# To cravat or not to cravat?



## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Dear Sirs

I have been considering a cravat for some time now. And I would appreciate hearing your views on the subject.

Firstly, does anyone here wear a cravat on a regular basis, or even occasionally? How does it work for you?

My initial concern with a cravat is how it would be generally received and interpreted by the Western world at large. Both in the mainstream world and also in more cultured society? (Not that I am privileged enough to move in the latter circles - but it might be nice to be able to think of myself as an ambassador or such standards, should circumstances permit it!)

Would I receive cautionary looks in the street for wearing a cravat?

Would i receive questionable consideration from professional and academic associates for wearing a cravat?

Would I perhaps be considered eccentric, to an extent which which might perhaps be considered comical, for wearing a cravat?

Would I be assumed to be a Frenchman, for wearing a cravat?

I feel that a personal style initiative of this magnitude warrants careful consideration. I should therefore be most grateful for your advice!


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

You would be called 'posh' and told, one cannot wear a cravat in the Ivy.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

In America, for most people, it would not be a good idea. (I said for MOST not all to those who will come in to flame.) 

In England, I'm not sure.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Or you could be thought very fashionable as the young Shoreditch set are starting to wear them. A throwback to the 50's/60's.

Of course if you are 40+ you will be considered an old fogey.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I'm in my twenties. I'm also already significantly smarter than most of my friends, simply because I'm always found in a shirt collar and jacket of some description. 

I am worried a cravat may tip the balance and turn me into an absurdity. Perhaps I should entertaining dressing with one only on more formal solo occasions?


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Mr. Pipps said:


> I'm in my twenties. I'm also already significantly smarter than most of my friends, simply because I'm always found in a shirt collar and jacket of some description.


Posh, posh, posh :icon_smile:

Wear a silk scarf instead.


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## mvarela (Jul 5, 2006)

I think it is very difficult for a younger man -- say, under 40 -- to pull off a cravat. I think it looks affected. Of course, there are exceptions and if you wear it with supreme confidence and don't seem to take yourself too seriously then it could work quite well.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I don't know about the French thing, but the answer to just about all your other questions is yes. Especially the one about seeming comical.

And it doesn't matter if you call it a cravat or an ascot.

This is a topic that breeds strong feelings around here. Check the archives.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Thank you for the advice, everyone.

I think I may investigate the possibility of a silk scarf, instead.


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## Mariuslt (Oct 19, 2008)

If you have a personality that stands up to it, then go ahead. It's kinda like the bow tie. Consider which signals you'll be sending out. I wouldn't wear it myself, but i love wearing bow ties. I have a brother and a cousin who both wears caravats to more formal social occasions with suits. They look good in it, but then again, caravats fit their personality.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^Indeed, your wisdom seems to exceed your young age Mr Pipps! Good choice.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I really like cravats/ascots. If they are worn discreetly, as they should be, I don't know if too many people notice. I think they lend a note of faux-patrician panache to an otherwise mundance ensemble and make you stand out from the crowd a bit.

In the past five years I have increased my collection of them from one to 14 (bought three of them in the company of our Andy himself) and hope to buy a few more in the near future. 

I would wear them almost all the time I'm not wearing a tie or engaged in vigorous, sweaty outdoor activities were it not for the fact they annoy the hell out of my wife. She is the worst philistine since Delilah!


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

I'm thinking (hoping actually) that a gentleman past sixty five years of age on a cruise ship in the Caribbean could get away with the cravat. Any of you cruisers out there that have seen this on cruise ships?


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

If done right, in a casual setting, such as at home entertaining it can be effective and practical. However, I'd avoid it anywhere business manners are required. I may wear a cravat when traveling and attending conferences, but I wouldn't wear one to meet the CEO of another firm, even if he's my junior.

Thomas


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

I wouldn't wear one myself. I'd be afraid it's on the wrong side of the line between "bold fashion statement" and "camp costume".


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

Perform the following discreet test to gauge its effect:

Put it on with an outfit that compliments it, don some very dark sunglasses, go somewhere where you arent going to run into anyone you know and walk around, shop, have lunch etc. and see what the reaction is, determine the gawk factor and the guffaw quotient and if they are below your threshold of caring you're all set.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

I'm in the camp that thinks they're costume, but would be interested to see supporters post pics of examples they think look good. Other than vintage images of Cary Grant and such.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I've never had anyone gawk or guffaw at me because I was wearing one. 

In fact, on the strength of this thread, I shall order another one tomorrow from Beau Ties Ltd.

I note in my earlier post, I referred to my wife as "the worst philistine since Delilah." On consulting the words of Sacred Scripture, Delilah is merely described as a "woman of the vale of Sorek." So, I am not sure whether she was a nice Jewish girl who was bribed by the Philistines or a Philistine herself.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Mr. Pipps said:


> I'm in my twenties. I'm also already significantly smarter than most of my friends, simply because I'm always found in a shirt collar and jacket of some description.
> 
> I am worried a cravat may tip the balance and turn me into an absurdity. Perhaps I should entertaining dressing with one only on more formal solo occasions?


There are several ways you can view this issue. First, if your friends already consider you odd, what could be wrong about making it a little more definite? Secondly, you're English, why shouldn't you be eccentric? As to being "significantly smarter than most of my friends," well, you are an AAAC member after all!

And last, in the worst case, you'll most likely be taken by strangers as a Yank imitating an Englishman imitating an Englishman.

Ps.

I wear them often.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> I've never had anyone gawk or guffaw at me because I was wearing one.
> 
> In fact, on the strength of this thread, I shall order another one tomorrow from Beau Ties Ltd.
> 
> I note in my earlier post, I referred to my wife as "the worst philistine since Delilah." On consulting the words of Sacred Scripture, Delilah is merely described as a "woman of the vale of Sorek." So, I am not sure whether she was a nice Jewish girl who was bribed by the Philistines or a Philistine herself.


It's a big difference between someone with your age and position in life donning one in an appropriate setting and a 20 or 30 something wearing them. I'm sure you can "pull it off."

Younger people generally do not, although the ascot folks may disagree. With a younger man, they generally look like "costume."


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Flanderian said:


> T...if your friends already consider you odd...


I only wish they did. The problem is, they're perfectly comfortable with the way I dress!



Flanderian said:


> As to being "significantly smarter than most of my friends," well, you are an AAAC member after all!


Indeed, Sir! It is my duty! 



