# National Costume



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Out of curiosity, which national costume items interest you? This is a subject that I don't think has been discussed before on the forum, but one that is quite interesting.

I find the Indian shervani (when done right) to be a very elegant item, though I'm perhaps biased due to my Indian ancestry. It is the coat worn by Prime Minister Nehru below.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm interested in Hanfu, the alleged national costume of China which existed before the Manchurians invaded China in the 1600s and replaced it with your typical Qipao and Cheongsam. I'm part of a movement to revive its legitimacy and use.

https://www.skycitygallery.com/hanfu/hanfudesign.html
https://www.skycitygallery.com/hanfu/design2.html

Ming style:


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Wow. That drapes magnificently.


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## egerland (Aug 18, 2008)

I like to wear kilts (I've got two), even for mountain climbing. 

Since I'm actually German, I have some items of "Tracht" including a vest and a jacket. Interestingly, in Germany Tracht can often be worn in lieu of black tie for social events. We are not talking lederhosen here, but a suit or jacket and long pants.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Well as an Irishman, the kilt of course. I've got two.

And yes, the kilt just like whiskey originated in Ireland. 
And traditionally from the days of the Gaels onwards Irish kilts were also plaid. 
However, military, state, and dancing kilts have always been of one of the official colours
Saffron, navy, grey.
Surprisingly top outsiders green kilts are a recent but still rare phenomena (There's a huge story here,which I won't go into in lots of detail, suffice to say that the wearing of the green was banned by Cromwell -wearing it carried the death penalty. And my mother a superstitious woman from the west never wears green just like the majority of Irish people of her generation - wearing green meant bad luck for hundreds of years from the days of Cromwell onwards) 


The Irish tribe in Ulster, the Scotti, took the kilt to northern Britain with them when they first started raiding and invading the northwest coast of Britain in the 3rd century AD.

Another fact is that up to the 1600s Scottish kings had to be of Irish blood, descended from the original Irish kings of Scotland.

And yet another fact is that Scottish Gaedhlig and Manx Gaelg are both daughter languages of Irish Gaeilge.



Regimental Drum Major of the Royal Irish Rangers in saffron kilt and wearing the caubeen, traditional headgear of Irish troops. The "royal" of course indicating that this, like the "Royal Irish Regiment" is a regiment of the British army and NOT of the IDF (Irish Defence Forces)




IDF piper of an infantry battalion in saffron kilt on duty somewhere with the UN, probably in the 50s or 60s, when the IDF (including 3 of my uncles) were in Lebanon, Cyprus and the Congo to name just three IDF UN missions.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

A British suit - bespoke and made on Savile Row. 

Nothings interests me more in terms of traditional or national clothing.


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## S.Otto (Aug 14, 2007)

*Awesome Thread.*

Congratulations on beating me to the National Costume Thread. I've been collecting materials for about 6 years on East African tribal Costume. A recent computer virus wiped out 4 years of images and notes. I look forward to seeing this topic continued and maybe a related thread on how you incorporate national costume into western/suit wearing.

I unfortunately own no articles of my formal tribal costume. I do contain an informal variant and would like to post it but my camera sucks & is broken.

If I do recover my work I would like to do a round of images at a time like the Earl of Ormonde did. It is a shame I can't.

Best Regards.


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## Moose Maclennan (Apr 20, 2006)

Scottish national dress, whenever I get the chance. And a kilt can't be beat for walking.


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## jyook (Nov 23, 2007)

I kind of dig this:

The Japanese Hakama...

This particular one reminds me of this though:









:icon_smile_big:


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Wow. What a beautiful garment. Something about the flowing skirt and the fact that she's working on a painting calls to mind Dutch Renaissance artists like Vermeer.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

White tie or National Dress. Always.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> And yes, the kilt just like whiskey originated in Ireland.
> And traditionally from the days of the Gaels onwards Irish kilts were also plaid.


What a load of cobblers.

The kilt was a relatively late invention. Up until about 1500 the Gaels of Scotland and Ireland both wore a _leine _(a long, loose shirt, sometimes kilted and often dyed safron), and a _brat_ (plaid blanket). After this time, in Scotland, the blanket began to be folded (kilted) and belted about the waist with the top half arranged about the upper body in various manners. However, this _feileadh mhor,_ or great kilt, only lasted about 150 years. From about 1650 the top half was separated from the bottom half which had the folds stitched in, giving rise to the_ feileadh beg, _or small kilt, which is the kilt recognised today.

