# American Culture is a Sewer that Produces its own Sewage



## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

The horror of this is that these kinds of things go on and rarely get much attention so most of us only see stories here and there. Remember the story posted a couple of months ago in Tennessee about the couple that were car jacked, raped, tortured, and dismembered - this story does not end in death but its perversity and depravity resemble it. Of course the good 'ol NY Times gives us this tidbit

"The housing authority is financed by the federal government, and has repeatedly failed to win a federal grant that would have allowed the demolition of Dunbar Village and relocation of its 300 residents. Four years ago, Congress eliminated $165,000 a year that paid for extra policing at the city's housing projects as a part of a national cutback in housing money."

So you see - per the Times, it's lack of federal government money that's responsible.

They completely dodge the more compelling issue - what is it in our culture that produces 14, 15, and 16 year olds who would even think of - let alone do - such things? I have my own ideas.

For those who don't have accounts for NY Times, I'll quote the salient portion:

"But nothing could have prepared them for the awfulness of the attack that took place last month, which the local prosecutor called "the worst crime I've seen in 37 years in the business."

After dark on June 18, the police say, as many as 10 armed assailants repeatedly raped a Haitian immigrant in her apartment at Dunbar Village and then went further, forcing her to perform oral sex on her 12-year-old son. They took cellphone pictures of their acts. They burned the woman's skin and the boy's eyes with cleaning fluid, forced them to lie naked together in the bathtub, hit them with a broom and a gun and threatened to set them on fire.

Neighbors did not respond to her screams, and no one called the police. The victims ended up walking a mile to the nearest hospital afterward."

Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/19/us/19palm.html


----------



## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Clearly this is despicable beyond words, but to indict an entire culture over the actions of a handful here and there seems an odd conclusion. 

I'm no friend to the vulgar American culture, but it's important to note this kind of violence is still an aberration, not the norm. 

I can't say what madness drives people to such savagery. We had another thread where some sports figure was indicted for animal cruelty. Another mystery. 

Maybe some humans are just rotten to the core--the old Original Sin business. I can believe it. 

I don't blame the NYT though. The point about funding for increased policing seems a fair one, imo. 

One telling sign is the quote from the article that indicated that almost none of the people in that community would come forward and speak on the record for fear of reprisal. That, in a nutshell, is the b*tch of it all. The more silent/passive that decent people are in the face of depravity and crime, the more that crime will flourish. Waiting for Superman to arrive is a poor plan. Taking action to hurl a violent NO! into the faces of the scum such as those in the article is one important step toward creating a society worthy of the name. 

Too many of us have grown timid and lazy, fat with money perhaps and X Box to care. Although I don't think that's the reason behind the reticence of those citizens in the story who won't come forward to take a stand. There, it's just blind animal fear. 

Understandable, but ultimately unsustainable if what you wish to sustain is a world worth living in freely and with the modest expectation of happiness. Moral relativism maybe? That's poison enough to paralyse good people from acting strongly against evil nonsense.


----------



## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

I work about a mile from there, and drive by it every weekday. The whole area is dotted with government-owned and operated hellholes of misery, despair, crime, drugs, sloth, waste and decay. 

The government ownership of these properties effectively guarantees that not only will they never improve, but their harmful economic effects spread to the immediate neighbors like a cancer. Just look at New Orleans.


----------



## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

Phinn said:


> Just look at New Orleans.


New Orleans resembles that remark. We have half of our former population, our streets are still patrolled by the National Guard, and we are set to be the murder capital of the United States.


----------



## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

BertieW said:


> Clearly this is despicable beyond words, but to indict an entire culture over the actions of a handful here and there seems an odd conclusion.
> 
> I'm no friend to the vulgar American culture, but it's important to note this kind of violence is still an aberration, not the norm.


Maybe. It's hard to know - maybe it is because stories are more likely to get spread becasue of the internet. I mean, who knew how many female teachers were out there banging their 6th grade students? Is it a recent phenomenon or is it just that it gets covered more now? Every Monday morning I get up with the news on and hear about some awful murder/rape, etc. here in Atlanta - now people were always being murdered - but it does seem like the brutality and depravity is increasing. For instance, in the article, it wasn't enough to rape the woman, but then they had to have her perform sex acts on her son - it's as if regular ol' crimes aren't enough. They don't stimulate or degrade enough so the stakes get raised. I mean these kids were in the "projects" but they could still afford guns and cellphones with cameras - what were they going to post the pictures on the internet? It was just a form of entertainment for them. Maybe they got bored looking at someone else's porn online and wanted to make their own.


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Rocker said:


> Maybe. It's hard to know - maybe it is because stories are more likely to get spread becasue of the internet. I mean, who knew how many female teachers were out there banging their 6th grade students? Is it a recent phenomenon or is it just that it gets covered more now? Every Monday morning I get up with the news on and hear about some awful murder/rape, etc. here in Atlanta - now people were always being murdered - but it does seem like the brutality and depravity is increasing. For instance, in the article, it wasn't enough to rape the woman, but then they had to have her perform sex acts on her son - it's as if regular ol' crimes aren't enough. They don't stimulate or degrade enough so the stakes get raised. I mean these kids were in the "projects" but they could still afford guns and cellphones with cameras - what were they going to post the pictures on the internet? It was just a form of entertainment for them. Maybe they got bored looking at someone else's porn online and wanted to make their own.


They were just poor misguided youth who would have been at afterschool basketball practice shooting hoops if the evil Republicans wouldn't have killed those programs off.

Obviously the solution to this crime is more federal money instead of.....immediate execution behind the court house. Bailiff, lead these men outside.


