# Initiation rites or pure sadism?



## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Boys will be boys, so the saying goesâ€¦ but when it comes to initiation rites, how much is enough? If you have been through the Marines, did you experience anything like this? -

We have all seen or experienced a certain amount of bullying when we were at school, but the British press has just been bombarded with the most hideous stories of the initiation practices that go on behind closed doors in the Marines. They call it _'beasting'_ and this is done to the new recruits by immature 'superiors' and the whole thing sounds, frankly, very unhealthy and disturbing. There are published reports of these recruits being forced to strip naked and virtually 'slay' each other for hours on end or individual recruits being booted almost unconscious by 'superiors'.

Little wonder why, when the British government recently reported a fifty per cent drop-out rate of recruits from the Marines, citing that they didn't get on with the way of life!


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Maybe this is one of those gaps between American English and British English, but in American usage, "slay" is a synonym for "kill." I presume the recruits are not actually killing each other, which would seem like a dreadful waste of manpower. There is also the use of "slay" to mean "amuse highly," as in "You just slay me." I assume, however, the marines are not practicing comedy routines, so what exactly are they doing to each other?

Never was in the Marines, but a boy who ran away from my prep school joined the U.S. Marines (this was in 1956) and later came back visiting and said he preferred Marine boot camp to the prep school. I suppose some of these practices, whatever they are, may strike some as gratuitous brutality, but they may be necessary in toughening men up to face the rigors of combat, and the community of a shared suffering does build comradeship and espirit de corps.


----------



## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

JLibourel - no the meaning of the word is the same in the UK, but I purposefully used the word in the virtual 'acting out' sense, obviously. The reports inform that the recruits are forced to knock each other out by whatever means humanly possible, without the aid of anything.


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

There was a military hazing 'scandle' here in the US, complete with video, probably 8 years ago or so IIRC.

---------------------


Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> JLibourel - no the meaning of the word is the same in the UK, but I purposefully used the word in the virtual 'acting out' sense, obviously. The reports inform that the recruits are forced to knock each other out by whatever means humanly possible, without the aid of anything.


While I can see nothing wrong with intensive, even brutal hand-to-hand combat practice, forcing all the recruits to fight until at least half of them are beaten unconscious would seem fraught with potential for serious injury and worse. Seems kind of counterproductive, I'll admit.


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

My girls saw this piece on the BBC (I am a BBC fan) when the story broke.

My youngest wanted to cancel our trip to London and write the British Embassy in Ottawa in protest.
She was livid!

We had a hazing situation at McGill University this season.
It involved a broom stick.
The balance of the football season was canceled.
A senior athletics dept. member sworn to me that it happens at almost every campus in North America.

I understand we need the military boys to be tough and ready,
war is barbaric!
But training does not have to be that barbaric.
It was over the top.


----------



## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Most people joining military service are subjected to quite a lot of psychological pressure (sleep deprivation, being called every imaginable unsavory name, etc.) but people seem to be most horrified to hear of physical hazings.

I wonder which is really worse?


----------



## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

This tried-and-tested ritualistic brutality is meant to produce good soldiers by hardening recruits and creating group dynamics conducive to unquestioning obedience to orders, solidarity and unflinching bravery in combat. Whether it's the best way to achieve these aims is open to question, but experience suggests it can be effective. Squeamish civilians are understandably shocked.

Of course, some collateral damage is going to be inevitable, but that may be the price you pay for crack troops. Those who survive the training are immensely proud of themselves and their comrades, and such pride produces excellent morale.


----------



## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

That's all very well while they're in active service, but it doesn't make for desirable citizens when they leave the armed forces.

Or before unleashing them on civilian society, do they have a way of isolating and neutralising the aggression they beat into services personnel?


