# Marines charged with murder



## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

While the Haditha investigation continues, now we have this:



Has US moral authority in Iraq, mighty questionable in the first place, disappeared altogether?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

THE FACE OF BATTLE, by John Keegan.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL, I just *KNEW* this was going to be your retort to the Moore thread. Never change.

Warmest regards


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## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

In my opinion we can comment when:

1) We have served in a war zone where one of our close friends has just been killed, we cannot hear because of the bomb blast, dirt is pouring down around you and dozens of people are around.

or

2) the jury comes back on this particular event.

Until then, I side with the United States Marine Corps.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> LOL, I just *KNEW* this was going to be your retort to the Moore thread. Never change.


That is it? The troops of your adopted nation (which is very welcome to you) are rampaging around the country they are supposed to have liberated murdering people and all you have is stupid remarks.

Oh wait, that's all you ever have.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

jeansguy said:


> In my opinion we can comment when:
> 
> 1) We have served in a war zone where one of our close friends has just been killed, we cannot hear because of the bomb blast, dirt is pouring down around you and dozens of people are around.


No. I can comment any time I want. In fact, I _have_ to comment when children appear to have been executed in their homes. I don't care a whit what is going on around you, murdering a two year old child, as is alleged in Haditha, is a heinous crime.



jeansguy said:


> Until then, I side with the United States Marine Corps.


I look forward to hearing from you once these investigations are completed. Initial reports do not look good.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

I'm kind of torn on this one. On the one hand, there has to be law and order and our soldiers have to act as professionally as possible under the circumstances. They can't just execute people willy nilly. On the other hand, I can put myself in their position, as someone described above, where friends are getting killed all around you, people are jeering at you, maybe throwing stuff at you, you're scared, you're frustrated, you're angry and you feel like there isn't a whole lot you can do. Under those circumstances, I can see myself wasting someone who, maybe, wasn't shooting at me.

When I was younger, I used to walk to my job at a gas station about a mile or so from my house through the woods. My shift ended at 11 pm, so at 11 pm I would be walking through the woods in a pretty scary area. My philosophy was always "strike first, ask questions later." One time somebody jumped out at me to scare me. I beat the living pulp out of them thinking that somebody was trying to jump me. Turned out it was just some kid who lived in the area that I knew that was trying to give me a fright. This is kind of the same thing, but on a much greater level.


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## arbitrage (Jan 13, 2006)

Gentlemen,

As previously stated, do not feed the troll.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

gmac said:


> No. I can comment any time I want. In fact, I _have_ to comment when children appear to have been executed in their homes. I don't care a whit what is going on around you, murdering a two year old child, as is alleged in Haditha, is a heinous crime.
> 
> I look forward to hearing from you once these investigations are completed. Initial reports do not look good.


gmac; Have you ever been in combat; have you ever in your life served any purpose or interest other than your own? And yet, you feel empowered to stand in judgement of others who are far more actively involved than you would ever consider becoming. I, for one, find your posts to be overly predictable and...tireing. Sensing the glee with which you embrace this type of event, I feel sullied by simply reading the content of your present post(s).


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

That's right newbie, just avoid the questions you can't answer.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

*There you go again.*

Gmac,

The US is a nation of laws, if a few Marines have committed crimes they will be punished. Funny thing is that while you take seeming glee in every American misdeed I have not once read a post about where you condemn North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma, etc. though you have in the past called terrorism in Iraq legitimate. And you, I and everyone on this board owe far more to the Marine Corps than we will ever be able to repay.

And I noticed you chose not to comment about the George Galloway thread, a man who you have lionized in the past. Not so surprising that you like to talk to about the golf courses you've played but feel less desire to defend your affection for a man who calls for the murder of Tony Blair.

What makes you happier, defending tyranny or attacking the US? If only you spent a tenth as much time exploring the record of Saddam, but facts mean little to people like you.

Karl


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

jeansguy said:


> In my opinion we can comment when:
> 
> 1) We have served in a war zone where one of our close friends has just been killed, we cannot hear because of the bomb blast, dirt is pouring down around you and dozens of people are around.
> 
> ...


You make a very good point Jeansguy. Right or wrong, "we" can not judge the actions of these soldiers unless we've been in combat.

I believe this war will go down in history like the Vietnam war did. When society has a chance to look back on it in hindsight, they'll say it was not necessary, we lost too many soldiers and no benefit to this country was gained. On the other hand, like the soldiers who served in Vietnam, the soldiers today will say the went to the Middle East, did what their country asked of them, but like Vietnam they couldn't tell the good guys from the bad guys.

I can't imagine this story ends on a positive note. On the surface the slaughtering of innocent children is unforgivable. Did our soldiers actually kill those children? Is it not possible those children were "given up" to further a different cause or agenda? We may never know the actual truth.

I'm sure the story will get a significant amount of media attention and numerous "experts" will give their opinions.

The bottom line is, we were not there that day (I'm assuming none of the involved soldiers are on this website looking for ways to make their OD BDU'S contrast better with their Urban Camo BDU's) so we will never know what those soldiers experienced. Most importantly, we can't say what we would or woldn't have done having been in the same situation.

If they acted inappropriately then they should be punished by military laws, not tried in the media!


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## Full Canvas (Feb 16, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Gmac,
> . . . Funny thing is that while you take seeming glee in every American misdeed I have not once read a post about where you condemn North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma, etc. though you have in the past called terrorism in Iraq legitimate. . . .
> What makes you happier, defending tyranny or attacking the US? If only you spent a tenth as much time exploring the record of Saddam, but facts mean little to people like you.
> 
> Karl


Karl,

Mrs. FC and I are back from our annual "holiday" in Minsk.

I notice that Mr. Gmac did not elect to remark in your thread about Belarus. https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=50136 What a surprise!

