# What Car Do You Covet?



## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Kav wants a Morgan, sans termites.

Me, even more than a DB5... www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-1955-Buick-Roadmaster-Jay-Leno.htm ....Laissez les Bon Temps Roulez!

A big ol' 'murican tank


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

In BRG, flatface grill and RHD.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Nice old Buick, jamgood.

I've always wanted a SAAB 99 turbo. Someday I will buy one and completely restore it.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

I've always wanted an Aston Martin DB6.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)




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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I just want my old 1972 Dodge Challenger RT back. I'm finally at the age, when the insurance would be affordable!


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

jackmccullough said:


>


Jack, if that is a Smart car, be careful. Consumer Reports did not give it a good writeup.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

1972 Mercedes 280 SL convertible, blue with tan interior. :icon_smile:


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

A 67 Corvette coupe with 427, three deuces, 4 speed. Any color is fine.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


>


LOL, some can never miss the chance to make a political statement. I do not know why an attorney, at your stage in your career Jack, has to settle for just covetting a rather modestly priced car.

Me? Venom tuned Viper please. Or the S Class AMG.


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

Caterham CSR with a tweaked Cosworth engine, an one of the few honest sports cars:


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> I just want my old 1972 Dodge Challenger RT back. I'm finally at the age, when the insurance would be affordable!


When I was stationed at Parris Island SC in 1970 I used to do weekend commutes with this Marine who had a 1970 Challenger with the 340 "Six Pack". The agreement was use his car and I pay the gas. Man did that thing suck down the gas. Even at 30 cents a gallon a trip of any length wasn't cheap.

Another time I needed to go to Atlanta one weekend and a friend on base let me use his car, a 396 Chevelle SS. I didn't think I was going to have enough cash on me to buy enough gas to get back.

I guess the current gas prices have got me wondering about our cars of old. :icon_smile_big:

As to what I covet, from what I'm reading about the new Nissan GT-R I think I want one.

https://imageshack.us

Cruiser


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

^ Wild looking ride. Those exhaust cannisters scare me though. Looking at how that sits, I just keep thinking about skin grafts on someone's calf from getting in or out!


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

KenR said:


> Jack, if that is a Smart car, be careful. Consumer Reports did not give it a good writeup.


It is indeed, Ken, thanks. I'm not saying I'm likely to get one--as cool as it looks, even with the kids out of the house I don't think it's too practical to get a car without a back seat.


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

Tommy Kaira ZZII
basically a full-blown race car that happens to be street legal.
So few were made that finding one for sale, much less affording it, will be a challenge.

more info at:
https://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Tommy_Kaira/2001/ZZII/


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

*Facel Vega*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facel_Vega


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

VW Phaeton (under-rated); any current model Bentley (highly covetted and for good reason); and a 1957 Corvette.


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> VW Phaeton (under-rated); any current model Bentley (highly covetted and for good reason); and a 1957 Corvette.


The VW Phaeton should be pretty easy and cheap to get...that thing laid an egg!


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

*As a motorbiker, I no longer see cars as covetable, but*

The Ariel Atom or the more practical Lotus Exige. A bit flashy, but worth the unwanted attention...well except from the law...








(scales are different)


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> The VW Phaeton should be pretty easy and cheap to get...that thing laid an egg!


Think that you can get into a 2006 (I think last year in the US) for about 50-60k.

https://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/Pr...5742|0|0|&Condition=Excellent&QuizConditions=


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Aston Martin DBS


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> Think that you can get into a 2006 (I think last year in the US) for about 50-60k.
> 
> https://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/Pr...5742|0|0|&Condition=Excellent&QuizConditions=


I wouldn't spend 30K on that much less 50-60K! For a 2006, you could probably get an Audi A8 for around the same price or less and I would consider that a FAR superior car.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> I wouldn't spend 30K on that much less 50-60K! For a 2006, you could probably get an Audi A8 for around the same price or less and I would consider that a FAR superior car.


Neither turns my cranks, so one less person you will have to bid against


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> Neither turns my cranks, so one less person you will have to bid against


Ha! I am not going to be bidding on anything...I am not a fan of the Phaeton and I would be afraid to buy an A8 used unless I knew the complete history and personally knew the person it came from...


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## cowboyjack (May 18, 2008)

Shelby AC Cobra with the 427. Open top, classic English styling, Shelby blue with the white stripe, 4 on the floor, ungodly torque and horsepower.

And a good fiberglass replicar of said same with a 351 Cleveland or a full built 289 so that I can actually afford to REALLY drive the thing without morbid fear of totaling a $400k car.

And a 2001 Ford F350 Crew Cab 4x4 Dually with a custom installed Cummins turbo diesel turned up to about 700 ft. lbs. of torque with a Brian's Truck Shop modified automatic automatic...(Not like I have ever actually thought about this, eh?)... Just for running down to the Quicky Mart... or towing the horse trailer with custom living quarters, as long as we are going to dream big.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

cowboyjack said:


> Shelby AC Cobra with the 427. Open top, classic English styling, Shelby blue with the white stripe, ungodly torque and horsepower.
> 
> And a good fiberglass replicar of said same with a 351 Cleveland or a full built 289 so that I can actually afford to REALLY drive the thing without morbid fear of totaling a $400k car.


