# The Bowtie



## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks to Doctor Who, the bow tie is back in style outside of the eccentric crowd, which is good, because I happen to like bow ties quite a lot and was tired of getting stared at. My task for you is this, gentlemen:

List what you feel does and does not go with a bow tie.

I will start

Does not go with bow tie: Spread Collars. Polo shirts (believe me, I've tried to make it work)


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

nlieb said:


> Thanks to Doctor Who, the bow tie is back in style outside of the eccentric crowd, which is good, because I happen to like bow ties quite a lot and was tired of getting stared at. My task for you is this, gentlemen:
> 
> List what you feel does and does not go with a bow tie.
> 
> ...


I like bowties a lot, especially because they're more practical. What I can't stand, though, are all of the new grad guys I see working downtown in a JAB separates suit, department store bals, and a repp stripe bowtie in their college colors talking loudly about all of the insurance they just sold. I don't know why, but these sort of guys just stink of trying too hard to be the quintessential southern gent "crushing it" at his big boy job in the city.

That said, I think K Street pulls off the bowtie perfectly professionally. I go for that look, but I always feel like I look a bit kitschy wearing a bow in DC unless the tie, and my outfit, are very conservative/understated.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Bow ties look best with point collar or button-down collar shirts.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Topsider said:


> Bow ties look best with point collar or button-down collar shirts.


Or wing collar. Especially to show off the fact that my bow-ties are non-adjustable and not pre-tied crapola.

I know it isn't exactly trad, but I've been seriously considering getting a shirt made with a wing collar in a non-white color and wearing to non-white tie events.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

nlieb said:


> Or wing collar. Especially to show off the fact that my bow-ties are non-adjustable and not pre-tied crapola.


The majority of self-tie bow ties are still adjustable.



> I've been seriously considering getting a shirt made with a wing collar in a non-white color and wearing to non-white tie events.


I wouldn't.

A wing collar is only appropriate on a formal dress shirt, and a formal dress shirt is always white.

If you wear a colored shirt to a formal event, you might as well wear jeans and sneakers.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Topsider said:


> The majority of self-tie bow ties are still adjustable.
> 
> I wouldn't.
> 
> ...


This is why I bounce these ideas off of a forum. My idea was to wear the colored winged collar at evening events not particularly formal. Is appropriate really the same thing as ugly, though? Example: I was been complimented like five or six times on an outfit which consisted of: a brown blazer, tan corduroy pants, a purple raw silk charvet bow tie I picked up on ebay, and the most wrinkled freaking black and red plaid shirt imaginable. Trad? Certainly not. But it worked, my friends, it worked.

Most of the time the trad look is absolutely the way to go. It's time-tested and man approved. But occasionally, through, through experimentation, we can achieve a look that is just as good, albeit only suitable for casual circumstances. In this vein, I suggested the colored wing-collared shirt.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

nlieb said:


> This is why I bounce these ideas off of a forum. My idea was to wear the colored winged collar at evening events not particularly formal. Is appropriate really the same thing as ugly, though? Example: I was been complimented like five or six times on an outfit which consisted of: a brown blazer, tan corduroy pants, a purple raw silk charvet bow tie I picked up on ebay, and the most wrinkled freaking black and red plaid shirt imaginable. Trad? Certainly not. But it worked, my friends, it worked.
> 
> Most of the time the trad look is absolutely the way to go. It's time-tested and man approved. But occasionally, through, through experimentation, we can achieve a look that is just as good, albeit only suitable for casual circumstances. In this vein, I suggested the colored wing-collared shirt.


Appropriate isn't the same thing as ugly. Inappropriate can be the same thing as ugly. Wing collar shirts are always the same thing as ugly. :smile:

I have two rules for sartorial risks. If I come up with some odd combination, and I have the clothes in my closet right now, I'll try it. The worst that could happen is it looks bad and I'm poorly dressed for one day. If, however, I'd have to add something to my wardrobe, then I check it out. I try and find pictures of people wearing what I'm thinking of getting. If they look like tools, I don't do it. I might also post a thread on here. You don't need a thread, because that's part of this thread, but look for pictures of guys after the 1920s looking really good in a wing collar with a suit or jacket. Then show them to me, because I'm genuinely curious to see them.

