# "They will punish employees..."



## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

My friend's daughter ordered a custom prom dress from an Asian manufacturer that she could barely squeeze into when it arrived and could not move in afterwards. Below is the response from the company (emphasis added).

"I had according your exact measurements to custom make it . Where had problem ? Pls sent the photos to me to show the problem . The factory need it . Becuase they had according your require to custom make it . *They want to find out the problem and find out the worker . They will punish employees if it is their fault.*Pls let me know . Thank you"

:crazy:

My friend now has visions of a twelve year old being beaten with a stick in some sweatshop. Or, does it reflect a linguistically clumsy commitment to quality control? :icon_scratch:

[Not men's fashion, but I know folks here order such custom work.]


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

LordSmoke said:


> "I had according your exact measurements to custom make it . Where had problem ? Pls sent the photos to me to show the problem . The factory need it . Becuase they had according your require to custom make it . *They want to find out the problem and find out the worker . They will punish employees if it is their fault.*Pls let me know . Thank you" ]


Hey, business is business! At some places, if you mess up, you get a warning and some coaching up. At others, you get a warning and a caning.

Judging by the customer service rep's command of the English language and grammar, I wonder how they could have possibly misinterpreted the dress order measurements?

Did the young lady respond with "On second thought, the dress is perfect.", since she must have asked herself, "Is a properly fitted dress worth blood on my hands?" This must be some diabolical plot to limit returns.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

In places other than the US people are often held accountable for their actions. So yes they probably will be punished for screwing up at their job. I don't understand why this has mental ties to physical abuse in your friend's mind.


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## crocto (Dec 12, 2012)

rsgordon said:


> In places other than the US people are often held accountable for their actions. So yes they probably will be punished for screwing up at their job. I don't understand why this has mental ties to physical abuse in your friend's mind.


What the hell? Have you not read about how places like Foxconn treat their employees? Being held accountable and being physically abused are two different things.


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## deandbn (Mar 6, 2006)

My take on this state of affairs is: You want cheap, you get cheap ill fitting garments. Why did your friends daughter not just get one made by the seamstress down the road, she could probably have used the money.
I agree with rsgordon as well, yes some people get fired, and some do get physically abused and beaten if they screw up. In some places there is also slavery.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

Buying union made goods in the US of A is a good solution, that is if little fingers around industrial sewing machines makes you squeamish.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

crocto said:


> What the hell? Have you not read about how places like Foxconn treat their employees? Being held accountable and being physically abused are two different things.


What the hell does Foxconn have to do with this? Does the word punish mean physically abuse automatically to you? That may be a hasty generalization of Asian business.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Buying union made goods in the US of A is a good solution, that is if little fingers around industrial sewing machines makes you squeamish.


USA baby


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

rsgordon said:


> What the hell does Foxconn have to do with this? Does the word punish mean physically abuse automatically to you? That may be a hasty generalization of Asian business.


It's hard to be sure, but physical chastisement at the least might well be a foreseeable outcome.

I know people who own factories in China, and if half of what goes on there was reported ...


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Supporting unions is a pretty good way to ensure that no employee is held accountable for poor results.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Tilton said:


> Supporting unions is a pretty good way to ensure that no employee is held accountable for poor results.


But are unions even allowed, in China?


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

Langham said:


> But are unions even allowed, in China?


Wikipedia seems to think so

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-China_Federation_of_Trade_Unions


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

rsgordon said:


> Wikipedia seems to think so


MUST be true then...:rolleyes2:


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

rsgordon said:


> Wikipedia seems to think so
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-China_Federation_of_Trade_Unions


Did you read the article? It is a government-owned modern extension of yellow unions.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Tilton said:


> Did you read the article? It is a government-owned modern extension of yellow unions.


Yes, I read the article. It says: 'It is the largest trade union in the world with 134 million members in 1,713,000 primary trade union organizations.[SUP][2][/SUP] The ACFTU is divided into 31 and 10 national industrial unions. Because members cannot elect their representatives freely, it does not classify as an independent trade union, but is rather an equivalent of the historical German Labour Front.'

