# What's wrong with this picture???



## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Remember when Brooks brothers got the white tie ensemble all wrong? Now this??

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...LACK&sort_by=&sectioncolor=&sectionsize=#null


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Don't they have a blog somewhere where they answer questions? I couldn't find a link on their site for "contact us".


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

The only problem is the bottom button fastened. I don't like the Windsor knot, but it's not wrong.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Tie is wrong colour?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Matt S said:


> The only problem is the bottom button fastened


I'm with Matt on this one.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

It's the bottom button. BB is supposed to be the "go to" place for proper dress. How many young guys will now tell their dads "See, if it's on the Brooks Brothers web site it has to be correct..."


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## statboy (Sep 1, 2010)

The windsor knot is wrong too, since the mannequin is not a former or current NFL player.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

That could very well be a half-windsor, of which I wear daily (and I am not a former nor current NFL player, and do not meet said demographic either). 

I doubt a positive (if any) response to this, but MANY on the VMAs had their bottom buttons fastened, and my g/f remarks 'why don't you wear your suits more tailored, they seem so boxy', and thus ensues the argument that a pull at the button is a sign of an improper fitting suit, and she reminds me of her degree and career in fashion (women's), to which I remind her she knows ZERO about men's dress, and that I couldn't care less about fashion; I dress with goal of timeless style. 

Then, she simply tells me to defer to whatever Tom Ford is wearing. Black suit (honey, that's improper outside of formal wear), white shirt; no tie, no pocket square. Yuck.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Then, she simply tells me to defer to whatever Tom Ford is wearing. Black suit (honey, that's improper outside of formal wear), white shirt; no tie, no pocket square. Yuck.


Here's a rare example of something else, a charcoal suit:

And he gets black tie right.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

Is it just me, or does that look fairly awful? The top button looks ready to pop and the bottom button looks like it can't be buttoned at all, should he so desire.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> That could very well be a half-windsor, of which I wear daily (and I am not a former nor current NFL player, and do not meet said demographic either).
> 
> I doubt a positive (if any) response to this, but MANY on the VMAs had their bottom buttons fastened, and my g/f remarks 'why don't you wear your suits more tailored, they seem so boxy', and thus ensues the argument that a pull at the button is a sign of an improper fitting suit, and she reminds me of her degree and career in fashion (women's), to which I remind her she knows ZERO about men's dress, and that I couldn't care less about fashion; I dress with goal of timeless style.
> 
> Then, she simply tells me to defer to whatever Tom Ford is wearing. Black suit (honey, that's improper outside of formal wear), white shirt; no tie, no pocket square. Yuck.


Will she accept a copy of Flusser's book as a present?


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Matt S said:


> Here's a rare example of something else, a charcoal suit:
> 
> And he gets black tie right.


Matt, I noted the color difference between his tie and suit, but are you certain that is charcoal? Still looks black to me. His black tie does always seem correct, and curiously enough, the g/f loves my black tie rig. What she doesn't seem to notice is that it is tailored identically to two other WOA suits she sees on me frequently, that she considers 'boxy'.



Belfaborac said:


> Is it just me, or does that look fairly awful? The top button looks ready to pop and the bottom button looks like it can't be buttoned at all, should he so desire.


I echo these sentiments that he looks AWFUL with such a tight jacket. Belfaborac: the 'riddle' for buttoning men's suit coats goes like this: "sometimes, always, NEVER". That is, you sometimes button the top of a 3 button suit; you ALWAYS button the middle button of a three button, or top of a two button; and you NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER button the bottom button.

It looks like he can't button the bottom because he can't, and the jacket (as most aren't) isn't cut to allow for buttoning of the bottom button.



arkirshner said:


> Will she accept a copy of Flusser's book as a present?


Yes, but the question becomes: 'Will she read it?' Which book? Dressing the man? Great idea, sir, thank you!


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

And is it just me, or do those pocket flaps look HUGE??


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Belfaborac said:


> Is it just me, or does that look fairly awful? The top button looks ready to pop and the bottom button looks like it can't be buttoned at all, should he so desire.


