# Paul Grangaard on Reddit



## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

FYI, Paul's taking questions on Reddit right now:

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https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ioi3u


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

A couple of interesting comments so far:

"We have three new lasts coming next year. There'll be fits more like the 606 but with different toe shapes and higher insteps to choose from"

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https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ioi3u/_/cl3zms7

"Ecco did a great job with lighterweight, comfortable shoes many years ago and they're now a $2B company. (Styling is a matter of taste.) Early next year we're coming out with shoes that look great but are 40% lighter and have removabale insoles like running shoes. They're going to be fantastic ... and they're overdue."

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https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ioi3u/_/cl40juw


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

In case anyone wondered about their flip-flops:

"We buy them from a flip flop maker in Hawaii and co-brand them for sale in our own stores and online (not at wholesale). I have a couple pair I wear all summer. They're incredibly well made and comfortable. High quality construction and materials (we screened them heaviliy before putting our name on them)."

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https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ioi3u/_/cl40pxu


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Fred G. Unn said:


> A couple of interesting comments so far:
> 
> "Ecco did a great job with lighterweight, comfortable shoes many years ago and they're now a $2B company. (Styling is a matter of taste.) Early next year we're coming out with shoes that look great but are 40% lighter and have removabale insoles like running shoes. They're going to be fantastic ... and they're overdue."
> 
> ...


This is horrible news. 40% lighter? Removable insoles?

They aught to be looking at Carmina or Loake, instead they are looking at Ecco??????


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Bjorn said:


> This is horrible news. 40% lighter? Removable insoles?
> 
> They aught to be looking at Carmina or Loake, instead they are looking at Ecco??????


New private equity group calling the shots = drive top line gowth by bringing (disposable/higher margin) footwear to the mass market.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

FLCracka said:


> New private equity group calling the shots = drive top line gowth by bringing (disposable/higher margin) footwear to the mass market.


I think that's it exactly. And not just footwear either. They've changed their slogan from "The Great American Shoe Company" to "An American Original" and have started diversifying into clothing. I'm not sure exactly what they are envisioning for the direction of the company, but Carmina or C&J ain't it.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Another interesting point - I don't expect Paul to respond to everything, and obviously a lack of a response isn't the same thing as a confirmation, but one poster stated "I think with the exception of shell cordovan, the Independence line, and made-to-orders, all clicking occurs in the DR," and another added "Clicking and stitching together of the uppers takes place in the DR" and he didn't refute it.

His response to the Alden question was interesting too:

"Alden makes great shoes. We use most of the same suppliers and manufacturing methods. We are indeed stretching our product line more and experimenting. Some of our experiments have been hugely successful -- the McTavish wingtip in cowhide with a natural sidewall, the Neumoks as an uncontructed wingtip with no lining, our Bourbon and other brown leather introductions, the Boulder that put us into the all-weather moccasin business for the first time as the Dalton put us in lace-up dress boots for the first time. Others have tanked. I'm a huge believer that you don't get better skiing unless you occasionally take a fall. There are a few shoes I'd like to take back, and there are others I thought wouldn't make it that have. What one AE Man finds too far out there can attract a whole new customer. Our current Strandmok with it's ChromeXL leather and Dainite sole got huge criticism on StyleForum, and it's one of our bestselling introductions for this fall. As the Germans used to tell me -- Um Geschmack laesst sich nicht streiten (there's no arguing about taste)."

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https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ioi3u/_/cl41arr


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

They're becoming a fashion and apparel label with an emphasis on footwear. 

There are a few of their products that I still like and when discounted, hard to beat.

I think for my future dress shoe purchases I will look hard at Carmina and some of the British houses.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

I'm one of Allen Edmonds biggest fans. But let's face it, if you're looking to grow a product or brand to the widest possible market you're going to have to go lower and lower, (price point wise) to expand your market.

Alden and Allen Edmonds make shoes, other that that they are worlds apart in their market and business philosophy.

SG_67: You're spot in terms of where Allen Edmonds is heading. Very few corporate entities with shareholders, (verses family businesses) are content with making a outstanding product without compromising quality and being content with a sustainable return.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

FLCracka said:


> New private equity group calling the shots = drive top line gowth by bringing (disposable/higher margin) footwear to the mass market.


The *exact* path Florsheim followed,....


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

127.72 MHz said:


> I'm one of Allen Edmonds biggest fans. But let's face it, if you're looking to grow a product or brand to the widest possible market you're going to have to go lower and lower, (price point wise) to expand your market.
> 
> Alden and Allen Edmonds make shoes, other that that they are worlds apart in their market and business philosophy.
> 
> SG_67: You're spot in terms of where Allen Edmonds is heading. Very few corporate entities with shareholders, (verses family businesses) are content with making a outstanding product without compromising quality and being content with a sustainable return.


With respect to their offerings as well, I think they just make too many different shoes. While they still have their core identity, at least for now, the range both stylistic and qualitative is too broad and that identity is becoming lost.

When I walk into an AE store there doesn't seem to be a cohesive theme.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

It's like it just had to be.

I see a day where Allen Edmonds will have $59.- to $99.99 shoes, for everyone.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

As long as they keep their core collection of shoes, I'm not complaining.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

I read through his reddit and he did make some other more promising remarks. There are church's sport shoes. I still like their other, good, shoes...


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Jovan said:


> As long as they keep their core collection of shoes, I'm not complaining.


As long as,....


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

There's also a short wing blucher coming in the winter!

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https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ioi3u/_/cl3zr7s


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

All in all, good show, IMO.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> As long as,....


You're a very negative person, you realize that?


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Within the context of how well you know me, yes.

Some call me pragmatic.

On a positive note, I don't believe you will be able to find a bigger fan of Allen Edmonds.

In terms of this thread I don't believe you'll have to look too deep to find a negative connotation from several other members.

But then I think I recall you asking members to keep on topic when you've felt personal comments were overshadowing a thread,....Maybe I'm wrong.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> This is horrible news. 40% lighter? Removable insoles?
> 
> They aught to be looking at Carmina or Loake, instead they are looking at Ecco??????


Well, some of us have messed up feet and benefit from shoes with flexible soles and space for orthotics...

It just depends on how they build them. AE had a full line of 270 degree welted orthotic shoes that were relatively lightweight and some of them were great (the Winter Park, especially). However, the last was imperfect and there were some improvements that could have been made.

OTOH, he could just be referring to an expansion of the AE by Allen Edmonds line, which are all cemented junk.

I would be really happy if they were expanding the orthotic line, or making more attractive comfort shoes on good lasts with good construction methods. It would be great if they brought back the Parliament (basically the Strand with a removable insole and a very thin, very flexible, very dressy looking rubber sole). It was a great shoe.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

We've spelled out doom and gloom for AE whenever they introduce new products and it hasn't happened yet. Recrafting is still there. The main line of shoes are still there. Until those two things go away, I'm not going to focus on less expensive "gateway drug" products as indication that it will go the way of Florsheim. I'm not always an optimist -- with Brooks Brothers it's always one step forward and two steps back -- but I try not to "call it" before I actually see it. And it's healthier to have a brighter outlook anyway.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Maybe "We've spelled doom" but I haven't,...

https://hub.aa.com/en/aw/paul-grangaard-allen-edmonds

I'm one of those fellas in the article.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Only three dozen pair ?


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Predictable moves for a company willing to disregard the integrity of the brand.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Bjorn said:


> This is horrible news. 40% lighter? Removable insoles?
> 
> They aught to be looking at Carmina or Loake, *instead they are looking at Ecco*??????


Probably not so much Ecco as much as the $2B number...


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Frankly, some of you depress me at the end of a long day. Really? Have we discontinued the black Park Avenue on you? Isn't it my team and I who brought back the Strand, the McAllister and the Fifth Avenue, who developed the Mora and the Dalton boot, who introduced greater classic colors, who took quality -- and finishing especially -- to higher levels, who introduced the Independence Collection using the finest shoe materials available, and who are doing Group MTOs of classic styles on StyleForum? Haven't we just brought back the great American penny loafer look in our Cavanaugh style, a style that others in Maine used to do but long ago switched to China and materials that don't much look like leather anymore? Do I seem, 6 years into this role, like I march to a profits-only drum? No taste, no design sensibilities, no appreciation for or commitment to our heritage, our authenticity, our core products and, most importantly, our core customer base? Have you seen the lighter weight shoes that will "kill the brand", in your opinion, or might they just be really good, and really better than other "comfort shoes" on the market. Should we forfeit the biggest part of the marketplace or instead try to bring classic styling and high quality materials to it? Should so many great American companies have stopped at their original successes and not expanded or evolved with time and trends? Does serving a broader customer base and more customer needs really mean a degradation of the brand? Do we look like we're becoming an off-shore, China-made company -- with our US employment higher than it has ever been in our 92 year history, and still growing above macro trends? Do you think smart private equity people would buy the company if they didn't think there was still a lot of opportunity for our core products? Guys, I consider you friends as much as that's possible in this forum. Be fair, please.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Mr. Grangaard, mind if I ask you a quick question while you're here? I'm just wondering if there're any plans to introduce a quarter-brogued captoe blucher boot? Obviously there's the bleeker street but I mean a true boot, something like the Eagle County with a shave and a hair cut or the Fifth Street with its hair down?


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

We have a great new captoe, but otherwise plain dress boot (higher up the ankle than the Bleecker Street) that we're about to launch later this month in a Webgem and then roll out in 2015 fall. It's my favorite looking boot right now as I trend more toward some simple elegance styles. I love our brogues, but there's something special also in the simplicity of leather that's not punched or serrated, don't you think?


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Frankly, some of you depress me at the end of a long day. Really? Have we discontinued the black Park Avenue on you? Isn't it my team and I who brought back the Strand, the McAllister and the Fifth Avenue, who developed the Mora and the Dalton boot, who introduced greater classic colors, who took quality -- and finishing especially -- to higher levels, who introduced the Independence Collection using the finest shoe materials available, and who are doing Group MTOs of classic styles on StyleForum? Haven't we just brought back the great American penny loafer look in our Cavanaugh style, a style that others in Maine used to do but long ago switched to China and materials that don't much look like leather anymore? Do I seem, 6 years into this role, like I march to a profits-only drum? No taste, no design sensibilities, no appreciation for or commitment to our heritage, our authenticity, our core products and, most importantly, our core customer base? Have you seen the lighter weight shoes that will "kill the brand", in your opinion, or might they just be really good, and really better than other "comfort shoes" on the market. Should we forfeit the biggest part of the marketplace or instead try to bring classic styling and high quality materials to it? Should so many great American companies have stopped at their original successes and not expanded or evolved with time and trends? Does serving a broader customer base and more customer needs really mean a degradation of the brand? Do we look like we're becoming an off-shore, China-made company -- with our US employment higher than it has ever been in our 92 year history, and still growing above macro trends? Do you think smart private equity people would buy the company if they didn't think there was still a lot of opportunity for our core products? Guys, I consider you friends as much as that's possible in this forum. Be fair, please.


During your stewardship Allen Edmonds footwear quality has steadily declined.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Frankly, some of you guys depress me at the end of a long day. Really? Have we discontinued the black Park Avenue on you? Isn't it my team and I who brought back the Strand, the McAllister and the Fifth Avenue, who developed the Mora and the Dalton boot, who introduced greater classic colors, who took quality -- and finishing especially -- to higher levels, who introduced the Independence Collection using the finest shoe materials available, and who are doing Group MTOs of classic styles on StyleForum? Haven't we just brought back the great American penny loafer look in our Cavanaugh style, a style that others in Maine used to do but long ago switched to China and materials that don't much look like leather anymore? Do I seem, 6 years into this role, like I march to a profits-only drum? No taste, no design sensibilities, no appreciation for or commitment to our heritage, our authenticity, our core products and, most importantly, our core customer base? Have you seen the lighter weight shoes that will "kill the brand", in your opinion, or might they just be really good, and really better than other "comfort shoes" on the market. Should we forfeit the biggest part of the marketplace or instead try to bring classic styling and high quality materials to it? Should so many great American companies have stopped at their original successes and not expanded or evolved with time and trends? Does serving a broader customer base and more customer needs really mean a degradation of the brand? Do we look like we're becoming an off-shore, China-made company -- with our US employment higher than it has ever been in our 92 year history, and still growing above macro trends? Do you think smart private equity people would buy the company if they didn't think there was still a lot of opportunity for our core products? Guys, I consider you friends as much as that's possible in this forum. Be fair, please.


Dear Mr. Grangaard:
Thank you for your leadership of Allen Edmonds and your attentiveness to your customer base. As a native Wisconsinite who, after a nearly twenty year absence, again resides in the state, I am especially grateful for your commitment to retain and expand your Port Washington operations. I purchased my first pair of Allen Edmonds approximately eighteen months ago; today I have five pairs that I call my own and another two that I am sharing with my teenage son. On the spectrum of "principals to presidents," my income and responsibilities are closer to the former, but I have come to appreciate the value and style your company offers and have for the first time in my life "invested" in footwear. I have dealt with sales associates in stores from Brookfield, to DC, to Philly, to NO and never been disappointed; Sandy in recrafting and Allison the MTO expert are treasures. I may wear out my welcome on AAAC before graduating from my "new member" status, but I would ask that you ignore the sort of posts to which you refer. It is to your credit that you read and react to these forums in the first place. I suspect that _you_ enjoy the confidence an overwhelming majority of posters, and that much of the anxiety is directed toward Brentwood for no reason but a general disdain for private equity firms. I for one am a "fan" and will remain a lifelong customer for as long as Allen Edmonds remains the company it is today.

Respectfully,
WC


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

DG123 said:


> During your stewardship Allen Edmonds footwear quality has steadily declined.


https://imageshack.com/i/paUPBXxWg


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> I love our brogues, but there's something special also in the simplicity of leather that's not punched or serrated, don't you think?


