# What did the literary James Bond wear?



## Flyte (Jan 22, 2007)

I have recently taken an interest in the dress sense of the literary James Bond - that is, the James Bond in the 14 Ian Fleming novels which sold 50 million copies and inspired the films. (The films are much less consistent, and much more influenced by advertisers.)

I've come across a few tidbits in my reading, but I'll post only two to get this started:

1. We know Bond didn't like the Windsor knot. He descibes it as 'the mark of a cad'. (Not sure which book this was in.)

2. In _Diamonds Are Forever_, chapter vi, 1st paragraph, we learn a lot.His suitcase contains:
'Evening clothes; his lightweight black and white hound's-tooth for the country and for golf; Saxone golf shoes; a companion to the dark blue tropical worsted suit he was wearing; and some white silk and dark blue short-sleeved Sea Island cotton shirts. Socks and ties, some nylon underwear and two pairs of the long silk pajama coats he wore in place of two-piece pajamas.
None of these things bore, or had ever borne, any name tags or initials.'


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## johnnyblazini (Feb 24, 2006)

Cool post.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

IIRC, in one book Fleming says that Commander Bond always wore black silk-knit ties, to facilitate getting dressed in the dark.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

There's not much to know about his suits, other than they were lightweight and single-breasted. Fleming mentions a few fabrics/patterns, but didn't give many additional details. Bond's tailor, for example, is never named.

Some of my favorite details: Bond sports a Rolex Oyster Perpetual, likes white shirts and slip-on shoes, and smokes 60 cigarettes a day, of a kind specially made for him by Morlands. And he washes his hair with Pinaud Elixir, "that prince among shampoos."

Some relevant links:

https://www.tjbd.co.uk/james-bond-appearance.htm

Kingsley Amis' "James Bond Dossier" has some nice info, too.

Finally, the recipe for "Scrambled Eggs James Bond" Fleming provides in "Thrilling Cities" really is good.


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## shoelovingSwede (Jul 28, 2005)

*A bit off topic but...*

I have always found it intresting how (with the resent switch back to AM cars as an exception) Bond has been degrading.

Fully Bespoke -> Brioni MTM

Rolex->Omega

Dom Perignon->Bollinger

Stolychni (sp.!) -> Finlandia?

If he has remained true to Church shoes that may be seen as a degrading as well. I mean I was almost afraid he would stick to his rental ford in Casino Royale! =) I do not even see him with the Swaine Adeney Attaché case any more...

I am sure there are more examples on how the producer has made sure that all things Bond are more easily bought!


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

In CR, he wore Lobbs, so that's a step up from the Church's.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

There was a book "The book of Bond: Or Every man his own 007" by William Tanner. It is out of print now which gives a breakdown of Bond's choices in every area: food, clothes, drink, travel etc. giving references to each item by book. Required reading by any Bond aficionado.


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## shoelovingSwede (Jul 28, 2005)

*Maybe the tides are turning!*



DocHolliday said:


> In CR, he wore Lobbs, so that's a step up from the Church's.


This i great news Doc! Perhaps those graincorrected leathers put them off!
this togeather with the AMs brings me hope. At least he drinks vintage Bollinger. So even though I own two Omegas: if he drops them he will almost be fully restored...


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## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

I recall in one book he wore a dark navy SB suit, blue and white striped shirt and dark blue knitted tie. 

Bond now comes across as a City bonus boy rather than an English gentleman - perhaps it was ever thus?

I always got the impression that Bond was what was known in the Great War as a 'temporary gentleman'. The latest film hints at this too, so the 'downgrading' to 'designer' clothing etc is merely an accurate reflection of this.


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## satanama (Dec 11, 2003)

*The spy who came out of the closet*

Check this series, The spy who came out of the closet


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## Flyte (Jan 22, 2007)

*Black ties and silk shirts*

I quite like wearing black ties (when I'm not wearing solid navy). I've got one in knit silk which I wear occasionally. There now seems to be a convention that this is for funerals only, which I try to resist. Would your head turn if you saw a man in a black knit silk?

Also, is anyone wearing silk shirts much now? Never had one, but wouldn't mind trying.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

Flyte said:


> some white silk and dark blue *short-sleeved* Sea Island cotton shirts.


Just goes to show that one can't trust Bond's (or Fleming's) taste in everything.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> Just goes to show that one can't trust Bond's (or Fleming's) taste in everything.


Not even the nylon underwear?