Flanderian said:


> ...in the worst case, you'll most likely be taken by strangers as a Yank imitating an Englishman imitating an Englishman.


Good point! Although I'm not sure whether that would make my friends more or less concerned about my increasingly decorated personal presentation!


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> With a younger man, they generally look like "costume."


I think you make an excellent point here. I completely agree.

To add to this predicament, I would not only be the only man in my group of friends to have ever donned a cravat, but without doubt the only person any of my friends have ever met who has been so bold (or rather, eccentric!) to wear a cravat!

The silk scarf mention by ToryBoy is also a great idea. But I'm not sure now whether this would be better or worse. I note Will's mention of such an accessory, on his legendary blog. But would a thin silk scarf, to the uninitiated, appear somewhat feminine?

One thing's for sure - I certainly won't be able to buy one in Drakes. Ouch!


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

I gotta say don't do it - you're too young. Not that I don't appreciate tha reasons that you're considering this - to the contrary. Its just that too many people your age will want to beat you up for wearing an ascot. I wish this weren't the case but it is. I'm in my twenties and I get enough funny looks just for wearing a pocket square or the occasional bow tie (I consider both to be _much_ more "socially acceptable" than an ascot).

In fact, years ago I worked in a restaurant in Annapolis, MD (a relatively well-dressed place). There was a guy in his twenties that came in regularly and wore an ascot. He was universally known as "that weird f***ing silk scarf kid." Lots of the staff expressed disdain for him. I'm not saying it's fair; I'm just tellin' it like it is.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Mr. Pipps said:


> The silk scarf mention by ToryBoy is also a great idea. But I'm not sure now whether this would be better or worse. I note Will's mention of such an accessory, on his legendary blog. But would a thin silk scarf, to the uninitiated, appear somewhat feminine?


Once-upon-a-time, silk scarves could be purchased as 18" or 20" squares in the same sort of silk and the same sort of colors and patterns now commonly used for pocket squares. These could be folded all sorts of ways and tied. They could even approximate the appearance of a cravat, or they could folded even more casually. Haven't seen them in a while. Probably gone the way of the Wooly Mammoth.

As to feminine appearance, that depends upon the wearer.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

I wear a cravat sometimes... yes, I'm over 40, barely.

But, the simple "flap over" way is pretty ostentatious and I never wear it (aside from weddings). My only way of wearing a public, every day cravat is with a vest and in a rusch knot so it appears more like a tie and less like a flaring napkin jammed in my neck. The flair is folded together and pinned (cravat pin, but usually a tie chain).

Also, I don't recommend showy silks or designs. The ascot-like-a-wedding is best reserved for ultra artsy events or areas, if not worn casually around the house with visitors. Even then, I wear one maybe 6 or 8 times a year as an accessory with some eccentricity.

A lot of people like to go flambo, and if you have the personality, why not? But, if you are a conservative person and a conservative dresser, think twice on any cravats outside of weddings or ceremonies.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I was mulling this thread over this morning:

I note that that ascot/day cravat is endorsed by such sartorial authorities as Roetzel, Alan Flusser, wardrobe blogster and forum mensch Will Boehlke and our own Andy Gilchrist, who encouraged me to purchase three ascots at once.

On the the other hand, Carson Kressley of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" fame is vehemently opposed to ascots/cravats.

So, gentlemen, which team do you want to be associated with: "Team Classic" or "Team Queer Eye"?

As for wearing the cravat being inappropriate for a young man, quite a few of my friends at Oxford wore them. Admittedly, that was a long time ago. I wore them quite a bit when I was in my 30s but then somehow got out of the habit and only resumed it on an occasional basis only about a year or so before discovering the clothing forum community.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

*Is it really a contest?*



JLibourel said:


> On the the other hand, Carson Kressley of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" fame is vehemently opposed to ascots/cravats.
> 
> *So, gentlemen, which team do you want to be associated with: "Team Classic" or "Team Queer Eye"?*


Same winner every time and it is not the Fab Five.

I find it strange that the sometimes badly dressed Fab Five are trying to give fashion advice.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> I was mulling this thread over this morning:
> 
> I note that that ascot/day cravat is endorsed by such sartorial authorities as Roetzel, Alan Flusser, wardrobe blogster and forum mensch Will Boehlke and our own Andy Gilchrist, who encouraged me to purchase three ascots at once.


Roetzel also endorses the incredibly tacky Hermes H belt:

Flusser, meanwhile, dresses like this:










I think I have to side with Carson on this one.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

Cravat with morning coat. Otherwise, risk ridicule.


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## bigdukesix (May 18, 2007)

I wear them almost every day. in fact, i just bought three last week.

I tend to wear them casually, with cords, jeans, moleskins,etc. I leave the top button of my shirt open, so it shows only slightly.

My colleagues gave me a little razzing at first, but not anymore.

My two cents-one can wear a button down and chinos and look like anyone else on the street. A cravat gives it a little pop.


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## heimskringla (Nov 2, 2008)

I used to wear them for fun in my late teens/very early 20's... ascots as well. I don't really care for them anymore.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Blueboy1938 said:


> Cravat with morning coat. Otherwise, risk ridicule.


FIH with morning coat

Cravat = casual

Ascot = Victorian or rented morning attire

Ascots are dead

Cravats alive and well

See this illustrated guide
https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=846481&postcount=99


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

DocHolliday said:


> Roetzel also endorses the incredibly tacky Hermes H belt:
> 
> Flusser, meanwhile, dresses like this:
> 
> ...


He's an old man now. At least he hasnt gone "Members Only"


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

JLibourel said:


> I was mulling this thread over this morning:
> 
> I note that that ascot/day cravat is endorsed by such sartorial authorities as Roetzel, Alan Flusser, wardrobe blogster and forum mensch Will Boehlke and our own Andy Gilchrist, who encouraged me to purchase three ascots at once.
> 
> ...


Why would Carson even be mentioned on this forum?


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

The Louche said:


> ... "that weird f***ing silk scarf kid."...


Dear Louche

Great to find another twenty-something member of AAAC! And my word... you wear a pocket square, and even a bow tie, when spending time with your friends? They must be a rather tolerant bunch! At least by my social standards.

Your comment on your recollection of the 'weird silk scarf kid' had me in stitches! But you're absolutely right. This truly is how it is. I seam to keep things smart, yet relatively beyond reproach with my friends. But I must admit, if I were even as daring as you by wearing a bow tie amongst them, I would be tatters in seconds. And the legacy would remain for years. Whilst I do feel a sense of duty to be an ambassador for sartorial standards when out in the wide world, I would draw the line at undergoing the level of criticism or ridicule that religious martyrs have been forced to endure, for the way they embodied what they believe.

