# Hierarchy of Quality?



## La Fin du Monde (Jun 4, 2009)

Does this forum have a document that outlines the hierarchy of quality for specific garments? Since I have joined this forum, I have read Andy's encyclopedia which gave wonderful recommendations and rules to follow. What I am looking for now is similar recommendations for actual vendors. For example, I would like to purchase my first OTR 'quality' sport coat. The forum is awash is recommendations and opinions, which I am quite thankful for, but can be quite confusing. I would like to narrow my options but I am unsure how to do that. I know much of this depends on my budget, location, and intended use of the garment. What I would like to be able to do is compare my possible selections against a hierarchy of quality to help make the best selection. Does such a document/thread exist?

Regards,
LFdM


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

La Fin du Monde said:


> Does such a document/thread exist?


If it does, I've never happened upon it. While what you're seeking is both logical and practical, it would in reality be both subjective and inaccurate. One man's quality and style is another man's trendy junk. Add to that the constant state of flux of brand names, manufacturers, jobbers, and such a list would be both inaccurate and obsolete as it was being written. Of course, you can find authors of books who make their living, at least in part, on the basis that such a list is possible. Men, especially young men, often want absolute rules and certainty. The honest answer is that there is little of either in the sartorial realm.


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

This may be heresy, but, IMHO, quality alone doesn't assure sartorial splendor. There are many quality makers out there as you've learned from AAAC. Try various makers' suits on until you find the one that works best for you. If you're unsure, get someone whose taste you trust to accompany you. That person should be a really good friend with lots of patience.

Once you find the brand that suits your style, get a great tailor.

A good suit in a befitting cut and expertly tailored is a true thing of beauty and a joy forever - or at least several years.

Last piece of advise, stay away from fashion eccentricities. You'll have a more "timeless" look.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

The only thing I've seen along these lines is the shoe pyramid, linked to on the home page.

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/Tutorials/JCuseyOnShoes.htm


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

This is what I have gathered from tenure as a member of the AAAC forum:

1st Tier: In no particular order
Oxxford
Kiton
Brioni
Ermenegildo Zegna Couture
Cesare Attolini
Isaia Enrico
Luciano Barbera

2nd Tier:
Ermenegildo Zegna
Barba Napoli
Isaia mainline and Gianluca
Belvest
Borrelli
D'Avenza
Saint Andrews
Ralph Lauren Purple Label
Battistoni
Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored
Ravazzolo

3rd Tier:
Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
Canali
Caruso
Corneliani
Ralph Lauren Blue and Black Label
Hickey Freeman
Martin Greenfield
Paul Stuart
Hugo Boss Selection
Alfred Dunhill

4th Tier:
Southwick
HSM Gold Trumpeter
Samuelsohn
H. Freeman
Brooks Brothers 1818
Giorgio Armani Black Label
J. Press Pressidential
S. Cohen

Feel free to add any more to the list or address any changes in rankings :icon_smile_big:


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

thefancyman said:


> This is what I have gathered from tenure as a member of the AAAC forum:
> 
> 1st Tier: In no particular order
> Oxxford
> ...


Nice try! :icon_smile_big: But you illustrate my point. For example, Paul Stuart most often *is* Samuelsohn.


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

^

I don't completely agree with _everything_ on that list but generally its decent. Of course, this will always be a subjective discussion so any sort of "final word" is neigh impossible...


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## Dr. NS (Aug 25, 2009)

Maybe I'm missing something, but aren't we missing a lot of the english tailors?


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

The Louche said:


> ^
> 
> I don't completely agree with _everything_ on that list but generally its decent. Of course, this will always be a subjective discussion so any sort of "final word" is neigh impossible...


Yeah, my list is subjective to mine and other's opinions but I thought I would take up the challenge :icon_smile_wink:.



Dr. NS said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but aren't we missing a lot of the english tailors?


I only included makers and merchants of RTW suits.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

It's not really possible to do what you're suggesting in an accurate way. Manufacturers vary in their quality from one year to another and sometimes from one item to another. One manufacturer might be responsible for supplying 20 different retailers, either under private label or their own, and might use 20 different standards. Most makers can dial it up or down in construction quality, and _all_ can buy better or worse raw materials (fabric).

Fancyman's* post isn't terrible, though, and might be useful as a rough outline and starting point, assuming he's talking about tailored clothing. If he's talking shirts, I think Borrelli is as good as any OTR. If he's talking ties, accessories, etc., I'd move Paul Stuart up a notch.

* My post erroneously attributed the list to Flanderian.


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## La Fin du Monde (Jun 4, 2009)

thefancyman said:


> This is what I have gathered from tenure as a member of the AAAC forum:
> 
> 1st Tier: In no particular order
> Oxxford
> ...


Thanks!

