# Ring around the Collar



## Break (Jun 17, 2005)

Any suggestions how to prevent and/or clean? Interestingly, for higher end shirts, I often get dark collar stains after only a few wears. For these shirts, after about 12-24 months they are unwearable. More specifically, I've had problems with Paris and Borelli shirts, but, for some reason, not Geneva or T&A or Brooks Brothers, for example. I know they're similar (and at times the same) materials, so I'm at a loss. Also, not all Paris and Borelli shirts have been a problem, so I doubt it's the construction. Thanks. And, btw, I like all the above (some more than others) so I'm not intending to "bash" anyone.


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## DorianGrey (Jul 6, 2007)

Do you wear a t-shirt under your dress shirts?


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

Before I began washing my shirts myself, this was happening to me. It never got to the point they were unwearable. The problem was if I didn't point it out to my dry cleaners, they wouldn't take care of it on their own. Now that I was my shirts, I just check the shirt before it goes in the wash and if there is some staining I pre-treat it and the problem is gone. I suggest washing your shirt yourself and or be more vigilant about pointing it out early to your cleaners.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*Most problems of this kind....*

can be traced to how you launder your shirts. Do you send them to a laundry? Most laundries do not pre-soak or use a pre-wash stain remover. Also, never wear a dress shirt more than once. If you are going out in the evening, change your shirt that you wore for business that day. If you wash your own shirts, use a spray-on stain remover and a soft brush to remove stains. Be careful with the brush, especially if the shirt is a twill. After the stain remover, your shirts may require soaking in warm soapy water to get all the dirt out. Read the instructions given by Kabbaz on washing shirts before proceeding.


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

Also, another source of problems can be hair products on your neck. Conditioning shampoos and conditioners that you put on in the shower and rinse off are the worst offenders. Some of them don't rinse completely off just by standing under the shower head - they have to be actively rinsed from your neck with your hands.


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

Do you mean by 'dark collar stains' there is a marked grubbines on the outside of the collar, especially at the back ?

If that is what you mean, I realised one of my winter car coats, with a faux suede collar inflicted a lot of black grimey marks on shirt collars, apart from wearing the coat less I now soak the collar in the hand basin for about five minutes before applying a little washing - up liquid* to the affected area and scrubbing with a nail brush, then it goes to the washing machine, perfect results.
Hope my post is relevant, apologies if not.

*I should add that I use 'reduced chemicals' liquid.:icon_smile:


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Break:

In *The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes* is a chapter on clothes care and another on specific stain removal.


_*Shirt Collar*: Use hair shampoo to pre-treat stains from body oil ("ring around the collar"). _

_The "dirt" on your shirt collar after a long day isn't really dirt! It's not that you don't have a clean neck! On your collar is a collection of melanin pigment from shed skin cells, since the shirt collar is the area that has rubbed off the most skin cells._​


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

Since "ring around the collar" is formed from the oils in the neck and hair follicles and glands in that anatomical area, it can be decreased by applying powder around your neck prior to putting your shirt on in the morning. The powder helps absorb these oils. I've tried this simple fix and it's worked well.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

You can also take a toothbrush and rub some detergent into the collar, even if you don't see a ring, you should do it - it works for me.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

I wash my own shirts and pre-soak the collar with products like Shout, Spray 'n' Wash, or Oxyclean. I rub these products in and let them work for a few minutes before washing the shirt. This regimen seems to solve the problem. Another factor here would be the number of times you wear your shirts between washings. I guess the right frequency would depend to some extent on how profusely a person sweats over the course of a day. I find that I can get two wearings out of my best dress shirts before needing to wash them, with a very light touch-up with an iron between the two wearings (we're not talking about ironing-in dirt here). On the other hand, if one were to wear a light-colored shirt many times before washing, the 'ring around the collar' might get pretty resistant to removal.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Ring around the collar is not dirt from your body. It is airborne particulate, more prevalent in cities than rural areas, which settles between your neck and your collar. The day-long twisting motion of your neck grinds the particulate into your collar band.

You will find this to be worse with twills, oxfords, and basket weaves than with smoother cloths such as broadcloth and poplin.

Follow the instructions and it should be no problem. It *will* be a problem if you iron the dirt.

All the esoteric notions above aside, the best cure is Octagon soap left standing overnight. You can even do this treatment if you are planning to send the shirts out. Just leave the Octagon in the shirt when it goes off to the torture chamber.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

Although it may be plausible that airborne particulate matter contributes to "ring around the collar", I will respectfully disagree that body oils do not also play a contributing roll in the development of this problem. I don't believe that it's from lack of hygiene or "dirt" per se, but I do believe that natural body oils do contribute to the problem.

We can certainly agree to disagree!


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## s4usea (Jul 10, 2007)

First off, everyone's different, and it can very due to age, diet, lifestyle, and genes so what works for some members here won't work for all of them.

