# In praise of Stafford dress shirts, review of several dress shirt brands



## fallschurch (Apr 7, 2015)

Wanted to express my appreciation for *JC Penney Stafford* (Executive/Traveler, Oxford/Pinpoint) dress shirts, as someone who dresses conservatively in classic American fashion with a masculine look.

First off, I'm not economically capable to buy from *Ratio Clothing*, which is obviously superior in every way -- American made, tailored, very affordable given its quality:

https://www.ratioclothing.com/products/light-blue-windowpane-pinpoint
https://www.ratioclothing.com/products/light-blue-classic-pinpoint
https://www.ratioclothing.com/products/white-campus-oxford

Or, a step down, *Brooks Brothers* ($60-$100 range).

Or even *Lands End* ($40-$60 range)

Or (and here's a blast from the past) old-style *Nautica *sanded poplin, 80's 2-ply, and vintage oxfords circa 2003-2008 before they decided to compete with Izods rather than Ralph Laurens). I splurged on a few in 2008, got them tailored, and they are still in terrific condition.

I'm not disputing that these are superior to Stafford. I just can't afford them in my current lot in life. _I would even agree that if I had the money, it would be worth it to spend extra on these choices. _

This leaves me with a smorgasbord of low-end options. After doing my homework (or so I think, correct me if I'm wrong), the Stafford line is the best available option for $30 and under.

Reasons why Stafford dress shirts are superior given their price point: 

1: Great fit. Their athletic/slim fit actually is slim and doesn't make me look like a flying squirrel.
2: Wide selection of customizable fit and style options. I can find an athletic or slim cut, 16/32, button down or point collar shirt in many colors and patterns. 
3: Affordable quality: compares favorably in Consumerreviews to Merona or Kirkland lines
4: Very affordable (I've gotten 60/40 OCBD's that will last for 5-10 years with care for $17)

Drawbacks:

1: I don't want no-iron, but this isn't an option. I can add skim milk and detox the shirts. 
2: I like 80's 2-ply cotton, but it would be too much to ask at this price point.

Why it is superior to other brands in the same/similar price point

*Charles Tyrwhitt* - Their $30 and under selection cannot compare in terms of variety. Too many spread collars and patterns I don't need. I prefer pinpoints over broadcloth and twill. But this one is close.

*Merona*, *Kirkland* - Stafford shirts are superior quality as well as fit and customizability

*Jos A Banks* - I walked into a store and felt like I had a dollar sign on my back (which I don't). Bought a shirt for $19 online, was their tailored fit, and looked like a parachute. Also, it was broadcloth, I couldn't find pinpoints or oxfords in my price range.

*Brands you find in Kohls (Apt 9, Haggar, Van Heusen, Croft & Barrow, etc) - *Apt 9 only has spread collar broadcloths; Haggar shirts are too big and a bit over my price point; Van Heusen also mostly has spread broadcloths and fit issues; Croft & Barrow has fit and quality issues)

*Paul Fredrick* - their $19.95 introductory shirt ($26 when you factor in shipping) has raised enough bad publicity here, no need to repeat. Even if it is 80's 2-ply cotton

*Brands you find on sale at Macy's (Eagle, Club Room, Michael Kors, Alfani)* - the ones that fall into this price point are often sketchy, mostly broadcloth. Eagle slim fit isn't slim at all, but their quality is great. Also a bit higher than I can afford. Alfani gets slim, but looks too European for me.

*Pierre Cardin *- Just kidding. Just wanted to make sure you're paying attention.

The only comparable find has been (surprise surprise, yes I really dug deep into this) are the clearance Lord & Taylor Black and Brown 1826 shirts you find online for $19.99. I haven't found one of these that are fitted, pinpoint 80's 2-ply one in button down or point collar that is white, light blue, or light blue / black check on white, but will keep looking.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated!


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

If it simply comes down to money, what I prefer to $17 Stafford dress shirts are $4 thrifted Brooks Brothers supima OCBD shirts....sometimes in new condition.

Alternatively, they come up on the exchange often enough for $20-30 shipped.

Rare- yes, but I'm sure anyone here who has thrifted long enough has found plenty. I find Land's End stuff all the time, and their tailored fit is pretty slim from my experience with their oxfords.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

That has to be the most comprehensive, thoughtful review of low-end dress shirts ever written.


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## coynedj (Jun 1, 2008)

A very good review. I've had quite a few Stafford shirts over the years, and while now I favor thrifted shirts from Zegna and the like, a few still have a place in my closet. And I laughed out loud at the comment that they don't make you "look like a flying squirrel" - I have the same complaint against many shirts, and now I have a perfect way of expressing it.


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## red_shift (Aug 8, 2013)

Given all the options in cloth, collar and fit we all have a wishlist. 

