# Cleveland's Minstrel Show



## Alistair (Aug 12, 2007)

Watching the ALCS games played at Jacobs Field, one can't help see the repulsive display of racism by some of the Indians fans. Wearing red face, they are modern day minstrels, no better than someone with a ***** in front of their house. If they were in black face, it would (rightly) be a major story about the lingering, overt racism in America. But hey, it's just Indians. And no one says a word.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

There is a young indian lady who politely stands outside games with literature explaining why such depictions are hurtfull. She gets spit on regularly. Another reason I boycott baseball.


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

Kav said:


> There is a young indian lady who politely stands outside games with literature explaining why such depictions are hurtfull. She gets spit on regularly. Another reason I boycott baseball.


Really? That's simply awful...as is the above photo. I can only hope they don't represent the majority of fans. And for the record I'm a member of the Cherokee tribe 

-spence


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## red96 (Jun 26, 2007)

The team itself is just as much to blame as the fans. I've never understood why the Indians have retained the cartoon logo (called Chief Wahoo, I believe) all these years. It's really an offensive image, and unless/until the team stops using it, MLB is basically condoning and encouraging racism.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Nobody b*tches about The Vikings or a very negative representation fulfilling all historical cultural stereotypes, The Raiders. Just a thought.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Nobody b*tches about The Vikings or a very negative representation fulfilling all historical cultural stereotypes, The Raiders. Just a thought.


Or the Fightin' Irish. I can see why Chief Wahoo and the Redskins would be offensive, but I'm still angry about Chief Illini. I'm glad North Dakota kept the Fighting Sioux.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

aaaah....what's in a name??? I remember a few months ago, on Around the Horn, the writer who won (I think it was Tim Cowlishaw) used his face time to say that he thought that the Braves, Indians, Redskins, Seminoles...and just about every other team with an indian name/mascot should have to change their names...I dunno...I mean, yeah, I think we shouldnt make fun of these people or whatever...but...I just can't really see where the big insult comes in...Are People from Texas insulted that Houston decided to name their team the Texans??? I'm sure there are Texans out there who prefer to watch Chiefs games...I mean, if they had a team called the Miami Cubans and their logo was like a Raft or a cigar or something, or a team called the White Guys and had a ghost for their logo, I'd think it was funny...I think sometimes people take these things a little too seriously...it's just a sports team for crying out loud...I dont think that the Chief Wahoo carachter was designed to offend Indians any more than I think the flying Elvis was designed to offend patriots, or Sourdough Sam was designed to offend people who's ancestors came to San Francisco during the gold rush, they're just team logos/mascots...I have friends in Miami who refer to me as the Oakland Raider when I go down to visit...I think it's a pretty cool nickname...should I be offended by the implications??? No, so why then should somebody be insulted by having a team named after their ethnic group...

I'm sure somebody's going to have something smart to say...so I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to get into an argument over this...when it comes to issues this big, there's nothing I can say to change a person's mind, and nothing they're going to say to change mine...


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

*UNC Fighting Whites*



The Gabba Goul said:


> aaaah....what's in a name??? I remember a few months ago, on Around the Horn, the writer who won (I think it was Tim Cowlishaw) used his face time to say that he thought that the Braves, Indians, Redskins, Seminoles...and just about every other team with an indian name/mascot should have to change their names...I dunno...I mean, yeah, I think we shouldnt make fun of these people or whatever...but...I just can't really see where the big insult comes in...Are People from Texas insulted that Houston decided to name their team the Texans??? I'm sure there are Texans out there who prefer to watch Chiefs games...I* mean, if they had a team called the Miami Cubans and their logo was like a Raft or a cigar or something, or a team called the White Guys and had a ghost for their logo, I'd think it was funny..*.I think sometimes people take these things a little too seriously...it's just a sports team for crying out loud...I dont think that the Chief Wahoo carachter was designed to offend Indians any more than I think the flying Elvis was designed to offend patriots, or Sourdough Sam was designed to offend people who's ancestors came to San Francisco during the gold rush, they're just team logos/mascots...I have friends in Miami who refer to me as the Oakland Raider when I go down to visit...I think it's a pretty cool nickname...should I be offended by the implications??? No, so why then should somebody be insulted by having a team named after their ethnic group...
> 
> I'm sure somebody's going to have something smart to say...so I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to get into an argument over this...when it comes to issues this big, there's nothing I can say to change a person's mind, and nothing they're going to say to change mine...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites

https://www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite


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## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

