# Jermyn Street Shirtmakers for Dummies and Sociopaths



## Thecountofcount (Feb 22, 2008)

Turnbull & Asser: Top of it all. Most expensive of them. True 1960ies Swinging London/Bond feeling. Eye-watering colours. Collectibles, as ebay prices show. Worn by aristocrats, plutocrats and show-biz people; by people who don´t care what others think or who DO. Buy the 3 sleeve-button variety, unique to T&A.

New & Lingwood: Don´t know about their shirts. Never bought one. No distinctive style. Buy the skull-and-bones socks, that´s enough and what they do best. Worn by Eaton pupils.

Harvie & Hudson: True 1960ies English Socialism feeling, with neon-lit shops and prescription-glasses salesmen. Worn by older gentlemen (banking, law) who would not be seen dead in "trendy" clothing. Thus they offer cream shirts, pleated denim trousers, washed cotton sports jackets and the like. Ah, and terry robes. Buy the multi-stripes shirts, more usable in daylight situations than T&A, but still retro-funky in an inherited-from-nutty-Uncle-way. 

Hilditch & Key: Understated, italianate elegance. No fancy caleidoscope patterns here. Very Continental European style. A bit boring maybe. Worn by Geneva-based private bankers (Pictet and the like). Buy the 12 white cotton hankiers offer.

T.M. Lewin: We are entering middle-class territory here. Nevertheless unbeatable due to huge variety of sizes, collars and sleevelengths. Ideal for entry-level management consultants/law firm juniors. Also sometimes have English staples such as covert coats for junior associate money. Not the real deal though. Shops frequented by questionable people. Best buy via internet when noone can see you.

Charles Thrywhyhyitttt: Lower-middle class territory. In the 1970, a CT buyer would have driven a Rover. Or a Reliant. Worn by Nigel from Accounts who wants to be Account Payables team leader and is doing his evening school degree. Cardboard collars. Boxy suits. Buy: nothing.

Hawkins and Curtis Blow: Dunno. Bet half of them customers drive a Japanese boy racer and aspire to Boxsxsxster and/or Elise ownership. Ghastly colours, untraditional stripes and patterns. Spikey hair mandatory, and also Kenneth Coles elephant shoes. Buy: NOTHING. There is an upmarket branch of Harris and Cuntis Blow called "Thomas Punk" a few blocks up the road. Same tat, more expensive. Nice salmon/black cardbord boxes though. Buy: nothing, but ask for a few free of said boxes.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Amusing, and with at least a kernel of truth.

I think that Hilditch & Key are the equal of T&A - they certainly do more pattern matching and other little tailoring tricks. 

Most of them also have subtly distinct collar shapes. Without seeing the label, an experienced customer could easily tell a H&K, T&A, and H&H apart based solely on the collar leaves.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

*T&A is the only shirtmaker*



Thecountofcount said:


> *T.M. Lewin: We are entering middle-class territory here. * Ideal for entry-level management consultants/law firm juniors.
> 
> *Charles Thrywhyhyitttt: Lower-middle class territory.* In the 1970, a CT buyer would have driven a Rover. Worn by Nigel from Accounts who wants to be Account Payables team leader and is doing his evening school degree.


I cannot comment on the 70's because I was born in the 80's, but I do not agree with the analysis of TM Lewin and CT. TM Lewin is low-end, probably on par with CT.


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

ToryBoy said:


> I cannot comment on the 70's because I was born in the 80's, but I do not agree with the analysis of TM Lewin and CT. TM Lewin is low-end, probably on par with CT.


This has really been hashed and rehashed a million times, but I have to throw in my .02 and say that having purchased from both, TML is superior, and noticeably so. The collars alone will make the difference, but it doesn't just end there.

The quality of the fabric is better (especially so if you opt for the TML "luxury" fabrics), the fit is better, and the prices are even better sometimes, depending on where you may be ordering from.

The OP is correct and astute. I'm a junior associate and I buy TML. I probably will buy more from TML before I graduate to the heavy hitters. I cannot say the same for CT.


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

Oh, I may have to get fatter, too -- the top names listed there don't seem to carry my size (14.5x33) very often, or ever.


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## EmbraBhoy (Sep 15, 2008)

+1 on TML being better than CT. The ties don't look so good though.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Thecountofcount said:


> Turnbull & Asser: Top of it all. Most expensive of them. True 1960ies Swinging London/Bond feeling. Eye-watering colours. Collectibles, as ebay prices show. Worn by aristocrats, plutocrats and show-biz people; by people who don´t care what others think or who DO. Buy the 3 sleeve-button variety, unique to T&A.
> 
> New & Lingwood: Don´t know about their shirts. Never bought one. No distinctive style. Buy the skull-and-bones socks, that´s enough and what they do best. Worn by Eaton pupils.
> 
> ...


