# Proper Cloth Shirts?



## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

Has anyone had any experience with this company?  I actually saw an ad for them on Facebook (I hardly ever login to Facebook though, so it makes me wonder if they are sniffing my browser history or just got lucky).

From the website (https://propercloth.com):



> Proper Cloth shirts are produced entirely in the United States. The shape of each panel of fabric is computer generated and cut with a robotic cutter to ensure accuracy and precision. Each shirt is completely hand sewn with a minimum of 16 stitches per inch. Collars and cuffs are fused to ensure they remain crisp and use a two step collar attachment process. Buttons are attached with over 200 stitches per button hole and criss-cross stitching.


The prices start at $90, which seems quite reasonable if it is really entirely hand sewn - i.e., button holes and all.

You can specify collar, sleeve length, yoke width, chest width, midsection width, shirt length, sleeve width, and cuff around. Interestingly, in addition to the typical MTM self-sizing option, you can tell them a brand of shirt that fits you well, and they replicate that shirt (i.e., "Thomas Pink Slim Fit 15.5").

I am considering picking up a shirt to try them out, but I thought I'd check here since I can't recall them ever being mentioned before and a search turned up zilch.


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## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

I think they mean sewn by people with machines. Not automated sewing equipment.
buttonholes are by machine not hand.


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## Guy Redux (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't know about the shirts, but the website is **cool**


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## rmcnabb (Feb 25, 2009)

That website is fun to drive! 

I like very much the ability to shape the shirt's dimensions any way you want. I wonder about arm hole height. 

I'm disappointed in the slim choice of fabrics (you could easily double what they have and still only have a decent selection), no placket options, no pocket shape options, no white collar/cuff options, no pleat options. If they use MOP buttons I missed it on the site, and 16 stitches per inch is nothing to write home about.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

I agree re: the fabric selection. I think this must be a relatively new company - they have a very attractive website, but not much in the way of real options, as has been pointed out. They did get back to me quickly. Here are the emails I received:



> "Handsewn" is used pretty roughly in this industry, so let's make sure we're clear. We use sewing machines but the shirt and fabric is guided by a person's hands. Our button holes are sewn this way. The only part of the shirt that is done by machine entirely is the chest pocket (if you order a shirt with a chect pocket anyway). The curves around the bottom of the pocket are tricky and it's positioned in a way that machines just do a better job.
> 
> Our buttons are currently made of a super durable and attractive plastic resin. They are virtually undestructible and smooth, They are off white color and have a slight pearlescent effect to them with a white back. We don't currently offer MOP buttons, but it's something we'll probably do in the future.
> 
> We promise to ship your shirt 4 weeks from day of purchase. Typical turnaround time is 2-3 weeks though. FedEx ground (out of North Carolina) usually takes a few days.


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## dmhamiltontx (Mar 7, 2007)

I think that the website presentation is actually why there are so few fabrics. Every fabric requires an accompanying image of the various styles. That can get expensive quickly. Or, maybe they just wanted an edited collection. 

I have never seen their finished shirt. The website looks well done and the reply to your question is knowledgable. Seems like they might do a good job.


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## Single malt Mark (Apr 11, 2009)

So we're agreed, flatline will be the guinea pig and order some shirts from them, and report back to us :icon_smile_big:


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## felixb (Oct 13, 2007)

*FYI*


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Is 16 stitches per inch very good? It sounds unimpressive to me. I thought fine shirts were supposed to boast a good deal more stitches-per-inch along their seams than a mere 16. Or am I totally misinformed?

PS: They could indeed use a bigger fabric selection, but there's a lot to like about the site. The option of ordering a shirt that copies an OTR sizing regime you already know and like (in my case they would be BB slimfit or CT classic fit, depending on how I planned to use the shirt) is very clever.

I'd really like to see more collar and cuff styles, however, including an option for white-contrast collars and/or cuffs and choices of straight or club collars with pinholes, plus a snap-tab collar like the old BB style. I have no interest at all in options such as lining my collars and cuffs with floral patterns reminiscent of Grandma's wallpaper (one of the goofier shirtwear trends going, IMO).


