# Savile Row Tailors



## medwards

Given the number of enquiries about information on Savile Row (and a few somewhat off-the-Row) tailors, I thought this list of websites might be of some interest. I would hope others would add to this listing...and add their comments and experiences. Of course, not all of the Row's tailors have active websites. Missing, for instance, is my own tailor, *Fallan & Harvey* among a number of others.

*Anderson & Sheppard*: https://www.anderson-sheppard.co.uk/ --After years of shunning the Internet, has begun 2006 with a new website with a decidedly modern look. Steadfastly single-minded in its approach, this is the Row's leading exponent and purveyor of the soft suit. Some swear by it; some swear at it...but there is no question that A&S remains a major force. Clad Prince Charles in its double-breasteds for years.

*Richard Anderson*: -- former Huntsman cutter who some on this Forum think is now more Huntsman than Huntsman; recently acquired one of the Row's oldest firms, *Strickland and Sons*

*Benson & Clegg*: https://www.bensonandclegg.com/ -- just off the Row, George VI's tailor, traditional in a rather cosmopolitan sort of way, noted for their evening wear, rather reasonably priced and fine array of buttons and badges

*Ozwald Boateng*: -- fashion-forward, lots of colour, unique, this isn't your father's Savile Row...or maybe it is. Boateng is now celebrating his 25th year on the Row.

*Tom Brown*: -- Over 200 years of service to Old Etonians, history and tradition run high both at Eton and on Sackville Street

*Byrne & Burge*: www.byrneandburge.com -- Savile Row-trained husband and wife team located in St. George Street. Known to add a bit of zip to classic styling.

*Chester Barrie*: https://www.chesterbarrie.co.uk/ -- has opened a new store in the Row, handtailoring but not necessarily bespoke

*Comelie London*:  www.comelielondon.com -- a relative newcomer having set up shop in 2004, said to be commited to classic standards

*Davies & Son*: -- venerable firm given new life by Alan Bennett and the acquisition of several noted firms including *Johns & Pegg*, *James & James*, and *Wells*; classic silhouette

*Dege-Skinner*: https://www.dege-skinner.co.uk/ -- a long history with a strong military/equestrian tone and a preference for a real shape with a noticable waist and fuller coat at the chest and hips yet surprisingly flexible in meeting customer wants and needs, well regarded and visited for their country clothes

*Timothy Everest*: https://www.timothyeverest.co.uk/ --former Nutter apprentice now among the leaders of the "New Bespoke" movement

*Gieves & Hawkes*: https://www.gievesandhawkes.com/ -- impressively housed at #1 Savile Row, lots of military history and with major forays into ready-to-wear

*Hardy Amies*: -- was a major figure in British fashion -- dressmaker to the Queen; costume designer for 2001: A Space Odyssey; knighted in 1989. Amies retired in 2002 and died a year later, but the firm continued as an international fashion house with a flagship presence in Savile Row. After years of financial losses, the company announced that it would go into administration in October 2008. It was subsequently purchased by Fung Capital Europe, the private investment arm of Hong Kong's Li & Fung.

*Anthony Hewitt*: -- housed *Vincents of Savile Row*, now owns *Airey & Wheeler* as well

*Stephen Hitchcock*: https://www.stevenhitchcock.co.uk/ -- former Anderson & Sheppard apprentice now making soft suits on his own. You can find his blog at

*H. Huntsman*: -- said to have the Row's top prices and still making a very sleek but firm signature one-button coat

*James & James* (incorporated into Davies & Son): -- noted for acquisition of Scholte's business and later advocacy of fusing, now nicely housed in Davies with its more traditional methods

*Richard James*: -- a leader of the "new" Savile Row, jazzy fashions, RJMan can comment
*
Johns & Pegg*: (incorporated into Davies & Son): -- longstanding and noted military tailors; Scholte was a cutter there!

*Kilgour*: https://www.8savilerow.com/ and its new site at www.kilgour.eu/ -- a strong pedigree yet the former *Kilgour, French & Stanbury* can be quite contemporary and international in approach with a modest approach to shape

*Thomas Mahon*: https:// www.ThomasMahon.co.uk -- former Anderson & Sheppard staffer now based in Cumbria and tailoring stylishly on his own; his blog (https://www.englishcut.com/) has given him a voice -- and us some insights -- on the Row and its denizens

*Manning & Manning*: https://www.manning-and-manning.com/ -- won an Emmy for costume design; historically very flexible in approach; has moved more and more to made-to-measure

*Meyer & Mortimer*: -- long history with roots going back to Beau Brummell, later the military wing of Jones, Chalk and Dawson

*Norton & Sons*: -- dates back to the early nineteenth century, classic English country look, but recently sold and now under new ownership

*John Pearse*: -- Soho-based, avant garde (at least to my eye)

*Henry Poole*: https://www.henrypoole.com/ -- virtually synonomous with Savile Row, now celebrating its 200th anniversary: classic timeless quality

*Mark Powell*: -- a bit eccentric with a touch of the East End in his styling, lots of film folks among the clientele

*Maurice Sedwell*: -- the well-regarded Andrew Ramroop presides over this house still making well-bred suits and quality garments with a keen attention to detail but willing to be quite adventurous in terms of look and style

*Stowers Bespoke*: www.stowersbespoke.co.uk Gieves and Hawkes veteran Ray Stowers has set up shop along with Gieves and Huntsman vets Brian Pusey and Brian Jeffery in James Levett's old premises.

*Wells * (incorporated into Davies & Son): -- once one of the Row's biggest tailoring houses; now a nice fit at Davies

*Welsh & Jefferies*: https://www.welshandjefferies.com/ Highly regarded maker of the Prince of Wales' military uniforms, soon to celebrate its 100th anniversary, rather traditional in approach and look, incorporates the venerable *Leslie & Roberts*, who had dressed Rudolph Valentino, Clark Gable, Cary Cooper, and Bing Crosby.


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## Sam Hober

Medwards,

Thank you for the resource list. I appreciate the time you took to put it together and post it.

David Hober

Handcrafted pocket squares & neckties have spirit and character.


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## RJman

Comments though no firsthand bespoke experience

Steed: www.steed.co.uk -- Tom Mahon's former partner Edwin Deboise. Not sure why Patrick Macnee hasn't sued them.

Denman & Goddard www.denman-goddard.co.uk -- proud of their "house tie" as used by Harry Pendel

Ede & Ravenscroft www.edeandravenscroft.co.uk -- robe makers since 1689; bespoke tailors although they seem mostly to provide RTW and MTM as well as legal attire.

Billings & Edmonds www.billingsandedmonds.co.uk -- school tailors

Charlie Allen www.charlieallen.co.uk

Segun Adelaja www.segunadelaja.co.uk -- worked for Ozwald Boateng, but appears to be more of a real tailor

Nick Tentis www.nicktentis.com

Norton & Sons www.nortonandsons.co.uk -- was up for sale earlier, may be defunct

Spencer Hart www.spencerhart.co.uk -- worked for Timothy Everest and Chester Barrie, but not a tailor.

Chester Barrie www.chesterbarrie.co.uk -- not sure whether they actually do bespoke although their website intimates they do -- thought it would just be the Cheshire Clothing MTM. Attempting to appeal to wider audience with "White Label" fused clothing.

Tobias Davis www.tobiastailors.co.uk -- formerly on the Row

Edward Sexton www.worldpub.com/2/sexton/ -- world's worst publicity, very surprising for a man who used to employ a New York PR to alert the gossip columns whenever he came into town.

Medwards, what about Pendel & Braithwaite?

-- l'homme-RJ


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## Lucky

Medwards..thanks for compiling this useful listing...I would point out that www.englishcut.com is Thomas Mahon's blog..his website is www.ThomasMahon.co.uk Also, I would point out that a few months ago I did see an Anderson & Sheppard website, although it consisted of nothing more than their address and telephone number..I have tried to find the site web address again but have been unable to locate it


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by Lucky_
> 
> Medwards..thanks for compiling this useful listing...I would point out that www.englishcut.com is Thomas Mahon's blog..his website is www.ThomasMahon.co.uk Also, I would point out that a few months ago I did see an Anderson & Sheppard website, although it consisted of nothing more than their address and telephone number..I have tried to find the site web address again but have been unable to locate it


Thanks, Lucky. I've made that adjustment. I too had seen -- and can no longer find -- the A&S page, which was indeed just an address. I'll keep hunting.

note: In January 2006, A&S launched a new website. The initial post in this thread has now been updated to reflect this.


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> Medwards, what about Pendel & Braithwaite?


I'm afraid I don't get to Panama City too often.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

And they say bespoke is dying!!!! That's quite a list. Perhaps it can be saved somewhere for future reference. I take it the search function is still a bit under the weather. 

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by mulberrywood_
> 
> Medwards, Thank you for the resource list. I appreciate the time you took to put it together and post it. David Hober


Thank you, David. And thank you, RJMan, for your wonderful additions.


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## nation

Mr. Edwards:

Again, thank you so much for your contribution to this board.

Further, owing to your knowledge, civility, intellect and demeanor here, I was shocked (shocked, I say!) at your revelation that you are a mere 37 years old. Many of us here aspire to be gentlemen; You have certainly accomplished that.


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by nation_
> 
> Mr. Edwards:
> 
> Again, thank you so much for your contribution to this board.
> 
> Further, owing to your knowledge, civility, intellect and demeanor here, I was shocked (shocked, I say!) at your revelation that you are a mere 37 years old. Many of us here aspire to be gentlemen; You have certainly accomplished that.


Thank you for your kind words. However, I haven't seen 37 for twenty years. I'm a mere 57.


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## maxnharry

Thanks Medwards. Maybe we can have this posted at the top of the forum in a FAQ?


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## nation

Thank God your 57. I still have 4 years to catch up.


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## Fashionslave

Thanks so much,Medwards and RJMan for the extremely valuable source lists!You can't buy info like that! Cheers!


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by Lucky_
> 
> a few months ago I did see an Anderson & Sheppard website, although it consisted of nothing more than their address and telephone number..I have tried to find the site web address again but have been unable to locate it


Apparently *Anderson & Sheppard * discontinued that site when they moved from 30 Savile Row to their new premises at 32 Old Burlington Street.

added note: Anderson & Sheppard has now launched a new site which provides a tour of their new premises. The link is now included in the first message in this thread.

added added note: A&S is now recrafting their website once again, which is expected to be up and running in early 2007.


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> And thank you, RJMan, for your wonderful additions.


Sir,
I only shamble in the footsteps of the Master.

-- l'homme-RJ


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## whittaker_brown

Just a couple of additions:

Souster & Hicks: -- now joined forces with Denman & Goddard which incorporated Hicks & Sons (est 1797) to form Souster & Hicks.

Lutwyche: https://www.lutwyche.co.uk/ -- "off-Row", one of the new Soho crowd along with Tom Baker and Chris Kerr.


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## RJman

Other notable British tailors without websites include:

Douglas Hayward* (famous since the 1960s, and seen in _The Italian Job_ suiting up Michael Caine)

Anderson & Sheppard

John N Kent - tailors to HRH the Duke of Edinburgh, formerly associated with a certain tailor of notoriety.

Welsh & Jefferies - military tailors with a warrant still

Meyer & Mortimer - ditto

Richard W Paine - took over Bond tailor Anothny Sinclair's business.

Peter Moore - discussed recently on the forum

James Levett - makes the bespoke suits sold at Richard James as well. Formerly of Anthony J Hewitt.

John Lester -- works out of Harvie and Hudson

John de Boise - travels with H&K

Brian Russell -- ex A&S tailor.

Not sure if Joce or Scherer & Nilsson are still around. I believe Anthony J Hewitt grafted itself into Airey & Wheeler. Hewitt was a noted tailor who recently offered a scented suit with little packets of scent that would perfume the wearer when warmed by the body. He also made the first RJ bespoke suits. Hewitt bought famous colonial tailors Airey and Wheeler, famous for safari tailoring and the like. I believe now that Evisu has moved into their space on the Row, and may even be offering some form of bespoke using their services. Ugh.

I think Souster & Hicks may be purely MTM, Denman's effort at a cheaper, more accessible operation.

I believe Lutwyche may also be only MTM although I am not sure. Former decorated soldier, first gained notoriety when his posh wife left him, then again for offering an ad campaign for his suits in terrible taste featuring homeless derelicts in various acts of dereliction wearing his outfits.

One note. Kilgour relaunched itself by lopping off its two secondary names, having Peter Saville (har-har) redesign its logo (I believe RJ did so first) and redoing its shop. However, its website hasn't been updated for the autumn season yet, whereas they updated it for the previous two seasons. I wonder how well the relaunch is going. The new suits are made in China, ostensibly to a high spec, and emphasis is on its Chinese-made full bespoke, which is about half the price of its British-made bespoke.
-- l'homme-RJ

*moderator's note: Douglas Hayward died April 2, 2008 at the age of 73


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> I'm afraid I don't get to Panama City too often.


Yes, I guess I haven't seen any promos for _Medwards Gone Wild_...

-- l'homme-RJ


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## bry2000

Medwards, that is a great list. One obvious omission is Chittleborough & Morgan, who sublet space at Sedwell's shop on Savile Row. C&M do not have a website, but deserve mention among the best on the Row. 

Another off the Row tailor is John Coggin, the ex-cutter at now defunct Tobias Tailor.


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by bry2000_
> 
> Medwards, that is a great list. One obvious omission is Chittleborough & Morgan, who sublet space at Sedwell's shop on Savile Row. C&M do not have a website, but deserve mention among the best on the Row. Another off the Row tailor is John Coggin, the ex-cutter at now defunct Tobias Tailor.


Yes indeed that was an oversight, though when I think of *Chittleborough & Morgan* I can't help but think of the old Nutter door at 35a. I believe C&M had a City branch, *Castles*, that continues as well.

This thread on *Tobias Tailor *and *John Coggin* might also be of interest.


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## Son of Beau Brummell

Medwards, thanks for the list.

It's good to see that despite the songs of gloom and doom, bespoke still lives!

Mark Seitelman
www.seitelman.com


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## Andre Yew

> quote:_Originally posted by Lucky_
> 
> I would point out that www.englishcut.com is Thomas Mahon's blog..his website is www.ThomasMahon.co.uk


This is interesting that there should be a distinction between the two. Do you know what the best way to contact Thomas is? I sent an email to his Gmail account listed on his blog about a week ago to make an appointment for his next US visit, and haven't heard back from him yet.

Thanks also to Medwards for putting together this list --- I had not idea there were so many Savile Row tailors.

--Andre

edit: I got an email message from Thomas's webmaster (using the English Cut Gmail account) indicating that Thomas was travelling quite a bit right now and is a little behind his email, so there's really nothing to worry about --- just bad timing on my part.


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## hmhill

> quote:_Originally posted by RJMan_
> believe Anthony J Hewitt grafted itself into Airey & Wheeler. Hewitt was a noted tailor who recently offered a scented suit with little packets of scent that would perfume the wearer when warmed by the body. He also made the first RJ bespoke suits. Hewitt bought famous colonial tailors Airey and Wheeler, famous for safari tailoring and the like. I believe now that Evisu has moved into their space on the Row, and may even be offering some form of bespoke using their services. Ugh.


I was wondering about Anthony J Hewitt. My one and only Savile Row suit was made by him in 1986 when I was on vacation. I had wanted a A&S but since they didn't take credit cards I didn't think I could afford them--I'm a poor librarian. So a guide book on the British Caledonia plane recommended Vincents of #10 Savile Row, so I walked in and instead meet with Mr. Hewitt and Mr. Levett-who did the measuring. They measured me that day and I went back later in the week for a fitting. The price was 595 pounds or about $775 in 1986.

RJMan how would you describe house style?

Medwards, thanks for the list.

Max


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## medwards

Thank you, Andre. I believe the general email address for *Thomas Mahon* is [email protected] <[email protected]>, but some of his customers may have a more direct way of reaching him.

I should note that in a strict sense not all of the above named tailors are really Savile Row, but I believe the inclusion of those London craftsman not too distant from the formal area is a helpful addition to this listing.


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## Andre Yew

Thanks Medwards. I just tried the thomasmahon.co.uk address, and will report back what happens. London seems like a dangerous place for one's bank account!

--Andre

edit: I got an email message from Thomas's webmaster (using the English Cut Gmail account) indicating that Thomas was travelling quite a bit right now and is a little behind his email, so there's really nothing to worry about --- just bad timing on my part.


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## Lucky

Andre Yew.....Thomas Mahon, per prior comments in his blog, encourages potential clients to contact him via his mobile phone at +44 (0) 7811 388 536.........Also, his work phone number is listed as +44 (0) 1228 561 700


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## medwards

You're welcome, Andre. I do hope it works out. 

In terms of the number of bespoke makers, Richard Walker's 1988 history of Savile Row included a directory of 54 Savile Row tailors (many of which incorporated additional old firms) and 16 or so tailors off the Row that he felt were closely associated enough to warrant mention.


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> In terms of the number of bespoke makers, Richard Walker's 1988 history of Savile Row included a directory of 54 Savile Row tailors (many of which incorporated additional old firms) and 16 or so tailors off the Row that he felt were closely associated enough to warrant mention.


Although surveying the list now one feels a bit like Haig in 1916 looking over the casualty lists...

-- l'homme-RJ


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by hmhill_
> I was wondering about Anthony J Hewitt. My one and only Savile Row suit was made by him in 1986 when I was on vacation. I had wanted a A&S but since they didn't take credit cards I didn't think I could afford them--I'm a poor librarian. So a guide book on the British Caledonia plane recommended Vincents of #10 Savile Row, so I walked in and instead meet with Mr. Hewitt and Mr. Levett-who did the measuring. They measured me that day and I went back later in the week for a fitting. The price was 595 pounds or about $775 in 1986.
> Max


Hewitt does have a website. You can find it here:

*Anthony Hewitt*:

and the *Airey & Wheeler * connection:

https://www.classicwardrobe.co.uk/bromleys/tabID__3343/DesktopDefault.aspx

<<Note: I've also added the Anthony Hewitt link to the topmost message above to make it easier to locate in the future>>


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_Anthony Hewitt: and the Airey & Wheeler connection: https://www.classicwardrobe.co.uk/bromleys/tabID__3343/DesktopDefault.aspx


Sigh... and now they are "new Evisu friends":

Evisu to open Savile Row shop

The hip denim label Evisu will be opening a boutique on 9 Savile Row on 15 September. The Japanese brand is planning to offer bespoke tailoring in its new boutique. Evisu's founder and tailor/designer Hidehiko Yamane, a trained tailor who has always been obsessed by denim, launched the brand in 1991.

For his new Savile Row boutique he plans to start offering customers a full bespoke service, working with Airey and Wheeler, the label that has been supplying to the Foreign Office, Civil Service and the Military since it 1883. Airey and Wheeler are the previous occupants of the space now used by Evisu, so the connection is quite logical. The boutique will, however, also offer the full Evisu range, including rare items from Japan .

www.evisu.com
7 September 2005

-- l'homme-RJ


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## byoloye

RJMan and medwards, many thanks for compiling this extensive list. I think this thread should be a "sticky". 

BTW, John N Kent trades from 16 Savile Row. Last time I walked down the street, I got the impression that John Kent and Stephen Lacther (the bespoke shirt maker) had now taken over Norton & Sons old premises. Could be wrong.

Regards,
Bolaji


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## hmhill

Medwards,

Thanks for the website of Anthony J Hewitt. I try a few times to find one but without any luck. I wore the suit on special occasions until I gained too much weight but since I discovered I was diabetic and I loss some weight I can almost fit into it although it is probably needs to be let out about a inch or two.

Max


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## pertch

First of all, many congratulations to medwards and RJman for compiling such a comprehensive list.

I'd like to add 2 firms regarding the premises of 6 Sackville Street. Jones, Chalk & Dawson are the original occupants, since then it was joined by Ward & Kruger and Meyer & Mortimer (already mentioned by medwards & RJman). And of course Tom Brown and Brian Russell moved in from Princes Street about 2-3 years ago as well.

Other tailors well worth mention:

Hackett: www.hackett.com - though not sure whether they have in house tailors or just out-sourcing.

Redwood & Feller: www.redwoodandfeller.co.uk - Westminster based and have a royal warrant.

Couch & Hoskin: www.couchandhoskin.co.uk - probably the best in the City of London.

Graham Browne - another City of London based tailor whose garments are Savile Row standard.

Connock & Lockie - Holborn based, house style is quite Huntsman- like.


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by pertch_
> 
> Other tailors well worth mention:
> Redwood & Feller: www.redwoodandfeller.co.uk - Westminster based and have a royal warrant.
> Couch & Hoskin: www.couchandhoskin.co.uk - probably the best in the City of London.
> Graham Browne - another City of London based tailor whose garments are Savile Row standard.
> Connock & Lockie - Holborn based, house style is quite Huntsman- like.


In which case, also remember:

Redmayne -- where Tom Mahon earned his stripes, also Royal-Warranted
GD Golding
Perdells -- Andrey Bokhanko on LL is quite a fan
George Goddard -- www.goddards-tailoring.co.uk

Kashket & Partners -- warranted as uniform makers, not tailors; the nice Mr Metzger at Highcliffe in DC advertises them as "Savile Row tailors" and offers their bespoke services out of his shop. For the record, they're based in Hoxton, nowhere near the Row, and I'm not sure how their bespoke is; their website does push it though.

And let's not forget...

Company:	JOHN ANDERSON HIRE LTD
Grantor:	HM The Queen - Privy Purse
Legend: Hire of Portable Toilets
Web Site:	www.superloo.co.uk

-- l'homme-RJ


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## archduke

RJ
I missed the discussion about Peter Moore. Was always interested in his work after seeing the photo of him in the book: The Savile Row Story. What is the thread titled?

( Still can't get A&S out of my head but lack of funds helps resist the temptation)


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## medwards

archduke: Here's the discussion that Pertch began on *Peter Moore* in October. It is a good addition to this thread:


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## Fabrizio

This is awesome. Many thanks, gentlemen.

Andy - I think this qualifies as reference material. Any chance of a "sticky"?

Carmine


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## RJman

Gentlemen:

I fear that we are in danger of swerving headlong into the Anglo-mania of whcih the Brits always reproach us Yanks -- that is to say, we are listing every known reputable (qualify as you may) tailor in the British isles and identifying them with the totem or shibboleth if you well that is Savile Row to the American imagination, as thoguh there are no decent American tailors. I know this is not an aim of the thread or its contributors but rather an effect to be corrected. In that vein, there are in:

NYC: Frank Shattuck, Raphael, Leonard Logsdail, and the irreproachable MTM of Oxxford and Martin Greenfield

Philadelphia: CEntofanti

DC: Fields

I have left out many, some by simple ignorance and others by design. The latter include Georges de Paris in DC, about whom I have never heard anything positive by anoyone who knows anything about tailoring (and his clients aren't always top-drawer, dare I say [}]), and Jon Green, Stephen Kempson, Lianna Lee, Thom Browne, Alan Flusser, Duncan Quinn, etc., who are not bespoke tailors per se but are clothiers or designers offering others' tailoring services, in certain cases (Lee, Browne) at a revolting markup.

-- l'homme-RJ


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by pertch_
> Other tailors well worth mention:
> Hackett: www.hackett.com - though not sure whether they have in house tailors or just out-sourcing.


Hackett did once feature Terry Haste, now defected to Huntsman. Now its RTW is made in the Third World and sold at Jermyn Street prices; not sure how its MTM is but Super80s might.

Cordings also offers some form of bespoke/MTM.

-- l'homme-RJ


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## Lucky

Would not one call Alan Flusser's shop a bespoke tailor even though Flusser himself is not one?...after all, one goes there for a bespoke suit, and if I'm not mistaken at least some of them are made on the premises...I don't believe the owners of Anderson & Sheppard, and many others, are tailors either


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## bry2000

Cordings offer a MTM product, not bespoke. I have never ordered a MTM suit or coat from them, but have spoken to them extensively about the process. Cordings MTM sounds very decent for the price.


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## pertch

I remember a few years ago I spotted a tailor shop while I was driving by Tunbridge Wells in Kent. Naturally I stopped and took a look at the window display, the 2 jackets were quite up to Savile Row standard.

Just searched through google, there it is:

Colin De'ath: www.bespoke-tailors.co.uk


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## medwards

Thank you, Pertch. I do agree with RJMan that this is getting to be a very, very broad listing indeed. However, rather than adding more US tailors and then Milanese and then German and so forth, I would hope we would keep this present thread to just London tailors. Seperate discussions of New York, West Coast, French, Italian and other tailors are certainly appropriate and I would encourage individuals knowledgeable about those areas to begin them. But I fear that if we just keep adding them here, this thread will be far too cluttered to be of much use. Thanks.


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## Andre Yew

> quote:_I previously wrote:_
> 
> I just tried the thomasmahon.co.uk address, and will report back what happens.


An update: I received an email from Hugh McLeod, Thomas's webmaster, from the English Cut Gmail account, who says that Thomas's been travelling quite a bit, and is running behind on his email. I was just concerned that the email had been dropped after not hearing back from a while, which is a good idea for those whose businesses run on the Internet: an acknowledgment of an email, even if you can't answer it immediately, will always be appreciated.

--Andre


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## medwards

Thanks for the update, Andre. You might want to go back and add a little note to your earlier posting as well.


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## Alexander Kabbaz

To paraphrase Abbie Hoffman ... may I Steal This List!?!

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> 
> To paraphrase Abbie Hoffman ... may I Steal This List!?!
> 
> *https://www.CustomShirt1.com
> 
> Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
> * Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear
> * Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


I believe that like a bespoke pattern medwards might assert his IP rights...

-- l'homme-RJ


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## Alexander Kabbaz

> quote:I believe that like a bespoke pattern medwards might assert his IP rights...


 I see. A Washingtonian gang-up, huh?

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> 
> 
> 
> quote:I believe that like a bespoke pattern medwards might assert his IP rights...
> 
> 
> 
> I see. A Washingtonian gang-up, huh?
Click to expand...

That's right. Those darn Washington Fat Cats are out to get you again...

-- l'homme-RJ


----------



## Andre Yew

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> Thanks for the update, Andre. You might want to go back and add a little note to your earlier posting as well.


That's a good idea --- thanks. I've done so for both previous postings.

--Andre


----------



## erasmus

Another wonderful thread. I would also note that A Harris created a StyleForum thread that is the most comprehensive online visual catalog of Savile Row suits and jackets that I'm aware of (). An excellent resource.

"Ease and grace in everything" - Gracian


----------



## Johnny Dangerously

Also, Welsh & Jeffries - classic British military silhouette - very nice people, and Mahon has also spoken very highly of them on his blog


----------



## Bonhamesque

Let's not forget the stylish newcomers to the Row:

www.jasperlittman.co.uk (visiting tailors)

(big shop on corner)

These guys believe in a serious silhouette!


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by Bonhamesque_
> 
> Let's not forget the stylish newcomers to the Row:
> 
> www.jasperlittman.co.uk (visiting tailors)
> These guys believe in a serious silhouette!


Ooh, a free lint roller with your first suit! Appears to be yet another of the made-to-measure hucksters masquerading as bespoke.

-- l'homme-RJ


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> Ooh, a free lint roller with your first suit! Appears to be yet another of the made-to-measure hucksters masquerading as bespoke.


Which, for some totally unrelated reason ([}]), reminds be of my MD's choice, Whitcomb and Shaftesbury: https://whitcombandshaftesbury.com/

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## Bonhamesque

www.jasperlittman.co.uk (visiting tailors)
These guys believe in a serious silhouette!

[/quote]Ooh, a free lint roller with your first suit! Appears to be yet another of the made-to-measure hucksters masquerading as bespoke.

-- l'homme-RJ
[/quote]

Sorry RJ you're a bit wide of the mark there old boy.
The lint roller is a bit of a silly marketing gimmick yes, but if you read the site their bespoke suits are Â£1895 - no-one would dare charge that for MTM!

They are actually cut and stitched together on Savile Row which isn't always true of some of the other S. Row tailors.

Again if you read the site properly you'll see they offer both bespoke and semi-bespoke suits and the differences are clearly laid out on the 'Bespoke/semi-bespoke' page No masquerading going on there mate.

Not trying to sell their suits for them but if you're going to criticise at least read the site first.


----------



## medwards

Wasn't Jasper Littman formerly with Gieves & Hawkes?


----------



## RSS

What a wonderful first post and thread ... but now I must suffer the frustration of being off to a meeting ... and postpone more reading of it until later.

Many thanks to _medwards_ and _RJman_ and others who have added to it.

Someone above mentioned Doug Hayward (RJman?) ... but the last several times I've stopped in ... he hasn't been present. I've heard that he may not be well? I hope differently. It was his shop window that gave me the idea to have suits made for my niece's Teddy Bears (for which I received much teasing on here). I was told that Ralph Lauren gave Dougie Hayward his.


----------



## medwards

Thank you, Scott. We're certainly looking forward to your sharing some of your own experiences as part of this thread. Yes, I do believe Douglas Hayward had some health problems last year. Perhaps this thread can shed a bit of light: 



As for the Doug Hayward-Ralph Lauren connection, I believe that Mr. Hayward designed for RL.


----------



## Bonhamesque

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> Wasn't Jasper Littman formerly with Gieves & Hawkes?


Yes he was, and Kilgour as well I think...


----------



## whittaker_brown

According to the historian, Stephen Howarth, author of the _Henry Poole, Founders of Savile Row_, "... one of the fifty-four or so firms that can properly call themselves Savile Row tailors. Fifty-four firms, twelve thoroughfares, eleven streets - and only one Row". We are still coming up a few tailors short to complete a definitive list of Savile Row tailors. Excluding those that are surely "off-Row", I count 42 to 43 listed in these posts. The book was written 2 years ago. Can 10 have been swallowed up or out of business in 2 years, I wonder?

Does Lesley & Roberts still exist independently? What about Lord & Stewart? There is William Hunt at 41 Savile Row but can't find a website. Also found these guys:

*Phillip Alexander*: https://www.phillipalexander.co.uk/
*Gary Anderson*: https://www.garyanderson.com/ -- made to measure only


----------



## medwards

There indeed has been a rather constant reduction in the number of "Savile Row" firms. Part of this is in the continuing consolidation or purchase of many old name tailoring houses; part is the result of the retirement of a number of one-man cutter/proprietorships; part rests with the increases in costs of operating in Savile Row, forcing former denizens to relocate to other parts of the city or outside London completely; and part is a consequence of a rather limited demand for high-cost Savile Row products...particularly in light of the increase in quality of other bespoke makers around the world and a very substantial growth in made-to-measure garments. Moreover, many of the remaining firms that have been amalgamated into other houses really only exist in name today...not as distinct and viable tailors. Finally, it should be noted that a number of tailors who attach "Savile Row' to their name only use the SR premises of another tailor or merchant for meeting occasional customers for fittings but are, in fact, located elsewhere for all business and operational purposes. Taken together, these factors make it rather difficult to give a precise figure as to number of Savile Row tailors.


----------



## Trilby

> quote:Someone above mentioned Doug Hayward (RJman?) ... but the last several times I've stopped in ... he hasn't been present. I've heard that he may not be well? I hope differently. It was his shop window that gave me the idea to have suits made for my niece's Teddy Bears (for which I received much teasing on here). I was told that Ralph Lauren gave Dougie Hayward his.


He's doing a bit better now. I was in his shop recently (along with a couple of other regulars from this forum).


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

What a charming man! But it should reminds us all how the fate of smaller tailoring houses may well be dependent on the skills, health, personality and inclinations of a single individual. Let us all wish good health to Mr. Hayward and to all his colleagues!!! Cheers!

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by whittaker_brown_
> According to the historian, Stephen Howarth, "... the fifty-four or so firms that can properly call themselves Savile Row tailors. Fifty-four firms, twelve thoroughfares, eleven streets - and only one Row". We are still coming up a few tailors short to complete a definitive list of Savile Row tailors. Excluding those that are surely "off-Row", I count 42 to 43 listed in these posts. The book was written 2 years ago. Can 10 have been swallowed up or out of business in 2 years, I wonder?
> 
> Does Lesley & Roberts still exist independently? What about Lord & Stewart? There is William Hunt at 41 Savile Row but can't find a website. Also found these guys:
> 
> *Phillip Alexander*: https://www.phillipalexander.co.uk/
> *Gary Anderson*: https://www.garyanderson.com/ -- made to measure only


Trying to get an accurate tally of "Savile Row tailors" is impossible. For one, I have no idea where Howarth got his figure or how old _his_ source was. For another,his figure could include various firms "incorporated" by other houses, such as James & James, Wells, Johns & Pegg and Adeney & Boutroy -- all of which are now part of Davies and Sons. That's all well, but lots of SR houses "incorporate" other firms that are long defunct -- I hope,for instance, that Howarth didn't count Carpenter & Packer, now part of Huntsman.

Another problem is the number of self-titled "Savile Row" tailors who simply have a sitting with a firm in the Savile Row area or an arrangement to visit customers by previous appointment in the Row. Not only would this encompass Darren and AFAIK Mahon,but also BPO tailors Whitcomb & Shaftesbury, Tobias Davis (who very honestly state that they are no longer in the Row but can meet there by appointment), provincial tailors and G-d knows who else. Conversely, quite a few of the tailors named above and likely included in your count are not in the general area known as Savile Row. Doug Hayward is in Mount St, John Pearse in (?) Soho, Timothy Everest in Spitalfields,and Edward Sexton in Beauchamp Place. Sexton and likely Pearse and Hayward have Savile Row experience,but would they call themselves Savile Row tailors?

As a corollary, many of the firms opening in the Savile Row area -- can they really be called tailors? Is Ozwald Boateng a tailor? RJ is quite happy to admit he is not a tailor, although he provides bespoke services through Levett (below). 40 Savile Row is not a tailoring firm but a factory MTM operation. Alexandre Savile Row is a branch of BMB and is also a MTM operation with flashy RTW. Gary Anderson appears mainly to sell expensive and gaudy wedding outfits. I haven't heard a thing about tailoring ability. Evisu now occupies Airey & Wheeler/AJ Hewitt's space and is offering bespoke services in collaboration -- does that make Evisu a "Sebiro" tailor? Many of these firms are designer operations with bespoke as a loss leader or prestige operation representing only a tiny percentage of their business. This also applies to a few established SR houses like Gieves & Hawkes, whose bespoke represents a smaller percentage of business than at RJ.

Additionally, there are quite a few tailors in Savile Row without the advantage of a website or glitzy PR. Many of these are small one-person firms but there is also Welsh& Jefferies and a few others. Brian Russell, James Levett, Richard W Paine, Peter Moore and I'm sure many others of whom I don't know.

In closing, one may as well attempt to count how many SR tailors can dance on the head of a pin -- or thimble.

-- l'homme-RJ


----------



## whittaker_brown

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> Conversely, quite a few of the tailors named above and likely included in your count are not in the general area known as Savile Row. Doug Hayward is in Mount St, John Pearse in (?) Soho, Timothy Everest in Spitalfields,and Edward Sexton in Beauchamp Place. Sexton and likely Pearse and Hayward have Savile Row experience,but would they call themselves Savile Row tailors?


Strangely enough, according to Stephen Howarth's definition, Doug Hayward could certainly qualify even if he wouldn't use the term. To quote Howarth, "... Savile Row is not only a street but an area: Savile Row tailoring means tailoring from the Row and a recognized limited handful of tailors in other nearby London Streets. Those nearby are Clifford Street, Conduit Street, Cork Street, Old Burlington Street and Sackville Street. Slightly further afield are Maddox Street, St. George Street and Stafford Street, and further still are Dering Street, *Mount Street* and Princes Street." Somewhere later in his book Howarth adds New Burlington Street to that list of streets.



> quote:In closing, one may as well attempt to count how many SR tailors can dance on the head of a pin -- or thimble.


Agreed and for all intents and purposes, it matters not a jot. I'm curious though how Howarth can be so emphatic in his assertions. Is or was there a Savile Row tailors guild that the genuine artisans have to join and that established the permitted geography? (To produce a product called Parma ham or champagne you have to be appropriately certified). Again, not that it matters. I'm an ancient history graduate and a completionist by nature.


----------



## 16412

medwards- and part is a consequence of a rather limited demand for high-cost Savile Row products...particularly in light of the increase in quality of other bespoke makers around the world

Actually there has been a huge decrease in tailors for at least 40 years around the world. So, Savile Row had more competition in the past. What Savile Row has not really competed against is the cheap Far East tailors, the quality Western weavers are competing agianst the cheap Far East weavers, too.

A film series from the 70's (Hands) made in Ireland about crafts, such as bespoke shoe makers, saddle makers, thatch roofs, etc. So they made a film on tailoring - the old tailor, in the film, said that when he was boy starting out at age 15 there were about 45 tailor businesses in that town. Some of these shops had over 50 tailors working in them. From a one make business to some over 50. At the time of the film there were only a few tailor businesses left, and not many tailors in any of them.

This old man (tailor) I talked to in Seattle said that where he lived as a child, a town in Montana (what town in Montana is big?) there were 12-14 tailor businesses. This old man in his "hey day of tailoring" said that there were lots of tailors in Seattle. He was telling me about a huge cloth merchant in Seattle, that I had heard about over 40 years earlier from my Granddad. This Seattle tailor said that there were over 40 tailor supply merchants, too. Today this old tailor says there are no working tailors in Seattle. The three cloth merchants for tailors are gone and the closes tailor supply merchant is 900-1,000 miles away, and the one I talked to didn't even know half the stuff they should have, so didn't have the required goods to make a tailored suit.

Savile Row has had most of the best tailors in the world, they never had all the best tailors. Some of the best tailors have lived else where. Savile Row has had the biggest conglomerate of best tailors for 100 years or more.


----------



## medwards

Another thread on tailors, shirtmakers et all who do not have websites:



Please note, however, that the above linked thread is not limited to Savile Row and its environs nor to tailors. The present discussion is aimed at precisely those topics.


----------



## Des Esseintes

Gentlemen

many thanks for another fine piece of joint research.

Just two quick questions:

1) Was not Logsdail also present at Savile Row a while ago - Burstow & Logsdail? What happened to them?

2) Does anyone have any views on a firm called A.T. Houghton, in Sackville Street, I believe?

Many thanks

dE

"...there is a difference between an urn and a chamber pot..."


----------



## RJman

According to Tom Mahon, Brian Burstow just passed away, sadly.

There is a savilerow.net site that also has a listing of SAvile Row tailors but it's not compeltely up to date.

-- l'homme-RJ


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by Des Esseintes_
> 1) Was not Logsdail also present at Savile Row a while ago - Burstow & Logsdail? What happened to them?


Mr. Logsdail moved to the United States and began his own tailoring firm in New York in 1991 or so. Inasmuch as he is a participant on this Forum, I will leave it to him to provide the details. What I can say is that by all accounts, his relocation to the US has significantly enhanced this country's sartorial assets.


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> There is a savilerow.net site that also has a listing of SAvile Row tailors but it's not compeltely up to date.-- l'homme-RJ


I am not sure it's still functioning. Last time I tried it, it was a set of directories of London hotels!


