# Hilditch and Key



## richb (Oct 2, 2005)

What's the scoop on these shirts? Good, fair, excellent, etc?


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## bluetag39 (Nov 30, 2004)

How about the best


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## Trogdor (May 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bluetag39_
> 
> How about the best


Ditto. My better half got me one for Christmas, and it's a delight.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

They are my favorite dress shirts. Nice fabric, great collars (non fused, which I prefer), a very high level of pattern matching, and mother of pearl buttons. 

From reading all the lists of "best shirts" that have been posted by many members, I think that what's "best" is a matter of personal preference. For example, you won't find hand stitched button holes and there may be only a limited selection of finer fabrics for H&K. Also, some members prefer a more tapered fit.


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## richb (Oct 2, 2005)

maybe a dumb question, but I bought a Burberry shirt a couple months ago and it was my size, but i swear it was WAY to small. I know that europeans cuts are smaller, but these sleeves were about 4 inches too short. 35 is 35 right? Maybe just a bad mislabled shirt? If I get my regular size online in a Hilditch it'll fit or do I need to change anything?


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## Young Pro (Jun 2, 2005)

Quick question, was checking out the Sale by Mail on H&K's website, and was wondering what the fit of these shirts is like. I'm tall (6 ft 2) but very slim (38 inch chest and 31 inch waist). 

Thanks


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## Nick (Jan 16, 2005)

I think about quality RTW shirts in four tiers:

1. Outrageous. Top of the line fabrics, often very delicate, lots of handwork. At US$500+ it's sometimes hard to know whether you're paying for quality or brand. At this price some believe it makes more sense to go bespoke? 

For example: Kiton, Barba, Borrelli, Attolini.

2. Extravagant: Some would still argue that bespoke makes more sense than these RTW, but it's all about personal taste. You could certainly get a Zegna MTM for the same or less. Generally still have some handwork. Beautiful fabrics, perhaps on average not quite as delicate as Outrageous Shirts. 

For example: Brioni, Charvet, Carlo Franco, Battistoni, Zegna Couture Napoli.

3. Outstanding: Very high quality construction, far above the average man on the street. Beautiful fabrics but little or no handwork.

For example: Hilditch and Key, Lorenzini, Turnbull & Asser, RLPL, Truzzi.

4. Quality: most of the other Jermyn Street brands, eg H&H, Coles. Also perhaps Brooks Brothers? Thomas Pink would not make it into this category.


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"They're such beautiful shirts," she sobbed, her voice muffled in the thick folds. "It makes me sad because I've never seen such â€” such beautiful shirts before."


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## richb (Oct 2, 2005)

I've always thought Pink was a high end shirtmaker, have I been bamboozled by clever marketing again?

The H&K shirts on thier site are about 70 bucks, that seems dirt cheap for an "outstanding" shirt.


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## Nick (Jan 16, 2005)

Pink does have a nice range of patterns, particularly stripes. I bought one of their shirts recently to wear to a party. But their dress shirts aren't in the same league as T&A, H&K, Budd, etc. In my experience the collars start curling up at the tips after only a few months wear.

As far as marketing, they are a marketing driven product. Pink is not really an old Jermyn Street brand. The company was launched only a decade or so ago using a defunct old name. With private equity backing they have gone global.

As for the H&K sale by mail price, yes, it is a real bargain. Their normal list price in London is 75 pounds per shirt which is US$134. As someone noted in another post, in shops like Saks they cost over $200 (though that may be for the Sea Island, which cost more like 99 pounds??).


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"They're such beautiful shirts," she sobbed, her voice muffled in the thick folds. "It makes me sad because I've never seen such â€” such beautiful shirts before."


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by richb_
> 
> maybe a dumb question, but I bought a Burberry shirt a couple months ago and it was my size, but i swear it was WAY to small. I know that europeans cuts are smaller, but these sleeves were about 4 inches too short. 35 is 35 right? Maybe just a bad mislabled shirt? If I get my regular size online in a Hilditch it'll fit or do I need to change anything?


I have a few H&K shirts, and one feature I really like is that they leave about 3/4" of sleeve fabric inside the cuff (at least on the double-cuff shirts, which mine are). As shrinkage occurs, the sleeve can be lengthened up to this much greater length by any seamstress. My experience with sleeve length of H&K is that they are accurate. In other words, a 35" sleeve means just that: that 35" is the measurement from the center of the back just under the collar along the shoulder to the shoulder/sleeve seam, and then down the sleeve to the end of the cuff. That, by the way, is the correct way to measure shirt sleeve length.

