, and talk to tailors. What more does any man need?


Found an interestingly titled vintage penguin paperback the other day:

*The New Machiavelli* _by H G Wells_


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I am fascinated by Sir Richard Francis Burton. Among his multiple talents, learning languages seemed almost a casual pursuit. The man would totally immerse himself in the culture and memorise words daily in no mean quantity. He sems to have required @ 6 weeks to be fairly fluent. Naturally, his career was often blunted by social mores over ability. A few 'ruffian Dick's or 'that white N*****,' as he was called today and Bin Laden would be very nervous indeed. Burton was the formost swordsman of his day, and could give him a lesson in cutting off body parts for Al jezera[}]


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

Classical Sanskrit.

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

I have a moderate grasp on Irish, and a moderate/advanced working of Latin.

Both are, essentially, currently useless for me.

I'm considering Italian, though!

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"In summer I sleep under a white ermine cover and in winter, under sable."--Karl Lagerfeld, the one and only.


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## GentleCheetah (Oct 17, 2005)

Mandarin Chinese, partly for practical purposes and partly to acquire a very different way of looking at the world.

The Gentle Cheetah


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by mulberrywood_
> 
> What about your favorite language, Telegu? How have the lessons been going? I take it you are conversational by now?


[:I]

Let's just say I need to refocus my efforts.

I'm scheduled to travel back to India in July, flying into Bombay then to Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderabad then back out via Bombay. My friend just got back from a trip. [jealous] He not only got to visit Shillong, but also went to Delhi and down to see the Taj.[/jealous]


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
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Alan,

get ready to get wet - you are hitting monsoon season. but with that, I am jealous, I haven't been in 4 years and I miss it.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

David, what a beauty.



> quote:_Originally posted by mulberrywood_
> 
> What a good question.
> 
> ...


guit


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

A certain Father Rooney who was a priest in my boyhood parish once told me in all seriousness that God only spoke Latin and Gaelic - if true one would be advised to purchase a Wheelock's Latin and enroll in a crash course at Trinity. But its probable that God also speaks Hebrew and Italian and I would wager Finnish and Hungarian bc so they are so hard to learn!

Karl


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Gents,
> 
> ...


Does proficiency in both make me the holiest man alive?[}]

-----------------------------
"In summer I sleep under a white ermine cover and in winter, under sable."--Karl Lagerfeld, the one and only.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> 
> > quote:_Originally posted by mulberrywood_
> ...


Telegu is so hard to learn because of the vowel sounds. If you have time you should visit some villages. With luck you will see some silk weavers.

David Hober

Custom Made/Bespoke Neckties, Pocket Squares & Scarves


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by guitone_
> 
> David, what a beauty.
> 
> ...


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Speaking the Gaelic is easy. Pick up a copy of Flan O'Brian's THE POOR MOUTH for the secret.


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## Siggy (Jan 14, 2006)

I suppose you should first define "most useful" and the answer will also depend on your location. If I live in Alcace France, the most useful second language would be German. Here in the US, Spanish is probably the most useful. Unfortunately, Spanish is taking over in certain areas. Because of the huge emerging market in China, Mandarin Chinese is going to be the most important language after English for global business. I still believe that French is important. If not for business reasons, then because of its rich history in literature and culture and since it is still spoken in several European and African countries and Canada, and because French speakers usually cannot speak English well at all.


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

I agree that usefuleness will depend on one's location and ultimate purpose for learning the language i.e. business transactions, communicating with family members...

My wife and I, both francophone from Montreal, speak to our children primarily in French given that we live in Toronto. My 3 yr old is pretty bilingual already. English, I believe, need not be learned as intently as it will be picked up by virtue of living in an anglophone world. 

French is very useful for learning other Latin languages like Spanish, Italian and Portugese to some extent. If one is even slightly linguistically inclined, these can be picked up fairly easily. 

I have also started to teach my son some Hebrew given that it's the third language I know. We have family in Israel (mom, aunt, sister-in-law, cousins...) so it's also useful. 

That said, you can define usefuleness as simply the most spoken languages in the world. In which case, the choices would be Chinese, Spanish and Arabic. 

As far as age for teaching children, my answer is: AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. It is an unfortunate fallacy that children need to learn languages sequentially and master one before moving on to the other. Children can learn two, even three, languages simultaneously.


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## bobbyball (Jul 20, 2005)

Judging by some of our youth and celebrity mutterings, English would be a good second language!! (If not first!!!)

Joking apart, I am brushing up on German at the moment. I did it at school, but like most things, my abilities deteriorated due to lack of use.


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## Roy_h (May 11, 2005)

Everybody should be speaking Dutch of course!

But the most useful languages for me are French and German. I'm brushing up on those languages again since in the near future a lot of my business will be with either german or french suppliers.

I'd also love to learn Spanish. I have take a few lessons in Arabic and it's not as hard as it seems to be, it's not easy either but I expected it to be worse. I'd love to learn Arabic since it's fast becoming a very important language.


