# Adding vibram to leather soles: cardinal sin?



## bmoney (Mar 27, 2007)

I have several pairs of AE's, Del Ray, Slayton, and just received my pair of Melrose. I live in Alaska, where there is snow and a prolonged and sloppy breakup season that includes liberal salting of anything icy. I have the local shoe repair guru put a vibram coating on the leather sole of my AE's. The vibram coating isn't visible on the sides of the shoes, but it does provide traction and locks moisture out. From my perspective, this is the best of both worlds/soles. What do you guys think?


----------



## upnorth (Jun 18, 2007)

I highly encourage that especially for practical reasons. Not everyone walks the red carpet all the time.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I think you did the smart thing. While not all of my shoes are equipped with Topys, I have done so with a couple of pair to, as your post suggests, improve my footing as such becomes necessary. I also wear Tingleys overshoes, when such becomes necessary to protect my shoes from the slush.


----------



## Corcovado (Nov 24, 2007)

bmoney said:


> I have several pairs of AE's, Del Ray, Slayton, and just received my pair of Melrose. I live in Alaska, where there is snow and a prolonged and sloppy breakup season that includes liberal salting of anything icy. I have the local shoe repair guru put a vibram coating on the leather sole of my AE's. The vibram coating isn't visible on the sides of the shoes, but it does provide traction and locks moisture out. From my perspective, this is the best of both worlds/soles. What do you guys think?


I agree.


----------



## Packard (Apr 24, 2009)

If I understand your post you added the Vibram soles to the leather soles. Is that correct?

I went a slightly differrent route. I had Vibram (full soles) replace the leather soles on my boots.

When they do this they sew a thin layer of flat Vibram rubber to the welt, then glue the lugged sole to that rubber. The bottom of the boot becomes fully waterproof. 

Add some mink oil and then polish and you have a reasonably waterproof winter boot.


----------



## sowilson (Jul 27, 2009)

There are a couple of ways of doing this. I had the leather soles on a pair of J&M boots (Ebay specials) replaced with a full Vibram sole. There are two that are often used; the mini lug (style 230 IIRC) and the style 430. I had style 430 soles (and corresponding heal) put on my boots and they are fantastic. From the side you can't tell that they are lug soles but trudging through the snow you can sure tell. My local cobbler charged me $70 for the service. There are also 1/2 sole options one can choose but they wouldn't be as weather resistant as going with full soles.


----------



## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

I have a pair of thirteen-year-old shell cordovan AEs in which I have walked at least ten thousand miles, maybe twelve thousand. The leather soles have never needed replacing because I had Vibram sole protectors added. I have only needed to replace the Vibram a few times, at smaller cost than resoling and doing no violence to the welt.


----------



## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Better vibram than dead.

Don't sacrifice health for vanity.


----------



## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

I apply a thin layer of clear silicon (GE silicon II) or silicon derivative (GOOP) evenly on sole and heal and extend up the welt and over slightly. When dry it is about 1 mm thick but will last a long time and can be easily repaired at home. Cheap too- A tube of silicon is about $5 and will do about 2 shoes.

Silicon and derivatives have no equivalent when it comes to traction and slip resistance on snow and ice (used in all winter tires now) . The added bonus is that it causes no damage to leather and does not alter the look of the shoes. Best of all worlds. Especially if you use GOOP it is completely reversible also.


----------



## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

Xenon said:


> I apply a thin layer of clear silicon (GE silicon II) or silicon derivative (GOOP) evenly on sole and heal and extend up the welt and over slightly. When dry it is about 1 mm thick but will last a long time and can be easily repaired at home. Cheap too- A tube of silicon is about $5 and will do about 2 shoes.
> 
> Silicon and derivatives have no equivalent when it comes to traction and slip resistance on snow and ice (used in all winter tires now) . The added bonus is that it causes no damage to leather and does not alter the look of the shoes. Best of all worlds. Especially if you use GOOP it is completely reversible also.


Fascinating. Thank you for this....


----------



## norton (Dec 18, 2008)

I just took a pair of brand new never worn Alden cordovan longwings into the shoe repair shop for non slip vibram half soles and heels. I don't do this with all my shoes but I like to have a few pair to wear in sloppy weather.