As for the question of are they the best, no they aren't, but they are very good, and might be the best (along with Turnbull & Asser, I suppose) of the British shirts. I like Nick's taxonomy of shirts. One could quibble about certain shirts belonging in which categories, but, on the whole, this looks about right--with H&K well below the top category. By the way, there are a couple of very good sources for some of these top-rated shirts at far below the prices Nick cites ($500+). They are our own Forum people, Ian Daniels of "The World's Finest" and Lance Hughes of "Virtual Clothes Horse," who have eBay stores, and from whom you can buy that Borrelli shirt for something on the order of $150, with Barba a little less at, say, $135.

Vancouver


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## Philip12 (Aug 24, 2005)

If you like H&K shirts and you happen to be in Brussels, you should definitely check out one of the three 'Crossword' stores in the city centre. They have their own line of H&K shirts that look even better than the ones you can buy in Jermyn street. Also, they carry size 15 3/4 (40 in Europe), a size you can't find in the UK or the US (or am I wrong about this?).


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## jjmorgan (Aug 24, 2005)

No word on New & Lingwood. Any comments?


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## Notik (Jul 3, 2005)

any thoughts on list-rouge? I've found them to be a good value for MTM, though not inexpensive.



> quote:_Originally posted by jjmorgan_
> 
> No word on New & Lingwood. Any comments?


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## CharlieChannel (Mar 16, 2006)

Yeah the guy with the tiers is right. Pink and
Tyrwhytt are OK ina pinch, similar to Brooks.
But H&K is outstanding, with Charvet being above in style
and construction--and less comfortable if you
are 5'11" and 190 pounds. Brioni I question,
but otherwise our gentleman is correct. 
He forgot FRAY in the Extravagant ($400)
tier.


> quote:_Originally posted by richb_
> 
> I've always thought Pink was a high end shirtmaker, have I been bamboozled by clever marketing again?
> 
> The H&K shirts on thier site are about 70 bucks, that seems dirt cheap for an "outstanding" shirt.


Charlie Channel-hunter


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## Walter (Jan 6, 2005)

At this point there is something I fail to understand. The guy I buy clothes from says I can have borrelli MTM for 180 Euros. Is this a good deal?


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jjmorgan_
> 
> No word on New & Lingwood. Any comments?


N&L makes pretty good stuff. Not sure if RTW is up to H&K/T&A standards, although I've heard nothing but glowing praise for their bespoke services.

-----------------------------
"In summer I sleep under a white ermine cover and in winter, under sable."--Karl Lagerfeld, the one and only.


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## southampton man (Mar 15, 2006)

H and K are the best in Jermyn St... not flashy and neither too cheap nor too dear and with a pleasantly narrow collar band which is good news if you've got a short neck like me.In Jermyn St you don't get something for nothing.Buy a cheap shirt and thats exactly what you get...buy cheap...buy twice .

never wear brown after six


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## Hanseat (Nov 20, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Walter_
> 
> At this point there is something I fail to understand. The guy I buy clothes from says I can have borrelli MTM for 180 Euros. Is this a good deal?


Same thing here, I can get Barba MTO at 150 â‚¬ and Borrelli at 180 â‚¬. I once got a Borrelli and a Barba for 30 Euros each (being a student and the shirts having gone unsold for a couple of seasons, the owner offered me this- me being a relatively frequent visitor to his store. I guess that went along with the job-offer...).

Maybe I should start thinking about a mailorder-program. Does 260 USD incl. shipping sound like a deal? You give me the specifications, I'll get you the shirt for a lot less than you could get in the US.


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## AndreMcGrath (Feb 1, 2006)

I tell you, I am new to the sartorial thing, and my views are probably philistine. In the last few months (read, since the commencement of my obsession with this infernal site), I have purchased Lorenzini's, Borrelli's, T&A's, albeit none of them at full freight. My favorite shirts, in terms of fabric and fit, are Canali. The collars are stiff as hell, and they iron up beautifully. I know I must be missing something, but I hope it isn't simply the needle and thread thing.

Mark


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## MarkusH (Dec 10, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Young Pro_
> 
> Quick question, was checking out the Sale by Mail on H&K's website, and was wondering what the fit of these shirts is like. I'm tall (6 ft 2) but very slim (38 inch chest and 31 inch waist).
> 
> Thanks


Then H&K RTW is not for you. Turnbull & Asser will fit much better with more room for the chest and less room for the waist.


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## Dameon (Mar 2, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by CharlieChannel_
> 
> But H&K is outstanding, with Charvet being above in style
> and construction--and less comfortable if you
> are 5'11" and 190 pounds.


I'm 5'11" and 190 pounds. I'm curious as to why a particular shirt is or is not "comfortable" at that size???

