# CALF LEATHER?



## simj (Mar 1, 2007)

Can anyone categorically say whether calf leather is from young cows or if this is just a name used?

If young, any ideas about how young they are?

TY


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

simj said:


> If young, any ideas about how young they are?
> TY


You'll be much happier if you don't know, but here's some info about calf leather:



> Calf Leather (aka Calfskin leather) is a type leather produced from the hide of juvenile domestic cattle (a calf). Calfskin gets its value due to its softness, very fine grain, and durability. Compared to the hides of older cattle, Calf Leather is finer grained, lighter in weight and more supple.
> 
> Definition from Wikipedia:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calfskin


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

I believe that the EU regulations with respect to the labelling of meat is such that calf (or veal) must be 8 months old or younger and those up to 12 months old can be described as young cow (beef). I do not know whether labelling of leather is consistent with this definition but suspect that it is not too far off.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Yes, calfskin means leather from young cattle, at least for better-quality shoes. Leather from older cattle will be too thick and too marked-up to make decent-looking shoes unless it is embossed or grain-corrected. There is some range for the age of the animals that are used for calfskin, although I'm not sure what that range is.


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

simj said:


> Can anyone categorically say whether calf leather is from young cows or if this is just a name used?
> 
> If young, any ideas about how young they are?
> 
> TY


 Calfskin is from cattle 3-4 weeks old.
Veal leather is from cattle 3-6 months.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

smji:

This is what I have in the Leather Chapter of *The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes* on an easy to use CD-Rom (do you have one yet? :icon_smile_big
*Calfskin* - a strong, supple, fine-grained leather from young cattle, a few days to a few weeks old.​


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Crownship said:


> Calfskin is from cattle 3-4 weeks old.
> Veal leather is from cattle 3-6 months.


Would anyone know to which the French "veau" designation refers?


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

Andy said:


> smji:
> 
> a few days to a few weeks old


It's enough to make one a shell cordovan convert, where the horse lives its long life before being used for our sartorial pleasure.


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## simj (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm with WELL KEPT on the semtiment. Doesn't seem right to slaughter cattle so we can get nice grain shoes.

I have just had a sample sent through of a calf skin that looks salivatingly good. Can't bring myself to order it though if this is true about the cattle age.

The leather is so good looking though I need to get a 100% confirmation that it is young cattle not to get it.

In my experience here on the forum there is a lot of knowledge, so I'm hoping I can get this 110% certainty.

*Can anyone give any ideas where i can get this confirmation?*

Thanks


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## trims (Apr 12, 2007)

They're most likely being slaughtered for our dining pleasure actually.:devil:

The skins are likely a bi-product of that industry, using all possible parts of the animal.

If that makes you feel better.:icon_smile_big:

Keep in mind, that's where a good chunk of the horn material for your horn buttons comes from also, leftover bi-products of the meat industry.


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

well-kept said:


> It's enough to make one a shell cordovan convert, where the horse lives its long life before being used for our sartorial pleasure.


There's a shell shortage. Better stick with the calf.:icon_smile_big:



simj said:


> I'm with WELL KEPT on the semtiment. Doesn't seem right to slaughter cattle so we can get nice grain shoes.
> 
> I have just had a sample sent through of a calf skin that looks salivatingly good. Can't bring myself to order it though if this is true about the cattle age.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure the calf wasn't slaughtered for it's hide only. As you said the "calf skin looks salivatingly good" I can guarantee the rest of it TASTE salivatingly good. Might as well order the shoes because somebody already ate the animal. Why let a calfs hide go to waste.:icon_smile_big:


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## trims (Apr 12, 2007)

Crownship said:


> There's a shell shortage. Better stick with the calf.:icon_smile_big:
> 
> Pretty sure the calf wasn't slaughtered for it's hide only. As you said the "calf skin looks salivatingly good" I can guarantee the rest of it TASTE salivatingly good. Might as well order the shoes because somebody already ate the animal. Why let a calfs hide go to waste.:icon_smile_big:


Anybody else getting a huge craving for osso bucco or a nice veal parm hero right now?


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

Agreed. The animals entire carcass is being used, Veal chops, scallopini, osso bucco, Shoe leather, etc.. Calf leather would certainly imply from a calf. When does a calf become a cow or cattle or steer? :icon_smile_big:


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

Tonyp said:


> Agreed. The animals entire carcass is being used, Veal chops, scallopini, osso bucco, Shoe leather, etc.. Calf leather would certainly imply from a calf. When does a calf become a cow or cattle or steer? :icon_smile_big:


Well a calf becomes a steer when you cut his man-parts off. Steer = castrated bull.


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## simj (Mar 1, 2007)

Basic economics of supply and demand. Some take the ' if I don't do it somebody else will' approach.