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

RJman said:


> Not even the nylon underwear?


The mere thought is so grotesque that various Freudian defense mechanisms deployed themselves so that I didn't conciously recall that part of the original post.:icon_pale:

EDIT: The universe truly has a sense of irony. As I posted this, I noticed Kabbaz's Zimmerli banner at the top of the page!


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## Flyte (Jan 22, 2007)

*short sleeve shirts*

There's a reason for the shirt sleeve shirts on Bond. You may notice Ian Fleming in a jacket never (rarely) shows cuffs. He in fact despised the feel of cuffs under his jacket and always wore short sleeve shirts under his suits.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

He (Fleming's Bond) only shaves once a day, and mocks those who shave a second time before going out in the evening.


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## Pechorin77 (Dec 21, 2006)

Flyte said:


> 1. We know Bond didn't like the Windsor knot. He descibes it as 'the mark of a cad'. (Not sure which book this was in.)


From Russia With Love. When Bond meets Red Grant in Belgrade and Grant is pretending to be a fellow British agent, the line is in Bond's mental assessment of the guy.


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

Flyte said:


> 1. We know Bond didn't like the Windsor knot. He descibes it as 'the mark of a cad'. (Not sure which book this was in.)


That was in From Russia With Love.

I'd heard it said (perhaps here) that there's a reference in OHMSS to his using Floris No89 cologne, but I've flicked through and didn't find it.


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## KCE (Nov 13, 2006)

Flyte said:


> There's a reason for the shirt sleeve shirts on Bond. You may notice Ian Fleming in a jacket never (rarely) shows cuffs. He in fact despised the feel of cuffs under his jacket and always wore short sleeve shirts under his suits.


That's true. I remember reading somewhere that Fleming didn't like the look of dirty cuffs, so he always wore short sleeves. To each his own I guess.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

KCE said:


> That's true. I remember reading somewhere that Fleming didn't like the look of dirty cuffs, so he always wore short sleeves. To each his own I guess.


Casino Royale mentions a dirty shirt cuff, on the SMERSH agent who kills Le Chiffre.

Sigh, why did I get sucked in.


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## JamesT (Oct 12, 2006)

Bond only wore french cuffs with his evening shirts - which were always silk. His suits were solid colour - usually navy. His shirts were usually white. Contrary to what many people believe, his goal was to not stand out in a crowd. This is why the cigarettes he smoked were domestic in whatever country he was in (chesterfields in America...).


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

RJman said:


> Not even the nylon underwear?


Well, at the time nylon didn't have the negative connotations it has today. It was a miracle fibre in the fifties. And Cary Grant was partial to nylon underwear too (ladies' at that).


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## DD MacDonald (Jan 26, 2005)

Not men's sartoria, but I recall a wonderful response that Bond gives Mary Goodnight in the Jamaica office in Flemming's "The Man with the Golden Gun". In response to his dinner invitation, she asks what she should wear to which Bond replies "..something tight in all the right places and not too many buttons".

DDM

(with all caveats for faulty memory, the book is not in front of me)


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## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

In the novel Dr. No, James Bond was relieved of his beloved Beretta .25 caliber automatic with the taped grip and carried in a soft leather holster. "M" had determined that the gun getting caught in its holster had nearly gotten James killed by Rosa Klebb (From Russia With Love). The gun was equipped with a silencer, which made it very cumbersome

"M" had the armorer "Q" assess Bond's physique for a new side arm. "Q's" dismissive comment about the Beretta was that "we can do better than this, sir. Bond's thought brought him back to his first expensive suit. The comment by his tailor was nearly identical to that of "Q", when describing Bond's current wear.

He was faced with new armament - two selections I remember were a S&W Centennial Model (5 shots), or a Walther PPK. He eventually chose the Walther PPK in a Berns-Martin Triple Draw holster. The third may very well have been a Tokarev.


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

pendennis said:


> In the novel Dr. No, James Bond was relieved of his beloved Beretta .25 caliber automatic with the taped grip and carried in a soft leather holster. "M" had determined that the gun getting caught in its holster had nearly gotten James killed by Rosa Klebb (From Russia With Love). The gun was equipped with a silencer, which made it very cumbersome
> 
> "M" had the armorer "Q" assess Bond's physique for a new side arm. "Q's" dismissive comment about the Beretta was that "we can do better than this, sir. Bond's thought brought him back to his first expensive suit. The comment by his tailor was nearly identical to that of "Q", when describing Bond's current wear.
> 
> He was faced with new armament - two selections I remember were a S&W Centennial Model (5 shots), or a Walther PPK. He eventually chose the Walther PPK in a Berns-Martin Triple Draw holster. The third may very well have been a Tokarev.