Perhaps I should retain my admiration of the cravat as purely a personal reserve?


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Preu Pummel said:


> ... if you are a conservative person and a conservative dresser, think twice on any cravats outside of weddings or ceremonies.


I am indeed both, and so I note your advice very strongly in bold letters on my page!

Thank you :icon_smile:


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Literide said:


> FIH with morning coat
> 
> Cravat = casual
> 
> ...


You live in NYC and I presume you are an American. I assume you don't ask for "vests" when shopping from undershirts and that when people say "pants," they don't mean "underpants."

We Americans use the term "ascot" to denote two somewhat similar but distinct pieces of neckwear--the casual garment the English call a "day cravat" and the archaic piece of neckwear in shown in the linked post.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> So, gentlemen, which team do you want to be associated with: "Team Classic" or "Team Queer Eye"?


Dear JLibourel (HRH King Fop!)

Oh how I wish I could be a Fop in my every day dress, and not be minded by anyone at all. In fact, there is a street not too far from my home - it is called 'Fop Street'. It's a lovely road, near the middle of nowhere in the countryside, and with some exquisite old country houses lining it. I wish I lived there. I know I would experience a moment of glee, every time I wrote my address on the front of my correspondence. That would be the life for me... at Fop Street! I dearly mean it! :icon_smile:

Anyway, back to the business of this thread!

I am absolutely in awe of the way you have positioned this sartorial imperative. You have made the decision almost as abundantly clear as Emanuel Kant's very own Categorical Imperative, of which I am a big fan.

However, I should probably also mention at this juncture that I am a fan of Kant's Categorical Imperative chiefly from an academic point of view. And I very much wish that my own cravat decision could be boiled down to as essential a choice as whether I would like to be effectively straight or gay, in a sartorial sense, in the path which I chose. I know for sure that Kant himself would compel me to observe my duty, but I am not so sure what exactly my duty is, here. You see, I am still nursing a little concern that should I choose what I think is the straight road, that everyone else around me might think I've opted for the queer way!

And that would undoubtedly give rise to no end of unwanted attention! 
_"Oh Pipps, that's a very nice bag you're wearing." And oh Pipps, it doesn't happen to match the tone of leather of your belt, watch strap and shoes, does it Pipps?" "And oh Pipps, I have a cousin who would be right up your street!"_

A cousin, you say? And someone noticed my bloody bag belt and shoes for once? Well then come to think of it, perhaps this cravat business could pay off for me after all! :icon_smile_wink:


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> You live in NYC and I presume you are an American. I assume you don't ask for "vests" when shopping from undershirts and that when people say "pants," they don't mean "underpants.


Wait a second... If the honourable gentleman is walking around in public in a vest, pants and an ascot, then something might seem a little amiss from where I'm standing! 

Unless of course it's at one of those artsy events? :icon_smile_wink:


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Sator (on another thread!) said:


> This a cravat:


Dear Cravat wearers of the adult world...

I have one small question on a tangent from the earlier referenced discussion:

Is a cravat usually worn this high? I have only previous seen cravats worn well below the level of the undone top button of a shirt.

A cravat tied in this fashion looks elegant and luxurious. But is it the norm? And again, would it be recommend? (Within cravat-circles, that is?)


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## stylesnob (Feb 25, 2008)

ToryBoy said:


> Posh, posh, posh :icon_smile:
> 
> Wear a silk scarf instead.


Agreed! If you do already have some cravat's in your wardrobe, then post a picture of how you are planning on wearing it. I think it is possible if matched correctly and worn with confidence and not arrogance.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Mr. Pipps said:


> Dear Cravat wearers of the adult world...
> 
> I have one small question on a tangent from the earlier referenced discussion:
> 
> ...


The ascot () depicted would not appear as it does in the photo unless you are a manikin, also known as a clothing dummy. It will descend and ride askew. After lunch, it will have stains of pizza sauce or steak and kidney pie.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Literide said:


> He's an old man now. At least he hasnt gone "Members Only"


That's the shame, though. No one looks better in clothing than a well-dressed old dude.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Flanderian said:


> ...unless you are a manikin, also known as a clothing dummy...


I think I must be one, but not the other. Does that count for much?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Mr. Pipps said:


> I think I must be one, but not the other. Does that count for much?


But aren't we all! :icon_smile_big:


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## bigdukesix (May 18, 2007)

i wear mine much lower, and only one button is left undone.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

JLibourel said:


> You live in NYC and I presume you are an American. I assume you don't ask for "vests" when shopping from undershirts and that when people say "pants," they don't mean "underpants."
> 
> We Americans use the term "ascot" to denote two somewhat similar but distinct pieces of neckwear--the casual garment the English call a "day cravat" and the archaic piece of neckwear in shown in the linked post.


I was trying to point out the distinctions while also disagreeing with you and Blueboy 
As has been resolved on this forum with the help of our British bretheren, the American use of the catchall word Ascot is incorrect as they are indeed distinct articles.

You and Blueboy appear to advocate for the daytime formal use of an ascot, while saying the casual day cravat is anachronistic and should be avoided.

I take the opposite position. I always wear a FIH and turned down collar with a morning coat, never an ascot/winged collar which would be anachronistic, costumey, etc as would be spats and a walking stick.

The day cravat is attractive and functional, and I often wear one with a casual sport coat or v-neck pullover. That is as formal as it should get, and it certainly isnt passe, simply an elegant casual accesory which I would think most who participate here would appreciate.

As to my location, yes, NY NY!
Dont wear undershirts
But I do wear trousers


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Literide said:


> I was trying to point out the distinctions while also disagreeing with you and Blueboy
> As has been resolved on this forum with the help of our British bretheren, the American use of the catchall word Ascot is incorrect as they are indeed distinct articles.
> 
> You and Blueboy appear to advocate for the daytime formal use of an ascot, while saying the casual day cravat is anachronistic and should be avoided.
> ...


I am in the business of communication, and I like to think I can express myself with reasonable clarity. On reviewing this thread, I don't know how the hell you got the notion that I appeared "to advocate for the daytime formal use of an ascot, while saying the casual day cravat is anachronistic and should be avoided." That was certainly not my intention.

