# The Amazing World of Peregrine Heathcoate.



## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I shall require erstwhile Mod and painter Gurdon to sort me out. Treading perilously close to kitsch, I still find myself drawn to the world he creates. Not surprising considering my fondness for Art Deco and the period motifs he elects to employ, but this also verges on, and is perhaps even better described as surrealism. It's as if Norman Rockwell, Tamara de Lempicka and Salvador Dali all got together and made a baby! :eek2:

https://www.google.com/search?q=per...v&ved=0ahUKEwjZ-a7h3MfPAhXLuB4KHTqUBIkQsAQITw


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

A few more -


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Those are indeed memorable works of art. Love the pics, but given your assumptions as to the root nature of the creative process, as stated in the OP, I am almost glad I was not an eye witness at the moment of creation! LOL. 

If this continues, I fear I too may yet become a fan of Art Deco and that is an interesting and arguably unusual twist for a self-proclaimed hillbilly. :icon_scratch:


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Those are indeed memorable works of art. Love the pics, but given your assumptions as to the root nature of the creative process, as stated in the OP, I am almost glad I was not an eye witness at the moment of creation! LOL.
> 
> If this continues, I fear I too may yet become a fan of Art Deco and that is an interesting and arguably unusual twist for a self-proclaimed hillbilly. :icon_scratch:


It seems art like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the particular genre this might belong to requires the knowledge and sophistication of a gentleman of Gurdon's stature. Is it just kitsch? It's prettiness suggests it might be, but I sense more going on here than just pretty pictures. The compositions are both complex and subtle. Simply facile? I don't know. And while Art Deco is an undeniable element, it's not that either. Closer in some ways to surrealism. Is there such a genre as Magical Realism in art as there is in literature? We'll have to wait for friend Gurdon to give it a name.

But were I to take a stab at coining a term, I might try Magical Idealism.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Surreal seems the best shorthand description for the paintings. Although they are done in an Art Deco mode. They evoke a very pleasant nostalgic glow, and remind me of book illustrations in pre-war children's books, one of which, The Modern Story Book," Copyright 1931, I just took off the bookshelf at my studio. (My copy was printed in 1947, two years before the Christmas it was given me.)

The pictures Flanderian shared are not Kitsch. They are, nonetheless, still pretty, and give pleasure when looked at. I don't think I could explain why they are good, it's not because of their prettiness, except to refer to the best of the early, pre 1924 art (synchretist?) produced in the USSR, most of which was not pretty. It may, in some measure, be that the works reveal/communicate the artist's emotional engagement with the machines, and disclose the erotic dimensions of the power and movement of trains and planes. Weston's peppers are another example. Although, Puritan that I am I can almost agree with EW's assertions that he was just interested in the forms of the peppers. I highly recommend the book by Edward Weston and Charis Wilson, "California and the West." It is based on the photos he made in 1937 and '38 on the Guggenheim he received. The pictures are worth seeing and in conjunction with the text communicate a sense of those times. My studio is located on a segment of the Old Coast Highway and I sometimes think about them driving by here 129 years ago. 

I may be particularly susceptible to nostalgia this evening, having driven out to the Mendocino Coast from Sonoma County over twisty winding coast range roads lighted a bit by the first quarter moon. A drive I have been taking for about 50 years.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

If I may dissent, these things posses but the slick and souless veneer of art such as might be ground out by a greetings card designer. I am reminded of 1980's Athena prints colliding with Jack Vettriano. Decidedly not to my tastes.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

His portraiture is pretty different from his sort of poster-art style work.

I like the listed works as illustration - I think they would make great cover art for some kind of pulp adventure series - and as poster art, but I think I'd get tired of having it on my walls.

(I recall a good discussion about buying art in this very forum a year or two ago.)

DH


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Gurdon said:


> Surreal seems the best shorthand description for the paintings. Although they are done in an Art Deco mode. They evoke a very pleasant nostalgic glow, and remind me of book illustrations in pre-war children's books, one of which, The Modern Story Book," Copyright 1931, I just took off the bookshelf at my studio. (My copy was printed in 1947, two years before the Christmas it was given me.)
> 
> The pictures Flanderian shared are not Kitsch. They are, nonetheless, still pretty, and give pleasure when looked at. I don't think I could explain why they are good, it's not because of their prettiness, except to refer to the best of the early, pre 1924 art (synchretist?) produced in the USSR, most of which was not pretty. It may, in some measure, be that the works reveal/communicate the artist's emotional engagement with the machines, and disclose the erotic dimensions of the power and movement of trains and planes. Weston's peppers are another example. Although, Puritan that I am I can almost agree with EW's assertions that he was just interested in the forms of the peppers. I highly recommend the book by Edward Weston and Charis Wilson, "California and the West." It is based on the photos he made in 1937 and '38 on the Guggenheim he received. The pictures are worth seeing and in conjunction with the text communicate a sense of those times. My studio is located on a segment of the Old Coast Highway and I sometimes think about them driving by here 129 years ago.
> 
> ...