I think I may be encountering the same problem as many others on this site with builds where our chests measure much wider than our waists. With weight and height above, I have a 43" chest and 35" waist and wear a 44R suit. I have yet to find a shirt that fits my upper body and tapers in at the waist. I always feel like I'm wearing a parachute. I tried the Tyrwhitt fitted shirts, and while they do fit great around the mid-section, they were too tight around my lats.

I just got an order of "quality" TM Lewins in last week and while the fit of the shoulders and chest is great, I'm going to have to pay a tailor to bring at least 5" in on both sides of the shirt in the midsection.

Has anyone with a similar build had any luck with a quality RTW shirtmaker so that your shirt doesn't look like an inverted potato sack around your waist line?


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## MarkusH (Dec 10, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Dameon_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As stated above: Try Turnbull and Asser.


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## alebrady (Oct 14, 2004)

old thread but was contemplating going the MTM route for some dress shirts. I would like to go with an English brand - does H&K offer a MTM service in the US? If so, how do you think it would compare to Turnbull MTM?

Also, as an aside, has anyone experienced Dunhill MTM shirts?

thanks!


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## the etruscan (Mar 9, 2007)

Nick said:


> 2. Extravagant: Some would still argue that bespoke makes more sense than these RTW, but it's all about personal taste. You could certainly get a Zegna MTM for the same or less. Generally still have some handwork. Beautiful fabrics, perhaps on average not quite as delicate as Outrageous Shirts.
> 
> For example: Brioni, Charvet, Carlo Franco, Battistoni, Zegna Couture Napoli.


You should be warned that, dependent on fabric, Charvet RTW can cost well more than 500 euro.


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## DunninLA (Aug 17, 2007)

I bought two Hilditch shirts used on ebay a couple of months ago. They are outstanding! I also have Fray, Barba, Brioni, Borrelli, Barbera, RLPL, Zegna Alta Sartoria, Zegna per misura, and regular Zegna.

The Hilditch fabric on both shirts (white, medium blue) are thicker than the fabrics on all my other shirts. I get the feeling they will last for 100 washes.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

I have been a loyal Hilditch & Key customer for over 20 years. IMO, the firm is the best shirtmaker in Jermyn Street by a long way. At £43 to £45 in the sale as they have for several years, H&K shirts are a genuine bargain.

I was told that the new slimfit collection, at least 4 inches or 10cm less across the chest, will have double cuffs.

I have never seen a Charvet shirt. Can you buy them in London?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

alebrady said:


> does H&K offer a MTM service in the US?


Dig it:


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

jjmorgan said:


> No word on New & Lingwood. Any comments?


N&L appears to have a new, cheaper range with cheaper fabrics and plastic buttons with the firm's name on. They were sold in my local department store and looked awful. They were on sale during the summer at half price - £27.50 - and I still could not be tempted.

RichB should read my thread, started a few days ago, on Pink's dreadful and over-priced slimfit range. Only the Prestige range, made in the UK, looks okay but it lacks consistency.

Harvie and Hudson's shirts seem to be on perpetual sale to compete with Tyrwhitt, Lewins and Hawes & Curtis. I heard that the RTW range is made in Asia. Sad! 

I will stick to H&K.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> I have been a loyal Hilditch & Key customer for over 20 years. IMO, the firm is the best shirtmaker in Jermyn Street by a long way. At £43 to £45 in the sale as they have for several years, H&K shirts are a genuine bargain.
> 
> I was told that the new slimfit collection, at least 4 inches or 10cm less across the chest, will have double cuffs.
> 
> I have never seen a Charvet shirt. Can you buy them in London?


I own one Charvet. It's really nice but the tails seem to me to be a bit on the short side. I'm used to English shirts with their longer-in-back tuck-in tails and think I prefer them.


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## alebrady (Oct 14, 2004)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Dig it:


PJC - thanks. i have emailed to get their U.S. schedule. Any chance you have tried their MTM as well as T&A's? any opinion on which way to go?

thanks


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

alebrady said:


> PJC - thanks. i have emailed to get their U.S. schedule. Any chance you have tried their MTM as well as T&A's? any opinion on which way to go?
> 
> thanks


Do you ned MTM? H&K's RTW fits me perfectly. IIRC, Paul Stuart and Wm Fox in DC stock H&K RTW. You could try them first if you live near their stores. Alternatively, you could order a RTW shirt online to check the fit.


