# Is quality of Allen Edmonds on the decline?



## Avers (Feb 28, 2006)

I was at a shoe store recently and looked at current offerings from Allan Edmonds. Two things noticed that got me concerned about the direction of the company is heading:

1) Proliferation of new cheaper lines - shoes with rubber soles, simpler design and cheap leather upper. 

I am talking about shoes such as Back Bay, Tribeca, etc. They are still made in the USA, but quality is lower that previous AE models with leather soles - I own Benton - they were made as solid as any AE model with leather sole at the time, except for the rubber sole. Bentons are also very durable - I've been wearing my pair for 4 years and they still look great. Current crop of AE with leather soles seems cheaply made, flimsy and not durable - I doubt they will last more that 1-2 years. 

I realize these new models are priced lower - in low $200s instead of regular leather soled shoes in $300s, but they seem to be destroying the image of the AE brand in general.

2) Traditional AE shoes use cheaper and lower quality of materials.

Compared to older models, the following features point to cheaper construction in current AE models:

- thinner soles,
- thinner leather on the body of the shoe,
- black insoles instead of non-painted ones - do they paint them to hide imperfections in the leather?
- less attention to details - such as sloppier finish around edges and shoe not keeping it's shape (I mean that opening of the shoe used to be almost perfect oval, not I see some deformities in the contour of the shoe).

Overall feel of the shoe construction is less solid and more on the flimsy side. Alden shoes still have that refined feel when you hold the shoe in your hand, but Allen Edmonds not anymore... Which makes me concerned where will AE be if this trend continues.

Those are just some of my observations, I am curious to see if more forum members agree with them.

Best, 
avers


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

The difference perhaps between wanting to make shoes and just wanting to make money?


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

I stay away from AE and stick with Alden primarily for the quality issues noted above, and because many of their models remind me of stuff you'd find in a JCPenney shoe department circa 1975.


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## hohne1 (May 12, 2010)

I don't think the quality of their "normal" offerings has changed much. Granted, they have a more affordable line - Crosstown Collection - that was designed as a more affordable line within AE. I don't know how you sell a shoe for $125 less without using a bit lower quality materials. But I hear the Crosstown Collection at is being discontinued this Fall to be replaced with a better built, better looking shoe in the same price range.

As far as the insoles, they are back to a non-black insole now. They tried that for a few years and people didn't like them, so I guess they switched back. In fact, they now have some shoes with poron/leather insoles that are extremely comfortable.

I like the fact that they are offering a more affordable line. I think the price of "regular" AE's puts them out of range for some. If someone can get into the brand at an entry level and then move up as income, etc. improve, I think it helps build the brand. GM uses the same philosophy with the Chevy, Buick, Cadillac progression.

I recently purchased my first pair of Aldens - primarily because they were deeply discounted and I liked the suede style. I have worn Allen Edmonds for over 20 years. The Aldens are nice, no doubt about it. But I wouldn't put them in a league far ahead of Allen Edmonds. The Aldens are about $100 more than the AE's at retail, and I can see the extra $100 in the Aldens. However, I am not a fan of steel shanks, so I still prefer the Allen Edmonds.

And this Fall, Allen Edmonds is supposed to come out with the Independence Collection - a line of shoes priced more like Aldens with higher grade leather, nicer soles, etc. I am thinking if the new Allen Edmonds are priced like the Aldens, they are going to be as nice as the Aldens.

Chris


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## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

I think sometimes that companies get to a certain point in their development where either economies of scale, or shareholder pressure, or the need to grow force them to change a business model. For example, some smaller English companies, take Truefitt and Hill, get to a point and they sell out, or their rent goes up or a son or two come into the family business, and the need to increase monies taken out for salaries increase. So for say AE, they have a certain market share. There is a theory that you either continue to grow your business or you die. What with the increase of casual dress in the workforce, the economy taking a hit, and the decline in what we might say is proper dress, they are stagnant as far as growth. Thus, they have ample production facilities, times and fixed costs that just beg to develop the lower end of the market.

This makes me think of when LVMH takes over a designer, and expands their lines, either fashion or cologne.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

My understanding is that leather soles have been losing market share for some time. AE has a dress rubber sole, thin, and from the side view at a distance looks pretty much the same as a leather sole. An example is the Van Ness. I find that during the day I feel no difference in comfort, leather or dress rubber. In the face of changing market demand, IMO AE has found a suitable alternative to an all leather sole lineup.


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Greetings Avers -- Thanks for your question. When I first joined Allen Edmonds as CEO in August 2008 and then joined the AskAndy community, there were a few threads about supected quality declines at AE. The black insole, as Chris observes above, was a mistake and a hot button for people who thought we had made a strategic decision to go "down market and down quality" like some other manufacturers before us. Much has happened in the past 3 years. (This is my second attempt at this post -- I spent so long composing the first draft that the site logged me off and I lost the submission in trying to log back on. I'll be more succinct this time...)

-We've returned to the natural insole, without any shellacking or other additional treatment to it. Some slower turning styles or slower turning sizes are still in store inventories with the black insole, though. Input from AskAndy friends was a big part of why we switched back.

- We've expanded and completely upgraded both our quality control and our product development teams, combining new, high level QC process expertise and styling insights from outside the company with the great shoemaking knowledge and expertise that made Allen Edmonds great. We've literally quadrupled our QC staff under a Six Sigma, MS in Engineering Head of Quality, who had worked previously in QC for a global manufacturer.

- Our die-hard dedication to Made in USA manufacturing of welts is evidenced by the roughly 120 production employees we've hired since early 2010, while working overtime basically every week since then to keep up with demand. The substantial growth in welted style offerings, including the return of several "Timeless Classics" previous administrations had discontinued, are evidence of our intensity in this regard.

- Our new Rough Collection, Honors Collection (golf shoes) and Independence Collection (super-premium shoes at an incredible value) have been at the core of our recent product development and are off to fantastic launches. 

- However, we've also decided to stop forfeiting the largest segment of the U.S. men's shoe market. I hated forfeits playing sports as a kid. Allen Edmonds has missed much of the explosive shift to sub-$200 business casual shoes in the marketplace over the past 30 years. We'll no longer forfeit this game. We have developed a new line of shoes, called "ae by Allen Edmonds", that will be made in our wholly-owned plant in the Dominican Republic of very high quality leathers (but not as expensive leathers that we use in our USA shoes) and a proprietary rubber sole that we designed for comfort and traction. The shoes will debut at $170. Our goals with this line, as MemphisLawyer suggests above, are to grow our company by competing more broadly and appealing to a greater percentage of American men, to bring our higher quality leathers, construction quality and styling DNA to this segment, to introduce our brand to younger and less affluent customers who may be candidates to upgrade to USA welts over time, to be more relevant and secure greater shelf space in major chain retailers (whose customer bases predominantlyaren't looking for $300 shoes). The "ae" in the new logo dominates the image to make sure that we clearlydifferentiate this line from our Made in USA Allen Edmonds shoes. Still, they will offer that AE promise of "much more for your money"/premium value that established and has sustained Allen Edmonds over its 90 year history.

Thanks again for your question. Feel free to contact me if you want to know more.

Best wishes,
Paul


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## Shade22182 (Nov 5, 2005)

Paul,

At the risk of hijacking this thread, is there a reason why Allen Edmonds has stopped producing dress shoes with the 3-last? Related question, I heard a rumor that AE will be bringing back the Chester ... is that true??

Shade22182


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Greetings Avers -- Thanks for your question. When I first joined Allen Edmonds as CEO in August 2008 and then joined the AskAndy community, there were a few threads about supected quality declines at AE. The black insole, as Chris observes above, was a mistake and a hot button for people who thought we had made a strategic decision to go "down market and down quality" like some other manufacturers before us. Much has happened in the past 3 years. (This is my second attempt at this post -- I spent so long composing the first draft that the site logged me off and I lost the submission in trying to log back on. I'll be more succinct this time...)
> 
> -We've returned to the natural insole, without any shellacking or other additional treatment to it. Some slower turning styles or slower turning sizes are still in store inventories with the black insole, though. Input from AskAndy friends was a big part of why we switched back.
> 
> ...


Paul,

Thank you for your post and for the information. I applaud AE's decision to capture a larger portion of the market.

At a quick count, I own a dozen pairs of AE's, and I look forward to purchasing my next pair. I can see myself possibly being a buyer at any of the product levels mentioned.

Peter
San Diego


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## hohne1 (May 12, 2010)

Thanks for the reply Paul. I am really looking forward to the Indpendence Collection. My local clothing / shoe store salesperson told me he saw them at market and he said they look amazing. I can't wait to see them.

Chris


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## rvan (Aug 2, 2010)

hohne1 said:


> Thanks for the reply Paul. I am really looking forward to the Indpendence Collection. My local clothing / shoe store salesperson told me he saw them at market and he said they look amazing. I can't wait to see them.
> 
> Chris


I hope these Independence Collection will be available in EEE, I'm still waiting to buy my dress shoes for my wedding in February and have my heart set on some American made beauties.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Greetings Avers -- Thanks for your question. When I first joined Allen Edmonds as CEO in August 2008
> 
> Thanks again for your question. Feel free to contact me if you want to know more.
> 
> ...


