# George Will on Denim



## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

He forgot to mention that there even those on the Trad Forum who wear jeans. The ne plus ultra of our sad state of affairs. 


April 16, 2009
Forever in Blue Jeans
George Will

WASHINGTON -- On any American street, or in any airport or mall, you see the same sad tableau: A 10-year-old boy is walking with his father, whose development was evidently arrested when he was that age, judging by his clothes. Father and son are dressed identically -- running shoes, T-shirts. And jeans, always jeans. If mother is there, she, too, is draped in denim. 

Writer Daniel Akst has noticed and has had a constructive conniption. He should be given the Presidential Medal of Freedom. He has earned it by identifying an obnoxious misuse of freedom. Writing in The Wall Street Journal, he has denounced denim, summoning Americans to soul-searching and repentance about the plague of that ubiquitous fabric, which is symptomatic of deep disorders in the national psyche.

It is, he says, a manifestation of "the modern trend toward undifferentiated dressing, in which we all strive to look equally shabby." Denim reflects "our most nostalgic and destructive agrarian longings -- the ones that prompted all those exurban McMansions now sliding off their manicured lawns and into foreclosure." Jeans come prewashed and acid-treated to make them look like what they are not -- authentic work clothes for horny-handed sons of toil and the soil. Denim on the bourgeoisie is, Akst says, the wardrobe equivalent of driving a Hummer to a Whole Foods store -- discordant.

Long ago, when James Dean and Marlon Brando wore it, denim was, Akst says, "a symbol of youthful defiance." Today, Silicon Valley billionaires are rebels without causes beyond poses, wearing jeans when introducing new products. Akst's summa contra denim is grand as far as it goes, but it only scratches the surface of this blight on Americans' surfaces. Denim is the infantile uniform of a nation in which entertainment frequently features childlike adults ("Seinfeld," "Two and a Half Men") and cartoons for adults ("King of the Hill"). Seventy-five percent of American "gamers" -- people who play video games -- are older than 18 and nevertheless are allowed to vote. In their undifferentiated dress, children and their childish parents become undifferentiated audiences for juvenilized movies (the six -- so far -- "Batman" adventures and "Indiana Jones and the Credit-Default Swaps," coming soon to a cineplex near you). Denim is the clerical vestment for the priesthood of all believers in democracy's catechism of leveling -- thou shalt not dress better than society's most slovenly. To do so would be to commit the sin of lookism -- of believing that appearance matters. That heresy leads to denying the universal appropriateness of everything, and then to the elitist assertion that there is good and bad taste.

Denim is the carefully calculated costume of people eager to communicate indifference to appearances. But the appearances that people choose to present in public are cues from which we make inferences about their maturity and respect for those to whom they are presenting themselves.

Do not blame Levi Strauss for the misuse of Levis. When the Gold Rush began, Strauss moved to San Francisco planning to sell strong fabric for the 49ers' tents and wagon covers. Eventually, however, he made tough pants, reinforced by copper rivets, for the tough men who knelt on the muddy, stony banks of Northern California creeks, panning for gold. Today it is silly for Americans whose closest approximation of physical labor consists of loading their bags of clubs into golf carts to go around in public dressed for driving steers up the Chisholm Trail to the railhead in Abilene.

This is not complicated. For men, sartorial good taste can be reduced to one rule: If Fred Astaire would not have worn it, don't wear it. For women, substitute Grace Kelly.

Edmund Burke -- what he would have thought of the denimization of America can be inferred from his lament that the French Revolution assaulted "the decent drapery of life"; it is a straight line from the fall of the Bastille to the rise of denim -- said: "To make us love our country, our country ought to be lovely." Ours would be much more so if supposed grown-ups would heed St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, and St. Barack's inaugural sermon to the Americans, by putting away childish things, starting with denim.

(A confession: The author owns one pair of jeans. Wore them once. Had to. Such was the dress code for former Sen. Jack Danforth's 70th birthday party, where Jerry Jeff Walker sang his classic "Up Against the Wall, ******* Mother." Music for a jeans-wearing crowd.)


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## randomdude (Jun 4, 2007)

Even though I don't wear jeans myself, I find this column to be totally insufferable.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I agree with randomdude. George Will is a wuss.

I don't mind jeans. What bothers me is rules against office workers wearing ties. And the charge of elitism levelled against those who prefer to dress in tailored clothing.

This article is exactly the kind of thing that fuels such characterizations. Not that many people will read it or remember it.


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

*well written Will*

I'm old enough to have survived the time of denim-banned secondary school; I wear suits to work and like to dress well. But I love my 501's and am just as happy with them as my shell cordovan wingtips.

George Will also has strong opinions (somewhat dated) on football: "all the attributes of the 20th Century: violence by committee".