The small kilt then migrated to Ireland, partly as a result of the influence of the British army, and partly as a result of the Celtic revival of the 19th century.

Surprisingly, Mel Gibson got it very, very wrong.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

There's more were that came from:














^^ Chinese undershirt and trousers

They are made by Minghua Tang, a maker who specialises in Ming Dynasty style clothing. IMHO, their attention to detail and quality use of material and tailoring is second to none. Currently ordering a set to wear for Chinese New Year!


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## Carlton-Browne (Jun 4, 2007)

I quite often sport a Nehru waistcoat I bought in the market in Lahore - I normally wear it with a pochette but sans tie as Friday casual. I also usually wear a salwar kameez as a nightshirt. The other ethnic Friday option is an Austrian Janker by Giesswein and for other days of the week when it's really cold a Loden coat though the latter has now entered the mainstream somewhat.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

DougNZ said:


> What a load of cobblers.
> 
> The kilt was a relatively late invention. Up until about 1500 the Gaels of Scotland and Ireland both wore a _leine _(a long, loose shirt, sometimes kilted and often dyed safron), and a _brat_ (plaid blanket). After this time, in Scotland, the blanket began to be folded (kilted) and belted about the waist with the top half arranged about the upper body in various manners. However, this _feileadh mhor,_ or great kilt, only lasted about 150 years. From about 1650 the top half was separated from the bottom half which had the folds stitched in, giving rise to the_ feileadh beg, _or small kilt, which is the kilt recognised today.
> 
> ...


 by two historians at the Victoria and Albert museum.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

DougNZ said:


> What a load of cobblers.
> 
> The kilt was a relatively late invention. Up until about 1500 the Gaels of Scotland and Ireland both wore a _leine _(a long, loose shirt, sometimes kilted and often dyed safron), and a _brat_ (plaid blanket). After this time, in Scotland, the blanket began to be folded (kilted) and belted about the waist with the top half arranged about the upper body in various manners. However, this _feileadh mhor,_ or great kilt, only lasted about 150 years. From about 1650 the top half was separated from the bottom half which had the folds stitched in, giving rise to the_ feileadh beg, _or small kilt, which is the kilt recognised today.
> 
> The small kilt then migrated to Ireland, partly as a result of the influence of the British army, and partly as a result of the Celtic revival of the 19th century.


Fun answer: Cobblers, I don't buy into all that revisionist nonsense based on supposed academic research. I'll stick with the ancient Irish oral stroytelling tradition handed down from...blah blah blah blah (Hey, if it's a good enough method for bible stories, it's good enough for me ) :icon_smile_big:

Serious answer: I know you're right of course. Just winding up the Scots a bit!

Also another interesting fact is that tartans applying to individual clans is also a relatively new phenomena, apparently from as late as the 1700s.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Also another interesting fact is that tartans applying to individual clans is also a relatively new phenomena, apparently from as late as the 1700s.


Even later! I think the first 'clan tartans' approved by chiefs were the ones made by Wilsons and approved about 1840 (going by memory). Prior to that about five regionally standardised setts (now called district tartans) had been identified. The romantic image of Scotland has been the greatest piece of modern marketing the world has ever seen.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Indeed, George IV's visit to Edingurgh, first time for a Hanover, stage managed by Walter Scott, gave rise to an image and industry that just keeps on giving. Suddenly every lowland landowner and family had a "clan" tartan though their genes were largely Anglo-Saxon.

While no one enjoys a bit of Scottish-American foppery more than moi, I realize the thread to ancient Gaeldom is, while real, quite embellished.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Charlie: Those are brilliantly made and artistic clothes. I'd wear them, except I'd probably just look like a Chinese-wannabe white boy.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Fun answer: Cobblers, I don't buy into all that revisionist nonsense based on supposed academic research. I'll stick with the ancient Irish oral stroytelling tradition handed down from...blah blah blah blah (Hey, if it's a good enough method for bible stories, it's good enough for me ) :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Serious answer: I know you're right of course. Just winding up the Scots a bit!
> 
> Also another interesting fact is that tartans applying to individual clans is also a relatively new phenomena, apparently from as late as the 1700s.


Had me going there for a minute your Lordship. 
Both my in laws, born in 2 different Irish counties, never saw kilts or bagpipes till they went to their first St Patricks day parade in NY as 40ish adults.

The Irish dispora, at least in the US, must be the only group I know of who celebrate their ethnicity by wearing the uniform of the army that oppressed their forbearers. Odd?

