# Anybody not like shell cordovan?



## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I've searched through some older threads and it's clear that the majority come down on the side of cordovan. I'm contemplating buying a pair of Alden longwings in the coming weeks and am going back and forth over whether to go for shell or find a calf version.

I currently have only calf shoes and this will be my first pair. What's holding me back is the way that shell develops big rolling creases even when (apparently) properly cared for. Perhaps this look is an acquired taste (on previous threads I've heard this referred to specifically as a plus), but I prefer the way my calf shoes stay relatively smooth and don't seem to stretch and balloon around the creases. 

So maybe I'm being paranoid, but the only way to tell whether I'll really be bothered is to buy and wear a pair and that's an expensive proposition! So before I take the plunge I wanted to hear whether there's anyone else out there that's anti-shell for this or any other reason and also whether these large smooth creases are a given or a result of improper care (no shoe trees, etc.)

Thanks all.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm anti-cordovan because I think wearing shoes made from horse hide is creepy. I won't eat horse meat, either. I have no trouble with wearing calfskin or eating beef, however.


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## icky thump (Feb 2, 2008)

Too hot, too hard to break in.


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## Baywulf (Nov 5, 2008)

I have one pair, and while I like them, they were hard to break in!


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## chacend (Mar 4, 2008)

I've only got one pair so far (BB LHS) and I love them. However I really love all the calf longwings that I have (2xMacNeil, 1 Hanover LB Sheppard) and I got all of them for well under $200. I even got a great deal on the 1 pair of shells. I look at the Alden longwings all the time but the almost $600 price tag gets me every time.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

It's hotter than hell, it's heavier than lead, it takes years to break in, it doesn't look as good as calf, and oh yeah, style for style, my Aldens would cost 50% more in shell than calf. What's not to love?


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

I would say that, while I have several pairs of shell at this point, and I love the look, in a few cases, the creasing has been very uneven from the left to the right shoe. One shoe can crease INward while the other might crease OUTward. Not a huge deal, but for someone wearing them everyday - you might take notice.

Also, as steadily mentioned above, they are hard to break in for sure.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

*Anybody not like shell cordovan?*​Me! Me!

Before joining up here I'd never heard of shell cordovan and now that I have, it's a real turn-off, basically because of the snoots who wax on endlessly about them, always ready to jump in when somebody posts anothey grainy picture of a another bent up wing-tip and asks d_o ya think these are shell_?​
I'm with Rojo. I don't like to imagine stuff made from creatures I admire when alive. Sir Edmund Hilllary, the first to conquer Everest, famously said that he did so _because it was there._ I think the same reasoning might be used by some here if AE offered a balmoral made from a cat's ass. (Okay, so sophistication is not my long suit.)​


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## Andy M (May 12, 2007)

I wear shell's almost exclusively. While I have a few pair which took a while to break in, I have others such as the unlined Alden PTB on flex welt which needed no break in time. 

Andy M.
Delmar, NY


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

Andy M;1047422II have others such as the unlined Alden PTB on flex welt which needed no break in time.
Andy M.
Delmar said:


> an unlined cordovan variety in a ptb?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Well, well, well! Apparently there isn't a consensus on this issue! I have to say that, while I have no personal issue with wearing horse hide, the other issues (hot, heavy, stiff, uneven wear) certainly reflect my concerns.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Andy M said:


> I wear shell's almost exclusively. As a youngster, my grandfather would let me help him polish his shell cordovan shoes which he had for around 40 years at that point and I was always amazed at how close to new they looked after four decades of wear.


Touching. My eyes are watering. I thought this thread was for those who *don't* like shell.
​


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

Trip English said:


> Well, well, well! Apparently there isn't a consensus on this issue! I have to say that, while I have no personal issue with wearing horse hide, the other issues (hot, heavy, stiff, uneven wear) certainly reflect my concerns.


