# ebay website 'The Wizard of Ahs'--??



## John S

Has anyone had experience in purchasing from the ebay seller The Wizard of Aahs? [https://stores.ebay.com/The-Wizard-of-Aahs]. I can't recall if anyone in this forum has previously discussed the site. I am ever mindful of the adages "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't" and "There's no such thing as a free lunch" [or, perhaps I should say, "There's no such thing as a deeply discounted gourmet lunch"). However, the feedback for the suits and slacks sold is 100% positive, and glowing at that. If there's a catch, you'd expect that someone in the very large 'feedback pool' would complain. I think there were in excess of 6,000 feedback messages, ALL of which looked very, very enthusiastic. And the site claims the suit jackets are canvas, not fused. At those prices I'm very curious to know what's going on. [And the website promises the right to a full refund, less a 20% restocking charge]. Has anyone taken the [relatively inexpensive] plunge on one of their suits?.

don't hesitate to download the eBay Cashback Sidebar to get up to 5% cashback on ebay purchase
Cashback eBay Purchases 

-John S


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## crazyquik

All thier stuff seems to be from companies with made-up Italian sounding names.

Don't confuse Brioni with Baroni or Mantoni.

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Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## Badrabbit

This site comes up about twice a month. The suits are generally reagarded as $300 suits being tauted as $1200 suits. Don't waste your money.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## rssmsvc

He use to say he was some store in Beverly Hills and when I was visting the area I emailed him for the store location and he went off and basically became crazy.

For the money he charges wait for a known brand that you have studied in your favorite store.


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## Fogey

Mantoni? [:0]


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## Bob Loblaw

And dont forget your BALLBAND shoes. An ebay exclusive!


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## John S

Gentlemen,
Each of your comments make good sense. However, how do you explain the large numbers of very enthusiastic buyers, at 100%? Is there any way on ebay a seller can 'create' his own positive feedback? If not, how can that many buyers be that ecstatic?
John S

John Edmunds


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## Badrabbit

> quote:_Originally posted by John S_
> 
> Gentlemen,
> Each of your comments make good sense. However, how do you explain the large numbers of very enthusiastic buyers, at 100%? Is there any way on ebay a seller can 'create' his own positive feedback? If not, how can that many buyers be that ecstatic?
> John S
> 
> John Edmunds


Point 1: Most people couldn't tell a full canvas suit from a monkey.

Point 2: Most of the American public thinks that Hart Schaffner and Marx is the best suit money can buy.

Point 3: They are happy because they think they got a $1200 suit for $300. They didn't.

Point 4: People who do know something about suit construction and quality are not going to buy a brand they have never heard of online. Most of the members of this site could name every decent suit maker that is readily available. An Italian sounding name is not going to convince those who are "in the know."

And yes, feedback can be faked by signing up with multiple names and making purchases from oneself. It is usually easy to detect this as the buyer usually has multiple sales to just a few buyers and the buyers have really low feedback numbers (total feedback not % positive). I have even heard that there are people who, for a fee, will use hundreds of accounts to build one's reputation over a short period (a month or so). It's a way to build a reputation one doesn't deserve and it also keeps the negatives from affecting your percentage scores too badly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Fabrizio

I know absolutely nothing about the mechanics of ebay transactions, but is there any possibility that some of the feedback is fake?

EDIT: Sorry -- just saw BadRabbit's reply

Carmine


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## petro

> quote:_Originally posted by John S_
> 
> I think there were in excess of 6,000 feedback messages, ALL of which looked very, very enthusiastic.


Most buyers and sellers on eBay are enthusiastic. Overly so.

They think the more ! the put in a sentence the better.

Motrons.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## JeffT

I was just reading all of these comments from the members here and I find some of them quite amusing.

To begin with what is a $2000 suit? Go into Neiman Marcus and there is a Zegna for $2195, hit Saks Fifth off or Century 21 in New York and there is the same suit for $600. Get lucky and find an obscure discount outlet and I have seen them for $300. What do you all think it hard costs are to make even the most expensive Italian designer suit? I'll tell you. Under $200 depending on the cloth.

I am The Wizard of Aahs https://www.thewizardofaahs.com/ and would like to clear up the misinformation posted out of ignorance from a few armchair critics that have never touched, held or even seen any of my garments.

The MSRP is set by the manufacturer hence "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Pricing" but often times it can be set by the store itself. There is no guideline or standard in a free enterprise economy so in all honesty it's bullsh*t in my humble opinion.

Baroni makes three different lines of quality suits. High end Italian I would put up against any Canali, second grade Italian and the exact same suit assembled in Asia at an affordable price but with the same quality. The Enzo is just as nice as Baroni's high end.

Every Baroni suit features either full or half canvas fronts as well as Enzo Tovare suits so it might be wise not to post public comments from a point of ignorance.

Ebay's feedback cannot be fudged and that is a fact. It would be impossible for us to bribe over 7000 unique customers to rave about our quality without one to complain and almost 40% to return as repeat customers that are so pleased some have written reference letters--> https://stores.ebay.com/The-Wizard-of-Aahs/WHAT-ARE-PEOPLE-SAYING-ABOUT-US.html You may make your our conclusions from there.

The main question I see is "Are these really $2000 suits?" The answer is "They are if you want them to be". They look, feel and wear better than some of the Armani and Zegna I bought "Back in the day" when I worked as a CEO/President of a medium sized real estate development company requiring a suit.

From where I sit now I feel anyone spending $2000+ for a suit has more money than he has sense, but then again some people feel better paying full retail in a store with chandlers and marble floors and just love that well known designer label they can flash to try and impress other with.

I do not feel any suit is worth $2000+. If you spend that kind of money you are not only paying for the suit but also paying for advertising budgets, extremely high executive and CEO salaries, fancy boutiques and have you thought about what it costs to have George Clooney wear it in Vanity Fair? LOL! The small boutique labels I sell do not have any of this overhead and neither do I hence the drasticallly low prices.

Some would rather have the same quality without the label and save 70%-80%. Ask yourself which one of those buyers fits you. Luckily for me there are abundance of buyers who would rather have a suit constructed with the same fabric and quality of an Armani or Zegna without the label for pennies on the dollar.

For all of you critics out there I pose this offer. Contact me on Ebay, mention this site and indicate your budget and the quality of suit you have an interest in. I will not only guarantee satisfaction but if you are not happy or do not agree with everything I promised, I will send UPS (Domestic only) to pick up the suit from your doorstep no questions asked and refund 100%.

For the record:

1.) Firado, Rizzoli and Mantoni are not hand stitched nor are they Italian made.

2.)There is no such thing as an Angelino Cavelli or Tessuit suits. They are Firado or Rizzoli suits with fake paper tags and the seller Prosavings2006 has allegedly been removed from Ebay for fraudulently selling them as Italian made.

3.) Palasso, Leveti, Enzo and most Baroni's are "Made in Italy" not China and are of impressive quality.

4.) Rizzoli, Mantoni, and Firado are either made in China or Korea and are Palasso's and Enzo's secondary Asian made lines.

5.) No one has every asked to visit my store and I became angry. I am sorry whomever posted that must have me mixed up with another seller. I do not have a retail outlet and I get asked this about 10 times a day so my response is on template.

6.) I agree some of the Ballband shoes are not of my taste but I sell one heck of a lot of them so who am I to judge? :icon_smile_wink:


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## acidicboy

interesting. any takers?


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## mano

He's callin' you out, Badrabbit! 


Maybe the Wizard would send Andy or one of the moderators a full canvased Baroni or an Enzo Tovare. They'll offer a knowledgeable and even-handed assessment. 

The Wizard may end up as a Selected Merchant!


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## GMF

mano said:


> He's callin' you out, Badrabbit!
> 
> Maybe the Wizard would send Andy or one of the moderators a full canvases Baroni or an Enzo Tovare. They'll offer a knowledgeable and even-handed assessment.
> 
> The Wizard may end up as a Selected Merchant.


I bought one of his Firado suits awhile back. It's a fused suit (he never claimed otherwise) but the material and workmanship are first rate. I'd easily put it on par with the $500 suits I've seen at Jos A Banks, though the style itself is different. For $175 it was a good deal, IMO. I always get compliments when I wear it.


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## Wayfarer

I think the idea of having one of the suits in question examined by one of our impartial resident experts is smashing. This could be a big win for everyone if they are as high quality as the Wiz says, as not only will his sales surely skyrocket, but AAAC members will have another means to buy high quality, moderatly prices suits.

That said, is it not amazing the number of ex-CEOs and winners of federal lawsuits that sell things on Ebay?


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## tripreed

Yes, this really is an interesting turn of events. I can't wait to see how it shall work out.


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## Kav

YOU GET MORE SALAMI WITH MODIGLIANNI. I wish I could recall the painter's name of these pieces whenever the eyetaliano suitmakers come out.


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## Buffalo

mano said:


> He's callin' you out, Badrabbit!
> 
> Maybe the Wizard would send Andy or one of the moderators a full canvases Baroni or an Enzo Tovare. They'll offer a knowledgeable and even-handed assessment.
> 
> The Wizard may end up as a Selected Merchant.


Great idea.


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## JeffT

I am all "In" and will even send Andy a shirt and tie to check out! My shirts are "Off the Hook" as my kids would say. :icon_smile: 

I didn't become #1 on Ebay because I sell crap. LOL! Every thing I sell is hand picked by me although some my not be my taste or quality I have to fill the needs of not only a high school kid's first suit, as well as a huge clientele of repeat buyers that are professionals/executives.

The ONLY Asian suit I know of with a canvas front is Baroni and they charge for it. Even though handbasting only adds approx. $35 to the cost of the assembly Baroni charges almost double for a similar suit by Firado but the quality shows. I'll send Andy more than one to critique. How's that fellows?


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## smr

Value City gets some of the Italian made brands that few have heard of, and they sell them for approximatley $170, and often for less. At Christmas we discussed one of these sellers who advertised one of these Italian brands as a $2000 suit, and I saw the exact same brand (cannot remember the name now) at Value City when I was shopping for a steamer. Was made in Italy, but selling for $169, with a retail price listed of $350 or less. Fully fused. I'll check later to see if I can find the details with the search engine.


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## GMF

WALTER123 said:


> The ONLY Asian suit I know of with a canvas front is Baroni and they charge for it. Even though handbasting only adds approx. $35 to the cost of the assembly Baroni charges almost double for a similar suit by Firado but the quality shows.


Is Firado the Asian brand of Baroni?


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## JeffT

I am still amazed why everyone is so caught up with the price tag on the suit instead of the quality of construction and even more so the cloth! Why do you give a hoot as to how much a suit is priced at discount retailer? 

I can give you the address of a Thrift store here in LA where Neiman Marcus sometimes dumps brand new top labels. Does that mean the $1800 St.John jacket I purchased for $9 is of lesser quality? 

I have purchased brand new Hugo Boss for $19.95 and even a brand new Oxxford blazer for $9.95! Does this mean Hugo Boss and Oxxford now make poor quality garments? Come on guys keep your eyes on the ball. :icon_smile_wink:


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## JeffT

Firado is the Asian brand of Palasso. Palasso makes three lines.
Palasso is the Italian made 100% wool, Firado is the same suit and sometimes the same fabric but made in either China or Korea and Rizzoli is their tetron/viscose blend or linen suit. All are fused.

I would love to stay and chat but this kid has to go back to work.... :icon_smile:


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## rnoldh

*Still "Thrifting After All These Years"!*



WALTER123 said:


> I am still amazed why everyone is so caught up with the price tag on the suit instead of the quality of construction and even more so the cloth! Why do you give a hoot as to how much a suit is priced at discount retailer?
> 
> I can give you the address of a Thrift store here in LA where Neiman Marcus sometimes dumps brand new top labels. Does that mean the $1800 St.John jacket I purchased for $9 is of lesser quality?
> 
> I have purchased brand new Hugo Boss for $19.95 and even a brand new Oxxford blazer for $9.95! Does this mean Hugo Boss and Oxxford now make poor quality garments? Come on guys keep your eyes on the ball. :icon_smile_wink:


This has been a great thread. I await Andy's opinion of Walter's wares. Of course Andy hasn't been heard from yet!

I must admit much of what Walter says makes absolute sense. We all know about the "Name value" added to any well known brand. I doubt a $2000 Armani is 10 times better than a $200 Baroni. Of course we must define "Better". And is a $6000 Kiton 30 times better than the Baroni. There is a different mind-set as Walter points out. A lot of "value" is in the perception of the buyer! Does someone overpay for a $6000 Kiton? Does someone "steal" a Baroni for $200?

When I was a kid(many years ago), it was said that the 2 happiest car owners were those with Cadillacs and Volkswagons. I think there is an analogy here. Someone that is able to purchase and appreciate a Kiton suit will probably be very happy. And those that buy these Baroni's are probably very happy too! I don't think Walter's Ebay feedback could be faked or misrepresented with such a large # of responses.

What did get my attention was the quote above. Apparently, Walter has the time to occasionally go to a thrift and "virtually steal" some very good names like Oxxford. Where is that thrift with deals like that, Walter?


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## Chuck Franke

I'd argue with the 'no such thing as a $2000' suit proposition and 'they are if you want them to be' is what a former CFO would say, not a CEO (wink).

...But the gentleman has the testicular fortitude to stick his hand into the lion's mouth and challenge anyone here to check out his merchandise and see how it compares. Hard to argue with that.

Walter, there are plenty of folks here with intimate knowledge of suit construction. Surely you have one or two suits in inventory that have been snagged on a fingernail or some such. If you will donate two of your better suits I'll donate a Zegna and an Armani with a flaw and we'll let a pro go over them to see how they compare in workmanship. That's a bold offer you made and worthy of respect.

Looking at the gents feedback on eBay it is indeed excellent. The only question I would ask is why the item numbers are nearly all private? That's NOT an accusation, I think I know why you do that and if I'm right there is a good reason you might do that.

Respectfully,
Chuck


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## JeffT

Tee, hee, hee.... My name is Jeff. Walter is my cockatoo. :icon_smile: After I lost everything a few years ago I got my start n Ebay selling first my old suits, then mapping out every thrift store in LA that would possibly get end of season/returned merchandise from department stores. I haven't been to a thrift store in years but if you guys are interested I canb dig up my old files and give you their addresses. :icon_smile_wink: Two of them are on Robertson Street in Beverly Hills walking distance from the famous Ivy resturant

It grew so big I needed a constant supply of inventory so that is where my manufacturers came in. I walk the MAGIC show twice a year always looking for quality garments I would wear myself and this is how I found Baroni, Enzo and Palasso.

I changed most of my auctions to private because my competition could see what I was selling the most of, what final price I would settle for and/or what special deals I was making. 

Additionally, I have a had a few cases where customers were contacted after the sale and were given misinformation about their garment causing me headaches in educating the buyer as to the truth. The old adage " If you can't make money, make trouble" was happening so I had to make changes.

I have been in contact with Andy via email and have offered to send him my wares so we'll see what happens from there. :icon_smile:


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## JeffT

Chuck Franke said:


> I'd argue with the 'no such thing as a $2000' suit proposition and 'they are if you want them to be' is what a former CFO would say, not a CEO (wink).
> 
> The reason I said that is because it does not cost Armani more in hard costs to make a suit than it cost Baroni or Enzo. Just because it has a price tag attached for $2K does not mean it's worth 2K expecially when it costs less than $200 to make so it is really just all a matter of perception. Is a Versace suit at Versace in Ceaser Palace Forums Shops worth 6K? In my humble opinion I say not just no, but Hell no!


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## pt4u67

WALTER123 said:


> Chuck Franke said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd argue with the 'no such thing as a $2000' suit proposition and 'they are if you want them to be' is what a former CFO would say, not a CEO (wink).
> 
> The reason I said that is because it does not cost Armani more in hard costs to make a suit than it cost Baroni or Enzo. Just because it has a price tag attached for $2K does not mean it's worth 2K expecially when it costs less than $200 to make so it is really just all a matter of perception. Is a Versace suit at Versace in Ceaser Palace Forums Shops worth 6K? In my humble opinion I say not just no, but Hell no!
> 
> 
> 
> Why stop with Versace, those damn Bijan suits look like they retail for twice that much.
Click to expand...


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## Chuck Franke

WALTER123 said:


> Chuck Franke said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd argue with the 'no such thing as a $2000' suit proposition and 'they are if you want them to be' is what a former CFO would say, not a CEO (wink).
> 
> The reason I said that is because it does not cost Armani more in hard costs to make a suit than it cost Baroni or Enzo. Just because it has a price tag attached for $2K does not mean it's worth 2K expecially when it costs less than $200 to make so it is really just all a matter of perception. Is a Versace suit at Versace in Ceaser Palace Forums Shops worth 6K? In my humble opinion I say not just no, but Hell no!
> 
> 
> 
> And here I would agree with you when dealing with certain designer merchandise.... it was the Zegna reference that caused my eyes (and I'd wager a few others) to narrow somewhat.
> 
> Seen your stuff, seen what you sell it for and matched up against other new suits in the pricerange I would not be at all surprised to find that yours compare favorably to other suits selling in the range.
> 
> WRT MSRP's with this audience there will basically be a lot of raised eyebrows. Why? well, this is a shrewd and well educated group. I'm sure you'd acknowledge that there has yet to be a confirmed case of a Baroni suit selling in a store for $2249, likewise they'll acknowledge that some designer stuff actually sells for prices that unquestionably demonstrate that our nation has lost the war on drug use. Thing is - you aren't selling it for $2249, you are selling it for less than $400. Not a challenge - just offering the opinion that this particular audience will compare you against other suits in the $300-$400 retail range.
> 
> Not everyone can buy $2000 suits, for those who can't if you are beating the snot out of other suits that sell in the pricerange you sell yours in then I'd say you are to be applauded.
> 
> Chuck
Click to expand...


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## JeffT

Hi Chuck,

Thank you for your response. Not trying to beat a dead horse here. :icon_smile_big: The point I am trying to make is just because a brick and mortar store has suit for sale with a price tag of $2249 does not necessary mean the suit is worth $2249. I buy $6 shirts with a price tag of $79.95 attached so does that mean it's worth $79.95? I wouldn't price them over $20 retail.
In my opinion way to much focus is being put on an advertised MSRP which as you know as a manufacturer yourself is determined by you. 

Just for the record some of my brands have, and are sold in Bernini. I am sure we all know the store with huge inflated prices like their house label for $2999 on sale for $700. Why ins't anyone here jumping on their case?

Some of those suits were made by Leveti and I have been told Palasso sells to Bernini as well but do not know it for fact. How do I know this about Leveti you may ask? I saw Leveti's operation sewing the Bernini labels into the suits. Yeah,.. The exact same suit I was selling fon Ebay or $250!

I noticed you do not have good representation of your fabulous ties on Ebay so maybe you and I should talk..:icon_smile_wink: 

Jeff


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## Andy

WALTER123 said:


> ...I have been in contact with Andy via email and have offered to send him my wares so we'll see what happens from there. :icon_smile:


 Jeff:

I'm in LA also. So let's get together!


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## rssmsvc777

WALTER123 said:


> Some of those suits were made by Leveti and I have been told Palasso sells to Bernini as well


That is not really an accurate statement, because there are many examples where the same factory makes something grand and something less wonderful.

Corneliani, makes a wonderful canvassed suit but they also make Polo Blue Label which are wonderful but fused. Crockett and Jones makes outstanding shoes, but they also have done less outstanding shoes for Brooks.

My favorite all time suit manufacturer, is Belvest , and they do several lines in the same factory , it all depends on what the customer requests.

I get your point on price not always being an indicator of quality, that makes sense. However, for me it is a little simpler "for X amount of dollars what is the best quality I can purchase" and in the style that will look best on me. I can often find Belvest White Label for 400 in the exact cut and fit I want, or Polo Blue Label with fantastic shapes for 300.00.

For my build and for the customers I visit your suits would not work, so besides price I would love to see other designs than the 3 button suit.

Same for shoes, nothing personal again, but the the Ballband shoes would lose me customers and I would feel like a fool wearing them.
Ex:

I love some of the patterns for the ties, but again at 35.00 I can usually walk into a Neiman's and get Oxxford ties on
sale in the colors and patterns I want.

I am looking forward to hear the review of your items.


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## Chuck Franke

Jeff,

Damn horse asked for it anyway.

Seriously - that was not my point, my point was that on this site I think there are many folks who typically spend $300-$400 on a suit who would be thrilled to find a better one and yes, MSRP's are sometimes silly. That's why I suggested gutting a couple and comparing them side by side against some of the designer suits out there - I figured you'd win.

As to eBay representation I am very flattered but I signed this exclusive with one seller already, he's not the sharpest guy in the world and a bit of a dork but I probably need to honor that contract... drat

Regards,
Chuck


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## pt4u67

WALTER123 said:


> In my opinion way to much focus is being put on an advertised MSRP which as you know as a manufacturer yourself is determined by you.


Just checked out your website and I must admit that your merchandise (at least the suits) is very visually appealling. However if MSRP is being made too much of why do you list it the way you do. I don't blame you for using it as a marketing tool. It seems like a tremendous bargain and it very well may be compared to other suits in the $200-400 range so why lead with the MSRP in the product ID.


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## vince321

I for one, would be totally in favor of finding a manufacturer of fully canvassed, hand stitched, premium quality wool suits for $300-$400 bucks. If your products match this description, then you've found a new customer. 

I applaud you for your candor and strong opinion's ..........................here's to hoping you can back it up!


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## Chuck Franke

Vince just explained in 4 lines what I wasted 4 pages trying to convey.


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## JeffT

Hey Andy!

Actually I am in Temecula wine country about 90 miles south of LA and 40 miles north of San Diego but come to LA often. I'll be there tonight and tomorrow.

If you would like to spend an afternoon wine tasting one weekend I live almost walking distance to 28 wineries and my cousin owns one of them. We can hit the wineries and then have fun cutting apart a few suits. LOL! I'll send you my number. 

Aw.. Chuck. That's a shame because I hold the title of selling the most ties on Ebay for the last two years and am moving in on shirts. I have always admired your work so if things change give me a holler and I'll move the Hell out of them for you. If you are at MAGIC next month I'll look you up and we can chat. 

Sartorial is a good seller but he isn't marketing them correctly in my opinion. Up the MSRP! (Just kidding!) He needs at least 100 auctions going to sell any volume and he only has them in store inventory with very little exposure.

Hey RSS, Thank you for your response. Honestly, I do not think anyone on this site would be caught dead in a Ballband shoe. They are well constructed but are for my younger and ethnic customers who love the heck out of them.

Please understand my customer base is worldwide catering to people of all walks of life and I am just a humble merchant making an honest buck where I can. Personally I am a Caesar Pacotti lover.....


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## Lino

vince321 said:


> I for one, would be totally in favor of finding a manufacturer of fully canvassed, hand stitched, premium quality wool suits for $300-$400 bucks. If your products match this description, then you've found a new customer.


Do they have a MTM program.


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## rnoldh

*Fashion Forward=Ethnic!*

Jeff,
Great stuff and I applaud you! To go from cruising the Thrifts to being a #1 volume seller on Ebay is quite an accomplishment. Your business model is brilliant.
One thing I will comment on. I'm no fan of Ballband shoes either. But I would refer to those that do love them as Fashion Forward and not Ethnics. Needless to say, I know exactly what you mean! But this is the new Millenium and all that stuff. What my mind thinks, my word processor does not churn out all the time, Political correctness(Ugh!!!!)

Anyway, again I applaud you! Ebay is a damn tough place to make it as a volume seller and you seem to have done that.


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## gordgekko

Whether or not his suits meet the very high standards expressed by this forum's residents, I have to give full respect to Jeff for meeting AAAC's challenge.

If he passes I'll watch his auctions from now on.


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## Chuck Franke

> Sartorial is a good seller but he isn't marketing them correctly in my opinion. Up the MSRP! (Just kidding!) He needs at least 100 auctions going to sell any volume and he only has them in store inventory with very little exposure.


Yeah, no need to be nice - that guy is a friggin moron in my book. I only give him my clearance stuff though from our first two generations. I'll pass along your suggestion and give that idiot a good swat.


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## rnoldh

*A lid for every pot!*



Chuck Franke said:


> Yeah, no need to be nice - that guy is a friggin moron in my book. I only give him my clearance stuff though from our first two generations. I'll pass along your suggestion and give that idiot a good swat.


