# Ethnic Clothing



## Quetzal (Jul 25, 2014)

Although it is very true that the United States and most of the world "escaped" the clutches of Europe (though obviously not alone; even the U.S. was a Third-World Country once upon a time, but that's for the Interchange), Europe, but mostly, if not all, of England, won the sartorial war (clothes that we wear), and still continues to dominate the sartorial world to this day.

However, some countries have created their own adaptations of Western clothing, such as ethnic neckties (South American, primarily Peru, used to make some "motif" or late 1950s-styled ties up until the 1980s; the heyday of Latin American dress was from the 1950s to the 1980s, with narrow ties and clasps made of silver with ethnic stampings, two-button coats, narrow-brim hats, and pure simplicity, but still very sharp in that clean, sleek, 1960s style, even up until the very sartorial end), sweaters (actual sweaters from Ireland and Scotland, and, once again, Peru), shoes, shirts, kilts (obviously) and perhaps some other garments that I am unaware of.

Does anyone have any ethnic clothing that they own and proudly wear?

-Quetzal


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. If you mean "ethnic" fabrics I've got a wonderful batik sportscoat, quite a bit of tartan, and more Harris tweed than I'd care to admit. If you mean actual articles of clothing with cultural meaning, well, I have my seersucker suit and a couple nice silk print bow ties with Southern scenes or motifs on them. I've also got my scarlet hunt coat which could, arguably, be considered "ethnic" for a given value. Other than that, the only thing I can think of were these ridiculous Russian fur hats my grandmother used to love to wear. Keep in mind she's wearing these things in South Georgia, where we rarely even get a morning frost.


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## Quetzal (Jul 25, 2014)

Reuben said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. If you mean "ethnic" fabrics I've got a wonderful batik sportscoat, quite a bit of tartan, and more Harris tweed than I'd care to admit. If you mean actual articles of clothing with cultural meaning, well, I have my seersucker suit and a couple nice silk print bow ties with Southern scenes or motifs on them. I've also got my scarlet hunt coat which could, arguably, be considered "ethnic" for a given value. Other than that, the only thing I can think of were these ridiculous Russian fur hats my grandmother used to love to wear. Keep in mind she's wearing these things in South Georgia, where we rarely even get a morning frost.


Sure, just basically anything that could be considered Ethnic. Since you're including American garments, I guess all of my Rayons with Prints could count (to me, an American tie is loud and wide, to show the world our tastefully vulgar and bold attitude; sadly, that American no longer exists on average).

Oh man, how could those fur caps even be ALLOWED in your part of the country? Your poor Grandmother couldn't survive Wisconsin, let alone Russia.

-Quetzal


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Well, she actually bought them in Russia and brought them back . . .


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I have a fair number of aloha shirts. I'd call that pretty ethnic though they're almost standard semi-dress wear on the Left Coast.


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## sethblack (Sep 17, 2013)

Well I have several pieces of Batik clothing that you could probably call "ethnic". Two Javanese batik silk shirts (one gold, one brown-gray) that I sometimes wear to formal events. They're quite nice, kind of similar to what Nelson Mandela often wore. 
And also some cotton batik sports shirts with colorful patterns that kind of look like aloha shirts.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

My dashiki is at the cleaners...


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

No, but I am guilty of playing ethnicky jazz to parade my snazz (on my 5 grand stereo).


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I occasionally wear all of the following:
Irish jumper
Scottish jumper
Kilt
Nordic jumper

But the thread title is incorrect misleading. Clothing from different countries would have been a better title. The term ethnic can NEVER apply to objects. Clothing does not possess ethnicity.


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

When I was a child I had one of these sweaters. A relative purchased one for me when I was an adult, however I didn't really end up wearing it.

There were also some of these in my household, although they come from two countries over:
https://www.route62.se/bilder/artiklar/zoom/11678_1.jpg


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Shaver said:


> No, but I am guilty of playing ethnicky jazz to parade my snazz (on my 5 grand stereo).