Seems weird to slaughter a calf for a type of food, which theres loads of without veal, and because of a nice type of leather, which theres loads of also. 

But hey bolt it between the eyes.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

trims said:


> They're most likely being slaughtered for our dining pleasure actually.:devil:
> 
> The skins are likely a bi-product of that industry, using all possible parts of the animal.
> 
> ...


Too true. Whilst I don't like the idea of such young animals being slaughtered it is not the leather industry that is doing this - it just benefits from the meat industry. This is why the price of calf has gone up so much because less people are eating meat. It is a myth , even lie, put about by the animal rights extremists that the shoe industry slaughters calves for their leather.

So, even if we didn't buy calf leather shoes, the poor animals would be slaughtered anyway.

This discussion is making me rethink my refusal to eat veal - I think I am a hypocrite because I do buy calf leather shoes:crazy:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Reading this thread is sucking the fun right out of wearing my Luchesse "baby-calf" western boots. However, the feel of those boots on the foot is truly incredible! While possibly attributable to the tanning process, the leather really is as smooth and soft as a baby's...!


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Reading this thread is sucking the fun right out of wearing my Luchesse "baby-calf" western boots. However, the feel of those boots on the foot is truly incredible! While possibly attributable to the tanning process, the leather really is as smooth and soft as a baby's...!


For some reason I'm having a hard time believing the lack of fun lasted for very long.
I'm sure as soon as you opened your closet door full of shoes you were thankful for everyone of those cattle that had to give up a life and a future and mom and running, playing and green grass and (sniff..).
Hey I felt bad for a second too. I think I'll just look over my shoulder into my shoe wardrobe and get that happy feeling all over again.:icon_smile_big:


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Leather man said:


> Too true. Whilst I don't like the idea of such young animals being slaughtered it is not the leather industry that is doing this - it just benefits from the meat industry. This is why the price of calf has gone up so much because less people are eating meat. It is a myth , even lie, put about by the animal rights extremists that the shoe industry slaughters calves for their leather.
> 
> So, even if we didn't buy calf leather shoes, the poor animals would be slaughtered anyway.
> 
> This discussion is making me rethink my refusal to eat veal - I think I am a hypocrite because I do buy calf leather shoes:crazy:


A bit off-topic, but I had a starter the other day that made my b******s tingle: a suckling veal (veau élévée sous la mère), which I suppose was young enough for its former skin to qualify as calfskin... Beautiful on the outside, delicious on the inside.:icon_smile_big:

Where did you hear that meat consumption has decreased? Just curious since it seems to contradict claims that a not insignificant portion of the world's increase in CO2 emission is due to the growing global demand for meat and therefore increase in the number of farmed animals such as cattle. (I recently read that the price of rat meat in Cambodia has quadrupled and that dometic and export demand (from neighbouring Vietnam) has not been impacted by the price hike...:icon_pale

Do you eat eggs?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Crownship said:


> For some reason I'm having a hard time believing the lack of fun lasted for very long.
> I'm sure as soon as you opened your closet door full of shoes you were thankful for everyone of those cattle that had to give up a life and a future and mom and running, playing and green grass and (sniff..).
> Hey I felt bad for a second too. I think I'll just look over my shoulder into my shoe wardrobe and get that happy feeling all over again.:icon_smile_big:


LOL! You have me there...I got over that spasm of conscience pretty quickly, realizing the best way I could honor the sacrifices made my those calves, would be to wear as many pairs of the shoes that resulted, as possible!


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

misterdonuts said:


> A bit off-topic, but I had a starter the other day that made my b******s tingle: a suckling veal (veau élévée sous la mère), which I suppose was young enough for its former skin to qualify as calfskin... Beautiful on the outside, delicious on the inside.:icon_smile_big:
> 
> Where did you hear that meat consumption has decreased? Just curious since it seems to contradict claims that a not insignificant portion of the world's increase in CO2 emission is due to the growing global demand for meat and therefore increase in the number of farmed animals such as cattle. (I recently read that the price of rat meat in Cambodia has quadrupled and that dometic and export demand (from neighbouring Vietnam) has not been impacted by the price hike...:icon_pale
> 
> Do you eat eggs?


Yes and I do eat meat in general. I heard it from numerous leather buyers! The increase in consumption in China and India is too new, I guess to affect the leather goods market - and I don't know if the tanneries there are up to scratch - I know there's been a lot in the news about how appalling the tanneries are in India and how much environmental destruction to rivers they are causing.

By the way - the french phrase for "suckling calf" is a heck of a mouthful ( no pun intended!) isn't it - "calf stood up under the mother!"

Ah well, now to sear my conscience as I choose what shoes to wear for the morrow!


