# Wing collars/four in hand ties



## helo-flyer (Nov 22, 2008)

I've been stalking this and several other menswear sites for a few months. The consensus seems to be that wing collars are for bow-ties only (a must for white tie, as well as an option for black tie). Personally I agree with the assessment based on the overall look of the ensembles. However, I can site several "aristocratic" gentlemen in both America, the UK, and Germany who wore wing collars with the four in hand (long) ties... I'm confused because people such as FDR, Bernhard Von Bulow, Cecil Rhodes, and Joseph Chamberlain all wore long ties with a wing collar. What is the precedent for such behavior? Is it the obvious faux pas that many see it as today, or was it somehow acceptable in the early part of the 20th Century...

Thanks for your help,
Robert


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I think it is fine myself with morning dress. The collar should be a stiff and high detachable collar. Nor does the collar need to be a winged collar. It can also be a straight up and down imperial collar:










Like a bow tie with morning dress, it is a bit old fashioned, so if done it should be done well.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I suppose it's fine for morning dress or historical costume. I don't think anyone has worn a wing collar with a four in hand tie in any other way for at least 50 years.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I suppose it's fine for morning dress or historical costume. I don't think anyone has worn a wing collar with a four in hand tie in any other way for at least 50 years.












Elton John in the classic wing collar and long tie combination...probably by Tommy Nutter.

*W_B*


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I suppose it's fine for morning dress or historical costume. I don't think anyone has worn a wing collar with a four in hand tie in any other way for at least 50 years.


Edited to add "or a stage costume." (Eye roll)


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Or maybe not. I can think of at least 3 places I worked where Elton John would come in and quite literally buy the collection twice every season.



whistle_blower71 said:


> Elton John in the classic wing collar and long tie combination...probably by Tommy Nutter.
> 
> *W_B*


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

It's not that uncommon to see winged collars worn at weddings with morning dress. They usually work best worn with an Ascot (not a day cravat but an Ascot). However, it is almost impossible to find proper self-tie Ascot these days. Mostly, when you see the term"Ascot" it is just an Americanism for a day cravat.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Sator said:


> It's not that uncommon to see winged collars worn at weddings with morning dress. They usually work best worn with an Ascot (not a day cravat but an Ascot). However, it is almost impossible to find proper self-tie Ascot these days. Mostly, when you see the term"Ascot" it is just an Americanism for a day cravat.


I have never seen a proper "tie yourself" formal cravat for sale in London. Most shops sell those awful pre-tied things.

*W_B*


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

David Reeves said:


> Or maybe not. I can think of at least 3 places I worked where Elton John would come in and quite literally buy the collection twice every season.


Still probably Tommy Nutter...

*W_B*


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

whistle_blower71 said:


> I have never seen a proper "tie yourself" formal cravat for sale in London. Most shops sell those awful pre-tied things.
> 
> *W_B*


One would really have to wear a good detachable collar, as stiff and as high as one's neck allows, with a bespoke Ascot (used in the British English sense to denote a dress cravat) to make it abundantly clear that it is not a cheap attached collar worn with a pre-tied disaster.

Whife and Bridgeland in the Modern Tailor Outfitter and Clothier, London, 1949 as well as Sydney Barnes, London 1951 state that a dress cravat/Ascot and winged collar shirt are considered correct for festive occasions.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Sator said:


> One would really have to wear a good detachable collar, as stiff and as high as one's neck allows, with a bespoke Ascot (used in the British English sense to denote a dress cravat) to make it abundantly clear that it is not a cheap attached collar worn with a pre-tied disaster.
> 
> Whife and Bridgeland in the Modern Tailor Outfitter and Clothier, London, 1949 as well as Sydney Barnes, London 1951 state that a dress cravat/Ascot and winged collar shirt are considered correct for festive occasions.


Where could one order a bespoke Ascot? Do you have any?
High, stiff collars are easy to find in London but have never found a proper cravat. Most Jermyn Street shops offer only the casual version.

*W_B *


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I wore a winged (attached) collar with FIH to my sister's graduation in morning dress (them were the days when I should have known better). When I looked at the photos I looked ridiculous. Of course, now that I know better I would do it properly with det collars et al. but I would rather stick with the turndown collar with FIH. It makes it look less 'costumey' and IMO it looks more dignified.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

whistle_blower71 said:


> Where could one order a bespoke Ascot? Do you have any?
> High, stiff collars are easy to find in London but have never found a proper cravat. Most Jermyn Street shops offer only the casual version.
> 
> *W_B *


I agree nobody makes Ascots any more, only day cravats (I am sure some American is going to give me a link to an American website offering "ascots" anyway ).

