# Tartans make their debut



## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Gents, I'm pleased to report that the red tartan Bills made their debut this evening at the office Christmas party. 

As expected, I wore them with Press blazer, white ocbd, gold BB bow and cordovan weejuns. 

Generlly, reactions were positive. Lots of "nice pants", some snide, some real. Some of my favorites were, "you look like my father (or grandfather) 30 years ago." Success. And "Only you could pull those off, Tradly. My husband? Never. But you..." Excellent.

Hope to have a photo from the evening soon.

JB


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## Foghorn (Feb 2, 2005)

JT,
My personal favorite response is "Thank you, I was afraid you were gonna say something novel like C H E C K M A T E." Goes with the territory, there is always an amjack when you need one.
Regards,
F


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## JDDY (Mar 18, 2006)

Nice. Spread the good cheer! Looking forward to the pic. I'd love to have a pair- what could be better for a holiday party.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Nice outfit Joe. I can't wait to wear my Buchanan tartans to our Christmas party.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Sounds like it was a pretty successful debute for the "tartans," with much fun being had by all! Looking forward to seeing the pictures.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Here you go!


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## abc123 (Jun 4, 2006)

Excellent!


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

AMAZING!

my blackwatch pants are getting some action on the 25th.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

What's not to love? Are those 2" cuffs?


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

That is the epitome of tradaciousness, Mr. Tradly.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

tripreed said:


> What's not to love? Are those 2" cuffs?


They sure look big, don't they. No, they're full 1 3/4". too much break for me, but it's so hard to find a good tailor these days...

JB


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## Tom Bell-Drier (Mar 1, 2006)

very nice, I`m impressed. keep up the good work.


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## Keith T (May 15, 2006)

Nice pic. Beverage?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Very nice Joe. Those look great!


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Looking good! Tonite, I break out the Black Watch for a party at "The Club" we'll see what the reaction is to them 

Brian


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

Perfect holiday outfit. Three cheers for T'artangnan!


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

-move to crown Joe Tradly official AAAT spokesman-

Looking good there, ol' tart. If only I weren't so straight and married.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Lights were low at The Club tonite making the Black Watch that much more subtle, those who were close enough to see them did give me their approval.

Brian


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

vwguy,
Very nice indeed....soooo...do we get to see pics of the Blackwatch too? :icon_smile_big: Anyway, to echo Squire's recommendation for a crown, at least a full color several page spread in the trad handbook. Cheers


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

I didn't get anyone to take pics last night, but don't worry, I'll be wearing them again and will make sure to get pics then 

Brian


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Joe, the trousers, indeed the outfit, are/is incredible! Thanks for sharing.


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## pennc94 (Jan 26, 2006)

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing the photos. Where did you find those Bills tartans?


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Let my add my voice to the chorus of praise: you look _mahhvelous._


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Gentleman, your praise is most appreciated. Thank you.

VW: Can't wait to see the black watches. More subtle than the dress stewarts, and thus, I should think, more versitile.

Penn: Bill's, it seems, made a small run of these Tartans a few seasons ago. I found this pair at a Tradly little men's shop in Essex, CT called J Alden. Great, great store. They didn't *quite* fit, but the proprietor, anxious to clear them, offered me a deal I could not refuse for wool tartan M2s, and pointed out the 1.5 inches or so of "let out" fabric. Needless to say, I was sold.

Keith: I was hoping no one would point out the drink in my hand. It's a most untradly mix of gin and other crap. Problem was, it was a beer and wine bar, with two specialty drinks, that cranberry gin thing and a "pear-tini". Gag. So I went with the gin-based drink. I will admit to asking the bartender if he would just shake up a little gin and some of that lime juice into one of the available cocktail glasses...unfortunately, he said he could not. I suspect with a bigger tip he could have.... Alas. 

Can't wait to wear them again. Not sure when that'll be.

JB


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

I'm bumping this back up, because it 'tis the season! Who has worn their tartans so far this year?

edit: a photo from last year, the black shoes were due to a good bit of slush we had on the ground, forgive me 









Brian


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## Falstaff (Oct 18, 2007)

Joe, let me also heap on some praise. An oustanding Christmas look! Where does the bow come from?


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Well done, Joe! Very nice.:aportnoy:


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## Reddington (Nov 15, 2007)

Joe Tradly said:


> Here you go!


Very sharp!


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Excellent! No wonder you are 'Mr. Tradly'.



tripreed said:


> What's not to love?


Well, there is the lack of pocket square...


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

nice photos. Windsor has worn his Blackwatch trousers twice so far this Nov.-Dec.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

I wore the Black Watch yesterday but it seems pathetic compared to the efforts above. 

I like the Tartans as a kind of a happy, mirth-making pair of pants. But Tradly's effort last year is far beyond that. He has actually made this look not only fun, but actually cool. I wouldn't of even thought it was possible. Good show!


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Joe and VW,

Looks great. Have eyed tartans whenever I have seen them in J. Press, etc. Getting closer and closer to buying a pair.

Cheers, 

Ken


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## JohnnyVegas (Nov 17, 2005)

Alright, now I want a pair of tartans! You guys look sharp in those.


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

Joe Tradly said:


> Here you go!


*Bravissimo! *

hbs


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## BigDawgBarkin (Mar 2, 2007)

I'm wearing my Tartans (Hunting MacLeod I believe) today for the office "tree trimming"/casual party this afternoon. I haven't found a pair of red based Tartans in my size yet, but when I do I'm grabbing them (thanks to having been inspired by Joe Tradly's pic).

BDB


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

I feel slightly sorry for you guys! You have to wear Royal Stewart, Black Watch or other tartans that you have no connection with. Thankfully, my family has no less than three tartans of its own. This is the ancient.










