# Harvard not liking bow ties



## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

> Bowties make people look like douche bags. This is just a fact about bowties. They endow 70-year-old men with an air of the ridiculous that is usually reserved for chimps that work for NASA. If they do this for septuagenarians, trust me when I say that they practically make 18 year olds look like Bill Nye the Science Guy.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

In her own words, "There is nothing like exercising one's authority when one has no right to do so."


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

I think the fact that this opinion is that of a _woman_ who bills herself as a "fashion columnist" pretty much says it all. She probably doesn't like boxer shorts, either. Remember, guys...when you let women pick out your clothes, you usually wind up looking a lot like a woman.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

What's wrong with Bill Nye?


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

For that matter, how many times have I seen Bill Nye running down Sumner Street with dozens of young women in leggings and skinny jeans in hot pursuit, all begging for the chance to be near his bow-tied self?

And how about this, Rebecca M. Harrington - Is it true you can tell Harvard girls in a crowd from the band-aids on their knees - from playing the cello?

Huh? Huh?


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> What's wrong with Bill Nye?


Well, he wears his shirt collars a little too loose. Other than that, not much.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Patrick06790 said:


> Is it true you can tell Harvard girls in a crowd from the band-aids on their knees - from playing the cello?


I thought it was from the admissions interview. 

(Edit: "Oh, no you di'nt!")


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

> Last year, I wrote articles about both leggings and skinny jeans, and I concluded that I could never buy either of those pretentious items. This year I have 4 pairs of leggings and a pair of skinny jeans to my credit.


Yeah, way to go for consitency and sticking by your principles. Oh wait, I think Harvard has been having problems with this as an institution during the 21st century...


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

KentW said:


> (Edit: "Oh, no you di'nt!")


Oh, God, that drives me insane. "I coul'nt get the Oxy Co'in in New Bri'ain." Consonantally-challenged.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Does it strike anyone else here as somewhat dismaying that a young woman with the academic accomplishments to get into Harvard and the writing ability to get on the staff of the Crimson would be reduced to using such crude and ultimately meaningless language as "douche bags" to describe bowtie wearers?

Just another sign of the coarsening of the culture.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Having read the article, I guess we all have better insight regarding why REBECCA might be getting so much hate mail...in additional to the coarse language, she applies an aggravatingly hostile writing style.


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

I don't know about Harvard per se, but a lot of these elite schools in the northeast are filled with other ethnicities (Who someone with the name harrington does not appear to be) and various middle class to new money types who do not tend to look like, act like, or personally like the old Waspy ivy league feel. A small minority of the students--maybe 10-20% of people who are from old wasp patrician families, or at least try to give off that aura. They are hated and resented by the rest of their peers, who probably see bowties, blue blazers and anything waspy as representing "douchebaggery." Think of the Order of the Ball and Shaft in the movie PCU

Also, maybe preppy is a northern thing in its origin, but in the South people do it a lot more tastefully. Going to a southern school with a lot of carpetbaggers, I can tell you it was always the yankees who wore popped collars, spiked hair, aviator glasses etc with pink pants in the middle of december. And I can see a lot of these people wearing stupid vineyard vines bowties with a madras jacket and look like, well douchebags.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

Maddox is right that there's a certain kind of vicious resentment towards what are seen as the vestiges of the WASP elite at Harvard. Here's a guide written by some students who are very angry about Harvard's past and its present (but not angry enough to decline their offers of admission):


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Maddox, 
I must take issue with your previous post. While I'm sure it was entirely unintended, it implied a certian hostility to certian ethnic groups which seems entirely unnecessary. We musn't forget the J.Press was founded by a non-WASP and that it now owned by a non-WASP company. Brooks Brothers in its heyday was owned by a non-WASP. Equating traditional American clothing with WASPs, would in this light seem to be a mistake. I also wonder how many of the southern WASPs are really WISPs (white-irsh-scottish-protestants, ulstermen, and I know many an ulsterman who would resent very much being called and Anglo-Saxon) who are really Celtic? This theory seems shakier all the time. When one adds to this that many of our great trad icons are Catholic: John O'Hara, William F. Buckley Jr., RFK, and Daniel Patrick Moynihanm the notion that trad is exclusively WASPy seems almost ridiculious. Also there is the difficult to explain fact that graduates of America's great boarding schools almost all dress as if they are graduates of America's great rehab clinics. 
I might accept the claim about new money, but then this begs the question how old is old enough? In some circles anything after the Civil War is still on the newish side, it is only colonial money that counts. Also, in my family's nearly four hundered year stint in America we have lost more money than you can shake a stick at, one might have called many of my relatives the "impecunious genteel". This leaves me in the position where any money I acquire, and I do intend to do so, will be decidedly new, although I'm sure no one would think me nouveau. No, the key is taste, and at the moment, bad taste, Ms. Harrington's taste, seems to be quite in vogue.


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## VOLUNTEER (Jul 23, 2006)

Strange, I was in a J. Press store just the other day and noticed a number of customers who appeared to be of other ethnic heritage purchasing bow ties, club ties, braces, three-button jackets etc. Perhaps they should have been warned that such traditional merchandise was not for " Their type"


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

And this was written by a Harvard man who holds himself out to be a writer of some merit, worthy enough to prepare sequences of words for The Crimson? His opinions on dress and style have as much merit as the quality of his writing. Nihil.

Joe


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

VOLUNTEER said:


> Strange, I was in a J. Press store just the other day and noticed a number of customers who appeared to be of Asian or Jewish heritage purchasing bow ties, club ties, braces, three-button jackets etc. Perhaps they should have been warned that such traditional merchandise was not for " Their type"


Probably just the accountant and the tailor. (wink)

Actually, guys, I personally didn't read the post with a jaundiced eye. Better words...there always are with 20/20 hindsight.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Taliesin said:


> Maddox is right that there's a certain kind of vicious resentment towards what are seen as the vestiges of the WASP elite at Harvard. Here's a guide written by some students who are very angry about Harvard's past and its present (but not angry enough to decline their offers of admission):


What a hateful screed that link was! Notice the intellectual trickery of smearing the Harvard final clubs with the alleged "statistic" to the effect that all-male institutions were conducive to sexual assault without citing much to the effect that the Harvard clubs were guilty of such. Talk about "guilt by association"!

I'll have to ask my father-in-law if he was a member of any such clubs.

My hat is off to them for preserving their integrity and character rather than succumb to the PC demands of Harvard University to admit women.

I just hate the invasion by women of traditionally male institutions. I have had no use whatsoever for my prep school since they admitted girls. Likewise, I have never wanted to cast eyes on Balliol College, Oxford, since they went co-ed!

All this craven capitulation to feminist pressure is almost enough to make me want to root for Al-Quaeda!


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## HeimiesDuncan (Sep 14, 2006)

Now, I don't got much college or nuffin, but when I read that article it made me feel like I was being preached to as if I was illiterate.

I don't know much, and from time to time I like to pretend I do, but shouldn't an article published by an Ivy League school newspaper... you know... not sound like one of those write-in's from cosmo?

It just seems so... Huh... Out of place?

Maybe things have changed for the worse after all...


