# Intolerance???



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Was watching one of those trashy Entertainment programs the other day, and I noticed a big segment, Isaac Hayes quit his role as "chef" on the show South Park, (and he used to be so cool too...) because of the show's "intolerance" towards Scientology, then a bunch of knucklehead celebrities who also belong to this "religion" (and I use that term very loosely) giving him the ol attaboy for not accepting "the intolerance"...I'm sorry, but I dont see what the big deal is...I mean, I dont recall people getting up in arms about all the episodes making fun of Jews or Catholics...or Blacks, or Hispanics, or just about anybody else (basically the premise of the show is to satterize everybody)...then it was comedy, and if you said anything about it, you were just being too uptight...now when somebody makes fun of Scientology...we have a problem??? That's when comedy "crosses the line" and becomes intolerant, There was an article about it again today on Yahoo news, labeling this whole thing "controversy", to me, this thing is being blown waaaaay out of proportion...once again, I must say it...maybe I'm the idiot...

...and for the record before somebody trys to get all "AAAAAAH HAAAAAA!!!" on me...no, I dont support intolerance of any kind, and I don't watch South Park that often, but why is this considered intolerance when the show basically became what it is by playing on the stereotypes of, and smearing certain groups of people???

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

There was a time when the people laughing the loudest at ethnic humour and satire were the group targeted. Today, I heard countless radio cracks about drunk irishmen. I didn't take offense, mores the pity, because the fool's haven't a clue of the great irish jokes once told by Pat O'Brian on that same media.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

indeed...people just need to lighten up a bit...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

I don't watch South Park, so I'm not familiar with the breadth of their satire, but I disagree with the popular notion that by satirizing everyone equally you're necessarily being 'fair'. Most people have a basic familiarity with Christianity, for example, so if they see a stereotypical or satirical depiction of it, they can evaluate it against some working understanding of the culture, and against actual Christians that they know. Whereas many, many people in various parts of the country don't much about Scientology and don't even KNOW any Jews, so lacking any substantive information, people are more likely to accept depictions of these cultures as 'essentially truthful', even while they might understand intellectually that 'some' degree of humor and exaggeration is at play.

Which is not at all to suggest that Scientology, Judaism, Christianity, patriotism, style mavenism or anything else does or does not deserve to be satirized on its own merits. I just don't find the "good for the goose, good for the gander" argument to be a convincing one.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

...so...

...it's okay to make fun of Christians and nobody else???

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Daywalker (Aug 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> ...so...
> 
> ...it's okay to make fun of Christians and nobody else???


It is also okay to make fun of Caucasian males.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I got shot down with a gag about Oral Roberts University in the NCAA tournament.

I wrote "And what about the other Roberts family schools - Renal, Viral and Intestinal?"

My craven editors yanked that right out. 

In my experience it's not so much about being fair (which is a waste of time anyway) but about money. If we say such-and-such, will so-and-so pull his advertising?


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

A great line, in any event, Patrick!

Carpe Diem


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

As the husband of someone in the field of mental health, I really can't have too much sympathy with the offended sensibilities a group of people who in the recent past drove around with bumper stickers reading "Psychologists [or maybe it was psychiatrists] do it with rats!"

Then, there was good ol' L. Ron's "Fair Game Policy" to the effect that any enemy of Scientology could be harmed in any way you could get away with. This has been rescinded, and it may be argued the most religions have some ugly baggage in their past, but we are talking about something in recent memory here!

Moreover, these people are extremely aggressive proselytizers--far, far more than the oft-ridiculed born-again, Bible-believing Christians, and the diminutive Mr. Cruise has often used his celebrity status to attack the mental health profession. Then, they they have the "chutzpah" (if I can be forgiven for borrowing that eloquent Yiddishism) to demand the same politeness that well-brought up people traditionaly display toward practitioners of different religions! Not that South Park is noted for gentility and restraint in any case!


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)




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## Wimsey (Jan 28, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> [snip]
> 
> ...


This is not really about South Park and tolerance or intolerance; it's about Isaac Hayes, specifically, not liking SP's depictions of Scientology and so quitting the show. I'm sure that there are plenty of other people who don't like SP's depictions of Jews, Christians, fat people, etc., and who don't watch the show for that reason. But it's not news because they aren't actual characters on the show.

