# A modest proposal



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

This Christmas seems to have reached a point of critical mass by uncritisized forces. I speak of politically active christian groups and their opposite numbers clumsily dubbed secular humanists, or, to name names the ACLU and all the assorted Pat Robertsons, Falwells ad nauseum. The greeks had sense enough to observe a truce during the Olympics, and Christianity held this tradition in part right up to the famous Christmas truce of 1914 between british and german units. I'm in Borders Books , trying to spend American Express gift cards ( if you get these beasts, the cashier must type in the full number, security code and know the unspent value or they are rejected) standing in line. Sales clerks are walking it's length handing out cookies and candies. I say Merry Christmas to a chinese american who I know is a good Methodist. A second clerk, resplendant in deadlocks snarls shes a Pagan. I comment it must be a tough drive from Fillmore ( a sister community mostly of lemon groves.)" HUH? You just said you were paganos, greek for a person of the country, you know, rustica in latin? NOOOOOOOO! I'm a witch! Oh, wiccan, celtic,feraferian, eclectic, femme lesbian coven, solitairy or are you just struggling with some childhood angst over sunday school?"She moved on as I felt a tug. It was my laughing Chabbad Rabbi friend, and NO I forgot to ask where they buy the frock coats."So Chris, Merry Christmas to you and your family. Happy Channuka Rabbi." Safely in my car (but anything but safe in traffic) One avant garde radio station was actually playing Christmas music! Not the bitter political comments by KPFK, the BEATLES rare christmas 45 on 95.5 but the three chipmunks Christmas song followed by Silent Night in german. Now I knew my christmas was correct and complete.So to ACLU secular humanists, intelligent design evangelical bible thumpers, government officials and corporate executives passing out guidlines for PC 'Holiday Season' language while cowering under desks in unvented suits and off dimpled ties I say this- MERRY CHRISTMAS!Everyone say this out loud, with all the feeling of Jimmy Stewart running past the savings and loan building.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Merry Christmas from an Old-Earther, old-fashioned agnostic deist humanist... made me think of the South Park episode with Mr Garrison singing "Merry [email protected](%!#& Christmas" to all non-Christians! [8D] (Especially the part where he yanks the veils down).

-- l'homme-RJ


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

I couldn't have said it better myself...

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

*****
"When you wear lapels like the swellest of swells, you can pass any mirror and...
*smile*
...You've either got or you haven't got style!!!"​


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm an agnostic. I'd be an athiest but I feel this would require the same leap of faith it takes to be religious. I count myself as being truly "without knowledge." 

That aside, I love Xmas, wish people Merry Xmas all the time. It's a cliche, but really, it's the thought that counts, i.e. good will to men and all that. If a Border's clerk had done that to me however, I would not have left the store until she was fired. I would not have made a scene but would have found the manager and made sure the self-important little clerk realized she was hired to SERVE the customers. I have terminated employees for less as I honestly believe being in a service position means you give SERVICE in a polite and helpful manner.

I hope you spend your dollars elsewhere from now on my friend. Oh, and have a Merry Xmas


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Nomally I would, but since a central tenant of all great religons is forgiveness and recognition of the godhead in all beings I let it pass, My Christmas present to her


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_
> 
> I'm an agnostic. I'd be an athiest but I feel this would require the same leap of faith it takes to be religious. I count myself as being truly "without knowledge."
> 
> ...


Who's being self-important?


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by young guy_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I take you are inferring I am. Please explain to me how I'm being self important?


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

Kav, very nice comment.
I agree with you.
So quick to fire a person.
I stated my peace on another old forum about a Brooks Brothers employee.
We are dealing with humans, they make mistakes as well.
There is another forum on where is the civility?
Also, where is the compassion?
Something I have noticed, after I retired.
Simple put, where is the kindness?
The caring?
I think, if you were quick to fire, then you shoud be fired as well.
Because you are not managing your store very well.
You lack the knowledge that people do make mistakes, that sometimes a little forgiveness is as good as anything else.
Gentlemen

Have a nice day






Jimmy


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

DukeGrad, exactly what I meant.
Cheers


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Duplicate post.


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> Gentlemen
> 
> ...


I am sorry, I should know better after so many years on the internet. One should never say anything of strong opinion or position, as all those that disagree with make you into Hitler.

I am apparently now a bad manager (of a store of some kind apparently....even though I'm COO of a hospital) because I feel service staff should provide service. It is also now assumed because I do not feel a clerk at Border's should be allowed to publicly humiliate a patron, I lack the ability to forgive. Call me old fashioned but some things are forgivable, some are not. It is further assumed that I am quick to fire due to this. Nothing could be further from the truth however I will not defend myself as it is useless.

Please all, Merry Christmas from your newly demonized Hitler, bad manager of a store and a person that is unable to forgive.

The internet never fails to make me laugh 

Edit: My apologies, I forgot to mention I am also self-important. Another problem in modern America demonstrated; to identify a problem is to become the problem.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

AzChillicat
I am not mad at you? Am sorry if you feel this way.
I simply pointed out something you had stated.
It appeared to me to be the wrong thing to say or do.
COO ofa hospital?
This puts you in the over 50 crowd?
Unless mom or dad has clout.
Your position dictates some compassion, this you do not display.
This is just my feelings.
Please dont wimper, I care for you.
I am sorry you are hurt.
Happy Holiday to you as well my friend.

