# Seersucker...Regional differences



## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Around here Easter signals the start of seersucker, this has been covered before I know. But I'm interested to hear when and where folks will wear seersucker, either the full head to toe or separates? Those who mix and match, do you find yourself wearing the trousers more than the coats or the vice versa?
Other than Khaki colored chinos what do you wear your jackets with? You've seen me in crabs and now yellow.
And JB, How's that one suc/wk going?





































The details;
Classic blue seersucker
White ocbd
Red, navy and yellow straight bow. White linen square
Butter yellow chinos
Alligator strap with ss buckle
Pale blue socks
BB Aldens

I'm doing it in the south&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;where and who else is doing this? What would you modify for your region?

Allen


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Nice ensemble, as usual, Allen. :icon_smile:

I think seersucker is a Memorial Day-Labor Day sort of thing in Virginia, but that's just my take on it.

The only reason I don't have a seersucker suit yet is that I am trying to find a Haspel three-button sack jacket paired with flat-front trousers (42R with 36W pants, if anyone knows anything). Your jacket, while sharp-looking, illustrates why I don't want darts in my seersucker.

P.S. - Your pictures keep reminding me that I need to get more adventurous with my socks.

P.P.S - Hey, is that one of your new J. Press bows? I like!


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## Barrister (Nov 2, 2005)

*Doing the full seersucker today in the south...*

I definitely wear my seersucker almost everywhere from Easter to Labor Day here in NC. The one exception so far has been to court. I haven't been brave enough to try that yet. I'm still fairly young (29), and it seems to me you've need to be a little more "seasoned" to pull off the whole seersucker in court thing. I have my blue and white on today with a white OCBD, white linen squre, red, white and blue BB No. 1 repp tie, and weejuns. I also have a tan/white and a gray/white seersucker and I usually wear one to work once or twice a week and usually to church on Sunday, not to mention weddings, graduations, etc.

I have white bucks but I don't wear them that often. I usually prefer the weejuns.

I can't say that I wear them as separates all that often though, usually the full suit.

Just out of curiosity, are the yellow chinos some of the Savanne's you picked up a few weeks ago at Belk? I like the look.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Al, JB is me? What does "suc/wk" stand for?

As for my seersucker, I've vowed to wear it weekly 


Ha ha ha ha ha. Just figured out what suc/wk stands for. Seersucker per week. I couldn't bear to delete the train of thought, above, that lead me to the discovery.

To answer your questions, I start Memorial Day for seersucker here in Washington. Probably could do earlier, but I'm originally from up north, and I can just hear my mother if I were to glance to that end of my closet before 
Memorial Day. I usually wear the suit, but I noticed the jacket would look nice with my new "yellows" the other day (and I see how nice they look in your picture, Doc).

Once per week is going well. Although, this is really only the first full week of summer. Of course, wore it for the wedding last week. And in the rotation for tomorrow.

While we're on seersucker, some may know of the tradition of Seersucker Day on Capitol Hill (staffers, Congressman and Senators all show up turned out in their seersucker). In a future thread, I will be proposing an Ask Andy Seersucker Day. Stay tuned.

JB


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## Lance (Jan 10, 2004)

Barrister said:


> I definitely wear my seersucker almost everywhere from Easter to Labor Day here in NC. The one exception so far has been to court. I haven't been brave enough to try that yet. I'm still fairly young (29), and it seems to me you've need to be a little more "seasoned" to pull off the whole seersucker in court thing. I have my blue and white on today with a white OCBD, white linen squre, red, white and blue BB No. 1 repp tie, and weejuns. I also have a tan/white and a gray/white seersucker and I usually wear one to work once or twice a week and usually to church on Sunday, not to mention weddings, graduations, etc.
> 
> I have white bucks but I don't wear them that often. I usually prefer the weejuns.
> 
> ...


Barrister,

Are you a civil or criminal lawyer? I see quite a bit of seersucker at the Criminal Justice Building in Houston, but have never seen anyone at the civil courthouse wearing it.

Thanks,
Lance


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

I work for an investment bank on Wall St - and yes - I will rock the seersucker on casual Fridays. Sometimes the jacket w khakis, sometimes the pants w a blazer, and sometime as a suit together, but it does happen. Not sure if it is my influence, but since Ive been doing it, Ive noticed some others doing it as well. Granted, I run my own group, so its not something Id advise a summer analyst to do, but it does happen.


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## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

Very summery, Allen.

Hailing from Kentucky, seersucker season usually starts around Derby Day, and goes until Labor Day. Lots of opportunity there. In Lexingtion, the season coincides with the Keenland race meet, usually mid-April.

I now live in Michigan, and the season "officially" starts around Memorial Day. However, I started a little early since we had some days in the mid-80's in the middle of the month.

I have a gray/white seersucker suit, wear it with white bucks, and most favorably, a pink tie and light blue shirt. Most pastels look nice with it. I don't have the facial shape for a bow tie.

I also have a seersucker sport coat in white/blue/tan stripe. It goes well with tan, brown, navy blue, etc. slacks, and appropriate neckwear. With tan or putty slacks the shoes are an older pair of J&M saddles in tan/blue. I also like Footjoy (Alden) tassled loafers in British tan.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

We had a cool spring in NC, but I still saw a seersucker jacket on Easter morning. I have since seen the jacket by itself several times in (different) church services.

I haven't personally worn mine in public this year. I haven't had an occasion on a hot enough day yet. I'm still in the poplins.

Last August I spent 2 days on jury duty and saw a jacket with dark trousers on an attorney for a criminal case. 

It's just not hot enough for seersucker yet. But I'll forego the seersucker if it doesn't get any hotter than this!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Seersucker is certainly summer (only) attire...I had not really given the point a great deal of thought but, the memorial day to labor day parameters seem appropriate. I generally do seem to wear the coat and trousers seperately. When wearing the coat (probably six to eight times per season), I have worn chinos, navy or charcoal Docker style trousers and rounded out the ensembles with my AE chestnut coltons, one of a number of penny loafer options or, perhaps someday, Alden LHS revello cords (a mans gotta dream!).


