# My first ever visit to Joseph A Bank



## DaveTrader (Jun 11, 2011)

Not twenty minutes ago, I stopped in to the brand new store in town today and this was my first ever visit to a Joseph A Bank store. I was greeted by a very nice young man who asked if he could help. I replied that I was just looking and that if I had any questions I would call on him.

Looking through the store I was surprised to see much more casual clothing than business attire. At least one full half of the store is dedicated to casualwear. After looking around for a bit, I finally made my way over to the suits in my size. I found some of the fabrics to be quite nice. At which point, I called the young man over to ask a few questions.

"Can you tell me if any of these suits are half or fully canvassed? Or are they all fused?"

Without saying a word, he turned on his heel and walked away to get the sales manager. The lady sales manager, another female associate and the young man returned to answer my questions. The sales manager says, "Sir, did you have a question?" I repeated my questions.

The female associate replied with knowledge and confidence, "Most of these suits are year-round or tropical weight". To which the sales manager agreed. They all looked at each other knowingly. I said that I wasn't inquiring about the wool fabrics, I was inquiring about the construction of the garment. 

The sales manager replied defiantly, "Sir, all of our suits are made of wool, we don't carry any that are made of canvass!"

It's doubtful that I will return.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

DaveTrader said:


> Not twenty minutes ago, I stopped in to the brand new store in town today and this was my first ever visit to a Joseph A Bank store. I was greeted by a very nice young man who asked if he could help. I replied that I was just looking and that if I had any questions I would call on him.
> 
> Looking through the store I was surprised to see much more casual clothing than business attire. At least one full half of the store is dedicated to casualwear. After looking around for a bit, I finally made my way over to the suits in my size. I found some of the fabrics to be quite nice. At which point, I called the young man over to ask a few questions.
> 
> ...


to be fair, you can't expect all salepeople to be knowledgeable about the construction of a suit, especially from a Jos A. Banks store. I think the best way to determine the construction of a suit is to do a little research online, or contact JAB via email to have your question answered, rather than come off as a snob.


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## sargeantpepper (Mar 27, 2011)

I think that's par for the course, even at some "higher end" stores, you could have just pinch tested the suit yourself.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

As a former (very brief) employee of Jos. A. Bank, I can assure that your experience is not unusual at all. The company's training provides no insight whatsoever into the construction of garments, their proper fit, or really anything that a person buying a suit needs or wants to know. Just "medium weight year-round," "double breasted is out of style," and don't carry merchandise out the back. I won't tell people never to buy anything there, but the one thing you should never do is take the advice of an employee.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Not long ago someone else posted the same experience, albeit at an unnamed store. see post 8 https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...bout-quot-Chest-Piece-quot-)&highlight=diduch

To answer your question, Signature Platinum may be full canvassed. Signature Golds are half canvassed. The rest are full fused. You are right that some of the fabrics are quite nice, especially at their price point. JAB is a chain where one goes to buy what one wants and then takes it to his own tailor. It is not a place that one goes to for help, advise, or answers.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Titus_A said:


> As a former (very brief) employee of Jos. A. Bank, I can assure that your experience is not unusual at all. The company's training provides no insight whatsoever into the construction of garments, their proper fit, or really anything that a person buying a suit needs or wants to know. Just "medium weight year-round," "double breasted is out of style," and don't carry merchandise out the back. I won't tell people never to buy anything there, but the one thing you should never do is take the advice of an employee.


A man who knows.
What's the employee discount?


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## Chipmoose (Jul 7, 2011)

What's the employee discount?.....buy 2 get one free of course! :icon_smile_wink:


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## DaveTrader (Jun 11, 2011)

gaseousclay said:


> to be fair, you can't expect all salepeople to be knowledgeable about the construction of a suit, especially from a Jos A. Banks store. I think the best way to determine the construction of a suit is to do a little research online, or contact JAB via email to have your question answered, rather than come off as a snob.


No offense, but I find your response to be ridiculous. I'm not coming down on the employees - it's not their fault that they don't know their own products. I blame the corporation. I _should_, in fact, expect my salesperson to be knowledgeable about what they are selling. Their prices aren't bargain basement prices, and they aren't selling them off of the back of a truck, so educating their employees a bit should not be out of the question.

If I am paying decent money for their offerings, why should I have to research online what it is they are selling? Shouldn't they be able to tell me?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

I'm a customer for the online ease availability and prices of their long rise trousers.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

You are coming down on the employees.
I find this at other discussion forums as well. Particpants spend hours reading posts, learn some new terminology, and become an instant expert.
Next step is to visit a retail store, grlll the hourly wage selling floor employee to make that employee feel inadequate, walk out with a self satisfied smirk, and rush home to their computer to write about it.



DaveTrader said:


> No offense, but I find your response to be ridiculous. I'm not coming down on the employees - it's not their fault that they don't know their own products. I blame the corporation. I _should_, in fact, expect my salesperson to be knowledgeable about what they are selling. Their prices aren't bargain basement prices, and they aren't selling them off of the back of a truck, so educating their employees a bit should not be out of the question.
> 
> If I am paying decent money for their offerings, why should I have to research online what it is they are selling? Shouldn't they be able to tell me?


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## DaveTrader (Jun 11, 2011)

DG123 said:


> You are coming down on the employees.
> I find this at other discussion forums as well. Particpants spend hours reading posts, learn some new terminology, and become an instant expert.
> Next step is to visit a retail store, grlll the hourly wage selling floor employee to make that employee feel inadequate, walk out with a self satisfied smirk, and rush home to their computer to write about it.


Did you have that same self-satisfied smirk on your face when you wrote this?


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

DaveTrader said:


> Did you have that same self-satisfied smirk on your face when you wrote this?


Burn!!

But seriously, I've had the same experience at many retail stores. Brooks Bros., Orvis, L.L. Bean etc. In most cases the offenders have been either young, seasonal and/or female (I've also encountered some female sales associates that can fully outfit a customer for fly fishing just by knowing where they're fishing and what they're fishing for, so let's not go down that road).

It's not just a JAB thing, or even a clothing thing (ever try to buy some tires without being asked if your car has A/C?). It's just the wide gap between manufacturing and retail. Unless a particular sales associate is very passionate about what they sell, chances are they have zero connection to the origins of their product and it shows in their lack of knowledge. You just did the equivalent of asking a supermarket employee whether their milk comes from Holstein or Jersey cows and they answered to the best of their ability ("I don't think any of our milk comes from New Jersey, sir"). I wouldn't turn it into a reason to avoid shopping somewhere.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

I would be thrilled when the young man actually stepped up with a cheerful greeting to help you. Anything beyond that would be a bonus!


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

jeffdeist said:


> I would be thrilled when the young man actually stepped up with a cheerful greeting to help you. Anything beyond that would be a bonus!


+ 1
My expectations have moderated over the years.


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## DaveTrader (Jun 11, 2011)

jeffdeist said:


> I would be thrilled when the young man actually stepped up with a cheerful greeting to help you. Anything beyond that would be a bonus!


Yes unforntunately that is true. But it's a sad state of affairs. If I wanted to buy a decent quality suit, how would they know what to sell me? The higher price? So if I said, what makes this more expensive suit better than this cheaper one? What would they answer?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I also think you are a bit quick to write of JAB over that. I've not shopped there because I have a men's store in Lansing I like as well that is more in my price range.

Where would you go in Ann Arbor if not there? I suppose you aren't too far from the Brooks Brothers in the Detroit Area.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

DaveTrader said:


> So if I said, what makes this more expensive suit better than this cheaper one? What would they answer?


Thread count: they would tell you that the Signature line is made from Super 110s, a softer and more luxurious fabric, and that the Signature Golds and Platinums are made from whatever Super 120s and up, which must obviously be better because the number is higher.



Akirshner said:


> What's the employee discount?


Pretty good, if I recall. I think it was 15 or 20% on shoes, accessories, and non-tailored clothing and 40% on tailored clothing, but only off regular price. I was there before the crash, so on most days we were actually selling most of our merchandise at sticker price. I think the only day I actually bought anything was on the (then!) semi-annual half-off sale.


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## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

It appears the OP went in there with intention not of buying a suit, but rather the intention to harass and belittle the staff for his own amusement. If this was the case, I think we can all agree it was not something a gentleman would do. A few responses within this thread certainly reaffirm that conclusion. 

Putting that aside, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect the Jos A Bank staff to know practically anything about suit construction. They’re a profit-driven business and they do quite well. The average consumer in today’s America doesn’t know what canvassed, half-canvassed, or fused means. It would, thus, make no sense for the company to make a corporate policy to spend time and money training their staff on subjects which do not matter to any of their customers. This additional cost would, of course, ultimately be transferred to consumers and I suspect that is something of which both the company’s management and its bread-and-butter consumer would be in favor. Frankly, someone who cared wouldn’t need to ask a salesman if something was canvassed. Beyond those people, almost no one in this entire country gives half a rip – I would suspect less than a quarter of a percent of Jos A Bank customers across the country. Of course, I suspect the only people who ask questions like this are those who walk into the store with the intention of belittling the store’s staff. 

