# Discount Hickey Freeman: what I've learned



## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

Every so often, someone buys a Hickey Freeman at Nordstrom Rack or Off Fifth and wants to know what they've got. (Why HF insists on dicking around and blurring the lines between their lines, thus dilluting their brand name is another thread/rant.:icon_smile Anyway, here's the current lineup, far as I can tell.

Mainline Hickey Freemans (fully canvassed): Grey label on the inside jacket pocket with the name "Hickey Freeman" and interlocking "HF." The size tag inside the pocket will have a name, not a #, under model, like Madison or Barrett; check the website for current ones. Union made in USA. Original retail price should be north of $1400. Anything on the HF website will be mainline (confirmed via email)--they sometimes have good sales--and, I would guess, their retail stores. Don't know about outlets.

"Hickey Freeman LTD." (fused) is becoming tricky. They usually say "Ltd" on the paper sleeve tag, but this might be obscured. They used to say "Ltd." on the inside jacket label, but I recently saw one that did not and have read similar reports here by others. However, they will still say "Ltd." somewhere on the size tag *inside* the jacket pocket and have a model #, not a name. These may also made in the USA, so be careful.

There are new "Hickey Freeman Collection" models with the black label which are now fused and which appear to be part of the Ltd. line. On the few I recently saw, on the size tag there was a model #, not a name, and under manufacturer, it said "H.F. Ltd." This is a right b*st*rd since "Collection" I am told used to mean mainline. If you've got a Collection suit, you may want to double check the construction. Not a steal at the std. $600 discount price, imo, but your mileage may vary.

Obviously, the pinch test is still most reliable, if you can do this. But if you can find both a mainline HF and a diffusion one and compare them side by side, the difference should be pretty clear. Mainline fabric is much higher quality and jacket much more light and pliable; they really do seem to hang a light canvas. Also check the collar attachment, armholes, and button-holes; stitching on the diffusion will appear more uniform and "machined." (Mainlines are supposed to have hand-sewn buttonholes.) A mainline HF should look and feel like a really nice suit, closer to a Canali or Zegna than to a Hugo Boss or Calvin Klein.

Happy hunting--and corrections welcome.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

fullgrain said:


> (Why HF insists on dicking around and blurring the lines between their lines, thus dilluting their brand name is another thread/rant.:icon_smile Don't know about outlets.


I'd say the rationale is not hard to figure: H-F is using off-price stores as a marketing channel, and purpose-making cheaper suits for that channel. This helps to keep the production lines at H-F's Rochester, NY, factory running, allows H-F to compete not only in the higher-priced but also in the modestly-priced RTW market, and could be, for all we know, what is keeping the company in business (making RTW suits in the USA has not exactly been a land-office business of late).

The labeling does tell the story (H-F's inside-chestpocket labels carry a lot more info than most other makers' do), but as a consumer one needs to be aware when shopping at, say, Filene's Basement, that some of the Hickeys you see for $599 ($450 on sale) are "mainline" suits remaindered from Nordie's or Neiman's (I have two H-Fs purchased at FB and labeled as being made for those two stores, respectively) while others are "Ltd." suits made specifically for discount sale.

The H-F Ltd. (as indicated by sleeve tag) suits that I've inspected at Syms and FB seemed to me to be _not _fused however, but actually _half-canvassed_: For the $380 (Syms "Bash") or even the $450 (FB "suit event") best prices at which one can readily obtain them I would say they are decent values, tho' obviously if you can score a mainline H-F at those discounters for the same price you are getting a significantly better deal.


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## OscarTheWild (Jan 8, 2004)

*Don't forget the "hand tailored"*

The Hand tailored models (made for BG among others ) are excellent. I have seen the "edwards" and one other name.

These are a different animal.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

OscarTheWild said:


> The Hand tailored models (made for BG among others ) are excellent. I have seen the "edwards" and one other name.
> 
> These are a different animal.


Besides Bergdorf Goodman and the Hickey Freeman store in New York City, New York, are there any other stores that sell Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored Label?

FWIW, Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored Label is the original (and at one time, the only) Hickey Freeman, also simply called Hickey Freeman at one time. Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored Label, from what I understand, matches Brioni for handwork (about 90% hand tailored and 10% machine tailored for Brioni and Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored Label according to Brioni, Hickey Freeman and Bergdorf Goodman). Also, according to Hickey Freeman and Bergdorf Goodman, the prices for Hickey Freeman's Tailored Label's tailored clothing are 80-90% of the prices for comparable tailored clothing from Oxxford.

Also, how much flexibility is there with the made to measure services from Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored Label and all other lines of Hickey Freeman tailored clothing that also offer MTM services?


