# British Warm



## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Hi guys,

I'm in the market for British warm or a heavy warm overcoat that is double breasted. I'd rather not do a camel colour, if possible. I was going to get one from O'Connell's or Crombie, but I do not know much about the companies.

Does anyone have any suggestions or experience? Mucho appreciate the expertise.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

The true British warm is now quite a rare find, at least in England. But it was always the colour shown here; often an indication of a military background (even worn as uniform, in some regiments). Crombie have a great reputation here.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

I second Crombie, they've always had a reputation of making the best quality heavy cloth for overcoats and such. I have nothing tailored by them, but I do have a full length, mid-grey, double-breasted coat in their heaviest cloth (no longer produced). Simply wonderful and very warm indeed.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

I have British Warm in Crombie cloth, but Crombie do not offer British Warms any more. You would need to get one from a military tailor.

Anyway, OP does not really want a British Warm because he does not like the colour.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)




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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Yes a favourite of wardrobe departments to indicate pompous, ageing, middle class man from Guildford in TV situation comedies.

It used to be a 'Cold War' garment in films before that. Gordon Jackson-types, The Spy Who Came In From The Cold, Major Dalby in the Ipcress File(I don't think he actually wore one but his sort usually did)


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Now the hipsters are making them! Soon to be seen all over Hoxton.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

Kingstonian said:


> Now the hipsters are making them! Soon to be seen all over Hoxton.


I gather this was a special order for Selfridges which quickly sold out.

I picked up a near perfect Moss Bros British Warm last year on Ebay for £20 odd. As I get older I find myself re-creating great sartorial memories of my youth - in this case the officer i/c CCF at school.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

The British Warm is a nice style, but camel colour just never looks good on me...unless it is a darker shade, and the one at O'Connell's is a taupe of the most, in my eyes, hideous variety. Plus, I just think a navy is dashing. Why is this style not popular?


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Trimmer said:


> I gather this was a special order for Selfridges which quickly sold out.
> 
> I picked up a near perfect Moss Bros British Warm last year on Ebay for £20 odd. As I get older I find myself re-creating great sartorial memories of my youth - in this case the officer i/c CCF at school.


I do, too. In my case, the era was 1955-1965, the height of the Ivy Style, the basis of the Trad look.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Kingstonian said:


> Now the hipsters are making them! Soon to be seen all over Hoxton.


Interesting videos. Thanks for the link. I notice they offer a "tuxedo" jacket rather than a dinner jacket. Have you an idea why they might use a US term?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Langham said:


> The true British warm is now quite a rare find, at least in England. But it was always the colour shown here; often an indication of a military background (even worn as uniform, in some regiments). Crombie have a great reputation here.


As a point of information, over what clothing are they worn in the UK?


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

arkirshner said:


> As a point of information, over what clothing are they worn in the UK?


You rarely see British Warms nowadays - and haven't for a long time.

As I am not ex-military I wear mine with caution (especially today). I would do so usually on very cold days and over smart clothes. I wouldn't wear it casually.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Kingstonian said:


> Yes a favourite of wardrobe departments to indicate pompous, ageing, middle class man from Guildford in TV situation comedies.


The mention of the British warm coat, made me think of Captain Peacock.



Kingstonian said:


> It used to be a 'Cold War' garment in films before that. Gordon Jackson-types, The Spy Who Came In From The Cold,* Major Dalby in the Ipcress File(I don't think he actually wore one but his sort usually did)*


I'm sure there was also Colonel Ross as well, again from the Len Deighton "Harry Palmer / IPCRESS) movies.

My father had a British warm coat sometime in the 80s, he would wear it to church sometimes. Although he wasn't really pompous, nor middle class, and wasn't a Major, Colonel or Captain.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

Watch the BBC's John Sergeant in British Warm being pushed around in the last few days of Thatcher rule in 1990:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11812509


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

arkirshner said:


> As a point of information, over what clothing are they worn in the UK?


In its original form, over a military tunic. Post-war, it would be worn as an overcoat, over a suit. Now (supposing one had one) it would not necessarily have to be over a suit - I would conjecture it might be worn in a quite casual way, in fact, but over something such as a heavy sweater. Like wearing a covert coat to a country pub perhaps.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Trimmer said:


> As I get older I find myself re-creating great sartorial memories of my youth - in this case the officer i/c CCF at school.