----------



## pertch

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> There is a savilerow.net site that also has a listing of SAvile Row tailors but it's not compeltely up to date.-- l'homme-RJ
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure it's still functioning. Last time I tried it, it was a set of directories of London hotels!
Click to expand...


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> There is a savilerow.net site that also has a listing of SAvile Row tailors but it's not compeltely up to date.-- l'homme-RJ
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure it's still functioning. Last time I tried it, it was a set of directories of London hotels!
Click to expand...

Sorry, medwards. www.savilerow.com is the proper website I believe. Still rather superannuated though.

-- l'homme-RJ


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## medwards

Thanks, Pertch. I was aware of that Savilerow._*com*_ site (which is woefully out of date), but I thought RJman was referring another resource: savilerow.*net*.

And thank you, L'homme - RJ, yes, superannuated is precisely the right word.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

No matter. This single, solitary thread will now supersede all such superannuated, superficial and superfluous Savile Row sites. 

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## Leonard

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Des Esseintes_
> 1) Was not Logsdail also present at Savile Row a while ago - Burstow & Logsdail? What happened to them?
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Logsdail moved to the United States and began his own tailoring firm in New York in 1991 or so. Inasmuch as he is a participant on this Forum, I will leave it to him to provide the details. What I can say is that by all accounts, his relocation to the US has significantly enhanced this country's sartorial assets.
Click to expand...

Medwards,

Thank you for the nice comment.

Yes, Brian Burstow and I met in 1969 when I joined Welsh & Jeffries. he was a cutter there and I aspired to be one. We struck up a friendship that eventually transpired in starting our own business in December of 1971. My move to the US in 1991 ended with our partnership disolving. It was Brian who really taught me the rudiments of my craftand helped me flourish. His sometimes brash attitude turned some people off, but underneath was a heart of gold. He allowed me to enter and grow.

Sadly, Brian died about three weeks ago. His son, Paul, a Member of Parliament, resquested I write a few words about Brian to be read at his funeral, which I was honored to do.


----------



## modsquad

Sticky this one.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

The link to Mr. Beaman's site does not appear to be functioning. 

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Chatterbox_
> 
> The link to Mr. Beaman's site does not appear to be functioning.
> 
> Mr. Chatterbox
> London Daily Excess


This was mentioned on styleforum, there is to be a new web site - the blog (https://darrenbeaman.blogspot.com) is still up.


----------



## medwards

Darren's regular site (www.savile-row.com) is working once again.

note: I have double-checked all of the links in this thread and as of today (12 January 2006), they are all appear to be functional.


----------



## medwards

Darren Beaman's website appears to be down once again.


----------



## bry2000

Good to see Beaman's website is as reliable as he is.


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## passingtime

Darren is upgrading his web site from a shared to a dedicated server at the moment. Normal service will be resumed in a day or so.


----------



## medwards

Thank you, passingtime. I'm trying to keep the links in this thread as current as possible so that it can continue to serve as a resource for the members of this Forum. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## passingtime

medwards- Glad to be of assistance. On my travels I found these two blogs, you might want to update their entries.
Stephen Hitchcock ()
Darren Beaman (https://darrenbeaman.blogspot.com)


----------



## medwards

Thank you. I've updated both their initial entries so that these blogs are included.


----------



## medwards

They seem to be doing some reconstruction work on Timothy Everest's website; Darren Beaman's website is now back up.


----------



## morgan

[Bit OT, but I like Stephen Hitchcock's blog for its forthright views. He comes right out and names his top 10 Savile Row tailors. You'd be surprised at who hasn't made it.]


----------



## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by morgan_
> 
> [ You'd be surprised at who hasn't made it.]


I notice of all the big guns, only Gieves & Hawkes is not in. Of the smaller shops, Richard Anderson and Maurice Sedwell, both of whom have received kind reviews on this board.

I also notice that Steed and Mahon did not make it--- perhaps he chose to count them as out of town tailors, or maybe the rivalry cuts a little closer with them.

No other conspicuous absences, really. Or have I completely forgotten someone very famous?


----------



## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by Concordia_
> I notice of all the big guns, Gieves & Hawkes is not in. Of the smaller shops, Richard Anderson and Maurice Sedwell, both of whom have received kind reviews on this board.


I was surprised at the ommision of Gieves & Hawkes as well. The common factor is that all the tailors in Stephen's list have shops in the Savile Row area rather than just visiting rights.


----------



## Panzeraxe

Does anyone know what Denman & Goddard's house style is - British Military?


----------



## Concordia

It leans that direction, as the partners are ex-Huntsman and ex-Dege. Slightly square shoulders, medium-firm jackets, somewhat trim trouser legs. Superb craftsmanship-- they use the same jacket maker who, I believe, continues to do excellent work for Dege and also works for Malcolm Plews at W&J, a man with high standards.


----------



## Fashionslave

Yea,the absence of Gieves is surprising![:0]


----------



## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by Fashionslave_
> 
> Yea,the absence of Gieves is surprising![:0]


Although the recent impressions I get of the place are an awkward house style, obscenely high prices, and a growing emphasis on RTW. This is based on no personal contact, BTW, so take it for what it's worth. I don't actually know who's running the kitchen.

In the old days, I believe that Gieves was something like the SR equivalent of Merrill Lynch-- one of the biggest training programs going. A ton of independent tailors or senior cutters at other shops got their start at G&H.


----------



## Cantabrigian

Has anyone on the forum used Gieves? There have been plenty of comments about their RTW, store windows and MTM (all of which seem accurate) but I've never heard any first-hand comments on their bespoke and would be interested to know what they are like.


----------



## Trilby

I'm also curious to hear about Gieves, although I understand that bespoke is only a tiny part of their business these days. How many other Savile Row operations have a store at an outlet mall? (just RTW stuff, I hasten to add).

I am surprised to see Kilgour at the top of Hitchcock's list. I thought that they were drifting in the same direction as Gieves but with a high-fashion makeover. The firm has a first rate history, and it's gratifying to see that Hitchcock still rates it so highly.


----------



## morgan

Your impressions may be right Concordia as an old Army friend of mine calls them 'Gieves & Thieves'!


----------



## RJman

Twenty-five years ago, Alan Flusser referred to Gieves as mainly a ready-to-wear house with a bespoke past. _Plus ca change..._ Moreover, Gieves was not on the Row or in the area defined as Savile Row until its 1972 (?) merger with Hawkes & Co.

Kilgour's also relied on RTW for years and years, with licenses in the US at Barneys and various forms of RTW in the UK.

I wonder if Hitchcock's mention of Denmans as one of the top 10 tailors has to do with his having a sitting there on New Burlington St -- where they now appear to be the only tailoring shop there.

Does anyone else detect a few barbs at a certain Baron in Hitchcock's blog? Too bad, as Darren is quite complimentary of him. Merits aside, I fear that both Beaman's and Hitchcock's blogs might be a little late to the party. Mahon's well-written, interesting blog has been incredibly successful for him -- perhaps damningly successful as he takes on more and more and more customers -- and these two later blogs won't have the same novelty to the internet punter.

-- RJman


----------



## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> Does anyone else detect a few barbs at a certain Baron in Hitchcock's blog?


???


----------



## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by Concordia_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> Does anyone else detect a few barbs at a certain Baron in Hitchcock's blog?
> 
> 
> 
> ???
Click to expand...

Ah, right down at the bottom. That might be aimed more at Thomas Mahon who, as one of the ex-A&S cutters, has a similiar style and as such is a direct competitor. Maybe he resents the fact that Thomas don't have the Savile Row overheads.[]


> quote:
> I would like to point out that I work in our premises every day and am not one of these tailors who travels to London (Savile Row) once a fortnight trying on fittings in someone elses showroom and working from a mobile telephone.


----------



## Concordia

Oh, I missed that. As Thomas actually has a shop (in Carlisle) and his name on a plate glass window on SR, I think the reference was to a certain Baron Demon. No love lost, there.


----------



## Cantabrigian

After looking at the Hitchcock and Beaman blogs, I do think that they feel like imitations of Mahon's successful online venture.

I definitely prefer Mahon's writing and transmitted personality (though I am in no position to asses the relative merits of the three tailors.)



> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> Twenty-five years ago, Alan Flusser referred to Gieves as mainly a ready-to-wear house with a bespoke past. _Plus ca change..._ Moreover, Gieves was not on the Row or in the area defined as Savile Row until its 1972 (?) merger with Hawkes & Co.
> 
> Kilgour's also relied on RTW for years and years, with licenses in the US at Barneys and various forms of RTW in the UK.
> 
> I wonder if Hitchcock's mention of Denmans as one of the top 10 tailors has to do with his having a sitting there on New Burlington St -- where they now appear to be the only tailoring shop there.
> 
> Does anyone else detect a few barbs at a certain Baron in Hitchcock's blog? Too bad, as Darren is quite complimentary of him. Merits aside, I fear that both Beaman's and Hitchcock's blogs might be a little late to the party. Mahon's well-written, interesting blog has been incredibly successful for him -- perhaps damningly successful as he takes on more and more and more customers -- and these two later blogs won't have the same novelty to the internet punter.
> 
> -- RJman


----------



## nikwik

I must say I like Thomas Mahons answer on the same question as Stephen Hitchcock answers with his list...

"_*The one thing Iâ€™m not going to do is tell you who are the best tailors on Savile Row. For three main reasons:*_

_1. I honestly don't know
2. This is just too personal a business to remain completely objective
3. You have the aforementioned big flagship stores on Savile Row, however the tailors inside those grand buildings are actually quite nomadic._

"Those who know don't tell and those who tell don't know" - Lao Tzu


----------



## bry2000

In his "barb", perhaps Hitchcock is targeting Steed. Does Dubois have his name on a shop on or near SR? Perhaps Hitchcock is not referring to Darren Beaman since Hitchcock derides tailors that "...work from a mobile phone". Anyone who has ever regrettably been a Beaman customer knows that Darren is hardly reachable on his mobile phone. While Beaman claims he works at 12 SR, which is Scabal's shop, he does not have his name on the window.


----------



## manton

Steed has their name on #9, I believe.


----------



## passingtime

Not strictly a Savile Row post but if you want to understand Thomas Mahon have a look at Hugh MacLeod's blog (https://www.gapingvoid.com). Hugh is responsible for Thomas's stunning market campaign and there are some interesting discussions there about English Cut, in particular the 2006 predictions -


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz

> quote:1. I honestly don't know
> 2. This is just too personal a business to remain completely objective
> 3. You have the aforementioned big flagship stores on Savile Row, however the tailors inside those grand buildings are actually quite nomadic.


I like this man. Though I certainly cannot attest to #3, I can surely and forcefully agree with #'s 1 and 2.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by Concordia_
> 
> Oh, I missed that. As Thomas actually has a shop (in Carlisle) and his name on a plate glass window on SR, I think the reference was to a certain Baron Demon. No love lost, there.


Thomas now has Scabal (12) as his Savile Row address where his name isn't on the glass. Nor is it on Welsh & Jeffries (20), the address given on his web site as opposed to the English Cut site. Scabal seems to be attracting tailors, although it is not unusual for tailors to use cloth merchants for fittings if they have no premises of their own.


----------



## medwards

Which raises the question -- once again -- as to what (or who) is a Savile Row tailor? And does it matter?


----------



## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by passingtime_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Concordia_
> 
> Oh, I missed that. As Thomas actually has a shop (in Carlisle) and his name on a plate glass window on SR, I think the reference was to a certain Baron Demon. No love lost, there.
> 
> 
> 
> Thomas now has Scabal (12) as his Savile Row address where his name isn't on the glass. Nor is it on Welsh & Jeffries (20), the address given on his web site as opposed to the English Cut site. Scabal seems to be attracting tailors, although it is not unusual for tailors to use cloth merchants for fittings if they have no premises of their own.
Click to expand...

That is new since last summer.

I wonder if the boys at Scabal have to keep bouncers around, given that Darren also seems to use the place?


----------



## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by Concordia_
> I wonder if the boys at Scabal have to keep bouncers around, given that Darren also seems to use the place?


Oh I don't think things are as bad between them as people assume.

I suspect that in reality they have different market; Thomas is more the A&S style, while Darren is more the Kilgour/Huntsman style. People tend to gravitate to one style or the other, or to something else entirely different like Italian, although they may occasionally stray.


----------



## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> Which raises the question -- once again -- as to what (or who) is a Savile Row tailor? And does it matter?


This is a very interesting question and bears on the future of Savile Row. IMHO a Savile Row tailor is someone who has served an apprenticeship with one of the SR firms. But where does that leave the tailors who do the piecework for those firms? Although they may have been employed by one of the firms they weren't apprenticed there. Ok - they are trained in a particular house style (a problem I will return to) but then does it matter where they are located?

In olden days all English towns had rows like Savile Row, and for exactly the same reason (guilds aside) - if you are a tailor it makes sense to be near other tailors. Coatmakers need trousermakers, need buttonholers, need pressers, ... Being close other tailors was a competitive advantage, it is easy for them to give work to you because you are next door.

Nowadays distance nolonger has the same meaning which is why it is perfectly feasible for Kilgour to use tailors in China. Technically, what is the difference between a Chinese tailor in China and one in Kingsley Street?


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by passingtime_
> Thomas now has Scabal (12) as his Savile Row address where his name isn't on the glass.


That is really, really weird. Darren and Mahon cohabiting? It could be a sitcom. What would we call it? Savile Rows?

-- RJman


----------



## medwards

*Anderson & Sheppard* has now updated its website...and while it's still under construction, it may be of some interest. It provides a rather nice tour of their new premises in Old Burlington Street.

https://www.anderson-sheppard.co.uk/

note: I have also updated the initial references to A&S in this thread to reflect this.


----------



## bry2000

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by passingtime_
> Thomas now has Scabal (12) as his Savile Row address where his name isn't on the glass.
> 
> 
> 
> That is really, really weird. Darren and Mahon cohabiting? It could be a sitcom. What would we call it? Savile Rows?
> 
> -- RJman
Click to expand...

It is weird especially since Darren can't stand Mahon. I wonder if the owners of Scabal are aware that Darren advertises 12 SR (Scabal's shop) as his address. I wonder if Darren pays any rent to Scabal.


----------



## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by bry2000_
> I wonder if the owners of Scabal are aware that Darren advertises 12 SR (Scabal's shop) as his address. I wonder if Darren pays any rent to Scabal.


From one of my earlier posts in this thread...


> quote:
> Scabal seems to be attracting tailors, although it is not unusual for tailors to use cloth merchants for fittings if they have no premises of their own.


Merchants don't object as long as it says by appointment, they don't like it when you just state the address though. As to whether Darren pays rent, no idea but I would say that was a matter between him and Scabal.


----------



## Notik

I've got a second fitting on a G&H suit coming up in mid March. Will let everyone know how it goes. Suit is a light weight, 120s navy. 3 button. At first fitting, pants fit well, though rise was slightly high and will be lowered. (They are rather trim, flat front pants.) Jacket: shoulders were a bit padded for my taste but will be reduced, otherwise very nice. The cutter seems to have a good feel for what I was looking for --> fitted, long, with a small flare to the skirt. Double vented (of course!).



> quote:_Originally posted by Cantabrigian_
> 
> Has anyone on the forum used Gieves? There have been plenty of comments about their RTW, store windows and MTM (all of which seem accurate) but I've never heard any first-hand comments on their bespoke and would be interested to know what they are like.


----------



## Will

Scabal benefits greatly by having tailors use the premises. The fabric shown is theirs unless the customer is considered worthy of the added time it takes to browse the other suppliers in the area. 


------------------------
Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

In visiting a number of the Savile Row websites included in this thread, I see a rather large number of them not only do bespoke work but offer made-to-measure services as well. This includes some of the most noteworthy of tailors -- my own, Huntsman, being one -- which I find somewhat surprising. Surely there was a time in the recent past when such made-to-measure options would be simply unfathomable. In light of the concurrent discussion about Prince Charles availing himself of Turnbull & Asser's made-to-measure service, what does all this mean for the future of Savile Row...and bespoke tailoring generally. Enquiring minds want to know! [?]

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## RJman

Mr Chatterbox:

Huntsman and Gieves and Hawkes have offered MTM for donkey's years! The Huntsman MTM used to be alterations to a Chester Barrie suit -- *RSS* could tell you more. Gieves & Hawkes Personal Tailoring had a corner at Harrods for a long time and has gone through several iterations. A poster named Super80s, who was a phenomenal source of information, works as some sort of tailor at Gieves and observed unhappily that MTM was what Gieves is now pushing as that's where the margins are higher. However, it's not Gieves doing it but a subcontractor. That will be the case with most of the SR firms, providing measurements to a third party who will make the suit elsewhere in a factory. I don't know if that's how certain of them like Benson & Clegg or Richard ANderson do it, but James & James, Richard James, Gieves and probably others all have various vendors, one (Paname) was making the garments in, horrors!, France. Bespoke is retrenching and will be kept as the increasingly expensive high-profile offering as houses have to turn to MTM, RTW and accessories to keep things up and build that brand. BTW, will someone tell Thomas Mahon that there really are no more factories handmaking RTW shirts in Britain?

-- RJman


----------



## Bonhamesque

Mr Chatterbox,
RJ man is correct, and to answer your question further, the main reason that almost all Savile Row tailors offer some kind of Semi-bespoke/MTM/whatever is money.
Most of them charge about Â£2500 - Â£3500 for a fully bespoke suit in a basic fabric. 
The fact is there simply aren't enough people left in the UK who are prepared to shell out that (let's face it huge!) amount of money on a suit.
There are plenty of people who can afford to pay that much but they simply can't see the point in it. There's a definite pyschological barrier that people won't cross irrespective of their salary.
For example I can afford go out and buy a Â£2,000 pair of shoes, but I will never do that because I just think that Â£300 is the maximum for me personally. I mean how good can these shoes be?
What I'm saying rather longwindedly is that there aren't enough full bespoke clients to satisfy all the tailors in Savile Row so they have no choice but to offer a cheaper alternative.
There will always be a market for people who want to get a taste of Savile Row without having to sell their car to buy a suit.

If you ask, you'll probably find that most S R tailors are doing more business on their MTM than on their full bespoke.

RJ man,
Paname went bust a long time ago (thank God) but apparently the factory is being used by a company called Bernhardt tailoring to make even more sub-standard s**te.
As far as I'm aware no-one in Savile Row is using them...


----------



## passingtime

The other side to this is why Thomas Mahon is starting to offer MTM shirts as RJman noted. Thomas can produce 5-6 suits per week, however I am certain he could cut more than that so the bottleneck is in getting them made up - a hard limit. His options are either to smartly increase his prices or to stretch the brand to MTM shirts, or do both. 

This mirrors what has happened in Savile Row, although they have largely balked at increasing prices (maybe they don't think there is any elasticity there) and have branched into MTM instead where the margins are better and production can be scaled. The established houses use their bespoke reputation to sell MTM to people who either don't think anyone will notice and don't want to waste money (as with the Prince Charles?), or who cannot afford bespoke prices but want the cachet.

RJman - on the shirts; you have to admire anyone who can sell a Jermyn Street MTM shirt for $300, hats off to Thomas. That's a fair bit more than I pay for bespoke on Jermyn Street!


----------



## Bonhamesque

I'm not entirely sure that margins are better with MTM...
If you're charging Â£3,000 for something, there must be more margin in that than something that you're charging Â£600 for.
Retail mark-up is still 2.7 times isn't it?

With regard to shirts, $300 (Â£150) is about the going rate for a fully bespoke shirt.
A lot of Jermyn St. shirtmakers charge that and you also have to buy a minimum of 4.
Personally I would rather buy my bespoke shirt from a tailor anyway.


----------



## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by Bonhamesque_
> With regard to shirts, $300 (Â£150) is about the going rate for a fully bespoke shirt.
> A lot of Jermyn St. shirtmakers charge that and you also have to buy a minimum of 4.
> Personally I would rather buy my bespoke shirt from a tailor anyway.


Sadly for me the days of the $2/Â£1 exchange rate are long gone, but I do agree with you that I prefer to buy bespoke shirts from a shirtmaker (H&H in my case) than from an MTM operation - especially when bespoke is cheaper.


----------



## sysdoc

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> BTW, will someone tell Thomas Mahon that there really are no more factories handmaking RTW shirts in Britain?
> 
> -- RJman


I hope you'll remember these words when Thomas supplies the full set of details about the shirt operation, which will happen rather soon.

What exactly is the motivation behind this little sniper attack against a well respected artisan (and genuinely kind character)?

Thomas Mahon wouldn't make false statements for personal gain or anything else (e.g. vanity) for that matter. It's just not in him.

I wished this could be said about certain other individuals.


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by sysdoc_
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> BTW, will someone tell Thomas Mahon that there really are no more factories handmaking RTW shirts in Britain?
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you'll remember these words when Thomas supplies the full set of details about the shirt operation, which will happen rather soon.
> 
> What exactly is the motivation behind this little sniper attack against a well respected artisan (and genuinely kind character)?
Click to expand...

Oh, go bug a Vass representative. For the record, the first place I posted my comments about Tom's foray was on his blog. I don't know what he knows about factory shirtmaking and I do not intimate he is lying, just that "englishcut handmade shirts" might be hard to make in england as I can't think of a British shirtmaker using much handwork nowadays, certainly not in RTW/MTM.

Why this snappiness? Snipe him? I almost used him. And I've said elsewhere and I'll say again that his blog is an asset, and a genuinely well-written, thoughtful and charming addition to the Web. Inasmuch as I can tell, he's been very diplomatic in the aftermath of certain controversies that flared up and he put a lid on the unhinged assertions of a certain self-aggrandizing character who was hoping to use Tom's blog as a soapbox for his own vendettas.

-- RJman


----------



## bry2000

RJ, To whom are you referring? Care to name names?

On a separate note, I don't think any London shirtmaker handmakes any aspect of a shirt. Gotta go to Naples for that.


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by bry2000_
> RJ, To whom are you referring? Care to name names?


Baron Le Chat Mort?

Look, I read years ago that H&K in its bespoke would handsew buttonholes. I don't know if they do so anymore, and the writer's impression was that others didn't. I also know from old Flusser/others that the old Beale & Inman and the old Bowring Arundel (pre-acquisition) used some handsewers. My impression was that was all for bespoke. There are some great British RTW shirtmakers -- Budd, HK, T&A, Cleeve -- but as far as my untrained eye can tell (or read) there isn't much handwork in them. The newer boys (Tyrwhitt, Haines Bonner, Bond Smiley, etc.) are either not made in Britain or priced at such a point that I don't think handwork would be used in their making.

If he launches an MTM service with handwork, so much the better. Mahon was honest and upfront about what differences in procedures would be between MTM and bespoke, and $300 is a fair price for British MTM considering that Jermyn St bespoke (around 150 pounds) sometimes is only MTM, and even Thomas Pink wants 200 pounds for its MTM. I've never said I wished Tom ill, I just hope that he can keep a good thing going -- what appeared to be a good bespoke tailoring service with personal attention -- as he receives a well-deserved rush of customers and -- entrepreneurially -- expands.

-- RJman

PS: Le chat-RJ (72.5 cm, 4.5 kilo) a une bande.


----------



## Smooth Jazz

> quote:_Originally posted by Bonhamesque_
> 
> Personally I would rather buy my bespoke shirt from a tailor anyway.


[:0][:0][:0][:0][:0][:0] Blasphemy [:0][:0][:0][:0][:0][:0]

Malinda -- pls don't let Kabbaz see this -- no telling what he might do!!! He is probably still in traffic returning from NYC after seeing his clients until the wee hours of the morning.


----------



## bry2000

Handsewing does not exist in London shirtmaking circles. You can ask Budd and the others about the handwork and I am sure you get a consistent answer. By and large, London shirtmakers offer a standardized (overpriced) product. One guy I am curious about is David Gale of Dunhill on Bond Street. Perhaps a customer of Gale's can provide a review?


----------



## Blackadder

I'm not sure how the shirt world works, but it was my impression that Gale makes for most of the smaller shirt businesses today based on the cutters' patterns. In fact, my bespoke London shirts might have been made by him. All machine stitching, very comfortable and a good construction. Not terribly stylish, but very nice. I gave up on London shirtmakers because I just got sick of their unreliability (for the smaller makers) and their gouging (the larger ones). This belongs on another thread, and if medwards wants me too, I will remove it.


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by Blackadder_
> I gave up on London shirtmakers because I just got sick of their unreliability (for the smaller makers) and their gouging (the larger ones).


Perhaps a visit to Charvet is in order when you are in Freedom? No handwork there, but a wonderful product. Handwork is overfetishized anyway, particularly vis-a-vis shirts.

-- RJman


----------



## Cantabrigian

I am surprised you'd think London-made shirts are overpriced, they all seem to charge far less than their American peers.

Not sure what Charvet or the Italian makers charge (for the latter's MTM) but I would imagine that it is also quite a bit more than you'd see on Jermyn Street.



> quote:_Originally posted by bry2000_
> 
> Handsewing does not exist in London shirtmaking circles. You can ask Budd and the others about the handwork and I am sure you get a consistent answer. By and large, London shirtmakers offer a standardized (overpriced) product. One guy I am curious about is David Gale of Dunhill on Bond Street. Perhaps a customer of Gale's can provide a review?


----------



## Panzeraxe

Most "bespoke" shirts made by Jermyn Street makers are essentially MTM anyway - its much easier to get a shirt to fit well than a suit, so things like a muslin fitting and several additional fittings are often unecessary. Mimmo Sviglia (sp?) through Raphael in NYC offers true bespoke...

Panzer


----------



## RJman

medwards, did we want to list Denman & Goddard, whose "house tie" featured in "The Tailor of Panama"?

Sadly, Evisu and Anthony Hewitt are cohabiting -- it is a jeans store selling bespoke tailoring. Not sure how that is classified.

-- RJman


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> medwards, did we want to list Denman & Goddard, whose "house tie" featured in "The Tailor of Panama"? -- RJman


I believe, RJman, that it has already been noted...by a gentleman of impeccable taste and breeding who chose to seek Freedom outside our Nation's capital.  But for those who may not have noted it on the first page of this discussion, here's the link once again:


----------



## bystander

I notice from James and James website() that the firm offers an online MTM suit ordering service where you fill in the blanks (being your measurements) as you can best measure, and the suit turns up a few weeks later in the mail; the cost being a few hundred pounds. Does anyone have personal experience of this service?


----------



## medwards

*James and James*, of course, has gone through a great deal of evolution over the years. This is the house that acquired Scholte's business, made for the Duke of Windsor, and then pioneered the use of fusing on Savile Row. It is now is part of *Davies & Son*.


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by bystander_
> 
> I notice from James and James website() that the firm offers an online MTM suit ordering service where you fill in the blanks (being your measurements) as you can best measure, and the suit turns up a few weeks later in the mail; the cost being a few hundred pounds.


By the way, I would note that *Steed* appears to provide a similar service:


----------



## bystander

Does anyone have first hand experience of Anderson & Sheppard tailoring (bespoke men's suit), and, if so, would the forum member care to share her/his views


----------



## johnapril

> quote:_Originally posted by Cantabrigian_
> 
> Not sure what Charvet or the Italian makers charge (for the latter's MTM) but I would imagine that it is also quite a bit more than you'd see on Jermyn Street.


Charvet charges EU273 for a MTM shirt.


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by johnapril_Charvet charges EU273 for a MTM shirt.


Their full bespoke "grande mesure" starts at 360 euros and shoots up from there.

Thank you for the haberdashery.

*************
RJman. Accept no imitations.


----------



## johnapril

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by johnapril_Charvet charges EU273 for a MTM shirt.
> 
> 
> 
> Their full bespoke "grande mesure" starts at 360 euros and shoots up from there.
> 
> Thank you for the haberdashery.
> 
> *************
> RJman. Accept no imitations.
Click to expand...

The folks in 28 steered me to MTM, as my fit was not so difficult to get right by tweaking a standard shirt. That is the nicest shirt I've ever had. Can't wait to go back and pick out more fabric.


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by bystander_
> 
> Does anyone have first hand experience of Anderson & Sheppard tailoring (bespoke men's suit), and, if so, would the forum member care to share her/his views


Here is a recent thread relating to *Anderson & Sheppard * that might be helpful. There are several links within it that provide additional background.


----------



## morgan

How would you define Fallan & Harvey's style medwards as I know you favour them?


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by morgan_
> 
> How would you define Fallan & Harvey's style medwards as I know you favour them?


Yes, I have indeed been a longstanding customer of *Fallan & Harvey*'s and have rather high regard for their craftsmanship and their commitment to service. Over the years, they have made more garments for me than I care to admit and I've yet to encounter even the smallest problem in terms of quality, fit, or styling (though I do recall a time that Keith Fallan noticed something that _he _ didn't think was quite right on a finished tuxedo he was delivering to me in Washington and pulled out needle and thread to make the adjustment on the spot).

I honestly do not know about clothing they have made for others (the only other Fallan & Harvey customer with whom I have ever talked about their work was the late Bobby Short) so I can only tell you about the items they have made for me. My own taste is rather straightfoward. I first look for fit and comfort in my clothes, quality of workmanship and attention to detail, and prefer a somewhat understated -- though I hope modestly elegant -- style. Some might say that I am a tad conservative in my tastes (though they obviously don't know about the turquoise and lavendar coat I had made on Carnaby Street while still at University in the the 1960's...something I would rather forget as well). My goal has always been for people to remember me, not my suit. I am not particularly difficult to fit, though my size -- 5'6" and 135 pounds -- has a bit of a bearing on the lines and drape that look most appropriate on me. Keith clearly understood my preferences and had a wonderful sense of how best to translate them into lovely and lasting clothes. My suits are rather slim-fitting, gently tapered and shaped, with just a tad of firmness. I have yet to be disappointed in a single garment...whether it be a suit, a tuxedo, a sportscoat, or a pair of odd trousers.

Located in Sackville Street, the firm is not terribly old...at least not in Savile Row terms....perhaps thirty years or so. It was founded by Keith Fallan (who had apprenticed at Huntsman and learned cutting at Wealeson and Leagate) and his Wealeson collegue, Peter Harvey. It has generally catered to a younger, American constituency which favored British elegance without the more dramatic flair and/or military bearing of some other tailors. Throughout much of its existence, Keith Fallan personified the company -- crisscrossing the Atlantic, bringing with him not only swatches of fabric and half-finished garments, but an easygoing charm and personal style that generated as many friendships as customers. Sadly, Keith Fallan passed away a few years back at far, far too young an age....and I lost more than a tailor. I lost a friend. I do not know Peter Harvey terribly well as it was always Keith who journeyed to visit his American clients, but I certainly have found him very personable, knowledgable and professional...and I have seen no change in the quality or appearance of the clothes that Fallan & Harvey makes today compared to the past. As you can tell, I am quite pleased with this firm and would not hesitate to recommend it.


----------



## nikwik

If you want a picture of how it looks like...


----------



## bystander

Many thanks, *medwards*, for your help


----------



## 16412

medwards- Your story of Fallan & Harvey is really well wrote. 

And thanks for listing all the tailors - that is quiet a job to do.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

Thank you, medwards, both for this thread and you insights into *Fallan & Harvey*. Perhaps it would be informative if other Forum members shared which Savile Row tailors have -- or have had -- their trade. That listing could be a resources for those interested in pursuing whether or not to avail themselves of a certain tailor's services (or we could just share the good gossip [}]). I, for instance, have been with *Huntsman* () for quite some time.

A fair amount has been written about Huntsman on this Forum (particularly its prices and recent financial difficulties), so I will skip over the business side of the enterprise and leave it to others to bemoan what may be Savile Row's highest prices. After all, it's only money. [}] Instead I will rejoice in what I believe to be Savile Row's most distinctive and elegant look: clean, simple, trim with a rather sharp shoulder and longer coat. Huntsman is rather detail oriented which suits my obsession with little things rather well. While the one-button fastening is a Huntsman trademark, I have on one occasion opted for two and they were most accomodating. I have subsequently returned to the singleton fold, but it is worth noting that I have found them rather flexible in most regards although I have never really strayed terribly far from their house style. Nor do I have any real interest in doing so.


----------



## SilkCity

Hijack alert:

I just had a pleasant chat with Mr. Caraceni in Rome about, among other
things, the progress of some items they are cutting for me.

This Savile chat reminds me of the time I wore my Caraceni blazer to
A&S and the cutters swooned over the quality of the work--they especially admired the button holes.

Do make it a point and get to Rome before it is too late:
the Caraceni brothers have to be pushing 80.

SC


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

This could be a bit dicey, Mr. SilkCity. As I recall, it was the interjection of Italian tailoring into manton's thread on the Savile Row silhouette that first got the late departed Film Noir Buff in hot water. 

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## RJman

Huntsman, Mr. C? The gossip column must be paying well these days!


*************
RJman. Accept no imitations.


----------



## bystander

Any possibility of granting Caraceni temporary Savile Row status (by naturalization, if you like) to enable Mr *SilkCity * to make us wiser about Caraceni's craft?


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by bystander_
> Any possibility of granting Caraceni temporary Savile Row status (by naturalization, if you like) to enable Mr *SilkCity * to make us wiser about Caraceni's craft?


Well, medwards and I were anxious about the ambit of this thread spreading too wide... A new thread on I-talian tailors might be called for though[8D].


----------



## bystander

A very fair point, *RJman*.


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by bystander_
> Any possibility of granting Caraceni temporary Savile Row status (by naturalization, if you like) to enable Mr *SilkCity * to make us wiser about Caraceni's craft?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, medwards and I were anxious about the ambit of this thread spreading too wide... A new thread on I-talian tailors might be called for though[8D].
Click to expand...

I'm in.


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Chatterbox_
> 
> This could be a bit dicey, Mr. SilkCity. As I recall, it was the interjection of Italian tailoring into manton's thread on the Savile Row silhouette that first got the late departed Film Noir Buff in hot water.
> 
> Mr. Chatterbox
> London Daily Excess


Mi dispiace.
I thus, seek a pardon from this board


----------



## Bonhamesque

To follow on from what Mr. Chatterbox was saying about a new thread.
I think it's a great idea. In fact I was thinking the same thing myself recently.
If someone starts a thread on say, Huntsman by showing photos of themself wearing the garments then anyone else who has bought from there can do the same which combined with a report of their experiences could result in quite a detailed portfolio of each tailor.
If those threads were then made into stickies then anyone searching the net looking for info on a particular tailor could read them.


----------



## morgan

There's a very interesting Dege & Skinner bespoke thread going on in Another Place at the moment (London lounge).


----------



## SilkCity

Mrs. Silk City, Silk City, Mr. Caraceni.
Caraceni fitting room, Rome, 2005


----------



## dopey

> quote:_Originally posted by SilkCity_
> 
> Mrs. Silk City, Silk City, Mr. Caraceni.
> Caraceni fitting room, Rome, 2005


In another thread, someone was raving (or ranting) about how sweater-like Kiton suitcoats are, but Caraceni clearly sews circles around Kiton. Much too soft for me. I will stick to Dege and Raphael. Mrs. Silk City looks lovely.


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by SilkCity_
> 
> Mrs. Silk City, Silk City, Mr. Caraceni.
> Caraceni fitting room, Rome, 2005
> 
> 
> 
> In another thread, someone was raving (or ranting) about how sweater-like Kiton suitcoats are, but Caraceni clearly sews circles around Kiton. Much too soft for me. I will stick to Dege and Raphael. Mrs. Silk City looks lovely.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the kind words!
A client just sent some camel-hair goods to Caraceni for me and Mrs. SC now has thougths about a bespoke blazer for her side of the closet!


----------



## dopey

> quote:_Originally posted by SilkCity_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by SilkCity_
> 
> Mrs. Silk City, Silk City, Mr. Caraceni.
> Caraceni fitting room, Rome, 2005
> 
> 
> 
> In another thread, someone was raving (or ranting) about how sweater-like Kiton suitcoats are, but Caraceni clearly sews circles around Kiton. Much too soft for me. I will stick to Dege and Raphael. Mrs. Silk City looks lovely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks very much for the kind words!
> A client just sent some camel-hair goods to Caraceni for me and Mrs. SC now has thougths about a bespoke blazer for her side of the closet!
Click to expand...

I wasnâ€™t trying to be kind - or unkind. I was trying to be funny, but failed at that too. *You are all wearing sweaters in the picture.*


----------



## Will

Does Mrs. Caraceni knit sweaters?


------------------------
Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


----------



## SilkCity

The photo, in part, reflects the very essence of the Caraceni experience.

They are un-selfconsciously casual/informal/engaging while (actually) working and producing a sublime product; a sharp contrast with the certain of 'Row houses' stilted formality while trading on the past. 

N.B. I am also an A&S customer.


----------



## dopey

> quote:_Originally posted by SilkCity_
> 
> The photo, in part, reflects the very essence of the Caraceni experience.
> 
> They are un-selfconsciously casual/informal/engaging while (actually) working and producing a sublime product; a sharp contrast with the certain of 'Row houses' stilted formality while trading on the past.
> 
> N.B. I am also an A&S customer.


Yet another reason to regret that I donâ€™t travel to Italy. Since the Caraceni experience is, for the time being and perhaps forever, unattainable for me, please write more. If you care to illustrate with some photos, that would be all the more appreciated (sweaters are fine, suits would be better).


----------



## medwards

SilkCity: What an appropriate transition! There are those who think of Anderson & Sheppard's coats as being almost cardigan-like (he says, desperately trying to get this thread back on track), what would you say are the major differences in working with a Savile Row tailor such as A&S and an Italian maker?


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> SilkCity: What an appropriate transition! There are those who think of Anderson & Sheppard's coats as being almost cardigan-like (he says, desperately trying to get this thread back on track), what would you say are the major differences in working with a Savile Row tailor such as A&S and an Italian maker?


Sorry to cite that word again but the "experience"--comprising the product and the individuals actually working with the customer--at the makers could be considered a "micro" look at, simply, the differences between the Italian/English persona.

More, perhaps, on this point later on the weekend.

Strictly as to product, however, the Caraceni form is more structured than A&S, with a built-up shoulder and more fitted chest. 
It's hand-work is consistently superior to the A&S gear that I've 
purchased over the years.

I've told friends that when I wear Caraceni (especially when appearing in court--I'm an attorney), I feel like Caesar (one of the Caraceni brothers is named "Giulio"; in English "Julius"!) going into battle. When I wear A&S, I simply feel "correct".

A bit cheesy and tritely dramatic, I know, but wearing bespoke is much about how one "feels" when doing so.

I'll try to post more thoughts this weekend, and will check the inventory for some non-sweater photos!

P.S. I do like that in most of the photos on the wall of the fitting room, the pictured Caraceni brother always wears the tape around his neck--they really do work!


----------



## BespokeLover

SC,

I have seen many examples of the Caraceni coat, and am very suprised by the amount of padding they use in the shoulder.It's soft, but it isn't a natural shoulder like AS or Rubinacci.Can they make a less Roman shoulder if asked,with a more natural slope?

I also notice that they,like other Roman tailors, use a lower gorgeline vs Naples, and a lower button placement.How flexible can Caraceni be to modify, or tweak, their coat? Do they carry as a fine a selection of woollens as you'd see in London, and do they have preferences to particular mills and jobbers?

I too would like to see some finished examples of their work, and if you can demonstrate a Finollo shirt, all the better.


