# suit jacket sleeves with working buttonholes - do you ever leave the last button unbuttoned?



## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

For suit jacket sleeves with working buttonholes - do you ever leave the last button unbuttoned?

Seems like this could be a fashionable look and a nice way to show off your suit jacket to others "in the know".


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## satorstyle (Jan 2, 2007)

It's normally considered to be in bad taste, although once in a while I do it with odd jackets that have a little fancier color and pattern.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

All my buttons function but I never show it. There's more to abespoke suit than working buttonholes. Open buttons on the cuff just seem a bit vulgar to me.

I remember when I was into the mod scene at Uni someone said to me "isn't your suit bespoke? I said yes. He said well don't your buttons work? I said yes but I don't choose to show it off, as I undid them with my left hand. I then walked away.

Of course my suit was made by Gieves and Hawkes and his was made by some Mr Ned equivelant........

Ooooooh SNAP!......


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## Nerev (Apr 25, 2009)

David Reeves said:


> Open buttons on the cuff just seem a bit vulgar to me.


^^^ I have a few, and while it is good to know that they work, I think it would pretty vulgar indeed to unbutton one.


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

*Why the need to impress 'others' by 'showing off?'*

The fit and quality of the garment should not be so unsatisfactory that gauche unfastening is required for an ego boost.


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Interesting opinions....


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Nerev said:


> ^^^ I have a few, and while it is good to know that they work, I think it would pretty vulgar indeed to unbutton one.


Someone may need to advise the CEO of Kiton that he's being vulgar in this picture:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...mage_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBMQ9QEwAw


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

For stuffy business keep them buttoned; but for social occasions, sure, leave one unbuttoned if you wish. It will just add a little flair. A small group of hard core fashion enthusiasts won't approve, but you aren't likely to run in to any of them anyway. 

Heck, if you are never going to unbutton the things you might as well have fake buttonholes or no buttons at all for that matter.

Cruiser


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> For stuffy business keep them buttoned; but for social occasions, sure, leave one unbuttoned if you wish. It will just add a little flair. A small group of hard core fashion enthusiasts won't approve, but you aren't likely to run in to any of them anyway.
> 
> Heck, if you are never going to unbutton the things you might as well have fake buttonholes or no buttons at all for that matter.
> 
> Cruiser


good point


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

David Reeves said:


> Open buttons on the cuff just seem *a bit vulgar* to me.





Nerev said:


> I think it would* pretty vulgar* indeed to unbutton one.


Vulgar is a very potent adjective. Use it sparingly. You blow your load when you use it to describe an unbuttoned suit cuff. You'll have nothing left to describe true vulgarity, like an unbuttoned fly, an undone mind or the war in Iraq.

To Satorial 1, the original poster: go ahead, wear it unbuttoned. Few will notice. No one will think it's vulgar.
​


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Who is more interesting, the man with a secret or the man who shouts from the streetcorner?


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

For interviews - buttoned.

For bars and clubs - unbuttoned.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Well I would think it was vulgar for one.

About the Kiton CEO? Vulgar.



Peak and Pine said:


> Vulgar is a very potent adjective. Use it sparingly. You blow your load when you use it to describe an unbuttoned suit cuff. You'll have nothing left to describe true vulgarity, like an unbuttoned fly, an undone mind or the war in Iraq.
> 
> To Satorial 1, the original poster: go ahead, wear it unbuttoned. Few will notice. No one will think it's vulgar.
> ​


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## Sufferable Fob (Aug 26, 2009)

I have always known "vulgar" to mean "common" or "unrefined".

So I would say it works to describe this - and using it to describe war would be a little goofy unless the context was absolutely perfect.




Personally, though, I think it just looks busy and distracted. Fine for "leisure", as stated. For instance, you had to roll your sleeves up, but were too distracted to finish buttoning them again kind of look.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

sartorial_1 said:


> For suit jacket sleeves with working buttonholes - do you ever leave the last button unbuttoned?
> 
> Seems like this could be a fashionable look and a nice way to show off your suit jacket to others "in the know".


NO. Never. Also, I think vulgar is a good adjective for such a contrived look.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

I leave one unbuttoned frequently. To me it's a harmless affectation. No one ever notices it.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

My guess is that the above suit is neither OTR nor MTM.

I would also hazard a guess that the thought of leaving a cuff button open would never even enter the mind of the wearer. (If you don't know who it is, ask someone who does.)

Style moves quietly, with elegance and grace.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

So many of you continue to use the word _vulgar_ within the context of this thread that you've sent me to dictionary.com to reexamine a word that I thought archaic and overwrought and meant, essentially, _obscene._

Well it does, but that's number two. Number one is what Fob, and perhaps the rest of you, mean, i.e., unrefined, coarse, low, etc.

So now I'm thinking even less of you who are using it. Just who are you to call another epithets simply because a sartorial desire is not in line with yours?

Man, this thread's too catty for me.​


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> (If you don't know who it is, ask someone who does.)
> 
> *Style moves quietly, with elegance and grace*.


Neither of which you've displayed by using the line that proceeded it. G'night. I'm shutting the door on this cat house.​


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## Dashiell.Valentine (Dec 18, 2008)

*A short essay on the sleeve button*

I really don't see much difference between leaving the bottom button undone on a suit jacket (a MUST), leaving the bottom button undone on a vest (another MUST), and leaving the bottom button undone on a sleeve (which must NEVER be done).

I think that in keeping with symmetry, it makes logical sense to leave it undone. And far from a display of vulgarity, I feel that it sends an opposite message: it is a signal that the wearer takes care in selecting his clothing. You have to admit it is far less vulgar than OTR sleeves reaching down to the wearer's first knuckles.

