# London vs. New York bespoke suits



## prof (Dec 2, 2004)

From a value perspective, am I better off having a bespoke suit made in New York or Savile Row? Several Savile Row websites I've seen refer to their bespoke suits "starting at" the equivalent of $3,000-3,500. That's pretty pricey for me. Any advice?
Thanks


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

New York is if anything slightly more expensive, on average. The advantages (if you live here) are more fittings, more personal attention from the tailor/cutter, less waiting, and near recourse to the tailor if anything goes wrong. I have found, with very little exception, a great willingness on the part of the New York tailors to make sure clients are happy and fix nagging little problems even after you have paid up and taken the suit. Savile Row tends to resist this for their overseas customers. Not that I am blaming them; it just does not fit their business model.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

That's the starting price for benchmade bespoke in the US also.

Corvato is around that price as are Raphael, Gagilano and Nicolosi. 
Shattuck and Logsdail are a bit more. 
Don't know what Cheo comes in at but I believe it somewhere around there.

Sanitate is a bit more still (I believe) and if you have to ask about Fioravanti...

In the between Mr. Ned and Corvato range, you have Lucio / Traguardo and Ercole. I hope to be able to report on those two soon but I believe that if you're considering Savile Row, these guys aren't quite what you are looking for.

A couple of things to think about:

*Time* - unless you travel to London with some frequency, the suit will likely take about a year if the tailor visits twice a year (which I believe is pretty standard). Of course, quality takes time but if this is your first bespoke suit, the wait may be a little harder than it will be when you already have a couple of good suits.

*Process* - I get the impression (and please, someone with more experience, correct me if I am wrong) that American tailors are more open to collaboration. Of course, some SR houses are more flexible when it comes to tweaks but they don't seem to let?/encourage?/tolerate? you to play fashion designer to the extent that some American tailors will allow (I don't know if any of them really _encourage_ it but they seem used to it).

If you know what you want and you want something relatively non-standard, A&S may not be your best bet. You may be better served by the famously flexible Shattuck or Nicolosi. If, however, you want a trademark Huntsman jacket, it may be best to let them do what they're known for.

It's a tough question and one that I muse about myself. By next Spring, I hope to know well enough what I want to (and to have contributed enough to the ole' 401K to allow myself to) order a high-end bespoke suit and am torn between ordering it from a SR house on one of their trips or else going to the famous Raphael for the reasons I cited.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Cheo is apparently not taking new clients. The cheapest honest-to-God handmade bespoke suit that I know of in New York is Nicolosi, IF you do CTM (that's for you, Despos) or choose one of the bolts he has on hand. These are hit or miss, mostly miss, but there are a few gems. Last I heard, he charges $3,000 for that. His prices tend to be unpredictable, so who knows these days. Prices zoom up when you order out of books, in part because Vincent orders more cloth than anyone else (say, 4.5 for a standard two-piece rather than 3.5; but he builds in a hell of a lot of inlays). Vests are a mind-numbing $1,500, no exceptions.

I have seen Nicolosi suits that fit spectacularly, and some that didn't fit so well. All of them are uniformly well made. His sewing and finishing are in my opinion the best in the city. And he is an excellent -- excellent -- trouser cutter.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Cantabrigian said:


> *Process* - I get the impression (and please, someone with more experience, correct me if I am wrong) that American tailors are more open to collaboration. Of course, some SR houses are more flexible when it comes to tweaks but they don't seem to let?/encourage?/tolerate? you to play fashion designer to the extent that some American tailors will allow (I don't know if any of them really _encourage_ it but they seem used to it).


Based on the recent experiences of a few friends, I would say that Poole appears to be quite accomodating to unusual requests and willing to make (or try to make) almost anything.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

In fact, I have found many -- if not most -- Savile Row firms willing to be far more flexible than popular opinion suggests. That said, virtually all tailors have preferred approaches...or styles and techniques to which they themselves are best suited. That's true in the US as well as the UK. Moreover, some tailors, while not maintaining a "house" style, may not have the skill or experience to meet all customer wants and needs. The best course is to have a rather candid discussion with the tailor, be very explicit about one's preferences, and see as many examples of that shop's work as possible.

On the broader question of New York versus Savile Row firms, this fairly recent discussion on dealing with Savile Row tailors in the United States might be of some assistance:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=54314


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

manton said:


> And he is an excellent -- excellent -- trouser cutter.


Do you know how much he charges for odd trousers. I've heard it's a lot but I've never heard quite how much.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Cantabrigian said:


> Do you know how much he charges for odd trousers. I've heard it's a lot but I've never heard quite how much.


I think it's $1,500 as well.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

That is ridiculous.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

whnay. said:


> That is ridiculous.


It depends on what the tailor is trying to do. My understanding is that Nicolosi really, really hates making vests and odd trousers. Given this, his pricing structure makes a lot of sense.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Cantabrigian said:


> That's the starting price for benchmade bespoke in the US also.
> 
> Corvato is around that price as are Raphael, Gagilano and Nicolosi.
> Shattuck and Logsdail are a bit more.
> ...


Sanitate makes a spectacular suit. Here's one of mine:


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I have a personal opinion that English tailors are both better in skill and style. I've seen Fioravanti's suits and I'm not that impressed. The NYC tailors are very expensive for the product imho. Too much overhead or catering to a different market I suppose.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> It depends on what the tailor is trying to do. My understanding is that Nicolosi really, really hates making vests and odd trousers. Given this, his pricing structure makes a lot of sense.


That sounds like bad customer service to me. I can understand perhaps if someone does not buy a suit but Nicolosi should offer reasonable prices on trousers as a service to his clients. That's a red flag.



> I get the impression (and please, someone with more experience, correct me if I am wrong) that American tailors are more open to collaboration.


