# Kiton in London?



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

On Clifford Street (between Bond Street and savile Row) I think I saw a new shopface being built with the title Kiton. It may have just been a contractors sign does anyone know more.

I've just Googled and found a planning application for 14a Clifford Street from a Mr Maurizio Maresca of Ciro Paone Spa, Viale Delle Industrie, 80022, Arzano (NA)


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

its not a fitters sign - Kiton are indeed coming to the UK...


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

will i need to sell a kydney to buy a sports jacket ?


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Probably both.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

They have been working on this for some time,
I think the original plan was to be up and running last fall.
A kidney?
Or your first born! :--)


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

i think ill pass , for that kinda wonga id be popping in gieves n hawkes , anderson and sheppard or kilgour etc ... in fact all three of em for the price of a kiton.

do they do cheap baseball caps ??


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

If I had easy access to London, I'm not sure why I'd even consider a Kiton. There are so many good bespoke options available for the same price range.

--Andre


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

Andre Yew said:


> If I had easy access to London, I'm not sure why I'd even consider a Kiton. There are so many good bespoke options available for the same price range.
> 
> --Andre


You beter watch out for Artisan Fran!


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

While this may hold true for the bulk of the people here, 
the concept seems to appeal to a different crowd, to say the least.

Last year I watched a man enter the shop, buy a full length cashmere winter coat and two sports jackets in less time than I took to pick out a few pair of socks. It was a question of minutes he was in the shop.

I can not see that type of buyer enjoying the bespoke process.
He was a perfect frame, no excess anywhere and was very sharply dressed. I think hew would find bespoke a poor investment of his time.

This fall I watched another man walk in, buy 5 suits and leave in time he took to take two sips of wine during a luncheon. He left before he could finish his glass. I know this man, one of the largest in banking in the city.
I don't think he would sit still long enough to see the process of bespoke through.

To each their own,
at least they all were dressed very well in their own way!



Andre Yew said:


> If I had easy access to London, I'm not sure why I'd even consider a Kiton. There are so many good bespoke options available for the same price range.
> 
> --Andre


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

ahhh....true power is having time...


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> While this may hold true for the bulk of the people here,
> the concept seems to appeal to a different crowd, to say the least.
> 
> Last year I watched a man enter the shop, buy a full length cashmere winter coat and two sports jackets in less time than I took to pick out a few pair of socks. It was a question of minutes he was in the shop.
> ...


Sorry, but Kiton from the rack does'nt fit the normal body but fits nobody. It may not looks bad, but it is not meant for a body but mannekin which is why it wastes money when compared to tailored bespoke. Anybody who thinks that the rack or MTM fit like bespoke is just not understanding, lying or not has tried both.

Sorry.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

scaramanga said:


> Sorry, but Kiton from the rack does'nt fit the normal body but fits nobody. It may not looks bad, but it is not meant for a body but mannekin which is why it wastes money when compared to tailored bespoke. Anybody who thinks that the rack or MTM fit like bespoke is just not understanding, lying or not has tried both.
> 
> Sorry.


You have totally missed the concept of the issues at play in the equation mentioned above.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> If I had easy access to London, I'm not sure why I'd even consider a Kiton. There are so many good bespoke options available for the same price range.


I would think the same thing actually.



> Sorry, but Kiton from the rack does'nt fit the normal body but fits nobody.


As Reagan would say, there they go again...ic12337:


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> You have totally missed the concept of the issues at play in the equation mentioned above.


Yes and Trump wear Brioni. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?

It fits him like a turd and so does Kiton but nobody wants to admet because is very expensive and cheek.

OTR from nobody fits. It is not meant to fit bodys Fran, it is meant to not not fit. That is idea of RTW and MTM not to not fit.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

scaramanga said:


> Yes and Trump wear Brioni. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?
> 
> It fits him like a turd and so does Kiton but nobody wants to admet because is very expensive and cheek.
> 
> OTR from nobody fits. It is not meant to fit bodys Fran, it is meant to not not fit. That is idea of RTW and MTM not to not fit.


Very cheek. LOL.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Who is this Fran person he is referring to?


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> Who is this Fran person he is referring to?


Sorry Fan. I thought it was Fran for the minute.

Hear, I am from Napoli and know about the reptuattons of Kiton there. We laugh a lot at the US for buying this stuff as nobody will buy at home. They mike somemyth about this and that but not any is true. You can buy many better jacket and certainly Kiton is no very Napoli.

I have knowen prople who worked for Kiton and they say all factory for American and some Germans but no Italian wold ever where. Only thing with as worse reputashon is Borrelli.

Sorry to be burster of your bobble.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

scaramanga said:


> ...Hear, I am from Napoli and know about the reptuattons of Kiton there. We laugh a lot at the US for buying this stuff as nobody will buy at home. They mike somemyth about this and that but not any is true. You can buy many better jacket and certainly Kiton is no very Napoli.
> 
> I have knowen prople who worked for Kiton and they say all factory for American and some Germans but no Italian wold ever where. Only thing with as worse reputashon is Borrelli.
> 
> Sorry to be burster of your bobble.


I would be more than happy to debate this with you, it could be rather interesting to see the regional diversity.

But to allow us to further understand your view of a perfect garment before the debate begins, please post three pictures of yourself in a suit or jacket that you feel represents a true bespoke work or art and a perfect fit. Please name the tailors who created these works. Some detail shots of these jackets to show the workmanship as well as fit will also help to understand your interpretation of a beautiful bespoke project.

I look forward to seeing your selection of your top three pieces.


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> I would be more than happy to debate this with you, it could be rather interesting to see the regional diversity.
> 
> But to allow us to further understand your view of a perfect garment before the debate begins, please post three pictures of yourself in a suit or jacket that you feel represents a true bespoke work or art and a perfect fit. Please name the tailors who created these works. Some detail shots of these jackets to show the workmanship as well as fit will also help to understand your interpretation of a beautiful bespoke project.
> 
> I look forward to seeing your selection of your top three pieces.


Well, I am not the rich guy that some are and don't have any nice jacket like this too show. I can tell you for sure that in Naples there are many sarti better than Kiton and costing less. The only one that comes close to in price of Kiton is Rubinacci but the quality is the other world adn is the style. A list of other sarti that would have you start are: Solito, Pirozzi (2), Panico, Marigliano and these are the known ones whom avvertise. There are a lot of the others who do not. All better and less soldi.

Some day I hope to have from these Maestri but today am in Miami trying to earn my own money to go back to Napoli.

These use hands and not machines to make jackets.


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## Full Canvas (Feb 16, 2006)

scaramanga said:


> It fits him like a turd and so does Kiton but nobody wants to admet because is very expensive and cheek.


Kiton is not the only one with some cheek around here!

_________________________________


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

Andre Yew said:


> If I had easy access to London, I'm not sure why I'd even consider a Kiton. There are so many good bespoke options available for the same price range.
> 
> --Andre


Who in London would you go to for a Neapolitan suit? Who in London handstiches shirts? Kiton is not for everyone and bespoke is not for everyone. Luckily, if you live in a big city, you can choose just what exactly is for you. Why should Londoners only have access to British clothing.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

emorel98 said:


> Who in London would you go to for a Neapolitan suit? Who in London handstiches shirts? Kiton is not for everyone and bespoke is not for everyone. Luckily, if you live in a big city, you can choose just what exactly is for you. Why should Londoners only have access to British clothing.


an english gentleman is the highest form of existence ! :icon_smile_big:

savvy row everytime ...


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

emorel98 said:


> Who in London would you go to for a Neapolitan suit? Who in London handstiches shirts?


Rubinacci. Okay, I don't know whether their shirts are handsewn, but I'm sure that they're beautifully done.


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

jcusey said:


> Rubinacci. Okay, I don't know whether their shirts are handsewn, but I'm sure that they're beautifully done.


They are.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I bet Rubinacci looks quite cheek.


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> I bet Rubinacci looks quite cheek.


We Napoletani prefer others than Rubinacci. He is to Inglese like the names of his store. Very elegant but not the same as some of the more locals.

More counts and commendanti go to see Rubinacci than the local folk but maybe he is the best of all just too much money. Not like Kiton who makes clothes fro the pretend emporers and others.