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

septa said:


> Maddox,
> I must take issue with your previous post. While I'm sure it was entirely unintended, it implied a certian hostility to certian ethnic groups which seems entirely unnecessary. We musn't forget the J.Press was founded by another ethnicity and that it now owned by another ethnicity. Brooks Brothers in its heyday was owned by another ethnicity. Equating traditional American clothing with WASPs, would in this light seem to be a mistake. I also wonder how many of the southern WASPs are really WISPs (white-irsh-scottish-protestants, ulstermen, and I know many an ulsterman who would resent very much being called and Anglo-Saxon) who are really Celtic? This theory seems shakier all the time. When one adds to this that many of our great trad icons are Catholic: John O'Hara, William F. Buckley Jr., RFK, and Daniel Patrick Moynihanm the notion that trad is exclusively WASPy seems almost ridiculious. Also there is the difficult to explain fact that graduates of America's great boarding schools almost all dress as if they are graduates of America's great rehab clinics.
> I might accept the claim about new money, but then this begs the question how old is old enough? In some circles anything after the Civil War is still on the newish side, it is only colonial money that counts. Also, in my family's nearly four hundered year stint in America we have lost more money than you can shake a stick at, one might have called many of my relatives the "impecunious genteel". This leaves me in the position where any money I acquire, and I do intend to do so, will be decidedly new, although I'm sure no one would think me nouveau. No, the key is taste, and at the moment, bad taste, Ms. Harrington's taste, seems to be quite in vogue.


Just because another ethnicity own a trad company, does not mean that most another ethnicity will dress trad.

I did not go to Harvard, but having attended an Epsicopal high schoo, and knowing a lot of people who attended various ivies and NESCACs who had gone to my high school or similar prep schools, I can tell you without a doubt that there is definite divide among the old money families, and the another ethnicities, and various new money types who were first generation.

The vast majority of the latter, do not think highly of WASPS who they think just got there because of legacy, and associate bow ties, as well as anything you consider trad clothing with the wasps. I am sure there are some New money types who do wear such gear, but they are just lumped together with the old WASPs by the same people.

I'm not saying this to be mean to any ethnic group. If you read my old posts, even though I am a WASP, I am no old money snob. However, I can tell you that anti-WASP bigotry has a lot to do with people who do not like pastel shirts, bow ties, or other items that y'all consider trad.

Sorry if that is politically incorrect, but it's the truth.


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## Spooter (Jul 15, 2006)

Allen said:


> Probably just the accountant and the tailor. (wink)


:icon_scratch:


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

As a (non-observant) person of Jewish heritage, married to a Wasp,and member of several mostly Protestant private clubs, I would like to remind members of this forum that the major Ivy League tailors and haberdashers in the past included not only J. Press but Chipp , also Jewish owned, along with Arthur Rosenberg and Rosenthal-Maretz.In addition, it seems to me that another ethnicity students these days tend to look more Trad than most other groups.I do deplore the message and language of the Harvard student articles, however.Let us perhaps keep these discussions focuse on style and taste from a sartorial standpoint.


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## lostinaustin (Jul 27, 2005)

At Harvard and schools of its ilk, anything not anti-class or retro-class is considered douchbaggery. A good guilty trustafarian sheds his prep school uniform and goes for the thrift store look (or at least the pop-utilitarian clothing at A&F).

By not shedding class prerogatives (I don't think ethnicity is much of a factor in this anymore, excelpt that the expectation of self hate is simply higher for waspy types) bow tie wearers, club members, etc. are not taking the correct side of the "battle"

Four notions seem to guide college wear:

comfort
pop culture sexual attractiveness
class struggle
group
identity

Thank God that Cambridge offers a superior school down the river a few clicks that isn't a full of loathing and self-loathing.


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

pfui.

hands up, everybody who didn't have a headful of idiotic notions when they were 19 or so.


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## Foghorn (Feb 2, 2005)

Bill Nye is also alum of Cornell! That little girl at The Crimson is obviously jaded & probably does little beyond her studies, drafting crude articles, & responding to emails. I imagine that it would serve Ms. Macho Anti-bowtie well to get out & go on a date if she is not too much of a ,ahem , haint. 
Laughingly,
F


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## Jay Gatsby (Jun 8, 2006)

Well, I still like my bow ties. To each their own!

Jay Gatsby


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

JLibourel said:


> What a hateful screed that link was! Notice the intellectual trickery of smearing the Harvard final clubs with the alleged "statistic" to the effect that all-male institutions were conducive to sexual assault without citing much to the effect that the Harvard clubs were guilty of such. Talk about "guilt by association"!
> 
> I'll have to ask my father-in-law if he was a member of any such clubs.
> 
> My hat is off to them for preserving their integrity and character rather than succumb to the PC demands of Harvard University to admit women.


Yes, that one is pretty bad. The one called "Rage: I'm a working-class queer Black woman" is perhaps worse, although it has the saving grace of going so far that it nearly reads like a parody:

On the whole, I think the antipathy of some students at Harvard towards traditional clothing stems from both class-hatred and animosity towards actual or perceived WASPs. The class-hatred is easy enough to get; the ethnic bias is, in my view, because (1) like it or not, Trad is associated with WASPs (hence much of the criticism of R.Lauren); and (2) unlike most other groups, expressing disdain towards WASPs is not looked down on in our society, instead it is ignored or even encouraged.

Consider the reaction that would likely occur if someone at the Crimson wrote that wearing ratty t-shirts was a sign of douchbaggery. "That's all many students can afford, etc." In fact, this was a big deal when the Crimson staff started writing about the horrors of some Harvard students running a maid service that offered to clean dorm rooms:

<<Harvard's student newspaper, The Crimson, runs editorial critical of DormAid, new service run by Harvard students to clean student dormitories and other living quarters; editorial calls for boycott of service, saying it could create tension among richer students who could afford service and others; service is brainchild of Harvard students Dave Eisenberg and Michael Kopko, who are offering it at Boston Univ, Princeton and elsewhere.>>


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

KentW said:


> Well, he wears his shirt collars a little too loose. Other than that, not much.


It's a common trait among well dressed scientists. One is constantly craning one's neck to peer through microscopes, or telescopes, or climbing around Van de Graff particle accelerators and such. It's a rather small conceit to functionality, in my opinion.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Taliesin said:


> On the whole, I think the antipathy of some students at Harvard towards traditional clothing stems from both class-hatred and animosity towards actual or perceived WASPs. The class-hatred is easy enough to get; the ethnic bias is, in my view, because (1) like it or not, Trad is associated with WASPs (hence much of the criticism of R.Lauren); and (2) unlike most other groups, expressing disdain towards WASPs is not looked down on in our society, instead it is ignored or even encouraged.