Funny, Funny! Sartorial has 200 auctions going as I write this!

Obviously SartorialSolutions is a different business model than The Wizard.

I, myself, would much rather wait and buy a "Used" Brioni or Zegna Su Misura Suit from SartorialSolutions than a new top of the line Baroni from The wizard of aahs! The Baroni's are about $350 and I think if one is patient you can get a really top of the line suit from Sartorial for that $350.

But a lot of people would rather buy a new Baroni, and do it quickly. The wizard, Jeff, has an Ebay feeedback total of 7270 and Sartorial has a feedback total of 2875, so they both must be doing something right!

As my Grandmother taught me many years ago. There's a lid for every pot!


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## GMF

Chuck Franke said:


> Yeah, no need to be nice - that guy is a friggin moron in my book. I only give him my clearance stuff though from our first two generations. I'll pass along your suggestion and give that idiot a good swat.


Am I missing something here? I though Chuck Franke was SartorialSolutions on ebay.


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## A Questionable Gentleman

This thread has put a whole new, sporting twist on AAAC! Can we make a book on the challenge outcome? Can we get other vendors/manufacturers to show Jeff's pluck?


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## acidicboy

THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST EXCITING THREAD IN AAAC IN RECENT MEMORY! I CAN HARDLY WAIT FOR THE PRODUCT TEST!


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## Mr. Chatterbox

acidicboy said:


> THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST EXCITING THREAD IN AAAC IN RECENT MEMORY! I CAN HARDLY WAIT FOR THE PRODUCT TEST!


Actually, medwards & RJMan's judging of Carson35's DB (and that's not double breasted) suit coat had all the makings of a celebrity death match. :devil:


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## rnoldh

*The Two Chucks!*



GMF said:


> Am I missing something here? I though Chuck Franke was SartorialSolutions on ebay.


Actually, the Chuck Franke that contributes here to AAAC is a well known philanthropist, raconteur, and all around good guy.

The Ebay seller is another Chuck Franke who is a noted merchant prince, extremely reputable vendor and service oriented seller.

I believe they might be distantly related as 4th cousins!


----------



## Chuck Franke

Y'know.... some of you guys would make lousy movie reviewers

"You'll be totally stunned at the end when you find out that it really was Mrs Plum in the Parlor with an AK47 - I never saw it coming!"

Sigh


----------



## mano

WALTER123 said:


> I am all "In" and will even send Andy a shirt and tie to check out!
> 
> The ONLY Asian suit I know of with a canvas front is Baroni and they charge for it. Even though handbasting only adds approx. $35 to the cost of the assembly Baroni charges almost double for a similar suit by Firado but the quality shows. I'll send Andy more than one to critique. How's that fellows?


You're walking the walk, Jeff.

Chuck knows far more about tie, suit and shirt construction than he lets on. IIRC he's literally dissected one or more Oxxford jackets. When he was redesigning his new line of shirts, he sent two to Alex Kabbaz, one to check out and critique, another to disassemble and critique. If AK can take the time from summer camp I'd love to hear his review of Jeff's shirts.

I also imagine medwards and Alex DiPietro would be qualified to review suits.

Any other AAAC members to suggest as reviewers?


----------



## Chuck Franke

lol...

Thanks mano but dissecting suits is more indicitive of a mental imbalance than expertise.

I know it is hard to tell when I'm being serious (I usually can't even tell) but I wasn't picking on Walter - if he's got something in the $400 range that is made pretty well from decent cloth he's got something. I'd applaud that - anything that puts quality pressure on the makers who are going cheaper and crappier on production all the time is a good thing.

The experts on stuff like this would be guys like Chris Despos - it's a lot easier cuttin one apart than in is to sew one together


----------



## medwards

Chuck Franke said:


> The experts on stuff like this would be guys like Chris Despos - it's a lot easier cuttin one apart than in is to sew one together


I would certainly agree. Chris Despos, Leonard, A tailor et al are the experts to whom I would turn regarding suit construction.


----------



## mano

Chuck Franke said:


> lol...
> 
> Thanks mano but dissecting suits is more indicitive of a mental imbalance than expertise.
> 
> it's a lot easier cuttin one apart than in is to sew one together


So, what's so wrong about indulging your mental imbalance if it keeps your hands and mind busy? Jill and Angel may appreciate it.


----------



## JeffT

Please accept my apologies if I offended anyone with the "Ethnic" comment. I meant to convey " The Young and The "Ethnic" not "Young Ethnics" which to me sounds a little raciest.

My ancestry is Lebanese/Italian and having a nephew/Godson who is half African American I can assure everyone a here a raciest slur was not intended. I was just stating a fact about most of my Ballband buyers. 

On another note. I have an idea that I conveyed to Andy that I thought might be a lot of fun as well as very interesting and educational. I have a garage full of just about every designer suit one may think of except for super exotics like Brioni, Kiton and the likes. ( I sold those first)

What are all your thoughts about putting together a blind test in the same manner as Wine Spectator does their testing. I will be happy to donate the suits as well as my own lines. We can take out every reference of origin, manufacturer and fabric quality then let the experts rate them.

I think I know clothing fairly well being a clothes horse before I came into this profession and by seeing so many suits day in and day out but to be completely honest I am not a tailor know very little about the mechanics of construction except what I have read or what has been told to me.

I would love to actually see a fused seam and a hand basted one to compare and have an expert show me the differences and advantages. I have been told there are different types of fusing as well and I think the best way to see if this is true is to check it out for myself.

I have the suits if any experts out there want to volunteer their time. I agree dissecting is way more fun than putting them back together so we can consider them very expensive car rags once we are finished. 

We could post their findings on this forum rating the suits on a four point scale. Fabric, overall quality, construction and value for the dollar. Any comments or ideas are welcome!

Jeff


----------



## rnoldh

*You have a great idea and no offense taken!*



WALTER123 said:


> Please accept my apologies if I offended anyone with the "Ethnic" comment. I meant to convey " The Young and The "Ethnic" not "Young Ethnics" which to me sounds a little raciest.
> 
> My ancestry is Lebanese/Italian and having a nephew/Godson who is half African American I can assure everyone a here a raciest slur was not intended. I was just stating a fact about most of my Ballband buyers.
> 
> On another note. I have an idea that I conveyed to Andy that I thought might be a lot of fun as well as very interesting and educational. I have a garage full of just about every designer suit one may think of except for super exotics like Brioni, Kiton and the likes. ( I sold those first)
> 
> What are all your thoughts about putting together a blind test in the same manner as Wine Spectator does their testing. I will be happy to donate the suits as well as my own lines. We can take out every reference of origin, manufacturer and fabric quality then let the experts rate them.
> 
> I think I know clothing fairly well being a clothes horse before I came into this profession and by seeing so many suits day in and day out but to be completely honest I am not a tailor know very little about the mechanics of construction except what I have read or what has been told to me.
> 
> I would love to actually see a fused seam and a hand basted one to compare and have an expert show me the differences and advantages. I have been told there are different types of fusing as well and I think the best way to see if this is true is to check it out for myself.
> 
> I have the suits if any experts out there want to volunteer their time. I agree dissecting is way more fun than putting them back together so we can consider them very expensive car rags once we are finished.
> 
> We could post their findings on this forum rating the suits on a four point scale. Fabric, overall quality, construction and value for the dollar. Any comments or ideas are welcome!
> 
> Jeff


Hi Jeff,
I left the post about "ethnics". I can assure you that no offense was taken by me and probably other AAACer's. I was just trying to say that in our overly PC(Politically Correct) world it is probably wise to use "Youth Buyers" or "Fashion Forward Buyers".

Now, as to your idea, it sounds fabulous and a lot of fun. I'm in Houston, Tx. If I were in the L.A. area I would love to donate a suit and participate in the "Blind Test".

I hope other AAACer's read this thread and get the idea going. Where are you Andy? Jeff, you sound like a great guy, and businessman and I again applaud you in your Ebay success. It's probably easier to be an honest Lawyer these days than a successful volume Ebay seller! I leave on that thought.


----------



## rssmsvc777

WALTER123 said:


> Please accept my apologies if I offended anyone with the "Ethnic" comment. I meant to convey " The Young and The "Ethnic" not "Young Ethnics" which to me sounds a little raciest.
> Jeff


Since you were responding to my comment, and I am asian I just wanted to say that I didn't believe for a second you meant it as any sort of slur.

I did think when I read it that you could of phrased it better, but the truth is that I doubt anyone reading this hasn't said something they could of said better and regretted.

I remeber the first big internship I got , I repeated a joke I heard the president say without grasping the meaning and have regretted it for years once i understood.


----------



## Jill

Jeff - PM me - we're in LA this week, would love to see your stuff

(this is chuck, Jill's laptop)


----------



## Teacher

Jill said:


> Jeff - PM me - we're in LA this week, would love to see your stuff
> 
> (this is chuck, Jill's laptop)


You're Jill's lap-_what?_

Ooookaaaayyy, Chuck.


----------



## aph999

*I've purchased from Wizard of Ahhs...*

...and am one of those genuine e-bayers who left positive feedback. I'll admit when I bought my first Leveti suit, as an inexperienced e-bayer, and after e-mailing the Wizard about how he knew the "retail" price, that I thought I was getting a great deal. OK, we've dealt with the issue of MSRPs here. The bottom line is that the suit is nice, well constructed, and the fabric drapes beautifully. I bought a Firado--"designed in Italy" but made in Asia--which is the least expensive suit I've purchased but one of my girlfriend's favorites. And she knows fashion, having grown up around the family of a major French designer.

No, I'm not necessarily plugging W of Aahs--I've had even better deals on some of my Isaia's and Zegnas--but he's got a great selection, great site, nice products, is always reachable, and is one of the more reputable e-bay merchants. You don't get feedback with that volume by disappointing customers.


----------



## Artisan Fan

> I do not feel any suit is worth $2000+. If you spend that kind of money you are not only paying for the suit but also paying for advertising budgets, extremely high executive and CEO salaries, fancy boutiques and have you thought about what it costs to have George Clooney wear it in Vanity Fair?


I politely disagree. In many cases with the better makers you are mostly paying for the best fabrics and oodles of handwork. Many of these companies do not spend a lot on advertising. Kiton, for instance, uses very infrequent print ads.


----------



## wgiceman

What is the status of the challenge put out by Jeff? I looked at his site and some of the items photograph well. However, I would like to hear what the results are regarding the examination of material and the overall construction of the suits.

I am a firm believer that overall fit is the most important aspect of wearing a suit well. No matter how expensive/inexpensive a suit is, a poorly fitting suit will look crappy. 

Also, there are the little things that are added to MTM suits that will not be present with those mentioned on the wizard's site. The question becomes 'how much are those little things worth to you'? (I realize that this is a moot point when comparing one RTW manufacturer to another.) 
If you are like me, those little things make the difference. But each person has their own price point. All-in-all, I look forward to the results of the examination.


----------



## jazzy1

wgiceman said:


> What is the status of the challenge put out by Jeff? I looked at his site and some of the items photograph well. However, I would like to hear what the results are regarding the examination of material and the overall construction of the suits.
> 
> I am a firm believer that overall fit is the most important aspect of wearing a suit well. No matter how expensive/inexpensive a suit is, a poorly fitting suit will look crappy.
> 
> Also, there are the little things that are added to MTM suits that will not be present with those mentioned on the wizard's site. The question becomes 'how much are those little things worth to you'? (I realize that this is a moot point when comparing one RTW manufacturer to another.)
> If you are like me, those little things make the difference. But each person has their own price point. All-in-all, I look forward to the results of the examination.


I totally agree with you regarding the fit of a suit being one of the most important aspects of a suit. The one thing that cannot be argued is that the Wizard has a larger range of sizes than most on ebay.

While I am on weight loss program with lots of exercise, I wear a 52 reg, down from a 56 reg. These seem to be the only suits in that size range that you find on ebay. What good is an Zenga or Canali if they don't have my size?


----------



## LARon

Artisan Fan said:


> I politely disagree. In many cases with the better makers you are mostly paying for the best fabrics and oodles of handwork. Many of these companies do not spend a lot on advertising. Kiton, for instance, uses very infrequent print ads.


I completely agree with Artisan Fan. For the vast majority of us our material desires are driven by emotion, and we tend to value most those things that represent the greatest displays and evidence of human passion.

We glorify the athlete who gives the greatest effort because we know that effort was born of endless hours of silent suffering beyond public view to condition the body and train the mind. Think Unitas, Jordan, Tiger, Lance.

We honor the musicians and artists who struggle for years to find an audience, create a voice or a style that is then heard, seen and treasured for generations. Think Stratovarius, Beethoven, Van Gogh, Pollock.

We cherish craftsmen who dominate the natural elements of steel, glass, rubber, diamond and gold and marry those element to the human dexterity and refinement. Bentley, Ferrari, Faberge, I.M. Pei, Gehry.

What all of these names have in common is the complete passion and total commitment of their namesakes. In the same way, we value the labor of weavers, tailors and pattern makers who elevate the craft of clothing the man/woman into an art form; who create something unique and specific to that client.

I am a clotheshorse of longstanding, who has aspired to wear the best that I could afford for more than 30 years. In that time I have worn all manner of suit and fabric (from vintage to handmade) and more designers' labels than I care to remember. Now that I'm able to occasionally afford the uniqueness of Oxxford and Kiton, I can say without question, that there is a very real difference between the passion found in every seam, stitch and fit of those garments and even the best that a house like Zegna has to offer (as good as it is). And that ripples down the quality line.

To be sure, there are many houses and labels that make a fine suit product. But, just as Cadillac and Mercedes make a fine automobile they still, and simply, are not at the top of the chain. The work of human hands simply cannot be duplicated; and there is a price to be paid for that.


----------



## dragon

I just purchased a suit Jeff. A black suit for under $300. It looks good and it s got hand picked stitching in front. What more could I ask. Will post a review when I receive it.


----------



## Sator

Artisan Fan said:


> I politely disagree. In many cases with the better makers you are mostly paying for the best fabrics and oodles of handwork. Many of these companies do not spend a lot on advertising. Kiton, for instance, uses very infrequent print ads.


I recently took a new Kiton suit to my tailor who also makes bespoke suits. All it needed was a bit of waist suppression. He complained to me that it took two tailors 7 hours to unpick all of the stitching and then put it back together again! I nearly died when I saw the bill . It really brought home to me just how much handwork there is in a Kiton suit.


----------



## Alan

..... and the out come is?


----------



## dragon

I just received my Suit from Jeff. 

The materials feel nice. The suit looks geat, it has hand picked stitching on the lapels, pockets and down the front of the coat. He was extremely easy to communicate with and quite accomadating. 

It certainly is no kiton but you can't get a kiton for $240 either.

I'm happy with it.


----------



## GMF

dragon said:


> I just received my Suit from Jeff.
> 
> The materials feel nice. The suit looks geat, it has hand picked stitching on the lapels, pockets and down the front of the coat. He was extremely easy to communicate with and quite accomadating.
> 
> It certainly is no kiton but you can't get a kiton for $240 either.
> 
> I'm happy with it.


Which brand name did you get? Enzo or Baroni?

I've got one of his Firado suits and I'm quite pleased with it. No hand stitching, but the Super 130 material is nice and supple and the machine pick stitching on the lining looks nice.


----------



## dragon

I purchased a black Baroni. It's nice. The wools is pretty soft. Nice suit for the price.


----------



## vince321

It would be great to get a comparison of your newly aquired suit vs. other common high quality suits.

For instance, how does it compare to Canali or Corneliani? If the Baroni is equal, then we have a real winner here.


----------



## DocHolliday

vince321 said:


> It would be great to get a comparison of your newly aquired suit vs. other common high quality suits.
> 
> For instance, how does it compare to Canali or Corneliani? If the Baroni is equal, then we have a real winner here.


The keyhole lapel buttonhole alone disqualifies it from that status, at least to me. I have no experience with Baroni suits -- and I don't doubt that they may be far nicer than most suits in their price range -- but the devil's in the details.


----------



## dragon

What happened to the "challenge" with Andy? Does anyone know?


----------



## rnoldh

*Ditto!!!*



dragon said:


> What happened to the "challenge" with Andy? Does anyone know?


Andy, What's happened to the challenge? Jeff, are you out there.

It sure sounded like an interesting proposal!

Regards and Thanks,
rnoldh


----------



## GMF

You will get to see one of Jeff's suits later tonight. I'm going to wear the Firado suit I got from him tomorrow. I'll post pics in a "What I'm wearing tomorrow" thread later.


----------



## Lino

WALTER123 said:


> 3.) Palasso, Leveti, Enzo and most Baroni's are "Made in Italy" not China and are of impressive quality.





WALTER123 said:


> The ONLY Asian suit I know of with a canvas front is Baroni and they charge for it. Even though handbasting only adds approx. $35 to the cost of the assembly Baroni charges almost double for a similar suit by Firado but the quality shows. I'll send Andy more than one to critique. How's that fellows?





WALTER123 said:


> Firado is the Asian brand of Palasso. Palasso makes three lines.
> 
> Palasso is the Italian made 100% wool, Firado is the same suit and sometimes the same fabric but made in either China or Korea and Rizzoli is their tetron/viscose blend or linen suit. All are fused.


Huh?

1. Is Baroni made in Italy or China?

2. Are the Palasso, Leveti, or Enzo fused, half canvassed or fully canvassed. If it is the latter, is it full fused free? (even in the colar)


----------



## Chuck Franke

If he's got one with a flaw somewhere I have the scalpel ready... have a nice H. Huntsman and a few other goodies ready to undergo the knife in the studio.


----------



## GMF

Chuck Franke said:


> If he's got one with a flaw somewhere I have the scalpel ready... have a nice H. Huntsman and a few other goodies ready to undergo the knife in the studio.


Rather than just ripping a bunch of suits to shreds and taking pictures, wouldn't it be more informative to have someone like Chris Despos on hand to examine the suits as they undergo their autopsies? That way we can get the feedback from a tailor who actually knows how to measure, cut, and sew a suit.


----------



## acidicboy

so when's the big fight already?


----------



## nerdykarim

acidicboy said:


> so when's the big fight already?


I'm waiting for it as well. If the suits compare favorably to one of Chuck's, I may purchase one for myself.


----------



## brugotti

Baroni makes two versions of there suits the less expensive made in China version and the more expensive Italian made version.


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## maxnharry

Update? I am sorry that I missed this thread first time around and look forward to the outcome!


----------



## rnoldh

*Are you a Baroni seller?*



brugotti said:


> Baroni makes two versions of there suits the less expensive made in China version and the more expensive Italian made version.


Nice website! Are your $499 suits, the Italian made Baroni's?


----------



## brugotti

Yes, iam a seller of Baroni. The suits you see for $499 are there made in italy super 150s. I also deal with a few other made in italy suit makers.


----------



## Lino

brugotti said:


> Yes, iam a seller of Baroni. The suits you see for $499 are there made in italy super 150s. I also deal with a few other made in italy suit makers.


And these are fully canvassed? Is there any fusing at all, like around the collar?


----------



## Chuck Franke

nerdykarim said:


> I'm waiting for it as well. If the suits compare favorably to one of Chuck's, I may purchase one for myself.


Hey Hey Hey... wait a minute 

Don't make suits, I simply suggested comparing it to the suits Jeff said they compared favorably to and seeing how they did.

Now why in the world is it that when I say something intended to be taken at face value there are those who go and assume I'm being a wiseguy?

Sniffle... that wounds me.


----------



## nerdykarim

Chuck Franke said:


> Hey Hey Hey... wait a minute
> 
> Don't make suits, I simply suggested comparing it to the suits Jeff said they compared favorably to and seeing how they did.
> 
> Now why in the world is it that when I say something intended to be taken at face value there are those who go and assume I'm being a wiseguy?
> 
> Sniffle... that wounds me.


I guess I was referring to a suit from Sartorial Solutions since 'that seller' tends to only sell very high quality suits. Apologies for the mixup. :icon_smile_big:

My post, actually, was mostly intended just to automatically subscribe to this thread so I'll get an email if and when Jeff makes one of his suits available for one of our resident experts to evaluate. :devil:


----------



## Lino

Chuck Franke said:


> I simply suggested comparing it to the suits Jeff said they compared favorably to and seeing how they did.


Right, so which suit makers does he compare each brand he sells?

As many have mentioned, if his suits compare well with the Canali, Cantarelli, Corneliani, and Zegna main line; then I will be placing an order with him


----------



## GMF

Lino said:


> As many have mentioned, if his suits compare well with the Canali, Cantarelli, Corneliani, and Zegna main line; then I will be placing an order with him


While I think Jeff's suit offer good value for the money, I don't think you'll see near the level of handwork on any of his suits that is more or less typical on suits from the makers you've listed.


----------



## A Harris

> if his suits compare well with the Canali, Cantarelli, Corneliani, and Zegna main line


Sorry, but they are not going to be anywhere close to the quality of those lines. Not even in the same ballpark.


----------



## Dapper Dave

*Does any reasonable person expect that they would compare?*

I would not expect that Aaah's Baroni suit would compare equally to Zegna Kiton, or Canali. I don't think it's reasonable to think they would. Still, as has been said before here, if he sells a canvas, hand-picked, quality fabric suit with good construction for $300 then who is to complain?

I found this website after finding his suits listed on eBay and doing some research online. I will probably buy a suit if the results of his "Andy Test" are favorable. So far, he appears to be an up-front, straightforward guy. I'd love to think he is, but I'll wait until he actually sends Andy the suits for a head-to-head comparison.

What about Palasso again? Where does that stand among the ranks?


----------



## brugotti

to be honest i never really checked to see if Baroni is full canvas or not. I would assume that it is since most of the other companys i deal with are or claim to be canvas with bremburg lining and horn buttons. But i can say this, the fabric is very good and in my opinion there suits as well as several lesser know made in italy makers are well worth the cost. I have yet to hear a bad word said about the Baroni brand.


----------



## Chuck Franke

Brugotti -

Which 150's are they using? Any idea which mill? I'm assuming this is a Chinese or Korean fabric at that price. NOT knocking a thing, especially sight unseen, genuinely curious as to which mills they are getting 150's from at that price.


----------



## Tomasso

brugotti said:


> to be honest i never really checked to see if Baroni is full canvas or not.


----------



## A Harris

> I would not expect that Aaah's Baroni suit would compare equally to Zegna Kiton, or Canali. I don't think it's reasonable to think they would. Still, as has been said before here, if he sells a canvas, hand-picked, quality fabric suit with good construction for $300 then who is to complain?


That's the crux of the matter. Canvas front construction and handpicked lapels are exactly what put a suit on the same level of quality as Canali, Zegna etc. For the Baroni suits he claims "hand basted-canvas backed front, hand pick stitching around the lapels and is made and hand finished in Italy." I eagerly await the test...

Re. his Enzo suits, the auction claims "It features an Kiton cut and design dual side vents, single pleat slacks, hand basted-canvas backed and hand finished" I have personal experience with these suits and can state unequivocally that the cut bears no resemblance to Kiton other than it is a 3btn suit with shoulders, sleeves, etc. They are definitely not "hand basted-canvas backed". And there is absolutely no visible hand finishing, which leads me to believe that they are probably not hiding any hand finishing inside the coat.


----------



## Lino

Dapper Dave said:


> I would not expect that Aaah's Baroni suit would compare equally to Zegna Kiton, or Canali.


Hey, I did not say Kiton. I was trying to stick with full canvassed Italians, that are known for good quality, but not famous for high amounts of handwork.

I beleive the call for how they compare to Canali and Corneliani has been made a few times in the thread. I tossed in Zegna's main line because I thought it is about on par with Canali and Corneliani.


----------



## Lino

GMF said:


> While I think Jeff's suit offer good value for the money, I don't think you'll see near the level of handwork on any of his suits that is more or less typical on suits from the makers you've listed.


Please note, I did not mention Kiton or Brioni, I tried to stick with brands who's fame not based on lots of handwork. The Baroni is said to be fully canvassed, with hand pick stitch, etc., and Italian styling, which to me sounds like something that should be on par with a Canali or Corneliani. Perhaps the fabric is not as fabulous, but if it wears well and can stand up to use, then I would be OK with that-then again we keep hearing how great the fabric is too.


