# Gunwalker Scandal AKA "Operation Fast and Furious"



## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

I've been following this scandal for 6 months now and it is really getting deep.

Simply put, the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) knowingly allowed at least 2,500 firearms (mostly AK-47 variants and some .50 caliber sniper rifles) to be bought in the U.S. by straw purchasers and 'walked' across the southern border to the Mexican drug cartels. Those cartels then used the weapons to commit crimes and murder countless numbers of Mexican civilians, politicians, police officers and military personnel.

It was not until U.S. Border Agent Brian Agent, armed with only a less lethal beanbag gun, was killed with one of those BATFE 'walked' AK variants on December 15, 2010 and several ATF agents spoke up as a result did this scandal become revealed to the outside world. Since then a total of 3 U.S. federal agents have been killed with BATFE 'walked' guns.

These guns were supposedly walked in order to track them to the cartels, however, the BATFE has no resources to track said guns in Mexico and the Mexican government admits that it had no knowledge of Operation Fast and Furious.

It is starting to look as if this operation had political reasons behind it rather than law enforcement in mind, especially considering the fact that no guns walked until after the current Administration came into office. Also incriminating is the current The question we need to ask is how high does this scandal go? Were these guns walked in order to push a political agenda in the U.S.?

We know BATFE acting director Melson knew about it (he even had a video system installed in his office so he could watch guns being walked) and Issa is very confident that Attorney General Eric Holder knew about and may even signed off on Operation Fast and Furious. Is it possible that Obama also knew about it? Agent Jay Robbins stated that this was known .

Congressmen Issa and Grassely are leading the way in getting to the root of the scandal and Issa is now heading a congressional hearing and investigation.

Quite frankly, this scandal is starting to look bigger than both Iran-Contra and Watergate. This scandal is turning out to be state-sanctioned terrorism that has claimed the lives of hunderds if not thousands of innocent people in both Mexico and the United States. And roughly half of the walked guns are still unaccounted for.

In short, the Administration was blaming the drug violence in Mexico on American guns and hinting at stricter gun control while a U.S. government agency sworn to enforce its laws was breaking said laws by allowing and perhaps even taking part in the movement of guns across the border. Unbelievable.

Resources:

Journalist's guide to Gunwalker:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Here is a timeline of Operation Fast and Furious along with a much more detailed timeline.

AZStar Phoenix paper
FOX - Senator alleges ATF allowing guns into Mexico
USATODAY - Senator alleges ATF allows guns into Mexico
Gunwalker allegations bolstered by gunrunner indictments
Feb 4 DOJ response to Grassley
Sample questions for ATF by insider
Feb 9 Grassley response to DOJ

Feb 14 - Washington Times joins in 

Feb 16 - Grassley letter to Holder
Larry Pratt on FOXNews

CBS Story
Alan Gottlieb smacks ATF/DOJ
Some random indictments and comments from Congressman Raul Labrador
March 3 - Grassley Letter to Holder
CBS video w/ Dodson (whistleblower) + Story link

Mexico joins in questioning ATF

March 8 - Grassley letter to Perkins

April 4, 2011
Subpoena to ATF

April 18, 2011
More deaths confirmed

April 19, 2011
Michelle Malkin Project Gunrunner Update

May 3, 2011

ATF FOIA from David Codrea 
https://www.scribd.com/doc/52414606/ATF-FOIA-Response
Letter by Senator Grassley:

April 4, 2011 response from DOJ to Lamar Smith 
https://www.scribd.com/doc/52585674/DOJ-Response-to-ATF-Letter-3-9

Filed motion in Fed Court accusing FBI/ICE/DEA/Etc... 
https://borderreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Picture-2.png

April 8, 2011 Letter from Grassley to Melson 
https://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/gunwalker_letter.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

April 13, 2011 New letter from Grassley with emails from "Cooperating FFL's" 
https://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/gunwalking_emails_041411.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody 
Full video of Grassley:




Deaths confirmed by operation Fast & Furious
https://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/04/transcript-of-univision-here-now.html

April 20, 2011 Project Gunrunner document drop: Issa blasts DOJ stonewalling, threatens contempt proceedings

May 4, 2011 Issa Leads Congressional Investigation of DOJ's ATF "Operation Fast & Furious" 
https://issa.house.gov/index.php?op...uriousq&catid=63:2011-press-releases&Itemid=4