I understand what you and the others ar saying, but, I think there is far more going on than just WASP bashing. Yes, trad is associated with WASPs, and it is ok to bash WAPSs, (or any other group that is precieved to be powerful, like the Catholic Church) but I still think that people are ignoring how complicated the situation is. Traditional clothing, in the years of the post-war consensus were the clothes of everyone even vaguely linked, or who aspired to appear linked to the eastern "establishment". This group has always included more than just WASPs, I'm sorry to say. People no longer feel that the values this consensus was based upon are valid, and this applies as much to a super left wing Quaker, Episcopalian or UCC (nee, Congregationalist), as it does to a member of a Reform Temple. It is liberal, upper class protestants (i.e. William Sloane Coffin) who have been at the van of much of the left wing activity since FDR. The person who wrote this article could very well have gone to Andover. I mean, when I went to college, it was the kids from the Upper East Side who went to St. Grottlsex schools, with last names you might just recognize, who were the furthest from being trad. Many of the current adherents of Trad are not from particularly upper class or Old Northeastern backgrounds at all, John Bolton is the son of a fireman, and George Will, while the son of a professor, is from Illinois.

Rightly or wrongly, and it is wrongly I suspect, people are reacting to the precieved conformity and retrospective nature of the trad look. Yet this does not necessitate a reactionary response. In fact one could argue from a left wing perspective that traditional clothing 1) preserves the tradtitional crafts of the Outer Hebrides, 2) is made by well paid workers, who work in well regulated first world factories that don't put out lots of pollution, 3) because the clothes are not made to the whims of fashion they last longer and discourage waste ,4) they can be passed down from generation to generation, recycling 5) they are made from natural materials in a sustainible manner, 6) often they are customized and thus give a greater sense of the wearer's individuality 7) they are generously cut and do not encourage a "negative body image" 

Also, I'm not sure what you meant by point 1. Does the criticism of R.Lauren have anything to do with his ethnic background? I don't think so. As I an others have said, many of this country's traditional clothing merchants and tailors are Jewish. JACOBI Press any one? Lets just say his family isn't originally from Somersetshire. The criticism of Ralph has far more to do with his crass commercialism, and plastering logos all over everything, a sin which can be, and has been, commited by people from any ethnic background.

And on Finals Clubs, in theory I have no problem with them, in fact I love the idea of gentleman's clubs, but in practice they really are places where guys film drunk girls preforming sexual acts; not the sort of gentleman's clubs I had in mind! I've been to a finals club party and the behavior of the members was not gentlemanly at all. I've had friends go through Punch, and who bickered at P'ton. the thing is none of these clubs are what they used to be, if they every used to be anything at all, really just a lot of rich kids and a lot of coke. The clubs at Oxford, however, are entirely different and were, in my experience, far more gentlemanly.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

wheredidyougetthathat said:


> pfui.
> 
> hands up, everybody who didn't have a headful of idiotic notions when they were 19 or so.


Got me there! (And if I knew how to post smilies, I'd post the blushing one.)


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

septa said:


> I understand what you and the others ar saying, but, I think there is far more going on than just WASP bashing. Yes, trad is associated with WASPs, and it is ok to bash WAPSs, (or any other group that is precieved to be powerful, like the Catholic Church) but I still think that people are ignoring how complicated the situation is. Traditional clothing, in the years of the post-war consensus were the clothes of everyone even vaguely linked, or who aspired to appear linked to the eastern "establishment". This group has always included more than just WASPs, I'm sorry to say. People no longer feel that the values this consensus was based upon are valid.


These are good points, but what I was saying is that Trad is associated almost exclusively with WASPs in the popular imagination, not that this association is accurate. We know better, but many do not. I think you are correct that the Establishment consensus has been pretty severely undermined, and it is true that many members of ECUSA and other similar institutions led the way. Those leaders are mostly gone now, and with the Establishment consensus undermined, it's hard to see what will or should replace it. However, the bashing of traditional clothing like that seen in the Crimson article is not likely sophisticated enough to be seen as an explicit or intended critique of the (mostly-former) ruling class and its aesthetic. It uses words like "douchbag" and is probably based more on visceral dislike than on any kind of philosophical or ideological perspective. So why does the author believe that expressions of visceral disdain for this one particular group are so acceptable? Probably because she knows that this hatred is not stigmatized, and that members of the group she thinks she's referring to won't fight back and are even expected to join in the hate-fest by being self-deprecating and passive. So yeah, I think WASP-bashing has a lot to do with it, particularly when we're talking about unsophisticated arguments like those in the Crimson article.



> Rightly or wrongly, and it is wrongly I suspect, people are reacting to the precieved conformity and retrospective nature of the trad look. Yet this does not necessitate a reactionary response. In fact one could argue from a left wing perspective that traditional clothing 1) preserves the tradtitional crafts of the Outer Hebrides, 2) is made by well paid workers, who work in well regulated first world factories that don't put out lots of pollution, 3) because the clothes are not made to the whims of fashion they last longer and discourage waste ,4) they can be passed down from generation to generation, recycling 5) they are made from natural materials in a sustainible manner, 6) often they are customized and thus give a greater sense of the wearer's individuality 7) they are generously cut and do not encourage a "negative body image"


I agree 100%. These are wonderful points. However, they would probably not convince Ms. Crimson to stop referring to bow-tie wearers as "douchbags". People like that probably enjoy the rare opportunity to disparage a group without getting in trouble way too much to bother with reason.



> Also, I'm not sure what you meant by point 1. Does the criticism of R.Lauren have anything to do with his ethnic background? I don't think so. As I an others have said, many of this country's traditional clothing merchants and tailors are Jewish. JACOBI Press any one? Lets just say his family isn't originally from Somersetshire. The criticism of Ralph has far more to do with his crass commercialism, and plastering logos all over everything, a sin which can be, and has been, commited by people from any ethnic background.


I disagree. Much of the criticism of Lauren is that he's somehow a fraud because he is Jewish but has promoted a WASP/British aesthetic. I don't buy this, and your observations about Press are on point, but notice how many will refer to Lauren as "Ralph Lifshitz" whenever the opportunity arises. This is, I think, intended to bring his Jewishness into focus and to contrast it with the WASP ethnic origin of the look he has promoted and capitalized upon. I think the book "Genuine Authentic" addresses this. No one ever says, by contrast, that they are going over to "Jacobi Press" to get a blazer.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

maddox said:


> They are hated and resented by the rest of their peers, who probably see bowties, blue blazers and anything waspy as representing "douchebaggery." Think of the Order of the Ball and Shaft in the movie PCU


That's more or less true.

Depends on the school. Small schools in New England, in my opinion, are less hostile to such people, since they are filled with them. As a buddy of mine at law school and I have always said, the NESCAC is the new Ivy League. We have everyone who use to go to Harvard and Yale.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

JLibourel said:


> What a hateful screed that link was! Notice the intellectual trickery of smearing the Harvard final clubs with the alleged "statistic" to the effect that all-male institutions were conducive to sexual assault without citing much to the effect that the Harvard clubs were guilty of such. Talk about "guilt by association"!
> 
> I'll have to ask my father-in-law if he was a member of any such clubs.
> 
> My hat is off to them for preserving their integrity and character rather than succumb to the PC demands of Harvard University to admit women.