It’s about expectations. In life, it generally pays to have realistic ones. If I walk into a nicer men’s shop on Madison Avenue where I’m expected to pay close to $1000 for a blazer or $1500+ for a suit, I would look for sophisticated questions about construction/materials/etc. (not “is this canvassed?”) to be either greeted with an answer or to be told that the salesman can make some calls and get me the information I need. That is a question to a professional salesman – presumably adequately compensated and most likely with many years’ experience – selling a relatively high dollar item. If, on the other hand, I’m walking into Jos A Bank, who’s business model is clearly to give you a bunch of (kindly put) mid-level goods at a rock-bottom price, I’m not expecting the hourly-waged salesman to be terribly knowledgeable about what he’s selling. He’s a cog in the corporate machine, and one at the lowest rung. It would be inappropriate to have unrealistically high expectations about his knowledge of suits – his last job was probably on the floor at a similar chain retail store, perhaps not even selling clothes. If you're expectations are realistic, you'll rarely find yourself disappointed.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

DG123 said:


> You are coming down on the employees.
> I find this at other discussion forums as well. Particpants spend hours reading posts, learn some new terminology, and become an instant expert.
> Next step is to visit a retail store, grlll the hourly wage selling floor employee to make that employee feel inadequate, walk out with a self satisfied smirk, and rush home to their computer to write about it.


 Although it has been my experience that humiliating employees is principally a job perk exercised by those in management with a sadistic streak, no doubt there are some customers who behave that way. Still there is no reason to believe Mr. Trader behaved that way. All we have is that he went in the store, asked a question, received a stupid answer, and left.

It is not that uncommon for a customer to know more than the sales staff. I hope my electrician knows more than the salesman at Lowes. Sometimes a customer who does not make a living in the business knows more than a salesman. Men's clothing is business in which a knowledgeable customer can, without that much study, know more than a salesman.

The question every man faces when he knows more than the salesman is how to respond. I believe a fellow member here has set an example we should all emulate, and not just in clothing stores.

Not long ago our friend, Wisco, went into a store, (I believe it was Brooks Brothers) where the saleswoman stated, as if it was fact, something he knew very well was false. Instead of remonstrating her, Wisco simply nodded his head, smiled, and said, "I know." His response struck me like an epiphany. WISCO'S RULE: A gentleman has no obligation to correct the ignorant.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

PMRuby said:


> If you're expectations are realistic, you'll rarely find yourself disappointed.


This may be true. But if your expectations are realistic, you'll never achieve greatness either.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

PMRuby said:


> It appears the OP went in there with intention not of buying a suit, but rather the intention to harass and belittle the staff for his own amusement. If this was the case, I think we can all agree it was not something a gentleman would do. A few responses within this thread certainly reaffirm that conclusion.
> 
> Putting that aside, I don't think it's realistic to expect the Jos A Bank staff to know practically anything about suit construction. They're a profit-driven business and they do quite well. The average consumer in today's America doesn't know what canvassed, half-canvassed, or fused means. It would, thus, make no sense for the company to make a corporate policy to spend time and money training their staff on subjects which do not matter to any of their customers. This additional cost would, of course, ultimately be transferred to consumers and I suspect that is something of which both the company's management and its bread-and-butter consumer would be in favor. Frankly, someone who cared wouldn't need to ask a salesman if something was canvassed. Beyond those people, almost no one in this entire country gives half a rip - I would suspect less than a quarter of a percent of Jos A Bank customers across the country. Of course, I suspect the only people who ask questions like this are those who walk into the store with the intention of belittling the store's staff.
> 
> It's about expectations. In life, it generally pays to have realistic ones. If I walk into a nicer men's shop on Madison Avenue where I'm expected to pay close to $1000 for a blazer or $1500+ for a suit, I would look for sophisticated questions about construction/materials/etc. (not "is this canvassed?") to be either greeted with an answer or to be told that the salesman can make some calls and get me the information I need. That is a question to a professional salesman - presumably adequately compensated and most likely with many years' experience - selling a relatively high dollar item. If, on the other hand, I'm walking into Jos A Bank, who's business model is clearly to give you a bunch of (kindly put) mid-level goods at a rock-bottom price, I'm not expecting the hourly-waged salesman to be terribly knowledgeable about what he's selling. He's a cog in the corporate machine, and one at the lowest rung. It would be inappropriate to have unrealistically high expectations about his knowledge of suits - his last job was probably on the floor at a similar chain retail store, perhaps not even selling clothes. If you're expectations are realistic, you'll rarely find yourself disappointed.


I could not disagree more with every aspect of your assessment of the situation with the original post.

I fail to see why you feel so comfortable believing that the original poster went into the JOS Banks store with the intention of harassing and belittling the staff. I don't see anything in his post that indicated that he adopted a negative posture with the staff.

Using fast food workers as the most ubiquitous example of low end employment, I think it's fair to say that there is a measurable amount of training each and every worker goes through in order to become minimally competent at their job. I also believe that is is completely fair to expect any employee of JOS Banks to get an answer to a customer's question even if they, themselves, do not know the answer.

If JOS Banks breaks down their product lines by fused and half canvassed, which they do, it is completely fair to expect that *someone* at every store knows this fact.

I do agree that I would not expect an hourly waged employee to be "terribly knowledgeable" about the products they sell knowing he is but "a cog in the corporate machine." But again, knowing that JOS Banks does delineate their lines by whether the product is fused or half canvassed, it's completely fair to expect a employee who is unaware of this to be able top get the answer in a friendly professional manor.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

127.72 MHz said:


> I could not disagree more with every aspect of your assessment of the situation with the original post.
> 
> I fail to see why you feel so comfortable believing that the original poster went into the JOS Banks store with the intention of harassing and belittling the staff. I don't see anything in his post that indicated that he adopted a negative posture with the staff.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

127.72 MHz said:


> If JOS Banks breaks down their product lines by fused and half canvassed, which they do, it is completely fair to expect that *someone* at every store knows this fact.


I see no point in debating the entirety of an issue on which we clearly won't agree. This comment strikes me as particularly odd, though, so I will respond to it alone.

Very simply, this isn't the way a business with thousands of employees operates. You can't have a policy where one person at each store (assuming, even for the sake of this, that each properly-trained individual works 100% of working hours and never takes a vacation or calls in sick) knows something. Either everyone is trained on something, or no one is. That is how corporate policies work. Teaching your entire staff something is expensive and time-consuming. Teaching them something so well that they are comfortable speaking about it with customers and answering questions about it is very, very expensive and time-consuming. In some cases, when the stakes are particularly high, the company must do this, even if winds up being useless for virtually all - think sexual/gender/racial discrimination talks that are given to all people on their first day at most large companies. In other cases, it is not worth incurring the expense to train everyone on something. This is the case with teaching low-level, likely short-term employees about the canvas/half canvas/fused distinction. An expectation that "it is completely fair to expect that someone" at each locations knows something is the opposite of 'completely fair;' it is actually completely unrealistic in practice. Your only expectations, when it comes to the low-level employees of a large corporation, should either be that all know something, or that no one does. This is as true of Jos A Bank as it is of McDonald's.

I wonder how many times this question gets asked each day in every Jos A Bank across the country. I would suspect suspect there are many days when it's never mentioned at a single location. As I said earlier, people who care already know, if they choose to go into a Jos A Bank, and need not ask; the very vast majority - I'd suspect 998 or more out of 1000 customers - simply don't care. I see no reason to expect a company to train all employees on something that is so highly unlikely to ever be used and, accordingly, just as unlikely to generate added value.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

^^^

There has to be quite a bit of training on how to use computers for sales, inventory, returns,credit card charges and returns as well as training how to mark clothes for alterations. It would not be too much for each store to have a copy of Flusser and have new employees take it home and read it.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

I believe his point was that *no one there, manager included, *knew what he was talking about. This is hardly acceptable at a specialty store.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

No big surprise. No big deal. No reason to take an attitude, boycott the store, or start a thread IMO.

A clothing enthusiast has more knowledge than a clothing store employee.
An automotive enthusiast knows things that the 55 year old guy behind the counter at Auto Zone doesn't know.
A literary enthusiast knows more about literature than the bookstore employee.

No need to be indignant about any of it.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

Sure it is. It works. They're making money. As has been stated, very few people will ask these questions. Even fewer will shop at JAB. It is not cost effective to highly train every associate for a few questions each year which may or may not have any impact on the sale. Don't like their lack of knowledge? Fine, go find a bespoke tailor who knows the answer to your every question and pay him twice as much. Don't expect a master's knowledge for an apprentice's price.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm with Steve. If this young salesperson seemed so enthusiastic perhaps it might have been a good opportunity to explain to him why you're asking such a question and what the benefits of a canvased suit were. He would have learned something that he could pass on and might even do a little research so he could be more knowledgable about the subject. 