They were not around in the 70s. IIRC, CT are a 90s brand.

*W_B*


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*You forgot the T&A customers that were British spies ....*

their storefront is prominately diasplayed in the movie "The Fourth Man." I think Guy Burgess was a T&A customer, and missed them terribly while living in Moscow.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

dfloyd said:


> their storefront is prominately diasplayed in the movie "The Fourth Man." I think Guy Burgess was a T&A customer, and missed them terribly while living in Moscow.


In the "Cambridge Spies" BBC miniseries of a couple years back, you can see several scenes shot both in front of and inside T&A's shop.

In a mordantly amusing sequence, Guy Burgess (Tom Hollander) goes in and buys all the school, college, and club ties to which he can lay claim (Trinity College Cambridge, Eton College, others I can't recall) and then parades out of the store wearing them all at the same time, after which he proceeds (in true Guy Burgess fashion) to get very drunk.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346223/


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

whistle_blower71 said:


> They were not around in the 70s. IIRC, CT are a 90s brand.
> 
> *W_B*


It's true CT was not around in the 1970's. The company was originally a mail order catalog founded in 1986 and opened their first Jermyn Street outpost in 1997 where in turn they added the street designation to their name.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

svb said:


> the fit is better


I often see this comment posted. What can "better fit" mean on a forum? A particular fit will be better for one person, but worse for another! Unless you're talking about some truly misshapen garment that would fit nobody, there is no such thing as a _generally_ better fit - fit is individual.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

What about the Thin Red Line? I can only imagine. . .


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

CuffDaddy said:


> I often see this comment posted. What can "better fit" mean on a forum? A particular fit will be better for one person, but worse for another! Unless you're talking about some truly misshapen garment that would fit nobody, there is no such thing as a _generally_ better fit - fit is individual.


Ok, I'll be more specific...

the TML slim fit is a more honest slim fit than CT.


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

Thecountofcount said:


> Hawkins and Curtis Blow: Dunno. Bet half of them customers drive a Japanese boy racer and aspire to Boxsxsxster and/or Elise ownership. Ghastly colours, untraditional stripes and patterns. Spikey hair mandatory, and also Kenneth Coles elephant shoes. Buy: NOTHING.


It's hard for anyone to take a criticism seriously if it doesn't even recount the name of the business correctly: it's _Hawes _and Curtis. I agree they have some nasty colored shirts, but they are the only retailers of _high _cutaway collar shirts, a style otherwise only found in the Prince of Kent's closet or in a Vacca suit, so they certainly deserve respect for that. The plain white 'York slim fit' is my favorite shirt.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

svb said:


> Ok, I'll be more specific...
> 
> the TML slim fit is a more honest slim fit than CT.


Again, who is the arbiter of what "honest slim" is?

Wouldn't a more accurate and more informative comment be that TML's slim fit shirts are cut more smaller in X or Y area than CT slim fit shirts?


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## cheeky (Aug 21, 2009)

CuffDaddy said:


> Again, who is the arbiter of what "honest slim" is?
> 
> Wouldn't a more accurate and more informative comment be that TML's slim fit shirts are cut more smaller in X or Y area than CT slim fit shirts?


On my trip down to London last weekend, I popped into the Charles Tyrwhitt store as I was interested to try on their black label shirts as their catalogue states they are their most tailored fit. However, I found them to be almost identical to their slim fit shirts. However, they have just released some "tailored fit" shirts which are more fitted than their slim fit shirts. I have a slim build and prefer a more tapered fit shirt. I do not understand why the CT slim fit shirts have pleats at the back. There is far too much material in IMO.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

cheeky said:


> On my trip down to London last weekend, I popped into the Charles Tyrwhitt store as I was interested to try on their black label shirts as their catalogue states they are their most tailored fit. However, I found them to be almost identical to their slim fit shirts. However, they have just released some "tailored fit" shirts which are more fitted than their slim fit shirts. I have a slim build and prefer a more tapered fit shirt. I do not understand why the CT slim fit shirts have pleats at the back. There is far too much material in IMO.


Now there's an informative post. Any reader can get use the details you provided to inform a decision about whether CT's "slim fit" shirts are of interest to them. You, apparently, do not like pleats at the back. Yet there are surely some men who want a "slim fit" in the lower abdomen, but desire/require pleats at the yoke to accomodate their shoulders and/or routine postures. One man's trash is another man's gold when it comes to dimensions of a shirt. Thanks for the contribution to the collective knowledge of the forum!