May 16, 2011 Actual letter to Holder, from Lieberman saying the ATF should require long gun reporting 
https://hsgac.senate.gov/public/ind...Store_id=911cda84-19d0-4421-8644-1648b14388a6
Another Grassley letter:

Jan 10, 2010 memo from ATF re: investigation/gunrunning/other agency involvment

June 3, 2011: 31 U.S. House members -- all Democrats -- wrote to President Barack Obama, urging him to end Administration stonewalling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' "Project Gunrunner," and the "Fast and Furious
https://www.nramedia.org/t/91105/6879454/4580/0/

June 15, 2011: congressional hearings

June 23, 2011: BATFE retaliates against whistle-blower Agent Vince Cefalu even after Issa warns them not to:
https://www.examiner.com/gun-rights...-issa-s-no-retaliation-warning-by-retaliating

June 23, 2011: LA Times: Melson to step down, "reportedly eager to testify to Congress about the extent of his and other officials' involvement." 
https://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110624,0,7283758.story


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

It's the interchange so I guess you can post anything you want, but all this gun stuff seems a real stretch and I'm not so sure the interchange is to be used solely for the sake of posting political grudges, including this "bigger than Watergate" claim you make. What do you know about Watergate, were you around for it?


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peak and Pine said:


> It's the interchange so I guess you can post anything you want, but all this gun stuff seems a real stretch and I'm not so sure the interchange is to be used solely for the sake of posting political grudges, including this "bigger than Watergate" claim you make. What do you know about Watergate, were you around for it?


I've researched plenty about Watergate. Frankly, when did Watergate involve the murder of hundreds if not thousands of innocents being sanctioned by the U.S. government? Did you not look at any of the resources I provided? I am not the only one comparing it to Watergate.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

thunderw21 said:


> Did you not look at any of the *resources *I provided? I am not the only one comparing it to Watergate.


What you call resources I call right wing websites; Foxnews.com, Redstate.com, the Examiner.com. I stopped after that. One site had a spot for comments and someone had posted:

"This is HUGE. Infinitely worse than Watergate. Worse than Clinton's perjury. At least as bad as Iran/Contra."

So was that you? Or was it where you got that Watergate thing?


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

Not to be rude, but Tl;dr. So, can you possibly give the cliff notes version to this story?


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peak and Pine said:


> What you call resources I call right wing websites; Foxnews.com, Redstate.com, the Examiner.com. I stopped after that. One site had a spot for comments and someone had posted:
> 
> "This is HUGE. Infinitely worse than Watergate. Worse than Clinton's perjury. At least as bad as Iran/Contra."
> 
> So was that you? Or was it where you got that Watergate thing?


You conveniently missed the stories from CNN, CBS, the LA Times, C-SPAN, the Washington Times, USA Today, the Arizona Star, numerous official congressional websites, other .gov oversight websites, official Mexican government websites and videos of the congressional hearings, etc. I provided official investigation sites, MSM sites and lesser known (what you call "right wing" sites) that are dedicated to the scandal. Pick and choose what you will, but they're all saying pretty much the same thing.

Deny it all you want, people have and will continue to die as a result of this.



ZachGranstrom said:


> ...can you possibly give the cliff notes version to this story?


In short, the Administration was blaming the drug cartel violence in Mexico on American guns and hinting at stricter gun control. At the same time a U.S. government agency sworn to enforce our laws was breaking said laws by allowing and perhaps even taking part in the movement of thounsands of guns across the border. 
3 U.S. federal agents and hundreds of Mexican citizens have been killed with those thousands of guns , many of which are still in the hands of the cartels.

State sponsored terrorism.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Is The Daily Show with Jon Stewart too right-wing for you? 'Cause at that link he talks about it for the first 10 minutes.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Pretty alarming, gotta say, and it hadn't really been that big on my radar.

Which of those links document(s) the administration's hints about stricter gun control? (That hadn't been on my radar, either.)

In suggesting that there may have been political motivations behind the operation, are you also ready to admit that there may be political motivations behind some of the reporting about it? (Not a trick question and doesn't require a long answer. Really just hoping for a simple yes or no, or some reasonable approximation thereof.)


