# It's ok to be a boorish, insensitive racist....



## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

.....as long as you have a (D) after your name:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

This is the kind of thing that should not be considered boorish or insensitive at least in certain contexts. I have A-A friends who kid with me about this. But you are right about the double-standard. An (R) could not get away with this.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Sorry, what context is that? When it is uttered by a Democrat? 

Do "colored people" hold to a different time standard from others? Does time tick slowly for them.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> Sorry, what context is that? When it is uttered by a Democrat?
> 
> Do "colored people" hold to a different time standard from others? Does time tick slowly for them.


I have many A-A friends, including one very close friend. They kid each other, and me, about the A-A propensity to run late for everything, citing "CPT." There is no more animus or bigotry embedded in these conversations than in those that might refer to Italians talking with their hands, etc., but we live in a PC culture that demands a stultifying sociological homogenization while it glorifies a sentimental diversity.

Lawyers have actually been reprimanded for referring to the need for a "Chinese Wall." It's nuts and getting nuttier.

As for "[W]hen uttered by a Democrat, I think my post addressed that.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Except that it was uttered by two lily white politicians who think that they can take liberty with such statements because they are of the correct political stripe. 

That you have African-American friends who kid one another is one thing. When it's someone from outside the culture doing it it's another. 

It's racist, pure and simple. It has nothing to do with PC. They made reference to an entire race of people keeping time differently.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> Except that it was uttered by two lily white politicians who think that they can take liberty with such statements because they are of the correct political stripe.
> 
> That you have African-American friends who kid one another is one thing. When it's someone from outside the culture doing it it's another.
> 
> It's racist, pure and simple. It has nothing to do with PC. They made reference to an entire race of people keeping time differently.


Agree about the double-standard.
Not necessarily, because such simplistic double-standards don't relate to the true human condition.
It is this kind of simplistic Manichean thinking that drives the PC world.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ I would argue that there is a fine line between PC and truly insensitive and racist humor. 

PC is banning Taco Tuesday. Insensitive is to say "sorry for being late with the taco, but you know how lazy and slow Mexicans are".


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> ^ I would argue that there is a fine line between PC and truly insensitive and racist humor.
> 
> PC is banning Taco Tuesday. Insensitive is to say "sorry for being late with the taco, but you know how lazy and slow Mexicans are".


I agree that there is a line, but my point is that references to CPT are not always on the wrong side of that line even when uttered by a "lily white" person. Like many things, it depends. I'm not sure about the context of the video -- I'd probably have to be there -- but there is no question that if an (R) had uttered the same words in the same context, it would be the lede on CNN.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ On that you and I agree! If it was a Republican, it would have been the second coming of George Wallace.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> ^ On that you and I agree! If it was a Republican, it would have been the second coming of George Wallace.


Yep. The speaker's political career would likely be toast.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I am not one who subscribes to or endorses comments/phrases/language that truly insults or simply hurts peoples feelings, but must ask....what in the hell happened to free speech? OK, the mayor said it, the candidate excused it...if you don't like it, that's your privilege. You don't have to squander your vote on either one. I certainly don't intend to do so! :crazy:


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> ^ I would argue that there is a fine line between PC and truly insensitive and racist humor.
> 
> *PC is banning Taco Tuesday*. Insensitive is to say "sorry for being late with the taco, but you know how lazy and slow Mexicans are".


Don't &^%$ with my Taco Tuesday! It's one of the few things I look forward to every week. lol


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> I am not one who subscribes to or endorses comments/phrases/language that truly insults or simply hurts peoples feelings, but must ask....what in the hell happened to free speech? OK, the mayor said it, the candidate excused it...if you don't like it, that's your privilege. You don't have to squander your vote on either one. I certainly don't intend to do so! :crazy:


Well, wait a minute. Free speech simply means that the government cannot punish one from speaking his mind, even if feelings get hurt. Certainly, private citizens and institutions are free to reprimand or even punish those whose speech they believe is wrong or hurtful.