The Beretta with silencer was caught in his pant waist.

Just finished From Russia with Love. One of my New Years resolutions was to actually read a Flemming Bond book. Funny how when they first came out I was too young and then when I was older they seem too old fashioned.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Great! We got a lot more Bond fans here than I thought :icon_smile:


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

shoelovingSwede said:


> I have always found it intresting how (with the resent switch back to AM cars as an exception) Bond has been degrading.
> 
> Dom Perignon->Bollinger


I beg to differ, Bollinger RD and Vielle Vignes are the equal if not superior of Dom Perignon imho.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Rolex Submariner in the Ian Fleming novels.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> Rolex Submariner in the Ian Fleming novels.


No, no, no. A Rolex Oyster Perpetual on an expanding metal bracelet.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

RJman said:


> No, no, no. A Rolex Oyster Perpetual on an expanding metal bracelet.


This is correct, but an Oyster Perpetual refers to several different types of watches within the Oyster Perpetual line. Fleming never got specific as to which watch it was, but given the period of the 1950's when he wrote, it was probably a Rolex Oyster Perpetual _Explorer_.

In the first few movies it was a Rolex Oyster Perpetual _Submariner_. Today he would probably wear a _Sumbariner Date_, which is what I own.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I must have been thinking of all those Connery Bond movies. It seems reasonable that Fleming may have had the Submariner in mind given its history but he does not specify the exact Rolex model.

Here's the full story:


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> I must have been thinking of all those Connery Bond movies. It seems reasonable that Fleming may have had the Submariner in mind given its history but he does not specify the exact Rolex model.
> 
> Here's the full story:


Those are pictures of fake Rolexes. Probably Bangkok specials.


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## Flashy (Mar 15, 2006)

*Thunderball*

When Bond meets Domino at the tobacconist in Nsssau, "He was wearing a very dark blue lightweight single-breasted suit over a cream silk shirt and a black knitted silk tie. Despite the heat, he looked cool and clean, and his only concssion to the tropics appeared to be the black saddle-stiched sandals on his bare feet". (Thunberball, Punguin, p 113).

Later in the book, at the casino, Bond wears a white dinner jacket with a red cummerbund.

Cheers, 
Flashy


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Those are pictures of fake Rolexes. Probably Bangkok specials.


How do you know?


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> How do you know?


First clue is that they are on straps. But the true tell is on the Submariner (the watch on the right). The Submariner, and all Oyster Perpetuals, has a solid case. Look at the picture and you can see on the lug that the rod retaining the strap is sticking thru the lug (the watch on the right, lower left-hand lug). This would never be the case on a real Submariner.

Nevertheless, AJB is a great website. *Bill Tanner* there has written some great articles.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> First clue is that they are on straps.


I don't know...the movie Rolexes were often shown with a NATO strap like the one on the right.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

It's hard to tell, early Submariners had visible holes which they may be. My 1986 DJ has visible holes, newer models do not have that on the oyster case.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> I don't know...the movie Rolexes were often shown with a NATO strap like the one on the right.





Artisan Fan said:


> It's hard to tell, early Submariners had visible holes which they may be. My 1986 DJ has visible holes, newer models do not have that on the oyster case.


Hmmm. I could be wrong. My understanding is that the cases were always solid. Also, always that the Subs had the steel bracelet only. NATO straps on other models. Do you post at TimeZone.com? Could ask there. There's a few Bond fans there too, both in Omega and Rolex sub-forums.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

*From the Book of Bond*

Your basic outfits are as follows:

Standard: Dark blue suit of serge or tropical M 3/DAF6
worsted or alpaca according to the climate. Dark TSWLM 10/M 3
blue socks. Black moccasin shoes. (you hate shoe M 3/OHMSS 2
laces.) Heavy silk shirt. Black knitted silk tie. M 3/DN 4

Evening: Single breasted dinner jacket, heavy CR 8
silk shirt, thin double ended black satin tie.

Informal: Trousers as standard, Sea Island OHMSS 2
cotton shirt in white or dark blue, black casual DAF 6/OHMSS 2
shoes or sandals

With all the above wear underclothes of nylon DAF 6
or Sea Island cotton TMWTGG 7

Shoes: with concealed compartment were then 1965 available from Tuczek of Clifford Street at £30 a pair.


