# How can one tell whether a suit is fused, half or fully canvassed?



## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

Evening, all. I've a stupid question which I've posed in the thread title. So, how is it done? Sight, pinching the fabric, x-ray vision, sartorial sixth sense, or using one's amazing powers of literacy to read the description on STP?


----------



## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Pinch the fabric below the bottom buttonhole, both on the inside and outside of the jacket. Gently pull the layers apart. If you can feel a third layer inside, the jacket is fully canvassed.


----------



## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

DocHolliday said:


> Pinch the fabric below the bottom buttonhole, both on the inside and outside of the jacket. Gently pull the layers apart. If you can feel a third layer inside, the jacket is fully canvassed.


To my knowledge this is the best method. Doing so at the lapel may give a false positive.


----------



## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

I'll be damned, gents, it works like a charm. I performed the test on a Corneliani DB blazer from STP and there was the third layer in all of its fully canvassed glory. Then I tried...ah...hm...ahem...every other jacket in my wardrobe an got not a sausage. They're good suits, but I'll be on the lookout in the future. So, where's the test point for this half canvassed business?


----------



## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> So, where's the test point for this half canvassed business?


Up in the chest area. I've got a half canvassed sport coat and if you do the pinch test down at the bottom of the jacket there is no middle "floating" layer. If you do it up in the chest area, there is. And if you run your finger tips along the fabric you can actually feel where the floating chest canvas starts.


----------



## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> So, where's the test point for this half canvassed business?


Does it really matter?:icon_smile_wink:


----------



## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

Know the maker and the amount of handwork they do. Regular readers of the forums will know the answer.


----------



## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

If you place your nose on the jacket front and inhale, you may sometimes detect eau de camel, horse, flax, etc. woven in the underlying canvas. Remember, inhale.


----------



## mrchapel (Jun 21, 2006)

kitonbrioni said:


> Know the maker and the amount of handwork they do. Regular readers of the forums will know the answer.


This has nothing to do with the OP's question...


----------



## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

jamgood said:


> If you place your nose on the jacket front and inhale, you may sometimes detect eau de camel, horse, flax, etc. woven in the underlying canvas. Remember, inhale.


"You can tell our suits are of the finest construction because upon close inspection they smell like a barnyard."

LOL


----------



## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

what about fused and non-fused?

and why are full canvassed jackets appreciated?


----------



## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Untilted said:


> what about fused and non-fused?


What about 'em?


----------



## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Untilted said:


> what about fused and non-fused?
> 
> and why are full canvassed jackets appreciated?


There has been much discussion on this board regarding fused vs. canvassed. While there is no doubt that full canvassing is preferred sometimes cost is a factor. Many have stated that new fusing techniques are better than before and therefore the suit drapes better and the bubbling inherent to fused garments of before does not occur as much.

Myself I prefer full canvassing and will wait and save to purchase suits of that quality rather than go for quantity with fused suits. For one thing there is just no comparison in my opinion regarding the drape and feel of the suit. The canvassed suit moves with you and over time the canvass, as it is free floating, wil actually conform to your contours and will provide a most excellent fit. In that way the suit will actually become part of you (I know, I know that's very corny!!). I don't believe that a fused garment will do that as the canvass is fixed without the freedom to move or conform. If I am incorrect someone please correct me. Thank you.


----------



## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Recent thread on this topic: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=54861


----------



## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Here's some nice cutaway photos from the Tom James web site that show the difference between a full canvas and half canvas construction.

Full canvas:

​
Half canvas:

​


----------



## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Concerning the potential for fabric deteriation over time:

- what is the worst case scenario with a non-canvased suit?
- what is most likely to happen with a very well looked after non-canvased suit?
- also, does canvassing create any noticeable improvement in comfort?

As with all things, perfection is the preference, but i feel i must truly understand what can be gained in order to develope an appreciation.


----------



## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

rp. said:


> Concerning the potential for fabric deteriation over time:
> 
> - what is the worst case scenario with a non-canvased suit?
> - what is most likely to happen with a very well looked after non-canvased suit?
> ...


1) The worst case is generally thought to be the malign phenomenon of irreparable "bubbling," which occurs when the glue that holds the fusible in place begins to degrade at spots and the fabric separates at those spots from the fusible, causing said "bubbling" effect. A "canvassed" suit, because it uses a mechanical rather than a chemical bonding process (i.e., sewing rather than gluing) is immune to this danger.

