# Khakis abroad



## BigTC (May 10, 2010)

Gents,

I just saw an interesting comment to the most recent post over at Muffy's place. The commenter stated his travel wardrobe consists mainly of grey, white, and black, because khakis are "not taken seriously" outside of the United States.

https://www.muffyaldrich.com/2013/0...howComment=1364935702035#c2784992203546600775

I had never heard this before, and the only times I've travelled across the pond have been when I was in uniform, so I don't have much experience in this arena.

I was wondering if anyone can confirm/deny this attitude among foreigners toward khakis in particular, but also toward any other items of Trad/Ivy/Preppy clothing in general? I'm particularly curious how these items are received in the more style-conscious locales, such as London, Paris, or Rome.


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## Submariner (May 6, 2006)

I went to London, Paris, and Rome on my honeymoon. As long as you don't wear Bermuda shorts with black tennis shoes and white knee high athletic socks, you will probably be taken more seriously than ~90% of the tourists. If you are going on business, you should definitely steer away from the khakis.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Submariner said:


> I went to London, Paris, and Rome on my honeymoon. As long as you don't wear Bermuda shorts with black tennis shoes and white knee high athletic socks, you will probably be taken more seriously than ~90% of the tourists. If you are going on business, you should definitely steer away from the khakis.


Well said. On the continent the euro look consists more of the slim fitting 'Hugo Boss' look whether it be with pants, shirts, or outerwear. The prep standards of button down collars and chinos or cords are far less common as is 100% cotton casual clothing (excluding slim 'designer' jeans) in general. If you look particularly trad over there you will look particularly silly over there unless visiting a college or Bill Buckley's place in Switzerland.

Best to not wear _any_ shorts there let alone Bermuda shorts.


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## roman totale XVII (Sep 18, 2009)

Speaking as an erstwhile Brit who has long been wearing the Ivy/ Trad/ whateveryoucallit look, I would certainly not wear khakis in any kind of business environment. Casually, you can be ok with them, in the right context. By and large, khakis are not as widely accepted or understood as denim, and are seen as mainly being something that sits at the extremes of the age spectrum - an item for very young children, or very old men. As mentioned above, it's largely about the fit If you're going to wear a pair of baggy M1s with a blazer or roomy Shetland, you are going to stand out. But a slimmer fitting pair with a button down and a pair of desert boots will look fine in most places.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Interesting stuff gents.
​


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I was at the zoo yesterday and saw a lot of older men in khaki chinos and white sneakers. It is a terrible look that screams tourist.

If i recall, when i lived in paris the only people who wore khaki were clearly north american tourists.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I wonder if German men are as self conscious about wearing tight grey jeans and a fanny pack?


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## nateo (Feb 27, 2013)

Khaki pants are usually frowned upon in public. Even if you're only two years old, it's a bit gauche.


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## coase (Apr 29, 2010)

I've noted before that's it's nearly impossible to talk about timeless style, especially in an international context. While a blue blazer, OCBD, standard tie, and full cut khakis are an acceptable look in the US, in many parts of the world it is considered odd or just screams American without style. In contrast, even somewhat fashion forward, slim cut, black suits would be considered totally appropriate, and even boring in some parts of Asia. And in both Western Europe and Russia, I've heard people remark about why Americans like to wear ill-fitting pants -- referring to fuller cut, pleated chinos, etc. An orphaned navy jacket with flat front, trim pants will often get you taken more seriously than the aforementioned blazer/khaki chinos combo. One doesn't have to go the full black suit route to realize that making even modest adjustments in one's clothing to take into account what it signals to others is both more sensible and stylish than feeling that just because you like something that conforms to a tradition engraved in your mind, it will necessarily say good things about you.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks, that's interesting.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Trip English said:


> I wonder if German men are as self conscious about wearing tight grey jeans and a fanny pack?


From my vacation experiences, certainly no reticence where the Speedos are concerned.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

coase said:


> in many parts of the world it is considered odd or just screams American without style.


 I can't see that inherently being a bad thing.

I think that context is very important as it relates to the nature of the relationship (i.e. who is the boss?). When I worked at an insurance firm we often had visitors from the UK who came dressed much more formally than we do (as a small branch in a smaller town owned by an enormous corporation). The relationship in this instance was more of a partnership, but my point is that they did not show much consideration for our culture when selecting their business attire. It did not bother me at all, btw.