Paul thanks for the post, I hope things work out and you able to capture another segment of the market. Please keep producing new/old shoes I've got a special order on the Strawfut in the pipeline.


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## shore living (Jul 7, 2011)

*AE decline in quality?*

Haveing just purchaseing a pair of Strand cap toe oxford was very happy with quality/price. Being a US shoe also,was a plus. Wanted dark brown bit loafer,also. In researching checked Gucci and Fergamos offerings and not pleased with price/quality.Gucci's sole was also too thick or offered lugged.NG as was the Feragomo. At Nordstroms, my salesperson and I checked the Edmonds sight and find a perfect looking bit loafer. Unlike most Edmonds,Italian made but 125.00 cheaper then the aforementioned. A plus is will order with NO deposit wanted till viewed and tried. Both companies are great vendors.​


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

I've made these points in the past and thought I would weigh in again on the subject.
From my own experience, I have been servicing AE footwear for nearly 35 years.
For decades they represented the pride and prestige of an American made product.
In the early 2000's, I started to get complaints regarding quality going downhill. Heel bases on new shoes would pop off, soles and heels would wear quickly, stitching would loosen were prematurely.
In the beginning I didn’t pay much attention. Then I began to realize that customers were complaining on a regular basis. To add, I was also getting complaints about CS being unresponsive. As I started to pay more attention, I also started to realize the not only was quality and CS in decline but, they simply had lost or were not pursuing a vision. Simply put, they were becoming stale and tone-deaf to there market. The result of which was their reputation (deservedly so) was severely impacted in a negative way. 


When Goldner Hawn purchased AE in 2006, they inherited all of this. They had an up-hill battle to correct the damage. In addition to correcting the manufacturing and CS flaws, I suspect one of their biggest challenges was to improve the public's perception of the direction of the company.
Within a year of the G.H. purchase there was a noticeable decline of customers complaining about faults in newer purchased AE shoes. I started hearing positive comments about experiences with AE CS.


In terms of the quality of materials used, aside from the black insoles (which has been addressed). 
I don't see any significant differences. In fact, I would suggest some other improvements. For instance, I can't remember the last time a customer came in complaining about poor wear on the soles and/or heels. Nor, do I get or see stitching coming loose on newer shoes.


So, from my experience, not only is AE a better product then it was in recent years but, they expanded their markets and, keep a close eye on what their customers want and expect out of them. No doubt their CS is the best in the shoe industry. As a company, they are committed to a vision while maintaining and satisfying the traditionalists by bringing back some previously discontinued models.


As a result of all this, I would submit that their production is much greater than it was when G.H. punched the company in 2006. In order to chive this, at one point they had to lay-off some employees.
As the company grew healthier they expanded and started rehiring. Very difficult to do in the economic climate of recent years especially when their competition moved offshore.


I work on C.J.'s, Lobb's E.G.s Church's, Kiton's, Westons (to name a few) everyday.
I get asked several times a week, “what is the best shoe”. My standard answer is, “that's an unfair question because you have to factor in price-points. Given that, I think in the $300.00 range AE provides the best value for your money.”


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Nick V:

Much of the value of this forum is found in comments of knowledgeable aficionados, but more valuable still are evaluations by expert professionals such as yourself, evaluations that for me carry much more weight than 100 WSJ articles. Your comment above is the closest those of us outside NYC will get to being able to sit next to you at a bar, (or share a cup of coffee,) and hear you tell it like you see it. If ever we should meet, the first round is on me.

Regards,

Alan


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

I applaud Nick V.'s intelligent comments. I have said the same thing in a number of posts. Put simply, when you factor in price, quality, selection and service, you can't touch AE. They win hands down.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Nick V said:


> Within a year of the G.H. purchase there was a noticeable decline of customers complaining about faults in newer purchased AE shoes. I started hearing positive comments about experiences with AE CS.
> 
> In terms of the quality of materials used, aside from the black insoles (which has been addressed).
> I don't see any significant differences. In fact, I would suggest some other improvements. For instance, I can't remember the last time a customer came in complaining about poor wear on the soles and/or heels. Nor, do I get or see stitching coming loose on newer shoes.
> ...


Interesting. I own maybe 20 or so pairs of AE, but haven't bought any since propbably around 2005 (most recent shoes have been Alden shell). I would have thought the acquisition of AE by a private equity firm would have produced exactly the opposite effect i.e., the drive for a given rate of return would have forced more cost cutting and declines in quality.

I appreciate your comments and am glad to hear that AE has improved (though I never had any complaints on their quality when I bought them). I'm full up on calfskin shoes, but if AE offered a shell boot, I'd be buying.


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## bobharley (Mar 28, 2011)

Paul,

I read somewhere you indicated that you were bringing back the Mora and if I recall correctly you were adding it to the custom shoe options. I have been waiting for this to occur. Do you have any information when we can expect to see them? Thanks.


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## AllenEdmonds (Dec 1, 2008)

bobharley,

You will see the Mora on the custom site sometime in August.

Thank you,


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## hellomarty (May 9, 2009)

Nick V and Paul,

Do your customers also notice that the black leather from AE has been stiffer over the last 5 years? My question is, why and when will black AE be soft supple leather like the browns again?

Thanks,

Marty



Nick V said:


> I've made these points in the past and thought I would weigh in again on the subject.
> From my own experience, I have been servicing AE footwear for nearly 35 years.
> For decades they represented the pride and prestige of an American made product.
> In the early 2000's, I started to get complaints regarding quality going downhill. Heel bases on new shoes would pop off, soles and heels would wear quickly, stitching would loosen were prematurely.
> ...


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Avers said:


> Current crop of AE with leather soles seems cheaply made, flimsy and not durable - I doubt they will last more that 1-2 years.


So, you don't own any of these new shoes, then you acknowledged they are much cheaper than AE mainline and meant to be en "entry level" shoe - yet you still feel qualified to speak on their ability to last over the long haul?

Funny stuff.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

hellomarty said:


> Nick V and Paul,
> 
> Do your customers also notice that the black leather from AE has been stiffer over the last 5 years? My question is, why and when will black AE be soft supple leather like the browns again?
> 
> ...


Hi Marty--

Frankly this is the first I'm hearing of this.
Is there a particular model that you are referring to?


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## deveandepot1 (Jul 5, 2010)

They are now making the uppers in the USA. I think the quality is likely getting better not worse.


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## Barrister & Solicitor (Jan 10, 2007)

From my info, they've always made the uppers in the US (except for the Italian models). The calfskin for black shoes is imported from somewhere in Europe.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Avers said:


> Overall feel of the shoe construction is less solid and more on the flimsy side. ... Which makes me concerned where will AE be if this trend continues.
> 
> Those are just some of my observations, I am curious to see if more forum members agree with them.


Haven't purchased any AE for almost 2 years, but own a couple dozen from 2-5 years ago.
Those were very well made, and they are holding up strong. Usual wear is evident--creasing, scuffs, etc--despite one wishing it otherwise. The wear-in time was considerable, the leather being tough on most models, but I'm fine with that: once they are molded to my feet, the shoes are comfortable and durable.

I'm not sure if there is a quality shift since late 2009, but prior was all cat's meow. Love their shoes. Wouldn't trade them for an Alden.


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## hellomarty (May 9, 2009)

Nick V said:


> Hi Marty--
> 
> Frankly this is the first I'm hearing of this.
> Is there a particular model that you are referring to?


Park Ave. and 5th Ave. BLACK.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

smmrfld said:


> I stay away from AE and stick with Alden primarily for the quality issues noted above, and because many of their models remind me of stuff you'd find in a JCPenney shoe department circa 1975.


Are you stoned, smmrfld?! Lately, Alden's quality issues make Allen Edmonds' quality issues look like a day at the beach by comparison.


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

smmrfld said:


> I stay away from AE and stick with Alden primarily for the quality issues noted above, and because many of their models remind me of stuff you'd find in a JCPenney shoe department circa 1975.


I think you may have to update your prescription glasses acquired at a JCPenney optical department circa 1975.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

PTB in San Diego said:


> I think you may have to update your prescription glasses acquired at a JCPenney optical department circa 1975.


Don't listen to smmrfld, PTB in San Diego. Even the biggest Alden lovers that are also the biggest Allen Edmonds haters admit that Alden's recent quality issues are frequent and intense enough to make Allen Edmonds quality issues look like a day at the beach by comparison. Yet smmrfld thinks (or, shall I say, is under the delusion) that Alden is not having any quality issues.


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## TailoredFed (Feb 6, 2011)

I want to chime in to say that I have only purchased one pair of AEs in my life and I did so only after reading numerous threads discussing the brand on this website. At the time of my purchase, the only AEs I had were a very old pair of black Park Avenues that my father gave to me when he retired. He handed them over, still in their AE shoes trees and AE shoe bags, and told me to take care of them and they will last forever. I did not listen to his advice and I let the Park Avenues deteriorate quite a bit. 

Anyway, fast forward to today and I love my brand new AEs. After seeing Paul post on this website and demonstrate the company's commitment to excellence, I will be sticking with AEs going forward. Those black Park Avenues? I am sending them in for top-of-the-line recrafting today! Thanks for maintaining such a great American company Paul!


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## Avers (Feb 28, 2006)

Dear Paul,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply, I am happy to see that management of the company is committed to producing quality product.

