# C&J or Trickers?



## adrian07 (Aug 3, 2007)

Someone asked me today but I couldn't answer as I know nearly nothing about Tricker's.

Which of these two makers do you personally think makes better quality shoes? I know this is highly subjective so I'll make it a poll to count how many think each is superior. 

Thanks.


----------



## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

I've never had either, but currently am awaiting one pair of each from pediwear (free shipping too good to be true). I really am a shoe novice though, and wouldn't know what to look for, so I'll check back on this thread with anticipation!


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

You can't go wrong with either though C&J, especially handgrades, are superior in quality and materials.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Rossini said:


> You can't go wrong with either though C&J, especially handgrades, are superior in quality and materials.


I thought the same and voted C&J but have since had cause to reconsider...

Tricker's have a substantial collection of styles only available via MTO. These shoes are superior to the usual internet stock, often featuring a 'London waist' (bevelled & mild fiddle) and better quality leathers. When you add this to the closed channels you get on the majority of their dress shoes anyway, you have a comparable shoe (in construction at least) to C&J HGs.

I think C&J have more elegant lasts but I prefer Tricker's closely trimmed welts and fine welt stitching.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

I think I remember the thread with the picture of the Tricker's as you describe. Yes, it was a beautiful shoe. It's actually quite an unusual contrast at Tricker's- the standard range has a reputation for being slightly clunky but well made and great value, and yet (as you say) they have a penchant for creating a variety of unusual shoes with coloured leathers, or interiors, and also really sublime shoes like those you describe. 

Also, while I do like the C&J Handgrades, I often find myself looking and just being slightly disappointed that they all seem to be on the same Gomez 337 last - which I find a little too long. And that there aren't many models (i know there are some extra ones from France, etc).


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

*a surprise*

I was going to vote C&J until I remembered what "Tricker" ( he works for Trickers ) wrote on another thread about Loake shoes. He said all the Northampton shoemakers use the same quality leather and construction techniques. Whilst he said he would buy C&J I think the logical conclusion of what he was saying was to go for Trickers. Why? Well, when you consider that many more Trickers models are made on oak bark tanned soles with closed channels than C&J ( who only make their top range shoes like this) and when you consider you pay £220 for a pair of said Tricker but £350 for Crockett and Jones it looks like a "no -brainer".

I do think C&J lasts are much more elegant on the whole but the question was about quality not about asthetics.


----------



## alerik (Jan 27, 2006)

Leather man said:


> ........when you consider you pay £220 for a pair of said Tricker but £350 for Crockett and Jones it looks like a "no -brainer". ....


OK, I'm used to buying my C&J's from the factory shop in Northampton. Anyone, know what the shoe prices are like at the Trickers Factory store over there? I've never been.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

I think the shoes at the Tricker's Factory shop start at £100-£125.


----------



## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

I have very limited experience with Tricker's, but it seems like an apples and oranges comparison. Tricker's, from what I've seen, makes nicely sturdy, rather conservative shoes, sort of like AE. They do country shoes very well. C&Js offers flashier models -- more sleek and modern -- and their best shoes have better finishing and more refined detailing.

Ultimately, both are nice shoes. If I were after a country boot, I'd happily consider Tricker's. For most city shoes, I'd lean toward C&J.


----------



## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

I buy from both firms and have been very happy with them.


----------



## jmonroestyle (Nov 6, 2006)

I own the C&J Radstock, as well as the Trickers Henley and Richmond (Jermyn Street collection).

They are all excellent shoes, made of fine materials, with excellent crafstmanship.

I would say at normal retail prices, Trickers offers more shoe for less money, compared to C&J Benchgrade. The Trickers Henley (cap toe bal) is not much more money than an AE Park Avenue (when one purchases the Henley mail order minus the VAT) yet the leather used, closed channel sole stitching, and other fine craftsmanship put this shoe in a league with shoes that cost twice as much money, or even more. I have handled John Lobb and Edward Green shoes. If someone covered up the names of the shoes and asked me to tell which was which, based on the quality (not last shapes), I would be hard pressed to say which was which.

