# Recycling



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I hate it. I think that it is monstrously stupid and does more harm to the environment than good. I suspect that more energy is expended, and thus more pollution created, by recycling than by simply landfilling stuff and starting afresh. I want to be able to demonstrate this to my significant other, a fine lass who has been brainwashed by the recycling crowd that has brainwashed the rest of the neighborhood and created so much peer pressure that everyone is now doing it. I want my Christmas gift this year to be a year-long moratorium on recycling, and I want to be able to make Mrs. 32 feel like she's not trashing the earth if we stop. I've googled a bit and found some things, but if anyone can direct me to legitimate research on this, I would be much obliged. Thanks.


----------



## CrazyLarry (Jun 17, 2014)

I live in a neighborhood that has recycling - so I recycle. However, I have often wondered what the "net savings" is to Mother Earth when you take into account the big trucks driving through my neighborhood to pick up my newspapers and tin cans.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Here in Chicago, and I'm sure in other large cities, we have had "smart garbage cans" for the past few years. They basically have two compartments. One is for bottles and cans, the other is for everything else and it is basically like a mini trash compactor. 

The bottles/can section is basically open so one can just throw refuse in, but the compactor portion has a handle that one must manually manipulate to open. I'll be damned if I'm going to touch those filthy things so guess where all of my trash goes. 

I hate to do it but I value my hygiene a bit more than that.


----------



## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

32rollandrock said:


> I hate it. I think that it is monstrously stupid and does more harm to the environment than good. I suspect that more energy is expended, and thus more pollution created, by recycling than by simply landfilling stuff and starting afresh. I want to be able to demonstrate this to my significant other, a fine lass who has been brainwashed by the recycling crowd that has brainwashed the rest of the neighborhood and created so much peer pressure that everyone is now doing it. I want my Christmas gift this year to be a year-long moratorium on recycling, and I want to be able to make Mrs. 32 feel like she's not trashing the earth if we stop. I've googled a bit and found some things, but if anyone can direct me to legitimate research on this, I would be much obliged. Thanks.


I suspect you're right about more energy being expended on it than a hard-headed appraisal could justify. In the EU, rather unfortunately, we have no choice in the matter, there can never be a moratorium of the type you desire. Unless local authorities meet quite strict standards of recycling, they are fined, and they make sure these standards are met by imposing very tight controls on how waste is collected - separate bins for plastic, separate bins for glass, paper etc etc.

In principle, however, some things are thrown out that could be reused - glass bottles, for instance, which at one time had a deposit, repaid when the bottle was returned to be reused. Now, the glass is simply crushed and melted down again, which seems a waste.

I try to do my bit for the environment by buying expensive things and keeping them forever. :thumbs-up:


----------



## CrazyLarry (Jun 17, 2014)

SG_67 said:


> Here in Chicago, and I'm sure in other large cities, we have had "smart garbage cans" for the past few years. They basically have two compartments. One is for bottles and cans, the other is for everything else and it is basically like a mini trash compactor.


Having your garbage truck also pick up your recycling would change the "net savings" equation for recycling (setting your hygiene issue aside). Where I live the recycling trucks and the garbage trucks are two different fleets that come on different days. If you are having to maintain two different fleets of trucks, I just don't see how you come out ahead with the recycling equation.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

It's optional here, mandatory where my folks live. And it is completely stupid, at least it is the way that it is done here, where no fewer than four garbage companies do business in a city of less than 120,000, which means that every week eight--eight--trucks go up and down my street, one from each company to collect garbage and another from each company to collect recyclables. That alone makes it stupid from an environmental point of view, not to mention a wear-and-tear on the streets perspective. What I'm looking for, though, is some reputable study/article on whether it makes sense from an environmental point of view even if it is done as efficiently as possible. During the 1990s, I attended a seminar on solid waste and heard presentations by experts--and not from garbage companies--who persuasively argued that there is plenty of space for landfills in the United States and so recycling is just a feel-good way to make people think they're being green and saving the earth. Unfortunately, that was a long time ago and I have no materials from the event, or means to track down the presenters. From a selfish perspective, I object to the flies that the recycling bin draws, especially during summer months. There's no way to get the cans and other stuff completely clean.

Alternatively, if anyone knows of a cheap GPS unit that I could put in the recycling bin so that I could know where the stuff is actually going, that would be a huge plus. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was actually being landfilled.


----------



## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

*Alternatively, if anyone knows of a cheap GPS unit that I could put in the recycling bin so that I could know where the stuff is actually going, that would be a huge plus. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was actually being landfilled.

