# Hats for formal wear?



## timmbbo (Sep 1, 2003)

What sort of hats, if any, go with formal wear? The only answer I can think of is the top hat, and maybe the stove pipe hat. Any other possibilities besides these?


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## larsrindsig (Dec 31, 2006)

For formal wear, that is white tie, I should say a topper is the only option. Unless you are a Dr Seuss character, of course, in which case the stove pipe is a distinct possibility.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Are you talking about daytime or evening full dress? And are you also including hats relevant to day and/or evening semi-formal dress?


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## Lookingforaclue (Nov 10, 2005)

Top hat if wearing tails, classically, or a homburg if wearing a tuxedo.

However, I would wear a homburg with tails especially if wearing a topcoat, and the old rules of etiquette specified that you always wore a topcoat over tails out of doors, even in the summer.

I guess a top hat would be the most correct with a cutaway, but homburgs can be worn.

SRW


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

Homburgs aside, there's a bit of precedent for a bowler with semi-formal wear. A black bowler with a stroller for business is kosher, but there's also this intriguing photo of a bowler with black tie:
https://www.blacktieguide.com/History/19th_Century/1912_BT_WT_ver2_NYPL_trimmed2.jpg
I will admit to doing it once, when I was younger. I would also think that a black fedora could substitute for a homburg in a pinch.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

*How about one of these rascals?*

Only in black. I *love* this hat! My favorite homburg. Beautiful old-world shape.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Homburg is unsuitable for formal wear (morning dress and white tie I mean). Only a topper will do.

https://charlesrupertdomeki.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/guide-to-buying-a-top-hat/

An inferior topper makes you look like you're in fancy dress.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> An inferior topper makes you look like you're in fancy dress.


In America, I'm afraid that even the finest antique silk topper _is_ fancy (meaning costume) dress. No man of taste has earnestly worn a top hat in America in my lifetime, I'm afraid. It's a shame, but it's also the truth. We have no Ascot royal paddock to keep that item alive.


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

CuffDaddy said:


> In America, I'm afraid that even the finest antique silk topper _is_ fancy (meaning costume) dress. No man of taste has earnestly worn a top hat in America in my lifetime, I'm afraid. It's a shame, but it's also the truth. We have no Ascot royal paddock to keep that item alive.


This is a very broad statement. The few in America who get married in a morning coat might wear a top hat. I see no reason not to where one as well if you have an occasion to wear the rare white tie.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

CuffDaddy said:


> In America, I'm afraid that even the finest antique silk topper _is_ fancy (meaning costume) dress. No man of taste has earnestly worn a top hat in America in my lifetime, I'm afraid. It's a shame, but it's also the truth. We have no Ascot royal paddock to keep that item alive.


Create an event/society to wear it at!


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

anglophile23 said:


> This is a very broad statement. The few in America who get married in a morning coat might wear a top hat. I see no reason not to where one as well if you have an occasion to wear the rare white tie.


I was married in a morning coat. It was not an unusual or remarkable choice. If I had added a top hat, I would have been giggled at.

I'm sorry that this is the case, but it's a fact. There is no practical distinction between wearing a top hat and a tricorn hat in America - they are both hats that _used _to be popular, and now are costume.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Create an event/society to wear it at!


I think I'll do a spats society, first.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Whether or not . . .*

. . . one chooses to wear a hat at all, or does not in order not to be giggled at, the proper hat for formal attire is, as has been noted, a top hat. By that I do not mean the felt travesties that truly are a costume item. A real top hat.

President Kennedy, who has been maligned with responsibility for the death of the hat in the U. S., was the last president, I believe, to wear a top hat at his inaugural.

As for semi-formal/tuxedo, I wear a black homburg. Unfortunately, it seldom gets cold enough to justify wearing it here in Lala Land.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

My personal list:

Evening tail coat - black silk plush top hat or collapsible top hat (Gibus)
Dinner jacket - Top hat (at a stretch), homburg, black fedora, [straw boater]

frock coat - black silk plush top hat
Morning tail coat - black silk plush top hat, grey felt top hat
Black lounge with striped trousers - Bowler, homburg, black fedora

Lounge suit - fedora, homburg


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Blueboy1938 said:


> President Kennedy, who has been maligned with responsibility for the death of the hat in the U. S., was the last president, I believe, to wear a top hat at his inaugural.