Wow, people offended by the cleveland indian actually exist in in the real world. I think this is the closest Ive ever come to meeting one of you sensitive souls. Lighten up...


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites
> 
> https://www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite


Everything's gonna be all white...LMAO...

now that's funny...


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

American Indians by law could not practise native religons until 1978. The very possession of sacred objects; feathers, pipes made of red catlinite, drums was punishable by imprisonment stemming from the last great uprising of the Ghost Dance and the political pressure of Christian missionaries. American indians were not formally granted US Citizenship until 1926. And yet during this time when our modern collegiate and professional sports teams were forming ,negative stereotypes of bloodthirsty ****** were taken as mascots with the use of these same sacred objects used as props. The name 'REDSKINS' came about from the practise of skinning dead indians from the base of the neck to the lower buttocks as a bounty, one encouraged by President Andrew Jackson who profiteered from land specualtion after the removal of the 5 civilised tribes ( Choctaw scouts and skirmishers formed old Hickory's intelligence unit in the war of 1812.) These skins were actually used in commercial enterprises not unlike another people making soap and lampshades from their victims. While a heavily irish University took on the nickname fighting Irish, American Indians remain the only racial group stygmatised by negative and derogatory visualisations and verbal slurs. Ethnic derogatory behavior is often practised during cultural conflict or formal war. Few people today would walk into a japanese restaurant and call the man making California rolls a jap, nip or *********.They may mumble about the *******, ****** busing the tables. Nobody is going to form a basketball team called THE ***** with fans wearing skull caps with faces painted blue and white, waving blue chemlights and blowing plastic ram horns. Nobody perhaps, but dumb hoosiers.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

It's pretty vile. I looked for it briefly on Google without finding it, but I recall a comedy routine from the 1960's, I think it was from Stan Freberg, based on the premise that the Indians won, so their sports teams were all named after European stereotypes and ethnic slurs. (I'd mention them, but presumably they'd all be blocked. Use your imagination.)
Here we are, a mere forty years later, and we haven't advanced too far, have we? I don't think it's been more than a year that I saw Jane Fonda doing the Tomahawk Chop in Atlanta, we have the idiots in Cleveland with the face paint and feathers, and, as Alistair points out, not a peep from the broadcasters.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

PennGlock said:


> Wow, people offended by the cleveland indian actually exist in in the real world. I think this is the closest Ive ever come to meeting one of you sensitive souls. Lighten up...


+1...


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I think a lot of people are way too sensitive.

I am of 100% German descent. My ethnic group has been pilloried in war movies for years and we even survived "Hogan's Heroes." So far as I know, I understand the difference between fiction and reality and have survived just fine.

A lot of people would be better off working to improve their lives instead of finding ways to be offended.


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## red96 (Jun 26, 2007)

Have you actually looked at the cartoon logo of Chief Wahoo? It's no less offensive than some of the historical depictions of African Americans, such as ***** or Aunt Jemima. 

And with regards to the Redskins, my personal issue is not with the logo (which seems respectful in my mind) but with the name. Would you ever go up to a Native American and call him a ******* to his/her face? 

It's really easy to say there's nothing wrong with an ethnic representation when your ethnic group is not the target.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

My ethnic group was heavily targeted for quite awhile. We lived.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*Seminoles*

Tribes such as the Seminoles pose a problem to the NCAA and other bodies seeking to end Native American mascots, because the actual Seminole tribe endorses the use of their name and image as part of Florida State.