----------



## techchallenge (May 30, 2008)

Xenon said:


> I apply a thin layer of clear silicon (GE silicon II) or silicon derivative (GOOP) evenly on sole and heal and extend up the welt and over slightly. When dry it is about 1 mm thick but will last a long time and can be easily repaired at home. Cheap too- A tube of silicon is about $5 and will do about 2 shoes.
> 
> Silicon and derivatives have no equivalent when it comes to traction and slip resistance on snow and ice (used in all winter tires now) . The added bonus is that it causes no damage to leather and does not alter the look of the shoes. Best of all worlds. Especially if you use GOOP it is completely reversible also.


Agreed that this is fascinating. What exactly is your method to apply evenly?
A putty knife?


----------



## Tbone (Oct 31, 2009)

techchallenge said:


> Agreed that this is fascinating. What exactly is your method to apply evenly?
> A putty knife?


And how is it reversible? The product description says it needs to be cut away, and I imagine this may be difficult without damaging the sole a bit. Do you use the "sport" GOOP?


----------



## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

bmoney said:


> I have several pairs of AE's, Del Ray, Slayton, and just received my pair of Melrose. I live in Alaska, where there is snow and a prolonged and sloppy breakup season that includes liberal salting of anything icy. I have the local shoe repair guru put a vibram coating on the leather sole of my AE's. The vibram coating isn't visible on the sides of the shoes, but it does provide traction and locks moisture out. From my perspective, this is the best of both worlds/soles. What do you guys think?


Given you are in Alaska, this sounds reasonable. But I would have just bought a couple of commando or golf-style rubber soled dress shoes (which is what I've done - I have 5 AE's with commando half-soles - 3 pairs of Cornells and 2 pairs of Dellwoods, but both are now discontinued, as well as some with the golf-style rubber sole - a couple of Tauntons).

I think the Easton is a current model that uses the half-commando sole.


----------



## oroy38 (Nov 11, 2009)

I think this is a great idea. Being a university student, I don't wear dress shoes all that often but I do wear some C&J Tetbury's regularly in the winter here in Erie, PA and they have the rubber dainite sole. If you're ever looking to have a rubber soled shoe without the looks of commando sole, I highly recommend the dainite studded sole. You can't tell it's a rubber sole until you actually look at the bottom of the shoe, and they grip brilliantly during the winter months when sidewalks are a bit icy.

For truly bad days, I have a set of 10" leather combat boots from Corcoran with a vibram commando sole that are brilliant. They may not be the most stylish boots, but when the snow is deep and the sidewalks are slick, I care more about not falling and cracking my skull open rather than looking stylish!


----------



## Avers (Feb 28, 2006)

How much does it cost to add such layer to the shoes?


----------



## sowilson (Jul 27, 2009)

Avers said:


> How much does it cost to add such layer to the shoes?


If you mean Vibram half soles and heels that should be around $40-$50, full soles will be around $70-80. There are a number of sole/heel options you can choose from the full blown lug soles (like on hiking boots), to the mini-lug (can still see lugs from the side but not too noticeable), style 430 (used on service shoes, has lugs, but can't see the lugs from the side), and then down to lightly ribbed soles (not much traction in snow). Check out the Vibram web site and download their repair catalog - lots of good stuff. The Dainite soles are ~$150 IIRC.


----------



## Packard (Apr 24, 2009)

sowilson said:


> If you mean Vibram half soles and heels that should be around $40-$50, full soles will be around $70-80. There are a number of sole/heel options you can choose from the full blown lug soles (like on hiking boots), to the mini-lug (can still see lugs from the side but not too noticeable), style 430 (used on service shoes, has lugs, but can't see the lugs from the side), and then down to lightly ribbed soles (not much traction in snow). Check out the Vibram web site and download their repair catalog - lots of good stuff. The Dainite soles are ~$150 IIRC.


My shoe maker just put full soles and heels (Vibram) for $60.00. Ask before having the work done. It should come somewhere between $50.00 and $75.00 total.


----------



## harvey_birdman (Mar 10, 2008)

Xenon said:


> I apply a thin layer of clear silicon (GE silicon II) or silicon derivative (GOOP) evenly on sole and heal and extend up the welt and over slightly. When dry it is about 1 mm thick but will last a long time and can be easily repaired at home. Cheap too- A tube of silicon is about $5 and will do about 2 shoes.
> 
> Silicon and derivatives have no equivalent when it comes to traction and slip resistance on snow and ice (used in all winter tires now) . The added bonus is that it causes no damage to leather and does not alter the look of the shoes. Best of all worlds. Especially if you use GOOP it is completely reversible also.


I am intrigued. Could you post some pictures of this?