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## shoelovingSwede (Jul 28, 2005)

*You are right in one way.*



CCabot said:


> I beg to differ, Bollinger RD and Vielle Vignes are the equal if not superior of Dom Perignon imho.


Bollinger RD could absolutely rival the Dom Perignon. But and this is a but.

In Bonds Dom Perignon days of Bond he always chosed the vintage with great precision. He might do the sam with the Bollinger RD.

The switch to Bollinger makes the Bond champagne more buyable (you could always buy non vintage Bollinger, one of my fav. but that is an other thing) Wherelst you do not have a Dom Perignon junior, they are all vintage quality. (if you do not count the moet & chandon and that I do not do.)

But sure I would think that a good Bollinger RD could be superior to a good Dom Perignon. But I think the switch to Bollinger RD has generated more sales of non vintage Bollinger then RD. And that was the reason behind the switch.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

*Fro the Book of Bond*

"Any well known marque is reliable: Clicquot, Dom Perignon, Krug, Pommery, Tattinger. CR 14/ M 5/ OHMSS 3/ G 2/ OHMSS 2
It's best to buy one about 10 years old. ..........
Be independant too, scorning the highbrow interdiction to pink champagne - Cilcquot rose is agood one T 15/ FYEO 1
or pour benzedrine powder into your Dom Pirignon M 5"


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## andrei67 (Dec 7, 2004)

LondonFogey said:


> I always got the impression that Bond was what was known in the Great War as a 'temporary gentleman'.


Can you elaborate on the inner meaning jf the term?


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

Martinis at 8 said:


> He (Fleming's Bond) only shaves once a day, and mocks those who shave a second time before going out in the evening.


I didn't know that. But it certainly accords with the view of a Gentleman in the Foreword to Roetzel's book 'A Gentleman takes care that he leaves his house, flat chambers or club splendidly attired for the whole day....'


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## gordy (Jan 12, 2007)

shoelovingSwede said:


> I have always found it intresting how (with the resent switch back to AM cars as an exception) Bond has been degrading.


When I first read that, I was trying to figure out why you'd be impressed with Bond driving a Pacer or Gremlin from the infamous American Motors Corp, but then realized you were talking about a different car maker on the other side of the pond.


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## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

andrei67 said:


> Can you elaborate on the inner meaning jf the term?


Before the First World War officers in the British Army were upper crust folks only, a holdover from the days of purchased commissions. However, after the BEF crossed the channel and was promptly decimated by Krupps and knock-off Maxims, the British Army expanded to the point at which the aristocracy couldn't supply the high numbers of new officers. In need of a new source of bodies, upper-middle class guys (the sons of businessmen and the like) were commissioned in greatly expanded numbers. These new officers held commissions like all the others but were still not on the same social as their priors. Ergo, temporary gentlemen were men, still of good families, not of the right families.


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## jml90 (Dec 7, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> Hmmm. I could be wrong. My understanding is that the cases were always solid. Also, always that the Subs had the steel bracelet only. NATO straps on other models. Do you post at TimeZone.com? Could ask there. There's a few Bond fans there too, both in Omega and Rolex sub-forums.


You realiZe the band could be taken off, no?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> My understanding is that the cases were always solid.


It's a new development lately which happened in the 90s. The Rolex Report by Jon Brozek details this.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

jml90 said:


> You realize the band could be taken off, no?


Yes, of course.



Artisan Fan said:


> It's a new development lately which happened in the 90s. The Rolex Report by Jon Brozek details this.


Okay, thanks. Learn something new about these everyday. Now for that Walther PPK I was looking at :icon_smile_big:


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## smlaz (May 13, 2005)

shoelovingSwede said:


> I have always found it intresting how (with the resent switch back to AM cars as an exception) Bond has been degrading.
> 
> Fully Bespoke -> Brioni MTM
> 
> ...


Methinks ShoelovingSwede is too bowled over by the advertisers. While Rolex is a good watch, and durable, the Omega movements are now, and have always been, well designed, well manufactured, and their timepieces durable, beautiful, and accurate. Not to take away from Rolex, but IMHO they advertise a helluva lot, sell more watches than anyone except Seiko and Citizen, and are more a status symbol than anything else. So there.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Not to take away from Rolex, but IMHO they advertise a helluva lot, sell more watches than anyone except Seiko and Citizen, and are more a status symbol than anything else. So there.


