# Black Tie Preferred



## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

I've been invited to a wedding. It's being held later this month, in NYC. It takes place in the evening. I am a distant relative of the groom, and will be traveling a couple of hundred miles to attend. I will not be a groomsman or anything like that.

The invitation reads "Black Tie Preferred."

I've lost a considerable amount of weight over the past year, and my old tuxedo no longer fits, nor could it really be altered so as to fit properly. (I tend to have need of a tuxedo once every couple of years, if that.)

I haven't purchased a replacement tuxedo yet, although I do own several very nice dark gray suits. For various reasons, I would prefer to avoid purchasing a new tuxedo right now. And I've never really liked the idea of wearing rented clothes.

I've attended "Black Tie Optional" weddings, and while some men wore tuxedos, many did not. But it's my understanding that "Black Tie Preferred" is somewhat different from "Black Tie Optional."

If I show up in a dark suit, white shirt, and conservative tie, am I likely to draw attention for being "that guy who didn't know how to dress for the event?" Or would I simply be one of the many tuxedo-less men present?

(Naturally, were the wedding "Black Tie," I wouldn't need to run this question past you, since a tuxedo would be required. Same if it were "Black Tie Optional," and I knew that a conservative suit would be fine. But it seems society has discovered that the vast chasm between "required" and "optional" cries out to be filled with multiple nuances of expectation. Sort of how interior decorators find a need for there to be 267 shades between "white" and "off white.")
-- 
Michael


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## Casual_yet_trying (Mar 25, 2010)

By rule, you really need to get a tux. If you had a solid black suit, you might be able to get away with that.

I've been told "black tie preferred" means that unless you are financially unable, tuxedo is expected.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

You might want to take your current tuxedo by a reputable tailor and see if there is any way it can be altered to fit your new body (congratulations, BTW). If it would require too much work and money, I'd seriously consider buying a new one if I were you. 

If not, you could probably get by with with a dark suit. But out of respect to the relatives who invited you (mostly the bride, as it was her wish to have the wedding be black tie), get a new tuxedo. You will be more confident at the wedding, and you will be far happier in the long term (especially if you wear one on a regular basis).

Consider it a gift to yourself for losing weight!:icon_smile:


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## FrontHeadlock (Dec 1, 2009)

If you hadn't said the wedding was later this month I'd have thought you were talking about my wedding! We just sent out invitations for a Black Tie Preferred wedding in a couple months.

If someone were asking me why we went with Black Tie Preferred, here's what I would say:

1. We wanted to convey that the wedding was a very formal affair, and that, at the very least, we expected men to be in a dark suit and tie. We have some relatives who are a bit unsophisticated when it comes to dress and we wanted to hammer this point home. 

2. We really would have liked a pure "Black Tie" wedding, but we really didnt want to offend people who didn't have the means to come in a tuxedo. As such, we chose "Black Tie Preferred" to basisally tell our guests that (a) a lot of guys will be wearing tuxes, so don't be shy about it and (b) that we would like you to wear a tuxedo if you have one or can easily rent one.

I, personally, would not be offended if someone wore a dark suit to the wedding. We just really wanted to maximize the black tie atmosphere without excluding those who couldnt partake. If I had to guess I would say about a third to half the men will be in tuxes.


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

FrontHeadlock said:


> We really would have liked a pure "Black Tie" wedding, but we really didnt want to offend people who didn't have the means to come in a tuxedo.


I think this sums it up well. If I were you I'd definitely buy a new one, unless you're planning to lose a lot more weight you'll be needing it in the future anyway. No matter how nice your black suit is, you'll look inferior to the men in tuxedos since that's basically what the invitation is asking for.


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

a!!!!1 said:


> If I were you I'd definitely buy a new one, unless you're planning to lose a lot more weight


Well, that's it exactly. If I buy a tuxedo this week, it's highly likely that by the next time I have occasion to wear it, it will be a couple of sizes too large. And while I have a pretty good tailor, there are limits, you know? So, in effect, I'd be purchasing the tuxedo to wear once. And cheapskate that I am, I'd rather not do that if a significant percentage of the men at the wedding will not be wearing tuxedos.



