# Black Tie: Beyond pleated shirts



## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

So what are other options with the dinner jacket for a shirt that isn't pleated?

I've seen pique and hidden button plackets, etc.

Thoughts?

Or stick to the pleated front bib, lay down collar style?


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

As a young man I sometimes wore a plain old white ocbd since I didn't have a real formal shirt. I don't recommend this mind you, but I do know I'm not the only person to have ever done this.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

You might consider a BB select option:

White pinpoint
No pocket, obviously
Regular placket with buttons
Double cuff
Club collar

This gets away from the stud front that has lost it's charm, for me. With a black tie, the club collar seems to work fine.

Many consider this a sartorial faux pas, but it looks better, to me, than the other stuff that is available, and seems to be elegantly simple.

In any event, when you are in a dinner jacket, all eyes are on your lady, and you might as well wear what you want, no one will notice.

A lot of guys have asked where I got the shirt. When I said BB, they didn't listen further, and you are not likely to see another one. I'm sure they gave up when they couldn't find one on the shelf.


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## abc123 (Jun 4, 2006)

This is the formal shirt I wear. I've been perfectly happy with it and would recommend it as an better alternative to the pleated front.


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## wessex (Feb 1, 2008)

^ me too. The cuffs are the same material as the bib. Especially good if you don't trust the pressing skills of your cleaner.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Intrepid said:


> This gets away from the stud front that has lost it's charm, for me. With a black tie, the club collar seems to work fine.


Me too. It seems that more and more guys are wearing a simple white dress shirt (no pocket and French cuffs) with their tuxedo. I really like it. More and more the pleated fronts seem to be relegated to prom duty.

Another thing I've noticed is the increasing absence of cumberbunds for all but the most formal of black tie events. I know that a couple of months ago GQ suggested leaving the cumberbund at home lest you look like you're going to the prom, but it also looks like more and more are doing just that.

Cruiser


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

An interesting point about the cummerbund, except that as someone who has actually been to prom, fraternity formals, and a barrister's ball in the last 10 years, the cummerbund is already dead in the rental formalwear industry. I had a bear of a time arguing with a MW Tux salesman who claimed that cummerbunds were "old-fashioned" and tried to claim they would not even rent them to me. The 6-button vest has completely replaced the cummerbund for prom and other rental purposes. As such, the only young people you actually see wearing cummerbunds are doing some kind of preppy version of it, either plaid (I own a Blackwatch, but I saw a very Scottish-looking guy at Barrister's Ball wearing what I assume to be his tartan cummerbund) or Vineyard Vines. 

However, for my wedding, I and all the groomsmen will be wearing the basic black cummerbund that matches the formality level of my bride's dress as well as that of her bridesmaids. I can't stomach the notion of straight ties with formalwear and renting the correct low-buttoning vest is pretty much impossible.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

abc123 said:


> This is the formal shirt I wear. I've been perfectly happy with it and would recommend it as an better alternative to the pleated front.


& does this shirt still take studs?

Looks interesting.

I've also seen the cummerbund used less and less at black tie functions here in NYC, also more and more I see buttoned dinner jackets, which I never subscribed to.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

*Why bother?*

I don't really get the antipathy towards cummerbunds, shirt studs, and pleated shirts. The cummerbund, which I wear with my shawl-collared dinner jacket, is low maintenance and very easy to deal with. And shirt studs and pleated fronts are kind of fun in that they are different than day-to-day wear and provide some visual options (e.g., I often wear mother of pearl studs with black tie, which is 'wrong' but looks very nice).

I've also worn a regular white shirt to more casual black tie events (with a tartan d.j.), and I certainly can see why there's some appeal, in particular settings, to that approach. But on the whole, it seems to me that being against cummerbunds and shirt studs (and traditional formal shoes, and bow ties, and peak or shawl lapels), suggests that one is just not interested in the whole endeavor. If that's the case, why not just wear a black suit, white shirt, and black long tie? Or a business suit? I don't see the rationale to being somewhat, but not fully, committed to the traditional parameters of semi-formal dress. Those parameters are merely the procedures that underlie the purpose of formal and semi-formal clothing: to hold formal and semi-formal social events that are, in many ways not just limited to clothing, different and more grand than a regular evening.

