# How are Johnston & Murphy Regarded?



## TheShaun (Jun 3, 2010)

Looking for some cap toes and would love to get a pair of Park Avenues but that is not in the budget. 

How have you/do you find Johnston & Murphy shoes? Looking at the Melton. $160 is more in my current league.

Or any other brands I could be looking at?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I don't hold them in much regard. I haven't seen in any in over 10 years I would consider buying. I'm not wild about AE either, but it's a much better shoe. I believe that AE has something call the shoe bank that sells good quality seconds at deep discounts that might fit you budget.

And while I don't wish to attempt to convince you to spend more than you can, good shoes are hard to find cheap, and good ones should last you 5 to 10 years with proper care and rotation.


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Being on the lower end of the economic spectrum on here (only starting out in the "real world"), I find that the J&M Meltons do the job. They're comfortable to me, and they really haven't been creasing all that much-- with a good polishing from time to time and the shoe trees in them after each wear. If that's your budget, instead of the AE/Alden's range, I recommend them, though I wish they were made in the States.


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## TheShaun (Jun 3, 2010)

Put it this way, JM or Aldo, Nunn Bush, Kenneth Cole, Etc....


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Crap. All utter crap. Do not buy those shoes, do not pass go, do not collect $200...

Seriously. For $160, shop long enough and carefully enough and you can get brand-new AE seconds with indistinguishable flaws. A way better deal than these brands. Fair warning, you are not going to find any kind of consensus here with this kind of a question, but trust me: JM, Nunn Bush, Kenneth Cole and the like are garbage. Buy quality that can be re-crafted and you'll be wearing these shoes, assuming proper care, when your yet-unborn children are graduating from high school.


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## statboy (Sep 1, 2010)

TheShaun said:


> Put it this way, JM or Aldo, Nunn Bush, Kenneth Cole, Etc....


JM. Do you have a Nordstrom Rack type place around you? And I think Cole Haan would be better in that price range than JM.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Consider hunting on eBay for a *lightly** used pair of AEs or JM Aristocrafts. If you're patient, you can get a good quality shoe for $70 or less.

To illustrate:

*My effort to split the difference between the "Say no to used shoes" camp and the "What's the problem?" camp.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

My sense is that the Aristocrafts and Crown Aristocrafts aren't too bad but not necessarily as good value for money as A-Es. Most of their cheaper stuff is sourced from various importers and not very good, in my experience. In their glory days, J&M are reputed to have produced some shoes that were decisively better than anything Alden or A-E has ever put out.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

JLibourel said:


> My sense is that the Aristocrafts and Crown Aristocrafts aren't too bad but not necessarily as good value for money as A-Es.


I have a pair of Aristocrafts (eBayed, near-new) and would say this seems exactly right.


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## TheDlABlO (Feb 5, 2010)

statboy said:


> JM. Do you have a Nordstrom Rack type place around you? And I think Cole Haan would be better in that price range than JM.


At nordy rack, AEs are in his range. Almost all AEs at rack are under $150. Problem is, most are oogly styles. See if you can get lucky and snag an older but attractive model. I bought a pair of weybridges (firsts) there for $150.

Also, while J&M aren't really approved by the shoe construction snobs, not everyone can afford to drop a fortune on shoes. As a result, if it fits, looks good, and is fairly priced (i.e., good discount, as I would probably never spend $160 on J&M shoes when I can find a better pair of AEs for the same price) I say go for it - just make sure you are getting good value for your money.

Lastly, I would check to see if the shoe is corrected grain leather. IF it is, RUN, it'll look like crap really fast


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## dcjacobson (Jun 25, 2007)

> and is fairly priced (i.e., good discount


The Aristocrafts are on sale; I just got a sale catalog in the mail yesterday. Still above your desired price point, but my experience has often been that the better shoe will be cheaper in the long run. These shoes can last 20 years if you take care of them.

Good luck,
Don


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## dcjacobson (Jun 25, 2007)

> but trust me: JM, Nunn Bush, Kenneth Cole and the like are garbage.