----------



## BespokeLover

Ah, there's one picture of Luciano Benetton in that gallery, and I was under the impression he had suits via Antonio Formosa in Naples.That picture surely had a soft,draped shoulder, and looks very Neapolitan.If that's Caraceni's look, then my above query has been answered.He can do as soft as you require.


----------



## BespokeLover

One more question,SC.

Does Caraceni have a succession plan in place, or will the shop close upon Mr Caraceni's passing? I would hope it stays in the family and continues to prosper.


----------



## uppercase

> quote:_Originally posted by SilkCity_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> SilkCity: What an appropriate transition! There are those who think of Anderson & Sheppard's coats as being almost cardigan-like (he says, desperately trying to get this thread back on track), what would you say are the major differences in working with a Savile Row tailor such as A&S and an Italian maker?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to cite that word again but the "experience"--comprising the product and the individuals actually working with the customer--at the makers could be considered a "micro" look at, simply, the differences between the Italian/English persona.
> 
> More, perhaps, on this point later on the weekend.
> 
> Strictly as to product, however, the Caraceni form is more structured than A&S, with a built-up shoulder and more fitted chest.
> It's hand-work is consistently superior to the A&S gear that I've
> purchased over the years.
> 
> I've told friends that when I wear Caraceni (especially when appearing in court--I'm an attorney), I feel like Caesar (one of the Caraceni brothers is named "Giulio"; in English "Julius"!) going into battle. When I wear A&S, I simply feel "correct".
> 
> A bit cheesy and tritely dramatic, I know, but wearing bespoke is much about how one "feels" when doing so.
> 
> I'll try to post more thoughts this weekend, and will check the inventory for some non-sweater photos!
> 
> P.S. I do like that in most of the photos on the wall of the fitting room, the pictured Caraceni brother always wears the tape around his neck--they really do work!
Click to expand...

I think that it's very instructive that silkcity, with experience in both SR and Italy, rates Caraceni's handwork as consistently superior to the AS product.

I think that SR just cannot compete with the Italians in this regard - be it suits or shirts.

I would hazard a guess that an Italian bespoke suits takes double the hours to make vis a vis SR while costing less.


----------



## mmathew

> quoteoes Caraceni have a succession plan in place, or will the shop close upon Mr Caraceni's passing? I would hope it stays in the family and continues to prosper.


I know that the question wasn't addressed to me, but I have read within the past year that they've been planning for the next generation for some time now, training the younger Caracenis.


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by BespokeLover_
> 
> SC,
> 
> I have seen many examples of the Caraceni coat, and am very suprised by the amount of padding they use in the shoulder.It's soft, but it isn't a natural shoulder like AS or Rubinacci.Can they make a less Roman shoulder if asked,with a more natural slope?
> 
> I also notice that they,like other Roman tailors, use a lower gorgeline vs Naples, and a lower button placement.How flexible can Caraceni be to modify, or tweak, their coat? Do they carry as a fine a selection of woollens as you'd see in London, and do they have preferences to particular mills and jobbers?
> 
> I too would like to see some finished examples of their work, and if you can demonstrate a Finollo shirt, all the better.


BL:
Ecco: Sig. Giulio Caraceni wearing (I hope) their work!
The un-planned photos were taken on our last trip about a year ago, by the lovely Daniela, Caraceni's assistant who, thankfully, speaks very fine English and uses e-mail. Mi dispiace for my dress as the day was 
horribly cold and damp and I dressed for comfort and speed--as I planned to do some fitting at the shop


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by SilkCity_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by BespokeLover_
> 
> SC,
> 
> I have seen many examples of the Caraceni coat, and am very suprised by the amount of padding they use in the shoulder.It's soft, but it isn't a natural shoulder like AS or Rubinacci.Can they make a less Roman shoulder if asked,with a more natural slope?
> 
> I also notice that they,like other Roman tailors, use a lower gorgeline vs Naples, and a lower button placement.How flexible can Caraceni be to modify, or tweak, their coat? Do they carry as a fine a selection of woollens as you'd see in London, and do they have preferences to particular mills and jobbers?
> 
> I too would like to see some finished examples of their work, and if you can demonstrate a Finollo shirt, all the better.
> 
> 
> 
> BL:
> Ecco: Sig. Giulio Caraceni wearing (I hope) their work!
> oopsie here it it
> The un-planned photos were taken on our last trip about a year ago, by the lovely Daniela, Caraceni's assistant who, thankfully, speaks very fine English and uses e-mail. Mi dispiace for my dress as the day was
> horribly cold and damp and I dressed for comfort and speed--as I planned to do some fitting at the shop
Click to expand...


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by BespokeLover_
> 
> Ah, there's one picture of Luciano Benetton in that gallery, and I was under the impression he had suits via Antonio Formosa in Naples.That picture surely had a soft,draped shoulder, and looks very Neapolitan.If that's Caraceni's look, then my above query has been answered.He can do as soft as you require.


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by BespokeLover_
> 
> One more question,SC.
> 
> Does Caraceni have a succession plan in place, or will the shop close upon Mr Caraceni's passing? I would hope it stays in the family and continues to prosper.


BL,
As to their flexibility re styling, they are fairly doctrinaire regarding the house style--they even, very politely but firmly in the Italian way, strongly suggested that they would only do 3 sleeve buttons on SB and 4 on DB!
Having said that, Guido (their head non-brother cutter) and I discussed working up a "La Dolce Vita" style (SB, maybe peak lapel, ventless, 2 button) dark gray, kid mohair/wool blend non-business style suit. Thus, I deduce that there is some play in their house style--though the suit I contemplated probably had its genesis at Caraceni, as short stroll around the corner from Via Veneto!

I don't know about succession plans, but I will surely find out.


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by BespokeLover_
> 
> SC,
> 
> I have seen many examples of the Caraceni coat, and am very suprised by the amount of padding they use in the shoulder.It's soft, but it isn't a natural shoulder like AS or Rubinacci.Can they make a less Roman shoulder if asked,with a more natural slope?
> 
> I also notice that they,like other Roman tailors, use a lower gorgeline vs Naples, and a lower button placement.How flexible can Caraceni be to modify, or tweak, their coat? Do they carry as a fine a selection of woollens as you'd see in London, and do they have preferences to particular mills and jobbers?
> They carry the very finest; no different (and maybe more) than the 'Row selections.
> They do trend toward Smith's, Scabal, H&S and Harrison's.
> 
> I too would like to see some finished examples of their work, and if you can demonstrate a Finollo shirt, all the better.


Ah, Finollo...another (very pricey) passion...the shirtmaking analogue
to Caraceni.
Let me take a breath, pay some bills (at the office today) and circle back on that.
In short, though, as enjoyable an "experience" as Caraceni.


----------



## mmathew

How "big" are the various Caraceni tailors in terms of staff?
A. Caraceni, Milan
Tommy & Giulio Careceni, Rome
Ferdinando Caraceni, Milan


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by mmathew_
> 
> How "big" are the various Caraceni tailors in terms of staff?
> A. Caraceni, Milan
> Tommy & Giulio Careceni, Rome
> Ferdinando Caraceni, Milan


Rome (the house I use) seems to have a relatively
small crew on premises; maybe a dozen, tops.


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by BespokeLover_
> 
> Ah, there's one picture of Luciano Benetton in that gallery, and I was under the impression he had suits via Antonio Formosa in Naples.That picture surely had a soft,draped shoulder, and looks very Neapolitan.If that's Caraceni's look, then my above query has been answered.He can do as soft as you require.


During one of my visits to the shop, Mr. Caraceni pointed out about 
six or so beautiful morning suits he'd worked up for an upcoming 
wedding of a Benetton!


----------



## BespokeLover

SC,

Would you be able to reload that picture of Guilo Caraceni again? When I expand it, it becomes very blurry and I cannot see the suit at all.Could you try the sizing like the first photo you posted.Thanks.


----------



## BespokeLover

SC,

Did you try other shirtmakers before settling on Finollo? Do Caraceni send over clients to a famous Roman house on Via Condotti?


----------



## Bonhamesque

[/quote]

I think that it's very instructive that silkcity, with experience in both SR and Italy, rates Caraceni's handwork as consistently superior to the AS product.

I think that SR just cannot compete with the Italians in this regard - be it suits or shirts.

I would hazard a guess that an Italian bespoke suits takes double the hours to make vis a vis SR while costing less.

[/quote]

OOoooooh you're making very dangerous comments there uppercase! You may have just lit the blue touch paper!

I have to say that in principle I disagree with you there (no-one can genuinely know unless they sample all S Row tailors and all Italian tailors).
Just because SilkCity believes that Anderson & Sheppard is not as good as Caraceni, doesn't mean that Italian tailors are better than Savile Row tailors.
Especially when you consider that A & S suits are nowhere near the best of S Row.
I would bet that if any Huntsman or Kilgour suit was pitted against a Caraceni it would at least equal if not surpass the level of construction and cut of a Caraceni (depending on which cutter was used of course).

Not to denegrate Caraceni, I'm sure it's a wonderful product, but a coatmaker must have 15 years of experience on his CV before he is even considered for any vacancy that may arise in Gieves or Kilgour.

In some of these family outfits you get the job because you're family above anything else.
It's also worth remembering that many Italian tailors were trained on or are heavily influenced by Savile Row methods.
I still believe that S Row is the benchmark for quality tailoring.

Yours, with a 'How Dare You?!' expression on his face, Bonhamesque.


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by BespokeLover_
> 
> SC,
> 
> Would you be able to reload that picture of Guilo Caraceni again? When I expand it, it becomes very blurry and I cannot see the suit at all.Could you try the sizing like the first photo you posted.Thanks.


BP: Try this on for size!








Regards,
SC


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by BespokeLover_
> 
> SC,
> 
> Did you try other shirtmakers before settling on Finollo? Do Caraceni send over clients to a famous Roman house on Via Condotti?


BL,
I wish I could afford to settle on Finollo as my go-to maker!
It is an occasional (and frighteningly expensive!) indulgence.
No, Caraceni mentioned a little-known shirt-maker to me that I've never tried...yet; usually because my trips to Rome follow a stay in Genoa
(Finollo) or precede a stay in Napoli (Sig. Piccolo, my Neapolitan maker).


----------



## SilkCity

> quote:_Originally posted by Bonhamesque_


I think that it's very instructive that silkcity, with experience in both SR and Italy, rates Caraceni's handwork as consistently superior to the AS product.

I think that SR just cannot compete with the Italians in this regard - be it suits or shirts.

I would hazard a guess that an Italian bespoke suits takes double the hours to make vis a vis SR while costing less.

[/quote]

OOoooooh you're making very dangerous comments there uppercase! You may have just lit the blue touch paper!

I have to say that in principle I disagree with you there (no-one can genuinely know unless they sample all S Row tailors and all Italian tailors).
Just because SilkCity believes that Anderson & Sheppard is not as good as Caraceni, doesn't mean that Italian tailors are better than Savile Row tailors.
Especially when you consider that A & S suits are nowhere near the best of S Row.
I would bet that if any Huntsman or Kilgour suit was pitted against a Caraceni it would at least equal if not surpass the level of construction and cut of a Caraceni (depending on which cutter was used of course).

Not to denegrate Caraceni, I'm sure it's a wonderful product, but a coatmaker must have 15 years of experience on his CV before he is even considered for any vacancy that may arise in Gieves or Kilgour.

In some of these family outfits you get the job because you're family above anything else.
It's also worth remembering that many Italian tailors were trained on or are heavily influenced by Savile Row methods.
I still believe that S Row is the benchmark for quality tailoring.

Yours, with a 'How Dare You?!' expression on his face, Bonhamesque.
[/quote]UH OH!
My "SilkCity" handle comes from the name given to my hometown, Paterson, NJ, founded by Alexander Hamilton, who went to the 
great forever after...well you all know the story.
Truce, gentlemen!


----------



## BespokeLover

Thanks so much,SC! Much better.

You can really notice how well that coat hugs the armhole and drapes his chest.I don't see it as fitted in the SR sense as you do, though.To me, SR fitted suits, like Kilgour/Huntsman,puff out the chest slightly,while this one hugs it in a graceful drape.That is a soft jacket,but still cut close to the body, and that shoulder is softer than what I've seen Agnelli and even Valentino,wear.

Is that Al Pacino in the bottom right corner?


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

I believe we have covered this ground before. There is a great range of quality among Savile Row tailors just as there is among Italian tailors. In terms of overall quality, style or craftmanship, neither is better. They are simply different. I would suggest that if one wants to explore these differences -- or simply discuss the merits of particular Milanese or Roman artisan -- one starts a thread on that subject. I fear this one is veering rather off course...which not only skews the discussion but makes it terribly difficult for future Forumites to find the subjects under consideration.

In yet another attempt to bring this thread back to its roots, here are some questions that one might explore:

Who makes the suit that best epitomizes Savile Row?

Does it matter at all where a London tailor is located (in Savile Row, Mayfair, the City)?

Which, if any, of the SR firms do all of their work in-house? Does that assure a better quality product.

Don't the major tailoring houses contract with many of the same workers for much of their work?

Is Richard Anderson truly more Huntsman than Huntsman?

Who now makes the softest suit?

How has the internet changes Savile Row?

Enquiring minds want to know. [}]

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## manton

As an overall matter, I think it is quite true that Italian sewing and finishing are superior to English sewing and finishing. There are exceptions all around, of course. In my opinion, the best sewing and finishing in the Row is at Maurice Sedwell (Andrew Ramroop). It nearly equals the best Italian work that I have seen. Nicolosi's is still better than all of them. But I have not combed the Spanish Quarter of Naples, where rumor has it the true peak of the profession is to be found.


----------



## BespokeLover

Richard Anderson is what I would do to improve the look of a Huntsman coat.His lapel is fuller,with more belly, a higher gorge,shorter collar, and with a softer shoulder line.I'm not enamoured by his pocket placement, which to my eye, seems too high, and I'd prefer he raise the button point by about 1/2",right where the natural waist is formed.I'm not at all sure he's got the balance of his coats right, but it's probably my failing eyes.


----------



## medwards

Mr. C: Have you found any differences in H. Huntsman's approach, style, or service as a result of its recent change of ownership?


----------



## bystander

Would forum members who have personal experience of *Richard Anderson*'s work care to share the information, including prices


----------



## Concordia

If you can find them, there are a lot of really good posts from Scott on the subject of Richard Anderson.


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by Concordia_
> 
> If you can find them, there are a lot of really good posts from Scott on the subject of Richard Anderson.


Including some photographs!


----------



## medwards

Bystander:

Here some threads about *Richard Anderson* that might be of interest:

This thread begins with a discussion of Huntsman and Richard Anderson before Darren Beaman takes it a bit off topic:

This is a short thread on Richard Anderson's custom clothing:

And an excerpt from the wonderful Savile Row Style discussion of January 2005 in which Scott discusses his experiences with Huntsman, Richard Anderson and others:

I should emphasize that this lattermost thread is of much broader interest than just Scott's discussion of his experience with Richard Anderson _et al_. This is the thread in which manton lays out his assessment of Savile Row style, SR's history -- in terms of its is sartorial approach -- is explored, individuals share some of their experiences with various firms, and Film Noir Buff joins the Forum with a rather forceful argument against SR which earns him his first time-out. The entire discussion is well worth reading for those interested in British tailoring...and in the evolution of this Forum.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> Bystander:
> 
> Here some threads that might be of interest:
> 
> This thread begins with a discussion of Huntsman and Richard Anderson before Darren Beaman takes it a bit off topic:
> 
> This is a short thread on Richard Anderson's custom clothing:
> 
> And an excerpt from the wonderful Savile Row Style discussion of January 2005 in which Scott discusses his experiences with Huntsman, Richard Anderson and others:
> 
> I should emphasize that this lattermost thread is of much broader interest than just Scott's discussion of his experience with Richard Anderson _et al_. This is the thread in which manton lays out his assessment of Savile Row style, SR's history -- in terms of its is sartorial approach -- is explored, individuals share some of their experiences with various firms, and Film Noir Buff joins the Forum with a rather forceful argument against SR which earns him his first time-out. The entire discussion is well worth reading for those interested in British tailoring...and in the evolution of this Forum.


That last link (when read in its entirety) is really to one of the best discussions yet to take place on this Forum. Thank you for finding it and keeping it alive (as much as a locked, non-archived, non-searchable thread can live anyway  )

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

Question to Andy and/or Malinda: Is there some way to stop the text from bleeding off this page? [?] On my screen at least, the width of the page exceeds the width of my screen. I believe it has to do with the size of the photograph. It is rather distracting. Thank you.

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## bystander

Thank you *medwards*, *Mr Chatterbox*, and *Concordia*


----------



## bystander

I too am experiencing difficulty in reading the text, as *Mr Chatterbox* has noted, without shifting the text of each line. It would be nice if *Andy * or *Malinda * could help


----------



## BespokeLover

The links are too long,which can be corrected with tiny.url.It has nothing to do with the photos.


----------



## bystander

Reads fine now; seems we turned a page in more than one sense. Thanks, all concerned


----------



## medwards

I see that *Thomas Mahon* is thinking of limiting his yearly output to 100 suits as a way of fulfilling customer orders in a clear and timely fashion while maintaining quality control.


----------



## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> I see that *Thomas Mahon* is thinking of limiting his yearly output to 100 suits as a way of fulfilling customer orders in a clear and timely fashion while maintaining quality control.


That roughly equates to the number a tailor can sew in a week so it looks like Thomas will try and put all his work through one tailor, ideally his colleague in Cumbria I guess.

The problem (which is Savile Row's in general) seems to be getting work done. As has often been discussed here there is a shortage of sewing tailors on Savile Row. It looks like Thomas has hit the limit of the work he can get done by the tailors. In his case this is compounded by needing tailors who can sew in the A&S style so he is fishing in the same pool as A&S themselves, and all the other ex-A&S cutters.

The proposed solution to this is to cut down the numbers to where you can be sure of getting your work made, ideally by the same tailor every time for consistency reasons. To compensate for the lost revenue the prices then go up from about $3,000 to a proposed $5,000 per suit (based on comments by his partner). This is interesting because Thomas's pitch up to now has been about A&S for 20% less (value for money), now he would become significantly more expensive.

The other saving from a reduced output is travel. At the moment Thomas is building a large travelling market, this could be reduced dramatically with the 100 suit plan saving a lot of time and money. 
Business expansion now becomes driven by the scalable side, such as the shirts, where production can be outsourced.


----------



## andreyb

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> I see that *Thomas Mahon* is thinking of limiting his yearly output to 100 suits as a way of fulfilling customer orders in a clear and timely fashion while maintaining quality control.


Sorry to be harsh, but this sounds like a *really bad* decision -- the first bad decision I've read from Thomas.

Of course, I'm not speaking on his desire to fulfull customer orders and maintain quality. I'm speaking on this magical "hundred" and THAT label -- stating 01/100/06, 02/100/06, etc ().

First, they supposed to make EXACTLY 100 garments each year -- but what if one'll order a pair of odd trousers? A sports jacket? An odd waistcoat? Basicly anything odd? Is it still qualify as a numbered garment?

Second, you have to read Thomas' partner's blog entry: . Profits, brand recognition, scaling of business -- a far cry from what I want to hear from a tailor.

Third, if you are overwhelmed with work, there are much more tactful ways to inform clients about this -- Alex Kabbaz showed some of them. But to create a "golden hundred"? Us and the rest?

Andrey


----------



## 16412

Thomas is not only a cutter, but also a very good salesman. Good salemen are inspriration speakers, so to say. If he is running out of workers, then he needs to start an apprenticeship program. A good place to get future workers is going to schools and showing the school children the wonders of tailoring. If a school refuses to let Thomas come in and talk and demonstrate for about an hour, then that school would be failing it's purpose.

One person wrote that if people don't see something desireable, then how can they desire it. If you wait till somebody is 30-40 years old before they get to wear tailored to see and feel it benefits- it is kinda to late to talk them into the tailoring trade. Some people are ment for somethings in life, such as Mozart. Who can write like him? I can't even write music. Can you imagine him doing some other kind of work? As Mozart was ment for music- aren't some people ment to be tailors? I would think so. As you can tell I'm not ment to be a writer. I think there would be lots of tailors if children had been given direction toward it. I suppose most people think that tailors sit at a manufactures job sewing thousands of collar, or darts, hems, or sleeve everyday and think what a horrible job, when really a tailors job is very different. As somebody gave Thomas an apprentice job, maybe it is time that Thomas gives other people that same opportunity.


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by andreyb_
> 
> Second, you have to read Thomas' partner's blog entry: . Profits, brand recognition, scaling of business -- a far cry from what I want to hear from a tailor. Andrey


Indeed, as Andrey suggests, Hugh's blog is a very interesting discussion of the business decision -- and marketing approach -- behind this. Since Andrey first posted this, there has been a long discussion on that site about the merits, implications etc of *Thomas Mahon*'s potential approach. I too would recommend this discussion both as an insight into this particular tailor and to the future of Savile Row. It reminds us that while there are wonderful artisans in this trade who care deeply about their work, while there is marvellous history and tradition, and while there may be many special relationships between tailor and client, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that in the end a Savile Row tailoring shop is a _business_.


----------



## bystander

Having read the blog, I do find the approach somewhat out of sync with what I would see as the ethos and mind-set of savile row: I suspect the average suit from an upmarket designer e.g., Hermes would already cost more than the average suit from savile row, and limited editions are part of the commercial designer genre. 

In my view, savile row is both a mind-set and a physical location. I am not sure whether Thomas, already physically outside savile row and now looking to abandon the mind-set as well, would end up looking more like a commercial designer than a savile row tailor.

I hasten to add that I am not saying that a commercial designer is something inferior to a savile row style bespoke tailoring house, or, indeed, vice versa. But I am saying that they are different creatures, in a manner of speaking, who cater to different clientele and markets; essentially a difference in ethos


----------



## passingtime

According to Hugh (gapingvoid.com) Thomas's main issue is getting suits made ("Our main issue is no longer finding customers, but finding the sewing tailors to do the jobs.") so a realistic suit limit is a needed. Once that is decided then the only thing left to do is the presentation of the decision, in this case the limited edition - making a virtue out of necessity. 

As I recall Thomas has a tailor in Cumbria who would be the logical person to do the sewing, one tailor will produce about 100 suits a year which ties in nicely and allows a consistent quality which is hard to get with multiple tailors.

Now the English Cut strategy changes and, as bystander says, becomes more of a design house (maybe thats the wrong word) selling shirts and other related goods off the back of the suits.

The only thing that seems to be up for debate is the pricing, Hugh says one thing - Thomas says another, but I think the prices have to rise. This will shake out the lower end ordering the odd suit or two and leave the higher end who order multiples. That will allow Thomas to reduce his travel and make the saving Hugh identifies ("...also means we spend less money on travelling, which is our biggest profit guzzler.").


----------



## Concordia

Pricing will be an interesting topic for Thomas. If he does go to A&S levels, he'll be left only with the clients who find him better than his old employer. Almost as good, but better value won't cut it. He does have a built-in edge on Anderson & Sheppard, as their suits get nicked for the full duty, whereas Thomas's (with their Carlisle return address) don't always attract notice from the post office. That's worth several hundred dollars right there.

However, he already charges more than Ed DeBoise at Steed, who is doing comparable (but definitely not identical) work in a more discreet sort of way. Presumably Ed is watching all of this with some interest.


----------



## Concordia

I wonder how much day-to-day influence Hugh has on Thomas's business. There's a lot of apparent contact in cyberspace, but after all we're talking about a guy who's in marketing and PR-- and therefore good at creating a buzz where none existed before. From limited personal observation, I get the impression that when push comes to shove it's really just Thomas cutting suits and sending them off to his freelance tailors to get made up-- like any other independent.


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## 16412

Some artist number there prints and become famous and there art becomes wanted, and then the prices go up and up and up into the hunderds of $. Perhapes this is what Thomas is planning on.

He would have at least two tailors working, because 20 hours per suit is not enough time to make a quality suit. A jacket alone takes about 35-40 hours.


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## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by WA_
> 
> He would have at least two tailors working, because 20 hours per suit is not enough time to make a quality suit. A jacket alone takes about 35-40 hours.


Yes, he has several jacket and trouser makers working for him on a freelance basis-- as is pretty common on SR. Some of them also do work for A&S, and I would guess Steed and Hitchcock as well.


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> I have always been uncomfortable with the Jekyll and Hyde nature of English Cut and Gaping Void. This particular issue has driven the point home for me. I am glad Thom feels the need to limit production to keep quality up but the limit should be that number of suits that he can make or have made without letting quality slip. The number should be fluid and change with the nature of the orders and the availability of sewers. It might be at an annual rate of 120 suits a year in March and at a rate of 70 suits a year in July. I want to know that the tailor is managing that process with an eye on quality, not on selling the mystique of a Ferrari or Aston Martin as Hugh writes in his blog. Setting a number not just smacks of artifice - it is artifice. Thinking about this to the point where you have told customers that is what you may do is a sign that there is something off with internal priorities. I know that when Raphael tells me about his order flow and how long something will take, he is telling me based on the needs and expressed priorities of his customers and the capacity of his workers. When he has hit a wall on delivery, he has been very upfront and told me what it was and why. If I were to hear the same thing from Thom, I would have no idea whether it was English Cut or Gaping Void doing the talking and whether the issue related to production or marketing.
> 
> Clearly, Macleodâ€™s marketing skills have combined with Mahonâ€™s tailoring skills to build a successful business. I am sure I would be happy with Thom the tailor (assuming I could be sold on really soft tailoring). I donâ€™t think I am thrilled with the combination. But as my trade is with others, my opinion is not what they need to consider.


This neatly summarizes my feelings sbout this. If Mahon wants to limit the number of suit orders he takes per year because he can't cut more suits and maintain quality or because he doesn't want to travel so much or even because he would rather take a couple of days off per week to play golf, I'm all in favor of it. It's the cheesy limited-edition Franklin Mint marketing of it that leaves me cold.


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## sysdoc

I've briefly met Hugh on one occasion when I had my last fitting with Thomas. As far as I understand it, Hugh Macleod is merely the guy who puts Thomas Mahonâ€™s writing online and who takes care of the English Cut website. I doubt that he has any considerable stake in Thomasâ€™ company and Iâ€™d be seriously surprised had he any significant input on the direction of English Cut.

Iâ€™d normally ask Thomas right away, but heâ€™s currently going through the final preparations for his US trip and I donâ€™t want to bug him. I recommend however that everyone who has been put off by the limitation issue in general and by Hugh Macleodâ€™s blog in particular to directly get in touch with Thomas and to discuss the issues with him rather than engaging in speculations and judgments.

A couple of days ago, Thomas assured me of those things:

He is not in the process of artificially blowing up his pricing.
He was utterly unaware of Macleodâ€™s comments about English Cut at gapingvoid and he still hasn't read all of Macleod's stuff due to time constraints.
The decision about the limitation as well as the (IMO cheesy) numbering is not yet final.


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## morgan

[Not at all about TM and I hope members won't mind, but I have found this quite useful for newbies like me choosing a SR tailor who'd like an insight into house styles*. It's an old article from The Sunday Times and I thought it should be posted in the SR thread:

For what it's worth, I am down to choosing between Dege & Skinner and Fallan & Harvey. Different styles, I know, but both with highly appealing virtues. Both are not averse to me taking pictures of the suit as it's being made. If any other SR newbies want me to find out anything on their behalf, please email me and I'll do my best.

Morgs

*though what the hell Gieves & Thieves are doing there I don't know.]


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## sysdoc

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> Macleod's own writings, which I have been following since the debut of English Cut, indicate otherwise. Hugh certainly sees himself as a partner, not as merely the techie who publishes the blog. Maybe he uses his own blog to inflate his role in Mahon's business, but that would be surprising as it is too public for Mahon to let it go unchecked if Macleod's statements were false or exaggerations.


Well, let's put it this way ... I've been told otherwise by Thomas ... and until very recently, Thomas had not been aware of Macleod posting stuff that regards English Cut at gapingvoid and I still doubt that he has actually had a look at it. Thomas is not as "techie" as we might expect. I wonder if he has even been aware of gapingvoid. Quite frankly, I have also not been aware of it until Andre posted the link. I wonder how many of Thomas' customers are aware of gapingvoid and Macleod's claims. Let's face it, who really cares about gapingvoid?

I'd say as far as Thomas Mahon and English Cut is concerned, the only meaningful content is found at https://www.englishcut.com.

It's entirely Hugh Macleod's business as _"what he sees himself"_.

'Nough said.


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by morgan_
> [Not at all about TM and I hope members won't mind, but I have found this quite useful for newbies like me choosing a SR tailor who'd like an insight into house styles*. It's an old article from The Sunday Times and I thought it should be posted in the SR thread:
> 
> For what it's worth, I am down to choosing between Dege & Skinner and Fallan & Harvey. Different styles, I know, but both with highly appealing virtues. Both are not averse to me taking pictures of the suit as it's being made. If any other SR newbies want me to find out anything on their behalf, please email me and I'll do my best.
> Morgs


Morgan:

Earlier in this thread, you asked me about my observations relating to one of your options -- *Fallan & Harvey * -- and I have shared my experiences over the last 25 years in a posting above. Inasmuch as you are also considering *Dege & Skinner*, I thought I would add a word or two about my experiences there as well.

While Fallan & Harvey have been my principal tailors for two and a half decades, I have -- on occasion -- had Dege make for me, generally garments that I thought most appropriate to their approach and style. Moreover, Robert Whittaker had been my shirtmaker for many years (dating back to the time he apprenticed with the Tucker brothers at Bowring Arundel) and I have recently returned to him. He, as you know, as now been at Dege for quite some time.

A great deal has been made of Dege's military/equestrian heritage on this Forum. There is no question that there is a preferred Dege approach: a clearly structured garment with a somwhat rounded hourglass figure and as much waist as possible, a tad bigger on the chest and somewhat fuller over the hips. It is a very English look and may well particularly well suited to men of larger stature. They have great experience working with equestrian wear and make very good, stylish, yet functional riding and hunt clothes. Likewise, they have a nice track record in terms of country clothing and in fashioning tweeds and similar fabrics. That said, Dege is far more flexible than their image on this Forum would indicate and are certainly willing to work with customers to meet their wants and needs. I have found their customer service first-rate.

At the same time, I will tell you that -- in my personal instance -- a Dege coat does _feel_ different on me than coats made by Fallan & Harvey. I am afraid it is a bit hard for me to put into words but an oversimplification would be that a Fallan & Harvey coat feels bit more relaxed, with freer movement. I tend to be less conscious of it. My Dege garments feel -- as they are -- more structured and formal. My personal preference is generally for the former, but others may take a different point of view. The important point is that the distinctions between tailors in terms of look and structure manifest themselves in garments that not only look but feel different. And that is something you may want to take into consideration in making this choice.


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> medwards: I wonder if you are making a fair comparison when you compare your F&H coats with your D&S coats. I say that because I notice that Dege varies the internal structure and shaping somewhat with the type of garment they are making and that you say you have used them for the specific things you think they are well-suited for. Perhaps you are choosing them to make the things that they are most likely to make in their most structured format?


You are quite right. My point was simply that coats that are structured differently not only look diffent but feel different as well and that is something a customer (Morgan in this instance) would want to take into account. I fear that this is an area that is oft overlooked -- and undiscussed -- by individuals in their selection of a tailor. While there is often great attention to the look one wants, there is less consideration of how such a garment might feel. As I noted, Dege is far more flexible than is generally recognized and works hard to accomodate a client's desires. However, in my own case, I have selected them for their traditional approach.


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## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by sysdoc_
> 
> I'd say as far as Thomas Mahon and English Cut is concerned, the only meaningful content is found at https://www.englishcut.com.


I would have to disagree with that, decisions announced in English Cut are often announced in Gapingvoid much earlier. Take the shirts as an example, that was in Gapingvoid 17th December and English Cut 14th January. Hugh does the marketing and as such Gapingvoid is a fascinating look into the workings of the business.


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## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> medwards: I wonder if you are making a fair comparison when you compare your F&H coats with your D&S coats. I say that because I notice that Dege varies the internal structure and shaping somewhat with the type of garment they are making and that you say you have used them for the specific things you think they are well-suited for. Perhaps you are choosing them to make the things that they are most likely to make in their most structured format?
> 
> 
> 
> You are quite right. My point was simply that coats that are structured differently not only look diffent but feel different as well and that is something a customer (Morgan in this instance) would want to take into account. I fear that this is an area that is oft overlooked -- and undiscussed -- by individuals in their selection of a tailor. While there is often great attention to the look one wants, there is less consideration of how such a garment might feel. As I noted, Dege is far more flexible than is generally recognized and works hard to accomodate a client's desires. However, in my own case, I have selected them for their traditional approach.
Click to expand...

Absolutely true, but very hard to predict. The nuances are nearly invisible, but nevertheless affect how you feel when you put the thing on. Even within the same shop, two more or less identically-styled jackets can feel different if they were finished by different tailors. If you walked in off the street you might never be aware of that level of choice that the cutter will make for you, and even if you were, you might not know in advance which you'd like.


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## medwards

Speaking of Savile Row blogs, I see that Steven Hitchcock has updated his with a discussion of how to get into the tailoring trade ( ).


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## Mr. Chatterbox

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> Speaking of Savile Row blogs, I see that Steven Hitchcock has updated his with a discussion of how to get into the tailoring trade ( ).


Perhaps that will assist Mr. Mahon in finding staff to meet his workload. [}]

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## morgan

From medwards:

_It is a very English look and may well particularly well suited to men of larger stature. _

Interesting and generous in your responses as always, medwards, I, for one, am very grateful.

I am, in fact, very skinny in build. I saw a structured coat on a fellow pencilneck last week with a double vent at the back and roped shoulders. I can't say I was too impressed, for while I found the dandified style lovely, the fit did seem rigid. Of course, I've no way of knowing where the suit was from, but I can't see how it could be relaxed as a fit without sacrificing the details that make it special.

I'm going to see if each tailor has some signature work I can look at and possibly even try on.

As ever medwards, my thanks.


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## sysdoc

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> Hugh has been actively involved in promoting Thomâ€™s business on the web and elsewhere for a long time and Thom owes much of his success to Hugh (and to his own talents, of course). You are a customer because of Hugh. I think it is naive to think that Hugh is merely Tomâ€™s techie. If he is, than he is a liar.


Please allow me to disagree. Tiny little 'gapingvoid' with its few readers is utterly incapable of promoting a brand or product that addresses an even tinier group of people. Sure, it can claim it does. It's not hard to tell that Macleod's modesty is of somewhat limited nature. Only extremely few Internet users even know the meaning of 'bespoke'. How high do you think is the percentage of actual or future bespoke customers among the few gapingvoid readers? Besides, where else did Macleod promote Thomas Mahon? In his local pub?

I am not a customer of Thomas Mahon because of Hugh, unless you consider Hugh's job of putting Tom's pamphlets online. I have chosen Thomas Mahon from a rather considerable number of SR tailors and so far I am extremely pleased.

Tom's website English Cut got promoted by one of the most important promoting entities of the web - GOOGLE. How many websites do you know that contain really useful information about Savile Row bespoke suits? There's AA, SF and then not even a handful more. Thomas is writing well and I am not the only one who keeps returning to English Cut once Google had got me there.



> quote:
> From Hughâ€™s own blog:
> 
> and


I know - I have read that too. Do I really need to spell out what I think about it? There's even places where Macleod modestly claims that he *runs* English Cut ... with Thomas Mahon (would be a bit hard without him). Cough!



> quote:
> 
> I believe you are mistaken and that there is quite a lot to be learned about English Cut from reading gapingvoid (along with blog driven marketing generally). I have certainly found that so, but you are free to think otherwise. You can start if you change your mind.


Sorry, I don't understand your point. When I want to "learn about English Cut", where would I go? To gapingvoid of all places? I talk to Thomas. I'd say that this is as simple and as straight forward as it goes.

I'm afraid that my impression is diametrically opposite to yours. English Cut ain't benefiting from gapingvoid. Instead, 'virtual' gapingvoid is trying to skim off some weight and credibility from the 'real' and elusive bespoke tailoring firm English Cut, which is impersonated by Thomas Mahon and nobody else.


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## Bonhamesque

I agree with you.
Hugh simply turned a tailor's web site into a blog then got loads of people to start writing on it, making sure that they mentioned lots of keywords like 'bespoke suits' etc.
The result pushed the site to the top of Google's natural listings and consequently increased his business. Good SEO work, no more no less.

By the way, is anyone else on this forum getting sick of talking about Thomas Mahon..?


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## bystander

Has anyone had first hand experience of Clive Gilkes's work (at Richard Anderson), and, if so, would the member care to share


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## passingtime

> quote:_Originally posted by sysdoc_
> 
> Please allow me to disagree. Tiny little 'gapingvoid' with its few readers is utterly incapable of promoting a brand or product that addresses an even tinier group of people.


According to Alexa English Cut and AAAC have roughly the same number of readers while Gapingvoid is two to three times bigger. It drives traffic to English Cut with Gapingvoid mentioning English Cut 185 times (excluding the EC advert) while English Cut mentions Gapingvoid 3 times.

Personally I find this fascinating because of what it reveals about life on Savile Row. It is about the difficulty of getting goods made, quality control, marketing of bespoke goods, brand building, diversification - how this things are managed behind the veil.


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## RJman

Through his blog I've gained a lot of respect for Mahon. He's been disarmingly charming, but also extremely frank. As well as being informative and entertaining, he's achieved a great deal of transparency into the inner workings of the upper reaches of the clothes world, and he's listened to whippersnappers like me who have no right to weigh in. I think it's good he recognizes the issue of getting overstretched. It sounds like he's thinking creatively of how to avoid that.

Hugh's blog disturbs me. I have little patience for marketing in the world of quality clothes, and the people who weigh in on gaping void tend to be marketers appluading Hugh's strategies with no regard for retaining quality and integrity except insofar as it preserves brand image. Of course, Hugh's assistance has helped Mahon's business to flourish. The next step of it will be interesting.

I take particular exception to Hugh's statement that they can and should be selling suits for around $5000 given the quality and reputation of the make. Mahon could be making the best suits in the world, but the few competitors he has who are selling suits around that price -- Gieves, Kilgour, Huntsman, Sedwells, Hayward and a few others -- offer a fixed retail location and a permanent presence. Most of them are large by Row standards and apparently offer consistency if not the personal attention it seems Mahon offers. Currently, Mahon appears to have a sitting at Scabal, and appears to visit the Row at intervals. This was a factor in his prices being somewhat lower than the big boys. However, at $5000 he might actually outprice Anderson & Sheppard, which would be ironic.


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## bystander

Has anyone made an "entry level bespoke" from *Kilgour*? If so, was it up to expectation?


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## Concordia

I am wearing one today made from Minnis flannel-- in honor of our single-digit temperatures. It is pretty good. Only slight complaints I would have with the Shanghai product is with some of the detailing. Belt loops, primarily, which are way better than HK standard but not quite SR. I addressed that by getting this suit with high-cut trousers for braces only. 