I am a bit concerned about the fact that company is now owned by a private equity investor, such investments normally aim at profitability at any cost, including moving production overseas and switching to mass-market product. We've seen some great names destroyed during this process and I honesty hope Aleen Edmonds will go different route.

I am and will be a loyal fan (with over 10 pairs of Allen Edmonds shoes that I own), and hope that some minor issues are thing of the past!

Best regards,
avers



AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Greetings Avers -- Thanks for your question. When I first joined Allen Edmonds as CEO in August 2008 and then joined the AskAndy community, there were a few threads about supected quality declines at AE. The black insole, as Chris observes above, was a mistake and a hot button for people who thought we had made a strategic decision to go "down market and down quality" like some other manufacturers before us. Much has happened in the past 3 years. (This is my second attempt at this post -- I spent so long composing the first draft that the site logged me off and I lost the submission in trying to log back on. I'll be more succinct this time...)
> 
> -We've returned to the natural insole, without any shellacking or other additional treatment to it. Some slower turning styles or slower turning sizes are still in store inventories with the black insole, though. Input from AskAndy friends was a big part of why we switched back.
> 
> ...


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Although I can see the business case, I feel a real pang of sadness that a great American company like Allen Edmonds is going to start another naff diffusion line from the Dominican Republic...

Whats next, JL by John Lobb?:icon_pale:


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## Avers (Feb 28, 2006)

I felt that way when I saw a pair of Bruno Magli shoes made in China 

Although BM shoes are not on the top of my list, I felt sad that a respected Italian name with long enough history outsourced some of its products to Asia.



Haffman said:


> Although I can see the business case, I feel a real pang of sadness that a great American company like Allen Edmonds is going to start another naff diffusion line from the Dominican Republic...
> 
> Whats next, JL by John Lobb?:icon_pale:


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## Unregistered (Mar 13, 2008)

I love my AEs, but I must say I do feel a big difference in leather quality between my '09 Fifth Avenues and '11 Van Ness. The Van Ness feels a bit more "plasticky" and actually creased in the cap toe within 2 wearings...


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## Bucksfan (May 25, 2008)

I have 14 pair of Allen Edmonds, including 8 pair of shell, 3 in black calf, 2 in "polished cobbler" (corrected grain) and 1 pair of walnut grain calf Macneils. I initially purchased my AEs because of their stellar reputation among the general public. I also have a mentor who has 20 pair of his own, and steered me in that direction early in my career. After my first 2 pair, I continued to buy because i believe the quality / cost ratio is very high. 

On the black calf: I think the leather on my '10 Van Ness is very similar to my '07 Park Ave, but my late 90's graysons are better. I also have the beginnings of a crease on the cap of my van ness, but attribute it to last differences and/or the the rubber sole being more flexible than a leather sole (particularly the cap toe section).

The walnut pebble grain on my '10 macneils is great - soft and supple. 

It seems to me that the shell has actually increased in quality of late. It could be too small a sample size to matter, but my shell Randolphs, Macneils and Bradleys from last year are made of significantly thicker shell cordovan than my Randolphs from 7 years ago. (I'd say 50% thicker). Of course, this could just be variances from horse to horse...

I personally am happy to see AE going after the younger generation, as that obviously is the future of their business (how many retirees continue to buy dress shoes at any significant rate, excepting those on this forum?). If a lower price point is necessary in order to gain market share in that demographic, then so be it. As long as a high quality, made in USA line is available from AE, this 33 year old will continue to buy (and recraft). I would prefer to see them keep the "Allen Edmonds" line separate from AE.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

My experience with AE.
I drove to the Orlando (company store) to take a look at some Strawfut's about a month ago. They didn't have anything in my size, the salesman A was knowledgeable, Showed interest in my Alden LW shells as well. I wound up placing a custom order for the shoe online.
I took my older son to the AE store in Orlando over the weekend to get fitted for some shoes, I had measured his foot at the local mall but wanted to check an actual AE shoe to see how the lasts ran. My orginal plan was to only pick up a new belt for myself and check for 2nds from the outlet.
The salesman did a great job, he knew his product, knew the history of the company, and even knew Paul's name. I was so impressed I wound up picking up a pair of PA's with discounted shoetrees from the Brick and Mortar store. AE's done a great job hiring and training and are making a nice product.
Well done.


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

I went in the new company store in Charlotte this past weekend and it was nice. The company chose the right location for foot traffic. I hope they continue to invest as much in their shoes as their overhead. 

I am still haunted by bad memories of J&M opening up company stores while simultaneously outsourcing all of their shoes.


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## JackParrish (Jul 17, 2011)

If anything, the quality of AE is on the rise from the recent years. All companies go through periods of wax and wane. However, in my research and reading on this forum and other places the executive leadership at AE is as good as it can be. In fact, I've read a few posts from an executive at the company on this forum recently. They have a clear vision for the company are are extremely involved in the quality control of their product. 

I know it's romantic to look back at the "good old days" when everything was made better, but in reality even the old ways of doing things don't apply to the current world. The volume of product and increased education of clients is horrifically demanding on companies. Previously, an attorney would order a new pair of custom tassel loafers and if something was wrong on delivery he'd call in, talk to the shoe maker, and get it corrected. Nowadays, that same attorney can get on the internet and post six dozen reviews of the "poor craftsmanship" and start twenty threads on the topic before the cobbler has even had a fair chance to correct the problems that (inevitably) happen in the crafting business. 

If you want to buy some great shoes, buy AE. Or Alden. Or find some Cable and Co's and restore them. Point is, there are options. And AE is one of the excellent ones--also an American company to boot.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

JackParrish said:


> Previously, an attorney would order a new pair of custom tassel loafers and if something was wrong on delivery he'd call in, talk to the shoe maker, and get it corrected. Nowadays, that same attorney can get on the internet and post six dozen reviews of the "poor craftsmanship" and start twenty threads on the topic before the cobbler has even had a fair chance to correct the problems that (inevitably) happen in the crafting business.


Why the hostility towards attorneys?


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## JackParrish (Jul 17, 2011)

Nothing. I've studied law and work with a brood of them every day. I was more "using myself and my friends as an example." No worries.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

JackParrish said:


> Nowadays, that same attorney can get on the internet and post six dozen reviews of the "poor craftsmanship" and start twenty threads on the topic before the cobbler has even had a fair chance to correct the problems that (inevitably) happen in the crafting business.


 This had me in stitches. I can already tell you're going to be a good thing for the forum. :icon_smile_big:


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

JackParrish said:


> If anything, the quality of AE is on the rise from the recent years. All companies go through periods of wax and wane. However, in my research and reading on this forum and other places the executive leadership at AE is as good as it can be. In fact, I've read a few posts from an executive at the company on this forum recently. They have a clear vision for the company are are extremely involved in the quality control of their product.
> 
> I know it's romantic to look back at the "good old days" when everything was made better, but in reality even the old ways of doing things don't apply to the current world. The volume of product and increased education of clients is horrifically demanding on companies. Previously, an attorney would order a new pair of custom tassel loafers and if something was wrong on delivery he'd call in, talk to the shoe maker, and get it corrected. Nowadays, that same attorney can get on the internet and post six dozen reviews of the "poor craftsmanship" and start twenty threads on the topic before the cobbler has even had a fair chance to correct the problems that (inevitably) happen in the crafting business.
> 
> If you want to buy some great shoes, buy AE. Or Alden. Or find some Cable and Co's and restore them. Point is, there are options. And AE is one of the excellent ones--also an American company to boot.


I don't really think we can accept shoes with problems simply because volume of product problems. Not at this price point. There also doesn't seem to be much difference in making a good Goodyear welted shoe now and in days gone by.

Leather quality for uppers seems to be a recurring issue for shoes between 200-500$.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with AE, although I am a bit hesitant about the sub 200$ market. I am not sure that it's really a forfeit in the long run not to make sub-quality products. It capitalises on brand, but does somewhat dilute the premium status of the brand. Of course, with good qc and full control of an offshore production, I'm sure they can make cheaper shoes with ok quality. However, it's important that the company sticks to making a quality shoe even though it's made offshore.

And posts on forums etc are a vital part of consumer power on the market, ensuring that a problem product can't be sold as many times before the market catches on. Nobody benefits from non-disclosure.


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## JackParrish (Jul 17, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> I don't really think we can accept shoes with problems simply because volume of product problems. Not at this price point. There also doesn't seem to be much difference in making a good Goodyear welted shoe now and in days gone by.


From a business perspective, that is exactly the tradeoff you will face. Volume of product is absolutely coordinated with quality. The fact that you can go to any Nordstroms or AE boutique and buy a pair of AE shoes is exactly the reason that there are occasional challenges with the process. So once a company grows, you must "accept" shoes with a regular range of normal issues or you'll just keep jettisoning brands and only buying small shop shoes. However, they will take a while to complete, there will generally be a wait, and they will be more expensive.

What makes up for these normal issues in volume manufacturing is EXCELLENT customer service. Things will go wrong, but how does the company deal with this? If they make it right, then they have done all they can.

I'm also suggesting that AE doesn't really have any unique problems right now. The company made some bad strategic decisions earlier in the decade, but for those who have been keeping current on the company the truth is that they have great leadership and are making a great product. They've been listening to their customers and using very good materials and manufacturing in general.