Trip, seriously, I think if you try them you'll like them.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

There's also the danger of water marks. Some shell cordovan shoes, and it's impossible to predict which, will develop raised welts upon exposure to small amounts of water, and in some cases, these welts never go away. I had this happen to me with a pair of AE MacNeils the first time I wore them - it was foggy that day, droplets of water got onto the shoes, and voila, they became permanently marked.

One can argue about the creasing or the stiffness, but no one, to my knowledge, spins the water marks as a plus.


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## Got Shell? (Jul 30, 2008)

I hate shell! Unfortunately shoes made from it are unrivalled in their magnificence, so I must wear them almost exclusively.


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## roman totale XVII (Sep 18, 2009)

I'll admit I've never owned a pair, only ever picked them up in a store and turned them over in hand whilst admiring the, er.. weight and robustness, shall we say. To be honest, I'm really not sure what the fuss is about. Not sure I've patience to wait 10 years for my shoes to start looking any good...:icon_smile_big:


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## AdamsSutherland (Jan 22, 2008)

I've noticed a number of comments over on SF from users who dislike shell.

Reasons cited include: Temperature, creases, they look like plastic, they don't shine up easily enough, price, availability of styles and colors, the water mystery, break-in, and weight.

Trip,

If you're going with a LWB, weight isn't an issue, it's expected and desired. You know what style/maker you want so you can cross availability of a design off the list too. The LWB is available in #8, black, cigar, ravello, and whiskey shell, you just might have to wait for some of the rarer colors. Mac has proven that high-gloss shines are readily achievable, even on a brand new pair of shell shoes. Also, by now you should be familiar with the look of shell LWB's and their creases. While every shoe creases differently, there's not a tremendous amount of variation in the creasing among LWB's due to design, something that CloserLook noted in his thread today. I had a 4 block walk back from a bar last night in the pouring rain and my shoes looked just fine this morning. The water mark issue really seems to vary from pair to pair. In some cases the water marks disappear entirely after a few days or weeks. It's just a mystery. I don't own a pair of quality calf skin shoes yet so I really can't comment on the temperature issue.

For those here who dislike the break-in period- do you expect an easy break-in on any pair of shoes with double soles? Wear shell hard, it'll hold up.

So I think you're really facing the following issues: Temperature (maybe), Water (you should have a pair of overshoes if rain is a concern, regardless of material), Price (which you're aware of), and Looks (your personal opinion regarding the look of shell).

I say go for it...I love the stuff and think it's great because of it's unique characteristics. But what do I know? I'm just a college kid who spends way too much time reading about this stuff.

Sidenote: 

CloserLook- LeatherSoul recently did a special makeup of an Unlined PTB in #8 and black SC with a single oiled-leather soul on the Barrie.


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## anonymouz (May 5, 2008)

Shell isn't good with water? For some reason I had the impression that they were good for wet conditions.


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

AdamsSutherland said:


> Sidenote:
> 
> CloserLook- LeatherSoul recently did a special makeup of an Unlined PTB in #8 and black SC with a single oiled-leather soul on the Barrie.


fascinating

I wonder how those wear, given that my only experience with unlined shell is in the BB LHS. 'Never in a laceup.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

I adore horsehide, but only in my jackets.

Since I have complete control over what I wear to work everyday, I'll take cheap Weejuns and Top-siders over shell anything anyday.

Some day my old brown Bates will give up the ghost and I'll have to buy a respectable brown dress shoe. Maybe I'll give in the Alden bug then. I like a shoe I can abuse.

No to shell for me.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Got Shell? said:


> I hate shell! Unfortunately shoes made from it are unrivalled in their magnificence, so I must wear them almost exclusively.


LOL. That is a scream - GS that was hilarious.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

I have come to appreciate shell and just acquired my third pair. 

The big creases do differ from the smaller creases than those on calf and may not be appealing to some.

As for the heat, I don't notice a difference between my shells and my calf shoes. 

They do take a bit longer to break in than calf and are a bit heavier. 

Either way, the Alden longwings are a great shoe.