2) That said, fusing technology has improved in recent years. I own both kinds of suits, and have had no problems with bubbling in my fused suits, some of which I've owned for going on a decade now. The key to care is restraint: That is, avoid dry cleaning at all costs, as the harsh petrochemicals and mechanical agitation used by dry cleaners will rapidly break down the glue in the fusible. Suits should be hung out to air for at least 24 hours after wearing, steamed if wrinkled, brushed gently with a good clothes brush, and spot cleaned to treat particular stains (I use club soda on a clean white hankie for most spots), and that will obviate any "need" for dry cleaning in nearly all cases. Also, invest in a good electronic trouser press and, once in a while if you like, take the suit trousers to a laundry to be commercially steam-pressed (this really puts a sharp crease back in, and is something I always do if I get caught in the rain or the weather is exceptionally humid--just make sure to tell the cleaner very clearly, "press ONLY"). Rely on the triad of brush, steamer, and trouser press, and stay away from the dry cleaner except for special cases of major staining.

3) I find that comfort is more a matter of overall good fit than of canvassing or fusing. Ceteris paribus a good half- or full-canvassed suit is indeed a bit suppler, but a fused suit that fits you properly (especially in the critical upper back/upper arm/shoulder girdle area) will be more comfortable by far than a canvassed one which does not.


----------



## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

I agree that fit is very important to the comfort of a jacket, but for me, canvassing is very important, too. With most fully canvassed garments that I've tried on, even when they fit well, they don't feel nearly as comfortable to me. RL Polo's fusing in their fully fused suits is more comfortable than almost any other, however. 

A move up to a better half canvassed suit, like those by Southwick, is definitely an improvement for me over fully fused. Better fully cavassed suits feel just wonderful.


----------



## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

smr said:


> With most fully canvassed garments that I've tried on, even when they fit well, they don't feel nearly as comfortable to me. ...
> 
> Better fully cavassed suits feel just wonderful.


These two statements seem mutually exclusive.


----------



## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

GMF said:


> These two statements seem mutually exclusive.


He seems to be drawing a distinction between "most" fully canvassed suits and "better" fully canvassed suits. Seems clear to me.


----------



## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

PJC in NoVa said:


> He seems to be drawing a distinction between "most" fully canvassed suits and "better" fully canvassed suits. Seems clear to me.


I think he meant to say "With most fully fused garments that I've tried on, even when they fit well, they don't feel nearly as comfortable to me." That's the only thing that would make sense given his second paragraph.


----------



## joshuagb (Nov 27, 2004)

*dimples?*

So, I've also heard one way to see if a jacket is fully canvassed is to turn over the lapel and search for dimples in the backside of the lapel where the canvas was attached. Is this also a fairly accurate way to do it, or are the stitches sometimes too small to see?

A quote from a tailor on this forum:

"Hold the jacket, turn the lapel over and see if you can see faint impressions from the stitches used to attach the canvas, you may see them in good light."


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

GMF said:


> I think he meant to say "With most fully fused garments that I've tried on, even when they fit well, they don't feel nearly as comfortable to me." That's the only thing that would make sense given his second paragraph.


You can't draw that intent from what he says. As with the previous post, it seems clear he distinguishes between "most" and "better". How hard is that to understand? However, only he can tell us his intent.


----------



## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

I don't know what a bad fused jacket looks like, so I cannot say. And I do not over-dryclean my jackets, so I am not going to have that problem. I think one of my jackets, a RTW linen jacket from Kabay, is half-canvased, and it looks fine (though the salesman/owner told me it is full-canvased).

But so far as appearance is concerned, don't forget that the heavier fabrics hardly need a canvas to look good, and the thinnest fabrics have a hard time looking good no matter how they are canvased. A canvas just gives form to the jacket, to avoid its looking like a shirt-jacket.

I personally would never get a fused jacket, because this is a bad place to start with any tailor.


----------



## Cravate Noire (Feb 21, 2007)

kitonbrioni said:


> Know the maker and the amount of handwork they do. Regular readers of the forums will know the answer.


I really don't want to compromise anybody, but would the next step be to take pictures, preferably of those makers labels?

So far I'm not that well versed in the technical aspects of construction, so this thread is also very useful to me, so thanks to those who answered in detail!


