# The Georgetown Crowd



## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

The Georgetown Crowd was a coterie of like minded spies, diplomats and journalists who socialized together in their NW Washington D.C. neighborhood during the Eisenhower administration and into Camelot. They were mostly left-of-center, mostly Ivy league educated, and mostly veterans of the OSS during World War II. They didn't like isolationists and they hated Communists, but they liked tennis and loved cocktails. Initially, they gathered around the Q Street house of OSS paterfamilias and the original Director of Plans (DP) at the CIA, Frank Wisner


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Spies Pt. I*

Some of the OSS veterans in the group included his replacement (after his post Hungarian uprising nervous breakdown) as DP, Richard Bissell (himself, forced to resign post Bay of Pigs Fiasco). 








and Tracy Barnes (who's success as the lead field agent in the overthrow of the Arbenz government in Guatemala in 1954, lead him to be chosen as the first Domestic Operations Director[!])


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Spies Pt. II*

One of Wisner's proteges and another key member of the crowd, Cord Meyer Jr. was recruited to head Operation Mockingbird, the plan to influence foreign and domestic media in a way favorable to the Agency. Here is Meyer in 1948 during a bout of post-war idealism in which he pursued one world government (or, as some suspect, infiltrating left wing front organizations for Wisner). 















Here is Meyer recruiting a rather dubious European looking gentleman


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Spies Pt. III*

Also included in this elite but informal grouping was Desmond Fitzgerald, who headed up the Agency's attempts on Fidel Castro's life and also was DP in the early Vietnam era








and Tom Braden, who spent the early 1950's distributing cash to anti-communist politicians, union leaders, and reporters in Europe and elsewhere. Here he is in 1967 








[He later became a media figure as the original left co-host of Crossfire. Also his memoirs of family life, "Eight is Enough" became the basis for an ABC family series in the 1970s]


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Journalists Pt. I.*

A key liaison with the world of journalism was Bill Donovan's wartime assistant and Washington Post publisher Philip Graham








In 1954, on the far right, here is a better view of the suit. 








With his wife, Post heiress Katherine Mayer Graham, and the rest of the family


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Journalists Pt. II*

At the Post, Graham met Ben Bradlee and recommended him for a job as embassy press attache in Paris where he married Cord Meyer's sister-in-law, before returning to Newsweek. In 1956








and in 1971, again with Katherine Graham


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Journalists Pt. III*

Other neighborhood chums included the Alsops, here is Joseph in 1947








And James "Scotty" Reston of the NYTimes. In 1956








1957








and 1965


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Diplomats Pt. I*

Many of the old OSS gang also joined the diplomatic corps and were able to stop by when they were in town including David Bruce in 1958








and 1961








along with Charles "Chip" Bohlen in 1955








And in 1962 along with another (married) chum who began an affair with Cord Meyer's wife in 1963


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Diplomats, Pt. III*

Another state department type OSS veteran in the set was the economist Walt Whitman Rostow. Caption for this says (1965) but probably earlier








Here with Chester Bowles in 1961







and in 1967


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*The Diplomats Pt. III*

Last but not least, Paul Nitze ca. 1950
















and on far left, 1949


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

Wonderful photos. A golden age for many. Thank you.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Great pics, AP. OSS was known as "Oh, so social", because many members were Ivy League grads who traveled in the same social circles. Cord Meyer's wife Mary, who was a mistress of JFK, was murdered mysteriously while walking on the Georgetown Canal path. Alsop was a key member of the Georgetown social circle, a closet homosexual who married Susan Mary Jay. Desmond Fitzgerald's daughter is the author Frances Fitzgerald.


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## TDI GUY (Oct 26, 2008)

AldenPyle said:


> One of Wisner's proteges and another key member of the crowd, Cord Meyer Jr. was recruited to head Operation Mockingbird, the plan to influence foreign and domestic media in a way favorable to the Agency. Here is Meyer in 1948 during a bout of post-war idealism in which he pursued one world government (or, as some suspect, infiltrating left wing front organizations for Wisner).


His politics aside, I really like the proportions of this jacket, the shoulders in particular.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

He was not quite a member of the Georgetown Set, but can any set of pics like this be complete without James Jesus Angleton?

A couple of other notes:

Can you tell by looking closely at Cord Meyer which one of his eyes was glass? He was a combat Marine in WWII, and lost an eye on Guam.

His wife was Mary Pinchot Meyer (I think she was the mistress who smoked J w/ JFK in the WH, and whose underwear Jackie once found in a pillowcase). Her life and 1964 murder form the basis for the recent Gretchen Mol film, _An American Affair_, which even _the New York Times _finds "deeply silly." (I'm gonna see it anyway, b/c I'm interested in the period, and Gretchen Mol is just plain hot.)