To set the record straight, I have worn an ascot (in the English sense) exactly once in my life, coupled with wing collar, at my second wedding. In retrospect, it looks as archaic and costumey as hell, and in hindsight I would have done much better to have worn a turndown collar shirt and a necktie with the rental morning attire. Since the marriage was a disastrous flop, that's rather immaterial today. What I do advocate and wear with great frequency is the casual neckwear that the English call a "day cravat" and most Americans (if they know the name for it at all) call an "ascot."

Rather curiously, Beau Ties Ltd., my favorite purveyor of these garments, uses the term "ascot" to denote a Velcro-fastened affair and "cravat" for the more traditional, tie-it-yourself type that I always order. Both are "day cravats" and not formal ascots.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks to this thread and those pictures of CG in "To Catch A Thief" I bought my first cravat for 30 years or so at the weekend. Even in Jermyn St not too many places sell them now.


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## cravat (Feb 8, 2009)

My vote is against the cravat unless worn in a very understated way. In all but the toniest of circles it would draw comments.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Look around!*

Doesn't anyone just look around them to see what others might be wearing? It's very simple, really. If you go to a local dog show, for instance, are there a few who are wearing cravats? Or the races?

It all boils down to appropriate attire, it seems to me. While trying to educate-up your associates may be a commendable effort, if you have to ask a bunch of folks who are not located in the area in which you circulate, then you should ask yourself whether you are really up to it.

Overdressing, or its cousin eccentricity, can be carried off, but the carrier better have a thick skin. It's a little bit like the response regarding asking the price of a yacht: "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it." If you have to ask whether you will be considered odd for wearing something odd in the context within which you will be wearing it, then you are far too concerned about that to go ahead with it, in my opinion.

I wear a kilt, mainly to celtic festivals or British balls, which of course entails wearing the kit to and from. However, I don't wear it to the market. That may be considered a lack of confidence on my part, but in SoCal it would be considered beyond eccentric. So, I've answered my own question.


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## bbcrock (Feb 13, 2009)

I think wearing a cravat is a bridge too far. It has become a costume.

Honestly, the bow tie has also become a costume, so has the Ten Gallon cowboy hat (when I was a child you still saw people- ahem, my father, wear them with a business suit ala LBJ), the bolo tie, suits in bold primary colors, having your dog wear a bandana, sneakers with a suit, pipes, dyed leather for men, etc.

Things that I think are on the verge of becoming self-parody: cowboy boots and a suit, cigars, goatees, aviator glasses, and a few more things.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

cravat said:


> My vote is against the cravat unless worn in a very understated way. In all but the toniest of circles it would draw comments.


I wear a cravat a great deal of the time. I don't move in the "toniest of circles," and I virtually never get comments (except from my wife, who dislikes ascots/cravats). I think it should always be worn in an "understated" way. Unbuttoning your second or third shirt button down from the collar in order to flaunt it just looks stupid!


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

Last week on Casual Friday a colleague of mine who is in his 70's wore one to work. He was most impressed by the fact that I knew what he was wearing and to be honest it suited him. He didn't look over dressed or pretentious in it. Oh him it was an appropriate statement.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

I was on a Caribbean cruise recently and noticed a gentleman who looked to be in his eighties sporting a cravat. I thought it looked good, so I unpacked mine and wore it to dinner that night. I thought I got some approving looks from the staff as I also had on a navy blazer, and some folks dress so casually as to be turned away. (no shorts or flip flops).


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

I understand why you raise the issue, Mr P, and I wish we lived in a world where we didn't have to even ask the question. But sadly we do not, and so I advise against wearing a cravat. I know you can cope with the brickbats from those who are sympathetic to you - but I fear you would be a target for those who aren't. I know I would be picked clean by tne natives within seconds of coming out of my local Tube station for much less than wearing a cravat.


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## Sir Royston (Nov 10, 2005)

I wear a Cravat frequently.. I love them and when out shopping or the cinema or a casual dinner where a tie is just too formal ( As if there is ever a time??) then a cravat works rather splendidly!!
RBH


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## nicksull (Sep 1, 2005)

bbcrock said:


> I think wearing a cravat is a bridge too far. It has become a costume.
> 
> Honestly, the bow tie has also become a costume, so has the Ten Gallon cowboy hat (when I was a child you still saw people- ahem, my father, wear them with a business suit ala LBJ), the bolo tie, suits in bold primary colors, having your dog wear a bandana, sneakers with a suit, pipes, dyed leather for men, etc.
> 
> Things that I think are on the verge of becoming self-parody: cowboy boots and a suit, cigars, goatees, aviator glasses, and a few more things.


VERY WELL OBSERVED. BRAVO. AGREED ON CIGARS. I LIKE THE TASTE BUT I THINK THEM TASTELESS IF YOU GET MY MEANING...


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## Sir Royston (Nov 10, 2005)

I suppose it depends on where you are in the world.

Here.. perfectly acceptable


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## camcravat (Dec 21, 2008)

Mr. Pipps said:


> Dear Cravat wearers of the adult world...
> 
> I have one small question on a tangent from the earlier referenced discussion:
> 
> ...


*Depends on where you're going and how you feel you'd like to wear your cravat. Sometimes I like to wear mine a bit higher, but not with the 'full on' look like the one in the photo. Very occasionally I leave the second button undone. *


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## Sir Royston (Nov 10, 2005)

And also on the cravat itself. Some of mine are heavier silk or wider so the material and knot will sit a little higher...

RBH


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## Belle_Epoque (May 10, 2009)

I own a cravat. It's designed not to be taken seriously (polyester and printed with a funky pink and green pattern) and I used to wear it a lot more last year.
This year, for one reason or another, I have barely touched it.

It is very bold. I have fun wearing it, but I have to admit that it looks very costume-like when I see it in pictures.
So... it's up to you. I'm all for people wearing whatever they want without worrying about conventions or the opinions of others. But a cravat, I feel, is tough to wear.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

This thread is STILL going?
It's fun to see something that so divides people in terms of conservative wear, especially an accessory.



JLibourel said:


> ... Carson Kressley of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" fame is vehemently opposed to ascots/cravats.
> 
> So, gentlemen, which team do you want to be associated with: "Team Classic" or "Team Queer Eye"?


This sums it up really well.

Carson is a personality. Some of what says and pushes is excellent, but he is putting people into younger fashion forward modes of dress. I loved seeing that guy swanning around and pampering the straight guys on TV, but I wouldn't go with everything he says.


