# Guelph or Ghibelline?



## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

In my neverending quest to improve the body politic and to boost my sagging political fortunes ( I have yet to be elected so much as dog catcher ) I have decided that both the Democratic and Republican parties should be abolished.

Instead, henceforth, people may belong to either the Guelph or Ghibelline parties.

For those needing a Dante refresher course, in Medieval Italy the Guelph party was pro-Papacy while the Ghibelline was pro-Emperor. Basically, Guelph=Florence while Ghibelline=Siena.

As part of my research for this project, I am conducting a survey asking people to state which party they would choose and to state their reasons ( or lack thereof, as the case may be ) for this choice.

Because Dante is relevant here, flames in response may be indicated.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

SHB,

As a confirmed Papist I am definitely a Guelph, and a Black one at that, Dante not withstanding! 

Italy has not been the same since the Risorgimento or the fall of the Habsburgs. Oh the pity of Solferino!

But to your question, again - Black Guelph.

Karl


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## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

Rather than stretch my vocabulary attempting to explain my Ghibelline enthusiasm, I proffer instead the following, which IMHO says it all:

​
_Commemoration of Guidoriccio Da Fogliano at the Siege of Montemassi_ (attributed to Simone Martini)


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Ghibelline--I have no particular affection for the Papacy, and I always thought the House of Hohenstaufen, with Frederick II and Manfred, seemed pretty cool.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Is there a third option?


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## Mahler (Aug 5, 2005)

*If only other choices were so easy*

Whew, that was one of the easiest polls I've ever taken! Ghibelline, of course.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Sir Henry Billingsgate said:


> Because Dante is relevant here, flames in response may be indicated.


I think the flames are being reserved for the Ghibellines for not supporting the true vicar but instead some temporal leader. - :icon_smile_wink:

Viva la Papa


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

mpcsb said:


> I think the flames are being reserved for the Ghibellines for not supporting the true vicar but instead some temporal leader. - :icon_smile_wink:
> 
> Viva la Papa


"La Papa"????!!! The Pope is not female, "Papa" is not feminine!

Some alternatives:

Viva el Papa! (Spanish)
Viva il Papa! (Italian)
Vive le Pape! (French)
Vivat Papa! (Latin)

Oh, and while I am being in my snotty, pedantic editor mode, they ain't no such word as "gustabus," Sir Henry!


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> "La Papa"????!!! The Pope is not female, "Papa" is not feminine!
> 
> Some alternatives:
> 
> ...


Ok, Viva il Papa it is.
Must be a Ghibelline. 
Gotta get more wood for the fire.


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## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

_Oh, and while I am being in my snotty, pedantic editor mode, they ain't no such word as "gustabus," Sir Henry!_

Horrors - a mighty blow to the noble Ghibelline cause.


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## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

Most of our discussion so far has ( quite rightly ) focused on the competing merits of pope vs. emperor.

But the Guelph / Ghibelline contratemps is more than that. Much of medieval Tuscan history featured the rivalry between Guelph Florence and Ghibelline Siena.

Which gives rise to the trick question of what do we do with a Sienese pope?

I present the following, _Aeneas Piccolomini Leaves for the Council of Basle_ 1502-08, Fresco, Piccolomini Library, Duomo, Siena, by Pinturicchio. This is part of the fresco biography of Sienese Pope Pius II, which - to me - betrays a Ghibelline panache.


​


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I suppose that in this discussion we tend to forget that to the Medieval mind, the Empire was a supposed to be a God-ordained institution like the Church. Thus much more parity was would exist between Pope and Emperor in the minds of the faithful than there would today between the Pope and a temporal head of state (to a devout Catholic, anyway).

It is interesting that Dante, though himself a Guelph, places Brutus and Cassius along with Judas being gnawed by Satan in lowest rung of Hell, the former two being traitors to the Empire and its head. While we can easily understand Judas being there, placing Brutus and Cassius, who are commonly regarded as patriots and heroes, with him is disconcerting to our modern sensibilities.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gentlemen,

Europe was racked by partisan struggles during the 12th and 13th century and the Levant was lost forever to Christendom. Last I looked that neighborhood was still being fought over - Plus c'est la meme chose, plus ça change.

