# Thoughts on Two Button Notch Tuxedo?



## Brillo (Jun 14, 2009)

I've been looking at getting a new Tuxedo for my wedding and I've noticed that Nordstrom's Saks, etc... seem to mostly carry two button notch tuxedos. I really like the Joseph Abboud two button tuxedo at Nordstroms.

As I'm tall and thin, I like having the first button up a little higher. As I want this tuxedo to last for a while, I want something classic, which leads me to believe I want a one button tuxedo. If I get a one button, I'm likely to go with the JAB version as I think the lapels on the BB are two large.

What do people think of the two button style?


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

People here in the high-brow seats scream and wail about a tux with any more than one button, and they would throw their drinks on you for having a notch.

That being said, I have a two button notch. Love it. The peaks are great, however, I find the notch less flashy and makes a person less flamboyant. With what I generally attend with evening wear, I allow others to step forward.

Reality: 99% of people won't notice or know the difference between notch and shawl or two and one button. If you are with the high brow, buy the one button peak.

PS--check the BLACKTIEGUIDE.COM


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

While it will get you laughed at by many in this forum, out in the world it will be just fine. You will most likely encounter far more notch lapels at a black tie affair than peaks and shawls combined; and with regard to the two buttons, I doubt that very few will ever even make a distinction.

Obviously a sartorial enthusiast will always want a one button peak or shaw (or perhaps a double breasted) and there is nothing wrong with that; but a two button notch, as preu pummel said, is still a fine choice if that's what you want.

Cruiser


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## Mariuslt (Oct 19, 2008)

Welcome to the forum. When your post count reaches 50, there's a good chance you won't want a notch lapel tuxedo anymore. . .


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Mariuslt said:


> Welcome to the forum. When your post count reaches 50, there's a good chance you won't want a notch lapel tuxedo anymore. . .


Disagreed. I have no problem with a notch/step lapel. I do not, however, approve of multipe buttons -whether notch, peak or shawl.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Brillo said:


> I've been looking at getting a new Tuxedo for my wedding and I've noticed that Nordstrom's Saks, etc... seem to mostly carry two button notch tuxedos....What do people think of the two button style?


 It's not the buttons (althought that is a factor) it's the NOTCH LAPEL!!!!   

Haven't you read the Formalwear Chapter of my now down-loadable book, The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes!! 
*Lapels: *_Peaked or shawl lapels are both appropriate, the notched is *not*.

The peaked lapel, single-breasted dinner jacket is the most correct since it's__ derived directly from the original tailcoat, and the shawl has origins from the smoking jacket. _

_The notched lapel has its origins in the common business suit and thus is *never, or less* acceptable for formal dress. 
_
_Notched lapels appearing on formalwear is an effort by modern manufacturers to profit by using standard daytime jacket forms and simply facing the lapels in satin. 
_
_The shawl lapel is a traditional look and is most popular on the summer white dinner jacket. You may want to avoid the shawl if you are on the heavy side since it accentuates roundness._​And the Ask Andy Wedding Guide may be of interest:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/ADVS/WeddingGuide.htm


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

I am really not a fan of 2btn dinner suits. Notch lapels aren't good either.


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

Two things that haven't been covered. First, regardless of feeling on number of buttons, the current vogue for a high button stance will not last. A one-button tuxedo will have a longer life, and flatters all physiques.

Second, this had better be an evening wedding.

As for lapel choice, preference has a lot to do with it. A well-proportioned shawl collar is uncommonly handsome, and a peak lapel is dashing indeed. The notch lapel is a bit more pedestrian. It's not a mortal sin to go notch, but given that peak and shawl lapels are often available at the same price point online, there's no reason not to choose them.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*Don't even think about getting a notch lapel tuxedo ...*

It's true that many won't notice, but there is no sense in doing something wrong because others don't know any better. At my last black tie affair, there was a guy wearing dark brown monk straps with brass buckles. I am certain he thought that no on would notice. But I did.


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Brillo said:


> I want something classic,


Classic is 1b peaked or shawl.


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## Lebewohl (May 21, 2009)

amplifiedheat said:


> Two things that haven't been covered. First, regardless of feeling on number of buttons, the current vogue for a high button stance will not last. A one-button tuxedo will have a longer life, and flatters all physiques.
> 
> Second, this had better be an evening wedding.
> 
> As for lapel choice, preference has a lot to do with it. A well-proportioned shawl collar is uncommonly handsome, and a peak lapel is dashing indeed. The notch lapel is a bit more pedestrian. It's not a mortal sin to go notch, but given that peak and shawl lapels are often available at the same price point online, there's no reason not to choose them.


I understand the concern of the OP. I have a similar physique - tall and thin - and that is why I prefer 3 button suits.

Be that as it may, one button tuxedo's the way to go. I wear a vest with it which should partly address your desire for a high button stance. I haven't been on here long enough to know when to wear a cummerbund and when to go with a vest.

Personally, I won't wear a shawl lapel tuxedo because I spent too much time wearing one as a waiter at a private club.