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Barrister said:


> I definitely wear my seersucker almost everywhere from Easter to Labor Day here in NC. The one exception so far has been to court. I haven't been brave enough to try that yet. I'm still fairly young (29), and it seems to me you've need to be a little more "seasoned" to pull off the whole seersucker in court thing. I have my blue and white on today with a white OCBD, white linen squre, red, white and blue BB No. 1 repp tie, and weejuns. I also have a tan/white and a gray/white seersucker and I usually wear one to work once or twice a week and usually to church on Sunday, not to mention weddings, graduations, etc.
> 
> I have white bucks but I don't wear them that often. I usually prefer the weejuns.
> 
> ...


Barrister,
A few comments and an answer.
I would not wear the full on seersucker to a quarterly medical staff meeting, our version of court, so I definitely understand you not wearing it to court at 29(I'm in my thirties). I could not agree more with needing a little more gray around the ol temples. In another post you stated that you do not wear bow ties to court either and I think that another wise choice. Your time will come. Enjoy them at other times unless you live in an area filled with bow tie wearers, then enjoy them all the time, court included, just not while you represent me.
Yes, the yellow pants are the ones I showed a few weeks back, three washes and holding up well.

Actually, regarding my comments, take them with a grain of salt and you be the judge of what's right for you. 
I don't wear my white bucks that often either.

Allen


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Well, I might as well throw out these pics of me in my seersucker debut a few weeks ago again:












As I've stated elsewhere, I wanted to dress against the informality of the suit this time out, so spread collar, more formal tie and shoes.

I will give it a go with OCBD, bow and white/tan suede saddle oxfords or chestnut AE Lexington bluchers soon. I've not broken the jacket and trousers up yet, but I might try that this week.

Allen, looking sharp as usual.

And I consider the beginning of seersucker season to begin at Easter, ending at Labor Day.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

NewYorkBuck said:


> I work for an investment bank on Wall St - and yes - I will rock the seersucker on casual Fridays. Sometimes the jacket w khakis, sometimes the pants w a blazer, and sometime as a suit together, but it does happen. Not sure if it is my influence, but since Ive been doing it, Ive noticed some others doing it as well. Granted, I run my own group, so its not something Id advise a summer analyst to do, but it does happen.


Sticking it to the man. Hey, I am the man.
I'm betting it is your influence, and I'm betting that I would like a boss who wore seersucker. Now if I just knew something about investing banking.

Allen


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## Curator (Aug 4, 2005)

Joe Bondi said:


> In a future thread, I will be proposing an Ask Andy Seersucker Day. Stay tuned.
> 
> JB


I like it and will be waiting.

Great as always Allen- makes me eager to return to the States and my waiting Haspel in 4 days now!


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

*What where when*

Allen nice yellow chinos. I wear my seersucker suit with white or pink ocbd, some sort of repp or club tie, and usually dirty bucks. Never been that fond of white bucks for myself, maybe because I'll wear the jacket with khakis but also white ducks. Again usually with a ocbd and tie. If I'm wearing the white ducks I will usually wear a blue ocdb and a plain dull yellow silk tie I bought in Italy. Funny tie that, has a subtle sheen but is very heavy. I've also been known to wear black weejuns and a navy polo with them. I probably should not have typed that.....should I?
Cheers


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

KentW said:


> P.S. - Your pictures keep reminding me that I need to get more adventurous with my socks.
> 
> P.P.S - Hey, is that one of your new J. Press bows? I like!


Been wearing colored socks and argyle for so long....... truth is I'm no longer confident with "conservative"........I've lost my ability to match a plain colored sock if you can beleive that. Easier to be bold or adventurous.

Yes, another of the J. Press straight regimentals. I was sorting these last night. I really am questioning my decision to collect bows, really gets out of hand.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Dennis (others),


How clean do you keep your white bucks? How many seasons?

Allen


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

*season for seersucker*

In the midwest-Memorial through Labor Day- I have an old pair of bluechecked
seersucker trousers from Brooks I will probably wear w/navy blazer this summer-still keen to replace my seersucker jacket if not suit-havent had /worn since mid 90's-too bad it was a brooks 3-2 sack.
Doc I like the yello trou w/seersucker jacket.

3 button Max


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

mpcsb said:


> Allen nice yellow chinos. I wear my seersucker suit with white or pink ocbd, some sort of repp or club tie, and usually dirty bucks. Never been that fond of white bucks for myself, maybe because I'll wear the jacket with khakis but also white ducks. Again usually with a ocbd and tie. If I'm wearing the white ducks I will usually wear a blue ocdb and a plain dull yellow silk tie I bought in Italy. Funny tie that, has a subtle sheen but is very heavy. I've also been known to wear black weejuns and a navy polo with them. I probably should not have typed that.....should I?
> Cheers


Black shoes or the navy polo? or both? What shouldn't you have typed? Why do I have such a hard time wearing black shoes?.....less than a dozen times per year and I own three pair of black. Odd?

Allen


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## a.dickens (May 10, 2006)

I wear my seersucker a lot, although often not as a complete suit. I will wear the jacket with a number of things (khakis, jeans, pink pants...) and I will wear the pants with many things as well (polo shirts, OCBD's) both casually and formally. I am in the south so seersucker is not too foreign in my parts, but on a lad of my age (early 20's) its a bit uncommon. When I wear the whole suit, I usually wear a bow. I have worn it with long ties before, but I think it looks wierd. Also, for footwear, I wear loafers, saddle oxfords, or ::gasp:: rainbow flip flops.....I will check my private message folder for requests of my banishment from the trad forum for gross misconduct related to footwear.


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## Ted_Baer (Jun 4, 2006)

I have a beige chambray suit with a 3/2 jacket (darted though). It is a lot like seer sucker but is a little different.


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## Barrister (Nov 2, 2005)

*I thought the pants looked familiar...*

Allen, no worries, if you ever find yourself in need of my services, rest assured I'll opt for the repp four-in-hand. However, under those circumstances, be aware that I will put you on the "barter system payment plan" and have my fee delivered in handsome William King Clothiers boxes.