Just because Rolex sells many watches and has a large advertising budget does not equate to low quality.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

smlaz said:


> ...Not to take away from Rolex, but IMHO they advertise a helluva lot, sell more watches than anyone except Seiko and Citizen, and are more a status symbol than anything else. So there.


Waahhh! Mommmy! He hurt my feelings


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## smlaz (May 13, 2005)

Artisan Fan, I in no way implied that Rolex is a low quality timepiece. They just sell over half a million watches a year. Seiko, by the way, has a handmade series called Grand Seiko that is as robust and beautiful as any Rolex. As well, they have a couple other series that are quite high quality automatic movement watches.


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## smlaz (May 13, 2005)

OK Martinis at 8. I apologize for hurting your feelings. How insensitive of me. Will you ever forgive me? Pleeeeease (getting down on one knee, hands clasped in front of chest, hoping for absolution)?


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Good evening chaps. For more info on Bond attire, I suggest you acquire a copy of *Dressed to Kill: James Bond The Suited Hero*, by Jay McInerney, Nick Foulkes, Neil Norman, and Nick Sullivan (Paris-New York: Flammarion, 1996). You will enjoy the numerous photos and illustrations.

The chapter by Foulkes is especially instructive [also check out Foulkes's book on Count d'Orsay]. Apparently Bond's 'usual rig' was a 'dark-blue single-breasted suit, white shirt, thin black knitted silk tie, black casuals' (loafers?).

In _Moonraker_, Bond is wearing 'a heavy white silk shirt, dark blue trousers of navy serge, dark blue socks and well polished moccasin shoes' [!]. In the other novels he sports a black-and-white houndstooth suit, dark blue sea-island cotton shirt, black leather sandals [!!!], navy blue tropical worsted wool trousers, black windbreaker, thin black satin ties, single-breasted dinner jackets, heavy silk evening shirts, etc.


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## andrei67 (Dec 7, 2004)

Desk Jockey said:


> Ergo, temporary gentlemen were men, still of good families, not of the right families.


Thank you for the explanation (i do like that last passage))
I'd also vouch for the DRESSED TO KILL book - elegant reading and feat to the eye.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

If I remember rightly, in CR, the girl disparagingly supposes Bond is wearing a Rolex (how common!), and is corrected by Bond, "Omeeega". I'm not sure what the subtext is here, or even if I heard right, but I'm not sure Bond is downgrading - just updating, maybe? Rolex a bit too obvious?


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Old Brompton said:


> Good evening chaps. For more info on Bond attire, I suggest you acquire a copy of *Dressed to Kill: James Bond The Suited Hero*, by Jay McInerney, Nick Foulkes, Neil Norman, and Nick Sullivan (Paris-New York: Flammarion, 1996). You will enjoy the numerous photos and illustrations.


Already quite a rare collector's item, unfortunately (or fortunately for those who bought it when it came out).


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

smlaz said:


> OK Martinis at 8. I apologize for hurting your feelings. How insensitive of me. Will you ever forgive me? Pleeeeease (getting down on one knee, hands clasped in front of chest, hoping for absolution)?


Hee-hee. Actually the Grand Seiko was one of the other automatic movement watches I was considering. I found out about them while researching the Kinetic and Spring Drive lines. I have not been able to understand why Seiko has not advertised this line a bit more in the US. The line is well known outside of the US as an extraordinary mechanical.

Sinn watches (Frankfurt, Germany) also offer very good Rolex-like quality mechanicals. Still, not much known here in the US. Go figure.


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

I have two questions, one off-topic and one on:

1) Aside from buying a hundred of any particular watch and seeing how they run, how does ANYONE judge the quality of a particular watch, for example, Seiko Grand or Rolex or Omega? I mean, one can crack it open and admire "the finish," which for these sport brands is not an issue, but besides that. I always think people are just recycling and repeating marketing. Sinn too. Suits, shoes, etc I can examine myself, but watches are a mystery. And if you say "by reading what people I trust, write" you will have proved my point. I trust jcusey on shoes or AK on shirts for example, but I would not buy a shoe or shirt because they said to, I would look at their recs because they said to.

2) Can anyone expand this topic to include all things Bond in the novels, for instance brand choices on soap, toothpaste, etc?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Aside from buying a hundred of any particular watch and seeing how they run, how does ANYONE judge the quality of a particular watch, for example, Seiko Grand or Rolex or Omega?