Like others have posted, Trickers lasts have more traditional shapes, while the current offerings from C&J are mostly rather elongated. I am OK with owning several pairs of elongated shoes. However, I wouldn't want to have a whole closet full of them. When one gets up to the larger sizes (I am a UK 11) the shoes become very loooong. 

I really like the look of more traditional round and square toes. Not only do they look great, but they are comfortable to wear also, and will be around long after the current fashion of elongated narrow toes have come and gone. If I remember correctly, I believe the last time narrow pointy toes were "in", was sometime in the 1970's.

Jess


----------



## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Trickers are more sturdy but C&J have more RTW styles, e.g. loafers, that fit me. Being a wide fitting, I have only had to choose between both firms when buying cap-toe Oxfords. I copped out and bought both. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Like the good Bishop, I also have C&Js & Tricker's and like them both. The C&J are a little more stylised but the Tricker's are just as appealing if not as fashion forward.

There is some fine welt stitching on the Tricker's, identical in this regard to my EGs. I just wish they would cut the closed channel a little deeper. I had to glue the channel (at the toe) again this evening before the leather flap tears.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Though the odd Tricker does make an attempt at being a little more stylised....
























Ok, so the last one is still rather clunky!


----------



## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

Rossini said:


> Though the odd Tricker does make an attempt at being a little more stylised....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I almost bought a pair similar to the last ones there (kind of like a saddle shoe) on eBay. Would have considered upping my bid to getthem if I knew something specific to wear them with. I'm free to dress creatively at work, and my boss mentions my wardrobe along with Elton Johns in the same breath (I'm not quite as flashy)...so what would you recommend wearing shoes like those with?


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

A rotary seed drill?!

Maybe Tweed or something dark and grey and worsted or heavy denim..... I don't know really!


----------



## tricker (Feb 9, 2008)

jjl5000 said:


> Like the good Bishop, I also have C&Js & Tricker's and like them both. The C&J are a little more stylised but the Tricker's are just as appealing if not as fashion forward.
> 
> There is some fine welt stitching on the Tricker's, identical in this regard to my EGs. I just wish they would cut the closed channel a little deeper. I had to glue the channel (at the toe) again this evening before the leather flap tears.


I'll pass that concern on for you, the stitcher is always moaning about the channel not being cut enough too

Rossini : you should see the shoes the Japs order, left foot brogue, right foot oxford, not to mention the fluorescent green, orange and blue jodphur boots

jmonroestyle : your post about covering up the names and not telling is going to raise some big laughs at work tomorrow

we are getting battered in the poll, not surprised in the slightest though


----------



## Puffdaddy (Dec 21, 2006)

How does one go about commissioning a MTO Tricker's shoe?


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

I have tried to illustrate the welt similarity between Tricker's dress oxfords and EGs but unfortunately the pictures are not great:

Edward Green









Tricker's









On other maker's shoes, the stitching seems to sink into the welt making it hard to determine how fine (no. of stitches per inch) there are:

C&J Handgrade









Gaziano & Girling









On a completely different subject, there was a beautiful sunset yesterday evening and I took a picture (camera phone) from my office window...


----------



## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

I've got catalogues from both companies at home, and there are some Trickers styles I'd pick up: The Harrow (looks nicer to me than the C&J Alex), the Belgrave in light tan. I was shocked to see the number of styles that could be made to order! I wish I had the book with me now, but there was at least one from the City line that I'd go for.

If Tricker's produced a lace-up "city boot" (along the same lines as C&J's Villiers or Higham), I'd probably pull the trigger. Can't have too many boots, IMO.

Geoff


----------



## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

I am facinated to know who buys all those big country boots. Is the market that big ? You do not see many photos on here of people actually wearing them.

I think I would like Tricker's more if I was more aware of their range. The website does not show that much. Wholecuts and Adelaide style with the U front look very nice but I am probably not familiar with most of their offerings.

