# No brown in town -- what does it mean?



## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

I hear a lot about how in London gentlemen don't "wear brown in town". Of course I understand that one should only wear grey and navy suits with black shoes if one is doing business in the Town of London, but does the no brown rule extend to casual dress, too? If one is _not_ working on a weekday in downtown London, would he be remiss to wear a pair of khaki pants and brown leather loafers? How about a pair of jeans and brown leather shoes at a casual restaurant, bar, or club? Is black the only shoe color which is truly "proper" in London?


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

I've never been to London; however, frowning upon someone for wearing brown shoes seems inane.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

How so? It's not hard to see why country shoes would be frowned upon in one of the oldest extant professional regions. 

OP, "town" refers not to greater London but to the City.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Take a reverse look at this. If you are riding crosscountry in a pre railroad british mailcoach, there is dust, mud and even snow. Highly polished or even patent black leather goods fare worse than browns in sturdier tannings that acquire the varied antiquing we love through use and exposure. This is why even today most driving harness itself is divided between brown working harness and black show harness. The city, with it's Queen Victoria prescription for mourning dress and the grime of coal powered industrialisation went black. Take a look at the original Conan Doyle illustrations for Sherlock Holmes. That deerstalker went with brown shoes while the tophat went with black. It's elementary!


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

By statute, men are only permitted to wear black oxfords, dark grey or navy suits and bowlers while in London.

Or -

It's something written by an American to be clever.

While I'm very fond of many elements of English dress that Americans have adopted and Americanized, the near worship of an illlusory ideal of English dress is, to me, silly. Last time I was in London, the average Englishman is likely to be as badly dressed as the average American. Black shoes only? Socks and shoes would be fine, thank you.

To me at least, the age when Englishmen were automatically the best dressed in the world is long gone.The only Englishman with whom I'm familiar who is always brilliantly dressed is Charles. God save the monarchy.:icon_smile:

Sadly for me, the age of English style spanned a period roughly from the 1930's through the mid-1960's and has since then been generally in decline.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

You should be able to dress appropriately casually for the city of London while avoiding earth-tones if you choose. I would think that a trilby, jacket, pocket square, tie, wool slacks, and leather-soled shoes in dark shades should be fine.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Flanderian said:


> By statute, men are only permitted to wear black oxfords, dark grey or navy suits and bowlers while in London.
> 
> Or -
> 
> ...


To this day, though, I find it much easier to put together a good-looking outfit that doesn't break the bank from London shops than anywhere I've been here in the US. The general public are as badly dressed as we, but there are far more options for one who would behave in the more traditional vein.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

JibranK said:


> To this day, though, I find it much easier to put together a good-looking outfit that doesn't break the bank from London shops than anywhere I've been here in the US. The general public are as badly dressed as we, but there are far more options for one who would behave in the more traditional vein.


Paradoxically, I agree completely. The are many wonderful articles of clothing that the British produce. Individually they are exceptional, and collectively remarkable. The British shoe industry is a treasure. IMO, it was always significantly superior to the U.S. industry, and since all but perhaps two U.S. manufacturers have gone, it is no longer worth comparing the two.

My remark has to do with my opinion of the average level of taste and how a man puts himself together. Much of what seems popular now in Britain, from the cut on down, is not attractive to me and I do not consider it to be in good taste. But I feel the same about U.S. clothes that attempt to imitate current British fashion, but then do it even worse.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

brokencycle said:


> I've never been to London; however, frowning upon someone for wearing brown shoes seems inane.


It is a standard of the business uniform and is part of being taken seriously there. A sign of being professional and ready for business, like wearing a tie or a suit. While it may have been "frowned upon" in the 30s, these days it is more a case of fitting in and respecting the traditions of the hosts.



Flanderian said:


> While I'm very fond of many elements of English dress that Americans have adopted and Americanized, the near worship of an illlusory ideal of English dress is, to me, silly.
> 
> Last time I was in London, the average Englishman is likely to be as badly dressed as the average American. Black shoes only? Socks and shoes would be fine, thank you.





Orsini said:


> You should be able to dress appropriately casually for the city of London while avoiding earth-tones if you choose. I would think that a trilby, jacket, pocket square, tie, wool slacks, and leather-soled shoes in dark shades should be fine.


Undoubtedly true for both points above. There are many people in London these days working in many industries that do not demand suits (therefore there is a much more diverse range of clothes available and worn). But there are many that do. There are many exceptions, but there are also many situations where you will look a little odd and out of place without black shoes.


