# Berkeley City Council vs. The United States Marine Corps



## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

For twenty years now I've lived in the Berkeley hills. I love this town. Where else, I ask, is one with three college degrees considered to be undereducated? But sometimes Berkeley can be a bit much.

In late January, the Berkeley City Council voted to tell the local recruiting center of the United States Marine Corps that they are "uninvited and unwelcome intruders" in this city. They've even granted permission for an ongoing protest in front of said recruiting station. 

Criticism has been so widespread that today the council will reconsider it's decision to tell the center it is unwelcome. Move America Forward is planning a daylong pro-troop protest outside the City Council chambers. Code Pink, which has been protesting the recruiting station's presence, is also planning a day long protest. Things could get interesting to say the least. 

Do any care to share your thoughts? While I am not in favor of the Iraq War, I cannot fathom taking such a stand against the presence of a United States Marine Corps recruiting center.

And for those who care to have a bit of fun -- at Berkeley's expense -- how about suggestions for headlines.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Makes me wonder what planet Berkeley is on. Very sad.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

disgusting


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## super k (Feb 12, 2004)

Berkeley City Council- Draft 'em !


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I defend the protestors' right to protest, no matter how much I disagree with it. (And please do not interpret this as meaning I was for this war, I have always been against it.) Where I have a problem is that I read the city council gave them a public parking space on a permanent basis to part a car to help with the protests. IMO, that is where the city, not the protestors, are in the wrong and that should be dealt with IMO.

As to the protestors though, I thought the whole idea of the US armed forces was to keep the US a place where these protestors were free to make arses of themselves?


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> I defend the protestors' right to protest, no matter how much I disagree with it. (And please do not interpret this as meaning I was for this war, I have always been against it.) Where I have a problem is that I read the city council gave them a public parking space on a permanent basis to part a car to help with the protests. IMO, that is where the city, not the protestors, are in the wrong and that should be dealt with IMO.
> 
> As to the protestors though, I thought the whole idea of the US armed forces was to keep the US a place where these protestors were free to make arses of themselves?


I have no trouble with the protestors right to protest, as well (although I think that they are not the type of people I would like to break bread with or have marry my kids, but that is another point). I have trouble with the city council.


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## TweedyDon (Aug 31, 2007)

I love Berkeley too--I'm a Berkeley grad. (And only three degrees, RSS? tch, tch..) 

I don't see any problem with granting the protestors the right to protest permanently--indeed, I think that this excellent, since everyone should be allowed to say what they wish in public spaces. (And others should be able to sue them if what they then say is slanderous!) 

But I do have a problem with the council's vote to tell the "United States Marine Corps that they are 'uninvited and unwelcome intruders' in" the city. Surely people recruiting others to defend this country at often great personal cost should be applauded, not condemned?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I have no problem with protesters in general, as long as they remain respectful of the rights of others. The problems I have here are the involvement of the local government and the target of the protesting.

First is the involvement of the local government. I have no problem with local governments speaking out against some specific State or Federal government action or policy that directly impacts in some way the operation of the local government. That's the local government's right, and indeed, responsibility. That isn't the case here, this is a military recruiting station. The military makes no policy that is affecting the governing of the city of Berkeley.

As to the private citizen's protesting, it seems to me that they are losing sight of the fact that the very entity that they are protesting, the U.S. Marine Corps, exists for the purpose of protecting and defending their right to protest. To me this does nothing but make the protesters look foolish regardless of which side of the war one might be on.

Cruiser


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I think the city council is silly and makes Berkeley look needlessly bad in front of the whole nation.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I think the city council is silly and makes Berkeley look needlessly bad in front of the whole nation.


I honestly do not think that they care how they look. Extremists _of any stripe_ often operate independent of societal norms _and_ reality.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

if ever a more backwards thinking hellhole than Berkley CA ever existed, I surely dont know of it...I mean it's always been _the land of fruits and nuts_ but after this latest episode, I personally will not spend another dime in that hippie infested pit. It's a little town full of little people who want to pretend that just because they have a college education and a few ducketts that they are important, and this latest mess further proves it...

The Bay Area is a separate world unto its self, but for the most part most places you go you'll still find some sane people, I couldnt ttell you when exactly the sanity left Berkley, but all anybody has to do is drive down University sometime for proof that the sanity is indeed gone.

Well anywho, all the common sense in the world will never get those people to think...any-who...here's to Stanford winning every "big game" from here on out...


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Yes, but how do you feel about Berkeley, Gabba? :icon_smile_big:


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

KenR said:


> Yes, but how do you feel about Berkeley, Gabba? :icon_smile_big:


LoL...
oh...I could go on if you want me to...


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Yes, the protest is what Berkeley is all about. But the council action is not. 

Reminds me of a recent attempt to ban the Interchange. :icon_smile_wink:


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Children running Berkeley again? Oh, tell me something new.

Why do people vote for children, anyway?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

WA said:


> Children running Berkeley again? Oh, tell me something new.


Yes, but now the children have a few years on them. I did notice that my neighborhood's council member voted against the original measure ... as did two others.

Currently, I'm awaiting a hearing of one of my projects on the agenda of a Design Review Commission ... so may not have much time -- then again I might ... they aren't exactly running on time.

In Berkeley, the authorities that be are projecting the largest protest in _*decades.*_ Berkeley may be experiencing a rebirth of old.