> No matter how nice your black suit is


Dark gray suit, please. I don't wear a black suit unless it's to a funeral. (I realize that many men don't hold with this rule. That's fine. But it's what I was taught, and I'm sticking with it.)

I suppose I could visit a local shop tomorrow, and at least see if there's some fantastic tuxedo sale going on. Then work on getting invited to more black tie events this summer. 
-- 
Michael


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

If you need an inexpensive tux, you might as well go with a jos A. Banks tux.:icon_smile_big:

https://www.josbank.com/menswear/shop/SubCategory_11001_10050_16506


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Black tie prefered is what it says on the tin for a reason, because it's "preferred" not optional. For black tie preferred, a charcoal or navy lounge suit is perfectly acceptable, but not a black lounge suit. I don't care how expensive or well cut they are black lounge suits never look good on anyone.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

12345Michael54321 said:


> Dark gray suit, please. I don't wear a black suit unless it's to a funeral. (I realize that many men don't hold with this rule. That's fine. But it's what I was taught, and I'm sticking with it.)


I agree, but I take it further, in that I don't even wear a black suit to funerals. The only time I wear a black suit is when I'm in a dinner suit. I don't own a black lounge suit, because I have zero use for one.


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## ColorblindinMO (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't know clothes, but I do know cheap. I'm also pretty good at living independent of obligations and the expectations people put on me.

Given what you've told us (primarily, your reasons for not buying a new tux right now), I'd say your best options are:

1.) don't go
2.) get over your discomfort and rent a tux for the occassion
3.) wear a suit and be confident and gracious

You've got a perfectly good reason for not buying a tux for one occasion. No need to apologize for it. It's not like it's your daughter's wedding.Besides, nobody is going to be looking at you. They'll be looking at the bride.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

First of all let me say that I have some real problems with anyone asking friends and loved ones to wear black tie to a wedding when very few men own tuxedos. To ask those folks to go out and buy or rent clothing in order to merely attend a wedding is putting an additional burden on them above and beyond what some are already enduring, such as travel and housing expenses.

When I think back to weddings that my wife and I attended in other cities when we had young children, I remember some stressful weekends in addition to the expense. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to rent or buy clothes to boot. 

And is it really fair to request 80 year old granddad and grandma who might be living on a fixed income to rent clothing in order to see their granddaughter get married? Young people often are fixated on their young friends and don't think about the many older loved ones who could really be put out by such a request. Like I said, most men don't own tuxedos.

With that in mind, since you say that this is a "distant relative" and the wedding is 200 miles away I would either decline the invitation or go and wear the dark suit with white shirt. I have a hunch that there will be quite a few men in attendance wearing suits and a few others who don't show because of the black tie request.

Cruiser


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Wise words Cruiser! Personally, apart from once when I was best man in black tie, I've only ever worn what I want to wear when attending weddings. That said, a dress code specified on a wedding invitation in Europe is something I've never seen and hope never to see. And I've been to lots and lots of weddings in England and Sweden.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Wise words Cruiser! Personally, apart from once when I was best man in black tie, I've only ever worn what I want to wear when attending weddings. That said, a dress code specified on a wedding invitation in Europe is something I've never seen and hope never to see. And I've been to lots and lots of weddings in England and Sweden.


I think black tie weddings is more of an American thing.
Black tie optional is a more appropriate dress code, though dressing up at all is still difficult for many Americans. I know plenty of people who don't have suits. Many don't even have sports coats. Shirt and tie are as far as many can go.


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

12345Michael54321 said:


> Dark gray suit, please. I don't wear a black suit unless it's to a funeral. (I realize that many men don't hold with this rule. That's fine. But it's what I was taught, and I'm sticking with it.)