That said, the willingness to claim hurt or accuse ill-behavior anytime someone speaks in an area that involves race, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc., has stymied both reasoned discourse as well as good humor, both of which are necessary for a well-grounded civilization.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Mike Petrik said:


> Well, wait a minute. Free speech simply means that the government cannot punish one from speaking his mind, even if feelings get hurt. Certainly, private citizens and institutions are free to reprimand or even punish those whose speech they believe is wrong or hurtful. That said, the willingness to claim hurt or accuse ill-behavior anytime someone speaks in an area that involves race, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc., has stymied both reasoned discourse as well as good humor, both of which are necessary for a well-grounded civilization.


To speak on topics of race, such as saying that minority communities must do a better job of policing themselves and that black children raised by a single parent are more prone to commit crime, and then being labeled a racist is PC.

To suggest that the passage of time is perceived by certain people a certain way by virtue of skin color is racist.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

The perception of time's arrow is a conceit of consciousness not a physical law. Differing cultures differ. Australian aboriginals and native Americans reportedly did not acknowledge a similar expression of the 'now' as is described by our euro centric ideal. Try not to be prejudiced 



SG_67 said:


> To speak on topics of race, such as saying that minority communities must do a better job of policing themselves and that black children raised by a single parent are more prone to commit crime, and then being labeled a racist is PC.
> 
> To suggest that the passage of time is perceived by certain people a certain way by virtue of skin color is racist.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Shaver said:


> The perception of time's arrow is a conceit of consciousness not a physical law. Differing cultures differ. Australian aboriginals and native Americans reportedly did not acknowledge a similar expression of the 'now' as is described by our euro centric ideal. Try not to be prejudiced


Exactly, Shaver. Race and culture are distinct. 
Moreover, African-Americans kidding about CPT is no different than we Czech-Americans kidding about our sometimes excessive (by US standards to Shaver's point) frugality. When non-Czech-Americans kid us about that characteristic it is typically in friendly good humor, but not always. Reasonable people can tell the difference. Same with CPT.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^ I had not realised that you were of Czech origin Mike. Two of my favourite creators are Mucha and Kafka, an intellectually fertile nation with Prague being an utter delight.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Shaver said:


> The perception of time's arrow is a conceit of consciousness not a physical law. Differing cultures differ. Australian aboriginals and native Americans reportedly did not acknowledge a similar expression of the 'now' as is described by our euro centric ideal. Try not to be prejudiced


I think it's safe to say that in all other respects, African American and those of European descent share a common way of keeping time in this country. I'm sure those distinctions were not going through either of their minds when they made the joke.


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## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

I told my employer, an attorney, about this, but I told him the two involved were Trump and Sarah Palin. After his 10 minute rant about racist Republicans, I told him who really said it, and showed him the YouTube vid... the look of disappointment and bewilderment was priceless!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> I think it's safe to say that in all other respects, African American and those of European descent share a common way of keeping time in this country. I'm sure those distinctions were not going through either of their minds when they made the joke.


Keeping time is a function of clocks whilst experiencing the passage of time is a variable phenomenon influenced by personality, culture and even mood.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Hence "colored people's" time? 

As I said, I'm sure anthropological distinctions were not foremost on their minds.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> ^ Hence "colored people's" time?
> 
> As I said, I'm sure anthropological distinctions were not foremost on their minds.


Nor on Reverend King's, presumably:

In his 1982 book "Let the Trumpet Sound: The Life of Martin Luther King, Jr.", author Stephen B. Oates notes that King and his staff operated by what they jocularly called 'CPT' - Colored People's Time, "and kept appointments with cheerful disregard for punctuality".[12] King once apologized for being late for a banquet, saying he forgot what time he was on - EST, CST, or Colored People's Time, adding that "It always takes us longer to get where we're going." (Oates, Stephen B. (1982), Let the Trumpet Sound: The Life of Martin Luther King, Jr. (paperback, Page 328).)

