# Park Aves pinch top of feet - what is right size?



## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

I'm starting out my shoe collection and read great things about Allen Edmonds, so I picked up a couple pairs at the Nordstrom sale. I LOVE their look and I can tell they are quality, so I want to find a way to make them work for me. The Park Aves that I have in 9.5D pinch the top of my foot at the crease when I walk. AE says that this means they fit is wrong. I will basically have to buy a bunch of different sizes and return whatever doesn't work. Any ideas what size I should try? I've attached pictures to show the problem.

hen I'm just standing in them and not walking, the fit feels perfect.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

i would go back to nordstrom's, and try on a 10d... maybe moving your toes back to the area that pinches your foot will work since your bending toes will be in that spot... if the 10d is a better fit, and nordstrom's won't make the exchange, contact AE customer service & tell them your story, they will probably exchange them for you... alternatively, you could try a 9.5e, i'm not sure if the wider width will alleviate your issue or not...


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks for the input salgy. I'm sure Nordstrom will take them back and do an exchange, but the problem is that the local Nordstrom has NO Park Aves in stock, so I am going to be forced to order them off their website and return whatever doesn't fit.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

have nordstrom order a pair for you? that way you still get the sale price... i would try the 10 first... i think that should solve your issue... worst case you have to order online, but great thing about AE; they offer free shipping both ways & they refund quickly!


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

salgy said:


> i would go back to nordstrom's, and try on a 10d...


I would beg to differ with the idea of getting a larger shoe. The problem is due to that crease (a normal occurrence, related to the point where the foot bends) being too far back. That should indicate a need to move to a _smaller _size.

OP, go back to Nordstrom and take some time getting a proper fit. Have them use the Brannock device and determine your size based on the ball of the foot measurement, not the toe, then take into account the fact that the PA is on an unusually long and narrow last. 
It would be best to try on a number of size and width variations in-store, to help find a good fit.

And why in the world would you want to order replacements online? Have the Nordstrom SA (or better yet, shoe manager) order them in for you. You may have to put the replacements on your CC until you return one pair, but it is far better to have the whole transaction taken care of by the staff of the store where you made the original purchase. (And if they do not have Park Avenues in stock, do they have another AE shoe on the 5 last that you could try in different sizes? That would certainly make the process of finding your best fit easier.)


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

salgy said:


> i would go back to nordstrom's, and try on a 10d... maybe moving your toes back to the area that pinches your foot will work since your bending toes will be in that spot... if the 10d is a better fit, and nordstrom's won't make the exchange, contact AE customer service & tell them your story, they will probably exchange them for you... alternatively, you could try a 9.5e, i'm not sure if the wider width will alleviate your issue or not...


Based on the photo, I'd be going down in size not up.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

mrp, you think a 9d? 9e?


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> I would beg to differ with the idea of getting a larger shoe. The problem is due to that crease (a normal occurrence, related to the point where the foot bends) being too far back. That should indicate a need to move to a _smaller _size.
> 
> OP, go back to Nordstrom and take some time getting a proper fit. Have them use the Brannock device and determine your size based on the ball of the foot measurement, not the toe, then take into account the fact that the PA is on an unusually long and narrow last.
> It would be best to try on a number of size and width variations in-store, to help find a good fit.
> ...


The only shoe they have in a 5 last is the Strand...also in 9.5. No other sizes. I did have them fit me originally and they told me a 9.5 was what I wanted, but I don't know if they did the ball of the foot measurement. Every time I have tried to get them to order more sizes for me they have made me order them and return what didn't work.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> I would beg to differ with the idea of getting a larger shoe. The problem is due to that crease (a normal occurrence, related to the point where the foot bends) being too far back. That should indicate a need to move to a _smaller _size.


on my shoes, i find 2 creases, the first right where the toes bend (pretty much behind the seam of the cap-toe) and another further up the vamp... since i didn't see the first crease in the OP's pictures, i am assuming (probably incorrectly) that his toe crease _is_ along the seam of the cap-toe. due to this crease needing to be along the thickest part of the shoe, and the relative inflexibility of a new shoe, i thought it would be best to "force" his toe crease behind the seam of the cap-toe...


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

ShoeKoala said:


> The only shoe they have in a 5 last is the Strand...also in 9.5


how did the strand fit?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

ShoeKoala said:


> mrp, you think a 9d? 9e?


