# The Three Best Generals/Admirals of All Time



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

And one's reason(s) for thinking so?


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## Thracozaag (Sep 5, 2002)

Ulysses S. Grant--saved the Union, of course had the heinous miscalculation at Cold Harbor

Robert E. Lee/Stonewall Jackson--their record together pretty much speaks for itself

Rommel/Patton--warriors cut from similar cloths.

(picking 3 is impossible)

koji


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## boomerchop (Nov 30, 2005)

Modern times:
Charlie Lockwood - led the silent service to victory over Japan's Navy/merchant marine.

Raymond Spruance/William Halsey - traded places as front line fighters of the Pacific war, and won.

Omar Bradley - the soldier's general and American D-Day commander.

Older heroes:
Alexander the Great,
Charlemagne
Horatio Nelson

Obviously all of the above are viewed from a somewhat Eurocentric point of view.


"...without a Respectable Navy, Alas America!"
Captain John Paul Jones, 17 October 1776, in a letter to Robert Morris.


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## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

Ancient Era:
Scipio Africanus - Saved the Roman Republic and curbed Carthaginian aspirations in the Meditteranean.

Colonial Era:
George Washington - Learned from his mistakes in the Seven Years War, and turned the fledgling Colonial army into a force with which the British could not reckon.

Early 1800's:
Arthur Wellesly, Duke of Wellington. His brilliance at Waterloo, and understanding of the military, led to the development of the British army which would rule the world in the 19th Century.

Lord Horatio Nelson - Trafalgar, the Nile.

Mid-1800's:
U.S. Grant, R.E. Lee, W.T. Sherman, Stonewall Jackson; Farragut, Porter; and too many others to mention.

Twentieth Century:
Patton, Rommel, Bradley, Spruance, Halsey, Mitscher, Nagumo, Eaker, LeMay. Brilliant tacticians. Non better at executing strategic plans.

Eisenhower, Marshall, King, MacArthur, Nimitz, Leahy, Arnold. Probably the best strategic military minds of the era.

Off course, this is from an Americo-centric perspective, and would not deign for this to be a snub at great generals from other countries. Besides, there can't be only three.

Dennis
If you wish to control the future, then create it.
Est unusquisque faber ipsae suae fortunae


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Great for their military prowess:

Napoleon Bonaparte - the first modern military commander.

Vo Nguyen Giap - the self-taught soldier and master of guerilla warfare.

Erwin Rommel - the professional, or soldier's soldier. Deserves a special mention for his sartorial style.


Great, not as a military commander (though he might have been if circumstances had allowed), but great in his resoluteness, unswerving patriotism, personal ethic, and statesmanship:

Charles de Gaulle


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

sherman
bomber harris
alexander


I do't want to piss off any of the southern gentlemen here, but I have always felt that Lee was a great man, but not a great general. It seems to me that he was more of a gentleman warrior, fighting in an age were a general needed to be more of a railroadman than a swordsman. I think of all those listed, I would rather have him as the godfather of my son than any others, but I don't know that I would want to serve under him more than sherman or grant.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Interesting topic. Some rhetorical questions: How do you judge? Do you go strictly by numbers and efficiency, or do you take into account other leadership qualities?

For example, I believe that the US will never have a leader that equals George Washington. Sure, he may not have been the greatest of military tacticians, but he lead a rag-tag army (and a fledgling nation) to victory by sheer force of character. For those interested, the recent book "1776" gives a great description of the admiration and lengths that his troops would go to for him. Personally, I do not think there would have been an America if it were not for him.

I belive that Horatio Nelson had the same effect on his troops. Badly outnumbered and outgunned, he rallied his Navy to victory like few in history have ever done.

I am far from a military historian, so I will enjoy reading other's more informed inputs.


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## Earthmover (Jan 3, 2005)

I'm not big on Military history, but here's some of my favorites. I usually seem to favor underdogs. Some may be apocryphal. Approximately reverse-chronological order:

*Sun-Tzu the elder*: The co-author of Art of War (his grandson supposedly completed it, but the elder laid out the groundwork, and grandson was not quite the brilliant strategist the elder was). Brilliant commander as an exiled general fighting for the Chu State during the Spring and Autumn Period. Won crucial battles against barbarians of the South, and made Chu the dominant State during his command.

*Lysander of Sparta and Epaminondas of Thebes*: I think Lysander was the "inventor" of the Phalanx, the formation that decimated Athens to become the dominant force in Greece (and stayed that way for 30+ years). That is, until Epaminondas of Thebes found a way to beat the phalanx with a line formation in Battle of Leuctra in 471BC.

*Alexander the Great*: He's technically undefeated, isn't he?

*Hannibal*: Elephants. It's good stuff.