Why this rule? I'd say a good 90% of the businessmen I deal with have worn black suits on at least one occasion and looked quite good in them. Now as far as wearing black just to walk around town, that might be too much, if that's what you're referring to.


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Matt S said:


> Black tie optional is a more appropriate dress code, though dressing up at all is still difficult for many Americans. I know plenty of people who don't have suits. Many don't even have sports coats. Shirt and tie are as far as many can go.


That's the real crux of the problem. I know plenty of people who don't own a suit or even a sport coat as well-- which is evident when they show up to Easter mass in jeans and sneakers. For a large portion of people (your socioeconomic situation may vary), they'd have to rent a suit, let alone a tuxedo. And with places like uniformalwearhouse and other online retailers, for the cost of renting, you might as well buy. Besides, there are people like me who are itching to wear a dinner jacket but have few opportunities.


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## DavidLeoThomas (Jan 18, 2010)

While I understand Cruiser's point, I want to point out that it is precisely this attitude that leads to a lack of black tie events that leads to no one having a tuxedo in their wardrobe in the first place. If my wedding was to be in the evening, I'd be somewhat tempted to say black tie...


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## Sean1982 (Sep 7, 2009)

Wear black tie or don't go, unless you really can't afford to rent black tie, and then you can go in a formal suit.

I went to a 'black tie optional' awards dinner at a hotel last week, and 90% of the men wore black tie.


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

If I'm reading correctly, I see that a few are saying that it is an added expense for some to rent/buy a tuxedo - which would be unfair financially to the attendees. 

I think a wedding is a two way street. The BRIDE and groom decide the atmosphere of the event. They are the main two who will be looking back on the occasion for years to come. They are spending 10's of thousands to host the entire event. If someone is gracious to include me in their special event I would make the attempt to honor their wishes. "Black Tie Preferred" says if you got them or can purchase or rent them wear them. If not, come in a suit and tie. Leave the tennis shoes, work boot and jeans at home.

I don't think that a door monitor will be present extracting individuals who don't have Black Tie attire. I just think the soon to be married couple wants to dress the atmosphere the best that they can. 

I don't think it rude to place a standard on their affair.

Options: don't go, come in a suit, rent a tuxedo, buy a tuxedo or come in those boots or tennis shoes and weird everyone out.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Michael,
It says "black tie preferred" precisely because the hosts (i) would like to have a black tie wedding but (ii) respect and value their invited guests enough to wish to accomodate those for whom black tie would present an unfair burden, either because of cost or practicality. Given your reasoning, I have no doubt that a dark suit and conservative tie would be perfectly fine. 

All,
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the requested dress code. It is simply more precise than black tie optional in that it communicates the preference without eliminating the option.

I agree that the means and circumstances of the invitees generally should be taken into account. I also agree that if that were the sole determinant, one might as well prescribe jeans and t-shirts.

a!!!1:
You might want to use the search function on solid black suits. They are controversial creatures among those who care about dress. Most traditionalists dismiss them as trendy and appropriate for funerals (at most), or perhaps clubbing (something traditionalists probably also dismiss); certainly not for business. Young people seem to like them, but I have to say I do not find them as attractive as navy or gray. Few well-dressed men wear them, but I suppose some do. Mostly they are worn by the kind of fellow who wears four-in-hand ties at black tie events and young people who admire that kind of fellow.


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Thank you all, for your take on this matter.

I was on the phone with my sister, earlier this afternoon. I shared my concerns with her, and she informed me that neither her husband, nor our uncle, would be wearing tuxedos. And that as she understood it, the bride mostly wanted to make sure guests wouldn't be showing up in chinos and polo shirts. As she spoke with the bride at a luncheon, not long ago, I'm inclined to believe that she knows what she's talking about.

Given all this, I intend to show up in a very nice charcoal suit, white shirt, handsome tie, and shined shoes. And I'm not going to waste any further time worrying about it.

If I get there, and see that of the 240 guests present, only my brother-in-law, my Uncle Ted, and I, are wearing suits, I promise I'll post here and admit it. But I don't expect that to be the case.