If your heel fits well with the D, don't go to a wider shoe, the heel will also get a bit larger.
If the width fits fine now on the shoe and it is too long try a 9D, the shoe will be shorter (your toes and the fold will move forward), the shoe will be marginally narrower.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

salgy said:


> on my shoes, i find 2 creases, the first right where the toes bend (pretty much behind the seam of the cap-toe) and another further up the vamp... since i didn't see the first crease in the OP's pictures, i am assuming (probably incorrectly) that his toe crease _is_ along the seam of the cap-toe. due to this crease needing to be along the thickest part of the shoe, and the relative inflexibility of a new shoe, i thought it would be best to "force" his toe crease behind the seam of the cap-toe...


I understand you rationale, however his toe position is closer to the back of cap than the front. My take is the fold shown is the fold immediately behind the toes.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

My Park Ave's did the same thing for a while. It was quite uncomfortable, so I feel your pain. However, there was no chance I was fitting into a 12.5 E and a 13D was FAR too narrow for me to wear (the sides of my feet were bulging the shoes out by 1/3" over the edge of the sole and I could feel the welt digging into my feet as I walked around the store). Since then, with a fair amount of break-in, they are very comfortable and that crease seems to have softened up quite a bit where it was pinching me.

EDIT: I just wanted to note that the crease was the exact same place (with regard to my feet) that ALL of my shoes crease, the PA's just happened to hit that spot a harder, sharper, whatever than my other shoes.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Just to agree with those who said that shoe is too long.

My first guess would be to go down a half-size in the D width. You might want to go down a full size, and up to E.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Same thing happened to me when I tried to get some AEs that fit me, so I didn't buy any yet.

Still unresolved.

Yeah annoying, where they pinched me was where my toes join up to my foot, approximately.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Doesn't JAB carry an AE cap toe similar to the PA but on a different last? Might give that a try.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks for all of the replies. I really appreciate it. They are going to get a 9D and 8.5E for me to try.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> Doesn't JAB carry an AE cap toe similar to the PA but on a different last? Might give that a try.


The JAB near me has zero AE shoes.


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## damon54 (Dec 12, 2007)

I do not have a foot that fits anything out of the box. Always some stretching involved in getting a fit I like.
Sounds like your fit issue is with the throat line. I frequently have this same issue.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

salgy said:


> how did the strand fit?


The strand fits great also, but it does bite into my foot when I walk, although it is not as bad as the PAs. I bought a pair and when we figure out my PA size I will try the strands in that size as well.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

I've been reluctant to spend so much on shoes that don't feel comfortable from the git-go.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

ShoeKoala said:


> The strand fits great also, *but it does bite into my foot when I walk, although it is not as bad as the PAs.*


This is actually a pretty good description of it fitting _not_-so-great!

It is not at all uncommon for men to believe they know their correct shoe size, when they in fact do not.

How many of us, in all the years of being fitted for shoes, from childhood, through adolescence and into adulthood have had the old "'x' amount of room for the big toe, so it's a good fit" drilled into our heads? For some of us that may happen to result in a good fit.... in some shoes... however feet come in a vast variety of shapes and proportions. Some have long, tapered toes, some are shorter and more squared-off in the toe, some are wider, some are very narrow... add to this the fact that the lasts that shoes are built on are also vastly different, and it's quite easy to see that "toe to end of shoe" is a woefully inadequate measure of proper fit.

Even if we all had identical feet (which we of course don't) the correct fit in a shoe with a slender, elongated toe would result in a different "toe to end of shoe" measurement than a good fit in a shoe with a blunter, rounded toe.

The most important measurements are the width of the foot, and the shoe size as dictated by location of the ball of the foot. (That will put the flex points... and thus creases... of the shoe in the proper places, as well as placing the ball of the foot at the widest part of the shoe, where it belongs.) Beyond that, it is necessary to allow adequate room for the toes (which depends on toe length and the last the shoe is built on.) and make any adjustments for the peculiarities of the particular last.

The 5 last, which the Park Avenue is built on is, unfortunately, a very peculiar last. Why in the world AE builds their most mainline business shoe on such an odd last, eludes me. For men with long, slender feet, it can be a good (and easy) fit. For anyone else, finding a good fit often involves lengthy trial and error... and sometimes seemingly a bit of voodoo.

Get another fitting done on the Brannock device. Be sure that the person doing the fitting takes the ball-of-the-foot size. (If they complain, send them to me... They will regret having done so!) With the 5 last, that's a starting point. If your feet are long and slender, try the size the Brannock gives. If your feet are of other proportions, make adjustments accordingly... and try on a variety of shoes that might be in the correct range. This may take some time and effort, but once you have found your actual, proper size, you will know it for life... which, if you plan on wearing shoes for life, is not a bad thing to know. Finding your fit on the 5 last is a bonus. AE makes some attractive shoes on that last. If you know what size will fit you comfortably, you will be able to avail yourself of those shoes.