I am trying to help the brothers out with what is real and what is finto.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

emorel98 said:


> Who in London would you go to for a Neapolitan suit? Who in London handstiches shirts? Kiton is not for everyone and bespoke is not for everyone. Luckily, if you live in a big city, you can choose just what exactly is for you. Why should Londoners only have access to British clothing.


Based on what I've seen, it would have to be Rubinacci. The one sample I got to examine is about the most beautiful piece of men's clothing I've seen in person.

Handstitching in shirts is overrated (note: not unimportant, but overvalued), and I don't think Kiton is necessarily all that representative of Neopolitan style. For that kind of money, you can get a better and more authentic product elsewhere if you're after the Neopolitan look, not that there is actually one Neopolitan style.

--Andre


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

scaramanga said:


> We Napoletani prefer others than Rubinacci. He is to Inglese like the names of his store. Very elegant but not the same as some of the more locals.
> 
> More counts and commendanti go to see Rubinacci than the local folk but maybe he is the best of all just too much money. Not like Kiton who makes clothes fro the pretend emporers and others.
> 
> I am trying to help the brothers out with what is real and what is finto.


perhaps you could recomend some top napoletini tailors and reference with picutes too, i am sure most i for one would love to see a thread like this!


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## Windsurf (Nov 27, 2006)

*description by house*



scaramanga said:


> Well, I am not the rich guy that some are and don't have any nice jacket like this too show. I can tell you for sure that in Naples there are many sarti better than Kiton and costing less. The only one that comes close to in price of Kiton is Rubinacci but the quality is the other world adn is the style. A list of other sarti that would have you start are: Solito, Pirozzi (2), Panico, Marigliano and these are the known ones whom avvertise. There are a lot of the others who do not. All better and less soldi.


If you have time I would enjoy reading a description of the firms you listed. One by one tell us about their style of cut, quality of materials used, etc. Grazie.


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

scaramanga said:


> We Napoletani prefer others than Rubinacci. He is to Inglese like the names of his store. Very elegant but not the same as some of the more locals.
> 
> More counts and commendanti go to see Rubinacci than the local folk but maybe he is the best of all just too much money. Not like Kiton who makes clothes fro the pretend emporers and others.
> 
> I am trying to help the brothers out with what is real and what is finto.


I am not from Napoli, but I agree with you.

To me, Rubinacci is good for men that like more London, traditional or vintage style (they have a lot of vintage fabrics in comparison to modern fabrics like Kiton uses too). I appreciate the quality of their garments, but their style is not exactly what I want.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

luk-cha said:


> perhaps you could recomend some top napoletini tailors and reference with picutes too, i am sure most i for one would love to see a thread like this!


I can't speak for our "friend", but here is a Rubinacci sportcoat on yours truly

And here is a Solito coat courtesy of Noveporte:

And Marigliano (same source):

And Pirrozzi (again Noveporte both coats Pirozzi):

As Andre says, there are many ways to skin a cat over there. Solito and Rubinacci are pretty similar but Rubinacci makes a shorter, more draped coat. Marigliano is very lean for Naples and too much so for me. It is more like a Borrelli or something. As DragOn says, Rubinacci makes a bit more of a vintage cut. I like that and am a firm believer that the best Italian tailors are the most English. Rubinacci and Caraceni in Rome would be two great examples.

All very cheek indeed.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

If it is not too cheeky of me to say so,
Iammatt, that is a very beautiful jacket!


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

iammatt said:


> I can't speak for our "friend", but here is a Rubinacci sportcoat on yours truly
> 
> As Andre says, there are many ways to skin a cat over there. Solito and Rubinacci are pretty similar but Rubinacci makes a shorter, more draped coat. Marigliano is very lean for Naples and too much so for me. It is more like a Borrelli or something. As DragOn says, Rubinacci makes a bit more of a vintage cut. I like that and am a firm believer that the best Italian tailors are the most English. Rubinacci and Caraceni in Rome would be two great examples.
> 
> All very cheek indeed.


thanks out of all i like yours the best! how many do you have by them in total?


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

iammatt said:


> I can't speak for our "friend", but here is a Rubinacci sportcoat on yours truly


I think the Rubinacci fabrics,style, and craftsmanship fit your personal style perfectly. I always enjoy the pictures you post.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

its a beautiful jacket but patch pockets always make me whince .


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

english_gent said:


> its a beautiful jacket but patch pockets always make me whince .


I couldn`t imagine Neapolitan sports jackets without patch pockets. Of course they look good with other options (flaps, jetted) but patch pockets would be the default choice.

The shape of the patch pockets on Iammatts jackets are very nice in my opinion. I also enjoy the rounded shaped Attolini pockets.


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

iammatt said:


> Rubinacci and Caraceni in Rome would be two great examples.


That is exactly what Cesare Attolini said in an interview I read in the past (except he was referring to his brother at Rubinacci).


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

scaramanga said:


> Hear, I am from Napoli and know about the reptuattons of Kiton there. We laugh a lot at the US for buying this stuff as nobody will buy at home. They mike somemyth about this and that but not any is true. You can buy many better jacket and certainly Kiton is no very Napoli.
> 
> I have knowen prople who worked for Kiton and they say all factory for American and some Germans but no Italian wold ever where. Only thing with as worse reputashon is Borrelli.
> 
> ...


:icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee:

Hurray! Somebody dares to say the emperor is naked!!!!

I have been saying this about Kiton on AAAC for a while but nobody seems to believe me. The logic appears to be that if it costs an arm and a leg it must be good. I for one would now classify Kiton in the same ranks as Armani - and Rolex to boot :icon_smile_big:

I am afraid I tend to agree with the indictment of Borrelli as well.

Alex Kabbaz has burst the bubble about RTW "Neapolitan" so-called "handmade" shirts and it is high time the same thing happened with RTW "Neapolitan" suits.

And the audacity of Kiton to try to sell RTW suits at prices similar or even higher than Anderson and Shepperd bespoke is truly risable. One hopes Londoners have the wisdom to see through this charade.

Thank you for introducing some sanity to AAAC scaramanga. Grazie molto!


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

Sator said:


> :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee: :icon_hailthee:
> 
> Hurray! Somebody dares to say the emperor is naked!!!!
> 
> ...


yes the loaded britisher will see through it.

will a gent max his credit card at off the peg from kiton or pop over to the row to be measured , dazzled with an infinite variety of exotic material and have a world class , handcrafted suit from 'insitiutions' steeped in history and tradition?

it doesnt take much consideration does it ?

gieves n hawkes , henry poole , A&S , kilgour or kiton?? hhmmmmph my mind is torn .... NOT !

ill run a critique if you like... if all AAAC forum members pass round the hat and pay for me to get measured up at A&S then spend the same in kiton when it opens .. ill do a comparison for ya ! call me selfless but im prepared to put myself through this for you ! :icon_smile:


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

scaramanga said:


> We Napoletani prefer others than Rubinacci. He is to Inglese like the names of his store. Very elegant but not the same as some of the more locals.
> 
> More counts and commendanti go to see Rubinacci than the local folk but maybe he is the best of all just too much money. Not like Kiton who makes clothes fro the pretend emporers and others.
> 
> I am trying to help the brothers out with what is real and what is finto.


I'm in agreement with you that Kiton, when compared to most southern Italian tailored clothing, is a rip off. And while they use very nice fabrics paying $4.5K for a RTW sportcoat is somewhat ridiculous.

If we make the bold assumption and say that most that buy Kiton are aware of Solito and others I still think they are major issues. For one you have the additional cost associated with traveling to Italy, you have the wait times and I think in no small measure you also have the language barrier. So while I will acknowledge that Kiton makes an inferior and downright expensive garment I think its also fair to say that the feasibility of effectively using one of the masters you mentioned becomes very low. Just be happy your in the know and will hopefully one day have the means to take advantage of arguably the best tailors in the world. And let us fat Americans go on buying overpriced Kiton, whats our alternative? JC Penney?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Off topic, but...

It appears that iammatt and I share a problem, if not a tailor. His jacket (and mine) have darts in the front that go all the way down to the bottom seam. This wreaks havoc with pattern matching on the pockets (or pocket flaps). The jacket I'm wearing today has about the same solution: match the middle of the pocket flap and not the leading edge. It does take a bit of getting used to, however.

Over on the LL, if that ever reopens, there is a picture of a stunning checked tweed made by a Japanese tailor with no darts in front. Supposedly there is some alchemy worked under the arm that accomplishes the same thing.