PS: Isnt your title extinct?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Literide said:


> PS: Isnt your title extinct?


Dormant dear boy, dormant not extinct.:icon_smile_wink: The last Earl, also like myself a James Butler died in 1838 but had been created Marquess in 1825, which is why I take the liberty of using it, my father's family also coming from the town of the ancestral seat, Kilkenny. :icon_smile_wink: 
However, the Irish Marquessate is extinct and has been since Walter died in 1820. 
And the British Marquessate is also extinct and has been since James H.T.C Butler (An American simply known as Charles Butler) died in 1997, aged 98. Charles' father was a rector in Kent. I'm not sure if it was Charles as an adult or his father who migrated to the US. But I think it was Charles because I seem to remember having read that Charles served in the British army for a while.

The Duchy was abolished in 1715 https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/History/Barons/ExtinctDukes.html


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Literide said:


> The Irish dispora, at least in the US, must be the only group I know of who celebrate their ethnicity by wearing the uniform of the army that oppressed their forbearers. Odd?


You're preaching to the choir mate. What always makes me laugh on St. Patrick's Day is seeing the various "Irish" bands of the "Irish" police houses and "Irish" fire houses marching in NY and Boston in full Scottish pipes & drums rig. With Scottish tartans and wait for it, not uillean pipes but highland bagpipes!!!! :icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:

The other thing that is so different is all the green on the US parades. When I was a kid (in Ireland and in London) you rarely saw anything green on an Irish person, ever. 
And definitely not on St. Patrick's Day it was considered both bad luck and sacrilege. 
The first time I wore anything green was when I joined the RAF aged 18.

Nowadays though (unfortunately) parades in Ireland and the UK are full blown American style affairs, with loads of green everywhere! 
Not my cup of green tea at all :icon_smile_wink:


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Charlie: Those are brilliantly made and artistic clothes. I'd wear them, except I'd probably just look like a Chinese-wannabe white boy.


Oooo, you don't know half of it!

I know a handful of Caucasians who speak Chinese, play a Chinese instrument (in my case, the ), recite and compose Tang poetry, paint chinese paintings, wear Chinese clothes, etc. In effect, they are more Chinese than the Chinese themselves (who don't seem to give a damn these days about their own heritage and now rely on the likes of Westerners to appreciate it for them; oh the irony)!


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## PeterEliot (Jul 9, 2008)

*Korean costumes*

"Durumagi"--Korean traditional overcoats. It's a shame we only get to wear these twice a year (New Year's and harvest festival.) I don't own one yet (costs enough to buy two full-set suits), but I'd imagine going back to suits after donning these for two or three days would feel rather constricting.


















































Bush and Putin in durumagi, at an APEC summit meeting held in Busan a couple years back. They're probably wearing suits underneath, so look rather bulky.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Personally, I prefer the Korean literati type white or buff robe with 'gat' (a black gauze hat) for men as it is rather plain and understated than the over use of brocade that we see in modern Hanbok for men (this is also overdone in China in regards to the Manchurian Magua; what's wrong with a plain cloth fabric?)










The modern Korean women's Hanbok, however, looks great as the cut and fabric suits their figures more. I really like the ladies court costume.


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## PeterEliot (Jul 9, 2008)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> (this is also overdone in China in regards to the Manchurian Magua; what's wrong with a plain cloth fabric?)


As I said most folks only wear hanbok on major holidays--hence the need to display and to impress. But yes, the plain fabrics (in Korea, most often cotton-white or azure blue) are very handsome and dignified.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Dormant dear boy, dormant not extinct.:icon_smile_wink: The last Earl, also like myself a James Butler died in 1838 but had been created Marquess in 1825, which is why I take the liberty of using it, my father's family also coming from the town of the ancestral seat, Kilkenny. :icon_smile_wink:
> However, the Irish Marquessate is extinct and has been since Walter died in 1820.
> And the British Marquessate is also extinct and has been since James H.T.C Butler (An American simply known as Charles Butler) died in 1997, aged 98. Charles' father was a rector in Kent. I'm not sure if it was Charles as an adult or his father who migrated to the US. But I think it was Charles because I seem to remember having read that Charles served in the British army for a while.
> 
> The Duchy was abolished in 1715 https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/History/Barons/ExtinctDukes.html


A fellow American friend of mine is friends with Piers James Richard Butler, 18th Viscount Mountgarret (b. 1961), who is believed to be the rightful Earl of Ormonde as well as Chief of the Irish Butlers, but hasnt pressed either claim as he is busy running shoots at his English estate to keep the inland revenue off his back.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

ToryBoy said:


> A British suit - bespoke and made on Savile Row.
> 
> Nothings interests me more in terms of traditional or national clothing.