I'd say the opposite is true based on my experience...


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> I have a personal opinion that English tailors are both better in skill and style. I've seen Fioravanti's suits and I'm not that impressed. The NYC tailors are very expensive for the product imho. Too much overhead or catering to a different market I suppose.


I used to believe that for the longest time myself as I was incredibly enamored of the Savile Row mystique. However, after having seen first hand bespoke suits from Poole, A&S, Kilgour, Davies and G&H on clients I can fairly say that my Raphael suits fit and look much much better. The one Corvato suit I have seen also looked better than the SR examples.

This is not to say that the SR suits were bad, but simply not as precise in fit as some of the NYC product I have seen.

Then again your experience in NYC may be different - which tailor did you use?

Panzer


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## LotharoftheHillPeople (Apr 30, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> I have a personal opinion that English tailors are both better in skill and style. I've seen Fioravanti's suits and I'm not that impressed. The NYC tailors are very expensive for the product imho. Too much overhead or catering to a different market I suppose.


Wow. You're not really suggesting that English tailors are more skillful and stylish based on your viewing one NY tailor's work are you? I assume you have an expansive, first-hand knowledge of both NY and English tailors to make that statement, or else you would not have made such an overly broad generalization?

I really am not trying to be contrarian here, but why is Nicolosi charging what he wants to charge for odd pants a "red flag," as it were? As with all other things, if you do not like the price, then do not buy the trousers. It really is that easy.

I was unaware that tailors (or any other custom market) owes their clients a duty to discount their time and services. But, then again, I am not all-knowing.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> You're not really suggesting that English tailors are more skillful and stylish based on your viewing one NY tailor's work are you?


Of course not, I've spoken to and seen the work of several although not Raphael's work. I was treated more warmly in London and the tailors at A&S asked the most insightful questions of all. Very professional.



> I really am not trying to be contrarian here, but why is Nicolosi charging what he wants to charge for odd pants a "red flag," as it were? As with all other things, if you do not like the price, then do not buy the trousers. It really is that easy.


I think he should set reasonable prices for trousers if he is a good tailor. Many people will wisely buy two sets for getting extra mileage out of a suit. The above comments make it sound like he is setting a ridiculous price to discourage people, to me that is a red flag since he seems to not be thinking about serving his customers.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> I think he should set reasonable prices for trousers if he is a good tailor. Many people will wisely buy two sets for getting extra mileage out of a suit. The above comments make it sound like he is setting a ridiculous price to discourage people, to me that is a red flag since he seems to not be thinking about serving his customers.


I think Nicolosi, being the master of his own services, is entitled to charge whatever he wants for his services. The fact that his pricing structure doesn't meet with your approval doesn't mean that he isn't a good tailor; and provided that he is perfectly up-front with potential clients about his rates, there is nothing about his practices that bespeak bad service. If anyone doesn't like what he charges for particular items, he shouldn't do business with Nicolosi.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Well it seems to be a red flag to me. Sure he can charge what he wants to in our market-based economy but you would think trouser prices would be reasonable; jackets are far more complex to do.

If a customer is spending $4K+ on multiple bespoke suits, you would expect a very high level of customer service.


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## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

Is it about the same price range to get bespoke in Milano, Roma or Napoli?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm not sure about Napoli but Rome is more expensive than Milan.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> Well it seems to be a red flag to me. Sure he can charge what he wants to in our market-based economy but you would think trouser prices would be reasonable; jackets are far more complex to do.


I doubt that he prices odd trousers as he does because he finds them diproportionately difficult to produce. Rather, for whatever reason, he doesn't like to do them and prices them at such a level that all but the most enthusiastic clients won't order them.



> If a customer is spending $4K+ on multiple bespoke suits, you would expect a very high level of customer service.


And I'm sure that Nicolosi provides it. The price that he charges for odd trousers has nothing whatever to do with his level of service.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> he doesn't like to do them and prices them at such a level that all but the most enthusiastic clients won't order them.


Well okay then, but that just appears selfish and unfriendly to me.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

jcusey said:


> It depends on what the tailor is trying to do. My understanding is that Nicolosi really, really hates making vests and odd trousers. Given this, his pricing structure makes a lot of sense.


I would tend to doubt that's the reason.

As I understand it, he doesn't _make_ either per se. He cuts the pattern and cloth and the making is done by trouser and vest makers.

So perhaps he just really hates cutting trousers and for that reason charges $500 over what I take to be roughly the average to scare people away.

I have, however, seen several people with extensive experience with bespoke makers refer to Nicolosi as the best trouser cutter around. Given that, I would tend to think that he enjoys to some extent it and that the price reflects the quality and desirability of the product.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

GMF said:


> Sanitate makes a spectacular suit.


I have been planning on stopping buy Sanitate's shop.

I've heard it enough times from enough people to believe that he farms most if not all of the work out. But I recently saw three Sanitate suits which had an almost incredible amount of immacuately done handwork. I did not see them on the intended recipient so I can't speak to the fit but the quality of construction appeared (at least to my philistine eye) to be very, very high.

I think that he's more on the expensive end of the NY makers. I think a two-piece suit starts around 4k (for his highest line - though I have had the pricing structure explained to me more than once and I don't understand it).


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## bespoke therapy (May 12, 2005)

Napoli bespoke ( one data point) is $5-6K


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Cantabrigian said:


> So perhaps he just really hates cutting trousers and for that reason charges $500 over what I take to be roughly the average to scare people away. I have, however, seen several people with extensive experience with bespoke makers refer to Nicolosi as the best trouser cutter around. Given that, I would tend to think that he enjoys to some extent it and that the price reflects the quality and desirability of the product.


