# Levis 501s: Really? Can Jeans be trad?



## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

I've been digging through the archives and reading the debates on jeans. Here are my thoughts:

1. Jeans just don't seem trad.

2. Levis would _initially_ appear trad, except that they've done what annoy trads most: moved production overseas and changed to a cheaper and cheaper material and construction.

3. Are 501's anywhere near what they once were?

Here's my thought: currently, I have like 6 pairs of Lucky jeans from when I worked for a department store. Since I'm a 30x30, I had to buy whatever came in. Even in "washes", they are American made and comfortable. Not tradly, but comfortable and, important, American.

I ask this not because I'm looking for approval of a future purchase, but I found a store in town selling shrink to fit Levis. Having fond memories of my old 80's 501s, I'm thinking of picking them up.

Here is your forum for threshing out tradliness of 501s, and whether or not the product being passed off as STF is worthy of my dollars.


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## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

I think Levi's is a prime example of a company that has successfully and responsibly made the transition to overseas production. It is my understanding that in jeans-freak circles 501 STFs are still the standard against which others are judged. I am not old enough to have worn the 'originals' but honestly I can't imagine how the current incarnation could possibly be improved upon. These are perfect jeans. (Note: I own 501 one-wash, not STFs.)


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## sclemmons (Mar 4, 2006)

I love 501's. Shrink to fit from the Levis.com site. The price is right and they last a long time and fit well. And look as good as they ever did with your topsiders and shetland sweaters. 

If I had the courage I would try a pair of the APC denim but they are 5x the money.


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## KCKclassic (Jul 27, 2009)

For the price, I don't think the 501stf's can be beat. I actually wore my recent pair in the bathtub, and while drying and now have the best fitting jeans of my life.:aportnoy: It was worth it.

For a slightly trimmer fit get them true to size in the waist. They don't shrink as much in the inseam, and tend to stretch back out rather quickly.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

Two minor clarifications in this thread: since I'm a 30 x 30, any advice on how to size appropriately? The instructions are rather vague.

Although I am totally going to do that bathtub trick, I remember that from back in the day. 

Wonder if there is more than one kind of STF? These seem inexpensive...


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

How "trad" they are I can't say, but I wore 501s as a child along with my trusty Converse All-Stars.










As an adult I wore 505s for years, but finally realized that Lee jeans were simply a better fit for me. I wish I had tried other brands of jeans earlier but for so many years I only wore Levis. Didn't even consider anything else. For the past 15 years I have been a devoted fan of Lee jeans. Of course I'm sure they aren't trad. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

Buy your regular waist size and size up in length. For a 30x30, buying 30x34 is about right.


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## beherethen (Jun 6, 2009)

If 501's were a UK product that had worn by some Duke 100 years ago, there would no question about their appropriateness. We don't respect and reverie our products in the same way.


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## mbebeau (Feb 6, 2009)

I think that 501's, black Converse all stars and a white OCBD with the sleeves rolled up is a perfect version of 'casual trad.' To me, the trad lifestyle means classic and effortless, what is more classic and effortless than jeans?


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## beherethen (Jun 6, 2009)

Maybe 30-40 years ago I had a layover in NYC and went to MOMA. So I'm seeing paintings-sculptures-the cafeteria had Danish beer and I half heartily flirted with a fat girl.
Then I came upon this amazing room with the permanent collection of objects that had by virtue of design had become art. There was a Swiss target handgun and an ice cream spoon. The notion that ordinary objects could also be art was a new idea for me. I'd always had that feeling but dismissed it thinking it was because I'd smoked too much grass.
The 501's are like these objects. They are plain simple and unpretentious American jeans. Yet ins some way they are perfect, in the way a Japanese thrown rice bowl can be perfect.
They were introduced in 1926 by H.D. Lee and in 1964 became part of the permanent collection of the Smithsonian Institution.
Are they "Trad"? Who knows. Are they part of our American cultural and collective spirit? Are they in a tiny way a reflection of who we as a people really are?
Well duh!