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## rick lombardo (Mar 4, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by manton_
> 
> Italian enables one to understand opera, read Machiavelli in the original, and talk to tailors. What more does any man need?


And impress the ladies.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by EL72_
> That said, you can define usefuleness as simply the most spoken languages in the world. In which case, the choices would be Chinese, Spanish and Arabic.


Even in that case, you have differences depending on whether you are speaking number of people speaking (Mandarin Chinese, Hindi) or geographical reach (French, Arabic, Spanish, Cantonese).


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Ã‰tienne_
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Most spoken language would refer to the number of people speaking it (not necessarily as a first language though). Geographical reach, if by that you mean the number of different countries in which a language is spoken and their land surface, seems like a rather pointless measure of usefuleness. Canada is an enormous English/French speaking country but we are only 30 million people.

That said, I think a far more nuanced operationalization of usefuleness would be to weight the number of people speaking the language by income or per capita GDP. English would be first I think but which language would come in second based on this measurement?


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## Siggy (Jan 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by EL72_
> That said, I think a far more nuanced operationalization of usefuleness...


Well, before I learn more languages I might have to brush up on my English 'cause I don't know words like "operationalization" yet!


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

It depends what "useful" means. I would argue .

Aus_MD


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## HitMan009 (Nov 13, 2003)

I get for the most part what everyone here, different views are. In my own view and probably in most practical(i.e business) terms, a person with global reach should know in order of importance.

1)English
2)Mandarin Chinese
3)A toss up Japanese or Spanish

I would argue for French too because it is the most beautiful and still widely used but in isolated areas. The refinement of French is not matched by any other language but that refinement also makes it difficult to learn in some cases. French people love their language and there is a reason for it... It's purpose to begin with is to sound great but also extremely discriptive when used as intended.

Cantonese Chinese because the majority of overseas chinese are of this origin. Cantonese chinese are very adamant about keeping it for the most part and two major point of entry to Asia use it, Hong Kong and Sinapore. But alas the reach of cantonese is decreasing as mainland and taiwan chinese are expanding their reach around the globe. Considered to be closest to ancient spoken chinese.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by EL72_
> Geographical reach, if by that you mean the number of different countries in which a language is spoken and their land surface, seems like a rather pointless measure of usefuleness.


I was more arguing, subjectively, on the problem of "how many times am I likely to need said language in travel". If you don't travel for business, chances are you will spread your travels almost equally among countries. That is to say, you might travel, say once in Canada and twice in China before you consider you have your fill and move to other countries. It is unlikely you would consider China to warrant 400 times more trips than Canada. To take another example: most people would make 2 or 3 trips to mainland China but would not hesitate to make 3 or 4 for Latin America even if there are more people in China. The diversity of countries makes for a more diverse experience.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

It also depends what you can do with it. I find that there are two business applications for languages - logistics, basically getting around, and then negotiations. 

you need truly superior language skills to negotiate in a language. I believe, although of course I have no evidence to this, that the vast majority of born americans who say that they speak a forign language don't speak well enough to negotiate in that language. 

on the other hand, the vast majority of people who do business internationally speak english well enough to negotiate. 

in terms of "logistics" - what you really need is to be able to speak enough to talk to a waiter, a cab driver, a hotel clerk. in the countries where these people speak english (for instance, india and holland) learning the language has little value. spanish, arabic, manderin, do, specially because you have a good chance of running into people who do not speak English. 

having a good latin base, and some understanding of german is helpful, because between the two you should be able to understand most signs in Europe.


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## Wimsey (Jan 28, 2006)

I think - and this sort of ties into globetrotter's point - when you talk about most useful language, you need to focus on how much time you are going to put into the language. If you're talking about a couple of years of language in HS, with perhaps 4 semesters or so in college, you won't achieve a level of fluency that would be truly useful for business purposes because so many international businesspeople speak English so well. It would be *helpful*, of course, in the sense that you could get around more easily in the target country...but the people you are dealing with in that country will speak English much better than you do.

If this is the case, (and for the vast majority of Americans who have any familiarity with a foreign language it is), you are probably best off with Spanish and another European language like French or German (unless you have a cultural connection to another language, of course). Spanish because it is useful in the US, where a lot of spanish speaker speak no English, and a European language because, statistically, that's most likely where you will end up travelling. 

Now if you are talking about really learning a language to the level where you can negotiate in it (to use globetrotter's phrase), well, things are more complicated. First of all, there is a lot more committment required - maybe 3-4 years in high school, plus a summer in the country, plus a major or strong minor in the language at college, plus a year spent living in the country. For related languages (say French and Spanish), you can achieve a good fluency in both with a little extra work (say a French major, a Spanish minor, and a summer in Spain to complement the junior year abroad in France).