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## Thomas Martin (Aug 12, 2011)

Based on the pictures I think that you have the right fit. I'd suggest you give these shoes some time. I had exactly the same problem with a strand but after a short break in period the leather softened and now they are really comfortable.

Edit: AE have a printable fitting guide on their website which turned out to be quite accurate for me.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> This is actually a pretty good description of it fitting _not_-so-great!


You're exactly right. I mean that it feels like it is hugging my foot when I am standing still. Clearly it is not the right size.



Checkerboard 13 said:


> Get another fitting done on the Brannock device. Be sure that the person doing the fitting takes the ball-of-the-foot size. (If they complain, send them to me... They will regret having done so!)


I'm so frustrated because I went to Nordstrom yesterday and asked them explicitly to do this. They were about to and then they transferred me to the guy who originally handled my AE sale, and he didn't want to do it. I think he is getting sick of me. I had him order the 9d and 8.5c.

One thing I was thinking, is wouldn't it be better to get a bigger size instead of a smaller size? That would push the stitching beneath the shoelaces further forward on the shoe, and push the crease further forward on the shoe? Or is my thinking totally off here?


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

ShoeKoala said:


> Or is my thinking totally off here?


Yes, it is.

The crease is where it is due to where your foot bends. The larger the shoe, the farther back on the shoe it will be.

Be clear and firm with the Nordstrom shoe dept. This is a company that prides itself on its level of service. A proper fitting for a pair of shoes is NOT too much to ask. (In fact they should be ashamed for sending you away with the pair you now have.) 
If the person who fit you originally has a problem with performing a proper fitting, move on. (From the evidence of his abilities... your shoes.. he will be doing you a favor in not attempting to fit you again.) Speak to the men's shoe manager. If he/she is unable or unwilling to assist you, speak to the store manager. Do not demand anything extraordinary. Merely seek a proper fitting.

If the store manager can not see to it that you are fit properly, there is always the option of contacting Nordstrom's corporate... or perhaps a congenial letter sent to AE, expressing your difficulties. (After all, Nordstrom is their largest retailer. As such, the product ought to be properly presented.)

Also, I'm a little puzzled as to why you had them order you a 9D and an 8.5C. 
Shoe width is not a constant. It is related to size. As size gets smaller, any given width will be slightly narrower. (For example, an 8.5D will be narrower than a 9D.) If anything, as you try smaller sizes, you're likely to need to go _up _a width.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Also, I'm a little puzzled as to why you had them order you a 9D and an 8.5C.
> Shoe width is not a constant. It is related to size. As size gets smaller, any given width will be slightly narrower. (For example, an 8.5D will be narrower than a 9D.) If anything, as you try smaller sizes, you're likely to need to go _up _a width.


I didn't actually. I had just woken up when I typed that...I had them order a 9D and an 8.5E 

Thank you so much for all the help. This has been so frustrating and you're helping a lot.

Unfortunately, Nordstrom seems to be unwilling to let any other SA help me when I go to the store. I could go over their head to the shoe manager, but I'd rather not do that unless necessary. Today I'll be going to a (non-Nordstrom) store to get my heel/arch measured.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

ShoeKoala said:


> I didn't actually. I had just woken up when I typed that...I had them order a 9D and an 8.5E
> 
> Thank you so much for all the help. This has been so frustrating and you're helping a lot.
> 
> Unfortunately, Nordstrom seems to be unwilling to let any other SA help me when I go to the store. I could go over their head to the shoe manager, but I'd rather not do that unless necessary. Today I'll be going to a (non-Nordstrom) store to get my heel/arch measured.


That makes more sense on the sizes.

I'm not sure getting measured elsewhere makes the most sense, though... unless you are buying shoes there also, and those shoes happen to be AEs on the 5 last. 
In the first place, it's not fair to use the time of a salesperson if you have no intention whatsoever of buying. Secondly, the person measuring you should be actively involved in your fitting in the particular shoe you are purchasing.

On the other hand, it is the _responsibility _of the salesperson who sold you your shoes to fit you properly. If that person is unwilling or incapable of doing so, your next best recourse is the department manager.

(And it should be the shoe department's goal to fit you properly. If it is not, then the manager is not doing his/her job very well. Were I to encounter such a case, I would certainly take the matter further up the chain.)

This store is quite foolishly risking the loss of a potential customer for life. I believe few who purchase AE shoes stop at one pair!


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks Mr. Checkerboard and all.

As far as the breaking in comment by Mr. Martin.