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## Matthew Schitck (May 12, 2009)

Thecountofcount said:


> New & Lingwood: Don´t know about their shirts. Never bought one. No distinctive style. Buy the skull-and-bones socks, that´s enough and what they do best. Worn by Eaton pupils.


While I didn't go to Eton I do own a few New and Lingwood shirts. They are very nice.
Mind you I also own a few plain white shirts from Hawes and Curtis, perfectly acceptable cheap work-a-day shirts in my opinion.
Does that make make me a Dummy, sociopath or both?


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Some other Jermyn St (and just off) shirtmakers/shops
Emmett Shirts - no idea
Duchamp - loud, loud, loud
Emma Willis - nice shirts, lovely ladies, pricey
Budd - classic old school


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## Guyute82 (Nov 20, 2009)

Which slim fit shirts are slimmer - both in the armholes, and around the chest and wait -- CT or TM Lewin? I have a few CT slim fits and they are actually not that slim, especially the sleeves.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*It's about time for Duchamp ....*

to have their annual sale. It starts, I think, on Boxing Day. Some of their shirts are indeed loud, but many are not. In any event, they make a high-quality RTW shirt. When you can get their shirts and ties dor 50% off, it's a pretty good deal.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

*Duchamp*



dfloyd said:


> Some of their shirts are indeed loud, but many are not. In any event, they make a high-quality RTW shirt. When you can get their shirts and ties dor 50% off, it's a pretty good deal.


They have enough conservative options for a good work-shirt rotation, good savings during the sales from their stores or department store.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

Despite not being a Duchamp fan myself I thought I should post about the fact that their Fenchurch Street sale shop is apparently closing down and so has even bigger reductions according to the window display! Hope that might be of interest to some of you and here are the shop's contact details:

148 Fenchurch Street, London EC3M 6BL
t +44 (0)20 7929 0009


Chris.


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## tigerboy (Aug 28, 2009)

Always an interesting chat this provided one is not too dogmatic. After all one mans meat is anothers poison.

I bought my first H&Hs recently and like the vividness, the slightly eccentric English gaudiness if you see what I mean.

TML's "luxury" plain white or blue slim fits are excellent value on sale and perfectly acceptable. I have and have had many. 

I have a couple of beautiful, truly beautiful Coles which I love and a couple of T&As as well which to be honest don't do it for me as the Coles do.

I'm not really able to comment on the rest since I don't and haven't worn them.


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## NorthShorer (Apr 17, 2009)

*Harvie and Hudson*

At the risk of sounding too "young fogeyish" may I speak in favour of Harvie and Hudson's coats. At the *** end of their summer sale in September I bought a lovely linen coat and a lovely travel coat. The linen coat was smart enough for several dinners in St James clubland while on holidays in the UK and the the travel coat is perfect for when you are out and about and want to keep the wallet safe or there's a bit of a chill.

I prefer TM Lewin shirts because I love their 34.5 inch sleeve length which is perfect for me. 34 too short and doesn't show cuff, 35 looks like I'm wearing the shirts of someone much bigger. Please don't change TML!

I have some Duchamp ties which are fun for cocktail parties with media types but never wear otherwise.

Tyrwhitt looks a bit "I'm a Foxtons estate agent" for my liking.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Emma Willis has sale shirts at £50 on the left, mostly last summer but some non-seasonal.


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

culverwood said:


> Emma Willis has sale shirts at £50 on the left, mostly last summer but some non-seasonal.


You will then have wasted £50.


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## wgb (Mar 2, 2007)

I think the OP missed Coles -- I have some truly nice shirts from them. The only thing I have noticed is that the collars run a bit small -- I take 16.5 in Coles, but 16 in BB, Tyrwhitt, JS Banks, LL Bean, and Lands End, none of which compare to Coles quality wise, but the other brands' non-iron shirts are a godsend for business casual. YMMV.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

Coles haven't been on Jermyn Street for some years now so I suspect that's why they were left off of the list.

Chris.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

archduke said:


> You will then have wasted £50.


Why so?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> 
> Coles haven't been on Jermyn Street for some years now so I suspect that's why they were left off of the list.
> 
> Chris.


Coles, or what's left of it, is now trading as "W.H. Taylor Shirtmakers."

The shirts are still being made at the Glenaden facility in Ulster, I believe.

https://www.whtshirtmakers.com/about.aspx


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

culverwood said:


> Why so?