I was actually just looking at one of the replicas.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> I wouldn't spend 30K on that much less 50-60K! For a 2006, you could probably get an Audi A8 for around the same price or less and I would consider that a FAR superior car.


How do you know which is the superior car? Sadly, like the person who posted the phaeton as being one of his 3 choices indicated, the car didn't get its due praise. The Phaeton is better than any of the cars in its class aside from its VW badge even though "badge whores" like a couple of my neighbors paid $180K+ for practically the same car but with a different name plate (Bentley Continental/Flying Spur.) :icon_smile_big:

Least I forget, I own both a W12 Phaeton and an Audi A8L. Now to the car I covet, that would be the Bugatti Veyron.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> The VW Phaeton should be pretty easy and cheap to get...that thing laid an egg!


You're right. It sure did.
Except with people who know cars.


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

Asterix said:


> How do you know which is the superior car? Sadly, like the person who posted the phaeton as being one of his 3 choices indicated, the car is understated. The Phaeton is better than any of the cars in its class aside from its VW badge even though "badge whores" like a couple of my neighbors paid $180K+ for practically the same car but with a different name plate (Bentley Continental/Flying Spur.) :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Least I forget, I own both an W12 Phaeton and an Audi A8L. Now to the car I covert, that would be the Bugatti Veyron.


Ok, educate me...


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Asterix said:


> How do you know which is the superior car? Sadly, like the person who posted the phaeton as being one of his 3 choices indicated, the car is understated. The Phaeton is better than any of the cars in its class aside from its VW badge even though "badge whores" like a couple of my neighbors paid $180K+ for practically the same car but with a different name plate (Bentley Continental/Flying Spur.) :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Least I forget, I own both an W12 Phaeton and an Audi A8L. Now to the car I covert, that would be the Bugatti Veyron.


Thanks Asterix. I always thought the A8 was a very fine car, but that the Phaeton was at least as good but under-rated. Admittedly, if I owned both, I'd sure covet the Bugatti!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> You're right. It sure did.
> Except with people who know cars.


Heh, I knew that was coming. :icon_smile_big:


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> You're right. It sure did.
> Except with people who know cars.


Yeah, but how many of those are there?


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

An old, chunky Mercedes sedan. Basically a big granny car.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Jack, Does Howard know you swiped a Pathmark cart?


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

cowboyjack said:


> Shelby AC Cobra with the 427. Open top, classic English styling, Shelby blue with the white stripe, 4 on the floor, ungodly torque and horsepower.
> 
> And a good fiberglass replicar of said same with a 351 Cleveland or a full built 289 so that I can actually afford to REALLY drive the thing without morbid fear of totaling a $400k car.


www.superformance.com



And for me, a 1940 Packard Darrin 180 Convertible


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> Ok, educate me...


Would be honored to but the best way to appreciate the car would be to have you actually drive one and I can guarantee that you'd be singing a different song like I now do :icon_smile:

In 2004 when the car was brought into the States, I thought it was the most stupid idea VW could ever come up with considering that fact that they already had the A8L as one of their premium cars but after researching the car, I placed an order for one without even test driving it and today I can proudly and honestly say it is the best luxury car I've ever owned South of $100K. The Phaeton is also the only hand built car in its class and price range but sadly VW of A didn't do a good job of enlightening the public of the masterpiece it had in its hands besides the fact that the dealer network was pathetic as they didn't know how to serve clients shopping for cars between 70K and 100K.

I wish this discussion had come up before the 7th of June I would have invited you to the Chicagoland Phaeton Owners GTG.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Heh, I knew that was coming. :icon_smile_big:


Trouble maker. :icon_smile_big:



ksinc said:


> Yeah, but how many of those are there?


I'd say about 3200+ strong. Now we (Phaeton Phraternity) are trying to find the mysterious person who was able to import a 2008 edition into the US. If anyone knows him, please tell him we are dying to meet him. :icon_smile:


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I like the SuperPerformance ones. I've been looking at this BackDraft one and also a Factory Five.





I'm going to owe myself a new toy soon! :icon_smile_big:


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

A couple of years ago I was leisurely cruising down a section of the Natchez Trace Parkway on my Harley-Davidson when I rounded a curve only to be confronted by a huge pack of menacing looking cars coming toward me. As about 30 or so of them roared by I realized that they were all Dodge Vipers. Turns out there was some kind of Viper gathering going on nearby, but it was certainly a shock to see them all coming toward me in a pack. Made me want a Viper. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Asterix said:


> Now to the car I covert, that would be the Bugatti Veyron.


Wow, you really do know your cars! I had to Google that up! LOL Pretty car!


