# Button-Down Collar Shirts with Suits and Ties - Not OK? What say you?



## rayalexsmith (Oct 4, 2005)

Yesterday I posted an article I wrote for The Wall Street Journal about shirt collars and the part that seemed to generate the most comments and questions was about whether button-down shirts should or shouldn't be worn with suits and ties.

Link to the story is here: 
https://online.wsj.com/article_emai...TAzMDIwNDEyNDQyWj.html?mod=wsj_valettop_email

The menswear retailers and shirt brands I interviewed frowned on button-downs being worn with suits and ties, viewing those shirts as more sporty - (they were ok with a sport coat and tie and a button-down, and some allowed for non-oxford button-down shirts being worn with a suit but not enthusiastically).

What say you all?


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## Marley (Apr 4, 2008)

I have always thought of the button-down collar was best used either stand-alone (no tie, crew/v-neck sweater, etc.) or the base layer for a business casual look (blazer/tie/wool gaberdine pants, etc.).

I like suits that look as clean and sharp as possible. Less is more IMHO, and a sharp, well pressed, high thread-count shirt with a straight collarr (and no buttons) is best.

If you feel that you just have to get that collar nailed down, a collar with hidden buttons under the ends works well.

Just my $.02.

Steffan


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Mr. Smith, my main problem was that you didn't have a consistent position in the article -- in one paragraph you state it is "traditionally a no-no" as if it's a widely accepted_ fact _yet later say "some purists" don't like it -- and didn't cite where those positions came from. And that you rarely respond, if ever, to constructive criticism from these forums when posting links to your articles. But I'm glad you did this time. 

If worn with suits and ties, they should ideally be of a dressier fabric like pinpoint, broadcloth, or _royal_ oxford (which has a more refined appearance than plain oxford). But this is assuming they are fine worsted city suits and not linen, cotton, or wool tweed which lend themselves well to a more casual shirt.

I still believe it's a matter of choice. I'll again point out that some of the nattiest dressers of the 20th century wore button-down collars with suits. It's all about how you wear it. Cary Grant even managed to pull off french cuffs with a button-down collar while wearing a double breasted suit! I believe it was a custom shirt made from broadcloth.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I say the menswear retailers and shirt manufacturers you talked to don't wear my suits and I regularly do wear button down collars, as well as point collars with my suits. By a wide margin, the button down collars see the most wear time! The only people I have to please in such endeavors is my wife and myself!


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## rayalexsmith (Oct 4, 2005)

Thank you Jovan. I can see where the two statements would seem inconsistent. I also see your point about "if worn with suits." I wasn't aware of Cary Grant wearing them with suits and ties so thanks.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Don't forget Fred Astaire. Two prominent examples. I'm sure I can find more if I do some digging.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

This has been hashed out a bunch of times on the forum. There are staunch supporters on either side, but the bottom line is that the button-down/suit combo is regarded as traditional business wear in the U.S. It might not be technically "proper" in every respect, but it is certainly appropriate and even de rigeur in certain areas of the country. Just to kill two birds with one stone, "tassel-loafer" can replace" button-down" in all instances of this conversation and the outcome is the same.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Mr. Smith you should sit down with Arkirshner and have a wide ranging discussion on the state of mens fashion. Who knows, you might get some ideas for future articles. At the least, you'll have a number of quote-worthy comments. While you're at it, Balfour and Flanderian would be good sources as well. All of these guys know more than the "experts" you quoted in your most recent article that you've written for the WSJ. I'm serious.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Jovan said:


> Don't forget Fred Astaire. Two prominent examples. I'm sure I can find more if I do some digging.


While these pictures are not necessarily representative, in Boyer's book, Fred Astair Style, of the images in which the collar was clear, out of 19 pictures of him in suits I counted suits:6 BDs. (I did not count 1 picture from a movie in which he is playing a gangster in which he wore a black BD shirt, an obvious costume). I believe Gary Grant's percentage of BDs are substantialy lower.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Mr. Smith you should sit down with Arkirshner and have a wide ranging discussion on the state of mens fashion. Who knows, you might get some ideas for future articles. At the least, you'll have a number of quote-worthy comments. While you're at it, Balfour and Flanderian would be good sources as well. All of these guys know more than the "experts" you quoted in your most recent article that you've written for the WSJ. I'm serious.


