# BB OCBD vs BB Black Fleece OCBD



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Recently I sold my unworn must-iron BB OCBDs to a guy in Europe since I never wore them and they were taking up space. Great shirts and I still have a couple that I did wear, but they are a bit too billowy and I have found with the traditional fit that the collars are too small and the torsos too big; I have found the same prob with other traditional cut American brand shirts such as Bean and Orvis. Since then I tried on the BB Black Fleece OCBDs and find the fit to be perfect and the detailing much more interesting than the regular BB OCBDs and won't be going back to them, so to speak. For those of you who are a slimmer fit I strongly suggest you try them out.

Below are some photos comparing a traditional cut must-iron BB OCBD and a new must-iron BBBF OCBD. The BB shirt looks grey in the photos because it has been washed a million times and I assume the colour has faded slightly; also the camera is not expensive.

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*Collars*: collars are the same size

https://img585.imageshack.us/i/bbvsbbbf1.jpg/

*Cuffs*: the BBBF shirt has longer sleeve plackets(?) plus a button, cuffs are longer too

https://img818.imageshack.us/i/bbvsbbbf2.jpg/

*Yoke*: the BBBF shirt has a wider yoke made of two pieces, plus the locker loop

https://img853.imageshack.us/i/bbvsbbbf3.jpg/

*Pockets*: chest pockets are roughly the same size

https://img545.imageshack.us/i/bbvsbbbf4.jpg/

*Front Placket / Skirts*: the BBBF shirt has a square of fabric around the bottom button and the placket ends above the bottom of the shirt, also and the skirts overlap; the BB shirt has a full-length placket

https://img28.imageshack.us/i/bbvsbbbf5.jpg/

*Side Gusset*: the BBBF shirt has side gusset reinforcements

https://img30.imageshack.us/i/bbvsbbbf6.jpg/


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I love my only BBF shirt, unfortunately I'm about to have to sell it. The BB3 fits everywhere but the neck, which is huge on me. Shame because they're really cool shirts IMO


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

They are indeed nice shirts. I got one in a yellow that I thought was a bit more classic than the current OCBD offering.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

hookem12387 said:


> I love my only BBF shirt, unfortunately I'm about to have to sell it. The BB3 fits everywhere but the neck, which is huge on me. Shame because they're really cool shirts IMO


That's the problem with Black Fleece shirts, not enough sizes available.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Exactly. If you have an 18 neck, you're SOL. Same thing with Press. Might as well be the same with LE, which inexplicably jacks the price hugely when the size goes from 17.5 to 18. If Mr. Browne would care to explain why his sizing system is the cat's pajamas, I would love to hear the rationale.

BB OCBD rules.



Steve Smith said:


> That's the problem with Black Fleece shirts, not enough sizes available.


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## dorji (Feb 18, 2010)

Steve Smith said:


> That's the problem with Black Fleece shirts, not enough sizes available.


I agree that they are nice, and have MOP buttons too I think? Unfortunately the sizing does not work for me.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

For $150, why not proper neck and sleeve measures? This makes them good for little else than expensive sport shirts unless you happen to fit into their crazy sizing.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

There's no accounting for taste, but the plainer style of the regular BB is what I like, the shorter cuff and placket w/o button, one piece yoke, without locker loop - it's hard to find these things on a good shirt!


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

The color of the blue fabric used in the blue BBBF shirts is different from the blue BB Supima. While DD's Supima may have faded a tiny bit, most of the color difference is due to starting out as a different shade.

The BBBF shirts are made in the same factory (Garland) as the BB Supima shirts. Certain details (neck & pocket stitching, for example) are identical in the two shirts.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Jovan said:


> For $150, why not proper neck and sleeve measures? This makes them good for little else than expensive sport shirts unless you happen to fit into their crazy sizing.


For $150, why not bespoke? (Can be done.) Or at least MTM.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Good point, Flanderian. Who makes a good bespoke OCBD for around that price? I've always wanted one that has shoulder pleats (preferred over centre/box pleat) and a collar button in the back. Mercer has those options, but at the price of their customisations, plus slimming it down so I don't swim in it, plus shipping... I may as well get bespoke!


