# 6 month old boots. Sole coming away from welt.



## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Just noticed last night that the sole is coming away from the welt on a pair of boots I bought last August. Not even 6 months old.
The stitching has worn away and the sole is loose. This is on the right boot. The left isn't that bad yet but is showing similar wear.
They are worn probably 3 or 4 times a week, regularly polished and cared for.

Bought them from a well known, mainly online retailer, with a very good reputation.
Admittedly, these boots were sold as "seconds" and I got a great discount, but really don't expect them to fall apart.

Do I have a case to complain about it, or do seconds come with no warranty at all?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

You've worn them too much, with not enough rest, shoe polish and water proofing spray in between. 

Either that, or they weren't very good quality to begin with. Who made them?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Odradek said:


> .
> 
> Do I have a case to complain about it, or do seconds come with no warranty at all?


A picture of the sole would help


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Typically, factory seconds are sold with the understanding that any flaws are cosmetic and do not affect the performance of the shoe. You should contact he manufacturer. Good year welts use a lockstitch to attach the outsole and the wearing away of a few stitches shouldn't cause the seam to unravel like it did.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> You've worn them too much, with not enough rest, shoe polish and water proofing spray in between.
> 
> Either that, or they weren't very good quality to begin with. Who made them?


I've worn them about 3 days out of every 7. 
I try not to wear them 2 days in a row.
I polish them regularly and use shoe trees.



hardline_42 said:


> Typically, factory seconds are sold with the understanding that any flaws are cosmetic and do not affect the performance of the shoe. You should contact he manufacturer. Good year welts use a lockstitch to attach the outsole and the wearing away of a few stitches shouldn't cause the seam to unravel like it did.


I bought them as seconds, and couldn't find any flaws on them.
I'll contact the retailer, Herring Shoes, next week.
They are Herring Burgh boots, manufactured by Loake, I think.
Herring are noted as being a good company to deal with and I've never had a problem with them.

Here's a picture of the sole, where the stitching has disappeared.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Odradek said:


> I've worn them about 3 days out of every 7.
> I try not to wear them 2 days in a row.
> I polish them regularly and use shoe trees.
> They are Herring Burgh boots, manufactured by Loake, I think.
> ...


The sole is going to come apart (as it has) on a sewn shoe with the amount of wear that you are showing. Do you have other shoes of similar construction?
A picture of the full soles (both shoes) would be helpful.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

3 days in 7 is a tad too much, and the sole seems to have worn down. I suppose the sole quality may be low as well. What line of Loake are those?

It looks like wear rather than a manufacturing error. 

If you go through that much leather I'd maybe add a thin rubber sole to the next pair. If the upper is good on this pair you could resole, though it probably wont be worth it.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> 3 days in 7 is a tad too much, and the sole seems to have worn down. I suppose the sole quality may be low as well. What line of Loake are those?
> 
> It looks like wear rather than a manufacturing error.
> 
> If you go through that much leather I'd maybe add a thin rubber sole to the next pair. If the upper is good on this pair you could resole, though it probably wont be worth it.


In fairness, and I'm not trying to be snide here, in the real world many of us don't have the luxury of a new pair of Edward Green's to wear every day.
I've currently own 6 pairs of good shoes, more shoes than my wife has, and I wear 4 pairs regularly.

The shoes aren't Loake, though they are made in the Loake factory. They're Herring Burgh boots, made by Loake to Herring specs.
Herring shoes are manufactured by Loake, Barker and Cheaney.
I think the boots in question are pretty good quality and I've had many positive comments about them. 
This guy likes them.

The uppers are good. The boots are only 6 months old and have been looked after. I certainly had planned on getting them resoled at some point, as I intend keeping them for years. 
And it will be well worth it.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Good point. Then resole them. Consider putting some thin rubber soles on. 

I've had a pair of Loakes, and I was happy with them. It looks like you've worn the soles out.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I'd be disappointed also if they were mine, but you have worn them quite a bit by wearing them, on average, every other day. They are well worn, which is a product of how often you wear them, how hard you are on footwear (I.e., lots of Walking? Big man? Vigorous?) and the innate durability of the sole leather and stitching. You didn't mention if you use trees. Believe it or not, using trees will also help add longevity to even sole wear because it helps shoes better maintain their shape. I did not learn this from reading it somewhere, I learned it from experience. You also mentioned you have 6 pairs of good shoes, if I were you; I'd try to give the boots a bit more rest between wearings than every other day.