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Seems like when you see a HF Collection (black label) suit, it's just HF using old labels for HF Ltd (HF Collection was the main line for HF until 3 years or so ago, and in addition to being fully canvassed, it had hand sewn button holes, unlike the current main line suits). In every case I've seen a HF Collection label over the last 9 mos. or so in an off price store (Marshalls, NM Last Call, and Off Fifth), the paper sleeve label has "HF Ltd" on it (and no model name, as mentioned above). As PJC in NoVa said, HF Ltd is 1/2 canvassed, and when at $400 range or less, it is a decent deal. As to HF Hand Tailored (which are extremely nice), they also generally have a small selection of them at their outlet stores.


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

I see the 'Hand Tailored' line at Filene's Basement for $600 from time to time.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

cgc said:


> I see the 'Hand Tailored' line at Filene's Basement for $600 from time to time.


Syms used to get a limited number of them, too, back when they were called "HF Customized" (same suits, different line name). Now you're fortunate to find the gray label main line suits in your size at Syms.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Fashion TC said:


> Also, how much flexibility is there with the made to measure services from Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored Label and all other lines of Hickey Freeman tailored clothing that also offer MTM services?


I'm not sure specifically what you're asking here. I'll answer as best I can based on what I know and if I don't hit your points then you can ask your question a bit more specifically. First of all, I know nothing about the Hand Tailored line. My HF MTM experience is through their main line at Nordstroms.

Earlier this year (March?) I ordered through their MTM program and it was basically an MTO program. That is, in my case, a 43L jacket (with minor modifications) and a 38 trouser cut to order from a specific cloth and based on a specific model (in my case 1B, SB, PL, NV). I also later ordered a DB vest to go with this suit. Later this summer (July) when I ordered another suit, I was told that the program had changed (add your own grain of salt here) and that now they were doing more specific measurements (chest, waist, etc.) as the basis for the MTM program. It is still based on their standard models (a 3B Madison with SV's is the one I chose).

The basic suit is pretty basic, but various options can be added for nominal charges. This option was not given to me on the first suit and with the second I had to get kind of pushy until I got my hands on a book that indicated these options and their costs. On the second one I ordered it with pic stitching, a SB lapeled vest, special lining on the jacket (NC), hidden watch pocket in the waistband of the trousers, heel guards, no-slip pads in the trouser waistband, braces buttons, and working cuff buttons on the jacket (maybe a couple of other items, I can't recall). The costs of these additional items are fairly nominal ($5-$15 per item, IIRC).

Just as a point of reference, I ordered this suit during the Nordstrom anniversary sale in July. There was a limited selection of fabrics that were included in the sale, but my total cost for the 3 piece suit was about $1,300. By way of comparison, my cost for the 3 piece suit earlier in the year (not on sale) was about $2,000.

Between the first and the second order, I was also told that HF had computerized their ordering process (previously the store filled out an order and faxed it in). This *may *explain the increased flexibility (either that or the sales people were clueless the first time).

I was also told that if any alterations (including jacket sleeve length) are made at the store, these alterations can be sent back to HF so that the pattern can be altered for future orders. I've been told that any future jackets can be ordered with working cuff buttons from the factory (this time the jacket came unfinished and was finished by the tailors in the store).

BTW, I'm supposed to pick up the second suit today.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

I purchased a HF tuxedo at Nordstrom Rack earlier this year for $500. It was a "Boardroom" model which, as I understand, was an earlier years version of the current Madison. So, in my case it was a mainline HF, but was an older model.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Mark from Plano said:


> I purchased a HF tuxedo at Nordstrom Rack earlier this year for $500. It was a "Boardroom" model which, as I understand, was an earlier years version of the current Madison. So, in my case it was a mainline HF, but was an older model.


Great find, Mark. HF Collection? I haven't seen one of the "real" HF Collection suits in approx. a year in any stores.

Scott


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

> as a consumer one needs to be aware when shopping at, say, Filene's Basement, that some of the Hickeys you see for $599 ($450 on sale) are "mainline" suits remaindered from Nordie's or Neiman's


Yes, that's why I posted; you'll often see the mainline ones from the retail stores mixed in with the Ltds at the exact same $599 price. My point about the "rant" was that they don't do the best job in making it easy for the consumer to distinguish between the lines. I have suits w/ from full to as far as far as I can tell no canvassing--it's not the be all and end all--but in general I try to keep a different price point in mind for each.



> The H-F Ltd. (as indicated by sleeve tag) suits that I've inspected at Syms and FB seemed to me to be _not _fused however, but actually _half-canvassed_: For the $380 (Syms "Bash") or even the $450 (FB "suit event") best prices at which one can readily obtain them I would say they are decent values, tho' obviously if you can score a mainline H-F at those discounters for the same price you are getting a significantly better deal.