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

unmodern said:


> Buy your regular waist size and size up in length. For a 30x30, buying 30x34 is about right.


Unmodern nailed the sizing issue exactly - normal waist and about 3/4 inches longer than usual in length produces a nice, trim fit. This is what I did and the jeans came out perfect.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

beherethen said:


> Maybe 30-40 years ago I had a layover in NYC and went to MOMA. So I'm seeing paintings-sculptures-the cafeteria had Danish beer and I half heartily flirted with a fat girl.
> Then I came upon this amazing room with the permanent collection of objects that had by virtue of design had become art. There was a Swiss target handgun and an ice cream spoon. The notion that ordinary objects could also be art was a new idea for me. I'd always had that feeling but dismissed it thinking it was because I'd smoked too much grass.
> The 501's are like these objects. They are plain simple and unpretentious American jeans. Yet ins some way they are perfect, in the way a Japanese thrown rice bowl can be perfect.
> They were introduced in 1926 by H.D. Lee and in 1964 became part of the permanent collection of the Smithsonian Institution.
> ...


Beherethen, IMHO you have said it best, perfectly framing my thoughts regarding Levi 501's! Thank-you. :thumbs-up:


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

beherethen said:


> Maybe 30-40 years ago I had a layover in NYC and went to MOMA. So I'm seeing paintings-sculptures-the cafeteria had Danish beer and I half heartily flirted with a fat girl.
> Then I came upon this amazing room with the permanent collection of objects that had by virtue of design had become art. There was a Swiss target handgun and an ice cream spoon. The notion that ordinary objects could also be art was a new idea for me.


God Bless Raymond Loewy!!

I saw the travelling "Deco" show in London several years ago and was mezmorized by an outboard motor!!

In 1982 Levi jeans, LL Bean duck shoes, a white OCBD and a kelly green crew sweater was all the rage in "trad!!"

But I was 20 then. I rarely denim myself now.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't wear them too often, but here's me in a pair of 501 shrink-to-fit (usual waist + 3 in length)


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

How about sizing for us bigger guys. A few years ago Levis cut allowed me to where 38x34 in relaxed fit. Now I find in the same fit I have to size up to a 40 because they seem to be cut trimmer than the ones I bought a few years ago. Any size recommendations for the 501 STF for me? Would normal waist size still be appropriate for a guy with a bit longer rise and thicker thighs?


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I wear the one wash styles a lot. I usually get the "premium" washes that run a wopping $45 at Dillard's. I've thought about making the jump to STF. I buy the one washes in a 38x34 size and get them shortened 1 inch. So I should get 38x36 in the STF, correct? Also, what's the best way to shrink them? Do ya'll sit in the tub and then hang them up to dry?


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

I have a pair and wear them at least once a week, either Saturday or Sunday, with my tan corduroy sport coat. I don't know or care if they are Trad, but I like them well enough.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Often I have to smile when someone posts asking if one item or another is "Trad."

Who *exactly* determines what "Trad" is?

I don't see what I wear as a statement of some "Trad" tribe I belong to and I don't see American men dressing in traditional American men's clothing (*not to be confused with "Trad")* as some sort of Japanese like uber Trad club where most every detail is waaay over the top in terms of it's "Trad" correctness.

I have a closet full of 3/2 sack blazers, sport coats, and suits. I'll hazard a guess that I own twenty OBD shirts, countless pairs of flat front khakis and LHSs in several hues of calf and shell, the list goes on and on. But after reading many of the posts here at AAAC I have relaized that I am not "Trad."


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I wear Levi's 514s; for some reason they fit me much better than 501's, which on me look like mom jeans. 

I don't love Levi's; they're just fair. I have really liked some old models of Levis, but to my annoyance they always seemed to get discontinued.

I would like to find a darker, heavier denim than what Levi's offers, but which isn't stupidly expensive or fashion-forward looking.