And to be very clear, I'm not criticizing breaking the 'rules' in a creative way that pays homage to tradition while not precisly following it. That approach implicitly shows respect for the 'rules,' by winking at them. I'm talking about men who simply don't seem to like the whole idea in the first place. Just wear a suit, or if the event is black tie required, just stay home.


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## wessex (Feb 1, 2008)

Sure, the BB shirt has the standard removable band of buttons and will accept studs. When you say "buttoned dinner jacket" do you mean the presence of buttons or fastened?

Is there something inherently wrong or incorrect about buttoning up? I rarely button any jacket, but just curious.

I can totally relate with arguing with the tuxedo rental idiot. I bought my own, but it was tiresome trying to explain to the guy (who just explained to me "you know when you buy jeans in a 32 - that's you waist measurement") that I wanted black cumberbunds. Advice for future grooms - just say it's what the bride wants and she is very adamant about it. When I was sick of arguing and threatened to put the Mrs. on the phone, he changed his tune very quickly.


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## Leon (Apr 16, 2005)

abc123 said:


> This is the formal shirt I wear. I've been perfectly happy with it and would recommend it as an better alternative to the pleated front.


I am amazed that Brooks Brothers show that shirt with a regular four-in-hand tie. WITWCT?

Leon


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I have a Zegna shirt that's made of a royal oxford type cloth (no pleats) and has a stud front. I guess I'm old fashioned (no great shock) as I like wearing the studs. I'd wear a cummerbund, too, but my dj is double-breasted.


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm still looking for a good formal shirt with a concealed placket, like the shirt Daniel Craig wore in Casino Royale. I thought it was a great, clean look.


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to pull off the Daniel Craig no-cummerbund look from Casino Royale like GQ advises. Unfortunately you really need Daniel Craig's body fat % to make this work.


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## wessex (Feb 1, 2008)

svb said:


> I'm still looking for a good formal shirt with a concealed placket, like the shirt Daniel Craig wore in Casino Royale. I thought it was a great, clean look.


Very pricey, but that shirt is a Turnbull & Asser.

https://rd.bcentral.com/?ID=4486196&s=119219538


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

Couple of thoughts...

o I am impressed with Brooks's current formal shirt collection. I don't think you could go far wrong with any of them. I myself bought the "Swiss pleat" shirt last winter; it looks terrific, and is a bit different from "the norm."

o Another option, to break up the monotony, is to go with a pale blue shirt. I saw one in the Ben Silver catalogue and thought how sharp that could look assuming everything else in the outfit were the normal black. I may try it this winter holiday season.

o Having said all that, I have observed that as cummerbunds, bow ties, pleated shirts, and the like become less and less popular, the guys in the full traditional black tie regalia are the ones who stand out as looking best.

TJS


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

videocrew said:


> An interesting point about the cummerbund, except that as someone who has actually been to prom, fraternity formals, and a barrister's ball in the last 10 years, the cummerbund is already dead in the rental formalwear industry....


 Oh good grief! I now either feel old, out of touch or worse. I'd no idea things had changed that much! I don't know what else to say as this change seems to strange for words.

Astonished,
Adrian Quay


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Sartre said:


> o I have observed that as cummerbunds, bow ties, pleated shirts, and the like become less and less popular, the guys in the full traditional black tie regalia are the ones who stand out as looking best.


Indeed, I have also observed that the full traditional regalia stands out as looking best. But that's true of so many things in life, _n'est-ce pas_?


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

This is pretty much standard regalia at any formal event for those under-25: https://www.menswearhouse.com/tuxed...374302401034&tab=2&look=1&bmUID=1213307071526

But for some reason the "correct" look gets a lot of compliments, people think it's really cool, they just don't know where to get it because the formalwear industry pushes this crap at them and they think that's what you're supposed to wear and it takes some guts to pull off the cummerbund/bow tie look.

