# Everybody's favorite game: Shell or Not Shell? (Warning: Big Pics)



## Cardinals5

I picked these up for a song on eBay this morning assuming that they're shell, but the maker, Lotus, is rather obscure (not know for making shell). I decided to take a chance since the depth of color around the toe seems to indicate shell - if they're not shell at least I'm not out much.

What does the forum think - shell or not shell?

Any hints on how to repair/stop the cracking on the side of the toe in the third picture?

Lotus (Made in England) Burgundy PTBs


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## smujd

Shell.


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## AAF-8AF

I say shell based upon: creasing, color, splotchy patterns under translucent finish, and lack of evident grain or pore structure. Can't help with the cracking, but some conditioner might be good if it's getting dry.
.
.


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## Reds & Tops

I vote very, very dry shell. Second AAF's comment on conditioner; these shoes need some care.


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## Patrick06790

This gives new meaning to the term "shell game."

Ahahahahaha

Looks like shell to me, based on creasing.


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## 127.72 MHz

My guess is shell too. I've seen old shoes with years of polish on them, not to imply they've been abused, look almost like shell.

To me the only definitive give away is the heavy creasing indicative of the horsey.


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## WindsorNot

Lucky. I was watching those as well. My guess was not shell due to the look of the leather. The creasing indicates shell, but the leather does not have the dense look of shell. Please let us know, as I was curious myself.


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## Cardinals5

Thanks fellows for confirming my suspicion that these are shell.

Any recommendations for conditioners for shell that have become dry? I have a couple of pairs of shells that are 20-30 years old and probably need some conditioner, but I've been afraid of ruining the finish by using conditioners made for calf. I've just maintained them using the MacMethod.

I've read recommendations for AE's shell cordovan cream, but no one mentioned whether this will work for dried out shell.


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## Cardinals5

WindsorNot said:


> Lucky. I was watching those as well. My guess was not shell due to the look of the leather. The creasing indicates shell, but the leather does not have the dense look of shell. Please let us know, as I was curious myself.


Will do WindsorNot - my first instinct was the same as yours (not shell) and probably just abused old calf, but the depth of color on the toes and the speckled effect, which I also have on my shell longwings, along with the full leather heels convinced me to buy them on a whim. I'll update the thread (with pics) when I receive the shoes.

With my luck they'll be shell, but the 8.5 size will be British sizing :icon_pale:


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## srivats

Definitely shell. Needs plenty of TLC to get it back to glory (if it is not dried out from the inside).


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## Cardinals5

I'm currently going drastic on a pair of Alden shell full-strap loafers I fished off eBay for $20 that were also drying out. I'm giving them Lexol Conditioner on one shoe to see the results (N. Horween suggested this method in another thread). These full-strap loafers are going back to Alden for a recraft anyway so I thought I'd see what the shell can handle.

I'll report back as to whether they take a good shine after the conditioner.


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## Got Shell?

SHELL


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## Coleman

Now that I'm home, and I can see the pics, my vote is shell also. Despite the bit o' cracking they still look nice. Rock those shells! :aportnoy:


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## Cardinals5

I used Lexol Conditioner on my beat up Alden shell full strap loafers - I applied a thin coat using a soft cotton rag - and after waiting a few hours gave them a good rubbing with an old athletic sock. The Conditioner seems to have darkened them just a hair (hardly noticeable) and the shine came back without much trouble. The shell does seem more flexible/pliable after the conditioner. I probably wouldn't use this treatment on new shells, but for those that weren't well cared for (eBay finds) and are showing signs of cracking I think it works well.

I'll take before and after pics of the above PTBs after I receive them and give them a treatment with the Lexol Conditioner.


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## Benzito

I bought some old Florsheims and used AE cordovan creme. Mine didn't have the cracking like that, but there was a bit of dryness in the crease (don't you hate that - shoes or otherwise?). Seemed to work pretty well.


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## cecil47

I hate to sound like a greenie, but I am what I am when it comes to shell. Can someone point out the defining characteristics of shell to look for in photos?


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## Cardinals5

cecil47 said:


> I hate to sound like a greenie, but I am what I am when it comes to shell. Can someone point out the defining characteristics of shell to look for in photos?


As evidenced by the plethora of "shell or not shell" threads it is frequently quite difficult to determine whether shoes are shell just from photographs. That said, an eye for shell cordovan can often lead, if you're willing to wear used shoes or have them refurbished, extremely cheap shell shoes (all four pair of my shells were snatched from eBay for under $50 shipped because the seller didn't realize they were shell).

Here's what I look for:
1. Distictive shell ripples/waves on the vamp.
2. Lack of micro-creasing anywhere on the shoe.
3. The special glow/shine of shell cordovan
4. Depth of color on toes (if pics are good enough as above)
5. A certain puffiness around eyelets/brouging
6. The general overall quality of the shoe/sole - shells were never cheap
7. What company manufactured the shoe (not always a great indicator since many companies, such as the Lotus shoes above, used to make shells but no one knows it)

Look at a lot of old shells - Uncle Mac's are actually bad examples - that have significant wear and you'll get used to the distinctive look of aged shell cordovan, then you can skim through eBay's offerings fairly quickly and the shell candidates will jump out at you (there are lots of unmarked shells on eBay).


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## Cardinals5

Here's a pair of shells currently on eBay that aren't listed as shell. The obvious markers on this pair are the distinctive ripples on the vamp (no micro-creases), the general glow of the shoes, and the way the light shines around the eyelets indicating a certain puffiness.


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## cecil47

Cardinals5 said:


> Look at a lot of old shells - Uncle Mac's are actually bad examples - that have significant wear and you'll get used to the distinctive look of aged shell cordovan, then you can skim through eBay's offerings fairly quickly and the shell candidates will jump out at you (there are lots of unmarked shells on eBay).


If I could find a pair like Uncle Mac's, I'd probably fall over dead!

Thanks very much, your primer is very helpful. I had already noticed the ripple/creasing markers, but not the other more subtle nuances.


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## AlanC

I look forward to seeing pics when you get them. Congrats on the buy.

Cecil, once you see and handle some shell shoes in person it's a lot easier to recognize them in pictures. It's more of an art than a science, but once you 'get it' they're pretty easy to recognize (given the right pics).


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## JayJay

Nice find, and they're definitely shell.


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## chacend

Not to hijack but since we're playing this game, what about these?


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## Cardinals5

chacend said:


> Not to hijack but since we're playing this game, what about these?


I'd say definitely not since those are in my size and I've always wanted a pair of Hanover shell Sheppards :devil: Not to confuse - those are almost certainly shell.


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## Cardinals5

Turns out the Lotus shoes are definintely shell and not as dry as first suspected - I'm currently giving them a good cleaning and polishing. Unfortunately, as I suspected, they are 8.5 UK size and therefore at least 1 size too large for me. You'll see them on the thrift exchange in a couple of days.


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## nhorween

Cardinals5 said:


> I'm giving them Lexol Conditioner on one shoe to see the results (N. Horween suggested this method in another thread).


Be careful with Lexol, and any other product, that has solvent in it. There are definitely times and places where it's needed, but always test a small portion of the shoe first (the inside heel is good).

In my experience, the best polishes and products have a sweet, waxy, or almost food like smell. The stuff with solvents smells like you'd think - turpentine or acetone.


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## Cardinals5

nhorween said:


> Be careful with Lexol, and any other product, that has solvent in it. There are definitely times and places where it's needed, but always test a small portion of the shoe first (the inside heel is good).
> 
> In my experience, the best polishes and products have a sweet, waxy, or almost food like smell. The stuff with solvents smells like you'd think - turpentine or acetone.


Mr. Horween, thanks for responding to this thread. Do you have any specific recommendations for products that would help condition/lotion old and dry shell shoes? I think other forum members would also be interested in such recommendations.


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## gtnc

I haven't had the cracks that you show, but on weathered shoes, I have gotten good results using AE's cordovan care cream.


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## nhorween

Cardinals5 said:


> Do you have any specific recommendations for products that would help condition/lotion old and dry shell shoes?


Many swear by Renovateur (Saphir), but my personal recommendation for conditioning shell (when it seldom needs it) is Venetian Creme.


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## bandofoutsiders

Could these be shell?


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## AAF-8AF

bandofoutsiders said:


> Could these be shell?


The ripples in the creasing look too fine for shell. I'll say no.
.
.


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## Cardinals5

I vote no - the creasing looks like corrected grain. I have a very similar pair of Florsheim CG black longwings and the creasing looks identical.


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## gman-17

bandofoutsiders said:


> Could these be shell?


I would bet a good steak dinner that they are not shell.


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## Got Shell?

I can say with 100% certainty, those are not shell.


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## Cardinals5

Shellmen, here's a nice ambiguous pic for you. The picture comes from an eBay ad and I already know whether they're shell or not, but thought it might be fun just to play our game.


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## eagle2250

^^
Unless my eyes are deceiving me this AM, there appears to be very fine (or micro) creasing on the right shoe...although, I cannot really tell on the left shoe. My guess is that those shoes are calf, Cardinals5. :icon_scratch:


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## Got Shell?

Those aren't shell. On a side note, that is not a shoe style I would expect to see in shell.


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## Cardinals5

Got Shell? said:


> Those aren't shell. On a side note, that is not a shoe style I would expect to see in shell.


I'm fairly certain I've seen wingtip tassels in shell before, but can't find a pic right now.

How about these?


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## Orgetorix

I'm gonna say no on both pairs of tassels. The first is pretty clearly CG, to me. The second pair is more difficult, but I still don't think it's shell.


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## Got Shell?

No to the second pair also.


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## mcarthur

no on both pairs


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## Cardinals5

Okay, I've had my fun. The first pair is corrected grain, but the second is shell cordovan. Here's the insole of the second pair


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## Got Shell?

Criminal! If there is any consolation, its that you tricked MAC too.


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## Cardinals5

Got Shell? said:


> Criminal! If there is any consolation, its that you tricked MAC too.


:icon_smile_big: I viciously selected that second pair because they're such a strange looking model and they lack the distinctive shell waves. If anyone's interested, the second pair is selling on eBay (not mine), but they're something like a 10.5B


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## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> :icon_smile_big: I viciously selected that second pair because they're such a strange looking model and they lack the distinctive shell waves. If anyone's interested, the second pair is selling on eBay (not mine), but they're something like a 10.5B


the label states that the shoes are shell does not make the shoes shell leather.


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## Got Shell?

The reason I answered not shell was because I was sure I saw micro creasing, and the leather is nowhere near as smooth as most shell where the light is reflecting on it. It just doesn't seem to have that smooth luxurious texture most shell does. They are an unusual color though.


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## recoveringchef

*I'm guessing no, but...*

These are listed on eBay. I don't think they're real shell, but I probably wouldn't know either way. Any thoughts on these shoes?


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## AdamsSutherland

No.

Not even close.

The only instance of any "grained" shell shoes I've ever seen is from Alden. Mac has a pair of pebble grained #8 shell boots. Wingtips if I recall correctly.

That being said, they are a classic, good looking pair of shoes.


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## Georgia

recoveringchef said:


> These are listed on eBay. I don't think they're real shell, but I probably wouldn't know either way. Any thoughts on these shoes?


Not shell.


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## recoveringchef

I tried to do a search in the forums for an explanation of "grained" leather with no success. Would anyone here mind providing a brief explanation about what to look for?


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## Cardinals5

Pebble-grain, alpine grain, and etc., have all had the impression of small bumps impressed into the leather. Pebble-grained shoes are generally considered more suitable for casual/country looks

Smooth shell cordovan

Pebble-grained calfskin


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## The Rambler

Have you tried putting lexol, or in more extreme cases, leather therapy on the inside of the shoe? Cards, too bad about the size


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## The Deacon

Cardinals5 said:


> I'm fairly certain I've seen wingtip tassels in shell before, but can't find a pic right now.
> 
> How about these?


I have these but much used and I thought about doing a similar test/poll, I'll post a pic later this week. They crease in a way that would have you doubt they are shell but the leather on mine, with the identical inner heel pad, is shell cordovan.


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## Cardinals5

We haven't played in a while. I just posted these in the eBay thread. I'm about 90% sure they are shell, but just curious about other opinions.

Florsheim Imperial v-cleats, 11D


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## srivats

^ shell, no doubt


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## boatshoe

Card, you're not an 11D, are you?


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## Cardinals5

Nope, not an 11D, but I like finding affordable unmarked shells for other forumites.


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## mcarthur

^^ i vote for shell


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## boatshoe

Cardinals5 said:


> Nope, not an 11D, but I like finding affordable unmarked shells for other forumites.


Good man.


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## Got Shell?

Those are 100% unadulterated shell. Cards, kudos for your humanitarian efforts of putting cheap shells on the feet of forumites. Hear hear!


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## mat135

Yes, it is shell.


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## maximar

Shell.


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## TommyDawg

Hey, I want to play! I dont have a pic  but curious if Footjoy, cordovan colored loafer, back when made in usa, might be shell? Did they make shell? Also, how long ago did they make their loafers still in the US? Thanks much for the help!
Tom


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## AlanC

^Footjoy made shoes in the USA until just a couple of years ago. It's _possible_ that they might be shell, but pics would tell the tale.


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## TommyDawg

AlanC said:


> ^Footjoy made shoes in the USA until just a couple of years ago. It's _possible_ that they might be shell, but pics would tell the tale.


 Hey, I got one.


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## eagle2250

^^
TommyDawg: Those are definitely calf...not shell!


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## Cardinals5

Not shell, but nice looking loafers.


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## maximar

Almost shell.


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## TommyDawg

maximar said:


> Almost shell.


I like that!


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## chacend

Cardinals5 said:


> Nope, not an 11D, but I like finding affordable unmarked shells for other forumites.


Except for those of us that share his size!


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## Cardinals5

chacend said:


> Except for those of us that share his size!


You work and I'll hunt for shells :icon_smile_wink:


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## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> You work and I'll hunt for shells :icon_smile_wink:


thank you for your efforts


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## Cardinals5

Thought these might be shells (AE Sanford, 8.5D), but e-mailed with the seller and found out that the model number is 5237 (Polished Cobbler) and not 5287 (Black Cherry shell). Just putting them here so no one makes a mistake thinking these are shell.


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## Cardinals5

Not my size nor my auction.

In my usual hunt for unmarked shell I came across these Hanover LB Sheppard black ptbs. They look like unmarked shell, but I'm not 100% positive. What says the forum consensus (this is the only pic in the auction)









For anyone who's interested, they're size 9.5C


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## eagle2250

^^ 
From what I can see, my guess is shell. Abused and long-neglected perhaps, but, shell none-the-less!


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## mcarthur

looks like shell!


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## The Rambler

mcarthur said:


> looks like shell!


typo, eh? was it 'looks like hell?':icon_smile_big: looks like shell to me, too.


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## Cardinals5

The Rambler said:


> typo, eh? was it 'looks like hell?':icon_smile_big:


I didn't say they were pretty :icon_smile_wink: I bet with a serious application of the MacMethod they might look fairly good.


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## ArtVandalay

Poor photographs, seller says those are the best he could take. Says they were made in the USA and he only wore them 5 or 6 times and had been sitting in his closet ever since and were "very expensive" when he bought them. The pictures look to me like they may be shell, but I'm hoping a better trained eye would have a better idea. This will determine whether or not I bid.


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## Cardinals5

^^ Can't tell from those pics- they're the last generation of made in USA Florsheims (they were still making shell), but also produced a lot of corrected grain during that period and since. On the other hand, that seller is also selling Aldens that appear to be shell for BIN $49.


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## ArtVandalay

Do you think both pair of the Aldens are shell? Kinda interested in the pennies...


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## Cardinals5

ArtVandalay said:


> Do you think both pair of the Aldens are shell? Kinda interested in the pennies...


I'd guess the full strap pennies are indeed shell (appears to be some creasing, but the glow says shell) - but be careful because those appear to have been fully resoled (maybe just a 1/2 sole) by an outside cobbler and look like they're ready for another resole. The Aberdeen last can also be tricky - many go 1/2 size down.


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## The Deacon

the Florsheims are Heritage Calf # 17109-01, the Aldens are shell and have a scuff on right toe. Looks like a bad scuff, but hard to tell for sure with the blurry pic.


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## Orgetorix

What say ye?


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## Pentheos

Orgetorix said:


> What say ye?


A tough one. I'd say no. The leather does look quite thick enough to be shell. But since they've never been worn, there are no folds or creases. If you're interested in them, buy them, as the seller has a return policy.


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit

Orgetorix said:


> What say ye?


They look like it to me... but the way I see it, even the BIN is a great price for a pair of calf shoes of that caliber, so it's a win/win.


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## Cardinals5

Allllll Aboard, next stop Shellville. I'd conservatively say those have a 95% chance of being shell - it's the texture on the vamp and the small mark on the vamp in this picture on the left that looks like a dent in shell.


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## ArtVandalay

Cardinals5 said:


> I'd guess the full strap pennies are indeed shell (appears to be some creasing, but the glow says shell) - but be careful because those appear to have been fully resoled (maybe just a 1/2 sole) by an outside cobbler and look like they're ready for another resole. The Aberdeen last can also be tricky - many go 1/2 size down.


The black Alden pennies came yesterday and are not shell. Anyone interested in some 13D Black Alden pennies?


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## Cardinals5

ArtVandalay said:


> The black Alden pennies came yesterday and are not shell. Anyone interested in some 13D Black Alden pennies?


Sorry to hear that - I hate when sellers post such bad pictures of their shoes (and when I'm wrong and others trusted my opinion).


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## ArtVandalay

Ah well, you win some you lose some.


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## Orgetorix

My Pet said:


> They look like it to me... but the way I see it, even the BIN is a great price for a pair of calf shoes of that caliber, so it's a win/win.





Cardinals5 said:


> Allllll Aboard, next stop Shellville. I'd conservatively say those have a 95% chance of being shell - it's the texture on the vamp and the small mark on the vamp in this picture on the left that looks like a dent in shell.
> 
> https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/0/2/3/6/2/5/webimg/396555584_o.jpg


Glad somebody got a good deal on them. They weren't my size; I just posted them for educational purposes. Wouldn't have posted the link if I'd been considering them.


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## fiddler

I'm pretty sure these are shell. Interesting patina.


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## g.michael

Cardinals5 said:


> Allllll Aboard, next stop Shellville. I'd conservatively say those have a 95% chance of being shell - it's the texture on the vamp and the small mark on the vamp in this picture on the left that looks like a dent in shell.


Awesome shoes but I'll say calf--the laceholes and sheen of the leather by the lace holes seems to say "calf". Beautiful shoes either way and a great price.


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## frosejr

fiddler said:


> I'm pretty sure these are shell. Interesting patina.


Those are great shoes. I'm wearing a pair in 12C right now, in fact. Best pair of shoes in my closet, including my Florsheim vintage and AE both vintage and modern.

I am leery, though, of this seller. He makes a big deal out of how he cleans and polishes each pair of shoes that he sells. Scroll down, and you'll see someone scrubbing a pair with what looks like soap and a regular brush. I imagine the plastic-looking bristles remove a lot of the old patina on good shoes before he puts polish on; and if he polishes the way he applies edge dressing, I'll pass.


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## ArtVandalay

shell for the small footed man?


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## Clay J

I have 1, no longer a pair, of florsheim royal imperials with the number 97626, are these shell? of course one had to be in horrendous condition and fall apart completely


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## Clay J

Just found some interesting shells. the brand is "scott's"(?) then underneath that says tradition of quality. I'll try to upload some pictures, they are in almost new condition for 12 bucks at the local goodwill.


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## greekgeek

g.michael said:


> Awesome shoes but I'll say calf--the laceholes and sheen of the leather by the lace holes seems to say "calf". Beautiful shoes either way and a great price.


The depressed area that traces along the stitching parallel to the eyelets is another sign of teh Shell. I vote shell.


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## Orgetorix

Shell or not shell?


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## Cardinals5

I love this game....this one's a tough call, but my gut says not shell. Those undulations look too deep, the color of the entire shoe strikes me as too consistent, and (not always reliable) there doesn't appear to be any of the dried white stuff (spew) at the base of the tassels.


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## dport86

frosejr said:


> Those are great shoes. I'm wearing a pair in 12C right now, in fact. Best pair of shoes in my closet, including my Florsheim vintage and AE both vintage and modern.
> 
> I am leery, though, of this seller. He makes a big deal out of how he cleans and polishes each pair of shoes that he sells. Scroll down, and you'll see someone scrubbing a pair with what looks like soap and a regular brush. I imagine the plastic-looking bristles remove a lot of the old patina on good shoes before he puts polish on; and if he polishes the way he applies edge dressing, I'll pass.


I've also had a problem with him not taking back a pair of shoes that were the wrong size (misdescribed). OTOH, he does get some great vintage shoes from time to time.


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## phyrpowr

Orgetorix said:


> Shell or not shell?


I'm going with "Shell" on these. My AE Randolphs are very evenly colored, and the toe of one has a shell-type "dent". The glare makes it hard to tell if there are microcreases though.


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## but_ch

Well, here goes. Fresh from the thrift store.


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## chacend

Looks like shell to me but more info/pics would help. Who makes them? Do you have a pic of the whole shoe? Specifically the lace eyelets?


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## but_ch

I picked them up on my lunch hour and snapped a quick pic with the phone. I'll try for more later. Oh, they are Bootmaker Guild by Freeman.


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## well-kept

^ Unquestionably shell to my eye. Look great, very well worn.


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## chacend

Agree, the more I look at them the more strongly I feel.


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## Cardinals5

Yep, well-kept and chacend are correct, those are shells.


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## but_ch

I just took another look at them. I think they were brown, polished to black. Look at the top of the pic, you can see the brown. And right under the heel, almost unreadable due to wear and dirt, is "genuine shell cordovan." Double soled, too. Pretty good for $4.99! 

I'll start with the Mac method tonight, after I figure out what color they are. That might take some work. Then I'll take more pics. They definitely need some shoe tree time as well! 

I really shouldn't be looking forward to polishing shoes. What the hell happened to me?


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## Orgetorix

Shell or not shell?

I've seen burgundy shell age to that color.


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## srivats

^ Shell. But those shoes have never seen a shoe tree.


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## The Deacon

I don't see the tell-tale puckering around the lace holes so I'm inclined to say no but some thinner shell (japanese as compared to Horween) doesn't pucker as obviously around the lace holes and punch holes. I'd like to see a closer pic please


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## The Deacon

The Deacon said:


> I don't see the tell-tale puckering around the lace holes so I'm inclined to say no but some thinner shell (japanese as compared to Horween) doesn't pucker as obviously around the lace holes and punch holes. I'd like to see a closer pic please


I just saw a larger pic and I think that they are calf. I hope I'm wrong:thumbs-up:


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## Orgetorix

srivats said:


> ^ Shell. But those shoes have never seen a shoe tree.


Tight-fitted adjustable trees, maybe some stretching fluid, and a hot spoon or bone will mitigate that pretty well.


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## bandofoutsiders

I picked these up on ebay. Listed as shell cordovan and the seller offers returns, so I figured the risk was diminished:



Shell? I find it hard to recognize in black.

Sorry to link the auction, I couldn't find a way to get the image url.


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## Cardinals5

^^ Looks like shell to me.


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## The Deacon

Definitely shell. I wore my identical vintage black shell florsheims to work today:icon_smile_wink:


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## AlanC

The guy needs a bigger light box.


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## hmmurdock

Any thoughts on these?


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## Cardinals5

Definitely not shell


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## rabidawg

Agree. Similarly, are not shell.


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## Luftvier

Shell, or Not Shell?


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## Hoof

^ S to the HELL I say shell


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## frosejr

Luftvier said:


> Shell, or Not Shell?


Def shell


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## Luftvier

Thank you for confirming. 

I was 99% sure, but the price made me question my eyesight.


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## Cardinals5

Yep, no doubters.


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## Cardinals5

Here's another pair of unmarked shells

Florsheim Imperials, 7D, BIN$30 + shipping


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## Cardinals5

Luftvier said:


> Thank you for confirming.
> 
> I was 99% sure, but the price made me question my eyesight.


I hope you're going to buy those - the soles look NOS except for that discoloration.


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## frosejr

Luftvier said:


> the price made me question my eyesight.


How much were they?


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## Luftvier

^$15.00


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## frosejr

Luftvier said:


> ^$15.00


AGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! If they were 12s I'll sob myself to sleep tonight.


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## Pentheos

Try again.


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## frosejr

Not shell


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## catside

Shell or not?


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## Cardinals5

^^ Definitely not


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## catside

Cardinals5 said:


> ^^ Definitely not


Thanks. I agree. I would not post the link otherwise!!


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## Pentheos

catside said:


> Shell or not?


So far from shell, why even bother posting?


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## catside

Pentheos said:


> So far from shell, why even bother posting?


Because it is sold as one, and in the Q and A section at the bottom the seller refers to a SF thread answering a question. I would have bought it if I was not following this section and other threads like it. Thx anyway.


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## rabidawg

I could be mistaken, but these shoes from the same seller appear to be unmarked shell.


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## palmettoking

They look like it at first, but the creases make me wonder?


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## AlanC

^Not shell, corrected grain.


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## rabidawg

palmettoking said:


> They look like it at first, but the creases make me wonder?


Not shell.


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## palmettoking

Thanks!


----------



## ArtVandalay

That guy has been trying to sell those wingtips for months. Looks like he finally got some bids.


----------



## Pentheos

catside said:


> Because it is sold as one, and in the Q and A section at the bottom the seller refers to a SF thread answering a question. I would have bought it if I was not following this section and other threads like it. Thx anyway.


I wrote to the seller to set him straight, but he insists they are shell cordovan. Oh well. Caveat emptor and all that...


----------



## Pentheos

rabidawg said:


> Not shell.


Not even close.


----------



## The Deacon

rabidawg said:


> I could be mistaken, but these shoes from the same seller appear to be unmarked shell.


They R


----------



## Orgetorix

?


----------



## maximar

Ouch!!! That's a lot of stretching for a shoe. 

I say not shell.


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

rabidawg said:


> I could be mistaken, but these shoes from the same seller appear to be unmarked shell.


Did you get them? I was watching all week and then waited until the last minute to bid. Of course, somebody had an autobidder that nabbed them from me in the last 5 seconds. Guess I'll have to wait some more for shell.


----------



## dionattilio

I'm no expert, but those look like Allen Edmonds, and that type of heel usually indicates shell (I thought).



Orgetorix said:


> ?


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Those are definitely Aldens and it's impossible to tell if those are shell - gut says no because there's no evidence of residual creasing on the vamp and shell rarely smooths out that evenly even with such tight shoe trees. The color is awfully light for Alden #8 shell and if they were exposed to light then they've lightened too evenly for shell.


----------



## rabidawg

GentlemanGeorge said:


> Did you get them? I was watching all week and then waited until the last minute to bid. Of course, somebody had an autobidder that nabbed them from me in the last 5 seconds. Guess I'll have to wait some more for shell.


No, 8D is too small for me. Sorry you got sniped!


----------



## AlanC

I think the super stretch is what is giving it that Allen Edmonds look. I vote not shell on those.


----------



## Orgetorix

^ The not-shell votes win. I asked the seller and confirmed they're model 663, burgundy calf.


----------



## catside

GentlemanGeorge said:


> Did you get them? I was watching all week and then waited until the last minute to bid. Of course, somebody had an autobidder that nabbed them from me in the last 5 seconds. Guess I'll have to wait some more for shell.


What is an autobidder? and is it free?


----------



## catside

No microcreases! Be nice, I am new in this game. 

Also does shell come pebbled? How do you know if it is shell then?


----------



## rabidawg

catside said:


> No microcreases! Be nice, I am new in this game.
> 
> Also does shell come pebbled? How do you know if it is shell then?


This one's tough, because the picture doesn't match the description. The picture is of J&M Optimas, and they are definitely not shell. The description is of black Nettletons, which may or may not be shell. Ask the seller for pictures of the actual item, and report back to us.

Shell can be pebbled/alpine grain, but that treatment of shell is very, very, very rare. So rare that it's not worth worrying about or looking for, I'd say.


----------



## catside

rabidawg said:


> This one's tough, because the picture doesn't match the description. The picture is of J&M Optimas, and they are definitely not shell. The description is of black Nettletons, which may or may not be shell. Ask the seller for pictures of the actual item, and report back to us.
> 
> Shell can be pebbled/alpine grain, but that treatment of shell is very, very, very rare. So rare that it's not worth worrying about or looking for, I'd say.


Thank you kindly. I am just trying to educate myself. I still could not find what kind of excuse I will use to explain to my lovely spouse why I bought a pair of used shoes, so I guess I am not ready to buy yet.


----------



## rabidawg

catside said:


> Thank you kindly. I am just trying to educate myself. I still could not find what kind of excuse I will use to explain to my lovely spouse why I bought a pair of used shoes, so I guess I am not ready to buy yet.


What size are you? I'm sure that I, and some others on the board, would be more than willing to point you in the direction of some unmarked shells . . . incognito, so to speak.


----------



## catside

rabidawg said:


> What size are you? I'm sure that I, and some others on the board, would be more than willing to point you in the direction of some unmarked shells . . . incognito, so to speak.