----------



## dag2000 (Feb 17, 2007)

kitonbrioni said:


> Know the maker and the amount of handwork they do. Regular readers of the forums will know the answer.


It would be great to have a little list of maker and construction method. I've only been on the board for a very short while and know the construction methods (fully canvassed) of the renowned (Oxxford, Brioni, etc.) and the methods (fused) of the notorious (Hugo Boss, low-end Ralph Lauren, etc). But I don't know anything about the vast middle ground where many of us do our shopping. In particular, I would love to know the methods of:

Hart, Shaffner and Marx
Hickey Freeman
Southwick
Corbin
H. Freeman
Burberry
Lauren by Ralph Lauren
Polo
Tallia
Samuelsohn
Palm Beach
Austin Reed
Jack Victor 
Peerless
Joseph Abboud
Various Private Labels such as Brooks Brothers (by line), Rochester Big and Tall, etc.

Anyone know any/most of these and want to take a stab at this?


----------



## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Most of these makers are going to have different levels of quality. Better to learn the difference than to equate a brand with a method. Plus, if you can't see it or appreciate it, then it should be lower on your list of priorities than the things you CAN appreciate. I know nothing about wine and I can't drink it anymore, so when I go out to dinner I spend a lot of money on my steak and very little on alcohol. Were I more refined about wine I know this would be impressive but I am not. The same goes for watch finishing and the highest level of sound quality in speakers, I don't know anything about them and can't see them, hear them or appreciate them, so I am not going to pay for them. Likewise, if you knew about fusing and canvasing that would be great, but you don't, so there is no reason to worry about it.


----------



## antirabbit (Mar 17, 2005)

My method is pinch test, which can back fire, then an inspection of the button holes and the lapel hole. If there is a flax colored, rough, layer inbetween the wool, generally it is canvassed. Also, on a half canvass, say 3 button jacket, you will see the canvass reach to the top button and not the others. This method works with light and dark canvass.


----------



## joshuagb (Nov 27, 2004)

So has no one heard of the dimple thing? Looking for the stitching behind the lapel?


----------



## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

PJC in NoVa said:


> 1) The worst case is generally thought to be the malign phenomenon of irreparable "bubbling," which occurs when the glue that holds the fusible in place begins to degrade at spots and the fabric separates at those spots from the fusible, causing said "bubbling" effect. A "canvassed" suit, because it uses a mechanical rather than a chemical bonding process (i.e., sewing rather than gluing) is immune to this danger.
> 
> 2) That said, fusing technology has improved in recent years. I own both kinds of suits, and have had no problems with bubbling in my fused suits, some of which I've owned for going on a decade now. The key to care is restraint: That is, avoid dry cleaning at all costs, as the harsh petrochemicals and mechanical agitation used by dry cleaners will rapidly break down the glue in the fusible. Suits should be hung out to air for at least 24 hours after wearing, steamed if wrinkled, brushed gently with a good clothes brush, and spot cleaned to treat particular stains (I use club soda on a clean white hankie for most spots), and that will obviate any "need" for dry cleaning in nearly all cases. Also, invest in a good electronic trouser press and, once in a while if you like, take the suit trousers to a laundry to be commercially steam-pressed (this really puts a sharp crease back in, and is something I always do if I get caught in the rain or the weather is exceptionally humid--just make sure to tell the cleaner very clearly, "press ONLY"). Rely on the triad of brush, steamer, and trouser press, and stay away from the dry cleaner except for special cases of major staining.
> 
> 3) I find that comfort is more a matter of overall good fit than of canvassing or fusing. Ceteris paribus a good half- or full-canvassed suit is indeed a bit suppler, but a fused suit that fits you properly (especially in the critical upper back/upper arm/shoulder girdle area) will be more comfortable by far than a canvassed one which does not.


I agree with this.
Excellent answer.


----------



## joshuagb (Nov 27, 2004)

This thread is really about how you can tell if a suit is canvassed or fused. There have been plenty of other threads that discuss whether canvassed is better than fused. Perhaps members here think it's so easy to tell that it doesn't need to be discussed, but I'm a bit confused on how to tell without ripping open the jacket. The look and feel of good fused has shown that to the wearer, it's now a bit harder to fathom. This thread is essentially about knowing what you're buying.


----------



## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

joshuagb said:


> So has no one heard of the dimple thing? Looking for the stitching behind the lapel?