It's the difference between people not watching Fox because they don't like its political viewpoint, and Bill O'Reilly quitting Fox because he doesn't like Fox's political viewpoint.

And, WRT catholic jokes, irish jokes, jewish jokes, black jokes - usually those jokes are only inoffensive if they are (1) told by a member of the community being made fun of; or (2) don't aren't really offensive to the group in questions. Although scientologists have never been noted for their humor, and I can't think of any scientologist jokes anyway.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

A priest, minister and rabbi were out fishing when their boat capsized.In spite of heavy seas they all made it to shore. Priest and minister began giving thanks to the allmighty. They looked over to see the rabbi performing the sign of the cross. Shouting hallelujas, they listened as he seemed to pray outloud, " Lets see; testicles, spectacles, watch and wallet."  There, I've gone and started something[}]


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> A priest, minister and rabbi were out fishing when their boat capsized.In spite of heavy seas they all made it to shore. Priest and minister began giving thanks to the allmighty. They looked over to see the rabbi performing the sign of the cross. Shouting hallelujas, they listened as he seemed to pray outloud, " Lets see; testicles, spectacles, watch and wallet."  There, I've gone and started something[}]


It's "spectacles,testicles, wallet and watch". Protestant inside joke for decades. In my family, at least.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> ...so...
> 
> ...


A rather simplistic statement. What do you mean by 'okay'? A joke isn't just a joke -- obviously, there are tasteful and distasteful jokes, appropriate and inappropriate jokes. There is illuminating satire and spiteful satire, clever satire and crude satire.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

.......And then there's California[:I] As the writer Edward Abbey always closed his lectures, " If I've failed to insult anyone, I apologise."


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## Duane Gran (Jan 14, 2005)

The problem with the intolerance theme, as you point out, is that it has inadvertently sanctioned certain types of inappropriate behavior. The only acceptable groups to lampoon are Southerners, Christians and Caucasians. How strange.

But what seems really strange is that the idea of intolerance has very little currency with most people when you get right down to it. Sure, any reasonable person objects to racial epitaphs and slurs, but its only a fringe who object to any and all disparaging (in jest) comment or caricature, excepting the three groups above. With so little support, and with most people having fairly thick skins and a good attitude, how has this fringe dictated such discomfort on the whole?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I agree with that!


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> this "religion" (and I use that term very loosely)


That's a bit bigoted. The way I look at various religions is that we won't find out who, if anyone, is right until we're dead.

I did a paper on Scientology in college. It's not for me, but I'm not going to ridicule someone else's choice.

I think we have to draw a distinction between some fart complaining about comedy and Isaac Hayes deciding he didn't want to be part of something that went against his grain. He didn't ask viewers and advertisers to boycott the show, he didn't attempt to coerece the show to change its ways. He just said it wasn't for him, so he was giving up that paycheck. How can you not respect that?


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

Scientology is a crock. I would refrain from criticizing, say, Catholicism, or Judaism, in most circumstances because it is bad form. I don't think that entities like Scientology or the Unification Church (Moonies) deserve the same respect. They are transparent cults, and very recent creations. They are outside the fold of respectable religions that society offers respect to, although they try to invoke that status for themselves. 

Isaac Hayes took a stand on his principles. His principles are based on respect for a stupid and corrupt cult. No, I don't respect that. 

It seems like every time Gabba Goul opens his mouth around here, he gets jumped on, but he is always at least half right, and 200% right on this one.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

That's magnanimous and very liberal of you crs, but do you not recognize any religious organization as a cult? There are religions that, however just the god they worship might be in the afterlife, are run by humans who suck all the money out of the members and in some cases virtually enslave them. 

What about the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh? Marshall Applewhite and the Heaven's Gate cult? Would you criticize these religions, or stand back and say, "Who am I to judge?"


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Obviously I make personal choices, mine being that I pray twice daily but do not align myself with any organized religion. My wife is a practicing Catholic and I support that but do not join. I think we are on dangerous ground, however, when we begin to decide which religions are valid. Many of our ancestors came to the United States in order to escape that kind of thinking. I believe that once we begin deciding one religion is invalid, we are not all that far from deciding another religion is the only valid one. In which case we would have a lot of very unhappy people. So while I found nothing useful in L. Ron Hubbard's writing, I think holding it up to ridicule is un-American. Puritans, for instance: Cult? They had some peculiar habits ... that whole witchhunt thing ...