And this says a very great deal about the current viability of the top hat in America.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

A 1969 book from the editors of Esquire magazine "Esquire Good Groom for Men" prescribes the following hats for formal and semi-formal wear:

Formal Evening ("White Tie"): "High silk or collapsible opera. Also correct: black or midnight-blue homburg, silk-faced under the brim."

Semi-Formal Evening ("Black Tie"): "Dark homburg or snap-brim. Derby also correct. Summer: natural or black panama; sennit." [I don't even know what a "sennit" is!]

Formal Daytime ("Morning Dress"): "High silk topper."

Semi-Formal Daytime ("Stroller"): "Black homburg."

I would agree with the poster who stated that the topper has now passed into the same category as the tricorn. I wore morning attire for my second wedding, but no topper.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> A 1969 book from the editors of Esquire magazine "Esquire Good Groom for Men" prescribes the following hats for formal and semi-formal wear:
> 
> Formal Evening ("White Tie"): "High silk or collapsible opera. Also correct: black or midnight-blue homburg, silk-faced under the brim."
> 
> ...


I believe a sennit is another name for a straw boater, and may be named after Max Sennit who featured them in his silent comedies.

I also have that book, though mine was purchased in and copyrighted '68.

The only time I've seen top hats in recent history is for some diplomatic ceremonies of state. I believe I recall fairly recent photos of U.S. D.O.S. in them, and have also seen their UK counterparts wearing them as well.


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

I had forgotten the straw boater with the white jacket, a fine summer look if ever there was one. Glad to see the bowler vindicated.


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## Cottonshirt (Mar 15, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> I believe a sennit is another name for a straw boater, and may be named after Max Sennit who featured them in his silent comedies.


Seems a reasonable guess, but the was an item of British Naval Uniform from before Max Sennit was born, and so is not named after him.

It was a stiff hat made of braided and coiled straw with a flat crown and brim. This type of straw hat worn by naval seamen during the 19th century finally disappeared in 1921. Extremely detailed uniform regulations described each item of rating's kit and the occasions on which it should be worn. Sennit hats were worn with blue uniform in summer, weather permitting but not at sea unless required as protection from the sun.

It seems the name itself comes from Sennit work, a type of plaiting used to make decorative rope items on ships, and the same technique was used to make the hats.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

re: Sennit - thank you for this, I had always wondered! The Apparel Arts/Esquire illustrations I have seen use the term to describe what appears to be a standard boater, so perhaps the term had metamorphosed in American use to describe the manner of making, rather than the style of hat.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Well, it maybe in the realms of a tricorne in America but thankfully in Britain, it is _de rigueur_ for morning dress with Ascot and investitures being the main things keeping it alive and well. White tie top hatting is becoming a dying breed I'm sad to say but if Fred Astaire can wear one without looking odd, it's good enough for me with my peers of the likeminded (and his songs won't make any sense if you exclude the topper).

In regards to whether to wear a topper or not for formal wear, I follow the Cambridge University rule in regards to the wearing of mortarboards for undergraduates: either wear it or wear nothing else.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

CuffDaddy said:


> In America, I'm afraid that even the finest antique silk topper _is_ fancy (meaning costume) dress. No man of taste has earnestly worn a top hat in America in my lifetime, I'm afraid. It's a shame, but it's also the truth. We have no Ascot royal paddock to keep that item alive.


Wrong. They are worn every year at Harvard's Commencement.


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## Sean1982 (Sep 7, 2009)

Although it is of course correct and proper to wear a top hat with morning dress, I decided to wear my black Homburg with morning dress (black non-shiny tie and black waistcoat, with a black morning coat, plain white double cuff shirt) at my Grandmother's funeral (obviously, not wearing the hat in the church), as it looked less showy than the topper (it was not a full morning dress funeral, but as a chief mourner, I wore what Grandma would have wanted. She loved smartly dressed chaps). Seemed like the right choice on the day.

Charlie, where do you wear white tie? I have the full rig, but have only worn it out once!

With black tie I would never wear a fedora, it looks awful in my view, only a homburg, a panama or boater for me (and have worn all three with black tie this year alone). I also wear the boater instead of my black or grey Homburg, various fedoras, or Panama on festive or capricious occasions with a three piece suit in the summer months.

Is a Homburg really correct with white tie? I think not personally. Only a black topper.