If you wish to purchase tartan trousers, try this site - https://www.tartan-finder.com/. They sell trews with fishtail backs! You can also purchase kilts (naturally), blazers, jackets, ties, scarves etc in your clan or family tartan. You can also buy skirts, even miniskirts, for your wife or girlfriend. You gotta have the real thing!


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## jph712 (Mar 22, 2007)

Anyone know of a domstic (USA) source for tartan trousers, for other than standard fair? I have 3 Clan connections in the family, Campbell, MacMillan and MacGregor, and would like to find at least a pair in the Cambell Tartan, but would rather not pay $300.00.

Thanks,
JPH712


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

jph712 said:


> Anyone know of a domstic (USA) source for tartan trousers, for other than standard fair? I have 3 Clan connections in the family, Campbell, MacMillan and MacGregor, and would like to find at least a pair in the Cambell Tartan, but would rather not pay $300.00.
> 
> Thanks,
> JPH712


As a Campbell, I trust that you do not eat in McDonald's!

You ought to search the websites of the kiltmakers in Scotland. For cheaper tartan trousers try here - https://kiltstore.net/sr_stmwc_ksm600.html?theme=highlandwear:id=D5moA2C8 - remember to ask for a VAT deduction.


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## jph712 (Mar 22, 2007)

Nah the fries are better at The King. Thanks for the pointer.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> I feel slightly sorry for you guys! You have to wear Royal Stewart, Black Watch or other tartans that you have no connection with. Thankfully, my family has no less than three tartans of its own. This is the ancient.
> 
> If you wish to purchase tartan trousers, try this site - https://www.tartan-finder.com/. They sell trews with fishtail backs! You can also purchase kilts (naturally), blazers, jackets, ties, scarves etc in your clan or family tartan. You can also buy skirts, even miniskirts, for your wife or girlfriend. You gotta have the real thing!


From what I've read, anyone (Scot or not) can "technically" wear any of the Stewart tartans. A book I read several years ago (forget the title) stated that a Scot can wear any tartan...which I find hard to believe. Can anyone confirm this? I am remotely connected with the Buchanan clan but wear a Black Stewart kilt on occasion.

This thread has inspired me to buy a new pair of tartan trousers. I am kicking myself over purging my closet a few years ago and giving away a pair of Black Watch trousers!


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

TMMKC said:


> From what I've read, anyone (Scot or not) can "technically" wear any of the Stewart tartans. A book I read several years ago (forget the title) stated that a Scot can wear any tartan...which I find hard to believe. Can anyone confirm this? I am remotely connected with the Buchanan clan but wear a Black Stewart kilt on occasion.
> 
> This thread has inspired me to buy a new pair of tartan trousers. I am kicking myself over purging my closet a few years ago and giving away a pair of Black Watch trousers!


Royal Stewart is the correct choice for a Scot with no family connections to a clan or old family. There is no law to stop a Scot wearing any tartan. These days, football clubs have their own tartans that are popular with their supporters. The Buchanan tartan is very stylish and I would recommend it for your new trousers or trews. Once you have received and worn them, those given away Black Watch trousers will be a distant memory.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

^I was under just the opposite impression about Royal Stewart. I thought only the Royal Family (or those authorized by them) could wear Royal Stewart without guilt. But BoB, you are right, one would be breaking no laws if one did. (unlike arms) The closer one is to the "Scottish Community" (which approaches counter-culture level in the USA) the more pressure there is to posses an association with the tartan you wear. Luckily for non-Scots, there are lots of "universal" tartans. Some are listed on the "Tartans of Scotland" Web Site. https://www.tartans.scotland.net/index.cfm.htm

to wit: "There are quite a number of Universal Tartans. Hunting Stewart is one as are Black Watch, Caledonian, and Jacobite (assuming you have those sympathies). These are the older ones. There are now other modern ones such as Scottish National, Scottish National dress, National, Brave Heart Warrior (both dress and hunting), Flower of Scotland and Pride of Scotland."

Many states have tartans, as do all the US armed services. There is a USA tartan (in red white and blue, of course) almost ad infinitum.

BTW, the whole concept of "Clan Tartans" has no basis in historic fact (its a Victorian fallacy), but is still followed closely, nevertheless.

Scott


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Naval Gent said:


> Many states have tartans, as do all the US armed services. There is a USA tartan (in red white and blue, of course) almost ad infinitum.
> 
> Scott


Indeed. The tartan in my avatar (along with a scarf and tie) is that of the State of Connecticut.

JB


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## oldschoolprep (Jun 21, 2007)

*Great Holiday Attire*

Joe-

Very nice attire indeed. Too bad its only usually worn during the so-called Holiday Season. I think it looks great among the woodies, wicker picnic baskets, and nice spreads at college football tailgates from mid-October onward and a nice mid-winter blah break at a St. Valentine's Day cocktail party or any other excuse to have a festive social gathering.

I plan on wearing a very similar kit for our Christmas Party this Saturday evening. I am trying to find an old Stewart bow tie in my junk drawer or some other hiding place for Bo our Black Lab to wear. He was'nt too fond of the elf hat we forced on him last last year. However, he does a good job of tolerating the neckties we garb him in during home game tailgates.


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## sweetness360 (Dec 13, 2005)

Joe Tradly said:


> Indeed. The tartan in my avatar (along with a scarf and tie) is that of the State of Connecticut.
> 
> JB


Where'd you get the scarf and tie with the CT Tartan? I'd love to get something like that.


