# Cold weather essentials?



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

So here's the backstory: My girlfriend and I have changed our plans. Instead of Los Angeles, we'll be moving in Albuquerque in a couple of months. For a variety of reasons, this will work out a lot better for us. Only problem is that it gets significantly colder and drier than Florida in winter -- all the way up to March and April sometimes! I'm not really equipped to deal with 30 degree days. I have a cheap pea coat, some cotton sweaters that aren't very good quality, a few pairs of medium thickness wool socks, and a couple of waffle-knit thermal bottoms and tops. In short, it's been quite a long time since I travelled anywhere that snows during the winter.

So, what would you guys recommend for surviving a winter over there? I post in this forum because the style of functional clothing I like generally falls into the "Trad" category. I'm not looking to spend or get too much right away, so something like a Barbour is out of the question. Some is common sense or obvious (like thick wool crewneck sweaters and Bean boots), though I'd like a second opinion and brand/thrifting suggestions just to make sure I won't be wasting money. Advice from anyone from anyone in the area would be especially welcome.

Thanks ahead of time for any help.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

That's going to be tough. Albuquerque isn't a very Trad town. You're in the American Southwest and Western will be the dominant theme. Keeping warm in that part of the world starts with quilted jackets, lined jeans and boots along the lines of snow pacs. By avoiding the highest end fillers, like down, you can get the first reasonably inexpensively and lined jeans don't cost an arm and a leg. The killer is good footwear. You not only have to keep your feet warm but you need to be able to negotiate terrain where the sun is bright in the daytime and melts the snow. Then, when the sun goes down you get black ice. There isn't anything more treacherous.

Then, of course, when the season changes the big hats come out.

Good luck. There is some serious eating to be done in Albuquerque.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Believe me, I tried as much as I could when I was over there in August. 

So you think I should give up OCBDs, boat shoes, and other such items? That wouldn't really feel "me".


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## DFPyne (Mar 2, 2010)

Jovan said:


> So you think I should give up OCBDs, boat shoes, and other such items? That wouldn't really feel "me".


A basic rule I follow is boat shoes in the Spring and Summer and then Camp Mocs in the Fall and Winter. The Sperry sole isn't very significant at all and I've found L.L. Bean Moccasin sole stand up fairly well. However, I don't encounter very much serious snow so this might not apply here.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I'd go with a Western persona and leave that Trad stuff behind. New town, new life, new look. You may even want to drop the monikor, Jovan, which is kind of prissy and take up something like 'Gus'. 

If you think of it, I'm sure there is lots of Western Trad for you to build on. I'm not suggesting gaudy belt buckles and conchos, but sheepskin coat, simple, veal-soft boots, and buckskin chaps.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I lived in ABQ for seven years or so. Remember, it's the other mile-high city.

Stick to your style as best you can, and invest in some silk long johns, which cover all sorts of contingencies.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

What follows is a customary and reliable recommendation made by experienced cold weather/mountaineering types to persons new to the environment. Until you learn for yourself what garments fit your metabolism, style and cold weather habits, go to your nearest REI and ask the oldest sales associate you can find. The feeling here is that REI seldom does much wrong. They may not stock or recommend what will be the very best for you, but until you learn, you can be assured that their stuff is solid, durable, usually tested and reasonably priced.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Jovan

For you not that much of a switch in clothing. You will have 105-110 dry summers, less the humidity.
You probably will do fine with your khakis, poplins for the summers in New Mexico. I spent a lot of time here, during the service. Many trips for desert training at White Sands Range, Magregor, and Donna Anna .

You will not need a down parka. For the winter, the desert gets cold, even below freezing.
My advice, you should go with what you wear there.In Florida during the summer.
For the winters out there you will have cool days.Cold.
I recommend a cheap , thinsulate parka from Bean . You will do fine with a couple flannel shirts. For slacks, khaki heavy weight will be fine.
It should not be much of a change, except during the winter, when it dips out there at night.Can never go wrong with silk long johms, or actually Patagonia capiline base layer, mid weight. I would get the EMS or REI equivalent.
Stay away from the Yucca, this is where rattlers hide!!!
Enjoy your trip

Nice day


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Jovan, I think that us Nor'eastern trads have cold weather figured out and I haven't had to give up OCBDs or boat shoes. My suggestion is to stock up on Shetland wool crew necks. Ebay is a cornucopia of high quality Shetlands for next to nothing. Heavy Harris tweed sport coats are also plentiful and can help you avoid having to purchase a heavy winter coat. If you do want a "Barbouresuqe" jacket without the price tag (which is nice as an outer layer for cutting wind and precipitation), I'd take a look at Campbell Cooper's ebay store. They're made in England and look to be pretty close to Barbour in terms of construction.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

You'll be arriving at the beginning of March or thereabouts, but I'm not sure how long you'll be there. That could, potentially, make a difference. I have visited NM only briefly, and not during winter, but I suspect you'll be there at the tail end of the season. I think whether you'll spend a full winter there is important.

Regardless, I would start out with a pair of good long underwear. Patrick recommends silk, which is a good choice, but I would also consider capilene, weight 1, by Patagonia, which I suspect will be cheaper and easier to find. It is not in any way a compromise, however. For many who live in places where the weather turns cold, Patagonia One is go-to stuff because it is light, thin and warm, ideal for wearing under your regular every day dress.

I concur with the sentiment that you dress in your own style. I would not dress like a cowboy simply because I lived in cowboy country, and especially if I did not intend to live there forever. I should think that simple, conservative dress of the sort espoused here would be the way to go.

