# A Little Hard Core at New Bespoke Section,..



## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

For those who haven't seen the new section "Bespoke Clothing," I think it's worth a look.

I seems to me like the Bespoke Clothing Administrator has taken his task of seeing to it that no one who hasn't had Bespoke made for them in the past year will gain membership,....To heart!

Incomplete applications will simply be ignored!ic12337:


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks for the heads up.


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## newtothis (Apr 13, 2009)

I read the first post, it seems absolutely ridiculous.

As if this is supposed to be some exclusive club. Stupid.

It's like the janitor at McDonald's waving all those keys on his belt around. the power.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm going with an early review of INSTANT FAILURE. I would suggest a do-over and a ceremonial skipping of the application process. Open it up, limit the topic to bespoke and moderate it in the style of the rest of AAAC. 

...oh, and take the fascist moderator out back and shoot him while your up.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

..Sorry I just cant leave it alone ;-)

This just in....here is what the Apparatchik running it wrote:

Thank you for your interest. To apply to become a Bespoke Clothing Forum Member you need to send a PM to: BCF Admin as follows:

Copy and Paste the following:

1] Your first and last name
2] The name and contact information (phone number or e-mail address) of at least one bespoke maker who has created for you within the past two years
3] Your e-mail address

into a PM (click) to BCF Admin and fill in the responses. Your application will be reviewed within the next 30 days and you will receive a reply. Incomplete applications will simply be discarded. 

SO evidently a full background check will be run to verify that you REALLY REALLY had a suit custom made ("yes I am calling from AAAC have you ever made a suit for The Louche? no? AHA!! I knew it !")

Then a leisurely 30 days later you will find out if in fact you did get accepted or not, an amount of time that would make a DMV worker swoon with envy I might add. If however at the end of 30 days of waiting you dont receive any response it will be because the admin threw out your "application" without telling you for whatever reason or none at all, oh and there is no appeals process so move along sonny, nothing to see here.

Other than that it looks cool, I cant wait for another month to see what the posts look like if they are in fact visible which they probably wont be but I will still put it on my calendar on the off chance that anyone bothers to run the application gauntlet and then manages to get accepted!

Fine, I kid but this doesn't share the same look and feel of AAAC now does it?
ic12337:


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

*:icon_smile:*

Before this turns into an unsightly dog pile, I'm going to voice my two cents about this new board: make it an open board. The people with their views who don't belong will eventually be weeded out.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

As someone who won't be eligible to post there in the foreseeable future, I don't see anything wrong with the idea. Seems like one legitimate way to control the quality/level of conversation. I hope to learn a lot from reading it. Give it a chance.

The London Lounge, whose absence people were bemoaning, had (and I assume again has) a similar setup, right?

Sorry if this comment is uninformed in some way I don't realize--but hey, I didn't have to pass a knowledge test to post over _here_. :icon_pale:


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

deanayer said:


> ..Sorry I just cant leave it alone ;-)
> 
> This just in....here is what the Apparatchik running it wrote:
> 
> ...


At least this should keep out some of the riffraff.


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## Cottonshirt (Mar 15, 2009)

deanayer said:


> SO evidently a full background check will be run to verify that you REALLY REALLY had a suit custom made ("yes I am calling from AAAC have you ever made a suit for The Louche? no? AHA!! I knew it !")


Whilst I share your sense of mirth, if a recent experience at my tailor's is anything to go by this is unlikely to happen, and the postanista at BCF should know it.

I walked into my tailor's but had to stand aside at the door to let a gent out. As he crossed the pavement to his car I recognised a professional footballer of some repute. Inside the shop I said to my tailor, "Do you really make suits for Joe Bloggs?" [name changed] and he replied, "Good morning sir, have you come for your trouser fitting?" I smiled, he smiled, and we fitted my trousers.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Orsini said:


> At least this should keep out some of the riffraff.


Judging by the participation requirements, I'm guessing "riffraff" means most everyone left on this forum.

Considering how few threads here offer any substantial discussion of bespoke these days, I'll be interested to see how much traffic the forum receives. Somehow I'm doubtful that many of the bespoke customers who have left us will be eager to return, especially with the curiously anonymous "BCF Admin" at the modding helm. So much for the new era of transparency here.

The required contact info for a tailor/master artisan made me chuckle. Please, check my references!

I guess that's a reflection of the state of things. Yet I don't see it improving the situation.

.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

DocHolliday said:


> Judging by the participation requirements, I'm guessing "riffraff" means most everyone left on this forum...


It will certainly keep me out.

Just a gag...

As for the change in the tenor of this forum -- well that has been examined in detail several times. I will not broach it again.

Where is this new forum? I would like to see if I can bluff my way in. I enjoy a good working relationship with my dry cleaners. Perhaps he will vouch for me...


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## Joho (Apr 7, 2009)

What about anyone who wishes to learn more about bespoke before diving into the world of bespoke clothing?


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

With those entry rules would any one join? The forum of another member "The Cutter and Tailor" is a better bet at the moment. 

Why would any customer give personal details to the administrator of a website he does not know?


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## hmas (May 31, 2009)

Hmmm, I think that is a bit backward imo. One reason I joined AAC was to research and learn about clothing and custom clothing in particular. I am currently working on having my first bespoke suit made; so I guess I do not fit the bill. I will have to go to a different site I suppose.

As far as having a country club's feel of exclusivity, that really does not jive with the spirit of the web.

But go ahead and try it and see if it works. Once my suit is made, I will not be interested in going through a verification process so I can chat with random, unknown individuals anonymously over the internet.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Cottonshirt said:


> Whilst I share your sense of mirth, if a recent experience at my tailor's is anything to go by this is unlikely to happen, and the postanista at BCF should know it.
> 
> I walked into my tailor's but had to stand aside at the door to let a gent out. As he crossed the pavement to his car I recognised a professional footballer of some repute. Inside the shop I said to my tailor, "Do you really make suits for Joe Bloggs?" [name changed] and he replied, "Good morning sir, have you come for your trouser fitting?" I smiled, he smiled, and we fitted my trousers.


I think you may have identified a fundamental flaw in the application process...


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

While I find myself as put-off by overt displays of elitism, as the next guy, let us try to not get our OTR shorts bunched over a situation that proves conclusively; "the depth of one's wallet is frequently, inversely proportional to the depth of their intellect!" While the "blue-bloods" may have their very own fora, we heathens throw better parties.


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

deanayer said:


> I'm going with an early review of INSTANT FAILURE. I would suggest a do-over and a ceremonial skipping of the application process. Open it up, limit the topic to bespoke and moderate it in the style of the rest of AAAC.
> 
> ...oh, and take the fascist moderator out back and shoot him while your up.


Agree....and I think those of us who have been members of 
AAAC long enough could make a pretty good guess as to who the
BCF moderator is (as if anyone really cares.)

And isn't it against AAAC rules for a member to have more than one user name or are moderators exempt?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

If the riff raff reference was intended for me, and I suspect I was included, the fact of the matter is that I have had an item of bespoke clothing made within the past year so it looks like I qualify. Previously I had not gone beyond MTM.

That sounds like just the forum for me.









Cruiser


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## alex87tkd (Jun 12, 2009)

What utter rubbish, a background check for a forum?

AAAC has gone all Orwellian, or is a certain moderator about to get his/her wrists slapped for being so silly?


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Has someone told Frasier and Nile Crane that there is a new exclusive club in town, and it is very difficult to get into.

What happens if someone has suits, jackets, trousers, shirts and shoes that are bespoke but were made years ago; the bespoke forum would be missing out on a valuable contributor.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Don't make this a human rights issue. Lighten-up!

I would think that the application is to filter-out certain people who have no experience but no dearth of opinions. 

Is not it fair where there is a theater critics roundtable on television that all of the critics have seen the plays discussed? 

Cheers.


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## LeicaLad (Nov 5, 2006)

Strangely, I guess I would qualify. But this is merely because I've spent over 25 years living in Asia. At least 90% of my suits and dress shirts are made by my tailors. OTR really isn't an option! I did buy one OTR tuxedo while visiting the US, but it was an Armani on deep discount that I just couldn't resist. 

On the other hand, I'm certain that I don't fit the profile they apparently want. I'm a development worker and, if not dressed to meet donors and the like, am definitely dressed for the field.

And I certainly can never afford the type of "bespoke" apparently meant by this pretentious set up.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

I would join...but I simply cannot countenance the affront to my countrymen in the description of this new Forum. No reference to Savile Row. Horrors!


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

I are serious cat. This is serious threak.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

son of brummell said:


> Don't make this a human rights issue. Lighten-up!
> 
> I would think that the application is to filter-out certain people who have no experience but no dearth of opinions.
> 
> ...


Mark, I agree perhaps because I'm too dumb and shallow to be a guest at the better parties. That said, I think Cottonshirt raises a good point above -- a bit of a conundrum?


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> I would join...but I simply cannot countenance the affront to my countrymen in the description of this new Forum. No reference to Savile Row. Horrors!


Your right about that. Does Oxxford make Bespoke suits in the real Savile Row sense? Thought it was just an advanced MTM.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

David Reeves said:


> Your right about that. Does Oxxford make Bespoke suits in the real Savile Row sense? Thought it was just an advanced MTM.


That's OK. I believe the Bespoke Admin is diligencing that claim right now.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

I have a modest collection of bespoke holsters for my bespoke shooting irons. Do these qualify as bespoke accessories? :icon_smile_big:

More to the point, I would not continue to employ anyone so indiscrete as to discuss my orders with someone calling from a website to confirm my "credentials" for an internet forum.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*Snark Over: Back to Normal...*

I see now that this new "Custom Tailored Duds" section is on this forum. I guess I have not been keeping up on current events.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

I was wondering if my bespoke belt I had recently commissioned would quality. But, alas, the forum is open to regular wearers of bespoke clothing.

I have also commissioned a card case.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

newtothis said:


> I read the first post, it seems absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> As if this is supposed to be some exclusive club. Stupid.
> 
> *It's like the janitor at McDonald's waving all those keys on his belt around. the power*.


lol. i like that.


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

*Not my house, not my rules..*

As one transitioning out of RTW, I have had a few things MTO/MTM. I'm thinking they would not meet the lofty ideals advanced by that forum. So I guess that ones like myself would have to post pertinent questions on the Fashion forum and hope a Bespoke member would see and answer.

I thought the whole idea here was built upon perpetuating classic clothing styles, wearing the same and assisting others wanting to do so. I am sympathetic to a point; I see lots of posts about casual wear and think there's a need for a more focused forum or otherwise discouraging posts about jeans and t-shirts preferences. But is this the best way to do it?