This is exactly what I was looking for! I understand that much is subjective but at least it's a start. I am familiar with many of these manufacturers but it's hard to make sense of how they all fit together. I am sure this thread could start a debate that would rival the 3/2 roll threads but that is not my goal. I think it would be a great service to the forum members to create this _general_ list. Everyone may debate some issue but at least it's a start; and for that I am quite thankful.


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## La Fin du Monde (Jun 4, 2009)

CuffDaddy said:


> It's not really possible to do what you're suggesting in an accurate way. Manufacturers vary in their quality from one year to another and sometimes from one item to another. One manufacturer might be responsible for supplying 20 different retailers, either under private label or their own, and might use 20 different standards. Most makers can dial it up or down in construction quality, and _all_ can buy better or worse raw materials (fabric).
> 
> Flanderian's post isn't terrible, though, and might be useful as a rough outline and starting point, assuming he's talking about tailored clothing. If he's talking shirts, I think Borrelli is as good as any OTR. If he's talking ties, accessories, etc., I'd move Paul Stuart up a notch.


There is do doubt that you are correct; yet everyone has to create their own personal inventory of these changes and variations. So why not work together? I think it would be quite easy to do a seasonal or quarterly update - *specifically for our own personal use* (I don't want to upset any vendors) *based upon standard garments* (OTR Blue Blazer, OTR Suits, OTR Shirts, etc. etc.) 

Why not share the load in stead of reinventing the wheel?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

CuffDaddy said:


> Flanderian's post isn't terrible, though, and might be useful as a rough outline and starting point, assuming he's talking about tailored clothing.


Thank you! But I think you may be mistaken, Flanderian's post *is* the one that's terrible, and adds nothing to the dialog!


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## La Fin du Monde (Jun 4, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> If it does, I've never happened upon it. While what you're seeking is both logical and practical, it would in reality be both subjective and inaccurate. One man's quality and style is another man's trendy junk. Add to that the constant state of flux of brand names, manufacturers, jobbers, and such a list would be both inaccurate and obsolete as it was being written. Of course, you can find authors of books who make their living, at least in part, on the basis that such a list is possible. Men, especially young men, often want absolute rules and certainty. The honest answer is that there is little of either in the sartorial realm.


Dearest Uncle Flanderian,

I am well aware of this; hence my query. I know there are no absolutes or certainty since so much depends on the man, his style, and the clothing. I completely agree with your synopsis and I understand that every man must form his own identity. 

This forum acts as a beacon allowing us to navigate the ebb and flow of fashion and tradition so that each of us can be better informed and develop/refine their personal sense of taste. Yet we are not lost at sea; decisions are made, recommendations passed on and sartorial wisdom is gained. As I stated above, can we not work together to help navigate these waters? 

Nephew LFdM


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

*Adding to the white noise...*

Luciano Barbera is too high on that list, IMHO.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

La Fin du Monde said:


> Dearest Uncle Flanderian,


Thats Grandpa to you, son!


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

La Fin du Monde said:


> This forum acts as a beacon allowing us to navigate the ebb and flow of fashion and tradition so that each of us can be better informed and develop/refine their personal sense of taste. Yet we are not lost at sea; decisions are made, recommendations passed on and sartorial wisdom is gained. As I stated above, can we not work together to help navigate these waters?


Are you suggesting sort of an AAAC-driven clothing equivalent of the Bordeaux classification of 1855?


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## S. Able (Mar 26, 2007)

IMHO, move Sammy up a tier and Zegna down a tier and then throw the list out the window.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

CuffDaddy said:


> Are you suggesting sort of an AAAC-driven clothing equivalent of the Bordeaux classification of 1855?


Hmph. If I recall, that classification was based solely on price.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

That list is _useless_. I doubt any list would be much better, but it certainly wouldn't lump entire brands in together. I've seen plenty of garments from some of the so-called top tier I wouldn't put in my wardrobe.

What this forum is about (or should be) is learning what goes into making a good suit, particularly for the person purchasing it.

Attempts to rank brands are just silly.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> Hmph. If I recall, that classification was based solely on price.


I am under the impression that price was a significant component, but not the sole criterion. But this is, like nearly everything else in the world, _not_ an area of expertise for me, and I could be wrong.


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Considering OP's sobriquet, why bother.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

*Off Scale?*

Okay, love the ranking!

How many more tiers below the four before we see Ralph Lauren Green Label (AKA Lauren by Ralph Lauren), Jos. A. Bank (Traveler Tailored, Platinum, Signature Gold, Joseph, Signature, Executive, Traveler, Business Express), The Wizard of Aahs (Daniele, Giorgio), etc.?!


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

Pr B said:


> Okay, love the ranking!
> 
> How many more tiers below the four before we see Ralph Lauren Green Label (AKA Lauren by Ralph Lauren), Jos. A. Bank (Traveler Tailored, Platinum, Signature Gold, Joseph, Signature, Executive, Traveler, Business Express), The Wizard of Aahs (Daniele, Giorgio), etc.?!


