# J.Crew shell cordovan



## oaklandish (Feb 21, 2007)

Looks like J.Crew is rolling out a shell cordovan penny loafer.

"The ultimate penny loafer: a collector's item in a superior quality, extra-durable Cordovan leather with a classic ox-blood finish. Italian leather upper. Leather lining and sole. Import."

It's priced at $350. Anybody know who is making this for them? Hard to tell from the website, but it looks like it might be a split toe. Here's the link:

*https://tinyurl.com/5vmwsk *


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## Distinctive (Apr 26, 2007)

They may be horse leather but they appear too thin (and too inexpensive) to be shell cordovan.


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## oaklandish (Feb 21, 2007)

I don''t know. Their calf penny loafers are $150, so these new loafers are clearly at a premium price for J.Crew. And they are certainly marketing them as shell cordovan. I think it is more likely that they found a cheaper source for shell than that they are deceptively marketing. Of course, whether that shell is good quality remains a question.


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

If they're "Italian leather" they're not shell cordovan. They're cordovan-colored. My guess is that J. Crew will be unloading these at $199.00 pretty soon.


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## oaklandish (Feb 21, 2007)

Again, this is a funny way to describe cordovan-colored calf:

"superior quality, extra-durable Cordovan leather with a classic ox-blood finish."

If this isn't shell, it is horribly deceptive advertising. "Extra-durable"? Capitalized "C"? I give this outfit a bit more credit than that. The reference to "Italian leather" is a bit weird, granted, but I'm not ready to write these off as calf just yet.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

If they don't use the word "shell" then they're not.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

AlanC said:


> If they don't use the word "shell" then they're not.


I'm still surprised that a company can market something as "cordovan" when they're just referring to the color. I'd think the Horse's [Butt] Association would be a little more strict.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Note that the color listed in the description is "ox blood," not "cordovan," so it seems as though they're not marketing the color as "cordovan." That, or they're selectively using "cordovan" to describe the color in the item's title, and are then doing a little bait-and-switch to call it "ox blood" in the description. So it's either really cheap shell that may not be worth buying (except on deep discount), or it's really underhanded advertising that many will not want to support no matter the discount price.


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## Distinctive (Apr 26, 2007)

Cordovan does not = shell cordovan

cordovan = horse leather

There is no way to make that kind of stitching on shell cordovan


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

So anyway...

Does anyone like the looks of them? I think they owe more to the Weston 180 than the Weejun, at least in terms of appearance, but I'm happy to see a company aiming for the right colour (no black or purple/burgundy in sight) and spirit (classy penny loafers).


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

I'm not wild about the split toe to be honest


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## oaklandish (Feb 21, 2007)

I just got off the phone with J.Crew. After some long holds and some discussions with a supervisor, I was told it was "genuine cordovan leather," not just cordovan-colored. She couldn't tell me who the manufacturer is, but was going to look into it and send me more info. She didn't use the magic term "shell," of course.

I think the jury is still out. Would J.Crew make a non-shell cordovan, cordovan shoe, and then charge more than twice as much as they do for their calf loafer? Does anyone make a cordovan shoe that is not shell-cordovan? 

I have a feeling that the description of this product on the website will be revised within 24 hours.


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## zarathustra (Aug 24, 2006)

For those of us who actually know what cordovan leather actually is -- this copy is quite unclear. 

The fact that they call it Italian leather is not dispositive that it is not shell. I believe that Martegani works with cordovan, as do a few others. Meaning, if the cordovan hides are finished there -- it is Italian.

While all of us know that the Made in Italy is just bogus puffery, the public still believes it implies quality. 

Interested to see the outcome however.


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## The Continental Fop (Jan 12, 2007)

Whatever the facts are about this shoe's leather, that photo does not match the description given on J. Crew's site. It is obviously not of a shell cordovan loafer with a leather sole, but rather, a calf-or-worse loafer with a rubber sole. 

Setting aside the issue of why anyone would take J. Crew's "dress" shoes seriously -- nope, tried to, I really did, but I can't set it aside, I just can't, because anyone over the age of 25 who's impressed by them just hasn't been exposed to quality dress shoes -- does anyone REALLY think that a J. Crew store supervisor has even the slightest clue what shell cordovan leather is? Have any of you guys ever BEEN in a J. Crew lately? 