Thin, undistinguished cloth; collar went out of shape quickly; shirt wore out quicker than normal, but not because of the wear; buttons not special.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Coles, or what's left of it, is now trading as "W.H. Taylor Shirtmakers."
> 
> The shirts are still being made at the Glenaden facility in Ulster, I believe.
> 
> https://www.whtshirtmakers.com/about.aspx


Glenaden went into liquidation recently I believe. There are no shirtmaking factories left in Derry.


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## Graft (Apr 7, 2008)

How does the fit of a HK or Lingwood shirt compare to a regular Brooks Brothers shirt. Are they cut similarly?

I'm looking for something slimmer than a BB shirt but not necessarily a slim fit shirt.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

RJman said:


> Glenaden went into liquidation recently I believe. There are no shirtmaking factories left in Derry.


That's a shame.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Graft said:


> How does the fit of a HK or Lingwood shirt compare to a regular Brooks Brothers shirt. Are they cut similarly?
> 
> I'm looking for something slimmer than a BB shirt but not necessarily a slim fit shirt.


I don't own any New & Lingwood shirts b/c they don't make sleeves long enough (I'm an 18/36, and N&L seems to quit at about a 34 sleeve unless you can afford their bespoke rates, which I cannot).

I do own a bunch of H&Ks, and I can tell you that they aren't slimfit shirts by any stretch. They may not be quite as capacious as the truly sail-like BB Traditional cut shirts, but they are definitely proud members of the "gentleman's cut/'ready-for-a-big-lunch'" shirtwear family.

Allegedly H&K now does some limited RTW offerings in a slimmer fit, but these have never cropped up online are are TTBOMK available in-store only.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> definitely proud members of the "gentleman's cut/'ready-for-a-big-lunch'" shirtwear family.


ROFLMAO!!! "Ready-for-a-big-lunch"!!! I don't know why, but I find that absolutely hysterical.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

CuffDaddy said:


> ROFLMAO!!! "Ready-for-a-big-lunch"!!! I don't know why, but I find that absolutely hysterical.


That's as positive a spin as I can put on it...a "prosperous" cut.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

CuffDaddy said:


> ROFLMAO!!! "Ready-for-a-big-lunch"!!! I don't know why, but I find that absolutely hysterical.


You are perhaps lucky to be so easily entertained, _mein Freund._


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## Graft (Apr 7, 2008)

Thanks PJC.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Z...Z...Z...Z...z...z...z...z...


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## Shirted (Feb 1, 2010)

*Order in the USA*

Been following this forum for a couple of months now, as I have been overhauling my wardrobe. I've learned a lot here on this site, and been pretty happy with the shirts I've purchased recently, both from the US and UK. Well, some more than others. They've generally been from the low-to-middle range shirt makers listed here.

I wanted to try a shirt or two from Harvie & Hudson. I like the patterns in their slim fit line quite a bit, but they only make them in double-cuff. I rarely wear tie or suit jacket, and only have a few double-cuffs. I inquired, but was told that they did not sell enough slim button-cuffs, and so discontinued them. I appreciated the response.

My reason for finally posting here is frustration buying in the US from one particular company. I very much like the styles presented at the Emmett Shirts website; they have a nice collection of slim fit button-cuffs, many on sale, and their listed measurements seem ideal for me. When you don't wear a tie often, it's nice to have a variety of colors and patterns.

But unlike several of the other UK online shops, it _hurts_ to order across the Atlantic from Emmett. It's the triple hit of having the most expensive shipping cost ($25 for the 1st shirt in an order, plus another $9 for each additional in an order), a questionable claim to have removed the VAT, and most annoyingly, and a site that forces you to buy in $$$, using their horrible exchange rate rather than my credit card's.

Here's an example: a 47.50 pound shirt (a fine price). When you put in a UK address the total comes to 47.50 pounds plus shipping, and they state that the 47.50 includes VAT.

Try to order that shirt for the US, and the shirt costs $89 (no, that does not include the $25 shipping), which they state does not include VAT. $89 is about 53 pounds using my credit card's exchange rate.

Those numbers don't add up. So VAT-included is 47.50, but without is 53? And that's before the highest shipping charges on the block.

C'mon Emmett, let us pay in pounds just like all the other shops, and take off the VAT.

Sorry for the rant. The reason I'm posting here is to see if anyone else had a similar issue, or if perhaps I'm just making a simple mistake.

I asked about the store via email, but received no response. I think its just an e-commerce issue. Again, those shirts look lovely.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

I get endless emails from Emmett, but have never bought one of their shirts.

Frankly, many of their shirts look a little too peacocky for me, and their selection is usually pretty thin.

Reading about how they gouge on postage and won't deduct VAT makes me even less interested in their wares.


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## Twinspeare (May 3, 2007)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Allegedly H&K now does some limited RTW offerings in a slimmer fit, but these have never cropped up online are are TTBOMK available in-store only.