Thanks :icon_smile:. I would image Jeff's suits at the Wizard would be 4th or 5th, JAB Sig Gold 5th and the rest I'm not sure I want to include.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

*Off the Map Tiers*

Fascinating. So you'd put Wizard of Aahs in Tier 4 or 5, Jos. A. Bank's Signature Gold in Tier 5. Any of the other JAB collections and Lauren by RL (AKA Green) below Tier 5?

Wow, while this is beyond my pay grade, my reaction as an occasional suit wearer would put RL Green above JAB, and Wizard in the middle of the pack of the JAB collections. So I'd get it completely backwards. Shows to go ya' the power of marketing!

Others out there! How does that jive with you?


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

Pr B said:


> Fascinating. So you'd put Wizard of Aahs in Tier 4 or 5, Jos. A. Bank's Signature Gold in Tier 5. Any of the other JAB collections and Lauren by RL (AKA Green) below Tier 5?
> 
> Wow, while this is beyond my pay grade, my reaction as an occasional suit wearer would put RL Green above JAB, and Wizard in the middle of the pack of the JAB collections. So I'd get it completely backwards. Shows to go ya' the power of marketing!
> 
> Others out there! How does that jive with you?


Well I placed JAB Sig. Gold and Wizards of Aahs favorably because they are half or fully-canvassed while the others are fused. Also, the wool used in Wizard of Aahs suits are fine quality Italian woven in super 100s-150s.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

I think this list can be useful especially to men new to the sartorial kingdom. There are hundreds of brand names out there on suits (well almost) and the newbie can see from the list that Palm Beach, Richmond Bros, Haggar and Gant aren't on it. It does provide a starting point of sorts, and helps narrow down the field. Also, the OP stated he wanted a ranking of quality, not style or issues more subjective. I agree that manufacturers can provide various levels of quality to private labels. Case in point would be Geives and Hawke RTW, made by Hickey, I believe. I don't think Norman Hilton is on there either, and it is now being made again I believe, after some years absence from the marketplace. The old ones got high praise from tailors on this board and we can hope the new ones meet those standards, and we may get input from someone who has a new one. Other names..Chipp, Ben Silver,Sulka,Burberry. I realize some may be out of current production and maybe the list could asterisk and footnote those, since there are secondary markets for suits and sport coats no longer being made, but were quality garments. My 2 cents.


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## Barcelona (Aug 13, 2009)

thefancyman said:


> This is what I have gathered from tenure as a member of the AAAC forum:
> 
> 1st Tier: In no particular order
> Oxxford
> ...


Nice list! Having owned both though, I would place Canali above Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece when it comes to suits.


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

Barcelona said:


> Nice list! Having owned both though, I would place Canali above Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece when it comes to suits.


I guess I should have specified but they are not ranked individually only by the tiers. Thanks.


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

The first thing is that you have to have good taste in yourself. It does not matter what brands there are or even manufacturers. All these may not be the thing which is appropriate for your wardrobe.

It is true that there are items which are of better construction and materials than others, but that is not easily determined by manufacturer or label. One should consider the general matters of materials and construction and the particular matter of fabric and cut, style, and structure. The matter of manufacturer and brand is the least of your considerations when confronting a purchase.

One may purchase a very fine label of perfectly horrible cut and design in just the wrong fabric and pattern for any amount of money.

The first thing is to have good taste. The second is fit. The third is cut or drape or shape, which is somewhat a matter of fashion and returns us to the the first which is taste. Classic structure and pattern and color is classic for a good reason. 

What constitutes good taste is subjective and possibly unknowable.

Nice try though.

rudy


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Purple Label offers shoes by Edward Green. They also use the finest Italian makers (not Kiton or Brioni) for their garments. The brand should be viewed merely as an alternative to traditional brands (Kiton and Brioni). It is simply the best (readymade), and should be in the top tier IMO.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

As I was reading the original post I was thinking "oh here we go!" but actually the list supplied isn't bad, yes people might like to fiddle with it and promote a favorite at the expense of one that might have caused a bad experience but I would just like to add this tip for the original poster:

Buy the quality level you can both afford and desire, if its important to you then consider even waiting a bit to save up (to move "up") but at the end of the day make sure the FIT IS PERFECT.

Half of the impact of a decent jacket is how it looks on your specific body shape. Have it exactingly alterations tailored until you like the shape and sleeve length etc. Know what can and cant be changed about it (like dont imagine they can widen the shoulders or narrow them for that matter). Get the style that compliments your shape and personality so that the CUT looks good on you. The lapels, the length, the shoulders, the pockets, the seam joinery, the drop, the waist shape, the collar, everything is in play with the cut of the jacket.