You flatter me, (and made my day), but I fear you have attributed to me a higher level of expertise than I deserve; something like the Peter Principle applied to attribution. I would like to use your kind words as a jumping off point for comments on three subjects, the difference between internet "expertise" and academic historical expertise, the job of the journalist in writing a feature piece on men's clothing, and, with reference to classic and traditional men's clothing, who would be in my Rolodex, were I a journalist.

I do have a 1;30 engagement and so will leave off here, to return later.

First, what about button-downs? In Darwin 101 one of the key insights was that new species often originate in geographical isolation from the majority population of the species. The same is true of human customs. The divergence of the UK and US in pronunciation of our common language over the last 200 years is one example. The metamorphosis of Latin into the different Romance languages is another. Before WWII button downs were not worn with suits. Yes, there were exceptions, Fred Astaire being the most prominent, but he was an entertainer and entertainers, then as now, are entitled to dress a bit differently. The significant point is that almost invariably button downs were not worn with suits. How do we know? Apparel Arts is generally recognized as the chronicler of men's dress during the golden age before WWII. The AA illustration and text do not show button downs with suits. There are spread, pin, contrast point, forward point, and club but not button downs.

Following WWII a new species of dress came out of New England, referred to on this site as Trad. One element that distinguished this species from the older one is the button downs were worn with suits. Here is a young William Buckley,https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...b=13argi83o&sigi=12crlffej&.crumb=tvEy1pkKNfj yes he was once young, in suit and button downs. This new species, Trad, has co-existed with the classic for the last 60 years. Regional differences resulted in different ways of looking at the two species. New England was the stronghold of Trad, NY the stronghold of classical. Regional differences were stronger then than they are now. Those of us old enough remember JFK 's Boston accent. Indeed, in 1970 John Kerry spoke with the same accent. Today, even John Kerry,a man brought up with a strong Boston accent, sounds much more like the average TV speech that is now predominant throughout the country. Today one can find BDs with suits all over, yet there are still those who maintain the customs of classical dress, and they don't care for button downs with suits. One can gather from Mr. Smith's piece that a large majority of New Yorkers hold this opinion.

6:30
will continue,

8:00
maybe not, I've been rambling. I do want to comment on Mr. Smith's piece. (My undergrad degree is from the Scrips J School, not Columbia, but not bad). While you do not have to be a good journalist to work at Rupert Murdoch' TV network, (in fact it would be an impediment), you still have to be a major league to work for the WSJ. (not including the editorial staff) 
The piece was very well written, well sourced, well illustrated with Didion, Warren Buffet and others. The piece flowed, was easy to read, and most important for a feature article, it was entertaining. Those who criticize his piece might have a point if, instead of a feature, it was submitted as academic research. The sources he chose and quoted gave varied ,on point insights, from the sources viewpoint. In a few minutes the reader learns, more collars are now offered, merchants are experimenting in creating collars that will look good unbuttoned, at high end shirt merchants the spread collar is most popular, tweeds and BDs go together, a history of detachable, along with a slideshow including one giant, (Warren Buffet), five dwarfs, and Bono.

My only raised eyebrow is Mr. Smith's referring to those who frown on button downs with suits as "purists". Instead of "purists", it might be more accurate to call them "adherents of the classical school", but such phrases, accurate though they may be, do not belong in feature stories.

My own view is that just as tweeds go with button downs, button downs also go with undarted suits in a "Trad" cut.* Alan Flusser recognized this back in the late 80s in his book Clothes and the Man where, as one of 20 pictured waredrobe examples, he paired a gray flannel suit, which he called "a symbol of America in the 1950's" with a button down. That I do not care for button downs with 2 button darted suits, makes me, in the piece's terminology, a "purist". While I don't like being called a "purist", I understand that that "purist" is used by Mr. Smith as shorthand for a concept that otherwise would take many words to explain. Were he writing for the New Yorker the space to explicate would be available, in the WSJ , not only is the space not there, an explication, accurate though it might be, would sabotage the flow of the piece.

* Besides "trad" suits, button downs, to my mind, go with poplin, linen, or seersucker summer suits.

With great humility, regards,

Alan


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> While these pictures are not necessarily representative, in Boyer's book, Fred Astair Style, of the images in which the collar was clear, out of 19 pictures of him in suits I counted suits:6 BDs. (I did not count 1 picture from a movie in which he is playing a gangster in which he wore a black BD shirt, an obvious costume). I believe Gary Grant's percentage of BDs are substantialy lower.


