# Double-Breasted Suits: In? Out? Coming back in style?



## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Other than my DB navy blazer (which I rarely wear anymore), I haven't owned a DB suit in several years. However, I've noticed the style cropping up more and more in magazines. Could it be that DB is coming back into style? Your thoughts, please.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Seems like it to me.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I can't remember the last time I saw someone in my day to day life wearing a double breasted suit or blazer, although I will admit that I don't live in New York, Chicago, or some similar big city. Men's clothing seems to be much more simple these days and double breasted jackets just don't seem to fit into this mold. They appear fussier and more complicated.

Cruiser


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

I saw a double breasted blazer last week in Boston. Both buttoned and unbuttoned wearers appear regularly and stand out in the crowd in both Boston and New York, knowingly acknowledge each other among passerby, and walk on with a smirk, knowing they have reached GO and collected $200.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Cruiser, I sat next to a guy at dinner last night whom I had never met before. The gathering had nothing whatever to do with clothes or style or even cultural matters. He was wearing a DB jacket, albiet with no tie (I suspect he ditched it around 5 pm). Now, he _was _connected with a hedge fund.*

* Like all hedge funds, one that holds zero of my too-few dollars. I don't have that kind of cash. But he was a nice guy.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

The sharpest dresser at our church sometimes shows up in a DB seersucker blazer during the summer. I find that an odd mix--why have that extra layering in seersucker weather? But maybe that's a traditional combo, and in any case he does look great in it.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

CuffDaddy said:


> He was wearing a DB jacket, albiet with no tie (I suspect he ditched it around 5 pm).


While I have admitted that I don't like double breasted jackets (my Navy peacoat is an exception :icon_smile_big: ), I think that they don't translate well at all to a tieless look. Even Charlie Watts doesn't look good in a tieless double breasted suit.










Cruiser


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

I tend to agree witht the previous posts. DB is awfully complicated and fussy.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Cruiser, I didn't say he looked good. I just said he was wearing a DB jacket. I think they _are_ coming back, although in a very small way at the moment. Too many manufacturers/marketers are pushing them for it not to have any effect at all.


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## Mongo (May 9, 2008)

Unfortunately, I think it will be difficult for the double breasted suit to regain much traction. When I wear a double breasted suit, for example, the enhanced formality seems to require the full rig, without cutting corners: i.e. - french cuffs, pocket square, upscale tie, and dressy balmorals. 

The general trend, however, is away from formality (whatever we may think of said trend), making the double breasted suit that much more difficult to wear appropriately on other than more formal occasions. At least, difficult without being overdressed for the occasion.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

My impression is that double-breasted jackets (either as part of a suit or a sport coat) have been fairly rare - though existent - for quite awhile. I don't know ... the mix of double- to single-breasted is probably something like 10%/90%? I suspect you'd have to go back to the '40s or so before they were at all common (I'm going on movies and vague impressions of photos here ... I'm not old enough to know first-hand). They may have gone up and down from year-to-year, but it's kind of hard to judge, as just working with two people who happen to favor them would give you an unreliable impression that they were on the upswing.

As already mentioned, the general decline in wearing _any_ jacket probably makes them less common, in terms of absolute number, as time goes on. I'm not sure what effect that might have on their rate of occurrence, relative to single-breasted.


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## FrontHeadlock (Dec 1, 2009)

Mongo said:


> Unfortunately, I think it will be difficult for the double breasted suit to regain much traction. When I wear a double breasted suit, for example, the enhanced formality seems to require the full rig, without cutting corners: i.e. - french cuffs, pocket square, upscale tie, and dressy balmorals.
> 
> The general trend, however, is away from formality (whatever we may think of said trend), making the double breasted suit that much more difficult to wear appropriately on other than more formal occasions. At least, difficult without being overdressed for the occasion.


This is a good point.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

I don't care. I've worn DB suits all my adult life, almost all my suits are still DB, and I will continue to dress thus whether they come in or go out of fashion.


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm particularly sensitive to the issue because I've always loved DB and my wife is as concerned about what's in fashion as she is about what I like. She's not complained about DB for the last 2 or 3 years because there have been more DB suits and jackets in stock, in ads and in catalogs each year. Of course, they're not now and never will be very common because they simply don't look very good on the scrawny or the portly, and that covers 90% of the population - they seem to exaggerate both extremes of habitus. As I'm a 42L with a 34 waist, the right amount of waist suppression for me seems just right on a DB jacket.

I just got a new DB suit in tan because my prior tan work suit was wearing out after about 10 years - and my wife loves the new one, which is amusing because when I got the last one, she wouldn't even let me consider it. While I have no compunction about wearing things she doesn't like, I have several DB items, my jacket comes off at work in favor of a white coat, and the last suit was a good OTR piece on sale at a great price at Bloomingdales - it just wasn't worth aggravating her and having to find DB (which wasn't easy at the turn of the century).