I will be shocked if J. Crew is really doing a genuine shell cordovan loafer, doubly shocked if it's only $350, triply shocked if it's even mildly decent. But I feel safe in saying I won't be. They're obviously not doing a shell cordovan loafer. It will be a cordovan colored loafer, cheap and shoddily constructed like their other shoes, and the only reason for this mistaken description is that these days, Wikipedia = fact-checking. A 20 yr old web monkey got an email from a 20 yr old catalog editor telling him to add a "shell cordovan loafer" because the catalog editor didn't know what "cordovan" meant when he got the order info from the supplier so he Googlepedia'd it and probably caught a few threads from this forum given the amount of shell chatter here. 

I would love to be wrong about this. But I'm not.


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

You are not only right, I'm sure, but entertainingly so. 

And by the way, Allen Edmonds, an outifit that does employ grownups who know a few things, manufactured belts a short while back, labeled "Shell Cordovan" made of a single piece, which under scrutiny turned out to be a related but different form of horse matter, not, strictly speaking, 'shell cordovan.' J. Crew's cautious choice of words may not be inadvertent or ill informed but liability-proof.


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## oaklandish (Feb 21, 2007)

I'm also interested to see the outcome. The customer service representative I spoke with predicatably had no clue about the difference between cordovan color and cordovan leather. But I don't think that the fact that the retailer is J.Crew necessarily dictates the answer here. J.Crew has collaborated with Red Wing on a boot, and could presumably do the same thing with a quality shoe-maker. (Hell, you can buy a vintage $8,000 Rolex through J.Crew.) How they could do so at this price-point, I don't know, and definitely engenders skepticism. The only pair of J.Crew dress shoes I've ever owned (many years ago) were crummy corrected grain.


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

Not Shell Cordovan.....you can see the fibers around the cuttings. 

If I am correct with the source, it's not really their fault. There is a guy around Pisa who is selling 'cordovan' leather (forget if he is actually using the word 'shell' or not) and the clothing guys who merchandise shoes for lines like this take them at their word. We got an order from a private label account to use just this.....we told them it was BS, they didn't believe it, we got some samples from the tannery and showed them it was calf tanned to appear like SC. Funny thing is it's good calf - we are using it for some ladies boots, I think.

Anyway, Martegani and Rider Boot ONLY USE HORWEEN GENUINE SHELL CORDOVAN.

To us, there is no substitute.


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

Now this is a Shell Cordovan loafer.....un lined, to boot -

https://riderboot.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/rbps1-6-2.jpg

-----sorry, couldn't resist.


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## zarathustra (Aug 24, 2006)

Ron: 

Thanks for the info. If it came across wrong, i did not mean to imply anything negative about your products, which IMO are top notch. 

As per the WebMonkey:


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## zarathustra (Aug 24, 2006)

rider said:


> Now this is a Shell Cordovan loafer.....un lined, to boot -
> 
> https://riderboot.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/rbps1-6-2.jpg
> 
> -----sorry, couldn't resist.


I assume that is the #6, no? That was gorgeous in person.


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

zarathustra said:


> Ron:
> 
> Thanks for the info. If it came across wrong, i did not mean to imply anything negative about your products, which IMO are top notch.
> 
> As per the WebMonkey:


No, not at all....just wanted to make sure no one misunderstood.....and thanks!!

R


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Whata buncha crup.


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

I wrote the following email to J. Crew to see if they would respond:



> While looking at the Premium Cordovan Penny Loafers, I had a question. What exactly do you mean by Cordovan? Is it cordovan-colored? Genuine Shell Cordovan leather, as used by Alden, Paul Stuart, Crockett & Jones, and Brooks Brothers for their $$$$ loafers (which to my knowledge is only tanned by the Horween company in Chicago)? Or is it just horsehide, which could technically be called Cordovan, but is different than Shell Cordovan?
> 
> I am a member of an internet clothing forum that has been discussing these shoes for a few days and we have been unable to procure a straight answer thus far. Another member apparently called and the customer service rep didn't really understand the question. I think a number of the members would be VERY interested in these shoes, but we need a clearer idea of what we're actually purchasing.
> 
> Thank you very much


Thus far no response, though they promise an answer in 24 hours...


