# The Trad Sportsmen's Thread



## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

At the suggestion of another fellow trad sportsman, this thread has been created to talk about all things hunting and fishing and most especially those that relate to the trad aspects of such: double barrel shotguns, waxed field coats, lanolized wool, etc.

I'll start by soliciting advice: I recently accepted a new job and my severance from the position I'm leaving will be more than was anticipated. After calculating a healthy chunk to go into savings, I'm looking at buying another shotgun - one my SO can shoot (she's short, so it matters) but also one I can shoot that will be easy to swing on dove and other upland game. I want it to be no more than 7lbs and no longer than 46". I'm still undecided on 12 vs 20. I have two 12's with bbl lengths 28" and 30" that both shoot 3.5's, so you can see where most of my interest lies. For the first time, I'm also open to doubles. 

Advice?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

And just for fun, here I am in the blind during the early season split (hence the t-shirt).


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

Really want to return to my deer hunting roots and to start hunting fowl, but the time and money involved is sort of a deal breaker as this stage of life.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

If you're planning on doing any quail hunting with it, I'd suggest a 20 gauge. 12's can just ruin the meat. My father actually uses a 28. Double barrel, too, since you'll be unloading and loading pretty frequently. It's also a little easier to explain loading/unloading if your SO isn't very experienced. You could look at getting one with two sets of barrels to exchange, either 20 and 12 or 28 and 20, to give you some flexibility. That being said, quail is the vast majority of my experience so you may want to look at other opinions if you'll be using it for other quarry.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

WillBarrett said:


> Really want to return to my deer hunting roots and to start hunting fowl, but the time and money involved is sort of a deal breaker as this stage of life.


Deer hunting can be cheap depending on your access to land. Deer land is far more copious than waterfowl land, too, so it should be easy to find a farmer who is willing to let you hunt his land for free just to keep the deer off his crop. Waterfowl hunting is expensive. No two ways about it. Boats, dogs, gear, blinds, next thing you know you're in it for $15k easy. Actually the cheapest way to get into waterfowl it to hire a guide a couple times per season. Most guides are $125-200 and they do all the leg work (scouting, building the blind, training the dog, etc). You'd spend that much on supplies to build one blind, much less the 20 blinds and respective land leases that accompany them if you did it yourself. All you need then is a good jacket and a gun. Most guides will even provide you with waders if you need them, and many will supply a gun at no charge if you just ask.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Reuben said:


> If you're planning on doing any quail hunting with it, I'd suggest a 20 gauge. 12's can just ruin the meat. My father actually uses a 28. Double barrel, too, since you'll be unloading and loading pretty frequently. It's also a little easier to explain loading/unloading if your SO isn't very experienced. You could look at getting one with two sets of barrels to exchange, either 20 and 12 or 28 and 20, to give you some flexibility. That being said, quail is the vast majority of my experience so you may want to look at other opinions if you'll be using it for other quarry.


Quail are in my future, but not in great numbers. But all that stuff applies to chukar and pheasant too, really. My only qualm with the double is that your reload is slower and you get one less shot per reload. I'll probably try to coax the lady out to hit clays once this winter (a good friend of hers just discovered the joys of skeet shooting so now she's amenable to the idea) and then more as the weather warms up. Maybe try to get her on a private dove shoot in September - I wouldn't risk taking her to a public dove field as it is total chaos, full of un-safe morons, and would scare her away from it for life.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Tilton said:


> Quail are in my future, but not in great numbers. But all that stuff applies to chukar and pheasant too, really. My only qualm with the double is that your reload is slower and you get one less shot per reload. I'll probably try to coax the lady out to hit clays once this winter (a good friend of hers just discovered the joys of skeet shooting so now she's amenable to the idea) and then more as the weather warms up. Maybe try to get her on a private dove shoot in September - I wouldn't risk taking her to a public dove field as it is total chaos, full of un-safe morons, and would scare her away from it for life.


 With quail at least, two shots is plenty with a flushed covey and any pairs or singles you track down after that. Being able to quickly load/reload is much more important and in my experience a double is much quicker to reload than either a pump or a semi-auto.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

A Trad sportsman, and any other shotgunner who thinks, would never say that he had a choice between a 12 and a 20. There are so many other possibilities. No, a 12 will not "ruin the meat"--unless you insist on using high base duck loads on quail. Such twaddle. 12 ga loads, even in the standard American 2 3/4" chambers can be had in loads as heavy as an ounce and 7/8ths and as light as a 7/8 oz international trap load. Personally, my favorite load on all upland game is an ounce of nickle plated #7 1//2's. The plating makes the shot slippery so it penetrates feathers better and goes clear through the bird. This avoids teeth damage.

But since my favorite load is an ounce, why get a 12 at all? The perfect ga. for an ounce of shot is a 16. The competition skeet crowd did the rest of the shotgunning world a vast disfavor when they settled on 12, 20, 28, and .410. The last two are either toys or experts' guns and have no place in the field for normal people. Reuban's deadeye father is an exception. Besides, have you _priced_ 28 ga. ammo? Out of sight! So get her a light 12 ga and buy a case or two of 28 gram. trap loads and quail/dove/snipe, etc. away. Hell, I kill pheasant dead in the air over a dog with that load . . . unless you really are a Trad gentleman. Then you will go looking for a Sweet 16. Browning O/U's are the most common on the used gun market but you can find some lovely Italians and Germans. And you will have as much fun hunting for the Perfect Gun as you will hunting birds.

Weidmannsheil!

p.s. If you can wait a few months for my UK contact to get his medical problems straightened out, I may be able to help you with a vintage British, especially in 2 1/2" chambers. Now that's a soft shooting gun.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Oldsarge said:


> A Trad sportsman, and any other shotgunner who thinks, would never say that he had a choice between a 12 and a 20. There are so many other possibilities. No, a 12 will not "ruin the meat"--unless you insist on using high base duck loads on quail. Such twaddle. 12 ga loads, even in the standard American 2 3/4" chambers can be had in loads as heavy as an ounce and 7/8ths and as light as a 7/8 oz international trap load. Personally, my favorite load on all upland game is an ounce of nickle plated #7 1//2's. The plating makes the shot slippery so it penetrates feathers better and goes clear through the bird. This avoids teeth damage.
> 
> The last two are either toys or experts' guns and have no place in the field for normal people. Reuban's deadeye father is an exception.


I guess I've only ever seen relatively inexperienced quail hunters with 12 gauges, so the shredded quail may be more a result of people shooting too soon. And if you think my dad's a deadeye, Oldsarge, you should see the local guide we use on occasion. He hunts quail and shoots skeet with a .410, it's absolutely insane. I've even seen him break a clay with a .22 once to win a bet. Took him a good eight or nine tries, but he did it. The man's a natural.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Once upon a time, I had a 16ga Remington 870. It was a great gun, but that 16ga ammo is dang near impossible to find anymore around here, which is why I got rid of it. 

I was only thinking 20ga for something different - I'm partial to a 12 and it has been my experience that many 12's are softer shooting than 20's because the 20's are built lighter and more nimble but are often still shooting the same loads. 

2 1/2s are worthless to me because of ammunition availability. I'm not about to start reloading (I'd love to, but I can't fit another hobby into my apartment). .410 is fun and can be appropriate on dove in my experience, but the shells are outrageously priced and getting harder and harder to find.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Reuben said:


> I guess I've only ever seen relatively inexperienced quail hunters with 12 gauges, so the shredded quail may be more a result of people shooting too soon. And if you think my dad's a deadeye, Oldsarge, you should see the local guide we use on occasion. He hunts quail and shoots skeet with a .410, it's absolutely insane. I've even seen him break a clay with a .22 once to win a bet. Took him a good eight or nine tries, but he did it. The man's a natural.


I've killed my share of dove and quail with a 12 and never had much trouble. The trick is to use the right loads: for dove and quail, which are easy to kill, a 12ga should be set up using a 1 1/8oz and #7.5 shot with a IM choke. That is a good set up if you're flushing quail or if you're pass shooting dove. Closer range dove, move it down to 7/8oz and #8.

I grew up hunting grouse with a .410/.22 o/u. But Virginia-style grouse hunting is usually done without a dog and you use the .22 to take them in the head on the ground and the .410 if they fly.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I may also add that I'm hoping not to spend more then $1500 or so. 

Right now I'm looking at the Benelli Montefeltro in 20ga/24" bbl, Winchester 101, or Browning Citori Hunter.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

If you move quick . . .