And I should probably stop referring to the event as "that damn wedding," too. 
-- 
Michael


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Sean1982 said:


> I went to a 'black tie optional' awards dinner at a hotel last week, and 90% of the men wore black tie.


What were the remaining 10 per cent wearing Sean? I hope it wasn't like the police spring ball I attended one year in Chelsea when all the officers and other guests wore black tie, as specified on the invite. Except for just one solitary officer who turned up in blue blazer, chinos and...yes you've guessed it...a black tie. 
To add insult to injury and to his own sense of feeling about 2 inches tall, he turned up about 20 minutes late, when everyone else was already seated. So drawing attention to himself as he stood in the door with his date, you could have heard a pin drop, as everyone looked at him looking around at all of us, in DJs to a man! 
His date also must have felt well uncomfortable because she was in an everyday office skirt and blouse, whereas all our wives and girlfriends were in ball gowns and similar.

Poor Chris, that he didn't know what black tie meant, that no one told him or that he felt too awkward to ask anyone.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> What were the remaining 10 per cent wearing Sean? I hope it wasn't like the police spring ball I attended one year in Chelsea when all the officers and other guests wore black tie, as specified on the invite. Except for just one solitary officer who turned up in blue blazer, chinos and...yes you've guessed it...a black tie.
> To add insult to injury and to his own sense of feeling about 2 inches tall, he turned up about 20 minutes late, when everyone else was already seated. So drawing attention to himself as he stood in the door with his date, you could have heard a pin drop, as everyone looked at him looking around at all of us, in DJs to a man!
> His date also must have felt well uncomfortable because she was in an everyday office skirt and blouse, whereas all our wives and girlfriends were in ball gowns and similar.
> 
> Poor Chris, that he didn't know what black tie meant, that no one told him or that he felt too awkward to ask anyone.


That is too bad. I hope that everyone treated them both well nonetheless. The essence of a gentleman is to treat others with kindness, especially those who are in a vulnerable position. Few people go through life without encountering some type of awkward and embrarrassing curcumstance.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Sean1982 said:


> I went to a 'black tie optional' awards dinner at a hotel last week, and 90% of the men wore black tie.


I put things like award dinners, parties, New Years Eve celebrations, charity fund raisers, private club events, etc. in a totally different category than a wedding. I have absolutely no problem at all with a host specifying black tie for these type events. Not only that but I would fully expect that all participants be dressed in black tie if that is what is specified.

A wedding is a gathering of family and friends, the overwhelming majority of whom are simply there to observe and be witnesses to the ceremony that is put on by the wedding party. To this end I have no problems with whatever demands are being made of those who are actually part of the wedding ceremony. They aren't spectators.

It's different for those sitting out there watching. We're usually talking extended family here which in many cases involves people crossing all lines from socio-economic to educational to whatever you care to name.

Most men own a coat and tie and if they don't they are easily borrowed. Most men do not own a tuxedo. I think of my own father. He had a 9th grade education and spent his entire life working on the slaughterhouse floor of a meat packing plant. According to the Social Security records his lifetime earnings were only $156,000. We're talking lifetime here. When he died a few years ago his only income was $800 a month from Social Security.

I doubt that my Dad even knew what a tuxedo was. He owned one suit, one dress shirt, one tie, and one pair of dress shoes for wear to things like Church, funerals, etc., and he got all of this at the Goodwill Store. I just can't see requiring an 85 year old man like that to rent a tuxedo in order to be able to watch his granddaughter get married.

I fear that sometimes young clothing hobbyists get so caught up in their enthusiasm for their clothes that they forget that not everyone shares their enthusiasm. There is nothing at all unreasonable about wanting guests at your wedding to wear a coat and tie; but demanding that guests (not participants but guests) dress up in clothing that almost nobody in the real world has in their closet is not so reasonable.