I think they're very nice boots and a good buy at Herring's price. But at that price, you're not going to get the *very *best of materials, although I think you got good quality for the money. When you have them resoled, you might wish to invest in premium outer soles, or even slightly thicker ones, if a main objective is to add durability.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Flanderian said:


> I'd be disappointed also if they were mine, but you have worn them quite a bit by wearing them, on average, every other day. They are well worn, which is a product of how often you wear them, how hard you are on footwear (I.e., lots of Walking? Big man? Vigorous?) and the innate durability of the sole leather and stitching. You didn't mention if you use trees. Believe it or not, using trees will also help add longevity to even sole wear because it helps shoes better maintain their shape. I did not learn this from reading it somewhere, I learned it from experience. You also mentioned you have 6 pairs of good shoes, if I were you; I'd try to give the boots a bit more rest between wearings than every other day.
> 
> I think they're very nice boots and a good buy at Herring's price. But at that price, you're not going to get the *very *best of materials, although I think you got good quality for the money. When you have them resoled, you might wish to invest in premium outer soles, or even slightly thicker ones, if a main objective is to add durability.


5' 8", 12 stone, not a huge amount of walking lately, mostly driving.
Have used shoe trees with them.
I'd expect a pair of shoes to last at least a year or more before a new sole was needed.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Odradek said:


> 5' 8", 12 stone, not a huge amount of walking lately, mostly driving.
> Have used shoe trees with them.
> I'd expect a pair of shoes to last at least a year or more before a new sole was needed.


Yes, I think a bit more wear was to be hoped for. Probably not the best soles.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

They are worn. That is not the shoes' fault. While the soles might not have been of the toughest leather, I see no sign of manufacturing defect. (Rendenbach soles are much tougher, for instance, but they come at quite a price premium, and are found only on more expensive shoes. These boots of yours are priced extremely affordably for what they are.)

I would agree with others that three wearings per seven days is excessive. Your plea that you're no Imelda is fine, as long as you accept that having your shoes wear out more quickly is part of not giving then more rest.

Also, though you say you've put them on trees, it appears that they have not been put on trees as soon as, and every time they've come off your feet. Nor do they appear to have had regular polishing and conditioning. The leather looks quite dry, and the surface shows scuffs. This is not to criticize you or your shoe care abilities, but to suggest that what you may see as adequate might be less than what is required to maintain shoes in top condition. 

Rather than taking issue with the manufacturer, I believe you'd most benefit from having those boots resoled by a competent cobbler, stepping up your shoe care regimen, and making more regular use of shoe trees.


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## catside (Oct 7, 2010)

Regardless of wear and care, this should not have happened in 6 months. I would send an email to Herring with pictures.


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## BBQ King (Nov 4, 2011)

It is worth a call or an e-mail to the seller. 
It is after all a boot. Even an english boot should hold up over 6 months :icon_smile_wink: 

As suggested I have added "toppys" or half soles or cat paws, etc....to a pair of boots and it significantly protects the boot. And these were of a more dressy italian style.

Now that I have played the role of typical american and insulted the english and italians, I will go back to planning my Super Bowl feast.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Rendenbach soles are much tougher


Perhaps the OP may wish to specify them when he gets the boots resoled. I know some better cobblers in the U.S. have them available, and I'm sure that must also be true in the UK.


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

I would definitely contact the manufacturer. I wouldn't start complaining, but I would ask their advice first on how often the shoes should be worn and how long they are expected to last. I would have hoped they would have lasted longer. I'll also second the advice to get some sort of Topy or thin rubber half-sole applied. It definitely increases the longevity of the sole. I get the feeling some folks wear their shoes once per week and have them re-soled every 100 wearings. That wouldn't cut it for me.

Andy B.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

I've worn holes through leather soles straight to the cork on several pairs of shoes and the welt stitching has never given that way. The visible portion of sole in the OP's photo looks like it's got plenty of meat on it and the shoes have double soles to boot. I'm skeptical that this is a simple case of worn shoes.


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## the shoe guy (Dec 7, 2011)

Have the soles replace with JR leather soles, very expensive but worth it. High end shoe repair shops carry JR leather.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> I've worn holes through leather soles straight to the cork on several pairs of shoes and the welt stitching has never given that way. The visible portion of sole in the OP's photo looks like it's got plenty of meat on it and the shoes have double soles to boot. I'm skeptical that this is a simple case of worn shoes.


I have this experience as well, however, these Loakes are quite inexpensive and will not hold up as well as better shoes.