----------



## bmoney (Mar 27, 2007)

*of course*

Yes, I'll post some pics when I get them. My vibram soles cost $30 and are available for pickup this Monday. They are half-soles, I think, but the heel is rubber and that leaves only a very small raised part exposed.


----------



## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

Techchallenge, you can use a putty knife, metal spatula or any thin flexible tool you are comfortable with. I mostly use Shoe GOOP and the flow characteristics are fairly good at room temp. When you want to smooth more forcefully especially around the welt dip the tool in water and to finish off on the last strokes use a bit of Varsol (any mineral spirit or paint thinner but not lacquer thinner). Use tap around the welt to protect the upper if trying this for the first time. 

Tbone, it is reversible especially with Shoe GOOP since if you wear the treated shoe everyday the layer will peel of by itself after about a year (its easy to remove what hasn't fallen off and start over again). In fact if you don't clean the sole properly prior to applying it will peel off the minute you walk on it. As such I would describe the bond created as good but by no means permanent - this is not shoe cement and will by no means outlast a properly installed Vibram (or other) sole. I believe (don't know for sure) the reason the bond eventually fails with leather is the fact that the leather absorbs moisture from your feet. The constant impact of walking may also degrade low strength adhesives. 

My main goal was to find a way to use my leather soled shoes I love and find elegant (for business and casual) in any weather without changing their appearance or feel/comfort. This is about having the look and feel of leather and not worrying about damage. For others that do not care as much about appearance in bad weather than my method is useless. In fact I personally do not like subjecting my leather soled shoes/boots to outside wear with all the pebbles, dirt, mud you find in my area all year round (continuous construction downtown and I walk a lot). 

I have been thinking about this for a long time and have searched far and wide for elegant all weather footwear. The word "elegant" completely rules out 90% of all footwear for me. The other 10% are made up of either cheaply made footwear or very nice footwear that would still look way better with a leather sole. For instance you could order a G&G with the rubber sole but I could not personally justify not choosing the much nicer looking leather sole instead - no matter what.

In any regards I am in the process of applying my technique to some new shoes within the next week (Santonis, Cannalis, ect ) and will post pictures of the result. I am currently wearing a pair of old cowboy boots (20 years old) that I tested this out with. I will post a pic but please no laughing- I love super pointy :icon_smile:cowboy boots and they help protect my pant bottoms (yes I tuck the pants in the boots :icon_smile_big. I actually have to sneak out of the house in the morning so that my wife does not notice those boots!


----------



## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

well-kept said:


> I have a pair of thirteen-year-old shell cordovan AEs in which I have walked at least ten thousand miles, maybe twelve thousand. The leather soles have never needed replacing because I had Vibram sole protectors added. I have only needed to replace the Vibram a few times, at smaller cost than resoling and doing no violence to the welt.


Perfectly stated. I have Vibram toppies put on all of my dress shoes for this reason. The aesthetic trade-off is slight.


----------



## Packard (Apr 24, 2009)

The Louche said:


> Perfectly stated. I have Vibram toppies put on all of my dress shoes for this reason. The aesthetic trade-off is slight.


I've never heard of nor seen anything called a Vibram Toppie. Here is the Vibram (USA) website: https://www.vibram.us/products/products.asp?Product=Lifestyle#

Which item are you referring to?


----------



## KennethB (Jul 29, 2009)

Packard said:


> I've never heard of nor seen anything called a Vibram Toppie. Here is the Vibram (USA) website: https://www.vibram.us/products/products.asp?Product=Lifestyle#
> 
> Which item are you referring to?


https://www.vibram.us/repair/repair.asp?Product=HalfSoles

Maybe?


----------



## Packard (Apr 24, 2009)

KennethB said:


> https://www.vibram.us/repair/repair.asp?Product=HalfSoles
> 
> Maybe?


I don't think so. Perhaps it is the: #7673 Pro Tania Protective Half Sole


----------



## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

The most popular Vibram sole guard for men's dress shoes is the #2337.
https://www.vibram.us/repair/repair.asp?Product=HalfSoles#

https://www.vibram.us/repair/repair.asp?Product=HalfSoles# #2337 Men's Richard Unbuffed Half Sole

Sizes: 
47/50 (Large)

Dimensions:
4 iron

Colors: 
Neutral

It's imported from Italy.


----------



## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

Packard said:


> I've never heard of nor seen anything called a Vibram Toppie. Here is the Vibram (USA) website: https://www.vibram.us/products/products.asp?Product=Lifestyle#
> 
> Which item are you referring to?


