# RM Williams Boots - Everything You Wanted to Know



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

RM Williams is an Australian icon that evokes images of the vast Australian outback, of Banjo Patterson and the Man from Snowy River. They have been making boots since the 1930's when Reginald Murray Williams learned the art of leather saddlery and boot making in the South Australian outback from a fellow known as Dollar Mick.

From time to time questions arise on the forum about RM Williams boots. They have a good website (https://www.rmwilliams.com.au/) but it is strangely lacking in detail and too much of it is advertising hype. So I thought I would write a post that would help those of you internationally to choose the best boot for your tastes and needs.

*Construction*

The thing that makes Chelsea boots by RM Williams a rare bird and highly collectable is that they are a _wholecut_ Chelsea boot. This is what RMW are famous for and what makes them stand out from the crowd. Note the following Tudor boot from the JL current catalogue I picked up in New York:

https://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tudoruf4.jpg

Great boot but notice the seam on the side: this is not a wholecut.

Ditto for the Chelsea boot from EG (from the Skyvalet website https://www.skyvalet1.com). The seam on the side is better hidden but it is definitely there:

https://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newmarketoh0.jpg

One of the most authorative books every written on men's shoes is "Alles über Herrenschuhe" by Helge Sternke:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3894...305401-6924534

In this monumental book twice the size of Flusser's Dressing the Man, Sternke writes (my translation):

_Whoever takes a look at the boots on offer will discover two different vamp constructions. The usual boots will have underneath the elastic inserts, a vertical seam, whereas the finer and costlier models come without this additional vamp seam, because the vamp is made of only a single piece of leather. Only a few remaining traditional makers offer such boots - and mostly then only on special enquiry. One of the few which still carry them in their regular catalogue is the Australian firm RM Williams, who usually leave the shaft unlined. The one piece shaft has a clear long ridge running down the front of the boot resulting out of the time consuming process of blocking the shaft, during which the form of the shaft is pre-formed before it is stitched - an additional step which certainly adds to the cost of the boot but permits a decidedly better final form over the upper and assures a better fit. Without the blocking step the leather crumples on walking and the resulting rolls of leather press on the foot_ (Quoted from page 242)

The ridge running down the front of the boot is only apparent when it is brand new and disappears with wear. Far from being a defect, it is proof that RM Williams uses an old fashioned high end manufacturing technique usually found in bespoke boots:

https://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=craftsmanblockingridgeff1.jpg

The overall quality of their boots can be best described as basic high end comparable to AE and superior to Loakes. They are amongst the most comfortable footwear I have ever worn, doubtless largely as a result of their whole-cut boot construction for which they are rightly famous. They are Goodyear mostly welted. They are also one of the few bootmakers left that make a RTW boot with a brass screwed leather construction. It results in a much sleeker looking boot than the equivalent Goodyear welted model. RMW also makes storm welted boots. As far as the construction of screwed vs welted boots go I have heard from boot makers that a screwed construction is just as good or even better. The construction of their boots is as shown in their catalogue:

https://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rmwconstructionmu3.jpg

The follow picture from their current catalogue shows what is clearly a hand-guided process of machine welting.

*Leathers*

The leathers they use on their dress boots are mainly yearling, kangaroo, veal calf as well as suede. I have only ever seen them use full grain leathers.

Yearling is their basic leather and is a highly attractive leather. It is a soft and mildly grainy leather. Yearling is thicker than either kangaroo or French veal calf. It comes in three colours: Black, chestnut, dark tan and tan. Chestnut is a handsomely dark shade of brown, perhaps slightly lighter than the Dark Oak available from EG. The RMW Dark Tan is a medium brown with only the faintest tinge of red in it. The tan is a lighter medium brown. It is darker than the sand colour that you might at first conjure up.

Kangaroo is said to be the toughest leather weight for weight in the world and for this reason RMW chooses thinner skins. Kangaroos are as common as rodents in many parts of Australia - contrary to popular misconception overseas they are not an endangered species:

https://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/kangaroos.html

Kangaroos skin is much more coarse grained than other skins because they are left to roam around in the wild and accumulate small scars during the animal's lifetime. It is suitable for casual wear. If choosing kangaroo leather it is advisable to choose a narrower fitting boot because the thin and supple leather makes the boot run a half width wider.

The black kangaroo looks moderately grainier than the yearling, thinner and lighter but highly durable. The chestnut kangaroo is a stunning leather that looks faintly darker and significantly richer than the chestnut yearling. For some reason it looks finer grained than its black counterpart. Kangaroo comes only in black and chestnut.

French veal calf is taken from a younger animal and is available in black and chestnut. It is imported from France because the recent droughts in Australia have made it too difficult to source the leather here consistently. The main attraction is that it is a very soft, fine grained leather that polishes up beautifully. RM Williams recommends it for dress boots. They charge around $60 AUD more for it. The potential disadvantage is that it is softer and more delicate.

Other leathers include suede in dark brown.

Exotic leathers for men's dress boots worthy of mention include ostrich and crocodile. They are available on special order and are top quality but rather pricey. I have seen a pair of crocodile Craftsman on sale for over $5500 AUD. The ostrich Craftsman retails for $1800 AUD.

Another leather, less commonly used by RM Williams is willow. It is a slightly grainier leather than yearling and less expensive. It is used mostly in the cheaper range of boots.

https://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rmwleatherssb0.jpg

*Sizing of Standard Catalogue Models*

How to Find Your Size:

_1. Based on the Fit of a Allen Edmonds Park Avenues (Nr 5 Last)_

AE PA size minus one and drop down one width (RMWs run wide).

Example for if you wear size 10s in an AE Park Ave:

AE PA size 10EE = RMW size 9H
AE PA size 10E = RMW size 9G (medium)
AE PA size 10D (medium) = RMW size 9F
AE PA size 10C = RMW size 9E

G width is medium width in RMW sizing.
D width is medium width in US sizing.
If you drop down one width and you normally wear AE D width your best width is F width in RMWs.

I wear size 8D in AE PAs so my size in RMW is 7F. This conversion also works for other AE models made on the Nr 5 last.

For US based forum members this is rapidly becoming the method of choice for choosing your RMW size and works best for the veal calf and kangaroo Craftsman. Yearling leather is a bit thicker and less stretchy so you should consider going up a width.

_2. Based on Other Allen Edmonds Lasts _

AE lasts other than the Nr 5 run wider. The Nr 5 is the narrowest and longest of their lasts. If you base your sizing on shoes made on lasts other than the Nr 5 you may need to go up a width, though this will result in you ordering a boot a tad on the widish side:

AE size minus one

Example for if you wear size 10:

AE size 10E = RMW size 9H 
AE size 10D (medium) = RMW size 9G (medium)
AE size 10C = RMW size 9F

Check to see if your AE shoe has a bit of looseness side to side. If so consider dropping down a width, especially if ordering in thinner, softer leathers such as veal calf and kangaroo.

_4. Based on the Your Size in Loakes Shoes_

If you know your UK size in a Loakes order that (ie US size - 1 for most guys). Loakes and RMWs are identical in length but RMWs run wider. If you wear a medium (F) width in a Loakes choose the narrower F width in the RMW.

_5. The RMW Recommendation_

This is what RMW recommends:

https://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sc002553adwg6.jpg

This formula works best for yearling leather which is thicker and less stretchy than French veal calf or kangaroo.

_5. Based on Your John Lobb Paris Shoe Size_

My experience with JL is that they too run narrower than RMW even though they are in UK sizes. Again order the same UK size but drop down one width.

*Shoes Widths:*

RMW widths are:
C=extra extra narrow
D=extra narrow
E=narrow
F=medium-narrow
G=medium
H=wide

There is only one RMW last that is available in a C,D, or E width and that is the rounded toe last.

AE Widths are:
B = extra narrow
C = narrow
D = medium
E = wide
EE = extra wide
EEE = extra extra wide

*Lasts and Heel Shapes*

These have to be discussed together because even if the last shape is the same (eg chisel toed) they have a different last code depending on whether the boot has a flat heel (FH) or a high heel (HH). Here are the basics of what most forum members will need to know:

1.	Most of us will only be interested in the flat heel. The only other heel I can recommend is the higher so called 'Block Heel', which looks less exaggerated than in many photos. The so called Ladies Block Heel lacks the taper (don't know why it's call a Ladies Block Heel as it looks more masculine because of its squareness to me). 
2.	Remember that lasts for high heels have different numbers.
3.	The B543 chisel square toed flat heel last of the Craftsman is the best known and is a classic. Available only in F, G, H widths 
4.	There are three classic round toed lasts. The widest is the B531 Extra Wide flat heel toe last in an H fit. The medium fit one is called the B530 Wide Toe flat heel last and is available in F and G widths. The narrow fit last is the B529 Medium Toe last, available (confusingly) in a C,D,E,F,G and H fit. The B531 looks fat and clunky but the others are definitely classics. If you prefer a sleeker look consider going up a size and down a width or two. 
5.	The B555 Narrow Medium Toe flat heel last is also very elegant. It is a slightly pointed narrow nosed last, but unexaggeratedly so. Looks sharp combined with the Block Heel on the B522 Narrow Medium high heel last.

The following is the full catalogue detail of heel shapes and lasts. It is quoted for completeness only, because it is rather confusing. If you decide you want a nailed boot, or one with a rubber sole (or any other non-standard combination of leathers, heels, construction method) you will have to decipher it yourself to see if it is feasible:

https://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heelslaststablejx7.jpg

*The Standard Catalogue Models*

I will limit myself to the ones relevant to forum members only.

_1. Goodyear Welted Ankle Boots_

_The Craftsman_

An absolute classic made using the B543 chisel toe last. It is usually routinely available in a wide range of leathers:

https://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=craftsmannt4.jpg

https://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=craftsman1fg3.jpg

Infosheet on the Kangaroo Craftsman in PDF format:

https://www.rmwilliams.com.au/product_informationsheet.asp?productid=456E0E05845F03EC

PDF Infosheet for the French Veal Craftsman:

https://www.rmwilliams.com.au/product_informationsheet.asp?productid=055D37B6CE27C353

PDF Infosheet for the dark brown suede Craftsman:

https://www.rmwilliams.com.au/product_informationsheet.asp?productid=F0DA964B6ED2ED0E

PDF Infosheet for the yearling Craftsman:

https://www.rmwilliams.com.au/product_informationsheet.asp?productid=E845F2A8706FAAAE

There are a few variations on the Craftsman worthy of mention.

https://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turnoutyearlingyx3.jpg

Of these the Turnout is available in a wider variety of widths because it is made using the round toe lasts (B529, B530, B531). You can get them in widths from E to H, although narrower widths are available as a custom order. Those of you who felt the Craftsman is lacking in sleekness should try going up a size on the Turnout and dropping down a width or two (as narrow as the equivalent AE size allows).