I have the same pants in the "red" or "brick" color. So far I've been very pleased. For $15 you can't beat them. Like Familyman says, I'd have to make a pair of Bills last five times as long to make them a better value.

Lance, I do a bit of both civil and criminal, often during the same trip to the courthouse. I'm a general practitioner but my practice is trending towards the transactional end, so most days I can wear what I want (though my clients still expect me to be in a coat and tie, which I have no problem with).


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*It hasn't been hot in New England yet. when it*

does I will break out the Haspel seersucker suit with or without white bucks, white or linen or pink or blue shirt with a summer tie. and I go to court. and I will wear a panama type hat with a red and blue ribbon that I bought form the old Abercrombie and Fitch. and I defend criminals.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

tom22 said:


> does I will break out the Haspel seersucker suit with or without white bucks, white or linen or pink or blue shirt with a summer tie. and I go to court. and I will wear a panama type hat with a red and blue ribbon that I bought form the old Abercrombie and Fitch. and I defend criminals.


Tom, do you see many fellow trads wearing seersucker in New England? Might I ask where in the 6-state area you might be? I plan to move back to my beloved Connecticut some day, and I would hate to have to retire my seersucker. I just don't remember a lot of men wearing them when I was growing up in southeastern CT.

JB


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

tom22 said:


> does I will break out the Haspel seersucker suit with or without white bucks, white or linen or pink or blue shirt with a summer tie. and I go to court. and I will wear a panama type hat with a red and blue ribbon that I bought form the old Abercrombie and Fitch. and I defend criminals.


And you drove an old Landie, or is that another Tom? Man, I'd like to see you in action. Nice mental picture. 
Other than your white bucks what are you wearing? edit; (for shoes that is)

Allen


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*white bucks*

my present pair is seven years old and by using white chalk in a bag its keeps the white bucks looking very good


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

I don't think there is a single seersucker suit in all of New Zealand. In spite of summer temperatures, there are barely any linen or cotton ones, either. In this country they are treated with the same suspicion as slip-ons or loafers or whatever you call them.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

mcarthur said:


> my present pair is seven years old and by using white chalk in a bag its keeps the white bucks looking very good


That's interesting, I wish more would respond to this. My bucks are new this year and I'm just not able to get them dirty fast enough. I have a couple pair of loafers, a pair of driving mocks, and my white bucks that I'd just like to see more "aged"......like work boots, only not, well that kind of soiled. You've seen one pair of the loafers in the J. Press sack blazer photo. 
Not sure why I fancy this look with some shoes. My boat shoes on the other hand I try to maintain. Odd?

Allen


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*The Seer*



Lance said:


> Barrister,
> 
> Are you a civil or criminal lawyer? I see quite a bit of seersucker at the Criminal Justice Building in Houston, but have never seen anyone at the civil courthouse wearing it.
> 
> ...


I thought Southern attorneys all tried to dress like Mattlock. In an interview recently, Mr. Griffith said he had to wear "that suit" for nigh unto 11 years. He quickly added that there were dozens of them in the wardrobe department.

Too bad too. Sheriff Taylor never looked half as good in seersucker as Allen.

Allen, you are one class act.

BTW: One rarely sees seersucker in Utah, but pincord is not unheard of. Unlike the motif-embroidered trousers, or the Nantucket reds, I've actually seen seersucker suits (head to toe) worn from time to time. I've also seen them on the racks of the local Tradlier stores. More gray and white than blue and white though.

Don't think I've ever seen a red and white seersucker jacket in person, which is odd considering that's the University of Utah's team colours.

After the big games between rivals BYU and the U of U, you see a lot of men wearing either blue and white or red and white ties in church on the following sunday. Whichever team lost, the team's colours are often scarce or missing from the congregation.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

a.dickens said:


> Also, for footwear, I wear loafers, saddle oxfords, or ::gasp:: rainbow flip flops.....I will check my private message folder for requests of my banishment from the trad forum for gross misconduct related to footwear.


Consider this an official warning. ic12337:


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

DougNZ said:


> I don't think there is a single seersucker suit in all of New Zealand. In spite of summer temperatures, there are barely any linen or cotton ones, either. In this country they are treated with the same suspicion as slip-ons or loafers or whatever you call them.


If you promised to wear it at least once and report back to us, I'd be tempted to send you one. What do you think the reaction would be?

Just what passes for summer time suiting?

Any madras cloth for shirts?

Allen


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

AlanC said:


> Consider this an official warning. ic12337:


LOL

I must say that startled me a bit. I thought that was directed at me from one of our new moderators regarding my response to Familyman.

Allen


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Joe: I am in your beloved Connecticut*

I am in court in a small city that used to be renowned for the manufacture of silver. I know of at least three other courthouse regulars who wear seeksucker suits in the summer.
I will observe that court has become a bit less formal than when I passed the bar in 1982. Many, many lawyers wear sports coats rather than suits year round. a no no back in the day. There is a small seeksucker tribe who show up in court in the summer. there are a lot of lawyers who make envious, appreciative, jealous remarks.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Allen said:


> If you promised to wear it at least once and report back to us, I'd be tempted to send you one. What do you think the reaction would be?
> 
> Just what passes for summer time suiting?
> 
> ...


The reaction: I wouldn't be able to report back to you ... ever.

Madras? Huh? Goes in the same bin as nantuckets, GTH, weejuns, and lime green anything.

We grow sheep here. For the few who are civilised enough to wear a jacket in summer, it is in wool. Too hot? At least you look manly!

:icon_smile:


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Oooops*



Allen said:


> Just what passes for summer time suiting?


As usual, I missed the point of your question.

Focus David, focus!

During the hottest parts of August, you see a lot of Poplin in Utah. Olive Poplin, Darker Beige Poplin, Khaki, and Light Khaki/ Stone Poplin, in order of popularity. Navy or Gray are not unheard of...

Many tropical weight wools and worsteds.

