# New Anderson & Sheppard DB Suit: Advice Solicited



## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm about to order a new Anderson & Sheppard DB suit. More than likely it will be made of flannel in a dark navy with a "chalky" windowpane. 

As I can get into a rut when it comes to details ... I can't think of a better group from which to solicit opinions than you fellows on AskAndy. 

So ... should it be worsted or woolen flannel ... what weight ... what type of pockets ... double vents or no vent ... what about trouser front, bottom & back ... etc. 

For reference I live in the Bay Area ... where temperatures are cool most of the year. 

Your expressed thoughts will be most appreciated.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

16 oz worsted flannel...flap pockets...side vents. Enjoy.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

My experience with SF weather is that a 16 oz would be too heavy.

SF has amazingly moderate weather with a high in the mid 60's most of the year.

It does have the advantage of allowing one suit to be worn all year round. But I would expect that would be more in the 12 oz range. 

Perry


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

FWIW, I would go with a worsted flannel in a "super" fabric--I'm thinking of some BB GF DB suits I have in a Loro Piana Super 130s. 9 to 11 oz. weight.

I like flapped pockets and I like a ticket pocket, animadversions from some regarding its ahistorical nature on a DB jacket notwithstanding.

Four-button working sleeve cuffs.

Double vents.

Stem loop under buttonhole on wearer's lefthand lapel.

Trousers fishbacked if you can get 'em that way, w/ side tab buckle adjusters, no belt loops, and single forward pleats. 1.75" cuffs on trousers. All brace buttons on the inside of the waistband. Quarter-cut front pockets and two back pockets, one button-through.


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## sheik (Apr 24, 2005)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Stem loop under buttonhole on wearer's lefthand lapel.


You don't have to ask for this feature, do you? I thought this was standard on the Row!

Btw Scott, I'm very excited for you! Any way you slice it, this is going to be a gorgeous result. For the trousers, here are my two cents:

-Double forward pleats.
-Uniformly slimmer cut but with very minor tapering (this will make your legs look the longest).
-1 3/4 inch turn-ups at the bottom.
-No belt loops.
-No high back/fish tail back.
-Buttons for braces.

As for the coat, two vents in the back (some people insist on unvented for DB - I don't like this look unless it's a dinner jacket), four buttons on each cuff, straight flap pockets (no hacking), ticket pocket.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Scott said:


> I'm about to order a new Anderson & Sheppard DB suit. More than likely it will be made of flannel in a dark navy with a "chalky" windowpane.
> 
> As I can get into a rut when it comes to details ... I can't think of a better group from which to solicit opinions than you fellows on AskAndy.
> 
> ...


A lovely sounding suit. I recently browsed some of the flannel fabric books, though was looking for a solid midnight navy SB rather than a windowpane DB. If you search by my username and "flannel suit", you'll probably come across that thread - a number of people commented on the different merchants/mills' books and it was generally very good advice.

I think for your climate, I would go for anything from 10-12oz. Given the existing breadth of your wardrobe and the desire for a chalky windowpane, I'd say a true woolen flannel rather than a worsted flannel would be the best choice. As for the detailing, consider no vents and forward pleats for a slightly more dressy look.

Regardless, enjoy commissioning the new suit!


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

My standard issue suit from A&S has pleats, cuffs, and a high back on the trousers. Horizontal flaps, no ticket pocket, double vents. I'd be happy to consider no vents for a dressier suit, as I have on my dinner jacket.

For flannels, the only one they've done for me is an 11oz Smiths, which I like very much. Just the right weight, and drapes really well. 

Alternate choices for my next round might be another, lighter grey from Smiths, one of the 12/13oz Minnis, or one of Anderson's own specials which tend to be pretty good. There's always the London Lounge triple check, of course.

If you do go to a heavier flannel, first make sure that it isn't too thick to press and drape well. I find that the 13/14 oz Minnis are a little more than I'd want in a suit. Also, consider lining on the trousers to preserve the crease a little longer and make it less scratchy on warmer days.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

pkincy said:


> My experience with SF weather is that a 16 oz would be too heavy.
> 
> SF has amazingly moderate weather with a high in the mid 60's most of the year.
> 
> ...


But 16 oz _looks_ so good!


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Personally, I would go worsted flannel rather than woollen flannel, as it's harder wearing, unless you only plan to wear the suit 8 times in a year...?
And definitely side vents.


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## jklu (May 22, 2005)

Ideally, for cloth, I would want a woolen flannel at around 12 to 13 ozs. With the A&S light construction, it should be comfortable in the SF climate. However, I can't recall many windowpanes that fit that description. H&S will have some in 11oz, as will the Harrisons and Lesser 11/12oz worsteds flannels and probably Smiths 11oz. Those weights tailor fine, I just think the 13oz has an added "oomph" and enough extra warmth to make a difference on cold days and not enough to make a difference on warmer days. Those days, a DB flannel suit of any sort will not be on your mind in the morning.

As for details, you should get what you usually do. Personally I would do double vents, flapped pockets - possibly a ticket, forward pleats, no turnups, brace-tops.


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## gefinzi (Sep 23, 2005)

Just make sure the windowpane is bold! No wimpy thin subtle patterns!


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

sheik said:


> You don't have to ask for this feature, do you? I thought this was standard on the Row!
> 
> Btw Scott, I'm very excited for you! Any way you slice it, this is going to be a gorgeous result. For the trousers, here are my two cents:
> 
> ...


I agree about the straight-across jacket pockets, but I would think that's "default" on DB jacket, no? I've never seen a DB w/ slanting pockets; I think it would be a monstrosity (and I am a big fan of slanting pockets on SB coats).


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Before we get ahead of ourselves, does anyone know of a 16 ounce worsted flannel book? I don't.

Scott, you don't have many options that I am aware of. There is an 11 ounce woolen flannel in the H&S Victory book, and an 11/12 worsted flannel from Lesser. I have a suit made from the former (different pattern) and while I like the color and design, the cloth lacks guts by comparison with its peers. It wears fine, mostly, but does not drape as I wish it would and the trousers lose their crease almost instantly. Anyway, I know that book has a navy windowpane.

As does the Lesser worsted flannel. I think the Lesser is superior cloth. The only reason to go with H&S for this one is if you insist on woolen flannel. I also like the fact that the pattern of the Lesser is a larger scale. I was getting the Lesser navy window myself from a tailor who seems to have disappeared. I will reorder the cloth next year and make it in NY.

The Minnis and Harrisons flannel books don't have a navy window (the Minnis has no windowpanes at all). I can't be certain that Smith doesn't have one, but I can't recall seeing it.


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## jklu (May 22, 2005)

Harrisons 39022. The windowpane is a faint light blue.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

jklu said:


> Harrisons 39022. The windowpane is a faint light blue.


I think I know that one. If it's the one I'm thinking of, the ground is gray, not navy.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

pkincy said:


> My experience with SF weather is that a 16 oz would be too heavy.
> 
> SF has amazingly moderate weather with a high in the mid 60's most of the year.
> 
> ...


I just looked up the average temperatures in SF and Sydney. Sydney is a couple of degrees warmer than SF in the winter, yet I make plenty of use of heavier weighted suitings. The reason is that in warmer climates houses tend to have less insulation and central heating. Buildings in warmer places simply aren't build for the cold and the result is that it can feel colder indoors in Sydney than in London and Siberia - where the central heating gets rather toasty.


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## jklu (May 22, 2005)

You are probably thinking of 39021, which has a grey ground and a pearl windowpane.


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## sheik (Apr 24, 2005)

manton said:


> Before we get ahead of ourselves, does anyone know of a 16 ounce worsted flannel book? I don't.
> 
> Scott, you don't have many options that I am aware of. There is an 11 ounce woolen flannel in the H&S Victory book, and an 11/12 worsted flannel from Lesser. I have a suit made from the former (different pattern) and while I like the color and design, the cloth lacks guts by comparison with its peers. It wears fine, mostly, but does not drape as I wish it would and the trousers lose their crease almost instantly. Anyway, I know that book has a navy windowpane.
> 
> ...


This is the sort of expertise that has me constantly coming back to AA for more. Every once in a while, you have to remember who's the teacher and who's the student! 

PJC, with respect to your question, after I've seen hacking pockets on a navy blazer, I would think it's probable that people are starting to do hacking pockets on a DB, though most on the Row would probably consider it a monstrosity. I guess that's the only reason I threw out the suggestion re: straight pockets.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

I am most grateful to all for the advice being so generously offered. Please know that it is appreciated. I hope to communicate with everyone (via posts here) prior to placing any order.

Today has brought with it a hectic schedule ... and tonight offers the same ... so I have had little time to compose a proper response. Given your willingness to share of your thoughts, tomorrow I will see to it that I have the time.

