# Jazz



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

In looking at threads on music preference, the national taste seems to be reflected here. Not many jazz fans left. Music taste seems to almost be like a part of a person's personality, it either works for you or it doesn't. 

At one time, trad clothing was popularized by jazz musicians. Have a neat photo of Zoot Sims in 3/2 J Press seersucker jacket.

Be that as it may, finding good local jazz in person is a bit like trying to find a 3/2 suit or jacket.

Hard to understand how this original American art form had virtually become extinct. 

If there are any fans left, what is your take on the state of the art?


----------



## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

Intrepid said:


> In looking at threads on music preference, the national taste seems to be reflected here. Not many jazz fans left. Music taste seems to almost be like a part of a person's personality, it either works for you or it doesn't.
> 
> At one time, trad clothing was popularized by jazz musicians. Have a neat photo of Zoot Sims in 3/2 J Press seersucker jacket.
> 
> ...


you can count me in the roll call. Though lately the stuff i listen to is more of the Bossa Nova variety. I do not know enough to comment on the general state of things, but i think there is still a small yet dedicated following. Back in NYC I used to go to Jazz at Lincoln Center events with my friends (who are in the 25-35 age range)


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

I love jazz and have hundreds of CDs and LPs in my collection. I once hosted a jazz radio show on my college station and cherished every minute of it.

Jazz has unfortunately been dying slowly for decades. There was a brief uptick in the early 1990s during the so-called "Young Lions" period. But those guys didn't have staying power.

There are a handful of clubs in my area, but I go very rarely. The cats I would love to see play are mostly dead, and I'm not aware of a youth jazz revival.

Jazz will always be around in some form. But I'm not sure jazz will enter a more mainstream entertainment phase anytime soon.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I never liked jazz and never will. To me it's random noise. 

Whatever legitimacy it may have had was lost once it became identified with the beat generation and baby boomers wanting to seem sophisticated. 

I never understood the appeal of a heroin addled musician belting out nonesense out of a trumpet and being declared a genius.


----------



## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

SG_67 said:


> I never liked jazz and never will. To me it's random noise.
> 
> Whatever legitimacy it may have had was lost once it became identified with the beat generation and baby boomers wanting to seem sophisticated.
> 
> I never understood the appeal of a heroin addled musician belting out nonesense out of a trumpet and being declared a genius.


Not disagreeing that some declares their interest because of snobbery, but could "wanting to seem sophisticated" also apply to fans of classical music? After all, just how many actually understand the various structures? I for one get lost on all things past the fugue. To me, classical is kinda similar to jazz in that i can appreciate the melody of the first few bars, and everything after just seems like improvisation of one sort or another.

Also agree that some of the stuff from 1960s onward are quite esoteric, but perhaps others have redeeming values. I happen to like old standards (e.g. Summertime).


----------



## marinephil (Jun 30, 2013)

I grew up playing trombone, was in several jazz/swing/big bands throughout high school and college, and most recently, a New Orleans style brass band. 

I read an article that (I think) summed it up pretty well, although I can't find it right now. The basic narrative was that as jazz developed, it shifted from dance music to more 'cool' jazz, more exploration/innovation. And as it become more 'high brow', it became less accessible to the masses. On one hand, Wynton and Jazz at Lincoln Center validated that jazz was a fully appreciated art form; on the other hand, it was now something for rich people to get dressed up for, like the opera or an art exhibit. I know a ton of musicians that think dixieland, big band swing, etc is cheesy and hokey; that jazz has to be something they "get" and that others don't, and they like it that way.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

echappist said:


> Not disagreeing that some declares their interest because of snobbery, but could "wanting to seem sophisticated" also apply to fans of classical music? After all, just how many actually understand the various structures? I for one get lost on all things past the fugue. To me, classical is kinda similar to jazz in that i can appreciate the melody of the first few bars, and everything after just seems like improvisation of one sort or another.
> 
> Also agree that some of the stuff from 1960s onward are quite esoteric, but perhaps others have redeeming values. I happen to like old standards (e.g. Summertime).


I'm not a musician nor do I understand composition.

I like classical but don't know a thing about it. I just like the way it sounds and how it makes me feel. I couldn't explain the difference between Schubert or Mozart. I recognize the more familiar pieces but beyond that I'm clueless.

If someone asks me why I like classical music, I just tell them I like how it sounds. That's it.

I've seen too many people sit painfully through jazz pretending to like it as the risk of not doing so somehow will make them appear as unsophisticated.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> I never liked jazz and never will. To me it's random noise.
> 
> Whatever legitimacy it may have had was lost once it became identified with the beat generation and baby boomers wanting to seem sophisticated.
> 
> I never understood the appeal of a heroin addled musician belting out nonesense out of a trumpet and being declared a genius.


If you're at all open to the idea, try listening to "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis. If you don't like that, then you're a lost cause.

By the way, the "Beat Generation" of Kerouac, Ginsberg etc. had its day in the 1950s. So according to your stance, jazz was lost in the 1950s. Many great jazz recordings took place in that decade and in decades since.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

gamma68 said:


> If you're at all open to the idea, try listening to "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis. If you don't like that, then you're a lost cause.
> 
> By the way, the "Beat Generation" of Kerouac, Ginsberg etc. had its day in the 1950s. So according to your stance, jazz was lost in the 1950s. Many great jazz recordings took place in that decade and in decades since.


Miles Davis is exactly the heroin addled trumpeter I'm referring to.

And I did try to listen to sketches of Spain once and trashed the tape after about 10 minutes. I guess I'm a lost cause.


----------



## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

SG_67 said:


> I'm not a musician nor do I understand composition.
> 
> I like classical but don't know a thing about it. I just like the way it sounds and how it makes me feel. I couldn't explain the difference between Schubert or Mozart. I recognize the more familiar pieces but beyond that I'm clueless.
> 
> ...


There are some more obscure classical pieces that i like, such as Pictures at an Exhibition. Why? Because it sounds nice, but i really can't elaborate more than that. Same thing goes for the jazz that I like.

and you can add me to the list of people who have sat painfully through some experimental jazz pretending to be interested; then again, ditto for all the orchestral arrangements as well...


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

SG_67, you're not a lost cause! There are definitely specific types of jazz that I don't like (late Miles Davis, especially his space-man phase, or acid jazz or free form jazz). Perhaps you might find Frank Sinatra, Benny Goodman, or other big band jazz more appealing?

To reply to the posts: I agree that one doesn't have to necessarily understand the form/composition/theory to like/appreciate it. Yesterday I played opera (la Boheme) for my music appreciation class (mostly freshman) and they LOVED it. On Tuesday I played Schoenberg (20th century) for the class and they hated it; but at the end of class one student came up to me and said he really liked it, it made him very emotional, and asked for the name of the piece. Some pieces speak to many while others are appreciated by a small few. That's the beauty of music and any art form; it makes us feel human, for better or for worse.

There is literally 500 years of music out there. If someone says "I don't like classical music" my hope is that they simply haven't yet found the music that resonates with them.

If folks are interested there are some amazing videos out there on youtube:

Bernstein What Does Music Mean?
Bernstein What is Melody?
Bernstein What is Sonata Form?
Bernstein Jazz in the Concert Hall

To Intrepid: from my experience it is dependent on the city. Atlanta's jazz scene is doing well; Cleveland has a few spots and NYC has many jazz clubs. I've also heard the Big Easy is a good jazz spot, but I have not yet been - same with Chicago. I wouldn't necessarily say jazz is thriving but there are followers and my observation is that the audience is younger than the ones at the classical concerts I attend and perform.

-Chris


----------



## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

^^
Ah, music appreciation class, one that is often the butt of jokes but is actually informative and enriching if approached with the right attitude. Though i have yet have attended an opera, i have nonetheless become interested and would love to be able to attend Turandot one day.

That said, I wonder what your students would say if you "play" nothing for 4+ minutes


----------



## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

Paris is probably the best place to see live jazz, especially in the kind of close-up, intimate format in which it's best (basement clubs and the like). Tokyo is pretty good, also.

Beyond that, it's simply the luck of the draw in living someplace with even a single good venue (we have a few in Atlanta, though they tend to be on the "see and be seen" side.)

As for appreciating it, it's not often immediately "likable" in the way classical is (with its more orderly structure); that said, you can certainly find classical pieces which offer a jazz-like listening challenge (like Beethoven's "Kreutzer" sonata.) But if you listen to it - or any sort of music - you'll eventually acclimate to the soundscape and "get it"*

I do think it's inadvisable to start with Miles Davis, Thelonius Monk and the like - better to start with Billy Holliday, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, etc. in the "swing" mode, and transition to more experimental or improvisational jazz.

DH

* A music industry executive colleague of mine, when he doesn't "get" a piece of music, simply loops it nonstop for a week (while he drives, etc) until it "clicks". It works!


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

echappist said:


> ^^
> Ah, music appreciation class, one that is often the butt of jokes but *is actually informative and enriching if approached with the right attitude*. Though i have yet have attended an opera, i have nonetheless become interested and would love to be able to attend Turandot one day.
> 
> *That said, I wonder what your students would say if you "play" nothing for 4+ minutes*


YES. I open the class with a lecture titled "This is not music" and play Cage 4'33''. There was a small uproar 
The same goes for the professor. I teach my classes how to listen to music, rather than just memorize composers and dates, which I personally think is not conducive to appreciating music at all . . .


Dhaller said:


> Paris is probably the best place to see live jazz, especially in the kind of close-up, intimate format in which it's best (basement clubs and the like). Tokyo is pretty good, also.
> 
> Beyond that, it's simply the luck of the draw in living someplace with even a single good venue (*we have a few in Atlanta, though they tend to be on the "see and be seen" side.*)
> 
> ...


DH, great points. Edited your comment above - much agreed.
Regarding Atlanta - do you check out Joe Gransden at Cafe 290 or Twain's? Cafe 290 is a bit "see and be seen". Bumpin' the Mango is a lot of fun too. Let me know if you ever want to go to either, just PM me.


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

DH, one more thing - have your music exec friend listen to John Cage's "Waterwalk" over and over and see if it clicks!


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Charlie Parker was a horrid selfish person, and a junkie. He was also a genius. It doesn't seem fair that someone like that could be an epochal artist, but art is amoral. Miles Davis's _In a Silent Way _is pretty narcotic, in more than one sense, but that's hardly a knock on it.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Also, I have to say, when I was a teenager I responded immediately to Ornette's early and frankly quite catchy works. Thelonius Monk's compositions were memorable, though I didn't encounter "Brilliant Corners" until later.


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Charlie Parker was a horrid selfish person, and a junkie. He was also a genius. It doesn't seem fair that someone like that could be an epochal artist, but art is amoral. Miles Davis's _In a Silent Way _is pretty narcotic, in more than one sense, but that's hardly a knock on it.


Have you read _Talking Jazz_ by Ben Sidran? It's an interesting read and reveals a lot about Parker.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

cellochris said:


> Have you read _Talking Jazz_ by Ben Sidran? It's an interesting read and reveals a lot about Parker.


I have not, but thanks for the tip. I can't recommend Stanley Crouch's recent biography of Parker, as I think Crouch is actually a terrible writer, but he argues quite persuasively that Parker set out to be completely amoral, and true only to the sounds in his head. I.e. he was not a great musician who was incidentally saddled with an addiction. His complete disregard for other people, and any of rules of conventional society, was part of his modernist _dérèglement de tous les sens _(derangement of all the senses). 
.


----------



## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Also, I have to say, when I was a teenager I responded immediately to Ornette's early and frankly quite catchy works. *Thelonius Monk's compositions were memorable, *though I didn't encounter "Brilliant Corners" until later.


Round about midnight is a personal favorite, and I have the biography by Robert D J Kelley. Something about Monk's life really epitomizes Jazz as a whole, as he's been been through the highs and lows, interspersed with personal troubles as well as societal injustices. Too bad that the book has taken me a long time to finish. I started back in the summer of 2012 and am only 60% through (if not less)...



cellochris said:


> YES. I open the class with a lecture titled "This is not music" and play Cage 4'33''. There was a small uproar
> The same goes for the professor. I *teach my classes how to listen to music, rather than just memorize composers and dates, *which I personally think is not conducive to appreciating music at all . . .


Agreed. Too bad i can understand only the "chasing" part of a fugue and not much more. For jazz, i may be able to pick up the chord progression on the bass, but even that happens on the rarest of occasions.


----------



## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

For me Miles Davis is the most important musician of the 20th century. I can't imagine how you could not get Sketches of Spain or look at In a Silent Way in a negative way.

Kind of Blue, The Capitol Years and Porgy and Bess are albums I would defend to the point of fist fighting.

The people that have played with Miles, Bill Evans, Gil Evans, John Coltrane, Yardbird Parker, Philly Joe Johnson, Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonious Monk and Cisley Tyson (who pulled out Miles' fresh weave once) are giants of the music industry.

Read Quincey Troupe's great bio of Miles if you want to understand. Put his version of the Autumn Leaves on repeat while you read.

chellochris. As much as \I enjoyed the chapters about Parker in the Sidran book, it's the ones about Louis Armstrong that are the most interesting. After reading them I feel dirty when I hear him sing.


----------



## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

I've always loved jazz- I was in elementary school listening to the likes of Count Basie, Benny Goodman, and Dizzy Gillespie, when my friends were listening to Backstreet Bous and Britney Spears. I still listen to a little bit of everything, but my go-to when I'm relaxing is Bill Charlap and similar artists. I also love classical music, but usually pick jazz first.

Coincidentally, my wife and I are running in the Houston Rhythm & Blues 1/2 marathon on Sunday morning, which will supposedly have jazz and R&B acts every couple miles (with a big concert at the end). We're looking forward to the music as much as the run itself.


----------



## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

If Ken Burns' series on jazz is still on Netflix, it's worth a watch.

Jazz is something you get or you don't even if it offends a couple in this thread. It helps if you're enough of a musician to know the whats and whys of modern jazz. My wife is not a fan. She also doesn't know a thing about music.

That said, I listen to lots of music of many types: opera, classical, big band, bossa nova, world, country, blues, rock, pop, Native American flute, and on and on. I've played piano and guitar for 50+ years and have a very wide range of musical interests.

If you can't enjoy Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, well...


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Charlie Parker was a horrid selfish person, and a junkie. He was also a genius. It doesn't seem fair that someone like that could be an epochal artist, but art is amoral. Miles Davis's _In a Silent Way _is pretty narcotic, in more than one sense, but that's hardly a knock on it.


You would prefer genius to be well behaved? Tame?


----------



## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

marinephil said:


> I grew up playing trombone, was in several jazz/swing/big bands throughout high school and college, and most recently, a New Orleans style brass band.
> 
> I read an article that (I think) summed it up pretty well, although I can't find it right now. The basic narrative was that as jazz developed, it shifted from dance music to more 'cool' jazz, more exploration/innovation. And as it become more 'high brow', it became less accessible to the masses. On one hand, Wynton and Jazz at Lincoln Center validated that jazz was a fully appreciated art form; on the other hand, it was now something for rich people to get dressed up for, like the opera or an art exhibit. I know a ton of musicians that think dixieland, big band swing, etc is cheesy and hokey; that jazz has to be something they "get" and that others don't, and they like it that way.


