# Tuxedo Lapel



## pmccloskey (Jul 20, 2006)

Jan, Any, and Others:

My friend Jim Burgin posted about a tuxedo Lapel earlier in the week. Jan had always told me to avoid the Notch Lapel and others on this forum confirmed that in response to Jim Burgin's post.

I've called my guy at Nordstrom and he says they only carry Notch Lapel and that the Peak and Shawl are old style. He said that people would think I was wearing my Dad's tux if I showed up with other than a Notch Lapel.

Help! Do I still go for the Peak or the Shawl? If so, where do I get one at a reasonable price ($600 ish).

Am I left to calling Chang's to make me one?

Confused,

Patrick


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Yes, go for peak or shawl. The salesman has a vested interest in making a sale; even if he's not, I think he's very wrong. A notch lapel looks like a suit. Those in the know will notice that it's wrong; those not in the know probably won't notice a peak or shawl at all. Besides, peak and shawl just look so much better.

Would you feel comfortable looking on eBay? That might be your best bet for an inexpensive alternative.


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## pmccloskey (Jul 20, 2006)

*Ebay*

I'm a LITTLE bit wary of getting a tux on ebay because I'm concerned about the fit. I suppose I could hire a local tailor to adjust it.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

During my last trip to Nordstroms, the salesman did not even know what a canvassed suit was. Sometimes they are good and well-meaning people, but out of ignorance and their own taste they might steer you to purchasing a fashion-forward tuxedo. Notched lapels are for business suits.

Ask yourself:

What would Cary Grant do?


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

The Nordys salesman probably sits glued to the Academy Awards, too; he will no doubt advise a nice, shiny, black four-in-hand tie to wear with the notch lapel. After all, clip-on bow ties are sooooo yesteryear. And self-tie bow ties? What the hell are they? Oh, and don't forget to pick up some duck bill black shoes with trendily chunky soles on the way home.

No, you have done well to ask people who actually know about style. The legitimacy of notch lapel dinner jackets has been debated on numerous threads here, and there is historical evidence to show they were in use many decades ago. However, the dinner jacket is a master piece that is a blend of smoking jacket (from whence the shawl) and tail coat (hence the peaks). Wear the lapel that speaks most for your personality and leave the notch for work.

As for the shame of turning up in something that looked like your Dad's tuxedo, I'd feel embarrassed for you too. Now if it had been your grandfather's ...


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

pmccloskey said:


> I've called my guy at Nordstrom and he says they only carry Notch Lapel and that the Peak and Shawl are old style. He said that people would think I was wearing my Dad's tux if I showed up with other than a Notch Lapel.


They would think you were a sensible man who understood how to wear a tuxedo. I personally prefer a shawl collar however a peak collar is nice too. Never a notch; that would look too much like a rental and should just not be done.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Any time you are talking with a salesman, remember, you have something he/she wants...Your money! Obviously the stock he/she has for sale are the "only" designs you should consider buying. Otherwise he doesn't get your money. Find a salesman who sells what you are looking for, a peak or shawl design.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Although the company is not highly regarded in this forum, Patrick, you might check out Jos. A. Bank. They have tuxedoes in peak lapel DB style with the jackets and trousers sold as separates--total cost about $300. They also have complete peak-lapel tuxedos in their higher-grade "Signature" series for $600. You can no doubt get more for your money shopping e-bay, but you may have difficulty finding your size. Banks does offer them in your size, BTW. The Banks store nearest to you would be in Pasadena.

I am sure that Chan can make you a splendid tux, but the cost will be about double your projected budget. If you elect to go this route, it would be best to wait until you have received your first suit from them, then meet with Patrick when he comes through in November so that if there are any issues of fit with your suit, he can tweak your pattern. My first suit was not quite perfection (although very good), but everything since then has been excellent, as far as I am concerned. He again tweaked the pattern (almost imperceptibly) after my second order, but since then he has not changed it at all.

PS: I just called the South Coast Brooks Brothers. They said that they only stocked notch-lapel tuxedoes but could order a peak lapel for you. The cost would be about the same as Chan's--about $1,200. For that kind of money, I would unquestionably go with our friends in Kowloon.