Back on topic: I like the silhouette of the grey Marigliano flannel. Great shoulders!


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

whnay. said:


> ......So while I will acknowledge that Kiton makes an inferior and downright expensive garment..........


Whnay, Sator,

I would really like to see what criteria is used to classify a Kiton as inferior. The price is personal and subjective. If you object to paying that price that is a totally valid point of view, but that does not make it inferior.

Can you list some specifics of what details in a Kiton jacket make it inferior?

The style is different than most, but many are starting to copy it more and more, so there must be something appealing about the style, but none the less.

Part of the problem with the love/hate, brand/tailor relationships here is that many can not acknowledge the point of view, wants and needs, or values other than their own.

At least when I met the people from Kiton the very first time, wearing Samuelsohn, one could say a far cry from Kiton, they had the grace and class to not criticize it or other houses, and I have never heard them speak a harsh word towards anyone.

I don't want to hear why you can't afford Kiton, 
or why you can't justify it, or why it does not fit your style, that is all personal choices.

The question is, specifically, what makes the garment inferior?


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Simply the fit. A bespoke Rubinacci is going to fit better than an OTR Kiton jacket. This holds true for just about anybody. And at the end of the day a jacket could be made from the rarest of fabrics found on the planet but if doesn't fit properly it is an inferior garment.

Of course in this case we're splitting hairs because Kiton is at the upper echelon of OTR clothing. In many ways comparing them to a bespoke made garment is unfair. Its just not apples to apples.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Concordia said:


> Off topic, but...
> 
> It appears that iammatt and I share a problem, if not a tailor. His jacket (and mine) have darts in the front that go all the way down to the bottom seam. This wreaks havoc with pattern matching on the pockets (or pocket flaps). The jacket I'm wearing today has about the same solution: match the middle of the pocket flap and not the leading edge. It does take a bit of getting used to, however.
> 
> ...


Concordia-

I actually like the dart to go all the way down. I know what you mean that it makes pattern matching difficult, but I think that it gives a lot of character.

I have seen the pictures on the LL and agree that they look great. However, I remember seeing jackets at tailors in Florence and while the fronts were super clean, you had a very big diagonal line on the side. I guess that it is just a give and take.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

whnay. said:


> Simply the fit. A bespoke Rubinacci is going to fit better than an OTR Kiton jacket. This holds true for just about anybody. And at the end of the day a jacket could be made from the rarest of fabrics found on the planet but if doesn't fit properly it is an inferior garment.
> 
> Of course in this case we're splitting hairs because Kiton is at the upper echelon of OTR clothing. In many ways comparing them to a bespoke made garment is unfair. Its just not apples to apples.


Thank you Whnay,

I agree you can not compare OTR to good bespoke. 
It just is not a fair comparison. But there is a lot of bad bespoke out there too, and RTW (in general) sure beats mediocre bespoke. 
Bespoke just is not for everyone.

One can not say that OTR fits no one well, that is just not accurate.
Samuelsohn has about 18 different suit bodies styles. Some I hate, some fit like a glove and I love. Other than a slight slant on one side, I have a pretty good 40r body (thank god) and with slight tailoring, I have a few favorites that fit very well.

Fit does not make the garment inferior. Bad fabrics and or shoddy workmanship would. That is not the case with Kiton. I enjoy each for what they are and can embrace the differences without knocking the others for what they are.

I never liked the fit and feel of the few Oxxford's I had tried,
until I tried the new Mason suit body. I just love that jacket now and will slowly get a few of them.

Vive la difference!


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Iammatt,
Do you know what the fabric was in the suit pictured:

And Marigliano (same source):

It looks gorgeous.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Well I'd say its unfair for you to lump me in with Sator as a Kiton basher, I'm far from it. I think in this regard we are talking past each other.

That being said when it comes time for me this year to buy suits I'll be going to Rubinacci or A&S because the slight premium I pay over the likes of OTR Kiton is a good trade for reasons of proper fit. I respectfully disagree that inferiority does not pertain to garment fit, in clothing it seems essential. All the worksmanship and luxorious fabric aside a jacket can't drape over you like a tent, in doing so it would no doubt be inferior to a jacket that fits like a glove.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

whnay. said:


> .... I think in this regard we are talking past each other...... I respectfully disagree that inferiority does not pertain to garment fit, in clothing it seems essential. All the worksmanship and luxorious fabric aside a jacket can't drape over you like a tent, in doing so it would no doubt be inferior to a jacket that fits like a glove.


Perhaps we are,
what I was trying to say is that bad fit is an issue that can occur anywhere, even in bespoke if not done perfectly, as good fit can be achieved with venues other than just bespoke (depending on one's frame).

Good luck with the Rubinacci or A&S mission, it should be great experience.

Edit:

I don't mean to lump you in with the kiton bashers, I was just asking the two of you the same question.
I fully understand and can appreciate your point of view given the explanation.
Thank you.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

iammatt said:


> Concordia-
> 
> I actually like the dart to go all the way down. I know what you mean that it makes pattern matching difficult, but I think that it gives a lot of character.
> 
> I have seen the pictures on the LL and agree that they look great. However, I remember seeing jackets at tailors in Florence and while the fronts were super clean, you had a very big diagonal line on the side. I guess that it is just a give and take.


Now that I can think of it as adding character, I am relieved---


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> Perhaps we are,
> what I was trying to say is that bad fit is an issue that can occur anywhere, even in bespoke if not done perfectly, as good fit can be achieved with venues other than just bespoke (depending on one's frame).
> 
> Good luck with the Rubinacci or A&S mission, it should be great experience.


I think is you who is not sure about fit. It is diverse between good fit and non-bad fit. No RTW suit jacket will give good fit because is not sculpted for the body of you. It can give not bad fit and not show bad things but not ever really good. It is just not possible.


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

One thing that I've learned on these forums is that certain brands will get flogged regardless. Borrelli is the posterchild, but this is the first Kiton bashing that I've seen. Some of the typical Borrelli statements is "it's not real Neapolitan", "it does not fit anyone". I am not sure what any of this means. I have Borrelli and love the fit pretty much off the rack (sleeves need to be shortened). It is the best fitting jacket I own. I have done MTM, never full bespoke. Can Rubinacci make me a better looking jacket, sure! Do I have the money and time to go to Italy, get fitted a couple of times, and go through that process? No. It is subjective whether Borrelli is overpriced or not. I think Edward Green is overpriced relative to other brands but does that make Greens crap?

As for Kiton, saying that is inferior is a very big stretch. They have wonderfully made products which are very expensive. Some choose to go the bespoke route, others choose to go into a Kiton store and walk out with a wardrobe, neither is more correct than the other. Saying Kiton or Borrelli fits no one well OTR is a very big fallacy. Also, I've seen A&S and Henry Poole up close. I've seen pics of Mahon. Given the choice, I would pick Borrelli OTR ahead of them simply because Borrelli offers me the style that I am comfortable with and the otehrs do not. I am not going to sit here and say that Borrelli is as well made as those but it ain't crap either. 

At the end of the day, we pick what we like. For every brand you can find a cheaper or better made alternative but we purchase as much with our eyes as we do with our heads. British bespoke does nothing for me at this stage.

BTW, Matt I love the jacket and the guy in the DB in your pic looks very uncomfortable.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

I agree with you emorel98, inferior is the wrong word to associate with Kiton.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> So while I will acknowledge that Kiton makes an inferior and downright expensive garment I think its also fair to say that the feasibility of effectively using one of the masters you mentioned becomes very low.


People seem quick to jump on the bash Kiton bandwagon yet we see little or no evidence that there is a lack of substance. I've been doing Kiton MTM for many years and I have never had a serious problem with anything. There is a ton of handwork and the suits look great, garner me compliments frequently, and the MTM fittings have been dead on at our Neimans in Atlanta. I can understand the shock at some of the prices and even see that another quality garment by Oxxford may represent a better value but to rip Kiton on craftsmanship just seems incorrect.

Are there better suits to be had? I'm sure. I'd love to try Rubinacci soon. But to say that Kiton makes an inferior garment goes against my 20+ years of following artisans around the globe. Look at Zegnamtl's photographs. They speak volumes about the quality of the garment.