*Now thats funny.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Hitch said:


> *Alternatively, if anyone knows of a cheap GPS unit that I could put in the recycling bin so that I could know where the stuff is actually going, that would be a huge plus. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was actually being landfilled.
> 
> *Now thats funny.


I am absolutely dead serious.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

https://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=47701


----------



## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

You could start by contacting your city's Public Works department:

Call 217-789-2255 or email [email protected]

You could contact your local hauler for a ride-along to see exactly where your waste goes.

If you want the short answer, recycling does more good than harm. Without looking at all the specific current rates of efficiency, the recycling of aluminum alone outweighs any losses from inefficient recovery and reuse of other commodities.

A specific answer is so difficult to obtain because some recycling systems are more efficient than others; you really need to look at the efficiency of individual commodities. All the different materials that are diverted from the traditional solid waste stream have their own industry organizations which would have the current data on rates of efficiency for their specific commodity.

To get a better answer, do the research on individual materials, eg. glass, aluminum, paper, various plastics, etc... and then add them all up.

Even coming up with a comprehensive list of commodities is difficult; materials like concrete, lumber, old toilets, etc, are also "recycled" - better term would be re-purposed - so you have to account for energy saved in not mining for materials and producing the virgin products; on the flip side, stuff like glass cullet is sometimes used instead of sand in landfills as required drainage layers between layers of solid waste, or on top before being covered with soil and grass.

Very complex issue, but the simple answer is to admit to Mrs. 32 that she is right.

I'll throw you a bone though: Quit wasting water rinsing stuff out - that's a bunch of BS.


----------



## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> ... eight--eight--trucks go up and down my street, one from each company to collect garbage and another from each company to collect recyclables. That alone makes it stupid from an environmental point of view ...


I agree this system is stupid, but recycling isn't the reason. No reason to have more than two trucks doing these jobs, one each for trash and recycling.

All else being equal, recycling of glass, metal and most plastics makes both economic and environmental sense. Post-consumer paper recycling makes little sense either way.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

sbdivemaster said:


> You could start by contacting your city's Public Works department:
> 
> Call 217-789-2255 or email [email protected]
> 
> ...


Thank you, you have just proven my point. If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying that it makes sense for some things and not for others. I have nothing against recycling aluminum. What irks me are bins filled with milk jugs and Alpo cans and post office leavings and the like, left curbside as if the recycling fairy is going to come along and make it all better. Sorry, but I do not believe that. As for calling the public works department so they can 'splain it to me, you must not live in Illinois. That would be the last place to go to get a straight answer. Where are you getting your information? It sounds like you may be one of those sorts who subscribe to the theory that we should keep stuff out of landfills at all costs. I do not subscribe to that theory.

Surely there must be some objective academic/economic studies out there on the efficacy of recycling. Where are they? That's what I am looking for.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I am extremely environmentally friendly and follow a very low-impact lifestyle. However, recycling is rather akin to p*ssing into the wind whilst people are permitted to continue churning out an endless supply of children.

.
.
.

.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Recycling, a total waste? Considering certain aspects, perhaps so, but as touched upon by brother Shaver in the post above, the way we live our lives can have an impact. Rather than focusing on the negatives of why recycling doesn't work, why not consider what does work. In one of the far edges of our back lawn, on the edge of our woodlot, is a rather productive compost heap of which I am positively 'struck dumb' proud....a positive way of disposing of lawn clippings, fallen leaves, much of the kitchen waste we create, etc. Output from that heap enriches much of the vegetation around the 'Eagle's Crib!'  What do others do to reduce our footprint(s) on the environment?


----------



## Wolfshield (May 25, 2014)

I only recycle because my fiance and I rent on a duplex (we have a "studio apartment" on a property where the landlord lives in the main house). There are only two garbage bins and a recycling bin, so I recycle in order to reduce the stress on the garbage bins (the landlord, who also happens to be my uncle, has a family of six so a lot of waste from that household).

However, once I have my own property I will not be recycling. Many municipalities, including mine, have contracts with Asian companies who purchase the recycling and ship it over to Asia in order for it to be recycled there. So after the truck picks it up, it is put on a freight ship and shipped across the globe to be recycled at an Asian plant and then the new product is shipped back. That is not be environmentally friendly, that is just lining the pockets of Asian businessmen. No thank you.

If recyclables were recycled locally then I would be pro-recycling, but the way the current system is set up, I refuse to do so unless necessary.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Once recycled, the end product basically becomes a commodity and it makes little sense to keep it there locally. It needs to go where that commodity can then be processed and used in the product. 

