# White tie and tails



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

My BF and I have been invited to a (according to the invitation), Formal wedding. The ceremony is at 4:30 pm and the dinner etc starts at 6:00 pm. My Bf insists we wear white tie and tails due to the formal notation on the invitation. I have asked some friends who are also invited and they are wearing either black tie or just a suit. What would you do?


----------



## Aluan (Feb 11, 2008)

suitandtieguy said:


> My BF and I have been invited to a (according to the invitation), Formal wedding. The ceremony is at 4:30 pm and the dinner etc starts at 6:00 pm. My Bf insists we wear white tie and tails due to the formal notation on the invitation. I have asked some friends who are also invited and they are wearing either black tie or just a suit. What would you do?


If he wants to get technical, isn't the correct attire morning dress, since the wedding is during the day?


----------



## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

If it calls for tails (and deserves tails) then wear tails. But I am not sure what the proper thing to do is in such a situation where one should technically start off in day wear.

Cordovan


----------



## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

Four thirty is too early for white tie. Wear a morning coat.


----------



## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

Bird's One View said:


> Four thirty is too early for white tie. Wear a morning coat.


...and then switch at night? or stay in the morning coat at night?

Any of the above does not sit comfortably with me. IMHO, change the time of the wedding to accomodate proper dress :icon_smile:.

Cordovan


----------



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Change at 17:55!


----------



## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

I've heard that suggestion before, but I don't like it. Hits me the wrong way in too many different ways.

Cordovan


----------



## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

> ...and then switch at night? or stay in the morning coat at night?


Stay in the morning coat at night. There is a dispensation for hectic schedules like this.


----------



## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

I guess IMO that is the best option - but is really the least of all evils.

Cordovan


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

I would still feel overdressed in a morning suit. My boyfriend say then we could wear top hats and gloves. Is that appropriate? I have suggested we change for the dinner to the white tie. Cocktails are at 6 the dinner is at 7:30.


----------



## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

Of course you can wear top hats and gloves. I would not change before dinner because it is logistically difficult and rather conspicuous.


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Bird's One View said:


> Of course you can wear top hats and gloves. I would not change before dinner because it is logistically difficult and rather conspicuous.


Are the tophats only worn outside? My boyfriend is so into dressing up that sometimes I worry it is over the top.


----------



## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

> Are the tophats only worn outside?


The usual hat etiquette applies; they are normally removed indoors. The usual exceptions may be made (carrying bulky object, common area of public building, etc.).


----------



## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

Strikes me as that you might care to ask if "formal" means White Tie or least-holed jeans. 

Something makes me doubt, no offense to the couple, that you've the need to pull out the full rig.


----------



## s4usea (Jul 10, 2007)

You need to ask what the wedding party is wearing and take it a notch down for you as there's no greater sin than upstaging a Bride or groom.


----------



## A world beyond fleece (Feb 20, 2008)

*Ask?*

What about asking the happy couple?


----------



## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

I would say ask, but the technical right answer is morning coat and stay in that all the way through.


----------



## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

s4usea said:


> You need to ask what the wedding party is wearing and take it a notch down for you as there's no greater sin than upstaging a Bride or groom.


+1

Remember that the wedding is not about you, it's about the wedding couple.

Ask them (or find out) what they're wearing, then dress on the same wavelength, but less showy.

For example if the groom is wearing a tuxedo with a vest that matches the bride's bouquet, then wear a tuxedo that's strictly black and white.


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

Desk Jockey said:


> Strikes me as that you might care to ask if "formal" means White Tie or least-holed jeans.
> 
> Something makes me doubt, no offense to the couple, that you've the need to pull out the full rig.


+1
I also find it hard to believe that the bride and groom are expecting morning dress and/or white tie. Unless the ceremony is takes place at a prominent church and the reception is for hundreds of people at a swank urban venue or a posh country club then it is not truly formal. If the wedding is at an ordinary church and the reception is in a banquet hall then showing up in morning dress and/or white tie would be the equivalent of arriving in a masquerade costume.


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Midnight Blue said:


> +1
> I also find it hard to believe that the bride and groom are expecting morning dress and/or white tie. Unless the ceremony is takes place at a prominent church and the reception is for hundreds of people at a swank urban venue or a posh country club then it is not truly formal. If the wedding is at an ordinary church and the reception is in a banquet hall then showing up in morning dress and/or white tie would be the equivalent of arriving in a masquerade costume.