I would immediately go back to H&K if I could get their slim-fit shirts on sale. I doubt they're worth the full price of almost 80 pounds but they're the only English RTW shirtmaker with a non-fused shirt collar which is wonderfully soft.


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## Des Esseintes (Aug 16, 2005)

Thecountofcount said:


> New & Lingwood: Don´t know about their shirts. Never bought one. No distinctive style. Buy the skull-and-bones socks, that´s enough and what they do best. Worn by Eaton pupils.
> 
> T.M. Lewin: We are entering middle-class territory here. Nevertheless unbeatable due to huge variety of sizes, collars and sleeve lengths. ...Shops frequented by questionable people. Best buy via internet when noone can see you....
> 
> Charles Thrywhyhyitttt: Lower-middle class territory. In the 1970, a CT buyer would have driven a Rover. Or a Reliant. Worn by Nigel from Accounts who wants to be Account Payables team leader and is doing his evening school degree. Cardboard collars. Boxy suits. Buy: nothing.


What do we learn from this remarkable post? Pretentious Eurotrash gits unable to spell Eton correctly are well advised to refrain from lashing out condescendingly at the _hoi polloi_ frequenting the wrong shirtmakers. Otherwise their stiff upper lip parody might easily be considered more ridiculous than their plebeian victims' misconduct in purchasing dreaded middle-class shirts.
dE


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Des Esseintes said:


> What do we learn from this remarkable post? Pretentious Eurotrash gits unable to spell Eton correctly are well advised to refrain from lashing out condescendingly at the _hoi polloi_ frequenting the wrong shirtmakers. Otherwise their stiff upper lip parody might easily be considered more ridiculous than their plebeian victims' misconduct in purchasing dreaded middle-class shirts.
> dE


Well put, mate!

Also, if Jermyn Street was the last street in London, I still wouldn't buy a shirt there. I'm not a rich man. And a shirt is just a shirt. I don't need or want to pay that much for shirts. I'm happy with the shirts I buy in high street shops.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Des Esseintes said:


> What do we learn from this remarkable post? Pretentious Eurotrash gits unable to spell Eton correctly are well advised to refrain from lashing out condescendingly at the _hoi polloi_ frequenting the wrong shirtmakers. Otherwise their stiff upper lip parody might easily be considered more ridiculous than their plebeian victims' misconduct in purchasing dreaded middle-class shirts.
> dE


 The simple and sad pragmatic reality of Jermyn Street is that the astronomic rents have so skewed the economic viability of its shirts as to put them all in the class of mass-produced. When such a high percentage of the selling price of each shirt must be allocated to overhead, the maker is faced with two equally unattractive choices: Either raise the price of the merchandise or lower costs in other areas, to wit, the costs of production. Jermyn Street shirtmakers have had to do both. Thus a more economically produced product is sold for a higher price.



Earl of Ormonde said:


> ... And a shirt is just a shirt. ...


 I see you and I have a basic disagreement on the facts of life.


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## hsw (Dec 23, 2009)

Upscale commerce is a two-way dynamic among sophisticated sellers and consumers....truly high-quality bespoke shirtmakers, suitmakers, etc can easily pass along costs to (and capture a fair profit from) a deep base of repeat, recession-immune, fashion averse customers if customers feel they are gaining value from the garments and the sales process

Value in form of a convenient, pleasing storefront nr customers' offices in MidtownManhattan (or nr upscale hotels in Paris, as in case of Charvet); ample selection of fabrics; excellent fit and build quality...and durability of garments vs cleaning, travel, etc

The nature of any tailors' repeat buyer base speaks far more loudly than fancy addresses or empty brands...even the allegedly finest bespoke suits/shirts/shoes, etc are trivially cheap vs costs of NetJets flts or interesting old Bordeaux or many other rapidly consumable aspects of a high-end lifestyle

But many wealthy guys have ADD and limited interest in complex processes to buy clothes...and many famed tailors are awful marketers...and have lackluster (or downright mockable) quality to compensate for their inefficient marketing vs customers' limited attention span and high opportunity costs


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## Shirted (Feb 1, 2010)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Frankly, many of their shirts look a little too peacocky for me, and their selection is usually pretty thin.


I can understand that, but I admit to being drawn to the interesting and colorful patterns. To a limit.

Speaking of interesting patterns, anybody know what's going on here:

There a few check patterns in there that I really like (and some awful ones), and they're very cheap. For the description, it sounds like the cut would be huge, but couldn't I have it altered? Or will a check pattern look strange tailored down after the fact?

Anyone have experience with those shirts?