It's not you, the suit is too tight at the top button (definitely pulling) and the cut is wrong for the lower button.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

mrp said:


> It's not you,....


Phew, that's a relief then.

TheGreatTwizz: I'm aware of the "riddle" as you call it, although I don't subscribe to the utter rigidity with which it is preached by many.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Belfaborac said:


> Phew, that's a relief then.
> 
> TheGreatTwizz: I'm aware of the "riddle" as you call it, although I don't subscribe to the utter rigidity with which it is preached by many.


This is one of those instances where utter rigidity is not only form, but wholly function as well. No tailor will ever tailor a jacket with the bottom button buttoned, and you would be hard pressed to find anything OTR that is cut with the intention of having that button buttoned. Period.

Buttoning that button throws off the form and balance of the jacket and creates unsightly lines. It is there for decoration only.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Yes, but the question becomes: 'Will she read it?' Which book? Dressing the man? Great idea, sir, thank you!


Well, it does have a lot of pictures.

Try some thing like:

I want you to know I appreciate your degree in women's fashion, and I know you had to study a lot and work hard to get your degree, and I know there are a lot of books on the subject and your professors could fill in what the book didn't cover.

It's a bit different with men's clothes, maybe because most of us are slobs anyway, but there really aren't programs in men's clothes like the one you went through and so if we want to learn about traditional men's clothes we pretty much have to have it passed down from our fathers or get it from books.

You know I'm in a profession where we have to dress up and dress conservatively and because my boss
cares about it I take it seriously. And I'm expected to follow a certain traditional look and this book is the leading book on the subject and something I refer to. Now I don't pretend I can explain this as well as Flusser but I want you to know why I dress the way I do. So I got it for you so you can see what makes me tick. Besides I really appreciate your ability to mix colors and patterns and in here there is a little section about mixing patterns and I'd like to see what you think about it

This suggestion comes with no warranties, express or implied. Results may vary.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

I found the Brooks blog and asked the following question.

Why does the 2 button Golden Fleece Fitzgerald MK00066 have both buttons buttoned? Is it a new Style?


Will post the reply, if any.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> This is one of those instances where utter rigidity is not only form, but wholly function as well.


While I didn't really mean to address suits, but rather blazers and sport coats when I said "utter rigidity", let me ask you this, if I may:

Let us imagine you one day see a man in a suit, with his jacket buttoned from top to bottom and yet entirely without any unsightly lines and with an excellent fit in all regards. Will you then be able to admit that said fine fellow looks good, or will you proceed to wrinkle your nose, turn it up and write him off sartorially on account of a buttoned button?

If your answer is affirmative in regards to the latter, then basically you're the kind of person I was thinking about and whose rigidity of thought I find objectionable.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Matt S said:


> Here's a rare example of something else, a charcoal suit:
> 
> And he gets black tie right.


He could be mistaken for a pall-bearer in certain places, like the UK.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Belfaborac said:


> While I didn't really mean to address suits, but rather blazers and sport coats when I said "utter rigidity", let me ask you this, if I may:
> 
> Let us imagine you one day see a man in a suit, with his jacket buttoned from top to bottom and yet entirely without any unsightly lines and with an excellent fit in all regards. Will you then be able to admit that said fine fellow looks good, or will you proceed to wrinkle your nose, turn it up and write him off sartorially on account of a buttoned button?
> 
> If your answer is affirmative in regards to the latter, then basically you're the kind of person I was thinking about and whose rigidity of thought I find objectionable.


I have yet to see a man as described above. For this to happen, they would either need a suit meant to be buttoned that way (like JKF and the Duke of Windsor had made for them, with a higher button stance-about an inch or two higher than the Fitzgerald suit) or an oddly shaped body. If the button stance were as low as the suit in question and it is meant to button at the bottom without pulling, that is a poorly designed suit. It would have to have quite a full skirt for it not to restrict movement. And you wouldn't be able to sit down with it buttoned. It's not just about tradition; there are legitimate reasons for not buttoning a suit jacket below the waist.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

arkirshner said:


> Try some thing like:
> 
> I want you to know I appreciate your degree in women's fashion, and I know you had to study a lot and work hard to get your degree, and I know there are a lot of books on the subject and your professors could fill in what the book didn't cover.
> 
> ...