Me too.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

arkirshner said:


> Interesting videos. Thanks for the link. I notice they offer a "tuxedo" jacket rather than a dinner jacket. Have you an idea why they might use a US term?


Because they are hipsters.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

Just watched the wreath-laying at the Cenotaph on the box and only spotted two British Warms.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Trimmer said:


> View attachment 5780
> 
> 
> Watch the BBC's John Sergeant in British Warm being pushed around in the last few days of Thatcher rule in 1990:
> ...


Trimmer, thank you for finding and posting this historic link. Mike and Langham, thank you for your responses. I bought one of US manufacture in the late 80s and wore it over sportcoats. I am sorry to hear it is now rarely seen.Thanks to your responses this winter I shall expand its use, especially as I do not mind being thought of as mildly anachronistic.

Regards,

Alan


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

The military/police greatcoat is still a better option as it doesn't have the civil service, MI6, middle management etc. stigma that K mentuioned. Instead it is a military/police coat. It's longer, heavier and warmer. And was last seen as a fashion item by musicos and hippies in the 70s.
I still wear my 1950s police greatcoat.

Tip: if it isn't double-breasted with a minimum of eight (2 x 4) buttons it isn't a great coat. Most greatcoats had 8 or 10 buttons, some even had 12 and 14, with the top 2 rows being non-functional.

If it only has 6 buttons it usually isn't a greatcoat, then it is either a peacoat or a Britishwarm or something else. Greatcoats are also full length i.e. mid calf or longer. Again, if it only comes to the knees or even higher it isn't a greatcoat.

WWII RAF 8 button greatcoat
https://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/dralaneardley/RAFGreatcoat.jpg

British Army 10B greatcoat
https://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/images/product/main/GREAT-COAT-1950.jpg

German Naval 12B 
https://imagehost.epier.com/119922/german navy great coat 001.JPG

The single breasted, closed collar, lapelless coat that the British foot guards wear, although often referred to as a greatcoat actually isn't. For starters it is much thinner and lighter than a greatcoat. What it is actually is the No.1 uniform overcoat.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> The military/police greatcoat is still a better option as it doesn't have the civil service, MI6, middle management etc. stigma that K mentuioned. Instead it is a military/police coat. It's longer, heavier and warmer. And was last seen as a fashion item by musicos and hippies in the 70s.
> I still wear my 1950s police greatcoat.


In the distant past I too owned a couple of military greatcoats - one RAF, the other an unusual black Civil Defence one. Their chief drawbacks were their enormous weight, and the fact that their hard-to-replace buttons fell off constantly. I admire the greatcoat worn as part of a military uniform, but I would struggle to imagine anyone wearing one on civvy-street without appearing somehow out of place and slightly odd, if not pseudy and/or down and out. The British warm is a more practical and usable option, in my opinion.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Ivanov said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm in the market for British warm or a heavy warm overcoat that is double breasted. I'd rather not do a camel colour, if possible. I was going to get one from O'Connell's or Crombie, but I do not know much about the companies.
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions or experience? Mucho appreciate the expertise.


I have not seen a British Warm in ages. It used to be a staple in RTW menswear. I cannot think of any NYC store which offers one in RTW.

O'Connell's in Buffalo is a good choice, and it may be the only choice.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Langham said:


> In the distant past I too owned a couple of military greatcoats - one RAF, the other an unusual black Civil Defence one. Their chief drawbacks were their enormous weight, and the fact that their hard-to-replace buttons fell off constantly.


Useful for students during the Winters of 1970s as an additional blanket. Saved putting more coins in the meter. Too hippy for me but if you changed all the metal buttons it could work as a non-student garment.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

son of brummell said:


> I have not seen a British Warm in ages. It used to be a staple in RTW menswear. I cannot think of any NYC store which offers one in RTW.
> 
> O'Connell's in Buffalo is a good choice, and it may be the only choice.


Especially as New and Lingwood seem to have dropped their's.

The lamented Baron of Piccadilly was the last place I remember seeing a reasonably priced one in London.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Trimmer said:


> The lamented Baron of Piccadilly was the last place I remember seeing a reasonably priced one in London.


Cheaply priced one if I remember correctly. Under £200 in the side window before they closed down. Strange shop.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

Kingstonian said:


> Cheaply priced one if I remember correctly. Under £200 in the side window before they closed down. Strange shop.