I would tend to agree, though I'm not sure that his premium is that much higher than other comparable tailors. My guess is that most bespoke Savile Row trousers run in the 600+GPB/1200USD range.


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## JohnnyDeeper (Jul 22, 2006)

Can someone post contact info for Raphael? Thanks.

I have seen a post here some time ago that Rapahel takes measurements for a great shirtmaker in Genoa. Is this still true?

What are the prices like?


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Savile Row by Raphael
(212) 888-6887

His suits start at $4,000 and are worth every penny. 

He also takes measurements for shirts that are made in Rome by Mimmo Siviglia (sp?) - $450 / shirt with a minimum order of 4. Real bespoke with a muslin fitting.

Panzer


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> I'm not sure about Napoli but Rome is more expensive than Milan.


I have had the opposite experience, in finding Roman bespoke makers to charge on average less than the Milanese. In fact, the further south in Italy you go, the cheaper things tend to get. On average.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

jcusey said:


> My understanding is that Nicolosi really, really hates making vests and odd trousers. Given this, his pricing structure makes a lot of sense.





Cantabrigian said:


> I would tend to doubt that's the reason.


No, that is in fact precisely the reason.



> As I understand it, he doesn't _make_ either per se. He cuts the pattern and cloth and the making is done by trouser and vest makers.


He doens't make his own trousers; no NY tailor that I know of does. But he does make his own vests. The only other who makes the vest himself is Shattuck.


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## RHC 'Fred fan' (Jul 29, 2006)

*best place for trousers only bespoke*

hi, because of the discussion on trousers in this thread, I thought this would be a good place to solicit opinions on where the best place to go for bespoke only trousers would be, I'm interested in someone in NYC (most likely- but I live in D.C. - so D.C. or Philly are also options)....but, I am interested in high quality bespoke trousers for formal evening, events, etc. (non-suited) no jacket - I like someone who has some good bolts of fabrics that would look good as pants only, so it wouldn't look too much like pants borrowed from a suit&#8230;budget is quite flexible if I can get what I'm looking for, but I would prefer less than $1K a pair as I would like to start with 3 or so - since as 'manton' has said they are not made on premises (shops in Brooklyn, etc.?) Is there a place to go directly for better pricing or a place that specializes in pants, who would be the best for trousers only? I also would like to specify some of the details - pocket locations, other special details, etc.


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## JohnnyDeeper (Jul 22, 2006)

Am I thinking of a different tailor in NYC who works with a Genoa shirtmaker?

Panzer, How long does it take for the shirts to be made, start to finish? 
How do they compare in terms of fit/quality to other shirtmakers?



Panzeraxe said:


> Savile Row by Raphael
> (212) 888-6887
> 
> His suits start at $4,000 and are worth every penny.
> ...


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

manton said:


> No, that is in fact precisely the reason.


Hmmm... How 'bout that - do you know why he dislikes trousers and vests so much?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm amazed by this. Why would a tailor not keep production of both trouser and jacket in house for quality control?

Am I the only one who expects the tailor to do everything with their own team? Isn't that what we are paying these high prices for?

I'm also curious to find out who is making these trouser in NYC...is it Greenfield? Is it artisanal?

I'm starting to think A&S is the way to go...


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

A&S outsource their tailoring, as does almost every other SR firm. The firm does the measurement and cutting, but the actual putting together of the suit is done outside.

--Andre


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

whnay. said:


> That is ridiculous.


To give you some context, Brooks recently wanted $800 for a pair of odd trousers in a simple 120s fitted by a tailor who does only MTM alterations assisted by rather annoying salesman.

That not to say that simply because there is something else less reasonable that 1500 is reasonable. But prices for bespoke items are depressingly high.

Either everyone is pulling the wool over customer's eyes and they get together later and laugh about it or a custom-made garment of very high quality is just expensive.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Andre Yew said:


> A&S outsource their tailoring, as does almost every other SR firm. The firm does the measurement and cutting, but the actual putting together of the suit is done outside.


Not according to their web site. They even have photos of their work rooms on Savile Row.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

I only see the cutters on the A&S website, but I was wrong about A&S outsourcing after checking other sources. They do have their own tailors in-house.

--Andre


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I'm amazed by this. Why would a tailor not keep production of both trouser and jacket in house for quality control?
> 
> Am I the only one who expects the tailor to do everything with their own team? Isn't that what we are paying these high prices for?
> 
> ...


custom tailors make the patterns,for the jackets,trousers,and vests. they do the cutting, tryons, and coatmakeing. but if there is not enough volume to employ a full time pant maker this must be done outside. this is the same for the vest making. these contract workers are chosen for the quality of there workmanship. anyone here who is in the business world understands this situation. oh by the way quality pant or vest makers dont come cheap. so its not a matter of saving money.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Cantabrigian said:


> Hmmm... How 'bout that - do you know why he dislikes trousers and vests so much?


I don't think he hates making trousers, which in any case he does not make; he sends them out. I can't really say why he therefore charges so much than other tailors do the same amount of work cutting, and pay the same amount to the same trousermakers. If you think about his pricing structure for too long, it does not make any sense. If he is willing to make a suit for $3,000 and insists on $1,500 for odd trousers, then you might conclude that he would charge $1,500 for an odd jacket. Try that logic on him and see how far it gets you.

He has, however, specifically said that he does not like cutting or making vests. Maybe, being from Sicily where it is so hot, he is not used to seeing them and not deeply trained in making them. I don't really know. I didn't explore the matter with him after he made it clear that $1,500 was his price, and he could not be budged for any reason.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> I'm amazed by this. Why would a tailor not keep production of both trouser and jacket in house for quality control?


Both because trouser-making is a specialty, and one cannot specialize in everything, and because of the volume issue which a tailor explained above.