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## DaveInPhilly (May 16, 2005)

It was not too long ago that I was in Nordstroms looking at their tuxs. I asked about the lack of peak lapels and was told that they are just not in demand any more so they are not regularly stocked, but can be ordered, and were readily available at the various trunk shows. He actually said that they (King of Prussia Mall just outside of Philly) occasionally get a peak lapel Hickey Freeman in, he looked but didn't have one at the time.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

Notched lapel tux and peak lapel suit is what I say. I haven't heard this notch lapel being wrong until recently, and the idea is mainly being pushes buy guys on this forum. You see them in movies from the 30's 40's and 50's quite often.

James Bond can't be wrong.


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## RHC 'Fred fan' (Jul 29, 2006)

*Peak or notch are best*

There are some strange responses in this thread...Peak is very classic and stylish - never goes out of style, but you have a problem with finding them depending on what you find off the rack...the current labels that make good peak jackets are more expensive - the best place is Neimans or Bergdorf Goodman, Barneys if you live in NY. The one that is the most outdated is the Shawl - it's James Bond early 60s think of Sean Connery in early films - see how great Roger Moore looks in a peak in the later years. The only person I see wearing Shawl these days is Dick Cheney at formal events in D.C. But, in contradiction to previous posts I think notch is perfectly fine too...the best tuxedo I saw off the rack this year was a three button notch (grosgrain lapels) from Isaia - beautiful, powerful, stunning - wonderful light high-quality fabric, I orginally saw it at Neiman Marcus and thought it was quite nice, on a visit to NY I saw in Barney's display case in thier formal section on floor 1 - they usually highlight the best from a season's formal menswear, also nothing wrong with four-in-hand knot for formal wear


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## DavidRichards (Feb 9, 2006)

Shameless plug for peak lapel tuxedo -

Check out our handsome Italian 1-button, no vent, peak lapel tuxedo here:
https://www.etuxedo.com/designer_tuxedos/imperial1b_peak.htm

Very nice tone-on-tone herringbone cloth.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Nice, David. And here I was sure you were going to talk up the notch :icon_smile:


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

RHC 'Fred fan' said:


> There are some strange responses in this thread...Peak is very classic and stylish - never goes out of style, but you have a problem with finding them depending on what you find off the rack...the current labels that make good peak jackets are more expensive - the best place is Neimans or Bergdorf Goodman, Barneys if you live in NY. The one that is the most outdated is the Shawl - it's James Bond early 60s think of Sean Connery in early films - see how great Roger Moore looks in a peak in the later years. The only person I see wearing Shawl these days is Dick Cheney at formal events in D.C. But, in contradiction to previous posts I think notch is perfectly fine too...the best tuxedo I saw off the rack this year was a three button notch (grosgrain lapels) from Isaia - beautiful, powerful, stunning - wonderful light high-quality fabric, I orginally saw it at Neiman Marcus and thought it was quite nice, on a visit to NY I saw in Barney's display case in thier formal section on floor 1 - they usually highlight the best from a season's formal menswear, also nothing wrong with four-in-hand knot for formal wear


OK, see you at the Oscars in your power tux.

Mr McCloskey
Try this one at CT;


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

RHC 'Fred fan' said:


> I think notch is perfectly fine too...the best tuxedo I saw off the rack this year was a three button notch (grosgrain lapels) from Isaia - beautiful, powerful, stunning - ... also nothing wrong with four-in-hand knot for formal wear


Notch ... three button ... four-in-hand ... yup, we have a new winner!


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

Mattdeckard said:


> James Bond can't be wrong.


James Bond also killed numerous people. Not everything Mr. Bond did should be emulated. :icon_smile_big:


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

I saw a notched lapel tux made by Belvest the other day, which made me wonder...Would these traditional tailoring companies make such a huge mistake? Wouldn`t they know better?

Maybe it`s OK to wear a notch lapel tux? It seems George Bush wears them pretty often too (not that we should be emulating G.B...just brining it up as an example :icon_smile: )


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

Peak may be "correct", but notch is certainly more popular right now. Last trip through (LA) Barney's Men's department we saw 8 mannequins dressed in notch, with one DB and one peak lapel. FWIW.

Although, I personally like the look of peak lapels better.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Though I've never owned a NOTCH lapel DJ, I don't hate them. While I've always known that peak lapels were preferred, I'd no idea that NOTCH lapels were so maligned until I perused the MB's. I can only assume that the preponderance of men that I see dressed in the dreaded Notch are not habituates of these boards.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Mattdeckard said:


> James Bond can't be wrong.


I'm not very keen on that bow tie, either.