Belle_Epoque said:


> I own a cravat. It's designed not to be taken seriously (polyester and printed with a funky pink and green pattern) and I used to wear it a lot more last year.
> This year, for one reason or another, I have barely touched it.


I have no doubt why you stopped wearing it--you realized it was garish.

If you have a dark brown day cravat and wear it with a subdued grey or brown suit with a light yellow/cream shirt, I doubt many would notice it unless you wore it in some flambo way that drew attention to it.

I have yet once to see anyone on the street or in a restaurant or anywhere roll over onto the floor and start pointing at a cravat wearer screaming through flowing tears, "OH MI GAWD!! LOOK AT THAT! LOOOOK LOOOOKK!!! HE'S WEARING A THURSTON HOWEL DEVICE LIKE A FOOOOOOOOOLLL!"

...in fact, I've never heard anyone even comment under their breath about such things. If anything, a person wearing a proper day cravat might get slight looks or people thinking, "I don't have the nads to wear a cravat. That guy is kinda weird."


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

No shop seems to sell cravats and im interested in looking at some closeup.
Depending on what they look like when i try them on will determine whether i dare buy one.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Jermyn St is the place to look certainly Hilditch and Key sell them and I suspect that others such as New and Lingwood and Turnbull and Asser will.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

culverwood said:


> Jermyn St is the place to look certainly Hilditch and Key sell them and I suspect that others such as New and Lingwood and Turnbull and Asser will.


CHeers, i thought those type shops might do them. But i was in my local shopping centre yesterday and no shop seemed to do them.
I did go into shops like m & s, H & M, Burton and Top man though. So its not suprising i didnt see any.


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## Sir Royston (Nov 10, 2005)

VincentC said:


> No shop seems to sell cravats and im interested in looking at some closeup.
> Depending on what they look like when i try them on will determine whether i dare buy one.


I gather you are in London. Try Jermyn Street. Most sell Cravats there.
Hilditch & Key, New and Lingwood etc

RBH


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

Sir Royston said:


> I gather you are in London. Try Jermyn Street. Most sell Cravats there.
> Hilditch & Key, New and Lingwood etc
> 
> RBH


Yes you are right. I might try them actually someday. I have never really wanted to wear a cravat really. But i think they look good on the men and woman ive seen.
Not too sure if i can pull it off, without looking to pompous etc.

Are cravats mainly for dressing or do they serve a funtional use?


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

^I'll use wool cravats in winter to keep warmer. They serve much the same function as a scarf. Silk cravats also make you warmer and cut down air circulation in your shirt. For this reason I don't care to wear one when it is extremely hot.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

DocHolliday said:


> I'm in the camp that thinks they're costume, but would be interested to see supporters post pics of examples they think look good. Other than vintage images of Cary Grant and such.


I wear one occasionally, and depending on the way you wear it (there are many knots possible, like with ties), it can look very smart with a sportscoat and shirt sans tie. I don't wear solid colors or very mild patterns only, and light ones at that. The fabrics also make a statement. I have 2 cravats, one in linen and one in lightweight wool. I almost always have an crew-neck undershirt on, and a cravat does not look too out of place to people who have seen me a lot. I also wear mine low on the neck, with it just peeking above mshirt collar. As I said, it is all about how you wear it.

I prefer this style:

These following styles, however, definitely look costumey:


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

Different styles of wearing a cravat:

under the shirt (which I prefer)


(over the shirt)


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## alex87tkd (Jun 12, 2009)

Personally, I like cravats. However, they must, must, must be worn under the shirt and in an understated manor. If worn in any other way, it would attract the unwanted attention described.

However, as said before, the fact you had to ask is perhaps an indication that you shouldn't do it. In short, man up and wear it or pipe down and put a tie on like the rest of us.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

On the Nixon tapes, Richard Nixon states :-

'.... and he is obviously queer. He wears an ascot and so forth...'

from 2.25





Nixon also has the classic line :- 'I mean I won't even shake hands with anybody from San Francisco' :icon_smile_big:

Nixon tapes are far more revealing than any biography. You get to hear the man relaxed with his guard down. Fascinating.

Anyway, if Nixon thought that about ascots I would say it is a very difficult look to pull off. Most people would not want to anyway.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

srivats said:


> I prefer this style:
> 
> These following styles, however, definitely look costumey:
> 
> (snip)


Personally, I prefer the latter to the former. Both are costumey, IMO, but at least the second makes no pretense about it.

The trouble with such neckwear is that the numbers of guys who manage to pull it off are far, far smaller than those who think they're pulling it off. Yet every guy who wears one thinks it looks good on him, even if it doesn't look good on those other guys.

Not that it can't look good, I guess; maybe I just haven't seen a good example.

I'd be interested to see any pictures of a modern guy, under 50, that anyone here thinks looks good in an ascot. Not Cary Grant, et al, but a practical application by a non-celebrity in the modern age.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Depending on circumstance, I think you can get away perfectly easily wearing a day-cravat (the inside the collar variety) in Gloucestershire. It may be slightly evocative of Captain Hastings or even Reggie Perrin's communist son-in-law but the ascot and other pictured varieties look horrendous in my opinion.

A couple of summers ago I regularly dabbled in the more canal-boat-vagrant-esque neckerchief and found that most people in my native - and your neighbouring - county of Hereford. It's not really a standout statement unless it's a garish colour, but you might embarrass your friends a little.


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> Anyway, if Nixon thought that about ascots I would say it is a very difficult look to pull off. Most people would not want to anyway.


If Nixon didn't like it, it must be all right.


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## Politely (May 8, 2008)

Two words: Ralph Furley.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

DocHolliday said:


> I'd be interested to see any pictures of a modern guy, under 50, that anyone here thinks looks good in an ascot. Not Cary Grant, et al, but a practical application by a non-celebrity in the modern age.


I'll try to take a picture next time when I am wearing mine. It doesn't look as bad as you think, really. I get way less comments about a cravat compared to when I wear a tie to go out with friends.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> ^I'll use wool cravats in winter to keep warmer. They serve much the same function as a scarf. Silk cravats also make you warmer and cut down air circulation in your shirt. For this reason I don't care to wear one when it is extremely hot.


I thought cravats maybe to keep the sun off of your chest and neck?
Do you tuck the cravats into your shirt with the top two buttons of shirt undone?