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Leather man said:


> Yes and I do eat meat in general. I heard it from numerous leather buyers! The increase in consumption in China and India is too new, I guess to affect the leather goods market - and I don't know if the tanneries there are up to scratch - I know there's been a lot in the news about how appalling the tanneries are in India and how much environmental destruction to rivers they are causing.
> 
> By the way - the french phrase for "suckling calf" is a heck of a mouthful ( no pun intended!) isn't it - "calf stood up under the mother!"
> 
> Ah well, now to sear my conscience as I choose what shoes to wear for the morrow!


That's it, then! I'm eating veal at every meal from now on!:icon_smile_big:


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

misterdonuts said:


> (I recently read that the price of rat meat in Cambodia has quadrupled and that dometic and export demand (from neighbouring Vietnam) has not been impacted by the price hike...:icon_pale


I can't help the feeling that this bit of wisdom will somehow figure in a future thread regarding the source of Brooks Brothers' Peal & Co. shoes.


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## simj (Mar 1, 2007)

Who cares if they're slaughtered for veal or leather; it's likely both. Fact is if no one bought they would be left with a pile of corpes' which no doubt cost a few quid to produce for zero return. If the farmer was a very rich psycho they may just carry on for kicks, to which there's a good case to bolt him between the eyes.

If the only 'reason' for sustaining this industry is because it looks and tastes nice then this seems like a case of nancy dan as opposed to fancy dan. Is it our right to slaughter anything for our pleasure?


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

simj said:


> Who cares if they're slaughtered for veal or leather; it's likely both. Fact is if no one bought they would be left with a pile of corpes' which no doubt cost a few quid to produce for zero return. If the farmer was a very rich psycho they may just carry on for kicks, to which there's a good case to bolt him between the eyes.
> 
> If the only 'reason' for sustaining this industry is because it looks and tastes nice then this seems like a case of nancy dan as opposed to fancy dan. Is it our right to slaughter anything for our pleasure?


Your earlier point - that it doesn't seem right to slaughter cattle so we can have nice shoes - the answer is we do not.

As I have said already , the leather industry is a by-product of the meat industry. If calves were not slaughtered for meat there would be no calf leather shoes - only yearling or cow hide. This may be hard to believe but it is true.

I think the only honest position to take if one object fo calf skin is to go vegetarian - which of course has integrity. One big reason calves are slaughtered is that there is no need for so many bull calves - for obvious reasons - do away with slaughtering them and you destroy the dairy and meat industry.


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

Leather man said:


> - do away with slaughtering them and you destroy the dairy and meat industry.


Some years ago the killing of baby seals - for their fur - was being debated in Canada. One of the arguments advanced for allowing the hunt, in which the babies were clubbed to death, was that doing away with it would put the hunters (and clubbers) out of work.

To return to the original question, wearing calf is wearing the skin of a very new life, killed for your debatable needs. And while I made an offhand comment about the lifespan of horses who provide shell cordovan, it does offer a measure of solace. A few years ago I used the argument to persuade my brother to buy a pair of Alden shells. I wear mine more than he wears his, but most times when he looks at my feet, he remembers and says "Are those the shoes where they don't kill the horse?". The essential if not literal answer is 'yes'.


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## simj (Mar 1, 2007)

You won;t do away with the dairy industry by not slaughtering calves. People will still want to eat meat, but maybe will question the animals right to a certain amount of life outside of ouR interest. To state that leather is a by product of meat is to assuage your own view. The industry from leather os no doubt substantial enough that if demand waned for meat the demand for leather would sustain the industry for some time to come.

I personally don't mind wearing leather or eating meat, though I prefer organically farmed. I don't think meat eating is immoral though I do think the animal should be given some kind of life and care. When we benefit so much by them I think the least we can do is to treat them decently and allow them something resembling a life, even if it's to chew the cud and moo at the passing traffic.


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

simj said:


> even if it's to chew the cud and moo at the passing traffic.


Chewing the cud and mooing at passing traffic seems a much more honorable way to spend a life than the ways in which some humans spend theirs. At a minimum, it does no harm to others.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

I have a feeling (though I am not sure) that most of the calfs that are slaughtered are male and would be slaughtered no matter what. Not that many people eat veal and there are A LOT of calfs born to replenish all the beef we eat. There is just no need for a lot of boy cattle - you need a lot of cows for milk that after 3 or so years become burgers. Sure you need some boys to make more cows and some boys to become prime meat but go to a stock yard and you won't see a lot of horns. The boys are going to be slaughtered - they might as well become a nice pair of shoes or a belt.