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Ashie wrote:

That's all very well while they're in active service, but it doesn't make for desirable citizens when they leave the armed forces.

~~~~

This is one of the greater short failings of our demands on the military, and the militaryâ€™s response to our demands.

We ask our soldiers to the best, be ready for all that is unimaginable.
Things no human should be subjected to.
And at the end of their day,
the military asks them to step aside and be a good citizen.

A difficult line to walk.

I am just about the only male in 2 generations of my family who did not serve as an officer.


----------



## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by zegnamtl_
> 
> I am just about the only male in 2 generations of my family who did not serve as an officer.


But do you find that those family members are inordinately aggressive or violent?

*"Buy the best, and you will only cry once." - Chinese proverb*


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

VS,

Without slinging too much mud around the room,
Dad was a colonel, mom a senior NCO, brother and uncle were engineers,
other uncle a pilot, grandfather an MP,
other grandfather a foot soldier in the second.

None were elite soldier of the type we see and hear of in SEAL sort of way.
But I have met a few and heard a few stories from them that would make your skin crawl.
I think we create men to do a inhuman task and don't do enough for them at the end of their day.

I'll leave it at that.


----------



## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Frat boy dead at UT this week. Toxicology reports are not back yet, but the newspaper reported the body was covered with crude and lewd permanent marker.

Yeah sure, hazing builds character if happen to live through it.


----------



## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by android_
> 
> Frat boy dead at UT this week. Toxicology reports are not back yet, but the newspaper reported the body was covered with crude and lewd permanent marker.
> 
> Yeah sure, hazing builds character if happen to live through it.


android - please keep us informed of the results, thank you. It's barbaric and very worrying that this is happening in 2005.


----------



## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war."

"Join the 82nd Airborne Division. Travel to foreign countries, meet interesting people and kill them."

"Kill a commie for christ." 

The army trained me to kill people. Very straightforward. I was in the infantry. I worked hard and thank God did my 4 years without getting shot at or shooting other people. But there was alot of drinking and fighting and other things best not mentioned. In short, it connected me to my unit and my people. I was not a nut but knew many who were. I worked with the Brits, Canadians and the French and some of those guys were nuts. Hell, the Canadians disbanded their Airborne because of some horrible behaviour by Paratroopers in Somalia. 

So what do you do when you no longer need these people? They fight and die for your politics. When you're finished with them you throw 'em away like they were office supplies? It's been an age old question that I doubt will ever be answered by anyone on this forum. Even Manton. Or, I should say, especially Manton.


----------



## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tintin_
> 
> ...But there was alot of drinking and fighting and other things best not mentioned.


Yes, Tintin, normal chummy guy stuff you'd expect and that does form a healthy bond, but why does it have to get weird and perverted to extreme proportions? Can you explain?


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tintin_
> 
> So what do you do when you no longer need these people?


Well, some cultures in the past made them the ruling aristocracy.

So I guess we could give that a try?


----------



## In Mufti (Jan 28, 2005)

I retired from the US Marines. I served in combat.

The Royal Marines are a suburb fighting force in every way.

I saw the video of the...whatever it was...a bunch of naked men beating each otherâ€¦and my reaction was that some type of ritual had been pretty badly twisted somehow. It was clear from the video that the NCO who was supposedly running the thing (and jumping around like a very disturbed psycho in the video) has several screws loose. According to the story I saw, he is being disciplined--probably will be dismissed from the service. Most of these types of incidents of hazing in the military are the result of a sadist getting in the wrong position and twisting a time-honored "ritual" into something it is not supposed to be. These types of things will happen from time to time. The root of the problem is that all military organizations are primarily made of people and people will screw things up from time to time--including disgraceful displays like the recent one with the Royal Marines. God knows the US Marines have had their share of â€œbad applesâ€ over the years.

As far as this nonsense about having to "deprogram" men after they have served in the military--that is an obscene idea. Most men come out of the military with a genuine sense of confidence that actually makes them less prone to violence. Additionally, they leave the military with an increased sense of law and order and are less prone to poor citizenship--especially compared to their ne're do well peers who stayed home "on the block" drinking beer and playing pool. Also, the more elite the serviceâ€¦the more disciplined the man will be when he returns.