*Chu-ko Liang*: Legendarily considered the best Chinese tactician of all time for the Han Kingdom during the Three Kingdoms Period; made great advancements in military intelligence, spies, advanced land formation tactics from Sun Tzu, and took into account weather conditions and fires to advantage.

*Edward the Black Prince*: True leader with a great track record at a time when the French didn't actually surrender at the first sign of trouble (I'm a Francophile; but the crack was just there for the taking). I still wonder how different the world would be if he became king of England.

*Genghis Khan*: Calvary = dominance. Underrated is the Mongols' policy of leaving the social structures of "conquered" lands intact, and even distribution of spoils.

*Napoleon Bonaparte*: Sort of like Mike Tyson's career: everyone thought he was unbeatable. And then the land war in Asia... Although I suppose Russia isn't exactly Buster Douglas.

*Chief Osceola* of the Seminole: I think he was the best of the Native American leaders: Used the Everglades to his advantage; proto-guerilla warfare, held off US troops as long as he was alive while severely undermanned, and only lost because of treachery by the US troops. I always wonder what he could have done with a decent-sized army; Florida may not have been anything like what it is now.

*Robert E. Lee*: Hands down the best military mind the United States has ever produced. For a great example, I point to the highly underrated Wilderness Campaign. Casualties: Grant - 60000, Lee - 20000. Lee knew how to get the most out of his resources than anyone else. For people that prefer Grant or Sherman, I feel that they won with numbers and brute force, not on because they were better generals than Lee.

*Shaka*: revolutionized tribal warfare (and partly against the Boers) with his adapting the use of the short spear and troop formations.

I'm not very into modern military history, so I have no real suggestions for after 1900, although I am particularly fond of *Patton*'s performance during Operation Torch. I'm also sad that I don't really have a good sense of the good generals in South American history; only one that comes to mind as a possibility is *Simon Bolivar*, but he had excellent deputies (*Sucre, San Martin, O'Higgins*), so I can't really say it's all him, in fact, Sucre is the one I'd choose out of the four.

If I HAD to choose the top 3, I would say Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, and Chief Osceola. They've never lost on the battlefield. That's not completely true, but I think it's close enough.


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## rudiddy (Aug 10, 2005)

I agree with Koji that picking only three is impossible, I think that Chamberlain, Nelson and Pulaski set the standard for courage, honor, selfless service and leadership. Cheers. Patty

*1. Major General Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain (1828 â€" 1914)
2. Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson (1758 - 1805)
3. General Casimir Pulaski (1747-1779)*

_The following excerpt from FM 22-100 Army Leadership, Headquarters, Department of the Army, dated August 1999 recounts Chamberlainâ€™s actions at the Battle of Gettysburg..._

In late June 1863 GEN Robert E. Leeâ€™s Army of Northern Virginia passed through western Maryland and invaded Pennsylvania. For five days, the Army of the Potomac hurried to get between the Confederates and the national capital. On 1 July the 20th Maine received word to press on to Gettysburg. The Union Army had engaged the Confederates there, and Union commanders were hurrying all available forces to the hills south of the little town.

The 20th Maine arrived at Gettysburg near midday on 2 July, after marching more than one hundred miles in five days. They had had only two hours sleep and no hot food during the previous 24 hours. The regiment was preparing to go into a defensive position as part of the brigade commanded by COL Strong Vincent when a staff officer rode up to COL Vincent and began gesturing towards a little hill at the extreme southern end of the Union line. The hill, Little Round Top, dominated the Union position and, at that moment, was unoccupied. If the Confederates placed artillery on it, they could force the entire Union Army to withdraw. The hill had been left unprotected through a series of mistakesâ€"wrong assumptions, the failure to communicate clearly, and the failure to checkâ€"and the situation was critical.

Realizing the danger, COL Vincent ordered his brigade to occupy Little Round Top. He positioned the 20th Maine, commanded by COL Joshua L. Chamberlain, on his brigadeâ€™s left flank, the extreme left of the Union line. COL Vincent told COL Chamberlain to â€œhold at all hazards.â€ On Little Round Top, COL Chamberlain told his company commanders the purpose and importance of their mission. He ordered the right flank company to tie in with the 83d Pennsylvania and the left flank company to anchor on a large boulder. His thoughts turned to his left flank. There was nothing there except a small hollow and the rising slope of Big Round Top. The 20th Maine was literally at the end of the line.

COL Chamberlain then showed a skill common to good tactical leaders. He imagined threats to his unit, did what he could to guard against them, and considered what he would do to meet other possible threats. Since his left flank was open, COL Chamberlain sent B Company, commanded by CPT Walter G. Morrill, off to guard it and â€œact as the necessities of battle required.â€ The captain positioned his men behind a stone wall that would face the flank of any Confederate advance. There, fourteen soldiers from the 2d US Sharpshooters, who had been separated from their unit, joined them. The 20th Maine had been in position only a few minutes when the soldiers of the 15th and 47th Alabama attacked. The Confederates had also marched all night and were tired and thirsty. Even so, they attacked ferociously.

