# Choosing when to meet my maker



## Centaur (Feb 2, 2010)

Martin Amis recently proposed the erection of euthenasia booths on every street corner. Just a publicity-hungry novelist's gambit, perhaps. Nevertheless, I find myself agreeing with him. Medicine and hygiene have advanced to such an extent that, given average health, unless you smoke, drink to excess, are a glutton, have some dangerous hobby, or happen to step in front of a bus, it is quite possible nowadays to live to 90, at which point you will be standing (or stooping) at the threshold of helpless senility - incontinent, impotent, forgetful, incapable of looking after yourself, quite possibly financially compromised, and no longer in any condition to enjoy life.

Sometimes, for an unfortunate few - perhaps an over-exuberant rugby tackle, a fall whilst riding, or whatever - this condition happens sooner.

In a very few countries, the law allows one to call an end to an undignified and painful existence. When I am old, I can do the same, with minimal ingenuity, or a shotgun. Is there any reason not to, I wonder?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I thought you were breaking an appointment with your taylor!! 

Just pray you drop dead on your 88th birthday in the yard tending to your garden following a full and productive life.

That's what I do!!


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

If you're worried about this, you should at least consider a "living will" that specified the condition under which you want to be kept alive by artificial means. Make sure the people who might have to execute it know where it is and what you want. For example, if I have a heart attack, I want them to try the paddles. But if I'm unable to make a coherent decision and I can't feed myself and need a feeding tube, I'd say let me go in peace. That's in writing. My wife knows; and if she's not around, so does my niece and I've discussed it with her and sent her my wishes in writing. I don't want to put my family into a "Terry Schiavo" situation. The lawyer who did your wills should have asked you about this stuff. You _did _get a lawyer to make a will for you, didn't you?


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

I worry that I will get too frail/sick/incapacitated to commit suicide when my time comes.

I also worry that the funeral home will not know how to get a dimple under my necktie knot!!


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## harvey_birdman (Mar 10, 2008)

JerseyJohn said:


> You _did _get a lawyer to make a will for you, didn't you?


x2 on this. Don't just get some internet will package for $40 and think it's satisfactory. It MIGHT be, but it could easily have significant problems that aren't addressed based on your jurisdiction and prevailing law.

Disclosure, I am an attorney but I'm not trying to drum up business for myself, I don't handle estate issues.


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## welldressedfellow (May 28, 2008)

Speaking from a religious standpoint, suicide is not an option. Ever. Absolutely no circumstances would permit it. Of course, I don't want to be allowed to "live" after going senile and losing control of my bodily functions or to be in a vegetative state. So, I'm torn. Hopefully someone will pull the plug or grab the pillow and do me a favor when the time comes.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Suicide is cruel, cowardly and selfish IMO. If I'm in a hospital, I've made it very clear to my wife that...if I get to the point where modern medicine can only prolong a miserable existence...then to just keep me comfortable on morphine until I pass away. If I'm NOT in a hospital, I'll make arrangement to give a guy named Vito an envelope full of greenbacks to pop a pill in my head.


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## Centaur (Feb 2, 2010)

JerseyJohn said:


> If you're worried about this, you should at least consider a "living will" that specified the condition under which you want to be kept alive by artificial means. You _did _get a lawyer to make a will for you, didn't you?


Yes, I had a will drawn up, but it only concerns disposal of any wealth remaining after my death - it doesn't go into the sort of situation you mention.

At least here in the UK, carrying out the terms of the conditions I would wish to have attached to a 'living will' would quite probably be illegal for those concerned, as the law currently stands.



> welldressedfellow
> Speaking from a religious standpoint, suicide is not an option. Ever. Absolutely no circumstances would permit it.​


In general terms, I agree with that, but not under the specific circumstances of extreme old age or catastrophic injury where there is no possibility of recovery. I don't think it's realistic to expect to be kept alive come what may in those circumstances, and it's certainly not very dignified.



> TMMKC
> Suicide is cruel, cowardly and selfish IMO. ...if I get to the point where modern medicine can only prolong a miserable existence...then just keep me comfortable on morphine until I pass away. ​


I'm not sure that's how I would choose to be remembered!


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

I can see the Golden Gate Bridge from my house. It takes four seconds to hit the water. It is about 99.95% efficient.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I don't agree with euthenasia or suicide. I think they are are an insult to human life and in the case of suicide, as TMMKC said, also selfish, cowardly and cruel. I don't agree with abortion either I also consider that an insult to human life, some call it murder.

Why is it that things like abortion, euthenasia, suicide, open homosexuality are always adopted by the liberal faction and from outside the church, while trying to make the church look out of touch?