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

I never expected opinions to be so strong regarding the Black Fleece shirts and I hope everyone who has an opinion has tried them on! Bottom line for me: I like them much better than the regular BB shirts, particularly the wider yoke and longer cuffs, and am happy to make the switch even with the price jump.


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## BorderBandit (Apr 16, 2011)

IMHO I really enjoy the BBBF shirts instead of the regular OCBDs. I buy the regular BB shirts in slim fit because of that horrible "blousing" effect, but it's hell to find something that fits in the chest (44") versus my waist (34"). Suits are just as bad. So slim fit works well for me in waist, but is/can be restricting in collar and chest.

That in itself is the main thing I enjoy about the BBBF is that, as others have noted, it seem the collar and/or chest is slightly larger than regular BB OCBDs. Mr. Browne is known for his shrunken fits but *also* his taper, but without any research to back this up all I can really say is that I enjoy this "V taper" in the BBBF shirst much more so than in regular BB shirts.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Right there with you on taper. My BBF ocbd has a brilliant fit (everywhere but the neck). I'm a 42" chest and 31" waist so I know your pain on the drop issue, and these shirts are tapered very well.


BorderBandit said:


> IMHO I really enjoy the BBBF shirts instead of the regular OCBDs. I buy the regular BB shirts in slim fit because of that horrible "blousing" effect, but it's hell to find something that fits in the chest (44") versus my waist (34"). Suits are just as bad. So slim fit works well for me in waist, but is/can be restricting in collar and chest.
> 
> That in itself is the main thing I enjoy about the BBBF is that, as others have noted, it seem the collar and/or chest is slightly larger than regular BB OCBDs. Mr. Browne is known for his shrunken fits but *also* his taper, but without any research to back this up all I can really say is that I enjoy this "V taper" in the BBBF shirst much more so than in regular BB shirts.


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## BorderBandit (Apr 16, 2011)

Actually I'd be interested to know what Brooks Brother's OCBD shirts were like before vanity sizing came into play. I've been searching for some sort of comparative evidence to no avail, but I'd be willing to bet that there's been some sort of "dimension creep" over time as individuals have gotten more corpulent, or when the company changed ownership, etc. etc. For example, maybe someone who has found some NOS could compare that to a modern model of BB shirting.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

There have been some posts to that effect (comparing vintage BB OCBDs to the current model, by measurements.) 

I think they've grown and shrunk in a few cycles over the years. Baggier in the 40s/50s, slimmer in the 60s. Then baggier again, then slimmer again.

Of course the "traditional cut" is much bigger than the "slim fit", which is really very medium-ish (to your point.)

But I think a search would turn up a couple-three posts along the lines of what you're looking for, if I'm not mistaken.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

^ Heavy Tweed Jacket did a very detailed comparison, which I recall included weighing the two shirts - but I can't recall the results :biggrin2:.


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## BorderBandit (Apr 16, 2011)

I found one section on Heavy Tweed's Blog wherein he compared a 1980s OCBD to a Madras shirt and the results to me were stunning.









Photo Credit: Personal photo of blog "Heavy Tweed Jacket"

To paraphrase the text, the neck and shoulder measurements for these 15 1/2" shirts were the same, body measurements notsamuch. This is thus far all I could really find about vanity sizing there, but it will really really make me laugh if the "Made in USA" OCBD is actually vanity sized for ongoing obesity epidemic America versus the "Made in India" Madras. Of course I have no idea which shirt corresponds to *proper* dimensions, but the invective invaded my brain and had to be shared.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

There's no vanity in the sizing if the neck and sleeve lengths correspond to the numbers on the tag. There are no 'proper' dimensions for a shirt [cut], that's why there are different cuts. If the 'traditional' cut has gotten larger over time I could understand the argument, but I doubt it has. I am not overweight and I prefer the traditional cut. It's a stylistic choice. I am uncomfortable in the slimmer cuts...I find them binding.


