# Backward Baseball Cap in Restaurant



## oxford (Feb 24, 2008)

I was at the most exclusive upscale Steakhouse in my area this evening where the meals average 35.00 and up plus extra for sides and of course drinks. Had reservations and was seated next to a young man in mid 20s and his wife or she may have been a girlfriend. He was wearing a backwards baseball style hat with the visor purposely worn backwards, jeans with tears in the knees, a tee shirt advertising a local sports bar and sneaks. In my opinion I felt this attire was most inappropriate for this type of establishment and if I am paying these upscale prices should I have to be seated next to this type of individual. I realize he may be very affluent and perhaps a practicing attorney or medical professional, etc., etc. Anyone else share my frustration or am I too particular or too Trad. I was wearing a J. Press Navy Blazer with charcoal gabardines, a blue stripe oxford cloth button down and a Ben Silver Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie, argyle Byford socks and Alden Tassel Loafers. My Lady Friend was also well presented with Talbot Clothing. Any Comments?


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## frosejr (Mar 27, 2010)

I recently joined a private club with dress code for just this reason. Call me a snob if you will. I don't care. It's my money, and I choose to spend it places that want to create or maintain a special environment for me and my friends & family. If any slob with a credit card and a pulse can walk in, then any slob will walk in.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

oxford said:


> Anyone else share my frustration or am I too particular or too Trad. I was wearing a J. Press Navy Blazer with charcoal gabardines, a blue stripe oxford cloth button down and a Ben Silver Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie, argyle Byford socks and Alden Tassel Loafers. My Lady Friend was also well presented with Talbot Clothing. Any Comments?


Pardon me for saying this, but it seems a rather snobbish reaction to someone who chooses not to dress in a manner you prefer. While I agree that there plenty of men (young and old) who could raise the bar on their appearance, it begs the question: do you dine at this Steakhouse for the food or the clientele? If it's too hard to ignore patrons like this person wearing the baseball cap backwards, and if they ruin the enjoyment of your meal, then perhaps take frosejr's advice and dine at a restaurant with a dress code.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

gamma68 said:


> Pardon me for saying this, but it seems a rather snobbish reaction to someone who chooses not to dress in a manner you prefer. While I agree that there plenty of men (young and old) who could raise the bar on their appearance, it begs the question: do you dine at this Steakhouse for the food or the clientele? If it's too hard to ignore patrons like this person wearing the baseball cap backwards, and if they ruin the enjoyment of your meal, then perhaps take frosejr's advice and dine at a restaurant with a dress code.


^^^ Agree completely.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

smmrfld said:


> ^^^ Agree completely.


I disagree completely. Choosing a restaurant for either food or clientele is a false dichotomy. You could elect to choose a restaurant for both.

I'm with Oxford, if I pay that much for dinner, I don't want to be next to some douche with a Tapout shirt. Which is worse: the general decline of manners to the point where someone thinks that is reasonable attire to dine-out in or the restaurant which refuses to enforce a mild dress code for an upscale setting?


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Trad-ish said:


> I disagree completely. Choosing a restaurant for either food or clientele is a false dichotomy. You could elect to choose a restaurant for both.
> 
> I'm with Oxford, if I pay that much for dinner, I don't want to be next to some douche with a Tapout shirt. Which is worse: the general decline of manners to the point where someone thinks that is reasonable attire to dine-out in or the restaurant which refuses to enforce a mild dress code for an upscale setting?


Everyone these days is so terrified of sounding like a snob. I think a little snobbery would be good for this country. If nobody complains, nothing will ever change.

I was pleasantly surprised to find a restaurant with a dress code last night. Unfortunately, I was in Atlantic City for a bachelor party with three of my friends. We went to have dinner at a cuban restaurant in our hotel/casino, but the hostess turned away my friends, who were wearing t-shirts, jeans and sneakers. She indicated that I, however, was welcome to dine there, as I was dressed appropriately in a blazer, khakis, ocbd and penny loafers.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Perhaps Oxford, Trad-ish and L-feld should form their own supper club and dine together?


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

I would cut the conspirators (management and 'douche' patron) some slack in this instance. Bangor is not much larger than a Jersey truck stop and there isn't much of a surrounding population to draw from if your exclude the citizenry who wear antlers naturally. To survive in such a community I doubt a fine restaurant could be selective about their patrons' dress, and a patron who likes fine food but not fine dining probably couldn't find a more casual but still higher end eatery.

In a larger city or area with affluence (which Bangor is decidedly not) one can choose fine dining in a more formal atmosphere or more casual one, allowing you to spend you money accordingly and support whomever you wish, perhaps both, as circumstances suggest. In a smaller town your menswear store might sell both AE shoes and Rockports, and their Samuelsohn suits will be sold alongside their $130 suits. Their clientele will reflect that and you may be there at the same time as the lumber jack buying a suit for his kid's wedding. This is the only way for the proprietor to survive. The store where they offer me martinis and crostini as I browse exist elsewhere.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

So, blairrob, your sigline does not apply in Bangor?


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Trad-ish said:


> So, blairrob, your sigline does not apply in Bangor?


Oh wow, that's just nasty, and I heartily applaud it.

However, I would still the hold the line and dress as I normally do. My expectation would not be the same for everyone else.

I am well aware that many of my tastes, interests, and philosophy are shared by a rather small minority of North Americans but I am quite OK with that. My best friend of many years is an engineer who manages production for a manufacturing company and fits the stereotypical mechanical engineering 'type'; he really dislikes dressing up, classical music, and philosophical literature, and yet I love him to death. Even more oddly, he seems to appreciate me. Funny world.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

L-feld said:


> Everyone these days is so terrified of sounding like a snob. I think a little snobbery would be good for this country. If nobody complains, nothing will ever change.
> 
> I was pleasantly surprised to find a restaurant with a dress code last night. Unfortunately, I was in Atlantic City for a bachelor party with three of my friends. We went to have dinner at a cuban restaurant in our hotel/casino, but the hostess turned away my friends, who were wearing t-shirts, jeans and sneakers. She indicated that I, however, was welcome to dine there, as I was dressed appropriately in a blazer, khakis, ocbd and penny loafers.


:icon_cheers:


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

blairrob said:


> Oh wow, that's just nasty, and I heartily applaud it.
> 
> However, I would still the hold the line and dress as I normally do. My expectation would not be the same for everyone else.
> 
> I am well aware that many of my tastes, interests, and philosophy are shared by a rather small minority of North Americans but I am quite OK with that. My best friend of many years is an engineer who manages production for a manufacturing company and fits the stereotypical mechanical engineering 'type'; he really dislikes dressing up, classical music, and philosophical literature, and yet I love him to death. Even more oddly, he seems to appreciate me. Funny world.


In all fairness, I wasn't going to bust your hump until I saw your sigline. It was just too easy.:icon_smile_wink:

Also, I have to admit I did not know Bangor was THAT small until I googled it just now. 33,000 people? That's all?!


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

L-feld said:


> If nobody complains, nothing will ever change.


All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If you did not make him aware of his transgression, you are guilty of tolerance and complicit in this sin. Did you walk over and politely inform him that he'd forgotten to take his hat off? These chemo patients think they can just cover their bald heads all day long and they need to be told otherwise.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

L-feld said:


> If nobody complains, nothing will ever change.


There are enough whiney little people in the world with way too much power.

I couldn't care less about how someone else dresses. If they dress well, I can appreciate it. If they do not, I look all the better. If I don't like something (other than what I explicitly paid for) about a place, I don't go back.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

I live in New York City - a city of over eight million people - and people often dress like bums, even in the finer restaurants, where permitted. Most _do _permit this, and I believe it's recognition of the fact that since so many people now dress like slobs, a business that turns the slobs away will severely hurt their bottom line.

What stuns me is the older generation; rather than setting the example for younger folks, they have acquiesced to the slovenly zeitgeist of the times and they too dress like bums. Caps, t-shirts, jeans, sneakers, jogging suits, sweatshirts, et al. are worn even in fine - and very expensive - restaurants.

Look around you - this isn't just happening at restaurants in small towns by young people. It's everywhere, and it's because most Americans now dress and behave like immature and crude teenagers. Our culture has slowly eroded to the point where we're a notch above Neanderthals...


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## blacksby (Jan 17, 2013)

It seems to me that this establishment was not as "exclusive" as thought. It's on them, they let him in with that attire.
All that being said, we never know what someone else is going through, what is happening in their lives or what any reason could be for what they're wearing or how they are acting. This guy could've just flown in from LA, had his luggage lost and was taking out his girlfriend for a dinner before her dad's funeral...so, sometimes you might want to just let it go, enjoy dinner and send that table a drink.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Tiger said:


> I live in New York City - a city of over eight million people - and people often dress like bums, even in the finer restaurants, where permitted. Most _do _permit this, and I believe it's recognition of the fact that since so many people now dress like slobs, a business that turns the slobs away will severely hurt their bottom line.
> 
> What stuns me is the older generation; rather than setting the example for younger folks, they have acquiesced to the slovenly zeitgeist of the times and they too dress like bums. Caps, t-shirts, jeans, sneakers, jogging suits, sweatshirts, et al. are worn even in fine - and very expensive - restaurants.
> 
> Look around you - this isn't just happening at restaurants in small towns by young people. It's everywhere, and it's because most Americans now dress and behave like immature and crude teenagers. Our culture has slowly eroded to the point where we're a notch above Neanderthals...


I agree with much here. My university town is a popular retirement destination for what I can call those in Upper Mid to Upper financial circumstances. At both ends of the age range, people dress like slobs. This is more true of men than women.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Trad-ish said:


> I disagree completely. Choosing a restaurant for either food or clientele is a false dichotomy. You could elect to choose a restaurant for both.
> 
> I'm with Oxford, if I pay that much for dinner, I don't want to be next to some douche with a Tapout shirt. Which is worse: the general decline of manners to the point where someone thinks that is reasonable attire to dine-out in or the restaurant which refuses to enforce a mild dress code for an upscale setting?


