# Astor & Black



## GWM 1978 (Dec 20, 2008)

Greetings All:

Does anyone know anything about the quality of Astor and Black? They have some very attractive packages, but at the prices they offer, I would be surprised if they are making bespoke pieces. Please let us know.

Thank you


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

I know nothing about them, except they have some employees on this forum who will plug them at every chance they can.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

One member has pictures of himself wearing shirts, but I haven't seen any pictures of any suits.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

I am curious about this too. I looked at the website today and it seems to say all of the right things. However, I just can't figure out how they could make suits like they say, with good fabrics, starting at $600 or less. It is a little scant on information. I don't see any way to browse fabrics, styles, or even a gallery of past pieces. 

I'd almost pull the trigger just because of the price, but my bullshot detector just won't let me. Any objective opinions out there on Astor & Black?


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Search for posts by mysharona in 'What are you wearing today?'


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## DorianGrey (Jul 6, 2007)

Astor and Black is a company founded in Columbus OH by David Schottenstein - one of the young Schottenstein heirs (Value City, Schottensteins, etc). There was a write up in one of the local papers some time ago. I do no know the quality. I know they have been getting a lot of professional sports players in Ohio to wear their suits. The clothes are made in Hong Kong. The one thing that I thought was weird was how the founder chose the name. He said the name was chosen because it "sounded English" or something. There is no Mr. Astor or Mr. Black. Not that it matters I guess, people choose business names as a result of a variety of reasons. But I just thought his reason was cheesy.

Here is the article from the Columbus Dispatch:


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

DorianGrey said:


> Astor and Black is a company founded in Columbus OH by David Schottenstein - one of the young Schottenstein heirs (Value City, Schottensteins, etc). There was a write up in one of the local papers some time ago. I do no know the quality. I know they have been getting a lot of professional sports players in Ohio to wear their suits. The clothes are made in Hong Kong. The one thing that I thought was weird was how the founder chose the name. He said the name was chosen because it "sounded English" or something. There is no Mr. Astor or Mr. Black. Not that it matters I guess, people choose business names as a result of a variety of reasons. But I just thought his reason was cheesy.
> 
> Here is the article from the Columbus Dispatch:


People make up names for companies all the time. Jos. A. Bank was started by a Jewish man in the south, and named it that so it didn't sound "Jewish."


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

brokencycle said:


> People make up names for companies all the time. Jos. A. Bank was started by a Jewish man in the south, and named it that so it didn't sound "Jewish."


Agreed. Astor and Black _is_ an Anglican sounding name. Certainly more so than Schottenstein! Think Gieves & Hawkes, Anderson & Sheppard, Henry Poole. The website talks about handwork and details like the surgeons cuffs, while of course glossing over the location of the tailors and such.

How many fittings do they do? Is a unique pattern made for me or is it really more MTM than bespoke?


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## omanae (Aug 19, 2008)

I am also curious about the fabric selection, do the fabrics come from the newest bunches from Scabal etc in their "official" books, or just on a swatch card that says astor and black, but may come with a 20 yr. old looking Scabal/zegna label in the jacket. They may be buying end lots/faking fabrics to save costs.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

flatline said:


> Agreed. Astor and Black _is_ an Anglican sounding name. Certainly more so than Schottenstein! Think Gieves & Hawkes, Anderson & Sheppard, Henry Poole. The website talks about handwork and details like the surgeons cuffs, while of course glossing over the location of the tailors and such.
> 
> How many fittings do they do? Is a unique pattern made for me or is it really more MTM than bespoke?


English perhaps but why necessarily Anglican?


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

JibranK said:


> English perhaps but why necessarily Anglican?


Sorry, I just meant English. I think my brain was saying Anglo and I typed "Anglican". _Mea culpa._


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## Feisfrum (Jul 28, 2005)

I have purchased two suits from Astor and Black, both for $600 a piece the (Canali Fabric option). I am not an employee of the company; however, I personally know one of salesmen.
The suits themselves are my best fitting suits by far, and I tend to favor them over the other options in my ever expanding closet. I have gotten lots of compliments on them and for the price I do think it’s well worth the deal. Though I do recommend them and will probably sometime in the future use them again, you should be mindful of a couple of things. 1. This goes for all custom clothing, it’s very hard to picture a suit from a little fabric swatch, so one must be careful with that. 2 My first suit I wasn’t initially happy with the tailoring done on it, it seemed that inside jacket pockets had no button closure and the lining wasn’t sewn on very well, there were some loose threads on and around the sleeves. Also, as I do pay attention to detail, I noticed my name which is sewn onto the inside of the suit was a little crooked. Most of these issues were easily adjusted by my local tailor, and I seem to remember being credited the total cost of the aforementioned adjustments on my second suit which was more sturdily put together. Both suit wear very nicely and are probably favorite suits in my closet of CK and Jones NY suits.

They do use horn buttons; they are fully canvassed, whether they are made by machine or hand I wouldn’t be able to tell. I can’t say that these are better or of the same quality then a Canali or Zenga suit but I do feel they are a nice cheaper alternative to them.

Hope this helps,


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

Feisfrum said:


> I have purchased two suits from Astor and Black, both for $600 a piece the (Canali Fabric option). I am not an employee of the company; however, I personally know one of salesmen.
> 
> They do use horn buttons; they are fully canvassed, whether they are made by machine or hand I wouldn't be able to tell. I can't say that these are better or of the same quality then a Canali or Zenga suit but I do feel they are a nice cheaper alternative to them.
> 
> Hope this helps,


What about the purchasing/fitting experience? How did you pick out the fabrics? What was the selection like, did they have books or leftover swatches? How many fittings were there? Were you able to specify everything, like widths of lapels and such, or were they made from preexisting patterns? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## Feisfrum (Jul 28, 2005)

flatline said:


> What about the purchasing/fitting experience? How did you pick out the fabrics? What was the selection like, did they have books or leftover swatches? How many fittings were there? Were you able to specify everything, like widths of lapels and such, or were they made from preexisting patterns? Inquiring minds want to know.


The salesman came over to my apt. in NYC and measured everything, the jacket fits perfectly, the pants are a little baggier then i would have liked, but still pretty accurate. He came over with a bunch of swatch books ( the selection was pretty extensive, lots of choices patterns, etc.) and explained the various options that would be available to me. There was one fitting, I asked him to come over again for a second one, he did, but it was a long time after i had gotten my suit, and I think the consensus was that they would pay for these alterations by crediting whatever it was (from local tailor) on my next order. Regarding fit and other aesthetics, you can specify what you'd like.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

Feisfrum said:


> The salesman came over to my apt. in NYC and measured everything, the jacket fits perfectly, the pants are a little baggier then i would have liked, but still pretty accurate. He came over with a bunch of swatch books ( the selection was pretty extensive, lots of choices patterns, etc.) and explained the various options that would be available to me. There was one fitting, I asked him to come over again for a second one, he did, but it was a long time after i had gotten my suit, and I think the consensus was that they would pay for these alterations by crediting whatever it was (from local tailor) on my next order. Regarding fit and other aesthetics, you can specify what you'd like.


I take it by "one fitting" you actually mean a measurement. It doesn't sound like they did any fittings while the suit was under construction, as one would expect of a bespoke garment. Definitely MTM, although the fact that he had actual books of fabrics is some consolation. I'm considering having a very basic A&B suit made and trying to document the whole process. Probably not in the near future, but who knows.


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## omanae (Aug 19, 2008)

Feisfrum said:


> I have purchased two suits from Astor and Black, both for $600 a piece the (Canali Fabric option).


I was not aware that Canali had a mill? Were the books the salesman brought over for dormeuil fabrics green and the Scabal ones a blue faux ostrich leg?


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

*Misplaced Heritage*

Just small point for historical and ethnic accuracy. Evidently the
ignoramuses who started the firm didn't check into the "Englishness"
of one of their fictional names. "Astor", named after John Jacob Astor, the
first American tycoon, was born in the town of Waldorf in Germany.
Get it: Waldorf-Astoria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jacob_Astor


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

JibranK said:


> Search for posts by mysharona in 'What are you wearing today?'


I was waiting for that! While I am not an employee, I was very pleased with the value of my shirts and suit and plug A&B when an opportunity arises. I think the translation of the measurements to the finished product have a good bit to do with the skill of the A&B rep. My suit was returned to me after 2 fittings: an initial measurement, and then another set of measurements 2-3 weeks later to make sure nothing needed to be changed prior to completion. The process is more MTM, although an existing suit is not being altered to your measurements: the suit is made precisely based on customer's specifications regarding cut, fabric, lapel style, vent location, lining, etc. More semi-bespoke, I guess. The fabrics are lovely as is the selection of fabric mills. From my experience with Brioni garments, the fabric A&B labels Scabal is genuinely Scabal. A minor alteration was needed on my jacket, and since we use the same tailor, I dropped off my jacket and my rep picked it up, paid for the alteration and brought the jacket to me at my business the day the adjustment was complete.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

As it so happens, I am a Columbus-area dweller. I was exposed to "Astor and Black" at the Bentley Continental GT "Speed" preview. I mention them briefly in my review of the event, although not by name:

https://www.speedsportlife.com/2007...e-candy-help-to-pimp-a-very-polished-phaeton/

It's overseas tailoring, supposedly Hong Kong but also possibly China.

I'd advocate you skip their products solely on the basis of inauthenticity. Astor and Black are imaginary, and the whole concept is kind of humiliating. It's also hilariously reminiscent of the Simpsons' "Flaming Moe" episode:

"I work for Tipsy McStagger's good time drinking and eating emporium."

"Oh, yeah? Hey, what's Mr. McStagger really like?"

"Tipsy McStagger is just a composite of other successful logos."

"You tell him for me that he makes one great mozzarella stick."

"(Pause) Yes, I will."


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> As it so happens, I am a Columbus-area dweller. I was exposed to "Astor and Black" at the Bentley Continental GT "Speed" preview. I mention them briefly in my review of the event, although not by name:
> 
> https://www.speedsportlife.com/2007...e-candy-help-to-pimp-a-very-polished-phaeton/
> 
> ...


How are they inauthentic?


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## RipRoar (Jan 8, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> I'd advocate you skip their products solely on the basis of inauthenticity. Astor and Black are imaginary, and the whole concept is kind of humiliating.


That's a bit ridiculous, isn't it? The whole point is the quality of the clothes, and the value ratio of price to quality. Granted, it seems a bit tacky, but so what?