Cheap Goodyear welted shoes often require a thin rubber sole to hold up. Not all soles are created equal.

Perhaps herring will give a complimentary repair, since it's only been 6 months.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> I have this experience as well, however, these Loakes are quite inexpensive and will not hold up as well as better shoes.
> 
> Cheap Goodyear welted shoes often require a thin rubber sole to hold up. Not all soles are created equal.
> 
> Perhaps herring will give a complimentary repair, since it's only been 6 months.


Correct, the stitching is the only thing holding the shoe together (it's a mechanical fastener) once the fastener is gone the shoe falls apart.
Depending on the shoe and how you walk/wear the the soles you can wear a hole in the center of the sole and not degrade he stitching to the point of shoe coming apart. In this case the stitching is getting worn to the point that it cant do it's job.
It would still be interesting to see some more pictures of the soles, is the stitching in a channel for protection? Or just sewn on flat leather?


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

mrp said:


> It would still be interesting to see some more pictures of the soles, is the stitching in a channel for protection? Or just sewn on flat leather?


The soles are channeled.

It would appear the OP may walk with an uneven gait. Not enough of the sole shows in his photo, however it is severely worn on the inside edge, in the area of the stitching, and appears to perhaps be less worn toward the middle. At the stitching it is worn past the channel and through the stitching, to the point where it appears to be almost paper thin.

While the soles may be of less durable leather than some other shoes, this is to be somewhat expected of relatively inexpensive shoes. And uneven wear is of course not the fault of the shoes. (Nor may it be anyone's "fault," for that matter. If one scuffs while walking, that can be addressed to some extent, however one's gait is a factor of physical morphology and years of habit, neither of which may be easy to counter.)

And, I again have to say that those shoes appear to have received considerably less than optimal care.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> The soles are channeled.
> It would appear the OP may walk with an uneven gait. Not enough of the sole shows in his photo, however it is severely worn on the inside edge, in the area of the stitching, and appears to perhaps be less worn toward the middle. At the stitching it is worn past the channel and through the stitching, to the point where it appears to be almost paper thin.
> 
> While the soles may be of less durable leather than some other shoes, this is to be somewhat expected of relatively inexpensive shoes. And uneven wear is of course not the fault of the shoes. (Nor may it be anyone's "fault," for that matter. If one scuffs while walking, that can be addressed to some extent, however one's gait is a factor of physical morphology and years of habit, neither of which may be easy to counter.)
> ...


So now I walk with "an uneven gait" and don't take care of my shoes?
I can assure you, there are shoe trees in these boots when ever I'm not wearing them. 
I wear them about 3 days a week and they're polished regularly.

I don't have any uneven gait. The soles are worn on both the inside and outside edge. On examining the heels, they are also quite worn, I think the heel leather is worn down more than the rubber on the back of the heel, which seems to be the opposite of how it should be.

Now at £175, I would not call these inexpensive shoes. I know it's all relative, but they're not cheap shoes. I get the impression that many posters here only walk from their cars to carpeted offices and back again, and have a different pair of £500 shoes for every day of the week. Or maybe just buy shoes to put them on a shelf and admire them.
I don't walk as much as I used to. Circumstances have me taking the car more often lately, but I'm still am out on a mixture of city streets and country roads most days.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Odradek said:


> So now I walk with "an uneven gait" and don't take care of my shoes?
> I can assure you, there are shoe trees in these boots when ever I'm not wearing them.
> I wear them about 3 days a week and they're polished regularly.
> 
> ...


Not to read CB13's mind, but I don't think he intended offense. We *all* walk differently, and how we walk helps determine the wear pattern on the soles.

If you do a substantial amount of walking and wear your boots every other day, that *is* quite a bit of mileage.

No, 175 PS is not cheap. It's middle priced. Your boots look as if they could cost a good deal more. But they don't, and slightly less than the best materials is to be expected. If you want soles that are going last longer, top quality leather will, or adding a rubber coating, or even adding rubber soles such as Dainite, which would not be entirely out of character with your boots.

I wouldn't be pleased either if I were you. But I'd also realize what I just stated. Some soles will last longer for a variety of reasons, some less. As has been suggested, Herring has a good reputation. I'd discuss your unhappiness with them, and perhaps they will give you a credit toward having the boots resoled with a sole of your choice. I think that's about the best you can do.