In fact possibly the inspiration for:


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## Pechorin77 (Dec 21, 2006)

I had actually asked Barry Goldsmith at Paul Stuart (the former president of Burberry) where you could find one these days. His replied that they aren't made anymore for two reasons. One, the cloth of the traditional weight isn't woven anymore. And two, that manufacturers didn't want to make them because you needed special heavy-weight needles, etc. to tailor them properly and it became too much work for them to invest in. Quite unfortunate. 

I keep checking eBay, when I remember to, for one in my size.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Ahh...thank you for the explanation


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Pechorin77 said:


> I had actually asked Barry Goldsmith at Paul Stuart (the former president of Burberry) where you could find one these days. His replied that they aren't made anymore for two reasons. One, the cloth of the traditional weight isn't woven anymore. And two, that manufacturers didn't want to make them because you needed special heavy-weight needles, etc. to tailor them properly and it became too much work for them to invest in. Quite unfortunate.
> 
> I keep checking eBay, when I remember to, for one in my size.


I suspect fashions change and demand was not there. Presumably officers get them made up at military tailors if they want one.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Pechorin77 said:


> I had actually asked Barry Goldsmith at Paul Stuart (the former president of Burberry) where you could find one these days. His replied that they aren't made anymore for two reasons. One, the cloth of the traditional weight isn't woven anymore. And two, that manufacturers didn't want to make them because you needed special heavy-weight needles, etc. to tailor them properly and it became too much work for them to invest in. Quite unfortunate.
> 
> I keep checking eBay, when I remember to, for one in my size.


A feeble excuse. The weavers will weave whatever they can sell. Taken to its logical conclusion, I worry about what we will have to wear in 10 years' time.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Demand + economics is a powerful reason. I'm sure there is some demand but certainly not enough to justify the costs a manufacturer would have to incur. 

In ten year's time we will all be dressed in potato sacks, and for the better!


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Langham said:


> A feeble excuse. The weavers will weave whatever they can sell. Taken to its logical conclusion, I worry about what we will have to wear in 10 years' time.


I wonder as well. I look to what I see here in Asia, as to what others might wear in a few years time.

Times change, most British gentlemen just don't wear bowler hats these days either.

If memory serves, think my father bought his British Warm from Debenhams or British Home Stores (BHS) in the early 80s. Can't imagine those stores selling that type of coat now though.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Trimmer said:


> In fact possibly the inspiration for:
> 
> View attachment 5785


Probably why the shop closed down.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

MikeDT said:


> I look to what I see here in Asia, as to what others might wear in a few years time.


Cheap imitations?


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Langham said:


> Cheap imitations?


Might be cheap imitations at the moment, but it's what you might see coming in Brooks Brothers fashion in next year or so.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Pechorin77 said:


> I had actually asked Barry Goldsmith at Paul Stuart (the former president of Burberry) where you could find one these days. His replied that they aren't made anymore for two reasons. One, the cloth of the traditional weight isn't woven anymore. And two, that manufacturers didn't want to make them because you needed special heavy-weight needles, etc. to tailor them properly and it became too much work for them to invest in. Quite unfortunate. * * *


They have become rarer than bowler hats.

Indeed, due to such rarity, a British warm would make a most unique coat and fashion statement. It could be due for a revival since it has been away so long.

I could just see all the fashionistas of the Bergdorf-Barneys neighborhood ask "gee, what is that?"


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## sonora1870 (Sep 8, 2012)

Probably not a cheap one, but D'Avenza does it.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

Mine is vintage Marks & Spencer; definitely can't imagine them offering one now! I wear it to the office over a suit, with a brown or grey hat.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I have just been gifted a vintage British warm by one of the fine members of this forum, I shall not embarrass him by mentioning any names but he knows how grateful I am. 

It is a magnificent coat, dashing (commanding, even) in appearance and proof against the severest drop of temperature. Full length, very heavy and thickly lined with wool throughout, only the sleeves and shoulders are lined in Bemberg (or similar, I'm not an expert in this). Once I have had the (working button cuff) sleeves slightly shortened it will doubtless be making an appearance on the WAYWT thread.


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## le.gentleman (Dec 30, 2004)

Langham said:


> The true British warm is now quite a rare find, at least in England. But it was always the colour shown here; often an indication of a military background (even worn as uniform, in some regiments). Crombie have a great reputation here.