Exactly. Once jazz left the saloon for Carnegie Hall it was doomed as pop music.

The other thing that killed jazz was sax players trying to be John Coltrane and/or Charlie Parker. They must think they are getting paid by the note.

I find myself going back to jump blues. Some of those bands - led by Wynonie Harris or Joe Turner or Louis Jordan - still sound great.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Shaver said:


> You would prefer genius to be well behaved? Tame?


That's pretty much the opposite of what I want. Well, no, to be honest, as a suburban family guy I sort of like finding out that some artistic genius was also a nice guy, but it usually comes as a surprise.

Maybe it was late at night, maybe I'm just too elliptical, but c'mon, I quoted Rimbaud in French! Does it really seem like I would be arguing _against_ artistic pretension?


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

We imagine that the best big bands (Duke Ellington, Count Basie) used to be popular, but it's not exactly true. Outside of urban centers where there was a demand for the newest sounds, and the newest dance steps, the best jazz was a small fraction of swing-as-popular music. I would not even have imagined, before reading this book (terrible title, but ignore that), that Lawrence Welk was ever popular, but he was, and not as a corruption of "real" swing music. To some few remaining oldsters, "Moonlight Serenade" is the real thing, not "Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue."


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Excellent posts. Thanks.

Some good young stars on the way up, if there is a market. IMO, John Pizarelli is the best living jazz guitar player, and vocalist. Bucky's son @ 50, I'd guess. Joey Alexander @14. Diana Krall @ 45. (Krall and Pizarelli both appeared in OKC to sold out crowds.)

Jazz seems like any other form of music. It's in your bones. You either like it or you don't. Simply music to be happy to, that's all.

Some comments on character of some musicians. Very true. Hard to find a lot of professions chock full of role models, however.

Eddie "Lock jaw" Davis who plays a cooking tenor sax said that the reason that he started into jazz was because the musicians smoked, drink, slept late, and got all of the broads.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Sometimes I love music _because _it's difficult. It's in my nature to take it as a challenge when I hear about some "difficult" or abrasive music. That doesn't mean I can't like this, too (by some strange coincidence, my son just asked me what a Hammond organ is):


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> Miles Davis is exactly the heroin addled trumpeter I'm referring to.
> 
> And I did try to listen to sketches of Spain once and trashed the tape after about 10 minutes. I guess I'm a lost cause.


Perhaps brass instruments are not to your liking. My only other suggestion would be to try a jazz piano trio. Something like Ahmad Jamal's 1950s work.

Try "Poinciana" from his LP "Live at the Pershing":






If you still can't stand jazz, my condolences. I don't see how anyone could write off any musical genre in its entirety.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I like jazz, with artists such as Louie Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Bobby Byrd and George Benson to name a few.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

gamma68 said:


> Perhaps brass instruments are not to your liking. My only other suggestion would be to try a jazz piano trio. Something like Ahmad Jamal's 1950s work.
> 
> Try "Poinciana" from his LP "Live at the Pershing":
> 
> ...


I listened for about 5 minutes. Continuously repeats itself.

Jazz just isn't my thing.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> I listened for about 5 minutes. Continuously repeats itself.
> 
> Jazz just isn't my thing.


What music do you enjoy?

You come across so dismissive, I'd be genuinely surprised to learn if you like any music.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'm a child of the 70's and 80's. I enjoy punk rock. 

I also enjoy listening to classical though, as stated before, I don't know a thing about it. I just like how it sounds.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

This repeats itself, but in very short bursts:

This does not repeat at all:

Nor does this:


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

This does repeat, but with tiny shifts that turn into big ones:


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> I'm a child of the 70's and 80's. I enjoy punk rock.
> 
> I also enjoy listening to classical though, as stated before, I don't know a thing about it. I just like how it sounds.


I grew up in those decades as well, but am not as limited when it comes to musical genres. Based on your posts, it seems you take issue with drug use in jazz. As if that never occurred in punk rock.

Musical enjoyment is a journey, a perpetual winding road that leads to places you could never have foreseen or imagined. I'd encourage you to not let your road reach a dead end.


----------



## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

SlideGuitarist said:


> (by some strange coincidence, my son just asked me what a Hammond organ is):


For some reason, the Hammond is an instrument I just don't like. I don't know why, but in many cases it's inclusion has diminished my enjoyment of a song. I think my thing is I just don't like the "synthetic" sound (preferring brass, wood winds, and guitar). But then, I played clarinet in elementary and middle school, euphonium in high school, and have played guitar and bass since 7th grade, so that may factor into it a bit.



SG_67 said:


> I'm a child of the 70's and 80's. I enjoy punk rock.


I do love me some Ramones/Sex Pistols/The Clash. Also, as a child of the 90's (teen of the 00's), Blink 182 and Green Day receive heavy representation my running playlist.

This morning, sitting on my patio with an Irish coffee: Eric Reed, Bill Charlap, Bill Evans, and Bob James Trio


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

You guys are the best. Who would have thought we'd see Reich on AAAC!!?


----------



## chosenhandle (Aug 8, 2015)

jazz is an amazingly diverse genre. Some people love traditional jazz (Basie, Ellington) but don't care for later hard bop jazz and visa versa. I started as a rock and roller and was led into 50's small ensemble trad jazz and slowly moved to more complex jazz as I learned more about the music.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

gamma68 said:


> I grew up in those decades as well, but am not as limited when it comes to musical genres. Based on your posts, it seems you take issue with drug use in jazz. As if that never occurred in punk rock.
> 
> Musical enjoyment is a journey, a perpetual winding road that leads to places you could never have foreseen or imagined. I'd encourage you to not let your road reach a dead end.


It's not the drug use at all. If I let that dictate my taste in pop culture I may as well stay home and stare at the wall.

I just don't care for it (jazz). I don't like the sound and in the case of people like Miles Davis it literary sounds like random noise. The fact that people refer to a junkie as a genius is something beyond my grasp.


----------



## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

And yet you like punk. OK.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> It's not the drug use at all. If I let that dictate my taste in pop culture I may as well stay home and stare at the wall.
> 
> I just don't care for it (jazz). I don't like the sound and in the case of people like Miles Davis it literary sounds like random noise. The fact that people refer to a junkie as a genius is something beyond my grasp.


FYI, Miles kicked heroin in the 1950s. And he was a great talent, perhaps even a genius.


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Sibelius had a serious drinking problem. Berlioz had drug problems. Beethoven considered suicide. Many geniuses are/were troubled.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> It's not the drug use at all. If I let that dictate my taste in pop culture I may as well stay home and stare at the wall.
> 
> I just don't care for it (jazz). I don't like the sound and in the case of people like Miles Davis it literary sounds like random noise. The fact that people refer to a junkie as a genius is something beyond my grasp.


I should have thought that the relationship between genius and addiction would be quite obvious.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I am deeply ignorant of jazz but understand this to be free jazz. Whatever it is called it is delicious.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

cellochris said:


> Sibelius had a serious drinking problem. Berlioz had drug problems. Beethoven considered suicide. Many geniuses are/were troubled.


Except their music didn't suck.


----------



## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

SG_67 said:


> Except their music didn't suck.


You just really hate jazz and you don't seem to respect the people who play it and like it. Hating jazz is okay, but showing disrespect to jazz because you don't understand it is not. I'm one of those young people who likes jazz. But I genuinely like it and understand it. I have about 1000 albums, from big band to free jazz. I must hear something completely different from what you hear. Miles Davis was indeed a genius, but his genius wasn't about the music he played. His genius was his leadership in the music world.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ the notion that it has to be understood is the problem. 

Art shouldn't need understanding. It need only stir something in the it's audience. 

If I see a painting I don't need, nor do I want, to understand it. It either appeals to me or it doesn't.


----------



## Bridgers (Sep 23, 2009)

Love jazz. Trombone player also. The best is when you can listen to music where it's clear there is communication going on between the players. When you hear a line or rhythm in the soloist that is then copied, juxtaposed, etc. from another player or (especially) the drums, it becomes a lot more real. That may be the hard part about appreciating recorded jazz - it's a lot harder to notice the communication.


----------



## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

SG_67 said:


> ^ the notion that it has to be understood is the problem.
> 
> Art shouldn't need understanding. It need only stir something in the it's audience.
> 
> If I see a painting I don't need, nor do I want, to understand it. It either appeals to me or it doesn't.


There's no notion that is has to be understood. My dad truly loves jazz and knows nothing about it. He just likes it because he likes the sounds. To be disrespectful to jazz when don't understand it is the problem I have. I hate the sound of punk rock, but I'm not going to make assumptions about the musicians or the people who listen to punk rock.


----------



## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

I am so glad that someone else is saying what I feel about jazz (ptooey!) so that I don't get the troll label tossed at me. It is degenerate art. Henry Ford was right about jazz.
Why don't they play the music the way it's written?


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> ^ the notion that it has to be understood is the problem.
> 
> Art shouldn't need understanding. It need only stir something in the it's audience.
> 
> If I see a painting I don't need, nor do I want, to understand it. It either appeals to me or it doesn't.


All Art requires understanding. Great Art requires greater understanding. Familiarity with theme and theory, content and context, technique and texture, allow an appreciation beyond 'Gee! What a pretty picture'.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Tempest said:


> I am so glad that someone else is saying what I feel about jazz (ptooey!) so that I don't get the troll label tossed at me. It is degenerate art. Henry Ford was right about jazz.
> Why don't they play the music the way it's written?


Degenerate art? May we, generously, presume that you are unaware of the origin of this phrase?


----------



## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Based on his body of work on this forum, I would presume just the opposite.


----------



## Mr Humphries (Apr 5, 2013)

So where should I start? As much as I quite liked that Ornette Coleman track I think a gentle introduction would serve me better.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> Except their music didn't suck.


Okay, now you're just showing your ignorance.

Your attitude sucks.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> ^ the notion that it has to be understood is the problem.


Music of any genre doesn't necessarily need to be understood, but it needs to be _felt_.

You could use a) an attitude adjustment and b) some horizon expansion.


----------



## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

I don't get all of the hate. Direct it where it belongs at Bro Pop Country and Western.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Mr Humphries said:


> So where should I start? As much as I quite liked that Ornette Coleman track I think a gentle introduction would serve me better.


Miles Davis, "Kind of Blue." Listen in a darkened room, let it wash over you. It's presented gently but it's not simplistic. If you enjoy it, you'll find more complexities within each listening.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

gamma68 said:


> Music of any genre doesn't necessarily need to be understood, but it needs to be _felt_.
> 
> You could use a) an attitude adjustment and b) some horizon expansion.


In your world, is it possible that someone just can't _feel_ what is so special or appealing about jazz?


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> In your world, is it possible that someone just can't _feel_ what is so special or appealing about jazz?


Yeah. I don't necessarily feel punk music. But I'm not going to tell you it sucks.

Get the point?


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ why would your opinion be taken as an insult by me? You can say what you want about it.


----------



## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

SG_67 said:


> ^ why would your opinion be taken as an insult by me? You can say what you want about it.


Funny....SG, I always thought your forum avatar was some dude holding a trumpet. Guess not.


----------



## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

The OP is just trolling. Should have picked up on that earlier.


----------



## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

Tempest said:


> I am so glad that someone else is saying what I feel about jazz (ptooey!) so that I don't get the troll label tossed at me. It is degenerate art. Henry Ford was right about jazz.
> *Why don't they play the music the way it's written?*


To be fair, this doesn't apply even to classical music. Granted, the melody isn't getting changed, but there are aspects open to the interpretation of the performer.


FLCracka said:


> Funny....SG, I always thought your forum avatar was some dude holding a trumpet. Guess not.


I think his avatar espouses the view that art is the only serious thing in the world, and the artist is the only person who is never serious.


----------



## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

orange fury said:


> For some reason, the Hammond is an instrument I just don't like. I don't know why, but in many cases it's inclusion has diminished my enjoyment of a song.....


As a huge fan of the Allman Brothers Band, that is heresy.



orange fury said:


> Also, as a child of the 90's (teen of the 00's), Blink 182 and Green Day receive heavy representation my running playlist........


I recently saw a blazing set by Trombone Shorty and Orleans Avenue at a local music festival, and they did a cover of Green Day's Brain Stew that was off the chain.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Intrepid said:


> If there are any fans left, what is your take on the state of the art?


Just saw this thread. For those who don't know me, I am an active NYC based jazz musician. A band that I'm a member of has won a Grammy for Best Large Jazz Ensemble, and I've won one as an arranger as well. I've toured all over the world and I'm performing at the White House in a week and a half. (You can watch on PBS on 2/26)

Like all music, the best jazz musicians connect with me because they speak to both head and heart. A novice who attends a concert can still appreciate some of the more basic elements, the passion, emotion, communication, even technique, but the best musicians stand up to further academic study on the highest levels, whether it's rhythmic, melodic, harmonic, orchestration, etc. As a metaphor, jazz incorporates both the Saturday night and the Sunday morning, and while I love all sorts of music, it resonates with me in a way other music cannot.

Anyway, I can't respond to everything that's been said here, but if anyone has any specific questions about jazz, fire away and I'll do my best to respond.


----------



## stratcat (Oct 23, 2015)

I'm a classically trained musician and a Jazz guitarist.

Jazz is in a bad way in the UK. In most peoples minds Jazz is either Trad (New Orleans style) or free Jazz. They forget swing and pretty much everything that happened between 1940 and 1965.

I think Jazz had such a condensed life compared to classical music. It developed over around 60 years whereas classical music had several hundred. By the time Jazz had caught up with classical music, in artistic terms, it was the 60's and was integrated into the experimental 'anything goes' culture of the time. These days people equate modern art music (classical or jazz) as squeeky, untuneful music. It's a sad truth that you'll fill a concert hall for a Beethoven symphony but put something modern on and you'll have a half empty hall.

I think Jazz has suffered even more. A few years ago I went to see the Duke Ellington big band at the Bridgewater hall in Manchester and the hall was embarrassingly empty.

Jazz is now an art form, taught in college and it's not the corporeal music it developed from. Like it or loathe it, it has a niche following like all music these days. Have a look at record sales numbers. Most of today's no1 hits wouldn't even make the top 10 back in the day. We no longer have a collective society experience of music. In the 30s and 40's it was Jazz and swing, in the 50's rock and roll and the crooners, in the 60's it was the Beatles and the Stones, then the hippies, the 70's heavy rock then the punks etc. Today everyone is plugged into their phones listening to what they want, so no one is listening to the same stuff, therefore no collective experience.

I love the late 50's early 60's hard bop. I love the bluesyness in hard bop. I'm not a great fan of modal jazz, though Kind of blue was a great way into Jazz. I dislike free jazz almost as much as I dislike punk rock.

What people forget is that music is a language. If you have grown up with a particular musical style and sound then those sounds will resonate with you. I couldn't bear to listen to more than a few minutes of African or Indian music without getting bored. You probably like what you like because that's what you here been exposed to. Classical music used to be all over the TV on adverts and the like so the more tuneful stuff isn't challenging.