Personally I find the use of a term , normally used to describe a feminine hygiene product/process, as a reference to a poorly dressed restaurant patron to be more objectionable than the patron wearing the ball cap, t-shirt and jeans. However, just as I prefer people would communicate at a more appropriate level, I also wish patrons would dress properly and leave their precious I-phones in the car or at home when they dine at a fine restaurant! Bottom line: I doubt any of my three sensitivities are going to be acknowledged or honored, so the wife and I will just go to that fine restaurant, focus on ourselves and enjoy the food!


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## duckbill (Jul 15, 2008)

oxford said:


> I was wearing a J. Press Navy Blazer with charcoal gabardines, a blue stripe oxford cloth button down and a Ben Silver *Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie*, argyle Byford socks and Alden Tassel Loafers. My Lady Friend was also well presented with Talbot Clothing. Any Comments?


Are you a member of the Royal Yacht Club?


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## oxford (Feb 24, 2008)

The Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie from Ben Silver is one of hundreds from their offerings of Regimental Stripes. Interesting in a Trad Forum you would even make such a statement, it just shows the Trad Forum is frequented by anyone that has a computer and desires to make this type of comment. Word and mind games do reign in this forum. No I do not belong to the Royal Yacht Club but the tie is one of thirty six Regimental Stripes I own from Ben Silver. As a Trad what are your favorite Regimentals?


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

oxford said:


> The Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie from Ben Silver is one of hundreds from their offerings of Regimental Stripes. Interesting in a Trad Forum you would even make such a statement, it just shows the Trad Forum is frequented by anyone that has a computer and desires to make this type of comment. Word and mind games do reign in this forum. No I do not belong to the Royal Yacht Club but the tie is one of thirty six Regimental Stripes I own from Ben Silver. As a Trad what are your favorite Regimentals?


Dude, you really need to get over yourself. Something tells me the "well-presented" friend had to submit her wardrobe for approval prior to the date.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

blacksby said:


> It seems to me that this establishment was not as "exclusive" as thought. It's on them, they let him in with that attire.
> All that being said, we never know what someone else is going through, what is happening in their lives or what any reason could be for what they're wearing or how they are acting. This guy could've just flown in from LA, had his luggage lost and was taking out his girlfriend for a dinner before her dad's funeral...so, sometimes you might want to just let it go, enjoy dinner and send that table a drink.


Again, most establishments don't have the luxury of turning away poorly dressed patrons; with so many Americans poorly dressed, it would imperil their business.

As to your other point(s), while there could be extenuating circumstances, the vast majority of poorly-dressed people do so because they simply don't care how they look, have no respect for others (or themselves), or actually believe that they're dressed appropriately, since most people seem to do the same thing! (Dressing like a slob is now the cultural norm, it seems.)

In any event, I won't be buying drinks any time soon for anyone who believes that the same attire used for washing the car and tossing baseballs at the local park is perfectly acceptable to wear to a fine restaurant (or church, or social function, etc.).


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

If a man wants to go through life presenting himself to others like that, it's his problem.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

LordSmoke said:


> There are enough whiney little people in the world with way too much power.
> 
> I couldn't care less about how someone else dresses. If they dress well, I can appreciate it. If they do not, I look all the better. If I don't like something (other than what I explicitly paid for) about a place, I don't go back.


Well, I suppose I will just keep my opinions to myself so we can all live in a joyous world of bland tolerance, where only the whiney large people have a say in anything.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

> Personally I find . . .


Well said, Mr. Eagle.

PS. I find it interesting that Bangor is such a well-known place, now that I have learned how small it is.

Is it used as a point of reference as our most NE town? Or is it famous as a fishing/lobstering/etc port? But no, a cursory reading of Wikipedia reveals these are not the case.

Perhaps another reason for its renown:



> The city was particularly active in shipping building lumber to California during the Gold Rush, via Cape Horn, before sawmills could be established in northern California, Oregon, and Washington. Bangorians subsequently helped transplant the Maine culture of lumbering to the Pacific Northwest, and participated directly in the Gold Rush themselves. Bangor, Washington; Bangor, California; and Little Bangor, Nevada are legacies of this contact.[SUP][16][/SUP] Sailors and loggers gave the city a widespread reputation for roughness; their stomping grounds were known as the "Devil's Half Acre".[





> Bangor was a center of anti-slavery politics in the years before the American Civil War, partly due to the influence of the Bangor Theological Seminary.


Perhaps our resident Bangorian could shed more light on this.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

smmrfld said:


> Dude, you really need to get over yourself. Something tells me the "well-presented" friend had to submit her wardrobe for approval prior to the date.


My thoughts, exactly! I also hope her hair was done "just so," so as to not offend.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

L-feld said:


> Well, I suppose I will just keep my opinions to myself so we can all live in a joyous world of bland tolerance, where only the whiney large people have a say in anything.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


I suppose part of being a gentleman is learning to accept or ignore the transgressions and failures of others, unless they cause you personal harm. In this case, it seems the diner with the baseball cap was only doing harm to himself by dressing poorly.

The original post smacks of someone who becomes offended during a walk in a beautiful park on a sunny day because he is surrounded by the "unwashed masses." Just enjoy your walk, the park and your "well-presented" friend.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

"upscale Steakhouse"? Isn't that an oxymoron?


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Would it be nice if people dressed better? Sure, I guess.

I do think some folks don't dress well because they think dressing well is for snobs. I'd just as soon prove them wrong.

That said, if I ran a restaurant, it would have a dress code.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

So, up to now, we have:

1) People annoyed with the depressing state of men's manners what it comes to dressing appropriately
2) People annoyed at the first group for pointing out their annoyance
3) People annoyed with me for using the term "douche"
4) People surprised at how small Bangor is

Did I miss anything? 

I hope it doesn't rain as we may all drown.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Trad-ish said:


> So, up to now, we have:
> 
> 1) People annoyed with the depressing state of men's manners what it comes to dressing appropriately
> 2) People annoyed at the first group for pointing out their annoyance
> ...


I, for one, am annoyed at Bangor for being so small. :icon_viking:


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

5) People surprised that a steakhouse where meals can be had for $35 is considered "upscale".


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## AncientMadder (Apr 21, 2011)

6) "Get off my lawn"


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## Chevo (Jan 3, 2013)

It would have been difficult to hold my tongue and not make a remark. I understand the argument that a smaller population can, on most occasions, dictate policy concerning attire. However, I wonder if that young gentleman understood his inappropriate appearance? He may not know any better. I wonder if he felt uncomfortable because many around him were dressed in proper attire?


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Himself said:


> If a man wants to go through life presenting himself to others like that, it's his problem.


...except when it impinges on other people. How about if the guy was shirtless? Wearing a tank top and hadn't showered in a week? Shoeless? Wearing a g-string? You get the point, I trust.

There's a time and a place for everything. People are free to be as disgusting as they please, until it affects others. Attire, musical tastes, personal habits, et al. are all things that can be offensive, which is why decent people are respectful to others and maintain a sense of decorum.

Ironically, it's the slobs who would be quick to ridicule a guy who showed up for a very casual event in a blazer and tie...


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## BrianPaul (Jun 12, 2009)

Belfaborac said:


> 5) People surprised that a steakhouse where meals can be had for $35 is considered "upscale".


Thank you. Thirty-five dollar entrees on an a la carte menu, while more expensive than the restaurants I frequent, barely approaches upscale. My first thought was the offending patron could have been "slumming" it.


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## oxford (Feb 24, 2008)

Thanks for all your responses Gentleman. The tide of opinion appears to be split down the middle with many feeling I am a snob and many agreeing that I am not a snob. I was not prepared for the City of Bangor to come under attack but oh well so be it. Also, my Lady friend did not have to be told how to present herself since she is in management of a bank and presents herself quite well on a daily basis, she also shops at Talbots in Bangor. I guess anything goes these days as being what is and what is not appropriate, no boundaries, even in the Trad Forum.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

BrianPaul said:


> Thank you. Thirty-five dollar entrees on an a la carte menu, while more expensive than the restaurants I frequent, barely approaches upscale. My first thought was the offending patron could have been "slumming" it.


Something to consider, coming from a New Yorker who has eaten at many of our fine restaurants: A "barely upscale" restaurant, as you put it, with $35 entrees will have $20 appetizers, and $10 desserts. Add a decent bottle of wine, tax, and tip, and the bill will exceed $250 for two people. "Barely upscale"? Are you sure?

Check the menus (on-line or Zagat's will suffice) of some of New York's best restaurants. Outside of the truly stratospheric ones, most will have entrees at the $35 threshold. They are indeed upscale - no "barely" qualifiers needed!


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## AnthonyFuller (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm used to dressing well when going out to dinner. At least, relatively speaking compared to the average diner. Just because, I decided to wear a suit to the store today. But I am in the minority as not a single person I saw today was dressed up even slightly (a bit odd, considering it was Sunday and many would be coming from church.) And while I can't speak to Bangor, here in Portland (Oregon, not Maine) I find it rare for anyone to dress well. Too many hipsters and those that spend time dressing down to make it appear they don't care when they really do. 

In any event, don't lose sleep over this. I learned from my grandfather not to wear a hat in a restaurant when very young. However, I also learned that how another presents themselves is none of my business as long as it isn't infringing on my rights. 

The polite thing to do in this case would be to stay quiet, and them politely tell the manager or maitre'd upon seating that you would prefer another seat, or if that party was seated after you to let the restaurant know after the meal was over. 

Confronting the subject (unless you are a big guy) is not recommended. A coworker of mine went out to a nice restaurant for his birthday and someone else stole the reservation they had. When confronted, the thief berated by coworker and threatened to kick his you know what outside. Just be aware that not all people react kindly to criticism etc...

I'm typically sensitive to this from another perspective in which I dress nice but may have my ill behaved children with me and do not want to ruin the dinner of another patron. Some people refuse to eat next to a table of children, regardless of the quality of a restaurant. I don't, and wouldn't take kindly to someone making a comment to me about my kids, but to each their own.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

BrianPaul said:


> Thank you. Thirty-five dollar entrees on an a la carte menu, while more expensive than the restaurants I frequent, barely approaches upscale. My first thought was the offending patron could have been "slumming" it.