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## Jiddle (Aug 7, 2005)

A rep from Hickey in Rochester explained to me that the reason for the predominance of notched tuxedos in USA is that the same pattern used for suits can also be used for the manufacture/cutting of tuxedos. That is why Hickey tuxes have flaps on pockets, too. It is, as so many things in life, strictly a matter of economics. Again, to get a peaked-lapel tuxedo with besom/jetted pockets look to Zegna, Samuelsohn, Oxxford, etc. that will cut one to the classic format.


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## bwep (Apr 17, 2005)

This topic comes up very often, about every 2 to 3 months. The only time that I have seen or heard bashing of the notch lapel with tux is on the forum. I prefer the peak in a single breast, but happen to own two notched lapel tuxes, one Samuelsohn and one Vestimenta (my favorite). When I visit Pockets, Korshak or Neiman's here in Dallas, there is a preponderance of notch lapel tuxes, nothing wrong with that. At some point I will do a peak lapel SB jacket ( keep in mind Chis Despos...) , but I want too many other things. As for the shawl lapel, I personally cannot stand it. It reminds me of wait staff in a restaurant that we frequented when I was a child. Not personally fo me.

I think that it is a matter of personal taste and that there is NO RIGHT way or rule for such...

Hook 'em


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## Mr. Golem (Mar 18, 2006)

I wore a peak lapel to my high school prom last year. Don't listen to the salesman.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Jill said:


> Although, I personally like the look of peak lapels better.


Jill, if you prefer the peak lapel, that alone is sufficient reason for favoring them!

I note that some posters claim this preference for peak lapels is large limited to a coterie on this forum--as sort of forumite "groupthink."

Consider then the words of Alan Flusser ("Master" Flusser, as some have called him):

"Dinner jacket models that deviate from...classic archetypes or boast such informal embellishments as notched lapels or flap pockets devolve into sartorial oxymorons, convoluting both the form's aesthetic logic and its promise of timeless elegance. The whole idea of a formal suit is to distinguish itself from the notch-lapel business suit, not replicate it."--"Dressing the Man," p.242.

Hear also what our own Manton saith:

"The dinner jacket is proper...only with peaked or shawl lapels....Notched lapels on a dinner jacket eviscerate its formal character. "The Suit," p. 172.

Lest it be argued that Flusser and Manton are stalwarts of the classic conservatism regnant in this forum, let me quote from someone not so esteemed in our forum (although more classic and conservative in his recommendations than many might suppose), Carson Kressley of "Queer Eye" notoriety, who in the book with the same title as the show, sums up tuxedo styles as follows (p. 199):

1. The Shawl Collar. A smooth, relaxed look, a certain James Bond-in-the-boudoir appeal.

2. Peaked Lapels. The dressiest, most correct and hottest option. It's my choice.

3. Notched Lapels. New and not improved, the notch is overly like an everyday suit--which contradicts the whole idea of black tie. But it has become the awards-show standard. Go figure.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

Tuxedo pants questions: Is it more correct to have belt loops or side tabs?


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

Bob Loblaw said:


> Tuxedo pants questions: Is it more correct to have belt loops or side tabs?


No belt loops. Suspenders or side tabs. Or fitted perfectly (possibly with one of those elastic/cloth half belts?)?


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Bob Loblaw said:


> Tuxedo pants questions: Is it more correct to have belt loops or side tabs?


Side tabs as belts are not worn with DJ's. I use suspenders.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Jiddle said:


> A rep from Hickey in Rochester explained to me that the reason for the predominance of notched tuxedos in USA is that the same pattern used for suits can also be used for the manufacture/cutting of tuxedos.*That is why Hickey tuxes have flaps on pockets, too.* ,


I think that the flapped pockets are a design choice since their omission would probably save time and money.(Incidentally. H-F offers a PL DJ)



Jiddle said:


> Again, to get a peaked-lapel tuxedo with besom/jetted pockets look Oxxford,


Oxxford makes their DJ's with flapped pockets:icon_smile_wink:


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

pmccloskey said:


> Jan, Any, and Others:
> 
> I've called my guy at Nordstrom and he says they only carry Notch Lapel and that the Peak and Shawl are old style. He said that people would think I was wearing my Dad's tux if I showed up with other than a Notch Lapel.
> 
> ...


In the winter ( the cloth heavier than most sold today) I wear my father's jacket with wonderfully heavy corded grosgrain peaked lapels and it elicits more compliments than my own lighter weight jacket worn in warmer weather. Old style perhaps, but I can only wish I had his 1956 Cadilac to arrive in.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

One question I have to ask you Experts- If peaked and shawl is correct and notched is not, because of it's origins, then how come your wearing non-original style lounge jackets every day and be right? Shouldn't everything be original?