Its an equation of fit,cut,material and construction and even the equation can be argued here!

Let us know how it turns out...


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## cglex (Oct 23, 2006)

The OP will be misguided looking at various lists of quality, etc. First, find a cut that you look good in and find a shop with good tailors to fit it. In terms of quality, there are two dimensions: 1) fit 2) construction. Fit is really OTR idiot tailor, OTR good tailor, MTM with a good fitter, bespoke. Quality is really fused, half canvas/fused (a/k/a Southwick and BB 1818) fully canvased and machine made, then fully canvased hand made, particularly around the lapels, neck, etc. In my City, decent bespoke can be had for $2,000 to $2,500 so most high end OTR suits and many mid-priced MTM suits make no economic sense what so ever.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

*Yeah, but....*

For someone who is beginning, a rough guide is helpful. E.g., a wise father or mentor who can say, "no, you may think R is better than W, but no."

There are a lot of brands out there. A lot. Some have better marketing than others.

I, for one, was sure Lauren by RL was significantly better than Wizard of Aahs. Just look at the name recognition! And Wizard is available only (at least here) via eBay. eBay! And the "silly" name. But no.

Such a listing is a good quick whack, a quick and dirty. From there, I can quickly cull down which brands to consider. And--more importantly--which brands are overhyped.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

"Lauren" does not actually have any connexion with RL besides the name.

I would bump Black Label and Caruso up a tier and Blue label down a tier.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

*Whoa! LRL?!*

Whoa! You mean Lauren by Ralph Lauren, sometimes known as Ralph Lauren Green Label, is not really Ralph Lauren? But is more the RL name being "rented out"?

See, now I didn't know that. And would not have if not for this.

Sad. LRL is one of the few recognizable labels in the Big and Tall market.

Now I learn it really isn't RL. Sigh.


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## Sir Walter (Jun 23, 2007)

I was uder the impression that Hugo Boss was a fused garment. If my impressions are correct I do not agree that they should be placed in the 3rd tier above many suit vendors that produce half canvass garments. I would also add that Samuelsohn is full canvassed and on par with Hickey Freeman and Canali and Corneliani, which is not listed.


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

Sir Walter said:


> I was uder the impression that Hugo Boss was a fused garment. If my impressions are correct I do not agree that they should be placed in the 3rd tier above many suit vendors that produce half canvass garments. I would also add that Samuelsohn is full canvassed and on par with Hickey Freeman and Canali and Corneliani, which is not listed.


Hugo Boss Selection is different than Hugo Boss Black. Black is fused and machine-made. Selection is fully canvassed with hand basted lapels and shoulders with small amounts of hand-tailoring in the collar and arm holes.


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

I've addressed some issues in the first list and made some changes.

1st Tier: In no particular order
Oxxford
Kiton
Brioni
Ermenegildo Zegna Couture
Cesare Attolini
Isaia Enrico
Luciano Barbera
La Veda Sartoria Napoletan

2nd Tier:
Ermenegildo Zegna
Barba Napoli
Isaia Napoli and Gianluca
Belvest
Borrelli
D'Avenza
Saint Andrews
Ralph Lauren Purple Label
Cantarelli
Castangia
Battistoni
Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored
Ravazzolo
Raffaele Caruso Sartoria Parma

3rd Tier:
Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
Canali
Raffaele Caruso
Corneliani
Ralph Lauren Black Label
Hickey Freeman
Martin Greenfield
Paul Stuart
Samuelsohn
Hugo Boss Selection
Alfred Dunhill

4th Tier:
Southwick
HSM Gold Trumpeter
H. Freeman 
Brooks Brothers 1818
Ralph Lauren Blue Label
Giorgio Armani Black Label
Vestimenta
J. Press Pressidential
S. Cohen


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

That's pretty good, though I'd move Caruso/RLBL up a tier. Otherwise I generally agree.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Lists like this are very useful for those of us who browse thrift stores when our wive drag us in and who wouldn't recognise some of the top end names from personal experience. I'm printing out the list for the hospital thrift shop where my wife volunteers to hang below my note that says "DON'T PRICE OXXFORD SUITS AND ALDEN SHOES AT $5."


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## ExpertiseInNone (Nov 5, 2008)

Now, when Paul Stuart is listed in the "3rd Tier" does that also include their Phineas Cole collection? I never personally actually bought a suit from them because I never actually got around to shopping at a Paul Stuarts, but I always seem to fall in love with the few suits when I shop around for their ties and shirts on-line.

Also, I always wondered about the suits made by designer names, but were never actually known for their suiting. I used to have a boss who wore these very trendy suits from Dolce and Gobana, Armani, and I think Versace. Are those suits just fused suits with very pretty labels sown on the inside, or are they full canvassed suits with proper construction and fabrics?