Should each tribe/ethnic group/accent family be allowed to decide which images are negative?


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> My ethnic group was heavily targeted for quite awhile. We lived.


Exactly...I too am part German...and often find myself scratching my head about why it's still okay to this very day to depict us Jerrys as either heartless Nazi killers or scatterbrained dolts (and sometimes both) in movies and television...but whatever...sometimes you just have to shrug these things off...I don't see why everything that offends fringe groups should be removed...and before anybody speaks up and says something like "AAAAAH HAAAAAAA Indians arent a fringe group!!!!!!" think about this...how many Indians do you know really??? have you polled a decent cross-section of Native Americans and asked them if they are all offended by these teams??? I'd be willing to bet that the answer is no...just because the Inidans who are protesting this stuff are the loudest, we can't assume that they are speaking for all of them...my guess is that the majority of them don't really care...but then again...I could be totally wrong...


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Hey,Mets and Yankees fans used to dress themselves up in make-up.That's because they were rooting for their own team.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Gabba, The largest off reservation population of american indians is in Los Angeles County. There are numerous Pow-Wows; California indigenant and out of state indians hosting the dance competitions, various artisans and most importantly, let the general population know indian peoples are not an artifact of popular entertainment. We also have a weekly show ' American Indians on the Air' hosted by KPFK. I am honoured to use 'we' as the grandson of a Choctaw. I am on the Tribal Rolls and attended a indian primary school in Scottsdale Arizona from grades 1- 3. I have attended 5 annual Choctaw gatherings at an ancient mound site, Choctaw oral history extending as far back as the prehistoric Hopewell Culture. I was named an 'Alikshe' of the Choctaw nation, an honourary title of individuals who act as spiritual and physical guardians with special talents. I am the last speaker of a northern California dialect I rescued from oblivion by recording and learning from the last 3 elderly speakers.The irony is I have nice instant sunburn ,irish skin and red hair draped over my high cheekbones, shovel shaped incisors and 0 + blood with the rare Diego gene marker denoting the earlier traced migration of peoples from Siberia. And yet other native peoples will walk up to me, Like actor Wes Studi ( Choctaw/Cherokee) and know I'm 'family.' Perhaps it's my body language somebody once commented was just like guest speaker N. Scott Momaday at a lecture. In any case, I can assure you indian peoples emphatically are hurt and offended by the use of mascots. The criteria for something being offensive does not rest with the parties offending. It lies with those offended. And if you think real prejudice and racial animosity toward indians does not exist, We need to take a roadtrip to a few places I know. Places where young white men still go out and prove their manhood by amputating the fingers from alcoholic indians and then slap hands to mouth screamming Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Towns where blanket- n*gg*r is still a part of the patois. That is why a young indian lady stands outside games with literature being spit on.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Now, I'm a pretty conservative guy & not a fan of the PC crowd, but I have to admit these guys in makeup and the caricature of Chief Wahoo is a bit over the line.

The town I live in was named after the indian chief who befriended the first settlers to the area and other towns close by have the names of his sons & daughters. Our one high school in town took the name Indians & for many years there were no problems. No one dressed up as an indian, no one did the tomahawk chop or anything that would even be remotely considered offensive, even the logo was just a side profile of Chief Oshkosh in his headress. Then, all of a sudden there was a big controversy about using the name "Indians" and guess where it came from? Yup, liberal whites on the school board. They even tried to change the mascot names of some middle schools which were, and still are, The Spartans & The Trojans. Give me a break...

I'm starting my own team, the Fightin' Catholic Krauts 

Brian


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Well don't expect us to provide that grey shredded cabbage stuff here. it's a Dodger Dog or nothing. Obviously this issue can become silly in overzealous behaviour. The Lakota people still mourn the theft of the Black Hills and I've heard one speaker describe Mount Rushmore as a desecration. So what do they do? The huge statue of Crazy Horse is taking form pointing back in defiance.