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

RipRoar said:


> That's a bit ridiculous, isn't it? The whole point is the quality of the clothes, and the value ratio of price to quality. Granted, it seems a bit tacky, but so what?


I believe you've answered your own question there; it's *tacky*.

The whole idea behind "Astor & Black" is that you, the would-be purchaser, are so new to this game (presumably because your parents were Not Our Kind, Dear) that you would be taken in by an imaginary pair of quasi-Anglo-Saxon tailors. Like the creations of our dear Mr. Lipshitz, this is WASP America viewed through a parodical Jewish lens. Somebody's sitting over at the New Albany Country Club having a massive laugh about all this right now.

It's precisely the sort of thing ridiculed by John LeCarre when he wrote about "Pendel & Braithwaite".

If you simply want a decent $600 suit, skip the pretension and buy a Brooks 1818, which is on sale this month for $598. Very few people are so hard to fit that they cannot wear one of the Brooks 1818 models.

"Astor & Black". Just saying it makes me chuckle. It's another luxury brand for people who are new to the idea of luxury, and just like those others (*cough* Lexus *cough* Breitling) they lay on the pretense with a trowel.

And if it's _really_ all about the quality of the clothes, then a Hart Schaffner & Marx Golden Trumpeter probably whips _all_ their asses.

Astor & Black! I'm sorry, I have to chuckle again. And by "chuckle" I mean "laugh".


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## RipRoar (Jan 8, 2008)

^^Actually, I agree with much of your point, and quite appreciate the _Tailor in Panama_ reference, but the tackiness of the naming convention isn't enough for me to completely disregard what might be a screaming value on a MTM/bespoke suit. In a way, our different views are based on the same premise - I don't give a rip about the last name of the tailor, just the quality of his work and the price paid for it.

The $600 BB suit is fine, and the HSM Gold even better, but buying those off the rack is a very different proposition than the one offered by A&B at a similar or lower price point. You're right, the name and marketing take cunning, even devious, aim at the "aspiring to luxury" customer, but I am neither easily deceived nor offended. In short, I also wish the pretense and intentionally deceptive marketing weren't there, but I am not put off enough with the bathwater to throw out the baby. To each his own, though.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

RipRoar said:


> ^^Actually, I agree with much of your point, and quite appreciate the _Tailor in Panama_ reference, but the tackiness of the naming convention isn't enough for me to completely disregard what might be a screaming value on a MTM/bespoke suit. In a way, our different views are based on the same premise - I don't give a rip about the last name of the tailor, just the quality of his work and the price paid for it.
> 
> The $600 BB suit is fine, and the HSM Gold even better, but buying those off the rack is a very different proposition than the one offered by A&B at a similar or lower price point. You're right, the name and marketing take cunning, even devious, aim at the "aspiring to luxury" customer, but I am neither easily deceived nor offended. In short, I also wish the pretense and intentionally deceptive marketing weren't there, but I am not put off enough with the bathwater to throw out the baby. To each his own, though.


I second that. I own a Brooks Bros suit. I own a Brioni suit. I own some Roy Robsons MTM in West Germany. And I own an Astor & Black suit. I know the name is a name only and is not based on real folks. The suit is well made, and I enjoy it. I like custom clothing better than off the rack. Period.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

mysharona said:


> I second that. I own a Brooks Bros suit. I own a Brioni suit. I own some Roy Robsons MTM in West Germany. And I own an Astor & Black suit. I know the name is a name only and is not based on real folks. The suit is well made, and I enjoy it. I like custom clothing better than off the rack. Period.


Thanks for that post, mysha.

I would rather read about people with the purchase and experience than some arbitrarily snobby, off-the-cuff opinion from someone who hasn't purchased or worn such a suit.

Astor & Black has been on my mind as a possible purchase, but it is difficult to find examples of their work or decent critique.


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## omanae (Aug 19, 2008)

To me it seems that if you can get a suit, made from quality fabrics that's fully canvassed for a decent price the name, whether it be made up or not, should not matter too much. I'm sure if we look at the rest of our culture there are plenty of instances of fake names to sell goods, I have not done the research on this, but who knows if there was a real Betty crocker, Sara lee, or more to the point for those who do enjoy their snobbery Ralph Lauren, who changed his name to a more anglicized version from something like Lipschitz I believe, because he didn't think the Jewish name would sell. So I guess polo, purple label, black label, etc. all make you laugh, especially since the suiting is made by another company entirely, an italian one, not jewish or american or british.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

Preu Pummel said:


> Thanks for that post, mysha.
> 
> I would rather read about people with the purchase and experience than some arbitrarily snobby, off-the-cuff opinion from someone who hasn't purchased or worn such a suit.
> 
> Astor & Black has been on my mind as a possible purchase, but it is difficult to find examples of their work or decent critique.


The suits pictured on their website are an accurate representation of their products.


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## omanae (Aug 19, 2008)

I still wonder if you see the actual swatch books produced by major manufacturers or not when consulting with astor and black, and also I see on the site an advertisement for versace fabrics, I was not aware versace had a mill. This leads me to wonder more about the legitimacy of the fabrics.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

omanae said:


> I still wonder if you see the actual swatch books produced by major manufacturers or not when consulting with astor and black, and also I see on the site an advertisement for versace fabrics, I was not aware versace had a mill. This leads me to wonder more about the legitimacy of the fabrics.


I see this come up a lot. It is my understanding that certain fabric mills, which produce the fabrics for marques like Gucci or Jil Sander, make some of that same fabric run available to the public, using the designer's name as a selling point.



> All our stock is imported from only Italy and France, as we believe these sources are superior in their manufacture of the finest quality fabric. We purchase from the most reputable manufacturers who create for the top European designer fashion houses - such as Gucci, Armani, Versace, Balenciaga, Prada, Dolce Gabbana, Jil Sander, Roberto Cavalli, Escada, Valentino and Chanel&#8230; d'Italia's stock includes these labels regularly.


I'm not a textile expert by any stretch, but I think this is where the argument comes from. On the one hand, it is true that the fabric is not made by the design house, but on the other hand it IS identical to the fabrics used in 'official' Armani suits, for example.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

I quizzically look at this NAME discussion. The name was never an issue, as if it perhaps is to some? A name is a name, I want to know about the product. Like, I suppose Jockey is a shameful brand because it was never made by or for small horse racing men?



mysharona said:


> The suits pictured on their website are an accurate representation of their products.


Oh, good. I wasn't sure if they just took pictures from some stock book.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

Preu Pummel said:


> I quizzically look at this NAME discussion. The name was never an issue, as if it perhaps is to some? A name is a name, I want to know about the product. Like, I suppose Jockey is a shameful brand because it was never made by or for small horse racing men?
> 
> Oh, good. I wasn't sure if they just took pictures from some stock book.


The last picture in the website's slide presentation (the one that remains on the page after the slides are done) of the fella wearing the turquoise PS is exactly what the cut of my suit looks like. I was actually quite close to choosing the exact same fabric. That is a Bruno McKenzie fabric, if I'm not mistaken.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

I actually tried to buy an A&B suit around 2 years ago. They had reps in around a dozen cities at that time, I was in DC for a couple of days and tried to schedule an appointment to be measured and pick a fabric but couldn't make a connection. Pity, since I understand many of their "measurers" are attractive young women.
I finally saw Ravi (ravistailor.com) a Thai tailor on one of his trips to the USA and got two SB--one with PL--fully lined with working buttonholes, Bemberg lining, etc for around the cost of 1 A&B. My wife says they are my best fitting coats. 
Other members have stressed the importance of being measured by someone who has the experience and judgement in MTM, particularly if you won't have a series of fittings. I suspect your level of satisfaction with A&B would depend on the experience of the rep doing the measuring regardless of the quality of the fabric or how well turned her ankle is.


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## superbikepics (Feb 11, 2007)

*I have six A&B suits...*

One mohair, four from the "basic" package, and one Scabal suiting fabric. I was able to specify preferences on all the popular options - side vents, number and placement of interior pockets (I'm left-handed, so change some things up), button placement, lining color, side tabs (vs. belt loops), etc.

The suits are great workaday suits. They are MTM. I didn't have any fittings. The saleperson took my measurements, photos (she noticed my severe right drop and forward "stoop") for the tailors back in Hong Kong. Once she had meansured me _in_ my best-fitting suit, she did the same with the suit flat on the table. When the suits came in, there was some tightness in the chest and the waist was a little snug. My "best-fitting" suit still fit the same, so I think the measurements were a little "aggressive". The suits are slimmer fitting, so I figure that's what she was going for. No matter - she marked them up, took them for local tailoring, and then hand-delivered them to me from her New York City location to my office in Hartford, Connecticut.

I cannot recommend their shirts, on account the cuffs and collars are just plain stiff. I wear them anyway, but the collar is, well, stiff. I notice it when I wear them buttoned up with a tie.

I'm just a customer. I love the suits. I have four bespoke suits. These are not "better" than those, but I paid dearly for the bespoke as well. So did not expect them to be. At an average $600/suit for the A&B, I am happy with what I ended up with. Finally, the fabric selections are seemingly endless. I had trouble getting down to six selections.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Ryan Schlagheck


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

Preu Pummel said:


> I quizzically look at this NAME discussion. The name was never an issue, as if it perhaps is to some? A name is a name, I want to know about the product. Like, I suppose Jockey is a shameful brand because it was never made by or for small horse racing men?


Okay, here's the deal on the product:

It's overseas tailoring, but instead of dealing with Ricky/Jantzen or Ravi, you're dealing with an American employee. The fabrics are what they are and I recommend you pick up a swatch and look at it with your own eyes, as I've done.

This Jockey business is disingenuous. The purpose of the name "Astor & Black" is simple: to confuse the issue of who makes the clothes and where. That is enough for me to disapprove of the whole enterprise. It would be better, and honest, to call it "Schottenstein Clothiers", but this would probably limit their Ohio audience, who are rather frighteningly familiar with M/I Schottenstein homes, "Showcase" Schottenstein homes, the "Schottenstein's" remainder shops, the "Schottenstein Value City" discount furniture stores (which use the unintentionally insulting slogan "You just can't do any better") and the "Schott", Ohio State's basketball arena.

I can understand preferring custom tailoring of any quality to off-the-rack, but that's not my personal preference. I'd rather have an American-made Hickey or HSM suit for that price, knowing that I'm helping provide employment for fellow Americans earning a living wage.

My opinion, and it has less to do with "snobbery" than with plain old Midwestern horse sense, is that if you're only willing to spend $600 on a "custom suit" -- well, perhaps you're better-off avoiding "custom suits".