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## Cottonshirt (Mar 15, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Is 16 stitches per inch very good? It sounds unimpressive to me. I thought fine shirts were supposed to boast a good deal more stitches-per-inch along their seams than a mere 16. Or am I totally misinformed?


I think it unlikely you are misinformed. Sixteen stitches is neither impressive nor anything to be sniffed at but fairly common (usual).

sews her shirts - or at least has them sewn - at 16 stitches to the inch and so do I. There are two places where I use smaller sitches; the eased seam on the collar, and on the label.

I would not be surprised if some shirtmakers use smaller stitches than 16's, but you only have to lay a ruler on your cuff and count stitches to see that 20's or 22's would look ridiculously small.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

All:

I purchased a shirt from Proper Cloth. The first one, I went a little too small on the measurements and it was just too tight. I talked to Seph Skerrit (the founder/president) via email and he had the shirt remade for me. So far, the newer shirt fits me much better, but it's at the cleaners right now, so I'll try to remember to give a proper assessment once it has returned. The construction didn't blow me away the way my Borrelli did the first time I handled it, but it also fits 10x better than the Borrelli did OTR.

Also - in regards to some of the stuff discussed above - Mr Skerrit assured me that they have hundreds (?) of new fabrics on hand that will be added to the website as quickly as they can, including Thomas Mason fabrics. He also said that they plan on implementing some type of custom collar system - where you can specify the length of points, spread, etc. Not sure if there's any plan for tab collars or contrasting cuffs - I don't like either of those things, so I didn't ask about them!


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

My index for wide selection of collar styles and other features is Jantzen. After looking at all the different shapes, etc., they offer, clicking on an MTM shirt site and seeing a point and a handful of spreads as the only options is a letdown.



If a tiny operation like Jantzen can manage that kind of variety, I can't see why other small makers can't or won't do likewise.


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## romad119 (Jun 28, 2009)

*Wow*



PJC in NoVa said:


> My index for wide selection of collar styles and other features is Jantzen. After looking at all the different shapes, etc., they offer, clicking on an MTM shirt site and seeing a point and a handful of spreads as the only options is a letdown.
> 
> If a tiny operation like Jantzen can manage that kind of variety, I can't see why other small makers can't or won't do likewise.


Never realized how many options are out there. Damn, yet another thing to experiment with.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

PJC in NoVa said:


> My index for wide selection of collar styles and other features is Jantzen. After looking at all the different shapes, etc., they offer, clicking on an MTM shirt site and seeing a point and a handful of spreads as the only options is a letdown.
> 
> If a tiny operation like Jantzen can manage that kind of variety, I can't see why other small makers can't or won't do likewise.


One thing to note is that Proper Cloth shirts are all Made in the USA (unlike Jantzen) - it matters to some people, while others couldn't care less. It does mean that a start-up like Proper Cloth incurs much more overhead, especially in the beginning. I'm not surprised that they had to evaluate and offer a smaller selection of collar/cuff styles. They have made every assurance that this will change as quickly as possible.

I chose to give them my business, at least for one shirt, because A)They are made in the US, B)They have excellent customer service, and C)I have an entrepreneurial streak myself, so I respect that they are 'going for it' - they seem to genuinely listen, and actually implemented a number of improvements to their website which I suggested within a week or so. I will probably be ordering 2 or 3 more shirts from them once the new Thomas Mason fabrics are put on the site.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

I took the liberty of emailing ProperCloth's Seph Skerritt to let him know about this thread and to pass along a few suggestions. His response came a few days ago. It was quite friendly and positive, and he suggested that I might want to post it to the board, so here it is:

_Thanks for the email. I really appreciate it. . . . _

_The most immediate thing we'll be rolling out is an expansion to our fabric selection. You can expect around 100 new fabrics in the next couple weeks. These will be mostly 80s thread count broadcloths and pinpoints that should provide us with a good base of affordable selection. _

_Then we'll be adding some higher quality, more expensive options from mills like Getzner, Brembana and Thomas Mason. _

_Next I want to make MOP buttons an option. We've got some really cool pearl and shell buttons coming as well as plastic in other colors. White contrast collars and cuffs will also be something we get to real soon as well. _

_Finally, we'll figure out a way for customers to more specifically design their collars and cuffs. As I'm sure you are well-aware, there are endless options in this area and we want to appropriately balance ease of use with flexibility. _

_We're moving fast on all of this stuff. Thanks for your patience and please keep sharing your ideas.  _

_Cheers, 
Seph_


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

Hi guys, wanted to let you know that we've been adding a lot of new fabrics the last couple weeks. We're now up to 125 or so with more still coming. Check it out - https://propercloth.com Please feel free to post questions here or email me directly and I'll do my best to answer.