Anyone interested in the early Cold War period who would enjoy seeing a recent TV treatment with some good representations of various kinds of tradwear (Brit and American) might enjoy not only the US miniseries _The Company, _but also the BBC miniseries _The Cambridge Spies:_
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346223/

A couple of scenes were actually shot in Jermyn Street, outside Turnbull & Asser, and two scenes take place inside the shop. The one detail that truly made we wince was when characters called Angleton "James Jee-zuss Angleton." Angleton's mother was Mexican, and his middle name was pronounced Spanish-style as "Hay-soose." Also, the actress who played Donald MacLean's American wife Melinda was pretty obviously a Brit affecting an American accent, and not very well at that, which sort of ruined her scenes for me.


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

Excellent, excellent thread! For a great history of the early years of the CIA, I highly recommend the book The Very Best Men, by Evan Thomas. I'm sure that most of you posting on this thread already are familiar with it. There are some great stories about Tracy Barnes -- who probably is my personal favorite from this group. Bissell really had the New England patrician trad look nailed down. Allen Dulles also is a personal favorite.


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## Ralph Kinney Bennett (Dec 24, 2008)

Wonderful pictures, they bring back many memories of my years In Washington, especially the shots of Jim Angleton. I remember that Homburg, and particularly that three piece suit (top right). He always dressed with a _very_ slight _outre_ take on the traditional -- clearly classic but uniquely Jim. I fondly recall lunches and discussions of poetry and cabins in the Wisconsin woods and antique Cadillacs... and other things. He was incredibly smart, ineffably mysterious, an agile and resourceful player in "The Game," and, I believe, a great and good man. (Incidentally, the close-up of Chip Bohlen "in 1955" was taken a few years later. That's a 1960 Cadillac Series 75 limousine parked right behind him.)


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Those are some great pics. Thanks for posting AP.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

rsmeyer said:


> Great pics, AP. OSS was known as "Oh, so social", because many members were Ivy League grads who traveled in the same social circles. Cord Meyer's wife Mary, who was a mistress of JFK, was murdered mysteriously while walking on the Georgetown Canal path. Alsop was a key member of the Georgetown social circle, a closet homosexual who married Susan Mary Jay. Desmond Fitzgerald's daughter is the author Frances Fitzgerald.





PJC in NoVa said:


> He was not quite a member of the Georgetown Set, but can any set of pics like this be complete without James Jesus Angleton?
> 
> A couple of other notes:
> 
> ...





Ralph Kinney Bennett said:


> Wonderful pictures, they bring back many memories of my years In Washington, especially the shots of Jim Angleton. I remember that Homburg, and particularly that three piece suit (top right). He always dressed with a _very_ slight _outre_ take on the traditional -- clearly classic but uniquely Jim. I fondly recall lunches and discussions of poetry and cabins in the Wisconsin woods and antique Cadillacs... and other things. He was incredibly smart, ineffably mysterious, an agile and resourceful player in "The Game," and, I believe, a great and good man. (Incidentally, the close-up of Chip Bohlen "in 1955" was taken a few years later. That's a 1960 Cadillac Series 75 limousine parked right behind him.)


Angleton, I think was actually pretty hooked into this group. When Mary Pinchot Meyer was murdered, Ben Bradlee and his wife (Mary Meyer's sister) went to her house to find her diary. When they arrived, according to Bradlee, they were surprised to find Angleton there doing the same thing (his wife was also a friend of Ms. Meyer). Angleton, who wound up with diary, apparently confirmed (in the 1970s) that the diary did contain accounts of her and JFK using illegal drugs together.

RKB is correct and extremely observant. My mistake, that is actually 1961. Here is Bohlen at the Geneva Conference in 1955 (with someone name Llewellyn Thompson).


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

TDI GUY said:


> His politics aside, I really like the proportions of this jacket, the shoulders in particular.


Lapels are little wide for me. I kind of like Philip Graham's suit.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

You're right AP--Angleton's wife was apparently a close friend of Mary Meyer's as well.

One thing about the pics that caught my eye was in the 1971 photo of Ben Bradlee with Kay Graham in post # 6 above. Bradlee looks as if he's wearing one of the wider ties that was coming into fashion then with a suit, shirt, and tie clip that he'd probably had for a while. The shirt collar and the tie clip look too small for that rather broad tie, and so do the lapels of his 3-roll-2 suit jacket. But of course that makes sense: Most men are not going to chuck their whole wardrobe because something like the "in" tie width has changed due to a fashion trend. So Bradlee is probably wearing a newish tie with a shirt and suit he'd had for a while.