From time to time, Filene's will have Oxxford suits available for $800 or thereabouts, and I don't think anybody on this forum can tell me with a straight face that an "Astor & Black" is anything comparable to Oxxford.

Sorry for ruffling feathers, but the thread asked for opinions on A&B, and here's an opinion: Don't bother.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> This Jockey business is disingenuous. The purpose of the name "Astor & Black" is simple: to confuse the issue of who makes the clothes and where.


Fatuous. First, the Jockey business was genuine and you never answered it. It disproves the rest of the argument, but call it what you want. Astor & Black has NEVER been confusing, because if you read the press they NEVER hid the fact of where they made the clothes. All the press has been very, very open and bold about how they make the clothes and where. If someone is blindly throwing money at a name they are rather less than informed. A name is a name. Maybe in clothing it means something, but a name never guarantees a product, so in this case I would rather hear about PRODUCT and not conjecture or baseless opinion wrapped around a moniker alone.



> My opinion, and it has less to do with "snobbery" than with plain old Midwestern horse sense, is that if you're only willing to spend $600 on a "custom suit" -- well, perhaps you're better-off avoiding "custom suits".


Really? Sounds like you claim to be "down to earth" and then a terrible snob at the same time. Awful. "Better off"? So you are saying it doesn't matter what the product is, if a person doesn't meet your standards they should dress how you deem. That's some keen "midwest horse sense" there.... not at all snobbish elitism. No.



> Sorry for ruffling feathers, but the thread asked for opinions on A&B, and here's an opinion: Don't bother.


Strong opinion based on opinion. 
Again, it would be good to hear from people who actually PURCHASED and WEAR the product or know people who did so. Sure, it's your opinion, but it's snobbery.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

Preu Pummel said:


> Fatuous. First, the Jockey business was genuine and you never answered it. It disproves the rest of the argument, but call it what you want.


I don't think you're really that stupid. If you're playing games, there's no reason to discuss it further. If you really _are_ that stupid, I have no time for you.

"Jockey" is a profession. "Astor" is a surname, one associated with wealth and prestige in the American consciousness. "Black"... I have no idea. Naming a clothing company whether neither an "Astor" nor a "Black" is involved "Astor & Black" is indefensible. No reasonable person would argue to the contrary, and very few people would have the _chutzpah_ to start a company with such a fraudulent face.

If Schottenstein believed in his product, he'd put his own name on it. The fact that he is unwilling to be associated with it speaks volumes.

Are you done, or do I have to educate you further on things your parents should have taught you?


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> I can understand preferring custom tailoring of any quality to off-the-rack, but that's not my personal preference. I'd rather have an American-made Hickey or HSM suit for that price, knowing that I'm helping provide employment for fellow Americans earning a living wage.


So tell me exactly how you're helping Americans earn a living wage by buying Hickey Freeman suits at $600 or less or an Oxxford at $800. Hickey Freeman retail at ~$1500 for a suit ($1395 to $1895 on their website which doesn't include the Presidential Line). By my calculations, if you have say 30 manhours making a suit (which I think may be a bit low for an Oxxford but whatever) and you're paying their tailors $20/hr (we'll ignore the higher pay for the supervisors and master tailors), that is $600 in labor alone. With overhead and materials to make the suit you're probably buying the suit at less than cost. Last I checked, companies are in business to make money (which they can't do if people are buying their product at/less than cost). Same goes for a Hickey Freeman.

So stop the nonsense that you're somehow helping Americans stay employeed with a "living wage" when you're buying suits at off prices.

I'm all for buying American, but I don't go around pretending to be helping people because I buy American made stuff at Asian made stuff. You can't have it both ways.



FlatSix said:


> If Schottenstein believed in his product, he'd put his own name on it. The fact that he is unwilling to be associated with it speaks volumes.


Yes. You're right Jews have never named a company they started with something that sounds less Jewish... oh wait, they do all the time.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> I don't think you're really that stupid. If you're playing games, there's no reason to discuss it further. If you really _are_ that stupid, I have no time for you.
> 
> "Jockey" is a profession. "Astor" is a surname, one associated with wealth and prestige in the American consciousness. "Black"... I have no idea. Naming a clothing company whether neither an "Astor" nor a "Black" is involved "Astor & Black" is indefensible. No reasonable person would argue to the contrary, and very few people would have the _chutzpah_ to start a company with such a fraudulent face.


Your degradation into abuse just pinpoints who you are as a person.

The fact is that a name is a title, and little more. "Jockey is a profession," is as twisted as you can get in an argument. It never declares any such thing, and merely provides a name--that was my point. Your argument has no ground. If you read the press on A&B you will have NO doubt as to where and how the clothes are made. Schottenstein makes no pretense; his website even has the title below the screen declaring "A Schottenstein Company".

Or were you perhaps sucked into an assumption, and now you are angry about it?

There's some strange aggressive energy coming from you which makes me wonder if you are stable enough to understand any other point of view aside from your own. As I said before, and I am sure I speak for all the lurkers in the thread, I want to hear about PRODUCT, not wild-eyed, angry, snobbish opinion.


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## omanae (Aug 19, 2008)

Just as an aside, and I don't know this for a fact, but what is the name of the man who started Oxxford. Our angry friend has touted that Oxxford is great and Astor and Black isn't because of a "disingenious" name. However, Oxxford is an American company, which vary well have been started by a man named other than Oxxford, who chose a name that represents a strong association to an upstanding BRITISH university. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like it's the same, or even worse, in regards to hiding who started the company and who works there. Also, see above where Ralph Lauren changed his name, again the same thing, it happens all the time, but apparently if you retail a suit at over $2000 it's ok and if it's under $1000 is lying, this sounds like snobbery to the highest degree.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

Preu Pummel said:


> Your degradation into abuse just pinpoints who you are as a person.


Precisely. I am someone who finds it inexplicable that the difference between "Jockey" and "Astor & Black" is not plain as day.



> Your argument has no ground. If you read the press on A&B you will have NO doubt as to where and how the clothes are made. Schottenstein makes no pretense; his website even has the title below the screen declaring "A Schottenstein Company".


The difference between you and me is that I have been present at an "upscale event" where the product was being sold.



> As I said before, and I am sure I speak for all the lurkers in the thread, I want to hear about PRODUCT, not wild-eyed, angry, snobbish opinion.


I am equally sure you do not "speak for all the lurkers in the thread". What a ridiculous statement. We're here to discuss clothing and style. Heritage and authenticity are a tremendous part of that. I wear Armani partly because my father did, and I wear Brooks partly because my grandfather did. I have no patience for fakery or pretense. If this is too complex a concept for you to understand, why continue the discussion?


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

omanae said:


> Just as an aside, and I don't know this for a fact, but what is the name of the man who started Oxxford. Our angry friend has touted that Oxxford is great and Astor and Black isn't because of a "disingenious" name. However, Oxxford is an American company, which vary well have been started by a man named other than Oxxford, who chose a name that represents a strong association to an upstanding BRITISH university. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like it's the same, or even worse, in regards to hiding who started the company and who works there. Also, see above where Ralph Lauren changed his name, again the same thing, it happens all the time, but apparently if you retail a suit at over $2000 it's ok and if it's under $1000 is lying, this sounds like snobbery to the highest degree.


Check out the wikipedia entry for Oxxford. I'm rolling on the floor right now...


> *Oxxford Clothes* is a high-end suit manufacturer based in Chicago, Illinois. The company was founded in 1916 by Jacob and Louis Weinberg.


Kind of takes the air out of that particular argument once and for all, no? Seems rather impossible (and more than a little hypocritical) to support Oxxford seeing as it was started by Jews who wanted their suiting company to sound English.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

I guess they wanted to "sound English" HAHAHAHA!


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

omanae said:


> Just as an aside, and I don't know this for a fact, but what is the name of the man who started Oxxford.


This information is available on this very site.



> Our angry friend has touted that Oxxford is great and Astor and Black isn't because of a "disingenious" name.


That's *disingenuous*. If you don't understand the word or it's meaning, don't argue against it.



> However, Oxxford is an American company, which vary well have been started by a man named other than Oxxford, who chose a name that represents a strong association to an upstanding BRITISH university. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like it's the same, or even worse, in regards to hiding who started the company and who works there.


You are wrong. You have been corrected. The people who started the "Ocean Pacific" company probably did not live under the sea, but had they named it "Rockefeller & Blair", that would have been fraudulent.



> Also, see above where Ralph Lauren changed his name, again the same thing, it happens all the time,


And every time it happens, it is rightfully ridiculed. Surely we all know that "Ralph Lauren Polo" is simply an imitation of Brooks, launched at a time when Brooks didn't feel like competing head-to-head in the cheap-fashion market.

And for the record, the men who started Oxxford were Jewish as well. They kept their own names and they presumably added the extra "x" because they did not want to confuse people, only to refer to an idea.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> The difference between you and me is that I have been present at an "upscale event" where the product was being sold.


I've been to an "upscale event" where cocaine was being sold, so therefore anybody who is looking for some, I must know where it is and how to determine the quality!


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> That's *disingenuous*. If you don't understand the word or it's meaning, don't argue against it.


Wow. Someone typed one letter incorrectly and you call them ignorant. You already referred to another poster as "stupid". Judging from your abusive tone toward posters on this site, and your rather self-impressed looking pose portrayed in your avatar, I'll wager you'd have no trouble defining the word "pompous". Or exemplifying it for that matter. If I mispelled anything, forgive me. That being said, I'm sure that you'll kindly correct me. Now, perhaps you could do all of us a service and cease to bastardize this thread with the aforementioned pomposity that spews from your postings.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> The difference between you and me is that I have been present at an "upscale event" where the product was being sold.


Define upscale event. How does being at an upscale event change what is being sold?

So when you're at an art auction, for instance, and world famous art pieces are being sold for millions of dollars a piece, and then there are some lesser know pieces that aren't as valuable being sold side by side, that makes them a lie too?


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> Define upscale event. How does being at an upscale event change what is being sold?


It shouldn't, should it? Surely we all agree on this. However, at this particular event, the products of Astor & Black were sold in a manner to heavily downplay their ownership and origin. It took ten minutes of direct questioning on my part before the phrase "Hong Kong" was spoken.

I'm not necessarily one to tilt against a windmill; nor would I want to limit anyone else's freedom of choice. If somebody reads this thread and wants to buy A&B, I'm not going to drive to their apartment and try to stop them.