I don't think DB is any more formal than SB, Mongo. In fact, I think a pocket silk is less dramatic and formal with DB because it's less of a focal point. And Charlie Watts might look better in that picture if his lapels weren't 8' wide, Cruiser - that jacket is a bit too dramatic to look good on anyone but Al Capone, tie or no tie.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

bluesman said:


> And Charlie Watts might look better in that picture if his lapels weren't 8' wide, Cruiser - that jacket is a bit too dramatic to look good on anyone but Al Capone, tie or no tie.


Charlies Watts needs a shirt with more contrast, like a white shirt. I don't see a problem with the suit. Double-breasted suits need a wider lapel.


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## jean-paul sartorial (Jul 28, 2010)

I think the problem with Charlie Watts is he's a pretty skinny guy so there's an awful lot of excess fabric going on there. Jacket itself is okay, but not on him.

As for DB suits in general, my opinion is that there are certain body-types and personalities that look good in DB suits always will. As long as suits are worn, they can wear them, in-style or not. And then there is another set of people who don't look good in DB suits and never will.*

The only difference between DB suits being in style or out is the number of people who belong to the latter group and mistake themselves as belonging in the former. Unfortunately, in my younger days I was one such casualty.



*And I suppose there are always a fortunate few who can look equally good either way. I hate those guys.


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## HalfLegend (Aug 1, 2010)

I haven't noticed them much around the workplace but they do seem to be making a comeback on TV at least. I've noticed many news anchors and TV show characters alike wearing them.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

It comes in and out of fashion just like anything else. They were somewhat popular in the '80s and early '90s, I think because of the Miami Vice influence.

The only double breasted I own. Watch me get railed a thousand times about how the 6x1 is "too '80s"... :icon_smile_big:


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

*It would be just my luck that double-breasted suits and tab collar shirts would be going out of fashion . . .*

. . . as I had a double-breasted suit and several tab or eyelet collared shirts made for me this spring.

For myself, I now own only three double-breasted suits, down from five or six several years ago. The silhouette for late-model D/B suits is with a narrower set to the shoulders, eschewing the "gangster" look of the 1930's and 1940's. (Several of the D/B suits which I donated to charity were Polo Ralph Lauren from the 90's, and the shoulder padding was enormous - better for me when I was fatter, but not as necessary now, thankfully.)

Happily, I am of such a temperament that I can wear overly formal clothes with some small amount of authority - being a starchy New England WASP does come with a few advantages :icon_smile_wink:.


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## goodall (Aug 31, 2008)

Double breasted suits are classic in my opinion. They might be more popular at some times than others but they are never out of "style". It is simply a different look than a single breasted suit and to my mind dressier. I have a Coppley MTM DB with a trimmer silouette and I get a lot of compliments on it. But even if I didn't, I agree with Stephen RG; I don't really care. I have always liked them. To each his own.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I always get compliments on my double breasted suits. But as a young man, wearing them in a business setting probably wouldn't go over too well.


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## BarringtonAyre (Nov 9, 2008)

I think it is quite a personal matter, and you should always wear what you are most comfortable in.

We have noticed a slight resurgence in DB suits from some of our customers but they are usually from the Armed Forces or from a long established City firm and I think this is just what they have been brought up on.

However what we have seen a lot recently is the SB suit with DB lapels. They actually look really rather good if you are tall with broad shoulders and small waist.

Just another little though for everyone......


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## donk93953 (Feb 8, 2007)

I've never been without several DB suits in my armoire.
WW Chan is making me one ( I hope!) as I type. Dark gray, off-white, light chalk mark.
I wear them all the time and receive nothing, but compliments.


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## Luis-F-S (Apr 6, 2009)

I have a double breasted dinner jacket and a charcoal grey DB suit, both of which I enjoy.

L


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## London380sl (Apr 17, 2009)

goodall said:


> Double breasted suits are classic in my opinion. They might be more popular at some times than others but they are never out of "style". It is simply a different look than a single breasted suit and to my mind dressier.


I hope you're right as I have a closet 1/2 full with double breasted. I hate to say this, as it shows my age, but I've found that double breasted popularity is a reflection of economic times. When times are tough, as they are now, their popularity rises and when times are good they dwindle. 
.
If you got the right body - triangular -broad shoulders and narrow waist they look great. If you're sorta square they don't work as well.