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## Regillus (Mar 15, 2011)

I think it's a stretch to say it's state-sanctioned terrorism. It's not clear at present just who tacitly approved or even knew about the operation at the White House level. On the other hand; it's clearly a stupid idea thought up and implemented by people at ATF. Letting straw purchasers buy guns and give them to people who took them to Mexico where gangs used them to kill people with. It's another example of gov't employees not doing their jobs and the public being harmed because of it. It's similar to the recent ****** Bulger arrest and fiasco. FBI agent John Connolly fed Bulger information that Bulger then used to commit crimes and murders with. It was a huge scandal here in Boston because the BPD was sharing info with the FBI who then passed it on to Bulger who used the info to avoid being connected to crimes. Connolly was sentenced to 40 years in prison.
I just don't understand how people can possess such a profound degree of indifference to human life as seen in this gun-runner operation. If the guns were used to kill people with; do they shut it down or let it continue? They chose to let it continue, and more people were murdered, and the guys at ATF just don't care. I hope to see some long prison sentences come out of this.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

If you knowingly let a straw purchase continue, you are just as culpable as the one who committed it. The ATF members should be tried and held accountable for those deaths.

I have zero tolerance for straw purchases, as a former arms dealer. They give the profession a bad name. _If_ the ATF was intentionally doing this for politically reasons (like to get backing for additional regulation to bypass the 2nd amendment), they should be tried for Treason. They have broken the fundamental oath of protecting the constitution of the USA.

I understand and agree with "prosecution desecration," but not "enforcement discretion." If you as a sworn LE officer know something is against the law, you enforce it. The courts determine whether or not to bring it to trial. That said, if this was part of a larger sting operation gone bad... maybe their is some leeway in their actions. Maybe.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Apatheticviews said:


> ...I have zero tolerance for straw purchases, as a former arms dealer. They give the profession a bad name. _If_ the ATF was intentionally doing this for politically reasons (like to get backing for additional regulation to bypass the 2nd amendment), they should be tried for Treason. They have broken the fundamental oath of protecting the constitution of the USA.


 AV, it might interest you to know that many FFL holders warned the ATF about people they suspected were straw purchasing and were specifically instructed by the ATF to let them leave since they were already "under surveillance." When those guns started turning up at crime scenes, the very dealers that tried to do the right thing and were instructed to do otherwise by the ATF were thrown under the bus and blamed for the flow of guns into Mexico.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> AV, it might interest you to know that many FFL holders warned the ATF about people they suspected were straw purchasing and were specifically instructed by the ATF to let them leave since they were already "under surveillance." When those guns started turning up at crime scenes, the very dealers that tried to do the right thing and were instructed to do otherwise by the ATF were thrown under the bus and blamed for the flow of guns into Mexico.


It doesn't surprise me in the least. Having dealt with the administrative arm of the ATF in the past, this seems very likely.


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## mommatook1 (Apr 17, 2008)

Illegally flood Mexico with weapons so that they can be tracked to Mexican criminal elements, but don't inform or cooperate with any of the Mexican agencies or organizations that would enable the tracking of the weapons... and then predictably loose track of the weapons. Definitely sounds like a federal employee's brainchild. I wonder if there were actually any positive results of this operation. I'm sure it briefed well.

Regardless of whether or not this is a grand scheme by the liberals to increase gun control, it should be embarrassing for the president in the least, since he made a point of claiming that the drug war in Mexico is being fueled by guns from America. I am amazed this hasn't gotten more mainstream coverage, but then again, I guess it's not that surprising.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Generally it is the Schedule C, political appointees, appointed to senior executive/management positions within the agencies and who are seeking to suck up to their elected political sponsors, who are the 'genesis' for such flagrantly foolish , hair-brained initiatives. The career employees charged with executing the schemes of such professionally incompetent appointees are simply additional victims in the process. As to whether the President knew(?), keep in mind the realities of relationships between this president (or any former presidents, for that matter) and their direct appointees...these fellows suck up to the President more intimately than a slew of piglets attaching themselves to the teats of the maternal sow!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Generally it is the Schedule C, political appointees, appointed to senior executive/management positions within the agencies and who are seeking to suck up to their elected political sponsors, who are the 'genesis' for such flagrantly foolish , hair-brained initiatives. The career employees charged with executing the schemes of such professionally incompetent appointees are simply additional victims in the process. As to whether the President knew(?), keep in mind the realities of relationships between this president (or any former presidents, for that matter) and their direct appointees...these fellows suck up to the President more intimately than a slew of piglets attaching themselves to the teats of the maternal sow!


As a military man, you know that "A senior is responsible for his subordinates actions, regardless of whether he was aware of those actions or not, by virtue of placing those subordinates in positions of trust."

