# Politics & Family



## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

I was out to dinner the other night ... in Danville at Bridges (if you want to picture the restaurant ... it was used in the movie, _Mrs. Doubtfire)._ At the table behind me were three generations of the same family celebrating a young fellow's birthday ... so we had son, father and grandfather. The table was close ... and they were a bit loud ... but not in a bad way ... until the incident I describe below.

At one point, the father turned to his son and asked, "George W Bush. Great president or greatest president ever?" Before the son could answer, the grandfather chimed in "George Dubya Bush ... low IQ ... or lowest IQ ever?" Actually he was quoting someone nearby who'd picked up on the conversation and offered up his own question to his table. The grandfather then added, "What do you think the Duhhhhbya stands for anyway?" Sadly, a rather serious argument ensured among the three generations.

My question ... how do you deal with family members having significantly different political outlooks ... and who insist on making a statement?


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

First, every family has within it members whose political views differ from the other members. Having said that let me add:

Discussions as such should be conducted at home. What is the point of asking the initial question? Were they really prepared for an indepth give and take or were they looking for punchlines. As for grandpa, they should have left him at home. If he really made that remark than he's no better than a child.


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## AOI Photo (Dec 19, 2006)

How I handle it depends on the family members involved. 
There are those who disagree with me, who enjoy the discussion, and find it worthwhile - as I do - to hear the arguments of the other side. These conversations never result in a raised voice,a nd often take place in public.

There are family members who disagree with me who relish - as do I - a good argument. These conversations would sound like a brawl to outsiders so they take place at home.
There are relatives who disagree with me, and take all disagreement as a personal assault. Politics is not discussed if I can avoid it.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

We do have one family member whose views are radically at odds with those of the rest of us. He and I will frequently argue about politics at family gatherings. My sister, his wife, gets somewhat upset when this happens because she would clearly want to smooth things over, so she tries to steer clear of any political discussions, but the political differences do not lead to hard feelings.

Before you start accusing me of boorishness for engaging in these discussions in disregard of my sister's wishes, let me say that: 1. the political disagreements don't lead to fractured personal relationships, 2. the participants enjoy it, and 3. I think both my brother-in-law and I get some useful insight in these conversations by getting an inside view into the mind of the opposite political persuasion.

If you can't have a political disagreement with a family member without it leading to yelling and personal estrangement then you should avoid political discussions.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

First off...I like danville as a town, but I don't go out there that often anymore just because most of the people there are a bunch of self important liberal know it alls...but that's the bay area for you (I really need to relocate)...

But...as far as family and politics...aside from my mother (whom I converted) I am the only republican in a family of ultra-left tree-hugging union lovers...it can be downright exhausting at times to listen to their liberal rhetoric...from
my grandma and her blind devotion to the unions who are robbing her blind by cutting every last benefit she was promised when my grandfather retired to my hippie uncle who is out protesting with the rest of the nutbags everytime the president opens his mouth, to my aunt who blamed the government for hurricane kitrina (because aparently kane west was telling the truth about da gubment not caring about black people) my whole family is steeped in liberal whacky-ness...I find the best way to deal with them is just to avoid talking about Los politicos with them...if I must...then I throw all diplomacy out the window because its damn near impossible to remain diplomatic when you're out numbered by liberals (and their logic) by 10 to 1...


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

My question is not about which political view is right ... and which is wrong ... or about political parties per se. I don't care if someone is a self-important liberal or self-important conservative. Please, lets avoid that for once if possible. I'd rather this not become the "knock-down-dragout" that occurred at the table in question.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

So ... rather than state a political position (most of us have already figured each other out in that regard) ... lets stick to the question.


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## cufflink44 (Oct 31, 2005)

The Gabba Goul said:


> First off...I like danville as a town, but I don't go out there that often anymore just because most of the people there are a bunch of self important liberal know it alls...but that's the bay area for you (I really need to relocate)...


Perhaps you'd like Colorado Springs.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

We all know where the others stand, and there are plenty of other topics besides politics. I can't recall this ever becoming an issue at a family gathering. Mostly we talk about family stuff.

Besides, a couple of the cousins likely would respond, "George who?"


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

I "feel" everyone is entitled to their opinion, political or otherwise. I can even respect their political stance if their stance is based on educated information. More often than not (especially for children and to a degree wives) the "father/husband" seems to dictate the family's political affiliation.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

We do not talk politics too much at family gatherings. Any disagreement is fairly friendly and brief; it does not usually take a card carrying UAW, New Democrate long to run out of arguments. 