I used "toppies" with a lowercase "t." The word toppy in my mind is generic and reffers to any thin sole applique intended to prevent wear to the original leather sole. There are a few brands out there including Vibram and a brand actually called Toppy. I'm not sure which specific model my cobbler uses, but I always specify that I want Vibram branded "toppies." In my experience, Vibram's material is much more durable than others. It wears like iron IMO, lasting 4-5 times as long as even quality leather soles.


----------



## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

*Update*

Coincidentally, I got a call last night from Allen Edmonds customer service RE: a pair of shoes that I sent in for examination. The shoes had developed a hole at the top of the heel counter (L shoe) and a hole in the lining at the base of the heel (R shoe). Read a bit more here.

A customer service rep had contacted me after reading the thread linked-to above. The rep offered to examine the shoes, and repair them gratis if the excessive wear was due to a manufacturing/materials fault. When the rep called me back last night she explained that the wear was caused by my use of toppies. She said that the toppies had made the shoes less flexible than is ideal, and it had contributed to both examples of excessive wear. They are going to patch the heel counters/lining of both shoes, but I am paying $25 for the service.

This may have been a bunch of BS b/c I've been using toppies for years and never had this problem before, but I don't think AE would have gone through the trouble and expense (they picked-up the shipping) of all this if they were simply planning to feed me a line.

So, long story short, maybe there is some merit to the argument that toppies are a bad idea. Even if there is, however, I'll contine to use the religously. Any detriment seems to be well worth the trade off in sole durability and long-term maintenance costs.


----------



## norton (Dec 18, 2008)

Coincidentally, today is the first day I've worn my brand new alden shell longwings to work. As you can see, they've been appropriately winterized for the ice and snow.


----------



## BearBear (Jan 29, 2010)

Xenon, any updates on using the GOOP or silicone for your leather soles? I would love to see pictures/video of the process - how to do it, the final look, etc...I think others would as well.


----------



## Centaur (Feb 2, 2010)

*Commando soles*



bmoney said:


> I have several pairs of AE's, Del Ray, Slayton, and just received my pair of Melrose. I live in Alaska, where there is snow and a prolonged and sloppy breakup season that includes liberal salting of anything icy. I have the local shoe repair guru put a vibram coating on the leather sole of my AE's. The vibram coating isn't visible on the sides of the shoes, but it does provide traction and locks moisture out. From my perspective, this is the best of both worlds/soles. What do you guys think?


In England we call Vibram soles Commando soles, being deeply cleated field-type (if not out-and-out mountaineering) rubber soles. However, having read some of the other postings I'm not entirely sure that is what you mean - I hope to God it isn't. I have some Trickers Commando-soled shoes, and while they keep you upright in icy weather (which I appreciate may be more of a consideration in Alaska than in England) when shooting or when walking to the pub across muddy fields, they have some highly unpleasant drawbacks, and I would like to take this opportunity to issue a general warning against the wearing of all Commando-soled footwear.
1. Such shoes retain quite surprising quantities of snow and slush, which then melts into the carpets of one's Bentley, or one's Persian rugs when one steps indoors;
2. small stones and gravel can become lodged between the cleats; this then gouges any highly polished mahogany, marble or ceramic flooring surfaces one walks on;
3. the channels become choked with mud, which then laboriously has to be cleaned out;
4. if, instead of snow, slush or mud, you have had the double misfortune to have walked in dog doo-dah, camel dung or any other form of animal excrement, God help you!


----------



## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

^ The particular Vibram product they're talking about is quite thin. The results look like the photo in Norton's post--I mean the ball portion, not the heel. No 'commando lugs.' Another manufacturer, Topy, has a similar product. (EDIT Actually I think what's in norton's photo is Topy but Vibram is the same idea.)


----------



## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

As another example to the shoe Goo route, I played baseball in college and continue to now. As a pitcher I can wear out the toe of my drag foot in 1 season without much effort. I have for years used shoe Goo to create a protective toe for my cleats so it can take the abuse and not wear through my shoe. Shoe Goo goes on relatively smooth all on its own at room temperature, after I put it on and it dries its difficult to see on my cleats unless your up close. I can imagine it would work quite well on leather soles, and it would probably peel off pretty easily. Might heat it up with a hair dryer and it would probably come off pretty easily. I'm actually thinking of giving it a try as I have some shoe goo laying around.


----------



## BearBear (Jan 29, 2010)

dwebber - I remember the pitcher's using that all the time on the foot they used to push off the mound. If you try it on your soles, please post and let us know how it turns out. I am definitely interested!