Best, 
Seph


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

New fabrics look great . . . just waiting for the new features to go up.


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## Scott Hill (Jun 9, 2009)

agreed; you get what you pay for. If it sounds too good to be true; it most likely is not true.


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

Quick update - we're now up to 133 options for primary fabrics. The new fabrics are mostly towards the high end of the spectrum - 100s, 120s and even a super silky 170s two-ply twill. Note that you can always order samples if you want to see how they feel. 

Also, we've got the white collar/cuff option working in the design tool today. 

Hope you like everything. More stuff coming


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'd like options for placket type, style of pocket(s), and sewn interlining rather than fused on the collar/cuffs/placket. The button down needs more of a roll to it and longer points -- the one in the illustration looks better than on the actual shirt!

Can't wait for the collar adjustment tool.


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## svb (Dec 5, 2007)

Jovan said:


> I'd like options for placket type, style of pocket(s), and sewn interlining rather than fused on the collar/cuffs/placket. The button down needs more of a roll to it and longer points -- the one in the illustration looks better than on the actual shirt!
> 
> Can't wait for the collar adjustment tool.


Just to throw in my 2 cents, I think the button-down needs more undercurve.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

That's pretty much what I'm saying. The illustration shown on the website looks like a Brooks Brothers collar (which is the best button down shape I know) yet the one shown in the picture looks rather flat and lifeless -- like a department store brand. The points do need a bit of curve, however subtle, to achieve that desired "bell" shape.


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

What button down collar picture are you referring to that looks flat and lifeless?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

The one in the shirt customising tool.


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

Ok - I know what you mean. We tried to position the collar the best way (so as to not look flat and lifeless) but there's definitely room for improvement. It's tough to get the shirt to lay the way you want and being in that folded position does make the collar a little awkward. 

To clarify a little more though, the dimensions of the button down collar we use are the same as the Brooks Brothers "Short Button Down" collar (3" points). It's not the classic Brooks Brothers button down which has 3 3/8" points and an easily distinguishable roll.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

It would be nice if you offered it.  There'd have to be no lining at all, though.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

ProperCloth said:


> Ok - I know what you mean. We tried to position the collar the best way (so as to not look flat and lifeless) but there's definitely room for improvement. It's tough to get the shirt to lay the way you want and being in that folded position does make the collar a little awkward.
> 
> To clarify a little more though, the dimensions of the button down collar we use are the same as the Brooks Brothers "Short Button Down" collar (3" points). It's not the classic Brooks Brothers button down which has 3 3/8" points and an easily distinguishable roll.


The short-pointed one is by far the inferior of the two BB b.d. collars.

Any word on whether any of the new collar shapes are coming up on the ProperCloth site anytime soon? I'm still waiting for a club collar to come online as an option.


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

PJC in NoVa said:


> The short-pointed one is by far the inferior of the two BB b.d. collars.
> 
> Any word on whether any of the new collar shapes are coming up on the ProperCloth site anytime soon? I'm still waiting for a club collar to come online as an option.


As far as new collar options go, we had to rearrange some priorities recently, so it doesn't look like we'll have this built into the interface real soon.