King understood what was bigotry and what was not.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ That's all fine and dandy but those weren't words uttered by Dr. King. 

They were uttered by white politicians, two who in fact go through great pains to lecture the country about how institutionalized racism is in this country and how it needs to change, and then proceed to express themselves in a racist way. 

If a woman says of Hillary Clinton, "she's b**chy" that woman is not a misogynist. If a man says that, he is.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

sbdivemaster said:


> I told my employer, an attorney, about this, but I told him the two involved were Trump and Sarah Palin. After his 10 minute rant about racist Republicans, I told him who really said it, and showed him the YouTube vid... the look of disappointment and bewilderment was priceless!
> 
> View attachment 16012





extra text to post


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> Well, wait a minute. Free speech simply means that the government cannot punish one from speaking his mind, even if feelings get hurt. Certainly, private citizens and institutions are free to reprimand or even punish those whose speech they believe is wrong or hurtful.
> 
> That said, the willingness to claim hurt or accuse ill-behavior anytime someone speaks in an area that involves race, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc., has stymied both reasoned discourse as well as good humor, both of which are necessary for a well-grounded civilization.


When the lame stream media spends so much time and effort covering a 10 second gaff that was uttered during the introduction of the candidate/speaker that they never do get around to covering the speech, that is a problem. Does the media exist to report the news, including gaffs, or just to serve as the PC police?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> When the lame stream media spends so much time and effort covering a 10 second gaff that was uttered during the introduction of the candidate/speaker that they never do get around to covering the speech, that is a problem. Does the media exist to report the news, including gaffs, or just to serve as the PC police?


Excellent point, and one I agree with. But to be fair, I think the media exist to make money, and they apparently believe, with good reason, that more Americans care about gaffes and scandals than the intricacies of public policy. I submit that responsibility for such misplaced priorities rests chiefly with the body politic and only secondarily with the media. My gripe with the media is centered more on their hypocrisy. For the most part they greatly over-sell their competence and their objectivity.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> ^ That's all fine and dandy but those weren't words uttered by Dr. King.
> 
> They were uttered by white politicians, two who in fact go through great pains to lecture the country about how institutionalized racism is in this country and how it needs to change, and then proceed to express themselves in a racist way.
> 
> If a woman says of Hillary Clinton, "she's b**chy" that woman is not a misogynist. If a man says that, he is.


I don't think that one can reach such conclusions from such flimsy evidence. A Polish-American tells an Irish-American a joke about two Italians, and you would brand them bigots. I think such conclusions are worse than silly.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> Excellent point, and one I agree with. But to be fair, I think the media exist to make money, and they apparently believe, with good reason, that more Americans care about gaffes and scandals than the intricacies of public policy. I submit that responsibility for such misplaced priorities rests chiefly with the body politic and only secondarily with the media. My gripe with the media is centered more on their hypocrisy. For the most part they greatly over-sell their competence and their objectivity.


You make an excellent point...we do seem to do a rather dismal job of picking/electing our masters, be they political, social or otherwise!


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

I'm hardly a fan of de Blasio, but he sure is clever in marrying an African-American woman to disguise his racism.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Mike Petrik said:


> I'm hardly a fan of de Blasio, but he sure is clever in marrying an African-American woman to disguise his racism.


I'll let his utterance speak for itself. I don't care who he's married to. That's between him and his wife.

That's the "some of my best friends are black" excuse and it's as lame when referring to one's spouse.

He made a racially tinged joke. Why? I haven't a clue. My guess is he thought it was ok simply because he's a liberal and married to a black woman, therefore he's part of the club and it's ok to do that.

He obviously felt quite comfortable making the comment and perhaps he can hide behind his wife's skirt or chalk it up to a comedy bit.

So where is the line crossed? What if he and Hillary came out and did a duet in black face?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> I'll let his utterance speak for itself. I don't care who he's married to. That's between him and his wife.
> 
> *That's the "some of my best friends are black" excuse and it's as lame when referring to one's spouse. *
> 
> ...


