# Ethics



## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

First off, I am not a vegan, a member of Peta or anything like that...so don't go nuts on me. I fear this is not the right crowd for this discussion, but I'll start it anyway.

I have just been doing some thinking lately on the ethics of certain animal products in clothing. The trad aesthetic eschews most synthetic materials which are, for lack of a better term, more environmentally sound than products that require the raising of animals. But Trad also stresses the 'longevity' of clothing and that IS environmentally sound. We use garments until they fall apart, unlike those who dispose of things year to year due to style changes.

Most of what we wear everyday comes from a plant, the cotton plant.

But other materials that find their way into our wardrobes in a big way are leather and wool. Both require the raising of animals [who are also mostly used for meat].

Wool sounds innocuous. They don't kill the sheep to get the wool. But on the whole, I gather it's a pretty abusive process. I think more sheep are raised for their wool than are cows for their leather. In fact, I think wool is not a naturally occurring product. Wild sheep do not produce the copious wool coats that domestic sheep do. It's been engineered into the animal.

Anyway, I don't really have an argument I intend to make here...I just was thinking about it and wondered if any of this stuff ever crosses your mind.

Do you think there's a place for an animal-free trad wardrobe?

Danny

P.S. I use leather and wool and eat meat...I am not pointing fingers, only thinking out loud.


----------



## farrago (Apr 27, 2006)

Out here in Portland, there are some who practice the vegan philosophy with strict adherence, going so far as to apply it to all facets of their lives and not simply their diet.
My tailor/seamstress has such clients who will not choose wool, even though the harvesting of the fleece does not kill the animal.
And so they choose cotton (some won't even choose this) or, more likely, a synthetic fiber. I hasten to point out that synthetics are often derived from petrochemical resources. This too ought to be anathema to those who practice the strict vegan philosophy.
Such are the moral dilemmas one faces when one becomes wrapped up so tightly in rigid philosophies.


----------



## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

What is the ethical argument against cotton? I am curious.


----------



## farrago (Apr 27, 2006)

I never found out the exact reason(s)! 

Some of her clients are staunchly adamant that a plant fiber shouldn't be exploited.


----------



## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

Man that's intense.

Better not find that person walking on grass.


----------



## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

farrago said:


> I hasten to point out that synthetics are often derived from petrochemical resources. This too ought to be anathema to those who practice the strict vegan philosophy.


This was going to be my point as well. I am in grad school for Real Estate development right now, and the big word in development nowadays is sustainability. Frankly, I would say that petrochemical-derived synthetics are not a sustainable choice.


----------



## farrago (Apr 27, 2006)

Yes, such intense philosophies and practices are often broken down when the pendulum swings in the other direction.
A bacon double cheeseburger is the usual culprit!


----------



## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

Yeah I think about that from time to time. Strikes me that wrapping my feet in strips of dead animal skin is a pretty bad lot for the cow. I suppose it's just as bad as the whole eating thing though maybe a hair or two over into obscene vanity.

But then again, to paraphrase a masterpiece of American cinema, well because corned beef tastes good, and cordovan leather is cordovan.


----------



## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

To answer your last question, no, I don't think you can have a pure trad wardrobe without animal products. Wool and leather are too important. You could replace them with synthetic fibers, but you're getting away from the 1950s Ivy League heritage of trad. It would be trad-ish, but not strict trad. 

Although, as others have pointed out, synthetics have their own problems. I think the best solution, if you're concerned about an ethical wardrobe, would be to try to find humane animal products, the clothing equivalent of free-range meat and organic produce.


----------



## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

FYI, this thread may be moved to the Interchange at some point in the very near future.


----------



## markdc (May 17, 2007)

farrago said:


> I never found out the exact reason(s)!
> 
> Some of her clients are staunchly adamant that a plant fiber shouldn't be exploited.


plants have feelings too! :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

Desk Jockey said:


> Strikes me that wrapping my feet in strips of dead animal skin is a pretty bad lot for the cow.


 Of course, that cow would likely never have been born had it not been wanted for leather or food. Or perhaps it would have succumbed to disease or coyote as a young calf - outside of the protection of the farmers fences and vaccinations.


----------



## dandypauper (Jun 10, 2007)

I have been a vegetarian for the last 13 years and was a vegan for six of those. Being a vegetarian is easy, but being vegan was really tough. I didn't purchase or wear wool, down, leather or silk in that time. Wool was easy enough to do without. In college, I never really wore suits or sportcoats, whathaveyou anyway, and I wore flannel shirts, some really nice heavy cotton jackets (if I had known what a Barbour Beaufort was, I'd have certainly found one,) etc, and jeans most of the time. Leather was tough--my feet were always hurting and stinky. I wore through shoes at an unbelievable pace. That's actually what got me wearing leather again after 10 or so years (even after I started eating dairy and stuff again, I eschewed leather.) I just couldn't justify continuing to buy shoes over and over again, with all the environmental issues concerned. (Though you should know, most leathers are dyed and tanned with all sorts of petrochemicals these days, too. It's probably not quite as bad, but it aint great.) The best solution is one that is pretty tradly: ebay and vintage stores. Most vegans are fine buying things in this way, since the damage is already done. That's been my main thing lately, though for financial reasons. Perhaps to take it back to clothing, someone could start a thread on various cruelty-free articles they own or are getting. Good day, fellas and happy Hanukkah to those who celebrate it.