Wow thanks! I am a 9E at AE, I can wear 9.5, and then 10s with insert. I am looking for laceup wingtips. Help with the excuse to use to wife would be appreciated, too I love conspiracy


----------



## rabidawg

I think these are unmarked shell. Not certain, though. (clickable thumbnail)


----------



## AlanC

^ I vote shell.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

+1 for shell


----------



## Cardinals5

+1 Definitely shell - good, sturdy Hanovers. Looks like they've brightened into an unusual reddish color as well (unless that's just an effect of the flash).


----------



## rabidawg

Thanks for the confirmation. They're size 10D (so not my size), end tomorrow, and have no bids. If anyone's interested, PM me and I'll send a link to the listing. I don't want to post it broadly in case someone's watching these already.


----------



## catside

Not wingtips but I'm on it, will see how it folds. Thanks!


----------



## fiddler

Brogueing and eyelets says shell, but the deep crease on the right shoe worries me. 









My conclusion is unmarked shell,


----------



## rabidawg

Those are shell.


----------



## The Deacon

I second that. I've had three pairs of shell with sharp creases like that including a pair of cigar shell LHS


----------



## catside

That's what i am looking for, pity not my size. Thanks for posting


----------



## catside

Shell or not ? Thumbnail, click on it.

https://img522.imageshack.us/i/b6onsqbgkkgrhqeokm4eyyf.jpg/


----------



## frosejr

catside said:


> Shell or not ? Thumbnail, click on it.
> 
> https://img522.imageshack.us/i/b6onsqbgkkgrhqeokm4eyyf.jpg/


I don't believe they are shell.


----------



## MidWestTrad

Thoughts?



Larger pic.


----------



## rabidawg

Absolutely.


----------



## mcarthur

^^
looks like shell


----------



## mikejw

This auction is over, but these were shell, right?


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Yep, no doubt.


----------



## Orgetorix

Indubitably.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I was actually watching that auction. I didn't bid, as the shoes seemed to be in such condition as to need a recraft by Alden the moment they'd show up in the mailbox. Obviously, 7 other bidders realized they were shell and disagreed with me.


----------



## Orgetorix

Shell or not?


----------



## brantley11

^ I vote shell because you can see that color variation in the lacing collar.


----------



## rabidawg

Too close to call for me. I'd lean toward yes.

Thoughts on this pair?

https://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.175251979.jpg

https://ny-image1.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.175251909.jpg

https://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.175252195.jpg


----------



## AlanC

^I lean toward yes on both.


----------



## catside

^Vote shell on the cordovan, but I am still in training) Can't tell the black.


----------



## brantley11

A rule that I use in addition to the rolls, and puffiness is the back of the tongue. I find that the back of the tongue is smooth and more shinny than calf.


----------



## TheWGP

I think the black ones are shell based on the eyelets. The ebay burgundy ones, I THINK there's some eyelet puffiness visible in one photo - but honestly, I don't think you can tell definitively one way or another, since they're brand new and there photos are too fuzzy even when blown up.


----------



## mcarthur

my feeling that both pairs of shoes are calf


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Uncle Mac is right on both counts, IMHO. Based on the scuffing/scratch evidence, I'm certain both pair of shoes are calfskin!


----------



## catside

Let's see if I am still off the mark, not my size of course but are they shell?


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Not shell - corrected grain


----------



## Pentheos

catside said:


> Let's see if I am still off the mark, not my size of course but are they shell?


In my opinion, these are a tough call. I lean toward not shell...but I'm like 40/60 on these. Might be worth a gamble.


----------



## maximar

Even if they are shell, their kinda beat-up.


----------



## Cardinals5

Here's a fun one to speculate about - Vintage Florsheim captoes with spade soles. I'm about 95% sure these are unmarked shell, but haven't seen shells this old for quite some time. What says the forum?


For anyone interested, they're 9.5W and currently no bids ()


----------



## Orgetorix

Gorgeous shoes, and I agree--almost certainly shell.


----------



## enginerd917

I like this game, been spending a ton of time on ebay playing. 

Hanover



Hanover 2


----------



## frosejr

enginerd917 said:


> I like this game, been spending a ton of time on ebay playing.
> 
> Hanover
> 
> Hanover 2


1 - maybe, but the microcreases in the toe are a little shaky
2 - definitely not shell


----------



## The Deacon

1. is definitely shell, I have owned, worn and sold this same model of black hanover shell.
2. I wore mine yesterday, pebble grain, not "shell cordovan pebble grain"


----------



## The Deacon

I saw a pair of spade sole in shell like this but black from the early 1900's (or so I was told). Seller wanted $125.00, they were approx. size 9E. These shells will shine up nice!


----------



## enginerd917

The Deacon said:


> 1. is definitely shell, I have owned, worn and sold this same model of black hanover shell.
> 2. I wore mine yesterday, pebble grain, not "shell cordovan pebble grain"


These hanover shoes look great, too bad the seller marked them as shell , thanks for the input!

These forsheim MIGHT be shell, to my learning eyes,

Ending very soon, and will probably go very cheap.


----------



## frosejr

enginerd917 said:


> These forsheim MIGHT be shell, to my learning eyes,
> 
> Ending very soon, and will probably go very cheap.


Those look like corrected-grain calf to me, mainly because of the insoles. Those are the comfort/support type insoles that are typically in shoes that sell for far less than shell shoes would.


----------



## rabidawg

enginerd917 said:


> These forsheim MIGHT be shell, to my learning eyes,
> 
> Ending very soon, and will probably go very cheap.


Not shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

Cardinals5 said:


> Here's a fun one to speculate about - Vintage Florsheim captoes with spade soles. I'm about 95% sure these are unmarked shell, but haven't seen shells this old for quite some time. What says the forum?
> 
> For anyone interested, they're 9.5W and currently no bids ()


Wow! Those went for two bills. Hopefully, they won't fall apart on the buyer because of dry rot.


----------



## Cardinals5

Pretty sure these are unmarked shell - looks like just polish build up on the vamp. The picture I'm posting is not the best one. Just follow the link to the auction for better pics. Florsheim Imperial black longwings, 10E, BIN$59.99


----------



## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> Pretty sure these are unmarked shell - looks like just polish build up on the vamp. The picture I'm posting is not the best one. Just follow the link to the auction for better pics. Florsheim Imperial black longwings, 10E, BIN$59.99


i agree with your conclusion


----------



## triklops55

catside said:


> Let's see if I am still off the mark, not my size of course but are they shell?


I bought these. I paid about $140 with tax and shipping. I made sure they were shell first by contacting Florsheim. Here's what Florsheim had to say about them:

The 97626 was last manufactured and sold in 1989.
Here is the information from the catalog.

The Kenmoor Royal Imperial, long wing tip, 5-eyelet blucher, welt construction, full leather lining, cushioned sock lining, double leather sole with leather storm welt and heel with metal v plate.

The 97626 was brown genuine cordovan

I sure hope they fit well!


----------



## catside

^ Ha! I am getting better!!! Happy as a clam. Rabidawg will be proud.


----------



## rabidawg

catside said:


> ^ Ha! I am getting better!!! Happy as a clam. Rabidawg will be proud.


Now you just need to find some in your own size.... :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## Damienos

Hello Gents! Shell Horsehide. Is this Shell Cordovan we all love and 'know'? 

Vintage Wolverine Boots


----------



## Pentheos

Damienos said:


> Hello Gents! Shell Horsehide. Is this Shell Cordovan we all love and 'know'?
> 
> Vintage Wolverine Boots


Don't look it, but it's hard to argue with the tag (and the ad). I've never seen 60 year old shell before, so maybe this is what it looks like when it is that old.


----------



## Cardinals5

Pentheos said:


> Don't look it, but it's hard to argue with the tag (and the ad). I've never seen 60 year old shell before, so maybe this is what it looks like when it is that old.


Unfortunately, I think the future buyer is going to get burned in this case. In most of the vintage advertising I've seen, it's the Wolverine *soles* that are made of shell cordovan and NOT the uppers. The soles have already been replaced on that eBay pair and the uppers look like standard calfskin leather. I've been in search of actual pictures of the shell soles, but am disappointed once again.

Here's a couple of advertisements for the Wolverine shell soles.
https://books.google.com/books?id=_lMEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA102&dq=shell%20cordovan&as_brr=1&pg=PA102#v=onepage&q=shell%20cordovan&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=s...dovan&cd=2#v=onepage&q=shell cordovan&f=false

The other possibility is that these are the "inner-shell horsehide" (whatever that is) advertised by Wolverine here. A quick bit of research shows that Wolverine shifted its own tannery operations entirely to the production of "shell horsehide" in 1914, but it looks like they had their own "recipe", which might have resulted in their shells not having the typical Horween smoothness and shine: https://books.google.com/books?id=i...v=onepage&q=Wolverine shell horsehide&f=false


----------



## Pentheos

I think Cardinal must be correct here. If you look closely at the old ads, they clearly show a hand bending what is a sole of a shoe, indicating, I suppose, that the sole is made from shell. The uppers just don't look it. At any rate, it's insane that these boots are at $127 after only two bids.


----------



## jimmyfingers

Need opinions on these


----------



## AlanC

I suspect "inner-shell horsehide" is simply shell cordovan as we regularly understand it. It is the "inner-shell" (subcutaneous layer) of the horsehide, rather than the "outer-shell" or regular horsehide.



Cardinals5 said:


> The other possibility is that these are the "inner-shell horsehide" (whatever that is) advertised by Wolverine here. A quick bit of research shows that Wolverine shifted its own tannery operations entirely to the production of "shell horsehide" in 1914, but it looks like they had their own "recipe", which might have resulted in their shells not having the typical Horween smoothness and shine: https://books.google.com/books?id=i...v=onepage&q=Wolverine shell horsehide&f=false


----------



## Cardinals5

jimmyfingers said:


> Need opinions on these


not shell - corrected grain


----------



## ArtVandalay

This pair of MacNeils I picked up yesterday are befuddling me. Any opinions?

https://img547.imageshack.us/my.php?image=novblackfri002.jpg
https://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=novblackfri003.jpg
https://img835.imageshack.us/my.php?image=novblackfri009.jpg

I may need to take some close-ups.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ I say shell - nice puffiness around the eyelets and the rounded edges on the brouging. Are they already in your possession? If so, just check the model number (burgundy shell is: 9097) or look for the dovetailed heel (indicates shell on older models)


----------



## ArtVandalay

9097...Shell it is. Thanks Cards.

And yes, they're in my possession.


----------



## Dragoon

AlanC said:


> I suspect "inner-shell horsehide" is simply shell cordovan as we regularly understand it. It is the "inner-shell" (subcutaneous layer) of the horsehide, rather than the "outer-shell" or regular horsehide.


I've been wrong before and am willing to be proven wrong now. However; I don't believe some of what I have read that claims shell cordovan is some "other" layer besides the horses hide.

From wikipedia:
_ leather made from the fibrous flat muscle (or shell) beneath the __hide__ on the rump of the horse.
_
_ 
_Here is a video about the making of shell cordovan that I'm sure many here have seen. Seems to me like it is full grain leather made out of a horses butt hide.


----------



## Cardinals5

ArtVandalay said:


> 9097...Shell it is. Thanks Cards.
> 
> And yes, they're in my possession.


My pleasure and congrats on the nice acquisition.


----------



## MrZipper

Shell? Seller says they cost $525 retail (the shell price), but the model number he lists corresponds with the AE Ashton in Chili Burnished Calf.


----------



## rabidawg

MrZipper said:


> Shell? Seller says they cost $525 retail (the shell price), but the model number he lists corresponds with the AE Ashton in Chili Burnished Calf.


Not shell. Not even close.


----------



## Orgetorix

^ Agreed. Seller probably looked on AE's site, saw a top retail price of $525, and stuck that in to make the shoes seem more high-end.


----------



## MrZipper

rabidawg said:


> Not shell. Not even close.





Orgetorix said:


> ^ Agreed. Seller probably looked on AE's site, saw a top retail price of $525, and stuck that in to make the shoes seem more high-end.


Easy enough. Thank you both!


----------



## Pentheos

MrZipper said:


> Easy enough. Thank you both!


AE only makes a select few shoes in shell, never, I think, the Ashtons. Also, the shoes you linked to had AE rubber soles. While it is possible to have shell resoled with rubber, I think few people do this, and so it's highly unlikely that a pair will show up on Ebay as unmarked shell with rubber soles. You'll get better the longer you play the game.


----------



## MrZipper

Pentheos said:


> You'll get better the longer you play the game.


I sure hope so! Everything I think is shell isn't, and everything that is shell I don't think is. Would probably help if I had actually ever seen shell IRL, and not just on the interwebs.


----------



## fiddler

The brogueing looks shell(ish), but I've never seen Shell Trickers. 


I also wish more makers could use that red Vibram sole.


----------



## maximar

Those Trickers are pretty cool. I wish they were available in longwings.


----------



## well-kept

Trickers uses cordovan, but it is reported to be from a tannery other than Horween. I don't own any so can't comment on its quality. I think those blue brogues look like shell, however.


----------



## Orgetorix

It's so hard to tell, without creases.


----------



## The Rambler

my blink on those ^ is shell.


----------



## Pentheos

The Rambler said:


> my blink on those ^ is shell.


What he said.


----------



## phyrpowr

The Rambler said:


> my blink on those ^ is shell.


Ditto, it just has that more substantial "look", as opposed to corrected grain, "cobbler polished" or whatever


----------



## mcarthur

i vote for shell


----------



## catside

Cordovan but not Horween.

:rolleyes2:I just saw the handwritten markings and figured I might try a shot.


----------



## Cardinals5

Can't decide about these - shell or cg? I'm actually leaning towards cg because of that small ripple on the right shoe (right side of the picture)


----------



## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> Can't decide about these - shell or cg? I'm actually leaning towards cg because of that small ripple on the right shoe (right side of the picture)


not shell!


----------



## catside

Alden Wingtips. Shell or not shell?
https://img214.imageshack.us/i/alden001.jpg/
https://img230.imageshack.us/i/alden002.jpg/
https://img375.imageshack.us/i/alden004.jpg/


----------



## rabidawg

Shell. Model 9741 is a black shell wingtip oxford on the Grant last.


----------



## catside

I thought so. Thanks Rabidawg, still waiting for mine to arrive. These are too big for me. Will need a resole job. Anybody want it?


----------



## Pentheos

catside said:


> I thought so. Thanks Rabidawg, still waiting for mine to arrive. These are too big for me. Will need a resole job. Anybody want it?


What size are they?


----------



## rabidawg

Pentheos said:


> What size are they?


11 B/D


----------



## mcarthur

catside said:


> Alden Wingtips. Shell or not shell?
> https://img214.imageshack.us/i/alden001.jpg/
> https://img230.imageshack.us/i/alden002.jpg/
> https://img375.imageshack.us/i/alden004.jpg/


shell


----------



## closerlook

so shell.


----------



## MidWestTrad

Just a shade too big or I would gladly take them off your hands. Very nice shell by the way.


----------



## catside

Any smaller they would fit me, too; and they would be on their way to Alden to get recrafted by now


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

These?


----------



## Orgetorix

Not shell.


----------



## eagle2250

^^
+1. They look a lot like the Govt. issued, black calf oxfords I wore during my early military days. Purchased from our military clothing sales facility, they cost $13 per pair!


----------



## mcarthur

^^
not shell


----------



## maximar

I would guess the brand of those shoes is Wolverine, Made in USA. I had one of those before. Not shell but tough as nails. For the untrained eye, they would pass as shell.


----------



## rabidawg

They are actually Hanovers from 1964. I posted higher resolution shots of them a few pages back.


----------



## palmettoking

I'm leaning towards corrected grain, but I could be wrong..


----------



## Dripp

palmettoking said:


> I'm leaning towards corrected grain, but I could be wrong..


no way, not shell - look at those creases in the third photo...


----------



## palmettoking

That's kind of what I was thinking. Thanks for the confirmation.


----------



## Orgetorix

Were these? Please say no. I forgot to set my sniper and missed the end of the auction.


----------



## Pentheos

^^^^^^^'

No. No. No.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^^

Right. Right. Right.


----------



## catside

Orgetorix said:


> Were these? Please say no. I forgot to set my sniper and missed the end of the auction.


Not shell, but what a value!


----------



## Steve Smith

Shell or not shell?


----------



## palmettoking

Shell


----------



## The Rambler

^ what he said.


----------



## catside

Shell


----------



## frosejr

Shell, and gorgeous to boot


----------



## mcarthur

it looks like shell to me


----------



## Steve Smith

I think you are all correct about the Florsheims. The look is pretty obvious and the 93605 confirms it according to my research.

The funny thing is that I had them for a month, just not getting around to posting them for sale, thinking they were calf. I was polishing several pairs of shoes this weekend, including 3 other pairs of shells. I came to these and, hey, wait a minute.....

Man, I wish these were 12D's. This is one of two grail shoes for me.


----------



## palmettoking

Steve Smith said:


> Man, I wish these were 12D's. This is one of two grail shoes for me.


Me too Steve, me too. There has to be a pair languishing in a thrift somewhere in the Carolinas...


----------



## anteck7

Shell or not?


----------



## phyrpowr

anteck7 said:


> Shell or not?


anteck7

I'm 99% sure not shell, as I'm looking at my "just like" pair now: corrected grain, but a good comfortable shoe, and should be ideal for an all weather shoe.


----------



## Orgetorix

Nope, not shell.


----------



## The Rambler

no way


----------



## palmettoking

Somebody thought they were though...


----------



## phyrpowr

palmettoking said:


> Somebody thought they were though...


Didn't notice the sell price at first, got mine for about $40, wouldn't have gone $110 on those.


----------



## catside

^That price is shell territory. Shoes obviously are not.


----------



## Steve Smith

I looked them over before reading all the comments and came to the conclusion "Not shell".


----------



## anteck7

I was the buyer, however I'm contacting them as they listed them as


> The shoe are the classic Florsheim Imperial cordovan shell wingtip oxfords. They are in great shape hardly even worn. They are size 13 D. Great pair of vintage Florsheim's.


Can I ask what tipped you guys off?


----------



## Steve Smith

It is harder to tell with newer shoes, and those have not been worn much. I am not an expert and I can't say that I am 100% sure. My opinion is based upon a combination of things:

1. These are later model Florsheims. In my experience the old suicide heel gunboats are more likely to be shell than the newer models.

2. Looks like microcreasing.

3. The color doesn't have the depth that I associate with Florsheim shell. Look at the gunboats on page 11 to see what I mean. 

4. Shortwings. I don't recall seeing Florsheim shell shortwings. 

5. The lace holes are not particularly convincing.

One of the posters on the previous page mentioned having a pair of identical shoes. Ask the seller for the numbers inside the shoe and research the numbers. See if the model # matches up to a pair of calf shoes.


----------



## cecil47

anteck7 said:


> I was the buyer, however I'm contacting them as they listed them as
> 
> Can I ask what tipped you guys off?


Additionally, 
The little logo on the inside says Florsheim Shoe, not Florsheim Imperial. Not all Imperials are shell, but I don't think any of the "regular" Florsheims are.


----------



## catside

^Get the number, call Florsheim.


----------



## Pugin

?


----------



## Pentheos

anteck7 said:


> I was the buyer, however I'm contacting them as they listed them as
> 
> Can I ask what tipped you guys off?


Definitely, definitely not shell. They're just regular old cordovan-colored Florsheims. You better hope they have a return policy.


----------



## The Deacon

Pugin said:


> View attachment 2010
> 
> 
> ?


Fo' sho! Looks llike a pair of Florsheim Imperials in shell cordovan. It even has the common dimple in the vamp of the left shoe.


----------



## Cardinals5

The Deacon said:


> Fo' sho! Looks llike a pair of Florsheim Imperials in shell cordovan. It even has the common dimple in the vamp of the left shoe.


Agreed


----------



## TheWGP

anteck7:

I would consider that an item not as described - see here if all else fails:

https://pages.ebay.com/coverage/index.html

Remember, if the seller won't refund your original price PLUS your original shipping, just go that route to get your money back. The idea is that it's their mistake for listing them incorrectly. Certainly the sales price was 100% based on the "cordovan shell" description. As a side note - for me to go to $110 high on a pair of old Florsheims, they'd have to be pretty damn close to NOS. I got mine from a bulletproof seller on the other forum for $99 and I considered that highish, even though I was paying for the confidence in the seller.


----------



## anteck7

Evidently, despite the consensus (not shell), I got the serial and contacted florsheim:


> anteck7:
> I was wondering if you could tell me if a shoe I found older, is cordovan
> anteck7:
> the model number is 629060-30353
> Customer Service:
> The code you provided does note cordovan.
> anteck7:
> as a color or a materail
> Customer Service:
> As the shoe is more than seven years old, I am quite certain that the material is cordovan.


----------



## mcarthur

anteck7 said:


> Evidently, despite the consensus (not shell), I got the serial and contacted florsheim:


good research!


----------



## catside

??


----------



## closerlook

nope. sorry.


----------



## palmettoking

Nope, not shell.


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

Look like shell to me. (Edit--view was on the phone. The right shoe had some dubious creasing that the desktop view shows better...looks more like the puckered creasing on some cg hanovers of mine.)



catside said:


> ??


----------



## catside

Just had put in as an exercise. Thx.


----------



## anteck7

*What about these*

Shell or not shell? Hotlink

https://d.imagehost.org/view/0238/shellquestion
https://d.imagehost.org/view/0865/shellquestion3

https://d.imagehost.org/view/0985/shellquestion2


----------



## Pentheos

^^^^ No. You know why? They are "The Florsheim Shoe," Florsheim's regular line, which, to my knowledge, never included shell cordovan. That was reserved for Florsheim Imperials and Royal Imperials.


----------



## mcarthur

^^^
do not see the shell creases; therefore, calf


----------



## anteck7

I guess this is one of those things ill have to learn, what are shell creases?


----------



## triklops55

*who wants these?*

I bought these on eBay: 
Here's the information I received by e-mailing Florsheim:
The 97626 was last manufactured and sold in 1989.
Here is the information from the catalog.

The Kenmoor Royal Imperial, long wing tip, 5-eyelet blucher, welt construction, full leather lining, cushioned sock lining, double leather sole with leather storm welt and heel with metal v plate.

The 97626 was genuine cordovan

I paid about $150 with taxes and shipping but they're a tad too big. Does anyone want them? PM me with an offer I can't refuse, before I put them back on eBay.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

anteck7,

I took a chance on an identical pair of florsheims.
They're almost certainly corrected grain, though _very_ deceptive looking.

I'd actually disagree with the Florsheim customer service person about the other pair you posted as well.


----------



## anteck7

I have a feeling the picture of the other pair is inaccurate, and was posted because it looked similar (as it is marked with a different sellers ID).

Ill post pictures when I get them with additional detail


----------



## KenR

Shell or not shell:


----------



## maximar

anteck7 said:


> Shell or not shell? Hotlink
> 
> https://d.imagehost.org/view/0238/shellquestion
> https://d.imagehost.org/view/0865/shellquestion3
> 
> https://d.imagehost.org/view/0985/shellquestion2


Not shell.


----------



## maximar

KenR said:


> Shell or not shell:


NOT completely shell. Beware. The knots are deceiving!


----------



## Orgetorix

What do you think? I know the Sanford was made in burgundy shell at one time, but I can't see the model number clearly enough to tell if these are.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

pic #2 makes me think calf.


----------



## Cardinals5

Nope, you can see the creases in this side shot


----------



## gman-17

Cardinals5 said:


> Nope, you can see the creases in this side shot


Agree with the above def not shell.


----------



## Pentheos

Shell no!


----------



## tradfan207

Shell by Stafford? Got these off the bay.
*







*


----------



## Steve Smith

tradfan207 said:


> Shell by Stafford? Got these off the bay.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


I don't think so. Seller didn't represent them as shell and they don't look like it.


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

^^Intriguing thought, but, no, those are corrected grain.


----------



## maximar

Not shell. Corrected grain they are.


----------



## closerlook

i am usually really good at this. but on this one i really took a chance, so i am seeking opinions. 
i just won them on ebay:


----------



## dorji

Tough call. Maybe..... Bet that doesn't help...leanin towards no.


----------



## closerlook

dorji said:


> Tough call. Maybe..... Bet that doesn't help...leanin towards no.


One thing I do know is that the style number "789" inside the shoes does not match the calf version of this model which is 5__ something. ALso strange is that this shoe is branded for Brooks Brothers, and I was unaware that Brooks had ever carried the longwing tassel.


----------



## Cardinals5

Yeah, impossible to tell, but I'm leaning towards calf - we can still hope for shell!


----------



## The Rambler

calf, but I've been wrong before.


----------



## Orgetorix

If it is shell, it'd be the first longwing tassel I've _ever_ seen in shell. But I also lean toward calf.


----------



## closerlook

I am pretty sure the nyc store has a shell make up in this style.
I have never seen this model sold at bb either though.


----------



## closerlook

here is another picture. 
if these are shell I got a great deal. if they are calf, i paid a little too much : (
the style number 789


----------



## maximar

I'm going for calf. If they are indeed calf, it's top notch calf or maybe the result of a cow and horse love affair sometime ago. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## catside

It's not my style. But I think they are shell.


----------



## srivats

Those tassles are shell.


----------



## closerlook

Orgetorix said:


> If it is shell, it'd be the first longwing tassel I've _ever_ seen in shell. But I also lean toward calf.


I am curious as to what it is, other than the style of the shoe, that makes most say this is calf.


----------



## KenR

The wings have that "shell" look to me.


----------



## The Rambler

closer - let us know when you get them.


----------



## mcarthur

closerlook said:


> here is another picture.
> if these are shell I got a great deal. if they are calf, i paid a little too much : (
> the style number 789


i am not recognize the style # and i believe it is not shell


----------



## closerlook

mcarthur said:


> i am not recognize the style # and i believe it is not shell


I just realized that bb has different style numbers for their versions of alden shoes.

uncle, is it the creases that don't look like shell?

Rambler, will do.


----------



## mcarthur

closerlook said:


> I just realized that bb has different style numbers for their versions of alden shoes.
> 
> uncle, is it the creases that don't look like shell?
> 
> Rambler, will do.


the creases do not look like shell


----------



## closerlook

thanks. 
I'll be sure to report back when they get here.


----------



## Cardinals5

I'm pretty sure these can't be shell (the design is all wrong), but sure does look like it.


----------



## frosejr

Cardinals5 said:


> I'm pretty sure these can't be shell (the design is all wrong), but sure does look like it.


I think those are shell.


----------



## Orgetorix

^ Not shell, IMO. The design, and also there's none of the typical shell puffiness around the edge of the tongue (or any of the other seams).


----------



## Cardinals5

Yeah, what got me was what appears to be the slightly mottled toe on the left shoe in the picture, which is what shell sometimes looks like after being exposed to light for some time.


----------



## srivats

Cardinals5 said:


> I'm pretty sure these can't be shell (the design is all wrong), but sure does look like it.


Looks more like CG, Cards.


----------



## straw sandals

Thoughts, gents?


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

^Looks like microcreasing, but I agree it's hard to tell from the pictures.


----------



## srivats

straw sandals said:


> Thoughts, gents?


Absolutely not shell.


----------



## Orgetorix




----------



## straw sandals

Haha, fair enough. They're a pair of Wrights that are up for $25 on etsy, which would have made 'em the deal of the month!


----------



## Steve Smith

Please let me know whether these are shell, and give me your degree of certainty. Thanks.


----------



## rabidawg

Look like CG to me. Probably 85% certain.


----------



## closerlook

Cardinals5 said:


> Yeah, what got me was what appears to be the slightly mottled toe on the left shoe in the picture, which is what shell sometimes looks like after being exposed to light for some time.


the tassels tell all. not shell I'm afraid.


----------



## Orgetorix

Worth taking a $30 chance?


----------



## rabidawg

The Graysons do not look like shell.


----------



## rebel222

Although I'm the one that alerted you to the fact that they aren't shell, I'm posting my 100% certain opinion that the Hanover PTBs are not shell.

If you use the larger pictures that you had posted on photobucket, they are even more telling.


----------



## Pentheos

Steve Smith said:


> Please let me know whether these are shell, and give me your degree of certainty. Thanks.
> ]


Not shell, 100%.


----------



## Cardinals5

closerlook said:


> the tassels tell all. not shell I'm afraid.


No worries - I wouldn't wear that style anyway. I usually check Stuart McGuire shoes since they did a fair number of shell models, but they also went downhill fast and produced a huge number of corrected grain shoes.


----------



## Cardinals5

Orgetorix said:


> Worth taking a $30 chance?


Not worth the risk since shell Graysons are easy to find. Did you take those Nettleton shell tassels?


----------



## Orgetorix

Cardinals5 said:


> Not worth the risk since shell Graysons are easy to find. Did you take those Nettleton shell tassels?


Sure did!


----------



## closerlook

closerlook said:


> here is another picture.


These are indeed shell friends. however, among some other need repairs, they have been stretched what I would estimate is a halfsize, which means I can't really wear them.


----------



## The Rambler

SS: I'll go not, despite the shellish big wrinkles on the vamp, because the lace-holes don't look right, plus general impression. Degree of certainty: 0%


----------



## Cardinals5

Now that the auction's over and I won them, I thought I'd see what others think about these - they're Florsheim Royal Imperial Yumas. The soles look like they're from the 1998 run of Yumas, which did include shell as an option. I only paid $24 shipped so if they aren't shell I'm not out that much.