De Oppresso Liber

Jimmy


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_
> 
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> 
> ...


Chill, 'Chilicat. No one demonized you, or compared you to Adolf the Peacemaker. Your comment seemed a bit high-handed, that's all. You wouldn't have left the store until the snarling witch had been dismissed? Given that it was the Christmas shopping season, you would likely have been in for a long wait, even if the store manager had been inclined to mete out summary discipline: during the last minute retail rush, most stores, certainly most Borders stores, need all the help they can get. And who humiliated whom, in any case? As Kav tells the story, it seems that he exposed the pompous pagan's ignorance and pretense in an entirely satisfying manner: you would heap immediate job loss on top of this dialectical drubbing? Harsh, harsh indeed, and perhaps dangerous: if Robert Graves is to be believed, The Triple Goddess does not take kindly to gratuitous insults to Herself or her acolytes. Best forgive, forget, and enjoy the holidays. Finally, in future, please avoid introducing straw men and other excesses into the exchange: around here, we only countenance discourse that meets the most rigorous standards of rhetorical excellence. Cheers.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> Gentlemen
> 
> ...


Ummm sorry but very wrong on both counts.


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> Finally, in future, please avoid introducing straw men and other excesses into the exchange: around here, we only countenance discourse that meets the most rigorous standards of rhetorical excellence. Cheers.


Yckmwia, thanks for the chuckle you knew that was sure to give me. Prosperous New Year to you.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Ethnic Joke heard from the ethnicity involved, or, to be precise my friend Richard. Black man pulls into his driveway in a new Cadillac. His wife steps out and asks where it came from, and did he see his doctor? Man says,woman, I did. Doctor says I's Impotant. Now I can't be impotant and drive a Chevy you know that; especially with our nieghbors the Lees driving one. Wife walks away in disgust just as Mrs Lee steps out for the taxi. Why Mrs Lee! why aren't you driving? Oh, my stupid husband lost his license and doctor said the cataract had to go. I for one, do not seek impotence.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

KAV


Nice one.
Thank you.
Gentlemen, am sorry myself for some of my remarks to AzChillici.
I was wrong to make some of my statements.
I have noticed, since I retired, that I shoot from the cuff. And real fast.
I noticed as well, since retirement, that there is a great deal of non-caring people in the world.
Especially men.
Above the age of 50.
I miss my sacred world of the military.
We cared, "for everyone", and "one-another".
I write so many friends, in retirement, who feel the same.
I will defend, and try to help politically anyone I can.
One by one.
Including the Borders person, or the Brooks person.Or the French.
On this forum, I have done that. At times, I will jump on something that does not look right.
And I will make an "ASS" of myself.
To set it right.
I come from a hard core world my friends.
I served with this countries elite.
I can not recall an unkind remark about a human.
Again, my friends, we are talking about humans.

In your high position (Az); sit back, look around you, look at the car you drive, the home you have.
And thank God for what you have.
Gentlemen, am out of here.
GodBless,
Nice day my friends

De Oppresso Liber










Jimmy


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## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

I agree with Jimmy on the lack of compassion in general. But being COO (I remember a time before such a title!), would certainly present challenges. I've seen a hell of a lot of decent people that work at hospitals, but also a signficant minority that ought to get the axe -- esp., with the way they deal with the ill.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:I am sorry, I should know better after so many years on the internet. One should never say anything of strong opinion or position, as all those that disagree with make you into Hitler.


Yes, it's inescapable! Remember Godwin's Law: 'As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.'



> quote:I'm an agnostic. I'd be an athiest but I feel this would require the same leap of faith it takes to be religious. I count myself as being truly "without knowledge."


I agree; with knowledge, one would realise that it does not require a leap of faith to be an atheist.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

My take on the situation...I'm not quite sure why a person who doesnt celebrate Christmas would get their knickers in a bunch because they were wished a Merry Christmas...I look at it like this...I have friends who are of all different religious backgrounds (Jewish, Hindu, etc...), and have been invited to all different kinds of weddings, parties, and celebrations based around their specific faith...now I may not be of the same religion as them, so it may not mean the same thing to me, but the fact that they would be willing to share their special day with me is an honor...so why should somebody not be honored (but, in fact, down right offended) when I try to share a little Christmas cheer with them???

...at least, that's the way I see it...