If someone wished to pick a biligerent fight with me at a family meal out RSS, as you described, I would simply not pick up the cheque as is my custom. The one time I did not in the last 10 years (my brother's very blonde, very ditzy wife was being obnoxious), a rather large stack of low denomination bills and a pile of loonies and twonies were handed to the waitress. A little personal lesson that if you decide to tick off the cash cow, the cash might well not be forth coming. A lesson people crafting tax policy should keep in mind.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

A fine meal should be an event where some topics are suspended, much like the cessation of war during the ancient Olympics. My younger brother embraced the twilight of the counterculture and then cashed in on a meal ticket with the diamond industry 3 units short of a B.A. from UCLA. Having never served in the military, gone overseas or learned any foriegn languages he nevertheless thinks his specialised calling makes him an authority on everything. So, not fine dining but we were assembled together at a BBQ place on the outdoor patio. He started in on how we could win in Iraq. I picked up my short rib dripping with sauce. " You know, this meal reminds of of that young horse that impaled itself on the sheared shaft of the shooting brake at the last carriage club competition. Now that was a mess, you could actually see it's intestines before we applied a battledressing from my first aid kit and..... ( effecting the enraged facial expression of our equally world naieve but degree specialised father) Chris! that is NOT a fit subject in front of my daughter! Oh, and your armchair posturing on how young american and iraqis should kill each other in more beneficial numbers is?" I let him pay my meal too, a small retribution for all the meals I covered during his academic career partying with money orders sent from an E4s paycheck overseas.


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> First off...I like danville as a town, but I don't go out there that often anymore just because most of the people there are a bunch of self important liberal know it alls...but that's the bay area for you (I really need to relocate)...


Do I have a solution for you, GG: Sunny San Diego, California. America's Finest City, as it formerly presumed to call itself, or The Belly of The Beast, as I affectionately refer to it (although, given its extreme location on a map of "Turtle Island" San Diego might more accurately be called the Anus of The Beast - but that doesn't scan as well.) Christ, San Diego was Dick Nixon's "lucky city" - how's that for a pedigree? Regrettably, clothes shopping is dismal around these parts, but the babe quotient is off the charts; and you can go months without running into _any_ kind of liberal, self-important or otherwise - unless you happen to bump into me or the other one in your daily rambles. The best weather in the world (a toasty 84 at my house today); hot and cold running bimbos; sound politics; and a short drive or plane ride from El Lay and San Francisco. What more could you want? Come on down, and I'll personally hook you up. Word.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Lushington said:


> Do I have a solution for you, GG: Sunny San Diego, California. America's Finest City, as it formerly presumed to call itself; or The Belly of The Beast, as I affectionately refer to it (although, given its extreme location on a map of "Turtle Island" San Diego might more accurately be called the Anus of The Beast - but that it doesn't scan as well.) Christ, San Diego was Dick Nixon's "lucky city" - how's that for a pedigree? Regrettably, clothes shopping is dismal around these parts, but the babe quotient is off the charts; and you can go months without running into _any_ kind of liberal, self-important or otherwise - unless you happen to bump into me or the other one in your daily rambles. The best weather in the world (a toasty 84 at my house today); hot and cold running bimbos; sound politics; and a short drive or plane ride from El Lay and San Francisco. What more could you want? Come on down, and I'll personally hook you up. Word.


Lush,

Good choice for GG. I'd recommend Cincy, but his frosted hair would cause the 'billies here to think he is questionable.

Cheers


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Lushington said:


> and you can go months without running into _any_ kind of liberal


He would have to avoid:

1.) Ocean Beach, where I lived.

2.) Hillcrest.

Actually, I found it pretty easy to go months in San Diego without hearing any political talk of any kind. The apathetic rule!


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## Benjamin.65 (Nov 1, 2006)

RSS said:


> My question ... how do you deal with family members having significantly different political outlooks ... and who insist on making a statement?