I like the article.


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

Not that I want to admit it, but I've seen "Two and a Half Men" and the childish adult usually wears shorts and bowling shirts. It is a neater and more creative look than jeans and t-shirt.

I love that even bow-tie wearing Will notes jeans as an anachronistic fashion. I'd prefer the "Gossip Girl" crowd properly stigmatizing jeans as the true fogey-wear, but it's a start to the meme.


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

Maybe columnists need to attach disclaimers: Warning, this piece is tongue-in-cheek. If you take it seriously, the joke's on you.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

I agree with George Will.

I see nothing wrong with wearing jeans and an oxford or tweed jacket if you are trying to strike a relaxed and casual look, but having Silicon Valley CEOs conduct shareholder meetings in jeans seems awfully contrived to me. 

At the last couple of holiday cocktail parties that I have thrown, certain of my friends have arrived wearing jeans and sneakers. Given that I go to the trouble of inviting them, cleaning up the house, and serving booze and food, I would think they could at least put on some decent shoes. I guess most people do not think that way anymore.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

"Tongue in cheek" would suggest he has no quarrel with denim, that he's just having us on, as you suggest. But his last paragraph is a good summary of George's view.

But if by "tongue in cheek" you mean "smarmy, self-satisfied tone", I'm with you all the way.



Nathan Detroit said:


> Maybe columnists need to attach disclaimers: Warning, this piece is tongue-in-cheek. If you take it seriously, the joke's on you.


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## stfu (Apr 30, 2008)

Wow, this is very interesting, as I am a big fan of both George Will, *and *Jerry Jeff Walker. I'll bet neither wants to hear that.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

randomdude said:


> Even though I don't wear jeans myself, I find this column to be totally insufferable.


Indeed.



Nathan Detroit said:


> Maybe columnists need to attach disclaimers: Warning, this piece is tongue-in-cheek. If you take it seriously, the joke's on you.


George Will is always serious. This has always been a great flaw and blind spot of anyone who, having achieved some measure of competence in one area, chooses to engage anything at all while expecting additional competence to come along without the effort.

But as for the writing in general, if you can't communicate your meaning without disclaimers then you're not doing a good job of it.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)




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## Tradical (Dec 17, 2006)

Anyone wearing that toupee automatically loses the right to comment on anything even remotely related to personal appearance, fashion, or taste. You know a hairpiece is bad when it's the most glaring aspect of a lemon and shamrock ensemble.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

Joe Beamish said:


> I agree with randomdude. George Will is a wuss.
> 
> I don't mind jeans. What bothers me is rules against office workers wearing ties. And the charge of elitism levelled against those who prefer to dress in tailored clothing.
> 
> This article is exactly the kind of thing that fuels such characterizations. Not that many people will read it or remember it.


There are offices that ban ties???


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Joe Beamish said:


>


Those aren't jeans.


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## Hullabaloo (Nov 11, 2008)

Every one of his points is right on the money, so I'm surprised he's getting so much flack in this forum. What specifically is he wrong about?


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## pt10023 (Jan 14, 2008)

Hullabaloo said:


> Every one of his points is right on the money, so I'm surprised he's getting so much flack in this forum. What specifically is he wrong about?


I think people are just expressing the view that the validity or lack thereof of adults wearing jeans of jeans is a matter of subjective opinion, rather than one of objective fact.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Joe Beamish said:


> What bothers me is rules against office workers wearing ties. And the charge of elitism levelled against those who prefer to dress in tailored clothing.


I agree completely. I can't wear a tie because we don't wear ties. People can wear jeans on Friday but if I wear a tie on Friday there is something wrong with me---I am not with the program.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I went to a job interview six months ago wearing a tie, and the prospective boss asked wouldn't I be more comfortable without it? We're pretty relaxed around here. So how would you feel about losing the tie?

I got the job. I still wear ties several times a week, but I know it grates a few people, because we're supposed to be a creative, "cool" department.

Suits, jackets, and ties = uncomfortable, unrelaxed, uncool. That's a very common opinion.

I also have friends whose professional dress codes forbid them to wear ties, not that they mind.

As for me, I'm for looking polished and professional. This is sometimes possible in denim -- depending on several considerations. And this is also possible in a tie.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

stfu said:


> Wow, this is very interesting, as I am a big fan of both George Will, *and *Jerry Jeff Walker. I'll bet neither wants to hear that.


While I have no beef with George Will, I do suspect that Jerry Jeff Walker's music was wasted on him. I'll never forget a night many years ago in a little club listening to Walker perform _Desperados Waiting for a Train,_ written by Guy Clark I think.