I just asked my father-in-law if he were a member of a final club, and he told me that he was indeed a member of the Spee club. It had a very athletic orientation, he told me. You pretty much had to be on one of the university teams. He was sponsored into the Spee by one of his pals on the swimming team of whom you may have heard tell--a guy by the name of John Fitzgerald Kennedy.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

septa said:


> And on Finals Clubs, in theory I have no problem with them, in fact I love the idea of gentleman's clubs, but in practice they really are places where guys film drunk girls preforming sexual acts; not the sort of gentleman's clubs I had in mind! I've been to a finals club party and the behavior of the members was not gentlemanly at all. I've had friends go through Punch, and who bickered at P'ton. the thing is none of these clubs are what they used to be, if they ever used to be anything at all, really just a lot of rich kids and a lot of coke. The clubs at Oxford, however, are entirely different and were, in my experience, far more gentlemanly.


very true, same with most fraternities.

can;t really blame them though.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Coolidge24 said:


> the NESCAC is the new Ivy League. We have everyone who use to go to Harvard and Yale.


If you add a few other schools-Haverford, St. Lawrence, H-S, and the like then I'd really agree...even the preppy handbook made this point back in the 80s, I believe it even mentioned in passing our archrival (Swat) and our sister school (Bryn Mawr)... When I applied to Princeton my interviewer who was class of '50 said, "you're just the sort of man we would have wanted to come here 50 or 60 years ago", needless to say, I didn't get in. 
Nice post Taliesin.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

So would these nitwits consider Big Bill a douchebag? Or does he get an Irony Exemption?


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

This "woman's" "writing" seems as though it is from a high school fashion column rather than a harvard newsletter but I cant say I totally disagree. I respect everyones preference to wear whatever they want and applaud those who do so, however, for me, bowties outside of formal wear just dont look attractive, on anyone. I just can't break the association between a high-strung, anxious, nerdy fellow and a bowtie.

MrR


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I, unfortunately agree with Mr. Rogers about bow ties most of the time.

The article has a certain snotty, "I know it all" tone that is irritating.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Patrick06790 said:


> So would these nitwits consider Big Bill a douchebag? Or does he get an Irony Exemption?


No matter; that's one _ugly_ bow tie. :icon_pale:


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

septa said:


> I understand what you and the others ar saying, but, I think there is far more going on than just WASP bashing. Yes, trad is associated with WASPs, and it is ok to bash WAPSs, (or any other group that is precieved to be powerful, like the Catholic Church) but I still think that people are ignoring how complicated the situation is. Traditional clothing, in the years of the post-war consensus were the clothes of everyone even vaguely linked, or who aspired to appear linked to the eastern "establishment". This group has always included more than just WASPs, I'm sorry to say. People no longer feel that the values this consensus was based upon are valid, and this applies as much to a super left wing Quaker, Episcopalian or UCC (nee, Congregationalist), as it does to a member of a Reform Temple. It is liberal, upper class protestants (i.e. William Sloane Coffin) who have been at the van of much of the left wing activity since FDR. The person who wrote this article could very well have gone to Andover. I mean, when I went to college, it was the kids from the Upper East Side who went to St. Grottlsex schools, with last names you might just recognize, who were the furthest from being trad. Many of the current adherents of Trad are not from particularly upper class or Old Northeastern backgrounds at all, John Bolton is the son of a fireman, and George Will, while the son of a professor, is from Illinois.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, and it is wrongly I suspect, people are reacting to the precieved conformity and retrospective nature of the trad look. Yet this does not necessitate a reactionary response. In fact one could argue from a left wing perspective that traditional clothing 1) preserves the tradtitional crafts of the Outer Hebrides, 2) is made by well paid workers, who work in well regulated first world factories that don't put out lots of pollution, 3) because the clothes are not made to the whims of fashion they last longer and discourage waste ,4) they can be passed down from generation to generation, recycling 5) they are made from natural materials in a sustainible manner, 6) often they are customized and thus give a greater sense of the wearer's individuality 7) they are generously cut and do not encourage a "negative body image"
> 
> ...


I'm not suggesting that only WASPs (and I guess I include this to include Southern WISPs, ) but to the extent that people dress tradly, it is associated with WASPdom.

For example, I have heard people say all the Jews in Charleston, SC act like WASPs because they wear blue blazers, and striped ties to synogague, dress their kids in seersucker during the Summer, and enjoy sailing.

Similarly, people who look like bohemians from elite families, usually do it because either
a) they are rebelling against their family (thin the son in Wedding Crashers) or
b) their family has ceased to

People have brought up the Kennedy's and Buckley's as examples of non WASP trads, and though the Kennedy's seemed to hate traditional.

If you need proof of this resentment, look at these various definitions that people submitted to urban dictionary about my Alma Matta
-----------
the university of virginia....a school where all the students look like they just walked out of a Gap commercial. the girls dress like they are forty years old and then guys and arrogant bastards. you wait in line for an hour to possibly get into a frat that plays only madonna and other gay 80's music. basicly, the WORST place to go to college.

Lindz: "I have a friend that goes to UVa."
Kelly: "Oh, he must be a douche."
Lindz: "This is true."
----------------

UVA - Uppity Virgin Asylum (none of you are ever getting laid unless its by accident)

A school full of cookie-cut preps who are taught by teachers that somehow they'll all rule the world. The majority of white males there are issued clothes from Abercrombie and Fitch along with penis enlargers and a How-To book on fitting in, while all other races there try to emulate them. Fraternities consist of burnt out alcoholics trying to have sex with ugly girls, all the time touting their future as rich economists who will ultimately come to embrace the idea of suicide when they realize money can't buy friends and families. Most of all, as the other definition entries attest to, UVA students spend the rest of their lives trying to validate their pitiful snotty existences by downing the other well-known Virginia schools that actually have students with intelligence, personalities, and humility. 
(Please note: another ethnicity prep males at UVA are the most pathetic people on earth. Please let them know that expensive clothes and cars do NOT make you better in bed, nor do they increase penis size. You are JOKES.)

Just look around for the people with their noses in the air. No worries, they'll develop back problems later in life.
-----------------

Yes, these people mix up gap and abercrombie with Polo and Brooks brothers, but the point is true there is resentment for another ethnicity who have any wasp qualities.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

How did we get off on this racial tangent, anyway? Can't we just stick to bashing women?


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

maddox said:


> Yes, these people mix up gap and abercrombie with Polo and Brooks brothers, but the point is true there is resentment for Asians who have any wasp qualities.


mmm, i wonder where that resentment came/originated from, since i'm Asian. I don't hang out with my Asian fellows that much, but every time I do, I see a sea of abercrombie and fitch with cargo shorts, which make me cringe. People usually associate the moose with douchebaggery, so this could be the reason. However, I wouldn't associate moose with WASP-ness.

I would also like to point out that the resentment only occurs when the said Asian is a male. Asian females in over-the-top preppy outfits don't really get picked on.

P.S. the majority of uva students don't sport brooks brothers, most of them want EVERYTHING with the horse. It's quite rare to see a well-made ocbd without the multicolored horse.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Untilted said:


> the majority of uva students don't sport brooks brothers, most of them want EVERYTHING with the horse. It's quite rare to see a well-made ocbd without the multicolored horse.


With Eljo's right down the street? Sacrilege, I tell you...sacrilege.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

Eljo's doesn't carry brooks brothers, I believe. Oh, and you will be surprised by how many male students have never heard of/been to Eljo's. Most people think of suits when Eljo's is mentioned, and college students don't buy many suits at all. 