Did he give the order? Who knows. Is he responsible for the actions of his cabinet members? Hell yes. He nominated them. He chose them as his "right hand men" to handle his affairs in those specific departments. He delegated his authority, but not his responsibility.

Think back to when you had a young troop who did something foolish. You had him AND his sergeant standing tall in your your office regarding the infraction. This is no different.

I'm not saying the President is responsible for every man all the way down the chain of command, but he should be responsible for political appointee level members. An operation like this would have to approval at that level, and if it didn't then the appointee needs to be standing tall before President (like the sergeant in my above example). Meaning the President is to blame (directly) because his direct appointee is making bad decisions, or the President is not blame because his direct appointee cannot control his men (he did however choose the wrong person to run this agency or cabinet).


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## mommatook1 (Apr 17, 2008)

I have as much contempt for political appointees as the next guy, but this could have easily been the brainchild of a -15 with his eyes set on making SES. There are plenty of career federal employees who rely on the good idea fairy to come around once in a while and sprinkle their performance evaluations with magic dust so they can continue to climb the ladder, regardless of whether or not there were ever any tangible positive results from said good ideas. Hopefully the investigation will get to the bottom of this operation, from genesis to failure (failure which will likely continue for years, if not longer, because they seem to have no idea where some of these thousands of weapons have ended up).

Either way, you are both definitely right that those higher in the chain of command, particularly with oversight or approval authority for this operation should be held accountable. As I've heard it in the context of the "Law of the Sea": with authority comes responsibility, and with them both comes accountability.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Right on cue, Congressman Cummings and other democrats are using the 'Fast and Furious' scandal to push for tighter gun control. How? By wanting to give _more_ power to the ATF, the same agency that walked the guns.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

thunderw21 said:


> Right on cue, Congressman Cummings and other democrats are using the 'Fast and Furious' scandal to push for tighter gun control. How? By wanting to give _more_ power to the ATF, the same agency that walked the guns.


Based on my "cursory" reading of the article, and my relative expertise (several years actually selling firearms) in the field, the ATF agent in question is a knucklehead. Ye olde congressman, selected his chosen "spokeman" to get the right sound bites, and because well, the ATF tends to want more gun control because they want to keep themselves in a job.

The ATF agent is asking to violate federal statutes.

1: The United States Government (specifically the ATF) may not collect data on US citizens which is not part of criminal investigation. The multiple Handgun Transaction form referenced was a major bone of contention. A multiple Long-gun form is pushing this to an extreme.

2: Toothless Legislation is a misnomer. $10,000 fine, 10years in prison is the STANDARD for lying on a federal form. PER INSTANCE. The US attorneys office not prosecuting is another issue entirely.

3: There are numerous tools already in place to enforce everything they have suggested. i could go over countless legislation, various laws, etc, and how they can put bad guys away if they want to. Just because they don't use the tools they have available, doesn't mean the tools aren't good.

4: The "Assault Weapons Ban" was "Cosmetic" is nature, and it did nothing to stem violent gun based crime. "Assault Weapons" aren't cheap, (a good AR starts in the $800 range), whereas a good shotgun is $200. Do the math...

That said.. if someone actually came up with legitimate "regulatory" legislation, I would be all for it. i.e. You commit a straw purchase, and that gun is used in a murder, you get an EXTRA 10 years (in addition to the $10k, 10 years from lying on the form), rock on. But don't ban a tool because an idiot doesn't know how to keep his hands out from under the blades.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

ATF guns are now showing up at crime scenes in Phoenix, Arizona.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Alluding to "state-sanctioned terrorism" does not help your cause in which I have empathy.

This is simply another example of big government "good intentions" go awry!!


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Alluding to "state-sanctioned terrorism" does not help your cause in which I have empathy.
> 
> This is simply another example of big government "good intentions" go awry!!


I disagree. There were no good intentions in the operation. As the whistle-blower ATF agents stated during the congressional hearings, no guns were tracked once they crossed the border and there were no plans to do so from the beginning. No attempt was made to track them. No attempt was made to connect the walked guns to the drug cartels. The ATF didn't have the resources to track them in Mexico and the Mexican government was left in the dark about the operation. What good intentions were there?

This being true, we can conclude that there were no law enforcement reasons for these guns to be walked. Effective law enforcement must take steps to go after the law breakers and that did not happen in Fast and Furious, even after 2,500 guns had been walked.