It doesn't sound too promising an arrangement to me.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

Tilton said:


> Did you read the article? It is a government-owned modern extension of yellow unions.


I did not, I just saw 134 million members and got excited. It seems that the historical execution of other unionists and the illegality of competing unions in the "history" section seem to sum up the organization nicely.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

rsgordon said:


> I did not, I just saw 134 million members and got excited. It seems that the historical execution of other unionists and the illegality of competing unions in the "history" section seem to sum up the organization nicely.


Sometimes it's best to take these things with a pinch of salt, but the article goes on: 'The International Confederation of Free Trade Unions maintains the position that the ACFTU is not an independent trade union organisation...The ICFTU, noting that the ACFTU is not an independent trade union organisation and, therefore, cannot be regarded as an authentic voice of Chinese workers...etc etc'

Chinese workers are among the most downtrodden on the planet - that is the bottom line.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Hmmm. Americans being critical of the Chinese. Do you apply the same sympathies for your fellow Americans? Don't we have a 9% unemployment (not counting those that have stopped looking for work, and are working part time or "underemployed). The U.S. Unions are being stripped of power in many states, aren't they (i.e. Wisconsin). The U.S. makes pretty regualr use of "At Will" employment, so loss of a job as "punishment" is quite easy there as well. With the current U.S. economy who is going to tell the boss that they're not working 20-30 hours of overtime and risk losing a job? What benefits does the average American worker get versus the Chinese? I believe the average salary for a U.S. worker is going down while Chinese salaries are rising. Don't get me wrong, I understand China has a long, long way to go on human/worker rights but the U.S. isn't too far behind.


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## stephenkarl (Dec 21, 2011)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Buying union made goods in the US of A is a good solution, that is if little fingers around industrial sewing machines makes you squeamish.


Ignoring for a moment the "union made" provision, one must still be very careful of goods which state "Made in the USA". There are numerous documentaries of items from GAP, and other manufacturers, locating facilities in Guam and other US protectorates. These goods are legitimately labelled Made in the USA, but the conditions have been revealed to border on indentured servitude.



> Supporting unions is a pretty good way to ensure that no employee is held accountable for poor results.


I'm not sure if this was supposed to be cynical, sarcastic, or taken at face value...


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Americans might well be critical of the Chinese - there is no comparison to be made between workers' pay and rights in China as compared to the USA at present.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

justonemore said:


> Hmmm. Americans being critical of the Chinese. Do you apply the same sympathies for your fellow Americans? Don't we have a 9% unemployment (not counting those that have stopped looking for work, and are working part time or "underemployed). The U.S. Unions are being stripped of power in many states, aren't they (i.e. Wisconsin). The U.S. makes pretty regualr use of "At Will" employment, so loss of a job as "punishment" is quite easy there as well. With the current U.S. economy who is going to tell the boss that they're not working 20-30 hours of overtime and risk losing a job? What benefits does the average American worker get versus the Chinese? I believe the average salary for a U.S. worker is going down while Chinese salaries are rising. Don't get me wrong, I understand China has a long, long way to go on human/worker rights but the U.S. isn't too far behind.


I think the average US worker earns about 10x what the average Chinese worker earns. I don't think the nationwide standards of living are even comparable. I would be interested in you telling us what the real difference is in benefits for American and Chinese workers, though.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Yes, I already claimed workers rights problems exist. My point was there seems to be a sympathy towards benefits for those outside our homeland versus our own. That an American worker would be fired for messing up a major order is almost a given. Ruining a wedding day is a lawsuit and sympathy perhaps non-existant. Unions while advocated for the Chinese worker are finding themselves on the endangered listin the U.S. If an American worker has no health insurance for his family it's his fault, if it"s a Chinese worker it's the company's/country's fault. How many people advocate a minimum wage for China yet refuse it as policy in the U.S.?