I'd like to make another point. There is much talk about Kiton RTW. This seems a bit odd to me as I know most of Neimans customers at this level do mostly or exclusively MTM. Some of my fittings were done but Massimo but Antonio Matteis did three of my suits. When you have a senior craftsman travel over from Italy for the fitting it's hard to complain as the results are perfect. The "small company family feel" of Kiton allows this to happen. I once ordered shirts at Louis Boston from Fabio Roh, one of the shirt line managers. No language barrier and the shirts turned out beautifully.

Bottom line is that it seems unfair to me to bash an artisan of very good reputation without real evidence based on someone who knows someone at the Kiton factory. Certainly Ciro deserves a fairer treatment than this.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Another point about Kiton as long as I am on my soapbox...

Kiton is as Neopolitan as they come. The factory makes everything and is located just outside the city. They are considered by many to have popularized the Neopolitan shoulder. They have partly created and significantly popularized a renaissance of craftsmanship among Naples brands. They have been great promoters of both Sutor Mantellasi and Lattanzi enabling those firms to become bigger business.

And they have done all this will good customer service, style, and class.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Lee

How long have you been getting kick backs from Kiton reps?


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> Another point about Kiton as long as I am on my soapbox...
> 
> Kiton is as Neopolitan as they come. The factory makes everything and is located just outside the city. They are considered by many to have popularized the Neopolitan shoulder. They have partly created and significantly popularized a renaissance of craftsmanship among Naples brands. They have been great promoters of both Sutor Mantellasi and Lattanzi enabling those firms to become bigger business.
> 
> And they have done all this will good customer service, style, and class.


Ma, che dici Fan?

Neopolitan shoulder??? Bet Kiton makes somehting more Americanata than this. So much padding and padding. and also not done like we do in really Naples. Neapolitan as they come? Please. Nice fabrics, but nobody in Naples wants this stuff. Neapolitan is what the men in the city wear not what some avvertiser says. Kiton is Kiton not is Napoli.

As far as quality, ma che vuoi? Any one born in Napoli knows that the chest must be hand stitched and the collar is to also be. Kiton uses machine for both and this makes of suspect. There is no depate this. It is fact. If I prove to you that canvas and lapel are machine stiched will you renounce your fals believe?

I don't know this Massimo. I he from Napoli or probably a marketing from Milano. Is Antonio Matteis a sarto or businessman?

I suggest Solito more than Rubinacci unless you like to look like Brit when obviously you are Napoli obsessed.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

What, someone can't be a fan of a good brand here?

Besides, I would not ask for kickbacks, just another suit.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> So much padding and padding.


What??? There's hardly any padding compared to American suits. You are also factually wrong on the collar as Kiton does much handwork on the collar. Scaramanga, you need to get your facts straight.

Antonio was head tailor for a while and is now a senior manager for Kiton.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

emorel98 said:


> Can Rubinacci make me a better looking jacket, sure! Do I have the money and time to go to Italy, get fitted a couple of times, and go through that process? No.


Rubinacci already has a store in London.

--Andre


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

Andre Yew said:


> Rubinacci already has a store in London.
> 
> --Andre


And I'm in New York


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> What??? There's hardly any padding compared to American suits. You are also factually wrong on the collar as Kiton does much handwork on the collar. Scaramanga, you need to get your facts straight.
> 
> Antonio was head tailor for a while and is now a senior manager for Kiton.


Scaramanga has made so many ridiculous statements that he lost all credibilty on this issue. Unless he produces an official document showing him as the spokesperson for all things Neapolitan, I'm ignoring him.


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

emorel98 said:


> Scaramanga has made so many ridiculous statements that he lost all credibilty on this issue. Unless he produces an official document showing him as the spokesperson for all things Neapolitan, I'm ignoring him.


Ciao minchia. Un bacione .

Collar is machine. Look with your eye. This is no hand stitch that looks like little broked triangle. Admit it.

Inside lapel look the same. I know and you do'nt or wo'nt admit.

Padding is less than America but not real shoulder of Naples. Read the aritcle at Andys to know. He knew what he is talking of.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

emorel98 said:


> And I'm in New York


Rubinacci travels to NYC twice or even three times a year.


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## couch (Mar 8, 2005)

iammatt said:


> Concordia-
> 
> I actually like the dart to go all the way down. I know what you mean that it makes pattern matching difficult, but I think that it gives a lot of character.
> 
> I have seen the pictures on the LL and agree that they look great. However, I remember seeing jackets at tailors in Florence and while the fronts were super clean, you had a very big diagonal line on the side. I guess that it is just a give and take.


Not only a diagonal line, but even with a lot of iron-shaping of the cloth the fronts will still be, and look, boxier than with front darts. The Japanese coat on LL is shaped, but has less waist suppression than Matt's Rubinacci. For a man with a modest drop this may not be an issue, but for someone as fit as Matt it would be a serious trade-off: uninterrupted checks or a gracefully fitted coat. I asked about this at the basted fitting for a windowpane check suit at Poole and my cutter said he could do it, but he didn't think I'd like the result. I'm glad I listened to him.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

emorel98 said:


> And I'm in New York


Yes, and sorry to be pedantic, but I was writing in the context of this thread's original subject, before it branched off into a general referendum on Kiton. 

--Andre


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

Andre Yew said:


> Yes, and sorry to be pedantic, but I was writing in the context of this thread's original subject, before it branched off into a general referendum on Kiton.
> 
> --Andre


I understand and in the context of the thread's original subject, my point is that different strokes for different folks. There is no one brand/tailor that is the answer for everyone.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I am amazed at how many of us are pulled in by this same poster, whose only function in life is to pull your chain with an assumed internet charicature complete with fake bad grammer and syntax.

Obviously this is the way he gets his kicks but why in the world do we rise to the bait so often?

Perry


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

pkincy said:


> I am amazed at how many of us are pulled in by this same poster, whose only function in life is to pull your chain with an assumed internet charicature complete with fake bad grammer and syntax.
> 
> Obviously this is the way he gets his kicks but why in the world do we rise to the bait so often?
> 
> Perry


Like i saed. Because you need to defend the fake image that makes you pay up for Kiton. The truht sets you free.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

ic12337:


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

"Can't we all just get along?"

-- RJ Fran


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Emorel,

Exactly the point I was trying to make by asking for precise specifics.

I did not even want to touch Borrelli yet, like you, I have a few and I love them.

Remember the thrashing last year, it amounted to:

Someone said that someone said their neighbor's plumber's nephew had a Borrelli and the fabric wore out to quickly....

People are insanely jealous of the niche market Ciro has carved for himself.

Like it or not, capable or willing to justify it or not,

"but it ain't crap."

You can verify this story with Andy himself, he was seated next to me.

After the visit to the Oxxford factory, a few of us went for breakfast.
An AAAC member came over and introduced himself. After a few moments, I asked him what he was wear and told him I thought it was incredible piece. He looked great, it suited his style beautifully and the fit was perfect.

I had no way of knowing what this man was wearing,
he replied, "Kiton".

You either embrace the style and philosophy or not,
Neither is right or wrong,

"but it ain't crap."!



emorel98 said:


> One thing that I've learned on these forums is that certain brands will get flogged regardless. Borrelli is the posterchild, but this is the first Kiton bashing that I've seen. Some of the typical Borrelli statements is "it's not real Neapolitan", "it does not fit anyone". I am not sure what any of this means. I have Borrelli and love the fit pretty much off the rack (sleeves need to be shortened). It is the best fitting jacket I own. I have done MTM, never full bespoke. Can Rubinacci make me a better looking jacket, sure! Do I have the money and time to go to Italy, get fitted a couple of times, and go through that process? No. It is subjective whether Borrelli is overpriced or not. I think Edward Green is overpriced relative to other brands but does that make Greens crap?
> 
> As for Kiton, saying that is inferior is a very big stretch. They have wonderfully made products which are very expensive. Some choose to go the bespoke route, others choose to go into a Kiton store and walk out with a wardrobe, neither is more correct than the other. Saying Kiton or Borrelli fits no one well OTR is a very big fallacy. Also, I've seen A&S and Henry Poole up close. I've seen pics of Mahon. Given the choice, I would pick Borrelli OTR ahead of them simply because Borrelli offers me the style that I am comfortable with and the otehrs do not. I am not going to sit here and say that Borrelli is as well made as those but it ain't crap either.
> 
> ...