Didn't mean to bash Ltds, PJC. As far as I know, they're still USA made, which is a good thing, and yes, 300-400 as opposed to 600 makes a difference. But I have seen some variation in the Ltd. line. This could be dependent on the particular discount store perhaps?


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## morse (Dec 26, 2005)

I'd like to add to this thread. Some HF Ltd.'s will be branded as such both on the label attached to the sleeve AND inside the jacket. You mention that there are also Ltd. models that use the regular grey Hickey-Freeman label, but have Ltd tags attached at the sleeve. Here are the only visual differences between these Ltd. models and the mainline ones:

1. A Ltd. model has the gray HF label stiched on in a V pattern, while the mainline models have it stiched on with an X pattern. 

2. The lining of HF Ltd. models is the one used in Burberry suits (made by HF), and is somewhat textured and duller, while the lining of the HF mainline models is smoother and shinier. Comparing the two side by side should demonstrate this difference.

3. A mainline HF always has an embroidered HF monogram on the bottom left (I believe, could be right though) jacket interior. 

In addition, you are correct that the manufacturer's label inside the pocket will not have a model name (Madison, Canterbury, etc.) for Ltd. suits, but in my experience, it has never said Ltd. anywhere. I agree that this is very confusing. 

The Ltd.'s are always half-canvassed, and quality actually varies- I have seen some that use terrible fabric, and others that come close the mainline Hickey quality. The fit is almost equivalent to the HF Madison. For 600, this suit is most certainly not a rip off- it's priced similarly to the Brooksease suit, which is a half-canvassed equivalent. Certainly, it is not as good as a mainline Hickey, but should not be written off as just crap.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

It should also be pointed out that Ltd. is not just sold in discount stores. I have seen it in several regular department stores like Belk. Belk in B'ham just started carrying HF and I was actually quite excited about it. Then I find out that they are carrying Ltd only.

I'd say selling the suits in the same channels as it's higher lines would certainly cause some brand dilution.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Mark from Plano said:


> I'm not sure specifically what you're asking here. I'll answer as best I can based on what I know and if I don't hit your points then you can ask your question a bit more specifically. First of all, I know nothing about the Hand Tailored line. My HF MTM experience is through their main line at Nordstroms.
> 
> Earlier this year (March?) I ordered through their MTM program and it was basically an MTO program. That is, in my case, a 43L jacket (with minor modifications) and a 38 trouser cut to order from a specific cloth and based on a specific model (in my case 1B, SB, PL, NV). I also later ordered a DB vest to go with this suit. Later this summer (July) when I ordered another suit, I was told that the program had changed (add your own grain of salt here) and that now they were doing more specific measurements (chest, waist, etc.) as the basis for the MTM program. It is still based on their standard models (a 3B Madison with SV's is the one I chose).
> 
> ...


By flexibility, I mean having made to measure tailored clothing made with some of the options listed below.

Numerous different choices of "security" pocket designs (with a choice of button closure or zipper closure) for all front interior jacket pockets except pen pockets.

No pen pockets anywhere on or in jacket, pair of pants, pairs of pants (if two similar or identical pants are specified) or vest.

Another example is a vertical button hole on the front of the vest or jacket for a pocket watch.

Pants cut for suspenders with 6-suspender buttons and zero belt loops (if preferred).

Another example is numerous button count and button configuration choices (many not standard and only within reason) for jackets, overcoats, vests and pants.

Button fly pants instead of zipper fly for pants.

Believe it or not (even I was a bit skeptical about this at first), some brands MTm services, like those from Oxxford, offer all of the options listed above. But my question is, do any lines of Hickey Freeman tailored clothing where MTM services are available offer any or all of these options?

In the event that I cannot ever afford Oxxford MTM, I would happily settle for MTM from any line of Hickey Freeman tailored clothing as long as it is 100% canvassed and 0% fused. That is why I have been asking all of these questions about MTM tailored clothing from Hickey Freeman.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Fashion TC said:


> By flexibility, I mean having made to measure tailored clothing made with some of the options listed below.


OK. I will try to address each one as best I can recall.



Fashion TC said:


> Numerous different choices of "security" pocket designs (with a choice of button closure or zipper closure) for all front interior jacket pockets except pen pockets.


There are numerous pocket options, but I don't recall what they are specifically. I do recall that having one (or perhaps more) of the interior pockets close with a button was an option.



Fashion TC said:


> No pen pockets anywhere on or in jacket, pair of pants, pairs of pants (if two similar or identical pants are specified) or vest.