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

Naval Gent said:


> ^I was under just the opposite impression about Royal Stewart. I thought only the Royal Family (or those authorized by them) could wear Royal Stewart without guilt. But BoB, you are right, one would be breaking no laws if one did. (unlike arms) The closer one is to the "Scottish Community" (which approaches counter-culture level in the USA) the more pressure there is to posses an association with the tartan you wear. Luckily for non-Scots, there are lots of "universal" tartans. Some are listed on the "Tartans of Scotland" Web Site. https://www.tartans.scotland.net/index.cfm.htm
> 
> to wit: "There are quite a number of Universal Tartans. Hunting Stewart is one as are Black Watch, Caledonian, and Jacobite (assuming you have those sympathies). These are the older ones. There are now other modern ones such as Scottish National, Scottish National dress, National, Brave Heart Warrior (both dress and hunting), Flower of Scotland and Pride of Scotland."
> 
> ...


True, true, Scott.

I would only soften the terminology to read "Victorian fantasy." The whole "what's your tartan?" phenomenom got a massive shot in the arm from George VI and his descendents, notably Victoria. the arrival of the Industrial Revolution (and the power loom) in Scotland provided the necessary equipment for a 19th-century growth industry. 
Prior to 1746, most tartans were more likely to be associated with regions and districts; a notable exception being the so-called Government Sett, better known as Black Watch, which was originally used for clothing the Independent Companies raised in the 1720s and 1730s to patrol the ever-restless Highlands. Subsequently, the pattern, sometimes with variously-coloured overstripes, was used by most of the Highland regiments raised in the late 18th-early 19th centuries. The same tartan is suspiciouly similar to a number of modern tartans attributed to various branches of Clan Campell, a family grouping noted for its support of the House of Hanover in the risings of 1715 and 1745. 
Royal Stewart is worn by pipers of the Royal Highland Regiment (Black Watch) and Scots Guards, both units being termed "Royal."

More than you ever *really* wanted to know...

Have a great weekend, all!

hbs


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## tntele (Apr 12, 2007)

JT,

Where did you get your tartan Bill's? Did they make them in Blackwatch also? Thanks

TN


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

TN:



Joe Tradly said:


> Penn: Bill's, it seems, made a small run of these Tartans a few seasons ago. I found this pair at a Tradly little men's shop in Essex, CT called J Alden. Great, great store. They didn't *quite* fit, but the proprietor, anxious to clear them, offered me a deal I could not refuse for wool tartan M2s, and pointed out the 1.5 inches or so of "let out" fabric. Needless to say, I was sold.
> 
> JB


Remember, this was written last year, and I bought them in the summer of '06, which leads me to believe they were from the winter of '05-'06 at least. As far as I can tell, he did them for one season, but don't quote me on that. I'm also not certain of the other tartans he made, but I know there were others. They used to have an "archive" of sorts on their website (didn't they?) which had them, but I don't see that any more.

They come up on the 'bay from time to time.

Falstaff: bow is a solid gold repp silk from brooks. The gold is particularly nice, sort of an old gold rather than bright.

JB


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## OscarTheWild (Jan 8, 2004)

*humble contribution to tartan thread*

Made my contribution
https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=672804&postcount=5865


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

I forgot to post up this picture after it was taken.

This is Christmas morning, I had just opened the new duffle coat, and we laughed out loud that the tartan wool lining was the same, or at least very similar to the same trousers I was wearing!

enjoy.

JB










PS, don't mind the dog's posterior.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Irredeemably naff.

Only in America.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

JB-
Great picture


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

Great picture. Who made the duffle coat?



Joe Tradly said:


> I forgot to post up this picture after it was taken.
> 
> This is Christmas morning, I had just opened the new duffle coat, and we laughed out loud that the tartan wool lining was the same, or at least very similar to the same trousers I was wearing!
> 
> ...


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

Kingstonian said:


> Irredeemably naff.
> 
> Only in America.


Maybe the coat lining and matching trousers are naff -- the whole point for J.T.'s post, yes? -- but the Stewart holiday-party attire is wonderful.

(Thanks for resurrecting this thread, J.Trad! I missed it the first time around. To be sure, very sharp. It looks like you're on the set of a catalog shoot, only better: art directors don't have the benefit of using shirts that have been back and forth from the cleaners for a year. Nice, nice!)


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

egadfly said:


> Keep up the good work, friend, and you may soon have your answer.
> 
> EGF


What you get banned for a simple observation now 

*No. You can get banned for stupid, baseless observations. A well-gounded observation might read:*

*"He doesn't look Scottish ..."*

*Advance warning: you can easily get banned for public arguing with moderators.*


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Kingstonian said:


> What you get banned for a simple observation now


That's not it and you know it. You are purposely trying to stir things up and that's not welcome here.

Brian


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## TweedyDon (Aug 31, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> You can also buy skirts, *even miniskirts*, for your wife or girlfriend...


Ok, I'm sold! :icon_smile_wink:


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## meb110 (Dec 1, 2008)

*Red Tartan...Coat?*

I've recently purchased a pair of the red Stuart tartan pants pictured in the earliest photo. I like the look with a navy blazer, but I wonder if I can wear my black and white herringbone jacket with them too. Is that pattern overkill? It's a traditional jacket that I purchased last winter at Brooks Bros.

I'm trying to get more use out of that jacket and trying to pair it with more than black trousers. Recently pulled off navy flannel trousers - also from Brooks - very well. Any other suggestions welcome too. Thanks!


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

FWIW, I saw tartan trousers at a Hickey Freeman outlet store Black Friday. There was Black Watch, and a red pattern-sorry, don't know the name or if it is a "real" tartan. Ben Silver has some on clearance, IIRC.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

JohnnyVegas said:


> Alright, now I want a pair of tartans!


Here you go, Johnny. Sleep well in 'em


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

tripreed said:


> What's not to love?


That awful clashing carpet...


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

This thread more than most seems to bring out the trolls. Amazing.

JB


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Just an aside, most tartan trousers you might buy are made in a scaled down sett. Scottish made trews, whether civilian or military, are made in the full sized setts, same as for kilts, and are often equally heavy weights. That could be anywhere form 13 to 18 oz. The latter being common in most military gear.