Thank you for helping to continue my enlightenment by taking the time to offer a helpful analogy. I value your opinions. :thumbs-up:

I think I was most struck by his dramatic presentation of lighting. I've seen this lighting in my dreams, and I'm drawn to it.



Shaver said:


> If I may dissent, these things posses but the slick and souless veneer of art such as might be ground out by a greetings card designer. I am reminded of 1980's Athena prints colliding with Jack Vettriano. Decidedly not to my tastes.


Point taken. And I certainly don't think you're mistaken about its slickness.



Dhaller said:


> His portraiture is pretty different from his sort of poster-art style work.
> 
> I like the listed works as illustration - I think they would make great cover art for some kind of pulp adventure series - and as poster art, but I think I'd get tired of having it on my walls.
> 
> ...


I think you've touched on a very significant issue. While there's not necessarily any correlation between what is found on walls and art, I really wouldn't wish any of these pretty pictures hanging on mine, as I'd grow weary of them too easily, but I'd be delighted to have a quality art book full of reproductions.

I've recently returned from holiday and visited a gallery which sells art by local artists and others. I like what they display, and always visit. And a painter of whom I've become fond is named Charlie Hunter. He's a very interesting character and has described part of his approach as willingness to find beauty in ugliness. He often works in encaustic, but while this larger painting has a similar effect, it's described as simply oil on canvas. And while some might blanch at this notion, I'd love to have it hanging on my wall! (As of a couple weeks ago, it still hung on the gallery's wall priced at $9,000. Modest enough for fine art to the right party should they respond as passionately to it as I do.)

Titled:* Moore and Thompson at Twilight

*


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> I think I was most struck by his dramatic presentation of lighting. I've seen this lighting in my dreams, and I'm drawn to


I had been mulling this subject over during the occasional idle moment and wished to return to comment that your description "Norman Rockwell, Tamara de Lempicka and Salvador Dali all got together and made a baby" is exceedingly apt. I had then intended to ramble on about racehorses designed by committee and so on and so forth, I am certain that you appreciate the gist of it.

Most importantly, though, I had intended to praise the element of these paintings which I do admire and that is the manner in which the quality of light is captured (albeit a technique swiped from Dali) and which is, of course, predicated upon Catalonian light - possessed of a shimmering clarity, a seductive dream-like milieux.

As seen here "Figure at a Window" painted in 1925










and reprised here in "Young Virgin Auto-Sodomized by the Horns of Her Own Chastity" painted in 1954


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










and (just for jollies) reprised again here "Gala Contemplating the Mediterranean Sea which at Twenty Meters Becomes the Portrait of Abraham Lincoln-Homage to Rothko (Second Version)" painted in 1976:










And, whilst I am rollin' on a Salvador tip, I shall present one of my own absolute favourites "Leda Atomica" - the subtlety of this painting overwhelms me. You will notice that not one element of this composition is in direct contact with another (the sea is even suspended above the shore) the composition is riddled with adherence to mathematical formula, with a mythic scale of reference, from Zeus' escapades 'ravishing' in the guise of a swan, to Shiva the Destroyer, via Santa Maria, contained in a pocket universe, a post Hiroshima waterglobe where it is 8.15 and that's the time it's always been. Splendid!


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## DougN (Feb 6, 2016)

I've seen a couple of his exhibitions. I was drawn to his work since it reminds of the glorious travel posters from the 1930's.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

I don't like them I'm afraid, both aesthetically and technically. The spacial awareness is wrong in them; the perspective is wrong, the angles of view are wrong. Not deliberately so, I fear, but through failings in the skill of the artist.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Shaver said:


> I had been mulling this subject over during the occasional idle moment and wished to return to comment that your description "Norman Rockwell, Tamara de Lempicka and Salvador Dali all got together and made a baby" is exceedingly apt. I had then intended to ramble on about racehorses designed by committee and so on and so forth, I am certain that you appreciate the gist of it.
> 
> Most importantly, though, I had intended to praise the element of these paintings which I do admire and that is the manner in which the quality of light is captured (albeit a technique swiped from Dali) and which is, of course, predicated upon Catalonian light - possessed of a shimmering clarity, a seductive dream-like milieux.
> 
> ...