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

I have to admit that I have made an application for membership of the new forum to see what will happen rather than anything else. I hope (!) that I have a good relationship with those who have made bespoke clothing and accessories for me and, as others have said, assume that they would not be prepared to discuss my status as a customer or not with anyone who might make enquiries. It will be interesting to see exactly what transpires re: my "application" and the new forum itself.

Chris.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Sorry, I get enough unsolicited e-mails without voluntarily giving out my e-mail or  makers phone number.

I'll pass.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have to admit that I have made an application for membership of the new forum to see what will happen rather than anything else. I hope (!) that I have a good relationship with those who have made bespoke clothing and accessories for me and, as others have said, assume that they would not be prepared to discuss my status as a customer or not with anyone who might make enquiries. It will be interesting to see exactly what transpires re: my "application" and the new forum itself.
> 
> Chris.


Just tell them *Orsini* sent you...


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> 
> *I have to admit that I have made an application for membership of the new forum to see what will happen rather than anything else*. I hope (!) that I have a good relationship with those who have made bespoke clothing and accessories for me and, as others have said, assume that they would *not be prepared to discuss my status as a customer or not with anyone who might make enquirie*s. It will be interesting to see exactly what transpires re: my "application" and the new forum itself.
> 
> Chris.


+1. Me too.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> If the riff raff reference was intended for me, and I suspect I was included, the fact of the matter is that I have had an item of bespoke clothing made within the past year so it looks like I qualify. Previously I had not gone beyond MTM.
> 
> That sounds like just the forum for me.
> 
> ...


:aportnoy: :aportnoy:



ToryBoy said:


> Has someone told Frasier and Nile Crane that there is a new exclusive club in town, and it is very difficult to get into.
> 
> What happens if someone has suits, jackets, trousers, shirts and shoes that are bespoke but were made years ago; the bespoke forum would be missing out on a valuable contributor.


I wonder if the Prince of Wales would qualify. Aren't there a great many well-dressed people who've not bespoken clothing in a while?


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Funny, funny stuff. Major lulz. I'd qualify, I assume, but really want no part of this.



> I hope (!) that I have a good relationship with those who have made bespoke clothing and accessories for me and, as others have said, assume that they would not be prepared to discuss my status as a customer or not with anyone who might make enquiries.


+2


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

So this appears a good idea which may have been poorly executed, or something like that. Everyone here can attest to the fact that certain discussions devolve into snipping, the exorcism of one's personal demons and name calling. If, as it appears, the desire was to limit that sort of behavior, I am all for it. I have seen a number of the artisans--who have even responded to this thread-- have their work mischaracterized by the rabble. I don't think this has anything to do with money, but a preference for social discourse over juvenile attempts to shock.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

JibranK said:


> I wonder if the Prince of Wales would qualify. Aren't there a great many well-dressed people who've not bespoken clothing in a while?


If the rumours are true then the PoW would qualify.

If the rumours are false then the PoW is a fine example of why the requirements are flawed.


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## JayGatsby (Mar 30, 2009)

Cottonshirt said:


> Whilst I share your sense of mirth, if a recent experience at my tailor's is anything to go by this is unlikely to happen, and the postanista at BCF should know it.
> 
> I walked into my tailor's but had to stand aside at the door to let a gent out. As he crossed the pavement to his car I recognised a professional footballer of some repute. Inside the shop I said to my tailor, "Do you really make suits for Joe Bloggs?" [name changed] and he replied, "Good morning sir, have you come for your trouser fitting?" I smiled, he smiled, and we fitted my trousers.


In a word - DISCRETION


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

gman-17 said:


> So this appears a good idea which may have been poorly executed, or something like that. Everyone here can attest to the fact that certain discussions devolve into snipping, the exorcism of one's personal demons and name calling. If, as it appears, the desire was to limit that sort of behavior, I am all for it. I have seen a number of the artisans--who have even responded to this thread-- have their work mischaracterized by the rabble. I don't think this has anything to do with money, but a *preference for social discourse over juvenile attempts to shock*.


Or perhaps Bilderbergian elitism! lol.


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

Lets not condemn the forum before it gets off the ground. I have conversed with some forum members that have left AAAC because most of the threads have been about JA Bank and getting inexpensive clothing off Ebay or thrift shops etc.. While that is great for someone that is just entering the business world or wants to start somewhere with limited funds, there should be a more advanced place to discuss bespoke and the like. personally, I have thought and entered the bespoke world to a degree. I want to consider more but need more info. I also think that the forum should include MTM, MTO, and areas that are close to bespoke. 

For example: 

Where in Los Angeles is there a good bespoke tailor? I have searched this forum and still do not have a great deal of confidence in any one place.

Give it a chance.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

mysharona said:


> Or perhaps Bilderbergian elitism! lol.


Should that be the case, I don't believe you or I will be offered admission--which would be their loss.


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Monogram qualify?


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## Wizard (Feb 29, 2008)

The other problem is that while we peasants can read the posts of royalty, we can not question them. What are we supposed to do, wait around until our betters just happen to discuss the very subject we are trying to learn about? Oh well, I suppose this is to prevent us from rising above our station.

Definitely a good idea gone wrong.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Tonyp said:


> Lets not condemn the forum before it gets off the ground. I have conversed with some forum members that have left AAAC because most of the threads have been about JA Bank and getting inexpensive clothing off Ebay or thrift shops etc.. While that is great for someone that is just entering the business world or wants to start somewhere with limited funds, there should be a more advanced place to discuss bespoke and the like. personally, I have thought and entered the bespoke world to a degree. I want to consider more but need more info. I also think that the forum should include MTM, MTO, and areas that are close to bespoke.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


Yes but LL provides an outlet for such discussion of high-end clothing without the need for restrictions such as the AAAC version of it does.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

JibranK said:


> Yes but LL provides an outlet for such discussion of high-end clothing without the need for restrictions such as the AAAC version of it does.


I can't speak to the recent considerations but if you are an early LL member you passed a far more rigorous screening than the one here.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I think to maintain the high standards of the new Bespoke Forum they should set the bar so that the cheapskate riffraff whose sole "bespoke" experiences have been through Asian (or other Third World) "tailoring" establishments should be excluded as well!


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Will said:


> I can't speak to the recent considerations but if you are an early LL member you passed a far more rigorous screening than the one here.


I understand. To me, though, the bigger issue is the fact that they will contact one's tailor which is an action I find somewhat lacking in correctness and that they require one to have purchased recently his clothing recently. I do not think it would be ridiculous to imagine that someone who bought his bespoke wardrobe relatively early in life and continues to wear the same garments should not be allowed to participate.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> I think to maintain the high standards of the new Bespoke Forum they should set the bar so that the cheapskate riffraff whose sole "bespoke" experiences have been through Asian (or other Third World) "tailoring" establishments should be excluded as well!


Probably a good idea. I know that my experiences with one of the places in Thailand was less than satisfactory. That's why I used a local guy for my bespoke. We can have a face to face, one on one interaction during the process.

Of course he is Asian so I guess that could still disqualify me, although he is a U.S. citizen. Also I guess the fact that I have only had pants made so far would also keep me out. Guess I'll have to get him to make me a suit.

Dang, I hate all of these rules. Makes me feel like I'm back in the Navy.

Cruiser


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## Bartolo (Mar 2, 2009)

Wizard said:


> Definitely a good idea gone wrong.


+1 from me.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> I think to maintain the high standards of the new Bespoke Forum they should set the bar so that the cheapskate riffraff whose sole "bespoke" experiences have been through Asian (or other Third World) "tailoring" establishments should be excluded as well!


Interestingly enough, because of Hong Kong's previous parenting by the UK government and the fact that many Hong Kong tailors had UK passports, many learned their trade as fabric cutters on Saville Row and can churn out a meticulous high-end suit. I would think twice before labeling a frugal individual who knows such facts as riffraff, just as I would think twice before labeling someone who did cast such a judgement as a di<k.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

^Long-time forum regulars would know that I was having a little bit of tongue-in-cheek fun there. I was (and am) wearing a cherished herringbone tweed hacking jacket from W.W. Chan of Kowloon as I posted those comments. In fact, Andy himself was with me when I selected the fabric and ordered it from Patrick.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

mysharona said:


> Interestingly enough, because of Hong Kong's previous parenting by the UK government and the fact that many Hong Kong tailors had UK passports, many learned their trade as fabric cutters on Saville Row and can churn out a meticulous high-end suit. I would think twice before labeling a frugal individual who knows such facts as riffraff, just as I would think twice before labeling someone who did cast such a judgement as a di<k.


Actually I didn't think JLib was serious,...

It shouldn't lift any eyebrows, people here on AA are human beings with all the flaws inherent in our species.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

mysharona said:


> Interestingly enough, because of Hong Kong's previous parenting by the UK government and the fact that many Hong Kong tailors had UK passports, many learned their trade as fabric cutters on Saville Row and can churn out a meticulous high-end suit. I would think twice before labeling a frugal individual who knows such facts as riffraff, just as I would think twice before labeling someone who did cast such a judgement as a di<k.


Jan was just kidding, I'm sure.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Jan was just kidding, I'm sure.


In that case, I offer my most humble apologies.


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## LeicaLad (Nov 5, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Jan was just kidding, I'm sure.


Good. Because, kidding or not, it was racist.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> ^Long-time forum regulars would know that I was having a little bit of tongue-in-cheek fun there. I was (and am) wearing a cherished herringbone tweed hacking jacket from W.W. Chan of Kowloon as I posted those comments. In fact, Andy himself was with me when I selected the fabric and ordered it from Patrick.


JLib, have you an opinion on the tone and tenner of the comments by the newly appointed bespoke moderator?

An uptight chap I'd say could well use a couple of stiff Martinis,...


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

mysharona said:


> In that case, I offer my most humble apologies.


No harm done but you've got to be at least a bit proud of the accounting you gave of yourself! (It was a very well timed come back in my opinion):icon_smile_big:


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

127.72 MHz said:


> JLib, have you an opinion on the tone and tenner of the comments by the newly appointed bespoke moderator?
> 
> An uptight chap I'd say could well use a couple of stiff Martinis,...


Who is the newly appointed bespoke moderator?


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## bigchris1313 (Apr 16, 2009)

Amidst the chaos, we've all missed what's *really* going on: obviously the bespoke suiting lobby has set up this forum to drive up demand for their wares among AAAC readers.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Jan was just kidding, I'm sure.


As was I. I'm not really going to have my guy make me a suit just so I can try to gain access to that forum. I don't need a new suit. Except for the occasional funeral or wedding I don't wear the ones I've got. Looks like the bespoke pants are it for now.

Just as well. They probably wouldn't have let me in anyway. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

No bespoke denim??