As to the outfit you describe, did you get told you look good or that you were wearing nice clothes? I tend to think that being told I look good is a compliment for _me_, while being told I'm dressed nicely means I'm being upstaged by wool. It's entirely possible that your set of clothes worked, but it wouldn't work for me. That with a red/white gingham shirt, however, would probably be better than whatever I'm going to wear in a few minutes.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

nlieb said:


> Thanks to Doctor Who, the bow tie is back in style outside of the eccentric crowd, which is good, because I happen to like bow ties quite a lot and was tired of getting stared at.


nleib, despite this comment, it sounds like you want to wear a bow tie to be eccentric, and cultivate a look that will get you stared at. However, if you really are interested in wearing a bow in traditional, non dorky ways ( a la PeeWee Herman or Orville Redenbacher), the long-running "Traditional American Men" thread has numerous examples of how to do it, men such as Archibald Cox. And, of course, the WAYWT thread is full of pre- Dr Who (not sure who he is, I admit) examples. Worth a look, if only to gain assurance that he bow tie has always been part of traditional American dress.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

The Rambler said:


> nleib, despite this comment, it sounds like you want to wear a bow tie to be eccentric, and cultivate a look that will get you stared at. However, if you really are interested in wearing a bow in traditional, non dorky ways ( a la PeeWee Herman or Orville Redenbacher), the long-running "Traditional American Men" thread has numerous examples of how to do it, men such as Archibald Cox. And, of course, the WAYWT thread is full of pre- Dr Who (not sure who he is, I admit) examples. Worth a look, if only to gain assurance that he bow tie has always been part of traditional American dress.


Well, maybe sometimes to be stared at. Mostly, though, that's just an incidental side effect. In fact, when I first started wearing bow ties I was surprised how normal people found it. I really do like the way bow ties look and agree with you that they can be very trad. That's why I posted in this forum. I'll be wearing one to the University Club in Chicago today, and they would kick me out if I tried to wear something that wasn't trad. My comments about wing collars aside, I really do respect the trad look, and normally it's what I aim for. Every once in a wile I like getting stared at, but mostly the eccentricities of my clothing are derived from the fact that I have no good shirts. Plan to fix that soon. And yes, I'll be avoiding wing collars. This thread has convinced me.

BTW: Dr. Who, as any of our British members will tell you, is a very old (older than Star Trek) and campy science fiction show that airs on BBC. Every once in a wile the Doctor gets reincarnated into a new body (really just an excuse to change actors). The current Doctor wears brown tweed and a bow tie.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

nlieb said:


> Well, maybe sometimes to be stared at. Mostly, though, that's just an incidental side effect. In fact, when I first started wearing bow ties I was surprised how normal people found it. I really do like the way bow ties look and agree with you that they can be very trad. That's why I posted in this forum. I'll be wearing one to the University Club in Chicago today, and they would kick me out if I tried to wear something that wasn't trad. My comments about wing collars aside, I really do respect the trad look, and normally it's what I aim for. Every once in a wile I like getting stared at, but mostly the eccentricities of my clothing are derived from the fact that I have no good shirts. Plan to fix that soon. And yes, I'll be avoiding wing collars. This thread has convinced me.
> 
> BTW: Dr. Who, as any of our British members will tell you, is a very old (older than Star Trek) and campy science fiction show that airs on BBC. Every once in a wile the Doctor gets reincarnated into a new body (really just an excuse to change actors). The current Doctor wears brown tweed and a bow tie.


I'll agree with this. I was concerned I'd been a bit harsh in my previous post. The trick to bow ties is, simply put, not being worn by them like a prom date or a hipster bartender. I'm biased against wing collars from my stint as one of those two things. I can't ever tie a bow tie well, either, so I don't wear them much. I also wish I had a few more nice shirts, so I totally sympathize there.

