# Made in Taiwan



## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

People tend to have certain preconceptions about things based on where they are made. I think most of us know it's _possible_ to have a product made to a very high standard of quality no matter where the factory is located, just as it's also possible to have a product made to a very low standard of quality anywhere in the world.

That being said, what does "Made in Taiwan" mean to you? And I don't mean specifically about clothes, but in general. Compare to your impression of "Made in China".


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Well as a keen race cyclist it means quality frames. The best quality US cycle brands (Cannondale, Specialized, Merida etc.)and many of the UK and Italian ditto now have their frames & forks made in China and Taiwan in very advanced factories and then shipped back to the US/UK/Italy for assembly. I read a huge article on it recently in a cycling mag. Bascially it's another case of where China/Taiwan have taken on the cost of the very advanced techincal development for an expensive product, which means that the makers of the top quality race bikes can keep the prices a good bit lower than if they had to foot the cost of factories and their advanced techincal development themselves. 

20 years ago, Chinese race frame? Crap
Today? The best.

Not of course to be confused with Japan. If you ever see a secondhand race bike that has the legend on it, as one of mine does, "Hand built in Japan" then buy it! It's quality.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Are those frames made from steel, aluminum, or some kind of composite?

How would you respond to a comment like, "The steel used in Chinese production is inferior. This has been proven in hundreds of tests."

Do you think that the quality of a product has more to do with the design of the product, and what it is specified to be made out of? Rather than who actually makes it, as long as they are true to the specifications?

I assume that these bicycle brands could get frames of the same level of quality made in the USA or UK, but go to China or Taiwan because the labor is cheaper. But what they're getting is the same level of quality they would get from a native factory, right?


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

"Made in Taiwan" means to me quality electronics. Such as Acer,Asus and HTC. (Taiwan also produces a lot of the computer parts for other popular computer brands)


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

I seem to remember reading once that _all_ PC motherboards are made in Taiwan.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> I seem to remember reading once that _all_ PC motherboards are made in Taiwan.


Yes, by Asus.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

ZachGranstrom said:


> Yes, by Asus.


I haven't been paying much attention to PC hardware lately, but there used to be (including back when I would have read the statement I mentioned in my previous post) many more motherboard brands besides Asus.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> I haven't been paying much attention to PC hardware lately, but there used to be (including back when I would have read
> the statement I mentioned in my previous post) many more motherboard brands besides
> Asus.


Sorry. I should've mention that Asus for a little while use to make all/most of the motherboards,but nowadays there are brands like MSI and Gigabyte, for example, that make motherboards.( MSI and Gigabyte are both Taiwan companies)


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> Are those frames made from steel, aluminum, or some kind of composite?
> 
> How would you respond to a comment like, "The steel used in Chinese production is inferior. This has been proven in hundreds of tests."
> 
> ...


I see you're not familiar with the sector. If you're interested most quality bicycle company websites cover the issue,as do many bicycle magazines quite regularly. 
But a few main points:

1. All types for top class race frames: steel, aluminium/alloys, titanium, carbon fibre 
2. not a matter of lower labour costs. Chinese & Taiwanese bike builders are not low paid workers in India.
3. facilities not available in UK/US

And a truthful yet revealing text from Cannondale's website: 
"Headquartered in Bethel, Connecticut, Cannondale *designs, develops and produces* bicycles at its factory in Bedford, Pennsylvania." Note absence of the words *makes or manufactures*. That's because the frames & forks are manufacted in Asia.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I think the product was manufactured in Taiwan in a factory or a sweatshop.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

In the modern era manufacturing location is merely an indication of labor cost. Using Arc'Teryx as an example, which is a Canadian clothing manufacturer produces it's lines both in the US/Canada (for Government compliant sales), and in China. The garments are identical. The difference is that the US/Canada garment costs $18.00/hr to produce, and the China garment costs $0.18/hr.

Stereotypically, country of origin has however been an indication of quality.. Like swiss watches, or Italian/German cars.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Apatheticviews said:


> Stereotypically, country of origin has however been an indication of quality.. Like... Italian... cars.


I assume you can only be talking about Maseratis and Fiats because it is well known by motor journalists & test drivers that Ferraris and Lambos do not offer the high level of quality that the pricetag should provide. My point bieng I would never have thought "Italy" if someone said, "name a country that makes quality cars", Germany or Japan yes, but not Italian or French or British or American cars.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> My point bieng I would never have thought "Italy" if someone said, "name a country that makes quality cars", Germany or Japan yes, but not Italian or French or British or American cars.


Tell that to my Defender. Or my GMC diesel. Both bullet proof. You want a tough truck, go for Rover or an American pickup (honorable mention to the Hilux and old Land Cruisers).


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I assume you can only be talking about Maseratis and Fiats because it is well known by motor journalists & test drivers that Ferraris and Lambos do not offer the high level of quality that the pricetag should provide. My point bieng I would never have thought "Italy" if someone said, "name a country that makes quality cars", Germany or Japan yes, but not Italian or French or British or American cars.