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

"No brown" is because some English still have standards, unlike those here who like wearing light brown brogues with business suits  I joke.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

I suggest 'town' and 'country' are not so much places as activities. 

'Town' includes business, ceremonies of various kinds, memorial services etc Black shoes are appropriate for these wherever they are taking place.

'Country' (as well as obvious country pursuits) might include shopping, visiting a gallery or museum, ordinary church going etc Brown shoes are perfectly acceptable for these pursuits even in the middle of London (and I would add even with a blue suit).

See discussion at:
https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=71237&highlight=brown


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

What Trimmer said.

I would add that here black shoes convey a sense of seriousness and propriety that brown do not. I love brown shoes of all shades and prefer them to black because to me they are more pleasing. However I would never conduct a funeral or a wedding wearing anything but black shoes - the occasion demands it. I would never conduct a service of Holy Communion in anything but black shoes, again because the occasion demands it IMO. However I would conduct a family service in very dark brown shoes or very dark burgundy shoes if my suit was grey or navy respectively. 

I imagine the City is the same though I've never had anything to do with it. 

I don't know whether the above is self evident but if not then it is deep in the english psyche that black shoes speak of a person ( usually a man) who knows what he's about and is competant at his job. I am not sure the same really applies to women in senior positions.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Leather man said:


> I am not sure the same really applies to women in senior positions.


I would say that it does, in the same situations as for men.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Rossini said:


> I would say that it does, in the same situations as for men.


Thanks for that info Rossini - good to keep learning :icon_smile:


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## Sir Royston (Nov 10, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> I've never been to London; however, frowning upon someone for wearing brown shoes seems inane.


In London, going to a restaurant in jeans is an offense punishable by your head on a spike in the Tower of London!!
sadly not true.. if only

RBH


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

It seems to me that black, grey, navy etc. are simply more formal than brown and other earth colours. When the function speaks louder than the person, it's black. When the person speaks louder than the function, it's brown.

Also, traditionally there was a sharp contrast between country and city pursuits (outdoor sports, horses, managing the estate, etc. versus office work, politics, gambling, clubbing, theatregoing, etc.). You dressed accordingly.

Of course today these distinctions are blurred.


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## Frog in Suit (Mar 27, 2007)

For what it's worth, one sees men in London, usually older ones perhaps, up only for the day, and dressed in tweeds (or other season-appropriate suiting) with brown shoes. They are clearly not on their way to an office so why should they wear a "city suit"?

During Royal Ascot, one also sees men in morning suits in central London, either on their way to the races or back from them.

One should probably not agonize too much...

Frog in Suit:icon_smile:


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Frog in Suit said:


> For what it's worth, one sees men in London, usually older ones perhaps, up only for the day, and dressed in tweeds (or other season-appropriate suiting) with brown shoes. They are clearly not on their way to an office so why should they wear a "city suit"?
> 
> :


If they were going to dine out at the Savoy (or at a gentleman's club) or go to the opera, they would look out of place. It they were just visiting or shopping, then of course there would be no need for black. 
Also, academics traditionally dress "country" even when at work (maybe because they don't consider what they do to be "work").


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Trimmer said:


> I suggest 'town' and 'country' are not so much places as activities.
> 
> 'Town' includes business, ceremonies of various kinds, memorial services etc Black shoes are appropriate for these wherever they are taking place.
> 
> 'Country' (as well as obvious country pursuits) might include shopping, visiting a gallery or museum, ordinary church going etc Brown shoes are perfectly acceptable for these pursuits even in the middle of London (and I would add even with a blue suit).


I agree with this, and believe it may have been true since around the 1930s or so. Tweed coats with knickerbockers and colourful argyle socks were popularly worn in town early last century as casual wear. All in an age when morning dress was still worn as _proper_ town wear. And, we all know that brown as a colour has no place at all with morning clothes - which, I suspect, is the real origin of the term "no brown in town".


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## Frog in Suit (Mar 27, 2007)

Rich said:


> If they were going to dine out at the Savoy (or at a gentleman's club) or go to the opera, they would look out of place. It they were just visiting or shopping, then of course there would be no need for black.


You are right, of course. I should have made it clear that I only meant "in the daytime". One would then change into a dark lounge suit if dining at a restaurant.

Frog in Suit


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

Rich said:


> Also, academics traditionally dress "country" even when at work (maybe because they don't consider what they do to be "work").