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Is anyone surprised by what is happening? Horrible incidents like these stem from man's imperfect, animal nature. Nothing new has changed there. Human nature is the same as it was thousands of years ago. It cannot be perfected, no matter how much social engineering human beings are subjected to.

What _has_ changed, IMO, is the lack of will on the part of authorities to deal with these crimes. That is why they will continue. In a more reasonable society, the perpetrators of these atrocities would have been detained, maimed, and / or executed and the offending neighborhoods razed to the ground.

But American authorities, in particular, are prevented from acting by the prospect of accusations of "racism" and "bigotry," the machinations of the racial grievances lobby (and its implied threat of racial violence), and by the excessive power of legal and media elites.

Civilisation requires the application of brutal force and violence in order to survive. Without that force (or the threat of it), the barbarians are allowed to kill with impunity. Say what you will about the Romans, Ottomans, and Nazis, but they certainly knew how to maintain order. :aportnoy:


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Old Brompton said:


> Civilisation requires the application of brutal force and violence in order to survive. Without that force (or the threat of it), the barbarians are allowed to kill with impunity. Say what you will about the Romans, Ottomans, and Nazis, but they certainly knew how to maintain order. :aportnoy:


The juxtaposition of your last two sentences make for appalling irony. I would say that given your posts, somewhere a radio call-in show is missing a caller, but I think I'm sickened.

The addition of the flip aportnoy "slayer" smiley next to your sentence about the Nazis' gift for maintaining order gives the impression of your wholehearted and carefree support of such regimes.

Does anyone on this sub-forum have any sense of perspective?


----------



## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Old Brompton said:


> Is anyone surprised by what is happening? Horrible incidents like these stem from man's imperfect, animal nature. Nothing new has changed there. Human nature is the same as it was thousands of years ago. It cannot be perfected, no matter how much social engineering human beings are subjected to.
> 
> What _has_ changed, IMO, is the lack of will on the part of authorities to deal with these crimes. That is why they will continue. In a more reasonable society, the perpetrators of these atrocities would have been detained, maimed, and / or executed and the offending neighborhoods razed to the ground.
> 
> ...


Somewhere I once heard that only two things can motivate a person to act properly: (1) Fear of punishment; or (2) Love of God.

Being a Christian, I personally believe option (2) is the only one that really works in terms of changing people's "animal nature," as you call it, in a society, but hey I would be violating separation of church and state.

Which leaves (1), which is a question of how far do you want to take it. But note that enforcing (1) often utilizes the same animal nature as the people you are punishing.


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Fair enough. I understand your revulsion. The cost of maintaining and furthering civilisation and the (sometimes unpleasant) obligations it places upon us may be too much for some to bear.


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

MOM AND DAD!!!!

MOM OR DAD!!!

PARENTS!!!

Of course kids will be kids, but these kids didn't come up with this idea without seeing similar before hand. These teenagers are already long gone. For them to be able to do something like this shows they have no sense of compassion. This didn't happen the day before this incident, this happened when they were babies. They were not taught by their parents what is right and wrong, what is acceptable and that we treat those as we want to be treated. 

We allow these low income groups to put the blame of poor parenting on the fact that the government doesn't give them enough. That is not the reason, the reason is because they don't look at being a parent as a job. What we need to do is start holding parents responsible for their children's actions. Put the parents of these children in jail and start seeing how things change. At the least, they'll stop having more children.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Old Brompton said:


> Fair enough. I understand your revulsion. The cost of maintaining and furthering civilisation and the (sometimes unpleasant) obligations it places upon us may be too much for some to bear.


You apparently share the same brute mentality as the criminals you would have punished in this way.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

IN LOST HORISON the protaganist Conway talks with his younger associate on the horror of an old hand operated wash ringer used as instrument of torture. Conway of course went on to lose and then (the reader is left to hope) reclaim Shangri-la. For the rest of us, there are nosegays of gaited communities, immersion in the arts and buttoning our top buttons with a tie not unlike an officer's gorget as reminder of breastplates and times past when men dressed as men and behaved so. Theres an old latin saying " when the dog is dead the fleas will leave." We need to train more good dogs, cull the bad ones and not forget the squirrels are vectors for both flea and plague. The option of monasticism is attractive, but as the High lama noted, only a refuge. As another writer, B.Traven wrote, " this is the real world muchachos, and you are in it.'


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

rip said:


> You apparently share the same brute mentality as the criminals you would have punished in this way.


As I wrote earlier, the historical record demonstrates time and again that civilisation requires the application of brutal force and violence if it is to survive. Only a fool believes that polite discussions over tea and scones will keep the barbarians at bay.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Hopefully Jan will correct any errors or omissions I make. Ba'rbaros was first used to designate a non greek speaking person. It's perjorative meaning was rejected by Plato as it told nothing of the group applied to. It later was applied to the increasing slave population that suported Hellenic civilization and Roman. I believe it was the Christian Emperor Cassiodocus who interpreted Barba ( beard) and rus( flat land) as all the people not living in cities but in the wild. And if I remember my pained reading of Claude Levi-Strauss in RACE ET HISTOIRE barbarianism is merely two trains, each with a set direction it believes correct and any brutish behavior arising from necessity, dependant on birth and geographic condition. I think I can distill our rich history into the simplicity of ' Us and them' the 'have and have nots' the 'want and want nots.' big suprise, Society is never fully equal in spite of all our various formulae of captialism, communism et al. Sewers, please remember, flow down from above.


