# Modern Opera...



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

What do all my opera loving AAAC friends think about some of your more contemporary artists...purists argue that people like Bocelli and Brightman shouldnt even be considered opera as they seem to fall into a very non-traditional category and take the genre off the "ivory tower" it has enjoyed for hundreds of years...I personally like the fact that it introduces a whole new element to such a great world...sure I was first lured in by Bocelli, and I still enjoy his work immensely, but I quickly discovered Caruso, Gigli, Callas, and the rest of the legends...I dunno, I kind of liken it to drinking Scotch; a rookie drinker couldnt pick up a glass of Glenfeddich XXX and truly appreciate it, you have to start with Chivas or Johnny Walker, and though Chivas and Johnny Walker are great in their own respect, they will want to gradually move up to the more premium stuff...

...such is the case with opera...at least that's the way I see it...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

Crossovers are not a recent thing. Placido Domingo and Frederica von Stade have been doing pop albums since the 70's. They're certainly legends in their own right. Many others as well.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Do you mean Sarah Brightman? She has a trained and pleasant voice. But listening to her is like drinking distilled water at room temperature.I never thought of opera as 'ivory tower' either. longtime nieghbors of my grandfather were italian. Opera WAS their popular music. Anyone who understands the historical meaning of La Pensionarie ( sp) can appreciate hearing it on old vinal records with homemade wine from the same vines trellised over our heads for shade.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Indeed I do mean Sarah Brightman...I actually really like her voice, I think she has an amazing depth, but, I dont listen to her that often for the same reasons that I cant listen to classical music that often...there is just a bit too much complexity, and you really must be in a state where you can devote all your attention to the music to fully appreciate it...

...and as far as the ivory tower...that may be more my own experiance, but in college, I have known several people who were like some kind of self styled pseudo elite wannabe masters of the universe, and their big thing is opera...but they think that jsut because it is a fine art, it should be like some uber-exclusive thing...I'd imagine that they arent alone in this thinking...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The funniest irony with opera is a repertoire of storylines no better than daytime T.V. soaps The social experience is anything but exclusive. My fondest memories of San Francisco are of the Opera House, the opportunity to dress well among people who appreciated my effort and the afro-american main usher who gave brief synopsis before sending me to the library for a reference to read after the third production. I sent my Girl to the Bucharest State Opera House last night. She hadn't seen a ballet in 10 years because of finances. They saw a special Bolshoi cast production of Swan Lake. She also mentioned sitting right behind the romanian president! Next month she's taking her mother to see Carmen.Exclusive?


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> ...and as far as the ivory tower...that may be more my own experiance, but in college, I have known several people who were like some kind of self styled pseudo elite wannabe masters of the universe, and their big thing is opera...but they think that jsut because it is a fine art, it should be like some uber-exclusive thing...I'd imagine that they arent alone in this thinking...


As a gay man who has season tickets to the opera, and has also been listening to it every Saturday afternoon for 30 some years I can without hesitation say I know very little about opera, voices, productions, coloratura (sp?) and all the other other aspects my "Serious Opera Queen" friends spill forth every time we get together. Talk about ivory tower, unless you dealing with serious opera queens, you're dealing with pikers. I know people with 6,7 or 8 versions of each opera and discuss in length the atributes of diva so-and-so vs diva so-and-so playing Butterfly or Tosca or ...well you get the picture. Yes I agree it is easy to start off with Johnny Walker/Bocelli and move your way up to Glenfeddich/Cerraras. But it is also OK to just like the music and not get caught up in the "who's singing". I do not mean this to cast aspersions on those who are truely knowledgeable and generous with their knowledge, unlike the posers who only wish to impress.
Cheers


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## DaveInPhilly (May 16, 2005)

I have Time to Say Good Bye and Harem in the CD player in my car, thats about as far as I go, though.


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

I have a hard time with Brightman,Andre Reiu, Bocelli and even Pavarotti in his final installments, and all the cross over artists. It's Gigli goes Las Vegas. Now, if there were good reason to believe that these activities actually increased the audience for classical music, then all well and good. I wouldn't listen to their head-set Madison Square Garden stuff, but there would be a good argument for the greater good of what they were doing. The problem is, I am not sure anyone can say that by dumbing down they actually brought more people into serious music. Is there any statistical information on this? I think not, and frankly I think when someone listens to a cross-over artist, even Yo-Yo Ma when he does that kind of stuff, it ends there. It simply does not increase the audience for Beethoven, Bach, Wagner, Mahler or any of the greats. It's a one off experience. I don't begrudge them success, but I sincerely believe they are doing it for the big bucks, and maybe more power to them. But it is not art and if it doesn't have any success in advocating the higher forms then what is it good for?