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

You really need to plan ahead if you use a 16. It can be challenging to find shells.

Other than looking cool (and they really do look cool), I don't see any benefit to a double. A lot of guys that I hunt with have beautiful doubles, and while I admire their looks I can't think of any real purpose.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

It's an aesthetic thing. I just like the feel of a double. Admittedly, my waterfowler is a Beretta SemiAuto because it kicks so much less and I'm old and arthritic. On the other hand there is no shotgun made whose looks and handling surpasses the old Winchester Model 12 pump. As eminent an authority as Gough Thomas has said so. The finest game shot I ever was out with, my old friend Bill Hart, shot nothing but a customized M12 and he was a bad man to be a bird in the same field with. So it all depends on what kind of shooting snob you are. Fate has presented me with a Jeffrey SLE in 2 1/2" built in 1909. Unfortunately, I've been too busy to put it to work. That simply has to change. After all, RST sells 1 oz 7 1/2's in 2 1/2" by the case. I just need to get off my butt and get some.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

My backup gun is a Franchi - I'd forgotten they also make doubles. I will look into those because my 712 is a wonderful gun.

Pleasehelp, I'm with you. But, having a few autoloaders, I was thinking of branching out and trying something different for a change. Not having a third shot is a thing, but it might be a good thing and encourage better shooting. But maybe not.


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

Hi Tilton, I live in DC too and have been thinking about getting into upland bird hunting. I've been fly fishing and target shooting my whole life and hunting is always something I've wanted to get into, but I haven't had friends or family to get me into it. Any suggestions for a beginner? I suppose the thing to do would be to find some game preserves/farms that are managed for hunting. I saw that there's a place out near Culpepper.

Still don't have my own gun (I rent them for the day at Bull Run shooting range) though I did recently go to the DC firearms registration office to get the forms that I need. The whole process doesn't look as difficult for DC residents as I thought it would be.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Hayek said:


> Hi Tilton, I live in DC too and have been thinking about getting into upland bird hunting. I've been fly fishing and target shooting my whole life and hunting is always something I've wanted to get into, but I haven't had friends or family to get me into it. Any suggestions for a beginner? I suppose the thing to do would be to find some game preserves/farms that are managed for hunting. I saw that there's a place out near Culpepper.
> 
> Still don't have my own gun (I rent them for the day at Bull Run shooting range) though I did recently go to the DC firearms registration office to get the forms that I need. The whole process doesn't look as difficult for DC residents as I thought it would be.


Yeah, bird hunting is a pricey endeavor unless you go on guided hunts: you've got to lease land with birds on it or put them there yourself, you've got to get a dog to find em, etc. I'd look at hunting preserves in MD or DE. They will have better upland birds and will be about the same distance away as Culpepper and they're really not expensive unless you want to go every weekend. If it is duck you're interested in, I know a local duck and goose guide very well and his rates are good. I think he can supply a gun and waders. If you want to go, I'm game any time.

On a side note: do you fly fish in/around DC much? I'm a shad fanatic and those striper are pretty fun too.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Glad to see you started this thread, Tilt. My upland gun is a beater 20ga., J.C. Higgins-branded, Stevens 311 sxs from the '60s. While ballistically, a 12ga. can perform identically with the right loads, ergonomically I wouldn't trade one for the other. The 20ga. feels natural and is easy to point. The two barrels have different chokes for a longer follow up shot. And the weight of a 20ga on a long hunt isn't as noticeable as a 12ga. 

However, if this is meant for your wife who is smaller and not an experienced shooter, the 20ga. sxs is not automatically the right answer. The lighter weight and short action doesn't help mitigate felt recoil. Dual triggers can be difficult to use (and painful if your fingers are in the wrong place) and a tight/new action can make it difficult to break open. Just to get her into the sport, a long barreled 12ga. gas auto (NOT inertia driven) adjusted for light loads is much easier to shoot due to the reduced recoil (both from bleeding gas pressure and heavier weight) and quicker follow-up shots.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

FWIW, I was only looking at o/u, single trigger guns and both my autoloaders are inertia driven and I would have to stumble into a very, very good deal to buy another gas gun. IMO, inertia is the way to go.


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## MikeF (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm a lifetime bird hunter, I grew up around bird dogs and shotguns and my father was a walking encyclopedia of all things upland birds. If I remembered half of what I learned from him I could write the book on bird hunting. That said, I have almost always used a 20ga. gun as did my father. The importtant thing isn't so much the gauge though, it's the barrel length and choke. You shouldn't have over a 26" inch barrel except maybe out west in open prairie but even then I have had no problem with a short barrel. Most modern guns have screw in chokes, with an auto use improved cylinder and with a double gun use improved and modified. If you get an auto I recommend a Browning A5, they are pretty much the original and sturdiest of the autos. I use an old Ithaca SKB sxs 20ga. to hunt now though. It is the best bird gun I have ever used and I think can still be had at a reasonable price if you look for a while. As far as dogs go, I have a pair of Belton English Setters. There is no better choice, to me anyway, than that bloodline for hunting and family dogs.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tilton said:


> FWIW, I was only looking at o/u, single trigger guns and both my autoloaders are inertia driven and I would have to stumble into a very, very good deal to buy another gas gun. IMO, inertia is the way to go.


Ah, I see. I prefer the dual trigger because I can choose which barrel to shoot but it does complicate things when you're used to a certain manual of arms. I don't mind inertia driven guns and have had the chance to shoot plenty, but they transmit a lot more recoil than a gas gun. So much so that my hunting partner was willing to sell it to me for cheap because he was getting beat up every season.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

hardline_42 said:


> Ah, I see. I prefer the dual trigger because I can choose which barrel to shoot but it does complicate things when you're used to a certain manual of arms. I don't mind inertia driven guns and have had the chance to shoot plenty, but they transmit a lot more recoil than a gas gun. So much so that my hunting partner was willing to sell it to me for cheap because he was getting beat up every season.


I hope you told him to get that thing fitted better or hit the weight room. I shoot 3.5's the majority of the year and have never had a well-fitted inertia gun leave me sore - my Super Vinci is the lightest shooting 12ga auto I've ever shot and it is surely because it came with so many shims that I could get a perfect fit right in my living room. Fit and then gun weight are the two biggest factors at play in felt recoil, but you already knew that. Which leads me to why I was considering the Benelli Montefeltro - you can buy them in a set with the youth/ladies stock and the regular stock for well within my budget from somewhere like GunsAmerica.com and since I'll never shoot the youth stock, I can take her to get it fitted if she actually wants to shoot it. As you can tell, this is also equal parts me wanting her to shoot and me wanting a new toy.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

MikeF said:


> You shouldn't have over a 26" inch barrel except maybe out west in open prairie but even then I have had no problem with a short barrel.


For upland game, there's never much reason to have over 24-26" bbl, but I wouldn't want my duck gun under 28" and geese are great with a 30". With modern shotgun loads, you won't lose much power with a 26 vs a 28, maybe 10% at 40 yards, but the difference is in the swing. Not nearly as much swing is required for pheasants at 20 yards as is required for geese in a field. A longer barrel practically forces you to follow through.

But, for my purposes, I want 24-26". This won't be a duck gun.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I sold my o/u to Clark Brothers out in Warrenton when we bought our sailboat. 

Prior to that I just shot occasionally at Bull Run also.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I sold my o/u to Clark Brothers out in Warrenton when we bought our sailboat.
> 
> Prior to that I just shot occasionally at Bull Run also.


Oh man, every time we go back down to Charlottesville I always want to stop there but we always seem to be driving at night so they're closed. Conspiracy, I tell you what.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tilton said:


> I hope you told him to get that thing fitted better or hit the weight room. I shoot 3.5's the majority of the year and have never had a well-fitted inertia gun leave me sore - my Super Vinci is the lightest shooting 12ga auto I've ever shot and it is surely because it came with so many shims that I could get a perfect fit right in my living room. Fit and then gun weight are the two biggest factors at play in felt recoil, but you already knew that. Which leads me to why I was considering the Benelli Montefeltro - you can buy them in a set with the youth/ladies stock and the regular stock for well within my budget from somewhere like GunsAmerica.com and since I'll never shoot the youth stock, I can take her to get it fitted if she actually wants to shoot it. As you can tell, this is also equal parts me wanting her to shoot and me wanting a new toy.


He had it professionally fitted. He's a guide, has his own duck pond on his land with permanent blinds and easily hunts 5 days a week during the season. I probably wouldn't notice excessive recoil even with a poorly fitted inertia gun, but with the sheer number of cases of shells he goes through in a season, I can understand having a strong preference.