In my student days -- although not at Berkeley -- Berkeley was one of the centers of civil disobedience and protests. But ... by the time I moved here as an adult, the average student seemed more concerned with getting an I. Magnin charge card than interested in protesting. Now, it seems to be swinging back the other way ... but on the whole ... the protesters are not students.

There are certainly many young protesters ... protesters of all ages ... but there are a particularly large number of older protesters causing me to wonder if they were around here in my students years ... and are now retired with a bit more time on their hands. :icon_smile_wink:


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

TweedyDon said:


> And only three degrees, RSS? tch, tch...


I apologize ... that was a bit tacky of me. I should get another way of expressing that.

I once remember saying to a friend asking about the office gardener ... "He went to Columbia." The friend responded, "My gardener is from Hawaii." I had to reply ... "No, no ... I mean he has a law degree from Columbia University. That's Berkeley for you."


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

One has to seperate the rights of protestors to protest, which I support, with the actions taken by the Berkeley City Council. The City Council voted to tell the Marines they are not welcome, that they do not want them there. Fine. I think the US government should cut off ALL federal funding for any and ALL programs that the city of Berkeley derives from the US government, Period.

Some will say: "You can't punish the citizens of Berkeley because of a stupid City Council." Sure you can. The citizens voted these nutcases into office and they can vote them out. If they do not immediately recall these City Council members then by their inaction they support them.

I am quite sensitive to this issue. I only found this fashion website, and the "other" one, because one of it's members sent me an email calling for the death of my US Marine son by a roadside bomb in Iraq. The sad thing is, many, as will happen now with me just mentioning it, voiced strong support for the idiot who made the remark while villifying me, the father of the US Marine, for getting so upset. 

Well, my son is going to Iraq on the second rotation this year. I worry every moment of every day that he will get killed by a roadside bomb in Iraq. Heaven forbid, if it were to happen, how do you think I will feel knowing that a member here called for that and quite a few others supported it? No matter what you may think of me, personally, my son does not deserve to die such a horrible death just because you dislike me. No one should be "defended" for saying such a thing, ever. 

In a free society you may have the right to say horrible things, and my son is defending your right to do so, but anyone stupid enough to exercise their right to say such a horrible thing ought be told that what they said was horrible. I, for one, am tired of hearing about how everyone supports everyone else's right to be idiots, but they do not support my right, or yours, to say they are idiots. Free speech is a two way street, first of all, and more important, free speech does not mean I or anyone else has to agree with what was said.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

we have to remember that these were the same scumbags who wouldnt allow any their police department to put American flags on their cars after the September 11th attacks because they fealt they would be "antagonistic"...

like I said, a very little city full of very little people...


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Berkeley has excellent restaurants and cheese shops.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I am another alumnus predated by 2 years service in nearby Alameda and Treasure Island. I would point out that this same week saw the Mayor of Toledo Ohio deny the Marines use of an abandoned building to train for urban combat just before deployment. Bizerkeley has always been problematical. I had more problems in uniform in San Francisco AP than I ever did across the Bay. But then I also debated visiting speaker Angela Davis. She told my professor " He's a dangerous man." My prof nodded, mumbling "Yes, he was in the real world before we got him, remember Angela, Berkeley isn't the real world."


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

whomewhat said:


> I think the US government should cut off ALL federal funding for any and ALL programs that the city of Berkeley derives from the US government, Period.


That has been threatened ... it may even be part of the reason it is being reconsidered.



iammatt said:


> Berkeley has excellent restaurants and cheese shops.


 And good theater as well -- with multiple local companies including Berkeley Rep and Aurora. And while the performance venue for Cal Shakes was moved some time back to the "other" side of the Berkeley Hills ... it's still headquartered in Berkeley.

If that weren't enough, well performed classical music is also in good supply ... why Nicholas 'Nic" McGegan (Philharmonia Baroque) lives only a canyon or two over.

Then there is the Nobel Prize winner next door (not the peace prize ... sound travels up canyon!) ... the Pulitzer winner down the street ... the world class theologian who walks by on a daily basis ... etc., etc., etc.

And the architecture ... Arts & Crafts at its best.

Berkeley offers quite a lot for its relatively small population ... thanks in large part to the support of San Francisco ... and the population of the greater Bay Area.

So for those who can put up with the left of left politics ... or at least escape into the Berkeley Hills when things are over the top ... it's one heck of a place.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

KAV, I remember Ms. Davis. 

I might add that I regularly see one person whose name is still closely linked with Patty Hearst ... the link being not all that positive.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Berkeley was a good place, if not one of the two best ( Chicago the other one) for an anthropology degree. I always thought the balding, grey ponytailed Doctorates of 'women's studies in Islam' or " 'latino Lit of the revolucion' were reminiscent of Musk Oven forming a defensive circle with their VW microbe buses festooned with Deadhead skulls and U.S. out of Zambo Ango bumperstickers. You have to remember Berkeley must periodicaly do this, like a fading trophy bride wearing a revealing blouse at Starbucks.They do it for Berkeley, not for all of us mere irish out here, in the dangerous twilight, beyond the pale.


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## In Mufti (Jan 28, 2005)

*Take Away their Federal Funds*

Berkeley can have all of the "free speech" they want. However, free speech does not mean that one is free from the consequences of that speech.

