# My enemies enemies



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Very, very Strange developments at my workplace in Sweden in the year 2012!!


It's odd the kind of allegiances that crop up in the workplace or that people expect from their co-workers. 

I am, as some of you know, a London-Irish Roman Catholic and I live in Sweden. I am the only practicing Roman Catholic at my workplace of over 300. 

There are quite a few devout C of S Lutherans (Church of Sweden)

Then the huge majority of Swedes here are cultural Lutherans, who never attend church - and are for all intents and purposes atheist or agnostic, and amongst those a vocal handful of secular humanists, as well as some mystical agnostics.

Then about a dozen Freemasons (all High Church C of S, almost Anglicans, many of them Crypto-Catholics), a few Muslims, and a few Orthodox (Bulgarian, Russian, Ukrainian, Georgian) 

And finally there is a large growing group of Charismatic Pentecostals, about 2 dozen.
Now it was discovered a month or so ago that these Pentecostals had for almost a year been holding prayer meetings during working hours and in bookable meeting rooms in the workplace - religious practice in the workplace is illegal under Swedish law. 

The management found out and put a stop to it immediately, or so they thought.

But it started up again, then all of a sudden, about 2 weeks ago, I find myself in what I imagine might have resembled some kind of surreal 16th century religious intolerance scenario when half a dozen Freemasons and mystical agnostic types all individually confided in me, telling me about it and expecting rage and disgust from me and expecting me to rip off my shirt Superman style and reveal some sort of super-Roman Catholic Vatican Crusader cross on my chest to go on some sort of Holy War (in the workplace) to stop "these extremist Christians" (their words not mine) from holding their meetings.

I think they expected some kind of Catholic, Freemason, mystical agnostic alliance against Low Church charismatic Christians, with pleas to me like "James can't you as a Catholic get on their case" "Can't you do something to stop it" 

Really? It's 2012!!! What are you expecting the Irish Inquisition??? Nobody expects the Irish Inquisition! :icon_smile_big: Shall I splash some Holy Water on them, read from the Missale Romanum??? 

All I could do was laugh. But I was quite surprised, no, shocked at how up in arms they all were over a handful of people having private prayer meetings. They're not doing any harm. 

Anyway, I don't expect a major discussion on this, just thought I'd share this recent extremely bizarre and surreal turn of events from my Swedish workplace in very secular Sweden. 

I keep reminding myself it's 2012 not 1512.

Humilis ac devotus in Christo servus
James


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I am a traditionally lapsed Papist myself. I do find the pentecostalists faintly disturbing, however. The obsession with glossolalia has a whiff of blasphemy about it. I do not believe that God's spirit possesses these people and encourages them to gobble like turkeys and flop around on the floor. I believe that they are at best deluding themselves and at worst wholly fraudulent. 

Piety is talking to God but insanity is when He talks back. :icon_smile_wink:




Edit: as you may see, above, Caritas and Agape never really sank in when I studied the Catechism. :redface:


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

I think we've finally reached a topic where I am hesitant to offer an opinion. In the spirit of the season, I just hope it works out for the Earl and his co-workers.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I take it the Winter Festivus party is out then??


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

"The power of Earl compels you... The power of Earl compels you..."


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> What are you expecting the Irish Inquisition??? Nobody expects the Irish Inquisition! :icon_smile_big: Shall I splash some Holy Water on them, read from the Missale Romanum???


In fairness, an Irish solution to this particular problem would probably be even more damaging to inter-faith relations and what's more probably lead to local law enforcement involvment! So best I stay out of it! 

That said..... there's always Jimmy Swaggart....


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## CharlesFerdinand (Jun 18, 2010)

Why would they expect help from a Catholic to stamp out prayer meetings, of all things? Or is oppressing religious dissenters something they expect Our Mother the Holy Church does as a matter of course? Is their reasoning somewhat like "_If you want to oppress something, go to the Catholics. They are experts. They invented the Inquisition_"
What with Sweden being Lutheran, I expect that the Catholic Church gets a bad press in history classes in school and so on, but this seems extreme.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

CharlesFerdinand said:


> Why would they expect help from a Catholic to stamp out prayer meetings, of all things? Or is oppressing religious dissenters something they expect Our Mother the Holy Church does as a matter of course? Is their reasoning somewhat like "_If you want to oppress something, go to the Catholics. They are experts. They invented the Inquisition_"
> What with Sweden being Lutheran, I expect that the Catholic Church gets a bad press in history classes in school and so on, but this seems extreme.