There are established processes. Watch Time magazine awards a 100 point score based on a watch expert judging the following areas:
Strap and clasp (10 points)
Operation (5 points)
Case (10 points)
Design (15 points)
Legibility (5 points)
Wearing Comfort (10 points)
Movement (20 points)
Rate Results (10 points)
Overall Value (15 points)

They test the accuracy, take into consideration reliability and reputation, and judge the innovations and quality of parts in the movement.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

*from Book of Bond*



David Bresch said:


> 2) Can anyone expand this topic to include all things Bond in the novels, for instance brand choices on soap, toothpaste, etc?


Brands-
Bourbon: Old Grand-dad, I W Harpers, Walker's de luxe, Jack Daniels.
Gin: Beefeater or Gordons.
Vodka: Stolichnaya or Wolfschmidt.
Cocktails: Old-Fashioned, Vodka Martini, Vesper, Negroni,Americano.
Cigarettes: from Morlands of Grosvenor Street, Senior Service, Chesterfield, Laurens jaune, Royal Blend, Shinsei, Diplomates with Ronson lighter.
Golf: Royal St Mark's at Sandwich.
Skiing: St Anton
Restaurants/Hotels: You like station hotels 
Paris - Grand Vefour, Lucas Carton, Cochon d'Or, Cafe de Paix, Harrys Bar, Fouquets.
Venice - Gritti Palace, Harrys Bar.
New York - St Regis, Astor, Voisins, 21 Club


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Nice list Culverwood.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> There are established processes. Watch Time magazine awards a 100 point score based on a watch expert judging the following areas:
> Strap and clasp (10 points)
> Operation (5 points)
> Case (10 points)
> ...


Everything above is correct. In addition I might add resale value and heirloom prospects. One can see 50-yr old Rolex watches being sold for high prices and still being worn, as accurate as ever (such is not the case with most other brands). This only happens with very high quality watches.


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

This is slightly off subject, but Fleming described Bond as being 6-2, 167 pounds. Wouldn't that give him a pretty scrawny build?

Was that the height and weight of Fleming himself?


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

The longevity of an expensive watch does not mean too much since this is probably an artifact of the effort people put into maintaining expensive watches. No one is going to peform an expensive repair on a Timex, for example. Most of the criteria you listed seem pretty silly (eg operation, legibility) and would hardly differentiate my Mickey Mouse watch from my Rolex. And checking accuracy, at least in the context of chronomoters, which undergo their own independent certification, is superfluous.

So far as Bond brands, Pinaud Elixir shampoo, and please keep them coming.


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

AMVanquish said:


> This is slightly off subject, but Fleming described Bond as being 6-2, 167 pounds. Wouldn't that give him a pretty scrawny build?
> 
> Was that the height and weight of Fleming himself?


people were generally slimmer then - look at edward fox in the day of the jackel - and at about 12stone he would have been in the super middle weight class in boxing - so you tell roy jones jr he is scrawny!


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

David Bresch said:


> The longevity of an expensive watch does not mean too much since this is probably an artifact of the effort people put into maintaining expensive watches...


Heirloom Rolex watches sold for about a hundred dollars in their day.

Are you a horologist or have any background whatsoever in horology?


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## Flashy (Mar 15, 2006)

According to the SMERSH dossier in FRWL, Bond's height was 183cm ( 6 ft even) and 76kg (167.5 lbs).

For Bon'ds drinking habits, check out Make Mine a 007 at https://007.atomicmartinis.com/

Cheers
Flashy


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Not one bit. But unless I can see it and touch it, I am very cynical. And do not trust anything I cannot understand, particularly where this is supposed to part me from my money.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Most of the criteria you listed seem pretty silly (eg operation, legibility) and would hardly differentiate my Mickey Mouse watch from my Rolex. And checking accuracy, at least in the context of chronomoters, which undergo their own independent certification, is superfluous.


David, I'm starting to think you are not very experienced with fine watches. If you were you would know that many expensive watches do not keep accuracy or remain easy to maintain. Even vaunted Pateks can be fussy to keep running. Patek collectors love to tell stories about this.

If you don't want to spend money on a fine watch then that's your choice but to attack well established criteria without knowing the meaning of the categories is not adding value to the discussion.


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*The watch remark in CR...*

Vesper asked Bond if he was wearing a sport Rolex, on a metal bracelet, like an SAS kind. Bond corrects her. Well, adventureous fellows always liked sport watches.