----------



## well-kept

I have an earlier pair in shell. I think yours are as well. You're going to love them. Great shoes.


----------



## closerlook

shell.


----------



## Orgetorix

As I said via PM, something about the gleam where the light hits them says not shell to me. But I hope I'm wrong!


----------



## brantley11

What about these?

I think they are shell, but thoughts are welcome.

https://img638.imageshack.us/i/etsyflorsheims2.jpg/
https://img38.imageshack.us/i/etsyflorshiems1.jpg/


----------



## well-kept

Yes. Florsheim 93605 = burgundy shell


----------



## brantley11

^ did you see 93605 in one of my pictures?


----------



## Steve Smith

Brantley, I am leaning toward shell on those but I would feel better if the color were a little darker. Vintage Florsheims can be tricky because even after a great deal of wear the uppers can look relatively new, and not give us much of the "shell waves" that we look for. 

Another thing that has me leaning toward shell is that these shoes are vintage, based upon the color (tan) of the inside of the shoe. I don't recall ever seeing a calf vintage Florsheim in that color. That doesn't mean the calf version doesn't exist, but OTOH I have seen a lot of vintage Florsheims. The only two pairs I have handled in that color were both 93605 shell.

If the footbed is also tan, with the gold script Florsheim, and the soles show nails and the suicide heel then I would also go further toward shell certainty.


----------



## Cardinals5

Brantley - those were already posted in the eBay thread and they are indeed shell.


----------



## closerlook

closerlook said:


> 789


Would anyone be interested in these? 
Just looking for what they ran me.
They are shell.
At first I thought they were a little big for an 8 D, but now I think they are actually around 8 after all.
Nice shoes but not really my style now that I've had them on. 
They will need a reheeling in the not so distant future I think. Soles are fine.


----------



## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> Now that the auction's over and I won them, I thought I'd see what others think about these - they're Florsheim Royal Imperial Yumas. The soles look like they're from the 1998 run of Yumas, which did include shell as an option. I only paid $24 shipped so if they aren't shell I'm not out that much.


nephew,
sell asap


----------



## Cardinals5

mcarthur said:


> nephew,
> sell asap


Not your style, Uncle, or you think they're not shell?


----------



## Orgetorix

Pretty sure these are...right? For some reason my shell-o-meter is not yielding as much certainty as usual.


----------



## Pentheos

^^^

Tough call. I'm gonna say "no" because I think I see micro-creasing.


----------



## Orgetorix

What do you think when they're compared side-by-side with these vintage Leeds (recently listed on the Bay) that are undoubtedly shell? Looks like the same material to me.


----------



## Pentheos

I'll grant that they look similar. Still, I think I see micro-creasing in the vertical crease on the outside of the right shoe. Also, some of the tassels are very splayed; I haven't noticed this on my own pair of shell graysons. There's only one way to find out, I guess.


----------



## Steve Smith

Orgetorix said:


> Pretty sure these are...right? For some reason my shell-o-meter is not yielding as much certainty as usual.


I am really on the edge about those. Ask the seller to describe the heels.


----------



## srivats

Orgetorix said:


> Pretty sure these are...right? For some reason my shell-o-meter is not yielding as much certainty as usual.


Orgetorix, those are shell.


----------



## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> Not your style, Uncle, or you think they're not shell?


not my style


----------



## mcarthur

Orgetorix said:


> Pretty sure these are...right? For some reason my shell-o-meter is not yielding as much certainty as usual.


look like shell


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Steve Smith said:


> I am really on the edge about those. Ask the seller to describe the heels.


Or even better, ask the seller for a picture of the heels (or soles altoghether). That will be your best evidence, beyond the shadow of a doubt.

I vote shell.


----------



## Tom Buchanan

Orgetorix said:


> Pretty sure these are...right? For some reason my shell-o-meter is not yielding as much certainty as usual.


I would be very careful with these. I have guessed wrong with Graysons before. The calf Grayson has a bit of an unatural finish that can look like shell in pictures. Looking at the side crease and the tassel strap, I would err on the side of calf.

I second the recommendations to ask about the heal or the model numbers.


----------



## marshallogren

How about these? I am thinking not shell...but thought I'd throw it out there. Thanks!

=


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Welcome to AAAC, Marshallogren!

These are nice shoes, but I don't believe they're shell: although the pictures are not very clear, I think I see micro-creasing in the second picture, top of left shoe. Also, they're more recent than my shell Florsheim Imperials. It also doesn't help that we can't see inside the shoes.


----------



## Cardinals5

Not shell


----------



## LeeBiggerstaff

*Stuart McGuire - Shell or Not?*

Any input on these shoes, its is hard to tell without any creasing.


shellorcg by LeeBiggerstaff, on Flickr


----------



## The Rambler

unworn is challenging, but I'll say shell.


----------



## Pentheos

I say no. I found the auction on Ebay (best to link to them because there are always more pictures), and there is microcreasing here and there.


----------



## ArtVandalay

I say no way.


----------



## mcarthur

LeeBiggerstaff said:


> Any input on these shoes, its is hard to tell without any creasing.
> 
> 
> shellorcg by LeeBiggerstaff, on Flickr


i vote for shell


----------



## joenobody0

LeeBiggerstaff said:


> Any input on these shoes, its is hard to tell without any creasing.
> 
> 
> shellorcg by LeeBiggerstaff, on Flickr


Not shell. There's micro creasing where the upper meets the flap for the lacing on the left side of the left shoe. Also the color is very very consistent. That's not the case with the lighter burgundy shells.


----------



## Cardinals5

LeeBiggerstaff said:


> Any input on these shoes, its is hard to tell without any creasing.
> 
> 
> shellorcg by LeeBiggerstaff, on Flickr


The dead giveaway that these are not shell are the man-made outsoles.


----------



## LeggeJP1

A swift response would be greatly appreciated. Very interested in these at the great price point, but curious if either is shell. I can tell they're not LB Sheppards--the insole is not well shown but clearly enough to tell me that much, but I don't know anything else about 'em.


----------



## palmettoking

At first glance I thought not shell, but the more I look at them the more they look like shell. Still not sure. A good deal either way though.


----------



## Pentheos

LeggeJP1 said:


> A swift response would be greatly appreciated. Very interested in these at the great price point, but curious if either is shell. I can tell they're not LB Sheppards--the insole is not well shown but clearly enough to tell me that much, but I don't know anything else about 'em.


I really don't think so. Ask the seller to post more photos. But, again, I seriously doubt it.


----------



## LeggeJP1

I feel pressured to BIN simply because someone else has an outstanding offer...I have asked for more photos, but I expect I might just see him get it.

Anything visible from the few photos there that would point you in either direction?


----------



## Steve Smith

^If shell, those may have "Genuine Shell Cordovan" on the soles, if the soles are original. Make a conditional offer to pay full asking price, in the text of your question, in case the answer is affirmative.


----------



## LeggeJP1

Great advice, Steve. I was considering it and did so on your advice, with my 'offer' price what I was willing to pay if they're not shell ($55). And I appreciate the caution from Pentheos and palmetto. Here's to hoping they're shell!


----------



## Steve Smith

Auction has ended. Did you get them?


----------



## LeggeJP1

Yes. Not shell. Still great shoes. For $70 shipped I do not feel that I got a bad deal at all.


----------



## Pentheos

LeggeJP1 said:


> Yes. Not shell. Still great shoes. For $70 shipped I do not feel that I got a bad deal at all.


Yes, 2 Hanovers for $70 is a very good deal.


----------



## marshallogren

Hey Barrister & Solicitor and everyone, thanks for the reply on the recent post. How about these?

The photos are not the best, but maybe some more experience would help. The seller states the "#'s read 419167 17 and 3605 10." I'm not sure if that helps or not.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## catside

Steve Smith posted the number as 93605. You got the 3605. Send him a PM and ask.


----------



## The Deacon

Surely shell but possibly dry.


----------



## rabidawg

marshallogren said:


> Hey Barrister & Solicitor and everyone, thanks for the reply on the recent post. How about these?
> 
> The photos are not the best, but maybe some more experience would help. The seller states the "#'s read 419167 17 and 3605 10." I'm not sure if that helps or not.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Definitely shell.


----------



## Steve Smith

I may be beating a dead horse here, but I would be amazed if those Florsheims are not shell just by the color and look. The partial # seems to confirm.


----------



## phyrpowr

Steve Smith said:


> I may be beating a dead horse here, but I would be amazed if those Florsheims are not shell just by the color and look. The partial # seems to confirm.


^^They look just like mine, but a tad newer and nicer


----------



## AlanC

^Certainly shell. Look at the eyelets.


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

I've been looking at those too, but his starting prices are HIGH!


----------



## marshallogren

Thanks everybody, I'm learning all the time...however, I'm a little ashamed I didn't put the 3605 and 93605 together, doh!...must have been a long day  And, yes, his prices are a bit high...something to consider perhaps? We'll see.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I agree with the others: it's shell. But way too pricey in my opinion.


----------



## Steve Smith

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> I agree with the others: it's shell. But way too pricey in my opinion.


Alden shell LHS in equivalent condition often go for more than this starting bid. I would rather have the Florsheims.


----------



## Cardinals5

The Florsheim Yumas finally arrived today and they are indeed shell - the sole even says "Genuine Cordovan Uppers". I'd guess they've only been worn about 10 times from the excellent condition of the soles. I'll post more pics after applying the MacMethod.



Cardinals5 said:


> Now that the auction's over and I won them, I thought I'd see what others think about these - they're Florsheim Royal Imperial Yumas. The soles look like they're from the 1998 run of Yumas, which did include shell as an option. I only paid $24 shipped so if they aren't shell I'm not out that much.


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

Nicely done, Cards! I need to learn what you're doing.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Steve Smith said:


> Alden shell LHS in equivalent condition often go for more than this starting bid. I would rather have the Florsheims.


I paid about a $100 for my shell Florsheims. Hence my comment. Personally, I wouldn't shell out (pun intended) $150 for used shoes, no matter what brand they are.


----------



## catside

^Depends! A Vass would make me think very very hard!


----------



## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> The Florsheim Yumas finally arrived today and they are indeed shell - the sole even says "Genuine Cordovan Uppers". I'd guess they've only been worn about 10 times from the excellent condition of the soles. I'll post more pics after applying the MacMethod.


mac them and then sell them


----------



## catside

Boy! Mac really hated those!!


----------



## Cardinals5

mcarthur said:


> mac them and then sell them


I'm going to Mac'em and keep'em! They're very comfortable - like unlined shell lhs. Good for when I feel Bohemian :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## mcarthur

catside said:


> Boy! Mac really hated those!!


hate is much too strong-just dislike


----------



## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> I'm going to Mac'em and keep'em! They're very comfortable - like unlined shell lhs. Good for when I feel Bohemian :icon_smile_wink:


good shoes to wear for the 4 AM feeding (two winks)


----------



## well-kept

^ "Just dislike"... or possibly just envious. An unfillable hole in the collection?

I believe that one cannot today buy a shell slip-on of this quality. Alden doesn't make a shoe with anything approaching the graceful proportions of old Florsheim Yumas. The color and texture of mine far outshine any of my Aldens. The quality of the sewing, the number of stitches per inch are superior. Then there's the way they feel. The only way to procure a pair is to be lucky enough to find them. 

Cards, you did well. I'm sure you'll get great pleasure from them.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Thanks, well-kept. I wore them out yesterday and they are supremely comfortable with my slightly high instep and the quality of the shell is superb. I'm posting some pics in the January Acquisitions thread.


----------



## well-kept

^ Cards, thanks. I took a look. They're beauties, and comparing them stylistically to the LHS is like putting a Jaguar beside a Ford pickup. I found mine, completely unworn, nos, from a nice woman down south who felt that a four-dollar buy-it-now was about right. And from the differences in marking between yours and mine, I guess mine are from the 70s, marked Imperial, with the model number 93230 - the "93" placing them with the classic Imperial line in terms of date. Again, nice score.


----------



## red sweatpants




----------



## Orgetorix

^ Not shell.


----------



## joenobody0

red sweatpants said:


>


Micro creasing in the toe box on the left shoe. No question at all, they're not shell.

On edit: left as I look at it, but right shoe.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

I've seen shell get creases like that.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ I looked at that pair the first day it was posted an my initial reaction was shell before seeing that crease. I do have a pair of Hanover shell ptbs that have a similar crease where the shell separated from the leather lining. In either case, those are either not shell or shell that has a serious flaw.


----------



## red sweatpants

Thanks for the input. That creasing is what stumped me too, since all evidence I've found so far says 97626 = shell.


----------



## The Deacon

I think shell, the lace holes are preggers and the punchholes blunted which usually connotes shell for me, despite the crease.


----------



## srivats

The Deacon said:


> I think shell, the lace holes are preggers *and the punchholes blunted *which usually connotes shell for me, despite the crease.


+1. those are shell.

I have a pair of vintage nettleton PTBs that creases almost like that on one shoe.


----------



## closerlook

The Deacon said:


> I think shell, the lace holes are preggers and the punchholes blunted which usually connotes shell for me, despite the crease.


soft calf can half puffy punch holes and laces holes

those are not shell. if they are, it would be the first time i am wrong.


----------



## tonylumpkin

closerlook said:


> those are not shell. if they are, it would be the first time i am wrong.


Don't let it get you down...it won't be the last. :icon_smile:


----------



## Steve Smith

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> I've seen shell get creases like that.


Agreed.

I posted some photos a few weeks ago and got a bunch of "not shells". When I took them to my shoe repair guy, who has 30+ years experience, he said "definitely shell" after actually handling the shoes. I didn't tell him my opinion, I just handed him the shoes and asked if they were shell.

The moral to the story is that it is difficult to identify shell sometimes, probably because it came from different animals, different tanners, and has differing ages and levels of care.

As for this term "microcreasing", that is pretty good word to use for the way that shell DOES crease. And it does crease, usually very tiny creases.


----------



## closerlook

tonylumpkin said:


> Don't let it get you down...it won't be the last. :icon_smile:


those are not shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

I'm certain these are shell, but I'm just posting them because they're such unusual Alden shell models (discontinued)




Was also available in black shell


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

^

Can't see on my monitor here, but until you posted those (if they, are as you suspect, shell) and closerlook posted his in the exchange thread the other day I had never seen a wingtip tassel in shell.

Seems like a rare find.



Steve Smith said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I posted some photos a few weeks ago and got a bunch of "not shells". When I took them to my shoe repair guy, who has 30+ years experience, he said "definitely shell" after actually handling the shoes. I didn't tell him my opinion, I just handed him the shoes and asked if they were shell.
> 
> The moral to the story is that it is difficult to identify shell sometimes, probably because it came from different animals, different tanners, and has differing ages and levels of care.
> 
> As for this term "microcreasing", that is pretty good word to use for the way that shell DOES crease. And it does crease, usually very tiny creases.





Cardinals5 said:


> ^^ I looked at that pair the first day it was posted an my initial reaction was shell before seeing that crease. I do have a pair of Hanover shell ptbs that have a similar crease where the shell separated from the leather lining. In either case, those are either not shell or shell that has a serious flaw.


I guess I might be dealing with odd cases, but I've seen small creases on shell before. 
Not tiny micro creases like you'd see on calf, but not giant rollling waves of shell either.

I wonder if the shell thickness has something to do with it, as that also seems to vary widely among various ages and maker sof shell shoes.


----------



## closerlook

S O/ NS?


----------



## Orgetorix

^ NS. CG.


----------



## ArtVandalay

Yep, those are new school Florsheims. Made in India. Definitely not shell.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

I can't really tell based on the pictures, #3 makes me think not shell.

That said, the details (insole label, sole markings, rubber insert, soles) look just like the shell LWBs Florsheim put out right before they moved production overseas.
I have a pair, and have thrifted and sold another and they're very nice shoes. Quality is top notch though the last seems bigger and a bit clunkier than older florsheims.


----------



## Cardinals5

I'd say not shell, but here's a perfect chance to use the "Hunter's Guide" by e-mailing the seller and asking for the numbers inside the shoe. The Hunter's Guide already helped me figure out a pair of shoes that I thought were CG, but turned out to be shell.


----------



## firedancer

Cardinals5 said:


> I'd say not shell, but here's a perfect chance to use the "Hunter's Guide" by e-mailing the seller and asking for the numbers inside the shoe. The Hunter's Guide already helped me figure out a pair of shoes that I thought were CG, but turned out to be shell.


Where can I find this "Hunters Guide"?
Thanks


----------



## Cardinals5

firedancer said:


> Where can I find this "Hunters Guide"?


It's a work-in-progress
https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?110401-A-Hunter-s-Guide-Shell-Model-Numbers


----------



## firedancer

Cardinals5 said:


> It's a work-in-progress
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?110401-A-Hunter-s-Guide-Shell-Model-Numbers


 That's Great. KKudos to whoever started that! How are Aldens so easy to tell? I have a pair of black BB tassels that I'm 90%sure are shell but not sure. The style #s are 9E23-039 3 1301. They were reheeled with a rubber GY heel so no help there.


----------



## Cardinals5

firedancer said:


> That's Great. KKudos to whoever started that! How are Aldens so easy to tell? I have a pair of black BB tassels that I'm 90%sure are shell but not sure. The style #s are 9E23-039 3 1301. They were reheeled with a rubber GY heel so no help there.


Strange - 1301 is usually Alden for BB tassels in burgundy shell. The pair you're selling on eBay are definitely shell, but you're asking price is probably too high for shell tassels, which frequently go for less than $100 on eBay. Yours look black in the pictures, but are you sure they're not just really dark burgundy? I have a pair of burgundy Alden shells that appear almost black in certain kinds of light.

The reason I said Aldens are so simple to identify is that they've used the same model numbers for quite some time and since Alden rarely introduces a new standard model their shell codes are easy to find. If people think Alden shells are NOT easy to identify, it's easy for me to assemble their shell codes.


----------



## firedancer

Cardinals5 said:


> Strange - 1301 is usually Alden for BB tassels in burgundy shell. The pair you're selling on eBay are definitely shell, but you're asking price is probably too high for shell tassels, which frequently go for less than $100 on eBay. Yours look black in the pictures, but are you sure they're not just really dark burgundy? I have a pair of burgundy Alden shells that appear almost black in certain kinds of light.
> 
> The reason I said Aldens are so simple to identify is that they've used the same model numbers for quite some time and since Alden rarely introduces a new standard model their shell codes are easy to find. If people think Alden shells are NOT easy to identify, it's easy for me to assemble their shell codes.


 No, Dark Black for sure. Too big for me:-( Funny, That you knew which ones were mine. You guys really are "shell hunters"! I was going to re-list them with a lower start price. I was just fishing the first go around. I'm also assuming these were made on the aberdeen last which seem to run ~half size big? Thanks. Once I get things figured out I'll start posting finds like this here first, Give you good folks first crack, It just seems right


----------



## fiddler

Maker is Eduard Meier, looks like shell to me! Could probably use a little Mac, though.


----------



## Orgetorix

No doubt about it. Shell.


----------



## mcarthur

fiddler said:


> Maker is Eduard Meier, looks like shell to me! Could probably use a little Mac, though.
> 
> i vote for shell


----------



## srivats

Cardinals5 said:


> I'm certain these are shell, but I'm just posting them because they're such unusual Alden shell models (discontinued)


These loog great, cards!


----------



## Orgetorix

Ah, so that's the model that the AAAC/Leathersoul Alden spectator was based on. I always wondered. Such an odd model with the throat on top of the vamp, instead of underneath it. Kinda ugly, IMO.


----------



## The Rambler

yes, not to surprising they were discontinued, but one for the archives!


----------



## Orgetorix




----------



## Cardinals5

Gut says "no", but the creases on the left shoe (while worn) do look like shell. What's with the color on the vamp of the right shoe?


----------



## mcarthur

i vote no shell


----------



## The Rambler

same here, by gut, or blink, and because calf shoes that are a little long can develop shell-like waves.


----------



## rbstc123

Thoughts on these?

I'm so on the fence. Based on the "straight on" picture (2) I think these are shell. Note the pointed part of the wing (that points back toward the laces) is rolled over. Very shellish. Also other creases in these make me feel about 65% certain that these are shell.

Further thoughts.

https://img24.imageshack.us/i/443435709o.jpg/
https://img844.imageshack.us/i/443435720o.jpg/
https://img441.imageshack.us/i/443435734o.jpg/
https://img521.imageshack.us/i/443435746o.jpg/


----------



## Cardinals5

I say shell - the puffiness around the brouging says shell to me.


----------



## AlanC

^Strong lean: Shell.


----------



## mcarthur

i vote for shell


----------



## fiddler

Any chance of the micro-creases being polish build up? The rolling looks a little excessive for calf. Then again brogueing says no.


----------



## The Rambler

I think the weight of the evidence is not shell, even though they are pretty wavy.


----------



## frosejr

fiddler said:


> Any chance of the micro-creases being polish build up? The rolling looks a little excessive for calf. Then again brogueing says no.


Nice looking but not shell.


----------



## fiddler

The Rambler said:


> I think the weight of the evidence is not shell, even though they are pretty wavy.


Yes, you must be right. Quest for German made Shell continues! 
Will pay off someday though.


----------



## LeeBiggerstaff

*Pair of Jarman LWB that I bought off eBay, but have not yet arrived.*

Marked as shell, bought on impulse but I am not sure if I made a good purchase.


jarmanshoes2 by LeeBiggerstaff, on Flickr


jarmanshoes3 by LeeBiggerstaff, on Flickr


----------



## The Rambler

fiddler said:


> Yes, you must be right. Quest for German made Shell continues!
> Will pay off someday though.


good luck, and post if successful - they've got the best horses!


----------



## mcarthur

i vote the shoes are not shell


----------



## Orgetorix

Gut says not shell, too recent, but what do y'all think?


----------



## The Rambler

I'll say not, shine doesn't look quite right, possible calf-creasing on vamp, eyelets don't look right (but then, I get it wrong with some regularity).


----------



## maximar

I say, Not Shell. It shows on the ripples.


----------



## Cardinals5

Definitely not shell - too recent, wrong soles, eyelets not puffy, and bal captoe shell models are fairly rare among all makers.


----------



## spielerman

*These shell? Numbers inside ans soles say so, but material, not so sure- especially the color*

Want them bad!... but see title... a little suspect.


----------



## Cardinals5

Those are definitely shell - 2681 is AE's code for the Bradley in burgundy shell cordovan, the dovetail heel indicates shell, and the shoes also have the typical physical features of shell. The color is correct for burgundy shell that has been exposed to light.


----------



## tonylumpkin

What Cardinal said.


----------



## 32rollandrock

I love this "no reserve" auction with no bids of less than $125 accepted.


----------



## spielerman

32rollandrock said:


> I love this "no reserve" auction with no bids of less than $125 accepted.


Thank you everyone here...

I know the $125 is low, and really not a no reserve.

In addition to this, love snipe tools... don't care for them myself... so beat by technology..


----------



## closerlook

fiddler said:


> Yes, you must be right. Quest for German made Shell continues!
> Will pay off someday though.


and these are absolutely shell.

i see the prevailing opinion is otherwise, but I have never been wrong, and my eye says shell.


----------



## fiddler

closerlook said:


> and these are absolutely shell.
> 
> i see the prevailing opinion is otherwise, but I have never been wrong, and my eye says shell.


Yes, you are quite right, they are shell cordovan or pferdeleder as they say. I simply posted the photos as an example of good looking shell shoes from German ebay (they are from Austrian maker Ludwig Reiter). I thought most people would see that they are shell.


----------



## closerlook

fiddler said:


> Yes, you are quite right, they are shell cordovan or pferdeleder as they say. I simply posted the photos as an example of good looking shell shoes from German ebay (they are from Austrian maker Ludwig Reiter). I thought most people would see that they are shell.


ah, i see.
great shoes.


----------



## jimmyfingers

nevermind


----------



## jimmyfingers

Tanino Crisci


----------



## Orgetorix




----------



## eagle2250

^^
Orgetorix: You are doing an outstanding job with your Blog. The daily pics of your attire, combined with your comparison or the prices you paid, with retail pricing for each outfit is brilliant. You make an absolutely persuasive case that one can dress well and at a very modest cost! Again, great effort!

Jimmyfingers: To my eyes, those shoes do not appear to be shell!


----------



## frosejr

jimmyfingers said:


> Tanino Crisci


definitely not


----------



## Orgetorix

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Orgetorix: You are doing an outstanding job with your Blog. The daily pics of your attire, combined with your comparison or the prices you paid, with retail pricing for each outfit is brilliant. You make an absolutely persuasive case that one can dress well and at a very modest cost! Again, great effort!


Thanks, Eagle! It's fun.


----------



## straw sandals

I'm so bad at this game. Thoughts about ?


----------



## The Rambler

not shell.


----------



## maximar

Not shell. Though not shell they are very nice and solid. I would go for those if were my size.


----------



## 32rollandrock

I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. My cobbler says yes, but I want to be sure. Inside numbers are faded but one is 92512. There is also 415XXX (too faded to decipher all). Forgive the large number of pictures.


----------



## The Deacon

Black Shell!


----------



## frosejr

The Deacon said:


> Black Shell!


Agreed


----------



## Steve Smith

I don't know about those. The "It isn't shell because I see microcreasing" crowd should click on the bottom middle thumbnail and study that photo a little bit.


----------



## palmettoking

Could that be polish build up?


----------



## The Rambler

so much caked on polish that it's hard to see if the broguing has the crispness of shell- SS has a point about microcreasing- eyelets don't look puffy enough; still, a cobbler who has the shoe in hand ought to be able to tell ...


----------



## tonylumpkin

I would say they are brown (maybe faded burgundy) shell that has dyed or lacquered black. Look under the laces and you can see brown coming through. The stitching doesn't appear to be black either. The dye or lacquer would account for the look that some are taking for micro creasing.


----------



## ChicagoTrad

Saw a pair or Florshiem's. They are black long wings, but are not labeled as imperials, but have the black interior with 'The Florsheim Shoe" label. They have a rubber heel, not a v-cleat (may have been swapped). 

Picture has a bit of the puffiness of shell, but it's hard to say if it is or isn't, so was wondering if Florsheim ever made a shell model that had the black interior and was "the florsheim shoe" model?


----------



## Steve Smith

ChicagoTrad said:


> Saw a pair or Florshiem's. They are black long wings, but are not labeled as imperials, but have the black interior with 'The Florsheim Shoe" label. They have a rubber heel, not a v-cleat (may have been swapped).
> 
> Picture has a bit of the puffiness of shell, but it's hard to say if it is or isn't, *so was wondering if Florsheim ever made a shell model that had the black interior and was "the florsheim shoe" model?*


Not that I have seen.


----------



## 32rollandrock

TL is right, these shoes were dyed, perhaps more than once. When I applied the Mac Method, the cordovan color came out on both previously black shoes, but not evenly (the shoes also shined up spectacularly). Rather than have different colored shoes, I took them to the cobbler and told him to make them match.



tonylumpkin said:


> I would say they are brown (maybe faded burgundy) shell that has dyed or lacquered black. Look under the laces and you can see brown coming through. The stitching doesn't appear to be black either. The dye or lacquer would account for the look that some are taking for micro creasing.


----------



## tonylumpkin

32rollandrock said:


> TL is right, these shoes were dyed, perhaps more than once. When I applied the Mac Method, the cordovan color came out on both previously black shoes, but not evenly (the shoes also shined up spectacularly). Rather than have different colored shoes, I took them to the cobbler and told him to make them match.


Can't wait to see how they turn out.


----------



## 32rollandrock

Uh, this is how they turned out.



tonylumpkin said:


> Can't wait to see how they turn out.


----------



## Cardinals5

Shell or not shell? My gut says not shell, but there are some shell-like characteristics.


----------



## tonylumpkin

^^^I'd say shell.


----------



## rabidawg

Those look like the bookbinder leather Church's uses.


----------



## Cardinals5

rabidawg said:


> Those look like the bookbinder leather Church's uses.


Good call, they're Royal Tweed by Cheaney, which is owned by Church's. Size 8.5D

I'm still thinking not shell, but here's the auction for anyone interested in asking the seller for more pictures ()


----------



## The Rambler

shell or not, that Cheany Royal Tweed line has some great looking shoes in it.


----------



## ChicagoTrad

Wondered if anyone had any thoughts on these. Given the description ("Harween's") and the lack of any information on the brand, McPhergus, I had my suspicions, but the cost wasn't too bad so I went ahead and bid on them:



Looking at them again, I am leaning toward shell, but would appreciate any thoughts.

thanks,


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ I'd say those are almost undoubtedly shell. For me, the calfskin tongues give them away.


----------



## spielerman

Cardinals5 said:


> Good call, they're Royal Tweed by Cheaney, which is owned by Church's. Size 8.5D
> 
> I'm still thinking not shell, but here's the auction for anyone interested in asking the seller for more pictures ()


I found those on eBay as well. Asked the seller for more photos, they are not shell.

But am crying right now since there was a pair of AE Randolphs in my size said worn once, no photos of the bottoms or close ups, that I'm sure were shells -sold before seller got back to me. :devil:


----------



## TheWGP

Cardinals5 said:


> For me, the calfskin tongues give them away.