And JLibourel is entirely correct in his point that empire was seen has having divine legitimacy, though in later years, as nationalism and the nascent movement towards modern liberty began, monarchs had increasing difficulty in justifying their power and often went through intellectual hoops to do so - witness the kaiserlich und königlich concept in the later years of the Habsburgs.

Karl


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## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

Siena was particularly devoted to the Virgin Mary, who is credited with her greatest victory over Florence.

On September 4, 1260 The Sieneses Ghibellines, supported by the forces of King Manfred of Sicily, defeated the Florentine Guelphs at Montaperti. The Sienese faced an overwhelming Florentine army. Prior to the battle, the entire city was dedicated to the Virgin Mary and entrusted to her possession.


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> Brutus and Cassius, who are commonly regarded as patriots and heroes, .


Brutus and Cassius were tools of the corrupt and decadent senatorial class, which had lead Rome into decades of anarchy and civil war until Augustus - following in Caesar's footsteps - established the empire that became the basis for European civilization.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm not sure I have a horse in this race. Can you put me down as a confirmed Jacobite?


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

wheredidyougetthathat said:


> Brutus and Cassius were tools of the corrupt and decadent senatorial class, which had lead Rome into decades of anarchy and civil war until Augustus - following in Caesar's footsteps - established the empire that became the basis for European civilization.


That sure could lead to some lengthy discussions, if we had the time or the inclination, which I don't. More than any "corruption" or "decadence" on the part of the senators, I would say that the rise of military dynasts whose armies owed more allegiance to them than to the state--Marius, Sulla, Pompey and Caesar--were what brought about most of the anarchy and civil war. This was a natural consequence of having to field large armies that fought for years in distant regions--Spain, Africa, Asia, Gaul, etc.--as the imperium of the Roman Republic expanded. Moreover, I am not sure one can speak of a "senatorial class." "Novi homines" like Marius and Cicero not only attained the senate but even the consulship.

You will note too that I said "commonly regarded" when it came to Brutus and Cassius. I seem to vaguely recall that Brutus was guilty of crass and extortionate practices when he was governing a province.

While most would agree that the settlement of Augustus was a masterful piece of statecraft, Caesar appeared to be more set on a dictatorship like Sulla's without the latter's retirement. We might also bear in mind that the Augustan constitutional settlement was always a somewhat shaky structure. It unravelled badly in the year 68-9 and in the civil wars following the death of Commodus, and the empire finally blew apart in the mid-third century. Why the Roman Empire did not "fall" then is one of history's minor miracles. Although it is fashionable to pooh-pooh the idea of "great men" as shapers of history, one could argue that such able emperors as Claudius Gothicus, Aurelian and Diocletian really saved the Empire.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

When does this poll close? The Guelphs stand prepared to declare victory.

Karl


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> When does this poll close? The Guelphs stand prepared to declare victory.
> 
> Karl


Well, since the male line of the House of Hohenstaufen died out...or were killed by their enemies, more accurately in most cases...in the latter part of the 13th century and the Papacy remains as vigorous as ever, that would seem to be verdict of history as well.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

JL,

The Vatican can always use some extra support. European demographics don't favor it, its losing support in South America, the fidelity of the American Church is dubious, Asia isn't promising and the African Church has taken a few steps backward since a certain bishop of Hippo. 

Karl


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> While most would agree that the settlement of Augustus was a masterful piece of statecraft, Caesar appeared to be more set on a dictatorship like Sulla's without the latter's retirement. .


Room for argument there, but I agree we shouldn't hijack a thread that really just deals with the struggle between the _neri_ and the _bianchi_ (couldn't they all just get along?)