Joe


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## The Wife (Feb 4, 2006)

_La Lyrica_ is indeed what used to entertain the masses before television and team sports hit their heydays. The old, emotional Italian stuff has always been my favourite opera music, with the Viennese Strauss coming in second. I'm not certain that it all was intended to be so highbrow as it is perceived these days by some. It certainly is a rich field, as each singer uses his/her own style while performing the very same piece, and each voice yields varying results among repeated performances. I wouldn't label a singer as operatic unless he or she actually performed the traditional material. It is safe to say that some voice-qualities are baritone, mezzo-soprani and so forth, and an opera singer can, as Placido Domingo did so well in his _Mariachi_ album, perform other styles of music. Though I adore that Mexican collection of his, I would not label Mr Domingo a pop singer. Now, as to "non-traditional" opera music, though it was not really part of The Gabba Goul's query, I suppose that if one were to see his thirtieth production of, say, Giuseppe Verdi's _Rigoletto_, and studied all the varying nuances of each, together with the individual performances therein, one might well be receptive to a more modern or contemporary version of it, such as the one directed by Jonathan Miller in the 1980s. His _Rigoletto_ was, as I recall from seeing it in New York City back then, set in Manhattan's Little Italy nearly a century after the orginal. I was more open-minded at that time, but still felt a pang of dislike and dismay at the thing, as I do with almost all remakes. I think that what Dr. Miller was demonstrating was the timelessness of the story, that American mob-types were caught up in much the same human conditions as the people in old Italy. For that, I appreciated the modern version wrought by the very innovative Dr Jonathan Miller https://www.roycecarlton.com/pdf/Miller-Kit.pdf#search='Miller Modern New York Rigoletto', but I resist contemporary _opere _ that are more atonal than melodic. Cacophony abounds in some attempts at what I can only call "modern opera". You just won't hear people humming the tunes from them, as they have done with traditional operas, because it's nearly impossible.
A pleasant, cultivated voice singing anything melodic is a wonderful thing, and it is not necessary to pigeonhole an artist. Brightman and Bocelli are _sui generis_ and, at the risk of sounding like a daft existentialist, they are what they are. That's fine with yours truly.

************************

Beware of Splay-Foot and Shorty-Pants


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## n/a (Sep 4, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> As a gay man who has season tickets to the opera, and has also been listening to it every Saturday afternoon for 30 some years I can without hesitation say I know very little about opera, voices, productions, coloratura (sp?) and all the other other aspects my "Serious Opera Queen" friends spill forth every time we get together. Talk about ivory tower, unless you dealing with serious opera queens, you're dealing with pikers. I know people with 6,7 or 8 versions of each opera and discuss in length the atributes of diva so-and-so vs diva so-and-so playing Butterfly or Tosca or ...well you get the picture.


Yes, I do get the picture: abundantly. I know an "opera queen" and she (sorry,"he") can be absolutely past bearing, especially after a few drinks. As a trained church musician, I can tell you that in the UK we have "sacristy rats", predatory queens that haunt the stalls after Evensong, stare at the boys in the choir and ask me "so how long ago were _you_ a chorister?" (Thanks, I like my men a tad closer to my age.)

Rarely, rarely, comest thou,
Spirit of Delight!
Wherefore hast thou left me now
Many a day and night?
Many a weary night and day
'Tis since thou art fled away.

Percy Bysshe Shelley: _Song_


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jason Evans_
> (Thanks, I like my men a tad closer to my age.)


LOL - I don't know what the equilivant in the UK would be but here in the States, if you're not old enough to remember where you were when Kennedy was shot - well - no need to apply. - LOL[8D]

Cheers


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## n/a (Sep 4, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> 
> 
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1963? But 19 years too early for me.[:0][:I]


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jason Evans_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where is this ghost story of yours?


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## n/a (Sep 4, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> Where is this ghost story of yours?


It is too intense to even talk about in this forum. I lost too much sleep last night because of it. I might as well just turn myself in...