I just hope the tux rental clowns don't get wind of this and move back to a traditional look. Then I'll look just like everybody else, just with a jacket that fits and pants that don't pool around my non-plastic shoes.


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

wessex said:


> Very pricey, but that shirt is a Turnbull & Asser.


Haha, yes, I've seen that actually. So ok, there is ONE place to get it -- but as you say, very pricey. I'm still on the lookout for that look, but maybe under $100. I've yet to see it, so if I decide I really must have it, I'll just have one custom-made that will probably cost less and fit better anyway.


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

videocrew said:


> This is pretty much standard regalia at any formal event for those under-25: https://www.menswearhouse.com/tuxed...374302401034&tab=2&look=1&bmUID=1213307071526


Ugh. Atrocious.

And those formal events for those under 25 are becoming fewer and fewer. Even at my most recent Barrister's Ball, I was one of the few who was actually in black tie; probably 90% of the guys were just wearing suits.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

How well I remember Barrister's Ball 2008. I booked a room at my 120-year-old downtown club (which was also my maternal grandfather's club), put on my dinner clothes (which were also my paternal grandfather's dinner clothes), had the front desk call me a cab, and sat waiting in the lobby with its leather furniture, original oil paintings, hand-carved woodwork, wrought iron, and softly chiming grandfather clock. Upstairs, the bartender knows my name and what I like to drink. That's _my_ world. Soon the cab took me to _their_ world: a concrete and steel interior, annoyingly loud hip-hop music, long lines to get cheap liquor served in plastic cups, law students wearing ugly suits, law students getting into fist fights, law students throwing up on the floor.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

I don't think I have much interest in what the under 25 crowd think is "hot" in formalwear. As for keeping your jacket buttoned I believe that if you are wearing a double breasted jacket that you are going to keep buttoned you can dispense with the cummerbund or vest and it doesn't matter what the collar type is so long as its DB. I note this from Flusser's "Dressing the Man". Of course if you do this its probably best if the event doesn't include a sit-down dinner where you would want to remove your jacket.

As for not wearing a cummerbund or a vest with other jackets I don't see why you wouldn't. At that point just wear a suit or stay home. Who wants to see your notched lapel tuxedo jacket over your button down collar white shirt with your black long tie, your belt and pleated and/or cuffed black pants and your black sneakers. I think the way forward is to abandon the concept of "black tie optional", if the invitation is made enough in advance and its to an audience that can at least rent a tuxedo it will weed out the slackers.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

rojo said:


> How well I remember Barrister's Ball 2008. I booked a room at my 120-year-old downtown club (which was also my maternal grandfather's club), put on my dinner clothes (which were also my paternal grandfather's dinner clothes), had the front desk call me a cab, and sat waiting in the lobby with its leather furniture, original oil paintings, hand-carved woodwork, wrought iron, and softly chiming grandfather clock. Upstairs, the bartender knows my name and what I like to drink. That's _my_ world. Soon the cab took me to _their_ world: a concrete and steel interior, annoyingly loud hip-hop music, long lines to get cheap liquor served in plastic cups, law students wearing ugly suits, law students getting into fist fights, law students throwing up on the floor.


Rojo, thats heart-breaking, is there anything more squalid than a plastic cup with an alcoholic drink in it (except MAYBE beer - at a barbecue) never mind all the other things you mentioned.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

deanayer said:


> is there anything more squalid than a plastic cup with an alcoholic drink in it (except MAYBE beer - at a barbecue)


And what's wrong with beer, at a barbeque or any where else? Some of my fondest memories began with beer. On the other hand some of my least fond memories also began with beer so maybe that is a wash. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> And what's wrong with beer, at a barbeque or any where else? Some of my fondest memories began with beer. On the other hand some of my least fond memories also began with beer so maybe that is a wash. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


Re-read that, I give beer a pass, I could consume beer from a ziplock bag and be ok with it, I love beer I just don't want to drink a single malt scotch from a translucent blue plastic cup while watching law student slug it out.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

deanayer said:


> Re-read that, I give beer a pass, I could consume beer from a ziplock bag and be ok with it, I love beer I just don't want to drink a single malt scotch from a translucent blue plastic cup while watching law student slug it out.