Kids wear polo because the horse is a symbol, that says "I'm rich". How can girls know you are rich unless you sport a horse or an alligator? I know it's stupid, but guys (no matter rich or not) in their teens and early twenties are quite obsessed with brands, rather than quality. It's quite pathetic. The really old money ones would actually sport well fitted tartan flannel shirts tucked into their cords with duck-embroidered belts instead of ill-fit (averaged sleeve lengths, shoulder yokes draping over their arms) shirts with ponies.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Untitled I think has got it, its not that people are wearing brooks, people wouldn't notice that, its that people wear Polo and A&F. 
Back to bowties, for formal wear I'm sure this lady would find the whole concept far to phallocentric, but does she think that this looks better than a bowtie?


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

I don't think it's an anti-WASP bias--I think it's anti-Republican/conservative.

Mr. Tucker Carlson has perhaps irrevocably associated the bow tie (and trad dress in general) in the minds of his contemporaries-and-younger with youthful political conservatism, which in the minds of Ivy League college students is roughly analogous to puppy strangling. Jon Stewart's insults sealed the coffin on social acceptance of this look among the young and hip.

Anyone remeber the Curb Your Enthusiasm episode in which Larry wears a bow tie and blazer (he looked great) to a fund raiser and alienated all of his liberal friends? People even started calling him "Tucker," in the same tone you might call someone "Attila the Hun."

In the mass young liberal consciousness, a tradly young man in a bow tie means "Bush-supporting reactionary pr*ck."

Also, keep in mind the author is a college-age writer--these kinds of provocative, hyperbolic statements are to be expected, as she struggles to form an identity, get reader reaction, etc. Once life has kicked her around a little she'll probably become more measured and reasonable.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Brownshoe said:


> I don't think it's an anti-WASP bias--I think it's anti-Republican/conservative.


You said in one sentance what I couldn't say in pages. Well done sir.


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

Brownshoe said:


> I don't think it's an anti-WASP bias--I think it's anti-Republican/conservative.
> 
> Mr. Tucker Carlson has perhaps irrevocably associated the bow tie (and trad dress in general) in the minds of his contemporaries-and-younger with youthful political conservatism, which in the minds of Ivy League college students is roughly analogous to puppy strangling. Jon Stewart's insults sealed the coffin on social acceptance of this look among the young and hip.
> 
> ...


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Chicken and the egg is true, but they don't insult you by saying you look like Arthur Schlesinger, John Paul Stevens or Archibald Cox, who are liberals.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

!. There are a heckuva more Trad, ocbd and bowtie wearing men in the very liberal Democratic cities of Boston, NY, Philadelphia and D.C. than in, say, Idaho or Utah. 2. Tucker carlson now is a no-tie wearing pundit-perhaps appealling to the Nascar crowd? 3. In all surveys I have seen, the faculty at the leading boarding/prep scools are decidedly liberal in politics.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Untilted said:


> Eljo's doesn't carry brooks brothers, I believe. Oh, and you will be surprised by how many male students have never heard of/been to Eljo's. Most people think of suits when Eljo's is mentioned, and college students don't buy many suits at all.
> 
> Kids wear polo because the horse is a symbol, that says "I'm rich". How can girls know you are rich unless you sport a horse or an alligator? I know it's stupid, but guys (no matter rich or not) in their teens and early twenties are quite obsessed with brands, rather than quality. It's quite pathetic. The really old money ones would actually sport well fitted tartan flannel shirts tucked into their cords with duck-embroidered belts instead of ill-fit (averaged sleeve lengths, shoulder yokes draping over their arms) shirts with ponies.


I am sure among the really old money families, their young teens wear the dreaded pony due to peer pressure. They just dont tell their families.

Hearing you talk about the tartan flannel shirts tucked into cords and duck embroidered belts took me back to my own high school days. Surely it is mostly LL Bean? That is what I picture! Maybe I have to place an order and get some new fall flannels and cords!


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

maddox said:


> I don't know about Harvard per se, but a lot of these elite schools in the northeast are filled with Asians and Jews (Who someone with the name harrington does not appear to be) and various middle class to new money types who do not tend to look like, act like, or personally like the old Waspy ivy league feel. . . .





maddox said:


> I did not go to Harvard, but having attended an Epsicopal high schoo, and knowing a lot of people who attended various ivies and NESCACs who had gone to my high school or similar prep schools, I can tell you without a doubt that there is definite divide among the old money families, and the Jews, Asians, and various new money types who were first generation.


I certainly don't wish to wade into this discussion, but it is interesting to note how Maddox's views seem to be a product of his generation (which I assume to be a recent one). Historically, Jews in the Ivy leagues were rarely new money. They were almost always strivers, meaning high academic achievers from poor or middle-class backgrounds looking to advance themselves by getting the best education America had to offer (this is a role now often filled by Asian students). There are many books dealing with how the Ivies, Yale and Harvard in particular, tried to adjust admission standards away from academic criteria in order to ensure that there wouldn't be too many Jews (just as you see the same process happening with Asians today). The resentment, while still class based, was not that the Jews were new-money rather than old, but simply that they were not-our-kind-dear. The few upper class Jewish families, and there certainly were a rare few, faced those issues to a much smaller degree.

The fact that so many of these Jews became economically successful, led to the Jews on campus, their progeny, now being referred to by Maddox as nouveau riche or social climbers, whereas before, they were merely the unwashed.

EDIT: I just read the Crimson article that started this discussion. My God, it's a joke fellas. The entire column is written as a snarky humor column, not real fashion advice. It is meant to be taken even less seriously than Randy Cohen's Ethicist column in the New York Times magazine.


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## Nordicnomad (Jul 11, 2006)

Ooooh. Nice job slipping that in about Randy Cohen. I guess I am pretty slow on the uptake. I used to get all bent out of shape when I heard him on NPR or read his articles. Now that I know his tongue is firmly planted in his cheek I can laugh along instead of scratching my head and spluttering in indignation.

Bow ties are a hard thing to pull off these days. The social (and political) climate in my little town is about as far from Cambridge as you can get, but the reception were I too attempt a bow tie (other than the 31st of this month) would be no less skeptical.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

Nordicnomad said:


> Ooooh. Nice job slipping that in about Randy Cohen. I guess I am pretty slow on the uptake. I used to get all bent out of shape when I heard him on NPR or read his articles. Now that I know his tongue is firmly planted in his cheek I can laugh along instead of scratching my head and spluttering in indignation.


Well . . . maybe I am assuming too much. Perhaps Cohen and his editors really think he is an ethicist and I am the only one who thinks he is merely a humorist (and not a very good one). If he is serious, then you are right to get bent out of shape - his ethical reasoning is often very shallow and he frequently reaches what I think is the wrong result.