----------



## warfighter

*Where is the value?*

I have been reading the threads with great interest. First, I believe people should buy what they want. That said, however I can't see the purpose of paying $1000 or more for a "designer suit" that only cost $150 - $200 to make. Even considering the handiwork that is added on afterwards, it doesn't equate to that much value.

Pick stiching around the lapel, working sleeve buttons to me is like those gold type letters you can upgrade to for the back of your Lexus.....cute but don't add any value to the engine.

When you walk in a Nordstrom or even a botique men's store only, the highest priced items are suits - which also are the largest potential for mark ups. One would have to sell a large amount of neckties to keep salaries paid, lights on, rent paid, etc. (don't forget profit).

Not sure I understand the argument that Oxxford or Brioni suits will last much longer - who wants to wear the same suit for 10 years? And if people really kept these suits for that long, why are there 2nd hand stores that buy them and than sell them? Why would I want to buy a 5 year old suit and pay for alterations when I could get a new suit with the same quality wool and construction.

I know, I know.....the wool that certain suit makers use is "supposedly" better quality than others.....but come on, how much better? when do diminishing returns come into consideration?

The pyschology of marketing plays a huge role.....no matter how bad we feel, a $1600 suit will cure all our ills...how depressed can one feel knowing how good we look? how much superior do we feel knowing that we can afford to buy 2 or 3 suits at $2000 each?


----------



## Dapper Dave

*Good points in this thread*

As for the comments about hand picked stitching and functional buttonholes being akin to gold lettering on the Lexus, isn't 90% of the matter about style anyway? And I would argue that it does, in fact, signal a quality suit (at least the stitching).

The point about not wanting to wear a suit for 10 years is a good one. I have a probably 10-12 suits and I find that I just don't want to wear the same ones. Styles have changed - including my own personal style. I figure if I wear a nice suit for 3 years it's probably enough.


----------



## brugotti

Chuck, I dont know which mill they get there cloth from(When the companys v.p. was showing me the construction, he happen to slip me into a soft and suple italian super 150 grey pinstripe number and i lost all train of thought) so i never got around to asking which mill they used. I dont think that it is a well know mill but for the price range you cant complain. but i know a few of the brands i deal with that are in the same price range use Vitale Barberis, Reda and Loro Piana


----------



## Teacher

warfighter said:


> I have been reading the threads with great interest. First, I believe people should buy what they want. That said, however I can't see the purpose of paying $1000 or more for a "designer suit" that only cost $150 - $200 to make. Even considering the handiwork that is added on afterwards, it doesn't equate to that much value.
> 
> Pick stiching around the lapel, working sleeve buttons to me is like those gold type letters you can upgrade to for the back of your Lexus.....cute but don't add any value to the engine.
> 
> When you walk in a Nordstrom or even a botique men's store only, the highest priced items are suits - which also are the largest potential for mark ups. One would have to sell a large amount of neckties to keep salaries paid, lights on, rent paid, etc. (don't forget profit).
> 
> Not sure I understand the argument that Oxxford or Brioni suits will last much longer - who wants to wear the same suit for 10 years? And if people really kept these suits for that long, why are there 2nd hand stores that buy them and than sell them? Why would I want to buy a 5 year old suit and pay for alterations when I could get a new suit with the same quality wool and construction.
> 
> I know, I know.....the wool that certain suit makers use is "supposedly" better quality than others.....but come on, how much better? when do diminishing returns come into consideration?
> 
> The pyschology of marketing plays a huge role.....no matter how bad we feel, a $1600 suit will cure all our ills...how depressed can one feel knowing how good we look? how much superior do we feel knowing that we can afford to buy 2 or 3 suits at $2000 each?


Hmmm...I smell a shill....


----------



## warfighter

*Shrill?*

Teacher - please enlighten me with your accusing of me being a shill?

First, to help you. I represent no interest as far as selling clothes. I am speaking of a buyer.

While I have purchased a Palasso, I was just as happy with it as I was with an Armani I purchased at Saks for $800 (on sale) .....which by the way I found out had fused canvas....

Having been involved in counter cyops, I am intimately familiar with how the marketing forces in corporate America works...btw, teacher let me ask you this:

With the flattening of commerce into Asian countries, the growing unemployment rate in Italy, the less expensive labor market, would you NOT expect the big boys to move the operations there to increase profits?

When you have people from the 'tier one" clothing designers stating it has become more difficult to tell a counterfit article from the genuine, do you believe it suggests that the Asian houses are just as good?

My point was to express my opinion which is why should I pay 7x - 10x the cost of a suit?

If the Brioni, Oxxford and Kiton are that superior, why wouldn't they hold their value rather than being able to purchase them 2nd hand for $600?

Fully agree with the earlier poster - it's about style - if one likes functioning buttons on your jacket sleeve, etc., that's great. After all, it's your money.


----------



## Teacher

warfighter said:


> Teacher - please enlighten me with your accusing of me being a shill?
> 
> First, to help you. I represent no interest as far as selling clothes. I am speaking of a buyer.
> 
> While I have purchased a Palasso, I was just as happy with it as I was with an Armani I purchased at Saks for $800 (on sale) .....which by the way I found out had fused canvas....
> 
> Having been involved in counter cyops, I am intimately familiar with how the marketing forces in corporate America works...btw, teacher let me ask you this:
> 
> With the flattening of commerce into Asian countries, the growing unemployment rate in Italy, the less expensive labor market, would you NOT expect the big boys to move the operations there to increase profits?
> 
> When you have people from the 'tier one" clothing designers stating it has become more difficult to tell a counterfit article from the genuine, do you believe it suggests that the Asian houses are just as good?
> 
> My point was to express my opinion which is why should I pay 7x - 10x the cost of a suit?
> 
> If the Brioni, Oxxford and Kiton are that superior, why wouldn't they hold their value rather than being able to purchase them 2nd hand for $600?
> 
> Fully agree with the earlier poster - it's about style - if one likes functioning buttons on your jacket sleeve, etc., that's great. After all, it's your money.


1. You sound like a shill because this is your very first post, there's no introduction, and you just repeat everything one or two other sellers have said previously.

2. I am also familiar with marketing/economy, and that was in no way part of my former post.

3. Clothing does not hold its value, regardless of where it comes from. Once it leaves the retail store -- worn or not -- people will pay only a fraction of the original cost. The ONLY reason brands like Baroni etc. can sell for 1/3 what Oxxford does on eBay is people are willing to take the chance. The fact that they sell proves absolutely nothing...since you're so familiar with marketing, you should know this. There's a lot of junk* that sells tremendously well.

Furthermore, you cite Armani as an example of quality clothing and, further, use the word "designer." Brands such as Oxxford, Kiton, Attolini, Cornelliani, Canali, St. Andrews, etc. are head-and-shoulders above Armani, quality-wise. "Designers" are more interested in fleeting style and covering extremely high overhead (Oxxford does not put on multi-million dollar runway extravaganzas).

If you doubt the amount of detail and workmanship that go into these top-shelf brands, then you have not seen them. When you make statements suggesting the time-proven top brands don't last longer, then you belie your inexperience with them. If you don't want a suit that will last more than a few years, then Armani and its clones are the ones for you (yes, guys, I'm aware of their top-end line, which is much better constructed). For those of us who want timeless suits, though, the best made suits from the best made fabrics are the best way to go.

I'm glad you like the suit you bought (assuming you're legit); who am I to say you shouldn't? And if you don't want to pay $2,000 for a suit, well, that's your business (I've never paid NEARLY that much for mine, either). Your economic decisions are your own. Just don't go telling (selling?) us that we shouldn't want it what we want.

_*EDIT: I'm not calling these brands junk...I have no experience with the brands mentioned in this thread. I'm making a statement about marketing only._


----------



## Lino

Teacher said:


> Hmmm...I smell a shill....


I was just marveling at the number of new members who seem to post only on this thread.


----------



## Chuck Franke

brugotti said:


> Chuck, I dont know which mill they get there cloth from(When the companys v.p. was showing me the construction, he happen to slip me into a soft and suple italian super 150 grey pinstripe number and i lost all train of thought) so i never got around to asking which mill they used. I dont think that it is a well know mill but for the price range you cant complain. but i know a few of the brands i deal with that are in the same price range use Vitale Barberis, Reda and Loro Piana


Hmmmm.... LP 150's goes for over 100 Euros per meter when you are buying lengths exceeding 100 meters.

Again, not being negative, I'm just a geek who finds such things interesting. If you wouldn't mind cutting a 2" square out of the suit and mailing it to me I'll put it under the microscope and see what we've got...

(LOL)


----------



## warfighter

*Answers for Teacher*

Answers below:

1. You sound like a shill because this is your very first post, there's no introduction, and you just repeat everything one or two other sellers have said previously.

First thank you very much for helping me. I had no idea I was supposed to provide an introduction. Perhaps you could send me your bio and introduction and I could use that as a template to share with the rest of the forum

2. I am also familiar with marketing/economy, and that was in no way part of my former post.

Since all you wrote was "that you smelled a shrill", I had no way of knowing what you wasn't a part of your post.

3. Clothing does not hold its value, regardless of where it comes from. Once it leaves the retail store -- worn or not -- people will pay only a fraction of the original cost. The ONLY reason brands like Baroni etc. can sell for 1/3 what Oxxford does on eBay is people are willing to take the chance. The fact that they sell proves absolutely nothing...since you're so familiar with marketing, you should know this. There's a lot of junk* that sells tremendously well.

What chance would these people be taking? Purchasing a pre-owned suit and than having alterations that make the suit cost more than a new suit?

Furthermore, you cite Armani as an example of quality clothing and, further, use the word "designer." Brands such as Oxxford, Kiton, Attolini, Cornelliani, Canali, St. Andrews, etc. are head-and-shoulders above Armani, quality-wise. "Designers" are more interested in fleeting style and covering extremely high overhead (Oxxford does not put on multi-million dollar runway extravaganzas).

Oxxford, Kiton and all the others you submit are no more than designers for the rich who have the income.

If you doubt the amount of detail and workmanship that go into these top-shelf brands, then you have not seen them. When you make statements suggesting the time-proven top brands don't last longer, then you belie your inexperience with them. If you don't want a suit that will last more than a few years, then Armani and its clones are the ones for you (yes, guys, I'm aware of their top-end line, which is much better constructed). For those of us who want timeless suits, though, the best made suits from the best made fabrics are the best way to go.

I have seen them and I didn't say they didn't hold up..rather I said I personally would want to own the same suit for 10 years.

I'm glad you like the suit you bought (assuming you're legit); who am I to say you shouldn't? And if you don't want to pay $2,000 for a suit, well, that's your business (I've never paid NEARLY that much for mine, either). Your economic decisions are your own. Just don't go telling (selling?) us that we shouldn't want it what we want.

Sorry if you mistakenly felt I was telling/selliing you shouldn't want what you want. My point was and is the same.....paying 10x for what it costs to make a suit doesn't seem rational to me.

Curious though, the word nearly......does that mean you paid less than a grand?

_*EDIT: I'm not calling these brands junk...I have no experience with the brands mentioned in this thread. I'm making a statement about marketing only._


----------



## Lino

DocHolliday said:


> The keyhole lapel buttonhole alone disqualifies it from that status, at least to me. I have no experience with Baroni suits -- and I don't doubt that they may be far nicer than most suits in their price range -- but the devil's in the details.


The Baroni seems to have a keyhole lapel buttonhole, but on the others, I can not tell, they look like they may not be.


----------



## Chuck Franke

Warfighter et al...

With due respect it is not really accurate to call brands like Oxxford merely designers for the rich.

Since I know you are brand new here there is generally a distinction between 'designer' items and the top tier handmade makers who don't do a lot of billboards and magazine ads. They are an entirely different critter and a comparison can't really be drawn.

To most audiences, a suit is a suit is a suit... not so really with this crowd.

As I suggested to Jeff in the beginning of this thread my personal opinion is that if he, and other fans of the suits being discussed, would merely stick to the "Compared to other $400 and under suits these are wonderful" argument it would go over quite well.

I suspect that argument has validity.

Where problems come is when you introduce comparisons to certain suits in the $1500-$2000+ class that are substantially different in terms of materials and craftsmanship.

For example - the labelling of a fabric as Super 150's is ....not exactly descriptive. At the better Italian mills the 150's would cost more than the total retail cost of these items just for the fabric. Most people know precious little about what effect micronage of woolen fibers has on the quality of the cloth. Those that do understand wool know that a lesser quality 150's has some inherent problems that will bode poorly for the garment being made. The lower the micronage (ie, higher super number) the more important the other qualities of the fabric and it's construction becomes.

Again... I think there is a great marketing niche that can be attacked here if the argument is for a decently constructed suit in the <$400 price tier.

Going after Corneliani, Zegna, Canali, Belvest let alone Kiton/Oxxford is somewhere between incredibly courageous and utterly suicidal. In this particular group if you make that claim people will actually verify whether or not the claim is accurate.

This may be the worst conceivable venue in which to oversell the quality points of a tailored garment. 


Just my two cents, there is great marketing message that you are missing out on entirely in favor of one that is likely to end badly. It's like watching the teenager in the b-move walking toward the closet saying "Bobby? Dude? is that you????" and knowing the guy with the hockey mask is about to ruin his day.

Anyway, I'm simply trying to guide you away from that door.


----------



## Dapper Dave

Lino said:


> I was just marveling at the number of new members who seem to post only on this thread.


I am one of them. I went about doing a little research as I had never heard of Baroni or Palasso and I came upon this wonderful site. This has been an outstanding thread and very educational for me. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion but, to the point made earlier, if Asian counterfitters and the like can blur the lines as well as they apparently now can what would lead me to pay more?

I liken the issue to buying a Toyota version of a Lexus. They are so similar in quality that it makes little sense (to ME) to pay the markup for the privilege of "driving a Lexus".

I have no financial interest in anything mentioned here (except that I'd rather spend less and get more).


----------



## brugotti

Chuck, the Loro Piana cloth used is s120 not s150. Baroni used to make 120's but stopped. Gentlemen, iam not here to sell anybody anything, i have been lurking here almost 2 years and only post in threads that i have personal knowledge about. I post in this thread because i have knowledge/deal with lesser know companys. And yes, the makers of Baroni are very high(as they should be) on there"made" in China suit, The V.P. told me that it is on par with their Made in Italy suit but at a lower cost.


----------



## Dapper Dave

*Significance of a "keyhole" buttonhole on the lapel please?*

Someone suggested that it signified poor quality or something to that effect. How is this a factor please?


----------



## GMF

Dapper Dave said:


> Someone suggested that it signified poor quality or something to that effect. How is this a factor please?


I think it signifies an inability by the maker to make a button hole meant for buttons (keyhole) as well as one meant for a boutonniere (straight cut). Maybe not a sign of poor quality, but of taking shortcuts. Which begs the question: Where else did they cut corners that we can't see?

NB: the button hole on the lapel of my Firado suit from Jeff is correct.


----------



## warfighter

Chuck Franke said:


> Warfighter et al...
> 
> With due respect it is not really accurate to call brands like Oxxford merely designers for the rich.
> 
> Since I know you are brand new here there is generally a distinction between 'designer' items and the top tier handmade makers who don't do a lot of billboards and magazine ads. They are an entirely different critter and a comparison can't really be drawn.
> 
> To most audiences, a suit is a suit is a suit... not so really with this crowd.
> 
> As I suggested to Jeff in the beginning of this thread my personal opinion is that if he, and other fans of the suits being discussed, would merely stick to the "Compared to other $400 and under suits these are wonderful" argument it would go over quite well.
> 
> I suspect that argument has validity.
> 
> Where problems come is when you introduce comparisons to certain suits in the $1500-$2000+ class that are substantially different in terms of materials and craftsmanship.
> 
> For example - the labelling of a fabric as Super 150's is ....not exactly descriptive. At the better Italian mills the 150's would cost more than the total retail cost of these items just for the fabric. Most people know precious little about what effect micronage of woolen fibers has on the quality of the cloth. Those that do understand wool know that a lesser quality 150's has some inherent problems that will bode poorly for the garment being made. The lower the micronage (ie, higher super number) the more important the other qualities of the fabric and it's construction becomes.
> 
> Again... I think there is a great marketing niche that can be attacked here if the argument is for a decently constructed suit in the <$400 price tier.
> 
> Going after Corneliani, Zegna, Canali, Belvest let alone Kiton/Oxxford is somewhere between incredibly courageous and utterly suicidal. In this particular group if you make that claim people will actually verify whether or not the claim is accurate.
> 
> This may be the worst conceivable venue in which to oversell the quality points of a tailored garment.
> 
> Just my two cents, there is great marketing message that you are missing out on entirely in favor of one that is likely to end badly. It's like watching the teenager in the b-move walking toward the closet saying "Bobby? Dude? is that you????" and knowing the guy with the hockey mask is about to ruin his day.
> 
> Anyway, I'm simply trying to guide you away from that door.


Many thanks Chuck for the thoughtful response.

One question since you are a moderator. In previous threads I thought I saw that the person selling Palasso, Baroni was going to provide some of this suits for a "dissection".

Would you be able to shed any light on what the outcome was?


----------



## Teacher

warfighter said:


> Answers below:
> 
> 1. You sound like a shill because this is your very first post, there's no introduction, and you just repeat everything one or two other sellers have said previously.
> 
> First thank you very much for helping me. I had no idea I was supposed to provide an introduction. Perhaps you could send me your bio and introduction and I could use that as a template to share with the rest of the forum


Naturally there is no formality or "template." However, most posters provide some kind of brief intro. Those who don't and just jump right in like you did sound like alter egos.



> 3. Clothing does not hold its value, regardless of where it comes from. Once it leaves the retail store -- worn or not -- people will pay only a fraction of the original cost. The ONLY reason brands like Baroni etc. can sell for 1/3 what Oxxford does on eBay is people are willing to take the chance. The fact that they sell proves absolutely nothing...since you're so familiar with marketing, you should know this. There's a lot of junk* that sells tremendously well.
> 
> What chance would these people be taking? Purchasing a pre-owned suit and than having alterations that make the suit cost more than a new suit?


Here's the "chance" I was talking about: with a genuine Oxxford/Kiton/Brioni (etc. -- and nobody fakes these for reasons that would take too much of a digression to go into), the buyer knows he will get quality. There's no doubt about it. With a completely unknown brand not sold in brick-and-mortars, the buyer could be getting complete and utter garbage. As was one of the initial points of this thread, there is no way to verify that these really are quality garments until several people who know what they're talking about purchase them and wear them for a while. Even if not expensive (comparitively speaking), it's still a gamble. No gamble with the well-known brands.



> Furthermore, you cite Armani as an example of quality clothing and, further, use the word "designer." Brands such as Oxxford, Kiton, Attolini, Cornelliani, Canali, St. Andrews, etc. are head-and-shoulders above Armani, quality-wise. "Designers" are more interested in fleeting style and covering extremely high overhead (Oxxford does not put on multi-million dollar runway extravaganzas).
> 
> Oxxford, Kiton and all the others you submit are no more than designers for the rich who have the income.


Not at all true. They spend shockingly little on advertising, their web sites tend to be awful, and they don't sport the latest and sleekest cuts. They are here for those who want quality garments that will last a very long time, fit extremely well, and never stand out as trendy. The types of companies you're referring to are, by and large, the trendy Italian houses with huge glossy double-truck spreads in _GQ_ and company and who use nice fabrics but questionable construction that is not meant to last more than a few years.



> I'm glad you like the suit you bought (assuming you're legit); who am I to say you shouldn't? And if you don't want to pay $2,000 for a suit, well, that's your business (I've never paid NEARLY that much for mine, either). Your economic decisions are your own. Just don't go telling (selling?) us that we shouldn't want it what we want.
> 
> Sorry if you mistakenly felt I was telling/selliing you shouldn't want what you want. My point was and is the same.....paying 10x for what it costs to make a suit doesn't seem rational to me.


And as I said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that (though I don't think that's what the markup of an Oxxford is, considering the cost of good labor in this country). We should all purchase and wear what we're comfortable with. One should, though, become familiar with the various brands and their respective levels of quality before rushing to judgments about their worths.



> Curious though, the word nearly......does that mean you paid less than a grand?


A fraction. Careful eBay shopping can yeild wonderful gifts.


----------



## Chuck Franke

warfighter said:


> Many thanks Chuck for the thoughtful response.
> 
> One question since you are a moderator. In previous threads I thought I saw that the person selling Palasso, Baroni was going to provide some of this suits for a "dissection".
> 
> Would you be able to shed any light on what the outcome was?


The OR is prepped... still awaiting the arrival of a damaged volunteer to take a look at.

As a side note, the psychiatric community still has no answer on precisely what our collective clothing disorder is called but they seem vaguely concerned....

NOTE: Anything said by me is to be taken as the opinion of just another poster rather than a moderator unless I start out with "Moderator hat on". Blessedly that is a rarity due to the good nature of our membership.


----------



## warfighter

As a side note, the psychiatric community still has no answer on precisely what our collective clothing disorder is called but they seem vaguely concerned....

Chuck, interesting you should write that. I recently read an interesting book written by a psychotherapist on Perpetual Stress and he wrote some interesting observations about how the forces of marketing seem to have convinced some people that if they bought product X (whether it is a new car, certain brand of suit, licquor, beer) that they would be able to enjoy the type of lifestyle they are missing out in.

The analogy he drew was some people exhibit behaviors similar to crack addicts in that they get short time high and than the depression cycle starts back.


----------



## Dapper Dave

warfighter said:


> As a side note, the psychiatric community still has no answer on precisely what our collective clothing disorder is called but they seem vaguely concerned....
> 
> Chuck, interesting you should write that. I recently read an interesting book written by a psychotherapist on Perpetual Stress and he wrote some interesting observations about how the forces of marketing seem to have convinced some people that if they bought product X (whether it is a new car, certain brand of suit, licquor, beer) that they would be able to enjoy the type of lifestyle they are missing out in.
> 
> The analogy he drew was some people exhibit behaviors similar to crack addicts in that they get short time high and than the depression cycle starts back.


Not at all uncommon. Partly explains why I have so many suits. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## Chuck Franke

> The analogy he drew was some people exhibit behaviors similar to crack addicts in that they get short time high and than the depression cycle starts back


Hmmm... first tie free sale?

No wait... that would be... wrong.


----------



## Lino

Dapper Dave said:


> I am one of them. I went about doing a little research as I had never heard of Baroni or Palasso and I came upon this wonderful site. This has been an outstanding thread and very educational for me. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion but, to the point made earlier, if Asian counterfitters and the like can blur the lines as well as they apparently now can what would lead me to pay more?


Ah, but Asian counterfitters are generally only interested in appearance. The fake Rolex of today as the same smooth second hand of a real Rolex, but it will still break in a week or two. A fake iPod may look dead on, but it does not actualy function like a iPod. Fake golf cubs look real, but you would not want to play golf with them. Yes, the fake stuff looks more real, but it is not built to the same levels of quality.

Here is one more math exercise. Lets say you buy a Baroni or Palasso for $400 and expect to wear it for 3 years. And I buy a Canali on sale for $800 and expect to get 8 years of service out of it. Who had the better deal?



Dapper Dave said:


> I liken the issue to buying a Toyota version of a Lexus. They are so similar in quality that it makes little sense (to ME) to pay the markup for the privilege of "driving a Lexus".


If there is no difference in quality in the two products then you may be correct. Also remember, not all suit's have the same cut or silhouette. Cut and fit is very important here.

Look, Dapper, warfighter, Jeff, et al. this group is very sensitive to quality and cost. They beleive certain brands that are "designer labels" that others go ga-ga over, are simply not worth their time. An example, I was in the Paul Smith shop and looked at some of their suits, nearly all of the suits were fused and a few semi-canvassed, all where aroung $1500 I believe-I walked out shaking my head disappointed. Some here think some of the brands they beleive are quality brands (not designer brands, but brands they like due to consistant quality, fit, and a cut they think looks good on them) are overpriced and will only buy them on discount. Not everyone here is rich either, but most are interested in quality, nearly all are interested in classic style that is timeless.

I keep thinking, what would happen if Dapper, warfighter, Jeff, et al. tried applying the same logic they are using for suits and cars to shoes?


----------



## rnoldh

*Are we going to compare Jeff's suits to name brands?*

What is happening to the Baroni-Brioni Challenge?

Baroni-Samuelsohn Challenge doesn't sound as good!