Party pooper. You probably object to the translucent sheen of vomit on patent leather as well.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

svb said:


> Ugh. Atrocious.
> 
> And those formal events for those under 25 are becoming fewer and fewer. Even at my most recent Barrister's Ball, I was one of the few who was actually in black tie; probably 90% of the guys were just wearing suits.


Check out the sweet "classic looks." Not one of those is classic. The closest is the white dinner jacket.

Make sure to get your microfiber shirt.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Surprisingly their morning wedding one isn't half bad:

https://www.menswearhouse.com/tuxed...374302401030&tab=3&look=1&bmUID=1213326673944


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

rojo said:


> ...waiting in the lobby with its leather furniture, original oil paintings, hand-carved woodwork, wrought iron, and softly chiming grandfather clock...


Sounds like heaven. 



rojo said:


> ...cheap liquor served in plastic cups...


Plastic cups -- too bad. Plastic always imparts a nasty taste to the beverage. Libations are always better in proper bar glassware.


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## django (Jun 5, 2008)

svb said:


> Haha, yes, I've seen that actually. So ok, there is ONE place to get it -- but as you say, very pricey. I'm still on the lookout for that look, but maybe under $100. I've yet to see it, so if I decide I really must have it, I'll just have one custom-made that will probably cost less and fit better anyway.


I found one place that sells something similar for far less money: https://www.clermontdirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_71&products_id=160


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

django said:


> I found one place that sells something similar for far less money: https://www.clermontdirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_71&products_id=160


Wow, great find!! It looks like you have to call or e-mail them specifically for any international order, but I think I will go ahead and get a quote.


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## django (Jun 5, 2008)

Yeah, I really looked and looked everywhere. I know one can get a made to measure shirt, but this takes time and also may cost near $100. Clermont Direct is the only place I have found to get this kind of shirt in under 3 weeks in the $50 or so price range.

I suggest emailing. My experience was excellent communication, quick and helpful responses, effortless transaction.

Best of luck!


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

Put my order in. I'll post results when I get it.


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

I asked this on the Ask A Trad forum a couple of days ago but haven't gotten an answer , so I thought I would try here.

The front(pleated,marcella,starched) of a tuxedo shirt shouldn't go under the waistline because then it would bulge out.

But how do you know that the front will be the right length on a shirt ordered online?


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## Fuzzypuppy (Mar 30, 2008)

brokencycle said:


> Surprisingly their morning wedding one isn't half bad:
> 
> https://www.menswearhouse.com/tuxed...374302401030&tab=3&look=1&bmUID=1213326673944


As much as I hate to say it - I'm really liking that look.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

I too take issue with the rental prom look. Even when I was in high school I shied away from that look without knowing better, I just thought it was tacky. Now that I'm a couple years older and have purchased my own tuxedo, the real classic look is what I find to be sublime. I am slowly piecing my tux together for my wedding and the honeymoon cruise. I am however, going to skip the cumberbund because I never liked how they look, but have purchased a self tie bow tie and I work often to tie it correctly so I dont look like a goober when I wear it out. I also chose to went with a plain front shirt, and will probably use the standard buttons, but I like to have the option of using studs when I so choose, so the option is nice. As always, there is a reason a classic is a classic, no reason to change it.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

videocrew said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to pull off the Daniel Craig no-cummerbund look from Casino Royale like GQ advises. Unfortunately you really need Daniel Craig's body fat % to make this work.


Craig wasn't the first Bond to wear a formal shirt with hidden-button placket (not sure if Brosnan's wearing a cummerbund in this photo, but it doesn't look like it). It's definitely a streamlined look. Note the spread collar shirt, as well.


