# Tieless: Button-down collars vs. Straight collars



## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

I work in a biz casual environment, so no ties. I really dig the button-down collar look with a tie, but not so much without a tie.

Short version of my question: Does anyone else dislike the button-down collar when worn tieless?

Longer version: I'm a big fan of Flusser's book, and he advises that one should consider the shirt collar as a "frame" to the "portrait" that is one's face. In that light, I worry that the tieless button-down collar doesn't create the best "frame."

The tieless button-down creates vertical lines, while the tieless straight collar retains a triangular effect that better frames my face.

I would guess that most people's faces would be better "framed" by the straight collar than the button collar in this situation. Most of us do not have the rectangular, vertical faces to match the vertical lines created by the tieless button-down.

Recently I've become a devotee of the BB Ainsley collar, and prefer the lines it creates when tieless. (Yes, it isn't a "straight" collar, but I figured "straight" vs. "Ainsley" vs. "spread" would open up another discussion.)

Thoughts?


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Sorry, but I'm exactly the opposite. I have my shirts made up generally in one of two configurations:
1. Spread collar with French cuffs for wear with a tie.
2. Button down collar with barrel cuffs for wear without a tie or with a tie and a sports jacket/blazer.

To me a regular collar without a tie doesn't look right. I much prefer a button down if I'm not wearing a tie.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Properly, straight collars are not worn without ties and button dollar collars can be worn either way, though it is understood to be more casual to wear a button down with a tie so such should only be done with sport coats and not suits. I'll admit to not always being proper in that I will wear a straight collar sans tie occasionally.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Most fashion opinions I've ever read, as well as my personal observation and taste. say that button-down collars--with or w/o tie--are flattering to just about every shaped face. More and more I'm going tieless, as, it seems, is the rest of the American business place. I love the new spread collars, though the straight collar is better suited for my square shaped face. I will sometimes wear a spread or point collar sans ties with a pair of wool dress trousers (often with a navy blazer or quality sport coat). I think this can be a quite elegant look. However, the button-down is my go to shirt most of the time_, especially_ when going tieless. The spread and point collars tend to "flatten out" or lay down thus ruining the frame for the face, whereas the button-down (especially if starched) stands up nicely and frames the face nicely throught the day--and evening if suitable for the event. I love all shirts and have an obscene number in my collection. However, if I had to choose only one collar style to wear 99% of the time, I would keep one straight point, one ainsley or spread collar for more formal situations (in white), and choose button-downs in 99% of the situations. Unlike the _uber-trads_, with whom I agree on many things, I like my BD's crisp and heavily starched. Somehow, with any other collar, without a tie it looks like you forgot to fully dress...IMO.


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## Larey (Dec 1, 2007)

*Individual*

I've know a few guys who looked sharp with the no-tie spread collar look, I'm just not one of them. So for me, spread and point collars are for ties, button downs are for ties-blazers-sport coats and tieless bizcaz.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

BIZCAS? sounds like a Basque seperatist hiding in the Pyrenees with his wineflask and lagouille knife. Business Casual sounds better, like your outfit actually has a file clerk and doesn't take shortcuts in operations.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

i have just about given up on sport shirts. to me the new sport shirt is a long sleeve button down, worn open neck with points buttoned. i favor patterns especially checks more than solids. as far as collars framing a face, i would be better off hiding this old one.


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## ilikeyourstyle (Apr 24, 2007)

I see no problem in wearing any of the above mentioned shirts without a tie. You're starting to get extremely picky when you're limiting collar types to be worn without ties.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

ilikeyourstyle said:


> I see no problem in wearing any of the above mentioned shirts without a tie. You're starting to get extremely picky when you're limiting collar types to be worn without ties.


My thoughts exactly. I seldom wear a tie anymore and it doesn't really matter whether I'm wearing a button down or point collar. I often wear tweed jackets with jeans and for that combination I prefer an oxford cloth button down; however, for a blazer (even with jeans) or a suit worn without a tie I generally wear a point collar dress shirt. If I'm dressing up jeans with a Navy blazer I almost always wear a white point collar dress shirt.

Cruiser


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

ilikeyourstyle said:


> I see no problem in wearing any of the above mentioned shirts without a tie. You're *starting to get extremely picky* when you're limiting collar types to be worn without ties.