I just hate to gamble with $300+. Because what if I'm not even able to wear them enough to even see if they'd eventually break in?

After just a bit of wearing then I wouldn't be able to return them either.

Just seems like a lot of $$ to throw out. Ideally would like to get a comfortable "Ahhhh . . ." feeling when I try them on.

Perhaps trial and error is the only way, but even the closest AE store, 90+ miles away through lots of potential traffic, doesn't stock 13s normally, from what I understand. 

Might have to take a trip back to Wisconsin or wherever it is.

Does the Shoe Bank only have seconds, or do they have everything stocked there?


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

zzdocxx said:


> I just hate to gamble with $300+. Because what if I'm not even able to wear them enough to even see if they'd eventually break in?
> 
> After just a bit of wearing then I wouldn't be able to return them either.


Nordstrom will let you return them after wearing them. I have read a lot of posts where this happened to people and they didn't break in, though.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Hmmm. . .


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> On the other hand, it is the _responsibility _of the salesperson who sold you your shoes to fit you properly. If that person is unwilling or incapable of doing so, your next best recourse is the department manager.


Went back and insisted that they measure the arch of my foot. I could tell the guy was shocked when he did it, he kept rechecking and remeasuring...but it's true. I'm a 9.5-10 length of toes, but about an 11-11.5 as far as the arch goes. We ordered 10 and 10.5 in B and C widths.

So now I've got 8.5E, 9D, 10B&C, 10.5B&C coming. Hopefully one of them will be right.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

ShoeKoala said:


> Went back and insisted that they measure the arch of my foot. I could tell the guy was shocked when he did it, he kept rechecking and remeasuring...but it's true. I'm a 9.5-10 length of toes, but about an 11-11.5 as far as the arch goes. We ordered 10 and 10.5 in B and C widths.
> 
> So now I've got 8.5E, 9D, 10B&C, 10.5B&C coming. Hopefully one of them will be right.


You didn't happen to snap any pictures while your foot was in the Brannock device, did you?
It would be interesting to see what it shows.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

ShoeKoala said:


> Went back and insisted that they measure the arch of my foot. I could tell the guy was shocked when he did it, he kept rechecking and remeasuring...but it's true. I'm a 9.5-10 length of toes, but about an 11-11.5 as far as the arch goes. We ordered 10 and 10.5 in B and C widths.
> 
> So now I've got 8.5E, 9D, 10B&C, 10.5B&C coming. Hopefully one of them will be right.


Let's us know what the outcome is.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> You didn't happen to snap any pictures while your foot was in the Brannock device, did you?
> It would be interesting to see what it shows.


Nope, but I can take some pictures next time I'm near one.




mrp said:


> Let's us know what the outcome is.


Will do.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

There you go, same thing with me, someone finally told me my arch was 13 although I just measure out a 12 length.

But no 13s in the store.

So I hope yours works out, maybe then I'll take another stab at it.

Q. Did you hear that OJ Simpson is getting married again?

























A. He said he wanted to take another stab at it.


Sorry hope that doesn't offend anyone, it just occurred to me.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

Curious what Nordstrom will do with the shoes you return. Clearly they will be unsellable given the creasing and whatever slight wear you have caused on the sole. Does Nordstrom return them to AE, or does Nordstrom eat the cost entirely? And it's not like AE shoebank or Nordstrom Rack sells (even slightly) used shoes, so are they thrown in the trash?


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

jeffdeist said:


> Curious what Nordstrom will do with the shoes you return. Clearly they will be unsellable given the creasing and whatever slight wear you have caused on the sole. Does Nordstrom return them to AE, or does Nordstrom eat the cost entirely? And it's not like AE shoebank or Nordstrom Rack sells (even slightly) used shoes, so are they thrown in the trash?


My guess would be Nordstrom Rack. They definitely do sell used shoes.


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## TheRomanhistorian (Feb 7, 2010)

jeffdeist said:


> Curious what Nordstrom will do with the shoes you return. Clearly they will be unsellable given the creasing and whatever slight wear you have caused on the sole. Does Nordstrom return them to AE, or does Nordstrom eat the cost entirely? And it's not like AE shoebank or Nordstrom Rack sells (even slightly) used shoes, so are they thrown in the trash?