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

Asterix said:


> Would be honored to but the best way to appreciate the car would be to have you actually drive one and I can guarantee that you'd be singing a different song like I now do :icon_smile:
> 
> In 2004 when the car was brought into the States, I thought it was the most stupid idea VW could ever come up with considering that fact that they already had the A8L as one of their premium cars but after researching the car, I placed an order for one without even test driving it and today I can proudly and honestly say it is the best luxury car I've ever owned South of $100K. The Phaeton is also the only hand built car in its class and price range but sadly VW of A didn't do a good job of enlightening the public of the masterpiece it had in its hands besides the fact that the dealer network was pathetic as they didn't know how to serve clients shopping for cars between 70K and 100K.
> 
> I wish this discussion had come up before the 7th of June I would have invited you to the Chicagoland Phaeton Owners GTG.


Ok...fair enough...my initial impression was pretty much why would anyone spend that kind of money for a VW...don't get me wrong, I love VW's but I love them for what I think of them as - a reasonably/rather inexpensively priced European...I would take a VW over a Honda, Toyota, Nissan etc hands down...but when shopping for a "luxury" priced car, I suppose I have been somewhat of a "name brand snob"......since you are singing the praises of this car and I haven't driven it, give me a couple of weeks to track one down...price wise, I am comparing this to a BMW 7 and an Audi A8...now I know from a performance standpoint I should be comparing to a BMW 760 and an Audi A8L W12 - correct? Anything I should be looking for specifically that is going to knock my socks off on this test drive or is the whole purpose of this to say that the Phaeton performance compares to the 12 while the price is thousands cheaper?


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> Ok...fair enough...my initial impression was pretty much why would anyone spend that kind of money for a VW...don't get me wrong, I love VW's but I love them for what I think of them as - a reasonably/rather inexpensively priced European...I would take a VW over a Honda, Toyota, Nissan etc hands down...but when shopping for a "luxury" priced car, I suppose I have been somewhat of a "name brand snob"......since you are singing the praises of this car and I haven't driven it, give me a couple of weeks to track one down...price wise, I am comparing this to a BMW 7 and an Audi A8...now I know from a performance standpoint I should be comparing to a BMW 760 and an Audi A8L W12 - correct? Anything I should be looking for specifically that is going to knock my socks off on this test drive or is the whole purpose of this to say that the Phaeton performance compares to the 12 while the price is thousands cheaper?


Your initial response is what most people who heard about the car thought/said....... "a premium priced VW car?" but people seem to forget that the 3 top German manufacturers (and the imitation luxobarge - Lexus :icon_smile_big have all gone up or down the social/financial spectrum of car manufacturing.

In comparison, the Phaeton V8 (priced at about $65K to $75K) is in the class of the A8L 4.2, BMW 745/750 and Benz 500/550 while the W12 Phaeton (Priced at about $90K to $115K) is in the class of the A8L W12 (the initial car I wanted to buy before I saw the light.......... the Phaeton :icon_smile: ) and the BMW 760.

Visit this site ( ) and I know there would be a few people there who would be ecstatic to give you the car to experience first hand the masterpiece Ferdinand Peich had built.

People seem to forget that the VW is the parent company of Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley (and somewhat Porsche) so the Phaeton is a hybrid product of the best parts/brains of those car companies.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Thanks, Asterix, for your supportive and informative posts. I have actually seriously considered buying a used (excuse me, "pre-owned" ;-)) Phaeton. Last I looked they were reasonably priced notwithstanding their relatively few number. In fact, I imagine their limited numbers could possibly give them collector-appeal some day. But I haven't pulled the trigger just yet. I own an 89 BMW 325i and a 97 MB E320, both in near mint condition. As much as I enjoy cars, I'm too practical (and insufficiently wealthy) to treat them as supplies rather than capital assets. Instead I'm a holder. But I maintain fastiduously and the cars look tip-top. I have received countless offers on the 325 by folks at gas stations and in parking lots, but I figure she has another good 10 years in her at least. German engines are expensive to repair, and they do need repair from time to time, but they are made to last a very long time. As you know 250K is nothing for those engines if they are properly serviced.
All that said, I still think the Phaeton may be a bargain in the aftermarket, and I may pull the trigger yet. Let me know if I should favor any particular year and if you think the W12 is worth the premium. 
Cheers,
Mike


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

I'd have to say I'm lucky enough to already have the car I covet:










A 1991 Mercedes S Class.

Of course, I do have a soft spot for its replacement, the W140 series


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## bjorn240 (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm a technical editor for a car magazine and a contributor to the auto section of one of America's largest daily newspapers. And I raced cars for 10 years.

Why all the bonafides... well, because I thought the Phaeton was a pretty uninspiring lump. It's a good car, but the interior trim fit was only so-so, and a number of them had windscreens with a substantial visual distortion. And the design was bland enough to warrant taking a pass(at).

That said, they're a steal now.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

bjorn240 said:


> I'm a technical editor for a car magazine and a contributor to the auto section of one of America's largest daily newspapers. And I raced cars for 10 years.


So have you had an opportunity to take a look, or better yet a drive, in the Nissan GT-R? I see where Motor Trend dyno'd it at 507 hp.