To answer your question, the stitching won't always be visible, and often isn't. I still believe the best way to tell if a jacket is fully canvassed is the pinch test I mentioned in my first response in this thread, on the previous page. It's the most foolproof method.


----------



## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

DocHolliday said:


> To answer your question, the stitching won't always be visible, and often isn't. I still believe the best way to tell if a jacket is fully canvassed is the pinch test I mentioned in my first response in this thread, on the previous page. It's the most foolproof method.


And I found this answer very helpful when I posted the question quite some time ago. Medwards will be glad that the search function is used!


----------



## joshuagb (Nov 27, 2004)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> And I found this answer very helpful when I posted the question quite some time ago. Medwards will be glad that the search function is used!


Ha, exactly, I used the search function and resurrected this old thread. But rather than answering the question, people started debating other tangents. Oh well, 'tis the nature of Ask Andy.

Thanks, Doc. I've seen the stitching in some garments, and not in others. This sort of confused me. Why is it visible sometimes and not others? Is this a question just of the weight of the fabric, or another question of workmanship?


----------



## dag2000 (Feb 17, 2007)

David Bresch said:


> Most of these makers are going to have different levels of quality. Better to learn the difference than to equate a brand with a method. Plus, if you can't see it or appreciate it, then it should be lower on your list of priorities than the things you CAN appreciate.


Several things. First, if the consequence of suit construction technique A results in a latent weakness (tendency to bubble) and suit construction technique B avoids this, I don't need to see or feel it to "appreciate it." Second, while the above may appear to be a kind of cheat sheet or a substitute for refined discernment, and may be used in that way by some (or many), for me, it represents a systematic attempt to develop insight. By associating makers (and lines within makers) with construction techniques, I can attempt to sense and perceive differences between garments. Third, this kind of information can help someone avoid overpaying for inexpensive construction and find value-priced garments.


----------



## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

joshuagb said:


> I've seen the stitching in some garments, and not in others. This sort of confused me. Why is it visible sometimes and not others? Is this a question just of the weight of the fabric, or another question of workmanship?


I've seen this as well in many OTR suits and if its hand done I usually notice two things:
1) it is very subtle and doesn't immediately pop out at you and,

2) the stitch pattern will be somewhat uneven suggesting that it is done by hand and not a machine that will maintain the same level of consistency


----------



## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Dag2000, you are entitled to know what you are paying for and entitled to a cheat sheet if you want it/need it, and I did not mean to imply otherwise. 
G-d knows there are many aspects of suit/jacket construction that are beyond me. I was just trying to explain that hidden aspects of suit construction are not nearly as important as aspects like fit, design, fabric, and external workmanship, which are not hidden. Furthermore, I have never seen a jacket with bubbling and I think it is probably a rare problem these days. So look for that canvas by all means, you will have a hard time telling and even an expert cannot tell if the canvas is very fine.


----------



## dag2000 (Feb 17, 2007)

David Bresch said:


> Furthermore, I have never seen a jacket with bubbling and I think it is probably a rare problem these days. So look for that canvas by all means, you will have a hard time telling and even an expert cannot tell if the canvas is very fine.


Thanks. You know, it's interesting. I fondly refer to these kind of community of interest forums, like Ask Andy, nerd sites. I used to be a power poster at a number of electric guitar and amplifier forums. What fused interlining is to the attire crowd, solid state amplifiers are to the guitar/amp crowd. Everyone had to have vacuum tube powered amplifiers with point to point wiring. _I_ had to have a vacuum tube powered amp with point to point wiring. And I can't even play!

There are lots of parallels. There is the obsession with overbuilt features. Amp enthusiasts love military specification (mil spec) grade features that will outlive their original buyers. The same applies to the interests here.

I don't mean to delegitimize anyone's interest in or enjoyment of garments made by Kiton, Canali, Oxxford, etc. I hope to be able to pick up one of these on the cheap, but my hulking 48 XL frame isn't often represented in the discount channel.

Ironic that you mentioned wine, as I used to be a wine enthusiast in pre-internet (not to mention pre-children and graduate school) days. I collected, read Robert Parker and the Wine Enthusiast, learned about filtered wine (ugh!) and unfiltered wine (the _only_ way to produce wine), went to tastings, held tastings myself, and enjoyed it all.

I want to learn. It's my nature when something interests me. And I'm impatient in the process. Does that make me a dilettante? Maybe, but hopefully not an insufferable one.