_One day I looked up and he's pushin' eighty _
_And there's brown tobacco stains all down his chin_
_Well to me he's one of the heroes of this country_
_So why's he all dressed up like them old men_

Cruiser


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## stfu (Apr 30, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> While I have no beef with George Will, I do suspect that Jerry Jeff Walker's music was wasted on him. I'll never forget a night many years ago in a little club listening to Walker perform _Desperados Waiting for a Train,_ written by Guy Clark I think.
> 
> _One day I looked up and he's pushin' eighty _
> _And there's brown tobacco stains all down his chin_
> ...


Co-rect. Guy Clark, a genius.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Joe Beamish said:


>


I don't care what George Will thinks/writes...I will not accept ward-robing advice from some fool who scratches his arse in public! Now isn't he sophisticated...say wot!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

eagle2250 said:


> I don't care what George Will thinks/writes...I will not accept ward-robing advice from some fool who scratches his arse in public! Now isn't he sophisticated...say wot!


Maybe he's going for his wallet/gun/hankie...


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## PeterSawatzky (Feb 20, 2009)

That picture makes me want to wear nothing but denim. Not just pants, but the whole Canadian tuxedo: jeans, jean shirt, jean jacket. A triple denim disaster.


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## dukekook (Sep 5, 2008)

I am happy to be proverbially on the same page with the OP. I am a native Midwesterner and I grew up on a farm, working. Denim's sole purpose is to be durable enough for hard physical work. Much is said in this forum about the original purpose of say, button-down shirts, but the nature, source and purpose of denim rarely is treated the same way. I am saddened by the prevarications and rationalizations used in this thread to justify wearing jeans for anything but hard work. I too (like Nathan Detroit) own one pair of jeans (Bill's 5-pocket, a steal at US$20), but I also own two pairs of overalls and always have because denim is for labor. I occasionally work around the house, and that is why I have overalls. I bought the Bill's jeans on a lark because I haven't owned a pair of jeans for about ten or twelve years and wanted to see if I was maybe unreasonably excluding them from my wardrobe; I was not.


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## kkollwitz (Oct 31, 2005)

I guess George Will doesn't like jeans. That's ok.

"running shoes, T-shirts. And jeans..." In this instance, it's the ensemble that's the problem, and IMHO, the jeans are the least problematic of the 3 items listed, although to Will, also the most emblematic of the problem.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

While watching _Morning Joe_ today I couldn't help but notice that Joe Scarborough, one of Will's conservative buddies, was wearing jeans with a blazer and open collared dress shirt.

https://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=joescarborough.jpg

Cruiser


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## Green3 (Apr 8, 2008)

stfu said:


> Co-rect. Guy Clark, a genius.


Guy Clark was/is a tremendous songwriter.

I love Jerry Jeff. I am going to try to get to his birthday bash in Austin next year. L.A. Freeway, Night Rider's Lament, Coat from the Cold...so much good work, and he has inspired the likes of Robert Earl Keen and Todd Snider.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Green3 said:


> Guy Clark was/is a tremendous songwriter.
> 
> I love Jerry Jeff. I am going to try to get to his birthday bash in Austin next year.


Forgive me for getting too far off topic, but these names bring back the '70s for me. I was fortunate to live in Nashville during that decade and the music in the Nashville clubs during that time was unbelievable.

For example, I remember one night at a place called the _Exit/In_. I had gone to hear either David Allan Coe or Doc Watson, can't remember which one; and because of the crowd people were sitting anywhere there was a chair. My girlfriend and I were at a table alone and since we had several empty chairs at the table folks started joining us. Next thing I know we are sitting there with Bobby Bare and Billy Joe Shaver listening to the music. Bare paid for our drinks. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## randomdude (Jun 4, 2007)

^ Exit/In rules!!!!


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## Hullabaloo (Nov 11, 2008)

pt10023 said:


> I think people are just expressing the view that the validity or lack thereof of adults wearing jeans of jeans is a matter of subjective opinion, rather than one of objective fact.


In that case this forum is something of a waste since much of what is discussed here is subjective opinion rather than objective fact.

I suspect Will's critics are just hung up on his politics. That is obviously a topic for another forum, but it is a shame some people can't focus on his column's merits or lack thereof. Also, that outfit he is being mocked for wearing would fit in the Trad What Are You Wearing thread. The toupee is another story.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Hullabaloo said:


> In that case this forum is something of a waste since much of what is discussed here is subjective opinion rather than objective fact.


I think you missed his point. He isn't saying that those opinions are a "waste" or that they shouldn't be expressed. I think he is saying that too many people are trying to present their subjective opinions as fact rather than what they are, subjective opinions. At least I think that is what he is saying. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> While I have no beef with George Will, I do suspect that Jerry Jeff Walker's music was wasted on him. I'll never forget a night many years ago in a little club listening to Walker perform _Desperados Waiting for a Train,_ written by Guy Clark I think.
> 
> _One day I looked up and he's pushin' eighty _
> _And there's brown tobacco stains all down his chin_
> ...