The Benelli sounds like a good choice with the multiple stocks. Be careful she doesn't claim it for herself, "forcing" you to buy another one!


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

Tilton said:


> Yeah, bird hunting is a pricey endeavor unless you go on guided hunts: you've got to lease land with birds on it or put them there yourself, you've got to get a dog to find em, etc. I'd look at hunting preserves in MD or DE. They will have better upland birds and will be about the same distance away as Culpepper and they're really not expensive unless you want to go every weekend. If it is duck you're interested in, I know a local duck and goose guide very well and his rates are good. I think he can supply a gun and waders. If you want to go, I'm game any time.
> 
> On a side note: do you fly fish in/around DC much? I'm a shad fanatic and those striper are pretty fun too.


Thanks, I'll keep DE and MD in mind. I do some fly fishing in DC, usually shad at Fletcher's (an easy bus ride for me from Dupont). But I'm really more into trout fishing, which I generally do back home in NY. Am planning on finally going to the Shenandoahs this year though. The season apparently ends pretty early out there.

I'd actually be down to meet up and go duck hunting this year--after the holidays would be best. What is the season like? Which reminds me--gotta dig up my hunting license/hunter safety certificate when I'm back home this weekend!


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Hayek said:


> Thanks, I'll keep DE and MD in mind. I do some fly fishing in DC, usually shad at Fletcher's (an easy bus ride for me from Dupont). But I'm really more into trout fishing, which I generally do back home in NY. Am planning on finally going to the Shenandoahs this year though. The season apparently ends pretty early out there.
> 
> I'd actually be down to meet up and go duck hunting this year--after the holidays would be best. What is the season like? Which reminds me--gotta dig up my hunting license/hunter safety certificate when I'm back home this weekend!


You really shouldn't miss out on the trout in your own back yard: the North Branch of the Potomac. It is a wonderful trout fishery - as is the Gunpowder River in Maryland and, a bit further away, the Rappahannock and Jackson Rivers in Virginia.

After the holidays, the season is COLD. Plenty of birds, but it is cold. Mostly shooting canvasbacks over massive spreads, breaking ice in the boat, etc.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Tilton said:


> Oh man, every time we go back down to Charlottesville I always want to stop there but we always seem to be driving at night so they're closed. Conspiracy, I tell you what.


The only thing that comes close is Green Top North of Richmond but they don't have the outdoor shooting range!!


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I can certainly see shorter barrels in the East. Out here our upland bird hunting, except for some grouse in the Sierra, is mostly very open ground and the birds get up aways out. That makes 28" barrels far more desirable. I used to have a 26" Browning sxs that I used with some success over a pointer on pheasant but found that for dove and desert quail my longer barreled Citori Featherweight was better.

Given a choice, I'd opt for double triggers but the American penchant for pumps and semiautos has fixed the makers with the idea that single triggers are a must for marketing. That's why I have come to favor vintage Europeans and British. Of course, for price I could end up paying I could easily get an American gun converted! :icon_smile_big:

I've always admired the lines of the A5 and even owned one once. Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside! So I sold it to a buddy and went back to more rounded shaped guns. From the pheasants' standpoint that was an unfortunate decision. :wink2:


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## MikeF (Feb 26, 2010)

Tilton said:


> I hope you told him to get that thing fitted better or hit the weight room. I shoot 3.5's the majority of the year and have never had a well-fitted inertia gun leave me sore - my Super Vinci is the lightest shooting 12ga auto I've ever shot and it is surely because it came with so many shims that I could get a perfect fit right in my living room. Fit and then gun weight are the two biggest factors at play in felt recoil, but you already knew that. Which leads me to why I was considering the Benelli Montefeltro - you can buy them in a set with the youth/ladies stock and the regular stock for well within my budget from somewhere like GunsAmerica.com and since I'll never shoot the youth stock, I can take her to get it fitted if she actually wants to shoot it. As you can tell, this is also equal parts me wanting her to shoot and me wanting a new toy.


Another thing that I have learned from experience is that if any shotgun beats you up, you most likely aren't shouldering it right. I've had bad days shooting when my shoulder has taken a beating and it always comes back to improper mounting. Also a recoil operated gun like the Browning A5 is generally more reliable than a gas gun.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> I can certainly see shorter barrels in the East. Out here our upland bird hunting, except for some grouse in the Sierra, is mostly very open ground and the birds get up aways out. That makes 28" barrels far more desirable. I used to have a 26" Browning sxs that I used with some success over a pointer on pheasant but found that for dove and desert quail my longer barreled Citori Featherweight was better.


Not sure I quite follow this as a you're talking 28's on a double and I'm talking 28's on an autoloader. 28's generally leave the LOA about .5"-1" shorter than a 24 on an auto. I wouldn't go shorter than 28's on a double for that reason. Like I said, you're not losing any real ability to reach out and touch anything, you lose swingability because you end up with a much lighter gun with the weight center-back compared to a more barrel-heavy gun. The barrel-heavy gun will always swing steadier.



MikeF said:


> Also a recoil operated gun like the Browning A5 is generally more reliable than a gas gun.




This is at least half the reason I only own recoil guns now (especially considering the muck and mud I hunt). The other half is that they are much, much cleaner and lower maintenance.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Ah! Sorry, my default thinking is a double gun and I only think autos when I'm thinking waterfowl. It's those 3" mags, yanno. 

While I agree that for generations the recoil guns were more reliable than the gas version, the new gas guns are amazingly resilient and slough off mud and muck quite well. However, I am predominantly an upland bird hunter when it comes to shotgunning. Waterfowling out west is a rich man's sport until you get up into the PNW. There simply isn't enough available water out here for much in the way of free duck hunting. It's all locked up in private duck clubs and those are pa-rice-EE!

I had hoped to get up for a guided snow goose hunt this year but time and such is pushing it into next season . . . darn it!


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

Tilton, I shoot an over-under, but I would say that you might want to take a look at the Franchi Affinity, if you like Franchis and are looking for a light autoloader. I recently shot with a guy who was using a Winchester SX3, and it also is a very nice gun. You may want to go with a 20 gauge this time around. I mostly shoot trap and some occasional sporting clays - I've only hunted twice (pheasant at a preserve w/ guide and dogs). If I were going to buy a new gun for bird hunting, I probably would look at a 20 gauge semi-auto.

Since this is a clothing forum, I want to add my 2 cents on outdoor/shooting clothing. I find the Beretta stuff, though expensive, to be of great quality. I recently purchased a wind barrier full-zip sweater, and it is amazing. I have several Barbours and, if it gets really cold, I'll just throw a Beaufort on over the wind barrier sweater or Beretta windstopper fleece. 

In terms of shooting/hunting/outdoor footwear, I currently wear LaCrosse alphaburly sport boots (the zip-front ones), but really like the looks of Le Chameau rubber boots. Can anyone comment on whether the leather-lined ones are worth the money?


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Ron_A said:


> In terms of shooting/hunting/outdoor footwear, I currently wear LaCrosse alphaburly sport boots (the zip-front ones), but really like the looks of Le Chameau rubber boots. Can anyone comment on whether the leather-lined ones are worth the money?


I have a pair of the LaCrosse Apha wellies and my wife has the Le Chameaus. While the design and materials of the French wellies are nicer, I don't know that I would get the leather-lined version for the type of conditions in which I would need a tall rubber boot. According to my wife, the leather-lined boots are not very warm and I think they're a bit too precious, not to mention, expensive. My next pair will probably be the Aigle Parcours ISO Open, which is a neoprene-lined, full-zip version for warmth, but has the more shapely French design for comfort while walking. Some other choices would be Le Chameau's Chasseurnord and Vierzonord or any of Hunter's neo-lined boots. If I need a more breathable tall boot for warmer weather, I'd wear the 16" Bean MHS.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Ron, this thread actually came out of a discussion of sweaters for hunting. I like the Beretta clothing and it isn't usually terribly overpriced. My uncle has a pair of the Beretta upland pants and for $129 they are easily as good as the Orvis pants I have which retail for the same price. I've been eyeing that Beretta sweater at Orvis, as well, but I think I'm going to pull the trigger on an Austrian military sweater first. 