On the other hand- because, DJ are rare, and so then special, why would anybody wear an ordinary notched lapel?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

WA said:


> One question I have to ask you Experts- If peaked and shawl is correct and notched is not, because of it's origins, then how come your wearing non-original style lounge jackets every day and be right? Shouldn't everything be original?
> 
> On the other hand- because, DJ are rare, and so then special, why would anybody wear an ordinary notched lapel?


Things evolve, sometimes for the better and sometimes not. I don't wear a 1910 jacket because the jacket of the 30s, which has little changed today, was an improvement. On the other hand sometimes things do not evolve for the better (or as our Intelligent Design friends might put, it all designs are not intelligent) eg. compare Bach and MTV. Style in dress is an excercise in aesthetics and simply put most of us here find the notch lapel dinner jacket aesthetically displeasing.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

That is a good answer arkirshner!

I was hopeing to hear an explaination from Manton and DougNZ, because they seem to know the most.


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

An example from a well known Saville Row Tailor www.gievesandhawkes.com/

https://imageshack.us

If even they are making dinner jackets with notch lapels, maybe there is no rule and the choice can be made by preference.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

During the first few decades of the twentieth century, some radical changes to menswear were made with the aim being an improvement in style. I believe the result heralded the height of sartorial style but was at the expense of some degree of grandeur. 

The sad thing about today's menswear changes is that they are not driven by inspired style masters but by economic factors. We retain the lounge suit of the 1930's with improvements in suiting, but more suits are now fused and machine made than not. Dinner jackets, similarly, are subjected to cost controls and cut to the same pattern as lounge suits because it improves the profit margin.

The result is that cheap, inappropriate products are foistered upon an unwitting public amidst clever marketing, and supported by salemen with no knowledge of what is right and proper, and media coverage of celebrities doing their best to stay in the spotlight by being different. The majority of people wearing a dinner jacket only do so at their prom, and maybe their wedding, usually choosing to hire for the occasions and receiving for their money garments made as cheaply as possible to provide the best 'return on investment' for the hire companies ... and those jackets have notched lapels.

Remember, too, tailcoats, morning coats and dinner jackets were once the clothes of the aristocracy and well-to-do and were priced accordingly. Now they are made to be affordable for the sons of the working class and concessions must be made to meet that market. Salesmen have little knowledge of tailoring and less of clothing conventions; ask twenty salesmen to explain the function of canvas in a jacket, the traditionally correct length of sleeves, the history of the dinner jacket or how to tie a bow tie, and see how you fare.

Demand, in this instance, has little to do with it; I believe the so-called popularity of notch lapel dinner jackets is almost entirely supply-driven with powerful marketing to an uneducated public.


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## onthelistbaby (Nov 15, 2004)

It's interesting to me to hear people comment that "they sell it, so it must be ok", and "I've never heard that it's incorrect, exept on these message boards."

Well, they also sell four, five, and six button Neru jackets in blue red and green as formal wear. They will show a dinner jacket with tennis shoes, or jeans. None of this makes it appropriate. 

You should know that the only place that you hear that it is incorrect to wear a notch lapel dinner jacket is on these message boards is because the only people to whom you speak that have knowledge on the subject are on "these message boards".

Buy a book on the subject. There are many.

It kills me that even very high end stores try to chase these trends. Formal wear should not be subject to cheap fashion.

Be aware that wearing proper formal wear will make you stand out from the crowd far more than trying to wear what's "in".


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

onthelistbaby said:


> Be aware that wearing proper formal wear will make you stand out from the crowd far more than trying to wear what's "in".


And it will also save you looking like a clown.

Well said, onthelistbaby.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

DougNZ said:


> Demand, in this instance, has little to do with it; I believe the so-called popularity of notch lapel dinner jackets is almost entirely supply-driven with powerful marketing to an uneducated public.


Meditate on DougNZ's quote, this is all you need to know.

My 2 cents, Trends are cyclical, style endures.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

Try this exercise then: imagine if you were getting married 35 years ago. The salesman brings you a Dupont fiber powder blue tuxedo to try on. You ask him for black and he laughs at you and calls you a "square". Would you have acquiesced?

edit: acquiesced to correct spelling.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

Bob Loblaw said:


> Try this exercise then: imagine if you were getting married 35 years ago. The salesman brings you a Dupont fiber powder blue tuxedo to try on. You ask him for black and he laughs at you and calls you a "square". Would you have acquiesed?


