# Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness



## AZTEC (May 11, 2005)

These days it seems everyone loves to hate america, (and I'm all too aware of samuel johnson's sentiment that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel) but aren't these some of the most moving and beautiful political words ever written? I never get tired of rereading them:

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.*

AZTEC

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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

They are indeed beautiful; Mr Jefferson was gifted with rhetorical fantasy.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote: These days it seems everyone loves to hate america


 But things are often not what they seem.

Perhaps "seems" in this case is driven by the 'elite' media whose footsoldiers, in a recent study, fall by a factor of 81% on one side of the political divide?

And yes, those are some beautiful, timeless words.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

They're wonderful. And I think that some in Congress (OK, all of them) should spend a little time thinking about what they really mean.

CT

Fabricati diem, pvnc. (loose translation, To Serve and Protect) -- Sign above the door of the City Watch House, Ankh-Morpork.


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## ReppStripe (Dec 30, 2005)

Amen, Aztec. Words that changed the world. "...deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." 

Thank you for the post Aztec.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AZTEC_
> 
> These days it seems everyone loves to hate america...


This , by Michael Mandelbaum, may be of interest to you, as it posits some explanatons for this phenomenon.

It is ironic that you quote Johnson, who was vehement in his opposition to American independence, and who also said "I am willing to love all mankind, except an American".

Anecdotally, I encounter far less negative commentary about the US now than I did 5 or 10 years ago. I am not sure whether this reflects the different circles that I move in, or whether public opinion has changed, but I believe it to be the latter.

Aus_MD


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Beautiful and stirring words indeed. Although I've never been sure what "happiness" actually covers here. As for "self-evident", is anything self-evident? Stirring words all the same, and politically efficient: "in hoc signo vinces". The French were less ambitious: the "natural" rights enshrined in the Republic were "freedom, property, security and the right to resist oppression". Rather dull compared with the pursuit of happiness!

I like Churchill's "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried".


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> Beautiful and stirring words indeed. Although I've never been sure what "happiness" actually covers here. As for "self-evident", is anything self-evident? Stirring words all the same, and politically efficient: "in hoc signo vinces". The French were less ambitious: the "natural" rights enshrined in the Republic were "freedom, property, security and the right to resist oppression". Rather dull compared with the pursuit of happiness!
> 
> I like Churchill's "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried".


If I recall correctly, "property" was in an earlier draft of the Declaration, only to be replaced by "happiness". I'll have to check on this.

Edit: has more information.

Regards,

Charles

https://bostonhistory.typepad.com


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

From the late HST, writing in 1972, but still a fun quote three decades later:

"This may be is the year when we finally come face to face with ourselves; finally just lay back and say it â€" that we are really just a nation of 220 million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns, and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.

The tragedy of all this is that George McGovern, for all his imprecise talk about new politics and 'honesty in government,' is one of the few men who've run for President of the United States who really understands what a fantastic monument to all the best instincts of the human race this country might have been, if we could have kept it out of the hands of greedy little hustlers like Richard Nixon.

McGovern made some stupid mistakes, espoused some wrong-headed opinions, but in context they seem almost frivolous compared to the things Richard Nixon does every day of his life, on purpose, as a matter of policy and a perfect expression of everything he stands for.

Jesus! Where will it end? How low do you have to stoop in this country to become President?"

_Mahalo_, Doc.

DD


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

I recall that the 'pursuit of happiness' is thought to have refered to choosing your path in life. I.e., no class system which would prevent you from picking job/wife/residence/etc. Of course, since then, people seem to have forgotten that the right is to pursue happiness, not to have it.

CT


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> . . . . I've never been sure what "happiness" actually covers here. . . .


In the Lockean tradition followed in late colonial times by, among others, men who became the founders of the Republic, "pursuit of happiness" was not infrequently employed to speak of the peaceful, honest acquisition of money and other property. As bosthist pointed out, an earlier draft of the Declaration showed the connection more clearly, if less eloquently.