Still, it should be made plainly obvious so that everyone has the information: A&B is a fake. The purpose of the name is to hide the Hong Kong connection. The men who own the company neither do the tailoring nor put their names on the front door. I wouldn't personally do business with a company of this nature.

Arguing over the quality and delivery of this faux-company is exactly like arguing over the quality and delivery of fake Rolexes or eBay knockoff Lacoste. If that's "your thing", go to it; my blessing or lack thereof surely does not matter.

As for the fellow who argued that buying a $600 Hickey doesn't help American workers: which helps American workers more, buying a closeout Hickey or sending the money to Hong Kong? You are letting the best be the enemy of the good.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

Unless I see more messages discussing the actual clothing/service provided by Astor&Black, I am bowing out of this discussion.

Here are my considerations when buying clothing:
1)Price - that's just how it is. I'm not going to bankrupt myself just to look good
2)Quality - This encompasses 3 things. Quality of fit, quality of service, and quality of the clothing itself. The clothing needs to fit relative to its price point and not fall apart after one wearing.

Things I don't consider include label/name and where it is sold.

Where it is made is a consideration for me, but not a major one. Maybe I am a bleeding heart, but I try to avoid things made in China due to their deplorable working conditions and environmental atrocities, just as I would not buy a conflict diamond. If Astor & Black can be proved to manufacture in mainland China, that's certainly something that would disqualify them in my eyes.

If anyone has constructive things to say about Astor & Black's clothing, their staff, or anything of that nature, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I'm done with this thread.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

flatline said:


> Unless I see more messages discussing the actual clothing/service provided by Astor&Black, I am bowing out of this discussion.
> 
> Here are my considerations when buying clothing:
> 1)Price - that's just how it is. I'm not going to bankrupt myself just to look good
> ...


My purchase was because I saw value in the product and received better service from the A&B rep than I have _EVER_ received from a Brooks Brothers salesman. At this point I could call my rep right now and say "Hi, *****, it's ****, I need a couple of shirts from the fabrics we looked at. Yes, I'd like the same collar and cuff styles as before. _I'll pay you when they come in." _My rep's flexibility and professionalism are superb.


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## aikon (Jan 29, 2007)

Flatsix: what is your problem? 

I have A&B suits that fit me fabulously. I receive compliments every single time that I wear them from both men and women. If you are an attractive person, and well built, a well-fitting suit will look good on you. 

Your posts are boring. Also, you live in Ohio. I suggest you come down a few notches.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

aikon said:


> Your posts are boring. Also, you live in Ohio. I suggest you come down a few notches.


You know who else lives in Ohio? The guy who owns A&B. Ha!

(For the record, I was born on Flatbush Ave, but what's the point of living somewhere where you can't drive, can't shoot, and can't own a rolling toolchest?)


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> You know who else lives in Ohio? The guy who owns A&B. Ha!
> 
> (For the record, I was born on Flatbush Ave, but what's the point of living somewhere where you can't drive, can't shoot, and can't own a rolling toolchest?)


Yeah. That was a really bad tool for an argument concerning A&B.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

mysharona said:


> Yeah. That was a really bad tool for an argument concerning A&B.


That's okay; I understand what he means. It's time for the people in flyover country to be quiet in the presence of their betters.

He should hope, however, that his G-5 never has to make an emergency landing in Ohio. When we're not busy growing food for the self-appointed aristocracy of the East Coast, some of us tend to hold a grudge. The good news: the three fellows who will be making him "squeal like a pig" are likely to be wearing _actual_ Canali suits, not "Canali fabric".


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> That's okay; I understand what he means. It's time for the people in flyover country to be quiet in the presence of their betters.
> 
> He should hope, however, that his G-5 never has to make an emergency landing in Ohio. When we're not busy growing food for the self-appointed aristocracy of the East Coast, some of us tend to hold a grudge. The good news: the three fellows who will be making him "squeal like a pig" are likely to be wearing _actual_ Canali suits, not "Canali fabric".


My family is from Cleveland. I am no stranger to Ohio myself. But as an only moderately relevant aside, I don't think A&B claims to use Canali fabric. :icon_peaceplease:


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> It shouldn't, should it? Surely we all agree on this. However, at this particular event, the products of Astor & Black were sold in a manner to heavily downplay their ownership and origin. It took ten minutes of direct questioning on my part before the phrase "Hong Kong" was spoken.
> 
> I'm not necessarily one to tilt against a windmill; nor would I want to limit anyone else's freedom of choice. If somebody reads this thread and wants to buy A&B, I'm not going to drive to their apartment and try to stop them.
> 
> ...


First, A&B doesn't claim to make Brioni, they just buy fabric from the same mills Brioni does. That isn't misleading or fake... so you're making a strawman argument.

Secondly, how does buying a $600 Hickey Freeman help American workers? If everyone was like you, and bought the suits at closeout prices only, they would just close their doors. In fact, *you are not doing anything* for Hickey Freeman or their employees. They would close their doors because they're not selling their suits for *profit*.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> Secondly, how does buying a $600 Hickey Freeman help American workers? If everyone was like you, and bought the suits at closeout prices only,


I don't know if there's anyone out there with enough self-control to buy their suits at "closeout prices only". I admire those people, should they exist.



> they would just close their doors. In fact, *you are not doing anything* for Hickey Freeman or their employees. They would close their doors because they're not selling their suits for *profit*.


Stop me when I say something you already know... but you're surely aware that, in most cases, when a suit is in a store it's already been bought by that store?

So, let's construct two scenarios.

In Scenario 1, a store buys 10 HF suits, sells seven, and puts the ugliest three on closeout. I come in and buy the HF closeout for $600, leaving two.

In Scenario 2, a store buys 10 HF suits, sells seven, and puts the ugliest three on closeout. I choose to buy a suit from Ravi in Hong Kong, so the store still has three suits.

Which scenario permits the store to restock sooner? Which scenario leaves the store more likely to "take a chance" on buying additional Hickey suits? Which scenario offers more support for a store which has chosen to stock Hickey suits?

Furthermore, back in our university days most of us at least took macroeconomics, which is where we learn that the most efficient thing for a business to do is to produce until they can't sell another unit at a reasonable price, or something like that. (I admit, it's been almost two decades since ECO201.)

I agree with you that Oxxford can't keep their business going at $798 a suit. With that said, buying a closeout American-made suit keeps 100% (or close to it) of your money within the country, paying American workers and companies.

When you buy an A&B suit, presumably the breakdown is something like this:

$300 goes to your rep, to the ad campaigns, and to Mr. Schottenstein.
$50 is profit for the Hong Kong tailor
$200 goes to the mills, buttonmakers, et al
$50 is the labor

So only half of the money stays in the country.

I'm very far from unwilling to buy products from Hong Kong. Right now I'm wearing a cashmere Brooks sweater that I'm pretty sure was sewn in Hong Kong. I'm just saying that there _is_ a tangible benefit to our countrymen from buying an HF or Oxxford, even on closeout.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> I don't know if there's anyone out there with enough self-control to buy their suits at "closeout prices only". I admire those people, should they exist.
> 
> Stop me when I say something you already know... but you're surely aware that, in most cases, when a suit is in a store it's already been bought by that store?
> 
> ...


Most of the high end companies use imported fabric. I won 6 Hickey Freeman suits, an Oxxford blazer, and a Hickey Freeman sportcoat. All are made of imported fabric... so let's not keep going with the strawmen.

Maybe you should retake macroeconomics. Also, probably microeconomics seeing microeconomics is typically the one that deals with businesses.

*microeconomics *- the branch of economics dealing with particular aspects of an economy, as the price-cost relationship of a firm.

*macroeconomics *- the branch of economics dealing with the broad and general aspects of an economy, as the relationship between the income and investments of a country as a whole.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

flatline said:


> Agreed. Astor and Black _is_ an Anglican sounding name. Certainly more so than Schottenstein! Think Gieves & Hawkes, Anderson & Sheppard, Henry Poole. The website talks about handwork and details like the surgeons cuffs, while of course glossing over the location of the tailors and such.
> 
> How many fittings do they do? Is a unique pattern made for me or is it really more MTM than bespoke?


Astor is a German surname, just as Schottenstein apparently is.
Black is most common in the lowlands and borders area of Scotland.

I'm sure Black is common South of the Scottish border as well, and there is an English branch of the wealthy American Astors that has been enobled.

Anglican describes a protestant christian denomination, The Church of England, which is not isolated to England, and whose members are of many races and nationalities.

As to the state of custom tailoring in Cleveland OH, I have no idea, but I'm sure there are a few people in Shaker Hts and Gates Mills who could afford bespoke if they wanted to.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

FlatSix said:


> I don't know if there's anyone out there with enough self-control to buy their suits at "closeout prices only". I admire those people, should they exist.
> 
> Stop me when I say something you already know... but you're surely aware that, in most cases, when a suit is in a store it's already been bought by that store?
> 
> ...


As brokencycle said, a macro class wouldn't cover that. It would, however, teach the *mutual benefits of trade* - not protectionism unless your teacher was some sort of socialist.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

JibranK said:


> As brokencycle said, a macro class wouldn't cover that. It would, however, teach the *mutual benefits of trade* - not protectionism unless your teacher was some sort of socialist.


I'm in the middle of writing a protest letter to Hicksville Community College, my _alma mater_, for including that little "production/profit graph" in my macro class. At least they said it was a macro class. Most of the class consisted of teaching us how to load chickens into a stake-bed truck for when we went to market, actually. But while I'm doing that, perhaps you can explain to me the current "mutual benefits of trade" as it relates to our trade deficit with the Far East.

You can also explain to me how preferring to do business, voluntarily, with American businesses, paying a living wage, who buy cloth from European mills, where they also pay a living wage, qualifies as "protectionism". I'm not sure if my teacher was a socialist. He wore what appeared to be a pompadour, combined with _pince-nez_. His name was Mr. Plotsky, or Trosker, or something similar.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> I'm in the middle of writing a protest letter to Hicksville Community College, my _alma mater_, for including that little "production/profit graph" in my macro class. At least they said it was a macro class. Most of the class consisted of teaching us how to load chickens into a stake-bed truck for when we went to market, actually. But while I'm doing that, perhaps you can explain to me the current "mutual benefits of trade" as it relates to our trade deficit with the Far East.
> 
> You can also explain to me how preferring to do business, voluntarily, with American businesses, paying a living wage, who buy cloth from European mills, where they also pay a living wage, qualifies as "protectionism". I'm not sure if my teacher was a socialist. He wore what appeared to be a pompadour, combined with _pince-nez_. His name was Mr. Plotsky, or Trosker, or something similar.