Sarge, when I was last shopping, I was deciding between a Browning Maxus 3.5" (gas) and Benelli Super Vinci 3.5" (recoil). I had the chance to shoot both and the Vinci blew the Maxus out of the water. While the Maxus claims to be the fastest shooting gas autoloader (and the Vinci does not make the same claim for recoil guns), it was pretty clear that the Vinci cycled notably faster than the Maxus. After 100 or so rounds on each, the Browning was WAY dirtier than the Vinci, and I'd been shooting the same shells through each. While the Maxus wasn't nearly as dirty as my old, old, old J.C. Higgins Model 60, or my slightly newer 1100 would have been, it was considerably more dirty than the Vinci. That was a big factor to me, because I don't enjoy doing the maintenance like some others may. 

On a side note, my Model 60 had an adjustable choke - anyone else ever seen one of those suckers? It was pretty darn cool. The gun was also $80 and, if cleaned after ever 100 or so rounds, would never have a problem. A great value for someone on a serious budget.

On the topic of wellies, I wear Bogs, which are almost identical to my old Mucks, but I got them with, I think, 1000g of insulation this go-round. I have some friends who guided for salmon, ptarmigan, and sharptail in Alaska and they all swear by the brand XTRAtuff. Apparently it is a big deal in Alaska and folks have been wearing them there forever. I don't think I've ever seen them for sale near me, though.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tilton said:


> I have some friends who guided for salmon, ptarmigan, and sharptail in Alaska and they all swear by the brand XTRAtuff. Apparently it is a big deal in Alaska and folks have been wearing them there forever. I don't think I've ever seen them for sale near me, though.


It's funny you mention Xtratufs because Alaskan fisherman have been having their own "trad people problems" with this brand. Originally made in USA, Xtratuf recently moved their production to China and have received an onslaught of criticism from entire communities that literally wear their Xtratufs everywhere as a result of drastically reduced quality:
https://www.alaskadispatch.com/arti...ark-durability-after-manufacturing-move-china

Personally, I'm a fan of the stereotypical white shrimp boot from Servus. Cheap, durable and made in the USA. It's the only white shoes I wear after Labor Day :tongue2:


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

hardline_42 said:


> It's funny you mention Xtratufs because Alaskan fisherman have been having their own "trad people problems" with this brand. Originally made in USA, Xtratuf recently moved their production to China and have received an onslaught of criticism from entire communities that literally wear their Xtratufs everywhere as a result of drastically reduced quality:
> https://www.alaskadispatch.com/arti...ark-durability-after-manufacturing-move-china
> 
> Personally, I'm a fan of the stereotypical white shrimp boot from Servus. Cheap, durable and made in the USA. It's the only white shoes I wear after Labor Day :tongue2:


I had no idea, actually. I just remember one of them telling me that in Alaska you only need two pairs of shoes: one pair of XTRATUFs and another pair of XTRATUFs.

Are those Servus boots made out of the Crocs-esque foam? We used to keep some of those kind on our CC fishing boat and it was amazing how light they were for "rubber" boots. I think ours were made by Marlin. They also had a white, Crocs-esque sole that was good to the decks. There was a small style movement among the albie/striper/bull red fly fishermen in NC/SC to wear them when not on the boat with their jeans or khakis tucked into the tops a few years back.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tilton said:


> I had no idea, actually. I just remember one of them telling me that in Alaska you only need two pairs of shoes: one pair of XTRATUFs and another pair of XTRATUFs.
> 
> Are those Servus boots made out of the Crocs-esque foam? We used to keep some of those kind on our CC fishing boat and it was amazing how light they were for "rubber" boots. I think ours were made by Marlin. They also had a white, Crocs-esque sole that was good to the decks. There was a small style movement among the albie/striper/bull red fly fishermen in NC/SC to wear them when not on the boat with their jeans or khakis tucked into the tops a few years back.


No, the Servus boots are standard rubber with gum soles. I actually have a pair of the Marlin boots and they're deceptively light, grippy and comfortable, too. They just seem a bit flimsy to me as protective foot wear. I'm always worried I'm going to slam my foot into the corner of the fish cooler or get a hook through the toe (or worse, bitten by a blue).

As for the style factor, they're definitely a cultural icon. I see them a lot here in Jersey. All the mates on charter and party boats wear them and so do most of the passengers. I was surprised to find out they were mainly a southern thing, a kind of Cajun Trad, if you will.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

hardline_42 said:


> They just seem a bit flimsy to me as protective foot wear. I'm always worried I'm going to slam my foot into the corner of the fish cooler or get a hook through the toe (or worse, bitten by a blue).


I guess you don't want to go wading the flats in Tevas with me, chasing bonnethead on the fly.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tilton said:


> I guess you don't want to go wading the flats in Tevas with me, chasing bonnethead on the fly.


Saltwater on the fly is something I'd love to do but isn't in the budget. That gear is seriously pricy! I fly fish wearing old boat shoes so I'm not that concerned (though Tevas are concerning for a whole different reason). It's when I'm on the wet deck of a boat in the middle of winter, in 2-4 foot seas, surrounded by people of dubious skill that I'm most concerned! (And since we're doing black boxes...)


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Contrary to the Orvis website, it doesn't take anything expensive to fly fish the salt. Just a 8-weight outfit with a shooting line. If you're in the surf a stripping basket is very much recommended but that can be made so cheaply that it hardly counts. The important thing is a hat that covers the back of your head (said the man who put a barbless hook through his ear last outing).


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Looks cold.

I'll have to dig out my camera for the good'ns, but I have a couple on my phone from this September:



















Edit: I only fish fly tackle, but I did pick up a spinning rod and reel for the big cats in the Potomac this spring. Should be fun.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Mamma Tilton is not opposed to spin fishing, though. That is to say, at 70, she wears herself out casting a 9wt all day. Trout are still fly-only in this family.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Oldsarge said:


> Contrary to the Orvis website, it doesn't take anything expensive to fly fish the salt. Just a 8-weight outfit with a shooting line. If you're in the surf a stripping basket is very much recommended but that can be made so cheaply that it hardly counts. The important thing is a hat that covers the back of your head (said the man who put a barbless hook through his ear last outing).


Sarge, got any affordable recommendations for a saltwater outfit? I'd be surf fishing for stripers, blues and weakfish, mostly, with some fluke and black bass fishing in the back bays, occasionally.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

and

Now I'm sure you can find Echo and Lamson Konic from a source closer to home. I use Bob's because he's only about 15 minutes down the freeway and they have *EVERYTHING* you could possibly use, let alone need. But it would be silly to buy something from California when you live in the East. However, these are dynamite products for very reasonable prices.


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

hardline_42 said:


> Sarge, got any affordable recommendations for a saltwater outfit? I'd be surf fishing for stripers, blues and weakfish, mostly, with some fluke and black bass fishing in the back bays, occasionally.


Just about any 9ft 8wt or 9wt (I'd lean towards 9wt) from a major manufacturer should be fine. Get some clousers, deceivers, and a few poppers and you're good to go.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Dead right. Ol' Clouser's minnow is the killingest fly ever tied. Works on every damned fish I know of.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

hardline_42 said:


> Sarge, got any affordable recommendations for a saltwater outfit? I'd be surf fishing for stripers, blues and weakfish, mostly, with some fluke and black bass fishing in the back bays, occasionally.


I'd buy a TFO over an Echo. Look at the BVK rods. They are pretty much considered the best saltwater rod for the money over on StripersOnline.com. If your stripers aren't too huge to require a good drag system ($$$$), look at the reel offerings from Okuma. You can palm drag a striper up to about 25lbs with ease.

Also, I would suggest you get a 10wt if you plan to use it in the surf. Fly rods are mostly applicable to your conditions and flies rather than fish. Surf fishing is high wind, big flies, heavy lines. That means a big rod. I use a two-handed rod set up for overhead casting when I hit the surf. You'll find a lot of guys on the NJ coast doing the same. It lets you put more line out with less effort and you'll punch through a really stiff wind like it wasn't there.

Also, get a depth-charge or other sink-tip line for surf fishing.

Your best bet is actually to go register on StripersOnline.com and buy a whole set up from their classified ads. You'll pay around $250-300 for a rod worth at least that, plus you'll get a reel (another 150-300) and a line (another 75-100). Just my $0.02.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Hey thanks for the tips, fellas! This thread delivers.
Tilton, with regard to drag, I'm not too worried about stripers. They just about jump themselves right into the boat when you hook them. It's those big, fightin' blues that can tax your equipment. Looking into a complete used setup is good advice, I think.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

It is good advice. If you get a used rod, I would avoid Sage, Winston, Scott, and Loomis as their warranties will not transfer to you like Orvis, LLB, or TFO will.