I agree, but that's not something I would have expected to hear from Allen Edmonds when I see shoes like the Vernon and the Weybridge.

But the plain shoes like the Carlyle look great. I'm just not a fan of Oxfords (a.k.a. Balmorals) with a 360-degree welt, though I know it's something you're known for.


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

DG123 said:


> During your stewardship Allen Edmonds footwear quality has steadily declined.


You're flat out wrong about that. I see shoes all the time that were made before I got there. I see the black footbed that was switched to (but then we switched back away from), the leathers, the finishing, the soles. We've taken quality to a higher level. We've had our issues, too, in my time -- heel problems from supply chain shortfalls most noteworthy-- but overall we're up. Our quality scores from our biggest customer, Nordstrom, are higher than ever, and they know shoes. We make a lot more shoes today, however, so even at the same % of issues (which is not where we are) there are more units. We've also taken our customer service promise to a higher level -- we take responsibility and fix issues immediately. Sorry, you just don't have the full facts. Sorry also if the overall facts don't fit your personal experience. We made mistakes before I got there and we will continue to. There are 212 handcrafted steps in making a pair of our Goodyear welts. There will be human errors. Hence our customer service pledge to our customers.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

WICaniac said:


> for no reason but a general disdain for private equity firms.
> 
> Respectfully,
> WC


Or some of the disdain could be that $400 for a pair of questionable quality shoes is not an honest value. 
As for the private equity industry, in relation to investment in consumer goods companies, it's usually about exploiting a legendary brand name for short term sales and profits. Pardon those of us who are disdainful of such a "business plan".


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Thanks very much. Welcome home!



WICaniac said:


> Dear Mr. Grangaard:
> Thank you for your leadership of Allen Edmonds and your attentiveness to your customer base. As a native Wisconsinite who, after a nearly twenty year absence, again resides in the state, I am especially grateful for your commitment to retain and expand your Port Washington operations. I purchased my first pair of Allen Edmonds approximately eighteen months ago; today I have five pairs that I call my own and another two that I am sharing with my teenage son. On the spectrum of "principals to presidents," my income and responsibilities are closer to the former, but I have come to appreciate the value and style your company offers and have for the first time in my life "invested" in footwear. I have dealt with sales associates in stores from Brookfield, to DC, to Philly, to NO and never been disappointed; Sandy in recrafting and Allison the MTO expert are treasures. I may wear out my welcome on AAAC before graduating from my "new member" status, but I would ask that you ignore the sort of posts to which you refer. It is to your credit that you read and react to these forums in the first place. I suspect that _you_ enjoy the confidence an overwhelming majority of posters, and that much of the anxiety is directed toward Brentwood for no reason but a general disdain for private equity firms. I for one am a "fan" and will remain a lifelong customer for as long as Allen Edmonds remains the company it is today.
> 
> Respectfully,
> WC


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> You're flat out wrong about that. I see shoes all the time that were made before I got there. I see the black footbed that was switched to (but then we switched back away from), the leathers, the finishing, the soles. We've taken quality to a higher level. We've had our issues, too, in my time -- heel problems from supply chain shortfalls most noteworthy-- but overall we're up. Our quality scores from our biggest customer, Nordstrom, are higher than ever, and they know shoes. We make a lot more shoes today, however, so even at the same % of issues (which is not where we are) there are more units. We've also taken our customer service promise to a higher level -- we take responsibility and fix issues immediately. Sorry, you just don't have the full facts. Sorry also if the overall facts don't fit your personal experience. We made mistakes before I got there and we will continue to. There are 212 handcrafted steps in making a pair of our Goodyear welts. There will be human errors. Hence our customer service pledge to our customers.


Why do you suppose my MTO Allen Edmonds shoes fit so much better than the same shoe model made on your volume production lines ? If you can answer that then you know more about the shoe manufacturing business than I think you do.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

DG123 said:


> Or some of the disdain could be that $400 for a pair of questionable quality shoes is not an honest value.
> As for the private equity industry, in relation to investment in consumer goods companies, it's usually about exploiting a legendary brand name for short term sales and profits. Pardon those of us who are disdainful of such a "business plan".





DG123 said:


> Why do you suppose my MTO Allen Edmonds shoes fit so much better than the same shoe model made on your volume production lines ? If you can answer that then you know more about the shoe manufacturing business than I think you do.


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

DG123 said:


> Why do you suppose my MTO Allen Edmonds shoes fit so much better than the same shoe model made on your volume production lines ? If you can answer that then you know more about the shoe manufacturing business than I think you do.


I'm confident I know more about shoe manufacturing than you think I do, but that's not much of a hurdle to clear. Tell me about your MTO and I'll see if I can answer it -- what did you change from the "production line model"?


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

As long as the Strand, McAllister, and Park Avenue stay in production, I'm a happy camper lol :biggrin:


(...because I still need to buy all three...:redface


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> I'm confident I know more about shoe manufacturing than you think I do, but that's not much of a hurdle to clear. Tell me about your MTO and I'll see if I can answer it -- what did you change from the "production line model"?


Same shoe. One pair produced through your MTO department, the other pair went through your volume stock production line.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Jovan said:


> As long as they keep their core collection of shoes, I'm not complaining.


Agree. People are making a LOT of assumptions here, with most of the same people who complain about AE all the time - being the first to jump on them here.

Rolling out a line of lightweight shoes that are made for walking and travelers who want better than Ecco or Rockport quality, but dont want to break the bank - IN NO WAY says they are compromising on the build quality of the Park Ave / Fifth Ave / Strand core collection. Same with selling clothes - makes no difference to me, until I see that it is taking away from the quality of the core offerings.

As for comparing the trajectory of AE to that of Florsheim or Johnson & Murphy, show me the Cordovan Park Ave or Independance Line equivalent in the Florsheim or Johnson and Murphy catalog?


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

I have only recently purchased AE and now own 4 pair (3 pre-owned, one Walnut Strands from the Shoebank). So far, I am extremely happy with all of them. They look fantastic and are very comfortable even when worn for traveling. 

I would also like to share that my experiences with your stores in Charlotte (in person) and Port Washington (on the phone) were outstanding in every way possible, with special praise for the folks here in Charlotte.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

Sorry it took so long to write this, that others have posted before me.

This is in reference to DG123's posting that quality at AE has gone down since Mr. Grangaard took over as CEO, and my question is directed to him.


By what objective criteria do you base this comment on?

I'm not asking to be argumentative or a smart alek, I just want to be educated. 

Look, I'm new at this "quality shoe" game. I have never seen AEs of yore, so I have no basis to compare. Those who have been at this for a long time, have the experience I do not have. So I'd lke to know what has occured during the evolution of a brand that I have invested a lot of time and money in, and have a selfish interest in seeing suceed and progress.

I can tell you, that I have been impressed by Mr. Grangaard's participation in this and the OF's community. When else have you been able to communicate directly with the CEO of a large company, especially on such an intimate level. Unlike other CEOs who seem to have executive compensation, and short term returns as their highest priority, he seems to have the future of his company as his lead motivator. In doing so, and from what he says, it appears he is commited to continuing to provide the classic stylings we want, while experimenting with ways to expand his products to a larger population. Growth, diversification, and profit optimization do not necessarily mean a loss of quality. That is the path many coompanies have gone down, to their products detriment, but does not mean it has to be that way. I will give him the benifit of a doubt that he is trying to thread the eye of the needle, and do what is good for his company, employees, and investors, while continuing to satisfy his loyal, core customer base.

As a new customer, I have been very happy with my AE purchases. Despite the vocal griping of some, who felt they received a suboptimal product, the growth in sales indicate a satisfied customer base. With the volume of shoes they make, of course there will be thousands of rejects. But no one has to keep them. AE's CS and return policies are legendary. Sure, maybe you might get a "bad" shoe, but at the end of the day, you will be made happy. Then those shopping at the shoebank will be made happy by purchasing your dissapointment. Will it always work out, can there be improvments in QC? Of course, nothing is perfect, and you can't please all the people all the time. But AE gets an A for effort in my book.

Though a shoe Newbie, I have had the great fortune to experience a wide range of AE products in many of their lasts and sizes. It has been a learning experience. I have also had the great fortune to experience some of their competetors products. AE may not make the best shoes in the world, but in my experience they make the best shoes at their price point given their enormous range of styles, colors and lasts. IMO their quality surpasses that of some more pricier brands, and you have to get more expensive before you find another shoe company that compares. This is calfskin I'm referencing, and at their price point, IMO, only Carmina delivers a nicer shoe, but with more limited selections, and production.

In the future will I continue to buy AE? Sure, as I've pointed out in numerous postings. But after 21 shoes and boots, I'm moving on to other brands for different needs and experience. There are many shoe styles and quality enhancements that AE cannot provide, but AE will continue to be my basic go to brand. Unless I hit the lottery.


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## polojock615 (Feb 14, 2012)

I for one think Paul did a great job on Reddit. I'm looking forward to the SWB. I'd love to see more cordovan colors, especially green. I think a Patriot loafer in green shell would be amazing. The big question is - how do I become a shoe tester?!


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

That's not a lot of information for me to go on. Depending on when you ordered them, they may well have been made by the same people on the same line. Fit is mostly a question of the last shape and then the pulling of the upper onto the last. If you ordered the same shoe in both cases, we used the same cutting patterns on the upper -- so the only variables are in the sewing of the pieces, which is done with marked precision, and in the pulling onto the last, which can be a "feel" thing with the puller. By that I mean that in the last-pull variable, there can occasionally be minor variations based on the worker's pull that become apparent if one's foot is a tight fit with the given last. If they don't fit right, return them. But don't make cynical remarks about a quality decline because of that. You're recklessly impugning our workers' skills and they don't deserve it, sir. You can take me on, fine. But they are above your accusations.


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## sleepyinsanfran (Oct 24, 2013)

DG123 said:


> Or some of the disdain could be that $400 for a pair of questionable quality shoes is not an honest value.
> As for the private equity industry, in relation to investment in consumer goods companies, it's usually about exploiting a legendary brand name for short term sales and profits. Pardon those of us who are disdainful of such a "business plan".


dunno which these $400 shoes are, perhaps you mean an RDA sale MTO? ($275 + $125?)
I think we have been pampered by AE's quality/price ratio: the majority of shoe buyers who can afford $400 shoes drop those amounts for cheaply constructed designer label shoes, only to chuck them out after a year or two. Given AE's competitors, I think $400 for a pair of AE MTO shoes is great value. None of my AE shoes (which I have owned, admittedly, for 10 years or less) have yet to require any repairs other than resoling. I have indeed diversified somewhat to other brands, but that wouldn't have happened without having worn AE's as my gateway GY welted shoes.

I share your concerns about private equity, but ranting at the CEO is rather unfair. I personally am happy that Paul Grangaard has stayed on at the helm at AE even after the change in ownership.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> You're recklessly impugning our workers' skills and they don't deserve it, sir. You can take me on, fine. But they are above your accusations.


No, you are charging $400 for a pair of shoes that are of less than excellent quality. It's on you if you don't pay your employees enough , or train them well enough, to correctly last a shoe.
And it is you who is the "reckless one" , coming on here trying to sell a song and dance about "broader consumer market" , to a forum which respects and appreciates quality footwear.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> I'm confident I know more about shoe manufacturing than you think I do, but that's not much of a hurdle to clear. Tell me about your MTO and I'll see if I can answer it -- what did you change from the "production line model"?


Please don't let these rude, disrespectful, insults upset you in any way. There are ways to voice your dissatisfaction in a polite, meaningful, educated way. Those posts are just an example of how not to have a mature conversation. I'm sure that if a person has a problem with a service or product, and has that kind of attitude when attempting to resolve the issue, he will be continually disappointed, and eventually irrationally angry.

While each of us may have our individual experiences with AE that span the spectrum from good to bad, I assure you the vast majority of us would like nothing better than to see AE continue to profit, grow and deliver a high quality product at a realistic price.


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## ridethecliche (Jan 7, 2014)

Haha, this thread delivers. I'm so glad that Paul dropped in here.

I'm also hopeful that the newer lasts get sleeker. I think that's my biggest complaint, which honestly isn't a big one given that it's entirely a style thing. 

Thanks again for doing the reddit thing and popping in here as well!


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

DG123 said:


> No, you are charging $400 for a pair of shoes that are of less than excellent quality. It's on you if you don't pay your employees enough , or train them well enough, to correctly last a shoe.
> And it is you who is the "reckless one" , coming on here trying to sell a song and dance about "broader consumer market" , to a forum which respects and appreciates quality footwear.


As George H W Bush memorably said in a town hall format campaign debate years ago, to a woman who's "question" was basically a vitriolic rant -- "I'll just put you down as 'undecided'." For the others on the forum who truly do respect and appreciate quality footwear and the people who make it, they have our and my pledge that Allen Edmonds will keep deliverying just that. Good night.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Thank you for your time, Paul!! :thumbs-up: I think that I will visit the Leeds store tomorrow to add to my collection. lol


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## ridethecliche (Jan 7, 2014)

Also in the AMA, PG's follow up to the Ecco-like shoe comment:

[-]Lavar 4 points 10 hours ago 
Any innovations coming out of the competition that you wish came out of your shop?


[-]AllenEdmondsCEO[S] 9 points 10 hours ago 
Ecco did a great job with lighterweight, comfortable shoes many years ago and they're now a $2B company. (Styling is a matter of taste.) Early next year we're coming out with shoes that look great but are 40% lighter and have removabale insoles like running shoes. They're going to be fantastic ... and they're overdue.

[-]Metcarfre 4 points 8 hours ago 
Will they still be resoleable, or constructed using other methods?