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

I think holding Scientology, or any other religion, up to ridicule, is very American. In fact, I think that the ability to have a no holds barred public discourse on any subject is one of the most valuable parts of liberal democratic society. Anyone can practice anything they want, and I would never try to stop them. But I will never give up my critical judgement or right to criticize.


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_


I see you, and raise you this:

https://tcruiseko.ytmnd.com/

Refresh for sync 

Good/Fast/Cheap - Pick Two


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Boy, Ol' Tom appears to have slipped a vital cog.

Semi-retired friends of my parents got suckered into the Scientology fold. Only timely intervention by friends and attorneys kept them from losing their little all.

Anecdotal, so be sure, but there are a lot of similar stories. Can it all be bunk?

(Of course, I'm the one who's always gibbering about the Lizard People, but that's a put-on. I think.)


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The problem with many 'religons' is anyone not of the faith is without value. I've enjoyed jewish High holidays, buddhist meditation, sufi dancing, midnight masses, A wiccan coven setting a glorified gumby wickerman on fire and inadvertently summoning big red dragons, having ants crawl up my leg during a vision quest on peyote with this biker/medicine man and hearing the voices of russian monks come through a fog shrouded inlet while avoiding an equally lost pair of Orcas. I've also had itinerant bible thumpers who could barely hold their paperback revised version of another revised version upright tell me I was damned,had to arrest an AWOL recruit in Anton Zandor La Vey's Church of Satan in San Francisco and personally made open war on the local E-meter morons wearing ersatz naval uniforms festooned with more fruit salad and gold braiding than a Mission Impossible dictator. Excuse me, but I've felt the godhead in some rather culturally diverse and by even my eclectic worldview downright goofy religon's. Scientology? That cocaine inspired B.S. by a Science Fiction writer? FORGETABOUTIT!!!!!![xx(][xx(][xx(]


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

"And he rubbed the pot roast all over his chest/Excitable boy, they all said."



> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_


********************************
"It's about time some publicly-spirited person told you where to get off. The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you've succeeded in convincing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you're someone."


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

But South Park skewers everyone! Isaac Hayes has profited from the crude satire (of everybody and everything) on that program for nine years, but when it hits too close to home, he quits?

*In a GQ interview earlier this year, Stone's partner, Trey Parker, said, "To be honest, what kept us from [parodying Scientology] before was Isaac Hayes. We knew he is a Scientologist and he's an awesome guy. We were like, 'Let's just avoid that for now.' ... Finally, we just had to tell Isaac, 'Dude, we totally love working with you and this is nothing personal, it's just we're "South Park," and if we don't do this, we're belittling everything else we've ripped on.' "*


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

And the plot thickens.

*"Buy the best, and you will only cry once." - Chinese proverb*


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

What does "anonzinizing" mean? I always fancied I had a superior vocabulary, but that was a new one on me!


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> What does "anonzinizing" mean? I always fancied I had a superior vocabulary, but that was a new one on me!


Can't find it in my regular dictionary or in the jumbo economy-sized one. Where'd you see it?

Great line from "Repo Man": Did you read that book I gave you? _Diuretics: The Modern Science of Mental Health._ Read the book, man, it'll change your life.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Duane Gran_
> 
> The only acceptable groups to lampoon are Southerners, Christians and Caucasians. How strange.


And I'm all three! [:X]

Personally I've found that those who proclaim 'tolerance' the most are generally the least tolerant.

And those who disdain 'tolerance' like myself, are the most tolerant.

---------------------

Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> Great line from "Repo Man": Did you read that book I gave you? _Diuretics: The Modern Science of Mental Health._ Read the book, man, it'll change your life.


Miller: John Wayne was a ***. 
All: The hell he was. 
Miller: He was, too, you boys. I installed two-way mirrors in his pad in Brentwood, and he come to the door in a dress. 
Oly: That doesn't mean he was a ****.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Miller: A lot o' people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch o' unconnected incidents 'n things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice o' coincidence that lays on top o' everything. Give you an example; show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness. 
Otto: You eat a lot of acid, Miller, back in the hippie days?