Point taken about the C&J 337 last. I have an Audley and a Clifford. I may stop there or possibly get one more - a black Aintree or the wholecut.


----------



## nikwik (Oct 29, 2005)

Kingstonian said:


> I think I would like Tricker's more if I was more aware of their range. The website does not show that much. Wholecuts and Adelaide style with the U front look very nice but I am probably not familiar with most of their offerings.


Try this one instead...

https://www.pediwear.co.uk/trickers.php


----------



## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

The pediware list is the one I usually look at, but even so I suspect there are more Trickers shoes than they feature.


----------



## speedster (Jan 13, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> Point taken about the C&J 337 last. I have an Audley and a Clifford. I may stop there or possibly get one more - a black Aintree or the wholecut.


Your two remaining wishes are nice I personally have a weak spot for the Weymouth. But must admit im quite intregued by the MTO option from Trickers :idea:

Speed


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

speedster said:


> Your two remaining wishes are nice I personally have a weak spot for the Weymouth. But must admit im quite intregued by the MTO option from Trickers :idea:
> 
> Speed


Will you still be intrigued by the £395 MTO price :devil:


----------



## jmonroestyle (Nov 6, 2006)

Geoff Gander said:


> I've got catalogues from both companies at home, and there are some Trickers styles I'd pick up: /quote]
> 
> Is the Tricker catalog current and still available?
> 
> ...


----------



## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

I might be, depending on how flexible Tricker's MTO option is. If it's limited to choosing the colour of the shoe, maybe not.

Geoff

PS - The range on Pediwear is impressive, but there's a lot more. From the catalogue, every range has several styles available as MTO, and the City range is entirely MTO. It's well worth it to ask for a copy of the catalogue.


----------



## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

jmonroestyle said:


> Is the Tricker catalog current and still available?
> 
> Who is the best contact to obtain a copy?


IIRC it's dated 2007, and I got my copies (got it twice for some reason) in December and January '08. I sent an email to Tricker's EBay store, asking about the availability of a pair of Belgrave seconds in size 9, and had it sent to me. Try emailing [email protected].

Geoff


----------



## nikwik (Oct 29, 2005)

Geoff Gander said:


> PS - The range on Pediwear is impressive, but there's a lot more. From the catalogue, every range has several styles available as MTO, and the City range is entirely MTO. It's well worth it to ask for a copy of the catalogue.


Do you know anything about Trickers´s St James´s Collection. I have a pair of "Norfolk" (Bought them two years ago at a sale in the shop in Jermyn Street) but I have not found any information about them anywhere. A discontinued range?


----------



## jmonroestyle (Nov 6, 2006)

Geoff Gander said:


> IIRC it's dated 2007, and I got my copies (got it twice for some reason) in December and January '08. I sent an email to Tricker's EBay store, asking about the availability of a pair of Belgrave seconds in size 9, and had it sent to me. Try emailing [email protected].
> 
> Geoff


Thanks for the info!

Jess


----------



## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

nikwik said:


> Do you know anything about Trickers´s St James´s Collection


The St. James collection is comprised of the Harrow wholecut and several other nice shoes. It's still being made and looks to be of good quality - but the Norfolk isn't there. The main difference between Pediwear's offerings (for example) and what's in the catalogue is the availability of the City Line. Here is the description of it from the company - hope this helps!

Geoff

----------------------------------------------------

Good afternoon Mr Gander,
The city line, is primarily made for our Jermyn Street store!
It differs in the fact that it is available in several width fittings
And having a rounder toe than the chisel toed 1829, the cost very similar to all other Trickers business shoes
At approximately £ 260.00
Kind regards David


----------



## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

postscript - There is a version of the Belgrave made under the City Line - looks almost identical but the colour in the stock photo is very nice.

Geoff


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Geoff Gander said:


> postscript - There is a version of the Belgrave made under the City Line - looks almost identical but the colour in the stock photo is very nice.
> 
> Geoff


I think that's the Sussex. A very nice style.