Their funding should be cut off (which is already in the works by a congressman from South Carolina).

I saw a video of the council meeting where this was voted on--the rhetoric on the video was much more inflamatory on the part of the councilmembers than anything that was reported in the news. They are some really nastly little turds.

Take away thier money and watch them cry.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

I spent three years in the People's Republic while getting a law degree. I've never met a more narrow-minded, humorless and self-absorbed bunch of people. These are the guys who invented "political correctness." Not a lot of original thinkers; most are merely living caricatures of Leftist views. And a lot of them think they are a lot smarter than they actually are. Rather insufferable really. In Berkeley, they've formed a little self-contained universe of like people so they don't have to deal with the Real World.

One thing about Berkeley, you either drink the Koolaid, or you rebel against it.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

RSS said:


> Yes, the protest is what Berkeley is all about. But the council action is not.
> 
> Reminds me of a recent attempt to ban the Interchange. :icon_smile_wink:


In fact the problem is not the city council in Berkeley, it is city councils in general. Having lived in a suprising number of different communities over the years, I quite frankly can not think of a more worthless governing body, in this great democratic experiment we call America! A city/town council is just another name for a "home for self-actualizing a**holes," who harbor major self doubt/esteem problems...and we, the community, are forced to endure the effects of this lunatic fringe, ie; banning the USMC recruiting presence in the Berkeley community. Sit in on your local city council meetings sometime (assuming they are not closed meetings)...you will leave shaking your head and wondering, "did I elect that(!)?"


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

I'll vote to cut off their Federal funding.

Maybe one day when all their pot smoke clears they'll wake up, although I doubt it.

I have made it a point that I will not voluntarily ever go to Berkeley.


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## MichaelS (Nov 14, 2005)

Very sad. Whatever I feel about our political policies, I don't blame the military. One of the things that keeps us free is a very strong ethic within the military that the military does not make policy, but does as the politicians say even if it is wrong.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> Angela Davis


Did you vote for her when she ran for Pressident?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

People who use the government (get elected) to ban other governments should be fined $200,000 or more. They don't have the right to use my taxes for their chip on the shoulder or make believe smarts.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Beresford said:


> I spent three years in the People's Republic while getting a law degree. I've never met a more narrow-minded, humorless and self-absorbed bunch of people. These are the guys who invented "political correctness." Not a lot of original thinkers; most are merely living caricatures of Leftist views. *And a lot of them think they are a lot smarter than they actually are.* Rather insufferable really. In Berkeley, they've formed a little self-contained universe of like people so they don't have to deal with the Real World.
> 
> One thing about Berkeley, you either drink the Koolaid, or you rebel against it.


bingo...they are completely oblivious to the fact that they are big joke to the world around them...and the funny thing is that they want people to look at them like some ultra wealthy, ultra educated sophisticates...when in reality the majority of people who live in Berkley and the hills are the biggest bunch of _big hat and no cattle_ types you'll ever have to suffer through meeting. They live way beond their means to try and show the world around hem how much _better_ they are, when the reality is that not only do most people not care, but alot of them are more well off...

I was watching these morons out in that hellhole burning the flag last night on the news, I just wanted to drive down there and beat the fact that they arent as important as they think they are into a few of these scumbags...but unfortunately...they're so far gone, I think by the time you beat them enough to get the point across, there wouldnt be much left...

scum...disgusting scum...plain and simple...


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

If you beat them, they would whine and complain about corporal punishment. Make love not war, and all that nonsense.

In the words of Bad Religion: Break all the f***ing rules and go to hell with superman
And die like a champion


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> If you beat them, they would whine and complain about corporal punishment. Make love not war, and all that nonsense.
> 
> In the words of Bad Religion: Break all the f***ing rules and go to hell with superman
> And die like a champion


I hear ya...it would be fun though...oh well...it'd be really great to see that cesspool lose all it's gov't funding and really get taken down a few pegs...


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

WA, Angela Davis never ran for POTUS. She did run for vice POTUS in both 1980 and 1984. I voted for a candidate I met on a long ago San Fernando Valley summer day in my grandfather's emerald green and black fendered Studebaker truck. Davis ran on the communist party, or worker's party ticket, an organisation I mixed it up with my first day unpacking in the Merrill College Dormitory at U.C. Santa Cruz. Davis is in fact a very intelligent and articulate woman. Her political bent was influenced by segregation in her native Alabama ( She knew 3 of the 4 girls murdered in that infamous bombing.) I also wore a devil's costume from J.C. Pennies for Halloween when I was 6 years old. By your line of inquiry does that make me a satanist?


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

The Gabba Goul said:


> I hear ya...it would be fun though...oh well...it'd be really great to see that cesspool lose all it's gov't funding and really get taken down a few pegs...


I'll go with you if need be Gabba.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> I'll go with you if need be Gabba.


I honestly do think that I will go to the next counter protest (or whatever they call it when there's people out there protesting against the morons) if they have one...funny how the people with JOBS dont have time to be out marching in the streets 24/7...


