# Why buy American made?



## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

I did a quick and dirty search for this and came up empty-handed. If there is already a thread dedicated to this conversation, please direct me to it.

What is the reasoning behind the preference for American made products? This theme seems to underlie a lot of what is said in this forum, at least as far as purchasing decisions go. Is it a throwback to the "good ole' days" of yesteryear? A desire to seek quality? The belief that outsourcing is ethically wrong? Or something else?

Enlighten me.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

I'm not sure your premise it true.

A lot of us prefer Italian, i.e, Canali, Mabro, etc.

M8


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## Speas (Mar 11, 2004)

Why do I love and support my brother more than my neighbor? It isn't just that I like him better.

Speas
(made in America)


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Martinis at 8 said:


> I'm not sure your premise it true.
> 
> A lot of us prefer Italian, i.e, Canali, Mabro, etc.
> 
> M8


Are you aware of where you are? I don't know that the word "Italian" has ever been mentioned positively on this forum.


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## fashionvictim (Jan 9, 2005)

*Cost cutting.*

You're right, it's not really just American-only, there's English shoes (or Vass even). Or Italian suits by Brioni, Kiton, etc.

The bias is really there for things like Florsheim shoes that *used* to be made in the US. When a company moves production, it's usually to cut costs and often includes cutting corners and lower quality. That's when we advocate staying local.

-- Mike


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

The labor practices in many countries are appalling. Chinese clothing factories are pretty close to slave labor - the employees work until they drop from exhaustion and they are not allowed to leave the compound without permission (which is never granted). Some Pacific islands used to be allowed to place a 'Made in USA' label due to their protectorate status and yet they engaged in labor practices illegal in the US. I believe Congress put an end to the labeling scheme but did not change the labor situation.

In contrast , HartMarx and Southwick are union which sets a minimum wage level and I think SamuelSohn in Canada also has a labor organization to set standards of employee treatment. The labor costs of a garment coming from those manufacturers are probably an order of magnitude greater than their similarly priced competitors using low cost labor in China or elsewhere (Ralph Lauren etc)

edit: I find it near impossible to avoid buying clothing made in countries with poor labor standards though. Usually it is the essentials like socks and undershirts that are exclusively off shore made although I recently found some Levi's socks made here which is encouraging.


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

cgc said:


> The labor practices in many countries are appalling. Chinese clothing factories are pretty close to slave labor - the employees work until they drop from exhaustion and they are not allowed to leave the compound without permission (which is never granted). Some Pacific islands used to be allowed to place a 'Made in USA' label due to their protectorate status and yet they engaged in labor practices illegal in the US. I believe Congress put an end to the labeling scheme but did not change the labor situation.
> 
> In contrast , HartMarx and Southwick are union which sets a minimum wage level and I think SamuelSohn in Canada also has a labor organization to set standards of employee treatment. The labor costs of a garment coming from those manufacturers are probably an order of magnitude greater than their similarly priced competitors.


Best reason to by American made. The only thing is, how do you tell if the item is from a sweat shop? Appalling conditions happen here too.


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## Flashy (Mar 15, 2006)

For what its worth, for me its a quality issue. The best quality clothing is made in the US, UK, and Italy, though some of the Hong Kong manufacturers are nearly as good. 

cgc, 1) Ralph Lauren suits and many of his shirts are Italian, shoes are UK and Italian. 2) JAB socks (many anyway) are USA-made still.


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

anglophile23 said:


> Best reason to by American made. The only thing is, how do you tell if the item is from a sweat shop? Appalling conditions happen here too.


A good question to which I don't have a solid answer. The instances I have seen where such labor was used was in the sportswear or fashion knockoff markets. To the best of my knowledge companies like Allen-Edmonds, Alden, Oxxford/IAG, Southwick and the HartMarx companies have never engaged in anything like sweatshop practices. Nike on the other hand...


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

wnh said:


> Are you aware of where you are? I don't know that the word "Italian" has ever been mentioned positively on this forum.


Nonsense. It's mentioned here positively by many others. In fact Canali and Mabro both were recommended to me here at AAAC.

Cheers,

M8

P.S. This thread is headed for the _Interchange_ forum. I suspect this is a political thread.


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

Flashy said:


> cgc, 1) Ralph Lauren suits and many of his shirts are Italian, shoes are UK and Italian. 2) JAB socks (many anyway) are USA-made still.