For someone getting into Jazz I'd recommend something like Art Blakey's Moanin'


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^ Attendance is rarely the measure of quality. A few years back I was fortunate to attend Steven Osborne's spectacular performance of Ravel's solo piano compositions at the RNCM. The tiny audience exploded in rapturous applause and a thoroughly well deserved extended standing ovation. Meanwhile elsewhere in Manchester the plebs were thronging to a gig by some insipid boy band. 

Disliking Punk rock is a faintly silly notion, however, few musical forms are so varied- from bursts of angry chaos to neo prog indulgence, the dimwitted to the experimental, the boundaries are extraordinarily fluid and almost infinitely malleable.


----------



## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> Miles Davis, "Kind of Blue." Listen in a darkened room, let it wash over you. It's presented gently but it's not simplistic. If you enjoy it, you'll find more complexities within each listening.


I am pretty sure Dante described that as one of the levels of hell.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

stratcat said:


> In most peoples minds Jazz is either Trad (New Orleans style) or free Jazz. They forget swing and pretty much everything that happened between 1940 and 1965.


Perhaps this is different in the US. The so called "common practice period" of jazz is more or less 1940 to 1965 and styles from that era seem to be the most commonly found jazz in the US.



stratcat said:


> What people forget is that music is a language.
> ...
> For someone getting into Jazz I'd recommend something like Art Blakey's Moanin'


The language metaphor is very appropriate, and is a way I like to describe jazz too. I'll get into it more in another post in a few minutes. Moanin' of course is one of the great classic jazz recordings. I've been fortunate enough to record with Benny Golson and it was great hearing him tell stories about that early Art Blakey band.



Shaver said:


> ^ Attendance is rarely the measure of quality.


+1. Nor is financial compensation. The most money I've ever made on gigs was a pop tour, while often I'll be playing with some of the best musicians in NYC for peanuts. So it goes.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

LordSmoke said:


> I am pretty sure Dante described that as one of the levels of hell.


I have no idea what you're talking about.

For those who don't like jazz, find another thread.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I have long toyed with purchasing Coltrane's Interstellar Space. Given that in my limited exposure to Jazz only free form has appealed to me would this be a reasonable starting point? I am open to, and encouraging of, recommendations that may be more suitable to arouse my interest further.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

I just wanted to expand on the language metaphor stratcat used above. Let's take a look at what happens in a "standard" jazz quartet setting: some sort of instrumentalist (trumpet, tenor sax, etc.) plus a rhythm section of piano, bass, and drums.

Here's Hank Mobley's recording of "Remember" from Soul Station:





It has the "standard" setting of Tenor Sax. plus rhythm section, and the format of melody, a bunch of stuff in the middle, and melody again. Whether you like it or not, I assume most people can at least understand and relate to what is happening when he's playing the melody. It's the "bunch of stuff in the middle" part that people have a hard time following.

Like stratcat said, jazz is really a language. The composition, tempo, and key sets the topic of conversation, in this case it's Remember by Irving Berlin, at a medium swing tempo in the key of Ab major. After the melody the members of the band embark on a conversation using these constraints, and the underlying harmonic motion and tempo is more or less constant. This is not new to jazz of course, and many people will be familiar with a repeated harmonic motion in famous harmonic variations such as Bach's Goldberg Variations, or even a simple 3 or 4 repeated chord structure of a pop tune. After the melody, Hank Mobley draws on his vocabulary of musical ideas and essentially creates a new composition on the structure of Remember. The 32 measure A-A-B-A harmonic form is basically unchanged throughout and provides the framework for the musical conversation between band members. His solo is spontaneous composition, but it is spontaneous composition within constraints.

While I love "free jazz" one of the challenges with it for both the performer and listener is the lack of these constraints. There is, quite frankly, a lot of bad free jazz out there. Without the framework for a conversation it can be difficult to have any sort of meaningful dialog. When performed at the highest levels though it can be fantastic! It's sort of the equivalent of putting a few great minds in a room and letting them talk about whatever they want, wherever the conversation may take them. In this case it can be much more illuminating to let them go wherever the topic of conversation wanders rather than locking them into a strict framework. If the speakers (or performers) have nothing of interest to say, or refuse to engage each other, then it's a failure.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaver said:


> I have long toyed with purchasing Coltrane's Interstellar Space. Given that in my limited exposure to Jazz only free form has appealed to me would this be a reasonable starting point? I am open to, and encouraging of, recommendations that may be more suitable to arouse my interest further.


Try Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" instead.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> Try Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" instead.


Done. I opted for the acclaimed remaster and including live performance version which, if the reviews are to be believed, seemed the optimal choice. Thanks gamma!


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Shaver said:


> I have long toyed with purchasing Coltrane's Interstellar Space. Given that in my limited exposure to Jazz only free form has appealed to me would this be a reasonable starting point? I am open to, and encouraging of, recommendations that may be more suitable to arouse my interest further.


That's a tough one to start with IMO. It's just Coltrane and Rashied Ali going at it. This was the last year of Trane's life and he had been experimenting with all sorts of techniques and devices at this point. You can enjoy it for what it is sonically, but without a decent understanding of where he had been coming from, it's sort of hard to understand what is happening given the absence of any chordal (piano, guitar, even bass) players. While hearing Trane do this is phenomenal, this is the sort of free jazz that can be less rewarding to listen to when played by lesser players that aren't capable of having a conversation within a framework.

Maybe listen to Ornette Coleman's "The Shape of Jazz to Come." 





Ornette's compositions on this recording are all fantastic. There isn't a piano to lock in harmonies, but the melodies both written and improvised have a strong underlying harmonic groundings. Ornette and Don Cherry don't necessarily phrase the melodies together, leaving each to interpret it as they feel. The solos have a lot of harmonic coherence without being firmly locked in to a set structure.

Or maybe try some of Miles Davis modal experiments in the later 1960s. By locking in a sort of "terra firma" of a minor key, the players are free to go off on any harmonic, rhythmic, and melodic adventures they want, and the ear can always hear this underlying home base, regardless of where the conversation takes them. Here's Miles playing Agitation for example:


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

gamma68 said:


> Try Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" instead.


"A Love Surpreme" is a great choice! After the opening exploration of a 3 note motif in E major, they go into a repeated bass ostinato. (They sing "a love supreme" for these notes at the end of of Acknowledgement.) Like I mentioned with the Miles Davis "Agitation" example, with a firm grounding Trane is free to go off on whatever harmonic explorations he wants, and McCoy Tyner's accompaniment ("comping") style is perfect for him. McCoy plays a lot of voicings in 4ths which while providing support give a very open sound so Trane is not confined harmonically. He also has the ear to follow Trane wherever he goes. Near the end of this track Trane gives a cue and they go down a whole step.

Jimmy Garrison plays a brief bass solo and then they go into Resolution. Trane certainly plays very freely on this but the harmonic structure is set and repeats. The harmonic structure is actually quite similar to an earlier tune called "Bernie's Tune." After an Elvin Jones drum solo they go into Pursuance which is basically a 12-bar minor blues. See if you can hear the 12 measure repeated structure.

The final movement Psalm is very interesting. It's basically a meditation in C minor, but even though he is playing freely, Trane is musically playing the poem he wrote in the liner notes! Look at the poem and see if you can follow along. Each musical phrase is a phrase from the poem.

It's really a fantastic recording!


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

FLCracka said:


> Funny....SG, I always thought your forum avatar was some dude holding a trumpet. Guess not.


I believe he's holding a walking stick.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Thank you Fred. I am marginally familiar with Coleman from the Naked Lunch soundtrack and could listen to music of that style all day long. I shall look into your recommendations right now.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

How appropriate that jazz should be the musical accompaniment of a story about binging and hallucinating on heroin.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> How appropriate that jazz should be the musical accompaniment of a story about binging and hallucinating on heroin.


You seem to possess an extraordinary antipathy towards the big H. Would you care to share your story with us? You are amongst friends.


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Shaver said:


> You seem to possess an extraordinary antipathy towards the big H. Would you care to share your story with us? You are amongst friends.


I was waiting for my man. Twenty-six dollars in my hand. Up to Lexington & 125.

And it only got worse from there.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> I was waiting for my man. Twenty-six dollars in my hand. Up to Lexington & 125.
> 
> And it only got worse from there.


Sick and dirty, more dead than alive?


----------



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Shaver said:


> Sick and dirty, more dead than alive?


Only if you knew! He was dressed in black. And had on a big straw hat!


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> Only if you knew! He was dressed in black. And had on a big straw hat!


Am I correct in recalling that your profession is some variety of medicine?


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> How appropriate that jazz should be the musical accompaniment of a story about binging and hallucinating on heroin.


And yet you like the Velvet Underground. Interesting.

By the way, I have the VU box set. I enjoy them as well as all kinds of jazz, rock, blues, country, classical. The musical journey is all about discovery.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Just to dispel the notion that jazz died in the late 1960s, there are many, many great musicians that continue the jazz tradition in different directions other that the "young lion" movement of the 1980s-90s.

He's no longer alive, but Woody Shaw was probably the next great innovator after Trane IMO, and went in a different direction than the fusion players of the 1970s. While he doesn't tend to get his due from critics and authors, Woody's compositional, harmonic, melodic and intervallic conception is very original and incredibly influential on many of the best players today. Here's his band at the Vanguard in 1978:





Kenny Garrett's 1990s quartet with Kenny Kirkland, Nat Reeves & Tain is now legendary. He's obviously still active, but with a different band now that Kirkland is gone and Tain has his own group. Here's a whole amazing set of Kenny's band from a live concert in Europe in the 90s: 




There are some incredible things being done in Latin jazz today too. Chucho Valdes became first well known in the 70s for his playing in the great Cuban band Irekere. Here's his band at the Vanguard from 2000: 




There are some great larger ensembles active as well. Of course the Vanguard Big Band started by Thad Jones and Mel Lewis is still active, but other bands like Darcy James Argue and Maria Schneider are doing some incredibly creative things now. Here's Maria's "Hang Gliding" from 2005. Listen to how the shifting meters give the slightly disorienting feeling one might experience while actually hang gliding: 




Collaboration between hip hop, R&B, and jazz artists is one of the more interesting things going on currently. Jazz pianist Robert Glasper even won a Grammy last year for "Best Traditional R&B Performance." He did a lot of the music for the new Miles Davis movie, and played on Kendrick Lamar's last release "To Pimp a Butterfly," one of the most important hip hop releases last year. This video is very NSFW or for any children within earshot, but here's Glasper, Thundercat, and Robert Searight on Lamar's "For Free?":


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Great to see varied opinions!

It is important that people post why they don't like jazz (or anything for that matter); we must recognize when the arts disturbs _and_ pleases. Sometimes it is easier to say "I like this" or "This makes me happy" vs. "I don't like this" or "This angers me" and other times that paradigm is reversed. At best our dialogue might serve to inspire us to seek answers for profoundly important questions.

I enjoy reading when people write "This sucks" or "That artist is a wacko nut job" because at least then, people are having an honest, emotional reaction. Better anger than indifference.


----------



## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Intrepid said:


> ...
> Hard to understand how this original American art form had virtually become extinct.
> 
> If there are any fans left, what is your take on the state of the art?





gamma68 said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> For those who don't like jazz, find another thread.


The OP used only one question mark eliciting responses from fans of the genre. He did, however, include a musing on the possible extinction of music for which he expressed an affinity.

Being an ever open-minded sort, I read some of the posts and even followed up listening to the referenced material - Miles Davis, Kind of Blue. The performance evoked the same visceral response as many of the related compositions - an instant elevation in blood pressure and aggitation and a sense of a growing seed of a homicidal rampage within.

Of course, I know Dante Alighieri did not describe a level of hell emphasizing jazz as it had not been invented 13-14th centure. Had it been...

Based on the OP alone, I would not necessarily have contributed to the thread, but subsequent posts included exchanges both pro and con. The image of being trapped in a dark room and letting the aforementioned album wash over me conjured up images of a special kind of hell. It would surely drive me insane, which is a reference not entirely inappropriate.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Going splenetically on and on and on about stuff one doesn't like tends not to show one to best advantage. It's contradictory to boast of how uninterested one is in jazz, and then also claim that one nonetheless knows enough about it to dislike it.

It was a gross failure of taste on my part to encourage the subdiscussion about heroin. Reducing great artists to their weaknesses is how mediocrities exact their revenge.

Thanks, Fred G. Unn, for your posting. Is jazz dying? No, the 32-bar show tune is dying. Robert Glasper, Steve Coleman, the Burnt Sugar Arkestra...these musicians don't worry about what is and what is not jazz. Why should they have a more limited set of options than hip-hop, by means of sampling, has enjoyed for decades?

OP, if you're worried about whether jazz is still "happening," stop. I think you can live an interesting life, sonically, listening to music that no one around you is listening to. Seriously, if you decided to listen only to Bach from now on, your musical gains might exceed your losses.

P.S. Oy, Burnt Sugar was auto-parsed rather strangely on my first try: https://burntsugarindex.com/.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Don't blame yourself slide. The addiction and the choice of substance may be central to the expression, venturing across the boundaries and so forth. It would be remiss to exclude it from any intelligent discussion of the artist. 

That said I do hope SG can, shall we say, 'recover' from his monomania.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

SlideGuitarist said:


> It was a gross failure of taste on my part to encourage the subdiscussion about heroin. Reducing great artists to their weaknesses is how mediocrities exact their revenge.





Shaver said:


> The addiction and the choice of substance may be central to the expression, venturing across the boundaries and so forth. It would be remiss to exclude it from any intelligent discussion of the artist.


Eh, it's a part of the history that can't really be ignored, especially as Shaver put it in "intelligent discussion." The times where it pisses me off is when an entire genre is written off to drug use, or in moderately crappy documentaries like the one Ken Burns did where probably the most influential jazz trombonist, J.J. Johnson, is mentioned once and only in the context of being a junkie.

There was a brief resurgence of heroin use among a couple cliques of musicians in the 1990s (and unfortunately Kenny Kirkland died from a speedball), but that was it. The scene will probably never be totally free of drugs, but I honestly don't know of any cliques of jazz musicians using heroin today.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

LordSmoke said:


> Being an ever open-minded sort, I read some of the posts and even followed up listening to the referenced material - Miles Davis, Kind of Blue. The performance evoked the same visceral response as many of the related compositions - an instant elevation in blood pressure and aggitation and a sense of a growing seed of a homicidal rampage within.
> 
> Of course, I know Dante Alighieri did not describe a level of hell emphasizing jazz as it had not been invented 13-14th centure. Had it been...
> 
> Based on the OP alone, I would not necessarily have contributed to the thread, but subsequent posts included exchanges both pro and con. The image of being trapped in a dark room and letting the aforementioned album wash over me conjured up images of a special kind of hell. It would surely drive me insane, which is a reference not entirely inappropriate.


Your reaction to "Kind of Blue" is extreme to the point of ridiculousness. It is a very soothing recording, hence why I recommended it to a new listener (Mr Humphries). To outright trash a recommendation made not to you, but to another member, is rather rude.