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> 
> Miller: A lot o' people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch o' unconnected incidents 'n things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice o' coincidence that lays on top o' everything. Give you an example; show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.
> Otto: You eat a lot of acid, Miller, back in the hippie days?


Doobiddy doo-*** say what yeah.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jbmcb_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I fold.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Let's go eat sushi and not pay!


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## doccol (Nov 13, 2003)

```
Let's go eat sushi and not pay!
```
Somebody else has seen Repo Man. Way to go VS!


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I don't ride with no Commies...no Christians, either!


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

I think of late, humor (whether ethnic or not) is being delivered by Carlos Mencia. I feel he has the best take on pointing out faults in all of us. We are all different, but we're all the same and he does a great job of showing how similar we are.

Too many people are sensitive today. Too many people can't laugh at themselves. Too "few" people are dictating how society acts. If you're a scientologist be a scientologist. If someone wants to poke fun at the religion, get over it. Give it time Scientologists...I'm Catholic, a news story about a priest, some altar boys and some wine will surface soon enough.

_Deny Guilt, Demand Proof and Never Speak Without an Attorney!_​


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Making fun of peoples religions and their beliefs is just not ok. Now let me clarify, it is ok for catholics to make fun of catholics, jews or jews, etc...it is not ok for others to make fun of somene elses religion, it becomes something different. When Jackie Mason jokes about his jewishness it is one thing, when you hear a joke at work at the expense or a black or a jew or any person it is no longer funny, it is just not ok. I have walked away many times and asked people not to tell these jokes to me. Now I have a confession, I too am a bigot, there are things that I do not like in others, I don't like it but it is true and I have to catch myself sometimes and the first person to tell me they are not a bigot is the first one I look at and know they are more of a bigot than I am. Bigotry is hateful and hurtful, no matter how we differ it is not ok to poke fun at others. Saying we have gotten too soft skinned or sensitive is an oversimplifications. In some cases we have, in some cases others have gotten too bold.

guit


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gong Tao Jai_
> 
> Scientology is a crock. I would refrain from criticizing, say, Catholicism, or Judaism, in most circumstances because it is bad form. I don't think that entities like Scientology or the Unification Church (Moonies) deserve the same respect. They are transparent cults, and very recent creations. They are outside the fold of respectable religions that society offers respect to, although they try to invoke that status for themselves.
> 
> ...


I could not agree more. As someone who is rather well versed in social psychology, I have extensively studied certain cult religions such as the moonies as well as the tactics they use to gain control of their members.

I understand how an arguement can be made that almost all religions can be viewed as having certain "cult-like" aspects, however, you will not find many accounts of Christians or Jews that have managed to break from the cult and tell the story of their horrors.

The situation with Isaac Hayes is a joke. The TV show "the soup" on E showed a clip of Hayes a month ago saying that people need to relax and not be so sensitive, now this.

I will admit as I have in other threads that I believe that most people who say they're "offended" are full of it. How another person's words, especially someone you do not know, can really have a negative effect on someone is beyond me.

MrR

"Give me the luxuries in life and I'll gladly go without the necessities"


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I agree telling an ethnic joke requires forthought as to your audience. When I was stationed in Alaska on Kodiak there was one black Coastie. Joe Joe found himself trying to check into the barracks and a bigoted Master at Arms tell him to sleep in the aircrew ready room for the weekend. I silently slung Joseph's seabag over my shoulder and walked it into my room. My shipmate was this raw Arizona cowboy who looked identical to his Namesake Frank Luke of WW1 fame. I announced we had another lost soul nobody liked. Frank asked if he was another @#*&! Californian? I said no, he's a brother from DE-roit. Frank says fine, no problem.I didn't know you had family from Michigan ( he was a little groggy from a long SAR) About a week later we were playing poker and Joe Joe beat my full house and called me the 'N' word in triumph. Luke and I sort of went blank. Joseph said "what? your my brothers, your N------!" The black jokes flowed faster than Frank's Southern Comfort. Two years later Joe Joe and I reunited in San Francisco. We went to an all Black club in Oakland for a jazz concert. We were honoured with a suprise guest apperance by the great Lena Horne. I was the only black white guy( or was it white black guy? This gets confusing)in the place. I was hearing slang that joe joe had made my second tongue. But I couldn't join in, not if I wanted to live. Then this guy walks up, and without a word starts doing 'the dak' handshake with me. He saw my ribbon and I was another variation on the word brother. Again, it gets confusing. I'm just glad we can still donate blood in the same colour.