The ceremony is at the Arch diocese Cathedral in our small city and the reception is being held at the most exclusive hotel ballroom. There will be about 300 guests. The groom is wearing a gray tailcoat with pink vest and ascot (the bridesmaids are in pink).


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

suitandtieguy said:


> The ceremony is at the Arch diocese Cathedral in our small city and the reception is being held at the most exclusive hotel ballroom. There will be about 300 guests. The groom is wearing a gray tailcoat with pink vest and ascot (the bridesmaids are in pink).


In Scotland this would mean morning dress.The morning coat should be black,if the groom is in gray,so as not to upstage the wedding party.Their should be no reason to change ,here it is considered quite correct to wear morning dress in the evening if the same venue is being used.That is what was done at my own wedding and at those I have attended since.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

suitandtieguy said:


> The groom is wearing a gray tailcoat with pink vest and ascot (the bridesmaids are in pink).


I thought you Canadians wrote "grey"?

Either way, it sounds like some sort of variation on morning dress which is correct for a 430PM event. It is also correct to continue wearing morning attire for the event afterwards. If it is going to be dark by 430-5PM then evening dress would be fine, especially if the ceremony will in all practicality start a bit later than the stated time. There are two different types of tail coats - morning coats (cutaway in American English) and dress coats.

Morning 









Dress









Bastardised versions of proper dress such as a dress coat with morning trousers worn in broad daylight are traditional butler's uniforms:


----------



## M6Classic (Feb 15, 2008)

Aluan said:


> If he wants to get technical, isn't the correct attire morning dress, since the wedding is during the day?


Depends upon the time of year and degrees of latitude.

Buzz


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

suitandtieguy said:


> The ceremony is at the Arch diocese Cathedral in our small city and the reception is being held at the most exclusive hotel ballroom. There will be about 300 guests. The groom is wearing a gray tailcoat with pink vest and ascot (the bridesmaids are in pink).


Very impressive - definitely the real deal! In this case morning dress would be appropriate assuming that the wedding is in the next few months. Regina's sunset is currently 8 PM and will be as late as 9:15 PM in the middle of the summer so morning dress will definitely not look out of place at a six o'clock reception.

edit: of course, if the groom is not planning to change for the reception then the question of whether or not a guest should wear evening dress becomes a moot point


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

balder said:


> here it is considered quite correct to wear morning dress in the evening if the same venue is being used. That is what was done at my own wedding and at those I have attended since.


Does that mean that British weddings are often not held in churches?


----------



## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

Midnight Blue said:


> Very impressive - definitely the real deal! In this case morning dress would be appropriate assuming that the wedding is in the next few months. Regina's sunset is currently 8 PM and will be as late as 9:15 PM in the middle of the summer so morning dress will definitely not look out of place at a six o'clock reception.


+1

With the additional information you've given, I'd say go with a morning coat. Stick to dove gray for the coat.


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

Midnight Blue said:


> Does that mean that British weddings are often not held in churches?


 No,though many are now performed by a registrar at venues that are licensed for weddings,as was the case of my own wedding,which was a humanist wedding performed by a humanist celebrant at a hotel in the afternoon.As I said in a previous post Scotish weddings tend to go on into the night with dancing,drinking etc.This does not depend on the venue,the Signet Library in Edinburgh is one of the top(and top price!) venues and some of the longest lasting( i.e into the wee small hours)have been there!


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> +1
> 
> With the additional information you've given, I'd say go with a morning coat. Stick to dove gray for the coat.


I don't now about Canada,but here if the wedding party is in gray,then it is considered better for other male guests to wear a black morning coat.


----------



## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

balder said:


> I don't now about Canada,but here if the wedding party is in gray,then it is considered better for other male guests to wear a black morning coat.


+1

Unless you happen to be The Prince of Wales.

*W_B*


----------



## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah, my bad. These guys are correct. Wear a black morning coat!!!


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> Yeah, my bad. These guys are correct. Wear a black morning coat!!!


My bf wants us to wear the style on the right.