See that's the funny thing about stereotypes. One person's stereotype is completely different than another. You pinged the Italians while I would have made fun of the German cars tendency to leak fluids. Likewise Smujd brought up American trucks, which you had dinged under the caveat of "cars" in general.

I stand by my original statement, "In the modern era manufacturing location is merely an indication of labor cost." I don't believe Germans (which are manufactured in Mexico) make cars any better than Japanese do (which are manufactured in America for Americans by the way).

I've driven Japanese manufactured Japanese cars for domestic (Japan) sale, when I was stationed in japan. They were manufactured for japanese safety standards (which are far below US levels, which aren't needed because Japanese laws are stricter). I wouldn't dare drive one on a US highway.

Your game of "Name a country that makes quality cars" wouldn't exclude Italy though. Much like it wouldn't exclude Japan, or Germany, or UK, or the US. It would just require someone to mention the brand. But for reference, I think of _most_ Italian cars like I think of Italian women, a tad too fickle and prone to leaving me stranded on the side of the road (yes, a stereotype), but that doesn't mean there aren't some gems among them


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

This topic came up because on another message board, someone asked for a knife recommendation (for emergency responders) and I suggested the Gerber Hinderer. (The Hinderer is a 3.5" folding knife with a fully serrated blade, a blunt tip, a seatbelt cutter, a window punch, and a slot sized for oxygen bottle valves. It was designed by a firefighter and is marketed to emergency responders.) One guy replied that the Hinderer was OK but was made in China.

So I said...So what? What does that have to do with it? Why is he mentioning it as if that fact, in and of itself, is enough for someone to discount considering it for purchase? Sure there's junk that comes from China, but that's because those products were designed to be junk. Or they weren't manufactured with good quality controls. Then I learned that this knife is actually made in Taiwan, so I mainly wanted to see what people thought of "Made in Taiwan" in general to see if that was even a point worth mentioning on that other message board.

Along the way, I referred to this knife as an American product. It was designed by an American for an American company (which happens to be owned by a Finnish company). He told me that 99.99% of Americans would understand that if it's made in China or Taiwan, it's not an American product. I said where it's made doesn't matter. Some Asian people get paid to manufacture it but it's an American product just as surely as the Honda Accords made in Ohio are Japanese products. I also stated my opinion that whether it's made in China, Taiwan, or the USA wouldn't make any difference because no matter where it's made, it'd be made to the same design with the same materials, and manufactured under the same quality standards. Sure, sometimes there are manufacturing defects, but that can happen in any country.

Was I right, though, to say that a product designed in America for an American company, and made in Taiwan, is an American product? I think my analogy to cars is valid. Honda Accords are Japanese cars. German cars made in Mexico are German cars, not Mexican cars.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Well actually, the vast majority of German cars are still made in Germany. And here's an interesting bit of trivia, the greatest volume of family cars made by a single manufacturer in the UK in the 90s was...wait for it...Nissan. 

German cars, my own, a Ford Mondeo made in Germany best car I've ever owned.
My previous car, a Ford Scorpio made in Germany worst car I've ever owned.
So, yea, of course, it's always to be swings and roundabouts with cars.

BUT, it just seems a little too coincidental that every time Top Gear or another TV motor programme (in my experience both British and Swedish TV progs) or a motor magazine gets to test a Ferrari or a Lambo that the following type of phrase always seems to appear in some form or another, "unfortunately on this example, the so and so doesn't work" OR "unfortunately on this example, the so and so was poorly finished" OR "unfortunately on this example, the so and so wasn't fitted as standard"


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> German cars made in Mexico are German cars, not Mexican cars.


That all depends on two factors

1. why they are being made in Mexico
2. and by whom they are being made.

This is due to the fact that many car makes now have wholly owned overseas subsidiaries

Ford UK and Ford Germany make British and Gemran cars not American cars. I doubt that more than 5% of the US population has seen a German or British Ford on American roads. The product line is compleltey different.

I agree though that the German VWs made in Mexico are made to and for German specs NOT for the Mexican market, so they are still German.

The best bumper sticker I ever saw was no the back of a Nissan in the late 80s, it had a Union Jack and the text "Buy British, Buy Nissan" And it was a popular sticker, saw it many times.

A lot of the smaller chevvies running round the US now are made in e.g. Spain and Korea and are simply rebadged Kias. Some are even rebadged, reworked SAABs. So there I agree with you, those are GM cars made for the American market they're not Spanish or Korean cars....unless you put a Kia badge on the front :icon_smile_big:


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

That's really getting into deeper and more complicated matters than we really need to, or at least that I wanted to. I think your 5% estimate is a gross overestimate, by the way.

The wholly-owned overseas subsidiaries are completely responsible for their own local markets. The Ford UK and Ford Germany cars have no claim to being American because FoMoCo had very little, or more likely nothing, to do with them. But I'd maintain that a Ford UK car is a British car regardless of where it's made.