We've covered the jeans discussion a millions times (and why not?), but I'll just say that jeans work really well with OCBD's and sport jackets under certain circumstances. The dark color really sings. Other pants that come in dark colors can look too stuffy sometimes.


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

beherethen said:


> If 501's were a UK product that had worn by some Duke 100 years ago, there would no question about their appropriateness. We don't respect and reverie our products in the same way.


I don't think this is true on this side of the forum, beherethen. American products, especially those still made in the U.S., are generally the most highly regarded over here.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> I have a closet full of 3/2 sack blazers, sport coats, and suits. I'll hazard a guess that I own twenty OBD shirts, countless pairs of flat front khakis and LHSs in several hues of calf and shell, the list goes on and on, but after reading many of the posts here at AAAC I have relaized that I am not "Trad."


My query was whether or not they fit into the general ethos of the idea of Trad, which, if there were not one, the forum would not exist.

However, should Trad actually be some sort of club, I would double check your wallet for your membership card. It sounds like you'd be in by default with that closet.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

"General" (as in "general ethos") is the word. Which is why there's no consensus on the jeans/trad question for which there are a whooole lot of threads here.


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

Joe's right, P&G. This is one of those discussions that will never come to a consensus, so you have to make the decision.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Joe Beamish said:


> I would like to find a darker, heavier denim than what Levi's offers, but which isn't stupidly expensive or fashion-forward looking.


Try Wrangler.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

Wrangler would be a good choice or even Pointer brand. They are still made in good ole Tennessee, but I don't know if they have that dark of a wash.


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## KCKclassic (Jul 27, 2009)

regarding sizing on the 501stf:

I prefer a slightly more fitted look in most of my clothing, so after some research opted to get them true to size in the waist (32) and about 3 inches too long in the leg (34). My inseam is right at a 31/32 so the loss of about 3 inches in length during the soak ended up being close, with a bit more length to lose when I finally do wash them. Truthfully, I could have even gone a size down through the waist, but I'll try that on my next pair. For a looser fit follow the printed guidelines, but remember that the waist will stetch out a bit while wearing.

I ran a nice warm bath, and after donning the denim comando style hopped in for about 30-40 mins with a decent read. I expected more of the dye to wear off, but mine stayed pretty dark. It seems that most of the shrinkage occurs in the first 10-15 mins. of the soak so I may have over-done it. Afterwords I wrapped myself in a long, old towel and sat it out for quite some time. When they were about half dry, and molded to my body, I finally took them off and let them hang dry. When done, they still were stiff enough to stand on their own.

I had been looking at some of the more expensive denim brands, APC et al. but decided on the 501 out of convenience, price, and possibly some warped sense of american heritage.

Its amazing how well they shrank. I knew they were the best fitting jeans I had as soon as I put them on. Overall they have been one of the best purchases I've made and I will definitely pick up another pair.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

dwebber18 said:


> They are still made in good ole Tennessee


So was my Nissan Altima. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

See Cruiser you understand! Good stuff from TN, Jack, Altimas and my wife(not necessarily in that order)


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

unmodern said:


> I think Levi's is a prime example of a company that has successfully and *responsibly* made the transition to overseas production.


OK, you're elected to carry this message to all the folks here in San Antonio who were laid off from good jobs at our two Levis factories when the company decided to send production off-shore.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

KCKclassic said:


> regarding sizing on the 501stf:
> 
> I prefer a slightly more fitted look in most of my clothing, so after some research opted to get them true to size in the waist (32) and about 3 inches too long in the leg (34). My inseam is right at a 31/32 so the loss of about 3 inches in length during the soak ended up being close, with a bit more length to lose when I finally do wash them. Truthfully, I could have even gone a size down through the waist, but I'll try that on my next pair. For a looser fit follow the printed guidelines, but remember that the waist will stetch out a bit while wearing.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your sizing info on this. Too bad though, if I'll loose 3-4 inches from the inseam that means I have to look for 38" length which I'm sure will be difficult to find. Such is my life