PDF Infosheet for the Turnout:

https://www.rmwilliams.com.au/product_informationsheet.asp?productid=ECFCF73ACF17ED69

The Yearling in the narrow nosed B522 last with the block heel is a very attractive model. It looks particularly good in black. Narrower widths are available as a custom order: F width with a flat heel and E width for a high heel. The medium G width feels as wide as the chisel toe in the equivalent sized G: even though it looks narrower, they fit the same. If you like the pointier toed last but prefer the flat heel then there is the Macquarie on the B555 last.

PDF infosheet for the Yearling:

https://www.rmwilliams.com.au/product_informationsheet.asp?productid=7D94AC8B8A9BF02B

PDF Infosheet for the Macquarie:

https://www.rmwilliams.com.au/product_informationsheet.asp?productid=0DC25838DE1C017F

The Stockman is another attractive boot made on the B543 chisel toe last. It is a strap jodhpur model. I have seen a similar model from JM Weston in person but the RMW last is so much more elegant, that even if the Weston has somewhat better leather and the construction more refined, the huge price difference (about $1000 for the Westons) is hard to justify.

_2. Equestrian Top Boots_

RMW makes some very handsome looking traditional equestrian style top boots. They like you to be measured out by a trained person at one of their store for the full on made to measure equestrian boots.

https://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=equestriantopbootsmv1.jpg

Other models can be ordered without a serious measuring process and a couple may interest some of you.

https://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=topboots2ae7.jpg

There are plenty more models (women's models, cowboy boots etc) and for these I refer you to the RMW website. I have also deliberately missed out the Simpson boot as the G Joey last is sadly really wide and snub nosed. They can only make lace up boots on this last but I cannot recommend it. If you must order it you should drop down a size because it is so wide and comes in only one width. Worse still they insist on stamping this (and _only_ this) model with a RMW logo.

*The Forum Special*

I put this configuration together in response to a couple of valid criticisms about the standard offerings from RMW. The first was that they were insufficiently sleek. The second was that the construction lacked refinement. The result was that some have expressed concern that they were too much of a country style casual boot to be worn as a city dress boot with a suit. I have tried to address these point by putting together a configuration that brought together all of the strengths of the maker in one custom order model.

Firstly, I have chosen French veal calf. It is their best quality leather. All boots made with it look notably more refined and the leather polishes up beautifully.

Next, I decided to find a last that was the sleekest that they offered. To make it even sleeker, I decided to go up a 1/2 size from my usual Craftsman and drop down on width. I tried the size on, and it fit me like a glove with a very similar fit to what I subjectively get from Park Avenues (my yardstick for comparing sizes).

Lastly, I noticed that the brass screwed leather soles had almost no lip jutting out from around the edge of the shoe. The fact that RMW are one of the few RTW bootmakers around who still offer boots utilising this construction method made it even more attractive. I have heard that many Austro-Hungarian bespoke bootmakers still favour the technique.

The heel is a flat heel on the B529 last. With the brass screwed soles only a leather sole is possible.

RMW say that the brass screwed leather sole is replaceable and the brass screws wear down with the leather. Boots of this construction are, of course, suitable as dress shoes. I have confirmed that this is indeed the case with RMW in South Australia. This position agrees with the information on their website and catalogue. A forumite was mistakenly told by an ill informed salesman at the NY RMW store that it is meant only for riding boots.

Aesthetically, the brass screwed boots are much more pleasing than the RMW Goodyear welted boots:

This is what it looks like. Just to emphasise how sleek they are I have placed them side by side with a pair of UK size 7E Canonbury boots from John Lobb on their famous 7000 last. Incredibly, in terms of sleekness, the RMW Forum Special model (on the left) scarcely loses anything to its illustrious rival:

Even more surprisingly, the the Forum Special has a less prominent lip jutting out around the boots than the Goodyear welted John Lobbs:

If anything the Forum Special may arguably be a touch sleeker than the John Lobbs on their 7000 last.

*Working Out Your Forum Special Size Based on Allen Edmonds Park Avenues*

This is the _*Stock Standard Formula*_ I have used to work out sizing. It works perfectly for me although the result is a skin tight boot:

AE PA size minus 0.5 but drop down 2 widths from your usual width

Example:

If you wear AE 10EEE your RMW size is 9.5H
If you wear AE 10EE your RMW size is 9.5G (medium)
If you wear AE 10E = RMW 9.5F
If you wear AE 10D (medium) = RMW 9.5E
If you wear AE 10C = RMW 9.5D
If you wear AE 10B = RMW 9.5C

In my case I wear AE PA 8D so I ordered an RMW 7.5E

Remember, I can only guarantee reasonable success when you order in the French veal calf. The yearling is thicker and less supple/stretchy and will feel up to a half size narrower. The kangaroo is even stretchier than the veal calf.

The only potential problem I can forsee (you will get to see objective measurements for yourself soon) is the Forum Special measures a fraction a narrower than my Park Avenues. If your PAs are _extremely_ snug side to side (mine are quite snug sideways) or you want a looser, less skin tight fit you could go up a width. I will call this the *Looser Fit Standard Formula*.

AE PA size minus 0.5 and go down a width.

Example:

If you wear AE 10EE your RMW size is 9.5H
If you wear AE 10E = RMW 9.5G (medium)
If you wear AE 10D (medium) = RMW 9.5F
If you wear AE 10C = RMW 9.5E
If you wear AE 10B = RMW 9.5D

Here is a comparison of the lengths of the Forum Special in RMW 7.5E vs an AE Park Ave 8D:

https://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forumspecialvspasidewayyz5.jpg

Here is a close up of the tips of the toes. You can see that the AE Nr 5 last is a very long nosed extended last:

https://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forumspecialvspalengthsyh6.jpg

Remember, those of you happily wearing the Craftsman in AE PA size minus one will be wearing even shorter boots than this.

Here is a comparison of the widths. I am using calipers to compare widths. I set the calipers at the maximum width of the PAs:

https://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pascalipersrb0.jpg

Then I take the calipers set at that width over to the Forum Specials:

https://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b529vspawidthcalipersdn7.jpg

Notice that there is a gap of about 3 millimetres, showing that the PA measure wider. Though the Forum Special is narrower, the subjective sensation is one of a very similar fit to the PAs shown. I think the RMW has softer leather and the last has more volume vertically over the vamp. My 8D PAs are quite snug on me, especially sideways. The Forum Special definitely feels wider than AE 8Cs, which are way too narrow for me to fit into without pain.

OK, maybe the Forum Special feels subjectively just a tiny fraction narrower and quite snug around the ankles. But I like that feel of ankle support and the leather is already soft and supple brand new. As they get broken in that snugness should gradually ease off.

If you have concerns about the faint narrowness and shortness relative to PAs of the Forum Special in my Standard Formula, you could order a Forum Special using *the Alternative Formula*:

Your the _same_ size as your AE PA size but drop down 2 widths from your usual width

Example:

If you wear AE 10EEE your RMW size is 10H
If you wear AE 10EE your RMW size is 10G (medium)
If you wear AE 10E => RMW 10F
If you wear AE 10D (medium) => RMW 10E
If you wear AE 10C => RMW 10D
If you wear AE 10B => RMW 10C

*
Working Out Your Forum Special Size Based On Crockett and Jones Sizing*

Next for C&J afficionados this is my standard sizing conversion:

C&J UK size _plus_ 0.5 and drop down two widths

Example

C&J UK 10F (wide) => RMW 10.5F
C&J UK 10E (medium) => RMW 10.5E
C&J UK 10D (narrow) => RMW 10.5D

Here is a comparison with a pair of UK size 7E Norfolks (not a regular catalogue offering) - possibly on the 335 last like the Coniston:

https://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cjvsforumspecialxt8.jpg

You can see on this close up that the lengths are pretty much identical:

https://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cjvsforumspecialtoesep2.jpg

Width wise, the C&Js measure much wider. However, once again the softer leather and greater volume over the vamps of RMW boots means that the fit feels subjectively similar, with the Forum Special only being somewhat narrower. If concerned you should not hesitate in goinng one width up.

*Working Out Your Forum Special Size Based on John Lobb 7000 Last Sizing*

Sizing vs the 7000 Last plus 0.5, and drop down one RMW size:

Example

UK Size 10 => RMW 10.5

You can see that the 7000 last and the Forum Special are similar in length:

https://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forumspecialvscanonburyfo6.jpg

The 7000 last both feels wider as well as measuring wider. My conversion is thus:

7000 last UK size _plus_ 0.5 and drop down one width:

Example:

UK size 10F (wide) => RMW 10.5G (medium)
UK size 10E (medium) => RMW 10.5F 
UK size 10D (narrow) => RMW 10.5E

*Buying Boots On-line*

I have scored a minor coup for forum members. Just for you guys I rang up Steve of Nungar Trading Company today (I have NO financial interest in them at all):

https://www.nungar.com.au/

Normally voucher pricing is only offered to selected professional organisation members and the like. However, at my request Steve has agreed to sell to _all_ forums members at the voucher prices mentioned on the item details of this webpage:

All you have to do is mention "Style Forum special voucher price deal" when you order.

The only minor catch is that RMW has just put its prices up and you will be charged $10 AUD (about $7.50 USD) more than the currently listed prices pending an upcoming website update.

Steve said he does not ship tax free (I didn't understand why) and all prices on the site are inclusive of GST (or VAT as it is called in the UK).

Steve's prices are much lower than those found on his rival seller's website:

My first recommendation for many forum members will be a pair of chestnut kangaroo Craftsman. Those wanting a sleeker look will be pleased with the Turnout in yearling leather (if you choose a narrow width). Those wanting a slightly more casual look should consider the Yearling. Anyone wanting a jodhpur boot should not hesitate in ordering the Stockman boot, although it will NOT be a wholecut. If you want other combinations of heel style, lasts and leathers you will need to put in a custom order. Try emailing Steve for a quote:

[email protected]

*Ordering the Forum Special Model*

Steve is offering a 5% discount on special orders for the Forum Special model at a price of $285 AUD (ie 224 US dollars, 172 Euros, or 113 Pounds Sterling at the time of writing). When you e-mail him just mention that you are ordering the Forum Special model (flat heel, B529 last, French veal calf, brass screwed leather soles).

For those of you wanting to order in yearling leather the cost is $240 AUD. And for kangaroo it is $255 AUD. For the kangaroo leather I would only use my Stock Standard Formula (AE PA size minus 0.5 and down two widths). For the yearling use the Looser Fit Standard Formula or else use the Alternative Formula.

Lastly, other online sellers and RMW will know nothing of the Forum Special model. This is something I have personally created. It is a custom order.