> Am I the only one who expects the tailor to do everything with their own team?


I don't know if you are the only one, but I can say that trouser outsourcing does not bother me in the slightest, nor does it trouble any of my friends who get their clothes made in NY or London. Some of the Italian firms have their own trouser makers, but those business run on a somewhat different model.



> Isn't that what we are paying these high prices for?


Not really. Why should where something is made count for more than how well it fits and how well it is made? The NY trouser makers do excellent work. The sewing and construction from the two best are top of the line. I doubt very much that if the trousers were made in the tailors' shops they would be any better. In fact, they just might be marginally worse, since all the in-house tailors that I know of are coatmakers and much less experienced at making trousers.

As to fit, that's up to your tailor/cutter to get right. So the high price is partly justified if your tailor/cutter gives his trouser maker a spot-on bundle of cut trouser parts that he can make into a perfectly fitting trouser. And it is partly justified if your tailor is skilled enough to remedy any little nagging problems with the finished trousers when he fits them on you.



> I'm also curious to find out who is making these trouser in NYC...is it Greenfield? Is it artisanal?


There are a handful of very small shops that do the bulk of the work for the top tailors. As far as I know, they don't take private clients, and they would probably not do such a great job if they did because these guys are not trained and experienced cutters. There are a few others who will take private clients and who charge quite a bit less, but the trade-off is that their work is not quite as fine and their cutting skills are not equal to those of the best bespoke tailors in the city.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I'm amazed by this. Why would a tailor not keep production of both trouser and jacket in house for quality control?


It's not where the garment is made but, how it is made that matters.

There are probably a number of tailors that like being independent so they can take contracts from a number of houses, instead of being hired by a house, which would like to hire them. There are a number of advantages to working for one self rather than for somebody else. You can take time off when you like, work at your own pace and avoid rush hour traffic. Some of these contract tailors are equal to the best in house tailors. Some of them were the best in house tailors in the past. An in house tailor might have a boss looking over the shoulder cracking the whip. A perfectionish would have a hard time being an in house tailor.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

There are multiple factors to consider.
A jacket takes 3,4,5 times longer to make than a trouser, depending on methods used. A shop needs the proper ratio of coatmakers to trouser makers to make it work smoothly. Usually the independent trouser maker will work for several clients to have enough work. Otherwise a shop has to sale a lot of single trousers to keep the trouser maker busy and happy with the amount he is earning. Sourcing to independents makes sense in most situations.
Most of the trouser makers I know specialize in trousers because they did not continue on to learn to make a jacket. For whatever reason. In old school training/apprenticeships the trouser is the first garment a trainee works on and learns to make. During the old days in Italy, the trousermakers were women, who would not go on to coatmaking, or new apprentices. As the apprentice's skill level grew, they began learning coatmaking. It is quite a monumental point when a craftsman is a genuine journeyman coatmaker. This takes many, many years. Once at this level most will not care to make trousers. Sort of like a specialized neurosurgeon asked to remove someone's tonsils. They are overqualified and their talents are better used elsewhere. It is perceived as something of an insult to give trousers to a coatmaker to make. I am not saying trousermakers are less talented. They have chosen their particular specialty to excell at.

I do not know Mr. Nicolosi but I know tailors with a similar attitude about single trousers. They are extremely talented at coat making and pour their heart & soul into thier work. This is their core business and since the jackets are made in house by them, their focus becomes so narrow that their own jackets take prominence and the trouser takes sort of a back seat. Because the trousers are made outside, independent of their overseeing eye, they becomes somewhat less important. I am not projecting this as an explanation for Mr. Nicolosi, merely an observation of my friend.

Personally, I would dig selling 1500.00 trousers all day long.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

And now for the $64,000 question: Does Chris Despos farm out the trousers when he makes a suit? :icon_smile_big:


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

I've done both. Made them in house and out. I use 2 trouser makers now and they both work at home but I have some exclusivity. They both work alone. These are not small shops with multiple sewers.
The issue is quality of work first, economics second. The quality maker gets my work. There is an economic advantage to this set up which benefits the trouser maker, the client and myself.

I am entertaining the idea of making a RTW trouser I will sell out of the store.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

prof said:


> From a value perspective, am I better off having a bespoke suit made in New York or Savile Row? Several Savile Row websites I've seen refer to their bespoke suits "starting at" the equivalent of $3,000-3,500. That's pretty pricey for me. Any advice?
> Thanks


If the price level that you mentioned is a bit high for your budget, then you should go to some of the more "reasonably priced" tailors in NYC, such as Traguardo, Giovanni, Ercole, Mr. Ned, and Gilberto.

Unfortunately, the London visiting tailors fall in the $3,000+ price range. Their more reasonably priced brethern stay at home.

However, if you are dreaming of a real Savile Row suit, there is no substitute for the real thing unless you go to the few English tailors in NYC, such as Logsdail and Cheo. Unfortunately, English tailoring, whether from Savile Row or Madison Avenue, does not come cheap.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Chris Despos said:


> The issue is quality of work first, economics second. The quality maker gets my work. There is an economic advantage to this set up which benefits the trouser maker, the client and myself.


This rationale makes perfect sense, both from a business and quality standpoint.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I don't know if you are the only one, but I can say that trouser outsourcing does not bother me in the slightest, nor does it trouble any of my friends who get their clothes made in NY or London.


My biggest exposure to bespoke has been during visits to A&S and others in London. If quality is maintained then I am less concerned but I believe A&S and some others (Poole, Rubinacci perhaps?) do most or all of their work inhouse.



> However, if you are dreaming of a real Savile Row suit, there is no substitute for the real thing unless you go to the few English tailors in NYC, such as Logsdail and Cheo. Unfortunately, English tailoring, whether from Savile Row or Madison Avenue, does not come cheap.