No, and his manner would tell me I was dealing with the wrong person and would leave.

Your question illustrates DougNZ's point perfectly. Stores create demand by changing a style to make what you have seem outdated. When they sell through, the style changes.

If someone prefers notched tuxedo jackets, they should wear one. The main thing is to dress from ones own point of view. True to your own style.

To me, a notch lapel, flap pocket tux is not elegant or special. Does not reflect my taste.

acquiesce, spelling update


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## Leicester square (May 28, 2006)

Just to raise you all not one but two on the "James Bond can be wrong" stakes.

I don't like the jacket (for reasons already given), bow tie (too small and neat), shirt (no studs, ugly cuffs and looks in dire need of a press and starch) or cuff links (don't like gold).

And he has not got a boutonnière!



Beat that!


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Bob Loblaw said:


> Try this exercise then: imagine if you were getting married 35 years ago. The salesman brings you a Dupont fiber powder blue tuxedo to try on. You ask him for black and he laughs at you and calls you a "square". Would you have acquiesced?
> 
> edit: acquiesced to correct spelling.


I had to wear a powder blue tuxedo jacket as a groomsman at my cousin's wedding 37 years ago. Even though my sartorial sensibilities were not nearly as refined then as now, I was still terribly struck by the "wrongness" of it all and felt like a gawddamn clown throughout the ceremony and the ensuing festivities.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> I had to wear a powder blue tuxedo jacket as a groomsman at my cousin's wedding 37 years ago. Even though my sartorial sensibilities were not nearly as refined then as now, I was still terribly struck by the "wrongness" of it all and felt like a gawddamn clown throughout the ceremony and the ensuing festivities.


I had to wear a brown tux with velvet cloverleaf lapels as a groomsman in the "70's.


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## Leicester square (May 28, 2006)

Chris Despos said:


> I had to wear a brown tux with velvet cloverleaf lapels as a groomsman in the "70's.


Oh the humanity.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

DougNZ- DB jackets at the stores are always peaked, but I do think the skill in making patterns has vanished from the rtw. The Queen of Englands husband wears a notch tux. 

It seems like, from W. D. F. Vincent (1890's-191x Tailor and Cutter), he shows a new lounge jacket that shows 2 buttons, instead of 4, this is about 1905 (the pictures show a notched and peaked lapels)-

"THE NEW LOUNGE.
The lounge finished with a low rolling lapel is one of the newest styles.
The only difference to be made in the cutting is to slightly lower the gorge at the front, so that the lapel is adjusted to shape desired.
The collar is the most important feature in making this garment a success ; the fall edge must be cut very short and not too much stretched in making up.
Dress Jackets are often made up in this style ; the step forming a right angle makes an agreeable change to the pointed lapel also shown on the opposite page.

DRESS JACKETS.
Diagram 67.
The special feature of the Dress Jacket is the low rolling lapel, finished in the same style as a dress coat.
There are various styles, as, for instance, the pointed lapel, as in diagram.
The roll collar and the step roll finished without a point.
In every case it is the custom to face the lapels with silk to the edge and to make it roll down to the waist, or lower.
In the case of the roll collar, the silk is taken right round the neck.
The pockets are usually put in with a welt, but sometimes
they are put in the sideseam, thus giving a plainer appearance to the front.
They are cut just the same as an ordinary Lounge, with the exception of the front, which is shaped to taste.
They are mostly made with a whole back and being made from thin material, it is only necessary to allow from 1 3/4 to 2 inches for making up.
The gorge is lowered 1 inch extra at I, and the outline at 20, 20 adjusted, so that a stylish lapel is produced when it. is turned back."

Unless I'm missing something the notched lapel on tux has been around for a long time. As you say things were sorted out in the 20's-30's, but maybe resorted, again in the 40's, 50's. I would think sorting out until we die and beyond.

One purpose of change is because people get tired of seeing the same old same old. People need a break. Like cummerbunds over used in the 80's- nothing wrong with them, being proper, but some people got tired of seeing them. As long as coats have lapels I'll be happy, because they are classic.


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## Leon (Apr 16, 2005)

Evening tails are a double breasted coat with narrow fronts which cannot fasten. The dinner jacket is its bastard child.