19 Sept 06: added more boot styles and images
20 Sept 06 revised US to Aus/UK sizing guide
30 Oct 06: added & revised quote from Helge Sternke's new book
9 November: major revision of sizing guide
17 November: added link to show kangaroos are not an endangered species
9 Feb 2007: The Forum Special is announced!
10 Feb 2007: Added more details on converting AE sizes to RMW sizes based on lasts other than the AE Nr 5


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Thank you for a very thorough bit of research. As an avowed fan of RM Williams footwear and a consumer committed to thououghly researching a product prior to purchase, I have learned much I didn't know from your considerable effort. However regarding your endorsement of Nungar's as a preferred source due to their pricing, several years ago when I was buying my first pair of RM Williams, I placed an order for the kangaroo Craftsmans through Nungars. Five months later, with multiple unanswered inquiries as to my order status and no boots in hand, I cancelled my order with Nungars and placed an order with the Stitching Horse Bootery for a pair of yearling Craftsmans and a pair of kangaroo Craftsmans. Unbelievably, The Stitching Horse Bootery had the yearling Craftsmans delivered to my front porch in NW Indiana within five days, with an explanation that the kangaroo Craftsmans would require six to eight weeks for delivery, due to being on back order. Five weeks later my kangaroo Craftsmans were delivered. The Stitching Horse Bootery exceeded this customer's expectations...Nungars Trading Company didn't even try! Nungars may be very responsive to customers on sight, however, I can only hope that the treatment I recieved on my first order is not indicative on how they typically treat their online customers. Again, thanks for the research effort!
Eagle


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

BTW Andy, I am also trying to encourage Steve to advertise on your website. I suspect that with the sort of prices he offers these boots for he would do well if he chose to do so. Perhaps if you contacted him yourself he would be more willing? I am also trying to get him to introduce himself to the forum but that's another story.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> Thank you for a very thorough bit of research. As an avowed fan of RM Williams footwear and a consumer committed to thououghly researching a product prior to purchase, I have learned much I didn't know from your considerable effort. However regarding your endorsement of Nungar's as a preferred source due to their pricing, several years ago when I was buying my first pair of RM Williams, I placed an order for the kangaroo Craftsmans through Nungars. Five months later, with multiple unanswered inquiries as to my order status and no boots in hand, I cancelled my order with Nungars and placed an order with the Stitching Horse Bootery for a pair of yearling Craftsmans and a pair of kangaroo Craftsmans. Unbelievably, The Stitching Horse Bootery had the yearling Craftsmans delivered to my front porch in NW Indiana within five days, with an explanation that the kangaroo Craftsmans would require six to eight weeks for delivery, due to being on back order. Five weeks later my kangaroo Craftsmans were delivered. The Stitching Horse Bootery exceeded this customer's expectations...Nungars Trading Company didn't even try! Nungars may be very responsive to customers on sight, however, I can only hope that the treatment I recieved on my first order is not indicative on how they typically treat their online customers. Again, thanks for the research effort!
> Eagle


With special orders like kangaroo Craftmans 7-8 weeks is the usual wait time even when you order directly from RM Williams at their George St store in Sydney. I've got a pair of kangaroo Stockmans on order with Steve and he told me per phone that it will take this long but that is consistent with my experience with RM Williams in general. I've also noticed that to pin Steve down you have to ring him. He almost never responds to my emails. Either he rings me or I ring him.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

For Canucks who don't want to order from a distance, RMWs are sold by https://www.australianboot.com/ at several locations. Thanks to Sator, for providing exactly the sort of _uber_-detailed analysis that revs us up in this forum.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

For those of you interested in seeing the boots in person there are only two stores in the whole northern hemisphere:

R.M.Williams New York
46 East 59th Street
New York
USA
United States
10021
ph: 1 212 308 1808
fax: 1 212 832 0237

R.M.Williams London
102 New Bond St
LONDON
United Kingdom
W1S 1SS
ph: +44 2 07 6296222
fax: +44 2 07 6296333


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## Undertakered (Jul 13, 2005)

Great writeup Sator, confirms most of what I new about RM's. 

Now for a brief hijak... what is all the commotion about elastic sided boots on here recently. I always veiwed elastic sided boots (like the craftsman) as work boots, made for working hard in labouring or farm type work. The impression that I get here is that you guys are wearing these with suits or something... is this an american thing I am not aware of ?

I mean I could wear these with jeans or work chinos no worries, but I would feel like a bit of a goose if I wore them with anything more dressy. Could someone explain this a little more, am I missing the point ? (btw I have owned several pairs of similar boots in my previous labouring life, but no RM's  )

Regards
Harley


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Undertakered said:


> Great writeup Sator, confirms most of what I new about RM's.
> 
> Now for a brief hijak... what is all the commotion about elastic sided boots on here recently. I always veiwed elastic sided boots (like the craftsman) as work boots, made for working hard in labouring or farm type work. The impression that I get here is that you guys are wearing these with suits or something... is this an american thing I am not aware of ?
> 
> ...


Great question. I'm glad you raised it.

Chelsea boots are equestrian boots. Wearing equestrian type boots with daytime formal wear has a long history. Beau Brummell wore equestrian top boots with his coats in full dress. Here is how he might have looked (except without the ruffles in the shirt):

https://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridingsuit19c9rm.jpg

If you look at Harper catalogues from the 1890s - 1910s you will see that most of the guys are shown wearing dress boots. Admittedly they wear mostly button and Oxford boots but it is part of the same tradition of guys wearing boots with full dress.

It is fairly common to wear Chelsea boots with a suit here in Australia. People from overseas say they are surprised at first but then they say they actually quite like it. I think it might be one of those cases where due to the remoteness of Australia a 19th century tradition that has died off in Europe and the Americas may have survived here.

There is something very powerfully masculine about boots that make shoes seem a bit effeminate by comparison, dressier though they may be. Boots are what men traditionally wear when marching to war, riding a horse, as well as working the mines. So why not wear them riding into the battlefield of the business world?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Undertakered said:


> Great writeup Sator, confirms most of what I new about RM's.
> 
> Now for a brief hijak... what is all the commotion about elastic sided boots on here recently. I always veiwed elastic sided boots (like the craftsman) as work boots, made for working hard in labouring or farm type work. The impression that I get here is that you guys are wearing these with suits or something... is this an american thing I am not aware of ?
> 
> ...


I only just noticed you are in Melbourne. At one meeting here in Sydney recently I noticed about 1 in 4 or so of the guys were wearing Chelsea boots with their suits. Maybe you Melbournians are a different breed?:icon_smile_wink:


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## Undertakered (Jul 13, 2005)

Sator said:


> I only just noticed you are in Melbourne. At one meeting here in Sydney recently I noticed about 1 in 4 or so of the guys were wearing Chelsea boots with their suits. Maybe you Melbournians are a different breed?:icon_smile_wink:


Dunno if we are a different breed. In any case i am a bit of a mongrel, having spent half my life in Geelong and Rurul Victoria, and the other half in Adelaide. Needless to say there are not too many Sartorial aware people in Adelaide... dressing up is leaving out the nose-ring :icon_smile_wink:

In my current case I have not really worked in a suited environment, my previous boss kind of frowned on suits (it was however hilarious to see his expression when I wore my ascot for the first time), so I have not really had much experience checking to see what Aussie men wear under their suit pants. Perhaps other Melbournians can enlighten me ?

It was just my impression that elastic sided boots in general were for those wife beater and shorts times, ie when you are working hard whether or not you are riding a horse, and the thought of an elastic sided dress boot was a bit of an anathema to me. However after looking at the craftsmans, i can see their appeal, and if indeed Melbournians wear them I might get a pair. Note that I was already looking for a good pair of boots for suit wear, jsut not elastic sided ones.

Thanks for the reply.
Harley


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

Thanks for a great writeup. However, I haven't been able to find the Craftsman in an "F" width. I wear an 8D in AE and from your sizing explanation I should be ordering a Craftsman in 7F. They only list G and H widths or am I missing something?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

MarkY said:


> Thanks for a great writeup. However, I haven't been able to find the Craftsman in an "F" width. I wear an 8D in AE and from your sizing explanation I should be ordering a Craftsman in 7F. They only list G and H widths or am I missing something?


It's definitely listed in their current spring/summer catalogue as being routinely available (no custom order required):

https://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=craftsmannt4.jpg

If ordering through Steve, I would ask him about it. Custom orders cost a little more but you should only be charged regular prices for an F fit Craftsman. Remember too that this page I scanned out of the latest RMW catalogue is more up to date than Steve's website.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Thank you for the post, Sator. I have been eyeing RM Williams boots for a while, and I think that this is what will push me over the edge.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

MarkY said:


> Thanks for a great writeup. However, I haven't been able to find the Craftsman in an "F" width. I wear an 8D in AE and from your sizing explanation I should be ordering a Craftsman in 7F. They only list G and H widths or am I missing something?


On second thought did you perhaps mean the kangaroo or veal calf Craftsman? The F fit is routinely available only if it is in yearling leather and either black or chestnut. Anything else and you are looking at a custom order (nothing wrong with that except that it costs a little more and takes 7-8 weeks).


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

jcusey said:


> Thank you for the post, Sator. I have been eyeing RM Williams boots for a while, and I think that this is what will push me over the edge.


I am pleased my post has been of interest to you :icon_smile: . Aportnoy also expressed similar interest in the other post that lead me to hastily complete my drafts for a definitive post on RMW boots. I suggested to him that a pair of chestnut coloured kangaroo leather Chelsea boots from Australia would be a very collectable beast indeed. Still I look forward with great interested to read your assessment of the construction and leather quality when you do get your pair.


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## Nick (Jan 16, 2005)

Thanks for spending the time to research and write a terrific post. You do us all a service.

When I first moved to Australia 15 years ago I was a bit shocked to see senior executives wearing their RM Williams in conservative legal and investment banking circles. But the look has slowly grown on me and I think I'm now ready to take the plunge. Will report back on my first day in the office wearing "farm boots".

BTW, non-Aussies may be interested to know that there is another popular brand of similar boots in Australia, Blundstones. https://www.blundstone.com.au/

But there are distinct social nuances. RM Williams is considered a more "white collar" boot, blundstones generally more blue collar-- a more "genuine" working man's boot. In fact I once over-heard two people comparing universities and describing one as being "an RM Williams sort of place" and the other as "a bit more Blundstone."

Nick


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*"Sir, you have forgot your horse"*



Nick said:


> When I first moved to Australia 15 years ago I was a bit shocked to see senior executives wearing their RM Williams in conservative legal and investment banking circles. But the look has slowly grown on me and I think I'm now ready to take the plunge. Will report back on my first day in the office wearing "farm boots".
> 
> Nick


"Farm boots"? More precisely Chelsea boots are equestrian boots.