Exceptional advice sir, and thank you for that. My dilemma lies in a few of the things there, but I'm sure with some thought, I can work it out. When I say fashion degree and career in fashion, I mean it (FIT for school; runs a very exclusive, high-end boutique where black cards are seen daily). I must, sadly, admit that I have never read Flusser's book, and my style was something I developed on my own from common sense, inherent good taste (to the point I am routinely asked if I'm gay), and due diligence. AAAC hasn't necessarily changed my style, but helped me learn what is and isn't appropriate, and, most importantly, the importance of fit. No father to show me, and my grandfather was a union electrician his whole life; I'm the one that dresses him for events that require it.

Further, the argument of 'You know I'm in a profession where we have to dress up and dress conservatively and because my boss cares about it I take it seriously. And I'm expected to follow a certain traditional look..." doesn't hold water. She knows that I am the only one who wears a suit and tie daily, and knows that I could dress to the level of other employees in khakis and a polo. I wear a suit and tie as a conscious choice not only because I choose to present myself in the best possible light at all times, but also because I am at the top of my field in my industry, and feel I should dress according to the level of performance I deliver on a daily basis. And, well, let's just admit it: we all like to play dress up. That said, I have some very dandy tendencies, and conservatism is not always at the forefront. Today, I'm in a charocal suit with a very faint blue windowpane, FC shirt with pink/burgundy striped shirt, russian calf cufflinks set in sterling (thanks Chris!!!), brown/pink floral tie, solid pink silk PS, and brown shell strands (the last time I tabulated dandy points in this suit, I was in the 80s in what I thought was a VERY conservative look; this probably cracks 100). A co-worker who always appreciates my dress told me I was too conservative today, and went on to request seersucker for tomorrow.

Her issue is that I take my style cues (in terms of fit/cut) from the 30's/40's with high rise trousers, braces, full breaks on the pants, and, god forbid, a pocket square. You should have heard her when I showed up Saturday in a fedora and my Burberry's trench (complete Inspector Gadget style). She feels I should not only dress in more modern 'fashion', but more age appropriate (I'm in my 20's, and dress like I'm at least twice, if not thrice, my age). She will let my argument of seasonal fashion versus timeless style stand, but still thinks I dress like I'm older than I am. Well, I do because my career level is at least 10-15 years ahead of my age, and I conduct myself in such a manner. Her take seems to be that she'd prefer me in fashionista casual (see any recent Ralph Lauren ad in a fashion mag) instead of suit/tie. My guess is she doesn't truly realize my career level, and I can't figure out how to explain it to her without sounding pompous and self aggrandizing.

If we go out after work, she demands I remove my tie, and we'll get into minor arguments over the presence of my pocket square. The PS is one she is slowing coming around on, as her statement was 'nobody wears one', and then every time she looks, there's a square in the jacket pocket. She went so far as to tell me to have a blazer made MTM without the pocket so I wouldn't try to stuff a square in it. I nearly want to have a blazer made MTM with TWO breast pockets so I can wear two of them.......



Matt S said:


> I have yet to see a man as described above. For this to happen, they would either need a suit meant to be buttoned that way (like JKF and the Duke of Windsor had made for them, with a higher button stance-about an inch or two higher than the Fitzgerald suit) or an oddly shaped body. If the button stance were as low as the suit in question and it is meant to button at the bottom without pulling, that is a poorly designed suit. It would have to have quite a full skirt for it not to restrict movement. And you wouldn't be able to sit down with it buttoned. It's not just about tradition; there are legitimate reasons for not buttoning a suit jacket below the waist.


+1

Belfaborac, this wholly sums up the argument.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Show your wife this guy, Matt Bomer, the most popular man on cable television right now:










He wears ties, pockets squares and fedoras.

I thought pocket squares were very fashionable right now. Your wife is outdated on that one. A jacket without a breast pocket would bring you back to the 60s (Patrick Macnee on The Avengers). There's your argument for that one.