And if your interested, there was a thread on here a while ago about the provenance of the current Doctor's tweeds, which was an interesting read even though I haven't caught much of the current season.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> look for pictures of guys after the 1920s looking really good in a wing collar with a suit or jacket. Then show them to me, because I'm genuinely curious to see them.


I prefer turn-down collars. However, since you asked...

From this thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?85416-Formalwear-the-1920s-look


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> Appropriate isn't the same thing as ugly. Inappropriate can be the same thing as ugly. Wing collar shirts are always the same thing as ugly. :smile:
> 
> I have two rules for sartorial risks. If I come up with some odd combination, and I have the clothes in my closet right now, I'll try it. The worst that could happen is it looks bad and I'm poorly dressed for one day. If, however, I'd have to add something to my wardrobe, then I check it out. I try and find pictures of people wearing what I'm thinking of getting. If they look like tools, I don't do it. I might also post a thread on here. You don't need a thread, because that's part of this thread, but look for pictures of guys after the 1920s looking really good in a wing collar with a suit or jacket. Then show them to me, because I'm genuinely curious to see them.
> 
> As to the outfit you describe, did you get told you look good or that you were wearing nice clothes? I tend to think that being told I look good is a compliment for _me_, while being told I'm dressed nicely means I'm being upstaged by wool. It's entirely possible that your set of clothes worked, but it wouldn't work for me. That with a red/white gingham shirt, however, would probably be better than whatever I'm going to wear in a few minutes.


It was a direct complement of my bowtie. I assumed that they wouldn't have complemented my bowtie if it had clashed with the rest of my ensemble, which is what I was initially afraid of.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Topsider said:


> I prefer turn-down collars. However, since you asked...
> 
> From this thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?85416-Formalwear-the-1920s-look


To be fair, he appears to be wearing a tux, not a suit, but still, great picture


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

nlieb said:


> To be fair, he appears to be wearing a tux, not a suit, but still, great picture


The only people I've ever seen wearing wing collars without a tux are these guys.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Topsider said:


> The only people I've ever seen wearing wing collars without a tux are these guys.


Yeah, I meant sans tux. I actually saw a wing collar shirt with a bowtie and a tweed-ish jacket in an old photo of Charlie Chaplin today, and a wing collar shirt with four-in-hand in _Un Chien Andalou,_ which it seems I will see once every semester until graduation.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

The last time wing collars were worn with daily attire was the late 19th to early 20th century. It would look a little too eccentric.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Jovan said:


> The last time wing collars were worn with daily attire was the late 19th to early 20th century. It would look a little too eccentric.


That seems to be the consensus. Can we move back to the topic this thread was supposed to discuss, that is, bow ties?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Picked these up today in giddy anticipation of race season:


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Somehow, I think novelty works better with bow ties than four-in-hand ties - to the extent that novelty ties work. Nice horse tie, though. I'm thinking of getting a bow tie patterned with octopuses, myself, because I have a really nice four-in-hand tie like that. The octopi are small, so from a distance it looks like you're wearing a tie with polka-dots. It works quite well, and only mildly increases my eq (eccentricity quotient).


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## SCsailor (Jul 2, 2008)

I like bow ties. I think the key to wearing them well is twofold. First, tie it like you really don't care. Second, make sure the width of your bow is proportional to your face. I see far too many guys wearing bow ties that look like they spent twenty minutes getting the knot just so. Also, many make the mistake of tying the bow too wide so that it is out of proportion with their faces.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

SCsailor said:


> many make the mistake of tying the bow too wide so that it is out of proportion with their faces.


The sizing tape is off on many bow ties. I've found that I frequently have to set it at least a full inch smaller than my usual neck size.

I've also noticed that many people get into trouble with the diamond point bow tie, tying it so the end of the loops are even with the base of the diamond points. This gives a particularly elongated appearance to the finished bow. Ideally, the points should extend only slightly beyond the end of the loops.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

SCsailor said:


> tie it like you really don't care...I see far too many guys wearing bow ties that look like they spent twenty minutes getting the knot just so.