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## Got Shell? (Jul 30, 2008)

Thanks gman! On a more serious note, some of the counterpoints are nonsensical to me. First of all: heat. I wear black shell Alden longwings in the MS Delta in the summer from time to time. Enough said.
I much prefer the big rolling ripples of shell to small micro creases because ripples never develop into cracks as long as the shoe dries out. I think every calf shoe will crack eventually. Shell cordovan is much easier to keep in top shape, just brushing and wiping clean is necessary. Much easier than calf which has to be polished much more often.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Peak and Pine said:


> Touching. My eyes are watering. I thought this thread was for those who *don't* like shell.​


I love it when you make fun of people's cherished memories.

Stay classy, P&P.


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## AdamsSutherland (Jan 22, 2008)

Pink and Green said:


> I adore horsehide, but only in my jackets.
> 
> Since I have complete control over what I wear to work everyday, I'll take cheap Weejuns and Top-siders over shell anything anyday.
> 
> ...


_Let me preface this by saying I don't really care if someone likes or dislikes shell, but I do believe in reason and logic. Don't take this too personally.

I also like addressing non sequiturs and other fallacies/absences of reasoning.
_
You didn't really state a reason for disliking shell, other than, as implied, price. In fact, as it pertains to this thread, I really don't see a purpose for this post-more posts maybe?- but that's okay. (I mean that sincerely.) Peak and Pine at least provided us with a laugh, though. Anyway, it seems that your dislike for shell is more rooted in a perceived incompatibility between your footwear needs/preferences and shell cordovan footwear offerings/your perception of said shoes' use- which is also fine. Regarding the whole purpose of this thread, which is ultimately to help TripEnglish decide if he wants to buy shell LWB's, discussions of price are somewhat moot though. After all, he is already considering taking the plunge to purchase a pair, right?

Also, I really doubt that you'd pick your Weejuns over a pair of BB unlined #8's if both were free. I paid less than double the price of my Weejuns for my "beater" pair of BB unlined penny's. I also ebay-ed a pair of Bostonian shell Weejun look-alikes for one third of what I paid for my Weejuns. Guess which shoe I don't wear anymore...

I know that there are times when maybe a Top-sider is a better choice of footwear, but I think that has less to do with the fact that a Top-sider is made of Chromexcel (or whatever aniline dyed leather Sperry uses) and more the fact that it is a casual, rubber-soled shoe. That is, unless you sail or fish and have a pair for that purpose, as some on this forum do; however, if that is the case you could get away with CVO's or some other non-leather shoe, too. You didn't discuss your opinion on the shoes when wet but I know that I avoid wearing my (waterproofed) Sperry's in the rain because once the toe soaks through, they just feel disgusting on my feet.

Now back to shell...I'm under the impression that a shoe made of shell can handle much more of a beating than an identical shoe in calf. Shell cordovan is a thicker and denser leather than calfskin. I recall reading somewhere on AAAT that, several decades ago, shell wasn't used in the highest-end shoes. Instead it was used and valued more for its durability.

So shell *can* be abused. People just choose not to because it's an expensive initial investment and there isn't a reason to. Most people like to take care of their stuff so it lasts longer. However for the sake of argument, consider the following- If a pair of shell shoes lasts only 10 years, it's about $50-60 per year-that's less than a new pair of Sperry's each year (even if you factor in 1 or 2 restorations along the way.) I can think of a number of individuals who've had their 986's for twice as long. And if you look at the ancient Florsheim Imperial Kenmoors that are always on ebay- they're tanks. They might not meet YOUR perceived, albeit not particularly well articulated or discussed, needs, but don't tell me that shell shoes are fragile.

Respectfully,


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Trip English said:


> I've searched through some older threads and it's clear that the majority come down on the side of cordovan. I'm contemplating buying a pair of Alden longwings in the coming weeks and am going back and forth over whether to go for shell or find a calf version.
> 
> I currently have only calf shoes and this will be my first pair. What's holding me back is the way that shell develops big rolling creases even when (apparently) properly cared for. Perhaps this look is an acquired taste (on previous threads I've heard this referred to specifically as a plus), but I prefer the way my calf shoes stay relatively smooth and don't seem to stretch and balloon around the creases.
> 
> ...