There is an option of a vest or two pair of pants (or both). Obviously the pricing changes pretty significantly. IIRC, the standard price for a vest is about $400 depending on fabric.



Fashion TC said:


> Another example is a vertical button hole on the front of the vest or jacket for a pocket watch.


I don't believe that I saw this as an option from HF. However, the local Nordstrom told me that their button machine could do this, I didn't have it done because they were concerned about matching the thread color of the vest buttonholes, given the proximity. However, I looked at the sleeve buttonholes they did and I couldn't distinguish theirs from HF's (on the vest and jacket) so I may take it back and have them do this as well.



Fashion TC said:


> Pants cut for suspenders with 6-suspender buttons and zero belt loops (if preferred).


Not sure if the "cut for suspenders" was an option, but suspender buttons were and no belt loops is.



Fashion TC said:


> Another example is numerous button count and button configuration choices (many not standard and only within reason) for jackets, overcoats, vests and pants.


There is a fairly fixed menu of choices here. The Madison comes in two or three button (no 3/2 that I saw). You can match that up with either center vented, side vented or no vent in either configuration. I don't believe that there were many choices of button count on the vests, however there are a number of vest options: SB no lapels, SB w/lapels, DB are the ones that come to mind.



Fashion TC said:


> Button fly pants instead of zipper fly for pants.


Not offered AFAIK.

Hope this helps. Other options I recall off the top of my head were:
* No back pockets on trousers.
* Hidden or flapped watch pocket in trouser waistband.
* Ticket pockets on jacket.
* Linings.

Lots of others I just can't remember them all.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

morse said:


> I'd like to add to this thread. ...
> The Ltd.'s are always half-canvassed, and quality actually varies- I have seen some that use terrible fabric, and others that come close the mainline Hickey quality. The fit is almost equivalent to the HF Madison. For 600, this suit is most certainly not a rip off- it's priced similarly to the Brooksease suit, which is a half-canvassed equivalent. Certainly, it is not as good as a mainline Hickey, but should not be written off as just crap.


I agree that the Ltd. suits are not of a poor quality and as was also posted, they seem to have 2 quality levels of fabric (when they list retail prices on these, the higher retail price indicates that the suit is made with the better fabric--the two price points used to be $950 and $1250, but I think they've been raised). Brooksease is a good comparison, Morse, and I think that the HF Ltd. suits are actually at least a little bit better (the canvassed area seems more supple on the Ltd), especially if you get the better fabric. For those here who shop at off price stores and are just learning about the difference between the HF lines, any disappointment just has to do with thinking you're getting a "better" HF main line suit, and then getting something that is just not quite a good.

Badrabbit -Thanks for mentioning that Belk carries the Ltd line. I had never seen the Ltd. line in any retail store; had only seen it in off price stores. Interesting.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Mark from Plano said:


> OK. I will try to address each one as best I can recall.
> 
> There are numerous pocket options, but I don't recall what they are specifically. I do recall that having one (or perhaps more) of the interior pockets close with a button was an option.
> 
> ...


Your answers, information and insight are immesnely helpful and immenseley appreciated!  Thank you very, very dearly!


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> I purchased a HF tuxedo at Nordstrom Rack earlier this year for $500. It was a "Boardroom" model which, as I understand, was an earlier years version of the current Madison. So, in my case it was a mainline HF, but was an older model.





smr said:


> Great find, Mark. HF Collection? I haven't seen one of the "real" HF Collection suits in approx. a year in any stores.


In case anyone is interested, I was in the Nordstrom Rack this evening in Plano, TX and they have one HF Collection PL 1B "Boardroom" model tuxedo in a 43 XL for $500. It was the only PL model I saw amongst lots of NL and a few Jhane Barnes shawl lapel models.

They also had several a few HF (not LTD) suits on sale for around $500. One that tempted me was a solid charcoal grey 42R. Those in the DFW area might find it worthwhile to take a look.​


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## steveincharlotte (Aug 24, 2006)

What label would you consider this to be? Just bought this sportcoat on eBay. Was advertised to be a Boardroom at $795 list.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Steve, inside that pocket there should be a large white label with a lot of writing on it. There should be a model name, or else a number. TTBOMK, name means higher-end range, number means H-F Ltd. or whatever their diffusion line was at the time (H-F Collection?).