With practice, you'll be able to get it pretty much however you want it to look on the first try, just like with a regular tie. I like my four-in-hand with a dimple, and I like my bows with dimples. They never look perfect.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

SCsailor said:


> I like bow ties. I think the key to wearing them well is twofold. First, tie it like you really don't care. Second, make sure the width of your bow is proportional to your face. I see far too many guys wearing bow ties that look like they spent twenty minutes getting the knot just so. Also, many make the mistake of tying the bow too wide so that it is out of proportion with their faces.


I disagree with this. With a normal-width bowtie, I sometimes like tying it slightly narrow so it looks more square. Also, I'm very tall (like 6'4") and so you would expect that a larger tie would look better on me, but it really doesn't. In fact, I prefer skinny bow ties.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

Topsider said:


> The sizing tape is off on many bow ties. I've found that I frequently have to set it at least a full inch smaller than my usual neck size.


That's the truth. On my Brooks and Press bows I size down about an inch as well. But I just got my first PRL, and I had to put it on the biggest possible setting to fit my 15.5" neck - not sure how a person with a slightly bigger neck would even wear the thing. Is this tiny sizing typical of PRL? I hope not, as they usually have some good looking patterns.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

It's not limited to brooks brothers and PRL (whatever that stands for - People's Republic of Lame? People on this forum use them, so it can't be that). Paul Stuart actually makes bowties that run too large. The one bow tie by them I own I wear at the 16.5 mark, whereas my neck is a 17.5. At 16.5, which I think anyone in this forum will agree is a pretty average neck size, the tie measures 35 3/4 inches long. Most non-adjustable bow ties are either 34 or 35 inches long (but I get mine custom-made, so mine are the perfect length for me: 35 3/4").


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

nlieb said:


> PRL (whatever that stands for - People's Republic of Lame?


Polo Ralph Lauren. Although your interpretation would certainly be applicable to many of their offerings these days.


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## SCsailor (Jul 2, 2008)

nlieb said:


> I disagree with this. With a normal-width bowtie, I sometimes like tying it slightly narrow so it looks more square. Also, I'm very tall (like 6'4") and so you would expect that a larger tie would look better on me, but it really doesn't. In fact, I prefer skinny bow ties.


We might be talking about two different things. I'm saying the horizontal distance from end to end should be about the same as the width of your face. What you don't want to do is who tie the bow tie such that it's wider than your face.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

SCsailor said:


> We might be talking about two different things. I'm saying the horizontal distance from end to end should be about the same as the width of your face. What you don't want to do is who tie the bow tie such that it's wider than your face.


I'm just saying that sometimes it looks ok or even quite excellent for the bow tie to be narrower then your face. Consider especially the case of the man with a humungous head. In fact, the head doesn't even have to be steroid-huge for this to be problematic. I'm just saying that it's a less than or equal to proposition. As to it being wider then one's face - God no, how horrid!


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

SCsailor said:


> We might be talking about two different things. I'm saying the horizontal distance from end to end should be about the same as the width of your face. What you don't want to do is who tie the bow tie such that it's wider than your face.


Most bow ties (straight-cut being the exception) have their optimal size built into the way they're cut. If you tie them too long or too short, they lose their symmetry. It's hard to explain, but easy to spot.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Topsider said:


> Most bow ties (straight-cut being the exception) have their optimal size built into the way they're cut. If you tie them too long or too short, they lose their symmetry. It's hard to explain, but easy to spot.


I know, that's what I've been trying to get at (although, as I noted, sometimes I will purposely tie mine too short). It isn't about the face as it is about the optimal length _for a particular tie._


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

nlieb said:


> I know, that's what I've been trying to get at (although, as I noted, sometimes I will purposely tie mine too short). It isn't about the face as it is about the optimal length _for a particular tie._


 A little bit one way or the other really isn't going to matter. A way-too-short bow is more difficult to tie, while a too-long one tends to be easier. That's probably why you see more people doing the latter.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Topsider said:


> A little bit one way or the other really isn't going to matter. A way-too-short bow is more difficult to tie, while a too-long one tends to be easier. That's probably why you see more people doing the latter.