I've seen you talk about this before - but this is the first time I've REALLY seen what you mean. Man, those are like an altogether different shade on the tongue! Polish will fix that right up since it's calfskin, though. Wonder how old those shoes are, to say "Genuine Horween's Cordovan" on the sole.


----------



## ChicagoTrad

Cardinals5 said:


> ^^ I'd say those are almost undoubtedly shell. For me, the calfskin tongues give them away.


Thanks Cardinals. Like WGP, I really see what you are talking about in those pictures (now that you pointed it out). Hopefully they look as good as the pictures


----------



## Cardinals5

TheWGP said:


> Polish will fix that right up since it's calfskin, though.


Actually, the tongues will never match the shell very well. They're both burgundy, but its always obvious they're different materials. In most cases, though, no one would ever notice the slight color difference. Hanovers in particular are notable for their calfskin tongues.


----------



## The Deacon

*YES to Florsheim shell wit black interior!*



ChicagoTrad said:


> Saw a pair or Florshiem's. They are black long wings, but are not labeled as imperials, but have the black interior with 'The Florsheim Shoe" label. They have a rubber heel, not a v-cleat (may have been swapped).
> 
> Picture has a bit of the puffiness of shell, but it's hard to say if it is or isn't, so was wondering if Florsheim ever made a shell model that had the black interior and was "the florsheim shoe" model?


I have sold three NOS pairs of these with the black inner sole with gold print stating the Florsheim Shoe. Two pair in burgundy and one in black. The innersole was cushioned throughout. The heels had a half toplift that was rubber, similar to Alden but straight across. I think that they were among the last shell cordovans the company made prior to the cessation and move to "made in India" calf and corrected grain models.:icon_headagainstwal


----------



## rabidawg

The Deacon said:


> I have sold three NOS pairs of these with the black inner sole with gold print stating the Florsheim Shoe. Two pair in burgundy and one in black. The innersole was cushioned throughout. The heels had a half toplift that was rubber, similar to Alden but straight across. I think that they were among the last shell cordovans the company made prior to the cessation and move to "made in India" calf and corrected grain models.:icon_headagainstwal


Like these, Deacon?


----------



## TheWGP

Cardinals5 said:


> Actually, the tongues will never match the shell very well. They're both burgundy, but its always obvious they're different materials. In most cases, though, no one would ever notice the slight color difference. Hanovers in particular are notable for their calfskin tongues.


I suppose so, but from a pure color standpoint I think I could get it close enough to be happy with - it's minor enough, and like you say hard to notice. In any case, I'm in favor of shell, regardless of whatever surrounds it! :thumbs-up:


----------



## ChicagoTrad

The Deacon said:


> I have sold three NOS pairs of these with the black inner sole with gold print stating the Florsheim Shoe. Two pair in burgundy and one in black. The innersole was cushioned throughout. The heels had a half toplift that was rubber, similar to Alden but straight across. I think that they were among the last shell cordovans the company made prior to the cessation and move to "made in India" calf and corrected grain models.:icon_headagainstwal


Thanks for the explanation. That would make sense. The pictures "looked" like Shell, but I was thrown by the black inner sole and the fact that it wasn't an Imperial. I don't think they sold.. so maybe I'll see if the seller gives me another shot.

thanks again.


----------



## The Deacon

rabidawg said:


> Like these, Deacon?


No, the shoes I described had GOLD script in large letters. But, I have sold these also after having bought 4 burgandy pair from a gentleman in England at $75 per pair.


----------



## DCdave

What about these ? I'm not as good at spotting the finer details like many here. The pictures a little blurry, so it's hard to get a good look at them.


----------



## joenobody0

I think not. It looks like micro creasing in the "waves".


----------



## AlanC

Definite no


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

What Allan said.

They also don't have the combination heel, which, for AE is a straight "calf" give away.


----------



## Cardinals5

These have me wavering. Looks to be some features of shell - puffiness around the brouging, the distinctive shine - but those also might be creases in the second picture. The seam near the heel counter doesn't bother me since a number of makers, Hanover mostly, used similar construction methods for their shells. What says the forum consensus?


----------



## AlanC

^Those creases in the second pic certainly raise red flags. It's a tough one, though. If it's shell, then it's a gorgeous and rare color.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Isn't that dark creasing across the vamp? Shell creases white, does it not?


----------



## srivats

Cards, I vote for shell.


----------



## Pentheos

Cards, I say no.


----------



## Orgetorix

I lean not shell. But I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## closerlook

I don't think so, but if they are inexpensive, you might go for it.


----------



## AdamsSutherland

I say not shell, too.


----------



## The Rambler

wavering, but there's something very shellish about the last, from the back, picture.


----------



## mcarthur

i vote not shell


----------



## Cardinals5

I see that pair has everyone confused. I'd take a risk since they're a BIN, but $50 is a bit steep if they're not shell. My fear is that they're Corfam since the maker, Nunn Bush, offered a number of different styles in Corfam in the 1960s. Arguing against Corfam is the seam on the heel counter (why have a seam for what is essentially plastic?). Anyway, for anyone who wants to take the risk, they're Nunn Bush (who did sell a fair amount of shells in the past) "Ankle Fashioned" (their good models) with v-cleat heels in size 8D for BIN $40 + $10 shipping ()

I e-mailed the seller asking for a picture of the vamp, but haven't heard back. If they do send me a picture I'll post the results here.


----------



## The Rambler

corfam is very tradly


----------



## spielerman

how about these?

sorry about the bad picture...


----------



## frosejr

spielerman said:


> how about these?
> 
> sorry about the bad picture...
> View attachment 2278


shell


----------



## AlanC

^Shell.


----------



## closerlook

i had my eye on those : (


----------



## Cardinals5

Finally got the seller to post pics of the vamp on those Nunn Bush lwbs - turns out they're clearly corrected grain.


----------



## DoghouseReilly

Yea or nay?


----------



## frosejr

DoghouseReilly said:


> Yea or nay?


I say yea


----------



## maximar

Shell


----------



## eagle2250

I would be more confident in this assessment if I could see more clearly into the depths of those creases but, given the information at hand, my guess is shell!


----------



## jwooten

How about


----------



## rabidawg

jwooten said:


> How about


Nope.


----------



## Pentheos

jwooten said:


> How about


Not even close.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ What he said.


----------



## spielerman




----------



## Cardinals5

Yes, but unwearable. I don't think I've ever seen Florsheim heels ground down that much.


----------



## rabidawg

Cardinals5 said:


> Yes, but unwearable. I don't think I've ever seen Florsheim heels ground down that much.


They look relined in the inside. Probably rode hard and put up wet.


----------



## spielerman

rabidawg said:


> They look relined in the inside. Probably rode hard and put up wet.


recrafting for sure would be in order- death heels need to be changed out anyway...


----------



## SouthernLiveOak

What say you knowers of all thing shell?


----------



## closerlook

^^^ nope.

what about these:


----------



## frosejr

closerlook said:


> ^^^ nope.
> 
> what about these:


Nope and nope


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Nope and Nope. I agree!


----------



## Cardinals5

Lotus (made in England) that look like unmarked shell. Lotus used to offer shell shoes, but I'm not positive about these. Anyone who's interested, they're 7E (not 7.5E as indicated in the auction) and will go for peanuts on eBay ()


----------



## palmettoking

Those look like shell to me. And agreed, whoever gets those (a hobbit) will get a great deal on some PTBs.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

What do you know about Lotus cards?

I have a mysterious pair of shell tassels whose manufactur's logo is no longer visable.

All I can make out is "London" on the insole.


----------



## frosejr

palmettoking said:


> Those look like shell to me. And agreed, whoever gets those (a hobbit) will get a great deal on some PTBs.


I agree, unmarked shell


----------



## Cardinals5

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> What do you know about Lotus cards?
> 
> I have a mysterious pair of shell tassels whose manufactur's logo is no longer visable.
> 
> All I can make out is "London" on the insole.


Not that much - I had a pair of their shells in the past, but haven't seen too many of their other models. There seem to have been a fair number of rather obscure English makers who used shell in the past (Worthmore, Lotus, I forget, etc.)


----------



## maximar

SouthernLiveOak said:


> What say you knowers of all thing shell?


Nope.


----------



## jamesensor

*Opinions on these?*

Model #2350 - one off a model listed in the hunter's guide...


----------



## Cardinals5

Pretty much impossible to tell. Those are late model made in usa Hanovers and I don't remember whether they were making shell at that time. The puffiness around the eyelets and some of the brouging suggests shell, but I can't quite make out if those are microcreases on the vamp. Probably the only way to really figure it out is to ask the seller for a closer picture of the vamp. The model numbers can help, but this is clearly a later version of the traditional Hanover 2350, which always used a seam in the shell around the heel counters.


----------



## jamesensor

Cardinals5 said:


> Pretty much impossible to tell. Those are late model made in usa Hanovers and I don't remember whether they were making shell at that time. The puffiness around the eyelets and some of the brouging suggests shell, but I can't quite make out if those are microcreases on the vamp. Probably the only way to really figure it out is to ask the seller for a closer picture of the vamp. The model numbers can help, but this is clearly a later version of the traditional Hanover 2350, which always used a seam in the shell around the heel counters.


Interesting - thanks for the thorough explanation. I'll see if the seller will take additional photos.


----------



## frosejr

maximar said:


> Nope.


Agree, the Nettleton tassels are not shell.


----------



## Pentheos

^^^^^^^^^

Nettleton tassels are not shell.

Hanover supraflexers aren't shell either.


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Agreed on both counts!


----------



## SouthernLiveOak

*Thoughts?*


----------



## spielerman

SouthernLiveOak said:


> [/QUOTE]
> 
> ^nope


----------



## Cardinals5

Thoughts? They're a BIN in my size, but what makes me hesitate is the inside says "Genuine leather upper and lining - balance man-made." The soles do look a bit cheap for shell.


----------



## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> Thoughts? They're a BIN in my size, but what makes me hesitate is the inside says "Genuine leather upper and lining - balance man-made." The soles do look a bit cheap for shell.


not shell!


----------



## closerlook

stuart mcguire shoes are stamped shell on sole when they are so.


----------



## DoghouseReilly

*Aristocrafts, round two*

I've never owned a pair of shell shoes, so I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse (heh), but after the consensus here backed up my own amateurish assessment, I went ahead and bought this pair of J&M Aristocrafts. I have heard they are supposed to say "cordovan" on the sole, but despite their minimal wear, they do not. What do you say, round two?


----------



## rabidawg

DoghouseReilly said:


> I've never owned a pair of shell shoes, so I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse (heh), but after the consensus here backed up my own amateurish assessment, I went ahead and bought this pair of J&M Aristocrafts. I have heard they are supposed to say "cordovan" on the sole, but despite their minimal wear, they do not. What do you say, round two?


Those are corrected grain. See those tiny little wrinkles in the creases? That's one of the giveaways in this case.


----------



## DoghouseReilly

rabidawg said:


> Those are corrected grain. See those tiny little wrinkles in the creases? That's one of the giveaways in this case.


Ah, that's what I was thinking after taking them out of the box. Oh well; they are nice shoes and virtually unworn. I think I will enjoy them anyway. Thanks all.


----------



## spielerman

Ok, still not sure on this, toe looks like could be corrected grain given some of the color coming off, but don't see the micro creasing..


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Undoubtedly shell


----------



## eagle2250

^^
The creasing says it all...those shoes are shell!


----------



## spielerman

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> The creasing says it all...those shoes are shell!


 - BIN on ebay for $50 + 10 shipping... florsheims...good deal?


----------



## The Rambler

completely agree in this case, though one thing I've learned from this thread is that worn in calf that's a little too big for the wearer, and not shoe-treed, get's shell-like waves on the vamp (though they are microcreased in the troughs).


----------



## mcarthur

spielerman said:


> Ok, still not sure on this, toe looks like could be corrected grain given some of the color coming off, but don't see the micro creasing..


i vote shell


----------



## Cardinals5

spielerman said:


> - BIN on ebay for $50 + 10 shipping... florsheims...good deal?


Not bad. It's a rare model for Florsheim shells.


----------



## The Deacon

spielerman said:


> - BIN on ebay for $50 + 10 shipping... florsheims...good deal?


Very Nice deal. I like the thick shell on those Florsheims! I recently lucked into similar Bamoral shell wingtips from Bostonian and I like your leather better.


----------



## Keydet

Thoughts on these? Advertised as Polo. Have not been able to get any additional information re: make or model #'s. The picture is not great, and looks like something going on in the crease on the toe of the closest shoe that makes me wary.


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Calf, not shell!


----------



## Pentheos

^^^

No way, no how.


----------



## Rowdiefan

OK Experts, what do you think of these: Florsheim Imperials with V Cleat. Eyelets have some sort of copper(?) reinforcement on inside.

https://img215.imageshack.us/i/dscf2763x.jpg/https://img832.imageshack.us/i/dscf2761x.jpg/https://img709.imageshack.us/i/dscf2762p.jpg/https://img508.imageshack.us/i/dscf2760x.jpg/https://img651.imageshack.us/i/dscf2758e.jpg/https://img196.imageshack.us/i/dscf2759v.jpg/


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I vote shell.


----------



## mcarthur

i vote shell


----------



## zbix

They look like shell, but you could also try and confirm using the 5-digit model number.


----------



## Rowdiefan

How so? 

They say 92621, which is listed as shell on Cardinals5's hunting guide post. Any other way? Thanks!


----------



## zbix

Then I'd say w/o a doubt you know. They look the part, and then they have the correct model number. Great looking shoes.


----------



## AdamsSutherland

I'd bet shell that those are shell.

Most indicative feature? Rolling creases? No. V Cleat? No. Combination tongue? Yes.


----------



## AdamsSutherland

Double Post.


----------



## spielerman

Bad pictures, but hope good enough to tell.. I'm saying shell...


----------



## Cardinals5

Yep, definitely shell


----------



## spielerman

Cardinals5 said:


> Yep, definitely shell


Thanks, I forgot to bid, so hoping a fellow forum member won for the low price of $36 +10 shipping... ahh having to work  and not using a snipe...


----------



## Orgetorix

First 9.5 D to PM me gets a link to some unmarked shells that legitimately look like they've been worn once.


----------



## closerlook

i bid 35.00 and lost on those darltons.


----------



## LeeBiggerstaff

*Made in England - Ralph Lauren Polo*

Thoughts on these?

by LeeBiggerstaff, on Flickr

by LeeBiggerstaff, on Flickr


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Shell, methinks!


----------



## Cardinals5

I gave those the once over a day or two ago - they're not shell. PRL hasn't done burgundy shell in a ****'s age, if ever. If you look at the toes in the first pic you'll notice an unreal color of red peaking through the burgundy brush-off coating - it's indicative of corrected grain where scuffs have knocked off the outer coating. The second pic also shows creasing on the edge of the vamp and the shine is all wrong.


----------



## mcarthur

i vote not shell


----------



## Cardinals5

Here's a tough one - NOS Nunn Bush v-cleats. Shell or not shell? The puffiness around the brouging looks good to me, as does the overall quality of shine, and those small scratches below the lacing - if cg I would think the scratches would look different. That said, I really can't tell.


----------



## Orgetorix

Would anyone bother with a pieced tongue on CG?


----------



## The Deacon

Exquisite Black Nunn Shells!!! You sellin?


----------



## Cardinals5

Nope, not my auction. They're NOS, size 11.5D, BIN $125 + shipping ()


----------



## mcarthur

i vote for shell


----------



## St. Charles Ave.

Cardinals5 said:


> Nope, not my auction. They're NOS, size 11.5D, BIN $125 + shipping ()


Great looking shoe.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Gorgeous indeed!


----------



## greekgeek

Cardinals5 said:


> Nope, not my auction. They're NOS, size 11.5D, BIN $125 + shipping ()


Use caution folks, these are the Corfam shoes from the eBay thread listed by another seller.


----------



## greekgeek

OK Here are two more Florsheim Imperials which give me pause. Very interested to hear what your thoughts are.

Exhibit A:










Exhibit B:


----------



## Cardinals5

I e-mailed the seller about that top pair of Florsheim Imperial tassels to ask about the model number, but they apparently sold before the seller could respond to my e-mail. If the model number is: 93231 they are definitely shell. I hesistated to buy because Imperial tassels in cg are more common than the shell version. That said, the top pair sure looks like shell to me.


----------



## Cardinals5

Florsheim Yumas - looks like mellowed burgundy shell to me, but I'm not positive.


----------



## eagle2250

^^
I don't think they are shell. The absence of creasing across the vamp of the shoes is misleading but, look at the sueded nature of the inside surface of the shoes. I thought shell cordovan featured a smooth inner surface. At least my Alden, made for BB, (unlined) LHS's feature a smooth inner finish! :icon_scratch:


----------



## SouthernLiveOak




----------



## joenobody0

SouthernLiveOak said:


>


Shell


----------



## frosejr

SouthernLiveOak said:


>


shell


----------



## mcarthur

frosejr said:


> shell


what is the style number?


----------



## srivats

Cardinals5 said:


> Florsheim Yumas - looks like mellowed burgundy shell to me, but I'm not positive.
> ]


Cards, these don't like shell to me at all.


----------



## SouthernLiveOak

mcarthur said:


> what is the style number?


563?

These are for sale on the bay, listed at $150. But the seller will take $100, plus $20 to ship from Canada. I was going to buy them, but it turns out they are EE not D, as the seller originally had them listed.


----------



## mcarthur

SouthernLiveOak said:


> 563?
> 
> These are for sale on the bay, listed at $150. But the seller will take $100, plus $20 to ship from Canada. I was going to buy them, but it turns out they are EE not D, as the seller originally had them listed.


563-color 8 shell tassel


----------



## ChicagoTrad

Any thoughts on these?

Johnston & Murphy Heritage loafers with a kiltie:



I'm leaning toward shell, but am not sure. Have never seen a shell with that kind of kiltie on them, but then again I haven't been looking!


----------



## closerlook

strangely, yes those look like shell. they have sold.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

^
Shell or not, would any of you actually wear a wingtip-tassle-kiltie loafer?


----------



## greekgeek

^ I vote not shell on the J&M. Heritage was a lower level line for J&M, always corrected grain from the models I have seen.


----------



## dorji

^Shell.


----------



## frosejr

/\ shell


----------



## ChicagoTrad

these look to be unmarked Florsheim Shell longwings in black if anyone is interested. 9B's. Pricey, but an offer may pull the price down.


----------



## Orgetorix

Shell.


----------



## SouthernLiveOak

*FootJoy*


----------



## The Deacon

^^ These Footjoys look like the JM Crown Aristocraft shell tassels I walked the streets of Boston in today.


----------



## SouthernLiveOak

and these?


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Absolutely not - those'll be pretty nice calf (better than current AE), but they're not shell


----------



## SouthernLiveOak

Cardinals5 said:


> ^^ Absolutely not - those'll be pretty nice calf (better than current AE), but they're not shell


What about the Footjoy tassels? Thanks!


----------



## frosejr

SouthernLiveOak said:


> and these?


Agree with Cards


----------



## The Rambler

also, the footjoys don't look too shellish to me. SLO, those French Shriner shoe trees are wonderful.


----------



## Orgetorix

Shell or not?


----------



## rabidawg

Not shell.


----------



## eagle2250

^^
+1, definitely not!


----------



## mikeh

I don't think so either, even though they pucker a little around the lace holes. The creasing on one of the shoes doesn't look like shell. My question though, is who puts out cigarettes on their footbed?


----------



## PedanticTurkey

If they were calf there'd be obvious creasing. They're shell, just really ragged out.


----------



## Cardinals5

Orgetorix said:


> Shell or not?


Definitely not shell - shell splits, but doesn't make ragged tears like this:


----------



## Orgetorix

I agree the long scratches don't look like shell, but the splits and cracks in the broguing above looks exactly like what I've seen on several pairs of shells.


----------



## mikeh

What about the creasing at the ball of the foot on the upper (left) shoe in picture 4.










That doesn't seem shell to me. The scratches almost look like the effects of an errant razor knife or some other mishap so I've been ignoring them.

I asked the seller for the codes from inside. I know, it's cheating, and if people don't want me to post the results I won't, but I wanted to know for my own future knowledge.


----------



## PedanticTurkey

It's not even close. Look at the color of the leather, the patina, the shine, the cracking, the ripples and the near absence of fine creasing. It doesn't look anything like calf.


----------



## maximar

I wonder where the owner used those shoes. Will they be revived to serve another owner?


----------



## mikeh

maximar said:


> I wonder where the owner used those shoes.


Razor blade factory


----------



## greekgeek

I vote dried out shell on those longwings.


----------



## greekgeek

greekgeek said:


> OK Here are two more Florsheim Imperials which give me pause. Very interested to hear what your thoughts are.
> 
> Exhibit A:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exhibit B:


As an update neither of these turned out to be shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ That sucks - I thought the burgundy pair really looked like shell

Here's a pair of shells that were rode hard and put away wet. Talk about a recovery mission.


----------



## Pentheos

^^^

Those look awful, beyond recovery probably. Although, if B. Nelson could do a "before" and "after," it'd be a great way to advertise their service.


----------



## Trad-ish

Pentheos said:


> ^^^
> 
> Those look awful, beyond recovery probably. Although, if B. Nelson could do a "before" and "after," it'd be a great way to advertise their service.


I don't know. Those look _really_ bad. If I were B. Nelson, I might punt on the shoes because even with the restoration that might not look worthy of the title "Restored by B. Nelson". That said, like Pentheos said, if B. Nelson COULD restore those shoes, he'd be a legend.


----------



## maximar

Cardinals5 said:


> ^^ That sucks - I thought the burgundy pair really looked like shell
> 
> Here's a pair of shells that were rode hard and put away wet. Talk about a recovery mission.


For all we know, these could have been taken from an exhumed trad.


----------



## Taken Aback

Are grave robbers after shell now?


----------



## maximar

I wonder if they have the suit that came with the shoes?


----------



## eagle2250

If the Trad in questioned looked anything like those shoes, they should have left him in the ground...with his shoes still on his feet!


----------



## Taken Aback

If only his undertaker knew of the mac method.


----------



## maximar

Taken Aback said:


> If only his undertaker knew of the mac method.


With a quart of Venetian cream. These are good to go! An overnight soak will work wonders!


----------



## conductor

Shell or not? Something actually in my size, anyway! 



This second pair seems legit - thinking of putting in a serious offer!


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Not shell

On the other hand, pretty sure these are Alden for BB shell ptbs, 8.5D, BIN $45 + 8 shipping. They've been resoled and look fairly old.


----------



## spielerman

How about these? NOS Keith Highlander all leather soles with v cleat, leather lined. Never worn, not wrinkled anywhere. I have a few pair of shell shoes, been watching this thread, but these shoes and the leather are substantial. A few light scratches are a lighter color, but I don't know. Model Numbers inside size 9 12593R 8 second line B/D 3570V


----------



## Cardinals5

I say absolutely "yes" to those Keith Highlanders. The whitish residue on the vamp near the lacing makes them shell. The depth of color is also right.


----------



## conductor

The second link on my previous post is legit, right?


----------



## The Deacon

conductor said:


> The second link on my previous post is legit, right?


Quite right! Been looking at those for 3months now. Identicle to the vintage cognac shell Bostonians I tried to sell on this forum two years ago in 12EEE.


----------



## frosejr

conductor said:


> Shell or not? Something actually in my size, anyway!
> 
> This second pair seems legit - thinking of putting in a serious offer!


The second pair says "Genuine Shell Cordovan" right on the sole of the shoe.


----------



## conductor

Shell, right?


----------



## maximar

conductor said:


> Shell, right?


Nope. The soles gave them away.


----------



## rabidawg

Nope.


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

AE generally use a combination heel for cordovan, as maximar noted, and in the third picture you can see some microcreasing--barely, but it's there.


----------



## frosejr

conductor said:


> Shell, right?


Not shell


----------



## greekgeek

spielerman said:


> How about these? NOS Keith Highlander all leather soles with v cleat, leather lined. Never worn, not wrinkled anywhere. I have a few pair of shell shoes, been watching this thread, but these shoes and the leather are substantial. A few light scratches are a lighter color, but I don't know. Model Numbers inside size 9 12593R 8 second line B/D 3570V


For $21 you did well :icon_hailthee: .


----------



## bretron

Brand new here, and very much a pupil when it comes to spotting shells. Just copped these off of the 'Bay. Whatcha think (pics are kinda crappy)?



I am always a sucker when it comes to taking a chance on a sale--- figure they'd work out either way cause at least they'd fit!


----------



## St. Charles Ave.

I'd say yes.


----------



## brantley11

^ I say Shell because of the rolls and the puffiness around the eyelets.


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

Pics are _very_ crappy, but, yes, they are shell. (And so are the PTBs behind them.)


----------



## bretron

Thx, guys! I'll bump this thread with better photos when the gunboats finally pull ashore... other aspect of them I'm intersted in is who made em- looking forward to pulling back that old crappy insole! Seller said there's a bunch of markings, but "wasn't available to report them before auction close[d]". (BTW, Cardinal: any updates to your hunter's guide to cordovan model #s?)

FYI: there's a dude on ebay right now with a huge stock and a very very green knowledge about his inventory. just sold some vcleat imperial cordovan longwings in VG+ condition for around $50; too long and narrow, otherwise I'd picked em up...

Cheers, and goodnight...


----------



## frosejr

bretron said:


> Brand new here, and very much a pupil when it comes to spotting shells. Just copped these off of the 'Bay. Whatcha think (pics are kinda crappy)?
> 
> I am always a sucker when it comes to taking a chance on a sale--- figure they'd work out either way cause at least they'd fit!


I think yes.


----------



## justuhgeek

Here's a tough one(at least to me).:icon_headagainstwal Don't know whether or not to pull the trigger. Half of me is convinced they are shell, the other half convinced they are calfskin. Let me know what you think.


----------



## Cardinals5

looks like corrected grain to me - and the welt looks like plastic


----------



## justuhgeek

You have a good eye. Forgot to mention, the soles are manmade.


----------



## well-kept

Not shell


----------



## frosejr

Not shell...I've never heard of shell on a manmade sole


----------



## justuhgeek

Thanks for confirming my doubts. :aportnoy:


----------



## mcarthur

Cardinals5 said:


> looks like corrected grain to me - and the welt looks like plastic


i second


----------



## bretron

Shell?


----------



## frosejr

bretron said:


> Shell?


Maybe, but is there a side shot in the listing? Or a closer look at the toe?


----------



## Cardinals5

From that single pic, my gut says shell (the little dark spots on the vamps of the shoes suggests shell to me)


----------



## bretron

^^ oh and they're Hanover LB Shepards...


----------



## maximar

95% shell. 5% Doubt


----------



## bretron

Keep rollin on my prior post and add this one:


----------



## conductor

Still new at this, but I'll say no on the Nunn-Bush. Me thinks I see some micro-creasing there....


----------



## eagle2250

Shoes pictured in post # 677 are shell. Shoes referenced in post #682 are not shell.


----------



## Mr Jones

*Hanover Shells?*

Found a pair of Hanovers today. They have pretty smooth waves on the toes. There are no size or leather/last code marks of any kind on the insides, is that unusual? The insole is marked "GENUINE LEATHER INSOLE" and the outsole is marked "MADE IN U.S.A."

Photos here:


----------



## bretron

I say shell cause of the puffiness around the eyelets. What say others?


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Undoubtedly shell


----------



## frosejr

Mr Jones said:


> Found a pair of Hanovers today. They have pretty smooth waves on the toes. There are no size or leather/last code marks of any kind on the insides, is that unusual? The insole is marked "GENUINE LEATHER INSOLE" and the outsole is marked "MADE IN U.S.A."
> 
> Photos here:


They are shellicious!


----------



## justuhgeek

The Hanovers look like shell IMO. Nunn Bush, no. Has Nunn Bush ever created shell cordovan shoes at all?

Any thoughts on these?


----------



## closerlook

Mr Jones said:


> Found a pair of Hanovers today. They have pretty smooth waves on the toes. There are no size or leather/last code marks of any kind on the insides, is that unusual? The insole is marked "GENUINE LEATHER INSOLE" and the outsole is marked "MADE IN U.S.A."
> 
> Photos here:


could you measure them? if they are in the size range of a member, someone may get very lucky if you are willing to part with them


----------



## Cardinals5

justuhgeek said:


> Has Nunn Bush ever created shell cordovan shoes at all?
> Any thoughts on these?


Yes, Nunn Bush used to sell shell shoes, but it's been so long it's rarely worth looking for them on eBay.

The shoes you pictured are not shell - the color is too even and the leather looks flat (flat looking leather with a high shine is corrected grain)


----------



## DFPyne

Thoughts Gang?


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Not shell!


----------



## DFPyne

eagle2250 said:


> Not shell!


Shows how much I still have to learn. Back to the books. :icon_study:

Thanks.


----------



## maximar

Worse, CG!


----------



## bretron

Newer, non 5-nail Florhseim Imperial LWs; leather type "92654"- couldn't find on Card's shell list. what say the crew?


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The pics are not very clear. Shame on me but I'd venture CG.