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## the shoe guy (Dec 7, 2011)

Flanderian said:


> Not to read CB13's mind, but I don't think he intended offense. We *all* walk differently, and how we walk helps determine the wear pattern on the soles.
> 
> If you do a substantial amount of walking and wear your boots every other day, that *is* quite a bit of mileage.
> 
> ...


Agreed!


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Flanderian said:


> I wouldn't be pleased either if I were you. But I'd also realize what I just stated. Some soles will last longer for a variety of reasons, some less. As has been suggested, Herring has a good reputation. I'd discuss your unhappiness with them, and perhaps they will give you a credit toward having the boots resoled with a sole of your choice. I think that's about the best you can do.


Herring has a good reputation,and I've had nothing but good to say about them. 
Adrian Herring gave me 50% off one of his valet boxes last year.
I'll drop them a line tomorrow.

BTW, it's not that I'm madly unhappy, just surprised at the amount of wear so quickly.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Odradek said:


> I don't have any uneven gait. The soles are worn on both the inside and outside edge. On examining the heels, they are also quite worn, I think the heel leather is worn down more than the rubber on the back of the heel, which seems to be the opposite of how it should be.


You are asking for input, while providing limited information, this would require a great deal of assumptions, not something to work from (i.e. we have no idea how much you truely walk and on what surface, for all we know you could be doing 20 miles on concrete everyday; you haven't mentioned if this is your first pair of welted shoe, you could have been walking on a glued on sole shoes that you wear through and toss).

As mentioned twice it would be great to see a decent picture of the bottom of both shoes, and have a bit more info as to how much you are walking and on what.

If you have another pair of similarly manufactured shoes that you've exposed to the same wear and they have lasted 2 years you could have a case, if this is your first pair of leather soled welted shoes and the wear is even on the shoes you may not.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Odradek said:


> So now I walk with "an uneven gait" and don't take care of my shoes?
> I can assure you, there are shoe trees in these boots when ever I'm not wearing them.
> I wear them about 3 days a week and they're polished regularly.
> 
> ...


You've got the wrong impression I think, and you're expecting a little too much out of your soles  But you are right in that that's (car to office) basically what leather soled shoes will hold up for.

I can see from those soles that they have been worn down. From the amount of creasing on the uppers, they have been walked in a lot. Theres probably nothing wrong with those shoes. 3 days a week with both city and country roads, and some walking, leather soles wont hold up for that. Especially not if they get wet or if there's gravel. When I started wearing leather soled shoes, I expected them to hold up better. For banking, they hold up, for real walking, they don't.

3 days a week is too much, the shoes won't have time to dry out properly. That's why we need more shoes.

More expensive soles will hold up a lot better. 175£ Loake soles will not.

I recently bought a pair of €89 Bexley leather goodyear soled shoes. Wore them one day before putting rubber soles on them, just to get a little wear on the sole to make the 'topies' stick better. The amount of wear of one days walking (45 minutes on asphalt) was equivalent to 2 months of wear on a pair of Church's I bough a couple of years ago. The soles are not very good on the Bexleys. Fortunately a thin rubber sole takes care of that.

For me, there is quality wise a sweet spot for shoes around the price of Crockett and Jones, Church's etc. I can't afford very many such shoes, so I get cheaper ones as well. But here is a difference in quality.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

mrp said:


> As mentioned twice it would be great to see a decent picture of the bottom of both shoes, and have a bit more info as to how much you are walking and on what.


From my front door to the car I walk about 30' of gravel footpath. Anything else I walk during the day is concrete or tarmac. Or around the supermarket.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Toes and heels.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Odradek said:


> From my front door to the car I walk about 30' of gravel footpath. Anything else I walk during the day is concrete or tarmac. Or around the supermarket.


The wear is the essentially the same on both shoes, you don't have an uneven gait. The wear of the shoe leads me to believe one of two options (or a combo of both)
1) you are walking ball/heel vs heel/toe 
2) you climb a great deal of stairs and sliding you foot in on the stair prior to putting your weight on the foot

I wouldn't tag this as a manufacturing issue as it appears fairly uniform and it would be expected if you aren't walking heel/toe. I would recommend a rubber sole when when you resole and a toe tap, not much sense in a heel tap.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

mrp said:


> The wear is the essentially the same on both shoes, you don't have an uneven gait. The wear of the shoe leads me to believe one of two options (or a combo of both)
> 1) you are walking ball/heel vs heel/toe
> 2) you climb a great deal of stairs and sliding you foot in on the stair prior to putting your weight on the foot
> 
> I wouldn't tag this as a manufacturing issue as it appears fairly uniform and it would be expected if you aren't walking heel/toe. I would recommend a rubber sole when when you resole and a toe tap, not much sense in a heel tap.