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

I don't know about the rise and fall of double-breasted suits in line with the economy, but the observation about body shape is quite spot-on. For better or worse, I've always had a relatively large chest, and not too much of a paunch, which has made double-breasted suits a good choice for me (even being only 5' 10"), but a friend, to whom I once gave one of my old D/B suit, taller and thinner than I, but with a thin chest and a paunch, the suit never looked right on him.



London380sl said:


> I hope you're right as I have a closet 1/2 full with double breasted. I hate to say this, as it shows my age, but I've found that double breasted popularity is a reflection of economic times. When times are tough, as they are now, their popularity rises and when times are good they dwindle.
> .
> If you got the right body - triangular -broad shoulders and narrow waist they look great. If you're sorta square they don't work as well.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

London380sl said:


> I hope you're right as I have a closet 1/2 full with double breasted. *I hate to say this, as it shows my age, but I've found that double breasted popularity is a reflection of economic times. When times are tough, as they are now, their popularity rises and when times are good they dwindle.*
> .
> If you got the right body - triangular -broad shoulders and narrow waist they look great. If you're sorta square they don't work as well.


I take it that this applies to vested suits just as much as it applies to double breasted suits.


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## jacnyr (Apr 29, 2010)

They will not be considered back in to me when a person has more DB's in their closet then single breasted suits. I see someone buying maybe one at most just to mix things up.
DB suits only look good when they are buttoned up. It looks tacky when left unbuttoned.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm curious if anyone here considers me to have the right body type for a DB. Fire away, it won't hurt my feelings. I'll probably wear it anyways.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

It was said in 2001: Space Odyssey that (probably in 2001) nobody on Earth wears single breasted suits. 

Personally I like double breasted jackets, not very much in dinner jackets, but in suits by all means!


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Jovan said:


> I'm curious if anyone here considers me to have the right body type for a DB. Fire away, it won't hurt my feelings. I'll probably wear it anyways.


My previously stated view is that almost anyone can wear a DB jacket, but the fit is much more critical than with a SB. I imagine that having a well-fitted jacket will not be a problem for you


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Was in local BB, saw DB suit coat on a manequin buttoned female style (R over L), salesman notice my attention and said "They're not coming back in style"

Firstly, he didn't notice the mis-buttoning, and secondly, why would a Brooks salesman _assume_ a Brooks customer would care what was "in" or "out"?

Lo, how the mighty have fallen


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## donk93953 (Feb 8, 2007)

I stopped shopping at BB awhile ago...for exactly the same reason...the sales staff has no idea what is going on...GE credit treats everyone as a number...and, oh yes, we are all Qing up for Black Fleece...what the hell is that!?!
OK...now back to the discussion about DB...


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Gentlemen,

I wear db jackets of various kinds often. I always am looking for more... and I have a db suit which I fully intend to wear to serious business meetings. I enjoy them, and they suit my general tendency to never remove my jacket. They are well received by others and well-regarded. I have from time to time met other gentlemen who only wear db suits and always have. I don't care much about whether some trend is more popular at any given time. Menswear tends to remain much less subject to the whims of the moment than women's clothing, but even with women, there are classic items that demonstrate stability year after year...

Why would I worry about such a thing? I dress for my own pleasure and enjoyment first. It is pleasant that others also enjoy seeing a well-dressed gentleman and appreciate the outfit, but it is just a bonus that brightens my day...

regards,

riudy


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## sleats (Oct 27, 2008)

My favorite DB which I only really ever wear smart-casual, rather than as a suit.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Still out, and unlikely to come back anytime soon...unless of course the burgeoning European '80s trend kicks off big time, then we'll see pastel DBs all over the place...again...AAAAGGGGHHHH!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

StephenRG said:


> My previously stated view is that almost anyone can wear a DB jacket, but the fit is much more critical than with a SB. I imagine that having a well-fitted jacket will not be a problem for you


Come on, you're being too nice. I asked you to fire away!



phyrpowr said:


> Was in local BB, saw DB suit coat on a manequin buttoned female style (R over L), salesman notice my attention and said "They're not coming back in style"
> 
> Firstly, he didn't notice the mis-buttoning, and secondly, why would a Brooks salesman _assume_ a Brooks customer would care what was "in" or "out"?
> 
> Lo, how the mighty have fallen


It might have been a female associate who did the buttoning. I see it a lot with vintage suit listings on eBay which are done by women half the time. DB coats _used_ to be able to fasten either way, so I'm not sure how they managed that with a modern one. IIRC, it was a vestigial thing from its pea coat origins. However, Sator would be able to say for sure.

DBs are discouraged for young people now for some reason. He probably assumed you wanted to look current. Did you bring the problem to his attention?



donk93953 said:


> I stopped shopping at BB awhile ago...for exactly the same reason...the sales staff has no idea what is going on...GE credit treats everyone as a number...and, oh yes, we are all Qing up for Black Fleece...what the hell is that!?!
> OK...now back to the discussion about DB...