Year round weight suitings get you through the vast majority of Utah's weather conditions.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

DougNZ said:


> At least you look manly!
> 
> :icon_smile:


ouch.
You think you could do it in the states&#8230;..the pastels and all&#8230;..like on a prolonged visit or such? I could certainly do without it easy enough turning the tables, I feel certain.

Allen


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## jasonpraxis (Mar 29, 2005)

I started wearing the jacket with chinos just after Easter, but haven't yet brought out the full suit. Worn with dirty bucks and Weejuns. (And once, a pair of white Chucks... but don't tell anyone!) I've also worn the trousers separately, with bucks and an OCBD.

Last year I paired the jacket with jeans, but the jeans are no longer serviceable. Just when I start seeing the look on the undergrads, too. Go figure.

I probably wear the jacket and trousers separately more often than together, not for any conscious reason, but because I don't have a similarly casual/versatile summer jacket at the moment.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Allen said:


> ouch.
> You think you could do it in the states&#8230;..the pastels and all&#8230;..like on a prolonged visit or such? I could certainly do without it easy enough turning the tables, I feel certain.
> 
> Allen


One day, when I come visit, I'll let you outfit me as you like: seeksucker, embroidered pants, lemon, pink, loafers; hell I'll even tie whatever bow tie you throw at me. Of course, there will be no-one else I know there. And there will be NO photos. None.

Then I'll do a couple of laps of your paddock (or field or meadow or whatever you call them) on that big ol' tractor of yours ... wearing said outfit!


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

DougNZ said:


> One day, when I come visit, I'll let you outfit me as you like: seeksucker, embroidered pants, lemon, pink, loafers; hell I'll even tie whatever bow tie you throw at me. Of course, there will be no-one else I know there. And there will be NO photos. None.
> 
> Then I'll do a couple of laps of your paddock (or field or meadow or whatever you call them) on that big ol' tractor of yours ... wearing said outfit!


Watch out for the dog, it's a bit slow what with the short back legs and all.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*white bucks*



Allen said:


> That's interesting, I wish more would respond to this. My bucks are new this year and I'm just not able to get them dirty fast enough. I have a couple pair of loafers, a pair of driving mocks, and my white bucks that I'd just like to see more "aged"......like work boots, only not, well that kind of soiled. You've seen one pair of the loafers in the J. Press sack blazer photo.
> Not sure why I fancy this look with some shoes. My boat shoes on the other hand I try to maintain. Odd?
> 
> Allen


Please explain why you would want your white bucks looking dirty and aged?


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

tom22 said:


> I am in court in a small city that used to be renowned for the manufacture of silver. I know of at least three other courthouse regulars who wear seeksucker suits in the summer.
> I will observe that court has become a bit less formal than when I passed the bar in 1982. Many, many lawyers wear sports coats rather than suits year round. a no no back in the day. There is a small seeksucker tribe who show up in court in the summer. there are a lot of lawyers who make envious, appreciative, jealous remarks.


Tom, Meridan, I presume. I grew up south and east of you in Waterford, worked at Suisman, Shapiro in New London when I was in high school (see thread on trad summer jobs!).

Glad to hear evidence of Nutmeg seersucker.

JB


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## a.dickens (May 10, 2006)

jasonpraxis said:


> (And once, a pair of white Chucks... but don't tell anyone!)


I think I would like that. I am going to be on the lookout for a pair of white chucks...


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Seersucker, poplin, and linen suits have, traditionally, been far more prevalent in criminal law and certain legislative and government circles for years. Much of this is a remnant of the days when government buildings were some of the last to be retrofitted with A/C. Whereas most private sector professionals could wear their wool year round in climate controlled facilities, those frequenting government buildings could not. Mattlock played off the stereotype of this image.

To this day a lot of older courthouses are simply hot, even with a/c. Coupled with the fact people are running back and forth, in and out of the heat, a cotton or linen based suit is much cooler.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

mcarthur said:


> Please explain why you would want your white bucks looking dirty and aged?


Not sure if I can&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..very well, anyway. Blasphemous, right? Alden cordovan loafers looking like crap, white bucks that are dirty, a new pair of AE's that look aged far beyond their years, but boat shoes kept in a more pristine condition, but to be worn with something that most folks (around here) would wear dress shoes with, it just doesn't make sense. Same with a wrinkled shirt when one is otherwise "well dressed". Regional differences exist, but I think it goes beyond that. I certainly wouldn't do it because I thought it "looked" good, but rather because it "feels" good or just seemes like the right thing to do. 
Maybe because in a way you appeal to a more common denominator, one can't very well be "high and mighty" in his dress when at least one item is felt to be in need of attention or lacking. 
Southern trad is different from other areas. I don't think this is the thing to do in the NE, but I could be wrong. I can't believe I'm the only one doing it in the SE. 
I'm not doing the best job of explaining this, but I'll work on it. I've been trying to express and further this line of thought for sometime on the board, beginning with the "well worn loafer thread".

Edit

Similar to the red BMW I drive. To say yea I drive a red BMW is one thing, but when you see it (old and loud with poor a/c and no radio with loud exhaust) you think what is this, except it's a 6 series which in my opinion is classy and a bit exclusive or at least you don't see them frequently, some never. And it is in great shape, paint, mechanics, the works, You would never no what category to place it in.


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## Lance (Jan 10, 2004)

Allen, is the appeal similar to the appeal of a muddy, beat up, Barbour Beaufort that smells like gunpownder and dogs?

Lance


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Lance said:


> Allen, is the appeal similar to the appeal of a muddy, beat up, Barbour Beaufort that smells like gunpownder and dogs?
> 
> Lance


Depends on where one might wear such a coat. If it is worn on days that you are not out in the field with the dogs then yes, but if worn only when it's supposed to be worn, i.e pheasant hunting, then no.....it's different than that.

Not that you would wear that coat into the office, but running errands or to the bookstore or antiquing or to a ball game, some place though where a more appropriate, smarter coat would be worn. If it's new and you bought it to "run around" in, that's different as well, similar but different.
Allen


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

worn Oriental rug
tarnished silver
chipped china
old Mercedes
dusty mahogany

dirty white bucks


It shows a patrician detachment, age, tradition. Items passed down from one generation to the next (ok, not the bucks, but you get the idea). Gleaming white bucks = new money. Dirty white bucks = old money. 