As for where I am in this process ... at my direction A&S has sent a cloth sample. I'd actually expected more than one ... so I'm not at all certain of it's correctness. I don't have it in front of me at the moment ... but I'm thinking it's 11/12 ozs. ... with a windowpane that may well be too subtle. However, that can be difficult to tell when looking at such a small sample of a larger pattern. I don't recall the maker of the cloth ... but the architect in me remembers the vertical lines being spaced at 2 1/4" apart ... however the sample did not have sufficient height to verify the spacing of the horizontal lines ... and I'd want to confirm that prior to proceeding. In any event, tomorrow I'll post what information I have.

I think my biggest concern at the moment is selecting the "right" cloth ... most particularly in terms of size, spacing and boldness of the pattern. That small sample strikes me as not so different from the paint sample which _can_ look quite different when seen in greater quantity. That may be an odd comparison ... but perhaps it will help some to better understand.

Of course, should I not proceed given the sample sent, this might well mean A&S wont have this particular piece ready for a fitting when I am in London on 10 & 11 December. However, if I am to choose between having the correct cloth and speed of delivery ... I choose the former. Waiting a little longer is preferable to a suit I'll regret.

Given our common interest on AskAndy ... if it's felt that it would benefit the forum ... I will give of my time as required to document my personal view of the bespoke process -- start to finish -- with this particular suit.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Here's my 2 cents:

straight flap pockets
NO ticket pocket - IMO this looks affected on a DB suit as well as losing the essential symmetry

Double pleats ,I favor reverse, but forward is fine. 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 cuffs depending on your height. Brace buttons and side adjusters. no fishtail or self back

side vents, especially in a flannel. It's not a dinner jacket, and as it should be buttoned, you'll like having vents. make sure they're high enough for the jacket to drape comfortably when you're seated

12 oz or lighter cloth. 16 oz+ is good for a winter suit in Chicago or Minneapolis -not the Bay area. You'll get more mileage out of a worsted flannel than a woolen flannel.

Be sure to have fun and enjoy your new purchase!:icon_smile:


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

While I don't have the sample with me, I discovered in my wallet the A&S note that accompanied it. The cloth is indicated as being H. L. 30642.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

manton said:


> Before we get ahead of ourselves, does anyone know of a 16 ounce worsted flannel book? I don't.


Lesser have a 16oz worsted bunch. I'm sure there's some flannels in there.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

manton said:


> Before we get ahead of ourselves, does anyone know of a 16 ounce worsted flannel book? I don't.
> 
> Dugdale have a 15oz milled worsted called "Town Classic"-no windowpanes though.
> For a blue flannel windowpane-I would suggest Loro Piana "saxony and flannels". I have had 3 from this book and am pleased with all of them.
> ...


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

Sticking with the classic look of no vents and no flaps would be nice too.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Bonhamesque said:


> Lesser have a 16oz worsted bunch. I'm sure there's some flannels in there.


No flannels in that book. At least, not in the books circulating in NY. Also, no navy with a chalk window, that I can recall.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Scott said:


> The cloth is indicated as being H. L. 30642.


That's the one. If you want a bolder window, you probably have to get a straight worsted.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

*My 2 cents*

Scott,

As I understand you're an architect and have a lot of suits already, I'd say woollen flannel will give the new suit a more luxurious feel.

Coat - A&S signature pointed 6-button DB; straight flap pockets with ticket pocket; side vents; turn-up cuffs like the photo below; dark browish 2-tone horn buttons if checks are red, otherwise just dark blue if checks are light blue.

Pants - button fly; side strap & buckle adjusters; 1 forward pleat and slanted side pocket at the front; 1 dart and no back pocket at the back; turn-ups according to your height.

https://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=https://img237.imageshack.us/


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## Gruto (Jul 5, 2004)

Worsted flannel might be the right choice, but a classic flannel suit is made of woolen yarns. And isn't a little strange to take a wonderful piece of worsted cloth and brush it to make it look like woolen cloth?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

I don't see anything inherently wrong with worsted flannel. All other things being equal, woolen is more distinctive and interesting, but worsted has its place. At weights below 14 (or perhaps 13) woolen flannel gets really flimsy. It doesn't drape well, loses body, bags rather easily, can't hold a crease, and goes threadbare awfully fast. Worsted flannels can safely go down to 10 ounces.

What Scott asked for -- a Navy ground, chalky white windowpane -- only exists in two books that I know of. The 11 ounce H&S wollen flannel is, in my opinion, not as good as it should be. The 11/12 worsted flannel from Lesser is better quality and better designed.

Scott, if you want something else or have an idea in mind, go over to the London Lounge and pitch it to the Cloth Club. If you can get, say, 6 or 7 people to commit to a length, Alden can take it to a weaver and have it run off as a special commission.

Oh, and worsted flannel is not simply ordinary worsted that is brushed in the finishing.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Gruto said:


> Worsted flannel might be the right choice, but a classic flannel suit is made of woolen yarns. And isn't a little strange to take a wonderful piece of worsted cloth and brush it to make it look like woolen cloth?


No. A worsted flannel holds a much better shape than a woollen. The worsted cloth would be milled (or "brushed") before it is finished so would not feel that "wonderful" at that stage anyway. I think most Flannels available to tailors are worsteds (Lessers, Smiths, Fox).

W_B


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

whistle_blower71 said:


> I think most Flannels available to tailors are worsteds (Lessers, Smiths, Fox).


Lesser and Smith have both. Worsteds outnumber the woolens in the Lesser book at least 2-1. Fox makes anything, but specializes in woolen. The Minnis book is 100% woolen. Harrison is more like 60-40 woolen to worsted.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Hunt & Winterbotham also used to have some nice West of England flannels - I assume they still do...


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

manton said:


> Lesser and Smith have both. Worsteds outnumber the woolens in the Lesser book at least 2-1. Fox makes anything, but specializes in woolen. The Minnis book is 100% woolen. Harrison is more like 60-40 woolen to worsted.


I stand corrected! I will have a closer look at those books next time I get the chance.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

*30642*

Just had a look at Lessers 30642...hmmm. Very nice as a DB, quite tempted myself. Shame my budget won't take me to A&S.


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## Blackadder (Apr 3, 2004)

I love how people on this forum would advise someone to walk into A&S and ask for reverse pleats.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

What's wrong with that?


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## Blackadder (Apr 3, 2004)

In my experience, one could instruct them with regard to the general practical features of the suit (pockets, brace/belt/straps/, flies). However, anything beyond that would result in pained expressions, "forgetting" the instruction, or a nice show to the door.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Speaking of A&S, I see that the firm is now reconstructing its website (again). Given the current interim graphics (and differing images when you visit), it looks like it will be something rather different than the past versions. Things change...even A&S!


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

manton said:


> Oh, and worsted flannel is not simply ordinary worsted that is brushed in the finishing.


I'm rather embarassed to admit that that is exactly what I thought worsted flannel (and similarly flannel twill) was/were.

What is the difference between worsted flannel and a hypothetical worsted that has been brushed to as to raise a flannel-like nap.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

Blackadder said:


> In my experience, one could instruct them with regard to the general practical features of the suit (pockets, brace/belt/straps/, flies). However, anything beyond that would result in pained expressions, "forgetting" the instruction, or a nice show to the door.


I am afraid that this is true of A and S. When prospecting in the Row prior to choosing a tailor to commission I spent some while with them - they have little concept of the customer having over much input to the suit. They produce what they want or you get to see the door.


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## Blackadder (Apr 3, 2004)

GBR said:


> I am afraid that this is true of A and S. When prospecting in the Row prior to choosing a tailor to commission I spent some while with them - they have little concept of the customer having over much input to the suit. They produce what they want or you get to see the door.


In all fairness I should add that one hears murmurs that Andersons is now a little more flexible. Indeed, they may even entertain coloured linings for city suits!


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## Gruto (Jul 5, 2004)

Cantabrigian said:


> I'm rather embarassed to admit that that is exactly what I thought worsted flannel (and similarly flannel twill) was/were.
> 
> What is the difference between worsted flannel and a hypothetical worsted that has been brushed to as to raise a flannel-like nap.


I've found a 1000 pages book on textiles (in Danish, from 1961). It states that worsted flannel ("kamgarnsflonel") is derived from two-ply or single ply soft spun yarns. After weaving the cloth is "brushed" (my dictionary don't contain the Danish words in English). This process can be done in different ways to give the worsted flannel its distinct caracter.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

whistle_blower71 said:


> Just had a look at Lessers 30642...hmmm. Very nice as a DB, quite tempted myself. Shame my budget won't take me to A&S.


Well ... I'm not at all certain that my budget really warrants it ... but given my bespoke addiction ... and my lack of will to resist ... I'm proceeding. My next step will be weighing the advice of my AskAndy "Fraternity Brothers" &#8230; starting with the limited examples of a chalky windowpane on navy.



manton said:


> That's the one. If you want a bolder window, you probably have to get a straight worsted.