----------



## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Old Brompton said:


> Fair enough. I understand your revulsion. The cost of maintaining and furthering civilisation and the (sometimes unpleasant) obligations it places upon us may be too much for some to bear.


A good gardener must pull the weeds and destroy them. They cannot be rehabilitated or made to be flowers. Civilization is no different. There are few that must be eliminated for the good of the many. It's a hard fact. Believers in a higher being think that faith can fix them. Liberal think that compassion, reform and education can fix them. That's not so. They've always been with us. It just never was such a big deal in the past when one poor bastard killed another poor bastard in the ghetto. We're just a lot better at keeping track and making a big deal about it in the media.

They just need to be weeded out. Life is not fair.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Trenditional said:


> MOM AND DAD!!!!
> 
> MOM OR DAD!!!
> 
> ...


Someone who gets it...plus 1!


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

Rather disturbing that some of you seem far too comfortable with fascism in the guise of "maintaining order."

And Old Brompton, a question - which do you cherish more, your picture of Oswald Mosley or P. W. Botha?

Karl


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Old Brompton said:


> Say what you will about the Romans, Ottomans, and Nazis, but they certainly knew how to maintain order. :aportnoy:


There's a general rule that whoever brings up Hitler first loses, but I don't think they were talking about people who praise him; that's way beyond the pale.

Thanks for the self-disclosure.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> Rather disturbing that some of you seem far too comfortable with fascism in the guise of "maintaining order."
> 
> ...


His profile lists California as his residence. A member of NSM California perhaps? 
https://www.nsm88ca.com/25points.html


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

It's amazing how a pretty cut and dried post of some obvious horror erects equaly cut and dried pinata strawdog replies. I suppose one could lay blame on yet another cut and dried substance the writers smoke while flaying about with a cyberspace cane at those pinatas in hopes of tickertape adulation exploding from on high. It's not going to happen. This particular forum has become a lost tooth we rub our tongue over, a scab we pick at with fingernails. The irony is the various protagonists are probably even more invisible and less substantive in real life than this fog called the internet. Men pulling levers behind curtains are mere hot air operators after all. The reason d'etre of this website is clothing. Andy has an enviable reputation and substantial asset in it. This forum has become an embaressment, one I share in causing. We've dug a pretty deep hole here, one easily mistaken for the sewer in this thread's title. First rule whn you look around and find your in a hole is to stop dig.............


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Kav said:


> This particular forum has become a lost tooth we rub our tongue over, a scab we pick at with fingernails. .


I've said it before... better a cesspool than an open sewer.


----------



## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

Old Brompton said:


> As I wrote earlier, the historical record demonstrates time and again that civilisation requires the application of brutal force and violence if it is to survive. Only a fool believes that polite discussions over tea and scones will keep the barbarians at bay.


I have a saying that applies to our society in general: "You get what you tolerate."

Our increasingly "liberal" educational system has preached, and our government has enforced, a kind of "blanket tolerance" for nearly two generations now. Our society's social immune system, while perhaps being a little over active in the past, has been effectively, methodically disabled. We are now just starting to experience the effect of this. It will get worse.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> Rather disturbing that some of you seem far too comfortable with fascism in the guise of "maintaining order."
> 
> ...


Hear, hear! +1


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

android said:


> A good gardener must pull the weeds and destroy them. They cannot be rehabilitated or made to be flowers. Civilization is no different. There are few that must be eliminated for the good of the many. It's a hard fact. Believers in a higher being think that faith can fix them. Liberal think that compassion, reform and education can fix them. That's not so. They've always been with us. It just never was such a big deal in the past when one poor bastard killed another poor bastard in the ghetto. We're just a lot better at keeping track and making a big deal about it in the media.
> 
> They just need to be weeded out. Life is not fair.


Right! Let's get down to hard cases here: Let's start with a few Jews, throw in some homosexuals and other deviants, not to forget retards and socialists and communists. Then we can really begin to form a perfect flower garden absent of all weeds.


----------



## android (Dec 8, 2004)

rip said:


> Right! Let's get down to hard cases here: Let's start with a few Jews, throw in some homosexuals and other deviants, not to forget retards and socialists and communists. Then we can really begin to form a perfect flower garden absent of all weeds.


Umm, those are not unacceptable BEHAVIORs. Murdering and raping are. Don't get me wrong, people should not be judged by who they are. But they should be judged swiftly and surely when they cause harm to others. That is were the US has gone wrong.


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

android said:


> A good gardener must pull the weeds and destroy them. They cannot be rehabilitated or made to be flowers. Civilization is no different. There are few that must be eliminated for the good of the many. It's a hard fact. Believers in a higher being think that faith can fix them. Liberal think that compassion, reform and education can fix them. That's not so. They've always been with us. It just never was such a big deal in the past when one poor bastard killed another poor bastard in the ghetto. We're just a lot better at keeping track and making a big deal about it in the media.
> 
> They just need to be weeded out. Life is not fair.


Well said.

And then there are those, represented by a few posters in this thread, who are quick to embrace the warm bosom of civilisation, yet are repulsed and intimidated by the idea of actually doing anything to fight for it. I think it is a sign of their moral failure. And they are not alone. The word 'cowardice' would come to mind, but I'm loathe to get into an _ad hominem_ exchange with these individuals. :icon_smile:


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> There's a general rule that whoever brings up Hitler first loses, but I don't think they were talking about people who praise him; that's way beyond the pale.
> 
> Thanks for the self-disclosure.


Not so quick, Jack. It is entirely possible, I would argue, to admire the counter-insurgency tactics of the Nazis (and the Romans and the Ottomans!) without endorsing Nazi ideology.