Now one person or another may not prefer AE to it's competitors. That's more than fair. But I don't know that it would be accurate to characterize AE as "shoes with problems" compared with competitors in the same market space.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

My dozen pairs of AEs are fantastic. Of course, I compare them to the stuff I used to buy before that memorable day in 2007 when I decided I had had enough and walked into the AE store on Connecticut Avenue here in DC. I coughed up roughly twice the amount I had ever spent on shoes before...and have never regretted it for a second. Great value for my money, and made by our fellow citizens. I have also had several occasions to interact with AE employees, and every time I value the company, and their shoes, even more.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

Bjorn said:


> And posts on forums etc are a vital part of consumer power on the market, ensuring that a problem product can't be sold as many times before the market catches on. Nobody benefits from non-disclosure.


You may view such posts on forums as "consumer power". Maybe that's true in some cases. However in the case of AE and the way it's run I disagree. They have been responsive to comments here, they have acknowledged that our input has helped them to deliver what the consumer is looking for, they have thanked posters for both positive and negative remarks in an effective and gracious way. In short, they seem to appreciate all feedback and, take it seriously in order to continue to improve.
The way you used the words "Consumer power" can be viewed as a threat or intimidating to a company. I accept your point.
However, maybe I'm naive, but from I've seen and read, I don't think AE views it as such. Rather, I think AE views their customers as partners, helping them to continue to strive for excellence at their price-points and deliver what you want.
They have listened to us and reacted to us with non-disclosure (as far as I've seen).
How many companies can you say that about these days?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Nick V said:


> You may view such posts on forums as "consumer power". Maybe that's true in some cases. However in the case of AE and the way it's run I disagree. They have been responsive to comments here, they have acknowledged that our input has helped them to deliver what the consumer is looking for, they have thanked posters for both positive and negative remarks in an effective and gracious way. In short, they seem to appreciate all feedback and, take it seriously in order to continue to improve.
> The way you used the words "Consumer power" can be viewed as a threat or intimidating to a company. I accept your point.
> However, maybe I'm naive, but from I've seen and read, I don't think AE views it as such. Rather, I think AE views their customers as partners, helping them to continue to strive for excellence at their price-points and deliver what you want.
> They have listened to us and reacted to us with non-disclosure (as far as I've seen).
> How many companies can you say that about these days?


I agree and I only used consumer power in the economical sense. Also, if there were no posts, AE could not respond.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

JackParrish said:


> From a business perspective, that is exactly the tradeoff you will face. Volume of product is absolutely coordinated with quality. The fact that you can go to any Nordstroms or AE boutique and buy a pair of AE shoes is exactly the reason that there are occasional challenges with the process. So once a company grows, you must "accept" shoes with a regular range of normal issues or you'll just keep jettisoning brands and only buying small shop shoes. However, they will take a while to complete, there will generally be a wait, and they will be more expensive.
> 
> What makes up for these normal issues in volume manufacturing is EXCELLENT customer service. Things will go wrong, but how does the company deal with this? If they make it right, then they have done all they can.
> 
> ...


 Perfectly Said. Many here are trying to make problems where none exist.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

JackParrish said:


> From a business perspective, that is exactly the tradeoff you will face. Volume of product is absolutely coordinated with quality. The fact that you can go to any Nordstroms or AE boutique and buy a pair of AE shoes is exactly the reason that there are occasional challenges with the process. So once a company grows, you must "accept" shoes with a regular range of normal issues or you'll just keep jettisoning brands and only buying small shop shoes. However, they will take a while to complete, there will generally be a wait, and they will be more expensive.
> 
> What makes up for these normal issues in volume manufacturing is EXCELLENT customer service. Things will go wrong, but how does the company deal with this? If they make it right, then they have done all they can.
> 
> ...


I don't think that's really true.

Some would argue that with a larger volume there is the possibility of stronger qc and better process management, resulting in larger uniformity and less products that are deficient, or at least less of them that are sent out.

At least if we compare products with equal consumer pricing per unit.

For me it's important to know if people are having problems with a product that I'm looking to buy. So I think posting problems, as well as posting positive experiences (reviews), is important.

I agree that AE does not necessarily have problems with leather uppers etc, but I do welcome posts from buyers who think they do have a problem. They can then explain, post pictures, discuss etc. Nothing wrong with that.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Bjorn said:


> Some would argue that with a larger volume there is the possibility of stronger qc and better process management, resulting in larger uniformity and less products that are deficient, or at least less of them that are sent out.


 Name one producer of mens clothing (or accessories) that has both "large volume" and high quality?


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

mrkleen said:


> Name one producer of mens clothing (or accessories) that has both "large volume" and high quality?


Err :icon_scratch:....Ermenegildo Zegna?


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## JackParrish (Jul 17, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> I don't think that's really true.
> 
> Some would argue that with a larger volume there is the possibility of stronger qc and better process management, resulting in larger uniformity and less products that are deficient, or at least less of them that are sent out.
> 
> ...


I'm not seeing it, Bjorn. At least with textiles and handcrafted goods, you will always have higher quality in the luxury end of the spectrum when a trained and experienced human can put eyes, hands, and knowledge into every piece of material and every step of the process.

Further, Six Sigma is built around the idea that rigorousness and perfection can be had in any process--including manufacturing--but also that the more prolific the process and the greater the mass of moving pieces, the more rigorous you must be to control it and keep it in line.

You and I are in agreement that both the positive and negative feedback are necessary in the process. However, I also believe that the more knowledgable and detailed the comment (positive or negative) the more meaningful the data point. "AE just doesn't seem as good as they did before", and similar comments are not really a meaningful data point. How well does the commentor understand quality? In what sense did he mean they don't "seem" and what was his idea of "good?" Do they work poorly or have visible defects? Were his memories of the past more romantic than they truly were, or like most of us is he much more knowledgeable about such things now so that NO product can seem to impress us as much now as when we were less knowledgeable and mature?

I love good and detailed criticism. I learn from it at light speed. In my business and in my personal life, it's like rocket fuel for improvement. But in the same way that meaningful/detailed criticism is a powerful force for change, meaningless criticism is tremendously unuseful and if anything just provokes our human need to complain and feel powerful by being arbiters over things whether we are good at doing it or not.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Haffman said:


> Err :icon_scratch:....Ermenegildo Zegna?


 High volume? Really? Like they make enough clothing to service Target or Walmart (or hell, even Brooks Brothers?) No company that makes OTR suits that START at $2700 can be considered, high volume. that is a specialty item all day long, sorry.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

mrkleen said:


> High volume? Really? Like they make enough clothing to service Target or Walmart (or hell, even Brooks Brothers?) No company that makes OTR suits that START at $2700 can be considered, high volume. that is a specialty item all day long, sorry.


According to wikipedia they made "600,000 sleeve units suits" per year. They also made suits for Dunhill, Tom Ford, Gucci and have factories in Italy, Switzerland and Mexico. How many do they have to make to be counted as high volume ??


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Haffman said:


> According to wikipedia they made "600,000 sleeve units suits" per year. They also made suits for Dunhill, Tom Ford, Gucci and have factories in Italy, Switzerland and Mexico. How many do they have to make to be counted as high volume ??


 Not sure. Do they have an assembly line where they can start to fine tune their QC and process management - or do they achieve the former because much of it is made by hand, and in fairly small quantities? Does anyone here seriously think of Zegna as a mass producer of clothing?


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## Sharpe (Apr 20, 2010)

How many would call a OTR suit a finished product anyway, still need to take it to a tailor. 

Think of size runs too; a company like Zegna will make suits in 20 sizes maybe (don't forget Tom Fords great comment about not making clothes for larger people) verse AE where you can get a Park Ave in over 100 sizes standard! This will add another piece for QC to worry about.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

mrkleen said:


> Not sure. Do they have an assembly line where they can start to fine tune their QC and process management - or do they achieve the former because much of it is made by hand, and in fairly small quantities? Does anyone here seriously think of Zegna as a mass producer of clothing?


You asked for a clothing manufacturer of high quality and large volume. Im not sure if thats the same as a 'mass producer'. I would still submit Zegna. I suppose it depends on the definition of 'large volume'. Berwin & Berwin, the archetypal high volume suit producer of the UK, makes something like 950,000 suits per year. If Zegna makes anything like 600,000 that would seem comparable. They certainly dont seem to be a boutique/cottage industry manufacturer, notwithstanding the elements of hand finishing in their products.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

mrkleen said:


> Name one producer of mens clothing (or accessories) that has both "large volume" and high quality?


AE, Barbour, Seiko, TM Lewin, Cheaney, Loake, Zegna, LL Bean, Church's

I'm not sure how big they need to get to qualify as 'large volume'. However, if large volume producers like AE can't offer good quality, then why are we buying there products?

Because they can?


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## JackParrish (Jul 17, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> AE, Barbour, Seiko, TM Lewin, Cheaney, Loake, Zegna, LL Bean, Church's
> 
> I'm not sure how big they need to get to qualify as 'large volume'. However, if large volume producers like AE can't offer good quality, then why are we buying there products?
> 
> Because they can?


I don't know what the original intent was, but I'm sure the poster wasn't suggesting that simply because volume expands that quality bottoms. The issue is only that they deal with MORE quality issues and that, from time to time, deal with pains in the process. And I'll bet that all of the shops mentioned deal with more complaints now than they ever did.