I've found that nothing compares to BB slim fit in terms of collar size and general quality but that's just me. I've thrifted things like Nordstrom, Nautica, PRL, etc and they all seem to have something that doesn't flatter my face or figure even though they are technically the right collar size and sleeve length. Generally they DO work as knocking around shirts but only outside the office for me, or casual Friday wear.

I'm intrigued about Kamakura as I've heard great things on the forum but mail order is a gamble and for the price I'll stick with BB, and occasionally Land's End for now, thrifted of course.

I appreciate the review of Stafford shirts. I have bad memories of buying JCP clothes in my pre-forum days and I've been dismissing them out of hand; I'll give them a critical once-over next time I'm out.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Some effort went into it, for sure.

I understand, even sympathize. But the Brooks oxford hardly would seem out of reach. For one thing, save your pennies. The money you spend on several JC Penney shirts could be combined to buy one really nice Brooks shirt, instead, especially if you wait for one of the several sales during the year.

For another, as mentioned, you don't have to buy them new. Be patient. Watch the exchange.



FLCracka said:


> That has to be the most comprehensive, thoughtful review of low-end dress shirts ever written.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

fallschurch said:


> 1: I don't want no-iron, but this isn't an option. I can add skim milk and detox the shirts.


Wait. What?!?!?

Does this really work? Cause if so, it will dramatically increase my thrifting choices. (not that I need more dress shirts, but that is beside the point).


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

Flying squirrel made me laugh pretty hard. The brooks brothers slim fits fall into that category. My gf called them flying squirrel shirts too. I guess she's not alone in the imagery. Hard to find anything that is actually slim in the USA.


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## barneco (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for the comprehensive analysis. I personally consider true dress shirts a consumable and don't expect them to last long enough to merit a large amount of $$, so when thrifting or the exchange or ebay don't deliver, it's helpful to have this insight.


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

If BB Extra Slim Fit is baggy on you--- You either are buying the wrong neck size, or need to eat more haha. Possibly both.


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

adoucett said:


> If BB Extra Slim Fit is baggy on you--- You either are buying the wrong neck size, or need to eat more haha. Possibly both.


I'm a size 17.5 or 18 neck. 5'10" and 215lbs; 46" chest and 34" waist I'm far from scrawny and could probably lose another 10. The shirts are stupid baggy and not slim whatsoever. They just aren't cut for athletic frames.

My eton standard fit are slimmer.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

I'm not one of these "princess and the pea" types about softness, but the Stafford OCBD that I had was decidedly uncomfortable due to both coarse fabric and stiff, heavy fusing. This was under a decade ago and the price was pretty much the same $17. So I mist disagree.


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

jm22 said:


> I'm a size 17.5 or 18 neck. 5'10" and 215lbs; 46" chest and 34" waist I'm far from scrawny and could probably lose another 10. The shirts are stupid baggy and not slim whatsoever. They just aren't cut for athletic frames.
> 
> My eton standard fit are slimmer.


I'm guessing this is because according to the BB sizing chart a 18" neck translates to a XXL... According to brooks for a slim fit, this means a chest of 48" and a waist of 52".....A good 10" too large in the waist. 
The Extra slim fit in 18 is a 48" chest and a 51" waist.

Either way, an XXL in slim fit is still gonna be pretty big....

At 5'10" how long are your sleeve lengths?? I am 5"10 and have a 34" sleeve...and my arms are on the long side. A typical 18" shirt has sleeves of 36"


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

adoucett said:


> I'm guessing this is because according to the BB sizing chart a 18" neck translates to a XXL... According to brooks for a slim fit, this means a chest of 48" and a waist of 52".....A good 10" too large in the waist.
> The Extra slim fit in 18 is a 48" chest and a 51" waist.
> 
> Either way, an XXL in slim fit is still gonna be pretty big....
> ...


34-35 sleeves.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

fallschurch said:


> 1: I don't want no-iron, but this isn't an option. I can add skim milk and detox the shirts.


First I have heard about this. What do you mean "detox"?


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

I would think orange fury could weigh in on the Stafford shirts. They used to be his daily wearer.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I make no secret of my love for the supima cotton Brooks Brothers oxford. I am probably one of those "princess and the pea" people about softness, because the shirt has just the extra degree of softness that I haven't found elsewhere and that makes all the difference in the world. 

I like my shirts big, too. Give me the flying squirrel look anyday, and this is from someone who is fit and close to his ideal weight. Shirts should be tents, not skindiving suits, with room to move and breathe.

So, my point, I guess, is it is worth the little bit of extra cash for Brooks over a Stafford or other low-cost alternative. I'm paying not just for the style and quality I like, but also for the comfort.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
....or choose to be a flying squirrel going incognito by incorporating a military tuck into your daily wardrobing efforts to control the generously sized waists of those BB shirts.....LOL...works like a charm for me!


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I'm going to go fishing now. 