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## crocto (Dec 12, 2012)

justonemore said:


> Hmmm. Americans being critical of the Chinese. Do you apply the same sympathies for your fellow Americans? Don't we have a 9% unemployment (not counting those that have stopped looking for work, and are working part time or "underemployed). The U.S. Unions are being stripped of power in many states, aren't they (i.e. Wisconsin). The U.S. makes pretty regualr use of "At Will" employment, so loss of a job as "punishment" is quite easy there as well. With the current U.S. economy who is going to tell the boss that they're not working 20-30 hours of overtime and risk losing a job? What benefits does the average American worker get versus the Chinese? I believe the average salary for a U.S. worker is going down while Chinese salaries are rising. Don't get me wrong, I understand China has a long, long way to go on human/worker rights but the U.S. isn't too far behind.


We have the republican party to thank for all this.

The word "punishment" used in connection with the way workers are treated in other countries, and even in the U.S., often involves physical abuse on the part of the employer that is why I brought up Foxconn.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

I think this thread should be moved to the interchange. I don't want to violate rule #2.


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## stephenkarl (Dec 21, 2011)

LordSmoke said:


> My friend's daughter ordered a custom prom dress from an Asian manufacturer that she could barely squeeze into when it arrived and could not move in afterwards. Below is the response from the company (emphasis added).
> 
> "I had according your exact measurements to custom make it . Where had problem ? Pls sent the photos to me to show the problem . The factory need it . Becuase they had according your require to custom make it . *They want to find out the problem and find out the worker . They will punish employees if it is their fault.*Pls let me know . Thank you"
> 
> ...


Would it be possible to have it altered locally such that the dress fits properly? That may be the ideal solution, given where things currently stand.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> I think this thread should be moved to the interchange. I don't want to violate rule #2.


Honestly, I think it should stay here. This is about clothing and people who buy clothing should accept the consequences of their purchases. In order to do so, and make an informed purchase, they need accurate information as to what those consequences are.

Rsgordon, for example, appears to have accepted that workers in China will be punished more harshly than workers in the USA. From the tone of his comment, it appears that he believes it is a good thing for workers to be held accountable in such a manner. I applaud his intellectual honesty, even if it disagrees with my own sense of ethics.

What I can't stand are the consumers who gobble up cheap chinese goods but refuse to acknowledge the reality of the means of production.

As a counter, what has been said above regarding the erosion of union made goods in the USA is correct. This is important because, in part, the union made label is an indicia of quality.

As much as I plug Hardwick, I would never argue that they make a better suit than Southwick. And the union is an important component of that quality control, ensuring that only skilled laborers are hired. Unions may drive up price, but you get what you pay for.

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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm sorry, this is all about politics and not really about clothing.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> I think this thread should be moved to the interchange. I don't want to violate rule #2.


Quite. I see your comment has been acted on, and quite rightly.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

L-feld said:


> Honestly, I think it should stay here. This is about clothing and people who buy clothing should accept the consequences of their purchases. In order to do so, and make an informed purchase, they need accurate information as to what those consequences are.
> 
> Rsgordon, for example, appears to have accepted that workers in China will be punished more harshly than workers in the USA. From the tone of his comment, it appears that he believes it is a good thing for workers to be held accountable in such a manner. I applaud his intellectual honesty, even if it disagrees with my own sense of ethics.
> 
> ...