Also, I doubt anyone would argue that any of the luxury brands that moved to large production is the same quality as when it was a single bespoke house. It's just much easier to quality control products at that level. As you expand, you must find manufacturing processes, employees, and materials that can keep pace. There's a principle in sociology that deals with this called the routinization of the charisma. Essentially, all of these small shops are founded on the charisma of their leaders who have a passion for their product, but over time to preserve that "passion" and the product the company must institutionalize and create consistent products and the culture shifts from being a bespoke shop to a large company with annual reports and OSHA regulations.

As said before, AE dealt with some poor strategic decisions earlier in the decade but now has new leadership and has PROVEN with this group that they are trying to make a fantastic product, with fantastic availability, and they are listening to their customers. I'm not sure what else you can ask of them. My guess is there are Six Sigma black belts in their operation now though it didn't seem there were many there before if at all.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Bjorn said:


> However, if large volume producers like AE can't offer good quality, then why are we buying there products?
> 
> Because they can?


 You seem to be in the distinct minority of those here who are suggesting AE has a quality issue. Just becasue you keep saying it, doesnt make it so. Sorry.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Although I have noted a (probably well founded) veneration of and protectiveness of Allen Edmonds in AAAC, and those that speak against this company do so at their peril, I dont think Bjorn was in fact criticizing their quality. In his latest post he gives them as an example of a large volume/high quality manufacturer...

On the issue of handmade versus production line products, its difficult to make a fair comparison without also factoring cost and value-for-money. Nevertheless, having recently read 'Bespoke' by Richard Anderson on his time as a master tailor on The Row I was shocked at the quality control issues and sometimes appalling customer service in such venerable tailoring houses. I hope things have changed since then (sadly I am not wealthy enough to find out). Nevertheless, It would be interesting to have data on how many product 'failures' per thousand there are bespoke vs production line. They might not be that different.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Sadly, it may not be a thing of the past. I've seen some pretty damning evidence against a certain bespoke firm with regards to fit and QC issues. Now I'm no bespoke expert (nor have I commissioned anything yet), but with as low as the armholes were, I thought I was looking at an off the rack suit at first. Not a good thing.


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## ddonicht (Jul 21, 2011)

I am brand new to this forum and to higher end shoes in general with Florsheim and Cole Haan being my previous standard. I must say that it is a good sign that someone like the CEO of Allen Edmonds cares enough to be reviewing a forum like this and responding to things. It shows that he does in fact care about his company's reputation and has been trying to make things better. A few years ago I saw a post that the CEO of Home Depot made saying that he'd reviewed some blogs/message boards and saw a lot of what was being said about his company. He freely admitted that the path the company had gone down wasn't a good one and vowed to turn things around bringing in more staff and the like to improve the customer experience. And you know what, after I read that post what he promised did start happening at those stores and it did in fact become a better place to shop again. I hope that is the same case here. 

I just bought my first pair of Allen Edmonds (a pair of black Delrays) and comments like Paul made really impresses me about a company. It makes me expect that this pair will not be my last and that Allen Edmonds is a company I will buy from for years to come. In fact I'm seriously considering a pair of shell cordovan loafers and this means I am more seriously considering Allen Edmonds than Alden or one of the other brands. 

For those that complain about them producing a "lower end shoe" in the form of the AE by Allen Edmonds brand, the answer is very simple...don't buy them. Just because they are making those, it doesn't mean the quality of their other lines has changed in the slightest. It just means that as a company they have tried to open up their sales to a new demographic that might not have purchased them before. If nothing else they may end up being a gateway shoe and when those people get to trust the brand, they will be more willing to spend more the next time on one of the higher quality lines. Then you'll have someone new who shares your appreciation for the finer things in life. 

Take care and enjoy your weekend.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

JackParrish said:


> I'm not seeing it, Bjorn. At least with textiles and handcrafted goods, you will always have higher quality in the luxury end of the spectrum when a trained and experienced human can put eyes, hands, and knowledge into every piece of material and every step of the process.
> 
> Further, Six Sigma is built around the idea that rigorousness and perfection can be had in any process--including manufacturing--but also that the more prolific the process and the greater the mass of moving pieces, the more rigorous you must be to control it and keep it in line.
> 
> ...


Agreed


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

mrkleen said:


> You seem to be in the distinct minority of those here who are suggesting AE has a quality issue. Just becasue you keep saying it, doesnt make it so. Sorry.


Agreed, and I think it should be a 'rule' at these types of fora to post pictures of any problems.

It's of course problematic to compare new leather with older leather, newer shoes with older shoes, because the overall quality is a 'feeling' of the sum of components.

However, if some feel that this or that shoe is not as good as it used to be, then that is interesting information for all of us, if it can be discussed a little back and forth.

I mean, if for example AE where to say that 'No, we make that shoe in the exact same fashion, with the same quality uppers we always have' then that's pretty much that. I don't really think AE has a quality 'problem'. I think what they do is select a level of quality in components and manufacture at a certain price point. What we do at the forum is discuss if the level has been chosen correctly, which is beneficial both for AE and us.

There are two kinds of posts that are not very helpful:
1. 'OMG my AEs are the SUXXZOR I rant-cry and send them back cause they aren't like grandpas AEs' (the flamer post), and
2. 'OMG you say your AE belt is deficient you are deficient and should be shot by the militia' (the fanboy post).

I don't think we've posted either a 1 nor a 2 above though.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Agreed perhaps, except the unfortunate use of the word "flamer." :icon_pale:


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

While I can't speak for the quality of the past couple years, I can say that for my tastes their shoe selection is just a tad lackluster. What happened to their bucks--the Orleans--or their whole-cut--the Westgate--or even a proper, patent-leather, formal, evening-wear oxford? While their choices aren't so bad, the scope of AE's current catalog is narrower than when I became a fan.

Sure, they have golf shoes... and they are trying to get expanded to several markets. I can see their business approach is changed slightly. However, there are a few proper mainstays that haven't stayed but should have.


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## hellomarty (May 9, 2009)

I purchased my AE Fifth Avenue in Walnut December 2010. I've worn it about 5 times and now I see the heel is beginning to split on the left shoe...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Contact customer service about it, hellomarty. They stand behind their products 100% and that certainly shouldn't be happening.


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## hellomarty (May 9, 2009)

Last year, I ordered the AE PA in Walnut grain color direct from the factory as soon as it was available. The heel also split on that one and it took about one month for the repair through AE (claim to received back by me). Mind you, it was fixed and free shipping both ways, but this time around, I bought the 5th Avenue through Nordstrom and it will probably a day to exchange for a new pair.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Agreed perhaps, except the unfortunate use of the word "flamer." :icon_pale:


Basher would perhaps have been more fitting... Less ambiguous.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I would have just said "flame."


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

What a wonderful thread--NickV's post as well the AE CEO's were great reads. I think also that peterc's comment about AE winning "hands down" on availability, quality, and price is spot on. There are other good shoes available to American buyers; mostly through the internet (and many of these involve converting euros and pounds sterling to dollars). AE's are readily available in AE shops in most major cities, and they usually have the size one wants. Nothing like trying on a shoe before buying it.

I also notice an improvement in AE's quality. As for rubber soles, most Crockett and Jones shoes have a rubber sole (albeit part of a stacked leather configuration) as do many Church's. The CEO said it best when he said that one is losing a market share by not offering the kind of sole that buyers these days understand better than they understand a leather sole. I look at it as an option--not for me--but for other buyers, and I don't think that's so bad.

I also notice that AE has a number of new models that have some continental and English country swag about them--the Elgin and the Mactavish. These have beautiful stacked leather soles, full broguing, and interesting stitching--and they are priced to GRAB buyers at $295! (Try to find Trickers or Vazz or even Grensons for that money.)

Also encouraging is that while AE is reasserting its traditional quality and adding new models that borrow traditional quality from European designs, other American shoe makers are trying to push models into the traditional dress shoe market. Wolverine and Red Wing both have new crossover models, which indicates to me (hopefully) that more American buyers are interested in good shoes and will likely rediscover AE.


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## anselmw (Jul 5, 2005)

great comments to hear as I thought I was alone in noticing the quality issue. I have purchased two pairs in the last year. My leeds cordovan had misaligned stitching where the sole joins to the upper. My park Avenue's had similar issues near the heel. Not sure if it will impact the performance of the shoe but disappointing for this to happen on shoes that cost between $300 and $500.

I applaud the CEO for going after a market area that they feel they have missed. Rubber soles are definitely a plus for travel. You just never know what surface you will be dealing with so I usually use my Hugo Boss or Bruno Magli's for travel.


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## Starting Late (Apr 26, 2010)

Hey, I am not an owner of AE and do not care about what lines they offer or will offer to what parts of the market. I also do not care about who owns AE, the expansion of AE's business or how many QC employees are on the floor.

I care about the quality and price of the product I want to buy. That's why I buy AE shoes. I own PAs, 5th Ave.'s, Strands, Lombards and Cliftons. They are all top-quality shoes that have performed exactly as I expected.

I could buy higher priced shoes, but I have no desire to spend a higher price.