Ok. I'm no longer mad at this guy. His sense of humor is right up my alley.
I'm still going to wear my Astor&Black suit, however.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Feisfrum said:


> I have purchased two suits from Astor and Black, both for $600 a piece the (*Canali Fabric option*). I am not an employee of the company; however, I personally know one of salesmen.


Canali makes fabric?


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## Trojan10 (Nov 27, 2008)

Flatsix:

Preu Pummel spoke at least for *this* lurker in the thread. Your smug posts on this topic are insufferable. This is a forum about looking good in clothes made of quality materials that fit the wearer. Perhaps your obsession with the etymology of names would be better directed toward a forum that may not focus on the aesthetic value of clothes and instead mindlessly engages in urinating contests concerning who can recite the most pronouns in their wardrobe before drawing a breath.


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## omanae (Aug 19, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> This information is available on this very site.
> 
> That's *disingenuous*. If you don't understand the word or it's meaning, don't argue against it.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I mis-typed, however that does not confound the basis of my argument which clearly shows that for you to state that Oxxford or Ralph Lauren, not Ralph Lipschitz, is genuine in name and Astor and Black is not; is either lunacy or snobbery. Whatever your aversion to this company is, of which I will not conjecture, you have succeeded in derailing all of us from the true topic and divulging into, as previously pointed out, a fairly useless pissing match. Back to the original point, do any members other than Mysharona who own Astor and Black have the abillity to post pictures of them in their suits, that would be of great help to the rest of us. Thanks in advance.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

omanae said:


> Sorry, I mis-typed,


Sure you did.



> however that does not confound the basis of my argument which clearly shows that for you to state that Oxxford or Ralph Lauren, not Ralph Lipschitz, is genuine in name and Astor and Black is not; is either lunacy or snobbery.


Well, I offered RL as an example of an _inauthentic_ name. At this point you're arguing with yourself, I think. "Oxxford" I'm inclined to be more patient with, because it is not a misrepresentation. "Oxford University Clothiers" would have been, but "Oxxford Clothiers" is not.

I would also suggest that in 1916, business conditions were vastly different than they were today. A Jewish man who wished to start a business faced discrimination very similar to what a Black tailor would have faced. To obscure the "Jewishness" of it was more understandable in 1916 than 2008. We're not that far away from the days where Jews weren't permitted on the Social Register.

I've spoken my piece regarding the authenticity, or lack thereof, of A&B. For me to drone on further is probably unnecessary. The people who have chosen A&B appear to be pretty happy with their choice. I've also been reminded that people from Ohio shouldn't "put on airs", which is a reminder I occasionally need. From time to time I start to think that I'm better than the other farmers because I line my chicken coops exclusively with shredded first editions of Melville, Hawthorne, Henry Bech* and other authentic American writers. Yes, it's expensive, but it takes a tough book, such as _Typee_, to raise a tender chicken.

* this is intended to provide a meta-level or irony.


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## omanae (Aug 19, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> Sure you did.


Stop being so immature, really. I changed one letter, however used the word perfectly to show how shallow your argument is. This is probably one of the more pathetic attempts I've ever witnessed at someone trying to discredit me, which having presented research at psychological conventions here in Chicago, has been done academically. It would be different had I misused the word, or had I obviously not made a solid argument. I made a case, other's agreed, we are all trying to get back to the original topic, can someone post pertinent pictures of themselves in suits aside from mysharona (Your suits look nice, it's just be nice to see some other examples as well). Thank you


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

omanae said:


> can someone post pertinent pictures of themselves in suits aside from mysharona (Your suits look nice, it's just be nice to see some other examples as well). Thank you


Understood, and no offense taken.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

omanae said:


> This is probably one of the more pathetic attempts I've ever witnessed at someone trying to discredit me, which having presented research at psychological conventions here in Chicago, has been done academically.


Do you understand that, based on the sentence structure you have chosen, you are explicitly stating that you have been "academically discredited"?



> I made a case, other's agreed,


Other's _what?_ Did their suits agree? Their tailors? Perhaps the nameless academics of Chicago, banded together to discredit your misuse of "ingenuous"?



> we are all trying to get back to the original topic


Some of us aren't trying very hard, however. Perhaps the memory of your academic discrediting still stings. At that oh-so-psychological convention, did anybody imply that you were a "disingenious", which would be a made-up word implying the opposite of genius, assuming that one misspelled "genius" to start?

I believe it went down like this:

_(We find our SCENE in a Chicago convention. A ballroom is in disarray. Men are standing and shouting, complimentary items are being thrown in a fashion neither complimentary nor complementary, chairs are askew. At the podium, *omanae* is attempting to defend himself.)_

*omanae:* Gentlemen! Please quiet down! I will not stand up here and be discredited in this fashion!

*Man in Crowd #1:* Your presentation is a _Freud_!

*Man in Crowd #2:* I'm too _Jung_ to have to listen to this crap!

*Man in Crowd #3:* (_aside, to his neighbor_)This convention really _is_ quite psychological.

*omanae:* Listen, I'm no "genious"...

*MIC #1:* That makes you a _disingenious!_

*omanae:* (_now visibly upset_) ...but this is pathetic! Nearly as pathetic as other discrediting I have suffered in the past!

*MIC #2:* Get off the stage, you master of the malapropism!

*Unknown Man:* I believe I may be of assistance here.

*Crowd:* Why, it's Mr. Astor! Followed by his long-time assistant, Mr. Black!

*Astor:* Thank you, all. Friends, Jews, countrymen: lend me your ear's.

*MIC #3:* Your ear's _what?_

*Black*: Please, everyone! Let Astor finish.

*Astor*: Thank you. I dream of that day when we will judge a man, not by his disingenuosity, if that is even a word, nor by the content of his character, but by the fabric card he has chosen for overseas tailoring. These cards will bear prestigious names. Most of them will be spelled correctly...

*Black:* (_whispering in Astor's ear_) Perhaps we should gloss over this, Sir, lest sales of the "Zeena Su Misery" falter.

*Astor:* Ahem. Yes. I shall continue. Our products are for sale in the hall. Thank you.

*AZChilicat:* (_appearing from nowhere_) I was the youngest hospital CEO in Arizona history!

*MIC #2:* You're too late! That was another era of AAAC parody!

_FINIS_


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> Do you understand that, based on the sentence structure you have chosen, you are explicitly stating that you have been "academically discredited"?
> 
> Other's _what?_ Did their suits agree? Their tailors? Perhaps the nameless academics of Chicago, banded together to discredit your misuse of "ingenuous"?
> 
> ...


Dude. You are freakin' hillarious. Even if we have been at odds throughout this discussion, you have me laughing with each post.


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## RipRoar (Jan 8, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> Do you understand that, based on the sentence structure you have chosen, you are explicitly stating that you have been "academically discredited"?
> 
> *Astor:* Thank you, all. Friends, Jews, countrymen: lend me your ear's.
> 
> ...


Made me laugh there, PorscheEngine! You've gotten funnier, and I've liked you better, as this thread has unspooled itself. Additional points for signing off with the Latin word traditionally used to end a play - which this thread has been, with multiple acts, protagonists, and villains. You play the heel well, and with some relish, it seems.

I must say, though - attacking someone's grammar, vocab, spelling, or typing ability is a pretty cheap tool of argument. You're obviously too bright to use that crutch, so may I humbly suggest you drop it?

Re: returning this thread to its original discussion around the authenticity (or lack thereof) of certain naming conventions, I - like you - have no desire to go in circles ad nauseam. There will be no winners declared. I participated early by offering my thoughts, but at this point there is nothing constructive to be added to the discourse. By anyone. Might I then request that potential posters just chill?


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

RipRoar said:


> Might I then request that potential posters just chill?


Unless, of course there is someone other than myself who can post pictures of an A&B suit or share an opinion on the clothing regarding quality and service, right *Omanae*?


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

RipRoar said:


> I must say, though - attacking someone's grammar, vocab, spelling, or typing ability is a pretty cheap tool of argument. You're obviously too bright to use that crutch, so may I humbly suggest you drop it?


As a perennial keyboard fumble-fingerer myself, I rarely "play dirty" in that regard... but when the proverbial deconstructive fruit is so low-hanging, I can't resist. I didn't think that *omanae* original typo was really a typo, so I pounced. Sorry 

Perhaps a better way to reframe this discussion, and I would agree that I "owe" this thread something constructive, would be:

There are a few tailors/companies here on AAAC who use Far Eastern labor, such as the "Benjamin Clothes" fellow. What reasons would you have for and against choosing A&B over these "local" fellows?

I'd also like to see a discussion about where the "sweet spot" in custom-v-MTM-v-OTR stuff is. I'd characterize A&B as made-to-measure, not truly "custom", since I doubt they are drawing a silhouette or using an actual "cutter" in Hong Kong. For $600, are you really better-off choosing an HSM (until they go out of business)?

The "authenticity" thing is my particular fetish. We have so few _authentic_ choices left to us as dressers that I've become a touch defensive in that regard. I like the idea of knowing the "whole story" behind what I'm wearing. Surely all the AAAC members who wear A&B know the "whole story", but I just wish that Mr. Schottenstein had chosen a more "authentic" name.

As an example, I was a huge supporter of Charles Tyrwhitt in AAAC's earlier days. I defended them against all the (frankly legitimate) criticism of their flimsy buttons, wacky ads, stupid sales, misleading fabric names, you name it... but when they moved their shirt production out of the UK without telling anyone, I felt betrayed. I'll never buy another Tyrwhitt piece again. That's one more vendor you can't "trust". I'm more than willing to admit that I'm a little crazier than most on this topic.


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## RipRoar (Jan 8, 2008)

^^Thanks for your candor, FlatSix. I suspect that you, like me, thoroughly enjoy expressing yourself through language, and that you consider yourself quite adept at this particular art. Nothing wrong with that, except I know firsthand that it often creates an easy contempt towards others one may - correctly or not - consider less, ah, _accomplished_ in the wielding of words. I have to remind myself that this specific fruit, low-hanging as it may be, is often unsatisfying in an argument/discussion context.

Also thanks for your substantive and constructive attempts at conversation-steering. I am actually interested in reading forumites' opinions on the so-called sweet spot at the A&B price point.

Your obsession (compulsion?) regarding authenticity is certainly understandable to an extent, and quite valid in this age of global outsourcing and murky branding, but I think you're right in admitting your level of mania may be extreme.  So here are some further conversation-starting questions: Is "nationality" a part of a company's identity? If so, what basis is used as the determinant? For A&B, they are headquartered in the U.S. of A., with a pan-Euro name, and pay tailors in Hong Kong. Where does one even start?