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Andre Yew said:


> Yes, and sorry to be pedantic, but I was writing in the context of this thread's original subject, before it branched off into a general referendum on Kiton.
> 
> --Andre


A shame, that did digress rather far, for which I am partially to blame, please forgive, I just get tired of the concept "every chance to bash is a good chance" I guess. :--(


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> You either embrace the style and philosophy or not,
> Neither is right or wrong,
> "but it ain't crap."!


More wisdom from Zegnamtl. :teacha:


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> You either embrace the style and philosophy or not,
> Neither is right or wrong,
> 
> "but it ain't crap."!


You are right Ermenegildo. I am wrong to say that Kiton is crap. It is the wrong words and I take them back.

What I want say is that Kiton makes suits from very nice fabric but in very factory make manor. They are not artisan but not really crap or something. The problem that we Italians and especially Napoletani see is two:

1. You pay many times more for something of quality lower than it can be.

2. It makes a bad figure of the tailors of Naples to think that what Kiton looks like is really Napoli style.

I apologize for the stronger language but I am Italian and get excitement.

This price problem go especially for example with suit of K50. It is same suit that every tailor in Naples make. Rubinacci, Solito, Formosa all make same as K but for no reason Kiton comes to three or four or five or eight time price. It seems me ridiculous since if anything quality on K maybe is less than some of these aboves.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

No apologies necessary Z --- you were keeping a cool head and trying to hold a rational discussion. Actually, it's kind of funny how often these threads turn up. There's something similar on SF right now, too.

--Andre


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> It makes a bad figure of the tailors of Naples to think that what Kiton looks like is really Napoli style.


Please explain what makes a suit in true Naples stye then if Kiton is not it.


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> Please explain what makes a suit in true Naples stye then if Kiton is not it.


Thanks a thousand for the question.

To be a ture suit of Naples, it must be made in *Sartoria* for the client. It is no diffrent than Savile Row. Just because you have Abercrombe and Finch on Savile Row does not make Ab and Fin suit of Savile Row.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

RJman said:


> "Can't we all just get along?"
> 
> -- RJ Fran


Indeed!
Champagne for everyone!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> it must be made in *Sartoria* for the client


What does this mean in plain English?


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> What does this mean in plain English?


It mean that it must be make for the client *bespoke* from a tailor shop and not factory. Just like Savile Row needs same.

K50 is really Napoli suit from what I hear. Use that for definition because it is what other Napoli tailors do. Exackly.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

We hit 80!

The legal limit of posts bashing Kiton in one thread.
At this point cross border internet bashing laws require us to change the victim.

Shall we move to Borrelli for the next 80 thrashes, I mean posts in the thread?


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

*Kiton is a bit different...*



scaramanga said:


> This price problem go especially for example with suit of K50. It is same suit that every tailor in Naples make. Rubinacci, Solito, Formosa all make same as K but for no reason Kiton comes to three or four or five or eight time price. It seems me ridiculous since if anything quality on K maybe is less than some of these aboves.


...from the bespoke houses that you list in the sense that it supports a comparatively large international secondary retailer market. This means bureacracy, inventory management, advertizing costs, etc. that the pure Neapolitan bespoke maker does not incur, and it includes essentially supporting the large tertiary market of items that end up in off-price retail and online outlets.

One might hope for economies of scale, but the costs above in addition to the intrinsic limitations of an essentially (although not completely) hand-made product probably limit what can be achieved by simply being a larger producer, as Kiton is compared to the others that you list.

Just to put my cards on the table: I wear a variety of Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, Chester Barrie, and Barbera/St. Andrews. Nearly all are in interesting fabrics, and some look quite good on me. But, none quite match my bespoke items from a Savile Row tailor who works in the A&S style, even though those items are (so far...) made in the most conservative monochrome fabrics. So, my experience is in line with your premise. I have a physique that is readily served by ready-to-wear (e.g. https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=62969 ), but even so, the bespoke items work for me at a higher level of success.

I admit that I cannot tell if your identity is real or assumed, but your basic points are very entertaining. I am enjoying this thread.

Regards,
Bill


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

OK I am a self confessed Kiton basher :icon_smile: .

That said Kiton is not in itself so bad. Compared to cheaper labels there is a huge amount of handwork in them and it is clearly a *vastly* superior garment.

The problem I have is the fact that they ask as much for a Kiton as for a bespoke A&S. That is something difficult to justify. However if you can thrift and get a Kiton for substantially less than bespoke I say: go for it. Though for me their tendency to play the supers game with excessively tissue papery übersuper fabrics means that even then I will not touch Kitons.

The biggest problem with paying bespoke prices for RTW is fit. What Beau Brummel established was that fit was the most important element of style. Fit, fit and above all fit. RTW fundamentally ignores this fact. Anyone who says "I am a perfect size xx" is someone so used to approximate fit that he knows no different. Only once you go bespoke do the scales fall from the eyes.

A true Neapolitan shoulder has no padding. You have to get the fit of the shoulder 100% right - down to the millimeter - in order to achieve that. In other words the Neapolitan shoulder and RTW are fundamentally incompatible. To get around this Kiton put padding in the shoulder. You simply have to do this. But then, as has been pointed out, it is no longer Neapolitan.

It is only by a slight of hand effected by advertising that buyers can be duped into paying bespoke prices for RTW. For this Kiton should be rightly hauled over the coals. For them to set up in London in competition with traditional bespoke tailors is being rightly decried here as a travesty.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Sator said:


> OK I am a self confessed Kiton basher :icon_smile: .
> 
> That said Kiton is not in itself so bad. Compared to cheaper labels there is a huge amount of handwork in them and it is clearly a *vastly* superior garment.
> 
> ...


Well, my preference is not for the very lightweight fabrics either, but if anybody has high, high quality versions, it is certainly Kiton.

My main problem with them is that the lapels are machine padded. That just doesn't seem right at the price, but everything else about them has been good to excellent in my experience. Is bespoke from Naples better? Heck yeah.

As far as the shoulder goes, I have tried on a lot of garments from several tailors in Naples and they are not all unpadded. Mine (by Rubinacci) are probably as unpadded as you are likely to find with no actual padding and only two thin slices of domette at the back of each shoulder and one piece of domette (not doubled like most) in the sleevehead. I am not sure that you would go further than that. When I asked him about how much he uses in general, he just said that it depended on the client.

One interesting note about an unpadded convex shoulder that I picked up from Noveporte is that with the lightness and comfort, you often get a slight gap between jacket collar and shirt collar at the sides, not at the back. This is also borne out in what you generally see on people in Naples including the picture of Solito above which is the only real convex shoulder in the bunch. Sator, I believe that you read Italian, so here is the link with a picture:
https://www.noveporte.it/taccuino/tau/list_tmp2.php3?chiave=1072&campo=id&idcategoria=1
Today, of the known tailors Rubinacci and Solito are the ones who still make a convex shoulder.

I have tried on jackets from others who make a shoulder that has much more shape like the Marigliano one above. Even Solito uses a bit more wadding at the end of the shoulder and in the sleevehead than you might think.

Interesting stuff and, as VoxSartoria said, interesting thread.... and interesting character.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

emorel98 said:


> I have Borrelli and love the fit pretty much off the rack (sleeves need to be shortened). It is the best fitting jacket I own. I have done MTM, never full bespoke.
> As for Kiton, saying that is inferior is a very big stretch. They have wonderfully made products which are very expensive.


If you enjoy wearing your Borrelli then that's great. But I am sure you were smart enough to avoid paying full price for it too. If you paid significantly less for your Borrelli than for bespoke in New York then you have gotten yourself a good deal.

The only thing I am taking a stand against is this business of paying as much for RTW as for bespoke - whether that be Neapolitan bespoke or any good bespoke tailoring in whatever city.

The reason Kiton will always be inferior to bespoke will be because of fit, fit and fit. I happen to think high end handmade bespoke features on a RTW suit are like a diamond studded ashtray on a Ducati motorcycle.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

iammatt said:


> As far as the shoulder goes, I have tried on a lot of garments from several tailors in Naples and they are not all unpadded. Mine (by Rubinacci) are probably as unpadded as you are likely to find with no actual padding and only two thin slices of domette at the back of each shoulder and one piece of domette (not doubled like most) in the sleevehead. I am not sure that you would go further than that. When I asked him about how much he uses in general, he just said that it depended on the client.