----------



## bretron

^^^ My thoughts as well... tempting, but I think I'm gonna pass


----------



## conductor

What about ?


----------



## dorji

^ Yes.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Absolutely.


----------



## conductor

I thought so. Thanks you for the verification. Often I see this color shoe listed as cordovan, which it is, but occasionally it looks as if the seller is attempting to be vague about whether it is the leather or the color that is being referred to. I thinks the seller means the color in this case, but they also happen to be shell.


----------



## conductor

Damn! Outbid on the Florsheim's on ebay.....


----------



## The Deacon

shell for $67 or corrected grain? Looks like the last iteration of shell before India made.


----------



## hookem12387

Looks like slam dunk shell. Hope it was you that got 'em


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

^
Yup, those are the last of the pre-India shell florsheims. Great deal.

Let us know how they fit.


----------



## greekgeek

The Deacon said:


> shell for $67 or corrected grain? Looks like the last iteration of shell before India made.


Great deal, defnately shell. I was watching those but decided not to bid as they are for biiiiiig feet :icon_smile_big:


----------



## The Deacon

Looks like slam dunk shell. Hope it was you that got 'em YEP!! Twas me.



Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> ^
> Yup, those are the last of the pre-India shell florsheims. Great deal.
> 
> Let us know how they fit.


They are a quarter of an inch longer than my 12D burgundy v-cleated vintage Florsheim Royal Imperial shells and they fit fine. I was stunned by their condition when they arrived yesterday. It is as though the former owner just peeled the price sticker from the inside of the pair, wore them around the block and then put them back in the box for 14 years. Supple and still have the new shell smell. Another surprise was that I had forgotten that this iteration of the model has the cushioned full inner sole and thicker leather inner lining which takes up space so they run small, making them a non-slipping comfortable fit for me. Thank you Jesus!


----------



## eris

Seller says yay, I'm leaning towards nay


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ looks like corrected grain to me.


----------



## dorji

Not shell, IMO. Keep looking :icon_smile:


----------



## Bucksfan

Funny, I was just looking at those. I came to the same conclusion.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

I respectfully disagree.


----------



## The Rambler

Clearly not shell, but "cordovan" is also a color, that color (more or less); perhaps seller is referring to the color?


----------



## The Deacon

I think they are shell...


----------



## Cardinals5

eris, you can just pm the seller and ask for the numbers inside the shoe. The model number for Florsheim Royal Imperial shell cordovan saddles is: 97324.


----------



## eris

Thanks, I might do that!


----------



## eris

Not shell. Hope no one on here bought 'em


----------



## Cardinals5

Tough call - Brooks Brothers "Brooks English" - I've seen a pair of Brooks English in shell before, but I'm not sure about these.


----------



## eagle2250

The pics offered by the seller, really don't make it easy to determine but, my guess is that they are shell cordovan.


----------



## mcarthur

it is a tough call-i vote for shell


----------



## maximar

Shell


----------



## zightx

Looks like shell, no crease on the toe.


----------



## red sweatpants

Jack Henry Kansas City - thoughts?


----------



## Cardinals5

Corrected grain - microcreases on the vamp


----------



## red sweatpants

Thanks, Cards. I expected as much, but the eyelets had we wondering.


----------



## tonylumpkin

red sweatpants said:


> Jack Henry Kansas City - thoughts?


Probably Corfam.


----------



## DFPyne




----------



## eagle2250

^^
+1. Good call, Cardinals5!


----------



## Cardinals5

DF, something looks off on those longwings. I'd guess not shell.


----------



## maximar

I say not because of the creases on the bottom shoe.


----------



## Cardinals5

Pretty sure these are late model, made in usa, Florsheim imperial black shell ptbs, but I'm only about 95% sure they're shell so let's see what others think.

If anyone's interested, they're 10.5C and were only worn a couple of times ()


----------



## Cardinals5

these look like shell as well, but the pics are terrible (8C with a BIN of $40)


----------



## greekgeek

Cardinals5 said:


> Pretty sure these are late model, made in usa, Florsheim imperial black shell ptbs, but I'm only about 95% sure they're shell so let's see what others think.
> 
> If anyone's interested, they're 10.5C and were only worn a couple of times ()


Heh, I put in a bid a few minutes ago after IDing them as shell (independently...).


----------



## maximar

shell


----------



## Cardinals5

greekgeek said:


> Heh, I put in a bid a few minutes ago after IDing them as shell (independently...).


They were pretty easy to spot so no extra credit for me - here's hoping you snag them with a low offer.


----------



## The Deacon

conductor said:


> Damn! Outbid on the Florsheim's on ebay.....


Were you going for the Shell longwings that I won?


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

I have an identical pair on etsy right now, size 9.5 E. If anyone here is wanting them, I'll take a reasonable offer.


Cardinals5 said:


> Pretty sure these are late model, made in usa, Florsheim imperial black shell ptbs, but I'm only about 95% sure they're shell so let's see what others think. If anyone's interested, they're 10.5C and were only worn a couple of times ()


----------



## GentlemanGeorge

I should say: mine are nearly identical--mine have the V-cleat and the familiar script logo in the waist. Also only worn once or twice. (I tried to edit the above post, but it wouldn't take...)


----------



## The Deacon

Two years ago I had a pair of coveted vintage NOS J&M Crown Aristocraft Shell Cordovan tassel loafers tear like a piece of wet card board as I slipped my foot into them. Broke my heart. The patina on those babies... I've read on the forums that some people condition old shell cordovans for months b4 attempting to put them on. I am a better judge these days of levels/grades of dryness on shell when it's in my hands.


----------



## conductor

If they were burgundy size 13 B or C?, then probably. Also, the pair I was bidding on was not listed as shell. Thanks to my education on this site I could tell from the pics!


The Deacon said:


> Were you going for the Shell longwings that I won?


----------



## brantley11

I picked up and I think they are shell, but I I'm not 100%. What say yea?


----------



## frosejr

brantley11 said:


> I picked up and I think they are shell, but I I'm not 100%. What say yea?


I think shell. Resoled, reheeled, but shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

No doubt about it, Brantley. 92649 is the model number for black shell longwings.


----------



## pejm

Do the Brooks Brothers made by Alden carry the same model number as their regular Alden counterparts? I purchased a pair of BB with the model number 2160. Can I correctly assume they're the sames shoe as the Alden 2160? (Cap toe blucher, color 8)

Thanks in advance.


----------



## The Deacon

Just snagged these, wondered why they sat so long. I am pretty sure they are shell although I can't find reference on Shoemart or Alden Carmel site. Opinions?


----------



## frosejr

^^I think shell


----------



## greekgeek

The Deacon said:


> Just snagged these, wondered why they sat so long. I am pretty sure they are shell although I can't find reference on Shoemart or Alden Carmel site. Opinions?
> View attachment 2904
> View attachment 2905


They look great.


----------



## eagle2250

^^+1 and there is no doubt that they are shell! :thumbs-up:


----------



## The Deacon

J&M Heritage made in Tenn. Shell or no?


----------



## greekgeek

The Deacon said:


> J&M Heritage made in Tenn. Shell or no?
> 
> View attachment 2917
> View attachment 2918


^ No chance of those being shell, IMHO.


----------



## joenobody0

pejm said:


> Do the Brooks Brothers made by Alden carry the same model number as their regular Alden counterparts? I purchased a pair of BB with the model number 2160. Can I correctly assume they're the sames shoe as the Alden 2160? (Cap toe blucher, color 8)
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I'm not sure if that's the case since Alden claims that some of the BB shoes are made on a different last. The BB captoes (both open and closed lacing) are made on the Snap last. I have the BB captoe Bluchers and can confirm the last is nearly the same, but not identical, to the Hampton.

Also the BB wingtips are supposedly not on the Plaza last. They're on the "M69" I think - though I might be recalling incorrectly. There's a similar alphanumeric name for the Barrie like last the BB PTBs are built on.

You should email Alden. There's a ~1/3 chance they will reply with a helpful email telling you what lasts all the BB shoes are made on. In my experience there's a 2/3 chance you will hear nothing in return!


----------



## mr.v

hi, what do you think of these?

https://picasaweb.google.com/117321...key=Gv1sRgCKiesoDdqtzw4AE#5657905713562556994

https://picasaweb.google.com/117321...key=Gv1sRgCKiesoDdqtzw4AE#5657907975018536114


----------



## brantley11

mr.v said:


> hi, what do you think of these?
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/117321...key=Gv1sRgCKiesoDdqtzw4AE#5657905713562556994
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/117321...key=Gv1sRgCKiesoDdqtzw4AE#5657907975018536114


They appear to me to be shell. What is the brand? And what size, may I ask?


----------



## mr.v

brantley11, they are lee kee. from my collection, size 10.5. 
on a side note, can you help me? what's the best way to attach pictures on this page and not have them show up as links, but as actual pics. this is my first attempt at posting anywhere. i would appreciate your advice on the matter.


----------



## maximar

Shell. A lot of horse butt on those boots. 

Click the picture icon above and not the one with the globe with a paperclip on the button. Then paste link of pics.


----------



## mr.v

maximar said:


> Shell. A lot of horse butt on those boots.
> 
> Click the picture icon above and not the one with the globe with a paperclip on the button. Then paste link of pics.


maximar, click on the picture of the little tree next to the film reel? i have, it only gives me a url option. i would like to post directly from my pictures and not have to upload them to the internet before hand, can i? how? thanks for your help and patience.


----------



## maximar

I don't think that option is available. It's the reason why I hardly post personal pics especially on the WAYWT thread. I Have so many things i can offer at the thrift exchange too. It's not that I'm lazy, well... I am. That's why I don't post pics.


----------



## frosejr

*Try this*

Click "reply to thread"

Instead of "quick reply" click "go advanced"

When you click the little frame with the tree in it, you should have two tabs: "From Computer" and "From URL."

Click "From Computer" and search for the picture you want to upload.

Click "Insert Images."

You should be all set.


----------



## fashion_victim

What do you guys think of these? They are vintage v-cleated Royal Imperials that I got for $50 off ebay. It never occured to me they might be shell until I received them and I noticed the leather was very different than what I was used to (I've never had a pair of cordovans before).

They are of course much darker than they appear in the photos; stupid flash!

https://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2pri3vd&s=7
https://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=rrp360&s=7

Thanks!


----------



## frosejr

fashion_victim said:


> What do you guys think of these? They are vintage v-cleated Royal Imperials that I got for $50 off ebay. It never occured to me they might be shell until I received them and I noticed the leather was very different than what I was used to (I've never had a pair of cordovans before).
> 
> They are of course much darker than they appear in the photos; stupid flash!
> 
> https://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2pri3vd&s=7
> https://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=rrp360&s=7
> 
> Thanks!


Shell


----------



## dorji

^^Yep.


----------



## mr.v

shell, lucky you.


----------



## fashion_victim

Thanks guys! Exciting!


----------



## maximar

Congrats! Consider yourself blessed. 
Looks like the former owner used a different shade of polish on them. You can clean them and at the same time moisturize with Venetian shoe cream. This will also bring them to a shimmering shine. Incase you find them unacceptable my size is 9e. I promise to take care of them. :biggrin:

Check out the shoes on this link:
https://horween.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/dsc_0002.jpg


----------



## conductor

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MENS-HANIGS-CHICAGO-CORDOVAN-WINGTIP-OXFORDS-13-B-/220829363628
Are these shell? I believe that they are, but I wanted to get a second (or third!) opinion.


----------



## greekgeek

Cardinals5 said:


> Pretty sure these are late model, made in usa, Florsheim imperial black shell ptbs, but I'm only about 95% sure they're shell so let's see what others think.
> 
> If anyone's interested, they're 10.5C and were only worn a couple of times ()


Cards, happily i can confirm that these are indeed shell cordovan. Smooth, soft and supple.


----------



## conductor

Allen Edmonds tassel loafers in perfect condition 


shell??


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Sorry to say I believe those are corrected grain.


----------



## tonylumpkin

^^Agreed. The finish doesn't have the depth of shell and AE shells would have a combo heel and Redenbach soles.


----------



## greekgeek

These are listed as shell (and LB Sheppard's often are...) but to me these look very much like old school corrected grain to me. What do you guys think?


----------



## The Deacon

Correct.


----------



## CMDC

I agree. Not shell in my opinion. The eyelets show no puffing.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

Toss up, some of the shots look shell-y, some CG.

However, I'm not sure I've ever seen CG hanover ptbs, esp with those insoles and soles.
And as the seller has listed them as shell, with ebay's return policy you have _nothing_ to lose if they turn out to be CG.


----------



## mr.v

not shell, you can see micro creasing between eyelets (last picture)


----------



## greekgeek

I cannot seem to pull up auction pics now that it has ended but I did not win these, appear to be unmarked Whiskey shell cordovan Aldens.

Nice price, assuming shell although they are well worn.


----------



## jwooten

The seller has these listed as shell, but they look like calf all the way to me.



Thoughts?


----------



## closerlook

unquestionably calf.

sometimes sellers like to rely on the indeterminate status of the word cordovan (which stands as a color and/or a material) to drive bids higher.


----------



## eagle2250

^^+1.
LOL. Indeed, if those are not calf, feel free to call me the "Horse's a**!"


----------



## Bandit44

I can't tell on these, but I'm thinking not shell.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Obviously, new shell is a tough beast to identify, however, these look like shell to me and very well polished at that.


----------



## straw sandals

It's a shame that the card in the foreground is cut off. "Congratulations on your $$$ leather"... Perhaps you could ask the seller for a second picture.


----------



## Mr Jones

Found a pair of Brooks Bros short-wings, and I'm fairly certain these are shell. The pics don't quite do it justice, but the ripples on the front are smooth rolls, and there are no creases.

The sole is marked "Brooks Brothers New York", and I think I read somewhere that the "New York" marked soles tend to be older. Any idea on vintage and manufacturer?

These will probably be going up on the exchange or ebay since they're a little short for me. I did find some Hanover Shell PTBs that fit perfectly and have a lovely patina, so I can't complain too much.


----------



## closerlook

^^^unquestionably shell.


----------



## CMDC

Yep. No doubt. Those wouldn't happen to be a very narrow 10.5E would they? Please?


----------



## mcarthur

i would vote for shell!


----------



## teamtc

Hello, fellow ten and a half wide!


----------



## Mr Jones

So, would the Brooks shortwings probably be Aldens? I have some other Brooks Bros shoes that have "England" on the insoles, does the fact that these don't say suggest that they are US made?


----------



## zbix

yup. Definitely Alden for BB.


----------



## closerlook

Mr Jones said:


> So, would the Brooks shortwings probably be Aldens? I have some other Brooks Bros shoes that have "England" on the insoles, does the fact that these don't say suggest that they are US made?


Precisely. There are however some other USA made BB shoes of late, but if you familiarize yourself with the shell cordovan models on the bb site, you will then know all of the Alden makeups they have.

good luck.


----------



## spielerman




----------



## closerlook

calf, my friend.


----------



## CMDC

I'm gonna say shell. The bubbling around the bottom eyelet on the left shoe (pictured on right) suggests shell along w/the creases on the vamp. Wish they'd have used shoe trees though.


----------



## Orgetorix

No way. There are definitely microcreases there. And the way the color is lightened on the toes looks like CG, too.


----------



## CMDC

Yeah, you guys are probably right.


----------



## spielerman

CMDC said:


> Yeah, you guys are probably right.


 thank you. what quick responses.


----------



## mcarthur

i would vote not shell


----------



## Mr Jones

*J&M Crown Aristocraft Tassel Loafers*

Found more shells today. I seem to have pretty good luck with spotting cordovan, though this could possibly be cross posted in the Thrift Store Blues thread.

These have no visible markings inside or out (except a very faint 10 1/2 C), but there was another pair of J&M Crown Aristocraft Tassel Loafers in the same size on the same shelf. I'm 99% sure these are shell.

The blues part comes in regard to the insides of these shoes. The insoles and the linings are seriously cracked. Would J&M recrafting service include those kind of repairs?


----------



## eagle2250

^^
I am not aware of any recrafting services that will replace a shoes lining. Although I have had torn heel cups replaced/repaired. Indeed, the condition of the lining in my 28 year old shell cordovan Leeds is the reason AE advised me on the last recrafting, that the shoes would not be candidates for future recraftings. I rather wish that someone could suggest a shoe repair that could replace a shoe's lining!


----------



## spielerman

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> I am not aware of any recrafting services that will replace a shoes lining. Although I have had torn heel cups replaced/repaired. Indeed, the condition of the lining in my 28 year old shell cordovan Leeds is the reason AE advised me on the last recrafting, that the shoes would not be candidates for future recraftings. I rather wish that someone could suggest a shoe repair that could replace a shoe's lining!


Would suggest calling NuShoe (www.nushoe.com)... I know in their service they provide the following:

As accessories we add aromatic cedar shoetrees, new shoe laces, _*a replaceable deerskin sockliner*_, flannel travel shoe bag, and finally a Kiwi™ wax polish tin in your shoe color for polishing your NuCraft at home.

I wonder how much that sockliner could/would help?


----------



## rabidawg

spielerman said:


> Would suggest calling NuShoe (www.nushoe.com)... I know in their service they provide the following:
> 
> As accessories we add aromatic cedar shoetrees, new shoe laces, _*a replaceable deerskin sockliner*_, flannel travel shoe bag, and finally a Kiwi™ wax polish tin in your shoe color for polishing your NuCraft at home.
> 
> I wonder how much that sockliner could/would help?


I'm pretty sure that's just a removable insole.


----------



## mcarthur

i recommend that you call or pm our member nick at bnelson


----------



## The Deacon

*The vaunted, elusive, grail-like "Cole Haan Handmade Shell Cordovan"?*

Shell or not?


----------



## rabidawg

The Deacon said:


> Shell or not?


No. I handled a pair of these recently. The leather is heavily corrected and plasticky. The spaded sole is all they have going for them.


----------



## Orgetorix

Don't mistake them for the J&M Handmade line, which retailed for north of $1K and are the finest shoes made in the US since the '30s or '40s, at least. I've never seen a pair of the J&M Handmades in shell, but they may have existed.


----------



## DFPyne




----------



## joenobody0

DFPyne said:


>


The bad picture makes it hard to tell but it looks like shell to me. I wouldn't pay shell money based on that picture though.


----------



## CMDC

^I agree. I'd like to get a closer look at those creases. The eyelets lead me to lean yes though I wouldnt' bet money on it.


----------



## Pentheos

^ I say shell. The color of the leather is mottled and uneven, and my Florsheim shell LWB look exactly the same.


----------



## The Deacon

Shell undoubtedly, to mine eyes. Look at the puffy eyelets and that wax caked multi hued crease. Like so many flo shells I've owned,worn, or sold. I'm going to wear mine of this vintage tomorrow!


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The picture isn't that good, but I vote shell: the darker spots lead me to that conclusion.


----------



## AHS

Hi all,

May I suggest a slight variation on the game? 

Who made these shells? Unfortunately, the manufacturer name has rubbed off. In addition to the size (11C), inside model # reads 22656 or maybe 22356. I looked at the shell hunter's guide but could not make a match.

Any assistance would be appreciated. I have a similar pair of Alden for Brooks shell so I plan to put these on the thrift exchange or on eBay. 

With thanks, AHS


----------



## Orgetorix

These had me fooled. Had I just the picture of the uppers, I'd have thought shell for sure, and I knew AE made this model in shell at one point. But the all-rubber heel gave me pause, as AE shells have always had combo heels. I asked the seller for the model number inside, and that confirmed it - burgundy polished cobbler.


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mr.v

*what do you think?*

















they're for sale on ebay. not mine, but i wonder... are they shell?


----------



## AlanC

I think yes, shell.


----------



## mcarthur

i would vote no


----------



## joenobody0

I'm torn. The eyelets say "yes", the crease on the left shoe (right in the picture) in the bottom photo says "no".


----------



## Orgetorix

^ I agree, and the color variation says "no" to me as well.


----------



## joenobody0

Orgetorix said:


> ^ I agree, and the color variation says "no" to me as well.


Some of the corrected leather shoes can be really hard to tell.


----------



## mr.v

joenobody0 said:


> I'm torn. The eyelets say "yes", the crease on the left shoe (right in the picture) in the bottom photo says "no".


my thoughts exactly, i was very glad they're not my size, or i would have gambled and bought them. and maybe lost.


----------



## AlanC

I think no.


----------



## M Go Crimson

Supposedly Alden LHS w/ 8C5 062 0 684 inside the shoe


----------



## brantley11

^Those are not LHS, they are full strap and I vote no on being shell.


----------



## firedancer

^yep. Full straps. And I say shell. Just look up the number in shoemart. I would do it but I'm on my phone.


----------



## firedancer

Never mind. I just looked at my #8 full straps and 684 is indeed shell


----------



## M Go Crimson

Thanks guys


----------



## hookem12387

Not a shell or not question, but a "worth it or not" question. Thoughts? They look pretty dinged up, but they're potentially so cheap that restoration could still leave me ahead...maybe.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

The cracking worries me, especially when it's mentioned in the listing like that. And that's one thing you can't fix.

Other than that though they don't seem beyond a restoration, $100 shipped is a high price to pay for gamble like that though.


----------



## hookem12387

Ya, I'd want to offer much lower. There are some other 10.5d florsheim shells for not a ton more that are probably better. 

Does anyone know if restoration will replace the top leather ring where the foot actually slides in? I've no idea what to call that, but it's leather instead of shell and seems cracked on a lot of these shoes


----------



## zbix

hookem12387 said:


> Ya, I'd want to offer much lower. There are some other 10.5d florsheim shells for not a ton more that are probably better.
> 
> Does anyone know if restoration will replace the top leather ring where the foot actually slides in? I've no idea what to call that, but it's leather instead of shell and seems cracked on a lot of these shoes


I don't think there's really any way to replace that. It's more sewn in at the edge where the uppers and lining meet. You're right though, I've noticed that a lot of vintage Florsheims have that cracking on that patch of leather more so than the upper even.


----------



## Orgetorix

Those look dry and thirsty. I'd avoid them. I've had two similar pairs crack at the sides of the forefoot creases after just a few wearings.


----------



## frosejr

hookem12387 said:


> Ya, I'd want to offer much lower.


Like half of what he wants. However, the seller is a good one. Knows high-end stuff.


----------



## GMMcL

Hi, all. I was referred over here by a guy at SF. I'm trying to determine if these shoes are Shell. Church's Custom Grade, 8.5D. (Too small for me, so I'm trying to be sure I describe them accurately when I sell). I know the creases look a bit deep for shell, but the section where the laces portion meets the shoe are so big and beefy, that it's giving me pause. If closeup pics would be helpful (photography is not my strong suit), please let me know.































Thanks in advance.


----------



## jwooten

I think those are calf. Nice shoes none the less.


----------



## hookem12387

What say ye, the seller believes they may be shell, but he's not sure. I'm voting not, but am NOT an expert

Third pair from this thread: https://www.styleforum.net/t/285823/florsheim-royal-imperial-shell-longwings-nos-loafers-longwings#post_5183204


----------



## Orgetorix

Not shell, Hook.


----------



## CMDC

^ I agree. Not shell. The creasing's all wrong.


----------



## hookem12387

That's exactly what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation


----------



## Puritan

This post inspired me to look around.

What about these?


----------



## CMDC

^I'm willing to be proven wrong but I say no on those also. They appear to be pebble grained and I've never seen pebble grained shell before. The pictures aren't great but on a few the creasing looks wrong also. The description says V cleat which they obviously aren't, unless they've been re-heeled--which doesn't mean they aren't shell but speaks to the seller's inability to correctly describe the item. Too many red flags for me to pull the trigger on 'em.


----------



## zbix

CMDC said:


> ^I'm willing to be proven wrong but I say no on those also. They appear to be pebble grained and I've never seen pebble grained shell before. The pictures aren't great but on a few the creasing looks wrong also. The description says V cleat which they obviously aren't, unless they've been re-heeled--which doesn't mean they aren't shell but speaks to the seller's inability to correctly describe the item. Too many red flags for me to pull the trigger on 'em.


Yeah. Not shell.

There are a few Alden makeups that had pebble shell... but they're very rare.


----------



## red sweatpants

Imperial V-cleats - 92812

https://i.imgur.com/koZDJ.jpg


----------



## CMDC

That number doesn't show up in the Hunter's Guide but I'm intrigued by them. Around the eyelets there seems to be puffing. Beautiful gunboats either way.

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...umbers/page3&highlight=shell+cordovan+numbers


----------



## frosejr

red sweatpants said:


> Imperial V-cleats - 92812
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/koZDJ.jpg


I vote not shell...but they are REALLY nice. And it's just a vote, not a certainty in my mind.


----------



## firedancer

I also vote no. The creasing on the right vamp leads me to believe this. The tongues don't look like most imperial shells either. They almost always have a thick puffy thing going on from the laces. 
But, I've been wrong before....


----------



## catside

My vote is no. But great shoes.


----------



## Brianpore

OK...so are these shell...#9147 matched up to "MacNeil: 9097/9147/9187 (#8); 9177 (black); 9007 (Cognac)" on the Hunters Guide, but they don't look it to me...





​


----------



## zightx

Not shell. That is calf creases.


----------



## CMDC

zightx said:


> Not shell. That is calf creases.


Correct. Not shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

Brianpore said:


> OK...so are these shell...#9147 matched up to "MacNeil: 9097/9147/9187 (#8); 9177 (black); 9007 (Cognac)" on the Hunters Guide, but they don't look it to me...


You've come across one of the problems I had when putting together the Hunters Guide. Although there seems to be a general impression that AE "always" used specific model numbers/names consistently, they actually used to shift and change them quite frequently. In the Hunters Guide, if you see several model numbers offered for a specific shoe, it means that at some point in the company's history they used that number for shell, but it doesn't guarantee they didn't recycle the number.


----------



## MacTweed

I just popped into this thread for the first time. I must say, it is fun guessing. Should keep me busy for a while (instead of mowing the lawn)


----------



## Tilton

I'm terrible at this...


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Corrected grain. It's nothing about the pictures, but that particular level of Florsheim (indicated by the sole and heel stamps) is never or almost never shell.


----------



## leisureclass

^^ Even if they're not shell, I would recommend those if the price is right. I have basically exactly the same thing and they're wonderful.


----------



## Tilton

Is $45 right? They're NOS if the seller is to be believed (I don't know if they still make them or not, but at least the "N" is true).


----------



## leisureclass

I think I got mine for 30 w/ shipping if I remember right, but mine weren't NOS. I'm no expert, but that seems decent. They're just very comfortable and versatile, I'm wearing mine today in fact.


----------



## frosejr

Your thoughts on these?


----------



## Pentheos

^^^

Tough call. Leather looks thick enough, but the stitching looks too fine and the surface appearance lacks the depth of shell. 75% no.l


----------



## mr.v

I say shell


----------



## Topsider

They look like corrected grain. Not shell.


----------



## mcarthur

not shell


----------



## everett464

.....


----------



## DFPyne




----------



## CMDC

I don't think so. That big crease on the right shoe seems to have microcreasing. Did you check the model number?


----------



## ArtVandalay

I'm going to go with shell. Beat up shell, but shell.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

shell


----------



## frosejr

^^I say shell


----------



## Tilton

99.1% sure these are shell.


----------



## DFPyne

The model number confirmed it was shell. Speaking of which I have a nearly identical pair in 8.5D that were too big for me if anybody is interested.



CMDC said:


> I don't think so. That big crease on the right shoe seems to have microcreasing. Did you check the model number?


----------



## Topsider

Tilton said:


> 99.1% sure these are shell.


What accounts for the 0.9% doubt?


----------



## ArtVandalay

Those pennies are 150-200% shell.


----------



## Tilton

Topsider said:


> What accounts for the 0.9% doubt?


Ignorance = 0.3%
Foolishness = 0.1%
Inexperience = 0.5%


----------



## AlanC

^those are the shell PRL Darlton loafers, very much shell. I wore mine this evening. Fantastic shoes.


----------



## Tilton

Ebay ad says shell, my untrained eye says no.


----------



## Pentheos

^^^

No way.


----------



## Tilton

Super creasy looking and wrong shine. Buyers beware!


----------



## Orgetorix

Very, very, very not shell.


----------



## Youthful Repp-robate

Tilton said:


> Super creasy looking and wrong shine. Buyers beware!


Even if those were shell, you'd have to be a lunatic to buy a pair of shoes that broken in by somebody else.


----------



## mcarthur

Pentheos said:


> ^^^
> 
> No way.


i second


----------



## frosejr

^^Not only NOT shell, not even close.


----------



## trgolf

Restored by Alden???


----------



## firedancer

I'm gonna take a gamble on them.


----------



## catside

Not in good shape, not shell. You can do better on sale here if you're patient.

*Alden for Brooks Bros. calfskin tassel loafers, Model # 771.*


----------



## Tilton

I can't even fit those shoes, I just saw "genuine shell" and said "no way"


----------



## nonartful dodger

These seem to be very dearly priced in regards to their condition even if they were shell. I would be interested in knowing what the declined offers were. As for being shell, I would say no since swb120 had offered a pair of Alden for BB #771 in 2009 (13D Peal & Brooks Bros. shell cordovan and calfskin oxford thread) and listed them as calfskin.