I've appreciated much of Dali's work, my favourite having been some of his crucifixion oeuvres, like this one: https://stirringconstantly.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/christ-of-st-john-of-the-cross.jpg







But his enthusiastic support for Franco and his disgusting actions, like writing a letter to the dying Franco urging him not to show mercy to some political dissidents, and urging him to have them shot, successfully, rather put me off.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Chouan said:


> I've appreciated much of Dali's work, my favourite having been some of his crucifixion oeuvres, like this one: https://stirringconstantly.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/christ-of-st-john-of-the-cross.jpg
> View attachment 16587
> 
> But his enthusiastic support for Franco and his disgusting actions, like writing a letter to the dying Franco urging him not to show mercy to some political dissidents, and urging him to have them shot, successfully, rather put me off.


I too liked Dali, but I never looked to him as a man whose political views might be taken seriously.

However, let us not overlook the fact that there were many in Spain who were openly enthusiastic in their support of Franco, and who in some cases had reason to prefer his regime to the alternatives. Franco brought some semblance of stability to Spain for almost 40 years, which had been somewhat elusive hitherto.

I visited Spain in I think 1973 when Franco was still in power and even then he seemed to be a popular figure. (I acknowledge that by then many of his opponents had either left or were merely biding their time.)


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Indeed. I could not give a tuppenny whatsit for the political leanings of Artists. In much the same manner as a politician's talent for watercolours would not forgive them their moral lapses. 

At any rate Fascismo and Art have ever enjoyed a healthy tryst.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Langham said:


> I too liked Dali, but I never looked to him as a man whose political views might be taken seriously.
> 
> However, let us not overlook the fact that there were many in Spain who were openly enthusiastic in their support of Franco, and who in some cases had reason to prefer his regime to the alternatives. Franco brought some semblance of stability to Spain for almost 40 years, which had been somewhat elusive hitherto.
> 
> I visited Spain in I think 1973 when Franco was still in power and even then he seemed to be a popular figure. (I acknowledge that by then many of his opponents had either left or were merely biding their time.)


Read Paul Preston "The Spanish Holocaust". The illusion that Franco brought stability to Spain is one that was shared by many on the right, conveniently ignoring the fact that the unrest was being caused by the people who became Franco's supporters. As you will no doubt be aware, most dictators, in their lifetime, appear to be popular figures; usually because it isn't safe to have other views. Franco's concentration camps were still in operation in '73, by the way.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Thanks Chouan, I have already read quite sufficiently about the Spanish civil war, the turmoil that preceded it, and about the ensuing state that emerged in the aftermath, to form my own quite settled opinion about Franco.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Shaver said:


> I had been mulling this subject over during the occasional idle moment and wished to return to comment that your description "Norman Rockwell, Tamara de Lempicka and Salvador Dali all got together and made a baby" is exceedingly apt. I had then intended to ramble on about racehorses designed by committee and so on and so forth, I am certain that you appreciate the gist of it.
> 
> Most importantly, though, I had intended to praise the element of these paintings which I do admire and that is the manner in which the quality of light is captured (albeit a technique swiped from Dali) and which is, of course, predicated upon Catalonian light - possessed of a shimmering clarity, a seductive dream-like milieux.
> . . . . .
> ...


Thank you for your insights and instruction.

And Honest Abe never looked better! 



Langham said:


> II visited Spain in I think 1973 when Franco was still in power and even then he seemed to be a popular figure. (I acknowledge that by then many of his opponents had either left or were merely biding their time.)


I spent a holiday in Catalonia in 1969. Very buttoned down.

Though I found it somewhat disconcerting to be greeted at the airport in the early morning hours by a squad of nervous young men with automatic weapons, all to welcome a plane load of visiting Americans.

And I'm uncertain the Catalans shared very much of the enthusiasm for Franco.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Chouan said:


> I don't like them I'm afraid, both aesthetically and technically. The spacial awareness is wrong in them; the perspective is wrong, the angles of view are wrong. Not deliberately so, I fear, but through failings in the skill of the artist.


I customarily assume that artists' apparent technical lapses are, in fact purposeful. But this betrays my general indifference to draftsmanship. I don't object to it in Andrew Wyeth's work.