I am a satisfied customer.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Haffman said:


> Although I have noted a (probably well founded) veneration of and protectiveness of Allen Edmonds in AAAC, and those that speak against this company do so at their peril, I dont think Bjorn was in fact criticizing their quality. In his latest post he gives them as an example of a large volume/high quality manufacturer...


Perhaps what you're noticing is a backlash effect. When I joined AAAC there was a very vocal group that would have everyone know that Alden was a clearly superior shoe. I, along with several other members, began to ask specific objective questions about the so called superiority of Alden shoes. (Alden's quality was almost always mentioned in reference to Allen Edmonds inferiority)

It wore thin. It wore thin mostly because it's simply not true.

So yes, you may notice that members, myself being among them, are not going to let the snide opinions masquerading as fact about Alden being a superior shoe go without reply.

Also I always find it necessary to say I love my Alden shoes, they're every bit as fine a shoe as my Allen Edmonds.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Nonetheless, Alden has gotten dinged for their customer service. Since they're a smaller company than AE, you'd think this would be paramount...


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## cactus1954 (Aug 30, 2011)

Hi all,
I have been a reader of the site for a while, and being that I recently became a AE customer, I would like to comment.

After buying Florsheim and Johnston & Murphy all my life until now, and decided it was time for me to upgrade my shoes (and wardrobe in general), I shopped them pretty hard. Since I had liked them in the past, I tried them first. And being in my mid 50's, price isn't the constraint it was in my 20's.

I am not an easy fit, being (usually) a 13C. If a D runs narrow, or a B runs a little wide, those can work well for me. C-width really isn't easy to find in stores. I rarely find much selection since a medium (D) usually runs too wide for me.

So I made several internet orders to Florsheim and J&M, trying B's and D's. I probably got a total of 16 pairs from them, and kept only one model of Florsheim. It was a $100 loafer with rubber sole, D width that runs narrow. Among the Florsheims was an Imperial (their premium level?). Talk about disappointing. They all went back. Florsheim quality has really slid badly and I am done with them. J&M was better quality, and I liked some of their stuff, but just couldn't get the fit and quality I wanted. So they all went back also.


I discovered Allen Edmonds after reading in forums like this one and bought a couple pairs during the July Nordstrom sale. I am impressed.
I made a factory order also, and a Sherman Bros order with the discount code from this forum, and after some trial and error, found the #5 and #9 lasts seem to be best on my foot. Long story short, now have a Strand, Wilbert, Randolph, and Cody. I have a McAllister, and two more Randolphs on order. They're all calf, but maybe some time I'll try a cordovan. 

I'm pretty picky about details and quality, especially when paying for higher end things like these shoes. I just feel they are very substantial and the quality is there. Granted I have not tried Alden or others, so I can't speak to comparisons of AE to any other higher end mfr's. Since I am so often disappointed in fit and quality when I try on shoes, I am really tickled to have gotten onboard with AE. I put these on and just go, "Wow." 

I did have to return a pair of LaSalle's to Nordstorm. But it was not due to any quality issue. It apparently runs narrow, so the 13D width and length fit me very well, but I was getting heel slip. They appear to have a wider heel opening than the others I have? I tried putting tongue pads in to push my foot further back, but it didnt seem to help. Hated to take them back, as I really liked them.

Does anyone know what other models they don't offer in a C, but the D might run narrow in? 

Anyway, just wanted to say that I can' t compare the AE's of the past to what they put out now, but with several new pairs and counting, I am (so far) very pleased and not feeling any need to look elsewhere. I hope they will include more C width in future models.
I think they are a great value.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

cactus1954 said:


> Hi all,
> Does anyone know what other models they don't offer in a C, but the D might run narrow in?


From the web page above pick the shoes tab, then select the last you are interested in.
On a side note AE will make the shoes in a C if you do a special order for $50.


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## Sharpe (Apr 20, 2010)

cactus1954 if you live in Phoenix go visit the Allen Edmonds store there. You will get a better idea for what fits you by visiting one of their stores and getting professionally fitted.


Location
Allen Edmonds 
Biltmore Fashion Park
2502 E Camelback Rd; Ste 100A
Phoenix, Arizona 85016
USA

Phone: 602-267-1410
email: [email protected]


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## cactus1954 (Aug 30, 2011)

Yes I did visit the local store, and of course as usual with all stores, their stock of C's was almost non-exisitant. They had one pair. I did get measured as the 13C likely being the best fit, and trying on the one pair they had (Wilbert) helped confirm it.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ The Wilbert is on the #1 last. I too wear a "C" width and I get the best fit of all with the #1 last. I can't imagine a better fit for my foot than the Allen Edmonds #1 last.

Remember just because you may wear a "C" width in the #1 last does not mean that it will be the same for other Allen Edmonds lasts. As an example I can get away with a "D" width on the #5 last, which is what the the Park Avenue and my most recent purchase, a pair of McTavish, are constructed on.








Knowing I get the best fit on the #1 last naturally I wanted a pair of their new Big Sir's. But it is not currently being offered in a 'C" width. But for the up-charge that has been mentioned they can make a pair up for you.







Just had to have them.

Good luck.


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## cactus1954 (Aug 30, 2011)

It is good to know for the extra $50 anything (or st least a decent number of them) in their line is possible. I imagine a custom made pair would not be returnable, though, if you just didn't like the way to ended up feeling after you got them? I could understand them not being returnable.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

AE are pretty flexible and their customer service is unparalleled. I'm sure they'd at least try to make it right in some way.


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## cactus1954 (Aug 30, 2011)

As I stated earlier, I am a fan of AE. I believe I have 8 pairs now. I returned 2 pairs out of that total, since to me, they had defects that made them unacceptable. The others were just fine.

I just got the last pair,walnut calf McAllister's, from Sherman Bros.

This last pair is good except where one line of stitching just about ran off the edge of the piece of leather that was being attached, causing the edge to turn up and not lay smooth. But that does not rise to the level of needing to return it.

The spot that irritates me, is on one heel, where apparently a grinder got loose and made a gouge. I am surprised the person making these did not smooth it down there before applying the stain. Now I am contemplating getting some sandpaper out and sanding it down, and re-staining it. That's a bit dicey, because if it works, fine. But if I make it worse, then I own the problem. It seems to me they are rushing the finishing too much, letting a grinder cause a notch like that. I can likely fix this well enough, but find it irritating that after paying not far south of $300, I am figuring out how to repair this?? I have no doubt it was noticed, and it should have either been repaired, or made these into "seconds."

Instead, it was just shipped out as factory first quality. This may seem like quibbling to some, but at this price point, I don't think so.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
The shoe pictured certainly is returnable, but the flaw pictured is less noticable that the damage that might be done to your sole edge the first time you walk over a gravelled surface. A minute or two with a Dremmel tool (fitted with a buffing drum) and a bit of sole edge dressing will have those shoes looking like new in either case. Try to keep in mind that "hand work" brings with it human error(s)!


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

I just got a pair of Fifth Avenues (bought while on sale), and the quality is excellent. This is only my second pair of AEs, but I'm really happy. Very comfortable on the first day of wearing, no noticeable defects, the leather is actually softer than my Park Aves (but in a good way). I don't have any "vintage" AEs, so I can't compare, but I feel like I'm getting an excellent shoe for the price.


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## audog (Apr 19, 2009)

Took delivery of another 3 pair of AE's during the recent sale. Strawfut, PA and 5th Ave. All are perfect, no issues with leather, sole, heel. So in my opinion, the quality is there as it has always been. I'm up to 30 pair of AE's now, plus a few J&M (old) and a few Alden. Would choose AE over any other shoe out there.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> The shoe pictured certainly is returnable, but the flaw pictured is less noticable that the damage that might be done to your sole edge the first time you walk over a gravelled surface. A minute or two with a Dremmel tool (fitted with a buffing drum) and a bit of sole edge dressing will have those shoes looking like new in either case. Try to keep in mind that "hand work" brings with it human error(s)!


You're very kind in your remarks eagle. At times I think images should be required before anyone will reply to a thread that has to do with a quality control/flaw in a product issue.

cactus, I'm sure you realize that this could have been from anyone dropping the shoe one time if it hit a sharp edge. It could be "Fixed" so to speak in five minutes.

In my opinion it would be another issue all together if the leather was marred or scuffed but a flaw on the level of what you've posted to the edge of a sole on an item that is handled by heaven only knows how many people during the production process is a bit of a stretch.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

After three weeks, my local shop got in the pair of Chocolate Williams I ordered. I got them on the last day of the sale – and for $375, they are GORGEOUS shoes. Much softer leather…much nicer soles…much more padding in the shoe bed….just a great looking shoe. They included a shoe horn, gray flannel shoe bags, and a nifty retro styled box to round out the package.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ Great that you were able to get a pair in the new Independence line! I just don't think I can hold out much longer for a pair of Jefferson's in walnut burnished calf with the matching Manistee belt.

Congratulations.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
I am waiting on a pair of the Independence line's Rush design. The line must be popular...last time I checked on the status of my order, the waiting list had grown substantially from the number on the list when I first ordered the shoes. I think myself a patient man, but must admit that mrkleen's post has indeed wet my appetite for the pending delivery of those venetian loafers. :crazy:


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

mrkleen said:


> After three weeks, my local shop got in the pair of Chocolate Williams I ordered. I got them on the last day of the sale - and for $375, they are GORGEOUS shoes. Much softer leather&#8230;much nicer soles&#8230;much more padding in the shoe bed&#8230;.just a great looking shoe. They included a shoe horn, gray flannel shoe bags, and a nifty retro styled box to round out the package.