I managed to find a tiny description in Whife, London, 1949 of the dimensions of a proper Ascot, plus a picture suggesting a construction similar to a conventional tie (interlining with a plain lining for the back, different to the silk of the right side of the Ascot). I have sent this to David Hober, and he is considering offering them. Otherwise, there must be a bespoke tie maker in London who still remembers how to make them.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

TTBOMK, the last public person to wear a wing collar with a four-in-hand tie as everyday business dress was this fellow:



'Nuff said.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Chamberlain is wrongly maligned. He was only trying to do all he could to buy time for Britain to re-arm.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Here is Gary Cooper wearing a winged collar with four in hand:



Here, incidentally, is Eden wearing a winged collar and Ascot:


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## ke6wue (Feb 8, 2009)

*Wedding Ascot Help!*

Hi everyone. I've been lurking for a while, but this is my first post. I need some ascot-related help for my wedding.

We are having a daytime wedding (in Crestline, Southern California), where I will be wearing a cutaway, cashmere striped pants, a white shirt with 2" detachable winged collar, custom bal boots, spats, a grey MTM DB waistcoat, and a silk topper. I planned to pair everything with a traditional striped ascot. However, I have been unable to find anything in a grey/black/silver color scheme which is not an awful rental style abomination. I have looked at the usual recommended places (Ben Silver, Brooks Brothers, Beau Ties, Brioni, etc.) as well as every local men's shop that I have been able to find and have been unable to find anything -- even a bespoke option. I have a family member willing to make it for me, but finding appropriate material has proven equally difficult. I'm down to the wire (I have been looking for six months, and the wedding is on March 28th).

Does anyone have any idea where I could get a proper ascot/dress cravat made with appropriate materials, or recommend another appropriate ascot pattern. I do have Irish and Scottish blood and am considering a wool or silk ascot in one of my family tartans (Shepard, Cavin, Pomeroy and probably some others), but I do not know the appropriateness of this choice, or if it has any basis in tradition. Plain grey ascots are available on Amazon and other places, but seem a little plain (especially next to the Macclesfield, glen plaid and grey striped four-in-hand ties that all of the other involved men will be wearing, mismatched of course!).

Antongiavanni has a beautiful picture of an ascot in his Wedding Attire article here on AAAC. But, unless I am missing something, it is a Brioni which is no longer listed as part of their current production.

I am at a complete loss in regards to the striped ascot, and am a bit ignorant in regards to the appropriateness of the tartan ascot. Any advice on either issue would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Jeremy


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

ke6wue said:


> I have a family member willing to make it for me, but finding appropriate material has proven equally difficult. I'm down to the wire (I have been looking for six months, and the wedding is on March 28th).
> 
> Does anyone have any idea where I could get a proper ascot/dress cravat made with appropriate materials, or recommend another appropriate ascot pattern. I do have Irish and Scottish blood and am considering a wool or silk ascot in one of my family tartans (Shepard, Cavin, Pomeroy and probably some others), but I do not know the appropriateness of this choice, or if it has any basis in tradition. Plain grey ascots are available on Amazon and other places, but seem a little plain.


Those things you see on Amazon or anywhere else are not real Ascot ties at all. An "ascot" in American English is merely a "day cravat". Day cravats are not appropriate with formal morning dress. Unlike day cravats, a true Ascot tie/dress cravat has interlining to give it a formal structured appearance and is constructed more like a conventional tie.

I would approach David Hober (samhober.com) and ask him to make you one. I doubt he will have time to develop a pattern and then teach his workers to make one up. He also needs to experiment a little to rediscover how true Ascot ties are made, and how to draft a bespoke pattern for this purpose.

David does still have some nice silks. I believe he will at least sell you a length if necessary, along with some interlining. You could then get your relative to make it up for you, constructing it like a usual tie, but to the pattern of an Ascot tie:

You will need to make a trial pattern out of cheap cloth to get the dimensions right for you, and to determine how much silk you need. Try to find a vintage cravat pin, and choose a silk that you can get a pin through without destroying it.

As far as having a bespoke silk woven in your family tartan, it is a pretty expensive and time consuming exercise. I am sure it would be worthwhile. Don't ask me who takes bespoke silk orders though. I am sure David will know. Tell him that I sent you. He is very helpful and knowledgeable.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

ke6wue said:


> I planned to pair everything with a traditional striped ascot.