Green3 said:


> Guy Clark was/is a tremendous songwriter.
> 
> I love Jerry Jeff. I am going to try to get to his birthday bash in Austin next year. L.A. Freeway, Night Rider's Lament, Coat from the Cold...so much good work, and he has inspired the likes of Robert Earl Keen and Todd Snider.





Cruiser said:


> Forgive me for getting too far off topic, but these names bring back the '70s for me. I was fortunate to live in Nashville during that decade and the music in the Nashville clubs during that time was unbelievable.
> 
> For example, I remember one night at a place called the _Exit/In_. I had gone to hear either David Allan Coe or Doc Watson, can't remember which one; and because of the crowd people were sitting anywhere there was a chair. My girlfriend and I were at a table alone and since we had several empty chairs at the table folks started joining us. Next thing I know we are sitting there with Bobby Bare and Billy Joe Shaver listening to the music. Bare paid for our drinks. :icon_smile:
> 
> Cruiser





randomdude said:


> ^ Exit/In rules!!!!


Saw, and spent the evening listening to stories from, Kris Kristofferson at the Exit/In when I lived in Nashville... and have indeed met all of the folks mentioned above.

Never thought a discussion on the trad forum and alt country (the turning country on it's "X" kind, that is) would coincide. Kooky, that.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I don't wear jeans much because I find them hot and uncomfortable.

The regular old chino is an infinitely superior garment for just knocking around.

George Will should calm down, though. Americans look like hell with or without jeans.


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## pt10023 (Jan 14, 2008)

Hullabaloo said:


> In that case this forum is something of a waste since much of what is discussed here is subjective opinion rather than objective fact.
> 
> I suspect Will's critics are just hung up on his politics. That is obviously a topic for another forum, but it is a shame some people can't focus on his column's merits or lack thereof. Also, that outfit he is being mocked for wearing would fit in the Trad What Are You Wearing thread. The toupee is another story.


I agree on his outfit; I think it looks fine. Regarding Will's critics being hung up on his politics, I don't really see where you're getting that from. I think people are really just commenting on his comments about jeans. The column's well-written, but the tone seems rather condescending to those who choose to wear jeans. He doesn't present his comments as his "opinions" about wearing jeans, he presents them as if they were "the facts" about wearing jeans. I'm guessing that the column's tongue-in-cheek, I don't really know, but it's bound to elicit a reaction. I suppose it's possible that the negative reactions are fueled by disagreement with his politics. If you want to look at it that way, though, it's also possible that the positive reactions are motivated by defensiveness on the part of those who adhere to his political views. I really do think, however, that most posters are just talking about jeans.



Cruiser said:


> I think you missed his point. He isn't saying that those opinions are a "waste" or that they shouldn't be expressed. I think he is saying that too many people are trying to present their subjective opinions as fact rather than what they are, subjective opinions. At least I think that is what he is saying. :icon_smile:
> 
> Cruiser


That's exactly what I was trying to say Cruiser, thanks.


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## Green3 (Apr 8, 2008)

Desk Jockey,

I've never considered most of that stuff alt-country. My country music has a pretty big tent, although there is no room for so-called "new country", which I politely call "not country" or "sh!! country".

For the record I don't know Will's politics, the outfit looks okay, not sure if that is a bad rug or just bad hair, and I know he is a baseball purist, and some of those guys are hard to tolerate.


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## randomdude (Jun 4, 2007)

One thing that's particularly jarring is how dated this column is. I mean seriously, in 2009, now he is going to write a column decrying the wearing of jeans? Shouldn't the point about Silicon Valley kingpins wearing jeans have been made, I dunno, 10 or 15 years ago when it was occurring? He's only just realizing that the richest people in America no longer dress in a tuxedo and top hat?


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## JosephM (Dec 17, 2008)

randomdude said:


> He's only just realizing that the richest people in America no longer dress in a tuxedo and top hat?


PITA Moment:

Well, randomdude, although technically it is correct to wear a top hat with a tuxedo, a gentleman usually wears a homburg if he decides to wear headgear with semiformal wear (i.e., tuxedo.) A top hat is usually reserved for formalwear, such as white tie or a morning coat.

JM


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

Tradical said:


> Anyone wearing that toupee automatically loses the right to comment on anything even remotely related to personal appearance, fashion, or taste. You know a hairpiece is bad when it's the most glaring aspect of a lemon and shamrock ensemble.


Sorry, but I feel I must defend Mr. Will on behalf of all of us side-parters on this point.