Ah, but I meant tying the bow shorter, not using a shorter tie.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

nlieb said:


> Ah, but I meant tying the bow shorter, not using a shorter tie.


Unless you are just talking about making a looser knot or leaving a little slack around your neck, the only way to tie the bow shorter is to use a shorter tie.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

I don't find that to be the case.
Case in point: this tie is actually about an inch too short on me, but I'm able to make it look slightly enlongated by allowing the rear "wings" of the knot to be too short (note, I am tall and have a big head, which is why it doesn't look that long in the image):








Also, my apologies on the poor quality of the knot, I did it in a hurry and so was unable to adjust the dimples the way I normally do.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

nlieb said:


> this tie is actually about an inch too short on me, but I'm able to make it look slightly enlongated by allowing the rear "wings" of the knot to be too short


I prefer to keep the bow fairly symmetrical, so I would simply adjust the tie to its proper length.

This is a pretty typical example of how mine usually turn out. I'm not suggesting this is what you should do, merely showing what I do. Bow ties are very well suited to individual expression.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

I think we have, again, misunderstood each other. I meant assymetrical from back to front, not from left to right.

Mine quite often look like that as well, that is, with the rear bow larger than the front: sometimes I even allow the rear bow to be even larger than in yours.

I agree wholeheartedly that bow-ties lend well to individual expression. That's part of what I love about them.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

By "symmetrical," I meant front-to-back also. Left-to-right symmetry is a given.

The too-small rear bow happens when the tie is too short, as it did with this one the first time I wore it. I don't always bother to fix it if I'm in a hurry.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Is that one cotton? I've only ever bought silk. I suppose cotton goes better with plaid.

BTW, does anyone here know why bowties never come in wool and four-in-hands do?


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Topsider said:


> I prefer to keep the bow fairly symmetrical, so I would simply adjust the tie to its proper length.
> 
> This is a pretty typical example of how mine usually turn out. I'm not suggesting this is what you should do, merely showing what I do. Bow ties are very well suited to individual expression.





> The too-small rear bow happens when the tie is too short, as it did with this one the first time I wore it. I don't always bother to fix it if I'm in a hurry.


But my point is you can change the shape of the knot by varying how much longer one end is then another at the beginning, before you make the loops. The symmetry of the knot is not just about the tie being too long or too short. But if you want a symmetrical knot and, like me, you use non-adjustable bow ties, yes, you're limited in the shapes you can achieve with the knot.

Wow, you just convinced me to buy adjustable ties again. My wallet thanks you (you can buy them in bulk because they aren't made custom, so they're cheaper).

BTW, does it give you the same smug sense of superiority it gives me that you can tie a bow tie and 90% of the public cannot? I tried to teach my dad once, and he gave up.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

nlieb said:


> Is that one cotton? I've only ever bought silk. I suppose cotton goes better with plaid.
> 
> BTW, does anyone here know why bowties never come in wool and four-in-hands do?


Yes, it's cotton. Bow ties come in all types of fabrics, including wool, like this one from the Cordial Churchman.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Looks like I need to expand my collection again!

My God, and they have linen bow ties too? How haven't I heard of this shop before?


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Would it be bad to wear a bow tie with a shirt that has a high, narrow collar, ie one with two buttons for closure?


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

nlieb said:


> Would it be bad to wear a bow tie with a shirt that has a high, narrow collar, ie one with two buttons for closure?


You might want to ask that question in the fashion forum.


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## rlfsoccerdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Three of the ties I recently bought, one brooks brothers and two from Pendleton, were all too small for my 17" neck. I am having to do some extension work to make them long enough. This is the first time I have really had a problem with ties being "big" enough. Although I did see a couple of ties at a RL polo store that looked to melike they would have the same problem, so I passed on them.