"Some of my best friends" is indeed a lame cliche. However, more properly expressed the sentiment may possess verity. All of this aside, how might we reconcile an accusation of racism against a person who is intimately involved with a member of the race in question?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Let him explain that. Furthermore, let it be incumbent on him to explain what he meant by "CP time". 

And not just excuse himself for saying it. Actually explain it. I want to hear a reporter ask him about it. What does it mean? I want to hear him explain how "******* keep time differently." Does his wife keep time as such? Is she chronically 15 minutes late for everything? 

Personally, I avoid jokes about anyone's heritage, ethnicity or race. I'm the furthest thing from PC, but I also make it a point to avoid gratuitous and crude humor that could be offensive.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

All of you guys should live for a period of time in Alabama. Believe me, Shaver, the Birmingham on this side of the pond is a far cry from its namesake in the West Midlands. Race relations around here are tenuous at best. Typically, if you want to find common ground with an Alabamian (regardless of their race), just bring up Mr. Bruce Jenner. Instant camaraderie.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

drlivingston said:


> All of you guys should live for a period of time in Alabama. Believe me, Shaver, the Birmingham on this side of the pond is a far cry from its namesake in the West Midlands.


For sure. And NYC is a far cry from Alabama.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> For sure. And NYC is a far cry from Alabama.


Hell, even Atlanta is on a different wavelength than our "fair" city. I recently had a chance to visit with Gov. Deal at our family reunion. When I brought up the issue of race relations in Georgia, i remember him changing the subject to the Atlanta Braves. Go figure...


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> Well, wait a minute. Free speech simply means that the government cannot punish one from speaking his mind, even if feelings get hurt. Certainly, private citizens and institutions are free to reprimand or even punish those whose speech they believe is wrong or hurtful.
> .


Mike, this is a point that so many people overlook, forget, or do not know. It is a point that I often make. You are legally free to say whatever you want and you will not suffer consequences from the government, but there will be consequences, good and/or bad to what you say.

Think carefully about the repercussions before exercising this right.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

drlivingston said:


> Hell, even Atlanta is on a different wavelength than our "fair" city. I recently had a chance to visit with Gov. Deal at our family reunion. When I brought up the issue of race relations in Georgia, i remember him changing the subject to the Atlanta Braves. Go figure...


Unfortunately, in the PC world we occupy Gov. Deal's deflection is the safest course of action regardless of his opinion.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

oxford cloth button down said:


> Mike, this is a point that so many people overlook, forget, or do not know. It is a point that I often make. You are legally free to say whatever you want and you will not suffer consequences from the government, but there will be consequences, good and/or bad to what you say.
> 
> Think carefully about the repercussions before exercising this right.


Of course, and this is healthy in appropriate measure. But IMO private sector political correctness has stifled both reasoned discourse and good humor, both of which are necessary for a healthy society.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

drlivingston said:


> Hell, even Atlanta is on a different wavelength than our "fair" city. I recently had a chance to visit with Gov. Deal at our family reunion. When I brought up the issue of race relations in Georgia, i remember him changing the subject to the Atlanta Braves. Go figure...


Not knowing the Gov. personally, I can't say I'm surprised. What politician at his level is going to wade into something like this at a social occasion only to find himself in an undercover youtube video saying something presumably racist.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> Not knowing the Gov. personally, I can't say I'm surprised. What politician at his level is going to wade into something like this at a social occasion only to find himself in an undercover youtube video saying something presumably racist.


FWIW I think "presumptively" would be more precise.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Perhaps. I'm sure you're right. Still, it's a wise politician who steers clear of such discussions in social settings.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> ^ Perhaps. I'm sure you're right. Still, it's a wise politician who steers clear of such discussions in social settings.


Absolutely agreed. High risk that whatever is said will be deemed bigoted (or at least insensitive) via presumption. Fairness, context, fact, or truth will not be relevant.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> Of course, and this is healthy in appropriate measure. But IMO private sector political correctness has stifled both reasoned discourse and good humor, both of which are necessary for a healthy society.