If Fast and Furious was not about law enforcement, what was it about? Myself and others including Grassely and Issa conclude it was about the politics of gun control. And even after the scandal broke certain powerful people to push for more gun control. Whoever put it into play, Fast and Furious was about flooding Mexico with guns illegal obtained in America with the blessing of the ATF.

That is state sanctioned terrorism.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm willing to give the ATF the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise. 

With skepticism of course. 

That's just how I roll!!


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'm willing to give the ATF the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise.
> 
> With skepticism of course.
> 
> That's just how I roll!!


Knowing what we know now, giving the ATF the benefit of the doubt is a dangerous thing to do.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)




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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

thunderw21 said:


> I disagree. There were no good intentions in the operation. As the whistle-blower ATF agents stated during the congressional hearings, no guns were tracked once they crossed the border and there were no plans to do so from the beginning. No attempt was made to track them. No attempt was made to connect the walked guns to the drug cartels. The ATF didn't have the resources to track them in Mexico and the Mexican government was left in the dark about the operation. What good intentions were there?
> 
> This being true, we can conclude that there were no law enforcement reasons for these guns to be walked. Effective law enforcement must take steps to go after the law breakers and that did not happen in Fast and Furious, even after 2,500 guns had been walked.
> 
> ...


You have to keep in mind that the ATF is NOT a Law Enforcement Agency. They are _Regulatory Agency_ designed to monitor restricted items. Specifically Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Notice the link. *TAXATION*.

They have Law Enforcement capabilities, but in reality they are an administrative arm. The only thing they really do well is ensure "compliance" with regulations (and if you've ever sat through one of there annual inspections, you'll know what true loathing is).


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

thunderw21 said:


> Knowing what we know now, giving the ATF the benefit of the doubt is a dangerous thing to do.


Knowing the ATF, giving the ATF the benefit of the doubt is dangerous.

Don't get me wrong. Individual FIELD Agents are generally good to go. But I wouldn't trust anyone else in the organization with anything more powerful than a potato gun.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Apatheticviews said:


> ...But I wouldn't trust anyone else in the organization with anything more powerful than a potato gun.


Looks like Grassley agrees with you.

"...he has seen emails pointing to a crucial meeting on Oct. 26, 2009. Senior Justice Department officials, the directors of the ATF, CIA and Drug Enforcement Agency, U.S. attorneys for all the Southwest border states, the director of the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force and the chairman of the Attorney General's Advisory Committee were all present, he said..."


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Mexican senators are now calling for extradition of the Fast and Furious decision makers.

"I obviously feel violated. I feel my country's sovereignty was violated," Mexico Sen. Rene Arce Islas told Fox News. "They should be tried in the United States and the Mexican government should also demand that they also be tried in Mexico since the incidents took place here. There should be trials in both places."


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

As much as I dislike what some of the higher-ups in this operation have allegedly done, I think that allowing other countries to extradite American officials for violating U.S. policy would set a very bad precedent.

I got a kick out of the NY Times article that basically blamed the NRA for "forcing" the ATF to resort to operations like Fast and Furious because its influence on Congress supposedly left the ATF weak and ineffective. I guess those pesky checks and balances can be annoying sometimes.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

At least the Honorable Senator from MX didn't ask to see anyone's badges.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> As much as I dislike what some of the higher-ups in this operation have allegedly done, I think that allowing other countries to extradite American officials for violating U.S. policy would set a very bad precedent.
> 
> I got a kick out of the NY Times article that basically blamed the NRA for "forcing" the ATF to resort to operations like Fast and Furious because its influence on Congress supposedly left the ATF weak and ineffective. I guess those pesky checks and balances can be annoying sometimes.


Actually... If Mexico has reciprocal laws regarding Import/Export infractions.. it would be an interesting study in law. The problem is that each "Agent" is an authorized representable of the US. As such, you really can't extradite them. They are acting on behalf of the US government. The most you can really do is sue the US government for their actions.

"Let's violate the law we're SWORN to uphold, because the people who are actively fighting for that RIGHT, are preventing us from get more laws passed infringing those rights...."


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## Regillus (Mar 15, 2011)

I've long thought that the ATF should be abolished and it's operations folded into the FBI. The FBI would do a better job of it. When the details of the investigations come out it'll be the usual scandalous mess that will hopefully lead to reforms that improve the situation.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Regillus said:


> I've long thought that the ATF should be abolished and it's operations folded into the FBI. The FBI would do a better job of it. When the details of the investigations come out it'll be the usual scandalous mess that will hopefully lead to reforms that improve the situation.