Fo shizzle ma nizzle!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

As Oldsarge mentioned, I've a couple of Hawaiian shirts hanging in the closet and two Barong shirts from the Philippines. Not sure if it's considered ethnic, but I picked up a 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics commemorative Norwegian sweater, by Dale of Norway. Would a Panama Hat count? In any event, they all get worn, with varying degrees of frequency! :icon_scratch:


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Quetzal said:


> Although it is very true that the United States and most of the world "escaped" the clutches of Europe (though obviously not alone; even the U.S. was a Third-World Country once upon a time, but that's for the Interchange).
> 
> -Quetzal


It is indeed, perhaps a kind moderator will move my response there, if necessary.
However, that you believe that the US "escaped" Europe (whatever that means) is curious. I would suggest that the dominant culture and that the dominant ethnicity of the US is European. The majority of the population of the US, for example, would appear to be of European descent. The dominant languages of the US are European as is the political structure; essentially that of Montesquiou. This would suggest that US is an extension of Europe, as is Canada and Central and South America. A continent that is populated by Europeans, speaking European languages, with European political and social culture has hardly "escaped" Europe. The immigrants to the US brought Europe with them!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Quetzal said:


> Sure, just basically anything that could be considered Ethnic. Since you're including American garments, I guess all of my Rayons with Prints could count (to me, an American tie is loud and wide, to show the world our tastefully vulgar and bold attitude; sadly, that American no longer exists on average).


I for one, am celebrating Indigenous Peoples Day by wearing a top hat and a bone in my nose.


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## EclecticSr. (Sep 21, 2014)

Because in America on this day we are observing a holiday in recognition of a European, I will will be wearing something reflective of his ethnicity, a finely tailored "made in Italy" article of clothing.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I for one, am celebrating Indigenous Peoples Day by wearing a top hat and a bone in my nose.


:icon_pale:

Tickets please! All aboard for the Interchange.


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## 69firebird (Jul 28, 2014)

Havana shirts, cowboy boots and the UT shirts is about as 'ethnic' as I get.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Grayson said:


> Exhibit A...


My God! What _*do*_ they think they look like! This is as a joke. Isn't it?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Really? I had heard of people dressing like that on occasion, sometimes even in Scotland. Soldiers do it sometimes, and take it seriously, but that's their regimental tradition. May I ask where you were when you, I'm assuming that it's you in the middle, were dressed up like that? Just curious.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Shaver said:


> :icon_pale:
> 
> Tickets please! All aboard for the Interchange.


You prefer a kilt and a motorcycle jacket??


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## filbert_turtle (Apr 5, 2014)

I wear guayaberas regularly. I also consider my tweed jackets with patches and "bean boots" to be decidedly part of my new, New English dress. Not sure the difference between ethnic and regional garments, if any, but I regard them interchangably.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Curried saffron neckties, and a blackened dinner jacket.


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## Quetzal (Jul 25, 2014)

Chouan said:


> It is indeed, perhaps a kind moderator will move my response there, if necessary.
> However, that you believe that the US "escaped" Europe (whatever that means) is curious. I would suggest that the dominant culture and that the dominant ethnicity of the US is European. The majority of the population of the US, for example, would appear to be of European descent. The dominant languages of the US are European as is the political structure; essentially that of Montesquiou. This would suggest that US is an extension of Europe, as is Canada and Central and South America. A continent that is populated by Europeans, speaking European languages, with European political and social culture has hardly "escaped" Europe. The immigrants to the US brought Europe with them!


This is why I said "escaped the clutches". Although the U.S., Latin America, Asia, and Africa are no longer territories of Europe, they still, to this day, maintain practically every form of European Influence, as you have stated.

-Quetzal


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Oldsarge said:


> I have a fair number of aloha shirts. I'd call that pretty ethnic though they're almost standard semi-dress wear on the Left Coast.