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> WA, Angela Davis never ran for POTUS. She did run for vice POTUS in both 1980 and 1984. I voted for a candidate I met on a long ago San Fernando Valley summer day in my grandfather's emerald green and black fendered Studebaker truck. Davis ran on the communist party, or worker's party ticket, an organisation I mixed it up with my first day unpacking in the Merrill College Dormitory at U.C. Santa Cruz. Davis is in fact a very intelligent and articulate woman. Her political bent was influenced by segregation in her native Alabama ( She knew 3 of the 4 girls murdered in that infamous bombing.) I also wore a devil's costume from J.C. Pennies for Halloween when I was 6 years old. By your line of inquiry does that make me a satanist?


Just pulling your leg.

Will you be getting some more jobs doing anthropology?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The Gabba Goul said:


> I honestly do think that I will go to the next counter protest (or whatever they call it when there's people out there protesting against the morons) if they have one...funny how the people with JOBS dont have time to be out marching in the streets 24/7...


I'd imagine that Berkeley has a higher percentage of self-employed types -- in fields that often need not keep 9-5 hours ... authors, artists, consultants, etc. -- than most communities. When looking at the inhabitants of the twenty+ homes that line my street as it winds though the hills... I am one of only three who works outside the home ... and even so my hours are quite flexible and sans free of cell phones and pagers.

Certainly there are many in Berkeley who seem only to squeak out a living ... and yet simultaneously Berkeley has a significantly higher than average share of people who are quite secure financially. A few years back, an in-house study by Citibank indicated that the average resident of the Berkeley Hills (zip code 94708) has a net worth comparable to that of the average resident of the Bay Area's better known affluent communities ... and a ratio of assets to liabilities that is very _very_ healthy. This being so, many "retire" early.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

well...uuuh...good for them, am I supposed to be envious??? because honestly I could care less...and it still doesnt explain the rampant jackassery...


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ...well...uuuh...good for them, am I supposed to be envious???


 No. But it certainly explains how people with jobs find the time to protest ... in response to your implication that only people without jobs protest.



The Gabba Goul said:


> ...they are completely oblivious to the fact that they are big joke to the world around them...


Gabba, they aren't oblivious to it ... what others think gets reported day after day. That you or others think them to be a big joke means absolutely nothing to them ... they pay such sentiments no attention.



The Gabba Goul said:


> They live way beond their means to try and show the world around hem how much _better_ they are.


 While Berkeley protesters may be outspoken ... the Berkeley lifestyle is pretty darn understated. Why don't you tell us how the folks of Berkeley live ... so that we understand how they are living beyond their means? There isn't another place in America that adheres less to the materialism of our consumer society.

In my particular situation, my current debt is absolutely $0 ... no mortgage ... no car loan ... no credit card balance ... nada. Moreover, in terms of savings/investments ... I reached my retirement goal over ten years ago. Now I'm five times beyond it.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

*WOWEEEEE!!!

Here's a Cookie...*

Thank you for sharing your financial info with me (maybe when we put the bank statements away we can have a d*** measuring contest and then go to the parking lot to see who's car is louder...or maybe we'll just show pictures of our GF's to 10 random guys and see who they think is hotter...)...trust me...berkeley (even the "lovely" berkley hills) has it's share of people living on plastique too...

but none of this still explains why berkeley is such a hotbed of douchebaggery...what just because they're ***cough***rich, they feel they need to hate America???


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

RSS said:


> Certainly there are many in Berkeley who seem only to squeak out a living ... and yet simultaneously Berkeley has a significantly higher than average share of people who are quite secure financially. A few years back, an in-house study by Citibank indicated that the average resident of the Berkeley Hills (zip code 94708) has a net worth comparable to that of the average resident of the Bay Area's better known affluent communities ... and a ratio of assets to liabilities that is very _very_ healthy. This being so, many "retire" early.


My understanding is that Berkeley was considered an affluent country getaway from the City as far back as the late 1800s, and that flavor remains in the Berkeley Hills. Berkeley itself was a very upscale town until the Sixties, when it was pretty much destroyed (literally) by the radicals. A lot of the oldtime residents and businesses left, including the "trad" college clothing stores (the last one, which was across from Sproul Plaza, shut down while I was there) and a lot of seedy street people, pan handlers, transients, and drug dealers moved in. Berkeley has never really recovered from that. When I was there, there were still derelict buildings that had been abandoned, including some that were firebombed and just the walls were standing. The big development was when Bank of America removed the bricks from its windows the last year I was there, perhaps indicating some normalcy was returning.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Beresford,

Regarding the last of the Berkeley trad stores ... perhaps you are thinking George Good ... along Bancroft Way ... between College and Telegraph Avenues? I became a customer when I first moved here from New York. It's much missed ... but I fully understand how it could not keep going in Berkeley. 

You mention Bank of America removing the brick from its windows ... I do remember that! Perhaps you will recall an Episcopal Church on Bancroft Way ... just across from the REC center. A few years back the 60s vintage concrete "fortress wall" was finally removed and the building restored to its original period ... albeit a revivalist original. Things are indeed making a comeback from the low period. 

However, street people, pan handlers, transients, drug dealers, and deserted buildings are still in evidence along Telegraph (and nearby "People's Park") as it nears Cal. It's a place I'm not comfortable. And with Cody's Books gone now ... there isn't much reason to visit that part of Telegraph.