I definitely recall him wearing BDs with suits in a number of movies. Funny enough, for one movie that took place in the '30s, he had a disagreement with the costume designer over BDs worn with suits. They felt it was "too American '50s", yet in fact Grant himself wore such a combination as a young lad in that decade!


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)




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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> This has been hashed out a bunch of times on the forum. There are staunch supporters on either side, but the bottom line is that the button-down/suit combo is regarded as traditional business wear in the U.S. It might not be technically "proper" in every respect, but it is certainly appropriate and even de rigeur in certain areas of the country. Just to kill two birds with one stone, "tassel-loafer" can replace" button-down" in all instances of this conversation and the outcome is the same.


This post pretty much nails the subject.

I'd suggest finding the previous threads on the subject, which are pretty voluminous.

Just to hit my own key point: if Wall Street lawyers in the '80s and '90s weren't following this supposed "rule" against button-down collars with suits, who ever has? The supposed rule is just a fictitious invention.


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## Scottyb06 (Jan 9, 2013)

My three cents (I'm now charging more due to the recent tax increase): Button down shirts are acceptable in three ways: 1) when worn on their own with jeans or khakis, 2) when work under a sweater or similar type of 'overshirt', or 3) with a sportcoat by itself or with a 'country' type tie which would work with a tweed jacket or sorts. I think they look simply awful with a professional suit. Just an hour ago I walked by a younger guy (early 20's) who must be here for an interview (we are a casual environment, even more so on Fridays). He was wearing a professional Navy suit, decent tie, and a button-down collar. I'd cut him a break because he's young, but if he was older and applying for a job like mine I would question how he would dress with the level of executives I interact with.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Scotty: How about we say that this "rule" only goes for interviewing in a suit, then? I had a few interviews last year and didn't wear a button-down with my suit. That's because I was playing it safe, though. Charcoal suit, white spread collar shirt, red tie.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Scotty: How about we say that this "rule" only goes for interviewing in a suit, then? I had a few interviews last year and didn't wear a button-down with my suit. That's because I was playing it safe, though. Charcoal suit, white spread collar shirt, red tie.


I don't even agree with that. I've worn a (white, pinpoint) BD to every interview I can remember and it's never been an issue. Then again, I'm in the Northeast. If there's going to be a rule, it should be "No BDs with suits if you will be attending a job interview conducted by Scottyb06."


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Button down & tie is also very common in the UK. Traditional even.


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## mhdena (Jan 4, 2008)

EP said:


> View attachment 6663
> View attachment 6664


The one on the left opening up is where the problem is, IMO. These even look bad with sport coats and ties.

Pat Riley used to wear ones that laid down, even more than the one above on the right.

If you don't have those like Pat Riley had,it looks tacky to me with a suit and tie.

YMMV of course.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> I don't even agree with that. I've worn a (white, pinpoint) BD to every interview I can remember and it's never been an issue. Then again, I'm in the Northeast. If there's going to be a rule, it should be "No BDs with suits if you will be attending a job interview conducted by Scottyb06."


I find myself compelled to agree yet again. And it's not just the Northeast: indeed, it worked fine for Dorsey & Whitney, which I'm fairly confident has some vague association with Minneapolis.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

mhdena said:


> The one on the left opening up is where the problem is, IMO. These even look bad with sport coats and ties.
> 
> Pat Riley used to wear ones that laid down, even more than the one above on the right.
> 
> ...


That's very interesting to hear. The collar "opening up" is referred to as collar "roll" and is a much-coveted feature for those in the trad forum. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth goes on over there bemoaning the disappearance of collars with decent roll and the overabundance of BD collars that lay flat.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

hardline_42 said:


> I don't even agree with that. I've worn a (white, pinpoint) BD to every interview I can remember and it's never been an issue. Then again, I'm in the Northeast. If there's going to be a rule, it should be "No BDs with suits if you will be attending a job interview conducted by Scottyb06."


:icon_smile_big:

I will amend my earlier statement by saying that I have, in fact, worn a button-down collar to an interview -- if the dress code is business casual. I was also wearing a sack navy blazer.



Earl of Ormonde said:


> Button down & tie is also very common in the UK. Traditional even.


And the mystery deepens! Most of the traditional English shirtmakers only seem to sell them as sport shirts.



mhdena said:


> The one on the left opening up is where the problem is, IMO. These even look bad with sport coats and ties.
> 
> Pat Riley used to wear ones that laid down, even more than the one above on the right.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid you are mistaken. The best button-down collars, _especially_ ones worn with a sport coat and tie, roll like that. They've been that way since Brooks Brothers introduced them in 1896.