*Now...and listen closely those of you who want to segregate veterans until they are "fit to re-enter polite society"...*The last thing a man who has been in combat and who has been in a war wants...is to come home and fight. A man who has been to war wants the same things every man wants...only he values them much much more. He wants a kind woman, a home where he is loved and a job that will support his family and that he can be proud of. Nothing makes a man more tolerant of a loud-mouth idiot at a cocktail party or in a bar as having been in combat. Once you have been through that, you really just don't feel you have anything to prove about your manliness. Very few violent crimes are committed by actual combat vets.

In fact, the only thing that could probably spur me to violence is some pinhead telling me I need to be â€œre-civilizedâ€ because Iâ€™ve been serving the country in combat---while he sat at home living the good life.

If you run into a guy who is telling you what a tough guy he is and swaggering around--he probably hasn't seen much. He's a phony.

If you want to help a returning vet â€œreenter societyâ€ (what ever that is supposed to mean), buy him a beer and tell him that you're glad he got home safely; introduce him to nice girl, offer him a job.

Regards,


----------



## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Some very keen insight. For a marine (just kidding). I'm an Army brat and my father was with 5th Gp in 66-67 in the Central Highlands. He was a A team Cpt. Now, here's where we differ. Some of the SF guys in my Dad's team were banging 12 on the coo-coo meter.

In fact, the question always was, what came first. Were they nuts to begin with or did SF and a bizarre war (no, make that a Stability Operation) make them crazy? Either way, some of these fellows, the lucky ones who came back from Operation Crazy Horse, had some very real issues. And I speak from experience.

Read Pat Conroy and tell me when these men come home every thing is okey-dokey. It's far from it, sir. What most prefer to do is cover it up and pretend it ain't there.


----------



## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

VMan- Why does it have to be so wierd? 'Cause some guys believe the wierder the better. The crazier you are the better soldier you are. Most big talkers Mufti mentions are or were REMFs (Rear Echelon MF). It's always the very quiet guys who can surprise you. Sometimes booze is involved. And sometimes some very outrageous stuff will happen with everyone stone cold sober.

I once asked a Sgt Major why the US still had an Airborne Div. (which I was in) if our life expectancy on the European battlefield (I was being trained to fight the Warsaw pact in WW III) was about one second (I was told we would never get to the door of our aircraft - - we'd be shot down in the plane long before we got to the DZ). Sgt MAj said if you're foolish enough to jump outta a plane you'll probably be more likely to attack a machine gun nest at my orders. At least more likely than some straight leg in the 4th Infantry Div. (legs are non-airborne). Does that make any sense?


----------



## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tintin_
> 
> Read Pat Conroy and tell me when these men come home every thing is okey-dokey. It's far from it, sir. What most prefer to do is cover it up and pretend it ain't there.


People deal with things differently. Look at children who are abused at home. Some grow up to abuse their children but many do not.

What might be true is that people with certain temperaments are more attracted to certain jobs, which may explain why some people have the ability to be, say, test pilots, and some do not. Are test pilots fearless because they're test pilots, or test pilots because they're fearless?


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

I served as an infrantry scout in the IDF, and saw combat, as well as being in the first wave or vetran troops who were used to control the first inftafadah. most of my friends were infantrymen, or in combat positions. most saw combat. one of my fiends was a very good combat medic and was chosen for his units most dangerous missions - he had a dozen men die in his arms before he was 21. 

on the one hand, my fiends and myself more or less integrated into society well, and more or less quickly. now, at a range of almost 20 years, we are all middle aged family men who are solid members of society - an engineer, and accountant, a sales manager, a collage proffesor, etc. 

on the other hand, I spent several years involved in stuff that I probrably shounldn't have, because it seemed perfectly normal for me, after I got out. I remember any number of times we would sit around a pub perfectly calmly telling each other stories about firefights, being shelled, beating people to death and so on. and when my pretty serious girlfriend, right after I got out of the army, told me her ex-boyfriend (who she later married) was coming to visit and that he was a terrible flirt, I very matter of factly told her that if he bugged me I would kill him and hide his body and nobody would ever know what happened, and I meant it. 

For the first time in almost 20 years, I was talking to some new friends about the intafadah, and I said how I had probrably broken 200-300 limbs during my service, pretty matter of factly. then I thought about what I had said and realized that really didn't sound so nice. 

in terms of the hazing etc - in the IDF there are similar things, but very respectful - you are made to do some extremly difficult, or impossible things to see when you break, and you are pushed to the limit to see how you work as a group. but you are nver hit or humiliated in this way.

the one exception is that sometimes you are punished by a more vetran soldier instead of by the legal system. for instance, a person who does something forbidon on guard duty (say smoke) may be made to bury himself in garbage and sit under a pile of garbage for a few minutes unstead of going to trial and being sent to detention for a week.