Cruiser


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

bjorn240 said:


> I'm a technical editor for a car magazine and a contributor to the auto section of one of America's largest daily newspapers. And I raced cars for 10 years.
> 
> Why all the bonafides... well, because I thought the Phaeton was a pretty uninspiring lump. It's a good car, but the interior trim fit was only so-so, and a number of them had windscreens with a substantial visual distortion. And the design was bland enough to warrant taking a pass(at).
> 
> That said, they're a steal now.


For someone who claims to have all the knowledge/experience you listed, you don't seem (IMO) to know anything about the fit & finish of the interior of a Phaeton or just don't like the car which is fine. Granted there are some minor annoyances about the placement of certain things like the door controls for the windows but overall, fit and finish is superb. VW & Audi have been rated by most of the world's top auto magazines continuously as having the best interiors in comparison to all the other cars in most of their various class levels but like any other car maker, they have the occasional goofs in the VW line. The Phaeton caters to the class of people who desire the rich sumptuous country club feel and interior (muted with tons of wood) while the Audi is for the folks who want the upscale contemporary but tastefully minimalist interior. The only negatives any well versed gearhead had/has against the Phaeton was/is its badge (in relation to its price) and the exterior which for some was not "exciting."


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

bjorn240 said:


> And the design was bland enough to warrant taking a pass(at)


I think the design is, to many of those on this forum at least, part of the charm of the Phaeton. It's nice enough, classic understated styling, unlike the new BMWs or Mercedes that scream LOOK AT ME I'M RICH LOOK AT MEEEEE. The design of almost all of the new BMWs is, IMO, just atrocious.

My bona fides: I've worked for a tier 3 electronics supplier, and currently work for a software company with products used by dozens of car companies and their suppliers. Almost everyone I know works in some capacity for a car company, either building or designing them. My wife is a third generation engineer (my father-in-law has a fischer body coach in his office.) My grandpa was a quality engineer for Hudson Motor. My great-grandpa was a tool and die maker for Ford (or Ford's 

Every week on my way to work I see pre-productions of next year's model year driving around (saw an '09 CTS-V the other day). About once a month I see a car that will never go into production (an open-air Ford F150-Jeep, a Mercedes SUV running on natrual gas, a Peugeot minivan and Lancia coupe modified for N.A. sales.)

So, I like cars


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Can you say if the '09 CTS-V a significant redesign?


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

jbmcb said:


> *I think the design is, to many of those on this forum at least, part of the charm of the Phaeton. It's nice enough, classic understated styling, unlike the new BMWs or Mercedes that scream LOOK AT ME I'M RICH LOOK AT MEEEEE. The design of almost all of the new BMWs is, IMO, just atrocious.*
> 
> My bona fides: I've worked for a tier 3 electronics supplier, and currently work for a software company with products used by dozens of car companies and their suppliers. Almost everyone I know works in some capacity for a car company, either building or designing them. My wife is a third generation engineer (my father-in-law has a fischer body coach in his office.) My grandpa was a quality engineer for Hudson Motor. My great-grandpa was a tool and die maker for Ford (or Ford's
> 
> ...


Thanks for nailing it with super accuracy. I bought my A8L because I wanted an understated luxobarge and afterwards, the Phaeton partly because it turned out to be even more understated. I don't think anyone who can afford the Phaeton had/has any problem with being able to buy any of the other NOTICEMEIAMRICHORHAVEARRIVED cars even with the current values of the used ones available for sale. If any shopper does a critical comparative analysis of the prices of similar cars to the Phaeton, one will see that they all seem to have depreciated in value at very similar rates.


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Uncle Ralph arrives home in Telluride.


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## Clay J (Apr 29, 2008)

My friend has a Phaeton, W12, and barely any of the interior amenities actually work. Poor craftsmanship if it was handmade.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Clay J said:


> My friend has a Phaeton, W12, and *barely any of the interior amenities actually work. Poor craftsmanship if it was handmade.*


I don't think any Phaeton owner (like any premium German Luxury car owner with all the gadgets that come with them) would tell you their car doesn't experience the occasional quirks but I give up since nobody was/is forced to buy one nor did anyone help pay for mine or the other 3200+ owners who mostly, as far as I know, love their cars dearly. So with that said, I give up. :icon_smile_big:


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

As my namesake has been discontinued, I'm torn between the BMW 645i or one of those four-door Mercedes coupes.


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## bjorn240 (Jan 8, 2008)

Asterix said:


> For someone who claims to have all the knowledge/experience you listed, you don't seem (IMO) to know anything about the fit & finish of the interior of a Phaeton or just don't like the car which is fine.


Well, I've only driven the one example, but the panel fit was, as I said, poor. I could basically fit my hand between the dash and a-pillar molding. Compared to the jigsaw-like precision fit of Lexus interior parts, it deserved a demerit.



> The only negatives any well versed gearhead had/has against the Phaeton was/is its badge (in relation to its price) and the exterior which for some was not "exciting."