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## Jake1990 (Jan 5, 2009)

If you truly want to be classic, buy a one button shawl collar or peak lapel. Extra buttons and notch lapels make dinner jackets look just like ordinary suits with some silk stuck on.
What were you intending to do about a waist covering? A low-cut waistcoat looks the best in my opinion, but cummerbunds are all right, particularly if it's going to be hot.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I think a notch lapel is acceptable, but not preferable. If you want two buttons on your dinner jacket, you could get a double breasted one. If you want single breasted, it can't have more than one button. Anything else is not classic. People will buy a 2-button notch lapel dinner jacket because they think it is more conservative (such as a one-button peak lapel suit is not). But a dinner suit is not a business suit, and such conventions do not apply.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Lebewohl said:


> Personally, I won't wear a shawl lapel tuxedo because I spent too much time wearing one as a waiter at a private club.


Not only that but in her best selling book Amy Vanderbilt described the shawl lapel as being no more formal than the notch lapel. Think about it. If we accept the argument that the notch lapel looks too much like a business suit, then I contend that the shawl lapel looks too much like a smoking jacket or, worse yet, a bathrobe lapel.

I think all three choices are fine, but if the notch is to be kicked to the curb then I think the shawl should be right there with it.

Cruiser


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> Not only that but in her best selling book Amy Vanderbilt described the shawl lapel as being no more formal than the notch lapel. Think about it. If we accept the argument that the notch lapel looks too much like a business suit, then I contend that the shawl lapel looks too much like a smoking jacket or, worse yet, a bathrobe lapel.
> 
> I think all three choices are fine, but if the notch is to be kicked to the curb then I think the shawl should be right there with it.


I think the quote you're thinking of is "a less formal alternative along the lines of the shawl collar." The shawl collar looks like a smoking jacket because the tuxedo is no more than a wool smoking jacket.

So, a tuxedo can have a peak lapel and look like a tailcoat, a shawl lapel and look like a smoking jacket, or a notch lapel and look like a business suit. The first connotes pomp and formality, the second, amusement and good company, and the third, work. It's clear to me why the first two are preferable. A tuxedo should look special, and a notch lapel dilutes it a bit.

There is the other argument, that a notch lapel (especially with multiple buttons) implies cost-cutting. I'm all for frugality, but shortcuts are contrary to the spirit of black tie.

Then again, lapel choice is low on the list of modern black-tie evils. Six-button vests and pre-tied bow ties, on the other hand...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Follow the advice of blacktieguide.com. End of thread.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

Jovan said:


> Follow the advice of blacktieguide.com. End of thread.


Or follow the style of Prince Philip.....


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Andy himself had a nice post. Why don't you follow his guidance? If memory serves me correctly he knows some stuff.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

amplifiedheat said:


> So, a tuxedo can have a peak lapel and look like a tailcoat, a shawl lapel and look like a smoking jacket, or a notch lapel and look like a business suit. The first connotes pomp and formality, the second, amusement and good company, and the third, work. It's clear to me why the first two are preferable. A tuxedo should look special, and a notch lapel dilutes it a bit.


This is it.


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## JAGMAJ (Feb 10, 2005)

Taliesin said:


> This is it.


I also agree. Amplifiedheat nailed it on the head. There's a reason that a shawl collar tuxedo looks like a smoking jacket--they both share the same evening entertaining heritage. The notch lapel's heritage, however, is in business. As for the poster who posted about Prince Philip's notch lapel tuxedo, I wouldn't use him as a shining example of sartorial excellence. It seems like he chooses to break the rules on purpose.

For the OP, if you care enough about the "proper" answer to be asking on this forum, then definitely get a one button shawl or peak lapel. If you really don't care what's considered to be correct, why bother asking?


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

JAGMAJ said:


> I also agree. Amplifiedheat nailed it on the head. There's a reason that a shawl collar tuxedo looks like a smoking jacket--they both share the same evening entertaining heritage. The notch lapel's heritage, however, is in business. As for the poster who posted about Prince Philip's notch lapel tuxedo, I wouldn't use him as a shining example of sartorial excellence. It seems like he chooses to break the rules on purpose.
> 
> For the OP, if you care enough about the "proper" answer to be asking on this forum, then definitely get a one button shawl or peak lapel. If you really don't care what's considered to be correct, why bother asking?


I don't disagree with Amplifiedheat. I proposed HRH as an example of the notch lapel working very effectively.

Interesting that your footer seems totally at odds with your views on 'breaking the rules'.


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

Brillo said:


> I really like the Joseph Abboud two button tuxedo at Nordstroms.


This should count for something. In the end, follow your gut. If you try on peak lapels at the store and find you don't like the way they look, don't get one. You want to be happy at your wedding! Now that you know that peak and shawl are more correct, if after reading around and looking at pics your view starts to change, get the one you want and try not to look back.

Just don't buy the Abboud and then keep reading this forum and blacktie.com and then feel like you got the wrong one!!


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## edhillpr (Apr 19, 2007)

Hi & welcome to the forum. 
Some folks will always argue that you don't want to stand out or look better than anyone else, so go with the notch lapel. Well, if I'm wearing something special to the wedding or later in life to celebration events, then I want it to look a bit more special and formal than a business suit. 
Looking back at well dressed men of the 50-60s we see that the peak lapel and shawl lapel were more popular. The one button design looks more formal perhaps.
So my choice would be a peak lapel, single button. I tend to agree with BLACKTIEGUIDE.COMand Andy's earlier post.
Good luck.


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## JAGMAJ (Feb 10, 2005)

Brideshead said:


> I don't disagree with Amplifiedheat. I proposed HRH as an example of the notch lapel working very effectively.
> 
> Interesting that your footer seems totally at odds with your views on 'breaking the rules'.