That said, I'd go with what Andy said for a start. My two cents would be that the only thing that I've found to work consistently wrell is "Stain Devils" which I get on line. They have several application-specific products, and for collar rings I use the "dirt, grease and oil" formula.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

DocD said:


> Although it may be plausible that airborne particulate matter contributes to "ring around the collar", I will respectfully disagree that body oils do not also play a contributing roll in the development of this problem. I don't believe that it's from lack of hygiene or "dirt" per se, but I do believe that natural body oils do contribute to the problem.
> 
> We can certainly agree to disagree!


I'm not disagreeing with you, Doc. However, body oils are not black. The body oils contribute to the adherence of the dirt but are not of themselves dirt. The dirt is airborne particulate ... mostly soot.

The subject has, believe it or not, been studied. When a barber's paper (the kind they wrap around your neck and over your collar to keep the hairs from dropping in) was wrapped around the neck above the collar, and the shirt was worn for an entire day, there was consistently no ring. The control group without the paper consistently had ring.

And then, FYI, there was the study (AMA, I think) cited in Forbes in 1991. 70% of American men wear their collars too tight and restrict the blood flow in the carotid artery. That merely causes headaches, brain cell loss, and other things minor in comparison to something as important as ring-around-the-collar. But of major significance derived from this study is that the too-tight collar does contribute to the pressure of the twisting neck which is rubbing in that darn ring!


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

What do you do if there is still a faint ring but the shirt has already been ironed? White collar, so I suppose some sort of spot treatment of bleach might be possible?


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

Alexander,

Have you ever considered lining your bespoke shirt collars with Teflon?:icon_smile_big: I guess using powder on my neck simply prevented the dirt that entered from actually appearing on the collar.

You are correct, many men do wear their collars too tight and it contributes to other conditions that are often overlooked, but few as noticeable as the dreaded ring around the collar!


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## JD to you (Oct 14, 2007)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, Doc. However, body oils are not black. The body oils contribute to the adherence of the dirt but are not of themselves dirt. The dirt is airborne particulate ... mostly soot.
> 
> The subject has, believe it or not, been studied. When a barber's paper (the kind they wrap around your neck and over your collar to keep the hairs from dropping in) was wrapped around the neck above the collar, and the shirt was worn for an entire day, there was consistently no ring. The control group without the paper consistently had ring.
> 
> And then, FYI, there was the study (AMA, I think) cited in Forbes in 1991. 70% of American men wear their collars too tight and restrict the blood flow in the carotid artery. That merely causes headaches, brain cell loss, and other things minor in comparison to something as important as ring-around-the-collar. But of major significance derived from this study is that the too-tight collar does contribute to the pressure of the twisting neck which is rubbing in that darn ring!


So...what is the correct collar size? If my neck measures 16" what neck size is appropriate?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

DocD said:


> Alexander,
> 
> Have you ever considered lining your bespoke shirt collars with Teflon?:icon_smile_big: I guess using powder on my neck simply prevented the dirt that entered from actually appearing on the collar.
> 
> You are correct, many men do wear their collars too tight and it contributes to other conditions that are often overlooked, but few as noticeable as the dreaded ring around the collar!


 We haven't used Teflon since John Gotti went away for the last time.



JD to you said:


> So...what is the correct collar size? If my neck measures 16" what neck size is appropriate?


 If the skin measurement is 16" you want to end up with your shrunk collar size no less than 16 1/4". 16 1/2" would be better. That is not so large that gapping will show. Remember, if you're used to too-tight collars, don't recreate the condition by cinching your tie too tight. You should be able to slip two fingers into your collar at the back without crushing your Adam's apple. (Fingers next to each other)



marlinspike said:


> What do you do if there is still a faint ring but the shirt has already been ironed? White collar, so I suppose some sort of spot treatment of bleach might be possible?


 Use the Octagon (it has boron bleach). Just let it soak longer. Rub it in with a toothbrush.

Chlorine bleach (Clorox) left to soak will remove the white dye and turn your shirt grey.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Is Boron bleach color safe (so that I never have to buy Shout again. Shout gets the rings the first time, but if you forgot to Shout and then ironed the shirt it can't get it out)?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Boron bleach is color safe on cottons.


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## JD to you (Oct 14, 2007)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> If the skin measurement is 16" you want to end up with your shrunk collar size no less than 16 1/4". 16 1/2" would be better. That is not so large that gapping will show. Remember, if you're used to too-tight collars, don't recreate the condition by cinching your tie too tight. You should be able to slip two fingers into your collar at the back without crushing your Adam's apple. (Fingers next to each other)


Would buying the larger size apply even if I'm washing my shirts in cold water and line drying or ironing when damp? With that type of care/laundering, would there be that much collar shrinkage?