I have nothing "against" the Phaeton. Nor do any of my colleagues, as far as I know. With respect to its success in the market, I think the issue was simply that the car was not an exceptional bargain and that it didn't stand apart from its peers sufficiently to warrant great interest with consumers. Compare the Phaeton's entrance in the marketplace to that of the '89/90 Lexus LS400 and Infiniti Q45 -- those cars were substantially discounted vis-a-vis the cars they competed with, a fact that helped drive their eventual success. The Phaeton didn't have that benefit, nor did it offer any advances that made it a must-have car, well, save for those magnificent wiper blades. That doesn't make it a bad car, just a bit indifferent.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Kav said:


> In BRG, flatface grill and RHD.












That'll do me!


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Coveted in Croydon.


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## bjorn240 (Jan 8, 2008)

^^^^^^^^^ Well played, sir.

I suppose I forgot to say what I covet. A Jaguar Mk. II would be lovely.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

bjorn240 said:


> Well, I've only driven the one example, but the panel fit was, as I said, poor. I could basically fit my hand between the dash and a-pillar molding. Compared to the jigsaw-like precision fit of Lexus interior parts, it deserved a demerit.


I wasn't planning on continuing this somewhat pointless debate as we have shamelessly hijacked an otherwise excellent thread but I couldn't resist primarily because I don't like seeing the dissemination of misinformation and also when I went into my garage, I couldn't fit my hand between the dash and a-pillar molding of my Phaeton. Besides your "colleagues" seems to be raving about the interior of the car as can be seen in some of their quotes below.
_
 "The cabin is a comfortable, superbly finished place, although it lacks the S-class's spaciousness."......Peter Robinson (Car & Driver)

 "In terms of the look and feel of that cockpit, it outshines that of pretty much any Lexus -- and pretty much any other luxury car. The amount and quality of the Phaeton's wood trim is astonishing. Comparing it with the wood in, say, a Buick is like comparing oak paneling with a popsicle stick. The Phaeton's controls and instruments look ultra-modern, and the rear seat is about as luxurious as it gets, with its own climate control system and extremely comfortable seats."..........Dan Lienert (Forbes.com)

__"We think the Phaeton was designed for people who can afford designer-label clothing, but who prefer to wear those labels on the inside of their clothes, and it is in the interior where the Phaeton sets itself apart."...........Automotive.com_
_
"the cabin is the expected masterpiece of conservative design coupled with superb build: clear, easy-to-read gauges; ergonomics that are pretty good considering the button count and the number of functions available (aside from audio and climate, you get various customization settings, six power sunshades, adjusters for the suspension system and those clever motorized vent panels)." .... Laurance Yap (Canadian Driver)

"Inside and out, the Phaeton's design is warm and timeless, but modern. It isn't understated to the point of plain like Lexus cars have a tendency to be, and it has no interest in taking automotive design in a whole new direction like BMW seems hell-bent on.

The Phaeton looks good and always will. Its design is about style not fashion. Nobody has to get used to it, which some feel is the mark of good design these days. Instead, it's simply long, low and wide like cars should be, and wears just enough brightwork to look special."... Scott Oldham, (Edmunds Inside Line Editor in Chief)

"Phaeton is drop-dead stunning inside, better than the majority of its competition including the more expensive Audi A8 L. And Im not just talking about interior design, something the car exudes with high levels of taste and execution."..............Shawn Pisio (American Auto Press)

"Interior wise, both interiors are rated as high though AMS feels the LS interior does not look very classy and some materials look a bit cheap. The ergonomics of the LS interior were also slightly inferior to those of the VW Phaeton."...... LS460 vs Phaeton Comparison (Autospies.com)_

_"Approaching the Phaeton, you'd be forgiven for thinking you're about to get behind the wheel of an over-sized Passat. The Phaeton is huge: 16.5' long, and 6' wide. Despite these luxo-barge dimensions, the Phaeton is elegant, in a stealth wealth, 'I'm not a Mercedes' kind of way. Understated. But not under-equipped. The Phaeton comes equipped with all the must-have luxury cartoys: sat nav, on-board computer, built-in and hands-free phones, cruise control, adjustable suspension, rain sensitive wipers, five ways to change gears (automatic, sport automatic, Tiptronic, paddle shift and wheel-mounted buttons), seats that heat, cool and massage; the lot."............ Robert Farago (Thetruthaboutcars.com)_

_ "As a luxury car - as a machine for going quickly and comfortably in sepulchral silence - the Phaeton is better than any of its rivals from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Jaguar and Maserati."....Jeremy Clarkson (Top Gear)
_ 


bjorn240 said:


> I have nothing "against" the Phaeton. Nor do any of my colleagues, as far as I know. With respect to its success in the market, I think the issue was simply that the car was not an exceptional bargain and that it didn't stand apart from its peers sufficiently to warrant great interest with consumers. Compare the Phaeton's entrance in the marketplace to that of the '89/90 Lexus LS400 and Infiniti Q45 -- those cars were substantially discounted vis-a-vis the cars they competed with, a fact that helped drive their eventual success. The Phaeton didn't have that benefit, *nor did it offer any advances that made it a must-have car, well, save for those magnificent wiper blades. *That doesn't make it a bad car, just a bit indifferent.