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## Feisfrum (Jul 28, 2005)

gnatty8 said:


> Canali makes fabric?


That's what i was told......could be wrong though


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

Feisfrum said:


> That's what i was told......could be wrong though


I think it could have been fabric that Canali uses, such as Brioni using Scabal.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

Does anyone have experience with the A&B sales reps in the DC area? I sent an inquiry to the generic address for the DC reps, but haven't heard anything back. It's only been about 5 days, but I really expected them to be a little more prompt when a possible lead comes to them? They may have been turned off by some of the questions I asked; we'll see if they do get around to replying...


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## mcr29 (Aug 4, 2008)

flatline said:


> They may have been turned off by some of the questions I asked; we'll see if they do get around to replying...


What questions did you ask?


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

mcr29 said:


> What questions did you ask?


Let's see...


I wanted the names & experience of all of their sales people in the DC area.
I asked if they could provide information about the suit's construction. I've heard that each customer has an individual pattern on file, but I'm assuming it comes from a set of standard silhouette patterns.
I asked whether they have a "standard" local tailor for the DC area or if they will pay for alterations from my usual tailor (Fields English in Georgetown).
 I think I also asked about button options and whether the Bemberg linings were silk or some other material.

Come to think of it, perhaps they are still at work gathering this plethora of information... One can hope.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

For what it's worth, my inquiry remains unanswered. I sent my questions to the main [email protected] address on Tuesday afternoon as well, but have received nothing. Not even an automated "we got your message". Both email addresses have had over 48 hours to respond. I'm rapidly losing interest in giving this company any of my precious, precious dollars.


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## Bruce Wayne (Mar 10, 2008)

FlatSix said:


> I believe you've answered your own question there; it's *tacky*.
> 
> *The whole idea behind "Astor & Black" is that you, the would-be purchaser, are so new to this game (presumably because your parents were Not Our Kind, Dear) that you would be taken in by an imaginary pair of quasi-Anglo-Saxon tailors. Like the creations of our dear Mr. Lipshitz, this is WASP America viewed through a parodical Jewish lens*. Somebody's sitting over at the New Albany Country Club having a massive laugh about all this right now.
> 
> ...


Hey you, I'm sensing some anti-semitic undertones here. As a proud Jew (and someone who knows some of the Schottenstein family) I find this repulsive. This better be the last time.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

Bruce Wayne said:


> Hey you, I'm sensing some anti-semitic undertones here. As a proud Jew (and someone who knows some of the Schottenstein family) I find this repulsive. This better be the last time.


I'm self-editing to cut the snark and to avoid being banned.

short version: I'm ethnically Jewish and was married in temple. I'm very far from being an anti-Semite. This is probably only a surprise to newer members.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

FlatSix said:


> short version: I'm ethnically Jewish and was married in temple. I'm very far from being an anti-Semite. This is probably only a surprise to newer members.


One of the senior partners at my firm--a Jewish man himself--often quips that "most Jews are anti-semites." It's gotten more than its fair share of laughs.


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## eHaberdasher (May 5, 2006)

omanae said:


> To me it seems that if you can get a suit, made from quality fabrics that's fully canvassed for a decent price the name, whether it be made up or not, should not matter too much. I'm sure if we look at the rest of our culture there are plenty of instances of fake names to sell goods, I have not done the research on this, but who knows if there was a real Betty crocker, Sara lee, or more to the point for those who do enjoy their snobbery Ralph Lauren, who changed his name to a more anglicized version from something like Lipschitz I believe, because he didn't think the Jewish name would sell. So I guess polo, purple label, black label, etc. all make you laugh, especially since the suiting is made by another company entirely, an italian one, not jewish or american or british.


Can anyone confirm that these suits really are fully canvassed? As in, opened up the lining and looked inside? There are other brands that claim full canvas construction, but actually not, so I'm curious about A&B as well.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

I have not seen any A&B garments in person, but I have to say I trust them on the "fully canvassed" claim. Most of the con artists that I know of are primarily eBay type sellers (ie Da Vinci). Astor & Black actively courts higher profile clients like NFL/NBA athletes and enjoys a bit of local press in Ohio. Personally I think we would have heard by now if they were complete scammers.

Also, I just received an email from Judah Estreicher of A&B. Here is what she said:




> 1) The initial appointment will take about and hour maybe more depending how much you get and if you know what you want.
> 2) I run Maryland/DC and Virginia. My friend owns the company and I have gone through a lot of training and personally worked with my friend David who owns the company.
> 3) I will measure you in the initial appointment. If alterations need to be done I have a local guy that does all my work. I have known him for a long time and he does an exceptional job. I would consider using your tailor if I could get it at the prices that I am paying right now. Many of the orders I do don't even need to be taken in.
> 4) As for your body size. I have worked with everyone from obese people to NFL athletes. I have also worked with body builders. The beauty of custom is that I can make the suit fit no matter what the body type is.


Didn't really answer most of my questions, but I will followup and try to get some more information. Obviously she is a salesperson first and foremost; wouldn't be surprised if she is an attractive young lady. I believe the delay in getting a response was due to me intentionally omitting any telephone numbers. I imagine they wanted to get me on the phone and start the snake oil running, even though I explicitly said in my email that I was not interested at this time in purchasing, but was considering a suit in the near future and was looking for more information.


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## Falconboy (May 10, 2008)

*A&B Kerfuffle*

Over at another forum.
A poster named AstorandBlack posted the following:

"We have so few unhappy customers that finding out who WallStreetBobcat was did not require much research. *XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX *(WallStreetBobCat) purchased 2 Scabal Suits, 2 Vests, 2 Pants and 2 Shirts for a total of 4k. The clothes arrived exactly 6 weeks from date of order (This was holiday time so keep in mind its our busiest time of the year)...

-AstorandBlack"

Where the "*XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX" *was the unredacted name of a customer.

You may wish to add customer service, privacy and professionalism to the calculus of whether or not to purchase from A&B. I'm not sure it's a big deal to me, personally, but since their service has been a topic recently I thought it might be useful to some to note it.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

eHaberdasher said:


> Can anyone confirm that these suits really are fully canvassed? As in, opened up the lining and looked inside? There are other brands that claim full canvas construction, but actually not, so I'm curious about A&B as well.


They are. I haven't opened mine up, but you can feel the canvas throughout the entire jacket.


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## codhead (Mar 9, 2008)

On the subject of Versace cloth.

I recently bought a bespoke suit from a UK charity (thrift) shop. It's a two-piece, 3 button, black pinstripe. The jacket and trouser pockets have a scuff strip in black with golf lettering: "GIANNI VERSACE FLANNEL WOOL ITALY".

When I get the opportunity to photograph it I'll post a link. There are no tailor labels on either jacket or trousers but it is obviously a well-tailored suit and the cloth is superb.


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## GreenPlastic (Jan 27, 2009)

flatline said:


> Obviously she is a salesperson first and foremost; wouldn't be surprised if she is an attractive young lady.


I'd be surprised if "she" was a lady. Judah is a man's name.


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## GreenPlastic (Jan 27, 2009)

In re the name "Astor & Black," I'm somewhat torn. On one hand, sure, the name is misleading when clearly a Mr. Astor and a Mr. Black never existed. On the other hand, I can't say I blame the company for trying to market a product and make a profit.

A&B seems to be targeting young, mid-20s to early 30s, American professionals with relatively high earning power (say, young lawyers or bankers). This market segment no doubt responds better to the name "Astor & Black" than it would to, say, "Schottenstein." That's just marketing 101, sadly.

To put it another way: if _you_ were starting a clothing company and going after yuppie Americans, what would you call it? Let's say you had a surname like Schottenstein. It'd be more 'honest' to call your company Schottenstein, sure. But would that be a profit-maximizing choice? As someone with a Jewish surname himself, I suggest it wouldn't be.

We Jews have a proud history of hiding or changing our last names to conform to the American consumer's desires. Just ask Ralph Lauren, f.k.a., Ralph Lifschitz. The sad fact of the matter is that a great many Americans don't like us and/or don't trust our names. And let's be honest: our names aren't always the most tongue-trippingly dulcet sounding, either.


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## jjman (Feb 26, 2009)

*A&B Info*

I have read several posts but never added comments of my own. I think I may be able to add some detail regarding Astor & Black. I am in NO WAY affiliated with the company except as a customer. In fact, I became a customer by taking a chance after seeing what I thought was a good idea in a magazine advertisement about 12 months ago. The ad said all the right things so I decided to take a chance.

About me&#8230;I am a 36 yo who can buy OTR without too much trouble (48R suit). I have purchased several MTM suits (Zegna, Coppley) and shirts (BB, lots of Robert Talbott, and Individualized) but never anything truly bespoke (Oxxford, Brioni). My style is quite traditional.

About my experience&#8230;To begin my risk with A&B I emailed the company's local email address. I got a response that the rep had recently left the company to get married (understandable) but that there would be another rep in town the following week. I met the rep&#8230;who happened to be the owner, David S&#8230;and actually took a huge risk by buying a 3 suit Scabal package (with custom shirts and ties) AND adding 2 blazers. David had current books from Scabal, etc. (yes, the faux ostrich covers). Yes, I left wondering if I had just made a mistake&#8230;I didn't.

My garments arrived 5 weeks later as promised. The fit was perfect (down to the rise on the pants). These garments are somewhere between MTM and full bespoke in my opinion. One fitting, yes&#8230;but for me it was perfect&#8230;David probably took 50 measurements. I say in between full bespoke and MTM because I was able to specify any detail I chose such as lapel style and width interior stitching colors, linings, additional pockets, etc&#8230;more than my other MTM experiences. The garments are fully canvassed and the buttons are horn&#8230;surgeon's cuffs and pick stitching look good. The shirts initially disappointed because the collars and cuffs are indeed stiff. Surely they weren't up to the Talbott's I wore mostly before this. I have warmed to them substantially because the fit is amazing. The common thread here is that the person taking the measurements is critical to the success of this experience.

Since my first "package" I have bought a bunch more including:

2 summer suits (cotton and seersucker)
2 winter suits (1 was even a double breasted pin stripe which I suspect is harder to make)
1 all season suit (selected off the cover of a magazine)
10 or 12 more shirts&#8230;really&#8230;I wear them all the time now in favor of my Talbotts
1 cashmere overcoat (which was flawless and even had surgeon's cuffs)
4 blazers (various weights, materials, and patterns)
1 pair of shoes (simple wingtips from his hand grade Loake collection - not as good as my John Lobbs, but better than my Peals from BB).