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## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

_It is interesting that Dante, though himself a Guelph, places Brutus and Cassius along with Judas being gnawed by Satan in lowest rung of Hell, the former two being traitors to the Empire and its head. While we can easily understand Judas being there, placing Brutus and Cassius, who are commonly regarded as patriots and heroes, with him is disconcerting to our modern sensibilities._

Remember, he was being guided by Virgil, poet of the empire.

And it shows Bonifice VIII condemned to Hell.

Actually, Dante, a White Guelph, in the _Comedy_ is highly critical of the papacy and supports the Empire.

As for Pius II, pictured above, he claimed descent from Romulus.


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

This has been a most fascinating thread to read. I did not realize the extent of the the knowledge and interest within this Forum of the political and religious climate in Medieval Italy. Makes me what to pick up The Comedia once again (and maybe acutally get through it!). 

And off the topic, anyone here have a good book on the Recusants? 


Joe


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Well, given my nom d'internet, I am most definitely a Merovingian, and thus a pox upon both the Guelphs and Ghibellines!


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## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

_And off the topic, anyone here have a good book on the Recusants? _

God's Secret Agents : Queen Elizabeth's Forbidden Priests and the Hatching of the Gunpowder Plot


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

You could also be talking about Guelph, Ontario (, or the House of Guelph (*.*


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## manicturncoat (Oct 4, 2004)

Guelfo Bianco


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## Des Esseintes (Aug 16, 2005)

Hockeyinsider - I guess the House of Guelph (or the Welfen, as it is in the original German) is what gave the Guelf party (if I may use this expression) its name, the Welfen being the main political opponents of the house of Hohanstaufen in their German territories.

Karl - I am not sure I get your reference to the K&K monarchy -my understanding was that this stood for their dual title of Emperors of Austria and Kings of Hungary. Of course, the Emperor title, at least formally, aimed at continuing the tradition of the Holy Roman Emperors, with their Deo Gratias legitimation. Nevertheless, I don't think the K&K title construct as such is in any way related to the idea of a duality (balance?) of Church (Pope) and Government (Emperor) in medieval central Europe.

Finally, my vote goes to the Ghibelline party, of course - JLibourel phrased the reasons for this support very nicely in his first post in this thread...

Stupor mundi!

dE


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

DE,

No the K.und K. reference was not meant as part of the Guelph-Ghibelline debate but rather to point out, that as divine right came under skepticism in an increasingly secular Europe and nationalism began to grow, the Habsburgs had to resort to increasingly tortured means to justify empire. The 1867 Ausgleich, of which the K. und K. (Royal and Imperial) concept sprang, greated two kingdoms in one empire and was an attempt to pacify Magyar nationalism. It had a disastrous result as the Hungarians attempted a Magyarization of the Kingdom of Hungary (which included Slovakia, parts of Romania. Serbia, Croatia and Ukraine) and prevented the realization of an effective Habsburg defense policy as all defense outlays had to be approved by both Vienna and Budapest.

Funny though, that it was Hungary and not Austria, that tried to restore the Habsburgs to the throne in 1921.

Karl


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> DE,
> 
> No the K.und K. reference was not meant as part of the Guelph-Ghibelline debate but rather to point out, that as divine right came under skepticism in an increasingly secular Europe and nationalism began to grow, the Habsburgs had to resort to increasingly tortured means to justify empire. The 1867 Ausgleich, of which the K. und K. (Royal and Imperial) concept sprang, greated two kingdoms in one empire and was an attempt to pacify Magyar nationalism. It had a disastrous result as the Hungarians attempted a Magyarization of the Kingdom of Hungary (which included Slovakia, parts of Romania. Serbia, Croatia and Ukraine) and prevented the realization of an effective Habsburg defense policy as all defense outlays had to be approved by both Vienna and Budapest.
> 
> ...


Yeah.

Cause lbreaking up the Empire brought such happiness & prosperity to all those countries.

Cause the idea of a united multinational multiethnic parliamentary state is so unthinkably awful.

Cause it's just so damned important that Fillintheblankania be its own separate little country & no dirty non-Fillintheblankanians allowed inside.

Yeah.


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