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## Bernie Zack (Feb 10, 2010)

nlieb said:


> I'm just saying that sometimes it looks ok or even quite excellent for the bow tie to be narrower then your face. Consider especially the case of the man with a humungous head. In fact, the head doesn't even have to be steroid-huge for this to be problematic. I'm just saying that it's a less than or equal to proposition. As to it being wider then one's face - God no, how horrid!


Many years ago the manager at Hymie's Haberdashery in St. Paul, MN, advised me that my bowtie would look better if it were to be tied not wider than the length between my eyes. He told me that such was the traditional optimal horizontal width of the tie, and that I could attain this "shortening" of the width by adjusting the neck size down from 17 to about 15.5. I took his advice, and by golly, he was right. I do believe that the optimal width of the bowtie should be the width of your eyes, otherwise it tends to look clown-like if it is too wide.


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## Bernie Zack (Feb 10, 2010)

rlfsoccerdad said:


> Three of the ties I recently bought, one brooks brothers and two from Pendleton, were all too small for my 17" neck. I am having to do some extension work to make them long enough. This is the first time I have really had a problem with ties being "big" enough. Although I did see a couple of ties at a RL polo store that looked to melike they would have the same problem, so I passed on them.


That is odd. I have a 17 1/2 inch neck and I have never experienced that problem.


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## rhynes1 (Aug 12, 2012)

I've just recently been experimenting with bow ties and I think I've heard it three different ways...that it shouldn't extend beyond the collar, the face or the eyes. Personally I think it looks ok somewhere between the eyes and the sides of the face. But then I also understand the points made about the shape of the tie itself. I personally like a larger knot, and making the tie wider makes a smaller knot.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

"Outside the eyes, inside the ears." 

Wish I had an illustration for this, but I don't.


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## Blessings (Nov 6, 2011)

I think bowties are rather nice and can be more easily worn in the summer (although never without a jacket). The worst part of a bowtie; it takes me the better part of an hour and a decent amount of cursing to get them correctly tied.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Topsider said:


> Bow ties look best with point collar or button-down collar shirts.


I beg to differ. Wearing a button-down with a bow tie is a thing in the US (if it is I was unaware) but I've always found it very, very inadequate. Same for point collars, I think they look just ghastly with bow ties. Point collars were develoved to complement the line of a thinner tie. I wouldn't wear a bow tie that reveals the points of the collar beneath, or only just slightly, like so: https://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i198/dpihl/F3031-400.jpg
As a matter of fact I do think bow ties go best with semi-spread collars -and, of course, poke collars: https://www.blacktieguide.com/Vintage/Shirts/1887_Correct_Dress_bookPDF_edit.gif


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Anthony Charton said:


> I beg to differ. Wearing a button-down with a bow tie is a thing in the US (if it is I was unaware) but I've always found it very, very inadequate. Same for point collars, I think they look just ghastly with bow ties.


As you noted, this forum is devoted to an American style of dress. Nothing against the Brits here, but it's hardly surprising that few of you "get it."


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Orsini said:


> "Outside the eyes, inside the ears."


perfect description... i was taught that no part of the bow should go past where your lapels start... use them as your guide (like a belt with a four-in-hand)...


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Anthony Charton said:


> I beg to differ. Wearing a button-down with a bow tie is a thing in the US (if it is I was unaware) but I've always found it very, very inadequate. Same for point collars, I think they look just ghastly with bow ties. Point collars were develoved to complement the line of a thinner tie. I wouldn't wear a bow tie that reveals the points of the collar beneath, or only just slightly, like so: https://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i198/dpihl/F3031-400.jpg
> As a matter of fact I do think bow ties go best with semi-spread collars -and, of course, poke collars: https://www.blacktieguide.com/Vintage/Shirts/1887_Correct_Dress_bookPDF_edit.gif


Dude, you're in the wrong forum. Youre preaching veganism in a room full of carnivores. You may get an amen on the "other" forum, not here.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

maximar said:


> Dude, you're in the wrong forum. Youre preaching veganism in a room full of carnivores. You may get an amen on the "other" forum, not here.