Not for me! I loathe aloha shirts and guyaberas, for that matter...in fact, any non-tucking shirt. But that's just me.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Grayson said:


> I am Scottish, and yest we do dress this way at Highland Games, St Andrews Day festivals, and the like.


Our family continues to wear highlands dress to Burns dinners and such despite being longstanding residents of the New World. Fortunately our clan tartan is one of the few original tartans not the creation of a 19th century fraudster and we can thus look down our Celtic noses at our fake fop fellow celebrants :teacha: .


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Grayson said:


> I am Scottish, and yest we do dress this way at Highland Games, St Andrews Day festivals, and the like. For black tie events I've also often worn the "Prince Charlie" kilt rig. This thread DOES pose the question "*Does anyone have any ethnic clothing that they own and proudly wear?*".
> 
> I'm standing down now. I'm starting to feel that further defense would be akin to sending another billy goat across the bridge.


That last remark rather suggests that you feel yourself to be subject to trolling; you're not, not by me at least, although I can't speak for anybody else. Just because you don't like what is being written doesn't mean that trolling is occurring.

What you're wearing isn't ethnic wear, it is a parody of the ethnic clothing of a small group of people, a minority, of Scots. Although adopted as Scots "National Dress", it isn't ethnically connected to the majority of Scots, even if it were in authentic Highland style, which neither you nor your associates were wearing. It would be like an American wearing a theatrical costumier's version of Cheyenne clothing in the belief that they were wearing ethnic American dress, and a form of American "National Dress", even though it has nothing to do with the ethnic or cultural background of those wearing it.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Quetzal said:


> This is why I said "escaped the clutches". Although the U.S., Latin America, Asia, and Africa are no longer territories of Europe, they still, to this day, maintain practically every form of European Influence, as you have stated.
> 
> -Quetzal


This still doesn't make sense. How could the US have "escaped the clutches" of Europe if US culture is European? That Europeans in the Americas were able to make themselves politically independent of the countries from which they came doesn't make them any less European. What "clutches" did they escape from? When Marseilles was set up as a colony of Corinth, it remained as Greek as Corinth was even though it was politically independent.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Chouan said:


> That last remark rather suggests that you feel yourself to be subject to trolling; you're not, not by me at least, although I can't speak for anybody else. Just because you don't like what is being written doesn't mean that trolling is occurring.
> 
> What you're wearing isn't ethnic wear, it is a parody of the ethnic clothing of a small group of people, a minority, of Scots. Although adopted as Scots "National Dress", it isn't ethnically connected to the majority of Scots, even if it were in authentic Highland style, which neither you nor your associates were wearing. It would be like an American wearing a theatrical costumier's version of Cheyenne clothing in the belief that they were wearing ethnic American dress.


I am obliged to concur with Chouan.

The vast majority of my (living) relatives are authentic Highland Scots, fiercely proud of their culture and heritage, and given to the wearing of full Highland dress at weddings, funerals and the whatnot.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Chouan said:


> This still doesn't make sense. How could the US have "escaped the clutches" of Europe if US culture is European? That Europeans in the Americas were able to make themselves politically independent of the countries from which they came doesn't make them any less European. What "clutches" did they escape from?


Thomas Jefferson wrote them down.



> He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
> He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
> He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
> He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
> ...


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Thomas Jefferson wrote them down.


Oh that old thing. Declaring one's self independent of a monarch is hardly "escaping the clutches" of Europe especially when the people declaring their independence were Europeans! One of the things that your man was going on about was the crown "_abolishing the free System of English Laws"! _It doesn't appear to me to be a rejection of either Europe, or European, or indeed English, political culture! "_depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury_" Trial by jury, is, of course, the basis of English criminal law. I know that you people value what you perceive as your difference from Europeans, but quoting a politician's (any politician's) manifesto, full of exaggerations half-truths and outright lies, doesn't really prove anything!


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Does madras count as ethnic?