Speaking of Orvis, how could I forget?! They have a rod called the Clearwater III. I had a Clearwater II and it was not so great. When it finally gave out and they gave me a Clearwater III as a replacement, I was blown away. It is the exact same rod as my old Orvis Zero Gravity (which was top of the line about 6 years ago). Stellar performance for under $250 MSRP. Get one of those $25 off $50 coupons and take $25 off the rod, use the other to get $25 off the reel and line and you're good to go for around $300. Anything lower in the Orvis line (encounter, streamline) won't come with the full warranty (and you want the full warranty), so you've been warned. 

You'll be surprised at the fish you don't even need to get on reel. I find I don't get on reel on reds until they're 3-5" above the slot, striper to 12lbs, and jacks up to around 4lbs.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Anyone care to share some recent ties?

I'll go first.














































If you can't tell, I was hoping for some muskie this fall, but I haven't even made it out there yet. Maybe January holds some big tigers for me. They'll all also work for salt-run stripers. Most of these are articulated.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Anyone do any good afield over the holiday? I went after whitetail for three consecutive days and only had one chance on an 8-pointer but he was on a mission somewhere and wouldn't slow his jog down for nothing to let me get a shot. I went after sikas yesterday and never saw one, though I should have brought my shotgun because the puddle ducks were filled in thick in the Eastern Shore swamps. I've been hunting deer 100% from the ground this year and it sure makes things tougher. I may resort to putting bringing out the climber stand if I don't have something in the freezer before Christmas.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Surprisingly terrible hunting for me as well, both whitetail and fox. My father did manage to shoot a pair of quail our bulldog and jack russell flushed while out on a walk.



Tilton said:


> Anyone do any good afield over the holiday? I went after whitetail for three consecutive days and only had one chance on an 8-pointer but he was on a mission somewhere and wouldn't slow his jog down for nothing to let me get a shot. I went after sikas yesterday and never saw one, though I should have brought my shotgun because the puddle ducks were filled in thick in the Eastern Shore swamps. I've been hunting deer 100% from the ground this year and it sure makes things tougher. I may resort to putting bringing out the climber stand if I don't have something in the freezer before Christmas.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Reuben said:


> Surprisingly terrible hunting for me as well, both whitetail and fox. My father did manage to shoot a pair of quail our bulldog and jack russell flushed while out on a walk.


Do you hunt fox on horseback? They run foxhunts on my deer hunting lease in NoVA and they never kill 'em, which I was somewhat surprised at. One of these days I'll see the fox and give it a good wallop with the .308 just to show those unarmed fools who's boss out there.

Shooting birds over a bulldog is pretty hilarious. On the note of upland birds, Mamma Tilton cooked a Thanksgiving dinner of pheasants and partridges that I shot a few weeks back in western Indiana and eastern Illinois. Delicious.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

One of the greatest joys of bird hunting is working with a pointer and a JRT as a flusher. They're underrated as bird dogs but a lot of fun when combined with a pointer.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

My next gun dog will be, hard as this may to credit, a poodle.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Oldsarge said:


> My next gun dog will be, hard as this may to credit, a poodle.


Very smart decision to select a very smart dog. For a personal or family guard dog, a poodle would be my first choice, followed by an Akita. No reason you could not train a poodle for the field. I'd ask a vet about its hearing, though.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I've hunted over a poodle once for duck. It was good, but I think the coat would be an issue for a lot of places I hunt, but, for SoCal, I think it'd be a good choice and they sure are smart.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Yeah, waterfowling around here is a rich man's sport because of the lack of open water. So the poodle will be mostly a pheasant and (in good rain years) quail dog unless we do decide to relocate, at least partially, to Portland, OR. I suspect that in that mild climate a poodle would make a fine duck dog.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> Yeah, waterfowling around here is a rich man's sport because of the lack of open water. So the poodle will be mostly a pheasant and (in good rain years) quail dog unless we do decide to relocate, at least partially, to Portland, OR. I suspect that in that mild climate a poodle would make a fine duck dog.


I'd think so. Hunting here on the Chesapeake Bay and it's tributaries, a dog without a double coat will not last very long, but I have some friends who hunt Boykins down in SC and those don't have the double coat either and do just great.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Tilton said:


> One of these days I'll see the fox and give it a good wallop with the .308 just to show those unarmed fools who's boss out there.
> .


Not my scene at all, but isn't that regarded as very bad form?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Odradek said:


> Not my scene at all, but isn't that regarded as very bad form?


Yes, of course. But, then again, isn't running your hunting group through someone else's hunting land with no warning similarly very bad form? The fence exists for a reason and that reason is not to test your horse's jumping ability and those Posted Private Property signs aren't merely a suggestion.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Odradek said:


> Not my scene at all, but isn't that regarded as very bad form?


Maybe to the horsemen but if Tilton's the landowner or has the landowner's permission and shooting fox is legal in the state he shoots, too bad for them. Shooters far outnumber, outvote and out lobby the hunting contingent, them being considered not really American anyway. :icon_smile_big:


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

If you're running hounds through land without permission, you should just be thankful you're not getting shot yourself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Takai (Jun 2, 2013)

I came from deer hunting stock, up in southern Indiana where it was always quite a challenge, but living down here in middle Tennessee I have discovered that deer hunting is much easier with an f150 than a .308.

On a more related note though, last summer myself, my uncle and my father went to a resort down in northern Alabama and went on my first quail hunt, we had not planned for the hunt so the only bird gun we had packed was a fausti o/u 12, the resort owner did have a couple of his that he let us use, a wonderful magnaported citori deluxe, and an older not quite as nice citori o/u. Needless to say, this was fantastically enjoyable, and we wound up with more quail than we knew what to do with, and decided that we will be going back for the pheasant hunt they offer. This time better prepared.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Reuben said:


> If you're running hounds through land without permission, you should just be thankful you're not getting shot yourself.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They have permission every day but Saturday, the only day I hunt. But they apparently just ignore the Saturday exception because that's pretty much the only day _they _hunt.

Takai, deer hunting in Indiana is always interesting to me (same with other states that are shotgun-only). On the one hand, a shotgun travels far less of a distance if you miss, but on the other hand, your best shots will be long-range where the shotgun is useless. Here in VA (and in TN) you can hunt rifle, but it doesn't do much good because your shots are rarely more than 40yds. More western states allow the long-range deer hunting, but I'm sure population plays a huge role in who does and does not allow it. I've always wanted to get in a field with decoys and my bow and get a big buck to come all the way out to the middle and get within range. Talk about an adrenaline rush!

Quail hunting is a blast, although I will admit I enjoy pheasant/partridge and waterfowl a bit more for whatever reason, but it isn't as fast-paced and high-action comparatively speaking. Maybe I like the big birds because I too am slow and lazy. Being in TN, you should trek over to Arkansas for some waterfowl, too.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Oh, and for hunting dogs I've found English Cockers are hard to beat. Through a very fortunate turn of events, we ended up adopting a wonderful cocker bred by a French viscount and originally intended for Jimmy Buffett.

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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Tilton said:


> Yes, of course. But, then again, isn't running your hunting group through someone else's hunting land with no warning similarly very bad form? The fence exists for a reason and that reason is not to test your horse's jumping ability and those Posted Private Property signs aren't merely a suggestion.


Aha. Okay.
I hadn't been paying attention and reading as closely as I should. Was trying to make dinner for the kids at the same time.
Thought you were with the hunt. If they're crossing your land without permission, I guess the gloves are off.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I hadn't really explained it well, to be fair. But yes, as soon as I see them scare a deer I potentially had a shot at, I'm knocking the fox down when/if I see it.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

At which point the discussion between the irate equestrians and the armed deer hunter will get pointed. :devil:


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## roman totale XVII (Sep 18, 2009)

Very much enjoying this thread. I recognize most of the words, but none of it makes any sense :smile: So in the spirit of things, here are the rules to cricket, surely the traddest** of sports;

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out.
When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

** Been around for a long time, but no-one can really agree on exactly when or how it started. Involves increasingly hard to find and somewhat archaic clothing. Impenetrable 'rules' from the outside perspective. Anglo origin, but picked up on by the former penal colonies. Vestiges of class snobbery. Latterly obsessed about and refined by Asians.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> At which point the discussion between the irate equestrians and the armed deer hunter will get pointed. :devil:


You're assuming they'd be able to see me. What I envision is them busting through right under me, scaring a monster buck out of the tree cut, and them racing away without ever knowing I was there. An hour or so later, I hear the horns from way off and pick up the fox in my scope, max zoom, of course. I hit it with the range finder: 400yds. Pick up the rifle and knock him down, gunshot echoing through the valley off every hillside making figuring out which direction it came from next to impossible.