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## alebrady (Oct 14, 2004)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Do you ned MTM? H&K's RTW fits me perfectly. IIRC, Paul Stuart and Wm Fox in DC stock H&K RTW. You could try them first if you live near their stores. Alternatively, you could order a RTW shirt online to check the fit.


yes, if not solely for the fit (which i believe would need MTM for this also, given how slender i am) i am hoping to be more selective in my fabric choice and would also like to try a more specific collar shape than what i have seen readily available


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

alebrady said:


> yes, if not solely for the fit (which i believe would need MTM for this also, given how slender i am) i am hoping to be more selective in my fabric choice and would also like to try a more specific collar shape than what i have seen readily available


If you are ver slim, you ought to try the slimfits but the choice of fabrics may be limited to solids and bengals. I love the standard H&K spread collar (and also have a few with the old "Churchill") but recognise that not everyone does. Best of luck!


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Hilditch good. Pink not.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*I have to disagree..*

Not that H&K doesn't make a good shirt, but I prefer the fabric and collar style of H&H over H&K. The brilliant stripes and checks of H&H are what an English shirt is all about. Also, the collars of H&K shirts do not lie upon the shirt properly, in my opinion. You can even see this on the shirts shown on their web site. The non fused collars and cuffs are much harder to iron than H&H collars and cuffs, which I believe are fused, but not so the fabric is starchy like. Also, I got tired of H&K not deducting the damnable VAT from my order. I don't think it is my responsibility to keep bugging them about it. I wear my H&K shirts, and they are good shirts, but I prefer H&H. Note that I don't say H&H is the best on Jermyn street, which I think is rediculous to say about H&K, I just think there are some good reasons to buy H&H.

I would like to get som T&A shirts, but I wont unless they get a US website you can order from. I have had them before, when I used to travel to Chicago (Nieman-Marcus), and I particularly liked the high collar and tight French cuffs for fitting in a slim cut suit.


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## spielerman (Jul 21, 2007)

dfloyd said:


> Not that H&K doesn't make a good shirt, but I prefer the fabric and collar style of H&H over H&K.


What company does H&H stand for? Harvie Hudson?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

spielerman said:


> What company does H&H stand for? Harvie Hudson?


Yes, Harvie & Hudson of Jermyn Street and Knightsbridge.

https://www.harvieandhudson.com/products.phtml

Unlike seemingly so many businesses with personal names as their titles (Bartles & James, for instance--haha), it was actually founded by and is still run by a Harvie and a Hudson (Richard and Andrew currently, IIRC). I met Mr. Hudson on their last US swing; very nice fellow. I believe their dads or grand-dads started the shop shortly after WWII.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

richb said:


> I've always thought Pink was a high end shirtmaker, have I been bamboozled by clever marketing again?
> 
> The H&K shirts on thier site are about 70 bucks, that seems dirt cheap for an "outstanding" shirt.


Perhaps you are misreading the prices. The H&K website is in British Pounds not dollars. I recall that the non sale price for the regular line is usually about 70 pounds.


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## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

I wore Hilditch RTW with some regularity many years ago. I think for a RTW shirt in the $100-$150 range they are an outstanding value.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

In London Charvet is sold at Connolly and maybe Harrods.

I would avoid buying anything from Liste Rouge, ever.


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*Gents ...*

H&K are great shirts - mother of perl buttons, nice colors, nice ties - some people even like their rounded cuffs - they do not stick outside the suit but comfortably slide in.

But then again, for those prices I actually preffer Harvie & Hudson - they have more spirit, and I like T&A (although very expensive).

I actually wanted to start buying New & Lingwood - but also expesive. They have wonderfull high collars and make RTW with James Bond cuffs.

As for Pink - nice shop but yes, it is marketing and they are made in Asia and I do think the price is justified.

And I love H&H - and they are made in the UK.

P.S. the best shirts in the world by Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/2003/12/17/cx_cd_1217feat.html


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Thanks for that link to the Forbes list, Khnelben. Charles Dubow did a similar list Forbes in 1998, I think (and perhaps some others since then), and I couldn't figure out how some of the makers made the list so I emailed him. He responded by telling me that for his list, he tried to combine different styles and price ranges rather than just pick the absolute best makers regardless of style and price. J. Press apparently replaced Brooks (don't remember Press being on the older list), and this list, which I think is shorter than his 1998 list, does not include TM Lewin (which must have been a "value" pick back then). A few years after he put Brooks Bros. on his list, I think it was Dubow who criticized Brooks in the Wall St. Jrl. for lowering their manufacturing standards.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Khnelben said:


> H&K are great shirts - mother of perl buttons, nice colors, nice ties - some people even like their rounded cuffs - they do not stick outside the suit but comfortably slide in.
> 
> But then again, for those prices I actually preffer Harvie & Hudson - they have more spirit, and I like T&A (although very expensive).
> 
> ...


As an H&K customer, I much prefer the rounded cuffs as they look more elegant.