That said, the next step, after underwear, is footwear. If I were living in a place where significant snow was expected on a regular basis, I would get myself a pair of Sorel snow boots. Look for the ones made in Canada, not China--they're widely available on eBay. Then I would get myself a pair of mid-weight SmartWool socks to wear with those boots.

If you won't be needing a down coat, then I would suggest a wool duffle coat, which is appropriate for both casual and business use--expect to pay about $75 secondhand for a good one. If you want something dressier, good wool top coats are a dime a dozen, so much so that I have stopped buying them at thrifts because they're impossible to flip, and I already have a bazillion for myself. If you want one, I would suggest putting a shout-out on the exchange that includes your measurements. Between now and your move, someone is bound to find one for no more than $40 CONUS.

Next is a muffler, which isn't very expensive but will dramatically increase the range on the downward end of whatever coat you are wearing. Get a decent one--life's too short, and cheap ones look cheap--and there's no excuse with Pendletons or better available on the exchange for about $15. And if you can't find one, PM me. I have several.

You'll also need a hat. No biggie there. Grab the nearest available wool or fleece or wool-and-fleece one for ten bucks or so, and make sure it can cover your ears. When it gets cold enough that you need to wear a hat, no one cares about fashion. Ditto for gloves. If I were on a budget, I would consider ragg wool ones. If I could spend a bit more, I'd get leather ones with cashmere lining. They're generally available this time of year for about $50.

Finally, a crewneck wool pullover sweater. You can find a cheap new one for about $35 this time of year or a good used one for about $20. I'd go with the latter.

Those are the essentials. Really, you should be able to do fine, especially at the tail end of winter, with that kit. Optional, but well worth considering, would be an LL Bean chamois shirt and/or a Pendleton wool shirt for casual wear. The essence of toasty. Expect to pay less than $20, shipped, for a secondhand chamois and no more than $30--and that's the very top end--for a good used Pendleton. You might also consider getting a secondhand Harris Tweed sport coat. Durable, attractive and, at around $30-$40 secondhand, a bargain. 

If you stay in a colder clime for an extended period of time, then you can consider a more extensive wardrobe--flannel suits, more tweed sport coats, a second pair of Patagonia underwear. But you should be able to acquire all of the above for around $200 on the secondary market, if you start now.

Good luck.


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## SconnieTrad (Mar 16, 2011)

A note on 32roll's suggestion of cashmere-lined leather gloves, Lands' End has them available for $39.99. I have a pair that are 3 years old and still going strong. I wouldn't use them for changing a tire, but for scraping windshields and protecting your hands from a frigid steering wheel they can't be beat at that price.

link:


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## Timeisaperception (Oct 26, 2011)

Although I'm a fellow Floridian, I can tell you that you'll want to grab some Pendletons if you can find them. I'm wearing one of their 'Country Traditionals' that I picked up a while back and it's working great for the cold snap. Other than that, I'd say get some flannel lined jeans and khakis (shop around - Texas Jeans started doing a pair, and occasionally they have sales.) For socks on the cheap, Big Lots sometimes carries wool-blend socks that could work as a pretty good base layer if you have boots (5 bucks a pack at the one a town over from me.)

On a final note, I think Under Armour sells some thermal tops/bottoms - don't know if they're still available, but the ones I have work great. Just remember that with all the wool you'll probably be wearing, you can carry a mean static charge :tongue2:


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## M Go Crimson (Aug 20, 2011)

Step 1: Wear what you would normally wear in Florida until you are immune to the cold
Step 2: Save money
Step 3: ..?
Step 4: Profit?


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Timeisaperception said:


> On a final note, I think Under Armour sells some thermal tops/bottoms - don't know if they're still available, but the ones I have work great. _Just remember that with all the wool you'll probably be wearing, you can carry a mean static charge _:tongue2:


This is true! The Southwestern air gets something fierce dry when it's cold. Save annoying the gf by touching your shirt or jacket cuff to a water faucet when you come indoors. It will ground out the spark that would otherwise make her jump--unless you like that sort of thing, of course . . .


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

Wait until you get there and see what others are wearing and how that jibes with what you like. 

I had a long post typed out about my family moving to Alaska and it got lost because I hit the wrong button.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

I got some good ideas for my Ohio winter here.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

hardline_42 said:


> Jovan, I think that us Nor'eastern trads have cold weather figured out and I haven't had to give up OCBDs or boat shoes. My suggestion is to stock up on Shetland wool crew necks. Ebay is a cornucopia of high quality Shetlands for next to nothing. Heavy Harris tweed sport coats are also plentiful and can help you avoid having to purchase a heavy winter coat. If you do want a "Barbouresuqe" jacket without the price tag (which is nice as an outer layer for cutting wind and precipitation), I'd take a look at Campbell Cooper's ebay store. They're made in England and look to be pretty close to Barbour in terms of construction.


This is good advice. I don't think you need to go overboard; it will be cold in winter but I assume they have central heating in NM? In fact, some of my coldest moments have been spent indoors in Florida suffering from excessive air conditioning. My winter uniform here is crew neck sweater over oxford shirt; khaki pants or corduroys; and medium weight socks. These are relatively minor concessions to the weather. Of course gloves and muffler for outdoors


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## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

I'd second the rec above regarding Pendleton. I've got two of their Mackinaw-type jackets that I've thrifted--similar to what 32RnR listed on the exchange a few weeks back. They're great for brisk but not freezing weather. With a sweater underneath I think they'd be ideal for that type of weather. Plus, they have a Western tinge that might fit in well also.