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## BorderBandit (Apr 16, 2011)

Danny said:


> There's no vanity in the sizing if the neck and sleeve lengths correspond to the numbers on the tag. There are no 'proper' dimensions for a shirt [cut], that's why there are different cuts. If the 'traditional' cut has gotten larger over time I could understand the argument, but I doubt it has. I am not overweight and I prefer the traditional cut. It's a stylistic choice. I am uncomfortable in the slimmer cuts...I find them binding.


See, that's what I was wondering, if there ARE proper dimensions in shirt width or not. However, form what I could get off the blog, those shirts are the same size, before the whole traditional, regular, slim, extra slim even existed.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

BorderBandit said:


> See, that's what I was wondering, if there ARE proper dimensions in shirt width or not. However, form what I could get off the blog, those shirts are the same size, before the whole traditional, regular, slim, extra slim even existed.


Was the blog discussing the differences between a Neck-Sleeve sized OCBD and an S/M/L sized madras sport shirt?


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## BorderBandit (Apr 16, 2011)

Steve Smith said:


> Was the blog discussing the differences between a Neck-Sleeve sized OCBD and an S/M/L sized madras sport shirt?


That was the one. It was a discussion of a 15 1/2 OCBD and a 15 1/2 Madras. He tried a 16 as well, and there was also a difference. It wouldn't surprise me if American made sizing was more "generous" than others. Didn't mean to open a can of worms on this, but a quick search of AAAC forums left me with anecdotal evidence mainly and not something more objectively measured. I'm thinking of switching exclusively to BBBF shirts and am trying to make the best decision.

This post:

THIS, however is the infamous post wherein OCBDs are measured and even weighed.

The conclusions here are somewhat similar from the previous post, but not as drastic. NOS (1990) versus contemporary showed a roomier chest and a slightly longer length. Also, the heft of the fabric has gotten heavier. There was also a discussion there about the lining in the collar, as described in a previous thread on this forum. Noticeably the comparison of the collars could rectify some of this debate over sizing since the new OCBD collars are considerably thicker than older OCBDs, possibly leading towards an increased collar size to compensate for thicker fabric?

I'd like to continue what Heavy Tweed has done, but have no NOS OCBDs to measure comparably to either regular BB OCBDs or BBBBF OCBDs. However, again though this is a 10 year difference, I'm still wondering of what I shall arbitrarily name the pre-modern era before the 1980s OCBD would compare. My grammar and syntax are atrocious but I'm tired, blargh.


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## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

I have been happy with the core must iron BB OCBDs compared to the sport shirt versions which are really roomy. Going forward I'll just gun for the slim fit versions.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

_Posted the following in response to something Trip asked in another thread:_

The BBBF sleeves are a bit long for me, but my arms are a bit short, so the sizing is probably okay for normal people. I do find the skirts to be a bit short, but the fit is so good they never pull out of my pants, whereas my classic fit BB shirts, which are uber-long, constantly pull out of my pants - that proves fit is everything. Checking the BBBF size chart (scroll down to bottom) I would say the measured size is 1" larger than quoted in the chart; so, for example, I wear a size BB3 which is quoted in the chart as 16" neck and 34" sleeve, but in fact the shirts measure to almost 17" neck and at least 35" sleeve. The torso, however, is slim and a bit short, so I think men with a spare tire and/or a looooong body should avoid; on the other hand, I'm doing okay and I'm usually a 42L in suits.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Did you measure before or after washing and drying a few times? That can make quite a bit of difference. I understand they are "garment washed" but that sometimes means little. (Especially when Hanes undershirts are supposedly preshrunk yet go up to my belly button after washing and drying on low. Once.)

The reason I've avoided long sleeve BBBF shirts, even when significantly discounted, is because of the wacky Thom Browne sizing. Heck, that's why I'd avoid the suits too... I'm not sure if I'd have to size up and if that would even be enough.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Jovan said:


> Did you measure before or after washing and drying a few times? That can make quite a bit of difference. I understand they are "garment washed" but that sometimes means little. (Especially when Hanes undershirts are supposedly preshrunk yet go up to my belly button after washing and drying on low. Once.)