Rarely, rarely, comest thou,
Spirit of Delight!
Wherefore hast thou left me now
Many a day and night?
Many a weary night and day
'Tis since thou art fled away.

Percy Bysshe Shelley: _Song_


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## Caledon (Jan 14, 2006)

My Sister likes to direct Opera and does so on a freelance basis. She has a show opening in March that looks amazing. She showed me the sketches for the sets and costumes and they look fantastic, great cast too.

Here is a link



Peace Love Light


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## rach2jlc (Jan 18, 2005)

Interesting post, Gabba. I also completely agree with you. Though I personally don't like Bocelli much (and, even worse, Charlotte Church), I don't mind that they are popular or that they are singing. As you said, I like that they are introducting a whole new generation to opera who otherwise wouldn't listen to it because of the "stuffiness" often associated with its listeners.

For me, there are some contemporary singers who do a great job, but there was a spell back at mid-century with the likes of Renata Tebaldi, Callas (of course), Leontyne Price, Franco Correlli, et. al who just can't be beat. Maybe, in 20 years or so, we will assemble a group of contemporary recordings that will match some of these, but I don't think we've done it yet. 



John


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## Mr. Checks (Dec 21, 2005)

Great thought-provoking post.

I like Bocelli because I like his voice. As a former opera student, I tired of the dime-a-dozen trained voices ("now place the sound in the back of your throat, like you're yawwwnnnninnng") and long for unique voices.

That's why I love the greatest of all tenors, Franco Corelli. I have literally everything he ever sang for release, plus some bootlegs. 

I'm not a fan of the crossover Bocelli does, but I like him in the standards. He sounds like an Italian guy singing, as compared to a voice student.


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## Full Canvas (Feb 16, 2006)

For better or for worse . . . most traditions change with the times. Romantic memory usually prejudices each of us to some degree. Thematic timelessness cannot necessarily be captured by those with insufficient life experience. The continually improving technical quality of sonic reproduction dramatically tilts the field. Sadly, "contemporary opera" is an oxymoron for many of us.

Sarah Brightman is certainly a soprano. However, can Miss Brightman possibly comprehend a Mimi or a Musetta? Could the wonderful tenor, Domingo Placido, ever convincingly step into Rodolpho's shoes?

I remain unconvinced by contemporary artists. Do our contemporary artists need contemporary composers, themes, and material that command a much broader audience? What are your thoughts, please?
_____________________________________


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## n/a (Sep 4, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by Full Canvas_
> Sarah Brightman is certainly a soprano. However, can Miss Brightman possibly comprehend a Mimi or a Musetta? Could the wonderful tenor, Domingo Placido, ever convincingly step into Rodolpho's shoes?


I won't get into the Sarah Brightman debate as I've never cared for her in anything. No opera singer, her. But Domingo has indeed stepped into Rodolfo's shoes. He recorded the opera with Caballe back in the '70's. Given the more youthful, lyric state of his voice back then, it is a fine interpretation of the role. Alas, the recording is marred by conductor Solti's rushed, unsentimental concept of the score. Far to be preferred would be Pavarotti and Freni, both in their absolute prime, with Karajan.


Rarely, rarely, comest thou,
Spirit of Delight!
Wherefore hast thou left me now
Many a day and night?
Many a weary night and day
'Tis since thou art fled away.

Percy Bysshe Shelley: _Song_​


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Some years ago KUSC (USC's classical radio programme) was playing their seasonal broadcast of the MET with the always insightfull programs about opera before the broadcast. I forget the actual artist, it was a Sarah Brightman like soprano of no mean talent and training. But she made the disastrous decision to do a collection of 'popular music.'He played her umm rendition of THERES NO BUSINESS LIKE SHOW BUSINESS. The next interpretation was joyfull, meaty and had the finess of a 3 legged dog- Jimmy Durante. I recall the intent was to exemplify 'charisma' or the 'it' that some people have. My earliest memory of classical music was this nut from Denmark called Victor Borge. He had it, and in a encore of a serious work he brought tears to many.


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## Full Canvas (Feb 16, 2006)

Mr. Evans and Cufflink 44,

Thank you, gentlemen! It's good to know that people are actually "listening" to opera. I shall gladly settle for Scotto and BjÃ¶rling (no slight to Mr. Placido) anytime.

Cordially,
Full Canvas

edited for spelling


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