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

*Over at our sister forum...*

Stylefurum had a . I mainly remember that some wiseguy slipped Steve Harvey into it :icon_jokercolor:


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## La Fin du Monde (Jun 4, 2009)

chatsworth osborne jr. said:


> Stylefurum had a . I mainly remember that some wiseguy slipped Steve Harvey into it :icon_jokercolor:


Below is their current list.

I can understand how this may seem like a nightmare to some folks but I think the juice is worth the squeeze, if for consideration/comparison only.

Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. This category should be kept to only a few items)
- Kiton
- Oxxford
- Brioni
- Cesare Attolini Napoli (after seen and tried it for the first time, indeed one of the best)
- Luigi Borrelli and Luxury Vintage line
- RLPL (not suit maker, a designer brand)
- Luciano Barbera Collezioni Sartoriale
- St Andrew
- D'Avenza

Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category).
*- *Belvest
- Corneliani Linea Sartoria
- Canali Milano
- Sartoria Partenopea
- Sartoria Attolini Napoli
- Isaia
- (most of Raffaelle Caruso) eg. Sartoria Parma
- Pal Zileri Sartoriale (I think there is another line higher than Sartoriale, the custom made one, IIRC "Abito Privato", excellent quality)
- Ravazzolo
- Zegna Couture
- Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece

Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits).
- Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
- Hickey Freeman Mainline
- Corneliani
- Canali
- K by Canali
- Ermenegildo Zegna
- Samuelsohn
- Paul Smith Mainline (not a suit maker, designer brand - fully canvassed)
- RLBL (not a suit maker, designer brand - fully canvassed)
- Faconnable Tailleur (also designer brand)
- Cantarelli Tailor

Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable).
- Cantarelli
- Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
- Brooks Brothers 1818 (half canvassed)
- Paul Smith London (not a suit maker, designer brand - half canvassed)
- H. Freemann
- Hickey Freeman LTD (Half Canvas)
- hickey

Mediocre
[*] (Suits that are mediocre)
- Z-Zegna (sometimes satisfactory sometimes mediocre)
- Hugo Boss
- Marco Valentino (half canvas) - surprising but I found the VFM is great
- Joseph Abboud
- J. Press


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## ExpertiseInNone (Nov 5, 2008)

Is the Blue Label Ralph Lauren suit really that low quality that is does not even make the list? 

A third of my suits are that line, so this makes me really wonder how well I spent my money.


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## afuturestrader (Oct 6, 2009)

ExpertiseInNone said:


> Is the Blue Label Ralph Lauren suit really that low quality that is does not even make the list?
> 
> A third of my suits are that line, so this makes me really wonder how well I spent my money.


RLBL = Ralph Lauren Blue Label is listed in the Good category so by this list you spent it well.


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## 82-Greg (Apr 13, 2008)

cglex said:


> The OP will be misguided looking at various lists of quality, etc. First, find a cut that you look good in and find a shop with good tailors to fit it. In terms of quality, there are two dimensions: 1) fit 2) construction. Fit is really OTR idiot tailor, OTR good tailor, MTM with a good fitter, bespoke. Quality is really fused, half canvas/fused (a/k/a Southwick and BB 1818) fully canvased and machine made, then fully canvased hand made, particularly around the lapels, neck, etc. In my City, decent bespoke can be had for $2,000 to $2,500 so most high end OTR suits and many mid-priced MTM suits make no economic sense what so ever.


Outstanding points. Fit is, IMHO, far more important than construction details. Basically there are four major quality tiers for construction (cited above) and a world of difference between an entry at the bottom of the tier and the top of the tier. In many cases tiers can overlap--based on construction details. The thing most people focus on--the cloth--can be the same in all four tiers.

If you're looking for a suit, first find the tailor who will ensure it fits and be sure to save enough of your suit acquisition budget to get it properly tailored.


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

afuturestrader said:


> RLBL = Ralph Lauren Blue Label is listed in the Good category so by this list you spent it well.


I think who ever assembled that list meant Black Label not Blue Label because Blue is only half-canvassed and I believe Black is full-canvassed. However, Blue Label suits are very nice quality in my opinion and a good suit for the money. The suits are made in Italy by Corneliani and are fully lined in Bemberg. The wool is a fine Italian woven I think a super 120s or 100s.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

afuturestrader said:


> RLBL = Ralph Lauren Blue Label is listed in the Good category so by this list you spent it well.


RLBL is Ralph Lauren Black Label, and it should really be in the 'Very Good' category instead. Blue Label is made by Corneliani, which is in the 'Good' category.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Polo Ralph Lauren (a.k.a. Blue Label) is good, even the non-European produced stuff.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

Only 3 comments on the whole thread about the quality of the cloth?