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## DaveTrader (Jun 11, 2011)

dks202 said:


> How many young guys will now tell their dads "See, if it's on the Brooks Brothers web site it has to be correct..."


Not a single one would be my guess.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm a big fan of Neil Caffery, and always find interesting the stark contrast (to those with the eye like us AAAC folks) between his dress and that of 'suit'. Suit always seems to be in standard BB fare, and his stuff is impeccably tailored. Nearly too well dressed for a fed, but he keeps the shirts/ties plain enough that he manages. My biggest issue with Neil's dress is that some of his jackets are too tight, and I am not a fan of tie bars. The photo you post is interesting to me, as I just had an MTM suit delivered with that same pad stitch on the lapel (was supposed to be an edge pick stitch) that I had to ask my tailor to take an hour and remove. Looks good on him, looked like crap on me.

I'll get her to watch this, but am not sure of her take. FWIW, the contrast with my style is that I don't wear 'slim' anything. Think roaring 20's, not Mad Men 50's. I don't like the look of it, nor am I comfortable in it (5'11"; 190lbs). You'll never see me in a OCBD, slim tie, or jacket with slim lapels. I prefer a wide(r) lapel, wide ties, and forward pleat pants with wide legs.

Matt, I agree, the PS has come very much back into fashion, and our 'discussion' led to her looking at them, seeing most men wearing one, thus she's allowed me to keep it while making me doff the tie, which, in the grand scheme of things (spending the evening dining on a sidewalk in a psedo-beach town), isn't so bad. I told her she doesn't get all my silk, at least one piece must stay, and the braces don't count!



Matt S said:


> Show your wife this guy, Matt Bomer, the most popular man on cable television right now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

If it was good enough for Anthony Eden, it's good enough for me.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Finian McLonergan said:


> If it was good enough for Anthony Eden, it's good enough for me.


Am I the only one who finds those pockets set a little low?


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Am I the only one who finds those pockets set a little low?


It's probably because you're used to seeing the top of pockets roughly aligned with the lower button. In this case Eden has raised the button stances of both buttons to facilitate the simultaneous buttoning of both.
The POW also liked this configuration in casual jackets but artfully got around the low pocket stance issue by specifying crescent pockets. 









And the chappie on the right of this photo (Edward "Fruity" Metcalfe, the prince's equerry) opted for patch pockets










Note how the top and bottom buttons straddle the natural waist and are a little closer together than would be the case on a conventional jacket.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

And from over the pond:


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## Bottom Button Done Up (Aug 13, 2011)

Of course the bottom button is done up; a jacket looks bloody awful and sycophantic with bottom button undone - thus my name.


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## Rory Duffy (Aug 14, 2011)

The reason i believe that is behind the un-buttoned lower button, is because of the cut.
When I draft a jacket pattern the the top is located above the waist line, where the front edge meet the break line of lapel, this the widest place on the jacket front. The second button is located 4" below with the edge cutting back to a round. The second button isn't usually cut to close as the front edge is not a straight line.

Same reason behind three buttons, the top button over laps further, so in bespoke, the edge is belled at the middle button and cuts away 1/4" to the top buton.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Bottom Button Done Up said:


> Of course the bottom button is done up; a jacket looks bloody awful and sycophantic with bottom button undone - thus my name.


So do you button the bottom button on suits that aren't meant too, thus causing it to pull across the skirt and open at the vents? Or do you have your jackets made up in the style of Anthony Eden and the Prince of Wales?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

arkirshner said:


> I found the Brooks blog and asked the following question.
> 
> Why does the 2 button Golden Fleece Fitzgerald MK00066 have both buttons buttoned? Is it a new Style?
> 
> Will post the reply, if any.


Day two. No answer.


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## Bottom Button Done Up (Aug 13, 2011)

Matt S said:


> So do you button the bottom button on suits that aren't meant too, thus causing it to pull across the skirt and open at the vents? Or do you have your jackets made up in the style of Anthony Eden and the Prince of Wales?