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## richardUK (Nov 29, 2009)

CuffDaddy said:


> I often see this comment posted. What can "better fit" mean on a forum? A particular fit will be better for one person, but worse for another! Unless you're talking about some truly misshapen garment that would fit nobody, there is no such thing as a _generally_ better fit - fit is individual.


which is why it is pointless 'ranking' different brands based on how well they fit, unless youve ordered the same shirt from both at the same time

i have found that the CT shirts (slim fit) fit me better than the TML shirts, & they are much more likely to have my size in stock
i also find the CT tie selection a lot better than those offered by TML

as for CT being 'lower middle class', does that matter if the item makes you look better than the majority of workers out there?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

hsw said:


> Upscale commerce is a two-way dynamic among sophisticated sellers and consumers....truly high-quality bespoke shirtmakers, suitmakers, etc can easily pass along costs to (and capture a fair profit from) a deep base of repeat, recession-immune, fashion averse customers if customers feel they are gaining value from the garments and the sales process
> 
> Value in form of a convenient, pleasing storefront nr customers' offices in MidtownManhattan (or nr upscale hotels in Paris, as in case of Charvet); ample selection of fabrics; excellent fit and build quality...and durability of garments vs cleaning, travel, etc
> 
> ...


 HSW: I concur completely with your assessment. However, you must have missed that this thread is about Jermyn Street.


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## ilikeyourstyle (Apr 24, 2007)

I guess I'll be forever resigned to the lower-middle class because I love how Tyrwhitt shirts work for me. For less than $50 a shirt I can buy something that fits me well, lasts a long time, and looks much better than the junk sold in most Canadian stores.

If those other shirt brands cost less, I would probably switch to them, but value matters to me.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Des Esseintes said:


> What do we learn from this remarkable post? Pretentious Eurotrash gits unable to spell Eton correctly are well advised to refrain from lashing out condescendingly at the _hoi polloi_ frequenting the wrong shirtmakers. Otherwise their stiff upper lip parody might easily be considered more ridiculous than their plebeian victims' misconduct in purchasing dreaded middle-class shirts.
> dE


Ruthless :icon_smile_big:


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## Shirted (Feb 1, 2010)

Well, I decided to order a couple of those "bespoke fabric sample" shirts from Savile Row Co. (Found a free shipping code through google). May need to have it cut down to size, but I like all the fabric choices. We'll see what the quality is like.


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## tigerboy (Aug 28, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Well put, mate!
> 
> Also, if Jermyn Street was the last street in London, I still wouldn't buy a shirt there. I'm not a rich man. And a shirt is just a shirt. I don't need or want to pay that much for shirts. I'm happy with the shirts I buy in high street shops.[/quote
> 
> ...


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

I just ordered an armful of CTs for a bit less than $40 per shirt.

Have been wearing CTs for about a dozen years now; they hold up well to laundering (to include commercial starching and pressing) and generally look quite smart; draw compliments.

My CTs are w/out a doubt a far sight better than anything I could get at a dept store this side of the T&A section at Needless Markups (if indeed N-M still has one--haven't been in one in a while).

I do wish CT would bring back the cutaway collar in a classic fit, however.


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## tigerboy (Aug 28, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> I just ordered an armful of CTs for a bit less than $40 per shirt.
> 
> Have been wearing CTs for about a dozen years now; they hold up well to laundering (to include commercial starching and pressing) and generally look quite smart; draw compliments.
> 
> ...


This is essentialy the point I ws making to Earl of Ormonde. Jermyn St. does not have to mean hyper expensive. You use CT for your rotation of work shirts. I use Lewin. I have three new H+H which are excellent at what I suppose is about $50 dollars each and which I advise you to try. None of those are remotely expensiveand alll to a greater or lesser extent are a pleasure to wear.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Des Esseintes said:


> What do we learn from this remarkable post? Pretentious Eurotrash gits unable to spell Eton correctly are well advised to refrain from lashing out condescendingly at the _hoi polloi_ frequenting the wrong shirtmakers. Otherwise their stiff upper lip parody might easily be considered more ridiculous than their plebeian victims' misconduct in purchasing dreaded middle-class shirts.
> dE


We also learned that some are unable to distinguish parody and tongue-in-cheek commentary from genuine spelling mistakes.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

tigerboy said:


> This is essentialy the point I ws making to Earl of Ormonde. Jermyn St. does not have to mean hyper expensive. You use CT for your rotation of work shirts. I use Lewin. I have three new H+H which are excellent at what I suppose is about $50 dollars each and which I advise you to try. None of those are remotely expensiveand alll to a greater or lesser extent are a pleasure to wear.