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## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

oxford cloth button down said:


> I can't see that inherently being a bad thing.
> 
> I think that context is very important as it relates to the nature of the relationship (i.e. who is the boss?). When I worked at an insurance firm we often had visitors from the UK who came dressed much more formally than we do (as a small branch in a smaller town owned by an enormous corporation). The relationship in this instance was more of a partnership, but my point is that they did not show much consideration for our culture when selecting their business attire. It did not bother me at all, btw.


+1. I don't understand the impulse behind this fantasy of somehow sartorially assimilating to a foreign culture when visiting. You don't change all your political beliefs when you travel, do you? (Do you?!) So why would you eschew the look that defines you at home? Unless you have native speaking proficiency in the local language(s), you will be sussed out as a foreigner soon enough. Wear your OCBD proudly, I say. Business travel is another whale entirely, of course, but even in that context it seems possible to strike a balance.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Europe has a relatively cool climate and I'm not aware they ever grew a lot of cotton there.

Cotton was always something Colonials wore in America, the Near or Far East. 

They should get over their ugly prejudices!!


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

The Royals wear khaki.


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## Reldresal (Oct 13, 2011)

I'll probably encounter Arabs, Jews, Hindus, and all manner of people (including several hundred European tourists) in "non-American" dress today. I will neither consider them gauche, nor "wrong". Another example of Yankee superiority?


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## TradThrifter (Oct 22, 2012)

EP said:


> The Royals wear khaki.


Looks about the same as the US except spread collars galore. Oh yea...and the skirt.


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## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

TradThrifter said:


> Looks about the same as the US except spread collars galore. Oh yea...and the skirt.


Actually, in the picture on the right it looks like William is wearing a button-down with the collar unbuttoned. Why do people do this?!


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Kind of going with unmodern here:

If your goal is to give people the impression you're a local, and not a tourist, I would drop that goal. For one obvious and one more debatable reason:
- you're not likely to succeed, and even if you nail the look, the second you open your mouth you'll undo all that work;
- trying to give the impression you're someone or thing you're not generally does more harm than good, in the form of confusion, misunderstanding and bad feelings (at least outside of some specific situations, _e.g._ if you're a spy or a con man, in which case you probably want to consult some whole other forum).

Of course, you should deal appropriately with specific situations. Settings outside of the general all-purpose tourist-on-vacation milieu may require particular dress ... but that's true in the U.S. also. What's appropriate for business meetings will, of course, depend on the business and who you're meeting; an audience with the Pope has fairly specific requirements; as does a day at the beach (the latter two are different from one another ... if you don't already know that, you may not want to leave the U.S. or, possibly, your own house).

My own quick general thoughts:

- The only really _hard_ rule is don't be offensive. This might take a little thought in some parts of the world (Moslem countries, some Asian ones, etc.). It's generally not a big problem in Europe, unless you're the sort who dresses to offend in the U.S. If anything, the immodesty standard is more, rather than less, permissive. Whether this is a good thing depends entirely on whether you are in the presence of topless 22-year-old women or 50-year-old German men in Speedos.

- Remember that just because you're on vacation, it doesn't mean everywhere you go is a theme park. Frankly, this is as much (if not more of) an issue for Europeans in the U.S., judging from the frequency with which they turn up at 4-star restaurants in shorts and sandals (almost always Germans or Brits, for some reason). Remember that churches aren't just there for the tourists, and some people might - you know - go to church in them.

- Keep track of your stuff, stay out of rough parts of town, obey the law (yes, _their_ law), don't just assume you can drive in the local traffic, and make sure you know what gender people are before doing something foolish.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Starch said:


> - The only really _hard_ rule is don't be offensive. This might take a little thought in some parts of the world (Moslem countries, some Asian ones, etc.). It's generally not a big problem in Europe, unless you're the sort who dresses to offend in the U.S. *If anything, the immodesty standard is more, rather than less, permissive.* Whether this is a good thing depends entirely on whether you are in the presence of topless 22-year-old women or 50-year-old German men in Speedos.
> 
> - Remember that just because you're on vacation, it doesn't mean everywhere you go is a theme park. Frankly, this is as much (if not more of) an issue for Europeans in the U.S., judging from the frequency with which they turn up at 4-star restaurants in shorts and sandals (almost always Germans or Brits, for some reason). Remember that churches aren't just there for the tourists, and some people might - you know - go to church in them.