Not cheap, but good value, in trews is available from Geoffrey Tailor of the Royal Mile in Edinburgh. 100s of authentic tartans from their own mill and others. MTM of good quality workmanship, and every detail of your choosing: fish back, side adjusters, even satin or grain stripe if you want to pair them with a black DJ.

Full disclosure, I have 2 pairs from them as well as 3 of my kilt jackets.

They travel to the US 2 times a year;



SCOTTISH FESTIVALS AND
CITY VISITS ACROSS THE USA
CALL TOLL FREE ON:
1-800 566 1467


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Joe Tradly said:


> This thread more than most seems to bring out the trolls. Amazing.
> 
> JB


It certainly brings out pajama bottoms. 

.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Joe Tradly said:


> Here you go!


Nice "trews" to give them their proper Scottish name, nice jacket, nice shirt, nice hair...but sorry.....with loafers? And non-black loafers at that! As the picture loaded I was waiting to see a lovely pair of shiny black (not necessarily patent) lace ups, like the Scottish officers wear with their trews:icon_smile: Ah well, each to his own. Looking good anyway.:icon_smile:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Literide said:


> Just an aside, most tartan trousers you might buy are made in a scaled down sett. Scottish made trews, whether civilian or military, are made in the full sized setts, same as for kilts, and are often equally heavy weights. That could be anywhere form 13 to 18 oz. The latter being common in most military gear.
> 
> Not cheap, but good value, in trews is available from Geoffrey Tailor of the Royal Mile in Edinburgh. 100s of authentic tartans from their own mill and others. MTM of good quality workmanship, and every detail of your choosing: fish back, side adjusters, even satin or grain stripe if you want to pair them with a black DJ.
> 
> ...


You are always one step ahead of me in your responses Sir! :icon_smile:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

vwguy said:


> I'm bumping this back up, because it 'tis the season! Who has worn their tartans so far this year?
> 
> edit: a photo from last year, the black shoes were due to a good bit of slush we had on the ground, forgive me
> 
> ...


I know you wrote this almost a year ago now Brian, but I must address this, having also just seen Joe in oxblood loafers and trews. My question is thish, why are you apologising for black shoes? In the UK black shoes ONLY are and should be worn with trews, regardless of the colours of the tartan.
You will never see a Scottish soldier, officer or dinner guest in anything but black shoes when wearing his regimental or clan trews.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> Irredeemably naff.
> 
> Only in America.


You don't get out of London much then to Scotland or to country house dinners. And you clearly don't get invited to any of the London dinners of the various Scottish associations, clubs or regiments. Last time I was in the officer's mess at Chelsea Barracks in 94, while the Scots Guards were on station, there were plenty of chaps in trews.

Your comment "only in America" is pure nonsense!


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> As the picture loaded I was waiting to see a lovely pair of shiny black (not necessarily patent) lace ups ...


Joe Tradly, how about a pair of *ghillie brogues *(with shorter laces for town)? Well worth considering.

You can purchase them here: 









 .


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> And how about a pair of *ghillie brogues *(with shorter laces for town)?
> 
> .


Funny you should mention it....but although it might work I think the significance would be lost on most and they'd just see a pair of B & H shoes looking a bit odd wth red trousers. You see I always feel that ghillie brogues should never be worn with formal or semi-formal trousers of any kind. With tweeds yes, and cords, and of course kilts. But not with trews and a blazer, but that's probably just me. :icon_smile:

Black monks and plain black Oxfords work very well with trews


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> You see I always feel that ghillie brogues should never be worn with formal or semi-formal trousers of any kind. With tweeds yes, and cords, and of course kilts. But not with trews and a blazer, but that's probably just me. :icon_smile:


I agree with you in spirit, but reckon that Joe Tradly (and more than a few other Yanks) wears such trousers in a lighthearted way to add a touch of 'holiday fun' to formal, semi-formal or business cocktail events. I wouldn't recommend that Joe Tradly wear ghillies with an evening jacket and tartan trews, but the shoes would be in keeping with a 'business cocktail' blue blazer and 'American Christmas cheer' trousers.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> You are always one step ahead of me in your responses Sir! :icon_smile:


Cheers your Lordship.
Agree very much on the black shoes but some of my fellow Americans will always insist on oxblood or cordo loafers at sport coat or blazer levels of formality.

Ghillie brogues in patent I wear with a kilt in the evening, but with trews I like my Alden black cordo monks with a brogued cap toe. Somewhat military but with a "Yank" twist. If evening with an DJ or SJ, its calf pumps or Prince Alberts.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Literide said:


> ...with trews I like my Alden black cordo *monks* with a brogued cap toe.


Monk straps with trews -- brilliant! Strikes just the right chord.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> You don't get out of London much then to Scotland or to country house dinners. And you clearly don't get invited to any of the London dinners of the various Scottish associations, clubs or regiments. Last time I was in the officer's mess at Chelsea Barracks in 94, while the Scots Guards were on station, there were plenty of chaps in trews.
> 
> Your comment "only in America" is pure nonsense!


My Lordship,
if I were to dine, as a civilian, in the mess of a Scottish regiment wearing trews and my sturdy black monks, what would you recomend above the waist?

Cheers,


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Monk straps with trews -- brilliant! Strikes just the right chord.


Glad you approve


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Literide said:


> Glad you approve


You're very welcome, Literide.

All pajama kidding aside, the one jarring detail in Joe Tradly's ensemble is his _gold_-coloured bowtie. Paired with the trews, it's Christmas-y to the edge of overkill, akin to those animatronic holiday figurines bobbing about in department store windows. I mean this as an observation, not an insult. Joe's having fun and that's what matters most ... but we can all stand a touch of constructive criticism.