[-]AllenEdmondsCEO[S] 1 point 3 hours ago 
Fully Recraft-able. That'll be a big differentiator for us in that type of shoe, as well as the quality of Goodyear welted construction, the layer of cork that molds to your foot, the amazing light weight of the sole and shoe overall, and the All American great styling. Can you tell I'm going to be wearing these a lot myself next year?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

DG123 said:


> No, you are charging $400 for a pair of shoes that are of less than excellent quality. It's on you if you don't pay your employees enough , or train them well enough, to correctly last a shoe.
> And it is you who is the "reckless one" , coming on here trying to sell a song and dance about "broader consumer market" , to a forum which respects and appreciates quality footwear.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

DG123 said:


> No, you are charging $400 for a pair of shoes that are of less than excellent quality. It's on you if you don't pay your employees enough , or train them well enough, to correctly last a shoe.
> And it is you who is the "reckless one" , coming on here trying to sell a song and dance about "broader consumer market" , to a forum which respects and appreciates quality footwear.


Do us a favor and dont end your post by trying to hide behind the group, as if any of us agree with you doltish behavior. If you dont like AE, dont buy anymore shoes from them. But stop being a tool to the only CEO who ever bothered to even engage with the AAAC community directly.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

mrkleen said:


> Do us a favor and dont end your post by trying to hide behind the group, as if any of us agree with you doltish behavior. If you dont like AE, dont buy anymore shoes from them. But stop being a tool to the only CEO who ever bothered to even engage with the AAAC community directly.


Well said...


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

I just finished reading this thread. WOW!!! and WTF!?!!! 

It's like someone brought a dozen fresh donuts but one had to spill his coffee all over it because theres no jelly. 

Sorry Paul, we love you man! (Even though I never got a chance to get that waived MTO fee, ahem)
Just don't bring back the black sockliner ok? :aportnoy:


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## ridethecliche (Jan 7, 2014)

maximar said:


> I just finished reading this thread. WOW!!! and WTF!?!!!
> 
> It's like someone brought a dozen fresh donuts but one had to spill his coffee all over it because theres no jelly.
> 
> ...


Join an SF GMTO. Some cool stuff going on there.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

mrkleen said:


> .......... If you dont like AE, dont buy anymore shoes from them. But stop being a tool to the only CEO who ever bothered to even engage with the AAAC community directly.


+1. ....

.
.
.

.
.
...


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

I suppose one's closest followers will also be your harshest critics. I think the amount of threads devoted to AE both on this and "the other forum" are a testament to how much AE is appreciated in our circles. There is no other brand of shoe that is namechecked as often and is consistently suggested when new members ask about footwear. Sure, there are "better" shoes out there, but they are much more expensive. Not to brag, but in my opinion when I am wearing my AEs, my shoes are in the top 1% of the best looking shoes worn by business men in the downtown core.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I probably have about 20 pair of Allen Edmonds and a few that are out of rotation right now pending recrafting. I've always appreciated the classic styling and the value. I have honestly never had any issues with quality or shoes falling apart. Granted, I don't inspect the shoes with a magnifying glass and I'm not one to get too twisted about a single stitch being out of place.

My critique is that there are just too many shoes being offered. It's like the GM of shoes; too many models. I suppose I'm free to ignore those I don't find appealing and focus on those that I like. 

The one thing I would recommend to the CEO is this: Comb through your old catalogues and bring back some of the vintage models. There are some really wonderful shoes from the 50's and 60's that seem just as relevant today as they did then. Great designs on some really great lasts. Just a suggestion. Sometimes your best new customers are those who have been loyal customer who rediscover the brand.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> The one thing I would recommend to the CEO is this: Comb through your old catalogues and bring back some of the vintage models. There are some really wonderful shoes from the 50's and 60's that seem just as relevant today as they did then. Great designs on some really great lasts. Just a suggestion. Sometimes your best new customers are those who have been loyal customer who rediscover the brand.


+1

I would totally be on board with this idea. their older back catalog has some amazing styles that are still relevant today.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Whoa! I hadn't checked back in since dinner time yesterday, and hadn't seen the direction of some of the conversation. Thanks for posting Paul!!!



SG_67 said:


> The one thing I would recommend to the CEO is this: Comb through your old catalogues and bring back some of the vintage models. There are some really wonderful shoes from the 50's and 60's that seem just as relevant today as they did then.


I agree with this too. You don't even have to go back very far to find something like the Malvern chukka. I love my brown suede Malverns and never did understand why those were discontinued.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

zzdocxx said:


> Only three dozen pair ?


I had to understate, at one point it gets embarrassing.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Originally Posted by *DG123* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1605879#post1605879 
No, you are charging $400 for a pair of shoes that are of less than excellent quality. It's on you if you don't pay your employees enough , or train them well enough, to correctly last a shoe.
And it is you who is the "reckless one" , coming on here trying to sell a song and dance about "broader consumer market" , to a forum which respects and appreciates quality footwear.



Jovan said:


>


Jovan,

And you thought I was negative,...


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

mrkleen said:


> Do us a favor and dont end your post by trying to hide behind the group, as if any of us agree with you doltish behavior. If you dont like AE, dont buy anymore shoes from them. But stop being a tool to the only CEO who ever bothered to even engage with the AAAC community directly.


If I was trying to "hide behind the group" I would have posted effusive nonsense. Rather than do that I gave the AE boss constructive criticism. The truth is that he is leading his company down the same path which Johnston and Murphy and Florsheim have followed.
If he wants AE to be an honest quality brand he should be focused not on expanding sales volume, but on training workers to make better quality shoes. Instead he has chosen to broaden the line, emphasize fashion trends, and send some labor intensive production work offshore. In the short term these moves will lead to higher company sales and profits. In the longer term the brand integrity suffers.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I'm not sure that I agree with Mr. Grangaard on anything that he's said here. If what he says is true, then why did the CEO of Florsheim say the opposite in his post?

Oh, wait. The CEO of Florsheim has never posted here. Nor has Ralph L. Nor has the head of Alden, insofar as I know. And, while we're at it, how many other CEOs would do the Reddit thing the way Grangaard did?

Mr. Grangaard isn't in business to make our feet happy, he's in business to make money, and the fact that he's making feet happy at the same time is a happy intersection. I don't give a hoot if AE makes flip-flops for **** hounds or sweaters for sheep so long as they make shoes that fit me, look good and last a long time. Others may have different experiences, but that's been my experience, and the experience of many other members. When you really love a company's products, it is natural to care about that company's future and what it might do next. No one wants AE to become another Johnston and Murphy, and there have been way too many examples of that.

AE isn't perfect, and no one, Grangaard included, says that it is. But those who seem to believe that the company is doomed if it branches out by selling garments and shoes that I wouldn't be caught dead wearing should remember what has happened to so many companies that refused to grow and experiment. Look around you in any given crowd. See how awful the shoes look that so many men wear? I don't begrudge AE catering to people who have no taste or sense of style, because, sadly, most men lack taste and style sense when it comes to shoes and clothing. If AE can make a buck from them, so much the better. I'll start whining when my Park Avenues fall apart before their time. When AE refuses to take a return on shoes I find less than satisfactory. When Grangaard sits atop a mountain of cash laughing an evil laugh and not responding to customers on forums like this when they have questions or concerns.

The only complaint I have now about AE is their current sale that is threatening me with bankruptcy. Classic models in shell cordovan for $325? Are you kidding me? And people still complain.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

DG123:

I truly wish I had time to go through the comments you've made, but I don't. In short, your comments were your subjective opinions.

If you believe that your comments were constructive then I'm not sure you can be reasoned with.

I do believe Allen Edmonds is adding new lines to the lower end of the market to gain as much market share as possible at all price points. As I've said in this thread, I watched this same strategy play out with Florsheim until the few high quality core item shoes they had left in their line were just an afterthought. I don't want this to happen to Allen Edmonds and I have stated so,&#8230;.Only to be called "Negative." (No complaints, I can take it.)

But you have taken it over the top. Your comments have been impolite to the point of being plainly rude.

32Rock:

I agree with most of your post. But the part where you mention what has happened to companies that refused to grow and experiment,....Just look at what Johnston and Murphy has become because of growing and experimenting, take a look at their catalogs. Oh, they offer a pretty good looking, and I'm told well crafted, shoe in their Crown Aristocrat, but the vasy majority of what they make is imported el-cheapo shoes. This is what I fear and contrary to to being called "Negative" for saying so it is not wrong to point out the Johnston and Murphy, Florsheim experience many of us have witnessed.

Regards,


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Contrary to DG123's comments, Paul Grangaard, I bought my first pair of Allen Edmond's shoes back in 1972 or 1973, as I recall. I've been buying AE's ever since and, though I've more pairs of shoes on my shoe racks than I can ever hope to wear out in my lifetime, I suspect I will continue to buy AE's as you continue to introduce your new designs. Your black calfskin Leeds got me through much of my 31 years in the USAF and I still have a #8 shell cordovan pair of Leeds that have served me well for more than 30 years, worn with civilian attire, and still see regular wear. Not every pair of AE's I've purchased has been perfect, but when concerns arose, AE's customer service representatives have gone to great lengths to resolve any concerns I might have had. A customer really can't ask for more than that! I really could not have expected any more from a manufacturer...count me as a lifelong thrilled customer! 

Thanks to Paul Grangaard and to every one of those exceptional AE employees!


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## Dmontez (Dec 6, 2012)

DG123 said:


> If I was trying to "hide behind the group" I would have posted effusive nonsense. Rather than do that I gave the AE boss constructive criticism. The truth is that he is leading his company down the same path which Johnston and Murphy and Florsheim have followed.
> If he wants AE to be an honest quality brand he should be focused not on expanding sales volume, but on training workers to make better quality shoes. Instead he has chosen to broaden the line, emphasize fashion trends, and send some labor intensive production work offshore. In the short term these moves will lead to higher company sales and profits. In the longer term the brand integrity suffers.


Forgive me if I am wrong, but I saw nothing constructive about your previous posts. They all seemed to be attacking Mr. Grangaard personally and putting down the employees of the company. It seems to me as though you are speaking for yourself on this one. Not all of us are happy about the fashion forward/trendy shoes that AE seems to be focusing on, but I understand that they are trying to expand their customer base, and lets be honest here they have us hook line and sinker, just as long as they do not get rid of their core line of shoes. We will continue to push AE to first time quality shoe buyers coming to AAAC seeking advice.

I must second that I would love to see some of the old catalog stuff be brought back.


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## hohne1 (May 12, 2010)

I just wanted to put my .02 in on this - most won't care, but it makes me feel better so bear with me. I have been a big AE fan since my dad bought me my first pair in the late 1980's. I current have about 40 pair of AE - the oldest of which was purchased in 1991. I recently bought my son his first AE's, so it's kind of a family thing.

I have seen AE go from private ownership, private equity, and now changing private equity again. I have seen AE go from the classic syles, to the casual styles of the 1990's, back to the classic styles, and now a mixture of both classic and casual.

Over the years, AE has changed - and that is a good thing in my opinion. Times have changed, styles have changes, the world has changed - companies need to change also. I like the fact that AE has changed to fit the current times but has managed to hold onto its core values. They still make good-looking high-quality shoes at reasonable prices (at least in my opinion) and they still have a large part of their manufacturing and operations here in the United States. Until that changes, I will continue to purchase AE shoes.

I have seen AE branch out into other products besides shoes and belts. I personally like that. I think that is smart - if I am buying shoes, why not try to sell me some other related products while I'm in the store? And they might pick up some new customers that come in to purchase socks, shirts, pants, etc. and decide to buy some AE shoes. I know some people that never considered AE shoes - they thought they were too expensive. But after trying them, they see the shoes are worth the money. I have introduced several people to AE through the Shoe Bank, periodic sales, and even giving them a pair of mine (guy we hired right out of college wore my same size and I had a pair that the last did not agree with my foot - he loves them). If other related products get people in the door to discover AE shoes, that just makes business sense. You don't want to give up the shoe business, but it doesn't hurt to help prop it up.

Some people complain about AE quality. I have 40 pair of AE and I have never returned a pair. I have a few pair from the Shoe Bank. None of these had any defects that caused me to return them and these supposedly have defects - maybe I'm not as picky as some others, but these defects haven't caused me to send any back. When you have a handmade product made out of natural materials at the volume and price point of Allen Edmonds, you probably won't see absolute perfection. But these are shoes that will get worn and will get scuffed, so absolute perfection isn't something I want.

I appreciate Paul's leadership through the years. I also appreciate his openness and willingness to discuss matters with customers like he does not Reddit and forums like this one. I can't recall being able to exchange dialouge with any other CEO of a company I purchase products from. Some folks won't like AE and that is fine. But as long as AE keeps making good-looking high-quality affordable shoes and maintains a large employment base here in the United States, I will continue to be a loyal customer.

Thanks for letting me voice my thoughts.

Chris


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

32rollandrock said:


> When you really love a company's products, it is natural to care about that company's future and what it might do next. No one wants AE to become another Johnston and Murphy, and there have been way too many examples of that.


+1. I think this is why there are so many strong opinions on the matter.



32rollandrock said:


> But those who seem to believe that the company is doomed if it branches out by selling garments and shoes that I wouldn't be caught dead wearing


Like this?

Clothing is a tough market to break into for them. Scrolling through their current offerings, I don't think they are really giving consumers a reason to purchase from them, other than convenience if it's in the same store. Some of the coats/jackets/sweaters look quite nice, but some of the price points for many of the other items seem off for what they are. The vests and cummerbunds look like high school prom. There's no strong stylistic identity across their clothing line and many items (or the photography) don't give off the appearance of a high quality brand in the way their shoes do.

Just a thought - I wonder if AE has ever considered a collaboration with Hickey Freeman? They both are old-school respected American brands, producing high quality products at a reasonable cost. They would have a virtually identical target audience. HF doesn't carry shoes, and AE until recently didn't carry clothes. Maybe they could do some cross-promotion thing where HF could design and manufacture some of the clothes (which would alleviate some of the style/quality concerns I mentioned) and AE could design a line for them just as they do for BB, RL, etc.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

Wow. Great thread. I thought I was loyal already to AE, owning about 15 pair. But now my loyalty is sealed. Thank you Paul G. for giving us your perspective.