(Who would have thought that education and a previous career in history could prove so useful in an online forum for men's clothing?)


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> . . . . the 'elite' media whose footsoldiers, in a recent study, fall by a factor of 81% on one side of the political divide . . . .


Perhaps this phenomenon is moving toward equilibrium, for I remember reading in _The Wilson Quarterly_, twenty-some years ago, that more than ninety percent of all writers and commentators of the nation's leading newspapers and television networks identified themselves as "Democrats" and most of the rest as "independents"; not more than two percent were self-styled "Republicans". Of course, the apparent change may be linked to different samples; or (as I think) perhaps these writers and commentators follow power, at a lag of some years.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
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Locke used "estate", rather than "property" or "happiness" if I'm recalling his Second Treatise of Civil Government correctly. All of this shows how important understanding context is when examining a two hundred plus year old document.

Regards,

Charles

https://bostonhistory.typepad.com


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> Locke used "estate", rather than "property" or "happiness" if I'm recalling his Second Treatise of Civil Government correctly. All of this shows how important understanding context is when examining a two hundred plus year old document. . . .


I think you're right, Charles, on both counts. Locke's school, including those in the American colonies, chose the other terms in development and application of his thought.

I'm back to work. 'Too bad that's no longer the study of history.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

The elegance of Jeffersonâ€™s prose, and the noble, if vague, sentiments he expresses, have little to do with why "it seems everyone loves to hate [A]merica" nearly 230 years after the quoted passage was written. It should also be noted that if contemporary Americans took to heart the famous, final sentence of this passage the current regime would find itself in a rather unpleasant position, to put it mildly. Small chance of this, however. Finally, it is grotesque to hear Americans complain that their nation is universally â€œhated,â€ or, worse, that it is insufficiently "loved"; but, alas, one can expect nothing better these days, as our public rhetoric has sunk to a level of childish debasement that would have appalled Jefferson and his contemporaries. Sally Hemmingsâ€™ (possible) lover must be shaking his head in dismay as he wanders the Elysian Fields and ponders his handiwork.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> 
> The elegance of Jeffersonâ€™s prose, and the noble, if vague, sentiments he expresses, have little to do with why "it seems everyone loves to hate [A]merica" nearly 230 years after the quoted passage was written. It should also be noted that if contemporary Americans took to heart the famous, final sentence of this passage the current regime would find itself in a rather unpleasant position, to put it mildly. Small chance of this, however. Finally, it is grotesque to hear Americans complain that their nation is universally â€œhated,â€ or, worse, that it is insufficiently "loved"; alas, one can expect nothing better these days, as our public rhetoric has sunk to a level of childish debasement that would have appalled Jefferson and his contemporaries. Sally Hemmingsâ€™ (possible) lover must be shaking his head in dismay as he wanders the Elysian Fields and ponders his handiwork.
> 
> "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


actually, I beg to differ I think that in almost every case where people "hate" america, they do so because they resent the idea that their status quo could change - that social mobility could make thier life less good by allowing changes in the structure that gives them confort.


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## eromlignod (Nov 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AZTEC_
> 
> These days it seems everyone loves to hate america, (and I'm all too aware of samuel johnson's sentiment that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel) but aren't these some of the most moving and beautiful political words ever written? I never get tired of rereading them:
> 
> ...


I think they are beautiful words as long as they are not misinterpreted, over-interpreted, or given divine status and considered infallible and unalterable, as they often are. All men should be equal in the eyes of the law, but all men are _not_ created equal. A more accurate statement might be that "No two men are _ever_ equal". Some people are smarter than others, some people are stronger or faster than others. Different people have different talents for different things. I think it is important to take this into account, especially if one has pollyannish notions of a "classless society".

Don
Kansas City


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

All men are created equal in that they have _inherent_ rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, among others. There is a whole body of literature on what constitutes these natural rights, which aren't granted by governments and can not be taken away by the government--these rights are unalienable. Governments can be established to secure these rights, but are not necessary to do so.