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

LeicaLad said:


> Good. Because, kidding or not, it was racist.


I disagree. Besides Jan has already told us he has Asian bespoke clothing. I see nothing in his post where he denigrates anyone from any race. If anything, I question the tone and reasoning behind this post from LeicaLad.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

127.72 MHz said:


> JLib, have you an opinion on the tone and tenner of the comments by the newly appointed bespoke moderator?
> 
> An uptight chap I'd say could well use a couple of stiff Martinis,...


My suspicion is that the moderator is a famous bespoke artisan himself and a veteran moderator on this forum.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> My suspicion is that the moderator is a famous bespoke artisan himself and a veteran moderator on this forum.


And no doubt one who is participating in this conversation at some point. Is it you?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

mysharona said:


> And no doubt one who is participating in this conversation at some point. Is it you?


It's not Jan.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

127.72 MHz said:


> No harm done but you've got to be at least a bit proud of the accounting you gave of yourself! (It was a very well timed come back in my opinion):icon_smile_big:


An apology does not negate pride. :devil:


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> It's not Jan.


Yeah... Jan doesn't have the moderator credit by his name. Well I guess the next inquiry would be an obvious one! :icon_smile:


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> My suspicion is that the moderator is a famous bespoke artisan himself and a veteran moderator on this forum.


That's very stand up of you. I have my own idea. Have you ever wondered how much of one's time is taken away each day to deal with people's personality disorders? (I have)

It's almost as if at some point he can be like "The Soup Nazi" and pick and choose whom he will *allow* to purchase the exclusive wares,...

Despite being skilled enough to make bespoke clothing a nasty demeanor can lay it all to waste.

Funny, not ha ha funny, just funny.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

culverwood said:


> With those entry rules would any one join? The forum of another member "The Cutter and Tailor" is a better bet at the moment.
> 
> Why would any customer give personal details to the administrator of a website he does not know?


You might do it if you wanted to help the website solicit advertising.


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## LeicaLad (Nov 5, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I disagree. Besides Jan has already told us he has Asian bespoke clothing. I see nothing in his post where he denigrates anyone from any race. If anything, I question the tone and reasoning behind this post from LeicaLad.


The quote is "..the cheapskate riffraff whose sole "bespoke" experiences have been through Asian (or other Third World) "tailoring" establishments should be excluded.."

I found the tone and reasoning offensive. I still do. It is your right to question it, but I still find it offensive. Even identified as a good ol' boy "joke".


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

mysharona said:


> And no doubt one who is participating in this conversation at some point. Is it you?


How would this be ethical? About the conspiracy theory with Bespoke tailors lobbying to up demand if there was one I wasn't involved!

The trouble with having just Bespoke customers post is the great difference in quality and price of Bespoke. We all know there's tailors all over the world that are creating Bespoke which isn't worthy of the name.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> As was I. I'm not really going to have my guy make me a suit just so I can try to gain access to that forum. I don't need a new suit. Except for the occasional funeral or wedding I don't wear the ones I've got. Looks like the bespoke pants are it for now.
> 
> Just as well. They probably wouldn't have let me in anyway. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


I don't think one suit will do it. It says something about "regular" experience with bespoke, doesn't it? No, don't think one suit is enough -- unless maybe if you wore it every day, of course...

What color's it gonna be?


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

David Reeves said:


> How would this be ethical? About the conspiracy theory with Bespoke tailors lobbying to up demand if there was one I wasn't involved!
> 
> The trouble with having just Bespoke customers post is the great difference in quality and price of Bespoke. We all know there's tailors all over the world that are creating Bespoke which isn't worthy of the name.


I don't see how my quote that you duplicated has anything to do with what you just said.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

It says any old riffraff can read the posts. Are there any posts to read? I don't see any...


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> My suspicion is that the moderator is a famous bespoke artisan himself and a veteran moderator on this forum.


Sorry Mysharona this is what I intended to quote.


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## alex87tkd (Jun 12, 2009)

LeicaLad said:


> The quote is "..the cheapskate riffraff whose sole "bespoke" experiences have been through Asian (or other Third World) "tailoring" establishments should be excluded.."
> 
> I found the tone and reasoning offensive. I still do. It is your right to question it, but I still find it offensive. Even identified as a good ol' boy "joke".


I sincerely hope you don't want or get an apology just because you _interpreted _it as racist. The riffraff comment was obviously a joke.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

It is delightful to see a bespoke forum added to AAAC. But it is also terribly disappointing for any whom once enjoyed bespoke clothing, and would like to participate, but are now just too old, worn-out and too plain broke to any longer indulge.

A careful perusal of the criteria reveals that while participation requires the purchase of at least one bespoke garment within the last two years, it doesn't necessarily specify the *nature* of said garment. Therein lies an opportunity for some of our most enterprising AAAC members who are bespoke artisans.

Vermont Teddy Bear offers bears with all manner of cute attire for special occasions. Perhaps our bespoke artisans could run-up something similar, only smaller and even less costly to the purchaser's specifications. Something that could be provided at a nominal cost. This could begin a whole new industry: The AAAC Bespoke Clothing Forum Qualifying Little Small Get-up, or AAACBCFQLSG, for, uh, short. Why, this could be a veritable cash-cow!

Absent such kindness, scruffy old geezers such as Flanderian will persist only like the vagabond urchins they once were, with our runny noses pressed against the plate glass of the toy shop on a cold winter's night, dreaming dreams of now distant Christmases.


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## LeicaLad (Nov 5, 2006)

alex87tkd said:


> I sincerely hope you don't want or get an apology just because you _interpreted _it as racist. The riffraff comment was obviously a joke.


I don't particularly care.

Do note, however, this statement by a senior member was in the direct context of establishing new and specific barriers from within a previously open arena for the explicit reason to keep out said riff-raff.

Your understanding of the context was what, again?


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## LeicaLad (Nov 5, 2006)

Flanderian said:


> Absent such kindness, scruffy old geezers such as Flanderian will persist only like the vagabond urchins they once were, with our runny noses pressed against the plate glass of the toy shop on a cold winter's night, dreaming dreams of now distant Christmases.


Eeek! The Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come!!!

.

P.S. - Flanderian's post was, by far, the best use of humor. :icon_smile:


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

You don't seem to understand that he is well-known by frequent forum members to be a customer of a Hong Kong tailor and that he wrote that knowing that he counted as said 'riffraff'


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## LeicaLad (Nov 5, 2006)

Context is crucial. (Text without context is but pretext.) 

The precious pretentions of this new forum make the attempt of humor fall terribly flat. Almost as flat as the new forum itself, which is, by the way, being heavily lampooned on the SF site.

Okay. I am no longer offended. Merely embarrassed.., for your sake.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

LeicaLad said:


> ...for the explicit reason to keep out said riff-raff...


Whoa, whoa, sunshine! You're really going to far with this!

Just because I made a gag about "riffraff" doesn't make it the management's official policy. I don't have the slightest empirical knowledge why management has made this move -- I was just making a convenient joke.

You can get as pissed off as you want about the post you are directly referring to but try to stay rational about it!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Flanderian said:


> ...with our runny noses pressed against the plate glass of the toy shop...


I wanted to make this joke too, but I didn't have the guts.


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## alex87tkd (Jun 12, 2009)

LeicaLad said:


> I don't particularly care.
> 
> Do note, however, this statement by a senior member was in the direct context of establishing new and specific barriers from within a previously open arena for the explicit reason to keep out said riff-raff.
> 
> Your understanding of the context was what, again?


Is that it was a joke and you are overly-sensitive, reactionary and silly.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

And on the same day the forum is announced the London Lounge rises like a phoenix from the ashes. Fate?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Figured they would put something up a bit more open. That is, a place for bespoke to most anyone. When you only have one place for every kind of clothes it is sorta a waste of time looking for bespoke, or wading through so much else to find something on bespoke. Style forum is the same- to much wading. By having a place for this and place for that they can easily kick something out of one into the other. But, to limit it to only buyers and business keeps those who want to know more out. After all, newbies sometimes have the most questions before they buy.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

David Reeves said:


> Your right about that. Does Oxxford make Bespoke suits in the real Savile Row sense? Thought it was just an advanced MTM.


Maybe you should say "in the real tailored sense?" Tailoring has been around more than a couple of hundred years before Savile Row even existed, not to mention, before the Brits ever came up with the word bespoke.

Even the Savile Row tailors changed there methods sometimes to keep their customers, because of immigrants tailors, which had some nice methods. So, if the Savile Row tailors started doing the immigrants methods what is the Savile Row sense?


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

The more I think about this endeavour, the more confused I become. Setting aside the questions related to who will be admitted to said club, what is to stop those who cannot post in that reserved space from posing their questions or from commenting on the _bespokelite's_ postings (albeit with an added dash of snark) on this Board (the one you are reading right now)? And if they do, which of the two Boards is likely to become the more interesting? While I believe I fit the entry requirements, I am still a child of the Sixties. _Power to the people!_


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Sorry but in the here and now in my opinion I still think Savile Row (the good side of the street) is the yard stick. There's generally a concensus that a Bespoke suit should have a pattern made for each individual client. I don't think Oxxford does this. Please let me know if I have been misinformed.



WA said:


> Maybe you should say "in the real tailored sense?" Tailoring has been around more than a couple of hundred years before Savile Row even existed, not to mention, before the Brits ever came up with the word bespoke.
> 
> Even the Savile Row tailors changed there methods sometimes to keep their customers, because of immigrants tailors, which had some nice methods. So, if the Savile Row tailors started doing the immigrants methods what is the Savile Row sense?


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

WA said:


> Maybe you should say "in the real tailored sense?" Tailoring has been around more than a couple of hundred years before Savile Row even existed, not to mention, before the Brits ever came up with the word bespoke.
> 
> Even the Savile Row tailors changed there methods sometimes to keep their customers, because of immigrants tailors, which had some nice methods. So, if the Savile Row tailors started doing the immigrants methods what is the Savile Row sense?


I'm sure Mr Reeves would consider tailors off of the Row and even outside of England to be bespoke. These would include Italian firms like Rubinacci and American tailors like Mr Logsdail.

The issue that he mentions regarding Oxxford is simply that it is made to measure - not bespoke. They do not, to the best of my knowledge, make patterns for their customers. Amount of machine vs hand stitching does not define bespoke - the pattern does.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

I think these obnoxious entry requirements are a poor proxy for what they should do--which is more stringent moderation. 

Have someone screen the comments and new posts to keep things organized and on-topic and filter out the noise.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

I believe you are correct Mr. Reeves. No individual pattern, no bespoke.

There is *so* much to be said about this whole thread on several different levels.