I try to recycle as much as I can. If for no other reason than I don't really see it has being of any harm and it's such little effort for the potential benefit. I will admit, though, I haven't given as much thought as to some of the issues raised here regarding the drawbacks of recycling.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Shaver said:


> I am extremely environmentally friendly and follow a very low-impact lifestyle. However, recycling is rather akin to p*ssing into the wind whilst people are permitted to continue churning out an endless supply of children.
> 
> .
> .
> ...


This is it, exactly. We think that we can make up for the sins of consumerism and too much needless packaging by recycling, and that's like trying to put a round peg in a square hole. What gets me are all the "green" householders who religiously put out the recycling bin each week before getting into their SUV and driving solo to work. And then there are the eight--eight--trucks that drive up and down my street each week collecting recycling bins and garbage cans in the name of saving the earth. We would be better off in my city, environment wise, if no one recycled, which would eliminate the need for four large trucks to drive up and down every street in the city once a week. Try pointing that out and people look at you like you have two heads.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Why do you hate the trash/recycling man's children??

SHAME ON YOU!!


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)




----------



## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

We already know why you hate his children!!


----------



## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

32rollandrock said:


> Thank you, you have just proven my point. If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying that it makes sense for some things and not for others. I have nothing against recycling aluminum. What irks me are bins filled with milk jugs and Alpo cans and post office leavings and the like, left curbside as if the recycling fairy is going to come along and make it all better. Sorry, but I do not believe that. As for calling the public works department so they can 'splain it to me, you must not live in Illinois. That would be the last place to go to get a straight answer. Where are you getting your information? *It sounds like you may be one of those sorts who subscribe to the theory that we should keep stuff out of landfills at all costs.* I do not subscribe to that theory.
> 
> Surely there must be some objective academic/economic studies out there on the efficacy of recycling. Where are they? That's what I am looking for.


It sounds like you may be one of those sorts who knows nothing about me. It sounds like you may be one of those sorts who knows nothing about the world's recovery and recycling industry.

Yes, I read plenty of academic/economic studies on the efficacy of recycling during my almost five years working for a recycling company and the county solid waste division of the public works department, after getting my degree in Environmental Science. Of course, those were from the early 90's, so I doubt they're on the Internet. I told you where you can begin your research; it's not my problem if you refuse to contact the obvious starting point for your answers.

You asked about "recycling". I told you how to look for your answer about "recycling". Sorry, I haven't proven your point. In fact, your _opinion_ about "recycling" doing more harm than good is flat wrong. As stated, you do not believe that, and you've made up your mind. No one is forcing you to put that stuff in the curbside bins, so don't do it.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

sbdivemaster said:


> Yes, I read plenty of academic/economic studies on the efficacy of recycling during my almost five years working for a recycling company and the county solid waste division of the public works department, after getting my degree in Environmental Science.


I find it's always a good idea to follow the money, who benefits;

Current conditions are very different from those in 1996, or even 2004. The price of raw materials has skyrocketed in the past few years, and *concerns about energy security and global warming now weigh more heavily in the debate*. Still, the same two basic questions about recycling persist: Is it good for the environment? And does it make economic sense?

Ultimately, every community will develop its own unique program. "The bigger the city," Porter says, "the more you can recycle." The dividing line between environmental and economic factors will also begin to blur. * On the Chicago Climate Exchange, the world's first greenhouse-gas trading market, the price for a ton of avoided carbon-dioxide emissions peaked at over $7 this summer.* Morris has created a model for municipal waste decision-makers that assigns values to environmental impacts ranging from toxins to acid rain and greenhouse gases. Most telling, though, is a recent study that found that about 90 percent of the material going to landfills has a market value. Given today's economy, we won't keep burying that value for long.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/recycling/4291566

So if it saves the planet, and it's all for the children;

"What's good for Waste Management is good for America!!"


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

One of the most cost effective methods of mining platinum (and other precious metals) has become the sifting of street sweepings: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/15/the-streets-are-paved-with-gold-and-platinum/


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

sbdivemaster said:


> It sounds like you may be one of those sorts who knows nothing about me. It sounds like you may be one of those sorts who knows nothing about the world's recovery and recycling industry.
> 
> Yes, I read plenty of academic/economic studies on the efficacy of recycling during my almost five years working for a recycling company and the county solid waste division of the public works department, after getting my degree in Environmental Science. Of course, those were from the early 90's, so I doubt they're on the Internet. I told you where you can begin your research; it's not my problem if you refuse to contact the obvious starting point for your answers.
> 
> You asked about "recycling". I told you how to look for your answer about "recycling". Sorry, I haven't proven your point. In fact, your _opinion_ about "recycling" doing more harm than good is flat wrong. As stated, you do not believe that, and you've made up your mind. No one is forcing you to put that stuff in the curbside bins, so don't do it.