All of the items described pertain. I had one pair, but couldn't wear them. Much too hot, they don't breath. Also stiff and the noted creasing. However, I have no desire to ruin the pleasure of those that enjoy them. To each their own.

But I'm puzzeled. You like calf, don't like the way shell looks after being worn, and are concerned about other problems. So why do you think you want to buy shell?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

roman totale XVII said:


> I'll admit I've never owned a pair, only ever picked them up in a store and turned them over in hand whilst admiring the, er.. weight and robustness, shall we say. To be honest, I'm really not sure what the fuss is about. Not sure I've patience to wait 10 years for my shoes to start looking any good...:icon_smile_big:


This is pretty much me.

When BB was selling some cordos for 40% off a while back I was tempted, but to date I remain purely a calfskin man.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Don't like them enough to pay full retail, but my AE Randolphs (2ds on sale from years ago), and my "new to me" vintage Florsheim LWs sure have a purty color to 'em


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Flanderian said:


> All of the items described pertain. I had one pair, but couldn't wear them. Much too hot, they don't breath. Also stiff and the noted creasing. However, I have no desire to ruin the pleasure of those that enjoy them. To each their own.
> 
> But I'm puzzeled. You like calf, don't like the way shell looks after being worn, and are concerned about other problems. So why do you think you want to buy shell?


Excellent question with an easy answer. I am willing to embrace how much I don't know! I happen to sell a very high-end product that 95% of people would not understand the value of. I, being an insider, am privy not only to an arsenal of facts and figures, but to a personal experience with the product that I believe would convince anyone of the products' merit. So I realize on a day to day basis that people pass by incredible things and experiences simply because they haven't taken the time to get familiar.

So I try to be open to new things, especially when I sense a sort of "subculture" around a mysterious item. This is currently happening with the sack jacket, which initially repulsed me, until a certain amount of immersion lead me to a fuller appreciation.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

One more thing, am I on the right track with the Alden LWBs? I've decided, at least at this point, that the MacNeil is too close to my Bel Airs (pointier toe despite the bulkier construction), and the chances of me finding a Florsheim Kenmoor from the good old days in my size and width seems unlikely. I don't suppose there's another longwing out there in the ether that I should take a peek at? 

Price isn't really an issue. I was generally paying between $500-$800 per pair as it was. I'm more interested in the right shoe.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Having both AE MacNeils and Alden Long Wings, It seems to me you are on the right track. Alden's Long Wings do offer a somewhat more voluminous(?) toe box, than do AE's MacNeils. Actually, it was AE's redesign of the MacNeil toe box that convinced me to go the Alden route, at least with my LWB's! :thumbs-up:


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

Trip English said:


> One more thing, am I on the right track with the Alden LWBs? I've decided, at least at this point, that the MacNeil is too close to my Bel Airs (pointier toe despite the bulkier construction), and the chances of me finding a Florsheim Kenmoor from the good old days in my size and width seems unlikely. I don't suppose there's another longwing out there in the ether that I should take a peek at?
> 
> Price isn't really an issue. I was generally paying between $500-$800 per pair as it was. I'm more interested in the right shoe.


It would take you twenty minutes to shoemart to see the large inventory of both AE and Aldens


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Very true! I just realized last week that there was a brick and mortar Shoe Mart in Norwalk. I'll have to pay a visit.

Thanks everyone for your help!


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

Those in the know wear shell.

The look and feel of shell is to be acknowledged and understood
only by those who own them and appreciate them.

To foolishly say a calfskin pair of shoes looks better than a pair of shells
is akin to saying you prefer the looks and quality of a Chevrolet Tahoe 
to the look and quality of a Range Rover.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

At Law said:


> Those in the know wear shell.
> 
> The look and feel of shell is to be acknowledged and understood
> only by those who own them and appreciate them.
> ...


Until you pick up your Range Rover from the garage and pay the bill. (Not that I'd buy a Tahoe, but I've owned a Range Rover and if that's what I have to look forward to in shell than I'd just as soon where Crocs!)