Because of the data collection piece (Federal form 4473), there is a conflict of interest with the FBI being directly charge of all "gun related" activities. Additionally, because of the regulatory nature of the ATF, specifically the Tobacco & Alcohol portions (ie the parts nobody ever thinks about), the FBI is ill equipped to handle the job they do, and a bad fit.

As I mentioned earlier,the BATFE (ie ATF) isn't really a LE agency, which is why they can _regulate_ and conduct annual inspections of personal data. The Privacy Act actually prevents the FBI from viewing a 4473, without probable cause strangely enough, even though it is a federal form.

We had a few investigations on import/export of gun parts (not weapons), involving the FBI, and I had to ask them for a Warrant before I could release info (they volunteered them) because although you do have to fill out the information to get a firearm, that information cannot be used again until the firearm in question "comes into play." Essentially you can't use the form against him, without doing actual police work.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

ATF acting-director .

From the above-linked letter to Holder from Issa and Grassley:



> *The evidence we have gathered raises the disturbing possibility that the Justice Department not only allowed criminals to smuggle weapons but that taxpayer dollars from other agencies may have financed those engaging in such activities.*


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

So, basically, the DEA and FBI were already watching the supposed "targets" of Fast and Furious, and had that information been shared, would've invalidated the whole operation and possibly prevented the deaths of Brian Terry and others? Wow, this is getting good.

Thunder, thanks for keeping this thread up to date. I'm following intently.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

^No problem. The more people who know, the better.

Captured Zita drug lord admits guns he used came from the U.S. including those sold by authorities of the United States government.
Mexican newspaper article

Also:
https://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/...er-after-secret-meeting-with-atfs-ken-melson/



> Top Republican lawmakers have authored an explosive new letter containing details of secret testimony by acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson, which reveal for the first time the extent to which his agency was involved in an international gun selling scandal.


And...



> Another point Melson clarified for investigators was that the ATF group carrying out the mission of Operation Fast and Furious was placed under the direction of the Arizona U.S. Attorney's office. The U.S. Attorney in Arizona, Dennis Burke, is a political appointee of the Obama administration.


ABC is finally jumping on the bandwagon... 6 months late.



> Melson testified that he and top management at ATF moved to reassign supervisors working on Fast and Furious and that officials at DOJ allegedly tried to prevent ATF from notifying the oversight committees about the full nature of the management moves. The letter sent to Holder notes, "If his account is accurate, then ATF leadership appears to have been effectively muzzled while the DOJ sent over false denials and buried its head in the sand. That approach distorted the truth and obstructed our investigation. The Department's inability or unwillingness to be more forthcoming served to conceal critical information that we are now learning about the involvement of other agencies, including the DEA and the FBI."


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

Wow! This makes Waco look like a camp fire! You can always count on the BATFE to do a bang-up job!


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

The plot thickens...

Did the ATF also 'walk' guns to Honduras through Florida?

On 21 September, 2010, A. Brian Albritton, United States Attorney for the Middle District of Florida .
I'd really like to see a detailed timeline on Operation Castaway, just to see if it coincides with us siding with Chavez and Castro when Honduras kicked out their President.

The scale of this scandal is so large there was no doubt in my mind that guns were being walked in more than just one state (Arizona) and this confirms those fears. How big will this scandal get?


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Wow. So now we potentially have guns being walked into Mexico from both ends? I guess the whole "90%" thing was more of a goal than an actual statistic.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

hardline_42 said:


> Wow. So now we potentially have guns being walked into Mexico from both ends? I guess the whole "90%" thing was more of a goal than an actual statistic.


Exactly.

This Operation Castaway also shows that it wasn't just a rogue agent or agency as some like to claim. It was widespread, going beyond agencies and offices. This thing goes up high.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

I, for one, would like to see the "BATFE loophole" closed in order to "keep guns out of the hands of criminals."


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

These guns aren't just going south of the border, either:

during traffic stop in Phoenix, AZ.

to the letter Grassley and Issa sent and pretty much gives them the finger.

And to top it all off, 10 Million dollars for Gunrunner in the stimulus bill. Someone in Congress knew about it and Obama signed it into law. Question now is did he know about it?