I will admit that when I ordered my first MTM suit, I had five buttons put on the cuff so that one can remain unbuttoned, while four remain showing. A bit gauche, perhaps, but I am young and I love suits. I eschew the fashion industry mostly (although I loved the Tom Ford suits in Quantum of Solace), but yet I also know that if I dress like an old man, I do so at my own risk. I constantly think about how suits are evolving (stylistically and economically) and I believe that the unbuttoned sleeve button is here to stay for the next 20 years at least.

Why? Because firms such as MyTailor (made in India) and Pernac Paris (made it Italy and France) are changing everything. For the price of a moderate quality OTR suit, one can now custom order a fully canvassed, well fitting, decent fabric suit with all the options. How is this possible? Because computer programs can create the pattern and laser cutters cut the fabric, etc.

Now these suits will never match the fit or quality of a bespoke garment. But they are far superior to comparable OTR, especially since we all agree here that fit is first. The bespoke tailor will remain an option for those who can afford them. But for those who cannot, the MTM programs further allow them to select options to express individuality. Many of them are tacky such as contrast stitching on buttonholes, but many are elegant such as side tabs, ticket pockets, dual vents, beautiful linings, functional sleeves, etc. Now I don't have to look like every other guy who wears a Brooks Brothers Regent.

The unbuttoned sleeve used to be a show of wealth. Now it is not. Now it is a show of attention to one's clothing. In the coming years I think that we will see more and more of these unbuttoned sleeves, and more and more of these affordable MTM firms, until OTR hardly exists and everyone is wearing MTM. Then we can have this conversation again and decide whether we should all button them up, but until then I say, leave it unbuttoned and fight the good fight.

:devil:


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

No - entirely vulgar thing to do.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

sartorial_1 said:


> For suit jacket sleeves with working buttonholes - do you ever leave the last button unbuttoned?
> 
> Seems like this could be a fashionable look and a nice way to show off your suit jacket to others "in the know".


Showing off is another sign of vulgarity - however some might deride that word here.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Peak and Pine said:


> So many of you continue to use the word _vulgar_ within the context of this thread that you've sent me to dictionary.com to reexamine a word that I thought archaic and overwrought and meant, essentially, _obscene._
> 
> Well it does, but that's number two. Number one is what Fob, and perhaps the rest of you, mean, i.e., unrefined, coarse, low, etc.
> 
> ...


From Websters: Vulgar -- 3. lacking culture, taste etc.; crude, boorish.

Also an apt description for someone who does not fully understand the meaning of the word and gets indignant because others disagree with him. :teacha:


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

sartorial_1 said:


> Someone may need to advise the CEO of Kiton that he's being vulgar in this picture:
> https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...mage_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBMQ9QEwAw


Well, that's fine but I don't assume because he's the CEO of some line of pricey goods whatever he does is de facto correct.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

gng8 said:


> I leave one unbuttoned frequently. To me it's a harmless affectation. No one ever notices it.


Perhaps that's the way I'd characterize it. Vulgar seems harsh, affected is probably a more accurate characterization. It's certainly harmless.

However, note that the definition of affectation is something inauthentic or unnatural. I'm not sure why someone would deliberately choose this.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

David Niven wasn't considered to be "vulgar" with his attire.










Cruiser


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Vulgar? No, I wouldn't say so. A little silly? Sure.


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> My guess is that the above suit is neither OTR nor MTM.
> 
> I would also hazard a guess that the thought of leaving a cuff button open would never even enter the mind of the wearer. (If you don't know who it is, ask someone who does.)
> 
> Style moves quietly, with elegance and grace.


That picture is from 1945 - times change


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## Dr. NS (Aug 25, 2009)

IF the day comes when I feel like unbuttoning it... I'm sure I'm going to unbutton all of them. :icon_smile_wink:


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## neskerdoo (Jun 23, 2009)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> My guess is that the above suit is neither OTR nor MTM.
> 
> I would also hazard a guess that the thought of leaving a cuff button open would never even enter the mind of the wearer. (If you don't know who it is, ask someone who does.)
> 
> Style moves quietly, with elegance and grace.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*It takes . . .*

. . . a conscious decision to "carelessly" leave one or two sleeve buttons undone. That makes it "studied" to a degree. So, in demonstrating the fact that one actually can unbutton sleeve buttons, one risks either being considered a "vulgar" (to use the word bandied above in this thread) show-off or terminally sloppy

That said, I have done it once with a DJ. The only result was another dinner guest grimly telling me, "Button up your sleeve!" Needless to say, I have not done so again.

I suppose one could contort a reason to unbutton one's sleeve in order to turn up the cuffs when eating something with one's fingers, like asparagus. Yes, that once was considered mannerly. Perhaps we should rename them "trenchers' cuffs":icon_smile_big:


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

*vulgar*



Cruiser said:


> David Niven wasn't considered to be "vulgar" with his attire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is actually a good example. If you are some place where your leg will be up over a chair's arm or your hand between your legs, feel free to undo a few cuff buttons.
Of course this looks like a staged casual photo. For normal public consumption, button up.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Oh, come on!*

Please, please tell us who it is!



Checkerboard 13 said:


> My guess is that the above suit is neither OTR nor MTM.
> 
> I would also hazard a guess that the thought of leaving a cuff button open would never even enter the mind of the wearer. (If you don't know who it is, ask someone who does.)
> 
> Style moves quietly, with elegance and grace.