Thanks again for the information, opinions, and advice.


----------



## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

fused = excrement !

heres why ... the synthetic interfacing and the glue that bonds it to the suiting material melts under the high temperature of dry cleaning .. hence the bubbling effect.

think you can avoid this by rarely dry cleaning ?

dont ever get a fused suit wet in the rain , the fused interfacing starts to come unstuck. in fact a fused jacket slowly starts to disintergrate the moment you wear it through normal wear.

fusing is the mass production , short-cut way of making suit jackets .. and mass production is pre-occupied with making disposable , perishable goods.


----------



## dag2000 (Feb 17, 2007)

english_gent said:


> fused = excrement !
> 
> heres why ... the synthetic interfacing and the glue that bonds it to the suiting material melts under the high temperature of dry cleaning .. hence the bubbling effect.
> 
> ...


Leaving aside the fact that mass production is also pre-occupied with making consumer goods affordable to the middle class, how many times have you personally had a fused suit bubble from a dry cleaning? How long ago? After how many dry cleanings? Also, how many times have you personally experienced a fused suit becoming "unstuck" after getting it wet? How did it affect the appearance? And again, how long ago?

The reason I ask is that as I point out above, just as I would never, ever be caught dead playing a guitar through a solid state amplifier, and that I have many rational reasons for playing through a tube amp and can go on about sag and warmth and tone and so forth, I do realize that there is a subjective, even emotional aspect to my preference for tube amps. And that has to do with the respect for and nostalgic feelings towards old, outmoded production techniques that resulted in high quality goods. I simply like the point to point hand wired chassis in my amp. It is a reproduction of an amplifier in Fender's Tweed era. I love to look at the workmanship. And because I am an inveterate fiddler (not the violin kind), when I pulled the chassis from the amp, sold the cabinet, and commissioned a new cabinet to be built for the electronic guts of the amp, I went to the best builder of Tweed reproduction amps, Michael Clark, for the cabinet. The thing is like a work of art. And, if you read the very first paragraph on his site, what he says to introduce you to his philosophy, while the vocabularly differs, the style and tone are the same as something you could read on the C&J or Oxxford websites.

"Clark Amplification builds accurate Fender® tweed era replica amplifiers without compromise. Finger jointed pine cabinets covered with aged sealed tweed, triple chrome plated steel chassis, the best in the industry custom wound paper bobbin transformers, eyelet boards point to point wired with cloth covered solid wire, custom manufactured, Sprague, and SoZo, Allen Bradley carbon composition resistors, CTS and CGE potentiometers, WeberVST and Eminence speakers, Carling switches, military grade tube sockets, and NOS tubes. These amplifiers are all about quality and exactness to Leo Fender's tradition. *Nothing but the best*."

All I am saying is that as enthusiasts, we tend to obsess about outliers and favor dramatic criticism of anything but the absolute best production techniques. The fact is that there is production variability among makers of suits who use fusing. Variables such as quality assurance techniques, the design of work processes, the quality of the workforce employed, investments in training, the quality of manufacturing equipment, production tolerances, and so forth all contribute to the quality of the finished product. Manufacturers who take extreme care and who invest in their production techniques will build a more consistent product, a higher quality product, than those who do not. That is probably why a fused Hart, Shaffner, and Marx suit lasts longer, wears better, and is less likely to break down than one its lesser priced competitors. If you need to dogmatically insist that "fused = excrement" at least acknowledge that the level of quality varies and many of us among the hoi polloi can't afford but to cover ourselves in ****.


----------



## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

i haven't worn fused in yonks .. so its been yonks since i've had a fused pile of crap die on me. :icon_smile_big: 

the black double breasted (god it was even DB) i bought about 11 years ago was fused , a few trips to the dry cleaners and the lower quarters looked like it was having an adolescent outbreak of zits.

go full canvas , young lion , you'll never look back .


----------



## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

english_gent said:


> i haven't worn fused in yonks .. so its been yonks since i've had a fused pile of crap die on me. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> the black double breasted (god it was even DB) i bought about 11 years ago was fused , a few trips to the dry cleaners and the lower quarters looked like it was having an adolescent outbreak of zits.
> 
> go full canvas , young lion , you'll never look back .