Manton writes the above post about cloth sample H.L. 30642 sent to me by Anderson & Sheppard ... and I'm truly glad to hear this. I was wondering why A&S sent only one sample &#8230; but the above conversation between manton, jklu, whistle blower71 and Bonhamesque is a good indication. It seems A&S had few options. I really had no idea that a navy windowpane in flannel (woolen or worsted) would be so rare.

If I go back and think of my inspiration for having such a suit made ... it started with an Apparel Arts illustration &#8230; a b&w reprint in a small book published by Rizzoli. I recall that Kim Johnson Gross was involved with its creation &#8230; and coincidently, her husband, architect David Gross, and I once worked at the same New York firm. But, I digress &#8230; so back to the point. If my memory serves me ... the example depicted is a single-breasted suit made up in such a pattern ... perhaps even bolder.

The next time I thought seriously about such a suit, was when manton posted photographs of his own coat (suit or odd coat?) in progress; I was most impressed by what I saw. However, until this week, I was unaware of what happened to it.

Manton, I can imagine that this incident has been very disturbing for you and others. In proceeding with this commission, I owe you a debt of gratitude &#8230; in that you have been a major part of its inspiration.

If indeed that is the cloth you used &#8230; it's _the_ look I'm wanting. As for seeking the advice of the London Lounge and having something specially woven ... I'm not sure I need to do that if this is the same cloth. Although, that kind of endevor might be truly enjoyable &#8230; with another cloth &#8230; _if_ we can find 7 people who are willing to reach consensus! I'm game &#8230; perhaps for another suit down the road.

As for this suit &#8230; I decided upon a double-breasted A&S coat as I have quite a few single-breasted A&S suit coats &#8230; and yet their DB coat is perhaps the most beautiful item they make. As for details &#8230; I do plan to deviate somewhat from the details of my recent double-breasted suit coats &#8230; which have all been made by Richard Anderson. Of course, that is quite a different coat from that of A&S -- but that's another story -- and perhaps explains why deviation from previous DB detail is on my mind. I'm sitting here trying to remember if I have an A&S double-breasted suit &#8230; certainly none since 1990.

Again, I appreciate the information being shared and will be back to address the other posts. When back on later today &#8230; I'll begin by outlining the details of my more recent DB suits. And while RA is currently making-up a DB windowpane of gray flannel with a brown windowpane (I do like those checks!) &#8230; what I want from A&S will be sufficiently different to warrant another.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

The true distinction is not between worsted and woolen cloth; it is between worsted and woolen yarns. Flannel can be made from either.

One difference is the weave. Flannel is typically made on different looms, or at least looms set up differently. This is why, traditionally, Huddersfield was a worsted center but less of a flannel center. The best flannel looms and producers were in the West of England (though flannel production has declined there, quite a bit). Flannel is woven more loosely and less precisely, no matter which base yarns are used. A key reason why you can see an underlying twill on many worsted flannels is that the fibers of the worsted yarns don't lock in place haphazardly, obscuring the base weave. You almost need a mircoscope to see the weave pattern of a woolen flannel. To the naked eye, it looks like a mass of fuzz.

Pretty much all cloth comes off the loom with a nap. If the nap is left in place on a worsted cloth, that is called "unfinished worsted." If it is "clear cut" or shorn off, that is a more typical smooth finish worsted. An unfinished worsted looks in some respects like a worsted flannel, but it's not the same thing.


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## masterfred (Sep 3, 2003)

Is the finishing (along with the wool used to spin) what makes a Saxony a Saxony instead of an unfinished worsted?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

masterfred said:


> Is the finishing (along with the wool used to spin) what makes a Saxony a Saxony instead of an unfinished worsted?


The term Saxony is much abused today. Originally, the wool markets broadly separated woolen yarns into two categories: Saxony and cheviot. Saxony yarns cost more and were used for soft flannels and maybe Shetlands. Cheviots were rougher and were sold to the tweed makers. This goes back a ways to the days when finer wool came from German sheep in Saxony while rough stuff came from the British Isles. However, for many decades, it's all come from Oz.


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## Gruto (Jul 5, 2004)

masterfred said:


> Is the finishing (along with the wool used to spin) what makes a Saxony a Saxony instead of an unfinished worsted?


Saxony is based on fine woolen yarns, not worsted. Originally, Saxony wool came from England, now it comes from Australia. Typically, the weave is a 2/2 twill herringbone. Saxony cloth is brushed intensively in the finishing.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Scott said:


> Given our common interest on AskAndy ... if it's felt that it would benefit the forum ... I will give of my time as required to document my personal view of the bespoke process -- start to finish -- with this particular suit.


I, for one, will look forward to reading all the instalments. I truly enjoy reading about everyone's purchases. I find it byt turns inspirational and insightful. Thanks in advance for taking the time to do this.


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## Tutee (Jun 7, 2004)

Scott said:


> If I go back and think of my inspiration for having such a suit made ... it started with an Apparel Arts illustration &#8230; a b&w reprint in a small book published by Rizzoli. I recall that Kim Johnson Gross was involved with its creation &#8230; and coincidently, her husband, architect David Gross, and I once worked at the same New York firm. But, I digress &#8230; so back to the point. If my memory serves me ... the example depicted is a single-breasted suit made up in such a pattern ... perhaps even bolder.


Scott... was it one?

If so, it is already one of the talked about projects at the Lounge.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Blackadder said:


> In my experience, one could instruct them with regard to the general practical features of the suit (pockets, brace/belt/straps/, flies). However, anything beyond that would result in pained expressions, "forgetting" the instruction, or a nice show to the door.





GBR said:


> I am afraid that this is true of A and S. When prospecting in the Row prior to choosing a tailor to commission I spent some while with them - they have little concept of the customer having over much input to the suit. They produce what they want or you get to see the door.





medwards said:


> Speaking of A&S, I see that the firm is now reconstructing its website (again). Given the current interim graphics (and differing images when you visit), it looks like it will be something rather different than the past versions. Things change...even A&S!


I too was always told that A&S did it there way or no way ... and in my early days as a client that seemed to be true. There was that time I told Mr. Harvey (I _never_ called him Colin!) that I wanted something in black to be worn to funerals. He refused and picked out a charcoal gray ... saying I'd thank him later. I did in a recent post. Then there was the time I referred to a coat as a jacket ... and I was immediately corrected, "Sir, that is called a coat, not a jacket." When I responded that a coat was what I wore in the winter, I was informed, "No, sir, that is an overcoat you wear in the winter." I was the student ... they were the teacher! Head lowered and tail between legs (Some folks in a current watch thread think I'm a devil &#8230; don't tell them about the tail &#8230; they don't need to know for sure.) I'd comply and adhere to the rules. But even so &#8230; I never felt minimized or discredited. I felt privileged to be receiving valuable information &#8230; to be on the inside.

When last fall I returned to Anderson & Sheppard for the first time since 1996 ... I was surprised by a number of changes. First, there is the new showroom which is substantially different from the old. Most noticeably, it's smaller &#8230; without the vastness of the old place. And it's &#8230; well &#8230; new ... nothing like Number 30 which seemed frozen in time from the day of its opening ... albeit a bit worn at the seams after all those years of operation. There is now an elegant clubby feel replacing the "utility" of the old. Moreover, gone are the rows of tables groaning under the weight of cloth piled high &#8230; and in their place is a showroom with neatly organized swatch books &#8230; and yes, a few bolts of tweed. But still present are the great ledger books ... the ones for recording client accounts &#8230; by hand &#8230; in script that evidences real penmanship! Oh &#8230; the antlered trophy &#8230; it's in the workroom ... just don't tell PETA.

The second change was Karl Matthews, the fellow who greeted me when I walked in. I did a web search on him the other day ... and his personal myspace.com page told me enough to be confident that he is not of the old Anderson & Sheppard. Of course, I'm sure that could have been said about Alexander McQueen ... but I never met him there ... perhaps he was not out front to interact with the customers.

Third ... Mr. Hitchcock smiled. Prior to 96 ... the only smile I recall was that of Mr. Harvey ... who could be simultaneously very proper and playfully sly.

Fourth ... I note that I write Karl Matthews ... but Mr. Hitchcock. Some things change ... some things don't. While I call Karl Mr. Matthews, I'd be comfortable calling him by his first name ... but I am not there with Mr. Hitchcock &#8230; I may never be. But I rather like the formality of using Mister at Anderson & Sheppard &#8230; I'm reminded of the old days.

Fifth ... when I placed an order for a new coat (NOT an odd jacket!) ... I was _very_ surprised to hear Mr. Hitchcock say ... I see you are wearing one button ... do you want it made that way. I wasn't sure I was hearing correctly. If A&S made one button coats in my previous time there ... _no one_ bothered to tell me. And when Karl suggested a buttery soft yellow lining &#8230; my first words were, "You'll let me do that?" Mr. Hitchcock said, "Yes, it's not quite like the old days. This would never have flown back then. There has been a bit of change &#8230; but the more important things haven't changed."