Would love to purchase the Jefferson model, but I just bought the Strand in dark brown and I already own the Cambridge in burgundy cordovan and dark brown MacNeils. Can't justify buying dark brown Jeffersons. *Note*: Not a fan of walnut, and probably won't buy another pair of black shoes in at least ten years.

I'll survive, but grudgingly so...


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## cactus1954 (Aug 30, 2011)

127.72 MHz said:


> You're very kind in your remarks eagle. At times I think images should be required before anyone will reply to a thread that has to do with a quality control/flaw in a product issue.
> 
> cactus, I'm sure you realize that this could have been from anyone dropping the shoe one time if it hit a sharp edge. It could be "Fixed" so to speak in five minutes.
> 
> In my opinion it would be another issue all together if the leather was marred or scuffed but a flaw on the level of what you've posted to the edge of a sole on an item that is handled by heaven only knows how many people during the production process is a bit of a stretch.


I agree with you both, except it was a grinder goof, rather than a ding from being dropped. Seen in person, it's apparent. Yes, I am going to fix it myself. Wouldn't be worth the trouble of a return. It's just below that level, to me. But it still irritates me. Somebody finishing that shoe decided to push the goof off on me as first quality, rather than spend 3 extra minutes makng it better. QA should have rejected it as well.
But I'm reasonable, I know you can't expect perfection. I understand we no longer live in the day of true craftsmanship, and we have to adjust.....to a point. And this pair almost exceeded that point, but not quite.

And the 3 pair I still have on order from the recent sale will meet "reasonable" expectations, or they will get them back.

My job as a consumer is to choose a product, pay the whole bill, and be reasonable in my expectations. In return for me choosing them from among all their competitiors (and helping to keep them in business), their job is to produce a good product in a timely fashion. To the extent they acoomplish that will determine how long I stay their customer.


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Greetings AAAC -- I've just caught up on this thread after several weeks of travel. Hopefully, I met some of you along the way at in-store customer receptions during our Rediscover America Sale. I appreciate the good dialogue above. Here are responses to some of the points....

- Regarding splitting heels. We have in fact had this problem this year and there are two reasons for it (both easily addressed and both derivative of increased orders with the significant trend back to welted shoes). We had to move the heel-preparation section of our line earlier this year in order to accommodate additional stations for lasting, welting, sole attachment and trimming and finishing. We discovered that the new physical distance from heel-prep to heel-attachment allowed the adhesive to lose a little of its stickiness. We've addressed that now and thoroughly pull-tested our new solution, with excellent results. Our heel suppliers supply other welted shoe companies besides us and have also been under the gun due to increased demand. They had their own quality problems and it took us some time to discover them. This has also been addressed now. If your heels crack, please do bring them to us and we'll fix them.

- On the stiffness of our black custom calfskin, I've read this complaint a couple other times in AAAC threads since I first joined. I assure you that we buy this leather from the same tannery and with the same formula as we have for years. We also buy our finishing compounds from the same supplier. There should be no difference. The Van Ness was made with a slightly different leather. It is indeed a little softer and more pliable than our Black Custom Calf, and that consistency allows it to break a bit more across the ball of the foot.

- I'm really glad you like the Independence Collection shoes. It's the sophisticates in this community and their like for whom we designed this line. I was also specifically thinking of the desire for a softer leather when we chose these skins. They are tumbled and tanned twice as long as other shoe leathers, and they are hand selected as the cream of the crop. It's more expensive leather for sure, which explains the price of the shoes. The finished sole and combination heel are top of the line also. I especially like the "wheeling" touch on the top of the welt extension. We hadn't done wheeling in this factory in a very long time (nobody remembers when we last did). One of our production line leaders, who's been here over 20 years, hand finishes each one to make sure it's done right. It took him several pair to get the technique exactly as we wanted it. So...the finest leather, the customized sole and heel, sophisticated wheeling and a lambskin lining for extra soft comfort.... all for an AE value promise. Sorry to sound like an ad, but I do love these shoes.

- Regarding the breadth of product selection in our current catalog. I don't understand this comment, so please let us know what you'd like to see from us. We counted recently and we have over 100 (or about 40%) more styles in the line today than we did in 2007. It's our goal to deepen our relationship with our core customers by re-introducing and/or staying committed to their Timeless Classics, and by expanding their AE wardrobe options to cover 7 days a week, day and evening, . Our second goal is to appeal to first-time Allen Edmonds customers with a much broader selection of styles, leathers, soles, artisan finishings and touches. I hope you all have noticed the enhanced finishes on our browns over the past year. I challenged our team to take the finishing part of our game up to a much higher level and they have succeeded. We do indeed have a new patent leather shoe (the Mayfair) coming out, by the way. The plain toe Kenilworth (not quite whole piece leather as a blucher, but close) is one our bestselling new dress welted style.

-Six Sigma Black Belt? Yes, our head of quality control, whom I brought in from a much larger Milwaukee manufacturer two years ago, is a Master Black Belt. He has taught us a lot about quality control processes and we've taught him all about handcrafted shoes.

Finally, another note of thanks. Despite the economic uncertainty, our Rediscover America Sale was a huge success this year. Our efforts to expand our product line have met great support from our loyal customers. The McTavish is a top 3 selling style overall for us in 2011. To my knowledge, we've never had a new style rise that far that quickly before. We're grateful for the chance to serve more of you more often, and for the chance to hire 120 (and growing) new teammates in our Port Washington plant. Seeing so many new people with jobs, wages and benefits on our line is very gratifying for us, and you and our other loyal customers have made it possible. Thank you very much.

Be well,
Paul


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Excellent reply.


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

Wow, that was a good reply. I'd like to compliment the customer service, both over the phone and via email, that I received during the recent sale.


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## JoshESQ (Sep 20, 2010)

I appreciate Paul's time on the site, as CEO I am sure he has a lot on his plate.


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Greetings AAAC .... Be well,
> Paul


Bravo.


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## mateorico (Dec 24, 2011)

*Serious concerns about new stitching of soles.*

I just went to Nordsroms and picked up a pair of Allen Edmonds, which I have always respected as a quality brand for the price. The new shoes seem to have the soles stitched in an entirely different way, which immediately reminded me of the way Johnston and Murphy soles are stitched. The sales guy tried to tell me they were the same as always, but I looked at all the shoes and found 1 pair with the old stitching. It was undeniable that the stitching has changed. I see that the CEO has monitored this thread so please explain what is going on. Do I have to now buy the independence line to get the old quality stitching? will the Shell cordovan shoes be stitched in the old way or with this new process? I think AE has been bastion of quality at a reasonable price, but I am greatly concerned about these recent changes to the manufacturing process.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
You are a bit vague as to the specific nature of your concerns, mateorico. Which shoe designs are you attempting to compare/comtrast? What exactly is it about the stitching that you are concerned with? Why approach your inquiry suspecting/expecting the worst? It is quite possible that there is a positive explanation. :icon_scratch:


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## mateorico (Dec 24, 2011)

At Nrdstroms alll the new shoes except one pair have a distinctly different stitching pattern and thread than all old AE shoes. The AE website still shows the old style for all the shoes so I assume they have not yet updated thier website. The new stitching pattern and thread looks very similar to Johnston and Murphy. I am not sure if this is indicative of an overall change in manufacturing techniques, but the soles are now being stitched differently than they were in the recent past.


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## Sharpe (Apr 20, 2010)

Do you have any pictures to show this contrast? When I look at my old AEs, new AEs and even recrafted AEs I really do not see any differences that would be a sign of concern.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes, it's best to show a picture before drawing comparisons with other brands. Nordstrom having exclusive models need not mean they are below par compared to AE's standard fare.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Taken Aback said:


> Yes, it's best to show a picture before drawing comparisons with other brands. Nordstrom having exclusive models need not mean they are below par compared to AE's standard fare.


Alternately, if Nordstrom only models are below par that doesn't mean that AE is slipping in their construction quality. Only, that Nordstrom wanted to cut wholesale costs.


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## calfnkip (Mar 21, 2011)

I’ve seen plenty of instances where shoe factories made either private label or exclusive styles for department stores. In many of these cases, the store needed to bring the shoes in at a particular wholesale price point and that often determines everything from selection of hides to stitches per linear inch to glued vs. Goodyear welt construction.

It doesn’t always mean lesser quality, but it often does mean different than what you’d get if you bought directly from the manufacturer or at one of their official outlets. 

Big box stores like WalMart and Best Buy have been telling suppliers how to make their products for years. That’s why let’s say, an ‘X’ model TV will be configured somewhat differently in a big box store than it would be if you’d bought it at full price at the manufacturer’s dealer. 

It's done all the time, and not just with shoes.


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## mateorico (Dec 24, 2011)

The changes are made to all the regular AE shoes, Strand, Walden, fifth and park avenue and so on. I don't have pictures and the change is very recent.


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## hellomarty (May 9, 2009)

So to clarify, if Nordstrom has the Strands or Park Avenue on their Anniversary Sale for $199 I shouldn't really buy it because it was made specifically for Nordstrom for their sale and would be less in quality and using lower grade leather? It is then a "you get what you pay for" mentality?