Tiger said:


> Something to consider, coming from a New Yorker who has eaten at many of our fine restaurants: A "barely upscale" restaurant, as you put it, with $35 entrees will have $20 appetizers, and $10 desserts. Add a decent bottle of wine, tax, and tip, and the bill will exceed $250 for two people. "Barely upscale"? Are you sure?
> 
> Check the menus (on-line or Zagat's will suffice) of some of New York's best restaurants. Outside of the truly stratospheric ones, most will have entrees at the $35 threshold. They are indeed upscale - no "barely" qualifiers needed!


I would also add that like the price of real estate the cost of an identical meal and service in Bangor or Saint John (my town of birth) would be vastly lower than that of Fort Worth or New York because of the variance in staff costs, premises costs, etc..

As to Bangor itself, a town I have been to or through at least 50 times, I can say it owns some lovely leafy streets sporting gorgeous 19th century homes, straddling both sides of a lovely river, and when there I have yet to talk to a Bangorite (?) who was not friendly in the best of ways. They also know how to make a great canoe.

Great thread, keep it up!


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## BrianPaul (Jun 12, 2009)

Tiger said:


> Something to consider, coming from a New Yorker who has eaten at many of our fine restaurants: A "barely upscale" restaurant, as you put it, with $35 entrees will have $20 appetizers, and $10 desserts. Add a decent bottle of wine, tax, and tip, and the bill will exceed $250 for two people. "Barely upscale"? Are you sure?
> 
> Check the menus (on-line or Zagat's will suffice) of some of New York's best restaurants. Outside of the truly stratospheric ones, most will have entrees at the $35 threshold. They are indeed upscale - no "barely" qualifiers needed!


Point well taken. It depends on where you are, I suppose, since the price of sides, desserts, drinks, and appetizers appear to be sensitive to local market conditions. The next big city over, 35 miles to the east has a noticeable step up in prices from where I live. It would be nice if Zagat's had more menus (with prices) for restaurants that have locations where I am and in NYC so that I could test this theory some more. (I just tried with Ruth's Chris and Del Frisco's and had no luck.) Also, I suppose I am biased towards steak prices, so I may overestimate average entree prices.


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## KenCPollock (Dec 20, 2003)

If it was exclusive and upscale, you had the right to expect better. There are all sorts of restaurants, from humble to grand luxury (although these are unfortunately diminishing in number). Elegant restaurants offer more than just good food; the décor, the manner and dress of the waiters, and the luxury of such places can provide an overall superb dining experience that can transcend the various components. People who do not know this and who dress in a slovenly manner so as diminish the experience of fellow diners are ignorant, selfish and/or just boorish.

By the way....
https://www.styleforum.net/t/9184/cap-in-a-fine-restaurant


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

oxford said:


> I was at the most exclusive upscale Steakhouse in my area this evening where the meals average 35.00 and up plus extra for sides and of course drinks. Had reservations and was seated next to a young man in mid 20s and his wife or she may have been a girlfriend. He was wearing a backwards baseball style hat with the visor purposely worn backwards, jeans with tears in the knees, a tee shirt advertising a local sports bar and sneaks. In my opinion I felt this attire was most inappropriate for this type of establishment and if I am paying these upscale prices should I have to be seated next to this type of individual. I realize he may be very affluent and perhaps a practicing attorney or medical professional, etc., etc. Anyone else share my frustration or am I too particular or too Trad. I was wearing a J. Press Navy Blazer with charcoal gabardines, a blue stripe oxford cloth button down and a Ben Silver Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie, argyle Byford socks and Alden Tassel Loafers. My Lady Friend was also well presented with Talbot Clothing. Any Comments?


I think wearing what he worn was inappropriate but it's a restaurant so he can wear whatever he wants.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Howard said:


> I think wearing what he worn was inappropriate but it's a restaurant so he can wear whatever he wants.


Bathing suit? Birthday suit?

If everything is indeed permissible, then our culture truly has disintegrated more rapidly than even I thought, and I believe we are irretrievably lost...


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## Dr. D (Nov 19, 2010)

Hmmm, up here Bangor is considered a big city. But remember that the entire state of Maine has just over a million people in total.

I went to a wedding a few years ago just outside of Bangor. I was the only person wearing a suit and one of only 2 atendees that was wearing a tie. The other gentleman had a plaid flannel shirt under his tie. That's Maine.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Things are pretty casual here in Maine. I live in one of the more affluent towns along the coast, many doctors and lawyers, and I almost never see anyone with a tie or jacket, unless they're coming home from work. Curiously there is one good men's clothing store in downtown Portland (David Woods) and I wonder how he survives. 

As for the slipping of propriety, I took my daughter to a Broadway show in NYC two weeks back. I remember my parents getting dressed up to go to a show. At the evening performance we went to many people were dressed like for a picnic. Similarly, I was surprised that people were arriving well after the performance had begun and the ushers were actually seating them directly. 

A child of Sixties, I have to say that I'm a bit sad for the general slackening of rules and sense of formality in certain environments. It's not just in the United States. Recall the scenes of crowds waiting to view the corpse of Pope John Paul in shorts and tank tops. A backwards ball cap in a restaurant is not at all surprising.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

oxford said:


> Thanks for all your responses Gentleman. The tide of opinion appears to be split down the middle with many feeling I am a snob and many agreeing that I am not a snob. I was not prepared for the City of Bangor to come under attack but oh well so be it. Also, my Lady friend did not have to be told how to present herself since she is in management of a bank and presents herself quite well on a daily basis, she also shops at Talbots in Bangor. I guess anything goes these days as being what is and what is not appropriate, no boundaries, even in the Trad Forum.


I think you're a snob, but I don't see anything wrong with it. Look down your nose all you want. Fine by me.


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## AncientMadder (Apr 21, 2011)

Complaining about how someone else is dressed is as tacky as the original offense here.


I'm an editor by trade but don't feel offended when people end sentences with prepositions or use "comprise" incorrectly.


Be glad you understand the language of clothes better and don't fret when someone else is less fluent.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

Tiger said:


> Something to consider, coming from a New Yorker who has eaten at many of our fine restaurants: A "barely upscale" restaurant, as you put it, with $35 entrees will have $20 appetizers, and $10 desserts. Add a decent bottle of wine, tax, and tip, and the bill will exceed $250 for two people. "Barely upscale"? Are you sure?
> 
> Check the menus (on-line or Zagat's will suffice) of some of New York's best restaurants. Outside of the truly stratospheric ones, most will have entrees at the $35 threshold. They are indeed upscale - no "barely" qualifiers needed!


I believe the OP stated meals averaging $35 with extra for side orders and drinks, while you mention $35 starters etc. Different ballparks entirely....

In any case the price was really not the main point for me, but rather that a steakhouse could be considered upscale. I guess it must be quite different in the US, since here a steakhouse is exactly where I would expect to meet backwards-baseball-cap-wearing people and suchlike.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

While I patronize places where I am able to indulge sartorially, I realize that it isn't always the guy in the suit who's ordering Goose or Patron. Actually I make a pretty lousy customer, as I generally order cola (and if it's less than 5 dollars, I tip up to 5 dollars) and sit in the corner with my people. I used to go to bars with my fraternity brothers and we were a free-spending, wild bunch.

Of course I was in a wine bar and the owner came out from behind the bar and told my buddy he wasn't welcome here until he removed his ballcap. That fellow went broke. The reality is you need to appeal to the people who spend gobs of money, not just the well-dressed.

​Tom


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Belfaborac said:


> I believe the OP stated meals averaging $35 with extra for side orders and drinks, while you mention $35 starters etc. Different ballparks entirely....
> 
> In any case the price was really not the main point for me, but rather that a steakhouse could be considered upscale. I guess it must be quite different in the US, since here a steakhouse is exactly where I would expect to meet backwards-baseball-cap-wearing people and suchlike.


I realize what the OP wrote, but BrianPaul then commented about "$35 entrees barely approaching upscale." I was reacting to _*that*_ comment, hence why I included BrianPaul's remarks in my post.

As far as steakhouses go, New York and many other American cities have very upscale ones. The Palm, Porter House New York, Sparks, Benjamin Steak House, and a host of others epitomize this; backwards baseball caps would be very out of place next to the proliferation of business suits populating these establishments. Peter Luger isn't "upscale" as such due to decor and service, but the beef is world-famously fabulous, with prices to match.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Belfaborac said:


> 5) People surprised that a steakhouse where meals can be had for $35 is considered "upscale".


$35 does not go very far in restaurants in Denmark or Sweden. I imagine Norway would be the same.

'Upscale' is a very American term. Likewise 'douche'.

If fellow diners are an issue, the OP could try eating in golf clubs where they have a dress code. ''No caps in the clubhouse, no denim, no shirts without collars'' etc.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

KenCPollock said:


> If it was exclusive and upscale, you had the right to expect better. There are all sorts of restaurants, from humble to grand luxury (although these are unfortunately diminishing in number). Elegant restaurants offer more than just good food; the décor, the manner and dress of the waiters, and the luxury of such places can provide an overall superb dining experience that can transcend the various components. People who do not know this and who dress in a slovenly manner so as diminish the experience of fellow diners are ignorant, selfish and/or just boorish.
> 
> By the way....
> https://www.styleforum.net/t/9184/cap-in-a-fine-restaurant


Thanks, Ken, for summing it up perfectly.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Mike Petrik said:


> Thanks, Ken, for summing it up perfectly.


Agreed!

At its root, what some of us are lamenting is the decline - no, disintegration - of American standards of etiquette, professionalism, decency, and consideration. Eating at "golf clubs" doesn't solve this insidious problem...


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Tiger said:


> Bathing suit? Birthday suit?
> 
> If everything is indeed permissible, then our culture truly has disintegrated more rapidly than even I thought, and I believe we are irretrievably lost...