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## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

While the Redskins will always have a special place in my heart (being DC born), I think that how the names/logos are portrayed are more important than the names themselves.

The Cleveland Indians should probably tone it down some.

That being said, if we had a football team called the Krauts, I imagine that every play would involve a blitz, and the team would keep getting larger through the addition of Poles and Frenchmen.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Right, and somebody will say 'go high' and all the low germans will say 'Bitte?'


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

I've been thinking about the mascot for the Fightin' Catholic Krauts, obviously a fellow in full Alpine attire including a nice mustache, big 'ol bier stein in one hand (to klunk opponents on the head) and a brat on a semmel in other for stamina throughout the fight. Sprinkle a few Catholic symbols on him and presto, there you have it. Underneath would be inscribed "Ja, you are a girlie man!"

Brian


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

vwguy said:


> I've been thinking about the mascot for the Fightin' Catholic Krauts, obviously a fellow in full Alpine attire including a nice mustache, big 'ol bier stein in one hand (to klunk opponents on the head) and a brat on a semmel in other for stamina throughout the fight. Sprinkle a few Catholic symbols on him and presto, there you have it. Underneath would be inscribed "Ja, you are a girlie man!"
> 
> Brian


My wife's hometown in Illinois has "Fritz" as the town mascot:

Their high school mascot is the Eagles though. I think they should have used Fritz.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I doubt there would be a huge outcry over it.


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## Murrah (Mar 28, 2005)

"Places where young white men still go out and prove their manhood by amputating the fingers from alcoholic indians and then slap hands to mouth screamming Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!"

Where does this occur?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

How about when Mets And Yankees fans paint the letters on their chests just so they can support their own team?


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Kav said:


> . Nobody is going to form a basketball team called THE ***** with fans wearing skull caps with faces painted blue and white, waving blue chemlights and blowing plastic ram horns. Nobody perhaps, but dumb hoosiers.


strangly enough, there is a football (soccer) team in amsterdamn called Ajax that has adopted a jewish symbol as its mascot, and whose supporters yell "jews! jews!" at games, and use jewish symbols. it is unclear how this happened. I find it amusing, myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax

off topic, but I thought I'd mention it in relation to Kav's comment.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

Come on now - is there a more ridiculous mascot than Bob Big Boy's Aryan cousin - the University of Nebraska's Herbie Husker? Some dopie, fat, blond guy in overalls with an ear of corn in his pocket - As I look him up on google - it appears they've revised his "look" in 2003. The point is Nebraska is chock full of white folks and even they were't averse to having a buffoonish looking white dude as a mascot - it's all in fun.

From what little I've observed of the Indian tribes/communities in IA, NE, and SD - they have a lot more to worry about than what some drunk guys at a baseball game dress like - this has got to be pretty low on their list of priorities. It seems to me that these tend to be cheap political/PC issues that people like to get upset about to show they care rather than addressing REAL issues that face native americans like lack of healthcare, lack of economic opportunity, alcoholism, school drop out rates, etc.

Get rid of all the Indian mascots - how does that really effect their life? Does it really improve it in any material way? I think not. Scotts are made fun of all the time as cheap or combative - from "Fat Bastard" to Grounds Keeper Willie; Southerners are a constant object of ridicule in popular entertainment; White guys can't jump, can't dance, aren't cool and are just uptight nerds - just go on with your life. These mascots weren't intended to be malicious and it takes someone pretty thinned skin to take them that way, IMHO.

P.S. has anyone else noticed the explosion in the native american populations since casinos became legal on Indian owned land?


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

*Chief Illiniwek returns*



Laxplayer said:


> Or the Fightin' Irish. I can see why Chief Wahoo and the Redskins would be offensive, but I'm still angry about Chief Illini. I'm glad North Dakota kept the Fighting Sioux.


https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/...em&ex=1193803200&en=c71523fa26f125a3&ei=5087


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

JRR said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/education/28mascot.html?em&ex=1193803200&en=c71523fa26f125a3&ei=5087%0A


*CHIEF!*

Thanks, JRR.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

So...he's back, but not really!?