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

That label may have preceded HF Collection (main stream line for which labels were generally black and said "HF Collection"). Here's another HF jacket with the same tag, and it appears to have hand sewn button holes:


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## alphadelta (Oct 2, 2007)

I have purchased several HF mainline suits from the Neiman Marcus Last Call outlet store here in Denver. They are labeled "Boardroom" or "Madison" on the label inside of the inner pocket (NOT LTD). Very nice fabrics (Lora Piana?) and great construction. HF is one of the few brands I have found to be my perfect OTR size -- 39R. With minimal tailoring, they look and fit me like a bespoke suit. They are typically on clearance sale in the $250 -- $300 range (MSRP $1,300+). You do not need to spend a lot of money to get a lot of suit. Although I'd love to drop a few grand on a bespoke suit, I'm not sure the results would be ten times better than what I have been able to get with HF.

AD


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

Steve, how was the jacket advertised? By the label, it looks to be a few years old, not that there's anything inherently wrong w/ that. Lovely pattern, btw.

Alphadelta, the Denver Last Call must be v nice. All the ones I've ever been to, $600 is a more common price.


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## uluvbs (Jun 6, 2007)

*Drop*

Does HF seem to have a lot of suits with a 7- or 8-drop to them?


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## steveincharlotte (Aug 24, 2006)

fullgrain said:


> Steve, how was the jacket advertised? By the label, it looks to be a few years old, not that there's anything inherently wrong w/ that. Lovely pattern, btw.


As a New Hickey Freeman Boardroom Collection Jacket. I've been looking for a better quality tweed (discussed in an earlier thread) and thought this might fill the bill. Only paid $53, and it did indeed look new. It's at my tailor's now, so can't look in the pocket.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

steveincharlotte said:


> Only paid $53, and it did indeed look new.


I think you got a major deal--congratulations.


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## RJATL (Mar 11, 2006)

Fashion TC said:


> Besides Bergdorf Goodman and the Hickey Freeman store in New York City, New York, are there any other stores that sell Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored Label?


I've seen maybe 2 Hand Tailored Labels at the FB here in Atlanta. Does anyone know of any regular retail stores that carrythe Hand Tailored line (e.g., Saks, etc.) or whether Hickey Freeman retailers are able to order a Hand Tailored suit or jacket as RTW or MTM?


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

*the hickey thread that would not die...*

Steve, could have been New Old Stock (their sportcoats start at $995 these days) or since it looks like it was made for a small shop, they might have old or custom labels. Yes, great deal BTW, I've been looking for something similar myself.

uluvbs, if by drop you mean the difference between the ticketed chest size and waist size, most HFs I've seen these days are about 6"--they tend to be cut fairly conservatively--though anything's possible.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

If you want the good stuff, go to one of the few HF outlet stores. They don't publicize the stores and they are true outlets.


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

*Where are the Hickey Outlet stores?*

Where are these outlet stores. I'm in Chicago. Is one nearby?


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## RVL Saratoga (Apr 18, 2006)

The only two I'm aware of are at Woodbury Common and in Manchester, VT.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

LD111134 said:


> Where are these outlet stores. I'm in Chicago. Is one nearby?


6132 Broadway
Merrillville, IN 46410
(219) 884-8444

It's in a run down little shopping center (strip mall). Call and see if they'll put you on their mailing list. Just under an hour from Chicago.


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

Thanks...my girlfriend and I often day-trip it to southwestern Michigan, so a trip to the HF outlet would be a nice detour. :icon_smile:


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

steveincharlotte said:


> What label would you consider this to be? Just bought this sportcoat on eBay. Was advertised to be a Boardroom at $795 list.


Bear in mind that Jacobson's went out of business about five years ago.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

LD111134 said:


> Thanks...my girlfriend and I often day-trip it to southwestern Michigan, so a trip to the HF outlet would be a nice detour. :icon_smile:


We used to combine the trip to the HF outlet with a trip to the Michigan City, IN, outlet center.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

LD111134 said:


> Where are these outlet stores. I'm in Chicago. Is one nearby?


The outlet store is in Merrillville.


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## greynolds (Aug 19, 2007)

I have a really hard time finding suits at discount locations (or even normal stores without a special order) in my size (54L), but I picked up the 1 suit they had in my size at the Kittery, ME Hickey Freeman outlet today for $399 (it was marked $499 and there was a $100 discount on suits at that price). How did I do?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Does it worry anyone that H-F suits have become so widely available at such deep discounts?


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*I see many HF on ebay...*

Awesoem thread guys.
I have been seeing many HF on ebay advertising they are $1400 suits for $89.00!
Now I ownder if they are fused, kalf, or fully canvassed.
I'm going to ask the seller.
I would not be suprized if he was selling a fully fused HF and calling it a $1400 suit. 
This thread has taught me that there is much more to the overall quality of a suit than just a good name like HF.
I can't wait to find a fully canvased suit in Filenes Basement!, Have you guys ever seen a 50 reg with an 8-10 drop?
Any suggestion in athletically cut suits?