Langham, please be so kind to link back to the source if you use our pictures.
This was taken from our guide about the British Warm here: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/british-warm/


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

le.gentleman said:


> Langham, please be so kind to link back to the source if you use our pictures.
> This was taken from our guide about the British Warm here: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/british-warm/


Indeed - my apologies for not doing so.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

le.gentleman said:


> Langham, please be so kind to link back to the source if you use our pictures.
> This was taken from our guide about the British Warm here: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/british-warm/


Isn't the link 'in' the picture?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> Isn't the link 'in' the picture?


Do you mean that large heraldic motif with the legend 'GentlemansGazette.com' emblazoned beneath it? Indeed, it appears to be a reasonable indicator of provenance to me. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

le.gentleman said:


> Langham, please be so kind to link back to the source if you use our pictures.
> This was taken from our guide about the British Warm here: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/british-warm/


No, no, no...Let me help. I think this would have been better:

Mr. Langham, thank you very much for using a picture from our website (https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/british-warm). In addition to the review of the wonderful British Warm shown here (additional pics with details may be found at our website), we review a number of other clothing and associated items that might appeal to the members of this forum. Our website was founded in 2010 and is devoted to in-depth coverage of classic mens style.

As a member of "Ask Andy", I invite all of my fellow members to visit our site at https://www.gentlemansgazette.com, look around, and tell us what you think.

Kind regards and, Mr Langham, thank you again for using our picture (which may be found at https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/british-warm).


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Langham said:


> Indeed - my apologies for not doing so.


Clearly, the nom de plume of "le.gentleman" is meant to be ironic.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Regrettably, it appears that New & Lingwood no longer carries them, though that may be a seasonal issue? No matter in my case. I am hard pressed to imagine when the SoCal weather would demand so formidably warm a garment. But it sure looks great!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

UK members with a 44 chest, this is closing on ebay in less than 24 hours. Currently still at the starting price of £19.99.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Good example. Not another moth-eaten one from the seller Hogspear.

I would want measurements pit-to-pit though. Some sellers would mistakenly describe 22 pit-to-pit as 44.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

It's a nice-looking example, although I think I desire the shirt more at the moment! Le-gentleman is a nice chap in my experience, writes well even though English is not his first language, and is punctilious in his own handling and crediting of images, again, in my experience.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Kingstonian said:


> Good example. Not another moth-eaten one from the seller Hogspear.
> 
> I would want measurements pit-to-pit though. Some sellers would mistakenly describe 22 pit-to-pit as 44.


You were right! It *is* a 22 pit to pit. That's my size. And guess what? It's my coat now, for a mere £19.99! :icon_smile:

Thanks Kingy, I truly appreciate the benefit of your insight on this.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Score!!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Oldsarge said:


> Score!!


I know! :icon_smile_big:

I've got 2 now, but I just adore the style and couldn't resist it at that price. :redface: I'll weigh up which one I like best and use the other for country walks, that type of thing.


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## Ματθαῖος (Jun 17, 2011)

Shaver said:


> You were right! It *is* a 22 pit to pit. That's my size. And guess what? It's my coat now, for a mere £19.99! :icon_smile:


Congratulations!

Out of curiosity, what size is a 22" pit to pit measurement?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Ματθαῖος said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> Out of curiosity, what size is a 22" pit to pit measurement?


I'm a 38 in jackets and so 22 pit to pit (being that which fits me in overcoats) will be a 38 too - but obviously overcoat sizes are larger to compensate for the wearing of jackets underneath.


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## Ματθαῖος (Jun 17, 2011)

Shaver said:


> I'm a 38 in jackets and so 22 pit to pit (being that which fits me in overcoats) will be a 38 too - but obviously overcoat sizes are larger to compensate for the wearing of jackets underneath.


Thank you!


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Kingstonian said:


> Good example. Not another moth-eaten one from the seller Hogspear.


Hogspear has been a source of bug-eyed curiosity to me for some time. I've never bought from him, but I doubt whether he is the only ebay vendor selling moth-eaten relics.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Langham said:


> Hogspear has been a source of bug-eyed curiosity to me for some time. I've never bought from him, but I doubt whether he is the only ebay vendor selling moth-eaten relics.


His is all military stuff - possibly for re-enactors or film wardrobes.


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## softcollar (Oct 21, 2013)

The photo of "Capt Peacock" and companion appears to have been inverted left to right.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Made to measure

https://www.michaeljaytailoring.com/the-british-warm.html#.Vrh-zPDfWrU


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