Tom Mahon seems a bit more reasonable so he may be worth checking out.

I think Marc is right here, there is much to be said for the full London bespoke experience. I certainly had fun with bespoke shoes there. My trips to A&S were fun too and I appreciate they spent so much time with me even if I ultimately decided to wait. I have great respect for them and the service level was superb. I will get a suit from them some day.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> As to fit, that's up to your tailor/cutter to get right. So the high price is partly justified if your tailor/cutter gives his trouser maker a spot-on bundle of cut trouser parts that he can make into a perfectly fitting trouser. And it is partly justified if your tailor is skilled enough to remedy any little nagging problems with the finished trousers when he fits them on you.


That makes a lot of sense to me.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> If quality is maintained then I am less concerned but I believe A&S and some others (Poole, Rubinacci perhaps?) do most or all of their work inhouse.


I don't know the percentages, but I believe that most of the SR houses don't keep all of their tailors on salary, but employ freelancers. The same coat maker, for example, works for Dege, Denman & Goddard, and Welsh & Jefferies. Mahon has discussed his stable of craftsmen with me in very general terms, and it appears that at least one of his guys also does work for A&S. Now some of these people may literally hang their hat inside the SR shop, but to a greater or lesser extent, most of them will work for more than one firm.

Huntsman was noted (in their pre-bankruptcy days) for being the only house on the Row who kept everyone on salary.

You are entirely correct, however, that the only thing that really matters is the quality of the finished product. A well-run shop will keep a consistent roster of good workmen/women and know if there is a particular match between a client and a particular tailor that they need to maintain from one order to the next.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

medwards said:


> In fact, I have found many -- if not most -- Savile Row firms willing to be far more flexible than popular opinion suggests.


So Fallan & Harvey have been able to accomodate those wild medwardian requests? :icon_smile_big:


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

You would bring up that flapped pocket, double-vented dinner jacket, wouldn't you.  

As RJman knows, I exhausted my "wild requests" in Carnaby Street in 1969. I'm not sure any of us will ever recover from lavender and purple velvet. :icon_smile_big:


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## doccol (Nov 13, 2003)

Haven't posted anything on the site for awhile, but I do feel uniquely qualified to answer a couple of points in this topic. I recently moved from New York, where for the past two years Nicolosi has been making my suits, to London. I work right in front of Jermyn Street and several blocks from Savile Row, which I pass on my way to the gym. At this point I have probably stopped in to chat with many of the big name houses. Here are some observations:

1. Savile Row is much more of a business than the big three in NYC (Corvato, Raphael, Nicolosi), all of whom seem to do what they do more for love and pride (they are intensely competitive among each other, from what I have seen), than money. On Savile Row, most of the names on the door are different than the names of the people working there. One works differently when it is for a company than when it is for oneself (anyone is any sort of partnership will agree). Savile Row is a business, the NYC big three are all artisans.

2. Savile Row is all about house style. While you will get a nice fitting garment (collars lining up, perfect length for sleeves, jacket and pants, etc), it won't necessarily fit you, meaning it may not be the most flattering garment you ever put on (Oxxford makes a beautiful suit--they can't fit me worth a damn). For example, if you have broad shoulders and a narrow frame, going to Kilgour, which makes a lovely suit, would be a hideous mistake, unless you want to look like a fully padded football player. 

2. Having said the above, there are several different silhouettes available in London. Most, however, do feature very defined shoulders and very nipped waists. From the meetings I have been on, about three per day since being here, this does seem to be the way guys in finance/business want their suits to look. A&S seems to be the exception to the rule. Even some of the so-called new generation seem to have this fascination with heavily padded shoulders/chests, including Richard James and Timothy Everest. I don't know about Mahon, but the board says he is quite flexible.

3. Quality of work: The big three in NYC all do better handwork. Indeed, the head cutter at A&S said they can't even approach what he saw on my suit from Nicolosi. Rubinacci does fantastic handwork. Their garments also feel great. They are making some shirts for me. But their prices, even for someone like myself being paid in pounds, is really, really high. If I lived in New York, no contest; I would go to Nicolosi (or Raphael). Both can do a neapolitan garment and both are much, much cheaper. Living in London now, given my style preference and build, Rubinacci might get my business. I want to see how the shirts turn out.

4. As to Nicolosi: Man is a certifiable genius. 

If the fit is bad, it is because the customer is impatient. I am very patient and several times he would not let me leave his shop with a suit I thought was perfectly good; there was something he didn't like and he wanted to change it. During a fitting, if you are game, he will ask you to move around the office. He wants to see how the cloth flows. There are no set number of fittings; you go until it is perfect (some suits have taken five fittings, others seven) I got the perception that nobody I met on the row does anyting like this (maybe someone like Mahon, but to the others this is more of a business and does not afford that luxury). 

Nicolosi makes suits that fit you, not a style. While he does have a prefered style, which he calls Madison Avenue (light to no padding in shoulders, slim jackets and pants) Nicolosi makes suits for a friend of mine and me, the two of us could not have more different shapes. Yet, he compensates for both of our shortcomings. If you ever get the chance, go see Tom Wolfe give a reading. He has an extremely imperfect build, but he looks fantastic. As many on the forum know, Nicolosi is his tailor. My wife, who could care less about these things and thinks I am absurd when I point out miniscule differences in my suits, actually notices that the Nicolosi suits fit and flatter much better.

I also have a different take on the cloths around his office, while everybodies taste is there own, I have found it mostly hit, not miss--everytime I go there I find something I like. For example, the last three times I have been there, he had lying around, a grey super 150 with a slight herringbone pattern, the same thing in midnight blue and a super 150 midnight blue, medium-width pinstripe, all in English wools. While the cloths do tend to be staples (greys, blues, pinstripes) the quality is first-rate. Usually British, he does not trust Italian. Indeed, fittings, five to seven per suit, have become extremely expensive; I almost always find something new that I have to have.