I have bought Italian made Polo and yes some Hong Kong made shirts from time to time. Ralph was one of the manufacturers using the Pacific island sweatshops (in the Marianas I believe) which makes it harder for me to buy something from one of his lines after learning this. There is always the question of how much do the executives know about the labor practices in their production lines since contracts are awarded all over the place and the actual work can be deeply sub-contracted after that. I don't know how trustworthy the labels are on the finished goods either.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> Nonsense. It's mentioned here positively by many others. In fact Canali and Mabro both were recommended to me here at AAAC.


On Trad forum?


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Martinis at 8 said:


> Nonsense. It's mentioned here positively by many others. In fact Canali and Mabro both were recommended to me here at AAAC.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...


Canali? On the trad forum? In my 10 or so month of reading this forum, I have never seen Canali mentioned here. I imagine it is of frequent mention on the Fashion forum, but Trad?

And let me assure you that this is not a political thread, at least not by design. I am just curious as to why there seems to be a bias, if you will, toward American made clothing by those in the Trad forum.

I understand that the people here do not refuse to purchase clothing made elsewhere (British-made is certainly acceptable, even desireable, from what I have read). I just want to know why there is such a strong preference for American made.

That said, I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to undermine my question. Thanks.


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

The 'bias' toward American made for the Trad also has a basis in the fact that Trad is an American lifestyle. It makes sense that the sack suit, for example, would come from US sources first and foremost since the is the primary market for the item.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

wnh said:


> Canali? On the trad forum? In my 10 or so month of reading this forum, I have never seen Canali mentioned here. I imagine it is of frequent mention on the Fashion forum, but Trad?
> 
> And let me assure you that this is not a political thread, at least not by design. I am just curious as to why there seems to be a bias, if you will, toward American made clothing by those in the Trad forum.
> 
> ...


Oh, so now you are qualifying this by specifying the Trad Forum specifically as opposed to AAAC in general. That's not what your initial post said. Besides many of us post in all sections of AAAC, and just because your question is posted in Trad that doesn't mean the Trad posters tend to go exclusively American made. There's no fixed boundary at AAAC or with Trad.

The only undermining of your question is when the question is posted as something "ethical" or answered in a political nature such as labor practices, etc.

But no, in general I do not think the Trad look is confined to American made products. It is not _Amerika uber alles_.



fashionvictim said:


> You're right, it's not really just American-only, there's English shoes (or Vass even). Or Italian suits by Brioni, Kiton, etc.
> 
> The bias is really there for things like Florsheim shoes that *used* to be made in the US. When a company moves production, it's usually to cut costs and often includes cutting corners and lower quality. That's when we advocate staying local.
> 
> -- Mike


I have to agree with this. In the clothing industry, Trad or not, "American Made" in today's world is meaningless. Product content can come from anywhere, regardless of the label. This is true with almost all products "Made in America".

We can thank the smart-ass Ivy League boys for farming out all the work overseas for most US industries, the very same boys that the Trad-istas want to emulate with their Must-Be-Made-in-America ethos. Isn't it ironic? LMAO! :icon_smile_big:


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

I think that with some items, such as Alden shoes or Southwick suits, I do believe that the quality is better than outsourced goods. Add to this their name reputation here in America throughout much of the 20th century and you see how supply and demand can work. People who want custom-made Alden's from someone like LeatherSoul or the Shoe Mart are willing to wait 8-12 months for them because of the quality and the reputation. They know that what they are buying is going to last. I'm not saying that English shoes or Italian suits aren't this way either. If I lived in Wales, I'd probably only buy English clothing and perhaps Scottish sweaters. Same with Italy. I guess, for me, reading a "Made In USA" label on a Brooks shirt or Allen Edmonds shoe is more about supporting American workers and American jobs. If companies want to outsource, then do so. But, there's nothing wrong with taking care of the home folks...

TT:teacha:


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

TradTeacher said:


> I think that with some items, such as Alden shoes or Southwick suits, I do believe that the quality is better than outsourced goods. Add to this their name reputation here in America throughout much of the 20th century and you see how supply and demand can work. People who want custom-made Alden's from someone like LeatherSoul or the Shoe Mart are willing to wait 8-12 months for them because of the quality and the reputation. They know that what they are buying is going to last. I'm not saying that English shoes or Italian suits aren't this way either. If I lived in Wales, I'd probably only buy English clothing and perhaps Scottish sweaters. Same with Italy. I guess, for me, reading a "Made In USA" label on a Brooks shirt or Allen Edmonds shoe is more about supporting American workers and American jobs. If companies want to outsource, then do so. But, there's nothing wrong with taking care of the home folks...
> 
> TT:teacha:


Now that was a well-balanced response that I find myself agreeing with 100%.

M8


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

wnh said:


> Enlighten me.


A webboard is probably the wrong spot to seek enlightenment!