That may be the problem. I am sure the computer my mother bought me in college 11 years ago would not stack up well against the one I own now. Technology does not stand still. I think most people agree that fusing techniques have come a long way, and in some cases, cannot easily be identified. I own both canvassed (Canali, Barbera, Corneliani, RLPL) and fused garments (Boss, Burberry) and have never had any problem with the fused sportcoats at all. I find the dogmatic "fused = excrement" statements somewhat nauseating.


----------



## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

While I'll agree that fusing is somewhat of a bogeyman around these parts, I'll disagree that it's no longer a valid reason for concern. I saw a fused jacket that had bubbled just last summer -- on the hanger at a major retailer. 

A lapse in QC, I'm sure, but it happens. And when it does, you're out several hundred bucks, or more.


----------



## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

another point i make is .. if you are paying over a certain amount for a suit you should expect it to be canvassed.

the biggest crime of some high profile designer brands is (armani , prada, boss etc ) they charge a rediculous amount of 'wonga' for a fused jacket.

my philosophy is this .. if im buying fused i might as well go as cheap as possible rather than buy a cheaply made garment with a narcotic label and pay many hundreds more.

there's nothing wrong with fused if your a paying a few hundred bucks full retail .. then you must expect mass produced , cookie cutter suits , manufactured with as many corners cut as possible.

but im sorry , you go into 4 figures and you buy fused , you need your head testing as for that money fused does not compare to full canvas and you've been robbed.


----------



## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

GMF said:


> I think he meant to say "With most fully fused garments that I've tried on, even when they fit well, they don't feel nearly as comfortable to me." That's the only thing that would make sense given his second paragraph.


Sorry I did not see this earlier. GMF is correct. I usually take very short breaks to join this site and post, and I definitely failed to proofread in this case. Sorry about the error.


----------



## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

pt4u67 said:


> I've seen this as well in many OTR suits and if its hand done I usually notice two things:
> 1) it is very subtle and doesn't immediately pop out at you and,
> 
> 2) the stitch pattern will be somewhat uneven suggesting that it is done by hand and not a machine that will maintain the same level of consistency


Although some newer machines are made so they do not stitch so consistently.

Plus, do not forget, some makers consider a sewing machine opperated with human hands to be hand work-really.


----------



## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

DocHolliday said:


> While I'll agree that fusing is somewhat of a bogeyman around these parts, I'll disagree that it's no longer a valid reason for concern. I saw a fused jacket that had bubbled just last summer -- on the hanger at a major retailer.
> 
> A lapse in QC, I'm sure, but it happens. And when it does, you're out several hundred bucks, or more.


Besides the possible bubbling, there is breathability to think about. Fused suits may not come apart as they used to, but still to not breath well and can be hot, especially in the summer.


----------



## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

english_gent said:


> another point i make is .. if you are paying over a certain amount for a suit you should expect it to be canvassed.
> 
> the biggest crime of some high profile designer brands is (armani , prada, boss etc ) they charge a rediculous amount of 'wonga' for a fused jacket.


Add Michael Kors, Paul Smith, and John Varvatos to the list (Is David Chu fused? I forget).


----------



## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

yes .. all those 'fashion brands' make tier 3 suits but price them at tier 2 !


----------



## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

dag2000 said:


> It would be great to have a little list of maker and construction method. I've only been on the board for a very short while and know the construction methods (fully canvassed) of the renowned (Oxxford, Brioni, etc.) and the methods (fused) of the notorious (Hugo Boss, low-end Ralph Lauren, etc). But I don't know anything about the vast middle ground where many of us do our shopping. In particular, I would love to know the methods of:
> 
> Hart, Shaffner and Marx
> Hickey Freeman
> ...


Canvased RTW in that range would be Canali, Pal Zileri, Hickey Freeman*, Corneliani, Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece, RL Purple and Samuelsohn.

*Some rare exceptions.


----------



## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Just to tag onto Bob's post, Corneliani's mainline stuff -- the items that just say "Corneliani" are fully canvassed, but its "Trend" and "CC" lines are both fused. The Pal Zileri "Pull" line was fused, but I think it may no longer exist. I'm not up on Pal Zileri enough to know if something took its place, or if any of the other stuff is fused.


----------



## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

I had a fused suit that bubbled the very first time I had it cleaned, although to be fair that was 15 years ago.


----------



## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

english_gent said:


> yes .. all those 'fashion brands' make tier 3 suits but price them at tier 2 !