Cruiser


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## Marcus Brody (Oct 11, 2008)

If I were you, with your aversion to rental clothing, I'd wear the dark suit and not worry about it. 

The amount of "don't go" advice amazes me. If one of my relatives didn't show up for my wedding because they didn't want to show up wearing the wrong clothes, I'd be aghast. I love dressing and if I had an evening wedding, I might make it black tie preferred, but I'd still rather that anyone I cared enough about to invite come - even if it was in swimming trunks and a t shirt - than skip and have better uniformity of dress. 

I know my friends/family. Some are more likely to have tuxedos than others. I'd want to encourage those with them to wear them, but certainly wouldn't want anyone for whom it would a burden to feel weird about not doing so.


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

Is there any way to send an invitation that would let people know you'd prefer they wear a tuxedo but that they can wear whatever they like without feeling uncomfortable? ie. a better way of saying "a tuxedo, or whatever the best thing you have is, regardless of whether it's a nice suit or just jeans and a polo"


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

a!!!!1 said:


> Is there any way to send an invitation that would let people know you'd prefer they wear a tuxedo but that they can wear whatever they like without feeling uncomfortable? ie. a better way of saying "a tuxedo, or whatever the best thing you have is, regardless of whether it's a nice suit or just jeans and a polo"


I would say that's the definition of "Black Tie *Preferred*". It's as if the bride and groom are saying "We PREFER it if you wear black tie, but if you are unable to, we understand, and if that's the case please dress the best you can."

From blacktieguide.com:

*Black Tie Preferred*

_This terminology is used by those who want to host a very formal party but do not want to exclude guests that cannot afford a tuxedo. Invited guests genuinely unable to meet the expense of buying or even renting a dinner jacket may wear a dark suit and tie instead. Guests that own or can easily afford a dinner jacket but cannot be bothered to wear one should politely decline the invitation. To do otherwise is boorish as it tells the host in no uncertain terms that his or her preferences are irrelevant. _

I don't necessarily agree with the last couple sentences about declining the invitation, but obviously the bride and groom have stated their preference and one should respect their wishes if possible and if not, do the best they can to look the best they can.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Black Tied Preferred = Formal/Semi-Formal.

'We're not going to exclude you if you don't have, or can't afford formal attire, but this isn't a casual affair either.'


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

Two points:
Any wedding in a mainline Protestant church (don't know about others) is a public function and open to anyone...invitation not required and no dress code. The invitation is for the reception...a party held in honor of the married couple.

2. If you have some time there is another option...buy a used tuxedo at a thrift, charity or consignment shop. I have seen at least ten within the last week. Prices range from 35.00 to 75.00. Much less than a rental and then its yours for future use.


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## Lookingforaclue (Nov 10, 2005)

First, I should say thatI am always looking for an excuse to wear black tie regalia.

But, were I the host, I would far rather have my friends than the clothes, and I suspect that anyone who sends you an invitation in this day of hyperpriced wedding receptions really wants you to come.

SRW


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

If I have written it once on AAAC, I have written it a thousand times....

IMO, terms like "Black Tie Optional" and "Black Tie Preferred" are total cop-outs. If a host wants an event to be black tie, then request it. If they are unsure, then they should simply request "Cocktail Attire." 

It's a generally accepted rule, when an invitation requests black tie be worn, that a percentage of men who neither want nor can wear the requested attire will simply show up in a suit. If the host has a modicum of class or manners, he/she won't care nor bat an eye.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

TMMKC said:


> If I have written it once on AAAC, I have written it a thousand times....
> 
> IMO, terms like "Black Tie Optional" and "Black Tie Preferred" are total cop-outs. If a host wants an event to be black tie, then request it. If they are unsure, then they should simply request "Cocktail Attire."
> 
> It's a generally accepted rule, when an invitation requests black tie be worn, that a percentage of men who neither want nor can wear the requested attire will simply show up in a suit. If the host has a modicum of class or manners, he/she won't care nor bat an eye.