... huh?


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Come on, you're being too nice. I asked you to fire away!
> 
> It might have been a female associate who did the buttoning. I see it a lot with vintage suit listings on eBay which are done by women half the time. DB coats _used_ to be able to fasten either way, so I'm not sure how they managed that with a modern one. IIRC, it was a vestigial thing from its pea coat origins. However, Sator would be able to say for sure.
> 
> ...


Jovan, they did have women associates, but that was a man's coat, and I pointed it out to a blank look. I'm 60 and pretty much look it


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Ah, I see. Personally I wouldn't have said that even to a man my age. Then again, I don't work in clothing retail anymore. Ironically, the last place I worked at was quite trendy and I knew far less than I do now.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

I have a Navy Blue 6X2 (Gold Buttons) Blazer and a Charcoal Gray 6X2 suit from BB that I rarely wear but never thought they were out of style. I always thought they weren't best suited for people on the slim/skinny side of the weight spectrum because of the extra material.


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## Saddleback Leather (Aug 3, 2010)

I have to admit I think they look pretty sharp in the men's magazines I've seen. However what looks decent in GQ doesn't always translate at well in the real world.


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

The photos I posted today of myself in the WAYWT thread are of me wearing a double-breasted suit, and I think it looks rather well, and I am certainly not a GQ model - bald, bespectacled, middle-aged, and slightly lumpy in the center - I think that I qualify for "real world" . . .


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

In this postmodern world I don't think much is "in" or "out". They will always be liked by designers because of there complexity, that said I don't think they will supplant SBs in popularity with the masses anytime soon. A well put together DB is a great item but then so is a well put together pair of jeans.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

sleats said:


> My favorite DB which I only really ever wear smart-casual, rather than as a suit.


Beautiful jacket. Really beautiful. The effect is shattered by the shabby lower half. Too much of a contrast in my mind.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Gents,

I noticed the comments made about the gentleman in the light blue DB that had it open. Some people mentioned that a tie is a requirement but for someone like me who frequently wears SB suits without ties to the office, what would you think of something like that with the DB but buttoned?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Asterix said:


> I have a Navy Blue 6X2 (Gold Buttons) Blazer and a Charcoal Gray 6X2 suit from BB that I rarely wear but never thought they were out of style. I always thought they weren't best suited for people on the slim/skinny side of the weight spectrum because of the extra material.


 Many would argue the opposite because it bulks them up visually and makes them look not so skinny. As has been said before, good fit is key.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

I have a DB suit from BB and a slight gut at age 47. I wore it to a wedding recently and I think it looked great and was a standout in a sea of SB's. I could see having 30% of the rotation in DB suits for social occasions. If a suit was a work requirement I think the percentage would be dictated by the job. BB is selling jeans now and raggy looking back-to-school kids clothes as well as a lot more casual wear. I just hope they know when to stop the dilution before they become another store front in a mall.

..and yes I find black fleece to generally be equal parts mystery and mockery.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Asterix said:


> Gents,
> 
> I noticed the comments made about the gentleman in the light blue DB that had it open. Some people mentioned that a tie is a requirement but for someone like me who frequently wears SB suits without ties to the office, what would you think of something like that with the DB but buttoned?


PLEASE don't wear ANY suit without a tie!


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

I own 3 DB suits, one DB blazer and a DB dinner jacket. Love them all.


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## WillisGeigerFan (Apr 24, 2007)

Just got Barneys Fall/Winter Men's mailer and there's a generous supply of DB jackets in there - more as a percentage than I can ever recall. I only have one DB jacket and it's vintage mid-60s with narrower lapels and only four buttons. It seems from the Barneys mailer that narrow lapel is the trend with today's DB, too, albeit 6 button,.


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## CRMW (Nov 7, 2009)

I only own 1 DB suit and reserve it for non-business wear. I'm thinking about pulling it out of the back of the closet and putting it in the work rotation as it is a nice suit.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Jovan said:


> Many would argue the opposite because it bulks them up visually and makes them look not so skinny. As has been said before, good fit is key.


 Thanks for the response Jovan.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

williamson said:


> PLEASE don't wear ANY suit without a tie!


 lol...... too late as I do it very often with my SB suits to the office so the style police would have to arrest me for this crime.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

I've been reading some 1920s and '30s histories and biogs lately, pix of lots of men of various builds in DBs, and I think it looks pretty good on everyone, if even decently tailored.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Asterix said:


> lol...... too late as I do it very often with my SB suits to the office so the style police would have to arrest me for this crime.


Can you not, will you not, see the sheer incongruity of suit-without-tie? 
Mixed message, mixed metaphor, mixed modes...