Brian


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

Rocker said:


> P.S. has anyone else noticed the explosion in the native american populations since casinos became legal on Indian owned land?


Please let us know when it reaches the 100 plus million members that originally called this place home.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

cgc said:


> Please let us know when it reaches the 100 plus million members that originally called this place home.


Life sucks when you haven't invented metalurgy, gunpowder or the wheel......


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Ah yes, the wheel, gunpowder and metallurgy. North American peoples had in fact discovered copper and were making small artifacts of jewelry. I'm sure they would have gotten around to making copper axes like Oetzi and weaponry. The fact is, North American lithic projectile points are the sharpest known edges in the world with edges one molecule thick. Do that with SV 30 or O 2. The late knapping expert Don Crabtree fabricated a obsidian set for his own heart surgery. His doctor had to practise and retrain his hand muscles for the finer cuts. Fine surgical blades made of glass are now routinely used for finer scarification and less healing time. I'm afraid those Aztecs had a calender far more accurate than ours. You could argue they were early to the battle where more than a few Conquistadores were impaled inside their Castillian steel breast armour from darts hurled by Atl Atls. And if this gives you a headache chew on the ethno botanical ancestor of aspirin or calm down with some chocolate. Western hemispher peoples cultivated; Maize, potatos,chiles and a cornucopia of foodstufs and medicines we take for granted. Think of that when John Wayne and his 2 year USC education blows another italian stunt man out of a blanket covered McClelland.


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## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

Kav said:


> Lots of stuff


All fine and good, but at the end of the day what good did it do? To the victors go the spoils.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

No, to be accurate to the Victors goes the right to DESPOIL. And that includes histories justifying that victory by portraying the losers as mean savages sitting in the dark for the light of Rudyard Kipling's 'White Man's Burden.' Gunpowder was a chinese invention, metallurgy's earliest known beginings were in Africa and the wheel the Steppes or possibly the Fertile Crescent. That european peoples and their extended cultures in North America and Australia got to the top of the heap is no excuse to behave like the bottom.


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## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

Kav said:


> No, to be accurate to the Victors goes the right to DESPOIL. And that includes histories justifying that victory by portraying the losers as mean savages sitting in the dark for the light of Rudyard Kipling's 'White Man's Burden.' Gunpowder was a chinese invention, metallurgy's earliest known beginings were in Africa and the wheel the Steppes or possibly the Fertile Crescent. That european peoples and their extended cultures in North America and Australia got to the top of the heap is no excuse to behave like the bottom.


Because the humble Native was always pure in thought and action? Don't even start that bullshit. Even with something that you'd think would be cut and dry like slavery has a lot more nuance in it. In short, nobody got defeated without a heaping helping of bad judgement on their part, and more often than not, collaboration.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

FWIW, before the mean old Spaniards came to central America the pure as snow natives there were killing 20 to 30 THOUSAND people a year as human sacrifices. Not The Nicest People Around, revisionist history notwithstanding.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Gar, I seldom start 'bullshit' but I'll be more than happy to facilitate a realignment of your spincter muscles, since your mouth seems to be linked to them. 'Native Peoples' have been potrayed in many guises; the 'Noble Savage of Rousseau, various explanations for people not covered by euro or judeo christian- centric histories and cosmologies which included classifications as non humans, Lost tribes of Israel, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Welsh and Chinese, the inhuman savages of expansionist propaganda, the broken, slovenly peoples of little worth once their cultures were destroyed and replaced by poverty and related social ills such as alcoholism and again a return to an idealised view of peoples with superior relationships to their traditional territories and superior ecological stewardship. What those making such prejudiced summations utterly fail in, is the realisation these are simply people and cultures. Cultures, that are unique, with different values and expressions brought about by the long genious of humanity to express itself in many different ways. Civilizations come and go, world powers fade and are replaced. People, and more importantly, individual memories remain, sometimes with suprising resiliency. Contemporary americn Indians largely find sports mascots offensive. That the Seminole Nation chooses to market their ethnicity is a matter for Seminoles alone. If german, irish or other european ethnicities wish to take pride in self depreciating humour, again, that is a perogative. The unpleasant history of indian mascots comes out of racist stereotypes from the past. Contemporary native peoples have, by majority made it clear these are hurtfull. The decision of what is, or is not hurtfull does not lie in argument by the parties making the hurtfull presentations. For example and to close: The several times I passed through Martinez it reeked from the petroleum industry, was notable only for John Muir's gravesite and the residency of a former, and very brief roommate of mine named Jello Biafra. My worldview of Martinez is one of a rather backwater place to stop for gasoline and dirty restrooms that reflect the Gold Rush decorum of it's position on the stageroutes of that time.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