Sorry, but isn't that the defining characteristic of this site????


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## Reddington (Nov 15, 2007)

jar2574 said:


> Short version of my question: Does anyone else dislike the button-down collar when worn tieless?


For me, the BD is THE shirt. Perfect with and without ties. However, I have never enjoyed wearing a straight collar without a tie. Feels incomplete to me.


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## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

Straight collar without a tie is fine. At least it is in London and i'm happy to take cues from that region. I don't feel uncomfortable at all wearing one without a tie.


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

I dislike point collars under all circumstances, with or without tie.

The only time they look alright is if they are very deep;



BTW who cares about business casual, see if you can get away with wearing a tie


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

I'm not surprised that no one else dislikes the "frame" created by a button-down.

It may be that I'd only worn bad button-downs. You know, the ones that bend outwards slightly instead of standing straight up.

I will try on some BB button-downs in the after-Christmas sale, and see how they look.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Button downs are the only type of collar that can be worn tieless 

All other types of collars fly off in all sorts of odd directions without a tie. Shirts were meant to be worn with ties. Indeed, ties are to a collar what shoelaces are to shoes. 

I still prefer to wear ties with any shirt - button down or otherwise. I will even put a tie on to go down to the local store to buy bread or milk on a Sunday afternoon.


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

Sator said:


> Button downs are the only type of collar that can be worn tieless
> 
> All other types of collars fly off in all sorts of odd directions without a tie. Shirts were meant to be worn with ties. Indeed, ties are to a collar what shoelaces are to shoes.
> 
> I still prefer to wear ties with any shirt - button down or otherwise. I will even put a tie on to go down to the local store to buy bread or milk on a Sunday afternoon.


I wish I could wear a tie to work, but dressing better than one's superiors is not always a good career move.

I haven't had a problem with collars flying in different directions, but I've certainly witnessed the phenomenon.

Bad collars lie in unflattering positions, regardless of whether they are button-down or non-BD.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Saltydog said:


> Most fashion opinions I've ever read, as well as my personal observation and taste. say that button-down collars--with or w/o tie--are flattering to just about every shaped face. More and more I'm going tieless, as, it seems, is the rest of the American business place. I love the new spread collars, though the straight collar is better suited for my square shaped face. I will sometimes wear a spread or point collar sans ties with a pair of wool dress trousers (often with a navy blazer or quality sport coat). I think this can be a quite elegant look. However, the button-down is my go to shirt most of the time_, especially_ when going tieless. The spread and point collars tend to "flatten out" or lay down thus ruining the frame for the face, whereas the button-down (especially if starched) stands up nicely and frames the face nicely throught the day--and evening if suitable for the event. I love all shirts and have an obscene number in my collection. However, if I had to choose only one collar style to wear 99% of the time, I would keep one straight point, one ainsley or spread collar for more formal situations (in white), and choose button-downs in 99% of the situations. Unlike the _uber-trads_, with whom I agree on many things, I like my BD's crisp and heavily starched. Somehow, with any other collar, without a tie it looks like you forgot to fully dress...IMO.


What are the new spread collars?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Sator said:


> Button downs are the only type of collar that can be worn tieless.


Gosh I've been wearing point collar dress shirts without ties for years and nothing bad has happened yet. In fact, that's a point collar shirt I'm wearing in my avatar. I didn't know that I couldn't do that. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

jar2574 said:


> I wish I could wear a tie to work, but dressing better than one's superiors is not always a good career move.
> 
> I haven't had a problem with collars flying in different directions, but I've certainly witnessed the phenomenon.
> 
> Bad collars lie in unflattering positions, regardless of whether they are button-down or non-BD.


On even the best shirts, the collars tend to sit awkwardly and inelegantly.

If your superiors wore shoes without doing up their laces would you copy them? There is this bizarre perception that ties are somehow "dressy". I regard them as a basic dress item like socks.

Just as with shoes there is a hierarchy of formality with ties. Knit ties and lighter coloured ties with rougher textures (linens, wools, cottons and certainly types of silk weaves) lend a more casual air. It would certainly be a mistake to wear a dark coloured silk tie that looks like it belongs with your best dark lounge suit in your setting.