The collar he's wearing with the grey suit has the least amount of roll acceptable. If what you say is true, it seems to me that Pat Riley's shirtmaker just doesn't know how to make a button-down collar properly. But I can't find any pictures of him wearing a button-down. He's either in a shark fin style (not something I particularly like) or spread collars (a big improvement over the former).

I can see why, logically, you'd think that button-down collars should lay flat. But it just doesn't hold up to anyone who knows a lot about the collar.


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## mhdena (Jan 4, 2008)

Jovan said:


> :icon_smile_big:
> 
> I will amend my earlier statement by saying that I have, in fact, worn a button-down collar to an interview -- if the dress code is business casual. I was also wearing a sack navy blazer.
> 
> ...


Like I said, YMMV

Just because Brooks Brothers made em doesn't mean I need to like them.

I'm thankful other styles are and have been available.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

mhdena said:


> Just because Brooks Brothers made em doesn't mean I need to like them.


My God, the freedom! The unbridled freedom!! :icon_smile_big:


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

I wouldn't wear a button down collar shirt with a suit. Ever. I'd also avoid them with a navy blazer. With a more casual sportcoat - okay.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

rayalexsmith said:


> The menswear retailers and shirt brands I interviewed frowned on button-downs being worn with suits and ties, viewing those shirts as more sporty - (they were ok with a sport coat and tie and a button-down).


This is my view on the matter.


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## Scottyb06 (Jan 9, 2013)

Sorry if I offended you guys - I'm not saying that I wouldn't hire the guy because he wore a button-down shirt, I'm just saying that I thought it would look better if he didn't. If I were interviewing him I would most certainly place primary importance on his skills, abilities, and experience, not his clothing. That said, the last time we had an opening I was surprised at how unprofessionally some of the candidates dressed which made me question how they would interact in high-level situations. I'm not talking about a button-down vs. no button-down collar here, I'm talking about people who didn't even wear a suit or wore a shirt which looked like they ironed it with a rock. Again, just my lens - I don't like the look of a suit with a button-down collar. That doesn't mean that other people don't like it or perhaps prefer it.


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## Geezer (Apr 22, 2010)

As an Englishman, I would never think badly of an American for wearing a button-down with a suit because I have always thought that Americans just do that. 

Or a Continental, because we alll know they dress oddly and cannot help it, poor things.

I might though think badly of a Brit wearing one. 

My impression is that there was a late 1980s/early 90s fad here for that look inspired by American films and TV and the Preppy Handbook, but that it had its day a long time ago. Certainly I rarely see them in real life here, except as casual wear (which is how I wear them). But I will confess back then to sometimes - not often - wearing a bespoke English suit, Press OCBD and Brooks No1 stripe as a sort of knowingly transatlantic look, inspired by the idea of Americans buying suits on the Row but, once home, pairing them with American classic staples.

As someone else said, this is like the loafers (or dare I say bluchers) with suits debate. Some regard it as wrong, others do not, and there are plenty of predecents and current real world examples to show that it is acceptable in society at large even if not in some corners of the internet, making it largely a matter of personal choice, not an issue about "rules". My personal choice being don't do it. But it's not a mortal sin,either.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Scottyb06 said:


> Sorry if I offended you guys - I'm not saying that I wouldn't hire the guy because he wore a button-down shirt, I'm just saying that I thought it would look better if he didn't. If I were interviewing him I would most certainly place primary importance on his skills, abilities, and experience, not his clothing. That said, the last time we had an opening I was surprised at how unprofessionally some of the candidates dressed which made me question how they would interact in high-level situations. I'm not talking about a button-down vs. no button-down collar here, I'm talking about people who didn't even wear a suit or wore a shirt which looked like they ironed it with a rock. Again, just my lens - I don't like the look of a suit with a button-down collar. That doesn't mean that other people don't like it or perhaps prefer it.


I don't think any offense was taken. This is a long-standing point of contention for even very experienced members. But it's best not to claim that something is "wrong" when what we really mean is "I don't like it." As you put it, when compared to what else is out there, the presence of two tiny buttons on a collar is pretty low on the sartorial Richter.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

RogerP said:


> I wouldn't wear a button down collar shirt with a suit. Ever. I'd also avoid them with a navy blazer. With a more casual sportcoat - okay.


A 3/2 sack blazer and button-down go together like peas and carrots!