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I'm wearing one today. I scooped up a bunch at a thrift shop a while back and just recently got around to alterations. A nice change of pace.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

williamson said:


> Can you not, will you not, see the sheer incongruity of suit-without-tie?
> Mixed message, mixed metaphor, mixed modes...


lol............ What is incongruous about not toeing the line every time?


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## VA540 (Dec 15, 2009)

williamson said:


> PLEASE don't wear ANY suit without a tie!


I think its perfectly acceptable. The Duke of Windsor had very few sport jackets and blazers, most of his wardrobe was suits and he didnt always wear a tie. The major caveat is that, in order to prevent yourself from appearing like you forgot your tie, ALWAYS include a pocket square, it instantly elevates your taste and sophistication.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

VA540 said:


> The major caveat is that, in order to prevent yourself from appearing like you forgot your tie, ALWAYS include a pocket square, it instantly elevates your taste and sophistication.


A thousand times NO! This compounds the incongruity. Suit = formal; pocket square = even more formal; open-necked shirt = casual. (At any rate, this is how such things are seen on this side of the Atlantic, where pocket squares are much rarer than on your side and more often reserved for special occasions.)


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## CRMW (Nov 7, 2009)

I don't know if I am just noticing it now or trends in Calgary are changing, however, it seems that the number of people wearing a suit without a tie is increasing. A look around the food court in of of our higher prices buildings yesterday revealed about a 50/50 split.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

williamson said:


> A thousand times NO! This compounds the incongruity. Suit = formal; pocket square = even more formal; open-necked shirt = casual. (At any rate, this is how such things are seen on this side of the Atlantic, where pocket squares are much rarer than on your side and more often reserved for special occasions.)


A DB suit may require a tie (I take no position no that), and a business SB suit does require one (seems to me, virtually by definition), but it's not true that suit = formal so that ANY suit requires a tie. There are informal/casual suits, even if they're not the first thing that the word "suit" calls to mind. I think that's the point of VA540's reference to the Duke of Windsor.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Kurt N said:


> ...it's not true that suit = formal so that ANY suit requires a tie. There are informal/casual suits, even if they're not the first thing that the word "suit" calls to mind.


The only kind of informal suit that springs to my mind is the tweed suit, and I think that a roll-necked jumper (USA: turtle-neck sweater) would work with one of these. That apart, I maintain that a suit calls for a tie.


CRMW said:


> I don't know if I am just noticing it now or trends in Calgary are changing, however, it seems that the number of people wearing a suit without a tie is increasing.


I suspect that this is true in the UK as well, but that does not make the practice right!
Why do you North Americans hate the tie so much?


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

VA540 said:


> I think its perfectly acceptable. The Duke of Windsor had very few sport jackets and blazers, most of his wardrobe was suits and he didnt always wear a tie. The major caveat is that, in order to prevent yourself from appearing like you forgot your tie, ALWAYS include a pocket square, it instantly elevates your taste and sophistication.


 Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks the same. This morning what I'm wearing to my office is a Navy blue BB suit, a pair of #8 Cordovan Balmoral, a Coach Cordovan colored belt, a Pink colored BB shirt OCBD, and a multicolored BB Pocket square that has some pink in it. Now if that is sacrilegious to the style purists, then they should come and arrest me.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Asterix said:


> ...This morning what I'm wearing to my office is a Navy blue BB suit, a pair of #8 Cordovan Balmoral, a Coach Cordovan colored belt, a Pink colored BB shirt OCBD, and a multicolored BB Pocket square that has some pink in it.


The colour-scheme sounts fine - but why, why, why no tie?


> Now if that is sacrilegious to the style purists, then they should come and arrest me.


 I don't find it sacrilegious - I find it nonsensical - sloppy and unfinished.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

williamson said:


> The colour-scheme sounts fine - but why, why, why no tie?


Because after years of being in corporate America wearing ties all day, I decided the day I started my own firm that I will no longer wear ties except for business meetings with clients.



williamson said:


> I don't find it sacrilegious - I find it nonsensical - sloppy and unfinished.


I candidly respect your opinion but as we all know opinions are like butt holes, we all have one.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

williamson said:


> A thousand times NO! This compounds the incongruity. Suit = formal; pocket square = even more formal; open-necked shirt = casual. (At any rate, this is how such things are seen on this side of the Atlantic, where pocket squares are much rarer than on your side and more often reserved for special occasions.)


There's nothing formal about a pocket square. It doesn't alter formality one bit. I always wear a pocket square in a sport coat if I'm wearing it with or without a tie. I also always wear one with a suit, and then I'm also wearing a tie.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

^ By way of illustration: on the BBC series _All Creatures Great and Small_, Siegfried Farnon is a very dashing dresser and thus can occasionally be seen wearing a silk pocket square while, e.g., inserting a rectal thermometer into a horse. I don't think this counts as a "special occasion."