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## Ekphrastic (Oct 4, 2009)

I'd also second the suggestion to visit REI for _really_ cold weather stuff. 32's suggestions are spot-on, of course, for most of what you'll encounter there, or so I imagine. I used to live in Salt Lake City, and, when it got super cold (it gets colder there than Albuquerque, but still), I confess dressing stylishly went completely out the window in the name of survival. (This is bringing back memories of driving to work when it was two degrees outside.)

Thankfully, the Tradly desiderata previous posts have suggested--duffle coats, etc.--will likely suffice for most. And, having lived in a place where Western wear isn't uncommon, I wouldn't worry about trying to dress Western to fit in (unless you want to, of course). There will be plenty of people dressing every which way, I'd imagine.


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## Regillus (Mar 15, 2011)

I'd suggest you get a long coat with a wool liner. Something that comes down to the knees or thereabouts. Preferably water-resistant.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks for the advice, guys. To answer a common question, I'll be living there for at least two years in all likelihood.

Regarding sweaters, I was considering getting the but if I can find a Shetland or two secondhand for half the price, all the better. Only problem is that most older Medium/40" sized sweaters have sleeves too short for my arms when I search around on eBay. I need a 25" sleeve or more but they most often have 23" or 24" sleeves.

Silk long johns: What brands do you recommend for that? Is there a good place to get them on the cheap? I was originally thinking of going with military surplus polypropylene (and may still in addition to silk), but it's quite thick for wearing with clothing other than snow/ski gear.

Duffel coat seems like a great idea. I already have a hooded down coat but would prefer to have something a little more appropriate for going into town. I forget if this was answered on the forum before, but are they appropriate for wearing over suits, too? If not I may need an overcoat as well.

Lastly, I need a pair of Bean boots for sure, but which ones would be the most versatile overall? Thinking about the Rubber Moc since it will be good for rain as well as snow and they're stylish in a weird sort of way, but I'll defer to everyone else's expertise.

If I missed anything let me know. Thanks again for the help, gents. 

EDIT: My measurements, in case anyone knows of or is willing to sell some of the aforementioned items in this thread -- 40L coat, 35/31 trouser, 16/35 shirt, 11D US shoe


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

> Regarding sweaters, I was considering getting the but if I can find a Shetland or two secondhand for half the price, all the better. Only problem is that most older Medium/40" sized sweaters have sleeves too short for my arms when I search around on eBay. I need a 25" sleeve or more but they most often have 23" or 24" sleeves.


As you know, I didn't go through with a purchase from Woolovers because I was concerned about sizing, complicated international returns, and lack of familiarity with "British wool." It doesn't mean it's a bad sweater by any means, but I'd recommend going with the identically priced LL Bean Shetland if you want to buy new. At least you know you're guaranteed a hassle-free return if needed and you know what Shetland wool looks and feels like. With regards to sleeve length, I'd try blocking a cheaper eBay sweater to see if you can stretch the sleeves to the desired length. It's not hard to do and can solve a host of sizing issues that would make many sweaters unwearable.



> Silk long johns: What brands do you recommend for that? Is there a good place to get them on the cheap? I was originally thinking of going with military surplus polypropylene (and may still in addition to silk), but it's quite thick for wearing with clothing other than snow/ski gear.


The Sportsman's Guide house brand silk underwear seems to get decent reviews, and is moderately priced.



> Lastly, I need a pair of Bean boots for sure, but which ones would be the most versatile overall? Thinking about the Rubber Moc since it will be good for rain as well as snow and they're stylish in a weird sort of way, but I'll defer to everyone else's expertise.


I would say go for the 8" boot, minimum. The moc is nice for wet manicured lawns and sidewalks. I keep them out year round because they're convenient to put on and take off, but they're cut very low and offer no protection against any accumulated precipitation. They're also non-rebuildable. The gumshoes are my "dress" bean boots. They're less casual looking than a folded-tongue, barrel-knotted moc and offer slightly more protection, but still short enough to be easy on/off. The 6" are an awkward height and neither fish nor fowl. The 8" offers good height and support, and will stand up to anything you're bound to encounter under normal circumstances (living in an urban/suburban environment where accumulated snow is a possibility). If you're in anything deep enough that requires you to tuck your pants in, go for the 10" and above.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Thanks for the advice, guys. To answer a common question, I'll be living there for at least two years in all likelihood.
> 
> Regarding sweaters, I was considering getting the but if I can find a Shetland or two secondhand for half the price, all the better. Only problem is that most older Medium/40" sized sweaters have sleeves too short for my arms when I search around on eBay. I need a 25" sleeve or more but they most often have 23" or 24" sleeves.
> 
> ...


I'd go with thin cotton long johns instead if you are set on natural fabrics. Otherwise thin first layer synthetic will do the trick. That said, I rarely put on long johns even when it's 25 below freezing (C°) unless going for a long walk. I just put on a parka. Long johns are a nuisance to wear inside.

HM has functional cotton long johns for men, cheap.

I would pair a suit with an overcoat rather than duffel, although they are an acceptable pairing IMO.

I'd rather have a higher boot than the rubber moc, a Maine hunting shoe for example. It needs to have a lining or you need to be able to put thick socks into them. Cold transfer from the ground into you feet is the worst kind. The 6" boots should do but I'd get higher ones.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Jovan: Just a thought, but why not wait until you get there to do your shopping, thereby reducing the amount you have to move and keeping your options open as to what you might buy? You can always stick with your Trad dress options and even if you stand out in the crowd, the differences are not going to be all that noticeable and certainly won't prove objectionable.. As for your cold weather gear, I have known cold (real cold) and ABQ really is not a challenging climate to accommodate! By the time you get there things will have warmed up for the year. Good luck with the relocation.