The shape of T&A's collar is not to my personal taste and I prefer not to purchase from Al Fayed.

Watch out for New and Lingwood's cheaper shirts with plastic buttons!

Not all Pink shirts are made in Asia. Some are made in Eastern Europe and the Prestige range is made in the UK.

I heard that Harvie & Hudson's RTW shirts are also made in Asia.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

i'm looking at purchasing some harvie & hudson.

what is the quality like on their internet stock ??

MOP buttons ??

do they fit like a tent or close fitting ??


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## DunninLA (Aug 17, 2007)

Intersting slide show from Forbes. I agree it must be a broad overview of several categories, and not "The Best" as is implied, as Fray, Barba, Truzzi, and several others are not listed that are probably better, and certainly much more expensive, than about half the list.

The piece seems to have been put together long before 2003. When did Zegna stop making Sartoriale -- 1998? He lists 3 Zegna levels of quality: Soft, Sartoriale, and Napoli. I have Sartoriale, and regular (which seems to be missing), but no Soft and no Napoli.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

english_gent said:


> i'm looking at purchasing some harvie & hudson.
> 
> what is the quality like on their internet stock ??
> 
> ...


The quality appears to be good for the money (£90 for 3 shirts) compared to Lewins and H&C in Jermyn Street. The Jermyn Street RTW appear to have MOP buttons. I assume that the online shirts are the same. IIRC, the collars are fused but I have no experience of them and cannot comment the fit. If you like the fabrics and collar, they seem to worth trying!


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> The quality appears to be good for the money (£90 for 3 shirts) compared to Lewins and H&C in Jermyn Street. The Jermyn Street RTW appear to have MOP buttons. I assume that the online shirts are the same. IIRC, the collars are fused but I have no experience of them and cannot comment the fit. If you like the fabrics and collar, they seem to worth trying!


+1

I have H&Hs I bought in person in Jermyn St. or Knightsbridge, and others I've distance-ordered (including one from Australia). They all have MOP buttons. Their standard Kent collar is a bit less generously scaled than an H&K or TML collar, but perhaps a bit bigger in the leaf than a Coles. All are subtly different but well w/in the "classic" design arena of British shirts. It's a question of trying this and that and figuring out what you like best, all things considered.


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*Gent ...*

the buttons are MOP and the fit is somewhere in the middle - they are not as long and as "balloony" as Crombie but not tight as a Polo Black or Paul Smith.

Nice shirts.

P.S. And the ties are actually slightly on the thin side (I have a regimental ties from them)

Andrey


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

i'm gonna order 3 multistripes and get the body taken in by my alteration tailor.

he did a fantastic job of making my boateng bespoke couture shirts slim fitting (they are like tents off the peg) and charges only £10 per shirt.

im eager to find out what all the fuss is about with H&H.

then next up , hilditch and keys and T&A's.

i think my wardrobe could do with another dozen shirts or so.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

english_gent said:


> i'm gonna order 3 multistripes and get the body taken in by my alteration tailor.
> 
> he did a fantastic job of making my boateng bespoke couture shirts slim fitting (they are like tents off the peg) and charges only £10 per shirt.
> 
> ...


Are you planning to purchase from each of H&H, H&K, T&A? Surely it would be logical just to try them on in the store and buy from your favourite.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

i'll be buying from all three.

i'm a label 'whore' , i want all three in my wardrobe. :icon_smile:


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*Try all three...*

then decide for the future. They all have niceties which you should experience first hand. The rounded cuffs of H&K allow for more automatic slipping back into the suit jacket if the shirt cuff exceeds the jacket cuff by a full cuff dimensions. Square cuffs sometimes stick beyond the jacket and you have to tuck them back in yourself. I don't think they are any classier as one thread writer said, since you never see them anyway when you are wearing a jacket. The H&K collar tends not to lie on the shirt front with the collar ends tucked beneath the lapel, as is de riguer with an English spread. They don't have cutaway collars on their website, which is the only way I can order them, and they lack any striking colors also.

H&H has the striking colors plus some contrasting collar and cuffs, so they have a nice website selection. Their standard collar is smewhere between a spread and a cutaway, I think it ios called a Kent. The fit is also in between a full bodied shirt and a fitted shirt. They are cut much thinner than an H&K, so you might not want iot tailored. In short, you get a nice stripe and check selection, a collar that is fashionable without being extreme, and a closer fitting body. All without paying extra. And for US buyers, they deduct the evil VAT without going through a plethora of e-mails.

The strong points of T&A include their higher collar with a wider spread that used to be the hallmark of an English shirt. On the double cuff, they make it much narrower so it fits nicely within the jacket sleeve. If you are enamored if Englishshirts (as I am), you're probably going to be wearing slim cut English suits so the tighter cuff helps.