----------



## In Mufti (Jan 28, 2005)

Some interesting statistics on Vietnam Veterans the VA compiled over the years:

"The men who served in Vietnam were proud and dedicated warriors. 97% of Vietnam era veterans were honorably discharged. 90% of the men who saw heavy fighting are proud to have served their country. Since they came home, most Vietnam veterans have done well for themselves. Most of the men made the transition back to civilian life without difficulty, in contrast to the popular media-created image of Vietnam veterans as psychotic, drug addled, and homeless misfits. The average income of Vietnam veterans is 18% higher than their non-veteran peers. Vietnam veterans have been much better at staying away from jail than the general population. Only 0.5% of them have been in jail while 1.5% of the population has been incarcerated. Lastly, 66% of Vietnam veterans say they would serve again if called upon."

Of course the 1% who are pegging "the coo-coo meter" are going to get a lot more notice than the guy who quietly went back to work at the bank.

As for Pat Conroy...He wrote The Great Santini in an effort to hurt his father, who was in fact a Marine fighter pilot. In the end Conroy admired his father a great deal as was obvious in the obit he wrote for him after he died. Of the two Conroys--I would wager Pat Conroy is ten times as loopy as his father. He's a great writer but a total mess as a person--and he never seved a minute in the military (being a cadet at the Citadel doesn't count).

As to the chicken or the egg--were they nuts before the service, or did the experience mess them up? My experience is that I have never seen a solid man's personality change due to his experience in war. If there were some defects in his personality, military service may make them appear earlier rather than later. But they were there.

All bets are off if alcoholism and drug abuse come into play. Then, like anyone else in society--it's all down hill--regardless of military service or not.

Regards,


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Summer of '77 I'm walking across the 'grinder' or large asphalt parade and training field of our west coast bootcamp ( my alma mater.) This recruit is doing disciplinary pushups and crying in agony. My first thought, having gone through boot was what a blankety blank whimp blankety blank. My second thought was how hot it truly was, this during a statewide drought and heat wave. Somewhere my brain synapses fired a connective sequence and I ran over and hauled the recruit up by his armpits. His DI comes running out of the duty shack chewing me out, the duty officer behind him and in the donneybrook I managed an emergency call to our infirmary.The senior medical officer comes down and begins chewing out the poor DI and ensign. The kid had severe burns on his hands, chin, chest,groin and thighs. We brought out a thermometer and recorded unreal surface temps. In some places the stuff was sticking to our shoes. There is a difference between discipline and initiations and stupid brutallity.


----------



## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Interesting stats. I'd be curious as to what the stats are relative to alcoholism in the military. It is a huge problem. There's a great book about children who are military brats and how they have similar probs to the children of alcoholics.

I made a decision to leave the military because I didn't want my children growing up the way I did. Four high schools. Passed out Green Beret NCOs in my backyard the next morning after a "Prop Blast" No sense of home. Eating by yourself in a school cafeteria for the 3 months or so. Then, when you finally have friends, the old man comes home with a fat yellow envelope and shouts, "We got orders!" Civilians feeding off the military in $s**t holes like Fayetville, Norfolk, Colorado Springs, Columbus, GA. 

When you're a brat you know two things:
1. The Army comes first
2. Dad comes second

Everything else doesn't really matter.


----------



## In Mufti (Jan 28, 2005)

As to alcoholism in the military: When I first came in, alcoholism and alcohol abuse were rampant, in fact it was considered part of the military lifestyle. It isn't that way at all now. Any "alcohol related offenses" and your career is over. An officer or NCO who gets a DUI might as well start putting out his resumes the next day. This is a good thing for the military. Although there were a bunch of guys who used to moan about the restrictions on alcohol turning everyone into wimps, that's pretty much gone now too. One unfortunate side effect is that most of the clubs on base are really struggling to stay solvent, but that was inevitable too in many ways.

I'm not saying there aren't any drunks in uniform anymore, just that it isn't tolerated--and that is a vast improvement. 

Same thing has happened with smoking. When I first came in, I was one of the only giys that didn't smoke, now, at least in the Marine Corps, smokers are a definite minority.

All of the services started changing in the 1980s. The huge crack down on drugs and alcohol abuse and not accepting applicants that hadn't graduated from high school or had criminal records changed the culture a great deal--for the better.

Young officers now have no idea what it was like when you held quarters in the morning and half the guys standing there were still drunk from the night before and at least one was UA or in jail. Thank God.


Regards,


----------



## jjmorgan (Aug 24, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by In Mufti_
> 