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## DelsFan (Jan 3, 2008)

For years I've used Goop for white collars and other stains; it is easy to apply, works 99% of the time on any stain I try it on, and virtually cannot harm fabrics:



Now I see they have a slightly different formula tailored for stains:




Many years ago I was using Herbal Essence shampoo (or some other similar brand) when my hairdresser told me about all the waxes, etc. that were in the cheaper shampoos. He steered me to the Rusk Deepshine (I use the Sea Kelp one), and I've never looked back. Every time I (move cities/countries) and must go to a new hairdresser they tell me how nice my hair is - no wax build-up I guess... With this shampoo I never use a conditioner.



$12.95 per small bottle, but I've always found the 1 litre bottles for $20 or less, plus shipping.


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## SilkCity (Apr 3, 2004)

Break said:


> Any suggestions how to prevent and/or clean? Interestingly, for higher end shirts, I often get dark collar stains after only a few wears. For these shirts, after about 12-24 months they are unwearable. More specifically, I've had problems with Paris and Borelli shirts, but, for some reason, not Geneva or T&A or Brooks Brothers, for example. I know they're similar (and at times the same) materials, so I'm at a loss. Also, not all Paris and Borelli shirts have been a problem, so I doubt it's the construction. Thanks. And, btw, I like all the above (some more than others) so I'm not intending to "bash" anyone.


Refer to the thread on contrast (white) collar shirts.


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## encyclopedia (Jan 3, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Boron bleach is color safe on cottons.


What should I use for silk? I hand wash, but don't want the collar getting discolored.


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## brioni007 (Dec 3, 2007)

*Thank you for the info*

I have been dealing with this situation for many years, I will give your method a shot. I wash my own shirts because dry cleaners tend to butcher the fabric. I would love to try your shirts. We have been round about on a few issues but you do know your stuff, so I like to work with people who have knowledge and experience. 


Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Ring around the collar is not dirt from your body. It is airborne particulate, more prevalent in cities than rural areas, which settles between your neck and your collar. The day-long twisting motion of your neck grinds the particulate into your collar band.
> 
> You will find this to be worse with twills, oxfords, and basket weaves than with smoother cloths such as broadcloth and poplin.
> 
> ...


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

JD to you said:


> Would buying the larger size apply even if I'm washing my shirts in cold water and line drying or ironing when damp? With that type of care/laundering, would there be that much collar shrinkage?


 Cotton wants to achieve a certain state of stability. Eventually it will shrink to that state whether you have vestal virgins or the world's worst laundry washing it. Best to wash it warm once or twice and get it to the final stage.



encyclopedia said:


> What should I use for silk? I hand wash, but don't want the collar getting discolored.


 That depends upon whether the silk was meant to be washed. If it was, follow the makers care instructions. If not, dry clean it.



brioni007 said:


> I have been dealing with this situation for many years, I will give your method a shot. I wash my own shirts because dry cleaners tend to butcher the fabric. I would love to try your shirts. We have been round about on a few issues but you do know your stuff, so I like to work with people who have knowledge and experience.


 Round about's good.  Shows there is still life on planet Earth.

For the rest, thank you kindly.


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## JCV (Nov 2, 2008)

dfloyd said:


> Also, never wear a dress shirt more than once. If you are going out in the evening, change your shirt that you wore for business that day.


That is a good idea, but I found out that a steam washer can do that too. But, those are only front loaders. Technology has changed hasn't it? I usually keep the same shirt on when I come home until night time, and I'll keep the shirt tucked in still no matter what... and then if I ever go out for dinner that evening, I'll just keep it on. UNLESS the shirt has a coffee stain or some dirt stain.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I treat my collars with Spray N Wash before laundering, works just fine.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*+1*

for Spray N Wash. Whether or not there is much environmental dirt that adheres to the oils (and other chemical extrusions that naturally deposit on a collar), the mere presence of oil in fabric changes the apparent color due to a different light absorption index. Whatever you do, don't iron any spot or stain into a shirt. That may "set" it forever and make it impervious to even drastic spotting chemicals applied by your local cleaners.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

I've had great success with a variety of stain removers (spray and wash, bleach and oxyclean) combined with an overnight soak.

Will take Mr. Kabbaz's advice on bleach though (is non-clorine clorox boron bleach then?)

Will probably avoid his advice on wearing a looser shirt collar (because I don't want to have to replace a whole wardrobe of shirts).


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## MOET49 (Dec 8, 2008)

*collar ring*

This tip from a retired brooks Broters salesman: Gonzo spray(I found it at ed , bath and Beyond). Spray it on let it dry, launder(or take to laundry). It works for him and for me. A wkk ago the dermtologist had to do a wee cut and blood seeped through the bandage. The cut was 10 am and I did not detenct it until 6 pm. On ent the Gonzo and the next day the spot was gone


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