By the way, I have one pair of the Dominican Republic AE collection oxfords. A plain toe lace-up called Provo. Paid a little over $100 in the clearance area of the AE site, and I wear them for long airport days. Great comfortable shoes.


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Gentlemen --

Thanks very much for the flow of emails and support since I signed off last night. Some thoughts before I run off to get a sandwich and start my afternoon.

1) As I said in my earlier email, I consider most of you virtual friends. My exposure to AAAC began almost immediately upon coming to AE and I've gained a good deal from our interactions, and I'm grateful. I've also enjoyed in-person meetings in Chicago, NYC, Florence (in the case of Andy himself, a great guy), other stores and at our plant. I will continue to be in dialogue with you and I appreciate your comments -- constructive or attaboys. We only get better from both.

2) I bristle obviously at two things and will continue to. A) Aggressively false accusations about quality deterioration, which the comprehensive data that we and our largest retailer customer follow clearly contradict -- not that we're ever going to be perfect pair by pair. When it comes to quality, we have the opposite strategy than DG123 says is happening. We're working to go UP in quality consistency and become even better at the fine touches that would make our very best performance better than it has ever been. B) Related to A -- we've seen what other brands have done and we're not at all pursuing their strategies offshore or interested in shiifting our core focuses. We do indeed want to expand, but not to move who we are, our core products and our core customers. The suggestion that this PE group intends (or the last PE group intended) to lead us that other way of deterioration, just because that's what PE folks do, irritates me. It's prejudicial stereotyping of some really decent people. I wouldn't be here for that kind of strategy anyway, (there are in fact other ways for me to spend my time). I care too much about doing things right, well and with a sense of creativity, art and design. My partners are the same way. We're just not driven by the bottom line per se -- we're driven by thrilling customers and employees and growing both groups substantially. We've been around business long enough to know that the companies that gain the hearts and minds of both groups legitimately, and that put those two groups above anything else, usually do just great for owners. Those who put owners first usually fail everybody.

3) I've forgotten to mention another reason why we're coming out with the lightweight dress shoe line next year. We lose way too many lifelong core AE customers when they have foot trouble and feel the need to go for softer soles, removable insoles (so they can put in their own orthotic or preferred insole) and softer leathers. Right now we have only two shoe styles for them, neither one of which is on my list of stylish designs -- the Benton and the Ashton. Otherwise, we lose them to offshore, rubber-soled shoe manufacturers. I've seen it happen my whole business career, not just in my time at AE -- Plantar fasciitis leads to a shoe brand change and, most often, to a deterioration in the man's styling that he really can't stand but so far can't help. We want to give him comfort AND style at a level not available today. They won't be as beautiful as our best work on the Timeless Classics, but they'll be a lot better than most of what's out there. And we'll keep a customer for life.

4) I do appreciate your constructive criticism and feedback. If you don't like it, let me know. If your taste and our sales results conflict, I'll let you know -- so that you know I'm listening but we're staying with the style anyway. The Strandmok is one such example. Someone here (or on SF, I can't recall) panned the shoe and held it out as evidence of our styling tone deafness. It's one of our bestselling shoes this fall and very popular with guys under 40, a customer segment we need to grow. There's a case where reasonable men can differ and it may be an age thing.

5) We've been bouncing around in apparel. You're absolutlely right. While there have been some good pieces, overall we're not at all where we want to be. We'll quickly be getting better, though, which will be more apparent with some November/Holiday deliveries and then more so in Spring '15. Watch in November for some good shirts and a travel blue blazer that's an incredible sport coat for taking on the road. We've got some high quality dress and casual pants coming also. Accessible luxury, more value than the price, great quality and - when we can (and sport shirts are tough for this) -- Made in USA.

6) Thanks again for your support of our company. We want you --- including you DG123, if possible -- happy ambassadors for us.

Best wishes,
Paul


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

SG_67 said:


> I probably have about 20 pair of Allen Edmonds and a few that are out of rotation right now pending recrafting. I've always appreciated the classic styling and the value. I have honestly never had any issues with quality or shoes falling apart. Granted, I don't inspect the shoes with a magnifying glass and I'm not one to get too twisted about a single stitch being out of place.
> 
> My critique is that there are just too many shoes being offered. It's like the GM of shoes; too many models. I suppose I'm free to ignore those I don't find appealing and focus on those that I like.
> 
> The one thing I would recommend to the CEO is this: Comb through your old catalogues and bring back some of the vintage models. There are some really wonderful shoes from the 50's and 60's that seem just as relevant today as they did then. Great designs on some really great lasts. Just a suggestion. Sometimes your best new customers are those who have been loyal customer who rediscover the brand.


Agreed. I've looked through some of those catalogues and they were nice. Though not everything great from AE has come from that period. The Park Avenue came about as late as 1980. I'm guessing it replaced a previous model of cap toe that wasn't doing too well.



DG123 said:


> If I was trying to "hide behind the group" I would have posted effusive nonsense. Rather than do that I gave the AE boss constructive criticism. The truth is that he is leading his company down the same path which Johnston and Murphy and Florsheim have followed.
> If he wants AE to be an honest quality brand he should be focused not on expanding sales volume, but on training workers to make better quality shoes. Instead he has chosen to broaden the line, emphasize fashion trends, and send some labor intensive production work offshore. In the short term these moves will lead to higher company sales and profits. In the longer term the brand integrity suffers.


You really need a hug, man. Here, on behalf of the Ninth Doctor, have one. (Or pretend _you're_ the Ninth Doctor if that helps.)


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## 3piece (Jan 22, 2014)

orange fury said:


> As long as the Strand, McAllister, and Park Avenue stay in production, I'm a happy camper lol :biggrin:


I'll join you, as long as they make size 6.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

DG123,

Not to pyle on and not that I'm a Billy Joel fan but the lyrics to one of his songs come to mind regarding your posts: "It's no big sin to stick your two cents in if you know when to leave it alone, but you went over the line you couldn't see it was time to go home."


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

127.72 MHz said:


> DG123,
> 
> Not to pyle on and not that I'm a Billy Joel fan but the lyrics to one of his songs come to mind regarding your posts: "It's no big sin to stick your two cents in if you know when to leave it alone, but you went over the line you couldn't see it was time to go home."


I asked the AE boss a question about the fit differences between MTO and stock production line. He gave a partially correct answer (technique used by employee doing the lasting), but he did not own up to the reason. That is, lack of employee training.
As for the general strategy of going down market, which he is leading, in fairness (to him) the fact of the matter is that he has little choice. His bosses want to see significant top line and bottom line increases, especially top line revenue. But the top quality men's footwear industry is not a high sales volume market. So, to achieve significant sales growth he must do the things he has been doing.
That is, offering trendy styling, lower priced 'collections", taking either full shoe or partial production to the Dominican Republic, volume private label manufacturing, putting the AE name on non footwear product categories, owning and operating a large number of AE brand boutique concept stores, frequent promotional discounts etc... This is the typical evolution from exclusive prestigious brand to main stream market.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

The Strandmok may be a best seller, but it doesn't make the cut for me and does not play in the classical shoe league. I have no interest in what sells to most guys under 40. Nor in orthopedic shoes. That's a different forum, tbh. 

IMO, critical analysis of any manufacturer is welcome. If someone offers such criticism, it's quite alright to disagree and offer a different view. But let's not attack the critic just because the critiqued company posts here. 

This is a forum on fashion and style, where people post different views. My original comment, that looking at for example Carmina rather than looking at Ecco would be beneficial, still stands. Anyone disagreeing can surely post a reason for it rather than an admonition at the posters?


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> I have no interest in what sells to most guys under 40. Nor in orthopedic shoes. That's a different forum, tbh.


Okay, maybe you don't, but a lot of people do, so why should orthopedic shoes and stylish shoes be mutually exclusive? Why should people with screwed up feet be denied decent looking shoes?

AE has made great looking, great quality orthotic-friendly shoes in the past. I should know, I own a number of them. I am ecstatic if AE will expand that line, so long as they are of the quality and style that we expect from AE.


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## Dmontez (Dec 6, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> The Strandmok may be a best seller, but it doesn't make the cut for me and does not play in the classical shoe league. I have no interest in what sells to most guys under 40. Nor in orthopedic shoes. That's a different forum, tbh.
> 
> IMO, critical analysis of any manufacturer is welcome. If someone offers such criticism, it's quite alright to disagree and offer a different view. But let's not attack the critic just because the critiqued company posts here.
> 
> This is a forum on fashion and style, where people post different views. My original comment, that looking at for example Carmina rather than looking at Ecco would be beneficial, still stands. Anyone disagreeing can surely post a reason for it rather than an admonition at the posters?


I think everyone on this forum agrees that they do not love the fashion forward/trendy stuff, but AE is trying to get a bigger piece of that market. I can not fault them for that. I am well under 40, and I would not wear much or any of the stuff that AE is pushing to that crowd, but I understand why there are trying. As long as AE keeps up with their core models I will still praise them, and point newcomers into the AE direction.

Your comment about them looking at higher quality brands rather than Ecco is constructive criticism, but DG123 flat out attacked Mr. Grangaard and the employees before even asking a question that could be responded to by Mr. Grangaard in regards to "diminishing quality" that he spoke of.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> The Strandmok may be a best seller, but it doesn't make the cut for me and does not play in the classical shoe league.





Dmontez said:


> I think everyone on this forum agrees that they do not love the fashion forward/trendy stuff, but AE is trying to get a bigger piece of that market. I can not fault them for that.


It may be a best seller, but sales might still have been as good or better if it was produced as a blucher which seems more appropriate for such a casual shoe. Maybe or maybe not, but I'd be curious to see the distressed leather and red brick sole of the Strandmok as a cap toe blucher like this one:


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## Peppercorn78 (Aug 2, 2014)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Gentlemen --
> 
> Thanks very much for the flow of emails and support since I signed off last night. Some thoughts before I run off to get a sandwich and start my afternoon.
> 
> ...


thank you for this post, Paul. I just feel like I need to stick my toe in because this is twice in public you've said the Strandmok is a popular shoe, despite "StyleForum's" disapproval.

Well, the conversation in question happened with me (not speaking on behalf of all of StyleForum), and I just want to clarify that I was not actually panning the shoe itself (while not a favorite of mine, I don't think its that bad  Instead I was positing that the leather looked like the same brush-off leather used in the Morgans last year, at least from the web site photos. Having seen the Strandmok in person now, I will say that I can see it is more handsome in person than in the web site photos (a common opinion on many shoe pictures on the AE site).

But at first, the bleaching effect did make me think it was one of those questionable "brush off" leathers, hence the comment.

Anyway, keep up the good work! I've got 15 pairs going on 18, including a navy Eagle County from the new SF GMTO program. Stoked about that, BTW. Thanks for starting it up for us.

--Patrick C


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

However, some of us may indeed feel they should forfeit the largest part of the marketplace. Mercedes does not do cheap cars. Ferrari does not do slow cars. Crockett and Jones does not do comfy Ecco shoes. No firm I know of successfully makes all kinds of shoes. That would be a conglomerate of sorts. Inertia could set in and prevent innovation within the marketplace I find relevant (classic shoes). There could be a lack of focus. Critiquing going in that direction is not irrelevant in regards to the OPs referenced reddit discussion. 

Have AE abolished core models? Perhaps not. But do we enjoy the focus on casualisation? I don't. Relevant feedback, I don't know. Relevant discussion on this forum, sure.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

DG123 said:


> I asked the AE boss a question about the fit differences between MTO and stock production line. He gave a partially correct answer (technique used by employee doing the lasting), but he did not own up to the reason. That is, lack of employee training.
> As for the general strategy of going down market, which he is leading, in fairness (to him) the fact of the matter is that he has little choice. His bosses want to see significant top line and bottom line increases, especially top line revenue. But the top quality men's footwear industry is not a high sales volume market. So, to achieve significant sales growth he must do the things he has been doing.
> That is, offering trendy styling, lower priced 'collections", taking either full shoe or partial production to the Dominican Republic, volume private label manufacturing, putting the AE name on non footwear product categories, owning and operating a large number of AE brand boutique concept stores, frequent promotional discounts etc... This is the typical evolution from exclusive prestigious brand to main stream market.


You really should quit while you're behind.

Most of the "facts" you reference are at best your opinions, at worst, they are attacks based on one off issues, second or third hand accounts, or simply just mean spirited rants. And any constructive views - positive or negative - that you may have on this topic have long ago been lost in the vitriol.

Personally, I do agree that AE could benefit from the introduction of sleeker shoes (including the option of marginally thinner soles) and the reintroduction of some of the bygone models that have been referenced. However, I am also not under the delusion that AE makes shoes just for me.

Bye the bye, I really don't care if you like his shoes or not, whether you like him or not, whether you like me or not, or which type of dog you had growing up. Give it a freaking rest, my man.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Bjorn said:


> However, some of us may indeed feel they should forfeit the largest part of the marketplace. Mercedes does not do cheap cars. Ferrari does not do slow cars. Crockett and Jones does not do comfy Ecco shoes. No firm I know of successfully makes all kinds of shoes. That would be a conglomerate of sorts. Inertia could set in and prevent innovation within the marketplace I find relevant (classic shoes). There could be a lack of focus. Critiquing going in that direction is not irrelevant in regards to the OPs referenced reddit discussion.
> 
> Have AE abolished core models? Perhaps not. But do we enjoy the focus on casualisation? I don't. Relevant feedback, I don't know. Relevant discussion on this forum, sure.


Actually, AE comes remarkably close now to making all kinds of shoes. I'm not familiar with another maker that has the same diversity--boat shoes, golf shoes, driving shoes, loafers, oxfords, bucks, formal shoes, casual shoes, etc.--as AE. That said, I suspect I know what you're talking about. It can be tough for a company to maintain quality standards if it branches out in all directions. We'll have to see.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> However, some of us may indeed feel they should forfeit the largest part of the marketplace. Mercedes does not do cheap cars. Ferrari does not do slow cars.