The problem is that what looks good from a purely aesthetic standpoint is only part of the equation. Khakis and a polo might look flattering on an individual, but it would be a mistake to wear them to a black tie event. There are social rules that also dictate what is appropriate. On the other hand, a person purposely could choose to flaunt the accepted traditions in order to stand out. Personally, I choose to stay within the traditional rules as far as dress goes. I was just saying that a person who asks a question on this forum should expect people to recommend the traditional approach.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

amplifiedheat said:


> Then again, lapel choice is low on the list of modern black-tie evils.


And that's pretty much all I was trying to say. Of course I realize that a sartorial enthusiast or hobbyist is going to insist on a one button peak or shawl lapel. Nothing wrong with that.

My point is that once one leaves the domain of the enthusiast (such as is found in this forum), things like one or two buttons or what type lapel really becomes about as insignificant to others as whether or not one is drinking Scotch or Bourbon at the bar. Outside of the person drinking the drink, who really cares; although I suspect that among a group of Scotch or Bourbon enthusiasts this could be argued for hours on end.

I've previously used the analogy of the Ford Mustang enthusiasts groups. Within these groups it is almost sacriligous to even talk about six cylinder Mustangs, much less own one. Most of those folks consider them to be a bastardization of what a Mustang should be. Yet out in the world at large the six cylinders outsell the eights by a wide margin with most owners of both sixes and eights not even realizing that this is a big deal to a small group of enthusiasts.

I suspect that to 9 out of 10 people (probably more than that) at a black tie event things like buttons and lapels are a non-issue. Perhaps fun to discuss in spirited debate within a forum such as this, but of little consequence outside of the forum. I just don't want to leave someone with the impression that if they show up at a black tie function in a two button jacket or a notch lapel jacket they will be made to feel embarrassed; or conversely if they show up in a one button peak lapel everyone is going to stand back and admire their sartorial wisdom. Most won't even distinguish between the two.

As for me, I think they all look nice when the tuxedo fits properly and is tastefully accessorized.

Cruiser


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I guess I like the traditional tuxedos better, although I have not worn one in over 20 years now. Cruiser probably does have a point.

By the way, Cruiser, when the world ends, and it's all your fault, what will you say then?


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Brideshead said:


>


Thank you, PP. I'll stick with my notch, but use the studs instead of buttons.

My black tie uniform is slightly off center with notch lapels, 2 button, (at this time) black AE wholecuts. The rest is straight forward: marcela front point collar shirt, black hand tied bow tie, black studs, black & silver links, black cumberbund, white linen pocket square.

And it looks fine. But, if I EVER get invited to dine with royalty or extremely upper class, I will buy the patent pumps and peak 1 button jacket. If you are American and attending upper-middle class black tie, or you are attending charities or awards ceremonies, you don't have to be classically perfect with black tie. It helps to be, but it isn't necessary these days unless your superiors are around and they are sartorial nit-pickers.

From the black tie affairs I've been around and in pictures here, I look classic.

Whatever you end up getting, try to get close to the regimented classic look, but for goodness sakes DON'T wear long tie, colored ties or vests or anything, don't try to be clever and wear anything drawing strong attention to the details, and don't ever think about a clip on or pre-tied bow.

Bow ties are SO simple to tie. To tie them well takes some practice and fuss, but a slightly irregular bow tie has never been a shame.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Preu Pummel said:


> Thank you, PP. I'll stick with my notch, but use the studs instead of buttons.
> 
> And it looks fine. But, if I EVER get invited to dine with royalty or extremely upper class, I will buy the patent pumps and peak 1 button jacket. If you are American and attending upper-middle class black tie, or you are attending charities or awards ceremonies, you don't have to be classically perfect with black tie. It helps to be, but it isn't necessary these days unless your superiors are around and they are sartorial nit-pickers.


I agree that there really is little if any practical problem with attending charity and similar black tie events without being classically perfect. But what I don't understand is why one would choose to do so. Are two-button notches less expensive? Can they be worn to the office? I would think that the answer is no to the latter, but perhaps yes to the former? If so, then at least there is a reason. But I question whether the difference in cost is really material. Perhaps the answer is that some folks just think such innovations look better -- pure aesthetics -- in which case we just disagree, but that's what makes the world go around.


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> My point is that once one leaves the domain of the enthusiast (such as is found in this forum), things like one or two buttons or what type lapel really becomes about as insignificant to others as whether or not one is drinking Scotch or Bourbon at the bar. Outside of the person drinking the drink, who really cares; although I suspect that among a group of Scotch or Bourbon enthusiasts this could be argued for hours on end.


Of course, you and I understand that both are inferior to Tennessee whiskey.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

Preu Pummel said:


> People here in the high-brow seats scream and wail about a tux with any more than one button, and they would throw their drinks on you for having a notch.





Cruiser said:


> While it will get you laughed at by many in this forum, out in the world it will be just fine.





Cruiser said:


> I just don't want to leave someone with the impression that if they show up at a black tie function in a two button jacket or a notch lapel jacket they will be made to feel embarrassed...


You fellows seem a bit defensive about this. Still burned by the heat of past discussions of this topic?

Somewhat off-topic, I would wager that one could not find a notch-lapel tuxedo defender on this forum who is not also a notch-lapel tuxedo owner. Except for Sator. Comes across to me as a "defending the validity of my existing investment" phenomenon, similar to what one sees over at Google Finance's message boards.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> But what I don't understand is why one would choose to do so. Are two-button notches less expensive? Can they be worn to the office? I would think that the answer is no to the latter, but perhaps yes to the former?