Gurdon


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Langham said:


> Thanks Chouan, I have already read quite sufficiently about the Spanish civil war, the turmoil that preceded it, and about the ensuing state that emerged in the aftermath, to form my own quite settled opinion about Franco.


No doubt.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> I spent a holiday in Catalonia in 1969. Very buttoned down.
> 
> Though I found it somewhat disconcerting to be greeted at the airport in the early morning hours by a squad of nervous young men with automatic weapons, all to welcome a plane load of visiting Americans.
> 
> And I'm uncertain the Catalans shared very much of the enthusiasm for Franco.


Very Spanish. However, arriving at many airports nowadays, one is still quite likely to encounter nervous young men armed with automatic weapons.

No, the Catalans were hardly foremost among Franco's admirers, and have always been rather distrusting of the Castilians. My 1973 holiday was spent mostly in Madrid. I remember there were still a lot of maimed veterans from the civil war on street corners or driving rather unusual invalid carriages.

Authoritarian but not a fascist, the Caudillo enjoyed rather greater success than most of the 20th C's other dictators - latterly of course with much support from the West.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> Thank you for your insights and instruction.
> 
> And Honest Abe never looked better!
> 
> ...


The Catalans saw their language and culture forbidden, and of course saw tens of thousands of people executed for being perceived as "reds". An accusation that one was a "red" was sufficient evidence for execution, as was publicly speaking in Catalan in the 1940's. One of the reasons why Barca is nearly religiously supported in Catalunya is that it was the only safe way in which one could show one's Catalan identity.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

The Heathcoate works are not great art but they are satisfactory art, and aesthetically satisfying for certain individuals.

Irrespective of style there is a common attribute of successful works of art involved in the process/act of perceiving them - the sensory experience of perception. 

Walter Benjamin referred to this (I believe this is what he was talking about) as the aura of a work of art. He was trying to describe a metaphysical aspect of artistic criticism. In the 1950's and 60's one might have referred to the painterly qualities of a work. I used this term in the discussion of kitsch. More recently, the convergence of art history and neuroscience is pointing toward hard-wired processes that give rise to the feelings/experiences adumbrated above. 

The Cubist works illustrate this very well, and on more than one plane (Sorry, I couldn't resist.), in that they evoke emotional response, and they observe Western standards of line, form and color.

What we like, that is what objects or performances elicit a sensory experience of perception, will vary with time and circumstances. The Hopalong Cassidy spinning lampshade is now, for me, a pleasant and mildly nostalgic memory. When I was in grammar school it was an engaging and fascinating mini-Gesamptkunstwerk that provided considerable emotional stimulation. "To each his/her own," is qualified by time, education, aptitude and temperament.

If it isn't too opaque, I hope this is helpful. Thinking about it and writing it down has been very helpful to me.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

For my part the convergence of talent and imagination allows for my keenest appreciation. At the risk of condescension- many seem, at worst,unable to recognise either quality or, at best, will settle for either one in isolation.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Shaver said:


> For my part the convergence of talent and imagination allows for my keenest appreciation. At the risk of condescension- many seem, at worst,unable to recognise either quality or, at best, will settle for either one in isolation.


The circumstance to which you allude is a manifestation of our impoverished culture, and a lot of other things. Some are susceptible to amelioration through education and greater public exposure to the arts. Others, including the innate capacities of people, less, sometimes hopelessly, so. We are lucky.
Gurdon


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

"Wealth and speed are what the world admires, what each pursues. Railways, express mails, steamships and every possible facility for communications are the achievement in which the civilized world view and revels, only to languish in mediocrity by that very fact. Indeed, the effect of this diffusion is to spread the culture of the mediocre." - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

Gurdon said:


> The circumstance to which you allude is a manifestation of our impoverished culture, and a lot of other things. Some are susceptible to amelioration through education and greater public exposure to the arts. Others, including the innate capacities of people, less, sometimes hopelessly, so. We are lucky.
> Gurdon


The problem may be less "impoverished culture" than "too much culture".

Not too many decades ago, "educated" entailed a fairly narrow line of books, languages, and influences, all rooted in Classical thought and aesthetics. It's easier for a collective to nod appreciatively in unison when they've all had the same fairly specific set of influences ingrained into them.

But now? Is beautiful music rhythmic? harmonic? atonal? characterized by the rapid, complex beats of African drumming? the simple 3-chord harmony of The Blues?

Is classical literature Homer? Lady Murasaki? the Vedas? and so on.

I'm "classically educated", my generation probably the last generation which might be called that, and so my peers and I can share a fair amount of agreement on aesthetic questions, but the young folks of today, equally-well exposed to Shakespeare and Achebe, are probably going to have a more nuanced view of what "quality" might mean.

