# Tartan Plaid



## Rugby (May 21, 2011)

Is Tartan Plaid a seasonal or winter pattern?

For some reason, I associate this with the end-of-the-year...
I have a tie as well as a separate jacket. 

Can these be worn year round, or I am in a rush to get my rotations in pretty quick?


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

There are no dumb little rules about wearing tartan for me. It comes from Scotland and has always been a part of their heritage. It is worn during Christmas because of the festive designs (red and green). I wear it year round, but usually darker colors in the winter and brighter colors in the summer


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Bermuda said:


> There are no dumb little rules about wearing tartan for me. It comes from Scotland and has always been a part of their heritage. It is worn during Christmas because of the festive designs (red and green). I wear it year round, but usually darker colors in the winter and brighter colors in the summer


+1. I think that about covers it.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Bermuda said:


> There are no dumb little rules about wearing tartan for me. It comes from Scotland and has always been a part of their heritage. It is worn during Christmas because of the festive designs (red and green). I wear it year round, but usually darker colors in the winter and brighter colors in the summer


Accurate and concise.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

Thinking of golf for a moment, the Harbour Town and Colonial events feature tartan attire. Neither is in a cold climate! If the weight is right, fire away!


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

True, but I have yet to see a tropical-weight black watch jacket (still looking).


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## Grenadier (Dec 24, 2008)

I'm a big fan of tartan and plaid patterns for year-round wear, although admittedly they are more pronounced in autumnal and wintery garments.

As an aside, finding traditional tartan fabrics or patterns for drapery / upholstery is almost impossible unless one wants to pay retail for Ralph Lauren's fabrics, which can be in excess of $200/yd.


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## ddonicht (Jul 21, 2011)

I think the only reason they are normally worn in the colder months is because the garments it is used on tend to be for that type of weather (heaver and thicker). If you can find it in lighter forms or just like to sweat, go for it any time the mood strikes you.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

Well coming from Scotland originally, the fabrics are usually designed for their climate, which is not too cold and not too hot, usually like the fall in the NE USA. This thread is making me want to get out my kilt!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Bermuda said:


> There are no dumb little rules about wearing tartan for me. It comes from Scotland and has always been a part of their heritage. It is worn during Christmas because of the festive designs (red and green). I wear it year round, but usually darker colors in the winter and brighter colors in the summer


Good for you, as far as rules are concerned. However, as far as the Scots are concerned, tartan hasn't "always been a part of their heritage". It is a fairly recent invention, 2-300 years or so, and was only ever highland Scots dress, and then only briefly. The "clan tartan" rules are an early 19th century invention. Wear tartan if you like the pattern, but don't pretend that there is anything cultural or "heritage" about it. There are some regimental setts that it might be a good idea to avoid, in case somebody thinks that you are trying to show that you served in the Gordons, or whichever regiment.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

I wasn't considering 300 years ago to be "fairly recent." And in the US most people unfortunately do not even know that the tartans represent a particular clan or regiment, so there isn't much need to worry about someone thinking you are or were in the Scottish military.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Bermuda said:


> I wasn't considering 300 years ago to be "fairly recent." And in the US most people unfortunately do not even know that the tartans represent a particular clan or regiment, so there isn't much need to worry about someone thinking you are or were in the Scottish military.


With respect, you stated that tartan (incidentally a French word) _"__comes from Scotland and has always been a part of their heritage."_. I merely pointed out that it hadn't. As I suggested, wear what you like, but don't assume that you're connecting to any kind of a real heritage.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

To make sense of the question, it would help to have some clarity as to what the OP means by "tartan plaid." Both words are used in a variety of sense, used differently in different countries and have historical meanings that aren't really relevant today. Just to add to the confusion, in their most general American meanings, "tartan" and "plaid" are essentially synonyms. Given the fact that the OP used both words, he presumably didn't mean them that way, but - I'm guessing - he's referring to items made of heavier wool fabric in traditionally "Scottish-looking" designs.

Just to state the obvious: heavier wool fabric is, by nature, seasonal.

As is also obvious, plaids are worn in all sorts of fabrics in all sorts of seasons and situations, with no particular rules. Standard Madras shirts are an obvious example. Plaid flannel shirts (in wool or cotton) are such a common "dressed down" item they pretty much became a cliche a couple decades back.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Taken Aback said:


> True, but I have yet to see a tropical-weight black watch jacket (still looking).


It's not trad but I liked it. It's not "tropical" but it's a lightweight worsted. And it's on sale at Nordstrom now.

Ted Baker endurance. Google if you're interested. If not, please disregard


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

I see a Navy plaid available for that item. Was that what you referred to, or was there an actual black watch version as well?


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

At my store it was Blackwatch. Pretty cool. If you're interested I can get more info. Just PM me.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Chouan said:


> Good for you, as far as rules are concerned. However, as far as the Scots are concerned, tartan hasn't "always been a part of their heritage". It is a fairly recent invention, 2-300 years or so, and was only ever highland Scots dress, and then only briefly. The "clan tartan" rules are an early 19th century invention. Wear tartan if you like the pattern, but don't pretend that there is anything cultural or "heritage" about it.