The Moderator who is in charge of the new bespoke forum has chosen to stay in the shadows in terms of his identity. Although given the irrepressible "Personality" in the comments the esteemed new Moderator makes in my mind it's clear who it is,...

I have thought briefly about the motivation or objective of the new Moderator to write something that is so distasteful to so many. I tried to put my finger on what aspect of his remarks galled me so,.... The fact that he could author this kind of drivel and then presumably proof read it without seeing how "Diagnosable" it is, says something about him.

I guess it's the sheer snobbery. I was taught that there's never a positive outcome from throwing one's weight around. It might be necessary on extremely limited occasions, say to protect one's self. But it's not the way to endear yourself to others.

I spent nine months in London on business. During that time myself and two other colleagues had twelve to fourteen garments made by Taylor's on "The Row" or in the City of Westminster. (all were bespoke)

I know the demographic of the individual the new bespoke forum would like to attract. And yes, I'm going to retaliate when I purchase to illustrate that one member of their "Market" finds their behavior distasteful.

There's just too many nice people who make me feel good about the clothing they are making for me. I'm not going to purchase custom clothing that makes me recall what a blow hard the guy was that made it for me,...

When I recall some of the gentlemen who guided me in London while making clothing for me I can see nothing in common in terms of attitude and demeanor with our new Moderator.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

According to the requirements in the welcome message, a bespoke garment is considered one that does not exist until it is commissioned. This would exclude MTM but not custom made suits that were made without more than one fitting, so long as the fabrics were assembled for the client and a pre-existing suit was not modified to fit.
If the Bespoke forum moderator disagrees, perhaps he can let us know.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Splitting hairs are we? That's it Mr. MySharona, *No Soup For You!* And *no bespoke clothing for you!* You're barred from ever joining in cigars around the campfire with the bespoke forum. You can't be one of the chosen few, you're excluded, singled out, even shamed.

It's funny but I'm told the mental health crowd can define syndromes for people who adopt some of these traits.

I believe it's also common among the servants of the uber-wealthy. It's like, "Look I make clothing for some of the most influential men in the country, continent, world, etc., and so ah, well, I'm with them."

Many people define themselves by who they've married, slept with, etc.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

mysharona said:


> According to the requirements in the welcome message, a bespoke garment is considered one that does not exist until it is commissioned. This would exclude MTM but not custom made suits that were made without more than one fitting, so long as the fabrics were assembled for the client and a pre-existing suit was not modified to fit.
> If the Bespoke forum moderator disagrees, perhaps he can let us know.


Wouldn't it depend on the MTM? I've had shirts made that existed only as cloth, measurements and my instructions -- same as bespoke. But there were no fittings involved. Definitely MTM, but would fit under the requirement you mention.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

127.72 MHz said:


> Splitting hairs are we? That's it Mr. MySharona, *No Soup For You!* And *no bespoke clothing for you!* You're barred from ever joining in cigars around the campfire with the bespoke forum. You can't be one of the chosen few, you're excluded, singled out, even shamed.
> 
> It's funny but I'm told the mental health crowd can define syndromes for people who adopt some of these traits.
> 
> ...


Are you trying to confuse me? Pardon "text message language" here, but WTF?


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

DocHolliday said:


> Wouldn't it depend on the MTM? I've had shirts made that existed only as cloth, measurements and my instructions -- same as bespoke. But there were no fittings involved. Definitely MTM, but would fit under the requirement you mention.


I would think of that as more of a MTO item myself.


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## Nerev (Apr 25, 2009)

I can understand why there _could_ be an application process to post in the bespoke section after reading most of page 2 of this thread. I certainly would not junk and "riff raff" like that in a clothing forum. But, this forum is about getting information and I just can't see how informative it could be if 90% of us couldn't even post there. I know I certainly wouldn't, but I am probably getting into the bespoke world in the next year or so. I guess I wouldn't be able to ask anything at this forum.

If you wanted something so stringent, you might as well just keep it heavily moderated. While being a forum nazi is as bad as screening out every possible cannidate because they do not fit your absolute particulars, I'd still go with the forum nazi. Just have it clearly stated that any post not related will get edited, period.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

mysharona said:


> Are you trying to confuse me? Pardon "text message language" here, but WTF?


Seinfeld reference.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

JibranK said:


> Seinfeld reference.


I got the No soup for you portion. The context made no sense to me considering my post that was quoted.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

And still no posts there - when will someone get the message?


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

culverwood said:


> And still no posts there - when will someone get the message?


The necessary 30 days of screening time has not yet elapsed!:crazy:


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

mysharona said:


> I got the No soup for you portion. The context made no sense to me considering my post that was quoted.


Just my sick sense of humor and I do realize it wasn't clear.

Pardon,


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

127.72 MHz said:


> Just my sick sense of humor and I do realize it wasn't clear.
> 
> Pardon,


Obscurity can be one of the more effective attributes of humor. lol.


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## bigchris1313 (Apr 16, 2009)

Orsini said:


> Multiple sentences in the first person


This thread would be much (x2) improved if Orisini were to post exclusively in the third person.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*What a Clever Idea!*



bigchris1313 said:


> This thread would be much (x2) improved if Orsini were to post exclusively in the third person.
> 
> This is irrefutable proof that *The Orsini* is the greatest guy ever!


To completely change the original text of someone's message in a "quote?" That had never occurred to *The Orsini*. From this point forward *The Orsini* will employ that technique exclusively.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> I think to maintain the high standards of the new Bespoke Forum they should set the bar so that the cheapskate riffraff whose sole "bespoke" experiences have been through Asian (or other Third World) "tailoring" establishments should be excluded as well!


Sshh! Don't suggest that. I'll never get in.


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## RipRoar (Jan 8, 2008)

Seems Groucho Marx's famous (probably apocryphal) quote applies quite well here: "I don't care to belong to any club that would have me as a member".

In all seriousness, the primary issues as I see them, which have also been echoed by a few others, are thus:

1) As someone who aspires to bespeak clothing in the coming years, I benefit greatly from sharing a forum with guys who are knowledgeable on the topic. I appreciate their wisdom, expertise, and experience. Also just want to read their recaps of various bespoke experiences. I fear they'll be driven to exist exclusively on this new forum, and we will miss the richness and depth they add to our discussions.

2) Why not at least make it readable to non-members? I know full well that I have nothing of value to contribute to in-depth bespoke clothing discussions, but I would certainly like to read them, if not participate.

I welcome input and response, especially if our Moderative overlords care to chime in. :icon_hailthee:


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

RipRoar said:


> 2) Why not at least make it readable to non-members? I know full well that I have nothing of value to contribute to in-depth bespoke clothing discussions, but I would certainly like to read them, if not participate.


Hello,

*Bespoke Clothing Forum Reader:* Any and all are welcome to read this forum. There are no hidden sections, private pages, or levels. Readership is open to all who come here.

At least in this respect there shouldn't be a problem.

Chris.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

RipRoar said:


> Seems Groucho Marx's famous (probably apocryphal) quote applies quite well here: "I don't care to belong to any club that would have me as a member".
> 
> In all seriousness, the primary issues as I see them, which have also been echoed by a few others, are thus:
> 
> ...


I think you will find that whether this new forum ever admits a single member or not, you will find plenty of resources elsewhere to help you.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

+1 on making it readable to all. After all, some of us are waiting to see if we will be remembered in a will and have already told our wives if the ship comes in the plane takes off for London soon afterwards. I'll need directions.

I can see the value in only having experts post, but letting the rest of us learn from their experience is, in many ways, what AAAC is all about.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

I think another problem with this whole idea is the fact that experience is being equated with knowledge and that, as we all know, is not always a wise assumption to make. I'm sure there are plenty of very rich men out there who have hundreds of bespoke suits in their closets and yet are not in the slightest bit familiar with how they are actually made. Asking these sorts of people to help you choose your next suit would not be particularly productive but they would have a vast amount of experience with the process of commissioning bespoke garments.

In other words, the most bespoke clothing certainly doesn't always equal the best posters on the subject.

Chris.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

A couple of other helpful suggestions to maintain the high standards of the new Bespoke Forum and exclude the two-bit small-timers, trouble-making iScum and the like.

I don't think it should be sufficient just to have acquired bespoke suits, jackets, shirts, etc. I think to prove you are worthy and a true connoisseur of bespoke, you should have to provide evidence (e.g., a photocopy of a receipt) that you have commissioned at least one pair of boots or shoes from a reputable, high-end bespoke cordwainer, e.g., John Lobb St. James, within the past five years.

Also, anyone with a known history of regular involvement in Devil's Island should automatically be excluded from the new forum.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

PedanticTurkey said:


> I think these obnoxious entry requirements are a poor proxy for what they should do--which is more stringent moderation.


If the Moderator is who we all think it is, there should be no worries whatsoever on that score!


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

David Reeves said:


> Sorry but in the here and now in my opinion I still think Savile Row (the good side of the street) is the yard stick. There's generally a concensus that a Bespoke suit should have a pattern made for each individual client. I don't think Oxxford does this. Please let me know if I have been misinformed.


Talking about tailoring. Oxxford is mtm not tailoring. Anyway, I believe some of the tailors of the past on SR didn't make paper patterns, but were still regarded by the bespoke tailors who did make paper patterns as bespoke tailors. In the end if you have a paper pattern but an ill fitting garment would that be bespoke? I think fit an comfort is a better way to describe bespoke, plus hand made, with out depending on fuse. Fuse is a crutch. While there are not many tailors in the US anymore there used to be thousands and from around the world and my point is that not all the best tailors were on the Row or came from the Row, but need to be equally respected.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

chrstc said:


> I think another problem with this whole idea is the fact that experience is being equated with knowledge


Or it may be something else entirely. Please notice that to participate a member must have purchased bespoke within the last two years. What if a member had done so throughout a long life, but not in the last 24 months? Are they suddenly been stuck ignorant? However this criterion* is *more likely to result in someone who is currently buying and most importantly soon* will be* buying again.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

WA said:


> In the end if you have a paper pattern but an ill fitting garment would that be bespoke?


I've only had two shirtmakers in my life. The first was a bespoke maker with individual paper patterns. (I visited the workroom and saw mine and those of many other clients.) The second was technically a MTM that machine cut panels from standard patterns stored in a computer that had been modified to fit my particular body. The second maker's shirts fit consistently better, more comfortably, were more uniform, and were better made and pattern matched. He was also better able to handle changes to the pattern and do so more precisely.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> ...two-bit small-timers, trouble-making iScum...


Best rhetoric since Lin Bao was shot down over the Himalayas! *Orsini* finds this quite amusing.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Awwww, Gawwd!!