Heck, he even might thank you by letting you know when the AEs they stock will be on deep discount and set them aside for ya. Idk.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

A few weeks ago, I was in a Brooks Brothers store looking a some flannel trousers. I asked if they had any idea what the fabric weight was. Two different employees had that ol' "deer in the headlights" look and were incapable of giving an answer. Other Brooks employees have told me their Peal line was made at "the Peal factory in England." Now certainly, we expect more of Brooks than JAB. One should simply not expect much of retail clerks in most places where clothing is sold. I sold menswear when I was 17, back in 1959, at the old May Company, Wilshire. I didn't know jack squat about the subject!

Hanzo, if you know of a bespoke tailor who can make me a decent suit at twice the price of a JAB Sig Gold at a 70% off discount (not uncommon), please let me know!


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

I forgot one. Jan knows more about guns and shooting than the guy at the gun shop.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

arkirshner said:


> Not long ago our friend, Wisco, went into a store, (I believe it was Brooks Brothers) where the saleswoman stated, as if it was fact, something he knew very well was false. Instead of remonstrating her, Wisco simply nodded his head, smiled, and said, "I know." His response struck me like an epiphany. WISCO'S RULE: A gentleman has no obligation to correct the ignorant.


The thought that leaving her ignorant might lead another into a ill-advised purchase would give me pause. It may not be my responsibility, but I think I'd try to impart the truth of the matter. I've had a salesperson or two come up to me and confirm some statement I've made on previous occasions shopping.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

They really should know more about their product lines, especially the manager. That is pretty sad state of affairs. Especially when you consider many potential customers would have more faith in buying from someone with a good knowledge. All they'd have to say is something like, "This is our Signature line. It uses no fusing -- that is no glue -- to keep its shape, but has a stitched woven canvas inside. All that really means to you is that it will mould to your body over time and be more comfortable, look better, and hold up at the dry cleaners over the years." The customer who was ready to pay the lowest price may now consider paying more. Simple logic.



Titus_A said:


> Thread count: they would tell you that the Signature line is made from Super 110s, a softer and more luxurious fabric, and that the Signature Golds and Platinums are made from whatever Super 120s and up, which must obviously be better because the number is higher.


Both of those are widespread misconceptions. It isn't thread count, it's the fineness of the wool fibre measured in micrometres. Also, the higher the Super, the more it will wrinkle and not hold up as well over time.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> This may be true. But if your expectations are realistic, you'll never achieve greatness either.


...but then again and regardless of levels of expectation, very few actually do...except perhaps in the confines of their own minds! Alas, only a very, very few of even the most woefully misinformed work at Jos A. Bank.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

PMRuby said:


> I see no point in debating the entirety of an issue on which we clearly won't agree. This comment strikes me as particularly odd, though, so I will respond to it alone.
> 
> Very simply, this isn't the way a business with thousands of employees operates. You can't have a policy where one person at each store (assuming, even for the sake of this, that each properly-trained individual works 100% of working hours and never takes a vacation or calls in sick) knows something. Either everyone is trained on something, or no one is. That is how corporate policies work. Teaching your entire staff something is expensive and time-consuming. Teaching them something so well that they are comfortable speaking about it with customers and answering questions about it is very, very expensive and time-consuming. In some cases, when the stakes are particularly high, the company must do this, even if winds up being useless for virtually all - think sexual/gender/racial discrimination talks that are given to all people on their first day at most large companies. In other cases, it is not worth incurring the expense to train everyone on something. This is the case with teaching low-level, likely short-term employees about the canvas/half canvas/fused distinction. An expectation that "it is completely fair to expect that someone" at each locations knows something is the opposite of 'completely fair;' it is actually completely unrealistic in practice. Your only expectations, when it comes to the low-level employees of a large corporation, should either be that all know something, or that no one does. This is as true of Jos A Bank as it is of McDonald's.
> 
> I wonder how many times this question gets asked each day in every Jos A Bank across the country. I would suspect suspect there are many days when it's never mentioned at a single location. As I said earlier, people who care already know, if they choose to go into a Jos A Bank, and need not ask; the very vast majority - I'd suspect 998 or more out of 1000 customers - simply don't care. I see no reason to expect a company to train all employees on something that is so highly unlikely to ever be used and, accordingly, just as unlikely to generate added value.


There are many options between the false choices of (a) training everyone on the finer points of suit construction and (b) training no one. For example:

OP: "Are the jackets fused, half-canvassed, or fully canvassed?"
Saleman: "I don't know, but let me get my manager. One moment please."

OPTION1:
Manager: "I'm sorry, but I do not know the answer to your question, but let me take down your name and phone number so that someone from the home office can call you with an informed answer."

OPTION2:
Manager: "You know, I'm glad you asked that question. I have a book in the back office that details the specs for all of our clothing. If you have a moment, let me bring it out and we can research it together."

OPTION3:
Manager: ""You know, I'm glad you asked that question. If you have a moment, let me call my regional manager. He should know or if he doesn't, he'll know who to ask."

It could be as simple as that. Instead of a confrontation at a newly opened store (which is probably a bad thing), the OP and sales staff team up.

The OP gets his answer, the sales staff are being helpful, the bottom line isn't impacted by training everyone with "useless" information, and Jos Bank could get a sale or at the very least gets another person they can add to their catalog mailing list. Everyone wins.


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## Bricktop (Feb 10, 2010)

I don't see how the OP was being a snob or asking a left field question. How long does it take one to learn about fusing and canvassing? Under 30 seconds if you're a slow reader will start you off well.



Jovan said:


> All they'd have to say is something like, "This is our Signature line. It uses no fusing -- that is no glue -- to keep its shape, but has a stitched woven canvas inside. All that really means to you is that it will mould to your body over time and be more comfortable, look better, and hold up at the dry cleaners over the years."


Not so hard, right? And yet no-one in the store except the OP knew that? That's crappy training in my book. And if I was the SA or the superior who was asked that question yesterday, I would sure as heck have learned the answer by today.


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## MRR (Nov 19, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> OPTION2:
> Manager: "You know, I'm glad you asked that question. I have a book in the back office that details the specs for all of our clothing. If you have a moment, let me bring it out and we can research it together."


I think that you are misunderstanding what question the manager heard.

When asked if the suit was fully canvassed, the manager thought the question was referring to the fabric used (and she knew the answer). She wasn't even aware that the question referred to construction. She answered the question correctly based on what she thought was being asked.

JAB is the McDonalds of the clothing world. While they are a specialty store catering to men's clothing, their employees are not haberdashers; they are salesmen. Their job is to know how to work the registers, help people get into suits, and talk about how wonderful today's special sale is. Most employees in a setting like that don't care enough about the product to learn more, as this is just a temporary job. Those that do actually know about fashion and suit construction would be a three-star chef working at said McDonalds. They might be there for a week or two before getting fed up and leaving.

You have to accept JAB for what it is; a low price store where people can usually get decent suits for a good price. It is not a specialty men's shop where the salesman is also the person who orders the suits and does the alterations and keeps apprised of fashion trends.

And as for the original question asked; many suit companies seem to twist the truth about how their suits are constructed. I don't think you can expect JAB to let their low-wage workers know some of the lower-quality aspects of the suits just so they can blurt it out to every customer that walks in the door.


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## DaveTrader (Jun 11, 2011)

Wow, this thread has taken on a life of it's own. I originally posted because I thought the answer I received was a bit humorous. Let me finish by saying that I am in sales myself and I feel for every young salesperson - I was one once. I did not leave the store with anyone feeling degraded in any way. I didn't correct them or educate them (maybe I should have) before I left, but I simply smiled and thanked them for wanting to help.

My real issue is with the company. Their sales staff has no idea what they are selling. They don't know the basics of what they are selling and as mentioned, it would take all of one hour of training to accomplish. I am a bit disturbed by how many of us are willing to expect and settle for mediocrity. This should not be the case regardless of the dollar amount involved.

Lastly, I would like to apologize to DG123 for my uncalled for retort.


DT


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Taken Aback said:


> The thought that leaving her ignorant might lead another into a ill-advised purchase would give me pause. It may not be my responsibility, but I think I'd try to impart the truth of the matter. I've had a salesperson or two come up to me and confirm some statement I've made on previous occasions shopping.


Your experience, while similar is nontheless distinguishable in an important respect from the experiences of the OP and Wisco. That you have had salepeople come up to you and comment on your prior statements is because you have been in there before, they know you, and you have acquired the reputation of knowing what you are talking about. On the other hand the OP and Wisco were in stores where they were not known.
The normal reaction of someone being corrected by a stranger is to be defensive and take the position the stranger is wrong. Moreover, ignorance has its levels and even an ignorant salesman has exsperienced even more ignorant customers insist on things the salesman knows are wrong. When you correct a salesman who does not know you,his normal reaction is to lump you into the even more ignorant than he catagory and respond accordingly. This may degenerate into an unpleasant "I'm right, you're wrong" disputation. h

In short, under certain circumstances it is appropriate to attempt to correct ignorance, while in other circumstances it is not. Wisco's Rule does not hold that one should never corrrect the ignorant, only that a gentleman has no obligation to correct the ignorant. I'm sure, that as a gentleman, you determined that you found yourself in circumstances in which a correction was appropriate. On the other hand, Wisco, and the OP, found themselves in different circumstances, circumstances in which they, as a gentleman, determined restraint was the better course.