It needs to be well fitting and of a quality of cloth suitable for its use. In that context the obsession with super cloths is misplaced. Too often they are a device whereby an expensive suit wears out extremely quickly. For a suit worn regularly at work a super cloth will be limp and flaccid before the end of the day and will not look or drape as well as a non-super, heavier cloth.

I have very little knowledge of most of the labels here and I'm not arguing with the order of listing. I just think it is irrelevant. 
1. Go into the shop and try it on. If it doesn't fit, discard it. 
2. If it fits, ask the salesperson for details of the cloth and how well it will stand up to what you want it to do. 
3. If s/he can't answer, ask to see someone else. If no one can answer, leave (would you buy a car from someone who couldn't tell you if it was petrol or diesel and the difference between the two?). If the fit and the cloth is right then you are almost there. 
4. Then tell the salesperson how often you will use the dry cleaners - the difference between fused and canvassed for most RTW garments is irrelevant unless you are dry cleaning very regularly because dry cleaning stresses the fusing. If you _are _going to dry clean regularly you need to know whether the garment is fused. Repeat steps 2 and 3 as appropriate.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks very much for posting this. It was very helpful.

I am wondering why people on the forums dislike the Boss suits so much? I think they're pretty well made and was pleasantly surprised to discover mine appear to be at least half canvas construction. And yet, the Joseph Aboud suits seem to get more favorable reviews, at least on styleforum. That said, the Boss suits have quite large arm holes, and I really wish they were a lot narrower/higher.

Must admit, I have not paid anything close to retail for any of my Boss suits. I can understand the premise that the Boss suits are not worth the $900 sticker price, but the Joseph Abouds are worth the $700 sticker price. However, the Boss fabrics do feel a lot nicer. And they seem to drape better.

Anyway, some enlightenment would help me out here. And I have noticed that the list on this forum classifies the Boss suits in tier 3, so maybe the dislike of Boss is not as widespread here as I might think.


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

Leighton said:


> Thanks very much for posting this. It was very helpful.
> 
> I am wondering why people on the forums dislike the Boss suits so much? I think they're pretty well made and was pleasantly surprised to discover mine appear to be at least half canvas construction. And yet, the Joseph Aboud suits seem to get more favorable reviews, at least on styleforum. That said, the Boss suits have quite large arm holes, and I really wish they were a lot narrower/higher.
> 
> ...


There is a huge difference between Hugo Boss Black Label and Hugo Boss Selection. Here is an earlier statement I wrote on the subject:



thefancyman said:


> The mainline Hugo Boss is complete garbage and not worth the money, unless you can find one at a deep discount. They are fused, cheaply machine made, feature mediocre fabrics and are nothing close to Hugo Boss Selection. Also, the fact that HB contracts three different factories to produce the Selection line of suits does not mean quality control is not up to par. Brooks Brothers utilizes Martin Greenfield in Brooklyn, NY, Isaia in Italy and Samuelsohn in Canada to manufacture suits for their Golden Fleece line.


Also, Joseph Abboud suits (not Joe by Joseph Abboud) are half-canvassed, cut by hand, feature minimal hand work in the lapels and armholes and are manufactured in New Bedford, MA.


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## Tbone (Oct 31, 2009)

Edit: double post


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

Leighton said:


> Thanks very much for posting this. It was very helpful.
> 
> I am wondering why people on the forums dislike the Boss suits so much? I think they're pretty well made and was pleasantly surprised to discover mine appear to be at least half canvas construction. And yet, the Joseph Aboud suits seem to get more favorable reviews, at least on styleforum. That said, the Boss suits have quite large arm holes, and I really wish they were a lot narrower/higher.
> 
> ...


There is a huge difference between Hugo Boss Black Label and Hugo Boss Selection. Here is an earlier statement I wrote on the subject:



thefancyman said:


> The mainline Hugo Boss is complete garbage and not worth the money, unless you can find one at a deep discount. They are fused, cheaply machine made, feature mediocre fabrics and are nothing close to Hugo Boss Selection.





thefancyman said:


> Hugo Boss Selection sport coats and suits are fully canvassed and are made in either Germany, Italy or sometimes Turkey. The suits feature hand-basted lapels and shoulders and feature some minimal hand-tailoring on the collar and in the shoulders.


Also, Joseph Abboud suits (not Joe by Joseph Abboud) are half-canvassed, cut by hand, feature minimal hand work in the lapels and armholes and are manufactured in New Bedford, MA.


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## Tbone (Oct 31, 2009)

Leighton said:


> Thanks very much for posting this. It was very helpful.
> 
> I am wondering why people on the forums dislike the Boss suits so much? I think they're pretty well made and was pleasantly surprised to discover mine appear to be at least half canvas construction. And yet, the Joseph Aboud suits seem to get more favorable reviews, at least on styleforum. That said, the Boss suits have quite large arm holes, and I really wish they were a lot narrower/higher.
> 
> ...