In some ways your initial reaction is similar to that of Richard 'Beau' Nash, arbiter of fashion and taste in Bath in early 18th century who reacted with disdain to the growing trend for gentlemen to wear equestrian boots for all occasions by confronting them abruptly with the greeting of "Sir, you have forgot your horse!" By Beau Brummell's time it had become fully the norm and apart from when in court dress and in formal evening dress with pumps, riding top boots were universally worn.

Yes, it is so terribly Aussie and like you it took a while for me warm to the idea but there is an old fashioned sort of masculine elegance to wearing equestrian boots with a suit.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

John Steed wore chelseas with his suits and looked pretty sharp.

Here's a pricing roundup for three online merchants that ship to the U.S. All are for the Craftsman in yearling:

Nungar.com.au: $230AUD + $50AUD shipping = $280 AUD or approx. $211 U.S. (Just got an e-mail confirming the shipping.)

Bootsonline.com.au: $275AUD + $50AUD shipping = $325AUD or $245 U.S.

Aussiebushhats.com.au: $240AUD + $36AUD shipping = $276AUD or $208 U.S.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*rm williams store i nyc?*

where is the nyc store. Is it the on 59th /park/madison near johns shoe repair?


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## geojohn (Aug 17, 2005)

Sator said:


> Summary:
> RMW size = US size - 1





Sator said:


> In terms of length RMW length is more like US size - 1.5. In fact an RMW 7.5 G is identical in length to an AE 8D.


Sator,

Thank you for taking the time to put this together. I've been searching for something in suede, and I think I've found it.

I'm a little confused about the size conversion, however. FWIW, I wear a US 11.5D in most shoes. The conversion chart indicates US size - 1, but you then say US size - 1.5, and then give an example where the conversion is US size - 0.5. Can you clarify this?

Thanks!


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## Undertakered (Jul 13, 2005)

Nick said:


> ... BTW, non-Aussies may be interested to know that there is another popular brand of similar boots in Australia, Blundstones. https://www.blundstone.com.au/
> ... Nick


Shame Nick Shame... how can you mention Blundstones without other nice Australian working "farm" boots such as Rossi. Have to be one of the most comfortable steel caps going around. But I guess my South Australian heritage is coming out here. Note however that Rossi make rubber soled boots only.

Harley


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

geojohn said:


> Sator,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to put this together. I've been searching for something in suede, and I think I've found it.
> 
> ...


I made it a bit complicated. So I should simplify.

1. If you know your size in a Loakes order that (ie US size - 1 for most guys). The sizes are identical in length and width. If you wear a medium width in a Laokes choose the medium width in the RMW. Most guys find that using the formula US size - 0.5 will result in you ordering a Loake that is a size too big. If using this formula then someone who wears AE D width should order the RMW G width (G=RMW medium width). The reason is that an RMW (or a Loakes) 10 is much shorter than an AE 11. The RMW G width is wider than a US D width but this compensates for the shorter length. 
2. If you know your size in AE then using the formula US size - 1 will work for 90% of people. When the guys here order CT/Loakes using the same formula most of them end up with the right size. This is the safe solution. If using this formula then you should order the RMW 10G (G=RMW medium width). The reason is that an RMW 10 is much shorter than an AE 11. The G width is wider but it compensates for the lack of length. 
3. If you want a more obsessively exacting fit then I would recommended getting the width absolutely right before the length. If you are a US 11D in AE (except the Nr 5 last) and you order a RMW 10F, the width will be the same as an AE 11D but the length will be significantly shorter. The suppler leather used by RMW should compensate for this and the snugger fit will be superior in the long run even if it is a bit tight at first. If an AE 11D is already a _very_ snug fit on you and you tend to wear your shoes with little or no toe room then the shorter length _may_ become an issue, especially if you order in the RMW F width.
4. If you prefer a slimmer, longer look on a boot (some have complained that RMW boots are insufficiently sleek) you might want to consider going up a half size to ensure you have enough length and then go down a width. There are limitations on this as the chisel toe last only goes down to an F width. You could order an RMW 10.5E but this will be like wearing an AE 11.5C.

So the chances are you will be well served by a RMW 10F if you are interested in the Craftsman. Do check to see how snug an AE is in the toe first though if you are going to play around with widths. I have never measured an AE or RMW size 10 or 11 in different widths, and RMW do call the G width their 'medium' width. But I have measured out the sole width of an AE 8E and it is _exactly_ the same as the RMW 7G right down to the last millimeter. And an AE 8D is definitely 3 millimeters (for most makers this is equivalent to one width) narrower than a RMW 7G, but the RMW 7G is a whole centimeter (3/8th inch) shorter!!! This is the reason why people come up with the formula of US size = UK minus 0.5. But as everyone here knows in practical terms UK size minus 1 works better.

Does that make sense???

Close scrutiny has lead me to the conclusion that most people wear only a rough approximation of their proper shoe size. I have included enough detail in my post for those of you who feel confident enough to play around with sizes and widths. For most people this is far too much detail and you are better off just going with the simple formula.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Guys! I have updated the size section as I agree that is was a bit confusing. Let me know if things are clearer now.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

dopey said:


> Thanks, Sator.
> Your post spurred me to visit their NY store today. Even at the US Store retail price, I think these boots represent very good value. I will note, however, that if you are looking for a dress Chelsea boot à la John Steed and are used to bespoke or the higher end English and Continental RTW makers, or even Alden (I have no experience with AE) these boots will not meet your expectations. The yearling leather will not be as nice as the calf you are used to, and the stitching will be coarser than you would expect on a dress boot.
> 
> That is not to say they are shoddy boots. They strike me as better than good for more casual use. At US shop prices they are a good value. At AUS prices, they are a steal. And perhaps the Veal calf is sufficiently nicer than the Yearling. I looked at the screwed soles - that seems like a particular nice choice for a dress boot, even if an unconventional one, as the profile is lower than that of a welted sole. If I get over the stitching issue and the fact that I don't need black Chelsea boots (or any other shoes for that matter), I would consider placing a special order for black Veal calf boots with a screwed sole.


I agree strongly with much of this assessment. The idea of a nailed boot in French veal calf is a great idea (I might consider it myself). Quite right: RMW is not Vass, JL, EG nor a bespoke boot. But nor is it priced like one. Yes, the stitching on many a high end RTW boot is finer than on a RMW. But RMW does something that really makes it fantastic value: they take great lasts, very 'English' in their tastefulness, and they combine them with interesting leathers. What other RTW maker offers a chestnut kangaroo leather? Many of the lasts used for boots from other makers are also terribly clunky and uncomfortable to wear. It is also almost impossible to find ankle boots as comfortable as the RMWs at this price range.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*Whats the price difference in the NYC store v. Online*



DocHolliday said:


> John Steed wore chelseas with his suits and looked pretty sharp.
> 
> Here's a pricing roundup for three online merchants that ship to the U.S. All are for the Craftsman in yearling:
> 
> ...


Anyone have a chance to check the average pricing in the nyc store. I dont have the heart or ethics to try them on there and then order online..just not fair.

thinking about a kangaroo craftsman


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## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

Sierra Trading Post is now offering Craftsmen for 199.95 ( plus shipping. )



For many years, I had RM Williams Gardner boots as my hiking boots. Very comfortable walking boots.


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

My RM Williams Craftsman arrived from STP yesterday. Thanks to the excellent sizing explanation by Sator, the fit is perfect.

I really like these boots, they're very comfortable. My only qualm is that the toe is a little more square than I would like. But they're keepers.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*RM Williams and suits*

Admittedly, I live in a state next door to the Great and Sovereign Republic of Texas:icon_smile_big: , but I have for years worn my RM Williams boots with suits. My boots are brown, so I generally wear them with gray or tan suits, and never with pinstripes. I have gotten a lot of compliments on the combination, and I like the look better than wearing western (cowboy)boots with suits which is fairly common both in the Great and Sovereign Republic and neighboring states.


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## geojohn (Aug 17, 2005)

MarkY said:


> Thanks to the excellent sizing explanation by Sator, the fit is perfect.


So what's your normal US size and what did you order? (I'm still a bit unsure what size to order myself.)


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

My experience with sizing, so far: I usually wear a 9.5 in AE Park Aves, but my 8.5 Loakes from Tywrhitt are both too large, one slightly and the other significantly. (Sator used these models as a basis of comparison, and so will I.) I went with an 8 from STP, as it was the only size left close to mine in brown. So far, I think I made the right decision. The boots might be a tiny bit snug at my small toe, but I think that's going to be far better in the long run than boots that are too loose, particularly considering the lack of lacing to hold the foot in place.


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

geojohn said:


> So what's your normal US size and what did you order? (I'm still a bit unsure what size to order myself.)


I wear an 8D in AE. I ordered a 7G (medium width) from the STP site.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

MarkY said:


> My RM Williams Craftsman arrived from STP yesterday. Thanks to the excellent sizing explanation by Sator, the fit is perfect.
> 
> I really like these boots, they're very comfortable. My only qualm is that the toe is a little more square than I would like. But they're keepers.


Phew. I am relieved that my sizing guide is being proven to be largely correct. I am the same size as you so it's easier and I will sleep easier once you guys confirm that it works just as well with other sizes.

As for being square, well, I think I know what you mean. The chisel toed last is a very elegant one but it is a bit wide. I tried going up 1/2 size and dropping down (ie going from 7G to 7.5E) and the result was an incredibly sleek shoe.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

DocHolliday said:


> My experience with sizing, so far: I usually wear a 9.5 in AE Park Aves, but my 8.5 Loakes from Tywrhitt are both too large, one slightly and the other significantly. (Sator used these models as a basis of comparison, and so will I.) I went with an 8 from STP, as it was the only size left close to mine in brown. So far, I think I made the right decision. The boots might be a tiny bit snug at my small toe, but I think that's going to be far better in the long run than boots that are too loose, particularly considering the lack of lacing to hold the foot in place.


We discussed this one on a PM before but for other people's benefit I think the issue here is that UK sizes run a bit wider than US ones. It's hard to say but once broken in the cramped toe box will hopefully improve. The lack of toe room is because UK sizes also run a bit short compared to US ones. To try to get a good fit its best to drop down a width before you drop down a size (which involves dropping down in length and width). I'd say an RMW 8.5F would be the best option for you, if you had the choice, because if you follow my width conversion scale this would be the same width as the AE 9.5D.

If you really felt that the RMW was lacking in sleekness, and assuming the RMW 8.5G fits perfectly, the other thing to try is going up to a RMW 9 and dropping down to a E width. The result is an ultra-sleek and sexy look that is rather nice. But it involves an element of tinckering and risk however...


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## indylion (Feb 28, 2005)

*RM Williams sizing*



geojohn said:


> So what's your normal US size and what did you order? (I'm still a bit unsure what size to order myself.)


My normal US size is a 11.5D. I ordered the brown in RMW 10.5G (regular width) and the black in RMW 10.5H (wide width). Both pair fit very good, not much difference in the G and H widths.