I purchased that tux before I reached my 50th post on this board.

Oh, the shame. {._.}


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Preu Pummel said:


> I purchased that tux before I reached my 50th post on this board.
> 
> Oh, the shame. {._.}


Now that makes perfect sense. I could easily see how one might do that, and absolutely agree that purchasing another tux just to be more "classically perfect" is completely unnecessary. Good explanation.


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

Taliesin said:


> Somewhat off-topic, I would wager that one could not find a notch-lapel tuxedo defender on this forum who is not also a notch-lapel tuxedo owner. Except for Sator. Comes across to me as a "defending the validity of my existing investment" phenomenon, similar to what one sees over at Google Finance's message boards.


Of course the reverse might be said as well. It may be that those that have been convinced to buy a peak lapel feel the need to defend their perhaps additional investment. Not that I am saying that.

I need to replace my 3 button, notch lapel, side vented "dinner jacket" before my next black tie charity event! A few years ago I knew I liked those features in a business suit and mistakenly applied them to black tie. I immediately regretted the decision after surfing the web for 5 minutes, but I had already worn the tux and was stuck with it. When I do get a new jacket, I am not sure if I will go peak or notch (I think the notch looks better on bigger guys like me), but at least I will be making an informed decision to follow the tradition or not. I generally want to follow tradition once I know it though!


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> By the way, Cruiser, when the world ends, and it's all your fault, what will you say then?


Oops. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

amplifiedheat said:


> Of course, you and I understand that both are inferior to Tennessee whiskey.


I just felt that this would be assumed, not to mention the fact that mere Scotch and Bourbon would not even rise to the level of the discussion if we were talking Tennessee Whiskey. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm with the guys who say peak or shawl doesn't connote business and thus is more appropriate.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Notch is ordinary. 

BT & WT are not ordinary.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I disagree with those who say the notch connotes business. Double breasted suits with peak lapels are just as appropriate for business (though perhaps not currently in America) as notch lapel single breasted suits. Though I don't have a notch lapel dinner jacket, I find them acceptable, though not preferrable. What I don't find acceptable are single breasted dinner jackets with more than one button on the front. Unused buttons on the front add clutter, therefore making the dinner jacket less elegant and less formal.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

J.Marko said:


> Of course the reverse might be said as well. It may be that those that have been convinced to buy a peak lapel feel the need to defend their perhaps additional investment.


Possibly, but I think what's notable is that the peak and shawl have advocates even amongst those who own only one or the other, or neither. Unless I'm mistaken, it seems that only notch lapel tuxedo owners get into defending that style on this forum. The style doesn't seem to have admirers apart from the sunk costs crowd.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Taliesin said:


> The style doesn't seem to have admirers apart from the sunk costs crowd.


Apparently you aren't paying attention to the folks who are wearing notch lapels these days. From what I have observed there numbers include an awful lot of folks for whom cost is no object and who do know the difference. For example the last two U.S. Presidents have favored notch lapels and while you can laugh at their sartorial tastes all you want, the fact is that notch lapels generally outnumber peaks and shawls combined at most black tie functions. This is such a silly debate.

Cruiser


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Taliesin said:


> The style doesn't seem to have admirers apart from the sunk costs crowd.


Sunk costs crowd? You haven't been paying attention here!



Brideshead said:


>


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Personally, I have come to accept that the notched lapel has some place in the whole scheme of things. Let it be worn for very informal evening private affairs but I would avoid wearing it to more serious public ones. I wouldn't get one though cos if I am going to all the trouble of getting a black tie rig that I want to wear with satisfaction, I'd rather have all the details perfect rather than opt for a lower spec. 

I don't see the DoE the patron of all things sartorial IMHO.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Cruiser said:


> Apparently you aren't paying attention to the folks who are wearing notch lapels these days. From what I have observed there numbers include an awful lot of folks for whom cost is no object and who do know the difference. For example the last two U.S. Presidents have favored notch lapels and while you can laugh at their sartorial tastes all you want, the fact is that notch lapels generally outnumber peaks and shawls combined at most black tie functions. This is such a silly debate.
> 
> Cruiser


I found the faulty reasoning here!:
"...awful lot of folks for whom cost is no object and who do know the difference..."​If they are wearing notch lapel tuxedos then they* don't know the difference* whether out of ignorance or they are just too dense to learn!


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Taliesin said:


> Possibly, but I think what's notable is that the peak and shawl have advocates even amongst those who own only one or the other, or neither. Unless I'm mistaken, it seems that only notch lapel tuxedo owners get into defending that style on this forum. The style doesn't seem to have admirers apart from the sunk costs crowd.


Not at all true. I haven't a problem with the notch/step lapel, provided *that there is only one button*. In the same vein, I *do* have a problem with multiple-buttoned peak/double-breasted style and shawl/roll (unless they're double-breasted of course).


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Personally, I have come to accept that the notched lapel has some place in the whole scheme of things. Let it be worn for very informal evening private affairs but I would avoid wearing it to more serious public ones. I wouldn't get one though cos if I am going to all the trouble of getting a black tie rig that I want to wear with satisfaction, I'd rather have all the details perfect rather than opt for a lower spec.
> 
> I don't see the DoE the patron of all things sartorial IMHO.


Sure, but he definitely outclasses our past and current Commander in Chief when it comes to white tie affairs...