If you want to see some T&A shirts in action, watch John LeCarre's 'Tinker et al' which was a Masterpiece Theatre (I think) production and now available on DVD. All the boys are sitting around a conference table in the Circus (LeCarre's nom de plume for MI6) wearing their striped T&A shirts. All except the late Sir Alec Guiness who portrays the dowdy, but clever, George Smiley who is looking for the mole. I thought leaving Sir alec out of the sartorial mix was clever!


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

dfloyd said:


> then decide for the future. They all have niceties which you should experience first hand. The rounded cuffs of H&K allow for more automatic slipping back into the suit jacket if the shirt cuff exceeds the jacket cuff by a full cuff dimensions. Square cuffs sometimes stick beyond the jacket and you have to tuck them back in yourself. I don't think they are any classier as one thread writer said, since you never see them anyway when you are wearing a jacket. The H&K collar tends not to lie on the shirt front with the collar ends tucked beneath the lapel, as is de riguer with an English spread. They don't have cutaway collars on their website, which is the only way I can order them, and they lack any striking colors also.


H&K have carried cutaway collared shirts in their "Sale By Mail" print catalogues. You may therefore need to rely on snail mail.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

i notice the posts so far about H&H compare them directly up against T&A etc only pointing out stylistic differences.

can i take this that H&H RTW are comparable to turnbull , hilditch etc quality wise , even though H&H have their shirts made abroad ?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> H&K have carried cutaway collared shirts in their "Sale By Mail" print catalogues. You may therefore need to rely on snail mail.


Hilditch currently has 11 cutaway models for sale on the web at 69.95 GBP/ea, the normal "full retail" price:

I have asked Mike Campy of classicwardrobe.co.uk about whether he's considered offering H&K cutaways over the Web via Bromley's, and he's said he think seriously about it if the demand seemed to be there.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*I have worn all three under discussion...*

and they are all the same quality as far as I'm concerned. They do differ widely in design, fit, and collar style. At my last e-mail talk with H&H, their shirts were all made in the UK. H&H shirts are made and sold by a small family owned business. On a forum thread a few months ago, someone said that H&K were being made in Scotland.

T&A is the older of the three and is somewhat stuffy to deal with, or so I have been told. 
Sort of an old boys' school, Eton and Cambridge and all that rot. What I thought was a twist on this was in the BBC production of "The Fourth Man", the story of Kim Philby et al, the British turncoats or spies, Donald McClean (if that's how you spell his name) is shown making some purchases just prior to his defection to Russia at Turnbull & Asser. The store front of T&A on Jermyn st. is prominently shown. What publicity! A traitor and known homosexual buys his shirts at T&A.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

dfloyd said:


> Donald McClean (if that's how you spell his name) is shown making some purchases just prior to his defection to Russia at Turnbull & Asser. The store front of T&A on Jermyn st. is prominently shown. What publicity! A traitor and known homosexual buys his shirts at T&A.


Donald Maclean may possibly have been bisexual at most - his cronies Anthony Blunt and Guy Burgess (especially the latter) were homosexual. Interestingly, the Wikipedia entry for Maclean states that he was recruited as a "straight penetration agent" (sic).


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

dfloyd said:


> Donald McClean (if that's how you spell his name) is shown making some purchases just prior to his defection to Russia at Turnbull & Asser. The store front of T&A on Jermyn st. is prominently shown. What publicity! A traitor and known homosexual buys his shirts at T&A.


It's the unknown homersexuals you have to watch out for. Tappa tappa.

In another UK miniseries called "Cambridge Spies" or "Cambridge Five", Blunt is shown taking Burgess to buy an overcoat at Turnbull & Asser before Burgess' defection.

Similarly, in Duncan Roy's gay Ripley film A.K.A., the main character, an enterprising young ephebe on the make, is shown trying to buy an old school tie at Turnbull & Asser. I think T&A doesn't mind the exposure. After all, as Nick Foulkes wrote, it is a "Very British Institution"... like "rum, sodomy and the lash," as the sorely missed Blackadder noted.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

dfloyd said:


> and they are all the same quality as far as I'm concerned. They do differ widely in design, fit, and collar style. At my last e-mail talk with H&H, their shirts were all made in the UK. H&H shirts are made and sold by a small family owned business. On a forum thread a few months ago, someone said that H&K were being made in Scotland.


Thanks for the information. H&K dress shirts, i.e. non-casual, are made in Glenrothes, Fife.


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

PJC in NoVa said:


> I own one Charvet. It's really nice but the tails seem to me to be a bit on the short side. I'm used to English shirts with their longer-in-back tuck-in tails and think I prefer them.