"The dinner coat is of course peccable: that is to say, faulty in lineage. Its lineage only back only 100 years, half that of the tail coat. Edward VII claimed it was his invention, but certainly it was his grandson who made it popular. It was not easy for him to do this; the evening tail coat with, of course, white tie was very much worn in the 1930s...
The dinner coat, is of course, merely the evening version of the day lounge suits. The double-breasted coat has been worn a lot during the past ten years, especially by men interested in fashion. It has been extremely useful as a shape for the evening. The two rows of buttons, the revers wider than on the single-breasted, more silk showing - all make more of a 'dress' effect."

Hardy Amies, The Englishman's Suit, 1994.

Single breasted revers on a single breasted coat are never incorrect.

Leon


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

I'd say side tabs are classier.

There is no more correct when it comes to lapels. The peak lapel models are off peak lapel suit patterns.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Those in the know still typically wear peak or shawl lapels.










It is significant that in private life, Bond does indeed wear peak:


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*The choice, my friends, is easy*



Mattdeckard said:


> Notched lapel tux and peak lapel suit is what I say. I haven't heard this notch lapel being wrong until recently, and the idea is mainly being pushes buy guys on this forum. You see them in movies from the 30's 40's and 50's quite often.
> 
> James Bond can't be wrong.


Very good Matt. A bit of controversy is a good thing, I say.

Now let me seem to fuel the controversy more but then provide a solution based on better knowledge of dress history:

https://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dinnerjacketnotchedlapelsls3.jpg

As you can see these are examples of notched lapel dinner jackets dating from 1899 and 1902.

What's more here is an example of a morning coat with notched lapels dating from the 1890's:

https://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=morningcoatnotchedlapelsmi6.jpg

You can easily look at these and conclude that this consititutes a definitive historical precedent for formal wear for both day and night that happily sports a notched lapel.

Think again - because at the time both the dinner jacket and morning coat were a _substantially_ more casual form of dress compared to the standard formal wear of the time ie the tail coat in the evening and frock coat during the day. The tail and frock coat of course did have peaked lapels:

https://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wildeoscar001vt4.jpg

So you can conclude:

Peaked lapels=more formal
Notched lapels=more casual

Later when the frock coat sadly became extinct, morning coats became daytime formal wear - at which point they started making them with peaked lapels:

https://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=morningdressbz9.jpg

All you have to do is put a dinner jacket on with peaked lapels and it instantly distinguishes itself from its more casual counterpart with notched lapels. It just looks sharper and smarter. Many of us here like a lounge suit with peaked lapels for the same reason. Et tu Matt:










https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=57555

A fine proponent of the notched lapel _you_ are :icon_smile:!

Back when Sean Connery was younger, white tie was more prevalent for grand occasions and black tie worn in less formal situations such as private dinners parties at people's homes, where a more casual notched lapel was probably quite appropriate. In this day and age when for most people the most formal evening wear worn is going to be black tie, if you want to look sharp and formally dressed for a black tie event the choice of lapels is easy.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Excellent report, Sator. I think your logic is impeccable.


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

pmccloskey said:


> I've called my guy at Nordstrom and he says they only carry Notch Lapel and that the Peak and Shawl are old style. He said that people would think I was wearing my Dad's tux if I showed up with other than a Notch Lapel.


You need a new guy.

"We only sell one style. People will laugh at you if you buy a style other than the one we sell."

Actually you need a new store.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

*Hollywood Style*


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*Hollywood clownwear*

This one is particularly hideous. The lighting suggests that the event took place during the day. Why on earth are they in evening wear? Was this the event where Armani provided these clown costumes?

Gone are the days - alas - when the men of Hollywood knew how to dress.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

If at a daytime formal event, George Cluney and friends might have done better turning to Gary Cooper for guidance rather than to Georgio Armani:

https://imageshack.us


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

The sad part is, if you attended wearing formal clothing for the daytime, you would`ve looked stupid even though you weren`t the stupid one.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Whatever that was, it probably was not a daytime event. Hollywood bashes are typically scheduled so that the photographers can shoot the celebs in natural light as they enter the hall (a tiresomely long process) and then the event itself takes place in the evening.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Aw...he looks like someone littler than he just beat him up and took his girlfriend.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

*Another black tie event*


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## thinman (Jan 21, 2005)

Bob Loblaw said:


> Tuxedo pants questions: Is it more correct to have belt loops or side tabs?


Side tabs. I believe tuxedo pants should properly be worn with either side tabs or braces. Having said that, my own preference is a belt, but I plan to hide it under a DB jacket (with peak lapels). All this will happen "someday", after I've satisfied more urgent sartorial "needs".