The arrogant will always correct the ignorant, the submissive never will, the gentleman considers the circumstances and chooses the better course.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

PMRuby said:


> I see no point in debating the entirety of an issue on which we clearly won't agree. This comment strikes me as particularly odd, though, so I will respond to it alone.


For not seeing any point in debating the entirety of the issue you've done quite a lengthy job of it, at least, for part of the issue.

Again I disagree with your basic premise. The bottom line? Very few, if any, employees can be expected to know the answer to every question about the business they are involved in. But *every employee* should be happy to *find *an answer posed to them by a customer *and they should do it in a courteous and professional manor*.

Period. No middle ground.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

DaveTrader said:


> No offense, but I find your response to be ridiculous. I'm not coming down on the employees - it's not their fault that they don't know their own products. I blame the corporation. I _should_, in fact, expect my salesperson to be knowledgeable about what they are selling. Their prices aren't bargain basement prices, and they aren't selling them off of the back of a truck, so educating their employees a bit should not be out of the question.
> 
> If I am paying decent money for their offerings, why should I have to research online what it is they are selling? Shouldn't they be able to tell me?


You went into a JAB store, presumably at a mall, with the assumption that the employees would be knowledgeable on suit construction. That was your fist mistake. I interpreted your response to the salesperson and sales manager as snobbish and belittling. Now, had you gone into a proper haberdasher and asked these same questions i'm sure you would have been given the answers you sought. Instead, you admonish some lowly salesperson for not knowing the construction of a suit, come on the forum to b*tch about it and then get snarky when you disagree with opposing views on how you handled the situation. I bought a Hickey Freeman suit from Nordstrom Rack the other day, but I kinda of already knew what I was buying. I had no intention of asking a salesperson about the construction of the suit because it's a Nordstrom Rack store and I don't expect their employees to know anything about suit construction. So, as I said earlier, if you had simply done your homework and looked it up online or contacted JAB directly you might've gotten the response you were looking for. Instead, you walked into a JAB store with a holier than thou attitude when the employees didn't know what you were talking about. Par for the course


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

gaseousclay said:


> You went into a JAB store, presumably at a mall, with the assumption that the employees would be knowledgeable on suit construction. That was your fist mistake. I interpreted your response to the salesperson and sales manager as snobbish and belittling. Now, had you gone into a proper haberdasher and asked these same questions i'm sure you would have been given the answers you sought. Instead, you admonish some lowly salesperson for not knowing the construction of a suit, come on the forum to b*tch about it and then get snarky when you disagree with opposing views on how you handled the situation. I bought a Hickey Freeman suit from Nordstrom Rack the other day, but I kinda of already knew what I was buying. I had no intention of asking a salesperson about the construction of the suit because it's a Nordstrom Rack store and I don't expect their employees to know anything about suit construction. So, as I said earlier, if you had simply done your homework and looked it up online or contacted JAB directly you might've gotten the response you were looking for. Instead, you walked into a JAB store with a holier than thou attitude when the employees didn't know what you were talking about. Par for the course


Wait a minute. Putting your general argument aside for a moment, you have your facts wrong. How can you possibly call the OPs response to the mgr.s answer "snobbish and belittling" when he made no response? He just left and posted what happened because it was amusing. What you accuse him of is something you made up. He is owed an apology.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Gaseous;

You've begun with an incorrect premise and run so far with it that it's become some kind of "Story" you've developed.

*Again the employee does not need to be knowledgeable about anything! They do however need to be able to get an answer for a prospective customer in a courteous manor! *

Had he gone to a "Proper haberdasher," (a tailor excepted) perhaps he could have been fleeced out of five to ten times what a given item is worth by this so called "Proper haberdasher" who's actually a reseller of assembly line clothing.

Your example of Nordstrom Rack is an apples to oranges comparison and is therefore irrelevant. Nordstrom Rack is in fact a department store selling everything from women's clothing to sheets and pillowcases. (not exclusively men's clothing.)

I do not see where the original post author walked into the JOS Banks store with any negative attitude. You've read this into his post for heaven only knows what reason.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

arkirshner said:


> Wait a minute. Putting your general argument aside for a moment, you have your facts wrong. How can you possibly call the OPs response to the mgr.s answer "snobbish and belittling" when he made no response? He just left and posted what happened because it was amusing. What you accuse him of is something you made up. He is owed an apology.


ok, my mistake. his announcing it to the forum was snobbish and belittling.


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

DaveTrader said:


> My real issue is with the company. Their sales staff has no idea what they are selling. They don't know the basics of what they are selling and as mentioned, it would take all of one hour of training to accomplish.


With all due respect, it would take a lot more than an hour to impart even a rudimentary education to a group of sales trainees. Fabric and jacket construction are only 2 of a many similar topics, e.g. a suit's drop, the rise in a pair of pants, etc. It would be nice to see ongoing education programs that covered the spectrum every year or two - but such effort costs money, and the cost of goods sold is only a small part of the selling price.

I think the real issue is that JAB couldn't sell those suits at their current prices (which aren't really discounted - these "sales" are just spins on their usual selling price in today's market) if they had to invest in even the most basic training for their employees. Most sales people are just people doing a job - very few are actually interested in the products they sell, and most in sales sell a diverse spectrum of goods over their working lifetimes. A sales person who really cares about his or her products and customers is rare, in my experience.

Most people don't even know that there are different ways of making a suit. Canvassing, shoulder design, fabric details etc are simply not things one learns in school - and 95+% of men will probably never own a jacket or suit that's not fused. Goodness of fit is a generally alien concept, as is recommending the best alternative for the customer's needs even if it's significantly less expensive than his initial choice (e.g. most Super 150s suits are not a wise choice for work wear on someone who slides in and out of chairs, cabs and trains all day).

And you can't forget the lack of intellectual curiosity that permeates our culture. Most people don't really pursue knowledge these days - they settle for a superficial acquaintance with fact that serves them in their daily interactions, rarely trying to learn more than they think they need to know.

The reason sales people in top quality places know so much is that the company invests in them - and that's part of why their goods cost so much more than JAB et al. Sad to say, you usually do get what you pay for. Maybe it's not so sad - what's sad is that so few are willing to pay for knowledge and experience, and even fewer deliver more than is expected of them. Reliable and helpful people are like teeth - you only have to take care of the ones you want to keep. That's why we're intensely loyal to the precious few we've found.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

The chance of a JAB suit being fully canvased, of course, is zero.


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## Sharpe (Apr 20, 2010)

I really don't see anything wrong with expecting employees, especially a Manager to know about the construction of their product. It seems strange to me that many are willing to give JAB a free pass, this isn't Wal-Mart where the prime purpose of employees are to restock and ring sales. They market themselves on their website as "The Experts in Men's Apparel". If the company isn't willing to put money into training their employees on product construction we can't hold it against the employee but it should be held against the company’s management team.

Can you imagine going into an AE, or Alden shop, asking if the shoes are Goodyear welted and the employee says "I am sorry sir but we do not sell tires here"


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

The Rambler said:


> The chance of a JAB suit being fully canvased, of course, is zero.


That is true of course at any store we might be likely to go into. I have not seen a Signature Platinum but a long time friend/acquaintance who has always worked in men's wear and who is now a JAB employee, who is stationed in Toledo but is sent several times a year to poor performing stores to give them a kick, told me that a Conn. store in a very up class location he was at for a month carried the platinums and they were canvassed. As I have not seen one myself I don't know, but it's possible.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I've done business with JAB for about 35 years, both the original and the current metastasized version. 



arkirshner;1250302
[FONT=tahoma said:


> Signature Golds are half canvassed[/FONT].


I have no doubt you're correct, and most likely know more about the issue than me. But in my last visit to an actual JAB store a couple years ago I took 10 or 15 minutes to examine the various JAB lines. The purpose of this remark is to remind myself and everyone else that applying terms such as canvassed, half-canvassed, etc., does not begin to tell us everything we need to know about a garment. 

Specifically, the Signature Gold suits I viewed looked, and felt, as if someone had wrapped the garish and cheap cloth from which they were made around slabs of cardboard of various thicknesses. I.e., thinner slabs for the lapels and chest, thicker ones for the shoulders. Half-canvased they may be, but it's strictly a check-the-boxtype of feature, and in no way connotes the quality or aesthetic of the garment.