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## obiwan (Feb 2, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> Have you guys ever seen a 50 reg with an 8-10 drop?
> Any suggestion in athletically cut suits?


Typical drop is 5", I wear a 48L and it comes with 43 trousers, I need 40's so the tailor takes them down to 41 as I wear braces.


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## greynolds (Aug 19, 2007)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Does it worry anyone that H-F suits have become so widely available at such deep discounts?


I guess it depends on the reasons why they're available at the deep discounts. If it's old stock that various stores have decided simply isn't going to sell, so they move it on to discount stores, then there's certainly no problem. If HF is making suits specifically for the discount stores (and their outlet stores), then I suppose that could be a problem long term as those suits would presumably be lower quality and could hurt the HF name.

It's a tough call. Lower end lines sometimes keep a company profitable while still allowing them to produce the higher end products too. OTOH, John Deere has a line of lawn tractors that are sold through Lowes and/or Home Depot that are significantly less expensive than the models you would get at the John Deere dealer. The reason for the lower price is that the product is inferior (not junk, but definitely not up to the traditional level of John Deere quality). If someone buys one of the lower end tractors, they may be disappointed with the quality and decide that John Deere is junk - that's not good for business long term.

The various lines also make it confusing for the buyer - I'm not sure if I really got a good deal on the HF suit I bought today because HF makes so many different product lines. Based on the descriptions in this thread, I'm pretty sure I got at least a middle of the line HF suit for $399, but I'm not sure. Hopefully the pictures I posted will help someone tell me just exactly what I ended up with.


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## indylion (Feb 28, 2005)

greynolds said:


> I have a really hard time finding suits at discount locations (or even normal stores without a special order) in my size (54L), but I picked up the 1 suit they had in my size at the Kittery, ME Hickey Freeman outlet today for $399 (it was marked $499 and there was a $100 discount on suits at that price). How did I do?


greynolds,

Can you post pictures of the suit??? Good quality 52L and 54L on sale is a rare find.

Our own Rider has his office at Franco's. Before returing HF suits back to HF, maybe he could sell some Franco's HF suits here:icon_smile_big:


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## greynolds (Aug 19, 2007)

indylion said:


> greynolds,
> 
> Can you post pictures of the suit??? Good quality 52L and 54L on sale is a rare find.
> 
> Our own Rider has his office at Franco's. Before returing HF suits back to HF, maybe he could sell some Franco's HF suits here:icon_smile_big:


Sure, but it will have to wait till tomorrow and the trousers are currently at the tailor's. The jacket appears to fit fine with either minimal or no changes needed, but the trousers need to be brought in and (obviously) hemmed. From the tag photos, is it clear exactly what I got, quality wise? I ~think~ I got a really good deal, but I'm not sure...


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

Capt Ron, The problem w/ asking ebay sellers is that they likely will not know; that's why it's good to educate yourself. I'd stick to something NWT, ask the seller for label pics, and ask for a return policy. BTW, HF is a great manufacturer, but they are kind of boxy (at least the Madison); std. drop is 5-6." 

PJC, I'm not worried about the availability of HF at deep discount--I see Canalis almost as frequently--but I do agree that the prevalence of the diffusion line, which I believe are made exclusively for discount stores, is a bit confusing, esp. given that $600 LTDs can be found on the rack next to mainlines for the same price. For the record, according to HF, LTDs are union made in the same factory. 

Greynolds, yours appears to be mainline. It would be hard to get one for less than you did.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

fullgrain said:


> Capt Ron, The problem w/ asking ebay sellers is that they likely will not know; that's why it's good to educate yourself. I'd stick to something NWT, ask the seller for label pics, and ask for a return policy. BTW, HF is a great manufacturer, but they are kind of boxy (at least the Madison); std. drop is 5-6."


I greatly appreciate your input. I never ever thought I would want smaller shoulders. 
At least I now know how to tell the difference. I feel so empowered.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

fullgrain said:


> Every so often, someone buys a Hickey Freeman at Nordstrom Rack or Off Fifth and wants to know what they've got. (Why HF insists on dicking around and blurring the lines between their lines, thus dilluting their brand name is another thread/rant.:icon_smile Anyway, here's the current lineup, far as I can tell.
> 
> Mainline Hickey Freemans (fully canvassed): Grey label on the inside jacket pocket with the name "Hickey Freeman" and interlocking "HF." The size tag inside the pocket will have a name, not a #, under model, like Madison or Barrett; check the website for current ones. Union made in USA. Original retail price should be north of $1400. Anything on the HF website will be mainline (confirmed via email)--they sometimes have good sales--and, I would guess, their retail stores. Don't know about outlets.
> 
> ...