I smiled, Mr. Hitchcock smiled, and we shook hands. Once again I was - and am - an Anderson & Sheppard client.

Well, it's midnight here in California. I'll post the current DB details tomorrow.

*EDIT:* The coat they are currently making ... is indeed one button.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Tutee said:


> Scott... was it one?
> 
> If so, it is already one of the talked about projects at the Lounge.


Yes, indeed it is! However the image I have is black and white ... as included in the Rizzoli book, _Men in Style_. This is the first time I have seen it in color. Thank you, Tutee!

The description indicates a "faint blue overplaid "... but I always liked picturing that suit in navy with a chalky windowpane.

While I don't participate in the London Lounge (I find participation in one forum to be all I can handle from a time perspective) I was admitted as a member some time ago. And given my love of "checks" ... oh my ... I could easily work with that cloth ... especially now that I've seen it in color.

This is not to say I will change my current plan ... but I'm thinking down the road. Perhaps I need to rethink participation in the London Lounge!


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## The Doctor (Oct 17, 2005)

How about this one from Holland & Sherry?

I've just ordered a few patterns to send to my customer and this one arrived first. If any of the others look as good I'll post them.

Maybe could have been 13oz but hey.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Yes the Viceroy flannels bunch is quite nice.
They also do a few 15 oz flannels but sadly only in plain colours.


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## Blackadder (Apr 3, 2004)

Scott said:


> And when Karl suggested a buttery soft yellow lining.


Is that the sound of the British Empire crumbling? Milkmen gone, A&S finding customer service... Those ravens in the Tower had better watch it!


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Scott: to be clear, the Cloth Club is doing the Eden cloth as depicted, with a twist. See that white shadow to the blue window? There was discussion about whether that is in the cloth's pattern or whether it's the artist trying to mimic the way sunlight makes the pattern look. In the end, we concluded that it was the latter. But we also concluded that mid-gray with a sky window is not that hard to find. So cloth Alden is designing will be a lighter shade, and will have a faint white shadow to the windowpane, to give it some additional interest. That will truly be unique, which is sort of the point when commissioning things from weavers.

I still maintain that for an 11 ounce or so navy with a chalky white window, you can't do better than Lesser 30642. Not from what is currently available.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

As I have noted previously, I had a suit made up this Spring in the Lesser 11 ounce navy with light _blue_ window pane. It is, of course, much more subtle than what Scott has in mind, but the fabric is quite lovely and made up exceptionally well.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Blackadder said:


> Is that the sound of the British Empire crumbling? Milkmen gone, A&S finding customer service... Those ravens in the Tower had better watch it!


Hey, I've still got a milkman.

Or to be PC perhaps I should say a 'milkperson'.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

There's still a milkman where I live, though service is extremely limited and now fairly expensive. When I was a kid in the 70's, though, my grandfather had a milk route before he went to commercial delivery.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Bonhamesque said:


> Hey, I've still got a milkman.
> 
> Or to be PC perhaps I should say a 'milkperson'.


Depends on what she looks like, I suppose.


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## masterfred (Sep 3, 2003)

Interesting to see Mr. Matthews' myspace page. This is one of the more interesting things about the world-wide web: that a tailor in the most traditional, reserved Savile Row shops is on that most modern of media, and looking rather "scruffy" in his off-hours (by which I mean no disrespect!). 

I liked all his snaps of A&S suits in progress. Perhaps young blood like this is what A&S needs to loosen it up a bit.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

The website says he's the founder of Shear. What is Shear and has he left A&S?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

As Richard Anderson's clothing is significantly different from that of A&S, a change in the details might be expected.

My most recent DB suit is by RA with details as follows:

*Jacket:* double vents, 3 pockets (welt at breast and jetted hip &#8230; but no ticket) , 6x2 buttons.

*Trousers:* double forward pleats, zippered closure at fly, 2 rear pockets (button through, no flap), tapered legs, 1.75" cuffs &#8230; and as I duck for cover &#8230; uhhhh ... belt loops (but with interior brace buttons).

As for the belt loops &#8230; as I look back &#8230; they weren't my brightest move. And be critical if you must ... I can take it!

I have belt loops on two RA DB suits. Over the last several years &#8230; I'm finding that even correctly fitted braces often cause me to experience a slight backache. My thinking -- perhaps flawed -- at the time of commissions was &#8230; I'll never wear those suits without the jackets on &#8230; why not try loops?

My current thinking is to revert to side extension tabs (I've already informed RA as to this change regarding future trousers commissions made by them) and to continue to include brace buttons &#8230; which has typically been my preferred way of having my trousers made.

*Thoughts on the new:* Jacket (*EDIT:* uhhh ... I mean coat!) w/ double vents, 6x2 button stance, welt breast pocket and flapped hip pockets -- I'm still considering the inclusion of a ticket pocket but am leaning toward including one &#8230; as I have DBs with jetted pockets and also with flap pockets ... but none with ticket pocket. Trousers w/ double forward pleats (as for rear pleats &#8230; A&S hasn't changed _that_ much as yet), button fly (I've used it before and I do like it), 2 rear pockets (button through, no flap), tapered legs, 1.75" cuffs. As for the back &#8230; while I rather like the high brace back &#8230; and have it the trousers of several A&S SB suits &#8230; given that I'm not wearing braces as much as I once did (due to the back problem) ... I'm not certain this would be the right choice &#8230; but I do truly appreciate that look.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

masterfred said:


> Interesting to see Mr. Matthews' myspace page. This is one of the more interesting things about the world-wide web: that a tailor in the most traditional, reserved Savile Row shops is on that most modern of media, and looking rather "scruffy" in his off-hours (by which I mean no disrespect!).
> 
> I liked all his snaps of A&S suits in progress. Perhaps young blood like this is what A&S needs to loosen it up a bit.


Mr. Matthews is quite different for Anderson & Sheppard ... certainly given my past experience. But I have to admit ... I really like the fellow. In fact, he was the one who first convinced me to try them again ... following what has been a ten year interval.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

manton said:


> Scott: to be clear, the Cloth Club is doing the Eden cloth as depicted, with a twist. See that white shadow to the blue window? There was discussion about whether that is in the cloth's pattern or whether it's the artist trying to mimic the way sunlight makes the pattern look. In the end, we concluded that it was the latter. But we also concluded that mid-gray with a sky window is not that hard to find. So cloth Alden is designing will be a lighter shade, and will have a faint white shadow to the windowpane, to give it some additional interest. That will truly be unique, which is sort of the point when commissioning things from weavers.
> 
> I still maintain that for an 11 ounce or so navy with a chalky white window, you can't do better than Lesser 30642. Not from what is currently available.


Manton, the twist is brilliant! I too had wondered about the white last night when seeing the illustration in Tutee's link. It's amazing what dimension color adds to black and white. It think the look of the cloth will be far more unique and beautiful with the white "shadow."

Is it still possible for one to join the group making the commission?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Scott said:


> Is it still possible for one to join the group making the commission?


Certainly. If you're already a member, just sign in and inquire with Alden.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

manton said:


> I still maintain that for an 11 ounce or so navy with a chalky white window, you can't do better than Lesser 30642. Not from what is currently available.


I took another look at that 11-12 ounce cloth again today and would certainly concur. It may be a bit more subtle than what Scott was seeking, but if he is wedded to those colours, this may well be the best choice. I should note that the dark gray version (30640) looks like might appear a tad bolder and the light gray (30644) with the light blue windowpane is more subdued but rather sophisticated and appears to be very similar to the pattern in the illustration Tutee so kindly provided. In any case, all three are very nice fabrics.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

manton said:


> I still maintain that for an 11 ounce or so navy with a chalky white window, you can't do better than Lesser 30642. Not from what is currently available.





medwards said:


> I took another look at that 11-12 ounce cloth again today and would certainly concur. It may be a bit more subtle than what Scott was seeking, but if he is wedded to those colours, this may well be the best choice. I should note that the dark gray version (30640) looks like might appear a tad bolder and the light gray (30644) with the light blue windowpane is more subdued but rather sophisticated and appears to be very similar to the pattern in the illustration Tutee so kindly provided. In any case, all three are very nice fabrics.


Thanks very much for this discussion ... this has helped me arrive at a decision to use H. L. 30640. A&S also wrote advising the same ...

_Dear Mr (Scott),

After looking through our fabric range we have found only one suitable alternative to the H.L. 30642 dark blue chalkstripe windowpane flannel. The alternative is produced by Holland & Sherry. The background colour is an almost identical navy blue, and although the chalkstripe check may be a fraction bolder, the check is noticeably smaller.