Mr. Gmac provides a great and valued counterpoint for _The Interchange_. Certainly his lively opinions serve a purpose here. Maybe we should take up an AAAC collection (aren't such "charitable" contributions tax deductible?:icon_smile_big to fund a trip to Belarus for our fellow forum member. _The Interchange_ needs a *sympathetic* correspondent from such areas. If he does well, we can send him to Cuba next. And then . . .

I suspect he might be surprised at the reception his opinions would receive in Belarus.

Kind regards, _et blithering cetera_
___________________________________


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

FC,

Dobry vecher and welcome back to the free world. Gmac would just chase the Belarussian girls and probably be invited to join Lukashenko's cabinet. Perhaps we should arrange for him to get picked up by the FSB in Moscow and he then he can discuss the joys of socialism and British Open in a dank Lubyanka cell. Better yet lets send him to the DPRK where can laugh it up with Kim. 

Anyway, what is the news from Minsk? Last I heard was that Lukashenko was threatening to ban overflight rights for European airlines. Is the Polish minority issue still in the news? I know that Warsaw is very unhappy with the actions against the Polish minority. And when are you off to Corsica, I would love to you have write about it a bit bc its a place I have always wanted to visit.

Poka,

Karl


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> Gmac,
> 
> The US is a nation of laws, if a few Marines have committed crimes they will be punished. Funny thing is that while you take seeming glee in every American misdeed I have not once read a post about where you condemn North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma, etc. though you have in the past called terrorism in Iraq legitimate. And you, I and everyone on this board owe far more to the Marine Corps than we will ever be able to repay.
> 
> ...


excellent post.

what I can say, from personal experience, is that in the middle east, it is very very common for fighters (terrorists, insurgents or uniformed soldiers) to mingle with families. in the IDF, as much as it may seem unlikly, all of the heros that we were tought about, both in basic training and in advanced training, were men who had risked their lives to save enemy civillians. we were tought, again and again, the value of protecting enemy civillian lives.

none the less, civillians were killed, by accident, occasionally.

I have had the interesting expereince of being on the recieving end of 3 mines/roadside bombs and ambushes. the effect on your senses is not minor - and the standard operating procedure, for us (we seldom operating in areas with dense population) was to produce 360 degrees of 0.30 calibre chain fed fire - maybe 1000 or so rounds of heavy ammo in a circle. effectivly, an ambush like that, launched from a house full of civillians could very well result in a house full of dead civillians.

the details will be known later. now, I feel badly for all those innocents who died, and the men who may be facing both the punishment of the military, as well as a life of knowing that they killed civillians.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Seems I can't win, eh? I post in a thread, everyone gets all crazy, I don't post in a thread and it's "ooh, why aren't you posting about this?".

What should it be boys? Shall I pipe up or keep quiet?

As for not judging becaue I haven't been in combat, it is a ridiculous point. Can judges not make rulings on criminals unless they have been in law enforcement? How can George Bush operate as C in C - he has never been in combat Simplistic and a waste of bandwidth.

Karl, the reason I haven't commented on Zimbabwe, N Korea, etc is:
a. I haven't seen threads on them, and 
b. they are obviously rogue regimes run by thugs who should be removed as soon as possible (although the USA doesn't seem too interested). The US marines charged and under investigation are supposed to be representatives of a higher goal, at least according to the rhetoric, and thus it is far more shocking to hear of them allegedly committing such atrocities.

I must have missed the Belarus thread in the website change over. I'll go back and post on it to make you happy. I'll even give you my pearls of wisdom on Gorgeous George.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

And please stop with the ridiculous crap about people who didn't support the invasion of Iraq must love Saddam.

It is just stoopid.....

Globetrotter - the early indications from the Haditha investigation are that civilians, including children, were shot point blank in the back of the head, execution style. If so, this was no tragic miscalculation or desperate attempt to save themselves and their buddies - it was cold blooded murder.

The investigation will determine what happened, presuming there isn't a My Lai style whitewash, and we will know. I don't doubt that civillians are killed in battle but we need to know what really happened.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

gmac said:


> And please stop with the ridiculous crap about people who didn't support the invasion of Iraq must love Saddam.
> 
> It is just stoopid.....
> 
> ...


and if this turns out to be the case, those guilty should be punished to the full extent of the law. bearing arms has reponsibilities, and the protection of the innocent, with every possible effort, is one of the formost. as I have no knowledge of this case, I will await the information from the investigation and the (possible) trial.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gmac,

I too am shocked when a few members of the US military commit atrocities and if the men in this instance are guilty I hope they are punished. But what I resent is that the focus is always on the rare instances of misbehavior and not on the tremendous amount of good done by the US military. And where was the media in documenting the crimes of Saddam the past 15 years? Where is media now talking about the atrocity agianst Chinese political prisoners or the or discussing the plight of homosexuals in Iran or landowners in Zimbabwe. The US is far from perfect but critics focus almost exclusively on every misstep we make while the real evil in the world mostly gets a free pass.

Lets us investigate the alleged crimes of the Marines. Let us punish those who are guilty and let us institute necessary reforms but let us not forget who the real enemies are and the actions we must take. 

Karl


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

boy, i'll probably get slaughtered here for this, but here goes:

gentlemen,

fact is there are a lot of atrocities and crimes involving american servicemen all over the world. perhaps it is not so well known in america except when something as heinous as allegedly murdered toddlers are involved. i do not believe this incident or another incident i am going to point out reflects the united states armed forces, the us government nor even the american people. these are costly mistakes done by individuals who were at the time affiliated with the military forces. they should be put in trial as such. and no quarters should be spared.

now, here in the philippines, a few servicemen were arrested late last year for allegedly either gang-raping a young woman or for allegedly being raped by one soldier while the others were cheering on inside a moving van. this happened whilst these guys were on r&r in subic bay, a former united states naval base. the poor lady was then literally thrown off the curb without her underpants on. these men truly left a bad impression on the organization they represent in the eyes of a lot of people here:



Timeline of alleged Subic rape

First posted 06:12am (Mla time) Nov 07, 2005
By Tonette Orejas, Ansbert Joaquin
Inquirer News Service

NOV. 1
9 p.m.