There do seem to be a number of similar styles where the only difference from one collection to another is the last shape used. IIRC the City range are round toed where as the 1829 collection has a soft square toe shape.


----------



## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

Just got my shoes from pediwear today...

Trickers York black calf
C&J Westfield Tobacco Calf Suede

I think the C&J fit me better, the Trickers are a bit short in the foot, and wide...but I'm sure a little wearing will do them good.

I do have a serious question...I have never owned a "good" pair of shoes before. Most of my shoes are American Mall brands (Banana and JCrew) but now that I've stepped up, how often should I polish? With what? The trickers came with polish and a cloth. The C&J are suede...how do I protect them? Any and ALL advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

https://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2037698580103029505wJaowy

https://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2239341910103029505tsGpBD

https://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2552730870103029505tfhUFN

Also, regarding the lacing...did I do the whole military style right? Sorry for being so ignorant with my footwear...:icon_headagainstwal


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Very nice additions both. I particularly like the suede semi brogue. Enjoy!


----------



## tricker (Feb 9, 2008)

jjl5000 said:


> I have tried to illustrate the welt similarity between Tricker's dress oxfords and EGs but unfortunately the pictures are not great:
> 
> Edward Green
> 
> ...


To be honest thats a good shape for us, a round toe, if it was a chisel toe you would notice that our feather isnt so good, for those that dont know shoe making terminology, the feather is the line where ribbing on the insole, upper and welt join, its the edge of the underside of the insole, it is underneath the shoe, greater at the toe than anywhere else, and allows the closeness of the stitching which in turn determines how close the edges of the sole can be trimmed at finishing.

You will notice that our offering doesnt have such defined 'wheeling', which is the marks on the welt which is traditionally spaced equally to the stitching, and thus draws the eye away from the stitches themselves. This is because we have lost the heat element on the machine, and instead of 'branding' the welt, we rely on sheer pressure alone to do it.

The reason the C&J shoe has stitches 'sunk' into the welt is because they fudge stitch most of their shoes, there is a small knife just ahead of the needle on the stitcher which slits the welt for the needle to stitch inside the slit and completely hides it.

To be fair to us at Trickers, we do a damn good job with the tools they give us, so come on, buy our shoes, so I can have a bigger bonus next year :aportnoy:


----------



## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

rgrossicone said:


> I do have a serious question...I have never owned a "good" pair of shoes before. Most of my shoes are American Mall brands (Banana and JCrew) but now that I've stepped up, how often should I polish? With what? The trickers came with polish and a cloth. The C&J are suede...how do I protect them? Any and ALL advice would be greatly appreciated.


I never thought you could over polish black shoes. I am sure someone will disagree though.

A brush is useful, but you already have the polish and a cloth. Kiwi I find pretty good. Plenty of spit and polish can make even cheap black leather look good.


----------



## nikwik (Oct 29, 2005)

*A small contribution...*



tricker said:


> To be fair to us at Trickers, we do a damn good job with the tools they give us, so come on, buy our shoes, so I can have a bigger bonus next year :aportnoy:


If you tell me which models use the 6038 last and if its always possible to order them in the wide fitting (I have feet like Donald Duck...) I might contribute to your bonus in a few months time...


----------



## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

rgrossicone said:


> Just got my shoes from pediwear today...
> 
> Trickers York black calf
> C&J Westfield Tobacco Calf Suede


Nice shoes by the way. I will have to get some black monks now.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

tricker said:


> To be fair to us at Trickers, we do a damn good job with the tools they give us, so come on, buy our shoes, so I can have a bigger bonus next year :aportnoy:


Thanks Tricker, very informative as usual.

I have long been a fan of Tricker's dress shoes. I believe you can make an extremely refined shoe at an excellent price point. I find the close cut welts, fine welt stitching and closed channel oak bark tanned soles to really add value.