The earliest Scottish tartan was the forefather to the Shepherd Check, a remnant of which was discovered at Falkirk dating back to the 3rd century AD. You will note that this is tartan from the Lowlands.

The earliest reference to tartan in the Highlands and Isles that I know of is c.1695. You will find the reference in:

Martin, M. (c.1695). _Description of the Western Isles of Scotland._

I have provided some other references in this thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?115257-Formal-kilt-for-black-tie-event...including descriptions of common people wearing tartan in the Lowlands c1750. I would say that even if one was to only consider Scotland's recent tartan heritage (post 1700), the extent to which it has been used means it has become an integral part of that country's identity. Yes, clan tartans are 'only' 180 years old or so but one would have to be a cynical curmudgeon to advise people against wearing them on that basis.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

Thank you DougNZ


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes, please read the whole thread for the arguments against this also. Please note that at no point have I advised against the wearing of tartan or kilts. I've only advised against investing too much cultural or historical belief in wearing them. Wear them, or anything else. It is your free choice! But if you think that it is an expression of anything beyond a romantic an inaccurate connection with Scotland you'll be mistaken. A friend of my son wears the full works, doublet, kilt and sporran etc. He and his mother (a "wee free") are from Aberdeen and his father is from Goa. Would I criticise him wearing it? certainly not; it is no more than a form of rather formal fancy dress and if he enjoys it, good for him! But he isn't expressing any kind of real historical heritage in doing so, just a modern invented "tradition".


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Chouan said:


> Please note that at no point have I advised against the wearing of tartan or kilts. I've only advised against investing too much cultural or historical belief in wearing them. Wear them, or anything else. It is your free choice! But if you think that it is an expression of anything beyond a romantic an inaccurate connection with Scotland you'll be mistaken.


Yes, Scottish National Dress is a relatively modern invention. So is whiskey. So is the Great Highland Bagpipe in its current form and most of the music played on it. But these symbols of Scottish culture are arguably the most recognisable of any culture in the world. Regardless of their age or the means of their coming into being they are now an inextricable part of Scotland and its identity, and have been for almost 200 years. It is, like it or not, Chouan, real historical heritage.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm going to have to agree with DougNZ on this one, as I am a bagpipe player myself. When people in the United States see a tartan kilt, they connect it to Scotland. Prince Charles wears a kilt when he is in Scotland.....


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Chouan said:


> it is no more than a form of rather formal fancy dress ...


How can it be fancy dress when it is frequenty used in a modern sense throughout the world according to dress conventions that have changed no more than European fashions over the past 100 years?

Turning up to an event in a _feileadh mhor_ (Great Kilt) or _brat_ and _leine_ (plaid and long shirt) is fancy dress. I advise staying away from anyone doing so that has long hair and carries a claymore! Turning up to an appropriate event in Scottish National Dress (of any form) is to be appropriately attired in the Scottish tradition.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

DougNZ said:


> How can it be fancy dress when it is frequenty used in a modern sense throughout the world according to dress conventions that have changed no more than European fashions over the past 100 years?
> 
> Turning up to an event in a _feileadh mhor_ (Great Kilt) or _brat_ and _leine_ (plaid and long shirt) is fancy dress. I advise staying away from anyone doing so that has long hair and carries a claymore! Turning up to an appropriate event in Scottish National Dress (of any form) is to be appropriately attired in the Scottish tradition.


But, it hasn't ALWAYS been Scottish dress, which is what was said. 
It is, no matter how much you seek to defend it, an invented tradition which has nothing to do with the actual heritage and historical background of most Scots. So what if it is an internationally recognisable form of dress, it still doesn't make it authentic, and it is therefore fancy dress.
If, for example, I attended a formal "do" in Naval uniform of the appropriate type, it would be acceptable. If, however, somebody arrived in Naval uniform with no Naval connection, it would be fancy dress. If I wore a 19th Century Naval uniform it would also be fancy dress. A modern person, of Lowland Scots heritage who wears a kilt is wearing fancy dress. Nothing to stop them from doing so, but that is what it is. A modern person of Highland Scots heritage wearing a modern kilt, is wearing a modern version of their cultural dress, so would at least have some kind of connection with it.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Oh, goodness, Chouan ...!

Almost all traditions are invented at some time. Your Naval uniform (of whatever era) ... invented. The _feileadh beg_ (little kilt) which you say a Highland descendant may wear ... invented. Going to granny's every year for Christmas dinner ... invented.

Are those of us who wear a suit each day in fancy dress because our 4 x great grandfathers and beyond never wore a lounge suit? For that matter, are those of us wearing trousers in fancy dress because our ancestors wore robes?

For the last 100 years at least, the kilt has been the sartorial symbol of Scotland - all Scotland. Of course it hasn't been the apparel of all Scots historically. But it has been around long enough, and used by such vast numbers of Scots and Scottish migrants of various backgrounds, to have well and truely become the traditional and authentic dress (and not costume) of Scotland.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

DougNZ said:


> Oh, goodness, Chouan ...!
> 
> Almost all traditions are invented at some time. Your Naval uniform (of whatever era) ... invented. The _feileadh beg_ (little kilt) which you say a Highland descendant may wear ... invented. Going to granny's every year for Christmas dinner ... invented.
> 
> ...