Yes, I know it is a bit of sweeping generalisation to say Neapolitan = no padding. I think we have had this discussion before. Of course bespoke tailors will use padding at their discretion. Still, Neapolitan tailors will keep the shoulders natural looking. It is a far cry from the amorphous blob of padding shovelled in their by Kiton and which is still clearly visible as padding from the outside.



iammatt said:


> Sator, I believe that you read Italian, so here is the link with a picture:
> https://www.noveporte.it/taccuino/tau/list_tmp2.php3?chiave=1072&campo=id&idcategoria=1
> Today, of the known tailors Rubinacci and Solito are the ones who still make a convex shoulder.


Thank you. Interesting to read that (though my Italian is a bit more rudimentary than my French or German). I have seen that photo before of course. I have never read anything about the convex shoulder in Neapolitan tailoring from the "horses mouth" so to speak.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Sator said:


> ..... It is a far cry from the amorphous blob of padding shovelled in their by Kiton and which is still clearly visible as padding from the outside.....


Wow, I know the Kiton I see is generally hand picked and special ordered by two pretty classy guys and therefor varies from what you may see at BG, but where are you shopping for Kiton based on that description??
I don't know if I ever seen a Kiton I would describe in such a manner!


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Sator said:


> Yes, I know it is a bit of sweeping generalisation to say Neapolitan = no padding. I think we have had this discussion before. Of course bespoke tailors will use padding at their discretion. Still, Neapolitan tailors will keep the shoulders natural looking. It is a far cry from the amorphous blob of padding shovelled in their by Kiton and which is still clearly visible as padding from the outside.
> 
> Thank you. Interesting to read that (though my Italian is a bit more rudimentary than my French or German). I have seen that photo before of course. I have never read anything about the convex shoulder in Neapolitan tailoring from the "horses mouth" so to speak.


Yes, Noveporte is a great site with a ton of information. It is like a London Lounge of Italy. They certainly have their own opinions, but overall it is really good stuff. Interesting takes on British and American dressing as well.

One other thing that can be noted about how "exact" the shoulder needs to be is that some tailors (Rubinacci's shop for example) like a bit of an extended, dropped shoulder and others, like Formosa like a very tight shoulder. They both have their different adherents. None of them really resemble Kiton that much, but the idea is there.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Sator said:


> It is only by a slight of hand effected by advertising that buyers can be duped into paying bespoke prices for RTW. For this Kiton should be rightly hauled over the coals.


We can regret the scarcity of trained tailors but Kiton offers a valid alternative. If I lived in a city with a Kiton retailer and no bespoke choices, I could either wear Kiton or fly somewhere that offered more choices. For some men, the cost of flying makes Kiton look a lot better.

I know people who care about their clothes and wear Kiton or Attolini simply because it's the best available locally (why guys who own their own aircraft can't travel for fittings is another question altogether, to which I guess that the thought never occurred to them).


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

RJman said:


> "Can't we all just get along?"
> 
> -- RJ Fran


You've been around long enough to know that the answer to that is self-evidently "No".


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Sator said:


> OK I am a self confessed Kiton basher. That said Kiton is not in itself so bad. Compared to cheaper labels there is a huge amount of handwork in them and it is clearly a *vastly* superior garment......
> 
> ...... For them to set up in London in competition with traditional bespoke tailors is being rightly decried here as a travesty.


I can certainly accept that you feel Kiton does not meet your value for the money standards. No one can argue with you on that.
So Kiton remains at the upper level of RTW albeit with an asterix for a questionable cost to value ratio when compared to bespoke.

I think we have finally reached conscious on this which could result in an end to Kiton bashing for a period of no less than 12 months.
Who am I kidding, that will never happen. I'll book mark this thread for the next rant that comes along.

Lawyers amongst us, does this count as jurisprudence??

I personally think no RTW shops should be allowed on Savile Row, none.
It should be declared a cultural zone and preserved with reduced rents and tax credits! :--) But hey, Kiton is just off the Row aren't they :---)
Sorry, I could not resist.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> Wow, I know the Kiton I see is generally hand picked and special ordered by two pretty classy guys and therefor varies from what you may see at BG, but where are you shopping for Kiton based on that description??
> I don't know if I ever seen a Kiton I would describe in such a manner!


OK sorry I am being harsh, inflammatory. Bad Sator! I should learn to get along etc.

What I meant was that the shoulder padding is generic and designed to hide the fact that the fit of the shoulders is always going to be less than bespoke in its standard. Nor is the padding individually tailored to the wearer's shoulder.

The padding on my Kiton feels odd on the side I have a dropped shoulder and makes it look obvious that the fit and structure there are a bit off. What can you do if it's RTW?

All of this would be fine if they would only come clean and charge RTW prices.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Will said:


> We can regret the scarcity of trained tailors but Kiton offers a valid alternative. If I lived in a city with a Kiton retailer and no bespoke choices, I could either wear Kiton or fly somewhere that offered more choices. For some men, the cost of flying makes Kiton look a lot better.


I agree. Kiton should only be sold in cities where they lack bespoke tailors.

London is not one of these cities.

Nor New York, Milan, Chicago, Toyko, Sydney and many others.


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

Sator said:


> I agree. Kiton should only be sold in cities where they lack bespoke tailors.
> 
> London is not one of these cities.
> 
> Nor New York, Milan, Chicago, Toyko, Sydney and many others.


Sator, you I know I love you if only due to your RMW work but your premises are flawed. Your issues are the price of Kiton vis a vis bespoke (Kiton is as or more expensive so it's a waste of money) and the fit issues (of course a good tailor will fit you better), under those circumstances there is no good RTW suit available. There is MTM and semi-bespoke available at almost every price range now so any suit that you throw at me, from Corneliani to RLPL to Oxxford, I can find a better fitting MTM or bespoke maker in the same price range. Does that makes those suits inferior or any less valuable to the market they are aiming for? Also, you are assuming that A&S or whoever is the panacea for everyone on earth. You honestly believe that every person that walks into Brioni, Kiton, Oxxford and shells out $4-5,000 on a suit is just an incredibly ignorant person who has never tried bespoke? You think there is no chance that at least one of their customers tried bespoke and decided, for whatever reason, that OTR was better for them? I'm happy to live in a city where there are many options. If I had a gift certificate for a bespoke A&S, I'd sell it and get a Borrelli. If you had a gift certificate for a Kiton, you'd spit on it, curse their mothers and burn it on the street in Savile Row. To each his own. Expensive is subjective. Jantzen makes a wonderful fitting shirt for $45, would spending more than that on a shirt, bespoke or OTR, be a waste of money?


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> Another point about Kiton as long as I am on my soapbox...
> 
> Kiton is as Neopolitan as they come. The factory makes everything and is located just outside the city. They are considered by many to have popularized the Neopolitan shoulder. They have partly created and significantly popularized a renaissance of craftsmanship among Naples brands. They have been great promoters of both Sutor Mantellasi and Lattanzi enabling those firms to become bigger business.
> 
> And they have done all this will good customer service, style, and class.


I agree Kiton played a big role in making Neapolitan jackets popular around the world, but I would add Cesare Attolini too. He`s the one who came up with the machine process of making Neapolitan jackets at Kiton, Isaia, and Attolini, Borrelli, etc.

Maybe we should all just agree that these RTW brands (Kiton, Attolini, Borrelli, Isaia) are more like New Neapolitan, rather than just saying they are not Neapolitan at all. Aside from perfect fit, you can get pretty much the same essence of Neapolitan tailoring from these RTW brands.

One more point is what makes a Neapolitan jacket. This no padding stuff is a myth in my opinion. A Neapolitan jacket can use as much padding or whatever the tailor wants. The whole starting point of Neapolitan tailoring is to make the jacket comfortable as possible, so it happens to be that they use as less padding as possible. This does not mean no padding can be used. In this sense, I think Kiton is extremely light and comfortable (even compared to Neapolitan bespoke).

I don`t think the locals (Neapolitans) would be attracted to any of the New Neapolitan RTW brands (not just Kiton) because good quality bespoke costs less locally.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

edited out,


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

*I think, with all due respect, that...*



Sator said:


> What I meant was that the shoulder padding is generic and designed to hide the fact that the fit of the shoulders is always going to be less than bespoke in its standard. Nor is the padding individually tailored to the wearer's shoulder.