Now sort those shallow channels out ic12337: & make the London waist standard across all dress shoes and you will be hard to beat :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> I never thought you could over polish black shoes. I am sure someone will disagree though.
> 
> A brush is useful, but you already have the polish and a cloth. Kiwi I find pretty good. Plenty of spit and polish can make even cheap black leather look good.


Are there any videos that would really show well how to properly do it?


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> Thanks Tricker, very informative as usual.
> 
> I have long been a fan of Tricker's dress shoes. I believe you can make an extremely refined shoe at an excellent price point. I find the close cut welts, fine welt stitching and closed channel oak bark tanned soles to really add value.
> 
> Now sort those shallow channels out ic12337: & make the London waist standard across all dress shoes and you will be hard to beat :icon_smile_wink:


Just wanted to say +1!


----------



## Leon (Apr 16, 2005)

This is the best online catalogue i have seen for Tricker's

https://www.radiatorcreate.com/iframes/iframe_p_trickers2.php

Leon


----------



## speedster (Jan 13, 2008)

rgrossicone said:


> Just got my shoes from pediwear today...
> 
> Trickers York black calf
> C&J Westfield Tobacco Calf Suede
> ...


Thanks for sharing some nice shoes, I would be interested in our sizing on both, and if you by chance could measure the outsole (length and widht) it is a simple but some what crude reference.

I would recommend a good large horsehair brush to brush out the polish.
And a cloth for the final touch. Some use a pantyhose, some an old silk tie
. this al to ad "heat" to the final step and increase shine, we are still not at the spit shine stage though.

I have found the tips @saintcrispin & @j.m.Weston to be quite good
https://saint-crispins.com/e_pret/index4.html
(including video  )

HTH

Speed


----------



## tricker (Feb 9, 2008)

jjl5000 said:


> Thanks Tricker, very informative as usual.
> 
> I have long been a fan of Tricker's dress shoes. I believe you can make an extremely refined shoe at an excellent price point. I find the close cut welts, fine welt stitching and closed channel oak bark tanned soles to really add value.
> 
> Now sort those shallow channels out ic12337: & make the London waist standard across all dress shoes and you will be hard to beat :icon_smile_wink:


Would love to, unfortunately its not my decision, I just sew the welts on currently. Do you find that our channels wear out a lot faster than other makes, or is the problem that they are just coming unstuck, as we had a problem with adhesive a while back, and they keep changing the operator on that job, some are better than others.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

tricker said:


> Would love to, unfortunately its not my decision, I just sew the welts on currently. Do you find that our channels wear out a lot faster than other makes, or is the problem that they are just coming unstuck, as we had a problem with adhesive a while back, and they keep changing the operator on that job, some are better than others.


TBH it's both. I can't tell you how many times I've glued the leather back down . On one pair, it was quite apparent that the glue used was woefully inadequate and I easily opened the channel all the way around the shoe and re-sealed using my own supply of single part polyurethane cement. Job done, it has not come apart since.

Having said this, the splice is thin and soon wears through. My experience is based on 6 pairs of Tricker's compared to other English shoes with closed channels: EG, AS, G&G, C&J. In fact, you can actually see the impression of the welt stitching hiding under the channel, which emphasises just how thin the splice is.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> Tricker's have a substantial collection of styles only available via MTO. These shoes are superior to the usual internet stock, often featuring a 'London waist' (bevelled & mild fiddle) and better quality leathers. When you add this to the closed channels you get on the majority of their dress shoes anyway, you have a comparable shoe (in construction at least) to C&J HGs.


FYI as a follow-up, I've seen a few shoes in this style available from the Tricker's factory shop recently: red linings, fancy london waist, closed channel tooled leather soles... all very tempting!


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Rossini said:


> FYI as a follow-up, I've seen a few shoes in this style available from the Tricker's factory shop recently: red linings, fancy london waist, closed channel tooled leather soles... all very tempting!


Yes, I spotted them to. They do appear from time to time.

In fact, I won one of the very early auctions from the factory shop that yielded a MTO spec shoe for under £100. Unfortunately, the 2004 last didn't work at all  and I sold them on.