Do these people ever stop to think that the church (and society as a whole) might have had a good reason for being against unnatural practices like homosexuality, euthenasia, suicide, abortion; and homicide in general? I am also against the death penalty in all forms. Homicide is homicide whether committed by a hospital as euthenasia or by a state as an execution.


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## Centaur (Feb 2, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I don't agree with euthenasia or suicide. I think they are are an insult to human life and in the case of suicide, as TMMKC said, also selfish, cowardly and cruel. I don't agree with abortion either I also consider that an insult to human life, some call it murder.
> 
> Why is it that things like abortion, euthenasia, suicide, open homosexuality are always adopted by the liberal faction and from outside the church, while trying to make the church look out of touch?
> 
> Do these people ever stop to think that the church (and society as a whole) might have had a good reason for being against unnatural practices like homosexuality, euthenasia, suicide, abortion; and homicide in general? I am also against the death penalty in all forms. Homicide is homicide whether committed by a hospital as euthenasia or by a state as an execution.


I respect your views while not agreeing with them, but I'm really more interested in people's thoughts regarding the practical issue of how to deal with extreme old age and physical decrepitude.

Until quite recently, most elderly people would be taken away by influenza and other illnesses before reaching the stage of utter physical helplessness which increasingly is the unhappy state in which many people spend the final years of their life. It is not a natural condition but the perhaps unintended final outcome of a highly developed social and healthcare system. My own view, having had some first-hand experience, is that it is not a very satisfactory concluding episode to a person's life.

I'm not sure that - at least in the UK - the churches' views on euthanasia, suicide, the death penalty and other matters carry much weight these days. We are a largely secular society and most people tend to form their own opinions about things, rather than accepting the doctrines of whichever religion they belong to. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say they absorb their opinions from a range of sources, including but not confined to the media, friends, family, etc etc. Some Catholics and Muslims may be exceptions to this.

There certainly are good social reasons against euthanasia and suicide, but that does not mean they are wrong per se under all circumstances. The to my mind unnatural circumstances attendant upon extreme old age call for a different approach, in which euthanasia should be an available option.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

I have mixed feelings about this. 10 years ago I was vehemently against euthanasia - pretty much for all the reasons stated above. However, 9 years ago - to the day today - I watched my sister die. She had lung cancer and she died the most agonising, painful, inhumane death imaginable. She was 40 and was not a smoker. The thing is with a disease like cancer, when the end comes it's hard, fast and agonising. 

To get to the nub of this, when her end came she spent the last six hours of her life in agony - unable to breath and on a useless ventilator. This went on pretty much 'till her heart exploded (figuratively). The stress and strain meant her heart could not take it and gave in. No amount of morphine was able to numb her pain. It was such a traumatic thing for all of us to witness however; it was such a relief when she went.
I know that given the option she would have not wanted to suffer in such a manner. It's still very much taboo so it's not discussed. 

It's all too easy to say it's wrong and unnatural, but when you see a loved one suffer in such an extreme manner - you will realise it's just not that straight forward. Note: I'm not making the presumption you've not experienced such trauma, I'm only offering my experience and how it's left me with a different outlook on this topic.

I certainly don't want to go that way and in that much pain. Perhaps that makes me a coward. I don't care. When my death is certian and imminent, I want it as quick and as painless as is possible and if that means it's assisted, so be it.


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## Centaur (Feb 2, 2010)

^
Exactly the kind of situation I had in mind. Well put.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I just want to be able to live a long and good life,I don't ever think about "it",I'm still young.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Centaur said:


> I respect your views while not agreeing with them, but I'm really more interested in people's thoughts regarding the practical issue of how to deal with extreme old age and physical decrepitude.


I suggest being nice to your children!!


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## Centaur (Feb 2, 2010)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I suggest being nice to your children!!


 Good point - one tries :icon_smile_wink:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

My opinions are my opinions formed long ago when I was still a devout Atheist (read lapsed Catholic ). That they happen to coincide with the views of the Catholic church is pure coincidence. The idea that secular humanists as free thinkers support all those things I mentioned would be an oversimplification. I know many secular humanists who are vehemently against both euthenasia and abortion.
I don't think a "thinking" person's belief system (religious or atheist) has much affect on those views, except for the very religious who will follow their church's standing on those issues regardless. 