I wouldn't quite agree with that. I just received two pairs of J&M bucks, and they are every bit the equal of more expensive models I've looked at. As with everything else in life, "it depends."

Don


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## DaveTrader (Jun 11, 2011)

TheDlABlO said:


> At nordy rack, AEs are in his range. Almost all AEs at rack are under $150.


Hmmm... If you go to the Nordstrom Rack website, the prices on AE are pretty much the same as if you bought them from AE's site.


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## ada8356 (Dec 14, 2007)

I have five pair of JMs. Three are what I would call a semi-casual shoe and cannot be 're-crafted'. These are probably 3-5 years each.


Two pair are nice cap toe shoes probably similar to what you are considering (I have no idea what they are called). These are about 6 years old and may need some heel work in the next year or two.

All five pair have been great so far. The cap toes are very nice and comfortable and take a shine very well. 

I always store with shoe trees and never wear a pair on sequential days. Maybe that's why I've had such luck with them.

Anyway, moral of the story: if you can't afford AE or Alden right now, go ahead and buy some JMs and they will hold you over for a good few years.


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## Bookman (May 19, 2010)

of course you are not likely to hear endorsements on this site for shoes under $300 retail...

That said, J&M is on par with Florsheim and Cole Haan.....all three have a small bit of higher end shoes that are Goodyear Welted with full grain calf leather and are perfectly passable in 99.9% of all business environments. In my experience J&M and Cole Haan fit a bit narrower than Florsheim; but, they are comparable from a quality perspective. The Melton is a perfectly serviceable shoe which, if treated properly, should last well.


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## statboy (Sep 1, 2010)

DaveTrader said:


> Hmmm... If you go to the Nordstrom Rack website, the prices on AE are pretty much the same as if you bought them from AE's site.


I didn't even know Nordstrom Rack had a website. Definitely not like in-store prices. AEs show up in the $150 range there often, but not Park Avenues or Macneils or anything like that. I do regularly see Waldens in there for under $100.


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

Bookman said:


> of course you are not likely to hear endorsements on this site for shoes under $300 retail...
> 
> That said, J&M is on par with Florsheim and Cole Haan.....all three have a small bit of higher end shoes that are Goodyear Welted with full grain calf leather and are perfectly passable in 99.9% of all business environments. In my experience J&M and Cole Haan fit a bit narrower than Florsheim; but, they are comparable from a quality perspective. The Melton is a perfectly serviceable shoe which, if treated properly, should last well.


It would have been nice if you had put a warning on this post: "Caution, common sense ahead".


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

TheShaun said:


> Looking for some cap toes and would love to get a pair of Park Avenues but that is not in the budget.
> 
> How have you/do you find Johnston & Murphy shoes? Looking at the Melton. $160 is more in my current league.
> 
> Or any other brands I could be looking at?


There are three overarching factors when shopping for dress shoes: style, comfort, and durability. In that price tier, the best you can hope for is a shoe that will do well in one of the three. Your best bet would be the J&M Melton or the Florsheim Edgar. They aren't going to be great shoes, but they are decent. With proper care, they will hold up to occasional wear for quite some time. If you need daily-wear shoes, or you walk a lot, you will likely wear out shoes in this tier pretty quickly.

Other choices in this price range include Bostonian, Rockport, and Kenneth Cole. None of these has any noticeable redeeming qualities.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

32rollandrock said:


> Crap. All utter crap. Do not buy those shoes, do not pass go, do not collect $200...


This is a bit harsh. Admittedly, J&M's dress shoes, apart from their very top of the line models (which are refurbishable), are not great quality. I have a pair (on, actually) with which I am very displeased: despite being comfortable, the heel is made of a rubber core with leather strips affixed around the outside to give the appearance of a welted heel, and the leather strips have come loose as the rubber core has worn down. But the shoes are probably better than Kenneth Cole, and they certainly _look _better than Kenneth Cole: a cheap shoe in a classic design may come apart too quickly, but a cheap shoe in a stupid design will always look stupid. Also, I'd say that J&M's aren't nearly as poor an investment for casual shoes: bucks, casual saddles, etc. These will be less structured regardless of who you buy from, so the room for truly great quality variations is lesser.