Speaking of wholly-owned overseas subsidiaries, it also depends on what that subsidiary does. For example, going back to my Honda example, in the US we have American Honda Motor Company. It is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Honda, the Japanese company. But American Honda Motor Company doesn't design vehicles for the American market; they just facilitate sales, service, distribution, marketing, etc. So I believe the American-made Honda Accord is still a Japanese product. And I still believe the Gerber Hinderer is an American product.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> The wholly-owned overseas subsidiaries are completely responsible for their own local markets. The Ford UK and Ford Germany cars have no claim to being American because FoMoCo had very little, or more likely nothing, to do with them. But I'd maintain that a Ford UK car is a British car regardless of where it's made.


I totally agree, that's exactly what I'm saying. I think we're agreeing with each other here on all points but not fully realising it  The horrors of internet (mis)communication


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> But American Honda Motor Company doesn't design vehicles for the American market; they just facilitate sales, service, distribution, marketing, etc. So I believe the American-made Honda Accord is still a Japanese product.


I agree again, if American Honda is simply selling pre-designed, pre-speced vehicles to the US market then they're not American cars, they're still Japanese, regardless of where they're built.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

With the global market phenomena, country of origin is merely an economic term at this point, not an indicator of quality (though it may force a higher quality... see below). It may however be an indicator of specific safety standards for it's specific market.

Shifting gears from cars to knives... In the case of Gerber, they are a *moderate* quality knife company. I used to sell their gear, and the general consensus was they were a good product for the price. The price of course was low because of its country of origin. If it was manufactured inside the US, it would have been significantly higher, and therefore the knives/tools would have been overpriced for what they were.

Within the Multi-tool arena, they also had the ability to deliver quantity of product. Something that US based companies tend to be a little more stretched on. This is speaking from personal experience in a supply and demand field (government acquisitions of military arms). Companies like Benchmade, & GG&G required significantly more lead time for similar amounts of product, and were not able to maintain similar levels of stocking inventory.

The "Made in the USA" tag required extremely high quality _for its price_, which resulted in supply shortfalls.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I agree again, if American Honda is simply selling pre-designed, pre-speced vehicles to the US market then they're not American cars, they're still Japanese, regardless of where they're built.


Right.. But Toyota is designing cars for the American market, and building them in the US. Japanese car company, American car....

Some of the last Saturns (GM) were german designed and re-decoed for the American market (but still have a distinct german feel). What are they?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Apatheticviews said:


> Some of the last Saturns (GM) were german designed and re-decoed for the American market (but still have a distinct german feel). What are they?


Like I wrote earlier, when I wrote GM rahter than American, they remain GM wherever they are in the world. I think many GM models are exempted from being given a nationality tag actually.

GM recently sold the Swedish SAAB to the Dutch Spyker, but they're still made in Sweden to Swedish specs.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Apatheticviews said:


> Right.. But Toyota is designing cars for the American market, and building them in the US. Japanese car company, American car....
> 
> Some of the last Saturns (GM) were german designed and re-decoed for the American market (but still have a distinct german feel). What are they?


Are the Toyotas being designed in America or in Japan?

I'm just trying to get a sense of how to determine what nationality a product "is". We've shown it can't be based on where the product was made. I'm not sure which Toyota model you're referring to, but I've never known anyone (including the automotive press) to think of any Toyota as an American car. So does where the product was designed determine what nationality it is? Or where the location of the company's headquarters are, or the subsidiary that designed it? Or could it possibly be where the profits wind up, does that have anything to do with determining what nationality a product is?

I think that maybe it's not any one thing, it's too complicated for that.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> I think that maybe it's not any one thing, it's too complicated for that.


True dat!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Are the Toyotas being designed in America or in Japan?
> 
> I'm just trying to get a sense of how to determine what nationality a product "is". We've shown it can't be based on where the product was made. I'm not sure which Toyota model you're referring to, but I've never known anyone (including the automotive press) to think of any Toyota as an American car. So does where the product was designed determine what nationality it is? Or where the location of the company's headquarters are, or the subsidiary that designed it? Or could it possibly be where the profits wind up, does that have anything to do with determining what nationality a product is?
> 
> I think that maybe it's not any one thing, it's too complicated for that.


Let's use the FJ Cruiser as an example. It's a full sized SUV, designed for the American market (built in China off Japanese specs). It was based off the Land Cruiser model, which has been heavily "adjusted" over the years, and can best be described as a global vehicle at this point, whose origins were asian military in nature (Philippines/Japan/China).


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

'Made in Taiwan' (ROC) nearly always means higher labour costs than assembling products in mainland China (PRC). I don't think there is any difference in the quality and workmanship of products manufactured in either place. Many ROC technology companies do most of their manufacturing in the mainland now, e.g. Foxconn, Asus, Acer. MSI. 

BTW low quality sweatshop manufacturing can happen anywhere in the world, e.g. Primark which has some of it's sweatshops in Manchester and London, UK.


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