The victim, her stepsister and the latter's boyfriend, Christopher James Mills, go to Neptune bar. Victim dances with US soldier surnamed Reynolds. This man is later mistakenly questioned as a suspect. (The driver fails to recognize him as one of the men who rode in the Starex van. Later, the US Marines' logbook shows Reynolds returning to the USS Essex at 9:30 p.m. Investigators find no reason to detain him).

About 10 p.m. Grand Leisure Hotel

Stepsister invites victim to return to Grand Leisure Hotel where they are staying. Hotel is less than a km north of Neptune. The victim prefers to stay longer at the bar and her stepsister leaves her there. Later, Mills volunteers to look for the victim but fails to find her.

10 p.m. Aresi Restaurant

Driver and a US Marine surnamed Carpenter dine at Aresi Restaurant, less than 1 km north of Neptune. Four servicemen call to tell Carpenter and driver to go to Neptune. (Driver says he has been driving for three servicemen for a week. He identifies the two others as Smith and Boris).

10:30 p.m. Neptune with Dewey Avenue street post

The group gathers at Neptune. Soldiers order driver to go inside the bar. He is given a bottle of beer. About 15 to 20 minutes later, driver is told to prepare the van as they are leaving. The five men and the victim ride the van. Driver says he is not sure if victim is lucid at this point. Driver is instructed to go around Dewey Avenue.

As van travels this route, Carpenter shouts: "Go, go, Smith." The three men take turns shouting "F**k! F**k!" The three men stand on their knees, their backs to the driver. Driver says the group did not take turns raping the victim. Driver tries to switch on the light inside the van. Carpenter stops him. Carpenter instead turns up the radio louder. The incident takes 10 to 20 minutes.

The Starex van stops somewhere along Alava Pier and there unloads the girl. Driver says victim's pants lowered to her knees.

11:15 p.m. Subic Telecom-Subic Chamber of Commerce offices

Eight people are at the Alava Pier, between the Subic Telecom and Subic Chamber of Commerce offices, to watch US soldiers return to the ship (this is a practice by locals during the years when the US Navy was still at Subic until 1992). They say a Starex van pulled over and a black man alighted and sat on the pavement. Two Caucasians emerge later carrying the victim, by her hands and feet, as if she were a pig ("parang baboy"). The victim has her shirt and underwear on. Another Caucasian emerges from the van, throws away the remaining beer in a bottle. He rolls the bottle in the direction of the victim. He gets in the van and throws a pair of pants the victim's way.

The eight witnesses get near the victim. They say she looks "groggy." A condom is hanging from her underwear while a trip ticket falls on the pavement. The ticket belongs to Star Ways Tours and Travel owned by one George Day at Clark. Witnesses call an SBMA mobile patrol to report a "possible rape." They fetch victim's stepsister at the hotel.

NOV. 2

2 a.m.

Victim is taken to James Gordon Hospital in Olongapo City, just outside the freeport, for a medico-legal test. The last thing she remembers is she felt dizzy at Neptune.

"Liberty" or recreation time for US troops ends.

6 a.m.

The search for suspects ends after they are presented in a lineup before the van driver.

9 a.m. Alava Pier

USS Essex leaves Alava Pier.

11 a.m. LED office

US Naval Intelligence Service (NIS) begins investigation, gets statements from victim, driver and eight witnesses at the SBMA's law enforcement department (LED).

Victim tells investigators that the last thing she remembers is she felt dizzy at Neptune bar.

NOV. 3

US NIS presents five suspects to SBMA Chair Feliciano Salonga and Administrator Armand Arreza.

2:30 p.m.

A complaint for rape is filed against the suspects before the Olongapo City prosecutor's office.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Gmac,
> 
> I too am shocked when a few members of the US military commit atrocities and if the men in this instance are guilty I hope they are punished. But what I resent is that the focus is always on the rare instances of misbehavior and not on the tremendous amount of good done by the US military.


Let's face it Karl, if there were a multiple killing by the NYPD under investigation at the same time as the NY cops were building soccer fields, which story do you think is going to lead on the 6 o'clock news?

Doing your job right isn't newsworthy. Screwing it up royally is.

And most coverage of the US military by the US media is pretty fawning. However, as the public sours on this war the media will follow suit.



Karl89 said:


> And where was the media in documenting the crimes of Saddam the past 15 years? Where is media now talking about the atrocity agianst Chinese political prisoners or the or discussing the plight of homosexuals in Iran or landowners in Zimbabwe. The US is far from perfect but critics focus almost exclusively on every misstep we make while the real evil in the world mostly gets a free pass.


Karl, the harsh reality is that nobody cared. The suffering of strange people in far away lands doesn't make good copy.

We stood by as hundreds of thousands were slaughtered in Bosnia, did literally nothing as even more died in Rwanda. And what did America care about? Who the president was doinking.

No pass for the rest of the world either - we're all sitting back in our easy chairs watching sport and reaching for another beer.

While I opposed the invasion of Iraq - not through any love for Saddam but a belief that other means could have been less damaging in changing the regime there - the one thing it could have done was set a positive example for western intervention in the internal affairs of other failed states. Events like those we are discussing makes it hard to see how we can take the moral high ground against these guys.


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## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

gmac said:


> As for not judging becaue I haven't been in combat, it is a ridiculous point. Can judges not make rulings on criminals unless they have been in law enforcement? How can George Bush operate as C in C - he has never been in combat Simplistic and a waste of bandwidth.


Don't oversimplify.