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## Mr. AndyAu (Sep 25, 2006)

Great thread with tons of useful info for the not so informed (like me). I am attended a wedding as a groomsmen in 2 months. Perfect time for this kind of subject to come up. :icon_cheers:


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

Mr. AndyAu said:


> Great thread with tons of useful info for the not so informed (like me). I am attended a wedding as a groomsmen in 2 months. Perfect time for this kind of subject to come up. :icon_cheers:


Unfortunately, Mr. AndyAu, as a groomsman, you are completely at the mercy of the happy couple where your attire is concerned.


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## Mr. AndyAu (Sep 25, 2006)

A Questionable Gentleman,

You are absolutely correct and I am at their mercy with everything pertaining to the wedding. But maybe I can score some points with the bridesmaids if I seem like I know what I am talking about using the helpful info on this tread. :devil:


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

Mr. AndyAu said:


> maybe I can score with the bridesmaids :devil:


You naughty groomsman :icon_smile_wink:


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

harrybee said:


>


Look at the gentleman just beyond George's right shoulder!


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

Srynerson said:


> James Bond also killed numerous people. Not everything Mr. Bond did should be emulated. :icon_smile_big:


"When I kill, it's under specific orders from my government; and those I kill are themselves killers." Man with the Golden Gun


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## Rebel_5 (Jan 9, 2006)

Many of us on here are current or former military or law enforcement. Undoubtedly such a statement could apply to at least a few here.



AMVanquish said:


> "When I kill, it's under specific orders from my government; and those I kill are themselves killers." Man with the Golden Gun


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Leon said:


> Evening tails are a double breasted coat with narrow fronts which cannot fasten. *The dinner jacket is its bastard child.*


I just noticed this statement. It is rather true and I am please someone dared to say it. But if we follow this train of thought we could say similar things of the lounge suit in general, not just the evening version of it.


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

This is better... I have a shawl lapel Tux. I feel it is distinctive and unique compared with peaked or notch that say more "standard suit" for me.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Sator said:


> I just noticed this statement. It is rather true and I am please someone dared to say it. But if we follow this train of thought we could say similar things of the lounge suit in general, not just the evening version of it.


The dinner jacket is more the nephew of the evening tailcoat rather than its bastard child. If anything, it is the son of the smoking jacket.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> The dinner jacket is more the nephew of the evening tailcoat rather than its bastard child. If anything, it is the son of the smoking jacket.


Yes, it is a terribly harsh thing to say, isn't it - even inflammatory. That said, I sympathise with a sense of nostalgia for a time when a grand occassion demanded dress coats. I heard it said though that as the lounge suit became more prominent as town wear, it was simply inevitable that someone should make an evening wear version of it. Put like that the history of the evening lounge coat aka dinner jacket became suddenly became crystal clear to me then. All of that business about it evolving form the smoking jacket etc had always seemed frightfully confusing to me as a proper smoking jacket looks quite different to most dinner jackets - except those with a shawl lapel of course. Then again I have seen 19th century tail coats shown with shawl lapel, so just because a dinner jacket may have a shawl lapel doesn't necessarily mean that they evolved from the smoking jacket as most commentators have assumed.


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## LaoHu (Sep 16, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> Those in the know still typically wear peak or shawl lapels.


Can anyone identify what is the construction of President Reagan's shirt front?


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

LaoHu said:


> Can anyone identify what is the construction of President Reagan's shirt front?


It is rather interesting...apparently a wide horizontal pleat. Perhaps it worked better with his bulletproof vest or something.


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## Spooter (Jul 15, 2006)

What's wrong with these people wearing long neckties to a black tie event


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## Jaguar (Feb 12, 2006)

Oh, please do go for the peak lapel single breasted. They make a very powerful statement in a very elegant manner. While it is true that they are not a recent style (mine is dated to the thirties), the peak lapels on suits generally are coming back: witness the blazers at BR. So, by being classic, you can ride the cusp of fashion, too.

Regards,
Jaguar


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## klittler (Oct 24, 2006)

*Dinner jacket issues*

I have been a bit of an unwise purchaser on the dinner jacket front. Some years back I had to attend a black tie event and - needing to fit a figure that had expanded quite a bit since my early twenties - I bought myself a new suit.

After shopping around, I opted for a JP Tilford (Samuelsohn) model with (horrors!) notched lapels. I can't blame the salesperson, as I consciously chose notched over peaked. I even have a nagging half-memory that the Harry Rosen salesperson may have pushed for peaked lapels.