However, the good news is that we really can make any collar you want. There won't be a cool preview on the site so it will require a little more imagination. Trying this is probably only a good idea for folks that have a very clear idea of what they want - particularly with regards to point length and spread. Rounded Eton collars are no problem. We can also do non-fused collars if you like. The longer point button down is no-problem too. If you really want to get fancy we could tweak the height of the collar band to be taller or shorter. Just let me know and we'll figure it out


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

ProperCloth said:


> As far as new collar options go, we had to rearrange some priorities recently, so it doesn't look like we'll have this built into the interface real soon.
> 
> However, the good news is that we really can make any collar you want. There won't be a cool preview on the site so it will require a little more imagination. Trying this is probably only a good idea for folks that have a very clear idea of what they want - particularly with regards to point length and spread. Rounded Eton collars are no problem. We can also do non-fused collars if you like. The longer point button down is no-problem too. If you really want to get fancy we could tweak the height of the collar band to be taller or shorter. Just let me know and we'll figure it out


Does the same also apply to cuffs? My favourite cuff styles aren't in your selection, so I was wondering if you could do a cuff style not on your site (like cocktail cuffs). Also, there is no mention of the back of the shirt. Do you use side pleats, no pleats, or a centre box pleat?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

ProperCloth said:


> As far as new collar options go, we had to rearrange some priorities recently, so it doesn't look like we'll have this built into the interface real soon.
> 
> However, the good news is that we really can make any collar you want. There won't be a cool preview on the site so it will require a little more imagination. Trying this is probably only a good idea for folks that have a very clear idea of what they want - particularly with regards to point length and spread. Rounded Eton collars are no problem. We can also do non-fused collars if you like. The longer point button down is no-problem too. If you really want to get fancy we could tweak the height of the collar band to be taller or shorter. Just let me know and we'll figure it out


If you promise to send it back, I can send you a Jantzen shirt with the exact club collar I like. Or I guess I could just trace it and send you the paper. Would that work?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

More options would be great all around. Back pleat, placket, and interlining options should be a priority IMO.

Be great if you could actually replicate the "Polo" collar with no lining -- the way it used to be. I read on the site that Bill Sand is a veteran of Brooks Brothers. However, it would need a beefy oxford cloth to be right. Could you also do a six button front if requested?


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

Doh! I just ordered a white shirt with the English Spread - what I really want is a remake of my Borrelli collars though! I will have to go take some measurements of the points, spread, and collar band and see if Seph & co can do a good imitation...


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

I ordered a shirt from them as well!

Make sure when you order to go through the rotating banner on all the Forum Pages (upper right corner). Keep hitting "refresh" until you see it.

https://propercloth.com/?utm_source=AAAC


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

flatline said:


> Doh! I just ordered a white shirt with the English Spread - what I really want is a remake of my Borrelli collars though! I will have to go take some measurements of the points, spread, and collar band and see if Seph & co can do a good imitation...


I hope Seph will let us know if they can handle tracings of collar outlines. I worry that just sending a few dimensions will not result in precise replication of the exact collar shape I want to reproduce.


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## Allure de Star (Oct 3, 2009)

Rear Pleats are tiny folds of fabric that are sewn into the back of the shirt just under the yoke. The two most popular style of rear pleats are the center box pleat and rear side pleats (also known as knife pleats). The center box pleat is located in the center of the back of the shirt. Rear side pleats are usually a couple inches in from the outer edge of the shirt yoke, one on each side. 

Either style of rear pleats usually adds about 1.5 inches of fabric to the shirts chest circumference and waist circumference. This extra fabric gives the wearer a little more room and can be more comfortable (especially if the wearer has a large midsection. 

Proper Cloth shirts either feature side rear pleats or no pleats at all. We dynamically choose to include the rear pleats based on the desired size of the shirt. 

Rear darts are the opposite. They are also located on the back of the shirt, although lower, usually right around the midsection of the shirt. Rear darts are stitching that runs vertically that makes the shirt narrower. They are usually sewn in a nice curve to give the shirt a slimmer, more shaped look to it. 

Proper Cloth shirts never feature rear-darts. It's a matter of opinion, but we don't think rear-darts belong on men's shirts. Rear darts disrupt the natural flow of the fabric in the shirts mid-section. We don't think dress shirts should be sewn with the same methods you would a structured garment. Women's shirts are a different story because womens shirts are often cut to fit very close to the body and there is often a desire to maximize the hour glass shape of a women's figure.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Allure de Star said:


> Rear Pleats are tiny folds of fabric that are sewn into the back of the shirt just under the yoke. The two most popular style of rear pleats are the center box pleat and rear side pleats (also known as knife pleats). The center box pleat is located in the center of the back of the shirt. Rear side pleats are usually a couple inches in from the outer edge of the shirt yoke, one on each side.
> 
> Either style of rear pleats usually adds about 1.5 inches of fabric to the shirts chest circumference and waist circumference. This extra fabric gives the wearer a little more room and can be more comfortable (especially if the wearer has a large midsection.
> 
> ...