Also, the buttonholes are a little peculiar. The front and sleeve buttons are up to London's best standard. The boutonniere (not standard-- you have to ask) is OK but not great and only 3/4 of an inch long, not 1 inch or more as is standard in the best houses. Also, the inside breast pocket has a buttonhole that is not a keyhole. Makes it really hard to enclose the Blackberry with an easy motion.

Finally, I can't swear that the padding is as good as what you'd get in a London-made suit. 

But it's the same good cut you would get if it were London made, and good value at the price (around $2,000). Better cut (for me) and lower price than Oxxford, and similar price to bespoke at Rizzo's in Boston, which appears to be comparable in quality and an excellent bargain as such things go. Good for things that will wear out a bit faster, like summer jackets, woolen flannels, and so on. BTW, they do a skeleton lining in summer jackets that makes for astonishing lightness.

My advice would be to get one suit at least made with a basted fitting, and then go to the no-fitting option once things are to your satisfaction. Their fitters are very good, and they will make alterations if need be. I will need about 1/8 inch taken up on the front of the sleeve of this particular suit, but will wait for their June trip to have it sent back.


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## bystander

Thanks *Concordia*, that was very helpful, and I should add, more reassuring than I had expected.

I have some questions though:
1. Are braces and belt loops the only two options for the trousers
2. Was there much adrift at the baste fitting stage; I ask this because the baste fitting involves availability, and hence a much longer wait in my case (by 6 months or so)
3. The quality of padding does bother me, chiefly because the Kilgour website, if I recall correctly, says that the material is all put together in Savile Row, parcelled with the paper pattern (also cut in Savile Row), and then sent off to wherever 
4. You say the "boutonniere (not standard-- you have to ask) is OK but not great and only 3/4 of an inch long, not 1 inch or more as is standard in the best houses": do you think Kilgour would make it to proper size if asked


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## Concordia

I'm sure you can do other sorts of adjusters for the trousers. If I'm not wearing a belt, however, I want braces. Never liked the other options.

The basted fitting for my Entry Level suit before this one was basically on track, although I'd had a fully-bespoke before that. I don't know how they'd do if you came off the street and asked for a suit to be mailed directly to you in 10 weeks.

The padding is not awful foam or anything-- far from it. But as an experiment I had two spring/summer suits made last year, one London-made and one from Shanghai. My feverish imagination seems to remember that the padding for the latter was a different color. Anyway, the finished product feels like a real suit, and actually fits/feels a tiny bit better than the corresponding London suit. This might be worth a discussion with whoever would take your measurements.

I'm sure if you insisted, they would do a proper length boutonniere. Can't add much to the expense from their point of view.

Anyway, to repeat-- you might be able to get slightly better value if you sniffed around in the "off the row" establishments. However, the only comparably-priced option I have in my town (apart from going to Rizzo's, which I will start doing for some projects) is Steed, which sells a very different sort of garment. And if you stick it out long enough to have a good pattern on file, the "no-fitting" option provides a very large price advantage vs. London-made.


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## medwards

For those not familiar with the issue at hand, about a decade ago *Kilgour* began a program it terms "entry level" bespoke. As a resource for others interested in additional information related to this approach, this link should be of help:


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## bystander

Thank you for your help *Concordia*.

This avoidance of baste fitting on my part warrants some clarification. I intend to make two trips: one for measurement, the other for the final fitting. The garment, I believe, could be adjusted as necessary as a result of the final fitting, and, I understand, sent to me after a couple of weeks. Between these two trips (some 5 weeks apart) I could make a third one, but that perhaps does not help Kilgour get the baste fitting in. After these visits, my next chance to visit London would likely be in October


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## bystander

Thank you, *medwards*, for your consideration


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## jklu

I also have had an entry-level suit done at Kilgour. Concordia's comments are spot-on.

A couple additions. Yes, they will use side tabs if asked. The cutters do a pretty good job off the bat; at my fitting, all the important fit issues were correct - shoulders, armholes, etc. Still, the fitting is still highly recommended to settle issues of fit, silhouette, and other details. The trimmings, I've been told, and as far as I can tell, are top-quality; it's the detailing that suffers. The lapel hole on my suit isn't really a keyhole, but it isn't exactly straight either; it widens a touch on one end. My suit has just a bit of wadding for structure, so I can't speak to the padding quality.

EDIT: I have found their time estimates a bit optimistic. I don't know if five weeks apart will be enough time. You may always enquire.


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## Concordia

Maybe the best route to take with this program would be to have a basted fitting, and then if things are on track, have the suit finished up and sent to you directly. There are a few risks with that, but their quality control is very good. The biggest problem would be on the cuff buttons, which are hard to fix if the sleeve is the wrong length. To deal with this, you could always have the buttons tacked on initially, and then have the buttonholes cut after the final alterations are requested in October. That way, you'll have a few months of wearing the thing before you cut the cord.


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## bystander

> quote:jklu Posted - 02/27/2006 : 07:50:03 I also have had an entry-level suit done at Kilgour. Concordia's comments are spot-on.
> 
> ...it's the detailing that suffers. The lapel hole on my suit isn't really a keyhole, but it isn't exactly straight either; it widens a touch on one end. My suit has just a bit of wadding for structure, so I can't speak to the padding quality.
> 
> EDIT: I have found their time estimates a bit optimistic. I don't know if five weeks apart will be enough time. You may always enquire.


Thanks *jklu*, I shall indeed make a point about the time schedule. Any suggestions on how to meet the "detailing" challenge


> quote:Concordia Posted - 02/27/2006 : 08:16:50 Maybe the best route to take with this program would be to have a basted fitting, and ..have the suit finished up and sent to you directly. ...The biggest problem would be on the cuff buttons, which are hard to fix if the sleeve is the wrong length. To deal with this, you could always have the buttons tacked on initially, and then have the buttonholes cut after the final alterations are requested in October.


Thanks *Concordia*; thats not such a bad idea, and I shall discuss it with Kalgour once matters get truly serious


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## Bonhamesque

No disrespect to Concordia et al, but I think if you're serious about getting a great S Row suit for that budget, you should forget about all these minor niggles.
I mean seriously, is the width of the buttonhole etc. really that important when you're getting a product that has possibly one of the best silhouette's on S Row for less than half of the full bespoke price?
If you want absolute perfection then spend the Â£3,000 and go fully bespoke. If you can put up with these silly little foibles then go for it.
I've had one of these suits made (Ritchie was my cutter) and I think that when you bear in mind that it's almost bespoke it represents fantastic value for money. 
No-one I ever meet can tell that it's not stitched together on S Row.
It's a great suit.


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## RJman

AFAIK it _is_ bespoke, just made in China. It sounds great; Kilgour adds value with their cutting, measuring and finishing, and the end product sounds like a good suit.

*************
RJman. Accept no imitations.


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## bystander

> quote:Bonhamesque Posted - 02/27/2006 : 08:58:27 No disrespect to Concordia et al, but I think if you're serious about getting a great S Row suit for that budget, you should forget about all these minor niggles....
> 
> No-one I ever meet can tell that it's not stitched together on S Row.
> It's a great suit.


Thank you, *Bonhamesque*; you sure have a point! One good turn deserves another! I should advise you to steer clear of *Concordia* and *jklu*, because you can be sure that if anyone can tell its not the 3,000 pound thing and only masquarading as one, its these two!!!


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## Concordia

I was only being picky to give the full consumer warning, and I should have stressed that more at the outset. Somebody always has to pay for lunch. 

Kilgour's cutters are really great, however, and the construction process doesn't short-change that aspect at all.


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## Morris

The experience of impersonating an English gentleman as related by an American freelance writer. Provides some insight into his bespoke experiences.

https://www.winespectator.com/Cigar/CA_Features/CA_Feature_Basic_Template/0,2344,574,00.html

-- Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.


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## archduke

I am so glad that the discussion has steered towards Kilgour.

I have just phoned them today after seeing an example of their slim one button coat on some article on the web.

Since I live in uk and Kilgour are open on Saturdays this is an added advantage. I cannot tell you how convenient Saturdays can be.

My question was also about the London v Shanghai workmanship. I understand that both suits are handmade. The Shanghai has a basting stage whilst with the London you can have as many fittings as necessary. 

Concordia, have you noticed a difference in the feel of the two coats?I want the slim fit, high narrow armhole etc look. The beauty of SR is that this can be made to feel very comfortable.

Morgan
I understand that Dege do not do handpadding of the lapels but this is not necessarily a reflection of the final quality and feel.
Fallan and Harvey were recommended to me by a chap in a Regent st. cloth merchants as having very high quality stitching but I have no personal experience


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## bystander

*RJman*, your confidence in the matter is reassuring indeed; thanks. *Concordia*, its important and helpful to have guys like you on board to make sure one is not sold "short", or at the very least any shorter than is absolutely unavoidable. Some details have come up and one can make a note of these with Kilgour at measurement time, but, in general how does one focus the Kilgour people on details in your view?


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## Concordia

As much as they can, the London and Shanghai Kilgours feel the same. It's a wonderful cut.

I haven't made any special effort to focus the staff there on details. After the spring suit came back to me without a boutonniere, I requested it for the flannel. 

And I'm avoiding belt loops, especially as I think the trouser cut is their weak link (on my body, anyway). It's easier to make trousers look better when they hang from the shoulder. It takes a miracle to produce the same effect with a belt. For $2k and no fittings, I'm not expecting miracles.

That's about it. As I've said, the quality control there is really pretty good. The only minor glitch I've found is that the flannel suit and some summer jackets came back 1/2 inch different in length only. They like the longer jacket (they go by the half-distance-to the-floor algorithm) and I was intrigued by the shorter ones. We're compromising on the next round by shortening the coat 1/4 inch. That's really the only issue I've ever had there. 

Oh, one more thing- I'd asked for a fin bar fin (i.e., everything done except buttons) on the spring suits because I expected to be in London for a final fitting. When I got there, they'd finished them anyway. There were a few small changes to make, and the sleeves were a tad long. But some wizardry on their part, and nobody's the wiser. I chalk that up to the cost of doing business with a big shop and not a sole proprietorship. Someone obviously didn't read the note card, and tried to be helpful.


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## archduke

Concordia

Would you order another Shanghai? That would a recommendation indeed. 
BTW Did you have the one button?


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## bystander

> quote:Morris Posted - 02/27/2006 : 09:26:14
> The experience of impersonating an English gentleman as related by an American freelance writer. Provides some insight into his bespoke experiences.
> 
> https://www.winespectator.com/Cigar/CA_Features/CA_Feature_Basic_Template/0,2344,574,00.html
> 
> -- Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.


*Morris*: the manner in which our "American freelance writer" went about his business was a true waste of his budget. The money could have gone much further. For a start he should have explored Kilgour's entry level bespoke..._don't you think_?


----------



## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by archduke_
> 
> Concordia
> 
> Would you order another Shanghai? That would a recommendation indeed.
> BTW Did you have the one button?


I would and I have-- two odd jackets and two some fresco trousers. I wouldn't use Kilgour for every project, and can see a day when I would only have a London-made product from their shop. But the Entry Level offers fair value to the extent that such things exist in tailoring.

Others who are easier to fit might get a better garment from Oxxford, but I don't care to go down that road.

I've not done the one-button thing. Not sure why, but it seems a little flashy.


----------



## erasmus

> quote:_Originally posted by Bonhamesque_
> 
> No disrespect to Concordia et al, but I think if you're serious about getting a great S Row suit for that budget, you should forget about all these minor niggles.
> I mean seriously, is the width of the buttonhole etc. really that important when you're getting a product that has possibly one of the best silhouette's on S Row for less than half of the full bespoke price?
> If you want absolute perfection then spend the Â£3,000 and go fully bespoke. If you can put up with these silly little foibles then go for it.
> I've had one of these suits made (Ritchie was my cutter) and I think that when you bear in mind that it's almost bespoke it represents fantastic value for money.
> No-one I ever meet can tell that it's not stitched together on S Row.
> It's a great suit.


Bonhamesque, Ritchie measured me on the last US trip and he strikes me as being a very nice chap. He astutely dissected my MTM suit explaining what he would change from front to back and top to bottom. It was a mini-lesson in balance.

Concordia, thank you for your helpful commentary in all of its details. Your feedback here and on LL helped me decide to try Kilgour.

"Ease and grace in everything" - Gracian


----------



## Bonhamesque

Yeah Ritchie's great.

Nice guy and one of the best cutters on the Row i.m.h.o.


----------



## Morris

> quote:_Originally posted by bystander_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Morris Posted - 02/27/2006 : 09:26:14
> The experience of impersonating an English gentleman as related by an American freelance writer. Provides some insight into his bespoke experiences.
> 
> https://www.winespectator.com/Cigar/CA_Features/CA_Feature_Basic_Template/0,2344,574,00.html
> 
> -- Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.
> 
> 
> 
> *Morris*: the manner in which our "American freelance writer" went about his business was a true waste of his budget. The money could have gone much further. For a start he should have explored Kilgour's entry level bespoke..._don't you think_?
Click to expand...

Agreed. Our friend certainly did not diligence his shopping trip. If he had, he would have still left Saville Row with exquisite garments, but less damage to his bank account.

-- Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.


----------



## Concordia

In fairness to the author, sometimes you just want A&S and Lobb. There are other firms as good, but to some consumers, no real substitute. But no question that if he'd gone to, say, Steed and Cleverley he would have saved over $2000 and got very good work done.


----------



## Will

I had a measurement and two fittings for my first order. After that it's one and cut the sleeve buttons.



------------------------
Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


----------



## archduke

Will

Were you able to specify any details of cut or fit to A&S or did they just do their own thing?

Anyone have Kilgour AND A&S? And what is the verdict? I know the comparison is difficult but overall impression etc....


----------



## Concordia

I do-- they are completely different but each house is good in its own way. I prefer A&S for DB above all others, and Kilgour's cut is among the best for SB. I happen also to prefer trousers from A&S. Sadly, they have no Entry Level option, and their shipments to the US get taxed without mercy.

But to repeat, they are not in the least bit interchangeable.


----------



## medwards

I see that *Darren Beaman* has announced that he will be making all new orders (suits, waistcoats, sportsjackets, trousers and overcoats) himself, rather than sub-contract the work to independent outside tailors. "In other words," he writes, "I will be the one who puts in every last stitch. My reasons for this are to ensure that I have better control over the entire making process (since I will know if I can in fact deliver on any given deadline), and it will allow me to ensure greater consistency throughout my work product. Although this new approach means I ultimately have to cut back on the number of suits that I make in a year..."


----------



## bystander

I think two points need some clarifying in context of the Cigar Aficionado article, _en passant_, as the discussion moves to the next topic:

*"English Gentleman":*

There can be several interpretations of this fictional prototype, the "English gentleman". And, our friend visualizes it as a person sloshing in money, ready to spend it post-haste, running hither and thither to get whatever he has been advised as the must haves for an "English gentleman": staying at a celebrity hotel, asking the concierge where to get an expensive suit or a truly expensive pair of shoes, etc. If indeed there are such "English gentlemen", then one is not sure whether they exist outside the article. I do not know of anyone who has come across this kind of person and thought of him as a "gentleman". One would have thought that the concept of a gentleman has something to do with a form of behaviour and a contextually appropriate dress.

*About the number of fittings from a London bespoke tailor:*

There was a time well not so long ago (pre-China, Hong Kong, Mauritius, Morocco, Thailand, etc etc, a time when whatever needed doing by a London tailor was actually done in London) when matters regarding the number of fittings were not so set in stone. Bespoke was more common than it is now (with Savile Row being exclusive chiefly on account of higher charges), and the context regarding the number of fittings was at least partially about whether the tailor had got the garment right. If on the second fitting something serious were still amiss, then you would come in a third time. But having a third or fourth fitting meant that either one's body form was naturally awkward or the cutter, etc had messed things up.


----------



## Bonhamesque

[
*About the number of fittings from a London bespoke tailor:*

There was a time well not so long ago... 
...when matters regarding the number of fittings were not so set in stone. [/quote]

In my personal experience I don't know of any tailor that has a set number of fittings attached to any product (correct me if I'm wrong).
I know that the S Row tailors that I've used have simply adjusted the garment until it was perfect, irrespective of how long it took.

Even with a semi-bespoke suit the tailor told me that technically there is only one 'fitting' built into the price but they would often do more than one because it may save money to stop at the first fitting but it costs a whole lot more to let a client walk out of the door in a suit that he's not entirely happy with.
He'll never come back and he'll tell his friends about the bad experience etc.

With my bespoke suits I've sometimes had 4 or 5 fittings and I've known some people to have more.
So I don't really subscribe to this whole theory of 'You must go to S Row tailor 'X' and not S Row tailor 'Y' because with X you get 4 fittings and with Y you only get 3.

Any decent tailor should finish the job properly irrespective of the number of fittings and if you're buying a suit and you feel that the tailor is trying to reduce the number of fittings and get you to pay the balance a.s.a.p then throw the suit in the bin and get out of there pronto!
Or alternatively if you still don't think the suit fits then make them correct it!
But I don't think it's a question of A&S do 3 fittings and G&H do 4...etc.


----------



## medwards

While it has been some time since I have worked with a new tailor, I have never needed more than two fittings for the satisfactory completion of a garment. But neither have I experienced a Savile Row tailor who wouldn't make whatever alterations were needed to meet the customer's satisfaction.


----------



## Concordia

A basted fitting (or a somewhat unfinished forward fitting) is always a good idea for a new client/pattern. Once that goes well, the next fitting is likely to be finished completely (to be adjusted as necessary in a third) or fin bar fin-- that is, finished except for buttons, etc. Either way, if things have gone well, there's a pretty good chance that the next time you see the suit it will be done.

A&S's current rhythm with existing clients seems to be one forward fitting, and then popping it in the mail.


----------



## medwards

There have been a number of enquiries over the fate of the venteran *Norton & Sons*, which is now under new ownership. Elsewhere Panzeraxe has posted a link to a story about Patrick Grant, its new owner. That thread can be found here:


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by Concordia_
> A&S's current rhythm with existing clients seems to be one forward fitting, and then popping it in the mail.


I don't think that's terribly unusual for Savile Row firms these days for established clients whose details have not changed very much since their last suit.


----------



## Fabrizio

Forgive my ignorance, but what taxes should a US resident expect to pay on the final product, sent across through the mail? And is it different depending on the sender (someone said that A&S is taxed like crazy but others are not)?

Carmine


----------



## Concordia

In theory there is import duty owed on purchases made abroad and brought into the U.S. It's something like 15-20% of the value of the item.

In practice, some shops with gaudy addresses and conscientious couriers end up making you pay all of that. I do not wish to speculate about how the others handle their affairs.


----------



## bystander

One suspects that there is no definite answer to Fabrizio's inquiry. My own experience is that duties charged depend on the description on the parcel, the method used for sending the parcel, and the frequency of deliveries. 

Hence I would venture to suggest that if a parcel comes through the post office in plain packaging (that does not announce arrival of great merchandise from a well known store for the well heeled type) and a "non-descript" description such as "personal effects: clothes", and is the only one that week or whatever, duties would be very unlikely. 

Other more experienced forum members may have something definitive to say.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

While I would like to save a pound here and there, I would be remiss if I didn't remind the honourable participants on this Forum of Nelson's words when this issue was raised previously: _England expects that every man will do his duty. _

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## Fabrizio

Sounds like the answer is that such shipments are subject to import duty but sometimes things slip through the cracks b/c of sloppy enforcement. I wonder if the duty would be avoided if one waits until the next in-person visit to receive the garment?

Carmine


----------



## bespoke therapy

Duty is still due if you personally import it- ie bring it over after a visit. Anything over $800 (per person) is supposed to be declared, and duty is then imposed by customs....


----------



## Fabrizio

Ouch - yet another cost to be taken into account for true Savile Row experience.

Carmine


----------



## Smooth Jazz

You need a tax expert to answer this question! 

In all seriousness, most SR houses (and bespoke shoe makers) either put a very low declared value on the goods or label them as "Old garments being returned after alterations" so one can escape the duty or pay a very small amount of duty. A&S, typically puts the full value of the garments on the invoice -- which results in a fairly hefty customs bill -- the first ~$7-800 is free and then their is a 20% tax on the increment.



> quote:_Originally posted by Fabrizio_
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but what taxes should a US resident expect to pay on the final product, sent across through the mail? And is it different depending on the sender (someone said that A&S is taxed like crazy but others are not)?
> 
> Carmine


----------



## bystander

> quote:Fabrizio Posted - 03/04/2006 : 20:44:10
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ....what taxes should a US resident expect to pay on the final product, sent across through the mail? And is it different depending on the sender (someone said that A&S is taxed like crazy but others are not)?





> quote:Smooth Jazz Posted - 03/05/2006 : 16:49:22
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ....most SR houses (and bespoke shoe makers) either put a very low declared value on the goods or label them as "Old garments being returned after alterations" so one can escape the duty or pay a very small amount of duty. A&S, typically puts the full value of the garments on the invoice -- which results in a fairly hefty customs bill...


*Fabrizio*, you have an explanation!!


----------



## Andre Yew

To those who are still interested in the Tom Mahon 100 suits/year issue, I met with him last week for a suit, and he mentioned that he's just going to stop accepting new customers when his workload gets too high instead of limiting suit production.

--Andre


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## Fabrizio

Many thanks for the (as always) helpful advice. Perhaps to be safe I will consult a tax expert, although it can be very difficult to find a good one.

Carmine


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## Mr. Chatterbox

> quote:_Originally posted by Andre Yew_
> To those who are still interested in the Tom Mahon 100 suits/year issue, I met with him last week for a suit, and he mentioned that he's just going to stop accepting new customers when his workload gets too high instead of limiting suit production.--Andre


If -- as has been suggested -- his normal capacity rate is two suits per week, what's the difference?

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## medwards

Four suits

Seriously, I believe the difference is in approach and implication rather than the number of garments made. For a tailor to limit his workload to that which he can handle is just prudent -- and good -- business practice. While it is true that this might be some absolute number, it may also be somewhat flexible depending on certain circumstances -- the complexity of the articles ordered, other work demands, the availability of craftsmen, etc. To announce a limit of 100 with the idea that these suits would be individually numbered, sounded -- to some at least -- like a marketing ploy designed to increase interest and price.


----------



## bry2000

Honestly, Mahon does not have that big of a reputation that he will create demand just by limiting production. Who gives a crap if one has the garment numbered 007 or 098 made by Mahon in 2006? That is absolute nonsense and just that fact alone would steer me away. I don't like tailors who employ gimmicks. I had my fill of that in my miserable dealings with Darren Beaman.


----------



## Cantabrigian

A kindlier reading of Mahon's idea would be that the label numbers - which would never have gone above 100 - would indicate that production was limited specifically to ensure quality.

I do not know - my contact with Thomas has been very informal, though very positive - but it is another possibility.

At any rate, I don't think there is any comparison to be made between Thomas's formerly proposed limit and the experience you had with DB - in fact, the situations are exactly opposite.



> quote:_Originally posted by bry2000_
> 
> Honestly, Mahon does not have that big of a reputation that he will create demand just by limiting production. Who gives a crap if one has the garment numbered 007 or 098 made by Mahon in 2006? That is absolute nonsense and just that fact alone would steer me away. I don't like tailors who employ gimmicks. I had my fill of that in my miserable dealings with Darren Beaman.


----------



## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> Seriously, I believe the difference is in approach and implication rather than the number of garments made. For a tailor to limit his workload to that which he can handle is just prudent -- and good -- business practice.


And that's pretty much where Thomas has come out on this one. If his workload gets a little too intense at some point in the year, he will throttle back starting by not accepting new clients for a while. One of his recent problems is that there are a number of new-ish clients who, having taken delivery of one good suit, are now back in with very large repeat orders. It's tough to absorb that when you are a one-man shop.

I didn't discuss Thomas's relationship with his web/PR guy, but at no point did some of his more fanciful ideas come into the conversation.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

To some degree, this should be self-regulating. To a very large extent, the amount of work that a tailor such as Mr. Mahon receives is a direct result of his own efforts in courting customers. If he has more orders than he can handle, one of three things happens: 1. He falls terribly behind in his production and these delays reduce the willingness of present and future customers from placing orders. 2) The quality of his work deteriorates as he rushes to meet unrealistic timelines for the quantity of work ordered...again reducing the willingness of present and future customers to bring him their trade. Or 3. He hires additional qualified staff to meet this demand.

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## bystander

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Chatterbox_
> 
> To some degree, this should be self-regulating. To a very large extent, the amount of work that a tailor such as Mr. Mahon receives is a direct result of his own efforts in courting customers. If he has more orders than he can handle, one of three things happens: 1. He falls terribly behind in his production and these delays reduce the willingness of present and future customers from placing orders. 2) The quality of his work deteriorates as he rushes to meet unrealistic timelines for the quantity of work ordered...again reducing the willingness of present and future customers to bring him their trade. Or 3. He hires additional qualified staff to meet this demand.
> 
> Mr. Chatterbox
> London Daily Excess


Good point. But surely Mr Chatterbox its the "fourth alternative", i.e., he produces limited editions numbered like the lithograph prints, thats under discussion!!


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

And speaking of Mr. Mahon, which of you gents has been making life difficult for Mssrs. Hitchcock and Mahon? [}]

_...many thanks to my friend Steven Hitchcock [a very talented, young Savile Row tailor], who kindly warned me about a rather odd individual, an American customer, who's been making life harder than it should be for us tailors. I know customers watch us tailors, and talk about both us and our work with each other. Luckily, we tailors do the same with our customers._

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## medwards

The link to Timothy Everest's website has now been updated.


----------



## medwards

Today's _*Times*_ on the future of Savile Row:


----------



## Andre Yew

The Times article is worth reading just for seeing Tom Mahon use the word "crappy".  Speaking of which, from recent articles quoting him, he seems to have become the de facto voice of Savile Row.

--Andre


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## manicturncoat

The articles states that."Around 7,000 suits are produced annually on Savile Row, representing a Â£21 million turnover" I am assuming that they are referring to bespoke suits but it stills seems a bit low.


----------



## Concordia

> quote:_Originally posted by manicturncoat_
> 
> The articles states that."Around 7,000 suits are produced annually on Savile Row, representing a Â£21 million turnover" I am assuming that they are referring to bespoke suits but it stills seems a bit low.


That's 140/week, which implies full-time employment of around 140 tailors doing nothing but bespoke. Not beyond what is reasonable.


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## manicturncoat

7000/19 equals an average 368 bespoke suits per house per year, I just thought it would be more.


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## erasmus

Here's a link to the Westminster City Council press release:


Good to hear about these efforts. I think a public-private partnership between industry and government makes a lot of sense and may be the only effective way to preserve the Row.

"Ease and grace in everything" - Gracian


----------



## encooper

"Exploiting the Savile Row name to attract high paying retailers and businesses at the cost of this world-esteemed industry is short sighted." 

It is great to hear that the time may come that the Jil Sanders of the World will stop pushing out legitimate tailors on the Row.


----------



## sleeper

I don't think you can really say that Jill Sander was pushing tailors out of the Row - after all, they set up in a former bank building, that, to my mind, would always be too grand for a tailor's showroom. What's interesting is that it seems that Jill Sander were unable to make money in that location, despite the Savile Row address. So it may be that it's not that easy to borrow the allure of Savile Row, and use it to push your brand upmarket.


----------



## jklu

Jil Sander had bigger issues than that. It was a flopping label after being taken over by Prada and instability at the designer's position. But the clothing is/was rather well-made, not too trendy, and had considerable cachet. More jarring are the streetwear companies like Evisu and Oki-ni. And yet, for the market they target, and considering the decidedly non-SR style clothing they offer, it is hard to see how the name benefits them much.


----------



## medwards

While RJman is on sabbatical, he nonetheless continues to provide help and guidance to this Forum. The following link -- compliments of L'hommeRJ -- is another annotated listing of Savile Row tailors, including some very interesting biographical information about the men themselves.

The firms included are *Adeney & Boutroy*, *Anderson & Sheppard*, *Benson & Clegg*, *Airey & Wheeler*, *Richard Anderson*, *Davies & Son*, *Dege & Skinner*, *Anthony Hewitt*, *John Kent*, *Maurice Sedwell*, *L.G. Wilkinson*, *Fallan & Harvey*, *Huntsman*, *Henry Poole*, and *Tobias*.

The interviews are with Richard Anderson, Ken Austin, Alan Bennett, Angus Cudney, Simon Cudney, John Davis, Peter Harvey, Brian Lishak, Andrew Ramroop, Michael Skinner, William Skinner, and Ravi Tailor


----------



## Andy

Well it took a while, but this information is now a new Tutorial article. Linked from the home page!



Thank you medwards!



Andy


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## medwards

Thank you, Andy, and the other members of the Forum who have added greatly to this thread. I am glad it is of some help to those interested in Savile Row tailoring. [:I]


----------



## medwards

It has been suggested that some additional on-line resources about Savile Row tailors be included in this thread. Here are just a few that would seem to be directly on topic:

*ARTICLES*

*Savile Row Style Magazine* with a featured section on Savile Row tailors including _Adeney & Boutroy_, _Airey & Wheeler_, _Anderson & Sheppard_, _Benson & Clegg_, _Dege & Skinner_, _Henry Poole_, _Huntsman_, _Tobias_, _Anthony Hewitt_, _Fallan & Harvey_, _Davies and Son_, _Maurice Sedwell_, _Wilkinson_, and _Richard Anderson _ -- https://www.savilerow-style.com/

G. Bruce Boyer in *Cigar Aficionado Magazine* on Savile Row style -- ten year old article but still relevant with bits on _Anderson & Sheppard_, _Benson & Clegg_, _Dege & Skinner_, _Gieves & Hawkes_, _Douglas Hayward_, _Huntsman_, _Kilgour_, and _Henry Poole _ --https://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,626,00.html

*Bown's Bespoke* on buying bespoke tailoring; icludes information and experiences with _Davies & Son_, _Dege and Skinner_, _Henry Poole_, _Johns & Pegg_, _Maurice Sedwell_, and _James & James _ -- https://www.bownsbespoke.com/

*Elegant-Lifestyle.com* on Savile Row's "best" tailors with listings for _Anderson & Sheppard_, _Chester Barrie_, _Dege & Skinner_, _Ede & Ravenscroft_, _Gieves & Hawkes_, _Hardy Amies_, _Henry Poole_, _Richard James_, _Huntsman_, _Kilgour_, _Maurice Sedwell_, _Ozwald Boateng_, and _Norton_ --

*Departures.com* on the "new" Savile Row highlighting _Richard James_, _Timothy Everest_, _Mark Powell _ and _John Pearse_ --

*Business Week* on the future of Savile Row and the impact of the "new breed" of tailors with some discussion of _Richard James_, _Ozwald Boateng_, _Kilgour_, _Gieves and Hawke_, and _Henry Poole _ -- https://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_15/b3825629.htm

*Wikipedia* on Savile Row -- actually a rather brief entry, but with links to a dozen Savile Row tailor sites -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savile_Row

*The Man About Town*: Who's Your Tailor? with some discussion of _Ozwald Boateng_, _Anderson & Sheppard _ and _John Kent_--

A nice *BBC* feature on _Maurice Sedwell_'s Andrew Ramroop -- https://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/workplace_success.stm

An interesting Russian newspaper profile of Dege: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=59585

*BLOGS*

However self-interested, the blogs of Savile Row tailor provide some insights into Savile Row, the business and craft of bespoke tailoring, and current events and happenings.

*Thomas Mahon*-- https://www.englishcut.com/
*
Darren Beaman* -- https://darrenbeaman.blogspot.com/
*
Steven Hitchcock* --

note: edited for format (24 March 2006)


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

Here's the Robb Report on Kilgour from a short time back. I'm afraid this once venerable house is a bit boutiquiesque these days...but times do change 



Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

Of course, Savile Row may not be everyone's cup of tea. Here's a letter to the _Times_ this morning which reminds us that we each have our own sense of propriety [}]:

_Snipped out

Sir, You report sympathetically on the fight to save the tailoring workshops of Savile Row (Mar 20). But have you any sympathy that, 125 years ago, this club felt it had to move out of Savile Row because of the invasion of tailoring workshops? After all, we then had members such as Robert Louis Stevenson. How could he have been expected to rub shoulders with neighbours who inflicted things like the word â€œbespokeâ€ on the English language?

OSMAN STREATER
Savile Club
London W1_

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## morgan

Osman Streater is a former Advertising Creative Director of McCann-Erickson, London. He is a fine one to talk about inflicting things on people. 

[Also on SR protest thread]

'Uncle Edouard said a gentleman's shoes should never carry too much shine.'


----------



## bystander

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> Bystander:
> 
> Here some threads about *Richard Anderson* that might be of interest:
> 
> This thread begins with a discussion of Huntsman and Richard Anderson before Darren Beaman takes it a bit off topic:
> 
> This is a short thread on Richard Anderson's custom clothing:
> 
> And an excerpt from the wonderful Savile Row Style discussion of January 2005 in which Scott discusses his experiences with Huntsman, Richard Anderson and others:
> 
> I should emphasize that this lattermost thread is of much broader interest than just Scott's discussion of his experience with Richard Anderson _et al_. This is the thread in which manton lays out his assessment of Savile Row style, SR's history -- in terms of its is sartorial approach -- is explored, individuals share some of their experiences with various firms, and Film Noir Buff joins the Forum with a rather forceful argument against SR which earns him his first time-out. The entire discussion is well worth reading for those interested in British tailoring...and in the evolution of this Forum.


Thank you medwards

Of the above posts, somehow I manage to stumble upon Scott's, and found them truly amazing in his attention to detail, in the depth of feeling, and in the precision of language used.

At times Scott's search for the tailor, quest would be a more appropriate description, takes on the flavour of an epic (if there can be such a thing in a relatively humdrum matter such as a suit), no less than a sartorial odyssey. Deserving of treatment accorded to a piece of good prose, I decided to print the posts and had them bound.

*Richard Anderson Custom suits:*
I phoned Chester Barrie in Savile Row a couple of days back, and asked about MTM. The reply was that we are not taking fresh orders for the next threemonths because the factory is too busy with work! It did not seem polite to ask whether the facotry was busy or shut. The pertinent question for me is how the closure of that factory affects the Hunstman RTW and Richard Anderson Custom. Any information would be helpful.

*Richard Anderson Custom/Kilgour entry level bespoke.*:
I would be keen to have a comparison of the above two. (In my recollection when bespoke was far more common (mid and late nineteen-sixties), the difference between bespoke and good MTM was not that much in terms of price and fit.)


----------



## bystander

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Chatterbox_
> 
> Of course, Savile Row may not be everyone's cup of tea. Here's a letter to the _Times_ this morning which reminds us that we each have our own sense of propriety [}]:
> 
> _Snipped out
> 
> Sir, You report sympathetically on the fight to save the tailoring workshops of Savile Row (Mar 20). But have you any sympathy that, 125 years ago, this club felt it had to move out of Savile Row because of the invasion of tailoring workshops? After all, we then had members such as Robert Louis Stevenson. How could he have been expected to rub shoulders with neighbours who inflicted things like the word â€œbespokeâ€ on the English language?
> 
> OSMAN STREATER
> Savile Club
> London W1_
> 
> Mr. Chatterbox
> London Daily Excess


I think Mr Streater has a point, two in fact: Savile Row no doubt was a nicer street accustomed to "mind lifting" conversation before the "tailor" folk took it over, and "bespoke" does have the sound of low level slang; a poor substitute indeed for the words to the effect that a piece of cloth has been spoken for.


----------



## medwards

By the way, the entire City of Westminster 82-page report_ Bespoke Tailoring in London's West End_ is now available online and in electronic form:

It provides a fascinating profile of Savile Row, including a wealth of statistics on the Row's financial, labour, and operational dynamics; a remarkable survey on issues of concern to Savile Row tailors; inside glipses into a number of firms; some wonderful photographs and maps; and case studies on *Henry Poole*, *Hardy Amies*, *Gieves and Hawkes*, and *Franco Santoro*.

Some general items that might be of particular interest include:

The report identified some 116 tailoring businesses in Westminster (note that this transcends the area we know as Savile Row). Forty-two percent of these responded to a questionaire on which the City Planning Group's findings were based. These 49 respondents include such Savile Row stalwarts as *Anderson & Sheppard*, *Chittleborough & Morgan*, *Davies & Son*, *Dege & Skinner*, *Gieves & Hawkes*, *H. Huntsman & Sons*, *Henry Poole*, *Kilgour*, *L.G. Wilkinson*, *Manning & Manning*, *Maurice Sedwell*, *Steed*, and *Welsh & Jefferies * (a complete listing can be found in Appendix 2).

Most of these firms have been in the vicinity -- if not their present address -- for a very long time. Indeed, almost half have been at their current premises for 20 years or more. They employ some 324 people directly on their premises, sixty-three percent of whom are tailors or cutters. Another 77 individuals are directly employed by these tailors, but are located elsewhere. Four out of five of these enterprises employ fewer than 10 people...with the largest firms located on Savile Row itself. Most have an economic link to another enterprise located within the environs of the Row or Soho.

It is estimated that Savile Row produces between 6,000 and 7,000 suits a year, representing 21 million British pounds in sales.

The tailors identified numerous issues confronting the bespoke garment industry generally and Savile Row in particular. These include expensive rent and rate costs, a lack of young tailors entering the profession, the intrinsic link between producing and selling a bespoke garment, the need to cluster tailors and supporting services and industries together, tailoring needs to be protected as a key historical and cultural part of London, and non-bespoke tailors are changing the face of Savile Row.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

Savile Row is not a street nor an area nor a collection of tailors...it is a concept, a symbol, a statement. As Kilgour's creative director Carlo Brandelli told _The Telegraph_: "I can't think of another street that has almost become a brand in itself."

Now as for the idea that a bespoke tailoring firm has a "creative director," well...that's something else again! [}]

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## encooper

Thanks for the "Report" medwards. (However, I wish that there were more case studies.) 

I assume that Poole's 40% American, 30% European, 20% English spread is typical for the true bespoke firms.


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## Bonhamesque

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Chatterbox_
> 
> Savile Row is not a street nor an area nor a collection of tailors...it is a concept, a symbol, a statement. As Kilgour's creative director Carlo Brandelli told _The Telegraph_: "I can't think of another street that has almost become a brand in itself."
> 
> Now as for the idea that a bespoke tailoring firm has a "creative director," well...that's something else again! [}]
> 
> Mr. Chatterbox
> London Daily Excess


What about Harley Street Carlo, or even Jermyn Street? 
Not thinking very hard is he??
Especially when you consider how close Jermyn Street is!

And he calls himself a 'creative director'? He couldn't create faeces without holding a meeting first.


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## bystander

For those who may be interested, there is an article on Savile Row tailors, in the weekend section of the Financial Times newspaper of April 1 (i.e., this morning): *Bespoke bites back*; and there is also another article in the weekend section of the March 11th issue of the same newspaper, which discusses how the tailoring houses are adpating to changing times.


----------



## RSS

I've been away from Ask Andy for a while -- and given that the search function seems not to work ... and it's quite possible I've missed something in the eight pages or so associated herewith (fantastic series of posts! ... thanks medwards for starting all this) -- I hope my comments aren't too redundant of others. 
I stopped in at Anderson & Sheppard on Monday of this week. This was my first visit to their new quarters and it was quite a surprise.