So the rain sensing wiper blades was all you noticed in your time with the Phaeton you were *reviewing*? In essence you didn't notice:

1. That the 4 seats heats and cools your butt.
2. That the 4 seats have massages to help your back as you drive.
3. The intuitive heating system with the automatic wooden vents opens to cool/heat whichever part of the car it notices is not as warm/cold as the set temperature even if it just from the sun's heat & direction.
4. That it was and might still be the first and only car in its class with true 4 zone climate control.
5. That the headrests in the rear seats rise intuitively to allow for securing a child in the backseat when any of the back doors is opened.
6. That at more than 40 mph the car lowers itself 1 to 1.5 inches to the ground for more stability.
7. The disappearing latch mechanism in the trunk lid when it automatically opens or closes.
8. The wipers that are controlled by 2 separate motors to reduce noise when reversing and to optimize how the wipers perform at various speeds and conditions.
9. The fact that wipers park differently each time to maximize wiper blade life.
10. That the car has a residual heat function which will keep the car warm for a while when you've reached your destination.
11. The automatic backup battery connection for emergency starting in the event the starter battery is weak where the simple action of turning the key off and on again allows the convenience battery to help start the car.
12. The Right and Left electric rear foot-well heaters that act as supplemental heaters for the rear passengers.
13. The automatic headrest positioning in the case of a rear end collision as the front seats contain an elaborate mechanism that will properly position the headrest(s) up and forward in the event they are needed to reduce the risk of neck injury.
14. That the head light washers are activated one at a time and many more......... :icon_smile:

From the various reviews below from your colleagues, it seems the primary problem they all had with the car as I had earlier mentioned is the price (relative to the badge) and with some the "not so exciting" looks.

Enjoy the reviews:
https://www.forbesautos.com/reviews/2005/volkswagen/phaeton/testdrive.html
https://www.automotive.com/2004/12/volkswagen/phaeton/reviews/index.html

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volkswagen-phaeton/
https://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=105287
https://www.europeancarweb.com/firstlook/0401ec_volkswagen_phaeton_w12/index.html
https://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article2837650.ece
https://www.motortrend.com/roadtest...wagen_comparison/2004_volkswagen_phaeton.html
https://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2003-12-23-phaeton_x.htm
https://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2005-volkswagen-phaeton.htm
https://autos.msn.com/research/vip/...Volkswagen&model=Phaeton&cp-documentid=435117
https://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/09/08/220499.html

https://car-reviews.automobile.com/Volkswagen/review/2004-volkswagen-phaeton-road-test/876/


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

bjorn240 said:


> I think the issue was simply that the car was not an exceptional bargain and that it didn't stand apart from its peers sufficiently to warrant great interest with consumers. Compare the Phaeton's entrance in the marketplace to that of the '89/90 Lexus LS400 and Infiniti Q45 -- those cars were substantially discounted vis-a-vis the cars they competed with, a fact that helped drive their eventual success. The Phaeton didn't have that benefit, nor did it offer any advances that made it a must-have car...


You did a better job than me expressing my opinion 

On another note, I have noticed the German cars migrating towards that centralized dial that works everything from the navigation to the radio, the phone, climate, etc...maybe I am alone on this, but I do not find that thing easy to use at all!! I used to think the German cars were fairly intuitive and consistent with regards to their interior design - if you could figure out one, you could figure out all of them...and I am usually a quick study when it comes to interior dials, gadgets, etc but that thing has me questioning my IQ! I spent literally 10 hours the other day driving a new Audi and I found that dial to be so confusing, distracting and annoying...whatever the settings were set at in the morning, they were set the same when I returned that night...including the music station...even the navigation took a good solid 10 minutes to set (I used to set my X5 in about 8 seconds while backing out of my driveway...unfortunately/fortunately Lexus makes you sit at a standstill to set it, but I can still do it in about 30 seconds)

P.S...sorry for hijacking the thread!


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## bjorn240 (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes, yes, you're right. The Phaeton is the best car ever. It's amazing other manufacturers even bother building cars anymore. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## Good Old Sledge (Jun 13, 2006)

I covet the DBS.
Actually, I'd be pleased just to get my XJ8 back from the shop!


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## BPH (Mar 19, 2007)

My Audi A6 has gone in to the body shop to fix some customising done by a woman on a mini roundabout (one of many things wrong with British roads)

Her insurers are paying to fix it and have provided a Chrysler Sebring as a loaner  I hate it so now I just covet my Audi A6


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

1967 Shelby GT 500 or a Maserati Gran Turismo.


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## Daveboxster (Dec 30, 2006)

*Cars*

Two Door - Aston Martin (any, DB7, 8 or 9)
Four Door - Maserati Quattroporte - Truly the most beautiful car I have ever seen


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

Anything on .

Especially this for picking up visitors to the beach house.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I feel Asterix needs some support. I am surprised that anyone who has be inside a Phaeton would have any reason to complain. It may not have as much leather and wood as its Bentley brother but it has plenty of class. The quality of assembly superb. To all you doubters "taste and try before you buy ". If you have to have a famous name on you car you are probably the type of person who prefers Armarni or Versace to bespoke.

This was my car being built. I've been round the Mercedes factory and it was like a third world country compared to VW Dresden. 