As far as I can tell I have always walked in the normal fashion, which I assume is what you mean by heel/toe. Can't imagine how anyone would walk ball/heel.
I do go up and down a stairs frequently, but it's carpeted and I can't see how it would wear a leather sole.

Anyway, I e-mailed Herring Shoes about it and had a call back this morning from Mr. Herring himself, who asked me to send the boots to him for inspection.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Odradek said:


> As far as I can tell I have always walked in the normal fashion, which I assume is what you mean by heel/toe. Can't imagine how anyone would walk ball/heel.
> I do go up and down a stairs frequently, but it's carpeted and I can't see how it would wear a leather sole.
> 
> Anyway, I e-mailed Herring Shoes about it and had a call back this morning from Mr. Herring himself, who asked me to send the boots to him for inspection.


I suspect Herring's will be most gracious.
That said, I do not see anything in your photos or description that would lead me to believe there is any manufacturing or material defect in those shoes. I see wear.

I know I have been quite a bit more direct than others, but please do not take it as a personal affront. I think you may have come here perhaps more looking to have your belief that your shoes were defective reinforced, rather than actually seeking to discover whether or not they may be defective. If so, keeping an open mind on the matter is not a bad alternative.

A time span alone is really not an adequate gauge of what kind of wear to expect from a pair of shoes. How were they worn? How were they cared for? What level of quality were the shoes in the first place?
I once went through 2 resolings and 4 pair of heels on a pair of boots in a 4 month time span. There was nothing wrong with the boots. They were top quality Frye boots and it was the mid-1970s (a time when Fryes were among the best of their type available.) I happened to be travelling at the time, and was doing a considerable amount of walking on all sorts of surfaces.
I had no complaints about the wear, and happily paid for the soles and heels every time, knowing that the boots themselves were holding up so well through all that wear.

You may have put more wear on those boots of yours than you realize. (30 feet of gravel path, coming and going, 3 days a week for 6 months is almost a mile and a half of gravel path. That alone will wear a pair of soles!)

Herring Shoes is known to be a very reputable vendor of affordably priced goodyear welted shoes, that are of good quality for their price. Had you received a bad pair, I have little doubt that you would receive prompt accomodation from Herring. On the other hand, I hate to see any honest vendor taken to task for what may simply be normal wear that is no fault of the item in question.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Odradek said:


> As far as I can tell I have always walked in the normal fashion, which I assume is what you mean by heel/toe. Can't imagine how anyone would walk ball/heel.


It would not be considered the optimum walk for a heeled shoe unless you are doing it for a specific reason. It would explain your wear pattern or lack of wear on the part of the shoe where one would expect it the most (rubber heel insert).


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Many times, people just do not realize how much walking they do in the course of a days activities. For several years, prior to retirement,, I wore a pedometer on my belt all day, almost every day, to track how much my normal activities added to miles covered in daily fitness runs. It was a rarity for me to cover less than 5 miles in the course of a normal days work activity. That amount of walking about is going to wear the soles and heels of shoes, rather quickly!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Odradek said:


> ...They are worn probably 3 or 4 times a week...


This is too often. They need at least one day's rest (with shoes trees) between wearings.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

This shouldn't happen, no matter how much you walk, how you walk and no matter how little care you provide to your shoes. Shoe trees wouldn't prevent this, neither would cleaning and polish. This is clearly a defective pair of shoes.
A decent pair of shoes shouldn't come apart. You can buy a pair of Shoes at Walmart and at Payless and expect them to come apart, but I wouldn't expect anything I paid over $100 for to come apart.
The heels, soles, insoles, uppers, etc. can wear out but the shoe should never come apart. Period.
These are clearly defective.

Contact the retailer to see how they are willing to fix this problem for you. If they tell you this is normal, don't buy from them again.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

triklops55 said:


> This shouldn't happen, no matter how much you walk, how you walk and no matter how little care you provide to your shoes. Shoe trees wouldn't prevent this, neither would cleaning and polish. This is clearly a defective pair of shoes.
> A decent pair of shoes shouldn't come apart. You can buy a pair of Shoes at Walmart and at Payless and expect them to come apart, but I wouldn't expect anything I paid over $100 for to come apart.
> The heels, soles, insoles, uppers, etc. can wear out but the shoe should never come apart. Period.
> These are clearly defective.
> ...


triklpps55 What is supposed to hold the layers together once you wear through the thread? A welted shoe works just like the seam in your pants.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
The soles on some shoes/boots are glued, as well as stitched, to the upper assembly of the shoe. In any event, they should not seoerate from the welt, as pictured in the OP.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

mrp said:


> triklpps55 What is supposed to hold the layers together once you wear through the thread? A welted shoe works just like the seam in your pants.