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

As far as jackets go: you should get some sort of shell with a zip in insert (North Face, Patagonia, etc.) for weekends, working outside, etc., in addition to a duffel coat or something dressier. A scarf, hat, ear warmers, and boots are also essentials. Long underwear is nice, but I don't think it's something you absolutely have to have. Lightweight boots too.

I made it through 4 years of college in Boston with no footwear other than new balance sneakers and topsiders and managed to survive (though I can't tell you why I never bought boots). You should be just fine.


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## geologic (Oct 6, 2010)

*Albuquerque experience*

It's been a while since I've been to Albuquerque, but I used to spend a fair amount of time there.

I think the prospect of winter as you imagine it has you barking up the wrong tree to some extent: although there is snow, generally you'll be dealing with cold and dry winters, with a bit of rain and snow mixed in. If you look to the climate data, you can see that you can expect about half an inch of rain and an inch or two of snow in each of the winter months (not to say that there isn't the occasional snowstorm that brings a wallop -- a couple years ago they got up to two feet in a storm). Unless you go up in the mountains (the Sandias are right next to the city), cold weather precipitation will probably not be your problem.

Bean Boots will not serve you well. Something more like RedWings, Chippewas, or Georgia Boots might. Most of the time you'll be fine in regular shoes. Given the distance to the nearest boating, I might recommend camp mocs over boat shoes, but either will be fine. So will any shoe made by Allen Edmonds or Alden or the usual suspects.

As for outerwear, it sounds from your description like your peacoat may be a little too insubstantial, but any decent wool duffel coat or overcoat will serve you well. I wouldn't call a duffel coat over a suit "proper," but it's definitely trad and I'm sure it will be accepted in casual New Mexico. Being used to Florida warmth, you'll feel the cold more than others (I've done the hot climate to cold move myself, in the past), but you've got a hooded down coat for when it gets just too cold. I'd never steer anybody away from a Barbour if they want one, but it's really better suited for a different climate -- on the other hand, it could be just the thing for Albuquerque's long spring and autumn.

The thing that people may not appreciate is that in the Southwest, because the weather is usually so darn nice, houses and apartments are often under-insulated and under-heated. So long underwear, wool sweaters, wool socks, and blazers or sportcoats will be your friends. Most of the blazers and sportcoats I've seen of yours on the WAYWT thread will be perfectly appropriate, but a couple tweeds or heavier blazers can't hurt. You'll have to navigate your own way to finding sweaters that fit, but I definitely endorse the Shetland idea. Hard to beat for the price, if they end up fitting you. Any kind of long underwear will be better than none, but I think silk will probably suit your needs best. Silk long underwear is basically a commodity product. I also find that it's warmer while remaining thin and non-bulky than synthetics, and in Albuquerque you won't miss synthetics' better moisture-handling. I get mine from Lands End and Amazon (mostly thermasilk brand), but it's also available from Bean. Amazon's prices are probably the best.

Warm hat that covers your ears. Wool or leather gloves. Done.

Remember: most of the time, the weather will be really nice in Albuquerque. Most of the wardrobe I can recall that you've posted on the WAYWT thread will be appropriate most of the time, although you'll probably get even more looks for wearing a tie than you do in Florida. You just need to supplement your existing wardrobe a little (long underwear, sweaters, sportcoats, coat, hat, gloves). Stay Trad.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks for the post. So I should give up on Bean Boots altogether? I was planning on getting a pair of the Rubber Moc for rainy days, whether it's there or Los Angeles (where I may be flying to occasionally for work).



eagle2250 said:


> Jovan: Just a thought, but why not wait until you get there to do your shopping, thereby reducing the amount you have to move and keeping your options open as to what you might buy? You can always stick with your Trad dress options and even if you stand out in the crowd, the differences are not going to be all that noticeable and certainly won't prove objectionable.. As for your cold weather gear, I have known cold (real cold) and ABQ really is not a challenging climate to accommodate! By the time you get there things will have warmed up for the year. Good luck with the relocation.


I may wait until I get there for some of the heavier/bulkier stuff.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

As a life long Angeleno, I would not recommend the Bean mocs for SoCal. Either you don't need them because it isn't raining (the vast majority of the year) or it's coming down so d****d hard the puddles slosh over the sides. We don't get much rain but what we get comes all at once! A plain pair of ankle height or so pullover boots will keep your feet dry in L.A. and surrounding environs. And don't worry about slipping. We have no cobblestones, just concrete and asphalt to walk on.


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

Bjorn said:


> I'd go with thin cotton long johns instead if you are set on natural fabrics. Otherwise thin first layer synthetic will do the trick. That said, I rarely put on long johns even when it's 25 below freezing (C°) unless going for a long walk. I just put on a parka. Long johns are a nuisance to wear inside.
> 
> HM has functional cotton long johns for men, cheap.


Cotton long johns is simply wasted money, as soon as you bring up the slightest sweat, that's going to stay with you all day. Ever noticed how long it takes to dry a cotton sweater flat compared to wool? Wool also keeps warm when wet. If you insist on long underwear, thin merino is the way to go, but I doubt you will need it in Albuquerque unless you're unusually sensitive to cold.