All I am saying is that the streets are not empty of civilians as they would be in a video game.

Above you mention a two year old child being shot. This sounds horrible. What if a parent had stuffed a live grenade into the hands of the two year old? What if the two year old was wearing a bomb vest? What if the two year old was being held hostage and his death was an accident as a result of trying to kill the kidnapper?

I believe in freedom of the press. However, there is an ongoing investigation right now, and believe me - the press does not have access to the important details. The important details are the ones that are pertinent in a court of law that may prove the guilt or innocence of the accused. They will be released to the media only when the case is over, and as long as they do not disclose any operational secrets.

Unfortunately, what happens all too often is that the press releases a story like this, it becomes sensationalized, and then the story fades into the pages of history.

In the meantime, the court system moves forward, the accused are acquitted of their crimes and everybody goes free. However, the media doesn't report this becuase there is something else going on that day. This leaves the public thinking that the USMC kills babies, when in reality what they did is save the lives of their brothers, protect the innocent and the interests of the government.

There are always three sides to every story, and one must look past the words on paper to find out exactly what happened.

I don't mean that all media types are biased, just that there are always details left untold and unsaid. I know people who have been to Iraq, and their stories are much different than those I watch on the CBC. Is one group lying? Or did they have different experiences?


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

I'm not going to post details as I'll just be accused or revelling in it - as if I enjoy murdered children - but there are new reports of a seperate incident where US troops rounded up civilians, including children, and shot them.

I go back to my original question - how can the US assert any kind of moral authority in Iraq if these reports are confirmed?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gmac,

Horrible things happen in war. Did the UK have moral authority against the Nazis after "Bomber" Harris and the RAF killed tens of thousands in Dresden? Did the USSR have moral authority in the same war after Soviet troops raped hundreds and thousands of women in Berlin? Americans are no more virtuous than any other nation but we are a nation of laws and the murder of civilians is not official policy and guilty parties will be punished. The murder of civilians was policy under Saddam and IS the policy of Islamo-fascism and there was NO accountability under law in both those cases.

Just bc our policy isn't perfect and just bc we are not without sin does not mean we surrender moral authority. Indeed the fact that we do hold those Americans who commit war crimes accountable is evidence that we do have moral authority in regard to Saddam and Islamo-fascism. Its unfair and dangerous to hold the US and the West up to the impossible standard of perfection while the crimes of enemies go unchallenged. The perfect cannot be the enemy of the good. And just in case you don't know, the US is good.

Karl


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

gmac said:


> I'm not going to post details as I'll just be accused or revelling in it - as if I enjoy murdered children - but there are new reports of a seperate incident where US troops rounded up civilians, including children, and shot them.
> 
> I go back to my original question - how can the US assert any kind of moral authority in Iraq if these reports are confirmed?


You're missing a very basic, fundamental point. The Marines are on trial. Not by a civilian--you're not qualified to be the judge, no matter what you think about "ridiculous points." As long as the law reigns supreme, you have no leg to stand on regarding moral authority. Until you figure that out, I am too much of a gentleman (barely) to tell you where to shove this comment:



gmac said:


> ...The troops of your adopted nation (which is very welcome to you) are rampaging around the country they are supposed to have liberated murdering people...


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## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

gmac said:


> I go back to my original question - how can the US assert any kind of moral authority in Iraq if these reports are confirmed?


Very simply. IF (and big if) these reports are confirmed, they would not have been sanctioned by the United States Government. IF the allegations prove to be true the perpetrators will spend the rest of their natural lives behind prison, possibly even facing execution. That is what holds the west moraly above. Nobody is saying that accidents don't happen, or even that people don't do bad things. Waht we do say, is that people are held to account. would it bring back the lives? no. Is it more than the Syrian or Iranian government would do if a bunch of their soldiers had killed 24 innocent americans? yes. And there is your moral authority.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Why you scare me....*



gmac said:


> I go back to my original question - how can the US assert any kind of moral authority in Iraq if these reports are confirmed?


No sane person could ask this question.

You do not see the difference between Saddam *personally torturing people*, his sons video taping torture sessions they commit, and an organized genocide vs. a country ready to punish rogue *foot soldiers*? That is the difference in moral authority.

If Dubya was out sticking Black and Decker drills through people's hands, you would have a case. When the US has people getting court martialled over putting underwear on prisoner's heads, etc., there is a clear difference in the eyes of any thinking person.

However, as I noted in the other thread, you will ignore the facts and just insult me. Please carry on.

Warmest regards


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> No sane person could ask this question.


When the self proclaimed "liberators" are allegedly murdering children and old people then I think the question is extremely relevant.

Or is saddam's behavior your baseline - anything better than that and you are doing just fine? Setting the bar pretty low, huh?


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

gmac said:


> When the self proclaimed "liberators" are allegedly murdering children and old people then I think the question is extremely relevant.
> 
> Or is saddam's behavior your baseline - anything better than that and you are doing just fine? Setting the bar pretty low, huh?


Yup, GMAC, we (as Americans) are bad people. And we're purposely bad people.

And we won't rest until we're evil and oppress all others on the globe.

Happy now? You've got your answer.

Now screw.

Dope . . .


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Dodged the question again.*



gmac said:


> When the self proclaimed "liberators" are allegedly murdering children and old people then I think the question is extremely relevant.


Predictable....boring and derivative too in many recent posts. Losing your edge I'd say. Although this time, you did do semi-laughable, you dodged your own question!



gmac said:


> I go back to my original question - how can the US assert any kind of moral authority in Iraq if these reports are confirmed?


And I answered:



Wayfarer said:


> You do not see the difference between Saddam personally torturing people, his sons video taping torture sessions they commit, and an organized genocide vs. a country ready to punish rogue foot soldiers? That is the difference in moral authority.