It doesn't matter to me if you like it or not. A more tactful way to express your opinion would be: "I just don't care for that type of music," (particularly when my intent was to offer a helpful suggestion to someone else). But to suggest it belongs in "a special kind of hell" and that it inspires "homicidal rampage" just tells me that you're either A) trolling, B) have a very distorted view of music or C) lack any basic understanding of music. Perhaps all the above.

Mr Humphries, if you've been able to navigate past the negative posts and heroin references thus far, I would still recommend "Kind of Blue" as a solid introduction to jazz. Here are some other recommendations:

Ahmad Jamal, "Live at the Pershing"
Dave Brubeck: "Jazz at Oberlin"
Yusef Lateef: "Eastern Sounds"
Herbie Hancock: "Taking Off"
Grant Green: "Green Street"

These would give you a mixture of styles (piano and guitar-driven jazz, early World Music, West Coast jazz, etc.)

Best to ignore extreme statements and form your own opinion after a thorough listen (not just the first few minutes of a track, as others here have done).

I sincerely hope you enjoy your musical journey and discover something new that gives you great pleasure.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Fred G. Unn said:


> Eh, it's a part of the history that can't really be ignored, especially as Shaver put it in "intelligent discussion." The times where it pisses me off is when an entire genre is written off to drug use, or in moderately crappy documentaries like the one Ken Burns did where probably the most influential jazz trombonist, J.J. Johnson, is mentioned once and only in the context of being a junkie.


Ken Burns is very overrated as a documentary maker. His "Jazz" series is filled with errors and oversights, as is his series "Baseball." Burns seems to be more interested in bending the history of a genre to meet his preconceived themes, rather than thoroughly researching the topic to tell the true story.

The unfortunate part is so many people take his documentaries as the "last word" on a topic.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

gamma68 said:


> Ken Burns is very overrated as a documentary maker. His "Jazz" series is filled with errors and oversights, as is his series "Baseball." Burns seems to be more interested in bending the history of a genre to meet his preconceived themes, rather than thoroughly researching the topic to tell the true story.
> 
> The unfortunate part is so many people take his documentaries as the "last word" on a topic.


That's what really bugs me, that people take his view as gospel. Actually if he had called it "Jazz and American Culture: 1920-1960" I wouldn't have had that much of a problem with it. Unfortunately, he called it "Jazz" as if he (well, and Wynton) are the authorities on what jazz is. I mean out of a 10 episode series, they spent an entire episode on 1935-37, another one on 1937-39, and one 1961-2001. Whaaa? I mean, he missed almost everyone that is a strong influence on musicians today.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

It's great to have the view of a professional that is in the scene, today. 

As an unsophisticated fan, a couple of earlier posts rang a bell.

The Hammond organ was mentioned in an earlier post. Usually not thought of a lot in the world of jazz. However, in Lockjaw's "The Complete Cookbook Sessions", Jaws is backed by a rhythm section of Shirley Scott on the Hammond, instead of a piano. IMO, that is his very best work. 

References also made to the work of Grant Green. His Latin treatment of "Mambo Inn", and "Green Dolphin Street", was a treat for me.

Fred G Umm's reference to superb talent woking for peanuts rang a sad note. One of the best treats in OKC, this past year was the performance of the "Stan Kenton Legacy Band". About 5 of the guys were with the band under Kenton. Don't know what they were paid. My guess is that they played for the love of the art form.

Good luck at the White House, and thank you for your insight.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> Your reaction to "Kind of Blue" is extreme to the point of ridiculousness. It is a very soothing recording, hence why I recommended it to a new listener (Mr Humphries). To outright trash a recommendation made not to you, but to another member, is rather rude.
> 
> It doesn't matter to me if you like it or not. A more tactful way to express your opinion would be: "I just don't care for that type of music," (particularly when my intent was to offer helpful suggestion to someone else). But to suggest it belongs in "a special kind of hell" and that it inspires "homicidal rampage" just tells me that you're either A) trolling, B) have a very distorted view of music or C) lack any basic understanding of music. Perhaps all the above.
> 
> ...


Aww gamma, I'm faintly dismayed. Don't neglect lil ol' me. I have ordered the record which you recommended. I'm on the musical journey at your bidding.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaver, anyone with an open mind and a desire to expand their musical horizons is welcome to join in.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Open mind- check. Expand horizons- check. 

As long as you are aware that should I catch the Jazz bug then, as a member whose taste I respect, I shall be expecting your further recommendation?


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Intrepid said:


> Fred G Umm's reference to superb talent woking for peanuts rang a sad note. One of the best treats in OKC, this past year was the performance of the "Stan Kenton Legacy Band". About 5 of the guys were with the band under Kenton. Don't know what they were paid. My guess is that they played for the love of the art form.


I've done a bunch of the so-called "ghost bands," especially when I was younger. The Ellington and Basie ghost bands are still exceptional, but some of the others like Kenton, Miller, Dorsey, Cugat, etc., maybe have a few guys from the original, and then mostly guys in their 20s who are eager for the gig and have few responsibilities (wife, kids, mortgage) at home. The $ on the latter group is usually light, but obviously enough to get guys to do it. On the latter group sometimes you are expected to play the solo from the recording so it's not the most creative endeavor, it's just a gig. On most of these there's no rehearsal. If you haven't done it before it's easy enough just to show up and sightread it.


----------



## Mr Humphries (Apr 5, 2013)

gamma68 said:


> Mr Humphries, if you've been able to navigate past the negative posts and heroin references thus far, I would still recommend "Kind of Blue" as a solid introduction to jazz. Here are some other recommendations:
> 
> Ahmad Jamal, "Live at the Pershing"
> Dave Brubeck: "Jazz at Oberlin"
> ...


Thank you very much for the recommendations gamma68. I am familiar with Dave Brubeck from Take Five and Herbie Hancock from Rockit and am searching YouTube for the other names on your list. I am just about to start with Kind of Blue.
W.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I also enjoy the funkier side of jazz.


----------



## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> Your reaction to "Kind of Blue" is extreme to the point of ridiculousness. It is a very soothing recording, hence why I recommended it to a new listener (Mr Humphries). To outright trash a recommendation made not to you, but to another member, is rather rude.
> 
> It doesn't matter to me if you like it or not. A more tactful way to express your opinion would be: "I just don't care for that type of music," (particularly when my intent was to offer a helpful suggestion to someone else). But to suggest it belongs in "a special kind of hell" and that it inspires "homicidal rampage" just tells me that you're either A) trolling, B) have a very distorted view of music or C) lack any basic understanding of music. Perhaps all the above.
> 
> ...


Good lord, methinks someone is a bit sensitive.

If I stumbled on to a PM by mistake I certainly apologize, I was simply following what I thought was a recommendation in a public thread for someone who didn't like jazz. I actually followed it and listened and it was a off putting as any I have heard. Then, it was suggested that one should listen to same music in a darkened room.

Given what I had just heard, that was a horrifying idea to which I posted a single, light-hearted barb - one of the mildest criticisms made, and am responded to with (I would hope) feigned ignorance and being shown the door along with others who are not fans.

I point out that I originally respected that the thread was for jazz lovers only, but, again, there seemed to be a spirited back-and-forth, and explain that I had in good faith followed the recommendation for a good intro.

And now, my reaction is "extreme to the point of ridiculuousness" and that I was rude to comment on a public recommendation for a good intro! What heresy!

Is gamma68 a member of the Davis family or something? C'mon, man, just sit back, pour your self a drink, or heat up a spoon, and put on MD and chill.

This discussion does remind me that many years ago (decades), I would go with my roommate to Jazz Night (Tuesday) at a local club. His estranged dad, IIRC, was a bass player for Dave Brubeck. The band was the ensemble from the local university. It wasn't that bad, but then there was lots of alcohol, and I suspect they primarily jazzified mainstream tunes. The only one I remember was a peppy rendition of the Flintstones theme. Oh, "Take Five" is a good tune. I have no idea if the connoisseurs consider it proper jazz, but it is a good tune.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaver said:


> Open mind- check. Expand horizons- check.
> 
> As long as you are aware that should I catch the Jazz bug then, as a member whose taste I respect, I shall be expecting your further recommendation?


Please tell me your reaction after listening to "A Love Supreme," and what direction you'd like to take, and I'll be happy to make some recommendations.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

The Flintstones theme and "I Love Lucy" are both fakebook classics.

Since a large part of jazz is about harmony, that's going to be the sticking point for anyone whose tastes were formed after the swing era. Rather than worry about learning to like jazz, why not get some of Sinatra's more celebrated recordings and get into older songcraft? I don't think I began to like older jazz until I started learning "standards" from fakebooks. Everyone I know who likes Stan Kenton was once a band geek. I think you have to learn to love the excitement of massed horns.

If you like loud guitar, and Jimi Hendrix, perhaps you'd like _Bitches Brew_ and _Jack Johnson._

As far as Coltrane goes, the albums _Crescent_ and _Giant Steps _have beautiful melodies. I love this album, but Johnny Hartman's purring baritone is just not going to appeal to a populist aesthetic:










Also: "Goodbye, Pork Pie Hat." Listeners accustomed to bluesier sounds via rock music usually like Art Blakey's '50s albums.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Really interesting. The best "ghost" that I ever heard was the Basie band. Bill Johnson, who played lead trombone for Basie was in front.

The drummer was Butch Miles, from the original group. Not well known, but to, me was up there with Belson.

What do you think of the effect of the Four Freshmen on the jazz scene? They rocked the genre stating in @'53, and were discovered by Kenton.

They are all gone now, but I think they have a "ghost" group that still gets gigs, and sound remarkably good. Still a following, but mostly people over 60. 

Thanks again for your feedback.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

+1 to everything SlideGuitarist has been saying by the way.



Intrepid said:


> What do you think of the effect of the Four Freshmen on the jazz scene? They rocked the genre stating in @'53, and were discovered by Kenton.


I'm gonna be honest, they are a little outside my knowledge zone. I know many of them played instruments, and they used sort of the standard jazz harmony of the time, major 6th, diminished, drop 2 voicings, etc. The barber shop voicings that groups had been using prior have some weird parallel voicings that I don't completely understand. (My uncle has sang in a barbershop quartet for decades.) My vocal group knowledge from that period is more along the lines of Lambert, Hendricks, & Ross. Jon Hendricks BTW is still around and still amazing.


----------



## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

It makes me happy to see so much positive and knowledgeable jazz conversation on here, and so much I agree with.



stratcat said:


> I'm a classically trained musician and a Jazz guitarist.
> 
> Jazz is in a bad way in the UK. In most peoples minds Jazz is either Trad (New Orleans style) or free Jazz. They forget swing and pretty much everything that happened between 1940 and 1965.
> 
> ...


This is interesting to hear about jazz in the UK. I love a lot of British jazz, but it's not the 50s and 60s hard bop you like. However, it's not Evan Parker's free jazz so much either. I listen to a lot of John Surman, Kenny Wheeler (I know, born Canadian, but for all intents and purposes he was a British jazz musician), John Dankworth and John Taylor. Do Dave Holland and John McLaughlin still count as British, since they moved far from the British scene?


----------



## stratcat (Oct 23, 2015)

Matt S said:


> It makes me happy to see so much positive and knowledgeable jazz conversation on here, and so much I agree with.
> 
> This is interesting to hear about jazz in the UK. I love a lot of British jazz, but it's not the 50s and 60s hard bop you like. However, it's not Evan Parker's free jazz so much either. I listen to a lot of John Surman, Kenny Wheeler (I know, born Canadian, but for all intents and purposes he was a British jazz musician), John Dankworth and John Taylor. Do Dave Holland and John McLaughlin still count as British, since they moved far from the British scene?


I guess I was talking more about the grass roots scene. There are, and have been, of course, some spectacular jazz musicians in and from the UK. But, it seems that it's a case of ever diminishing (no pun intended!) circles. With nowhere to play where will the 'new' players hone their craft. It's not as easy to learn to play Jazz sat at home with a laptop and youtube videos like you can with rock and pop music. So much of Jazz relies on interaction with other musicians.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

These vocal groups are hard to classify, but I agree on Lambert, Hendricks, & Ross. Pretty sure that they were an earlier vintage, and were precursors to groups like the "Manhattan Transfer".

Funny, when MT does 4 Brothers, it lets you mentally blend this in with the original Woody Herman group that included such future giants as Al Cohen (who wrote it, I think), Zoot Sims, and Stan Getz.


----------



## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

stratcat said:


> I guess I was talking more about the grass roots scene. There are, and have been, of course, some spectacular jazz musicians in and from the UK. But, it seems that it's a case of ever diminishing (no pun intended!) circles. With nowhere to play where will the 'new' players hone their craft. It's not as easy to learn to play Jazz sat at home with a laptop and youtube videos like you can with rock and pop music. So much of Jazz relies on interaction with other musicians.


I see. The only younger guy I'm familiar with is Gwilym Simcock, but I know he's been playing with Americans lately.


----------



## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

I took a Jazz history course in college. I love a wide range of music and am always looking for something new. I figured experiencing the history of Jazz would be perfect for me. I was disappointed that I couldn't get into it. There were some good songs here and there, but nothing really caught on. I will have to say my favorite is Count Basie though. I can listen to him every once and a while.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I'll admit to significant blind spots in my tastes. Because I listen to music mostly at work (this will change, as I now have a new house with room for a stereo), I tend toward more extroverted music, or music that I already know very well, and so I don't mind listening to it passively, over and over (e.g. Bach's keyboard music: I figure I still have decades to absorb it). I can't recommend "mind-blowing" jazz albums, because I don't know if my mind was ever blown by a recording. Live performances, yes: I had heard Cecil Taylor on LPs, but then I heard him live in Stuttgart, with Tony Oxley on drums, and was so excited afterward I couldn't sleep. I saw Sun Ra's Arkestra in Stuttgart as well...and yeah, that blew my mind. Even the "free-blowing" seemed to be part of some inviting ritual, and it was interspersed with furious, old-fashioned swing that had 100s of German couples jitterbugging.

Perhaps you have to have been a band geek to appreciate the power of a swing band. It took me a long time to get to the point where I can find the Eroica rhythmically more exciting than most rock music, but part of the excitement is in the unfolding: it's not a property of just one bar of music.

I know that Bill Evans is one of the most influential pianists of my lifetime, but I haven't yet made the effort to know him. Because of my listening habits, harmonic subtlety is going to be something I'll just miss. It matters. I think you begin to appreciate _Kind of Blue_ more when you sense the harmonic components that are still floating around, but no longer constraining the melodic flow.

I stick to my perverse recommendation of songs as an entry into jazz. Honestly, if you learn the words to "Sophisticated Lady," they will provide a mnemonic scaffold for the harmonies, and help you keep your place within instrumental versions.