I'm just saying if the manager doesn't say anything then I guess wearing what he worn was ok but it's an upscale restaurant and I think he would've at least put on a blazer.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Dr. D said:


> Hmmm, up here Bangor is considered a big city. But remember that the entire state of Maine has just over a million people in total.
> 
> I went to a wedding a few years ago just outside of Bangor. I was the only person wearing a suit and one of only 2 atendees that was wearing a tie. The other gentleman had a plaid flannel shirt under his tie. That's Maine.


LOL. But then again, we cannot overlook the pervasive influence of LL Bean on the wardrobing of all those Maine...iacs! (Out here we are called Hoosiers. Just what do they call a resident of Maine?) Isn't everyone in Maine a stockholder in the "company?" :icon_scratch:


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

oxford said:


> In my opinion I felt this attire was most inappropriate for this type of establishment and if I am paying these upscale prices should I have to be seated next to this type of individual. I realize he may be very affluent...


If you weren't seated next to him, who should have been? Sometimes in life, you have to take one for the team with good cheer.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

gr8w8er said:


> I don't dress for you. I dress for me. I am not involved in a crusade to make this world a better place because of how I look.
> 
> My guess is it's the same POV as the guy in the baseball hat. Seems healthy and appropriate to me.
> 
> But to the real question at hand ... did you do the nasty with that Talbot girl when you were done greasing down the Porterhouse? I have an idea about the baseball hat guy ... bon appetit.


Was this necessary?


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

gr8w8er said:


> I don't dress for you. I dress for me. I am not involved in a crusade to make this world a better place because of how I look.
> 
> My guess is it's the same POV as the guy in the baseball hat. Seems healthy and appropriate to me.
> 
> But to the real question at hand ... did you do the nasty with that Talbot girl when you were done greasing down the Porterhouse? I have an idea about the baseball hat guy ... bon appetit.


Speaking of the disintegration of American standards of etiquette, professionalism, decency, and consideration...here's Exhibit A!


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Since all the gentlemen in this forum appear well educated, I'd urge them to adopt an anthropological detachment and observe the offensive get-up not as a lowering of standards but a change. Indeed, trad gents indulge in change themselves, some of which could be read as lowering of standards, albeit standards that hardly anyone remembers, such as where and where not to wear a blazer. Not long ago, a young food blogger took me to a chef-driven restaurant he admired wearing sports shirt and slacks, which was fine for this place, and rubber flip-flops on his feet. All clothing is language. His said, defiantly I think for he was bright and not naive, what matters here is the food and my expertise, not what I put on my feet. I admired his chutzpah, though not his toes. And the food was, indeed, admirable.
I'd also urge all to allow sartorial sophistication to spill over to other sectors of experience and drop a category like "upscale", essentially meaningless and -- to be a snob myself -- petit-bourgeois. Here we don't judge clothes by the price; otherwise, we'd be designer ga-ga, which is anathema to the trad esthetic. The price scale of a restaurant is irrelevant -- to quality of food, service and, if you wish, dress code. Other things matter far more, as my flip-flopped blogger friend underscored with his get up.
Finally, let's take the baseball-capped with the same insouciance we wear with our clothes, which look, after all, truly eccentric and even transgressive in our time.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

The amount of reverse-snobbery in this thread is staggering, and some of the comments are the rudest I've seen outside the Interchange. Dining in a fine restaurant is not just about food. It's about the experience. I've designed restaurants for celebrity chefs (steakhouses included) that have earned 26-30 from Zagat in every category and I can assure you that no amount of attention, effort or expense are spared in creating the atmosphere for such an experience. If an owner will travel to the Himalayas to pick out rock salt for lining the walls of his restaurant's aging room, I can assure he will want to know if anything detracted from a patron's dining experience. One solitary complaint might not change the policy, but each comment is taken into account and considered when establishing restaurant policy. 

As an example, the Atlantic City restaurant/casino L-feld referred to in an earlier post was part of an almost $300 million dollar renovation project, and their implementation of a dress code back in 2005 was thought to be financial suicide. Almost ten years later, their dress code is still in effect and it's one of the more enjoyable and successful destinations in AC.

Bottom line, restaurants and other venues will cater to whatever they think will please their average customer and higher end locations will spend a lot of money to hit that target. It's not snobbery to let the management know if they've fallen short of your expectations (though I would never address a fellow patron directly) and, in the end, it's better for the restaurant and better for you.


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## Marcc237 (Mar 22, 2004)

My view is that it is not snobbery to expect a certain ambiance in restaurants. Certain restaurants, as Hardline 42 notes, we attend not just for the quality of the food, but for the overall dining experience. This experience is often a combination of decor, lighting, table spacing, music or, preferably, lack thereof, professionalism of service, and, yes, the decorum of fellow patrons. I do not think it snobbery to desire a certain degree of dress in an establishment that is seeking that ambiance. If I am eating crawfish at a road side open air place in Louisiana, I would think a suit and tie unnecessary. If I am having dinner with my sweetie in August in New Orleans, I would find ripped jeans, a soiled AC/DC T-shirt, and baseball cap to be unfortunate. I do believe that there are times and places for most things and that part of the process of civilization is the inculcation of those values. 

The tricky part is when the values shift - few of us wear a dinner jacket to dine or a sports coat and tie to hunt. However, too sudden a change is glaring. And, as to a previous poster, I personally think being a gentleman includes the notion that we dress and otherwise comport ourselves not just for ourselves. 

One observation: women get it far more easily than guys. Most of the times, the guy in the T-shirt and jeans is accompanied by a well put together woman in nice slacks, a blouse, and good shoes, or a dress and heels - almost always with hair and make-up well done.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Two excellent posts, Hardline and Marcc...thank you!

One point: Sometimes, demographics and economics make it nearly impossible for a restaurant to be selective in its clientele. One would hope that most Americans would not need to be told to wear appropriate attire when dining in an elegant setting, but alas, the degradation of our society continues unabated (not just regarding this topic, but on so many other cultural indicators)...


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

I dine at fine steakhouses frequently. I've been to Atlanta's finest over 100 times, in fact, and have happily approved many checks that exceeded 3 figures. I usually wear a tie and always at least a jacket, but I certainly don't get concerned when some gents are sans jacket. And if a gent shows up in shorts and a polo I try to be forgoiving -- a gentleman should just assume innocent ignorance. But wearing a baseball cap (I don't care which direction) is an obvious thumb in the nose to both the establishment and its patrons. It screams "Look at me -- I don't give a rat's a$$ about anyone and their silly conventions don't apply to me." Now perhaps that interpretation would be presumptuous in Bangor -- I couldn't say. But it would be an easy and safe call in Atlanta.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Tiger said:


> Speaking of the disintegration of American standards of etiquette, professionalism, decency, and consideration...here's Exhibit A!


Hear, hear.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

oxford said:


> I was at the most exclusive upscale Steakhouse in my area this evening where the meals average 35.00 and up plus extra for sides and of course drinks. Had reservations and was seated next to a young man in mid 20s and his wife or she may have been a girlfriend. He was wearing a backwards baseball style hat with the visor purposely worn backwards, jeans with tears in the knees, a tee shirt advertising a local sports bar and sneaks. In my opinion I felt this attire was most inappropriate for this type of establishment and if I am paying these upscale prices should I have to be seated next to this type of individual. I realize he may be very affluent and perhaps a practicing attorney or medical professional, etc., etc. Anyone else share my frustration or am I too particular or too Trad. I was wearing a J. Press Navy Blazer with charcoal gabardines, a blue stripe oxford cloth button down and a Ben Silver Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie, argyle Byford socks and Alden Tassel Loafers. My Lady Friend was also well presented with Talbot Clothing. Any Comments?


A couple weeks ago I was at a restaurant that cost even more than yours. I chose to wear a three piece suit because I thought it was appropriate. But, _ye gods_! I noticed there were patrons near me wearing untucked shirts with jeans!!! I turned to my girlfriend with bated breath and told her...

That all the selections on the menu sounded pretty good and that I'd have a tough time deciding. How inconsiderate of the restaurant not to force a decision on me!

Guess what? It was a lot more enjoyable focusing on our date than worrying about what any people near us were wearing. The lighting was dim, anyways.

Unless he was talking too loudly or hadn't bathed in a week, I fail to see how he could have detracted from your meal.

If you were well dressed, you likely had a few other people reconsidering what they chose to wear. I've outright been told by others, looking me up and down, "Oh man, I should've worn a blazer." Certainly a lot better than going over and telling the offending patron about it. That's not what a gentleman does. A gentleman minds his own business unless it directly affects him.



Tempest said:


> All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If you did not make him aware of his transgression, you are guilty of tolerance and complicit in this sin. Did you walk over and politely inform him that he'd forgotten to take his hat off? *These chemo patients think they can just cover their bald heads all day long and they need to be told otherwise*.


Can I just point out that this attitude toward cancer survivors is more offensive than anyone wearing jeans and t-shirts into a fancy restaurant? Because it is.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

By the way, while I actually wouldn't mind a restaurant with a dress code, I doubt it'd do well here. People in the southwest rarely wear a tie even for business.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

My sympathies here are with the restaurant owner. Given the state of the economy, and the fact people's dress is unquestionably becoming increasingly casual (or even slovenly), it has to be hard to figure out what dress code can be enforced and still remain profitable.

Tell the owner you found this lout's dress objectionable? Hard to see how that would help; he already knows that many of his patrons did. The problem is in knowing whether it will prevent their return.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Unless he was talking too loudly or hadn't bathed in a week, I fail to see how he could have detracted from your meal.


Not picking on you Jovan, but I see this same, or similar, statement in a lot of comments. Why are hearing and smell senses worthy of defending and sight is not? A pleasant eating experience at a quality restaurant engages all of the senses and anything that offends one or more of them detracts from the experience as a whole.



Jovan said:


> Certainly a lot better than going over and telling the offending patron about it. That's not what a gentleman does. A gentleman minds his own business unless it directly affects him.