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

VincentC said:


> I thought cravats maybe to keep the sun off of your chest and neck?
> Do you tuck the cravats into your shirt with the top two buttons of shirt undone?


NO! Just the top button. Flashing too much cravat gives cravat-wearing a bad name. Idi Amin did that a lot in the movie "The Last Emperor of Scotland."


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

What colour cravat should i wear and suits each of these different coloured shirts?

1)Pale blue shirt
2)White Shirt
3)safari stone coloured shirt
4) Red shirt


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

What type of cravat is a bog standard everday one that i can wear? I suppose silk ones are the high class ones?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

VincentC said:


> What type of cravat is a bog standard everday one that i can wear? I suppose silk ones are the high class ones?


I think "bog standard" and day cravat are mutually exclusive terms.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

VincentC said:


> What colour cravat should i wear and suits each of these different coloured shirts?
> 
> 1)Pale blue shirt
> 2)White Shirt
> ...


Use the same complementary colors that you would for neckties. Pale blue and white shirts especially give you tremendous latitude in your color choices.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

^^^
But i dont think i can go wrong with a red cravat with white dots. Or a blue cravat. That is the standard colour for cravats from what ive seen.


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## Ricardo-CL (Mar 31, 2009)

I started another discussion on the same topic elsewhere, which I don't want to use anymore since this one has way more answers and was started before.

Anyway, I was recommended there to go ahead and use it by a very nice fellow, and I did. I got myself two cravat ties from ebay and another from my taylor, which agreed to do me one for free if I gave his name if I were asked for it on the street.

Being completely pragmatic, I regret for not having started using cravats before, they make my skinny neck (14.5") look way better on the rest of my body, they keep my favorite shirts' necks in inpollute conditions, and it also keeps me warm on these chilly winter days.

Regarding others' perception, well, I must say that 1 out of 3 people turns to look at me, but with a positive face though. I do live in a big city (5 MM inhabitants), and as such, there is plenty of room for way more stranger stuff to come across. Judging by their faces, people is usually glad to see people innovating "backwards".

I've found something negative though, unlike regular ties, Cravats are very hard to deal with while wearing them, if by any reason you happen to move it tends to wrinkle or even loose a bit, and fix it can be a real hassle.

Last but not least, I wouldn't recommend the use of this accessory on rather big persons. For instance, my dad is 6'1" and 210 pounds, his body type is what we'd call athletic or mesomorph, and the Cravat just doesn't go with him, his upper body is big enough already, with the Cravat, he looks like a Turkey.

P.D.: The Nixon quote helped me remember the Frost/Nixon movie when he criticized Frost's shoes.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Ricardo-CL said:


> Last but not least, I wouldn't recommend the use of this accessory on rather big persons.


Sorry about your dad. But, Au contraire, I'm large, and worse, old, and it's one of the most flattering garments I wear. The turkey look of which you speak sounds like the result of an erroneously billowing cravat. Mine are neatly tucked behind the first button below the collar where they offer only a discreet bit of color.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

Is it ok to wear a cravat under the shirt with jeans? Is that a good look? Why is is that when men wear cravats to make it look good they have to practically hide it away under the shirt? But when woman wear it, or any neck wear it looks good on full view?

So when i go into turnbull and asser someday should i just ask for a day cravat?


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

I wore a cravat last week to work. A few women noticed and commented upon it in a positive manner. As for my male colleagues, not a word.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

Do people think cravats are as prentious as bow ties?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I actually think they are more so, but some will disagree.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

VincentC said:


> Do people think cravats are as prentious as bow ties?


I think neither are.

Dress to please yourself, but also in a manner you deem appropriate and respectful of others. Those worth knowing will judge you for yourself, those who don't, aren't.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Flanderian said:


> I think neither are.
> 
> Dress to please yourself, but also in a manner you deem appropriate and respectful of others. Those worth knowing will judge you for yourself, those who don't, aren't.


It's funny, I see this posted frequently on the clothing forums. But the forums don't seem very charitable toward those who deviate from the forums' conservative tastes.

The dress-for-yourself sentiment is appealing, but its practical application extends only so far in the real world.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

DocHolliday said:


> The dress-for-yourself sentiment is appealing, but its practical application extends only so far in the real world.


Hence the qualification, "but also in a manner you deem appropriate and respectful of others." And while the sentiment might be appealing, I reserve the right to find juvenile and tasteless attire appalling. I.e., you can't boogaloo at your grandma's house! :icon_smile_big:


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

On the topic of ascots vs. bowties, I think bowties are more conspicuous and "in your face" than ascots. I think the bowties have more negative baggage these days, just my subjective impression.

I wear both, but ascots far more commonly.


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

VincentC said:


> Do people think cravats are as prentious as bow ties?


They add a certain je ne sais quio, without being pretentious.

And I disagree with sentiments expressed earlier in this post. I'm over 50 and I think their . for a man my age to wear.

As for bow ties I went through a period of wearing them in my 20's, although I doubt I would don one now.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

What do the style gurus think of pre tied cravats, and these cotton ones in particular? Do you think i should go for one of these as a first cravat and dipping my toes into it.

https://www.tomsawyerwaistcoats.co.uk/subprod/papworth-pre-tied-day-cravats-0003200.aspx


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## wimbledonballs (Sep 22, 2008)

*cravats*

IF you are living in LONDON the place to shop for cravats are two shop
TURNBULL AND ASSER OR NEWLINGWOOD do hope you enjoy wearing
them as i do


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

wimbledonballs said:


> IF you are living in LONDON the place to shop for cravats are two shop
> TURNBULL AND ASSER OR NEWLINGWOOD do hope you enjoy wearing
> them as i do


I went new lingwood today and there cravats were too big.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

VincentC said:


> What do the style gurus think of pre tied cravats, and these cotton ones in particular? Do you think i should go for one of these as a first cravat and dipping my toes into it.
> 
> https://www.tomsawyerwaistcoats.co.uk/subprod/papworth-pre-tied-day-cravats-0003200.aspx


Given how simple it is to tie an ascot/cravat, I have never seen the point of these. Beau Ties Ltd., who have made most of my cravats, offer them. Rather idiosyncratically, they call the Velcro-fastened jobs "ascots," while the self-tie ones, which are what I get, are called "cravats."

The Velcro jobs strike me as akin to pre-tied bowties.

I had a few cotton ascots back in the '70s. They were okay but lack the caressing qualities of silk.