If so, that's good to know, I'll go directly to an AE store next time!


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

I'd be very surprised if the PAs sold by Nordstrom differ from PAs purchases online directly from AE. Would be interested in what AE's CEO might be able to tell us.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

^ I'm with you mike. I think it's all hogwash. I was just in Nordstrom for their sale yesterday and all the AE's were in the up and up. Furthermore, I could see a special make up have subtle differences from a main line shoe but I just can't believe that's the case with the main models Nordstrom has. 

I also can't seem to find a nordstrom only make up this year. I have gotten some wingtips like this in years past that wear just great. 

PS they have the players shoe in black and brown on sale now for 219.90$.


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## mateorico (Dec 24, 2011)

What I have been trying to say is that I think AE has very recently changed their manufacturing process. the soles are now being stitched in a different way than they were before. It looks like lower quality machine stitching similar to J&M. I don't think this is about Nordstroms.


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## Sharpe (Apr 20, 2010)

Can you at least discribe what you saw that would make you believe that AE is cutting corners. I have looked at my shoes which range in age from older then my married to a few weeks and I really do not see any difference in the stitching.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

I too just received the Dalton Walnut shell boot which was made less than 2 weeks ago and the stitching looks the same.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Some of Nordstrom's AE's specify USA *or *imported. See example -

https://shop.nordstrom.com/s/allen-edmonds-strawfut-oxford/3145020?origin=category

Could that be what mateorico is describing? Is AE going off-shore?


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

^perhaps, but I'm inclined to think not. I would bet that they added the "made in US or imported" when they started to offer all the crosstown collection. It seems like they really took to that collection which, as we know, were made with glued soles off shore.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

firedancer said:


> I would bet that they added the "made in US or imported" when they started to offer all the crosstown collection.


That would be plausable except that they only apply it to specific models, and some models are described as made in USA, only.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

mateorico said:


> What I have been trying to say is that I think AE has very recently changed their manufacturing process. the soles are now being stitched in a different way than they were before. It looks like lower quality machine stitching similar to J&M. I don't think this is about Nordstroms.


No offence, but have you been reading anything they've said?


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

Flanderian said:


> Some of Nordstrom's AE's specify USA *or *imported. See example -
> 
> https://shop.nordstrom.com/s/allen-edmonds-strawfut-oxford/3145020?origin=category
> 
> Could that be what mateorico is describing? Is AE going off-shore?


It looks like Nordstrom uses that language so they can use the same manufacturer's description on every Allen Edmonds shoe. The "AE by Allen Edmonds" shoes are made in the Dominican Republic.

For what it's worth, the stitching is the same on all my AEs regardless of where they were purchased (including a pair from Nordstrom).


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

I was trying out Allen Edmonds custom shoe ordering and noted that they had several different styles of welt stitching to choose from...


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

CAG said:


> It looks like Nordstrom uses that language so they can use the same manufacturer's description on every Allen Edmonds shoe. The "AE by Allen Edmonds" shoes are made in the Dominican Republic.
> 
> For what it's worth, the stitching is the same on all my AEs regardless of where they were purchased (including a pair from Nordstrom).


I'm uncertain what you mean?

The link from my post you quoted specfies USA or imported.

The link for this shoe -

https://shop.nordstrom.com/s/allen-edmonds-benton-cap-toe-oxford/3123793?origin=category

specifies made in the USA only.

Nordstrom's AE page contains many shoes, and they specfically differentiate shoe models that are only made in the USA from other models at the same price that are either made in the US or off-shore.

https://shop.nordstrom.com/c/allen-edmonds?origin=brandindex


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Indeed, AE has never made a secret of the fact that certain lines and, earlier, specific handsewn designs were crafted in the Domincan Republic (don't they even have an AE manufacturing facility in the DR?) and that selected shoe designs offered in their collections were of European manufacture! What exactly has changed? Where is the sereptitious intent(!)? :icon_scratch:


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

Flanderian said:


> I'm uncertain what you mean?
> 
> The link from my post you quoted specfies USA or imported.
> 
> ...


Well, that makes things more interesting. I only clicked on a few, and they happened to have the same description, so now I just going to say it's that whoever creates the product description got confused by language somewhere that says the shoes are made of imported materials? Just a guess, but that would fit with my experiences of working retail.


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Happy New Year, Everyone --

I assure you that we have not changed the stitching method or welt/sole construction on our Goodyear welted shoes. Moreover, we do not sell a different construction to Nordstrom than we sell in our own stores. Nordstrom is our largest wholesale customer by far, and they get the very best we have to give.

The only sewing change that we made was several months ago when we went back to the thicker thread diameter that we had used in years gone by (before 2007). We wanted to have the thread fill the groove in the sole more than with thinner thread, and we liked the vintage look of the thicker thread on both sides of the welt. The thinner thread was just as strong, but we like the thicker thread look better -- it's true to our heritage and our work over all but a few of the 90 years we've now been in the shoemaking business.

Our welts are all "Made in USA". If the leather is from Europe, as our calfskin is, we need to say "of Imported Materials" because of the high imported material % in the shoe. 

As I've blogged on our website and also described here on AAAC, and as was mentioned above, we do own a plant in the DR where we make our "ae by Allen Edmonds" shoes. Although our USA welted and better handsewn shoes are clearly our core products and well over 90% of our sales today, we decided to get into the sub$200 MSRP shoe market so dominated by shoes that have cemented rubber soles and that are imported mostly from China or India. Our versions are made in the DR in our own plant by our employees who report to Jim Kass (our head of production in Port Washington, WI). We also are making some boat shoes in the DR, in order to be competitive in that genre (we have some new baseball-themed boat shoes coming out in a couple months, watch for those if you're a fan -- they're pretty cool). Cemented sole shoes and boat shoes are huge markets and we got tired of forfeiting all of that market share and of missing the chance to become acquainted early with younger buyers who start off with lower end shoes. We were also losing too much shelf space in major national retailers whose customers rarely look for welted shoes at the higher prices. To stay in their shoe departments and to have the Park Avenue and a couple other Timeless Classics still presented as part of an Allen Edmonds collection, we entered the cemented bottom category. We also believed that we had great American styling, better leather and sole quality, and strong customer service advantages to bring to these retailers and to their customers. However, to be absolutely clear that these shoes differ from our Made in USA welts and handsewns, we use this sub-brand name "ae by Allen Edmonds". So when you see, "ae by Allen Edmonds", the shoe was made in the DR. When you see just "Allen Edmonds", it's a Made in USA shoe.

I hope this clarifies the original post on Page 4 of this thread about sole stitching.

Thanks for your interest and for all the support we have among AAAC members.

Best wishes,
Paul


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Happy New Year, Everyone --
> 
> The only sewing change that we made was several months ago when we went back to the thicker thread diameter that we had used in years gone by (before 2007). We wanted to have the thread fill the groove in the sole more than with thinner thread, and we liked the vintage look of the thicker thread on both sides of the welt. The thinner thread was just as strong, but we like the thicker thread look better -- it's true to our heritage and our work over all but a few of the 90 years we've now been in the shoemaking business.


I wonder if this could account for the difference seen by Mr. Mateorico?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Thanks, Paul. You're the best.
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Mike (proud owner of 20 pairs of AE shoes.)


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> We also are making some boat shoes in the DR, in order to be competitive in that genre (we have some new baseball-themed boat shoes coming out in a couple months, watch for those if you're a fan -- they're pretty cool).


Hi Paul,

I hope you're still monitoring this thread, and if so, that you could let us know if the upcoming season's selection of the boat shoes will contain any in team colors? I realize some teams have some garish color combinations and wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing as boat shoes to anyone but some Sperry completist. Yet, your nubuck version with team logo embossment is so low-profile as being baseball-themed that it seems like a regular boat shoe from afar. The other two-tone blue/white you had was great for the Yankees and other teams that share those colors, but I wonder if there are any other color combinations that are not so stomach-churning to be worth producing.


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## the shoe guy (Dec 7, 2011)

I have been servicing AE's for years, and a few years ago we were seeing bad welt sewing in many of their shoes when we would remove the sole. Now I'm seeing that this problem has been fixed. Keep up the good work and keep making a fine shoe.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

^^ Cardinal red perhaps?


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## mateorico (Dec 24, 2011)

I want to thank Paul, the CEO of AE for answering my question. I just purchased a pair of burgundy shell cordovan Cambridges today, before reading his post. Black shell Strands are next on my list. Thanks for making a quality product, and sorry to cast any dispersions against your product. I have always thought that they were the best quality shoes for the money. I was concerned with the ramping up of production for the Asian market quality would decline. Glad to hear I was wrong. 
-Mateo


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I think you meant "cast any _aspersions_".


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## meister (Oct 29, 2005)

Jovan said:


> I think you meant "cast any _aspersions_".


No it is "cast any nasturtiums" LOL.


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## Kondi (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm only on my first two pairs of AE shoes. Tried to buy a pair of first quality Macneils. With a months notice nothing was available in my size so I went with a pair of factory seconds. Which I'm happy very with. The factory first quality Waldens I got had such noticeable cosmetic defect that they are going back. They did not look anything like the quality of the pair pictured on the AE website. Big wrinkles on the top of the toe on one shoe while the other looked fine.


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