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

From fox news: 
_I can tell you that Hayes is in no position to have quit anything. Contrary to news reports, the great writer, singer and musician suffered a stroke on Jan. 17. At the time it was said that he was hospitalized and suffering from exhaustion.

It's also absolutely ridiculous to think that Hayes, who loved playing Chef on "South Park," would suddenly turn against the show because they were poking fun at Scientology.

Last November, when the "Trapped in a Closet" episode of the comedy aired, I saw Hayes and spent time with him in Memphis for the annual Blues Ball.

If he hated the show so much, I doubt he would have performed his trademark hit song from the show, "Chocolate Salty Balls." He tossed the song into the middle of one of his less salacious hits and got the whole audience in the Memphis Pyramid to sing along....

It's hard to know anything since Hayes, like Katie Holmes, is constantly monitored by a Scientologist representative most of the time. Luckily, at the Blues Ball he was on his own, partying just with family and friends. He was very excited about having gotten married and about the impending birth of a new child.

Friends in Memphis tell me that Hayes did not issue any statements on his own about South Park. They are mystified....

That certainly begs the question of who issued the statement that Hayes was quitting "South Park" now because it mocked Scientology four months ago. If it wasn't Hayes, then who would have done such a thing?_

Anybody still think Scientology is worthy of respect?


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

_I think we are on dangerous ground, however, when we begin to decide which religions are valid. Many of our ancestors came to the United States in order to escape that kind of thinking. _

That's your response to my examples of the Bhagwan and Marshall Applewhite, even though Applewhite's group committed mass suicide because he told them they would become one with comet Halle Bop. What about Jonestown and the 276 children who were forced to drink the poison Kool-Aid along with everyone else? Or what about a religion that practices human sacrifice? If you think we are on dangerous ground deciding that mass suicide or human sacrifice is an invalid religion, I completely disagree.

_I believe that once we begin deciding one religion is invalid, we are not all that far from deciding another religion is the only valid one._

Nonsense.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> _I think we are on dangerous ground, however, when we begin to decide which religions are valid. Many of our ancestors came to the United States in order to escape that kind of thinking. _
> 
> That's your response to my examples of the Bhagwan and Marshall Applewhite, even though Applewhite's group committed mass suicide because he told them they would become one with comet Halle Bop. What about Jonestown and the 276 children who were forced to drink the poison Kool-Aid along with everyone else? Or what about a religion that practices human sacrifice? If you think we are on dangerous ground deciding that mass suicide or human sacrifice is an invalid religion, I completely disagree.


I don't believe mass suicide was a basic tenent of the religion, it was the insane decision of a spiritual leader, and there is a big difference between the two. We can, for instance, be critical of Jim Bakker without condemning Christianity as a whole.

We cannot aim laws at specific religions, but there are some laws that those who practice those religions still must abide. Mainstream Mormons, for instance, have adapted to laws against polygyny.



> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> _I believe that once we begin deciding one religion is invalid, we are not all that far from deciding another religion is the only valid one._
> 
> Nonsense.


That's the way it is in many other countries, and many people moved to this country to escape religious persecution. The only thing preventing that here is the wisdom of this nation's founders.


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

Criticism and persecution are two entirely different things. The constitution prevents us from persecuting other religions and also guarantees our right to criticize them.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gong Tao Jai_
> 
> Criticism and persecution are two entirely different things. The constitution prevents us from persecuting other religions and also guarantees our right to criticize them.


Of course it's your right to criticize. And it's my right to believe you're a bigot for disparaging someone else's religious beliefs.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you guys seriously think this stuff? You subscribe to this "war on christianity" nonsense?

Shows such as South Park, The Simpsons, The Chappelle Show and The Daily Show take shots at everybody.



> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> Personally I've found that those who proclaim 'tolerance' the most are generally the least tolerant.
> 
> And those who disdain 'tolerance' like myself, are the most tolerant.