----------



## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

*Go local!*

You could always try to stay local, like that movement of people who try to only eat things raised or grown within 100 miles of where they live. There's a historic operating farm near me that has a flock of merino sheep. If you're concerned about cruelty you can sit and watch them being shorn, hand-spin the thread, then buy the end result in the gift shop.

You can even get it online here:

..though 2-ply worsted yarn would make for a pretty warm sportcoat


----------



## farrago (Apr 27, 2006)

A few years ago, the local community radio station broadcast an interview with a local gent who wove his own cloth and made his own clothes -wool and cotton- from sustainable and humane resources. It was all well and good. But he also was darned if his hard earned money was going to go to "The Man."


----------



## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

jeansguy said:


> Of course, that cow would likely never have been born had it not been wanted for leather or food. Or perhaps it would have succumbed to disease or coyote as a young calf - outside of the protection of the farmers fences and vaccinations.


The protection of fences and drugs, I might add, meant in order to bring it to the market by positively foul routes.

Yeah, cows aren't quite high on the hog in that business... but that delectable hog isn't either.


----------



## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*chemical cotton*

Much of what we eat and wear is produced under, shall we say, not very nice circumstances; lots of nasty chemicals and not particularly nice treatment of the animals involved. Minimizing environmental damage is more important to me than abstract notions about harm to sentient beings or living things such as cotton plants. A byproduct of environmentally friendly animal husbandry is that the animals are more humanely treated than those from big feed lots.

Much, if not most, commercial cotton production is pesticide/chemical intensive. (I have always assumed that to be ther reason Filson sourced their cotton overseas.) The market for organic cotton has grown to the point that Patagonia and other companies, use it in their garments. I'd rather pay a premium for organic cotton clothing than buy chemically produced cotton or petrochemical crap.

Likewise animals from giant feedlots are not as healthy nor healthful as animals raised under different, albeit more expensive circumstances. Also the environmental impact of feedlots is considerably greater than the impacts of smaller operations. Meat from smaller operations is better for you and tastes better than industrial meat. Its production does less environmental damage than the production of factory meat.

It makes sense to me to buy organic whenever one can.

Regards,
Gurdon


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

much of what we enjoy in life is achieved by not nice situations - the difference is that today we are farther removed. not be be an asshole, but I think that it comes down to an issue of maturity: while I wouldln't nessasarily torture baby penguins for a marginally nicer pair of shoes, I think that worring about the comfort and happiness of the animals that provide you with your food, clothes and so on is a sign that you have too much free time on your hands.


----------



## red96 (Jun 26, 2007)

jbmcb said:


> You could always try to stay local, like that movement of people who try to only eat things raised or grown within 100 miles of where they live.


Thank you for providing an excellent justification for why I am almost exclusively buying my shoes from Alden these days! :icon_smile:


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Would it go toward resolving the present ethical dilemma, to buy ones cotton, wool and leather garmets from a consignment or thrift shop, thereby eliminating the affected plants and animals as the immediate source for the respective products and replacing same with an argueably over indulgent sartorial revisionist? Can one successfully argue that a thrift shop find does not in fact directly contribute to the detriment of any plant or animal? Or is this simply a thinly veiled attempt to rationalize my on-going love affair with meat, leather, wool and cotton?


----------



## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

globetrotter said:


> much of what we enjoy in life is achieved by not nice situations - the difference is that today we are farther removed. not be be an asshole, but I think that it comes down to an issue of maturity: while I wouldln't nessasarily torture baby penguins for a marginally nicer pair of shoes, I think that worring about the comfort and happiness of the animals that provide you with your food, clothes and so on is a sign that you have too much free time on your hands.


People on a clothing message board have too much free time? What would make you think that?


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Why do I always feel vaguely insulted when something gets dumped into the Interchange from another fora?


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Interchangers are TOUGH and can withstand the assault of any thread!!!

Give us your BEST shot!!!!


----------



## Corcovado (Nov 24, 2007)

How much leather comes from the hides of animals that were primarily killed for meat? I'm sure some cows are killed specifically for their hides, but surely most leather represents getting the most use out of the carcass of a cow already killed for meat. (?)


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Interestingly, there is a discussion of this very topic in Slate today:


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Why do I always feel vaguely insulted when something gets dumped into the Interchange from another fora?


_We're on the island of misfit toys..._sorry, I was watching Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer with my son last night.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> _We're on the island of misfit toys..._sorry, I was watching Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer with my son last night.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Have a Holly Jolly Christmas
It's the Best Time of the Year
I don't know if ther'll be Snow
But Have Yourself Some Cheer


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Have a Holly Jolly Christmas
> It's the Best Time of the Year
> I don't know if ther'll be Snow
> But Have Yourself Some Cheer


LOL, you're jovial lately! And I'm sure...no snow for me on Xmas so I guess I'll have to have lots of cheer!