* _Love & Peace: A Tribute to Horace Silver_, by Dee Dee Bridgewater
* _Carmen Sings Monk_, by Carmen McRae (I got a kick out trying to learn to sing some of these)

Commonly accepted classics with (I think) immediately arresting compositions that should convince you that the difficult harmonies serve some purpose, even if you don't yet know what it is:

* _And_ _His Mother Called him Bill_: Ellington's tribute to Billy Strayhorn, with a heart-rending version of the torch song "Daydream" as a threnody;
* _Getz/Gilberto_ (no number of incompetent renditions can ruin these songs);
* _Juju_ by Wayne Shorter, or anything from that period, or any of this recordings with Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers;
* _The Sidewinder_, by Lee Morgan (catchy, sort of "soul jazz," but the catchiness is spiked with more difficult harmonies);
* Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers,_ Moanin'
* Clifford Brown & Max Roach

_"Hard Bop" was a movement away from the speed-demon tempos of bop and extreme angularity, and most listeners like it right away. As you get into the late '60s, things get trickier.

I'd recommend _any_ album with the word "Standards" in the title, with Bill Frisell on guitar and Paul Motian on drums. Great way to learn the standards.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

SlideGuitarist said:


> * _Juju_ by Wayne Shorter, or anything from that period, or any of this recordings with Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers;


Juju is great, but I'd say Speak No Evil and Night Dreamer are probably more "essential" recordings, at least to me. Speak No Evil is sort of a desert island level recording. From Art Blakey's recordings at this period I'd say Free For All is a must own, followed by Mosaic, then maybe Ugetsu, Caravan, etc.

I love this video from San Remo of them playing "Children of the Night" from Mosaic. Check out Art's cymbal around the 2:58 mark, LOL! Curtis comes to his rescue.





From the 50s Messengers, I agree that Moanin' is definitely a must have. The Live at Birdland sessions with Clifford Brown and Lou Donaldson are of course great too!

Other 60s recordings that I think are really in the must have category (in addition to The Sidewinder which you already mentioned) are Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage and Empyrean Isles, McCoy Tyner's The Real McCoy, Oliver Nelson's Blues and the Abstract Truth, Horace Silver's Song For My Father and Cape Verdean Blues, and Joe Henderson's Mode For Joe (or several other of his recordings).

Joe's Live at the Lighthouse is one of my personal faves. The front line of Joe and Woody Shaw is just amazing! George Cables posted this on Facebook a couple of weeks ago. Check out the time of the gig!


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm sold, Fred!


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Fred G. Unn said:


> Other 60s recordings that I think are really in the must have category (in addition to The Sidewinder which you already mentioned) are Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage and Empyrean Isles, McCoy Tyner's The Real McCoy, Oliver Nelson's Blues and the Abstract Truth, Horace Silver's Song For My Father and Cape Verdean Blues, and Joe Henderson's Mode For Joe (or several other of his recordings).


All of these are superb recordings. Horace Silver's bluesy-soulful LPs are a good introduction to jazz. I love his album "Tokyo Blues."

I wouldn't recommend this to beginners, but I really dig Max Roach's quintet sans piano, with Booker Little on trumpet and Ray Draper on tuba (!). The album is "Deeds Not Words."

And Eric Dolphy cannot be forgotten. Again, not for beginners, but man does Dolphy hit the spot. My favorite record of his is "Out There." He also recorded "Live at the Five Spot" with Booker Little.

Kenny Dorham had a really great ensemble he called "The Jazz Prophets" (a takeoff of Blakey's "Jazz Messengers"). That group recorded a couple albums live at the Cafe Bohemia that are exemplary. There's a mournful quality to that music that really appeals to me. Plus, the album cover is awesome:


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Nice posting, Gamma! I was trying to think of more extroverted recordings that would come out to meet the listener more than halfway (notwithstanding the length of my posting, I was at the office).

The Blue Note sound is pretty easy to like. 1. Do we have any enthusiasts for the Soul Note / Black Saint era? The AACM? I'd recommend the Art Ensemble's _Full House_. 2. Can we think of recordings in which the sheer virtuosity of the lead player should delight even the novice (say, Tuck & Patti? Joe Pass?)?

This is already a "vintage" recording: 
https://www.mosaicrecords.com/Novus...nry-Threadgill-Air-247/productinfo/247-MD-CD/

So is this:


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

gamma68 said:


> Shaver, anyone with an open mind and a desire to expand their musical horizons is welcome to join in.


All righty then...

My guess is that SG doesn't like jazz because it is not as approachable as punk. With the Sex Pistols, Ramones et al, you either get it or you don't, and you get it instantly (kind of like heroin, when you think about it). Jazz requires a more sophisticated ear, and I am somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned Coltrane's Ballads as a gateway drug. To me, at least, that's one of the more approachable jazz records.

My grandmother, RIP, made certain that I was educated about jazz. She never shoved it down my throat, just made sure to expose me to the genre, and I'm eternally glad that she did. We saw just about everyone we could; Buddy Rich, Dizzy Gillespie, Ella Fitzgerald and on down the list. Never saw Miles Davis or Pops, though, which I have always regretted. I didn't catch on immediately, but once I did, the rewards have been immense.

When people who love music--the kind of people who spend more on their stereo system than their car--create their list of Desert Island discs, they, almost inevitably, include records that are not approachable. While not a jazz record, Trout Mask Replica is an excellent example. You can listen to that record again and again and again and again and catch something new almost every time. That's why, if you had only a limited number of records that you could hear, you would choose Trout Mask or something by Charlie Parker or Miles Davis over Never Mind The Bollocks or any given Rolling Stones record. The latter records would drive you batty after awhile. The former selections can be played and replayed and then played again without growing stale.

So, SG, it is, really, a matter of getting out of it what you put into it. If you're the sort who sees music as a backdrop, something to play while you're cooking a meal or fixing the car or mowing the lawn, then you are not, I think, as likely to enjoy jazz as someone who puts the needle down then sits back and concentrates, really concentrates, on what is coming out of the speakers. Ken Burns had this part, at least, right: Jazz is as close to a purely American music as can be found on this planet. With this in mind, the only real question is: Why do you hate America?


----------



## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

Speaking of pianists, what about Art Tatum and Bud Powell?

Two giants - Tatum, especially - Alex Ross has a nice passage about him in _The Rest is Noise,_ which is essential reading on 20th century western music.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

gamma68 said:


> I wouldn't recommend this to beginners, but I really dig Max Roach's quintet sans piano, with Booker Little on trumpet and Ray Draper on tuba (!). The album is "Deeds Not Words."
> 
> And Eric Dolphy cannot be forgotten. Again, not for beginners, but man does Dolphy hit the spot. My favorite record of his is "Out There." He also recorded "Live at the Five Spot" with Booker Little.
> 
> Kenny Dorham had a really great ensemble he called "The Jazz Prophets" (a takeoff of Blakey's "Jazz Messengers"). That group recorded a couple albums live at the Cafe Bohemia that are exemplary. There's a mournful quality to that music that really appeals to me.


Ok, you got me on Deeds Not Words. I gotta check that one out. I love that Booker Little +4 recording with Max though. Out There, Out to Lunch, and the Five Spot recordings are all great! Do you have the KD fake book that Don Sickler published? Walter Davis, Jr. arranged 30 KD compositions for piano and it's a really fantastic look at KD's music. I can scan a page or two if there's a KD tune you want to check out:
https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/K-D-30-Compositions-by-Kenny-Dorham-sheet-music/2871927



SlideGuitarist said:


> So is this:


At the risk of completely outing myself, [email protected] commissioned me to write a suite of Sun Ra tunes for what would have been his 100th birthday a couple of years ago. I had a great time checking him out in depth and coming up with fun creative stuff for us to play.



WillBarrett said:


> Speaking of pianists, what about Art Tatum and Bud Powell?
> 
> Two giants - Tatum, especially - Alex Ross has a nice passage about him in _The Rest is Noise,_ which is essential reading on 20th century western music.


I love "The Rest is Noise" too, as it's a really great book on 20th century music. Art Tatum of course is a monster. Since he was blind, one of the ways he learned was from piano rolls, but he didn't realize they would often go back and punch in the bass notes 8vb, so he learned to play them. His technique was amazing!

Bud's mental issues and hospitalizations of course are well documented, but Bud in his prime was incredible both as a player and as a composer. For further reading, I really like "Notes and Tones" by Art Taylor. Since he was a legendary drummer himself, AT had access to musicians and they were candid with him in a way they wouldn't be with a reporter. He made sure to ask everyone he interviewed about Bud and Bird so there are some great stories about Bud in there.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

True about Bud Powell, but I tend to think that Tatum's pianism will be hard to appreciate unless you know a lot of the show tunes he..."improvised on" hardly seems adequate. In my understanding, the story about Horowitz digging him is apocryphal: true? 

One great jazz pianist who is not pianistic in a classical sense is Andrew Hill. And I watched a documentary on Monk with a classical pianist who told me that his technique was bad. Yeah, whatever.

A band I got to see live a few times was George Adams and Don Pullen's: very extroverted stuff.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Fred G. Unn said:


> Ok, you got me on Deeds Not Words. I gotta check that one out. I love that Booker Little +4 recording with Max though. Out There, Out to Lunch, and the Five Spot recordings are all great! Do you have the KD fake book that Don Sickler published? Walter Davis, Jr. arranged 30 KD compositions for piano and it's a really fantastic look at KD's music. I can scan a page or two if there's a KD tune you want to check out:
> https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/K-D-30-Compositions-by-Kenny-Dorham-sheet-music/2871927


Thanks for your offer of KD compositions, but I play guitar (mostly acoustic).

Here's a great clip (shaky video but the music is _phenomenal_) of the Max Roach Quintet with Booker Little:

(I have to add that Max is a badass mo-fo in this clip. And Booker died at age 23--a tremendous loss to jazz. And this happened shortly after the death of Clifford Brown. I've read that Max was devastated by the loss of both men.)


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

SlideGuitarist said:


> A band I got to see live a few times was George Adams and Don Pullen's: very extroverted stuff.


I only got to see them live once at the Atlanta Jazz Festival, but that was a great band. I have the Mosaic Select box set of that band, I need to listen to it more.



gamma68 said:


> Here's a great clip (shaky video but the music is _phenomenal_) of the Max Roach Quintet with Booker Little


That's fantastic, thanks! I definitely need to check out some more pre-Miles recordings of Big George too. I've seen him a zillion times in NYC.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I saw George Adams & Don Pullen in Ypsilanti, MI, at the Frog Island Music Festival. You know how festivals are: I think he followed Albert King! George Adams, IIRC, was a big, exuberant guy, and the honking and squealing were part of the show. I don't know if I'd have enjoyed it if I'd encountered it on a recording. Live, it was the equivalent of a blues guitarist's stinky face, and I managed to get used to it.

Also fun, and I'm pretty sure I bought the following as a high school student, based on a review in _Creem _magazine, or maybe _Rolling Stone_. That's how badly I wanted to be cool, but hey, look at me now!


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

SlideGuitarist said:


>


That one is on the Mosaic box set that's currently on sale:
https://www.mosaicrecords.com/prodinfo.asp?number=247-MD-CD

I love some of the really creative things Threadgill did, but I just can't get into that laser beam of an alto sound.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Fred G. Unn said:


> ...I just can't get into that laser beam of an alto sound.


There you are! There's a limit for everyone, and Albert Ayler is mostly on the other side of it, for me.


----------



## Natty Beau (Apr 29, 2014)

Jazz has become one of the great simple pleasures of my life (especially since unlike clothes, cars, or scotch, great music does not necessarily cost any more than mediocre music) and I have built a little collection of CDs and vinyl and been to a show or two when I can.

Pandora recently turned me on to a new jazz artist named Sean Jones. I've heard a lot of music from his album "Roots." I wonder what a critically-minded musician like yourself might think of that. Not sure if it's new ground or not, but it's nice to hear someone carrying on the tradition.

Edit: I hope I catch your upcoming show on PBS.



Fred G. Unn said:


> Just to dispel the notion that jazz died in the late 1960s, there are many, many great musicians that continue the jazz tradition in different directions other that the "young lion" movement of the 1980s-90s.
> 
> He's no longer alive, but Woody Shaw was probably the next great innovator after Trane IMO, and went in a different direction than the fusion players of the 1970s. While he doesn't tend to get his due from critics and authors, Woody's compositional, harmonic, melodic and intervallic conception is very original and incredibly influential on many of the best players today. Here's his band at the Vanguard in 1978:
> 
> ...


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

SlideGuitarist said:


> There you are! There's a limit for everyone, and Albert Ayler is mostly on the other side of it, for me.


I'm a saxophonist and while I love a broad range of saxophone styles, that thin, bright alto sound is not one of them.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Natty Beau said:


> Pandora recently turned me on to a new jazz artist named Sean Jones. I've heard a lot of music from his album "Roots." I wonder what a critically-minded musician like yourself might think of that. Not sure if it's new ground or not, but it's nice to hear someone carrying on the tradition.


Sure, Sean is a friend of mine! I even did a couple of gigs with his band probably 15 years ago. I know the guys in his band really well, and play with them often. He's up at Berklee now and is head of the brass department. Nice to see him and Ralph Peterson teaching the kids how it's done. Anything with Sean on it is likely great. Coming up he was with the Lincoln Center band for a couple of years, Arturo O'Farrill's band for a while, Ralph Peterson's, etc. There are some amazing YouTube videos with him basically playing the Miles Davis chair with Herbie, Wayne, Marcus Miller, etc. Sean's a bad dude! (BTW, Keyon Harrold plays the Miles stuff in the upcoming Miles movie.)


----------



## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

I love jazz and I'm very fortunate to live in the broadcast area of a 24/7 Jazz station https://www.jazz.fm. I love the greats like Davis, Brubeck, Oscar Peterson, Ella Fitzgerald and the new players like Melody Gardot, Christian McBride, Gregory Porter and Snarky Puppy.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Fred G. Unn said:


> I love some of the really creative things Threadgill did, but I just can't get into that laser beam of an alto sound.


I understand what you mean. The antithesis of that alto sound, for me, is the playing of Paul Desmond. He once described his sound as like a "dry martini." Wish I could have seen him play (as my father did in the early 1960s). This particular track is absolutely gorgeous:


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

gamma68 said:


> I understand what you mean. The antithesis of that alto sound, for me, is the playing of Paul Desmond. He once described his sound as like a "dry martini."


Desmond of course was very popular and influential, although not so much on me personally. My favorite Desmond recordings were the ones where I liked to hear him get away from the Brubeck style, like the one with strings, or the CTI records from the 70s.

Desmond w/strings: 



on CTI: 



and: 




Check out his version of Warm Valley on that last one. If you aren't familiar with it, it was a Johnny Hodges feature with Duke's band so I imagine he played it as a tribute to Hodges.

Here's Duke and Hodges: 




Duke with the titles, "Warm Valley," he he


----------



## cglex (Oct 23, 2006)

I know I am jumping in late in the thread, but back to the start of it, the problem with jazz today is the audience or lack of it. To enjoy jazz it is helpful that you enjoy music in its richest forms and many varieties. Music isn't really taught in schools to those who don't grow up with it any more. The trend for the last 50 years is simple and dumb and that jazz is not. The same is true for classical. But there is still hope, given last night's Grammy's, maybe funk will make a come back.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

In our discussion of young talented jazz artists, Andreas Varady is one you might keep on the lookout for.