Mercedes owns Chrysler. Fiat own Ferrari. Care to rethink your position?



> Crockett and Jones does not do comfy Ecco shoes. No firm I know of successfully makes all kinds of shoes. That would be a conglomerate of sorts. Inertia could set in and prevent innovation within the marketplace I find relevant (classic shoes). There could be a lack of focus. Critiquing going in that direction is not irrelevant in regards to the OPs referenced reddit discussion.
> 
> Have AE abolished core models? Perhaps not. But do we enjoy the focus on casualisation? I don't. Relevant feedback, I don't know. Relevant discussion on this forum, sure.


I think that comparing quality shoes and quality cars can go a bit sideways, because one is more of an art and one is more of a science.


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Bjorn said:


> However, some of us may indeed feel they should forfeit the largest part of the marketplace. Mercedes does not do cheap cars. Ferrari does not do slow cars. Crockett and Jones does not do comfy Ecco shoes. No firm I know of successfully makes all kinds of shoes. That would be a conglomerate of sorts. Inertia could set in and prevent innovation within the marketplace I find relevant (classic shoes). There could be a lack of focus. Critiquing going in that direction is not irrelevant in regards to the OPs referenced reddit discussion.
> 
> Have AE abolished core models? Perhaps not. But do we enjoy the focus on casualisation? I don't. Relevant feedback, I don't know. Relevant discussion on this forum, sure.


It's good feedback and I appreciate it. We do have to be careful to design and produce our more casual shoes consistent with our heritage, craftsmanship and quality levels. They have to be commercializable, too, or else they're useless to all.

We do go through our old catalogues and pick out styles to revitalize. The newly introduced Jomoc is one of those (it's based directly on the old Jodoc, worn with his dress uniform by many an officer in WW II). It has the profile in front of a bit of a chukka boot, without being up around the ankles on the sides. We also have a new shoe coming out in Spring called the "Rogue", from deep in our catalogs and, literally, inspired by an old sales poster that my former assistant found in the attic of the house her son has rented. It's a more casual looking (due to the larger sized perfs of the model) brogued cap toe with pinked edges, but it's still very dressy and versatile. It's a blucher, not unlike the example posted on this page above, except for the 1940s size of the perfs. I love them. I'm wearing the Jomocs a lot now, too.

I like the car company analogy myself and use it often. Of the Germans, BMW or Audi is the better expample for AE to work to emulate, I think, though. Mercedes is playing catch up to both of the other companies, interestingly. And I'd point out that the new Mercedes model is the sole focus of their current advertising during NFL games, and that model sells for less than $50,000. They still sell the upper end models for prices in the high 5 and 6 figures, but they are both aggressively pursuing entry level buyers as well trying to build broader brand loyalty and greater market share with cars priced dead against the better versions of much less prestigious brands. This car looks like a Mercedes for sure, but it's not an $85,000 car on which they have built their image. Interesting to watch.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

All I can add is that day before yesterday I took advantage of your excellent sale to buy two pairs of Kenilworths for my stepson--one pair for his birthday, the other for Xmas (which is three days after his birthday). I consider this a vote of confidence in A-E. We shall now have 52 pairs of A-Es in our household--43 for me, nine for my boy. If I could rationalize buying more A-Es for myself, I would do so!


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Lighter AEs could be cool, but I'm not sure I "get" the removable insole.

I hear what some of y'all are saying about the line-up -- I think some of us would be very pleased if they had a Crockett & Jones type line-up of many minute variations on traditional styles, with very little turnover from season to season. But that hasn't really _ever_ been AE's game -- they've always sold a mixture of classic stuff and fashionable stuff.

Also, thanks for swinging through on here, Mr. Grangaard. I've _worked_ for companies that gave us less information about their plans, and I'm excited to see some of the styles you've dropped hints about. I have a few materials questions, if you don't mind:

Am I noticing a decrease in the number of shoes in grain leather, over the last year or so? Is that a supply thing, or a stylistic choice?

Also, I am starting to see more shoes in saddle leather, which is cool. May I ask if that's a cowhide or a calfskin?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

I believe some of us suffer from the well know psychological fallacy that we believe most people think the way we do.

While one may fancy Carminas rather than Eccos does not lead one to conclude that many people share that view. Each season AE makes samples of prospective styles and sees how many orders for that style it will get from its independent retailers and wholesale accounts. If it fails to get sufficient orders it doesn't get produced.

Some of us may remember a few years ago when AE looked into producing a bal boot. Prototype samples were made, a few members here wound up with a few, but retailers and wholesale accounts didn't have an interest. The boot was not produced although a later attempt at a dress boot , the Fifth Street, finally made it into production. That the Fifth Street is now only seasonal shows it didn't fly that high.

Some may remember the Augusta, a 270 welt made on a sleek last

https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...eunv&.crumb=ZD2ws8hz34K&fr=mcafee&fr2=piv-web

To my mind, this came from looking toward Carmina, but it didn't sell and soon was on closeout. (I bought a pair and had them dyed black, not your everyday Park Ave. bal.) The fact is American men as a whole prefer blobby, heavier, more substantial dress shoes.

It seems there are many more prospects looking toward Echo. This is not AEs doing, but they would be fools not to look that way. If AE can take something of use from Echo that does not mean they will wind up making Echo clones.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

vpkozel said:


> Mercedes owns Chrysler. Fiat own Ferrari. Care to rethink your position?
> I think that comparing quality shoes and quality cars can go a bit sideways, because one is more of an art and one is more of a science.





AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> I like the car company analogy myself and use it often. Of the Germans, BMW or Audi is the better expample for AE to work to emulate, I think, though.


Audi--or rather its parent company Volkswagen--is particularly relevant. It is the number 2 automaker in the world and its lineup includes Skoda, VW, Audi, Porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Bugatti. I read somewhere that VW makes a few hundred bucks on a Golf and $10,000 on a Porsche; God knows what the markup is above that. Clearly, a company can have a diverse product line and be successful--but beyond that it is a mistake to conflate prestige with quality and/or value. Want quality and value? Buy a Honda. Prestige and style also important and willing to spend more? Get an Audi, BMW, Lexus, or Acura--and another pair of AE.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

DG123 said:


> If I was trying to "hide behind the group" I would have posted effusive nonsense. Rather than do that I gave the AE boss constructive criticism. The truth is that he is leading his company down the same path which Johnston and Murphy and Florsheim have followed.


Says who? Show me the made in the USA, high quality cordovan or independence line equivalent on the J&M and Florsheim site.



DG123 said:


> If he wants AE to be an honest quality brand he should be focused not on expanding sales volume, but on training workers to make better quality shoes.


So now you are handing out not just shoe design and construction advice, but also business advice - to a highly successful CEO? LOL. OK.



DG123 said:


> In the longer term the brand integrity suffers.


Is that what your vast experience in the shoe and clothing business tells you?

The brand integrity only suffers IF, the company stops making its flagship core offerings. As long as you can buy made in the USA cordovan Park Ave shoes - I could care less if they sell sport jackets and ties.


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## JeffTL (Aug 7, 2012)

Mr. Grangaard,

I'd just like to say that I really appreciate AE's work with removable insole shoes. As an orthotic wearer, shoes with a removable footbed usually work the best for me - my Bentons are my most comfortable shoes, though I'd really appreciate more styles than that and the Ashton being available in a similar format. As an employee of a department store that carries a limited but broad selection of Allen Edmonds products in a medium width - you probably know the one I mean - I have also been able to take advantage of the fact that I typically wear a B width and can therefore often get a good fit by putting an insert inside a D shoe, particularly the Park Avenue but even the Wilbert (the Poron underneath gets a bit mushy, but it still feels better than the Eccos and Rockports I used to wear). I of course understand that putting an orthotic in a wider width may not work for all combinations of last shape and actual foot shape, and I know that I feel best in a shoe designed for orthotic use, so I am looking forward to trying and probably buying the new lightweight orthotic models around the bend. There is certainly nothing wrong with experimenting with sole materials to see what works best - and the PU that Ecco uses, for example, offers a great combination of lightness, durability, and comfort. I think there's a good market for something with the comfort properties of Ecco, for example, but with recraftability and better style.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Thank you Mr. Graangard for responding here .

I tried and tried to get AE shoes that fit me. The customer service was fabulous. AE makes beautiful shoes, I just wish I could have made them fit.

But I found out finally that the Alden Modified Last is what works for my high instep and narrow heel. (Also learned along the way that "width" is really circumference.)

I believe that AE use to have a "combination last", which allowed for different widths in heel and forefoot.

Maybe the new design that will accommodate an orthotic will help, but I suspect I will still have a problem with heel slipping.

What is your feeling about the combination last ? Too complicated ? Too small a market ? Returns problematic ?

Here are a few pics from my visit to Port Washington earlier this year:


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)




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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

I'm a bit late to this thread...
For those that don't know me, I havebeen in the repair biz for over 40 years. 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] gen.
I have been familiar with Allen Edmondsproducts on a regular basis for four decades.
When I first started, AE was among themost prestigious U.S. brand American made shoes. As time evolved,getting into the early 2000's, I noticed quality started to drop. Isay this because customers would come in with fairly new AE's. Heelswere popping off, soles were separating, welts would fail and,more....Further, I noticed AE was not showing any vision for present-or-future. Customer service from what I heard at the time wascomplacent. AE was in a decline.

Then I heard that Goldner, Hern,Johnson & Morrison purchased the magiority interest in AE. At thetime I didn't know what to expect for the future of AE. Would theygo off-shore, would they sell off the parts, what else could happen?

Mr. Grangaard was a cheif excutive withGHJM at the time. He was very hands-on throughout the transaction. Ionly knew that GHJM took on a company had a repution in decline(deservedly so).

Shortly after the deal was consumatedthe (then) CEO of AE resigned. Mr. Grangaard was asked to take overthat position on a temporary basis until a permenent CEO could befound. While in their search Mr. G. saw more of a future and visionto restore AE to the prestigious company it was in the past.
From what I hear in the industry, Heasked off the board of GHJM to be permenint CEO and Pres. Of AE. Theygranted Him That.

I must add, shortly after thetransaction I noticed a decline regarding AE defects.

Mr. G. grew the company. From what Ican see, they were looking to raise capital in order to grow itfurtuer. There were false reports on who was going going to purchaseit.

In the end.....Brentwood Associatesclosed the deal retaininng Mr. G. as CEO.

The brand will move further.

I admire Mr. G's dedication to thebrand. He certainly has made a commitment further than I suspect thenay-sayers of his brand would do regarding their careers.

You can read more about the facts here:

https://www.jsonline.com/business/a...in-port-washington-b99135030z1-230562761.html


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

DG123 said:


> I asked the AE boss a question about the fit differences between MTO and stock production line. He gave a partially correct answer (technique used by employee doing the lasting), but he did not own up to the reason. That is, *lack of employee training*.






Dmontez said:


> I think everyone on this forum agrees that they do not love the fashion forward/trendy stuff, but AE is trying to get a bigger piece of that market. I can not fault them for that. I am well under 40, and I would not wear much or any of the stuff that AE is pushing to that crowd, but I understand why there are trying. As long as AE keeps up with their core models I will still praise them, and point newcomers into the AE direction.
> 
> Your comment about them looking at higher quality brands rather than Ecco is constructive criticism, but *DG123 flat out attacked Mr. Grangaard and the employees* before even asking a question that could be responded to by Mr. Grangaard in regards to "diminishing quality" that he spoke of.


^ This. Bjorn should not lump himself in with DG123. I mean, I offered the guy a fake internet hug and he "flat out" ignored it!


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

Jovan said:


> Bjorn should not lump himself in with DG123. I mean, I offered the guy a fake internet hug and he "flat out" ignored it!


That's because you used the wrong Doctor for this situation:


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

I think that Mr. Grangaard has made an excellent decision with one of the new lines being proposed. Although I agree that AE may not be able to realistically produce shoes in varying styles that will be satisfactory to all consumers and various demographic groups, he can try to fulfill the needs of his consumers. I have many patients who enjoy a quality and stylish shoe, but also have some foot or ankle pathology that limits their choices. Many of my patients have worn AE for decades, and are now faced with a situation of finding a quality shoe that will accommodate their present foot or ankle pathology. Yes, I treat many patients weekly who have plantar fasciitis, in addition to performing reconstructive foot and ankle surgery weekly. Many of these patients are successful business men who prefer not to wear a Rockport, Ecco, Mephisto, or similar style "comfort" shoe. They have been loyal AE customers and constantly ask me for recommendations regarding this basically non existent market. I see it as AE continuing it's loyalty to it's customers who now need a shoe that can accommodate orthoses, provide additional support, etc. I personally look forward to this line of shoes for my patients, and can assure Mr. Grangaard that he will be getting many referrals from me and the other docs in our practice.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Nick V said:


> I'm a bit late to this thread...
> For those that don't know me, I havebeen in the repair biz for over 40 years. 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] gen.
> I have been familiar with Allen Edmondsproducts on a regular basis for four decades.
> When I first started, AE was among themost prestigious U.S. brand American made shoes. As time evolved,getting into the early 2000's, I noticed quality started to drop. Isay this because customers would come in with fairly new AE's. Heelswere popping off, soles were separating, welts would fail and,more....Further, I noticed AE was not showing any vision for present-or-future. Customer service from what I heard at the time wascomplacent. AE was in a decline.
> ...


"An IPO is not out of the question."

Yikes.

Sometimes, the only thing worse than ownership by a PE firm is public ownership, which can increase pressure for short-term gain at the expense of long-range vision. Of course, that can also happen with PE firms, but the last person you want at your stockholders' meeting is a fellow like Icahn.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

DocD said:


> They have been loyal AE customers and constantly ask me for recommendations regarding this basically non existent market. I see it as AE continuing it's loyalty to it's customers who now need a shoe that can accommodate orthoses, provide additional support, etc. I personally look forward to this line of shoes for my patients, and can assure Mr. Grangaard that he will be getting many referrals from me and the other docs in our practice.