The Maine men held their ground, but then one of COL Chamberlainâ€™s officers reported seeing a large body of Confederate soldiers moving laterally behind the attacking force. COL Chamberlain climbed on a rockâ€"exposing himself to enemy fireâ€"and saw a Confederate unit moving around his exposed left flank. If they outflanked him, his unit would be pushed off its position and destroyed. He would have failed his mission.

COL Chamberlain had to think fast. The tactical manuals he had so diligently studied called for a maneuver that would not work on this terrain. The colonel had to create a new maneuver, one that his soldiers could execute, and execute now. The 20th Maine was in a defensive line, two ranks deep. It was threatened by an attack around its left flank. So the colonel ordered his company commanders to stretch the line to the left and bend it back to form an angle, concealing the maneuver by keeping up a steady rate of fire. The corner of the angle would be the large boulder he had pointed out earlier. The sidestep maneuver was tricky, but it was a combination of other battle drills his soldiers knew. In spite of the terrible noise that made voice commands useless, in spite of the blinding smoke, the cries of the wounded, and the continuing Confederate attack, the Maine men were able to pull it off. Now COL Chamberlainâ€™s thin line was only 1-31. COL Joshua Chamberlain was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions on 2 July 1863. After surviving terrible wounds at Petersburg, Virginia, he and his command were chosen to receive the surrender of Confederate units at Appomattox in April 1865. His actions there contributed to national reconciliation and are described in Chapter 7.


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## Vladimir Berkov (Apr 19, 2005)

I would say that German generals Heinz Guderian and Paul "Papa" Hausser would also make good candidates for a list, being probably two of the best examples from the best army in WW2. 

Georgi Zukhov is also a good candidate, what he accomplished is often overlooked by Americans who think that they alone defeated the Nazis while forgetting that the Russians did most of the fighting and dying.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Being great is as much a combination of luck, timing, terrain, material and hopefully an opponent dumber or unluckier than you are. There is another shade of greatness overlooked- ethics and morallity.It's one thing to call a highly trained machine operator 'an officer and a gentleman' by virtue of flying expensive airplanes. It's something else when they act anything but like a certain navy ace turned congressman-crook from San Diego.And if the Zhukov's of the world are great then the Katyinn Forest, Me Lie, and Wounded Knee must temper part of that greatness. So I propose one of my own, humble and nearly forgotten GREAT warriors. Werner Voss was considered as great a fighter pilot as Von Richtofen. Enough in fact to be issued one of the first two DR1 triplanes to replace the mediocre Albatross. Many of his opponents survived by his skillfull and deliberate machinegunning of the engine- no mean fete when merely hitting an enemy was allready difficult. He was also ironically even recommended for a french decoration. While passing through a village he dove into a well to save a drowning french child, Voss by the way badly asthmatic.In his final dogfight Voss went up against 7 SE5a fighters manned by experienced pilots including aces Arthur Rhys David and James McCudden. Before his inevitable death Voss managed to put bullets in all opposing aircraft and force two into emergency landings. Later in a third Riech luftwaffe history you could only reference 'Voss, 48 victories.' Werner was a jew.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

Love this one, there are so many.

For my Navy friends, I say Vice Admiral Nelson.
He gave us Command and Control, through his years of service, and many battles.

General Marshall, ran a big show gentlemen; not many know or appreciate what he accomplished.

General Abrahms is my next.

Nice day gentlemen



Jimmy


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## manicturncoat (Oct 4, 2004)

Simply for the magnitude of their achievement and the Historical impact I would name; Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan and Napoleon.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Hannibal

Alexander

Their achievements were staggering, particularly Hannibal, who was more or less isolated in Europe for ten years against astounding odds.

*************
RJman. Accept no imitations.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

RJ Man 
Hannibal Lechter??

Vladimar,my friend;You thought you would let this slip by me?

We know, and did not forget what Russia did and know their losses as well.
We all had losses.
You must understand my friend, we had the best Army, fighting 2 wars, the Pacific Theater as well as the European Theater.
You have to give us credit, as well as England, France and all the Nato forces. For winning the war as a team!
Russia had a great military, and with the teamwork of the Nato countries, defeated the Germans, again, as a team
We all did the fighting and dying, as a team.
How is that?
You have a nice day my friend.




Jimmy


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Lee.

Because he didn't turn his sword against his beloved Virginia.

God save the Commonwealth.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Lee.
> 
> ...