It has never been a problem for us. We all in my family are of varying degrees of political flavour. But we enjoy health debate. Maybe it's an English thing:icon_smile_wink:


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Lushington said:


> Do I have a solution for you, GG: Sunny San Diego, California. America's Finest City, as it formerly presumed to call itself, or The Belly of The Beast, as I affectionately refer to it (although, given its extreme location on a map of "Turtle Island" San Diego might more accurately be called the Anus of The Beast - but that doesn't scan as well.) Christ, San Diego was Dick Nixon's "lucky city" - how's that for a pedigree? Regrettably, clothes shopping is dismal around these parts, but the babe quotient is off the charts; and you can go months without running into _any_ kind of liberal, self-important or otherwise - unless you happen to bump into me or the other one in your daily rambles. The best weather in the world (a toasty 84 at my house today); hot and cold running bimbos; sound politics; and a short drive or plane ride from El Lay and San Francisco. What more could you want? Come on down, and I'll personally hook you up. Word.


All joking aside, I actually really like San Diego, for many of the reasons you describe above...I have several friends who live in that area...every time I go to visit them, I always think about how much I'd like to live down there...its like the Miami of the west coast...plus, if I miss having a knock down-drag out with a liberal, I can meet you for coffee or a beer or something, lol...

Oh and RSS, I believe I avitally did answer your question...look again...sorry if I hurt your feelings with the danville comment...


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

RSS said:


> My question ... how do you deal with family members having significantly different political outlooks ... and who insist on making a statement?


Open-mindedness is one of the definitions and hallmarks of liberalism, so in my family divergent opinions -- political and otherwise -- were not only acceptable but encouraged. So were rebellion and most other rites of passage for teenagers. It was a truly wonderful environment to grow up in.

So IMO there's no need to "deal" with this issue. Take your family's opinions for what they're worth and try to learn something from them.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Most of my in-laws and some friends have differing views on politics than I. Therefore, when we give a dinner party I have one rule: No politics or religion at the dinner table! In these polarized times I find it saves everyone, especially me, from getting indigestion. It also allows me to continue to be the consummate host. :icon_smile: 

If I want to talk politics I save it for the Interchange or discussions with my father.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Oh and RSS, I believe I avitally did answer your question...look again...sorry if I hurt your feelings with the danville comment...


Perhaps you did answer my question ... and you didn't hurt my feelings. At my age and position ... very little does. I've heard it all ... so not to worry.

My post was only to request that people refrain from adding information that is totally unimportant to my question and is of absolutely no purpose other than the "personal soapbox." Whether you love or hate liberals or conservatives is moot ... at least as far as my question is concerned.

But now to stand on my own personal soapbox ...

Gabba ... I must admit ... your description of Danville as liberal did bring a smile to my face ... as I think of Danville -- much if not most of Contra Costa County -- as being a tad conservative ... well, actually neoconservative. This perhaps goes to show how relative the terms conservative & liberal are. After all, this is coming from one who considers himself middle-of-the-road ... or perhaps as being a conservative "Truman" Democrat ... one who will and does cross party line to vote for the best candidate. And I'd imagine my position will be thought of as being liberal to extremely liberal by some ... and yet conservative to extremely conservative by others.

Again, relative comes to mind ... albeit a different kind of the relative from those at the table in Danville.

To quote Hugh Kingsmill -- although I usually prefer to attribute this bit of wit to Dorothy Parker -- "Friends are God's apology for relatives." Now, we're talking about that kind at the table.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I met and knew someone from Danville. Not only is he a liberal, he's a "stupid liberal". Meaning that he is "faux informed" and makes ludicrous claims that are easily proven incorrect and common sense would tell one not to believe. He reads stuff like Salon or the Onion for his political and economic views.  He was also a total dork and a goober. He gave "men" a bad name and he was straight (supposedly). He remains totally oblivious and thinks he's part of an elite minority of people that "get it" - which makes him even more hilarious. To be honest, I'm fairly "particular" as a southerner and I always assumed it was a 'California-thing', not a 'Danville-thing'.

RSS, I don't view anyone that uses the term "neo-con" as middle of the road. YMMV, but if you are indeed MoR or want to be perceived as such, perhaps you should be aware of the perception it creates for the listener when you use it.


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

Politics at the dinner table? Say isn’t so!

In all seriousness, I would suggest a polite comment as to the inappropriateness of such a contentious issue while dining in polite company, and the transition to a more light-hearted topic of conversation.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

ksinc, you prove my point. You obviously think I am a liberal ... perhaps extremely liberal. I can promise others find me to be conservative. It's relative.