A good summary. - Swedes must be much more troubled and puzzling than I gave them credit for.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> In fairness, an Irish solution to this particular problem would probably be even more damaging to inter-faith relations and what's more probably lead to local law enforcement involvment! So best I stay out of it!


LOL!!!! Ain't that the truth, I'd have me own very confusing micro-version of The Troubles going on at work!


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

You guys should try being a Roman Catholic in the very intolerant Bible-belt of Alabama. At least we help race relations down here. They both are in agreement with their hatred of the Vatican.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

CharlesFerdinand said:


> Or is oppressing religious dissenters something they expect Our Mother the Holy Church does as a matter of course? Is their reasoning somewhat like "_If you want to oppress something, go to the Catholics. They are experts. They invented the Inquisition_"


I think that about sums it up Charles. Sweden was probably the last country where Catholicism was illegal for its native citizens. As late as *1873 native Swedes could not convert to Catholicism.

*I get a fair bit of good hearted stick and even admiration from colleagues, who are interested in the RC chruch, especially the Freemasons. But I also get a few shocked looks from some of the more devout Pentecostals, Baptists and Methodists who seem to think I'm some kind of Papal Demon sent out by Opus Dei to smite modern protestants. 

"Conversion to was punished with loss of all civil and perpetual banishment. Foreign who remained in the country to carry on a propaganda were to be punished with severe and heavy fines, and even to be expelled. Conditions did not become better until two hundred years later when, in 1780, King Gustavus III at the request of the Estates granted the free exercise of their religion to "Christians of other faiths" who desired to settle in Sweden for the sake of carrying on commerce or manufactures. In consequence of this, in 1783 appointed a for Sweden, who, however, could effect but littl*e, as up to the year 1860 natives of Sweden were forbidden to enter the under penalty of expulsion from the country. Since the year 1873 members of the national Church who are over eighteen years of age may join other religious . *


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

drlivingston said:


> You guys should try being a Roman Catholic in the very intolerant Bible-belt of Alabama. At least we help race relations down here. They both are in agreement with their hatred of the Vatican.


I don't envy you.

What's the main kirk down there, Anabaptist is it?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Langham said:


> A good summary. - Swedes must be much more troubled and puzzling than I gave them credit for.


Oh yes, they are, believe me, they are.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> In the spirit of the season, I just hope it works out for the Earl and his co-workers.


Thanks.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I take it the Winter Festivus party is out then??


About 10 years ago, some of my colleagues held a two minute silence in a staff room to say prayers for a dead colleague, and that is against Swedish law, and some people complained and reported it.

You see, although there is freedom of religion in Sweden. Freedom from religion is even stronger and strongly legislated for.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

drlivingston said:


> You guys should try being a Roman Catholic in the very intolerant Bible-belt of Alabama. At least we help race relations down here. They both are in agreement with their hatred of the Vatican.


Hey, I thought the only religion in them parts was "Roll Tide!"


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

I'm not too fond of evangelicals, but just using a room for a private meeting, without proselytizing, I'd cut 'em some slack. First time I heard "Brother, are you born again?", right to the manager.

In my amateur study of history, I was rather amazed to find out that right after the beginning of the Reformation, you had better scout ahead if you were travelling through central Europe: IDng yourself as a Calvinist, Lutheran, Catholic etc. in the wrong town was an invite to be municipal illumination... tied up and lit up. Seem to recall the Protestants ignited each other on a pretty regular basis.

I got interested in the subject to try to figure out how we divereged from just "us", to "us and _*them(the worthless bastards!!)" *_Alas, that answer lies too far back in the mists of time.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Hey, I thought the only religion in them parts was "Roll Tide!"


Better not use that as a response to "War Eagle", could lead to civic unrest, i.e., a punch in the snoot


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Hey, I thought the only religion in them parts was "Roll Tide!"


(insert heavy sigh) Auburn alumnus. :cool2:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

phyrpowr said:


> I'm not too fond of evangelicals, but just using a room for a private meeting, without proselytizing, I'd cut 'em some slack.


My view too. However, three problems exist in this case that have upset their co-workers:

1. It is against the law in Sweden i.e. workplace praying
2. The leaders have been going around asking people if they would be interested in joining the prayer meetings
3. This is what borught it to the attention of the management and this is what has annoyed people the most: i.e they aren't just using one of their own offices for it they are using a resource that is open for all employees to book for meetings, thus they are blocking that meeting room for use for work purposes for a couple of hours each time.