The two best things about wearing ties are:

1. They make you look taller :teacha:
2. They draw the eye towards the face (and more women will notice you )


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

Sator said:


> On even the best shirts, the collars tend to sit awkwardly and inelegantly.
> 
> If your superiors wore shoes without doing up their laces would you copy them? There is this bizarre perception that ties are somehow "dressy". I regard them as a basic dress item like socks.
> 
> ...


If my superiors didn't tie their shoes, I'd probably wear loafers to work while I started looking for a job at a place where people weren't crazy. 

I agree that collars don't sit as elegantly as they would buttoned up, with a tie. But I still think a quality collar looks fine without a tie. We'll agree to disagree I suppose.

I do wish that everyone agreed with you regarding the "dressiness" of ties, because I agree that ties are preferable. In ten years, I plan to wear one everyday. In the meantime, at least my wife won't get jealous at looks I get for wearing a tie. 

Unfortunately, when someone wears a tie everyday and sticks out, the quality of his work product is not always the first topic of discussion when his name comes up. And that's a situation I'd like to avoid.


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## Reddington (Nov 15, 2007)

jar2574 said:


> I wish I could wear a tie to work, but dressing better than one's superiors is not always a good career move.


Perhaps. However, wearing a tie may send the message to upper-management that you're a serious professional. Where I work (and live), very few people wear ties. However that hasn't stopped me. In fact, I would say it has helped me. 

No reason you can't help change the culture where you work. I say....if you want to wear a tie.....do so (and have fun).

Cheers.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

jar2574 said:


> I wish I could wear a tie to work.


Please don't crucify me for saying this but, I don't guess I will ever get this. Don't get me wrong, I own four suits and about 40 ties which I don't hesitate to wear when I think it is either required or appropriate. I take great care to look good in them when I do wear them.

But having said that, I hate to wear a tie. I can't ever remember thinking that I sure would like to put on a tie when the situation didn't call for one or it otherwise wasn't necessary. I enjoy wearing suits and I wear sport coats and blazers all the time even with jeans. My weakness is tweed sport coats. I just don't like to tie a piece of cloth around my neck if I don't have to do so. I joined the Navy because that was the only branch of service that didn't wear a tie.

I have even discussed this with the women in my life over the years because I have always wanted to please them. Most of them are like me, they always wanted me to wear one if the situation called for it such as a wedding, funeral, etc., but otherwise it didn't matter to them. Some in fact preferred the more casual look of no tie.

Again, whether someone else wears a tie or doesn't has never mattered to me one way or the other, but I guess if you don't like to wear one you wonder why others like to wear them. I guess it's just one of those imponderables of life. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## JayJay (Oct 8, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> Sorry, but I'm exactly the opposite. I have my shirts made up generally in one of two configurations:
> 1. Spread collar with French cuffs for wear with a tie.
> 2. Button down collar with barrel cuffs for wear without a tie or with a tie and a sports jacket/blazer.
> 
> To me a regular collar without a tie doesn't look right. I much prefer a button down if I'm not wearing a tie.


Same here.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Back to the shirt collars, a button-down collar makes a shirt a sport shirt, a casual shirt if you will. This makes them more appropriate ties-less. A dress shirt has a point collar/spread collar, or tab collar, amongst others. Only Americans treat the button-down collar as a collar appropriate for a dress shirt and with it with a tie. The buttons on a button down collar keep the collar looking nice when worn without a tie, whereas a point collar will look much sloppier. Spread collars tend to sit a little better when worn tie less. The button-down collar creates a nice frame when worn tie-less because it doesn't look sloppy.


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## eguanlao (Feb 15, 2005)

*Here! Here!*



Mark from Plano said:


> Sorry, but I'm exactly the opposite. I have my shirts made up generally in one of two configurations:
> 1. Spread collar with French cuffs for wear with a tie.
> 2. Button down collar with barrel cuffs for wear without a tie or with a tie and a sports jacket/blazer.
> 
> To me a regular collar without a tie doesn't look right. I much prefer a button down if I'm not wearing a tie.


Thank you.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Matt S said:


> Back to the shirt collars, a button-down collar makes a shirt a sport shirt, a casual shirt if you will. This makes them more appropriate ties-less.


Cary Grant however thought otherwise:

A casual button down shirt merely demands a casual tie.