It is pretty tough to tell what you're getting unless you know the product well, the store, and clothes. The label doesn't always tell the tale.

H-F has changed its labels a few times in the last 10 years.

H-F makes everything from a hand made suit (the "Hand Tailored" line) to a fully fused and fully machine made suit. There is no one standard of quality. Indeed, there are many levels of quality depending upon the order placed by the retailer.

To complicate matters, H-F makes suits for discount outlets, such as Syms and Century 21. The suits sold at these venues, a mere few blocks from its H-F store at 111 Broadway, are NOT the same that H-F carries at its own store. These suits at Syms are fully fused and at $500 are not much different from the Tommy Hilfiger suits sold at $200.

To further complicate matter, H-F makes clothes for various sales and outlet stores of major retailers, such as Barney's and others. E.g., Barney's purchases H-F suits for its warehouse sale. Typically, these purchases are made from H-F's surplus cloth inventory and at a sharp discount from H-F. I would not be surprised if the other outlets did the same, such as those operated by Neiman Marcus and Saks. Is the quality of a Barney's Warehouse H-F the same as the one sold on Madison Ave.? I don't know.

I recall that H-F suits were sold at Bloomingdale's about 5-7 years ago. They were less than $1,000, and they were awful. These were not the H-F suits being sold at Saks.

If you were to buy H-F on sale at a small store, such as Peter Elliott, it is most likely that the suit that you are buying on sale is the same one that was offered at full price. This is not necessarily the case when you buy at the Warehouse Sale.

If you buy on eBay, who knows what you're getting? I think that buying tailored clothes on eBay is a big gamble, but that's another subject.

IMO, your best bet is buying from a trusted retailer who stands behind the clothes that he sells.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

It appears that H-F has decided that the way to stay in business is to shotgun its brand across a wide range of price (and quality) levels. That said, I have a couple of the H-F Ltd. (i.e., cheaper) suits, and while they're not the equal of my full-line Hickey's, they're not bad considering what I paid for them.

Also, my impression of Syms and FB is that they have a mix of made-for-the-discount-trade H-F items (such as H-F Ltd. suits and sportcoats) and fully canvassed H-Fs that they get from retailers' overstocks. You need to know how to evaluate a suit, but that's not rocket science, and there are some good buys out there if you have a modicum of shopping know-how. Happy hunting.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

greynolds said:


> I have a really hard time finding suits at discount locations (or even normal stores without a special order) in my size (54L), but I picked up the 1 suit they had in my size at the Kittery, ME Hickey Freeman outlet today for $399 (it was marked $499 and there was a $100 discount on suits at that price). How did I do?


Every HF suit I've seen that had the model name on the sleeve tag and on the tag inside the inner pocket has been from their core line. They've been fully canvassed. So you probably did very well. I do agree with son of brummell, however, in that once every few years, they seem to have line and label changes, so the only way to know for sure what you've got is to see if you can feel a canvas between the outer shell fabric and the inner lining. The canvas would not be glued or stitched to the outer fabric, so if you pulled lightly on both the inner lining and the outer shell, you should be able to detect the canvas in between (there'd be 3 separate layers: inner lining, canvas, & outer shell fabric).

Consistent with Son of Brummel's post about HF making suits to a certain standard for specific retailers, this suit has the black HF Collection label, which I don't seen much anymore on their main line suits; instead, I usually see a gray HF label. The HF Collection label used to be used for all main line suits when HF was still making all those suits with hand stitched button holes (but not much other hand tailoring, the amount of which they seem to have reduced over time, espcially since the late 80's). The core line suits I've seen with the gray label have very little hand tailoring despite the canvassing, so it may be that the store for which this suit was made made a special request for the label, or perhaps for more hand stitching, too. I don't think that this is an older suit (despite the HF Collec. label), because it is the Madison model, which I had never seen until they started using the gray label.

As to HF Ltd., their diffusion or lower line, it is a decent suit; it's just 1/2 canvassed rather than fully canvassed (never seen a HF fully fused suit, but if Son of Brummel says they exist, they must). I prefer HF Ltd. to HSM, which also makes a good suit. The canvas they use in the lapel area and upper body for a HF Ltd. feels as if it is the same type HF uses for its fully canvassed suits, and the canvas in an HSM doesn't seem as soft, and it seems thinner, too.


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

Are all H-F suits made in Rochester? Maybe the lower level suits are made by parent company Hartmarx elsewhere.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

cgc said:


> Are all H-F suits made in Rochester? Maybe the lower level suits are made by parent company Hartmarx elsewhere.