Just because a man wears a side parting doesn't mean he has a toupee.
I know I come from a long line of men with very thick, very fast growing hair, and a side parting is often the best choice to make.
I'd like to think I look a little better than Mr. Wil in mine, but f I used lots of hair goop, and very neatly combed mine down, I think we'd look similar.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Hair goop? Everyone knows the only product worth a salt is Murray's. :icon_smile_big:


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## mczewd (Jul 21, 2008)

Mr. Will failed to reference Oliver Wendell Douglas sitting atop his Green Acres tractor dressed in the attire of a Manhattan lawyer.

I agree with a previous poster: if all the denim were piled up and burned, American sartorial style would still be the pits. Jeans should hardly be the scapegoat.


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## Piscator (Dec 4, 2008)

Patrick06790 said:


> I don't wear jeans much because I find them hot and uncomfortable.
> 
> The regular old chino is an infinitely superior garment for just knocking around.
> 
> George Will should calm down, though. Americans look like hell with or without jeans.


Just wonderfully stated, Patrick...

I went to a new contemporary worship service this evening in chinos, a rumpled OCBD, and weejuns...I was told by several people that my "slacks" were a bit much for such a "casual" service 

Oh well...to each his own.

Tom


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## Thermactor (Feb 8, 2009)

Denim is tasteless, low-class trash.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Patrick06790 said:


> I don't wear jeans much because I find them hot and uncomfortable.
> 
> The regular old chino is an infinitely superior garment for just knocking around.
> 
> George Will should calm down, though. Americans look like hell with or without jeans.


As usual, Patrick has nailed it. I've owned one pair of jeans in my life and that was purchased specifically to accompany a young lady to a John Denver concert in 1974. He's gone, the jeans are long gone and haven't heard from her since the concert.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I own a single pair of jeans and they are selvage denim. They've held up pretty well, but I'm trying to wear chinos more in my rotation. Maybe add something a little different but still casual like five pocket canvas trousers or something.


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## Christopher_NY (Mar 31, 2005)

PeterSawatzky said:


> That picture makes me want to wear nothing but denim. Not just pants, but the whole Canadian tuxedo: jeans, jean shirt, jean jacket. A triple denim disaster.


In its native habitat, the whole Canadian tuxedo must be a sight to behold.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

PeterSawatzky said:


> That picture makes me want to wear nothing but denim. Not just pants, but the whole Canadian tuxedo: jeans, jean shirt, jean jacket. A triple denim disaster.


Although you can't see the jeans in the picture, I did triple denim back in 1973. I'm sure the shoes were canvas Chuck Taylors since that's all I wore back then. In a way that would actually make it quadruple denim. :icon_smile_big:

https://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0002.gif

Cruiser


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Cruiser: Looking good in the snapshot! You wore the denim well. Although, I am happy to see you decided to get a bit more conservative with the haircut!


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## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> Although you can't see the jeans in the picture, I did triple denim back in 1973. I'm sure the shoes were canvas Chuck Taylors since that's all I wore back then. In a way that would actually make it quadruple denim. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> https://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0002.gif
> 
> Cruiser


Triple Denim. A Canadian tuxedo.


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## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> Sorry, but I feel I must defend Mr. Will on behalf of all of us side-parters on this point.
> 
> Just because a man wears a side parting doesn't mean he has a toupee.
> I know I come from a long line of men with very thick, very fast growing hair, and a side parting is often the best choice to make.
> I'd like to think I look a little better than Mr. Wil in mine, but f I used lots of hair goop, and very neatly combed mine down, I think we'd look similar.


Are saying that is not a rug on George Will's head? The guy is 67 years old. If that hair is real and the color not dyed, then my hat is off to George Will.


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

Thermactor said:


> Denim is tasteless, low-class trash.


To each his own (subjective opinion)...

hbs


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> I am happy to see you decided to get a bit more conservative with the haircut!


If you think about it, what choice did I have? Most of it fell out. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Thermactor said:


> Denim is tasteless, low-class trash.


I'm starting to think that about some of your posts although I admit I have seen worse on the subject of denim.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Thermactor said:


> Denim is tasteless, low-class trash.


Possibly. What is without question is that it doesn't drape worth a damn...


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## Tradical (Dec 17, 2006)

joeyzaza said:


> If that hair is real and the color not dyed, then my hat is off to George Will.


Oh, the hair is probably real; it just didn't grow on his head. The man wears a wig, which may or may not be trad, but after all is neither a crime nor his most embarrassing public act.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

George Will is right.

I remember wearing jeans in the 70's when my parents dressed me because I was too young to understand what was proper or acceptable. At that time jeans were THE THING TO WEAR and the Canadian tuxedo was king for under 30s. Jeans were always rough, tough fabric which made sense for a child who runs around in the woods, falls on the concrete and tarmac playing wild basketball/hockey/baseball, and climbed every tree in a 5 mile radius.