The Moderator of the new forum described Oxxford as Bespoke. I was just questioning if it could be described as such because an individual pattern is not made every time.

I am not dismissing tailors outside Savile Row. I said in my opinion Savile Row was still the yard stick. I haven't worked for or known any Decent Savile Row tailor who doesn't create patterns from scratch for every client.......I used to spend ages Archiving and finding the damned things in a dark basement!

A pattern being made is part of the service it's extra work done to create an individual garment that fits like no other. Sorry but no pattern made and stored=MTM.



WA said:


> Talking about tailoring. Oxxford is mtm not tailoring. Anyway, I believe some of the tailors of the past on SR didn't make paper patterns, but were still regarded by the bespoke tailors who did make paper patterns as bespoke tailors. In the end if you have a paper pattern but an ill fitting garment would that be bespoke? I think fit an comfort is a better way to describe bespoke, plus hand made, with out depending on fuse. Fuse is a crutch. While there are not many tailors in the US anymore there used to be thousands and from around the world and my point is that not all the best tailors were on the Row or came from the Row, but need to be equally respected.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Flanderian said:


> I've only had two shirtmakers in my life. The first was a bespoke maker with individual paper patterns. (I visited the workroom and saw mine and those of many other clients.) The second was technically a MTM that machine cut panels from standard patterns stored in a computer that had been modified to fit my particular body. The second maker's shirts fit consistently better, more comfortably, were more uniform, and were better made and pattern matched. He was also better able to handle changes to the pattern and do so more precisely.


Well it's just a tool or technique though isn't it? Best tool and the best worker is optimum.

I do both Bespoke and a laser cut MTM service were it's all layplanned and laser cut. It's very impressive on a lot of levels. You can get a lot out of MTM especially if it's cutting edge. I know the strengths and weaknesses of both but ultimately if a pattern isn't made in my opinion I don't think it's Bespoke. You wouldn't go to Lobb and not expect a last to be made would you?

As for the question raised before about if a pattern was made but a garment fitted badly isit still Bespoke; based on these two criteria alone I would have to say unfortunatly yes but of course it would be crap Bespoke! This is a different topic entirely!


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

What, exactly, does this new, anonymously moderated sub-forum offer over the London Lounge? LL's application process is far less demanding and backed by Michael Alden, a man we know to have extremely good taste and expansive knowledge. As things are, LL is a relatively slow-paced forum, with very little 'riff-raff'. By being even more demanding and offering less, this new sub-forum stands to be even slower-paced without improving the quality of discussion. 

Honestly, I would be shocked if anyone agrees to turn over the contact information for their tailors. I would not harass my tailors that way and think it's absurd to expect incoming members to endanger their relationships with their tailors by having an unknown internet moderator call them up. Can accepted members expect to receive the name and phone number of the sub-forums's moderator? It seems only fair.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

mafoofan said:


> Honestly, I would be shocked if anyone agrees to turn over the contact information for their tailors. I would not harass my tailors that way and think it's absurd to expect incoming members to endanger their relationships with their tailors by having an unknown internet moderator call them up. Can accepted members expect to receive the name and phone number of the sub-forums's moderator? It seems only fair.


Well, I'm sure that information can easily be had simply by visiting www.customshirt1.com.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

PedanticTurkey said:


> I think these obnoxious entry requirements are a poor proxy for what they should do--which is more stringent moderation.
> 
> Have someone screen the comments and new posts to keep things organized and on-topic and filter out the noise.


I agree. The feel of the forum's introduction was very off-putting. Moreover, although I could qualify, I don't feel comfortable being publicly associated with something so crassly elitist. Nor do I want anyone calling people with whom I do business to verify my credentials.

The criteria exclude those who might buy bespoke, if they could ask questions on the forum.

The forum has been locked.

I thought Oxxford was MTM, not bespoke. That the secret moderator did not know this does not inspire confidence in his/her knowledge of the subject matter.

FWIW, I was not offended by Jan's remark. I am the resident green leftist. (I have the "creds," but will not repeat them here. Leica Lad can PM me if interested.)

Who is the secret moderator?

Regards,
Gurdon


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

*Can somebody fill me in?*

Is the moderator of the new forum with the goofy and off-putting initiation ritual the guy...Alex I think...who makes shirts and sells socks on this site?


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

*Vanity Fair..*

I think this new forum will not last the weekend.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

David Reeves said:


> Awwww, Gawwd!!
> 
> The Moderator of the new forum described Oxxford as Bespoke. I was just questioning if it could be described as such because an individual pattern is not made every time.
> 
> ...


What is nice about patterns kept is the history. Any SR business that goes out of business I hope they donate this history to a museum and the books that go with them. I believe some of the patterns during WWII were lost. You are indeed lucky to have these so close to where you live. I would have to travel thousands of miles and they probably wouldn't let me in to see them.

To me the golden age of tailoring is my grandparents age, which started about 1880-1890s till they died 80-90 years later. The art of the iron is largely missing because the cleaners will destroy it, so why put it in? If you ask the cleaners not to press the coat, then ask for an old tailor to put the art of the iron in you will be wearing splendor rarely seen today (not all tailors know how to do it). While tailors today have better pattern systems they are missing the art of the iron, and there is not as much rock of eye anymore. It is rare to see a completely hand sewn jacket anymore where all the sewing included a thimble and no sewing machine. These garments of trousers, vest, coat and shirt (all underwear) have a comfort no machine can ever give.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

David Reeves said:


> Well it's just a tool or technique though isn't it? Best tool and the best worker is optimum.
> 
> I do both Bespoke and a laser cut MTM service were it's all layplanned and laser cut. It's very impressive on a lot of levels. You can get a lot out of MTM especially if it's cutting edge. I know the strengths and weaknesses of both but ultimately if a pattern isn't made in my opinion I don't think it's Bespoke. You wouldn't go to Lobb and not expect a last to be made would you?
> 
> As for the question raised before about if a pattern was made but a garment fitted badly isit still Bespoke; based on these two criteria alone I would have to say unfortunatly yes but of course it would be crap Bespoke! This is a different topic entirely!


Most certainly, David. My point being only that excellent MTM can be better than so-so bespoke. In fact, from my limited experience, it can be a lot better. You point out that there is some knowledge and skill that is specific to one or the other, and I'm sure there's also areas that are common. Without your knowledge I will still hazard a guess that a higher level of knowledge and skill is required to consistently produce very fine bespoke compared to the same level of quality for MTM. But when this is realized, I fully acknowledge that results can be superior to anything that MTM would produce.

I'm in entire agreement regarding your definition of bespoke vs. MTM.

I also suspect from my experience that it's easier for good MTM to be more highly consistent than bespoke. Leaving shirts, I once had a CMT, who did the cutting himself and sent the jackets and slacks out to others to made up. As he was limited by many factors as to who he could find to make things up, there was substantial variability in construction and in fit, depending on how the clothing was sewn. Since I was doing this at very modest cost, I happily accepted any alterations he would find necessary to assure garments were satisfactory. If were paying a good deal more, I might have been less pleased.

From reading and conversations with others, it seems not unusual for even fine quality bespoke tailors to produce items that are less than perfect. And when faced with a revered name, particularly for younger clients who may be both less knowledgeable and over-awed by bespoke tailoring. I have to wonder if for many of them MTM might not consistently produce as good or better results than they are likely to obtain from bespoke, and at substantially less cost. I have a friend who wears only Savile Row bespoke. I saw him at a solemn occasion dressed in a black suit (OK, it should have been charcoal.) that was one of the most beautiful garments I've ever seen. Another time, I saw him in a dark brown corduroy odd jacket. Beautiful corduroy! The cut looked as if it might have been A&S, though I don't know if they deal in anything but woolens. The jacket was at least 1 ½" too short, and the hem was so badly finished it looked as if it might have been scalloped!


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Maybe we should limit access to the fashion forum to those who can produce a receipt from Needless Markup in the last 30 days, what with the rare breed of premium purchasing now being an indicator of knowledge and taste.

.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

mafoofan said:


> Honestly, I would be shocked if anyone agrees to turn over the contact information for their tailors.


"Hello, Angus?"

_"This is Mr. Cundey, with whom am I speaking?"_

"This is The Big D over at the AAACBCF."

"_I beg your pardon?"_

"Yeah, well listen, I need to know if Andy Gilchrist is a client of yours?"

_"Who?"_

"You know, do you make stuff for Andy?"

*"Click! . . . . "*


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

WA said:


> The art of the iron is largely missing because the cleaners will destroy it, so why put it in? If you ask the cleaners not to press the coat, then ask for an old tailor to put the art of the iron in you will be wearing splendor rarely seen today (not all tailors know how to do it). While tailors today have better pattern systems they are missing the art of the iron


The old tailors used to teach that "the iron is the best tailor". These is lot less stretching and fulling on modern garments compared to the old days.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Sator said:


> The old tailors used to teach that "the iron is the best tailor". These is lot less stretching and fulling on modern garments compared to the old days.


I must have heard that as a small child because that is what I saw. No amount of sewing and cutting can even come close to what the iron can do. Indeed the iron shapes the cloth around the person and much more. I would think the person using the iron would have to see the person the coat is being made for to properly shape the cloth to fit. Proper spring really comes from the iron and not the seams. The seams help a little bit but not much. In Caberars book you can see the plain tailored coat which looks almost lifeless to me. But one guy in one of those pictures has the art of the iron. Not what I've seen before, but not bland like the others, for it is full of life. Back in the 70s I saw this one old man with a yellow blazer that was really nicely shaped. What I didn't like was the hand-sewing was all grinning (I don't think there was a machine stitch in that coat, but the hand-sewing should have been dead straight). This coat reminded me of some of the coats JFK wore. The three other guys he was with had flat pressed coats, rather bland. As a boy I used to watch the cloth move and the ones that were properly pressed moved with the person gracefully and with out resistance. The flat pressed garbage was a disgrace to the eyes and very resistful to proper movement. Anyway, that is my opinion.

There was another guy wearing full dress. He was conducting his music that he wrote. He had an Italian tailored coat. The best tails I have ever seen. What made it so incredibly outstanding was the iron work. Every curve blended in with the others as they should. Sometimes the curves don't connect "seamlessly", his did. I don't know how a tailor could do a better tailcoat than that one. He may have died in the 40s, so that was an old bw film clip. Don't remember his name and couldn't find any pictures on the internet. That coat is worth a poster. Another tail coat I saw at a museum the top of the sleeve was shaped like the roundness of a baseball at the end of the shoulder. I have never seen that much shaping of the crown of the sleeve cap before. Some of those guys of the past were really really good. I really miss seeing that art.