As many have said before, such is the danger of buying shoes without trying them on or previous experience with the same last.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

I'm in the same position - I bought one and I'm hoping the 2004 last will work. Being narrower than the standard Tricker's sounds like a good thing. Only time will tell!


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Rossini said:


> I'm in the same position - I bought one and I'm hoping the 2004 last will work. Being narrower than the standard Tricker's sounds like a good thing. Only time will tell!


I think you might be in luck if a slimmer fitting is what you're looking for. I have a high instep and couldn't even fasten the double monks I bought .

It was a real shame as they were very nicely finished, not to mention the great price.

Please post pics when you receive them!


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Will do - 

I, too, have a relatively high instep but we'll see what happens when they come. Thanks.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

They seem to fit fine. Here are some pics as promised:


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Great shoes Rossini!

They look a lot like the Regent. I'm diggin' the red lining, very nice. Do they have double leather soles?


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Thanks - that's my impression also - that they're a full double-leather sole. However it wasn't in the description:

OFF THE NEW SLIMMER 2004 LAST​ A MANS REGENT OXFORD BUSINESS SHOE​ IN BLACK BOX FULL CALF LEATHER​
WITH RED LININGS AND A FANCY LONDON WAIST​ ON A TOOLED LEATHER SOLE​


----------



## tonup277 (Feb 22, 2008)

wow, those trickers look nice.
i'm not a big fan of black shoes, but i'd certainly consider those if i'm ever in the search.

i just received a pair of trickers kensington in beechnut burnished from pediwear.
at first the fit seemed a bit large for me...but after wearing it today, they are perfect. 
i'm really glad i got them. pediwear had a great price, and free shipping!


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Tonup - if you do consider them in the future, it's worth noting that these particular ones are not the standard Tricker's Regent but have been modified so they are different to what you would normally get from Pediwear or Plal.


----------



## rssmsvc (Aug 5, 2004)

CJ All the way


----------



## JPaulCo (Feb 28, 2008)

I visited both stores when I was in London about a month ago. Trickers is probably the more notable name as they hold a Royal Warrant and make bespoke for Prince Charles. They have some nice shoes in stock and I’m sure they have beautiful bespoke offerings, but personally I didn’t like they ready made stuff as much as C&J. I actually purchased a pair of Trickers loafers in brown calf, but ended up returning then as I was questioning the fit and construction quality compared to some of the other firms. Honestly all of the ready made stuff is so close I would recommend finding a firm that fits your foot properly as they all seem to fit slightly different. I ended up settling with Foster & Son and I have been quite pleased with my purchases. But I did vote for C&J because I think they make some beautiful styles not to mention an attractive price point. I should also mention that in January everything is on sale on Jermyn Street and it’s a great time to pick up some amazing values.

Josh


----------



## tricker (Feb 9, 2008)

Rossini said:


> Thanks - that's my impression also - that they're a full double-leather sole. However it wasn't in the description:
> 
> OFF THE NEW SLIMMER 2004 LAST​ A MANS REGENT OXFORD BUSINESS SHOE​ IN BLACK BOX FULL CALF LEATHER​
> WITH RED LININGS AND A FANCY LONDON WAIST​ ON A TOOLED LEATHER SOLE​


you're right, they have a 4 iron leather thro' and an 8 iron leather sole, hence the lack of the 'london waist', as its not possible to create with a double leather sole, thats very unusual for a shoe made on that last, not quite sure how they came about, they are either specials that missed a deadline or plain simple mistakes due to a ticket mix up!

You've made them look very good there Rossini, you should take the pictures for the catalogue :icon_smile_big:


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Thanks I think they're excellent shoes.

Could you explain what you mean by 4 and 8 iron, is this the number of layers? Are you saying that these aren't a double sole or that they're only double in certain places?

Also, these have a "london waist" as far as I understand it?