In our opinion, the H.L. 30642 is a more elegant overall design and would be an ideal choice for your suit.

Should you require a pattern of each sample, we will be happy to forward them to you.

Yours sincerely,

Colin Heywood
Anderson & Sheppard Ltd._

As for the London Lounge cloth ... I will indeed inquire of Alden ... as this is perhaps the best possible version of light blue on gray ... especially with the addition of white.

I'm also grateful for the above discussion about the difference of woolen vs. worsted flannel ... as Sheik says ... there is always something to be learned here. I'm not sure I really knew the true difference. When I'm next at A&S or RA ... I'll as to compare the two side by side.

As for those of you voting for the heavier fabrics ... I do have some vintage A&S pieces as well as some from Hogg & Johnstone ... from the days when cloth had real heft! Well, they have heft until I slip into them ... then comfort replaces the feel of weight.

Now it's a matter of coming to a decision regarding the details. And I will indeed be going without the belt loops!


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

harrybee said:


> The website says he's the founder of Shear. What is Shear and has he left A&S?


Maybe someone else can answer your question about Shear ... perhaps Karl himself ... I think there is a contact via the myspace.com page.

Not having been dropped into A&S since earlier this year ... I'm not sure if he's still there. I did not ask Mr. Hitchcock when I saw him in San Francisco earlier this fall.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

harrybee said:


> The website says he's the founder of Shear. What is Shear?


It is Karl Matthews' own company/label.


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## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Scott said:


> And when Karl suggested a buttery soft yellow lining &#8230; my first words were, "You'll let me do that?" Mr. Hitchcock said, "Yes, it's not quite like the old days. This would never have flown back then. There has been a bit of change &#8230; but the more important things haven't changed."
> 
> I smiled, Mr. Hitchcock smiled, and we shook hands. Once again I was - and am - an Anderson & Sheppard client.


Those are interesting developments at A&S. Do you have any sense of what prompted the recent change toward greater accommodation and flexibility? I can think of some consumer trends and business reasons for the change, but was curious to know if the staff also played a part.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

erasmus said:


> Those are interesting developments at A&S. Do you have any sense of what prompted the recent change toward greater accommodation and flexibility? I can think of some consumer trends and business reasons for the change, but was curious to know if the staff also played a part.


I would like to hear other's thoughts and experiences of this change.

I do sense that the change in guard has, over time, brought change with it.

As for what follows ... I am just speculating. But given some of the stories I hear about firms changing hands when it comes to owners ... and the affect the owner -- or owners -- can have on a firm's operation ... I sometimes wonder about Anderson & Sheppard. But frankly I don't know which firms are owned by outside parties and which are owned by staff ... so I admit I just don't know the situation at Anderson & Sheppard. Moreover, it seems that enough of the old policy of secrecy still holds true ... that I doubt they are about to "fill me in."


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

If you're unlucky enough to have your suit shipped, you will find an invoice on company letterhead that lists the principals. Can't remember all of them, but on the list are John Hitchcock and Tiny Rowland's widow. I think Rowland had propped the place up for a while more or less as a hobby.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Concordia said:


> If you're unlucky enough to have your suit shipped, you will find an invoice on company letterhead that lists the principals. Can't remember all of them, but on the list are John Hitchcock and Tiny Rowland's widow. I think Rowland had propped the place up for a while more or less as a hobby.


Shipped? Oh heaven forbid ... I'd rather not know!

However ... I'll see if I can come by letterhead another way. Now lets see ... think deviously.

Scott


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## The Doctor (Oct 17, 2005)

Scott said:


> I too was always told that A&S did it there way or no way ... and in my early days as a client that seemed to be true. There was that time I told Mr. Harvey (I _never_ called him Colin!) that I wanted something in black to be worn to funerals. He refused and picked out a charcoal gray ... saying I'd thank him later. I did in a recent post. Then there was the time I referred to a coat as a jacket ... and I was immediately corrected, "Sir, that is called a coat, not a jacket." When I responded that a coat was what I wore in the winter, I was informed, "No, sir, that is an overcoat you wear in the winter." I was the student ... they were the teacher! Head lowered and tail between legs (Some folks in a current watch thread think I'm a devil &#8230; don't tell them about the tail &#8230; they don't need to know for sure.) I'd comply and adhere to the rules. But even so &#8230; I never felt minimized or discredited. I felt privileged to be receiving valuable information &#8230; to be on the inside.
> 
> When last fall I returned to Anderson & Sheppard for the first time since 1996 ... I was surprised by a number of changes. First, there is the new showroom which is substantially different from the old. Most noticeably, it's smaller &#8230; without the vastness of the old place. And it's &#8230; well &#8230; new ... nothing like Number 30 which seemed frozen in time from the day of its opening ... albeit a bit worn at the seams after all those years of operation. There is now an elegant clubby feel replacing the "utility" of the old. Moreover, gone are the rows of tables groaning under the weight of cloth piled high &#8230; and in their place is a showroom with neatly organized swatch books &#8230; and yes, a few bolts of tweed. But still present are the great ledger books ... the ones for recording client accounts &#8230; by hand &#8230; in script that evidences real penmanship! Oh &#8230; the antlered trophy &#8230; it's in the workroom ... just don't tell PETA.
> 
> ...


A couple of reasons why, Thomas Mahon and myself left A&S to start Steed.

The change was brought about after Mr. Harvey, Mr. Halberry retired and control of the company was influenced by outside and not by those who knew what A&S, tailoring and their customers were about.

Mr. Harvey was such a wonderful man and a great cutter with his own unique style & flare. I could sit and listen to his anecdotes all day.

Below is a photo of his shears (forefront), which he gave to me, on his retirement, minus the yellow ribbon which use to adorn them, as they do mine now. The shears in the background belonged to my father, who was also a cutter.



And to leave you all with another quote from Mr. Harvey and the A&S book.

"WEAR IT, GET TO LIKE IT" "Good day sir"


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

There's an A&S book???


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## stcolumba (Oct 10, 2006)

Scott said:


> As Richard Anderson's clothing is significantly different from that of A&S, a change in the details might be expected.
> 
> My most recent DB suit is by RA with details as follows:
> 
> ...


I have three DB suit coats, and all of them have a ticket pocket. Personally, I love that look.


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## The Doctor (Oct 17, 2005)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> There's an A&S book???


No but I should write one.


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## masterfred (Sep 3, 2003)

The Doctor said:


> No but I should write one.


Indeed you should. Think what would be lost if all these stories fade into oblivion.

Mr. Deboise, Mahon has shown through his blog some of the differences between his own cutting and that of A&S; what would you say marks your own work as different?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The Doctor said:


> A couple of reasons why, Thomas Mahon and myself left A&S to start Steed.
> 
> The change was brought about after Mr. Harvey, Mr. Halberry retired and control of the company was influenced by outside and not by those who knew what A&S, tailoring and their customers were about.
> 
> ...


I smiled as I read this post. It is quite an honor that you have his shears!

Recently Brian Lishak told me that Colin's brother works for a cloth firm on Savile Row. I've been tempted to go by and meet him. It's not that I expect him to be Colin ... I just want to say how much I respected his brother.

Colin was very much a modern man ... but he was also a gentleman of another era.

EDIT: A question for *The Doctor* if you feel comfortable answering ... How much shirt cuff (in inches) did Mr. Harvey show? I recall it being more than the traditional (at least here in America) one half inch. And any more you can tell us about him will be greatly appreciated. Just to think about him brings a smile to my face. He was a VERY good man.

And yet another question ... Have there always been men who get their start in tailoring ... but who obviously desire to be "bigger" ... say, a hit in the fashion world! I wonder about Mr. McQueen ... especially how he could leave the respectable job of tailoring for the fashion world? Yes, he's now somewhat of a celebrity ... but a bit tawdry.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Indeed you should ... the Anderson & Sheppard of which you speak -- as well as Mr. Harvey & Mr. Halberry -- are history. I can't imagine any who have posted in this thread who would not buy it.

Someone _must_ do this ... the information ... the memories ... they are all to valuable to be lost.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The order has been placed and confirmed.

_Dear Mr (Scott),

Thank you for the order for a double breasted two piece suit in material H.L. 30642.

The material you have selected has sufficient weight and body to provide the "Anderson & Sheppard drape".

We will make the suit as your specified style, which is very much in keeping with our tradition and cut. Double vents, out ticket pocket on the right, with flaps to the pockets, and working button holes.

As a possible alternative to high cut brace trousers, they can be made with straight tops, strap and buckle to hips and with tabs at the back with brace buttons inside the waistband. This will allow you the option of wearing braces if you wish. We make this style for many customers who like to occasionally remove the jacket. We will cut the trousers with forward pleats, button fly, and two hip pockets without flap. The legs tapered with 1.75" cuffs.