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

JibranK said:


> I haven't a problem with the notch/step lapel, provided *that there is only one button*.


But would you recommend it as the best choice to someone looking to buy a tuxedo for the first time? I doubt you would.

My point is that there seems to be a lot of ego-protective rationalizations on this forum for the notch lapel tuxedo, made by those who have already invested in that garment and who (understandably) don't want to buy a whole new one.


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

Matt S said:


> I disagree with those who say the notch connotes business. Double breasted suits with peak lapels are just as appropriate for business (though perhaps not currently in America) as notch lapel single breasted suits. Though I don't have a notch lapel dinner jacket, I find them acceptable, though not preferrable. What I don't find acceptable are single breasted dinner jackets with more than one button on the front. Unused buttons on the front add clutter, therefore making the dinner jacket less elegant and less formal.


I think Matt has a point that peak can be used in business. The other side of the point is that notch was used in formal back in the day. Didn't 19th and early 20th century frock coats and cutaway frock coats often have notch lapels? Just poking around on the internet for a couple minutes I found many examples. See the groom below from 1929. Maybe he had his formal stroller special made to his own crazy bastardized business suit specs, but I doubt it.

If Dinner Jacket was the deformalization of dress clothes, or the formalization of less formal cloths to wear at semi-formal evening events, wouldn't it make sense in the modern context to jazz up the Lounge Coat with its notch collar to wear to semi-formal? I think that may be why it is so common now.

In fact, a bit more poking around makes me think the reason tail coats have peak lapels is because they are double breasted. I like peak lapels on double breasted coats, but they always look a bit odd to me on single breasted coats. The frock or cutaway/stroller is a single breasted, so gets a notch collar. Maybe this is another reason why many now days seem to prefer the notch lapel on their tux?


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

J.Marko said:


> I think Matt has a point. Didn't 19th and early 20th century frock coats and cutaway frock coats often have notch lapels? Just poking around on the internet for a couple minutes I found many examples. See the folks below from 1929. Maybe they had these strollers special made to their crazy specs, but I doubt it:


I could be misremembering, but I think Sator has made the historical argument that notch lapels can be correct on a tuxedo. In seeking out these "rules", it depends on which slice of time one selects as the one setting forth the definitive rules. Arbitrary, to be sure.


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## JAGMAJ (Feb 10, 2005)

This argument has devolved into one of personal philosophy. The choice is clear. If you want to follow the traditional, accepted rules for black tie followed by sartorial enthusiasts, then get a single button peak or shawl lapel (or peak DB). If you don't care about the traditional rules and want to either be trendy or just wear what you think looks best, wear whatever you want. Of course, I note that the OP said that he wanted to be classic and specifically asked for the opinions of people on this forum, who are generally more traditional in their dress (with some notable exceptions). If you want to be "classic," avoid the notched lapel.


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## Jake1990 (Jan 5, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Sure, but he definitely outclasses our past and current Commander in Chief when it comes to white tie affairs...


One of very few examples of Bush doing something more competently than Obama, though he still screws it up.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

JAGMAJ said:


> This argument has devolved into one of personal philosophy. The choice is clear. If you want to follow the traditional, accepted rules for black tie followed by sartorial enthusiasts, then get a single button peak or shawl lapel (or peak DB). If you don't care about the traditional rules and want to either be trendy or just wear what you think looks best, wear whatever you want. Of course, I note that the OP said that he wanted to be classic and specifically asked for the opinions of people on this forum, who are generally more traditional in their dress (with some notable exceptions). If you want to be "classic," avoid the notched lapel.


He has stated it quite succinctly. Bravo!


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Jovan said:


>


Uhg. Even more annoying than a lack of waist covering is the fit of these jackets. These guys are wasting trillions and can't get tuxedo jackets that fit them? Maybe they are expecting to get fat over the next 3 years.

As for the above, even PP doesn't show cuff. Our superiors seem fairly unconcerned about details on formal clothes. It trickles down to the average man. At the very least, they aren't wearing long ties tucked into the cumberbunds.


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

I like that Bush doesn't wear his medals with his white tie (I am assuming that is a flag pin?), even though he could. Makes a nice contrast with royalty. 

Obama of course doesn't have any.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

The flag lapel pin shouldn't even be worn with WT. It is not a decoration nor part of the ensemble. If he wore a buttonhole, it would have been better. 

I remember someone asking why Bush wears a flag pin. "To remind him of what country he is president of" was the answer...


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

J.Marko said:


> I like that Bush doesn't wear his medals with his white tie (I am assuming that is a flag pin?), even though he could. Makes a nice contrast with royalty.
> 
> Obama of course doesn't have any.


Actually, US presidents are not meant to wear military decorations by convention. The flag pin is a way of demeaning white tie.


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

Preu Pummel said:


> As for the above, even PP doesn't show cuff.


To reinforce your excellent point, PP also has a break in this trousers that would be worthy of criticism on this forum. I suspect he is unconcerned.

Funny thing about rules. Outside of a formal system (forgive the pun), the rules are often written by those outside the game trying to find a pattern in the behavior of real people. Semi-Formal dress is not a formal system in this sense - if there were specific accepted rules, there would not be debates. This isn't chess, football, poker or geometry. It is an accepted set of practices that people have tried to formalize into a set of rules by observing past behavior. Those rules are a useful guide if you want to know what people consider "right", but obviously there is a shift going on since at all the black tie events I have been to in DC most of the people are wearing notched lapels.