----------



## EngProf

Can't resist:

*ALDEN Schuhe Gr.10 C/E (44 EUR) Braun *NEU* Shell-Cordovan Rahmengenäht
*


----------



## Orgetorix

^ Germans have a funny definition of shell. Or a whole new way of finishing it!


----------



## Topsider

Orgetorix said:


> ^ Germans have a funny definition of shell. Or a whole new way of finishing it!


Rough side out, I'd say.


----------



## alexlee1906

Hi can someone tell if it is shell cordovan or not? Thanks.


----------



## conductor

I'd say shell


----------



## brantley11

^Definitely shell. Nice find.


----------



## frosejr

^^definitely shell


----------



## alexlee1906

Thanks for your confirmation.:icon_hailthee:


----------



## Cardinals5

Bought these AE Kenwoods on the cheap assuming they were shell (AE's shell soles, lined, right glow), but I'm not positive and the distinctive ripples aren't clear on the vamp - what says the gallery? NB: Seller was too busy to send me the model number.


----------



## firedancer

Those look like shell to me Cards.


----------



## Topsider

I would say yes.


----------



## eagle2250

I'll take a chance and guess shell, based on the puffiness of the leather around the die-cut penny slot and around much of the stitching.


----------



## tonylumpkin

Shell. And a great looking, classic beef roll penny loafer, in my opinion.


----------



## Bucksfan

Agree with above. Harder to tell before they get vmp rolls, but the puffiness looks right, in addition to the right soles.


----------



## mcarthur

i vote "not Shell"


----------



## mr.v

I say shell


----------



## leisureclass

Thoughts?


----------



## Bucksfan

I voted yes with my wallet, so we will see in a few days.


----------



## Bucksfan

leisureclass said:


> View attachment 4155
> 
> 
> Thoughts?


Tough to tell based on that pic... Are others available?


----------



## Cardinals5

Bucksfan said:


> I voted yes with my wallet, so we will see in a few days.


Absolutely no doubt those are shell - nice find, shell Sanfords are pretty rare.


----------



## leisureclass

Bucksfan said:


> Tough to tell based on that pic... Are others available?


There's that one and partial shot of the old school Alden logo that cuts out the model numbers! (And that's it) I'm new to this game, guess I could always ask the seller. Thanks.


----------



## Bucksfan

Cardinals5 said:


> Absolutely no doubt those are shell - nice find, shell Sanfords are pretty rare.


Thank you for the validation - I thought the same, but the seller referred to the fact that the original rubber heels had been replaced with leather/rubber combo heels, and that the calf uppers were in good condition. I thought the pics screamed shell, so I figured I'd wager the 85 bucks.


----------



## Bucksfan

leisureclass said:


> There's that one and partial shot of the old school Alden logo that cuts out the model numbers! (And that's it) I'm new to this game, guess I could always ask the seller. Thanks.


Yeah, i'd ask. If only that pic is available, I'd say calf. It could be shell with wax buildup in the creases though.


----------



## The Deacon

shell without a doubt, I had an identical pair


----------



## EngProf

Happily, the German guy just posted yet another pair of suede shoes on ebay. I don't know why I get such a kick out of this.


----------



## Cardinals5

We were correct, these are shell, and have very little wear - I'm more than pleased for my $60



Cardinals5 said:


>


----------



## firedancer

^great score cards


----------



## catside

Love this thread! AEs are shell and a steal IMHO.


----------



## Bucksfan

Cardinals5 said:


> Absolutely no doubt those are shell - nice find, shell Sanfords are pretty rare.


Received these today and they are indeed shell. In fact, they are the softest, most comfortable shell i have, and that's 14 pair now.

I believe they are the more reddish shell that AE used a number of years ago. Very nice condition, though someone used large quantities of wax on them. I was able to get it most of the way off with saphir, a brush and an hour, but I think I have a few more brushing sessions ahead of me.


----------



## mcarthur

Bucksfan said:


> Received these today and they are indeed shell. In fact, they are the softest, most comfortable shell i have, and that's 14 pair now.
> 
> I believe they are the more reddish shell that AE used a number of years ago. Very nice condition, though someone used large quantities of wax on them. I was able to get it most of the way off with saphir, a brush and an hour, but I think I have a few more brushing sessions ahead of me.


nephew,
keep brushing!


----------



## Tilton

poor quality photos are the bane of my ebay thrifting


----------



## Tilton

And also (different shoes)


----------



## firedancer

^ No and No. Were you asking?


----------



## Cardinals5

firedancer said:


> ^ No and No.
> 
> 
> 
> this is right - both are corrected grain.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tilton

I was. I didn't think they were, but with a lack of creasing and generally being bad at this, I sought advice.


----------



## NotoriousMarquis

*Can we collectively do somehing about this?*

These seem more in line with CG than shell, if you look carefully. But 300??


----------



## Cordovanman

Shell Cordovan is absolutely the best way to go!


----------



## Orgetorix

NotoriousMarquis said:


> These seem more in line with CG than shell, if you look carefully. But 300??


Those are definitely CG, and moreover, even shell in that condition wouldn't fetch his asking price.


----------



## 32rollandrock

Thrifted these today. Can't seem to find the Hunter's Guide, so what say-eth the group? The eyelets give me the most pause:


----------



## mr.v

The creases look like shell


----------



## Cardinals5

No question, 32, those are shell - great find!


----------



## 32rollandrock

Wow! I was really hoping you'd weigh in, because there is no greater expert than yourself. Unfortunately, I found them just after getting off the phone with my mechanic, who informed me that repairs to my Buick total $500, so the joy is qualified. But thanks.



Cardinals5 said:


> No question, 32, those are shell - great find!


----------



## Cardinals5

32rollandrock said:


> Unfortunately, I found them just after getting off the phone with my mechanic, who informed me that repairs to my Buick total $500, so the joy is qualified. But thanks.


Too many trips to the thrift stores


----------



## mcarthur

32rollandrock said:


> Thrifted these today. Can't seem to find the Hunter's Guide, so what say-eth the group? The eyelets give me the most pause:


9901=black shell ptb


----------



## 32rollandrock

^^
Thanks, Uncle. No better authorities than you and Cards.


----------



## Bandit44

Great find!


----------



## mcarthur

32rollandrock said:


> ^^
> Thanks, Uncle. No better authorities than you and Cards.


recommendation-change laces to wax laces and use the procedure and your ptb will look great


----------



## Ole Hickory

Shell Cordovan


----------



## Acme

I've been wanting to play this game for some time.

I thrifted these a couple of days ago:



















What do you think?


----------



## catside

Needs a good cleaning to take away extra polish and lots of brushing. I vote shell.


----------



## Orgetorix

Yes. Shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

Just bought these through a BIN. They're C&J for RL, but are they shell?


----------



## mr.v

Yes, shell


----------



## conductor

I'd say yep on those, Cards.


----------



## catside

I can't resist my favorite thread sleeping so long.
I have been sleeping on these for a while, now. i do have an idea, still.
One wonders: *shell or not shell ?

This from now-defunct St Louis shoe factory:

*1956 ad.*

https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/51tlj8pqylss500.jpg/

*Shoes, new of course  Not my size naturally :-(*

GAME ON!

*


----------



## Bandit44

I'd guess shell, but its hard to tell on NOS when there's been no creasing. Haven't heard of the brand before, but with its St. Louis pedigree, I'd wager that International Shoe Corp. is the parent company.


----------



## catside

I don't know if same as ^ but this is Hamilton Brown Shoe Company bankrupted and bought by Craddock Terry Shoe company of Charlottesville, Virgina . Factory burned 76. Craddock and Terry bankrupted 80ies.


----------



## conductor

catside,

The shoes strike me as NOT shell. Let me know how this plays out after they get a few creases.


----------



## catside

Too small at 8 D. Probably will sell to Japan on the bay. I do know the answer but will wait Cards, orgetorix, rabidawg, our communal uncle etc to comment first. No game otherwise :devil:


----------



## Cardinals5

I'd guess 'not shell,' but I do like American Gentleman shoes. I've handled 5-6 examples and they've always been above average quality. They used to make a pebble-grain venetian that I've been looking for.


----------



## Orgetorix

Hard call. The brogue holes say shell to me, but the eyelets don't.


----------



## catside

catside said:


> I can't resist my favorite thread sleeping so long.
> I have been sleeping on these for a while, now. i do have an idea, still.
> One wonders: *shell or not shell ?
> 
> This from now-defunct St Louis shoe factory:
> **
> 
> GAME ON!
> 
> *


Since we are playing, let me up the ante. Here is another one, not in my possession, from the same brand, based on insole a much later model.

https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/525/kgrhqvhjceelkw2hhbpr1m8.jpg/


----------



## mr.v

Not shell on the long wings. The tassels are clearly confusing.


----------



## conductor

I'll say C.G. on the tassels


----------



## catside

Thanks for playing folks. Tassel loafers are Horween shell cordovan, marked so in the sole. Longwings are to the best of my knowledge / research are not, but still very hard to tell before it creased as some of you suggested. The purchaser may end up pleasantly surprised, who knows.


----------



## Tilton

Just a point of fact, but Craddock Terry was in Lynchburg, not Charlottesville. It was once the fifth largest shoe manufacturer in the world. The factory is now a pretty cool hotel.


----------



## danielm

Next round of Shell or No Shell:


----------



## catside

^^re: Craddock : Correct, it says right on the ad. Sorry.

^I say shell.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

catside said:


> I can't resist my favorite thread sleeping so long.
> I have been sleeping on these for a while, now. i do have an idea, still.
> One wonders: *shell or not shell ?
> 
> This from now-defunct St Louis shoe factory:
> 
> *1956 ad.*
> 
> https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/51tlj8pqylss500.jpg/
> 
> *Shoes, new of course  Not my size naturally :-(*
> 
> GAME ON!
> 
> *


You'll probably think I'm nuts, but brush the shoes for a while and smell them. The smell of shell is quite distinct, you may get some on older shoes.


----------



## catside

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> You'll probably think I'm nuts, but brush the shoes for a while and smell them. The smell of shell is quite distinct, you may get some on older shoes.


That is funny! Funnier yet, I did it . Verdict the smell may be shell! Just when I decided they are not, based on old newspaper ads. On the other hand the comparison AE shell shoe regularly get venetian creamed. And that has a distinct smell. Regardless, on a good brush they both smelled similar. 
Verdict: We will not know unless the person who gets them submit pics after wearing them for a while.


----------



## 32rollandrock

These arrived in the mail today, and to say I'm ecstatic is an understatement. I do not, however, know the maker. I'm guessing--hoping- Alden, but welcome verdicts from those more knowledgeable than myself. Here goes:


----------



## CMDC

No idea as to the maker but those are beautiful. I really want some whiskey shell.


----------



## conductor

32 - God, I hate you. Not really, just my envy showing through. Enjoy those shoes!


----------



## spielerman

+ 32 lucky!... my size too, oh how I long for the whiskey!

How about these Aldens for J. Crew?


----------



## mr.v

32, those shells look like mason shoe company. Nice pick up


----------



## Bandit44

32, with the rounded toe box, I'd guess Alden, but since they are vintage, its anybody's guess. Congratulations!


----------



## DFPyne

This is not as much Shell or No Shell as it is what color shell. Here are two pairs of Florsheim Longwings, both marked 93605 which according to Cards Shell Hunters Guide are #8. However it is clear that they are two separate colors. Below are pictures of the two Longwings and a picture next to my Brooks for Alden #8 LHS just for reference.

The lighter pair seems almost a Whiskey color. Has anyone ever heard of a Florsheim Whiskey Longwing, especially marked with 93605. The color of darker pair doesn't seem quite right either. Any idea what is going on here?


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ I think just variation in color batches (suggested by the consistency in color on the entire shoe) and then long-term exposure to light (or not). The longwings shown by 32r'n'r were also originally burgundy, but faded/mellowed over time.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays

1) buy up a bunch of alden #8 longwings
2) leave in the sun
3) ?????
4) profit


----------



## zbix

I wouldn't call that color whiskey so much as a ravello/brown. Great color though. But either way, I think it's just a mild #8. There seems to be a large variation in the traditional #8 that's been offered over the years and then how they age. I have a pair of hanover ptb that exhibit a more pink/red tone of the #8 spectrum than the customary eggplant #8 that we see today.

As for the whiskey Florsheim, I actually have a pair. I think its a custom order though. It's not the exact whiskey color coming out of horween today. It has a more burnt orange tint to it. I can't recall the model number, but I know that it's not one of the standard Florsheim #8 model numbers. I'll take some pictures later when I get home.



DFPyne said:


> The lighter pair seems almost a Whiskey color. Has anyone ever heard of a Florsheim Whiskey Longwing, especially marked with 93605. The color of darker pair doesn't seem quite right either. Any idea what is going on here?


----------



## Bandit44

I've never seen a pair of Florsheim shell that are dark like Alden's #8. The Burgandy is lighter with more red, less purple... what I call Oxblood.


----------



## zbix

*Whiskey Shell Cordovan*

Here's a pic comparing Alden's whiskey on the left and the vintage Florsheim shade I was talking about on the right. The model number on the inside of the Florsheim is 1000.


----------



## catside

^Since you have two, I'll gladly take one of them!!


----------



## CMDC

What say ye?


----------



## catside

Too small a pic. I vote shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ I'm almost 100% those Nettletons are shell


----------



## Acme

Here's the next round, gentlemen:


----------



## mr.v

Acme, that's shell


----------



## Acme

mr.v said:


> Acme, that's shell


Thank you, sir!


----------



## Wales

mr.v said:


> Acme, that's shell


Without a doubt.


----------



## catside

Shell.


----------



## frosejr

Acme's shoes = shell


----------



## redcorals

I havent come across grain shell in person but what do you guys think, can this be it or is it the extended wax treated other grain which brings out this effect.

https://i.imgur.com/wakyT.jpg


----------



## catside

^ I doubt this one. Not shell IMO.


----------



## zbix

redcorals said:


> I havent come across grain shell in person but what do you guys think, can this be it or is it the extended wax treated other grain which brings out this effect.
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/wakyT.jpg


Those are Allen Edmonds Rough MacNeil's. They were offered the past couple of years, but if I recall a few members weren't thrilled by them in person. But yeah, as catside said, definitely not shell.


----------



## Typhoid_Jones

Hey Guys!

A friend of mine purchased these on eBay and wanted my opinion of the brand and whether or not they are actually made of shell cordovan or not. I am unfamiliar with the brand and personally think that they are not shell because the leather looks too plastic-y, but I figured that some of you on here might know better:



Any insight would be helpful. Thanks!


----------



## joeyzaza

I vote shell. Especially based upon the photos the bottom row. Based upon the sole wear, I would expect different creasing if they were calf.



Typhoid_Jones said:


> Hey Guys!
> 
> A friend of mine purchased these on eBay and wanted my opinion of the brand and whether or not they are actually made of shell cordovan or not. I am unfamiliar with the brand and personally think that they are not shell because the leather looks too plastic-y, but I figured that some of you on here might know better:
> 
> Any insight would be helpful. Thanks!


----------



## Bandit44

I vote not shell because the eyelets lack any puffiness. I know shell doesn't always puff up, but vintage shoes tend to more often than not.


----------



## catside

On the left shoe there is a crease which is about to develop into a non-shell crease I think. Eyelets say not shell either. Non leather soles are suspect. On the first look though I was confused. I guardedly say not shell.


----------



## frosejr

I doubt they are shell. I have rarely seen off-brands in shell. I've never seen any Westerfields before, whether on the exchange, in the wild, or on ebay. The biggest point for me, as catside mentioned, is non-leather soles. If that's a composite sole as it looks to be, no way they're shell.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The second last that shows a _white_ crease. Only shell crease white.

Whether shell or not, they're nice shoes.


----------



## catside

Corfam creases like that too but is usually marked Corfam.


----------



## Typhoid_Jones

I wanted to thank you all for your help re: my friend's shoes. Both here and on the Official Thrift Store Bragging Thread over at SF, the general consensus seems to be that the shoes are some sort of treated calfskin or possibly man-made (Corfam?), but DEFINITELY not shell. I appreciate all the helpful insights and comments. Here's to you guys! :icon_hailthee:


----------



## dkoernert

BB PTB's. I am pretty sure they are shell, and pretty sure they are Alden's, but would like some confirmation. (I can try to take better photos if needed)


----------



## mr.v

Yes, Alden for bb shell.


----------



## keithavery

Bought these off ebay. They are old(very dusty inside when I got them) Johnston and Murphy Crown Aristocrats, heavy. The question is shell or no shell?


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Calf


----------



## Pentheos

Calf.


----------



## greekgeek

catside said:


> Corfam creases like that too but is usually marked Corfam.


I passed on these shoes, everything about them looks synthetic all around. The seller should know better, they are also on SF for years.


----------



## RandyP

That last one, definitely calf.


----------



## Acme

RandyP said:


> That last one, definitely calf.


I vote Calf as well. Welcome to the forums, RandyP.


----------



## catside

I recently found a Barrry shell and while searching for the maker found a picture with similar soles. Shell or no shell?

https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/kgrhqjq4eotsflyebpf30ji.jpg/


----------



## CMDC

Without a closer view of those creases, look like shell to me.


----------



## salgy

picked up on the bay for $0.99! i wanted them just for casual wear... they arrived today & i am now wondering if they're shell or not... i have never owned or seen shell, but after handling dozens of calf shoes, these just feel different... curious what the consensus was


----------



## danielm

Shell I believe. 8284 model is shell according to my records. Well done!


----------



## Hardiw1

^ Interested to know what records you have.

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?110401-A-Hunter-s-Guide-Shell-Model-Numbers

AE Polo 8284 = shell


----------



## danielm

Started with the shell hunter guide, then started expanding it based on shoes found here, things I've come across on my own, and watching shell cordovan listings on eBay. I keep that, a modified version of Styleforum's hierarchical suit list, the PutThisOn eBay shoe list, and my own purchases/sales records on Microsoft Skydrive so I can access them from my phone if there's anything I need to identify or determine a value for.


----------



## catside

Posted these on eBay thread, nobody bid for whatever reason. They arrived and turns out definite shell. A little narrow for me at 10B unfortunately.



catside said:


> I recently found a Barrry shell and while searching for the maker found a picture with similar soles. Shell or no shell?
> 
> https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/kgrhqjq4eotsflyebpf30ji.jpg/


----------



## n0rm

Not sure if these are:


----------



## conductor

Not shell, IMO


----------



## phyrpowr

n0rm said:


> Not sure if these are:


I'd say no, looks like some microcreasing on the left shoe. Very lightly worn corrected grain is my take


----------



## catside

Not shell.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Not shell at all.


----------



## salgy

phyrpowr said:


> I'd say no, looks like some microcreasing on the left shoe.


excuse the ignorance... new to shell... so shell, under no circumstances, will have any microcreasing found on calf? i just received a pair of AE Sheltons, off ebay, and they have a lot of shell characteristics, the leather feels "fuller" almost puffy... same puffiness around the eyelets, but there is microcreasing... i can post pictures later, but the model number is 8201... thoughts?


----------



## firedancer

^Salgy, 
You are correct. Shell doesn't micro crease. It creases but tends to do so in waves or larger creases. 

With AE some of the other things you can look for are the combination heel and JR soles. 

Another give away is the white film you will see develop on shell. This goes away with brushing.


----------



## Orgetorix

^ Quite true, but older shell that has been over-polished will sometimes have old polish built up in the creases, which when it dries out and cracks can _look_ like micro-creasing.


----------



## n0rm

Shoes have never been worn so there won't be any creasing. Still not knowledgeable enough to make a determination by looking at the eyelets.


----------



## Orgetorix

Something says calf to me, but that's a tough one.


----------



## Bandit44

^ I'd ask for a picture of the model # on the inside and check it against the Cardinal's indexed listings.


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Based on the absence of a bit of tell-tale puckering left behind when lacing eyelets and broughing designs on shoes are punched, I am inclined to conclude the long wings pictured in post #1012 are calf, rather than shell cordovan.


----------



## tonylumpkin

It's a tough call given the pics we have work with, but I'm going with shell on these.


----------



## n0rm

@bandit: they are Cordwainer Wrights, I just checked the shell #'s thread and there is no mention anywhere (unless I missed it)

If they were my size and the price was right, I would've been willing to take chance on them. Seller says they are shell,but AFAIK Cordwainer usually stamps Genuine Shell Cordovan on the sole and these don't have them.

The auction in case anyone is interested:


----------



## Aussie

*Shell or Not Shell?*

Bought on eBay $79 I can't decide.. The color (#8?) says shell - no micro creases despite enough wear to require a new sole and heals..


----------



## firedancer

I say shell ^


----------



## greekgeek

n0rm said:


> Shoes have never been worn so there won't be any creasing. Still not knowledgeable enough to make a determination by looking at the eyelets.


Tough call but I would err on the side of them being shell.


----------



## Aussie

*Florsheim Shortwing Balmorals -- Are they shell?*

First pair of Florsheim shortwing balmorals that I have seen that might be shell! I see them in calf all the time -- but never in shell! I saw these on eBay for $79 so I snapped them up.

-No microcreases -- despite enough wear to be re-soled & re-heeled.
-The color and look of the leather also says Shell!

I'm not 100% sure they are shell -- what do you think?


----------



## Aussie

More photos:


----------



## Aussie

..and more photos:


----------



## phyrpowr

Aussie said:


> First pair of Florsheim shortwing balmorals that I have seen that might be shell! I see them in calf all the time -- but never in shell! I saw these on eBay for $79 so I snapped them up.
> 
> -No microcreases -- despite enough wear to be re-soled & re-heeled.
> -The color and look of the leather also says Shell!
> 
> I'm not 100% sure they are shell -- what do you think?
> 
> View attachment 5036
> View attachment 5037


Pix a bit small but that looks like shell to me, "rumpled" as opposed to creased


----------



## Aussie

phyrpowr said:


> Pix a bit small but that looks like shell to me, "rumpled" as opposed to creased


I agree -- I have a few vintage Florsheim longwings in #8 shell.. But I have never seen Florsheim shortwings in shell! So I'm sceptical.. but the more I look -- the more convinced I become..

Here is a link to the listing:


----------



## mr.v

You scored a nice pair of shells Aussie. Nicely done


----------



## mcarthur

Aussie said:


> ..and more photos:
> 
> View attachment 5040
> View attachment 5041


not shell


----------



## CaptainAddy

Not shell.


----------



## greekgeek

Florsheim Balmoral certainly exists in Shell Cordovan, I just sold a new old stock pair recently. Here is the model number information.

https://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t290/greekgeeks/P1070678.jpg


----------



## Aussie

mcarthur said:


> not shell





CaptainAddy said:


> Not shell.


Gentlemen - please elaborate. Why do you say nay!?

I've got a few vintage longwings in shell - they look quite convincing! The only reason I'm even ask is that I have never seen Shell Balmorals from Florsheim!

So far 3 yes / 2 no.. Ill be surprised if they are not shell! The whole bottom end has been resoled / rehealed.. Leather on the vamp looks rumpled - no micro creases.


----------



## Aussie

greekgeek said:


> Florsheim Balmoral certainly exists in Shell Cordovan, I just sold a new old stock pair recently. Here is the model number information.
> 
> https://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t290/greekgeeks/P1070678.jpg


Ah ha! So they DO exist! Makes me even
more optimistic that they are shell!

They used so many different model numbers over the years! It's hard to say based on model number - more of a rule-in than a rule out..

They are 6 eyelet, the vamp has quite a bit of wear. They are recently completely resoled / rehealed.. I've got a similar pair in burgundy calf - still on thier original soles; fine creases all over.. These look rumpled and the eyelets look puffy (like all of my other shell shoes) - and the pantina - goes from oxblood to almost black.. If they are not shell I'll be miffed!

What do you think GeekGeek? Shell or not shell!?


----------



## Eric W S

They are not shell.


----------



## Aussie

Eric W S said:


> They are not shell.


Please elaborate - do you think they are CG or Calf!?


----------



## Aussie

mr.v said:


> You scored a nice pair of shells Aussie. Nicely done


Yes - I've studied the photos closely today; they are shell without a doubt!

I can't find a single inconsistency / non-shell deal breaker.. None of the nay Sayers have put forward a case for thier verdict. 

I've got a nice pair of vintage Florsheim captoes that look like shell, even next to my PTB in #8 you can't tell them apart. But that's because the captoes are NOS CG they are not creased yet. Another pair of burgundy medalian toes with 25% wear and they have fine creases everywhere!

These short wings have been worn allot! So much that they wore out the soles and heels, then had them repaired! The heals are Vibram.. That's allot of wear - yet the vamp is just rumpled with no fine creases at all!

Gotta be shell cordovan - any other leather would have numerous fine creases..


----------



## greekgeek

Aussie said:


> Ah ha! So they DO exist! Makes me even
> more optimistic that they are shell!
> 
> They used so many different model numbers over the years! It's hard to say based on model number - more of a rule-in than a rule out..
> 
> They are 6 eyelet, the vamp has quite a bit of wear. They are recently completely resoled / rehealed.. I've got a similar pair in burgundy calf - still on thier original soles; fine creases all over.. These look rumpled and the eyelets look puffy (like all of my other shell shoes) - and the pantina - goes from oxblood to almost black.. If they are not shell I'll be miffed!
> 
> What do you think GeekGeek? Shell or not shell!?


They look like shell to me. bear in mind the pair I posted the model number of is an older pair that predated the "imperial" line marketing, I agree that other model numbers could also be indicative of shell.


----------



## Eric W S

Aussie said:


> Yes - I've studied the photos closely today; they are shell without a doubt!
> 
> I can't find a single inconsistency / non-shell deal breaker.. None of the nay Sayers have put forward a case for thier verdict.
> 
> I've got a nice pair of vintage Florsheim captoes that look like shell, even next to my PTB in #8 you can't tell them apart. But that's because the captoes are NOS CG they are not creased yet. Another pair of burgundy medalian toes with 25% wear and they have fine creases everywhere!
> 
> These short wings have been worn allot! So much that they wore out the soles and heels, then had them repaired! The heals are Vibram.. That's allot of wear - yet the vamp is just rumpled with no fine creases at all!
> 
> Gotta be shell cordovan - any other leather would have numerous fine creases..


Too funny. Because no one substantiated their opinion, by negative default they have to be shell. They are calf that need to be cleaned, and re-polished with a fine shoe polish like Saphir.

The consistant discoloration on the upper portions of the shoe as compared to the consistent color below the break of the pant is strong evidence that they are polished calf. Shell ages differently and the discoloration would not be so uniform and consistent. They just do not have the look of shell either. The patina on the shoe looks to be the result of years of polish. Further, the lack of creases is not a strong indication for shell. Heavy polish, thicker vintage leather, etc. Many reasons not to trust a phot.

Bought a very similar pair of Nettletons. They were very nice calf gunboats. Not Shell as the seller indicated. I kept them anyway because they were still a very nice vintage gunboat at a great price. They will look even better once B Nelson re-soles them as well.

EwS


----------



## Aussie

greekgeek said:


> They look like shell to me. bear in mind the pair I posted the model number of is an older pair that predated the "imperial" line marketing, I agree that other model numbers could also be indicative of shell.


It's the first pair of Florsheim Balmorals I've ever seen in shell.. I heard they exist but I've never seen a pair in the wild!

I'm convinced they are shell.. There is no way that is CG or Calf.. There are just no fine creases - look @ photo 5 -- you can see where someone got dressed without a shoe horn and mashed the heal repeatedly; still no creases.. just rumpled..


----------



## Aussie

Eric W S said:


> Too funny. Because no one substantiated their opinion, by negative default they have to be shell. They are calf that need to be cleaned, and re-polished with a fine shoe polish like Saphir.
> 
> The consistant discoloration on the upper portions of the shoe as compared to the consistent color below the break of the pant is strong evidence that they are polished calf. Shell ages differently and the discoloration would not be so uniform and consistent. They just do not have the look of shell either. The patina on the shoe looks to be the result of years of polish. Further, the lack of creases is not a strong indication for shell. Heavy polish, thicker vintage leather, etc. Many reasons not to trust a phot.
> 
> Bought a very similar pair of Nettletons. They were very nice calf gunboats. Not Shell as the seller indicated. I kept them anyway because they were still a very nice vintage gunboat at a great price. They will look even better once B Nelson re-soles them as well.
> 
> EwS


There is no default. I can spot shell in my sleep, I've never been wrong as yet. These were NOT marked as shell by the seller. I've never seen Florshiem Balmorals in shell codovan.. They are not common.. They were either rarely made, not durable (like the bluchers) or both..

I have an old pair of LWBs that look exactly like the shoes pictured. Dark burgundy at the trouser break - almost black on the rest of the vamp.

The fact that someone paid for a full resole says allot to me - nobody resoles CG shoes; they are disposable. Also that ammount of wear would show spiderweb creases on the vamp and heal area too. Well worn calf / CG does not rumple..

They are nice shoes anyway - even if the are not shell..


----------



## n0rm

A lot of frauding going on on Ebay:




Thanks to this thread, I'm not going to fall for it. Wish I could say the same for the 2 that have bidded on it.

edit: found another auction with the same model shoe where the creasing is more evident.