I should also mention that I have quite a few pairs of JAB slacks that I purchased between 5 and 10 years ago with which I am quite pleased. The look good, are well cut and sewn, and made from pretty decent cloth. Hardly top notch, but good value for the money. What I find horrendous about JAB, is that the current product compared to even this recent and modest standard is grossly inferior, and nothing on which I would waste my money.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

bluesman said:


> With all due respect, it would take a lot more than an hour to impart even a rudimentary education to a group of sales trainees. Fabric and jacket construction are only 2 of a many similar topics, e.g. a suit's drop, the rise in a pair of pants, etc. It would be nice to see ongoing education programs that covered the spectrum every year or two - but such effort costs money, and the cost of goods sold is only a small part of the selling price.


Again this has nothing to do with the salesperson being able to know everything, or anything, for that matter about JOS Banks offerings.

It has everything to do with a sales associate being able to get an answer to a customer's question in a professional a courteous manor.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

The Rambler said:


> The chance of a JAB suit being fully canvased, of course, is zero.


Yet their signature gold line does in fact offer a half canvassed version and salespeople who do not know this should be happy to get this information to a JOS Banks customer.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

MRR said:


> I think that you are misunderstanding what question the manager heard.
> 
> When asked if the suit was fully canvassed, the manager thought the question was referring to the fabric used (and she knew the answer). She wasn't even aware that the question referred to construction. She answered the question correctly based on what she thought was being asked.


Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't misunderstand...I was just trying to keep the dialogue short.

Obviously, if there is a misunderstanding from the manager, it would take a couple minutes to sort that out before you could get to the various (but not limiting) options I described. The point I was trying to make is that Jos Bank with very little effort could create a pleasant and profitable sales experience that doesn't involve training everyone on the finer points of suit-making.


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> It has everything to do with a sales associate being able to get an answer to a customer's question in a professional a courteous manor.


I think I covered that further on in my post, to wit:



bluesman said:


> [Y]ou can't forget the lack of intellectual curiosity that permeates our culture. Most people don't really pursue knowledge these days - they settle for a superficial acquaintance with fact that serves them in their daily interactions, rarely trying to learn more than they think they need to know.


It would be hard for any sales associate to find the correct answer to questions about garment design, construction etc by asking fellow employees, virtually none of whom has any idea. The rare worker who understands the concept and value of customer delight will feel obligated to find out. But it would take more intellectual curiosity than the rest possess to actually research the topic and learn about it, despite the ease of Googling or Asking Andy About Clothes.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

*Subject one:* Whether one should expect the salesperson, or the manager, to know about suit construction at this level of detail.
Probably already sufficiently discussed. I think there are a perfectly good reasons why a retailer that's primarily competing on price typically doesn't have staff with this level of expertise, whether it's men's clothing or whatever.

*Subject two:* How the salesman and manager reacted, not knowing what the customer was talking about.
I wouldn't be that quick to judge. The salesman's general response (going to the manager) was pretty much textbook perfect, though I'm not sure I follow the "without a word" part (didn't he at least say, "I'll be back in a minute"?). The manager made an earnest attempt to understand the question, though she went awry, which is the fault of her knowledge (topic one), not her approach.

One additional observation: if you pay a little attention to other customers in stores (of any sort) you'll quickly learn that customers often - perhaps even typically - ask a lot of pretty stupid questions, based on some combination of a bad memories, fundamental misconceptions and a desire to appear clever. If the staff turned every query into a research project, in most cases (though not this one), they'd wind up wasting time and accomplishing nothing other than embarassing the customer in the end.

*Subject three:* The evilness of the OP.
I don't see anything in his little story that would lead me to brand him as arrogant, or even slightly impolite. As for posting it here:
- it was amusing, which is a good enough reason;
- it inspired a fairly long thread, so presumably people thought it interesting enough to talk about, which I suppose is the purpose of online forums.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Titus_A said:


> As a former (very brief) employee of Jos. A. Bank, I can assure that your experience is not unusual at all. The company's training provides no insight whatsoever into the construction of garments, their proper fit, or really anything that a person buying a suit needs or wants to know. Just "medium weight year-round," "double breasted is out of style," and don't carry merchandise out the back. I won't tell people never to buy anything there, but the one thing you should never do is take the advice of an employee.


Just to prove the maxim of "never say never," John Gilson, JAB's Peachtree Corners (GA) store manager, is a pro in every way.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

bluesman said:


> I think I covered that further on in my post, to wit:
> It would be hard for any sales associate to find the correct answer to questions about garment design, construction etc by asking fellow employees, virtually none of whom has any idea. The rare worker who understands the concept and value of customer delight will feel obligated to find out. But it would take more intellectual curiosity than the rest possess to actually research the topic and learn about it, despite the ease of Googling or Asking Andy About Clothes.


After a phone call to JOS banks, I'm to understand that an Asst. Manager, of which one is on duty at all times, can field such a question.

Making comments like you have: "virtually none of whom has any idea" is just plain incorrect. Start from an incorrect premise and you get an incorrect conclusion. (both of which you've done)


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## MRR (Nov 19, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Obviously, if there is a misunderstanding from the manager, it would take a couple minutes to sort that out before you could get to the various (but not limiting) options I described. The point I was trying to make is that Jos Bank with very little effort could create a pleasant and profitable sales experience that doesn't involve training everyone on the finer points of suit-making.


Absolutely correct. The JAB I used to go to didn't have the most educated staff, but they were friendly and went out of their way to help me. It took several friendly mis-measurements to see the tailor directly, but it DID happen.

I do think that the specific question the OP asked is one that wouldn't typically be asked by the kind of person who would come back to JAB after receiving any of your suggested (and expected) responses. I would think that most people actually concerned about canvas construction would look beyond JAB, and wouldn't come back to a store where the employees didn't even know what canvassing was.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

arkirshner said:


> Although it has been my experience that humiliating employees is principally a job perk exercised by those in management with a sadistic streak, no doubt there are some customers who behave that way. Still there is no reason to believe Mr. Trader behaved that way. All we have is that he went in the store, asked a question, received a stupid answer, and left.
> 
> It is not that uncommon for a customer to know more than the sales staff. I hope my electrician knows more than the salesman at Lowes. Sometimes a customer who does not make a living in the business knows more than a salesman. Men's clothing is business in which a knowledgeable customer can, without that much study, know more than a salesman.
> 
> ...


My grandfather was in the "fine watch" business a few years ago. It was not uncommon for "customers" to come into the store on occasion with no intention of buying anything, and yet the purpose of their visit was to challenge a salesperson on their technical knowledge of fine swiss timepieces. I once heard of a man that entered his local Apple store with the intention of challenging the "genius" at the "genius bar'. Incidentally, a salesperson once told how he didn't get a job selling watches at another jeweler as apparently the manager did not care about technical knowledge of watches and was just interested in "sales skill". One would think that there is a certain amount of knowledge required regarding a product in order to sell it.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Mike Petrik said:


> Just to prove the maxim of "never say never," John Gilson, JAB's Peachtree Corners (GA) store manager, is a pro in every way.


And since you mentioned it, Cole Locke at JOS Banks store number 389 in Chattanooga, TN. is quite knowledgeable about the features and benefits of JOS Banks clothing. As a result I will continue to go out of my way to do business with him. (I hope he's on commission)


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## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

127.72 MHz said:


> And since you mentioned it, Cole Locke at JOS Banks store number 389 in Chattanooga, TN. is quite knowledgeable about the features and benefits of JOS Banks clothing. As a result I will continue to go out of my way to do business with him. (I hope he's on commission)


He's technically on commission, but he may not be making any. They're on a bizarre scheme. My father had a women's store in a strip mall where there was a large Jos A Bank and became friends with one of the sales guys over many years. Perhaps 4 or 5 years ago, they switched from commission to a structure where earning commissions became nearly impossible, even for a guy in a high-traffic store in a good suburb of NY.

The sales guy was gone one day. My dad asked what happened to him and was told he retired. My dad ran into the sales guy when they were both at a gas station some months later and they got talking. Apparently, they took the experienced guys off a practically straight commission. He was an older guy, so he just quit and retired - working got him out of the house, but it wasn't worth it for, he estimated, a 60% pay cut. At one point, he said you could make decent money, but no more. They moved everyone onto something where you got an hourly rate and had to sell several thousand (like 6 or 8 - something high when an average sale is, at most, a couple hundred bucks) dollars of merchandise each week to get any commission at all and, even then, you only got a commission on the amount you sold beyond that. I don't remember the specifics. I apologize. It was staggering, though. Both my dad and I were shocked.

Perhaps this knowledge should have been shared earlier in the thread to explain why my expectations for their staff are particularly low - they're making like $10/hour. Competent staff for any american business costs more than that today. Of course, maybe this gentlemen is one of the superstars that can still make decent money; maybe he's not - I don't know. Certainly, most of their staff cannot fall into the 'superstar' category.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ That is truly a shame. I like to think that somewhere in the world things haven't gone the way that so many businesses have in the U.S.. It's just not enough anymore to have a business with sustainable profits and growth. Using the mantra" "We're here to satisfy our shareholders," they take what may have once been a living wage job and turn it into a job that no one would want long term.