Ascot ties, BTW, need not be striped. Here are a couple of non-striped ones:


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## JordanH. (Jul 31, 2008)

Wow, those are some great pictures, Sator, especially the last one. For my uncle's wedding some years back, we wore morning dress. From what I remember, the coat was black and fit terribly, the pants were gray striped and I think too long, the waistcoat was light gray and pre-tied in the back, and the excuse for an ascot was gray with dots and pre-tied. Seeing those pictures today causes me embarrassment.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

Sator said:


> Those things you see on Amazon or anywhere else are not real Ascot ties at all. An "ascot" in American English is merely a "day cravat". Day cravats are not appropriate with formal morning dress. Unlike day cravats, a true Ascot tie/dress cravat has interlining to give it a formal structured appearance and is constructed more like a conventional tie.
> 
> I would approach David Hober (samhober.com) and ask him to make you one. I doubt he will have time to develop a pattern and then teach his workers to make one up. He also needs to experiment a little to rediscover how true Ascot ties are made, and how to draft a bespoke pattern for this purpose.
> 
> ...


*Sator,*

I love all your old reference sources.

Interestingly as long as the design is not unique as in a repeating pattern for example: "_Jim Gentleman's wedding_" which would typically have a cost that is not practical for small numbers. Small runs can be done.

The major cost is not exactly the weaving of the silk. It is the design work. It takes time to get even a simple pattern done correctly.

You have been inspiring me to offer formal neck wear and we will.

Once we catch up with our current back log of orders we will move forward to revive the old patterns and constructions.

Silk weaving will actually be starting for this project in the near future.

*

ke6wue,*

Congratulations on the upcoming wedding!

Time does not allow for us to make something for you.

Good luck with you search.


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## ke6wue (Feb 8, 2009)

*Thanks for your response!*

Sator,

All right, I'm a little bit confused. My understanding (and I know that this has been beaten to death in other ascot related forums) was that in British English to American English, Cravat=Ascot, and Day Cravat=Cravat. I will use British English from now on for clarity. I am well aware of the day cravat, and actually own one.

If I understand correctly, the main difference that you are suggesting between the two is that the cravat has a lining, whereas the day cravat does not. Is it also larger, or is the size the same as a day cravat?

I'm sorry for being a bit unclear: I know that Cravats have always come in patterns other than striped, but my understanding from the Antongiavanni article is that striped is the traditional choice for the groom on the day of his wedding, and should be in a black/grey/silver color scheme.

Here is one example of what I have found readily available in the cravat realm, available on Amazon. There is no indication regarding lining, and I would like to know your opinion -- the seller does claim that it is for formal wear.

I have also found a wool cravat here in a Shepherd plaid (check?), one of my family tartans.

I had planned to wear a vintage pink pearl tie tack that belonged to my grandfather as a stick pin, but I'm not sure if this is possible. Any thoughts on how that would work?

I will email David Hober, but his turn around time is 3 weeks for samples, with an 8 month or so backlog. The wedding is in three weeks, so I'm guessing that even getting fabric in time would be impossible.

Thanks for the help on this -- I have read many of your posts and am grateful to have you helping me to figure this out!

Jeremy


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## doublebucklemonk (Feb 15, 2009)

Not necessarily the style reference of the century, but I think I remember Andy Garcia's character wearing a white FIH with a wing collar in Ocean's Eleven.


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

doublebucklemonk said:


> Not necessarily the style reference of the century, but I think I remember Andy Garcia's character wearing a white FIH with a wing collar in Ocean's Eleven.


This picture reveals the full strange-ness of Andy Garcia's wardrobe in Ocean's 13:

It would seem to be a shawl collar jacket with white four-in-hand, what can only be an attached wing collar, and a green brocade DB vest with at least seven buttons on each side. Note also the pocket square and watch chain.

I would put it in the same lineage of ridiculous villain's clothing as Blofeld's Nehru jacket.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

amplifiedheat said:


> This picture reveals the full strange-ness of Andy Garcia's wardrobe in Ocean's 13:
> 
> It would seem to be a shawl collar jacket with white four-in-hand, what can only be an attached wing collar, and a green brocade DB vest with at least seven buttons on each side. Note also the pocket square and watch chain.
> 
> I would put it in the same lineage of ridiculous villain's clothing as Blofeld's Nehru jacket.


At least they didn't make Garcia hold a cat.


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## Art of Leadership (Sep 4, 2008)

doublebucklemonk said:


> Not necessarily the style reference of the century, but I think I remember Andy Garcia's character wearing a white FIH with a wing collar in Ocean's Eleven.


That style should be reserved for manservants, not gentlemen. It looks ridiculous.



amplifiedheat said:


> what can only be an attached wing collar,


Similar to those new fangled "como" wing collar shurtds that are cropping up at UK weddings, with FIH cravats. Not so distasteful, and probably trying to be stylish than formal. Still not appropriate.

As for the dimensions Sator gave from that publication. I would say they're a little over the mark on neckband height. 3" folded would be 1.5. I prefer it to be 1". Not 1.5 or even 2 or 2.5 as those attrocities perpetuated by Forzieri(if only they would lower the height). It should not take up the whole height of the collar.


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