Glue. Most of my shoes are welted. The stitching is gone at the sole far before the rest of the shoe wears yet I've never had the problem of shoes coming apart anywhere; that's something that's simply unacceptable.
I've never had my pants come apart either.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

triklops55 said:


> Glue. Most of my shoes are welted. The stitching is gone at the sole far before the rest of the shoe wears yet I've never had the problem of shoes coming apart anywhere; that's something that's simply unacceptable.
> I've never had my pants come apart either.


Glue can hold multiple pieces of leather together, but you need the stitching to hold the shoe together you can loose a bit of stitching here and there but when you loose the amount shown on these shoes the shoe comes apart.
https://www.redwingheritage.com/partial/craftsmanship/good-year-welt-construction/
If you begin to remove stitches from one side of a lock stitched seam on you clothing the seam will come apart.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

triklops55 said:


> This shouldn't happen, no matter how much you walk, how you walk and no matter how little care you provide to your shoes. Shoe trees wouldn't prevent this, neither would cleaning and polish. This is clearly a defective pair of shoes.
> A decent pair of shoes shouldn't come apart. You can buy a pair of Shoes at Walmart and at Payless and expect them to come apart, but I wouldn't expect anything I paid over $100 for to come apart.
> The heels, soles, insoles, uppers, etc. can wear out but the shoe should never come apart. Period.
> These are clearly defective.
> ...


Please save the indignation, and perhaps expend the energy on more closely viewing the photos posted.
I have them open on a high-def monitor, so perhaps the defects are more clearly visible.

What I see are soles that are not only worn paper-thin in the area of the stitching, but actually worn through in several places around the edges. The soles are also scuffed up, as though the wearer might slide or shuffle his feet while walking (or perhaps the scuffing is due to the gravel walkway that he regularly walks on.)

And though he says he cares for the shoes regularly, the uppers, as seen in the photo, are dry and scuffed, with the sort of deep, set-in creases that are the very thing that shoe trees are intended to avoid. These would be signs of a lack of care, and by his own account, he wears them twice as often as is optimal.

The soles are simply worn out. There's nothing wrong with that. There's no disparaging a person for wearing out a pair of shoes, or even wearing them hard. And though minimal care (or less) mightn't be good for the shoes, that is the owner's choice. What should be questioned, though, is attempting to ascribe blame to the manufacturer for those things.


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## TomS (Mar 29, 2010)

Not to wade too deep into a discussion by men far more educated than I, but it does strike me that there is sometimes a contradiction in the generally accepted wisdom about shoes around here.

On the one hand, leather-soled, Goodyear-welted leather shoes, preferably made in Northampton, are considered not just the ideal but a minimum standard below which no gentleman should stoop. On the other, said gentleman is expected to own at least two pairs of each colour/style reasonably required so as not to wear them too quickly, and not to walk very far or very vigourously, and certainly not in the rain or snow.

Is is sacrelige to suggest that the modern man, particularly a young, not terribly wealthy man, might wear a Dainite-soled shoe, or else get his leather shoes re-soled with rubber? I'd be sad to declare that the leather-soled shoe isn't a very good idea nowadays, but it doesn't seem to be.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

TomS said:


> Is is sacrelige to suggest that the modern man, particularly a young, not terribly wealthy man, might wear a Dainite-soled shoe, or else get his leather shoes re-soled with rubber? I'd be sad to declare that the leather-soled shoe isn't a very good idea nowadays, but it doesn't seem to be.


Certainly not sacrilege, one might say prudent. One need not completely resole with rubber because a rubber "Topy" (brand name) can be placed over the leather sole. While some say this does not let the shoe breath and thus heat can build up, others say not. At least a partial rubber oversole is an excellent way to extend a shoes life while preserving the leather underneath.

https://www.topy.fr/en/6/1/Shoe_repair-Hard_wearing_sheeting.html


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

arkirshner said:


> Certainly not sacrilege, one might say prudent. One need to resole with rubber because a rubber "Topy" (brand name) can be placed over the leather sole. While some say this does not let the shoe breath and thus heat can build up, others say not. At least a partial rubber oversole is an excellent way to extend a shoes life while preserving the leather underneath.
> 
> https://www.topy.fr/en/6/1/Shoe_repair-Hard_wearing_sheeting.html


I would 2nd this for the young (or older) not terribly wealthy man. For that matter it's a good idea for the shoes that you wear into the "field" so to say that sees greater wear. The money saved could open the door to another pair of shoes to fill the closet.