Unless, of course, you posit fact rather than opinion. My father certainly thought he did. :icon_smile_wink:

EDIT: Change of rules for all ... it's a free-for-all. :icon_smile:


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

RSS said:


> ksinc, you prove my point. You obviously think I am a liberal ... perhaps extremely liberal. I can promise others find me to be conservative. It's relative.:icon_smile_wink:
> 
> Unless, of course, you posit fact rather than opinion.


I prove your point? LOL

Ok ,then ... I'll bite ... perhaps you will regale us with when you first learned the word and existence of "neo-cons" and started using it yourself?

And; no actually it's not relative. It's relative to say "RSS is conservative compared to me" or "RSS is liberal compared to me". However, it is not relative to BE conservative or to BE liberal - it is an absolute refernce. Again, words mean things. I have only expressed the perception you create by your language choice, not what I believe you to be. Certainly, it is not a perception limited to me. The word "neo-con" is very polarizing. It is used certainly by both extreme left and extreme right people, but by both derogatively. So, you are incorrect with your conclusion. I'm only saying that it is not a characteristic of someone MoR. As a MoR person you should wish to know and be less so.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Since it is now a free for all, I will chime in and agree with ksinc, people that use the term "neocon" do tend to be rather to the left of the political spectrum than an MoR person. Not a hard and fast rule, but it is usually a "tell" about a person's politics. You might well be the exception to the rule RSS but then again, some liberals here try to tell me my ideas are far from mainstream....go figure


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Well, like your dining experience it comes down to picking up the tab. I've met leftists with their hands in my leftpocket, rightists in the right and I worry deeply about centrists.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Kav said:


> Well, like your dining experience it comes down to picking up the tab. I've met leftists with their hands in my leftpocket, rightists in the right and I worry deeply about centrists.


LOL, classic one Kav


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

ksinc said:


> I don't view anyone that uses the term "neo-con" as middle of the road. YMMV, but if you are indeed MoR or want to be perceived as such, perhaps you should be aware of the perception it creates for the listener when you use it.


Conversely, putting the word neoconservative in quotes, as if such a political movement doesn't really exist, creates its own perception for readers. These are generally the same people who actually believe Fox News is fair and balanced, or that Bush and Cheney are somehow conservatives instead of neoconservatives.

At least fiscally, the differences between true conservatives and borrow-and-spend neoconservatives are readily apparent, as are the differences between true liberals and tax-and-spend socialists.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> Conversely, putting the word neoconservative in quotes, as if such a political movement doesn't really exist, creates its own perception for readers. These are generally the same people who actually believe Fox News is fair and balanced, or that Bush and Cheney are somehow conservatives instead of neoconservatives.
> 
> At least fiscally, the differences between true conservatives and borrow-and-spend neoconservatives are readily apparent, as are the differences between true liberals and tax-and-spend socialists.


Frank!!! Where ya been hiding? Got my homework done yet? 

BTW, are you from Danville?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Kav said:


> Well, like your dining experience it comes down to picking up the tab. I've met leftists with their hands in my leftpocket, rightists in the right and I worry deeply about centrists.


Kav ... as one in the center ... I promise to keep my hands away from your center "pocket."



ksinc said:


> Ok ,then ... I'll bite ... perhaps you will regale us with when you first learned the word and existence of "neo-cons" and started using it yourself?


As for when I first heard/used the term neoconservative ... it was most likely at some point in the 1980s ... I really don't recall the exact year. Time tends to get away from me ... relative, you know. I do recall first hearing the term used by a older friend (and Republican) who died of cancer in April of 1994 ... so certainly prior to that time. You might find it interesting that I first heard the term applied to +Spong ... an acquaintance I respect ... moreover, the person using the term felt similarly (as my friend is now deceased, I use past tense).

As to being conservative or liberal ...


ksinc said:


> And; no actually it's not relative. (It) is not relative to BE conservative or to BE liberal - it is an absolute reference. I don't view anyone that uses the term "neo-con" as middle of the road.