While a few decorative accessories from the old Savile Row shop have been incorporated into the new ... the 32 Old Burlington Street interior could hardly be more different from what I remember of *Number 30*.

The new shop is fresh, elegant and rather plush ... even a bit dark on the interior (of course, I'm older so maybe it's my eyes). Its size is perhaps half that of the former.

The old interior was rather worn ... and the flank of windows along Savile Row made certain the wear was obvious. As I think I noted once before ... it reminded me of a county/parish clerk's office in an old Southern courthouse ... bolts of cloths piled high and looking like the enormous ledger books once used to record court actions and property sales.

Now don't get me wrong ... I liked the old place very much ... it was as if time had stopped at A&S. It was forever familiar ... and that gave me comfort. I recall a friend putting it this way, "Which came first, Einstein's _Theory of Relativity_ or Anderson & Sheppard's interior? Both prove the same thing." And I must admit ... more than once when visiting, I checked my watch ... just to be certain that the second hand was still ticking.

But I admit ... I also like the new ... where change is obviously afoot. And while the change is perhaps most obvious in the architecture & interior design ... it seems to me that it is pervasive throughout the functioning and attitudes of the firm.

Although I haven't (well, prior to Monday I hadn't) commissioned an A&S piece since 96 ... I had stopped by the former premises several times. But I admit that before this visit, I hadn't lately had much of an opportunity to talk with staff. This leaves me wondering if the "change" began before the move ... was concurrent with it ... or evolved afterward. Of course, it might even be a bit of all three.

I know A&S was (were if you prefer) forced to vacate their former quarters ... but I'm seeing the move as somewhat symbolic of a greater change. Of course I look for symbolism in everything.

In any event, it was this week's conversation with Karl Matthews and John Hitchcock which has me aware of just how different the atmosphere at A&S is today ... especially when compared to what I remember from my days of being a customer (beginning in the late 70s and continuing until the mid 90s).

What surprised me most is an apparent willingness to work with the customer regarding style and cut: 

More slant to the pockets? Not a problem.
Bright lining? Certainly! May I suggest this one in a buttery yellow.
 And if that weren't enough ... Mr. Hitchcock went so far as to suggest a few changes: 
I notice you're wearing a one-button closure. Would you like this one made up that way?
 Of course you want functional buttons at the cuff? (In former days I practically had to beg to be accommodated on this one!
In the old days Anderson & Sheppard was a bit more "Take it or leave it" when it came to the house style. I recall certain requests being rebuffed (Oh, you don't want to do that.) on more than one occasion ... and I wasn't exactly asking for anything off-beat.

Anyway ... attitudes -- in addition to location and interior decorating -- at Anderson & Sheppard seem to have changed. Of course given my choice of cloth -- a tweed in heather-gray with a medium brown windowpane -- I haven't changed all that much.

Change or no change on my part ... I'm looking forward to comparing this jacket with similar tweeds made up one-button by Huntsman & Richard Anderson.

In closing I'll say that this was my first time to see John Hitchcock smile ... I mean a real grin. Before I left he was actually laughing as we chatted with and teased Karl about his helping customers choose rather bold linings. It was all very refreshing.

I might add that John looked every bit as stylish as Norman Halsey ever did! And Karl wasn't exactly shabby ... I rather thought he oozed style. It should not be assumed that my return to A&S means I have given up on Richard Anderson! I give Richard and Brian -- especially Brian -- credit for helping me develop a true confidence of personal style.

I had hoped to visit them this trip ... but on my way over after stopping in at A&S, I received a call from my office informing me I'd been placed on an earlier flight. It was a mad dash to the house and then for the Heathrow Express.


----------



## erasmus

> quote:_Originally posted by bystander_
> 
> For those who may be interested, there is an article on Savile Row tailors, in the weekend section of the Financial Times newspaper of April 1 (i.e., this morning): *Bespoke bites back*; and there is also another article in the weekend section of the March 11th issue of the same newspaper, which discusses how the tailoring houses are adpating to changing times.


The FT article estimates that there are approx. 10,000 customers of Savile Row (globally I presume). That's fairly exclusive company if one is a customer.

"Ease and grace in everything" - Gracian


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> I've been away from Ask Andy for a while --


And we are very glad to see you return. Welcme home!


----------



## RSS

Thanks medwards for the welcome back. And thank you, bystander, for a very nice compliment. And thanks to everyone for all the tailoring related internet addresses.

This website is simply too informative and enjoyable to allow work to get in the way again. I've learned my lesson. Not even the perfect project in combination with the near perfect client is worth taking on if the schedule doesn't permit it. 

A day without Savile Row is ... well ... no fun at all.


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## dopey

Scott:
For what it is worth, your posts are what first hooked me on this site. Since I don't know when you will next appear - thanks.


----------



## Concordia

Scott:

Welcome back. I've always enjoyed your posts. And if you haven't yet, do consider asking John Hitchcock to cut you a DB suit. I know from your photos that you like those, and he does them very well indeed.


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by bystander_
> 
> For those who may be interested, there is an article on Savile Row tailors, in the weekend section of the Financial Times newspaper of April 1 (i.e., this morning): *Bespoke bites back*;


This is a link to the article bystander referenced:


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> Scott:For what it is worth, your posts are what first hooked me on this site. Since I don't know when you will next appear - thanks.


For those not familar with Scott, he has provided some exceptionally insightful and helpful postings, particularly in terms of Savile Row style and tailors. Here's a link to a past discussion of _Savile Row Style_ from January of 2005 that should give you a sense of his contributions.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

> quote:_Originally posted by Scott_
> Anyway ... attitudes -- in addition to location and interior decorating -- at Anderson & Sheppard seem to have changed. Of course given my choice of cloth -- a tweed in heather-gray with a medium brown windowpane -- I haven't changed all that much.


It is nice to see that some things change...and some do not.

The article referenced by bystander and medwards above really underscores the abdsolutel necessity of Anderson & Sheppard's new attitude. While I believe it essential that we hold on to the roots, tradition and hallmarks of what has made Savile Row _Savile Row_, the failure to adjust to today's increasingly competitive marketplace is just folly. Nick Hart has it right (at least in the article [}])...let us hope Anderson & Sheppard do as well.

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## bystander

> quote:_Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> Thanks medwards for the welcome back. And thank you, bystander, for a very nice compliment. And thanks to everyone for all the tailoring related internet addresses.
> 
> This website is simply too informative and enjoyable to allow work to get in the way again. I've learned my lesson. Not even the perfect project in combination with the near perfect client is worth taking on if the schedule doesn't permit it.
> 
> A day without Savile Row is ... well ... no fun at all.


Scott, you are very welcome.


----------



## RSS

dopey writes ...


> quote:I don't know when you will next appear ...


Dopey,

I'm hoping to be a regular again. But ... I may have to regulate more carefully the frequency of my appearances.

And ... I thank you for compliment.


----------



## medwards

A quick update on *Norton & Sons*, compliments of the always helpful RJman. Now under new ownership, this venerable firm now has an updated website and a new head cutter in the highly regarded John Kent.


----------



## Ali Kebab

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> A quick update on Norton & Son, compliments of the always helpful RJman. Now under new ownership, this venerable firm now has an updated website and a new head cutter in the highly regarded John Kent.


I believe they have a shirtmaker as well. Is he any good? How does he compare to the New York custom makers such as Paris or Geneva?


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> A quick update on Norton & Son, compliments of the always helpful RJman. Now under new ownership, this venerable firm now has an updated website and a new head cutter in the highly regarded John Kent.


In another thread, Leonard Logsdale kindly added the following. I am including it here as well to help give a fuller picture of the new situation at *Norton*:

_Nicholas Granger, the last owner of Nortons, introduced me to the new owner when I was vsiting London last December. A nice chap, to be sure, and a business man. I'm of the impression that there is scarce enough income for a tailor' shop when eveyone is producing garments. with a boss trying to market a brand, but not producing (at least for a time) my experience is that money and time run very thin.

Nicholas told me that under the arrangement he made he will be keeping the Savile Row Field Sports collection. I undersand that Nortons will be re-commencing their trips to the states, but not with John Kent, but another cutter. John Granger, who lives over here is no longer associated with the business either. In other words, while they intend to carry on business as usual, there will be no continuity!! Very tough._


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## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by Ali Kebab_I believe they have a shirtmaker as well. Is he any good? How does he compare to the New York custom makers such as Paris or Geneva?


I'm afraid I do not know about *Norton & Sons'* current shirtmaking services, but RJman reminds me that the well-regarded *Stephen Lachter * shares the premises. Moreover, your question opens a line of enquiry that seems very relevant to this thread. In terms of Savile Row tailors who offer shirtmaking services, I can offer the following. *Dege & Skinner* makes bespoke shirts under the watchful eye of Robert Whittaker, whom I have known since his days as an apprentice with *Bowring Arundel*. He once again is my shirtmaker. *Kilgour* makes bespoke shirts under its *Washington Tremlett* operation. Others who craft bespoke shirts include *Richard Anderson*, *Tom Brown*, *Steven Hitchcock*, *Denman & Goddard*, and *Huntsman*. *Tom Brown* also offers made-to-measure as does *Benson & Clegg*. *Fallan & Harvey* has offered *Woods & Brown's * services though I am not sure the current status of this shirtmaker inasmuch as Tony Brown is now retired (I believe). However F&H still carries the Woods & Brown company name on its letterhead. *Thomas Mahon * has recently entered into a bespoke shirtmaking arrangement with *Rayner & Sturges*. *John DeBoise* travels with *Hilditch & Key * and *John Lester* travels with *Harvie & Hudson.* And *Anderson & Sheppard* used to recommend Budd. I am sure others will have additional information and experiences to add.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

There was a time when Poole, Davies, Gieves, Hewitt, Sedwell, and Tobias would make shirts. Not sure if this is still the case for any or all. But it is not much of a stroll over to Jermyn Street. 

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## medwards

*Anthony J Hewitt* Ltd now owns *Airey and Wheeler* and offers a made-to-measure shirt service. I believe from his past postings AAAC participant bry2000 frequents *Poole* and has had shirts made there as well.


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## bry2000

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> *Anthony J Hewitt* Ltd now owns *Airey and Wheeler* and offers a made-to-measure shirt service. I believe from his past postings AAAC participant bry2000 frequents *Poole* and has had shirts made there as well.


Medwards, 
yes, I had a shirt made by Poole several years ago during one of their US visits. This was well before AAAC existed and when I knew even less about clothing than I do now. Let's just say that you should go to a shirtmaker for shirts and to a tailor for suits. I think Poole makes really good suits....if you get my drift.

Sedwell offers custom shirts as well. I believe Sedwell's shirts are made by John Brian, who also makes shirts for Chittleborough & Morgan.


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## Umer

Sean O'Flynn, formerly of New & Lingwood, now shares the premises with Fallan & Harvey.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

> quote:_Originally posted by Umer_
> 
> Sean O'Flynn, formerly of New & Lingwood, now shares the premises with Fallan & Harvey.


Is he now on his own, with another shirtmaker or incorporated into F&H?

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## Umer

On his own.


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## medwards

This thread initially highlighted Savile Row tailor's websites, but has certainly become far more inclusive. One aspect of that has been the inclusion of the blogs for at least three tailors. This recent article by *Thomas Mahon* in the _Guardian_ is an interesting discussion of how Mr. Mahon's blog has become an integral and effective part of his busines practices and the general relevance of such a blog for a Savile Row tailor:

https://media.guardian.co.uk/newmedia/story/0,,1735157,00.html


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## medwards

The *Johns & Pegg* link on page 1 of this thread has been updated. I believe the links in initial posting on this topic are now all functioning again.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

And what can you tell us about Mssrs. J & P?

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## medwards

*Johns & Pegg* -- whose roots go back some 150 years -- has long been a military tailor of some note...though it has certainly been supplying the civilian gentlemen with well crafted garments for a very long time. The approach has been what one might expect: traditional, classic, military-inspired lines, made to last. The firm has now been incorporated into *Davies & Son* and I honestly don't know how much remains except the name and a customer list...but it is worth noting that the legendary Frederick Scholte was a cutter here. Here's a link to the bownsbespoke website with an article on Mr. Bown's experience with this venerable old firm. Perhaps current customers will have something more to add: https://www.bownsbespoke.com/johnsandpegg.htm


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## Morris

I am reading Richard Walker's "Savile Row". It provides a fascinating history of The Row and its denizens, past and present (up to 1989). The chapter on Beau and his influence on tailors was a treat.



I understand Poole has a similar history of SR through its eyes. Is it worth a read?

-- Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.


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## Son of Beau Brummell

The Henry Poole book is excellent.

Its focus is different from the Walker book in that the Poole book concentrates on the fortunes of and follies of one Savile Row tailor and its family. I recommend it to the Savile Row devotee.

I cannot comment on how many of the Johns & Pegg personnel remain at Davies & Son. My guess is that the old hands who wanted to keep working have been retained since experienced talent is a rare commodity in tailoring. Of course, I assume that the merged firm has enough work for the Johns & Pegg people.

Alan Bennett, the owner of Davies, related to me that the purpose of mergers is to allow some cost savings and sharing. E.g., Mr. Bennett visits NYC four times a year, and his regular trips allows an older tailor to ease-up on the trips. A merger also allows a selling tailor to go into semi-retirement rather than full retirement.

Cheers.

Mark Seitelman
www.seitelman.com


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## medwards

Here's *Gieves & Hawkes' * chief executive Mark Henderson on the Savile Row, G&H, and bespoke tailoring. It's from today's _London Telegraph_:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/05/02/ccprof02.xml


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## Mr. Chatterbox

Putting the previous two or three postings together, I'm a tad surprised that Gieves hasn't been accumulating some of these venerable old names as their proprietors retire.

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## medwards

*Gieves and Hawkes* is itself a rather recent amalgamation. While its roots are very old, it wasn't until 1974 or so that Gieves acquired Hawkes (and its present premises along with it).


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## medwards

I've recently received a good number of enquiries about which Savile Row tailors travel to the United States. I've put together the following list, but please note that this is just my compilation. Keep in mind that tailors often change the cities they visit and the frequency of such trips for a broad array of reasons. Should you be interested in such a visiting service, I would recommend that you check with the tailoring firm itself about its upcoming travel dates and plans. With that caveat, here's my unofficial listing. I'm sure others will have much to add:

*Anderson & Sheppard*: Washington, Boston, New York

*Richard Anderson*: Washington, Boston, New York, Houston, Beverly Hills, San Francisco, Chicago, Palm Beach

*Benson & Clegg*: New York

*Darren Beaman*: New York, Washington

*Davies & Son*: Washington, New York, Boston, Baltimore

*Dege-Skinner*: Washington, New York, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago, Atlanta, Palm Beach, Philadelphia, Wilmington (Delaware), Middleburg (Virginia), Hunt Valley (Maryland)

*Timothy Everest*: New York

*Gieves & Hawkes*: Washington, New York, Chicago, Beverly Hills, Boston

*Stephen Hitchcock*: New York

*H. Huntsman*: Washington, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Palm Beach, Boston

*James & James* (incorporated into Davies & Son): Washington, New York, Boston, Baltimore

*Johns & Pegg* (incorporated into Davies & Son): : Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Washington

*Kilgour*: Washington, New York, Houston, Palm Beach, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago

*Thomas Mahon*: Chicago, San Francisco, Atlanta, New York [I believe Mr Mahon will end his US visits in 2010]

*Norton & Sons*: Washington, New York, Boston

*Henry Poole*: Washington, New York, Palm Beach, Boston, Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles, Monterey, San Francisco, Atlanta, New Orleans, Chicago

*Mark Powell*: New York

*Maurice Sedwell*: Washington Chicago, New York

*Steed*: New York Boston, Chicago

*Wells * (incorporated into Davies & Son): Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Washington

Ravi Tailor of *Anthony J Hewitt*: New York

edited 5-21-06 to add Anthony Hewitt


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## Concordia

Welsh & Jefferies comes to New York.


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## medwards

Oh yes, and my own tailor, *Fallan & Harvey*, visits Washington, New York, San Francisco, Chicago, and Dearborn.


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## Literide

Meyer & Mortimer come to NY, though I have no idea the rest of their itinerary. They are highly regarded among the Scottish aristos and officers. Somewhat more reasonable in price than the "big names". Don't know if this is purely a function of their Sackville st address or other factors. They definitly dont spend money on web sites or ads, dont even use email, just faxes. They are making something for me now, I will report back when done.


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## cbaer

In response to Mr. Edwards earlier post. I recently spoke with both Anderson & Sheppard and John Lobb. Both estimate that they will be traveling to Chicago in Mid-October. I believe A&S is at the Inter-Continental, and Lobb will be at the Drake.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

And do any of the American tailors oft discussed on this Forum travel to the UK? 
Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


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## medwards

While I do know some who have British clients (including one who travels to London to tend to them), I do not believe any make the kind of visits that Savile Row tailors make to the United States. Perhaps Leonard would have some additional thoughts or information?


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## 16412

William Westmancott - By Appointment only 9-10 Savile Row London W1



Anyone been here before? Not sure anybody has written anything here before about them.


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## bystander

medwards said:


> *Gieves and Hawkes* is itself a rather recent amalgamation. While its roots are very old, it wasn't until 1974 or so that Gieves acquired Hawkes (and its present premises along with it).


medwards, I seem to recall a "Gieves and Hawkes, 1 Savile Row" label on a colleague's suit jacket in London in 1969. However, it may well be that my memory could be playing tricks on me!! You might wish to double check!


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## medwards

Thank you, Bystander. Here's what Richard Walker writes in _Savile Row: An Illustrated History_ (Rizzoli, NY, 1988):

_"...so it was in some desperation that, in 1974, Gieves bought Hawkes, who also had been relying less on bespoke tailoring. The attraction was the best address in Savile Row -- No. 1. Gieves refurbished it as a palace of superior clothing, as grand and elegant as most of Savile Row was small and dingy, and in that way sought to compensate for any loss of status occasioned by its retreat to general outfitting."_


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## medwards

Of course, it is a bit difficult from the *Gieves & Hawkes* website to tell that the two companies were _ever_ separate.  By the way, the 1974 date is echoed in Stephen Howarth's _Henry Poole: Founders of Savile Row_ (Bene Factum Publishing, London, 2003) where -- in reference to some of Poole's expansions -- he notes: "_As separate companies, Gieves and Hawkes had already joined forces in 1974 to become Gieves & Hawkes..."_


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## medwards

RJman said:


> Denman & Goddard www.denman-goddard.co.uk -- proud of their "house tie" as used by Harry Pendel -- l'homme-RJ


And for those interested in the D&G "house tie," this little snippet friom *Steven Hitchcock* may be of interest:


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## Mr. Chatterbox

medwards said:


> Of course, it is a bit difficult from the Gieves & Hawkes website to tell that the two companies were _ever_ separate.


It is certainly in Gieves & Hawkes' -- and other Savile Row firms -- interest to maintain a sense of deep history and longevity. It is part of the mystique that separates Savile Row tailors from their competitors...every bit as much as their style and craftsmanship. One can find tailors all over the world who can sew marvellous garments of exceptional quality...and who can in fact replicate the range of Savile Row silhouettes. What often sets a SR tailoring firm apart is its heritage. Whether that should be of any concern or value is another matter.


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## medwards

*Advice from Gieves & Hawkes*

Speaking of *Gieves & Hawkes*, the G&H website hosts an interesting section called _Ask Mr. Gieve: Sage Sartorial Advice for the Modern Gentleman_. It contains G&H's advice on fit, colour, pattern, dress wear, The Season, and "Tips that Gieves Taught Jeeves" about clothes care.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

And Kilgour on a gentleman's wardrobe:


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## medwards

*Savile Row & the Internet*

This discussion began in order to provide some online resources for those interested in Savile Row tailors. The Internet is clearly changing the way we obtain information and how we do business. This week, the BBC ran an half-hour radio program on the "new" internet. Among those participating was Savile Row tailor *Thomas Mahon*, who discusses how his blog has not only extended his -- and Savile Row's -- reach but also how it has changed his relationship with customers. The program, hosted by Peter Day, can currently be heard online. Mr. Mahon's interview begins about 22 minutes into the broadcast and runs for about five minutes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/inbusiness/inbusiness.shtml


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## RJman

Henry Rose, formerly of Rose and Kent (like another Master Tailor we know!) and currently with Stella McCartney, now has a web site www.henryrose.co.uk and an establishment on Bruton St.


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## medwards

RJman said:


> Henry Rose, formerly of Rose and Kent (like another Master Tailor we know!) and currently with Stella McCartney, now has a web site www.henryrose.co.uk and an establishment on Bruton St.


The "establishment" is presumably Stella McCartney's flagship store at 30 Bruton Street, with whom -- as RJman notes -- Rose has worked for several years now.

Henry Rose certainly has traveled the Row and its neighbouring environs, working for Kilgour, French & Stanbury to Chapmans, Welsh & Jeffries, Peter Moore, Nutters, Haywards, the Helmans, Edward Sexton, Lew Fuirst, Bobby Valentine, Robbie Stanford, Doug Hayward and Dunhill.


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## RJman

Anthony J Hewitt's website is now updated, and the link we have for him may need updating -- 

Not much mention of the cohabitation with Evisu.


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## medwards

I've updated the link. Thank you.


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## medwards

*Davies & Son Updated Site*

In another thread, Andrey wrote



AndreyB said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> Perhaps this is an old news, but still here it is: I noticed that the web-site of Savile Row tailoring company Davies & Son is updated. Now they have a web-shop with selection of shoes (surprisingly, from Loakes), ties, other accessories.
> 
> Andrey


Thank you, Andrey. I've taken the liberty of including your post on this thread as well. While the link remains the same, the site has indeed been updated.


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## Artisan Fan

> I am reading Richard Walker's "Savile Row".


An excellent read and a cornerstone of my book collection.


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## kitonbrioni

Does anyone ever post pictures of their SR suits. It would be nice to see these pictures of these suits that wear like Kelvar and last til one grandson ruins them at a frat party.


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## Cantabrigian

Does anyone have any experience with Benson & Clegg or Welsh & Jefferies?

I take it that at least the second is in more of the military styling tradition but am not sure about the first.


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## medwards

Cantabrigian said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Benson & Clegg or Welsh & Jefferies?I take it that at least the second is in more of the military styling tradition but am not sure about the first.


While I have not used Benson & Clegg myself (except for the purchase of some blazer buttons), I do have a colleague who has been a longstanding customer and remains extremely satisfied with their work and pricing. As I noted on the first page of this thread, B&C -- which will be celebrating its 70th year in operation next -- is just off Savile Row and gained considerable notoriety as George VI's tailor. The firm's basic approach is rather traditional in a somewhat cosmopolitan sort of way. The silhouette is somewhat middle of the road, not too firm nor loose, with enough shaping for definition without undercutting ease of movement. I should say the little contact I have had has been most pleasant. Their customer service was first rate.

Here are some other threads that might be of interest:

On B&C ties -- https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=54538

On B&C customer service -- https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=51771


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## harrybee

*Anthony Sinclair*

Does anyone know whether Anthony Sinclair is still a tailor?


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## medwards

I believe some time back RJman shared that Richard W Paine had taken over Anthony Sinclair's tailoring business.


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## culverwood

*Benson and Clegg*



Cantabrigian said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Benson & Clegg or Welsh & Jefferies?


I have just had a DB 6x3 Blazer made at Benson and Clegg. The cutter who measured me, Daniel Williams, seemed a decent chap and not in a hurry to finish the job if he was not fully satisfied with the fit. It was my first time back to "Savile Row" after a long spell in RTW and obviously the first time they had measured me so this may be a reason for the number of fittings. I wanted a heavyish cloth and found one in the shade of dark blue I was after. Their knowledge of buttons was useful in this instance as they arranged to have hand engraved ones made to a design I gave them.

They are a small shop and I felt I was getting a personal service, an impression I did not get from the big operations. Their prices are very reasonable. One of the cutters is on duty on Saturdays which is useful if you do not live or work in London.

The style seems, as medwards says, to be middle of the road and not too tight though a DB 6x3 blazer is always going to look a little military.

While there for my fittings I had ample opportunity to observe their service for buttons, ties and badges and the gentleman who runs that section was most patient with some difficult customers.


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## Concordia

Cantabrigian said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Benson & Clegg or Welsh & Jefferies?
> 
> I take it that at least the second is in more of the military styling tradition but am not sure about the first.


I've had a few things from Welsh & Jefferies. Malcolm Plews-- their current head cutter-- is one of the nicest people anywhere, not just on SR. Universally esteemed by his peers from what I can tell. Very understated sense of style, rather middle of the Row. I can't promise you that you'll prefer his suits to others' but if you want what he tries to do for clients, you will almost certainly be very happy.

Comes to NYC twice a year.


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## medwards

*A Look At Huntsman*

Tom Leonard has an interesting article on focusing on Huntsman in today's online London Telegraph.

It gives a pretty good view of both the firm and the bespoke Savile Row experience.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

As a customer of H. Huntsman, I found the article quite accurate. As I wrote earlier, I believe Huntsman to create Savile Row's most distinctive and elegant look: clean, simple, trim with a rather sharp shoulder and longer coat. The prices are indeed dear (yet considerably less than what Armani aims to charge for his new bespoke line) but the attention to detail and quality remains first rate. Obviously Mr Leonard has joined the ranks of satisfied clients. Chalk(stripe) up one more for SR. Cheers!


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## Artisan Fan

I had a conversation with Tom Mahon today that was quite pleasant. I think we will be giving him some business when he comes to Atlanta in late October/November.

That will be my first bespoke experience.


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## dan bush

Are there any sites that offer English Cut suits online? Are there any Saville Row guys that offer online, besides Steed?


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## jcusey

I'm not trying to be rude, but why would you want this? It seems to me that an essential component of the Savile Row, or any bespoke, experience ought to be the attention given to the fit of the finished product. This is impossible with something ordered online. All you'd be getting is a glorified stock single.


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## medwards

dan bush said:


> Are there any sites that offer English Cut suits online? Are there any Saville Row guys that offer online, besides Steed?


Davies & Son provides this service.

While Davies has done some excellent bespoke for me, I have no experience with this aspect of their business and cannot offer any insights into it.


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## RJman

Dan:

The very significant problem with your question is that whatever you get ordering online may not be what you think of as an English Cut suit. The online ordering facilities for Davies/James & James are for their made-to-measure product, which is made in a factory somewhere (at one point France, now Germany IIRC). This suit is not made to the standards of their bespoke product, but instead is glued together. Any value that a Savile Row tailor could add to such a product, the ability to measure you accurately, is not available if you plug in your measurements online. Further, you would not have any opportunity for a fitting at which any errors in measurement or issues in fit could be corrected. So you would receive a suit with a Savile Row label inside but not made to Savile Row standard. Many Savile Row tailors offer such a MTM program, although few offer the possibility of online ordering. 

One Savile Row tailor, Maurice Sedwell, did offer the opportunity to provide all of your measurements details for a full bespoke suit online. (I am not sure if they still do.) However, there are several issues with such an order: Firstly, the details required were very comprehensive, and I would trust their tailors to take such measurements much more than anyone else, particularly as they would be the ones interpreting such measurements; secondly, as this was for a full bespoke suit, the price was 1800 pounds, which is a very large commitment to hazard on an online order using self-measurements; thirdly, as the order was for a bespoke suit, I believe you would be required to meet them in London or on their bespoke visits for several fittings at which issues in measurement and fit could be addressed, so the order could not be fully carried out online.


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## medwards

A bit of a side note. James & James was a rather well established Savile Row firm which pushed the rest of the Row in terms of "modern techniques" and approaches (it has often been noted that J&J was an early advocate of fusing). The house was purchased by Alan Bennett a while back and incorporated into Davies & Son. At the time, it appeared that 1) the Davies connection would move J&J to a more traditional bent in terms of construction and 2) that the firm would remain a presence in some manner -- if only to keep history alive and its past customers happy. Therefore, it's interesting to note that Davies is now using some of these new fangled methods for its online service and that the old James & James site --( -- has really disappeared and one is taken directly to Davies & Son instead. However, two other Davies acquisitions -- Wells of Mayfair and Johns & Pegg -- have sites that are still up and being mantained,


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## Mr. Chatterbox

That too will change. As the amalgamation of companies continues, as old customers die off, and as new ones emerge, these old firms will be just names on a letterhead. The unique feel of all these old Savile Row tailors is being lost and a more generic approach is taking over. Perhaps the inevitable necessity of competing in today's world. Tis a pity!


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## medwards

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> That too will change. As the amalgamation of companies continues, as old customers die off, and as new ones emerge, these old firms will be just names on a letterhead. The unique feel of all these old Savile Row tailors is being lost and a more generic approach is taking over. Perhaps the inevitable necessity of competing in today's world. Tis a pity!


Savile Row is indeed changing...and it will continue to change. While I miss much of the old Savile Row, many of these changes have been necessary for its very survival. Here's an interesting look at today's Savile Row that appeared in _Cigar Aficionado Magazine_ earlier this summer. Among the firms highlighted are *Poole*, *Huntsman*, *Kilgour*, *Gieves & Hawke*, and *Davies & Son*.


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## Cantabrigian

Recently posted on Tom Mahon's blog cum company website in an entry entitled 'coming together...':

It seems as though Tom has some rather grand plans for the compound in Cumbria - to assemble a tailoring workshop and to eventually have a shoemaker and shirtmaker there.

Do people think this will take off?

Also, does anyone know if Tom has chosen an apprentice or apprentices?


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## Artisan Fan

> Do people think this will take off?


I think it's possible. There are real facility savings for people to share overhead, etc. May lead to a group based insurance rates, health plans, etc.

I think Tom may be traveling in the Fall with Jason Amesbury so maybe there will be some sort of alliance there.

From a customer standpoint, traveling to the English countryside and getting several things done at once might be attractive as well. Partner with a local bed & breakfast perhaps?

I see possibilities...


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## mrchapel

Artisan Fan said:


> I think it's possible. There are real facility savings for people to share overhead, etc. May lead to a group based insurance rates, health plans, etc.
> 
> I think Tom may be traveling in the Fall with Jason Amesbury so maybe there will be some sort of alliance there.
> 
> From a customer standpoint, traveling to the English countryside and getting several things done at once might be attractive as well. Partner with a local bed & breakfast perhaps?
> 
> I see possibilities...


I'm inclined to agree with you completely. I do like the sound of the idea of taking a trip to a English countryside and having a bespoke suit, shirt, and shoes made, if what he is planning becomes a reality.


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## passingtime

Cantabrigian said:


> It seems as though Tom has some rather grand plans for the compound in Cumbria - to assemble a tailoring workshop and to eventually have a shoemaker and shirtmaker there.
> 
> Do people think this will take off?


In principle there is no reason why he couldn't assemble a workshop there, but both he and the other makers would still need to travel as I doubt many people would want to hike up to the wilds of Cumbria (the other end of England from London) on a regular basis for fittings. Recruiting tailors will be hard as well although he probably only needs a couple.


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## medwards

I understand what Mr. Mahon is trying to do and have great admiration for him in this effort. It may be a business model that works for him...and it may in fact help keep Savile Row _craftsmanship_ alive. But that's a far different thing than keeping _Savile Row _alive. The dispersal of tailors -- and those services that support them -- to the far-reaches of the country will eventually erode the distinction of Savile Row and SR tailoring. Perhaps that's inevitable. But the loss of Savile Row as a center as well as an idea is discouraging.


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## son of brummell

medwards said:


> I understand what Mr. Mahon is trying to do and have great admiration for him in this effort. It may be a business model that works for him...and it may in fact help keep Savile Row _craftsmanship_ alive. But that's a far different thing than keeping _Savile Row _alive. The dispersal of tailors -- and those services that support them -- to the far-reaches of the country will eventually erode the distinction of Savile Row and SR tailoring. Perhaps that's inevitable. But the loss of Savile Row as a center as well as an idea is discouraging.


I wish Mr. Mahon the best for his project.

Aside from rents and fewer skilled tailors, I see the Row's biggest challenge as diminishing demand caused by the changing attitudes of dress. I am talking about the casual cancer.

If the demand were present, then everything would take care of itself.

Traditional menswear clothiers are seeing the changing attitudes as a worldwide problem that is spreading. I spoke to a local leading menswear retailer with long ties to Italy. His vendors are all concerned about the creeping casual cancer which is spreading into the so-called civilized sectors of Italy.


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## Cantabrigian

medwards said:


> I understand what Mr. Mahon is trying to do and have great admiration for him in this effort. It may be a business model that works for him...and it may in fact help keep Savile Row _craftsmanship_ alive. But that's a far different thing than keeping _Savile Row _alive. The dispersal of tailors -- and those services that support them -- to the far-reaches of the country will eventually erode the distinction of Savile Row and SR tailoring. Perhaps that's inevitable. But the loss of Savile Row as a center as well as an idea is discouraging.


I think you hint at an interesting question - namely what makes a tailor a Savile Row tailor?

Mahon's answer:


Thomas Mahon on English Cut said:


> As you already know from reading English Cut, Savile Row tailors don't always operate on the Row itself. Namely, we're quite a nomadic bunch, and when you walk through the front door of a shop to order a suit, chances are that the suit won't be actually made on the premises.
> 
> This, of course, is no crime. If your suit is made around the corner in Soho, or put together by a tailor in a shed at the bottom of the garden in Kent, it doesn't really matter. What matters is the quality and the pedigree: who the tailor is and who trained him.


Are 'pedigree' which presumably means having been trained at an established SR house and quality sufficient to make someone a Savile Row tailor?

As I have not yet had the pleasure of commissioning anything from a London tailor of any stripe (a situation that I hope to change with Dege's US visit next Spring), what do the experienced Row-ers think?

Or does it even matter?


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## medwards

It matters to some...for financial, business, cultural, national, historical and fashion reasons. To others, a suit is just a suit...

There is certainly value in having a centre such as Savile Row. It creates an important synergy among craftsmen, suppliers, and even diverse tailoring firms. But Savile Row is something more than a mere geographic location...and it is more than just a particular style or manner in which a garment is crafted. Where and how someone trained may well be an important factor in this equation, but it simply isn't sufficient to capture the underlying and (to now) enduring _idea_ of Savile Row...just as a Savile Row address doesn't in itself make one such a _Savile Row tailor_. But it is hard to imagine that one can expand the boundaries of the golden area to Cumbria and still think the concept of Savile Row can long last.

Perhaps a rough analogy would be the idea of Broadway. This is not just a street or an area. It's not simply a name for a quality product. It is a living concept. Certainly there are other theatres as good as any on Broadway; plays that are just as well written, performed, and received; actors, writers, directors, technicians who have had the Broadway experience but who move elsewhere; but Broadway is Broadway. And New York, the theatre, and theatre-goers would all lose something very, very important were the lights to go out on the Great White Way.


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## son of brummell

Cantabrigian said:


> I think you hint at an interesting question - namely what makes a tailor a Savile Row tailor?
> 
> Mahon's answer:
> 
> Are 'pedigree' which presumably means having been trained at an established SR house and quality sufficient to make someone a Savile Row tailor?
> 
> As I have not yet had the pleasure of commissioning anything from a London tailor of any stripe (a situation that I hope to change with Dege's US visit next Spring), what do the experienced Row-ers think?
> 
> Or does it even matter?


The danger of a diaspora of the Row is that there will no longer be a nucleus of shops where tailors can train, grow, and set-up their own shops. In other words, tailoring, like other pursuits, needs a marketplace of both customers and workers in order to thrive.

Like any endeavor in life, tailors/cutters/shirtmakers/stylists work at various places to get their training and experience. Although some have the good fortune to be employed by one house (e.g., Simon Cundey of the Poole dynasty), a good number of established tailors have worked at a number of places before setting-up their own shops.

A good case history is Alan Bennet of Davies & Son. He started as an apprentice at Kilgour, French & Stanbury at the age of 16. He went to another shop to get more skills at both tailoring and cutting and more salary. He did that a couple of times until he set-up his own shop which was mentioned in the Walker book. He had his own shop under his own name for about 10 years. Eventually, in about 1998 he bought Davies & Son.

One of his younger cutters, Andrew Musson, started at Wells of Mayfair. He had a couple of jobs until he came to Davies. Now, ironically, Davies has acquired Wells. Life comes full circle.

One hallmark of the Row is that clothing is treated as a serious craft. The Row has a great history. In comparison, the USA does not have this history and traditon. Clothes in the USA are viewed as commodities. Furthermore, with the exception of one tailor in NYC all NYC bespoke tailors are immigrants.

Therefore, an erosion of the "center" will not be a good thing.

However, Mr. Mahon has an excellent idea. I hope that it works. With the exception of a few of the firms, a good amount of the work is done off the Row in either workers' home or workshops, such as the one on Kingley Street. I read in the Walker book that even during the 1800's Poole and other tailors had outworkers and workshops off the Row.


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## erasmus

Perusing the old Kilgour site (https://www.8savilerow.com/) this evening, I noticed a small link to the new website ().

It looks like an attempt to inject more branding consistency at least in terms of the domain name. Kilgour.com is taken by a family photo album


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## medwards

Thank you. The Kilgour link in the initial posting has now been update to reflect this.


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## erasmus

*More website changes*

I did some more browsing tonight and it seems Tom Brown's website has changed as well:


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## medwards

Thank you. That has now been updated as well.


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## Gruto

medwards said:


> Perhaps a rough analogy would be the idea of Broadway. This is not just a street or an area. It's not simply a name for a quality product. It is a living concept. Certainly there are other theatres as good as any on Broadway; plays that are just as well written, performed, and received; actors, writers, directors, technicians who have had the Broadway experience but who move elsewhere; but Broadway is Broadway. And New York, the theatre, and theatre-goers would all lose something very, very important were the lights to go out on the Great White Way.


Tour de France cannot be moved to the States, an English Pub cannot be moved to Madrid. Places, events and buildings "dwell". Geographic places like Savile Row has a (hi)story, a collective memory which cannot be moved without significant loses. Well, they can be, but not for real. If Mr Mahon wants to build a sartorial Mecca in Cumbria, he shall not try to move Savile Row but to make this new place dwell on its own.


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## RJman

I know that there was brief mention of certain SR tailors visiting China earlier. We also know that Kilgour has very good quality RTW and so-called Entry Level Bespoke made there. I just discovered this website for "Savile Row Quality" bespoke suits made in China -- and they use Davies & Son as their forwarding address! 

I don't think that Davies is outsourcing its tailorimg, or at least not all of it, but something interesting is going on...

We have our own order forms that are in Chinese and English. When you have completed the form, send it with any necessary trimmings (and cloth, if appropriate) to 'Davies & Son', who will check it before despatch to China. This minimises the likelihood of errors, which are both costly and time consuming to correct. 

"The finished garment is returned to 'Davies & Son', who will quality inspect before sending it to the client."

"I can honestly say that they are incredibly adaptable to your personal styles and specifications, and their hand work is second to none. I have every confidence in them and if you choose to use them, I'm sure you will not regret it. If you have any doubts or need to discuss your requirements, please feel free to call me." 
------------ Alan Bennett (Managing Director), Davies & Son, Savile Row, London

Camellia Universal Limited is involved in a project, in conjunction with Davies & Son of Savile Row, to source bespoke & semi-bespoke male and female suits from a highly respected tailoring house in China. Our Master Tailor has been working with a leading Savile Row company for over 8 years. We have more than 40 skilled tailors in our workshops who are regularly trained by Savile Row tailors.The next trip to update and retain our tailors in China is October 2006.