Nevertheless, Archy does keep buttoned, while sitting, _both_ the middle and top buttons on that three-button-non-_fakery-roll-two_ coat.


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## jst (Oct 22, 2008)

Dashiell.Valentine said:


> I really don't see much difference between leaving the bottom button undone on a suit jacket (a MUST), leaving the bottom button undone on a vest (another MUST), and leaving the bottom button undone on a sleeve (which must NEVER be done).
> 
> I think that in keeping with symmetry, it makes logical sense to leave it undone. And far from a display of vulgarity, I feel that it sends an opposite message: it is a signal that the wearer takes care in selecting his clothing. You have to admit it is far less vulgar than OTR sleeves reaching down to the wearer's first knuckles.
> 
> ...


Very interesting opinion. I even don't know if I do have working buttonholes or not on my suits or jackets. I have to find.

If so, I would never have the last button unbuttoned for formal or business affair. But for social or maybe better casual wear I would give it a try. Not to display my vulgarity, just for fun.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Of course there are plenty of off the rack suits with functioning buttonholes these days.

I am just waiting for someone to say something about handstitched button holes......



Dashiell.Valentine said:


> I really don't see much difference between leaving the bottom button undone on a suit jacket (a MUST), leaving the bottom button undone on a vest (another MUST), and leaving the bottom button undone on a sleeve (which must NEVER be done).
> 
> I think that in keeping with symmetry, it makes logical sense to leave it undone. And far from a display of vulgarity, I feel that it sends an opposite message: it is a signal that the wearer takes care in selecting his clothing. You have to admit it is far less vulgar than OTR sleeves reaching down to the wearer's first knuckles.
> 
> ...


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

chatsworth osborne jr. said:


> This is actually a good example. If you are some place where your leg will be up over a chair's arm or your hand between your legs, feel free to undo a few cuff buttons.
> Of course this looks like a staged casual photo. For normal public consumption, button up.


Yes, unlike the Carey Grant photo that was posted to support the opposite viewpoint. Obviously the photographer just happened by while Grant was sitting on a wall in that pose. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> Yes, unlike the Carey Grant photo that was posted to support the opposite viewpoint. Obviously the photographer just happened by while Grant was sitting on a wall in that pose. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


lol....


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> Yes, unlike the Carey Grant photo that was posted to support the opposite viewpoint. Obviously the photographer just happened by while Grant was sitting on a wall in that pose. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


Was it the sartorialist?


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

No problem - rules are made to be broken. I like it so I do it. And if another dinner guest was so ill-mannered as to tell me in public how _he _thought _I _should dress then I would enjoy giving it back to him in spades.

Relax - if it makes you feel good then do it.


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## Sean1982 (Sep 7, 2009)

I wouldn't, and don't unbutton my cuff buttons on my suits or coats.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Vulgar - mayhbe, but I leave the first (closet to the cuff) button unfastened on all my working button hole jackets. 

How else is anyone to know it's bespoke? 

But then I wear logos and monograms! :icon_smile:


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Andy said:


> Vulgar - mayhbe, but I leave the first (closet to the cuff) button unfastened on all my working button hole jackets.
> 
> How else is anyone to know it's bespoke?
> 
> But then I wear logos and monograms! :icon_smile:


I suppose you know through nuance of fit, and little things like noticing iregular stitching or hand stitched button holes.

Do you really like to show off that your wearing bespoke though?

I like monogrammes as well actually.


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## Nerev (Apr 25, 2009)

Andy said:


> Vulgar - mayhbe, but I leave the first (closet to the cuff) button unfastened on all my working button hole jackets.
> 
> How else is anyone to know it's bespoke?
> 
> But then I wear logos and monograms! :icon_smile:


We all love you Andy, but *burn the heretic!*


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## From Vancouver (May 24, 2009)

There are greater sartorial sins than leaving a sleeve button unbuttoned. Heck, the Italians seem to do it all the time, at least from my research of _The Sartorialist_, and they look good doing it. There is a little bit more to being Italian than leaving a couple of sleeve buttons undone of course. Wear your suit however which way you like. Make it yours and hopefully people will judge you correct for the occasion.

As to the opinion that it is affected, some believe that wearing a suit is a sign of affection, let alone leaving buttons undone.



David Reeves said:


> I am just waiting for someone to say something about handstitched button holes......


And finally, this one is for David. I have all the button holes on my sleeves hand stitched, and I keep all the buttons done up. A double whammy - all that hard work by my tailor and no flash.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Andy said:


> How else is anyone to know it's bespoke?


Why the need to broadcast to the world that one is wearing bespoke?

Besides, functioning button holes does not denote bespoke, as anyone willing to pay can have his tailor put in hand-sewn button holes on OTR jackets.


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Gentlemen,

Why leave one button undone?

Just cuff the thing as intended and be done.

If you don't need to do so, don't, but the point of appropriate clothing is to suit the occasion and events which arise therefrom.

Cuffing a sleeve is better than removing a jacket or suit coat for whatever reason.

One may imagine many situations where one would prefer to cuff the sleeve of a jacket rather than incur damage or harm from some circumstance.

what's the problem with that?

rudy


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

As I have learned from the members of these forums, proper etiquette would seem to dictate that one does not leave his jacket sleeves unbuttoned, just as one would not leave one's fly down in public.

That being said, there's also a difference between "not knowing the rules at all" and "knowing the rules-but choosing to break a select few." I choose to leave my last button undone in all but the most formal of situations, as I am young and I think it is a point of interest and conversation-most of my peers did not even know working sleeve buttons exist!