Note: I am not passing any judgement here. I have no money. Just trying to help Al expain things a bit better. 

JB


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Joe Bondi said:


> worn Oriental rug
> tarnished silver
> chipped china
> old Mercedes
> ...


Thanks JB. I'm not old money, either........so I don't think that quite sums things up for me or at least I'd never admit to such. Perhaps we are getting at the truth though.........or at least closer.

Edit;
I should add that in the grand scheme of things, I'm not even new money.
I deal with the public everyday. I think they appreciate that they can talk to me, I'm approachable to them. Sure, I dress better than they do, but at least my shirt is wrinkled. Or at least I wasn't wearing pristine white shoes or "fancy" alligator loafers.
Allen


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Imperfect*



a.dickens said:


> I think I would like that. I am going to be on the lookout for a pair of white chucks...


Did you say white chucks or white chicks?



Lance said:


> Allen, is the appeal similar to the appeal of a muddy, beat up, Barbour Beaufort that smells like gunpownder and dogs?
> 
> Lance


Or a Jeep that is caked with mud from the Southern Utah desert?

I always have difficulty keeping my bucks from looking too clean and too dirty. One or two scuffs are okay, maybe a grass stain on the toe. Pristine white dressy men's shoes just look _wrong_ to me.


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## Goldrush (Apr 12, 2005)

Lance said:


> Barrister, I see quite a bit of seersucker at the Criminal Justice Building in Houston, but have never seen anyone at the civil courthouse wearing it.


What, not to motion day or calendar calls? Stuffy, stuffy....


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Joe Bondi said:


> Tom, do you see many fellow trads wearing seersucker in New England? Might I ask where in the 6-state area you might be? I plan to move back to my beloved Connecticut some day, and I would hate to have to retire my seersucker. I just don't remember a lot of men wearing them when I was growing up in southeastern CT.
> 
> JB


I grew up in SE Ct and went to college there too.

I wore mine to the last commencement at my alma mater, watching my younger friends graduate. My father wore his to my graduation at the same. There's not sucker all over the place but it's around.

Wore the jacket to the Judge's Panel my Moot Court class attended tonight.

I love wearing the suit itself, but have also worn the jacket with pants very like Allen's, also Kelly green, and of course whites.

Usually white or dirty bucks...though white with the full suit I think looks better.

Once or twice I have sported the straw boater hat with red and blue band, most recently to a late afternoon alumni reception at the law school at which no alumni showed but the graduates of the last year, but it takes a good situation to pull that off. I also have a Panama from DelMonico's in New Haven that I think would look great with it too.

Shirt is usually white or pink, occasionally yellow or blue.

Favorite ties to wear with it include grandfather's madras bow, Brooks white polka dot on navy, old navy blue talbott with red spouting whales, Brooks green/navy repp, just dark enough so the stripes dont clash with the seersucker. People are begging me to wear it for Moot Court arguments. I'm thinking a navy suit would be more appropriate however and will probably decline to do so.

Have occasionally worn the pants by themselves with a blue blazer. I always find myself thinking it looks okay but feeling sad that I picked the blazer over the whole suit.

My Press seersucker is probably my favorite suit. It and that old Rosenberg I posted a few weeks back for winter wear.

I also see nothing wrong with wearing between Easter and Memorial Day if it's hot enough. A few days back it was 88 degrees in Hartford


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Allen said:


> Thanks JB. I'm not old money, either........so I don't think that quite sums things up for me or at least I'd never admit to such. Perhaps we are getting at the truth though.........or at least closer.
> 
> Edit;
> I should add that in the grand scheme of things, I'm not even new money.
> ...


I have been enjoying the white bucks with dirt (as opposed to dirty bucks)sub-thread. I may even be a bit more neurotic. I like mine to look a bit worn, but not necessarily dirty.

And it is not even a money "patina" thing. To me, gleaming new white bucks shout Pat Boone or "I am squeaky clean, look at me". Could that be part of your aversion?


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

Allen said:


> Sticking it to the man. Hey, I am the man.
> I'm betting it is your influence, and I'm betting that I would like a boss who wore seersucker. Now if I just knew something about investing banking.
> 
> Allen


Thank you Sir. I will admit - I was a little nervous the first time I wore it, esp when my boss saw it for the first time. However - his remark - "If I had the shape Id wear it too!" put my fears to rest. In general, older school guys and the ladies at the firm love it. The only smart remarks I get are from some of the mid-level types. My response is usually - "Yeah - you need a lot of confidence to wear this - you probably couldnt pull it off...." If I am feeling particularly snappy and I know the antagonist did not attend an Ivy (on Wall St - that could be a sore spot), I will quip - "Yeah - its the Ivy League look - I wouldnt expect you to recongnize it....." Game Set Match.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Tom Buchanan said:


> I have been enjoying the white bucks with dirt (as opposed to dirty bucks)sub-thread. I may even be a bit more neurotic. I like mine to look a bit worn, but not necessarily dirty.
> 
> And it is not even a money "patina" thing. To me, gleaming new white bucks shout Pat Boone or "I am squeaky clean, look at me". Could that be part of your aversion?


Tom, 
Yes&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;well worn, as opposed to dirty, was my intent as well. I could dirty up a pair of bucks in just a few minutes here on the farm, it's the wrong kind of "dirty" though. A well "worn" pair of white bucks, grab almost as much attention as a "squeaky" clean pair. But I would agree, that too is a look I wish to avoid.

Interesting to note that while I would really like for my bucks to look well worn, I'd never buy a pair, or even wear them if the were given me, a pair of well worn bucks. I want to be the one responsible for their look. Much like if someone gave a Barbour Beaufort that smells like gunpownder and dogs to Lance, just wouldn't be the same.