*****
"When you wear lapels like the swellest of swells, you can pass any mirror and...
*smile*
...You've either got or you haven't got style!!!"​


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Kav, what is a "feraferian"? I thought I knew quite a lot about weirdo religious beliefs, but that was a new one on me! I'll also try to do a web search and see what I come up with.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Feraferians were a Pasadena based pagan group with a classical greek flavour. Think Animal House toga party meets Penguin Classics lubricated with Ouzo. The leader was a Pan like ( in looks and libido) local english teacher with some digruntled Rosicrucians as core followers. Things sort of fell apart when I took the reigning beauty away to learn honest greek from my friend Dina Makris, a gay poet who used to read the illiad in attican greek for me after candlelit dinners of stuffed grape leafs. Dina took us to greek orthodox services and the feraferian's Venus had a beatific vision and converted ( said vision being some greek mortal named Aleksios.) Dina and I retired to her place where I made further failed attempts at seduction.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> Feraferians were a Pasadena based pagan group with a classical greek flavour. Think Animal House toga party meets Penguin Classics lubricated with Ouzo. The leader was a Pan like ( in looks and libido) local english teacher with some digruntled Rosicrucians as core followers. Things sort of fell apart when I took the reigning beauty away to learn honest greek from my friend Dina Makris, a gay poet who used to read the illiad in attican greek for me after candlelit dinners of stuffed grape leafs. Dina took us to greek orthodox services and the feraferian's Venus had a beatific vision and converted ( said vision being some greek mortal named Aleksios.) Dina and I retired to her place where I made further failed attempts at seduction.


Thanks, Kav. Actually, the few references to the Feraferians I could find on the web alluded to Margot Adler's book Drawing Down the Moon. I had read that book about 15 years ago, but I had quite forgotten most of the particulars about the sundry cults. Fortunately, I still had the book in my personal library and read up about Fred Adams and his neo-pagan, goddess religion of Feraferia. According Ms. Adler, Adams made his living for much of his career as a caseworker for the L.A. County Welfare Department. Of course, the old boy could have had a career change at some point. Was the "reigning beauty" you mention Adams' longime squeeze Svetlana? I note that Ms. Adler mentions that by the time of the second (1986) edition the Feraferian sect seemed to be on the ropes, as it were. Svetlana and Adams were no longer an item by then.

What is the Iliad in "Attic Greek," BTW? The Iliad is written in Homeric Greek, a dialect of ancient Greek similar to but quite distinct from classic Attic.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I would have been annoyed by the clerk, but probably refused to do anything.

However, the manager of the store should not allow her to behave that way. There is no reason to piss cusomers off over something like that. While she may should probably not be fired on the spot, she should be warned that her behavior is inappropriate and could be fired if she continues.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

She sounds young, angry, needing something to prove (i.e. clueless) and probably weary from working long hours in the holiday madness. I probably would have just shook my head and said "Merry Christmas". With any luck she will grow up someday.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

My mistake, I had attican in my brain and forgot Homer wrote in yet another dialect. When you have somebody like Dina reading in a voice more lovely than sunsets and birdsongs it tends to addle the attica.Sadly, the Gods took it, and eventually Dina away with mycenium gravis Adams claimed to have once been a teacher and was always picking on grammatical errors and missing ideas hidden like unpolished stones. Svetlana was long gone when Dina and I were invited. Our girl was a tall, half greek vision of the old cretian snake goddess.Old Adams was circling me like a would be champion never noticing my own Circe was weaving spells on his next conquest.I avoid pagans these days. The retired army clerk/ pesticide advisor in Camarillo with two wives ( ancient celtic warriors had multiple wives according to him) was to much.I told my main contact, the 'official' witch of Pierce College I was re embracing the high church and my anthropological observations were over.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Few, if any, participants on this forum have had more interesting and colorful existences than yourself, Kav! I get the sense that Adams must have been pretty long in the tooth by the time you ran across him. I know he was in grad school while I was still in prep school, and I'm no spring chicken myself these days!

Sorry to hear about Dina. I am sure her voice was lovely and melodic, but always find Greeks read ancient Greek as if it were Modern Greek, which I always find very jarring. I am sure my scholarly "correct" pronunciation is equally jarring to them! For similar reasons, I refused to see The Passion of the Christ when I learned they were using that awful Italianate pronunciation of Latin that was foisted into use in the English-speaking world by converts from the Church of England to Roman Catholicism who wished to show how "un-English" they were.

"Mycenium gravis"? Do you mean "myasthenia gravis," perchance? I suspect too much Homer-talk may have momentarily addled your brain: "Sparta and Argos and wide-wayed Mycenae."

Two wives, eh? My own inclination is to believe that one is probably too much most of the time. I should think, unless you are a recusant Mormon elder in southern Utah, it would be hard to find two women who would go along with such arrangement. I always find these chaps who are able to pull it off rather surprising, especially in that the women they recruit look fairly desirable more often than not.


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> This puts you in the over 50 crowd?
> Unless mom or dad has clout.
> Your position dictates some compassion, this you do not display.


You can feel compassionate for someone you've just fired.


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

Well there certainly has been a loss of civility all around and it would certainly be nice if all parties could accept sincerely offered greetings as the gift that they are. 

As for the young Wiccan clerk, well a happy Yule to her. A wise old man once told me that things people say have almost nothing to do with you and almost everything to do with how they perceive themselves and the level of respect that the world has accorded them. 

"If a man be gracious and courteous to strangers, it shows that he is a citizen of the world, and that his heart is no island cut off from other lands, but a continent that joins to them." 
-Francis Bacon


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