Your original question was not "relevance". Answer your original question now: can you or cannot you not see the difference in moral authority between the two situations, i.e. country's leader and his sons personally torturing people vs. a country that holds basic foot soldiers accountable for their action?

Warmest "lunatic economics" regards


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Avoiding the question again?

You're not much good at this are you wayfarer?

Is saddam's behaviour your baseline and anything marginally better than that is acceptable to you?

Not to me it isn't.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gmac said:


> Avoiding the question again?
> 
> You're not much good at this are you wayfarer?
> 
> ...


See what I mean? Derivative. And still not answering your own question.

Warmest "lunatic economic" regards


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Answer the question, kid - if you can....


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gmac said:


> Answer the question, kid - if you can....


Son, you just really do not interact well with others, do you? This is not an interogation (I think you would make a GREAT Git-Mo guard!). I challenged you to answer your own question framed within the context I provided. That is where things stop until you answer. You do not get to ask all the questions and provide no replies. Your parents were wrong son, you are not special. You have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Sorry to have to break that to you.

Now, if you want to continue, so you see the moral difference in the two stances I described above or not?

Warmest "lunatic economic" regards


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Well, this game of verbal ping pong has been a lot of fun but if you are unwilling to answer my questions then I think I'm quitting.

I really do have better things to do.

See ya!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Just no idea...*



gmac said:


> Well, this game of verbal ping pong has been a lot of fun but if you are unwilling to answer my questions then I think I'm quitting.


Even here you are drawing false comparisons. You see son, the ball goes *back and forth* in ping pong. If this thread were ping pong, you would volley the ball to me, I would return it, and you would watch it go by you. You have yet to return.

So now that I will not let you play your usual rhetorical shanigans, you are taking your marbles and going home, declaring yourself the victor too no doubt. You really are losing your edge.

Warmest "lunatic economic" regards


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gmac,

You say that marginally better behavior than Saddam is unacceptable to you. Two things - the US behavior is far better than marginally better than Saddam's and you know it and secondly you have admitted that you were perfectly willing to allow Saddam to remain in power. So while Saddam's behavior is acceptable (how did you expect to remove him? Through the ballot box?) marginally better behavior (you seem to grudgingly admit that the US is "marginally" better than Saddam) is not. Perhaps your twisted mind can reconcile this inconsistecy but the rest of us cannot.

Karl


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## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

gmac said:


> Well, this game of verbal ping pong has been a lot of fun but if you are unwilling to answer my questions then I think I'm quitting.
> 
> I really do have better things to do.
> 
> See ya!


I answered your question. No retort?


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Gmac,
> 
> You say that marginally better behavior than Saddam is unacceptable to you. Two things - the US behavior is far better than marginally better than Saddam's and you know it


How many children and old people have to be murdered? How many Iraqi civillians have to be shot by accident by trigger happy US troops. Replacing a psychotic dictator who brutalized his people with an occupying force that seems to care little for the safety of the local population is simply not good enough. As Powell, said, you broke Iraq, now you have to fix it. Or accept your role as an occupation force and act accordingly.



Karl89 said:


> secondly you have admitted that you were perfectly willing to allow Saddam to remain in power.


I said I thought there were better ways of removing him than by an invasion which has turned into a disaster. Very different, as you ought to know.



Karl89 said:


> So while Saddam's behavior is acceptable (how did you expect to remove him? Through the ballot box?) marginally better behavior (you seem to grudgingly admit that the US is "marginally" better than Saddam) is not. Perhaps your twisted mind can reconcile this inconsistecy but the rest of us cannot.


Karl, by lying about what I have said and putting words in my mouth you merely serve to demonstrate the poverty of your own arguments. I have never said Saddam's "behavior is acceptable" or anything even remotely like that, and basing your arguments on such patent falsehoods makes this debate rather pointless, no?


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

jeansguy said:


> Very simply. IF (and big if) these reports are confirmed, they would not have been sanctioned by the United States Government. IF the allegations prove to be true the perpetrators will spend the rest of their natural lives behind prison, possibly even facing execution. That is what holds the west moraly above.


What, like My Lai? Hundreds of dead civillians - old people, children, babies, women. Total jail time? 2 days.



jeansguy said:


> Nobody is saying that accidents don't happen, or even that people don't do bad things. Waht we do say, is that people are held to account. would it bring back the lives? no. Is it more than the Syrian or Iranian government would do if a bunch of their soldiers had killed 24 innocent americans? yes. And there is your moral authority.


It doesn't matter what the Iranian or Syrian government _might_ do _if_ their troops committed such a crime. The US led a supposed liberation of Iraq and now those liberators are accused of murdering civillians in cold blood - not in the heat of battle but shooting them in the back of the head from point blank range.

If the US is to have any kind of moral authority then not only do the perpetrators of this and other massacres have to be brought to justice but Iraq has to become a place where civillians can trust American troops to protect them - I am aware of how difficult that is while fighting an insurgency but failure to do so means Iraq has simply swapped Saddam's terror for that of the occupying army, regardless of elections and new soccer fields.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Hate replaces logic....*



gmac said:


> How many Iraqi civillians have to be shot by accident by trigger happy US troops. Replacing a psychotic dictator who brutalized his people with an occupying force that seems to care little for the safety of the local population is simply not good enough.


Poor gmac, just can not think straight. Let me help. What we have here is the fallacy of composition. It is not "an occupying force" that might or might not have committed these crimes. It is a minutely tiny portion of said force. Can you see the difference gmac? Let me put it in leftist terms. Some muslims are terrorists. Now, if someone said,"There all muslims are terrorists" you would be in here slobbering over how it was a "tiny minority" and "don't paint with broad strokes" etc., etc. and you would be right. So just as Case #2 works, so works Case #1.

Unless you are gmac on a soap box playing rhetoric games.