Thanks for your explanation.


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## TheBarbaron (Oct 8, 2010)

I'll second the point about the commission structure at JAB. My manager used to run one of their stores, and on an idle afternoon, explained why I made more money at a lower volume MW store.

I don't remember the structure entirely, but you were paid an hourly amount, and earned a potential flat commission on sales: the catch was that you only got whichever was greater, and the flat commission was not that high a percentage. His contention was that unless you a had a base of loyal regulars who consistently spent a lot with you, most of the time you got your hourly rate. Moreover, any quarter for which you did not hit sales goals, the rate of commission on your next quarter would _decrease_ (i.e. from 5% to 4%).

I don't know how accurate his information was, especially since he stopped working for them six or eight years ago, but it was a sobering idea. I make a very paltry hourly rate, but with a tiered commission structure and a few bonuses, and there are no minimums; I'd hate to switch companies and have to sell a lot more product to make the same amount. (Our JAB is in a very high volume area, and our MW is much farther out; from what I gathered, I make a comparable living to their salespersons.)


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> After a phone call to JOS banks, I'm to understand that an Asst. Manager, of which one is on duty at all times, can field such a question.


Perhaps this is true where you are, but it's pure fantasy in Philadelphia and surrounding area. The level of knowledge among JAB employees at the 5 locations in our immediate area is abysmal, as is the tailoring. I'm also a bit suspicious of such an answer to a cold call - did you think whoever answered the phone would say, "I have no idea and I don't care"? Unless you actually asked a specific question that required some knowledge to answer, you learned nothing from your call except that whoever answered remembered the default response.



127.72 MHz said:


> Making comments like you have: "virtually none of whom has any idea" is just plain incorrect. Start from an incorrect premise and you get an incorrect conclusion. (both of which you've done)


I assume you're more fortunate than you are tactful, as you seem to have a good sales staff at your JAB locations. I've not been so fortunate locally or while traveling. In my experience (which I hope you won't denigrate without knowing what it encompasses), most sales people in most mass market stores are pretty close to clueless. If you have great people where you shop, be very nice to them because they deserve it.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ I am going to take your experiences at face value. (as fact) I'm going to assume that everyone who's mentioned that JOS banks employees are "Clueless" is speaking from the heart and that those are their true feelings.

That being said this entire issue has *very little* to do with what JOS banks employees know or more importunately don't know. *Every* employee of JOS Banks or *any* business *has* to be able to obtain an answer posed to them by a customer in a courteous and professional manor.

Those who have suggested in this thread that one should not expect an employee to obtain an answer to a question posed to them by a customer are plainly wrong.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

127.72 MHz said:


> ^^ I am going to take your experiences at face value. (as fact) I'm going to assume that everyone who's mentioned that JOS banks employees are "Clueless" is speaking from the heart and that those are their true feelings.
> 
> That being said this entire issue has *very little* to do with what JOS banks employees know or more importunately don't know. *Every* employee of JOS Banks or *any* business *has* to be able to obtain an answer posed to them by a customer in a courteous and professional manor.
> 
> Those who have suggested in this thread that one should not expect an employee to obtain an answer to a question posed to them by a customer are plainly wrong.


I agree with your basic premise.

To segue into another aspect, the OPs experience was with an employee who obtained an answer from the mgr, but it was a wrong answer.

The employee tried, but, in my mind, a wrong answer is worse than none at all.


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

127.72 MHz said:


> *Every* employee of JOS Banks or *any* business *has* to be able to obtain an answer posed to them by a customer in a courteous and professional manor.
> 
> Those who have suggested in this thread that one should not expect an employee to obtain an answer to a question posed to them by a customer are plainly wrong.


I disagree with this. There are limits to what an employee should be expected to know, and even what they should be expected to research to answer customer's questions.

I used to sell computers, and I got a lot of really dumb questions from customers trying to look smart. Most people were great to deal with, but asking what country the motherboard of a laptop was produced in was beyond what I considered reasonable.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ Once again,* nothing* to do with *knowing*. *Everything *to do with *finding an answer*, to a questiopn posed by a customer.

*Please make this distinction*. big difference between knowing, which I agree is not expected, or finding an answer if one does not know.


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> Those who have suggested in this thread that one should not expect an employee to obtain an answer to a question posed to them by a customer are plainly wrong.


I don't think any of us is saying that we don't expect an employee to obtain answers to our questions - we wouldn't ask if we didn't expect an answer. I, at least, am saying only that I have little expectation that most *will* do so for one reason or another. When we tell the story of Passover at the seder every year, we address 4 kinds of sons: the wise one, the wicked one, the simple one, and the one who is too young or challenged to ask. Sales people (and customers) also fall into these 4 categories. You appear to have found a sales force in the first category, but many of us have not been so fortunate (at least in mass market businesses like JAB).


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

I get the distinction. I just think there are some questions that are beyond reasonable, and an associate shouldn't be expected to find the answer for you. That said, the OP's question (fused v. canvassed) is totally reasonable.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

I think that part of being an clothing enthusiast is working with the strengths and weaknesses of a wide range of retailers--assessing retailers by what they have on the shelf, the other folks shopping, and their pricepoints and imagining what that retailer might do for us and not dwelling on what they can't do. The well dressed man has many items that are unique and very expensive, but he also has a lot of things he found for $15 on a sales table. Jos A Bank is a neat store that has a great selection of decent enough stuff at very reasonable prices, as well as a wide range of hard-to-find sizes. Their stuff looks good enough and wears well enough, but one is never paying "good money" at Jos A Bank, and there isn't anything special about it. I think everything about the store communicates that, and I think it is incumbent upon the clothing enthusiast to recognize this and to shop with an eye toward what the store can do and not what it can't.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

+1

From the enthusiast's point of view


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

CAG said:


> ....and an associate shouldn't be expected to find the answer for you.


Of course they should, that's their job. If it's a question about one of their products or merchandise, the SA should make every effort to find the answer even if it means calling the manager or calling you at home later.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ I've got to agree. This is the first rule of a customer/sales associate relationship. As someone who worked with customers, you *will* find the answer to a question posed to you or you will not work here.

Although you have taken his quote out of context I do believe he did mean it just as it's written; (under some circumstances) *"an associate shouldn't be expected to find the answer for you. *"

Assuming the individual posing the question is serious.


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## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

You guys are living in the past if you think this is a realistic possibility in corporate America today. Saying "every employee (at a 500+ store behemoth) should be competent enough to find you any answer you want" is like saying "everyone should have a college education" or "every american should own a home." It's a nice idea, but it's not realistic and it doesn't work in practice. Hell, I would love a competent sales staff at Jos A Bank, but we all know the good ones are the exception, not the rule. Everyone would love a competent staff there (and everywhere), but those guys walked out the door and anyone can see they're not walking back though it. 

One reason, among many of course, that Jos A Bank can make money hand over fist and still sell you inexpensive clothes is because they don't pay their staff (as I explained above). The days of competent sales staff in a chain store are long gone. I don't see what the problem with understanding and acknowledging this and amending your behavior accordingly.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

I agree.
These days I do not expect knowledge or attention from an employee of any retail store I visit, including higher priced stores. If I happen to find an informed, helpful store employee, I am pleasantly surprised.



PMRuby said:


> You guys are living in the past if you think this is a realistic possibility in corporate America today. Saying "every employee (at a 500+ store behemoth) should be competent enough to find you any answer you want" is like saying "everyone should have a college education" or "every american should own a home." It's a nice idea, but it's not realistic and it doesn't work in practice. Hell, I would love a competent sales staff at Jos A Bank, but we all know the good ones are the exception, not the rule. Everyone would love a competent staff there (and everywhere), but those guys walked out the door and anyone can see they're not walking back though it.
> 
> One reason, among many of course, that Jos A Bank can make money hand over fist and still sell you inexpensive clothes is because they don't pay their staff (as I explained above). The days of competent sales staff in a chain store are long gone. I don't see what the problem with understanding and acknowledging this and amending your behavior accordingly.


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

dks202 said:


> Of course they should, that's their job. If it's a question about one of their products or merchandise, the SA should make every effort to find the answer even if it means calling the manager or calling you at home later.


That's some fancy selective quoting. Of course a SA should work to answer questions. But the notion that every question deserves should be painstakingly researched by someone making $7.25/hr can only be uttered by someone who has never worked as an SA.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ CAG, you've added additional requirements to the question at hand which makes the basic premise sound unreasonable. *No one* said "painstakingly researched by someone making $7.25/h." *No one except you.*

Ask someone at a mens clothing store about the construction of a particular garment they sell and a reasonable response might be; "I'm sorry sir but I don't know the answer to that but I'll find out." This is not unreasonable for someone making $7.25 an hour or someone making 15 cents an hour.

How in the world can you know that I, or someone else who agrees with the point several of us have made, has not worked as a sales associate? Saying something like that is absurd.