My understanding and experience is that, outside of the beach, the standard of modesty is higher in Continental Europe than in N.A., and that many will find it actually offensive to see a man in shorts or bare chested in town. And really, which of you _wouldn't_ want to see me at the beach in one of my speedos'? :thumbs-up:


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## IvanD (Jan 5, 2012)

I am from the UK, and have travelled quite extesively in Europe (as a tourist) over the last few years.
Here are some of the clothes I wore:















The 2nd picture, taken in Bratislava was taken just after we were mistaken for locals by some other foreign tourists who even insisted on having their picture took with us.
Based on this, I would say that as long as you are not wearing something outrageous, no one will give you a second glance.


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## Essential (Mar 20, 2012)

So do Europeans just wear wool pants... or birthday suits, or a combination of both??

I'm half serious. I basically exclusively wear chinos and on rare occasions, jeans.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

I've traveled extensively and never had a problem with wearing khaki's, however jeans are often not allowed in restaurants, churches, cathedrals, etc. Likewise - shorts.


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## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

Starch said:


> Kind of going with unmodern here:
> 
> If your goal is to give people the impression you're a local, and not a tourist, I would drop that goal. For one obvious and one more debatable reason:
> - you're not likely to succeed, and even if you nail the look, the second you open your mouth you'll undo all that work;
> ...


Probably the most sensible advice on this thread.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

We were in Bavaria and Austria over the Summer so here is my observation: more & more, worldwide everyone is dressing the same. Khakis, madras, plaids, boat shoes, etc the typical preppy look was pretty common for those under 30. The only way I could tell if someone was European was by their shoes, normally some sort of sleek, Euro brand tennis shoe. I dressed as I normally would here and didn't stand out at all. The one exception was that I always wore pants instead of shorts while in the city.

Brian


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## statboy (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm going to go to London and wear my M1s and frayed BB OCBDs all over the place.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

statboy said:


> I'm going to go to London and wear my M1s and frayed BB OCBDs all over the place.


'Singin we will we will rock you....'


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## frosejr (Mar 27, 2010)

Hitch said:


> 'Singin we will we will rock you....'


You win the thread!

:icon_hailthee:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Starch said:


> Kind of going with unmodern here:
> 
> If your goal is to give people the impression you're a local, and not a tourist, I would drop that goal. For one obvious and one more debatable reason:
> - you're not likely to succeed, and even if you nail the look, the second you open your mouth you'll undo all that work;
> ...


This last has the ring of personal experience about it - care to tell us more about your unfortunate mishap? :icon_smile:


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

^^^

Especially in Thailand or the Philippines!!


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## Mr. Grenxa (Apr 2, 2013)

I originally come from Southern Europe and have traveled quite a bit in Central Europe, though my view may be skewed by the fact that I've been living in the States for about four years now and I see khakis everywhere (and own a few). Now, even though I could not for the life of it think on where in the world I'd find (to buy) khakis back home, I don't think they would stand out at all. Khakis and a tucked in polo, or khakis and a sport jacket would probably stand out as non-local in many parts of Europe, but not weird or unacceptable by any means. Khakis and a nice shirt (dressy or otherwise, as long as it has a full set of buttons), however, would be just fine and would not make you stand out (as long as you're not wearing white tennis shoes with them). If you will attend any business meetings, you should definitely bring a two piece suit as, from what I've seen, that seems to be the standard for conducting business in most of Europe.

On a side note, you'll most likely be fine in any sort of full length pants in most places (other than very fancy restaurants perhaps), but in some countries, shorts may indeed deny you entry, especially in churches or government (any level) buildings.


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## BigTC (May 10, 2010)

Fascinating responses, everyone. 

I think Starch is right that it's a mistake to try and convince the native inhabitants of a place that you're one of them, because as he pointed out, you're going to fall flat on your face. 

But on the other hand, I don't think merely adhering to the bare minimum standards of acceptability for that place (e.g. simply wearing pants rather than shorts) is the answer either. As those of us who are sartorially inclined are well aware, your clothing is an important part of the first impression you make on the people you meet, and whether or not that impression is justified is beside the point. So, sure, you may not be denied admission to a place if you're wearing khakis, but what kind of experience will you have while you're there if everyone's first impression of you is "obnoxious American tourist"? Or, stated another way: There's a difference between the outfit that gets you a table at the cafe, and the outfit that gets you a table at the back of the cafe with an inattentive waiter after an hour wait because the maitre'd didn't feel any obligation to seat the poorly dressed Yankee tourist.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Hitch said:


> 'Singin we will we will rock you....'