.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> the one jarring detail in Joe Tradly's ensemble is his _gold_-coloured bowtie. Paired with the trews, it's Christmas-y to the edge of overkill.


So, you'd prefer, what...a green bow with red Santas or candy canes?

I think the monochrome bow tones the whole thing down a notch. A patterned bow tie would've been much busier. Gold is a good choice, as red or green would be a bit too "matchy."


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Topsider said:


> So, you'd prefer, what...a green bow with red Santas or candy canes?
> 
> I think the monochrome bow tones the whole thing down a notch. A patterned bow tie would've been much busier. Gold is a good choice, as red or green would be a bit too "matchy."


Agree on the solid tie with tartan trou, but I probably would have gone with a blue different than the jacket, rather than a gold.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Topsider said:


> So, you'd prefer, what...a green bow with red Santas or candy canes?


A valid question. I'd prefer a solid-colored silk jacquard bow tie in burgundy, mulberry, or a slightly lighter blue than the navy of the blazer.

Mulberry jacquard:

Slightly lighter blue jacquard:

.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

I like the gold bow rather than one of the other colors offered. I never would have thought of it (prob. would have worn a silk knit or other solid blue long tie, perhaps a quiet emblematic), but that gold bow looks perfect with the outfit.

It's not Christmas for me until I see this post re-surface!


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

paper clip said:


> I like the gold bow rather than one of the other colors offered.


Fair enough, but why do you prefer the gold bow over, say, "solid blue [or] quiet emblematic"? I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> A valid question. I'd prefer a solid-colored silk jacquard bow tie in burgundy, mulberry, or a slightly lighter blue than the navy of the blazer.


He's not attending a Christmas funeral, is he? 

I'll take the gold one over either of those.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Topsider said:


> He's not attending a Christmas funeral, is he?


Nor Macy's Christmas parade. 

Now now. There's nothing remotely funereal about semi-shiny blue, burgundy or mulberry...except in New Orleans.:icon_smile:

The trews carry the outfit to the edge, which is fine; but the golden bow sends it over the cliff for me. Just an opinion, nothing more.

.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I know you wrote this almost a year ago now Brian, but I must address this, having also just seen Joe in oxblood loafers and trews. My question is thish, why are you apologising for black shoes? In the UK black shoes ONLY are and should be worn with trews, regardless of the colours of the tartan.
> You will never see a Scottish soldier, officer or dinner guest in anything but black shoes when wearing his regimental or clan trews.


I think Blackwatch especially looks better w/ burgunday/cordovan shoes, at least at our casual American Christmas parties.

And for the record, I like Joe's gold bowtie.

Brian


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> A valid question. I'd prefer a solid-colored silk jacquard bow tie in burgundy, mulberry, or a slightly lighter blue than the navy of the blazer.
> 
> Mulberry jacquard:
> 
> ...


++ on the jaquards. The shiny, satiny solid may be the problem.
Another possibility could be blue or maroon with small club or school motif.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Literide said:


> ++ on the jaquards. The shiny, satiny solid may be the problem.
> Another possibility could be blue or maroon with small club or school motif.


Agreed. Some widely-spaced pin dots would work too.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Topsider said:


> He's not attending a Christmas funeral, is he?
> 
> I'll take the gold one over either of those.


Top, you my friend...crack me up!:icon_smile_big:

I think the gold bow tones it down as well, love the whole look.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> I think the gold bow tones it down as well...


Interesting. I respectfully suggest that it does the opposite.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Interesting. I respectfully suggest that it does the opposite.


I am just not a big fan of mixing a bunch of different patterns together especially with tartan pants, they are busy enough all by themselves.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> I am just not a big fan of mixing a bunch of different patterns together especially with tartan pants, they are busy enough all by themselves.


Good point, well taken. One solution would be, say, a solid-colored maroon bow made of barathea silk. A nice, subtle texture without any strong pattern...and without the strident sheen of satin.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Good point, well taken. One solution would be, say, a solid-colored maroon bow made of barathea silk. A nice, subtle texture without any strong pattern...and without the strident sheen of satin.


That would look very nice as well. I also liked the other two selections you suggested, just not with the tartans.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Good point, well taken. One solution would be, say, a solid-colored maroon bow made of barathea silk. A nice, subtle texture without any strong pattern...and without the strident sheen of satin.


A shame. My solid-colored barathea silk maroon bow was in the shop that week.

JB


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Joe Tradly said:


> A shame. My solid-colored barathea silk maroon bow was in the shop that week.
> 
> JB


Joe you have inspired me for the Christmas party! I showed your picture to my girlfriend and she loved it as do I. Very smart looking! Maybe I can borrow that tie???


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Joe Tradly said:


> A shame. My solid-colored barathea silk maroon bow was in the shop that week.
> 
> JB


It isn't yours until you buy it and take it out of the shop. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> Maybe I can borrow that tie???


No need to borrow, kiddo. You can get one here: https://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/dress-up/acc/ties/gold-bow-tie.html


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> No need to borrow, kiddo. You can get one here: https://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/dress-up/acc/ties/gold-bow-tie.html


My goodness you're an ass.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Joe Tradly said:


> My goodness you're an ass.


You're taking yourself too seriously, Joe. This hasn't been a personal attack, but a commentary on a bow tie. That's it.


Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Joe's having fun and that's what matters most ... but we can all stand a touch of constructive criticism.


.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> You're taking yourself too seriously, Joe. Lighten up and be content .


Actually, I think Joe was just giving you some constructive criticism. You know, like you gave him?


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Topsider said:


> Actually, I think Joe was just giving you some constructive criticism. You know, like you gave him?


As in, don't be a golden ass for the holidays? :icon_viking: Understood, old boy. No harm meant.

.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Topsider said:


> Actually, I think Joe was just giving you some constructive criticism. ...