BTW, I think it is telling that you focus on the word Nazi. I wonder why that is? As you know, the Reich was utterly insignificant compared to, say, the Roman and Ottoman empires (or the Soviet empire, to use a modern example), who were far more brutal than the Nazis ever were. But what can we expect? For minds raised on shallow American pop culture, I guess the Nazis are the ultimate.

_Reductio ad Hitlerum_ indeed!
:icon_smile_wink:


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

While I don't always agree with Jack in political matters, I can't say that I think he's shallow or that he all that heavily influenced by pop culture.

I think Jack thinks through things and is not a "knee-jerk" liberal, even if he does have liberal opinions.

I agree with you that our culture is too permissive, but probably disagree at the length we need to go to correct it. Simply making people responsible for their actions and making them more responsible for the results of their actions will improve a lot of behavior.

While I don't think religion should be imposed on anyone (and even Christ does not want Christianity imposed), a bit more religion in our society would probably be a positive influence.


----------



## BDS (Jul 8, 2007)

Bertie


> I'm no friend to the vulgar American culture, but it's important to note this kind of violence is still an aberration, not the norm.


Of this, I'm not so sure. From what I see and read and hear, the norm term might apply more comfy, or its becoming so.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Old Brompton said:


> Well said.
> 
> And then there are those, represented by a few posters in this thread, who are quick to embrace the warm bosom of civilisation, yet are repulsed and intimidated by the idea of actually doing anything to fight for it. I think it is a sign of their moral failure. And they are not alone. The word 'cowardice' would come to mind, but I'm loathe to get into an _ad hominem_ exchange with these individuals. :icon_smile:


I just feel so safe and warm knowing that civilization is being protected by moral leaders like brave Old Brompton. Keep up the good fight! Is there a smiley for warm and fuzzy? Or maybe one for repulsed and intimidated?


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> I just feel so safe and warm knowing that civilization is being protected by moral leaders like brave Old Brompton. Keep up the good fight! Is there a smiley for warm and fuzzy? Or maybe one for repulsed and intimidated?


Why are you wasting time on AAAC? Shouldn't you be out finding some skirts to hide behind? :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Old Brompton said:


> Why are you wasting time on AAAC? Shouldn't you be out finding some skirts to hide behind? :icon_smile_wink:


From the man who decries _ad hominem _attacks.


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Well, sometimes you chaps present an irresistibly easy target. But it's all in good fun, RJ. :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Old Brompton said:


> Well said.
> 
> And then there are those, represented by a few posters in this thread, who are quick to embrace the warm bosom of civilisation, yet are repulsed and intimidated by the idea of actually doing anything to fight for it. I think it is a sign of their moral failure. And they are not alone. The word 'cowardice' would come to mind, but I'm loathe to get into an _ad hominem_ exchange with these individuals. :icon_smile:


What sophistic bullsh!t...Talk about moral failure! The cowardice you see is a mirror's reflection. I can certainly understand your unwillingness to engage in ad hominem attacks (BTW, ad hominem is sufficiently accepted into the language so as no longer to require italics or other indicators of another language). You obviously recognize the paucity of your argument, hence the absurdly weak little smileys at the end of your tirade. Yet how much more ad hominem can you get than to choose this person and that whom you would weed out?


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

rip said:


> Right! Let's get down to hard cases here: Let's start with a few Jews, throw in some homosexuals and other deviants, not to forget retards and socialists and communists. Then we can really begin to form a perfect flower garden absent of all weeds.


Yes, but when the weeds are all gone, what is next? Will the Petunias be too "weed like" compared to the Dandelions? Where will it stop? Should we just go back to dirt and see what sprouts up?


----------



## android (Dec 8, 2004)

I find it insane that anybody here thinks these 10 hoodlums have anything worthwhile to contribute to society and would side with them.

They raped the woman and forced her to fellate her pre-adolescent child and then set them on fire. 

And we are wrong for saying that they don't belong with us?

Why don't you sign up to have them come live with you and your wife? I'm sure that will demonstrate your kind and benevolent spirit.

What is wrong with you people? These kids are refuse, there is no fixing this. They are taking up space and breathing good air.


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

For those who believe control is not a by product of violence and fear, then you must not have been raised in a household with true discipline. I'd like to see by a show of hands, how many here feared their parents? I know I did. I know had I ever been arrested as a juvenile the last person I'd want called would have been my father. I would have been safer in jail with the adult prisoners. 

I was told once (I only needed to hear this once to know it was true), "I would love for you to respect me, but you will fear me." There are some who are going to think that is too harsh for a parent to say, but you know some children (myself included) don't see the big picture until later in life. Some children need bigger and stronger barriers to keep them on the right path. That being said, I never once doubted the love for me from my parents.

Parents need to understand that an ass whoopin is not only okay, but necessary. Teachers need to be able to do what is necessary (I'll grant within reason) to maintain control of their class. If the child is too out of control, then that child's parents need to be addressed as to why they are not teachnig their child proper manners. We as a society need to stop accepting improper behavior.

The garden analogy is a very good one. I don't believe anyone is talking about wiping out a race of people, but we do need to take drastic measures. We can not continue down this path. The level of violence and social disrespect shown by young people is scary and it doesn't seem to be getting better.