Agreed, with pinstripes and bowler, but a tie with full Scottish rig.

Britain is ground zero for mens attire.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

DougNZ said:


> What a load of cobblers.
> 
> The kilt was a relatively late invention. Up until about 1500 the Gaels of Scotland and Ireland both wore a _leine _(a long, loose shirt, sometimes kilted and often dyed safron), and a _brat_ (plaid blanket). After this time, in Scotland, the blanket began to be folded (kilted) and belted about the waist with the top half arranged about the upper body in various manners. However, this _feileadh mhor,_ or great kilt, only lasted about 150 years. From about 1650 the top half was separated from the bottom half which had the folds stitched in, giving rise to the_ feileadh beg, _or small kilt, which is the kilt recognised today.
> 
> ...


Mel Gibson got a lot of things wrong, but he seems to have helped the propagandists at the SNP a bit. For one William Wallace was a lowlander and unlikley to have been sporting a kilt, in battle or otherwise.

Unfortunatly the Irish cant lay claim to much more than the fishermans sweater, kelly green trousers, and the patchwork flat cap. Or is that Irish-Americans?


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

nehru suits


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Those are not actually Indian wear. It's a sixties Western adaptation of the shervani (see original post) with the coat cut down to suit jacket length.

While there is an Indian waistcoat of that shape and length it is just that, a waistcoat. It does not have sleeves.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't care. I have seen that the the traditional Indian suit at their weddings is a Nehru suit or a Sherwani.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

The "Nehru suit" is not a traditional Indian garment. It may be worn by some Indians, yes, but that does not make it an example of national costume.

I know Americans who wear kimono. Does that make it American national dress? No.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

JibranK said:


> The "Nehru suit" is not a traditional Indian garment. It may be worn by some Indians, yes, but that does not make it an example of national costume.
> 
> I know Americans who wear kimono. Does that make it American national dress? No.


That's a stupid comparison. A Nehru suit will always be associated with India.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Sir... are you just trolling?


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Regardless, a Western interpretation of Indian style cannot be taken as an example of Indian national costume.

See the first post; it has a photo of Nehru himself wearing... a Shervani.

When Prime Minister Nehru wore suits, they were traditional Savile Row suits.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Tradition is dictated by history and usage. If a said type of clothing has penetrated down into the masses for centuries then one can regard it as *a form* of national costume.

Take for example the Qipao/Cheongsam/Magua worn by the Chinese today.



It is regarded today by Chinese themselves and Westerners as 'traditional Chinese costume' / 'national costume of China.' In fact, it is not of Han Chinese origin but Manchurian. In 1644 when the Manchurian's invaded China and replaced the Han-Ming Dynasty with the Man-Qing Dynasty, people were forced to wear Manchurian clothing as an act of political and social submission to the new rulers. Thus you get your stereotypical Chinese image of mandarin jackets and pigtails (queues); the so-called 'Queue Order'. In the 400 or so years, it has now been accepted as 'Chinese' even by the Han majority themselves as a de facto national clothing. The original costume, now called Hanfu, was consigned to history and is now considered a 'costume' rather than 'clothing.'

There are some Han Chinese who wants to revive Hanfu and restore it to its rightful status as national costume for the Han Chinese (like moi). But this is difficult because unless ordinary people accept HF, recognise it and wear it in ordinary life or to ceremonial events, that can never happen. 

So, even if the kilt/Nehru/etc are not historically 'traditional,' they are now by tradition of usage and recognition unless the whole population decides to reject it (which is highly unlikely).


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

I'm glad these distinctions came up. The kilt is a national dress, not costume. Costume would imply no longer in regular or funtional use.

PS: The Chinese chick above is a hottie!


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

How does costume imply no longer in regular use?


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*When in Rome . . .*

. . . I prefer to wear a toga:icon_smile_big:


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## F0x_Pr1nc3 (Mar 22, 2009)

Greetings!

As far as I can see, Hanfu revival movements is all about reviving the Han's clothings & costumes. But a a bit little thing is missing, the headdress & shoes!

Too much focus on the dress but forgot the shoes and headdress. I'm also the one that interested in Hanfu revival. But I'm frustrated to death, coz nobody is even concern with shoes, headdress (and hairpins for women).