Couple of washes, but I do it carefully and drip dry after only a very short whirl in the dryer. In my experience, only the white BB oxford shirts shrink in any significant way which I why I will never buy another white OCBD shirt from BB.


> The reason I've avoided long sleeve BBBF shirts, even when significantly discounted, is because of the wacky Thom Browne sizing. Heck, that's why I'd avoid the suits too... I'm not sure if I'd have to size up and if that would even be enough.


The system seems crazy because of the "BB3" nomenclature, but the measurements more or less match what letter sizing should be (or is when vanity sizing is not given priority). I have regular BB buttondown shirt which is a Medium and the measurements are only slightly smaller than the BBBF BB3 size, which supposedly is Browne's Medium.

I think many folks need to ignore Thom Browne's reputation for zaniness and simply try some of his stuff.

Edit: I used to think I was an odd size and needed special sizing, but experience has taught me that I'm not really far off the "average" and I'm not going to _not_ buy something cool because it isn't 100% perfect. I would prefer the BBBF shirts to be 1/2" shorter in the sleeves, but they fit 95% right overall. I could get the regular BB shirts with exact sleeve lengths, but those only fit me 75% right overall (due to other fit issues), so the decision is easy for me.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

BorderBandit said:


> Actually I'd be interested to know what Brooks Brother's OCBD shirts were like before vanity sizing came into play.


In the 1970's and 80's the must-iron OCBDs were straighter-cut, longer in the body, had longer sleeves and shorter cuffs, slightly shorter collars, bigger pockets, and narrower shoulders than the current line. The Oxford cloth in these shirts was thicker, sturdier, and more consistent in hand and appearance. Cuffs and collars weren't interfaced back then, either. This gave the shirts a different, somewhat looser fit than what we experience today. Today's Brooks OCBD, though good, has suffered from almost all aspects of it being changed from "good" to "almost as good but a lot cheaper" - _i.e.,_ value engineering - and isn't at all what it used to be.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

One of the regular sellers on SF recently put up a wonderful BBBF multi-panel fun shirt but without a tag. We have debated the size and don't agree! Anyway, I made a point of measuring several of my BBBF shirts to confirm sizing (they're starting to accumulate in my closet).

Here's what the official BBBF size chart says:
BB0 36 15/31 
BB1 38 15/33 
BB2 40 15.5/34 
BB3 42 16/34 
BB4 44 16.5/35 
BB5 46 17/35

Here's how my BB3 shirts measure: nearly all of them measure to 16-16.5" neck and 35" sleeve. Each of my shirts measure 24" across the chest just under the arms. One of them measures extra big, both in the neck and sleeves, and that one, unfortunately, is the one I posted about earlier in this thread-it is the outlier among my informal data sample and past measurements I posted are not to be trusted.

So, it appears the BB3 shirts measure a bit larger in the collar than the size chart, and 1" longer in the sleeve than the size chart. I imagine the other sizes are similarly "laundry shrinkage sized".


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

At 15.5x34 and 40 REG, the "M" sized sport shirts in Slim or Regular fit me better than the neck and sleeve sized dress shirts. I'm almost tempted to hit the outlets for some cheap "346" OCBDs. How few sizes there are doesn't matter, if one of them fits _you_. Sometimes you can't know that until you try one.


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## dport86 (Jan 24, 2009)

I've bought BBBF OCBD's every year since the collection first debuted, and much prefer the quality over the regular offerings. That being said, have found in the last 2 years a lot of sizing variation (even within the same year) and some quality variation too. Some of these shirts were made with fantastic fabrics of a quality level not seen in BB standard shirtings (not to denigrate Golden Fleece, which is often superb quality but more akin to Italian than trad norms). But others are now of lesser, perhaps more standard BB shirtings, and the fit on some is larger than others. Be careful not to judge all from single current examples. I'm happy I bought extras early on.


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