Seriously funny, Hitch!
For what it's worth, I used to wear size 42. All of my khakis were a"broad".


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

A bit more than twenty years back I had the opportunity to spend a period of time living in Europe. Much of my time was spent wearing a uniform, but civilian cloths were the order of the day for off-duty excursions. Frankly I cannot specifically recall what I wore on those occasions, though Khakis and sport shirts were pretty regular components of my attire and I assume that they were a significant part of my wardrobing efforts back then. I don't think I was ever ill received or treated badly dressed like that or even that I stood out significantly from the crowd! The only Europeans I encountered with bad attitudes were a few of the French citizens. Otherwise, everyone seemed pretty darn friendly. Alas, perhaps times have changed?


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## Mr. Grenxa (Apr 2, 2013)

@BiqTC: I don't think that "obnoxious" there goes so much with American, but it rather goes more with "tourist" in most places. And it's not so much because of dress, but rather behavior.

Funny you should mention inattentiveness of the waiters, where I'm from, a waiter is _expected_ to leave you alone, and most times it is up to you to _summon_ one when you need them. I find the overly attentive American waiters to be somewhat annoying (and they _always_ seem to wait until I have something in my mouth to come by and ask me "how's everything"). Also, a lot of the time I feel like the only thing on their mind is to kick me out as soon as they think that I'm done eating (especially when they bring me my check without me asking for it).


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## AmericanGent (Apr 6, 2013)

As an American living in Italy I'd like to chime in. Khaki chino pants with a 3 button polo shirt = American. Considering keeping away from this look is not about looking non-American- it is more about not looking like an inexperienced cruise ship traveler. If you dress a little more worldly you will be less attractive to thieves and hawkers. I try to look like a well traveled, well dressed, knowledgeable traveler who happens to be American. 

Khaki pants are great for golfing, boating, etc., but for travel I would suggest non-chino khaki/stone pants that fit well and are the correct weight for the local climate. In hot climates I go for linen- wrinkles be damned. 

First post here on AAAC. Thought I'd come over and test the waters.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

It's primarily the fit and cut of the trousers in continental Europe. They wear lots of cotton, lots of synthetics and blends, etc.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

AmericanGent said:


> As an American living in Italy I'd like to chime in. Khaki chino pants with a 3 button polo shirt = American.


Good thing my polos shirts were two button, whew!

Brian


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Another of these strange threads about what to wear in foreign parts. ''What shoes should I wear in Rome? We will be walking quite a lot.''

Most foreigners do not care what you wear - particularly in big cities.

In any case, most foreigners will soon work out if you are a septic or not, regardless of what you are wearing.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Kingstonian said:


> Another of these strange threads about what to wear in foreign parts. ''What shoes should I wear in Rome? We will be walking quite a lot.''
> 
> Most foreigners do not care what you wear - particularly in big cities.
> 
> In any case, most foreigners will soon work out if you are a *septic *or not, regardless of what you are wearing.


Translation: Septic as in Septic Tank for 'Yank', being a phrase generated by Cockney rhyming slang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney_rhyming_slang :icon_smile:


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

This thread is bizarre. 

Whether the UK forms part of Europe is perhaps an a priori question. But assuming a positive response, the idea that people do not wear cotton trousers in the UK is odd. Cotton drills ('gentlemens' jeans), moleskins, cords ...


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## AmericanGent (Apr 6, 2013)

Shaver said:


> Translation: Septic as in Septic Tank for 'Yank', being a phrase generated by Cockney rhyming slang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney_rhyming_slang :icon_smile:


Ah yes, I was just about to to mention the meaning of this nickname from our loving cousins. Funny, we don't have any names like that for you guys.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Mr. Grenxa said:


> @BiqTC: I don't think that "obnoxious" there goes so much with American, but it rather goes more with "tourist" in most places. And it's not so much because of dress, but rather behavior.
> 
> Funny you should mention inattentiveness of the waiters, where I'm from, a waiter is _expected_ to leave you alone, and most times it is up to you to _summon_ one when you need them. I find the overly attentive American waiters to be somewhat annoying (and they _always_ seem to wait until I have something in my mouth to come by and ask me "how's everything"). Also, a lot of the time I feel like the only thing on their mind is to kick me out as soon as they think that I'm done eating (especially when they bring me my check without me asking for it).