I'm familiar with all three brands and have posted on each, but thanks all the same for your advice.


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## milanese (Jan 27, 2010)

Men, men, men, you're a bit too addicted to slim fits... 
Try to think to me a 19-19 1/2 necked man (with chest and waist around 137 centimetres both) that must experience some problems everytime he tries to buy a GOOD shirt. 
This size seems to be produced only by H&H, TML and the deprecated CT. Obviously, in classic fit.
And you are worrying about slim fits not enough slim... 
Men, the actual problems in clothing are others... You're "normal" sized men are lucky men, don't forgive it.   

Obviously I have a lot of Italian shops which has my size in stock, but I would like to buy at least one English Jermyn street shirt in my life...


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

svb said:


> Ok, I'll be more specific...
> 
> the TML slim fit is a more honest slim fit than CT.


There are a number of posts claiming that so and so's slim fit shirts are not slim enough. Slim fit? Ha! I need slimmer still. I don't know but it smacks of boasting to me or most shirt buyers on AAAC are either very very skinny or very very young.

I am in no way fat but hate slim fit. I do not want my shirts to be clinging to my body. For that I value companies that do not concentrate on slim fit.

I do not agree at all that Lewin is better than CT. Their shirt tails are shorter and their shirt side seams are not gussetted. I do not agree that their fabrics are better either. For me it is the opposite way round - CT are better quality than Lewin - even though, I think, TM Lewin have been around for longer. I do think CT quality nosedived about 4-5 years ago, but it seems back up now, not to where it was 10 years ago but at least to a reasonable level.

Having said that I go to Harvie and Hudson now for my suit shirts and use CT for my casual shirts.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Leather man said:


> There are a number of posts claiming that so and so's slim fit shirts are not slim enough. Slim fit? Ha! I need slimmer still. I don't know but it smacks of boasting to me or most shirt buyers on AAAC are either very very skinny or very very young.


I've noticed that too. Obviously, there's a lot of self-selection going on: Younger and/or much thinner guys (there's probably a fair amount of overlap between those two sets) seem to wind up here (via search engines?) and vent/inquire about their ongoing quest to find OTR shirts cut slim enough to fit their rail-like frames.

It's natural and understandable for them to do this, but you have to take things with a grain of salt and recognize that you're not hearing from a random cross-section of the male shirt-buying public.

I have some sympathy for them: I am not young, and I am hardly thin, but I nonetheless find BB slimfits kind of roomy, and can even get into a CT slimfit without that much trouble (TML slims I have yet to try; they've just introduced them in my 18 neck size). So I can see where a guy who is truly lean would have issues with such shirts being still on the big side for him.


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## Shirted (Feb 1, 2010)

Well, again, I'm new here.

This is my impression as novice, who has mostly had American shirts: These labels seem wrong. The "classic" cuts seem to be proportioned to a very large body, a large gut in particular. Like Alfred Hitchcock's profile. I understand why they do that; they want their shirts to be wearable by as many people as possible. But even if its been around 100 years, it seems like a lazy way to do things. We've been able to buy $50 Levis in a variety of cuts for decades, so I don't see why we shouldn't have the options in nice shirts.

Seems to me that if you took the average size 40 year old male, that the "slim" cuts would be the best fit most often. I'm not talking about some super-skinny cut, but the slim lines as defined by Paul Fredrick or Lewin. Seems to me like that should be the baseline, and the classic or wide fit should be the alternative fit. I am not skinny. I have no six pack. But if I wear a classic fit shirt, I could wear my backpack underneath it any stretching.

So I think _some_ of the complaining is from super thin hipsters who want the shirt to be spandex tight. Good for them, but I can see where it would get annoying to hear every day. But sometimes I think the complaining is about companies who say "slim" or "trim" but don't really want to get rid of the one-size-fits-all model.


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## Squiffy (Jan 22, 2010)

PJC in NoVa said:


> I've noticed that too. Obviously, there's a lot of self-selection going on: Younger and/or much thinner guys (there's probably a fair amount of overlap between those two sets) seem to wind up here (via search engines?) and vent/inquire about their ongoing quest to find OTR shirts cut slim enough to fit their rail-like frames.


Yes, that's exactly it, and how I wound up on here. I'm slim absolutely and relative to my peers (a consequence of competitive endurance sport!) and there simply isn't a high-street shop that stocks anything that fits. Most of my friends don't have that problem and can fit into anything, thus have never bothered looking further afield.

Finally TML slim-fit came up pretty good but still slightly tent-like and H&H slim-fit is getting close to great. The quest is almost over, and I suspect the next step will be bespoke (when I've the cash...!).