> H.R.1 is:
> For an additional amount for 'State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance', $40,000,000, for competitive grants to provide assistance and equipment to local law enforcement along the Southern border and in High-Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas to combat criminal narcotics activity stemming from the Southern border, of which $10,000,000 shall be transferred to 'Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Salaries and Expenses' for the *ATF Project Gunrunner.*


Every time I check my sources something new comes up. It just keeps going and going.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

We all know, no one actually reads these bills... they're written by interns, and debated by idiots.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Apatheticviews said:


> We all know, no one actually reads these bills... they're written by interns, and debated by idiots.


"We have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it."


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Good overall piece here, especially this line:



> There are reports of cartels financing U.S. politicians who have ties to the pharmaceutical industry. There are extremely solid reports of caches of large amounts of weapons that are too vast to have "fallen off the back of a truck".


I'd like to see some evidence of the highlighted portion, but if true it means the whole scandal goes far deeper than first thought.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Is the ATF overstepping its authority again? The ATF is now requiring four southern states to report the sales of multiple semi-auto rifles. Congress already told the ATF in no uncertain terms that multiple long gun reporting was off the table. Congress does not like to be defied.

The family of murder border agent Brian Terry is now suing the federal government for its part in his murder.

And Obama's Watergate.

Did the city leaders of Columbus, New Mexico who were arrested back in March for gun trafficking have anything to do with Operation Fast and Furious? This is another angle to keep an eye on.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

thunderw21 said:


> Is the ATF overstepping its authority again? The ATF is now requiring four southern states to report the sales of multiple semi-auto rifles. Congress already told the ATF in no uncertain terms that multiple long gun reporting was off the table. Congress does not like to be defied.


It is outside their authority (PERIOD), unless a new law is passed by congress that specifically allows it. That would fall under FBI's Investigative jurisdiction (if allowed). Even an Executive Order is pushing the bounds.

The ATF has a long history of breaking the law though... Post 9/11 they were conducting numerous illegal inspections of NFA Tax Stamp holders.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Apatheticviews said:


> It is outside their authority (PERIOD), unless a new law is passed by congress that specifically allows it. That would fall under FBI's Investigative jurisdiction (if allowed). Even an Executive Order is pushing the bounds.
> 
> The ATF has a long history of breaking the law though... Post 9/11 they were conducting numerous illegal inspections of NFA Tax Stamp holders.


One more thing around the ATF's neck. At this point no one should even take the ATF seriously.

Are we really at this point in America? The TSA is searching granny's underwear while the ATF is supplying weapons to cartels that behead, skin and otherwise torture its victims. It would be absolutely preposterous if it wasn't so real.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

thunderw21 said:


> One more thing around the ATF's neck. At this point no one should even take the ATF seriously.
> 
> Are we really at this point in America? The TSA is searching granny's underwear while the ATF is supplying weapons to cartels that behead, skin and otherwise torture its victims. It would be absolutely preposterous if it wasn't so real.


Think about it. We leave "detainees" in Gitmo (Cuba), so they don't have the protections of the Constitution (due process, speedy trial, etc).

There's the 5th, 6th, 8th, & 9th amendment out the window.. TSA bypasses the 4th Amendment. ATF bypasses the 2nd... Congress is constantly bypassing or attempting to bypass the 10th. We just had people busted for "flashmobbing" at one of the memorials... (Assembly, Speech) which takes down the 1st. The only thing left is the 3rd amendment...

It's become more of a game of how we can find a loophole to the constitution than remember it.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Oh look, Obama imposes stricter gun control via Executive Order. Following right along with the Fast and Furious playbook even after it was found out.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

Issa and Grassley name the DOJ's "Dirty Dozen" , 12 senior officials who were "unquestionably aware of the implementation of this reckless program" (Fast and Furious).



> July 11, 2011
> 
> The Honorable Eric Holder
> Attorney General
> ...


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

thunderw21 said:


> Oh look, Obama imposes stricter gun control via Executive Order. Following right along with the Fast and Furious playbook even after it was found out.


 Unfreakinbelievable. It's like he's pretending Fast and Furious never happened and the majority of the media channels are playing along. You know it's ridiculous when even the commenters in the HuffPo are begging them to cover the Fast and Furious story.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

hardline_42 said:


> Unfreakinbelievable. It's like he's pretending Fast and Furious never happened and the majority of the media channels are playing along. You know it's ridiculous when even the commenters in the HuffPo are begging them to cover the Fast and Furious story.