Someone posted a year or two ago that because of HF having difficulty finding enough skilled tailors in Rochester, HF started sending at least some of the Burberry suits, which HF makes, to mfg. sites outside of Rochester. Maybe someone who lives up that way has more up-to-date details they could share.


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## printemps2001us (Dec 20, 2007)

cgc said:


> I see the 'Hand Tailored' line at Filene's Basement for $600 from time to time.


I believe these used to be the "customized" line which used to appear at Century 21 from time to time.


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## Shvitzer (Jul 2, 2009)

*Similar question*

Hello, everyone. This is my first post, and I have a question along the same lines as this older thread. 

I recently purchased a Hickey Freeman suit for about $500 at Neiman Marcus Last Call. As far as I can tell, it is a mainline HF, not HF LTD, etc. It is a Madison model winter-weight suit, 92% worsted wool and 8% cashmere. It has the grey HF label and the HF embroidered monogram inside the coat, and it seems to be fully canvassed. However, while many of the other HF suits had what appeared to be true horn buttons, the buttons on my suit are thinner and appear to be made of plastic. The buttons have been expertly sewn on with a thread shank, but they still seem cheap by comparison. Other suits of the same model and fabric as mine but in other colors/sizes had the better buttons. What really concerns me is that the store did have some of the lower quality LTD suits which had same plastic-looking buttons as mine. 

So, my question is: what's the deal with the buttons? Did they run out during the manufacturing process or lose a button in the store and just sew on what they had available? I know I can easily replace them, but I'm just trying to make sure I got the quality of suit that I think I did. Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks!

- Shvitzer


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Shvitzer said:


> Hello, everyone. This is my first post, and I have a question along the same lines as this older thread.
> 
> I recently purchased a Hickey Freeman suit for about $500 at Neiman Marcus Last Call. As far as I can tell, it is a mainline HF, not HF LTD, etc. It is a Madison model winter-weight suit, 92% worsted wool and 8% cashmere. It has the grey HF label and the HF embroidered monogram inside the coat, and it seems to be fully canvassed. However, while many of the other HF suits had what appeared to be true horn buttons, the buttons on my suit are thinner and appear to be made of plastic. The buttons have been expertly sewn on with a thread shank, but they still seem cheap by comparison. Other suits of the same model and fabric as mine but in other colors/sizes had the better buttons. What really concerns me is that the store did have some of the lower quality LTD suits which had same plastic-looking buttons as mine.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it was an overstock and they put cheaper buttons on it because they were sending it to an off price store (they do often go to the trouble of removing tags indicating the retailer for whom the suit was made when they end up shipping it to an off price store, so I guess they could change the buttons). No way to know the exact reason for this (unless perhaps someone in the trade who deals with HF knows the reason).


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

*Buttons*

You can probably call HF and ask for more buttons. I did this once. I have a navy blazer and I felt like changing the buttons from the dull HF "coin" to a brass "HF" logo button. No problem and no charge.

I actually sewed them on myself and didn't do too bad a job.


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## Shvitzer (Jul 2, 2009)

Thanks to you both for the info and recommendation, smr and dks202. I'm impressed with your sewing skills, too, dks202...I think I may be forced to beg my wife to do it!

Thanks again, and have a happy Fourth of July.

- Shvitzer


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

morse said:


> 2. The lining of HF Ltd. models is the one used in Burberry suits (made by HF), and is somewhat textured and duller, while the lining of the HF mainline models is smoother and shinier. Comparing the two side by side should demonstrate this difference.


I know this is an old thread but I found it, and thought I should weigh-in: The lining in my H-F made Burberry suit is complete cr*p. The suit has become almost useless b/c the lining has disintegrated so badly that I cant remove the coat when I wear it. If I do, my shirt sleeves are covered in lining fibers.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

I just picked up a HF Milburn suit today at Nordstrom Rack. I don't know where this falls in their collection but it's 100% worsted wool and the tag inside the jacket says it's union made. I can't seem to find any info on this particular suit and whether or not it's canvassed or not. It fits nicely though and I nabbed the last one in my size, so I feel like I got a good deal.


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## ATL (Nov 29, 2011)

After reading through this thread, I'm pretty sure my most recent thrift find is mainline and fully canvassed (my first HF without moth holes!) and is the older version of the Madison, but do you guys have a vintage for this label? I've been searching and searching, but can't find anything.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

That's going to be prior to 2000 when I bought my first "modern" suit with the black collection label. That should be one of the good ones before HF got cheap on us.

The grey label is more recent.


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## ATL (Nov 29, 2011)

Awesome! So I essentially bought a $1000 suit for $13 plus dry cleaning fees? It's a 38 short, so it fits me, but the pants are double pleated. I'll most likely keep it anyway and wear it with pride!


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