I still say we start in our own homes. Lead by example to your children. Teach your children right from wrong and hold them accountable for their actions. Make them understand that when they step out that front door, they not only represent themselves, but also their family. Instill the sense of pride in them that they'd never want to make their family look bad. If we start there, I think we can make progress. It will be slow, but eventually we'll see bigger changes.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

android said:


> I find it insane that anybody here thinks these 10 hoodlums have anything worthwhile to contribute to society and would side with them.
> 
> They raped the woman and forced her to fellate her pre-adolescent child and then set them on fire.
> 
> ...


No one has said that they support these 10.


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Old Brompton,

You admire the counter insurgency tactics of the Nazis? Does the massacre of Czech civilians at Lidice get you all hot and bothered? Perhaps the brutal destruction of Warsaw and suppression of the Warsaw Uprising really jazzes you? And you must be tickled pink by the 100,000 Jews and Ukranians murdered at Babi Yar!

One would hope you are joking. One would suspect you are not.

And a note to the moderators - its hard to take your complaints about civility or lack thereof in other threads seriously when you deign to remain silent about someone who openly praises Nazi brutality.

Karl


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

> American Culture is a Sewer that Produces its own Sewage


well...that's up for debate...but what isn't up for debate is the fact that we still produce the finest pasturized process cheese-product in the world...

Take that Switzerland!!!

_...sorry...just seemed like the mood needed a little lightening in here..._


----------



## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Old Brompton said:


> Is anyone surprised by what is happening? Horrible incidents like these stem from man's imperfect, animal nature. Nothing new has changed there. Human nature is the same as it was thousands of years ago. It cannot be perfected, no matter how much social engineering human beings are subjected to.
> 
> What _has_ changed, IMO, is the lack of will on the part of authorities to deal with these crimes. That is why they will continue. In a more reasonable society, the perpetrators of these atrocities would have been detained, maimed, and / or executed and the offending neighborhoods razed to the ground.


The problem really is that there are some groups of decision makers and voters who honestly believe that you CAN use social engineering instead of force. That's the fundamental misperception. (IMHO some sort of communist experiment gone "touchy-feely")



Old Brompton said:


> But American authorities, in particular, are prevented from acting by the prospect of accusations of "racism" and "bigotry," the machinations of the racial grievances lobby (and its implied threat of racial violence), and by the excessive power of legal and media elites.


You don't think that it's different in Europe, do you? Look at the race riots in Paris. Or what special rights muslims have in the UK. It's the same story everywhere...



Old Brompton said:


> Civilisation requires the application of brutal force and violence in order to survive. Without that force (or the threat of it), the barbarians are allowed to kill with impunity. Say what you will about the Romans, Ottomans, and Nazis, but they certainly knew how to maintain order. :aportnoy:


I wouldn't quite share your notion about the Nazis: if you look at those guys, some of them really were sort of organized criminals having come into power. Otherwise, I agree. To me, it looks as if we are living through the last days of the Roman Empire...


----------



## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Trenditional said:


> For those who believe control is not a by product of violence and fear, then you must not have been raised in a household with true discipline. I'd like to see by a show of hands, how many here feared their parents?


I didn't, but I wasn't a brute like those 10 kiddy rapers. As a matter of fact, if I had become undisciplined, I would have had to fear my parents. Sometimes, the abstract threat of force is enough...



> Parents need to understand that an ass whoopin is not only okay, but necessary. Teachers need to be able to do what is necessary (I'll grant within reason) to maintain control of their class. If the child is too out of control, then that child's parents need to be addressed as to why they are not teachnig their child proper manners. We as a society need to stop accepting improper behavior.


+1


----------



## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Albert said:


> I wouldn't quite share your notion about the Nazis: if you look at those guys, some of them really were sort of organized criminals having come into power.


A little thing to add: the Nazis, btw, didn't crack down on crime as rigorously as you might think. Effectively, you were jugded not for what you had done but for who you were. E.g., you could get 10 years imprisonment for stealing an apple if you were from a socially unwanted group. On the other hand you could get a small fine for shooting your wife if you were party official. As I said, they were criminals having come into power...


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Old Brompton,
> 
> You admire the counter insurgency tactics of the Nazis? Does the massacre of Czech civilians at Lidice get you all hot and bothered? Perhaps the brutal destruction of Warsaw and suppression of the Warsaw Uprising really jazzes you? And you must be tickled pink by the 100,000 Jews and Ukranians murdered at Babi Yar!
> 
> ...


Karl, we don't usually agree on many things, but you are spot on with this one. +1


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rip,

Lately we have been agreeing on alot of things - either a sign that the end is nigh or that the Interchange has taken on an excessive and unsavory far-right tone in recent weeks.

Karl


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Rip,
> 
> Lately we have been agreeing on alot of things - either a sign that the end is nigh or that the Interchange has taken on an excessive and unsavory far-right tone in recent weeks.
> 
> Karl


Both, I think. My daughter has been cautioning me that we are living in the End Times.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Nasty thread...*

Wow, pretty nasty thread, both the content of the OP and then some of the reactions to it.

Maybe we should just go back to something we should all be able to all agree on: those teenagers committed a series of deplorable acts and should be removed permanently from society until we can be sure they will never again commit such heinous deeds. If we cannot all agree to that, then society is indeed doomed.


----------



## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Laxplayer said:


> I just feel so safe and warm knowing that civilization is being protected by moral leaders like brave Old Brompton. Keep up the good fight!


Indeed. Cheers for Old Brompton!