Are you sure they are half canvassed? I was under the impression that Boss only made fused suits.


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## La Fin du Monde (Jun 4, 2009)

Leighton said:


> Thanks very much for posting this. It was very helpful.


Thanks. I know some folks think this is a waste of time but I am glad I tried. I think everyone creates their subjective own personal categories overtime. I never expected nor aspired to create an 'end-all-be-all' list. I just wanted to tap into the collective experience of those who have been at this a lot longer than I. The pitfalls of subjectivity remain but I am thankful for their responses. 

We also do the same thing here over and over again, just in smaller quantities. 
There are numerous posts asking for input on items or suggestions. I thought it would be more efficient to try for a comprehensive overview. Frankly, I am tempted to start a similar threads on shirts, cashmere sweaters, ties, and trousers. 

Just learning how much variation there is amongst the quality of construction and materials within labels was worth the effort. I had no idea there was so much fluctuation within one line.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for the responses, I researched the Hugo Boss Selection. I can see the huge difference. Makes perfect sense now.

As for Boss Black Label being half canvassed. I am still new to this, but the Boss Black and J. Aboud felt the same in the top half of the chest piece. So, I could be wrong because I'm not even a knowledgeable amateur at this yet. I'll probably get better at it with time and experience.

Thanks to the forum for teaching me the differences and how to spot them. Of course, maybe I should be cursing the day someone pointed me to the forums because I can foresee the spending of thousands of dollars on stuff I never even knew existed.... (already spent hundreds)


edit: Nevermind. Did the check again and I had a false positive. Fused construction on the Hugo Boss black label.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Upon examining the Boss Selection suit for myself in their store at Fashion Square, I have come to the conclusion that the suit is half canvassed and machine stitched at the lapels. A couple people here and over at SF have weighed in on the Selection being half canvassed. The latest is this post:



I move to drop the Boss Selection to slightly above Joseph Aboud level. Maybe equal to or better than HF Ltd. Probably better because I got a HF Ltd that was fully fused, very annoyed about that. Luckily I paid a song for it.


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

Leighton said:


> Upon examining the Boss Selection suit for myself in their store at Fashion Square, I have come to the conclusion that the suit is half canvassed and machine stitched at the lapels. A couple people here and over at SF have weighed in on the Selection being half canvassed. The latest is this post:
> 
> I move to drop the Boss Selection to slightly above Joseph Aboud level. Maybe equal to or better than HF Ltd. Probably better because I got a HF Ltd that was fully fused, very annoyed about that. Luckily I paid a song for it.


It would appear that only the Hugo Boss Selection Tailored Line is fully canvassed and hand-tailored in Germany. I cannot confirm whether or not the standard HB Selection is only half-canvassed but if it is I would move it to a lower tier. Here is some information on the construction aspects of the HB Tailored Line to clear some things up:


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

That makes perfect sense now. Two tiers of Boss Selection. The stuff you can find in any Boss store and the hand tailored line.

So, the hand tailored line is where it should be, but the regular selection line is half canvassed and machine stitched lapels (I'm sure about that; 90% sure about the half canvassing). Although, it does have pick stitching, probably by machine though.


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## TomK (Nov 18, 2009)

What tier are Stafford and Haggar on???


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks. This was awesome.


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## maltess (Sep 9, 2008)

Hello, what about sport coats of Z Zegna? is this a quality line compared to ermenegildo zegna line?


thanks a lot


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

maltess said:


> Hello, what about sport coats of Z Zegna? is this a quality line compared to ermenegildo zegna line?
> 
> thanks a lot


1 tier difference I think.


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

maltess said:


> Hello, what about sport coats of Z Zegna? is this a quality line compared to ermenegildo zegna line?
> 
> thanks a lot


I believe that Z Zegna, which is a diffusion line of Ermenegildo Zegna, is fused and not made in Italy or Switzerland like the mainline garments.


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## maltess (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks a lot

Whay would be final ranking for Boss selection and hackett? they are not in the last list


Thanks a lot


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

maltess said:


> Thanks a lot
> 
> Whay would be final ranking for Boss selection and hackett? they are not in the last list
> 
> Thanks a lot


The Boss Selection, hand tailored custom made is in tier 3. But the stuff OTR in stores is not the hand tailored version. Do not be fooled.


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## maltess (Sep 9, 2008)

Ok, because I was about to get a regular boss selection sport coat, is this mediocre quality then? any opinions about hackett? they have nice jackets but after reading all this I am pretty reluctant to buy anything that is not worthit


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

maltess said:


> Ok, because I was about to get a regular boss selection sport coat, is this mediocre quality then? any opinions about hackett? they have nice jackets but after reading all this I am pretty reluctant to buy anything that is not worthit


https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=1034894&postcount=59

Have not heard about Hackett. Try styleforum.net if a search here does not pull anything up.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Hackett would need to be split up.