In my opinion, there are far worst fashion crimes that could be committed, and leaving a button casually undone is not really a big deal at all. After all, when you think about, the only reason we may shun the look is because we have been taught too-what other reason is there? So go for it if you choose-but if you prefer to follow the rules or be on the safe side, leaving your sleeves buttoned is never a risk in any situation.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

MTM_Master? said:


> As I have learned from the members of these forums, proper etiquette would seem to dictate that one does not leave his jacket sleeves unbuttoned, just as one would not leave one's fly down in public.


Really bad analogy! The fly is fastened to make sure the privates stay private; wherever one stands on the great "working cuffs" controversy, there's no comparison between that area and the wrist/sleeve end area.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

MTM_Master? said:


> As I have learned from the members of these forums, proper etiquette would seem to dictate that one does not leave his jacket sleeves unbuttoned, just as one would not leave one's fly down in public.


This analogy makes no sense. The fly is intended to be both open and closed. What is the purpose of having working buttonholes on the cuff if they too aren't intended to be opened and closed. The only reason for keeping the fly closed in public is to keep one's private parts private. There is no such prohibition on the sleeves of one's shirt.

I'm constantly amazed at how some of of you let these silly "rules," which by the way are unknown to most of the world, dictate how you dress.

Cruiser


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

MTM_Master? said:


> I choose to leave my last button undone in all but the most formal of situations, as I am young and I think it is a point of interest and conversation-most of my peers did not even know working sleeve buttons exist!


Building on this point, I normally keep all my sleeve buttons fastened, but I have unbuttoned them on several occasions to explain the advantages of high-end tailoring to other people. Those folks (both young and old) are uniformly amazed by the concept of functional buttonholes on jacket sleeves.


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

3holic said:


> Besides, functioning button holes does not denote bespoke, as anyone willing to pay can have his tailor put in hand-sewn button holes on OTR jackets.


Not necessarily true -- some OTR jackets are made with sleeves that are constructed in a manner that prevents them from having functional buttonholes put in them. (One of our posters who is a tailor could probably explain the mechanical details better.)


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Really bad analogy! The fly is fastened to make sure the privates stay private; wherever one stands on the great "working cuffs" controversy, there's no comparison between that area and the wrist/sleeve end area.


Although perhaps not a great analogy, allow me to expand my logic: the point was more that to someone trying to "follow the rules," unbuttoning your sleeves may be as potentially embarrassing or otherwise improper as leaving one's fly down (think: just as you wouldn't leave your fly down, you wouldn't unbutton your sleeves!) If you would prefer, I would alternatively say that _to those very concerned with the "rules," _(as I have come to understand them from many forum members) leaving a sleeve button undone would be as bad as wearing brown shoes with a black belt.

Lastly, let me ask out of friendly curiosity: to those who consider leaving a sleeve button or two undone vulgar, why? It it resentment towards the violating parties' lack of respect or knowledge towards traditional attitudes of dress?


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## medhat (Jan 15, 2006)

This thread stirred a memory from none other than Martin Greenfield. When he measured me for my MTM BB GF suit, he mentioned "leaving the last button unbuttoned". Followed most of his other recommendations that day, but that one I didn't. And haven't. Still seems over the top.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

MTM_Master? said:


> Lastly, let me ask out of friendly curiosity: to those who consider leaving a sleeve button or two undone vulgar, why? It it resentment towards the violating parties' lack of respect or knowledge towards traditional attitudes of dress?


Leaving buttons undone has nothing to do with breaking sartorial rules. I break rules quite often becasue, frankly, I am somewhat of a rebel and feel some rules are nonsense.

Rather, it screams "look at me, I am wearing bespoke!"

It would not be bad if one accidentally forgot to button the sleeves. But to intentionally unbutton the sleeve for the purpose of showing off is indeed poor taste.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Srynerson said:


> Not necessarily true -- some OTR jackets are made with sleeves that are constructed in a manner that prevents them from having functional buttonholes put in them. (One of our posters who is a tailor could probably explain the mechanical details better.)


Those are probably lower end jackets.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Any man who leaves his sleeve buttons unbuttoned deserves a hard right cross square in the face! End of matter.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Easy, JL. There may not be an AAAC if Andy is laid up in the hospital. :icon_smile_big:


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> Any man who leaves his sleeve buttons unbuttoned deserves a hard right cross square in the face! End of matter.


You scare me.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

To those who leave the button unfastened, tell me, are you somehow more comfortable with that button undone? Why leave this button undone? I believe the answer to that question is the main reason I find the practice a little, nauseating.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

gnatty8 said:


> To those who leave the button unfastened, tell me, are you somehow more comfortable with that button undone? Why leave this button undone? I believe the answer to that question is the main reason I find the practice a little, nauseating.


A better question would be, why have the buttons and buttonholes in the first place if they are never going to be unbuttoned? It's a bespoke suit just omit them from the get go; otherwise you are saying that their sole purpose is for appearance with absolutely no real function.

So perhaps that's the answer to your question. They like the way it looks unbuttoned. Perhaps in the same manner that someone might like the way it looks to leave the bottom button of his jacket or vest unbuttoned.

I would suggest that if something as trivial as an unbuttoned cuff button is "nauseating" to you, you really have a weak stomach. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

I just button one button on each sleeve, the one closest to the cuff. And when I am wearing casual clothes, I often don't button all the buttons on my shirt placket.


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## Mr. Tweed (Apr 9, 2009)

Why are the buttons there in the first place? Because historically you were supposed to be able to wash your hands or perform some dirty work without taking off your jacket. You just unbuttoned your cuffs and folded your sleeves up. They are also known as surgeons cuffs, you know.