(Even the "absolutes", such as preference for symmetries, has come under suspicion in modern times.)

DH


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Dhaller said:


> The problem may be less "impoverished culture" than "too much culture".
> 
> Not too many decades ago, "educated" entailed a fairly narrow line of books, languages, and influences, all rooted in Classical thought and aesthetics. It's easier for a collective to nod appreciatively in unison when they've all had the same fairly specific set of influences ingrained into them.
> 
> ...


I agree with much of wha you say in this post. IMHO, the answer to both of your questions is yes. The present arts scene is wonderfully diverse and complex. Whatever we may like or not like about it, we can observe and discuss with some degree of expectation of being understood.

Access to higher education of reasonable quality is diminishing, the the number and percentage of culturally illiterate citizens is increasing. Just as there is a widening income gap between the rich and poor, there is a comparable and widening cultural literacy gap between the educated and the rest of society.

We are all poorer by some measure to the degree that the majority of our fellow citizens and their families are culturally impoverished.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

Gurdon said:


> I agree with much of wha you say in this post. IMHO, the answer to both of your questions is yes. The present arts scene is wonderfully diverse and complex. Whatever we may like or not like about it, we can observe and discuss with some degree of expectation of being understood.
> 
> Access to higher education of reasonable quality is diminishing, the the number and percentage of culturally illiterate citizens is increasing. Just as there is a widening income gap between the rich and poor, there is a comparable and widening cultural literacy gap between the educated and the rest of society.
> 
> ...


Well - I'm going to caveat this by saying this is supposition on my part - I wonder if much of the seeming "cultural illiteracy" of modern times is simply that the culturally illiterate are *heard*.

I mean, there was never a time when a potato farmer in Macon, Georgia held sophisticated views, but a few decades ago he couldn't post his blitheringly-idiotic opinions on Facebook.

Now he can.

DH


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Call for submittals*



Dhaller said:


> Well - I'm going to caveat this by saying this is supposition on my part - I wonder if much of the seeming "cultural illiteracy" of modern times is simply that the culturally illiterate are *heard*.
> 
> I mean, there was never a time when a potato farmer in Macon, Georgia held sophisticated views, but a few decades ago he couldn't post his blitheringly-idiotic opinions on Facebook.
> 
> ...


The percentage of the US population living on farms declined dramatically in the 20th century. It was around 40% in the 1920's, 18% in 1945. It was less than 1% at the end of the century. Until the TVA and dams in the West brought electricity to rural areas in the US people there had little access to news of any kind, let alone information about cultural matters. In the second half of the century this changed dramatically. Virtually everyone has access to the bulk of cultural production (art, music, literature), if they want it and can make use of it.

At the same time, the nature of cultural production has changed dramatically. Bob Dylan just won the Nobel Prize in literature. I understand him to be a gifted poet and writer of global significance. I am pretty sure that there are many participants in Ask Andy forums who would object to him being awarded the Nobel, and who would disagree with my characterization of his literary merit. The NYT ran an editorial today objecting on the grounds that Dylan is a singer, not a poet.

I am not terribly familiar with the cultural content of the web. But I try, not too successfully, to maintain a slender connection to cultural matters. That there is much drivel out there is not at issue. You seem to be saying that a result of so many people able to share their cultural production is a proliferation of junk.

I hope there is enough interest in this topic to continue what has been so far an interesting discussion.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I fear Alice Munro may be mailing her medal back to Sweden! 

(But I hope she kept the money!)


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

I looked up Alice Munro. It's not at all hard to see the possibility of literary merit in her life and the regularity and accessibility of her literary production. Many might find it harder to accept Dylan, who has made a living as a popular singer, as a major poet. I accept the judgment of others whom I know that he is. 

I confess that I lack critical acuity when it comes to literature. I know how to read critically and can discern the structural and stylistic devices that enable one to appreciate and, if you will, judge works. My desire is to promote an interesting discussion among people who know and care about the arts and from whom I/we can learn how to look, read and listen.

Dhaller's post #26 suggests an openness to a much broader range of artistic possibilities than many of us older participants were expecting to encounter almost half a century after leaving college/university.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Gurdon said:


> I looked up Alice Munro. It's not at all hard to see the possibility of literary merit in her life and the regularity and accessibility of her literary production. Many might find it harder to accept Dylan, who has made a living as a popular singer, as a major poet. I accept the judgment of others whom I know that he is.
> 
> I confess that I lack critical acuity when it comes to literature. I know how to read critically and can discern the structural and stylistic devices that enable one to appreciate and, if you will, judge works. My desire is to promote an interesting discussion among people who know and care about the arts and from whom I/we can learn how to look, read and listen.
> 
> ...