He is @26, and a hugely talented jazz guitar musician.Seems like a Wes Montgomery, or Kenny Burrell of the future.


----------



## Color 8 (Sep 18, 2015)

SG_67 said:


> I never liked jazz and never will. To me it's random noise.
> 
> Whatever legitimacy it may have had was lost once *it became identified with the beat generation and baby boomers wanting to seem sophisticated.  *[ed. - emphasis added.]
> 
> I never understood the appeal of a heroin addled musician belting out nonsense out of a trumpet and being declared a genius.


This. And thank you, it's nice to hear someone else say it.

Even though I _do_ like some jazz, I'm not willing to climb over the wall of pretentiousness and smug elitism that has been built around the entire genre.

Jazz is dying out for the same reason as many men's clubs - for the most part, the crowd that's already there doesn't really want new members, and hasn't for 40 years.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I can honestly say that the listenership for classical music is elitist, as evinced in my encounters with them: way too many discussions about audiophile gear, complaints that the performance we just attended was not as impressive as the one they saw at La Scala, obsessions with star conductors, etc. etc. etc.

You know what? It doesn't matter. A complaint about elitism is usually a projection of some petty, sour-grapes _ressentiment_. Classical music is worth the effort. If you resent music that requires effort simply for that reason, it's your loss.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Color 8 said:


> This. And thank you, it's nice to hear someone else say it.
> 
> Even though I _do_ like some jazz, I'm not willing to climb over the wall of pretentiousness and smug elitism that has been built around the entire genre.
> 
> Jazz is dying out for the same reason as many men's clubs - for the most part, the crowd that's already there doesn't really want new members, and hasn't for 40 years.


I don't know where this notion of "pretentiousness" and "smug elitism" comes from with regard to liking jazz. Maybe you need to find new friends?

Frankly, I'd like to welcome new listeners and encourage them to explore the genre. If you're not willing to open your ears and discover something new, well, to echo SlideGuitarist, it's your loss.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I have spent the evening immersed in 'A Love Supreme. I shall provide my initial thoughts in the morning. Suffice it to say I am now of the firm belief that the Jazz naysayers are at best unfortunate and at worst cloth eared ignoramuses.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Color 8 said:


> Even though I _do_ like some jazz, I'm not willing to climb over the wall of pretentiousness and smug elitism that has been built around the entire genre.





gamma68 said:


> I don't know where this notion of "pretentiousness" and "smug elitism" comes from with regard to liking jazz. Maybe you need to find new friends?


At least in my experience, the pretentiousness and smug elitism only exists with musicologists in university settings. It doesn't exist with musicians or the audience in a club. Color 8, you're in Philly, go check out someone playing at Chris' Jazz Cafe, or Time, or South, or anywhere. There's no pretentiousness or elitism at a club.

https://www.chrisjazzcafe.com/calendar
https://www.southrestaurant.net/events.php
https://www.timerestaurant.net/#!blank/qmpo9

The first set is already sold out, but I would encourage you to go hear Chris Potter's 10pm set at Chris' Jazz Cafe (Chris is unrelated to Chris Potter) this Saturday. Potter is one of the most incredible saxophonists alive and I'm sure his set will be amazing. It will be the opposite of pretentious and elitist. Sit at a table up close and really see what they are doing, or sit at the bar in the back, get drunk and just take it all in.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

cglex said:


> I know I am jumping in late in the thread, but back to the start of it, the problem with jazz today is the audience or lack of it. To enjoy jazz it is helpful that you enjoy music in its richest forms and many varieties. Music isn't really taught in schools to those who don't grow up with it any more. The trend for the last 50 years is simple and dumb and that jazz is not. The same is true for classical. But there is still hope, given last night's Grammy's, maybe funk will make a come back.


Maybe kids today need to learn to like jazz.


----------



## Color 8 (Sep 18, 2015)

SlideGuitarist said:


> I can honestly say that the listenership for classical music is elitist, as evinced in my encounters with them: way too many discussions about audiophile gear, complaints that the performance we just attended was not as impressive as the one they saw at La Scala, obsessions with star conductors, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> You know what? It doesn't matter. A complaint about elitism is usually a projection of some petty, sour-grapes _ressentiment_. Classical music is worth the effort. If you resent music that requires effort simply for that reason, it's your loss.


Apparently your experience with classical music is similar to my experience with jazz - it's not the music that turns me off, it's the people around it.

I _like_ the standards, and still _do_ - I was a huge fan of the original Miles Davis Quintet, especially with John Coltrane. I was _at least _as much a fan of Coltrane's early quartet with McCoy Tyner, and saw Tyner in NYC more than once. It's impossible _not_ to like _Kind of Blue_, _My Favorite Things_, _A Love Supreme_, etc IMO.

Of course it all moved on ; the genre became too avant-garde to bother with that sound much anymore, and the venues and record stores were increasingly populated by people who came off like Alex Trebek. Musicians were hobbling around in trances, babbling through their instruments like Sufi mystics. The term _genius_ was applied to _everyone_ ; some were even canonized as Saints. Dave Brubeck recorded every time he walked past a piano, generating 673 albums comprising over three million hours. At some point, I just couldn't get into it anymore.


----------



## Color 8 (Sep 18, 2015)

gamma68 said:


> I don't know where this notion of "pretentiousness" and "smug elitism" comes from with regard to liking jazz. _*Maybe you need to find new friends? *_
> 
> Frankly, I'd like to welcome new listeners and encourage them to explore the genre. If you're not willing to open your ears and discover something new, well, to echo SlideGuitarist, it's your loss.


You may be right ; while that has been my experience around _here_, I found New Orleans to be completely the opposite - accessible and fun.


----------



## Color 8 (Sep 18, 2015)

Fred G. Unn said:


> At least in my experience, the pretentiousness and smug elitism only exists with musicologists in university settings. It doesn't exist with musicians or the audience in a club. Color 8, you're in Philly, go check out someone playing at Chris' Jazz Cafe, or Time, or South, or anywhere. There's no pretentiousness or elitism at a club.
> 
> https://www.chrisjazzcafe.com/calendar
> https://www.southrestaurant.net/events.php
> ...


Ok, your earnestness has persuaded me. If I can make it Saturday, I'll be in the back getting drunk and taking it all in


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

gamma, thank you for the 'A Love Supreme' recommendation, this is exactly what I required: a balance of dissonance and melody that is simply enchanting.

A trickle of notes, reminiscent of an orchestra tuning up, prelude 'acknowledgement' then crystallised by Tyners piano runs, with an incremental freneticism of sax building layers of sound until a surge of sensation envelops the listener, punctuated by shrieks evoking imagery of a metallic spider skittering across glass.

Resolution is an early front-runner as my favourite movement, a blanket of cosseted drifting, ethereal stately majesty, is embedded within these grooves.

The extended bass noodling of 'pursuance' is not immediately appealing to me, however.

The self-pitying wail of tenor despair that Coltrane squeezes from his horn throughout 'psalm' is breathtaking, with drums rumbling like the thunder of a vengeful god.

All remarkably thrilling so far and I have not yet begun to listen to the second disc of live performance and session out-takes.

.
.
.
.

.
.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

^ Shaver, if you liked the studio disc this much, you will likely enjoy the live performance. I believe a video of the live performance is also out there on YouTube. 

What are you seeking for your next jazz selection? More Coltrane exploration? Something different? Where is your mood taking you?


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> ^ Shaver, if you liked the studio disc this much, you will likely enjoy the live performance. I believe a video of the live performance is also out there on YouTube.
> 
> What are you seeking for your next jazz selection? More Coltrane exploration? Something different? Where is your mood taking you?


Well gamma, I fully intend to listen to ALS many more times. I do not feel that I have truly understood a piece until I know it inside out (which is a process that may take several years of returning to a disc if the music is particularly rich and complex).

This said, my next step urges me toward more atonal sax dissonance but remaining grounded by a group and especially with an accomplished pianist if possible - what might you suggest? Would your previous recommendation of 'A Shape of Jazz to Come' fit this bill?

.....
.
.
.

.
.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Color 8 said:


> Ok, your earnestness has persuaded me. If I can make it Saturday, I'll be in the back getting drunk and taking it all in


Have fun! It should be a great set!



Shaver said:


> This said, my next step urges me toward more atonal sax dissonance but remaining grounded by a group and especially with an accomplished pianist if possible - what might you suggest? Would your previous recommendation of 'A Shape of Jazz to Come' fit this bill?.


Glad you are enjoying A Love Supreme! There's no piano on that Ornette recording though. If you want to stay with Trane, "Crescent" is really a masterpiece by that same band. I would be curious to see what you think of McCoy Tyner's "The Real McCoy" too. McCoy of course is the pianist in Trane's band during this period, but "The Real McCoy" is from 1967 and features Joe Henderson on tenor, Ron Carter on bass, and Elvin Jones (also from Trane's band) on drums.

The 60s band that Miles Davis had is legendary as well. They play with a lot of freedom within a structure, sort of an inside-out approach where even though there is a set form, anything can kind of happen at any time. There are a lot of live bootlegs with this band where I can't figure out where the hell they are, and I think I saw an interview with Herbie Hancock where he admitted there were times they were all lost too! Any of the Miles mid-60s recordings with the classic quintet of Miles, Wayne Shorter, Herbie, Ron Carter & Tony Williams might be good to try, like ESP, Miles Smiles, Sorcerer, or Nefertiti.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I agree with the above. _Nefertiti_ is...mind-blowing. I don't think it's hard to like, either. In fact, since that band has left the 32-bar straitjacket behind, you don't have to know the chords to "Body and Soul" or "Autumn Leaves" to really enjoy it.

No votes for Sonny Rollins, _Saxophone Colossus_? "Blue 7," on that album, is the subject of an important but controversial essay (search "gunther schuller blue seven").


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

SlideGuitarist said:


> No votes for Sonny Rollins, _Saxophone Colossus_? "Blue 7," on that album, is the subject of an important but controversial essay (search "gunther schuller blue seven").


I've heard him give that lecture! I did one of those Jamey Aebersold camps after my senior year of high school, placed into David Baker's combo, and Baker got me a scholarship to go out to Gunther's "Festival at Sandpoint." Martin Williams was the jazz history teacher and they spent one class on "Blue 7" and "Blues for Philly Joe," both great recordings. Supposedly Sonny, who is very self-critical about his recordings, actually liked the Newk's Time date with "Blues for Philly Joe," "Tune Up," etc.

Of course Sonny is one of my all time heroes, I was just recommending more mid to late 60s stuff for Shaver. Here's one of my favorite Sonny CD's, live in Europe on the last tour before the Williamsburg Bridge period:


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaver said:


> Well gamma, I fully intend to listen to ALS many more times. I do not feel that I have truly understood a piece until I know it inside out (which is a process that may take several years of returning to a disc if the music is particularly rich and complex).
> 
> This said, my next step urges me toward more atonal sax dissonance but remaining grounded by a group and especially with an accomplished pianist if possible - what might you suggest? Would your previous recommendation of 'A Shape of Jazz to Come' fit this bill?.


I absolutely agree that multiple listenings are advisable to truly appreciate a recording. Listen with headphones, too, if you haven't already.

I think another member mentioned "A Shape of Jazz to Come." I don't own that recording but am familiar with the excellent track "Lonely Woman." In any event, there is no pianist on that recording.

I'm inclined to recommend Eric Dolphy once you've finished absorbing "A Love Supreme." There are lots of great Dolphy recordings out there, so narrowing down to one recommendation is tough. Here are two recommendations:

"Impressions" -- A John Coltrane live date with Eric Dolphy on alto sax and bass clarinet. The track "India" is absolutely wonderful and one of the greatest-ever live jazz recordings, IMO. McCoy Tyner appears on piano.

"Last Date" -- I've always really enjoyed this Dolphy album of live recordings. Dolphy plays alto sax, flute and bass clarinet. The group is European ensemble that does a solid job supporting him.

I'm very glad to learn that you've found "A Love Supreme" appealing, and enjoyed your description of the individual compositions.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

+1 to "Lonely Woman"...how anyone could not love that recording is beyond me.


----------



## Coliningus (Feb 18, 2016)

"Out to Lunch" is probably Dolphy's most well-known record, but his flute solo on Oliver Nelson's "Stolen Moments" was my first listening and I instantly became a fan.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Thank you gentlemen, the recommendations are much appreciated. A little research later and I have opted for 'Impressions' which I trust will be delivered sooner rather than later. In the meanwhile I am continuing to enjoy ALS and may venture to the extra disc shortly.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaver said:


> Thank you gentlemen, the recommendations are much appreciated. A little research later and I have opted for 'Impressions' which I trust will be delivered sooner rather than later. In the meanwhile I am continuing to enjoy ALS and may venture to the extra disc shortly.


"Impressions" is a great choice. Looking forward to your "impressions" of the recording.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Coliningus said:


> "Out to Lunch" is probably Dolphy's most well-known record, but his flute solo on Oliver Nelson's "Stolen Moments" was my first listening and I instantly became a fan.


Gotta admit, I am not a fan of his bass clarinet playing, which sounds ungainly to me.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I don't know if the sound of Bill Frisell playing standards (esp. with Paul Motian's very indirect drumming style) would drive a new jazz listener nuts. Probably. To some extent, you have to know these songs well enough to hear how these guys are playing around them. Not memorize the changes, but be pretty familiar with the melody of "Someone to Watch Over Me." I song I love.


----------



## Coliningus (Feb 18, 2016)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Gotta admit, I am not a fan of his bass clarinet playing, which sounds ungainly to me.


I like it because it's ungainly! Those pieces are verrry impressionistic and that's kinda what I dig about 'em. That said, I listened to that album in response to this thread for the first time in about two years.. whereas I probably play Stolen Moments every few months


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Fixed this for y'all: https://www.slate.com/articles/arts...best_reissues_vijay_iyer_john_zorn_maria.html


----------



## chosenhandle (Aug 8, 2015)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Fixed this for y'all: https://www.slate.com/articles/arts...best_reissues_vijay_iyer_john_zorn_maria.html


thank you for the link. I am always on the lookout for new jazz titles!


----------



## Monocle (Oct 24, 2012)

Late to the party guys. 

Living as I do, in and near a town with a renown Jazz Program College, I've been able to explore a bit. Having a wide variety of styles to pick from in the local music store, it has allowed me some time to pick out for myself what is timeless and satisfying to listen too -- to ME. I have gone classic Blue Note and Impulse to much of the Black Saint/Soul Note catalog. Ear-Rational, etc, and everything before and after, and in- between. I am a music lover in general. I like it all. I listen to it all. For me, the music I choose at any moment usually reflects the particular mood of my brain. I have a form of synesthesia in which I see patterns and shapes, sometimes colors, when I listen to music. Jazz seems to really affect this more so than most other music, and it kinda dictates what I listen to, just as much as a melody, or any particular hook does in pop or rock. Sometimes I seek out the more "noisy" stuff just because that's what my mood wants. Maybe that adds a dimension not already talked about above. I just wanted to add this point. I think we are as individual in our music tastes for any great number of individual reasons that goes way beyond the roots of the music, or our exposure, in itself - If that makes sense.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I wonder what albums we'd recommend that predate _Kind of Blue_. I'm trying to think of albums that were not conceived as albums, at least not to the same degree. Jazz up until bop was wasn't created or consumed according to this format.