Here's my theory and it's twofold- Obama signed that Executive Order not only to strengthen gun control but also to appear innocent in regards to Gunwalker: "...see the actions of that 'rogue' bureau? We need to clamp down on straw purchasers so something like this can't happen again..."


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

thunderw21 said:


> "...see the actions of that 'rogue' bureau? We need to clamp down on straw purchasers so something like this can't happen again..."


"The budget I approved increases our debt 150%. Now let's eat our peas, get down to the business of working for the benefit of The People, and get our unsustainable debt under control!!"

:crazy:


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## mommatook1 (Apr 17, 2008)

Noticed a new article this morning:

WASHINGTON -- The head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has admitted that his agency, in at least one instance, allowed sales of high-powered weapons without intercepting them -- and he accuses his superiors at the Justice Department of stonewalling Congress to protect political appointees in the scandal over those decisions.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/...fast-and-furious-accuses-holder-stonewalling/

Mobile:


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

mommatook1 said:


> Noticed a new article this morning:
> 
> WASHINGTON -- The head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has admitted that his agency, in at least one instance, allowed sales of high-powered weapons without intercepting them -- and he accuses his superiors at the Justice Department of stonewalling Congress to protect political appointees in the scandal over those decisions.
> 
> ...


Sounds like he admits to knowing about the operation. Knows that it was badly controlled but allowed it to continue anyways, even though it was directly under his charter.

He's a tier 1 level agency head. He's got the president's phone number. He could have ended this. But he's playing the blame game, saying it was the Secretary of Justice (et al) who are the real villains.

I'm sorry if, one of the Armed Services ran into the same problem, they wouldn't be throwing it back up to DoD/SecDef, they would have used their organizations powers to correct the problem. Just because the agency is typically incompetent, doesn't excuse general incompetence.


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## Regillus (Mar 15, 2011)

From TheHill.com:

According to an article published in the New York Times on Sunday, undercover agents with the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) helped transport millions of dollars in cash across the U.S.-Mexico border in an effort to study and dismantle the trafficking routes of drug cartels.
The article said the DEA allowed the drug cartels to continue functioning as they tracked their money moving methods.
---------------------------
So the gov't let's guns flow freely across the border and now we're finding out that the gov't is letting money laundering proceed unhindered as well. What are we paying these people for?!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

The recently sealed all the court documents related to Fas & furious as well. Bye Bye Transparency!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Apatheticviews said:


> The recently sealed all the court documents related to Fas & furious as well. Bye Bye Transparency!


It will get out, but not likely until after the election.

Nice!!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Then again...



> House Speaker John Boehner is pressing forward with a vote Thursday to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt-and he appears to be making inroads into winning the support of at least a handful of Democrats who are facing tough reelection contests at home.
> 
> Already, four House Democrats have suggested that they'll break ranks and join Republicans to vote against Holder for his refusal to turn over documents related to Operation Fast and Furious.


https://slatest.slate.com/posts/201...ines_in_tomorrow_s_fast_and_furious_vote.html


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## dba (Oct 22, 2010)

thunderw21 said:


> Whoever put it into play, Fast and Furious was about flooding Mexico with guns illegal obtained in America with the blessing of the ATF.
> 
> That is state sanctioned terrorism.


No, it's not.

What is a gun? It is capability. It is blank potential. Theologians have explained the presence of evil in our world by saying that God wanted His creation to be free, and a man cannot be free unless he can choose between good and evil. It is the same with the gun; you hand it to a man, and he is no longer forced to obey the law. He has won the power to CHOOSE to obey the law; you have empowered him to kill and entrusted him not to, and as long as he holds the gun close to him, he is as powerful as any man can be, and as free.

I'm not a fan of this President and certainly not one of Mr. Holder. His going to the President and asking for Executive Privilege for the Fast and Furious documents is almost as outrageous as the President granting it. But whatever crimes that occur in Mexico as a result of these guns are Mexico's problem. Killing someone in Mexico with a gun, no matter where that gun came from is not a crime in the USA. The idea that some Mexican Senator wants to prosecute US Citizens in Mexico is preposterous. Maybe they should try a little harder to clean up their own yard and start providing a stable, non-corrupted government for their citizens.

The murder of Officer Terry on US soil is a different matter. To that end, everyone that had anything to do with walking these guns should be held accountable and punished to the point where they would not even be eligible to shag shopping carts at Wal-Mart.


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