As in, don't be a golden ass for the holidays, Gingrich Fan? :icon_viking: Understood, old boy. No harm meant.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Fair enough, but why do you prefer the gold bow over, say, "solid blue [or] quiet emblematic"? I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
> 
> .


I like the gold bow because It's not something I would have thought of and it looks great. I'm not saying I would wear it to a meeting or church or even dinner out with my wife - it does work well however for a Christmas party - a very festive event. I could also see wearing it to a Christmas themed symphony concert or other such event.

A solid blue bow or navy with small emblematic would tone the pants down a bit in my eyes, making it more suitable for a dinner out or an other-than- Christmas themed party.

W/r/t burgundy, I don't think that burgundy goes with the red of the pants, while the gold or navy blue does.


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

A lot of you should post at the London lounge.

https://thelondonlounge.net/

Please


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

paper clip said:


> I like the gold bow because It's not something I would have thought of and it looks great. I'm not saying I would wear it to a meeting or church or even dinner out with my wife - it does work well however for a Christmas party - a very festive event. I could also see wearing it to a Christmas themed symphony concert or other such event.
> 
> A solid blue bow or navy with small emblematic would tone the pants down a bit in my eyes, making it more suitable for a dinner out or an other-than- Christmas themed party.
> 
> W/r/t burgundy, I don't think that burgundy goes with the red of the pants, while the gold or navy blue does.


Thanks very much, Paper Clip.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Duck said:


> A lot of you should post at the London lounge.
> 
> https://thelondonlounge.net/
> 
> Please


And why is that Duck??


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Monk straps with trews -- brilliant! Strikes just the right chord.


Like I said, both monks and Oxfords look good with trews


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> And why is that Duck??


Because he said so, that's why. :icon_smile_wink:

_"Why a duck?"_ - Chico Marx


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

I took it to mean he doesn't appreciate all of the posts or maybe the content...just curious that's all. Either way I will be curious to read his reply.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> I took it to mean he doesn't appreciate all of the posts or maybe the content.


Likewise.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Likewise.


I guess we could always scamper off and create our own little private Utopia! :icon_smile_big:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Literide said:


> My Lordship,
> if I were to dine, as a civilian, in the mess of a Scottish regiment wearing trews and my sturdy black monks, what would you recomend above the waist?
> 
> Cheers,


Well sir, a few things I need to tell you first about British armed forces and even police messes. And after I've told you those few things you'll realise that I still haven't answered your question but you'll also see why:icon_smile_wink:

Right to start with, all messess from the ranks messes to junior NCOs to senior NCOs to officers' messes have their own rules, regulations and peculiarities; and from regiment to regiment and even police force to police force they can vary wildly. But nothing is more like a mine field ready to trip you up at every turn than a Scottish military mess or even a Scottish dinner & dance.

The very first thing you need to know is this (and this now is where I don't answer your question and also where you see why:icon_smile_wink

Unless the CO of a Scottish regiment gives you express permission to wear tartan in one of his regiment's messes then you simply don't do it.
Nothing is more important than that.

However the military SOs for the wearing of tartan, also state that in military circumstances tartan should only be worn by personnel of a unit entitled to wear it. So again, don't do it!

In other words, if you were, for arguments sake, invited by Captain McGregor to dine with him at his mess then you would not wear trews.

However, if the CO invited in civilians to a dinner and dance, the invite would clearly state dress code.

Now, assuming the CO allows tartan then you should really only wear a tartan you are entitled to wear or one of the public tartans, of which the original "Universal" (Black Watch) is the most well known and the first tartan to be called the "universal tartan". 
Nowadays the term "universal tartan" is used to mean any "open" tartan.

However, do not break the following two rules: 
1.Regimental tartans are for use by members of that regiment only.
2.Royal tartans are for use by the Royal Family only.

I quite often used to attend the formal Scottish dancing evenings in the basement function hall of St. Columbs Church (Church of Scotland) in Chelsea, usually when I was on duty. So I always attended in full police uniform, and always in the proper "ink" serge tunic with silver buttons and whistle chain, not one of those awful Goretex anoraks. I often had some old biddy taking me for a swing round the room and me in full uniform. 
You see these evenings were full Highland Dress or a uniform, nothing else permitted not even black tie.

While I'm flowing I might as well cover another point. There is Highland Dress and Lowland Dress just as there are Highland regiments and Lowland reigments. 
Lowland reigments now wear what may be described as a semi-Highland uniform in that they wear tartan trews.
Highland regiments only wear the kilt.

When trews were introduced at the end of the 19th C. they were of the "Universal" tartan (Black Watch) also often called the "government" or "military" tartan.

The Black Watch - the oldest higland regt by the way- was one of the few regts to stick with the universal tartan on its kilts, and that is why it became known as the BW tartan. It's a Campbell tartan originally. 
The pipers of the BW like the pipers of the Scots Guards wear the Royal Stewart.

Then another curious thing is that not all Scottish regiments have a tartan.And in some Scottish regiments only the pipers wear tartan.

The other old "open" (or universal as so many now say) tartans are
the Hunting Stewart, the Caledonian, and the Jacobite.

Then of course there are quite a few new "open" tartans, e.g. Scottish National, Irish National. And various regional and county tartans.

Blimey...how did I end up drifting all the way over here....

I hope that answers your question:icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_wink: :icon_smile_big:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> I took it to mean he doesn't appreciate all of the posts or maybe the content...just curious that's all. Either way I will be curious to read his reply.


Perhaps CCC you should find out what the London Lounge is (if you don't know already) before jumping to conclusions.:icon_smile_wink: I think Duck was actually being complimentary. The London Lounge is basically a forum very like this one. I read it occasionally but I'm not a member...yet.