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

That depends on whether you're Siegfried Farnon or the horse.



Kurt N said:


> ^ By way of illustration: on the BBC series _All Creatures Great and Small_, Siegfried Farnon is a very dashing dresser and thus can occasionally be seen wearing a silk pocket square while, e.g., inserting a rectal thermometer into a horse. I don't think this counts as a "special occasion."


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

^ LOL! Well played!


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Matt S said:


> There's nothing formal about a pocket square. It doesn't alter formality one bit. I always wear a pocket square in a sport coat if I'm wearing it with or without a tie. I also always wear one with a suit, and then I'm also wearing a tie.


I disagree with you here - to me a pocket square "ups" the formality considerably. The last line of my posting (which you quoted) explains this. It's adding a jacket to an open-necked ensemble that doesn't alter the formality.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Asterix said:


> Because after years of being in corporate America wearing ties all day, I decided the day I started my own firm that I will no longer wear ties except for business meetings with clients.


Surely the way to go towards informality is to wear sports jacket but with a tie? This has been perfectly acceptable professional wear for fifty years or more.


> I candidly respect your opinion but as we all know opinions are like butt holes, we all have one.


 Very unpleasantly put!


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

williamson said:


> A thousand times NO! This compounds the incongruity. Suit = formal; pocket square = even more formal; open-necked shirt = casual. (At any rate, this is how such things are seen on this side of the Atlantic, where pocket squares are much rarer than on your side and more often reserved for special occasions.)


While I can't speak for how things are done in Europe, on this side of the pond pocket squares are worn with everything from uber casual club wear to black tie, and just about everything in between. I'm not big on pocket squares myself; however, I find that I wear them more when I'm not wearing a tie than when I am. Some examples of other folks that I ran across.


























Cruiser


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> While I can't speak for how things are done in Europe, on this side of the pond pocket squares are worn with everything from uber casual club wear to black tie, and just about everything in between. I'm not big on pocket squares myself; however, I find that I wear them more when I'm not wearing a tie than when I am.
> Cruiser


That is a difference of opinion courteously expressed.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

A few thought-lets:

- A business suit without a tie looks weird to me, in a way that a sportcoat without a tie does not.

- Most of the time when people, at least in this forum, mention a "suit," we can assume they mean a business suit. Of course, there are other kinds of suits, which may be fine without a tie. By way of example: leisure suits (which you should never wear with a tie and - while you're at it - should never wear at all), speed suits (obscure ski racing reference to most people) and pants suits (true, generally not worn by men at all, aside from Eddie Izzard, who can make the excuse that he's British).

- I don't know that a pocket square necessarily makes a look more formal. This taps into a general problem with a lot of clothes discussions on this board, which is a tendency (not universal) to compress all distinctions into degrees of formality. There are multiple dimensions to clothes (and manners, behavior, dance moves) other than formality, and some other one is at play here. I think the dimension you go "up" with a pocket square, if not quite orthagonal to the dimension that ties lie along, is certainly not aligned.

- On the other hand, at least in the US, an open-necked shirt with a respectable sportcoat is certainly more formal than an open-necked shirt all by itself. Warmer, as well.

- Also, of course, in the US: a sportcoat and a tie has not been accepted as professional wear for anything remotely close to 50 years, though it depends on the profession (doctors get away with all kinds of things including spooky white lab coats). You'd get taken aside and sent home if you showed up in a sportcoat in the office I worked at in the '80s and early '90s.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Starch said:


> - I don't know that a pocket square necessarily makes a look more formal. This taps into a general problem with a lot of clothes discussions on this board, which is a tendency (not universal) to compress all distinctions into degrees of formality. There are multiple dimensions to clothes (and manners, behavior, dance moves) other than formality, and some other one is at play here. I think the dimension you go "up" with a pocket square, if not quite orthagonal to the dimension that ties lie along, is certainly not aligned.


Without expressing an opinion on any other points in your post, this one is both correct and insightful. There are many axies/continuums in dressing and style. Formality/informality is one, but decoration/simplicity is another, dandification/inconspicuity is another, high-quality/low-quality, etc. If they are conflated, people start coming to weird conclusions. A simplicity/formality conflation is particularly common, leading to the mistaken notion that wholecuts are dressier than captoes; it is also transparently false, as demonstrated by the fact that casual trousers have no seam decoration, while semi-formal trousers have one stripe, and formal trousers have two.

Anyway, great point, Starch.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

I appreciate the whole of your thoughtful posting, and comment on parts of it.