You have expressed perfectly how I feel about obnoxious American waiters. Unfortunately they have been trained this way to maximize tips for themselves and profits for the restaurant by fast table turnover.

Yes, bringing your check without asking is bad enough, but worse when it is delivered without asking when serving the dessert. And how about when they go on a first name basis, signing their name and a smiley face on the check, just like you have found a long lost childhood friend.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Kingstonian said:


> Another of these strange threads about what to wear in foreign parts. ''What shoes should I wear in Rome? We will be walking quite a lot.''
> 
> Most foreigners do not care what you wear - particularly in big cities.
> 
> In any case, most foreigners will soon work out if you are a septic or not, regardless of what you are wearing.


Exactly.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

I feel as big a dork wearing khakis in NYC as in London or Paris.


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## BigTC (May 10, 2010)

Kingstonian said:


> Another of these strange threads about what to wear in foreign parts. ''What shoes should I wear in Rome? We will be walking quite a lot.''
> 
> Most foreigners do not care what you wear - particularly in big cities.
> 
> In any case, most foreigners will soon work out if you are a septic or not, regardless of what you are wearing.


You misstate the issue. Re-read the orignal post: a commenter on another blog made an observation, and I merely asked if others more well-traveled than I had similar experiences. Nothing strange about it.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Trip English said:


> I wonder if German men are as self conscious about wearing tight grey jeans and a fanny pack?


I wonder what all the Korean tourists do with their photos of cement planters and pebbled garbage cans.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

AmericanGent said:


> As an American living in Italy I'd like to chime in. Khaki chino pants with a 3 button polo shirt = American. Considering keeping away from this look is not about looking non-American- it is more about not looking like an inexperienced cruise ship traveler. If you dress a little more worldly you will be less attractive to thieves and hawkers. I try to look like a well traveled, well dressed, knowledgeable traveler who happens to be American. Khaki pants are great for golfing, boating, etc., but for travel I would suggest non-chino khaki/stone pants that fit well and are the correct weight for the local climate. In hot climates I go for linen- wrinkles be damned. First post here on AAAC. Thought I'd come over and test the waters.


I'm not sure I follow. what exactly are "non-chino khaki/stone pants" ? And it by "fit well" you mean slim pants, not all of us can pull those off.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

What a very odd thread!


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## nateo (Feb 27, 2013)

AmericanGent said:


> Funny, we don't have any names like that for you guys.


Coming up with a clever nickname for British people would require us Americans to spend time thinking one up. Since British people are not ourselves, there's really no reason to think about them.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Himself said:


> I feel as big a dork wearing khakis in NYC as in London or Paris.


 I cant help but wonder why you dont wear something else then.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

AmericanGent said:


> Ah yes, I was just about to to mention the meaning of this nickname from our loving cousins. Funny, we don't have any names like that for you guys.


Yeah dont give the Tommy Bugger Limeys the satifaction.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Hitch said:


> Yeah dont give the Tommy Bugger Limeys the satifaction.



.
.
.

.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

AmericanGent said:


> Ah yes, I was just about to to mention the meaning of this nickname from our loving cousins. Funny, we don't have any names like that for you guys.


Both Bronx and Biloxi Rhyming Slang have matches for "Brit". Only used if/when the dear old things get all sniffy and socialist about us when visiting here. As to European traveling, I have and plan to in future indicate that I'm glad to be there and like the place (easy since it's true), and not make invidious comparisons to the US. The "natives" appear to appreciate this, and tend to overlook my quaint costumery


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

On the side point, just to be disturbingly serious:

I don't think people use rhyming slang much in Britain any more, though someone may disagree. Where it still has some currency is Australia, though the term transmogrified to "Seppo." It's actually used a fair amount, though I think most often by people who are trying to sound "colorful."

"Pom" is the corresponding term for a Brit. It's apparently rhyming slang as well. Supposedly from "pomegranate," which Australians somehow believe rhymes with "immigrant." Whether that's true, I don't know.


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## statboy (Sep 1, 2010)

Himself said:


> I feel as big a dork wearing khakis in NYC as in London or Paris.


I'm going to go to NYC and Paris and wear my M1s and frayed BB OCBDs all over the place.


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## Dovid (Feb 26, 2008)

When I was in Berlin, Germans said they were surprised that I was American because I was wearing Eccos. I guess they were expecting ripped Reeboks. Most of the time, it was dark gray, black or dark brown khakis (pleated fronts) with Polo shirts and a black baseball cap. 