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## geojohn (Aug 17, 2005)

indylion said:


> My normal US size is a 11.5D.


Thanks Indylion, and everyone else. I'm an 11.5D as well.


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## Undertakered (Jul 13, 2005)

Sator said:


> I only just noticed you are in Melbourne. At one meeting here in Sydney recently I noticed about 1 in 4 or so of the guys were wearing Chelsea boots with their suits. Maybe you Melbournians are a different breed?:icon_smile_wink:


I was interviewing the other day and just happened to be passing an RM's Store and I thought that i should try a pair of Craftmans on. To cut a long story short I was very impressed, and have placed an order for a pair of Craftsmans in a Veal Chestnut, with the screwed soles. (These are my reward for getting a new job). RM's tell me it will be a 4-6 week wait.

Harley


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## Undertakered (Jul 13, 2005)

Undertakered said:


> I was interviewing the other day and just happened to be passing an RM's Store and I thought that i should try a pair of Craftmans on. To cut a long story short I was very impressed, and have placed an order for a pair of Craftsmans in a Veal Chestnut, with the screwed soles. (These are my reward for getting a new job). RM's tell me it will be a 4-6 week wait.
> 
> Harley


Got my boots... they look everybit as nice as I imagined. Pushes in a few places that I have not had to deal with before, but I will get used to that.

Great boots, if I can get myself organised have to post pictures. Thanks guys for talking me into getting a pair

Harley


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Yes, I'd love to see how the Craftsman looks with a screwed sole and in French veal calf. Sounds a great combination. Probably looks a bit sleaker than the Goodyear welted version? When I get around to it I think I might order a pair of Turnouts with a screwed sole in a size up from my usual size and down a couple of widths. That would really make it look sleek and dressy especially in French veal calf.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I have just updated the text to emphasise the uniqueness of the whole cut construction amongst RTW makers and how it provides greater comfort. In fact I would say RMW's construction of Chelsea boots are in certain ways superior to even that by EG or JL. 

Also I found a storm welted model in the RMW catalog and for those who want to wear them in winter, this may be worth noting.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*Ridge created by blocking the shaft*

Thank you to all who contributed to this thread which helped me understand the concept of blocking during the construction of the shaft of a boot:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=435036#post435036

Blocking is required when creating a proper fitting whole cut upper/shaft of a boot but is found mostly on bespoke boots. It is exceedingly rare amongst RTW boots but can be found routinely on RM Williams boots. Indeed this seems to be one of the secrets to the oft mentioned comfort factor of their boots.

Proof of the use of an old-fashioned and time consuming blocking process can be found when you first get your pair of RM Williams boots and you see what looks like a ridge or fold running down the front of the boot front the bottom of the shaft over the instep. It soon disappears with recurrent wearing. This ridge is the by-product of blocking the shaft.

Take a look at the following pair of new Craftsman boots:

https://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=craftsmanblockingridgeff1.jpg

See that ridge running down the front - that is evidence that the shaft has been properly blocked.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*Major Sizing Revision and the Forum Special Model*

I have taken heed of everyones' feedback and added it in with my own experience to produce a major revision to the sizing guide. It is now a lot simpler.

First up I just recommend basing your size on the AE PA. This will become the future yard stick for forumites.

Next, I have clearly acknowledged that RMWs run wide. I measured them out and compared my RMWs with AEs, Loakes, C&Js and JLs - and they definitely run wide. This explains the complaint that they run large even though the lengths are pretty standard UK lengths. It's just they are wide and this is made worse by the use of thinner, stretchier leathers.

The new sizing guide takes all of this into account.

*Plus there is more!*

I have introduced what I am going to call the _forum special model_. This one is based on the round nose B529 last, but using a different size conversion formula to create a boot on an elongated last.

There is still more to the model.

You should ask for French veal calf and a nailed construction. The nailed boots look quite considerably sleeker than the Goodyear ones. And French veal calf just looks more polished and dressier. This one should be ideal for wearing with a suit and can be ordered in your choice of chestnut or black.

It should be a killer!

Photos coming soon....


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## william76 (Aug 11, 2006)

Sator said:


> I have taken heed of everyones' feedback and added it in with my own experience to produce a major revision to the sizing guide. It is now a lot simpler.
> 
> First up I just recommend basing your size on the AE PA. This will become the future yard stick for forumites.
> 
> ...


Any photos of the Forum Special Model yet?


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## minimal (Dec 10, 2004)

Undertakered said:


> Got my boots... they look everybit as nice as I imagined. Pushes in a few places that I have not had to deal with before, but I will get used to that.
> 
> Great boots, if I can get myself organised have to post pictures. Thanks guys for talking me into getting a pair
> 
> Harley


If you can post pics, I'd be very thankful! I'd really like to see how that screwed sole looks...


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## grimslade (Aug 3, 2006)

minimal said:


> If you can post pics, I'd be very thankful! I'd really like to see how that screwed sole looks...


I've looked at the screwed soles in the RMW store in NY. They may increase the sleekness from above, but I have to say, the nailing on the sole is pretty rough looking. It is not, for example, the kind of neat nail patterns you might see on a pair of C&J handgrades or Tramezze. It's a very "country" look, for lack of a better term. RMW's pseudo-channeled soles look much better from below. IMNSHO.

I don't have a picture, I'm afraid.


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## morse (Dec 26, 2005)

I'm browsing the nungar site, and was wondering if the price quoted is in Australian or US dollars ($230 "voucher price" for the yearling Craftsman). Also, I am interested in the "Comfort Craftsman" due to its composite sole. Does anyone have any experience with this model? I wear a 9D in the PA, but it appears that the Comfort Craftsman cannot be ordered in the "F" width, only "G" and "H." Thus, I would order an 8G. This might be wide on my foot, yes? Someone earlier commented on having problems with the Nungar site. Has anyone else ordered through them? Unless their pricing is in AUD, bootsonline has better pricing- US $217 for the yearling Craftsman and US $225 for the Comfort Craftsman.


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

morse said:


> I'm browsing the nungar site, and was wondering if the price quoted is in Australian or US dollars ($230 "voucher price" for the yearling Craftsman). Also, I am interested in the "Comfort Craftsman" due to its composite sole. Does anyone have any experience with this model? I wear a 9D in the PA, but it appears that the Comfort Craftsman cannot be ordered in the "F" width, only "G" and "H." Thus, I would order an 8G. This might be wide on my foot, yes? Someone earlier commented on having problems with the Nungar site. Has anyone else ordered through them? Unless their pricing is in AUD, bootsonline has better pricing- US $217 for the yearling Craftsman and US $225 for the Comfort Craftsman.


As far as I know, Nungar is the cheapest of the two. That bootsonline price for the yearling does not sound correct. Anyway, my last pair of yearling Craftsman just came in from Steve at Nungar ($239.11 shipped to my door in NY). He is a gentleman and I can't recommend him enough. Mine were MTO so the turnaround time was about 6 weeks. The F width works great for me (I'm a D width in US, E width in English shoes)


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

Are RMW boots available with something like Dainite studded soles?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Here are the available types of soles:

https://imageshack.us


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

morse said:


> I'm browsing the nungar site, and was wondering if the price quoted is in Australian or US dollars


Australian dollars.

Steve is a farmer by trade and started an internet store because of the serious drought here in New South Wales. He strikes me as a genuine and decent Aussie bloke. Ever since this post Steve started selling boots like hot cakes and he is evidently devoting more time to building on his reputation as a seller. Everyone is now starting to report excellent communication and prompt shipping. He also only charges your credit card once the order is ready to ship.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

emorel98 said:


> As far as I know, Nungar is the cheapest of the two. That bootsonline price for the yearling does not sound correct. Anyway, my last pair of yearling Craftsman just came in from Steve at Nungar ($239.11 shipped to my door in NY). He is a gentleman and I can't recommend him enough. Mine were MTO so the turnaround time was about 6 weeks. The F width works great for me (I'm a D width in US, E width in English shoes)


Ed,

I presume this is the Chestnut French Veal. But what is the last and other details?

Perry


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

pkincy said:


> Ed,
> 
> I presume this is the Chestnut French Veal. But what is the last and other details?
> 
> Perry


B543 chisel toe (same as the Craftsman) in F width . The colour is called whiskey. It is a custom order only.

I recommended the whiskey leather to Ed. If you think that looks nice you ain't seen nothing yet. There is a little surprise coming. I notice most of the posters interested in high end shoes eg EG, JL seemed to have lost interest in this thread but it will raise eyebrows. Watch this space. :icon_smile:


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## SimonC (Nov 15, 2006)

Sator said:


> If you think that looks nice you ain't seen nothing yet. There is a little surprise coming.


I for one am waiting with anticipation - I stumbled across the thread and I think it provides an answer to my search for a good, but not overly expensive, boot.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Sator: did you comment in a previous post regarding experience with RM Williams Wellington boot. If so, can you comment on the fit, comfort, wearability, etc. of the boot. Is it a boot strictly reserved for equestrian activities or would it be suitable for other field wear involving more walking...and can it be had with a synthetic (vs a leather) sole?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have made an major addition to this thread. I now have pictures and a special deal offer from Steve of Nungar for a particular custom order which I am calling the Forum Special model. 

The reason for the name is that it brings together a number of features in response to a couple of valid criticisms about the standard offerings from RMW. The first was that they were insufficiently sleek. The second was that the construction lacked refinement. The result was that some have expressed concern that they were too much of a country style casual boot to be worn as a city dress boot with a suit. I have tried to address these points by putting together a configuration that brought together all of the strengths of the maker in one custom order model.

Firstly, I have chosen French veal calf. It is their best quality leather. All boots made with it look notably more refined and the leather polishes up beautifully.

Next, I decided to find a last that was the sleekest that they offered - the B529 last. To make it even sleeker, I decided to go up a 1/2 size from my usual Craftsman and drop down on width. I tried the size on, and it fit me like a glove with a very similar fit to what I subjectively get from Park Avenues (my yardstick for comparing sizes).

Lastly, I noticed that the brass screwed leather soles had almost no lip jutting out from around the edge of the shoe. The fact that RMW are one of the vanishing few RTW bootmakers around who still offer boots utilising this traditional construction method made it even more attractive. I have heard that many Austro-Hungarian bespoke bootmakers still favour the technique.

As you will see from the pictures, the results give even my John Lobb boots on the 7000 last a good run for their money.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

When I called the RM williams store in NY they told me that the heels are not made in a combination last, this concerned me as my heel is narros. Also, the AE PA is too small, narrow for me in 9.5B and too wie in 9.5C. I have not tried a 10 but think the A and B would give similar results as the B and C in the smaller size. So what does one do? How are thse in the heel for those used to wearing combination lasts, regaring slipping?