To you and Topsider: I don't pretend to impose British rules anywhere- I've seen plenty of BD worn with bow ties in the UK -The current Dr Who himself is the foremost champion of these practise so I'm not even sure what the consensus on either side of the pond is. The point is, I don't care much for rules when it comes to aesthetics and I've always found a BD or a point collar worn with a bow tie to be ghastly in whichever part of the world. So in short, it's just an opinion, not a burst of_ guys don't do that because we don't accept it in the Old World._ Besides, the whole point of a common communicative space is hardly general agreement. I'm not interested in people massively agreeing with my ideas; I'm after sharing them, learning about thoese of others, and discussing them all (in amiable terms). Now I do apologise if my latest post did come across abruptly.

This being said, what may this 'other forum' be ?

Also, to contribute, here's a list of things I believe are a good idea to combine with a bow:

An odd tweed jacket, an earthy-coloured jumper and a crisp white shirt;
If wearing a coloured, patterned shirt, a contrasting white collar;
A club or penny collar. I personally wouldn't (because not my style), but a friend of mine who wavers between preppy and trad with great taste sometimes wears a subtly patterned bow tie tucked under the curves of a white club collar and it looks bloody good.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

nlieb said:


> Thanks to Doctor Who, the bow tie is back in style outside of the eccentric crowd, which is good, because I happen to like bow ties quite a lot and was tired of getting stared at.


I'm going to pause the current path of thread here, with a confused blank stare, and ask,

"What does that Question even mean? Eccentric crowd? Doctor Who? What?"


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Anthony, I think the narrow bow tie worn with an oxford button down is an acquired taste. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that for those of a certain age, raised or educated in New England, it has a totemic power which makes taste irrelevant. Find a photo of Archibald Cox and you might get an idea of what I'm talking about, though there's no reason to think that a member of another tribe would feel that way.


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## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

I don't have anything dressier then an OCBD in my lineup and like to wear bows. I have no problem wearing an OCBD, a bow tie. khakis and a blazer. The only east coast cities I've visited were New York and Miami so, I geuss it just happened.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

The Rambler said:


> Anthony, I think the narrow bow tie worn with an oxford button down is an acquired taste. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that for those of a certain age, raised or educated in New England, it has a totemic power which makes taste irrelevant. Find a photo of Archibald Cox and you might get an idea of what I'm talking about, though there's no reason to think that a member of another tribe would feel that way.


Agreed.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

salgy said:


> perfect description... i was taught that no part of the bow should go past where your lapels start... use them as your guide (like a belt with a four-in-hand)...


And of course I filched it out of a book... I never heard any old saw about lapels.

Outside the corner of the eye and out to about that little flap that covers the ear canal is about the best I can describe it.

In the US, the bow tie with the button-down collar is OK. With tweed three-piece, it is a very good look for academics. Actually, what is not generally known is that some Yankees avoid certain collar styles as they are more appropriate for a subject of the Queen to wear.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Anthony Charton said:


> ...I don't pretend to impose British rules anywhere...


Nothing wrong with hearing about British practice. We all have to recognize that practice between the two is different in some details.

"Two peoples divided by a common sartorial heritage."


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

I have to take issue with the op's assertion that regular appearances on Doctor Who will make something appeal to people who aren't "eccentrics," at least in the U.S. Are there Doctor Who fans out there who wouldn't be willing to self-apply that term, or at least a near-synonym? There are none in my experience.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Orsini said:


> I never heard any old saw about lapels.


wasn't a saw... when i learned how to tie a bow tie, salesman handed me back my jacket and said "never let the knot extend past your lapels".

i like yours better :biggrin2:


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Blessings said:


> I think bowties are rather nice and can be more easily worn in the summer (although never without a jacket). The worst part of a bowtie; it takes me the better part of an hour and a decent amount of cursing to get them correctly tied.


Those videos on Beauties Ldt are helpful.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> I have to take issue with the op's assertion that regular appearances on Doctor Who will make something appeal to people who aren't "eccentrics," at least in the U.S. Are there Doctor Who fans out there who wouldn't be willing to self-apply that term, or at least a near-synonym? There are none in my experience.