In theory, yes, however, unions also serve to protect members from things such as firings for errors such as the one mentioned above. What comes to mind is the DC bus drive that ran a red light a killed a pedestrian. He was put on paid leave, failed a drug test, showing several illicit drugs in his system, and was subsequently fired. He had a few similar, bus less serious infractions in the past. The union forced WMATA to hire him back and give him a desk job for a fair bit more pay. I don't mind my USA made shoes being produced by unions, but there are limits to unions effectiveness in terms of quality control. Indeed, many unions (especially those not directly producing consumer goods) mainly serve to protect their members' job security at the acknowledged risk of not having the most skilled or qualified employee in a given position.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Everyone seems to have jumped on the "beaten with a stick" interpretation of "punish." If the employee made a mistake, that knowledge is important both for the education of the employee and maintenance of quality control. We learn from our mistakes. The "punishment" might simply be remaking the dress correctly on their own time or being docked for the cost of their mistake. I'm a doctor. If I screw up I'm likely to get sued. Judging from what I've seen innocent doctors go through in court I think any of us would settle for a beating.


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## johnpark11 (Oct 19, 2009)

Tilton said:


> Supporting unions is a pretty good way to ensure that no employee is held accountable for poor results.


 lol.


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## Reldresal (Oct 13, 2011)

cdavant said:


> Everyone seems to have jumped on the "beaten with a stick" interpretation of "punish." If the employee made a mistake, that knowledge is important both for the education of the employee and maintenance of quality control. We learn from our mistakes. The "punishment" might simply be remaking the dress correctly on their own time or being docked for the cost of their mistake. I'm a doctor. If I screw up I'm likely to get sued. Judging from what I've seen innocent doctors go through in court I think any of us would settle for a beating.


Perhaps there is a distinction between what you are working on and what a seamstress is working on? Perhaps we expect more care from someone working on our bodies than what covers our bodies? Perhaps I am wrong? Overusing "perhaps" is pretentious?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Tilton said:


> In theory, yes, however, unions also serve to protect members from things such as firings for errors such as the one mentioned above. What comes to mind is the DC bus drive that ran a red light a killed a pedestrian. He was put on paid leave, failed a drug test, showing several illicit drugs in his system, and was subsequently fired. He had a few similar, bus less serious infractions in the past. The union forced WMATA to hire him back and give him a desk job for a fair bit more pay. I don't mind my USA made shoes being produced by unions, but there are limits to unions effectiveness in terms of quality control. Indeed, many unions (especially those not directly producing consumer goods) mainly serve to protect their members' job security at the acknowledged risk of not having the most skilled or qualified employee in a given position.


It is easy to find examples of Unions misusing their power. It is also always easy to find isolated examples of anything to prove a point. However, the purpose of a Union is to protect the pay and conditions of it's members; as such they are good idea and are essential in representing employees and protecting them against rapacious employers. That they sometimes gain more power than they need is true. Some employers are more rapacious than they need to be as well.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

L-feld said:


> ....and the union is an important component of that quality control, ensuring that only skilled laborers are hired. Unions may drive up price, but you get what you pay for.


When I am hiring an electrician to wire my home, I agree.

When the city removes my garbage, or I apply for a permit, I do not!!


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

WouldaShoulda said:


> When I am hiring an electrician to wire my home, I agree.
> 
> When the city removes my garbage, or I apply for a permit, I do not!!


Well, since my futile attempt at keeping this discussion centered on clothing quality failed...

Unions are useful from a consumer standpoint when dealing with skilled labor. An electrician (or a tailor) is a skilled laborer. A garbageman is not.

In both cases, unions represent workers in collective bargaining with employers. The necessity of collective representation is really a different conversation. I'm sure you can guess which side I'm on, but I'd rather talk about consumer goods.

A union shop is going to produce better products. There might be some examples of really great tailors in nonunion shops, and union shops will hire a few dolts. But the bottom line ia that the union shop will have union accreditation and apprenticeship requirements.

To make a compariaon; I'm a lawyer. I've met some really stupid lawyers, ones that must have passed the bar by some fluke on the scantron sheet. I've also met some outstanding paralegals who know a ton about the law and can do a lot of the things a lawyer can.

But the average lawyer is probably better auited to your legal needs than the average paralegal. Why? The lawwyer has had more training and has probably been forces to apprentice with an experienced attorney.

UNITEHERE does the same thing with their master tailors.

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