An Italian told me that Germans usually wear three colors that don't go together, but I was unable to confirm this on my trip there.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Dovid said:


> When I was in Berlin, Germans said they were surprised that I was American because I was wearing Eccos. I guess they were expecting ripped Reeboks. Most of the time, it was dark gray, black or dark brown khakis (pleated fronts) with Polo shirts and a black baseball cap.
> 
> An Italian told me that Germans usually wear three colors that don't go together, but I was unable to confirm this on my trip there.


Eccos... *shudder*

Sort of the opposite: a German coworker of mine hilariously wears dirty bucks with EVERYTHING. And when I say everything, I mean he wears black chinos everyday + every shirt/coat combo I can think of.


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## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

Himself said:


> I feel as big a dork wearing khakis in NYC as in London or Paris.


I'm flying down to NYC this weekend coming up and I will most likely be wearing either a pair of BB Clark or RL Preston Chinos and have a pair of RL Polo selvege denim slm fit jeans in my duffle bag so I can blend in better in SOHO and Brooklyn.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

I seem to recall "Pome" being used as a slang for a Briton, because is "Prisoner of Mother England".

I may be wrong, but I was told that by a Kiwi.

​


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Uncle Bill said:


> I'm flying down to NYC this weekend coming up and I will most likely be wearing either a pair of BB Clark or RL Preston Chinos and have a pair of RL Polo selvege denim slm fit jeans in my duffle bag so I can blend in better in SOHO and Brooklyn.


I follow a similar strategy. Dark wool pants too. Khakis are the most comfortable on the train.


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## Chevo (Jan 3, 2013)

I have found during my research trips to certain Latin American countries that khakis tend to be accepted. But, it seems that people, in the professional ranks, are a bit more proper and rarely have I seen the older generation wear khakis - a generational thing perhaps?


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## DoubleDDownUnder (Apr 19, 2013)

I'm an American expat that's been in Australia for nearly eight years and I've been told that POM stands for Prisoner of His/Her Majesty. Of course, that makes no sense since the first Europeans in Australia were convicts and are still here to this day...Australians.

i get called a "seppo" all the time here - rhyming slang for septic tank or Yank. Even more confusing for me because I'm a native Southerner.

Drew


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## Rsmith1810 (Feb 2, 2013)

As a Canadian living in Rome I can tell you that khakis are definitely worn in a business casual environment. However they are not your Bill's M1 variety - they are more slim fitting, tailored and usually a lighter weight. Often cotton blend too. Any of the men's stores in Rome sell these. I see older gentlemen on the street and in the workplace (business casual) wearing cords and khakis often and normally these are higher-waisted, long rise, fuller fits. 

There is a huge variation in office environments and what is acceptable in the workplace here. There are indeed a lot of suits, but good suits are found in only select places (where people earn a lot of money) and there are lot of cheap blended suits. The average income in Rome is 1200 Euro a month so you can imagine what that means for the clothing budget.

Everyone does, however, use the tailors - and fit is a little more important.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

This thread aroused my curiosity, so I made sure to pay attention to pants/trousers during my passage through Paris and Vienna airports yesterday and on the street here in Vienna. In general, khaki-colored chino's do seem rare, but the diversity of style and quality of men's pants/trouses would seem to completely mask any uniqueness to khaki-colored chinos. Better-dressed men just look better dressed regardless of the details.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

Rsmith1810 said:


> The average income in Rome is 1200 Euro a month


Is the average income in Rome really so much lower than in Italy in general? The Italian median income is around $2500 I believe, or some 1900 Euro.


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## Fatman (May 7, 2013)

I wonder if any lingering attitudes in Europe go back to the WWII khakis worn by US ??


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Fatman said:


> I wonder if any lingering attitudes in Europe go back to the WWII khakis worn by US ??


If so, my experience in Austria (and other countries) would suggest everyone would be wearing them. There is a great and deep affection for Americans still lingering from that time and often manifesting itself in imitation. A highly cultured and well-traveled friend of mine born during the war told me he had a few days free in the US to do whatever he wanted. He made a lifelong dream come true by spending them at the Grand O'le Opry - GIs were fond of country music.