Are you connected with Proper Cloth? If you are, I wonder if you or someone else there (Seph?) could answer my query about ordering "special" collar shapes. Thanks.


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

PJC in NoVa said:


> I hope Seph will let us know if they can handle tracings of collar outlines. I worry that just sending a few dimensions will not result in precise replication of the exact collar shape I want to reproduce.


Regarding custom collars, I don't think we'll be able to accept tracings of a collar (and the responsibility to copy it exactly). We're just not setup to do that efficiently. Probably the best we could do for a custom collar would be for me to email you a form or spreadsheet with all the options/parameters/pictures and then I'll leave it up to you to come up with the exact specs you'd like. Some things - especially spread width - might require a bit of subjective estimation on your part. (If anyone needs a measuring tape, they're available on https://propercloth.com)

Same goes for custom cuffs. Lots is possible, but I'll need your help to clearly define what is desired.

Note that we've never really done this before, so we'll be figuring it out as we go.


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

Allure de Star said:


> Rear Pleats are tiny folds of fabric that are sewn into the back of the shirt just under the yoke. The two most popular style of rear pleats are the center box pleat and rear side pleats (also known as knife pleats). The center box pleat is located in the center of the back of the shirt. Rear side pleats are usually a couple inches in from the outer edge of the shirt yoke, one on each side.
> 
> Either style of rear pleats usually adds about 1.5 inches of fabric to the shirts chest circumference and waist circumference. This extra fabric gives the wearer a little more room and can be more comfortable (especially if the wearer has a large midsection.
> 
> ...


Just a note on this - we changed our system this summer - so we no longer add/remove rear pleats to adjust the chest width. By default, all proper cloth shirts do not have rear pleats. I'll have to find where that was posted and update it.


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

Jovan said:


> More options would be great all around. Back pleat, placket, and interlining options should be a priority IMO.
> 
> Be great if you could actually replicate the "Polo" collar with no lining -- the way it used to be. I read on the site that Bill Sand is a veteran of Brooks Brothers. However, it would need a beefy oxford cloth to be right. Could you also do a six button front if requested?


Yes, all this is possible via special request. Just let me know what you need


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## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

Allure de Star said:


> Either style of rear pleats usually adds about 1.5 inches of fabric to the shirts chest circumference and waist circumference. This extra fabric gives the wearer a little more room and can be more comfortable (especially if the wearer has a large midsection.
> 
> .


I guess you have never looked at a flat pattern before.

on side back pleats, the pattern is extended anywhere from 1/2"-1" on each side at the top of the yoke/back/sleeve joining point. the back pattern is then gently curved downwards into the armhole

the tucks are no usually 1/4"-1/2" double. 
this does not effect the chest or waist measurement at all.
it simply allows a little more fullness across the back for movement.

Carl


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

ProperCloth said:


> Yes, all this is possible via special request. Just let me know what you need


I specifically meant having it on the shirt customising tool for ease of use, but thanks.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

ProperCloth said:


> Yes, all this is possible via special request. Just let me know what you need


When will MOP buttons be an option? The plastic buttons are holding me back.....


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## Spats (Dec 3, 2008)

*shirts and darts*



Allure de Star said:


> It's a matter of opinion, but we don't think rear-darts belong on men's shirts... Women's shirts are a different story because womens shirts are often cut to fit very close to the body and there is often a desire to maximize the hour glass shape of a women's figure.


 Also to maximize the hourglass figure as seen on SF...:devil:


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> When will MOP buttons be an option? The plastic buttons are holding me back.....


I recently received my second Proper Cloth shirt, on which I opted to get the thick MoP buttons (referred to as the Borrelli Buttons). I don't think these options have been integrated to the site yet, but they are available if you want them on your shirt.