I am still nervous about being overdressed as none of the friends I have spoken to plan to wear more than a standard tuxedo. (many are just wearing a suit)


----------



## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

Sator said:


> Morning


I thought that morning coats were meant to be fastened with some sort of frog closure. ?:icon_scratch:?

Cordovan


----------



## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

If you really feel awkward about wearing a morning coat, a stroller is a nice compromise. It's not as dressy as the bride and groom, but it's dressier than what the other guests will be wearing. It's daytime formalwear, so it's appropriate for the occasion.


----------



## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Cordovan said:


> I thought that morning coats were meant to be fastened with some sort of frog closure. ?:icon_scratch:?
> 
> Cordovan


You may be think of a smoking jacket.


----------



## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

Oh yeah- my mistake - I mean some fastener that connects the two parts of the coat. Kind of like a double sided button (blocking on the terminology).

Cordovan


----------



## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

> I mean some fastener that connects the two parts of the coat. Kind of like a double sided button (blocking on the terminology).


A linked front. Each side of the coat has a buttonhole. I've read that these were common on morning coats in the past, but most of the pictures I've seen show ordinary buttons.

I have an old dinner jacket with a false linked front. Buttonhole on left side, short-shanked button on outer face of right side with long-shanked button underneath it on inner face of right side. It can be fastened either way.


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> If you really feel awkward about wearing a morning coat, a stroller is a nice compromise. It's not as dressy as the bride and groom, but it's dressier than what the other guests will be wearing. It's daytime formalwear, so it's appropriate for the occasion.


+1 (excellent suggestion)

Whatever you do, don't wear a tuxedo to a 4:30 summer event in Regina!


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Midnight Blue said:


> +1 (excellent suggestion)
> 
> Whatever you do, don't wear a tuxedo to a 4:30 summer event in Regina!


I am wearing a morning suit, but why no Tuxedo in Regina?


----------



## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

suitandtieguy said:


> I am wearing a morning suit, but why no Tuxedo in Regina?


Because 4:30 PM is not after 6:00 PM and it will still be afternoon and not evening.


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

David V said:


> Because 4:30 PM is not after 6:00 PM and it will still be afternoon and not evening.


Sorry I thought you specifically ment in Regina.


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

suitandtieguy said:


> Sorry I thought you specifically ment in Regina.


No, I've got nothing against the prairies :icon_smile: Rather, as I mentioned, the combination of a summer wedding in a city located at a relatively northern latitude means that the sun will not set until very late which means there is no wiggle room to wear a tuxedo before 6 p.m. (As opposed to a winter wedding in the same locale where the sun sets as early as 5 pm allowing a man to get away with wearing a tuxedo considerably earlier than the accepted start time for "evening". Hell, an Edmonton winter wedding could count on darkness as early as 4:15!)


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Cordovan said:


> I thought that morning coats were meant to be fastened with some sort of frog closure. ?:icon_scratch:?
> 
> Cordovan


A covered button is the norm but I have seen vintage examples which close with a link. The closure is very much like this dinner jacket:










Here is a lounge coat which closes with a link:










Someone over a SF recently posted pictures of the basted fitting for a morning coat he was planning to wear to his wedding with just such a configuration.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Midnight Blue said:


> Rather, as I mentioned, the combination of a summer wedding in a city located at a relatively northern latitude means that the sun will not set until very late which means there is no wiggle room to wear a tuxedo before 6 p.m. (As opposed to a winter wedding in the same locale where the sun sets as early as 5 pm allowing a man to get away with wearing a tuxedo considerably earlier than the accepted start time for "evening". Hell, an Edmonton winter wedding could count on darkness as early as 4:15!)


The big question of course is what on earth one does in places where it is bright 24 hours for half the time and perpetually dark for the other half :icon_smile_big:


----------



## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

Where can one purchase such links? I find the look of the gentleman in the DJ with the link to be striking? Also, when is it (in)appropriate to have the wings stick in front of the bow tie?

Thanks

Cordovan


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Cordovan said:


> Where can one purchase such links? I find the look of the gentleman in the DJ with the link to be striking? Also, when is it (in)appropriate to have the wings stick in front of the bow tie?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Cordovan


I should imagine you would have to scour through antique stores etc or have them made.

Thanks to Flusser you see discussion about how the wings of a collar should sit. Older fashion plates seem oblivious to his ideas, suggesting that they are just his own personal pet peeve, and should generally be ignored.