Or perhaps you do know what it is and still consider it a slight that we should be referred there by Duck.....:icon_smile_big::icon_smile_wink:


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Perhaps CCC you should find out what the London Lounge is (if you don't know already) before jumping to conclusions.:icon_smile_wink: I think Duck was actually being complimentary. The London Lounge is basically a forum very like this one. I read it occasionally but I'm not a member...yet.
> 
> Or perhaps you do know what it is and still consider it a slight that we should be referred there by Duck.....:icon_smile_big::icon_smile_wink:


I am familiar with it but like you, I am not a member there. There was just something in that post, maybe not intentional, that smacked of arrogance on his part.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> There was just something in that post, maybe not intentional, that smacked of arrogance on his part.


I think it was the "please" that Duck ended his post with.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> I am familiar with it but like you, I am not a member there. There was just something in that post, maybe not intentional, that smacked of arrogance on his part.


yea, possibly, I know what you mean...but I'm prepared to give him the b.o.t.d.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> I think it was the "please" that Duck ended his post with.


That would be it! Almost as if we were bothering him by posting here.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> I think it was the "please" that Duck ended his post with.


Now, I didn't see the word please under the link until now.

So is he a member on LL over here on a recruting drive & he likes what he sees here.

Or does he want to get rid of some of us from here because he doesn't like what he's reading....

hhhm.....CCC...I'm now not so sure myself. And I see even more now where you're coming from.

But shall we all just be optimistic good hearted chaps and assume (pretend) he was just looking for new members? :icon_smile_wink:

OR not!....:devil:


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

No arrogance. The London Lounge is a great place that has more of the British feeling than the Ivy sway on this board. Certainly your opinions are appreciated here but they fall onto a crowd of devout "trad" followers. London Lounge is a place where they would be appreciated more. Never intended anything to you Earl or Arnold.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Duck said:


> No arrogance. The London Lounge is a great place that has more of the British feeling than the Ivy sway on this board. Certainly your opinions are appreciated here but they fall onto a crowd of devout "trad" followers. London Lounge is a place where they would be appreciated more. Never intended anything to you Earl or Arnold.


My apologies for taking it out of context. However, I can assure you that I am much more Ivy than British.


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Now, I didn't see the word please under the link until now.
> 
> So is he a member on LL over here on a recruting drive & he likes what he sees here.
> 
> ...


Not a member there but I enjoy reading it. It seems that a lot of British stylists have been posting in the "trad" section telling us how we are doing it wrong. I enjoy reading about it though, because I am unfamiliar with the British style of dress on the whole and I enjoy learning about anything that is new to me.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Duck said:


> No arrogance. The London Lounge is a great place that has more of the British feeling than the Ivy sway on this board. Certainly your opinions are appreciated here but they fall onto a crowd of devout "trad" followers. London Lounge is a place where they would be appreciated more. Never intended anything to you Earl or Arnold.


Ah. Understood now. Thank you, Duck! Yes, the London Lounge is a treasury, nothing less.

I reckoned that the "devout 'trad' follower" who initiated this thread wouldn't mind some well-meaning (if occasionally cheeky) opinions and suggestions. In the end, it wasn't worth it. So..._à chacun son goût. _


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Yea, I'm only codding with youDuck. I never really thought you meant anything ill by your comment...not like that ghastly suspicious paranoid CCC chap :icon_smile_wink:

I like the London Lounge as well..but it's not really my cup of cha:icon_smile:


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Ah. Understood now. Thank you, Duck! Yes, the London Lounge is a treasury, nothing less.
> 
> I reckoned that the "devout 'trad' follower" who initiated this thread wouldn't mind some well-meaning (if occasionally cheeky) opinions and suggestions. In the end, it wasn't worth it. So..._à chacun son goût. _


Sometimes, new things are a hard pill to swallow. I do enjoy learning new things or I would have started posting here. I shall remember, "Vous apprendrez quelque chose de nouveau tous les jours."


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Yea, I'm only codding with youDuck. I never really thought you meant anything ill by your comment...not like that ghastly suspicious paranoid CCC chap :icon_smile_wink:
> 
> I like the London Lounge as well..but it's not really my cup of cha:icon_smile:


Aha!

Now lets talk about what types of socks to wear with tartans...


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Yea, I'm only codding with youDuck. I never really thought you meant anything ill by your comment...not like that ghastly suspicious paranoid CCC chap :icon_smile_wink:
> 
> I like the London Lounge as well..but it's not really my cup of cha:icon_smile:


:icon_smile_big:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

N'est pas!?!


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Duck said:


> Aha!
> 
> Now lets talk about what types of socks to wear with tartans...


Solids, yes? Not gold, though. :icon_smile_wink:

I'd not want my socks to compete with the tartan trews. The sock material and thickness would depend on the type of event -- and the weather.

.


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Just messing around a little, trying to get back in the flow of clothes. Solids, nothing else would work.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

How about these?

https://www.babyblingthing.com/images/White-Gold-Spar...


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> How about these?
> 
> https://www.babyblingthing.com/images/White-Gold-Spar...


Very festive.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Sock with trews should be black or dark green. End of list. 

Knee length socks with kilts, should also be one of only a handful of solid colours - cream, tan, black, various shades of green.
(navy and saffron also but usually only with Irish kilts)

Depending on 
1. the occasion - formal, casual or outdoors
2. the shoes worn
3. the tartan

Casually I wear cream or green socks with brown brouges and a BW kilt 
Or I wear black socks with black brouges - semi-formal

Highland Dress (black tie) - always cream socks and shiny black shoes.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Unless the CO of a Scottish regiment gives you express permission to wear tartan in one of his regiment's messes then you simply don't do it.
> 
> Nothing is more important than that.