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## Ralph Kinney Bennett (Dec 24, 2008)

*"Tommy" Thompson*

Thanks, Alden Pyle, for another intriguing photograph. "Tommy" Thompson, the fellow with the cigarette in his mouth listening to Bohlen was a key diplomat during the Cold War. He had first been posted to Moscow during World War II and was U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet Union at the end of the Eisenhower Administration and continued in the post for Kennedy. A man of amazing knowledge and presence. He knew Khrushchev well and his advice to Kennedy during the Cuban missile crisis was informed and vital. He really typified the old classic State Department type. Unfortunately, he died of cancer, I think, in the early 70s. The other guy in the middle, with the horn rim glasses looks very familiar but I can't conjure up the name yet. I love the studied _insoucience_ of Tommys ciggy and that bottom button buttoned.

While we're at it, I side with TDI guy on Cord Meyer's suit. Love it, lapels and all and particularly that heavy cloth; weighed in tons, not ounces. As to Ben Bradlee and his ties, although he was somewhat "to the manner born" he often went a little crazy on ties and shirts in the sorry '70s when a lot of people dipped a toe into the waffle-knit world. Yikes!


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

AP,
Thank you for your labor of love!


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Ralph Kinney Bennett said:


> As to Ben Bradlee and his ties, although he was somewhat "to the manner born" he often went a little crazy on ties and shirts in the sorry '70s when a lot of people dipped a toe into the waffle-knit world. Yikes!


Yes, his full name is Benjamin Crowninshield Bradlee, and he comes from an old Boston family; had an ancestor in the Revolution and all that. I used to see him once in a while at the prescription counter of the old Rite-Aid at 15th and L, near the Post building. A very distinguished-looking man, all in all.

He's best known sartorially for his frequent wearing of contrast-collar striped shirts from Turnbull & Asser (Sally Quinn's doing, perhaps?); for a while shirts of this type were a sort of fad among younger male Posties. Here are a few pics:

Another (to my mind) interesting factoid about Bradlee: _Post_ movie critic and gun expert Stephen Hunter, in his gripping book _American Gunfight, _ which tells the story of the November 1st, 1950, Blair House shootout between White House Police officers and Secret Service agents on one side and two Puerto Rican terrorists bent on murdering President Truman on the other, reveals that Bradlee was the first newsman on the scene, purely by happenstance.

Then a junior _Post_ reporter, Bradlee was riding the streetcar east along Pennsylvania Avenue on his way from his home in Georgetown to his shift at the paper, when the car was stopped by a commotion just west of the White House/Old EOB (State, War & Navy) complex (one of the wounded officers was lying in the middle of the Avenue, shot through both legs). Bradlee jumped off to see what was going on, and walked right into the immediate aftermath of the shooting, which had taken less than 40 seconds but had left one man dead, another (who had killed the first) mortally wounded, and three others wounded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_assassination_attempt

Back to tradwear: In that 1965 pic of W.W. Rostow wearing that rumpled light-colored suit, is that a J. Press pocket-flap oxford b.d. shirt he's wearing? Sure looks like it to me.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Back to tradwear: In that 1965 pic of W.W. Rostow wearing that rumpled light-colored suit, is that a J. Press pocket-flap oxford b.d. shirt he's wearing? Sure looks like it to me.


Sharp eyes. He went to Yale, so maybe.


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## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

I was going to put on All The Presidents Men the other day w/ Jason Robards as Bradlee. Will have to see how he's dressed in the film now that I've had my trad eye honed a bit by this forum. Bernstein especially (Hoffmann) has ties about a foot wide.


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## oldschoolprep (Jun 21, 2007)

CMDC said:


> I was going to put on All The Presidents Men the other day w/ Jason Robards as Bradlee. Will have to see how he's dressed in the film now that I've had my trad eye honed a bit by this forum. Bernstein especially (Hoffmann) has ties about a foot wide.


No discussion of the Georgetown Crowd would be complete without recoginition of late Liberal Republican Senator John Sherman Cooper of Kentucky (show here with former Secretary of State Dean Acheson.)


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Here are some nice pictures of Richard Helms at the swearing in ceremony for CIA director (former Admiral) William Raborn.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

That tie is SO thin, it may as well be a bolo!!


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## swb120 (Aug 9, 2005)

This is one of the most interesting threads I have ever read on AAAC. Thank you!