----------



## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

I was going to say that I've seen quite a few older pictures with no regard to collar position.

It's good to be able to develop a taste over time and be educated enough that one can comfortably take issue/ debate one far more educated than you.

Thanks for the boost of self confidence.

Cordovan


----------



## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Sator said:


> The big question of course is what on earth one does in places where it is bright 24 hours for half the time and perpetually dark for the other half :icon_smile_big:


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

suitandtieguy said:


> My bf wants us to wear the style on the right.
> 
> I am still nervous about being overdressed as none of the friends I have spoken to plan to wear more than a standard tuxedo. (many are just wearing a suit)


Can you not contact the groom and ask him what he wishes male guests to wear?


----------



## SilkCity (Apr 3, 2004)

Whatever you do, do not wear the black patent shoes as advised in the ad
you linked us to.

I fear what Manton's reaction to the ad's advice would be.


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Well my BF says that as the invitation states "Formal" we are going to wear our morning suits/lavender cravats to the service the go home (we live quite close) and change into our white tie and tails and top hats for the dinner at 7:30. We will be wearing patent leather opera pumps with the white tie. Sorry about that.


----------



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Don't match cravats! Matching is the bane of modern weddings. You're doing everything else right, so don't let yourself fall into the typical wedding trap


----------



## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

I still recommend against changing clothes between the ceremony and reception. Unless the groom (and bride!) were also changing clothes, you would draw undue attention to yourself by doing so.


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

JibranK said:


> Don't match cravats! Matching is the bane of modern weddings. You're doing everything else right, so don't let yourself fall into the typical wedding trap


My bf loves us to match, he thinks it is romantic. We often wear the same tie to work (we work in diff offices/companies) and when we go out for dinner we often wear the same suit/shirt/tie etc. I was uncomfortable dressing alike at first but I soon realized the pleasure I gave him by doing this out weighed any discomfort on my part.


----------



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Why don't you coordinate with complementary colors instead?


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

Bird's One View said:


> I still recommend against changing clothes between the ceremony and reception. Unless the groom (and bride!) were also changing clothes, you would draw undue attention to yourself by doing so.


+1

Is this wedding about you and your boyfriend or is it about the bride and groom?


----------



## Topper (May 5, 2007)

Bird's One View said:


> I still recommend against changing clothes between the ceremony and reception. Unless the groom (and bride!) were also changing clothes, you would draw undue attention to yourself by doing so.


Alas this happen to me once, my cousin had a lovley do in Scotland wen she got married in Scotland.

They didnt request any specific highland dress, so I went in English morning dress, though decided to leave the Topper, as we were having the ceremony inside the same Country House hotel where we were staying.

Anyway the ceremony was just after lunch if i remember, so was in morning dress. Then the event went on all day, so by 6 pm I went back to my room to put on a dinner jacket and black tie for dinner.....

Needless to say people looked surprised, but it just couldn't be done eating dinner in mornring dress!:icon_smile_big:


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Topper said:


> Alas this happen to me once, my cousin had a lovley do in Scotland wen she got married in Scotland.
> 
> They didnt request any specific highland dress, so I went in English morning dress, though decided to leave the Topper, as we were having the ceremony inside the same Country House hotel where we were staying.
> 
> ...


That is what my bf says. Morning suit for the ceremony then change to white tie for dinner. He wants us to wear our Top hats and gloves though. Says it adds the finishing touch. Our cravats will be lavender. It is not "all about us" but my bf is a stickler for proper dress and the invitation did read formal.


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

suitandtieguy said:


> It is not "all about us" but my bf is a stickler for proper dress and the invitation did read formal.


But it is important to keep in mind that while "white tie" has a universal definition, "formal" has been a relative term for decades and its meaning varies from community to community. I still think you should not let semantics trump common courtesy by upstaging the groom (you haven't meantioned whether the groom plans to change into a tailcoat as well).

As for the top hat and gloves, I presume they are only being worn outdoors?


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

Midnight Blue said:


> But it is important to keep in mind that while "white tie" has a universal definition, "formal" has been a relative term for decades and its meaning varies from community to community. I still think you should not let semantics trump common courtesy by upstaging the groom (you haven't meantioned whether the groom plans to change into a tailcoat as well).
> 
> As for the top hat and gloves, I presume they are only being worn outdoors?