@Aussie: got any bigger pics? At 500 x 400 everything looks like shell to me, even pebbled grain :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## Aussie

n0rm said:


> A lot of frauding going on on Ebay:
> 
> Thanks to this thread, I'm not going to fall for it. Wish I could say the same for the 2 that have bidded on it.
> 
> edit: found another auction with the same model shoe where the creasing is more evident.
> 
> @Aussie: got any bigger pics? At 500 x 400 everything looks like shell to me, even pebbled grain :icon_smile_wink:


Neither one of those are shell - not even close! Look at the creases! Some folks think anything burgundy colored is shell cordovan - and, in fairnes to ignorance, it is a color "cordovan brown" - so it could be an honest mistake. Id email the sellers and let them know!

I bought a nice old pair of light brown Florshiem Impetial PTBs c1950ish - the seller called the leather "cashmere calf"!? When I asked him to explain he said he copied it from another listing. They were scotch grain - beautiful pantina - but I had a chuckle about the description.. I think I paid $35 + postage.. Love the shoes!

I'm pretty positive my $79 bet is shell - if not it will be the first time I've guessed wrong! There is a link to the original listing - that is ad big as the photos get. Photo 5 was the clincher for me - the heel has been mashed repeatedly - but no creases at all - just rumpled leather! The overall look just screams shell - it's odd that I've never seen a pair of Florshiem Bals in shell hence my doubts! They look like they were someone's favorite shoes - right down to the recent, well executed resole! They were NOT marked as shell in the listing - I'm trusting my eye!


----------



## Aussie

Here is the original listing for my shoes:


----------



## Orgetorix

Aussie - report back to us when you receive the shoes.


----------



## n0rm

Aussie said:


> Neither one of those are shell - not even close! Look at the creases! Some folks think anything burgundy colored is shell cordovan - and, in fairnes to ignorance, it is a color "cordovan brown" - so it could be an honest mistake. Id email the sellers and let them know!
> 
> I bought a nice old pair of light brown Florshiem Impetial PTBs c1950ish - the seller called the leather "cashmere calf"!? When I asked him to explain he said he copied it from another listing. They were scotch grain - beautiful pantina - but I had a chuckle about the description.. I think I paid $35 + postage.. Love the shoes!
> 
> I'm pretty positive my $79 bet is shell - if not it will be the first time I've guessed wrong! There is a link to the original listing - that is ad big as the photos get. Photo 5 was the clincher for me - the heel has been mashed repeatedly - but no creases at all - just rumpled leather! The overall look just screams shell - it's odd that I've never seen a pair of Florshiem Bals in shell hence my doubts! They look like they were someone's favorite shoes - right down to the recent, well executed resole! They were NOT marked as shell in the listing - I'm trusting my eye!


I did notify the seller, I was told "Thanks for your input"

Like what Orgetorix said, report back when you receive the shoes. All we're doing right now is speculating. If the shoes are shell, well and good, we can add the model number to the database. Win for everyone!


----------



## greekgeek

What say ye, shellmen?


----------



## firedancer

I say shell.


----------



## CaptainAddy

Shell.

I still say not shell Aussie. While there are no micro-creases indeed, those are not the only indicators of calf over shell. Shell tends to roll in waves Not too often will you see 'crumples' for lack of a better word, except on calf. I could be wrong, but I'm still sticking with calf. Nice quality, no doubt, but still calf.


----------



## tonylumpkin

I also say shell.


----------



## Aussie

I say probably shell - but more photos needed to confirm.


----------



## Aussie

n0rm said:


> I did notify the seller, I was told "Thanks for your input"
> 
> Like what Orgetorix said, report back when you receive the shoes. All we're doing right now is speculating. If the shoes are shell, well and good, we can add the model number to the database. Win for everyone!


Will report back when they arrive!


----------



## frosejr

Hanovers = shell

and if they are 12B or C I want them!! :icon_smile_big:


----------



## greekgeek

frosejr said:


> Hanovers = shell
> 
> and if they are 12B or C I want them!! :icon_smile_big:


Funny you mention that, they are 11B but coincidentally I just listed these size 12B Hanover shoes in Shell Cordovan @ $0.99 no reserve. Free shipping for you if win the auction just let me know.


----------



## greekgeek

What say ye here? Vintage Florsheim. I know what I think. More pics in the link (not mine, just passing it along...)


----------



## n0rm

greekgeek said:


> What say ye here? Vintage Florsheim. I know what I think. More pics in the link (not mine, just passing it along...)


I vote shell. I'm actually inquiring about those. Asked for pics of the shoe with the hole in the sole. He also has a pair of burgundy that are in worse shape than this one for $50.

As for the Cordwainers I posted before, I guess they were shell. Being sold now for $400!!


----------



## Aussie

Shell!


----------



## CMDC

Those Cordwainers are amazing. Glad they aren't my size or there'd be a lot of mental energy being spent thinking about them.


----------



## Aussie

They arrived in Australia today.. They are ....wait for it:

!!100% No. 8 SHELL!!

Pantina is just exquisite - perfect fit too!

They are Florsheim Imperial short wings - in #8 shell cordovan model 612986.

I'm one happy camper!


----------



## Aussie

Aussie said:


> First pair of Florsheim shortwing balmorals that I have seen that might be shell! I see them in calf all the time -- but never in shell! I saw these on eBay for $79 so I snapped them up.
> 
> -No microcreases -- despite enough wear to be re-soled & re-heeled.
> -The color and look of the leather also says Shell!
> 
> I'm not 100% sure they are shell -- what do you think?
> 
> View attachment 5036
> View attachment 5037


Here are the photos again..


----------



## greekgeek

Aussie said:


> They arrived in Australia today.. They are ....wait for it:
> 
> !!100% No. 8 SHELL!!
> 
> Pantina is just exquisite - perfect fit too!
> 
> They are Florsheim Imperial short wings - in #8 shell cordovan model 612986.
> 
> I'm one happy camper!


Congrats, that seems to make them a bargain Wear them well!


----------



## n0rm

Aussie said:


> Here are the photos again..


CONGRATS! :aportnoy:

Now shine them up and post bigger pics so we can see them better!


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Wacolo, I'd say shell, although the pics are too dark to really tell, except for the last one: shell ripples and whitish color at the bottom of the crease.

Make sure you confirm the size though.


----------



## n0rm

What do you gents think? Owner insists that it's shell, even gives me a lecture on the virtues of it.

"As the original owner I can assure you they are Shell Cordovan. The original packaging stated they were Shell Cordovan and they cost much more than a pair of calfskin shoes. I do not know what you are referring to about the creases. The creases you reference maybe due to the WingTip style. But it is impossible to wear any pair of shoes without developing some creases. Shell Cordovan is very comfortable because it is softer, very flexible and is not stiff like most leathers but it is also tough. The advantage of Shell Cordovan is it is made from special horsehide that has fewer pores so it is very smooth. You can also do an eBay search of other listings of this same model shoe in different sizes and they are also listed and described as Shell Cordovan. "

Either someone pulled a fast one on him or he applied too much polish and it's cracking causing the creases?


----------



## mr.v

Sorry, the jm pair is not shell. I have the shell version of those. Not even close.


----------



## Aussie

Shell!


----------



## Aussie

n0rm said:


> What do you gents think? Owner insists that it's shell, even gives me a lecture on the virtues of it.
> 
> "As the original owner I can assure you they are Shell Cordovan. The original packaging stated they were Shell Cordovan and they cost much more than a pair of calfskin shoes. I do not know what you are referring to about the creases. The creases you reference maybe due to the WingTip style. But it is impossible to wear any pair of shoes without developing some creases. Shell Cordovan is very comfortable because it is softer, very flexible and is not stiff like most leathers but it is also tough. The advantage of Shell Cordovan is it is made from special horsehide that has fewer pores so it is very smooth. You can also do an eBay search of other listings of this same model shoe in different sizes and they are also listed and described as Shell Cordovan. "
> 
> Either someone pulled a fast one on him or he applied to much polish and it's cracking causing the creases?


Not shell..


----------



## frosejr

Aussie said:


> Not shell..


And now he has ended the auction. Busted?


----------



## n0rm

frosejr said:


> And now he has ended the auction. Busted?


I think he got upset that he'd been deceived.

Subsequent messages:

As I said before I am the original owner and the original packaging and labeling stated they were Shell Cordovan. Maybe Johnston & Murphy used a different tanning process. If you do not want them do not bid for them. 

2nd one:

I pulled my listing until I can get a second opinion. They were sold to me as Shell Cordovan.


----------



## greekgeek

n0rm said:


> What do you gents think? Owner insists that it's shell, even gives me a lecture on the virtues of it.
> 
> "As the original owner I can assure you they are Shell Cordovan. The original packaging stated they were Shell Cordovan and they cost much more than a pair of calfskin shoes. I do not know what you are referring to about the creases. The creases you reference maybe due to the WingTip style. But it is impossible to wear any pair of shoes without developing some creases. Shell Cordovan is very comfortable because it is softer, very flexible and is not stiff like most leathers but it is also tough. The advantage of Shell Cordovan is it is made from special horsehide that has fewer pores so it is very smooth. You can also do an eBay search of other listings of this same model shoe in different sizes and they are also listed and described as Shell Cordovan. "
> 
> Either someone pulled a fast one on him or he applied too much polish and it's cracking causing the creases?


Not even close.... no shell to be had here.


----------



## tonylumpkin

greekgeek said:


> Not even close.... no shell to be had here.


Yeah. That seller is in for a big disappointment.


----------



## jt2gt

Any chance of shell on these saddles from JM. I am guessing no, but thought I would ask:



JT


----------



## CMDC

^Negative


----------



## firedancer

^^ and not so "barely worn". Holy creased vamp Batman!


----------



## triklops55

n0rm said:


> What do you gents think? Owner insists that it's shell, even gives me a lecture on the virtues of it.
> 
> "As the original owner I can assure you they are Shell Cordovan. The original packaging stated they were Shell Cordovan and they cost much more than a pair of calfskin shoes. I do not know what you are referring to about the creases. The creases you reference maybe due to the WingTip style. But it is impossible to wear any pair of shoes without developing some creases. Shell Cordovan is very comfortable because it is softer, very flexible and is not stiff like most leathers but it is also tough. The advantage of Shell Cordovan is it is made from special horsehide that has fewer pores so it is very smooth. You can also do an eBay search of other listings of this same model shoe in different sizes and they are also listed and described as Shell Cordovan. "
> 
> Either someone pulled a fast one on him or he applied too much polish and it's cracking causing the creases?


I think anyone who would drop the dough to buy a new pair of shells would know the difference in appearance between shell and other leathers. You should have asked him when he purchased the shoes, since I'm pretty sure J&M hasn't sold shell shoes in a couple of decades.


----------



## Tommi

*Shell or not?*

Stuart McGuire shoes. Shell or corrected grain?


----------



## Cardinals5

Corrected grain - the obvious giveaway with Stuart MacGuire's is that their CG shoes don't have a leather sole. The soles on the pair above are composite material.


----------



## Tommi

^ Thanks for making that clear!


----------



## wacolo

I vote shell, though they have seen better days.


----------



## firedancer

^yep. I call that key fob shell. Cause I wouldn't want to wear those. I usually don't cut the grass in gunboats.


----------



## CMDC

Agree. Those would need a Mac Method that I don't think even Mac could succeed at.


----------



## n0rm

I vote shell.


----------



## wacolo

I was just getting ready to post those. :smile:


----------



## wacolo

Shell say I. And a nice price to boot.....


----------



## mikeh

My size! thank goodness I already have a pair of Florsheim v-cleat longwings. They look like it to me, but none of the pictures are at an angle and distance for me to be sure. Speaking of the pictures, I don't think I've ever seen as many angles provided on the shoe trees!


----------



## wacolo

I don't know if these were posted. Seller says they are unsure if they are shell or not. I say no, mostly on the finish but also they eyelets.


----------



## ArtVandalay

wacolo said:


> I don't know if these were posted. Seller says they are unsure if they are shell or not. I say no, mostly on the finish but also they eyelets.


Shell.


----------



## firedancer

Thats tough but I'm saying they indeed are. The color shading on the 3 pic says Shell to me. 

Did they tell you the style #? 

They're listed at shell price


----------



## seathingie

I also think they're shell.


----------



## Reldresal

https://www.ebay.com/itm/170877260220?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

??


----------



## firedancer

Reldresal said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/170877260220?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
> 
> ??


Nope!


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Very much corrected grain.


----------



## dexconstruct

What do you guys think? https://www.ebay.com/itm/360482688450?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## Bandit44

Florsheims yes, other pair no.



dexconstruct said:


> What do you guys think? https://www.ebay.com/itm/360482688450?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## mr.v

The florsheims might even say "genuine shell cordovan" on the soles.


----------



## Odradek

Just received these Jarman saddle shoes from ebay.
The vendor had them described as Cordovan, but seeing the "Made in Korea" label inside, I'm not too sure.
Not that it matters. I didn't even notice they were listed as Cordovan when I bought them, just thought nice saddle shoes in my size.


----------



## Cardinals5

dexconstruct said:


> What do you guys think? https://www.ebay.com/itm/360482688450?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


Both pairs are shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

Odradek said:


> Just received these Jarman saddle shoes from ebay.
> The vendor had them described as Cordovan, but seeing the "Made in Korea" label inside, I'm not too sure.
> Not that it matters. I didn't even notice they were listed as Cordovan when I bought them, just thought nice saddle shoes in my size.
> 
> View attachment 5288
> View attachment 5289


Not shell, corrected grain


----------



## n0rm

Shell? Methinks yes.


----------



## Odradek

Cardinals5 said:


> Not shell, corrected grain


Thought it might be pretty unlikely.
Not to worry. $10 on ebay.
Look good, perfect fit, and are very comfortable.


----------



## The Deacon

n0rm said:


> Shell? Methinks yes.


Ah yes, the sweetest of shell. They remind me of my bygone Flor shell pennies, same coloration and vintage with the sceptre!


----------



## roman totale XVII

n0rm said:


> Shell? Methinks yes.


Grail alert!!


----------



## dexconstruct

I sure hope so, since I bought both pairs!



Cardinals5 said:


> Both pairs are shell.


----------



## n0rm

Looks like shell:



my size too but am holding out for Macneils or Florsheim.


----------



## seathingie

I have some Florsheims...black 9B longwings in _excellent_ condition. I'm going to list them for sale when I am able (you need to be a member for a certain period or something like that).


----------



## n0rm

^ thanks, I'm at the wide end of a medium, so a "B" would def. be too narrow.


----------



## dexconstruct

I just received both of the pairs I posted earlier, and they are both shell! 

Two pairs of beautifully patinaed (is this a word?) shell longwings for less than a hundred bucks. I think that's what this thread is for!


----------



## n0rm

dexconstruct said:


> I just received both of the pairs I posted earlier, and they are both shell! Two pairs of beautifully patinaed (is this a word?) shell longwings for less than a hundred bucks. I think that's what this thread is for!


 originally posted the Ward's here: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...hell-(Warning-Big-Pics)&p=1325645#post1325645

Boggles my mind that Montgomery Ward had shell shoes when it's even hard to find decent shoes at Macy's now.


----------



## leisureclass

I was really tempted by those, they look great, but that mark on the one side, I hope isn't too bad for the member who picked em up.


----------



## n0rm

Thanks to the shell hunter's guide and this thread, I was able to cop these for $55!










Original JR Soles still solid:


----------



## firedancer

Great score!


----------



## tgadd

n0rm, those are some beautiful shoes. Have to get a pair.


----------



## dexconstruct

The Florsheims:










The Montgomery Wards:










It seems unbelievable that these were department store shoes. I almost like them more than the Florsheims!


----------



## Orgetorix

Yes to both, if you were asking. The Wards look like they could be pretty dried out, so be careful.


----------



## n0rm

Orgetorix said:


> Yes to both, if you were asking. The Wards look like they could be pretty dried out, so be careful.


When they are that "dry" is Venetian Shoe Cream enough to condition it back? Or do I need to supplement with something else? Lexol? Connolly Hide Food?


----------



## Jory

Shell?


----------



## firedancer

^ yep


----------



## seathingie

Are these Florsheims shell?


----------



## wacolo

seathingie said:


> Are these Florsheim's shell?


Nope.


----------



## brantley11

Those look to be pebble grain



Jory said:


> Shell?


----------



## Jory

After enlarging the pictures, I'm inclined to agree with you. This is especially strange considering the ad specifically states that they are not pebble grained, but smooth leather.



brantley11 said:


> Those look to be pebble grain


----------



## firedancer

brantley11 said:


> Those look to be pebble grain


Well besides the fact that they're shell the seller goes out of his way to describe them as NOT pebble grain.....


----------



## firedancer

firedancer said:


> Well besides the fact that they're shell the seller goes out of his way to describe them as NOT pebble grain.....


Well, after looking at that 3rd picture I'm second guessing myself...


----------



## Jory

firedancer said:


> Well, after looking at that 3rd picture I'm second guessing myself...


That's the one I saw that started to make me think "not shell" after enlarging it. Seems like I can see the pebble-grained surface just below the lacing and creasing on the vamp.


----------



## firedancer

A quick glance at the style # should solve the mystery. If you're interested
Email the sell for that


----------



## ArtVandalay

Not shell.


----------



## Jory

firedancer said:


> A quick glance at the style # should solve the mystery. If you're interested
> Email the sell for that


Contacted the seller who posted an image with the style number. Looks like 93630 which doesn't show up on the Shell Guide. Anyone know what that model corresponds to?


----------



## spielerman




----------



## firedancer

^nope


----------



## seathingie

Firedancer,

In those photos of the loafers just posted, what do you see that says, "Not shell"? I ask because I don't know how to determine if a shoe is shell or not if it is lacking the characteristic rolls.

Thanks!


----------



## firedancer

Can't put my finger on it. They just look like plasticky CG to my eye.


----------



## danielm

I'm with firedancer. The visual texture seems off. I've only handled 4-5 pairs of shell, and they didn't have the same grainy look that you can see toward the edges and in the light. 

Of course, I could still be totally wrong.


----------



## dkoernert

https://www.ebay.com/itm/120993370703?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2649

These are listed as shell, but dont look like shell to me...


----------



## catside

^ Not


----------



## firedancer

Not even close


----------



## dkoernert

I didn't think so. I contacted the seller to offer my opinion.


----------



## tgadd

Thinking of purchasing my first pair of shells - can anyone comment on these Bostonians?


----------



## wacolo

^^^^^^
Not shell.


----------



## tgadd

Thank you. This is going to be difficult finding a used pair and making sure they are actually shell.


----------



## wacolo

tgadd said:


> Thank you. This is going to be difficult finding a used pair and making sure they are actually shell.


Just keep posting them as you find them. What size are you looking to find?


----------



## tgadd

wacolo said:


> Just keep posting them as you find them. What size are you looking to find?


12D

Thoughts on -


----------



## tonylumpkin

tgadd said:


> 12D
> 
> Thoughts on -


Those ARE shell but, if you're a true 12 D, they're going to be too narrow for you. They are a B width.


----------



## tgadd

Thank you Tony. Good catch on the B inside the shoe. Didn't even look at that. It looks like the right shoe is A width. (I'm assuming A does not equal B in shoe widths)


----------



## frosejr

Nope, those shoes are a mess too. I don't know what's up with the soles, but they have been ridden hard and put away wet.


----------



## nohio

Any opinions on ? If they aren't shell, something odd appears to be going on.


----------



## dkoernert

I vote no on those.


----------



## CMDC

Prognosis Negative


----------



## frosejr

^^ definitely not


----------



## veloscaraptor

thoughts on these? Also, where does Church's Royal Tweed line stack up in terms of quality?


----------



## lemmywinks

Those look like shell.Somewhat on topic...Pretty sure these bad boys are shell.





















They're the right size... For $90, should I go for it?


----------



## catside

^ and ^^ both shell. Cheaney dabbled in shell sometime in the past for US market. Quality is on par with any Nothamptom handmade IMHO altough they are a relatively cheaper brand. After Cheaney family sold Church's to Prada they did revive the brand and now making shoes again under that brand. BNelson thinks they are an excellent quality/price point, it's somewhere in the thread few years back. I trust BNelson's expertise. 
I got myself tempted to be frank


----------



## n0rm

Shell? Hoping that it is.










What's everyones take on shoes that have been half soled? I remember a thread where NickV(B Nelson) advised against it, destroyed the integrity of the shoes. If shoes have been half soled, can I resend them to a cobbler to be rectified?


----------



## wacolo

^^^^^^
Shell.

I have had half soles redone with full soles and heels. I never had an issue, but ymmv.


----------



## veloscaraptor

catside said:


> ^ and ^^ both shell. Cheaney dabbled in shell sometime in the past for US market. Quality is on par with any Nothamptom handmade IMHO altough they are a relatively cheaper brand. After Cheaney family sold Church's to Prada they did revive the brand and now making shoes again under that brand. BNelson thinks they are an excellent quality/price point, it's somewhere in the thread few years back. I trust BNelson's expertise.
> I got myself tempted to be frank


Thanks for the info. Had my offer accepted, so I guess I'll find out if they're the real thing in a few days.


----------



## dexconstruct

I'm pretty sure these are shell...any opinions? https://www.ebay.com/itm/360463381527?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## firedancer

Yes. Shell. Well worn shell.


----------



## n0rm

wacolo said:


> ^^^^^^
> Shell.
> 
> I have had half soles redone with full soles and heels. I never had an issue, but ymmv.


Thanks so much!


----------



## frosejr

These are shell, but I don't pay market rate for resoled shoes, which those are. On old shoes you can't really tell if the resole was done well.



lemmywinks said:


> Those look like shell.Somewhat on topic...Pretty sure these bad boys are shell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're the right size... For $90, should I go for it?


----------



## Steve Smith

frosejr said:


> These are shell, but I don't pay market rate for resoled shoes, which those are. On old shoes you can't really tell if the resole was done well.


What makes you think those shoes have been resoled?


----------



## frosejr

Steve Smith said:


> What makes you think those shoes have been resoled?


The five-nail pattern doesn't look the same as the original Florsheim five-nail. The stitching along the edges of the soles doesn't look even - some stitches are smaller than others, indicating the cobbler was trying to match the stitches on the sole to the holes on the welt (since the welt sides show and the sole sides don't). They also don't have the Florsheim stamp that goes horizontally out from the heel, pointing toward the toe of the shoe. If they are original Florsheims, with original soles, but the sole is so worn the stamp is gone, then they must be so worn that I wouldn't pay $90 for them for that reason.

Why yes I AM quite anal about my shoes.


----------



## dbhdbhdbh

No opinion about the stitching or nail pattern. But it looks as if the soles have been sanded. Some sellers apparently think this makes them more appealing for sale on ebay. If so, then the Florsheim stamp may have come off. 


In any case, the soles on now are pretty worn, as are the insoles. All of which says the shoes have been used a lot. That might make them worth less than $90. I have purchased Florsheim shells in much better condition for that price or only slight more. Those look like they may need resoling not long after you get them.


I would love to hear from the cobblers whether another resole could correct any presumed problems of a "bad" previous resole, or even a half sole job. 


I have assumed the critical things are good uppers and insoles, which, I gather, cannot be replaced. Soles and heels can be redone. If you are talking $90 for the shoes, and another $95 for a high end restoration by B Nelson, then that is getting pricey for very used shoes. If you have a good cobbler who will do a resole, when needed, for a much lower price, then maybe it is worth it.


----------



## Jory

https://www.ebay.com/itm/251168570065

Shell? Not sure why, but something just looks a little off to me in a couple of the photos. Also, What's a reasonable price for a pair of vintage unworn shoes like these?

Thanks,
Jory


----------



## firedancer

Those look like shell. 
I would think $250 would be fair but obviously they are above that now.


----------



## Pentheos

I just picked up a good-looking pair of for $71. Numbers and appearance confirm shell.


----------



## tonylumpkin

Pentheos said:


> I just picked up a good-looking pair of for $71. Numbers and appearance confirm shell.


A nice pair of shoes! But I don't believe they are shell.


----------



## Pentheos

tonylumpkin said:


> A nice pair of shoes! But I don't believe they are shell.


Combo heels & 9591.


----------



## firedancer

Pentheos said:


> I just picked up a good-looking pair of for $71. Numbers and appearance confirm shell.


Nice score. Those seem like shell to me.


----------



## Pully

dbhdbhdbh said:


> No opinion about the stitching or nail pattern. But it looks as if the soles have been sanded. Some sellers apparently think this makes them more appealing for sale on ebay. If so, then the Florsheim stamp may have come off.


I suspect this is almost always because the thrift store they purchased them from wrote the price on the sole in permanent marker, and they don't want the buyer to know that only paid $5 or $10. I see this all the time (and proudly wear several pairs with the purchase price recorded on the sole).


----------



## tonylumpkin

My apologies! When you hit the link you posted, the first picture you see is another pair of Leeds...black pebble grain.. And, if your looking on an iPad as I am, you don't even see the pair you are referring to, which are most definitely shell.. Nice shoes!


----------



## The Rambler

^same here - the top picture is obviously not shell, but the lower pictures quite obviously _are._ Nice kicks!


----------



## phyrpowr

frosejr said:


> The five-nail pattern doesn't look the same as the original Florsheim five-nail. The stitching along the edges of the soles doesn't look even - some stitches are smaller than others, indicating the cobbler was trying to match the stitches on the sole to the holes on the welt (since the welt sides show and the sole sides don't). They also don't have the Florsheim stamp that goes horizontally out from the heel, pointing toward the toe of the shoe. If they are original Florsheims, with original soles, but the sole is so worn the stamp is gone, then they must be so worn that I wouldn't pay $90 for them for that reason.
> 
> Why yes I AM quite anal about my shoes.


"Maybe/Probably" on the resole, but the insole condition makes me think that the footbed is imprinted, and THAT is a deal killer for sure. Made that mistake once (and only once)


----------



## catside

Pully said:


> I suspect this is almost always because the thrift store they purchased them from wrote the price on the sole in permanent marker, and they don't want the buyer to know that only paid $5 or $10. I see this all the time (and proudly wear several pairs with the purchase price recorded on the sole).


Magic eraser does the job.


----------



## Trevor

catside said:


> Magic eraser does the job.


Great Tip!


----------



## cincydavid

Nail polish remover will get rid of the price on the sole, if it's the silver-colored pan marker...if it's a sharpie or somesuch, good luck removing the mark.


----------



## etown883

hopeful, but probably not?


----------



## Bandit44

^ Not shell.


----------



## etown883

bummer.


----------



## eagle2250

^^+1.

Indeed, those micro creases don't look promising for those shoe to be shell!


----------



## greekgeek

Here is a real challenger, IMHO. 

What then say ye, shellmen??


----------



## firedancer

^ those don't look like shell to me. They may have been resoled but I've never seen shell on a brick sole. 

More likely that they're Deadstock.


----------



## greekgeek

^definately deadstock so soles are original. i didnt really factor factor in the soles, hmmmmm.... still on the fence myself.


----------



## greekgeek

^^Any other thoughts on this pair? :icon_scratch:


----------



## Pentheos

I wouldn't bet on them being shell. Soles are funky, and the photos are bad.


----------



## Bandit44

^^ Although the pictures too blurry to know for sure, I say not shell. The leather looks like Chromexcel or some other oily-finished leather.


----------



## greekgeek

Thanks ya'll, I too think it is a longshot at this point. I will post an update once I get them in hand...


----------



## jonoft

I'm new in the forum, and also new to shell cordovan shoes. I've learned from the forum what to look for, but I find it difficult at times. However, with some luck I have picked up a few unmarked shells on ebay the past weeks. They were all pretty easy to be honest so I'm not going to brag about that. Today I thought I'd found another pair, but now I am not so sure anymore about my new learned capabilities as a "shell spotter". I thought these Allen Edmonds Saratogas had the look of being well used shell shoe, but there was something not quite right about them. At least I felt so, even if I could not pin point anything in particular besides a heel replacement and the model number (8773) not matching with the number (8783) I found in the shell hunters guide. Here is a link to the pair I thought was shell shoes, and below this a link to a Saratoga calf version with the very same type number 8773. Please, someone tell me if I am wrong about the first pair being shell, and if so what is the give-away denoting them as NOT shell. Thanks Jon


----------



## greekgeek

^ First pair is shell. Second pair is not shell.


----------



## greekgeek

greekgeek said:


> Here is a real challenger, IMHO.
> 
> What then say ye, shellmen??


And indeed these are NOT shell! Very nice pair nonetheless..


----------



## CMDC

greekgeek said:


> ^ First pair is shell. Second pair is not shell.


Correct. #1 shell, #2 no


----------



## jonoft

Thank you! Is the conclusion then that AE put an incorrect model number in the shell shoe then since this is identical to the calf shoe?


----------



## Cardinals5

jonoft said:


> Thank you! Is the conclusion then that AE put an incorrect model number in the shell shoe then since this is identical to the calf shoe?


No, the conclusion should be that AE reused some model numbers. In several instances, AE has reused older model numbers or changed model numbers between calf and shell, which explains why some AE models (e.g. Leeds) had several different model numbers over the years. In your example, the giveaway that it was model numbers that shifted is that the older version (the calf)(1970s) have a significantly different design than the later (shell)(1980s-) Saratogas.