Is there is someone out there who can help me? I'm on working to make a replica of shoes from different dynasties/era of ancient Han empires.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Regimental Drum Major of the Royal Irish Rangers in saffron kilt and wearing the caubeen, traditional headgear of Irish troops. The "royal" of course indicating that this, like the "Royal Irish Regiment" is a regiment of the British army and NOT of the IDF (Irish Defence Forces)


Actually, despite the caption, wouldn't he have to be a "pipe major" with that pipe in his mouth? I always thought "drum majors" were the ones with the great staffs marking time and leading the parade.



Earl of Ormonde said:


> Also another interesting fact is that tartans applying to individual clans is also a relatively new phenomena, apparently from as late as the 1700s.


My understanding is that the "Sobieski Stuart Brothers" perpetrated a huge and lucrative fraud on the Scottish gentry by claiming that they had a book, given them by their "cousin" Bonnie Prince Charlie which they never allowed anyone to see, recording all the clan tartans. They then proceeded to make said tartans for a fee to the delighted clansmen, who rushed to Caladonia-ize themselves prior to the Bobby Burns orchestrated state visit of George IV of England and Scotland in 1822, constituting the first by a reigning monarch since 1650.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Blueboy1938 said:


> Actually, despite the caption, wouldn't he have to be a "pipe major" with that pipe in his mouth? I always thought "drum majors" were the ones with the great staffs marking time and leading the parade.
> 
> My understanding is that the "Sobieski Stuart Brothers" perpetrated a huge and lucrative fraud on the Scottish gentry by claiming that they had a book, given them by their "cousin" Bonnie Prince Charlie which they never allowed anyone to see, recording all the clan tartans. They then proceeded to make said tartans for a fee to the delighted clansmen, who rushed to Caladonia-ize themselves prior to the Bobby Burns orchestrated state visit of George IV of England and Scotland in 1822, constituting the first by a reigning monarch since 1650.


It wasn't Robert Burns; it was Sir Walter Scott. Please do get your Scots history right. I say this because I suffer from Scott addiction; Burns has not worked with the same power for me.


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## bbcrock (Feb 13, 2009)

Literide said:


> A fellow American friend of mine is friends with Piers James Richard Butler, 18th Viscount Mountgarret (b. 1961), who is believed to be the rightful Earl of Ormonde as well as Chief of the Irish Butlers, but hasnt pressed either claim as he is busy running shoots at his English estate to keep the inland revenue off his back.


I spent part of my lifetime daydreaming about the title that got away (great grandfather was the youngest and didn't get the Lairdship, land and whatever pseudo-titles count amongst Scottish landowners with quasi-royal, semi-political responsibilities and moved to Canada first and later the US in the 19th Century) until I got a job where such foreign entanglements would have, well, disallowed me from holding my job. "Never looked back" and all that.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I am partial to the Phillipino Barong Tagalog:









and the Vietnamese Ao Dai:









Perry


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Blueboy1938 said:


> ...visit of George IV of England and Scotland in 1822, constituting the first by a reigning monarch since 1650.


In 1822 George IV was king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, which came into being in 1801 and lasted until 1922, when it became the present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The monarchs were "of England and Scotland" from 1603 to 1707 and "of Great Britain" from 1707 to 1801.


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

*I kinda like Norway.*

Nice basic dark and white schemes, with a splash of color on top.


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## bbcrock (Feb 13, 2009)

No one going to comment on American buckskin suede jackets? Amish hats?


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

bbcrock said:


> I spent part of my lifetime daydreaming about the title that got away (great grandfather was the youngest and didn't get the Lairdship, land and whatever pseudo-titles count amongst Scottish landowners with quasi-royal, semi-political responsibilities and moved to Canada first and later the US in the 19th Century) until I got a job where such foreign entanglements would have, well, disallowed me from holding my job. "Never looked back" and all that.


I would keep track of the old country relatives. Sometimes the sr. line dies out and a distant cousin becomes the Laird, Baron, Baronet, etc by default. One of the Fairfaxes of Virginia returned to Scotland after half a dozen generations to become Lord Fairfax.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

When I move to the UK, I plan on looking up some info about my family just as you say. Apparently a few of my Indian ancestors were given baronetcies at some point, so I'd love to see if I can claim the title


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Finnish national dress at:

https://www.kansallispuvut.fi/ 
https://www.kansallispukuneuvosto.fi/sivut/etusivu.htm


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