If you have a lot of time, sure, you can wait and find a pair of AE seconds or lightly used for about your budget. But if you don't have that kind of time, the Melton can be made to fit your purpose. By keeping them treed, polishing them, and having them re-soled, a cheap pair of shoes can be kept in service far beyond its ordinary useful life.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

As others have indicated, all but their top-end models are now intended as disposable consumer goods. That doesn't mean they're worthless. You have to ask yourself if you want disposable shoes. 

For certain categories, for me the answer is yes. For instance, just last weekend I bought some J&M bucks in their off-white shade. I figure they're going to look bad in a couple of years anyway (too hard to keep near-white suede pristine), so it's OK to plan to junk them. OTOH, I am contemplating going MTM or bespoke for my next pair of black dress shoes. Everybody has to make their own resource allocation decisions.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Titus_A said:


> If you have a lot of time, sure, you can wait and find a pair of AE seconds or lightly used for about your budget. But if you don't have that kind of time, the Melton can be made to fit your purpose. By keeping them treed, polishing them, and having them re-soled, a cheap pair of shoes can be kept in service far beyond its ordinary useful life.


 Not sure what your definition of "a lot of time" is....but if he were to email the AE Shoe Bank with his size, within a day, he would receive back a list of 40 or 50 pair of AE "seconds" which are all under $200 dollars. Seems like a no brainer to me.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

mrkleen said:


> Not sure what your definition of "a lot of time" is....but if he were to email the AE Shoe Bank with his size, within a day, he would receive back a list of 40 or 50 pair of AE "seconds" which are all under $200 dollars. Seems like a no brainer to me.


Well yeah, they provide great service in that regard at the right price point. But there's no guaranty that they have what he needs in his size. Shoebank inventory is uneven and not replenished the same way as regular stock, so the only thing you can do if you don't strike gold the first time is to wait and try again. That takes time. If he has time, it's a no-brainer. If not, he considers other options.


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## Avers (Feb 28, 2006)

CuffDaddy said:


> As others have indicated, all but their top-end models are now intended as disposable consumer goods. That doesn't mean they're worthless. You have to ask yourself if you want disposable shoes.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point - they will not last. I owned some J&M made in Italy shoes some years back and they fell apart within 1st year of ownership.

I would stay away from J&M and keep checking eBay - with some patience you can locate new Allen Edmonds shoes in $100 to $150 range.


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## mommatook1 (Apr 17, 2008)

I have two pairs of J&M that are fine. Got them at one of those "premium" outlet strip malls for $80 a pair. Think they were about half off.

They were purely a functional purchase; they have a completely plain toe, which allows me to wear them with uniforms (much better than the standard issue crap). You'd be amazed at how difficult it is to find a plain toe sometimes. They also have rubber soles, which makes them great for walking, and good for inclement weather. Because they weren't expensive, I don't worry about beating them up. There are actually pics of them on the WAYWT thread from earlier this week. I don't remember the model name, but it doesn't really matter since they were discontinued.

That said, they are not what I would consider a great dress shoe. They've creased heavily despite always using shoe trees, the interior lining is starting to show wear in spots, and the footbed has compressed and conformed to my foot so much that it feels like they are a little too loose now. And worst of all is the "made in china" stamp on the inside of the tongue.

For comparison, my similar style Aldens look better, are far better construction, and will last a lot longer. That said, my J&M's are comfortable, look good enough, and I get a hell of a lot of use out of them.

Bottom line, good "utility" dress shoes, not sure I would pay $160 though.