The irony is that if they had done it in one of their own offices, no one would be any the wiser and they could probably still carry on without upsetting anyone.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

drlivingston said:


> (insert heavy sigh) Auburn alumnus. :cool2:


Oooops...looks like I stepped in it again. Sorry.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> 1. It is against the law in Sweden i.e. workplace praying
> 2. The leaders have been going around asking people if they would be interested in joining the prayer meetings
> 3. This is what borught it to the attention of the management and this is what has annoyed people the most: i.e they aren't just using one of their own offices for it they are using a resource that is open for all employees to book for meetings, thus they are blocking that meeting room for use for work purposes for a couple of hours each time.
> 
> .


Then it seems to me that they are intentionally proselytizing, with zero regard for the beliefs or lack of of their co-workers let alone the law.

Therefore I'd come down on them like a ton of bricks....


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> Then it seems to me that they are intentionally proselytizing, with zero regard for the beliefs or lack of of their co-workers let alone the law.
> 
> Therefore I'd come down on them like a ton of bricks....


Exactly!

Upper managment did give them a right earful a while ago, but they seem to have disregarded it & started up again.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Upper managment did give them a right earful a while ago, but they seem to have disregarded it & started up again.


Presumably God told them to disregard all Earthly authority. :icon_smile_wink:


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Upper managment did give them a right earful a while ago, but they seem to have disregarded it & started up again.


So if a complaint was made to the relevant authorities and the lack of formal action on the part of your organisation was realised, what are the consequenses? Is it civil or criminal?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> So if a complaint was made to the relevant authorities and the lack of formal action on the part of your organisation was realised, what are the consequenses? Is it civil or criminal?


My understanding is that it is a breach of civil law, but also a total disregard for workplace regulatioons....I am still monitoring developments.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Sounds like folks have to come to you, Earl, because you're a spiritual fellow who nevertheless seems able to follow the law and/or not bother people with your views. Maybe they were hoping you'd say (in Swedish): "Come on, fellows, you know I love the Lord as much as anyone, but you've got to knock this stuff off, or at least quiet down."


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> You see, although there is freedom of religion in Sweden. Freedom from religion is even stronger and strongly legislated for.


That's just where we are headed, Brother!!


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> My understanding is that it is a breach of civil law, but also a total disregard for workplace regulatioons....I am still monitoring developments.


Righteo, but who would they target I wonder? The employer for not dealing with the matter at hand and/or those pesky pentecostal pray-sayers?! Also, what are the consequenses? I assume as it it civil, all they could do is issue fines.

Also, does Sweden observe any traditional Christian holidays as public holidays? If so, how is that dealt with in the context of said laws?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> Also, does Sweden observe any traditional Christian holidays as public holidays? If so, how is that dealt with in the context of said laws?


The law doesn't affect church holidays. And Sweden actually has more church holidays than the UK, including believe it or not the Catholic holiday of Sankta Lucia.

No, what the law is aimed at is the prevention of religious practice in the presence of what can best be described as "captive" audiences i.e. the workplace, schools, colleges, prisons, the military.

No problem with open air religious practice, in the street, parks etc.

But indoors where not everyone shares the same belief and where people are there because they have to be there (schools, work, prison etc) then it is banned.

Related to that is that RE in schools, unlike in our day when RE was actually instruction in our Catholic faith and from the perspective of it, in Sweden it is the history and description of all religions, and teaching from a Christian perpective as a teaching of the faith is not allowed. The history and description of religion in Sweden is taught no different to the history of Europe or maths. The study of actual theological aspects is completely verboten!


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> ...RE in schools, unlike in our day when RE was actually instruction in our Catholic faith and from the perspective of it, in Sweden it is the history and description of all religions, and teaching from a Christian perpective as a teaching of the faith is not allowed. The history and description of religion in Sweden is taught no different to the history of Europe or maths. The study of actual theological aspects is completely verboten!


It is now much like that in the UK state system also, from what I have observed.


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## Malabar (Nov 9, 2012)

The Pentecostals are very, not, VERY strange people. 
What a coincidence, today I`ve read an incredible story - the family of Pentecostals in a small russian town, held a body of their dead father for THREE years, waited he will ressurect!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Okay, the point of the thread was never to go on a Pentecostal witchhunt, or to criticise them as people or to criticise their religious practices, so let's not do that.

The point of me creating the thread was simply to describe the recent strange developments at my workplace, that were so odd that I felt I needed to share them and to relate how during those developments some people (Freemasons, Agnostics, Atheists) saw allies in the strangest of places (a Roman Catholic), when they encountered something they needed help with.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Langham said:


> It is now much like that in the UK state system also, from what I have observed.


Yea, one of my brothers has 2 sons and he's been telling me bits over the years about how it has differed in the UK.


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