You claim that being liberal or conservative is absolute (in theory, perhaps ... but I'm talking about what people "think") and you base your definition of me on my use of one word or term ... "neo-con". Were it an absolute as I'm using it ... my choice of a word would have no bearing. And while I'm sure that "neocon" has at times slipped from my lips-- and obviously has slipped from your hand -- I prefer the term neoconservative ... as used by conservatives, John Dean (think Richard Nixon) and Barry Goldwater ... both men having unquestionable conservative credentials ... well, from my point of view. Again, it's all opinion ... all relative.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Kav, I take it you don't like to initiate political discussions unless you are with a female centrist. Is this correct?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

RSS said:


> As to being conservative or liberal ... You calm that being liberal or conservative is absolute ... and you base your definition of me on my use of one word or term ... "neo-con". Were it an absolute ... my choice of a word would have no bearing. And while I'm sure that "neocon" has at times slipped from my lips-- and obviously has slipped from your hand -- I prefer the term neoconservative ... as used by conservatives, John Dean (think Richard Nixon) and Barry Goldwater ... both men having unquestionable conservative credentials ... well, from my point of view. Again, it's all opinion ... all relative.


Once again, I neither called you anything nor attempted to define you as anything. What I said was to BE conservative or BE liberal is absolute, but to be comparatively conservative or liberal is a relative reference and opinion. You read what I wrote, it was plain and its meaning clear.

As I previously said, both the far right and far left use the term neo-con (or neo-conservative that makes no difference). Thank you for proving MY point.  However, it does imply you are not in the middle. Additionally, true MoR/moderate types don't even know that label and can't name and/or identify people like John Dean.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

ksinc said:


> BTW, are you from Danville?


LMAO!!! i laughed so hard when I read this they probably heard me out in danville...

Seriously...I think even danville would be too conservative for ol' Frank, too many SUVs and white people for him...


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

ksinc said:


> What I said was to BE conservative or BE liberal is absolute, but to be comparatively conservative or liberal is a relative reference and opinion. You read what I wrote, it was plain and its meaning clear.


 Of course, my initial point was indeed comparative. I indicated some would think me liberal ... some conservative. Perhaps you might consider reading what I wrote.


ksinc said:


> Additionally, true MoR/moderate types don't even know that label (neconservative) and can't name and/or identify people like John Dean.


 How very sad ... those you think to be -- or define as ... I'm sorry ... you're not defining anything -- "true MoR/moderate types" must be terribly uninformed.


ksinc said:


> ...it does imply you are not in the middle.


 By your ... uhhhh ... *definition *only.

Of course, whether or not John Dean has recognition is irrelevant to my point. I know that name recognition is often used on the interchange as a test of relevance for some points ... but your copycat approach falls short of the intent you seek to achieve. Whether or not he is recognized does not change the fact that he is a fine American conservative. Moreover ... you can't be serious when you say ... _"true MoR/moderate types ... can't name and/or identify people like John Dean."_ What on earth do you think a "true MoR/moderate" type to be? I can assure you there are educated types of every political bent -- from the most conservative to the most liberal ... and certainly in the middle -- who can not only name John Dean ... but who are more than a bit aware of his contributions to America.


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## AOI Photo (Dec 19, 2006)

RSS said:


> You might find it interesting that I first heard the term applied to +Spong ... an acquaintance I respect ... moreover, the person using the term felt similarly (as my friend is now deceased, I use past tense).


Two things
1. You know +Spong? I am envious beyond words.

2. Someone described +Spong as a neoconservative ?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

AOI Photo said:


> Two things
> 1. You know +Spong? I am envious beyond words.
> 
> 2. Someone described +Spong as a neoconservative ?


I've met +Spong a number of occasions. I am acquainted with him ... but I cannot say we are friends ... although I do have great respect for him. My first introduction was via Howard Galley ... at the time, the editor of the Daily Office of the Episcopal Church.

As for someone describing +Spong as a neoconservative ... the term was used to describe his stance in promoting gay marriage. A friend -- and Episcopal priest -- was telling me about an article he'd read about a gay group having taken a stance against +Spong ... referring to him a "neoconservative." This particular group thought of +Spong's stance as an attempt at forcing "heterosexual morality" on their community. As I recall, that was the first time I heard the term _neoconservative_ used.

EDIT: These days I find it odd to think that I first heard this term applied to +Spong.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

RSS said:


> Of course, my initial point was indeed comparative. I indicated some would think me liberal ... some conservative. Perhaps you might consider reading what I wrote. How very sad ... those you think to be -- or define as ... I'm sorry ... you're not defining anything -- "true MoR/moderate types" must be terribly uninformed. By your ... uhhhh ... *definition *only.