There is nothing about a classless society, different physical abilities, etc. to be construed from these words. So yes, all men are equal in their inherent rights, according to Locke.

Regards,

Charles

https://bostonhistory.typepad.com


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## eromlignod (Nov 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> All men are created equal in that they have _inherent_ rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, among others. There is a whole body of literature on what constitutes these natural rights, which aren't granted by governments and can not be taken away by the government--these rights are unalienable. Governments can be established to secure these rights, but are not necessary to do so.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I take offense at those who misinterpret these words to mean that everyone has an equal right to graduate college, or at Caucasians who might point to the fact that the 100 m dash has been dominated by blacks for decades, even though they are a minority, to construe this as unfair discrimination, since the percentage of whites should also reflect the percentage of winners over time, all things being equal.

Don
Kansas City


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

As a Canadian who voted this week to change our federal government, I find these words particularly salient.

In addition, in light of the recent elections in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and the overwhelming support offered to an overt terrorist organization (as opposed to the former covert one that governed), I feel we could also add: _In a democracy, you will get the government you deserve!_


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by eromlignod_
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Do you actually know of any person who has cited The Declaration's ringing assertion "that all men are created equal" as evidence that Black dominance in the 100 meters must be an instance of "unfair discrimination"? I mean any person outside of a madhouse?

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

I believe that there is a certain foaming-at-the-mouth contingent that will apply the "hates America" tag to anyone who merely criticizes the current government and its actions -- just as it knee-jerkingly responds to any critic of the war with: "You don't support the troops!"

Perhaps those who criticize the current state of affairs love America best, because they clearly expect better of it, and that entails an unswaying belief in the idealism on which the nation was founded rather than the cynical view that this is good enough. In any social or business situation, are the most useful people those who without fail tell you what you want to hear, or those who warn you of the consequences of certain actions? The true friend does the latter because he cares about you enough to risk the friendship in what he perceives to be your best interest.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
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I've never even heard anyone claim that "everyone has an equal right to graduate college".


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## eromlignod (Nov 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
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No, but I've heard it the other way around about White dominance in other fields. What is the difference?

Don
Kansas City


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> I've never even heard anyone claim that "everyone has an equal right to [be] graduate[d from] college".


I have, both in the legislature of my state and in cocktail conversation -- quite seriously.

Standard high-school diplomas are routinely given (throughout New England, I think) to the mentally retarded children who attend classes and take part in graduation ceremonies. Having close connections (as a volunteer) with many such children, I do think that the pleasure of participating in the same activities as most other people is good for all, even those children too retarded to understand what either the diploma, the ceremonies, or the classes represent. What such blanket conferral of diplomas does to the scant remaining value of those certificates is quite different, of course. Blanket conferral of university degrees is a logical extension of this practice.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
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Well, some of the more expansive natural right theorists would include tertiary education as a basic human right: John Rawls, to take but one notable example, and Article 26 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states as much. On the other hand, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that there is no explicit or implicit federal Constitutional right to education, of any kind; which should please the "states rights" advocates no end, as no public education, or, failing that, terrible public education, is a crucial plank in their gallows. . . I mean platform.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> 
> I believe that there is a certain foaming-at-the-mouth contingent that will apply the "hates America" tag to anyone who merely criticizes the current government and its actions -- just as it knee-jerkingly responds to any critic of the war with: "You don't support the troops!"
> 
> Perhaps those who criticize the current state of affairs love America best, because they clearly expect better of it, and that entails an unswaying belief in the idealism on which the nation was founded rather than the cynical view that this is good enough. In any social or business situation, are the most useful people those who without fail tell you what you want to hear, or those who warn you of the consequences of certain actions? The true friend does the latter because he cares about you enough to risk the friendship in what he perceives to be your best interest.