Nowadays you can remove your jacket in public, without being regarded as vulgar. But we still have buttons on our jacket sleeves, because it looks good. Some even have functional cuffs.

My point is that, from an historical perspective, leaving one or two buttons undone can be viewed as a sign of informality and nonchalance: He did not take the time to button all buttons after washing his hands. I think this is the effect many Italians try to accomplish. And the thing is, just as leaving the bottom button open on you jacket or waistcoat, it looks quite good. 

Of course you can view this as a nouveau riche show off habit. But being slightly traditional to my nature, I prefer not to. Although perhaps not suitable for strict business or formal occasions, leaving one button undone is a nice relaxed gesture in my world.

Yours,
Mr. Tweed


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Mr. Tweed said:


> Why are the buttons there in the first place? Because historically you were supposed to be able to wash your hands or perform some dirty work without taking off your jacket. You just unbuttoned your cuffs and folded your sleeves up. They are also known as surgeons cuffs, you know.


My question was rhetorical and was posed for no reason other than to point out how silly some of these comments are regarding leaving one unbuttoned.

Cruiser


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## Dashiell.Valentine (Dec 18, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> A better question would be, why have the buttons and buttonholes in the first place if they are never going to be unbuttoned? It's a bespoke suit just omit them from the get go; otherwise you are saying that their sole purpose is for appearance with absolutely no real function.
> 
> So perhaps that's the answer to your question. They like the way it looks unbuttoned. Perhaps in the same manner that someone might like the way it looks to leave the bottom button of his jacket or vest unbuttoned.
> Cruiser


Well said, Cruiser.



Mr. Tweed said:


> My point is that, from an historical perspective, leaving one or two buttons undone can be viewed as a sign of informality and nonchalance: He did not take the time to button all buttons after washing his hands. I think this is the effect many Italians try to accomplish. And the thing is, just as leaving the bottom button open on you jacket or waistcoat, it looks quite good.
> 
> Of course you can view this as a nouveau riche show off habit. But being slightly traditional to my nature, I prefer not to. Although perhaps not suitable for strict business or formal occasions, leaving one button undone is a nice relaxed gesture in my world.


Mr. Tweed, I completely agree.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

DCLawyer68 said:


> Perhaps that's the way I'd characterize it. Vulgar seems harsh, affected is probably a more accurate characterization. It's certainly harmless.
> 
> However, note that the definition of affectation is something inauthentic or unnatural. I'm not sure why someone would deliberately choose this.


I agree. Vulgar is used way too much on these forums to describe comparatively inoffensive things. It makes me think some bad British stereotype is behind the keyboard getting his blood pressure worked up over things that do not meet his approval... while sitting in a fine leather armchair of course.



Blueboy1938 said:


> Please, please tell us who it is!
> 
> Nevertheless, Archy does keep buttoned, while sitting, _both_ the middle and top buttons on that three-button-non-_fakery-roll-two_ coat.


Uh... heh... :icon_smile_big:










(We know you hate the 3/2 sack coat already. Time to move on!)



JLibourel said:


> Any man who leaves his sleeve buttons unbuttoned deserves a hard right cross square in the face! End of matter.


Haven't you thought of enough violence against people who do not meet your expectations? :icon_smile_wink:


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## Nerev (Apr 25, 2009)

gnatty8 said:


> To those who leave the button unfastened, tell me, are you somehow more comfortable with that button undone? Why leave this button undone? I believe the answer to that question is the main reason I find the practice a little, nauseating.


In case I need to do emergency surgury with my swiss army knife. 100 years ago.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Cruiser said:


> My question was rhetorical and was posed for no reason other than to point out how silly some of these comments are regarding leaving one unbuttoned.
> 
> Cruiser





3holic said:


> Leaving buttons undone has nothing to do with breaking sartorial rules.
> Rather, it screams "look at me, I am wearing bespoke!"
> 
> It would not be bad if one accidentally forgot to button the sleeves. But to intentionally unbutton the sleeve for the purpose of showing off is indeed poor taste.


I'm afraid I fail to see anything silly about these latter statements, and would have to admit I agree wholeheartedly.

Fashion is merely a matter of trend, and can well include affectations.
Style, on the other hand, emanates from a source far deeper than the clothing one wears. 
A true gentleman looks to the needs and desires of others, rather than attempting to call attention to himself.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> A true gentleman looks to the needs and desires of others,


And if the "needs and desires" of another is to unbutton one of his cuff buttons----- :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Cruiser said:


> And if the "needs and desires" of another is to unbutton one of his cuff buttons----- :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


Unless he asks, I will say nothing and, to myself, wish him the good fortune to find a path to greater enlightenment.
If he does ask, I will quietly suggest what I believe the most refined option to be (as I have done.)


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

Having all the cuff buttons done up strikes me as the same mentality behind driving a convertable - on a beautiful, sunny day - with the top up. It's also really more "stuffy middle manager" than "gentlemanly".

For my part, I'll always choose fun over "refinement", so I'd probably leave a button or two undone. Unless it's very cold, in which case I'd button-up 

A friend of mine, Karel von Schwarzenberg - who happens to be a Prince, the head of a royal house, AND decidedly NOT vulgar - often wears one cuff (the left) entirely buttoned and the other (the right) entirely unbuttoned. Even to the symphony; it's whimsical and fun.

The Italians call this "sprezzatura", which is sort of the art of appearing not to care too much (or, in this case quite literally not looking too "buttoned up").