Please can you confirm your preference regarding the trouser style, either straight tops with the tabs at back, or cut higher at the back for braces.

We look forward to receiving your instructions.

Yours sincerely,

Colin Heywood
Anderson & Sheppard Ltd._

While I really like the look of the high back ... given that I am often wearing my suit without brace buttons ... I chose the alternative and notified A&S.

It should be ready for a fitting when I stop in on 11 December. While I've never done this before ... and I don't know if they will allow ... I may try to get a photograph or two.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

A *special thank you* to all who helped &#8230; Teacher, pkincy, PJC in NoVa, sheik, Holdfast, Concordia, Bonhamesque, jklu, gefinzi, manton, Sator, yachtie, whistle blower71, DragOn, harrybee, Gruto, blackadder, medwards, Cantabrigian, GBR, masterfred, Tutee, The Doctor, erasmus, Mr. Chatterbox, and stcolumba!

Again, each and every one of you, thank you.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Now that you have ordered this suggestion is kinda late. 

But it seems like flapped hacking pockets with ticket pocket would look great on you with this coat.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

WA ... thanks for the suggestion. However, my last e-mail was an order confirmation including details. And while Anderson & Sheppard is known for understatement ... were I to write yet another e-mail -- there have been quite a few -- I fear a response as follows. 

Dear Sir, 

Thank you for your kind order for a double breasted suit; but, no thank you. 

Yours Respectfully,
Mr. I'veHadEnough

No, I'm certain they'd never write that ... but at the same time ... I don't want to cause frustration.


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## sheik (Apr 24, 2005)

The Doctor said:


> A couple of reasons why, Thomas Mahon and myself left A&S to start Steed.
> 
> The change was brought about after Mr. Harvey, Mr. Halberry retired and control of the company was influenced by outside and not by those who knew what A&S, tailoring and their customers were about.
> 
> ...


I love pictures of shears.

It's so human.

It reminds me why I buy good clothing 

p.s. Scott, everyone is looking forward to photos of what promises to be an awesome result!


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

sheik said:


> I love pictures of shears.


You must like this one then:

from:

--Andre


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

*Edwin, you really should.*



The Doctor said:


> No but I should write one.


Please do ring me up when you are in Boston this coming January...I will just be back from the beaches of Mexico, but I think I will be able to recall that I need something in dark blue.

Did you see this topic?

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=62114

And Scott, why not confound current convention and go quite wide?

Regards,
Bill


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## The Doctor (Oct 17, 2005)

voxsartoria said:


> Please do ring me up when you are in Boston this coming January...I will just be back from the beaches of Mexico, but I think I will be able to recall that I need something in dark blue.
> 
> Did you see this topic?
> 
> ...


William,
It will be a pleasure and I look forward to seeing you. 
I've just read the article and I'll post a version that I put on LL.
Best regards,
Edwin


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

William, I must admit, I have opted for lapels a bit narrower ... or so I think. But given this thread ... A&S being open to change ... I could be in for a surprise. 

I am not one who'd ever compare himself to HRH ... but I was thinking that I might be about the same size and frame ... perhaps a bit more athletic. I decided to try "Googling" ... just to see if I could come up with some statistics as to his height, weight, etc ... but instead found the statistics of a Pomeranian named "Duke of Windsor. 

I think that appropriate given that I was thinking that I might have something in common with Him.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

As to Mr. Matthews ...


harrybee said:


> ... has he left A&S?


A&S writes that he is still with them ... that was as of yesterday.


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

Scott said:


> I am not one who'd ever compare himself to HRH ... but I was thinking that I might be about the same size and frame ... perhaps a bit more athletic.


I believe HRH was 5'6". VIII was quite unlike the Plantagenet I, whose reputed 6'2" earned him a nickname worthy (nearly) of this forum.

I look forward to your photojournalism.

Regards,
Bill


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Was in London on Monday and had the first fitting. Ordering a bit prior to a visit -- via a sample -- makes the process go so much faster than when ordering on one visit and being fitted on the next.

The trousers were tried and adjusted in the morning ... and the jacket in the afternoon (it ... uhhh ... wasn't ready that morning). All is looking very nice ... and I'm happy with the fit. Interestingly ... it's going to be a relatively subtle suit -- from my point of view -- especially from any distance.

As for photographs ... sorry ... but that is a definite but curteous *"NO"* at A&S. I didn't even have to ask (some may have seen my other post). The conversation was almost immediately directed to the A&S photo and privacy policies.

As always ... everyone was kind and very understated ... polite but not given to chatting ... except for Mr. Matthews ... who can always be encourage to chat a bit. Of course that is good for me ... as I prefer some kind of personal connection. But apparently he's having a few too many hits at his website ... making him a bit too popular.


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

*Splendid...*



RSS said:


> Was in London on Monday and had the first fitting.


...forgive me, S., but is this your first A&S fitting at the new address? How do you compare it to the atmosphere at the old premises?

Regards,
Bill


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

And what is the deal with Karl's website? Is this something he's running on the side, or is this a way to pull people onto his side of the A&S sales floor?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

voxsartoria said:


> ...forgive me, S., but is this your first A&S fitting at the new address? How do you compare it to the atmosphere at the old premises?


Number Thirty-two Old Burlington Street is rather plush ... having the look of well-appointed library ... except that the reading material has been replaced by swatch books. Number Thirty Savile Row was a bit utilitarian ... reminding me of a county recorder's office of yesteryear ... but with bolts of clothing in place of the great handwritten volumes of official records.

The new space has a large front window, but the interior is deeper than it is wide ... resulting in a somewhat dark space. The previous space, due to its corner location and wide (rather than deep) interior, had windows on two sides and was light-filled.

The new strikes me as a little small ... but the fitting rooms are ample size ... easily accommodating staff (one or two) and client. The old was over-sized for a Savile Row tailors quarters ... and the fitting rooms were huge ... perhaps a hundred square feet (nine square meters) ... and could easily have accommodate five or more had they reason to be there.

In the new space I'm comfortable ... whereas the old space was comforting to me due to familiarity.

Interesting aside: When changing trousers ... at least in my experience ... A&S staff has always departed the dressing room ... at Richard Anderson they stay put and conversation continues.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Concordia said:


> And what is the deal with Karl's website? Is this something he's running on the side, or is this a way to pull people onto his side of the A&S sales floor?


I'm not quite sure. He did say its popularity has caused a bit of friction. I assume that he meant with A&S directors ... but don't know for a fact.


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

RSS said:


> Number Thirty Savile Row was a bit utilitarian ... reminding me of a country recorder's office of yesteryear.


Thank you, S. I have not been in London in years, but I have a fond memory of visiting #30. Walking through the door was like emerging in a different time, but a time that was still a living thing.

Regards,
Bill


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## The Doctor (Oct 17, 2005)

RSS said:


> I smiled as I read this post. It is quite an honor that you have his shears!
> 
> Recently Brian Lishak told me that Colin's brother works for a cloth firm on Savile Row. I've been tempted to go by and meet him. It's not that I expect him to be Colin ... I just want to say how much I respected his brother.
> 
> ...


Sorry for not getting back sooner I've just seen the thread. He did show a bit more cuff, probably about 3/4" to an inch.

Mr McQueen wasn't there when I arrived August 1st 1988, with my cutting square under my arm and the words of Mr. Harvey resounding in my ear, "oh you won't need that". but as I understand it, he wasn't there very long and there is much debate, as to whether, he ever did write in H.R.H. jacket.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

RSS said:


> Interesting aside: When changing trousers ... at least in my experience ... A&S staff has always departed the dressing room ... at Richard Anderson they stay put and conversation continues.


That is interesting. The first few times that I tried on my trousers at Rubinacci, the cutter would bow his head as I changed. Now after becoming better acquainted, he just hands them to me and keeps talking.

I really enjoy more familiarity as I think that it leads to you being in a more natural state as you try your clothing, and above all, it is a lot more fun to talk with interesting and kind people than it is to feel nervous about committing some sort of faux pas.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

iammatt said:


> I really enjoy more familiarity as I think that it leads to you being in a more natural state as you try your clothing, and above all, it is a lot more fun to talk with interesting and kind people than it is to feel nervous about committing some sort of faux pas.


I'm in complete agreement here. This is very important to me ... for exactly the reasons you state.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

RSS said:


> Interesting aside: When changing trousers ... at least in my experience ... A&S staff has always departed the dressing room ... at Richard Anderson they stay put and conversation continues.


Tom Mahon would also just keep talking to you, but his (female) assistant would leave the room. I had thought this was a compromise of his using a hotel room instead of having the full facilities of a shop, but I guess not.

--Andre


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

I don't want to dwell on this subject ... but I suppose it could help a new client past the initial embarrassment. 