Dissent and critique without an alternative coherent plan or platform is akin to the loud ramblings of a child. Its all noise and no substance.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:
> Well, some of the more expansive natural right theorists would include tertiary education as a basic human right: John Rawls, to take but one notable example, and Article 26 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states as much. On the other hand, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that there is no explicit or implicit federal Constitutional right to education, of any kind; which should please the "states rights" advocates no end, as no public education, or, failing that, terrible public eduation, is a crucial plank in their gallows. . . I mean platform.
> 
> "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


Oh thats a bit much, states rights advocates contend that public education is a failing institution not by lack of funding but a host of other reasons including, obtuse union involvement, eroding subjective standards, etc. Yet I find it surprising that when these same advocates advocate a voucher system for those children "stuck" in deadbeat public education systems, as is found throughout the southeastern US, the public education gurus, many of which send their own children to private educational facilities, cry foul.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## eromlignod (Nov 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
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Exactly. And what's appalling is the notion that the only thing between your average boob and a college degree is money, which is untrue. You have to be of above-average intelligence and gumption to make it through an accredited university. Most people can't cut it.

I applaud scholarship programs where gifted students can qualify for college money, even if they couldn't normally afford it. But the idea that everyone has the right to graduate college is an insult to those of us who worked our behind off for four or more years to make it through and are qualified to design bridges, skyscrapers and computers, operate on hearts, and serve on the supreme court.

Having a college diploma bought for you by the government, regardless of merit, is not an inalienable right of man.

Don
Kansas City


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
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And of course anyone's point of view that conflicts with yours would be not be "coherent"?


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

If everyone graduated from (some) college, than a "college degree" would be meaningless, in the way that a high school diploma is now meaningless. It does not even guarantee that the holder can read to a certain level of proficiency or count his change.

Sorry to divert this topic further, but egalitarianism does not extend to marks of achievement, only to the free access to achieve to the level of one's ability. I don't believe anyone here has disagreed with that.


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## GentleCheetah (Oct 17, 2005)

Hatred usually eminates from lesser people, towards the stronger ones. The US cannot remain the strongest for ever. So be it. Life is a Russian Roulette. Therefore I wouldn't take for granted a short streak of luck -- two, three hundred years, no? -- as manifestation of God-given, inalienable rights; nor would I give a damn to the fuming resentiments against the US. However, it pays not to incite those resentiments when abroad. Sometimes people would criticize US in my face. I'd just brush it off and ignore their negative comments, knowing that a large opart of their motivation is envy (or worse, jealousy).

Words are just words; feelings are just feelings. Let those who harbor them have them. We can enjoy the fine fabrics and good life.



The Gentle Cheetah


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> From the late HST, writing in 1972, but still a fun quote three decades later:
> 
> "This may be is the year when we finally come face to face with ourselves; finally just lay back and say it â€" that we are really just a nation of 220 million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns, and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable."


I'm ok with that.



> quote:
> Jesus! Where will it end? How low do you have to stoop in this country to become President?"


Nixon was the logical result of "progressive" politics in this country.

Carter was the result of Nixon.

Thankfully Reagan was there to show us the way.

Shame on the Republicans for faltering.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
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You hang out with idiots.



> quote:
> Standard high-school diplomas are routinely given (throughout New England, I think) to the mentally retarded children who attend classes and take part in graduation ceremonies. Having close connections (as a volunteer) with many such children, I do think that the pleasure of participating in the same activities as most other people is good for all, even those children too retarded to understand what either the diploma, the ceremonies, or the classes represent. What such blanket conferral of diplomas does to the scant remaining value of those certificates is quite different, of course.


It is not hte conference of the diploma upon these unfortuante individuals that is the problem, as all and sundry can see their infirmity and be fairly certain that their diploma was given with the best of intentions as a sop to the parents and a feel good measure for them. What is more delitorious is the awarding of "merit" to those of borderline capacity--that degrades and devalues the diploma for all.

It is not the imbecile that causes the problem but rather the merely inadequate.



> quote:
> Blanket conferral of university degrees is a logical extension of this practice.