----------



## dragon

Did Andy ever receive the suits from Jeff for the inspection and challenge?


----------



## warfighter

*How much longer?*

Though I am a new member to posting, I have researched the previous posts and my understanding is that Jeff has offered up a Baroni for comparison to satisfy that Baroni is a reasonable quality or validate some member's thoughts that Baroni isn't all that, so I am struggling to understand why no one has taken him on it.

Thoughts?


----------



## Chuck Franke

warfighter said:


> Though I am a new member to posting, I have researched the previous posts and my understanding is that Jeff has offered up a Baroni for comparison to satisfy that Baroni is a reasonable quality or validate some member's thoughts that Baroni isn't all that, so I am struggling to understand why no one has taken him on it.
> 
> Thoughts?


Actually I think I offered to take him up on it and I'll donate the 'others' from my stocks in the interest of Sartorology. I'll donate an evening of my time and the photo studio too as it ought to make a nice educational post for forumites. No sense wasting a perfectly good one, see if he's got one with a flaw.


----------



## EL72

Dapper Dave said:


> The point about not wanting to wear a suit for 10 years is a good one. I have a probably 10-12 suits and I find that I just don't want to wear the same ones. Styles have changed - including my own personal style. I figure if I wear a nice suit for 3 years it's probably enough.


I disagree. If you buy quality suits that fit well in classic cuts and patterns, why would you want to replace a perfectly good suit after 3 years? Unless you are buying designer fashion suits in weird colors or Thom Browne, a good suit will not look dated in 10 yrs.


----------



## DocHolliday

EL72 said:


> I disagree. If you buy quality suits that fit well in classic cuts and patterns, why would you want to replace a perfectly good suit after 3 years? Unless you are buying designer fashion suits in weird colors or Thom Browne, a good will not look dated in 10 yrs.


I still wear sportcoats my grandfather wore 60 years!


----------



## JeffT

Just popping my head in quickly. Baroni makes three different lines. Their Chinese line which is half canvas and in my opinion every bit as nice as their Italian line.

A base Italian line, their higher end Italian CS line and their high end FS or Fashion line that normally uses fabric from a famous mill. They no longer make their CS or FS lines but I still have access to some broken sizes.

I was mistaken when I indicated all Baroni's were full canvas and have made the correction to the auctions. Only the Chinese are half canvas and the Italian is fused. Unfortunately Enzo is no longer making suits : (

I don't like to advertise my marketing secrets on a public forum but when I indicate a suit has a Zegna, Brioni, Kiton cut I am using that term to catch the Ebay search engine legally. As you all well know there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut ; )

Coming soon are the Baroni Italian made and also Chinese made pure 100% buttery soft cashmere blazers and overcoats in camel, navy and black. $425 for the blazers and $450 for the topcoats.

Jeff


----------



## EL72

WALTER123 said:


> I don't like to advertise my marketing secrets on a public forum but when I indicate a suit has a Zegna, Brioni, Kiton cut I am using that term to catch the Ebay search engine legally. As you all well know there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut ; )


----------



## Chuck Franke

No... that is absolutely NOT legal.


----------



## nerdykarim

I don't think it's against the keyword spamming policy, but someone could easily claim that the item received was not as described because it was not cut like the <insert designer here> suit in his closet.



> I don't like to advertise my marketing secrets on a public forum but when I indicate a suit has a Zegna, Brioni, Kiton cut I am using that term to catch the Ebay search engine legally. As you all well know there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut ; )


...and that's pretty much an admission of guilt.









https://pages.ebay.com/help/tutorial/searchandbrowseman/a3.html

Walter123-if you wish to build credibility on the forum, you really should send one of your suits to Chuck. If your Chinese-made Baronis are truly half-canvassed, many forum members would probably recommend your store to individuals seeking relatively inexpensive suits at a decent value. You really don't have much to lose.


----------



## GMF

From what I've seen of his auctions, he follows the rule set out below to the letter. He never describes a suit as having more than one "name brand" cut. Some he compares to Zegna, others to Kiton, others to Brioni. But you won't find all three of these brand names listed together in the description of one suit.



nerdykarim said:


> I don't think it's against the keyword spamming policy, but someone could easily claim that the item received was not as described because it was not cut like the <insert designer here> suit in his closet.
> 
> ...and that's pretty much an admission of guilt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://pages.ebay.com/help/tutorial/searchandbrowseman/a3.html


----------



## Chuck Franke

I am wrong:

*Comparisons:* Sellers are not permitted to make comparisons between items in a listing title. In the description only, sellers are permitted to compare the item being offered to the functionality of one other similar product, so long as the listing is not misleading in any way as to which company made the item offered. 

*Example not allowed:*
The titles "Leather Handbag, like Chanel","Leather Handbag, Chanel style", or "Leather handbag, not Chanel" are not permitted on eBay because they make comparisons between the appearance of the item being offered, a leather handbag, to a Chanel handbag.

*Example allowed:*

"This vacuum cleaner does a much better job at cleaning ground-in dirt than Acme brand vacuum cleaners."


You can say that a Nikkoletta tie rivals Kiton evidently as long as you do so in the description


----------



## Chuck Franke

...And to think I got 200 auctions killed because I said the tie was by Carlo Franco. Powerseller support explained that CF is a trademark and I was infringing on it.


----------



## GMF

Chuck Franke said:


> ...And to think I got 200 auctions killed because I said the tie was by Carlo Franco. Powerseller support explained that CF is a trademark and I was infringing on it.




Isn't it _your_ trademark?


----------



## GMF

nerdykarim said:


> I just want to say that I think that even though it may be technically legal, I don't like it. I have harsher words, but I will reserve them.


----------



## Chuck Franke

GMF said:


> Isn't it _your_ trademark?


----------



## JMatt

Chuck Franke said:


> ...And to think I got 200 auctions killed because I said the tie was by Carlo Franco. Powerseller support explained that CF is a trademark and I was infringing on it.


Well shame on you for using Carlo Franco's good name to hawk your wares! Next thing you know, you'll be claiming your goods are Sartorial Solutions!


----------



## JeffT

Excuse me? Who the Heck do you think you are talking to? Do I look that new to you with almost 12,000 transaction @ 100%? This almost is starting to sound like my Grandma's knitting circle.

Nerdy, I don't really care what your "Reserved" words are. Ebay is all business to me not a social party so unless you are buying a suit you can take your reserved words a walking.. I do not waste my time with people finger pointing from a position of complete and total ignorance when I am a top professional in my field.

Do you guys really think I do not know what I am doing on Ebay? Sheesh.......Considering I am Ebay's top seller in men's clothing and their ONLY "Titanium level" in clothing with my own Ebay senior account manager I think I might know what I am talking about when I choose to post. Especially, since I list approx. two thousand auctions a week and am in contact with Ebay almost daily.

I should have known better than to share my wisdom with those who are not able to respect it or understand and am insulted. You may use any name in any manner as a comparison in the details of the auction. You may not use misleading words in the heading or titles or sub-titles. This is my last communication on this subject since I do not have the time to teach an Ebay class.

CF. You got screwed and if you email me @ [email protected] I will be happy to explain how it happened and how to protect yourself. As cocky as this sounds no one knows the ins and outs of ebay as well as I do and I can show you how to fix it.

FYI. Andy has a suit, a tie and shirt so I have done my end. You, guys can argue it out from here as I am waaaay to busy to sit here and argue about who shot Charlie.

Regards,
Jeff


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## Lino

Chuck Franke said:


> *Comparisons:* Sellers are not permitted to make comparisons between items in a listing title. In the description only, *sellers are permitted to compare the item being offered to the functionality of one other similar product, so long as the listing is not misleading in any way as to which company made the item offered. *


But the comparison is bogus, and Jeff admits as much. He claims the suits have a cut or silhouette that is similar to brand _____ (insert one: Kiton, Zegna, Brioni), but the cut of the suit offered does not. He also claims in his estimate that, "there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut." Not only is that not exactly true as these makers can be considered to do a certain silhouette, but Jeff is saying in no uncertain terms that he is making comparison he does not believe to be true.

It may not be against the letter of the rules, but it is not ethical.


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## Lino

WALTER123 said:


> I should have known better than to share my wisdom with those who are not able to respect it or understand and am insulted. You may use any name in any manner as a comparison in the details of the auction. You may not use misleading words in the heading or titles or sub-titles. This is my last communication on this subject since I do not have the time to teach an Ebay class.


So, I can sell a Bic pen and say it writes like a Mont Blanc in the description? And that is legal, eithical and OK? Wow!


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## GMF

Lino said:


> He also claims in his estimate that, "there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut." Not only is that not exactly true as these makers can be considered to do a certain silhouette, but Jeff is saying in no uncertain terms that he is making comparison he does not believe to be true.


What I took him to be saying is that there is no such thing as a _single_ Kiton cut, or Brioni cut, or whatever. Therefore, to say that a suit has a "Kiton cut" is essentially nonsense since Kiton makes suits of varying styles and cuts.

All this ethical pontificating and "holier than thou" crap is childish, IMHO.


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## Chuck Franke

It does clarify some things for me. When you have a brand not everyone knows such as say, Samuelsohn, I generally describe it as being in the same class as Hickey Freeman. If I'm describing one of the better Pal Zileri or Belvest suits I describe the quality in relation to Canali and Brioni (better than A, not as good as B).

...but I spell them H!ckey Freeman, Br1oni, Cana1i because I figured that ebay would ding me for search word interference. Did not read the rulebook closely enough.

Brands that don't have name recognition don't do well on eBay. An armani will get more looks than a Zileri 5:1... such is the nature of the world.

PS> Jeff - comparing this group to an old ladies' knitting circle might be legal under eBay rules but will likely not win friends and influence people, temper temper


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## Lino

GMF said:


> What I took him to be saying is that there is no such thing as a _single_ Kiton cut, or Brioni cut, or whatever. Therefore, to say that a suit has a "Kiton cut" is essentially nonsense since Kiton makes suits of varying styles and cuts.
> 
> All this ethical pontificating and "holier than thou" crap is childish, IMHO.


Lets all take a breathe or two before this becomes a flame war.

I view on the whole thread and subject is that on the one hand, I really want to the suits be as promised and for the seller to be a good source of decent staple suits at steal. The seller posted at length early in the thread about his theories on quality vs. price-if the suits are all he makes them out to be then I will be a buyer. Really, I want to beleive. On the other hand, perhaps it's a vibe or I don't know what, but red flags keep going up for me, so other hand, while I want to believe, so far, I just don't.

My questions earlier, though on retrospect may have seemed pointed, where the questions on an interested buyer trying to untangle a prelexing array of details that seemed to contradict eachother-which is a big red-flag for me.

As to the comparisons. Jeff did say he makes them not as real comparisons, but to trick the eBay search engine. This may seem like a no-brainer way to boost sales to him, but to me it's not playing fair. Now I have no right to tell him how to make a living, but I do have a right as a consumer to call foul when I do not approve of how someone does business as it effects fellow consumers.


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## Bradford

I don't know about the Ebay keyword rules, but I am the owner of a Mantoni tuxedo purchased from Jeff and very happy with it. 

Additionally, I left very positive feedback because the original tuxedo I was sent was mismarked (said 42L but fit like a 42R) and the customer service I received was excellent as he not only responded quickly to my e-mail, but even paid the shipping to replace with the correct size.

IMHO, the quality of the merchandise he sells is excellent. Sure it's fused, but other than the small percentage of us on these forums, most people probably don't have a clue. I have gotten compliments from many people on my tuxedo and I love the fact that I paid under $200 for it - especially considering I only have occasion to wear it 2 or 3 times a year.


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## GMF

Lino said:


> As to the comparisons. Jeff did say he makes them not as real comparisons, but to trick the eBay search engine. This may seem like a no-brainer way to boost sales to him, but to me it's not playing fair. Now I have no right to tell him how to make a living, but I do have a right as a consumer to call foul when I do not approve of how someone does business as it effects fellow consumers.


This is ridiculous. How is this not playing fair? How does using certain key words in order to pick up ebay searches "effect [sic] fellow consumers"? He is not selling his product as a genuine Kiton, Brioni, Zegna, or whatever. Nor does he even claim the suits are the same quality. He simply draws a comparison to the style of some of these well known brands and he uses these brand names as key words in order to direct shoppers to his auctions--many who might want a $6000 Kiton suit and can't afford one, but could afford a $200-$300 Baroni, Firado, or whatever.


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## Lino

GMF said:


> This is ridiculous. How is this not playing fair? How does using certain key words in order to pick up ebay searches "effect [sic] fellow consumers"? He is not selling his product as a genuine Kiton, Brioni, Zegna, or whatever. Nor does he even claim the suits are the same quality. He simply draws a comparison to the style of some of these well known brands and he uses these brand names as key words in order to direct shoppers to his auctions--many who might want a $6000 Kiton suit and can't afford one, but could afford a $200-$300 Baroni, Firado, or whatever.


A comparission between styles that he admits do not compare-and the purpose not of giving the consumer a point of reference to a lesser known brand, but rather to play the serch engine. Sorry, I don't like it.

I also do not understand why if you go over this thread the descriptions of the origin and construction of the suits is so confused and unclear.

GMF, I've come to respect your opinion on many things from reading your posts on the forum and loved the "what I am wearing" series, but I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## pt4u67

FWIW some may believe the practice to be unethical however the proprietor does have a point in that ebay allows for this practice therefore it is at least in keeping with the letter of the rules. The rest is just marketing. His intentions may be that more people recognize a comparison to Brioni when it comes to "cut." He does not claim it to compare in any other respect. I feel that one still needs to be a well informed consumer and make smart and sensible choices. That will trump the best marketing effort.

Personally I feel that a $350 Baroni is just that...a $350 suit and not an $1800 suit selling for $350. If one uses that as a jumping off point I think it would be a good start.


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## GMF

Lino said:


> A comparission between styles that he admits do not compare ...


He didn't say that.


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## ice

Lino said:


> So, I can sell a Bic pen and say it writes like a Mont Blanc in the description? And that is legal, eithical and OK? Wow!


Actually, this would be true. A Montblanc ballpoint uses almost identical technology and ink as an average Bic ballpoint for writing. There are lots of other differences, but they will write pretty much the same. That is why pen collectors stick mostly with fountain pens, and consider ball point technology crude and simple. So yes, it would be legal, ethical, and OK.

I can see why Jeff is angry. He has been accused of illegal eBay behaviour, unethical behaviour, and misrepresenting his products by members of this forum. Harsh criticism, even if he has admitted that some of his auctions were mistakenly mislabeled as full canvassed when they were not, and that he uses phrases like "Kiton cut" indescriminiately, even though most experts will agree there clearly is a Kiton style of cut. Hmm, well, perhaps the accusations of misrepresentation deserve some consideration, as long as they are kept in context of the cut throat world of eBay.

But seeing as he is such a keen businessman, I bet his biggest concern is that this thread is turning up in Google search hits on his products and his website. This explains the number of new posters on this thread, and probably explains the motive for his fascinating contributions. Two thousand auctions a week means thousands of google searches on his products and store each week as well, and if posters perceive anything negative on this thread, that could impact his auctions, his livelihood, and the livelihood of the people who work for him. Such is the cruel democracy of the internet.

I am interested in seeing this thread to its conclusion. I am sure Andy will handle his end with his usual tact, grace, and generally gentlemanly style.


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## GMF

ice said:


> Actually, this would be true. A Montblanc ballpoint uses almost identical technology and ink as an average Bic ballpoint for writing. There are lots of other differences, but they will write pretty much the same. That is why pen collectors stick mostly with fountain pens, and consider ball point technology crude and simple.


Amen to that. I've got a beautiful emerald green laquer Waterman ballpoint pen that cost over a $100. And for sheer smooth writing, it can't hold a candle to a 99 cent Bic (and neither can any of my Cross ballpoints).


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## Dapper Dave

EL72 said:


> I disagree. If you buy quality suits that fit well in classic cuts and patterns, why would you want to replace a perfectly good suit after 3 years? Unless you are buying designer fashion suits in weird colors or Thom Browne, a good suit will not look dated in 10 yrs.


Simply, I seem to be hard on my suits, my tastes change over time, I can afford nicer suits over time and, finally, I like buying new suits!

:icon_smile_big:


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## WPNX

You can argue all you want over how this man sells his suits on eBay, but you cannot argue with this fact: his positive feedback is 100%. 

Think about that and it is quite astounding considering the thousands of transactions he has made. However he is advertising his suits, it is not deceptive enough to warrant even a single negative feedback out of some 7000+ sales! Remarkable if you ask me. I probably wouldn't believe it if ANYONE anywhere told me they had 7000 straight fairly satisfied customers, much less someone selling non-brand name clothing over the internet, but here we are. 

In any case, I am also interested to see how the suit compares, and await word from Andy.


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## Lino

GMF said:


> He didn't say that.


Huh?



WALTER123 said:


> I don't like to advertise my marketing secrets on a public forum but when I indicate a suit has a Zegna, Brioni, Kiton cut I am using that term to catch the Ebay search engine legally. As you all well know there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut ; )


If there is "no such nonsense" and the cut is not similar then why say it?

Again, can we just agree to disagree.


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## GMF

"As you all well know there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut..."

Again, what I interpret him to be saying is that there is no such thing as a _single_ Kiton or Brioni cut, so to say that a suit has a "Kiton cut" is "nonsense" given that Kiton makes suits of varying styles and cuts.


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## Chuck Franke

GMF said:


> "As you all well know there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut..."
> 
> Again, what I interpret him to be saying is that there is no such thing as a _single_ Kiton or Brioni cut, so to say that a suit has a "Kiton cut" is "nonsense" given that Kiton makes suits of varying styles and cuts.


LOL - GMF it would have saved Lino time if you had said that you are an attorney and argue in the gray areas for a living.

...funny part being that Jeff quite honestly admitted he was using the comparison simply to get search engine hits and makes no assertion that his comparison is illustrative in any way.

You attorneys... guy says "I did it" and you can argue for 5 hours over what 'it' is.

NOTE: 7 pages ago someone suggested that saying these were good values for the price range in which they were sold would be sufficient in making this thread positive.


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## GMF

Chuck Franke said:


> You attorneys... guy says "I did it" and you can argue for 5 hours over what 'it' is.


That's right. The predicate is everything. :icon_smile_wink:


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## EL72

GMF said:


> "As you all well know there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut..."
> 
> Again, what I interpret him to be saying is that there is no such thing as a _single_ Kiton or Brioni cut, so to say that a suit has a "Kiton cut" is "nonsense" given that Kiton makes suits of varying styles and cuts.


I think you are making inferences that, while they cannot be refuted directly, clearly go far beyond the simple meaning of what Jeff said. The man said it plain and simple. You can continue to obfuscate his meaning but seriously, as Chuck pointed out, if the suits are good value for the price and he is a reliable seller, let's leave the man to his business. There is really no useful purpose served in comparing his goods to higher-priced items or in debating whether we agree with his marketing tactics.


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## GMF

EL72 said:


> I think you are making inferences that, while they cannot be refuted directly, clearly go far beyond the simple meaning of what Jeff said. The man said it plain and simple. You can continue to obfuscate his meaning but seriously, as Chuck pointed out, if the suits are good value for the price and he is a reliable seller, let's leave the man to his business. There is really no useful purpose served in comparing his goods to higher-priced items or in debating whether we agree with his marketing tactics.


Boo! You're no fun.


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## EL72

GMF said:


> Boo! You're no fun.


I think the fun ended with Jeff's last post. When this concerns the man's business and livelihood, I believe you can find other ways to amuse yourself.


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## GMF

EL72 said:


> I think the fun ended with Jeff's last post. When this concerns the man's business and livelihood, I believe you can find other ways to amuse yourself.


If you look back over my posts in this thread I think you'll see that I have been a firm supporter of Jeff and his suits. I even own one.


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## EL72

GMF said:


> If you look back over my posts in this thread I think you'll see that I have been a firm supporter of Jeff and his suits. I even own one.


I know, but I am not sure you are doing him any service by defending actions he seems to have no issues with, legal or otherwise, and when we all read what he said and very clearly understood what he meant.


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## Dapper Dave

*Boy, did this thread ever come back to life!*

Gents,

I propose that Jeff has earned the right, whatever his marketing, to have his suits judged based on the merits of the SUITS as he has eagerly offered our resident expert a FREE suit to dissect. That is putting your money where your mouth is, is it not? Frankly, I'd be pleased to operate as successful a business as he.

I await the results of the trial - let the chips fall where they may!

:icon_cheers:


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## Teacher

GMF said:


> That's right. The predicate is everything. :icon_smile_wink:


Well, actually it's the direct object (care to guess what I teach?:icon_smile_big: ).


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## GMF

Teacher said:


> Well, actually it's the direct object (care to guess what I teach?:icon_smile_big: ).


I wasn't talking about the word "it." I was talking about the phrase "did it." :icon_smile_wink:


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## zarathustra

I am curious, did anyone here actually read Jeff's ads? Having been involved with Ebay for sometime, the fact that everyone (ok not everyone) is lambasting this guy over taking advantage of the keyword search is amazing. If his ads are decieving, they are only decieving to those people who-- well to be harsh-- are completely ignorant and illiterate. 

To criticize this guy when there are individuals selling counterfeits of clothing, dvds, cd's and anything else they can make a buck on-- is astounding. This is so, especially when Ebay does nothing to assist trademark and copyright holders in protecting their wares. Ebay has consitently thumbed their nose at everyone and stated that "We cannot do anything to stop this."

Sorry for the rant. I just hate seeing guys who happen to be ebay sellers --like jeff -- run through the mud when there is far worse behavior on their that Ebay condones by their inaction.


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## Lino

zarathustra said:


> I am curious, did anyone here actually read Jeff's ads? Having been involved with Ebay for sometime, the fact that everyone (ok not everyone) is lambasting this guy over taking advantage of the keyword search is amazing. If his ads are decieving, they are only decieving to those people who-- well to be harsh-- are completely ignorant and illiterate.


So, if someone is a sucker it is OK to decieve them in order to get their money? (just commenting on your post)



zarathustra said:


> To criticize this guy when there are individuals selling counterfeits of clothing, dvds, cd's and anything else they can make a buck on-- is astounding. This is so, especially when Ebay does nothing to assist trademark and copyright holders in protecting their wares. Ebay has consitently thumbed their nose at everyone and stated that "We cannot do anything to stop this."


Simply because one person does something wrong, does not make another-perhaps lesser-wrong right. (again, just commenting on your post)



zarathustra said:


> Sorry for the rant. I just hate seeing guys who happen to be ebay sellers --like jeff -- run through the mud when there is far worse behavior on their that Ebay condones by their inaction.


See above.

What frustrates me is that the man sells like 3 or 4 brands of suit and yet, it is still unclear what the difference are, which are made in China and which in Italy, etc. If you go to the start of the thread and read, the descriptions are dizzyingly confused. I have trouble with with because I expect a seller of goods to know his goods and be able to describe them clearly to me so I can then make an informed decision. I doubly expect this from a very successful seller-and I do not find that unreasonable at all.

As to the suits and their quality, I am saddened it turns out there are no fully-canvassed suits in the offering-I was genuinely interested in the Baroni. So now, we just need to wait for judging to see if they are decent quality for a $450 fused suit. BTW, is $450 a good price for a fully-fused suit? Can good ones be found in the usual discount stores (FB, C21, STP, Off 5th, NMLC, etc.) from for that or better?

SPT has Arnold Brant's made in Canada for Sale Price: $191.96 Retail: $895.00; Lauren by Ralph Lauren also made in Canada for Sale Price: $199.96 Retail: $495.00; Southwick Super 100's made in the USA for Sale Price: $287.96 Retail: $999.00; Giampaolo Desanti (Semi-fused) made in Italy for Sale Price: $375.96 Retail: $1400.00 ; Gianluca Napoli (three-quarter canvas construction) made in Italy for Sale Price: $399.96 Retail: $999.00. Are these the suits we should compare Jeffs offerings to? If not, then please do let me know which suits we should be comparing them to (for construction and quality, not just cut).


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## vince321

I believe that Baroni has 3/4 front canvassing. So, they are not fully fused suits.

In addition, having clarification of the following statement copied from Jeff's Baroni Ebay add, would be interesting. Based on the cost of these suits, I am somewhat skeptical that the pick stitching is actually hand finished.