I can recommend a good wool undershirt though. As mentioned cotton "traps" moisture, so wearing wool under cotton is usually a better idea than the other way around, especially if moving in and out of heated areas.

I take it you will be walking most of the time you're outside? If so, then just focus on keeping your head, neck, feet (wool socks and wool felt insoles) and hands warm, and you shouldn't have much trouble.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I would have thought the same thing, but give credence to a poster from Scandanavia.



fiddler said:


> Cotton long johns is simply wasted money, as soon as you bring up the slightest sweat, that's going to stay with you all day. Ever noticed how long it takes to dry a cotton sweater flat compared to wool? Wool also keeps warm when wet. If you insist on long underwear, thin merino is the way to go, but I doubt you will need it in Albuquerque unless you're unusually sensitive to cold.
> 
> I can recommend a good wool undershirt though. As mentioned cotton "traps" moisture, so wearing wool under cotton is usually a better idea than the other way around, especially if moving in and out of heated areas.
> 
> I take it you will be walking most of the time you're outside? If so, then just focus on keeping your head, neck, feet (wool socks and wool felt insoles) and hands warm, and you shouldn't have much trouble.


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## Tourist Trophy Garage (Nov 24, 2011)

I had the overcoat condundrum a few years ago when we went to Chicago in the winter.

I got a charcoal John Partridge duffel and don't regret it. Totally versatile coat for everything, as far as I'm concerned.

The weather didn't top 50 F yesterday, so I broke it out--(Didn't post in the waywt because of the busted 501s [one rinse when new, all my wear] and the fact that all my looks are pretty much the same- blue sweater, gingham shirt)


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

That's a good looking duffle coat. I'm torn between a duffle and a peacoat for my next purchase. Thought maybe a duffle would be a little too warm for the typical Cincinnati winter, but I think I prefer the look.


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

^ If it's cold enough for a duffel, it should certainly be too cold for a bare knee?



32rollandrock said:


> I would have thought the same thing, but give credence to a poster from Scandanavia.


Who cares about city-slicker swedes? Been living in Norway all my life, and have always been taught to keep wool next to skin. Wouldn't risk anything else.

This should be common sense. Do you believe cotton suddenly gets new properties that makes it dry faster when it's on your skin?


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Wool, sure, when there was no alternative. But modern synthetics have insulating qualities that are equally good, if not better, they dry quickly if, heaven forbid, they get wet (and, like wool, retain insulating ability when wet), they are less bulky, they're not scratchy and they are easier to clean--try throwing wool underwear in the washing machine, then the dryer so you can wear it again within an hour. I'm all for nostalgia when it comes to clothes, but not when it comes to wool underwear.



fiddler said:


> Who cares about city-slicker swedes? Been living in Norway all my life, and have always been taught to keep wool next to skin. Wouldn't risk anything else.
> 
> This should be common sense. Do you believe cotton suddenly gets new properties that makes it dry faster when it's on your skin?


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## Tourist Trophy Garage (Nov 24, 2011)

ArtVandalay said:


> That's a good looking duffle coat. I'm torn between a duffle and a peacoat for my next purchase. Thought maybe a duffle would be a little too warm for the typical Cincinnati winter, but I think I prefer the look.


I had a surplus pea coat in the early 90s when I still lived down the river from Cincinnati. My recollection is that it was about the same weight as the duffel, very warm, much softer, and more fitted in the body. I like the added length of the duffel, however, and surplus pea coats don't seem to be cheap and plentiful anymore.



fiddler said:


> ^ If it's cold enough for a duffel, it should certainly be too cold for a bare knee?


Point taken. I promise I won't post any more debauched blue jeans in the Trad Forum. Most folks would not consider it at all cold enough for the coat anyway. 50 F = 10 C. I know I looked foolish, but I was warm and enjoying an item of clothing I only get to use about twice a year.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

Tourist Trophy Garage said:


> I had a surplus pea coat in the early 90s when I still lived down the river from Cincinnati. My recollection is that it was about the same weight as the duffel, very warm, much softer, and more fitted in the body. I like the added length of the duffel, however, and surplus pea coats don't seem to be cheap and plentiful anymore.
> 
> Point taken. I promise I won't post any more debauched blue jeans in the Trad Forum. Most folks would not consider it at all cold enough for the coat anyway. 50 F = 10 C. I know I looked foolish, but I was warm and enjoying an item of clothing I only get to use about twice a year.


I feel your pain. It got to 67 degrees here today. Nice coat BTW!


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## cmacey (May 3, 2009)

fiddler said:


> ^ If it's cold enough for a duffel, it should certainly be too cold for a bare knee?
> 
> Who cares about city-slicker swedes? Been living in Norway all my life, and have always been taught to keep wool next to skin. Wouldn't risk anything else.
> 
> This should be common sense. Do you believe cotton suddenly gets new properties that makes it dry faster when it's on your skin?


+1! The old mountaineering saying, "cotton kills." Wool is the only way to go, especially during winter outdoor activities. Whether in Korean winters, winter hiking in Northern Italy or Scotland, etc., etc., etc.; wool has always been my go to material.


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## cecil47 (Oct 25, 2009)

Seriously Jovan, we may be a mile high but we're pretty far south, and in the high desert. You're talking 2-3 snowfalls per year average. It gets cold a few weeks each year, but not bitterly cold for very long. Yesterday, it was a blazer and khakis to work, today a corduroy SC. Before Christmas it was colder and I wore an insulated tweed LLB SC or a barn jacket with a sweater. I live in shorts 7-8 months a year, but summers are not Africa hot, either. Disregard anyone from back east who tells you it's 105-110 in the summer. Over 100 a few times a year, sometimes not at all. It is dry, really dry...