Agreed. There is very little to be gained from confronting a fellow diner about his dress/behavior and much to lose.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You raise a good point. Perhaps it is subjective from one person to the next. I can simply look away and focus on my girlfriend or other dining partners if I find the way someone dresses objectionable. On the other hand, if someone's loud talking or pungent odour (this can include excessive use of fragrance as well) permeates the restaurant, it's much harder to ignore.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

hardline_42 said:


> Not picking on you Jovan, but I see this same, or similar, statement in a lot of comments. Why are hearing and smell senses worthy of defending and sight is not? A pleasant eating experience at a quality restaurant engages all of the senses and anything that offends one or more of them detracts from the experience as a whole.


Aesthetics, including visual aesthetics, are part of the experience of fine dining. Accordingly when being seated at a restaurant I am always conscious of my wife's view. Because I know that she really does not want to be facing the restroom area or even the kitchen, I will make sure to take that seat if necessary.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Jovan said:


> Can I just point out that this attitude toward cancer survivors is more offensive than anyone wearing jeans and t-shirts into a fancy restaurant? Because it is.


I think he was mocking me, and not being sincere.

Nonetheless, I agree with the sentiment. Cancer survivors think that the world owes them a living. Not only do they want taxpayers to pay for their chemo treatments, they even want taxpayers to pay for their hats.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Reading this thread, I cannot help but wonder if there is not an alternative clothing forum out there somewhere in which the guy wearing the baseball cap is complaining to his buddies about all those uptight A**Holes in coats and ties with whom he has to share his favorite upscale restaurant? Something tells me he probably would have more important things to focus upon like, was the food as tasty as he had hoped it would be.


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## Marcc237 (Mar 22, 2004)

To Eagle:

I think the distinction is between eating and dining. I have had amazing food in places where there is no decor, no ambiance, and what folk wore was decidedly a non-issue. However, from time to time, I want the whole package of fine food, fine service, fine decor, and all else involved. In the latter event, the dress of the patrons becomes part of the overall experience of the establishment. That being said, I hope I am adult enough that it would not ruin my experience if the other patrons did not take as seriously the notion of dressing for the venue. So, in your hypothetical, yes, the food is the most important component of the experience, but it is not the only component.


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## Captain America (Aug 28, 2012)

This is an excellent reason for joining a club. . . or developing one.

Atmosphere and pleasant manners are rare commodities in 2013; our popular culture encourages in-your-face rudeness. . . and people walking about the streets in pajamas.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Captain America said:


> . . . and people walking about the streets in pajamas.


Are you, sir, referring to seersucker? :icon_smile_big:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Ah, that's one of the great things about seeersucker. They are appropriate business attire that is as comfortable as pajamas.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

On the other end of the spectrum, I have eaten at a number of DC-area restaurants that can easily pass the $100 mark per person before drinks, and can really think of only one restaurant where I would have felt underdressed (with regard to the rest of the patrons) without a tie. 

The thing is, at $35/entree, you're in that gray area pricepoint where it is a really fancy date restaurant for some folks and a casual "I don't feel like cooking tonight" bite to eat for others. Along those lines, the restaurant I ate at for my junior prom and one other time in high school (an anniversary date with my HS sweetheart) is also the restaurant I now like to unwind at with a beer and casual meal after a long day of trout fishing, if my clothes managed to stay clean and dry.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

In more sophisticated city, the restaurant management might know to seat people who are not as well dressed in the back of the restaurant somewhere, like near the kitchen/bus station.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Mike Petrik said:


> But wearing a baseball cap (I don't care which direction) is an obvious thumb in the nose to both the establishment and its patrons. It screams "Look at me -- I don't give a rat's a$$ about anyone and their silly conventions don't apply to me."


Maybe it was 20 years ago. Or even 10, but I sincerely think that there are cohorts of kids (and sadly adults) who don't know better. Ignorance is still a better explanation.


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## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

Much of this discussion reminds me of something my mother pointed out to me a few years back:



(Went there for my 21st B-Day... but it was a different time then.)


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

LordSmoke said:


> Are you, sir, referring to seersucker? :icon_smile_big:





Mike Petrik said:


> Ah, that's one of the great things about seeersucker. They are appropriate business attire that is as comfortable as pajamas.


Maybe he's referring to the remark I shared in another thread? Basically someone was pointed and laughed at for wearing "a suit [made] out of sleeping clothes". Joke's on the chucklehead of course. His target was probably better turned out and more comfortable.

The more I hear these things, the more I want to wear one this summer.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

zzdocxx said:


> In more sophisticated city, the restaurant management might know to seat people who are not as well dressed in the back of the restaurant somewhere, like near the kitchen/bus station.


Exactly, just as the valet parks the new and expensive cars in front of the place and parks the junkers in the back.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

gamma68 said:


> Pardon me for saying this, but it seems a rather snobbish reaction to someone who chooses not to dress in a manner you prefer. While I agree that there plenty of men (young and old) who could raise the bar on their appearance, it begs the question: do you dine at this Steakhouse for the food or the clientele? If it's too hard to ignore patrons like this person wearing the baseball cap backwards, and if they ruin the enjoyment of your meal, then perhaps take frosejr's advice and dine at a restaurant with a dress code.


The problem is people should have the decency to observe the decorum of wherever they're going. It's a matter of having consideration for others, and not looking like an idiot. Obviously, the guy in question doesn't think much of others or of himself because he chose to dress like a fifth grader going to a ball game. The OP is expressing his opinion and he has a right to do so; there's nothing snobbish about that.

I always try to dress my best for any social situation. I'm actually glad that the other fools think that looking like slobs is cool, because it makes me look that much better.

To the OP: look on the bright side. This guy's ridiculous get up made you look even better! Cheers my friends!


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

oxford said:


> I was at the most exclusive upscale Steakhouse in my area this evening where the meals average 35.00 and up plus extra for sides and of course drinks. Had reservations and was seated next to a young man in mid 20s and his wife or she may have been a girlfriend. He was wearing a backwards baseball style hat with the visor purposely worn backwards, jeans with tears in the knees, a tee shirt advertising a local sports bar and sneaks. In my opinion I felt this attire was most inappropriate for this type of establishment and if I am paying these upscale prices should I have to be seated next to this type of individual. I realize he may be very affluent and perhaps a practicing attorney or medical professional, etc., etc. Anyone else share my frustration or am I too particular or too Trad. I was wearing a J. Press Navy Blazer with charcoal gabardines, a blue stripe oxford cloth button down and a Ben Silver Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie, argyle Byford socks and Alden Tassel Loafers. My Lady Friend was also well presented with Talbot Clothing. Any Comments?


I have to agree with you in your statement. when I go out with my wife for fine dining I expect the decor (and clientele) to suit the restaurant's image. that is to say, if i'm paying premium prices for the pleasure of dining in such an establishment then the restaurant should enforce some sort of dress code. I absolutely loathe those who choose to dress down as if they're eating lunch at the local Fuddrucker's. does this make me a snob? perhaps. I guess i'm old fashioned in the sense that I expect men to dress appropriately when called for, such as when going to church, a play or a nice restaurant.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

gr8w8er said:


> I don't dress for you. I dress for me. I am not involved in a crusade to make this world a better place because of how I look.
> 
> My guess is it's the same POV as the guy in the baseball hat. Seems healthy and appropriate to me.
> 
> But to the real question at hand ... did you do the nasty with that Talbot girl when you were done greasing down the Porterhouse? I have an idea about the baseball hat guy ... bon appetit.


Well now. Aren't you a class act!


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## Marcc237 (Mar 22, 2004)

One observation, the correlation to dressing well in a restaurant is often, but not always tied to price. In NYC, it is quite possible to spend a fair amount at a place I would feel quite comfortable not wearing a jacket and tie. Yet, there are smaller, less expensive, more intimate places where I would tend to not, at least, where a jacket. Some of this is, of course, a function of the insane pricing in large city restaurants. 

I will leave this to the members who are more articulate than I, but I do think there is a type of restaurant that just is more adult in theme and ambiance and for which a better manner of dress is more appropriate. These places are less likely to be hot on Yelp or trendy, but are soothing, reliable, and nice for that romantic occasion. Think of the charming bistro, the country inn, or family run tratorria that has been around forever.

But, then I am old enough to remember when dressing down meant wearing a sports coat and not a suit.


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## jbarwick (Nov 17, 2012)

This thread provides! The enjoyment I have received has been worth the cost of entry.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

My belated 2 cents. I enjoyed the seersucker/pajamas comment. No one questions the right of a fellow citizen to wear whatever ill fitting or tastelss or inappropriate garb the law allows to a restaurant that has no dress code against it.

That said, we are entitled to our feeling, snobbish or not, that dressing in a way that a reasonable person would find inappropriate to the occasion and place conveys a *disrespect for others*. It says "F-you, I don't care what you and others think.", which of course, is very modern and correct.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

gr8w8er said:


> Well, frankly your approbation or lack thereof does nothing for me.
> 
> But I will restate my premise; have a good appetit for everything the world has and stop being so consumed by what someone else is wearing. I'm guessing Mr. Dressdown is about 400% more likely to have enjoyed a great evening with his gal pal than the OP. No reason for it, can't substantiate it. But my history with people consumed with appearances is that they fail to enjoy life at all.
> 
> ...


And so remind me again, if you're above caring about appearances, what are you doing in a forum dedicated to discussing men's clothes? And not just men's clothes too. This is the "trad" forum. By definition, this forum is THE place for stuffy snobs!


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

gr8w8er said:


> sure.
> 
> I like to look good, and I find that I perform my job better when I do. I get self-worth from it; I'm sure, given that most everyone here is fairly educated, this comes as no surprise at all.
> 
> Its not something that comes easy to me (at the very least, because I'm color blind), and I relish in the success.


Color blindness is the least of your problems.


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## Marcc237 (Mar 22, 2004)

gr8w8er said:


> But I will restate my premise; have a good appetit for everything the world has and stop being so consumed by what someone else is wearing. I'm guessing Mr. Dressdown is about 400% more likely to have enjoyed a great evening with his gal pal than the OP. No reason for it, can't substantiate it. But my history with people consumed with appearances is that they fail to enjoy life at all.
> 
> FWIW ... I'd wait on Mr. Hat all day and twice on Sunday before Mr & Mrs Talbot. Nothing like a pompous attitude to make a dining room stink.