Dude, I've got a degree in Fine Art. THEY ALREADY DO THAT.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by petro_
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> > quote:_Originally posted by rws_
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Yes, sometimes I do; sometimes that's known as "public service"! (No, as I hope is obvious from the tenor of my post, I don't endorse the blanket conferral of diplomas and degrees upon all and sundry; it's one reason why American academic credentials have such mixed reputations both here and abroad, and the false sense of accomplishment it gives contributes -- I think -- to our current difficulties.)


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> There is nothing about a classless society, different physical abilities, etc. to be construed from these words. So yes, all men are equal in their inherent rights, according to Locke.


Actually, there is.

In every "classed" society that I am aware of (including modern Europe) there are both legal and cultural impediments to advancement.

In America, especially after amendments 13, 14, 15 legal barriers based on class are simply not permissible.

So we can (and to an extent do) have a class structure in this country, but it is ground-up, not imposed from above.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> ...it's one reason why American academic credentials have such mixed reputations both here and abroad, and the false sense of accomplishment it gives contributes -- I think -- to our current difficulties.)


There is sufficient evidence that this sort of "grade inflation", or better yet "certification deflation" is going on overseas (England specifically) as well.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:
> And of course anyone's point of view that conflicts with yours would be not be "coherent"?


Please kind sir, give me the DNC's platform with regards to Iraq or national security for that matter?

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Mr Kabbaz,

Good to see you on the Interchange!


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
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That's a rather strange request, seeing as a recent CBS/NY Times poll showed that only 5 percent of Americans believe the current administration has a clear plan regarding Iraq.

The Democrats believe the solution to the Iraq situation must be found in working with our allies rather than deciding this on our own and then imposing our will on friendly nations. And they are quite specific in this 22-page page report about how to strengthen our military:

It's fine if you want to disagree with other viewpoints, but to basically assert that the Democrats do not offer a specific plan is either ignorant or dishonest.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
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> Yckmwia
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A bit much? Not at all. Surely you recall Former FCC Chairman Reed Hundt's recent disclosure that Bill Bennett once told him to his face that "he did not want public schools to obtain new funding, new capability, new tools for success. He wanted them . . . to fail so that they could be replaced with vouchers, charter schools, religious schools, and other forms of private education." Of course, Bennett was merely Education Secretary (!!!) for several years under the Reactionary Supremo, Ronald Reagan. Here in the Golden State, we are honored to host the headquarters of The Alliance For The Separation of School and State, which, if it is not a joke (it's often hard to tell with these people), is a right-wing reptile farm and lobby group devoted to ending public education. The hostility of the Dobsons and Robertsons - and, by extension, that of their mouth-breathing flocks - to public schools as anything other than state-funded prayer chapels is well-known. And what is the intelligent design "controversy," if not a typical exercise of "state rights"? Of course, one might dismiss statements by Dobson, Robertson, The Alliance, et al, as the ravings of madmen and half-wits, but, if the last 25 years or so has taught us anything it is that the ravings of the mad have a nasty tendency to move to the forefront in American political life, as Gamblinâ€™ Billâ€™s candid statement to former Secretary Hundt reveals.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## burnedandfrozen (Mar 11, 2004)

I think it's just the far left crazies that have won favor with the media and so that's all you hear about. Look at Hillary Clinton. What a turn around she did after seeing the results of the last election. A classic flip flop just like any politician. One question I'd like answered: All those celebs that said they would leave the country if Bush got re-elected are still here. Why didn't they make good on their promise? Hypocrites!
As for other countries well, the US has always been the big dog on the block. It's easy for other countries to point at us and say it's our fault that they aren't has powerful or sucessful. The problem is that America wants to be liked. So we bend over backwards to help out just about every country that needs it. We don't secure our boarders to stop terrorists coming in because we want Mexico to like us and not call us racists. So on and so on.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Petro, this is not my fight, obviously, and my quote from HST was mostly for humourous purposes, but...

That you would accept, presumably with a straight face, as desireable an unflattering and critical description of America, made by an avowed libertarian, whilst simultaneously using as your sigfile a quote from another avowed libertarian, presumably with approval, implies inconsistency.

DD


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