I don't buy jackets where the bottom button is not meant to be done up. I also mainly wear double breasted jackets.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

arkirshner said:


> Day two. No answer.


Allow me:

OP: No, it is not a new style, just some new photographer or stylist at BB (almost certainly a female) that doesn't know any better.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Certain two button coats can be fastened. Most of them can (and are advised to) have the bottom button left rakishly undone. I'd also say that, contrary to the man who inspired the Fitzgerald suit, anyone who owns one should do the latter. It's also the same reason I don't use the inside button of a double breasted suit -- less to fasten and unfasten when standing up and sitting down.

On other hand, I've sometimes flipped up my collar and buttoned all the way when there's a cold wind...


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Bottom Button Done Up said:


> I don't buy jackets where the bottom button is not meant to be done up. I also mainly wear double breasted jackets.


So then your comment wouldn't apply to the suit in the original post, since that suit will not close neatly at the bottom when it's on someone's body. Here's what it looks like on a person:

With double-breasted suits it's perfectly fine to button at the bottom, as Prince Charles does. The front quarters don't spread apart like on a single-breasted suit. But I leave the bottom open on a double-breasted suit because it really isn't comfortable when sitting down if the bottom is closed. And it causes more wrinkling too. The Royal Navy uniform is a better example of a double-breasted jacket buttoned all the way that can still be comfortable sitting down since the bottom button is much higher than on a suit.

The only case I could see where buttoning the bottom on a regular single-breasted suit not causing pulling would be what I believe is a short front balance. It's the mark of a poor fit, but the lower front would close up.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Jovan said:


> It's also the same reason I don't use the inside button of a double breasted suit -- less to fasten and unfasten when standing up and sitting down.
> 
> On other hand, I've sometimes flipped up my collar and buttoned all the way when there's a cold wind...


Jovan, you certainly don't button and unbutton a double breasted when sitting and standing, do you???

I'll admit to routinely flipping up the collar of my overcoat in a harsh wind when the scarf simply won't do the job.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

For me it's always been about the height of the button stance, and whether or not the jacket cuts away under the button at the waist. regardless of modern rules, if the jacket doesn't cut away, then you should take no guff for buttoning that button. But the Fitzgerald from my recollection has a cutaway, and Brooks Brothers in general, from my recollection, has always been a stickler for not buttoning any bottom buttons on suit or sport jackets.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Jovan, you certainly don't button and unbutton a double breasted when sitting and standing, do you???
> 
> I'll admit to routinely flipping up the collar of my overcoat in a harsh wind when the scarf simply won't do the job.


I certainly do, though not in that respective order. Are you saying I'm wrong, sonny? :cool2:


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## Bottom Button Done Up (Aug 13, 2011)

Matt S said:


> So then your comment wouldn't apply to the suit in the original post, since that suit will not close neatly at the bottom when it's on someone's body. Here's what it looks like on a person:
> 
> With double-breasted suits it's perfectly fine to button at the bottom, as Prince Charles does. The front quarters don't spread apart like on a single-breasted suit. But I leave the bottom open on a double-breasted suit because it really isn't comfortable when sitting down if the bottom is closed. And it causes more wrinkling too. The Royal Navy uniform is a better example of a double-breasted jacket buttoned all the way that can still be comfortable sitting down since the bottom button is much higher than on a suit.
> 
> The only case I could see where buttoning the bottom on a regular single-breasted suit not causing pulling would be what I believe is a short front balance. It's the mark of a poor fit, but the lower front would close up.


I suppose what I was trying to say was: the thing that was wrong with the picture was that the jacket was where the bottom button isn't meant to be done up.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

arkirshner said:


> I found the Brooks blog and asked the following question.
> 
> Why does the 2 button Golden Fleece Fitzgerald MK00066 have both buttons buttoned? Is it a new Style?
> 
> Will post the reply, if any.