Any yes, been fantasizing about this since they first blew through there during my first scouting trip in there.


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

I use the below pictured 28b for quail. Using a 12b on quail is a waste. Even at 35yds, the pattern is pretty tight and if you hit the bird hard, there will be nothing left.

A 20b is a great all around gun. I have a 20b that weighs albs 9ozs and is a bit short for big open fields with flushers (especially mine - pictured below who likes to range a bit), but in the woods on partridge or over a good pointer in the field, I wouldn't trade it for the world. As someone pointed out earlier, the modern ammos reduce the need of having the perfect choke. I used to shoot an A-5 and Superposed, both in 12b, but the O/U is too heavy to carry all day and I don't like autos for upland hunting and don't hunt waterfowl anymore.

Nice topic!
















[/URL]


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Update on our quail-hunting jack russell: she flushed another covey of quail a couple days back and actually caught one mid-flight. She brought it back to my dad and set it his feet, then flipped out when it flew away before she could re-catch it.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Beautiful dog, ASF. 

I like the idea of a 28, but the ammo is pricier and I've never really had the chance to use one beyond just a few shots here and there. Are they really more like a .410, skill-wise?

I've been looking at a lot of vintage doubles lately, sxs and o/u, but I'm scared of buying one because most of the places I hunt are going to non-toxic only and I'd be worried about soldered barrels. Anyone have any input there? I'd hate to fall in love with a gun, buy it, and then not be able to use it due to all the no-lead policies.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

The only non-toxic shot that causes trouble in old barrels is steel or sintered iron. Use Hevi-shot and you'll have no problem. It's just as soft as lead, even heavier and abundant. All the online sporting goods stores carry it .


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

Tilton said:


> Beautiful dog, ASF.
> 
> I like the idea of a 28, but the ammo is pricier and I've never really had the chance to use one beyond just a few shots here and there. Are they really more like a .410, skill-wise?
> 
> I've been looking at a lot of vintage doubles lately, sxs and o/u, but I'm scared of buying one because most of the places I hunt are going to non-toxic only and I'd be worried about soldered barrels. Anyone have any input there? I'd hate to fall in love with a gun, buy it, and then not be able to use it due to all the no-lead policies.


The only non-toxic shot I've used is made with bismuth and it's outrageously expensive - perhaps as much as $2.00-2.20 per shell. When taking about vintage doubles, what do you call vintage and what is your budget? A reputable smith should be able to tell you if a gun can stand up to the new loads. There are plenty of modern doubles with vintage looks that will do the trick. My 20b with a splinter forearm and english stock was made in the mid to late 80's and looks like it's 40+yo.

Yes, 28b ammo is pricier, but carrying a 28 in the grouse woods, through southern pines or scrub cannot be beaten. I'm not sure what you like to hunt, but at most clubs, a 20 is a great all around gun.

asf


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm talking vintage as in 1960 or earlier. My budget is around $1500, but I have up to $2100 to play with for just the right gun but less is preferable as most of my hunting is done with a 3.5" 12ga autoloader. 

I have a few 12ga guns, so I'm really looking at 20's. Shooting steel is not a must, as I suppose I can shoot Hevi-Metal which isn't as pricey (or as impossible to find) as bismuth. That said, not only does the price of bismuth turn me off, but the local availability of it is zilch. I've been looking at Citoris and another Benelli (Montefeltro) as well as the Ruger Red label. My preference is for a pistol-grip or a prince of wales rather than a full English stock.


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

Tilton said:


> I'm talking vintage as in 1960 or earlier. My budget is around $1500, but I have up to $2100 to play with for just the right gun but less is preferable as most of my hunting is done with a 3.5" 12ga autoloader.
> 
> I have a few 12ga guns, so I'm really looking at 20's. Shooting steel is not a must, as I suppose I can shoot Hevi-Metal which isn't as pricey (or as impossible to find) as bismuth. That said, not only does the price of bismuth turn me off, but the local availability of it is zilch. I've been looking at Citoris and another Benelli (Montefeltro) as well as the Ruger Red label. My preference is for a pistol-grip or a prince of wales rather than a full English stock.


I know Baretta has some nice O/U's that are reasonably priced. I think at your price range, you maybe able to find an old field grade Parker, a 20b Model 12 will be out of your range. If you are not familar with https://www.doublegun.com, check it out.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I don't think there are any Berettas in my price range, and I'm definitely not interested in buying something because of the name/history. I want a work horse that I can take into the field, not worry too much about, and that my short (5'1") SO will be able to handle a few times a year on the SC course. That said, 20g is my preference just for variety in the stable, and super light will scare the lady from ever going again while a full-on trap gun will be too heavy for me to want to carry in the field.


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## MikeF (Feb 26, 2010)

Tilton, look on the Cabela's website: https://www.cabelas.com/category/American-Shotguns/103581180.uts, it looks like they may have some good reasonably priced field guns there.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I had looked on there a month or so ago and I wasn't sure what was a good deal or not - I figured most were poorly priced because the wanted $1,299 for a Montefeltro that Cabelas sells new for $1,099. Any resource to look up used gun values online?


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Tilton said:


> I had looked on there a month or so ago and I wasn't sure what was a good deal or not - I figured most were poorly priced because the wanted $1,299 for a Montefeltro that Cabelas sells new for $1,099. Any resource to look up used gun values online?


Armslist
Auction Arms
Gunbroker


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

godan said:


> Armslist
> Auction Arms
> Gunbroker


I look at Gunbroker and GunsAmerica.com pretty often, but I'm baffled that so many of the "auctions" are just seeking a BIN price that is within 95% of retail value. Armslist is a new one I found over the weekend and seems to have some great deals. I'm checking out a Citori this weekend I found on there, it is a great deal but it is also the SC-edition, and I imagine it will be too big and heavy for my needs (32" barrels!).


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Anyone done anything good lately? 

I put a doe in the freezer yesterday, but nothing special. Just before sunrise, 80 yard shot. I was so startled when I heard her snort, I spilled my coffee. I was expecting a much longer, harder day, but I ended up taking her using the tailgate as a shooting rest. I was halfway disappointed at how easy it was, but then again - here it is Christmas week and I have plenty of tags to fill. 

On the shotgun front, I think I'm going to find a youth stock or cut down a spare stock for one of my 12's (which ever stock I find first/cheapest) and see how she likes it. Far cheaper alternative, she probably won't know the difference her first time out, and then I'll know if she is interested or if I can just buy something to purely satisfy my own desires. I think she's coming goose hunting on MLK day, should be interesting.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Make sure she understands that goose hunting is about as 'green' a hunt as exists. Blasted geese! The whites are so overpopulated that they're eating the tundra and the Canada's have made themselves a complete nuisance by moving into the suburbs. Eat more geese!


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## Takai (Jun 2, 2013)

Only real sporting I've done lately was break out the ol' press and whip up some nice custom loads for a friend who's going deer hunting for his first time. Also my father had been telling me he was looking for a new pistol for me for christmas, but couldnt find the right one. Well the other day I stopped by after some errands only to catch him unloading a beautiful Vintage Browning Auto 5 12ga Magnum out of the back of his car. I cannot wait to put her to use once the weather down here stops being so topsy turvy.

Edit: He said they also had a really nice vintage Sweet 16 that he wanted to get me, but they werent putting it out for a few days, and they wanted a bit too much for her.


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

Ah, the sporting life. It's been a bit slow around here for me.

Haven't made it to the wood lot to get after the deer yet. After Christmas I'll be in the woods with my muzzleloader everyday until the year ends. I was in Maine grouse and deer hunting last month. On my way north my buddy shot an 11pt, 205lb buck while bow hunting,.....in my treestand. 









I did have a pretty good season grouse hunting.

















Enjoyed traveling around to do some field trialling, and hunt tests, too.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Looks like doggie had a good time, too.:cool2:


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

My deer arrives tomorrow. I love venison, but hate getting up early, hate getting cold, hate just sitting around waiting for Bambi when I could be sitting by a nice warm fire sipping single malt. So I have a friend do it for me. He never fails.