RSS, Should I just assume that anything you don't parse means you are in total agreement and stand corrected? such as "Once again, I neither called you anything nor attempted to define you as anything." I do read what you write and continue to call you on your contradictions and blurring of words and their definitions. You absolutely did not say what you now think you said. What you said was: "your description of Danville as liberal did bring a smile to my face ... as I think of Danville -- much if not most of Contra Costa County -- as being a tad conservative ... well, actually neoconservative. This perhaps goes to show how relative the terms conservative & liberal are." No, it doesn't. The terms are not relative, they are distinct and descriptive. Many people use them comparatively, but most do so in error. Just because Bill Clinton might be more conservative than Hillary Clinton does not make him A Conservative. Being a conservative actually means something specific. We can't read your mind, only your words. This is why words are important. Perhaps you should preview your posts more carefully if you don't like people reading with such a critical eye? You are the one that tries to label everyone, not me. If you are going to be derogatory and label people then you have to be prepared for higher scrutiny yourself. I tend to be generous and thus I expect and usually get generosity in return. I simply point out the errors in your posts, and describe your actions when you get defensive. I'm sorry that you think MoR types are uninformed, but that doesn't change that name recognition on John Dean is low among the popular majority.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

RSS,

Nothing remotely conservative about Spong. He certainly didn't conserve the numbers of his flock when he led Newark.

Karl


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*Left and Right... Right and Left????*



Kav said:


> Well, like your dining experience it comes down to picking up the tab. *I've met leftists with their hands in my leftpocket, rightists in the right and I worry deeply about centrists*.


Please dont tell Howard about this thread... or where's left, where's right.

He got it all wrong...:icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:

...from paris 2 LA


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

ksinc said:


> RSS, Should I just assume that anything you don't parse means you are in total agreement and stand corrected?


Shall I assume that every point you do not address is one for which you stand corrected?



ksinc said:


> Once again, I neither called you anything ...


 Have I said you called me something?



ksinc said:


> ... nor attempted to define you as anything.


 No ... not literally ... but you attempted definition ... by subtraction ... by implication ... by insult. And besides ... it's easy to read between the lines with you. :icon_smile_wink: Don't take everything so ... uhhh ... literally.



ksinc said:


> ...that doesn't change that name recognition on John Dean is low among the popular majority


 So? What's your point?


ksinc said:


> true MoR/moderate types ... can't name and/or identify people like John Dean.


 Are you saying that someone who knows of John Dean and/or his accomplishments can't be a "true" moderate? Now lets be precise about this ... indeed you are one insisting on a precise use/definition of words.

EDIT: But not to worry ... I'm not offended ... it's all rather fun. But I'm kinda tired ... and after a while ... it's a bit like trying to get blood from a turnip ... what's the point.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

RSS said:


> No ... not literally ... but you attempted definition ... by subtraction ... by implication ... by insult. And besides ... it's easy to read between the lines with you. :icon_smile_wink: Don't take everything so ... uhhh ... literally.


To be blunt, that's either a terrible error or a bold lie. Regardless, your assumed familiarity is an error. I am pleased if you would refrain from addressing me in the future and I will return the favor.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Ksinc, you and I have had two interactions via multiple posts. In each you have been arrogantly dismissive and combative. In the previous exchange you were blatantly rude. You have indeed attempted definition by subtraction ... by implication ... by insult ... only to hide behind _*your *_precise choice of definition ... as if no one can see the truth for what it is.

From this post forward, I shall indeed adhere to your request and refrain from addressing you in the future. I thank you for offering the same in return.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Frank!!! Where ya been hiding? Got my homework done yet?
> 
> BTW, are you from Danville?


Sort of. Spent 20 years in the area, including a few years in the last remaining nice cities like Danville and Atherton. At this point they amount to millionaire ghettos: drive 2 miles in any direction and you're right back in the third-world shithole that is now the Bay Area. We finally got so tired of road rage, people who have something to prove, who're constantly mad at the world etc etc, we fled some time ago to the central coast and haven't looked back since. All that's left to do now is to keep you Volvo-driving, wine-tasting neocon brie eaters out of our nice down to earth county.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> Sort of. Spent 20 years in the area, including a few years in the last remaining nice cities like Danville and Atherton. At this point they amount to millionaire ghettos: drive 2 miles in any direction and you're right back in the third-world shithole that is now the Bay Area. We finally got so tired of road rage, people who have something to prove, who're constantly mad at the world etc etc, we fled some time ago to the central coast and haven't looked back since. All that's left to do now is to keep you Volvo-driving, wine-tasting neocon brie eaters out of our nice down to earth county.