Please examine the multiple threads in praise of WW Chan, Hemrajani, Jantzen, and others. Please also read to see the criticism of Ike Behar (most do not feel his product is worth full retail). Also check the CostCo "fancy pants" threads for odd trousers made in Italy. Our good host Andy is one of their proponents.

I have moved to AE shoes, thanks to Jan and others, not because they are made in America, but because I can find them at reasonable prices, they are comfortable, good looking (to my tastes), and have a re-crafting service. If a shoe from South Yemen came on the market that bettered these qualities, I would not hesitate to buy those.

This thread seems to have started on the Trad thread. The reason people there tend to seek US made and bemoan when one of those companies close or outsource, is because the Trad style is particularly US in origin. Several generations of families used these sources for their clothing. Their whole paradigm is based on tradition and resisting change in regards to life's basic needs, such as clothing. As many of them drive Rovers and Volvos, attempting to make the case they will only purchase Made in America goods is simply specious.

Cheers


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I associate many products with specific cultures. Buying Any tweed other than Harris or Donegal is-unamerican. The western riding boot has become a fashion statement worldwide. I can assure you though, there are fine details, ie; shaving the instep for stirrups, a loose heel vs the locked ankle of european boots, spur shelf, lining etc. that are lost to an overseas maker. There is a story ( Winter Wilderness Companion by the Conovers) of the US military acquiring Inuit Parkas to pattern arctic gear. They found several pieces and sewing details deemed superfluous to production and made up 'improved' parkas. The improved parkas were utter failures: They lacked the ease of movement, venting and warmth. There is native genius in products that, like many plants wilt and perish or become stunted when transplanted.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Martinis at 8 said:


> Oh, so now you are qualifying this by specifying the Trad Forum specifically as opposed to AAAC in general. That's not what your initial post said. Besides many of us post in all sections of AAAC, and just because your question is posted in Trad that doesn't mean the Trad posters tend to go exclusively American made. There's no fixed boundary at AAAC or with Trad.


Posting in the Trad forum, I figured it would be assumed that I was asking the question of the members who frequent that forum and to whom the question pertained. I didn't think I needed to specify. Apparently I was wrong.

Could a mod perhaps move this thread back to the Trad forum? I was (unsuccessfully, apparently) asking those individuals why they preferred American made clothing, not those who prefer their suits made by Canali and their shirts by Jantzen. I'm not stupid enough to ask the Italian-suit wearing individuals why they prefer American made clothing. I thought my question was rather obvious.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

wnh said:


> Posting in the Trad forum, I figured it would be assumed that I was asking the question of the members who frequent that forum and to whom the question pertained. I didn't think I needed to specify. Apparently I was wrong.


You see? We have let you down. Again, do not seek enlightenment amongst us.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> You see? We have let you down. Again, do not seek enlightenment amongst us.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but I wasn't serious when I said "Enlighten me." That was just my way of saying "Tell me why you feel this way."

Mods, please don't bother moving this thread back to the Trad forum. I think I'll just start a new thread, this time aimed specifically and explicitely at those who side with the trad/Ivy look and who prefer their clothing to be American made. This thread has gone too far downhill.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Get your shoes resoled with american made oaktanned leather. You won't slip down anthills of your own making.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

wnh said:


> Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but I wasn't serious when I said "Enlighten me." That was just my way of saying "Tell me why you feel this way."
> 
> Mods, please don't bother moving this thread back to the Trad forum. I think I'll just start a new thread, this time aimed specifically and explicitely at those who side with the trad/Ivy look and who prefer their clothing to be American made. This thread has gone too far downhill.


You, of course, could have zero'ed in on the paragraph I devoted to answering for the Trads. I think it was on target. One can lead a horse to water...and salt in its feedbag will make it drink.

Cheers


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

I honestly try to but American whenever I'm able to justify it for my needs or wants.

I found this web site. Granted it's for Tradesmen's clothing. I purchsed a pair of ThroughOgood boots though!

How Americans Can Buy American

Best wishes,

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> What is the reasoning behind the preference for American made products?


If one's commodity-purchase choices are based on the idea that an automatic preference for locally-made goods will improve the local economy and the local quality of life in general, such reasoning can only be described as a failure to understand the idea of comparative advantage.

().


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Phinn said:


> If one's commodity-purchase choices are based on the idea that an automatic preference for locally-made goods will improve the local economy and the local quality of life in general, such reasoning can only be described as a failure to understand the idea of comparative advantage.
> 
> ().


Phinn, that's always a tough sell. I know, I have tried many times. The dissenting person usually thinks they have struck paydirt when they come up with "dumping." They never buy (pun intended) the answer.