I like your use of tier 2 and tier 3. I think we get too caught up here sometimes trying to precisely rank every brand/line individually.

Using a tier or group system would work so much better, especially when comparing items within the same tier-and perhaps help keep us stay focused on the quality level at hand rather than usual, "well, it's OK, but it's not as good as ____(Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton)____" which always seems to come up and then promptly derail a discussion.

That said, I would put the best quality fused suits are someting closer to tier 4 (for me, it would be: Tier 1: Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, et. al.; Tier 2: Belvest, Mabro, et al.; Tier 3 Zegna, Canali, Corneliani, et. al.; Tier 4: Top leve fued; etc.)


----------



## thrombox (Sep 10, 2008)

Please forgive my ignorance concerning suits, I am new to them.

I have been recommended a good tailor and will be going next month to be fitted for my first proper real suit, a classic British double breasted suit in navy flannel (with all the standard stuff like opening cuffs, double pleats etc.).

Upon reading the canvasing thread I began to become worried. I take it that if a suit is handmade by a tailor then it is canvassed? I don't want to appear like an idiot by asking the tailor if this is the case, as I am looking for a top notch suit. 

(Please note this tailor is not a savile row tailor where I take it something like this would be standard)

If anyone could give me any pointers or set my mind at ease I would much appreciate it, don't like the sound of this fused or half-canvassed business.

Thanks


----------



## blaze79 (Jan 7, 2010)

thrombox said:


> Please forgive my ignorance concerning suits, I am new to them.
> 
> I have been recommended a good tailor and will be going next month to be fitted for my first proper real suit, a classic British double breasted suit in navy flannel (with all the standard stuff like opening cuffs, double pleats etc.).
> 
> ...


Is it bespoke or MTM?


----------



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

March *2007* - then suddenly a post in February *2010*...Wow! Threads on this forum are like good clothes or threads, timeless! :icon_smile_big:


----------



## zoorado (Nov 27, 2009)

thrombox said:


> Please forgive my ignorance concerning suits, I am new to them.
> 
> I have been recommended a good tailor and will be going next month to be fitted for my first proper real suit, a classic British double breasted suit in navy flannel (with all the standard stuff like opening cuffs, double pleats etc.).
> 
> ...


If you haven't a piece of the tailor's work, there's no way to determine the construction by look and feel. You really should just ask him about it; it's a pretty standard question for tailors, I believe.

BTW, how much are the quoted prices?


----------



## VinceRich (Apr 15, 2010)

GMF said:


> These two statements seem mutually exclusive.


You can't be "mutually exclusive" when using words like "most."


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

A little late to the discussion here, but --geez--if you cant tell by the look, and you can't tell by the way it feels, what's the dif? (I mean, it's pretty obvious, no need to go sniffing). Yes, the pinch method works, but ....


----------



## Master-Classter (Jan 22, 2009)

I was always under the impression that the difference between a half canvass and full canvass is pretty negligible once you get past the fused and move to at least a half. 

anyone feel that going full canvass instead of half really justifies the price jumps?


----------



## pkhunter (Sep 17, 2009)

Lino said:


> That said, I would put the best quality fused suits are someting closer to tier 4 (for me, it would be: Tier 1: Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, et. al.; Tier 2: Belvest, Mabro, et al.; Tier 3 Zegna, Canali, Corneliani, et. al.; Tier 4: Top leve fued; etc.)


Great post. The tiering idea is just what this forum needs 

Quick question: where would you put Isaia or Hart Schaffner or Tom Ford?


----------



## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

pkhunter said:


> Great post. The tiering idea is just what this forum needs
> 
> Quick question: where would you put Isaia or Hart Schaffner or Tom Ford?


Ask Andy FORUMS - View Single Post - Hierarchy of Quality?


----------



## DoctorRN (Jan 13, 2013)

Hi, Can I re-open this thread and ask some advice regarding differentiating fused and floating canvas. A couple of years ago I had a tailcoat made. I am just wondering whether it has a floating canvas. I have done the pinch test and there does appear to be a third layer underneath the bottom button, which is separate from the inside and outside layer. When I look at the buttonhole, there also appears to be a pale middle layer seen within the buttonhole which looks like canvassing.

My understanding is that fused canvassing tends to be black or dark grey in colour, whereas this is clearly pale (like most proper canvassing I have previously seen). 

What do people think?

Many thanks.


----------