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## ada8356 (Dec 14, 2007)

Avers said:


> Exactly my point - they will not last. I owned some J&M made in Italy shoes some years back and they fell apart within 1st year of ownership.
> 
> I would stay away from J&M and keep checking eBay - with some patience you can locate new Allen Edmonds shoes in $100 to $150 range.


but like I said, I've had two pair of the J&M cap toe shoes for about 6 years and both pair are still in great shape. One pair gets worn 2-3 times per week.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

Paying $160 for shoes that will look unattractive soon, that are cheaply built or that you will wish you hadn't purchased two years from now seems like a lot of money.
If you need them right away and don't mind wearing used shoes, go to a local thrift or go to eBay to find a decent pair of used shoes that you can wear for your purposes.
If you don't need them right away, or don't want to buy used shoes, wait a few months and you'll come across a good, new pair of high quality shoes on sale for that price. Just keep looking.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

The AE Shoebank sale beginning tomorrow has several specials or closeouts that at less than $160, IMO the best of which for dress are the following Bals (which I assume is the reason the OP is looking at captoes) Parliament $149 black, $129 brown; Augusta walnut $129; Dryden $149. For those who may wear a Blucher/derby for dress the Sutter is $149. They will send you an E mail with all available in your size. I called today and you can get the sale price now. I talked to Nate and he was not rushed so it may be best to call before they close rather than wait until tomorrow. (262)284-7158.

Of course, all of the above are better shoes than the Melton and, if the OP is not insistent on a cap toe, he will be pleased with any of these AEs.


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## el caballero (Jan 23, 2011)

Bookman said:


> of course you are not likely to hear endorsements on this site for shoes under $300 retail...
> 
> That said, J&M is on par with Florsheim and Cole Haan.....all three have a small bit of higher end shoes that are Goodyear Welted with full grain calf leather and are perfectly passable in 99.9% of all business environments. In my experience J&M and Cole Haan fit a bit narrower than Florsheim; but, they are comparable from a quality perspective. The Melton is a perfectly serviceable shoe which, if treated properly, should last well.


Agreed. Whenever I see a J&M shoe I like, I just check out Florsheim for a similar model as it is usually of comparable quality and at a much better price.


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## TheShaun (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. I am certainly in no rush to get these shoes and the consensus is to hold out for something better. I don't have an AE retailer near me to try on shoes. How do they fit compared to what you measure on a brannock device?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

TheShaun said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I am certainly in no rush to get these shoes and the consensus is to hold out for something better. I don't have an AE retailer near me to try on shoes. How do they fit compared to what you measure on a brannock device?


AE makes shoes on several different shaped lasts. Some men find they can wear all of them while others can only wear some. Sometimes a man, I am one,
who goes up a size on a narrow model. I recommend calling the AE shoebank and discussing your fit with them as they are true professionals, the opposite of the amateurs one often finds at say a JAB. If you buy from them they will accept returns if you have tried them on and walked across the carpet so as not to scuff the sole.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm one of those people who have problems with the #5 last...

If there's a Nordstrom Rack near you, go try on the AE models you find and note how they fit and the last number (the last digit on the long number printed inside the shoe). Even if you only find one, you'll learn enough to narrow down your search. Let's say you find a #8 last and decide that it's too wide at a certain part of the foot, but otherwise the length is ok. Armed with that knowledge, you can describe to the folks at the ShoeBank how the #8 fit, and they'll be able to suggest something else.

Once you know what AE lasts work for you, shopping for discount AE shoes is easy. I like the #1 and #8 last, so I've built Ebay searches that notify me via RSS anytime anything on those lasts becomes available, which is often. That's easy to do with the style/last lists that one can find in some threads on this Forum (https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?64989-Allen-Edmonds-Styles-vs.-Lasts). Or, when I call the ShoeBank, now I just ask, "what do you have in my size on the #8?" They then send me a spreadsheet with all the #8 offerings in my size.

This is how people like me, who can't afford AE shoes, can afford AE shoes.


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

I love the J&M Crown Aristocraft because of the fit of the last and because J&M has maintained the quality of this shoe. Unfortunately, everything else they make has become disposable. 

I was once a loyal J&M customer, but no more. I'd rather patronize AE or Alden.