As an adult, the fabric is a sartorial crime aside from work where knees hit dirt or pavement. It looks like crap, and there is absolutely no way to dress it up. But, that's ok if the fabric is used for intended purposes. When I see someone in jeans and blazer, it looks creepy, as if the person is trying to straddle the fence. It cries loudly to proclaim the insecurity of the wearer : child below the waist, attempting maturity above the waist.... that is probably accurate most times.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

Jeans and blazer is the 21st century equivalent of the Mullet. Business on top, party below the waist.


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## Chengdu nanhai (Apr 12, 2009)

Nathan Detroit said:


> Seventy-five percent of American "gamers" -- people who play video games -- are older than 18 and nevertheless are allowed to vote.


Now why the heck is that related to the jeans conversation? And according to Will, gaming=inability to make political decisions? Even though I am not a gamer (used to play a little early in college), Will's baseless assertion and pompousness fills me with revulsion.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Well, in many settings, a jeans and blazer can give off a sharp yet relaxed appearance. It depends on the wearer, and on the jeans. 

Dressing "trad" -- as pictured in too many of the WAYWT posts -- can result a rigidly fixed uniform, a loony self-serious costume that doesn't always travel everywhere especially when one is under a certain age.


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## Mark L. (Feb 23, 2009)

Nathan Detroit said:


> This is not complicated. For men, sartorial good taste can be reduced to one rule: If Fred Astaire would not have worn it, don't wear it.


This kind of thing is becoming increasingly obscure, silly and quaint.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Preu Pummel said:


> George Will is right.


George Will is blowhard who needed a column topic on a slow news day. He knows full well that Ronald Reagan not only wore jeans but posed in them for staged photos, because the late president understood that jeans projected an image of casual, youthful vigor. Other men like to wear jeans for the same reason. Where's the problem?

Of course, Mr. Reagan was able to accessorise those jeans with horses and a ranch. But surely Will wouldn't want to imply that jeans are only for the wealthy.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Chengdu nanhai said:


> Now why the heck is that related to the jeans conversation? And according to Will, gaming=inability to make political decisions? Even though I am not a gamer (used to play a little early in college), Will's baseless assertion and pompousness fills me with revulsion.


My thoughts exactly. Way back when, they blamed TV for being "what's wrong with kids these days." Now video games are just ANOTHER in the long line of convenient-and-not-well-researched scapegoats used by the media.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

Funny, when I walk out of the house I've never really thought about what a 68 y/o conservative political columnist might think about my clothes.

I don't plan to begin doing so now.

DH


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit (Dec 25, 2008)

While I appreciate an assault on dressing like a slob, no matter the standard, it's highly doubtful that denim is the cause.


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## gfreaky (May 14, 2008)

A youngster's perspective:

I go to a pretty well known college in the Midwest. It's really amazing to me what young people wear these days. The vast majority of young men don't wear chinos/khakis regularly (I'm willing to be that most don't even own a pair). What I find really hideous, though, are the cargo shorts with an inseam below the wearer's knees. Or wearing a wife beater out in public. I know some friends that didn't even have the foresight to bring a business suit or blazer to college!

Not that the women are any better. I'm not a fan of the whole spandex leggings fad, personally.

Some of the Fraternity men are slightly better. I wasn't sure if this was a Midwest thing or not, but I don't think it is. Ahh well...


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## Mark L. (Feb 23, 2009)

gfreaky said:


> Not that the women are any better. I'm not a fan of the whole spandex leggings fad, personally.


I do believe this is where our opinions start to diverge...
:icon_smile_wink:


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## gfreaky (May 14, 2008)

Ha!

Let me just say this: some women need to be a little more aware of their bodies. There are some that definitely should not be in leggings


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## waltj (Oct 9, 2005)

George Wills prentention knows no bounds.........

I wear jeans on occasion. I'd like to think there is a time and place. 

But he's right. The american style has become athletic shabby.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

> we all strive to look equally shabby


Tacky similitude is the unfortunate destiny of Socialism!!


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

Nathan Detroit said:


> April 16, 2009
> Forever in Blue Jeans
> George Will
> 
> ...


People are slobs, but jeans are not the problem.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Joe Beamish said:


>


I saw GW walking around the neighborhood the other day and his (??) hair did not look that bad!!

On bad hair days I just wear a cap!!


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## Serenus (Jun 19, 2009)

Occasionally I will wear a pair of jeans when I go hiking. Other than that, I don't go there anymore.