DH


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

It's hard to imagine one sleeve button--much less several-- being unbuttoned except by design. I have a few jackets with working buttonholes and I have never had an instance where I would unbutton the entire cuff and roll it back. I can't even think of one. Has anyone here ever found it necessary to unbutton a jacket sleeve for a serious reason?


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dhaller said:


> Having all the cuff buttons done up strikes me as the same mentality behind driving a convertable - on a beautiful, sunny day - with the top up. It's also really more "stuffy middle manager" than "gentlemanly".
> 
> For my part, I'll always choose fun over "refinement", so I'd probably leave a button or two undone. Unless it's very cold, in which case I'd button-up
> 
> ...


good logic


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

cdavant said:


> It's hard to imagine one sleeve button--much less several-- being unbuttoned except by design. I have a few jackets with working buttonholes and I have never had an instance where I would unbutton the entire cuff and roll it back. I can't even think of one. Has anyone here ever found it necessary to unbutton a jacket sleeve for a serious reason?


Washing hands, maybe?


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## Mr. Tweed (Apr 9, 2009)

Cruiser said:


> My question was rhetorical and was posed for no reason other than to point out how silly some of these comments are regarding leaving one unbuttoned.
> 
> Cruiser


Well actually I did not, believe it or not, try to answer your (indeed retorical) question. Rather trying to make some kind of a point myself...

Yours,
Mr. Tweed


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

cdavant said:


> It's hard to imagine one sleeve button--much less several-- being unbuttoned except by design. I have a few jackets with working buttonholes and I have never had an instance where I would unbutton the entire cuff and roll it back. I can't even think of one. Has anyone here ever found it necessary to unbutton a jacket sleeve for a serious reason?


Actually, yes. I was attending a party in the summer. All the ice in a cooler containing the good beer had melted, so the bottles of beer were lying under about 7 inches of ice water. So, I unbuttoned the sleeve buttons on my blazer, rolled up my shirtsleeve and retrieved the beer. I suppose I could have removed my blazer and rolled up my shirtsleeve, but I felt that would be a bit gauche. As I recall, there was no very clean or convenient place to set my blazer anyway.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Jovan said:


> I agree. Vulgar is used way too much on these forums to describe comparatively inoffensive things. It makes me think some bad British stereotype is behind the keyboard getting his blood pressure worked up over things that do not meet his approval... while sitting in a fine leather armchair of course.
> 
> Uh... heh... :icon_smile_big:
> 
> ...


I am actually quite a stereotypical English man! As such when I wrote the post about open buttonholes being "vulgar" I was in the back of a taxi near union square recovering from a rather large intake of Leffe Blonde, Martini's and a Lamb Rogan Josh........So take it with a pinch of salt.

That said its still Vulgar.......maybe its a strong word though. I dont like it but I wouldn't hold it against someone.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> A better question would be, why have the buttons and buttonholes in the first place if they are never going to be unbuttoned? It's a bespoke suit just omit them from the get go; otherwise you are saying that their sole purpose is for appearance with absolutely no real function.
> 
> So perhaps that's the answer to your question. They like the way it looks unbuttoned. Perhaps in the same manner that someone might like the way it looks to leave the bottom button of his jacket or vest unbuttoned.
> 
> ...


I can assure you Cruiser, I have a very weak stomach when it comes to such things.. :icon_smile_wink:


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> My question was rhetorical and was posed for no reason other than to point out how silly some of these comments are regarding leaving one unbuttoned.
> 
> Cruiser


Now Cruiser, is JC Penney really making suits and sportcoats with working buttonholes these days? Tell me you're not taking these to your tailor and having them added ex post..


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Yeah!*



RM Bantista said:


> One may imagine many situations where one would prefer to cuff the sleeve of a jacket rather than incur damage or harm from some circumstance.


Playing poker:icon_smile_big:


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

gnatty8 said:


> Now Cruiser, is JC Penney really making suits and sportcoats with working buttonholes these days? Tell me you're not taking these to your tailor and having them added ex post..


No, none of my jackets have working buttonholes on the cuffs. I'm just saying that if they did I wouldn't have any problem leaving one unbuttoned and it doesn't bother me in the least if someone else does it. I think I said this in a prior thread on this same subject.

Heck, I leave buttons undone all the time. To be honest with you this is such a trivial matter either way that I'm amazed that it gets this much discussion.

Cruiser


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> Heck, I leave buttons undone all the time.
> Cruiser


Would that include your shirt unfastened all the way to the navel button? Oh no, now I can't get that image out of my mind.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> No, none of my jackets have working buttonholes on the cuffs. I'm just saying that if they did I wouldn't have any problem leaving one unbuttoned and it doesn't bother me in the least if someone else does it. I think I said this in a prior thread on this same subject.
> 
> Heck, I leave buttons undone all the time. To be honest with you this is such a trivial matter either way that I'm amazed that it gets this much discussion.
> 
> Cruiser


Now why would you leave one unfastened, do you have extra thick wrists?


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## flatsixcrazy (Jul 1, 2008)

gnatty8 said:


> To those who leave the button unfastened, tell me, are you somehow more comfortable with that button undone? Why leave this button undone? I believe the answer to that question is the main reason I find the practice a little, nauseating.


Does not make a difference regarding the comfort level between fastened or unfastened sleeves buttons and similarly can be said of leaving the last bottom button undone on a vest. It all depends on the mood of the wearer I supposed, like the choice of one's socks. BTW, I can go either way with my sleeve buttons. Unless you've paid for my suits, I wear it the way I like it.


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## Beau (Oct 4, 2007)

gnatty8 said:


> Now why would you leave one unfastened, do you have extra thick wrists?