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

For those with an interest in this general topic, here are two recently published books you'll want to lay hands on:
https://www.amazon.com/Irregulars-R...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256314440&sr=1-1

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/books/review/Heilbrunn-t.html?_r=1

and:

https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-50...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256314777&sr=1-1

The latter in particular ought to be made into a film; it's got action, intrigue, combat, espionage, romance, and danger aplenty, and is generally one of those true stories with a ton of "stranger than fiction" elements.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

Great stuff - this town must have been something in the 1950s. Wish I had been here for this set, Ed Williams, Duke Ziebert's etc.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

great thread....well done ....this reminds me of the movie The Good Shepherd that dealt with the creation of the CIA....the main character possibly lived in Georgetown as well


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## Dr. NS (Aug 25, 2009)

Gtown sure looks different today!


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## smallwonder (Jun 29, 2009)

Bermuda said:


> great thread....well done ....this reminds me of the movie The Good Shepherd that dealt with the creation of the CIA....the main character possibly lived in Georgetown as well


I concur with this assessment


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

As I recall that (IMO not very good) film, the Matt Damon character seemed to live in one of the tonier close-in DC suburbs, or perhaps that part of Upper Northwest (northern Ward 3) that has a lot of expensive, detached homes with yards and trees, etc.--it's an area that looks and feels pretty suburban.

Damon's character was very loosely based on James Jesus Angleton, with Robert DeNiro playing a character modeled on General William "Wild Bill" Donovan, founder of the OSS.

The filming locations don't seem to have actually included any places in the real DC suburbs, however:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343737/locations

It appears that they used the Greater NYC area instead (Tarrytown, Manhasset).


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## Benson (Aug 28, 2009)

I was under the impression that Damon's character in a Good Shepard was based on Allen Dulles, however loosely. And while I agree that the film is not particularly good, I think it does manage to get a few things right, perhaps most importantly that many in this "Georgetown set" were ineffective intelligence agents. 

For all who are interested in history of the CIA, I found Legacy of Ashes to be a worthwhile read.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Benson said:


> I was under the impression that Damon's character in a Good Shepard was based on Allen Dulles, however loosely. And while I agree that the film is not particularly good, I think it does manage to get a few things right, perhaps most importantly that many in this "Georgetown set" were ineffective intelligence agents.
> 
> For all who are interested in history of the CIA, I found Legacy of Ashes to be a worthwhile read.


Damon's character is a literature student and poet at Yale in the 1930s; Allen W. Dulles went to Princeton and was born in 1893, making him a generation older than the Damon character (Angleton was born in 1917 and wrote poetry at Yale, which he attended from 1937 to 1941). According to wikipedia (as we know, the _fons et origo_ of all human knowledge) William Hurt's character is modeled on AWD.

I'm about to start Weiner's book.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

For those interested in this period and the men who started the CIA you should read:

Gentlmen Spy by Peter Grosse which is a Bioography of A. Dulles
Wild Bill by Anthony Cave Brown - Biography of Wild Bill Donovan
There are tons of others but Anthony Cave Brown is the master.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Benson said:


> I was under the impression that Damon's character in a Good Shepard was based on Allen Dulles, however loosely. And while I agree that the film is not particularly good, I think it does manage to get a few things right, perhaps most importantly that many in this "Georgetown set" were ineffective intelligence agents.
> 
> For all who are interested in history of the CIA, I found Legacy of Ashes to be a worthwhile read.


The movie is great for clothing and quite awful for history. I could not make it through the movie twice---even with Angelina Jolie. It gets nothing right.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*William P. Bundy*

[Thanks for the interest.]
Brother of McGeorge, Son-in-law of Dean Acheson, veteran CIA analyst, Deputy to and Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, MIT and Princeton professor.


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## PersianMonarchs (Dec 7, 2005)

I just wanted to add my thanks to those of the many others who have found this thread to be so interesting!


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Another character from this era, who came to CIA via the OSS and then a postwar military career, was USAF Gen. Edward Lansdale, who ran "Operation Mongoose" (the Kennedy brothers' "get Castro" project). According to Michael Dobbs's book on the Cuban Missile Crisis, _One Minute to Midnight, _Lansdale was nominally with DoD, ran "Mongoose" as a CIA program, and reported personally to Bobby Kennedy, who held high-level "Mongoose" meetings right in the Attorney General's office at the Justice Department building ("Main Justice") in Federal Triangle downtown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lansdale

Lansdale was not technically part of the "Georgetown Set" as he was a Midwesterner and non-Ivy Leaguer. Another person from the era who fits that description is of course William King Harvey, an Indiana lawyer and FBI agent who ran into trouble at "the Bureau" and wound up at the CIA as it was being raised from the ashes of the OSS (which Pres. Truman, who distrusted and disliked "Wild Bill" Donovan and considered the OSS a bunch of preppy loose cannons, had pulled the plug on at his earliest opportunity once he succeeded FDR). Harvey is famous for the Berlin tunnel eavesdropping project as well as for the insulting behavior that Guy Burgess showed toward Harvey's wife during a dinner party at Kim Philby's house in NW DC. Angleton and Harvey disagreed about whether Philby was an enemy spy; Harvey turned out to be right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_King_Harvey


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Since this thread isn't in The Interchange it's about what, clothing?