Scottyb06 said:


> Sorry if I offended you guys - I'm not saying that I wouldn't hire the guy because he wore a button-down shirt, I'm just saying that I thought it would look better if he didn't. If I were interviewing him I would most certainly place primary importance on his skills, abilities, and experience, not his clothing. That said, the last time we had an opening I was surprised at how unprofessionally some of the candidates dressed which made me question how they would interact in high-level situations. I'm not talking about a button-down vs. no button-down collar here, I'm talking about people who didn't even wear a suit or wore a shirt which looked like they ironed it with a rock. Again, just my lens - I don't like the look of a suit with a button-down collar. That doesn't mean that other people don't like it or perhaps prefer it.


No offence taken.

Someone else said nearly the same thing to me when I showed up for an interview. I seemed to be one of the few under-30s to make an effort. Sad. Dressing for business should be something taught in home ec or enterpreneurship classes, because obviously the parents aren't teaching it!



hardline_42 said:


> I don't think any offense was taken. This is a long-standing point of contention for even very experienced members. But it's best not to claim that something is "wrong" when what we really mean is "I don't like it." As you put it, when compared to what else is out there, the presence of two tiny buttons on a collar is pretty low on the sartorial Richter.


Well said. When there's so many competing views on the matter, perhaps it is best to chalk such things up to personal preference.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

*Shoulder 'Dent'?*



EP said:


> View attachment 6663


Off subject, but it appears that Cary Grant's right shoulder/arm, in the quote above, displays a 'dent', which, normally, indicates a bad fit. On the contrary, in this case, because the width of the shoulder line balances with the size of Grant's head. (I believe it was the case that Grant had the shoulder line on his suits wider because, indeed, his natural shoulder line was narrow in relation to his head size; and, if I recall, Flusser said this was a way to determine if the shoulders of a suit fit or not.)

Back on subject: what I like with button-downs is the roll of the collar; however, this can be achieved, in a way, with a tab collar, and that is what I have personally worn in the past rather than a button-down.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I just figured it was his position. He appears to be mid-speech there. Who knows what he's doing with his arm below camera eye?

If well-tailored, it shouldn't have those dents when standing straight, whether or not they are extended beyond the wearer's own shoulders. The only reason I get them on one side is because my right shoulder is slightly lower than the other.


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## tommyd (Jan 5, 2013)

I know I'm a noob to the site. But, it seems obvious that if you are ever in doubt, don't wear the BD. No one ever looks at a guy in a suit and says, "I can't believe he doesn't wear a button down collar." However, it does seem that some may say(or think), "I can't believe this guy is wearing a button down with a suit."


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

RogerP said:


> I wouldn't wear a button down collar shirt with a suit. Ever. I'd also *avoid them with a navy blazer*. With a more casual sportcoat - okay.


Any agreement from the experts on the bolded?


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Scottyb06 said:


> Sorry if I offended you guys -


Well I'm not speaking to you anymore!


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

hardline_42 said:


> That's very interesting to hear. The collar "opening up" is referred to as collar "roll" and is a much-coveted feature for those in the trad forum. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth goes on over there bemoaning the disappearance of collars with decent roll and the overabundance of BD collars that lay flat.


When I bought a shirt from Luxire, I specified the roll - and got one


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

RogerP said:


> I wouldn't wear a button down collar shirt with a suit. Ever. I'd also avoid them with a navy blazer. With a more casual sportcoat - okay.


I'm sorry Rog, but that position is so extreme it made me shake my head to clear it. Navy blazer, cream-to-white trousers and white BD shirt _is_ the California tuxedo. Out here it almost doesn't get more proper than that. Regional differences, I suppose, but really?


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

BTW Wall Street's standard uniform before dress-down was grey sack suit, OCBD in blue or white, etc. (I observed that unlike in Britain where one's style evolved as one moved up the corporate ladder, in the US, the uniform remained unchanged, but the components just cost progressively more.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

NO. Just don't do it. If you like BDs wear them with a blazer or sports jacket and you will look very nice. If you really want to look sharp you won't do it. OTOH, if you want to look more like a disheveled professor then make sure you wear horn rimmed spectacles (preferably tortoise shell) and tassel loafers to complete the "look." At least that way you don't look like you should know better - it gives the appearance you were born into it - and everyone accepts you can't fight genetics!