I have a male snake and I constatly threaten him that I will turn him into a belt or a pair of shoes if he doesn't shape up :icon_smile_big:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

As I sit here, so early on a Sunday morning, wearing a pair of RM William's Craftsman boots, crafted from "Yearling" hides, and reflect on the postings in this thread, I must ask myself (and others!), wouldn't this world of ours be a much better place if we showed as much compassion for our fellow man, as we seem to show for the critters we share this planet with!


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

well-kept said:


> Some years ago the killing of baby seals - for their fur - was being debated in Canada. One of the arguments advanced for allowing the hunt, in which the babies were clubbed to death, was that doing away with it would put the hunters (and clubbers) out of work.
> 
> To return to the original question, wearing calf is wearing the skin of a very new life, killed for your debatable needs. And while I made an offhand comment about the lifespan of horses who provide shell cordovan, it does offer a measure of solace. A few years ago I used the argument to persuade my brother to buy a pair of Alden shells. I wear mine more than he wears his, but most times when he looks at my feet, he remembers and says "Are those the shoes where they don't kill the horse?". The essential if not literal answer is 'yes'.


The analogy is totally irrelevant - seals are wild animals cattle are farmed animals .


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

eagle2250 said:


> As I sit here, so early on a Sunday morning, wearing a pair of RM William's Craftsman boots, crafted from "Yearling" hides, and reflect on the postings in this thread, I must ask myself (and others!), wouldn't this world of ours be a much better place if we showed as much compassion for our fellow man, as we seem to show for the critters we share this planet with!


Amen!


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Stringfellow said:


> I have a feeling (though I am not sure) that most of the calfs that are slaughtered are male and would be slaughtered no matter what. Not that many people eat veal and there are A LOT of calfs born to replenish all the beef we eat. There is just no need for a lot of boy cattle - you need a lot of cows for milk that after 3 or so years become burgers. Sure you need some boys to make more cows and some boys to become prime meat but go to a stock yard and you won't see a lot of horns. The boys are going to be slaughtered - they might as well become a nice pair of shoes or a belt.
> 
> I have a male snake and I constatly threaten him that I will turn him into a belt or a pair of shoes if he doesn't shape up :icon_smile_big:


My point precisely and this is why there would be no dairy industry if male calves were not slaughtered - it is not nice, I agree, but there is no need for most of them - so they are used for meat - their hides being used as a by-product of the meat industry. Interesting how much phony truth is thrown around in this discussion and by the animal rights lobby in general.

Force farmers to rear all bull calves and they will go out of business.


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## simj (Mar 1, 2007)

Seems a little bleak stringfellow, though maybe true. It's unlikely that the farming industry is dependent on male calf's being slaughtered, although I understand the idea towards milk farming. I would say the calfs are a casulaty rather than a cause. Surely there must be a farming technique to choose the cow sex; I find it very hard to believe there isn't, as we have one for people so there must be a way for farmers. Without knowing, I would say there is.

Eagle - good point, particularly for the UK a tad, though we can at least move on and our lives not ended.


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

Leather man said:


> The analogy is totally irrelevant - seals are wild animals cattle are farmed animals .


A young life is a young life, in the presence or absence of fences.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

I agree. I bought a pair of baby seal skin gloves in Canada a couple of years ago. They do exactly what's written on the tin: keeps me warm and is waterproof. Perfect for making a snowman.


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## simj (Mar 1, 2007)

Maybe the reason for saying cretinous comments is to get a reaction so by responding maybe you are giving the commenter what they are seeking but there you go. 

Seal skin gloves .......now THAT is cretinous.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

well-kept said:


> A young life is a young life, in the presence or absence of fences.


That is another argument altogether - and in its own way a valid one if you are a vegetarian. If you are a vegetarian I respect you and your choices. If you are not a vegetarian then your reasoning is fatally flawed because if you apply your view that no young life should be taken then as I and another have pointed out above, farming animals will have to come to an end - you may feel that would be a good thing, I don't - as long as the animals are farmed humanely - because of this I only eat organic , free range meat - and so I eat much less meat than I once did as this kind is so expensive. This is how I put my principles into practice but I am sure I am still guilty of hypocrisy somehow - I think we all are to one degree or another.

This thread has been taken into The Exchange territory I think - my apologies if that is down to me - I will stop contributing to this now.


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

well-kept said:


> A young life is a young life, in the presence or absence of fences.


Young, Old, whatever.


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## simj (Mar 1, 2007)

petro said:


> Young, Old, whatever.


You bolt it, I'll eat and wear it. Don't mean nuffin' eh Petro.


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## UK2004 (Jan 13, 2007)

Are there any nice shoes that are not calf skin, it seems whether looking at Ferragamo, Moreschi, Churches, Trickers, New and Lingwood etc all the major shoes I can think of only offer calf leather, personally I want to avoid it very much but who does nice shoes made out of an older cow?


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