> It was clear from the video that the NCO who was supposedly running the thing (and jumping around like a very disturbed psycho in the video) has several screws loose. According to the story I saw, he is being disciplined--probably will be dismissed from the service. Most of these types of incidents of hazing in the military are the result of a sadist getting in the wrong position and twisting a time-honored "ritual" into something it is not supposed to be. These types of things will happen from time to time. The root of the problem is that all military organizations are primarily made of people and people will screw things up from time to time--including disgraceful displays like the recent one with the Royal Marines. God knows the US Marines have had their share of â€œbad applesâ€ over the years.
> 
> As far as this nonsense about having to "deprogram" men after they have served in the military--that is an obscene idea. Most men come out of the military with a genuine sense of confidence that actually makes them less prone to violence. Additionally, they leave the military with an increased sense of law and order and are less prone to poor citizenship--especially compared to their ne're do well peers who stayed home "on the block" drinking beer and playing pool. Also, the more elite the serviceâ€¦the more disciplined the man will be when he returns.





> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> This tried-and-tested ritualistic brutality is meant to produce good soldiers by hardening recruits and creating group dynamics conducive to unquestioning obedience to orders, solidarity and unflinching bravery in combat. Whether it's the best way to achieve these aims is open to question, but experience suggests it can be effective. Squeamish civilians are understandably shocked.





> quote:_Originally posted by zegnamtl_
> 
> But I have met a few and heard a few stories from them that would make your skin crawl.
> I think we create men to do a inhuman task and don't do enough for them at the end of their day.


The quotes above really sum the whole situation up for me. Firstly my background: I have been in the British Army for 5 years and counting, having been in the TA (reserves) for 2 years at University. I was fortunate enough to spend 18 months at WestPoint and had the delight of spending some time at some of the grimmest army camps I had ever seen in the Mid west and Arizona (that was until I was up in Scotland on exercise!). The British mentality is not too different; though I have not had many dealings with the Royal Marines I have completed my "P company" airborne training and know what high standards are expected by these organisations.

My personal view echoes those above (and I cannot say too much more as a serving officer) but I might add that while there has been understandable questioning of what has happened I do find it rather difficult to stomach the this wave of public indignation that has swept the country. No itâ€™s not a good thing that has happened and ideally it should not happen. These men are taught day in day out to be aggressive and it seems that the general public find this hard to stomach. If you don't have an effective fighting force you might as well not have one at all. Effective means well trained, motivated and when needed aggressive. Such is the state of the world today less and less are willing, rightly or wrongly, to 'sign up' and as this has had an effect on the quality of the recruit. Any organisation has their share of misfits and in a military pretext this often highlights itself in the scenes that were videoed.

In conclusion I do not think what was recorded is right BUT it tends to be a bi-product of military life and needs to be kept in check- this is the responsibility of the junior officers and it is them that must be reprimanded as well. In my experience at the end of the working day most soldiers want to either go home to their families or go out in to the local town, get drunk and chase the local girls.

It is very popular, and easy, to criticise the military (in the UK anyway). They are one of the largest employers in the country who employ from all social groups- feed, clothe and house them. In many instances bring recruits up to basic standards of education (literacy, numeracy), teach them to be self-sufficient and in general have respect for themselves and for others. I donâ€™t see any Soho (For America read Californian) media or advertising company do this, I fear that those delightful left wing idealists would not let you average solider through their door- let alone give them a steady job.


----------



## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jjmorgan_
> 
> ...I do find it rather difficult to stomach the this wave of public indignation that has swept the country. No itâ€™s not a good thing that has happened and ideally it should not happen.


James, firstly, thank you for responding with your interesting opinion.

I'm surprised you find it difficult to stomach the wave of public indignation when it focusses on the fact these men were forced to get drunk and fight stripped naked with onlooking 'superiors' dressed in drag? It stands to reason that we civies are bound to get suspicious.



> quote:_Originally posted by jjmorgan_
> 
> It is very popular, and easy, to criticise the military (in the UK anyway).


I disagree with you about this. We British have always been an extremely proud nation about our military and, God knows, particularly as we are surrounded by water - just look at the recent 200th anniversaries - where else in the world do events like that happen? Like our monarchy, as a nation we are greatly envied and gain massive respect from around the world.


----------