I always choose a young doe. I'm not sure whether they taste better than bucks or old does, but, as a motorcyclist, I want to keep the population down, and killing does is the best way to do it, I figure, plus my freezer is only so big. The one I'm getting tomorrow is, I'm told, a bit bigger than my usual yearling but not huge. Besides processing--around $100--I'm buying lunch for my friend. Not a bad bargain, I think.



Tilton said:


> Anyone done anything good lately?
> 
> I put a doe in the freezer yesterday, but nothing special. Just before sunrise, 80 yard shot. I was so startled when I heard her snort, I spilled my coffee. I was expecting a much longer, harder day, but I ended up taking her using the tailgate as a shooting rest. I was halfway disappointed at how easy it was, but then again - here it is Christmas week and I have plenty of tags to fill.
> 
> On the shotgun front, I think I'm going to find a youth stock or cut down a spare stock for one of my 12's (which ever stock I find first/cheapest) and see how she likes it. Far cheaper alternative, she probably won't know the difference her first time out, and then I'll know if she is interested or if I can just buy something to purely satisfy my own desires. I think she's coming goose hunting on MLK day, should be interesting.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

32rollandrock said:


> My deer arrives tomorrow. I love venison, but hate getting up early, hate getting cold, hate just sitting around waiting for Bambi when I could be sitting by a nice warm fire sipping single malt. So I have a friend do it for me. He never fails.
> 
> I always choose a young doe. I'm not sure whether they taste better than bucks or old does, but, as a motorcyclist, I want to keep the population down, and killing does is the best way to do it, I figure, plus my freezer is only so big. The one I'm getting tomorrow is, I'm told, a bit bigger than my usual yearling but not huge. Besides processing--around $100--I'm buying lunch for my friend. Not a bad bargain, I think.


$120 for what will probably come out to around 48lbs of meat makes it half the price of on-sale organic beef. Pretty good deal.

Where I'm hunting this year, there is a dearth of hunters (apparently; though I hear shooting all morning) and far too many deer. The bag limit is unlimited on antlerless +3 antlered.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

We should all have such a problem!


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Yes, it's an excellent and delicious bargain.

If I had my way, there'd be no tags or charge for hunting deer. Take as many as you want for free. Having nearly lost my life more than once to deer vs. motorcycle, I consider them downright dangerous--rats with hooves, but better tasting. Good luck in your hunting ventures.



Tilton said:


> $120 for what will probably come out to around 48lbs of meat makes it half the price of on-sale organic beef. Pretty good deal.
> 
> Where I'm hunting this year, there is a dearth of hunters (apparently; though I hear shooting all morning) and far too many deer. The bag limit is unlimited on antlerless +3 antlered.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> We should all have such a problem!


When I was growing up, we always had a kill permit for them on my parents' land because of the crop and property destruction they caused. So, never having to really work the season and prepare and whatnot, I'm just starting to figure it out after actually "hunting" for a few years rather than killing. Many deer were taken from the front porch. However, I always wanted to get one with the .22-250 while sitting on the john and shooting from the windowsill but it never happened. Or, maybe, hasn't happened yet.

Long story short, I'm a lot better at butchering them than I am at truly hunting them.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Then perhaps I should come for a visit. I'm only mediocre at butchering but I cook up a storm!


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Just got back to the homeplace for Christmas. Momma Til informed me she has scheduled a conservation officer to come out on Friday to assess for a new kill permit. Between that and my lease this year having open antlerless firearm season until March 29, it should be plenty of time to fill the freezer (and maybe necessitate buying a deep freeze again).


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

And possibly a sausage stuffer? Ah luv saw-sages!


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> Ah luv saw-sages!


Probably the single best sentence on this site in weeks.

Reminds me, I had a buddy with the most ******* sausage stuffer I've ever seen. Dewalt power drill connected to a hand-crank meat grinder and PVC fittings necking down the output to a casing size. I'm going to look for a picture of it.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I'm not much on venison sausage--I prefer just cooking with it--but there's a place in Bowling Green, Missouri that makes the best deer sausage sticks on the planet--not pepperoni sticks because not that spicy, but the same shape. I don't know the name of the place, but a friend gave me a bag awhile back and they were all gone in an afternoon, and I didn't share. If I bagged a deer and was within 100 miles of that place, that's where I'd take it, presuming I already had sufficient venison for other purposes.


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## mualphapiper (Dec 13, 2009)

Tilton said:


> However, I always wanted to get one with the .22-250 while sitting on the john and shooting from the windowsill but it never happened.


Do you always bring a hunting rifle when you go to the can?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

mualphapiper said:


> Do you always bring a hunting rifle when you go to the can?


I have once or twice when I knew they were moving around in the field below. The bowl is next to the window, and the window looks out on about 20 acres in a field that begins after a 50yd slope that starts 15' off that wall. I'm no marksman with a rifle, so most of the shots, which would be about 250-400yds would be pretty long for my limited skill unless they were close to the base of the hill. If it were my house, I'd be a super-******* and put a gun rack over the toilet.


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## dan46er (Jan 3, 2014)

I live in the country and have heard more than one story of deer taken from inside a house!


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I met a guy once who used to shoot geese out of the window of the manager's cabin he worked out of just before going home to spend the weekend with his wife. 22-250 through the neck makes plucking really easy. Of course it's illegal as hell but . . .


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

We regularly have whitetails transiting our woodlot and coming through the back yard...could have easily taken a dozen or more of the critters, while sitting at our kitchen table and firing through the patio door. However, that's just not sporting and BTW, have any of you ever discharged a firearm inside a room? It's just not something any sane person is apt to repeat (very often:crazy! LOL.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Definitely. At the very least the muzzle should be out the back door.


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## VaBeach (Oct 14, 2013)

eagle2250 said:


> We regularly have whitetails transiting our woodlot and coming through the back yard...could have easily taken a dozen or more of the critters, while sitting at our kitchen table and firing through the patio door. However, that's just not sporting and BTW, have any of you ever discharged a firearm inside a room? It's just not something any sane person is apt to repeat (very often:crazy! LOL.


Not that I have done it, I am told the muzzle out of the kitchen window works very well too.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I had a high school teacher who owned a large subsistence farm about 50mi outside of town. Big man, 6'5-ish, 300ish, large grey beard, and wore suspenders and flannel shirts everyday. He always talked about how his house was wood heat and he slaughtered and butchered his own beef, etc... he was basically what I imagine Paul Bunyan to be at 65 years old. One day he was so excited to tell us he killed a skunk that morning in his tomato patch at over 250yds with a .270 and open sights from his kitchen window.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Well, I think I might have figured out what I want. 

I'm beginning my search for purchase now after handling lots of stack barrels. What I'm angling for is either a Beretta 686 of some sort, a B. Rizzini, or a Caesar Guerini (the latter of which is sort of pie in the sky unless a great deal materializes, especially considering I'd rather not have to have something shipped to me). Next weekend, unless the snow is good and I feel the need to take a 4-day weekend to get half of my annual corduroy carving in (this is the east coast, after all), I'll be checking out a B. Rizzini about an hour out of town. Anyone have any experience with them? They come highly recommended from guys at the clays course and shotgunworld.com

Edit: the Rizzini model is the Aurora - same as was sold under the LL Bean New Englander and Orvis Custom Field Grade several years ago. The model I'm looking at is the sporting model - palm swell, etc.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Can't say as I have. I've seen then at SCI and they look sweet but how they perform in the field, I don't know. I've ordered a 'flat' (half case?) of 2.5" #7 1/2's for my Jeffrey. I expect to be heading out to a pheasant club sometime soon after it arrives. Will report back then.

On another item/idea . . . traditional Casentino cloth comes in orange and runs EUR20/sq. m. from . It seems to me that given the general need for high visibility shooting clothing in N. America that it would be a fine idea to see if Mears Bespoke would tailor a shooting coat or half Norfolk jacket out of that cloth. It would also be a good thing to wear if one were shooting on the Continent where they wear a lot of orange during their driven hunts. I shall explore this and report back. If there is sufficient interest, Mears might just consider making it a standard option for their Continental and N. American customers. Anyone interested?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

You could go the easy route and pick up this: 

My dad picked one up last year - definitely "blaze" orange, and a pretty dang solid knockoff of the Liddesdale, but with the (good) addition of a patch breast pocket.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Damn. For that price, how can one resist? Even if I only use it in Germany the price is peanuts. Thanx.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> Damn. For that price, how can one resist? Even if I only use it in Germany the price is peanuts. Thanx.