Of course uniform is invented, but it isn't described as "traditional". Kilts and all that goes with it has been invented as a shared Scots tradition, when, historically, it isn't. It is worn as a badge of Scottishness, but it isn't "authentic" in any sense, any more than the kilts and Scots pipe bands of Irish associations all over the world are authentic!


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

You probably want to drop this whole "tartans aren't authentic" thing. It seems to be based on one or the other of the following:
- things that aren't more than x-hundred years old aren't authentic, or
- (a slightly more subtle and perhaps more defensible alternative): things that people _think_ are more than x-hundred years old, when they're not, aren't authentic.

The latter makes sense, if you think "authentic" means "authentically more than x-hundred years old," but only in that situation ... in much the same way that a reproduction armoire isn't an "authentic antique." But what's missing in the instance we're talking about is the word "antique." Kilts and the like are authentic emblems of Scottishness, even if they aren't authentically ancient.

The American flag is certainly authentic, though it only goes back to the 18th century (and the exact current version, of course, only to 1959).
For that matter, the Union Jack is authentic; it officially only goes back to the 19th century (though variants of basic design are older).
Many French national symbols, including the tricolor, are quite definitely late 18th-century.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Age has nothing to do with it. If, for example, Americans adopted a loose version of 18th century Iroquois dress as "national" dress, would it be accepted as an authentic and universal form of American national dress? Or would it be seen as a strange invention that had no historical rationale? I'm inclined to theink the latter. Most Americans, be they of European or Native heritage would have no cultural connection to it so it would lack authenticity. 
Kilts are the same.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Chouan said:


> Most Americans, be they of European or Native heritage would have no cultural connection to (a strange invention that has no historical rationale) so it would lack authenticity. Kilts are the same.


Apologies that I have had to make the quotation in a rather questionable manner. But, in this case, "methinks the lady doth protest too much". I have the strong feeling that you WANT the wearing of the kilt to be seen as inauthentic, so you affirm that it is and seem to be oblivious to contra-arguments.
The gap between the banning of Highland dress after the 1745 rebellion and its revival (perhaps with a degree of inauthenticity) was not an unbridgeable one as far as folk-memory is concerned (75 years or so), and if there were a few Highlanders who wanted the memory to be passed on, they would have made sure that the person to whom it was passed got it right so that it could be accurately passed on again.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Chouan said:


> If, for example, Americans adopted a loose version of 18th century Iroquois dress as "national" dress, would it be accepted as an authentic and universal form of American national dress?


If it were, indeed, really "adopted ... as 'national' dress," then it would be accepted as authentic national dress. If it were adopted as "universal" national dress, it would be accepted as universal national dress.

The only thing that makes your hypothetical seem weird is that it hasn't been so adopted.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> I'm a big fan of tartan and plaid patterns for year-round wear, although admittedly they are more pronounced in autumnal and wintery garments.


This is a good stance in my humble opinion.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

How I might want it to be seen is irrelevant. If you are of Highland heritage, wearing a kilt, however altered in style and design, is part of your culture and heritage. If you're of Irish, or Lowland Scots heritage, a kilt has nothing to do with your heritage or culture. It would be an invented tradition without any authentic link to your heritage. Wear it by all means, or tartan, but don't imagine that it is anything to do with your heritage, unless your heritage is of the Scottish Highlands.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Starch said:


> If it were, indeed, really "adopted ... as 'national' dress," then it would be accepted as authentic national dress. If it were adopted as "universal" national dress, it would be accepted as universal national dress.
> 
> The only thing that makes your hypothetical seem weird is that it hasn't been so adopted.










Echoing Starch, America is the land where weird dreams are realized and this Iroquois national dress thing now seems a likely prospect. I predict the Iroquois will want some royalty arrangements and wonder what these garments will look like if/when they are made in China and the ensuing debate here if they are 'trad' or not and why JAB's are less desirable.


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## CardsHockey (Oct 30, 2014)

Resurrecting an old thread.

I'm looking to add more sport shirts to my wardrobe. I already have a burgundy tartan sport shirt that is very "Christmas-y" to me so I'm looking to avoid adding anything that *seems* to be belong to only fall/winter.

So is the below in green still too dark to be worn in spring/summer? Is the light blue a better year-round option? On it's own, I prefer the green but again I don't need another seasonal-specific shirt. Thanks!

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/Non-...l?dwvar_MG02589_Color=BLUM&contentpos=1&cgid=


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

Taken Aback said:


> True, but I have yet to see a tropical-weight black watch jacket (still looking).


The Spring Ben Silver catalog has a linen black watch jacket that you might want to look at.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

fishertw said:


> The Spring Ben Silver catalog has a linen black watch jacket that you might want to look at.


You think he's still looking six years later?


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

FLMike said:


> You think he's still looking six years later?


OOPS didn't notice the date.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

fishertw said:


> OOPS didn't notice the date.


No worries. Happens a lot when someone resurrects an old thread. Others unwittingly respond thinking it's a current topic/conversation. Easy mistake to make.....


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