I am a little confused here. The private sector (people selling goods and services for profit) are stifling discourse and humor with political correctness?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

oxford cloth button down said:


> I am a little confused here. The private sector (people selling goods and services for profit) are stifling discourse and humor with political correctness?


Sorry for being unclear. By private sector I simply meant the non-governmental sector of our society; I was trying to point out that the pernicious inhibitions on discourse associated with political correctness are not a function of government sanction (excepting academia unfortunately), but of private action. And yes, in this regard much blame attaches to Big Business -- small business not so much.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Yes! Exhibit A: The faux outrage over the NC "bathroom law".


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## 215339 (Nov 20, 2012)

Hmm, I think that was just a lame joke, not a huge deal.

It was a situation of "white dude tries to make racial humour to seem cool, but fails".


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## 215339 (Nov 20, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> ^ Let him explain that. Furthermore, let it be incumbent on him to explain what he meant by "CP time".
> 
> And not just excuse himself for saying it. Actually explain it. I want to hear a reporter ask him about it. What does it mean? I want to hear him explain how "******* keep time differently." Does his wife keep time as such? Is she chronically 15 minutes late for everything?
> 
> *Personally, I avoid jokes about anyone's heritage, ethnicity or race*. I'm the furthest thing from PC, but I also make it a point to avoid gratuitous and crude humor that could be offensive.


Not around friends either?

Offensiveness and PC is definitely related, but I think there's different ways of expressing such humour.

Ex: I find Howard Stern a tryhard comedian. He makes "offensive" jokes for the sake of being offensive, I don't find him funny.

Russell Peters makes lots of crude, racial humour, but he does it in such a way that he makes fun of everyone, so no one is left out or singled out, and he exaggerates reality to make it entertaining.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

delicious_scent said:


> Not around friends either?
> 
> Offensiveness and PC is definitely related, but I think there's different ways of expressing such humour.
> 
> ...


No I don't. I'm sorry to surprise you or disappoint you with that revelation.

I don't find it funny, I don't find it amusing and I don't see it as sport. People are certainly free to express their sense of humor in any way they wish and I'm by no means holding myself out as a saint, but I don't engage in that sort of humor.


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## 215339 (Nov 20, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> No I don't. I'm sorry to surprise you or disappoint you with that revelation.
> 
> I don't find it funny, I don't find it amusing and I don't see it as sport. People are certainly free to express their sense of humor in any way they wish and I'm by no means holding myself out as a saint, but I don't engage in that sort of humor.


That's totally fair, was just curious.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

drlivingston said:


> All of you guys should live for a period of time in Alabama. Believe me, Shaver, the Birmingham on this side of the pond is a far cry from its namesake in the West Midlands. Race relations around here are tenuous at best. Typically, if you want to find common ground with an Alabamian (regardless of their race), just bring up Mr. Bruce Jenner. Instant camaraderie.


I'm not so sure, the last time that I actually had to visit Birmingham, such that I spent time there, I had an "interesting" conversation with a Sikh who was quite vocal in his condemnation of the "P*&is and N!"£$rs who run this city". There were race riots there not very long ago, between the Afro-Caribbean community and the Pakistani/Bangladeshi community. The inter-communal problems there go several ways, and is based on religion as well as race, with the Afro-Caribbeans disliking those of African heritage, those of Pakistani origins disliking those of Bangladeshi heritage, who also dislike those of Middle Eastern origins, who dislike the Jewish community, and they all dislike those of Chinese heritage. The Hindus and Sikhs dislike each other, and the others from the Sub-Continent. The Gujeratis dislike the Tamils and any other community from the Sub-Continent, who in turn dislike them, and the other Indian communities. Indeed, they all dislike each other, _*and*_ the more recent immigrants from Eastern Europe. That's without the involvement of the white people of British heritage, and those of Irish heritage, and the Italians, who after about 4 generations now, at least, still speak Italian.


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