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## mainy (Mar 17, 2007)

I won't lie - I haven't read the thread. But Zegna and Zanella make semi casual shirts in a range of fabrics with button down collars that have the buttons on the bottom and hidden. I don't know what this is called, but they're pretty cool and made to be worn without a tie.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Looking through my closet, I'm not real sure I can claim to have a dog in this hunt. Of the many shirts hanging there, most are OCBDs, five are button down pinpoints, and only two are straight collars. I can't remember the last time I've worn one of the straight collar shirts, open collar or with a tie! So, I guess by default, I fall into the camp that doesn't wear a strait collar open. Perhaps that qualifies me to be "the accidental sartorialist(!)?" (winks)


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Sator said:


> On even the best shirts, the collars tend to sit awkwardly and inelegantly.
> 
> If your superiors wore shoes without doing up their laces would you copy them? There is this bizarre perception that ties are somehow "dressy". I regard them as a basic dress item like socks.
> 
> ...


Hear, hear! This applies to all of your postings on this thread.
Another advantage of wearing a tie is the addition of some colour to a sober ensemble.
From whence does this appalling prejudice against ties come? I only go tieless when not wearing a jacket, and have said many times that the look of an open-necked shirt with a jacket is sloppy and unfinished, not to say incongruous and even vulgar. (These properties are compounded if a suit is worn.)
If someone doesn't want to wear a tie, he should go without the jacket. I take the point that jackets and suits were not part of the original matter of this thread.


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## Woodward (Nov 23, 2007)

jar2574 said:


> I wish I could wear a tie to work, but dressing better than one's superiors is not always a good career move.
> 
> I haven't had a problem with collars flying in different directions, but I've certainly witnessed the phenomenon.
> 
> Bad collars lie in unflattering positions, regardless of whether they are button-down or non-BD.


Jar,

Great thread! The politics of every office are certainly local. I decided a few weeks ago to start wearing suit and tie everyday in an office that is bizcazh. My boss and my peers certainly gave me some static. However, the Senior Veep (the c-suite at my company is all suit and tie) commented on my how good my suit looked, right in front of my boss. Next day, my boss was wearing jacket and tie. Now I have a good relationship with my boss, so I was able to rib him pretty mercilessly about it. If we didn't have a such a friendly relationship, I would have been worried.

Woodward


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

williamson said:


> I only go tieless when not wearing a jacket, and have said many times that the look of an open-necked shirt with a jacket is sloppy and unfinished, not to say incongruous and even vulgar. (These properties are compounded if a suit is worn.)


And I take the position that when your discussions and opinions of something as innocent and benign as wearing a sport coat or suit with an open necked shirt leads to it being described as "vulgar", then you clearly have misplaced values yourself. There are far too many real things in this world that are "vulgar". This isn't one of them. Just my opinion.

Cruiser


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

Tieless looks sloppier with business suits... plenty of men wear cravats under an open neck shirt (often spread collar) with an odd jacket and it looks fine.


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

If I am going tie-less I prefer the BD. The exception is for after-hours casual events when I want to wear links -- none of my French cuff shirts are BDs, but look alright under an odd jacket without a tie, though some fussing with the collar is inevitable over the course of the evening.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

No to bd!


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## Reddington (Nov 15, 2007)

Woodward said:


> Jar,
> 
> Great thread! The politics of every office are certainly local. I decided a few weeks ago to start wearing suit and tie everyday in an office that is bizcazh. My boss and my peers certainly gave me some static. However, the Senior Veep (the c-suite at my company is all suit and tie) commented on my how good my suit looked, right in front of my boss. Next day, my boss was wearing jacket and tie. Now I have a good relationship with my boss, so I was able to rib him pretty mercilessly about it. If we didn't have a such a friendly relationship, I would have been worried.
> 
> Woodward


Great story Woodward. This supports what I firmly believe. IMO, if one wants to 'move-up' in a company, one must dress professionally. Work is not play-time, so why dress down. Dress like you mean business.


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## style councillor (Dec 6, 2007)

Again, straight forward and simple.
Straight collars for suits.
Button down collars for casual :icon_smile:


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Rossini said:


> No to bd!