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## The Continental Fop (Jan 12, 2007)

Let me save you some time. Here's what your going to get back from them, if you get anything at all:

"Dear Sir,

Like, I totally got your letter about the Corolla shoes or what-ever, and like, J. Crew totally appreciates your interest in our bitchin' Chinese cashmere sweaters and all the other stuff that totally looks rad on sinewy teenage catalog models but totally horrendous on pear-shaped middle-age doofi who read internet forums about men's clothing. So like, totally have a great day, and thanks for shopping at J. Crew! Can I interest you in a J. Crew credit card? You get 15% off your first purchase!

Yours,
Heather Twizzler
Consumer Relations"



videocrew said:


> I wrote the following email to J. Crew to see if they would respond:
> 
> Thus far no response, though they promise an answer in 24 hours...


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## arnaud (Apr 10, 2007)

*J. Crew... Shell Cor-doh-vahn...*

...Biff-EE... Ox-EE-MO-Ron


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

@ TCF -- thanks for the chuckle.

@ All -- my memory is that back when men's shoes came in three colors that they were black, brown, and that cordovan and ox-blood were used interchangeably to describe color.

Question: When did they start using shell cordovan instead of calf for men's shoes? My guess is almost always and I just didn't know it.

Cheers, Jim.


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

The Continental Fop said:


> Let me save you some time. Here's what your going to get back from them, if you get anything at all:
> 
> Yours,
> Heather Twizzler
> Consumer Relations"


I know, I know, I don't have high hopes here. Maybe the fact that it's taking them so freaking long to respond means that they're sending it to someone who actually knows what the heck they're talking about.


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## The Deacon (Nov 25, 2006)

Early on wasn't shell primarily used for military boots and such items as holsters?


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

videocrew said:


> Maybe the fact that it's taking them so freaking long to respond means that they're sending it to someone who actually knows what the heck they're talking about.


J. Crew responded to my to my email question regarding whether or not the shoes were shell cordovan:

1. They indicated that they could not immediately answer the query, that they would refer it to someone who could, and that they would relay the answer back to me when received.

2. Their reply was prompt, direct, and businesslike. They may not be able to come up with an answer this week, but they left me confident that they took me and my question seriously. Of course, I approached them in a businesslike manner: by an email with my name, company address, company telephone numbers, and company email address included.


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

bd79cc said:


> Of course, I approached them in a businesslike manner: by an email with my name, company address, company telephone numbers, and company email address included.


I included all that info too, I just didn't feel any need to share it with everyone here.


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## TBOWES (Nov 29, 2007)

well-kept said:


> If they're "Italian leather" they're not shell cordovan. They're cordovan-colored. My guess is that J. Crew will be unloading these at $199.00 pretty soon.


well-kept has it right - If it's Italian Leather then it's probably not shell - my quess is it's Cordavan color only.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

videocrew said:


> I included all that info too


Sounds like they're giving inconsistent responses, then. I wonder how many people are questioning them on the cordovan issue?


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

bd79cc said:


> J
> 1. They indicated that they could not immediately answer the query, that they would refer it to someone who could, and that they would relay the answer back to me when received.


I was once contemplating writing an article on acronyms. As part of my research I called the corporate headquarters of MCI and asked the person who anwered the phone "What does MCI stand for?" Her answer... "I don't know but I'll find someone who does." I stayed on the line.

It took TWENTY MINUTES before I had a response - Microwave Communication Industries. Twenty minutes at corporate headquarters, to find anyone who actually knew. Personally, I wouldn't stand on one leg waiting to get a shell cordovan response from J Crew.


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

I got the same answer as bd79cc:



> Your inquiry is important to us and we sincerely apologize for the delay in responding to your email. We do not currently have this information to provide you with. I have sent an email to our corporate office and will personally follow up with you once the answer is received.


I guess I was sufficiently business-like, but they are still not sufficiently informed.


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## Got Shell? (Jul 30, 2008)

Even if it were genuine shell, I'm not sure I'd risk getting a shoddily constructed pair of shells even for that price.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Robert Talbott makes cordovan (horse hide) belts that are not "shell" cordovan. On the back of the belt, it says cordovan rather than horse hide (and of course it does not say "shell cordovan"). It's confusing, but I don't think that RT or J. Crew are trying to mislead anyone.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

Whats the over and under on when they figure out what they are selling? You might expect at least one person in the organization would know.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

I'll go take a look a them at lunch time. I'm around the corner from the Mad Ave store.