Just pause for a moment and take your opinion to where the rubber hits the road. A customer asks how a given garment is constructed to a minimum wage sales associate: "Ah I don't know how it's constructed" (end of response) or perhaps "I don't know how it's constructed and I don't care," or "I don't know how it's constructed and I only make $7.25 an hour so I'm not going to take this any further."

All of these responses are clearly unacceptable in any venue. This is not an antiquated concept and it's not unreasonable.


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

I specifically said the OP's question was reasonable. All I've said is that there are questions which are not reasonable, and for those unreasonable questions, an answer should not be expected.


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## Sensor (Jan 3, 2012)

*Its true*

I work at JAB. I know more than most about mens fashion and clothing, and took the position pt reluctantly, and I had never been in a JAB store until I walked in the first day.
1. There is no training, at all.
2. JAB sells price point and quantity.
3. Customer service is non existent.
Let me quantify that #3. Mens suits are an investment in time and money, even on the cheap end. You cannot properly help a customer when there are throngs of people in the store after 2 free shirts and ties. Or looking to return an item so they can re-buy at the cheaper sale price. To boot, JABs return and exchange process is convoluted, painful and not oriented around the customers experience.

The management at JAB (corporate) are poorly dressed from what I have seen and are interested in the quantity of merchandise you display and sell.

The pay structure:, they dont want employees to stay. To reach a tiny 5% commission rate you must sell into the thousands of dollars in merchandise against your $8/hr rate. You tell me how the staff is supposed to exist, much less live on that. The management of individual stores (in my area) barely make enough to take the bus to work and keep a low cost roof over there heads. Very underpaid management and staff.

JAB doesn't retain your size info for as siting your follow up purchases, again its their business model to sell cheap, provide little on the CS side and see ya the next sale.

I personally can't wear JAB merchandise, its way oversized. But from what I have seen and experienced, the only suits they sell worth their salt (0n sale mind you) are the Joseph line, the Signature Gold,,,, and maybe the Platinum (never seen one).

The original post is spot on in their assessment of most staff members. Just remember, its not their fault. How much can a person who's not paid enough to live be expected to know after standing on their feet, dressed to the hilt all day. They are not Professionals in the industry, just retail employees.


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## TSWalker (Nov 2, 2011)

Sensor, thank you very much for your post. As someone who worked in retail for many years, I am depressed (but not surprised) by your candid comments. As a regular JAB customer, I had hoped you were treated better.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Yes thanks from me also. The lady who was very helpful in the store, when I called back about returning/exchanging an item, tried to "sales pressure" me by saying, "well, you liked it when you tried it on in the store, didn't you?". So I had to remind her that I had told her to just send all four to me and I'd decide later which to keep or return. Also she insisted they had never made a merlot cashmere blazer while I was looking right at it online. Finally after I gave her the item # she had to relent on that one. 

It was such a change from how she had acted in the store, I was a bit surprised. I guess your post explains it. I wonder how the store in La Jolla makes out? (That is a very expensive/exclusive part of town.)

Again, thanks for posting, I hope you'll post more often. You may have seen the various discussions here about JAB, and I think you can offer some insight.

For example, when I called the main toll-free number about exchanging/availability, the lady was actually very pleasant and took the time to explain to me the quality level of the various lines of suits. I couldn't make out the difference between all the lines.

Apparently it goes like this, in order of quality:
1. Signature Platinum -- Super 150s
2. Signature Gold Super -- 120s
3. Signature -- 110s
4,5,6. Traveler, Executive, JAB -- 110s

Plus I think I read somewhere that above a certain level they are half-canvassed (presumably also fused).

I'm on an ebay kick and have no pressing need for a suit. I may go with MTM but am just not shopping JAB currently.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

I think JAB should get a pass from AAAC readers. Sales practices and customer service aside, it provides baseline professional clothing at a reasonable value (assuming perpetual "sale" prices). If the average American male began dressing exclusively in JAB clothes, the sartorial landscape would improve considerably. At least JAB sells suits and ties as normative clothing for grown up males.

If you like Brioni and Edward Green, or even Brooks Brothers, it's quite simple to avoid JAB. Although there may be 3 stores in your neighborhood and endless commercials on your favorite radio station...


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I think that's a reasonable point from a fellow San Diegan, keeping in mind that in this city, things are quite a bit less formal than in other places.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

jeffdeist said:


> I think JAB should get a pass from AAAC readers. Sales practices and customer service aside, it provides baseline professional clothing at a reasonable value (assuming perpetual "sale" prices). If the average American male began dressing exclusively in JAB clothes, the sartorial landscape would improve considerably. At least JAB sells suits and ties as normative clothing for grown up males.
> 
> If you like Brioni and Edward Green, or even Brooks Brothers, it's quite simple to avoid JAB. Although there may be 3 stores in your neighborhood and endless commercials on your favorite radio station...


I agree. The vast majority of American men would improve their dress considerably if they bought their clothes at JAB. The chains' business model is not designed for men who enjoy clothes and take the time to be knowledgable about them. Most men have little interest in clothing, have no desire to spend a lot of money on clothes, and hate to shop. JAB is a better option for these men than either MWH or most department stores in my view. That said, I do think just a little training would go a long way to help the staff be better and more productive salesmen.


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## RobertAllen (Nov 11, 2008)

I bought a camel hair jacket from JAB a couple of years ago. I only wear a camel hair jacket 4-5x per year, so it serves its purpose.
As far as the buy 1, get 20 free or there various other "specials", I only participate to the extent of buying shoe trees. I've got a half-dozen of them and only "paid" for 2.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

In that context, clothes from Stafford or Dockers are worthwhile purchases. I suppose JAB is the right choice in certain circumstances, but it's an entry-level menswear brand; deserving of respect, but as a lower rung on a ladder. They aren't worthy of being _embraced_.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

*My Impressions on Visiting Joseph A. Bank*

JAB is a volume clothing business with massive discounts and "sales come-ons." E.g., I was looking for a raincoat for my father, and the raincoats were 70% off. On another occasion I was looking for a sweater for my father, and the sweaters were "buy one, get the second one for free." Every night I see televsions ads promising "buy one, get the second or even third free."

The rampant discounting means that the ticket price is a pure fiction. Even when JAB sells at 50-70% off, it is making good money considering that it pays next to nothing for its Chinese made clothing.

With this type of sales culture there is no way that it can be a quality retailer.

Essentially, JAB is a mid-level clothier. Its customer is not interested in quality but price. The old-style mid-level clothier would have career salesmen who knew the product because the customer demanded such knowledge. I recall going in the 1960's and 1970's to my father's clothiers. These were mid-level stores, but the salesmen made a point that the suits were "number 6" level tailoring, the highest level of tailoring.

Today, the JAB customer is not looking for "number 6 tailoring." He is looking for the "buy one, get the second free." Therefore, the typical salesman or manager could not tell you whether the suits are fused or canvassed.

On my visits I have been served with by the same young salegirl who is very nice. However, it would be unrealistic for me to expect her to have the same knowledge as a middle-aged suit salesman at Barneys.

Incidentally, lack of information and misinfomation is not strictly the province of the lower priced clothiers. I visited the Wall Street branch of Pink's. The salesgirl and manager insisted that "120's cotton" means 120 threads per inch. (The number actually refers to the fineness of the yard and not "threads per inch.) The manager told me that she was told this in her formal "training" at the company.


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## catside (Oct 7, 2010)

Look, I only bought two merino turtlenecks from JAB (ever) two years ago which did not last (same with BB outlet merino experience). But... I have been to the JAB store more than few times to look around and try stuff and I have always been treated with respect, staff was not idiotic, knew their clothes, price-quality ratio etc. I disagree with what is said about customer service for JAB staff in my neck of the woods.


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## neild76 (Dec 1, 2011)

I've been in the newer JAB in downtown Minneapolis and the workers there seem pretty knowledgeable. A few of them are workers from the BB in the Mall of America that closed and they seem to know suits. When first starting out in my career I purchase an Executive suit and it was not very nice, but keep in mind I paid very little for it. I recently picked up a non-iron shirt and it seems to be on par with BB's non-iron shirts. I've got my eye on a couple of signature/signature gold suits that I might pick up if I can time a sale right. The fabric seems nice enough and I like the way they fit. I've been in the BB here and tried on different suits and yes they feel nicer, but I'm just not crazy about the way they fit. And they are quite a bit more expensive. I've spotted some good deals at the Nordstrom Rack and will supplement my closet as I see fit. Also, the selection at JAB just kills BB, which always seems pretty thin on suit stock. As some have alluded to, wearing a properly fitting, conservatie JAB suit has to be preferable to wearing khakis and a dress shirt to the office.


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## jsbrugg (Nov 16, 2011)

It sounds to me like the sales staff did what they should do to provide good customer service, but the manager just misunderstood the question asked by the OP. Whether the manager _should_ have understood the question is a different story. Given the many comments I've read about JAB on this forum, I don't think much of their clientele would be asking this type of question and the ones who care about fusing are also more likely to know which styles are fused. I probably wouldn't expect someone in the store to know the answer to the question, but it would be a good probing question to see how much a salesperson knows about their product before taking their advice.