There are a few orthopedic oriented footwear companies that have been around for a long time, namely PW Mnor , Drew Shoe, and Markell Shoe www.pwminor.com , www.drewshoe.com www.markellshoe.com


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

DG123 said:


> namely PW Minor


PW Minor closed up shop this summer: https://www.democratandchronicle.co...ar-old-shoe-company-batavia-closing/10707707/
I know they made the trench boots for Oak Street Bootmakers as well. (Highland makes OSB's other shoes.) I haven't followed it enough to have heard who is making for OSB now, but obviously they have someone.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Fred G. Unn said:


> PW Minor closed up shop this summer: https://www.democratandchronicle.co...ar-old-shoe-company-batavia-closing/10707707/
> I know they made the trench boots for Oak Street Bootmakers as well. (Highland makes OSB's other shoes.) I haven't followed it enough to have heard who is making for OSB now, but obviously they have someone.


I went to the link but do believe PW Minor is still doing business. 
Here is an updated link:

https://www.democratandchronicle.co...inor-shoe-factory-batavia-stay-open/14011511/


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

DG123 said:


> There are a few orthopedic oriented footwear companies that have been around for a long time, namely PW Mnor , Drew Shoe, and Markell Shoe www.pwminor.com , www.drewshoe.com www.markellshoe.com


Thank you, I'm well aware of those companies and many more. But the main point of my reply was that finding a fashionable shoe in the "comfort" shoe genre is an oxymoron. Most comfort shoes will simply not satisfy someone who wears AE shoes (or similar) but now needs something a little more adaptable to a particular foot or ankle pathology. So as previously stated, offering a relatively stylish, quality AE shoe with the features mentioned may be ideal for loyal AE wearers who now need that option. Yes, there are a plethora of companies who make "comfort" shoes, but usually at the expense of "style". Hopefully the new AE line will fill that void, and will not simply be another "ugly" comfort shoe.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

DocD said:


> Thank you, I'm well aware of those companies and many more. But the main point of my reply was that finding a fashion let shoe in the "comfort" shoe genre is an oxymoron. Most comfort shoes will simply not satisfy someone who wears AE shoes (or similar) but now needs something a little more adaptable to a particular foot or ankle pathology. So as previously stated, offering a relatively stylish, quality AE shoe with the features mentioned may be ideal for loyal AE wearers who now need that option. Yes, there are a plethora of companies who make "comfort" shoes, but usually at the expense of "style". Hopefully the new AE line will fill that void, and will not simply be another "ugly" comfort shoe.


PW Minor, Drew, and Markell are specialized in producing orthopedic and therapeutic footwear. Markell in particular does not even sell shoes outside of the medical industry.


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

DG123 said:


> I went to the link but do believe PW Minor is still doing business.
> Here is an updated link:
> 
> https://www.democratandchronicle.co...inor-shoe-factory-batavia-stay-open/14011511/


Ok thanks, I missed that. I wonder if they are still making boots for OSB or if OSB found another manufacturer in the meantime.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

DG123 said:


> PW Minor, Drew, and Markell are specialized in producing orthopedic and therapeutic footwear. Markell in particular does not even sell shoes outside of the medical industry.


Sorry, I'm not sure of why you repeated your post and I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make. I've been in practice for over 25 years and as previously stated, I am well aware of these companies and the market they serve and the products they offer. Please understand that my comments regarding AE offering an alternative shoe was addressing the fact that many men, including many of my patients, do not like the choices offered by the companies you've mentioned and may find a more acceptable shoe if offered by AE that MAY have some similarities to other AE shoes they may have owned in the past. My point is simple. For the most part the manufacturers you've mentioned and several others do not offer a very stylish dress shoe that would be worn by many businessmen or execs who have formerly worn AEs. If AE can offer a stylish shoe with the quality of AE that can accommodate the needs of many with foot or ankle ailments, they may have a hit.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Fred G. Unn said:


> Ok thanks, I missed that. I wonder if they are still making boots for OSB or if OSB found another manufacturer in the meantime.


What is OSB ?


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

Oak Street Bootmaker


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

DocD said:


> Sorry, I'm not sure of why you repeated your post and I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make. I've been in practice for over 25 years and as previously stated, I am well aware of these companies and the market they serve and the products they offer. Please understand that my comments regarding AE offering an alternative shoe was addressing the fact that many men, including many of my patients, do not like the choices offered by the companies you've mentioned and may find a more acceptable shoe if offered by AE that MAY have some similarities to other AE shoes they may have owned in the past. My point is simple. For the most part the manufacturers you've mentioned and several others do not offer a very stylish dress shoe that would be worn by many businessmen or execs who have formerly worn AEs. If AE can offer a stylish shoe with the quality of AE that can accommodate the needs of many with foot or ankle ailments, they may have a hit.


I will note than Drew has a line of decent looking shoes called Dino Monti, which are made in Italy. However, they are Blake stitched and all have somewhat of a chisel toe. They look classic, but Euro, and are not everyone's cup of tea. They also run about $500 a pair, which is a bit much for Blake shoes. I have a pair that I bought on clearance for probably $250, and they are worth about that. The AE orthotic shoes I have are nicer, in leather quality, style, and construction.

I would always prefer to buy an AE Goodyear welted shoe with a nice round toe for under $400, if I have that option.

I do have a pair of PW minor PTB's as well. They are very nice, but also very casual. People think they are the high end Redwings. I would never wear them with a suit, or even a sport jacket.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> Frankly, some of you depress me at the end of a long day. Really? Have we discontinued the black Park Avenue on you? Isn't it my team and I who brought back the Strand, the McAllister and the Fifth Avenue, who developed the Mora and the Dalton boot, who introduced greater classic colors, who took quality -- and finishing especially -- to higher levels, who introduced the Independence Collection using the finest shoe materials available, and who are doing Group MTOs of classic styles on StyleForum? Haven't we just brought back the great American penny loafer look in our Cavanaugh style, a style that others in Maine used to do but long ago switched to China and materials that don't much look like leather anymore? Do I seem, 6 years into this role, like I march to a profits-only drum? No taste, no design sensibilities, no appreciation for or commitment to our heritage, our authenticity, our core products and, most importantly, our core customer base? Have you seen the lighter weight shoes that will "kill the brand", in your opinion, or might they just be really good, and really better than other "comfort shoes" on the market. Should we forfeit the biggest part of the marketplace or instead try to bring classic styling and high quality materials to it? Should so many great American companies have stopped at their original successes and not expanded or evolved with time and trends? Does serving a broader customer base and more customer needs really mean a degradation of the brand? Do we look like we're becoming an off-shore, China-made company -- with our US employment higher than it has ever been in our 92 year history, and still growing above macro trends? Do you think smart private equity people would buy the company if they didn't think there was still a lot of opportunity for our core products? Guys, I consider you friends as much as that's possible in this forum. Be fair, please.


Paul, I applaud what you say. Very well said. You have my support and always will. I have said this before, and it bears repeating, when one factors in price, quality, selection and customer service, no one in the world of menswear (and that means NOT just in the shoe business) can touch AE. No one. Not even close. When I returned from France in 2010, you built me a Fifth Street Boot in burgundy calf, with a JR sole and eye hooks for the top 3 rows of laces and you 1) did not charge me a deposit; 2) did not charge me any shipping; and 3) and did not charge me any "customization" fees. The price was $325.00 all in. I can't count the compliments I have had on those shoes. On top of that, I must have spent 45 minutes in the SF Sutter Street store figuring out my size with the staff. They were all as cordial and polite and professional as ever. My best to you and AE. (And by the way, I own 4 AE shirts too.)


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

32rollandrock said:


> "An IPO is not out of the question."
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> Sometimes, the only thing worse than ownership by a PE firm is public ownership, which can increase pressure for short-term gain at the expense of long-range vision. Of course, that can also happen with PE firms, but the last person you want at your stockholders' meeting is a fellow like Icahn.


A'int going to happen here....Just got a CEO willing to sacrifice in order to build (re-build) an American institution. Long term goals and a commitment to them.


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## polojock615 (Feb 14, 2012)

Speaking of the GMTO program, here is the link for the burgundy shell Strand.. https://www.styleforum.net/t/381983/the-allen-edmonds-mto-thread/3570#post_7432017


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

127.72 MHz said:


> Maybe "We've spelled doom" but I haven't,...
> 
> https://hub.aa.com/en/aw/paul-grangaard-allen-edmonds
> 
> I'm one of those fellas in the article.


All the pennies have dropped after reading that. I know you guys.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

I regret only that my 20+ pairs of AEs are more than I will ever need. The Leeds in shell are probably my favorite shoe. Long did I wait for an AE running shoe, but now my knees have failed me. Still, looking at the PA with the spiked golf sole gives me hope. Tennis, maybe? Croquet? 

Too bad a member or two hasn't realized that when you're already up to your eyeballs it's a good idea to stop digging. It's dark down there, and lonesome.


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## frosejr (Mar 27, 2010)

DG123 said:


> I gave the AE boss constructive criticism.


No you didn't, you ranted like a little brat, and then when he called you out, you ran away like a little girl.

He owned you, and he wasn't even trying very hard.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

frosejr said:


> No you didn't, you ranted like a little brat, and then when he called you out, you ran away like a little girl.
> 
> He owned you, and he wasn't even trying very hard.


Lmao!! Crap! Where is Jovan with a timely PWND gif??


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^^Whooooaaa,....The gloves are off!!

:aportnoy:


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

drlivingston said:


> Lmao!! Crap! Where is Jovan with a timely PWND gif??


He'll be coming along soon enough I suspect.


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## frosejr (Mar 27, 2010)

drlivingston said:


> Lmao!! Crap! Where is Jovan with a timely PWND gif??


LOL

He's the reason we can't have nice things.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

frosejr said:


> No you didn't, you ranted like a little brat, and then when he called you out, you ran away like a little girl.
> 
> He owned you, and he wasn't even trying very hard.


Actually, he side stepped the question of why there is such a significant fit difference between the stock production line and MTO line. I did not believe he knew the answer and as it turned out, such is the case. Allen Edmonds CEO does not have a shoe industry background and that in itself is a reason for some of the ongoing quality related issues of the brand. His expertise is in finance, not footwear, and the moves he has made reflect that. The company is now geared towards increasing sales through a broader product line and wider spread distribution. That strategy is inherently against the business of high quality shoe manufacturing.
Those here who suggested that AE was following the path led by Florsheim and Johnston and Murphy are exactly correct. But in fairness to AE CEO, he really does have little choice. His bosses expect significantly higher sales revenues, and the only way to achieve that is through the initiatives he has deployed . Yes, the brand's integrity will suffer from the current strategy, but that is the cost of selling out.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ I can understand you doubling down on your rant. 
Actually he did NOT sidestep your highly subjective, biased question. You began the interaction with your mind made up.

Most any manufacture of a mature product has different lines for a given price point. The fact that product lines may be designed to fit a given price point does not necessarily indicate a compromise in quality across the entire product range. You failed, and continue to fail, to recognize this fact.

Paul Grangaard may not come from a shoe industry background but after several years heading up Allen Edmonds I dare say his background in shoes far exceeds yours.

Other American manufactures have lost their soul while trying to diversify their product range. The thread is about members expressing concern having watched what happened to Florsheim and Johnston and Murphy. Bottom line, time will tell.

While you're entitled to your *subjective opinion* your interactions with Paul Grangaard were plainly rude. Undoubtedly you disagree.

Here's a fact, you lack credibility.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

DG123 said:


> Actually, he side stepped the question of why there is such a significant fit difference between the stock production line and MTO line. I did not believe he knew the answer and as it turned out, such is the case. Allen Edmonds CEO does not have a shoe industry background and that in itself is a reason for some of the ongoing quality related issues of the brand. His expertise is in finance, not footwear, and the moves he has made reflect that. The company is now geared towards increasing sales through a broader product line and wider spread distribution. That strategy is inherently against the business of high quality shoe manufacturing.
> Those here who suggested that AE was following the path led by Florsheim and Johnston and Murphy are exactly correct. But in fairness to AE CEO, he really does have little choice. His bosses expect significantly higher sales revenues, and the only way to achieve that is through the initiatives he has deployed . Yes, the brand's integrity will suffer from the current strategy, but that is the cost of selling out.


----------



## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

DG123 said:


> Actually, he side stepped the question of why there is such a significant fit difference between the stock production line and MTO line. I did not believe he knew the answer and as it turned out, such is the case. Allen Edmonds CEO does not have a shoe industry background and that in itself is a reason for some of the ongoing quality related issues of the brand. His expertise is in finance, not footwear, and the moves he has made reflect that. The company is now geared towards increasing sales through a broader product line and wider spread distribution. That strategy is inherently against the business of high quality shoe manufacturing.
> Those here who suggested that AE was following the path led by Florsheim and Johnston and Murphy are exactly correct. But in fairness to AE CEO, he really does have little choice. His bosses expect significantly higher sales revenues, and the only way to achieve that is through the initiatives he has deployed . Yes, the brand's integrity will suffer from the current strategy, but that is the cost of selling out.