Having been an athlete in my younger days ... I occasionally found myself at a fitting only to realize that I was wearing a jock brief (a jock strap having a seat). The first time this occurred ... I decided I had better warn those in the dressing room ... preferring not to offend or shock. The senior staff member responded very matter-of-fact, "Oh, not to worry, that's quite modest by comparison with what I've seen over the years."


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Maybe they were doing some primary research. 

For one basted try-on at another shop, my fitter stopped in the middle of my trouser fitting (I had changed in the adjacent room) and stared for a moment at my crotch. "Tell me sir, do you always wear boxer shorts?" 

When I allowed that Yes, I did, he made a whole passel of corrective chalk marks. It might have been the basest sort of flattery, but the marks went halfway down my left leg.


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## The Doctor (Oct 17, 2005)

RSS said:


> I don't want to dwell on this subject ... but I suppose it could help a new client past the initial embarrassment.
> 
> Having been an athlete in my younger days ... I occasionally found myself at a fitting only to realize that I was wearing a jock brief (a jock strap having a seat). The first time this occurred ... I decided I had better warn those in the dressing room ... preferring not to offend or shock. The senior staff member responded very matter-of-fact, "Oh, not to worry, that's quite modest by comparison with what I've seen over the years."


There was a certain playboy/writer, who was an A&S customer, who wore nothing and dropped his trousers in front of you and his current girlfriend, without blinking an eye. And depening on where she was sitting, well I think you can guess the rest.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Just thought I'd update ... given the card received in today's mail.

My first thought was ... Jacket? *Jacket?* What happened to coat?

https://imageshack.us

It will be a couple of months before I am next in London ... but I will post a photo or two once I take delivery.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

RSS said:


> Just thought I'd update ... given the card received in today's mail.
> 
> My first thought was ... Jacket? *Jacket?* What happened to coat?
> 
> It will be a couple of months before I am next in London ... but I will post a photo or two once I take delivery.


Yes that does seem strange.
It sounds like you've ordered a sports jacket and a pair of trousers...


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

On the A&S price list, "lounge suit" refers only to a three piece suit. A two piece suit is just called "jacket and trousers." However, the men who make jackets are still called "coatmakers" and down in the workroom, they call the garment a coat.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Manton, thank you for the clarification.

My first thought on seeing the card was similar to Bonhamesque's reading of it. And there I was thinking ... have I ordered something I don't remember.

Back in the "old" days ... when my contact was mostly with Colin Harvey and Norman Halsey ... I'd be corrected for using the term jacket. The conversation would go along the lines of ...

*RSS:* "Now, this jacket will become a favorite." 

*Colin Harvey:* "It is called ... a coat." 

And ... given that the coat ... uhhhh ... I mean jacket is double breasted ... I decided to do without the vest. I suppose I could always change my mind (bespoke makes that easy) ... but not sure I really need to.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

The term "jacket" for "suit coat" seems rather common these days among Savile Row tailors, at least in the front of the house. Even the Savile Row Bespoke Association website detailing bespoke craftsmanship uses the term "jacket." And who said these tailors were a stodgy lot????


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## masterfred (Sep 3, 2003)

medwards said:


> The term "jacket" for "suit coat" seems rather common these days among Savile Row tailors, at least in the front of the house. Even the Savile Row Bespoke Association website detailing bespoke craftsmanship uses the term "jacket." And who said these tailors were a stodgy lot????


It must be all the young blood on the Row that has led to the precipitous change in terminology.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

I was recently contacted by e-mail and asked what happened to the A&S DB suit covered by this thread. While I'm not a regular poster on AAAC these days ... please know that I hope to return by mid-summer and post a photo or two of the results.

Prior to now, a health issue has prevented me from going to England to make myself available for a final fitting and to take delivery -- and Anderson & Sheppard will not be in SF again until the Fall -- however, it appears likely that I will be able to visit London at the end of July ... staying until early August. 

Naturally my hope is to take delivery at the time of my visit ... assuming all goes well with the final fitting. If so, I will post the results upon my return. If the suit isn't with me ... I will post w/ an update ... then await the suit's journey over with A&S staff in the Fall. 

It seems only appropriate that this thread be concluded properly ... and I have every intention of making that happen. I'll even do my best to answer questions. 

Please know that I miss talking with my fellow members of this terrific sartorial "fraternity."

RSS/ta


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## RichardS (Nov 20, 2004)

Hello Scott, nice to "hear" from you again.:icon_smile:


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## ccffm1 (Jul 31, 2005)

Nice to have you back, RSS, even if only for an update. I´m looking forward to your return in summer and hope you´ll soon be well.


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## jcriswel (Sep 16, 2006)

*Good journey*

I wish you the best RSS and hope that you take delivery on your new suit and find it to be as enjoyable as you had originally anticipated. I'm on your side and hoping your journey ahead is a good one.

jcriswel


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

Hi RSS,

I hope you are fully recovered - did you ever manage to take delivery of the coat and trousers?


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## LaoHu (Sep 16, 2006)

Thanks so much for the update. It's great to have news from you! Hope you have a safe and pleasant journey to London.


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## mrchapel (Jun 21, 2006)

Vik said:


> Hi RSS,
> 
> I hope you are fully recovered - did you ever manage to take delivery of the coat and trousers?


Perhaps it is prudent to read a post completely...



RSS said:


> Prior to now, a health issue has prevented me from going to England to make myself available for a final fitting and to take delivery -- and Anderson & Sheppard will not be in SF again until the Fall -- however, it appears likely that I will be able to visit London at the end of July ... staying until early August.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

mrchapel said:


> Perhaps it is prudent to read a post completely...


I did...the original post was dated some years back...I just wanted to enquire if (i) the gentleman in question was fully recovered and (ii) was he satisfied with his order.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Nice to see you here again Scott.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Vik said:


> I did...the original post was dated some years back...I just wanted to enquire if (i) the gentleman in question was fully recovered and (ii) was he satisfied with his order.


Read again. He posted yesterday that he has not yet made it back to England to take delivery, because of his health issues.


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## mrchapel (Jun 21, 2006)

Orgetorix said:


> Read again. He posted yesterday that he has not yet made it back to England to take delivery, because of his health issues.


+1, thanks. That's what I was trying to point out to him.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

mrchapel said:


> +1, thanks. That's what I was trying to point out to him.


apologies - misread the join date as the date of the last post. stand corrected!


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Good to hear from you, RSS. Please keep in touch.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Some time ago I promised to come back and post a photograph.

I will certainly try to get a better photo or two to add some time this fall... perhaps a full-length straight on and another that is more of a profile.

As for the shirt and tie ... given that this shot was taken on a Sunday morning ... I didn't have many options as I really must wear a white shirt and silver or grey tie under my cassock.

https://imageshack.us


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Yup-- standard issue A&S DB. 

Love it.


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## voxsartoria (Nov 21, 2006)

RSS said:


> Some time ago I promised to come back and post a photograph.


Splendid, S.

- B


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

That looks like quite beautiful cloth! Congratulations...it's gorgeous.


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## Eustace Tilley (Sep 23, 2007)

Nicely done!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Looks good!


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## charle22 (Feb 20, 2004)

*AS is the best*

Great suit! &#8230; the shade of navy nice


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

The coat looks very soft & comfortable.


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## rssmsvc (Aug 5, 2004)

I think the material choice will be dependent on how often you plan on using it. I adore flannel but I have read that others have issues with flannel wearing out in the knees and crotch, while I hear that less so with worsted. 

If it was me I would go the woolen flannel route with dual vents and I thought I saw a jacket Yachtie had from Mr. Despos that had cool side pockets on the jacket. I would go unflapped pockets because I love the lines on a DB and the flaps throw something off.


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## rssmsvc (Aug 5, 2004)

RSS said:


> Some time ago I promised to come back and post a photograph.
> 
> I will certainly try to get a better photo or two to add some time this fall... perhaps a full-length straight on and another that is more of a profile.
> 
> ...


That looks spectacular on you


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## Leon (Apr 16, 2005)

RSS said:


> As for the shirt and tie ... given that this shot was taken on a Sunday morning ... I didn't have many options as I really must wear a white shirt and silver or grey tie under my cassock.


Great jacket & trousers!

I was distracted the other day, by the turn down collars and (some) ties that the servers were wearing in church the other day, under their cassocks. I thought a tunic/ neckband shirt would look better, if not a clerical collar....

Leon


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

A&S at it's best very nice looking suit S thanks for posting i hope also you post you RA's too


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Thanks for the lovely photo, RSS, and it's good to see you posting more.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

RSS said:


> https://imageshack.us


Looks nice. Like that cloth. Lapels look great. Chest looks clean and smooth. It would be interesting to see the back shoulder seam.

I wonder if the button stance is to high.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Leon said:


> I thought a tunic/ neckband shirt would look better, if not a clerical collar....