_If someone were interested in learning about jazz, would you really not get him or her to listen to "West End Blues"?_ Nothing by Billie Holiday? Nothing by Ella Fitzgerald?

Here is a very short list of some stuff that popped into my head, and of course some of the Ellington recommendations were indeed designed as albums.

* _Ellington at Newport_
* Duke Ellington, _Blues in Orbit_
* Duke Ellington, _In a Mellotone_
* Duke Ellington, those live recordings from Fargo, ND (!!!!!!!)
* Louis Armstrong, _The Complete Louis Armstrong Decca Sessions 1935-46 _(Mosaic reissue)

Then there also "blowing sessions," none of which changed the world, but many of which are beloved:

* Miles Davis, _Bags' Groove_
* Wes Montgomery, oh, pretty much anything
* Sonny Rollins, _Way Out West_
* I'm at work, so I'll stop now.


----------



## Coliningus (Feb 18, 2016)

^ Since you mentioned Bags Groove I feel obliged to mention the Workin/Steamin/Relaxin/Cookin with the Miles Davis Quintet set of albums, all of which are excellent pre-KOB Davis, with Steamin being my personal favorite album of his.

And one cannot forget Ellington's first LP, Masterpieces by Ellington. The enjoyment he and the band have with being able to really stretch the songs out for the first time is palpable.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Coliningus said:


> ^ Since you mentioned Bags Groove I feel obliged to mention the Workin/Steamin/Relaxin/Cookin with the Miles Davis Quintet set of albums, all of which are excellent pre-KOB Davis, with Steamin being my personal favorite album of his.


I affectionately refer to these Miles LPs as the "Shootin'/Snortin'/Smokin' series. Great stuff.

I don't think his "Birth of the Cool" album has been mentioned--another nice introduction to Miles.

It seems that some new jazz listeners have trouble relating to a trumpet/saxophone ensemble. For them, I'd recommend starting with a piano trio. Any early Ahmad Jamal is solid, but especially "Live at the Pershing." This is the recording that got me into jazz. Jamal is our greatest living jazz pianist, IMO. Go see him perform if you ever get the chance. I've had the opportunity to do so twice.

After becoming acclimated to jazz trios, I'd recommend graduating toward a quartet with a lone saxophone. Something less frenetic than Charlie Parker, which is an acquired taste. Paul Desmond is an ideal choice, like his work with Brubeck. "Jazz at Oberlin" is a very nice recording.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

This morning it's _Steamin'_. Those are perfect recommendations, though anyone disinclined to like jazz is going to think of it as finger-snapping music. Eh, the heck with 'em. And seriously, if someone can't see the power and elegance of the big band, G-d help them.


----------



## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

I must say I was taken to see how many young musicians are out there carrying on the Jazz tradition, like Aaron Diehl. His Besoke Man's Narrative could have come straight out of the golden era.

See here for more of them: https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/11/millennials-shaking-up-the-jazz-world

In DC we have many venues to hear really good jazz.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

DCLawyer68 said:


> I must say I was taken to see how many young musicians are out there carrying on the Jazz tradition, like Aaron Diehl. His Besoke Man's Narrative could have come straight out of the golden era.
> 
> See here for more of them: https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/11/millennials-shaking-up-the-jazz-world
> 
> In DC we have many venues to hear really good jazz.


Lena Seikaly, who's a vocalist around DC, and is getting a lot of attention, is a relative of mine (to be honest, her dad is a cousin of a much older cousin of mine). I've seen her at Blues Alley. If you live in the area, we (this means anyone lurking) should meet up at a concert.


----------



## RyeGuy (Mar 19, 2015)

Natty Beau said:


> Pandora recently turned me on to a new jazz artist named Sean Jones. I've heard a lot of music from his album "Roots." I wonder what a critically-minded musician like yourself might think of that. Not sure if it's new ground or not, but it's nice to hear someone carrying on the tradition.


Sean Jones taught at Duquesne here in Pittsburgh for several years and played locally quite a bit. When I first moved here, I went to a Thursday night session led by Roger Humphries' band RH Factor. (Roger is a famous drummer, most notably for playing with Horace Silver on Song for My Father.) The 3rd set pretty much turns into an open stage and lots of musicians line up to play. It's my favorite set. Anyway, my first time there, Sean Jones showed up--of course he jumped in before the 3rd set  . He's the real deal. I'm sorry he moved to Boston!

I'm optimistic for jazz. There are young people who are passionate about it. Keep your ears open for Brett Williams. He studied at Duquesne and I caught him at a few of those Humphries sessions. The last I saw he was touring with Marcus Miller. For being so small, Pittsburgh really is a great jazz town.


----------



## RyeGuy (Mar 19, 2015)

gamma68 said:


> I don't know where this notion of "pretentiousness" and "smug elitism" comes from with regard to liking jazz. Maybe you need to find new friends?
> 
> Frankly, I'd like to welcome new listeners and encourage them to explore the genre. If you're not willing to open your ears and discover something new, well, to echo SlideGuitarist, it's your loss.


Agree. When I'm out listening to local live jazz the audience is very diverse, as are the musicians. Everybody seems to get along because they have a love of the music in common.

Every genre has its elitists, though. Ever listen to indie fans lamenting streaming radio because now people can listen to "their" music without having to special order albums of unknown bands from some guy who knows a guy who dates some girl who works in some hipster record store in NYC?


----------



## Coliningus (Feb 18, 2016)

gamma68 said:


> It seems that some new jazz listeners have trouble relating to a trumpet/saxophone ensemble. For them, I'd recommend starting with a piano trio. Any early Ahmad Jamal is solid, but especially "Live at the Pershing." This is the recording that got me into jazz. Jamal is our greatest living jazz pianist, IMO. Go see him perform if you ever get the chance. I've had the opportunity to do so twice.


Agreed! I very much like the piano trio recommendation for new listeners (and Ahmad Jamal in particular). Anytime I play Oscar Peterson Trio stuff (both guitar-bass and drums-bass configurations) for non-jazz fans they seem quite smitten with it. He's my go-to for late evening listening


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

RyeGuy said:


> Agree. When I'm out listening to local live jazz the audience is very diverse, as are the musicians. Everybody seems to get along because they have a love of the music in common.
> 
> Every genre has its elitists, though. Ever listen to indie fans lamenting streaming radio because now people can listen to "their" music without having to special order albums of unknown bands from some guy who knows a guy who dates some girl who works in some hipster record store in NYC?


I used to go to pretty pretentious places: the Knitting Factory back in the day, for example. I always found people to be enthusiastic and friendly. I have no idea where "pretentious" comes from. Read some "poptimist" criticism about Kanye West if you want to feel beaten down for not "getting it."


----------



## RyeGuy (Mar 19, 2015)

Coliningus said:


> Agreed! I very much like the piano trio recommendation for new listeners (and Ahmad Jamal in particular). Anytime I play Oscar Peterson Trio stuff (both guitar-bass and drums-bass configurations) for non-jazz fans they seem quite smitten with it. He's my go-to for late evening listening


Yeah, Jamal's _Live at the Pershing_ is a classic. :thumbs-up: I'd also recommend another Pittsburgh pianist, Erroll Garner's _Concert by the Sea_.

One of my favorite young pianists now is Christian Sands. If you like that trio format, check him out with Christian McBride in _Live at the Village Vanguard_, or with Alex Riel and Thomas Fonnesbaek on _Take One - Live at Jazzhus Montmartre, Copenhagen_--this is a killer album. (Here's _Lonesome Lover_: 



.)

I think I've turned more people on the jazz, though, with Les McCann and Eddie Harris' _Swiss Movement_ (live at Montreux). I tell you, if you're not a fan after hearing _Compared to What_, you'll never be.


----------



## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

I really want to get into some more Art Blakey. Moanin' is a great Jazz record.

Also recommend Hank Mobley's No Room for Squares.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

ArtVandalay said:


> I really want to get into some more Art Blakey. Moanin' is a great Jazz record.
> 
> Also recommend Hank Mobley's No Room for Squares.


Try "Jazz Messengers Live at the Cafe Bohemia" both volumes on Blue Note.


----------



## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Apropos, I had a very pleasant chat with a colleague who likes jam bands. We found common ground in John Scofield's jammier music, e.g. "Do Like Eddie," with Eddie Harris.


----------



## Coliningus (Feb 18, 2016)

RyeGuy said:


> I think I've turned more people on the jazz, though, with Les McCann and Eddie Harris' _Swiss Movement_ (live at Montreux). I tell you, if you're not a fan after hearing _Compared to What_, you'll never be.


Damn good recommendation, my friend! Never heard this before and it sure does swing; I'll be playin the rest of the show at work tomorrow without a doubt


----------



## Monocle (Oct 24, 2012)

Some sax recommendations.

I often enjoy listening to Ben Webster, just because of that tone.

Also, I love the complex but smooth playing of Frank Strozier. Great recordings, and pretty accessible (not too out there for Bop).

From the modern era, I like a local tenor from Dallas - Marchel Ivery, who had little output, but played that tough, sweaty Texas tenor style.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

'Impressions' was in my mail box yesterday. I have only had time to listen to the entire album once and an extra listen to 'India'. This music is just so civilised. The qualities of intellectual and visceral which are delivered in equal measure remind me of one other musical form, Opera.

Initial thoughts on India, ponderous, soporific and with a startlingly playful squawking at the turn of 9 minutes.

do-be, do-be, do-be, do-be, doody-do, parp!


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

India:

Scintillatingly awkward phrasing from the outset. Squealing, shrill, initially tentative as an inaugural intimate romantic encounter but with increasingly bold assuredness. The epitome of Nietzschean new ears for new music. Free associative thoughts clattering against the stave of imagination, ascendant upon a fountain of unthinkable note progressions, mutant blasphemous melodies infecting the listener with magnificent incurable sickness and unspeakable desire.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Up 'gainst the wall:

An abstract layering of leitmotif. Repetitious but never quite repeating. Rolling dice and spilt liquor. The notes pursue one another in infinite chase but no catch.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

After the rain:

A languorous hybrid, the bastard offspring of 'happy birthday' and 'my way'.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

My 10 favorite jazz LPs:

1. Ahmad Jamal Trio: At The Pershing--But Not For Me
2. Miles Davis: Kind of Blue
3. Yusef Lateef: Eastern Sounds
4. John Coltrane: A Love Supreme
5. Kenny Dorham: At the Cafe Bohemia, Vol. 1
6. John Coltrane: Coltrane (Prestige)
7. J.R. Monterose: The Message
8. Herbie Hancock: Empyrean Isles
9. Eric Dolphy: Out There
10. Danny Gatton: New York Stories

It's VERY tough to narrow down to 10.


----------



## RobertM (Feb 22, 2016)

My top ten jazz LPs

Miles Davis ~ Kind of Blue (the gateway LP for me)
Miles Davis ~ BItches Brew
Miles Davis ~ On the Corner
Charlie Parker ~ Bird/The Savoy Sessions (Master Takes)
John Coltrane ~ My Favorite Things
Tina Brooks ~ True Blue
Sonny Clark ~ Cool Struttin'
Jimmy Smith ~ The Sermon! (CD. Have not come across acceptable copy on LP yet.)
Wayne Shorter ~ Juju
Kenny Burrell ~ Midnight Blue (CD)

Whew. That was kinda hard.


----------



## RobertM (Feb 22, 2016)

This is killah.


----------



## GRH (Feb 3, 2014)

Shaver:
"Just so civilized." 
Just so.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^ I have been devouring the live recording of ALS and it is just as delightful as the studio version, if not more so.


----------



## phillytrad (Feb 20, 2016)

One of the best. Such an underrated tenor, the whole band is killer - love both Hank's and Grant's solos on Best Things in Life are Free.



RobertM said:


> This is killah.


----------



## GRH (Feb 3, 2014)

*Monocle: Sax*










Monocle said:


> "Some sax recommendations..."
> 
> Forgive me if I missed it, but no one seems to have mentioned Coleman Hawkins. His 1939 (none of that nasty beatnik stuff) rendition of "Body and Soul" (orig. published 1930) has cracked the code for many of the uninitiated.
> Listen to a plain vanilla version here:
> ...


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

GRH said:


> Forgive me if I missed it, but no one seems to have mentioned Coleman Hawkins. His 1939 (none of that nasty beatnik stuff) rendition of "Body and Soul" (orig. published 1930) has cracked the code for many of the uninitiated.


That's one of the most famous saxophone solos of all time, and was a huge commercial success for Hawk as well. The other enormously influential tenor of that era was Lester Young. Here's his legendary "Lady Be Good" solo: 




"Lester Leaps In" is a well known classic as well:


----------



## GRH (Feb 3, 2014)

Fred G. Unn said:


> That's one of the most famous saxophone solos of all time, and was a huge commercial success for Hawk as well. The other enormously influential tenor of that era was Lester Young. Here's his legendary "Lady Be Good" solo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links; Mr. Young will break your heart and put it back together again. 
Synchronistically, last evening a hipster (21st-century version) kid said I was "looking jazzy." 
Blame it on the tattersall OCBD and mohair Rooster tie.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

A brief reprise to this thread: I am still listening regularly and intently to the Coltrane discs, the pleasure increasing at each play.

I shall be attending my first Jazz festival shortly and am really quite excited at the prospect.

https://jazz.dk/en/copenhagen-jazz-festival-2016/frontpage/


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Charlie Parker was a horrid selfish person, and a junkie. He was also a genius. It doesn't seem fair that someone like that could be an epochal artist, *but art is amoral.* Miles Davis's _In a Silent Way _is pretty narcotic, in more than one sense, but that's hardly a knock on it.


No, art is not "amoral" - nothing is really amoral because virtually everything is shot through with morality - every action, every gesture, etc. We live in a moral universe whether you like it or not.

If you don't understand that, you don't understand what is meant by morality.

If you don't believe me, consider Dante, Shakespeare and Chaucer; or in the music world, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. Every word and note resonates with morality.

The idea that art is amoral is one of the biggest canards in modern/postmodern perceptions of art.

Anyway, I find jazz to be solipsistic, adolescent, and intensely narcissistic.

It should not be surprising that Derrida was a Jazz lover. Look at the man and his life and work. Jazz.

As Plato said over and over: there is a deep connection between the order in the music on listens to; and the order in one's soul (and, incidentally, order in the body politic.) Music can be sublimely educational in the true sense of the word; or profoundly corrosive. It's no coincidence that every political revolution has been preceded by a musical one.

I despise Theodor Adorno, but he was absolutely correct about jazz: "The aim of jazz is the mechanical reproduction of a regressive moment, a castration symbolism. 'Give up your masculinity, let yourself be castrated,' the eunuchlike sound of the jazz band both mocks and proclaims, 'and you will be rewarded, accepted into a fraternity which shares the mystery of impotence with you, a mystery revealed at the moment of the initiation rite."