Or because Oxford and Cambridge are both 'in the country'. The English cunningly kept troublesome students away from the capital to avoid demonstrations and 'direct action' (it took the French until 1968 to learn this).


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

I am attending a function at the Houses of Parliament in a couple of weeks' time; it will be interesting to report back on the shoe situation, which I will try to remember to do!


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## Frog in Suit (Mar 27, 2007)

Trimmer said:


> Or because Oxford and Cambridge are both 'in the country'. The English cunningly kept troublesome students away from the capital to avoid demonstrations and 'direct action' (it took the French until 1968 to learn this).


Students have always been troublesome. There were riots in the Middle Ages. Everything has tended to be kept centrally in Paris, although there are old universities in other places (Montpellier for instance). The French Monarchy spent its time fighting off centrifugal forces so tried to keep everything they could near the center.
Frog in Suit


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

Frog in Suit said:


> Students have always been troublesome. There were riots in the Middle Ages. Everything has tended to be kept centrally in Paris, although there are old universities in other places (Montpellier for instance). The French Monarchy spent its time fighting off centrifugal forces so tried to keep everything they could near the center.
> Frog in Suit


Exactly. Oxford and Cambridge are both about a day's ride from London. They were the only universities in England until the nineteenth century by which time railways and telegraph meant that students had to be controlled in other ways.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

It's interesting to see so many interpretations of this saying from people who have never even heard it before!

This is a VERY old expression (at least 70 years) which comes from the same stock as 'Purple and gold for the overbold' and 'Red and green should not be seen' etc. 
There are loads of them and they are all very much out of date.
It's all a bit 'Children should be seen and not heard'.

Some of these old rules do still make sense now but not the one about brown in town.
Chocolate brown suits are all the rage in London at the moment and that doesn't look like changing for a while.
Of course if you work in a very conservative profession (Barrister etc.) then you probably wouldn't get away with brown but it all depends on the rules laid down by your employers.

You can't go wrong with Grey or Navy and the vast majority of suits sold are in these 2 colours but brown is certainly popular in this town.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Yes, but the last time I was in London, I saw that the black lounge suit plague had also afflicted that city. Brown lounges in town are almost equally as offensive in my opinion.


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## Frog in Suit (Mar 27, 2007)

I would never wear a chocolate-brown suit anywhere. I was referring only to "tweedy" (beige-ish, greenish, muddy...) browns. I do not like plain navy either (purely my own taste, that), except in a blazer; my only navy suit has visible, if not outright bold, pinstripes. My only black suits are my DJ and my morning suit coat.
As to "Children must be seen and not heard", as the father of two teen-age boys, I can only sigh wistfully...

Frog in Suit


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

I don't have a problem with chocolate brown suits.
They can look very smart if they are dark enough and they fit well of course.

I don't put them in the same bracket as black suits which seem to be a very off-the-peg choice.
Plain black suits remind of the Armani suits of the 80's and I certainly wouldn't wear one.


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

*Subfusc*

Both Oxford and Cambridge still both require the wearing of subfusc- which specifies a dark blue or dark grey suit for men, along with appropriate academic gowns- on certain occasions and for exams. A friend of mine wore a light grey suit for one of his exams, and was told that he should not wear it again, it wasn't dark enough.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Out of curiosity, which college did you attend? I'm applying to Magdalen this October and visiting the college in exactly a week, actually.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Rossini said:


> It is a standard of the business uniform and is part of being taken seriously there. A sign of being professional and ready for business, like wearing a tie or a suit. While it may have been "frowned upon" in the 30s, these days it is more a case of fitting in and respecting the traditions of the hosts.


I'm talking about just being in the city with non-black shoes on. Not for business.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

There is little to do in the City other than business. Remember that it's only one square mile!


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

I was at Merton, which is one of the more traditional colleges. I would put Magdalen in that category as well. Subfusc is a university regulation, so for exams and matriculation it is required for all students. If you go to Magdalen make sure you see the deer park and Fellows Garden, they are both beautiful.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

I had considered Merton strongly, but swung toward Magdalen because of the deer park, Addison's Walk and the college's proximity to the departments that I would frequent (I'm applying for PPE) 

It's also near All Souls where I hope to be a Fellow someday


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Rossini said:


> I am attending a function at the Houses of Parliament in a couple of weeks' time; it will be interesting to report back on the shoe situation, which I will try to remember to do!


I would love to hear, I read that Gordon Brown is a horrible dresser, but seemingly by choice with a message behind it at times??