If I catch a squirrel by mistake, I'll boil it in skim milk and serve wrapped in a Stafford shirt.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Yes! I embrace the flying squirrel in my soul. Actually, I don't even give it much thought until topics like this come up. A fuller cut is just what I've always preferred to wear.

Of course, medium or higher rise trousers help to keep things in proportion and give you room to tuck. I just pull the shirt in and tuck down as far as possible then basically let the rest billow.

Also, a Brooks oxford softens up with laundering, and that really helps with how the billow drapes.



eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> ....or choose to be a flying squirrel going incognito by incorporating a military tuck into your daily wardrobing efforts to control the generously sized waiss of those BB shirts.....LOL...works like a charm for me!


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## mankson (Sep 27, 2012)

Thanks for the review - very useful.

Would also like more info on the skim milk detox.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

dks202 said:


> First I have heard about this. What do you mean "detox"?


I'm curious about this, too...I've heard vague accusations that non-iron shirts are toxic, shouldn't hold a newborn against non-iron fabric, etc.


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## fallschurch (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes, you can remove formaldehyde from clothes. Here is an Ehow article:

https://www.ehow.com/how_12031091_remove-formaldehyde-clothing.html



vpkozel said:


> Wait. What?!?!?
> 
> Does this really work? Cause if so, it will dramatically increase my thrifting choices. (not that I need more dress shirts, but that is beside the point).


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## JArmstrong (Nov 20, 2014)

jm22 said:


> I'm a size 17.5 or 18 neck. 5'10" and 215lbs; 46" chest and 34" waist I'm far from scrawny and could probably lose another 10. The shirts are stupid baggy and not slim whatsoever. They just aren't cut for athletic frames.


 This. I tried one on at the local BB store and I had the same issue I ALWAYS have with ORT shirts in that the neck was fine but the chest/waist/arm holes made me look like the aforementioned flying squirrel. I'm fairly short but have wide shoulders and a slim midsection. I finally ponied up the money for MTM and I don't regret a penny of it.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Great post !



> I can add skim milk and detox the shirts.


Wow, powdered milk, vinegar, baking soda, and detergent. Who'd a thunk it ? ? ?

This non-iron business is a source of chronic complaints here, waiting to hear who will try it and how it worked out.

Amazing ! ! !


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

zzdocxx said:


> Great post !
> 
> Wow, powdered milk, vinegar, baking soda, and detergent. Who'd a thunk it ? ? ?
> 
> ...


Sounds like horse **** to me.


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## fallschurch (Apr 7, 2015)

Regarding used BB shirts .. not sure how I feel about someone other than my wife's skin cells and body fluids on mine.

Bought 5 Stafford shirts for $95 this past month (some cotton/poly oxfords, some cotton/poly pinpoints, some 100% cotton pinpoints). Now I have a working wardrobe instead of 1 (or 2) BB shirts. I'm not going to appear on some fashion magazine, but I also have shirts that will last me more than 8 years.



Duvel said:


> Some effort went into it, for sure.
> 
> I understand, even sympathize. But the Brooks oxford hardly would seem out of reach. For one thing, save your pennies. The money you spend on several JC Penney shirts could be combined to buy one really nice Brooks shirt, instead, especially if you wait for one of the several sales during the year.
> 
> For another, as mentioned, you don't have to buy them new. Be patient. Watch the exchange.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

zzdocxx said:


> Great post !
> 
> Wow, powdered milk, vinegar, baking soda, and detergent. Who'd a thunk it ? ? ?
> 
> ...


 I bought a non iron shirt today and will be trying it soon. I will report on the results. I don't think that I am going with all of the steps listed, but am definitely going to use the skim milk step.

Does anyone know if it takes the shirt basically back to a must iron or does it just remove the chemical?


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## fallschurch (Apr 7, 2015)

Please use powdered skim milk! Not in liquid form. I didn't go into detail as it wasn't the main point of my original post. Also refer to the Ehow article I posted earlier in this thread.

It should remove the chemical but may also alter shape slightly. Not sure how to foolproof against that.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

Powdered milk? Liquid milk? Here's a foolproof method to eliminate the non-iron treatment once and for all: 

Step One: Give the shirts to Goodwill.
Step Two: Buy must-iron shirts.

It worked for me; I guarantee it will work for you.


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## red_shift (Aug 8, 2013)

fallschurch said:


> Regarding used BB shirts .. not sure how I feel about someone other than my wife's skin cells and body fluids on mine.
> 
> Bought 5 Stafford shirts for $95 this past month (some cotton/poly oxfords, some cotton/poly pinpoints, some 100% cotton pinpoints). Now I have a working wardrobe instead of 1 (or 2) BB shirts. I'm not going to appear on some fashion magazine, but I also have shirts that will last me more than 8 years.


Only you can decide on your level of comfort for thrifted items. Best of luck!


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