The appeal of well worn shoes or a wrinkled shirt or even flat front trousers with cuffs to a snob, (a fashion snob, as opposed to class or monetary), is that a snob knows, or feels as though he knows clothes and dresses better than everyone else, so he feels justified in breaking rules. I think that could be the appeal of a well suited, even vested at times, Wm. King wearing loafers without socks.

More to be said.

Allen


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Here is where I think the FNB forum has a field day with the AAAC Trad forum: the constant return to the social or class meaning behind the clothes. It betrays a sense of personal insecurity. There is way too much thought given here to whether your white bucs show some quality other than fashion merit. As if, should the shoes have the proper aging or patina, then the informed observer can find some deeper revelation about the wearer.

White bucs have been worn by myself and family members for years. One pair of mine is reserved for better occasions, with other for day to day. The casual pair takes on a grayish hue, but never filthy. Grubby shoes worn to a wedding or the like is insulting, and reeks of self-reverence.

While my views are not uniformly popular here, I feel very comfortable in espousing certain opinions. With regards to trying to capture that "old money" look, I think that has long been the fool's challenge for aspirant types. The entire spectre is really more about self-obsession, whether one is a trustafarian, lottery winner, or of modest means. What remains lost is basic class, and in its place comes a vulgar perversion. 

More times than not, the "old money" types driving beat up cars did so because they lacked cash flow. While there may be great asset wealth, there may not be liquid funds for expense. Same goes for the rest of the old, beat up consumer goods. The cynical aspect is how a lack of funds creates a new challenge for aspirant types - "If you really want to look rich..." Others I have known are uncomfortable with the fact they don't contribute much to the world, don't really build careers or businesses, and have prominance only because of someone else's good fortune. Out of their insecurity comes forth a tweaking of accepted practice and behavior. Witness certain forms of decadent behavior or radical lifestyle changes that no one has the strength to publicy question or personally confront. Few truly wealthy people drive beat up cars or wear beat up clothes for reasons completely honest and forthright in nature.

Most everyone here probably knows how to dress appropriately for any time. Leave it at that. This is the pinnacle of class and manners. When thoughts venture toward anything else, one enters the slippery slope of vanity and unhealthly aspiration.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Here is where I think the FNB forum has a field day with the AAAC Trad forum: the constant return to the social or class meaning behind the clothes.


True, perhaps. But there are obsessions there as well such as a bizarre preoccupation with blue shoes indicating British 'insider' status, as well as swipes about a forum owner finding his clothes at thrift stores.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*white bucks*



Allen said:


> That's interesting, I wish more would respond to this. My bucks are new this year and I'm just not able to get them dirty fast enough. I have a couple pair of loafers, a pair of driving mocks, and my white bucks that I'd just like to see more "aged"......like work boots, only not, well that kind of soiled. You've seen one pair of the loafers in the J. Press sack blazer photo.
> Not sure why I fancy this look with some shoes. My boat shoes on the other hand I try to maintain. Odd?
> 
> Allen


My thoughts are not meant to be presumptuous- I am a few years older than you and the statement you are broadcasting to the world is that you are your own man. You want to do things your way and to get this point across you drive an old red bmw, bow tie, cordovan loafers and tie shoes etc. I applaud you.


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## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

Allen said:


> Dennis (others),
> How clean do you keep your white bucks? How many seasons?
> Allen


Allen, my white bucks are new this year. They're J&M's. I bought a small kit at the shoe repair shop. It looks like some type of chalk, to be rubbed on the offending spots, and a brush, used to even out the chalk. Worked perfectly on the first rub mark.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Here is where I think the FNB forum has a field day with the AAAC Trad forum: the constant return to the social or class meaning behind the clothes. It betrays a sense of personal insecurity. There is way too much thought given here to whether your white bucs show some quality other than fashion merit. As if, should the shoes have the proper aging or patina, then the informed observer can find some deeper revelation about the wearer.
> 
> White bucs have been worn by myself and family members for years. One pair of mine is reserved for better occasions, with other for day to day. The casual pair takes on a grayish hue, but never filthy. Grubby shoes worn to a wedding or the like is insulting, and reeks of self-reverence.
> 
> ...


"There is way too much thought given here to whether your white bucs show some quality other than fashion merit. As if, should the shoes have the proper aging or patina, then the informed observer can find some deeper revelation about the wearer."

Well spoken and I would agree and admit to a certain preoccupation with my dress in more ways than its fashion merits. I don't think this is a new revelation, dressing for perception, nor do I take offense and your stating what is obvious.

"White bucs have been worn by myself and family members for years. One pair of mine is reserved for better occasions, with other for day to day. The casual pair takes on a grayish hue, but never filthy. Grubby shoes worn to a wedding or the like is insulting, and reeks of self-reverence."

Not one, but two pair of white bucs, now that's trad. I'd like to see the grayish hue patina, photo one day? Patina is the operative word here, not filthy, and I've made note that I do not desire my bucs to be filthy. Regarding grubby shoes to a wedding, I agree with that as well and in no way would I consider doing such. If you've followed any of my previous postings, you can't help but note my feelings toward offensive dress, for instance I posted that another member forsake the seersucker to a wedding recently as it was sure to attract attention and I've remarked that my love of color never graces the church, rarely even a colored square. So while there is only a hint that your accusations are pointed at me, I still feel a need to take a stand in defense. Remember I'm the one who feels self conscious driving a convertible.

"While my views are not uniformly popular here, I feel very comfortable in espousing certain opinions. With regards to trying to capture that "old money" look, I think that has long been the fool's challenge for aspirant types. The entire spectre is really more about self-obsession, whether one is a trustafarian, lottery winner, or of modest means. What remains lost is basic class, and in its place comes a vulgar perversion."

Is there a manner in which one may dress that he is not trying to capture "something"? I think anyone who would read a men's clothing forum would qualify as "self-obsessed", a self obsession that could hardly be limited to "just clothing". And if one is drawn to an "old money" look how is that any worse or any more vulgar than aspiring to a "Bohemian, metrosexual, environmental (granola), Anglophilic or any other look" or dressing below ones financial means for that matter.