I do recollect that waistcoats were expesive (not as expensive as Manton pointed out, but maybe it was the fabric he wanted) as were trousers (I remember getting a pair of grey trousers for around $500).

As to prices, he will not budge, no matter how much you purchase. Why should he? My sense is he has enough clients, gives a phenomenal product that requires a ton of work and is preferring to have quality of clients rather than quantity. It is the same practice I would expect of any first-rate professional or artisan.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I'm not sure any of us will ever recover from lavender and purple velvet.


{cue the Austin Powers music}

Yeah baby, yeah! Groovy!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Doccol,

That's an excellent and informative writeup. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Makes me want to try Nicolosi.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Tom Mahon seems a bit more reasonable so he may be worth checking out.


Tom's suits start at $3000, so he's over the OP's budget.

--Andre


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## manicturncoat (Oct 4, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> I'm amazed by this. Why would a tailor not keep production of both trouser and jacket in house for quality control?
> 
> Am I the only one who expects the tailor to do everything with their own team? Isn't that what we are paying these high prices for?
> 
> ...


This is standard practice, at least in Italy. The pants are cut and then passed on to the "pantalonaie", often, even the buttonholes are outsourced to "azolaie" who also come, in situ, to do it as piecework. Traditionally this work is done exclusively by women. The larger houses like Caraceni etc. probably keep all the work under one roof but in smaller and more provincial shops, which are more representative, this is still how it is done.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Some wonderful, informative posts here. Sometimes the content on the site seems to flag a little - there are periods when people don't seem to have much new to say, and we end up rehashing a lot of old topics. Then along come posts like these and it really restores my faith.


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## sam (Sep 5, 2004)

I have had this same debate between SR vs NY bespoke on my mind for some time as well. For me, the mystique and heritage of the Row is what makes me want to go in that direction, not to mention the exceptional tailoring. I can definitely appreciate and agree with the convenience and fit factors of using a local tailor. My tailor here in DC (Field) is just down the street from me, which makes fittings very convenient. He is also very accommodating and willing to make corrections till you are satisfied. Having said that, I'm still anxious to have my first SR bespoke suit. However, NY is only a train ride away and that makes me consider tailors like Nicolosi and Logsdail. As already mentioned, I think you have to try a few different routes before you decide which is best for you- fit and convenience, or SR pedigree and particular house style. I know that until I scratch my SR itch, I won't be satisfied.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Dopey hits it on the head. 

Each tailor has his own look and style. Can an Italian (or South American) in NYC duplicate an English suit? Yes and no. It's like French wine. There is a certain magic and mystique to the English suit and the Italian suit that only the respective native tailors can produce. It is similar to French wine. There is a certain mystique to French wine although perfectly excellent wine is produced in California, New York, Australia, etc.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

There is a lot of great information in this thread and I've read it with interest. 

The original question was where to get the best value. The answer I've found is that the deeper you get into this particular hobby, the more deformed your values become. About clothing, anyway. The only time there's a single answer is while you're making your decisions the first time. 

I have country clothes MTM in the States, because I save money and don't give up very much. For city clothes, I use two travelling Row tailors currently, and am about to try another. One does double breasteds, one does unlined summer suits, and and the third will be for an experiment in single breasteds with more structure and a higher button stance. 

There's been a lot of talk about Cary Grant recently, and according to that discussion he apparently patronized tailors all over the world. Kilgour has him as a customer, but he used at least two LA tailors in addition to Brooks Brothers and never hid that he went to Hong Kong for some of his suits.

Find something you like that's at a price you can pay, however reluctantly. After a while you'll learn of another source that gets the lapel just right, or has a knack for double breasted, and try them too. Have fun.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Each tailor has his own look and style. Can an Italian (or South American) in NYC duplicate an English suit? Yes and no. It's like French wine. There is a certain magic and mystique to the English suit and the Italian suit that only the respective native tailors can produce.


But I can see where an Englishman like Tom Mahon can created a good suit after getting sizes...


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Will said:


> The original question was where to get the best value. The answer I've found is that the deeper you get into this particular hobby, the more deformed your values become. About clothing, anyway. The only time there's a single answer is while you're making your decisions the first time.
> ...
> Find something you like that's at a price you can pay, however reluctantly. After a while you'll learn of another source that gets the lapel just right, or has a knack for double breasted, and try them too. Have fun.


Very insightful - perhaps painfully so - comments.



> I have country clothes MTM in the States, because I save money and don't give up very much. For city clothes, I use two travelling Row tailors currently, and am about to try another. One does double breasteds, one does unlined summer suits, and and the third will be for an experiment in single breasteds with more structure and a higher button stance.


I am surprised to hear that you would use an American MTM shop for country clothes (what I would take to be tweeds and the like) and a British tailor for light summer suits - I would have guessed that it would be the other way around.

Who do you prefer for double-breasteds?


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

sam said:


> I have had this same debate between SR vs NY bespoke on my mind for some time as well. For me, the mystique and heritage of the Row is what makes me want to go in that direction, not to mention the exceptional tailoring. I can definitely appreciate and agree with the convenience and fit factors of using a local tailor. My tailor here in DC (Field) is just down the street from me, which makes fittings very convenient. He is also very accommodating and willing to make corrections till you are satisfied. Having said that, I'm still anxious to have my first SR bespoke suit. However, NY is only a train ride away and that makes me consider tailors like Nicolosi and Logsdail. As already mentioned, I think you have to try a few different routes before you decide which is best for you- fit and convenience, or SR pedigree and particular house style. I know that until I scratch my SR itch, I won't be satisfied.