There have been some kinks - the shirt arrived with the normal plastic buttons first, but I was provided a shipping label, and received it back with the proper buttons in a week or so with the right buttons. I think once they work the new button options into the normal assembly process there will probably be a simple option on the site.

Despite the issues, the customer service has been quick and outstanding. The thick MoP buttons are maybe 1 hair less beautiful than my Borrelli buttons, but it's very close. I didn't get out a ruler, but they are pretty close to the same size.

Hopefully the folks at Proper Cloth don't mind me sharing the information they sent me. They offer 4 different button types - Normal (plastic), Trocha ($10), Mother of Pearl ($15), and Tall Mother of Pearl ($25).

Standard, Trocha
















MoP, Tall MoP
















Next I look forward to ordering a shirt with a longer collar, as the 2.5" collar points are a little shorter than I generally prefer.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

flatline said:


> I recently received my second Proper Cloth shirt, on which I opted to get the thick MoP buttons (referred to as the Borrelli Buttons). I don't think these options have been integrated to the site yet, but they are available if you want them on your shirt.
> 
> There have been some kinks - the shirt arrived with the normal plastic buttons first, but I was provided a shipping label, and received it back with the proper buttons in a week or so with the right buttons. I think once they work the new button options into the normal assembly process there will probably be a simple option on the site.
> 
> ...


Very helpful....thank you.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

I was going to complain about the prices, because for some reason I was thinking that their basic fabrics started at $80 before and jumped up to $89 in just a few months. However, I just looked back through old threads and emails and it looks like $90 was always the base price. So I guess the $89 price is actually a slight lowering (although when I ordered my white oxford last month it was only $85). 

That being said, 120ish for a shirt made to my measurements with Borrelli-sized buttons, manufactured in the USA, seems like a pretty fair deal to me.

Someone else please order a shirt and post about it so it doesn't look like I'm shilling for these guys?


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

Happy Holidays! We have new stuff to share! (finally)

NEW BUTTONS
The button options are now integrated into the create a shirt tool. This includes the various MoP and shell options Flatline shared above. It was kind of tricky getting this integrated into the shirt preview image, but I think it came out pretty good. The Tall MoP is sourced from Italy (same supplier used by Borelli). They are very substantial. Note that if these are selected, the top button will be a standard thickness MoP button. The standard MoP and Troca shell are also very pretty.

We also included a variety of colored button options. These are plastic buttons so there's no extra charge. I'm excited to see what styles folks come up with that use this new design freedom.

NEW FABRICS
We've been steadily adding more fabrics on the high end the last couple months. We recently added two dark Thomas Mason Tattersalls, as well as four solid color 140s Sea Island Cottons. These are very, very nice. I highly recommend them for the connoisseurs. 

COMING UP
Expect more fabrics in the mid-range (80s and 100s two-ply) and more collar options.

Thanks again for your suggestions and please keep the feedback coming!


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## ShaneSmith (Nov 25, 2009)

I have ordered 1 pinpoint blue from you, it is my first order and should be shipping soon. I'll report back how it comes in. I was wondering if you will be having any more Royal oxfords that are not treated with easycare?


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## AdamsSutherland (Jan 22, 2008)

So what exactly would it take to get an unlined, full length/roll, brooks brothers collar on these shirts?


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

@AdamsSutherland - We'll need to make it a special order - just need to sort out the specifics. Please email me to discuss. 

@ShaneSmith - We're working on getting more Royal Oxfords - probably mid-late January they will be live.


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## ProperCloth (Nov 5, 2008)

One more thing! We're doing a year end sale: 10% off any order with code "2009".


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## ShaneSmith (Nov 25, 2009)

Shirt came in today, here are my notes on it. Bear in my the only other shirts i have are BB slim fit and Polo classic fit.

Fabric: As soft as Polo classic fit, not quite as soft as BB supima cotton. I ordered the blue pinpoint fabric.
Fit: Very slim fit, i made a mistake on my measurements and will have my first time free alterations done to fix this. In the upper body fits very snug, but i ordered the shirt too short.
Construction: Seems sturdy, time will tell. I have already recieved a compliment on the shirt.