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Got Shell? said:


> some of the counterpoints are nonsensical to me. First of all: heat. I wear black shell Alden longwings in the MS Delta in the summer from time to time. Enough said.
> 
> Perhaps to you the topic of heat is "nonsensical". The OP asked for insights as to drawbacks regarding cordovan shoes. I have tried them on many occasions over many years and can assure the OP that the breathability factor may be "nonsensical" to some but very real to others.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

At Law said:


> Those in the know wear shell.
> 
> .


Eye guess I'm knot in the no, huh?


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

At Law said:


> Those in the know wear shell.
> 
> The look and feel of shell is to be acknowledged and understood
> only by those who own them and appreciate them.
> ...


Some of us wear and appreciate both. Fine calf wears and ages in its own beautiful way, differently than shell but with no less quality.

Suppose for a moment that all men's shoes were made of shell cordovan and someone - Edward Green - introduced a new line of footwear that were lighter, cooler and broke in much more smoothly, made of fine-grained calf skin, and cost twice as much as the old heavy shell cordovan... I believe there would be a significant amount of appreciation for the new refinement.

That said, I get great pleasure from having worn certain pairs of shell shoes to hell and back and seeing how well they still appear and perform.


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

well-kept said:


> Some of us wear and appreciate both. Fine calf wears and ages in its own beautiful way, differently than shell but with no less quality.
> 
> Suppose for a moment that all men's shoes were made of shell cordovan and someone - Edward Green - introduced a new line of footwear that were lighter, cooler and broke in much more smoothly, made of fine-grained calf skin, and cost twice as much as the old heavy shell cordovan... I believe there would be a significant amount of appreciation for the new refinement.
> 
> That said, I get great pleasure from having worn certain pairs of shell shoes to hell and back and seeing how well they still appear and perform.


I certainly agree with your logic. The magic of marketing. :icon_smile_wink:

I enjoy wearing shells. However, all of my "dress shoes" are calf.
Calf can be polished to a finer shine and does look quite presentable
with a suit.

That being said, for a pair of tassels or penny loafers, shell is
the only way to go. My preference is BB (Alden).


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

Trip English said:


> Until you pick up your Range Rover from the garage and pay the bill. (Not that I'd buy a Tahoe, but I've owned a Range Rover and if that's what I have to look forward to in shell than I'd just as soon where Crocs!)


You should know, as a former Range Rover owner, that you never
own them out of warranty.

I don't foresee your new shells having a lot of maintenance issues.
Buy them and enjoy them.

And by the way, buy another Range
Rover--they're great trucks.


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## Got Shell? (Jul 30, 2008)

Like shell cordovan shoes, 80% of range rovers manufactured are still on the road...the rest made it home. Haha, sorry, couldn't resist.


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

Got Shell? said:


> Like shell cordovan shoes, 80% of range rovers manufactured are still on the road...the rest made it home. Haha, sorry, couldn't resist.


I hadn't heard that one. Very nice and probably very true. :icon_pale:


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## hsw (Dec 23, 2009)

Cars/SUVs have serious safety and reliability implications that shoes don't
But both share issues with daily-useability in inclement weather and heavy business travel (or daily commuting in case of cars)

Alden SC loafers are ~$525 and EG MTO loafers are perhaps $1600; suspect EG are less rain-resistant and more polish-intensive (a huge hassle for those who have no interest in DIY polishing or wearing silly ?shoe covers)

Recently bought a fleet of Alden SC blk loafers for daily use, but next time I'm in NYC will spec some EG MTO (?Top Drawer) blk loafers (prefer ability to spec details of stitching, sole, etc etc, sort of like MTM shirts, pants, etc)....and will relegate Aldens to CA winter rain-day duty and use a fleet of blk EG MTOs as my daily shoe

IMO, sleekest Alden SC is full-strap loafer, but even it is somewhat SUV/station wagon/minivan clunky...and really not "symmetric" for use in CA where some (incl self) commute daily via 600hp+ Mercedes 65 or Ferrari 599


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

I'm still in the I-like-shell camp, but I've had some terrible luck with vintage shell. I Ebayed a pair of longwings a year or two ago that were dried out, unbeknownst to me. When I wore them, they cracked at the sides of the vamp and I ended up having to get rid of them. 