The prices are competitive and the delivery time for a 3-piece of suit is within 3 weeks straight to finish. However, extra time must be allowed for fittings.

We also offer hand made shirts, ties and cufflinks. 

Samples of all of these can be inspected in Savile Row at Davies & Son.


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## son of brummell

Very interesting. Perhaps this type of arrangement is the future of the Row? Or perhaps, this opens a lower cost alternative to the Row's quality. If Alan Bennett is involved I am sure that this is a quality operation.

I'll call Alan Bennett for further info.


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## Scarred by Homer

*Kilgour rtw - not made in China*



RJman said:


> We also know that Kilgour has very good quality RTW and so-called Entry Level Bespoke made there


Though Kilgour does make its 'Entry Level Bespoke' in Shanghai, its RTW is made in England. At least, that's what they claim. I have spoken to salesmen at the Kilgour outlet at Barneys in New York, Selfridges in Oxford Street, and indeed the Kilgour store on Savile Row, and all insist that the RTW suits, whether sold in New York or Savile Row, are made in England. The Savile Row people told me that they had their own factory in England - I seem to recall they said it was somewhere up north, though I may be wrong on that. But unless they're lying, Kilgour RTW suits and jackets are, at the moment, definitely made in England.


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## son of brummell

*Davies & Son and China*

I spoke briefly this morning to Alan Bennett.

Mr. Bennett is involved with the Chinese company on two fronts.

On front one, Davies & Son is exploring licensing its name to a number of shops that the Chinese company will open in China. Mr. Bennett and one of his associates have gone to China to train the tailors. The Chinese shops will do both bespoke and MTM. Mr. Bennett is prominent in the various pictures on the website. He noted that Poole, Kilgour, and Gieves already have licensing deals in China.

On the second front, Mr. Bennett is a joint agent in the UK and USA for the Chinese factory's MTM program, and he is offering technical assistance on the tailoring issues. He says that the product is excellent and has a good amount of handwork, such as buttonholes and linings. It's a fused suit. He said that the product will fill a void in UK in that he feels that it is superior to what is available in the MTM marketplace. It will have more allowances for variations in fit and details. A basted try-on will be available in the UK.

He said that the Chinese tailors are excellent and adaptable. They are willing to do the tedious work of tailoring. In comparison, everyone in England wants to be a "designer," and the UK's problems in recruiting young people to tailoring has been well chronicled here.

Mr. Bennett also said that the Chinese market is most exciting. He recalled that when he first came to NYC as a visiting tailor in the 1970's he experienced a "buzz" of excitement in NYC which was ahead of London's economy. He is experiencing that same "buzz." Mr. Bennett says that China has about 11 cities the size of NYC and that its emerging middle class wants upper class English things including language, education, culture, and SUITS.

Mr. Bennett assured me that the Davies & Son bespoke clothes are made in London either in its own workshops or in the workshops/homes of outworkers. It would be uneconomical and impractical to shuttle clothes back and forth between China and London.

Cheers.


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## son of brummell

*Davies & Son and China*

I spoke briefly this morning to Alan Bennett.

Mr. Bennett is involved with the Chinese company on two fronts.

On front one, Davies & Son is exploring licensing its name to a number of shops that the Chinese company will open in China. Mr. Bennett and one of his associates have gone to China to train the tailors. The Chinese shops will do both bespoke and MTM. Mr. Bennett is prominent in the various pictures on the website. He noted that Poole, Kilgour, and Gieves already have licensing deals in China.

On the second front, Mr. Bennett is a joint agent in the UK and USA for the Chinese factory's MTM program, and he is offering technical assistance on the tailoring issues. He says that the product is excellent and has a good amount of handwork, such as buttonholes and linings. It's a fused suit. He said that the product will fill a void in UK in that he feels that it is superior to what is available in the MTM marketplace. It will have more allowances for variations in fit and details. A basted try-on will be available in the UK.

He said that the Chinese tailors are excellent and adaptable. They are willing to do the tedious work of tailoring. In comparison, everyone in England wants to be a "designer," and the UK's problems in recruiting young people has been well chronicled here.

Mr. Bennett also said that the Chinese market is most exciting. He recalled that when he first came to NYC as a visiting tailor in the 1970's he experienced a "buzz" of excitement in NYC which was ahead of London's economy. He is experiencing that same "buzz." Mr. Bennett says that China has about 11 cities the size of NYC and that its emerging middle class wants upper class English things including language, education, culture, and SUITS.

Mr. Bennett assured me that the Davies & Son bespoke clothes are made in London either in its own workshops or in the workshops/homes of outworkers. It would be uneconomical and impractical to shuttle clothes back and forth between China and London.

Cheers.


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## Bonhamesque

I've seen this Chinese product and it's very impressive. It has a proper Savile Row cut and the construction is to a high standard as well - not as high as a S Row fully bespoke suit, but impressive.

It's similar in many ways to the Kilgour Shanghai suit. 
Good value.


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## nikwik

Bonhamesque said:


> Good value.


Do you have any idea of the prices?


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## Bonhamesque

nikwik said:


> Do you have any idea of the prices?


Obviously it will vary according to who you buy it through but I would estimate it'll start around the £1100 to £1300 mark (2-piece) and go up from there.


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## son of brummell

Alan Bennett told me that the price is 900 to 1,500 pounds.


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## Bonhamesque

Sounds about right.
I think it depends whether you go for the basted garment with proper fittings or the straight finish semi-bespoke option.
I believe they also do a fused MTM garment as well.


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## RJman

FYI, Henry Poole has a new website, same address www.henrypoole.com. Looks like they've pushed their Freedom visit date back a month, damn.

Interesting: "In 2006, Pooles opened its first shop in Beijing giving the opportunity of bringing the true Savile Row experience further across the globe."


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## medwards

*Steed Newsletter*

*Steed* has started a newsletter. It can be accessed here:


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## medwards

*Manning & Manning Website Updated*

And I see that Bryan Manning has updated his website: https://www.manning-and-manning.com/


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## medwards

*Updated Links*

I have updated all the links in the initial post in this thread. One interesting note is that the separate websites for *James & James*, *Johns & Pegg*, and *Wells* now all seem to be a thing of the past and are now direct links to the *Davies & Son *site. This was to be expected as these old firms became more and more integrated into Davies and their old customer base began to dwindle. Moreover, there is little -- if any reason -- to seek to add new customers to these venerable names rather than to Davies itself. That said, I do understand that Davies still meets the demands of old James & James, Johns & Pegg, and Wells customers, including fusing suits for those who had become accustomed to that look and feel when at James & James or Wells (though I should also note that not all Wells' suits were fused). While this isn't Davies preferred approach -- and Mr. Bennett et al would like to have everyone make the transition to the traditional way of tailoring a Savile Row coat -- they continue to respect their customers' wishes.


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## Mr. Chatterbox

I fear that some day in the not terribly distant future there will be only two types of Savile Row tailor: a very small handful of rather large firms who will have swallowed up all the "venerable" old names with their Royal warrants...and some number of one-person enterprises who are not located on the Row at all but who give fittings at Scabal or some other Savile Row address. Whether all this matters, I am not sure. But it will make keeping this thread updated a bit easier for you, Professor.


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## son of brummell

medwards said:


> I have updated all the links in the initial post in this thread. One interesting note is that the separate websites for *James & James*, *Johns & Pegg*, and *Wells* now all seem to be a thing of the past and are now direct links to the *Davies & Son *site. This was to be expected as these old firms became more and more integrated into Davies and their old customer base began to dwindle. Moreover, there is little -- if any reason -- to seek to add new customers to these venerable names rather than to Davies itself. That said, I do understand that Davies still meets the demands of old James & James, Johns & Pegg, and Wells customers, including fusing suits for those who had become accustomed to that look and feel when at James & James or Wells (though I should also note that not all Wells' suits were fused). While this isn't Davies preferred approach -- and Mr. Bennett et al would like to have everyone make the transition to the traditional way of tailoring a Savile Row coat -- they continue to respect their customers' wishes.


Alan Bennett told me that Davies makes fused suits for the few hold-outs from the James and Wells customer ranks. He mentioned a very important business leader who prefers it that way. The customer feels that it is a smoother and crisper look. In essence, the customer wants the same suit and doesn't want to "mess around with a winning combination."


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## bystander

*Huntsman without old hands*

One of the advantages of this thread is the immensity of resources it puts together on a well specified topic.

As is widely known Richard Anderson, Brian Lishak and Clive Gilkes use to work with Huntsman. Would anyone know the reasons why Huntsman lost these three experienced hands, and what it meant for those who use Huntsman to work with new faces?

Of course this happened some time back but I continue to be intrigued by the development and would be grateful for some clarity


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## Bonhamesque

I would assume that some of them (e.g. Richard Anderson) reached a stage where they felt they were good enough to set up their own company and therefore benefit from all the advantages therein.
Being your own boss can be bloody marvellous if you know what you're doing.


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## bystander

Thank you, Bonhamesque; that is definitely one possibility. The other part of the puzzle though is what the departures meant for the Huntsman clientele


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## Bonhamesque

In these situations I find the clientele of that particluar cutter usually do one of two things:

1. Follow the cutter to their new establishment thereby depriving Huntsman of some business.
2. Loyally stick with Huntsman and hope that the replacement cutter to whom they're introduced, understands them as well as the departed cutter did.
From a legal standpoint Huntsman own the clients actual patterns so the client can continue to receive the exact same fit and cut as he always did.

The departing cutter obviousy leaves Huntsman with a vacancy which they would usually fill by poaching someone from elsewhere on the Row.
If there's no-one else available on the Row they would be forced to take on an apprentice.


----------



## bystander

Bonhamesque said:


> In these situations I find the clientele of that particluar cutter usually do one of two things:
> 
> 1. Follow the cutter to their new establishment thereby depriving Huntsman of some business.
> 2. Loyally stick with Huntsman and hope that the replacement cutter to whom they're introduced, understands them as well as the departed cutter did.
> From a legal standpoint Huntsman own the clients actual patterns so the client can continue to receive the exact same fit and cut as he always did.
> 
> The departing cutter obviousy leaves Huntsman with a vacancy which they would usually fill by poaching someone from elsewhere on the Row.
> If there's no-one else available on the Row they would be forced to take on an apprentice.


Which of the two do you think was the more likely mode of client behaviour?


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## Bonhamesque

I think the majority of clients would follow the cutter to his new business but it really depends on the type of client and the relationship they had with their cutter.
If the client has an excellent very friendly relationship with his cutter, built up over many years he may feel more loyalty towards the cutter than he would for Huntsman. He might also feel that by buying a suit from the departed cutter he would be doing them a favour by starting their new business off with a good order.
The client will usually save money too as the cutter won't tend to charge as much as Huntsman do.

On the other hand some clients value the label inside the suit higher than they value the attention of a particular cutter. They get a buzz from showing their colleagues that 'it's a Huntsman' so would prefer an historic brand to a new unestablished one.
Equally, if they are new to Huntsman and there is not yet any special bond between client and cutter they may have no problem at all with changing to a new cutter within the same company.

Another factor affecting all this is how the departed cutter conducts his business. Often they would try to contact their clients after leaving to ensure that they go with him - even though technically this is illegal.


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## bystander

Bonhamesque, the "analytical framework" about how choices might be made by clients in a situation where the cutter leaves a tailor is rather well set out in your post. The remaining question is what actually transpired. There may well be a forum member or, indeed, members out there with "real time" experience who could inform us.


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## medwards

The real world experience suggests that relatively few customers travel with their cutter to a new or different establishment. There are many reasons for this. Most customers think of their relationship with the firm not the individual who measures them. Where relationships exist, it may well be with the proprietor or managing director rather than the staff member who holds the tape measure and pins. There is generally little understanding of the role various individuals play within the tailoring firm and in many, many cases, the client simply thinks of the various employees as precisely that...employees whose work can be replicated by another individual. Even where a relationship exists, when a cutter moves to another firm, there is more to consider than just his personal skill or the relationship which might have developed. One's pattern remains with the orginal shop. The new house will have its own default style, pricing structure, ambience etc which may or may not be to a customers liking. If the cutter goes out on his own, the new enterprise is untested and there is little guarantee of the product being the same or the new firm remaining in business terribly long. Moreover, the Row is a very close-knit community and those employees who do leave for another - or their own - company tend not to pursue their former clients too aggressively. Such poaching is rather bad form. That said, there are certainly times in which cutters leave because of general problems with their current establishment -- and these problems may also be apparent to their customers in which case should the cutter leave, the client may go as well. And there are clearly instances when the relationship is such that one wants to continue it in whatever venue should be forthcoming. Perhaps Scott might share his experiences with Huntsman/Richard Andrrson/Brian Lishak as an example?


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## bystander

Thank you medwards for an exhaustive reply that neatly sums up the "real world" behaviour


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## medwards

Thank you. I should probably add that the impact would undoubtedly be greater the longer the cutter was at the firm, the smaller the firm is, and how visible a role the cutter played in the shop's identity and operations.


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## Bonhamesque

medwards said:


> The real world experience suggests that relatively few customers travel with their cutter to a new or different establishment. There are many reasons for this. Most customers think of their relationship with the firm not the individual who measures them. Where relationships exist, it may well be with the proprietor or managing director rather than the staff member who holds the tape measure and pins. There is generally little understanding of the role various individuals play within the tailoring firm and in many, many cases, the client simply thinks of the various employees as precisely that...employees whose work can be replicated by another individual. Even where a relationship exists, when a cutter moves to another firm, there is more to consider than just his personal skill or the relationship which might have developed. One's pattern remains with the orginal shop. The new house will have its own default style, pricing structure, ambience etc which may or may not be to a customers liking. If the cutter goes out on his own, the new enterprise is untested and there is little guarantee of the product being the same or the new firm remaining in business terribly long. Moreover, the Row is a very close-knit community and those employees who do leave for another - or their own - company tend not to pursue their former clients too aggressively. Such poaching is rather bad form. That said, there are certainly times in which cutters leave because of general problems with their current establishment -- and these problems may also be apparent to their customers in which case should the cutter leave, the client may go as well. And there are clearly instances when the relationship is such that one wants to continue it in whatever venue should be forthcoming. Perhaps Scott might share his experiences with Huntsman/Richard Andrrson/Brian Lishak as an example?


I wouldn't entirely agree with this, having been the member of staff doing the leaving on 3 occasions.
I can't speak for Richard Anderson et al but the majority of my clients came with me simply because I'd looked after them so well and they weren't particularly fussed about the label inside the suit as long as it was English made and high quality.
In many cases you'll also find that the departed staff member is using the same 'off-Row' tailors as Huntsman / whoever do anyway so the client needn't be concerned about quality.
As for the poaching being bad form, it is indeed bad form but I'm afraid it happens all the time.
The fact that the person doing the poaching will undoubtedly have to walk past his former colleagues on a daily basis doesn't usually deter him.
There aren't enough people in the world who can regularly afford to buy S Row suits so it's a cut-throat world as far as client lists go.

I don't always want to talk about my own experiences on this forum but if you want 'real world' there it is.


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## medwards

Bonhamesque said:


> I wouldn't entirely agree with this, having been the member of staff doing the leaving on 3 occasions.
> I can't speak for Richard Anderson et al but the majority of my clients came with me simply because I'd looked after them so well and they weren't particularly fussed about the label inside the suit as long as it was English made and high quality.


I would certainly defer to your personal experiences, but I would underscore a few points. That your customers came with you is undoubted because you "looked after them so well." I would suggest that this is not always the case; in many instances it is little more than a straightforward business relationship. Moreover, a large number of customers avail themselves of bespoke suits rather infrequently. A year or so may elapse between orders. And many simply order a rather straightforward garment -- classic house style in a rather traditional fabric. I would suggest that those clients tend to build less of a relationship -- or feel the need for one -- than more frequent, demanding, and perhaps discerning customers. Moreover, I would assume that the base for a cutter setting out on his own would be his previous customers. While that might be a large part of his new clientele, it still might be a relatively small proportion of his previous firm's customers. All this is not to negate the fact that the loss a respected and talented cutter can be a major blow to a tailoring firm.

As you stated earlier, in the end "it really depends on the type of client and the relationship they had with their cutter."


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## Bonhamesque

*Salesmanship*

Indeed.
I would add to that by saying that a good business-minded cutter would not allow too many of his clients to build up a 'straightforward business relationship' especially if the cutter is planning on going solo.
You want your potential future clients to remember you and therefore allowing them to go through each transaction in a cold robotic fashion will not help your cause in the long run.
It's no coincidence that the more colourful characters on the Row seem to sell more suits.


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## RSS

bystander said:


> As is widely known Richard Anderson, Brian Lishak and Clive Gilkes use to work with Huntsman. Would anyone know the reasons why Huntsman lost these three experienced hands, and what it meant for those who use Huntsman to work with new faces?
> 
> Of course this happened some time back but I continue to be intrigued by the development and would be grateful for some clarity


Bystander, I was a Huntsman client who ultimately followed Richard, Brian & Clive when they left.

The reason for the departure had to do with the sale of Huntsman. Richard & Brian (perhaps Clive as well) had reached what they thought was an agreement to purchase. But the firm was subsequently sold to another party ... in secret. I would imagine that explains the departure.

When they first left ... it was all a bit of a mystery. I really had no clue as to what happened. But, I wasn't left alone at Huntsman ... as Peter Smith and Terry Haste were there ... and I was fine with them.

It was perhaps a year later when I ran across Brian (he was a big part of my having selected Huntsman in the first place) that he told me about Richard Anderson, Ltd. As for switching from Huntsman to Richard Anderson ... well, I didn't like the idea of going without Brian and Richard.

Even so, I have returned to Huntsman from time to time when they came out with an annual house check/tweed that I really appreciated. But, otherwise, I have stuck with Richard Anderson &#8230; and recently have resumed working with Anderson & Sheppard as well. _(It's a long story.)_

I might add that Brian, Richard & Clive have each played a major role in influencing my wardrobe. Brian has had more influence than anyone! But my first mentor was Colin Harvey at Anderson & Sheppard.

*Edit:* For me it is less about the firm ... and more about the people who make the firm what it is. I have recently begun working with Anderson & Sheppard again because of John Hitchcock. I remember him from "days of old" ... and he has matured rather nicely (personally and professionally) ... and when talking to him about old times ... I can actually get a smile out of him!


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## RSS

One more thing ... someone sent me an e-mail asking how Clive has influenced my wardrobe choices. One example is in shirts made from a woven cloth. It was Clive who first suggested that I occasionally try reversing the cloth for collar and cuffs.


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## William Westmancott

*I wouldn't want to get forgotten...*

I'm the most recent of the Savile Row cutters to branch out on my own.
Having learnt my craft in Anthony J Hewitt and then later at Dege and Skinner; I have now left and launched my own business.

My cutting style is very similar to the Dege 'military' cut with a well structured chest, and waist shaping, although any style can be accommodated.

Find my site at 
I will by scheduling visits to America in the coming year.
I'd love to hear from anyone interested.


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## medwards

Thank's for the reminder. I have updated the initial list in this thread.


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## medwards

*Davies & Son Website*

I see that *Davies & Son* has a new _flashier _website:


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## richstyle

medwards said:


> I see that *Davies & Son* has a new _flashier _website:


For a still flashier version they should have used the Emerson, Lake & Palmer version for the soundtrack.


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## medwards

Speaking of *Davies and Son*, there are reports that with Ron Pescod's retirement from *Adeney & Boutroy*, that name may well be consolidated with another Savile Row house. Davies remains the most likely candidate.


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## culverwood

More news at


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## Richie_G

Will said:


> Scabal benefits greatly by having tailors use the premises. The fabric shown is theirs unless the customer is considered worthy of the added time it takes to browse the other suppliers in the area.
> 
> ------------------------
> Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


 "Unless a customer is considered worthy of added time" What does that mean? I would hope every customer is considered "worthy of added time" when buying a bespoke suit at Savile Row prices.


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## outrigger

RJman said:


> Tobias Davis www.tobiastailors.co.uk -- formerly on the Row


Could this be udated. https://www.tobias-davis.co.uk/


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## Spoonern

My own tailor, Edward Sexton does not have a website. I have asked him about this and understand that his site will be coming early in the new year. In order to fill in the current lack of info on him - this thread refers only to his publicity, I would say:

There is a little more emphasis on the shoulder, a little more expression in the chest. He describes it thus “A Sexton suit is of a soft construction distinguished by a high cut armhole and a rope shoulder, with a distinctive collar and lapel shape. A higher waist helps to create a taller, slender silhouette.”

Hope this helps give more of an impression of his work.


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## andreyb

*Savile Row Bespoke Association*

A web-site mentioned in other thread: https://www.savilerowbespoke.com/

The site belongs to Savile Row Bespoke Association. It is not formally opened yet, but there are already loads of beautiful photos.

Andrey


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## RSS

*A Change at Anderson & Sheppard*

While most all of us know -- or remember -- that A&S was never fond of having photographs taken inside it's shop ... and they still turn away photo seekers ... on Monday morning, as I walked down Burlington Gardens, I could see the glare of the photographic lighting even before I turned the corner onto Old Burlington Street. The inside of A&S was lighted as I've never seen it ... being photographed for the Savile Row exhibit taking place in Italy early next year.

In a state of near blindness I searched desparately for my sunglasses ... then entered.


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## medwards

Perhaps they will use some of those images for their new website, which should be finished rather soon: https://www.anderson-sheppard.co.uk/


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## Will

Richie_G said:


> "Unless a customer is considered worthy of added time" What does that mean? I would hope every customer is considered "worthy of added time" when buying a bespoke suit at Savile Row prices.


If you have a specific idea that suggests the walk over to W.Bill is in order, of course they will do it.

I've also heard stories of prospective "customers" taking an entire day of the tailor's time and leaving without a purchase. That's over the top.


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## medwards

*Back in Time: SR Visits the US -- December 1966*

I recently came across the following article from Time Magazine 40 years ago (December 30, 1966). It is on Savile Row tailors visiting the US. In some respects, little has changed. In others -- such as the $200 - $250 prices -- things are rather different. Tailors mentioned include Poole, Huntsman, Kilgour French Stanbury, JC Wells, and Norton. And by the way, anyone know where one might get some of Huntsman's Scotch river water for cleaning one's suit.


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## DukeGrad

*Davies and Son?*

Gentlemen,

I am a sucker, for music. I will buy anything, if the music score is great.
Richstyle, or Medwards. I know this is Emerson/Lake and Palmer cut. Who is this that is doing the track now? Woritehat is the cut, it is not Lucky Man, my fav
Gorgeous voice, sounds Irish?

Thank you gentlemen


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## Bonhamesque

medwards said:


> I recently came across the following article from Time Magazine 40 years ago (December 30, 1966). It is on Savile Row tailors visiting the US. In some respects, little has changed. In others -- such as the $200 - $250 prices -- things are rather different. Tailors mentioned include Poole, Huntsman, Kilgour French Stanbury, JC Wells, and Norton. And by the way, anyone know where one might get some of Huntsman's Scotch river water for cleaning one's suit.


That's a fascinating article medwards. You're right, not much has changed in some respects.

Incidentally my grandfather met Louis Stanbury when he had some suits made by KFS back in the 60's.
He told me that when he criticised the fit of the suit (my grandpa was a fussy bar steward) Mr Stanbury ripped the suit off of his back in a rage and threw it across the room shouting "GO SOMEWHERE ELSE THEN!"

Can't imagine anyone at Kilgour doing that today...


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## medwards

Richard Walker recounts the story of Louis Stanbury seizing a suit coat and stamping furiously on it to demonstrate to one of his tailors how much he disapproved of shoddy workmanship. "Er, yes, said his startled customer, who was supposed to be impressed by the performance, "but what about my watch. It was in the pocket." :icon_smile_big:


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## RJman

Not quite Savile Row, but certainly its parallel incarnation: Cheshire Bespoke, the phoenixlike heir company to Cheshire Clothing, which itself encompassed the manufacturing operations of the former Chester Barrie, at one time RTW-maker to the Row and Row denizen, finally has a working website. Interestingly, it is geared to the trade. Cheshire Bespoke consists of Cheshire Clothing workers rehired by tailor-designer Tony Lutwyche after Cheshire Clothing went into liquidation last year. The website is www.tonylutwyche.com, for those interested in a quick look at this company with an interesting history (founded by the same American who founded d'Avenza, outfitters to Churchill, RTW makers to companies as diverse as Huntsman and Michael Tapia, Gieves & Hawkes and Spencer Hart) and troubled past.


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## jcusey

RJman said:


> Not quite Savile Row, but certainly its parallel incarnation: Cheshire Bespoke, the phoenixlike heir company to Cheshire Clothing, which itself encompassed the manufacturing operations of the former Chester Barrie, at one time RTW-maker to the Row and Row denizen, finally has a working website. Interestingly, it is geared to the trade. Cheshire Bespoke consists of Cheshire Clothing workers rehired by tailor-designer Tony Lutwyche after Cheshire Clothing went into liquidation last year. The website is www.tonylutwyche.com, for those interested in a quick look at this company with an interesting history (founded by the same American who founded d'Avenza, outfitters to Churchill, RTW makers to companies as diverse as Huntsman and Michael Tapia, Gieves & Hawkes and Spencer Hart) and troubled past.


Despite the misuse of the word Bespoke, I wish them better luck or better management than the two previous incarnations of Chester Barrie. The UK can use a decent manufacturer of RTW and MTM clothing, and I don't think that there are really any others that one could describe in such terms with a straight face.


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## Bonhamesque

Chester Barrie seems to have died and been reborn a thousand times. I hope Tony can keep it going longer than his predecessors. I'd imagine he'll have to make dramatic changes to the company and work hard to change people's perceptions of a company that never seems to get it right.
The fact that their workroom is in England is a good thing, but they're up against stiff competition from the Far East.


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## culverwood

*Time Out*

While reading the 'Time Out 2007 Shops and Services' book, a very useful read, I came across the following tailors and I have precied what they say about the off-Row ones. The entries in the book are generally much longer.

Charlie Allen - 1 Coopers Yard N1 - Attention to detail, not just suit, customers can design their own cloth.

Eddie Kerr - 52 Berwick St W1 - Soho institution, unostentatious, Johnny Depp and bad guys in Casino Royal.

Gieves & Hawkes

Henry Poole

John Pearse - 6 Meard St W1 - Godfather of new British bespoke, Cream Hendrix and Jagger, Clooney & Pitt, tucked away in Soho.

Kilgour

Mark Powell - 12 Brewer St W1 - Encyclopedic knowledge, old school fitting with raff modernism, Krays & George Michael.

Oliver Benjamin - 8 Kingly St W1 - Lean jackets chiseled waists, Bryan Ferry.

Richard Anderson

Richard James

Timothy Everest - 32 Elder St E1 - Star of latest generation, David Cameron, Gordon Brown & David Beckham, rejection of rigidity of classic cuts, relaxed 21st century style.

Tony Lutwyche - 83 Berwick St W1 - ex army, sharp, keen eye.

William Hunt

George Tailors - 50 Wightman Road N4 - mod, handmade very reasonable prices.

Huntsman

Imatz - 7 The Walk E8 - designer and tailor.

Jonathan Quearney - 7 Windmill St W1 - Contemporary, Savile Row trained.

Nick Tentis - 2 Weymouth St W1 - English tailoring with Italian accent, relaxed yet sharp.

Susannah Hall - 110 Clerkenwell Rd EC1 - Innovative, for both sexes.

Threadneedleman - 187a Walworth St SE1 - Veteran George Dyer, suits for sharp dressers.


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## Bonhamesque

culverwood said:


> While reading the 'Time Out 2007 Shops and Services' book, a very useful read, I came across the following tailors and I have precied what they say about the off-Row ones. The entries in the book are generally much longer.
> 
> Charlie Allen - 1 Coopers Yard N1 - Attention to detail, not just suit, customers can design their own cloth.
> 
> Eddie Kerr - 52 Berwick St W1 - Soho institution, unostentatious, Johnny Depp and bad guys in Casino Royal.
> 
> Gieves & Hawkes
> 
> Henry Poole
> 
> John Pearse - 6 Meard St W1 - Godfather of new British bespoke, Cream Hendrix and Jagger, Clooney & Pitt, tucked away in Soho.
> 
> Kilgour
> 
> Mark Powell - 12 Brewer St W1 - Encyclopedic knowledge, old school fitting with raff modernism, Krays & George Michael.
> 
> Oliver Benjamin - 8 Kingly St W1 - Lean jackets chiseled waists, Bryan Ferry.
> 
> Richard Anderson
> 
> Richard James
> 
> Timothy Everest - 32 Elder St E1 - Star of latest generation, David Cameron, Gordon Brown & David Beckham, rejection of rigidity of classic cuts, relaxed 21st century style.
> 
> Tony Lutwyche - 83 Berwick St W1 - ex army, sharp, keen eye.
> 
> William Hunt
> 
> George Tailors - 50 Wightman Road N4 - mod, handmade very reasonable prices.
> 
> Huntsman
> 
> Imatz - 7 The Walk E8 - designer and tailor.
> 
> Jonathan Quearney - 7 Windmill St W1 - Contemporary, Savile Row trained.
> 
> Nick Tentis - 2 Weymouth St W1 - English tailoring with Italian accent, relaxed yet sharp.
> 
> Susannah Hall - 110 Clerkenwell Rd EC1 - Innovative, for both sexes.
> 
> Threadneedleman - 187a Walworth St SE1 - Veteran George Dyer, suits for sharp dressers.


These descriptions are far too brief and vague, I hope that anyone interested in buying from any of these companies takes the trouble to investigate further.


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## Trilby

Bonhamesque said:


> These descriptions are far too brief and vague, I hope that anyone interested in buying from any of these companies takes the trouble to investigate further.


The Time Out guide actually has a paragraph or two on each of these. It's still not enough information to make a buying decision, but it's a helpful starting point for someone looking for a tailor.


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## culverwood

Bonhamesque said:


> These descriptions are far too brief and vague, I hope that anyone interested in buying from any of these companies takes the trouble to investigate further.


As Trilby says the Time Out descriptions are generally much longer and included similar comments on the Savile Row companies for which I only gave the names as much has been written here about them, but copyright and politeness prevent me from providing the articles in their full form. It did seem useful information though and anyone interested can buy the book.


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## Geoff Souster

*hello all from Geoff Souster*

Have found all the knowledgable comments regarding bespoke and semi bespoke of great interest,have now been in the trade for 40 years and have my business with my wife Laura and my two sons Scott and Wes who are both learning bespoke cutting please feel free to ask any questions regarding this wonderfull trade.

Geoff M D Souster and Hicks


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## medwards

Thank you. We look forward to your contributions.


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## culverwood

Sousters at their out of London address also offer women's bespoke tailoring as my wife can confirm.


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## bystander

RSS said:


> Bystander, I was a Huntsman client who ultimately followed Richard, Brian & Clive when they left.
> 
> The reason for the departure had to do with the sale of Huntsman. Richard & Brian (perhaps Clive as well) had reached what they thought was an agreement to purchase. But the firm was subsequently sold to another party ... in secret. I would imagine that explains the departure.
> 
> When they first left ... it was all a bit of a mystery. I really had no clue as to what happened. But, I wasn't left alone at Huntsman ... as Peter Smith and Terry Haste were there ... and I was fine with them.
> 
> It was perhaps a year later when I ran across Brian (he was a big part of my having selected Huntsman in the first place) that he told me about Richard Anderson, Ltd. As for switching from Huntsman to Richard Anderson ... well, I didn't like the idea of going without Brian and Richard.
> 
> Even so, I have returned to Huntsman from time to time when they came out with an annual house check/tweed that I really appreciated. But, otherwise, I have stuck with Richard Anderson &#8230; and recently have resumed working with Anderson & Sheppard as well. _(It's a long story.)_
> 
> I might add that Brian, Richard & Clive have each played a major role in influencing my wardrobe. Brian has had more influence than anyone! But my first mentor was Colin Harvey at Anderson & Sheppard.
> 
> *Edit:* For me it is less about the firm ... and more about the people who make the firm what it is. I have recently begun working with Anderson & Sheppard again because of John Hitchcock. I remember him from "days of old" ... and he has matured rather nicely (personally and professionally) ... and when talking to him about old times ... I can actually get a smile out of him!


Thank you Scott; as always a useful post distinguished by the first hand experience and detail. I seem to have missed this post until now, chiefly because I did not visit this bit of AA since a couple of days after posting my inquiry.


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## Count Lippe

I have been lucky enough to have a preview of the https://www.SavileRowBespoke.com site after a visit to one of my tailors who belongs to the association. It clearly separates the 'charlatans', including DB, TM...etc from those who are able to provide the same quality and service that my father and grandfather were used to. 
As Nick Foulkes says in the introduction to the section on Craftsmanship on the site ' Tailoring had to change, I know that, but for a while it became like the Wild West with outfitters from overseas claiming to offer Savile Row quality at Far Eastern factory prices, or fashion designers leaping on the bandwagon promising to revolutionise bespoke tailoring and remake it in their own image. True tailoring has no need for such flashy distractions. True tailoring takes time; on the part of both the customer who has to wait and the tailors who gain their skills only after years of apprenticeship: generations of accumulated experience are expressed through the dextrous fingers of these craftsmen.' 
Although many claim to uphold the values that they were taught long ago during opportunistic apprenticeships, the true Master Cutters and Tailors claim that they are still learning and that they need to work in 'a cluster of excellence' to continue to develop their skills. Savile Row is still second to none, despite what its 'rejects' may try to tell us.


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## medwards

Thank you for the update. I do hope they will continue to make use of some of Guy Hills' splendid photography on the new site.


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## Count Lippe

As one of the most informed members of this forum (in my humble opinion), I can assure you that I have been told that Mr Hills is the exclusive photographer for Savile Row Bespoke. I met him when he was taking photographs at Norton & Sons and he told me that he had been invited to Florence for 'The London Cut' and that his photographs of this event would also be on the SRB site very soon. There seems to be a new atmosphere of cooperation in Savile Row.


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## medwards

Thank you. Yes, I found it interesting that Anderson & Sheppard's interim website now links to the Savile Row Bespoke site. I trust you are right and a new era of cooperation is taking hold on the Row.


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## Count Lippe

As a long time guest of this site, before only recently becoming a member - I find that your contribution has been the most positive and well informed on matters regarding Savile Row. I would be honoured to share information with someone who obviously cares about the future of British hand tailoring.


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## RJman

Surely, my dear Count, you are a devotee of Anderson & Sheppard! But where do you get your Vicuna sweaters and Mark Cross briefcases these days? Of course -- ebay!!!!


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## Count Lippe

These days, in keeping with the ways of most modern men, I devote myself to more than one tailor or leather goods maker... Whilst staying generally loyal to Anderson & Sheppard for my sartorial necessities, I have moved on from Ebay and frequent Ducas in Paris for custom made briefcases or the Marche Paul Bert for vintage items. I have been slightly at a loss for Vicuna sweaters though and thank you for your kind tip.


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## jcusey

Count Lippe said:


> It clearly separates the 'charlatans', including DB, TM...etc from those who are able to provide the same quality and service that my father and grandfather were used to.


I presume DB to be Darren Beaman and TM to be Thomas Mahon. Is there any particular reason why you classify Mahon as a charlatan?


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## Concordia

It is good news that Savile Row is marketing itself vs. the likes of Armani and RL. One wonders, however, what the guidelines for a "Savile Row suit" really are, and whether this isn't just a move to put pressure on some of the lower-priced independents. I can imagine some fascinating dining-table conversation at the Hitchcock household over the holidays...


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## Scoiatilo

Charlatan may well be a little harsh but it's clear that Mr Mahon trades on the name of Savile Row and Anderson & Sheppard in particular. Whilst he is known to have done a stint at A&S neither a Savile Row nor an A&S tailor is he. 

A friend of mine, following eight years at the fabulous house of H Huntsman, moved to Norton & Sons to work under John Kent. He claims that Kent has transformed his knowledge of cutting. Kent, who trained under the great Teddy Watson at the old Hawes & Curtis, claims he never stops learning despite 40 years on the Row, either from other great Cutters (he and Malcolm Plews are good friends), from the tailors he works with daily, and even from his undercutter. Becoming a Master Tailor on Savile Row means a dedication to learning that will span many decades. A quick stint (no matter how illustrious the House) will not teach you the subtleties of a craft like like bespoke tailoring.


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## manton

Scoiatilo said:


> Becoming a Master Tailor on Savile Row means a dedication to learning that will span many decades. A quick stint (no matter how illustrious the House) will not teach you the subtleties of a craft like like bespoke tailoring.


While this is certainly true, I think too much is often made of what is a generally sound principle. One sees, from time to time, arguments made to the effect that it is impossible to be both young and a great tailor. While there is no doubt a reliable correlation between age (experience) and skill, I don't think there is an iron connection.

For instance, in my case, all my best suits (or at least the ones that I think fit the best and look the best) were made by the youngest tailor I have ever used, and one who has never trained on Savile Row, or even with a big tailoring house.


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## Bonhamesque

Concordia said:


> It is good news that Savile Row is marketing itself vs. the likes of Armani and RL. One wonders, however, what the guidelines for a "Savile Row suit" really are, and whether this isn't just a move to put pressure on some of the lower-priced independents. I can imagine some fascinating dining-table conversation at the Hitchcock household over the holidays...


I think (and hope) that the criteria that SRB will demand of its members will be that the tailoring firm in question must be one that makes truly bespoke garments in the traditional S Row sense.
By that I mean that the products that they are selling as 'bespoke' must be cut and stitched by hand and not machine. Each customer has his/her own paper pattern and the process involves at least one baste fitting.
To me these are the minimum criteria and I hope that by requesting that these standards be met, they are consequently ruling out any possibility that the charlatans and other abusers of the word 'bespoke' can become members.
I assume this will either be reinforced by an additional label or orb mark/seal to be sewn into the jacket or by a certificate to be displayed inside the appropriate stores and on their web sites.
If it is carried out this way, I believe it will benefit both the S Row tailors and the public.
Potential clients would perhaps be less likely to be romanced by the word 'bespoke' and end up buying a suit believing it be bespoke when in fact it isn't.


----------



## Count Lippe

Yes, Scoiatilo, you are right - I should not have put both of them in the same category. 

My comments were informed by things that I have heard concerning the integrity of their persons and of the quality of their work. 

You are right again that it is better to concentrate on the positive and not to dwell on the negative.


----------



## Bonhamesque

manton said:


> While this is certainly true, I think too much is often made of what is a generally sound principle. One sees, from time to time, arguments made to the effect that it is impossible to be both young and a great tailor. While there is no doubt a reliable correlation between age (experience) and skill, I don't think there is an iron connection.
> 
> For instance, in my case, all my best suits (or at least the ones that I think fit the best and look the best) were made by the youngest tailor I have ever used, and one who has never trained on Savile Row, or even with a big tailoring house.