Warmest "lunatic economic" regards


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

In the case of Me Lai you fail to acknowledge the instrument that stopped further slaughter. A slick landed and the pilot ordered his door gunner to shoot any american who made any attempt to fire on civilians. That pilot revisited Me Lai ( his door gunner sadly passed away) and was met with great joy and honour.Yes, amid the insanity there WAS moral authority in Vietnam, and YES there is moral authority in Iraq. Your insults, arrogance and obvious anti americanism remind me of The Wizard of Oz. If anyone ever pulls your curtain the pathetic creature revealed will be lower than the spincter of a snake. I don't like you Gmac. I may be a Liberal, but I am above all else a patriot who loves his country. Attack it at your mortal peril less the curtain be pulled.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Kav said:


> In the case of Me Lai you fail to acknowledge the instrument that stopped further slaughter. A slick landed and the pilot ordered his door gunner to shoot any american who made any attempt to fire on civilians.


You want to take the credit for stopping the slaughter at My Lai?

You don't think that would sound a little better if someone had shown that kind of moral authority _before_ those soldiers slaughtered 500 or so men, women and children? _Before_ they herded them into a ditch and machine gunned them?



Kav said:


> Your insults, arrogance and obvious anti americanism remind me of The Wizard of Oz. If anyone ever pulls your curtain the pathetic creature revealed will be lower than the spincter of a snake. I don't like you Gmac. I may be a Liberal, but I am above all else a patriot who loves his country. Attack it at your mortal peril less the curtain be pulled.


Nice Wizard of Oz analogy!

You may not like me Kav - hardly makes you unique on the Interchange - but I really couldn't care less. Make a sensible point and we can talk about it, otherwise stick to the Judy Garland references an get out of my way.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Oh really?*



gmac said:


> Make a sensible point and we can talk about it...


Seriously, you need to get a grip on reality if you think you actually discuss sensible points son. You are the same person that refuses to acknowledge the difference in moral authority between the US and Saddam's reign. When confronted with a fact that is contrary to your argument, you simply insult the presenter and declare you have graced with another "lethal" reply. It is at the point where it has become sad.

Warmest "lunatic economic" regards


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Trenditional said:


> You make a very good point Jeansguy. Right or wrong, "we" can not judge the actions of these soldiers unless we've been in combat.


What sophistic BS! It does not require being a murderer to judge murder wrong. To follow this "logic", you would have to have been a despot to sit in judgement on Saddam Hussein. I mean, after all, who amongst us truly understands the kind of pressures necessary to run that poor country.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Die of a horrible, lingering disease Gmac.Gonorhea and syphillus seems the likely diagnosis. You get out of MY WAY. You can hide behind your monitor, but someday that misaligned mandible will go off in public and somebody will rearrange your bridgework.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Kav said:


> Die of a horrible, lingering disease Gmac.Gonorhea and syphillus seems the likely diagnosis.


You obviously seem to think I'm getting a lot more action than is the case....


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gmac said:


> You obviously seem to think I'm getting a lot more action than is the case....


Okay, that was funny.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Hardly, both diseases can move through the placenta.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Kav said:


> Die of a horrible, lingering disease Gmac.Gonorhea and syphillus seems the likely diagnosis. You get out of MY WAY. You can hide behind your monitor, but someday that misaligned mandible will go off in public and somebody will rearrange your bridgework.


This is a disgusting view of your pre-pubescent mind. Either go and play nicely with the other children in the sandbox, or go to your room and leave this discussion to adults.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Karl asked in the other thread my thoughts on the moral authority of the Allies in 1945 after the catastrophic bombing of Dresden and the bestial behaviour of the Red Army on the march to Berlin.

Both are excellent points and I had meant to bring these up before we got sidetracked on my imminet death of a fatal STD.

My answer is, I would say that:
a. in 1945 the Allies were in a total war. There was no talk of "liberation" - Germany was to be conquered. The Germans had sown the wind and were now reaping the whirlwind. I think the contrast is clear with the purported aims of Operation "Iraqi Freedom", and
b. the moral authority of the allies was seriously compromised by the acts mentioned and by othere acts, notably the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Bomber Harris is considered a war criminal by some in the UK and Stalin had to issue personal orders to put an end to the madness in Berlin (probably not for humanitarian reasons but who knows why)

I don't expect perfection from the United States military - there have been plenty of shootings of apparently innocent civillians in Iraq at roadblocks and other similar circumstances. These things happen - tragic for the individuals but almost inevitable.

The circumstances in the alleged massacre at Haditha are well beyond that. The execution of innocents, including young children, is a disgraceful crime and must be treated as such.

I'm not done on the RAF point and will return to it. However, I have to run for now.

To be continued...


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

It is a logical contradiction to discuss war and moral authority in the same breath. To wage war of any kind for any reason is to divest oneself of any moral authority. Yes, arguably, it might be the lesser of two evils; it is, nevertheless, evil, and no moral authority ever derives from an act of evil.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip said:


> It is a logical contradiction to discuss war and moral authority in the same breath. To wage war of any kind for any reason is to divest oneself of any moral authority. Yes, arguably, it might be the lesser of two evils; it is, nevertheless, evil, and no moral authority ever derives from an act of evil.


You have made some propositions here. What you have not done is provide some arguments, reasons, premises, etc. why you have come to these conclusions. I mean, imans talk of war being "holy", the Crusades were said to be "holy", even secular rulers morally justified wars. Why should I believe you over them with no reasons stated?