Yoy say that many people are going in lounge suits and you don't want to look out of place.I would think ariving back in the evening in white tie and tails will make you and the BF look like Fred Astaire-or get you mistaken for the cabaret!!!


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

balder said:


> Yoy say that many people are going in lounge suits and you don't want to look out of place.I would think ariving back in the evening in white tie and tails will make you and the BF look like Fred Astaire-or get you mistaken for the cabaret!!!


 Sorry Midnight blue!I ment to quote Suit and tie guy,not you!!


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

suitandtieguy said:


> That is what my bf says. Morning suit for the ceremony then change to white tie for dinner. He wants us to wear our Top hats and gloves though. Says it adds the finishing touch. Our cravats will be lavender. It is not "all about us" but my bf is a stickler for proper dress and the invitation did read formal.


At the risk of beating a dead horse, I have had some further thoughts that I wanted to pass on for a couple of reasons. First, you seem to be genuinely concerned about being overdressed and the fact is that you will certainly be embarassed with your boyfriend's current choices. Having been there myself, I am hoping I can help you avoid it. Secondly, I have developed an odd affection for formal wear over the four years I have been studying it and wearing it and I hate to see it abused. Just as wearing incorrect attire to an appropriate occasion makes formal wear look bad, so does wearing correct attire to an inappropriate occasion. Unfortunately your very elegant tailcoat ensemble will almost certainly look like a stage costume to the upper crust (and everyone else) attending this wedding.

You say that your boyfriend is a stickler for detail (as am I) so I have some information that I think you will definitely want to pass on to him: when it comes to traditional formal weddings the fact is that white tie is only for members of the wedding party, _not_ for guests. This comes right from one of the most conservative and respected etiquette authorities around: the Emily Post series. While the book's author agrees that male guests may wear morning dress to a formal afternoon wedding she is very clear that formal evening weddings require guests to dress in a tuxedo if women wear long dresses or in a dark suit & tie otherwise.

I can't emphasize enough how insulting it would be to hijack someone else's wedding and I implore you to save the tailcoats until your own nuptials when your boyfriend can be as extravagant as he wants to!


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

To add to Midnight Blue's comments.I would think that in the last 40-50 years their has been a change in the varies grades of what what would be described as "formal dress".I have never seen since the Coronation of the current Queen,anyone dressed for what would be termed a "court levee"e.g.white stockings and knee breech's".To see the full costume see the late David Niven in "fiftyfive days at Peking".Also in that time I have only seen one "White tie and tails " occasion and that was at a hunt ball for guests who were not members of the hunt,and at state banquets for visiting heads of state.Our Prime minister,a man infamous for his boorish behaviour in the manner of formal dress when Chancellor of the exchecker,used the occasion to wear his first formal evening clothes for the banquet for the french president.At all other occasions a dinner jacket is considered normal formal evening dress,at least in Scotland where my part time work with a catering firm makes me an observer of this.On a lighte note,the highland dress version of court levee dress involves wearing a broadsword and pistols and powder horn.what security would make of this in this days would be interesting!


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Midnight Blue said:


> At the risk of beating a dead horse, I have had some further thoughts that I wanted to pass on for a couple of reasons. First, you seem to be genuinely concerned about being overdressed and the fact is that you will certainly be embarassed with your boyfriend's current choices. Having been there myself, I am hoping I can help you avoid it. Secondly, I have developed an odd affection for formal wear over the four years I have been studying it and wearing it and I hate to see it abused. Just as wearing incorrect attire to an appropriate occasion makes formal wear look bad, so does wearing correct attire to an inappropriate occasion. Unfortunately your very elegant tailcoat ensemble will almost certainly look like a stage costume to the upper crust (and everyone else) attending this wedding.
> 
> You say that your boyfriend is a stickler for detail (as am I) so I have some information that I think you will definitely want to pass on to him: when it comes to traditional formal weddings the fact is that white tie is only for members of the wedding party, _not_ for guests. This comes right from one of the most conservative and respected etiquette authorities around: the Emily Post series. While the book's author agrees that male guests may wear morning dress to a formal afternoon wedding she is very clear that formal evening weddings require guests to dress in a tuxedo if women wear long dresses or in a dark suit & tie otherwise.
> 
> I can't emphasize enough how insulting it would be to hijack someone else's wedding and I implore you to save the tailcoats until your own nuptials when your boyfriend can be as extravagant as he wants to!