Our own PM wears the right clothes most often, he just wears them poorly. But at least with 317 kgs of gadgets in his pockets as our past PM did!


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Sator said:


> Yes, but the last time I was in London, I saw that the black lounge suit plague had also afflicted that city. Brown lounges in town are almost equally as offensive in my opinion.


The black lounge is just a stamp of style that reads - "I'm too confused by this clothes stuff to choose patterns or colors." Or they think it is cool-arty-actory-smacky more often than not.

At least that is what it always said in LA, and NYC. No one has blared that publicly in media yet, but when someone does that trend will stop and people will begin thinking about their clothes more.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Sir Royston said:


> In London, going to a restaurant in jeans is an offense punishable by..........
> RBH


:--)

The first time I walked into the Royal Automobile Club on Pall Mall, I was wearing brown shoes (deep chili actually). The door man and the Concierge both made note by means of a quick glance at my feet. As we asked for the pool and Turkish baths, and mentioned we were just visiting for a week on the way home from elsewhere the tone lifted several notches.
It was odd to experience the lightening speed at which they sized me up (or down).


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Rich said:


> Also, academics traditionally dress "country" even when at work (maybe because they don't consider what they do to be "work").


But this used not to be the case, as you can clearly see from old photographs. Witness too the white tie worn with academic dress.


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## Errowen (Nov 2, 2006)

*Brown at your peril*



Bonhamesque said:


> ...Of course if you work in a very conservative profession (Barrister etc.) then you probably wouldn't get away with brown...


I am a barrister and solicitor. In the former of those two roles, my garb is prescribed by professional standards. (On one occasion in the 1980's, I was called unepectedly to speak to a family law matter, and rushed off to to the courthouse. My robes were in my car, but I was wearing brown sandals and had no other footware. Her Honour spent the entire hearing staring at my feet, or so I thought, and sent her clerk out afterwards to warn me not to reappear unless properly attired. Better that than having the judge refuse to hear me, which she might have done.)
As a solicitor, I wear tans and browns only when I have no client meetings or negotiations on my schedule. I would NEVER wear a brown suit, or even brown shoes, into a negotiation of any kind. It is essential that one's physical presence be as strong as possible, but never over the top -- that is just a reality of negotiating. I will sometimes substitute cordovans, if I think I have a fairly impregnable position and want to appear open or conciliatory, or if I want my opinions to appear more progressive or modern than those of my opponent. These are more or less subconscious aspects of persuasion -- human nature is a wondrous thing.


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## cdelam (Jun 11, 2008)

*Prefessional dress in the technology sector*

I work at a Xerox plant in Oregon, as a software test technician. Most of the other techs wear what I believe to be the worst examples of "casual work dress." This includes (..but is not limited to..) sandals, those baggy surfer shorts, T-shirts bearing some sort of advertising logo, or a print shirt.

Now, one might write this off as a result of low wages, but this sort of attire is also worn by most of the engineering staff; folks who are pulling down the $80k plus salaries. Unless you examine the ID badges worn by all of the employees, you would have no way of knowing who is who.

I wear a very understated black paisley vest, over a button down shirt, black or gray trousers, black boots, and my 8/4 tweed (when outside of the building). You would not believe the stares I routinely receive.

I would love an opportunity to wear my mourning coat and homburg to work.............just once. :icon_smile_big:


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

cdelam said:


> I would love an opportunity to wear my mourning coat and homburg to work.............just once. :icon_smile_big:


Your _*what*_ coat? With _*what*_ hat?


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*If you wore a mourning coat....*

it must be the one you wore when you were married?


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

cdelam said:


> ...I wear a very understated black paisley vest, over a button down shirt, black or gray trousers, black boots, and my 8/4 tweed (when outside of the building). You would not believe the stares I routinely receive...


Actually, I would. I regulaly wear stiff collars and suits with DB peak lapel waistcoats in downtown Portland, which I have never seen anyone else here wear. I am glad to see at least one other person in the rose city has some sense of standards. :icon_smile:


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## Errowen (Nov 2, 2006)

*Academic white tie*



Bogdanoff said:


> But this used not to be the case, as you can clearly see from old photographs. Witness too the white tie worn with academic dress.


I am unfamiliar with the "white tie worn with academic dress" and wondering what it might be. I take it you are not referring to legal tabs.


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

At Oxford for Matriculation, exams and graduation, students are required to where a white bow tie.


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