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

dwebber18 said:


> Thanks for your sizing info on this. Too bad though, if I'll loose 3-4 inches from the inseam that means I have to look for 38" length which I'm sure will be difficult to find. Such is my life


Try www.levi.com for your stilt-length legs.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

I think I'm going to try on a pair for waist and thigh fit before probably ordering the length. And yes I have long legs and even longer arms. Its always party time when I actually find a shirt that can accomodate my arms without making it look like I'm wearing a tent.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

You have convinced me of their usefulness and quality.

I'll be picking up a pair tomorrow. It will be interesting at best to wear them wet in January...


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

Is it ok to bleach them a little to speed up the lightening process?


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Love Levis but I'm more of a 514 person, also. Tough to find well fitting jeans being 31x34, and these fit the bill. They also come in a wash dark enough to not look as if it's 1985


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## Dashiell.Valentine (Dec 18, 2008)

This is a great thread for me. I am jeans impaired. I pretty much wear suits daily, but I really want to have a pair of jeans as a casual option. Because of this same warped commitment to nostalgia, I only want 501s.

I bought a pair at JCP this summer but they fit me horrendously. I'm also hoping for advice. I have a strange build, apparently. I was a trapeze artist and I'm not sure how much that's altered my physiology. I have long-ish legs, a very short torso, and stocky thighs/butt. I'm fairly lean, though. Something like 5'9" and 165.

I bought a pair of 34/34 (I wanted to be able to put a big cuff on the legs, 34 was the longest option). The waist is a little loose. The butt is comically saggy. The thighs/crotch fit like a vise. And the legs aren't long enough for a good wide cuff.

I'm willing to order from the website, also even willing to sit in a bathtub if necessary. Would shrink to fit work for me? Or are 501s just out the question for me? Thanks, as always, for any and all advice.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

gtsecc said:


> Is it ok to bleach them a little to speed up the lightening process?


You shouldn't need to bleach them, but just soak them for longer periods and they'll gradually lighten.



Dashiell.Valentine said:


> This is a great thread for me. I am jeans impaired. I pretty much wear suits daily, but I really want to have a pair of jeans as a casual option. Because of this same warped commitment to nostalgia, I only want 501s.
> 
> I bought a pair at JCP this summer but they fit me horrendously. I'm also hoping for advice. I have a strange build, apparently. I was a trapeze artist and I'm not sure how much that's altered my physiology. I have long-ish legs, a very short torso, and stocky thighs/butt. I'm fairly lean, though. Something like 5'9" and 165.
> 
> ...


Definitely try the shrink-to-fits. The stfs are always fairly trim, but because they mold to your body shape they feel extremely comfortable. In your case because you don't want the extra material around the waist and your rear, I'd buy your normal waist size and then buy the longest inseam you can find because you seem to want lots of material for cuffs. All shrink to fits will lose about 3 inches in length when being soaked for the first time.


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## Dashiell.Valentine (Dec 18, 2008)

Thank you for the above advice. 

Since they are shrink to fit, am I right to expect that the thighs might be a little roomier than their pre-shrunk counterparts? Or might 501s simply always be too tight in the thigh for me?

And also, is there any advantage to soaking and wearing my pre-shrunk jeans to try to take up the slack in the seat? Or does pre-shrunk indicate that it is already shrunk to the maximum degree?

Thanks again. I really am hoping to sort this "jeans" thing out.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Dashiell.Valentine said:


> Since they are shrink to fit, am I right to expect that the thighs might be a little roomier than their pre-shrunk counterparts? Or might 501s simply always be too tight in the thigh for me?
> 
> And also, is there any advantage to soaking and wearing my pre-shrunk jeans to try to take up the slack in the seat? Or does pre-shrunk indicate that it is already shrunk to the maximum degree?


First, soaking your pre-shrunk jeans will have no effect on their size since they've already been washed a number of times.