I have expressed some concerns to him but we are going ahead with the morning suits to the service and w&t to the dinner. The wedding parting are wearing tails too.


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

We went for our morning suit fittings today. I must say they do look nice.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I am probably going to be accused of (more) pedantry here but if I may, I would like to say one thing about the expression "morning suit". The word "suit" comes from the world "suivre" in French - to follow. Only if the fabric of the trousers "follow" that of the coat is it a suit.

Morning suits do exist:

These are worn at Ascot in England, but pretty much nowhere else.

When a morning coat is matched with non-matching striped morning trousers the whole thing is _morning dress_. But a suit it is not. Likewise with a sports coat and non-matching trousers - that too is not a suit.

Also I would like to remind the American tradly sorts that the traditional American term for the coat in question is a "cutaway". I notice that Americans here mostly use the British English term "morning coat".

Here are the words to Irving Berlin's "Puttin' on the Ritz":

_Have you seen the well-to-do
Up and down park avenue
On that famous thoroughfare
With their noses in the air

High hats and narrow collars
White spats and lots of dollars
Spending every dime
For a wonderful time

Now, if you're blue
And you don't know where to go to
Why don't you go where fashion sits
Puttin' on the Ritz
Different types who wear a *day coat*
*Pants with stripes and cutaway coat*
Perfect fits
Puttin on the Ritz

Dressed up like a million dollar trooper
Trying hard to look like Gary Cooper
Super-duper_​
Notice that the lyrics specifically call the "cutaway coat" a "day coat"


----------



## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Morning _suits _are also worn at weddings* and garden parties.

*W_B*

*where only the groom, father of the bride or The Prince of Wales may wear grey.


----------



## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Sator;745556Here are the words to Irving Berlin's "Puttin' on the Ritz":
[INDENT said:


> _Have you seen the well-to-do
> Up and down park avenue
> On that famous thoroughfare
> With their noses in the air
> ...


Would not the "day coat" refer to a stroller as the line fully reads:
Differant types who wear a day coat, pants with stripes and cutaway coat.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

David V said:


> Would not the "day coat" refer to a stroller as the line fully reads:
> Differant types who wear a day coat, pants with stripes and cutaway coat.


Berlin has specifically set cutaway coat to rhyme with day coat. Cutaway being American English for a morning coat. Why on earth would it refer to *anything* else?

I suspect that the punctuation should be:

"Different types who wear a day coat - pants with stripes and cutaway coat"

It is perhaps repetitive to say "day coat" and then "cutaway" but it is obviously worded that way more so it fits into the rhyme. It is also highly unusual to refer to any type of lounge coat as a "day coat". Next there is a specific reference to tops hats (high hats), which are usually worn only with full dress. I suspect "narrow collars" also refers to stiff detachable stand up collars which were very narrow at the front - often without the wings which helped to open up the collar:










Even when there were wings these were often designed so that they still did not open up the front of the collar:










As you can see the collars are very narrow.

Like the top hat, a detachable stand up collar would only be worn with full dress.


----------



## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Sator said:


> Morning suits do exist:
> 
> ...


Not to digress, but how about the fit of the shirt sleeves? Is is a tad "generous" or is it possibly because HRH is in motion? Also, the jacket sleeve seems to have a crease pressed into it.

I am a bit color blind, but the pocket square seems to match the color of the body of the shirt rather closely...

Comments, anyone?


----------



## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

As long as the PS dosn't match the tie I'm OK with it. I fall on the side of showing a lot of cuff.Especially in formal wear.


----------



## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Sator said:


> I suspect "narrow collars" also refers to stiff detachable stand up collars which were very narrow at the front - often without the wings which helped to open up the collar:


The rewriten lyric is "Arrow collars". Arrow, of course, is a well know American shirt maker.
However, the original lyrics refers to Colored collars and the rest are quite racist.

Now that my posts have pulled us far from topic I will move along.


----------



## Topper (May 5, 2007)

"Morning Dress" is the term used to describe a "dress" code. And underneath that there are a subset of options.