"hand finished in Italy, hand pick stitching on the lapels all the way to the hem and around the pocket flaps. No expense was spared on this suit it is first cabin all the way! It features dual side vents, hand basted-canvas backed and hand finished."

It seems as though there is much mis-information or at least a sizable amount of guessing as to the quality and construction of these suits. Therefore, it would be best if we could get an update as to when the test/comparison will be held. A proper review by an expert from this board will put to rest many of the issues.

If someone on this board knows when the "date" for proper analysis of this suit is scheduled, please post.

Thanks.


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## pt4u67

I apologize in advance if this post seems a little cynical however I notice that this thread has attracted numerous new members. I wonder if these are really different people or the same person shilling for the vendor in question? 

I take no personal offense to this but I'm just curious. Anyone else notice this?


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## Chuck Franke

It would have to be a dedicated shill who is technically very savvy.

Let's not speculate on things when the speculation can be harmful. Things like that are watched for closely by the moderators, if the same person signed up for three accounts to shill for someone they would get locked out.


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## Dapper Dave

pt4u67 said:


> I apologize in advance if this post seems a little cynical however I notice that this thread has attracted numerous new members. I wonder if these are really different people or the same person shilling for the vendor in question?
> 
> I take no personal offense to this but I'm just curious. Anyone else notice this?


I am me, no one else, and I came to this site as a result of doing a search on Palazzo or Baroni (I forget which). This site popped up.

Sheesh! Skeptics abound!


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## Brian13

I did not read everything on this thread, but I like you Dapper Dave. Dont mind everyone. Good luck with your ebay business, and I am a relatively brand new AAAC account as well. uh oh.


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## ice

pt4u67 said:


> I apologize in advance if this post seems a little cynical however I notice that this thread has attracted numerous new members. I wonder if these are really different people or the same person shilling for the vendor in question?
> 
> I take no personal offense to this but I'm just curious. Anyone else notice this?


Shill accusations were already brought up and dismissed about 60 posts ago. To quote from my own post, about 20 posts ago:



> But seeing as he is such a keen businessman, I bet his biggest concern is that this thread is turning up in Google search hits on his products and his website. This explains the number of new posters on this thread, and probably explains the motive for his fascinating contributions. Two thousand auctions a week means thousands of google searches on his products and store each week as well, and if posters perceive anything negative on this thread, that could impact his auctions, his livelihood, and the livelihood of the people who work for him. Such is the cruel democracy of the internet.


It seems this thread has become so long that people are not bothering to read it through, but just posting the same questions and observations.


----------



## ice

vince321 said:


> I believe that Baroni has 3/4 front canvassing. So, they are not fully fused suits.
> 
> In addition, having clarification of the following statement copied from Jeff's Baroni Ebay add, would be interesting. Based on the cost of these suits, I am somewhat skeptical that the pick stitching is actually hand finished.
> 
> "hand finished in Italy, hand pick stitching on the lapels all the way to the hem and around the pocket flaps. No expense was spared on this suit it is first cabin all the way! It features dual side vents, hand basted-canvas backed and hand finished."


Jeff initally claimed the Italian Baronis were hand basted canvas, then later realized that only the Chinese Baronis were half-canvassed, and the rest were fused.

I think you copied from an older auction because he has removed the mentions of canvas from the current Baroni Italy auctions.

I suppose that justifies this thread in a way, that at least one misconception has been cleared up and hopefully his ebay customers will benefit from this more accurate description.


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## legb4wicket

Please, let's wait for the 'test' results. 

There is no point in the jury passing judgement until all the evidence has been submitted and evaluated. 

Pax,

LBW


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## vince321

Ice, you're right. At least partially. There are actually two current adds running on Ebay for Baroni suits. One states "Italian Made" and the other "Italian Men's Suit." The part that was highlighted in my post above, is from the "Italian Men's Suit" add. 

By deciphering previous posts in this thread, if one was to purchase an "Italian Men's Suit" by Baroni, it would be 1/2 canvassed and made in China........................I think.


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## acidicboy

hear, hear on the 'test results'... can somebody please give us an update on this before members throw mop buttons at each other like ninja stars!


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## Harrydog

I am a little puzzled why it is taking so long to get the test pulled off :icon_scratch: ....doesn't seem like it is that complex an undertaking.

The lengthy process only continues to raise questions and doubts.

My expectation is that we will conclude that these are decent suits at the price Wizard sells them for and that the MSRP is meaningless....not wanting to start that whole line again.


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## tabasco

*trials take time*

Let's not forgot that the forensic tailoring effort takes both time and a suit, both donated by generous members.

Reminds me of bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken is interested, and the pig is committed.

Patience being the virtue here.


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## smr

Harrydog said:


> I am a little puzzled why it is taking so long to get the test pulled off :icon_scratch: ....doesn't seem like it is that complex an undertaking.
> 
> The lengthy process only continues to raise questions and doubts.
> 
> My expectation is that we will conclude that these are decent suits at the price Wizard sells them for and that the MSRP is meaningless....not wanting to start that whole line again.


As to the MSRP, as well as the brand comparisons, I think that they are both extremely misleading rather than meaningless. If these suits are a good deal at the ebay price, then these exaggerations should not be necessary. What the seller does is not nearly as bad as selling counterfeits, but it's still less than admirable.


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## Bradford

I think the real question is, who cares?

This whole thread seems like jealousy of someone who's figured out a great way to make money on Ebay.

Whether or not the suits are top-of-the-line, Italian-made, full-canvassed items or just fused Chinese apparel, at least he's not passing them off as legitimate names like Armani or Versace.

He's selling suits that look good to customers who want style for a reasonable price. The sheer snobbishness and egotism of some of the members on this forum is beyond belief. 

What Jeff does is his business and I don't recall a press release saying that this forum has been appointed as the official quality-control arbiter of Ebay.

If you don't like his wares, don't buy them. But constantly harping on about it and questioning of his advertising techniques and products reflects much worse on this forum than it does on The Wizard of Aahs.


----------



## Teacher

Bradford said:


> This whole thread seems like jealousy of someone who's figured out a great way to make money on Ebay.


In all frankness, that's a childish assertion.



> Whether or not the suits are top-of-the-line, Italian-made, full-canvassed items or just fused Chinese apparel, at least he's not passing them off as legitimate names like Armani or Versace.


That is a different issue. The issue here is what the suits are represented to be, value-wise, and certain comparisons that are being made or implied. Just because he's not committing one crime doesn't mean he isn't committing another. (I'm not saying he IS; rather, IF he WERE, just because it isn't a different deception doesn't excuse it.)



> He's selling suits that look good to customers who want style for a reasonable price.


Once again, nobody is disputing that.



> The sheer snobbishness and egotism of some of the members on this forum is beyond belief.


Demanding full disclosure and disputing someone's comparisons is hardly snobbishness OR egotism. Please use a dictionary.



> What Jeff does is his business [. . .]


Not when others may be misled.



> [. . .] and I don't recall a press release saying that this forum has been appointed as the official quality-control arbiter of Ebay.


Judging from your tone, it seems that would be _you_.



> If you don't like his wares, don't buy them. But constantly harping on about it and questioning of his advertising techniques and products reflects much worse on this forum than it does on The Wizard of Aahs.


Perhaps you didn't read the entire thread. What sent up the red flags was some of the comparisons to top brands being made in addition to some of the MSRP's that have been listed. Nobody has said these suits aren't a good value (a couple of posters have, in fact, piped up saying they were); however, the question is whether these comparisons and MSRP's are _fair._ Please, this is all rehash...just read the rest of the thread. And the answers will come in time.


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## cdavant

I'm just waiting to buy. I need a vote for "Good Value" for the price. I really don't care if the MSRP is $2300 or $4000 if I'm paying $300 for something members agree is worth $400. Better worth $600 retail. Just tell me if I can expect the next decade out of the fabric and construction.
I am a bit concerned about his return policy, being either a 40S, 41S or JAB 42S with alterations and no experience with how well a suit mirrors a sport coat mirrors a blazer in his sizing. I'm happy to pay shipping both ways on a bargain that won't fit, but I don't want to get stuck altering a jacket that was one size too large in his lines.
Would he loosen up his return policy for AAFF members who want to try one on for size?


----------



## rnoldh

cdavant said:


> I'm just waiting to buy. I need a vote for "Good Value" for the price. I really don't care if the MSRP is $2300 or $4000 if I'm paying $300 for something members agree is worth $400. Better worth $600 retail. Just tell me if I can expect the next decade out of the fabric and construction.
> I am a bit concerned about his return policy, being either a 40S, 41S or JAB 42S with alterations and no experience with how well a suit mirrors a sport coat mirrors a blazer in his sizing. I'm happy to pay shipping both ways on a bargain that won't fit, but I don't want to get stuck altering a jacket that was one size too large in his lines.
> Would he loosen up his return policy for AAFF members who want to try one on for size?


I don't feel like reading through this entire thread again, but I seem to remember that Jeff said he would treat AAAC'ers especially well. So, I would definitely ask about a return policy that would work for you.

I'm sure that he wouldn't want all of his customers to be like us though. Too picky, and knowledgeable! At least that goes for me. My take is that he has a great Ebay business going, and provides a very good relative value.

For the $300-400 that his customers are buying their suits for, I think they are getting a good value for their money, and almost 100% are happy. There's something to be said for that!

If someone were to constantly check out the Brick and Mortar sales(i.e. Saks Off5th, Barney's Warehouse, etc), they could conceivably do better. And if someone were to be very knowledgeable about on-line shopping, and utilized STP, Yoox, they might do a little better. But most people, and certainly most of Jeff's buyers, are not as knowledgeable or interested in clothes as we are! So I can easily see where his operation is successful and serves a wide market.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would still like to see"The Suit Challenge" take place.


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## Teacher

rnoldh said:


> I don't know about the rest of you, but I would still like to see"The Suit Challenge" take place.


I think we all would, and it sounds like it will.


----------



## smr

Bradford said:


> I think the real question is, who cares?
> 
> This whole thread seems like jealousy of someone who's figured out a great way to make money on Ebay.
> 
> Whether or not the suits are top-of-the-line, Italian-made, full-canvassed items or just fused Chinese apparel, at least he's not passing them off as legitimate names like Armani or Versace.
> 
> He's selling suits that look good to customers who want style for a reasonable price. The sheer snobbishness and egotism of some of the members on this forum is beyond belief.
> 
> What Jeff does is his business and I don't recall a press release saying that this forum has been appointed as the official quality-control arbiter of Ebay.
> 
> If you don't like his wares, don't buy them. But constantly harping on about it and questioning of his advertising techniques and products reflects much worse on this forum than it does on The Wizard of Aahs.


Members here have the right to voice an opinion just as you do. No snobbishness and egotism just because members criticize what they see as misleading practices.

If I ever want an "okay" suit from a brand that most people have not heard of, I'll go to Value City and pay $160 or less in most cases--funny, they don't list a retail price of $2000 or have salesmen who make comparisons to Kiton for suits that are just not in that league or anywhere near it.

This sort of topic about this or similar ebay sellers has come up before on this site, and they have faded quickly in prior cases. It's dragged on here because the seller joined the debate and given defenses of his practices that at least some here have now criticized. Nothing wrong with the seller making his case and others then agreeing or disagreeing. Has nothing to do with "jealousy" or "snobbishness," as you put it.


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## JeffT

To begin with I truly do not believe there is anything unethical about making a comparison to something that does not exist. For example: "The car I am selling is faster than the Ferrari Mach 5 or the Lamborgini X15". The comparison is complete nonsense and anyone with half a brain knows it as such.

Please understand I do not have to defend my legal selling techniques in this forum or in any other forum. I refuse to get into arguments with people who want to publicly debate the intricate aspects of my business which is in my opinion non of their business so I will end this here and now.

I feel I run the most respectable, honest business on Ebay as my feedback and Titanium Powerseller status clearly reflects. I have offered a no risk guarantee to anyone from this site and a few members have taken me up on it. Guess what? I have a few more letters of recommendation to post on my site :icon_cheers:

I present this for all of the "Haters" who have insulted me and lambasted my techniques. Put up or shut up. Please explain exactly what makes a Kiton cut different from a Brioni cut with references and proof so you may shed light on the rest of us on how you came to the conclusion and conviction that my practice is unethical.

Regards,
Jeff


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## dragon

When I purchased a suit from him, Jeff was pretty lenient with the return policy if it did not fit. There were no hassles from him at all. I let him know that I was an AAAC member.

The 42 R that I ordered seemed to be the size that all other 42R I own.


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## JeffT

PS, Our real return policy is we offer hassle free exchanges or 100% refunds at not cost to you.  

The reason we post a different "No return" policy in auction is because when I first started selling I had a few unsavory individuals purchase 5-10 suits at a time and then return all of them or most of them for no 
apparent reason. I had to come up with a way to stop them from window shopping at my expense.


----------



## Teacher

WALTER123 said:


> To begin with I truly do not believe there is anything unethical about making a comparison to something that does not exist. For example: "The car I am selling is faster than the Ferrari Mach 5 or the Lamborgini X15". The comparison is complete nonsense and anyone with half a brain knows it as such.
> 
> Please understand I do not have to defend my legal selling techniques in this forum or in any other forum. I refuse to get into arguments with people who want to publicly debate the intricate aspects of my business which is in my opinion non of their business so I will end this here and now.
> 
> I feel I run the most respectable, honest business on Ebay as my feedback and Titanium Powerseller status clearly reflects. I have offered a no risk guarantee to anyone from this site and a few members have taken me up on it. Guess what? I have a few more letters of recommendation to post on my site :icon_cheers:
> 
> I present this for all of the "Haters" who have insulted me and lambasted my techniques. Put up or shut up. Please explain exactly what makes a Kiton cut different from a Brioni cut with references and proof so you may shed light on the rest of us on how you came to the conclusion and conviction that my practice is unethical.
> 
> Regards,
> Jeff


This is rather strange. You have questionable claims, ethereal...even invented...MSRP's, and even admit to comparisons that don't really hold. Then, when people simply point these out, you get all worked up. Look, _you're_ the one making the claims and the money, not me, so the burdon of proof is on you. You're obviously not content to submit your suit and let the judges do their jobs, which is what I've been waiting for. Instead, you get defensive at the least questioning. Well, too bad. If you're going to make claims that you yourself admit are questionable among a group of knowledgable people, you will be called on it.

(References?? What is this, a scholarly journal? Please.)

As I've said more than once, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until the results are in, and I'm sure your suits are worth the prices paid. However, defensive rants like this make it hard.


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## Lino

cdavant said:


> I am a bit concerned about his return policy, being either a 40S, 41S or JAB 42S with alterations and no experience with how well a suit mirrors a sport coat mirrors a blazer in his sizing. I'm happy to pay shipping both ways on a bargain that won't fit, but I don't want to get stuck altering a jacket that was one size too large in his lines.
> Would he loosen up his return policy for AAFF members who want to try one on for size?


Check out STP, they had some suits in your price range, they have great return policy, no shipping, sometimes added discounts, and if you there with this link I beleive you help support this site: https://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/click?id=1GmxqfbT53Q&offerid=42083.10000283&type=4&subid=0


----------



## Lino

WALTER123 said:


> I present this for all of the "Haters" who have insulted me and lambasted my techniques. Put up or shut up. Please explain exactly what makes a Kiton cut different from a Brioni cut with references and proof so you may shed light on the rest of us on how you came to the conclusion and conviction that my practice is unethical.


No haters here, just some skeptics.

Brioni exemplifies the Roman cut, Kiton is Neapolitan. If you do not know the difference then I invite you to:
1) read this thread: https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=5067&highlight=kiton+brioni+cut

In particular, this post:

2) search the posts on this forum and www.styleforum.net
3) Ready "The Suit: A Machiavellian Approach to Men's Style" by Nicholas Antongiavanni


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## Lino

WALTER123 said:


> Just popping my head in quickly. Baroni makes three different lines. Their Chinese line which is half canvas and in my opinion every bit as nice as their Italian line.
> 
> A base Italian line, their higher end Italian CS line and their high end FS or Fashion line that normally uses fabric from a famous mill. They no longer make their CS or FS lines but I still have access to some broken sizes.
> 
> I was mistaken when I indicated all Baroni's were full canvas and have made the correction to the auctions. Only the Chinese are half canvas and the Italian is fused.


Are these Chines or Italian? Half- or full-canvassed?

These 35 suits all still say "hand basted-canvas":


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## Chuck Franke

Of the 35 suits, how many are black? Would a black Baroni suit be acceptable for business?

I try to behave, I swear I do... sometimes my fingers hit the keyboard and it's as if some evil alien has taken over.



Anyhow
I do know that Andy got his suit and described it as being quite nice with some fusing and a canvas front, seemingly nice fabric.

I think Jeff kinda walked into a buzzsaw here. He is accustomed to a marketplace where the keyword Armani will draw 10X the looks of a Belvest. Having not seen one of the suits in person, my inclination is to believe that in the price class in which he is selling he has a product that is better than most in the pricerange and probably compares favorably to many designer suits at twice the price.

Jeff's crime, if there is one, is not knowing THIS audience too well and well, methinx he understands it better now. He does know HIS market quite well and is, in no uncertain terms, performing off-the-charts well.

The fact that the guy is running a multi-million dollar business on ebay with a huge percentage of return custoemrs and such an incredible feedback history MORE than suggests he's treating his customers well and they are happy. Just pointing that out as food for thought.

More convincingly, the folks on this forum - whether brand new or around for some time - who have chimed in did not seem to have a single complaint. 

I'm actually anxious to see one and rip it open when he gets one damaged, no sense killing a perfectly good one until then.

My further speculation is that he can probably improve the product by listening to the folks here a bit - if you make this audience happy, the average consumer will be spellbound with delight.

Hang in there Jeff, can the knitting circle cracks and you'll be just fine


----------



## A Harris

*Sorry, but I'm going to have to take on the bad cop role here:*



> Do you guys really think I do not know what I am doing on Ebay? Sheesh.......Considering I am Ebay's top seller in men's clothing and their ONLY "Titanium level" in clothing with my own Ebay senior account manager I think I might know what I am talking about when I choose to post. Especially, since I list approx. two thousand auctions a week and am in contact with Ebay almost daily.


I think you know exactly what you are doing. And it all seems to be quite legal. However I also think that what you are doing is not entirely aboveboard from an ethical perspective. I have no doubt your suits are an excellent value for the money. I think it is quite evident that your customer service is top notch. But I do have a problem with the fact that nearly every auction you list is titled with a "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail" price that has no basis in reality. I would imagine that your manufacturers are quite willing to suggest these fantasy retail prices so that your claims can be technically correct. However, that does not change the fact that your auctions carry the implication that the customer is purchasing a very expensive suit at a substantial discount, when they are in fact purchasing a suit at retail, or very close to it. Were it readily apparent to all your customers that yours is a retail operation, I have serious reservations as to whether you would continue to occupy your "top seller in men's clothing" spot.

It also grates when I see the spirit of ebay's ridiculously ineffective keyword spamming policy being violated with impunity, especially as they have a bad habit of enforcing the letter of it on auctions that make LEGITIMATE comparisons.

Finally, I commend you for doing the right thing in removing some of the "canvas" references from many of your auctions. But I also think, from a legal as well as ethical perspective, that you should closely examine some of your other claims such as "hand pick stitching", "hand basted", and "hand finished".


----------



## Lino

A Harris said:


> Finally, I commend you for doing the right thing in removing some of the "canvas" references from many of your auctions. But I also think, from a legal as well as ethical perspective, that you should closely examine some of your other claims such as "hand pick stitching", "hand basted", and "hand finished".


I think I'm in A Harris's camp everything he said. Except the Baroni's still say "hand basted-canvas". A search for auctions of the term "hand basted-canvas" within title and description turns up 39 (up from 35 lastnight, which would indicate that new auctions are being added with this phrase). I also found 134 instances of the phrase "hand basted-canvas" used within The Wizard of Aahs eBay store.

Many of these say "Italian Made":


WALTER123 said:


> Just popping my head in quickly. Baroni makes three different lines. Their Chinese line which is half canvas and in my opinion every bit as nice as their Italian line.
> 
> A base Italian line, their higher end Italian CS line and their high end FS or Fashion line that normally uses fabric from a famous mill. They no longer make their CS or FS lines but I still have access to some broken sizes.
> 
> I was mistaken when I indicated all Baroni's were full canvas and have made the correction to the auctions. Only the Chinese are half canvas and the Italian is fused.


Jeff, what's up with this.


----------



## GMF

A Harris said:


> But I do have a problem with the fact that nearly every auction you list is titled with a "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail" price that has no basis in reality.


The same thing can be said for just about any garment sold at any brick-and-mortar store you care to name. The markup on clothing, especially now since the production of most of it has moved to third world countries, is astronomical.


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## smr

GMF said:


> The same thing can be said for just about any garment sold at any brick-and-mortar store you care to name. The markup on clothing, especially now since the production of most of it has moved to third world countries, is astronomical.


Are we talking about markup, or the true retail price of clothing, and with better suits, that retail price does mean something in terms of the quality or unique styling that you get for the price? Also, if I find an Oxxford suit that I know sells for $2500 and up at retail, and I get it for $750, I know that I got a great deal. If you get one of Jeff's suits for $300, do you know that you get a great deal in the same way as with the Oxxford suit? I don't think so, even if it is "fairly" priced. Jeff's retail price is misleading.


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## warfighter

*Reverse your theory?*



smr said:


> Are we talking about markup, or the true retail price of clothing, and with better suits, that retail price does mean something in terms of the quality or unique styling that you get for the price? Also, if I find an Oxxford suit that I know sells for $2500 and up at retail, and I get it for $750, I know that I got a great deal. If you get one of Jeff's suits for $300, do you know that you get a great deal in the same way as with the Oxxford suit? I don't think so, even if it is "fairly" priced. Jeff's retail price is misleading.


Let me ask you a different way - if you knew that the Oxxford was $2500 and you saw it for $750 would you wonder if you were being taken or if there was a defect in the suit that caused a deep discount? Would you wonder what the profit for $750 was?

What's the difference between the "I got a $2500 (MSRP) for $750" and "I paid $300 for a suit that cost $150 wholesale"

Do some google research and you will find that Chinese manufacturing plants are quoting prices of $150 for wools suits with minimum orders of 700 suits.

The global e-commerce is getting flatter, the younger Italians are not wanting/willing to follow in their parents footsteps and become tailors, inflation and unemployment is hurting Italy, companies are looking to decrease costs and increase profits.

Bottom line is I am not trying to convince anyone that Baroni are just as good as Brioni, just that I am not willing to pay for the mystique.


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## GMF

smr said:


> Are we talking about markup, or the true retail price of clothing ... ?


Markup _is _the true retail price of clothing. The retail price is nothing but an arbitrary price point set by the seller (and often "recommended" by the manufacturer, hence "MSRP").

If you buy an Oxxford suit on sale for $750 that had a retail of $2500, and seller is still making money, just think how much _more_ money they made on the suits just like it that they sold at full retail.


----------



## warfighter

*A bad cop with an even badder attitude*



A Harris said:


> I think you know exactly what you are doing. And it all seems to be quite legal. However I also think that what you are doing is not entirely aboveboard from an ethical perspective. I have no doubt your suits are an excellent value for the money. I think it is quite evident that your customer service is top notch. But I do have a problem with the fact that nearly every auction you list is titled with a "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail" price that has no basis in reality. I would imagine that your manufacturers are quite willing to suggest these fantasy retail prices so that your claims can be technically correct. However, that does not change the fact that your auctions carry the implication that the customer is purchasing a very expensive suit at a substantial discount, when they are in fact purchasing a suit at retail, or very close to it. Were it readily apparent to all your customers that yours is a retail operation, I have serious reservations as to whether you would continue to occupy your "top seller in men's clothing" spot.
> 
> It also grates when I see the spirit of ebay's ridiculously ineffective keyword spamming policy being violated with impunity, especially as they have a bad habit of enforcing the letter of it on auctions that make LEGITIMATE comparisons.
> 
> Finally, I commend you for doing the right thing in removing some of the "canvas" references from many of your auctions. But I also think, from a legal as well as ethical perspective, that you should closely examine some of your other claims such as "hand pick stitching", "hand basted", and "hand finished".