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## AsherNM (Apr 3, 2006)

"I think the fact that this opinion is that of a woman who bills herself as a "fashion columnist" pretty much says it all. She probably doesn't like boxer shorts, either. Remember, guys...when you let women pick out your clothes, you usually wind up looking a lot like a woman. "
I'd agree, but here at Cornell, it's nearly always the girls sporting the wool sweaters, the duffel coats (even tweed ones), etc.

maddox, how about a quote of The Protestant Establishment to the contrary:
"Much like Marquand's ironic treatment of the Protestant establishment, Kaufmann's saga of Richard Amsterdam certainly seems overimpressed with the superficial aspects of upper-class life. Yet, to the outsider, perhaps, these may be the very things that do matter. In this connection, for instance, it is of interest that the autobiographies of Alfred E. Smith, James A. Farley and Edward Flynn [not WASPs - Irish Catholic] all emphasize their efforts to be properly dressed. One observes this same pattern among today's college students: on the Main Line, in Philadelphia, one is impressed that the students at Haverford College, an old and venerable [and WASPish] Quaker institution, are almost invariably clothed in a most informal, if not downright sloppy, manner, often sporting straggly, adolescent beards in various stages of growth. A bit further out on the Lancaster Pike, on the other hand, at a newer and rapidly expanding Catholic [ie, not WASPs but immigrant children] institution, Villanova University, the students wear coats and neckties, and always appear to be clean-shaven. Similarly, at the University of Pennsylvania in the city, the Jewish fraternities require their brothers to wear coats and neckties, at least in the classroom, while it is often the old-stock Protestants who cultivate the beatnik style."

Not even the WASPs (ie. no one) dress tradly here.
It's funny how everyone forgets about the Italians and the Irish as immigrants, but the Jews remain. 
Heh, it would be impossible for the Jews not to have contributed to Trad, considering that they dominated the garment industry.

I see no reason to blaming an individual or a group for not dressing tradly, unless he/it have explicitly chosen not to, which is generally not the case. That said, the average, or better the median, white kid is more tradly than the median nonwhite. As for Jews specifically, I couldn't say much, except that the average difference is probably small (in either direction), at least here.

"Much of the criticism of Lauren is that he's somehow a fraud because he is Jewish but has promoted a WASP/British aesthetic. "
I don't see that on the forum.

See ( search Jews vs. Episcopalians https://inductivist.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_inductivist_archive.html ) for a few interesting statistical comparisons of Jews and Episcoplians.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

AsherNM said:


> One observes this same pattern among today's college students: on the Main Line, in Philadelphia, one is impressed that the students at Haverford College, an old and venerable [and WASPish] Quaker institution, are almost invariably clothed in a most informal, if not downright sloppy, manner, often sporting straggly, adolescent beards in various stages of growth.


This is the greatest post ever. Someone else quoting the master, E.Digby Baltzell, and quoting Prof. Baltzell on my alma mater. Really, a more perfect post cannot be made. Perhaps the part in Puritan Boston Quaker Philadelphia where he compliments the 'Ford would be better, but really this is great. This statement could have been made yesterday. The school still has far more prep schoolers than most other elite collages yet, the description of the facial hair is perfect. I'd read this before but completely forgotten. AsherNM, mad props, and I hope you see from my previous posts that I agree with your statements about, well everything. Remember, boarding school = gross l.l. bean flannel shirt with vomit stains on it, flip flops and dirty white baseball hat.

Cheers,


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

septa said:


> This is the greatest post ever. Someone else quoting the master, E.Digby Baltzell, and quoting Prof. Baltzell on my alma mater. Really, a more perfect post cannot be made. Perhaps the part in Puritan Boston Quaker Philadelphia where he compliments the 'Ford would be better, but really this is great. This statement could have been made yesterday. The school still has far more prep schoolers than most other elite collages yet, the description of the facial hair is perfect. I'd read this before but completely forgotten. AsherNM, mad props, and I hope you see from my previous posts that I agree with your statements about, well everything. Remember, boarding school = gross l.l. bean flannel shirt with vomit stains on it, flip flops and dirty white baseball hat.
> 
> Cheers,


I concur as far as the Main Line as my friends from there in college (hailing from towns such as Wynnewood, Bryn Mawr, and Philadelphia's Chestnut Hill) all were/are just like this. One, a talented athlete, basically wore only a fleece warmup and exercise shorts most of the year. Another allowed his hair to grow over his ears, joined the ultimate frisbee team, and has been known to sport an earring. Another was also an athlete, and basically a druggie.

The funny thing though was that at my college when these 3 individuals needed to dress up ie for winter formal or the [Silly name my school used instead of Christmas] Party in December, the trad within would re-emerge, out would come the repp ties, etc. It was funny to see, because you would never know they owned this stuff otherwise, but suddenly they would look better than most people on campus!

Contrary to Main Liners, the folks from CT and MA seemed more inclined to enjoy being somewhat presentable. No one was wearing coat and tie of course and there were plenty of untucked shirts, but these folks were more likely to wear loafers around, or oxford shirts, and sportcoats at times.

I don't know what all of that means but the regional differences were interesting.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Baltzell--still good reading, after all these years.

I suppose it's a hopelessly and endlessly middle-class striver sort of thing to want to look nice and care about clothes/appearance. Fine, then: such that I am. I guess.

The "poor soul; look how much he cares about looking a certain way; must be a poor middle class American" thing is an interesting and yet potentially vicious sort of snobbery. Probably comes from both above and below. And almost certainly within, among middle-class types who find any sort of striving or aspirationalism to be either pathetic or just plain too much hard work.

One would figure that if 'ol Digby--an authentically upper middle class "patrician"--could get away with lamenting and even condemning the loss of standards (both aesthetic and otherwise) related to class, then such lament/condemnation would be acceptable. But not so. Nothing is more uncomfortable for most Americans than a discussion of class. It's easier to deny that classes (in America) exist at all.


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*I'm dreaming...*



dpihl said:


> Asian females in over-the-top preppy outfits don't really get picked on...
> 
> Asian females in over-the-top preppy ooouutfitsssss.....
> ...
> ...


lost in thoughts.... lost in thoughts... lost in thoughts................

I wonder what your mother is wearing... let's pick on her...:idea:

Lost in thoughts.... lost in thoughts... lost in thoughts................

Oh...where I am now? In the 18th century perhaps... still lost in thoughts...


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Baltzell didn't seem to mind middle class strivers who try and dress well and behave like gentleman (I suppose some might place me in this category) too much. He loved Arthur Ashe who would seem to fit this to a t. 

Cooly--I didn't grow up on the Main Line, but I have of friends and family from there, and went to college there, and the thing is, Main Liners want to be forgotten and left alone. That's why they live in Philadelphia. Money is hidden behind a sort of self-effacing Quakerish modesty. They go to shools called Friends Central, The Episcopal Academy, William Penn Charter or The Haverford School, they simply say what they or where they are are. Most people who don't slavishly check the US News lists still haven't heard of Haverford, and the prefered Ivy League school is the University of Pennsylvania, which sounds a lot like the name of a state school, perfectly descriptive, but un-romantic. Princeton and Harvard sound so much more aristocratic, no? How much more generic of a name can you get than UPenn? People forget about Philadelphia, they under-rate, Philadelphia, and most Philadelphians like this. Then one day, your sweat pants and Patigonia wearing frined will invite you to thier house and it will be a three hundered year old farm with horses, a tennis court and a park like gardens and they will break out the grey flannels and blazer and shave the awful beard to have dinner with lockjaw afflicted grandparents. Suddenly you will realize that thier common English/Wesh sounding last name is one and the same as a bank, college dorm, town, or county...very strange. I prefer the New England look that is a little more put together.