Also, she described him like a man who went to a public school and univeristy and the whole clothes bit and class ...

Maybe this would be a connection with the temporary gentlemen ?

Andrey


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Khnelben said:


> Vesper asked Bond if he was wearing a sport Rolex, on a metal bracelet, like an SAS kind. Bond corrects her. Well, adventureous fellows always liked sport watches.
> 
> Also, she described him like a man who went to a public school and univeristy and the whole clothes bit and class ...
> 
> ...


I can't remember the dialogue, but yes, it was meant to identify Bond's social class affiliations. Only a Brit would be able to explain the subtleties here.


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Well Artisan Fan, the value of what I write is worth exactly what you paid for it...nothing. To say I am "not very experienced" would be overstating the knowledge I have. But I am sure that my criticisms are well-placed because as soon as an argument degenerates to the ad hominem and generalities like "well-established criteria," there is no substance to be found. And this applies to your trying to explain the value in an expensive watch, or a contracter trying to make me part with $5000 more of my money, for example.

I am sure you argumentative folk would immediately object that the item may have value to only a select group of connoisseurs who can understand it, but the vast majority of expensive watches are being marketed to middle class people who know nothing about watches, like myself. And even amongst the cogniscenti, I would find peculiar to learn that they are really impressed after centuries of watchmaking by anything other than a complication, which is an even smaller fraction of the watches sold. That old watches have any value at all shows they are collectable. And there is nothing wrong with that. But I may not want to pay for that type of value.

The only things that mattered to me when I bought my watch (besides its appearance) was its potential durability and accuracy. I suspect that there are VERY few people who care about any other criteria than these (except maybe marketing qua snob appeal), and of those who do, only a fraction of them will have the wherewithal to look inside their watch to appreciate its "finish" or "design."

This reminds me of a TRUE story: I purchased a stereo years ago and it had a button marked "boost" or something like that. I called the service center to ask what the button stood for (I was a mediocre medical student at the time) and I remember the guy on the phone berating me that didn't I know how to read it was obvious that the button "boosts" the sound. I hope, in any event, I did not pay extra for that damn button.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

So David, do you buy your suits at Wal-Mart, Target, or Men's Warehouse? The arguments you make regarding wristwatches can be applied equally to suits, when we are talking about the masses. It takes an education. In fact I was in Jos Banks the other day and had to explain to one of the sales agents what a floating canvas suit is.

Nevertheless I agree with your earlier comment about not parting with your money regarding things you can't see or understand. I am pretty much the same way, which is why I spent a lot of time researching watches. Now I am researching sport cars, like Porsche (if you have followed some of my threads here at AAAC).

Your other comment about middle class marketing for watches like Rolex... Last year some time I was in watch store and a married couple in the store wanted his and hers matching Rolexes. I found this amusing but was floored when they talked about financing for these, which the store would grant. I am dumbfounded that people would go into debt for something like this.

I consider this discretionary spending, and therefore pay cash, but then I don't go into debt for anything. Discretionary or not.

M8


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I suspect that there are VERY few people who care about any other criteria than these (except maybe marketing qua snob appeal)


So what? Very few people care about handwork in suits but the members here love the extra quality, durability and style from such craftsmanship.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> So what? Very few people care about handwork in suits but the members here love the extra quality, durability and style from such *craftsmanship*.


Shouldn't that be *artisanry*? Come to think of it, my dad's a Craftsman Fan. He's quite handy.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

RJman said:


> ...Come to think of it, my dad's a Craftsman Fan...


So am I. Those tools are great and carry a lifetime guarantee. I buy my tools at Sears, not my suits.


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## smlaz (May 13, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> So am I. Those tools are great and carry a lifetime guarantee. I buy my tools at Sears, not my suits.


What, haven't you seen the Craftsman suits? Sturdy, made to last, lifetime guarantee, and look great with grease and/or rust...


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> So what? Very few people care about handwork in suits but the members here love the extra quality, durability and style from such craftsmanship.


whether it is there or not...:devil::devil::devil:


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

Khnelben said:


> Vesper asked Bond if he was wearing a sport Rolex, on a metal bracelet, like an SAS kind. Bond corrects her. Well, adventureous fellows always liked sport watches.
> 
> Also, she described him like a man who went to a public school and univeristy and the whole clothes bit and class ...
> 
> ...