----------



## emptym (Feb 22, 2008)

Xenon said:


> I apply a thin layer of clear silicon (GE silicon II) or silicon derivative (GOOP) evenly on sole and heal and extend up the welt and over slightly. When dry it is about 1 mm thick but will last a long time and can be easily repaired at home. Cheap too- A tube of silicon is about $5 and will do about 2 shoes.
> 
> Silicon and derivatives have no equivalent when it comes to traction and slip resistance on snow and ice (used in all winter tires now) . The added bonus is that it causes no damage to leather and does not alter the look of the shoes. Best of all worlds. Especially if you use GOOP it is completely reversible also.





BearBear said:


> Xenon, any updates on using the GOOP or silicone for your leather soles? I would love to see pictures/video of the process - how to do it, the final look, etc...I think others would as well.


Aiyiyi! I tried the GE silicone II on a pair of leather-soled shoes and had terrible results in two ways. First, it took a long time for the silicone to dry/cure. I'd say a week or more. I let the shoes rest for about a month, for good measure. Second, when I wore them today for the first time, the silicone flaked off almost immediately. The remaining flakes were slippery, so I abraded the rest off on a sidewalk. Took a couple blocks of walking/sliding.

Are you sure you've tried this w/ the GE silicone, Xenox?
Has anyone tried it w/ the GOOP?


----------



## bmoney (Mar 27, 2007)

*yo*

Here is my latest pair of Vibram AE's...The shoe guy does an excellent job of mating the topper to the sole smoothly without defect.

https://img39.imageshack.us/i/dscn0264h.jpg/


----------



## Turbine 205 (Feb 8, 2010)

*Controversial?*

Looks like I'm on my own here but I think the whole point in having a leather sole is to allow the shoe (and your foot) to breath. By adding a rubber/plastic/silicon layer to the sole you are negating this effect and the dampness on the inside of the shoe is never allowed to escape properly. Also if the rubber 'toppy' is not fitted _perfectly_ then there is a chance water will get underneath where it will become trapped rotting the leather. I would suggest wearing storm welted double soled boots or boots with rubber soles if the weather looks like it's going to be bad - and leave the dress shoes for better weather. An alternative is galoshes which can be removed once you have removed yourself from the puddle you are standing in.


----------



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Because of this forum I've recently a) had vibram half-soles applied to a pair of AE Delrays and b) purchased a pair of Tingley's. It's clear that the galoshes are the best solution to bad weather, but the reality is that I can't always predict the weather and often have to deal with situations where it's not raining but the sidewalk's nonetheless wet. And I can't always have the Tingley's on hand. So I'm convinced that sometimes adding a rubber layer is the best solution. Besides, if it saves me from having to send my shoes to AE to get recrafted, perhaps it's a better investment?


----------



## bmoney (Mar 27, 2007)

*yo*

Where I live, inclement weather is a virtual certainty. Galoshes tend to end up getting salt/snow melt on the leather during the put on and take off process - so the vibram soles seem to be a least bad solution for me.


----------



## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

emptym said:


> Aiyiyi! I tried the GE silicone II on a pair of leather-soled shoes and had terrible results in two ways. First, it took a long time for the silicone to dry/cure. I'd say a week or more. I let the shoes rest for about a month, for good measure. Second, when I wore them today for the first time, the silicone flaked off almost immediately. The remaining flakes were slippery, so I abraded the rest off on a sidewalk. Took a couple blocks of walking/sliding.
> 
> Are you sure you've tried this w/ the GE silicone, Xenox?
> Has anyone tried it w/ the GOOP?


emptym,

There should be a manufacture date on the tube of silicone caulking. This material has a definite shelf life on the order of just several months. After that time it will behave EXACTLY as you experienced. Many retailers don't realize this and just place the new box of silicone on the shelf in front of old boxes and it is very possible to find tubes that may be well over a year old. If you use fresh silicone caulking it should dry in less than a day and be extremely pliable and resistant to flaking or tearing.

I don't know a darn thing about fashion, but I have done home remodeling for quite a long time. 

Andy B.


----------



## emptym (Feb 22, 2008)

andy b. said:


> There should be a manufacture date on the tube of silicone caulking. This material has a definite shelf life on the order of just several months. After that time it will behave EXACTLY as you experienced...


Very interesting! Thanks, Andy. I just checked the tube, and it said "use by 04/10" so I'm guessing it was w/in the expiration date, but only barely. Thanks for the info.

Has anyone else tried the silicone gel or GOOP?


----------