Great. Then please point me to a study/economic analysis done by economists/academics with no skin in the game. It's not that I don't trust you, I don't trust anyone, and so I like to do my own research, and I don't apologize for that, nor do I think that I should have to. Due respect, but you work for a recycling company, and so I don't consider you to be an objective source, any more than I would consider someone who works for General Motors to be an objective source on what brand of car one should buy.

Surely there are studies out there, hopefully peer reviewed, on whether recycling makes sense from an economic/environmental stance. Please tell me where I can obtain them. I know a bit about solid waste myself, perhaps not as much as yourself, but I don't think that I should be regarded as a clueless neophyte, and you should be careful about what assumptions you make about a person without knowing that person. In a nutshell, here is my position, based on what I do know. Landfills, properly constructed in appropriate areas, are safe ways to dispose of garbage. There are a ton of such areas--anyone who has flown over the United States and looked down knows that there is no shortage of vast, empty tracts in this country, particularly in arid areas with deep water tables that are unsuitable for agriculture, residences or businesses. It is my view that we should be reducing the amount of stuff produced on the front end (which would be fairly easy to do with a levy or tax on unnecessary packaging) and long-hauling most everything to landfills in these areas (with the exception of no-brainer recyclables such as aluminum). To adopt a European solution in a country with as much space as we have here is not, in my opinion, a wise way to address the issue.

Do I sound like an idiot?


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Shaver said:


> One of the most cost effective methods of mining platinum (and other precious metals) has become the sifting of street sweepings: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/15/the-streets-are-paved-with-gold-and-platinum/


Cool. If that's the case, let private enterprise do it and leave my trash alone.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^Now about those recycled plastic (milk?) jugs, I'm presently considering having our front porch rebuilt using synthetic lumber made from recycled plastics that have virtually the same appearance as real wood planks, are certified to be color fast and are guaranteed to maintain that appearance for a minimum of 60 years...longer than our pressure treated lumber porch has lasted and much longer than my wife and I are going to be on this earth. At once we are reducing non-biodegradable landfill, and getting a new front porch that should last forever! Perhaps there are at least a few pluses to recycling...yes, no? :icon_scratch:


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Now about those recycled plastic (milk?) jugs, I'm presently considering having our front porch rebuilt using synthetic lumber made from recycled plastics that have virtually the same appearance as real wood planks, are certified to be color fast and are guaranteed to maintain that appearance for a minimum of 60 years...longer than our pressure treated lumber porch has lasted and much longer than my wife and I are going to be on this earth. At once we are reducing non-biodegradable landfill, and getting a new front porch that should last forever! Perhaps there are at least a few pluses to recycling...yes, no? :icon_scratch:


Provided there are no earmarked tax benefits for your porch or it's manufacturer, yes, to that we can all agree!!


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Now about those recycled plastic (milk?) jugs, I'm presently considering having our front porch rebuilt using synthetic lumber made from recycled plastics that have virtually the same appearance as real wood planks, are certified to be color fast and are guaranteed to maintain that appearance for a minimum of 60 years...longer than our pressure treated lumber porch has lasted and much longer than my wife and I are going to be on this earth. At once we are reducing non-biodegradable landfill, and getting a new front porch that should last forever! Perhaps there are at least a few pluses to recycling...yes, no? :icon_scratch:


Yes, that stuff is great. My mom has a deck from synthetic lumber and it is fabulous. I'm not saying that there aren't pluses to recycling, I am saying that we've gone overboard by subscribing to the theory that landfills are inherently evil.


----------



## Jayzz (Aug 3, 2014)

Hummz OP might be worth your time reading up on LCA(life cycle analysis), where a product is studied from cradle to grave and it's individual effect on the environment. Inclusive of transportation. 8)


----------



## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> Surely there are studies out there, hopefully peer reviewed, on whether recycling makes sense from an economic/environmental stance. Please tell me where I can obtain them.


My recommendation would be to find a supply of Waste Age magazines (the waiting room at your local landfill will have some, I'd think) and look through market pricing information on recycled materials. You can draw your own conclusions pretty quickly.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

MaxBuck said:


> My recommendation would be to find a supply of Waste Age magazines (the waiting room at your local landfill will have some, I'd think) and look through market pricing information on recycled materials. You can draw your own conclusions pretty quickly.


There is a waiting room at the dump in Ohio? Classier town than where I live...


----------



## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> There is a waiting room at the dump in Ohio? Classier town than where I live...


I sometimes sell services to the solid waste crowd. Yeah, I gotta wait in that room.


----------