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Shaver said:


> A brief reprise to this thread: I am still listening regularly and intently to the Coltrane discs, the pleasure increasing at each play.
> 
> I shall be attending my first Jazz festival shortly and am really quite excited at the prospect.


If you've been enjoying Trane, definitely hear the Charles Lloyd Quartet at that festival. He's amazing and he has a really fantastic band right now!

Here's a track from his 1965 release "Of Course, Of Course" where he's very much in a Trane sort of mindset:


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Fred G. Unn said:


> If you've been enjoying Trane, definitely hear the Charles Lloyd Quartet at that festival. He's amazing and he has a really fantastic band right now!
> 
> Here's a track from his 1965 release "Of Course, Of Course" where he's very much in a Trane sort of mindset:


Thank you Fred, that really is most kind of you. I shall take your recommendation.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Califax said:


> No, art is not "amoral" - nothing is really amoral because virtually everything is shot through with morality - every action, every gesture, etc. We live in a moral universe whether you like it or not.
> 
> If you don't understand that, you don't understand what is meant by morality.
> 
> ...


Morality is a fragile construct at best, a malleable deceit at worst, thus to ascribe a notion of morality to the magnificent indifference of our Universe is, generously, something of a bold claim. This said, if you are to be believed, then perhaps I do not understand your concept of morality, in which case would you be kind enough to expand upon this theme?

Further, this Adorno quote with which you align yourself - what does it mean? It is one thing to make a claim but quite another to evidence it. Castration symbolism? The animus towards pseudo creativity? Poppycock!


----------



## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Califax said:


> I despise Theodor Adorno, but he was absolutely correct about jazz: "The aim of jazz is the mechanical reproduction of a regressive moment, a castration symbolism. 'Give up your masculinity, let yourself be castrated,' the eunuchlike sound of the jazz band both mocks and proclaims, 'and you will be rewarded, accepted into a fraternity which shares the mystery of impotence with you, a mystery revealed at the moment of the initiation rite."


I must say that this is an epiphany to my disdain for the squawky "music" that claims to be so sexualized but seems so neutered and aimless.


----------



## GRH (Feb 3, 2014)

*"Anyway, I find jazz to be solipsistic, adolescent, and intensely narcissistic. "*

Not unlike golf.



Califax said:


> No, art is not "amoral" - nothing is really amoral because virtually everything is shot through with morality - every action, every gesture, etc. We live in a moral universe whether you like it or not.
> 
> If you don't understand that, you don't understand what is meant by morality.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Tempest said:


> I must say that this is an epiphany to my disdain for the squawky "music" that claims to be so sexualized but seems so neutered and aimless.


Perhaps Jazz permits us a reflection of ourselves?

At any rate I had supposed that your objection to the form was an expression of a larger objection to 'degenerate' cultures, coloureds and Jews and suchlike? My sincere apologies if this is an erroneous interpretation but the language you chose with which to express yourself seemed to hint in that direction.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Califax said:


> I despise Theodor Adorno, but he was absolutely correct about jazz: "The aim of jazz is the mechanical reproduction of a regressive moment, a castration symbolism. 'Give up your masculinity, let yourself be castrated,' the eunuchlike sound of the jazz band both mocks and proclaims, 'and you will be rewarded, accepted into a fraternity which shares the mystery of impotence with you, a mystery revealed at the moment of the initiation rite."


I guess I was posting about Charles Lloyd and missed this had been posted while I was typing. I haven't read any Adorno since college courses on "Philosophy of Music," and "Aesthetics" but that quote is one of the biggest piles of nonsense I have ever read about jazz, and is certainly more illuminating about the author than the subject.

Adorno wrote "Farewell to Jazz" and "On Jazz" in the 1930s, before what is now considered the "common practice period" of jazz. Using those quotes to refute jazz as it is practiced today, would be akin to me taking a quote from a critic of Palestrina from his time and using it as a rebuttal of the music of Beethoven. You're comparing apples and oranges. Furthermore as promoter of the avant-garde, I suspect the aleatoric nature of jazz would have appealed to Adorno if he could have gotten past the Tin Pan Alley and early swing styles, and certainly when you consider jazz as it has been practiced for the past 50 years.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> *Morality is a fragile construct* at best, *a malleable deceit* at worst, thus to ascribe a notion of morality to *the magnificent indifference of our Universe* is, generously, something of a bold claim.


I've bolded all of the "bold claims" for you to evidence the self-refutations in which you've blindly entangled yourself; and good heavens, you haven't even gotten past the first sentance!



> This said,


Which, you must admit, isn't all that much.



> if you are to be believed,


And why ought we to believe your claims, my fine little Sneetch? 



> then perhaps I do not understand your concept of morality, in which case would you be kind enough to expand upon this theme?


Yes, it's true you seem not to; and indeed I shall at least summarize very briefly for you how morality is traditionally concieved: in all acts, man strives towards the good and avoids what is evil; our every thought, word, and deed are so oriented. However, while the intellect may mispercieve what is good, he cannot help but act for the good _sub specie boni_ (interestingly, this is one of the fundamental ways in which a person does NOT have free will.) Every act is of a moral nature; there are no amoral acts.



> Further, this Adorno quote with which you align yourself - what does it mean? It is one thing to make a claim but quite another to evidence it. Castration symbolism? The animus towards pseudo creativity? Poppycock!


It means what it says.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Tempest said:


> I must say that this is an epiphany to my disdain for the squawky "music" that claims to be so sexualized but seems so neutered and aimless.


Exactly.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> Perhaps Jazz permits us a reflection of ourselves?


Not "ourselves" but "their selves." And yes, that's why it's accurate to call it solipsistic, adolescent and narcissistic.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

One of the signs of decadence in an art form is when both the practitioners of the "art" and the "audience" (broadly) are imbued with the conviction that art is supposed to "reflect" or "express" their selves. 

No great artist ever thought so; nor any great tradition. 

When this conviction sets in; the rot sets in as well. Jazz is a symptom of this.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

My thanks to you for this revelation of your thought. Albeit most likely not that which you had intended to convey.



Califax said:


> I've bolded all of the "bold claims" for you to evidence the self-refutations in which you've blindly entangled yourself; and good heavens, you haven't even gotten past the first sentance!
> 
> Which, you must admit, isn't all that much.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Califax said:


> One of the signs of decadence in an art form is when both the practitioners of the "art" and the "audience" (broadly) are imbued with the conviction that art is supposed to "reflect" or "express" their selves.
> 
> No great artist ever thought so; nor any great tradition.


I am no expert, but is this not a (or the) difference between high and low art?


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> My thanks to you for this revelation of your thought. Albeit most likely not that which you had intended to convey.


It's precisely what I intended to convey.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Tempest said:


> I am no expert, but is this not a (or the) difference between high and low art?


I suppose one could argue that; that's not, however, how I'd make the distinction.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Against my better judgement (this man, at least, is not compelled to strive towards the good) I am minded to engage with this. Perhaps you might enlighten us as to the function of Art? Where lies its purpose and how might the artists conviction be properly aligned?



Califax said:


> One of the signs of decadence in an art form is when both the practitioners of the "art" and the "audience" (broadly) are imbued with the conviction that art is supposed to "reflect" or "express" their selves.
> 
> No great artist ever thought so; nor any great tradition.
> 
> When this conviction sets in; the rot sets in as well. Jazz is a symptom of this.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Of course, given that which was revealed, you may believe this to be so.



Califax said:


> It's precisely what I intended to convey.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> Against my better judgement (this man, at least, is not compelled to strive towards the good) I am minded to engage with this.


Actually, it's against _my_ better judgement. There's an old saying in philosophical debate: "Cum negante principia nequit disputari" - roughly, "don't dispute with someone who denies (self-evident) principles" - the reason being that such a person's thoughts/assertions are not governed by the laws of reason. If we cannot agree that there is an_ is_, for example, what's the point of discussing anything?

So, for example, it is absolutely impossible that you are not compelled to seek the good. Even a suicide is, in the moment of the fatal act, seeking a "good." Even if a person does evil "on purpose" it is because they perceive it as a good, or they wouldn't do it. Et cetera. This is really not disputable.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Absolutely it is disputable. Your notion of self evident may be only that, your notion.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> Absolutely it is disputable. Your notion of self evident may be only that, your notion.


Okay, name one thing you do that violates the principle that you are compelled to seek the good.***

***it's cocktail hour & dinner here in Boston, so I won't be checking in until later. NB: cocktails and dinner are a good.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

As if I would admit that here.

Oh, and just for jollies:Quad gratis affirmatur, gratis negatur.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Enjoy your cocktails. It's past the hour for beddy-byes in England so until the morrow. Try not to do anything bad in the meantime.


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Some Jazz for the thread.


----------



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

cellochris said:


> Some Jazz for the thread.


Aww man, Clark Terry, heard him many times, and wish I went to visit him in the hospital in December when all the guys went down there, but we lost him in February. Speaking of unsung heroes, Joe Temperley passed away last week. What a baritone sound! Here he is playing "Single Petal of a Rose" on bass clarinet. This was part of Duke's "Queen's Suite" and originally there was only one copy pressed of this suite, for the queen of England.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> As if I would admit that here.


haha 

Well, it actually doesn't matter in a way.

First, whatever you answer you're going to run into the same issue that I've described. If you happen to like to torture infants for the fun of it, for example, and thereby believe that this exempts you from the principle that man is constrained to seek the good, you're mistaken. And you're mistaken because as I've said, while you are constrained to seek the good, you may very well misperceive the good (in any number of ways, but here we're going to have to get into the nature of the good, etc.). Man is constrained to seek an object _sub specie boni_ - that is, an object that is under the aspect of the good. You may very well misperceive the good and seek to torture infants for the fun of it; whatever you do, you are seeking some sort of good at every moment of your life. You cannot help doing so. As I've said, even the suicide at the fatal moment of jumping out the window is seeking the good. Even if you sat around your house staring at the walls, you're seeking what you perceive to be good. If you are working on your second bottle of scotch, even intentionally destroying your liver, you're seeking the good - or, more precisely, an object under the aspect of the good.

Anyway, this is not only true but to deny it is to admit - as Aristotle says in a colorful passage about denying first principles - that one is no more than a vegetable.

Second, notice how we've gotten off track here; what I argued originally is that all of our actions, thoughts, words are oriented with respect to a moral order; that there are no amoral acts. Whether you intentionally do bad things - and really are seeking your "bad" - or, whether you are constrained to always seek the good - is quite beside the point here; even if you're seeking evil *for itself *_- that is, for its own sake, which is impossible - _your every action, thought and word is still oriented to the moral order. As I said originally, there are no amoral thoughts, actions or words. There is no such neutrality; and that is clear when one understands the nature of what is meant by morality.



> Oh, and just for jollies:Quad gratis affirmatur, gratis negatur.


That quotation is often misused; there are many things - first principles, axioms, etc. - that must be assumed, without which no reasoning can even get a start. Formal proof of the principle of non-contradiction, for example, isn't really possible. Rather, the acceptance of the principle - whether implicitly or explicitly - is presupposed in virtually any argument; actually, in any proposition whatsoever.


----------



## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

^Do you believe in sin?


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Fred G. Unn said:


> Aww man, Clark Terry, heard him many times, and wish I went to visit him in the hospital in December when all the guys went down there, but we lost him in February. Speaking of unsung heroes, Joe Temperley passed away last week. What a baritone sound! Here he is playing "Single Petal of a Rose" on bass clarinet. This was part of Duke's "Queen's Suite" and originally there was only one copy pressed of this suite, for the queen of England.


That is some slick bass clarinet playing.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

FLMike said:


> ^Do you believe in sin?


Yes and that's a term used on the theological order; and it would denote any thought, word or action that a person wills towards an object that is under the aspect of the good _in appearance only_. This is why Plato thought that not "sinning" - seeking the good and avoiding evil - is ultimately about educating the intellect to know the good and not be deceived by appearances. One of the very important ways in which a person is so "educated" is via music. Disordered, degenerate music, on the other hand, disorients the intellect.


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)




----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Do you perhaps occasionally entertain thoughts that are original and not seemingly cribbed from a copy of 'Bluffer's guide to philosophy'?


Califax said:


> Yes and that's a term used on the theological order; and it would denote any thought, word or action that a person wills towards an object that is under the aspect of the good _in appearance only_. This is why Plato thought that not "sinning" - seeking the good and avoiding evil - is ultimately about educating the intellect to know the good and not be deceived by appearances. One of the very important ways in which a person is so "educated" is via music. Disordered, degenerate music, on the other hand, disorients the intellect.


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> Do you perhaps occasionally entertain thoughts that are original and not seemingly cribbed from a copy of 'Bluffer's guide to philosophy'?


I'll entertain any of your thoughts, whether they are indeed original - or, even if they are cribbed from said "Bluffer's Guide", seemingly or not.

I'm used to people bluffing because most people have neither debating experience nor anything beyond a woefully cursory education in philosophy.

Such people, for example, seem to have developed the sophomoric idea that philosophy is about word games and questioning - habitually and towards no end - whether your interlocutor, or even oneself, exists, etc.

This^^ sort of thing happens especially when such persons find themselves backed into a corner that they didn't anticipate; so they attempt to bluff their way, hoping to give the impression that they actually know more than they do.

So, yes I'm quite used to dealing with such people; by the way, in 5th century Athens they were known as sophists.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

This is but the snapping and snarling of a junkyard dog convinced of his royalty for he has been abandoned to preside over a patch of scrub littered with detritus.

Does Plato have anything to say about that? 

Your *ahem* corner could be seen coming a while back, by the way, but do please continue complimenting yourself if it reassures and comforts you. Perhaps it is time to pull on your leash?



Califax said:


> I'll entertain any of your thoughts, whether they are indeed original - or, even if they are cribbed from said "Bluffer's Guide", seemingly or not.
> 
> I'm used to people bluffing because most people have neither debating experience nor anything beyond a woefully cursory education in philosophy.
> 
> ...


----------



## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> This is but the snapping and snarling of a junkyard dog convinced of his royalty for he has been abandoned to preside over a patch of scrub littered with detritus.


Still trying to lose face with as little grace as possible, eh?



> Does Plato have anything to say about that?


LOL, somehow I think Plato and Aristotle and the like are lost on you. Pearls and swine and all that. 

My oh my, it's cocktail hour again.


----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Edit: I believe I shall bow out here. Do a little dance, convince yourself of your victory. Or continue this by PM. Or don't.


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)




----------



## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Fred, my sincere thanks for this direction. The Charles Lloyd Quartet were utterly astounding, my companion (fellow AAAC member, bernoulli) and I were thrilled, enthralled and delighted by the exceptional quality of these musicians. The delight they take in performance of their work and in one another's ability was charming as it was palpable.



Fred G. Unn said:


> If you've been enjoying Trane, definitely hear the Charles Lloyd Quartet at that festival. He's amazing and he has a really fantastic band right now!
> 
> Here's a track from his 1965 release "Of Course, Of Course" where he's very much in a Trane sort of mindset:


----------



## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Who has sheet music for All the Things You Are in treble clef?


----------



## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

xcubbies said:


> Who has sheet music for All the Things You Are in treble clef?


Here.


----------