I can't think of many examples of Americans wearing the traditional sartorial styles of wherever their ancestors came from...some blacks favor African styles, but that's rare, and often what they wear is more "imagined Africa" than real, and in DC there are plenty of actual East Africans who tend to dress the part on Sundays when they go to Church, but that seems to be their version of their Sunday best, and I wonder if it will survive the next generation. South Asians don saris from time to time, but I suspect those will similarly be relegated to special occasions, like weddings. Other than that, I can only think of those Jews who have made wearing circa 1910s and 1920s Eastern European village garb a tool for maintaining communal cohesion, and the Amish--but is that ethnic or simply very dated? Do they wear anything that is specific to their pre-immigration homeland, Western Germany (Alsace and Baden, I think)?. 

Speaking of the Amish, I spent a lot of time in Central Pennsylvania recently and was fascinated to see boys wearing what I can only describe as a uni-suspender: There's one button on the front of the pants, one on the back, and the single suspender strap is worn over one shoulder. Their pants are course denim with lots of buttons. I was hoping I'd find that they wore shoes they made themselves in the hope of finding that perhaps traditional shoe-making crafts survived among them. Alas, they go barefoot or wear cheap shoes that must fit certain aesthetic criteria. Namely, they are black and plain and deliberately unremarkable.

Oh, and their clothes were all patched, multiple times. Frugality clearly is a virtue they emphasize. It's sort of sad that patches stand out as unusual. Most of us just buy new stuff.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Chouan said:


> Oh that old thing. Declaring one's self independent of a monarch is hardly "escaping the clutches" of Europe especially when the people declaring their independence were Europeans! One of the things that your man was going on about was the crown "_abolishing the free System of English Laws"! _It doesn't appear to me to be a rejection of either Europe, or European, or indeed English, political culture! "_depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury_" Trial by jury, is, of course, the basis of English criminal law. I know that you people value what you perceive as your difference from Europeans, but quoting a politician's (any politician's) manifesto, full of exaggerations half-truths and outright lies, doesn't really prove anything!


You asked for escaped from what clutches,

I gave you escaped from what clutches.

Case closed.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> Does madras count as ethnic?
> 
> I can't think of many examples of Americans wearing the traditional sartorial styles of wherever their ancestors came from...


Outside of Festivals and Parades, neither can I.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> You asked for escaped from what clutches,
> 
> I gave you escaped from what clutches.
> 
> Case closed.


Did you? I must have missed it. I did see that you'd posted a politician's excuses and justifications for rebellion, by appealing to England's Bill of Rights, among other things, but that didn't explain anything about how Europeans "escaped the clutches of Europe". As far as I can see, the Europeans of N.America exchanged one plutocracy for another, a political system based on wealth and status for a political system based on wealth and status.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Chouan said:


> Did you? I must have missed it. I did see that you'd posted a politician's excuses and justifications for rebellion, by appealing to England's Bill of Rights, among other things, but that didn't explain anything about how Europeans "escaped the clutches of Europe". As far as I can see, the Europeans of N.America exchanged one plutocracy for another, a political system based on wealth and status for a political system based on wealth and status.


Tweet! (That's my mod whistle). Y'all know where to take this fight...


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Chouan said:


> Did you? I must have missed it. I did see that you'd posted a politician's excuses and justifications for rebellion, by appealing to England's Bill of Rights, among other things, but that didn't explain anything about how Europeans "escaped the clutches of Europe". As far as I can see, the Europeans of N.America exchanged one plutocracy for another, a political system based on wealth and status for a political system based on wealth and status.


If all political systems based on wealth and status were equal, you may have a point.

They aren't.

So you don't.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> Tweet! (That's my mod whistle). Y'all know where to take this fight...


Oops!!

He started it!!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> Tweet! (That's my mod whistle). Y'all know where to take this fight...