I think it is generally accepted that if you have to assign a particular quality to yourself then it is very likely you do not possess said quality.

"_I am exteremly tough"_, "_I am very intelligent_", "_My penis is very larg_e" and so on - you get my drift.

------------------


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

Crs, I believe bigotry is a term more accurately applied to the disparagement of a group of people, not a belief. "Catholics are twisted" is bigotry, "Catholicism is a twisted interpretation of Christianity" is an opinion that it is inappropriate to voice under most circumstances, but it is not bigotry. 

Why does religion get a free pass? Is it okay to criticize political beliefs? How about people who think they were abducted by aliens? Can their deeply held beliefs be criticized? 

How about somebody like Garry Will, a devout Catholic who is extremely critical of his church? Is that okay?

Some time ago, there was an unorthodox Christian religious leader in San Francisco. Eventually it became clear that he was poorly connected with reality-- he claimed that he could raise the dead. Would it have been okay to criticize him at that point?


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

I believe that criticizing clergy is fair game because they are mortal men like us. Mocking a group's conception of God or method of worship is not illegal, certainly, but in my opinion it is not something an educated gentleman would do. Deciding that a religious group is out of its minds is human nature, but it is not my place to impose my values on them or attempt to bring other people's scorn on them. They have a right to worship God as they choose. And that is the law.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> . . . . [Members of] a religious group . . . . have a right to worship God as they choose. And that is the law.


Not entirely. In the States, no human or animal sacrifice, use of certain substances, etc. And that is because a Christian sensibility still infuses the underpinning of American law.


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

Well, I think "no human sacrifice" is a pretty good place to draw the line.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gong Tao Jai_
> 
> Well, I think "no human sacrifice" is a pretty place to draw the line.


I tend to think that "all infidels must be either converted or killed" a little over the line also.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

His holyness the Dalai Lama was explaining a buddhist scripture during a Los Angeles visit.A younger monk, well regarded for his scholarship corrected him on a point of reference. His holyness disagreed. The lecture proceeded. After all, the word of the incarnate of a buddha, head of your sect and the political leader in exile of an entire people should know whats right. A few minutes later his holyness stopped mid sentence looking puzzled and spoke. With greater laughter ( think Homer Simpson doing a DUH!) He said, Oh,oh, you were right, I was wrong[:I]. I have a simple litmus test for any display of religosity. If there is humility and humor ( think the laughing Jesus portrait)I'll stick around. If they don't I keep a weather eye out for a exit sign.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...

so...this is a problem???

what if there was a "religion" that told it's followers to go around killing babys and smoking crack out of their skulls? is that a valid religion? and the only reason it would be outlawed is because _those bad Christians_ have had a hand in the lawmaking of this country???

Sorry...but I'm so sick of the kneejerk responses...why can't it be because decency and public interest infuse the underpinning of American law??? Seems to me that's more the case than some clandestine group of Christian illuminati (sp?) bending the will of the government to it's own agenda...

but then again...I could be totally wrong...although I seriously doubt it...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> 
> I believe that criticizing clergy is fair game because they are mortal men like us. Mocking a group's conception of God or method of worship is not illegal, certainly, but in my opinion it is not something an educated gentleman would do. Deciding that a religious group is out of its minds is human nature, but it is not my place to impose my values on them or attempt to bring other people's scorn on them. They have a right to worship God as they choose. And that is the law.


Well, I would disagree entirely. It is certainly permissible to mock a group's conception of God or method of worship if you think it a false and pernicious religion, likewise "bring other people's scorn on them." As far as I am concerned, religion is a system of beliefs and ideas that should be quite as liable to being subjected to debate, critical scrutiny and, yes, mockery and scorn as any political ideology. Would you say that a convinced Nazi or hard-core Marxist's beliefs should be sacrosanct from mockery or scorn? Why then should a religious system not be? I would agree that most of the so-called "great" religions--Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, etc.--have rich and venerable traditions of spirituality, art, literature and centuries of cultural heritage behind them, and I think most sensitive, thoughtful people will regard any and all them with a measure of respect, even if we happen not to agree with their specific tenets.