+1. We should put that on some placards and form a picket line outside Brooks Bros! :icon_smile_big:


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> And I take the position that when your discussions and opinions of something as innocent and benign as wearing a sport coat or suit with an open necked shirt leads to it being described as "vulgar", then you clearly have misplaced values yourself. There are far too many real things in this world that are "vulgar". This isn't one of them. Just my opinion.
> Cruiser


Your use of the words "innocent"and "benign" manifest value judgments as much as my word "vulgar" may do. I used the wrong word and over-stated my case, but I suspected that you would violently over-react and you did. Sometimes it seems that you are still fighting the causes of the hippie-student-radical generation - we're now forty years on.


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## Reddington (Nov 15, 2007)

This young man shows us the joy of not wearing a BD shirt. (LOL). :icon_smile_big: 
BD's for me please.

Cheers!


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

williamson said:


> Your use of the words "innocent"and "benign" manifest value judgments as much as my word "vulgar" may do. I used the wrong word and over-stated my case, but I suspected that you would violently over-react and you did.


You call my simple response to what you said a "violent" overreaction? I think if was a pretty simple response to what you now say was your use of the wrong word and an overstatement of the case on your part. I have to take the words that you use at face value. I can't read your mind.



> Sometimes it seems that you are still fighting the causes of the hippie-student-radical generation - we're now forty years on.


I'm a 59 year old conservative Republican who curently holds a political appointment by a Republican Mayor in a wealthy Republican community. But what does any of that have to do with choice of collar style or whether it is buttoned or unbuttoned?

I will admit to having been a long haired hippie radical many, many years ago in my youth but I don't remember us ever sitting around the bong discussing what type collar we should wear when we are tieless.

Cruiser


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Getting all sorts of inappropriate mental images here!


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## DunninLA (Aug 17, 2007)

I find the tieless point collar dress shirt a little ... incomplete.

My work calls for a business suit and tie less than twice per month. I deal with mid-market business owners by and large, and they generally don't wear more than a sport coat except when visiting their lenders 

So, my objective is to dress one level more formal than they when we have a meeting. If I know them to wear a sportcoat and tie, I wear a suit and tie. If sportcoat and no tie (think of 80% of college professors), then I wear sport coat and tie.

If they wear casual shirt, I wear sport coat and no tie.

In every circumstance, a buttoned collar shirt is appropriate, with or without tie. It is the most versatile of shirts, especially if white or light blue. Many of my button collared shirts are patterned (Zegna, Brioni, Barbera), so I've had to add navy, grey and Khaki colored sport coats either solid, or very muted in pattern to complement the shirts.


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## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

James Murdoch (son of Rupert) in business dress.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

Sator said:


> I still prefer to wear ties with any shirt - button down or otherwise. I will even put a tie on to go down to the local store to buy bread or milk on a Sunday afternoon.


Can't say I don a tie to go to the supermarket, but when wearing a shirt and jacket I would prefer to always wear a tie. Being that at my job noone even wears a jacket, wearing a tie would be considered over the top amongst individuals with such diminished standards. Sometimes you have to be one of the boys I guess.

I laugh when I hear people comment on the negative aspects of wearing ties who at 5:01pm open their top collar button and violently pull the knot of silk away from their necks as if it was a noose. I want to tell them all, buy quality shirts that fit and wearing a shirt with a tie will be as comfortable as wearing an open shirt.

MrR


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

Akajack said:


> James Murdoch (son of Rupert) in business dress.


He doesn't look as good as he would if he were wearing a tie, but the picture is one of many examples showing that the "rules" of business dress have changed.


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## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

I do agree with you on both points. I saw this "look" quite a lot in London the last few times I was there as I was noticing dress (as opposed to architecture!) more.



jar2574 said:


> He doesn't look as good as he would if he were wearing a tie, but the picture is one of many examples showing that the "rules" of business dress have changed.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

More examples of just how prevalent the tieless look is these days.

Dr. Phil
https://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4382drphilvideoxm7.jpg

Dieter Zetsche, former CEO Daimler Chrysler
https://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3360949634smartfortwoinhd8.jpg

Jack Welch, CEO General Electric
https://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=061013welchvmed1pwidecog7.jpg

Alan Colmes
https://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alancolmesye5.jpg

Sean Hannity
https://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1833699wo4.jpg

Barack Obama
https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0283filteredko5.jpg

John Kerry
https://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=john20kerry20damascusoh5.jpg

John Edwards
https://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=johnedwardsmpls1tt1.jpg

Joe Scarborough
https://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nscarboroughvlog0512283cd1.jpg

Oooops, that's yours truly. Sorry.
https://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0006ok2.gif

Cruiser


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## lee lin (May 2, 2007)

what do you guys think of a mandarin collar like the ones from shanghai tang or the cooper collared shirts from paul stuart?