Just about anywhere in the hectic parts of downtown along Shattuck -- which for the most part I avoid if possible -- will put you face to face with street folk and pan handlers ... but there are many parts of town quite removed from that all too real Berkeley street life. There is Shattuck north of Cedar ... with Chez Panisse Restaurant & Cafe, César, Saul's, Cafe de la Paz, the Cheese Shop, Andronico's, Epicurious Garden w/ Kirala, Taste, Picoso, Kitchen on Fire, Ciao Bella Gelato, Alegio, etc. ... and of course there is the Fourth Street area ... with enough "atmosphere" to attract folk from Contra Costa.

The new downtown arts district -- even given its proximity to a less than the best part of Shattuck -- with Berkeley Rep's two stages, Aurora Theatre, a Jazz club & school, a art school, a public college, and a number of restaurants & cafes is a good addition.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

An open letter to Code Pink:
https://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2007-10-02/article/28139
I thought it was well written.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Thank you for sharing your financial info with me (maybe when we put the bank statements away we can have a d*** measuring contest and then go to the parking lot to see who's car is louder...or maybe we'll just show pictures of our GF's to 10 random guys and see who they think is hotter...


As is all too typical, you post a reply derisive of the comments to which you respond. Perhaps you have hope that the shock value of your language will draw attention away from your not having addressed the issue raised.

As for the sharing of financial information ... I note that the largest dollar amount mentioned was $0 ... and that ain't much to share. But with a debt balance due of $0 -- which is more common in Berkeley than in most of America -- one is certainly not living beyond one's means.

Sorry, but I decline to compare bank statements and am not really interested in school-boy contests. And ... I apologize to all you school boys out there.



The Gabba Goul said:


> ...none of this still explains why berkeley is such a hotbed of douchebaggery


 Your last word is not the most clearly defined ... but I'll take this opportunity to note that your original claims to which I responded weren't addressing this matter either. Your original claims were simply invented criticism for the sake of making Berkeley look even worse ... as if the city council's action required help.

Gabba, I can understand if your are offended by the Berkeley City Council ... I am too. And if you don't like Berkeley ... well, you don't like Berkeley. No one is stopping you. Moreover, if you want to make off-tone remarks about Berkeley and its residents ... that's your decision. But if that is what you are going to do ... at least have enough knowledge of your subject such that you don't have to invent issues simply to have enough bad things to say.

In the future, I'll remember that you are not too keen on having one of your false claims challanged.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*John Edwards Lives in Berkeley?*

So it sounds like there are "two Berkeleys", as John Edwards would put it. One Berkely where wealthy architects, with five times the retirement wealth they desired, live in paid off homes, and then another Berkely. How do these wealthy, debt free folks feel about this other Berkeley?



RSS said:


> However, street people, pan handlers, transients, drug dealers, and deserted buildings are still in evidence along Telegraph (and nearby "People's Park") as it nears Cal. *It's a place I'm not comfortable. *And with Cody's Books gone now ... there isn't much reason to visit that part of Telegraph.
> 
> *Just about anywhere in the hectic parts of downtown along Shattuck -- which for the most part I avoid if possible -- will put you face to face with street folk and pan handlers* ... but there are many parts of town quite removed from that all too real Berkeley street life. There is Shattuck north of Cedar ... with Chez Panisse Restaurant & Cafe, César, Saul's, Cafe de la Paz, the Cheese Shop, Andronico's, Epicurious Garden w/ Kirala, Taste, Picoso, Kitchen on Fire, Ciao Bella Gelato, Alegio, etc. ... and of course there is the Fourth Street area ... with enough "atmosphere" to attract folk from Contra Costa.


RSS, you sound like how the media portrays Republicans!

Which Berkeley is the Marine's office in? Which one do the Code Pink crew live in?

I am glad to see even in Berkeley, it apparently is still possible to go too far and that some there are speaking out against it. This whole thing reminds me of something I once read that is attributed to Orwell. Pacifists can only exist, for any length of times, in a country with a very strong military. I am not saying the Code Pink crew are beyond violence (they look like a pretty intense lot), but you get the idea. The Marines manning that station should be commended, by all accounts they are acting with dignity and maturity. I wish the same could be said about the protestors and the city council.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> So it sounds like there are "two Berkeleys", as John Edwards would put it ... How do these wealthy, debt free folks feel about this other Berkeley?


 There are two Berkeley's ... perhaps more. When confronted with the "other" Berkeley of which I spoke, I am not uncomfortable because it exists or is too unsightly and different ... I am uncomfortable going to certain areas primarily because on an individual level it can be aggressively confrontational. But this is not condemnation of the majority ... it's certainly a small -- albeit highly present -- minority.

That is part of how I feel about this "other" community. As for some of what I do to help... last year I made donations beyond my maximum IRS allowable charitable deduction toward helping feed and house this community. On a personal level, I regularly give my time to "Hot Meals for the Homeless" ... both cooking and serving. I have also served on the board of the organization operating it. In addition, I volunteer at an all-night shelter that opens when it rains or is too cold.



Wayfarer said:


> Which Berkeley is the Marine's office in? Which one do the Code Pink crew live in?


 The Marine Corps office is downtown near University Avenue ... a very commercial center. As for the members of Code Pink ... I cannot say where they live ... as I don't know any of them. They could be from any part of Berkeley ... but given the personalities of neighborhoods ... some parts more likely than others.