"Few truly wealthy people drive beat up cars or wear beat up clothes for reasons completely honest and forthright in nature." 
So therefore why does it seem so vulgar if I choose to do so? I wouldn't exactly be trying to emulate a wealthy man or something that I'm not.

"Most everyone here probably knows how to dress appropriately for any time. Leave it at that. This is the pinnacle of class and manners. When thoughts venture toward anything else, one enters the slippery slope of vanity and unhealthly aspiration."

I couldn't agree more, how and when to dress. I'm getting really close to having this figured out. But I keep stumbling over "appropriately". What's appropriate for one is not necessarily for the other. True there are parameters of good taste that we must stay within, but we are not clones, rather we are unique and we show this in our actions and in our dress, as well as in the cars we drive and the houses we live in and the churches we attend and the charities we donate to, etc.

I suppose I could tell you that just last week, I bought a pair of "false teeth" for a patient who was indigent. Maybe I should begin prefacing my posts with comments on a charitable act. But this is a clothes forum for self obsessed clothes junkies.

Allen


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Here is where I think the FNB forum has a field day with the AAAC Trad forum: the constant return to the social or class meaning behind the clothes. It betrays a sense of personal insecurity. There is way too much thought given here to whether your white bucs show some quality other than fashion merit. As if, should the shoes have the proper aging or patina, then the informed observer can find some deeper revelation about the wearer.


Did you ever stop to think that maybe Allen just likes the way broken-in shoes look and feel? I don't think this has anything to do with social class. I could be wrong, but my feeling from reading his posts is that he likes his shoes well worn. I immediately thought of a baseball glove. Do you want a glove that is brand new and stiff? No, you want one that is used, soft, and feels good on your hand. You don't buy your glove that way, you break it in yourself. Allen doesn't want to just make his shoes dirty by walking around his farm, he wants to break them in himself. It was the same for me when I bought a new pair of Stan Smiths; I couldn't wait to get 'em worn and dirty because they are more comfortable that way. 
And as for driving beat up cars, I drive an old Saab because I like it, not to appear as some old money type, or because I lack cash flow. I have a new Saab too, but I don't think I will ever get rid of the old one....love that goofy shape!


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## jasonpraxis (Mar 29, 2005)

a.dickens said:


> I think I would like that. I am going to be on the lookout for a pair of white chucks...


I think it's a great choice. I prefer the "regular" white color over the "optical" white color, but either one would probably work.


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## rogue (May 21, 2005)

I prefer white bucks with a patina because sometimes that new white looks a bit jarring in an outfit. I have certainly seen both look good, however.

The quickest way to the patina that I can think of was college bars. Not the best thing for the shoes, but if you wore your white bucks to a good bar on a weekend night and then cleaned them up, you had a full patina and they were never going to be super shiny white again. Still white, but with a duller finish, leaning toward grey.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

rogue said:


> The quickest way to the patina that I can think of was college bars. Not the best thing for the shoes, but if you wore your white bucks to a good bar on a weekend night and then cleaned them up, you had a full patina and they were never going to be super shiny white again. Still white, but with a duller finish, leaning toward grey.


Nice. What a great way to break-in shoes!


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Allen,

My comments really weren't directed toward you, specifically, but the tendency this forum has to attach too great a meaning to everything. 

Without fail, every thread like this will sooner or later mention an old Mercedes 300. Well, I drove one in grad school, and it really wasn't that great. Sure it would have been fantastic in and around '79 or '80, but I'll take a car with working A/C. The beat up car reference was about this, not your 6 series (which by the way, really are one of BMWs best. The new one simply lost it).

And what's with the Barbour coats? Mine's 15 years old, but if I needed a new one, I really could care less if it looked "too new" for some tastes. Here again, it is implied that anyone with a new coat might come off a little "new" themselves. We really don't need to entertain these social class games.

Again, these comments aren't made directly to you, Allen, but the persisting trend the Trad threads exhibit. Wear your white bucks a few times a week, and they will darken. Fear not those who read something into shoes that seem too clean to be real. 

There is a phrase in New Orleans, "Galatoires on Sunday, clip coupons on Monday". It sums up those who might have the breeding and family estate, but not the means to still pull it off. These sorts are really not worth emulating, for they should concern themselves more with finding a decent job and paying their bills, than what's new in the social register.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> There is a phrase in New Orleans, "Galatoires on Sunday, clip coupons on Monday". It sums up those who might have the breeding and family estate, but not the means to still pull it off.


I'm not from NO, nor have I heard that particular phrase before. However, I couldn't help but think that it might have a dual meaning. The other being that it's perfectly acceptable to remain thrifty in some aspects of your life even while you're extravagent in others. Personally, I can relate to that.

The Texans have a phrase that sums up what you're trying to say, with no possibility of a dual meaning: "Big hat, no cattle."


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

rogue said:


> I prefer white bucks with a patina because sometimes that new white looks a bit jarring in an outfit. I have certainly seen both look good, however.
> 
> The quickest way to the patina that I can think of was college bars. Not the best thing for the shoes, but if you wore your white bucks to a good bar on a weekend night and then cleaned them up, you had a full patina and they were never going to be super shiny white again. Still white, but with a duller finish, leaning toward grey.


You must have gone to one of those fancy schools . At my college, people wore their worst shoes (or even LLB duck mocs) to certain bars because the floors were so nasty. That was a "patina" you did not want.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Tom Buchanan said:


> At my college, people wore their worst shoes (or even LLB duck mocs) to certain bars because the floors were so nasty. That was a "patina" you did not want.


Especially the men's bathrooms. Good place for duck boots. :drunken_smilie:


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

KentW said:


> Especially the men's bathrooms. Good place for duck boots. :drunken_smilie:


True, although depending on the lines to the bathrooms on any given night, I am not sure that the floors of the bar area were much different. O.k., I have now taken this to a new low.


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> We really don't need to entertain these social class games.