This is a good point.
Take for example Ritchie at Kilgour. I think he's only about 36 or 38....(?) but he's regarded as one of the best on the Row.
He also trained Campbell who he still works closely with. Campbell is about 32 and already an excellent cutter.


----------



## jcusey

Count Lippe said:


> My comments were informed by things that I have heard concerning the integrity of their persons and of the quality of their work.


I think that we are all aware about the nature and extent of the complaints about Darren Beaman. They have been done to death and need not be commented on further absent a compelling reason to do so. However, it seems to me that if you have evidence regarding a lack of integrity or professional competence in Thomas Mahon, you should present it clearly. If you do not have such evidence or you are unwilling to present it, you should remove the innuendo about him that you have posted heretofore.


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## Bonhamesque

Scoiatilo said:


> Charlatan may well be a little harsh but it's clear that Mr Mahon trades on the name of Savile Row and Anderson & Sheppard in particular. Whilst he is known to have done a stint at A&S neither a Savile Row nor an A&S tailor is he.


Personally I don't know whether Mahon's suits are any good or not as I've never seen one up close.
I'm not a fan of his but I don't dislike him either, I'm indifferent.
However I feel that I should defend him against your assertion that he's not a S Row tailor.
Whilst he may not necessarily do much of the tailoring on his own suits I think he at least deserves to be called a S Row cutter.
I agree with you that he's not an A&S tailor but my definition of a S Row cutter is one that has been trained there for a significant period of time, i.e. at least 3 years, even if he doesn't still work on the Row.
I suppose it comes down to your personal definition of what makes a S Row cutter/tailor.
I don't think you necessarily have to be permanently based there to call yourself a S Row tailor but it does imply that you worked there for long periods. 
I don't have a problem with cutters/tailors leaving the Row and then setting up on their own and calling themselves S Row cutters (although TM does milk the A&S connection somewhat) as long as they can back it up with the appropriate product.
I suppose the SRB criteria I mentioned above will sort the wheat from the chaff...?
Personally, I wouldn't complain if they gave their 'seal of approval' to a firm that wasn't based on the Row.


----------



## Count Lippe

As with any art, true talent cannot be acquired even by the most rigorous training, but a formal education in one of the great Savile Row houses will make sure that this talent is brought out to its fullest. 

The Senior Cutters in the Cutting Room at the tailors who make my formal wear, have over 80 years experience between them and hundreds of additional years handed down by the gentlemen who took them on as apprentices - as with any true craft, this must have a bearing on the quality of their work.

On another note, I fully agree with Bonhamesque's hopes for the Savile Row Bespoke association and feel that a great opportunity will be missed if quality standards are not at the heart of their website.


----------



## erasmus

Bonhamesque said:


> This is a good point.
> Take for example Ritchie at Kilgour. I think he's only about 36 or 38....(?) but he's regarded as one of the best on the Row.
> He also trained Campbell who he still works closely with. Campbell is about 32 and already an excellent cutter.


++1. Glad to hear he's considered one of the best. My experience would seem to support your assertion. As I described in another thread, Ritchie measured me and then a few months later delivered a virtually perfect forward fitting suit. Front-back balance spot on, sleeve pitch spot on, shoulder drape spot on, collar fit spot on, etc. He basically nailed my pattern and made a few very small adjustments to the jacket at my forward fitting. All in all, I was very pleasantly surprised and fortunate to have him cut my initial suit.


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## Bonhamesque

erasmus said:


> ++1. Glad to hear he's considered one of the best. My experience would seem to support your assertion. As I described in another thread, Ritchie measured me and then a few months later delivered a virtually perfect forward fitting suit. Front-back balance spot on, sleeve pitch spot on, shoulder drape spot on, collar fit spot on, etc. He basically nailed my pattern and made a few very small adjustments to the jacket at my forward fitting. All in all, I was very pleasantly surprised and fortunate to have him cut my initial suit.


He's strange, intense, perhaps even slightly unhinged - never ask him how he is unless you have an hour to spare - but boy does he know his stuff.

To reinforce my earlier point about experience not necessarily meaning quality, I would go as far as to advise potential customers of Kilgour to ask to be measured by him rather than the more experienced cutters that work there.


----------



## medwards

Count Lippe said:


> I have been lucky enough to have a preview of the https://www.SavileRowBespoke.com site after a visit to one of my tailors who belongs to the association...
> 
> 
> 
> medwards said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the update. I do hope they will continue to make use of some of Guy Hills' splendid photography on the new site.
> 
> 
> 
> Count Lippe said:
> 
> 
> 
> As one of the most informed members of this forum (in my humble opinion), I can assure you that I have been told that Mr Hills is the exclusive photographer for Savile Row Bespoke.
> 
> 
> 
> Bonhamesque said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think (and hope) that the criteria that SRB will demand of its members will be that the tailoring firm in question must be one that makes truly bespoke garments in the traditional S Row sense.
> By that I mean that the products that they are selling as 'bespoke' must be cut and stitched by hand and not machine. Each customer has his/her own paper pattern and the process involves at least one baste fitting.
> To me these are the minimum criteria and I hope that by requesting that these standards be met, they are consequently ruling out any possibility that the charlatans and other abusers of the word 'bespoke' can become members.
> I assume this will either be reinforced by an additional label or orb mark/seal to be sewn into the jacket or by a certificate to be displayed inside the appropriate stores and on their web sites. If it is carried out this way, I believe it will benefit both the S Row tailors and the public.
> Potential clients would perhaps be less likely to be romanced by the word 'bespoke' and end up buying a suit believing it be bespoke when in fact it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

In light of the interest in the Savile Row Bespoke Association -- and its soon to be launched website -- I have created a separate thread on this specific topic here.

Added note: The Savile Row Bespoke Association website was subsequently launched on January 30, 2007 and can be accessed at www.savilerowbespoke.com


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## RSS

I've just come from a nice dinner (and drink) at Season's in San Francisco ... I hope that what follows is legible. 

No names ... but tonight I had dinner with a long time presence on Savile Row ... and a bit of Savile Row history came up. Whether or not it will be news to any of you I don't know. But, I'm sitting here thinking ... why not share ... just in case it is. 

In the years shortly after World World II, Anderson & Sheppard suffered a fire which destroyed many (perhaps all)of the firm's patterns. Prior to this time, A&S had many South American clients, and representatives of the firm made regular visits there ... just as they do to the United States today. However, following this fire, A&S made the decision not to continue pursuit of its South American business.


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## Concordia

manton said:


> For instance, in my case, all my best suits (or at least the ones that I think fit the best and look the best) were made by the youngest tailor I have ever used, and one who has never trained on Savile Row, or even with a big tailoring house.


Is Frank really younger than Steven (31, I think), or does he just have more hard miles on him?


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## manton

Concordia said:


> Is Frank really younger than Steven (31, I think), or does he just have more hard miles on him?


Good point, he's older. My mistake.


----------



## BUFFEDCARACENILOVER

Gentlemen,
I've just seen the SRBA website, and all I can say is...these men are not fooling around. I've read, on this forum, about the 'shortcuts' taken by many 'bespoke' tailors, leaving me very disappointed. However, the more I read the SRBA website requirements for what may truly be called bespoke, the wider my smile became. My faith has been restored!


----------



## passingtime

jcusey said:


> I presume DB to be Darren Beaman and TM to be Thomas Mahon. Is there any particular reason why you classify Mahon as a charlatan?


It may be that the issue lies elsewhere. I expect that the Savile Row is looking at the work going to Thomas and see that as work that would otherwise have come to them. There's probably a couple of hundred suits a year they are losing to Thomas alone. If the SRBA is successful in defining who is and isn't Savile Row then they hope some of those customers will become theirs. I think they are mistaken but it might well slow down new customers.


----------



## Bonhamesque

passingtime said:


> It may be that the issue lies elsewhere. I expect that the Savile Row is looking at the work going to Thomas and see that as work that would otherwise have come to them. There's probably a couple of hundred suits a year they are losing to Thomas alone. If the SRBA is successful in defining who is and isn't Savile Row then they hope some of those customers will become theirs. I think they are mistaken but it might well slow down new customers.


I don't think S Row is as bothered as you think they are about business going to Mahon.
It's not exactly going to bankrupt them, besides which they would rather it went to him than people like Rakehell or Lutwyche Bespoke or other abusers of the word bespoke.
In fact Mahon may even qualify as a member...


----------



## passingtime

Bonhamesque said:


> I don't think S Row is as bothered as you think they are about business going to Mahon.
> It's not exactly going to bankrupt them, besides which they would rather it went to him than people like Rakehell or Lutwyche Bespoke or other abusers of the word bespoke.
> In fact Mahon may even qualify as a member...


Since they have removed the location requirement (and even then there is the Scabal link) it would be difficult to see what grounds the SRBA could refuse him, or indeed other ex-Savile Row tailors, on. They would need to meet the construction criteria but I doubt that would be a problem.


----------



## Count Lippe

Yes, I somehow doubt that Henry Poole, Huntsman, Dege & Skinner, Anderson & Sheppard, Gieves & Hawkes et al, have all grouped together due to fear of Mahon and his infrastructure... It seems that it is to clarify the term Bespoke, which has been used and abuse.


----------



## bystander

Count Lippe said:


> Yes, I somehow doubt that Henry Poole, Huntsman, Dege & Skinner, Anderson & Sheppard, Gieves & Hawkes et al, have all grouped together due to fear of Mahon and his infrastructure... It seems that it is to clarify the term Bespoke, which has been used and abuse.


Touche! Point made, Count.


----------



## medwards

I would suggest that the rationale behind the Savile Row Bespoke Association is rather clear. As you will recall, the initial organisation (Savile Row Bespoke Ltd) was set up a few years back by four firms deeply concerned about the escalating rents on Savile Row and their impact, by the challenges in finding quality staff to maintain and support the craft, and by the lack of a clear and unified voice on behalf of Savile Row tailoring. Indeed, participants on this very Forum have long been urging Savile Row firms to join together in a common effort to preserve the Row. Savile Row Bespoke's first efforts were clearly aimed at making an impact on the policy deliberations of the City of Westminster and in designing and supporting a range of apprenticeship programmes to bring skilled workers into the profession. That the array of firms has increased is all to the good. And while public relations and marketing are -- and should be -- essential functions of such an association, I believe their aims are precisely what they state: promoting the art of bespoke tailoring; ensuring quality; protecting intellectual property; developing training initiatives; establishing synergies with weavers, suppliers, and subcontractors; addressing collective problems; and protecting and promoting London as an international capital of men's elegance.


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## medwards

They are seeking to maintain control over the term "Savile Row Bespoke." To do that they have registered -- an consequently own -- a collective trademark "Savile Row Bespoke."


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## 16412

What does this mean 'protecting intellectual property'? To set a standard? Or, to prevent others from useing certain methods?

To set standards- that is good. To prevent others from useing certain methods would degrade tailoring around the world instead of trying to achieve better quality. If it is the first they need it. If it is the latter- take them out and shoot them.


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## RSS

Owning the term Savile Row Bespoke concerns neither setting standards nor controlling methods. _However_, those who own it can require users of the term to set and maintain standards.

On the other hand, I cannot see how anyone can prevent another from using particular methods ... unless somehow a particular method can be patented.

In general, I think this is a good move.

Too bad the term bespoke can't be defined and given some particular protection and enforcement ... on an international level ... or at least in England, Italy and the few other countries where quality tailored items are made.

And I agree with Count Lippe and others ... I don't think Mahon really figures into this.


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## passingtime

RSS said:


> And I agree with Count Lippe and others ... I don't think Mahon really figures into this.


Count Lippe was the one who bought it up!


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## RSS

Goodness ... by the time of post #480 (see below) ... I'd forgotten about the reference to TM being a charlatan. But I do agree with the post below. 


Count Lippe said:


> Yes, I somehow doubt that Henry Poole, Huntsman, Dege & Skinner, Anderson & Sheppard, Gieves & Hawkes et al, have all grouped together due to fear of Mahon and his infrastructure... It seems that it is to clarify the term Bespoke, which has been used and abuse.


*EDIT:* The mind -- or in my case the memory -- is the first thing to go.


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## Count Lippe

*Quality Standards*

In complete agreement with Medwards and RSS - standards within a group can be set, but no one could prevent others outside the group from using the same rules and methods. 

Had Savile Row been a small street in Paris with an equally illustrious history and craft, it would probably have been made in to an 'Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée' of the tailoring world. Due to the discrete nature of the British and of British tailors in particular, the name 'Savile Row and the term 'Bespoke' have been available for anyone to take advantage of - a simple search under 'Savile Row' on Google confirms this. 

Some of you may remember the Times article on Giorgio Armani's 'attack' on Savile Row:
https://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9065-2261673,00.html

I imagine that when you are faced with a number of luxury brands with deep pockets wishing to 'muscle in' on your territory and with MTM businesses liberally using Bespoke to describe their garments, you have to get together and do something about it. Educating potential customers and journalists seems like a good start. As we all know, a business is only as healthy as the industry to which it belongs.

On a macro note, manufacturing in Europe is going through at difficult time. The SRB model of collaboration without consolidation might help preserve Europe's specialist manufacturers who all make our lives so much more enjoyable.


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## bengal-stripe

Just passed through Savile Row, *Richard James bespoke* will be opening soon. He acquired premises on Clifford Street (opposite his store and next to the old A & S shop).

I wonder, if that particular kite will fly.It's one thing to do fully bespoke suits from time to time, it's another to have dedicated premises. Some ten or fifteen years ago, Hackett had a 'bespoke-only' shop on the Row, that didn't last very long.


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## RJman

bengal-stripe said:


> *Richard James bespoke* will be opening soon.


Sigh.

Is he no longer going to use Jim Levett to make his bespoke? Or has he swallowed Jim up?

FWIW, I think Ozwald Boateng has a separate address on the Row for his bespoke, apart from his Vigo St premises. Not sure what he did there though.


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## 16412

Isn't there a blue & gold SR label to seperate the real from the fake bespoke tailors suits?

Not anybody can put this label on.


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## RSS

WA said:


> Isn't there a blue & gold SR label to seperate the real from the fake bespoke tailors suits?
> 
> Not anybody can put this label on.


Unless it's very well hidden ... it's not in my suits, coats, waistcoats and trousers.

Is this part of the new Savile Row Bespoke.

Come to think of it ... isn't there some low end US firm using the name Savile Row ... and Savile Row Bespoke?


----------



## 16412

RSS said:


> Unless it's very well hidden ... it's not in my suits, coats, waistcoats and trousers.
> 
> Is this part of the new Savile Row Bespoke.
> 
> Come to think of it ... isn't there some low end US firm using the name Savile Row ... and Savile Row Bespoke?


When the internet was fairly new and a few Savile Row Bespoke sites were up I did see this blue and gold label. Only those trained on the row could use it if they wanted to.

Anyway, that is what I read a few years ago.


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## RSS

WA ... it's not in the Anderson & Sheppard coat which was completed only this past November ... or in any of my recent Richard Anderson coats/suits. However I did notice that Anderson & Sheppard indicates they are "Savile Row Tailors." 

I do not know if this is due to the A&S association with Savile Row Bespoke ... or because they feel compelled to state so now that they are on Old Burlington Street.


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## RJman

The blue and gold label was associated with The Companions of Savile Row, which is now some phantom in the ether. It was apparently an attempt to designate tailors of skill commensurate to Savile Row, such as Benson & Clegg, and latterly appeared to have expanded to try to include all quality Savile Row and Savile Row quality tailors, as evidenced by its appearance on the Savile Row Style Magazine website.

I don't think most tailors with the ability to use that label actually put it in their garments. I don't know if it actually even had any particular make requirements.


----------



## medwards

RJman said:


> The blue and gold label was associated with The Companions of Savile Row, which is now some phantom in the ether. It was apparently an attempt to designate tailors of skill commensurate to Savile Row, such as Benson & Clegg, and latterly appeared to have expanded to try to include all quality Savile Row and Savile Row quality tailors, as evidenced by its appearance on the Savile Row Style Magazine website.


----------



## RJman

As well as this page with its spotlight on the "SR Collection" including this logo-ed tie...

Surely there must be a better way to do "Best of British"? Of course, the Italians appear to be buying some of the best British makers (aside from bespoke) -- Holliday & Brown, Ballantyne, Drumohr...


----------



## medwards

RJman said:


> FWIW, I think Ozwald Boateng has a separate address on the Row for his bespoke, apart from his Vigo St premises. Not sure what he did there though.


And evidently he will have more time to spend there. Appartently Boateng's role at Givenchy is being scaled back considerably. The creative director for Givenchy Homme since 2003, it looks like he will now simply be a "consultant" to the fashion house.


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## RJman

medwards said:


> And evidently he will have more time to spend there. Appartently Boateng's role at Givenchy is being scaled back considerably. The creative director for Givenchy Homme since 2003, it looks like he will now simply be a "consultant" to the fashion house.


I wonder if RJ is still a design consultant for Dunheel? :devil:


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## Concordia

Speaking of A&S, there is an obituary posted on London Lounge for Brian Russell, an ex-Anderson guy I never met but who was very well regarded.


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## medwards

RJman said:


> FWIW, I think Ozwald Boateng has a separate address on the Row for his bespoke, apart from his Vigo St premises. Not sure what he did there though.


Here's the London Times on Boateng's Savile Row shop as well as some interesting information on his business and future plans:

https://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article1329332.ece


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## medwards

RJman said:


> Edward Sexton www.worldpub.com/2/sexton/ -- world's worst publicity, very surprising for a man who used to employ a New York PR to alert the gossip columns whenever he came into town. -- l'homme-RJ


Edward Sexton clearly has embarked on a renewed public relations effort, well evidenced by his new website: https://www.edwardsexton.co.uk/. While located in Beauchamp Place, he still is a fitting inclusion in a Savile Row discussion. After all "You can take the boy out of the Row, but you can't take the Row out of the boy."


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## Spoonern

*Edward Sexton*

I think youre right about Edward. He played such a key role with Tommy Nutter in transforming the Row in the sixties and seventies, and had a long presence there. In fact I know that he is again instrumental behind the scenes in promoting the Row, participating in the London Cut exhibitions, and generally raising his profile after a long illness.


----------



## son of brummell

I enjoyed Mr. Sexton's website which is a fine mixture of class, fun, and chutzpah.

I particularly enjoyed the background singing of Noel Coward ("A Room with a View").


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## Count Lippe

*Other Savile Row Websites*

It seems that the Anderson & Sheppard website is finally up and running, although it is missing the 'Visit Our Workrooms', which is still 'coming soon'...

Beautiful photographs.


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## medwards

Christopher Simon Sykes' photographs are indeed quite stunning...as is the very idea of A&S's evolving presence on the Internet. 

https://www.anderson-sheppard.co.uk/


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## medwards

*Welsh & Jefferies Website*

Long a holdout from cyberspace, the venerable Welsh and Jefferies finally has a website underconstruction. The preliminary site can be found here. The first post in this thread has been updated to reflect this as well.


----------



## Count Lippe

*Malcolm Plews*

I was told today, by the most reliable source, that there are two Cutters who are masters at cutting for women and far above any other competition. One is obvious - Edward Sexton - but the other surprised me as he mentioned Malcolm Plews of Welsh and Jeffries!

Does anyone else know about Malcolm Plews' work for women?


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## dopey

A Dege & Skinner apprentice recently won the Golden Shears Award. Her entry was a woman's suit. You can see more here and on their and get the pdf of the news release .


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## Concordia

Count Lippe said:


> Does anyone else know about Malcolm Plews' work for women?


My wife had a car coat made at Dege some 12 years back or more. She worked out what she wanted with Debbie Fairman, who was doing her best to get along in a very male work environment, and whom my wife liked a lot. When I recently looked at the inner label, however, it had "MP" after the serial number, indicating that Malcolm was the cutter in charge. Perhaps he was "of counsel" on this particular project.

BTW, Thomas Mahon spoke well of Malcolm's work for women on the English Cut website.


----------



## Frog in Suit

This is my first post and I would like to start by expressing my admiration for the encyclopaedic knowledge demonstrated by many of he participants of this forum.

As a brief introduction, I have had about five suits, plus jackets and trousers, made by a Savile Row firm (actually situated away from the Row proper, but a part of that universe). That was about ten or fifteen years ago. The prices, alas, have gone up enormously, but I would like to form a new connection with a tailoring firm. The one I used then appears to have changed completely and I am looking for someone else. My tastes are towards the traditional (braces, waistcoats, long-lasting garments, not "super-numbered" cloths).

I have done some research and selected a few candidates, based on current prices and mentions in the Richard Walker book The Savile Row Story, published in 1988, as I would prefer to deal with a well-established firm. The selection is somewhat haphazard, given the limited information I can get, but this is the best I can do on my own. I have called most of the firms in question to check their prices. They all profess to be able to make a suit respecting the customer's wishes and peculiar tastes. The house styles, in as much as they exist, seem to tend towards "a bit of waist", "somewhat flared skirts", in a generally traditional way. The prices (two piece, VAT included) range between £ 1,950 and £ 2,225. I live in Paris, so travelling to London for fittings is a feasible proposition.
The firms are, in alphabetical order:
- Benson & Clegg (Mr. Ken Austin), 9 Piccadilly Arcade.
- Jarvis & Hamilton (they share premises with L.G. Wilkinson. Joce & Co., who used to share the same address, do not seem to exist anymore), 11 St. George's Street.
- Jones, Chalk & Dawson, 6, Sackville Street. (They incorporate Meyer & Mortimer, as well as Ward & Kruger.)
- L.G. Wilkinson, 11 St. George's Street. (Cf. Jarvis & Hamilton above)
- John Lester, within Harvie & Hudson on Jermyn Street.

For what it's worth, I gather that both Benson & Clegg and Jones, Chalk & Dawson have more than a single cutter/proprietor, while the others appear to be one-man bands. I have read some favourable mentions of both Benson & Clegg and Meyer & Mortimer (Jones Chalk & Dawson) in this and other threads.

Finally, my question, with many thanks for any input you may provide: Does anyone have any direct experience or second-hand knowledge that may help me make an intelligent selection amongst the above? Quality and durability of the garments, conscientiousness of the cutter/tailors, as well as "unflashiness" of style, would be primary considerations. Any negative factual information would also be welcome, in order to avoid making a costly mistake.

Again, thank you.


----------



## medwards

In addition to what appears previously in this thread, you might want to look at this short discussion about Benson & Clegg:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=66369


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## Frog in Suit

Thank you. I had already seen this (I have trawled pretty thoroughly though the relevant threads) and included Benson & Clegg on my short list, partly on the strength of that information.
Thanks again.
Frog in Suit


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## RVL Saratoga

Good evening, FIS

Just to follow up, I was measured by Ken Austin last month. While I haven't received my suit, or even had a fitting, I have to say that the experience was positive. I found Mr. Austin to be thorough and insightful.

Regards,
Robert


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## Frog in Suit

Many thanks for the information. At this stage (I am not going to London until mid-May), I am thinking more of Benson & Clegg or Meyer & Mortimer (aka Jones, Chalk & Dawson or Ward & Kruger), since these are the only two of my list which were mentioned more or less recently on this forum. I remain eager for more information, though.
Best regards,
Frog in Suit


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## medwards

RVL Saratoga said:


> Just to follow up, I was measured by Ken Austin last month. While I haven't received my suit, or even had a fitting, I have to say that the experience was positive. I found Mr. Austin to be thorough and insightful. Regards,
> Robert


A bit more on Benson & Clegg and Mr Austin from Savile Row Style Magazine:


----------



## Frog in Suit

Thank you, Medwads, for your response. I had seen this already, as I have gone back through this forum pretty thoroughly.
I am none the less grateful.
Kind regards,
Frog in Suit.


----------



## Frog in Suit

Literide said:


> Meyer & Mortimer come to NY, though I have no idea the rest of their itinerary. They are highly regarded among the Scottish aristos and officers. Somewhat more reasonable in price than the "big names". Don't know if this is purely a function of their Sackville st address or other factors. They definitly dont spend money on web sites or ads, dont even use email, just faxes. They are making something for me now, I will report back when done.


Good day to you, Sir.
I am also interested in Meyer & Mortimer, among other firms, as I am trying to re-establish a connection with a tailor after some ten or fifteen years' interruption. Are they the same firm as Jones, Chalk & Dawson and Ward & Kruger, or are they only sharing an address? Have they now delivered your suit? Would you care to give me your impressions as to the quality of their work?
Many thanks for any comments or information you may have.
Kind regards,
Frog in Suit.


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## medwards

*The Passing of Lord Weatherill*

It is with sadness that I note the passing of Bernard Weatherill, Speaker of the House of Commons from 1983 to 1992. Many knew him because of his constitutional responsibilities and leadership, but many of those who frequent this Forum know him best because he was -- after all -- a Savile Row tailor. As the Times notes: "His father, Bernard, was a tailor and also a Fabian socialist who had once led a tailors' strike. Blacklisted by employers, the elder Bernard set up on his own and built a successful Savile Row business which gained a Royal Warrant. The young Bernard was sent to Malvern College and hoped to go on to university, but his father decided that instead he ought to be apprenticed as a tailor. So for five years he sat crosslegged on the floor and learnt his trade - "I seem to be drawn to sedentary professions," he observed drily on being elected Speaker. Secreted in the finery of the Speaker's uniform he kept a silver thimble given to him by his mother."

He was 86.

https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article1760169.ece


----------



## Frog in Suit

Literide said:


> Meyer & Mortimer come to NY, though I have no idea the rest of their itinerary. They are highly regarded among the Scottish aristos and officers. Somewhat more reasonable in price than the "big names". Don't know if this is purely a function of their Sackville st address or other factors. They definitly dont spend money on web sites or ads, dont even use email, just faxes. They are making something for me now, I will report back when done.


Good day to you, Sir.
I am also interested in Meyer & Mortimer, among other firms, as I am trying to re-establish a connection with a tailor after some ten or fifteen years' interruption. Are they the same firm as Jones, Chalk & Dawson and Ward & Kruger, or are they only sharing an address? Have they now delivered your suit? Would you care to give me your impressions as to the quality of their work?
Many thanks for any comments or information you may have.
Kind regards,
Frog in Suit.


----------



## medwards

*Steven Hitchcock's Shop*

I understand that Steven Hitchcock's shop suffered some severe water damage last week and that it will take him a week or two to get everything back to normal. Inasmuch as his office computer was damaged, he does not have access to email during the day, so it might take him a bit longer to respond to emails. Telephoning might be the best way to contact him.


----------



## medwards

Frog in Suit said:


> I am also interested in Meyer & Mortimer, among other firms, as I am trying to re-establish a connection with a tailor after some ten or fifteen years' interruption. Are they the same firm as Jones, Chalk & Dawson and Ward & Kruger, or are they only sharing an address?


The venerable Meyer & Mortimer (originally Meyer & Sons of Conduit Street) became part of Jones, Chalk & Dawson decades ago. However, the firm dates back to the Regency. Its founder was John Meyer, a German military tailor, who made for Beau Brummell among others. The Mortimer of Meyers & Mortimer was a successful Scots sword-maker and gunsmith. Together they became one of the most noted and successful of military tailors.


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## Frog in Suit

medwards said:


> The venerable Meyer & Mortimer (originally Meyer & Sons of Conduit Street) became part of Jones, Chalk & Dawson decades ago. However, the firm dates back to the Regency. Its founder was John Meyer, a German military tailor, who made for Beau Brummell among others. The Mortimer of Meyers & Mortimer was a successful Scots sword-maker and gunsmith. Together they became one of the most noted and successful of military tailors.


Thank you for your follow-up.
I have actually placed an order with M & M, in May (I showed up with wife and sons in tow, but they were very kind and did not seem to mind!). The cutter (not sure if he is the only one) is Mr. Munday, who travels to the US and France as well. I ordered a DB suit (trousers with braces and turn-ups, coat with six buttons) in a dark grey, charcoal really, glen check (same check as a POW, but no overcheck, if you see what I mean; I apologize for the inaccuracy of my vocabulary). It is a 13 oz from a Smith book, but the selvedge says something like "made for Lesser&#8230;" The idea was to get something which can look fairly formal (dark grey), but not actually "City", i.e., no stripe, but still with texture. It should look good either with a white shirt and quiet tie, or with bold stripes (à la Harvie & Hudson), and any combination in between. I asked for discreet pleating (I don't think they would have suggested that) but they hinted at slanted pockets, which I do not like much, especially on a DB, so I declined. I was wearing a blue blazer with a bit of roping on the shoulders and Mr. Munday said he would not give me any and would make the buttons closer together; I respect his judgment. He was perfectly flexible as to pockets etc&#8230;
As mentioned somewhere else in the forum, Mr. Munday put a broad belt around my upper waist area when taking my measurements (part of their military background, I think). I was told that they incline towards a sharper, stiffer, silhouette, not the A & S "soft" one, which is precisely what I was looking for, given my age and shape.
I have had a first fitting in June. I think it is shaping up well (the trouser line looks good, the waist of the coat is flatteringly high). Mr. Munday undid the seams of the shoulders and made various chalk marks. He seemed pleased with things too. I am going back in September and may or may not do so again in October as Mr. Munday will be travelling to Paris.
So far, I am happy with my choice. Mr. Munday and Mr. Jones, who seems to be in charge of the shop and money aspects, are both very pleasant. The shop is very traditional, with bits of uniforms in process on hangers, books of tartans, ancient warrants, etc&#8230;on the walls. M & M are a largish operation by today's standards, employing, I am told, eleven people in all. They certainly seem busy. I offered to make a deposit, which was accepted&#8230; (I am sure they would have asked, at least on a first order). They have fairly recently begun to accept credit cards, but have no web site. Clearly, Meyer & Mortimer are the "branding" of choice for new customers, probably because of the antiquity and pedigree of the name. Jones Chalk & Dawson and Ward & Kruger both still appear on the shop window however and must be used only now for existing customers.
Thank you for your attention.
Frog in Suit


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## medwards

Thank you, FiS. I do hope you will keep us posted as to your experiences with Meyer & Mortimer. There do not appear to be many of their clients among the members of this Forum so we have had little discussion of their work. Your experience can help rectify that. Thank you.

By the way, it should be noted that Jones, Chalk & Dawson do have a very long and highly regarded history as well...dating back to 1896...with roots even deeper into Savile Row's heritage. Jones, Chalk & Dawson were all employees of the venerable Hawkes (in fact, William Jones was Hawkes' head cutter before the trio set up their own firm).


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## Literide

Frog in Suit said:


> Good day to you, Sir.
> I am also interested in Meyer & Mortimer, among other firms, as I am trying to re-establish a connection with a tailor after some ten or fifteen years' interruption. Are they the same firm as Jones, Chalk & Dawson and Ward & Kruger, or are they only sharing an address? Have they now delivered your suit? Would you care to give me your impressions as to the quality of their work?
> Many thanks for any comments or information you may have.
> Kind regards,
> Frog in Suit.


I recently received a dinner jacket from M&M that is simply smashing. 1 alteration required, a little more room in the chest so I could raise my arms to surrender. Thats an inside joke with military tailors. Fine workmanship, got all my details right, and definitly a british military fit if thats what you like but they can give you some room to move as indicated above.

Very old fashioned operation, strong Scottish and Military tradition. As well as being amalgamated with the Jones, Chalk, Dawson brand, they absorbed Jardine & Sons of Edinburgh at some point.

I would happily get another suit or 2 from them were the US$ exchange rate not so awful at the moment. I worked with Brian Lewis who travels to NY.


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## Frog in Suit

Thank you, Medwards and Literide for your answers.
I shall keep you posted as to the progress of this endeavour. I am going back to London in September for my next fitting, so will have nothing to report until then. 
It appears then that Meyer & Mortimer have at least two cutters (Messrs Lewis and Munday).
I am already mulling a future order with Meyer & Mortimer, along the same lines (DB, etc&#8230: something fairly formal, but not too "City-"or "Office-" like. I may just go for a plain weave in light to mid-grey worsted (boring?), but I know that my natural bend is toward dark, rather than light colours, in heavier weights, and there are some stripes I find irresistible (I only like plain stripes, i.e. white simple stripes on a navy or grey - not black -- background, but am not averse to bold effects, i.e., thickish stripes with some distance between them, stopping of course before one gets into the Al Capone look). Perhaps a faint pin or chalk stripe on a mid or light grey? I shall certainly ask Mr. Munday for advice before I decide. Perhaps someone on the forum might guide me towards a likely source or suggest types of cloth I would not think of on my own&#8230;?
I would also like to get a tweed or tweed-like three piece SB at some point (a windowpane on a grey/green/blue background, perhaps) but shall resist the temptation for the time being. I have such a suit in what I think is a Porter & Harding "Glenroyal" 14 oz (faint blue windowpane on a light grey herringbone: if you look at the P & H site <> it is the one on the lower right or looks very much like it) and I find it very useful.
Then there is the issue of shirts. The same day I went to M & M in May, I placed an order with New & Lingwood who made a (very) few shirts for me in the '80s or early '90s (Sean O'Flynn was in charge then. He now has his own business, although he still cuts N & L's shirts.)&#8230;.This time I have a white poplin shirt already (it was the trial shirt) and have two more on order (one mid-blue with thin white stripes close together and one bold one with red butcher stripes).
Endless temptations vying with limited funds&#8230; 
Please forgive this meandering post.
Frog in Suit.


----------



## Khnelben

*Funny thing ...*

Redwood and Feller of Westminster has used screen shots from the Roetzel book on its website )) of a Brooks Brothers suit ))

Andrey


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## medwards

medwards said:


> I understand that Steven Hitchcock's shop suffered some severe water damage last week and that it will take him a week or two to get everything back to normal. Inasmuch as his office computer was damaged, he does not have access to email during the day, so it might take him a bit longer to respond to emails. Telephoning might be the best way to contact him.


By the way, I see that Steven Hitchcock will be traveling to Washington, DC for the first time this fall.


----------



## RJman

medwards said:


> By the way, I see that Steven Hitchcock will be traveling to Washington, DC for the first time this fall.


Will you be trying him out, Professor? He hasn't appeared to make it to Paris in a long time.


----------



## medwards

No, I am sticking with my current tailor for the long haul...but I thought it was worth mentioning inasmuch as I had posted about the disruption he had encountered previously.


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## RJman

I note that Savile Row Master Tailor Darren Beaman has updated his site...


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## medwards

It appears that the text is essentially the same as it has been for the past year, but the look and navigation are a bit different.


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## Bonhamesque

RJman said:


> I note that Savile Row Master Tailor Darren Beaman has updated his site...


Master. pfffff... :icon_smile_big:


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## medwards

I note from the lastest issue of Savile Row Style Magazine that John Kent is now listed as Kent & Stafford at 16 Savile Row. Unfortunately, still no website.


----------



## RJman

medwards said:


> I note from the lastest issue of Savile Row Style Magazine that John Kent is now listed as Kent & Stafford at 16 Savile Row. Unfortunately, still no website.


But 16 Savile Row is still Norton & Sons' address.

It's not Kent & Lachter?


----------



## medwards

Indeed. I believe that the Kent and Lachter partnership is still going strong...and John Kent - as I believe you reminded us - was recently engaged as the head cutter at Norton and had been making US visits for the firm. That's why I was surprised to see the SRSM reference to Kent & _Stafford_.


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## Frog in Suit

*Meyer & Mortimer: second fitting*

To follow up on my previous post, and as promised, I had my second fitting on Wednesday. I tried the trousers first. The buttons were in place. The fit around the waist and the length are good (barely breaking on the shoe). They are braces-only. There was obviously too much cloth between the pleats as the surface appeared to "wave" a bit. (I had requested a shallow forward pleat on each side, as I find it emphasizes the vertical line of the trousers). M. Munday made some chalk marks and noticed also something which I could not see to be corrected on the back.

The coat still had visible white thread all over, but no buttons. The shoulder line seemed fine, although broader than I expected. I mentioned it to Mr. Munday who sort of fiddled with it. It may be that my older suits, from a different tailor, were constructed more softly. There is a definite waist, which can only be an improvement on reality. M. Munday adjusted the sleeve length to around ½ inch. I was wearing a bespoke shirt on purpose, so as to help him get an exact fit. He then made some marks on the side below the arm hole, perhaps to take it in a bit. He then removed the sleeve completely and we were done. The cloth, by the way, is a 13 oz dark grey P.O.W. from Lesser (reference 29792). 

I asked whether he was satisfied and whether he thought the suit could be completed at our next meeting. He said that he thought so. I then decided to start on a new order, in order to minimize my travelling. I need another DB, with the exact same specs as the one already in progress, but in a distinguishably lighter grey. At my request, we started on heavier weights (14 oz.), could not find exactly what I had in mind and moved down the weight scale. Messrs Jones and Munday showed me some books from Lesser, Scabal, and others. A Fresco in 14 oz. was produced, but I really wanted a worsted so I finally settled on another Lesser, a 12/13 oz. pick & pick (reference 3901 - NB: I may be confusing the two reference numbers --), in a lighter grey clearly different from my previous order, but not light enough to become too informal.

Mr. Munday will be travelling to Paris at the end of October and the baste for the new order as well as the final fitting for the previous one will take place there, He travels to Paris four times a year and has British as well as French customers. I expressed an interest in heavyweight tweeds and we spent a few very pleasant - at least for me - minutes looking at some mouth-watering books from J.G. Hardy and Porter & Harding. Of course, I want one of everything, but must restrain myself, especially since my urban lifestyle and global warming make them pretty impractical. Alas!
Before going to Sackville Street, I had gone by New & Lingwood to pick up a couple of bespoke shirts which were waiting for me and I could not resist ordering two more&#8230;
I then proceeded to the national Gallery, where I had arranged to meet two friends. After a light lunch, we spent an hour or two at the Dutch Portraits from the age of Rembrandt and Frans Hals. Then back to Paris on the Eurostar. All in all, a very satisfactory day.

Frog in Suit


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## medwards

Thank you, FiS. A photo of two when your suit is completed would be greatly appreciated. As you know, we have not had too many M&M customers participating in this Forum. Your insights help fill a void.


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## Frog in Suit

Will do, in late October/early November.
Best regards,
Frog in Suit


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## Frog in Suit

I forgot to mention two things in my earlier post:
-While at M & M, I noticed a few nice sample blazer buttons, which I don't think I have ever come across before, and was told they were not regimental or anything, therefore available to anyone. I already have a navy blazer, but that got me thinking&#8230;. NO, I do NOT need a new blazer! 
- Mr. Munday showed me a garment in progress, a quite spectacular (I thought) full Inverness cape, with a longer cape than usual, in a dark cloth (whether blue or black, I do not remember), with a hidden fold in the central vent in the back. It is nice to know that people are still having traditional clothes made and, one hopes, wear them on occasion. 
Frog in Suit


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## bystander

*The softly softly approach*

Financial Times - Oct 12 2007
The softly softly approach

Soft tailoring - which does away with the lining to create a lighter, more comfortable garment while retaining the elegant structure of English suiting - is catching on slowly on Savile Row....

https://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/21dcc356-7864-11dc-8e4c-0000779fd2ac.html


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## Concordia

bystander said:


> Financial Times - Oct 12 2007
> The softly softly approach
> 
> Soft tailoring - which does away with the lining to create a lighter, more comfortable garment while retaining the elegant structure of English suiting - is catching on slowly on Savile Row....
> 
> https://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/21dcc356-7864-11dc-8e4c-0000779fd2ac.html


Interesting to see where Kilgour goes with this. Their unlined jackets were not especially less structured than prior designs. I suppose the new batch will have less in the shoulder?