While Code Pink is non-violent ... the anti-war protesters are not always anti-violent. Given my build and short haircut (still blond although I'm over 50) people often assume that I am military. I've been hassled beyond words more than once or twice. Of course, not being one who fails to speak his mind when taunted ... when I speak in support of the military ... you might imagine the direction things can go.

And today I've broken all the sartorial rules and I'm wearing a Marine Corp t-shirt as a sign of support. I went out and bought it last night. And please, I don't want any AAAC finger pointing as to how I'm failing the AAAC community by dressing inappropriately. :icon_smile_wink:



Wayfarer said:


> The Marines manning that station should be commended, by all accounts they are acting with dignity and maturity.


 Indeed they are.



Wayfarer said:


> I wish the same could be said about the protestors and the city council.


 I understand your sentiments. I'm very proud that my council member did not support this move. Yesterday while driving by her house, I saw her in the yard and waived. In response she held up her arms with palms up ... as if to say ... I'm doing everything I can against this ugly stuff ... but it isn't enough and I'm not sure what more I can do.

Wayfarer, you suggest that I sound like a Republican. Perhaps it comes as a surprise ... but I started my voting life as a registered Republican. It was only later in life that I became a Liberal Relativist.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

RSS said:


> Wayfarer, you suggest that I sound like a Republican. Perhaps it comes as a surprise ... but I started my voting life as a registered Republican. It was only later in life that I became a Liberal Relativist.


I started my voting life as a registered NDP, a true blue socialist. I have never, and would never, register as a Repub though. :icon_smile:


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> I started my voting life as a registered NDP, a true blue socialist. I have never, and would never, register as a Repub though. :icon_smile:


I wish I could say that. I'm jealous! 

While I started my voting life as a Republican -- albeit a more liberal one ... a Republican of old -- from my point of view the party left me behind in its shift right on morality issues ... and it's refusal to control spending.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

RSS said:


> from my point of view the party left me behind in its shift right


Exactly the way us old time Southern Democrats felt when the Democratic party shifted too far to the left.

Cruiser


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Regarding the last of the Berkeley trad stores ... perhaps you are thinking George Good ... along Bancroft Way ... between College and Telegraph Avenues? I became a customer when I first moved here from New York. It's much missed ... but I fully understand how it could not keep going in Berkeley.

_Yes, now that you mention it I believe that was the name--I couldn't remember._

You mention Bank of America removing the brick from its windows ... I do remember that! Perhaps you will recall an Episcopal Church on Bancroft Way ... just across from the REC center. A few years back the 60s vintage concrete "fortress wall" was finally removed and the building restored to its original period ... albeit a revivalist original. Things are indeed making a comeback from the low period.

_When I first ended up in Berkeley, since I was then an Episcopalian I went to that church--I think it was called St. Mark's? Then, only a short time after I started going there, the rector was murdered by a deranged street person--what I heard was he was stabbed to death as he was giving the guy a handout. Think his name was Fr. George. Anyway, that was another great introduction to Berkeley for me, and that church was so depressing I started checking others out, which were also very liberal, filled with old people, and very depressing. It was like everyone was waiting to die. Finally I ended up going to First Presbyterian, which I thought was a wonderful church and had a great pastor, Earl Palmer._

However, street people, pan handlers, transients, drug dealers, and deserted buildings are still in evidence along Telegraph (and nearby "People's Park") as it nears Cal. It's a place I'm not comfortable. And with Cody's Books gone now ... there isn't much reason to visit that part of Telegraph.

_I was shocked walking down Telegraph my first day in Berkeley. It seemed like guys were trying to sell me drugs every 25 feet. Anything from dope to heroin. Totally out in the open. (I found out later the Berkeley City Council had prohibited the Berkeley police from making arrests for drug offenses, which is why Telegraph was the drug supermarket of the Bay Area.) And I had never seen so many beggars. Or mentally ill people and freaked out druggies all talking to themselves._

Just about anywhere in the hectic parts of downtown along Shattuck -- which for the most part I avoid if possible -- will put you face to face with street folk and pan handlers ... but there are many parts of town quite removed from that all too real Berkeley street life. There is Shattuck north of Cedar ... with Chez Panisse Restaurant & Cafe, César, Saul's, Cafe de la Paz, the Cheese Shop, Andronico's, Epicurious Garden w/ Kirala, Taste, Picoso, Kitchen on Fire, Ciao Bella Gelato, Alegio, etc. ... and of course there is the Fourth Street area ... with enough "atmosphere" to attract folk from Contra Costa.

_I never got to spend too much time on the North Side, and those food places really weren't there yet, at least I don't remember them, nor was there anything on Fourth then, although I have been to that area more recently so know what you're talking about. I do remember with some fondness "Kip's" which was near campus. I still think they made the best hamburgers I've ever eaten. And then there was "Manuel's," which was a total dive with all sorts of weirdos and truant high school kids hanging around, including the Hate Man dressed in transvestite garb with his black plastic miniskirt and kleenex stuffed bra (did you know he was once a New York Times reporter?), but they had the cheapest and most volume of Mexican food for the bucks, which is important when you're a starving student._

The new downtown arts district -- even given its proximity to a less than the best part of Shattuck -- with Berkeley Rep's two stages, Aurora Theatre, a Jazz club & school, a art school, a public college, and a number of restaurants & cafes is a good addition.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

I haven't registered anywhere and never will. The anti-federalist party died long ago.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

> While Berkeley protesters may be outspoken ... the Berkeley lifestyle is pretty darn understated. Why don't you tell us how the folks of Berkeley live ... so that we understand how they are living beyond their means? There isn't another place in America that adheres less to the materialism of our consumer society.
> 
> In my particular situation, my current debt is absolutely $0 ... no mortgage ... no car loan ... no credit card balance ... nada. Moreover, in terms of savings/investments ... I reached my retirement goal over ten years ago. Now I'm five times beyond it.