Starch said:


> On the other hand, at least in the US, an open-necked shirt with a respectable sportcoat is certainly more formal than an open-necked shirt all by itself.


 I cannot make a blanket generalisation for UK opinion, but putting on a jacket in Britain would have a practical function (for warmth, as you state), not a stylistic one. It is the tie that increases the formality rather than the jacket. Americans seem to be far more reluctant to dispense with the jacket than Britons are - a practice possibly related to the far wider incidence of air-conditioning.


> ...in the US: a sportcoat and a tie has not been accepted as professional wear for anything remotely close to 50 years, though it depends on the profession.


This is a real difference between our countries - sports jacket with tie has been perfectly acceptable professional wear, particularly outside London, since the 2nd world war. Such was my daily wear throughout my teaching career (only very senior male staff - often only the principal - wore suits) and as you indicate, doctors often dressed similarly. Certainly, businessmen and lawyers would have worn suits, but it would be a very stuffy and reactionary office indeed where someone wearing sports jacket and tie would have been sent home. I think that there was a certain polarisation in the 1980s - the sports jacket almost became an endangered species, squeezed between suits and more casual wear, I can see that it may even have been "saved" by the tieless look. But I don't think I shall ever like the look of any jacket with lapels - sports jacket, blazer or suit - with an open-necked shirt, and reserve the right to complain about it!


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

(refering to the pictures of the guy wearing a blue denim DB suit and shirt with the jacket unbuttoned and hanging open as an example of a DB suit not working sans tie). 
That wouldn't look good even with a tie.

The excess materal just doesn't work.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

williamson said:


> Surely the way to go towards informality is to wear sports jacket but with a tie? This has been perfectly acceptable professional wear for fifty years or more.
> Very unpleasantly put!


................... and somehow you assume that describing a person's choice of dress mode (just because it doesn't conform to your idea of the "standard") as being nonsensical is pleasant?


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

williamson said:


> I disagree with you here - to me a pocket square "ups" the formality considerably. The last line of my posting (which you quoted) explains this. It's adding a jacket to an open-necked ensemble that doesn't alter the formality.


A pocket square ups the dandification effect, and therefore lowers the level of formality. Do not confuse dandification with formality.


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## Luftvier (Feb 7, 2010)

This thread floors me.

Most of us here are de facto _not_ "in style" simply by our choice in clothing.

To properly ascertain whether DBs are in style requires that suits themselves are in style. Which they aren't, much to our chagrin.

FWIW, I see DB suits everywhere in the courthouse. Some guys guy never updated their suiting wardrobe after '89. Other men like the look.

Sack suits also aren't _in_, but I like them, they look good, and I am going to keep wearing them irrespective of what is arbitrarily determined to be in style. At least I won't look back at myself in 20 years and laugh at my silly Affliction and Ed Hardy outfits.


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## Luftvier (Feb 7, 2010)

Bog said:


> A pocket square ups the dandification effect, and therefore lowers the level of formality. Do not confuse dandification with formality.


Wait, what?

A ps can do either, depending on its material, fold, color, and pattern. A white linen TV fold enhances formality; a floral patterned square in bright colors decreases formality.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Luftvier said:


> This thread floors me.
> 
> Most of us here are de facto _not_ "in style" simply by our choice in clothing.
> 
> ...


 :icon_hailthee: Outstanding and very accurate response to the OP! :icon_hailthee:


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Asterix said:


> ...and somehow you assume that describing a person's choice of dress mode (just because it doesn't conform to your idea of the "standard") as being nonsensical is pleasant?


Your inclusion of a smile indicates to me that you intend your comment to be taken as peaceable rather than as aggressive; I take it that way and apologise for any offence.
It did seem to me that, in the comment of yours to which I took exception, you were implying that opinions are just that - nothing more. But for many decades the established opinion has been that suits don't go with open-necked shirts, and I cannot believe that the times in which we live are so distinctive, and/or that we are such busy or important people, that we can't be expected to do what others do, or what our predecessors did. I realise that absolute aesthetic standards are difficult to establish philosophically, but still think they exist.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Luftvier said:


> Wait, what? A ps can do either, depending on its material, fold, color, and pattern. A white linen TV fold enhances formality; a floral patterned square in bright colors decreases formality.


This makes good sense to me - in practice, the former type is far more frequently seen in the UK than the latter, hence my claim that pocket squares increase formality - perhaps I should qualify that by saying "usually in my experience".


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Personally I don't dig the business suit-sans-tie look anymore (I even tried it a couple years ago and got shouted down by the forumites). However, certain suits can "get away" with it more than others. For instance, a more casual fabric such as linen or tweed. A worsted three piece or double breasted is just going too far though.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Personally I don't dig the business suit-sans-tie look anymore (I even tried it a couple years ago and got shouted down by the forumites). However, certain suits can "get away" with it more than others. For instance, a more casual fabric such as linen or tweed. A worsted three piece or double breasted is just going too far though.