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

tigerboy said:


> Earl of Ormonde said:
> 
> 
> > Well put, mate!
> ...


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## Nick (Jan 16, 2005)

Des Esseintes, you have been in Brussels too long. Escape quickly before your sense of humour is gone forever.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Nick said:


> Des Esseintes, you have been in Brussels too long. Escape quickly before your sense of humour is gone forever.


Nick, is that euphemistic roundabout way of telling him he's a snob? :icon_smile_wink:


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## macabee (Mar 13, 2010)

*Jermyn St Shirts*

Whilst Jermyn St is [or was] the home of shirt making in the UK, I suspect that quite a few of the shirts sold in Jermyn St, are made in China, or other parts of Asia, I know that TML shirts are produced in China.

Considering that when you peruse a TML catalogue, I think I get one every couple of weeks! you can purchase 'sale' shirts at around £20, there is no way that quality shirts could be made in Jermyn St or the UK, for anywhere that price.

I used to go to TML in the sales, in the '80's and by shirts from TML for £20-35, at the same time you could wander over to Hilditch & Key, Harvie & Hudson or Hawes & Curtiss and buy some for a similar price.

Some of the best shirts I have ever owned were sold by Rendells of Bishopsgate in the City of London, they lasted for years.

I now have some shirts in pinpoint oxford from Lands End, they are probably the best value shirts I have owned for a long time, they are comfortable and wear well.

Regards

BJK


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## redarmy3 (Nov 27, 2009)

Squiffy said:


> Yes, that's exactly it, and how I wound up on here. I'm slim absolutely and relative to my peers (a consequence of competitive endurance sport!) and there simply isn't a high-street shop that stocks anything that fits. Most of my friends don't have that problem and can fit into anything, thus have never bothered looking further afield.
> 
> Finally TML slim-fit came up pretty good but still slightly tent-like and H&H slim-fit is getting close to great. The quest is almost over, and I suspect the next step will be bespoke (when I've the cash...!).


That is also how I've ended up on this board - I guess I would fall into the slim category only because I have lots of lean muscle and an 8 inch drop. Finding shirts that fit in the neck (16 or 16 1/2), shoulders, and waist just does not happen in America.

I agree that slim fit shirts should be the baseline on shirts with a wide and narrow desgination. I have many friends who are not nearly as fit but still have slim cut shirts that fit like tents.


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## turban1 (May 29, 2008)

*at random*

1. I wonder if any shirt ought be called a Jermyn Street shirt simply because it is sold on Jermyn St? Yes, for T&A, H&K, H&H, Budd nearby and a few others, but the mass-marketers bent on becoming the Wal-Marts of English shirtsellers?

2. For all of you hell-bent on never spending more than fifty bucks for a shirt, stay there. Danger lurks beyond that price. About a decade ago when i bought my first H&K shirt, the others paled into insignificance. I am unsure of their quality of late, which friends say has declined. My old ones, made in Scotland, are sources of delight.

3. whilst i've not ventured into the far costlier world of bespoke shirts, a young chap in my club has what i think are the most lovely shirts on this planet, handmade of diaphanous, snowy white, sea-island cotton by sean o'flynn in sackville street. slightly full in the sleeves and tapered into an elegant double cuff, they deserve to be painted in oils, even if my friend scarcely warrants portraiture in any other regard.


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## noss (Apr 1, 2007)

*Rover!*



Thecountofcount said:


> Charles Thrywhyhyitttt: Lower-middle class territory. In the 1970, a CT buyer would have driven a Rover. Or a Reliant. Worn by Nigel from Accounts who wants to be Account Payables team leader and is doing his evening school degree. Cardboard collars. Boxy suits. Buy: nothing.
> 
> Along the right lines, but in 1970 a Rover would have been well beyond the reach of the junior management. They would have been driving Ford Cortinas. The Rover P6 was a decent car. The P5 was also still in production and at the time was enjoyed by several Prime Ministers.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Any comment on H&H? Their appealingly low-key website (and absence of loud ginghams, IIRC). makes me think they're still the real thing.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Harvie and Hudson were good value although they pushed prices up to distance themselves from Lewin and CT.

I was in Jermyn Street last Sunday. We could not find a pub until we got to The Blue Post but all the shirt shops seemed to be open. A poor show. Surely the shops could have a day off and the pubs could open their doors?


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

I have one New & Lingwood shirt. I like it, but the back collar band height, at 2" is too tall for me.


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## noss (Apr 1, 2007)

I have a couple of H&H MTM shirts. Fabric is good quality, but the buttons were poorly sewn on. They are still going strong though almost ten years on, so they can't be too bad.


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