The opening sentence, surely, established where the thread would go?
_"__Although it is very true that the United States and most of the world "escaped" the clutches of Europe (though obviously not alone; even the U.S. was a Third-World Country once upon a time, but that's for the Interchange), Europe, but mostly, if not all, of England, won the sartorial war (clothes that we wear), and still continues to dominate the sartorial world to this day."_
A political assertion to start off the thread!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> If all political systems based on wealth and status were equal, you may have a point.
> 
> They aren't.
> 
> So you don't.


And the references to English Law? the indirect references to the Bill of Rights? the indirect references to Magna Carta?

Yes, I know, but I can't stop......


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Chouan said:


> And the references to English Law? the indirect references to the Bill of Rights? the indirect references to Magna Carta?
> 
> Yes, I know, but I can't stop......


Shhhhhh! :rolleyes2:


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Shhhhhh! :rolleyes2:


It's alright, I think I got away with it ........


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Constructive and tempered moderation*

Gentlemen,
I believe this thread has gotten seriously sidetracked. It is about clothing. Specifically the ethnic origins, if any, of present-day fashions. It isn't a political discussion.

For example, the origin of many western (cowboy) clothing items is in the clothing worn by early Spanish cattlemen/vaqueros. The ethnic origin of "western wear" is Iberian.

A political discussion of Mexico, Spain and the United States, and the change of ownership of that part of the country where western wear is actually worn has nothing to do with the ethnic origins of the kit. To conflate politics and history with clothing styles muddles the discussion and sucks people into pointless arguments.

Based on the research I am currently conducting in Central Europe, there is ample support for the that the Levi's style jean trouser is a pan Euro-American standard item of male attire. And, what is the ethnic origin of this item of clothing? Historically it was work wear developed in the industrial mining activity of the west. As well, such pants were worn by the workers in the cattle industry. Was it the tight-fitting trowsers of the vaqueros, or the heavy pants developed in the latter part of the 19th Century in connection with industrialized mining?

Regards,
Gurdon


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## HamilcarBarca (Dec 9, 2012)

When I visit my country Mexico I never see any ethnic clothing. Most just dress like the Americans do. I do not own any ethnic clothing that I know of, except maybe for one straw hat. Everything else is pretty Anglo.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Gurdon said:


> Gentlemen,
> I believe this thread has gotten seriously sidetracked. It is about clothing. Specifically the ethnic origins, if any, of present-day fashions. It isn't a political discussion.
> 
> For example, the origin of many western (cowboy) clothing items is in the clothing worn by early Spanish cattlemen/vaqueros. The ethnic origin of "western wear" is Iberian.
> ...


If this thread were only about clothing, what about the political assertions that started the thread? If one brings politics into a thread from the outset, in the very first line, in fact, then surely political comments can't be excluded? Perhaps, as the thread starter suggested, in jest, the thread should have immediately been moved to the Interchange? Otherwise people could make outrageous political remarks and have them unchallenged, as long as the rest of the post was about clothes.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

You, sir, clearly do not understand American exceptionalism!



Chouan said:


> This still doesn't make sense. How could the US have "escaped the clutches" of Europe if US culture is European? That Europeans in the Americas were able to make themselves politically independent of the countries from which they came doesn't make them any less European. What "clutches" did they escape from? When Marseilles was set up as a colony of Corinth, it remained as Greek as Corinth was even though it was politically independent.


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## Quetzal (Jul 25, 2014)

O.K., the "escaped the clutches" just was a quick joke that I expected every non-European citizen to understand, which is elaborated in WouldShoulda's post (maybe I may have missed something, but I think that every country that was once owned by Europe wanted independence and freedom, so I've heard, hence they wanted to "escape their clutches", but in reality just adopted their way of life with a new name). The average person is ignorant of how the world is still very European based, even though Europe is not as powerful compared to the days before WWII. If anyone, and I KNOW that some of you have been offended and possibly instigated and confused, then it can be discussed in The Interchange.

Back to the original purpose of the thread, what else do people have, possibly with pictures?