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## AlfaNovember (Jun 27, 2011)

geologic said:


> The thing that people may not appreciate is that in the Southwest, because the weather is usually so darn nice, houses and apartments are often under-insulated and under-heated.


This. My brother lives north of ABQ, and the brick-over-slab floors and adobe walls of his house are always deeply chilly in wintertime. Conversely, his place is nice and cool in the summer heat.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks for the help, cecil.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

fiddler said:


> Cotton long johns is simply wasted money, as soon as you bring up the slightest sweat, that's going to stay with you all day. Ever noticed how long it takes to dry a cotton sweater flat compared to wool? Wool also keeps warm when wet. If you insist on long underwear, thin merino is the way to go, but I doubt you will need it in Albuquerque unless you're unusually sensitive to cold.
> 
> I can recommend a good wool undershirt though. As mentioned cotton "traps" moisture, so wearing wool under cotton is usually a better idea than the other way around, especially if moving in and out of heated areas.
> 
> I take it you will be walking most of the time you're outside? If so, then just focus on keeping your head, neck, feet (wool socks and wool felt insoles) and hands warm, and you shouldn't have much trouble.


I would prefer synthetics over cotton or wool, but I rarely wear long johns. You are largely correct as to cotton trapping moisture, however thin cotton long johns of the cheaper kind are often 5-10% synthetic and work quite well.

I also recommend foregoing long johns and keeping head and feet warm instead. It's awkward taking your pants of when visiting your neighbor and even more awkwardly to lounge around all evening in pants with long johns under.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

fiddler said:


> ^ If it's cold enough for a duffel, it should certainly be too cold for a bare knee?
> 
> Who cares about city-slicker swedes? Been living in Norway all my life, and have always been taught to keep wool next to skin. Wouldn't risk anything else.
> 
> This should be common sense. Do you believe cotton suddenly gets new properties that makes it dry faster when it's on your skin?


As for comparing skills with the near-professional outdoors Norwegians, who would dream to assume


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

Just to keep the long-johns theme going, I'm fully behind the Swede. :icon_smile_big: Sure, growing up I too was told that nothing beats wool next to the skin when it's cold, but that's because wool and cotton was all there was. Today's fancy synthetic fabrics hadn't been invented yet and silk underwear was for kings and queens.

Seriously though, you only need wool undergarments if you're going to get seriously hot and sweaty, since it doesn't leave you cold and clammy. Even then, wool would be next to last choice if I needed an extra layer these days, because unlike wool the man made alternatives won't make you feel as though someone emptied an ant hill down the back of your shirt. And if you don't expect to be perspiring by the bucket while out in the cold (Jovan is not a lumberjack or ditch digger I assume), then cotton is an excellent choice - warm, light and very comfortable. And cheap too.


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

32rollandrock said:


> Wool, sure, when there was no alternative. But modern synthetics have insulating qualities that are equally good, if not better, they dry quickly if, heaven forbid, they get wet (and, like wool, retain insulating ability when wet), they are less bulky, they're not scratchy and they are easier to clean--try throwing wool underwear in the washing machine, then the dryer so you can wear it again within an hour. I'm all for nostalgia when it comes to clothes, but not when it comes to wool underwear.


I don't feel this thread needs any more posts. Just making a reply because most of what you're saying here is plain wrong.

Synthetics does have some qualities, wicks away moisture faster, a bit easier to clean, a little longer wearing, but their insulating qualities are nowhere near wool, nor does it keep warm when wet. In fact, it is not very "warm" at all, it simply keeps the cold out. The smooth fibers of synthetics doesn't "trap" the heated air the same way as curly wool fibers too. I've never heard of a modern day outdoor expedition in colder climate where they have used synthetic underwear.

Today good Merino wool underwear has a fabric weight of about 130 g/m2, I wouldn't say that's bulky. Nor is it as scratchy as some people make it out to be.

Wool is not hard to clean either, my wool washing program takes about 40 minutes. It's more or less dry after the spin-cycle. You can also wear it several times as lanolin is slightly antibacterial and keeps odor away.


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## Semper Jeep (Oct 11, 2011)

You've gotten some good advice here and I'd second the suggestions that Bean Boots might be overkill for the amount of precipitation you will get in Albuquerque. I'd also agree with whoever it was that if you want a couple inexpensive wool sweaters that the LL Bean Shetland sweaters are a great value. I have a few and have been very impressed with them - they are a nice lightweight sweater but surprisingly warm. My only complaint is that you cannot get them in as many colors as you can the more expensive ones from O'Connell's.

Regarding outerwear, I'd say your peacoat along with a sweater are probably fine for 90% of the winter days (of course, I've grown up in Michigan and spent a significant amount of time in Maine so maybe I'm more cold-weather tolerant). However, if you plan on doing any significant traveling during the winter months outside of the Albuquerque metro into places like Santa Fe or towards any of the ski areas in the higher elevations you might need something a bit heavier since the weather can change on a dime and the snow can come down pretty heavy. If you want to keep it _trad_, something like the might be a good choice. I have one with the zip-in Mackinaw wool lining and it's plenty warm and the lightly oil-ed finish of the jacket is pretty water/snow repellent. I have a friend in Santa Fe though and based on some of the snow storms he experiences when headed to his cabin north of the Carson National Forest, something like a quality parka might be nice to have in the car with you. Better safe than sorry.