Day three, no answer.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> That could very well be a half-windsor, of which I wear daily (and I am not a former nor current NFL player, and do not meet said demographic either).
> 
> I doubt a positive (if any) response to this, but MANY on the VMAs had their bottom buttons fastened, and my g/f remarks 'why don't you wear your suits more tailored, they seem so boxy', and thus ensues the argument that a pull at the button is a sign of an improper fitting suit, and she reminds me of her degree and career in fashion (women's), to which I remind her she knows ZERO about men's dress, and that I couldn't care less about fashion; I dress with goal of timeless style.
> 
> Then, she simply tells me to defer to whatever Tom Ford is wearing. Black suit (honey, that's improper outside of formal wear), white shirt; no tie, no pocket square. Yuck.


right twizz blacks for, full dress, dinner suits, and funeral suits. 
black pants are for, waiters, buss boys, and washroom attendants.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

Matt S said:


> Here's a rare example of something else, a charcoal suit:
> 
> And he gets black tie right.


the fore part is too narrow and flat without any shaping. thats why it pulls at the button, and breaks at the sides.they tried to make a shaped waist by just making it tight. it takes tailoring.
the hip area is way too tight. that does not make it slim, just makes it tight. 
look at the huge pocket flaps, they look like awnings.
unless he is holding his arms oddly the left sleeve is a bit too long.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> And is it just me, or do those pocket flaps look HUGE??


just got down to your post now. yes you are right.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Jovan, you certainly don't button and unbutton a double breasted when sitting and standing, do you???
> 
> I'll admit to routinely flipping up the collar of my overcoat in a harsh wind when the scarf simply won't do the job.


twizz do you have a storm button on the right side? it should be where the left lapel button hole is when the left lapel flips over to the right. very use full in bad weather.


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> And is it just me, or do those pocket flaps look HUGE??


You and a tailor are right; they're pretty wide, but then again so are the lapels. They both need to be wide to balance each other out. Tom Ford's styling definitely strikes a "f*** you" chord. Dodgy fit aside, it manages to remain somewhat tasteful and acceptable. That said, the trousers, however well made, are usually unacceptably tight and have far too short a rise.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

arkirshner said:


> Day three, no answer.


Betcha the pic will be removed then changed real soon.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Jovan said:


> I certainly do, though not in that respective order. Are you saying I'm wrong, sonny? :cool2:


Well, not exactly wrong, but.....conventional wisdom (it's well published) that a DB needn't be unbuttoned when sitting. It is perfectly proper to leave it buttoned from morning till night, unless removed for bathroom/bedroom activities.



a tailor said:


> right twizz blacks for, full dress, dinner suits, and funeral suits.
> black pants are for, waiters, buss boys, and washroom attendants.


Yet, I somehow managed to appease the g/f and wear a black herringbone suit with a white shirt (open collar, no tie), and TV fold white PS to meet her parents for the first time. While I wasn't happy with my attire, she was please (albeit complaining I was overdressed...)

Also, for the storm flap, no, the overcoats I flip up don't have that (I'm referring to a wool/cashmere HF in grey herringbone and a navy cashmere HF; both are standard three buttons). The trench, however, does have that.



Benjamin E. said:


> You and a tailor are right; they're pretty wide, but then again so are the lapels. They both need to be wide to balance each other out. Tom Ford's styling definitely strikes a "f*** you" chord. Dodgy fit aside, it manages to remain somewhat tasteful and acceptable. That said, the trousers, however well made, are usually unacceptably tight and have far too short a rise.


I don't find the need for the flaps to be wide to compensate for the wide lapel....I do, however, really like that lapel


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Yet, I somehow managed to appease the g/f and wear a black herringbone suit with a white shirt (open collar, no tie), and TV fold white PS to meet her parents for the first time. While I wasn't happy with my attire, she was please (*albeit complaining I was overdressed*...)


Just wondering if you may have favoured a sports jacket instead, or did you want to wear a suit? It is sometimes said of me that I may be overdressed, though people who generally note this mean it more positively than negatively. (I wouldn't say I was particularly overdress, though, it is just that the people I'm with are very much underdressed.)


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Jake Genezen said:


> Just wondering if you may have favoured a sports jacket instead, or did you want to wear a suit? It is sometimes said of me that I may be overdressed, though people who generally note this mean it more positively than negatively. (I wouldn't say I was particularly overdress, though, it is just that the people I'm with are very much underdressed.)