Please with your pristine approach to marketing, give some examples of what MSRPs are steeped in reality?

MSRPs are done to appeal to the psyche of our most primal emotions.......no one ever wants to be taken advantage of or pay in excess of the value. Every company knows this, auto manufacturers, appliance, electronics... "buy product X which normally goes for $895 now on sale for $450".

I note you own worldclassconsignments. Don't you use the MSRP in deciding what price you set?


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## JMatt

I see two distinct differences:

FIRST

There are many people who have/will pay $1,500 for a Corneliani, Canali, or Zegna. There are many people who will pay $3,000+ for an Oxxford, Brioni, or Kiton.

No one has ever paid $1500 for a Baroni.

SECOND

Given the first difference, when one pays $375 for a Zegna, one knows that all of the markup is gone. The people in the demand curve who would pay full price are gone. The people who would pay 50% on "sale" are gone. Now the suit has hit the clearance folks, because Saks doesn't want one unmatched suit on the rack, and new product must take that space. So there are those who buy the Canali from Filene's or ebay for $375, knowing that the margin was squeezed out, and they just got the most suit possible for their $375.

With a Baroni at $375 (or wahtever the real price is), the unsuspecting THINK they are buying a suit with all the margin squeezed out because its on ebay, and because a high MSRP was quoted. Instead of getting the most possible suit for $375, they accidentally found themselves on that point on the demand curve where the consumer pair the most ever for the suit.

________________

Please note - this has nothing to do with the relative quality of the Baroni. I've never seen one, and probably never will. Perhaps they really are great. Perhaps not. The point is, the consumer is being tricked into a point on the demand curve which they would not otherwise occuppy absent the deception.

(Some may purchase eyes wide open, but they do so knowingly, and made a purchase based on where they were on the demand curve, and the element of deception is then gone.)


----------



## GMF

JMatt said:


> There are many people who have/will pay $1,500 for a Corneliani, Canali, or Zegna. There are many people who will pay $3,000+ for an Oxxford, Brioni, or Kiton. No one has ever paid $1500 for a Baroni.


All this indicates is that those namebrands have developed a market that will support a price point of $3000+. And while they produce quality garments, the retail price is still market driven and arbitrary. It is only a reflection of the relative quality of the garment in the mind of the consumer.


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## warfighter

*Teacher, methinks you are slightly jealous*



Teacher said:


> This is rather strange. You have questionable claims, ethereal...even invented...MSRP's, and even admit to comparisons that don't really hold. Then, when people simply point these out, you get all worked up. Look, _you're_ the one making the claims and the money, not me, so the burdon of proof is on you. You're obviously not content to submit your suit and let the judges do their jobs, which is what I've been waiting for. Instead, you get defensive at the least questioning. Well, too bad. If you're going to make claims that you yourself admit are questionable among a group of knowledgable people, you will be called on it.
> 
> (References?? What is this, a scholarly journal? Please.)
> 
> As I've said more than once, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until the results are in, and I'm sure your suits are worth the prices paid. However, defensive rants like this make it hard.


Given the tone of you responses to those who differ with your opinions, (for example calling me a shill after one of my first posts), I am wondering if you were toilet trained at gunpoint.

Who are you to question claims? And than tell Jeff he has to submit proof! Proof to what, your claims? Why don't you submit evidence that what he is doing is wrong? And I mean real evidence, not "I don't think it is ethical"

I recall quite a while ago, Jeff said he would submit his suits and when I asked whatever happened, you and some of your colleagues got all wound up.

Since you know so much (or claim to), why don't you buy one and have it judged to your high standards.

As to Jeff being all worked up, I would to. I have read and re-read Jeff's remarks. The only things he got worked up on and rightfully so, were when people questioned his honesty and character. People such as you teacher, who have never purchased any of his suits, buy used "holy grail suits" and than impugn peoples characters like Jeff and those who buy his suits.

For the record, I have 4 of the suits Jeff sells, I have an excellent tailor who says the suits are very nice, and I get compliments from my clients.

How's that for a rant????


----------



## JMatt

warfighter said:


> Given the tone of you responses to those who differ with your opinions, (for example calling me a shill after one of my first posts) . . .


Well - you did register on August 12th. You have 9 posts total. All of them are in this thread. All of them espouse attitudes that are at odds with the forum in general....


----------



## A Harris

> What's the difference between the "I got a $2500 (MSRP) for $750" and "I paid $300 for a suit that cost $150 wholesale"


The difference is that a suit that ACTUALLY carried an original retail price of $2500, when sold for $750, is being at sold at (and probably below) manufacturers cost, in materials and labor. On the other hand, a $150 wholesale suit sold for $300 is being purchased at it's appx. retail value. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is represented as such.



> If you buy an Oxxford suit on sale for $750 that had a retail of $2500, and seller is still making money, just think how much more money they made on the suits just like it that they sold at full retail.


This is a common perception. However, it is not based in reality. The Oxxford is being sold for $750 because someone (usually the dept. store) took a large loss on that particular item.



> Don't you use the MSRP in deciding what price you set?


No, I use the prices that actual people have paid for that item in a different size, or items of equal quality from the same maker, in actual stores.


----------



## jazzy1

pt4u67 said:


> I apologize in advance if this post seems a little cynical however I notice that this thread has attracted numerous new members. I wonder if these are really different people or the same person shilling for the vendor in question?
> 
> I take no personal offense to this but I'm just curious. Anyone else notice this?


No shill here, just a guy trying to expand on his knowledge of clothing. I thought that clothes were supposed to be fun.

Some topics are taken so seriously that at times I prefer to simply sit in the wings and watch others fight it out.

As a larger sized man, the thing that caught my eye with this ebay seller was the number of suits size 52r(US) that were under $300. I don't want to spend more than that on a suit that will, in a few months, with my trainers help, be too big.


----------



## Chuck Franke

jazzy1 said:


> the thing that caught my eye with this ebay seller was the number of suits size 52r(US) that were under $300. I don't want to spend more than that on a suit that will, in a few months, with my trainers help, be too big.


I'm not gonna argue with a size 52R... anyone want to?


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## Lino

The Baroni website:

e-mail: [email protected]

Perhaps they can explain the whole retail price and canvassed or not thing.


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## warfighter

Lino said:


> The Baroni website:
> 
> e-mail: [email protected]
> 
> Perhaps they can explain the whole retail price and canvassed or not thing.


So if Baroni explained the retail price and canvass to your satisfaction, would you buy one of their suits or would you depend on the gentlemen on this forum who are going to judge the suit?


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## GMF

Lino said:


> The Baroni website:
> 
> e-mail: [email protected]
> 
> Perhaps they can explain the whole retail price and canvassed or not thing.


And maybe they can explain why there are no suits shown anywhere on their website.


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## EL72

GMF said:


> And maybe they can explain why there are no suits shown anywhere on their website.


For reasons of intellectual property protection. They are very concerned by recent attempts by Kiton and Brioni to copy the Baroni cut and silhouette.


----------



## Lino

warfighter said:


> So if Baroni explained the retail price and canvass to your satisfaction, would you buy one of their suits or would you depend on the gentlemen on this forum who are going to judge the suit?


warfighter, there are a number of issues going on at this point-focusing only on Baroni (which is the one I was interested in as it was originally said to be fully-canvassed, and is still listed as "hand basted-canvas backed"

1) the question of MSRP.
2) the question of actual fairmarket value of the suits.
3) the question of cut.
4) the question of fit.
5) the question of construction method.
6) the question of construction quality.
7) the question of fabric quality.

Google can answer questions 1 and 2. No one on the entire internet sells Baroni suits for $1,195 to $1,495+ much less $2,249 Jeff lists the retial price at on some of the suits. The actual retial price looks to be fairly uniformly set at between $449 to $457. Given that, some of prices seem to be priced below retail (e.g., one priced at $295.95) and some over retail at ($479.95).

Numebr 5 is a big question mark for me. As mentioned above there have been claims the suits are fully-canvassed which have been rescinded, but yet listings are still showing up on email mentioneing "hand basted-canvas backed" and other claims of hand work. I would think the maker of the suit can settle the questions of 5 and perhaps even add some info on the source of fabric-they may even be able to shed further light on questions 1 and 2.

As for questions 3, 4, and 6. I trust the judges.


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## GMF

Mensusa.com is not a reputable business. The BBB page they display on their web site is a fake. If you actually go to the LA BBB page and look them up they have dozens of unresolved complaints against them. The ebay feedback page they show is also a fake. They are not ebay sellers at all. They have merely taken the html feedback page from a legitimate seller and put their name on it and put that up at their web site.


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## Lino

GMF said:


> Mensusa.com is not a reputable business. The BBB page they display on their web site is a fake. If you actually go to the LA BBB page and look them up they have dozens of unresolved complaints against them. The ebay feedback page they show is also a fake. They are not ebasy sellers at all. They have merely taken the html feedback page from a legitimate seller and put their name on it and put that up at their web site.


Nice.

Thanks GMF for poiting this out. I will edit my posts to include this warning.

*** Actually to be double safe, I removed the info on Mensusa.


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## Chuck Franke

*MODERATOR NOTE*

******OFFICIAL MODERATOR NOTE*************

The Wizard of Ahhhs AKA Jeff is *NOT NOT NOT* the same seller as the seller MensUSA and you should in no way equate the two. I'll refrain from further comment and allow either seller to speak for themselves on that matter. It is important that this point be made very clearly as an incorrect impression here could be very damaging.

Second note: Criticism, especially when invited, is absolutely permissable and encouraged. Questioning the retail price, the similarity to famous names and the intrinsic value of the product is fine and objective, fair and reasonable criticism is not censored and that is not the intention of this post.

Third note: You folks are fast, in the time it took me to type that you had it handled. ...AAAC is best moderated when least moderated. Thanks fellas.


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## Lino

Chuck Franke said:


> ******OFFICIAL MODERATOR NOTE*************
> 
> The Wizard of Ahhhs AKA Jeff is *NOT NOT NOT* the same seller as the seller MensUSA and you should in no way equate the two. I'll refrain from further comment and allow either seller to speak for themselves on that matter. It is important that this point be made very clearly as an incorrect impression here could be very damaging.


Just for the record, I deleted my mention of MensUSA myself as a double precaution based on GMF's BBB findings.

Also for the record, I am in no way saying there is any connection between MensUSA or Jeff. (Not saying anyone said I was, but I just wanted to be clear I was not). My mention of MensUSA was only to pointout their price point of a certain maker.


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## GMF

Lino said:


> My mention of MensUSA was only to pointout their price point of a certain maker.


And who's to say you would actually get a Baroni suit if you buy from them. You'll note that nowhere on any of the pages where you actually select a suit to go in the shopping cart does it give a brand.


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## Chuck Franke

Lino said:


> Just for the record, I deleted my mention of MensUSA myself as a double precaution based on GMF's BBB findings..


...You are a gentleman and should not infer a handslap - just wanted to make very very sure that nobody got an incorrect impression.

And again, thanks fellas for being a reasonable and rational group to deal with.

Moderator hat to closet now.


----------



## Lino

GMF said:


> And who's to say you would actually get a Baroni suit if you buy from them. You'll note that no where on any of the pages where you actually select a suit to go in the shopping cart does it give a brand.


Looks like you are correct on that account as well.


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## brugotti

The website you have posted is not the makers of Baroni uomo suits. The name of the company is not Baroni, Baroni is the name that they use for their products.


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## Lino

brugotti said:


> The website you have posted is not the makers of Baroni uomo suits. The name of the company is not Baroni, Baroni is the name that they use for their products.


That sounds like a trademark dispute waiting to happen.

Then who makes Baroni uomo suits?


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## brugotti

Maxman.


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## smr

GMF said:


> All this indicates is that those namebrands have developed a market that will support a price point of $3000+. And while they produce quality garments, the retail price is still market driven and arbitrary. It is only a reflection of the relative quality of the garment in the mind of the consumer.


Since when is a market driven retail price completely arbitrary? Yes, the name brands developed a market that would support a certain price, but that did not happen arbitrarily.


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## GMF

smr said:


> Since when is a market driven retail price completely arbitrary? Yes, the name brands developed a market that would support a certain price, but that did not happen arbitrarily.


The process wasn't arbitrary, but the actual price that is printed on the tag is.


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## Lino

brugotti said:


> Maxman.


Thank you for you frankness.

Wow, they are an US company in Los Angeles.


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## smr

GMF said:


> The process wasn't arbitrary, but the actual price that is printed on the tag is.


In marketing classes, they teach that prices are determined based upon what the market will support. That is not arbitrary, and in the large majority of cases, this is how retail prices are set.

While I am no expert on the laws governing pricing, here's some interesting reading that suggests that the sorts of practices you describe (and that are used on the sellers auctions) could be illegal (not that it would be easy to get the federal government to act on these matters):

https://www.lawpublish.com/ftc-decprice.html


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## Lino

I'm going to try to take a step back from focusing on one brand (Baroni). I'm going to step back from questions of marketing practices. And I'm going to ask one question—a selfish question—do any of the suit in question (Baroni, Enzo, Palasso, Mantoni, etc.) have what I want?

What I want is fairly straight forward:

Something on par in quality and construction with Canali, Zegna, Corneliani mainlines:
- decent fabric in worsted wool Super 100 to Super 120's (anything else is overkill and will not wear as long—yes, I want durability and suit that will last 10+ years).
- the fabric can be cut with lasers (I know Corneliani does it, I suspect Canali and Zegna mainline do too).
- full canvassed (no fusing, no semi-canvas)
- sewing can be mostly on sewing machines (again, I know Corneliani does it, I suspect Canali and Zegna mainline do too).
- handwork should include: the sleeve hole, collar, lapel facing, vents, etc. as on Canali, Zegna, and Corneliani.
- silhouette should also be like a Milanese cut like—you guessed it—Canali, Zegna, and Corneliani.
- Three button, double vent, four pocket inside (pen pockets are a nice touch).
- a proper lapel button
- D-tack on the outside jacket pockets like Zegna and Corneliani (Canali does not have D-tack pockets).
- single pleated pants like—you know—Canali, Zegna, and Corneliani.
- Cupro (rayon) lining.

Do any of Jeff's—or brugotti's, or the other ebay sellers of lesser known brands—suits fit this description, in the say $299 to $850 (lowest and highest prices I've paid for Zegna and Corneliani) range?

If so, then I have some potential customers for you—including myself. If not, then there is no need for me to follow this particular thread any further.


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## GMF

Lino said:


> Do any of Jeff's-or brugotti's, or the other ebay sellers of lesser known brands-suits fit this description ... ?


No. Period.


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## JMatt

smr said:


> In marketing classes, they teach that prices are determined based upon what the market will support. That is not arbitrary, and in the large majority of cases, this is how retail prices are set.
> 
> While I am no expert on the laws governing pricing, here's some interesting reading that suggests that the sorts of practices you describe (and that are used on the sellers auctions) could be illegal (not that it would be easy to get the federal government to act on these matters):
> 
> https://www.lawpublish.com/ftc-decprice.html


Nice research! Everyone should read the first link, then read the ebay listings, then re-think how (honest, innocent, legal, ethical, moral, deceptive, fair.....) the ebay listings really are.


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## A Harris

> As a larger sized man, the thing that caught my eye with this ebay seller was the number of suits size 52r(US) that were under $300. I don't want to spend more than that on a suit that will, in a few months, with my trainers help, be too big.


They look to be decent quality suits at a decent price. Given the limited availability of discount suits in your size, and the fact that you are not looking for a long term investment, I would not rule them out. In fact I bought some Enzo suits for my father once, as he is in the same situation as you - he takes a US size 52 to 54 Long. I've since bought him some higher quality suits, but the Enzo's were serviceable in the meantime.


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## mano

It may help to compare apples to apples here. I'm writing this knowing that for most AAAC members I'm preaching to the choir. Although Jeff knows something about clothing and is an excellent businessman, who knows how to satisfy his customers, he doesn't appear to have the investment or interest in sartorial matters as do the folks who frequent these fora.

1. Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, et. al., (NOT Armani) are exceptionally made hand tailored garments. Brioni and Kiton often don't include "super" designations, but the fabric and construction in this quality of suit has a feel, cut, drape and complexity in color that cannot be matched by lower quality, and less costly suits. People who are interested in and appreciate quality suitings immediately see how outstanding these clothes are. The hours of hand cutting, stitching and use of the highest quality fabrics make them expensive. These suits have that "wow factor" that clothing geeks appreciate, but may be of little interest to the average person.

2. A wide selection of Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, et. al., are regularly sold at full retail at their boutique stores, Neiman Marcus, Bergdorf Goodman, other select men's shops around the country. Substantial discounts of limited selection are available at various outlet stores, ebay and even the sales forum here on AAAC. Claiming one may "buy an Oxxford for $750 at Filenes" is a hit-or-miss proposition. Even though many of us here and at SF have purchased a full wardrobe at 75% off, or better, let's not kid ourselves; we were fortunate to be at the right place at the right time.

3. Jeff's suits are widely available in a variety of sizes, styles and fabrics, much as one would find at a brick and mortar store. Perhaps his etail store has even more stock than a brick and mortar. Baroni suits are available at other stores for betweeen $535 and $595. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but unlike Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, et. al., they are not regularly sold for full retail (around $1,200-1,500)

https://home.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_so...1045684,p_3:$500-$999,p_4:Baroni Suits&page=1

4. Jeff's suits sold through his ebay store are priced $100 or more lower than other stores. He not only offers a bargain in terms of pricing, but he obviously knows how to please his customers by offering excellent service.

5. While I'm waiting for feedback from Andy, Chuck and others regarding their impressions of the Baroni, there is no doubt that comparing them to Oxxford, Brioni, Kiton, et. al. is apples to oranges. The Baroni appears to be an outstanding "bang for the buck" by offering cuts similar to the more expensive suits, selecting the best fabric for the money, using machines that mimic hand stitching and other factors.

6. What I'm really interested in is the comparison between Baroni and Zegna, Armani (say what you will, but I like the fabrics of their sportcoats in the Collezioni line), Brooks Brothers and other suits in the $1200 range.


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## Lino

mano said:


> 6. What I'm really interested in is the comparison between Baroni and Zegna, Armani (say what you will, but I like the fabrics of their sportcoats in the Collezioni line), Brooks Brothers and other suits in the $1200 range.


If GMF's anwers to my question is correct (and I think he is), then you are still comparing mixed fruit.


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## pt4u67

warfighter said:


> Please with your pristine approach to marketing, give some examples of what MSRPs are steeped in reality?
> 
> MSRPs are done to appeal to the psyche of our most primal emotions.......no one ever wants to be taken advantage of or pay in excess of the value. Every company knows this, auto manufacturers, appliance, electronics... "buy product X which normally goes for $895 now on sale for $450".


To suggest MSRP is determined through the ingestion of some secret potion is not in the least bit accurate. Corporations take pains in order to remain competitive with regard to what the market will bear and with their competition. Oxxford MSRP's are betwee 2-3K because that is where their LEGITIMATE competition is at. I think the point everyone is making about the MSRP of the suits in question is that they have never really sold, or so it seems, at that price point. Brioni, Oxxford and Kiton really DO sell at those price points although many in this forum are able to find them for less.

An MSRP arbitarily conceived will not hold much water and will eventually end up a punchline by those who understand the true cost:value ratio.