^^^ I wouldn't go so far as to say that native Americans practiced "superior ecological stewardship". Off the top of my head I can think of two large herbivorous species that were driven to extinction by over-hunting by native Americans: Wooly Mammoths and the North American Elk. I think any claim that they have had less ecological impact must be qualified by the fact that any hunter-gatherer, low population density civilization will have less impact than a high density one based on agriculture- but just due to the structure to the culture and NOT due to any conscious attempt at stewardship.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Please note I stated this was a currently held mythos of american indians and not mine. And again, setting anyone up as superior or inferior is stereotyping and racist. As I stated in an above post, the obsidian, bifacial dart point is the sharpest known artifact of mankind short of a laser. I excavated a pliostocene bison kill site in Wyoming and removed the point from within the ribcage. I promptly sliced my left palm open below the thumb. The thin scar is still visible. Pliostocene animals were already in trouble when the first wave of big game hunters migrated over from Siberia. They simply pushed the numbers past minimal sustainability. Nothing new, we are doing the same thing with current surviving resources like air,water and biodiversity. I'm going to go buy a black suit, yell BULLSHIT at everything and everybody and make lots of Money. I only need a sidekick and lots of half thought out strawdog subjects.


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## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

Kav said:


> My worldview of Martinez is one of a rather backwater place to stop for gasoline and dirty restrooms that reflect the Gold Rush decorum of it's position on the stageroutes of that time.


So in other words, you've driven past a section of town on the freeway? That's basically like saying that San Francisco is full of degenerates, that Oakland is nothing but gang members, Berkeley is filled with people suffering from brain damage due to drug abuse, and all of southern California is filled with people who are shallow drug using plastic surgery addicts..... And that Native Americans are all incredibly poor people living in horrible locations who drink too much alcohol and build taky casinos? Hopefully you recognize that none of that is entirely ture.

What you don't understand is that while I'm ambivalent about sports mascots (I don't really care much for sports), I also don't have any particular strong view about native americans, except for throwing up in my mouth when people start spouting off about how noble and peaceful they are in comparison to savage white people.

It's also irritating to the extent that people whine about stuff that happened centuries ago. Get over it. The land isn't going to be "given back", nobody's going to be given a special handout to "make things even". Everyone who bitches and moans about the past probably would hate it if we rolled back the clock, because they're comfortable life would not exist as they know it. And you know how I know you have a comfortable life: because you have the time and energy to ***** and moan about something that that happened over a century ago.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Gar, this thread is almost half as long as your total posts. You would do well to learn more about other posters before passing judgment based on a few posts. Where I posted a halcyon image of noble indians vs white guys seems to be in your own speed reading digestion of comments alone. But your comments are telling. People react to any crtiticism of the status quo by a quick, reeassuring grab on their psycic wallets. I hardly think your mortgage will be usurped by the native peoples of Martinez ( can you name them?) or a automatic deduction taken bi weekly for slavery reparations. Derogatory team mascots are a vestigal 'scalp' of the social victory of european centric peoples over natives. Take those away and you get all constipated worrying about what comes next.


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