The case of Scientology is something else again! Here we have a preposterous, crackpot mythology cooked up by a science-fiction writer in the 1940s and '50s, a creepy, powerful hierarchy that bilks enormous wealth out of its deluded votaries with "clearing," "e-meters," etc., a vicious ethical system (e.g., the "Fair Game" policy mentioned in my earlier post), a group that spews out venom against the mental health profession...well, I could go on, but as far as I am concerned, Scientology is certainly deserving of scorn, mockery and ridicule if any system of belief, "religious" or secular, ever was!


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Illuminati are not Christians. They worship Golden Apples (and sometimes even make love to them) and drift around under the sea in a giant golden submarine while conversing with the Leviathan. Don't you people know anything? Fnord.

Adam Weishaupt and his crew were a red herring. Fnord.

Edit: My guess is that no one will have any idea what the hell this post was about but I felt I needed to include it (Ok, Kav or Patrick might get it).

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:Edit: My guess is that no one will have any idea what the hell this post was about but I felt I needed to include it (Ok, Kav or Patrick might get it).


Kav gets everything. He is the AAAC version of Dennis Miller in terms of allusions to the obscure.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah. Patrick is pretty sharp on arcane topics as well. Especially if they have to do with lizard people. Wilson told the lizards "I'll make it all true for you!"

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Tyto (Sep 22, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> The Illuminati are not Christians. They worship Golden Apples (and sometimes even make love to them) and drift around under the sea in a giant golden submarine while conversing with the Leviathan. Don't you people know anything? Fnord.
> 
> Adam Weishaupt and his crew were a red herring. Fnord.
> ...


Badrabbit: Don't whistle while you're pissing.

__________

Fair and softly goes far.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Tyto_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Tyto. At least I'm not the only one "in the know." 23 Skidoo.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn. First bosthist stumps me on something completely obvious and now I must admit I have no clue here either.

This is what working for a small weekly does to a guy.

My Arcane-dar needs checking...


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

Patrick:

Don't feel bad. I'm doing my best to live up to Seneca's dictum "It is better of course, to know useless things, than to know nothing."


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> Patrick:
> 
> Don't feel bad. I'm doing my best to live up to Seneca's dictum "It is better of course, to know useless things, than to know nothing."


Didn't he play right field for Akron in the American Association?


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Coming to bookstores soon: The da Badrabbit Code...about how Jesus and Mary Magdalene marry, and plant fake evidence for global warming.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope, it was the Illuminati.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## daltx (Jan 19, 2006)

I came across an interesting article about the Christian in Afghanistan today that was written by Tucker Carlson, who has been discussed at some length on the fashion forum. Scroll down slightly on this page and you will see the article, I tend to agree with everything in it.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Giving freedom to backward Islamic countries is like giving a new, shiny red 400HP sports car to a spoiled 16 year old.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gong Tao Jai_
> . . . I think "no human sacrifice" is a pretty good place to draw the line.


At the least; but it does go against some faiths.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by android_
> I tend to think that "all infidels must be either converted or killed" a little over the line also.


Quite -- I tend toward a laissez-faire attitude in faith: so long as the practice of one's religion doesn't harm another, let him practice it. But, as most Americans now know, that's not the attitude or the law in much of the world.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> 
> > quote:_Originally posted by rws_. . . . In the States, no human or animal sacrifice, use of certain substances, etc. And that is because a Christian sensibility still infuses the underpinning of American law.
> ...


Not at all. Though what I posted is true, I'd hope that the irony wouldn't escape my fellow posters: we enjoy the religio-ethical situation we have in America because of the conscious, deliberate actions of a particular faith; had another faith founded and shaped the country over the past four centuries, our views might have been quite different.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cannot be so generous with my attitudes. I believe that if the fundamental beliefs of a religion are wrong, then practicers should not be let off the hook just because they don't practice the religion devoutly. That is my major problem with Islam. the only "good" muslim is not a devout muslim.

One of the core teachings of the religion is convert, enslave or kill the infidels. To deny the core tenets and claim that it is a loving and kind religion is pure bunk.

Or to quote to ridiculous position of the Afghanistani judge, "We are a tolerant religion, so we will give you one last chance to covert back to Islam from Christianity before we kill you."