"Tom Sawyer's" prices seem pretty reasonable if you want to test the waters with an ascot/cravat.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

VincentC said:


> I went new lingwood today and there cravats were too big.


"Too big"!? What's your neck size, man--13?

Beau Ties Ltd. of Vermont offers sized cravats, if that's any help. Being a size 17 1/2, I take their 16-18-sized cravats.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> Given how simple it is to tie an ascot/cravat, I have never seen the point of these. Beau Ties Ltd., who have made most of my cravats, offer them. Rather idiosyncratically, they call the Velcro-fastened jobs "ascots," while the self-tie ones, which are what I get, are called "cravats."
> 
> The Velcro jobs strike me as akin to pre-tied bowties.
> 
> ...


So you arent a fan of the pre tied ones? I may stick with the cotton one, but get a self tie one then. I bet there is subtle differences in look to one you tie your self, compared to a already pre tied one i bet. Similar to fake clip on ties compared to real ones.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> "Too big"!? What's your neck size, man--13?
> 
> Beau Ties Ltd. of Vermont offers sized cravats, if that's any help. Being a size 17 1/2, I take their 16-18-sized cravats.


Its just that the cravats seemed unusually long compared to the ones i looked at in hilditch and key. The new ling wood ones would come down to my belly button it seemed. Exagerating a bit of course but just seemed too long for a under the shirt cravat.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

^By the time you had looped them around your neck and loosely knotted them, they might not seem so long. Mine usually finish well down on my chest.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

VincentC said:


> What do the style gurus think of pre tied cravats, and these cotton ones in particular? Do you think i should go for one of these as a first cravat and dipping my toes into it.
> 
> https://www.tomsawyerwaistcoats.co.uk/subprod/papworth-pre-tied-day-cravats-0003200.aspx


Avoid these. They are generally regarded as hopelessly unsophisticated.


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

Orsini said:


> Avoid these. They are generally regarded as hopelessly unsophisticated.


I just ordered a self tied one. Im afraid its cotton though, rather than silk. What do people think of it?

https://www.tomsawyerwaistcoats.co.uk/store/showitemCRAVAT-P-BLACK.aspx


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

ajo said:


> They add a certain je ne sais quio, without being pretentious.
> 
> And I disagree with sentiments expressed earlier in this post. I'm over 50 and I think their . for a man my age to wear.
> 
> As for bow ties I went through a period of wearing them in my 20's, although I doubt I would don one now.


Do you think the average man on the street is more likely to wear a cravat then a bowtie then? Bowties and cravats i associate with eccentricity.

I tend to associate bow ties with lecturers


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

Have any famous men in history liked cravats? Or which celebrity in history has really looked good, or made the cravat popular.

To be honest i dont see many men wear cravats you see. Either on the tv or on the street.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

The Essex take on cravats is interesting. Anyone with a surname of 'Tweed' obviously has class :-

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowb...Jack-Tweed-turn-stomp-divots-C-list-bash.html

Difficult to upstage the lovely Jordan though.


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## Mark Ligett (May 10, 2008)

*Very flattering, indeed...*

Flanderian, I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. I think ascots/cravats look really great on larger men. I have always thought the ascot really compliments a guy with a larger build.



Flanderian said:


> Sorry about your dad. But, Au contraire, I'm large, and worse, old, and it's one of the most flattering garments I wear. The turkey look of which you speak sounds like the result of an erroneously billowing cravat. Mine are neatly tucked behind the first button below the collar where they offer only a discreet bit of color.


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## Mark Ligett (May 10, 2008)

*"Pre-tied" ascots*

Vincent: I am a huge fan of ascots and have a sizeable collection. When I first saw the pre-tied versions offered by Beau Ties Limited of Vermont, I scoffed at them. They brought back memories of clip on ties the likes of which I wore in grade school. I hated them then and I hate them now. But, knowing the overall quality of Beau Ties stuff, and also knowing what great silks they offer, I gave one of their pre-tied ones a try. While I have to admit that I still always prefer one that is self-tied, the pre-tied ones look pretty good---especially with a shirt with only the top button undone. The biggest advantage of them would be that they never slip and stay right in place. Of course, one of the things I enjoy about wearing an ascot is having to adjust it and tighten it periodically! <smile> I have a friend who is a chef with a cooking series on television in California. He always wears a silk ascot with his chef's jacket rather than the signature "tie" that most chefs wear. The ascot has sort of become his trademark. I sent him a Beau Ties Limited pre-tied ascot and he loved it. I believe he often wears these now when filming a show because of the fact that they never need adjusting.

Like everything, it all comes down to ones particular taste and likes and dislikes.



VincentC said:


> What do the style gurus think of pre tied cravats, and these cotton ones in particular? Do you think i should go for one of these as a first cravat and dipping my toes into it.
> 
> https://www.tomsawyerwaistcoats.co.uk/subprod/papworth-pre-tied-day-cravats-0003200.aspx


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Mark Ligett said:


> ...a guy with a larger build.


All the better to deter unwanted comments!


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

Mark Ligett said:


> Vincent: I am a huge fan of ascots and have a sizeable collection. When I first saw the pre-tied versions offered by Beau Ties Limited of Vermont, I scoffed at them. They brought back memories of clip on ties the likes of which I wore in grade school. I hated them then and I hate them now. But, knowing the overall quality of Beau Ties stuff, and also knowing what great silks they offer, I gave one of their pre-tied ones a try. While I have to admit that I still always prefer one that is self-tied, the pre-tied ones look pretty good---especially with a shirt with only the top button undone. The biggest advantage of them would be that they never slip and stay right in place. Of course, one of the things I enjoy about wearing an ascot is having to adjust it and tighten it periodically! <smile> I have a friend who is a chef with a cooking series on television in California. He always wears a silk ascot with his chef's jacket rather than the signature "tie" that most chefs wear. The ascot has sort of become his trademark. I sent him a Beau Ties Limited pre-tied ascot and he loved it. I believe he often wears these now when filming a show because of the fact that they never need adjusting.
> 
> Like everything, it all comes down to ones particular taste and likes and dislikes.


So you dont particularly like pre tied as much as self tie, but would wear a pre tied one?

I kind of agree that pre tied are ok as long as people dont know you are wearing one. The fact that pre tied look perfectly fine to the average person is the important thing. I'd even wear a clip on tie in a job interview, as long as the interviwee didnt know it was a clip on is what im saying.