Warmest regards


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Rip, Actually I do hang with children who played in a sandbox. They are the young men and women who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and now sit in underfunded V.A. hospital lobbies under the beatific smile of George W's portrait. It's wierd, I remember visiting this building as a child when my grandfather ( WW1 and 2) was in and holding the doors open for Spanish American War vets. My uncles; a Blackwidow nightfighter pilot and a landing boat coxswain were still young men. Now I am the older generation of Vietnam Era vets and there are these- kids who could be my sons sitting in this effing lobby in wheelchairs or in crutches with grotesque wounds and missing limbs. And they don't complain, and the Vietnam Vets talk about the wheelchair races they held in the late 70s and early 80s late at night down the main drive while bringing sodas from the snack bar and holding it for the quadraplegic controlling his chair with a mouth operated joystick. And we all both look forward to, and dread the long shuttlebus trip back to our respective nieghborhoods because the airconditioning is out on 3 of 4 vans and it's hot in SOCAL and an 18 Y/O body in armour in Bagdhad is one thing while that half destroyed body in a wheelchair quite another. And then I log on hear and GMAC spews his non stop america bashing with a paintbrush delivering broad strokes the envy of a graffiti artist climbing a billboard at 2 A.M. and you have the chutzpa to find fault in MY gut response? Tough Manure.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rip,

The Nazis would still be in power if we followed your maxim. What you wrote is pure folly.

Karl


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Rip,
> 
> The Nazis would still be in power if we followed your maxim. What you wrote is pure folly.
> 
> Karl


This is so typical of the thinking of those to whom war is a usable option. If we followed my maxim, the Nazis would never have been in power. Those of you who believe war is a valid option never get very far in preventing war, simply because it's always in your back pocket as the final option, so all the best thinking is done with that in mind. Imagine what you might come up with if the possibility of war simply didn't exist. Sadly, to those with your mindset, such a concept is beyond your capability to comprehend.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*What Supercilious Bunk*



rip said:


> This is so typical of the thinking of those to whom war is a usable option. If we followed my maxim, the Nazis would never have been in power. Those of you who believe war is a valid option never get very far in preventing war, simply because it's always in your back pocket as the final option, so all the best thinking is done with that in mind. Imagine what you might come up with if the possibility of war simply didn't exist. Sadly, to those with your mindset, such a concept is beyond your capability to comprehend.


Seriously, what holier than thou tripe. Go talk to Chamberlin and the Czechs and ask them just how well appeasement works. It is laughable that you would say people that do not share your unrealistic mindset lack a capability to comprehend. It is laughable, because people like you cannot seem to comprehend it only takes one party to cause a fight or a war. You might be the biggest pacifist in the world but seriously, that will not stop you from having the pulp pounded out of you. Unless you can get all several billion of us to agree to non-agression, to borrow from Orwell, pacifism can only exist for any time within the borders of a country with a strong military.

Warmest regards


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Almost Forgot...*



rip said:


> It is a logical contradiction to discuss war and moral authority in the same breath. To wage war of any kind for any reason is to divest oneself of any moral authority. Yes, arguably, it might be the lesser of two evils; it is, nevertheless, evil, and no moral authority ever derives from an act of evil.


Still no logic to back the propositions.

Warmest regards


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## kawasakiguy37 (Jan 2, 2006)

Just becuase we can understand why they would do such a thing does not make it ok nor exempt them from any punishment - Thankfully, we have a judiciary system setup to *hopefully* give them a fair trial.

Although, I have to say the killing of a child so young does indeed look rather bad.....


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Still no logic to back the propositions.
> 
> Warmest regards


It doesn't require logic to confirm the obvious, which obviously escapes you ( BTW, I would like for you to point out just where I mentioned appeasment). As I mentioned before, the concept of NO WAR is incomprehensible to people of your mentality. You war mongers keep quoting the same old tired adages. Please try to come up with something new to justify the killing of hundreds and thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. You disgust me with your bloodlust and your vapid excuses for it.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rip,


Must be nice in the ivory tower. The problem is that people like Hitler and bin laden DO believe in war. It would be nice if everything were perfect and peace and prosperity reigned until then I offer you an invitation to join the real world.

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip said:


> It doesn't require logic to confirm the obvious, which obviously escapes you ( BTW, I would like for you to point out just where I mentioned appeasment). As I mentioned before, the concept of NO WAR is incomprehensible to people of your mentality. You war mongers keep quoting the same old tired adages. Please try to come up with something new to justify the killing of hundreds and thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. You disgust me with your bloodlust and your vapid excuses for it.


I have bloodlust? Please, share with us all how I have indicated this. Please, pray tell, enumerate for me the hundreds of thousands of people killed you claim I am justifying. Also, people of my mentality? Please, again, enumerate what my mentality might be, other than not yours. If "my mentality" is simply one of requiring facts and/or logic, and this is what disgusts you so much, and not allowing idiotic pontification as a thesis, then I concede you the point dear sir.

I can just tell I have a new plaything here.

Warmest regards


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Rip,
> 
> Must be nice in the ivory tower. The problem is that people like Hitler and bin laden DO believe in war. It would be nice if everything were perfect and peace and prosperity reigned until then I offer you an invitation to join the real world.
> 
> Karl


Certainly, people who have a greater vision than you must live in an ivory tower. That's such a trite response. Surely you can do better than that, or perhaps not.

I refuse to accept that engagement with your "real world" requires the kind of violence and murder you seem to so willingly, even eagerly, endorse. Hitler could have been stopped in 1932, ben Laden in the early 90s, all without resorting to war. It only requires for someone to finally say, "enough!" and mean it. But that seems too difficult for you to grasp; war is just so much easier. Why think when you can fight? That's the American way... just ask Dubya!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*ENOUGH!!*



rip said:


> Hitler could have been stopped in 1932...all without resorting to war. It only requires for someone to finally say, "enough!" and mean it.


So then Hitler just needed a stern lecture from someone that really meant it? Wow, that's an eye opener.

Warmest regards


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rip,

If only everyone thought like you did! Unfortunately geopolitical strategy cannot be reduced to "Can't we all just get along?" Are you so pompous to think you have stumbled upon some Nobel Prize winning formula to world peace?