With the alterations this should be a great shirt. I would recommend trying them out.


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## ShaneSmith (Nov 25, 2009)

Alterations done, this shirt is fantastic. I cannot recommend them enough. its strange going back to wearing my BB shirts now that i have these, which fit so well. Everything else feels sloppy now.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

Glad to see that Proper Cloth continues to listen to its customers and hasn't stopped adding new fabrics or options. Still waiting for longer collar points though!


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

I like Propercloth better than the overseas MTM shirt guys. The construction just seems better. Can't put my finger on anything concrete in regards to the stitching, but the fused parts are definitely better. No bubbling, looks more consistent.

edit: haven't tried Nialma yet, but am not particularly tempted to drop $400 for their deal.


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## ShaneSmith (Nov 25, 2009)

Flatline, not sure if this helps. I ordered the point collar and it's a substantial collar... Any longer might look odd. FWIW.


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## flatline (Dec 22, 2008)

ShaneSmith said:


> Flatline, not sure if this helps. I ordered the point collar and it's a substantial collar... Any longer might look odd. FWIW.


Hmmm... I have 2 PC shirts, one with the Point and one in their "English Spread". I prefer the Spread collar, but on both the collar points are something like 2.5". From what I can tell this is a little more "in fashion" right now, but I prefer something more like 3" (yes, .5" can make a substantial difference). I'm actually having trouble because one of my collar stays that came with the shirt has disappeared, and almost all of my other collar stays are too long for the PC shirts.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

I have it from Seph Skerritt that he'll copy any collar you care to send him. So if you want longer points, either send him a shirt with such a collar, or draw an outline of what you want and he'll make it so.

Haven't gotten around to it yet, but I've been planning to send him one of my rounded pinhole collars to copy. I have a long-point pinhole I should have him trace as well.


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## jjskywlker (Dec 9, 2009)

So what are all of your thoughts on the available fabrics? Before I discovered these forums, most all of my shirts were Brooks Brothers non-iron slim fits that I had tailored, which are all going to be replaced over time. 

So far, I've gotten the 80's pinpoint in white, and just ordered a 100's light blue broadcloth. 

The other fabrics/shirts I'm considering for future purchases include a white or ivory 100's two ply twill Egyptian cotton from Europe, and a pink royal oxford 80's.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

jjskywlker said:


> So what are all of your thoughts on the available fabrics? Before I discovered these forums, most all of my shirts were Brooks Brothers non-iron slim fits that I had tailored, which are all going to be replaced over time.
> 
> So far, I've gotten the 80's pinpoint in white, and just ordered a 100's light blue broadcloth.
> 
> The other fabrics/shirts I'm considering for future purchases include a white or ivory 100's two ply twill Egyptian cotton from Europe, and a pink royal oxford 80's.


You get what you pay for. Haven't been able to find a better deal for the quality either. Well, not at regular prices.

That said, Nordstrom MTM shirts might be a better value. Don't know yet, but I've read some threads suggesting this might be the case. Plan to find out more when I visit the mall next.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I would really like them to have more basic fabrics. What happened to the must-iron broadcloth and royal oxford?


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## Jeorge345 (Jul 16, 2009)

Two hundred stitches per buttonhole?!


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## harvey_birdman (Mar 10, 2008)

Is Propercloth no longer made in the USA? No mention on the website. I have two of their shirts from early 2010 and am very happy with them. Looking to order some more but not if they are made overseas.

Anyone have any info on this?


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## jjskywlker (Dec 9, 2009)

They are now made in Malaysia. Facebook exchange below.

https://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20101107/SMALLBIZ/311079998

JJSkywlker: Based on this article, are the shirts no longer being made in the USA? I couldn't find anything in the website regarding them being handmade by nice American's anymore either.

Proper Cloth: @JJSkywlker - yeah - we're making everything offshore now. It was a tough choice, but it lets us use nicer fabrics throughout and promise a faster delivery time. Of course we still have nice Americans doing all the design and customer service here


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Eh. I wouldn't mind paying a little more and waiting a little longer for something made in the USA. It would be nice if the website said anything about where they're made now, too.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Make sure you go to their site through the banner on AskAndy

Here's some details on the shirts I got:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/f...d.php?t=103321

And some of many other Member's praises for the quality of ProperCloth Shirts:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1058683
https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1073899


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## N.O.Joe (Jul 31, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Eh. I wouldn't mind paying a little more and waiting a little longer for something made in the USA. It would be nice if the website said anything about where they're made now, too.