-Quetzal


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

At this point, I will check in a couple of hours. A moderator has already asked that the political stuff move to PM or the Interchange. I will close the thread myself if I see a problem the next time I'm here.

There are rules against politics in the fashion forum. At this point, EVERYONE needs to observe them.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

^^^
Which is why I've appeared to bring this back to the exciting topic of ethnic clothing.

I often wear clothing known only to the natives of the island of Mauritius, even tho I'm not sure where that is or how to pronounce it. I imagine it to be mostly uninhabited, but with a shirt factory the size of O'Hare. Natives from the mainland swim over each day and produce approximately two-million shirts in any 24-hour period. Fun Fact: from the Mauritians is where we got the idea for the OCBD. That's gotta be true because the Maury I'm wearing right now looks just like one. I love ethnic stuff.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

^Those "natives" must be some prodigious swimmers since Mauritius is some 1,200 miles from the nearest mainland! Seriously, I believe most of the shirt manufacturing is done by imported workers from sundry Asian countries. My only experience with made-in-Mauritius shirts has been with Costco button-downs, but excellent values they were. It was a sad day when Costco switched to the no-iron made-in-China stuff they currently carry. I would not defile the temple of my body with the latter.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

Does Morning Dress count as ethnically English?  Otherwise... I have an Ireland scarf...


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Peak and Pine said:


> ^^^
> Which is why I've appeared to bring this back to the exciting topic of ethnic clothing.
> 
> I often wear clothing known only to the natives of the island of Mauritius, even tho I'm not sure where that is or how to pronounce it. I imagine it to be mostly uninhabited, but with a shirt factory the size of O'Hare. Natives from the mainland swim over each day and produce approximately two-million shirts in any 24-hour period. Fun Fact: from the Mauritians is where we got the idea for the OCBD. That's gotta be true because the Maury I'm wearing right now looks just like one. I love ethnic stuff.


Port Louis was my first port of call on my first trip to sea. A beautiful island in the mid Indian Ocean with a delightful climate, beautiful beaches, with spectacular mountains including "Le Pouce"








and, my favourite, "Pieter Both", which I will show on a subsequent post, as I seem to only be able to show one picture at a time here.

When I first visited the Botanical Gardens there was, still living, a giant tortoise that was reputed to have a scar on its back caused by a cannonball in 1809, during the Napoleonic Wars.
There is no "native" population; all of the inhabitants are immigrants from Africa, China, the Malay Archipelago or the Indian sub-continent. French and English are the usual languages spoken, the island being under French control until taken by the UK in 1809. Again, French and English cultures are dominant amongst the creoles, whilst the other ethnic groups follow their own cultures.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Quetzal said:


> O.K., the "escaped the clutches" just was a quick joke that I expected every non-European citizen to understand, which is elaborated in WouldShoulda's post (maybe I may have missed something, but I think that every country that was once owned by Europe wanted independence and freedom, so I've heard, hence they wanted to "escape their clutches", but in reality just adopted their way of life with a new name). The average person is ignorant of how the world is still very European based, even though Europe is not as powerful compared to the days before WWII. If anyone, and I KNOW that some of you have been offended and possibly instigated and confused, then it can be discussed in The Interchange.
> 
> Back to the original purpose of the thread, what else do people have, possibly with pictures?
> 
> -Quetzal


What, to you, was a "quick joke" came across as the kind of smartar$e, arrogant, chauvinistic, characteristically inaccurate and insensitive remark that some Americans are only too prone to make. As you started your thread with a political assertion, whether or not you thought it funny, you should, therefore expect to provoke a political response. That you are surprised by the response shows your insensitivity and ignorance of other people's views.