The rule described is not a "rule" at all. Rather, it is simply an unremarkable observation which allegedly implies that a black tie invitation need not be qualified as "optional" or "preferred" in order to be understood as optional or preferred. I disagree. That implication assumes (i) that it is unreasonable for a host to ever expect or desire that an invited guest attend in black tie attire or not attend at all and (ii) that substantially all men assume (i) to be the case. Arguably, TMMCK makes a third assumption as well -- i.e., that substantially all men are assuming that hosts are reasonable as understood by TMMCK. In any event I think assumption (i) is questionable at best, and assumption (ii) is simply not sustainable. I'm confident that while many men would understand a black tie invitation as implicitly expressing a preference only, I'm equally confident that many men would understand such a invitation as being prescriptive and not optional. Accordingly, it makes perfect sense for a host to express his wishes plainly.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

I do hope we are talking about an evening wedding and reception here. And not that peculiar American black tie/afternoon wedding some people with just enough information to be dangerous seem to think is de riguer or a way to show their upscale bona fides.

If in daytime, I would go with the dark suit, white or light blue shirt, conservative tie, black cap toes.

If indeed evening, I would go with black tie.

As to the not so well heeled members of the extended family, thats a tough one, as I saw my Dads best friend fom childhood show at at my sisters informal daytime wedding (Blue blazer/white slack on participants, no suggestions for guests) in a short sleave shirt like he was going to a picnic. These days you cant assume everyone will dig out at least a jacket and tie. But suggesting black tie when the extended family is simply not the kind of family that has a dj or evening dress in the closet is a bit much. Had I not eloped I would have simply asked guests to adhere to jacket and tie level of formality as I did at my daughters christening. It is in church after all.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Actually, ALL Christian church services (Protestant,Catholic) are open to everyone, christenings, weddings, confirmations and funerals.

So the dress code, as someone else said, can only properly apply to the reception's invited guests.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Apatheticviews said:


> Black Tied Preferred = Formal/Semi-Formal.
> 
> 'We're not going to exclude you if you don't have, or can't afford formal attire, but this isn't a casual affair either.'


Semi-formal evening=black tie/dinner jacket
Formal evening=white tie/tails aka full dress

Semi-formal day = Stroller w striped trousers
Formal day = Morning coat w striped trousers


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

Literide said:


> Semi-formal evening=black tie/dinner jacket
> Formal evening=white tie/tails aka full dress


As I am of the age where many of my friends/acquaintances are getting married, I am willing to bet that if "semi-formal" were to appear on an invitation for a wedding for someone in their mid-20s--regardless of the time--black tie is not what would come to mind. In fact for the handful of weddings I've attended in the past two years (a mix of day weddings and evening weddings), only one of them listed a stated dress code, and it was "Black Tie Optional".


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

nehpets99 said:


> As I am of the age where many of my friends/acquaintances are getting married, I am willing to bet that if "semi-formal" were to appear on an invitation for a wedding for someone in their mid-20s--regardless of the time--black tie is not what would come to mind. In fact for the handful of weddings I've attended in the past two years (a mix of day weddings and evening weddings), only one of them listed a stated dress code, and it was "Black Tie Optional".


I recently attended an evening function characterized as "semi-formal." I inquired and was told that while neck ties would be acceptable, most men would probably not be wearing ties. I find the careless attitude in regards to dress codes and nomenclature very unfortunate. Those who take liberties with time-honored definitions to suit their own preferences are simply allowing their arrogance to confuse everyone. If you mean casual, simply say casual. I realize that definitions change over time, and few contemporary Americans would recognize Literide's traditional definitions, but to go from that to "no tie" seems a bit much.