A bowler would do with business style morning dress (as City men of the past, or town clerks, usually black waistcoats and ties with standard black jackets, not morning coats), but not festive/full morning dress. I wouldn't have worn my bowler to the funeral mentioned above either, too business (and anyway, I was in a proper morning coat).

Sean


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Sean1982 said:


> Charlie, where do you wear white tie? I have the full rig, but have only worn it out once!
> 
> Sean


If you join a society like The New Sheridan Club (like I did myself) there are some opportunities and events during the year when one can wear white tie.

A homburg can be worn with morning dress but that was during the period when morning dress was considered informal wear.


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

Sean1982 said:


> With black tie I would never wear a fedora, it looks awful in my view, only a homburg, a panama or boater for me (and have worn all three with black tie this year alone).


Wait, so a fedora looks awful, but a panama hat is kosher?



Sean1982 said:


> A bowler would do with business style morning dress (as City men of the past, or town clerks, usually black waistcoats and ties with standard black jackets, not morning coats), but not festive/full morning dress. I wouldn't have worn my bowler to the funeral mentioned above either, too business (and anyway, I was in a proper morning coat).


I seem to remember a photo of a young Prince of Wales looking rather dapper in morning dress and a bowler.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Bogdanoff said:


> Wrong. They are worn every year at Harvard's Commencement.


Wow! I was unaware of the pracitce. By whom are they worn?

I should say, though, that the matter of academic dress is entirely different than formal dress, even where some elements overlap. Royal Ascot is a _social_ occassion, and thus can serve as a model for other social dress occassions. I'm not sure a commencement can do the equivalent.


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## Sean1982 (Sep 7, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> If you join a society like The New Sheridan Club (like I did myself) there are some opportunities and events during the year when one can wear white tie.


I'm now a member, so look forward to wearing my white tie again, sometime soon!


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Sean1982 said:


> I'm now a member, so look forward to wearing my white tie again, sometime soon!


I think the next op would be the Christmas Party and the Christmas Retreat.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

CuffDaddy said:


> Wow! I was unaware of the pracitce. By whom are they worn?
> 
> I should say, though, that the matter of academic dress is entirely different than formal dress, even where some elements overlap. Royal Ascot is a _social_ occassion, and thus can serve as a model for other social dress occassions. I'm not sure a commencement can do the equivalent.


They are worn by the marshals and stewards I think at Harvard. The Cambridge University Police and the former Oxford University Police follow similar practice.

Morning dress is rarely worn with academicals even though in theory it should be given that graduations maybe the only time in our lives when we move up a rank in society save an investiture. The Oxbridge practice is to wear a dark suit with white bowtie (and bands if in Cambridge). As to why, it may stem from earlier models. normal practice is to wear a normal suit.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

CuffDaddy said:


> Wow! I was unaware of the pracitce. By whom are they worn?
> 
> I should say, though, that the matter of academic dress is entirely different than formal dress, even where some elements overlap. Royal Ascot is a _social_ occassion, and thus can serve as a model for other social dress occassions. I'm not sure a commencement can do the equivalent.


Academic dress is worn by those who are receiving degrees or are active academics. (Formal academic dress, such as described by CC above, is not usual at Harvard events, save for Oxford and Cambridge degree holders who appear in subfusc (white tie, bands etc.) with their academic gown.

The prefered, and if you are high up, expected, mode for non-academic officials is morning dress and top hat.

In the first Harvard photo, the hat is being worn by the Mayor of Cambridge (wearing a suit). The man walking next to him in the orange tie is Senator Kerry.

Top hats are worn with morning dress by members of the Harvard Corporation and other officials who sit on stage during the ceremonies.

Top hats are also worn by alumni Class Marshals, who wear morning dress and white long ties.

In addition, a top hat is worn by the local County Sheriff, who also wears morning dress.

Obviously, top hats are not worn by those wearing academic dress, but appropriate academic caps are worn.


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## Art of Leadership (Sep 4, 2008)

Bog said:


> Wrong. They are worn every year at Harvard's Commencement.


And they look like utter buffoons, as do 90% of Ascot goers in their rented garb, as if they were wearing that stovepip hat which is deeper than a clowns pocket. Wrong height, wrong lining. They look like hotel doormen, or horse jockeys as they are the ones who wear them (female).