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## Dovid (Feb 26, 2008)

LordSmoke said:


> If so, my experience in Austria (and other countries) would suggest everyone would be wearing them. There is a great and deep affection for Americans still lingering from that time and often manifesting itself in imitation. A highly cultured and well-traveled friend of mine born during the war told me he had a few days free in the US to do whatever he wanted. He made a lifelong dream come true by spending them at the Grand O'le Opry - GIs were fond of country music.


A German told me that he thought of the Grand Ole Opry as the ground zero of American culture.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Dovid said:


> A German told me that he thought of the Grand Ole Opry as the ground zero of American culture.


Doesn't "ground zero" mean the place on the ground directly beneath where a bomb detonates? Even allowing for metaphor, I'm having a hard time applying that to the Grand Ole Opry, so presumably you meant something else.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Dovid said:


> A German told me that he thought of the Grand Ole Opry as the ground zero of American culture.


I think he must have meant Patient Zero.


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## Robert Patrick (Apr 14, 2004)

^^^ chortle, chortle!


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## 6thFairway (Jul 24, 2012)

Interesting topic. I guess this is as good a place as any to tell a funny clothing story about myself. About 5 years ago I spent some time working in Amsterdam. It was a pretty senior technical position and I also gave several big presentations. I've traveled extensively in the USA and worked in 30+ states. Being a southerner from the Atlanta area, I never thought twice about packing a sports coat and a tie. Did my work over a period of six months or so, and then about a year later one of my Dutch co-workers told me that they considered even a suit without a tie to be more formal and business-appropriate than a sports coat with a tie. Uh-oh. 

I said I guess they didn't think much of what I wore during that project, and he said everything was okay once I started talking. ha ha ha. Now I know better and I'd be wearing a suit. Atlanta is much less fussy about dress than many places.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Dovid said:


> A German told me that he thought of the Grand Ole Opry as the ground zero of American culture.


I guess it's a pejorative but it seems garbled in translation. Unless 'American culture' is devastation. I suppose there is a case to be made. I note some rough patches for Deutsche Kultur also.


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## TradThrifter (Oct 22, 2012)

I remember a year or so ago I wore a tweed sportcoat and blue jeans to a bar. A woman came to me and said "Nice suit."

Another time in the office I was wearing CG made in El Salvador Bass Weejuns. A female co-worker says "I like your fancy shoes."


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Starch said:


> Doesn't "ground zero" mean the place on the ground directly beneath where a bomb detonates? Even allowing for metaphor, I'm having a hard time applying that to the Grand Ole Opry, so presumably you meant something else.


It does, but in this usage think of it as the epicenter.

Brian


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## ColonialBoy (Dec 12, 2011)

Here in Australia, khakis are more for "dress down Friday" at work, or for weekends. We tend to follow British/European sensibilities, but with a local twist because of all the hot weather.

Until I started reading fashion blogs a few years ago
- I wore button down shirts occasionally but had no idea of their US history
- I wore European style ties, now I got some BB & RL
- I had never worn chinos.
- wore cheap ill fitting generic brand shoes

In Australia at the moment, tan/olive jeans by RM Williams and others, are more popular than chino's. Short shorts are back in fashion.

The blue blazer & khaki look is something you never see here at all. I'd maybe try a blue blazer & light-coloured wool pants if I wanted a local equivalent, without seeming too odd.

This is the Australian equivalent of "blazer & tattersal shirt" - a sports coat with exaggerated shoulders + shirt from RM Williams https://i.imgur.com/3aCoRCh.jpg

100% cotton business shrts are uncommon, its usually 65% cotton and 35% polyester. The most common department store business shirt is Van Heusen & thats what I tend to wear. Australia grows a lot of cotton but most is exported to be reimported as finished clothing.

Polo shirts are common, RL polos are highly regarded, but there isnt' a concept of polos + chinos to make an "ensemble". Boat shoes are common in summer. If somebody wore bowties to work or cricket jumpers while not playing cricket, it would rise eyebrows.

People here generally know the European "rules" of fashion, but not the American ones. You can try the American look but I think conservatism is the key, keeping in mind the local culture. When in Rome do as the Romans do.



6thFairway said:


> Did my work over a period of six months or so, and then about a year later one of my Dutch co-workers told me that they considered even a suit without a tie to be more formal and business-appropriate than a sports coat with a tie. Uh-oh.


It would be in Australia too. Sports coats in an office work or any formal setting is odd to our European-inspired mindset. Maybe you could pull it off if you had a nice ensemble though. I have seen school teachers wear sports coats.


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