In the end, enjoy your time in Albuquerque. I love the scenery and terrain of the Southwest and the higher elevations and if I could convince my wife to move, New Mexico would be near the top of my list.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Hmm. Guess that's why folks who climb--or trek to--Everest wear synthetic: You can look it up:

https://www.bergadventures.com/v3_trips/asia/everest-basecamp-gear.php

Plain wrong?



fiddler said:


> I don't feel this thread needs any more posts. Just making a reply because most of what you're saying here is plain wrong.
> 
> Synthetics does have some qualities, wicks away moisture faster, a bit easier to clean, a little longer wearing, but their insulating qualities are nowhere near wool, nor does it keep warm when wet. In fact, it is not very "warm" at all, it simply keeps the cold out. The smooth fibers of synthetics doesn't "trap" the heated air the same way as curly wool fibers too. I've never heard of a modern day outdoor expedition in colder climate where they have used synthetic underwear.
> 
> ...


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

ArtVandalay said:


> That's a good looking duffle coat.


No props to the patch madras wall art??


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Semper Jeep said:


> You've gotten some good advice here and I'd second the suggestions that Bean Boots might be overkill for the amount of precipitation you will get in Albuquerque. I'd also agree with whoever it was that if you want a couple inexpensive wool sweaters that the LL Bean Shetland sweaters are a great value. I have a few and have been very impressed with them - they are a nice lightweight sweater but surprisingly warm. My only complaint is that you cannot get them in as many colors as you can the more expensive ones from O'Connell's.
> 
> Regarding outerwear, I'd say your peacoat along with a sweater are probably fine for 90% of the winter days (of course, I've grown up in Michigan and spent a significant amount of time in Maine so maybe I'm more cold-weather tolerant). However, if you plan on doing any significant traveling during the winter months outside of the Albuquerque metro into places like Santa Fe or towards any of the ski areas in the higher elevations you might need something a bit heavier since the weather can change on a dime and the snow can come down pretty heavy. If you want to keep it _trad_, something like the might be a good choice. I have one with the zip-in Mackinaw wool lining and it's plenty warm and the lightly oil-ed finish of the jacket is pretty water/snow repellent. I have a friend in Santa Fe though and based on some of the snow storms he experiences when headed to his cabin north of the Carson National Forest, something like a quality parka might be nice to have in the car with you. Better safe than sorry.
> 
> In the end, enjoy your time in Albuquerque. I love the scenery and terrain of the Southwest and the higher elevations and if I could convince my wife to move, New Mexico would be near the top of my list.


Thanks for the advice. I would try an L.L. Bean Shetland, but all they have for Medium is this dark brown colour that I'm not very fond of. Guess I'll have to wait until next winter.


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

32rollandrock said:


> Hmm. Guess that's why folks who climb--or trek to--Everest wear synthetic: You can look it up:
> 
> https://www.bergadventures.com/v3_trips/asia/everest-basecamp-gear.php
> 
> Plain wrong?


You haven't really proved anything apart from saying it's recommended on a guided trek, which is hardly an expedition. But I agree my reply was rather brash, I see synthetics has found it's way into a number of expeditions. Here's from Mike Horns Equipment list on his south pole trek in 2008-2009: 


_"- Two layers 100% wool, 1 synthetic outer layer" _

Anyhow, my point is that wool is in no way an outdated fabric, and unlike models using synthetics, you know what you're getting and how it performs before buying. After all wool has been developed by nature for thousands of years.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Here's a link to a gear list for International Mountain Guides, which guides climbs of Denali, Mount Rainier and several other peaks:

https://www.mountainguides.com/denali-gear.shtml

I grew up 30 minutes from Mount Rainier. I know climbing rangers from the National Park Service. None of these guys--none--would choose wool underwear over synthetic. If wool was better, expedition leaders would most certainly recommend it for clients for whose safety, and to some degree comfort, they are responsible. But they don't, and for good reason: Synthetic is better. It really is as simple as that. If you'd like additional gear lists compiled by other professional mountain guides, I can provide as many as you like.

I'm not suggesting that wool is an outdated fabric for many applications, but it is in every way inferior to synthetics when it comes to underwear for cold conditions. That's not my opinion, it's a fact, and to say that you don't know what you're getting when you wear synthetic is, no offense, nonsense, given that synthetic underwear that outperforms wool has been around for more than three decades. Sure, wool has been around for thousands of years, but would you commute in a chariot just because Romans used them?

Folks are, of course, entitled to opinions, but the all-natural-fibers-no-matter-what ethos can, and sometimes is, taken to silly extremes. I recall a thread from long ago where folks were, with all seriousness, insisting that Barbour was preferable to Gore-Tex whilst backpacking. Anyone who has worn both and has also hiked the full Wonderland Trail, as I have, knows the folly of that, yet the traditionalists insist: Give me waxed cotton or give me death!

Final point. I hike and do moderate climbing, at least I once did while living near mountains, in a pair of old-school Raichle leather mountaineering boots, crampon-compatible. They weigh a ton. The last time I wore them was on a 2005 trip to Camp Schurman, which is a camp at 9,500 feet on the Emmons Glacier on Mount Rainier, where I met some friends, including a few climbing rangers. Without exception, everyone else was in synthetic footwear, lightweight hiking boots for the walk down the mountain and plastic mountaineering boots for the trip up. The reason was simple: The boots everyone else wore were lighter than mine and performed better. The same principles apply to cold-weather underwear.



fiddler said:


> You haven't really proved anything apart from saying it's recommended on a guided trek, which is hardly an expedition. But I agree my reply was rather brash, I see synthetics has found it's way into a number of expeditions. Here's from Mike Horns Equipment list on his south pole trek in 2008-2009:
> 
> 
> _"- Two layers 100% wool, 1 synthetic outer layer" _
> ...