Dear moderators. Could I ask that the thread be somehow split so that the political side to this thread can be pursued whilst people can still follow the clothing aspect on this forum?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Pieter Both


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Chouan said:


> What, to you, was a "quick joke" came across as the kind of smartar$e, arrogant, chauvinistic, characteristically inaccurate and insensitive remark that some Americans are only too prone to make. As you started your thread with a political assertion, whether or not you thought it funny, you should, therefore expect to provoke a political response. That you are surprised by the response shows your insensitivity and ignorance of other people's views.
> 
> Dear moderators. Could I ask that the thread be somehow split so that the political side to this thread can be pursued whilst people can still follow the clothing aspect on this forum?


That's rich.

Now it's all about Chouan's views, his arrogance, what he thinks is important and if you don't like it you must be insensitive and ignorant!!

HA!!


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## Grayson (Feb 29, 2008)

^^^ I'm thinking we have a Mycroft for Shaver's Sherlock.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Grayson said:


> ^^^ I'm thinking we have a Mycroft for Shaver's Sherlock.


Please, let's leave my poor old Sherlock out of this.


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## niv (Sep 15, 2012)

It is a fact that many (or most) Americans or their ancestors fled their homes in Europe because the conditions at the time and locations of those homes were miserable for them. My grandparents who emigrated from Europe would have agreed with the original statement. Doesn't mean that conditions aren't much better currently at those same locations. This is hardly a controversial statement.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> That's rich.
> 
> Now it's all about Chouan's views, his arrogance, what he thinks is important and if you don't like it you must be insensitive and ignorant!!
> 
> HA!!


I'm afraid, that's always been the way with him. Anyone who thinks history is a minute subject, which only concerns the national deeds of politicians, and only to be learned from certain approved books cannot be taken seriously.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

blairrob said:


> Our family continues to wear highlands dress to Burns dinners and such despite being longstanding residents of the New World. Fortunately our clan tartan is one of the few original tartans not the creation of a 19th century fraudster and we can thus look down our Celtic noses at our fake fop fellow celebrants :teacha: .


I just had a jacket made from the Fermanagh district tartan. This is obviously a later creation, but that's actually quite appropriate for that branch of my family. If they'd been important enough landowners to have their own clan tartan, they never would have let themselves get tossed out of Scotland four centuries ago. And never would have left Ulster for the United States two centuries after that.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm putting this in tiny type, hoping that Forsberg doesn't see it and bounce me to the interchange or worse, right t'hell outa here, but I kinda like Chouan's take on all this. And I'm an American, not always a proud one tho.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Concordia said:


> If they'd been important enough landowners to have their own clan tartan, they never would have let themselves get tossed out of Scotland four centuries ago. And never would have left Ulster for the United States two centuries after that.


Fascinating.

One might say they "escaped" the clutches of the class-obsessed culture that existed there at the time.

Would you say so or would that be a testament to our own ignorance and insensitivity??


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

niv said:


> It is a fact that many (or most) Americans or their ancestors fled their homes in Europe because the conditions at the time and locations of those homes were miserable for them. My grandparents who emigrated from Europe would have agreed with the original statement. Doesn't mean that conditions aren't much better currently at those same locations. This is hardly a controversial statement.


You think that Southern Italy, or Germany, or Poland, or Ireland, or Russia, Finland, Sweden or Norway haven't improved over the last 50-100 years?


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## niv (Sep 15, 2012)

Of course not which is why I said:_Doesn't mean that conditions aren't much better currently at those same locations._


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Concordia said:


> I just had a jacket made from the Fermanagh district tartan. This is obviously a later creation, but that's actually quite appropriate for that branch of my family. If they'd been important enough landowners to have their own clan tartan, they never would have let themselves get tossed out of Scotland four centuries ago. And never would have left Ulster for the United States two centuries after that.


You have a curious view of History. They were "tossed out of Scotland" in the 17th Century? By whom?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

niv said:


> Of course not which is why I said:_Doesn't mean that conditions aren't much better currently at those same locations._


Sorry, I misread your post.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

One more snide, insulting comment _from anyone_ and I'll close this thread! Understand?


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Moderation*

I was looking forward in a discussion of what ethnic clothing might mean in today's world. It would have been more interesting than what we wound up with.