It's like grammar - eventually some new usage become accepted, but people endlessly debate about it.

So the rules are really just a useful heuristic. That is not to say they are not useful. My point being that consulting the 'rules' is helpful to understand what people think is right, but let's not give the 'rules' too much status, especially when Royalty often breaks the 'rules.'

Apropos the Bush Presidential wear comments above, this seems like a good place for me to inject this quote again, perhaps I should put it in my sig:

"The native independence of American character regards with disdain many of the stringent social laws which are recognized in England and on the continent. Thus, the dress which many of our countrymen adopt...would subject them to serious annoyance abroad."

"Martine's Handbook" 1866


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## Wall (Dec 4, 2008)

Just do it right the first time. You wont ever regret a classic dinner jacket done by the rules.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Andy said:


> I found the faulty reasoning here!:
> "...awful lot of folks for whom cost is no object and who do know the difference..."​If they are wearing notch lapel tuxedos then they* don't know the difference* whether out of ignorance or they are just too dense to learn!


I wear a notch lapel and I *do know the difference*; and to my knowledge I am generally not thought of as being ignorant or dense by people who know me. Well, maybe my ex-wife, but that's all. :icon_smile_big:

I don't think that anyone is denying that the peak lapel jacket is the "classic" style. That isn't always the point. Not everyone wakes up each day and deliberately wears clothing that is "classic." Even the _Black Tie Guide,_ which is what most refer to when arguing their point about peak lapels, says that the notch lapel is acceptable contemporary black tie wear and further notes that it is the most popular lapel choice in the United States.

Do some men wear notch lapels because they don't know the difference? Sure they do. Of course some men wear peak lapels and really don't know the difference either. They sometimes just pick out what they like without regard for such matters.

Personally I'm not arguing for or against anything here. Whatever lapels are on someone else's jacket is of no concern to me. While I wouldn't buy a shawl lapel (I don't like the look), when it comes to peak vs. notch I really don't care that much although I do lean slightly in favor of the notch because the peak reminds me of double breasted jackets, and I have never cared for double breasted jackets.

Both peak and notch are acceptable black tie wear. One just happens to be "classic" while the other is "contemporary." To each his own.

Cruiser


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

Let's throw out the rules and ask ourselves WHY we'd do or not do something. Formalwear with a notch lapel isn't terribly differntiated from a suit. It's a black suit with satin facings. It's boring.

Let's concede that you're "allowed" to wear notch. Who am I to tell Prince Philip he's not well dressed? 

My question is why do you WANT to diminish the distinction between a suit and formal wear and do you think the notch looks better? To me its plain and boring. Whatever your take though, the explanation that it's "the rule" seems very unsatisfactory if you can't explain why the rule is in place and what purpose it serves.


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## msphotog (Jul 5, 2006)

Well, I own both, but I've never worn the notch lapel jacket as I think the peak lapel w/ Grosgrain is much more distinctive. At any black tie event I've been to here in Texas, I'm the only one wearing a peak lapel, and it sure gets the comments. I even got this compliment, "Hey, patent leather shoes...You sure went all tha way!" And the last time I wore my tuxedo, at the hospitality suite after the event, everyone had changed back into jeans, but I just untied my bow tie, and removed my jacket. One of the guys there commented on my self-tie, as he was wearing one himself, shook my hand, and congratulated me on a peak lapel as well as the tie! When I removed my jacket, I revealed my white moire' silk Albert Thurston braces(the James Bond models):icon_smile_wink:
BTW, My tuxedos are both Joseph Abboud, and are very well made and I paid $425 from my personal clothier! The peak lapel is also 2-button, but I only use the top button anyway 
Personally, I wouldn't feel bad about wearing either style, but I find I do prefer the peak.

Mark S.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Putting aside rules, the step lapel is _bland_ compared to the other styles, especially satin-faced (which makes up the majority of step lapel dinner jackets). The other lapel choices look closer to something special you'd wear to have fun and socialise, which is the situation black tie lends itself to well.

There were some '60s styles that jazzed it up a little bit with narrow lapels and taped edges instead of facing. Maybe that's still sacrilege to many here, but I'd take it over the same thing every retailer makes:


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## flatsixcrazy (Jul 1, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> I wear a notch lapel and I *do know the difference*; and to my knowledge I am generally not thought of as being ignorant or dense by people who know me. Well, maybe my ex-wife, but that's all. :icon_smile_big:


+1. Well maybe not the ex-wife part but I notched one of my tuxedo and I know the difference. I had in my stable BB GF Shawl (single breasted, single button), Bijan/Kiton peaked (single breasted, single button), and BB GF tails (peaked). Three months ago, I did the unthinkable and bought BB BF tux (notched, three buttons, grossgrains). It complements other tuxes very nicely. I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a BB peak, double breasted and then a shawl double breasted (don't know where yet) after that. I am very happy with all my choices and I am very comfortable in any one of them.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> Oops. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


So this is how you take responsibility for causing the world to end??????


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> So this is how you take responsibility for causing the world to end??????


"Oops. I'm sorry for causing the world to end."

And then as a final act of contrition I will fling my notch lapel jacket into the flaming inferno, assuming of course that we are talking about a flaming inferno.

On the other hand can we at least consider the possibility that the four horsemen will ride in and smite all those heathens NOT wearing a notch lapel. It's at least something to think about.