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

brokencycle said:


> Surprisingly their morning wedding one isn't half bad:
> 
> https://www.menswearhouse.com/tuxed...374302401030&tab=3&look=1&bmUID=1213326673944


Don't get too optimistic. They also rent ensembles for butlers:
https://www.menswearhouse.com/tuxed...395562373&FOLDER<>browsePath=1408474395562373

Described as "a traditional look ideal for a very formal party." If one is serving drinks, perhaps...


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## Pgolden (May 13, 2006)

I've worn a tux more times than I care to remember, but I've never worn a standard tie with one before but I'm going to try out a shepherd check wedding tie at my niece's wedding in Oct. I bought a shawl collar tux after giving my tux to my son for his prom. He wants to wear a vest so I guess I'll go with the cumberbund. It's an experiment and I'm curious whether I'm going to like it.


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## larsrindsig (Dec 31, 2006)

Pgolden said:


> I've worn a tux more times than I care to remember, but I've never worn a standard tie with one before but I'm going to try out a shepherd check wedding tie at my niece's wedding in Oct. I bought a shawl collar tux after giving my tux to my son for his prom. He wants to wear a vest so I guess I'll go with the cumberbund. It's an experiment and I'm curious whether I'm going to like it.


I'm not sure what a 'weddng tie' is - a cravat?

Don't. Don't, don't, don't. Please!


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## Pgolden (May 13, 2006)

larsrindsig said:


> I'm not sure what a 'weddng tie' is - a cravat?
> 
> Don't. Don't, don't, don't. Please!


The one on the left, though mine is a bit more narrow.


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## larsrindsig (Dec 31, 2006)

Righty-ho. In that case I stand by what I said: don't.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

deanayer said:


> ...Of course if you do this its probably best if the event doesn't include a sit-down dinner where you would want to remove your jacket....


Forgive me, I've had a martini. Did I read this correctly?


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

larsrindsig said:


> I'm not sure what a 'wedding tie' is - a cravat?
> 
> Don't. Don't, don't, don't. Please!


 A wedding tie is a four-in-hand of a particular pattern and color: 
https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=788790&postcount=29

I seem to recall there are some nice pictures of wedding ties in Manton's wedding thread.

The wedding tie is worn with a business/lounge suit for a wedding and looks marvelous, even for the groom.

On the other hand, any four-in-hand with evening semi-formal looks positively *hideous!*


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

deanayer said:


> ...remove your jacket...


Nix, nix! The DJ stays on until you are back at home. Unless you have to fight a duel, of course...


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

abc123 said:


> This is the formal shirt I wear. I've been perfectly happy with it and would recommend it as an better alternative to the pleated front.


I hope you dont wear that tie


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

amplifiedheat said:


> Don't get too optimistic. They also rent ensembles for butlers:
> https://www.menswearhouse.com/tuxed...395562373&FOLDER<>browsePath=1408474395562373
> 
> Described as "a traditional look ideal for a very formal party." If one is serving drinks, perhaps...


Hmm, yes, either a daytime funeral suit with the wrong tie or livery


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Pgolden said:


> I've worn a tux more times than I care to remember, but I've never worn a standard tie with one before but I'm going to try out a shepherd check wedding tie at my niece's wedding in Oct. I bought a shawl collar tux after giving my tux to my son for his prom. He wants to wear a vest so I guess I'll go with the cumberbund. It's an experiment and I'm curious whether I'm going to like it.


Your mad, why?

If the wedding is evening, wear the DJ with black bow tie.

If daytime, either a suit or a morning coat with one of those ties.

Just because they are called "wedding ties".....

Will you be tucking the checked FIH in to the black cummberbund or leave it swinging outside over it? Honestly!!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Pgolden said:


> The one on the left, though mine is a bit more narrow.


Yes, wedding ties. Very nice with *business/lounge* suit...


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## Penang Lawyer (May 27, 2008)

To me a shirt without studs makes you look like a waiter. I wear a cummerbund and / or a three button vest it all depends on the tempature. To me the six button vest is silly and the tux necktie is stupid. Also all tis should be self tie. If you can't tie a tie you should not be wearing a tux.


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