If your Lordship could be so kind as to condescend to a question:

So if Angus MacLelland, civilian, is invited to dine with the officers the 3rd Battalion, Royal Highland Regiment, he would be compelled to wear a plain suit rather than trews or kilt in "his" MacLelland sett? (in the prescribed level of formality, of course, black tie, day dress, etc.) Why?

Scott


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Naval Gent said:


> If your Lordship could be so kind as to condescend to a question:
> 
> So if Angus MacLelland, civilian, is invited to dine with the officers the 3rd Battalion, Royal Highland Regiment, he would be compelled to wear a plain suit rather than trews or kilt in "his" MacLelland sett? (in the prescribed level of formality, of course, black tie, day dress, etc.) Why?
> 
> Scott


Yes, this does beg elaboration as highland, or for that matter lowland, evening wear is entirely fungible with a dinner jacket for black tie occasions.

What is to stop a civilian gentleman, invited to the mess, from wearing "his" tartan kilt and formal evening jacket.

And consider my own situation, wherein my "clan" tartan is precisely the same as a famous regimental tartan. Said regiment has been amalgamated, but were I to dine with the officers of the Royal Regiment of Scotland, there is a good chance someone present would have once worn "my" tartan as part of his uniform. Might he be offended or honored? 
PS: It is a widely and commercially available tartan.

Cheers


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Ok, an answer to the Naval Gent and your good self Literide.

First and foremost, it is very rare for civlians to dine in an officers mess. So the situation is close to hypothetical but I can't rule it out, because I know that it happens. However, formal mess (dining-in) nights are officers only. 

Anyway you're both kind of asking a question I've kind of already answered.
The CO or his adjutant acting on his orders have the last say regarding who and/or what can enter the mess. Then the officer of the day is responsible for ensuring the Mess regs in SOs are followed.

Like I said SOs (standing orders) are sometimes extremely detailed regaring messes and often quite peculiar. 


It makes quite interesting and amusing reading if you can find any Officers Mess Regulations on the net. And of course the earlier they are (for example, First world War) the odder they are. 

And also as I said before the whole tartan issue in Scottish messes is a minefield. 

In the past some highland regiments did not permit Lowland dress (i.e. trews) in the mess from ANYONE!

How do I know all this? A vast military library and some good old books on Scotland and tartans. Plus an old police colleague in the early 90s who, like quite a few police officers, served in the TA on a few weekends a year. Ian served in the London Scottish Regiment TA - which is now 'A' company of the London Regiment. Prior to joing the Met Police he had served in the regular army in some signals or police unit of some Scottish regiment, I can't remember which.

Now when he and I were on patrol, especially night patrol, as two old soldiers we spent a lot of time chatting about military matters and all the associated trivia that no one except the initiated know and that you can't find on the net.

For example, that my RAF beret badge was black not staybright metal like 99% of RAF badges. Why? Becasue I served on one of only 4 RAF Regiment Field Squadrons that did tours of Northern Ireland. 

I'll give you another reallty odd example, this time from the police world. Apart from the small number of British Transport Police and Royal Parks Police, Central London has two police forces that patrol the streets: the Met police and the City Police. The latter are only responsible for "the square mile" otherwise known as the City of London (which is a London borough), to the west of which is the borough called the City of Westminster and to the east the borough called Tower Hamlets.

Now one of the City Police stations is in Snow Hill, and that station was regualry visited by Met officers.

Now when you enter their mess there is a sign on the wall in the cloakroom with a regulation No, for arugments sake 27, stating the following:

Regulation No. 27:
City police officers only to use the top row of helmet and cap hooks
Metropolitan police officers and Traffic Wardens to use the lower row. 

Odd, you might think.

But when you realise that the minimum height for a City Police officer is 6' and most of them are well over that anyway. And that there are no minimum heights for Met police officers or Traffic Wardens and then look at the placing of the hooks you understand why.

The top row is placed at about 7 and a half feet, the idea being that only the city cops should be able to reach it.
The bottom row is placed at about 5 ft.

But I always flouted this reg and always hung my helmet on the top row, which being 6' I could reach. I was always sure the City police were taking the piss! :icon_smile_big: Just having a laugh at the expense of their on average somewhat shorter colleagues from the Met. 

Until I saw exactly the same sign and set up in another City Police canteen.

The police and military worlds are loaded with such regs. 

Another one, a quite standard mess reg really, is that you can't enter the mess without a cap or beret, but you have to take it off as soon as you come in. In other words you can't enter the mess if you're not in full uniform but the second you walk through the door you remove your headgear. 
And all messes in my experience had mess orderlies and mess officers on duty, so these regs were adhered to.

Another police one, this time logical, was that if you were the only police officer in the mess (civvies are allowed in police messes) you weren't allowed to turn your comms. radio off. But if there were lots of officers then you could, as long as at least one radio was left on.

Bottom line, in the unlikely event that you ever receive an invitation, for arguments sake black tie, to the rare occasion of a civilians invited do in a Scottish offivers mess you'd have to ask the CO or the Officer of the day if it would be permitted for you to attend in your own tartan and if so if trews would be acceptable. 

Ian assured me that only military personnel were allowed to wear tartan in his mess in Fife.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Ok, an answer to the Naval Gent and your good self Literide.
> 
> First and foremost, it is very rare for civlians to dine in an officers mess. So the situation is close to hypothetical but I can't rule it out, because I know that it happens. However, formal mess (dining-in) nights are officers only.
> 
> ...


My Lordship,
Thank you for sharing all that nuance and anecdotes. Indeed, my dining in the mess of a Scottish regiment is highly speculative. Always wanted to since I saw "Tunes of Glory" though.

Incidently, does 'A' company of the London Regiment still wear the Hodden gray kilt?
I saw one of their Toronto bretheren in NY in Mess Dress, rather liked it. Body of the coatee matches the kilt, hose diced with blue, blue fringe in the right edge of the kilt.

Cheers,


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