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

jar2574 said:


> He doesn't look as good as he would if he were wearing a tie, but the picture is one of many examples showing that the "rules" of business dress have changed.


Actually, "if Daddy owns the business it doesn't matter what you wear" is kind of an old rule.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> More examples of just how prevalent the tieless look is these days.


with many, from Dr. Phil down, showing how easy it is to get wrong. Not that I'm against it. It's just that you have to work it so it doesn't just look like there's a tie missing that you couldn't be bothered to keep on.


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## style councillor (Dec 6, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> More examples of just how prevalent the tieless look is these days.
> 
> Dr. Phil
> https://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4382drphilvideoxm7.jpg
> ...


What a set of scrubbers


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

Looks awkward, like calculated informality.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

Mark from Plano said:


> Sorry, but I'm exactly the opposite. I have my shirts made up generally in one of two configurations:
> 1. Spread collar with French cuffs for wear with a tie.
> 2. Button down collar with barrel cuffs for wear without a tie or with a tie and a sports jacket/blazer.
> 
> To me a regular collar without a tie doesn't look right. I much prefer a button down if I'm not wearing a tie.


+1 I agree completely with Mark.


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

jar2574 said:


> I work in a biz casual environment, so no ties. I really dig the button-down collar look with a tie, but not so much without a tie.
> 
> Short version of my question: Does anyone else dislike the button-down collar when worn tieless?
> 
> ...


Buttoned down collars without ties always struck me as kind of odd... it seems like it must say something about a person's character that he'll unbutton one button only to button down two more. :icon_smile_big:


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

katon said:


> Buttoned down collars without ties always struck me as kind of odd... it seems like it must say something about a person's character that he'll unbutton one button only to button down two more. :icon_smile_big:


He isn't unbuttoning one button, he isn't buttoning it to start with. So let's take this a step further. What about leaving one button unbuttoned on a suit coat and buttoning another. Or leaving the bottom button unbuttoned on a vest and buttoning several more. I'd say we have a lot of folks with questionable character here. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

katon said:


> Buttoned down collars without ties always struck me as kind of odd... it seems like it must say something about a person's character that he'll unbutton one button only to button down two more. :icon_smile_big:





Cruiser said:


> He isn't unbuttoning one button, he isn't buttoning it to start with. So let's take this a step further. What about leaving one button unbuttoned on a suit coat and buttoning another. Or leaving the bottom button unbuttoned on a vest and buttoning several more. I'd say we have a lot of folks with questionable character here. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


Personally, my questionable character has absolutely nothing to do with my collar buttons.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

style councillor said:


> Again, straight forward and simple.
> Straight collars for suits.
> Button down collars for casual :icon_smile:


^+1. Short and simple.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*Straight Collar = Plastic Collar*

Buttondown collars are the only collar [pinned club and tab possibly excepted] that looks good with soft lining (or better yet no lining) and no stays. Who wants to wear a piece of plastic around their neck? Well, to each his own. But no plastic collars for me, thanks.


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## Jordan Ross (Feb 4, 2005)

Mark from Plano said:


> Sorry, but isn't that the defining characteristic of this site????


Quite right, in fact I think the real question is, why would you work in an establishment where no one wears ties in the first place?!?!?!


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

AldenPyle said:


> Buttondown collars are the only collar [pinned club and tab possibly excepted] that looks good with soft lining (or better yet no lining) and no stays. Who wants to wear a piece of plastic around their neck? Well, to each his own. But no plastic collars for me, thanks.


Do you have something against brass?


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

Jordan Ross said:


> Quite right, in fact I think the real question is, why would you work in an establishment where no one wears ties in the first place?!?!?!


The pay. 

I'm afraid that the quality of one's work and the size of one's paycheck are no longer directly correlated with wearing a tie.

AFAIK the dress codeS at most I-banks, law firms, and Fortune 500 companies are now business casual, at least when you're starting out.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Jordan Ross said:


> why would you work in an establishment where no one wears ties in the first place?!?!?!