Second, the relative tightness of the thighs on 501 stfs is a relative thing. They are definitely trim (see the pic of mine earlier in this thread), but they don't strike me as particularly tight. For reference, we are of a similar size - I'm 5'11" and 170lbs and my pair of stfs are 34x34 (shrank to 34x31). If nothing else, 501 shrink to fits can usually be had for $30 or less and it's fun to experiment.


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## Dashiell.Valentine (Dec 18, 2008)

I do appreciate the advice, and I think that I'll give a pair a try.


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## Gromson (Oct 11, 2009)

Echoing what others have said.

Two weeks ago I got a new pair of STF 501s. I followed the recommended sizing and I'm not overly thrilled with the total amount that was shrunk. They didn't shrink quite enough in the waist for me and are a big more baggy than I desired. I've tried an extra shrink in the sink with boiling water and even put them in a hot dryer but they are still a bit too baggy. This isn't to say they are comically baggy like wanna be gansta pants, just more of a 'relaxed' fit than I desired. If you want the 'relaxed' fit look, follow the size guidelines on the label. For the fitted look, order true to size on the waist and the directed guidelines for the length.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Hookem, do you go with the shrink-to-fit version of 514s? I haven't tried those yet....


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Joe Beamish said:


> Hookem, do you go with the shrink-to-fit version of 514s? I haven't tried those yet....


I had no idea they existed. Now I have to find them. For anyone that finds the 501s too baggy, I have heard it suggested that some of the slimmer cut jeans (such as the 514) are more similar to the fit of old 501s than the current version. I'm not sure how true that is, but I would suggest trying the slimmer cuts


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## Dashiell.Valentine (Dec 18, 2008)

I went to a store here in Paris this afternoon that sells Levis and Converse sneakers and such. It's far from a high end store. Anyhow the bi-annual sales are on right now and the jeans are marked down around 50%. The crazy thing is that they still cost 75 Euros a pair (over 100 dollars)! 

So, it will be online for me, thank you.

Additionally, I played around on the Levi's site today and am confused as to why the size options are more limited on their own website, then say, on Amazon? Any ideas about that? It would seem to me like the website should have all available options, but that seems not to be the case.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Hookem, I made the (perhaps faulty) assumption there were shrink-to-fit 514s....they may not exist! 

I agree...in fit the 514s, although called "straight" and "slim", are analogous to the BB "slim fit" OCBDs. They're not really "slim", just normal.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

Just brought home a pair of STF. I chose a 32 x 33, hoping the 31 will fit OK. The normal 30 in Levis is just a tad snug (guess Lucky is more stretchy). 

I bring them in and my wife says something like "I remember those. If you get water all over my house after the 'bath tub trick' I'll kill you."

Hmm. Maybe time for a "work outside day"?


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

^^ You're wife's comment made me laugh out loud. I remember my wife seeing me sitting in the bathtub in navy blue water with my 501s on and telling me I looked ridiculous :icon_smile_big:


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

My wife would no doubt say the same thing. I told her I wanted to try a pair and she asked how you shrink them right? So I told her you have to sit in a bathtub for like 30 minutes and she just gave me a horrid look and said that would be terrible, haha. Guess I should have told her I'd have to go commando, then the look would have been even worse.


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

Mine's out of town for the week, and after three Martinis and a horrible (for me) lunch, I can't help to think how much better she makes me just being around her.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

If mine would leave for a week I'd certainly have an easier time of shrinking jeans and buying British jackets. 

But agreed Coleman, they make us better. Now I just hope I don't have to clean the blue dye out of the tub.