In the few years since I discovered her, Alice Munro has become my co-equal favorite author of fiction, a place formerly held by John Updike alone. Her simple stories are enormously human, profound and possessed of great insight into the human condition.

While I grudgingly acknowledge Dylan's facility with words, I didn't care for him in 1965, and still don't today. I've always found him to be something of a poseur and self-aggrandized invention, hollow at the center, as contrasted to someone such as Pete Seeger, for example.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Flanderian said:


> In the few years since I discovered her, Alice Munro has become my co-equal favorite author of fiction, a place formerly held by John Updike alone. Her simple stories are enormously human, profound and possessed of great insight into the human condition.
> 
> While I grudgingly acknowledge Dylan's facility with words, I didn't care for him in 1965, and still don't today. I've always found him to be something of a poseur and self-aggrandized invention, hollow at the center, as contrasted to someone such as Pete Seeger, for example.


I agree with your take on both Dillon and Pete Seeger. Moreover, Seeger is an accomplished musician and composer. I don't own any Dylan recordings, but have many Seeger albums, including vinyl and CD releases by the Smithsonian, of several of his Folkways albums. Nonetheless, I think the attribution of poetic excellence to Dylan has merit. I do like the poetry of Dylan Thomas, while acknowledging it to be largely beyond my apprehension, even after much attention to it.

Gurdon

Dylan (Bob) has not been a particularly good or nice person. The opposite is true of Pete Seeger. At the time of his death, it was pointed out, however, by some forum participants, that Seeger had been a CP member and propagandist. The instrumental side of the 10" LP goofing Off Suite is remarkable, containing a take on the Chorale from Beethoven's 9th played on the banjo and accompanied by a whistled passage, and a soothing version of Jesu Joy of Man's Desire. Look into the Folkways album Indian Summer, available on CD from the Smithsonian. Try to get a copy of the liner notes. Seeger's guitar piece, "Living in the Country" is, in my non-musician's view, a minor classic. The version played on the 12 string, including a whistled interlude, still sends chills down my spine. But, then so does Malcolm Arnold's Guitar Concerto.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

Flanderian said:


> ... I've always found him to be something of a poseur and self-aggrandized invention, ...


I think you're describing the standard profile of the Nobel Prize winner!

Even at it's most pure, the Nobel Prizes (the real ones, not the Peace Prize) are heavily political.

Don't even get me started on poor Rosalind Franklin!

DH


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

On Dylan as a prize-winner:

He would never have been on my radar for the prize, but it's fair to say that, literarily, he carries on the traditions of Homer and Sappho, albeit in very modern guise. That is, works better recited than read.

I think, mostly, folks have a hard time disentangling him from his voice.

And of course, let's consider that the prize may be shared by his namesake, by proxy if not in spirit!

DH


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Dhaller said:


> I think you're describing the standard profile of the Nobel Prize winner!
> 
> Even at it's most pure, the Nobel Prizes (the real ones, not the Peace Prize) are heavily political.
> 
> ...


I would never dispute this as typical.

If the recipient isn't necessarily political themselves, it still seems likely that a great deal of lobbying on behalf of influential friends and fans weighs heavily in the process. Still, at least in the past, there have been some surprisingly deserving recipients among the prize for literature. But it's unusual that a low-key writer like Alice Munro would make the cut. Since she is nearing the end of a life in which she's created a substantial body of marvelous work I suspect she's garnered enough influential fans, not least of all literary critics, to bring her to the attention of the committee and lobby for her selection.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> In the few years since I discovered her, Alice Munro has become my co-equal favorite author of fiction, a place formerly held by John Updike alone. Her simple stories are enormously human, profound and possessed of great insight into the human condition.
> 
> While I grudgingly acknowledge Dylan's facility with words, I didn't care for him in 1965, and still don't today. I've always found him to be something of a poseur and self-aggrandized invention, hollow at the center, as contrasted to someone such as Pete Seeger, for example.


Amusingly, amongst all the foul mouthed punk rock and heavy metal records I played on my stereo as a youngster it was Bob Dylan my parents detested the most. Sure, he's a big liar but his ability to evoke an image, turn a phrase, and rhyme a couplet absolve that completely .

I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways

I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests

I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans

I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard.


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