She would hold the sport coat in the same regard as what I wore; with her, there isn't a distinction in the formality of the jacket. Its presence alone is enough for her to think I'm 'overdressed'. She actually suggested I remove my jacket at dinner....HAHAHAHA!!!!!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Well, not exactly wrong, but.....conventional wisdom (it's well published) that a DB needn't be unbuttoned when sitting. It is perfectly proper to leave it buttoned from morning till night, unless removed for bathroom/bedroom activities.


For something that you say is conventional wisdom and well published I have never heard of this before from anywhere.

No offence, but I'll stick to what I'm doing since it makes more sense and is more comfortable.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Jovan said:


> For something that you say is conventional wisdom and well published I have never heard of this before from anywhere.
> 
> No offence, but I'll stick to what I'm doing since it makes more sense and is more comfortable.


Encyclopedia?

Anyone care to weigh in on the 'don't undo a DB when sitting?'


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Just seems a little silly to change up the rules according to SB and DB.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Encyclopedia?
> 
> Anyone care to weigh in on the 'don't undo a DB when sitting?'


The way I gather it, a DB looks sloppier when open. And unbuttoning and buttoning the jigger button (if used) is awkward. To me it seems like playing with your underwear. When sitting and standing, unbuttoning and buttoning more than one button looks to much like dressing and undressing, even if you like to fasten the top two buttons on a 3-button suit. If you have to play with more than one button, just leave them all closed. And if the suit fits well (and is vented), sitting with it buttoned shouldn't be a problem. The only problem comes if you like to fasten the bottom button, which is a problem if you do. Then it makes sitting very uncomfortable.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I only use one button and don't bother with the jigger thingymabobber. One _can_ sit with it buttoned, but that goes for single breasted coats as well. I choose to unbutton mine when sitting as it's more comfortable and doesn't take any more effort to do so. Far as I can find, there's no general consensus on the matter and both are acceptable. In other words, it's a personal choice.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Jovan said:


> I only use one button and don't bother with the jigger thingymabobber.


I have a DB shawl collar dinner jacket from the 90s that doesn't have a jigger. It doesn't feel as neat without the jigger, but I'm not sure if I want to sew one in either. Why don't you like them? Do you know when they became standard in DB jackets? I doubt the Duke of Windsor had or used a jigger button.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

All I know is that, at some point, all double breasted coats functioned like a pea coat; they could be buttoned both ways. This is why you'll often find vintage double breasted suits on eBay buttoned on the ladies' side in photographs. Presumably the women listing them either don't know any better or did it without a second thought.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Jovan said:


> This is why you'll often find vintage double breasted suits on eBay buttoned on the ladies' side in photographs. Presumably the women listing them either don't know any better or did it without a second thought.


I see it done with modern double-breasted jackets too. Only one of my 4 double-breasted suits can't be buttoned both ways. The one that can't technically can, but it would be missing the lower buttonhole. I always ask to see a picture with the jacket the right side out when they button it this way, in case they are trying to hide something by buttoning it backwards and they don't think it matters.


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

Matt S said:


> I see it done with modern double-breasted jackets too. Only one of my 4 double-breasted suits can't be buttoned both ways. The one that can't technically can, but it would be missing the lower buttonhole. I always ask to see a picture with the jacket the right side out when they button it this way, in case they are trying to hide something by buttoning it backwards and they don't think it matters.


My dad has an old Chester Barrie odd jacket that has 2 buttonholes on the inside as well as the outside. I have a newer one that just has one on the inside.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Interesting.

Matt, I don't dislike the jigger button (sorry for the double negative) but simply choose not to use it because of the reasons you've stated against fastening and unfastening more than one button.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Nearly every 2 even 3 button jackets at LL Bean are completely buttoned.

Now it's a trend!!

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/605?nav=ln-26

Neither appear to be paddock jackets.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Nearly all of those would benefit from unfastening the bottom. They aren't cut for fastening all the buttons.


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