----------



## BDS (Jul 8, 2007)

"And it all started with the restaurants!", this is what an old docent woman in a local museum told me when talking about the culture degradation around, mentioning the dropping the mandatory uniforms from waiters, but seriously, w/o wanting to raise an old cloud of stinking dust, the all-pervading TV medium should be seriously curtailed and guided. I see it as the main reason for the horrid state of affairs of the Western culture. No counter argument of whatever kind can seriously refute the real danger it presents and protect the society while keeping TV as it is. All of them pro-TV arguments, IMO, are really an attitude of hiding beyond your fingers, if you get what I mean.


----------



## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

BDS said:


> "And it all started with the restaurants!", this is what an old docent woman in a local museum told me when talking about the culture degradation around, mentioning the dropping the mandatory uniforms from waiters, but seriously, w/o wanting to raise an old cloud of stinking dust, the all-pervading TV medium should be seriously curtailed and guided. I see it as the main reason for the horrid state of affairs of the Western culture. No counter argument of whatever kind can seriously refute the real danger it presents and protect the society while keeping TV as it is. All of them pro-TV arguments, IMO, are really an attitude of hiding beyond your fingers, if you get what I mean.


I think TV can be quite like a drug. I refuse to have one since 1998.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Albert said:


> I think TV can be quite like a drug. I refuse to have one since 1998.


So what do you watch Albert?


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> I just feel so safe and warm knowing that civilization is being protected by moral leaders like brave Old Brompton. Keep up the good fight! Is there a smiley for warm and fuzzy? Or maybe one for repulsed and intimidated?


Old Brompton is perfect support for the theory of reincarnation; in his case, Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce), infamous British fascist and Nazi apologist.


----------



## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Howard said:


> So what do you watch Albert?


Howard,

I sometimes watch people in the pub. People on the street or the tube. DVDs on my computer. Some youtube clips. Operas and drama.

Sometimes I don't watch but only listen: music or BBC programs.

Since 2000, I actually didn't technically have time to regularly watch TV. I wasn't too unhappy about that, to be honest...

What do you watch?

Cheers,
A.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Albert said:


> Howard,
> 
> I sometimes watch people in the pub. People on the street or the tube. DVDs on my computer. Some youtube clips. Operas and drama.
> 
> ...


I love to watch a lot of old comedies on television,that's my forte.


----------



## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Howard said:


> I love to watch a lot of old comedies on television,that's my forte.


Howard,

That's a fair point, me too. Fortunately, most that I like are available on DVD, so I can just watch them on my laptop.

But, honestly, I don't miss the regular / average TV program. We had TV in our hotel rooms this summer and my good lady sometimes switched it on for background diversion. I was a bit appalled by the TV program. For my taste, it got even worse than it already was in 1998.

Cheers,
A.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Albert said:


> Howard,
> 
> That's a fair point, me too. Fortunately, most that I like are available on DVD, so I can just watch them on my laptop.
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on what kind of laptop you can play DVDs on.


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

rip said:


> What sophistic bullsh!t...Talk about moral failure! The cowardice you see is a mirror's reflection. I can certainly understand your unwillingness to engage in ad hominem attacks...





Karl89 said:


> You admire the counter insurgency tactics of the Nazis?


Well, yes, I suppose I do, just as I admire the COIN tactics of the Romans and Ottomans. I am not making a moral value judgement one way or another. You apparently find this a very difficult viewpoint to accept, so I guess it is your problem--not mine. There is no need to get hysterical over it.

Tantrums aside, the original argument stands. :icon_smile:


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Albert said:


> I think TV can be quite like a drug. I refuse to have one since 1998.


That's very admirable. Wish I could say the same. With few exceptions, television is garbage. It is worrying to see how strongly people, including grown men and women, are influenced by it.


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

OB,



Old Brompton said:


> Well, yes, I suppose I do, just as I admire the COIN tactics of the Romans and Ottomans. I am not making a moral value judgement one way or another. You apparently find this a very difficult viewpoint to accept, so I guess it is your problem--not mine. There is no need to get hysterical over it.
> 
> Tantrums aside, the original argument stands. :icon_smile:


Are you really that clueless? You freely admit that you admire tactics like the the murder of Czech civilians at Lidice, the destruction of Warsaw and elements of the Holocaust and you say its my problem. Not only that, you profess admiration for the Armenian genocide now to boot! I'll ask my great-aunt who was a girl in Czechoslovakia during the war if she, too, found Nazi counter-insurgency tactics admirable next time I see her.

If the moderators don't censure you for the above comments then the inmates have really taken over the asylum.

Karl


----------



## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Old Brompton said:


> That's very admirable. Wish I could say the same. With few exceptions, television is garbage. It is worrying to see how strongly people, including grown men and women, are influenced by it.


Brompton,

Independence from TV is very simple to achieve. Just don't buy a set and invest the money in a pair of good shoes instead.  Much better value.

Best,
A.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> OB,
> 
> Are you really that clueless? You freely admit that you admire tactics like the the murder of Czech civilians at Lidice, the destruction of Warsaw and elements of the Holocaust and you say its my problem. Not only that, you profess admiration for the Armenian genocide now to boot! I'll ask my great-aunt who was a girl in Czechoslovakia during the war if she, too, found Nazi counter-insurgency tactics admirable next time I see her.
> 
> ...


As vile and disgusting as Old Brompton's view might be, and I can't imagine anything much more vile than the Nazis' behavior and his support for them, I don't really like the idea of anyone's viewpoints or ideas being censured or judged outside of this thread. This is, or should be, the marketplace of ideas, no matter how outrageous, and it is within this marketplace that they should be weighed. For a moderator to then step in and censure someone, the free-flow of those ideas will slow and ultimately cease. I can understand some challenges when it get deeply and nastily ad hominem, but short of that...