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## malinda (Aug 25, 2002)

*Gentlemen:*

*Going forward please restrict yourself to comments on your own ethnicity unless such comments are in defense of or complimentary. Please refrain from ethnocentric generalization and cease any conduct which may be perceived as bashing of another's ethnicity. *

*The same applies to religions.*

*And the same goes for GENDER, dammit.*

*I hope I have made myself quite clear.*

*Malinda*


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Right on, Malinda!:icon_smile:


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## mendozar (Dec 13, 2005)

*Couldn't help but think of...*



septa said:


> Baltzell didn't seem to mind middle class strivers who try and dress well and behave like gentleman (I suppose some might place me in this category) too much. He loved Arthur Ashe who would seem to fit this to a t.
> 
> Cooly--I didn't grow up on the Main Line, but I have of friends and family from there, and went to college there, and the thing is, Main Liners want to be forgotten and left alone. That's why they live in Philadelphia. Money is hidden behind a sort of self-effacing Quakerish modesty. They go to shools called Friends Central, The Episcopal Academy, William Penn Charter or The Haverford School, they simply say what they or where they are are. Most people who don't slavishly check the US News lists still haven't heard of Haverford, and the prefered Ivy League school is the University of Pennsylvania, which sounds a lot like the name of a state school, perfectly descriptive, but un-romantic. Princeton and Harvard sound so much more aristocratic, no? How much more generic of a name can you get than UPenn? People forget about Philadelphia, they under-rate, Philadelphia, and most Philadelphians like this. Then one day, your sweat pants and Patigonia wearing frined will invite you to thier house and it will be a three hundered year old farm with horses, a tennis court and a park like gardens and they will break out the grey flannels and blazer and shave the awful beard to have dinner with lockjaw afflicted grandparents. Suddenly you will realize that thier common English/Wesh sounding last name is one and the same as a bank, college dorm, town, or county...very strange. I prefer the New England look that is a little more put together.


Wow, this reminds me exactly of Finny from "A Separate Peace." There is a scene where Gene visits Finny's home and it's completely different from what you'd expect: in contrast to his carefree and crazy personality, his house is completely serious and conservative. (A slightly parallel personage is there in Curtis Sittenfeld's "Prep," whose name escapes me. But this character is framed as a socially awkward and sartorially challenged little girl who you would not think was the daughter of a Forbes 400 father)

I also think there is an incentive to dress down in public as the upper classes tend to be derided in an egalitarian liberal democracy. Bury the class signifiers in public (like the bow tie). Fortunately, in enclaves like St. Tropez, Monaco (for the Europeans), Palm Beach, Greenwich, the Upper East Side (for the Americans), you can feel free to do as you wish. There's a simple rule that kids grow up with that basically goes, "don't talk about your own money and don't show it" lest your "friends" only like you for your money and, even worse, become jealous.

I think articles such as the one mentioned in this thread, create the dynamics I have described. It kind of reminds me of Jefferson (a man of the people who inherited acres of land and slaves as a teenager), TR (the rough rider who was nevertheless a Roosevelt) or George Bush 43 (the Texan cowboy from Kennepunkport).


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

septa said:


> Baltzell didn't seem to mind middle class strivers who try and dress well and behave like gentleman (I suppose some might place me in this category) too much. He loved Arthur Ashe who would seem to fit this to a t.
> 
> Cooly--I didn't grow up on the Main Line, but I have of friends and family from there, and went to college there, and the thing is, Main Liners want to be forgotten and left alone. That's why they live in Philadelphia. Money is hidden behind a sort of self-effacing Quakerish modesty. They go to shools called Friends Central, The Episcopal Academy, William Penn Charter or The Haverford School, they simply say what they or where they are are. Most people who don't slavishly check the US News lists still haven't heard of Haverford, and the prefered Ivy League school is the University of Pennsylvania, which sounds a lot like the name of a state school, perfectly descriptive, but un-romantic. Princeton and Harvard sound so much more aristocratic, no? How much more generic of a name can you get than UPenn? People forget about Philadelphia, they under-rate, Philadelphia, and most Philadelphians like this. Then one day, your sweat pants and Patigonia wearing frined will invite you to thier house and it will be a three hundered year old farm with horses, a tennis court and a park like gardens and they will break out the grey flannels and blazer and shave the awful beard to have dinner with lockjaw afflicted grandparents. Suddenly you will realize that thier common English/Wesh sounding last name is one and the same as a bank, college dorm, town, or county...very strange. I prefer the New England look that is a little more put together.


Yes...so we have observed precisely the same thing. It really is its own little culture.


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*I must be a knee-jerk though...interesting*



dpihl said:


> How well do you know my mother?
> 
> ---no dear, I was dreaming. Did you read my title?
> 
> ...


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

rsmeyer said:


> !. There are a heckuva more Trad, ocbd and bowtie wearing men in the very liberal Democratic cities of Boston, NY, Philadelphia and D.C. than in, say, Idaho or Utah. 2. Tucker carlson now is a no-tie wearing pundit-perhaps appealling to the Nascar crowd? 3. In all surveys I have seen, the faculty at the leading boarding/prep scools are decidedly liberal in politics.


A lot of people seem to mispercieve waspy preppiness with conservatism.

I hear people who don't know better complain how Georgetown is so conservative and they base that on the fact that people there were a lot of polo and drive fancy cars.

That being said, please compare the way people dress at a rich private school in the south like Wofford, Vanderbilt, or Washington and Lee to 99% of all northern private schools.

Compare the Gameday attire at Ole Miss or Alabama to Harvard or Boston College.

Walk down the street in Charleston compared to Cambridge. You get my point.

At least among rich people, people are definitely more trad in the conservative south east than the north east.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Coolidge24 said:


> That's more or less true.
> 
> Depends on the school. Small schools in New England, in my opinion, are less hostile to such people, since they are filled with them. As a buddy of mine at law school and I have always said, the NESCAC is the new Ivy League. We have everyone who use to go to Harvard and Yale.


Williams is what the Ivy League used to be like before it went downhill. :icon_smile_wink:

Go Ephs!


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Maddox: My point being that it is cultural, not political opinions that determine how one dresses.


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Nature Nurture Again? We had that for leftovers last night!*



rsmeyer said:


> Maddox: My point being that it is cultural, not political opinions that determine how one dresses.


True enough. But don't you think sometimes it's a conscious decision to dress a certain way, and not strictly the environment one is brought up in?


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## Speas (Mar 11, 2004)

dpihl said:


> True enough. But don't you think sometimes it's a conscious decision to dress a certain way, and not strictly the environment one is brought up in?


I think this is self evident - not for everyone, but some. Politics in the form of government i.e., laissez fair vs. socialism sense, may not always be a strong factor, but world view is. The lefty patrician New Englanders often held up as liberal Trads/Ivys may favor socialistic government policies, but typically do not favor social revolution to the detriment of their social standing, so they would be conservative in that sense.