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## zegnamtl

smr,

Thank you for the link, interesting.
~~~

From one of the links in this thread,
So where is the 150s excatly?????


Baroni Uomo Super 150's Extra Fine Solids 3-Button 

Baroni Uomo's collection of clothing is made with superb fabrics, using the strictest quality standards. This gorgeous suit in their collection is offered in a 3 button, single-breasted design in Reda Super 120's fabric......

Origination: Made in Italy
Composition: Super 120's Virgin Wool....


I guess maybe the 150s was on the suit that was used to make the copy?
And the ad writer mixed up the labels??


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## mano

Lino said:


> If GMF's anwers to my question is correct (and I think he is), then you are still comparing mixed fruit.


Here's where my ignorance shows, as I'm one of those people who buys at a deep discount and doesn't have a handle on actual retail of Zegna or other reputable brands. A quick web search places Zegna's Z line at the same price point of Baroni's claimed retail. Brook Bros. appear to be below $1,000. Both are fused, I believe. Aren't there Corneliani and Canali lines such as Corneliani Trend that are also at the $1200-$1500 price point?


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## Lino

mano said:


> Here's where my ignorance shows, as I'm one of those people who buys at a deep discount and doesn't have a handle on actual retail of Zegna or other reputable brands. A quick web search places Zegna's Z line at the same price point of Baroni's claimed retail. Brook Bros. appear to be below $1,000. Both are fused, I believe. Aren't there Corneliani and Canali lines such as Corneliani Trend that are also at the $1200-$1500 price point?


Gotcha. You are correct.

I agree, I think those may be the correct suits to compare to Jeff's offerings.

I was thinking of Zegna, Canali and Corneliani's mainlines, which are not fused. The Zegna-Z and Corneliani Trend are also considered more fashion forward in cut and fabric selection.


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## brugotti

Gents, Baroni's old line were super 120, all their new lines are super 150.


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## smr

mano said:


> Here's where my ignorance shows, as I'm one of those people who buys at a deep discount and doesn't have a handle on actual retail of Zegna or other reputable brands. A quick web search places Zegna's Z line at the same price point of Baroni's claimed retail. Brook Bros. appear to be below $1,000. Both are fused, I believe. Aren't there Corneliani and Canali lines such as Corneliani Trend that are also at the $1200-$1500 price point?


I was just at Saks, and the Corneliani Collection line, which is fully fused, was retailing for $1000. They give you a nice fabric, and of course you get the Corneliani cut. People really do pay that retail price for that particular offering, so that is different than the sellers stated retail price for his offererings. Finally, if I am not mistaken, the super # alone does not alone indicate the overall quality of the fabric. Some with the same super # could be better than others. BB sells 1/2-canvassed suits for either $598 (or perhaps slightly more now--this is for Brooksease) , or for $798 (with better fabric for the luxury line suits). Both BB offerings are actually sold at those prices, and with BB, in the $1500 range retail, you can get a fully canvassed suit with lots of hand tailoring.


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## smr

JMatt said:


> Nice research! Everyone should read the first link, then read the ebay listings, then re-think how (honest, innocent, legal, ethical, moral, deceptive, fair.....) the ebay listings really are.


Thanks JMatt and Zegnamtl. Took all of 2 minutes to do the "research" using Google. I had remembered hearing similar descriptions of the law when watching consumer pieces on the local news when they were investigating sleezy NYC electronics sellers. In NY, there may be similar state law. (Sorry about the second link, which actually is not for the USA. Just noticed this now after returning home from work. Oh, boy! Time for some rest.)


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## Reptilicus

*Wow*

Usually I fall asleep after about two pages of these super-long posts. This has been more than interesting enough to see through to the end. Some of the posters have really done a remarkable job conducting research and making comparisons. The whole MSRP tangent has been fascinating. AND...everyone has minded their manners and been quite civil. My regards to all posters and moderators.


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## dailywear

*Has anyone received the suit(s)?*

I have been following this thread for two days now. Has anyone received the suit(s) and what is the outcome? is it a good $300 suit or is it a well priced $700-800 suit?


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## mrchapel

Why hasn't our esteemed leader, Andy, posted about this? Has he not received the suits?


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## EL72

I don't mean to rain on your sartorial parade but your expectations of some kind of "suit showdown" between Baroni and Zegna are somewhat unrealistic. The suits are fine $300 suits that you can buy on eBay at a slight discount from a very reliable seller (irrespective of what you may think of his marketing tactics). If you're in the market for that, great. If you want a fully-canvassed Zegna, look elsewhere. 

Let's be fair about we expect Andy to say about the suit. He cannot come out and say the suit is equivalent to a $2,000 full-canvas suit because that would be misleading. He also cannot diss it completely and say it's crap because that's not fair either. The suits are what they are. Fine suits for the price but you're not getting a $1,000 suit for $300, no matter how much you or your wallet would like that. I think it's putting Andy in a difficult position to ask him to provide some sort of judgement on the quality of the suits so let's put this thread to rest.


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## mrchapel

EL72 said:


> Let's be fair about we expect Andy to say about the suit. He cannot come out and say the suit is equivalent to a $2,000 full-canvas suit because that would be misleading. He also cannot diss it completely and say it's crap because that's not fair either. The suits are what they are. Fine suits for the price but you're not getting a $1,000 suit for $300, no matter how much you or your wallet would like that. I think it's putting Andy in a difficult position to ask him to provide some sort of judgement on the quality of the suits so let's put this thread to rest.


Disagree completely. He CAN come out and give his honest opinion on the suit. No one here expects a comparison to a Zegna fully-canvasses suit, but considering he actually has one of the suits or two, however many were sent, he can give us his take on the suit and whether or not it is worth the $300 pricepoint.


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## EL72

mrchapel said:


> Disagree completely. He CAN come out and give his honest opinion on the suit. No one here expects a comparison to a Zegna fully-canvasses suit, but considering he actually has one of the suits or two, however many were sent, he can give us his take on the suit and whether or not it is worth the $300 pricepoint.


Can't you see the problem in the moderator of this website providing that type of subjective opinion? Whether a suit like that is worth $300 is a subjective notion. You are not getting a more expensive suit at 85% off retail. You are likely getting a discount for buying on eBay, as with many goods, so is the suit worth $300? Obviously it is if so many seem to buy them and be happy. Does that mean I would buy one? Probably not but that doesn't mean they are not worth the asking price. You can't buy a Zegna suit either for that price.

Does anyone seriously believe that these suits are somehow being sold at some ridiculous discount? And that there happens to be a seemingly endless supply in all colors and sizes?


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## smr

mrchapel said:


> Disagree completely. He CAN come out and give his honest opinion on the suit. No one here expects a comparison to a Zegna fully-canvasses suit, but considering he actually has one of the suits or two, however many were sent, he can give us his take on the suit and whether or not it is worth the $300 pricepoint.


Even if it is worth the $300 paid (with a small discount from the price these might usually sell for), the real question here is whether you're getting the equivalent of a $2000 suit for $300. That's the standard Jeff, the seller, established. I think EL72's characterization of what we should expect is pretty accurate. And of course, whatever Andy says would be his honest opinion. Wouldn't expect anything less.


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## mrchapel

EL72 said:


> Can't you see the problem in the moderator of this website providing that type of subjective opinion? Whether a suit like that is worth $300 is a subjective notion. You are not getting a more expensive suit at 85% off retail. You are likely getting a discount for buying on eBay, as with many goods, so is the suit worth $300? Obviously it is if so many seem to buy them and be happy. Does that mean I would buy one? Probably not but that doesn't mean they are not worth the asking price. You can't buy a Zegna suit either for that price.
> 
> Does anyone seriously believe that these suits are somehow being sold at some ridiculous discount? And that there happens to be a seemingly endless supply in all colors and sizes?


I see no problem when the moderator, who in fact agreed to participate in said review, provide an opinion. I am merely saying I'd like Andy to comment on the suit and what he thinks of it. No different than any other member here posting a review of their new Chan suit or Jantzen shirt.

Also, you seem to miss my point. I am not asking if it is worth $300 so that I can feel like I received a discount; that is not my concern and I could honestly care less if it was a substantial discount (unless it was a Kiton or a Brioni or an Oxxford). I am asking because that is in my current price range and to serve as a possible resource for friends, etc. looking for a good suit within a decent price range.

Andy's opinion is desired because we have been told by the owner of the eBay store that Andy has in fact been sent some sample suit(s).


----------



## pt4u67

mrchapel said:


> Disagree completely. He CAN come out and give his honest opinion on the suit. No one here expects a comparison to a Zegna fully-canvasses suit, but considering he actually has one of the suits or two, however many were sent, he can give us his take on the suit and whether or not it is worth the $300 pricepoint.


We're talking about a $300 suit. This has to be the most analyzed suit in history. You're basically getting something on par with a dept store HSM, Aboud, etc. I'm afraid much of the enthusiasm and hype regarding these suits has been the apparent "great deal" as the MSRP was arbitraily set at ~$2000. I think this whole comparison thing is a bit ridiculous. If one likes the suit and it fits ones budget then get it. But to expect the deal of the century is a bit naive.


----------



## mrchapel

pt4u67 said:


> We're talking about a $300 suit. This has to be the most analyzed suit in history. You're basically getting something on par with a dept store HSM, Aboud, etc. I'm afraid much of the enthusiasm and hype regarding these suits has been the apparent "great deal" as the MSRP was arbitraily set at ~$2000. I think this whole comparison thing is a bit ridiculous. If one likes the suit and it fits ones budget then get it. But to expect the deal of the century is a bit naive.


Ok, most people do not seem to understand what I am saying. I, nor have I ever, said it was MSRP'd at $2,000.00, despite earlier claims made by the ebay shop owner earlier and in his past auctions. My only concern is getting someone's opinion who has it (Andy) and to report on whether or not it is WORTH spending $300.00 on or if money is better spent elsewhere. *That's it.* I don't care what it is MSRP'd at, I just want to know if the suit is worth $300.00. WHY is that so difficult for the past few posters to understand?


----------



## paper clip

Reptilicus said:


> Usually I fall asleep after about two pages of these super-long posts. This has been more than interesting enough to see through to the end. Some of the posters have really done a remarkable job conducting research and making comparisons. The whole MSRP tangent has been fascinating. AND...everyone has minded their manners and been quite civil. My regards to all posters and moderators.


I concur heartily on all points! I am not a fan of italian suits at all, but this has been a great exercise in debate. Another case study of why fora like AAAC are so useful!


----------



## Laxplayer

Jeff, 

You wouldn't happen to have any 3/2 rolled sack suits now would you? If so, I know some trads that may be interested. :icon_smile: 

I have a co-worker who wears Baroni suits. They seem to be well made, although they are not really my style. I have never really looked at $2000 suits (mine are all J Press, Brooks Brothers and Southwick), but $300 for a good looking suit seems pretty reasonable to me.


----------



## EL72

mrchapel said:


> My only concern is getting someone's opinion who has it (Andy) and to report on whether or not it is WORTH spending $300.00 on or if money is better spent elsewhere. *That's it.* I don't care what it is MSRP'd at, I just want to know if the suit is worth $300.00. WHY is that so difficult for the past few posters to understand?


12,000 people who left positive feedback for Jeff seem to think so. Do you really need one other person's opinion, even if it is Andy's?


----------



## mrchapel

EL72 said:


> 12,000 people who left positive feedback for Jeff seem to think so. Do you really need one other person's opinion, even if it is Andy's?


12,000 people don't have their own forum. Besides, I don't know for sure what those 12,000 people have received, nor do they possess the sartorial knowledge Andy has.


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## vince321

There are a couple of Ebay sites whose owners sell fake Zegna, Armani and other suits. It's interesting that they have excellent feedback, sometimes numbering in the thousands. In my experience, the opinion of an uncaring and uneducated customer is meaningless.

It would seem that having an opinion from Andy would be much more interesting as he is a reliable and trustworthy source of information.


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## EL72

I believe Jeff offered a money-back guarantee to anyone here who ordered a suit. Wouldn't you rather order one and see for yourself, how it fits - on you?


----------



## Chuck Franke

Jeff's gonna send one to me, I asked him to wait until he has one with a flaw or something since we try to ensure that no wearable garments are harmed in our photo studio. I'll line up a few other suits that signed their organ donor cards and see if we can't make an interesting lesson in the way various suits are constructed. 

The points of contention for the most part are about slaes teschniques, MSRP's and what constitutes keyword spamming.

...while that's all quite interesting I figure the question people really wonder about is what these puppies are like compared to makes they are familiar with.

Aside from one knitting circle comment Jeff's been a good sport


----------



## legb4wicket

Chuck Franke said:


> Aside from one knitting circle comment Jeff's been a good sport


Good to hear that Chuck.

Certain people are becoming vicious as of late.


----------



## JeffT

Aw. I was just kidding about my Grandma's knitting circle. No offense was meant but old ladies have been known to gossip and pass judgement from a point of ignorance like what was happening in the beginning of this thread.

Some of you may argue about how you think something I may be doing is unethical or something else is not right and this is your opinion. You all have every right to your opinion but I sleep well at night and have no problems looking at myself in the mirror knowing I am providing an outstanding service while making people very happy. 

Not only have I completed almost 12,000 transactions but approx. 63% return as repeat buyers. 12,000 transactions with 63% to return again and again is impossible to fake and difficult to argue about regardless if you approve on how I am able to do it. :icon_smile_wink: This my friends is the proof in the pudding. 

Jeff


----------



## Dapper Dave

JeffT said:


> Aw. I was just kidding about my Grandma's knitting circle. No offense was meant but old ladies have been known to gossip and pass judgement from a point of ignorance like what was happening in the beginning of this thread.
> 
> Some of you may argue about how you think something I may be doing is unethical or something else is not right and this is your opinion. You all have every right to your opinion but I sleep well at night and have no problems looking at myself in the mirror knowing I am providing an outstanding service while making people very happy.
> 
> Not only have I completed almost 12,000 transactions but approx. 63% return as repeat buyers. 12,000 transactions with 63% to return again and again is impossible to fake and difficult to argue about regardless if you approve on how I am able to do it. :icon_smile_wink: This my friends is the proof in the pudding.
> 
> Jeff


Hi Jeff,

I am one of those here who found AAAC because I googled one of your products. I personally like how you've "put up" and I am anxious to see the results of the trial. I also appreciate that you will back up any purchase with a full refund including shipping costs. That's impressive. No one can say that you don't believe in what you're selling.

Dave


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## pt4u67

JeffT said:


> No offense was meant but old ladies have been known to gossip and pass judgement from a point of ignorance like what was happening in the beginning of this thread.


I for one do not doubt your ethical business practices however when speaking of people approaching this from a point of ignorance I would like to point out that It was you who originally claimed that the Italian made Baroni's were fully canvassed and then retracted that statement so it seems that you were to some degree ignorant of your own product. For many on this forum that is a huge difference. I suppose with your return policy however it really shouldn't matter.


----------



## smr

pt4u67: While I think that Jeff is probably offering a decent suit for the price at which he sells it, I don't think that it is ethical to advertise a "retail" price of $2000+ when that's not the retail price, even if it is just in the nature of a "white lie." As noted, these practices could very well be illegal. If Jeff wants to make the case that his suits are the equivalent in all meaningful ways of suits that sell for $2000+, it probably would be ethical and legal to advertise these suits with a high "comparable" price under better business bureau standards. 
https://www.bbb.org/membership/codeofad.asp#Comparative Price (and as noted above, here: https://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/decptprc.htm)


----------



## JeffT

smr said:


> pt4u67: While I think that Jeff is probably offering a decent suit for the price at which he sells it, I don't think that it is ethical to advertise a "retail" price of $2000+ when that's not the retail price, even if it is just in the nature of a "white lie." As noted, these practices could very well be illegal. If Jeff wants to make the case that his suits are the equivalent in all meaningful ways of suits that sell for $2000+, it probably would be ethical and legal to advertise these suits with a high "comparable" price under better business bureau standards.
> https://www.bbb.org/membership/codeofad.asp#Comparative Price (and as noted above, here: https://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/decptprc.htm)
> 
> I for one do not doubt your ethical business practices however when speaking of people approaching this from a point of ignorance I would like to point out that It was you who originally claimed that the Italian made Baroni's were fully canvassed and then retracted that statement so it seems that you were to some degree ignorant of your own product. For many on this forum that is a huge difference. I suppose with your return policy however it really shouldn't matter.


Excuse me? You are mumbling and when you mumble I can't understand a word you are saying......

~Willy Wonka


----------



## smr

JeffT said:


> Excuse me? You are mumbling and when you mumble I can't understand a word you are saying......
> 
> ~Willy Wonka


Jeff: No mumbling here. Take a look at the FTC and BBB guidelines. Even they consider your retail price to be misleading. You know it is not the price at which the suits are really sold, and yet you still advertise a "retail price" of $2000+ in at least some of your listings. If you advertise a product at a retail price for which the item does not actually sell (at the retail level, of course), that is an intentional misrepresentation. I don't think that this is ethical and it may not even be legal. Pretty straightforward. May amount to a white lie (and I think that it is more than that), but it still is not truthful.


----------



## Artisan Fan

Jeff,

What mills do your makers get their Super 150s wool from?


----------



## JeffT

smr said:


> Jeff: No mumbling here. Take a look at the FTC and BBB guidelines. Even they consider your retail price to be misleading. You know it is not the price at which the suits are really sold, and yet you still advertise a "retail price" of $2000+ in at least some of your listings. If you advertise a product at a retail price for which the item does not actually sell (at the retail level, of course), that is an intentional misrepresentation. I don't think that this is ethical and it may not even be legal. Pretty straightforward. May amount to a white lie, but it still is not truthful.


I think you need to loosen that bow tie up just a little to allow more blood to your brain as your sense of humor is almost non-existent. That Willy Wonka crack was funny as Hell.

Plain and simple my friend many of the suits I sell are of special cuttings thus in a sense making me a partner with the manufacturer and only seller of these suits. This gives me the right to set the MSRP as I see fit.

You may not agree and that is your right. I do not mean to offend you but you are not one of my customers, have never seen one of my suits so quite simply I do not care what you think.

As I stated before you are welcome to your opinion and I can assure you many of us are tired of hearing it again and again so just let it go. Your opinion has been noted and filed. Thank you very much for participating and please drive home safely. :icon_smile:


----------



## rnoldh

*Hey, He's much better than most on Ebay!*



JeffT said:


> I think you need to loosen that bow tie up just a little to allow more blood to your brain as your sense of humor is almost non-existent. That Willy Wonka crack was funny as Hell.
> 
> Plain and simple my friend many of the suits I sell are of special cuttings thus in a sense making me a partner with the manufacturer and only seller of these suits. This gives me the right to set the MSRP as I see fit.
> 
> You may not agree and that is your right. I do not mean to offend you but you are not one of my customers, have never seen one of my suits so quite simply I do not care what you think.
> 
> As I stated before you are welcome to your opinion and I can assure you many of us are tired of hearing it again and again so just let it go. Your opinion has been noted and filed. Thank you very much for participating and please drive home safely. :icon_smile:


I would like to observe that Jeff and his Ebay operation are definitely better than most on Ebay. A 100% Feedback score of over 12,000, and many repeat buyers, shows that he is providing a satisfactory product to his buyers, and they are happy.

As to the MSRP, I think we are getting lost in the minutiae here. Realistically both Jeff and smr have valid points. But does it really matter!

Has anyone ever heard the old canard of "if it's to good to be true, then it probably is"? Well, I think we have a case of that here. When this thread first appeared and Jeff surfaced, a lot of us(myself included), thought that Jeff was saying that he was selling the equivalent of let's say Corneliani and Hickey Freeman suits for $300-350! And by that, I mean the fully canvassed Corneliani's and HF's.

Well, that might have been, too good to be true. And, I'll certainly give Jeff the benefit of the doubt, and believe him about not knowing that the Baroni's are not fully canvassed. But, where does that leave us? He's selling suits for $250 to $400, I believe. Are they worth it. They seem to be a real value with a lot of satisfied buyers. Are they fully canvassed equivalents of Corneliani or the like? No, they are not.

Would I buy one? If I were going to pay retail for a suit, I would. By retail I mean the price that the seller is really selling a product for on a regular basis. By that measure, I would compare Jeff's suits to what I could get with STP, or Yoox or what I could get at Symms, or NM last call, or Filene's for $250-$400. At that price point, I think he provides a good value.

But to get lost in arguments over MSRP and "true retail", or to compare his suits to "true retail $1200 suits" is fruitless. We're not seeing the forest for the trees! If you want a new suit for $250-$400, then he is a viable and probably very good option.

BTW: I haven't read the last few pages of this thread. What about "The Challenge". Has Jeff, Andy, and Chuck got closer to cutting up a few suits. And then perhaps giving us an opinion of Jeff's suits versus some name brand suits.


----------



## smr

rnoldh said:


> I
> Would I buy one? If I were going to pay retail for a suit, I would. By retail I mean the price that the seller is really selling a product for on a regular basis. By that measure, I would compare Jeff's suits to what I could get with STP, or Yoox or what I could get at Symms, or NM last call, or Filene's for $250-$400. At that price point, I think he provides a good value.
> 
> But to get lost in arguments over MSRP and "true retail", or to compare his suits to "true retail $1200 suits" is fruitless. We're not seeing the forest for the trees! If you want a new suit for $250-$400, then he is a viable and probably very good option.


You say would not buy one of Jeff's suits unless your were going to pay retail for a suit. I think that this makes the point about what a retail price means in the context of ebay auctions. Don't you think that at least some of Jeff's customers were very happy with their suits because they got a fantastic bargain? If they knew as much as you, I've got to believe that some number would be unhappy, as they would not have gotten the advertised "bargain." This is not a minor detail. If the suits are such a great value, why not advertise them for what they are instead of exaggerating what they are and listing retail prices of $2200 in some cases?


----------



## Lino

rnoldh said:


> When this thread first appeared and Jeff surfaced, a lot of us(myself included), thought that Jeff was saying that he was selling the equivalent of let's say Corneliani and Hickey Freeman suits for $300-350! And by that, I mean the fully canvassed Corneliani's and HF's.
> 
> ....But, where does that leave us? He's selling suits for $250 to $400, I believe. Are they worth it....Are they fully canvassed equivalents of Corneliani or the like? No, they are not.


Exactly, many of us read the ads and thought the seller was claiming to be selling a suit on par with Corneliani and Hickey Freeman suits for $300-350. If we thought that was the case, don't you think others think the same? And we all seem to know be agreement these are not suits that are on par with Corneliani and Hickey Freeman suits for $300-350, but OK fused suits worth about $300-400.

And that is not cool.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

Check out these fine suits offered by Lucky86

I am not sure what was better, the positive feedback ("al capone would be jealous") or the negative feedback https://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=lucky86&Dirn=Received+by

More buttons=more gooder!


----------



## smr

JeffT said:


> Plain and simple my friend many of the suits I sell are of special cuttings thus in a sense making me a partner with the manufacturer and only seller of these suits. This gives me the right to set the MSRP as I see fit.


Right, so that you can fool bidders into thinking that they received a wonderful deal (or at least that's the impression you've created for "many of us"). Admirable.


----------



## Lino

Bob Loblaw said:


> I am not sure what was better, the positive feedback ("al capone would be jealous") or the negative feedback https://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=lucky86&Dirn=Received+by


Interesting tool. Seems 100% is does not mean zero negatives or complaints.


----------



## rnoldh

*Lucky is 99.9% positive, not 100%!*



Lino said:


> Interesting tool. Seems 100% is does not mean zero negatives or complaints.


The seller Lucky has a 99.9% Feedback rating. This is his positive rating. I guess he has a negative rating of .01%!

But more interesting is that there is obviously a market of happy buyers for his suits. They are 100% Polyester, and priced at about $119.00!

As my Dad once taught me, There's a lid for every pot!!

Here's a $49.99 Polyester suit, that someone will buy!:


----------



## rssmsvc

Does anyone know if there is a way to block a seller from searches ? So if I don't want to keep seeing suits from a vendor is there a "do not call" type option ?


----------



## Dapper Dave

rssmsvc said:


> Does anyone know if there is a way to block a seller from searches?


I was wondering the very same this morning.

It certainly seems that a few on this forum really feel strongly about Jeff's business. To take offense about the MSRP doesn't make much sense to me. Jeff's in business which, the last time I checked, was about making money. His customer base seems very happy. Now, you or I might see the MSRP listed and laugh but, as the saying goes, "caveat emptor". If someone sees a $2,000 MSRP for a suit selling at $249 and doesn't bother (as I did) to at least look into the matter more carefully, purchases the suit, and decides he is happy with his purchase - who are we to say either has acted in poor faith? Especially if the seller is the sole decider of the MSRP? Having gotten my education in such matters fairly early, I guess I really DO err on the side of caveat emptor.

And I thought the Wonka quote was wonderful!

Until next time, "adieu, auf wiedersehen, gezundheit, farewell"!


----------



## Artisan Fan

Dave,

It's unethical behavior to manipulate and misrepresent prices like that. I also wonder about the quality of the Super 150s wool at these lower prices? Any quality fabric of that caliber will cost more than the suit.


----------



## Chuck Franke

Guys...

Jeff's new here and is taking one hell of a beating. He did send Andy a suit and he sent me a couple to take apart - A Firado and a Palasso.

In the first 73 pages I think it was pretty well established that the suits aren't running out the door at Neiman's for $2K.

I THINK (think, not sure as the pages are blurring) that what folks want to know is what they compare to.

I'll take them apart along with some other names you know at the same pricepoint and above and report back.


----------



## dopey

Potential ebay buyers considering purchasing a Baroni suit might not find this thread so easily unless someone notes that the name used by the auction seller of Baroni suits on ebay is style-wizard rather than the Wizard of Ahs.

To save them the trouble of reading the entire thread, I have excerpted some of my favorite quotes from JeffT style-wizard Wizard of Ahs about his Baroni suits :

Here is where he says the MSRP's are really just made up by him:


JeffT said:


> Plain and simple my friend many of the suits I sell are of special cuttings thus in a sense making me a partner with the manufacturer and only seller of these suits. This gives me the right to set the MSRP as I see fit.


Here is where he tells you what he thinks of the MSRP that he makes up:


JeffT said:


> The MSRP is set by the manufacturer hence "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Pricing" but often times it can be set by the store itself. There is no guideline or standard in a free enterprise economy so in all honesty it's bullsh*t in my humble opinion.


Here is where he explains why his Brioni suits are listed as having a Zegna cut even if there is no such thing:


JeffT said:


> I don't like to advertise my marketing secrets on a public forum but when I indicate a suit has a Zegna, Brioni, Kiton cut I am using that term to catch the Ebay search engine legally. As you all well know there is no such nonsense as a Kiton or Brioni cut ; )