My classmate is staff at Harvard, and I tripped over some photos / video of the commencement, and was shocked. But it's not their fault there aren't enough "real" silk lined 6"+ bell curve top hats to go around, or for them to even know that a proper one should look that way. They buy off the rack, and it shows in their sloppy fitting morning suits.

You can tell which man in the photo has the proper hat. The one in front.


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> A 1969 book from the editors of Esquire magazine "Esquire Good Groom for Men" prescribes the following hats for formal and semi-formal wear:
> 
> Formal Evening ("White Tie"): "High silk or collapsible opera. Also correct: black or midnight-blue homburg, silk-faced under the brim."
> 
> ...


I have heard of the black homburg with silk-facing under the brim also being used for black tie. Does anyone know about this? Also, I've never seen a picture, but would love to see some shots of this type of hat. Anyone?

Mike


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

One former bastion of top hattery, where the practice held on until the late 1960s, is the Metropolitan Opera Club. The members came to see the top hat as, in the words of The Clash, "an invitation to robbery". Time magazine reported:



> Ever since last year, when one high-hatted member was mugged while en route to the opera, there has been the feeling that to wear a silk topper is to invite trouble.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Floatinjoe said:


> I have heard of the black homburg with silk-facing under the brim also being used for black tie. Does anyone know about this? Also, I've never seen a picture, but would love to see some shots of this type of hat. Anyone?
> 
> Mike


A normal homburg would do. I never heard the underbrim being faced with silk. As for photos, a simple google will produce plenty of results.


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

Charlie, I read about it once (and I think it was on this forum, but I can't find the thread). There was a link to an advertisement illustration from maybe the 1930s.

As for photos, I am plenty good on homburgs, I am looking for a pic or two of one with a silk underbrim.

Mike


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

I found a thread that talks about the homburg with the silk underside on the brim. I don't think this is the thread I was talking about, but it definitely is the hat. This was thread was posted at The Fedora Lounge. Take a look at this, it is called the Rathbone: 

If anyone knows of pictures of an actual hat made up like this, I'd love to see them.

Mike


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Flanderian said:


> I believe a sennit is another name for a straw boater, and may be named after Max Sennit who featured them in his silent comedies.


Actually, the famous director's name was Mack Sennett.

A bit of amusing family history involving him:

On day late in 1914, my grandfather came home to the house he and his wife were renting on Normandie Avenue a bit north of Santa Monica Boulevard. To his horror, he found the place swarming with police. He was sure something terrible had happened to his wife and infant son. However, he soon discovered that the "police" were the famous Keystone Kops. Mack Sennett had come to the door and asked my grandmother if he could use the house for filming. Since my grandfather was also in the movie business, she said, "Sure." That was the way things were done in the Hollywood of almost a century ago.

Shortly after that incident, my grandparents and their son moved into a house they built on Ardmore Avenue. I grew up in that house. Both of my grandparents died in that house, as did their son and one of their two daughters (my mother--she had been born in that house). It was quite wrenching for me sell off most of the old family belongings and the old place itself about 10 years ago.


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## ourkid (Nov 17, 2009)

Am I to assume it is no longer appropriate to wear a tricorn in public?


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## ourkid (Nov 17, 2009)

ourkid said:


> Am I to assume it is no longer appropriate to wear a tricorn in public?


Perhaps we should tell the Chelsea Pensioners they're out of touch with the modern world?


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

ourkid said:


> Am I to assume it is no longer appropriate to wear a tricorn in public?


It depends who you are and what you wear with it.


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## ourkid (Nov 17, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> It depends who you are and what you wear with it.


I'd be interested in understanding in what situations it might be considered appropriate...assuming one isn't a member of a military institution which continues to wear such clothing.

It seems to me to be a very practical design and perhaps the ideal way to channel rain water away from the eyes and down the back of a coat.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Coachmen to the Queen is one. As is the Lord Chancellor/Lord Chamberlain and the Lord Mayors. Has to be worn with livery/full ceremonial dress of course and in the appropriate occasions.


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## Grayson (Feb 29, 2008)

Can a thread be forcibly removed to the Trad section? :icon_smile_big:


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

ourkid said:


> Am I to assume it is no longer appropriate to wear a tricorn in public?


Tricorns are often worn by tourists in Boston, who obtain them from one of the souvenir shops. Tour guides in historic dress also wear them.