We don't NEED to but we discuss a lot of things around here that we don't NEED to. Nobody here invented the whole cracked shoe thing. Or the tattered tweed thing or the old (but quality) car thing. We merely commented on it. I like the look of shoes that have a patina of age on them. So do lots of posters in the main forum where shoe antiquing has been discussed. I also like old Volvos, I had one before I even joined the forum, I liked it better than my mini van but Swedes can't make AC. Or they couldn't in '82. 
And what's wrong with wanting to move up classes? Or at least look like you have? People do it all the time with their houses and furniture and cars and they are complimented. Hell, people buy furniture and jeans and everything else that has been pre-distressed and they pay extra for it. Is it so wrong that somebody here wants bucks that look a little beat? That's why dirty bucks came about in the first place (if the stories I've heard are true) Why should you or anybody over at FNB care if we're all social class climbing dorks? Really, who cares?


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## JDDY (Mar 18, 2006)

jasonpraxis said:


> I think it's a great choice. I prefer the "regular" white color over the "optical" white color, but either one would probably work.


I just got a pair of the "optical" low-tops- as I am purging myself of a summer flip-flop propensity. I went for those because I figured they would appear "natural" after one or two weekends (they do). Nice summer sneaker. I don't think you could call that a patina, though... The glare of new white shoes makes me uncomfortable too, but you have to wear them out to wear them in.

Why are old European cars so cool, yet my teenage Camry, with its impecable reliability, high gas mileage, and low cost of repair, so not cool. I don't know but thats just the way it is.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

JDDY said:
 

> Why are old European cars so cool, yet my teenage Camry, with its impecable reliability, high gas mileage, and low cost of repair, so not cool. I don't know but thats just the way it is.


That is truly inexplicable. My wife's 1986 Volvo 240 station wagon still looked stylish, rust spots and all, right up until the day we traded it in on her 1997 Honda Accord station wagon. We still have the Honda, and it looks like a piece of crap after almost 10 years. She won't let me get rid of it yet, though...doesn't want a car payment. Frugality...gotta love it in a woman.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Here is where I think the FNB forum has a field day with the AAAC Trad forum: the constant return to the social or class meaning behind the clothes. It betrays a sense of personal insecurity. There is way too much thought given here to whether your white bucs show some quality other than fashion merit. As if, should the shoes have the proper aging or patina, then the informed observer can find some deeper revelation about the wearer.


Wow, where did this come from! I fear I must have drifted off and missed something. I'm not really sure how wanting to develope and display a well worn patina on a pair of white bucs conveys any underlying motives relating to the flaunting of ones social class. Nor do I see how a persons choosing to drive an older, classic (even a) luxury car, built to run for several hundred thousand miles and provide 20, plus years of service, equates to an underlying sense of eglatarianism (is this really a word?). Perhaps it's just good value!

Some of us simply take comfort in those items we have enjoyed for a period of time and, on some level, are justifiably satisfied by the knowledge that a particular item of clothing or piece of equipement has been with us and served us well through whatever adventures life may have brought our way. In Allens' case it's a pair of white bucs...in mine it's a pair of 23 year old AE Leeds and in each instance the item (shoes, cars, whatever) means more to the wearer through their continued presence, use and future servicability in the owners life. It is not all about class consciousness.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Joe Bondi said:


> worn Oriental rug
> tarnished silver
> chipped china
> old Mercedes
> ...


Some of you are not reading this thread very carefully. The subtext about older shoes was starting, then this comment came along. Joe, I don't mean to single you out, so my apologies. However, this is with what others are taking issue, and I think there is a point.

Dressing with traditional tastes and values is fine. Appreciating value is great. But reading too much into things and buying into the load of social class garbage is where the train derails. If you fall for this, go back and read Dr. Suess' book about the Star Bellied Sneeches (or whatever they were). In essence: I have this and you don't. Look, I have it, too, now. No, your's looks new, and that's just not as good. By the way, did you see what else I have, too.

The whole "new money" thing was a way to preserve class structure when it could no longer be enforced by dollars alone. While it is a virture to appreciate real value, avoiding the trendy and tacky, I find people who cling on to false pretenses just as vulgar as the nouveau. Take on one issue, the "we don't buy new cars, thats declasse". Truly wealthy people do not send their wife or daughter on the highway in an old, questionable car. There may some older thing around to keep a modest appearence (like a farm truck or station wagon), but don't overlook the $100K+ S-class in the garage.

Stick to the clothes, not the trad fantasy land. Enjoy the social events, certainly. Those pictures from the horse race were great. But don't perpetuate the old ways that never really served people very well.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Truly wealthy people do not send their wife or daughter on the highway in an old, questionable car.


Man, do I have some stories for you...

But I'm also not going to belabor the point. Looks like the other thread on this issue where people were debating the trad-ness of the very thread itself has been deleted. Let's not add this one to that list.


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## Cleveland Brown (Feb 13, 2006)

On the earlier issue of when do you break out the seersucker, sometimes I will stretch it into early April or late Sept, early October. I live in TX and if the temperature is in the upper 90's, then I don't care what time of year it is.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Cleveland Brown said:


> On the earlier issue of when do you break out the seersucker, sometimes I will stretch it into early April or late Sept, early October. I live in TX and if the temperature is in the upper 90's, then I don't care what time of year it is.


Live by the Easter to Labor Day rule, die by the Easter to Labor Day rule. After all, this is important criteria for picking out a wife.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Some of you are not reading this thread very carefully. The subtext about older shoes was starting, then this comment came along. Joe, I don't mean to single you out, so my apologies. However, this is with what others are taking issue, and I think there is a point.
> 
> Dressing with traditional tastes and values is fine. Appreciating value is great. But reading too much into things and buying into the load of social class garbage is where the train derails. If you fall for this, go back and read Dr. Suess' book about the Star Bellied Sneeches (or whatever they were).  In essence: I have this and you don't. Look, I have it, too, now. No, your's looks new, and that's just not as good. By the way, did you see what else I have, too.
> 
> ...


You all should have read my post--written with sarcastic tongue planted firmly in cheek--the same way you read OPH so many years ago. I was merely offering Allan a Birnbachian response to question of "why do I long for my white bucks to be dirty?"

Relax.

JB


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

JB- very well done!


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