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

I am conservative, probably reactionary, in all things. In thirty years climbing and skiing in the Rockies, I was slow and reluctant to migrate from wool and leather to modern synthetics. In a sense, it was good to wait while they evolved through preliminary technology, but I can say from experience they are better, at least for me and for every other experienced summit climber and backcountry skier I know.


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

I see you know your stuff a lot better than I originally thought.

The thing is that wool and synthetics function in quite different ways, synthetics does insulate and keeps moisture of your skin, and is probably better if you're very active, like when you're mountain climbing. But synthetics does not have the warmth of wool. Have you ever encountered a mountain rescue team who would use a synthetic blanket?

The usual advice you will hear from experienced Norwegians is to use wool. Lars Monsen, Cecilie Skog and Erling Kagge are all experienced adventurers who advice people to wear wool. You will hear the same from the Norwegian Trekking Association: https://www.turistforeningen.no/english/article.php?ar_id=17652&fo_id=3622

What I meant about the statement that you know what you're getting with wool, is that most underwear from most manufacturers function in the same manner. If you know someone who has tried and tested the different synthetic products, of course you know what you're getting. But there's a lot of marketing hype surrounding these products.

I have been spending some time skiing in the Norwegian mountains, and I spent some time up north when serving in the Air-force, having field exercises in -20*°*C and strong wind. On all occasions I primarily used wool and cotton (synthetic mesh underwear from Aclima was the exception), and can't say I was uncomfortable.

A tightly woven cotton parka also has it's uses, and is often used on polar expeditions today. Gore-tex get's a layer of frost as soon as it gets around -30 degrees celsius. I prefer cotton when skiing when it's dry and very cold, but of course if it's wet I go for synthetics. Horses for courses, and all that.



32rollandrock said:


> Here's a link to a gear list for International Mountain Guides, which guides climbs of Denali, Mount Rainier and several other peaks:
> 
> https://www.mountainguides.com/denali-gear.shtml
> 
> ...


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

cecil47 said:


> Seriously Jovan, we may be a mile high but we're pretty far south, and in the high desert. You're talking 2-3 snowfalls per year average. It gets cold a few weeks each year, but not bitterly cold for very long. Yesterday, it was a blazer and khakis to work, today a corduroy SC. Before Christmas it was colder and I wore an insulated tweed LLB SC or a barn jacket with a sweater. I live in shorts 7-8 months a year, but summers are not Africa hot, either. Disregard anyone from back east who tells you it's 105-110 in the summer. Over 100 a few times a year, sometimes not at all. It is dry, really dry...


A blast of common sense. Folks are talking as if the OP is moving to The Yukon.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I got a couple of crew neck sweaters, one lambswool, the other Shetland, on eBay.

Thanks for the help, everyone. I think just about everything that needs to be covered has been, but if you wish to add anything else feel free.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Have to add a vote for silk long johns: surprisingly warm outside, without getting too hot and clammy inside. Comfy too as they slide and don't bunch up


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Yeah, I'm definitely getting a pair. I'd only go for wool if I were doing some serious hiking in the cold.


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## arnaudr (Oct 30, 2011)

When I had moved to NY a decade ago, faced a similar dilemma.
My low-cost solution was to buy a few thermal innerwear sets: in wool-silk blend, wool and cotton.
Depending on the day's temperature, would choose among those and wear them with the normal "warm winter" clothing.

They served me well, except for the "How do u keep warm in just that" look. Gradually stocked up normal winter clothing.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Merely on style, not practicality. A ranch-bred guy at the Lucchesse store in San Anton once told me what men in his family wore every day. I call it cowboy trad. Brooks Brothers OCBD, Levi's 501, cowboy boots and hat and belt, nothing flashy. I was able to confirm this style among Texans, both Mexican and Anglo. Nice look, really. There are niceties, however. Teaching at a Northeastern traditionally men's college with a preppy student body, I noticed young men from the Southwest ditched the boots and hats, but wore their Levi's sharply creased and pressed, no belt. BB OCBD to be sure.


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## my19 (Nov 11, 2009)

Patagonia has its capilene base layers on sale through today. Those I glanced at were 50 percent off. But the sale ends on 1/9/12.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Forget wool, buy capilene. It really, truly is the best stuff out there, and at less than $25 per piece, this is a great deal. Of course, you can spend twice as much for merino during this sale, but it won't perform as well (see above entries) and no one's gonna see your underwear, anyway. Use the savings to buy a tie or something else nice.



my19 said:


> Patagonia has its capilene base layers on sale through today. Those I glanced at were 50 percent off. But the sale ends on 1/9/12.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

efdll said:


> Merely on style, not practicality. A ranch-bred guy at the Lucchesse store in San Anton once told me what men in his family wore every day. I call it cowboy trad. Brooks Brothers OCBD, Levi's 501, cowboy boots and hat and belt, nothing flashy. I was able to confirm this style among Texans, both Mexican and Anglo. Nice look, really. There are niceties, however. Teaching at a Northeastern traditionally men's college with a preppy student body, I noticed young men from the Southwest ditched the boots and hats, but wore their Levi's sharply creased and pressed, no belt. BB OCBD to be sure.


Not gonna happen with me, sorry.


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