Exactly why this is a must with my newest suit. The sleeve opening is narrow, so that when I wear it with an MTM french cuff shirt and my only watch, it becomes somewhat binding. I unfasten the end button on the right suit sleeve to keep things symmetrical.


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## phillyesq (Dec 9, 2008)

I don't consider it vulgar to leave the first button open. On suits that I have with functional buttons, I generally leave the first one open, unless I am meeting with a Judge or doing something similarly formal.

The working sleeve buttons are kind of fun and funky -- if they work, why not use them? I've seen others with the first button open, and I have never thought less of the wearer. If anything, I realize that I'm dealing with somebody else who appreciates nice clothing.


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

To the extent that this is advertising, it's about as subtle as you can get. Very few people will notice or care, and I think this makes it a particularly forgivable peccadillo. The only ones who pay enough attention are the ones who would be curious to know if a jacket is MTM/Bespoke. In fact, I find it less a signal of a coat's quality than a signal that its wearer is a connoisseur of clothing. One can think of it as a secret handshake.

Furthermore, I find it slightly disingenuous to claim that showing off _in any way_ is itself vulgar. Clearly there remain levels at which showing-off becomes vulgar, but all behavior on some level projects an image. Posters here are particularly conscious of the image that we project, and we wear many things that are instantly recognizable as expensive. The real issue is not whether showing off is vulgar, because it's literally impossible to avoid doing it on some level. The issue is _at what point_ showing off becomes vulgar. I submit that an undone button-hole is far beneath the level of vulgarity.

That said, I leave mine buttoned. I also don't have any pick-stitching, custom linings, or other marks of tailored clothing. At the age of 26, I genuinely prefer to keep the source of my suits a secret. Maybe in 10 years I'd be willing to tell someone who asks where I get the goods, but at this point I find it prudent to actively conceal. In some cases, this means I consciously dress worse than I would otherwise. I would love to wear brown EGs, but black AEs fit my role a bit better.


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## sartorial_1 (Sep 21, 2008)

phillyesq said:


> The working sleeve buttons are kind of fun and funky -- if they work, why not use them? I've seen others with the first button open, and I have never thought less of the wearer. If anything, I realize that I'm dealing with somebody else who appreciates nice clothing.


Good POV


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

It looks better on those Tom Ford suits that already have one sleeve button too many...


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*hot weather*



cdavant said:


> It's hard to imagine one sleeve button--much less several-- being unbuttoned except by design. I have a few jackets with working buttonholes and I have never had an instance where I would unbutton the entire cuff and roll it back. I can't even think of one. Has anyone here ever found it necessary to unbutton a jacket sleeve for a serious reason?


When it gets into the high 90's or above 100 I unbutton the cuffs of my jacket (and sometimes my shirt sleeves). As I am particularly uncomfortable in hot weather I consider this to be a serious reason.

Irrespective of seriousness or practicality, I occasionally leave one or two cuff buttons undone, just for the fun of it. I feel a bit of a twinge as I actually consider it slightly ostentatious, but it is fun.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## loarbmhs (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm solidly in the camp of _not _unbuttoning working buttons holes (and I have them on all my bespoke jackets). Here's my logic:

First, a hundred years ago, the original purpose of the working button was to allow doctors to more easily move their sleeves out of the way when they washed their hands (no word yet on why they didn't simply take off their jacket!). That's why they're called surgeon's cuffs. And by the way, they'd _re-button _the sleeves when they were done. The sole purpose of leaving them unbuttoned today is to show off and scream, "Look at me, I have working button holes." What it _doesn't_ communicate is good taste, any more than adorning a bespoke jacket with contrasting stitching on the lapel button hole or the first working button hole does.

Second, working button holes are no longer the sole province of bespoke jackets. Even some very down-market, ready-made brands are adding them. So when you leave them unbuttoned, what you're really shouting is, "I'm wearing an expensive bespoke jacket-or a cheap off-the-rack one; you'll have to guess which."

Third, and perhaps this is a restatement of my first reason, I prefer to communicate good taste in my clothing primarily by having it fit well, regardless of what it cost or how much hand-tailoring it has. I don't care for those around me to know where I bought my suits or jackets; I just don't want them to see me in an ill-fitting garment. So while I wouldn't rank leaving a sleeve button unbuttoned at the same level of gaucheness as not removing the outside sleeve label that some brands inexplicably sew there, I'd rather be understated and quiet in my well-fitting jacket. Call me crazy.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

I admit that I occasionally have a button undone although not always the last one. Usually it's because I am bored (at a meeting for example) and fiddle with them. The working button has become so ubiquitous that I am more conscious than ever to keep them buttoned simply because it seems so silly that everyone wears them with the last one unbuttoned. It appears this has become the "rule," in the same way that one doesn't button the last of his vest buttons. It wouldn't surprise me to one day hear sartorialists opine that this is indeed de rigueur.

But what really looks awful is this trend to highlight the last button hole with contrasting thread. I certainly hope this fashion trend doesn't become a lasting element of style.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I wonder how many other trends have come and gone since the inception of this thread.....nearly 10 years ago!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^LOL, 
but remember, as the lab worker said to Dr Frankenstein..."It's alive!"


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^LOL,
> but remember, as the lab worker said to Dr Frankenstein..."It's alive!"


Indeed! And recall what else Herr Doktor said:


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## bernoulli (Mar 21, 2011)

I did it one time and then realized that most people that would see it would think that the jacket was defective. After that realization, I stopped. I was lucky that the whole fad lasted about 15 minutes as far as I am concerned.