An interesting development in the jeans-manufacturing industry is the astonishing proliferation of techniques for "prewearing" or "distressing" the fabric. We have all seen jeans that look like they have taken an acid bath. Quite understandably, the majority of the jeans-wearing public feels the necessity to conform ("I must wear the same as everyone else, can't stand out!"), but also needs to "individualize" simultaneously. The "individualization" of jeans is done in such a way as to only give the customer/wearer the illusion of making an independent, free choice since the psudo-unique distressed garment is being sold in thousands of identical chain stores across the world.

When I see a woman wearing acid-washed jeans that are two sizes too tight, resulting in her hips overflowing the bounds of the garment (is the word "garment" even appropriate?) I need a good swig on my flask and at least 24 hours to recover.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

Jeebus, what a load. Jeans, like just about any garment, can work just fine when employed with a sense of style.

And he's really out of date. I see 9/10 guys on the street wearing capri-length cargo pants of one sort or another. Jeans, even baggy, acid-washed monstrosities, would be an immense improvement.

Denim is just another option, to be used or misused. Tell Mr. Will Andy Rooney wants his shtick back.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

Serenus said:


> Quite understandably, the majority of the jeans-wearing public feels the necessity to conform ("I must wear the same as everyone else, can't stand out!"), but also needs to "individualize" simultaneously. The "individualization" of jeans is done in such a way as to only give the customer/wearer the illusion of making an independent, free choice since the psudo-unique distressed garment is being sold in thousands of identical chain stores across the world.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Careful, you skirt the Fussell Fallacy, ascribing psycho/sociological meanings to a choice that may simply be a matter of aesthetics--maybe consumer X just likes the way those pre-distressed jeans look, rather than using them as some kind of statement of individuality.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm with you there. It's not just those men -- on clothing forums as well, we read a little much into people's choices to make ourselves sound superior sometimes. It's not a good line of thought and leads to the rampant cattiness across all of them. The only time I actually get offended by someone's clothing choices are when people are inappropriately dressed to funerals, weddings or other very personal events and are quite capable of doing better (and thus showing some respect for the hosts). At school, casual restaurants, and grocery stores, I really couldn't care less if someone rolled out of bed and came in their PJs.


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## Pale Male (Mar 24, 2008)

*At school... in their PJs*

How sad.

I want more dress codes, stricter, and vigorously enforced. I do find it curious to find so many defenders of the slob here on a clothing forum specifically devoted to "trad".


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

So I'm a defender of the slob because I don't care how others dress most of the time? Talk about guilty by association. Yeesh!


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I'm anti-slob in the workplace, but jeans aren't a make-or-break garment in this respect. People should show some sense of sharpness and grooming, saying "I care." Saying I respect others. This is possible with or without denim. 

Shirts should have collars, and should usually be tucked in. 

For me, jeans expand my palette quite a bit. Other dark pants can be too formal or stuffy in some situations. 

And for guys who like women, I think ladies tend to favor jeans on men, very often. (Just an observation for the few of you who could give a flip about something besides dudes and their clothes.)


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## KCKclassic (Jul 27, 2009)

Jovan said:


> I'm with you there. It's not just those men -- on clothing forums as well, we read a little much into people's choices to make ourselves sound superior sometimes. It's not a good line of thought and leads to the rampant cattiness across all of them. The only time I actually get offended by someone's clothing choices are when people are inappropriately dressed to funerals, weddings or other very personal events and are quite capable of doing better (and thus showing some respect for the hosts). At school, casual restaurants, and grocery stores, I really couldn't care less if someone rolled out of bed and came in their PJs.


I could not agree any more. I like looking nice, good, above average, etc., just like everyone here, but some take it as seriously as heart-surgery. 
I don't eat meat. Am I offended if others do?

Not in the least. Eat what you want, wear what you want. I'm no fan of being told what to do, so I don't tell others.

FWIW--wore a blue uni-stripe ocbd, oatmeal land's end wool sweater, and, drumroll, jeans today. Just regular, straight, dark-ish denim jeans. A certain young lady I've been chatting up commented on how nice I looked. I think it was the jeans.........


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Joe Beamish said:


> And for guys who like women, I think ladies tend to favor jeans on men, very often. (Just an observation for the few of you who could give a flip about something besides dudes and their clothes.)


:icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big: I agree. There are many occasions where women prefer a guy in a well fitting pair of jeans. Just about any item of clothing, including jeans, can look good and just about any item of clothing can look bad. It's all about using common sense.

Cruiser


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## pt10023 (Jan 14, 2008)

Jovan said:


> So I'm a defender of the slob because I don't care how others dress most of the time? Talk about guilty by association. Yeesh!