You're gonna like it. My pops also got one in navy that is his go-to jacket for the most part. He eyed my Liddesdale for two years but always wants a breast pocket for his glasses.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Yup. After a certain age, that's a necessary item to have.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

And it arrived today. Fits well though a bit snug across the shoulders for shotgunning. However for a stand on a European driven boar or deer hunt, it should be the cat's meow. Price was definitely right! Chaps, keep an eye on ebay.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> And it arrived today. Fits well though a bit snug across the shoulders for shotgunning. However for a stand on a European driven boar or deer hunt, it should be the cat's meow. Price was definitely right! Chaps, keep an eye on ebay.


Well, for the price, you could always get one in a size up, too, if available.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Oldsarge said:


> And it arrived today. Fits well though a bit snug across the shoulders for shotgunning. However for a stand on a European driven boar or deer hunt, it should be the cat's meow. Price was definitely right! Chaps, keep an eye on ebay.


Bought mine today. Hopefully there's enough room in mine for shotgunning, I'm planning on using it for quail hunting this weekend.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I should have mentioned to buy up. I wear a 46-48 and I bought a XXL in the blaze orange down puffer they put out the same year ($20 on clearance last January) because of the way the shoulders are fitted (angled down, fashionably, and not out for movement). I didn't know if the quilted one would fit the same as the down puffer, though.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Tilton said:


> I should have mentioned to buy up. I wear a 46-48 and I bought a XXL in the blaze orange down puffer they put out the same year ($20 on clearance last January) because of the way the shoulders are fitted (angled down, fashionably, and not out for movement). I didn't know if the quilted one would fit the same as the down puffer, though.


Ah. As a pretty hard 46 here, that doesn't bode well. If it doesn't fit well, though, off to the exchange or off with it's arms to make a vest.

Sent from my TI-84 using Tapatalk


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

It was a good day to do a little quail hunting:



The Beretta shooting jacket migt not be as trad as a Barbour, but the padding does help my ruined shoulder.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

As would a Beretta A400. Again, not Trad but good for your aging bod. And everyone's bod is aging, after all.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Oldsarge said:


> As would a Beretta A400. Again, not Trad but good for your aging bod. And everyone's bod is aging, after all.


I'm quite happy with my 686 Pointer. Just about everything makes my shoulder ache.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Have you had it looked at?


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Oldsarge said:


> Have you had it looked at?


Just old wounds. I had reconstruction done six years ago.


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

There are a lot of ways to deal with shoulder/recoil issues, and improve performance at the same time. Have you tried reloading your own light loads? Less payload up front, and less powder in the rear can help. Plus, a lighter payload, with a slower charge will open quicker, which for the relatively closer shots encountered quail hunting, would be an advantage.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Flairball said:


> There are a lot of ways to deal with shoulder/recoil issues, and improve performance at the same time. Have you tried reloading your own light loads? Less payload up front, and less powder in the rear can help. Plus, a lighter payload, with a slower charge will open quicker, which for the relatively closer shots encountered quail hunting, would be an advantage.


If I got to shoot more often, I'd look into it. As it is, though, my lease won't let me keep a gun in the apartment and I can't find a decent clay range near Athens anyway. I'll just dose up on Advil and suck it up for the dozen or so times I get home to shoot.


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## Takai (Jun 2, 2013)

Dad and I have been looking for a place to bird hunt locally, or somewhat locally, and he thinks he's come up with a place. They offer a nice wide variety of birds, all wild, and at a really reasonable price point. Looks like I'll be getting to play with my A5 sooner than I thought.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Takai said:


> Dad and I have been looking for a place to bird hunt locally, or somewhat locally, and he thinks he's come up with a place. They offer a nice wide variety of birds, all wild, and at a really reasonable price point. Looks like I'll be getting to play with my A5 sooner than I thought.


If it is pay-per-bird in any way, I would be very skeptical of the claim that they are wild birds. In TN, dove, woodcock, and snipe are closed for the season and duck/goose only has one more week. Grouse don't have reliably large populations and pheasants are never wild in TN. There's nothing wrong with hunting farm-raised birds and indeed the season on them is much longer than on wild birds. Another hint would be if they allow hunting after Feb. 28. If they do, you're not shooting any wild birds.


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

Takai said:


> Dad and I have been looking for a place to bird hunt locally, or somewhat locally, and he thinks he's come up with a place. They offer a nice wide variety of birds, all wild, and at a really reasonable price point. Looks like I'll be getting to play with my A5 sooner than I thought.





Tilton said:


> If it is pay-per-bird in any way, I would be very skeptical of the claim that they are wild birds. In TN, dove, woodcock, and snipe are closed for the season and duck/goose only has one more week. Grouse don't have reliably large populations and pheasants are never wild in TN. There's nothing wrong with hunting farm-raised birds and indeed the season on them is much longer than on wild birds. Another hint would be if they allow hunting after Feb. 28. If they do, you're not shooting any wild birds.


This is good advice,Takai. Buyer beware.

While the quail population has dwindled, by all accounts, I'd say it would be well worth the time and effort to try to find someplace where you could at least take a couple each year. Appalachian grouse are spread thin, too, but can be found. And where there are grouse, there are ussually woodcock, which is where I'd put the bulk of my effort if I lived in TN. Woodcock migrate, so their numbers are constantly changing with the winds and the weather, but they aren't as fussy about cover. Grouse will leave a cover after it has passed its prime, but woodcock will still stop over in marginal cover. Find some decent cover while the flight is on, and it'll be red-hot barrel fun.

But, what is needed is more involvement in habitat restoration, and the decision making process. Get a membership to the Ruffed Grouse Society, and to Quail Forever. You're small donation will be put to good use, you'll get a nice quarterly magazine where you'll learn about local chapter functions, and you'll meet a lot of like minded sportsmen. In the end, you'll learn a lot, too.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I've never hunted woodcock, Flairball, but I do have this, to compensate:


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

That is a sweet flask. 

If you ever have the opportunity to shoot woodcock, don't pass it up. A good day of shooting Timberdoodles is hard to beat. And when you do shoot one, don't do as so many others have done and over cook it. The breast cooked med-rare rivals the best filet mignon.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Without wanting to distract from this excellent thread may I humbly announce that the forums on these very subjects are now up and running on .  Thank-you.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> Without wanting to distract from this excellent thread may I humbly announce that the forums on these very subjects are now up and running on . Thank-you.


A very cool site. Is this yours?


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Yes it is. Andy helped me set it up and turned me onto his web designer. I think he did a fine job. I hope people enjoy it. I plan two articles a week and hope for lots of discussion.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Well it looks great. I'll visit often!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

What a wonderful initiative. Looking forward to participating! :thumbs-up:

Well done, Oldsarge!


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

I am not a hunter, not do I own a gun, but The Sporting Gentry looks like a great blog for those who share your passions. Bravo!


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

That is a beautiful site. I own many firearms and hunt often, but birds in flight have usually been safe from me. If I spent too much time on your site, I might once again convince myself that another foray into expensive shotguns would make me a better wingshot than fate has intended.


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## MikeF (Feb 26, 2010)

Oldsarge said:


> Without wanting to distract from this excellent thread may I humbly announce that the forums on these very subjects are now up and running on . Thank-you.


Visited your blog, I liked it and have bookmarked it and will be back fairly often. I have one humble suggestion however. Please put a section in the forum for discussing dogs. I grew up with bird dogs and still get a charge out of watching them work.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

My original intent was to discuss dogs in The Gun Room but as devoted as I am to them I would gladly add a room called The Gentry's Kennel. I'll slip the word to my web designer.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)




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## Dapper Chap (Jun 10, 2013)

https://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb214/fogeyunlimited/DSCF9039_zps4e3e2825.jpg


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Dapper Chap said:


> https://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb214/fogeyunlimited/DSCF9039_zps4e3e2825.jpg


Oh now, that's just choice. Ready for a day's hill-walking with two stalwart companions. What a way to spend a spring day.


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

Past Recoil Pads for high power rifles are the best pads for high volume dove shooting. And I mean high volume. Great pads with no bruising if the gun is mounted even casually in the right spot


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I use a Past insert in my shooting jacket. It really helps tame my .450 Rigby . . . at least as much as _anything_ could tame my .450 Rigby besides the adrenaline surge when M'bogo gives you the snake eye!


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## Takai (Jun 2, 2013)

Reviving this thread, because tomorrow I will become the proud owner of a 300 h&h built on a Remington P17 action, with what appears to be all matching metal, save for a very nicely scrolled mag plate. Gotta love those flaming bombs and screaming eagles.


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