It is disappointing and annoying that we can't seem to have civilized discussions without having them degenerate into political diatribes. Some participants seem to relish the opportunity to use a thread to push their political or ideological views. Others cannot seem to resist the urge to pick up the argument. I know how tempting it is to jump in in situations like this.

There are political dimensions to clothing styles. If we can't discuss them without sticking to fashion I will join the other moderators in shutting down the rants and sanctioning the offenders.

If you want to argue about the politics of clothing take it to the interchange or PM the person whose post got your attention.

Gurdon


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Have any of our beloved moderators not issued a warning in this thread or do we now have a 'full house'? 

Here's an 'ethnic' item we all wear - it dates back to the Roman era and in its modern form is attributed to Croatia- gentlemen I give you: the neck-tie.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I had heard that the tie dated to 17th century france.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> I had heard that the tie dated to 17th century france.


Demand decreased dramatically however, in late 18th century France!!


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Concordia said:


> I just had a jacket made from the Fermanagh district tartan. This is obviously a later creation, but that's actually quite appropriate for that branch of my family. If they'd been important enough landowners to have their own clan tartan, they never would have let themselves get tossed out of Scotland four centuries ago. And never would have left Ulster for the United States two centuries after that.


Um, I sort of thought the types that migrated from Scotland into Ulster were staunchly Calvinistic Lowlanders, not the sort that would have "clan tartans." Had they been Catholic Highlanders, Ireland would almost certainly be united today. In any event, the whole business of "clan tartans" was a 19th century invention, as I believe has been discussed here from time to time.

None of my mother's family immigrated to the USA. They were already here for the Revolution and took eager part in that. Nor did they come here to get religious freedom or escape other forms of oppression, they came to "grab land and make money," as my uncle used to proudly say. However, some of my mother's ancestors had already arrived earlier, by about 10,000 years, most probably via the Bering Strait.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> I had heard that the tie dated to 17th century france.


Cravatte was the 17th century French expression for a Croat. They adopted the Croatian decorative neck cloth and called it a cravatte.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

tocqueville said:


> I had heard that the tie dated to 17th century france.


Correct, but the French picked it up from the Croatian soldiers in France at the time.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

JLibourel said:


> Um, I sort of thought the types that migrated from Scotland into Ulster were staunchly Calvinistic Lowlanders, not the sort that would have "clan tartans." Had they been Catholic Highlanders, Ireland would almost certainly be united today. In any event, the whole business of "clan tartans" was a 19th century invention, as I believe has been discussed here from time to time.


They were indeed. One of the requirements of the Plantation was that the Planters, or Undertakers, as they were called, were only to rent or lease land to Prods. The Undertakers tended to be Scots, from the Lowlands, as you suggest, and they tended to bring a number of fellow Scots Lowlanders with them as tenants. They wouldn't have worn tartan or kilts under any circumstances.
Many of the "Catholic Irish" inhabitants in Ulster were already closely related to the Highland Scots; most of the Gallowglas class of professional mercenary warriors in Ireland, usually with "Mac" names, were either Highlanders or Islanders or their descendants. James I wouldn't have wanted any more of them to settle in Ulster, as the point of the plantation was to flood the country with Prods to undermine the Catholic Irish in the province.



JLibourel said:


> None of my mother's family immigrated to the USA. They were already here for the Revolution and took eager part in that. Nor did they come here to get religious freedom or escape other forms of oppression, they came to "grab land and make money," as my uncle used to proudly say. However, some of my mother's ancestors had already arrived earlier, by about 10,000 years, most probably via the Bering Strait.


Some refreshing honesty!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

JLibourel said:


> None of my mother's family immigrated to the USA. They were already here for the Revolution and took eager part in that. Nor did they come here to get religious freedom or escape other forms of oppression, they came to "grab land and make money," as my uncle used to proudly say.


Fascinating.

One might say they "escaped" the clutches of a landed gentry that resisted their success in the Old Country.


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