Thanks


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

guitone said:


> When I called the RM williams store in NY they told me that the heels are not made in a combination last, this concerned me as my heel is narros. Also, the AE PA is too small, narrow for me in 9.5B and too wie in 9.5C. I have not tried a 10 but think the A and B would give similar results as the B and C in the smaller size. So what does one do? How are thse in the heel for those used to wearing combination lasts, regaring slipping?
> 
> Thanks


What is a combination last? What sort of heels are you referring to?

What do you wear in an AE Nr 8 or Nr 2 last? Those are the only other AE lasts I have any experience with.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Sator said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know that I have made an major addition to this thread. I now have pictures and a special deal offer from Steve of Nungar for a particular custom order which I am calling the Forum Special model.
> 
> The reason for the name is that it brings together a number of features in response to a couple of valid criticisms about the standard offerings from RMW. The first was that they were insufficiently sleek. The second was that the construction lacked refinement. The result was that some have expressed concern that they were too much of a country style casual boot to be worn as a city dress boot with a suit. I have tried to address these points by putting together a configuration that brought together all of the strengths of the maker in one custom order model.
> 
> ...


Sator, it is the width of the heel, so in my normal width of B in an AE the heel will be an A. An AE with a D width will have a B width heel.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

guitone said:


> When I called the RM williams store in NY they told me that the heels are not made in a combination last, this concerned me as my heel is narros. Also, the AE PA is too small, narrow for me in 9.5B and too wie in 9.5C. I have not tried a 10 but think the A and B would give similar results as the B and C in the smaller size. So what does one do? How are thse in the heel for those used to wearing combination lasts, regaring slipping?
> 
> Thanks


I am still unsure if I am understanding your question adequately but one thing I can say is that Chelsea boots are a different ballgame to shoes. Even if the heels were a tad wide - it can't really slip out as long as the boot envelopes your ankles adequately.

If you can wear a 9.5B in the Nr 8 last from AE, I think a 9D in the RMW might work out as it will be a bit wider than an AE 9.5B on the Nr 5 last but narrower than a 9.5C on that last. The length will be extremely close to a size 9.5 AE Nr 8 last shoe.

However, there is no guarantee when you have a difficult size like yours. It is just a suggestion. Sorry, to have to throw in a disclaimer like that - but I cannot do a perfect size assessment over the internet.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Sator said:


> I am still unsure if I am understanding your question adequately but one thing I can say is that Chelsea boots are a different ballgame to shoes. Even if the heels were a tad wide - it can't really slip out as long as the boot envelopes your ankles adequately.
> 
> If you can wear a 9.5B in the Nr 8 last from AE, I think a 9D in the RMW might work out as it will be a bit wider than an AE 9.5B on the Nr 5 last but narrower than a 9.5C on that last. The length will be extremely close to a size 9.5 AE Nr 8 last shoe.
> 
> However, there is no guarantee when you have a difficult size like yours. It is just a suggestion. Sorry, to have to throw in a disclaimer like that - but I cannot do a perfect size assessment over the internet.


My best fits are the 1,2 and 4 last in AE, 9.5 B...the new 8 does not work for me at all and the 5 does not either.

Thanks


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

guitone said:


> My best fits are the 1,2 and 4 last in AE, 9.5 B...the new 8 does not work for me at all and the 5 does not either.
> 
> Thanks


Nrs 5 and 8 work the best for me.

The chisel toe last B543 last (the one used for the Craftsman) fits a lot like the AE Nr 2 last. My suggestion would be 9D in this last rather than B529.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Sator said:


> Nrs 5 and 8 work the best for me.
> 
> The chisel toe last B543 last (the one used for the Craftsman) fits a lot like the AE Nr 2 last. My suggestion would be 9D in this last rather than B529.


Sator, thanks....does it also work nicely for those of us how like the 4 best (that is still my favorite)? The two is not bad but sometime I feel the toe box is a bit too shallow...not shure how these boots will be.

Also, this would leave out the forum boot, althougth I am not sure it is still available anyway. The price on the forum boot sure looks good, but I guess if I order from your source in Austrailia the prices are all good.

Joel


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

guitone said:


> Also, this would leave out the forum boot, althougth I am not sure it is still available anyway. The price on the forum boot sure looks good, but I guess if I order from your source in Austrailia the prices are all good.


They are a custom order and available anytime. But if you are particular about the fit of the last, ordering over the internet will always be frought with difficulties, unless you manage to get to the NY store and try them on.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Sator said:


> They are a custom order and available anytime. But if you are particular about the fit of the last, ordering over the internet will always be frought with difficulties, unless you manage to get to the NY store and try them on.


Sator, thanks...I had planned on calling the NY store to check to see what they may have in my size....I am not sure they will carry anyting narrow enough. From what I have seen the NY shop will charge way more than your Aussie connection.


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## detang (Feb 15, 2007)

I noticed that you have Crockett & Jones sizing for your RM Williams. I had a pair but had to sell it on ebay as it didn't fit quite right. Even after 4 years of wear, it was sold for much more than I'd expected ($90). I currently wear Crockett and Jones size 7.5 on the 337 lasts (Weymouth). What would that be on the "Forum Special" boot if I wanted a slimmer more elegant shape?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Sorry I don't own anything on the C&J 337 last. It has never really appealled to me but would have posted the info if I did have a pair.


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## meister (Oct 29, 2005)

*RMs*

I took a copy of your work of art down to the George Street store for the use of the helpful staff there so that tourists could get the 'heads up' on our national iconic boot.

I explained that brilliant way you set it all up and the 'boot to order template' for foreigners unused to Aussie sizes in RMs.

They were gobsmacked that someone went to so much trouble - and grabbed it gleefully with thanks.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

meister said:


> I took a copy of your work of art down to the George Street store for the use of the helpful staff there so that tourists could get the 'heads up' on our national iconic boot.
> 
> I explained that brilliant way you set it all up and the 'boot to order template' for foreigners unused to Aussie sizes in RMs.
> 
> They were gobsmacked that someone went to so much trouble - and grabbed it gleefully with thanks.


I'm a bit worried. RMW doesn't like Steve selling their boots at such low prices. He had a monopoly on the Forum Special. Don't be surprised if they pressure him even more to raise his prices or refuse to sell to him. The people at head office won't like it one bit.


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## LeicaLad (Nov 5, 2006)

Let's hope Meister didn't blow it for both Steve and the Forum...

****
Sator,

You are clearly wise in the ways of RM Williams, among other subjects. I wish to ask a question. 

I have never been fond of the elastic-sided Chelsea, but really do appreciate RM Williams quality. On several wonderful trips to Australia, I have come away with a variety of personal purchases, a substantial majority of which were RM Williams. Moleskin pants and half a dozen shirts from the last trip, alone. BUT, no Chelsea boots. 

Your Forum Special looks very interesting, and I have really appreciated reading all your work in coming to that design. For me, a Stockman jodhpur-type boot appeals more than the Chelsea. 

My question is whether it would make any sense to order a special Stockman upper made to the Forum Special last and sole choice? 

Would this be an abomination, or something quite interesting? Perhaps, the Stockman is best seen as a set piece, true in it’s own design. Perhaps the mis-matching of parts would not make a working whole. I’m not an expert, by any stretch. I have found your descriptions of the Forum Special very appealing, and just wonder if matching it to a jodhpur upper would work?

This is a very subjective question, obviously. But I’m sure your view would be a well informed one. Other opinions welcomed, too. Thank you.


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## 69monaro (Aug 20, 2006)

Sator,

Ripper thread.

I lived on a cattle property for 10+ years in Qld and I can vouch that all bushmen have at least one pair of RM Williams' boots (and moleskins, and denim jeans). However, I had no idea that the boots were of such fine quality and were sought worldwide. If I recall, RM Williams does a poor job of marketing its products to others outside of the bush/country/outback demographic.

It would be quite a shock to many a cattlemen and farmer that a bunch of seppos/yanks in NYC were wearing these boots! I'll be placing an order soon.

Now all we need is a source for Drum, Tally-Ho's, and XXXX to complete the outback experience. 

Cheers,

69Monaro.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Sator said:


> I'm a bit worried. RMW doesn't like Steve selling their boots at such low prices. He had a monopoly on the Forum Special. Don't be surprised if they pressure him even more to raise his prices or refuse to sell to him. The people at head office won't like it one bit.


I was a bit worried about that when I read the post. I emailed Steve yesterday about my narrow foot and he is really a gentleman. I am going to send in a tracing with a sock on to see what he recommends, but he seems to agree with our good friend Sator so far...now this is a question for those of you wearing this boot, what type, thickness of sock are you using and do you recommend.

Thanks

Joel


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## alerik (Jan 27, 2006)

I'm in the UK, can the forum special with the brass screws be resoled by good cobblers, or do they have to be returned to a special RMW resoler?

I've been following this thread for ages now and I put off purchasing because of all the variables in sizing/leather/soles etc. The forum special makes it so much easier - Thank you!!!

Has anyone ordered from the UK yet? did you have to pay any import duty on receipt?

Kind regards
alerik.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I suggest either calling the London store or e-mailing Steve about the question of resoling.


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## LeicaLad (Nov 5, 2006)

And then please post what you've learned. This is a valuable question.

Thanks.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*did i miss the pics of the forum special?*

Sorry, couldnt find it. I wanted to take it to the nyc store so i could confirm sizing before any special order.....thanks

yes im a park avenue 9D, alden 9D usa


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## Hennessy (Oct 9, 2006)

I called the NYC store - the person I spoke to recommended a welted sole because no one in the States can re-sole the nailed version.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Hennessy said:


> I called the NYC store - the person I spoke to recommended a welted sole because no one in the States can re-sole the nailed version.


From reading the website is suggests dropping the shoes at any RM Williams store to have them repaired properly...seems like the NY store is failing to give good information again, too bad. From my converstaions with them, and I hate to point a finger, but as a salesprofessional, they seemed lazy.

One question though, I know Sator suggests the brass screws offer a more elegant boot, but is it that much, is the goodyear welt a good way to go that may be easier to get repaired here in the states? for those you you wearing them, what do you think?


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## Max (Mar 20, 2007)

Hello everyone, it's my first post here. I have a question for you gentlemen who wear elastic-sided boots.

I notice the hem of my trousers occasionally catches on the back pull-tab of my boots after I get up from a seat. It's rather unsightly to walk around like that during the times I'm unaware it happened. 

Is this a common occurrence for you as well? It's the only point which makes me hesitate to buy the elastic-sided RM Williams.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Max said:


> Hello everyone, it's my first post here. I have a question for you gentlemen who wear elastic-sided boots.
> I notice the hem of my trousers occasionally catches on the back pull-tab of my boots after I get up from a seat. It's rather unsightly to walk around like that during the times I'm unaware it happened.
> Is this a common occurrence for you as well? It's the only point which makes me hesitate to buy the elastic-sided RM Williams.