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

This is a London waist on a single leather sole as I understand it:










I think you lose some if not all of the 'fiddle' due to the thickness of the double sole. 'Iron' is IIRC, the term used to describe how thick the leather sole is.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Ah, so it's "fancy" but not "fiddled", i.e. it has a thinner suppressed waist but doesn't have the curvature as shown in your pic?


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Rossini said:


> Ah, so it's "fancy" but not "fiddled", i.e. it has a thinner suppressed waist but doesn't have the curvature as shown in your pic?


That would appear to be the case. Still, I'm just as partial to the soles you have with the advantage of greater wear.


----------



## tricker (Feb 9, 2008)

iron refers to the thickness of leather, yes, you have a 5 iron welt, 4 iron thro' and 8 iron sole on a double leather sole, a single sole just has 5 iron welt and 8 iron sole, heavy country shoes and commando and dainite soles have a 6 iron thro' , its a very, very old term and I would have to ask the old boy who handmakes where it originates from.

London waist indeed refers to the sole being bevelled under the waist with a reduced thickness of sole at this point sometimes and a bevelled edge also.
Its just not possible to get the sole to shape around the bevel with a double sole on it, its too thick and would create some major problems on the rounder and stitcher even if pressed on by machine while saturated with water. Probably would look odd on a thick sole also.


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

tricker said:


> iron refers to the thickness of leather,


The term "iron" is an ancient thickness measure for "heavy" (sole) leather in the shoe industry (maybe UK only, I'm not quite sure). 
One iron is 1/48 inch in thickness (approx. ½ mm).

https://reviews.ebay.com/How-the-Th...0000858717?ssPageName=BUYGD:CAT:-1:LISTINGS:2

https://www.claytonleather.com/thicknesstable.htm

The size of leather is still measured in square feet, but today, thickness is always measured in mm. Tannery catalogues 
offer leather in approximate thicknesses (something like 1.8 - 2.0 mm). Those modern computerized and electronic splitting machines, 
which today every factory has, will take their commands only in mm not in irons..


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> Still, I'm just as partial to the soles you have with the advantage of greater wear.


Yes, I was pleasantly surprised on that front, as durability will help. Also, I think the 'fiddle' might suit a more elegant brown shoe, like those monks you have. I'll be on the look out!

Cheers.


----------



## sartort (Jun 23, 2007)

jjl5000,

can you comment on or provide comparison pics between tricker's 2004 last and eg's 888 or c&j's 337. i've never really like any trickers that i have seen but i must say those regents on the 2004 look pretty good. 

also if you or anyone else can comment on the 2004 fit that would be great as well.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

sartort said:


> jjl5000,
> 
> can you comment on or provide comparison pics between tricker's 2004 last and eg's 888 or c&j's 337.


You're killin' me with this comparison malarkey :icon_smile_big:

I sold the 2004's because the fit didn't work. I think they would have been acceptable if the shoe had been an oxford but the double monk was a no go.

I can do a comparison of the 888 or 606 with the 337 if you like?


----------



## sartort (Jun 23, 2007)

ah, you are the G&G man! i forgot to thank you in that other thread (I browse SF much more freq. than AAAC). Thank you very much for that comp. shot. On that note, the G&G soft sq. looks like something I might enjoy and does not seem to be extravagantly longer than the EG 888 as I was lead to believe in some posts here and on SF. In fact from the pics, I would argue it is almost negligible.

re: the EG 888 and C&J 337...I own shoes on both of those lasts and am good there thanks  .

The tricker's 2004 last seems pretty attractive and some of their ebay factory shop shoes seem like a good deal at that price. I have a small need for a black plain cap toe as I do not have one in my rotation but would really only wear it a few times a year so I thought I might save some money there rather than going c&j or eg or vass. But I have slightly narrow feet, US C or UK D and am not sure how the 2004 last fits. I think I will be wiser to just spend a bit more on a C&J belgrave or audley.


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

sartort said:


> ...I have slightly narrow feet, US C or UK D and am not sure how the 2004 last fits...