"Morning Coat", which normally is a Morning tailcoat ( or "Cutaway" in the US) though a Morning Coat could also include a Frockcoat, but is not that common anymore. 

Morning coats can be worn with or without matching trousers, and the the term "Morning Suit" is in often corrrectly used, and can only used if coat matches the wasitcoat and trousers ( As Sator indicates)


----------



## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Orsini said:


> Not to digress, but how about the fit of the shirt sleeves? Is is a tad "generous" or is it possibly because HRH is in motion? Also, the jacket sleeve seems to have a crease pressed into it.
> 
> I am a bit color blind, but the pocket square seems to match the color of the body of the shirt rather closely...
> 
> Comments, anyone?


The pressed sleeve is a foible of the PoW or, more likely, a foible of his batman. I am not sure of its significance. I know in the UK military that a pressed shirt sleeve is a requirement of the lower ranks.

*W_B*


----------



## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Sorry, this has gone way off topic.

*W_B*


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Orsini said:


> Also, the *jacket* sleeve seems to have a crease pressed into it.


In another fit of pedantry I feel compelled to nit pick on the fact that the POW is wearing a *coat*. It is not a jacket.

I have noticed an alarming tendency to call all coats - even overcoats - "jackets". A jacket is a subspecies of "coat" but one which is short. A morning coat (cutaway) is long and therefore not a jacket. "Morning jacket" is another way of saying "lounge coat" - or in American English, a "stroller".


----------



## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Sator said:


> In another fit of pedantry I feel compelled to nit pick on the fact that the POW is wearing a *coat*. It is not a jacket.
> 
> I have noticed an alarming tendency to call all coats - even overcoats - "jackets". A jacket is a subspecies of "coat" but one which is short. A morning coat (cutaway) is long and therefore not a jacket. "Morning jacket" is another way of saying "lounge coat" - or in American English, a "stroller".


Thank you for pointing that out. I will remember that.

Any comments on that shirt sleeve length? There must be a good reason for it...


----------



## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

whistle_blower71 said:


> The pressed sleeve is a foible of the PoW or, more likely, a foible of his batman. I am not sure of its significance. I know in the UK military that a pressed shirt sleeve is a requirement of the lower ranks.
> 
> *W_B*


Gee...a batman. That is somewhat like a valet, isn't it? It seems to me like one or two hissy fits should cure the batman of that particular foible.

Too bad the White House does not have a batman/valet...


----------



## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Orsini said:


> Thank you for pointing that out. I will remember that.
> 
> Any comments on that shirt sleeve length? There must be a good reason for it...


As I mentioned, it may be that he, as I, likes to show more cuff in formalwear.


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Well we went to the wedding yesterday. The men were about half in half suits and tuxedos. The bride and grooms male family members were all in morning dress. We were the only 2 guests dressed that way. At the dinner the wedding party remained in tailcoats but the bride and groom's fathers changed to black tie. We were the only 2 in white tie except the bride's grandfather.


----------



## p.o.t.u.s (Feb 28, 2008)

suitandtieguy said:


> We were the only 2 in white tie except the bride's grandfather.


Well, that sounds like it may have been a bit awkward!


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

suitandtieguy said:


> Well we went to the wedding yesterday. The men were about half in half suits and tuxedos. The bride and grooms male family members were all in morning dress. We were the only 2 guests dressed that way. At the dinner the wedding party remained in tailcoats but the bride and groom's fathers changed to black tie. We were the only 2 in white tie except the bride's grandfather.


What did I tell you!!!!


----------



## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

suitandtieguy said:


> We were the only 2 in white tie except the bride's grandfather.


And how did you feel about that? 
It's a shame you didn't take the advice offered by the people on this board.


----------



## Oxonian (May 1, 2007)

Midnight Blue said:


> And how did you feel about that?
> It's a shame you didn't take the advice offered by the people on this board.


+1...


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Midnight Blue said:


> And how did you feel about that?
> It's a shame you didn't take the advice offered by the people on this board.


I felt a little awkward although we did not get any coments. I was especially self concious when we danced together. m


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Midnight Blue said:


> And how did you feel about that?
> It's a shame you didn't take the advice offered by the people on this board.


I felt a bit self concious but we did not receive any negative comments or undo stares. I did feel uncomfortable when we danced together.


----------