I don't seem to understand what a low budget British fantasy show from the 70's has to do with a supposed resurgence of bow ties (I never noticed any lack of people wearing them)? Can someone please explain this to me?


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

rwaldron said:


> I don't seem to understand what a low budget British fantasy show from the 70's has to do with a supposed resurgence of bow ties (I never noticed any lack of people wearing them)? Can someone please explain this to me?


They're making new episodes now, which have a cult follow among nerdy college kids and computer engineers. The latest iteration of the Doctor wears a tweed coat, unistripe buttondown, and various bowties. I haven't watched it in like three seasons, but I believe that, at one point, he defensively declares "bowties are cool," which has become a bit of a catchphrase. I think it's one factor in getting a set of people who didn't previously wear bowties in them, along with magazine features on "geek chic" or however people got that phrase into circulation. Somebody described my style with that term the other day, and it was probably the hardest compliment I've had to take in years, until a moment later when somebody else said "no, it's more GQ."


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> They're making new episodes now, which have a cult follow among nerdy college kids and computer engineers. The latest iteration of the Doctor wears a tweed coat, unistripe buttondown, and various bowties. I haven't watched it in like three seasons, but I believe that, at one point, he defensively declares "bowties are cool," which has become a bit of a catchphrase. I think it's one factor in getting a set of people who didn't previously wear bowties in them, along with magazine features on "geek chic" or however people got that phrase into circulation. Somebody described my style with that term the other day, and it was probably the hardest compliment I've had to take in years, until a moment later when somebody else said "no, it's more GQ."


I did not realize that a new Doctor was wearing a bowtie. Furthermore, and shocked that this has had any impact on American fashion outside of "nerdy college kids and computer engineers" (as says the Civil Engineer). In fact, it is the least nerdy people I know that wear the bow ties; it isn't the engineers, its the men with successful careers that belong to exclusive lunch clubs; its men who have a certain air of confidence about them.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Really ? To me, the bow tie in the US had become a very preppy East Coast thing as well as a hipster trend, something along those lines: 

When talking about very academically-driven American or Canadian institutions, or the Ivies at large, a common character in the British student folklore (or where I live anyway) is the well-established, quirky, suitably aged professor who wears bow ties with jumpers, but I don't actuallu know how big a thing is is among academics, although Archie Cox is a very good example of what I mean.(I've never seen any of my tutors of professors in Britain wearing a bow tie on an normal day.)


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Anthony Charton said:


> Really ? To me, the bow tie in the US had become a very preppy East Coast thing as well as a hipster trend, something along those lines:


I wouldn't characterize Southern Proper (or Southern anything, for that matter) as a "hipster trend," although it's certainly capitalizing on the Preppy revival. The North and the South are sartorially distinct, and hipsters are generally found predominantly up North (esp. in/around NYC) and out West (hippie hipsters, for the most part), although there are isolated pockets in "artist's communities" (like Asheville, NC) and the like.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I think your "British students' folklore" stereotype of bowtied American university professors has a kernel of truth in it, though it's a rare to see any kind of necktie on academics anymore. The association of Ivy colleges and bowties is more cultural than academic anyway. Wearing a bowtie to the office, or the lunch club, makes the statement "I attended an Ivy League college."

Incidentally, one of my favorite bowties is called a "Churchill" (dark blue with white dots). In fact, there are any number of pictures that show him wearing one. Perhaps it's the result of his American genes.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Thank you both for enlightening me. I have a few of these navy dotted models and they do look bloody good.


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## nlieb (Mar 20, 2012)

Blessings said:


> I think bowties are rather nice and can be more easily worn in the summer (although never without a jacket). The worst part of a bowtie; it takes me the better part of an hour and a decent amount of cursing to get them correctly tied.


Keep at it, you'll get there eventually! By now I can do it without a mirror in less time than it takes for me to tie a regular tie. Like with many things, it's all about practice.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


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