Bespoke - available at Bishopsgate store, cannot comment
Full-canvass - this is MTM from Chester Clothing, only seen it on a manikin = if CC then possibly lower Tier 2
Semi-canvas - this could be made by CC or still by Wensum, quality is good = Tier 3
RTW - decent quality, may have a for-sale-only range at departments which is not good = Tier 3, Tier 4 if they have a for-sale-only range


I do not have any jackets from Hackett; however, from what I have seen, the quality can vary and price can be a good indicator


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## AscotWithShortSleeves (Apr 12, 2009)

ExpertiseInNone said:


> Is the Blue Label Ralph Lauren suit really that low quality that is does not even make the list?
> 
> A third of my suits are that line, so this makes me really wonder how well I spent my money.


Don't sweat it, man. I have a Michael Kors solid blue suit that cost me less than $300 at Saks Off Fifth. I'm sure it's "fused"--oh, the horror!--but it looks great. And I've been hired for two successive jobs in it. It exudes humility, seriousness, and earnestness.

When people on this site obsess over stuff like tailoring construction details, they're getting into things that *no one* outside of a handful of people would ever notice. I do find it interesting and edifying, but I would not let it make me question a purchase I'm otherwise happy with.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Well, this is AAAC. While other people may not notice all the hand stitching in your suit, you do. And thats why we care. Because we care.

As for the full canvassing, if you stand still no one may notice, but if you move the canvas really shines.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Leighton said:


> As for the full canvassing, if you stand still no one may notice, but if you move the canvas really shines.


What about people who:
1. got their suits from James & James 
2. get their suits from Davies & Sons


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## Master-Classter (Jan 22, 2009)

bump it up


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## SamKool (Mar 16, 2011)

i'm glad i found this site! for my 1st post i would like to impart the following regarding this subject, which is influenced from owning a high end boutique many moons ago. well, now i'm a consumer and my hierarchy is heavily based on 2 things:

1. the fabric. i want the finest available for the purpose i intend to wear it. period. you need to know who is actually a) buying (sourcing), and/or b) manufacturing/selling the finest fabrics. (it is more vertical than what i'm describing here, but i don't want to turn this into a trade paper.)

2. the passion for the art of tailoring must be embedded into the culture of the company. quality of skill & craftsmanship are the byproducts of this passion. this naturally steers us towards the elite brands we all know and love.

i also consider this when deciding between bespoke from an individual tailor vs. mtm from an elite brand: does the bespoke tailor have access to the same quality of fabrics as my fave elite brand? in other words, "who bought the highest grade bales from last years auctions?" (again, i don't want to get into the entire vertical process, but i hope i'm getting my point across)

anyhow, that's my short intro to this board. there's a plethora of aspects to discuss about clothing (technical/philosophical/personal taste/marketing) and i'm glad to find this place & talk about them with like minded people. :icon_cheers:


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## FashionRite (Jul 5, 2010)

Just curious how reading of this site would rank Stefano Ricci. I would guess the first category, but I've never owned one of his suits.


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## Joel40R (Dec 27, 2008)

thefancyman said:


> There is a huge difference between Hugo Boss Black Label and Hugo Boss Selection. Here is an earlier statement I wrote on the subject:
> 
> Also, Joseph Abboud suits (not Joe by Joseph Abboud) are half-canvassed, cut by hand, feature minimal hand work in the lapels and armholes and are manufactured in New Bedford, MA.


Yes, this thread is very subjective. As has been pointed out many times here, fit is extremely important when buying clothes. To me it is the most important criteria. Yes, I would like to buy clothes that fit well, are handmade and of the finest quality, but don't have the money. So, I look for fit first, quality and price second. Hence, I found a couple of Joseph Abboud suits on sale at Marshalls. With slight alterations, they fit great. I realize they are not "Tier 1" suits, but for half canvassed garments, I couldn't pass up the bargain. They just seemed to really fit my body style well, especially in the chest and armhole area.


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

Going back to my earlier post, find a maker whose style, drape and fit best suits your needs and taste. Take it to a really good tailor to have the alterations done with all the gear you'll normally be carrying such as shirt watch, wallet, comb, glasses, money, etc. You'll be happy with the results. I've been wearing suits for around 55 years. I have regularly been complimented on my clothing. As I got older and my income -and shape- changed, so did the quality of the suit. In that time, no one has come up to check my labels or whether or not my suit was fused, half fully fully canvassed.

I am absolutely aware of the difference in quality. However the finest OTR suit which is poorly fitted or doesn't suit your figure is going to look like s*** no matter who made it or what it cost.

P.S. I'd stay away from fused if for no other reason than after a few visits to the average cleaner or after getting wet, the lapels and/or the chest are going to "bouble".


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