The last several items I have ordered from A&B (some are yet to arrive) I have simply worked with David over the phone or email (always responsive) and told him what I wanted&#8230;"send me a navy linen blazer for the summer with X,Y, and Z details."

Also, regarding the company buying "end lots" or last year's leftover fabrics, that is simply wrong. I have seen current Scabal ads and selected items directly from samples I have seen at other high end retailers in my area and simply given the swatch number to David.

I would be happy to share pictures (as it seems these are requested on this site frequently and no one delivers), but give me some details on what you want to see.

My experience has been good&#8230;I respect what David is trying to do.


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## pfod (Mar 5, 2009)

*My Astor & Black Experience*

I purchased an Astor & Black package last year through Judah, A&B's DC/Baltimore rep. The package consisted of 3 suits, 6 shirts, and 6 ties and cost $2200. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the results, especially the suits. I'll explain in further detail how everything went and what I liked and didn't like.

At the outset, I need to wear suits on a semi-regular basis for work. I am short and thin and don't fit conventional sizes. I've had off the rack suits retailored to fit my frame but the results were only mediocre and no longer adequate. So, I was wiling to spend more to get a better fit but was not interested in spending a couple of thousand dollars for a single suit. In the past, I purchased some shirts from mytailor. I found the results to be pretty good, but was never too crazy about the tailor who they sent to DC. I came close to buying a suit from them, but the time I was there for a fitting I happened to see a customer wearing one of the suits and was not impressed with the fit.

With that background, I was very wary about A&B at the time b/c there was so little info little info about it from people who had purchased from them in the past. I decided to give A&B a shot. To avoid sinking all my money into an unknown, I decided that I would only buy one suit and shirt and if I liked them, I'd get the rest of the package.

After contacting A&B, Judah came over to my place. He's a young guy and I had questions about his measuring expertise. He did take a ton of measurements those, including looking at some pants I have from Theory that fit really nicely. I then went over the fabric selections. For the suits, there were just a ton of choices, almost more than I could process. I ultimately settled on a pretty conservative navy w/a light pin stripe. There were tons of options and ways to customize the suit too. I didn't opt for anything too fancy, however. With respect to the shirt selections, I was a bit less impressed. There were some decent options, but I find the choices to be smaller in comparison to the suit options (also they had a much smaller selection compared to mytailor).

So, I waited about five or six weeks and Judah returned with the suit and shirt. No problems with the suit, but I thought that the sleeves on the shirt were a bit on the short side. Happy with how things looked, I ordered the rest of the package.

Overall, I'm extremely happy with how the suits came out. I've never had any suit come even remotely close to fitting as well. I routinely receive compliments about the look and fit. I also appreciate the extras that A&B includes that you don't find on an off the rack suit. The tailoring is quite robust and the fabric is nice and comfortable w/o being too delicate to stand up to travel. (Whether the fabric is true Zegna or Scabal, I cannot tell and, truth be told, I don't really care. I know it is of greater concern to others, which is fine, but for me the chief issue was getting several suits that fit properly and look really nice.)

While I do like them, I'm less impressed with the shirts than I am with the suits. I had them lengthen the sleeves a bit before I purchased the rest of the package, however, I had some trouble picking an additional five fabric patterns that I wanted. I also wish that Judah could have provided more help on what patterns worked with the suits I had selected. He was pretty hands off about that part. Also, as others have mentioned, the cuffs and collars are quite stiff which some may not like. I found the quality of ties to be pretty good but wasn't too impressed with the selection.

If, like me, off the rack, even with good tailoring, isn't really an option for nice suits and shirts, then I think A&B is a great option. There is no question in my mind that I would buy from A&B again and am giving some thought to purchasing another package. However, if you have the option of wearing off the rack, then I would still say it is worth checking out but you may find A&B less compelling.

Finally, just want to address the whole issue about whether they are being candid w/the name and corporate identity. The website has all the press on A&B and the founder and clearly explains for all to see that the company is new and not English. Judah also explained the company to me the first time I spoke w/him. I had absolutely no misconceptions about the company when I purchased from them.


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## magogian (Jul 2, 2008)

pfod said:


> I purchased an Astor & Black package last year through Judah, A&B's DC/Baltimore rep. The package consisted of 3 suits, 6 shirts, and 6 ties and cost $2200. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the results, especially the suits. I'll explain in further detail how everything went and what I liked and didn't like.
> 
> At the outset, I need to wear suits on a semi-regular basis for work. I am short and thin and don't fit conventional sizes. I've had off the rack suits retailored to fit my frame but the results were only mediocre and no longer adequate. So, I was wiling to spend more to get a better fit but was not interested in spending a couple of thousand dollars for a single suit. In the past, I purchased some shirts from mytailor. I found the results to be pretty good, but was never too crazy about the tailor who they sent to DC. I came close to buying a suit from them, but the time I was there for a fitting I happened to see a customer wearing one of the suits and was not impressed with the fit.
> 
> ...


Hey, how much did you get paid for that? I'm interested in making some money on the side.


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## pfod (Mar 5, 2009)

Yes, clearly I'm on the A&B payroll. Which is why I said that:
1) I didn't actually trust A&B with a full order and therefore originally only purchased a suit and shirt first;
2) I wasn't particularly impressed w/the shirt and tie selection;
3) Some people find the collars and cuffs too stiff (I agree);
4) I didn't think that the A&B rep I worked with was too helpful selecting appropriate shirts to go w/my suits; 
5) I thought the initial fit on the shirt sleeves was too short;
6) that while I was extremely satisfied w/the suits and, for me, that made A&B a good choice for persons who are unable to buy suits and shirts off the rack, A&B might not prove to be as good of an option for persons who can buy off the rack; and 
7) I am only thinking about purchasing more from A&B but have not actually done so.

I'll be glad to answer actual questions about my A&B experience.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

pfod said:


> Yes, clearly I'm on the A&B payroll.


Magogian's skepticism is well founded. Two first time posters show up to revive a post on A&B with largely positive comments? Come on.


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## Falconboy (May 10, 2008)

I'll accept that you're representation that you are not an employee of astor and balck.



pfod said:


> I'll be glad to answer actual questions about my A&B experience.


At what point in your experience with Astor and Black did Mr. Astor, Mr. Black or one of their representatives ask or suggest that you enroll in a fashion forum and opine on the quality of their service?

BTW, welcome to the forum.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

jjman said:


> I have read several posts but never added comments of my own. I think I may be able to add some detail regarding Astor & Black. I am in NO WAY affiliated with the company except as a customer. In fact, I became a customer by taking a chance after seeing what I thought was a good idea in a magazine advertisement about 12 months ago. The ad said all the right things so I decided to take a chance.
> 
> About me&#8230;I am a 36 yo who can buy OTR without too much trouble (48R suit). I have purchased several MTM suits (Zegna, Coppley) and shirts (BB, lots of Robert Talbott, and Individualized) but never anything truly bespoke (Oxxford, Brioni). My style is quite traditional.
> 
> ...


Nice first post.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

pfod said:


> I purchased an Astor & Black package last year through Judah, A&B's DC/Baltimore rep. The package consisted of 3 suits, 6 shirts, and 6 ties and cost $2200. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the results, especially the suits. I'll explain in further detail how everything went and what I liked and didn't like.
> 
> At the outset, I need to wear suits on a semi-regular basis for work. I am short and thin and don't fit conventional sizes. I've had off the rack suits retailored to fit my frame but the results were only mediocre and no longer adequate. So, I was wiling to spend more to get a better fit but was not interested in spending a couple of thousand dollars for a single suit. In the past, I purchased some shirts from mytailor. I found the results to be pretty good, but was never too crazy about the tailor who they sent to DC. I came close to buying a suit from them, but the time I was there for a fitting I happened to see a customer wearing one of the suits and was not impressed with the fit.
> 
> ...


Great first post.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

Do they pay by the hour or do they pay per post? I think it's by the hour because the posts are quite lengthy.


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## pfod (Mar 5, 2009)

Oh, you got me. Astor & Black secretly gives me a cut for every post I make on fashion forums.

Geez. Get over yourselves.

Look, I found this forum last year when I was looking for info on finding suits and shirts for short guys. I read one or two threads about Astor and Black and found them to be dated or unhelpful b/c they consisted primarily on longtime forum members accusing people who had experience with Astor of being on the payroll. I have checked in on the first couple pages of the forum about once a month to see if there are any new threads about my subject of interest (and was particularly interested to see if there was any information about Jimmy Au's). I noticed the Astor and Black thread and in an effort to provide some useful information to people, rather than just hurl accusations about their motives, described my experience warts and all. If you want a forum in which all you have are threads accusing people of being paid to write their posts, then that is what you get. On the other hand, if you want a forum that welcomes new members and their opinions, then that is the other alternative.

I thought too that my description of obvious negatives about Astor was sufficient to make clear that I am not working for them and was not told or even encouraged to make posts here (for your information, Judah, the only Astor person I worked with, never mentioned this or any other forum). For example, I criticized the selection of ties and shirts and primarily limited my praise to the suits which I continue to be really happy about. Are they the same as a $3000 custom suit made from the best fabric from the best mill? I've never worn one but I can't imagine that the two are equals. Moreover, I also pretty clearly stated that I had no idea if the cloth was the same new zegna or scabal cloth that they represent. But, for my purposes, as someone who doesn't have the option of buying suits off the rack, I had a pretty good experience, even considering my relative displeasure about the shirt and tie selection, and would recommend them to people in my situation. 

If my opinions, or my decision to register on the forum in order to post my views, offended those of you who post here on a regular basis, well, so be it and I'm really sorry.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

jjman said:


> I have read several posts but never added comments of my own. I think I may be able to add some detail regarding Astor & Black. *I am in NO WAY affiliated with the company* except as a customer.


PMSL

Thank you for pointing that out.
ic12337:


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

After witnessing this trainwreck of a shill from Astor & Black on SF, I don't trust anyone with under 100 posts who claims to have been a customer. Especially someone who makes their first post a 1,000 word essay.

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=57511&page=4&highlight=astor+%26amp%3B+black

P.S. I called it in my the first response to the thread that someone would come along to plug it! ic12337:


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

pfod said:


> Oh, you got me. Astor & Black secretly gives me a cut for every post I make on fashion forums.
> 
> Geez. Get over yourselves.
> 
> ...