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## camcravat (Dec 21, 2008)

*ascot / cravat with a tux can look as classy as a bowtie?*

I recently wore a black silk ascot instead of a bowtie to a fancy do. Although I look nothing like David Beckham, I received favourable comments. And....it was more comfortable. The other advantage was that it was so easy to put on and I didn't have the battle of trying to tie like I usually have with a bowtie. I am not suggesting a replacement; just an alternative.


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

VincentC said:


> Do you think the average man on the street is more likely to wear a cravat then a bowtie then? Bowties and cravats i associate with eccentricity.
> 
> I tend to associate bow ties with lecturers


As for the average man on the street Karl Malden wore one with aplomb as just a regular guy in A Street Car Named Desire.

And I think that any one who would wear a cravat or a bow tie would not consider themselves to be the average man on the street.

I don't associate bow ties with eccentricity but maybe its an English cultural thing which I can assure you doesn't apply in the antipodes.

And being a former University lecturer I never knew any one on campus who ever wore one.

As I said before cravats have a certain style that does set you apart from the herd. In a BBC documentary about the Australian participation in the moon landing one staff member at Parkes Observatory was shown escorting the PM on the day. He was well dressed for the occasion and was wearing a cravat. And that cravat is what I noticed.


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## CEFashion (Jul 21, 2009)

I've always wanted to give cravats a true reboot style-wise - nothing too ostentatious to look like a 19th century English nobleman, but not so minimalistic to look like the neck from a skivvy.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

camcravat said:


> I recently wore a black silk ascot instead of a bowtie to a fancy do. Although I look nothing like David Beckham, I received favourable comments. And....it was more comfortable. The other advantage was that it was so easy to put on and I didn't have the battle of trying to tie like I usually have with a bowtie. I am not suggesting a replacement; just an alternative.


It's either black tie, which is a black bow, or it's not. The day cravat is not an acceptable substitute for black tie. Less formal occasions require a dark suit, but I'd wear a day cravat to a very informal evening gathering where men will be wearing odd jackets, even though it is a *day* cravat. Black tie and dinner jacket (U.S., tuxedo) is *evening* wear.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

While an ascot cravat is daywear, it is not the same thing as a day cravat. An ascot is a very formal tie, tied outside the collar and usually fastened with a stick pin, most common at the beginning of the 20th century, seen here worn by the character Chairman Sydney Holland in the BBC's recent Casualty 1909:

A day cravat is informal and is essentially th silk neckscarf worn inside the collar that most people are more familiar with, as sported here by BBC supersizer Giles Coren:


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Salieri said:


> While an ascot cravat is daywear, it is not the same thing as a day cravat. An ascot is a very formal tie, tied outside the collar and usually fastened with a stick pin, most common at the beginning of the 20th century, seen here worn by the character Chairman Sydney Holland in the BBC's recent Casualty 1909:
> 
> A day cravat is informal and is essentially th silk neckscarf worn inside the collar that most people are more familiar with, as sported here by BBC supersizer Giles Coren:


A significant and helpful distinction. The difficulty is that for at least 60 years the American RTW industry has referred to a day cravat *as* an ascot. And therefore to virtually all Americans, a day cravat *is* an ascot. Evidently the original copywriters for the advertisers didn't know what an ascot was, or even more likely, simply liked the sound of the word and appropriated it, realizing that we bumptious Yanks wouldn't have a clue.


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## Charles74 (May 2, 2010)

I realize this is an old thread but had to add my 2 cents. I personally wear ascots/cravats quite often. As we are business casual at the office, a few years ago I decided to wear an ascot. I was remarkably suprised at the positive comments I received. Since then I have taken to wearing them at the office on a regular basis as well as on the weekend. And becasue I wear them often, it seems to be accepted as just my style


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

But has a cravat got any practical use? Scarves or shemaghs can protect you from the sun or cold. Is a cravat just for show?

Ray winston wears an interesting item of neck wear in kingdom of the crystal skull. I was wondering what exactly it was he was wearing? Kind of just tied it around the neck which is nothing i had seen before.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Preu Pummel said:


> IMy only way of wearing a public, every day cravat is with a vest and in a rusch knot so it appears more like a tie and less like a flaring napkin jammed in my neck. The flair is folded together and pinned (cravat pin, but usually a tie chain).


At which point it ceases to be a cravat, if it ever was one, and becomes an Ascot or a tie. 
Are we going to have to do the whole "an ascot is not a cravat" thing again?

A cravat is as much the way it is worn as it is the item i.e. a scarf, worn inside the shirt, folded over once.

The thing worn on the shirt with a pin is an Ascot.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

I think Mr Tweed is trying too hard.
I'm not saying you have to be manor born to pull off a cravat, but Jack Tweed is a violent felon, probably uneducated, and famous only for participation in a reality show that features low brow, dysfunctional, and anti-social behavior, and selects participants accordingly. That his surname originates in the Scottish borders may partially explain this, it isnt so of every modern person with roots in that area. Were all decended from violent brutes after all...
He just isnt able to "pull it off" as his otherwise trendy outfit looks like it was purchased the day before just for the occasion.


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## Mr. Tweed (Apr 9, 2009)

Literide said:


> I think Mr Tweed is trying too hard.


Well, you certainly got my attention there for a while... 

Yours,
Mr. Tweed


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Mr. Tweed said:


> Well, you certainly got my attention there for a while...
> 
> Yours,
> Mr. Tweed


Very sorry Mr Tweed. I thought I quoted the appropriate entry from earlier in the string but apparently not.
Our Mr Tweed = thumbs up
That other Mr Tweed = thumbs down


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> At which point it ceases to be a cravat, if it ever was one, and becomes an Ascot or a tie.
> Are we going to have to do the whole "an ascot is not a cravat" thing again?
> 
> A cravat is as much the way it is worn as it is the item i.e. a scarf, worn inside the shirt, folded over once.
> ...


How many times do we have to straighten that one out?


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## Mr. Tweed (Apr 9, 2009)

*Low key cravat action*

By the way, wearing cravat (BrE) or ascot (AmE) does not have to be done in a retired playboy style. Here is my boss trying a less conspicuous way to get into cravat action:

It works out all right I think. So far our visitors (well, actually, 1 visitor, that is) have rated it 5 out of 5. Follow this link if you wish to take a vote:

I also wrote a little something quite a while ago trying to encourage my web-log readers to put on a cravat:

If you have not read it before, perhaps you will find it interesting.

Yours,
Mr. Tweed


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