Please correct me if I am wrong, but isnt a Field suit essentially a Savile Row product, but made here?


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

I guess that depends on what you mean by a "Savile Row" suit. I personally do not believe you can have a Savile Row product that is made elsewhere, though this has been discussed recently and Mr. Mahon's move to Cumbria may signal something different. If you mean, a suit that has a classic English look that is put together via traditional Savile Row techniques by a Savile Row-trained tailor, I guess the answer could be "yes." The late Mr. Field was indeed Savile Row trained, but had been in this country for many years...and his son learned his craft from him. The basic approach is certainly classic British styling, relying on the approach and methods that typify Savile Row. But Georgetown isn't Mayfair and Wisconsin Avenue is by no means Saviloe Row. Moreover, William Field, as was his father, is exceptionally accomodating in terms of styling, approach and fit and will try to meet a customer's wants and needs assuming he has the knowledge and skills to accomplish the task. I am a big fan -- and a longstanding client -- of the firm and would heartily recommend it, but I do not think it would be fair to characterize it as Savile Row any more than dozens of other tailoring shops around the UK (or for that matter around the world) that can cut a Savile Row silhouette.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

"I am surprised to hear that you would use an American MTM shop for country clothes (what I would take to be tweeds and the like) and a British tailor for light summer suits - I would have guessed that it would be the other way around. 

Who do you prefer for double-breasteds?"

For DBs I've been using A&S and intend to try Mahon. 

My summer suits are not light cloth, which would be a stretch for a Savile Row trained tailor, but they are unlined for air circulation and the MTM operation doesn't do unlined. I find a fresco, mohair or linen with unlined sleeves is a lot cooler than a quarter lined coat. 

I buy tweed from Scottish and Irish sources and send it to the factory. That works great.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Will said:


> I buy tweed from Scottish and Irish sources and send it to the factory. That works great.


I've been looking for a good source of tweeds myself but haven't had much luck - are you able to divulge your sources?


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Cantabrigian said:


> I've been looking for a good source of tweeds myself but haven't had much luck - are you able to divulge your sources?


Unless you're walking into W. Bill in London with your tailor, the broadest selection is at North Highland Tweed Company, which took over Hunters of Brora. I believe you're familiar with them from the London Lounge.

For lighter cloths, Holland & Sherry.

Magee of Ireland has Donegals. They no longer have an online store so you'd need to call for samples.

Isles Textile Group has Harrisons as well as Harris tweeds but their prices are somewhat higher than UK direct prices because they've paid duty on their inventory.

I've a number of smaller Scottish and Irish sources in my files at home and will pass them on this weekend.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Magee of Ireland has Donegals.


I saw a swatch book last week from Holland & Sherry as well with some gorgeous Donegals.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

W. Bill must have at least 30 different books floating around the NY tailors. It is a picky man indeed who cannot find the right tweed in all those treasures.


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## byoloye (Dec 30, 2004)

doccol said:


> Haven't posted anything on the site for awhile, but I do feel uniquely qualified to answer a couple of points in this topic. I recently moved from New York, where for the past two years Nicolosi has been making my suits, to London. I work right in front of Jermyn Street and several blocks from Savile Row, which I pass on my way to the gym. At this point I have probably stopped in to chat with many of the big name houses. Here are some observations:
> 
> 1. Savile Row is much more of a business than the big three in NYC (Corvato, Raphael, Nicolosi), all of whom seem to do what they do more for love and pride (they are intensely competitive among each other, from what I have seen), than money. On Savile Row, most of the names on the door are different than the names of the people working there. One works differently when it is for a company than when it is for oneself (anyone is any sort of partnership will agree). Savile Row is a business, the NYC big three are all artisans.
> 
> ...


doccol, excellent post.

I was in Rubinacci, London, yesterday and picked up some ties. Very nice store. Please let us know how your shirts turn out.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Here's another vote for W Bill for tweeds. They run a first rate operation with a tremendous range of cloth. Importantly, they have a good selection of things in different weights. I've been very pleased with everything I've received from them. I'm having another jacket made up at the moment with a Harris tweed sourced through them.

I had the opportunity to go into their storerooms in London last year, which are a treasure trove of tweed. I don't think they are normally open to visitors, but their books are widely available in London.


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## Joel (Jul 23, 2007)

Everyone has their own feelings on who is the best, and on here it seems everyone is an expert, so I expect any tailor reccomended on here will be very good. I studied tailoring at London College of Fashion and although I am not tailoring anymore, so I know a bit about it. I have friends who after studying went on to work at Pooles and then Maurice Sedwell, while others went on work for Timothy Everest. 

I think finding a good tailor is hard, I don't think it is just measurements but the keen eye of the gentleman taking your measurements, I know tailors who take 12 measures while others take 35.

While at LCF I listened to a talk by Geoff Souster (I believe he used to head of the merchant tailors guild). He mentioned a man who took measurements and then had them sent over to France to be laser cut and put together, I believe it was a fused garment being manufactured. The thing that got me was that he showed the garment to a top SR tailor; the tailor said that it's fit was so good that he didn't think their SR suits fitted as well.

Sorry if this is a pointless post but I thought it might be interesting.


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## Sir Walter (Jun 23, 2007)

jcusey said:


> It depends on what the tailor is trying to do. My understanding is that Nicolosi really, really hates making vests and odd trousers. Given this, his pricing structure makes a lot of sense.


It is bewildering to me how $1,500.00 for a pair or trousers can make sense. It seems absurd!