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

TomS said:


> Not to wade too deep into a discussion by men far more educated than I, but it does strike me that there is sometimes a contradiction in the generally accepted wisdom about shoes around here.
> 
> On the one hand, leather-soled, Goodyear-welted leather shoes, preferably made in Northampton, are considered not just the ideal but a minimum standard below which no gentleman should stoop. On the other, said gentleman is expected to own at least two pairs of each colour/style reasonably required so as not to wear them too quickly, and not to walk very far or very vigourously, and certainly not in the rain or snow.
> 
> Is is sacrelige to suggest that the modern man, particularly a young, not terribly wealthy man, might wear a Dainite-soled shoe, or else get his leather shoes re-soled with rubber? I'd be sad to declare that the leather-soled shoe isn't a very good idea nowadays, but it doesn't seem to be.


Exactly. Stick some Topy on and the soles will last ten times as long. Either that or resign yourself to resoling every hundred wearings. I've seen no downside to the Topy, and the only reason I have heard not to use it appears to be anecdotal or just user preference. Don't get me wrong, going with plain leather soles because you like them is a fine reason, but you WILL need to have the soles replaced more often if you do so.

Andy B.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

arkirshner said:


> Certainly not sacrilege, one might say prudent. One need not completely resole with rubber because a rubber "Topy" (brand name) can be placed over the leather sole. While some say this does not let the shoe breath and thus heat can build up, others say not. At least a partial rubber oversole is an excellent way to extend a shoes life while preserving the leather underneath.
> 
> https://www.topy.fr/en/6/1/Shoe_repair-Hard_wearing_sheeting.html


Have never used a Topy, but see absolutely nothing wrong with the idea, or rubber soles for that matter, if that's what the wearer might prefer. I certainly prefer rubber soles for any shoe of a more casual nature. I find them both more comfortable and more practicle for a variety of reasons.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

No! Don't use them.

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?75732-Warning-Stick-on-soles


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Jovan said:


> No! Don't use them.
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?75732-Warning-Stick-on-soles


I have my cobbler attach thin rubber soles and have never had a problem. Have one pair of leather soled that are now going on their 8th or 9th year without a full resole needed.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Also, take salt, rain and snow into account and it's either topys, dainite or no shoes at all. These boots were made for walkin


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

TomS said:


> Not to wade too deep into a discussion by men far more educated than I, but it does strike me that there is sometimes a contradiction in the generally accepted wisdom about shoes around here.
> 
> On the one hand, leather-soled, Goodyear-welted leather shoes, preferably made in Northampton, are considered not just the ideal but a minimum standard below which no gentleman should stoop. On the other, said gentleman is expected to own at least two pairs of each colour/style reasonably required so as not to wear them too quickly, and not to walk very far or very vigourously, and certainly not in the rain or snow.
> 
> Is is sacrelige to suggest that the modern man, particularly a young, not terribly wealthy man, might wear a Dainite-soled shoe, or else get his leather shoes re-soled with rubber? I'd be sad to declare that the leather-soled shoe isn't a very good idea nowadays, but it doesn't seem to be.


Not to continue the acrimony of this thread on any more, but I agree with this post completely.
I started this thread because I was amazed that a pair of Northampton made, leather soled, Goodyear welted boots had worn so much in less than 6 months of 3 day a week wear. Wear by someone who spends most of his time driving instead of walking lately. 
With my boots now posted back to the Herring for inspection, yesterday I wore a pair of Clark's shoes (design by Oliver Sweeney), with a synthetic sole. Bought them for about £80 I think, about 5 years ago, and wear them maybe two or three times a month. They might need new heels soon, and the leather, or fake leather insert on the sole will need replacing. But otherwise they're in great shape, for supposedly "cheap" shoes. Granted, they feel very lightweight in comparison to any of the Northampton made, leather soled shoes I have, but they're in one piece.