This is a great example of the douchebaggary of Berkley: they all think everyone cares about them. They're all so self-important. Just because you have no debt doesn't mean no one else there does. I also find it quite funny that probably the most liberal state in the Union has probably the largest income gaps. If you look at the cities with the most expensive suburbs, you'll find the top three are from California, including #2 is Berkeley. The average income in Berkeley is $51,256, and the average home cost is $752,500, which would take the average person 14.7 years of their gross income to pay (that excludes taxes and interest on their mortgage).

If you don't believe me, I'll give you the link the Forbes article.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

brokencycle said:


> Just because you have no debt doesn't mean no one else there does.


*You have completely missed the point* I was making. On *average*, when compared to other cities, Berkeley has been determined to have a far greater percentage of people _without _debt. *MY POINT IS *... if one is without debt ... one is hardly living beyond one's means ... as the poster was claiming. And when one takes into consideration that materialism isn't to Berkeley what it is to much of the nation -- buying new stuff such as consumer electronics of stylish clothing just isn't what Berkeley is all about -- it's absurd to generalize (*again, an average*) as did, Gabba, and say that those in Berkeley are living beyond their means ... except perhaps in terms of the rent that the poor pay for their homes or apartments. 
*Lets fact it ... the typical Berkeley mobile *
*-- a beat-up 1979 Datsun or even a shiny 1985 Honda Accord --*
*isn't going to be too far beyond the means of anyone. *
*Berkeley just isn't into the "latest and greatest" new consumer item.*​


brokencycle said:


> I also find it quite funny that probably the most liberal state in the Union has probably the largest income gaps. If you look at the cities with the most expensive suburbs, you'll find the top three are from California, including #2 is Berkeley. The average income in Berkeley is $51,256, and the average home cost is $752,500, which would take the average person 14.7 years of their gross income to pay (that excludes taxes and interest on their mortgage).


I don't doubt *your figures* ... and each is *an average.* And since we are talking averages ... I know *you understand the concept* ... perhaps you can look anew at my comment above. But back to your averages ... so you know that many in Berkeley make less than $51,256 per year while many homes cost far more than $752,500. Yes, Berkeley's population ranges from the very poor to the extraordinarily wealthy.

I can assume you that those who don't own or who can't afford housing don't find it funny at all. Frankly, I'm stunned when a home in my neighborhood is placed for sale and I learn the asking price. I have no idea how a young couple starting out can even afford to think about buying a home in Berkeley.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

that's right...berkeley is far too enlightened to buy into materialism...that's why it's residents need homes that average 3/4 mil right??? but God (or the non-denominational diety of your choice for you berkeley residents) forbid they drive a benz lest somebody confuse them for one of those CoCo county schlubs that they thinkt hey're so much better than, huh??? 

the sad part is that this is the typical berkeley mentality...but that still doesnt explain why it's such a hotbed for scumbag activity...


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Beresford said:


> _When I first ended up in Berkeley, since I was then an Episcopalian I went to that church--I think it was called St. Mark's? Then, only a short time after I started going there, the rector was murdered by a deranged street person--what I heard was he was stabbed to death as he was giving the guy a handout. Think his name was Fr. George_.


George was on his way to a friend's house for dinner. He had just dropped off his wife and had gone to park the car.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ...berkeley is far too enlightened to buy into materialism...that's why it's residents need homes that average 3/4 mil right???


This is California; $750,000. is the price one pays for a very small, very ordinary home. We're talkin' 3bdr/2ba, LR, DR & Kit ... but no FamRm. If that is materialism ... what the heck is the rest of American into. Why just look at the McMansions and Swankiendas springing up elsewhere.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

RSS said:


> This is California; $750,000. is the price one pays for a very small, very ordinary home. We're talkin' 3bdr/2ba, LR, DR & Kit ... but no FamRm. If that is materialism ... what the heck is the rest of American into. Why just look at the McMansions and Swankiendas springing up elsewhere.


I believe 750K is the average...I know of some houses out there that go for alot more...and trust me...there are places in the bay area where one could have the same house for much cheaper...so don't tell me that "status" has nothing to do with it...

but I still dont have an explaination to my original question...I mean there are plenty of other snobby (or wannabe snobby as-it-were) towns, where the citizens for the most part behave themselves, so why then, is berkeley the epicenter of the scumbag movement???


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

If I were to leave San Francisco to head to the 'burbs, RSS's area of Berkeley would be the one I would choose. The entire city has a lot to offer, and I haven't ever felt intimidated by any of the locals. I imagine that he is right about debt and lifestyle, especially when compared to San Francisco. Both are places for some people, but certainly not for all.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

I would like to see statistical data to back up your anecdotes. Please forgive me, it is the conservative in me that likes to see numbers when it comes to money. I don't take the banker's word that a CD is going to have a "good" interest rate.