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## The Continental Fop (Jan 12, 2007)

Okay, I'm a big enough man to admit when I am wrong. And brother, was I wrong about these J. Crew shell cordovan loafers. As fate would have it, Millard Drexler, the new CEO of J. Crew, heard about this thread and my negative comments and sent a car service to bring me to corporate HQ earlier today for a private demo of the new shoes. 

Stunning. That's all there is to say. Absolutely stunning. The attention to detail, the old-world craftmanship -- it's all there at a level I've never before witnessed in a pair of shoes at any price. To see these new J. Crew shells, to hold them in your hand, to slip them onto your lucky feet, all of this is to think to yourself "This, truly, is what it must feel like to be a ruler of men." 

As soon as we sat down in J. Crew's conference room, Drexler dropped a bombshell on me: J. Crew secretly owns not only Alden shoes, but also the Horween Leather Company which controls most of the world's supply of shell cordovan leather. They did these deals several years ago when Drexler came on board to reboot J. Crew, and Alden and Horween are forbidden to speak publicly about the change in ownership for 25 years. I know this because at the start of the meeting, Drexler told me, "Hold onto your ass, son, cause you're not gonna believe this," and then Skip Horween and Barry Alden walked into the room dressed head to toe in J. Crew distressed chinos and striped dress shirts, and then they danced slow and very close together and quite frankly it was a little uncomfortable for me to watch but as Drexler put it, in many cultures around the world men dance with other men and even hold hands with other men and it doesn't mean they're "half ***", it's just a show of respect.

After the dance was over, Drexler had Horween and Alden give me the details about the new shell cordovan loafers. This is what they told me:

1. The new J. Crew loafers are indeed genuine shell cordovan, secretly sourced from Horween and secretly crafted by Alden. Horween's best A-grade of shell will be reserved for the J. Crew loafers, while Alden's own shell shoes will make do with B and C-grade hides. This explains why recent Aldens have been dyed more darkly than they used to be -- it's to hide the imperfections in the lesser hides they're forced to use now that J. Crew has the A-grade shell all to itself. 

2. The new loafers will indeed be priced at just $350/pr., which means J. Crew will actually lose $1,000 on each sale because -- are you ready for this? -- the shoes actually cost them $1,350/pr. to manufacturer! That's not the retail price, that's the raw parts and labor cost of crafting these amazing loafers. Drexler firmly believes that by selling this shoe as a loss leader, J. Crew can re-establish itself as the leader in traditional high-end men's clothing. 

3, The new loafers will be available in pretty much any shade of brown the customer wishes. J. Crew's web site will have a secret password-protected VIP area for purchasers of the loafers, with a browser-activated color calibrator that automatically adjusts whatever screen you've got for perfect color accuracy, then it's just a matter of clicking anywhere on a 360-degree color wheel to choose the exact shade of tan, chocolatey brown, reddish oxblood, and all points in between. 

All three men were wearing the new loafers -- Alden's were old-school Color 8 (and the most beautiful, deep, rich Color 8 shell I've ever seen, honestly, they make Mac's shells look like plastic Payless shoes), Horween's were this incredible reddish Mahogany, and Drexler's were such an ungodly gorgeous, heretofore unseen shade of Perfect Mid-Brown that I fell to my knees in awe just to get a closer look at them. They were the perfect combination of cigar, whiskey, mahogany, and Color 8, and they filled the room with magic and light. I shrieked in a high-pitched voice, "What color are those?! I have to have a pair!!" but Drexler laughed and said, "Sorry son, that particular shade of brown is a custom blend that's been permanently blocked on the web site color wheel. People might land on the pixel right next to the shade I've got, but it won't be the same, and if I showed them to you side by side you'd understand why just one pixel off makes all the difference." Then he said, "Aw what the hell," and had Horween bring out a pair of the loafers in a shade of brown that was just one pixel on the color wheel off from Drexler's, and you know something? He was right. The other brown looked like turd, to be honest. He must have seen the look on my face, though, because then he said, "Look kid, I'll tell you what. Give me your email address and I'll give you the login that lets you land your mouse on the magic pixel. When you log in, your mouse pointer will automatically pull to the magic pixel, in fact, because I had them do it this way so I can order these shoes without having to squint at the screen." 