This is a very interesting observation to me. I dress up for dinner, often wearing a tie, tip quite well and treat the staff with utmost respect. But, then I associate doing so as part of proper restaurant etiquette. My daughter's generation, many of whom dress down, often do not tip so well and have quite the sense of entitlement. But then YMMV.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Look this whole "I dress for myself" stuff is so sadly typical of our era. It is admirable and appropriate to dress in a manner that shows respect for one's host and his companions. People used to know this.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

gr8w8er said:


> sure.
> 
> I like to look good, and I find that I perform my job better when I do. I get self-worth from it; I'm sure, given that most everyone here is fairly educated, this comes as no surprise at all.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm sure you're aware that you pick out the clothes you do knowing that others will see you in them. You also probably feel better when you dress well because you get more positive feedback from others, who make instantaneous judgements about you based on how you look. So when you think about it very carefully, perhaps you do dress for others, and not so much for yourself. I know I don't put on my best suit to lounge around the house.

And BTW, "casual" is one thing. An appearance that says "I don't give a f--- about you or about what you think" is another.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

gr8w8er said:


> FWIW ... I'd wait on Mr. Hat all day and twice on Sunday before Mr & Mrs Talbot. Nothing like a pompous attitude to make a dining room stink.


Hey gr8w8r, how's about telling us which restaurant employs you? I'll make sure to tell all of my well-dressed friends to steer clear since, it seems, the staff would prefer not to wait on them.


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## Marcc237 (Mar 22, 2004)

gr8w8er said:


> I think you are right on, at least as regards tips; but who you'd like to serve sometimes isn't dictated by how much they'll leave you. My days of serving past long ago but I normally made what I needed long before the night ended, so it was more about enjoying my job.
> 
> I don't mean it to be an affront. After all I myself dress the part when I dine out.


I would prefer to be served by someone who is not making snap judgments based on the dress of his/her customers. But, to your question, an alternative way of seeing the issue is that the Talbot couple cared enough about the experience to dress well and pick a nice restaurant to enhance their experience and, as with my wife and I, simply enjoy an evening if fine dining. The Talbot couple may have been perfectly appropriate in the restaurant setting and reacted only by the husband commenting to an internet site populated by obsessives. Were i their waiter, I might take my clues from the interactions with the customer and not so much by the superficial aspect of their clothing. But, when I worked in restaurants man years ago, things may have been quite different.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Marcc237 said:


> To Eagle:
> 
> I think the distinction is between eating and dining. I have had amazing food in places where there is no decor, no ambiance, and what folk wore was decidedly a non-issue. However, from time to time, I want the whole package of fine food, fine service, fine decor, and all else involved. In the latter event, the dress of the patrons becomes part of the overall experience of the establishment. That being said, I hope I am adult enough that it would not ruin my experience if the other patrons did not take as seriously the notion of dressing for the venue. So, in your hypothetical, yes, the food is the most important component of the experience, but it is not the only component.


Marcc237: I don't specifically disagree with a word you typed, but think you may have missed my point, which was the guy wearing the baseball cap , as illustrated in the OP, probably didn't do so with an intent to insult anyone or to create an act of rebellion against conventional dress standards (whatever they may be these days!). He and his companion were simply there to enjoy a meal. You would be hard pressed to find a restaurant out here in Hoosierville and I doubt you could do so in the State of Maine that enforces the dress standards you embrace or even that I embrace. Very rarely do I go into a restaurant and I am not among the very best dressed in the establishment. My wife likes it like that and I enjoy pleasing her. However, I cannot remember once going into a restaurant out here in Hoosierville in which every gentleman was wearing a coat and tie. In real life out here in the real world, it just does not happen. All I am saying is don't let reality ruin your day!


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

oxford said:


> I was at the most exclusive upscale Steakhouse in my area this evening where the meals average 35.00 and up plus extra for sides and of course drinks. Had reservations and was seated next to a young man in mid 20s and his wife or she may have been a girlfriend. He was wearing a backwards baseball style hat with the visor purposely worn backwards, jeans with tears in the knees, a tee shirt advertising a local sports bar and sneaks. In my opinion I felt this attire was most inappropriate for this type of establishment and if I am paying these upscale prices should I have to be seated next to this type of individual. I realize he may be very affluent and perhaps a practicing attorney or medical professional, etc., etc. Anyone else share my frustration or am I too particular or too Trad. I was wearing a J. Press Navy Blazer with charcoal gabardines, a blue stripe oxford cloth button down and a Ben Silver Royal Yacht Club Regimental Stripe Tie, argyle Byford socks and Alden Tassel Loafers. My Lady Friend was also well presented with Talbot Clothing. Any Comments?


I'm not sure how "upscale" or "fine" should be defined with regard to steakhouses anymore, but from the appalling dress and comportment to be observed in several of these establishments during the past few years, a lot is left to be found wanting in the overall experience. (A friend refers to these joints as "schmuckhouses".) :icon_smile: There is one exception that advertises as the "civilized" steakhouse. And please note that a "Jacket is required for a *gentleman* at dinner": https://www.theprimerib.com/dc/information.html


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Canadian said:


> ...Of course I was in a wine bar and the owner came out from behind the bar and told my buddy he wasn't welcome here until he removed his ballcap...


In some burgs (like Lawndale) ballcaps are sometimes gang attire. Some bars will forbid ballcaps to keep gangbangers out.

What I hate is loud swearing in a nice restaurant by thuggish louts. How's that?


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

I really don't care what people wear when I am at a restaurant. Their money spends the same way as my own. However, as long as their voices are not as loud as their clothing, I am just fine. I tend to focus on my food and my dining companion(s). Life is too short to worry about the attire of a complete stranger in a non-private dining establishment.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

gr8w8er said:


> Thanks for the (mostly) civil discussion. Certainly a touch above most of the comments made here.


Especially post #57, which illustrates your first impression point very nicely as well.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

gr8w8er said:


> Yah, well, no apologies.
> 
> If it offends you, don't read it so often and move on. I certainly don't re-read your boring posts at all, _Mike_. But there's certainly no doubt we disagree. You seem to have this superiority thing that runs through your very core.
> 
> It must be very difficult to be you ... finding so much wrong with the rest of the world. Good luck with that awesome responsibility.


I've read Mike Petrik's posts for years, and never once did I think he evinced a whiff of arrogance, disdain, superiority, or boredom. In my mind's eye, he has always come across as a Southern gentleman, an attorney (I believe) without the myriad stereotypes associated with that profession. His posts are usually precise, concise, and valuable.

Gr8w8er seems to be attacking Mike because he pointed out one of the most intellectually painful things in life - one's own hypocrisy, demonstrated by one's own words/actions. That gr8w8er made it a point to refuse to apologize conveys far more than perhaps he realizes.


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## De-Boj (Jul 5, 2009)

I was that guy once, when I was younger. I wasn't wearing a hat, I was in shorts. I took my girlfriend (now my wife) out to a really nice resturant. We had never been there before, and was going on a review, which said "casual"...Business casual would have been more correct. we were seated, and I took one look around and realized that I had fell short of the mark in the clothes department. I felt bad, but I didn't want to disappoint my date, who was looking forward to trying this resturant for the furst time. I stuck my legs as far under the table as I could, and didn't move until the bill was paid. The food was great, in fact it is one of my wifes favorite resturants. We have been back many times, but I never made the same mistake again.


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## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

Ok attire while dining out, I do confess I do wear jeans out to fine establishments granted they are the $200+ slim fit Selvage variety coupled with a nice OCBD and a sports jacket with penny loafers. Wearing baseball caps indoors is a big no-no for me regardless which way the brim is facing. Now wearing a baseball cap on backwards is so 1992, sounds like you have someone who never left the high school cafeteria.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Jovan said:


> By the way, while I actually wouldn't mind a restaurant with a dress code, I doubt it'd do well here. People in the southwest rarely wear a tie even for business.


I see guys wearing ties especially to a fast food restaurant.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

unless he worn the baseball cap the other way maybe It would've been a bit appropriate to wear.


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## FJW (Jan 25, 2012)

I wish someone would invent something that this guy could wear 
on his head to keep the sun out of his eyes!


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

gr8w8er said:


> A pompous attitude doesn't come automatically with being well-attired, but apparently you would like to make de rigueur.
> 
> What I find fascinating is this perspective comes from a group of people that celebrate what I would call the most democratic of style choices. The average WAYWT guy sports an open collar, and wears an entirely OTR wardrobe, and looks great; not just great, but comfortable and well-worn. It would seem to me that people that enjoy wearing the soft comfort of chamois would be ... well, I don't know. Accepting? Reasonable? Less concerned with what others enjoyed wearing? Less inclined to adopt attitude?


It seems to me like you're implying that, while a pompous attitude and being well-attired often (but not always) go hand in hand, it's always safe to assume that a person dressed casually is an awesome human being. I'm sure you'll re-quote yourself yet again to prove that's not what you're saying, but it seems to be the running theme of many of your posts.

With regard to the WAYWT, the common thread in all the photos is not that they are all wearing open collars or OTR clothes. It's that they are dressed appropriately for the occasion. I hardly expect members to dress in a suit when they're relaxing in their own home or to don their black tie rig before heading to the office. I don't know about assuming everyone who wears Trad clothing is "accepting, reasonable, less inclined to adopt attitude" etc. It does tell me that they care about how they look and the impact it has on those around them, both admirable qualities, in my opinion.


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## Captain America (Aug 28, 2012)

Here's one man's views:

* people can be jerks about dress codes
* people can dress offensively and immodestly
* people in public should be considerate toward others in dress and in speech
* popular culture in 2013 in a number of ways celebrates offensiveness in dress and speech as a kind of personal power or liberation
* even if one has the legal right to do something, this doesn't make it correct to do it.
* when others are trying to have a nice time, I forbear pissing in their stew


Me, I just am tired of seeing tatooed single chicks waltzing around the grocery store in droopy pajama bottoms. It makes me sad for American society and makes me lose hope for the future. Where's the personal pride?