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## Horticulturalist (Jan 30, 2009)

What I have a problem with is this definition:

From blacktieguide.com:

*Black Tie Preferred*

_This terminology is used by those who want to host a very formal party but do not want to exclude guests that cannot afford a tuxedo. Invited guests genuinely unable to meet the expense of buying or even renting a dinner jacket may wear a dark suit and tie instead. _

It would seem to imply that the only excuse for not wearing a dinner jacket, is the inability to afford one. In other words, based on this definiton of "Black Tie Preferred", not wearing a DJ will mark out the guest as "the poor relation" (not referring to the OP here, but generally). Well, that will make for a comfortable atmosphere... Or it will force guests in to ill-fitting an ill-advised rented or thrifted DJs.

I like the idea of a black tie do, but I would prefer a room full of guests looking smart, and feeling comfortable in their own clothes.


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## nehpets99 (Jan 22, 2010)

Mike Petrik said:


> I find the careless attitude in regards to dress codes and nomenclature very unfortunate. Those who take liberties with time-honored definitions to suit their own preferences are simply allowing their arrogance to confuse everyone. If you mean casual, simply say casual. I realize that definitions change over time, and few contemporary Americans would recognize Literide's traditional definitions, but to go from that to "no tie" seems a bit much.


My point exactly. The entire country doesn't read AAAC or SF forums nor do they have an understanding of what's customary or traditional for wedding. Had one received an invitation to an evening wedding without a dress code listed (as I have a few times) and shown up in black tie, you'd have been the only one outside the wedding party/immediate family in a tuxedo, and you would've stood out. In fact the one black tie optional wedding I've attended, only 1-2 people outside of the wedding party/immediate family were dressed in a tux, and they were relatives. (I should admit that I was not one of them as I do not own a tuxedo and at this stage in my life I'd get more use from a black suit than a tux, so instead I came in a black suit, white shirt, and black long tie and I was certainly the only one my my age to even attempt to honor "black tie").


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## ColorblindinMO (Mar 19, 2010)

You guys clearly live in a different world than I do. Maybe you would find it "interesting" to know how the other half lives:

I live in a small, midwestern town. We're the seat of state government, but generally the town has a rural, small-town feel about it. It's heavily Catholic, which seems to influence manners at social events. I can't remember the last wedding or funeral I went to that I didn't see people dressed in blue jeans. Yes, a lot of men (older generally) will dress in sport coats or suits, but you'll see a lot of guys dressed business casual-sans jacket.

Wedding receptions in my world tend to include plastic cups and kegs of beer. If there was any formality to the wedding, the ties and jackets come off for the reception. I attended a family wedding reception recently that was held in a four-car garage and included a half dozen dogs running around the place. Most of the guests changed into blue jeans between the ceremony and the reception.

Funerals around here are worse than the weddings. The visitations are definitely come-as-you-are events. A lot of times, you get the impression that the attendees clocked out and drove over. The funeral services aren't much different. Again, lots of jeans. "Dressed up" seems to mean you put on a clean button down (short sleeve) shirt.

The Catholicism seems to influence this. Folks around here don't dress up for mass. They go in jeans, t-shirts, whatever. I guess they figure if they're not going to get dressed up for God, they don't need to make an effort for anyone else, either. For what it's worth, the protestants tend to dress a bit better for their special events. If I go to a Presbyterian or Methodist wedding, most men seem to be in sport coats or suits.

THere really isn't a point to this one way or another. I'm just reporting that there is a world out there where the subject of "black tie" is completely foreign.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

The point about dress 'requirements' on invitations is surely to serve the guests by indicating what the style is going to be, and so what most men will be wearing. I would think twice about attending a 'white tie' event in anything other than white tie, but 'black tie', I think, can generally be taken to mean your best suit if you haven't got, or don't want to wear, a dinner jacket (I don't think one would want to say 'if you can't afford it').

My problem with black tie 'prefered' or 'optional' is that it sounds as if the host will be disappointed with a guest who came in his best suit and not a dinner jcket when the 'rule' is intended to help the guest feel at ease.

The wise and kind host will have some idea of what most guests will possess and so what it is appropriate to 'require'.

The wise guest will ask what is meant by ambiguous requirements.


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

nehpets99 said:


> My point exactly. The entire country doesn't read AAAC or SF forums nor do they have an understanding of what's customary or traditional for wedding.