I agree. I have 2 Charvet shirts and the tails are definitely too short. Also they are squared off. I bought them 2 years ago at NM looking for a different maker. Not worth $400 each.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

dfloyd said:


> T&A is the older of the three and is somewhat stuffy to deal with, or so I have been told.
> Sort of an old boys' school, Eton and Cambridge and all that rot. What I thought was a twist on this was in the BBC production of "The Fourth Man", the story of Kim Philby et al, the British turncoats or spies, Donald McClean (if that's how you spell his name) is shown making some purchases just prior to his defection to Russia at Turnbull & Asser. The store front of T&A on Jermyn st. is prominently shown. What publicity! A traitor and known homosexual buys his shirts at T&A.


Another customer of T&A?










But the British press are not allowed to his mention his name in connection with a court case currently in the news.


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## upnorth (Jun 18, 2007)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Hilditch currently has 11 cutaway models for sale on the web at 69.95 GBP/ea, the normal "full retail" price:


Are those shirts on sale available without pockets? I was unable to find the information on their website. I absolutely hate pockets on shirts.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

upnorth said:


> Are those shirts on sale available without pockets? I was unable to find the information on their website. I absolutely hate pockets on shirts.


Only H&K shirts with button cuffs have pockets. If you want a shirt with button cuffs and no pocket, buy a double cuff shirt and have it altered to single cuff for £7.


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

I have several H&Ks. I love the quality and workmanship, not so much the fit.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

NewYorkBuck said:


> I have several H&Ks. I love the quality and workmanship, not so much the fit.


They do run a tad full. I'm thinking of having some of my cut down to take some of the width out of the body and sleeves. Nothing radical, just to get them to fit like a BB "Luxury" model or a Coles Slim Fit (which isn't superslim, just less full than Coles's rather baggy standard RTW model).


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

PJC in NoVa said:


> They do run a tad full. I'm thinking of having some of my cut down to take some of the width out of the body and sleeves. Nothing radical, just to get them to fit like a BB "Luxury" model or a Coles Slim Fit (which isn't superslim, just less full than Coles's rather baggy standard RTW model).


PC - Ive never done that. Any idea on how pricey that would be? Thx.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

NewYorkBuck said:


> PC - Ive never done that. Any idea on how pricey that would be? Thx.


I had Mike Maldonado in San Antonio cut down some oversized Prowse and Hargood shirts for me to match a Coles Slim Fit that I included for him to use as a model. IIRC he charged $25 per shirt (this included sleeve and body narrowing plus sleeve shortening, but no collar work) plus shipping to him and $10 for registered-mail shipping back to me.

I should have had him shorten the shirt bodies, too (I don't think it would have been extra, but I'm not sure). Later when I realized that I needed this, I had my local alterations tailor do it for $15/shirt.

You can reach Mike via his site at www.collarreplacement.com


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

PJC in NoVa said:


> They do run a tad full. I'm thinking of having some of my cut down to take some of the width out of the body and sleeves. Nothing radical, just to get them to fit like a BB "Luxury" model or a Coles Slim Fit (which isn't superslim, just less full than Coles's rather baggy standard RTW model).


Have you tried H&K slimfits?


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

PJC in NoVa said:


> They do run a tad full. I'm thinking of having some of my cut down to take some of the width out of the body and sleeves. Nothing radical, just to get them to fit like a BB "Luxury" model or a Coles Slim Fit (which isn't superslim, just less full than Coles's rather baggy standard RTW model).


Coles is now a serious alternative to H&K, especially MTO.


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## IvanBoesky (Aug 13, 2007)

Nick said:


> I think about quality RTW shirts in four tiers:
> 
> 1. Outrageous. Top of the line fabrics, often very delicate, lots of handwork. At US$500+ it's sometimes hard to know whether you're paying for quality or brand. At this price some believe it makes more sense to go bespoke?
> 
> ...


You omit Charvet, but excellent outline.

If one discounts fit and considers only fabric and construction, where would bespoke services line up? What about Ascot Chang and Jantzen?


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Charvet was included in the second category. Posters here have complained about long waits for Jantsen. IMHO, the top RTW shirtmakers are Budd, H&K and T&A in alphabetical order.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Have you tried H&K slimfits?


I'd like to, but I fear I'll have to go to London to get my hands on any. I don't see any in the current Sale By Mail brochure.


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

IvanBoesky said:


> If one discounts fit and considers only fabric and construction, where would bespoke services line up? What about Ascot Chang and Jantzen?


+1

And what about CEGO? How does that hold up to H&K?