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## nogm1030 (Jun 18, 2009)

About 9 years ago I bought 2 pairs of shoes to wear during an arbitration. One was a pair of J&Ms. The other was a pair AEs. The J&Ms lasted 6 months. I'm still wearing the AEs. I realize that AEs cost more, but it's worth it for the quality.


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## mommatook1 (Apr 17, 2008)

arkirshner said:


> The AE Shoebank sale beginning tomorrow has several specials or closeouts that at less than $160, IMO the best of which for dress are the following Bals (which I assume is the reason the OP is looking at captoes) Parliament $149 black, $129 brown; Augusta walnut $129; Dryden $149. For those who may wear a Blucher/derby for dress the Sutter is $149. They will send you an E mail with all available in your size. I called today and you can get the sale price now. I talked to Nate and he was not rushed so it may be best to call before they close rather than wait until tomorrow. (262)284-7158.
> 
> Of course, all of the above are better shoes than the Melton and, if the OP is not insistent on a cap toe, he will be pleased with any of these AEs.


Thanks for that, just ordered some of the Sutters to replace my J&Ms. 278 for two pair; Nathan was quite helpful.

OP - there you go.


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## ESilver (Jul 1, 2005)

J&M gets such a bum rap. 

I have 5 pairs: 2 “Meltons;” 1 “Aldrich II” (Aristocraft); and two made-in-Italy Alfords: 1 leather, 1 suede.
The oldest (black Melton) is 6 years old and indistinguishable, in appearance, from it’s 6-month ould burgundy counterpart. The others are all less than 1 year old and still look near-new. 

Granted, I currently have 14 pairs of shoes in rotation, and have not worn the black Meltons much over the years, but they have held up remarkably well -- better, in fact, than my also 6 year-old Allen Edmonds “Coltons” which I purchased at the same time and have worn even less frequently. 

This I attribute to the Melton’s long cap toe; the shoe does not noticeably crease (whereas the AE Colton does); it looks nicer/sleeker (in my opinion); and takes a brilliant shine. Oddly enough, the Meltons are also the only shoes that a stranger has complimented me on, and they are nowhere near as sexy as, say, my Bruno Maglis. 

AE is very good but every week I nonetheless see examples at Nordstrom Rack that I would never put my feet in, and which are not discernibly different from the lesser brands around them (which is why, undoubtedly, they end up at Nordstom Rack). If you stick with J&M Meltons and the Aristocraft line you won’t go wrong.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Not really, JM gets the rap it deserves. Full disclosure, I used to wear both JM Aristocraft as well as AEs, Aldens and various UK makers, but when metal detectors were installed in my city's public buildings I went to all AEs as at the time they were they only one without steel shanks. Years ago JM decided to concentrate on the middle range market and virtually gave up trying to compete with AE and Alden over a broad range of shoes. Today only the Crown Aristocrafts are made in the US, the Aristocrafts are made in India and the Melton in Mexico. 

Comparing your Melton, a cap toe, with the AE Colton, a blucher and saying the Melton wins because it is sleeker is comparing apples and oranges. Of course the cap toe is sleeker, the Colton was not designed to be sleek. Likewise ,saying the Melton wins because it takes such a "brilliant" shine is to make a virtue out of the fact that the Melton carries the shine because, unlike the Colton, the Melton is made from grain corrected leather. (use search engine to find complete explanation of grain corrected leather). Most of us find grain corrected leather to be inferior and the "brilliant " shine to be a bit over the top. A proper comparison of the Melton to an AE shoe would be with AE s captoe, the Park Ave a shoe made from aniline dyed calf.

Even within JMs offerings the Hyde Park ,(Aristocraft) ,and Georgetown , (Crown Aristocraft), neither of which will carry a "brilliant" shine, are far superior to the Melton. Simply by feeling them one can see that the Meltons leather is far less supple.