So about a month or two ago I thrifted another pair of #8 Florsheim longwings in my size. This time I conditioned the daylights out of them with Lexol and Renovateur, even though they didn't look that dry. Got home today and went to take them off, and what did I see? Cracks. In the same spots as the last pair. :crazy: 

I am about fed up with vintage shell longwings.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

mcarthur said:


> It would take you twenty minutes to shoemart to see the large inventory of both AE and Aldens


Uncle Mac was absolutely right. A trip to The Shoemart was all that it took. Their selection is incredible and I got to spend some time with a lot of different models. I don't know if I'll ever eschew calf entirely, but I've decided to add a few shells to the collection.

I think I'm going to start with the LHS as summer's coming up and I think I'll get the most use out of it. I'll probably look to add a pair of longwings next fall. Unfortunately I now know about their seconds shelves so things might get a little out of control!


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Orgetorix, can you post pics? Do the cracks extend all the way through the shell or just on the surface? I have five pairs of "vintage" shells (4 are at least 20-25 years old), and only one has the tiniest crack but it hasn't grown larger. I'm just wondering what it looks like when shell cracks like that.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I've got one pair of the purplish colored Alden bluchers, 20 years old, and I'm still waiting for them to feel broken in. The lighter brown ones I see here are incredibly beautiful, though.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

The cracks seem to be surface-level right now, though they appear deeper when the shoe flexes. They don't go all the way through the upper yet. But the first time this happened to me, they started out this way and got worse. I'm going to try another application of conditioner and hope for the best, I guess.

Unflexed, right side: 









Unflexed, left side:









Flexed, right side:


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Ouch, those cracks do look pretty serious. Maybe I'll go condition mine again just in case


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## Enron (Feb 16, 2010)

AdamsSutherland said:


> _Let me preface this by saying I don't really care if someone likes or dislikes shell, but I do believe in reason and logic. Don't take this too personally.
> 
> I also like addressing non sequiturs and other fallacies/absences of reasoning.
> _


That's a nice way of being insulting without being insulting.

As far as shells go, I can't imagine i'd like something that heavy on my foot. Nothing wrong with them. I don't really get the "too hot" argument, however, because wearing anything other than running shoes during Atlanta springs/summers is going to give you swampfeet. Don't really see how anything could possibly be warmer than a regular pair of dress shoes on a hot summer day.


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## greekgeek (Mar 19, 2009)

Orgetorix said:


> Unflexed, right side:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Try the hot deer bone technique to see if you can seal those up.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Taliesin said:


> There's also the danger of water marks. Some shell cordovan shoes, and it's impossible to predict which, will develop raised welts upon exposure to small amounts of water, and in some cases, these welts never go away. I had this happen to me with a pair of AE MacNeils the first time I wore them - it was foggy that day, droplets of water got onto the shoes, and voila, they became permanently marked.
> 
> Once I went shell, that was it! Any kind of shoe material I had were second best. If all shoes right now were made of shell and someone comes up with calf, I will still take shell, any day.
> 
> ...


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

Trip English said:


> Uncle Mac was absolutely right. A trip to The Shoemart was all that it took. Their selection is incredible and I got to spend some time with a lot of different models. I don't know if I'll ever eschew calf entirely, but I've decided to add a few shells to the collection.
> 
> I think I'm going to start with the LHS as summer's coming up and I think I'll get the most use out of it. I'll probably look to add a pair of longwings next fall. Unfortunately I now know about their seconds shelves so things might get a little out of control!


i like your selection


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

greekgeek said:


> Try the hot deer bone technique to see if you can seal those up.


Can you explain some more? I'm willing to try anything that may have a chance of fixing them.


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