But none of this would matter much if the shoes didn't feel comfortable, and that's where the story gets seriously weird. Because the J. Crew shell loafers feel like no other shoe I've worn before. To call them ungodly comfortable is selling them short. They feel like you're barefoot and naked Czech models are massaging your feet with their chests. I know this because Drexler had some naked Czech models brought in for just this purpose, and I'm telling you, these loafers feel exactly the same. It's uncanny, and according to Horween and Alden, it's on purpose. Drexler wanted his shoes to give him that same sensation when he wasn't able to order it in. It's such a radical departure from any other loafer, shell or calf, that you're never going to go back to your Aldens or your EGs or whatever you've got once you try on a pair of these new J. Crews. Forget it. Game over. 

Listen, I know I was dismissive of J. Crew and the idea that the company was capable of pulling off something like this. I may have even been a little disrespectful toward J. Crew in some of my other comments. And for all of this, I deeply, deeply apologize. I was completely, unequivocally, 100% wrong, and I retract and regret everything I posted previously in this thread. J. Crew has pulled off a miracle with their new $350 shell cordovan loafers, and we are all lucky to be able to buy and enjoy these remarkable shoes when they start trickling into stores and online sometime in the fall. 

If you are planning to buy another pair of loafers, don't. If you already ordered a pair of Aldens, call them up and cancel the order. Alden will pretend to be pissed at first, but mention the J. Crew loafers and they will back off immediately and give you your refund. As for me, I am putting all of my Aden shells on eBay and I don't care if I get ten bucks a pair for the whole lot. I will wear no shell loafer ever again except for my perfect brown J. Crews, which I should receive in the next week or two via special order authorized by Drexler himself. As soon as I receive my shoes, I will post pics and some 1080P HD video of the Czech models as well. 

This is a great day for lovers of shell cordovan, loafers, and AAAC. God bless you all, and God bless the United States of America!


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

The Continental Fop said:


> Okay, I'm a big enough man to admit when I am wrong.


You are also a very good writer. Thanks for the smile.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

well-kept said:


> I was once contemplating writing an article on acronyms. As part of my research I called the corporate headquarters of MCI and asked the person who anwered the phone "What does MCI stand for?" Her answer... "I don't know but I'll find someone who does." I stayed on the line.
> 
> It took TWENTY MINUTES before I had a response - Microwave Communication Industries. Twenty minutes at corporate headquarters, to find anyone who actually knew. Personally, I wouldn't stand on one leg waiting to get a shell cordovan response from J Crew.


I hate to ruin your book idea but M.C.I. is not an acronym - it is an abbreviation. An acronym is an abbreviation that makes another word. For example, N.A.T.O is an acronym because it is pronounced as a word.


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

Stringfellow said:


> I hate to ruin your book idea but M.C.I. is not an acronym - it is an abbreviation. An acronym is an abbreviation that makes another word. For example, N.A.T.O is an acronym because it is pronounced as a word.


You mean you can't pronounce MCI??

It was an idea for a Talk piece in the NYer - that we had become a three-letter society - which I abandoned almost as soon as it raised its unpronounceable head. But thanks for the clarification.


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## Got Shell? (Jul 30, 2008)

I'll give you $20 for your Alden shells...


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

well-kept said:


> You are also a very good writer. Thanks for the smile.


Perhaps TOO good. The Cordovan-Industrial Complex will not likely stand for its secrets being disseminated so publicly. I'm sure he can even now hear the commando-soled footsteps behind him.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

well-kept said:


> You mean you can't pronounce MCI??
> 
> It was an idea for a Talk piece in the NYer - that we had become a three-letter society - which I abandoned almost as soon as it raised its unpronounceable head. But thanks for the clarification.


Read closely. You can pronounce M.C.I. but not "as a word." You say "M.C.I. is the worst phone company ever," not "Mickey is the worst phone company ever." You say "Ney-toe" not "N.A.T.O."


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

Stringfellow said:


> Read closely. You can pronounce M.C.I. but not "as a word." You say "M.C.I. is the worst phone company ever," not "Mickey is the worst phone company ever." You say "Ney-toe" not "N.A.T.O."


I was joking.


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