I agree that those serving would look better were they to wear a white shirt having a tunic neckband. However, given that I serve in the capacity of verger (master of ceremonies in the Episcopal Church), I am of the laity. Members of the laity are discouraged from wearing any collar that might appear to be clerical.

Sadly, among those who are not familiar with church garb, it is easy to mistake a tunic neckband for a clerical collar. Why, the last time I wore one ... while ordering a beverage at a Starbucks, a customer mistook me for a Roman Catholic Priest. As I awaited my beverage, I was accused of every wrong done in the name of God.

My beverage finished, my accuser stops and says ... "So what do you say to that?" All I could think to say was, "Oh, were you talking to me?"


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Nice suit, Scott. It's really warming me up to the idea of windowpane DB's.  Re: the Starbucks episode, what a boor that guy was.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

RSS said:


> My beverage finished, my accuser stops and says ... "So what do you say to that?" All I could think to say was, "Oh, were you talking to me?"


I enjoy responding to such poorly behaved people with inappropriate latin ("cave canem," "tempora mortantur, nos et mortamur in illis," "dulce bellum inexpertis," and "parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus" are 4 favorites). It's fun on two levels: it doesn't make any sense in context, and it befuddles them.


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## fishball (Oct 2, 2007)

RSS,

You wear cassock and surplice with academic hood as a Master of Ceremonies, right?
I think a detechable collar will be the solution. When you wear your cassock/soutana, take off the tie and collar. After the service, wear the collar and tie again.
BTW, Verger = Master of Ceremonies? Are you talking Liturgical Master of Ceremonies? The guy standing behind the celebrant to instructs the ministers durning service?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Fishball,

Yes, I am referring to master of liturgical ceremony. However, in the Episcopal Church we do not typically stand behind the celebrant. Although I -- and most Vergers of the Episcopal Church -- will be aware of the celebrant's every word and action. Should the celebrant require assistance, it is my duty to see that it is received.

In my particular parish ... it is the Verger's responsibility to see that the liturgy continues on track ... thereby relieving the celebrant of this task. In this way the celebrant is left free to concentrate on things spiritual. If a participant (clergy or laity) in the service is absent, it is the Verger's responsibility to recruit a replacement. When a participant misses his/her cue, it is the Verger's responsibility to ensure that the service continues uninterrupted. If an liturgical item is discovered missing or element in short supply it is the Verger's responsibility to ensure that it is supplied in a manner that calls to the error as little attention as possible. In fact, it is the Verger's goal to make every action -- right or wrong -- appear as planned. All movements (at least those within view ... behind the scene, it's another matter) are slow, deliberate and as graceful as possible ... as we approach our tasks in a quiet, dignified and unobtrusive manner.

My seat during the service is located directly opposite the celebrant (most often the Rector), across the Chancel. This makes it quite easy for me to remain attentive should the celebrant require assistance. If the need arises, I am able to cross discreetly (via the ambulatory) to the opposite side to take direction. While communication between us goes both ways ... I am a servant ... I am the one who moves. However, over the years the current Rector and I have developed what we call our "baseball signals" as a way to communicate. It is rare that we do not recognize the intent of a signal.

As to vestments, I wear a cassock ... but I do not typically wear a surplice ... unless I step into a role requiring a surplice. As I can -- if the need arises -- step into any role performed by the laity ... I typically have a surplice and cotta somewhere nearby but out of view. And if the need does arise ... I can quietly step outside the door to the Chancel and perform a quick change.

In addition to a cassock, I am allowed the privilege of wearing a master's gown. As for the academic hood ... my degree and church policy allow it ... but I rarely wear it except on special occasion.

As for the role of Verger ... it varies from one location to another ... both within the Episcopal Church and in various parts of the Anglican Communion.

Below is an attempt to describe the role of verger in the Episcopal Church. I am very grateful to the The Verger's Guild of the Episcopal Church for much of the information.

*Defining the Role of a Verger*
*in*
*The Protestant Episcopal Church*
*in the United States of America*​
· *What is a Verger? *_A Verger is a committed lay minister within the Church who assists the clergy in the conduct of public worship services, especially in the marshaling of processions. As the highest ranking lay assistant to the clergy, the Verger typically performs a key role in the preparations for each service and liturgy in the Church. It may also be his/her responsibility to oversee the development of the liturgical customaries detailing the choreography of each service and even to make certain that all is conducted in conformity with the rubrics of The Book of Common Prayer, 1979, and the Canons of the Episcopal Church. _

_The Verger is -- or should be -- familiar with all parts of the parish facilities, ministries within the parish family, individuals available to assist with problems and needs, and the history and development of the church and its community._

_Vergers are appointed by, and serve at the pleasure of, the Rector of a Parish. Vergers can be full-time or part-time, paid or volunteer. Their duties can be purely ceremonial or include other responsibilities, such as parish administration, leadership of the worship committee, or even sexton. S/he can serve in many capacities throughout the church; i.e.: Verger, Chalice Bearer (Lay Eucharistic Minister or L.E.M.), Lay Reader, Usher, Protector of the Procession, Doorkeeper, Master of Ceremonies. _

_Since the early days of the church, Vergers have been commissioned to assist the Clergy and the Laity in the Divine Liturgy. The position of Verger developed in Medieval England where the Verger was "the protector of the procession." He led the Procession into the Church or Cathedral, clearing the way for the Procession and protecting it from vagabonds and animals that tried to attack it. Today, in many churches and cathedrals, you will still see a Verger ceremonially leading the Procession. S/he carries a Virge (staff of Office) pointing the way for the procession. In our time, the Verger is responsible for all things temporal regarding the orderly process of worship services and is generally trained to and able to carry out any duties of other lay persons involved in the service._

· *What do vergers wear?*_ The Verger's clothing -- or vestments -- can be as varied as the duties of the incumbent. The basic vestment of a Verger is a black cassock. In some places, especially cathedrals, the cassock may be of another color. Over the cassock (or street clothes), when performing a ceremonial function, the Verger may wear a academic or master's gown and even an academic hood representing the highest degree attained. Another type of Verger's gown is sleeveless and resembles a bishop's chimere. There are, however, no hard and fast rules about the shape and adornment of a Verger's gown._

· *What is a "virge"? *_The virge is the staff that a Verger carries in procession. The name comes from the Latin "virga" which simply means a rod or staff; hence, a Verger is one who carries a staff. The virge can trace its history back to the ceremonial maces carried before civic and ecclesiastical dignitaries. The Maces of State used in the House of Lords and the House of Commons of the British Parliament are examples of another modern use of the medieval symbols. Originally a weapon used to clear the way for processions (and control unruly choristers!), its use is now principally honorific. Again, the size and shape of a virge varies from place to place; but one end has a cross or other Christian symbol mounted on it. A longer variation of the virge is called the "beadle", originally used to lead academic processions._

_The verge is held by its wood or metal base, in the right hand which is closed to make a fist. The position of the verge is used to communicate required actions of a person or persons. When the Verger moves alone, the verge is tilted back over the shoulder in what is known as the verge-off position. When the Verger reaches the seat of a person who is to follow in procession, the Verger turns to face the person being collected. The person rises and a bow is exchanged. The Verger then turns in the direction of travel and tilts the verge forward, as an extension of the arm. This is known as the "verge-on" position and is a signal that the Verger is to be followed. When the desired destination is reached, the Verger returns the verge over his shoulder in the "off" position. He then steps aside, allowing the one verged to move into place and perform the required task. While the task is being performed, the Verger remains still and cradles the verge in his free arm at "verge-rest" position. While at verge-rest, the free hand is positioned to conceal the hand grasping the verge. _

_When the required task has been completed, the Verger turns in the direction of travel, places the verge in its "on" position and returns the person to his/her seat. Prior to sitting and while facing one another, a bow is exchanged once again. The Verger then returns to a Chancel seat while carrying the verge in the "off" position. _

_Those verged included the Choir (prior to the service and sometimes following when not part of the procession); the Old and New Testament Lectors; the Gospel Procession; Candidates (and family) for Baptism; Candidates for Confirmation, Reception, and Reaffirmation; the Presenter/s of the Oblations (Communion Elements); and the Presenter/s of the Alms Basins. On special occasions calling for more intricate processions, the Verger may lead the Procession of vested Clergy, LEMs, Acolytes and Choir into and out of the church. _

_It should be noted that the Verger is to refrain from making eye contact with all except the one being verged. If leading a group the Verger makes eye contact with the leader only. _

*Of course, I don't wish to get this tread banned to the Interchange. *
*If you wish to discuss this further just send me a PM and I'll be glad to create a thread in the Interchange ... and copy this post there.*​


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## The_Foxx (Dec 21, 2003)

wow. can we get more photos of this excellent suit?



RSS said:


> Some time ago I promised to come back and post a photograph.
> 
> I will certainly try to get a better photo or two to add some time this fall... perhaps a full-length straight on and another that is more of a profile.
> 
> ...


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