That's my take, too. Worsted, to me, says "city suit on business", and that means black shoes and a tie.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Jovan said:


> I'm curious if anyone here considers me to have the right body type for a DB. Fire away, it won't hurt my feelings. I'll probably wear it anyways.


I'm been re-hemming the trousers on a thrifted DB suit, and it occurs to me that the previous owner may have gotten rid of it, after virtually no wear, because...he had short legs. What I mean is that with the extra bulk and detailing of a DB, and the straight-across hem, it's key to have enough leg length so one doesn't don't look stumpy-legged/top-heavy. This would be true regardless of whether you're heavy or thin.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Kurt, I'm afraid that's true. I like the way DB's look, and I have a couple (including one made for me), but neither are very flattering when I'm standing, because the lack of any open-ness at the front of the jacket makes my already stumpy legs look positiven dwarven. My wife hates my DB's for this reason, though she concedes they look good when I am sitting or when I have a head-and-shoulder photo taken.


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## VA540 (Dec 15, 2009)

Bog said:


> A pocket square ups the dandification effect, and therefore lowers the level of formality. Do not confuse dandification with formality.


Perfectly explained. When I go to something more formal or more professional, I always wear a folded cotton hankerchief rather than silk pocket square.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Bog said:


> A pocket square ups the dandification effect, and therefore lowers the level of formality. Do not confuse dandification with formality.


Half-right. Dandification and formality are two different axes. *The opposite of dandification is not formality. *The opposite of dandified is inconspicuous. The opposite of formality is informality/casualness. Confusing dandification with casualness is just as wrong as confusing it with formality.


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## gordgekko (Nov 12, 2004)

Cruiser said:


> Cruiser


Peter O'Toole looks good in anything. It has something to do with that dissolute style he has.

That said, if you want to bring DB suits back into fashion, just put them on Justin Timberlake or someone of his peers. It will at least guarantee you two or three years of them.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

FWIW it would appear that DB blazers are decidedly out - so out that they're not even to be found at the usual C21/Syms/NordRack...


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## ykurtz (Mar 7, 2007)

StephenRG said:


> FWIW it would appear that DB blazers are decidedly out - so out that they're not even to be found at the usual C21/Syms/NordRack...


I like the fact that DBs are not prevalent. Definitely stands out. All my suits are single breasted, but my blazers/odd jackets are 50/50 SB and DB. I think DBs look especially good for broad shouldered, slim waisted men.


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

Almost, but not quite. There was a rack of Burberry (well, sort of Burberry - manufactured in Italy, and cut very small) blazers at the new Syms/Filene's basement at 79th and Broadway, and there were a few DB blazers in the group (not that they were flattering-looking on, mind you, but they were there).



StephenRG said:


> FWIW it would appear that DB blazers are decidedly out - so out that they're not even to be found at the usual C21/Syms/NordRack...


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

My only DB is my dinner jacket - its one of the few tasteful ways to stand out a little bit in black tie.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Just by wearing peak/shawl or just following the Black Tie Guide one would stand out in a tasteful way!


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## Pugin (May 15, 2010)

I'd be interested to hear more young guys weigh in on whether or not they think DB jackets work for them.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Same here. At one point it _wasn't_ an issue, but as so many here are quick to remind my idealistic and young mind -- "THAT WAS BACK THEN, THIS IS NOW." I think a classically cut DB flatters a lanky young guy much better than too-tight suits with 1" lapels, but hey, what do I know about fashion? :rolleyes2:


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

StephenRG said:


> FWIW it would appear that DB blazers are decidedly out - so out that they're not even to be found at the usual C21/Syms/NordRack...


Maybe they're out at the moment but on the way back in? Michael Bastian has lately been trotting out a couple DB designs each season, and today there's this blog entry on Patrick Grant:

https://sartoriallyinclined.blogspot.com/

Says DB sport coats are having "a serious moment." Not making any judgment about how much we should care what the designers are up to; just speaking to the factual question of what's "in."


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

I received an E-mail advertisement yesterday from Ede & Ravenscroft in the UK, and the featured suit was a solid navy six-button double-breasted suit with flat-front trousers, worn by a tall lanky male model type - at least SOMEONE believes that tall thin people can wear double-breasted jackets. (Note that the set of the shoulders was narrower and less "bulked up" than the double-breasted suits of the 80's and 90's.)


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## coltboy75 (Nov 11, 2009)

I think the DB suit is timeless. I love wearing the two I have.


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