I know Paul. He's a friend of mine. We get together from time to time and talk shop. We exchange ideas and experiences. He helps me and I help him. He is sincere, open-minded and, is very dedicated to the AE brand. His willingness and the outstanding customer service department is evidence to that.
If you are accusing him of his expanding the market as being a bad thing. That holds no merit. My Father wore AEs. 40 years ago when I was 18 I wouldn't be caught dead in a pair. Now I can go into an AE store with my youngest son (19) he can find a selection of offerings at his price-points that he is attracted to and I can do the same for me. Is there anything wrong with that??? Further...I'll repeat, I see far fewer faults in the quality of AE's production these days then I saw when G.H.J & M. purchased AE in 2006. And while we are on that subject, you state "but that is the cost of selling out". You should know that Paul was very involved and on the board at G.H.J & M overseeing the transaction. He was asked to be interim CEO of AE when the then CEO stepped down until a successor was found.
He saw the potential and found such a love for running the company that he asked off the board at G.H.J. & M. to become permanent CEO. He was granted that request. That's a commitment! He further grew the company and was looking to raise cash to grow it further. A deal was struck between G.H.J.&M. to sell AE to Brentwood Associates. Part of the agreement was that Paul would stay on as CEO and keep his management team in place. If Paul's intentions were to "sell out" I suppose he would have had several opportunities to do just that from the time that G.H.J. & M. first made the purchase till it was sold to Brentwood and chances during that 8 year period.
So, you have the original firm that made an investment, got a handsome ROI. They were happy. A new investment firm that sees very good growth potential.
Paul retains leadership with a cash infusion to be used for further growth of the company. An expanded market with improvement in the quality of their product supported by excellent customer service. And, let's not forget more jobs for U.S. workers.
That's not to say that these things were happening (in part) during an economic down-turn.

And you have the balls to PRINT that "AE was (is) following the path led by Florsheim and Johnston and Murphy"?
I can only conclude that for whatever reason you have a bone to pick with AE, -or- you don't know what you are talking about. I suspect both.
Either way your comments were based by your speculation supported by no evidence what-so-ever. In short you have no idea what you are talking about. I doubt that many, if any, on this forum bought into your wasted hot air. A bigger MAN would apologize but, I don't suppose you are big enough to do that.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

+1. Game over. Nick says it all.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Nick V said:


> I know Paul. He's a friend of mine. We get together from time to time and talk shop. We exchange ideas and experiences. He helps me and I help him. He is sincere, open-minded and, is very dedicated to the AE brand. His willingness and the outstanding customer service department is evidence to that.
> If you are accusing him of his expanding the market as being a bad thing. That holds no merit. My Father wore AEs. 40 years ago when I was 18 I wouldn't be caught dead in a pair. Now I can go into an AE store with my youngest son (19) he can find a selection of offerings at his price-points that he is attracted to and I can do the same for me. Is there anything wrong with that??? Further...I'll repeat, I see far fewer faults in the quality of AE's production these days then I saw when G.H.J & M. purchased AE in 2006. And while we are on that subject, you state "but that is the cost of selling out". You should know that Paul was very involved and on the board at G.H.J & M overseeing the transaction. He was asked to be interim CEO of AE when the then CEO stepped down until a successor was found.
> He saw the potential and found such a love for running the company that he asked off the board at G.H.J. & M. to become permanent CEO. He was granted that request. That's a commitment! He further grew the company and was looking to raise cash to grow it further. A deal was struck between G.H.J.&M. to sell AE to Brentwood Associates. Part of the agreement was that Paul would stay on as CEO and keep his management team in place. If Paul's intentions were to "sell out" I suppose he would have had several opportunities to do just that from the time that G.H.J. & M. first made the purchase till it was sold to Brentwood and chances during that 8 year period.
> So, you have the original firm that made an investment, got a handsome ROI. They were happy. A new investment firm that sees very good growth potential.
> ...


#1 "selling out" doesn't have to mean ownership change, It is is a process, including the exploitation of a brand name by using it on inferior products
#2 if you are a shoe repair man, rather than copying and pasting a biography of AE's management, you should probably have focused your essay here on shoe details, such as leather quality and the merits of using a shank for shoe construction

Hope this helps.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

DG123 said:


> #1 "selling out" doesn't have to mean ownership change, It is is a process, including the exploitation of a brand name by using it on inferior products
> #2 if you are a shoe repair man, rather than copying and pasting a biography of AE's management, you should probably have focused your essay here on shoe details, such as leather quality and the merits of using a shank for shoe construction
> 
> Hope this helps.
> #3


Well, by all means, "the shoe repair man" should probably defer to your vastly superior knowledge of shoe construction techniques. I mean, after all you knew so much that you could construct a highly biased and ,for all intents and purposes, an entirely unanswerable question, that SHOCKINGLY was not answered to your satisfaction.

Yep, you are all over it sport.

Stop digging. Please. Pretty please?


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ 
*"Exploitation of a brand name by using it on inferior product." *Why do you refuse to recognize the fact that different product lines to fit a price point does not necessarily mean loss of quality throughout an entire product range?

Are you dense or perhaps not reading anything other then your own posts? Do you refuse to see that Allen Edmonds creating lower priced lines *might *not mean a compromise to quality of their top lines?

#3, It does help. It helps to further clarify that you're full of hot air.

Just keep shoving your foot further into your mouth, you fool.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

DG123 said:


> #1 "selling out" doesn't have to mean ownership change, It is is a process, including the exploitation of a brand name by using it on inferior products
> #2 if you are a shoe repair man, rather than copying and pasting a biography of AE's management, you should probably have focused your essay here on shoe details, such as leather quality and the merits of using a shank for shoe construction
> 
> Hope this helps.
> #3


Dude, seriously... You are doing far worse than grasping right now. It is literally painful to watch. Your quirky insights have devolved into the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic. Find another battle to fight. This one is over.


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

I have been to three different shoe repair shops in the past two years. The first one told me my Florsheims were crap (they were) and recommended AE. The next two (heel plates on two different pairs) bordered on reverence for AE. I suspect Nick V knows what he's talking about.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

LOL. Jeez Louise, I can't take it any more. I'm placing my order for a pair of those wonderful Bleeker Street Chukkas this very afternoon. I tried to resist the temptation...I really did! AE continues to be well loved in the Eagles perch.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

vpkozel said:


> Well, by all means, "the shoe repair man" should probably defer to your vastly superior knowledge of shoe construction techniques. I mean, after all you knew so much that you could construct a highly biased and ,for all intents and purposes, an entirely unanswerable question, that SHOCKINGLY was not answered to your satisfaction.
> 
> Yep, you are all over it sport.
> 
> Stop digging. Please. Pretty please?


How is a question asking the difference between stock line assembly production and MTO production "biased" or "unanswerable" ?


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

DG123 said:


> How is a question asking the difference between stock line assembly production and MTO production "biased" or "unanswerable" ?


Dude, you are like the Energizer Bunny of perpetual cluelessness.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

WICaniac said:


> I have been to three different shoe repair shops in the past two years. The first one told me my Florsheims were crap (they were) and recommended AE. The next two (heel plates on two different pairs) bordered on reverence for AE. I suspect Nick V knows what he's talking about.


Nick the shoe repair man proclaimed that his son liked the styling and lower price of some AE shoes. That is fine but what does that have to do with AE's quality?
I expect the shoe repair shops you frequent like AE because their shoes have potential for repair business. I know my local repair shop does. I am lucky to get 10 wears out of a pair of AE shoes before the rubber heel caps need replacing with a Vibram or Topy brand rubber heel cap, which lasts about 3 times as long as the poor quality rubber heel caps found on AE stock dress shoes. A $400 shoe should include reasonable quality rubber heel caps.
If Nick the shoe repair man wants to be of some help to the AE CEO he could probably do so. As I suggested before, two primary subjects for discussion should be leather quality and the merits of constructing shoes with a shank.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

127.72 MHz said:


> ^^
> *"Exploitation of a brand name by using it on inferior product." *Why do you refuse to recognize the fact that different product lines to fit a price point does not necessarily mean loss of quality throughout an entire product range?
> 
> .


No other footwear company has ever been able to achieve what you suggest. For general business purposes this has to do with a company's culture, standards, and brand image. For a shoe manufacturing company specifically, it has to do with sourcing materials, training and experience of manufacturing employees etc...


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Can always count on Nick for the straight goods. DG, isn't that axe ground down to the nub yet?


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

DG123 said:


> How is a question asking the difference between stock line assembly production and MTO production "biased" or "unanswerable" ?


Because that isn't the question you asked.

I have given up trying to get you to stop making a fool of yourself though. But to paraphrase Martin Brody, "you're gonna need a bigger shovel...."


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

DG123 said:


> Nick the shoe repair man proclaimed that his son liked the styling and lower price of some AE shoes. That is fine but what does that have to do with AE's quality?
> I expect the shoe repair shops you frequent like AE because their shoes have potential for repair business. I know my local repair shop does. I am lucky to get 10 wears out of a pair of AE shoes before the rubber heel caps need replacing with a Vibram or Topy brand rubber heel cap, which lasts about 3 times as long as the poor quality rubber heel caps found on AE stock dress shoes. A $400 shoe should include reasonable quality rubber heel caps.
> If Nick the shoe repair man wants to be of some help to the AE CEO he could probably do so. As I suggested before, two primary subjects for discussion should be leather quality and the merits of constructing shoes with a shank.


If you feel this way, why do you wear AE shoes? If you are so dissatisfied and own more than one pair than you have yourself to blame. No one who has experienced a failure after 10 or less wears would ever have to keep those shoes. AE would repair or replace them. That's a fact.

From your remarks, it seems you are familiar enough with AE to have purchased more than one shoe. If you dislike them that much, and have continued to purchase them then you are a fool.

No one is twisting your arm to like or buy AE. So give it a rest. I find your entire rants disbelievable. You cannot be an AE owner and be so angry, so I smell a troll heaping bullshit. Your conduct toward Mr. Grangaard was despicable, and now you continue to extend your rudness to fellow forum members. Enough already.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

momsdoc said:


> If you feel this way, why do you wear AE shoes? If you are so dissatisfied and own more than one pair than you have yourself to blame. No one who has experienced a failure after 10 or less wears would ever have to keep those shoes. AE would repair or replace them. That's a fact.
> 
> From your remarks, it seems you are familiar enough with AE to have purchased more than one shoe. If you dislike them that much, and have continued to purchase them then you are a fool.
> 
> No one is twisting your arm to like or buy AE. So give it a rest. I find your entire rants disbelievable. You cannot be an AE owner and be so angry, so I smell a troll heaping bullshit. Your conduct toward Mr. Grangaard was despicable, and now you continue to extend your rudness to fellow forum members. Enough already.


Where did I write that I "dislike" AE shoes ? You might consider working on your reading comprehension skills.
I wear the brand because it is one of the only ones offered in my size, a B width. AE, like all companies has its strengths and weaknesses.
My conduct towards AE CEO was not "despicable". In fact I have offered him helpful, constructive criticism. Any truly professional CEO should appreciate and respect that.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

^^^

The World Series starts Monday between the Giants and the Royals, and you'll be rooting for...the Orioles?


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

momsdoc said:


> If you feel this way, why do you wear AE shoes? If you are so dissatisfied and own more than one pair than you have yourself to blame. No one who has experienced a failure after 10 or less wears would ever have to keep those shoes. AE would repair or replace them. That's a fact.
> 
> From your remarks, it seems you are familiar enough with AE to have purchased more than one shoe. If you dislike them that much, and have continued to purchase them then you are a fool.
> 
> No one is twisting your arm to like or buy AE. So give it a rest. I find your entire rants disbelievable. You cannot be an AE owner and be so angry, so I smell a troll heaping bullshit. Your conduct toward Mr. Grangaard was despicable, and now you continue to extend your rudness to fellow forum members. Enough already.


The rudeness (and violations of forum rules) is coming from yourself and others. My posts have stayed on the topic at hand , without the childish name calling which yourself and others choose to use.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Peak and Pine said:


> ^^^
> 
> The World Series starts Monday between the Giants and the Royals, and you'll be rooting for...the Orioles?


The World Series starts Tuesday and I am a Giants fan.


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## Dmontez (Dec 6, 2012)

dg you may not have violated forum rules, but I still fail to see where you have given constructive criticism. You flat out attacked AE and its employees 3 times before you even asked a question that could be answered by Mr. Grangaard. 

I wonder if you did actually have problems with AE shoes, did you ever contact them for a fix? It's very well know that AE has phenomenal customer service I believe they would have been more than happy to help 

Maybe replying to dg is fanning the flame. Maybe we should all stop responding to him then he will not have anyone to spout his nonsense to.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

My reading comprehension skills are more than adequate. I have spent a profesional lifetime critically evaluating complex scientific and social treatises,with a well trained ability to ascertain that which is not blatantly stated, but omitted, inferred, or biased the writers' viewpoint. This is a skill that was meticulously taught to all science, medical students, residents, and attendings. I am quite adept at identifying bias and contradictions, that have been carefully camouflaged, in the authors attempts to support a hypothesis that is not panning out to their satisfaction.

I have not resorted to childish name calling, only criticized the lack of decorum you have displayed. As for my remark of "fool", that was a general observation as to what one would be if they kept purchasing an item that they were not satisfied with. You may never have said outright that you dislike AE, but what should one infer from your concern about construction techniques, material quality, employee training, dissatisfaction with wear, rapidly needed repairs to correct poor quality heel inserts, not to mention your disdain for their business model and the competency and honesty of their CEO?

So tell me. Why are you so concerned about the direction AE is moving in? There are plenty of other shoe companies out there that make a better product. If you want American made and shank construction, buy Alden. If you want quality leather, goodyear welting, shank construction, more elegant styling, buy Northampton shoes. If you want a more Italian look at a good price, than Bonafe, and G&G. If the AE price range suits you, than Carmina can fill the void. If you want a less expensive GYW shoe made of good materials, I'm finding Meermin fits the bill. If you want an American made, American styled shoe at a reasonable price than AE's Independence line or MTO will suffice - but no shank. If your price point is limited to $389 then AEs' Timeless Classics are as good as you'll get, and with sales, and their seconds ( most of which just need some polish and brushing to become firsts), you can buy the cheapest, well made at least partially US made shoe available in the world. If you want perfection and price is no object than buy John Lobb and St. Crispins.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I suspect you do not run a major manufacturing corporation employing thousands of workers. Until you do, than you have no idea what is involved besides what you have read in books, or articles, or by talking to know it alls who have not had the weight of leadership on their shoulders. You talk the talk, but have you walked the walk? If I am wrong and you do have this experience, than it makes your line of questioning, disrespect for a fellow corporate head, and lack of "corporate speak" even more mystifying.