On the other hand, a truly devout Christian or Jew would probably cause his fellow man no harm. Of course there are those that commit evil in the name of God and Christianity, but the basic premise of Chrisianity is to treat your neighbor well. God will send them to hell in the afterlife if they turn out to not be the correct religion and denomination required for entrance into Heaven but you have no religious obligation to expedite the process.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by android_
> 
> One of the core teachings of the religion (Islam) is convert, enslave or kill the infidels. To deny the core tenets and claim that it is a loving and kind religion is pure bunk.


I'm not familiar with the Koran. Are you sure that this is one of the core teachings of Islam? Obviously some have interpreted it that way but the vast majority of Muslims have not.

I mean, there are passages in the Bible about killing unbelievers amongst other stuff that cannot be taken literally. Doesn't make it a core belief of Christiansm, as you point out.

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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Ummmm..... You decide.

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4 
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

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KORAN promises of houris in heaven:

Single-minded slaves of Allah... will be honored in the Gardens of delight, on couches facing one another; A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, white, delicious to the drinkers, wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, pure as they were hidden eggs. - Surah 37:40-49

Lo, for those who ward off evil is a happy journey's end, Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for the, wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink therein. And with them are those of modest gaze, companions. This it is that ye are promised for the Day of Reckoning. - 38:50-54

Lo! Those who kept their duty will be in a place secure, amid gardens and water-springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.... And we shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes. They call therein for every fruit in safety. They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell, a bounty from thy Lord. That is the supreme triumph. - 44:51-57

Lo! Those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight... reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes... and we provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire.... - 52:17-22

...Reclining upon couches lined with silk brocade, the fruit of both the gardens near to hand.... Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.... - 55:54-56

Those are they who will be brought nigh, in gardens of delight... reclining therein face to face. There wait on them immortal youths... and fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls, reward for what they used to do.... Lo! We have created them a creation, and made them virgins, lovers, friends. - 56:11-37
(Different translation) Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... virgin-pure and undefiled.

--------

Koran "sharia" punishments:

As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. - Surah 5:38


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> I mean, there are passages in the Bible about killing unbelievers amongst other stuff that cannot be taken literally. Doesn't make it a core belief of Christiansm, as you point out.


There are instances in the old testament where the Jews were commanded to make war and kill specific groups or inhabitants of specific cities.

However, I don't think it could be shown that there was ever a general order to kill non-believers in either Judaism or Christianity. (Nor Buddhism or Hinduism either....)


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Android, I will leave it to you. Please quote the Qu'oran in regard to jews and possession of Jeruselem.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> Android, I will leave it to you. Please quote the Qu'oran in regard to jews and possession of Jeruselem.


I'm not sure what you mean. Jerusalem isn't specifically mentioned but that doesn't really matter.

Think about it this way. If I was your commander in a jihadic holy war and I told you to go kill all the infidels, and then you asked me what city, I would slap you upside the head with the flat of my scimitar and yell, "All of them, you ninny!"


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

I'm going to go out on a limb here are suggest that Kav is refering to the bit in the Koran where it says that the Jews will be displaced from their land only twice (Babylonians and Romans). Thus the implication that the Koran recognizes that the Jews are the rightful owners of Isreal because the Koran implies that they won't be displaced a third time. Granted, only a non-Muslim would ever read it that way, but there you go.

It is perhaps worth mentioning that the Muslims never really cared all that much about Jeruselem until the Jews took it back. In the last 3000 years, the only time it has been the capital of anything was with the Jews and, briefly, with the Crusaders. Under 1400(?) years of Muslim control, it was a dingy little backwater town that was basically ignored in favor of Mecca.

To get back to Scientology for a minute, does anyone else think that Katie Holmes was drugged or brainwashed or something? Fairly normal appearing girl (for Hollywood, at least) disappears for two weeks and comes back converted, engaged, and cordoned off from the rest of society by her new handlers. Scary.

CT


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

It's amazing to me that we can debate in all seriousness whether simply _speaking critically_ of Scientology is intolerant, while at the same time in Afghanistan clerics are calling for the death of Abdul Rahman because he converted to Christianity.

" 'The Quran is very clear, and the words of our prophet are very clear. There can only be one outcome: death,' said cleric Khoja Ahmad Sediqi, who is also a member of the Supreme Court."

That's _real_ intolerance.


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