As for "topys" or anything else you have to glue over your leather soles. Doesn't that somehow take away the point of the leather soles in the first place?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Jovan said:


> No! Don't use them.
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?75732-Warning-Stick-on-soles


Interesting read, half way down the page I thought of all the military surplus shoes that I've seen (both dress and work) that various military's have used in the past 60 years with rubber half soles, some of the these shoes were issued and reissued and resoled multiple times; as I read further I saw the post by Bengal-Stripe bringing up the German all weather soles. I thought a bit more on the subject and recalled that the heels have a full piece rubber sandwiched between the leather layers that build the heel to help with impact/shock loads while walking. Janne Melkersson raised some good points in the thread, in regards to soles and wet conditions, he had no negative comments on using "topys" to simply extend the life of the sole of a shoe. Bottom line is skip to the last post on the thread, by Bog and read the quoted post from "Roger"


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

*Rubber soles are made for walking*

In retirement, I walk many of the places I most often visit - the university, libraries, banks, shopping, etc. I usually wear quality rubber-soled footware and would not consider wearing a shoe with a leather sole for a routine two mile walk. I wear proper shoes with leather soles for business, cultural and social occasions to which I drive.

The photos the OP posted seem clearly to show wear, not a defect.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Bjorn said:


> Also, take salt, rain and snow into account and it's either topys, dainite or no shoes at all. These boots were made for walkin


You forgot overshoes!

No offence to anyone else who "uses them without problems" but whose advice am I going to take -- master shoemakers all over the world or some people on an internet forum? Just saying. :biggrin2:


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Please save the indignation, and perhaps expend the energy on more closely viewing the photos posted.
> I have them open on a high-def monitor, so perhaps the defects are more clearly visible.
> 
> What I see are soles that are not only worn paper-thin in the area of the stitching, but actually worn through in several places around the edges. The soles are also scuffed up, as though the wearer might slide or shuffle his feet while walking (or perhaps the scuffing is due to the gravel walkway that he regularly walks on.)
> ...


I'm not indignant. I'm just providing my opinion, as the OP requested.
I took a look at the pictures again. Maybe the shoes aren't defective. They're just of a lower quality that one would expect from a pair of shoes costing over a couple hundred bucks.
I've seen many really worn shoes. I've worn shoes to death. I've only witnessed this happen to shoes that are poor quality or badly made. He should be able to wear clear through the sole without it ever separating.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Jovan said:


> You forgot overshoes!
> 
> No offence to anyone else who "uses them without problems" but whose advice am I going to take -- master shoemakers all over the world or some people on an internet forum? Just saying. :biggrin2:


True, overshoes work. But then you're not getting any bang for bucks out of those nice shoes.

I've had dainite soled shoes but leather+topy feels better. They wear in better and become more comfortable than dainite, I think.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Jovan said:


> You forgot overshoes!
> 
> No offence to anyone else who "uses them without problems" but whose advice am I going to take -- master shoemakers all over the world or some people on an internet forum? Just saying. :biggrin2:


On the other at least one of the masters stated (in the thread )
The reason why I don't make my shoes with Topy's is that I can not see much benefit with them. If I would be afraid to get wet I would act consistently and stitch on a full rubber sole on top of the leather sole.

That said, I don't believe in that the stitches will be harmed, or the sole will sweat and crack by the use of a rubber sole may it be full or half. I have not seen any such proof so far. 

I'm in complete agreement here, if you are going to walk in water get some overshoes, on the other hand if you are only concerned with wear another layer of better wearing material i.e. topy/vibram/etc won't do any harm.

[/SIZE]


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Maybe. I'm still not convinced that Topys or toe taps are really worth the bother. If I did get them, they'd have to be applied to the heel as well to balance them out.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Just to update the thread, I contacted Herring about the boots and got a call back from Adrian Herring himself who said to send them to him for inspection. He said they'd get them re-stitched at the factory if there was a manufacturing fault.
Just received them back this morning with all new soles and heels fitted, free of charge.
As ever, great customer service from Herring.


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

Good for Herring. Looking at the sole and heel photos, I'd have said that the soles were badly worn, but the heels not. Assuming gospel about everything the OP stated and that the heels haven't been replaced, I'd guess something in the leather used on the soles, possibly too soft a leather. I normally replace heels once or twice before needing to resole. I have some very old shoes with a lot of wear and the only time I ever experienced a sole separation problem was with a waterlogged pair I had to hike in in the rain for some time due to a broken down car. It's a moot point now, of course.


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## jonesjones (Mar 4, 2012)

Obviously it's worth telling them. You won't know if they'll give you a full/part refund until you try!


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