Max; Welcome to the forum! On several occassions I have experienced the situation you describe, when wearing my Craftsman boots. However, with the pull tab you mention being crafted of flexible fabric, it takes just a step or two for the trouser cuff to fall back over the boot heel...not a big problem from my perspective. Otherwise, the loop could be trimmed away, with the problem being solved through such surgical intervention.


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## Max (Mar 20, 2007)

Thanks for the welcome! Your experience is a little different from mine. When it happens to me, the hem of my trousers remains caught on the leather edge of the boot which attaches to the pull tab. So it's possible for me to walk around looking silly for indefinite periods of time, until I sit down again or until I notice.

Trimming the loop does indeed solve the problem! I took a sharp razor to my beloved pair of Blundstones when they finally fell apart and removed the loop. However, I really wouldn't recommend anyone doing this as it's a little unsightly, even after carefully and neatly trimming right down to the leather.


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## AlonzoMosely2 (Oct 19, 2006)

How do you get the boot on with the pull tabs removed?


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## Romualdo (Oct 18, 2005)

AlonzoMosely2 said:


> How do you get the boot on with the pull tabs removed?


Yea, I agree. How do you do that?


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## Max (Mar 20, 2007)

It's not too difficult. Try putting on your boot without using the pull tabs.

Of course using the pull tab is easier, but I really dislike walking around with my trousers hanging on the boot.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*Modification to Sizing Recommendation Based on AE PA Size*

Please note that I am making a change to the sizing recommendation for the Forum Special.

I have 3 ways of working it out:
1. Tight Fit Formula
2. Medium Fit Formula
3. Relaxed Fit Formula

A subjective 'good' fit really does depend on personal preference so this you a range of choices.

*Working Out Your Forum Special Size Based on Allen Edmonds Park Avenues*

Here is the _*Tight Fit Formula*_ I have used to work out my own sizing. It works perfectly for me although the result is a skin tight boot, that is about a quarter size tighter than my Park Avenues:

AE PA size minus 0.5 but drop down 2 widths from your usual width

Example:

If you wear AE 10EEE your RMW size is 9.5H
If you wear AE 10EE your RMW size is 9.5G (medium)
If you wear AE 10E = RMW 9.5F
If you wear AE 10D (medium) = RMW 9.5E
If you wear AE 10C = RMW 9.5D
If you wear AE 10B = RMW 9.5C

In my case I wear AE PA 8D so I ordered an RMW 7.5E

Remember, I can only guarantee reasonable success when you order in the French veal calf. The yearling is thicker and less supple/stretchy and will feel up to a half size narrower. The kangaroo is even stretchier than the veal calf.

The only potential problem I can forsee (you will get to see objective measurements for yourself soon) is the Forum Special measures a fraction a narrower than my Park Avenues. If you want a medium fit (especially if your PAs are quite snug side to side) then you should use this formula. I will call this the *Medium Fit Formula*.

AE PA size minus 0.5 and go down a width.

Example:

If you wear AE 10EE your RMW size is 9.5H
If you wear AE 10E = RMW 9.5G (medium)
If you wear AE 10D (medium) = RMW 9.5F
If you wear AE 10C = RMW 9.5E
If you wear AE 10B = RMW 9.5D

Here is a comparison of the lengths of the Forum Special in RMW 7.5E vs an AE Park Ave 8D:

https://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forumspecialvspasidewayyz5.jpg

Here is a close up of the tips of the toes. You can see that the AE Nr 5 last is a very long nosed extended last:

https://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forumspecialvspalengthsyh6.jpg

Remember, those of you happily wearing the Craftsman in AE PA size minus one will be wearing even shorter boots than this.

Here is a comparison of the widths. I am using calipers to compare widths. I set the calipers at the maximum width of the PAs:

https://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pascalipersrb0.jpg

Then I take the calipers set at that width over to the Forum Specials:

https://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b529vspawidthcalipersdn7.jpg

Notice that there is a gap of about 3 millimetres, showing that the PA measure wider. Though the Forum Special is narrower, the subjective sensation is one of a very similar fit to the PAs shown. I think the RMW has softer leather and the last has more volume vertically over the vamp. My 8D PAs are quite snug on me, especially sideways. The Forum Special definitely feels wider than AE 8Cs, which are way too narrow for me to fit into without pain.

OK, maybe the Forum Special feels subjectively just a tiny fraction narrower and quite snug around the ankles. But I like that feel of ankle support and the leather is already soft and supple brand new. As they get broken in that snugness should gradually ease off.

If you have concerns about the faint narrowness and shortness relative to PAs of the Forum Special in my Standard Formula, you could order a Forum Special using *the Relaxed Fit Formula*:

Your the _same_ size as your AE PA size but drop down 2 widths from your usual width

Example:

If you wear AE 10EEE your RMW size is 10H
If you wear AE 10EE your RMW size is 10G (medium)
If you wear AE 10E => RMW 10F
If you wear AE 10D (medium) => RMW 10E
If you wear AE 10C => RMW 10D
If you wear AE 10B => RMW 10C

This is what Steve is recommending to most of his buyers now. If should result in a comfortable but slightly more relaxed fit.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

For all of you who have had trouble over the last week with contacting Steve via email, he tells me he had a server crash and he is now scrambling to catch up.


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## matty (May 11, 2007)

Hi people, first time poster here. I stumbled across this forum by accident a few weeks ago and I must say I'm amazed!
Thing is, I happen to work for RM Williams, making the very boots you are talking about. I was just discussing the fact with the production manager the other day that we seem to be making a lot of narrow fitting screw soled boots with veal calf leather lately (this is quite an unusual combination for us by the way). Now we think we know the reason why!
If there is anything you need to know about RM Williams boots, ask away and I'll try my best to answer.
Whoever ordered the 9G's in Whiskey yearling, I finished 'em this morning!:icon_smile_big:


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

matty said:


> Hi people, first time poster here. I stumbled across this forum by accident a few weeks ago and I must say I'm amazed!
> Thing is, I happen to work for RM Williams, making the very boots you are talking about. I was just discussing the fact with the production manager the other day that we seem to be making a lot of narrow fitting screw soled boots with veal calf leather lately (this is quite an unusual combination for us by the way). Now we think we know the reason why!
> If there is anything you need to know about RM Williams boots, ask away and I'll try my best to answer.
> Whoever ordered the 9G's in Whiskey yearling, I finished 'em this morning!:icon_smile_big:


Welcome! Well, I guess it was only a matter of time before someone from RM Williams discovered my post.

Can I say please look on this thread in a positive light because it is doing _*enormous*_ good for the reputation of RM Williams internationally. I know the sales guys at the company frown on internet sellers like Nungar but for every guy who buys online there are others who buy at the London or New York store. It all helps to spread the good word and grow the worldwide reputation of the company.

As to why I am recommending these narrow last it is simple. RM Williams last run a bit short and widish. I think the legacy is partly related to the fact that RMW lasts are quite English but with an Aussie country-styled flavour. Some very fine English lasts such as the Edward Green 202 last are also a bit short and widish, although that last has an exceptionally elegant form by way of compensation. Some guys complained of a lack of sleekness and I found that the B529 last has a wide range of widths. If you go up a size and drop down a width your boot gets made on an 'elongated last' which looks sleeker making it a much finer dress boot.

Anyway, I have a few questions.

Has RM Williams ever thought of making a high end range of boots for the international market? I mean something that would compete in terms of its finish with either something midrange such as Crockett and Jones (around twice the standard retail price of RMWs) or even the upper high-end Edward Green (start at about $1200 AUD a pair) or John Lobb Paris (start at around $1500 AUD). It would involve more expensive calf leathers eg high end box calf, finer stitching, and a more polished finish including more refined channel stitching on the soles. Nb most high end makers sell most of their shoes in Japan which is one market I noticed RMWs hasn't broken into yet (why I wonder...). RMWs does have Chelseas made of crocodile but the finish and construction are the same standard as the Craftsman.

How much more Whiskey yearling do you guys have? It is really popular here. They guys can't get enough of it but I hear it was seasonal stock and that when it runs out it's gone.

I have seen the Biscuit coloured suede but are you guys getting in any other interesting seasonal leathers?

Anyway, RMWs makes one hell of a good value for money Chelsea boot. Keep up the good work. RMWs is a real Aussie icon!


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

double post


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

matty said:


> Whoever ordered the 9G's in Whiskey yearling, I finished 'em this morning!:icon_smile_big:


Does this mean that each pair is followed from start to finish by one pair of hands? I am devoted to my chestnut kangaroo craftsman boots, a Christmas gift that I have worn in total comfort from the first hour. Congratulations on making such a fine boot.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*NYC Store reliablity???*



matty said:


> Hi people, first time poster here. I stumbled across this forum by accident a few weeks ago and I must say I'm amazed!
> Thing is, I happen to work for RM Williams, making the very boots you are talking about. I was just discussing the fact with the production manager the other day that we seem to be making a lot of narrow fitting screw soled boots with veal calf leather lately (this is quite an unusual combination for us by the way). Now we think we know the reason why!
> If there is anything you need to know about RM Williams boots, ask away and I'll try my best to answer.
> Whoever ordered the 9G's in Whiskey yearling, I finished 'em this morning!:icon_smile_big:


Welcome to the forum. As noted it willl be great if the forum has a liason with RMW. As you can tell folks in this forum have a soft spot for hand crafted, artisanal, high quality products. Particulary products with real history (as opposed to say CT shirts)

One a more selfish note, I really want to try the Forum special but figured Id start with a basic craftsman to get sizing down pat. I special ordered a pair of Whiskey via NYC store. Can I rely on them, there have been reports here and on SF of poor service and failure to follow through.


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## matty (May 11, 2007)

Sator, I definately see your posts in a positive light, in a way I guess it's a bit flattering to hear and read comments like these about our handiwork!
I suppose I'm not really qualified to answer some of your questions regarding the making of a "high end boot", sounds like a good idea though.
As for the Whiskey yearling, you'll be pleased to know that, owing to it's popularity, it is now going to be an ongoing option.
The Biscuit coloured leather is actually a "distressed leather", not really a suede. There is another very similar "distressed" colour called Silt, which is slightly darker with a bit of a greyish tinge.
A new colour being added to the lineup is Chocolate in yearling and suede. The yearling is a very dark chestnut colour (almost black I suppose) and these boots will also feature a much darker elastic as well.
Well-kept, no, the boots aren't followed from start to finish by one person, there are approx. 75-80 people working here, and most would handle each boot at some stage.
Hope this helps.:icon_smile_wink:


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

matty said:


> As for the Whiskey yearling, you'll be pleased to know that, owing to it's popularity, it is now going to be an ongoing option.
> The Biscuit coloured leather is actually a "distressed leather", not really a suede. There is another very similar "distressed" colour called Silt, which is slightly darker with a bit of a greyish tinge.
> A new colour being added to the lineup is Chocolate in yearling and suede. The yearling is a very dark chestnut colour (almost black I suppose) and these boots will also feature a much darker elastic as well.
> Well-kept, no, the boots aren't followed from start to finish by one person, there are approx. 75-80 people working here, and most would handle each boot at some stage.