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> The dissenting person usually thinks they have struck paydirt when they come up with "dumping." They never buy (pun intended) the answer.


You just have to explain it in terms the listener will understand. For example, on this forum, one might say, "Now, suppose that Allen-Edmonds decided to 'dump' its goods on the market, selling all its shoes, including that , for $29 a pair ..."

I believe the response would be something like: Let the dumping begin!


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Phinn said:


> You just have to explain it in terms the listener will understand. For example, on this forum, one might say, "Now, suppose that Allen-Edmonds decided to 'dump' its goods on the market, selling all its shoes, including that , for $29 a pair ..."
> 
> I believe the response would be something like: Let the dumping begin!


I wouldn't be one to say "Let the dumping begin." Unfortunately, the quality would go down. Look at Schwinn and GT bicycles, since they were bought by Pacific, the quality has dropped, and they are now sold at WalMart.

AEs at WalMart? *shudders*

btw, I'm not saying that for something to be a quality item it must be American made.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I can still remember back to micro-econ 101 and the lecture about comparative advantage. My prof was a Ph.D. candidate, ABD, and had just moved from Italy, with a heavy accent. He might have not quite internalized the nuances of the language yet. He spoke of two items made in Italy, suits and cars. He spoke of his Fiat. "It is how you say? Eets Sheety". Of course we all chuckled and his language use probably will have that little example stick with me for life.


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

Phinn said:


> If one's commodity-purchase choices are based on the idea that an automatic preference for locally-made goods will improve the local economy and the local quality of life in general, such reasoning can only be described as a failure to understand the idea of comparative advantage.
> ().


I'm a huge supporter of free trade, however, we don't really have *free* trade agreements with any government. We have trade agreements where, for example, the US will import good X under a specific tariff schedule, in exchange the US will export good Y under a specific tariff schedule. My problem with this is now you have politicians deciding which industries are affected from these trade agreements. There should either be a standard tariff across all products (to compensate for currency manipulation, for instance) or no tariff, and completely open trade.


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## Frihed91 (Jan 3, 2008)

*Immigarnt labor*

You need relatively low paid labor to be competitive. That is why the clothing and shoe industry first shifted from new England to the Southeast US and then went overseas. I know of one small clothes mfr in the US who uses, exclusively, non-union legal female Asian immigrants because they will gladly accept lower than union wages and are more efficient than non-immigrants (or non-Asian immigrants).

it's am good company and makes a great niche product! He treats his workers very well. I used to work across the street!


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

Because shoes made in China suck.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Frihed91 said:


> You need relatively low paid labor to be competitive. That is why the clothing and shoe industry first shifted from new England to the Southeast US and then went overseas. I know of one small clothes mfr in the US who uses, exclusively, non-union legal female Asian immigrants because they will gladly accept lower than union wages and are more efficient than non-immigrants (or non-Asian immigrants).
> 
> it's am good company and makes a great niche product! He treats his workers very well. I used to work across the street!


Welcome to the Board. Your knowledge of the US, for someone from Denmark, is impressive. What made you decide to revive this year old thread might I ask?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Is it more important to buy American made or American owned?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Is it more important to buy American made or American owned?


Neither :teacha: (from the consumer's point of view).


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I had this job that involved driving a truck once a week. SOCAL residents will appreciate my journey; left Ventura @ 5 A.M. and drove out to Rancho Cucamonga, crossed over to Pomona, Whittier, Anaheim, Buena Park, Compton and East l.A. in 8-12 hours before heading home. I picked up furniture, imported from Mainland China and some made localy. The local shops were 100% illegal latino labour but slapped PROUDLY MADE IN THE USA on the back, except for the big labour Day ( in Mexico, not our day or May Day) when they proudly stayed home and the streets and sidewalks actually worked. My company proudly forced me out of my job for not being Born Again, hired 3 more illegals in the warehouse and one college kid for the summer brought in by a proud and smiling Congressman Elton Gallegly ( R) who was good friends with the owner. Gasoline used to be MADE IN AMERICA. American Flags may still be MADE IN AMERICA. Fortunes can still be MADE IN AMERICA, usually by screwing over another human being, MADE IN AMERICA, Plays Born in the US A, CD proudly pressed overseas.


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## Frihed91 (Jan 3, 2008)

*Big World*

I was born in Denmark and I was snuck out as a baby under the noses of the Germans. I spent another 51 years in the US - 12 of them in Boulder, CO - before returning "home".

I re-started the thread because I remember looking out my window at work for many years and watching the bow tie ladies doing their exercises every morning!


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