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Concordia said:


> I don't know the percentages, but I believe that most of the SR houses don't keep all of their tailors on salary, but employ freelancers. The same coat maker, for example, works for Dege, Denman & Goddard, and Welsh & Jefferies. Mahon has discussed his stable of craftsmen with me in very general terms, and it appears that at least one of his guys also does work for A&S. Now some of these people may literally hang their hat inside the SR shop, but to a greater or lesser extent, most of them will work for more than one firm.
> 
> Huntsman was noted (in their pre-bankruptcy days) for being the only house on the Row who kept everyone on salary.


A tiny addendum to this-- I was in A&S a few days ago and inquired about my tailor's name, which was affixed to the ticket on the sleeve. Was he the same one who did everything, and was he on-site? I figured there might be some value to having him see his work being tried on.

Turns out that he is indeed given all of my orders, but he executes them from his home in Devon. No need to be in London when everyone knows the score, and he is more productive away from distractions.

Sadly, he is also 60, as is my cutter (and longtime friend) John Hitchcock. Time to stock up, and pray my figure only changes in manageble decreases below the shoulder blades!


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

What scares me is the thought of NYC bespoke in 5 years time. The big three (Corvato, Raphael and Nicolosi) should be retiring soon, and Shattuck seems to be semi-retired already. That leaves Logsdail and Mauritizio (sp?) as the only full-fledged tailors around (Cheo is not taking new customers).


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

manton said:


> I have had the opposite experience, in finding Roman bespoke makers to charge on average less than the Milanese. In fact, the further south in Italy you go, the cheaper things tend to get.


I consider myself extremely fortunate in that here, even further south than Naples (in fact almost as far south as the boot of Italy could kick you), you can get excellent bespoke at prices even lower than in Naples. Probably in the days when you paid in Lira, Naples might have been cheaper, but today Sydney is cheaper (between $2-3000 AUD plus cost of fabric).

It has been very interesting to read this thread again which I paid only scant attention to the first time around. There are clearly some parallels between the situation in New York and Sydney. Both of these New World cities received a wave of Italian immigrants in the post war years. It is to this generation that I imagine the NYC tailors belong, as do the Sydney tailors.

Both of the two finest Italian tailors (Adamo Marrone and Vittorio Alacqua) also shake their heads and complain bitterly about Savile Row tailoring when you raise the subject. They both say that the SR suits that they have altered for customers had shoddy workmanship, and that SR exists on the basis of reputation alone. I believe there is someone down in Melbourne (Nicolini, I believe) who says exactly the same thing.


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## CPVS (Jul 17, 2005)

Sator,

I'm not necessarily disputing your implicit claim that the best Italian tailoring represents better workmanship than that of Savile Row, but I think you you would have to agree that just because a few (even very good) Italian tailors dislike Savile Row products, that doesn't make them bad. Some of these chaps could have a personal or professional grudge against the Row.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

CPVS said:


> Sator,
> 
> I'm not necessarily disputing your implicit claim that the best Italian tailoring represents better workmanship than that of Savile Row, but I think you you would have to agree that just because a few (even very good) Italian tailors dislike Savile Row products, that doesn't make them bad. Some of these chaps could have a personal or professional grudge against the Row.


I agree with you and wonder about a certain professional rivalry at work. So I do take it with a pinch of salt. But, when more the one person independently says exactly the same thing, doubts start to enter your mind. Still, I am sure there are excellent tailors on the Row - there are so many of them that to dismiss them all carte blanch seems a bit unfair.


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## phillys (Aug 7, 2007)

CPVS said:


> Some of these chaps could have a personal or professional grudge against the Row.


Call me naive all you want but why would tailors hate each other and hold grudges? Aren't they all working hard trying to keep their business together from falling apart under the siege of ready-to-wear clothes?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Why can't they all get along nicely, and love one another in the Universal Brotherhood of Bespoke, which knows no national boundries? 

Sigh....it's just human nature, I'm afraid to say....


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## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

Panzeraxe said:


> What scares me is the thought of NYC bespoke in 5 years time. The big three (Corvato, Raphael and Nicolosi) should be retiring soon, and Shattuck seems to be semi-retired already. That leaves Logsdail and Mauritizio (sp?) as the only full-fledged tailors around (Cheo is not taking new customers).


Agreed Panzer. If Raph retires, I'm back at square one and might have to drive upstate to hound Frank out of hibernation.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Panzeraxe said:


> What scares me is the thought of NYC bespoke in 5 years time. The big three (Corvato, Raphael and Nicolosi) should be retiring soon, and Shattuck seems to be semi-retired already. That leaves Logsdail and Mauritizio (sp?) as the only full-fledged tailors around (Cheo is not taking new customers).


Don't forget Fioravanti, though he is probably retiring soon, too, unfortunately. BTW, what do you mean by (sp?), Panzeraxe?


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Medwards*

My friends. Medwards, saw that you posted Mimmo Sivglia site. He is known for his shirts only. This is what I hear. And that they are supreme.

What is he getting for his shirts now.
Thank you my firnd

Nice day


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## suds-okeefe (Aug 12, 2006)

DukeGrad said:


> My friends. Medwards, saw that you posted Mimmo Sivglia site. He is known for his shirts only. This is what I hear. And that they are supreme.
> 
> What is he getting for his shirts now.
> Thank you my firnd
> ...


I intend to meet mister Siviglia myself for a consultation about shirts. This thread has photos of shirts *and suits* that he has made for community members.

https://www.filmnoirbuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2668


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Any updates on which New York tailors are retiring? When I move back to New York (a dream...it will happen eventually) I want to start a long-term relationship with a bespoke tailor. It seems like the longest I'd get with any of these guys would be 20 or so years. Are there any younger, up and coming, bespoke tailors - a new generation to replace the skilled artisans discussed in this thread - or will the tradition of bespoke tailoring in America spiral down into oblivion.


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