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

JLibourel said:


> Well, I'm sure that information can easily be had simply by visiting www.customshirt1.com.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> ....I don't think it should be sufficient just to have acquired bespoke suits, jackets, shirts, etc. I think to prove you are worthy and a true connoisseur of bespoke, you should have to provide evidence (e.g., a photocopy of a receipt) that you have commissioned at least one pair of boots or shoes from a reputable, high-end bespoke cordwainer, e.g., John Lobb St. James, within the past five years....


Oh goody! If they include Paul Bonds boots as one of those "reputable, high-end bespoke cordwainers", I may actually qualify for the BCF? Would this mean I am old money...my wife says, "when it comes to money, I'm tighter than two coats of paint!" Mommy, would that make me one of the popular boys and girls? :icon_smile_big:


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## Cottonshirt (Mar 15, 2009)

BCF Admin said:


> It is that clothing, clothing accessory, and/or furnishing specifically made for an individual after discussion with and concurrence of its maker. It is unique and *it is made of exemplary quality*.


 {Emphasis added}

I think it was David Reeves who recently posted about a jacket he made for a pop star who insisted that it have no facings, lining, or canvas. After seeing the pop star wear it on stage David described the jacket as "a bin liner". The point being that despite being made on Savile Row, it was most definitiely not of "exemplary quality".

So, even assuming that anyone ever passes the entry process and their tailor actually confirms their commissioning of garments in the requisite time period, how is the BCF Admin going to determine whether said garments were made of "exemplary quality"?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Oh goody! If they include Paul Bonds boots as one of those "reputable, high-end bespoke cordwainers", I may actually qualify for the BCF? Would this mean I am old money...my wife says, "when it comes to money, I'm tighter than two coats of paint!" Mommy, would that make me one of the popular boys and girls? :icon_smile_big:


How about socks? Socks can be bespoke, can't they? I think I may still be able to afford bespoke socks! :idea:


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Cottonshirt said:


> The point being that despite being made on Savile Row, it was most definitiely not of "exemplary quality".


There is a difference between quality and good taste. I would surmise that the garment in question was indeed very well made; indeed, the quality and workmanship could well have been exemplary. Whether it was attractive, stylish, or even mildly presentable is another issue. Indeed, this is the essence of bespoke. The customer gets to decide.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> There is a difference between quality and good taste. I would surmise that the garment in question was indeed very well made; indeed, the quality and workmanship could well have been exemplary. Whether it was attractive, stylish, or even mildly presentable is another issue. Indeed, this is the essence of bespoke. The customer gets to decide.


Here is an old newspaper article about a guy who's clientele consists primarily of professional athletes. I doubt that many here would wear the clothing designs he creates, but at the same time I suspect that the clothes he makes are of high quality construction and materials.

https://articles.latimes.com/2001/feb/04/sports/sp-20900

I guess it's possible that guys like A-Rod, Michael Jordon, and Eddie George would wear cheaply made clothes, but I tend to doubt it.

Cruiser


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*additional observations*

I revisited the bespoke location. I did not see references to English clothing. The names I did see suggest to me, and I am a clothing novice, a focus on expensive brands with high name recognition, rather than an interest in tailoring. Nor was there mention of bespoke shoes, a particular interest of mine.

Seems to me as if the new forum is intended as a sort of sales forum designed to bring potential customers into exclusive engagement with high end clothing merchants. (Others have said as much. But the underlying commercial intent here seems to me to warrant highlighting.)

I was initially pleased that a bespoke forum was being started, as there are a number of things I'd like to ask about. The way it is presently set up, however, is not appealing, for reasons already covered by previous posts. I would, to cite one example, like to be able to discuss differences between tailors, I have used two, so far, with people who could help me learn more about the process. I think the discussion, by WA and others, about the use of the iron would be a worthwhile contribution to a bespoke forum, regardless of the degree to which the interlocutors satisfy the somewhat narrowly focussed qualifications set forth by the secret moderator.

I sometimes feel uncomfortable posting about bespoke because it can come off as showing off. I would have hoped that a well conceived bespoke forum would provide a place where the discussion could take place and, because of the stated subject-matter, this would be less of an issue. Instead the proposed forum has just the opposite effect. As several of us have mentioned, the tone of the undertaking is elitist and off-putting, rather than welcoming.

Perhaps the enterprise can be reconsidered (salvaged?) and the comments posted here taken into consideration by Andy, an altogether exemplary individual, and the anonymous moderator or moderators of the new forum. Possibly two bespoke forums could be opened: the commercial one already underway, and one for amateurs, moderated by two or three of the contributors to this thread. (The first definition of amateur in my dictionary: "someone who does something for the pleasure of it rather than for money.")

Regards,
Gurdon


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Of course I must stress that he insisted on having his jacket made like this despite my very best efforts to persuade him otherwise.

It was also very hard to say no to him considering who he was and considering it wasn't my firm.



Cottonshirt said:


> {Emphasis added}
> 
> I think it was David Reeves who recently posted about a jacket he made for a pop star who insisted that it have no facings, lining, or canvas. After seeing the pop star wear it on stage David described the jacket as "a bin liner". The point being that despite being made on Savile Row, it was most definitiely not of "exemplary quality".
> 
> So, even assuming that anyone ever passes the entry process and their tailor actually confirms their commissioning of garments in the requisite time period, how is the BCF Admin going to determine whether said garments were made of "exemplary quality"?


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Gurdon said:


> I was initially pleased that a bespoke forum was being started, as there are a number of things I'd like to ask about. The way it is presently set up, however, is not appealing, for reasons already covered by previous posts. I would, to cite one example, like to be able to discuss differences between tailors, I have used two, so far, with people who could help me learn more about the process. I think the discussion, by WA and others, about the use of the iron would be a worthwhile contribution to a bespoke forum, regardless of the degree to which the interlocutors satisfy the somewhat narrowly focussed qualifications set forth by the secret moderator.
> 
> I sometimes feel uncomfortable posting about bespoke because it can come off as showing off. I would have hoped that a well conceived bespoke forum would provide a place where the discussion could take place and, because of the stated subject-matter, this would be less of an issue. Instead the proposed forum has just the opposite effect. As several of us have mentioned, the tone of the undertaking is elitist and off-putting, rather than welcoming.


Try asking your bespoke questions at Styleforum or London Lounge. Bespoke discussions are typical at both forums and the knowledgeable posters who used to spend time on AAAC are now all at Styleforum. London Lounge is specifically about bespoke, but it's a slower forum with fewer members. As of the moment, there is an ongoing 32-page thread on Styleforum discussing what details Manton should specify for his bespoke dinner jacket. It's really quite enthralling for anybody who wants to discuss the differences between three minutely different choices of midnight blue barathea (all from Smith, nonetheless), in both all wool and mohair blend, and whether you should get a buttonhole put in your shawl lapel (and if so, on both sides, or only one?). I started a thread asking for similar advice a few months ago and found it extremely helpful.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Maybe they could make a new forum where all they do is filter out the 33 pages of noise from the 34-page threads at styleforum and post just the useful information.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Maybe they could make a new forum where all they do is filter out the 33 pages of noise from the 34-page threads at styleforum and post just the useful information.


Oh, don't be so grumpy. It's not that hard to find threads that interest you.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

I don't think you quite understand me--it's hard to find useful information in the threads because of all the in-jokes and banter.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Perhaps that's true for you, Master Foo...though I would note that most of _your_ postings on that Board seem to be about _you_, which _you _might find fascinating but simply do not appeal to me. To each his own. While there is indeed some quality content on SF, it tends to get lost in a sea of snark. If you favour adolescent high school behaviour, I am sure you would find that approach to your liking. I'd rather socialize with the grown-ups. :devil:


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

We welcome change and openness; for we believe that off-the-peg and bespoke go together, that the advance of raiment can only strengthen the cause of world aesthetics. There is one sign the Administration can make that would be unmistakeable, that would advance the cause of narcissistic personal adornment. Bespoke Forum Administrator, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for custom artisans and the impoverishment of AAAC forumites, if you seek dandification, come here to this gate. Mr. Bespoke Forum Administrator, open this gate. Mr. Bespoke Forum Administrator, _tear down this wall!_


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> While there is some indeed some quality content on SF, it tends to get lost in a sea of snark. If you favour adolescent high school behaviour, I am sure you would find that approach to your liking. I'd rather socialize with the grown-ups.


I visited SF a time or two and found quite a few postings ridiculing and making fun of me, and I don't even post there. Heck, I don't need to go over there to to be ridiculed by strangers. I may as well just stay here and be ridiculed by those with whom I'm already familiar.









Cruiser


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Maybe they could make a new forum where all they do is filter out the 33 pages of noise from the 34-page threads at styleforum and post just the useful information.





PedanticTurkey said:


> I don't think you quite understand me--it's hard to find useful information in the threads because of all the in-jokes and banter.


They filtered you out, in the interest of full disclosure, and it seems you are still bitter.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

And look, Master Foo, we have RJman over here! What else could one desire.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

I would ask everyone on this thread to please go back to making snotty comments about the Bespoke Forum Moderator, instead about each other. That was more seemly.

By comparison, I mean.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

PedanticTurkey said:


> I don't think you quite understand me--it's hard to find useful information in the threads because of all the in-jokes and banter.


All you have to do is ask what everyone's bantering about. Someone will explain. The explanation will no doubt be inaccurate and biased, but you will then be 'in' and no longer 'out'. I'll be your guide if you'd like.



Mr. Chatterbox said:


> Perhaps that's true for you, Master Foo...though I would note that most of _your_ postings on that Board seem to be about _you_, which _you _might find fascinating but simply do not appeal to me. To each his own. While there is indeed some quality content on SF, it tends to get lost in a sea of snark. If you favour adolescent high school behaviour, I am sure you would find that approach to your liking. I'd rather socialize with the grown-ups. :devil:


Look, if you hang around these forums, and _don't_ post primarily about yourself, you're doing something wrong. That's what I always say.

Oh, and we both know that grown-ups are far bitchier and snarkier than kids. The cap on this forum is going to blow one day, and you'll all be taken by surprise.



Cruiser said:


> I visited SF a time or two and found quite a few postings ridiculing and making fun of me, and I don't even post there. Heck, I don't need to go over there to to be ridiculed by strangers. I may as well just stay here and be ridiculed by those whom I'm already familiar.


Do what I do. Start frequenting all the forums where you are ridiculed, and then . . . well, I haven't figured out how to stop the ridiculing yet, but that's a start.



RJman said:


> They filtered you out, in the interest of full disclosure, and it seems you are still bitter.


The 'i' in 'bitter' is for 'iGent'.



Mr. Chatterbox said:


> And look, Master Foo, we have RJman over here! What else could one desire.