I assume that the reason each of his auctions mention that a "Canali style tie" or some other search-engine-catching-name tie is available in another auction is because ebay rules prevent style-wizard from comparing his Baroni suits to more than one brand. Comparing the tie to a known name lets him snag another search term even if the suit he is selling has no connection to the extra search term (or even, as he has already said, to the brand name to which he actually compares his suit).

But he has a high feedback rating.


----------



## Lino

Dapper Dave said:


> Jeff's in business which, the last time I checked, was about making money.


Last time I checked, being in business is not a licence for anything goes.



Dapper Dave said:


> Especially if the seller is the sole decider of the MSRP? Having gotten my education in such matters fairly early, I guess I really DO err on the side of caveat emptor.


Go back and read SMR's posts. It does not matter who has the power to set the MSRP if the item is never really intended to sell for that price-which appears to the case here.


----------



## Lino

JeffT said:


> Plain and simple my friend many of the suits I sell are of special cuttings thus in a sense making me a partner with the manufacturer and only seller of these suits. This gives me the right to set the MSRP as I see fit.


You mean your Palasso suits are different than the ones from this other Platinum PowerSeller who seems to also be another "#1 Seller of Men's High Quality Suits and Ties for the lowerst price on Ebay"?

They look identical to me.


----------



## GMF

Lino said:


> You mean your Palasso suits are different than the ones from this other Platinum PowerSeller who seems to also be another "#1 Seller of Men's High Quality Suits and Ties for the lowerst price on Ebay"?
> 
> They look identical to me.


He didn't say that. He said "many of the suits" he sells have a unique cut. He didn't mention any particuar brand.

Some people never seem to recognize when they have a winning argument and have to screw it up with a strawman.


----------



## Lino

GMF said:


> Some people never seem to recognize when they have a winning argument and have to screw it up with a strawman.


That's why we pay you lawyer types the big bucks ;-)


----------



## Dapper Dave

Lino said:


> Last time I checked, being in business is not a licence for anything goes. Go back and read SMR's posts.


Once again, I am not a customer nor a friend of Jeff's, but his business is thriving, and his customers appear very satisfied. His return customer percent, as I recall, was somewhere in the 60+% range. That's pretty outstanding. I submit that his business is nothing of the "anything goes" variety.

It seems as though you are taking some personal offense, and I simply do not understand _why_, that's all. I have read every post in this thread and feel like I understand the issue quite well. We have a supply-and-demand economy, and Jeff's business is thriving. If the perceived value wasn't there on behalf of his many BUYERS then he wouldn't have managed to build it. His sustaining the business is evidence of his customer's satisfaction ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. If you were to poll his customers they would in all likelihood NOT say they felt his business practices were "anything goes" but, rather, "I feel I got very good value for my money". You apparently would apply a more conservative advertising standard were you the seller, and for that I applaud your sense of fairness (if not capitalism).

And now, with that horse fully pulverized, I'll say no more on the issue, and bid all of you a fine day. :icon_smile:


----------



## JeffT

Geeez Louise! Ain't this dead horse been beaten enough? I would hope you all have a lot of better things to do with your time and sit here and trash me about the same thing over and over again. I am almost embarrassed for you.

Instead of attacking me for honestly setting an MSRP of $1500 for a proprietary suit that one might think compares to a $700-$800 suit that I sell for around $300&#8230; shouldn't you be more outraged, or at least equally outraged, by the suits that are comparable to this one but are sold for three times as much?

Some of the suits that I get are so rare they only have enough fabric to make 10-15 suits so what store is setting the MSRP of a suit made with a Vitale Barberis Canonico super 140' with a full floating canvas front when there are only 10 of them? What would you all do?

Sometimes but not always I have check the suit over closely and ask myself " What would I see this suit selling for full price at let's say... Bernini or another boutique on Rodeo Drive?" Many of the suits I sell you will never see in a department store so we have a boutique label suit and I am the only boutique selling them. There is nothing unethical or dishonest about it.

For the guys with $150 -$450 to spend on a new suit I am providing an unbelievable value with "Old school" service that is all but forgotten by most retailers now-a-days. Everyone I sell to is happy so I have a hard time understanding the animosity coming from a few people on this board that have never seen the suit but still feel righteous enough to pass judgement. Sounds a bit ignorant from where I am sitting because if my customers are not complaining then why are you?

You are all welcome to continue to "Jeff Bash" but I am done with this thread so for all of you anal rentative posters please understand those questions mentioned above are rhetorical and do not require answers.


----------



## JeffT

One last thing. I said "Special cutting" This means Palasso made a particular suit or suits just for me. I picked the fabric, the construction details like dual vents, ventless, two button three button, pleats or no pleats and those lines are made only for me.


----------



## JeffT

Lino said:


> You mean your Palasso suits are different than the ones from this other Platinum PowerSeller who seems to also be another "#1 Seller of Men's High Quality Suits and Ties for the lowerst price on Ebay"?
> 
> They look identical to me.


Yeah, Yeah.. He's #1 with feedback that is 1/7th of mine and is only Platinum level which indicates a minimum sales volume of only $25K a month.

I am Titanium level. One of only a few in the world and the only one in men's clothing with a consistant minumim sales volume of $150K a month to reach that level. I am not bragging as powerseller levels are public knowledge. Just look at his illiterate copycat auctions selling seconds and irregulars claiming to be #1 on Ebay. Sheesh..... Enough said. Nighty, night Ya'll.


----------



## JeffT

JeffT said:


> You are all welcome to continue to "Jeff Bash" but I am done with this thread so for all of you anal rentative posters please understand those questions mentioned above are rhetorical and do not require answers.


Excuse me. That should have read "If you are and anal rententive poster please understand those questions mentioned above are rhetorical and do not require answers."


----------



## JMatt

I don't see any bashing. I don't know anything about any of your suits.

I just want to see an independent person dissect a Baroni and a Canali or Zegna, and tell me about the differences and show me pictures of the differences.

With sales of $150,000 per month, you'd think you could afford to step up to the plate and let the comparison happen. People here are very detail oriented, but also very astute bargain shoppers who are very value oriented. I'm sure you could invest $500 or so in the evaluation process and sell hundreds of additional suits through this forum and SF.

Why the resistance?


----------



## Dapper Dave

JMatt said:


> I'm sure you could invest $500 or so in the evaluation process and sell hundreds of additional suits through this forum and SF.
> 
> Why the resistance?


JMATT,

He HAS donated a suit for this purpose. Had you read the whole thread you would have known this. The results are pending.

Now where is that "beating a dead horse" smilie again?

Admins, can posts be frozen and stickied? At least until the results are in?


----------



## Artisan Fan

> For the guys with $150 -$450 to spend on a new suit I am providing an unbelievable value with "Old school" service that is all but forgotten by most retailers now-a-days.


I certainly applaud you for that Jeff...just don't be misleading by quoting higher prices that are not a basis for fair comparison.

You still have not answered my question on the Super 150s wool. How do you buy that fabric in quality and afford to keep costs low enough to sell at your price point? It seems to me that raw material costs of Super 150s would require a higher price.


----------



## JeffT

Artisan Fan said:


> I certainly applaud you for that Jeff...just don't be misleading by quoting higher prices that are not a basis for fair comparison.
> 
> You still have not answered my question on the Super 150s wool. How do you buy that fabric in quality and afford to keep costs low enough to sell at your price point? It seems to me that raw material costs of Super 150s would require a higher price.


Hi Olga,

Thank you for your response. I am sorry for the confusion but I am not the manufacturer and do not buy fabric. I am a retailer and buy the finished product. Many of the suits I sell are made with remnant or closeout cloth and I am sorry I do not know the mills from which they came unless there is tag sewn in the suit indicating the mill which is rare.
I have had suits come through my store with Vitale Barberis, Loro Piana and one reciently Tressolina (sp*).


----------



## Artisan Fan

So you are just buying finished product then from wholesalers and don't do the fabric selection?

Are the suits made in Italy?

My name is Lee by the way, I'm just quoting Olga.


----------



## GMF

I think he said some of his suits are made in Italy. Some are made in China.

I have one of his Firado suits, which is a Palasso made in China. Palasso suits are made in Italy and cost more.


----------



## Lino

JeffT said:


> Some of the suits that I get are so rare they only have enough fabric to make 10-15 suits so what store is setting the MSRP of a suit made with a Vitale Barberis Canonico super 140' with a full floating canvas front when there are only 10 of them? What would you all do?


The above described suit for $300-400? What would I do? Most likely buy it. Can you provide links to those suits?

But, I'm confused, I thought you said it turned out none of your suits are fully-canvassed. Which are?



JeffT said:


> Many of the suits I sell you will never see in a department store so we have a boutique label suit and I am the only boutique selling them.


Just curious, which labels?


----------



## Lino

JeffT said:


> One last thing. I said "Special cutting" This means Palasso made a particular suit or suits just for me. I picked the fabric, the construction details like dual vents, ventless, two button three button, pleats or no pleats and those lines are made only for me.


Can you post links to these special cut, special fabric suits? I'm open to having my mind changed, but when I do a search I see the same Palasso suits with same fabric and details carried other sellers as well.

Like I said, I am open to having my mond changed, so just show us some links and you may have a convert.


----------



## GMF

Lino said:


> Just curious, which labels?


Wouldn't it be all of his labels? I've never seen the following in any retail mens store or dept store:

Baroni
Enzo
Mantoni
Palasso
Rizzoli
Firado
Giorgio Fiorelli


----------



## Lino

JeffT said:


> Yeah, Yeah.. He's #1 with feedback that is 1/7th of mine and is only Platinum level which indicates a minimum sales volume of only $25K a month.
> 
> I am Titanium level. One of only a few in the world and the only one in men's clothing with a consistant minumim sales volume of $150K a month to reach that level. I am not bragging as powerseller levels are public knowledge. Just look at his illiterate copycat auctions selling seconds and irregulars claiming to be #1 on Ebay. Sheesh..... Enough said. Nighty, night Ya'll.


Hmmm...someone should rethink those levels, Platinum is worth much more than Titanium. ;-)

I did look at his ads, he seems to be selling the same product as you are. Here are two auctions of what look to be the same suit, can you illustrate the difference please (besides the size)?

PALASSO ITALIAN BLACK TONE STRIPE:

Vs.

And/or

PALASSO SUIT REGAL BLACK W/ TAN STRIPE:

Vs.


----------



## Lino

JeffT said:


> One last thing. I said "Special cutting" This means Palasso made a particular suit or suits just for me. *I picked the fabric,* the construction details like dual vents, ventless, two button three button, pleats or no pleats and those lines are made only for me.





JeffT said:


> ...I am sorry for the confusion but I am not the manufacturer and *do not buy fabric. I am a retailer and buy the finished product.* Many of the suits I sell are made with remnant or closeout cloth and I am sorry I do not know the mills from which they came unless there is tag sewn in the suit indicating the mill which is rare....


Huh? These two posts contradict eachother.


----------



## Lino

GMF said:


> Wouldn't it be all of his labels? I've never seen the following in any retail mens store or dept store:
> 
> Baroni
> Enzo
> Mantoni
> Palasso
> Rizzoli
> Firado
> Giorgio Fiorelli


Retail, I beleive if you search there have been reports of some of these in retail shops. There a gent on this thread who also carries Baroni and I think he has a physical store. There another ebay seller who also sells Palasso and some of the others.

So, which ones are exclusive to Jeff?


----------



## JMatt

Dapper Dave said:


> JMATT,
> 
> He HAS donated a suit for this purpose. Had you read the whole thread you would have known this. The results are pending.


Hey Dapper - I HAVE read the entire thread. SUPPOSEDLY Jeff gave a suit to be compared, but I don't recall seeing this confirmed, and I don't think Andy ever commented. I'm suggesting Jeff buy a used Zegna or Canali for the comparison. If I were Jeff, and my product were this good, I'd be in an all-fire hurry to prove the comparison.

Let's go already. I may buy a Baroni. Show me first.

Many here have their minds made up: Baroni, etc is crap
Others have their minds made up: Baroni is a great value

I have no clue. I want the impartial review. What is the hold-up?


----------



## GMF

Lino said:


> Huh? These two posts contradict eachother.


Picking the fabric that the suit maker has there to select from is not the same thing as buying the fabric from the fabric supplier, giving it to the suit maker, and saying make me x number of suits of this fabric.


----------



## GMF

JMatt said:


> Hey Dapper - I HAVE read the entire thread. SUPPOSEDLY Jeff gave a suit to be compared, but I don't recall seeing this confirmed, and I don't think Andy ever commented. I'm suggesting Jeff buy a used Zegna or Canali for the comparison. If I were Jeff, and my product were this good, I'd be in an all-fire hurry to prove the comparison.


I guess you missed this post, huh?


----------



## Lino

GMF said:


> Picking the fabric that the suit maker has there to select from is not the same thing as buying the fabric from the fabric supplier, giving it to the suit maker, and saying make me x number of suits of this fabric.


One post says he selects the fabric and the other clearly states he does not and only receives the final product. I see a contradictio, and the only person who can explain this is Jeff.


----------



## JMatt

GMF said:


> I guess you missed this post, huh?


Yes - I did.


----------



## JeffT

My last post in this thread so don't ask me any more questions as I will not be back to read them. I don't need to sell a suit this badly to explain every detail of suit selling to you guys. 

With SOME suits I go to the manufacturer and pick the fabric from swatch books. The manufacturer buys the fabric, makes the suits and then sells the suits to me. Sheesh......


----------



## GMF

JeffT said:


> My last post in this thread so don't ask me any more questions as I will not be back to read them. I don't need to sell a suit this badly to explain every detail of suit selling to you guys.
> 
> With SOME suits I go to the manufacturer and pick the fabric from swatch books. The manufacturer buys the fabric, makes the suits and then sells the suits to me. Sheesh......


I would have told some of these guys to put their lips where the sun don't shine a long time ago.


----------



## Artisan Fan

> With SOME suits I go to the manufacturer and pick the fabric from swatch books. The manufacturer buys the fabric, makes the suits and then sells the suits to me. Sheesh.....


Thanks Jeff. I'm guessing we are not talking Holland & Sherry 150s here.


----------



## JMatt

GMF said:


> I would have told some of these guys to put their lips where the sun don't shine a long time ago.


That attitude doesn't really fit within the tenets of a gentlemanly forum now, does it? 

Being a good lawyer means knowing how to stay within the range of rational argument. Surely your litigation skills could poke holes in JeffT's online deposition, couldn't they?


----------



## GMF

JMatt said:


> That attitude doesn't really fit within the tenets of a gentlemanly forum now, does it?


Are you serious? The pompous attitude evinced by many in this thread who take issue with Jeff and his wares (without ever having seen them, mind you), is anything but "gentlemanly," IMO.



JMatt said:


> Being a good lawyer means knowing how to stay within the range of rational argument. Surely your litigation skills could poke holes in JeffT's online deposition, couldn't they?


Without question. But a good lawyer can argue both sides. A really great lawyer can argue the other side better than the other side's lawyer can. :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## JMatt

GMF said:


> A really great lawyer can argue the other side better than the other side's lawyer can. :icon_smile_wink:


Well - convince me that JeffT is a scammer with artificially high MSRP's, who doesn't even really know what his product is.


----------



## GMF

JMatt said:


> Well - convince me that JeffT is a scammer with artificially high MSRP's, who doesn't even really know what his product is.


Your position assumes facts not in evidence.


----------



## Rolo

FWIW, the way these items are offered on eBay could run afoul of the FTC's Guides Against Deceptive Pricing, specifically Section 233.2 "Retail Price Comparisons; Comparable Value Comparisons. Consider the example in Section 233.2(b),

"The following example, however, illustrates a misleading use of this advertising technique. Retailer Doe advertises Brand X pens as having a ``Retail Value $15.00, My Price $7.50,'' when the fact is that only a few small suburban outlets in the area charge $15. All of the larger outlets located in and around the main shopping areas charge $7.50, or slightly more or less. The advertisement here would be deceptive, since the price charged by the small suburban outlets would have no real significance to Doe's customers, to whom the advertisement of ``Retail Value $15.00'' would suggest a prevailing, and not merely an isolated and unrepresentative, price in the area in which they shop."

In fairness, the listings do not indicate that prices shown are "Retail Value". They're actually silent on the issue and simply state a price.

The argument that was raised early on in this thread is that the price reflects a comparable value. This is a legitimate pricing practice, but it must be clear to the consumer that this is a comparable value comparison and not a comparison to a retail value or former retail price. As the Guide states in Section 233.2(c), "Such advertising can serve a useful and legitimate purpose when it is made clear to the consumer that a comparison is being made with other merchandise and the other merchandise is, in fact, of essentially similar quality and obtainable in the area."


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## smr

Rolo: Just looked at one suit posted by Jeff, and it does say "retail" in the listing's body:

As mentioned in a prior thread concerning retail prices for some of the brands mentioned here (may or may not be accurate, but brugotti does seem knowledgable on these brands (has a nice men's clothing web site), and he has posted in the current thread, too):

"brugotti 
Starting Member Join Date: September 14th, 2005
Location: Silverdale, Washington
Posts: 48

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iam familiar with all these brands and for the most part everyone is correct with the exception of Baroni Uomo. Most of these are low end wools that retail for about $199.99, Baroni has two lines one which is made in italy and the other made in china. The made in italy suits are super 150 wool and retail for about $450.00 and the china suits are super 120 and some super 150 that normaly retail for about $350.00. Mantoni and the others are not bad suits for what you pay for them. Just dont exspect full canvas and hand stiching and you will be allright. " https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=52993&highlight=ebay+brans


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## GMF

smr said:


> Just looked at one suit posted by Jeff, and it does say "retail":


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## mrchapel

Rolo said:


> FWIW, the way these items are offered on eBay could run afoul of the FTC's Guides Against Deceptive Pricing, specifically Section 233.2 "Retail Price Comparisons; Comparable Value Comparisons. Consider the example in Section 233.2(b),
> 
> "The following example, however, illustrates a misleading use of this advertising technique. Retailer Doe advertises Brand X pens as having a ``Retail Value $15.00, My Price $7.50,'' when the fact is that only a few small suburban outlets in the area charge $15. All of the larger outlets located in and around the main shopping areas charge $7.50, or slightly more or less. The advertisement here would be deceptive, since the price charged by the small suburban outlets would have no real significance to Doe's customers,  to whom the advertisement of ``Retail Value $15.00'' would suggest a prevailing, and not merely an isolated and unrepresentative, price in the area in which they shop."
> 
> In fairness, the listings do not indicate that prices shown are "Retail Value". They're actually silent on the issue and simply state a price.
> 
> The argument that was raised early on in this thread is that the price reflects a comparable value. This is a legitimate pricing practice, but it must be clear to the consumer that this is a comparable value comparison and not a comparison to a retail value or former retail price. As the Guide states in Section 233.2(c), "Such advertising can serve a useful and legitimate purpose when it is made clear to the consumer that a comparison is being made with other merchandise and the other merchandise is, in fact, of essentially similar quality and obtainable in the area."


I could be wrong, but since eBay transactions are considered private transactions, they would therefore be exempt from FTC regulation. I believe there is something to this effect in the EUA for eBay.

Similar to how you post something on craigslist, get offers, choose the best offer, and arrange collection of payment and transfer of said item.


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## pt4u67

mrchapel said:


> I could be wrong, but since eBay transactions are considered private transactions, they would therefore be exempt from FTC regulation. I believe there is something to this effect in the EUA for eBay.
> 
> Similar to how you post something on craigslist, get offers, choose the best offer, and arrange collection of payment and transfer of said item.


To go totally old school I wonder if this is the high tech equivalent to advertising something in the nifty nickel?


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## Lino

smr said:


> Rolo: Just looked at one suit posted by Jeff, and it does say "retail" in the listing's body


But just saying "retail" is not the same as saying "retail value". "Retail" can mean MSRP or the price that the item sells for at retail. It is too vague.


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## Lino

JeffT said:


> With SOME suits I go to the manufacturer and pick the fabric from swatch books. The manufacturer buys the fabric, makes the suits and then sells the suits to me. Sheesh......


And is it too much to ask for examples of these suits by way of links to the auctions?


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## smr

mrchapel said:


> I could be wrong, but since eBay transactions are considered private transactions, they would therefore be exempt from FTC regulation. I believe there is something to this effect in the EUA for eBay.
> 
> Similar to how you post something on craigslist, get offers, choose the best offer, and arrange collection of payment and transfer of said item.


Seems unlikely, but if you could post, that would be interesting.

Edit: Did find this:

"For Buyers and Sellers...

Where to Turn for Help
If you have problems during a transaction, try to work them out directly with the seller, buyer, or site operator. If that doesn't work, file a complaint with:

the attorney general's office in your state.

your county or state consumer protection agency. Check the blue pages of the phone book under county and state government.

the Better Business Bureau.

the Federal Trade Commission. File a complaint online at ftc.gov.

The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit www.ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters Internet, telemarketing, identity theft, and other fraud-related complaints into Consumer Sentinel, a secure, online database available to hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad."

Found at , which deals with internet auctions. The may be more there that applies here, but I just don't have time to look right now.

As to MSRP vs. Retail Value, the FTC indicates that neither should be used if substantial sales (or something like that) are not being made at the stated price. (Section 233.3, I think).


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## brugotti

smr, thank you for the kind words about my website, glad you like it.


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## Rolo

Lino said:


> But just saying "retail" is not the same as saying "retail value". "Retail" can mean MSRP or the price that the item sells for at retail. It is too vague.


MSRP is address in Section 233.3. Subsection (d) reads, "But this does not mean that all list prices are fictitious and all offers of reductions from list, therefore, deceptive. Typically, a list price is a price at which articles are sold, if not everywhere, then at least in the principal retail outlets which do not conduct their business on a discount basis. It will not be deemed fictitious if it is the price at which substantial (that is, not isolated or insignificant) sales are made in the advertiser's trade area (the area in which he does business). Conversely, if the list price is significantly in excess of the highest price at which substantial sales in the trade area are made, there is a clear and serious danger of the consumer being misled by an advertised reduction from this price."


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## Rolo

mrchapel said:


> I could be wrong, but since eBay transactions are considered private transactions, they would therefore be exempt from FTC regulation. I believe there is something to this effect in the EUA for eBay.


Note that the guidelines identify what the FTC defines to be deceptive practices. The fundamental character of the act is not altered by whether or not the FTC has enforcement powers over the act.


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## Dapper Dave

*This would all be laughable if it weren't so appallingly distasteful.*

I swear - this is a rope and a tree shy of a lynching! You guys are _so_ offended that you are now posting information regarding the Attorney General's Office, the FCC, the Better Business Bureau, and the Federal Trade Commission? Give me a break! How hostile must this board be to someone who has donated one of his suits in an effort to satisfy those who - _having never even owned or seen his product_ - have seen fit to rip him to shreds?

Where is the dignity in this? There is _nothing_ gentlemanly here, and I am appalled at what I've witnessed here lately. One recent post even insisted that Jeff not only supply a suit of his own, _but buy and donate a nice Zegna for comparison's sake as well_!

Honestly, people, what gives you the right? How presumptuous! This is appallingly poor behavior! I guess good taste in clothes and good manners don't necessarily go hand in hand. Gentlemen, this is truly disappointing.

For shame!


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## wheredidyougetthathat

Post # 318, for one, contains information that is well worth having, not only in this particular case. Thanks for posting that!

On the other hand - could the posters who've been waffling over making the actual physical comparison *JUST DO IT* and stop raising objecton after objection to the minutiae of how it might be done? I know it's super difficult to get from one part of LA to another, but come freaking on.


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## Dapper Dave

wheredidyougetthathat said:


> Post # 318, for one, contains information that is well worth having, not only in this particular case. Thanks for posting that!
> 
> On the other hand - could the posters who've been waffling over making the actual physical comparison *JUST DO IT* and stop raising objecton after objection to the minutiae of how it might be done? I know it's super difficult to get from one part of LA to another, but come freaking on.


Yes, to satisfy your morbid curiosity, Andy (of "Ask Andy About Clothes" - this forum) should immediately stop everything else that is going on in his life and conduct the actual physical comparison!

Andy, _how dare you_ not do this promptly! _There is a lynching to conduct!_ The Wizard must be hung by the neck until dead! Do you not understand that you are accountable to every person here for their every whim?

(eyes rolling in disbelief at what some people expect)


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## Reptilicus

Dapper Dave said:


> Where is the dignity in this? There is _nothing_ gentlemanly here, and I am appalled at what I've witnessed here lately.QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, let's get back to the business of bashing black suits and blue jeans.


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## Dapper Dave

Reptilicus said:


> Dapper Dave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the dignity in this? There is _nothing_ gentlemanly here, and I am appalled at what I've witnessed here lately.QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, let's get back to the business of bashing black suits and blue jeans.
> 
> 
> 
> Very little would be worse than this.
Click to expand...


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## Tomasso

Dapper Dave said:


> I swear - this is a rope and a tree shy of a lynching! You guys are _so_ offended that you are now posting information regarding the Attorney General's Office, the FCC, the Better Business Bureau, and the Federal Trade Commission? Give me a break! How hostile must this board be to someone who has donated one of his suits in an effort to satisfy those who - _having never even owned or seen his product_ - have seen fit to rip him to shreds?
> 
> Where is the dignity in this? There is _nothing_ gentlemanly here, and I am appalled at what I've witnessed here lately. One recent post even insisted that Jeff not only supply a suit of his own, _but buy and donate a nice Zegna for comparison's sake as well_!
> 
> Honestly, people, what gives you the right? How presumptuous! This is appallingly poor behavior! I guess good taste in clothes and good manners don't necessarily go hand in hand. Gentlemen, this is truly disappointing.
> 
> For shame!


Press


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## wheredidyougetthathat

Dapper Dave said:


> Yes, to satisfy your morbid curiosity, Andy (of "Ask Andy About Clothes" - this forum) should immediately stop everything else that is going on in his life and conduct the actual physical comparison!
> 
> Andy, _how dare you_ not do this promptly! _There is a lynching to conduct!_ The Wizard must be hung by the neck until dead! Do you not understand that you are accountable to every person here for their every whim?
> 
> (eyes rolling in disbelief at what some people expect)


I seem to have missed the part where I suggested a lynching be held.

There have been (too) many posts about how certain people are available and prepared to simply compare the suits in question. The seller in question has posted that he is quite willing to do this. If you're tired of this thread it would be appropriate to push for that comparison to take place so that this argument can finally be brought to a resolution.


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## malinda

> But a good lawyer can argue both sides. A really great lawyer can argue the other side better than the other side's lawyer can.


I have read all of your motions. This thread is dismissed, with prejudice and disgust.

*Cite: Dapper Dave, AAAC, 9/10/2006, pg. 13:*

"_Where is the dignity in this? There is nothing gentlemanly here, and I am appalled at what I've witnessed here lately." _


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