For me it was a six figure salary.

Cruiser


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

AldenPyle said:


> Buttondown collars are the only collar [pinned club and tab possibly excepted] that looks good with soft lining (or better yet no lining) and no stays. Who wants to wear a piece of plastic around their neck? Well, to each his own. But no plastic collars for me, thanks.


If you are wearing a suit, the pinned and tab collars are a great look. Much better for a suit than a button-down.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

A suit without a tie is a pants suit. It looks absolutely awful. Before anyone pulls out that Tom Cruise picture again I will go on record saying he would look much better with a tie.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Matt S said:


> If you are wearing a suit, the pinned and tab collars are a great look. Much better for a suit than a button-down.


Don't get me wrong, they are fun. But wouldn't they be a bit, I don't know, precious for day to day wear? Well, what do I know anyway. I am not a businessman so when I wear a suit I like the style pointers pointing casual.

But clothes should be comfortable. A soft collar shirt with tie is just as comfortable to me as no tie (if the shirt fits). Wearing a stiff piece of plastic around your neck though cant be comfortable. Seems feudal, somehow, or at the very least Victorian.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

AldenPyle said:


> Don't get me wrong, they are fun. But wouldn't they be a bit, I don't know, precious for day to day wear? Well, what do I know anyway. I am not a businessman so when I wear a suit I like the style pointers pointing casual.
> 
> But clothes should be comfortable. A soft collar shirt with tie is just as comfortable to me as no tie (if the shirt fits). Wearing a stiff piece of plastic around your neck though cant be comfortable. Seems feudal, somehow, or at the very least Victorian.


A suit is not casual wear, which is why a button-down collar is inappropriate. Point collars to spread collars can be worn with a suit, but you don't appear to be fond of these. So this leaves tab collars and pinned straight collars. Pinned collars used to be very common back in the day. They are all over classic American films. All these, including collar stays, are just ways of keeping a collar looking neat. Only button-down collars achieve this without a tie. Straight or spread collars can be worn without a tie, but won't look quite as neat as a button-down without a tie.


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

Matt S said:


> Straight or spread collars can be worn without a tie, but won't look quite as neat as a button-down without a tie.


Several posters have mentioned this.

While I agree that without a tie a straight or spread collar will not always be as "neat" as a button down, I think that narrow, rectagular faces are best served by button downs.

Wide faces can look extra wide, or inverted triangle faces can look like too bulbous when they are framed by the button down collar without a tie.

Bad bd collars, that bend outwards instead of straight up, really do a poor job of framing those types of faces.

But like I said, I'm going to give the bb bd a try while they are on sale right after Christmas. It may be that most of the bd collars I've seen were poor imitations of the original.


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## spectre (May 12, 2007)

I think cutaway, more than spread collars, can look very sharp and dashing without a tie. You can get away with adding an odd jacket in my opinion because of the rakish angle of the collar, but all suits worn without ties look absolutely appalling.
The need to wear what everyone else is wearing which seems to be mandatory in some US offices intrigues me.
As a journalist in Australia I can get away with wearing almost anything, short of a track suit but I choose to wear a suit and tie every day or sometimes a cashmere jacket, slacks and a tie, Nobody else in my office dresses like this but no-one cares at all that I do. In fact I find when I am interviewing people they tend to pay me a little more attention because I have at least shown them some respect. Even footballers take no notice of my dress, which always includes a pocket square, and helpfully answer questions.
Sator's adherance to proper dress standards at all time should be applauded. I know I have encouraged a few other co-workers to dress up a little and they even ask me for advice without any embarrassment at all. I'm sure Sator has a positive influence on those he is in contact with.

Off track, but that's what happens here.


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## flylot74 (Jul 26, 2007)

My button downs are with barrel cuffs worn without jacket (consider temperature and location) or with a sport jacket and either no tie (casual) or with tie (it's called "dressin' up" where I live). The bd also have a shirt pocket for reading glasses when without jacket.

For suits, only spread collars with French cuffs and no shirt pocket.

I have some spread collar barrel cuffed shirt I tried to wear with the occasional sport jacket. It simply didn't work for me. Constantly it seemed, one of the collars would get under the lapel of the jacket and I simply looked like hell! I simply have relegated them to when I wear my sport jacket with a bow tie.


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