Cruiser


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Toss it into Mount Doom! It can only cause ensuing evil with each person that wears it.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> "Oops. I'm sorry for causing the world to end."
> 
> And then as a final act of contrition I will fling my notch lapel jacket into the flaming inferno, assuming of course that we are talking about a flaming inferno.
> 
> ...


What will the four horsemen be wearing?? Jeans??? (With a notch lapel tuxedo jacket???)


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> What will the four horsemen be wearing??


Armani.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

*Thank gawd....*

The good Lord watches over us fools and babies! Sitting here I knew my PRL Tux featured a peak lapel and thought my USAF Mess Dress jacket featured a shawl collar/lapels but, I admit, I had to go check to be sure...I did and it does (phew)!! I am ashamed to admit that while I am in compliance with the "rules" with both sets of formal wear, it is by chance rather than through knowledge or intent. I bought the civilian tux that I did, not because of the peak lapels but rather, because it was on sale and I needed a Tux. My Mess Dress uniform is as it is because Air Force Regulation dictated such...and I rather like things that way.

Looking at tuxes featuring notch lapels, I must admit that they look fine to my eye (boy that could get me banned!). Although, I can certainly see the similarity to a business suit design and can understand that criticism. However, and I ask this question from a true yearning for understanding, are there other reasons why the wearing of a notch lapel tux constitutes such an egregious sartorial transgression?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

As I said, they look bland on dinner jackets. Beyond that I'm pretty much fine with whatever you wear. If it's single button and non-vented, you're doing better than a lot of men already.


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## Garrick (Jun 6, 2009)

*Brillo*


> I've noticed that Nordstrom's Saks, etc... seem to mostly carry two button notch tuxedos.


 Most RTW dinner jackets in the UK are also notched and many are two button - probably because they are cheaper to mass produce by putting satin lapels on ordinary jackets. 


> I really like the Joseph Abboud two button tuxedo


 and


> I want something classic


That gives you a choice between what you like and 'classic'. 


> As I'm tall and thin, I like having the first button up a little higher.


 I can understand why you might do that on an ordinary jacket, but a tuxedo/dinner jacket is not "ordinary". 
Since you're lucky to be tall and thin, I suggest making the most of it with a single button (unbuttoned) with a cummerbund.

The fact that one of the Duke of Edinburgh's dinner jackets has a notch lapel proves nothing. I was at a Dinner last week attended by the Duke of Gloucester. He wore single button peaked lapel. If I wore formal evening dress as often as the DoE I'd probably have a variety of styles too. He's not regarded as the epitome of sartorial elegance.

Before making a final decision, I advise trying a single-button peaked lapel with cummerbund. (The cummerbund is important.) 
If you don't like the classic look, don't buy it.
Notched lapels don't look as smart IMHO as classic peaked lapels, but lots of peope wear them.
Two buttons?
That is a step too far from the classic look IMHO but, if you like it ......

.


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## Jake1990 (Jan 5, 2009)

Garrick said:


> *Brillo*
> Since you're lucky to be tall and thin, I suggest making the most of it with a single button (unbuttoned) with a cummerbund.


Or a waistcoat. It doesn't have to be unbuttoned; a few here would argue it should never be so. I wouldn't go that far, but at least keep it buttoned for some of the evening.


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## Garrick (Jun 6, 2009)

> at least keep it buttoned for some of the evening.


 Having thought about what I do, I agree - although it depends to some extent upon the formality of the occasion.

Example from a recent very formal Dinner in the City of London -

Arrived buttoned - for reception line and pre-dinner drinks.
Unbuttoned when I sat down for dinner.
Buttoned when I got up to make a speech.
Unbuttoned for the rest of the evening.
Buttoned when I left.

If I was tall and thin, I'd be very tempted by a traditional evening dress waistcoat.
I'm not tall and am no longer thin so a cummerbund probably suits me better - although I'm still tempted!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Garrick, the cummerbund is actually the poorer choice for -- ahem -- _rounder_ men since it emphasises their belly.


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## edhillpr (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm surprised the debate is still raging. At this point, if you must have the notch lapel, one should also purchase the leather chaps that expose the buttocks as the matching pants choice.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm not sure I understand your point of reference. Adult entertainers wear those lapels on dinner jackets...?


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## Jake1990 (Jan 5, 2009)

Garrick said:


> Arrived buttoned - for reception line and pre-dinner drinks.
> Unbuttoned when I sat down for dinner.
> Buttoned when I got up to make a speech.
> Unbuttoned for the rest of the evening.
> Buttoned when I left.


I'd follow this myself. However, since the majority of the black tie events I have attended since coming up are balls with no sit down dinner, my usual practice tends to be:

Arrive buttoned
Unbutton after a couple of drinks
Try not to spill drinks on dress shirt
Remember to remove clothes before going to bed.


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## edhillpr (Apr 19, 2007)

Jovan said:


> I'm not sure I understand your point of reference. Adult entertainers wear those lapels on dinner jackets...?


I may be implying that this would be a suitable jacket for an adult entertainer, or I may be just throwing a hand grenade into the debate.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*Huh?*



J.Marko said:


> I like that Bush doesn't wear his medals with his white tie...


Are we talking about George W. Bush (the Younger), 43rd President of the United States of America? If so, then what decorations would those be?


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

The rational for intentionally looking worse when you could look better has always eluded me.