The car I covet Bentley Brooklands -


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

culverwood said:


> I feel Asterix needs some support. I am surprised that anyone who has be inside a Phaeton would have any reason to complain. It may not have as much leather and wood as its Bentley brother but it has plenty of class. The quality of assembly superb. To all you doubters "taste and try before you buy ". If you have to have a famous name on you car you are probably the type of person who prefers Armarni or Versace to bespoke.
> 
> This was my car being built. I've been round the Mercedes factory and it was like a third world country compared to VW Dresden.
> 
> ...


Thanks my good man.

The problem is that majority of the people who had/have negatives to say about the car don't own one, most likely have never been in one and in many cases have never even see one in person but are just regurgitating the misinformation fed to them by another person who is also ignorant about the car..... a case of the blind leading the blind. :icon_smile_big:


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Kav said:


> In BRG, flatface grill and RHD.


I used to own one. 1953 Plus Four flat rad roadster, one of the last flat rads made and one of the few with the larger Plus Four engine. LHD (originally exported to LA, I had all the history). And in BRG as well. With the strap over the hood (or "bonnet," as the Brits would say). Although I loved it, it is probably the only car I've been scared to drive, primarily because it had so much power. Because of the light bodywork, it was basically an engine on wheels, and it would just take off when you stepped on the accelerator. Also it had a non-synched crash box, and learning to double-clutch between the gears took a while to really master. The thing I thought was coolest about the car is that it had two spare wheels on the back (unlike the one wheel you see on MGs, etc.) I understand one reason for that is that the cars used to be raced extensively in rallies (kind of like a cross-country race for cars), and having the weight of two spare wheels on the back gave the car more traction.

Had to sell it about 12 years ago. What with kids and a morgage, I'm down to a Honda Civic. If I could ever buy another one, which I doubt, I would probably want one of the new Aero Eights, especially the hardtop, which obviously plays off cars like the Bugatti Atlantique and Delage Aero Coupe.


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

culverwood said:


> If you have to have a famous name on you car you are probably the type of person who prefers Armarni or Versace to bespoke.


I don't think that is a fair statement...I think it would more be that one wouldn't think to go to Men's Warehouse or Jos. Banks for Bespoke  ...if the Phaeton was an independent car and it is everything you are all claiming it to be, I think it might have had a better chance then being part of VW...most people know that VW, Porsche and Audi are all from the same family so it is only natural to think of the Phaeton as the lower version of the A8...and since the price tag was anything but I think most people simply walked without investigating further...


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> I don't think that is a fair statement...I think it would more be that one wouldn't think to go to Men's Warehouse or Jos. Banks for Bespoke  ...if the Phaeton was an independent car and it is everything you are all claiming it to be, I think it might have had a better chance then being part of VW...most people know that VW, Porsche and Audi are all from the same family so it is only natural to think of the Phaeton as the lower version of the A8...and since the price tag was anything but I think most people simply walked without investigating further...


I'm inclined to agree. While one would like to think that intelligent people would do a bit of investigating when contemplating a $70,000 purchase, nobody ever said most people are intelligent. VW's decision to badge the Phaeton as a VW rather than an Audi or Porsche was puzzling to many in the auto industry who viewed it as risky. My recollection is that the hope was that this strategy would allow for a halo effect on the VW brand generally. But VW's brand (solid and utilitarian) was so entrenched it worked the other way. Brand matters. But as Asterix has noted, the reviews on the merits were overall extremely positive. 
I would add that brand matters for two reasons. First, as correctly noted by culverwood, many people are attracted to brands for pretty crass reasons. But as suggested by TheWardrobeGirl, others use brand as a substitute for investigation. A person who knows little about clothing construction may choose to pay a premium to shop at Brooks Brothers with the idea that BB has earned a solid reputation over many years and so a BB purchase is probably safe. Same with Mercedes Benz. Substituting brand reliance for investigation, while imperfect, is not at all irrational. Time is a valuable resource, and we cannot all be experts at everything. That said, it is only common sense to point out that the more expensive the purchase, the more actual investigation is warranted.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> I'm inclined to agree. While one would like to think that intelligent people would do a bit of investigating when contemplating a $70,000 purchase, nobody ever said most people are intelligent. VW's decision to badge the Phaeton as a VW rather than an Audi or Porsche was puzzling to many in the auto industry who viewed it as risky. My recollection is that the hope was that this strategy would allow for a halo effect on the VW brand generally. But VW's brand (solid and utilitarian) was so entrenched it worked the other way. Brand matters. But as Asterix has noted, the reviews on the merits were overall extremely positive.
> I would add that brand matters for two reasons. First, as correctly noted by culverwood, many people are attracted to brands for pretty crass reasons. But as suggested by TheWardrobeGirl, others use brand as a substitute for investigation. A person who knows little about clothing construction may choose to pay a premium to shop at Brooks Brothers with the idea that BB has earned a solid reputation over many years and so a BB purchase is probably safe. Same with Mercedes Benz. Substituting brand reliance for investigation, while imperfect, is not at all irrational. Time is a valuable resource, and we cannot all be experts at everything. That said, *it is only common sense to point out that the more expensive the purchase, the more actual investigation is warranted.*


I like and respect your very balanced response but even more critical is the comment you made in bold. What Culverwood said is 100% correct because like I had said way back in my initial response to T.W.G, I had the same mentality until, I took the *initiative* to actually *investigate* instead of relying on hearsay and eventually I ordered the car without even test driving one. So buying a brand name item like an Armani/Tommy Hilfiger et al doesn't equal or guarantee quality as I've learnt so far from notable members of this forum.