Do the posters here realize it reads as clubby as the persons it describes? What is the point to all this? It's coming across as a show-off of arcane knowledge by a handful of posters regarding people and a period they want us to believe are oh-so colorful. I'm not buying. ​


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## Dr. NS (Aug 25, 2009)

Peak and Pine said:


> Since this thread isn't in The Interchange it's about what, clothing?
> 
> Do the posters here realize it reads as clubby as the persons it describes? What is the point to all this? It's coming across as a show-off of arcane knowledge by a handful of posters regarding people and a period they want us to believe are oh-so colorful. I'm not buying. ​


Wow. Some strong words...


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

well....obviously the photos are showing the trad clothing they sported....


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Peak and Pine said:


> Since this thread isn't in The Interchange it's about what, clothing?
> 
> Do the posters here realize it reads as clubby as the persons it describes? What is the point to all this? It's coming across as a show-off of arcane knowledge by a handful of posters regarding people and a period they want us to believe are oh-so colorful. I'm not buying. ​


It's a bit clubby but we haven't tried to overthrow any govenments yet--give us time, give us time!


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Peak and Pine said:


> Since this thread isn't in The Interchange it's about what, clothing?
> 
> Do the posters here realize it reads as clubby as the persons it describes? What is the point to all this? It's coming across as a show-off of arcane knowledge by a handful of posters regarding people and a period they want us to believe are oh-so colorful. I'm not buying. ​


It's obviously showing the style of a certain group of men in a certain era and circle, with notes about their background for the uninitiated. Perfectly appropriate. Chill.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

rsmeyer said:


> It's obviously showing the style of a certain group of men in a certain era and circle, with notes about their background *for the unitiated*.Perfectly appropriate. Chill.


See, there you go,_ uninitiated. _I told you this thread was clubby. Before you hurl the standard If You Don't Like It, Don't Read It jazz, may I point out that this is the internet, not some Book Club meeting, and that it's your duty to at least try to make what you're talking about mildly interesting and approachable to a larger number, not just show off to each other how much you know about this incredibly boring subject, full of awful pictures of people who, with rare exception, have no style at all.
​


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

*Dulles*

Apparently Allen Dulles was fired by Kennedy?


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Bermuda said:


> Apparently Allen Dulles was fired by Kennedy?


Yes. Kennedy was not big on taking responsibility for things. I love this thread. I think it is a really cool version of "Trad" -- spy trad.

BTW - I have a copy of the book Donovan and The CIA: A History of the Establishment of the Central Intelligence Agency by Thomas F. Troy. Rare book with cool trad pictures. Oddly enough this is about as non-political a thread as can be. It pictures Republicans right along side Democrats both highly concerned with the future of the country--and nicely dressed at the same time.










Clark Clifford


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*Arthur Schlesinger Jr.*

OSS Veteran, Stevenson speechwriter, co-founder of Americans for Democratic Action, special assistant to JFK. As his NYT obituary puts it "Mr. Schlesinger later became part of the powerful circle surrounding the journalist Joseph Alsop, a group that included Philip Graham, publisher of The Washington Post, W. Averell Harriman, former governor of New York, and the lawyer Clark Clifford. Mr. Schlesinger met Mr. Kennedy, then a senator, at an Alsop soiree. His impression: "Kennedy seemed very sincere and not unintelligent, but kind of on the conservative side.""


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

WRT that pic of Schlesinger using a card catalogue (now there's a museum-grade artifact for you--once in a while I catch myself explaining to a youngster what one was!) I note with interest the pressed-in creases running down his suitcoat sleeves. I wonder if his cleaner's just did that, or if it was something he ordered?