Well firstly, I haven't been here that long, but I do apologize for the hostility. Unfortunately, one isn't exactly innocent until proven guilty on the Internet - forums have been swindled too many times before.

Consider the fact that within a week of each other, 2 new members joined the forum, and their first posts were about Astor & Black. Also, both posts told almost exactly the same story - buyer was hesitant, got a single suit to try it out, loved it and bought a full package. Both buyers also admitted that the shirts left a lot to be desired. If I was a paranoid man, I might hypothesize that the stories have just enough 'negativity' to be believable, while simultaneously singing the praises of the (high-ticket) suits. But I'm not paranoid (am I?).

I will give you the benefit of the doubt - firstly, Astor & Black can't afford to alienate a customer base like AAAC; the market for custom or semi-custom clothing isn't exactly a booming demographic. If we even caught a whiff of foul play here, I can assure you that the collective membership of AAAC would make it their business to inform the public about it. If I play devil's advocate for a minute, it doesn't make sense for 2 'moles' if you will, to post nearly identical stories. As you can tell, it instantly raises suspicion.

So thanks for your input. I sincerely hope it was an honest account.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

omairp said:


> https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=57511&page=4&highlight=astor+%26amp%3B+black


"*We have so few unhappy customers that finding out who WallStreetBobcat was did not require much research*. ************ (WallStreetBobCat) purchased 2 Scabal Suits, 2 Vests, 2 Pants and 2 Shirts for a total of 4k."



Finding out who the customer was probably not difficult, as he explained the issues, part of what he ordered and cost; however, to name the customer and continue the issue on a public forum is just wrong. If I was WSB, I would have copied the thread and sent copies to A&S HQ, A&S PR and trading standards.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

ToryBoy said:


> "*We have so few unhappy customers that finding out who WallStreetBobcat was did not require much research*. ************ (WallStreetBobCat) purchased 2 Scabal Suits, 2 Vests, 2 Pants and 2 Shirts for a total of 4k."
> 
> 
> 
> Finding out who the customer was probably not difficult, as he explained the issues, part of what he ordered and cost; however, to name the customer and continue the issue on a public forum is just wrong. If I was WSB, I would have copied the thread and sent copies to A&S HQ, A&S PR and trading standards.


I'm not sure who you mean by "A&S" - are you referring to A&B? If you continue reading the rest of the thread, a new poster identifying herself as the head of Astor & Black's PR dept joins in and says that the employee who posted previously was terminated for making unauthorized statements on behalf of the company and revealing private customer information (sadly the posts were in ALL CAPS!!!1).

I was not previously aware of that thread, I guess I make it a point to avoid StyleForum. I have to say that I find the disclosure of personal information appalling, and not a good omen for the fledgling, fictional Messrs Astor and Black. However, by (purportedly) making an example of the offending employee, hopefully the company has sent a message to its employees that it will not tolerate that kind of blatant unprofessionalism.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

flatline said:


> I'm not sure who you mean by "A&S" - are you referring to A&B? If you continue reading the rest of the thread, a new poster identifying herself as the head of Astor & Black's PR dept joins in and says that the employee who posted previously was terminated for making unauthorized statements on behalf of the company and revealing private customer information (sadly the posts were in ALL CAPS!!!1).
> 
> I was not previously aware of that thread, I guess I make it a point to avoid StyleForum.


Oops. *Make that A&B. *

I did look at all 6 pages and read the PR dept response, which did not help. As for Style Forum, I know some Ask Andy members use the forum but not for me (I did join SF but never posted); although there are some interesting threads on there, often linked on here.

ps: I do not dislike A&S that much


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## Felix Krull (Dec 20, 2008)

What is the difference between A&B and say, Tom James for example? I haven't dealt with Tom James in 15 years but even back then you couldn't touch an entry-level MTM suit for less than a grand. I'd be very curious to know where the A&B suits are made. I doubt very seriously that they could possibly be made in U.S.A. and have the level of hand tailoring they advertise for $500 or $600. 

And despite what many people think, MTM is NOT, I repeat NOT even close to bespoke. To a small-timer, MTM may feel great compared to that sack suit they bought at Sears, but once you've experienced bespoke you can discern MTM for the pale imitation that it is.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

Felix Krull said:


> What is the difference between A&B and say, Tom James for example? I haven't dealt with Tom James in 15 years but even back then you couldn't touch an entry-level MTM suit for less than a grand. I'd be very curious to know where the A&B suits are made. I doubt very seriously that they could possibly be made in U.S.A. and have the level of hand tailoring they advertise for $500 or $600.
> 
> And despite what many people think, MTM is NOT, I repeat NOT even close to bespoke. To a small-timer, MTM may feel great compared to that sack suit they bought at Sears, but once you've experienced bespoke you can discern MTM for the pale imitation that it is.


Astor & Black is made in Hong Kong. They claim its all a family affair or whatever and they don't have any work done in mainland China, but how anyone could prove that claim is beyond me.

No one (even the purported shills) has claimed that A&B would be bespoke quality at $500. However, the ability to dictate most/all of the choices (gorge, lapel width, etc) does make it an attractive proposition at this pricepoint. As you noted, it is at the low end of the price scale, even by MTM standards.

PS: It would be nice if people posting glowing reviews of the clothing had pictures to corroborate their remarks.


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## pfod (Mar 5, 2009)

I just had a quick look at that style forum incident and can now appreciate some of the skepticism exhibited toward my post. 

I'm pretty sure that the A&B suits are made in china or hong kong. Could be wrong about that but I think that is what Judah told me or it may have been what I read in one of the articles on their site. That is why I thought of them more along the lines of a place like mytailor. 

Also, I've seen several references to their suits running in the $500 to $600 neighborhood. My experience is that is not really correct and they won't sell you an individual suit for that price. Rather, that is what the price of each suit turns out to be when they are priced as part of the complete package (which appears to have changed from last year in that you only receive 3 ties instead of 6). As I mentioned in my first post, I purchased one suit and one shirt before going ahead with the rest of the $2200 package. This was last year, but I think that the individual suit was in the $800 range. 

Finally, I've never worn a true bespoke suit and, while I'm extremely happy with my A&B suits, I have little doubt that true bespoke would really shine in comparison. I think if you are used to bespoke and working very closely with the tailor, you will probably be pretty unimpressed with how Astor works.


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## Felix Krull (Dec 20, 2008)

I know how A&B works from my brief experience with Tom James early in my career. A salesman who has been trained in men's clothing 101 shows up at your residence or place of business, measures you, lets you select various asundry details of your suit and then, voila!, in 5 weeks they bring the finished garment to you. 

My problem with MTM is that its still made to a generic pattern, only that generic pattern now has your exact measurements. It never felt personal to me. Any tailor will tell you that cutting the fabric for the garment is the most crucial step in the process of making a suit and I simply don't trust a machine, no matter how advanced, to do the job that a man with years of experience can. MTM is the kind of thing that a professional man should eventually outgrow. A MTM suit is like a training bra for a man's wardrobe, necessary at a certain point perhaps, but eventually embarrassing and dysfunctional. 

Thus, with this business model, you are dealing with 1) a salesperson who has an incentive to make you buy what you don't need and 2) machines who are making your suit who only know you as a set of measurements punched into a computer. The whole process just seems quite artificial to me!!! 

But like I said, if you're 25 and only have $1,000 to spend on a suit and you want it to be "custom" then maybe A&B will work for you. We've all been at that stage so I pass no judgment, only words of counsel.


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## jjman (Feb 26, 2009)

I, like pfod it seems, have gone through similar experiences with A&B...we both read a bit of negative press on these forums (that's exactly how I discovered the forum by doing research on a company of which I was not familiar) but took a chance and was impressed with the results. Having read misinformation (or simply a lack of info), I decided to post.

I mentioned I was not affiliated with the company simply because others clearly working for them had posted and their posts were largely disregarded.

No one at A&B had ever mentioned a forum to me or suggested I post anything about them. Regarding all this talk about masking their Jewish background...that is quite silly...look at their web site.

Again, I think they do a damn fine job for the price.


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## jjman (Feb 26, 2009)

_Consider the fact that within a week of each other, 2 new members joined the forum, and their first posts were about Astor & Black. Also, both posts told almost exactly the same story - buyer was hesitant, got a single suit to try it out, loved it and bought a full package. Both buyers also admitted that the shirts left a lot to be desired. If I was a paranoid man, I might hypothesize that the stories have just enough 'negativity' to be believable, while simultaneously singing the praises of the (high-ticket) suits. But I'm not paranoid (am I?)._

Please do give the benefit of the doubt...my post was indeed honest and I am happy to answer questions and even post some pics if someone has a particular detail they would like photographed.


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## jjman (Feb 26, 2009)

Regarding omairp's comments, then don't trust what I have written...don't buy a suit from A&B...don't continue to read posts...who would care? I posted originally to give others what I was lacking (an honest, actual experience with the company)...if you don't believe or accept what i have to say...don't. My experience...a somewhat educated one at that...has been good, in fact, exceptional. Others may have a different take.

That I don't have thousands of posts can mean a few things - I am new to this forum (as I have described), I don't have time for thousands of posts, or I choose to post when I have something to say.


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## BG Cane (Mar 2, 2009)

jjman,

As someone curious about the style and quality of Astor & Black suits, I was wondering if you could post some pictures of your suits. 

First, If you can please post about 5-6 different suits alone, up close, including the surgeon cuffs. I have heard mixed reviews about these cuffs.

Second, can you post a few pics of the fit of the suit jacket on you - front & back. I just wanted to see how their measurements stack up to other MTM programs.

This would be most appreciated.


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## jjman (Feb 26, 2009)

Not a problem...give me a couple of days to get these together.


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## tbelote (Dec 1, 2008)

*Some pictures from my A&B order*

I ordered three suits from their most inexpensive package. Let me know what you think. I will try to post more later. There is a gallery link below and you can click on the link before each image for a bigger picture. This is my first MTM order from anyone.

https://tombelote.com/ab/hq/img-2.jpg

https://tombelote.com/ab/hq/img-9.jpg

more pictures.


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## Felix Krull (Dec 20, 2008)

It would help if you would post pics of you WEARING the suit. That way we could judge the fit, the drape, and construction of the suit on you. It's difficult to discern its quality with it on a hanger.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

Felix Krull said:


> It would help if you would post pics of you WEARING the suit. That way we could judge the fit, the drape, and construction of the suit on you. It's difficult to discern its quality with it on a hanger.


+1

And this is a nitpick, but I sort of get turned off when the lapel button hole is a keyhole.


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