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## J. Andrew (Nov 19, 2009)

I'd say a tricorn would be down right fashion-forward in Colonial Williamsburg


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Chelsea pensioners in scarlet coats and tricorne hats at the Founder's Day parade in the Royal Hospital Chelsea


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

A bicorne.

The full-dress uniform of École Polytechnique of France.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

As festive wear with undress.


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## clothesboy (Sep 19, 2004)

CuffDaddy said:


> I think I'll do a spats society, first.


I wish to be a charter member. When is the first meeting?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

clothesboy said:


> I wish to be a charter member. When is the first meeting?


Just as soon as another 198 or so express a similar interest!


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## ourkid (Nov 17, 2009)

Make that 197!


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Make that 196.


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

Make that 195... anyone have good sources for spats?


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Floatinjoe said:


> Make that 195... anyone have good sources for spats?


Perhaps this guy could make up some custom spats in a simpler style:

https://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=38541138


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## digby_snaffles (May 18, 2009)

Bog said:


> A bicorne.
> 
> The full-dress uniform of École Polytechnique of France.


Quartermasters in the British Army also wear cocked hats when in full dress.

_*Household Cavalry (Blues & Royals) medical officer in cocked hat*_









_*Military Knights of Windsor*_









Also as Charles* mentioned academic dress...

_*Eton school boys attending the Garter Ceremony*_









*Well, for Charles and it gives me an opportunity to mention something aside from military dress.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

digby_snaffles said:


> Also as Charles* mentioned academic dress...
> 
> _*Eton school boys attending the Garter Ceremony*_
> 
> ...


Strictly speaking, it is Etonian 'subfusc' (uniform) rather than academical dress which is mostly restrict to gowns, hoods and caps. And by god aren't those ill fitting in the pic (standards must have hit rock bottom)...


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## digby_snaffles (May 18, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Strictly speaking, it is Etonian 'subfusc' (uniform) rather than academical dress which is mostly restrict to gowns, hoods and caps. And by god aren't those ill fitting in the pic (standards must have hit rock bottom)...


My God, that is subfusc isn't it? Eton schoolboys wear tailcoats don't they? In this case so poorly fitting that I mistook them (foolishly) for gowns.

A good friend was at Oxford and I always liked the tradition of subfisc but now I've become more sartorially aware I've realised in most cases it's badly executed.


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## DavidLeoThomas (Jan 18, 2010)

If you get 194 more, I'm in!


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## Art of Leadership (Sep 4, 2008)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> And by god aren't those ill fitting in the pic (standards must have hit rock bottom)...


Probably allowing for growth so they dob't have to keep buying new oens every year haha.

Also that was mentioned in an episode of Return to Cranford Christmas special when the kid was being fitted for his school clothes.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Art of Leadership said:


> Probably allowing for growth so they dob't have to keep buying new oens every year haha.
> 
> Also that was mentioned in an episode of Return to Cranford Christmas special when the kid was being fitted for his school clothes.


Well, there are better ways to do it properly. For one, the sleeves look too long so what is wrong with shortening them and then letting them out each year or two as the arms grow longer? Same with the trousers which seem to be worn too low (you can see a peek of white shirt between the trouser waistband and waistcoat hem). Seriously, if I were employed at Eton I'd be tsking and tutting and chasing the boys all day (not in _that _way I hasten to add!) demanding them to see the tailor! And if they can afford c. £30K each year for the fees then they can afford to have properly tailored garments!


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Herbert Hardy Cozens-Hardy, (1838-1920), Baron Cozens-Hardy of Letheringsett

Barratt Camera Portraits (n.d.), London, England, photographer


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

CuffDaddy said:


> I think I'll do a spats society, first.


High quality spats, now available, here:


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I seem to remember a photo posted some time ago (here or on another forum, I've forgotten) of a man wearing a mourning top hat with the very wide morning band that covers most of the sides of the crown. Can anyone repost it here for me please? I want to save it on my HD for future reference.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> I seem to remember a photo posted some time ago (here or on another forum, I've forgotten) of a man wearing a mourning top hat with the very wide morning band that covers most of the sides of the crown. Can anyone repost it here for me please? I want to save it on my HD for future reference.


See:


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Bog said:


> High quality spats, now available, here:


LOL @ the price


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Salieri said:


> LOL @ the price


Have you checked the price for spats at Lobb lately?


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Bog said:


> See:


Hmmm, no it's not that one.


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