VW tagged the car VW, (as shared with me by people who are better versed at the behind the scenes stories) because:

1. of their PRIDE in their accomplishment. Ferdinand Piech asked for the impossible and the VW engineers delivered.
2. VW used the car as the test mule of the advanced technology and engineering features they were planning to use in the Bentley C&F.
3. It was Ferdinand Piech's way of saying "FU" to the auto industry and proving that VW can build the best there is.
4. It is also the halo car to distract people from the reality that even though the perception is that VW was the people's car, the prices of those cars today are not the people's car prices.

Practically, the same car is being sold (for $60k - $80K more with extra wood, leather and turbo to produce 54HP extra) as the Bentley Continental/Flying Spur which are selling like hotcakes.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Thanks for your response, Asterix. I still covet your Phaeton! ;-)
Perhaps I'll buy one this fall. If so, do you have any tips? Is the W-12 worth the premium? Should I steer clear of the 2004 in favor of 05 or 06? I'm not the least bit ashamed to try to take advantage of your experience and investigation.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> I don't think that is a fair statement...I think it would more be that one wouldn't think to go to Men's Warehouse or Jos. Banks for Bespoke  ...if the Phaeton was an independent car and it is everything you are all claiming it to be, I think it might have had a better chance then being part of VW...most people know that VW, Porsche and Audi are all from the same family so it is only natural to think of the Phaeton as the lower version of the A8...and since the price tag was anything but I think most people simply walked without investigating further...


I don't think most people know that VW, Porsche and Audi are from the same family.

In fact, I was unaware about Porsche. :teacha:


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> Thanks for your response, Asterix. I still covet your Phaeton! ;-)
> Perhaps I'll buy one this fall. If so, do you have any tips? Is the W-12 worth the premium? Should I steer clear of the 2004 in favor of 05 or 06? I'm not the least bit ashamed to try to take advantage of your experience and investigation.


Mike, it was a pleasure. :icon_smile_wink:

Each (V8 or W12) has its pros & cons so at the end of the day, make sure you drive either extensively and go with your experience.

The V8 engine is easier to work on/repair because it doesn't have the excessive add ons on it and cramped engine bay; it sounds sportier (the W12 has 2 mufflers); it is a tad bit lighter; it is less of a gas guzzler (not that it would make much of a difference for anyone buying either a V8 or V12); it is easier to find in the market and it is slightly inexpensive so overall the more practical one to buy.

The W12 is more powerful and helps to bloat one's ego; sounds practically silent when running so you occasionally have to confirm that it is on; has a set of windows/windshields that have a special layer/shield to protect the occupants from UV rays which is a royal pain if you use anything that functions like a remote (Speedpass for the Illinois folks), Radar detectors or some cellphones losing reception 70% of the time.

Now for a more detailed comparison, I'd refer you to VWvortex Phaeton Forum where I learnt a lot from the outstanding members. I was a member there for almost 6 months reading up on the car, owner's experiences (love, headaches et al) before I pulled the trigger.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Asterix said:


> Mike, it was a pleasure. :icon_smile_wink:
> 
> Each (V8 or W12) has its pros & cons so at the end of the day, make sure you drive either extensively and go with your experience.
> 
> ...


Outstanding. That is very helpful, thanks. I think of myself as a fellow who keeps his ego in check and is practical to a fault. So I'll likely lean v8.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

A Marmon Sixteen coupe:



and another


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## bjorn240 (Jan 8, 2008)

brokencycle said:


> I don't think most people know that VW, Porsche and Audi are from the same family.
> 
> In fact, I was unaware about Porsche. :teacha:


Well, the ownership structure is quite different. Audi, SEAT, Lambroghini, Bentley, Bugatti and Skoda are wholly-owned subsidiaries of Volkswagen AG. Volkswagen AG also has a controlling stake in Scania and MAN.

Porsche, on the other hand, is an investor in Volkswagen. Porsche now owns 30.9% (or more) of Volkswagen AG. The other major stakeholder is the government of Lower Saxony, where Volkswagen is headquartered.

- Christian


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

bjorn240 said:


> Well, the ownership structure is quite different. Audi, SEAT, Lambroghini, Bentley, Bugatti and Skoda are wholly-owned subsidiaries of Volkswagen AG. Volkswagen AG also has a controlling stake in Scania and MAN.
> 
> Porsche, on the other hand, is an investor in Volkswagen. Porsche now owns 30.9% (or more) of Volkswagen AG. The other major stakeholder is the government of Lower Saxony, where Volkswagen is headquartered.
> 
> - Christian


How interesting.


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