_Deo Vindice._


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## Kinizsi (Aug 20, 2005)

-Guderian for being the "father of the Blitzkrieg" and the leading driving force of the motorized war
-Otto Moritz Walter Model for his immense defensive skills
-Albert Kesselring for being a great Air Force General
-Erich von Manstein amongst others for his great counteroffensive to capture Charkov
-Hasso von Manteuffel and Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz von Gross-Zauche und Camminetz for their greatness at tankwar
-Erwin Rommel for obvious reasons


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

The Bruce led Scotland to independence and freedom with a startling victory over the English at Bannockburn in 1314, leading a weaker force to decisive victory through tactical supremacy.

Mel Gibson might have made William Wallace famous but it was Robert the Bruce who got the job done.

------------------


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

In 1959 Tulley Bascombe won the most lopsided military victory in all of human history. &lt ------&gt;


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## Drinking and Drafting (Jun 23, 2005)

Could've just Googled the topic like some folks seemed to, unless some of you are just human encyclopediae about generals... but in terms of U.S. generals-

Robert E. Lee
Douglas MacArthur
Patton

IMHO, of course.

_ "Any man honored by both his enemies and his compatriots is a man worthy of our closest attentions - for in him you may be sure to find authenticity. After all, authenticity is the rarest of all human traits."_

- Samuel Johnson


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

George Washinbgton??? Come on. Billy Howe let him go so many times it's beyond comprehension. Washington's faith in Benedict Arnold. His stumbling in Germantown. There were so many times the British could have handed us our asses - -the only truth is - -we were indeed meant to be. By a divine power. I believe that after much research. My three are:
Abhrams (dead on Jimmy)
Volney Warner (I worked for him. He gave me an ARCOM and I adored the man)
David Hackworth (okay, he only made it to Colonel but his love of his men and the truth kept him from getting a star).


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

General Zod.

Just as powerful as Superman, and he has that dashing beard.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> General Zod.
> Just as powerful as Superman, and he has that dashing beard.


"Why do you say this when you know I will kill you for it?" "KNEEL!"

*************
RJman. Accept no imitations.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

TinTin

I agree with Volney Warner as well.
He was a pleasant individual, this I was told by many.
I was at Bragg while he was 18th Abn Corps boss.
General Fant ran the 82nd, Macmull ran JFKCENMA.
Hackworth has a book out.
He is taking a lot of credit for his hard work.
I feel his books is displaying him that way.
I agree though, he, like Abrams, was a soldiers leader.
Railroaded big time.
Army politics!
Airborne my friend

Jimmy


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

TinTin

I knew you were there, so you were there around the time Charlie Beckworth was developing the blue light project which then became Delta?
He was a hard charger!
Just like the legend.
He, and a Col Rybat? I think he was PSYOPS or 5th Group, cant remember.
Would still jump, with casts on, so they could draw jump pay.
I had a lot of friends at Womack, who knew them well, took care of the team, the project.
A lot of the medical staff went on the first raid, when the choppers bit the dust.
Beckwiths dream has come so true now.
One command, for all involved.
What these guys do now, with technology, awes me, and makes me proud.
It is amazing what a small detachment can do now compared to 30 years ago?
God, I am old!

Nice day my friend
It is always fun to chat with you TinTin.
Have a great weekend.
I am off, going to the Lake!


Jimmy


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

rudiddy, as much as I admire Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and have been to the sight of the 20th Maine's heroics on a number of occasions, his great achievement was made as a newly minted Colonel. He was a great citizen soldier though.

Not one mention of the Duke of Marlborough (aka John Churchill)? He won four great battles against the French during the War of the Spanish Succession (including Blenheim) and is the ancestor of Winston.

Add Napoleon, Lord Nelson and Robert E. Lee and you've got my votes. The first two changed the course of history and the last one consistantly won against great odds.

Oops, thats four. [:I]


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## patbrady2005 (Oct 4, 2005)

Has anyone mentioned Julius Caesar?

Patrick


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by patbrady2005_
> 
> Has anyone mentioned Julius Caesar?
> 
> Patrick


Or Saladin?

"Patriotism is not for those who represent wealth and power. It is good enough for the people" Emma Goldman


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

How about Mao? I'm not enough of a military buff to know, but wasn't he supposed to be a great tactician?


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Not the greatest General, but the greatest Marine and worthy of mention.

Lt Gen Chesty Puller

Henderson Field, and more so, Chosin Reservoir are enough.










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Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Jimmy,
I'm back from Phila (and a JPress suit from the Ardmore Junior Lg. $25 bucks. Holy Crud! As Ensign Pulver would say).

Did an exercise with Delta. 25 years later I can't talk about it.
Same with the resue attempt. What a nightmare I remember it well. Was in the EOC of XVIII during that sanfu.

i can talk about Jones Town. We called it Operation Bag a Bod. Another horrible nightmare despite our macho attitude.

Any idea within the Army today, General wise, that are worth anything? I keep seeing all these one and two stars giving briefings in Iraq. Lots of them wearing EIBs instead of CIBs. What's that all about? How does a guy get a star with an EIB???


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