It is, of course, much more difficult if you are learning a non-indo-european language like Chinese, not only because it is less familiar grammatically and orthographically, but also because it is much harder to have the opportunity to learn the language in depth. Not many high schools offer any chinese language courses. Not many colleges offer chinese majors, and there are far fewer junior year abroad in china programs than, say, in France.

And of course, all of this effort complicates learning whatever technical skills you are going to use to make your living, of course.

But let's say you're smart and lucky and have a chinese major, spent a year in china, have a spanish minor and spent a semester in Spain, and were also able to have a double major in business, where you obtained a job related to international trade.

And then they send you to supervise construcction of their new plant in Poland, or Thailand, or Holland, or the Czech republic, or Malaysia or Korea...

It's kind of a crap-shoot, really, for English speakers. 

However - if you speak a foreign language pretty well and have lived in another country, it will be much easier for you to pick up Polish, say, while you're living there, and you will feel much more comfortable living in that country, which may open up possibilities that you wouldn't have had if you hadn't studied any languages to begin with.

So I think, really, it's not that productive trying to determine *which* language will be most useful - you'll be in a much better situation if you just pick one you find interesting, learn that one, and try to spend an extended amount of time in that country.


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Siggy_
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_Operationalization is the process of converting concepts into specific observable behaviors that a researcher can measure. For example, when a researcher wants to measure the anger of a certain person, then that person can operationalize the concept of anger by measuring whether the person speaks louder than normal._

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operationalization


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Ã‰tienne_
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I see your point now - a good one too. So would you simply count the number of countries where a language is spoken and perhaps weight by the size of the country?


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by EL72_
> So would you simply count the number of countries where a language is spoken and perhaps weight by the size of the country?


I you want to formalize the rather subjective measure I was using, that would be a good start, I think (of course the size of the country is not exactly equivalent to how diverse and interesting trips there will be, but it's a good proxy).

Case in point: I am going to MontrÃ©al in a few months (for leisure), and I am starting to brush up on my language skills to communicate with the locals


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Ã‰tienne_
> 
> Case in point: I am going to MontrÃ©al in a few months (for leisure), and I am starting to brush up on my language skills to communicate with the locals


If you need to brush up on your Quebecois, let me know. I even teach my 3yr old son (who happens to be vey good with languages) how to speak the French Canadian dialect.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I rate French pretty high.

If your kid wants to work for the UN, NATO, a variety of NGOs, or in wide swaths of Africa, then French is useful. Also good for romancing...

Chinese, sure I guess that would be good too if your kid wants to go into intelligence or business.

I think the need for them to learn Spanish is overrated.

---------------------


Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

Latin. You can learn several other languages much more easily once you've conquered this one.


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## Joseph Casazza (Aug 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by NewYorkBuck_
> 
> Latin. You can learn several other languages much more easily once you've conquered this one.


Well, yes and no. All of my degrees are in Classics (Latin and Greek), and I started fairly early (at about 8, but that is not nearly early enough for it to have made a major difference) and, yes, Italian, French, Spanish all came much more easily for me thereafter. But I have also had colleagues (I was a teacher for many years, and head of a foreign language department) who were quite good at multiple modern Romance langages without a word of Latin. And I had not too much trouble with learning German, for which Latin was a very minor kind of preparation, so I am guessing there is far more "natura" in the ease with which I have learned various languages, and singling out the Latin is rather like "post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning.

The problem is, one should start learning a second, or third, or fourth language VERY early, but who knows what will be useful to you at that age? Now, if you live in Mexico or Central or South America, you might be well advised to start your kid on English as soon as s/he can speak, if you intend to have them make the now quite common journey north. I'm not so sure I, in the United States, would have my kids start on Spanish that young, however, unless I lived in a border area, and could guarantee that their lives would be spent doing business with the neighbors to the south or with illegal immigrants.

Yes, China, India, Russia, Japan, are all either crowded with people, resources, markets, wealth or potential wealth, etc. Can you guarantee that your kid at two will be dealing with any of them in a foreign language when s/he is older? You could roll the dice - one for Spanish, two for Chinese, three for Hindi, four for Russian, five for Japanese, six for all of the above, and likely have as much chance of being correct. And if you are wrong, your kid will just be saying in adulthood, "well, I learned X when I was a kid; what a waste of time!" So maybe Latin is as good a choice as any.


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## Fyvieghost (Mar 9, 2006)

I would say Pig Latin is quite important if one is to speak to another on the sly.

"It's always fun until someone gets hurt"


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## Joseph Casazza (Aug 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Fyvieghost_
> 
> I would say Pig Latin is quite important if one is to speak to another on the sly.
> 
> "It's always fun until someone gets hurt"


Only in non-Muslim countries! And definitely NOT in Israel!


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## Wimsey (Jan 28, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Joseph Casazza_
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This is my experience as well - there is nothing intrinsic to latin that makes additional languages any easier to learn than would be the case if one learned a modern european language instead of latin.


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