For not just weddings but any event in general, would it be completely repulsive to list examples of acceptable attire somewhere on the invitation or somewhere else, for example "Casual (dress pants, sport coat, button down, etc)." I'd assume that when you say "casual" most people think "jeans and polos" or when you say "semi-formal" most people think "tie, no jacket" which are both of course wrong but I think it would be pretentious to assume everyone knows what these terms mean.


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## DavidLeoThomas (Jan 18, 2010)

Per "Etiquette", 17th edition:



> "Black tie optional." "Smart casual." These and other terms on party invitations are intended to tell the recipient what is appropriate to wear for the occasion, but they are just as likely to raise questions. For hosts and hostesses, the more thoughtful approach is to stick with the standard categories [...] and to use ambiguous terms [...] only when an explanation is supplied.


The point of stating a dress code is to put your guests at ease. If you're too vague, then they are still unsure as to what they "should" be wearing.

If a guest cannot afford (be it in time, money, or other praticality) to meet the specific requirements, then it should always be understood - particularly at a social event - that they should make their best effort to dress as near as they can to the formality of the occasion, but shouldn't then feel bad about showing up in whatever they could manage.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Trimmer said:


> The point about dress 'requirements' on invitations is surely to serve the guests by indicating what the style is going to be, and so what most men will be wearing. I would think twice about attending a 'white tie' event in anything other than white tie, but 'black tie', I think, can generally be taken to mean your best suit if you haven't got, or don't want to wear, a dinner jacket (I don't think one would want to say 'if you can't afford it').
> 
> My problem with black tie 'prefered' or 'optional' is that it sounds as if the host will be disappointed with a guest who came in his best suit and not a dinner jcket when the 'rule' is intended to help the guest feel at ease.
> 
> ...


I disagree in part. While certainly one of the purposes of specifying dress is to help guests feel at ease, that is not the only purpose. If it is, the host should specify "come as you are" or "dress as you please." The specification is intended also to communicate the host's expectations. At least in many parts of the US an invitation labeled "black tie" would not be understood to be optional. And many men who prefer not to wear black tie (for whatever reason including financial) would opt to not attend. Those same men would feel more welcome if the invitation was qualified by either "optional" or "preferred." These qualifiers are quite useful.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

These things still drive me crazy--and for good reason, since "casual" can mean almost anything. Up here in the hills we have "Golf Casual" cocktail parties where some men will come straight from the course and those with morning tee times will probably wear a jacket, "Casual" which will usually see most of the over 60s in a sport coat--but a notch below "Cocktail casual" or "Dressy Casual." Suits seem to be worn even by captains of industry only to benefits, weddings, funerals, christenings and such.

There was the guy who wore his best suit to the doctor's office before a minor surgical procedure. Most men don't dress up for a vasectomy, but his theory was "If I'm going to be impotent, I'm going to look impotent..." But I digress.

Outside of "Black Tie" I am really comfortable with only two--one invitation which is going to read "Jacket, NO tie" every year and the one for our clubs annual Polar Bear Party held in an unenclosed building by a lake around December 29th (at 4000' it can be cold.) It reads "Dress: All you've got."

I deal with my insecurities easily. If I don't know, no matter what a non-wedding, non-church invitation reads I drive up in a dress shirt with a sport coat/blazer and tie in the car. I can usually scope out the other guests as I drive up. Underdressed? I drop my wife off, tell the valet "I have to go back to the hospital for a minute," duck around the corner and reappear in appropriate dress. On the rare occasions I'm overdressed, off comes the tie and sometimes the jacket stays with the wife's wrap. 

Still, I like "Black Tie Preferred." It's clear. I'd just like to kill the various "casual" variations and go with "Suit preferred," "Jacket and tie," "Jacket NO tie" "Golf attire, beach attire, flip-flops preferred," and so on.

It's enough to make you want to have a nudist wedding. At least you can see who the best man is.


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