But back to the subject in hand, Sweden does a very good job of looking after the elderly. If memory serves I think Sweden now has the highest percentage of pensioners in the whole of Europe, due to healthy living, excellent healthcare, above average housing standards and good food. As for the elderly that are sick Sweden has a very good system of homes for the terminally ill. But euthenasia is not an option here yet and I don't think it ever will be. Although Sweden is mistakenly protrayed in the media as a secular, liberal, promiscuous country much like Holland, nothing could be further from the truth. Sweden is still very much a country with Lutheran values, ethics and morals and still connected to a rural, agrarian past. A lot of those in the bible-belt in the midwest came from Sweden.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> unnatural practices like homosexuality


It's a little hard to parse what you've written, but I truly hope you didn't mean to say this.


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## beherethen (Jun 6, 2009)

Pentheos said:


> It's a little hard to parse what you've written, but I truly hope you didn't mean to say this.


Forget about saying it. Who even _thinks_ this way today?


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

VictorRomeo said:


> I have mixed feelings about this. 10 years ago I was vehemently against euthanasia - pretty much for all the reasons stated above. However, 9 years ago - to the day today - I watched my sister die. She had lung cancer and she died the most agonising, painful, inhumane death imaginable. She was 40 and was not a smoker. The thing is with a disease like cancer, when the end comes it's hard, fast and agonising.
> 
> To get to the nub of this, when her end came she spent the last six hours of her life in agony - unable to breath and on a useless ventilator. This went on pretty much 'till her heart exploded (figuratively). The stress and strain meant her heart could not take it and gave in. No amount of morphine was able to numb her pain. It was such a traumatic thing for all of us to witness however; it was such a relief when she went.
> I know that given the option she would have not wanted to suffer in such a manner. It's still very much taboo so it's not discussed.
> ...


This exact situation happened to me, but it was my Grandmother who had lung cancer. ( I don't ever want to suffer the way she did..... Thankfully, my state now has the Death with Dignity act)


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

beherethen said:


> Forget about saying it. Who even _thinks_ this way today?


I'm hoping he doesn't. What he wrote was a bit unclear. I'm hoping for clarification.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I don't agree with euthenasia or suicide. I think they are are an insult to human life and in the case of suicide, as TMMKC said, also selfish, cowardly and cruel. I don't agree with abortion either I also consider that an insult to human life, some call it murder.
> 
> Why is it that things like abortion, euthenasia, suicide, open homosexuality are always adopted by the liberal faction and from outside the church, while trying to make the church look out of touch?
> 
> Do these people ever stop to think that the church (and society as a whole) might have had a good reason for being against unnatural practices like homosexuality, euthenasia, suicide, abortion; and homicide in general? I am also against the death penalty in all forms. Homicide is homicide whether committed by a hospital as euthenasia or by a state as an execution.


Just to play devil's advocate, because I neither agree nor disagree nor disagree with your stance. It is just as acceptable as the alternative in my view.

As an opponent of Homicide, do you also disagree with Armed Forces or Well Regulated Militias or Armed Police Services? Am I allowed to kill another in self defense? Is there a difference between murder and killing? Remember the 6th commandment (Hebrew translation) is very specific in its choice of wording. it doesn't prohibit killing, just murder.

As an entity with a currency, am I a free thinking individual entitled to spend said currency how I choose? Life is a currency like any other. How I choose to spend my life is a just that.


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## Baldwin (Jun 29, 2010)

I find it odd, the double standards we place on life. Example, a dog with kidney failure, a weak heart, arthritis, and a _clostridium difficle_ infectionand my great-uncle with the same conditions. Both require dialysis to live.

The dog would be put down "out of his misery." The vet and societal convention would argue that keeping the animal alive via expensive medical care or at home to die in pain would be inhumane. However, for a human being, my great-uncle died a "dignified" death cloistered in a nursing home, with lacerations on his arm from a fall, while spending the last 5 days under the influence of dopamine cursing his sister, nieces, and relatives was "dignified." Give me a damn break. The whole "image" of a dignified death is that of the gentleman farmer or retired businessman dying in his bed peacefully after having bid the family good-evening from dinner and giving his wife a good-night kiss. Yet due to the times, we end up in a nursing home or ICU covered in blood and excrement imploring for aid that will not come.

Give me a pinch of arsenic after my evening pipe and glass of port. I die quietly, and my estate remains in the family (not dwindling courtesy of the local elder warehousing operation).


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Baldwin said:


> my estate remains in the family (not dwindling courtesy of the local elder warehousing operation).


For now. Soon the taxman will get 55% to spend as he pleases.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

We've got a euthanasia booth in our apartment block, they euphemistically call it an 'elevator'.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

MikeDT said:


> We've got a euthanasia booth in our apartment block, they euphemistically call it an 'elevator'.


It's a tricky thing.

When it "works" it kills you.

When it doesn't work the climb kills you.

Diabolical!!


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