I tought that Vesper asked the question in the movie, so Bond can reverse the fact: from what he wore in the book(s) to the sponsored answer Omega.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

smlaz said:


> What, haven't you seen the Craftsman suits? Sturdy, made to last, lifetime guarantee, and look great with grease and/or rust...


Uh, I'll take one of those with some steel-toe shoes, please.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

When in an Omega showroom the other day the woman mentioned that all the watches in Casino Royale had been sponsored by Omega's parent and the goodies and baddies all wear different brands as suitable from the group's stable of watch companies.


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*Everyone indeed wears them...*

if you look at the croupier, he wears a Schumaher Speedy, red.

I am not sure what the main baddie wears..

Andrey


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> When in an Omega showroom the other day the woman mentioned that all the watches in Casino Royale had been sponsored by Omega's parent and the goodies and baddies all wear different brands as suitable from the group's stable of watch companies.


Yes, Omega paid a lot for the marketing rights. They make a good watch but the current 007 edition Seamaster is quite cheesy.


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## nicksull (Sep 1, 2005)

*TELL ME ABOUT IT*



Rich said:


> Already quite a rare collector's item, unfortunately (or fortunately for those who bought it when it came out).


I know. Foulkesy and i only got one copy each ourselves!


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

nicksull said:


> I know. Foulkesy and i only got one copy each ourselves!


I got two copies for a birthday and returned one. Looking back, I shouldn't have. Sigh.

Sorry about the Jack comment, BTW... :devil:


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## nicksull (Sep 1, 2005)

No worries


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

All the things about clothing we learn about and discuss here can be easily seen and appreciated, not so with a watch, most of whose value lies in the movement, which is always hidden. And has there ever been an argument here about a real item's quality (not hypothetical, like "a Brioni," real like "THIS Brioni")? I think people have gone back and forth whether things are worth it (AK shirts -- poor AK!) or whether things are possible ("COULD MTM be as good as bespoke") but other than that, because "the good" is so accessible in sartorial matters, there has not been too much disagreement.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> All the things about clothing we learn about and discuss here can be easily seen and appreciated, not so with a watch, most of whose value lies in the movement, which is always hidden.


Not true. Many boutique watches have exhibition backs and sometimes fronts. Watch magazines have a load of movement pics and detailed descriptions of any new technology and design enhancements. There is an owner satisfaction from knowing something about the craftsmanship of things well made.

In a lot of handmade suits, the best handwork is hidden from view as well. Look at the Kiton shoulder or the inner Oxxford lapel.



> And has there ever been an argument here about a real item's quality


LOL. All the time!


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

David Bresch said:


> All the things about clothing we learn about and discuss here can be easily seen and appreciated, not so with a watch, most of whose value lies in the movement, which is always hidden. And has there ever been an argument here about a real item's quality (not hypothetical, like "a Brioni," real like "THIS Brioni")? I think people have gone back and forth whether things are worth it (AK shirts -- poor AK!) or whether things are possible ("COULD MTM be as good as bespoke") but other than that, because "the good" is so accessible in sartorial matters, there has not been too much disagreement.


Okay, you made more point.

Next!


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## Ash Newman (Oct 3, 2011)

Rich said:


> Well, at the time nylon didn't have the negative connotations it has today. It was a miracle fibre in the fifties. And Cary Grant was partial to nylon underwear too (ladies' at that).


I think nylon underpants were the 1950s precursor to the "travel underwear" of today. A quick wash in the hand basin and they're dry for next day.


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## Ash Newman (Oct 3, 2011)

shoelovingSwede said:


> I have always found it intresting how (with the resent switch back to AM cars as an exception) Bond has been degrading.
> 
> Fully Bespoke -> Brioni MTM
> 
> ...


The shift away from British cars was long overdue. All those gadgets & accessories in cars with a Lucas electrical system?? Forget it.

As for the attaché case, the concealed throwing knife and AR-7 rifle were a real bugger with airport security.

As for the other stuff; The 1970s was a time when the UK became (pretty much) a third world country. Quite frankly, it's a wonder Moore's charachter wasn't wearing a Timex, driving an ejector seat-equiped BMC landcrab, staying at the YMCA and drinking Pepsi when on assignment.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

This thread was dead for four years when you replied to it. Silly newbie, Trix are for kids! :icon_smile_wink:


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## Ash Newman (Oct 3, 2011)

Jovan said:


> This thread was dead for four years when you replied to it. Silly newbie, Trix are for kids! :icon_smile_wink:


Sorry.................but who can resist a JB thread?


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