First Hitler was elected in 1933 and second how could he have been stopped without use of military force? Had France backed by the UK and the Soviet Union stood by Czechoslovakia in 1938 then perhaps Hitler could have been defeated or removed by the Wehrmacht BUT they would have had to risk war to achieve this goal.

And did you propose stopping bin Laden in the 90's? By asking him politely to stop?

Stop posting in this thread as you make Gmac look downright reasonable in comparison.

You have better taste in cars than in your proposals for world peace. Stick to cars.

Karl


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## In Mufti (Jan 28, 2005)

With regard to the subject of the thread: 

If these Marines did not act the way they were supposed to and violated their standing orders and the law, they will be charged and prosecuted under the UCMJ. We’ve been through this before. These things happen in war. Lots of bad things happen in war, in fact, mostly it is bad things that happen in war. If they gunned these people down in cold blood, they should be punished to the full extent. They are a disgrace to all of the men and women who do their jobs properly every day. They would be a disgrace to every person who has worn the Marine uniform. 

There is no way to know what happened there until the investigation is completed. 

Most soldiers and Marines take more chances to avoid hurting civilians. I was there, I saw it every day. But parts of Iraq are very dangerous for everyone: Americans, Iraqis, third country civilians—every living creature. That’s just the way it is. If you haven’t been in a combat zone, you can not imagine the atmosphere.

Let’s not forget who the real bad guys are. They are the former members of the ruling regime who are setting up bombs in neighborhoods where they have, to date, killed many more innocent Iraqis than anybody else. Remember, they just want us want us to leave. Their real goal is to subjugate the population again. The people they really want to terrify are the other Iraqis.

As far as the point that has been raised about the immorality of war:

Human beings have a capacity for both good and evil. Of course, we hope that as generations pass, we cultivate more and more of our natural inclination for being good. I believe the world is a much better place now than it was a hundred or five hundred years ago. But the human race has a long way to go before every soul on this planet is pure and free of the ugly human emotions like anger, envy, lust or prejudice. Until we arrive at that utopia, which I believe would be called “heaven,” war and violence will be a fact of life. Believe it or not, you are not the first person to hope for a more peaceful world. That’s been mankind’s goal for as long as history. 

What’s genuinely immoral is to sit in a house, protected by police officers, who carry guns to protect you from violent men…in a country where you are protected by soldiers who carry guns to keep you safe—and act like you are more morally evolved than they are. They are serving their fellow men—and many will be injured and killed doing just that—making a sacrifice for people they will never meet. They do this because they believe that serving others gives their lives meaning. That, my friend, is pure unconditional love, and there is nothing more highly evolved morally than that.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

In Mufti said:


> With regard to the subject of the thread:
> 
> If these Marines did not act the way they were supposed to and violated their standing orders and the law, they will be charged and prosecuted under the UCMJ. We've been through this before. These things happen in war. Lots of bad things happen in war, in fact, mostly it is bad things that happen in war. If they gunned these people down in cold blood, they should be punished to the full extent. They are a disgrace to all of the men and women who do their jobs properly every day. They would be a disgrace to every person who has worn the Marine uniform.


What, like the 2 days jail time served for the murder of aproximately 500 civillians at My Lai?

Read that again. Two days. 48 hours. Children machine gunned in a ditch. 500 dead.

Please understand if we are slightly skeptical of US military justice.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

www.wsws.org/public_html/iwb7-28/canada.htm


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## In Mufti (Jan 28, 2005)

gmac said:


> What, like the 2 days jail time served for the murder of aproximately 500 civillians at My Lai?
> 
> Read that again. Two days. 48 hours. Children machine gunned in a ditch. 500 dead.
> 
> Please understand if we are slightly skeptical of US military justice.


The MILITARY COURT sentenced Calley to life in prison. He was released pending appeal and kept under house arrest on the base. His conviction was eventually overturned by the CIVILIAN federal court judges. If his court marshal had not been over-turned by the civilian judges, he would still be in prison because that's where the military officers who sat on his panel (that's military for jury) sent him.

There's your history lesson for today. The take away: The military sent Calley away for life. The civilians released him.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

For my 5th birthday I received 8 lead soldiers in the bearskin hats, red tunics and white cross straps of the danish guards. They all stood a uniform 54MM and ramrod straight. later I played with my .79 cent bag of green army guys in the mud, watched old black and white war movies and started reading military history. I had a terrible nightmare after hearing about Guerilla warfare in some country called Vietnam, thinking they trained Gorillas to attack troops in the jungle.Ilater rebelled against family tradition and enlisted in the Coast Guard instead of the Navy. I had some airtight plan to avoid any ethical or political entanglements and figured I would get stationed in Santa Barbara, finance a Jaguar XKE and look dashing at fish restaurants in my crackerjack uniform. It didn't quite work out that way, I actually did see combat and encountered people who thought ANY uniform was a variation on the SS. I flipped a MLB on the Oregon Coast 3 times, came up with a fractured skull, finished my SAR before being evaced in a helicopter that made a real bad landing when the gear wouldn't descend. I spent 2 years in rehab and light duty in San Francisco before a medical review board said I couldn't reenlist and sneaking onto the MLB crews wasn't what light duty meant . At the VA for followup treatment I used to hear guys talking and screaming in their sleep- often to each other. One day walking with a former grunt a big green dragonfly flew straight into us. It's head was eaten away by still clinging ants. I flung it aside and it continued it's grisly death flight. My friend began crying and throwing up and babbling about his slick being overrun and playing dead. I have yet to read of any war without heros and villains on both sides. For every Calley there is a Shindler. Perhaps South Africa got it right with the policy of reconcilliation and pardons fro the simple truth. My lead soldiers still stand straight. But now I'm told they're toxic cast in lead and dangerous in their own right.


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