Yeah I don't get that at all. I participate in this forum because I like wearing trad clothes and like talking to others who enjoy doing so, not because I think others should be forced to dress like me or looked down upon for not adhering to my dress code. I assume others do the same. And I don't think the fact that you won't say condescending things about people who choose to wear jeans makes you a defender of the slob. It just means you respect the right of others to make decisions different from those that you would make.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

It's not just ladies who like men in well-fitted jeans. It seems like a pretty universal thing right now -- gay or straight, male or female. I doubt most of the straight men here wouldn't find a young woman in fitted jeans to be a nice sight. Of course, I guess it must be skirts only if you are _really_ "trad." :icon_smile_big:


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## KCKclassic (Jul 27, 2009)

she wore boots with the fur, apple bottom jeans.....

OK, not exactly my cup of tea. For proof of lovely female form in denim one need look no furthur than the recent issue of (much maligned) GQ. Gap jeans advert......pullout.....Isabeli Fontana, fit: Curvy.

I approve


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Jovan said:


> It's not just ladies who like men in well-fitted jeans. It seems like a pretty universal thing right now -- gay or straight, male or female. I doubt most of the straight men here wouldn't find a young woman in fitted jeans to be a nice sight. Of course, I guess it must be skirts only if you are _really_ "trad." :icon_smile_big:


While I am certainly not one to look away when an attractive lady in form fitting jeans comes on the radar screen, I must admit...to my eyes...it cannot compare to an attractive lady wearing a closely fit, pleated wool skirt in combination with tastefully designed riding boots. (Heavy sigh), Perhaps it's a generational thing?


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I don't think it's really about tight fitting jeans -- that's a different kind of appeal. 

I think women like jeans (preferably dark, well fitting but not necessarily tight ones) because they give a relaxed, masculine look. Wearing them with a tucked in, collared shirt, and even a sport jacket works best, I think.

Maybe it's the mix that's appealing. Nice shirt, jacket, AND jeans. Nice AND a little rough. Not a fudddy-duddy.

The tight jean thing is a different animal altogether. That's almost like Speedos: Universally unappealing unless you're an Adonis. And even then you might make lots of people hate you.


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## redmanca (May 29, 2008)

sigh. I can't believe this thread is back. It didn't go anywhere last time and it clearly isn't going anywhere this time either. Just let it die. 

Conor


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## aspectator (Aug 27, 2008)

Joe Beamish said:


>


I have a feeling that Fred Astaire would not have worn this. That is my hope, anyway.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)




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## Ricardo-CL (Mar 31, 2009)

How is it possible that someone could make such a fuss for a simple piece of clothing? Is it really that bad to be worthy of an article on the press? Aren't journalist supposed to inform to help us to make better decisions towards personal and global wealth?

How is it possible that I never read anything related to real issues in the North American society? I find outrageous how rare is to find a bilingual or even a trilingual college graduate, or how bad is the handwriting, or the reading comprehension... I find those issues way more worthy of an article than a complaining about denims.... with so many well prepared re-located professionals, and so much obsession over clothing, I think sooner than later America will become a nation of well-dressed-good-for-nothing-people.

I'm sorry for putting it this way, but I've been teaching to an ADP (advanced development program) group of a multinational corporation in the States, which supposedly recruits only top notch students, how the Latin American market behaves. And I can't stop to be surprised what the priorities of these young fellas are.

So from now on, I'm gonna wear jeans every-time the code doesn't state otherwise. :idea:


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## KCKclassic (Jul 27, 2009)

said:


> I think sooner than later America will become a nation of well-dressed-good-for-nothing-people.


unfortuntately you are likely half right. Care to wager which half?


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Conor, I'm not sure the "go anywhere" criterion makes a strong argument in the context of this forum, or the other one. Ninety percent of these threads go in circles -- and that's alright with me. :icon_smile:



redmanca said:


> sigh. I can't believe this thread is back. It didn't go anywhere last time and it clearly isn't going anywhere this time either. Just let it die.
> 
> Conor


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## redmanca (May 29, 2008)

Joe Beamish said:


> Conor, I'm not sure the "go anywhere" criterion makes a strong argument in the context of this forum, or the other one. Ninety percent of these threads go in circles -- and that's alright with me. :icon_smile:


Hah, you're absolutely right Joe. I guess it's just the jeans threads that bug me. It's the reason I never post pictures of myself in jeans (except on my blog, 'cause I'm the last authority there :icon_smile_wink: ), even though it's what I wear most of the time. Too many hard feelings between the haters and the lovers. I'd prefer not to get into it.

Conor


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Joe Beamish: I'm not necessarily saying _tight_ fitting jeans -- just ones that work well and are flattering on the wearer. For instance, I'm a fan of regular fits that have a slight taper to 17" and aren't too loose or tight given that I'm quite slender.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Conor -- You're right. The jeans discussion is particularly predictable. It's a binary subject. You're either for or against!

Jovan -- I hear ya. My favorite these days is the Levi's 514 model. Nothing fancy, but the fit is good, not "too" anything.


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