I used to see the late Clark Clifford on the street, and once (to my surprise) in a Good Friday service at St. Matthew's Cathedral (I didn't know he was Catholic or had RC leanings). He was indeed beautifully dressed (everything bespoken, I believe) and very distinguished-looking in general. I particularly like his tie and collar presentation, and his grasp of the commanding diagonal as a neckwear staple (Dean Acheson had the same knack):









And here's a last one of him, overlooked by the resplendently well turned-out statue of Baron von Steuben at the northwest corner of Washington's Lafayette Square:


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Peak and Pine said:


> See, there you go,_ uninitiated. _I told you this thread was clubby. Before you hurl the standard If You Don't Like It, Don't Read It jazz, may I point out that this is the internet, not some Book Club meeting, and that it's your duty to at least try to make what you're talking about mildly interesting and approachable to a larger number, not just show off to each other how much you know about this incredibly boring subject, full of awful pictures of people who, with rare exception, have no style at all.
> ​


No, this is not "the internet"; it is a specific forum with people of specific interests. Please do chill.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm shining up my special black ball for P&P!! 

Interesting stuff.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

For people who are interested in these folks and their heyday, let me also recommend a book called "The Wise Men", about Harriman, McCloy, Bohlen, Acheson et al (lent it, can't recall the authors) and a _great _spy novel by Nelson De Mille, "The Talbot Odessey"

And I note from the photos, these super prep/Ivy types didn't always pay particular attention to which buttons can't be/must be buttoned


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

phyrpowr said:


> For people who are interested in these folks and their heyday, let me also recommend a book called "The Wise Men", about Harriman, McCloy, Bohlen, Acheson et al (lent it, can't recall the authors) and a _great _spy novel by Nelson De Mille, "The Talbot Odessey"
> 
> And I note from the photos, these super prep/Ivy types didn't always pay particular attention to which buttons can't be/must be buttoned


The _Wise Men_ is by the journalist Evan Thomas (whose grandfather, for those who are following along in their programs, was the onetime Socialist candidate for the U.S. presidency, Norman Thomas).

_Sea of Thunder_ is my favorite Evan Thomas book. His biography of John Paul Jones had its moments, but is not his best work. I keep meaning to get around to _TWM._


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*Phil Graham 1954*


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Peak and Pine said:


> See, there you go,_ uninitiated. _I told you this thread was clubby. Before you hurl the standard If You Don't Like It, Don't Read It jazz, may I point out that this is the internet, not some Book Club meeting, and that *it's your duty to at least try to make what you're talking about mildly interesting and approachable to a larger number*, not just show off to each other how much you know about this incredibly boring subject, full of awful pictures of people who, with rare exception, have no style at all.
> ​


LOL!

P&P people are enjoying this thread, and until you started causing trouble in it, everyone was getting along. Any forum requires a certain degree of _initiation_ as it is about a specialized topic. Were I to visit a forum about, say, audio equipment I would have no clue what was going on until I spent enough time reading and listening to learn the basics.

Not every thread is for every person. Apparently this one isn't for you. Let the people who are enjoying it peacefully continue to do so.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

AlanC said:


> ...Any forum requires a certain degree of _initiation_ as it is about a specialized topic.


A little prequisite knowledge would go a long way in preventing ignorant preconcieved notions being put forth, yes?? (What car do you drive)

:teacha:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

AlanC said:


> LOL!
> 
> P&P people are enjoying this thread, and until you started causing trouble in it, everyone was getting along. Any forum requires a certain degree of _initiation_ as it is about a specialized topic. Were I to visit a forum about, say, audio equipment I would have no clue what was going on until I spent enough time reading and listening to learn the basics.
> 
> Not every thread is for every person. Apparently this one isn't for you. Let the people who are enjoying it peacefully continue to do so.


Seconded.

P&P, you are coming very close to trolling.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

WouldaShoulda said:


> (What car do you drive)


'96 Nissan Sentra with three hubcaps


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

PJC in NoVa said:


> The _Wise Men_ is by the journalist Evan Thomas (whose grandfather, for those who are following along in their programs, was the onetime Socialist candidate for the U.S. presidency, Norman Thomas).


Great book. Several pics of gents in trad wear to boot.


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## KennethB (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm enjoying the thread and appreciate the annotated bibliography some are providing.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Cowtown said:


> Great book. Several pics of gents in trad wear to boot.


Dean Acheson's memoir _Present at the Creation_ also has a trove of pics that are well worth examining for the elegant suits and ties this famously well-dressed diplomat used to wear, as well as a shot of him in the woodworking shop at his Maryland farm, wearing khakis and a workshirt (just to show that he didn't actually garden or sleep in a 3-piece suit, I suppose).