If you wish to champion JMs Crown Aristocraft and Aristocraft lines by all means do so. I still wear my shoes from these lines, they are fine shoes. Still, the Melton is only a decent mid range, grain corrected, not supple leather shoe and not in their class.

As for the discontinued AEs at Nordstroms, they are discontinued because the style did not sell, not because of any shortcomings of materials or construction. In short what are perceived as ugly shoes, by even the best maker will not sell and will be discounted to move them out the door onto the feet of those find the price attractive.


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

I bought two pairs of J+M Meltons back in the late 90s at the PX for a low price and wore them every work day (rotated between the two) for two or three years back when I was a starting lawyer. I had to have both of them resoled, but the uppers were fine. They were also very comfortable, more comfortable than my AEs now, since they had some kind of padded insole built in (the "Optima" insole system or whatever they called it). Anyway, I am not sure if they are the same shoes now as they were 10+ years ago (I am told they are not, but don't know), but my experience with them back then was very positive. I bought the J+Ms at the time rather than the slightly more expensive (at the time at the PX) AE Park Avenue because I thought the J+M looked better - longer cap and just better proportioned.


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## marg (Jan 13, 2011)

A little late for the sale, but Nordstrom's semi-annual sale had NEW AE Park Avenues for under 200. I wished I hadn't bought mine a few months ago, but then remembered that I thought them a good value at retail less the shoe buyback credit. Classic captoes or other cuts will never go out of style.

Don't listen to the "general consensus" on the forums where people routinely spend tons of money on clothing. I used to wear J+M until I bought my first AEs. Now I only wear AEs and Aldens (not including Sperrys or sneakers). I will never buy JMs again, but I loved them when I had them. Unless you get used to better shoes, JMs will make you happy.


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## ESilver (Jul 1, 2005)

What matters is which looks and wears better. Most people, outside of this forum, don't know what a blucher or cap toe is and base their judgements on what looks/feels best to them, and not technicals. In my experience, the JM Meltons beat the AE Coltons in terms of appearance and *outward* durability (and I really do like my Coltons). AE wins, without question, in comfort; I could jog in those shoes.

In terms of long-term durability I assume AE excels but I will never know for sure since I won't wear any shoe long enough to put it to the test.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

ESilver said:


> In terms of long-term durability I assume AE excels but I will never know for sure since I won't wear any shoe long enough to put it to the test.


Why not ? (Unless you are a stunt car driver or an octogenarian) A good pair of shoes can last decades.


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## g.michael (Jul 9, 2010)

My first cap-toe--The Melton. $155 new. US Made (1999), comfy Optima padding system, closed channel stitching (or whatever you call it--look near the toe in the pic) on the top of the welt, slightly spaded sole, and a last shape that works for my toes and beats out its Park Avenue twin in my closet. Oh that corrected grain shine!









My next wingtip (when it goes on sale):









The Melton served me well when I frequently travelled to NYC in a previous job to meet Wall Street investors. The sad state of footwear today is that even in that circle people wore some pretty disgusting shoes and I assume the same holds true today. In many cases, these Melton's were some of the nicer shoes in the room. But that was many years ago, and they served me well. I imagine the Melton would still do the same today, even if it's made in Mexico. I have upgraded to more top of the line footwear but the Melton cap-toe is not a bad shoe by any means.


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## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

marg said:


> A little late for the sale, but Nordstrom's semi-annual sale had NEW AE Park Avenues for under 200. I wished I hadn't bought mine a few months ago, but then remembered that I thought them a good value at retail less the shoe buyback credit. Classic captoes or other cuts will never go out of style.
> 
> Don't listen to the "general consensus" on the forums where people routinely spend tons of money on clothing. I used to wear J+M until I bought my first AEs. Now I only wear AEs and Aldens (not including Sperrys or sneakers). I will never buy JMs again, but I loved them when I had them. Unless you get used to better shoes, JMs will make you happy.


any chance that a call to Nordies would result in success with a 9D black pair?


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## Thurnau (Apr 14, 2010)

How are Johnston & murphy's custom select made in the USA shoes?


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