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## Kyle76 (May 5, 2017)

I never saw Tom Wolfe leave a jacket sleeve button unbuttoned, and since he wrote a generally accepted treatise on the subject of working buttonholes, he's my arbiter of style on the matter.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Believe when Tom Wolfe wrote that- sleeve button holes where still only on bespoke jackets and coats. Don't think many, back then, where interested in showing off. But, there are always a few. Nowadays, these buttonholes are a toy? From that sense, why not play with them in a social way? Just look at shoes. There not all black or one cut style. Can't play with buttonholes? But you can with shoes? Indeed, shoes are under the table when making a million dollar business deal, so at that moment, not a distraction. But, who cares about buttonholes when making a million dollar deal?

When I taught skiing we wore a certain coat. Ski pants maybe same color. But most of us thought the hat should be the individuals choice. Instead of sterilizing the ski instructors we got to have a little character and personality with the hat. Ties are the same, except for some schools and choirs, etc. The pocket squares, and even flowers give opportunity for character and personality. Don't think buttonholes, colored, buttoned, or not, with all the other distractions, would bother anyone. Rules are not written in stone. Otherwise, where is your top hat? Surely not in the attic or lost in the closet?

Somewhere you can read the argument between teenage Prince and his father the King about creases in trousers. Something like, "You are not going to wear those outrageous teenage fashion creases in your trousers for this special evening with important people! You are not going to embarrass the Crown and Kingdom!" You can't buy a suit without those creases today.

Important in one or several generations, and silly in the next.


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## Kyle76 (May 5, 2017)

In Wolfe's essay, they definitely *were* showing off, but only to those who knew enough to look closely at a man's jacket cuffs.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Haven't read his stuff for a long time. But yeah, that was the way it was. And only handmade. You'd be laughed out of kingdom kong if you were a tailor and used a machine. A fine hand made buttonhole is fine art; one of a kind. Not mass-produced art as store bought and mtm. Although, some of those machines make nice looking buttonholes. A handmade buttonhole, not tight, will last a long time, feel better, and look better, too.


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## EponymousFunk (Jun 4, 2019)

JBierly said:


> ... it seems so silly that everyone wears them with the last one unbuttoned. It appears this has become the "rule," in the same way that one doesn't button the last of his vest buttons. It wouldn't surprise me to one day hear sartorialists opine that this is indeed de rigueur...


Just a few short years ago, a tailor assured me this was indeed "what one does" with working buttons. In practice it seemed awkard, though I have found that leaving the last button open on my left coat sleeve keeps the cufflink (when I wear them) from snagging the coat cuff and pulling the sleeve inside out while taking the coat off (I have slightly limited mobility in my left shoulder so something about my body mechanics causes this to happen). It is sufficiently annoying that for those suits I have with working buttons, that button remains permanently open.



JBierly said:


> But what really looks awful is this trend to highlight the last button hole with contrasting thread. I certainly hope this fashion trend doesn't become a lasting element of style.


Yes, that does seem a trifle much. At least with a typical complementary thread color, an unfastened button is somewhat discreet...

Regards,


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## EponymousFunk (Jun 4, 2019)

Kyle76 said:


> I never saw Tom Wolfe leave a jacket sleeve button unbuttoned, and since he wrote a generally accepted treatise on the subject of working buttonholes, he's my arbiter of style on the matter.


I just _had_ to go look that up--good read!

Regards,


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## loarbmhs (Sep 17, 2011)

sartorial_1 said:


> For suit jacket sleeves with working buttonholes - do you ever leave the last button unbuttoned?
> 
> Seems like this could be a fashionable look and a nice way to show off your suit jacket to others "in the know".


Nope, it's extremely tacky-like you said, "show off." Real gentlemen with class and elegance don't feel the need to shout, "Look at my functioning button holes." Besides, even some cheap ready-made clothing today has working button holes, so it's no longer a clear sign of a finely tailored jacket.

Said more simply, men "really in the know" keep their buttons buttoned. All my jackets have working button holes and I never, ever unbutton them. Strongly suggest that you don't, either.

As as for contrasting thread around the lapel button hole or the last sleeve button, another extremely tacky addition. There is not a single Savile Row tailor in his right mind who would let a client do this. Being well dressed is not about calling attention to yourself by adorning your clothing with geegaws such as this. Just concentrate on finding a jacket that fits well and leave it at that.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Methinks the DI's/TI's back in Basic Training had it right..."if you are wearing it, all zippers must be zipped and buttons buttoned." If such wasn't the case, they (the DI's/TI's) would be in your face...and that was never good!


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## EponymousFunk (Jun 4, 2019)

loarbmhs said:


> Nope, it's extremely tacky-like you said, "show off." Real gentlemen with class and elegance don't feel the need to shout, "Look at my functioning button holes."...men "really in the know" keep their buttons buttoned...


I can see a different point of view on this: if it's not illegal or immoral, doesn't cause harm to others (sartorial angst notwithstanding), and he has a good reason to do it, a gentleman may do what he pleases with his button holes (fill them with a button or not).

And other gentlemen might simply accept it as an individual preference (or quirk) of style. It's not as though fellows are wandering about sans underpants with their flies open... 




eagle2250 said:


> Methinks the DI's/TI's back in Basic Training had it right..."if you are wearing it, all zippers must be zipped and buttons buttoned." If such wasn't the case, they (the DI's/TI's) would be in your face...and that was never good!


I know exactly what you mean and generally agree.

Perhaps old TIs could be re-purposed...something along the lines of "Terry Tate - Office Linebacker".

Call them the "Suit Police"...or "Saville Row Vice"...endless possibilities. 

Regards,​


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