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

drlivingston said:


> I really don't care what people wear when I am at a restaurant. Their money spends the same way as my own. However, as long as their voices are not as loud as their clothing, I am just fine.


Great advice.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Captain America said:


> This is an excellent reason for joining a club. . . or developing one.


To what end? To hang out with people who dress, look, and think exactly like me? How boring...and distressing...


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

A good five pages of entertainment here. This is my take on it:

As a college student where the vast majority of my peers are donning the aforementioned baseball cap look (or worse), it's easy to see where bad dress etiquette arises from. 
When I go out to eat, I try to dress for the establishment. A sub-shop does not require a tie, but if it was a nicer date and I wanted to improve my own appearance, I would try to make my attire fit the atmosphere (or improve upon it!)

If I were in a nice restaurant, and saw the hat wearing "bro", I would probably find it more humorous than enraging. He's making a fool out of himself and coincidentally making me look even better. Now that being said, if the entire establishment was inhabited by the cohorts of this look, I'd probably steer clear.

Now on the other hand, say I were hosting a party at that same restaurant and he for whatever reason was one of my guests. _Then_ I would take personal offence to that way of dressing because I would be able to say it was an expectation for people to arrive looking halfway decent.

If you really don't like seeing this, I would then suggest checking out places with a dress code. There has to still be some out there, and Yelp reviews typically will tell you this as well.

At least he wasn't wearing Ed Hardy.... Or was he?


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Mike Petrik said:


> Aesthetics, including visual aesthetics, are part of the experience of fine dining. Accordingly when being seated at a restaurant I am always conscious of my wife's view. Because I know that she really does not want to be facing the restroom area or even the kitchen, I will make sure to take that seat if necessary.


I can agree with this to a certain extent. For example, when dining at the Alexandria (VA) Ruth Chris, I would prefer a seat near the window to see the Capitol building all lit up at night, but to apply this criterion to a fellow patron is going too far, in my opinion. For one thing, it is impossible to control and, for another, it leads to a stressful evening. I would rather enjoy my evening than entertain the following questions: Do I need to be worried when a table empties beside me? Will the maitre'd seat a backward capped dude beside me? Should I complain if he does? Did I bring my blood pressure pills?

Letting a fellow patron "ruin" your "perfect" evening because he isn't dressed right is not the way to live your life.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I can agree with this to a certain extent. For example, when dining at the Alexandria (VA) Ruth Chris, I would prefer a seat near the window to see the Capitol building all lit up at night, but to apply this criterion to a fellow patron is going too far, in my opinion. For one thing, it is impossible to control and, for another, it leads to a stressful evening. I would rather enjoy my evening than entertain the following questions: Do I need to be worried when a table empties beside me? Will the maitre'd seat a backward capped dude beside me? Should I complain if he does? Did I bring my blood pressure pills?
> 
> Letting a fellow patron "ruin" your "perfect" evening because he isn't dressed right is not the way to live your life.


First, by fabricating the quote "ruin" you are creating quite the straw man there. Did you think no one would notice?
Second, I don't recall asking for your advice as to how to live my life and find your presumptuousness a bit odd.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I can agree with this to a certain extent. For example, when dining at the Alexandria (VA) Ruth Chris, I would prefer a seat near the window to see the Capitol building all lit up at night, but to apply this criterion to a fellow patron is going too far, in my opinion. For one thing, it is impossible to control and, for another, it leads to a stressful evening. I would rather enjoy my evening than entertain the following questions: Do I need to be worried when a table empties beside me? Will the maitre'd seat a backward capped dude beside me? Should I complain if he does? Did I bring my blood pressure pills?
> 
> Letting a fellow patron "ruin" your "perfect" evening because he isn't dressed right is not the way to live your life.


Arlington, man. That Ruth's is in Arlington. Way cooler than Alexandria. ic12337:


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## loarbmhs (Sep 17, 2011)

The backwards baseball cap affectation is sloppy and has no business anywhere--except on a catcher crouching behind the plate (home plate, not dining plate).


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Since we're on Ruth's Chris, why not talk about the more egregious sins of drowning a perfectly good steak in butter and serving it on a plate that is a bajillion degrees Fahrenheit? :biggrin2: 
My wife says I'm a snob for asking them to finish my steaks without butter and serve it on a room temperature plate.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

gr8w8er said:


> And on this, I can agree with you.


*hi-five*

It is the steak that binds us.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Tilton said:


> Arlington, man. That Ruth's is in Arlington. Way cooler than Alexandria. ic12337:


Sorry, I always mix up the two. Maybe that's why I'm always lost there. Thanks for the correction.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Mike Petrik said:


> First, by fabricating the quote "ruin" you are creating quite the straw man there. Did you think no one would notice?
> Second, I don't recall asking for your advice as to how to live my life and find your presumptuousness a bit odd.


I'm sorry that I offended you.


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## loarbmhs (Sep 17, 2011)

Hysterical. I haven't been there in a while, but I always dreaded the white-hot plate--and the splattering that occurs because of it.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

hardline_42 said:


> *hi-five*
> 
> It is the steak that binds us.


Particularly true on those occasions when one choses to have their steak(s) topped with a favorite cheese! LOL.


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## Marcc237 (Mar 22, 2004)

gr8w8er said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Which should it be? Does the waiter make a "snap judgement" and infer a better tip based on Table 7's natty (superior???) attire, or not? One way or the other, the waiter is unlikely to ignore his history of bad tips from [teachers/high school students/foreigners/vacationers] here. It is a truism that conclusions are drawn within moments of meeting for a reason.
> 
> ...


You are welcome. My family was in the restaurant business. One of the lessons my mother repeatedly instilled was that first impressions are wrong often enough that one should just do their job with equal enthusiasm and thing will balance out in the end. I drew my impression from your comment that "FWIW ... I'd wait on Mr. Hat all day and twice on Sunday before Mr & Mrs Talbot. Nothing like a pompous attitude to make a dining room stink." There is nothing in the original post or your comment that would permit me to conclude you had evidence upon which to proceed to form your judgments beyond the dress of the respective parties.


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## Marcc237 (Mar 22, 2004)

eagle2250 said:


> Marcc237: I don't specifically disagree with a word you typed, but think you may have missed my point, which was the guy wearing the baseball cap , as illustrated in the OP, probably didn't do so with an intent to insult anyone or to create an act of rebellion against conventional dress standards (whatever they may be these days!). He and his companion were simply there to enjoy a meal. You would be hard pressed to find a restaurant out here in Hoosierville and I doubt you could do so in the State of Maine that enforces the dress standards you embrace or even that I embrace. Very rarely do I go into a restaurant and I am not among the very best dressed in the establishment. My wife likes it like that and I enjoy pleasing her. However, I cannot remember once going into a restaurant out here in Hoosierville in which every gentleman was wearing a coat and tie. In real life out here in the real world, it just does not happen. All I am saying is don't let reality ruin your day!


I am mostly with you. The place of departure is that it does not ruin my day or even my meal. I think we can all observe and comment to each other without experiencing traumatic disappointment. That is the nature of this beast we post to. I also assume the guy in the baseball cap had no evil intent. I agree he was acting within his notion of appropriate. My observation is that is in some ways more sad.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Captain America said:


> Here's one man's views:
> 
> * people can be jerks about dress codes
> * people can dress offensively and immodestly
> ...


On all this I agree, except personally I don't find tattooed arms offensive and I'm willing to bet most people today don't either. Now, when someone has tattoos on their _face_, a zillion rings, or huge gauged earlobes then yes, it can be distracting and even kind of ugly to be frank. I wonder what some kids are thinking getting these things right as they turn 18. They need to consider the fact that, especially in lean economic times, you should make yourself as marketable as possible to prospective employers.

Naturally, there will be arguments to the extent of, "Well, I don't want to work for someone so shallow." Fine, then you don't want to eat either, I assume! There are only so many places willing to hire someone looking like that and most are minimum wage jobs. There's being an individual and then there's being realistic. To that end, there's no way I would show up to most interviews* in a three piece peak lapeled suit with 3/2 fastening, pinned collar shirt, and wholecut shoes with a pocket square. As much as _I_ may think it's correct, an expression of my inner self, and wouldn't be out of place in the "good old days", one still has to be realistic.

Sorry, I think I went on a tangent.

I'm curious though... why make a point of saying "single chicks"?

*I say "most" because undoubtedly there are a few fields that see dandyism as a virtue.



Snow Hill Pond said:


> To what end? To hang out with people who dress, look, and think exactly like me? How boring...and distressing...


Precisely why I think private schools can actually be actually detrimental to a child's development. They need a good dose of diversity so they know how to interact with it as adults.



adoucett said:


> A good five pages of entertainment here. This is my take on it:
> 
> As a college student where the vast majority of my peers are donning the aforementioned baseball cap look (or worse), it's easy to see where bad dress etiquette arises from.
> When I go out to eat, I try to dress for the establishment. A sub-shop does not require a tie, but if it was a nicer date and I wanted to improve my own appearance, I would try to make my attire fit the atmosphere (or improve upon it!)
> ...


A very sensible view.

I wouldn't rely on Yelp for anything though.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I'm sorry that I offended you.


More perplexed than offended, but your kind apology is accepted of course.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Captain America said:


> Me, I just am tired of seeing tatooed single chicks waltzing around the grocery store in droopy pajama bottoms. It makes me sad for American society and makes me lose hope for the future. Where's the personal pride?


Advice from one of my partners to his 18 year-old daughter: "Before you get a tattoo please first visualize grandma with one and realize that some day that will be you."


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Mike Petrik said:


> More perplexed than offended, but your kind apology is accepted of course.