So I guess this chart of the number of steps involved in the making of shoes/boots taken from a German book on high end shoes is accurate then?

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3894792523/

I am glad that the Whiskey is now a regular offering. It's a lovely colour which rapidly gains a very rich patina. The other ones will be interesting to take a look at as well. The Chocolate sounds yummy.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*Two RM williams in one day!*

Well i got a call from the nyc rm williams store that my whiskey comfort craftsman were here so i picked um up yesterday. About 5 weeks total time from order to delivery. They are very unique color.

Got home with the boots and low and behold a box from steve at nugar was waiting on the same day. These were the chesnut forum specials that i ordered as back up because the nyc store did not enstill confidence at the time of ordering. Anyway here they are, less then a month to nyc, out of the blue.

The FSM came with nice bags, a 20 percent off coupon and a free rm williams branded conditioner/polish. The craftsman direct from the store, were higher priced and came in an empty box. Guess where i would order from next?

They are interesting to see side by side.....And both have different feels. The special model is sleek, more "glovelike". While the comfort is a more robust thicker grade leather. The comfort is of course, squishier in the sole.
The rubber sole is ugly but does not seem to be a visual factor unless looking directly from underneath. The whiskey color is as said before special.

Wore the comfort craftsman around the home in gym shorts last night to break them in-much to the horror of my wife and children. Despite this hideous site, my five year old daughter wanted a pair for herself. But purple. ( ill get her the blundstones). My wife is too scared to speak, having grown up in the 70's she knows what shorts and boots means (lol)

Well i havent even worn the FSM yet but count me as a new rm williams fan. I must give thanks to sator as this model is really very very different then the craftsman.


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## Tom Bell-Drier (Mar 1, 2006)

In australia and New zealand it is a very common sight to see a jodphur/elastic sided boot yes even RM williams with shorts.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*Sizing help, yet again*

Hi all. This is a cross post form SF sorry i apologize in advance to those who read both forums. Last month I purchased a whiskey comfort craftsman in 8F and a forum special in an 8.5F. I am having difficulty with the toe box on the Craftsman. Rubbing in the right shoe, side and top. I cant really tell if its too short or not high enough or both. In contrast the FSM fit well.

I would like to replace the whiskey. Givens Stators recent updates which state that up a half size will not help the length im a bit confused as to which size to order. Up a full size to 9F? or up a full size to 9 and drop down to an E width....Note i have already dropped a width from my usual 9D usa.

or up a half size and hope the width solves the toe problem.

Thanks again all.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*Bump*



kbuzz said:


> Hi all. This is a cross post form SF sorry i apologize in advance to those who read both forums. Last month I purchased a whiskey comfort craftsman in 8F and a forum special in an 8.5F. I am having difficulty with the toe box on the Craftsman. Rubbing in the right shoe, side and top. I cant really tell if its too short or not high enough or both. In contrast the FSM fit well.
> 
> I would like to replace the whiskey. Givens Stators recent updates which state that up a half size will not help the length im a bit confused as to which size to order. Up a full size to 9F? or up a full size to 9 and drop down to an E width....Note i have already dropped a width from my usual 9D usa.
> 
> ...


Anyone?


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## sbaker (Aug 9, 2007)

*color selection*

Hello;

I am looking for the RM Williams color that would be the closest to Cordovan... ( a dark maroon).... I have ordered a pair of Balmorals in Black from Steve, but want a pair of Stockman's in cordovan.. The brown or red as not close at all. I can't tell if Chestnut is close, Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks

Sam
Dallas,TX


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I'd have to go into the RMW store to look at their swatch book, but I don't recall anything that really counts as "cordovan coloured". However, chestnut is closer though nowhere as ruddy.


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## smlaz (May 13, 2005)

This is brilliant! Thank you Sator. I've been wearing RMWs since 1999 (Craftsman and Turnout in kanga, Tambo in yearling, and Mallee) and am quite pleased to see the forum specials. You're a man after my own heart - er, feet.
Cheers,
Steve


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## Calle (Jun 5, 2008)

In October last year I bought a pair of brown Yard Boots and now I'm thinking of buying me another pair from this excellent company. The Turnout model seems like a good one and besides the chisel toe The Craftsman also looks great.

The material I'm leaning towards is brown suede or whiskey colored leather (how will the bright leather react with water dash, will it get dark spots ?). How much water will a pair of suede RMW resist? I won't jump around in water puddles, but can they handle a fairly large rain with the aid from an umbrella?

What are your thoughts about the comfort versions of the boots by the way? 

Thanks

Carl


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

Sator great post about a wonderful boot which I have been wearing for the past 25 years, and this week I'm going to pick up a new pair of Comfort Craftsman.


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## cvac (Aug 6, 2006)

I'm interested in the veal chesnut forum special boot but I have a couple of questions. 

First, does anyone have a pic of the boot in chesnut that they wouldn't mind posting?

Second, I have problems with heel slip on some shoes but not on the AE park ave in an 8.5 D when I lace them up (not super tight, but still fairly tight). 

What size would you recommend for me? My feet are oddly shaped b/c my heel is narrower than my forefoot. I don't want a pair of shoes that slips yet I don't want a pair that is cutting off circulation across the toes and instep.

Thanks.


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## cvac (Aug 6, 2006)

bump.


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## Mugnut (Sep 27, 2007)

Has anyone received definitive confirmation from RMW that lengths increase only in whole size increments, with .5 sizes representing only width increases? Viz., is an 8.5G really just an 8H -- or something different? If length only changes in whole sizes, then does that mean an 8.5F is really just an 8G? It's very confusing . . .

It seems from my experience that dropping down a whole size from equivalent U.S. length yields a shoe that is more like 1.5 sizes down in equivalent US in length? I.e., I wear 9D in U.S., but an 8G fits much more like a US 8.5D than a US 9D. It almost seems that you could go 1 for 1 with your U.S. size to get the length right and use socks/insoles to fill up excess volume . . . which is totally contrary to all sizing recommendations currently available.

I've tried emailing RMW directly on this issue but it was bounced back.


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## AdamInSF (May 14, 2008)

I normally wear a US size 13D, and my RMW yard boots (different last than the Craftsmen or the forum special) are a 12G. Length is perfect, although it's fairly high-volume, which I address with an insole.

A local store carries Craftsmen, albeit at a truly shocking price, and I verified that for me a 12G fits nicely, and shouldn't require an insole.

No idea on Sator's recommendation for longer/narrower sizing, as RMW doesn't make an AUS size 13 for me to try.

cvac: I have a pair of chestnut french veal Craftsmen (not the forum special) shipping from Nungar in a day or two - I can post pics if it's the color you're interested in, rather than the shape.


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## Arache (Oct 26, 2008)

Have anyone heard from Nungar (Steve) lately? I have tried to order one by emailing him, we went back and forth discussing the option, but then he just sort off dissapeared and further emails went unreplied. The last contact I had with him was about 4 months ago, and phone calls to his cell doesn't get picked up.


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## Xyst (Jan 17, 2010)

*Turnout Width question*

Nothing like bringing back an old thread, but I figured this was the best place to ask.

I wear a EEE width in dress shoes (4E in running shoes) and tried the Comfort Turnout G at the New York store last week. I was told by the sales staff that the unlike other models, the Turnout G was actually wider than the H. Needless to say, the G was a miserable failure and painfully to narrow for me to wear. They are going to call home to Oz this week and have some one check to see if H is really wider than G, and I asked if they would confirm the same about an X width as well. The sizing doesn't seem to make sense to me, but I wanted to run it past the pros for help.

Has any one had experience with the wider widths? H or X in the Comfort Turnout or other models?

Thanks so much y'all!
Xyst


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

I take a 10H in the Comfort Turnouts, I have the same issue the G is too tight. But in the Comfort Craftsman Kangaroo I got a 10G the reason being the softness of the leather and its a very snug fit the 10H had too much room to move. 
Hope this helps.


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## Xyst (Jan 17, 2010)

ajo said:


> I take a 10H in the Comfort Turnouts, I have the same issue the G is too tight. But in the Comfort Craftsman Kangaroo I got a 10G the reason being the softness of the leather and its a very snug fit the 10H had too much room to move.
> Hope this helps.


Thanks ajo, what size width do you normally wear in a US shoe? D, E, EE, EEE, etc?


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

Xyst said:


> Thanks ajo, what size width do you normally wear in a US shoe? D, E, EE, EEE, etc?


This is the great Mystery of my life. And until I find a Brannock Device I am afraid it will remain a Mystrey. And its also why I have five pairs of RM Boots and Chukkas.


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## Xyst (Jan 17, 2010)

I suupose if you're really that curious...


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## Xyst (Jan 17, 2010)

*Extra Wide Feet need really wide shoes/boots*

There are two boots that RM Williams makes that fit EEE and EEEE sized feet. Currently they are the Queenslander and the Tambo. From what I can tell, the Queenslander has a slightly rounder toe than the Tambo. I did get the chance to try on the Queenslander in a 9X AUS today (I typically wear a 9.5EEE in AE dress and casual shoes). The length was about perfect, but the width was lightly wider than my foot needed. Because of the way the boot fits though, the top leather held my foot comfortably in place without any slip or wiggle, so-to-speak. I was so pleased with the fit, I have ordered a pair of Comfort Queenslanders to be my everyday boot. Happy to answer any questions from curious, wide footed brethren.

Xyst


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## goody14 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Forum Special Model Still Available?*

Does anyone know if the Forum Special Model and discount are still available from the nungar.com website? I'm definitely interested in a pair in black...


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## Naive. Jr. (Dec 4, 2008)

goody14 said:


> Does anyone know if the Forum Special Model and discount are still available from the nungar.com website? I'm definitely interested in a pair in black...


You might ask Sator - he is the initiator. He just wrote me he hasn't been busy with Williams for awhile.


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## Tgivnish (Dec 6, 2013)

I realize I'm responding to an old post but the size recommendations were 'spot-on'. I would NOT have ordered the size I did if I didn't read this post. I would have been off at least one full size. Take the leap of faith and use these guidelines.


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## Tgivnish (Dec 6, 2013)

In reference to RM Williams Craftsman, kangaroo leather fit, I ordered size 8H. I followed the, albeit old post, exactly. My normal size in AE Park Ave. is 9EEE, Crockett/Jones 9UK D, Alden's Aberdeen last, 93E. You get the idea. I dropped a full size.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

To revive a long dormant thread does anyone have recommendations for a cream or polish color for me Williams whiskey? Thanks


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