My date and I were lucky enough to wind up seated next to his son, David C. Acheson, at a banquet a couple of years ago. DCA looks a lot like his father, and was a pleasure to talk to. We discussed the original drinking-song lyrics that went with the tune ("To Anacreon in His Heaven") which we now know as "The Star-Spangled Banner," what it was like to serve aboard a warship in the Pacific Theater in WWII (DCA, like my late father, was a Navy veteran of that conflict), and Dean Acheson's favorite Shakespeare play ("Henry VIII"). Mr. A. wore a beautiful pale-yellow brocaded vest with his dinner jacket that was something to see. All in all, he seemed a really fine man.


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## KennethB (Jul 29, 2009)

AldenPyle said:


> The Georgetown Crowd was a coterie of like minded spies, diplomats and journalists who socialized together in their NW Washington D.C. neighborhood during the Eisenhower administration and into Camelot. They were mostly left-of-center, mostly Ivy league educated, and mostly veterans of the OSS during World War II. They didn't like isolationists and they hated Communists, but they liked tennis and loved cocktails. Initially, they gathered around the Q Street house of OSS paterfamilias and the original Director of Plans (DP) at the CIA, Frank Wisner


Great photos. Can you cite sources for the commentary you provided? (I'm looking for something to read.) And, isn't it the Georgetown Set (or the Wisner Gang)?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Peak and Pine said:


> it's your duty to at least try to make what you're talking about mildly interesting and approachable to a larger number


Not really. Although the broader internet may be home to billions, this is a one sub-forum of four sub-fora of the clothing section of a men's clothing forum.

Perhaps it is sufficient to address solely the interests of the few members who are interested in reading this thread rather than the unspecified _larger_ number to which you refer.

Unless, of course, the _larger number_ to which you allude is the smaller number of everyone who posted on this thread before you arrived ... plus you.

In which case, it is your duty not to bring your disagreeable opinion of the conversation to the conversation which had theretofore been agreeable.

In other words, If You Don't Like It, Don't Read It

... and certainly don't denigrate its importance to those who do like it.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

KennethB said:


> Great photos. Can you cite sources for the commentary you provided? (I'm looking for something to read.) And, isn't it the Georgetown Set (or the Wisner Gang)?


I just looked at different stuff on the internet of varying degrees of reliability.
I haven't read it, but this looks pretty on point
https://www.amazon.com/Georgetown-Ladies-Social-Club-Politics/dp/0743428560


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## KennethB (Jul 29, 2009)

Thanks. I read _Legacy of Ashes_, which covers much of this - I've no clue as to it's accuracy, but it was a good read. The photos are fantastic; thanks for searching and posting.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

AldenPyle said:


> I just looked at different stuff on the internet of varying degrees of reliability.
> I haven't read it, but this looks pretty on point
> https://www.amazon.com/Georgetown-Ladies-Social-Club-Politics/dp/0743428560


IMO, Heyymann is not a very reliable source.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

General William J. "Wild Bill" Donovan headed the OSS after having been asked to act as a private intelligence gatherer for FDR in Europe during 1940-41. Donovan was an "Ivy League Irishman" (Columbia & Columbia Law School), a Wall Street lawyer, and an Irish Catholic who was also a Republican. Along with Navy Secretary Frank Knox and War Secretary Henry L. Stimson, WJD was one of the Republicans to whom FDR turned for help with national-security matters.

WJD had commanded the famous "Fighting 69th" in France during WWI, where he was wounded and earned the Congressional Medal of Honor. There's some interesting material on his experiences as a combat leader in Joseph Persico's excellent book _Eleventh Month, Eleventh Day, Eleventh Hour:_
_https://www.amazon.com/dp/0375760458/_

WJD was known for leading his men from the front, and (at the age of 35 in 1918) for being fit enough to set the pace (he had been a varsity football player at Columbia and stayed in shape). He brought a similar "foward-leaning" attitude to the OSS, where he was known for better or worse as a voluble "idea man" (a description I heard personally from one of WJD's aides).

With that, some photos:










PS: The group photo shows FDR with members of his Columbia Law School class. WJD is two people to the right of the president as you look at the photo, seated on the arm of the sofa. In the second photo of the set, he is standing with Fr. Francis Duffy, the 69th's regimental chaplain. More on Duffy and Donovan here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574886517/


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm impressed that someone so prominent is remembered so modestly.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'm impressed that someone so prominent is remembered so modestly.


Arlington is like that.

My parents rest there, so I'm on the grounds fairly often.

It's modest, but what impresses you is how lovingly and painstakingly it's all taken care of.

Last time I was visiting, I noticed staff out with strings, stakes, spirit levels, tape measures, and some kind of theodolite (??) or other visual-sighting instrument. They were checking rows of headstones to make sure that they were all standing perfectly vertical and at exactly the same height.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Arlington is like that.
> 
> My parents rest there, so I'm on the grounds fairly often.