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

If it's good enough for Burl Ives, it's good enough for me. (That song was in the special Lax watched.)

I'll end up singing that song about 15 or 20 times this month in nursing homes.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> If it's good enough for Burl Ives, it's good enough for me. (That song was in the special Lax watched.)
> 
> I'll end up singing that song about 15 or 20 times this month in nursing homes.


Yup, I remember it well....

Nursing homes...part of my retirement plan. I plan to be one of those guys that goes around playing at them for money. I know someone that's the activity person at a big one here, they get like $50 bucks for 40 minutes. There's my peanut and beer money in retirement! Then a wedding or funeral once a week...I might not even have to tap the 401(k)!


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm starting to think of ways to build this up. Right now, they think of me as a volunteer and it will be difficult to change that mentality.

At one place, I'm going to start doing monthly concerts for 200 people. I know I have something marketable singing and playing this kind of music (because I can probably do it better than most people my age.) I just have to figure out how to do it.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Have a Holly Jolly Christmas
> It's the Best Time of the Year
> I don't know if ther'll be Snow
> But Have Yourself Some Cheer


and Feliz Navidad to you, Forsberg.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I'm starting to think of ways to build this up. Right now, they think of me as a volunteer and it will be difficult to change that mentality.
> 
> At one place, I'm going to start doing monthly concerts for 200 people. I know I have something marketable singing and playing this kind of music (because I can probably do it better than most people my age.) I just have to figure out how to do it.


I would guess you could probably clear several hundred dollars a week here easy FB2k. I have been paying attention, as I am not joking, piping will be how I make my spending money when I retire. A funeral = $300 or so, a wedding = $350 for church only, double if it is church + pipe into the reception. When I master those small pipes I posted pics of, I could pipe the GHBs at the church, pipe them into the reception hall, then do a set for the receiving line. I figure that should be worth a grand for the bridezillas


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Howard said:


> and Feliz Navidad to you, Forsberg.


Howa, I did not know you are bi.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Howa, I did not know you are bi.


And what makes you think that, Wayfar?


----------



## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

I am a mostly vegetarian, not vegan and I eat some eggs and fish, but not much of either. My reason are not the same as most, I don't enjoy meat and I have some knowledge of the industry, working in animal health for the past 23 years, at one point on the food production animal side.

That said, I have no issues wearing wool (synthetics to me just do not keep one warm), cotton is a staple. Leather, yes I wear more than my fair share, shoes, jackets, and more shoes.

Much of what we wear is left over material from the food industry, maybe not all but much of it is. That does not make it better or worse, just the way it is. I could not survive on vegan shoes, they would never fit or be in my style. The same with much of the vegan clothing, it is not styled for much more that a very casual appearance, at least from what I have seen.

One day we will all just wear uniforms and have chips implanted in our brains so all will be known about us, our credits, etc (if you are a sci-fi fan) and then maybe we will eat out of little trays with sections in different colors with different tastes. Our society is obsessed (me included) with over-indulging oneself, so animal products, or should I say by-products will be around for a long time.

I think the real point is the unfair advantage we have over animals as opposed to our ancient ancestors who stood as much a chance of being a meal as the animal they were hunting.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The objections to cotton are present growing methods demand a very high water and pesticide use. Ethics and animal husbandry go back to what was likely a symbiotic partnership between early hunting peoples and wolves that led to the first domesticated animal, the dog with it's many advantages. Has anyone pondered why swine are considered unclean, or trafe by jews and moslems? The argument of cloven hooves representing Satan fails, other kosher animals have cloven hooves. Nor is it the idea of diseases associated with pork, as again, other animals have their own nasties. A good argument I've heard is that pigs are time and labour intensive animals, and the owner's spend to much time at this individual pursuit and fail to fully contribute to the community. I do know, having worked with the animals Moses never would have crossed the Red, or Reed Sea trying to herd pigs! Our modern factory methods of animal production are certainly nightmarish. The alternative is to patronise those efforts we know strive to do better; organic farms, buffalo meat, local producers to keep our money in the community ( think selfish pig farmers again.) And finally take comfort it is not always a one sided relationship. I learned to shear sheep earning my Associate Degree in Agriculture using up the last of my G.I. Bill. You get to grab the animal,wrestle it into a position niether the Kama Sutra or internet porn ever imagined and sheer with a electric razor. At worse the animal may run off with a few inartfull cuts from the shearer in training, while the shearer goes home with a back only Quasimodo could empathise with. Or, in the case of this one student who grabbed a breeding ram by mistake a voice for 48 hours any italian castratie would envy. I have utterly no ethical problems with calf leather, imagining each AE I look at to be from the descendents of ear tag # S 299, a FRENCH Charolai cow of most intemperate disposition.


----------