There is a reason houses in Berkeley are $750k+ - it is because of demand. If people weren't into materialism there, people wouldn't want to have that house overlooking the ocean. So, why if people out there aren't living beyond their means is foreclosure rates so high there?

And this whole debate doesn't answer the question asked of why people in Berkeley are so self-important they have to tell everyone how great they are for not being materialistic and how capitalism is the economic-incarnation of Satan.

The only reason residents of Berkeley aren't so materialistic is because they have to pay off their home mortgages.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> I would like to see statistical data to back up your anecdotes. Please forgive me, it is the conservative in me that likes to see numbers when it comes to money. I don't take the banker's word that a CD is going to have a "good" interest rate.


I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but the CA housing market is not nearly as monolithic as one might think. In Northern California, counties like Contra Costa and Solano have foreclosure rates that are shocking, they are up in the 14% range. On the other hand, San Francisco has almost none. I don't remember the numbers for Berkeley.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

brokencycle said:


> And this whole debate doesn't answer the question asked of why people in Berkeley are so self-important they have to tell everyone how great they are for not being materialistic and how capitalism is the economic-incarnation of Satan.


They do this? This is news to me ... and I live in Berkeley.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

brokencycle said:


> I have made it a point that I will not voluntarily ever go to Berkeley.


 I'm always amazed to discover that someone with such a dislike for a place has never even been there. His entire perception is sourced from the media. And we all know how the media loves to present the extreme of things.

Then there are those who think they know a city after visiting its most cliché neighborhoods. I'm always reminded of the young fellow from New Jersey who told me ... "Yeah, I've been to New York, I ate at Mamma Leone's one time and another time I went to W 4th St.



The Gabba Goul said:


> ...all anybody has to do is drive down University sometime for proof that the sanity is indeed gone.


 Of course, if one thinks of University Avenue -- a less than attractive but busy, multi-purpose, commercial thoroughfare lined with hardware stores, burger joints, copy shops, motels, gas stations, convenience stores, etc. -- as unusual ... I'd enjoy seein his/her reaction to Telegraph Avenue as it nears Cal.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

On second thought. Gabba & Brokencycle ... Berkeley is so much worse than you think it is ... you definitely never want to visit here again. :icon_smile:


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, I don't see any other place declaring the United States Marine Corp "intruders." I'd say it is about as far left as it gets.

My comment about home foreclosures was for California in general: I do not know the actual numbers in Berkeley myself.

But alas, I believe it is time to end this civilly, as gentlemen should. I would like to see those numbers if you find them.

But I still make no plans of visiting, even if it is not as liberal as I believe it to be, it is not conservative enough for the likes of me. And besides, there is too much sunshine and surfing there.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

RSS said:


> George was on his way to a friend's house for dinner. He had just dropped off his wife and had gone to park the car.


Sorry, it sounds like you knew him personally. It was quite shocking at the time, especially since he was a priest.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

if the berkley fathers really oppose the war, then why dont they take there protest to the white house. the marines are caught in the middle. they are not the instigators of this horrible mess.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

a tailor said:


> if the berkley fathers really oppose the war, then why dont they take there protest to the white house. the marines are caught in the middle. they are not the instigators of this horrible mess.


I side with you here.

Sadly, given the nature of politics in Berkeley ... many of the most qualified people will never even consider the _possibility _of running for office.

Attending a city council meeting is an eye-opening experience. On those occasions when my attendance has been required ... I felt as if I had stepped back in time ... or perhaps had tuned in to watch a late 1960s sitcom. But no, it's real ... with many of the same faces (and mouths) in the audience each and every session.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

https://www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?id=3622

Let the "ladies" speak for themselves I say


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## In Mufti (Jan 28, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> https://www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?id=3622
> 
> Let the "ladies" speak for themselves I say


I just looked through this web site. They are insane--around the bend--bonkers. Sturday Night Live couldn't come up with stuff this nutty.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

brokencycle said:


> I would like to see those numbers if you find them.


As stated in an earlier post ...



RSS said:


> A few years back, an *in-house* study by Citibank indicated that the average resident of the Berkeley Hills (zip code 94708) has a net worth comparable to that of the average resident of the Bay Area's better known affluent communities ... and a ratio of assets to liabilities that is very _very_ healthy.


I specifically remember this because the information was shared with me by an executive of the bank. Upon discovering that I live in Berkeley's 94708 zip code, he went to his study and pulled the report ... but did not offer me a copy. At the time Citibank was attempting to increase its California business by entering the "right" markets. The purpose of the report was to help determine which markets to target.

Today I talked to that executive by phone ... and while he still did not offer me a copy of the report ... he confirmed my brief summary as correct. He also offered that such financial information is available to the public from various sources. He is not, however, certain that it is available by zip code per their study.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> https://www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?id=3622
> 
> Let the "ladies" speak for themselves I say


You know, this is the first time I've "seen" a CodePink member. Prior to the website I'd only heard about them.

Of course given the press, you'd think half of Berkeley was wearing pink. Now, I _have _been known to miss a thing or two ... but _that_ would be difficult to miss given my interest in attire.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I see there was a protester/police confrontation now. Good work people. Putting people in physical danger to protest for "peace". The irony is almost overwhelming.


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