You yourself cannot change AEs' business plans, but it seems Mr Grangaard is trying to perform an admirable change. Expand AE to appeal to younger or less affluent customers. Offshore that which can be done without affecting quality. Expand his US manufacturing plants, and employees, continue to provide their core products that maintain their corporate culture, increase sales and profits so that the company not only survives, but thrives, and then hopefully hook a new generation of men into buying AE so that they will move up to the mainline products as they get older and more successful. BB did this very well in the 70's and early 80's with their Brooksgate University line. It was of late that they have been losing their corporate way, but this had nothing to do with them having multiple lines, from collegiate, to mainline, to custom.

Are there things about AE many of us don't like? Sure, but we voice these concerns without being acerbic.. Try running your own shoe company successfully, and then maybe you'll have the credentials to criticize AE the way you have. Otherwise it's just sour grapes.


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## frosejr (Mar 27, 2010)

DG123 said:


> Hope this helps.


It does help. It helps you become even less liked and respected.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

DG123 said:


> I am lucky to get 10 wears out of a pair of AE shoes before the rubber heel caps need replacing..... .


I have eight pairs of AE shoes. I have never had a problem with heels or anything else coming apart on any of them. My first was a Hale model then Park Avenue, both about 10 years old now with at least a hundred wears each on them. Never had to send either back, even for recrafting. Do you mean to say this is the exception?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^Assuming "rubber heel caps" is referring to the heel toplifts, it seems unbelievable to me that heel toplifts would require replacement after only ten wears. I've never had that occur with any brand of shoes I've worn! :icon_scratch:


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

Nick V said:


> I know Paul. He's a friend of mine. We get together from time to time and talk shop. We exchange ideas and experiences. He helps me and I help him. He is sincere, open-minded and, is very dedicated to the AE brand. His willingness and the outstanding customer service department is evidence to that.
> If you are accusing him of his expanding the market as being a bad thing. That holds no merit. My Father wore AEs. 40 years ago when I was 18 I wouldn't be caught dead in a pair. Now I can go into an AE store with my youngest son (19) he can find a selection of offerings at his price-points that he is attracted to and I can do the same for me. Is there anything wrong with that??? Further...I'll repeat, I see far fewer faults in the quality of AE's production these days then I saw when G.H.J & M. purchased AE in 2006. And while we are on that subject, you state "but that is the cost of selling out". You should know that Paul was very involved and on the board at G.H.J & M overseeing the transaction. He was asked to be interim CEO of AE when the then CEO stepped down until a successor was found.
> He saw the potential and found such a love for running the company that he asked off the board at G.H.J. & M. to become permanent CEO. He was granted that request. That's a commitment! He further grew the company and was looking to raise cash to grow it further. A deal was struck between G.H.J.&M. to sell AE to Brentwood Associates. Part of the agreement was that Paul would stay on as CEO and keep his management team in place. If Paul's intentions were to "sell out" I suppose he would have had several opportunities to do just that from the time that G.H.J. & M. first made the purchase till it was sold to Brentwood and chances during that 8 year period.
> So, you have the original firm that made an investment, got a handsome ROI. They were happy. A new investment firm that sees very good growth potential.
> ...


Exactly. I couldn't have expressed my opinion any more accurately.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Assuming "rubber heel caps" is referring to the heel toplifts, it seems unbelievable to me that heel toplifts would require replacement after only ten wears. I've never had that occur with any brand of shoes I've worn! :icon_scratch:


Believe it, Eagle. And yes, heel caps are the the rubber which both protects the heel and offering the wearer traction. For walkers like me, who strike at the heel (rather than ball ) the rear end of the heel cap wears very quickly. Perhaps you have seen for sale the small hard plastic "heel taps", applied with either adhesive or small nails ? This accessory product is designed to extend the life of rubber heel caps, but it cheapens the look of the shoe, is a bit noisy, and prone to fall off the shoes.
Anyway, both Vibram and Topy brand heel caps are made of a significantly more long lasting rubber than the stock AE-branded heel caps. For us "heel strikers" it's not the entire heel cap which wears, but only the rear .25 inch or so. Still , when the rubber there wears down to about an eighth of an inch, it should be replaced. Otherwise, once the rubber is gone then the actual stacked leather heel itself starts to wear away, and then it becomes a more complicated, expensive repair job.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^I heels on my shoes (AE's and other brands) do eventually wear at the rear, outside edge of the heels, but they do not wear out after only 10 wears, but rather they require replacement after six to twelve months of regular wear. I walk quite a lot, averaging 5+ miles a day and walk on a variety of surfaces (dirt, grass, blacktop, concrete) and weigh right at 200 pounds. I am not sure what type of wear to which your shoes are subjected, but the wear rate you report seems extreme to me.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

I am a big-time heel striker. During my 30+ years of marathon running I was lucky to get a couple of months out of my New Balance when I was doing 50-70 miles a week. After, say 400 miles, the heels were shot. I wear the heels of my AEs as well, but I've sent only two AEs and two Aldens to Nick after at least six years of wear. I've not seen a big difference in Alden and AE heel wear. It's possible you weigh something north of 300 pounds, walk miles on gravel daily, or have a stride where your toes never touch the ground. Otherwise, I cannot fathom how a man could wear a heel down to replacement with only 10 days wear. I'm on vacation with only a 10 year old pair of AE Randolph shells to look at--yes, the heels are wearing down and Nick can expect to see them around 2016.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^I heels on my shoes (AE's and other brands) do eventually wear at the rear, outside edge of the heels, but they do not wear out after only 10 wears, but rather they require replacement after six to twelve months of regular wear. I walk quite a lot, averaging 5+ miles a day and walk on a variety of surfaces (dirt, grass, blacktop, concrete) and weigh right at 200 pounds. I am not sure what type of wear to which your shoes are subjected, but the wear rate you report seems extreme to me.


It's about striking with your heel, which (to your benefit) you do not do.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

You still haven't answered my question. If they dissatisfy you, why do you buy them?

You are either prone to excessive hyperbole, or this entire series of posts is a farce.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

cdavant said:


> It's possible you weigh something north of 300 pounds, walk miles on gravel daily, or have a stride where your toes never touch the ground. Otherwise, I cannot fathom how a man could wear a heel down to replacement with only 10 days wear. I'm on vacation with only a 10 year old pair of AE Randolph shells to look at--yes, the heels are wearing down and Nick can expect to see them around 2016.


 I am 6', 190 pounds. It is not the entire heel cap which wears down, but only the back end-edge center portion. But even though 95% of the rubber is fine, showing virtually no wear, the heel cap must be replaced. If not, the leather heel itself will become exposed (to the ground) and start to wear. As I wrote before, there are hard plastic, and even some metal "taps" for sale, designed to be applied with adhesive or nails. I have tried these, but they do have some drawbacks. So, I have a repair shop replace the stock rubber heel caps with longer wearing Vibram or Topy brand heel caps.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

momsdoc said:


> You still haven't answered my question. If they dissatisfy you, why do you buy them?
> 
> You are either prone to excessive hyperbole, or this entire series of posts is a farce.


As I did answer your previous post, my size is B width. In your novel most every alternative shoe brand you listed does not offer B width shoes.
Other than AE, I do own what I can from Alden's B width offerings. I wear some custom made narrow (actually A width) Rios of Mercedes boots. My athletic shoes are NEW Balance B width. My golf shoes are the no longer produced Brockton, Mass.-made Footjoy Classic Goodyear Welted B width shoes.
In summary, the primary reason I buy AE is because the company produces B width shoes.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

Try Carmina Simpson lasts. Members who have D width feet find them too narrow to even get on.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

DG123 said:


> Nick the shoe repair man proclaimed that his son liked the styling and lower price of some AE shoes. That is fine but what does that have to do with AE's quality?
> I expect the shoe repair shops you frequent like AE because their shoes have potential for repair business. I know my local repair shop does. I am lucky to get 10 wears out of a pair of AE shoes before the rubber heel caps need replacing with a Vibram or Topy brand rubber heel cap, which lasts about 3 times as long as the poor quality rubber heel caps found on AE stock dress shoes. A $400 shoe should include reasonable quality rubber heel caps.
> If Nick the shoe repair man wants to be of some help to the AE CEO he could probably do so. As I suggested before, two primary subjects for discussion should be leather quality and the merits of constructing shoes with a shank.


This post right here - post number 134 - is the FIRST time that you mention the heel issue. Everything up to this point had been about fit, training of employees, and rants against investment firms, etc.

So, you will pardon me if I call BS on you.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

On Carmina's website alone, there are 19 Simpson lasted shoes, one more beautiful than the next.. If that's not enough, then Skoak has others, as do GMTOs from SF. Meermin has a MTO program where you can propose a shoe in any last, if enough join in they will produce it, at regular prices. I'm sure if you look, you can find more examples, including other SF GMTOs where you can propose B last equivilents from other manufacturers. You are not locked into AE. So your argument that AE is necessary to get a variety of shoes that fit you is pure bulls**t.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

vpkozel said:


> This post right here - post number 134 - is the FIRST time that you mention the heel issue. Everything up to this point had been about fit, training of employees, and rants against investment firms, etc.
> 
> So, you will pardon me if I call BS on you.


I mentioned the quality of AE's rubber heel caps in the context of that subject as being something a shoe repair man could discuss with AE CEO, especially if the two of them are acquainted. Compared to leather quality ,merits of a steel shank, adequate training of manufacturing employees, brand integrity and exclusivity etc....the rubber heel cap issue is relatively insignificant.
And I never made a "rant against investment firms". I wrote that investment firm ownership expects its held companies to produce significantly higher sales and profits, especially top line sales revenues.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

momsdoc said:


> On Carmina's website alone, there are 19 Simpson lasted shoes, one more beautiful than the next.. If that's not enough, then Skoak has others, as do GMTOs from SF. Meermin has a MTO program where you can propose a shoe in any last, if enough join in they will produce it, at regular prices. I'm sure if you look, you can find more examples, including other SF GMTOs where you can propose B last equivilents from other manufacturers. You are not locked into AE. So your argument that AE is necessary to get a variety of shoes that fit you is pure bulls**t.


I never wrote that I was "locked into AE" or that "AE is necessary" for me to acquire B width shoes. In fact I listed the shoe and boot brands I own, all of which offer readily available B widths. Again, please, I suggest that you work on your reading comprehension skills. Hope this helps.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm not going to do your homework for you. There have been threads discussing the relative merits of steel shank construction vs, Ae's 360 degree welting. The consensus from "the expert" is that both are equally satisfactory in producing a quality shoe. The difference being a philosophical approach to shoe construction, that does not make one superior to the other. The threads reference these discussions by real shoe experts, those that manufacture and maintain shoes.

Look them up before you keep shooting off your mouth. Which would seem hard to do considering how far your foot is in your mouth now. You can probably shine your shoes every time you wipe your a**.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

_ Originally Posted by *WICaniac* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1609012#post1609012
I have been to three different shoe repair shops in the past two years. The first one told me my Florsheims were crap (they were) and recommended AE. The next two (heel plates on two different pairs) bordered on reverence for AE. I suspect Nick V knows what he's talking about.

_POSTED BY DG123

Nick the shoe repair man proclaimed that his son liked the styling and lower price of some . That is fine but what does that have to do with AE's quality?
I expect the shoe repair shops you frequent like AE because their shoes have potential for repair business. I know my local repair shop does. I am lucky to get 10 wears out of a pair of AE shoesbefore the need replacing with a Vibramor Topy brand rubber heel cap, which lasts about 3 times as long as the poor quality rubber heel capsfound on AE stock dress shoes. A $400 shoe should include reasonable quality rubber heel caps.
If Nick the shoe repair man wants to be of some help to the AE CEO he could probably do so. As I suggested before, two primary subjects for discussion should be leather quality and the merits of constructing shoes with a shank.

Wrong again. Florsheim's are as easy to repair as AE's are. The only reason why a reputable repairman recommends AE's is because they are a quality product offered at a fair price. His reputation is on the line for that. He wants you to come back and is well aware that as a customer, you may send your shoes back to AE for re-crafting. But, he is being honest if you truly value his opinion.

I don't get your disdain. You complain that AE is watering itself down by accommodating different markets (which IMO includes sizing). Then you admit that they are one of very few that offers B widths. Well, a bean counting company only interested in bottom line would surely eliminate that width because they don't sell that much.

Regarding present quality, I have already addressed that.

Not that you asked but my suggestion to you would be.....Find another bridge to crawl under TROLL.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Nick V said:


> _ Originally Posted by *WICaniac* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1609012#post1609012
> I have been to three different shoe repair shops in the past two years. The first one told me my Florsheims were crap (they were) and recommended AE. The next two (heel plates on two different pairs) bordered on reverence for AE. I suspect Nick V knows what he's talking about.
> 
> _POSTED BY DG123
> ...


Multiple width availability is one of the criteria which defines a high quality footwear company. Allen Edmonds has its faults, but lack of widths , and or disregard for the importance of good fit, is not one of them.
Fit and width availability are where the Euro brands fall short, but that's a subject for a different thread topic.
Decades ago, when the USA had a strong domestic shoe manufacturing industry, and independent retail merchants to support it, widths were common. Imported production , combined with chain store retailing concepts, made width availability rare, which is where we are today.I absolutely credit and appreciate AE company continuing to offer multiple widths. But in other facets of the brand's business I do recognize plenty of room for improvement.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

:icon_headagainstwal Make it stop... Make it stop... Make it stop...:icon_headagainstwal


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

So this is what it's like watching a train wreck. It's hard to watch, yet I can't look away


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