...your statement is only meaningful in the context of the particular Neapolitan style. Bespoke can be many things...it is like a loaded weapon. Some fire the wrong bullets; others miss the target. Bespoke can be cheap. It can be ugly. (In fact, I find many an MTM product oddly unsucessful even compared to RTW. I have theories about that...perhaps in another thread...)

And certainly, padded, even roped, shoulders are part of a resplendent tradition of bespoke clothing, represented convincingly in many a SR house or Roman tailors. The presence of padding, by itself, is no indicator of lack of craft or individuality of tailoring. I am not entirely sure that I can attribute fatter padding to any Kiton that I have when compared to any soft, drape-style bespoke that I have from the Row.

As far as I can tell, few who post on this forum except those who have the good (or ill...) fortune of living in a region of traditional sartorial craft confine themselves to one style, especially over time. The presence of padding in a Kiton shoulder might be said to dilute a Neapolitan bespoke tradition, or it might also said to be a more trans-regional, international amalgamation of Neapolitan style with other traditions.

I think, nevertheless, that it is reasonable to attribute Kiton's use of a more padded shoulder in its RTW products resold through American retailers to a reasoned (or calculated) desire to mask the inflexibility of Neapolitan bespoke traditions to RTW application. But, that does not mean it is an ingenuine approach or unsuccessful in effect. I would go further: Kiton's approach is not as disappointing as the kind of RTW production and marketing that some companies that own names from the Row or Jermyn St. are doing today.

Regards,
Bill


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

iammatt said:


> My main problem with them is that the lapels are machine padded.


I don't remember if we settled this in the Kiton-vs.-Oxxford thread a while ago, but is there any point to hand-padding the lapels on an RTW garment?

--Andre


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> It mean that it must be make for the client *bespoke* from a tailor shop and not factory.


Is it really a "factory" when all you have a collection of artisans mostly handmaking suits? There are definitely higher crafted examples out there but at a higher price in my experience.



> I think, nevertheless, that it is reasonable to attribute Kiton's use of a more padded shoulder in its RTW products resold through American retailers to a reasoned (or calculated) desire to mask the inflexibility of Neapolitan bespoke traditions to RTW application.


Probably true. Kiton can do all sorts of options with MTM though. You can have more or less padding. You can choose differently interior finished jackets. It's really all up to the customer.

I think part of the problem here is that we are comparing a MTM handmade garment to the standards of a fully bespoke, individualized measurements.

Kiton interestingly has won many tailoring awards in Italy so by even Italy's standards they are well regarded. I believe Ciro won some master tailor award at a very young age. Based on what I hear from people who know him, he just breathes and sleeps this clothing. I believe someone like that is going to pay attention closely to quality standards.

I'm not sure exactly why Kiton does not do more handwork in the lapels but I have an idea. I looked at my Kiton lapels in my closet tonight. They roll just perfectly. I believe Kiton may feel the labor can be best employed elsewhere on the jacket.

I've always found Kiton shoulders to be well perfect. It's probably my favorite feature besides the fabrics. I have a slightly sloping down right shoulder which they adjust for in the MTM process. Compared to Brioni and Oxxford the padding is much less. Partly due to this my Kitons tend to conform very closely to my shape over time and as such be more comfortable. This is unique among my suits.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Andre Yew said:


> I don't remember if we settled this in the Kiton-vs.-Oxxford thread a while ago, but is there any point to hand-padding the lapels on an RTW garment?
> 
> --Andre


Who knows, it just seems like the guts should be handmade to me.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I know people who care about their clothes and wear Kiton or Attolini simply because it's the best available locally


Quite true in my case except that I also will visit Arthur at Louis in Boston due to the tastefully edited collection.

I would like to do some A&S suits soon but I'm not traveling as much to London.

In my experience, few people buy an RTW suit from Kiton as MTM is only slightly more (sometimes not at all) and at that price wouldn't one want to "design" the garment? I would imagine they sell quite a few RTW sportcoats based on what I have seen.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Yes, I know it is a bit of sweeping generalisation to say Neapolitan = no padding.


Why are we focused on the padding in isolation?

What about the overall silhouette? The cut of the pants? What about the overall shape of the lapels?


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Andre Yew said:


> I don't remember if we settled this in the Kiton-vs.-Oxxford thread a while ago, but is there any point to hand-padding the lapels on an RTW garment?
> 
> --Andre


Andre,

As you know, I love jackets more than most other items and am fascinated with the entire process and trade. I have visited a few more factories and learned a few things that I think will surprise many, they shocked me.

A thread on all this, with pictures will be coming at the end of the month.
I am working on another project that I must finish first.

All is not as it seems in the lapel debate.


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> Quite true in my case except that I also will visit Arthur at Louis in Boston due to the tastefully edited collection.
> 
> I would like to do some A&S suits soon but I'm not traveling as much to London.
> 
> In my experience, few people buy an RTW suit from Kiton as MTM is only slightly more (sometimes not at all) and at that price wouldn't one want to "design" the garment? I would imagine they sell quite a few RTW sportcoats based on what I have seen.


I think that you confuse MTM with bespoke. It is close to RTW than bespoke. Much close. Editid collection makes it sound like a Prada. Do you A&S and you throw away Kiton and A&S is only so-so from what I have hear.



Artisan Fan said:


> Why are we focused on the padding in isolation?
> 
> What about the overall silhouette? The cut of the pants? What about the overall shape of the lapels?


The silouette... not similar because is no so shape
The pants... not good, not similar, no handmake at all
Lapels... too narrow and straight.

Have you ever seen a jacket from Napoli? Pants?

Bythe way. I read your quaote about jeans. I only try to help you Fran not look like a fool and throw away money. I am done with you Fran,.


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

*Well, Kiton padding in the shoulder...*



Artisan Fan said:


> Why are we focused on the padding in isolation? What about the overall silhouette? The cut of the pants? What about the overall shape of the lapels?


...for its RTW aimed at the American market might be the most obvious visual divergence from Neapolitan bespoke tradition.

I think that the honorable scaramanga's points are not so different than your points on other threads on bespoke shoes...to put it in shoe terms, Kiton RTW at retail is often like Edward Greens at Amesbury or Amesbury 2x prices. That, however, doesn't make necessarily make an EG a less handsome shoe...especially if it fits...or from a practical standpoint, a more poorly "constructed" shoe.

(Or if you prefer, substitute Saint Crispin's or Vass prêt-à-porter for the EG as the analogy for Kiton.)

Ooops. I hope I have not flogged this thread into a shoe war...good shoes do seem, however, to have a more rational price-to-quality relationship than do tailored clothing.

Regards,
Bill


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I think that you confuse MTM with bespoke.


Actually my point is that they are very different! We are comparing the two here at times and acting disappointed when MTM doesn't, ahem, measure up.



> I think that the honorable scaramanga's points are not so different than your points on other threads on bespoke shoes...to put it in shoe terms, Kiton RTW at retail is often like Edward Greens at Amesbury or Amesbury 2x prices.


But value is not really the discussion here. Clearly one can make value decisions differently. Kiton may not be the best value right now, but that does not make it anything other than a high quality, mostly handmade garment.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I only try to help you Fran not look like a fool and throw away money. I am done with you Fran,.


Damn, I bet somewhere there is a Fran that is really upset by this snubbing.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*Each to his own*

Quote: I know people who care about their clothes and wear Kiton or Attolini simply because it's the best available locally



Artisan Fan said:


> Quite true in my case


Gosh this thread is getting a tiny bit out of hand. It is in no small part my doing too. So it is time to call a truce as I really don't wish to make enemies of friends.

From my point of view I can get bespoke at very reasonable prices here in Sydney. I have a choice between a Savile Row trained tailor in John Cutler as well as my own Italian tailor - Adamo Marone - in Sydney's little Italy. When you consider the exchange rate of the Australian dollar vs the Euro plus the heavy handed retail mark ups from the local Kiton seller, you are looking at a $6500 - 7000 AUD suit from Kiton. This really makes it silly for anyone here to buy a Kiton RTW or MTM.

Obviously your demographics make for a different scenario. You seem to have less access to bespoke and so Kiton MTM may well be a far better option for you. If the preset patterns are already a fair fit and with an expertly done tweaking via MTM it can be made even better then you are obviously on to a good thing. I know you like your super woolens and Kiton will have a fantastic selection of these. I can imagine you would feel yourself in sartorial heaven at Kiton.