I agree. "Made In America" was the selling point to me. I just ordered a shirt about a day or so ago. I'm glad it wasn't the 3 like I had originally intended. I suppose it was fun while it lasted. Malaysia? Geez, I'm glad I read this post.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Bummer. Well, I'll probably order a shirt and see how good the new construction is.


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## harvey_birdman (Mar 10, 2008)

N.O.Joe said:


> I agree. "Made In America" was the selling point to me. I just ordered a shirt about a day or so ago. I'm glad it wasn't the 3 like I had originally intended. I suppose it was fun while it lasted. Malaysia? Geez, I'm glad I read this post.


x2. I am willing to pay a reasonable premium for Made in the USA. I am willing to wait for delivery. This seems like an unwise decision, what is to separate Propercloth from any of the dozens of other Asian MTM shirtmakers now?

Anyone aware of any alternatives for online MTM in America, Canada, or Europe?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Andy: Sure, but I wonder how the construction now compares to when they were made in the USA. All those reviews are from before they switched to Malaysian shirt makers.

It's not a _total_ deal breaker for me. I have a custom shirt from Hong Kong that is comparable in quality to a Brooks Brothers Luxury at a fraction of the price. However, I also share the sentiment of supporting the American economy and helping shirt makers in this country stay employed. Many of them are struggling to get work. Brooks Brothers, despite that lengthy video on how they're bringing back American-made shirts, still only makes a very small portion of them in that little workshop.

I mean this as no disrespect to Mr. Skeritt or the rest of the company. He's a really nice guy and I've enjoyed my exchanges with him. However, I hope they reconsider this in the future. I also hope the new shirts are at least as good as the American made ones since the prices have stayed the same.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

harvey_birdman said:


> x2. I am willing to pay a reasonable premium for Made in the USA. I am willing to wait for delivery. This seems like an unwise decision, what is to separate Propercloth from any of the dozens of other Asian MTM shirtmakers now?
> 
> Anyone aware of any alternatives for online MTM in America, Canada, or Europe?


Just Tony the Tailor.

edit: Just wanted to add that PC's prices seem to reflect the new move. However, the range of available fabrics is nowhere close to what it used to be. But I agree, saving 10% just doesn't seem worth it to me as a consumer. Unless I get the exact same product.


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## 46L (Jan 8, 2009)

I believe Hamilton Shirts are still made in the USA. 
https://www.hamiltonshirts.com/


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

They are, but they also start at $245. The great thing was that Proper Cloth was made in the States AND within the price range of more people.


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## N.O.Joe (Jul 31, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Andy: Sure, but I wonder how the construction now compares to when they were made in the USA. All those reviews are from before they switched to Malaysian shirt makers.
> 
> It's not a _total_ deal breaker for me. I have a custom shirt from Hong Kong that is comparable in quality to a Brooks Brothers Luxury at a fraction of the price. However, I also share the sentiment of supporting the American economy and helping shirt makers in this country stay employed. Many of them are struggling to get work. Brooks Brothers, despite that lengthy video on how they're bringing back American-made shirts, still only makes a very small portion of them in that little workshop.
> 
> I mean this as no disrespect to Mr. Skeritt or the rest of the company. He's a really nice guy and I've enjoyed my exchanges with him. However, I hope they reconsider this in the future. I also hope the new shirts are at least as good as the American made ones since the prices have stayed the same.


I too enjoyed dealing with Mr. Skeritt. He was always helpful and accommodating. My position on "American-Made," when applicable, has all but become a religion for me, though. I look at where a product/item is made and proceed accordingly. I never had much of an issue with the amount of time it took to make my shirts nor the price, after all they were made for me in the fabric of my choosing. I would very much like to urge a reconsideration of this current decision. I'm also glad to know that I share some common sentiments with regards to the place of manufacturing of these types of goods.


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