That's not RJman. That's his ghostly residue. You see, whenever a member stops frequenting AAAC, he leaves behind echoes and ripples of his cyber-self. You're hearing RJman circa 2006, which is no substitute for RJman now-and-not-here. Ironically, it's RJman who understands this principle the best. Ask him about the Transformers episode, "Starscream's Ghost."


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> I visited SF a time or two and found quite a few postings ridiculing and making fun of me, and I don't even post there. Heck, I don't need to go over there to to be ridiculed by strangers. I may as well just stay here and be ridiculed by those whom I'm already familiar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well you are a well known anti hero of sorts.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

mafoofan said:


> That's not RJman. That's his ghostly residue. You see, whenever a member stops frequenting AAAC, he leaves behind echoes and ripples of his cyber-self. You're hearing RJman circa 2006, which is no substitute for RJman now-and-not-here.* Ironically, it's RJman who understands this principle the best. Ask him about the Transformers episode, "Starscream's Ghost."*


OMG, this comment wins the Internet. I never even realized it but the foo has it right.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

But is it really The Foo or just some ethereal vestige of an AAAC-Foo-gone-bye, his words echoing across the cyberverse, his image pixilating into a million little pieces. Can he -- like Humpty Dumpty -- ever be put back together again?

Dearest, AreJay: now that we have made this thread about the Fooster (for which I am sure he is eternally pleased and grateful); can we change direction so that the Voxmeister can have equal time? Surely we must be even handed in our treatment of the Stylumites? They visit us so rarely.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> Dear stArJay: now that we have made this thread about the Fooster (for which I am sure he is eternally pleased and grateful); can we change direction so that the Voxmeister can have equal time? Surely we must be even handed in our treatment of the Stylumites? They visit us so rarely.


The 2006 RJ didn't have to deal with voxsantorum.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Please remind me, was it truly a kinder and gentler world? Memories fade...until (like the Demon Baron) they simply disappear.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

RJman said:


> OMG, this comment wins the Internet. I never even realized it but the foo has it right.


Please submit it to Dopey for consideration in his thread on the forum you're really at right now. I'm not sure if he'll entertain cross-forum nominations, but he is an open-minded dwarf.



Mr. Chatterbox said:


> But is it really The Foo or just some ethereal vestige of an AAAC-Foo-gone-bye, his words echoing across the cyberverse, his image pixilating into a million little pieces. Can he -- like Humpty Dumpty -- ever be put back together again?


I'll send an echo-PM to myself over at Styleforum and see what I think.



Mr. Chatterbox said:


> Dearest, AreJay: now that we have made this thread about the Fooster (for which I am sure he is eternally pleased and grateful); can we change direction so that the Voxmeister can have equal time? Surely we must be even handed in our treatment of the Stylumites? They visit us so rarely.


Clearly, you haven't been keeping up with the franchise. We're way beyond RJman, Manton, Iammatt, and Dopey. Heck, we're way beyond Mafoofan and Voxsartoria. It's a whole new series, _Styleforum: the Next Generation_. Mr. Moo is the new ensign who is supposed to be destined for great things but everyone hates his Borrelli jacket so much that he gets kicked off the show. Tune in.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

The mind boggles! Alas, it is past my bedtime. I will retire now, but will awake in the morning in eager anticipation of another day in Mr Andy's neighbourhood.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Isn't this a bit like the "bizarro" world of the comics where people from another dimension are transported into a parallel universe?


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> I visited SF a time or two and found quite a few postings ridiculing and making fun of me, and I don't even post there. Heck, I don't need to go over there to to be ridiculed by strangers. I may as well just stay here and be ridiculed by those whom I'm already familiar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1 I agree.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Shut up, you ball-less bunch of big girls' blouses. The sooner the new forum starts the better. Poseurs like you mincing iGents can keep out and stick to discussing your recrafted Bostonians and dry-cleaner altered Baronis.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> Shut up, you ball-less bunch of big girls' blouses. The sooner the new forum starts the better. Poseurs like you mincing iGents can keep out and stick to discussing your recrafted Bostonians and dry-cleaner altered Baronis.


I see the Werewolf of London has posted: "Better stay away from him, he'll rip your lungs out Jim! Huh! I'd like to meet his tailor."

I prefer Mantoni.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

What the hell is everyone babbling about? This thread died two pages ago. this went from on-topic to sans topic and then it became encrypted somehow. Its exactly this kind of drivel that pollutes SF, take it back there please.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

deanayer said:


> What the hell is everyone babbling about? This thread died two pages ago. this went from on-topic to sans topic and then it became encrypted somehow. Its exactly this kind of drivel that pollutes SF, take it back there please.


Okay.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

I think they're trying to illustrate the SF noise I mentioned earlier.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

RJman said:


> I see the Werewolf of London has posted: "Better stay away from him, he'll rip your lungs out Jim! Huh! I'd like to meet his tailor."
> 
> I prefer Mantoni.


Usual meaningless gibber jabber from RJMan.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

deanayer said:


> What the hell is everyone babbling about? This thread died two pages ago. this went from on-topic to sans topic and then it became encrypted somehow. Its exactly this kind of drivel that pollutes SF, take it back there please.


+1 and...just perhaps, the mindless bickering, illustrated in the past two pages is why someone(?) thought the arguably onerous screening requirements for participation in the BCF were necessary. Indeed, have we "met the enemy and he is us"?


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## ccffm1 (Jul 31, 2005)

What if my tailor has passed away? No cruising around the BSF for me, then?


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> +1 and...just perhaps, the last two pages of mindless bickering, illustrated in the past two pages is why someone(?) thought the arguably onerous screening requirements for participation in the BCF were necessary. Indeed, have we "met the enemy and he is us"?


What does it say about the state of a men's clothing forum when the powers-that-be decide a discussion of bespoke clothing can be had only in isolation from that forum?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

DocHolliday said:


> What does it say about the state of a men's clothing forum when the powers-that-be decide a discussion of bespoke clothing can be had only in isolation from that forum?


Would that depend on the objective of that forum?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

DocHolliday said:


> What does it say about the state of a men's clothing forum when the powers-that-be decide a discussion of bespoke clothing can be had only in isolation from that forum?


This forum, like most things in life, approximates a bell shaped curve. A few want to discuss denim or more fashion forward topics and a few want to talk about bespoke clothing topics while the overwhelming majority fall somewhere in the middle. Most men, even most men who participate in this forum, wear OTR or MTM clothing and, as such, have limited interest and/or experience in bespoke clothing.

For those who do involve themselves with bespoke clothing on some level, I have seen nothing going on that is interferring with or hampering their discussions. Search "bespoke" in the forum and try to find a thread where anyone has interferred with the discussion in any way.

I guess the argument will be that they won't have to search through a bunch of threads about more trivial matters in order to get to the bespoke threads if they have their own forum. How is that any different from anyone else who posts here. We all have to scroll through a page or two of threads each day to find those that interest us. Besides, those who want a bespoke forum go through all those other threads anyway because they tend to pop up on a regular basis in threads in which they say they have no interest if only to belittle those who do have an interest in whatever is being discussed.

Having said all that, I'm all for a separate bespoke forum. Heck, look at all of the separate forums that currently exist in AAAC. What's one more. I do expect that by screening people out they will find that there is limited interest in the forum since most of the conversation would most likely have been generated by guys who are interested in information about bespoke but under the current set up won't be allowed to post those questions. I expect those questions will be posted in this forum like they always have.

Didn't the moderators and admins try to establish a denim forum a while back? It must have failed because I haven't heard anything else about it. After all, how much is there to say about blue jeans? I have a feeling that the bespoke forum will suffer a similar fate if those who want to ask questions are excluded from participation.

Cruiser


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> Heck, look at all of the separate forums that currently exist in AAAC.


You mean all the ones with no traffic, right?


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> Shut up, you ball-less bunch of big girls' blouses. The sooner the new forum starts the better. Poseurs like you mincing iGents can keep out and stick to discussing your recrafted Bostonians and dry-cleaner altered Baronis.


Hey, you really ARE the real Stanley Ketchell, aren't you? And here I thought you'd been dead all these years!


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> Hey, you really ARE the real Stanley Ketchell, aren't you? And here I thought you'd been dead all these years!


Cryogenics was a lot more advanced than folk thought. I've been back a few years now.The extra el was to confuse that dolt Walter Dipley. I should never have turned my back on that nag- beating sneak after I found out he didn't wear Crabass and Melley shirts like all the boys.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

^I wonder how many forumites have any idea what the hell we're talking about!


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> ^I wonder how many forumites have any idea what the hell we're talking about!


I do now thanks to the wonders of Wikipedia!

The things I learn from this forum eh!:icon_smile_big:

Chris.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> ^I wonder how many forumites have any idea what the hell we're talking about!


I'm not sure. Probably a fair few. But what a lot of people don't know is that I was a bespoke man way back then. I would have got into this new forum as easy as getting my teeth knocked out by Jack Johnson.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

DocHolliday said:


> What does it say about the state of a men's clothing forum when the powers-that-be decide a discussion of bespoke clothing can be had only in isolation from that forum?


Yes, Doc, but I wonder if it is the powers-that-be deciding this, or simply responding, as was the case with the "British Influence" forum, to a well-put case? The reference to "Andy's* permission" in the introduction to the forum suggests to me the latter.

*peace be upon him


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

mafoofan said:


> That's not RJman. That's his ghostly residue. You see, whenever a member stops frequenting AAAC, he leaves behind echoes and ripples of his cyber-self. You're hearing RJman circa 2006, which is no substitute for RJman now-and-not-here. Ironically, it's RJman who understands this principle the best. Ask him about the Transformers episode, "Starscream's Ghost."


Foo, you've just gone way, WAY up in my estimation. :icon_smile_big: :aportnoy:


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Anthony Jordan said:


> Yes, Doc, but I wonder if it is the powers-that-be deciding this, or simply responding, as was the case with the "British Influence" forum, to a well-put case? The reference to "Andy's* permission" in the introduction to the forum suggests to me the latter.
> 
> *peace be upon him


I suppose I find it depressing that such a case needed to be made -- or could be made -- at all. Once we had interesting discussions of bespoke that existed happily alongside threads about first suits and AEs. SF still does. I just wonder how things deteriorated so much that we require a striated society.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> I'm not sure. Probably a fair few. But what a lot of people don't know is that I was a bespoke man way back then. I would have got into this new forum as easy as getting my teeth knocked out by Jack Johnson.


Mr. Ketchell, did you have the kind of muscular build that made bespoke necessary (off-the-rack would not fit well?)

Sorry to hear about the teeth. OW. You are a braver man than I. I would have lasted mere seconds in a boxing event.