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## medwards

Nicholas Jones to open Savile Row shop?


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## Infrasonic

medwards said:


> Nicholas Jones to open Savile Row shop?


? Can't see anything on the site to that end. They do make use of some of the stock Scabal piccys, so a visit to no. 12 might be a possibility.

Edit; just to add, they have a Facebook group for those that so inclined https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=11562705467


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## medwards

There were some reports earlier this year that he would be opening a store on the Row. There's a short reference in this Daily Mail article from last month...but timing and details remain vague:

https://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/text/print.html?in_article_id=484491&in_page_id=1889


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## Alexander Kabbaz

Someone from there just joined. Perhaps answers will be forthcoming.


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## mancpack

*Nicholas Jones Bespoke*

We saw that there was activity on our web stats from the site and we thought we would investigate what the script was. Thanks for the intrigue. Regarding Savile Row we can't let on too much but there are plans a foot. Yes we can and do use No12 Savile Row, Scabal's base in London, for seeing our clients in London but this is not what we were refering to.

Please fell free to ask any questions about our business.

www.nicholasjonesbespoke.co.uk


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## medwards

I do hope you will keep us posted.


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## mancpack

*Nicholas Jones Bespoke*

Of course but I hope you understand the sensitivity.


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## luk-cha

the huntsman site seems to be down :-(


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## medwards

"_h-huntsman.com expired on 10/18/2007 and is pending renewal or deletion._"


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## luk-cha

medwards said:


> "_h-huntsman.com expired on 10/18/2007 and is pending renewal or deletion._"


not a good sign!


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## 16412

Hopefully Huntsmen is late on a new website.

They make some really nice clothes.


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## luk-cha

WA said:


> Hopefully Huntsmen is late on a new website.
> 
> They make some really nice clothes.


i hope so too, with more picture on this one too!


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## Bonhamesque

bystander said:


> Financial Times - Oct 12 2007
> The softly softly approach
> 
> Soft tailoring - which does away with the lining to create a lighter, more comfortable garment while retaining the elegant structure of English suiting - is catching on slowly on Savile Row....
> 
> https://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/21dcc356-7864-11dc-8e4c-0000779fd2ac.html


Now that I've seen one of these garments in the flesh so to speak, it seems like a bit of a gimmick to me.
The whole point of 'buggy' linings or half-lined jackets is to reduce the weight of the garment and make them cooler to wear but these particular garments have so much coloured piping and bells & whistles inside the jacket that they actually weigh the same as a normal fully lined garment.
Once again with Brandelli, it's style over substance.


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## medwards

medwards said:


> "_h-huntsman.com expired on 10/18/2007 and is pending renewal or deletion._"





WA said:


> Hopefully Huntsmen is late on a new website.
> 
> They make some really nice clothes.


The is again functioning. :icon_smile:


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## Infrasonic

UK citizens only I'm afraid, but chance to win 2.5k MTM Huntsman here..


I


----------



## Frog in Suit

*Meyer & Mortimer 3rd fitting*


I had my third fitting for suit number 1 with Mr. Munday, in Paris this time. The suit looks good and only a couple of adjustments seem necessary: shortening the trouser legs (they seemed fine last time, but were too long this time; I like them JUST breaking on the shoe, not spreading at all)), equalizing the sleeves to show about 1/2 inch of shirt (the left sleeve was fine in that respect, the right one was too long). There also seemed to be a bit too much cloth (a wave sort of effect) on the left chest this time, the right side appearing perfect; this seems due to the innards of the chest (canvas being too short on that side???). All the other dimensions appear perfect (the "too much cloth" effect between the pleats of the trousers as of the last fitting has been fixed).
I was a bit worried last time about the shoulders being too broad, but without the visible white threads, this no longer appears to be the case. This just goes to show that I must trust the tailor's eye, not mine. The fit is now very good visually, elegant even, and not in the least restrictive (I raised my arms to check). I suppose everything was taken apart and then put back together. The lining was present, but there were no buttons yet. It should be finished and ready when I go to London in early December.
I was wearing a 16-ounce DB today and noticed how much lighter the new suit feels, at 13 ounces!
I had the baste fitting for suit number 2: a light grey pick and pick from Lesser (ref 3901, I think), which of course at 12/13 oz. is even lighter in weight. This will be a very useful suit, both in terms of weight and colour, especially for the warmer months (in Western European terms, not in the muggy heat one gets on the East Coast or Midwest). In terms of cut, pockets, etc&#8230;, it will be exactly like the other one.
Looking ahead, I also checked some samples for a future order, in particular two Lesser cloths: a 13/14-ounce (29712 black or almost black with pinstripes about two centimetres apart) and a 16-ounce of the same colour but with the pinstripes only one centimetre apart (29680). The pinstripes are there, but not overwhelmingly so, if you see what I mean. I prefer the first one visually and will probably pick it, but wish it was as heavy as the other one. This will be a double breasted, just like the other two.
Finally, I learned that there are two cutters at Meyer and Mortimer: Mr. Lewis has been there for fifty years, having started at seventeen and Mr. Munday for thirteen years. I find this very comforting.
I hope the above is of interest. One again, please forgive my ignorance of the proper terminology.
Best regards,
Frog in Suit.


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## whistle_blower71

Bonhamesque said:


> Now that I've seen one of these garments in the flesh so to speak, it seems like a bit of a gimmick to me.
> The whole point of 'buggy' linings or half-lined jackets is to reduce the weight of the garment and make them cooler to wear but these particular garments have so much coloured piping and bells & whistles inside the jacket that they actually weigh the same as a normal fully lined garment.
> Once again with Brandelli, it's style over substance.


I thought the whole point of buggy lining was to allow the cloth to breath. That is why I request it on open weave cloths like fresco. The difference in weight is negligble.

*W_B*


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## culverwood

Dunhill - Jermyn Street now offer a bespoke service by appointment. Daniel Williams who was at Benson and Clegg (next door) has joined them. Their prices are from £1850 for a jacket or blazer and £2650 for a two piece suit. The cut I am told is more 'modern' than that of B&C.


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## 16412

Hope somebody post when the next edition is out. 

I believe the next is in November.


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## Bishop of Briggs

medwards said:


> The is again functioning. :icon_smile:


Good new site but I hate flash. Chester Barrie's website is down, hopefully not a sign of yet more troubled times.


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## medwards

*Welsh & Jefferies...*

seems to be still working on their website. But the current slideshow is of some enjoyment:

https://www.welshandjefferies.com/


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## medwards

It seems that they keep making changes...what's up today is much different than yesterday's slideshow.  I guess this is not unusual as they complete construction of the site. With a little luck construction will be completed soon.


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## culverwood

This year’s Time Out - Shops and Services again includes a number of bespoke tailors. I include here very short extracts but it is a fine publication well worth buying if you live or shop in London. I do not know what the price quoted is for but it serves as a guide.

Anderson and Sheppard – One of the most revered SR names …….. successful enough to dictate to customers …. legendry house style 

Charlie Allen – hugely likeable …. close attention to detail …. bespoke from £1200

Gieves & Hawkes – history lesson …. Joe Casey Hayford now at helm ….. timeless style … bespoke from £3000

Henry Poole – special place on London’s sartorial history … bespoke from £2200

John Pearse – godfather of modern British bespoke …. playful eccentricity …. bespoke from £1800

Kilgour – more a fashion house now than a tailor … bespoke from £2900

Mark Powell – bullish attitude …. the man for anyone who wants to be noticed

Mr Eddie and Chris Kerr – A soho institution …. sharp bespoke gear …. bespoke from £1000

Nick Tentis – slightly 60’s silhouettes …. fine fabrics … bespoke from £2000

Oliver Benjamin – distinctive waisted jackets and flat fronted trousers 

Richard Anderson – strictly traditional …. eye catching colour … bespoke from £2700

Richard James – modern … new bespoke shop … bespoke from £2290

Rubinacci – Italy’s most revered tailors … bespoke from £2800

Timothy Everest – irreverence about his clothes … relaxed cut … bespoke from £2000

Welsh and Jeffries – Malcolm Pews is considered by other SR tailors to be one of the street’s finest

William Hunt – flamboyant

Georges Tailors – handmade suits from £550

Huntsman – grand and expensive

Imatz – male and female … from £700

Jonathan Quearney – contemporary

Ozwald Boteng – bright … flashy

The line “If you stand at the North end of Savile Row and look south … the real tailors are those on the left” is a good one.

Sean O’Flynn’s shirts go a good review and all the regular shirt makers are included.


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## Frog in Suit

*Meye & Mortimer suit*

Hereunder some pictures (unless I make a mess of things) of my new suit. I apologize for the poor quality. I shall send more if this works as expected, or rather, hoped, as I lack confidence in my technical abilities.








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## Frog in Suit

*Meyer & mortimer suit, continued*

I can't seem to see my own pictures. Where did I go wrong?
Yours, with a red face,
Frog in Suit :icon_scratch:


----------



## whnay.

take out the url


----------



## nestablifted

*1965 Strickland, Sons, and George, Ltd. 3 piece suit*

Hello all,

This is my first post here after looking for info on this tailor who was once located on 15 Savile. My grandpa gave me this awesome 3 piece suit that he bought in England in 1965 with the intent that I may have it tailored to fit me. I brought it to well known tailor here in Baton Rouge called Martinez. The man there estimated the cost to tailor the suit at $450-$500. This doesn't seem outrageous as they would have to make quite a few adjustments(my grandpa was a bigger man in 1965 than I am now). Just wondering if anyone has any info or opinions about Strickland in general, or about tailoring a nice vintage suit.

Thanks,
Ryan


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## medwards

Strickland and Sons had a long and venerable history, dating back to the late eighteenth century (1780). Its 15 Savile Row address dates from 1887 (though it is now housed with Richard Anderson at Number 13 following acquisition of Strickland & Sons in 2003].

https://www.stricklandandsons.co.uk/index.html


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## RJman

It appears from their new website that Strickland may be being relaunched as some sort of lower-cost line of Richard Anderson's -- certainly the link to "Licensing" possibilities indicates that some sort of diffusion is being planned.

Darren Beaman has updated his website to feature a photo blog with a couple of photos.


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## RJman

Just noticed Chester Barrie's owner Prominent Europe is planning to expand its retail presence and open shops in cities outside London.



Of course, Chester Barrie is no longer affiliated with its manufacturing arm, Cheshire Bespoke, which is owned by Tony Lutwyche.


----------



## medwards

Speaking of changes, Kilgour's ownership has changed hands once again:

https://www.wwd.com/financial/article/122624

and a little bit about its new owner, James Hay:


----------



## erasmus

*W Magazine article on Anda Rowland (Anderson & Sheppard)*


----------



## culverwood

A new issue of Savile Row Style is out I think
https://www.savilerow-style.com/

And the Savile Row Alliance is born! Amazing what effect a TV show can have.


----------



## RJman

My word! I hope this factionalization doesn't lead to violence and street-to-street fighting along Clifford, Maddox and St. George Streets.


----------



## Concordia

It reports that the exodus from Dege continues, Graham Lawless and Robert Bailey having moved across the Row to Davies.


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## 16412

culverwood said:


> A new issue of Savile Row Style is out I think
> https://www.savilerow-style.com/


Glad you posted this link. Three months is enough time to forget about them.


----------



## RJman

Oh boy! From a PR website:
Top Savile Row tailor Johns & Pegg is celebrating its 150th anniversary in the tailoring industry by launching two ready-to-wear collections called Green Label and Purple Label. The Purple Label will offer contemporary designs with slimmer fits, and the Green label will incorporate more traditional tailoring with classic fit jackets and trousers. The new collection will include evening, business and outerwear, with prices starting from £12-£20 for shirts and £85 to £120 for suits.


----------



## whistle_blower71

RJman said:


> Oh boy! From a PR website:
> Top Savile Row tailor Johns & Pegg is celebrating its 150th anniversary in the tailoring industry by launching two ready-to-wear collections called Green Label and Purple Label. The Purple Label will offer contemporary designs with slimmer fits, and the Green label will incorporate more traditional tailoring with classic fit jackets and trousers. The new collection will include evening, business and outerwear, with prices starting from *£12-£20* for shirts and *£85 to £120* for suits.


I believe those are the wholesale prices, will retail around £55 for shirts and £350 for suits.

*W_B*


----------



## medwards

Interesting...particularly iasmuch as Johns & Pegg was incorporated into Davies some time back and little remains of the venerable firm save its name on the letterhead.


----------



## Bonhamesque

RJman said:


> Oh boy! From a PR website:
> Top Savile Row tailor Johns & Pegg is celebrating its 150th anniversary in the tailoring industry by launching two ready-to-wear collections called Green Label and Purple Label. The Purple Label will offer contemporary designs with slimmer fits, and the Green label will incorporate more traditional tailoring with classic fit jackets and trousers. The new collection will include evening, business and outerwear, with prices starting from £12-£20 for shirts and £85 to £120 for suits.





whistle_blower71 said:


> I believe those are the wholesale prices, will retail around £55 for shirts and £350 for suits.
> 
> *W_B*


Can't see why they would list the wholesale prices on a web site?
It seems more likely that someone has missed of a zero or two.


----------



## medwards

*Johns & Pegg Ready to Wear Stories*

https://www.fashionfm.it/english/news/Savile_Row_meets_readytowear_Johns__Pegg_1973.asp

https://www.mpdclick.com/mudpie/action/viewListItem?id=33496&listId=19


----------



## culverwood

More Savile Row Alliance information on Steven Hitchcock's blog
https://savilerow.blogs.com/the_savile_row_blog_spons/

"I am very pleased to inform you that the real Savile Row bespoke tailors most of who are, practical hands on Master Tailors who have worked in the Savile Row community all their lives, have now joined together under one body the Savile Row Alliance and are working as one to keep the true tailoring tradition and craftsmanship alive. We do not sell inferior ready to wear suits from the "Row" that just carry a Savile Row label. There has been four meetings so far which I have attended, I am so pleased that all the tailors feel the same as I do, as I explain in one of my last posts "Savile Row on T.V." I will of course keep you informed of any events coming up with the (S.R.A.) I also look forward to our web-site that will list all the tailors that has been judged to make the Savile Row grade, and a list of the criteria that we all have to meet. We have just had our first write up so please take a look at the (Savilerow) Style Magazine."


----------



## Count Lippe

*SRA & SRB and SR Films - Overall Good News*

To have two operational, competing associations interested in promoting and educating bespoke tailoring must be good news as the message is more important than the politics. Having watched the BBC three part 'documentary / reality show', I just hope that Savile Row can keep its head above in-fighting and name calling and just get on with the job of creating great clothes. If anyone knows the address, please post the websiste address of the new Alliance site - thanks in advance.

It seems that the BBC are covering Savile Row in better detail in the Autumn in a one hour program out of a series of six on 'British Style Genius':

This should be more insighful that the previous offering.

Other films on Savile Row include the YouTube offerings:





and a new Anderson & Sheppard website film, which has just been posted on their website welcome page as 'NEW':
https://www.anderson-sheppard.co.uk/


----------



## whistle_blower71

Bonhamesque said:


> Can't see why they would list the wholesale prices on a web site?
> It seems more likely that someone has missed of a zero or two.


The website was "Drapers" which is aimed at the trade not the public, that is why I thought they were wholesale prices. Thank you for putting me straight and I look forward to seeing Johns & Pegg suits selling for £850 to £1200.

*W_B*


----------



## medwards

*Chester Barrie*

The always vigilant RJman informs us that Chester Barrie has now revamped its . However, while the firm does have a made-to-measure service as well as its ready-to-wear offerings, it does not appear to make bespoke any longer.


----------



## culverwood

The summer edition of savile Row Style is now published.
https://www.savilerow-style.com/


----------



## culverwood

The Autumn edition of Savile Row Style is now published.
https://www.savilerow-style.com/


----------



## medwards

*Richard Anderson brochure*



medwards said:


> *Richard Anderson*: -- former Huntsman cutter who some on this Forum think is now more Huntsman than Huntsman; recently acquired one of the Row's oldest firms, *Strickland and Sons*


An interesting Richard Anderson brochure:


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

medwards said:


> An interesting Richard Anderson brochure:


Mad for plaid!!! :aportnoy:


----------



## Khnelben

*On a side note ...*

I have been to Selfridges to the Evisu booth.

The suits presented there look wonderful - nice fit in the waist, pockets, lining etc.

I know they have been critisized here but the window display on the Row is also nice.

Andrey


----------



## medwards

I see that Patrick Murphy, formerly of *Davies & Son* and *Dege* previous to that, is now the head cutter at *Huntsman*.


----------



## culverwood

The latest edition of Savile Row Style Winter 13 is now publisher at 
https://www.savilerow-style.com/


----------



## medwards

*Two New Tailors Join the Row*

Yes, and there is an interesting feature on two new denizens of Savile Row. Ray Stowers, who had been head of tailoring at Gieves and Hawkes for a while, has apparently joined with Savile Row veterans Brian Pusey and Brian Jeffrey to acquire the business and premises of James Levett, at Number 13 Savile Row, who has now retired. I believe the firm is now named *Stowers Bespoke*. The same building also now houses newcomer Peter Potkansky, who is crafting bespoke wear for both gentlemen and ladies: *Potkansky Couture.*


----------



## ToryBoy

medwards said:


> Ray Stowers, who had been head of tailoring at Gieves and Hawkes for a while, has apparently joined with Savile Row veterans Brian Pusey and Brian Jeffrey to acquire the business and premises of James Levett, at Number 13 Savile Row, who has now retired. I believe the firm is now named *Stowers Bespoke*.


That is correct. Stowers Bespoke started out in Liberty (a department store not far from the Row) and they will still remain there and but be HQed on The Row.


----------



## Winot

Steven Hitchcock's lease is coming to an end in New Burlington St and he will be returning to the Row (No. 13) in Jan 09.


----------



## medwards

No 13 will be a very busy place!


----------



## Leon

medwards said:


> No 13 will be a very busy place!


The basement of No. 13 is rammed.

Leon


----------



## Leon

medwards said:


> Yes, and there is an interesting feature on two new denizens of Savile Row. Ray Stowers, who had been head of tailoring at Gieves and Hawkes for a while, has apparently joined with Savile Row veterans Brian Pusey and Brian Jeffrey to acquire the business and premises of James Levett, at Number 13 Savile Row, who has now retired.[/B]


They have a website:

Leon


----------



## medwards

Yes, I had added it to the very first post in this thread last month.


----------



## windsor

Thank you Medwards for compiling and presenting this information. Thanks also to RJman and others who contributed such interesting material. You gentlemen are providing advanced classes in the sartorial arts, and I know this Forum reader really appreciates this opportunity for reading this information which is found nowhere else.


----------



## Braniac

Yes it is very much appreciated, especially for new forum members like myself! 

I must admit I am getting worried about the viability of the businesses on Savile Row, and the new entrants. Rents are astronomical, turnover is relatively low (if individuals like Boateng are making revenues of around GBP10 million I wonder how the others are doing) and the industry is very susceptible to the current crisis.

Most of the sole proprietors on Savile Row make the best clothing rather than the ones owned by foreign mammoth firms, but in this day and age scale and a variation of price points from RTW to bespoke seems to be the name of the game. 

Hence, I notice Kilgour's recent expansion to become a designer brand since the entrance of the Dubai shareholders (much like Richard James et al). Its a clever and, I would argue, necessary move. Brands or trademarks can be franchised and can generate eminently more scaleable returns. But of course, quality begins to suffer...

Its sad to say that the smaller tailors are at a limit when it comes to the number of bespoke suits they can make on their premises, and revenues will always be constrained.

Apologies for the first post yarn, just my two pence. Thanks very much for keeping us updated once again!


----------



## Leon

medwards said:


> Yes, I had added it to the very first post in this thread last month.


Ah. Mea culpa. I hadn't looked at the first page of this thread for years. But you have a typo there with 'Hardie'.

Leon


----------



## medwards

Thank you, Leon. The correction has been made.


----------



## ToryBoy

Braniac said:


> if individuals like Boateng are making revenues of around GBP10 million I wonder how the others are doing) and the industry is very susceptible to the current crisis.


Boateng does work away from the OB brand as well - Givenchy role, House of Boateng, etc. I am sure Givenchy pay him well.

I do not see Ozwald Boateng as a Savile Row tailor, but a designer; I would compare the brand to the Tom Ford brand rather then Huntsman.


----------



## medwards

ToryBoy said:


> Boateng does work away from the OB brand as well - Givenchy role, House of Boateng, etc. I am sure Givenchy pay him well.


I was under the impression that Boateng's role at Givinchy was scaled back considerably in January of 2007 and that they parted company after the Spring 2007 collection.


----------



## ToryBoy

medwards said:


> I was under the impression that Boateng's role at Givinchy was scaled back considerably in January of 2007 and that they parted company after the Spring 2007 collection.


That is true, but how many 0's do you think he got paid during the time and although he has no direct role in the company now, he probably still gets paid for work being linked with him between 2003 and 2007.

I would be surprised, if he does not get paid a percentage of the revenue from the men's range, at for a few years.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

While you may be correct, Boateng should be _paying_ Givinchy for the men's clothing he designed for them during those years.


----------



## Braniac

ToryBoy: I completely agree with you, but i think we have to look at the bigger picture.

The ultimate aim for Boateng is to become a recognised luxury brand worldwide. Those can be leveraged and franchised. Most companies under which designer labels reside are merely holding companies for the brand - which is then "leased out" across a variety of product classes - they dont own anything. Coke is just a secret formula at the end of the day. 

In a sweeping statement, I would say most designer labels make most of their money from perfume - brand experiences in a bottle. Perceptions perpetuated by a lifestyle created by advertising and stores for the very rich that do not generate any profit. Its all to sell cologne and leather goods. I doubt any of the luxury designer labels makes their money from clothing (save brands like Ralph Lauren that have managed to transcend class divides whilst retaining appeal to all).

So quite right, Tom Ford and Boateng are very much similar. Regardless of the controversy they generate they are very astute businessmen who know how to work the industry. The very idea of an Ozwald Boateng suit means something extremely exclusive and inaccessible - it has become part of the British vernacular. No guesses as to why he started selling womens perfume - he's essentially distilled that perception into a bottle. 

As an example - Anderson and Sheppard may be first class tailors- but their business approach will only take them so far. Which may be a good thing - because once you start messing around with licensing and franchising, the inherent quality and uniqueness of the suits suffer. 

And money isnt everything 

Apologes for lengthy post number 2!


----------



## Bespoke Gent

has anyone here had a suit made by Ozwald Boateng?

I know he's not exactly AAAC traditional tailor, heritage or 'trad' in anyway, but still, they do look great from what I've seen.


----------



## RJman

Braniac said:


> Hence, I notice *Kilgour's recent expansion to become a designer brand since the entrance of the Dubai shareholders *(much like Richard James et al). Its a clever and, I would argue, necessary move. Brands or trademarks can be franchised and can generate eminently more scaleable returns. But of course, quality begins to suffer...
> 
> Its sad to say that the smaller tailors are at a limit when it comes to the number of bespoke suits they can make on their premises, and revenues will always be constrained.
> 
> Apologies for the first post yarn, just my two pence. Thanks very much for keeping us updated once again!


Kilgour had revamped to become a designer brand since much before that. It has sold RTW for a long time and brought in Carlo Brandelli, who made a name designing Mod-inspired clothing, as a designer six or seven years ago. It really took a turn when it underwent a management buyout of sorts four years ago by a couple of people (Brandelli included) and shortened its name just to "Kilgour". That's when it renovated its shop and started really trying to push a RTW collection with a strong design vision. As you say, it's an important step in pushing for survival. Certain larger houses only have 5% of their business in bespoke, the rest in RTW or whatever. Kilgour is clearly aiming to become a designer brand like Prada or what have you, although it is also trying to keep its bespoke alive. It's made another canny step earlier when it launched an intermediate bespoke service that was cut in SR, made in Shanghai, and finished on the Row. By all accounts, it's good stuff, although increasingly expensive.

RJ and Boateng raised the profile of the Row and may have brought a broader category of people to the Row but they also have led us to the realization that survival may mean the subsistence of bespoke as a loss leader for a designer label. I believe the flagship shops of major designers are often loss leaders for brand profile, and that they survive based on licenses for things like perfume, watches or eyewear. I would bet money that this is Tom Ford's model. SR tailors are now on a very expensive street and are not in general selling other products at other outlets to subsidize their presence.

Long story short, get it now, because it's either going to get extinct or get rarer and exponentially more expensive.



ToryBoy said:


> Boateng does work away from the OB brand as well - Givenchy role, House of Boateng, etc. I am sure Givenchy pay him well.
> 
> I do not see Ozwald Boateng as a Savile Row tailor, but a designer; I would compare the brand to the Tom Ford brand rather then Huntsman.





Mr. Chatterbox said:


> While you may be correct, Boateng should be _paying_ Givinchy for the men's clothing he designed for them during those years.


The snark is strong with this one. Perhaps I should leave this forum to him.



Braniac said:


> ToryBoy: I completely agree with you, but i think we have to look at the bigger picture.
> 
> The ultimate aim for Boateng is to become a recognised luxury brand worldwide. Those can be leveraged and franchised. Most companies under which designer labels reside are merely holding companies for the brand - which is then "leased out" across a variety of product classes - they dont own anything. Coke is just a secret formula at the end of the day.
> 
> In a sweeping statement, I would say most designer labels make most of their money from perfume - brand experiences in a bottle. Perceptions perpetuated by a lifestyle created by advertising and stores for the very rich that do not generate any profit. Its all to sell cologne and leather goods. I doubt any of the luxury designer labels makes their money from clothing (save brands like Ralph Lauren that have managed to transcend class divides whilst retaining appeal to all).
> 
> So quite right, Tom Ford and Boateng are very much similar. Regardless of the controversy they generate they are very astute businessmen who know how to work the industry. The very idea of an Ozwald Boateng suit means something extremely exclusive and inaccessible - it has become part of the British vernacular. No guesses as to why he started selling womens perfume - he's essentially distilled that perception into a bottle.
> 
> As an example - Anderson and Sheppard may be first class tailors- but their business approach will only take them so far. Which may be a good thing - because once you start messing around with licensing and franchising, the inherent quality and uniqueness of the suits suffer.
> 
> And money isnt everything
> 
> Apologes for lengthy post number 2!





Bespoke Gent said:


> has anyone here had a suit made by Ozwald Boateng?
> 
> I know he's not exactly AAAC traditional tailor, heritage or 'trad' in anyway, but *still, they do look great from what I've seen*.


Have you ever seen a *bespoke *Boateng suit?


----------



## medwards

RJman said:


> Kilgour had revamped to become a designer brand since much before that. It has sold RTW for a long time


Indeed, the last ready-to-wear suit that I purchased had a Kilgour (albeit Kilgour, French, Stanbury) label inside. That was in 1985 or 86. In those days KFS had a longstanding licensing agreement with Barney's New York. I believe that specific arrangement ended around 2001.


----------



## RJman

medwards said:


> Indeed, the last ready-to-wear suit that I purchased had a Kilgour (albeit Kilgour, French, Stanbury) label inside. That was in 1985 or 86. In those days KFS had a longstanding licensing agreement with Barney's New York. I believe that specific arrangement ended around 2001.


And I just bought a KFS NOS pair of trousers made under that license! (less than $20 and neat pattern).


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

RJman said:


> The snark is strong with this one. Perhaps I should leave this forum to him.


You like le Boateng? No snark; simple candor. What else does a man of my modest opinions have to offer? :icon_smile:


----------



## ToryBoy

I do not have a problem with what OB does, I just do not see him as a tailor. He has done really well and good luck to him. 

Savile Row is changing, G&H have been selling RTW since the 1920's but now a lot of them have a RTW range; even the likes of Huntsman and the new Huntsman, Richard Anderson have a RTW range. 

Let's me honest, how many of us could spend £3k on a suit, most of us need at least 3 suits for work, so £9k. A lot of people may only one bespoke suit and the best way to keep the customer is to have a more price-friendly ranges, RTW and MTM. Despite what people say about RTW and MTM, they are not bad. G&H and Huntsman offer full-canvas RTW and I think RA does as well.


----------



## Joe Frances

Word from London is that Fallon & Harvey have gone into Receivership as of last week.


----------



## newtrane

Can someone please confirm / deny this?

Thanks.


----------



## outrigger

Andrew Ramroop of Maurice Sedwell has been made an OBE in the New Years Honours list. For services to the Fashion Industry tailoring and training.


----------



## medwards

Yes, indeed. A separate thread on this award was started on New Year's eve:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=90016


----------



## Opera Buff

*Andrew J Musson Ltd - Lincoln*

I'm currently having my first bespoke suit made by Mr Andrew Musson of Lincoln who was formerly head cutter at Davies and Son, Savile Row. Only had first basted fitting yet but so far I am very impressed with what I have seen and the level of service provided. Has anyone else been a client of Mr Musson's ? I would love to hear your views.


----------



## chrstc

Opera Buff said:


> I'm currently having my first bespoke suit made by Mr Andrew Musson of Lincoln who was formerly head cutter at Davies and Son, Savile Row. Only had first basted fitting yet but so far I am very impressed with what I have seen and the level of service provided. Has anyone else been a client of Mr Musson's ? I would love to hear your views.


Hello,
There's a mention of Mr Musson whilst at Davies here:

https://www.bownsbespoke.com/daviesandson.htm

Hope this is of some interest anyway!

Chris.


----------



## Opera Buff

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> There's a mention of Mr Musson whilst at Davies here:
> 
> https://www.bownsbespoke.com/daviesandson.htm
> 
> Hope this is of some interest anyway!
> 
> Chris.


Hi chrstc - It was this article that first drew him to my attention. Hopefully I'll be as happy with the finished suit as Mr Bown !


----------



## son of brummell

Opera Buff said:


> I'm currently having my first bespoke suit made by Mr Andrew Musson of Lincoln who was formerly head cutter at Davies and Son, Savile Row. Only had first basted fitting yet but so far I am very impressed with what I have seen and the level of service provided. Has anyone else been a client of Mr Musson's ? I would love to hear your views.


When Andrew was with Davies he often accompanied Alan Bennett on the New York visits. Alan was my tailor, and Andrew assisted.

Andrew was always pleasant and respectful.

I have the highest opinion of Alan Bennett and Davies, therefore, I would patronize Andrew Musson with confidence. He had excellent experience at Davies.


----------



## Opera Buff

son of brummell said:


> When Andrew was with Davies he often accompanied Alan Bennett on the New York visits. Alan was my tailor, and Andrew assisted.
> 
> Andrew was always pleasant and respectful.
> 
> I have the highest opinion of Alan Bennett and Davies, therefore, I would patronize Andrew Musson with confidence. He had excellent experience at Davies.


Thanks for your reply


----------



## culverwood

The Spring edition of Savile Row Style is now published at


----------



## medwards

*Stuart Lamprell*


----------



## chrstc

Hello,

The summer 2009 edition of Savile Row Style is now available to read online:



Of particular interest is the article on the new Tautz RTW line from Norton and Sons simply because, according to Mr. Grant, the prices are only to be marginally cheaper than the Norton bespoke line. I wonder whether this will prove to be a good business decision or not?

Chris.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

WA said:


> William Westmancott - By Appointment only 9-10 Savile Row London W1
> 
> https://www.williamwestmancott.com/index.php
> 
> Anyone been here before? Not sure anybody has written anything here before about them.


I believe Mr Westmancott's venture as Savile Row's most expensive tailor has now come to an end.


----------



## medwards

Mr. Westmancott is a member of this Forum. I did email him several weeks back regarding reports that he was ceasing his bespoke business, but to date I have not heard back from him.


----------



## ade2504

*Outside of London*

There is a company based north of London in Birmingham and Leamington Spa names "Clements & Church". They are an award winning tailors that specialise in Yorkshire worsted wools. (www.clementsandchurch.co.uk)


----------



## 16412

https://www.savilerow-style.com/

Don't want to forget these people.


----------



## culverwood

Sad news from Sunday Times about Douglas Hayward going into administration.
https://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article6638934.ece


----------



## andreyb

culverwood said:


> Sad news from Sunday Times about Douglas Hayward going into administration.
> https://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article6638934.ece


Sad news indeed... 

I just finished reading a story about him written by James Sherwood for "The Rake". What a tailor! What a character!

BTW, here is web-site of his company: www.douglashayward.co.uk/ (not sure this has been mentioned before).

Andrey


----------



## chrstc

Hello,

The latest edition of Savile Row Style is online. Sad news that John Kent will not be returning to work after his long illness.

www.savilerow-style.com

Chris.


----------



## ToryBoy

Meyer & Mortimer's website is missing from the list on page one, https://www.meyerandmortimer.co.uk


----------



## medwards

Thank you. Meyer & Mortimer did not have a website when the list was orginally compiled (as was noted in the introductory paragraph). Now that they have established such a site, they have been included in the listing. Thank you for bringing this new site to our attention.


----------



## uman

*Savile Rogues*

I recently came across this interesting article in the last issue of _Intelligent Life_ (Summer 2009) by the ECONOMIST: https://www.moreintelligentlife.com/content/michael-bywater/savile-rogues-londons-rakish-tailors

It talks about five London tailors who apparently stray from Savile Row's strict standards of style, while respecting its quality benchmark, of which Spencer Hart is well-known and covered extensively in this thread, and so is John Pearse and Mark Powell. The other two are:

*Sir Tom Baker:* www.tombakerlondon.com (very rogue indeed)
*Jonathan Quearney: *

The article has some good pictures and it's worth reading.


----------



## culverwood

Savile Row Style Winter edition is now published https://www.savilerow-style.com/


----------



## archduke

uman said:


> I recently came across this interesting article in the last issue of _Intelligent Life_ (Summer 2009) by the ECONOMIST: https://www.moreintelligentlife.com/content/michael-bywater/savile-rogues-londons-rakish-tailors
> 
> It talks about five London tailors who apparently stray from Savile Row's strict standards of style, while respecting its quality benchmark, of which Spencer Hart is well-known and covered extensively in this thread, and so is John Pearse and Mark Powell. The other two are:
> 
> *Sir Tom Baker:* www.tombakerlondon.com (very rogue indeed)
> *Jonathan Quearney: *
> 
> The article has some good pictures and it's worth reading.


I love the blue suit shown in the article. But which good SR tailor could not do that?
Sorry but you cannot put a 'sir' in front of your name unless you have really earned it.
I would like to know how much hand work, how much experience before commimg to 'rogues'.


----------



## medwards

medwards said:


> Mr. Westmancott is a member of this Forum. I did email him several weeks back regarding reports that he was ceasing his bespoke business, but to date I have not heard back from him.


_Dear Mr. Edwards,

May I apologise for the length of time it has taken to reply to your message.

Sadly in December 2008 I could no longer afford to keep running my tailoring business. Regrettably, I had to cease trading and file for bankruptcy.

The website remained, but the business was closed.

Over the past year, I have been working in the costume making field and going back to being an actual craftsman, cutting, fitting and making clothes.

With my current finances being more solid I have made in roads to restarting my business. It will be a far more simple and slow business model where I will be doing all the work myself, selling for a reasonable price and making as little as 24 suits a year.

I will be using the facilities at Holland and Sherry on Savile Row to meet, greet and fit my customers and should be up and running in the next two weeks.

My website is being updated with my new contact details and in the meantime the email is working.

I hope this answers your question and keeps you ahead of the tailoring world news.

With my kindest regards,

William Westmancott_


----------



## medwards

I have received another message from Mr Westmancott, who informs me that he will not -- after all -- be using the facilities at Holland & Sherry. For additional information, I would suggest contacting Mr Westmancott directly.


----------



## culverwood

The Savile Row Style Spring edition is now published at
https://www.savilerow-style.com/


----------



## chrstc

Hello,

The newest edition of Savile Row Style is now online.



Chris.


----------



## medwards

*New Huntsman Website*

Huntsman has now re-fashioned its website:


----------



## MikeDT

medwards said:


> Huntsman has now re-fashioned its website:


"This website requires the Adobe Flash player in order to function."

One thinks they need to get it 're-fashioned' again. When will these site designers learn that not everyone has Adobe's flawed Flash thing?


----------



## andreyb

Last week Mr Lachter told me that:



> Just to let you know, at the end of next week, our new address will be 13 New Burlington Street, London, W1S 3BG.


The most exciting part is "our" -- meaning that Mr Kent is finally fully recovered and back to business!

Given that I received this message 11 days ago, "end of next week" is just about now. Sadly, I don't live in London, so can't go in and greet the newcomers (pun intended) myself...

Andrey


----------



## culverwood

The Autumn edition of Savile Row Style is at


----------



## medwards

And James Sherwood's new book on Savile Row:

https://james-sherwood.com/diary/2010/08/savile-row-advance-copy-august-2010/


----------



## medwards

Good news indeed, Andrey. John Kent was certainly missed during his two-year absence...and this partnership with Terry Haste as well as Stephen Lachter should be a notable one. Alas, no website as of yet. 

Kent Haste & Lachter
13 New Burlington Street
London W1S 3BG
Tel 020 7734 1433


----------



## andreyb

medwards said:


> Good news indeed, Andrey. John Kent was certainly missed during his two-year absence...and this partnership with Terry Haste as well as Stephen Lachter should be a notable one. Alas, no website as of yet.


As an [admittedly non-adequate] substitute for the lack of web-site, a few photos from outside and inside of new shop:

Andrey


----------



## andreyb

Winter 2010 edition of "Savile Row Style" is online: https://www.savilerow-style.com/

Andrey


----------



## chrstc

Hello,

The new edition of Savile Row Style is now online.

https://www.savilerow-style.com/

Chris.


----------



## chrstc

Hello,

The latest edition of Savile Row Style is online now at the usual address.

Chris.


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## culverwood

The latest edition of Savile Row Style - Autumn 2011 is now online.

https://www.savilerow-style.com/


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## chrstc

Winter 2011 edition of Savile Row Style now available

https://www.savilerow-style.com

Chris.


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## andreyb

Kent, Haste & Lachter now have a web-site: https://kenthastelachter.com/

Andrey


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## chrstc

The latest e-edition of Savile Row Style is available at the usual address:

www.savilerow-style.com

Chris.


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## chrstc

The latest, and possibly last, edition of Savile Row Style magazine is now online. For all those who have enjoyed reading it over the last few years please make your voices heard and email the editor, Marie Scott,with your messages of support-the magazine and e-edition fill a unique niche in the market and those of us who enjoy good journalism and interesting articles on the finer things in life would be much the poorer without it.

www.savilerow-style.com

Chris.


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## chrstc

Another online edition of Savile Row Style now available. Thanks to everyone who has supported its continued production.

Chris.


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## culverwood

Well it made it to issue 30!


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## Frog in Suit

It appear that Mr Malcolm Plews is no longer associated with Welsh & Jefferies. He is now to be found at 6 Sackville Street, in Meyer & Mortimer's premises, but retains his warrant as military tailor to the Prince of Wales.
Frog in Suit


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