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Charvet RTW shirts have no handwork that I know of. I wouldn't include Carlo Franco's shirts in any category. I don't think Battistoni RTW has any handwork either, and doubt that Brioni's shirts do. In any event, I don't think handwork in general necessarily makes a shirt better than a machine-made shirt. 

I like Budd shirts although the attention to detail is just a tad wonky. Lovely fabrics and a very nice collar though.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

PJC in NoVa said:


> I'd like to, but I fear I'll have to go to London to get my hands on any. I don't see any in the current Sale By Mail brochure.


That is true. The slimfits were not in the previous Sale by Mail (introduced last autumn) or this year's catalogue. If you are willing to pay full price, phone the main Jermyn Street store or call the factory in Glenrothes. They will be willing to post them to you. If you call, they may be willing to offer you a discount.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

RJman said:


> I like Budd shirts although the attention to detail is just a tad wonky. Lovely fabrics and a very nice collar though.


Agreed but that is part of the Budd charm IMO. The collars on Emma Willis shirts appear similar to Budd.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

I do like the Emma Willis Collar (and their shirts) so that's good to know. If only classicwardrobe would stock more Budd. Can't seem to get them anywhere else.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Charvet was included in the second category. Posters here have complained about long waits for Jantsen. IMHO, the top RTW shirtmakers are Budd, H&K and T&A in alphabetical order.


I would include the aforementioned Emma Willis in that, and also New & Lingwood.

I got my first T&A shirt this week. The collar is incredibly stiff. I'm a 16.5 in every other brand from EW, N&L, H&K to Zegna and Barba. But I've never come across a collar that's so stiff.... it makes it tight and I reckon it's going to be uncomfortable with a tie. Is this a well-known feature of Turnbull & Asser?


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Rossini said:


> I would include the aforementioned Emma Willis in that, and also New & Lingwood.


Emma Willis is charging a hell of a lot for a Rayner & Sturges shirt or a Drake's tie. Admittedly, the cloths and patterns are nice and she knows that men don't think with their brains, so the pretty posh girls are pleasant to look at.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

RJman said:


> Emma Willis is charging a hell of a lot for a Rayner & Sturges shirt or a Drake's tie. Admittedly, the cloths and patterns are nice and she knows that men don't think with their brains, so the pretty posh girls are pleasant to look at.


How true! Thomas Pink uses the same strategy in Jermyn Street but the pretty girls are often foreign immigrants rather than posh totty.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> How true! Thomas Pink uses the same strategy in Jermyn Street but the pretty girls are often foreign immigrants rather than posh totty.


Are the girls made in Morocco or Romania too?


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

RJman said:


> Are they made in Morocco or Romania too?


The shirts are also Thailand and the UK (the latter by Glenaden in Ulster I think). The Moroccan stuff is really nasty - badly finished and horrible plastic buttons.  See my earlier threads on Pink and the slimfit range.

Most of the girls are from England and Eastern Europe. No Morrocans or Thais in Jermyn Street but they would make a pleasant addition to the staff. I'm not prejudiced against the girls just the shoddy workmanship and high prices .


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Both those countries plus Thailand and the UK (the latter by Glenaden in Ulster I think). The Moroccan stuff is really nasty - badly finished and horrible plastic buttons.  See my earlier threads on Pink and the slimfit range.


Sigh. I edited my post to make my joke a little clearer.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

RJman said:


> Sigh. I edited my post to make my joke a little clearer.


I edited mine too. :icon_smile_big:


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Yeah always good to get a bit of Pink bashing in, so to speak 

But Emma Willis shirts are great quality, it seems. If they are all Rayner & Sturgess (fabrics? cutters? tailors?) - they seem to get their own fabrics in directly? - are there other places you can get Rayner and Sturgess shirts online?


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Rossini said:


> Yeah always good to get a bit of Pink bashing in, so to speak
> 
> But Emma Willis shirts are great quality, it seems. If they are all Rayner & Sturgess (fabrics? cutters? tailors?) - they seem to get their own fabrics in directly? - are there other places you can get Rayner and Sturgess shirts online?


Rayner & Sturges are a shirtmaking company. They are now owned by Alexander Boyd, which has a shop in Artillery Lane where you can buy shirts made by Rayner & Sturges. Thomas Mahon also takes orders to MTM Rayner & Sturges shirts. No online ordering presence for R&S that I know of. Long ago Bromleys sold a couple of R&S shirts, but no longer.


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## UK2004 (Jan 13, 2007)

Was passing through Jermyn Street today, nearly every shop has a sale already, for fans of New and Lingwood, Hilditch and Key and Harvie and Hudson etc they all have reductions, they are not to my tastes but I knwo many on here are fans so thought I would point it out.


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