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## Youngster (Jun 5, 2008)

I wear the Mexican made 501 STFs, and I think they're the best jeans for the price. However, I did splurge and get a pair of the Levi's capital E's in unwashed dark denim. Even on sale they were still twice the price of full price STFs. However they look better without being fashiony, and are still American made. They don't look twice as good as 501's nor are they twice as well made. But they are somewhat better in both respects, and the remaining difference in made up in the mere fact that you are supporting an American worker. I keep my Capital E's looking nice to go out in, and treat my 501's as jeans were meant to be treated. If you still have all those Lucky's however, remember that as long as they fit well and don't have washes that are too tacky, they are still perfectly respectable. Wear your American made denim proudly!


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## cazoo (Jan 29, 2009)

I don't know if this is old news but "American Made" Levi's is sort of a loop hole. In early 2000 they had some unpleasantness with being the last American hold out with refusal to change their practices with their factory in Saipan, a US commonwealth. Technically made in America but their labor practices were no different from say using a factory in China. 

I believe things are much better and the lawsuit has been resolved but it does leave a bad taste in my mouth when I think of a company whose jeans (501s) I've worn almost much of my life would try to hide behind a technicality.


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## The Raven (Nov 7, 2006)

Pink and Green said:


> 3. Are 501's anywhere near what they once were?


They are exactly what they once were. It is the world around them that has changed.

They are American traditional clothing when worn when it is appropriate to wear jeans.


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## Dashiell.Valentine (Dec 18, 2008)

I agree that the outsourcing of Levis (of all things!) is infuriating. Even more so since more and more data is becoming available that these outsourcing decisions, in the long run, wind up costing companies more than they save since the small savings in labor costs are trivial next to the decreases in productivity and quality, among other things. -- [Source: "Human Equation," Harvard Business School Press, Jeffery Pfeffer]

Are there any solid, classic, domestic brands of jeans?

Preshrunk 501s don't really fit me in the thighs/crotch (I'd take a 33w, but have chubby thighs...wait...I mean...massive quads...yeah...at any rate, whatever they are, they're 22 inches...each).

STF seems like a lot of hassle, and I'm not sure how they'd fit.

And the 559s which are relaxed in the thighs and crotch don't have the button fly or the nostalgic appeal.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to make Levis work for me or not, but I'd like to.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

This thread reminds me why I don't own blue jeans.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

Dashiell.Valentine said:


> Are there any solid, classic, domestic brands of Jeans?


pointer brand are made in Tennessee. I think they have 2 fits and 1 wash so you are limited and lucky brand is still made in the US


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> This thread reminds me why I don't own blue jeans.


The the years that I wore STF jeans (1955-75) I never did the bathtub routine, nor did I know anyone who did. We just bought the things in a larger size than we wore and threw them in the wash to let them shrink; then we squeezed into them and wore them forever.

Length was no problem as we always bought them long and rolled them up if they were too long (50's-early/mid 60's) and then in the late 60's-70's we usually just cut them off at the right length with a pair of scissors. Today, if I couldn't get the length correct off the rack, I would buy them long and have them hemmed to the right length after they had shrunk.

To me jeans should be about the simplest item of clothing that one owns.

Cruiser


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> This thread reminds me why I don't own blue jeans.


Ditto.


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## The Style of Brian (Nov 27, 2009)

Levis are an American classic. They are quintessential American Trad, in my humble opinion. I'm sure most of you can recall pleasant images of famous and non-famous people fashionably, yet comfortably, wearing their Levis in old pictures. Now that's Trad to me. But, I do concede that they are should only be worn when appropriate - and Trad people should hopefully know when those moments are present!

Unfortunately, the marketing of jeans seems to have taken a kind of grungy, unwashed image in the last few decades, a change of image that sadly tarnishes the innocent, casual fashion feel of days-of-old. 

BTW, my Levi's of choice is the 505, the 501 is just too tight for my taste (and body type). But, I too must confess, that I haven't tried on very many of Levis competitor's jeans...which I may in the future just for the sake of comparison.


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## Youngster (Jun 5, 2008)

Does anyone know if the Levi's marked as USA made are still manufactured under such circumstances? I would be horrified if mine were made in Asia. That's much less American than Mexico!


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