Edited to add:

Yikes!!! Can we say hook, line and sinker???? And Mr. Ketchel was from Grand Rapids. Er - - - - - - - - -


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

DocHolliday said:


> I suppose I find it depressing that such a case needed to be made -- or could be made -- at all. Once we had interesting discussions of bespoke that existed happily alongside threads about first suits and AEs. SF still does. I just wonder how things deteriorated so much that we require a striated society.


Indeed. _Inter alia_, I must declare an interest here as I will not be eligible to post in the new forum nor am I likely to be so in the foreseeable future. I suppose a lot depends upon how the moderation of the bespoke forum and that of the main forum interplays; for example (a question which I hope one of the Mods will be able to answer) - if a post about bespoke tailoring is made in the main forum, will it be automatically "kicked upstairs" into the bespoke forum or allowed to remain and develop where it is?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Anthony Jordan said:


> Indeed. _Inter alia_, I must declare an interest here as I will not be eligible to post in the new forum nor am I likely to be so in the foreseeable future. I suppose a lot depends upon how the moderation of the bespoke forum and that of the main forum interplays; for example (a question which I hope one of the Mods will be able to answer) - if a post about bespoke tailoring is made in the main forum, will it be automatically "kicked upstairs" into the bespoke forum or allowed to remain and develop where it is?


You make very good points, there are going to be, what for a lack of a better term, I will call* entertaining* issues. But wouldn't a thread begun elsewhere be ineligible for inclusion, unless it was begun by someone who has posting privileges on the new forum? And even if it was, what would happen to posts on that thread that were made by others who didn't? Would they automatically be deleted?


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

Flanderian said:


> You make very good points, there are going to be, what for a lack of a better term, I will call* entertaining* issues. But wouldn't a thread begun elsewhere be ineligible for inclusion, unless it was begun by someone who has posting privileges on the new forum? And even if it was, what would happen to posts on that thread that were made by others who didn't? Would they automatically be deleted?


From my observations of other fora which have strict boundaries regarding topics/sub-fora, it should be possible to manage it, possibly by something as simple as cutting and pasting the comments into either a new thread in the bespoke forum opened by the Moderator or a suitable existing thread. In this event, I would expect that the posts by members without posting privileges would remain, if only for purposes of sense, but could simply not be added to by those members. It's not a situation I would like.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

I haven't read the entire thread but I echo what others have said in the first few pages.
I welcome the idea of a bespoke clothing forum but not one with such a pompous and elitist attitude, and why is the administrator anonymous?
Hiding something I presume.

As has already been pointed out the tailors in question won't give out their clients names anyway.
I qualify for this forum but wouldn't go near it in it's current format.
I also have my doubts about whether the moderator really knows what bespoke is after this comment:



> *Bespoke Clothing*
> From the renowned shirts of Charvet, Matuozzo, and Kabbaz to the rare bespoke suits of Oxxford, Rubinacci, and Zegna.


Do Zegna do bespoke suits? I'm pretty sure Oxxford don't, and where is Savile Row on that list? Surely any bespoke forum should mention SR tailors on that list. It's where it all started.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

I do believe Zegna does Bespoke (something that is not widely known) but to my knowledge Oxxxford does not, in the strictest sense.



Bonhamesque said:


> I haven't read the entire thread but I echo what others have said in the first few pages.
> I welcome the idea of a bespoke clothing forum but not one with such a pompous and elitist attitude, and why is the administrator anonymous?
> Hiding something I presume.
> 
> ...


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Does anybody know when this forum is going to be operational? Has anybody been approved yet?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

David Reeves said:


> Does anybody know when this forum is going to be operational? Has anybody been approved yet?


Sorry, David, you can't quality simply because you *are* a bespoke tailor, you must be an Oxxford customer! :icon_smile_big:

If any of this is to be believed, there's a 30 day vetting process for applicants that I don't think could have yet run its course.


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

> large initial flood of applicants.................


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

I am eagerly awaiting the large initial flood of knowlegeable posts.


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## bigchris1313 (Apr 16, 2009)

David Reeves said:


> Does anybody know when this forum is going to be operational? Has anybody been approved yet?


Everything that has transpired has done so according to Orsini's design. Your friends, here in this thread, are walking into a trap, as are those forumites who applied for membership to the Bespoke subforum. It was Orsini who allowed the candidates to access the requirements of the membership application. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of his most aggressive mods awaits them. Oh, I'm afraid the subforum will be quite operational when your friends arrive.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Looks like I got Aproved as an Artisan. 

.....would like to be first to post but my mind is Blank.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

David Reeves said:


> Looks like I got Aproved as an Artisan.


*Booo . . ! Traitor! :icon_smile_big:*


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

David Reeves said:


> Looks like I got Aproved as an Artisan.
> 
> .....would like to be first to post but my mind is Blank.


Who're you going to talk to?

There's no-one else in there. :icon_smile_big:


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## mack11211 (Oct 14, 2004)

David Reeves said:


> Looks like I got Aproved as an Artisan.
> 
> .....would like to be first to post but my mind is Blank.


Did you get to find out the identity of the admin?


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

mack11211 said:


> Did you get to find out the identity of the admin?


No. I just noticed the lock on the section had been removed.

There doesn't seem to be anybody there except me though!


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

David Reeves said:


> No. I just noticed the lock on the section had been removed.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be anybody there except me though!


Probably got a list of bespoke tailors to call back, after they put the phone down on him. He would not need to verify who you are and what you do, so you were an easy application to approve.


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## cmacey (May 3, 2009)

Well for a guy who will always be "outside looking in" - I'll never make enough to be a customer, I'll enjoy the discussions, should any ever occur.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

ToryBoy said:


> Probably got a list of bespoke tailors to call back, after they put the phone down on him. He would not need to verify who you are and what you do, so you were an easy application to approve.


Nobodys called me to ask about clients either. I know a few of mine who have signed up to be "aproved". I won't disclose who they are without there permission though.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Well, now that there is a forum for those who currently are ready, willing and able to plunk down large amounts of hard cash, I think there needs to be another forum for impecunious dandies. It could be called - *The Untouchables*!

"Trust not," warned Carlyle, "the heart of that man for whom old clothes are not venerable."


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

bigchris1313 said:


> Everything that has transpired has done so according to Orsini's design. Your friends, here in this thread, are walking into a trap, as are those forumites who applied for membership to the Bespoke subforum. It was Orsini who allowed the candidates to access the requirements of the membership application. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of his most aggressive mods awaits them. Oh, I'm afraid the subforum will be quite operational when your friends arrive.


Something tells me you tell a good ghost story around the old campfire, on a dark and blustery night!


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

David Reeves said:


> Looks like I got Aproved as an Artisan.
> 
> .....would like to be first to post but my mind is Blank.


Well, that makes you quite the rare bird. So, why did you join? What discussions do you hope to have there that you can't have on the main forum? What is it about other bespoke-oriented forums that made the new subforum here attractive to you?


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

If I wasn't in the business I would still enjoy and take part in this forum. But since I Amin the business to an extent this forum is useful in creating exposure and contacts with others in the trade and potential clients. For what it's worth I think this forum should be open to all but in my opinion I couldn't afford not to be in it especially if the other "Artisans" were.

I am a member of SF and LL already.



mafoofan said:


> Well, that makes you quite the rare bird. So, why did you join? What discussions do you hope to have there that you can't have on the main forum? What is it about other bespoke-oriented forums that made the new subforum here attractive to you?


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

David Reeves said:


> For what it's worth I think this forum should be open to all but in my opinion I couldn't afford not to be in it especially if the other "Artisans" were.


For those who want to participate in AAACBC discussions by proxy, feel free to come here:
https://www.stylefoum.net/showthread.php?t=1256. It's not the same as the real thing, I know. But something's better than nothing!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*This May Become Part of the Schtick...*



bigchris1313 said:


> Everything that has transpired has done so according to *Orsini's design*. Your friends, here in this thread, are walking into a trap, as are those forumites who applied for membership to the Bespoke subforum. It was *Orsini* who allowed the candidates to access the requirements of the membership application. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of his most aggressive mods awaits them. Oh, I'm afraid the subforum will be quite operational when your friends arrive.


*The Orsini* was only joking and has no idea what might be the motivation behind the establishment of the new forum. From *Orsini's* point of view, any problem that management may have with "riffraff" could have been easily handled by banning those elements management may have find offensive.

However, *Orsini* finds the phrase *"Orsini's Design"*...interesting...


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

I've been away for a few days, and upon seeing the new Bespoke Forum, I had some of the thoughts that were put down in writing in the first couple pages of this thread.

Full Disclosure: I have had two MTM sportcoats made (one Zegna, one Hickey-Freeman). The H-F coat has a label that says "Hickey Freeman Bespoke," but as it was done in 2000 it wouldn't qualify anyway.

I certainly understand the desire to keep people out who are going to make snarky comments based on the fact that some people both desire and can afford bespoke clothing, and so have it done. I personally wouldn't want this new forum to be cluttered with comments like "do you realize how many starving kids Sally Struthers could feed with what you spent on your stupid waistcoat?"

It's one thing to admit only those who have a legitimate interest in the topic. But it's quite another to be required to supply references from tailors. Perhaps the Moderator should require a photo of the prospective member, holding a bespoke garment so that the label indicating the client's name is legible, along with a copy of today's _New York Times_ to prove that this was done recently.

This new forum will not inspire my interest, particularly if it becomes a) self-congratulatory nonsense or b) obnoxiously detail-oriented.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Miket61 said:


> holding a bespoke garment so that the label indicating the client's name is legible.


My tailor only ever put the mercer's label in (I.e., Scabal, etc.) or sometimes none at all if it was an end of mill run from a bolt in his shop.

Ah, but that was many years ago, when the world was still young and bright. 

But your point is well taken.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Miket61 said:


> I personally wouldn't want this new forum to be cluttered with comments like "do you realize how many starving kids Sally Struthers could feed with what you spent on your stupid waistcoat?"


But has that really been a problem in the past? I can't recall anyone ever being critical of others for choosing to go this route. Most of us have some overly expensive addiction, whether it is clothing or something else.

Personally I wish I had all the money back that I spent supporting Harley-Davidsons over the years, but we all have our vices that others don't understand. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

David Reeves said:


> Nobodys called me to ask about clients either. I know a few of mine who have signed up to be "aproved". I won't disclose who they are without there permission though.


Pete Doherty?


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> But has that really been a problem in the past?


Not that I'm aware of. But Sally slips me a few bucks when I get her name published. 

Seriously, we tend to have more people who criticize choices that are too economical, like the flaming harpies who come out when someone mentions Joseph A. Bank.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

"Flaming harpy," eh? I can be down with that.


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