I do have a somewhat amusing story about a knowledgeable salesperson. At the shoe department of my local Nordstrom, I was looking at some AEs and the clerk was telling me that the shoes were made in the USA and in-state up in north Washington. I didn't know any better at the time, so I assumed she meant Seattle but I had a little chuckle when I later discovered that they are made in Port Washington, Wisconsin.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

neild76 said:


> I've been in the newer JAB in downtown Minneapolis and the workers there seem pretty knowledgeable. * * *


The high-end stores have no monopoly on knowledgeable salemen, but you would tend to find them more often in the high-end and traditional stores. One reason is that they can earn more.

As a general proposition, service and knowledge has decreased at the sales level. This has occurred accross the board, but it is most noticeable in the mid- to lower-priced stores which do not foster a culture that encourages a salesman to learn about the product.

These stores, such as JAB, are focused on moving "units."


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## sjtm (Dec 17, 2011)

Mike Petrik said:


> I agree. The vast majority of American men would improve their dress considerably if they bought their clothes at JAB. The chains' business model is not designed for men who enjoy clothes and take the time to be knowledgable about them. Most men have little interest in clothing, have no desire to spend a lot of money on clothes, and hate to shop. JAB is a better option for these men than either MWH or most department stores in my view. That said, I do think just a little training would go a long way to help the staff be better and more productive salesmen.


I am a subset of the above - I have a growing interest in my appearance and clothing ( losing a lot of weight will do that to you), little desire to devote a significant outlay to my wardrobe ( I have a race car that perpetually needs something replaced and am staring at a $750K in college tuition bills over the next 8 years), and I HATE to shop in stores ( unless it is the tool department at Sears - once again for the race car).

I therefore celebrate JAB. But I depend on what I learn on this board to be an informed shopper, and it has helped tremendously, given the wealth of knowledge (and opinions) available.

I also feel a need to stand up for the salespeople I have encountered at JAB. While generally less informed than I (and that is a very low bar), virtually every one has been exceptionally courteous and have gone to great ends to be helpful. this is almost non-existent behavior in almost every other retail environment I get dragged to by my wie and daughter. It is actually quite refreshing.

Last summer, I purchased a very nice leather jacket at JAB and put it away for the fall. When I pulled it out, i noticed that the cuff snaps were both broken. I took it back, and the salesperson not only made no fuss about the passage of time, but immediately offered a replacement jacket. Since the color and texture of the one I had was particularly nice, I said I prefer they repair it. They pointed out that it would require disassembling the cuff, and their tailor did not have the appropriate sewing machine. Nonethless the saleman said to leave it and he would get it fixed. He called a week later to say he could not find a single store that could do the repair, so he took it to his father, a skilled tailor, and had him do it. The repair was perfect. Who could ask for better customer service?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't sell clothing, but thank goodness my store educates the staff about our products...


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

sjtm said:


> I am a subset of the above - I have a growing interest in my appearance and clothing ( losing a lot of weight will do that to you), little desire to devote a significant outlay to my wardrobe ( I have a race car that perpetually needs something replaced and am staring at a $750K in college tuition bills over the next 8 years)


Who would ever have thought that children could be more expensive than Ferraris.


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## sjtm (Dec 17, 2011)

Jeremy Clarckson once said “I’d like to consider Ferrari as a scaled down version of God.” Alas,for track purposes, I am relegated to the lowly but lovely handling M3.


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

I just want to add to the comments that the staff at my local JAB has always been helpful. I have seen some turnover in the past few years I have frequented the establishment, but the manager is still the same, as are several of the staff. The first few times I stopped in you could tell they were trying to push a sale, but I guess they now recognize me and know if I want help I'll ask them for it. They seem relatively knowledgeable, but I do try to stop in already knowing what I'm looking for. I kind of use JAB as an experiment. I'll purchase one or two of an item there to see if it fits my style (which is quite lacking), and if I want to move up I'll purchase the next one at BB or even here in the exchange. If it isn't something I like I'm not out a lot of money and at least got to try wearing it.

Andy B.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

Sensor's post describing employee life at JAB is pretty depressing. I worked in retail years ago, selling suits at the now defunct Bullock's. It was reasonably well paying for an entry level job, and holiday commissions amounted to an extra thousand bucks or so if I remember correctly. Department managers made a reasonable living, and the overall store manager was presumed to make six figures. Most employees were young and single, and there was quite of bit of drinking and dating going on. A far cry from the scene Sensor describes.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

sjtm said:


> Last summer, I purchased a very nice leather jacket at JAB and put it away for the fall. When I pulled it out, i noticed that the cuff snaps were both broken. I took it back, and the salesperson not only made no fuss about the passage of time, but immediately offered a replacement jacket. Since the color and texture of the one I had was particularly nice, I said I prefer they repair it. They pointed out that it would require disassembling the cuff, and their tailor did not have the appropriate sewing machine. Nonethless the saleman said to leave it and he would get it fixed. He called a week later to say he could not find a single store that could do the repair, so he took it to his father, a skilled tailor, and had him do it. The repair was perfect. Who could ask for better customer service?


I trust you weren't getting paid to write that. While I have no doubt it happened as you described, I am confident in saying that would not occur at most stores today; even a Brooks Brothers.


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## sjtm (Dec 17, 2011)

No one has yet paid me for my testimony, although it was earned by JAB in this instance. I concur that any level of service is in rare supply these days - all the more reason to shine a light on it when it happens. BTW, this occurred at the Framingham MA store. I have since visited another local store, and found the salesperson equally uninformed about his product, but exhibiting little patience or courtesy. He corrected me twice rather snarkily (is that a word?) as to whether I had asked him for assistance (I had). I guess he finds this such an unusual request, he was unprepared.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

son of brummell said:


> JAB is a volume clothing business with massive discounts and "sales come-ons." * * *
> 
> On my visits I have been served with by the same young salegirl who is very nice. However, it would be unrealistic for me to expect her to have the same knowledge as a middle-aged suit salesman at Barneys.
> 
> * * *


As a follow-up, I made a quick visit last Friday to buy a sweater for my elderly father.

The sweater was 60% off. ($125 gross; net price $50) The sweater was 80% shetland wool and 20% nylon. Made in China. It was not worth $125 at full retail, but a $50-65 price range seems fair. It is most likely that very few to none sweaters are sold at the retail ticket price.

In comparison, a 100% shetland sweater at Brooks would go for about twice the price on sale. Incidentally, Brooks did not offer a comparable sweater.

The same salesgal was nice and efficient.

My father was pleased with the sweater and the low price.

VERDICT: JAB offers good clothes for those at the mid-income level who do not want to spend alot and do not expect that their clothes will be heirlooms. It is a mid-level retailer. Do not expect the level of quality, service, and price that you would receive at Brooks Brothers or a high-level store. Also, do not expect the JAB clothes to have great longevity.


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## Luckycharmboi2 (May 30, 2009)

Ok, i have to chime in here. i buy some items at JAB. Their signature merino wool sweaters costing about $40 (per the various promotions) are actually great for bein chinese made. Wear well, dont pill as many more expensive sweaters do. Who could complain? I also buy shoe trees (good quality cedar and good deals on them), and some basic wool trousers which work just fine (especially if you dont intend to wear them often and dont want to pay $150+ for them). JAB fills a market, which is not the market most of our members fall into--dandies who like clothes.

As for the employees, they dont always know a lot about construction But i am on a first name basis with several of the salespoeple at my local store, and they are nice people. Why make them feel bad because they are trying to make a living there? In fact, a few weeks ago i was in there looking at some things and one of the salespeople i know was trying to talk me into a suit (something i typically wont buy at JAB). I tried to remain non-committal but polite. My wife turns to him and says, "he will buy some things here, but he usually buys his suits at brooks brothers." The guy gave up. I really felt bad for him. Maybe i need not have, but i did. He has helped me in the past, isnt pushy tries to suggest things i might like. What good did telling him i willever buy a suit there do, other than to deflate him? 

David.


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

sjtm said:


> Jeremy Clarckson once said "I'd like to consider Ferrari as a scaled down version of God." Alas,for track purposes, I am relegated to the lowly but lovely handling M3.


:smile: My personal goal in life is to reach a point where I can smash a Ferrari into a tire wall...and not care. I'm not there yet!


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

Luckycharmboi2 said:


> I tried to remain non-committal but polite. My wife turns to him and says, "he will buy some things here, but he usually buys his suits at brooks brothers." The guy gave up. I really felt bad for him. Maybe i need not have, but i did. He has helped me in the past, isnt pushy tries to suggest things i might like. What good did telling him i willever buy a suit there do, other than to deflate him?


Your "non-committal" approach was the wrong one. Your wife's was the right one. A salesperson's time has value. It is better that he/she know if the customer has insurmountable objections, so that time and effort is not wasted chasing a perceived opportunity that doesn't actually exist.


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