A few years passed and having read Flusser, Anotongiavanni and lots of posts on this Forum, I realized the error of my ways. So at Christmas, I came across and bought a Cerutti midnight blue model on deep discount. It has peaked lapels alright and is canvassed like the first but it has blue satin facings, which I am led to understand, is just not on.

So I now find myself with a properly coloured notched lapel model and an incorrectly hued peaked lapel model. Having now dished out close to $2000 CDN, it would be nice to have a dinner suit that I felt confident in wearing. Could a tailor take off the satin facings (in reality one large piece) and cut a replacement piece from black satin and sew it on, or would this be hard to pull off?


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Why are the blue satin facings not "on"? Because they're not grosgrain? I am aware that gentlemen of refined sensibilities usually prefer grosgrain, but I am not aware that satin is all that heinous. Could Manton or some other heavy-hitter weigh in definitively on this? Your midnight blue peak lapel tux sounds very appealing to me!


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

Spooter said:


> What's wrong with these people wearing long neckties to a black tie event


Nothing, if you want to look like a butler.


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## somethingsilly (Feb 26, 2007)

Well, there's another reason you shouldn't believe everything Bond tells you, since there's nothing wrong with killing a few select people now-and-then: his martinis were wretched. And - technically - not even martinis.
And the Nordstrom salesman is so far removed even from James Bond's level of sophistication, well - why care at all what he says? Have a good laugh on him instead.

Thanks for posting those pictures of the shawl collar DJ. What a handsome look - I'd seen shawl collars on sweaters before, but that's all. I don't mean to derail the discussion, but... Are sweaters and DJs the only proper clothing on which you'd find them?, excepting, of course, smoking jackets. And if I think peak lapels just plain look better than notched - would it be in bad taste to just get all my jackets/blazers done in that way? Yes, I'm that far out of the know.

Anyway, good on you for asking here, OPer, instead of letting some salesman make your decision. Like some dead guy with nice shoes once said, "A man who does not think for himself does not think at all."


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## klittler (Oct 24, 2006)

*Blue satin facings*

Thanks. It wasn't a question of satin v. grosgrain but I had thought that any facing that isn't black falls into the 'not-on" category.

I seem to recall an admonition in either Flusser or Antongiavanni that evening dress is to be treated pretty much as a uniform and that facings must be black.

I would wear black tie, cummerbund and braces and black onyx studs. Could I get away with a midnight blue jacket _with blue facings_? It does look rather nice.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

40 years ago manufactures made many different models, whereas, today what we see is very limited, unless you are talking about other sorts of clothes that didn't exist 40 years ago. Shawl collars were used more and for a number of different jackets. I don't know that I have seen them on a suit jacket (probably have), but blazers, sports coats, odd jackets and other jackets, certainly. On suit jackets it would probably rock the boat too much for most people. Lots of people have the herd mentality, so a shawl on a suit jacket wouldn't be seen very often. Other people rule and regulate themselves out, until they're left out, then change.

Midnight blue DJ with blue lapels. Didn't say midnight blue lapels, so it must be a lighter blue. It seems like midnight blue, instead of black would be fine. Doesn't black have a greenish tint under some lights, whereas, midnight blue will appear unchanged or black?


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## wgb (Mar 2, 2007)

WA said:


> Midnight blue DJ with blue lapels. Didn't say midnight blue lapels, so it must be a lighter blue. It seems like midnight blue, instead of black would be fine. Doesn't black have a greenish tint under some lights, whereas, midnight blue will appear unchanged or black?


Manton's book, 'The Suit' mentions that at least one famous personage (can't remember who) opted for midnight blue in lieu of black due to the effect of light on black.

If you're not comfortable with the color, you won't wear the DJ, so if you think the lapels are not dark blue enough, talk to your tailor about replacing them with a darker hue, although you'll have to replace the stripe down the leg to match as well.


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## somethingsilly (Feb 26, 2007)

Well, if it's not completely unheard of, then, I'll resolve to someday hunt down or commission a sport coat with a shawl collar. I just think they're that neat.
Now I'll get out of the way of your thread - thanks.ic12337:


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## klittler (Oct 24, 2006)

*WA's response*

WA is right. While the cloth of the jacket is midnight blue, the lapels are not as dark. I suppose I would say that they are navy, though not a dark navy (and of course, there's the satin effect on top).


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