Grant them peace. My wife's family also.

But on the hill on the Navy annex side, the testamonials are far less modest for sometimes the far less accomplished.

Especially in passing, being egalitarian seems apropos.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

That looks for all the world like a Paul Fredrick snap tab collar shirt.

Could it be? Could CC have gone RTW in his later years?


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> The _Wise Men_ is by the journalist Evan Thomas (whose grandfather, for those who are following along in their programs, was the onetime Socialist candidate for the U.S. presidency, Norman Thomas).
> 
> _Sea of Thunder_ is my favorite Evan Thomas book. His biography of John Paul Jones had its moments, but is not his best work. I keep meaning to get around to _TWM._


I've only read The Man to See, but that was one of my all time favorites. The Wise Men and RFK are sitting on my shelf.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> That looks for all the world like a Paul Fredrick snap tab collar shirt.
> 
> Could it be? Could CC have gone RTW in his later years?


Never say never - there was the whole BCCI scandal and all...perhaps when you lose it you get taken by a ride by Arab shieks and order clothes from catalogs. :icon_smile_big:


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> My date and I were lucky enough to wind up seated next to his son, David C. Acheson, at a banquet a couple of years ago. DCA looks a lot like his father, and was a pleasure to talk to. We discussed the original drinking-song lyrics that went with the tune ("To Anacreon in His Heaven") which we now know as "The Star-Spangled Banner," what it was like to serve aboard a warship in the Pacific Theater in WWII (DCA, like my late father, was a Navy veteran of that conflict), and Dean Acheson's favorite Shakespeare play ("Henry VIII"). Mr. A. wore a beautiful pale-yellow brocaded vest with his dinner jacket that was something to see. All in all, he seemed a really fine man.


Interesting that H8 was Acheson's favorite Shakespeare play. I read it in college and really enjoyed it, but having also seen it performed by the WSC when they were here, it reads better than it performs.

Acheson's memoirs of his dad, Growing Up Acheson, was really interesting and had a couple pages on his clothing. Apparently he couldn't abide striped ties - possibly something to do with his Anglomania?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

DCLawyer68 said:


> Interesting that H8 was Acheson's favorite Shakespeare play. I read it in college and really enjoyed it, but having also seen it performed by the WSC when they were here, it reads better than it performs.
> 
> Acheson's memoirs of his dad, Growing Up Acheson, was really interesting and had a couple pages on his clothing. Apparently he couldn't abide striped ties - possibly something to do with his Anglomania?


It's a great play about the treacherous nature of high politics.

You know, I've always casually associated Acheson _pere_ with striped ties, but an image search reveals him as in fact a master of the foulard. I did find this one pic, however:


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

DCLawyer68 said:


> Never say never - there was the whole BCCI scandal and all...perhaps when you lose it you get taken by a ride by Arab shieks and order clothes from catalogs. :icon_smile_big:


It wasn't just some sheiks who took him for a ride (if indeed he was "taken for a ride" at all), but I don't want to wander too far afield from a focus on clothing.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> If You Don't Like It, Don't Read It
> 
> ... and certainly don't denigrate its importance to those who do like it.


Goodness, I've drawn out A. Kabbazz of NYC and East Hampton. Hardly my intent. (The man has always scared me.) Pls accept my profound apologies for falling asleep during most of this thread, then waking up to find the scroll of black & white continues as I madly pound on the ESC key, but to no avail. I'm trapped in here it seems. When I get out, if ever, I'm going to really kick myself for bringing forth the wisp of dissent that I did. Believe me, I've learned my lesson.​


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Even in that reply (as funny as some parts of it are) you appear to be as passive-aggressive as always. It's not that it's dissent, it's that you brought down the tone of the thread. That's no fun. If you want to start a thread on how you really feel about them beyond the relatively unbiased history provided earlier, you may do so in the Interchange. Otherwise, don't spoil the fun of others.

It's like someone starting a thread about how wonderful Gatorade is, people responding how great they also think it is for their hydration needs, then one person coming in and saying it sucks and no one should drink it merely because they CAN say it. Are you seeing what I mean yet?


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## Forbes (Jan 8, 2008)

I may be a bit off base here, but I'd nominate Bishop Paul Moore as a member of this crowd. My recollection of Nina Burleigh's largely anecdotal "A Very Private Woman" is that Moore, who served as Suffragan Bishop of Washington from 1964 to 1972, presided over Mrs. Meyer's funeral.

Burleigh's book, while poorly sourced, is a good read for anyone who's interested in the Georgetown gang.

Here's Bishop Moore:


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