However, for me the oddities of my physique require more than a little tweek of a basic pattern. Having a suit cut for me based on a pattern made for me alone is something of a necessity. I also have a 37'' chest so a 38 is often too big and 36 sometimes too small and finding a good fit amongst RTW is rather hard. When bespoke is a less expensive option here in Sydney you can probably see that put in the same position you would likely also eshew Kiton. And you might decry them and their pricing as being absurd like I do.

Same if you lived in Naples. You too would probably denounce Kiton as being an absurd extravagance for Americans who had too much money if you had access to the local bespoke tailors who offered bespoke at a lower price point.

Ditto if you lived in London.

It is all a matter of perspective. This is such an international forum that we all live in disparate circumstances and a simple one size fits all solutions could never work for all members.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

im always suspicious of brand names especially prestige ones that charge the earth.

when we get into the multi thousand pound price bracket it just has to be bespoke.

an off the peg jacket doesn't take into consideration a person's unique shoulder slope and posture idiosychransys (sp).

if i was to invest 2 to 3 thousand on a suit i would want it to mould my body like a second skin and be of a material i exactly want.

brand names are always terrible value for money. you pay a lot more a cheaper made garment. with bespoke you get every pennys worth.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I did not expect this to turn into such a thread but if I were to put myself in one of the camps I think it would be that I could not bring myself to pay that much for any off the peg item of clothing. When I saw the sign I had just come out of the Loro Piana shop close by. They had some wonderful cashmere knitwear but at £500 + I could not bring myself to pay that much for something with a limited life.

I know there are some very wealthy people whose values are different to those on this site. They may spend as much time as we do on clothes on topics we would not think worthwhile taking time over and they want to buy and leave in the minimum time possible. This type of shop is ideal for them. 

I enjoy the process of bespoke too much and was happy to go to Dresden to specify my car and pick the individual woods and leathers for a car that would be delivered in 6 months time. Many people would prefer to go down to their local Mercedes or Bentley dealer and buy one from the showroom. It is a different mind set.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I enjoy the process of bespoke too much and was happy to go to Dresden to specify my car and pick the individual woods and leathers for a car that would be delivered in 6 months time. Many people would prefer to go down to their local Mercedes or Bentley dealer and buy one from the showroom. It is a different mind set.


I think this is a valid view. I would only do bespoke if I lived in London or Italy. But again the discussion of value varies by location and person. Some may not mind paying $5K for a Kiton suit or sportcoat (I personally would never do RTW at that price and think twice on MTM). Others might. What is unfair and incorrect is to say that Kiton suits are made in a non-artisan, low quality fashion.


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

*Not so much that Kiton is uncompelling value...*



Artisan Fan said:


> But value is not really the discussion here. Clearly one can make value decisions differently. Kiton may not be the best value right now, but that does not make it anything other than a high quality, mostly handmade garment.


...more that at Kiton's pricepoints, a parallel world of bespoke options becomes available that allows personal applications of some of the best of sartorial traditions and craft.

I agree with you entirely that Kiton is high quality. I find suggestions to the contrary completely unconvincing. Nearly all of Kiton's products are almost entirely handmade, the materials supremely luxurious, and the concern with excellence real. Their success as handsome objects, however, does not entirely get them into the realm of sartorial effect afforded by the individual and organic application of the type of tailoring found, for example, in London where this new Kiton store will open.

Does that matter for their success? I do not think so, because the Kiton look will be an attractive novelty in London, and Kiton's form of luxury (whether one labels it inauthentic or innovative) has its own charms.

Regards,
Bill


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> What is unfair and incorrect is to say that Kiton suits are made in a non-artisan, low quality fashion.


I agree entirely.

I had my Kiton taken in at the waist by a bespoke tailoring firm. They said it took two tailors seven hours to unpick and redo the stitching. It cost me a small fortune to have done.

Still at that full retail price I would expect more from a suit. And when Kiton ask what they do for a RTW suit well they deserve to be _*thoroughly*_ nitpicked.


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

*London or Italy...but why not Atlanta?*



Artisan Fan said:


> I would only do bespoke if I lived in London or Italy.


AF, since you have shoes made, I have the premonition that you would be hooked once you made the leap to do the same for your suitings and odd clothing. It really is a pleasure that is hard to convey, one that you already know from your shoes.

Boston is no better than Atlanta in access to bespoke tailoring, and I used to have to visit NYC to meet my tailor from the Row.

Thankfully, he now travels to Boston as well.

Regards,
Bill


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## T4phage (Nov 12, 2003)

scaramanga said:


> Ciao minchia. Un bacione .....


 But are you sure that is correct Italian? One of those words are only used as an exclamation.....


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Their success as handsome objects, however, does not entirely get them into the realm of sartorial effect afforded by the individual and organic application of the type of tailoring found, for example, in London where this new Kiton store will open.


Agreed.


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

T4phage said:


> But are you sure that is correct Italian? One of those words are only used as an exclamation.....


Ciao T4. Non fare lo minchione. Infatti, hai ragione ma lo dicioamo cosi lo stesso. Senti, che pensi di Kiton e della sua qualita? Credo che ti faccia cagare, no? Dimmi e' veramente una cosa napoletana o invece una cosa americanata? Vedremo che sai qualcosa di napoli. Mi fido di te.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

My youngest daughter loves the museums,
she drags me there as often as she can break me down.

We walk the hall way of the permanent collect,

Picasso, Rembrandt, Monet, Renoir.
Which is the best? Why?
Which is the most valuable and by who's measure stick?

None, 
Their all just different,
I love them all,

vive la difference!


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## T4phage (Nov 12, 2003)

scaramanga said:


> Ciao T4. Non fare lo minchione. Infatti, hai ragione ma lo dicioamo cosi lo stesso. Senti, che pensi di Kiton e della sua qualita? Credo che ti faccia cagare, no? Dimmi e' veramente una cosa napoletana o invece una cosa americanata? Vedremo che sai qualcosa di napoli. Mi fido di te.



Kiton produce capospalla molto ben fatti, sebbene siano capi pronti. Il lavoro a mano abbonda.
Ma, per lo stesso prezzo, sarebbe meglio rivolgersi a Pirozzi, Formosa, etc..
Non sono americano. Sono un intruglio di nazionalita' non ben definite, che risultano in qualcosa che forse chiameresti "cittadino del mondo".
Ma tu pensi che la manica a mappina sia veramente napoletana? E quali sarebbero le caratteristiche di una manica a mappina napoletana?

Una tazzulella e' ... per te, paisa'!


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

T4phage said:


> Kiton produce capospalla molto ben fatti, sebbene siano capi pronti. Il lavoro a mano abbonda.
> Ma, per lo stesso prezzo, sarebbe meglio rivolgersi a Pirozzi, Formosa, etc..
> Non sono americano. Sono un intruglio di nazionalita' non ben definite, che risultano in qualcosa che forse chiameresti "cittadino del mondo".
> Ma tu pensi che la manica a mappina sia veramente napoletana? E quali sarebbero le caratteristiche di una manica a mappina napoletana?
> ...


Si, alla mappina e' sicuramente napoletano. Adesso, quando penso a "alla mappina" penso alla vecchia Napoli come Rubinacci ecc. Ora, non si indossa tanto la spalla camicia. E' piu normale una giacca morbida ma con "salame". Anche, le giacche oggi (a parte di Rubinacci e Solito) sono piu formata e meno come le camicie. Nella mia punta di vista, cosi e melio e va piu alla moda. Alla mappina vuol dire, a me, una spalla sulla manica. Non me ne frega una minchia se la manica e' grandissima o normale.

La sola cosa importante per una giacca napoletana e' "su misura" e basta!

Si io fossi fortunato e avessi tanti soldi, andrei a Solito e comissionerei una giacca con salame ma poco piu corto di normale. Non mi piace le giacche lunghe normale di Solito.

A me, una Kiton e' abbastanza ben fatta ma senza l'emozione di Napoli. E' veramenta finta Napoli.


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## Chris L. (Aug 11, 2006)

However, I would much rather get Sartoria Caliendo over anything.


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## Joel (Jul 23, 2007)

I tried on a kiton jacket OTR a couple of weeks ago and it felt awesome on, it's fit was fantastic. Also great service in there.


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## bespoke therapy (May 12, 2005)

emorel98 said:


> And I'm in New York


--------------------------------------------------------

Mariano Rubinacci comes to the CArlyle in NYC say 3-4 times annually


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