I've seen some sold at Nordstrom Rack here as 'Worn and Refurbished' and I've read that this seems common (I saw the term and came back to Ask Andy to see if it was something new or not but, apparently, some other chaps have purchased many such pairs for their collections). See this thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?47981-AE-factory-refurbished-buy-or-no-buy

I wouldn't buy well-worn 'used' shoes myself but I did see and acquire a pair of black AE Strands a fortnight ago at the Nordstrom Rack next to the flagship downtown Seattle Nordstrom's. I wasn't actually intending to purchase anything but I saw the Strands and wondered why they were $99.99 even with the odd sole colouring (I then noticed they had sanded some of the wear off the sole and half of the sole was coloured black) with the heels sanded smooth, too. There was no real creasing on either shoe and no foot imprint made inside. Honestly, it made me wonder if some chap purchased them and wore them outside once, didn't like the feel, and returned them. I purchased them right then and there. I think my walnut Strands (purchased brand new during the anniversary sale last year and worn 5 times) have seen far more wear and creasing than this 'worn and refurbished' black version.

ShoeKoala: That's one impressive spread of shoe sizing, hope you find a pair that will fit. I like the Park Avenue and the no. 5 last in general (I think it's AE's sleekest last).


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

TheRomanhistorian said:


> That's one impressive spread of shoe sizing, hope you find a pair that will fit. I like the Park Avenue and the no. 5 last in general (I think it's AE's sleekest last).


Thank you, I hope so too. I love the Park Ave and have hated just about every other balmoral cap toe I've seen (that isn't $600+.) I'm also quite fond of the Strand in both walnut and burnished brown


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Did these do that pinchy-winchy number when you were in the store?


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Orsini said:


> Did these do that pinchy-winchy number when you were in the store?


Yes, but I was assured by the salesperson that it is normal and just has to "break in."


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

ShoeKoala said:


> Yes, but I was assured by the salesperson that it is normal and just has to "break in."


You know, I seem to recall hearing that too somewhere along the line...


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Orsini said:


> You know, I seem to recall hearing that too somewhere along the line...


I can't tell if you're being facetious or not, but Allen Edmonds tells me the shoes absolutely should not be doing that. Trying on a larger size (of a different AE shoe) seems to confirm what the rep said.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

ShoeKoala said:


> ...the shoes absolutely should not be doing that...


Yes, I made that point a few days ago: if it doesn't fit in the store, don't buy it, and if the fold in the vamp bites you, it will never get better. And also, shoes don't break in very well.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks again for confirming that Orsini.

That's the rule I am going by.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

Orsini said:


> Yes, I made that point a few days ago: if it doesn't fit in the store, don't buy it, and if the fold in the vamp bites you, it will never get better. And also, shoes don't break in very well.


I've learned my lesson


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## damon54 (Dec 12, 2007)

Seems to fly somewhat in the face of the wisdom of not buying a 2nd hand shoe because it will have already been conformed to the original owners foot.

Feel some of your most worn shoes & you can confirm that eventually your foot does sink into the sole. That space is unaccounted for when you first try on a shoe but is a certain eventuality with use.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

zzdocxx said:


> Thanks again for confirming that Orsini.
> 
> That's the rule I am going by.


My pleasure. Not so much a "rule", but stuff I have read and heard from credible sources.


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## mingus2112 (Dec 6, 2011)

I had a similar experience (as in my arch and length were different) at one of the AE stores in Manhattan. She measured me FIRST. I was shocked when she told me I was a 13B as i've always bought 11 or 11.5 in D width. She brought out the 13B and they just felt too big. She told me that my arch measured 13 (which is what you should always go by first), but my toe length was right at 12. She went back and got a 12B and they seemed to fit great in the store. I haven't purchased yet, but I feel like the 12B was the right fit. In your case, it seems like you need to follow your arch. In mine, the toe length. It just goes to show that fit is king over all and that the numbers (especially on this last!) are a good starting point.

It's good that they're ordering all of these sizes. Honestly, they should have ordered them to begin with.

-James


ShoeKoala said:


> Went back and insisted that they measure the arch of my foot. I could tell the guy was shocked when he did it, he kept rechecking and remeasuring...but it's true. I'm a 9.5-10 length of toes, but about an 11-11.5 as far as the arch goes. We ordered 10 and 10.5 in B and C widths.
> 
> So now I've got 8.5E, 9D, 10B&C, 10.5B&C coming. Hopefully one of them will be right.


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## ShoeKoala (Jul 28, 2012)

mingus2112 said:


> It's good that they're ordering all of these sizes. Honestly, they should have ordered them to begin with.


No kidding. I actually had to insist that they order a bunch of sizes for me, and he did it begrudgingly. It made me feel like I was crazy. Then I had him measure my arch, and after that he stopped thinking I was just complaining for no reason. H said "Wow, you really opened my eyes," which actually made me feel a lot better about the whole thing.


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