Wow! Amazing! I was sort of run out of my hometown too. Had to move outside the city to get away from all the northerners that flock down. We might as well pay NJ State Taxes down here it's so bad.

FWIW, I drive an F-150. My Wife has the S60.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I always thought Volvos were more the car of a liberal. Granted you get some folk that are not, but by and large, I always think of them as a lib-mobile. Whenever I pass a 20 year old Volvo wagon, belching smoke, driving 15 miles under the limit, it invariable has a "Save the Earth" type bumper sticker or two on it.

FrankDC, is "third world shyte hole" a new PC term?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I always thought Volvos were more the car of a liberal. Granted you get some folk that are not, but by and large, I always think of them as a lib-mobile. Whenever I pass a 20 year old Volvo wagon, belching smoke, driving 15 miles under the limit, it invariable has a "Save the Earth" type bumper sticker or two on it.
> 
> FrankDC, is "third world shyte hole" a new PC term?


I think they are economically conservative even if socially liberal. I know two people close to reaching the free Volvo replacement.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I imagine my last volvo reflected my politics. It was a Gerbers baby food tan/orange 240 from Montana with a fully race built chevy 350 engine installed. I took delivery at the Camarillo Outlet and drove home up the infamous Camarillo grade. Some kid in a brand new performance car came screaming up behind me as I shifted and hit the gas, those skinny 78 series tyres somehow maintaining traction under the torgue of the heavy duty rear end ratio. He managed to catch me at the peak, passing respectfully with mouth agape. Condemning people with pro environmental bumperstickers is akin to people who attack Captain Paul Watson of Sea Shepherd for using deisel ships. We would have loved to ram the Sierra with a sailing ship, but nobody offered one for sale. Automobiles, with all the attendant pleasures of the classics and what can be a marvelous outdoor experience are a destructive system of transport with often no alternatives. Everyone is guilty of hypocrisy to some degree, willing or not. Don't be pointing fingers lest they are directed back at you.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Kav: I was not condemning anyone, just describing my mental image of a liberal Volvo driver....one that I see on a fairly regular basis here. You are right, it is hard to live your life 100% according to your ideals, but there are degrees i.e. do not put the environmental bumper sticker on an old hulk belching smoke, you hurt your cause.

There is also nothing wrong with Volvos per se. My wife is on her second now, she has a nice XC90 and enjoys driving it; I enjoy having her in a very safe vehicle. Her lease is due next summer and we are unsure if she will make it three straight Volvos. The redesigned Mercedes ML is a nice ride and have a very nice engine and safety features.

However, I have to say deeming brie cheese and Volvos an indicator of a neocon are news to me.

Cheers


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Not being funny...but nobody's ever been able to give me a solid deffinition of what exactly a neocon is...does such an animal even exist or should the term neocon be lumped in with VRWC and global warming as nothing more than liberal buzzwords frivolously thrown around in order to prove their "obvious intelectual superiority"???


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually someone once posted some well defined links on it. Sounds like something Lushington or Phinn would post. Gents?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Below is an article by Irving Kristol written a few years ago.


As he indicates, some refer to him as the godfather of the neoconservatives. Moreover, he's a man of some intelligence.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Actually someone once posted some well defined links on it. Sounds like something Lushington or Phinn would post. Gents?


Straight from M-W. This is kind of funny actually 

neocon=>neoconservative

Main Entry: neo·con 
Pronunciation: 'nE-O-"kän
Function: noun
: NEOCONSERVATIVE

Main Entry: neo·con·ser·va·tive 
Pronunciation: "nE-O-k&n-'s&r-v&-tiv
Function: noun
1 : a former liberal espousing political conservatism


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

You fellas are doing a lot of fancy verbal gymnastics to describe a bunch of used car salesmen in black suits posing as our national leaders.


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## Blackadder (Apr 3, 2004)

RSS said:


> +Spong


AARRGGHH!!!!


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

In reponse to an e-mail:


RSS said:


> I *think* of Danville -- much if not most of Contra Costa County -- as being a tad conservative. And I'd imagine my position will *be thought* of as being liberal to extremely liberal by some ... and yet conservative to extremely conservative by others.


That indeed is by comparison. In this sense liberal and conservative -- as used -- are relative.


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