Well I can't speak for others but I found the 2004 last in a regular width '5' (equivalent to a UK E), to be a far more true to width than the last used extensively for the 1829 collection (I forget the Number, 6145?). The latter is very wide and the '5' fits more like an F if not a tad wider still.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

sartort said:


> jjl5000,
> 
> can you comment on or provide comparison pics between tricker's 2004 last and eg's 888 or c&j's 337. i've never really like any trickers that i have seen but i must say those regents on the 2004 look pretty good.
> 
> also if you or anyone else can comment on the 2004 fit that would be great as well.


I have all three - trickers 2004, EG 888, and C&J 337. Unfortunately, I haven't had the trickers for long. But my impressions are as follows: For my foot, the 888 is the best fit. The 337 is a little too long and possibly too wide. The 2004 looks slightly boxier than the 888 but the width is pretty similar. I think it might be a tad longer, but I really need to get the three out and do a side-by-side - and I will when I get a few moments.


----------



## sartort (Jun 23, 2007)

that would be most appreciated. by the way, I like your regents!


----------



## Slonukhi58 (Mar 2, 2012)

Puffdaddy said:


> How does one go about commissioning a MTO Tricker's shoe?


Hi Puffdaddy,
I've only recently discovered this forum,and your question.If you look on Trickers website they tell you the various modifications you can make to their basic models.If,to take a wild example,you wanted a brogue with Navy blue toes and heels,brown Zug leather vamp and purple leather quarters on red vibram soles they could make it for you!There is a flat fee of 525 Pounds for MTO shoes,no matter how little or how much you modify the shoe.
To give you a concrete example;I recently ordered a pair of Keswick brogues which I've changed from C shade(almost orange)to Lollipop Red(a burnished cherry colour).I've changed the lining from the standard yellow to dark blue,changed the eyelets from tan to brass and changed the welt from a coloured welt to one in natural leather.
You will need to e-mail Trickers telling them your shoe size and width plus the model you'd like and the modifications you'd like to make.You have to pay at the beginning of the process and wait 10-12 weeks to receive the completed shoe.
I hope this answer is helpful.


----------



## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

Just received my Tricker's Kensington in beechnut from Herrings. Simply beautiful and I think they fit my feet better than C&J, due primarily to the more pronounced arch support in the Trickers.

Sadly, I ordered the wrong size. The 9.5 are too large and so they go back for a 9. This will eat up most of the savings I enjoyed with Herrings recent 20% off sale, but so be it, as this my error, and I did not check with Herrings first. I will add that the 5 fitting (which is what my pair were) is quite wide - wider certainly than C&J's E.


----------



## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

My size 9 beechnut Kensingtons arrived today. Perfect, flawless. Worth every penny even factoring in the $70.00 it cost to return the 9.5 for 9.

Highly recommended, both the shoe and Herring's service. Included with the shoes were 1) 2 shoe bags; 2) a shoe polishing cloth; 3) a shoe horn w/ Herring's logo on it; 4) a Herrings 2013 catalogue; and 5) a Trickers informational brochure.

What else is there to say?

The fit on these is perfect for my foot (narrow heel, high arch, high instep).


----------



## band of brothers (Apr 29, 2013)

C&J or Edward Green.


----------



## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

EG fits me better. I have 2: Cadogan in black; Dover in brown. Sizing is funny. The Cadogan is marked as a 10.5E/11 AM. Fits me perfectly, maybe a but roomy in the toe, but I cannot imagine a smaller size on this, the 202 last. Amazing fitting last by the way. Dover is marked as 10.5D. Also fits me very well, maybe a but roomy in the heel, but due to the narrow last on these (82, I think - slightly snug in the front part of the shoe), again, I cannot imagine a smaller size in this last/shoe.


Obviously, there is more handwork in the EG, but whatever fits you is what is important. Had I not acquired my 2 EG's for a song, I would never have spent list on them.


----------



## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

Had I not bought about 10 pairs of shoes since October 2012, I would be in. Apologies.


----------