My closest friend in Prague is the daughter of one of the relatively few jewish families who survived the holocaust; I'm sure they would have an interesting point of view about this.


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> OB, Are you really that clueless?
> Karl


Good Lord, do I really need to spell it out for you?

My argument (again!) is that Nazi COIN tactics were extremely effective, particularly against Communist partisans in places such as occupied France, and that it is possible to admire them and write about them in an objective fashion without advocating national socialist ideology or genocide.

I really don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but I find it curious that even though I mentioned the Roman and Ottoman empires, both of which were responsible for far more destruction than were the Nazis, you have chosen to latch on to the Nazis whilst ignoring the first two examples.

So my question is, are you really this obtuse, or are you trying to score some brownie points in a silly game of "moral one-upmanship" in front of your fellow posters? :icon_smile_big:


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

OB,

In addition to praising the Nazis you now can't seem to read. In my previous post I mentioned your love of the Ottoman Empire's counter-insurgency tactics and hence your admiration for the Armenian genocide. You'd be a big hit in Yerevan. I won't hold the Romans to the same standards that I do for societies of the twentieth century. But standards should mean little to a man of your ilk who is unwilling to make a moral judgement on Nazi tactics.

Really stop posting such nonsense as all you do is make the Interchange more toxic.

Karl


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Many years past I met a chinese Benedictine monk from Saint Andrew's Priory ( now Abbey) in Valermo California. His forearms were permanently disfigured from being hung in shackles by the communists. I was an early friend and student of one of the first tibetan lamas to immigrate to America. His forearms were permanently disfigured from being hung in shackles by the communists. I arranged to visit the priory and invited Rinpoche. I will forever remember those two men seeing in each other's robed foreams a commonality that went beyond all else. Almost. That night we rose for midnight prayers. Benedictine and Buddhist both offered prayers for their former captors. It's easy to react to such horrors. At this moment a monstrous story is unfolding ( between greater coverage of Lindsey Lohan) of a wonderfull family brutalised and nearly wiped out. Somehow I think those two long departed monks are a better example than Herr Shicklegruber.


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> OB, Really stop posting such nonsense as all you do is make the Interchange more toxic.
> 
> Karl


Stop being so emotional.

It is possible to assess history, warfare, and politics without resorting to cheap sentiment, but apparently it's something beyond your abilities at the moment. I mean, you have blatantly ignored my arguments, preferring instead to try to score points in your little game of competitive altruism. Good for you.

Civilisation requires the application of brutality and ruthlessness if it is to survive. No mercy, no remorse. The perpetrators of the Nashville Massacre hate crime, as well as other atrocities, should hang.

We are definitely on opposing sides, should it come to that (and I think it will in time). Let's leave it at that, shall we? :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Kav said:


> Many years past I met a chinese Benedictine monk from Saint Andrew's Priory ( now Abbey) in Valermo California. His forearms were permanently disfigured from being hung in shackles by the communists. I was an early friend and student of one of the first tibetan lamas to immigrate to America. His forearms were permanently disfigured from being hung in shackles by the communists. I arranged to visit the priory and invited Rinpoche. I will forever remember those two men seeing in each other's robed foreams a commonality that went beyond all else. Almost. That night we rose for midnight prayers. Benedictine and Buddhist both offered prayers for their former captors. It's easy to react to such horrors. At this moment a monstrous story is unfolding ( between greater coverage of Lindsey Lohan) of a wonderfull family brutalised and nearly wiped out. Somehow I think those two long departed monks are a better example than Herr Shicklegruber.


I think your understanding of history, both German and Chinese, is egregiously skewed. Yes, the horrors inflicted by the Chinese communists on the Tibetans, or on their own people, is enormous and not to be trivialized, but to equate it in any way with the horrors inflicted by "Herr Schickelgruber" and his pals on the Jews, the Gypsies, the homosexuals, the retarded, or the Turks on the Armenians is to display for all to see, a remarkable ignorance of these atrocities.


----------



## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

I'm afraid it looks as if Kav has been caught by the self-appointed AAAC PC Police.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Old Brompton said:


> Stop being so emotional.
> 
> It is possible to assess history, warfare, and politics without resorting to cheap sentiment, but apparently it's something beyond your abilities at the moment. I mean, you have blatantly ignored my arguments, preferring instead to try to score points in your little game of competitive altruism. Good for you.
> 
> ...


What you suggest is the antithesis of civilization; it is a return to the very essence of barbarism, and comes from minds far too small and too lazy to explore the difficult pathways and actions that lead to a true civilization. And for God's sake, Man, stop with those stupid little smilies.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

RIP, I-will-type-real-slow-so- you -understand-my -post. -This-thread- began-as-reaction-to-a-act-of-hieneous-nature.- The-evisceral-reaction- by- almost-anyone-is -elimination-of-such-a threat- to-society.- Comparisons- to-and-acceptance- of-equal-brutality-by -infamous-world-leaders-or- empires-were-made.-I-countered-with-example-of- two-men-who-overcame-such-reaction,-showing-the-intrinsic-superiority-of-their-beliefs-and value-to-society-under-stress.-Insinuating-I-am-ingnorant- of-the-armenian-genocide-when- nearby-Glendale- has-one-of-the-USA's-largest- armenian-communities-and-my- Chabbad-nieghbors- have four-elders-with-#tattoos-on-their-forearms-is-about-as-insulting-as-the-glassy-eyed-born-again-ernestly-asking-if I-know-J-A-Z-U-S .-The-answer-is-yes,-probably- a-great-deal-more-than-I-care-to share,-given-I am-not-as-forgiving-as-those-two-monks.Still, -My-license-plate-is-not-framed-in- the-wrought-iron-legend-ARBEITET-MACH-FREI.