Could it be part of a twisted, contrarian "hypothesis" to bring down the temple? Is it due to underdeveloped taste and ignorance of how to dress properly? Could it be a manifestation of teenage rebellion? (During the adult or pre-retirement years? Really, old boy!) Possibly our hero is doing it to fly in the face of a restrictive, hidebound society?

It is like ignoring an offer from Ferrari to drive for Spyker.

Wool. One button SB. DB if you are thin (maybe a Kent). No vents. Peak or shawl. Burgundy, bottle green, or Vatican red cummerbund. Albert slippers, patent pumps, or (sniff!) patent plaintoe. Turndown Marcella shirt with studs.

*Orsini* has spoken! Go, and sin no more...

PS - I almost forgot: wing collar with white tie vest!

Edit: I now see that the OP is in the UK. In that case, he can do as he likes with no kibitzing from *Orsini*.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

edhillpr said:


> I may be implying that this would be a suitable jacket for an adult entertainer, or I may be just throwing a hand grenade into the debate.


Kaboom?

:icon_smile_big:


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

Orsini said:


> Are we talking about George W. Bush (the Younger), 43rd President of the United States of America? If so, then what decorations would those be?


He would have a couple from his reserve service.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

J.Marko said:


> He would have a couple from his reserve service.


Yeah, I had a couple of those, too: Marksman qualification badge, good conduct award (I can't imagine why) but it never occurred to me to think of them as "decorations."


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

This may be of some small interest, but I spotted the following reference to dinner jackets in a 1960s etiquette book* "(single-breasted jackets with a shawl or, _more conservatively, a *step* collar_ are ousting the double-breasted type) ..." (italics and emboldening mine.) I found the suggestion that a step collar could be considered "conservative" as far back as the early 60s interesting; although one could always consider that the author did not know what she was talking about, the rest of the sartorial advice for men given seems quite sound.

*The Pan Book of Etiquette and Good Manners, Sarah Maclean, Pan Books, London, 1962


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

More proof that notch lapels are unacceptable. 
The Pan Book was panned by 1967, obviously.


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## Lawrence Connor (Jan 20, 2009)

Brillo said:


> I've been looking at getting a new Tuxedo for my wedding and I've noticed that Nordstrom's Saks, etc... seem to mostly carry two button notch tuxedos. I really like the Joseph Abboud two button tuxedo at Nordstroms.
> 
> As I'm tall and thin, I like having the first button up a little higher. As I want this tuxedo to last for a while, I want something classic, which leads me to believe I want a one button tuxedo. If I get a one button, I'm likely to go with the JAB version as I think the lapels on the BB are two large.
> 
> What do people think of the two button style?


Why not consider some other styles, as already mentioned?

After all if getting a tux, get one that is distinctly a tux,
rather than one that looks closer to being a regular suit.


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## Lawrence Connor (Jan 20, 2009)

Orsini said:


> Yeah, I had a couple of those, too: Marksman qualification badge, good conduct award (I can't imagine why) but it never occurred to me to think of them as "decorations."


Good Conduct.... 
it means you didn't get into any significant trouble, 
it doesn't really mean anything like being an angel.


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## Lawrence Connor (Jan 20, 2009)

Brillo said:


> I've been looking at getting a new Tuxedo for my wedding and I've noticed that Nordstrom's Saks, etc... seem to mostly carry two button notch tuxedos. I really like the Joseph Abboud two button tuxedo at Nordstroms.
> 
> As I'm tall and thin, I like having the first button up a little higher. As I want this tuxedo to last for a while, I want something classic, which leads me to believe I want a one button tuxedo. If I get a one button, I'm likely to go with the JAB version as I think the lapels on the BB are two large.
> 
> What do people think of the two button style?


I suggest either a one button single breasted peak lapel, 
or a one button single breasted shawl lapel.

If you want to go all out get both!

btw I think you see a lot of two button notch tuxedos in stores for some perverse reason being that most people will have a sucky looking tuxedo, honestly


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

T.A.R.E.

Tuxedo Abuse Resistance Education

Just don't do it!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Preu Pummel said:


> More proof that notch lapels are unacceptable.
> The Pan Book was panned by 1967, obviously.


I guess I should know who these people are, but I don't...

Aren't there too many "studs?"

The notch lapel dinner jacket has been around for some time. Even some big wheels (who should know better) wear it -- for what reason I can't imagine.

But, why not look better? Why wear a notch when you can have peak or shawl for the same money? It is illogical...


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

It is Patrick McGoohan, although I don't recognise the film/programme. I remain a fan of the DB/peak myself, but I hope one day to stumble upon a suitable vintage SB/peak three-piece for those few occasions when I will need it. (I can't really envisage myself bespeaking one when I have other clothing priorities and vintage examples seem so unsurpassable...)


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Orsini said:


> I guess I should know who these people are, but I don't...


This is probably a first and last I thought would never come, but Orsini...

*YOU LOSE.*

That is Patrick McGoohan from THE PRISONER, which is seminal TV from ITV 1967. He was a secret agent at a funky party going on in his mind as he lies drugged up with interrogators working him over. That might account for the notched tux, but I doubt it. Could have been fashion forward wardrobe choices by the designer. Notches seemed to get play in the 60s.

Yeah, it's better to have a peak or shawl, but it isn't like notched is unusual, ostracized, or ugly (to most).


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Anthony Jordan said:


> It is Patrick McGoohan...


Oh. He looks so young...


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