Thank you sir.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Logan Circle Whole Foods last night: two women grocery shopping in onesie fleece pyjamas in animal prints (zebra, cow) and hair curlers. Could have been a joke, but they way the went about their business, this wasn't out of the norm for them.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

One of the best rants in months....


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Tilton said:


> Logan Circle Whole Foods last night: two women grocery shopping in onesie fleece pyjamas in animal prints (zebra, cow) and hair curlers. Could have been a joke, but they way the went about their business, this wasn't out of the norm for them.


I remember reading a story about this trend in the WSJ about 2-5 years ago. In the story, they described it as a big trend in Asia. Adults would come home from work and switch into PJs immediately and go about their afternoon/evening activities...whether in the home or outside. I got the impression that it was a status thing.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I remember reading a story about this trend in the WSJ about 2-5 years ago. In the story, they described it as a big trend in Asia. Adults would come home from work and switch into PJs immediately and go about their afternoon/evening activities...whether in the home or outside. I got the impression that it was a status thing.
> 
> View attachment 7739


I don't know a delicate way to say that these two ladies were not angling for a status upgrade. They were waiting at the stop for the bus to Shaw when I left. Shaw is where they put up the mobile command units (DCPD RVs full of SWAT guys) and "anti-crime lights" (giant mobile stadium-style lights to light up several blocks to deter crime) on weekend nights.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

More expensive restaurants should have basic dress codes. I can eat good steak at home, I go to a restaurant for the experience. 

You naysayers have ridiculously convoluted views on snobbism. Snobbism is aping ones superiors and talking down to ones inferiors. Not dining with pigs is simply good taste.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

And damn those single tattooed chicks! Damn them to heck!


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Bjorn said:


> And damn those single tattooed chicks! Damn them to heck!


 :icon_cheers:


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

Bjorn said:


> More expensive restaurants should have basic dress codes. I can eat good steak at home, I go to a restaurant for the experience.


Well stated. These types of threads always are amusing, and I guess that I can't resist the temptation to chime in. Unfortunately, it seems like business casual has evolved into a new era where sloppiness - even in an office environment or in an upscale restaurant - not only quietly is condoned but is socially acceptable and almost has become the norm. While I generally don't care what other people are wearing, I do feel as though people should display a certain respect and decorum for certain institutions (fine dining establishments and private clubs among them - not sure about "steakhouses", though some of them certainly fall into that category). What's going on here, with the backwards baseball hat, seems to be more of an example of "in your face" type dressing than someone simply failing to observe unspoken rules of decorum. All of that being said, I personally am much more offended by loud, belligerent loutish behavior in a nice restaurant than by someone dressed like they're going to a sporting event or hip hop concert. If the baseball cap-wearing patron in question otherwise was a perfect, well-behaved gentleman, his appearance probably wouldn't bother me all that much in the long run.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

FJW said:


> I wish someone would invent something that this guy could wear
> on his head to keep the sun out of his eyes!
> View attachment 7738


ROTFLMAO :biggrin:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Bjorn said:


> And damn those single tattooed chicks! Damn them to heck!





blue suede shoes said:


> :icon_cheers:


It's okay, you'll work up the courage eventually.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> More expensive restaurants should have basic dress codes. I can eat good steak at home, I go to a restaurant for the experience.
> 
> You naysayers have ridiculously convoluted views on snobbism. Snobbism is aping ones superiors and talking down to ones inferiors. Not dining with pigs is simply good taste.


Well said, Bjorn. Two lines and you got your point across very well. As always, brevity is the soul of wit.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

hardline_42 said:


> Since we're on Ruth's Chris, why not talk about the more egregious sins of drowning a perfectly good steak in butter and serving it on a plate that is a bajillion degrees Fahrenheit? :biggrin2:
> My wife says I'm a snob for asking them to finish my steaks without butter and serve it on a room temperature plate.


I'll give you the plate, but on the butter, I must exclaim, BLASPHEMY!


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

rwaldron said:


> I'll give you the plate, but on the butter, I must exclaim, BLASPHEMY!


I can understand a little bit of clarified butter brushed on for the sake of the sizzle, but an ice cream scoop's worth of of ultra-high milk fat butter just so they can parade a plate that sounds like an amplified MIG welder to your table? Not for me. It doesn't taste bad, but it disguises the flavor of the beef.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I can't say I'm a fan of butter either. What are your thoughts on béarnaise or diane sauce, though?


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

gr8w8er said:


> I'm going to love it, and enjoy my wife's company, her plunging neckline and my own sparkling cufflinks.


You've said plenty on this thread with which I disagree, but I'm quite certain I'd also enjoy your wife's plunging neckline.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

At first, I didn't like this thread. Then I liked it a little. Then it became about steak, and now I like it a lot.

Jovan, I eat steak as frequently as possible (for me, rarely*), but I find that as the quality of the cut increases, the need for sauces deceases. I also tend to go for medium -- well-done or beyond that, and then a sauce is a nice touch, but not an essential.

Who knows, though, my tastes may mature.


*I can't do anything with this pun, but I felt I should acknowledge it.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Sorry... extra butter for me!! Heck, I don't care if the thing is still sizzling when I take my last bite. You only live once.


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## emb1980 (Dec 28, 2012)

Jovan said:


> I can't say I'm a fan of butter either. What are your thoughts on béarnaise or diane sauce, though?


I'm personally partial to beurre rouge in sensible proportion to the cut of the meat. Its also remarkably easy to prepare at home and freezes well as a "stand by," although it is of course best freshly-prepared.

Bermaise is hit and miss for me, largely in proportion to the competence of the person preparing it. Bernaise would not typically be my first choice at any chain steak house.

Diane is much easier, and fine, but I can't recall the last time I ordered it.


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## emb1980 (Dec 28, 2012)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> but I find that as the quality of the cut increases, the need for sauces deceases.


This is a rather key point, and one many miss or misunderstand. For staters, Americans tend to fetishize tenderness, although there is often an inverse relationship between intrinsic flavor and tenderness. Thus, the filet is actually one of the most bland cuts of meat on the animal, and one a classically-trained chef would seldom serve without *relatively* agressive saucing and/or seasoning. Cuts like hanger, skirt, and so on are often considerably more flavorful, albeit exercise the teeth and jaws slightly more, and therefore do not require as much supplemental flavor. The tenderness issue can be alleviated by not overcooking the meat (medium rare is usually ideal), and of course buying the highest quality available. Some of the most flavorful cuts are those like short ribs, that often benefit from techniques such as braising that allow the measured breakdown of collagen fibers without drying out or over-cooking the meat.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

Are you guys here talking about Ruth's Chris steakhouse as a "high end" restaurant, or a good steak house? Excuse me, but I could never, ever consider a chain, either high class or good. Chain restaurants are a blasphemy.
Now, talk about being a snob, huh? But yeah, I really feel that way. And yeah, people should dress appropriately when eating out at a sit-down restaurant.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Getting way off topic here, but those who have not had a steak at Eddie Merlot's are missing something. Best steak house I've been in other than Bern's, chain or not. And I've eaten a lot of steak. (And my favorite is a NY strip, prepared black and blue ["Pittsburgh rare"] and otherwise naked. Yum.)


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Bjorn said:


> More expensive restaurants should have basic dress codes. I can eat good steak at home, I go to a restaurant for the experience. You naysayers have ridiculously convoluted views on snobbism. Snobbism is aping ones superiors and talking down to ones inferiors. Not dining with pigs is simply good taste.


You have concisely captured the essence of the argument that many of us are making - well done, Bjorn!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

FJW said:


> I wish someone would invent something that this guy could wear
> on his head to keep the sun out of his eyes!
> View attachment 7738


He needs some good sunglasses.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

> Me, I just am tired of seeing tattooed single chicks waltzing around the grocery store in droopy pajama bottoms. It makes me sad for American society and makes me lose hope for the future. Where's the personal pride?


Doesn't anyone take pride in the way they look these days? I mean wearing pajama bottoms to a grocery store? and slippers even.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

Jovan said:


> I can't say I'm a fan of butter either. What are your thoughts on béarnaise or diane sauce, though?


Maybe its just that I'm from New Orleans, but Filet Bearnaise could possibly be the greatest red meat dish on earth. If it isn't, then surely a thick Strip Steak with clarified butter on it must be.


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## emb1980 (Dec 28, 2012)

rwaldron said:


> Maybe its just that I'm from New Orleans, but Filet Bearnaise could possibly be the greatest red meat dish on earth. If it isn't, then surely a thick Strip Steak with clarified butter on it must be.


All of this talk of steak preparations has gotten me to thinking that one of the most memorable steak experiences I can recall was the time my wife and I decided to make Tournedos Rossini for some friends. Its completely anachronistic from a culinary standpoint, but over-the-top in all the right ways.  If you've never tried it, its worth a go some time if you're at a restaurant that does it well, or worth making if you can source some good foie gras and fresh black truffles.


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

Interesting that this thread now has transformed itself into a discussion of steak/steakhouses. Two quick points: 

I recently ate at Ruth's Chris while traveling on business. My wife and I used to love R's C when we were dating (late 1990s). To make a long story short, I didn't think that it was very good. The steak was just okay, and the extremely hot plate ruined the side dishes that I placed on it. Either I was young (when we really enjoyed R's C) and my tastes have matured, or R's C just isn't as good as it was (or a combination of the two). The service bordered on terrible, and the bill was high (even by upscale steakhouse standards) considering that two of my clients didn't even drink any alcoholic drinks.

I recently ate at Eddie Merlot's (mentioned upthread) in suburban Chicago. I was leery of the place, frankly, because of the name and the fact that it is a chain. (We went with another couple who had been there and had liked it.) I thought that the food was very good to excellent, but the service was somewhat amateurish for a restaurant in that price range. The atmosphere (in a suburban strip mall setting) reminded my wife and I of the Cheesecake Factory (not a compliment). We probably won't go back, but I agree that the steak was very good, and the rock shrimp appetizer was awesome. In fact, I would consider going back just because of the rock shrimp app.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Closed - off topic. Please start a new Thread about steaks on the Food, Drink And Travel Forum! 

You're making me hungry!


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