If one has a conservative/traditional worldview, one would be inclinded to favor conservative/traditional dress, whatever one thinks that is. What Trad/Ivy dress says to the world is obviously debatable here but to me it is plainly conservative/traditional and an outlet for expression of my beliefs and loyaties.


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

Speas said:


> What Trad/Ivy dress says to the world is obviously debatable here but to me it is plainly conservative/traditional and an outlet for expression of my beliefs and loyaties.


I agreed. But some people only want to express their beliefs and loyalties--they dont allow others to express theirs. For example, if I were to disagree with an argument, then they acted like I sound like their mothers.

Very sad, indeed.

...from paris


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Did I miss something...? 

I thought this thread was about college-age dimwits who hate bow ties, and the men who couldn't care less?


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

The original thread opened the opportunity to discuss wider related topics.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

*To Speas*

Well said. I am a social liberal, but certainly not a revolutionary or radical. The Eastern Establishment-the fount of Trad-is very populated with people like that, perhaps out of a sense of _noblesse oblige._ I deplore the 60's radicals-and their attire-and feel they were revolting (in more ways than one) against the Liberal Establishment, not the Republicans or conservatives. Yours in tradition.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

"If one has a conservative/traditional worldview, one would be inclinded to favor conservative/traditional dress, whatever one thinks that is. What Trad/Ivy dress says to the world is obviously debatable here but to me it is plainly conservative/traditional and an outlet for expression of my beliefs and loyaties."
--Speas


Right-O, Speas.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

rsmeyer said:


> Well said. I am a social liberal, but certainly not a revolutionary or radical. The Eastern Establishment-the fount of Trad-is very populated with people like that, perhaps out of a sense of _noblesse oblige._ I deplore the 60's radicals-and their attire-and feel they were revolting (in more ways than one) against the Liberal Establishment, not the Republicans or conservatives. Yours in tradition.


We find ourselves in agreemet here. And yes, revolting they were.


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*...Please*



septa said:


> We find ourselves in agreemet here. And yes, revolting they were.


Originally Posted by *dpihl* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=425013#post425013 
_I'm sorry, what were we talking about?

_
--Hello dpihl,

Please stop sending me private messages trying to get what u want. I've said case is closed! so...be polite! THANK U.

...from paris


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*With apologies*



septa said:


> We find ourselves in agreemet here. And yes, revolting they were.


Interesting that the revolt took so long to overwhelm to Ivy League schools. In the sixties it seemed like the revolt was isolated to a few radical students (and I don't mean "radical" in a complimentary way).

This perception is reinforced by the comments of a friend who was in law school at Harvard at the time. He has degrees from Oxford, Harvard, and Columbia, all from about that time period. He tells me that the law schools were largely unaffected by those revolting students.

However, Mr. Bork's book (Slouching Toward Gomorrah) tells a few stories from the Yale campus that challenge the notion that this was all very isolated there.

My Father-in-law was working in the medical clinic to pay his way through Harvard during the sixties. He tells of a student protest that turned into a police action there. Apparently, the medical staff that came to administer aid to the student victims of police brutality did not come from the Harvard Clinic. In fact, he noted that many of them got their uniforms and stretchers from the drama department (there were markings on the stretchers to confirm this).

Several students came into the clinic and begged my father-in-law to help them find a back door, or some way to aviod going on camera. Apparently if their parents saw that they had been involved in the phony protest, they would have been cut off. You know, pay their own way through Harvard? Yeah. What a concept.

Nowadays, it is clear that the avant garde has become the old guard, and the Ivy league is the best place to be indoctrinated by communist radicals.

Gang, I know I made a few off color remarks on this thread previously, and I have sought diligently to make amends for my many faux pas.

Before this thread marches down the page, and gets lost in the archives, I feel as though I need to apologize to all of you for my off color remarks.

I don't sincerely regret the fact that Harvard went co-ed. I was merely joking about this, and have deleted my off-color remarks.

With reguards to Untilted's comment, I need to say one thing.

There is a very clear distinction in my mind between Asians in over the top preppy clothing, and Americans' with Asian ancestry who wear over-the-top preppy clothing.

Most of my best friends are Americans with Asian ancestry. I feel we have a common bond. Some of them are second generation Americans, and some are fourth. Some even tell me stories about being sent to the Topaz concentration camps as children (during World War Two).

I don't know _any _Americans of Asian descent who wear over-the-top preppy clothing, so I wasn't even thinking about them when I joked about Untilted's comment.

I know a lot of Asians who wear over-the-top preppy clothing, and all of them are here on student visas.

Far from being a racist, I identify more with Japanese Americans than I identify with any other racial or ethnic group.

Most of us hate the way certain things are done here in America, and long for the smooth, orderly society that exists in Japan. However, many of us also find Japanese society repugnant in certain other ways.

Japan is truly a nation of sexists and Xenophobes. If you want to see racism in action, go try to get a job in Japan teaching math. By law, foreigners cannot teach anything but English, French, or dance in Japanese schools.

Nobody in Japan ever has any compunction about pointing a finger at you and shouting "Gaijin Da!" Granted, many times this makes you into a cause celebre, and it can be lots of fun to go talk to them after being pointed out in such a manner. However I am hard pressed to think of another place where you are guaranteed to be singled out in the public square as a "Gaijin" (foreigner, or person of non-Japanese descent).

It's rather ironic that I have been singled out in this forum as a racist, but the blame is all mine.

I have sent my apologies to Paris, and to the forum moderators. I can think of no other way to deal with this matter.

Once again, my apologies to all of you.


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

dpihl said:


> I have sent my apologies to Paris, and to the forum moderators. I can think of no other way to deal with this matter.
> 
> Once again, my apologies to all of you.


Hello dpihl,
Thank you! It's nice of you and there's no hard feelings here...

...from paris


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

*To dphil*

Sir: I am sure that you are sincere and mean well, but I must agree with Malinda that comments on other ethnic groups are inadvisable on this forum. Yours collegially.:icon_smile:


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Folks, time to stop talking about this.

David's comments were largely misunderstood, and he and Paris are on the same page. 

Done.

Now, let's talk about Harvard and bowties, or let's let this thread disappear into "Page Two"

JB


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*Humour...*



maddox said:


> (Please note: another ethnicity prep males at UVA are the most pathetic people on earth. Please let them know that expensive clothes and cars do NOT make you better in bed, nor do they increase penis size. You are JOKES.)
> /quote]
> 
> hihi...this line of humor is really funny--especially on a TRAD forum. I like it!
> ...


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## malinda (Aug 25, 2002)

*To All:

STRIKE TWO
Stop apologizing. Everyone is sorry for anything they may have done; real, perceived, or totally imaginary.

Stop analyzing, commenting upon, cataloging the history of, ascribing characteristics to, dissing, or complimenting:
Races, ethnicities, religions, skin color, eye color, hair color, size of male member, availability of female member, creeds, nationalities, gender, or age of yourself, your fellow members, the public at large, and/or aliens who may happen to be visiting.

BECAUSE:

If, for any reason be it real or imagined, I am required to read this thread even one more time, I will turn the key in the lock and throw it away.

Sincerely yours,
Malinda*


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Close it. Stupid thread, anyway.


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