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

OCBD goes with anything. My shirts are about 50/50 but I never wear anything but BD with a v-neck sweater or odd jacket. My last interview was around 1972 and if I ever have another one I'll pay attention to what they are wearing. It's going to be nice when they need you a lot more that you need them.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Interesting to read what folks have to say about this periodically reappearing topic.

I would just add that in Malloy's How to Dress for Success his stated aim was to encourage people to emulate the clothing style of the eastern establishment, the Ivy League. In that light OCBD's are quite appropriatly worn with suits. 

For a number of years my office uniform (in a large municipal governmetn setting) consisted of four or five suits in rotation, several LL Bean blue OCBD's and black LL Bean penny loafers. And, of course ties, dark socks etc. The only people signiificantly better dressed were the elected officials and lawyers representing major corporations.

I no longer go to an office and am finding that I prefer traditional business and dress up clothing when I have occasion to wear it. I have a life time supply of OCBD's, ranging from old US-made LL Bean OCBD's to new Mercer US-made OCBD's.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

How about with a notch-lapel tuxedo?


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

:icon_headagainstwal:icon_headagainstwal:icon_headagainstwal


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

drlivingston said:


> How about with a notch-lapel tuxedo?


I chuckled. :icon_smile_big:
Someone will be along shortly with a picture of a Rat Pack member wearing an OCBD with a dinner jacket, but definitely not with a notch lapel!


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

*Fred Astaire







*


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

hardline_42 said:


> I chuckled. :icon_smile_big:
> Someone will be along shortly with a picture of a Rat Pack member wearing an OCBD with a dinner jacket, but *definitely not with a notch lapel*!


*Oh, no? * :icon_smile:


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

^ Gentlemen, we have just reached the end of the internet.


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

hardline_42 said:


> ^ Gentlemen, we have just reached the end of the internet.


Or the definitive conclusion that Google will find whatever you want. :icon_smile:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Jovan said:


> :icon_smile_big:
> 
> And the mystery deepens! Most of the traditional English shirtmakers only seem to sell them as sport shirts.


You'll have to explain what you mean by sport shirt. I have seen plenty BD business shirts on sale.


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Scottyb06 said:


> I'd cut him a break because he's young, but if he was older and applying for a job like mine I would question how he would dress with the level of executives I interact with.


Fair enough. I know that when it comes to positions where one will be expected to interact with executives of a certain level, I'm reluctant to hire someone who ends sentences with prepositions.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> You'll have to explain what you mean by sport shirt. I have seen plenty BD business shirts on sale.


Alpha-sized, without neck or sleeve measurements.


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## Malabar (Nov 9, 2012)

I suppose the button-down shirt is acceptable with suit if it is made of luxurious fabric and clean solid colour - white, pale blue or so, with hard collar and cuffs. Recently I had received two PLR shirts from "dress shirts" section (!) - both are too soft and vivid to wear with suit, but look noce with chinos and navy blazer, and fit the light unlined PLR heraldic ties. For us it makes a true "american" look.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Alpha-sized, without neck or sleeve measurements.


Still not 100% sure what you mean Alpha-sized?. BUT in Europe BD shirts in specific sizes are common all over, plain, ocbd, striped, checked. Most of my busness shirts are BD.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Malabar said:


> the button-down shirt is acceptable with suit


Period! Always has been, always will be.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

12345Michael54321 said:


> Fair enough. I know that when it comes to positions where one will be expected to interact with executives of a certain level, I'm reluctant to hire someone who ends sentences with prepositions.


Very funny - you sniffed a hint of pretense, and shot it down with impeccable accuracy! The laughter you elicited made it a bit more difficult for me to button my collar...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Still not 100% sure what you mean Alpha-sized?. BUT in Europe BD shirts in specific sizes are common all over, plain, ocbd, striped, checked. Most of my busness shirts are BD.


S-M-L-XL etc


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Oldsarge said:


> I'm sorry Rog, but that position is so extreme it made me shake my head to clear it. Navy blazer, cream-to-white trousers and white BD shirt _is_ the California tuxedo. Out here it almost doesn't get more proper than that. Regional differences, I suppose, but really?


This strikes you as extreme? Really? Hey, I'm expressing my opinion - my preference - not trying to impose some inviolable rule upon others. Button down collar shirts strike me as standing on the border between dress and casual. As such, I wouldn't choose to wear one with a suit, or with a navy blazer - the latter being more formal / dressy than, say, a tweed sports coat. If others make a different choice, that's fine by me. I wouldn't pass judgment upon their character or make a hiring decision based upon that choice. THAT would be extreme.


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