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Old Brompton said:


> Stop being so emotional.
> 
> It is possible to assess history, warfare, and politics without resorting to cheap sentiment, but apparently it's something beyond your abilities at the moment. I mean, you have blatantly ignored my arguments, preferring instead to try to score points in your little game of competitive altruism. Good for you.
> 
> ...


Karl89 is right.

Old Brompton: you need to pick out examples done by healthy minds. The Nazis, etc. didn't have healthy minds: they were extremely sick.


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> They were just poor misguided youth who would have been at afterschool basketball practice shooting hoops if the evil Republicans wouldn't have killed those programs off.
> 
> Obviously the solution to this crime is more federal money instead of.....immediate execution behind the court house. Bailiff, lead these men outside.


This is the error of the liberal mind. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, nor did I depend on the government to entertain me. For centries kids (in more poverty) have entertained themselves as upright decent people. This government handout hogwash that you believe in has brainwashed many people who would be better off useing their own minds.

It is a shame to read such utter nonsense as the "government is god" and can take care of all of your needs. If the people in government are untrustworthy- why do people believe in this "government is god" hogwash?


----------



## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

rip said:


> the horrors inflicted by the Chinese communists on the Tibetans, or on their own people, is enormous and not to be trivialized, but to equate it in any way with the horrors inflicted by "Herr Schickelgruber" and his pals (...) is to display for all to see, a remarkable ignorance of these atrocities.


Rip,

If I follow Kav's strain of thought correctly, he tells the story of two monks who had been grieviously (sp?) harmed by Chinese authorities. Now, instead of seeking revenge, they are actually praying for their former enemies. Finally, he concludes that this example of forgiving is a better thing to talk about than Adolf.

No comparison of various oppressive regimes at all.

Cheers,
A.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Kav said:


> RIP, I-will-type-real-slow-so- you -understand-my -post. -This-thread- began-as-reaction-to-a-act-of-hieneous-nature.- The-evisceral-reaction- by- almost-anyone-is -elimination-of-such-a threat- to-society.- Comparisons- to-and-acceptance- of-equal-brutality-by -infamous-world-leaders-or- empires-were-made.-I-countered-with-example-of- two-men-who-overcame-such-reaction,-showing-the-intrinsic-superiority-of-their-beliefs-and value-to-society-under-stress.-Insinuating-I-am-ingnorant- of-the-armenian-genocide-when- nearby-Glendale- has-one-of-the-USA's-largest- armenian-communities-and-my- Chabbad-nieghbors- have four-elders-with-#tattoos-on-their-forearms-is-about-as-insulting-as-the-glassy-eyed-born-again-ernestly-asking-if I-know-J-A-Z-U-S .-The-answer-is-yes,-probably- a-great-deal-more-than-I-care-to share,-given-I am-not-as-forgiving-as-those-two-monks.Still, -My-license-plate-is-not-framed-in- the-wrought-iron-legend-ARBEITET-MACH-FREI.


You are correct; I misunderstood your intent. To hold the actions of these monks up as exemplary is excellent.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Old Brompton said:


> That's very admirable. Wish I could say the same. With few exceptions, television is garbage. It is worrying to see how strongly people, including grown men and women, are influenced by it.


Tv Shows aren't the same as they used to be when I was growing up in the 80's.Now mostly every show you see has become very sleazy.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

PAX RIP, go in peace, not pieces. And WA, My family still has the set of silver brought over from Europe. It's a bit banged up, one spoon suffering grievous injury in the garbage disposal before flying back out and imbedding itself in the wall. Better a silver spoon than foot in my mouth as a former texas governor commented about another.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Howard said:


> Tv Shows aren't the same as they used to be when I was growing up in the 80's.Now mostly every show you see has become very sleazy.


All too true! Now and then, however, something awesome this way comes. _Planet Earth_, done by the BBC and shown in the US with a narration by Sigourney Weaver, has to be the most remarkable compilation of nature filming ever done. If you haven't seen it, and have any appreciation at all for nature photography and film, run to your nearest Borders or B&N and buy it. I recommend the British version, however, for the narration by David Attenborough, the dean of nature narraters. It's a bit pricey, at $89 or so, but worth every cent.


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> PAX RIP, go in peace, not pieces. And WA, My family still has the set of silver brought over from Europe. It's a bit banged up, one spoon suffering grievous injury in the garbage disposal before flying back out and imbedding itself in the wall. Better a silver spoon than foot in my mouth as a former texas governor commented about another.


I don't know, Kav, the way you talk is as though you were born with a silver bit in your mouth.

I wish I got to ride horses as much as you did and still do.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

rip said:


> All too true! Now and then, however, something awesome this way comes. _Planet Earth_, done by the BBC and shown in the US with a narration by Sigourney Weaver, has to be the most remarkable compilation of nature filming ever done. If you haven't seen it, and have any appreciation at all for nature photography and film, run to your nearest Borders or B&N and buy it. I recommend the British version, however, for the narration by David Attenborough, the dean of nature narraters. It's a bit pricey, at $89 or so, but worth every cent.


I think it's on cable TV but anyway have you finished it yet?


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Howard said:


> I think it's on cable TV but anyway have you finished it yet?


Twice over, actually. I had seen bits and pieces of it on public TV, but when I got the DVDs, I took one entire day and watched it beginning to end. Since then I have watched it again, a chapter at a time, to the end. It is truly magnificent!


----------