----------



## jonoft

The few shells that I have spotted so far would undoubtly have been very easy for a more trained eye than mine, but I got to start somewhere. What about this one? The picture quality is bad but I have a feeling they could be shell. I seem to remember Cheaney making shell pre-Prada. What do you guys say, is it a "no way" or is it a "maybe"? And if maybe, is the feeling strong enought that you would have asked seller for a better picture?


----------



## tonylumpkin

jonoft said:


> The few shells that I have spotted so far would undoubtly have been very easy for a more trained eye than mine, but I got so start somewhere. What about this one? The picture quality is bad but I have a feeling they could be shell. I seem to remember Cheaney making shell pre-Prada. What do you guys say, is it a "no way" or is it a "maybe"? And if maybe, is the feeling strong enought that you would have asked seller for a better picture?


Maybe, leaning toward "they are". Ask the seller for more pics.
Good luck and welcome to the forums.
Cheers,
Mike


----------



## Pentheos

jonoft said:


> The few shells that I have spotted so far would undoubtly have been very easy for a more trained eye than mine, but I got to start somewhere. What about this one? The picture quality is bad but I have a feeling they could be shell. I seem to remember Cheaney making shell pre-Prada. What do you guys say, is it a "no way" or is it a "maybe"? And if maybe, is the feeling strong enought that you would have asked seller for a better picture?


Hard to tell, they might be shell. But they're very ugly.


----------



## englade321

Pentheos said:


> Hard to tell, they might be shell. But they're very ugly.


they're so ugly i'd cut em up and make a wallet


----------



## jonoft

Those Cheaneys may be ugly, but I liked the tone of color. Also I think that I like a dull appearance better than a high shine on shell shoes so I brushed my Aldens for an hour (I'm quite fit for my age) with a rather stiff marten hair brush to get a dull look. Jon


----------



## knucklehead

*A little help for a shell newbie?*

The seller claims that these shoes are shell:

I know nothing about how to distinguish shell from other kinds of leather, especially based on photos. But I do know that many of you can do just that. Will one of you kind souls please check the photos and offer an opinion? Thank you!


----------



## wacolo

knucklehead said:


> The seller claims that these shoes are shell:
> 
> I know nothing about how to distinguish shell from other kinds of leather, especially based on photos. But I do know that many of you can do just that. Will one of you kind souls please check the photos and offer an opinion? Thank you!


Not shell.


----------



## CMDC

Negative. Clear microcreasing.


----------



## Acme

CMDC said:


> Negative. Clear microcreasing.


+1 to that.


----------



## knucklehead

Gents - Thanks a bunch.


----------



## Acme

OK, I should be working, but now I've been bargain hunting instead.

What's your opinion of these?

*Vtg Mens Shoes FLORSHEIM IMPERIAL Bluchers LONG LINE WINGTIP 10.5 Cortina Soles

*I vote shell. And if you're a 10.5 E, they seem a bargain at $48.


----------



## CMDC

Nope.


----------



## mr.v

Acme said:


> OK, I should be working, but now I've been bargain hunting instead.
> 
> What's your opinion of these?
> 
> *Vtg Mens Shoes FLORSHEIM IMPERIAL Bluchers LONG LINE WINGTIP 10.5 Cortina Soles
> 
> *I vote shell. And if you're a 10.5 E, they seem a bargain at $48.


Those are shell, but I would pass. The condition is too poor.


----------



## Brianpore




----------



## Acme

^OK, I'll vote shell.


----------



## Himself

^^^Nice shell!


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

mr.v said:


> Those are shell, but I would pass. The condition is too poor.


Sorry Mr. V but those shoes are calfskin : microcreasing is the giveaway.


----------



## conductor

Mr. V,

I'd say quite dry shell. There is some roughness in the creases, but to my eye it does not quite look the same as the micro creases you'd find on calf. Some Venetian cream and a good rub with a deer bone would fix that right up, but I'd be worried about the leather cracking.

Brianpore,

Shell yeah, and very cool.


----------



## Brianpore

*RARE VTG Florsheim Imperial YUMA SHELL CORDOVAN 11 C original sole & heel*



conductor said:


> Brianpore,
> 
> Shell yeah, and very cool.


Thanks, grabbed them at a thrift as I thought they were just be the look/feel but like to verify here. Didnt know how rare/sought after this particual pair was till looking on ebay.

VTG Florsheim Imperial YUMA's 

Thanks again to everyone who responded and happy holidays!


----------



## bandwich

What do you think?


----------



## wacolo

^^^^^Shell


----------



## Steve Smith

?


----------



## phyrpowr

Brother Steve, I don't think so. Look at the vamp, top eyelet, lower one. Think they're new heavily waxed cow


----------



## Cardinals5

Without a doubt


----------



## gyasih

Non-shell. I have not yet matured to like the look of the rolls associated with shell.


----------



## mcarthur

gyasih said:


> Non-shell. I have not yet matured to like the look of the rolls associated with shell.


welcome to the forum
someday you will like the creases and the rolls


----------



## gyasih

mcarthur said:


> welcome to the forum
> someday you will like the creases and the rolls


I admire your look, especially with the socks. Keep rocking out and see you on SF.


----------



## Orgetorix

gyasih said:


> Non-shell. I have not yet matured to like the look of the rolls associated with shell.


I think you misunderstood the purpose of this thread. It's not a "do you like shell" thread, but a "are these shoes shell" thread.


----------



## Acme

I'll vote shell.


----------



## tocohillsguy

Hanovers. Shell or calf?


----------



## firedancer

Calf.


----------



## frosejr

tocohillsguy said:


> Hanovers. Shell or calf?


Moooooooooo

Nice, but calf


----------



## wacolo

Probably Indian judging by the box, but could still be shell.


----------



## firedancer

wacolo said:


> Probably Indian judging by the box, but could still be shell.


I think so. The seller states that the sole is stamped cordovan as well. A good price for shell...


----------



## frosejr

wacolo said:


> Probably Indian judging by the box, but could still be shell.


Yes shell, and a good deal too! They don't look used much at all.


----------



## Cardinals5

Seems shell, but not sure. If anyone's interested, they're an unknown US maker for Paul Stuart (8.5D)


----------



## jt2gt

Any thoughts on these. Unknown maker of course:


----------



## CMDC

^Shell. And very nice.


----------



## Shiny

jt2gt said:


> Any thoughts on these. Unknown maker of course:


Wow! Sweet Saddles!


----------



## Acme

^I think that guy must have knocked over a shoe museum. 

They aren't shell, but did you see these?


----------



## jbarwick

Any ideas gents? I see Optima has a couple of items but these look older. So shell?


----------



## CMDC

Nope. Not even close. The close up shot of the uppers shows clear microcreasing.


----------



## knucklehead

Gents - 

Please lend me your expertise. Are these shell? 



Thanks.


----------



## frosejr

knucklehead said:


> Gents -
> 
> Please lend me your expertise. Are these shell?
> 
> Thanks.


Yes, but they've been resoled at least once, and not particularly well. I avoid shoes with hack jobs on the soles, they're almost impossible to get right once that's been done.


----------



## Sgpearl

*Lottusse Black Plain Toe*

I think this thread started with a pair of Lotus shells that Cardinals5 picked up cheap. I'm new at this but these look like shell to my admittedly untrained eye: *. If they are, they're cheap for anyone who wants them. *


----------



## Sgpearl

*Cordovan Dexter Longwings, but Shell Cordovan?*

Someone got the "Lottusses" above. If they were shell, I hope it was someone here. Next question: -- cordovan color, but are they shell cordovan? I thought so, looking at them on my ipad, but with a better view on my desktop, they look like they have significant micro-creases and must be calf. Correct? If not, please don't snatch them. I want em!

Steve


----------



## Orgetorix

You're right; not shell.


----------



## Acme

^ +1.


----------



## Sgpearl

*Looking for Unidentified Shell*

I've decided that my next shoe purchase will be shell. Everyone loves it so much that I figure I should give it a try. Unfortunately, I have neither deep pockets or a wife who sympathizes with my current sartorial obsessions.

So I spent most of the morning looking at every pair of size 9 1/2 leather shoes on ebay. 2,000 pairs later, I've got nothing. If any of you comes across an unidentified pair in 9 1/2 (any style and color will do) and wants to share, you will earn my undying admiration and appreciation. And I may even get my wife to send you some baked goods, which are quite good. 

Steve


----------



## Sgpearl

*Seller says these are shell. Are they?*

Cole Haan shell? I don't think so but I'm a rookie. What do you say?

https://photos.queencitytrader.com/feb2013/6/1/0206_1_073.jpg
https://photos.queencitytrader.com/feb2013/6/1/0206_1_074.jpg
https://photos.queencitytrader.com/feb2013/6/1/0206_1_079.jpg

Steve


----------



## wacolo

Sgpearl said:


> Cole Haan shell? I don't think so but I'm a rookie. What do you say?
> 
> https://photos.queencitytrader.com/feb2013/6/1/0206_1_073.jpg
> https://photos.queencitytrader.com/feb2013/6/1/0206_1_074.jpg
> https://photos.queencitytrader.com/feb2013/6/1/0206_1_079.jpg
> 
> Steve


Not Not Not.


----------



## wacolo

Sgpearl said:


> I've decided that my next shoe purchase will be shell. Everyone loves it so much that I figure I should give it a try. Unfortunately, I have neither deep pockets or a wife who sympathizes with my current sartorial obsessions.
> 
> So I spent most of the morning looking at every pair of size 9 1/2 leather shoes on ebay. 2,000 pairs later, I've got nothing. If any of you comes across an unidentified pair in 9 1/2 (any style and color will do) and wants to share, you will earn my undying admiration and appreciation. And I may even get my wife to send you some baked goods, which are quite good.
> 
> Steve


Can you do a ?


----------



## Cardinals5

Sgpearl said:


> I've decided that my next shoe purchase will be shell. Everyone loves it so much that I figure I should give it a try. Unfortunately, I have neither deep pockets or a wife who sympathizes with my current sartorial obsessions.
> 
> So I spent most of the morning looking at every pair of size 9 1/2 leather shoes on ebay. 2,000 pairs later, I've got nothing. If any of you comes across an unidentified pair in 9 1/2 (any style and color will do) and wants to share, you will earn my undying admiration and appreciation. And I may even get my wife to send you some baked goods, which are quite good.
> 
> Steve


AE Graysons, 9.5E


----------



## Acme

I had a few minutes this morning, so I took the SQPearl challenge to find a pair of 9.5 shell shoes cheap on eBay.

Here's what I found:

What do you say, shell or no?


----------



## Sgpearl

You guys are unbelievable! Wacolo, the wingtips are beautiful. For those, I can do a C. I'm assuming that they could be stretched to a D. Cards, nice loafers. I will take them if I can get them at a good price, but there are a few bids already so we'll see. And Acme, I say shell on the black wingtips, so I grabbed them. $30 shipped is too good to let get away, even if they are EEE. (What do you do with shoes that are too wide? I guess I'll wear two pairs of socks!) I'll let you know how they look when I get them cleaned up. Thank you all very, very much. I owe you big time!


----------



## Sgpearl

What about these? Puffy around the eyelets, deep color. A little hard to tell from these pics, but I don't think there are any micro-creases. I'm thinking shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Definitely not shell. Looks like microcreases in the first picture, scuffs indicative of cg on the toes, and the color is too consistent for shell that old.

Wait until you get your first pair, give them a close look, flip through lots of eBay pages, and you'll gradually develop an eye for shell. Don't run off buying up every pair that might be shell - you'll spend as much on mistakes as a marked pair would cost.


----------



## Sgpearl

Thanks for the comments and the advice, Cards. I do tend to go off half-cocked from time to time.


----------



## Sgpearl

Tommi: 

I say no because of the micro-creases on the vamps, but I've been wrong before. Others here will give a definitive answer. 

Steve


----------



## Orgetorix

No. That microcreasing is the sort that could almost be old built up polish, which you see on old shells and can sometimes fool you. And there's some depth of color on the vamps, which you'd expect to see in shell that old. But the giveaway is the area around the penny slot, especially on the left shoe (right side of the picture): it's just flat and lifeless, with none of the sheen, depth of color, or "puffy" texture that you'd see on shell. The edges of the penny slot are too crisp and square; with shell they'd be rounded off.


----------



## Sgpearl

Orgetorix:

That is a level of sophistication that I just don't have. Thanks for the tutorial. Here's a pair of Aldens that (I think) illustrates your point.


----------



## Tommi

Thank you all! I was quite sure that those pennies were shell but your comments made me look at them more closely.


----------



## Sgpearl

. Looks like they've had a half resole. I'm assuming this is a bad thing. Otherwise they look very nice. $55 BIN. But are they really shell?


----------



## Orgetorix

No. Not shell.


----------



## Sgpearl

Orgetorix: Why? What's the give-away? Looks like some micro-creasing. Is that it?


----------



## wacolo

There's your problem......


----------



## Orgetorix

The micro-creasing is the dead giveaway, but the wear pattern to the color, especially where the kiltie fringe has rubbed away the color on the vamp, is characteristic of CG. Also, I've never seen a pair of kiltie tassels like that in shell, and though that isn't conclusive it's another small point in my mind that weighs in favor of CG.


----------



## Pentheos

100% not shell. For the reasons mentioned.

You're new to the horse's ass. After you have a pair or two, your eyes will adjust to spotting fine used shell.


----------



## dkoernert

Shell? I put these on the Bay as shell and wanted to make absolutely certain they are.


----------



## wacolo

dkoernert said:


> Shell? I put these on the Bay as shell and wanted to make absolutely certain they are.


Oh yeah! Lovely!


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Dkoenert, beyond the shadow of a doubt (shadow of a shell crease?), these shoes are shell. They're lovely as well. What are they? AEs? Aldens?

I once thrifted a pair of shells that I put up on Ebay with a starting bid of $0.99, the flurry of bids was unbelievable.


----------



## MWhisler

Here's a pair going for a low price for any who takes a 10.5 E


----------



## Sgpearl

These? I'm guessing no, but...


----------



## Orgetorix

You guessed correctly.


----------



## dkoernert

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Dkoenert, beyond the shadow of a doubt (shadow of a shell crease?), these shoes are shell. They're lovely as well. What are they? AEs? Aldens?
> 
> I once thrifted a pair of shells that I put up on Ebay with a starting bid of $0.99, the flurry of bids was unbelievable.


Thanks, They are AE's. I haven't seen another pair like them. I picked them up on Ebay, but they were too narrow for me so I had to re-sell.


----------



## tocohillsguy

This picture is from a pair I'm fairly sure are shell cordovan. It looks like the leather on the top of the left rear of the shoe is dried out and cracking. Any hope for these or are they toast?


----------



## lookngr8

Picked up these Crown Windsors, and...while shell-not-shell is pretty clear to me a lot of the time (you guys do have some close calls here!), the pebble grain has disabled my power to discern. Since I took these pics I've Lexol'd the shoes, if more will help.





































THese shoes also have "Hand Lasted" in the Gothic lettering on the sole. Is that a clue? My Bostonian shoes knowledge is limited; I couldn't Google non-shell Crown Windsors that had this feature. I was hoping maybe the experts here could expound upon that.

Thanks


----------



## frosejr

lookngr8 said:


> Picked up these Crown Windsors, and...while shell-not-shell is pretty clear to me a lot of the time (you guys do have some close calls here!), the pebble grain has disabled my power to discern. Since I took these pics I've Lexol'd the shoes, if more will help.
> 
> THese shoes also have "Hand Lasted" in the Gothic lettering on the sole. Is that a clue? My Bostonian shoes knowledge is limited; I couldn't Google non-shell Crown Windsors that had this feature. I was hoping maybe the experts here could expound upon that.
> 
> Thanks


I have never seen pebble grained shell. It may exist, but it would be so rare that the likelihood you've found some is quite slim (no disrespect intended).


----------



## tocohillsguy

lookngr8 said:


> Picked up these Crown Windsors, and...while shell-not-shell is pretty clear to me a lot of the time (you guys do have some close calls here!), the pebble grain has disabled my power to discern. Since I took these pics I've Lexol'd the shoes, if more will help.
> 
> THese shoes also have "Hand Lasted" in the Gothic lettering on the sole. Is that a clue? My Bostonian shoes knowledge is limited; I couldn't Google non-shell Crown Windsors that had this feature. I was hoping maybe the experts here could expound upon that.
> 
> Thanks


I don't know if they are shell but I like them. Pebble grain shell exists, but is rare. I think Alden offered it for awhile. I'm not sure if it's only recently available, or if it can be found in vintage shoes. Perhaps you can tell by how it feels or interacts with traditional paste wax.

Some pictures of pebble grain shell can be found here...

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...?76765-Alden-shell-cordovan-pebble-grain-pics


----------



## Sgpearl

tocohillsguy said:


> Some pictures of pebble grain shell can be found here...
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...?76765-Alden-shell-cordovan-pebble-grain-pics


Those pebble grain boots are beautiful. I pm'd the owner to see if he would post current pictures now that he's had them for a few years.


----------



## Sgpearl

How about these? The rolling creases look like shell to me, but I'm not sure that they have the requisite luster, particularly on the toes. Hopefully I'm getting better at this.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Actually, shell cordovan creases white, as opposed to dark. The pictures posted are not necessarily clear enough, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were corrected grain leather.


----------



## Sgpearl

This is my obsessive side at work. How about these? I don't see any micro-creases, there's some luster, and there's a lot of color variation (although I'm guessing that could just be a lot of bad polishing). Shell or not shell?


----------



## Pentheos

Tough one, but I say shell.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Yes, shell


----------



## Tilton

Shell, no question. That's how my cigar LHSs looked when I ebay'd them.


----------



## Sgpearl

Well that's good to hear, cause I bought em! Got a good deal on em too! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## poorboy

Can the scratches be successfully covered up? How well does cordovan take polish?


----------



## Sgpearl

poorboy said:


> Can the scratches be successfully covered up? How well does cordovan take polish?


poorboy:

Im no expert but from what I have read, the primary tools for removing scratches from shell are a horsehair brush, a deer bone, and plenty of elbow grease, rather than polish. Search for the Mac method for more info.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Poorboy, Sgpearl has it pretty right: I would actually start with an old cotton sock over your hand and strongly massaging the scratched areas with the tip of your covered fingers, followed with lots of brushing. You will likely be able to make the scratches less noticeable. I personally use shoe cream as opposed to wax on my shells (AE sells such a wax, as does the French company Saphir). With a good deal of elbow grease, they'll likely look better than they do now.

Find the Mac Method on here and you'll be on your way to great shoes.


----------



## poorboy

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Poorboy, Sgpearl has it pretty right: I would actually start with an old cotton sock over your hand and strongly massaging the scratched areas with the tip of your covered fingers, followed with lots of brushing. You will likely be able to make the scratches less noticeable. I personally use shoe cream as opposed to wax on my shells (AE sells such a wax, as does the French company Saphir). With a good deal of elbow grease, they'll likely look better than they do now.
> 
> Find the Mac Method on here and you'll be on your way to great shoes.


Someone bought the shoes. That's OK. I don't really need shell cordovan shoes.


----------



## Dmontez

https://www.ebay.com/itm/221182638198?redirect=mobile

I found these Alden NST cordovan on eBay and am in talks with the current owner about the price. It seems that the buy it now price may be a little high.

What would you say is a fair price? 

I am no expert in cordovan, can you see anything in these that would make you not purchase them?


----------



## Pentheos

Dmontez said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/221182638198?redirect=mobile
> 
> I found these Alden NST cordovan on eBay and am in talks with the current owner about the price. It seems that the buy it now price may be a little high.
> 
> What would you say is a fair price?
> 
> I am no expert in cordovan, can you see anything in these that would make you not purchase them?


Very nice. But $610 is far too close to retail for my tastes. My last two Ebay shell cordovan purchases are a pair of AE Graysons for $45 and AE Leeds for $75, both on their original soles with no blemishes.


----------



## dkoernert

Pentheos said:


> Very nice. But $610 is far too close to retail for my tastes. My last two Ebay shell cordovan purchases are a pair of AE Graysons for $45 and AE Leeds for $75, both on their original soles with no blemishes.


+1, retail is just shy of $700, correct? I'm certainly no expert, but something more along the lines of $500 would appeal more to me.


----------



## Dmontez

Pentheos said:


> Very nice. But $610 is far too close to retail for my tastes. My last two Ebay shell cordovan purchases are a pair of AE Graysons for $45 and AE Leeds for $75, both on their original soles with no blemishes.


I've never been able to find cordovan for under 200.00 on eBay... I was thinking 450.00. They seem to be fairly new and I believe they are available at the shoe mart for either 695 or 720.00


----------



## Pentheos

dkoernert said:


> +1, retail is just shy of $700, correct? I'm certainly no expert, but something more along the lines of $500 would appeal more to me.


Yes, $691 on their website, unless that pair is a special order in that color cordovan. I don't really follow what Alden does, as I grew up in Wisconsin, and I like to support Allen Edmonds since they're in my home state.

Once a seller knows they have shell cordovan, the price doubles or triples. The trick is to find shell not advertised as such. Even in my rare size (12.5EE/13EEE), I'm able to acquire a few pair a year on the super cheap.


----------



## Pentheos

Dmontez said:


> I've never been able to find cordovan for under 200.00 on eBay... I was thinking 450.00. They seem to be fairly new and I believe they are available at the shoe mart for either 695 or 720.00


4 hours left, $99 starting bid, close to your size?


----------



## Pentheos

Dmontez said:


> I've never been able to find cordovan for under 200.00 on eBay... I was thinking 450.00. They seem to be fairly new and I believe they are available at the shoe mart for either 695 or 720.00


Or these:


----------



## Pentheos

Dmontez said:


> I've never been able to find cordovan for under 200.00 on eBay... I was thinking 450.00. They seem to be fairly new and I believe they are available at the shoe mart for either 695 or 720.00


Or these:


----------



## dkoernert

I think the reason the price is so high is the color. There usually isn't much whiskey shell on Ebay, at least when I have looked for it. Sellers seem to know that too.


----------



## Pentheos

dkoernert said:


> I think the reason the price is so high is the color. There usually isn't much whiskey shell on Ebay, at least when I have looked for it. Sellers seem to know that too.


In that case, I'd rather pay 100% of retail for a new product than 90% of retail for a used product.


----------



## dkoernert

Pentheos said:


> In that case, I'd rather pay 100% of retail for a new product than 90% of retail for a used product.


100% agree.


----------



## Dmontez

Pentheos said:


> Or these:


Pentheos, I am watching those MacNeil but I suspect that they will shoot up to around 250.00 they always do.

I will probably try and purchase the Randolph's in a few hours..
Those seem like a great deal


----------



## Sgpearl

Pentheos said:


> My last two Ebay shell cordovan purchases are a pair of AE Graysons for $45 and AE Leeds for $75, both on their original soles with no blemishes.


I just got a pair of J&M Crown Aristocraft loafers for $47 shipped. Advertised as shell and confirmed as such here (thank you, AAAC!) Pics on previous page.

Now looking for black wingtips in 9 1/2 D. If anyone sees an unmarked pair, please let me know. The vintage Florsheims seem to go for $150 plus.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Yes, they do look like shell to me. On top of that, the soles are show very little wear. Could they have been resoled?


----------



## Tilton

91% sure these are calf. Really strangely creased calf.


----------



## Tilton

These, I think look like shell. Luster, depth, and creasing seem right.


----------



## Pentheos

Neither of the last two are shell, I think.


----------



## wacolo

Tilton said:


> 91% sure these are calf. Really strangely creased calf.


Pretty sure the are AE Polos, which are CG. At any rate I would say no.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I'm quite confident that these last 2 pairs are corrected grain leather, which explains why they crease somewhat like shell but with more pronounced edges.


----------



## tonylumpkin

wacolo said:


> Pretty sure the are AE Polos, which are CG. At any rate I would say no.


AE has made Polos in shell, but I agree that his pair is CG.


----------



## Shiny

Any Stuart McQuire experts here? I know these are shell cause they say so on the bottom. However, can someone tell me whether these are size 6.5 based on the 465 serial numbers (?). They are small, but I'm a 9.5 so I can't gauge. The other #s are "985009 J" . Those are the only # markings on the shoes


----------



## 127.72 MHz

As has been mentioned post #1302 are corrected grain Sheltons. (I believe I can just make out the embossed Allen Edmonds) 

To the best of my knowledge Allen Edmonds has quit marketing correcting grain shoes. (If not they should.)


----------



## The Deacon

This is an interior shot from the pair of shell cordovan burgandy Mcguire wingtips that I wore 5 years ago and have since sold. I hope it helps.


Shiny said:


> Any Stuart McQuire experts here? I know these are shell cause they say so on the bottom. However, can someone tell me whether these are size 6.5 based on the 465 serial numbers (?). They are small, but I'm a 9.5 so I can't gauge. The other #s are "985009 J" . Those are the only # markings on the shoes


----------



## Shiny

Thanks, Deacon. On the other hand, I don't know what Photobucket did with my pix.


----------



## Trevor

Picked these up thrifting, are they both shell?

Footjoy Classics (No Spikes) Made in USA


















AE Lloyd - I noticed the black was coming off in a few places?


----------



## tonylumpkin

^^^Both are nice shoes, but neither is shell.


----------



## Pentheos

No sir, no shell there.


----------



## Trevor

It threw me off how shiny they were. Thanks Guys, I really appreciate the help


----------



## Acme

Trevor said:


> It threw me off how shiny they were. Thanks Guys, I really appreciate the help


The creases on the toes of both pairs of shoes (lots of little microcreases) indicated those shoes are calf. Shell shoes have large ripples, just scroll through a few pages of this thread for examples of what a shell crease looks like. Otherwise, nice shoes, and happy hunting!


----------



## straw sandals

Alright, gents, did I get a good deal?


----------



## danielm

^i was bidding on those too. I think shell. I would congratulate you, but I'm crazy jealous at the moment.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Rather odd: the picture of the sole is clearly a recrafted AE.


----------



## zbix

straw sandals said:


> Alright, gents, did I get a good deal?


The soles are a head scratcher, but the model number on the inside, 763, is consistent with the Alden for BB high-vamp LHS in #8 shell.


----------



## tonylumpkin

I'll be interested to see what you get. He looks to be a highly reputable seller, but those soles and heels don't go with the uppers. And I can't read the numbers, but they appear to be lined, which BB LHSs wouldn't be. Let us know when you get them. The upper do look to be shell though.


----------



## Clay J

These are definitely shell, but are they too far gone? The lightened grainy areas are scary to me.


----------



## tocohillsguy

Clay J said:


> These are definitely shell, but are they too far gone? The lightened grainy areas are scary to me.


I don't consider myself a Cordovan expert, but I purchased some AE Leeds that had a similar grainy area on one of the shoes. I sent them in to AE for refinishing and when they came back all of the grainy areas were gone. I'm thinking a treatment with safphir cordovan cream shoe polish will restore those areas. If those were my size (and I didn't already own the Leeds) I'd be all over that auction.


----------



## Sgpearl

Just wanted to post pics of an old pair that I'm trying to bring back to life. Here's what they looked like when I got them, covered in layer upon layer of very dark, old polish:










I know now that I should have used only the brush to clean them, but I got impatient. I scraped some of the polish off with a knife, used Saphir Reno'Mat, rubbed with denim, and brushed. A lot. Then I used Saphir Dubbin Graisse and Renovateur. And brushed a lot more. One of the shoes has gotten more attention than the other. Here's how it looks now:



















I'm hoping they'll improve with more brushing. I also bought a deer bone on the off chance that the juju works. And I'm considering switching from the Renovateur to Venetian Cream. Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## straw sandals

Nice work! Let me know how the deer bone works for you. I've been thinking about buying one, but they ain't cheap!


----------



## Sgpearl

straw sandals said:


> Nice work! Let me know how the deer bone works for you. I've been thinking about buying one, but they ain't cheap!


Thanks. I'm a little disappointed that I can't get more of a shine out of them and concerned that I may have messed them up with the knife, graisse, and renovateur.

Anyway, regarding the bone, I didn't want to spend $30 or $40 on one, so I bought one on ebay for $5. Nothing fancy, just a deer's leg bone:










Now I'm wondering if I need to do anything special to it, like sand down any abrasions, before trying to use it. Also, I've read variously that one should rub it on the creases specifically, use it to rub conditioner or polish into the entire shoe, or just give it to the dog because it has no value whatsoever. Anyone here have thoughts on that?

Thanks again.


----------



## frosejr

Excellent video from A Suitable Wardrobe on polishing shell, that includes use of a deer bone.






Francis


----------



## Dr. D

You may want to use Saphir Renomat to strip off all the wax buildup and then use Renovateur to moisturize the shell once it has been stripped and cleaned. I think Renovateur is pretty much interchangable with Venetian cream and is a good thing to use on older shell that may be drying out.

https://www.hangerproject.com/saphir-reno-mat-cleaner.html#.UTfr-TfzKHc


----------



## Sgpearl

Sorry for hijacking the thread with my restoration posts. Back to our regular programing. Are these shell? I thought so when I bought them online, but now I think not.


----------



## Sgpearl

^ Here's the way they looked online:


----------



## frosejr

Sgpearl said:


> Sorry for hijacking the thread with my restoration posts. Back to our regular programing. Are these shell? I thought so when I bought them online, but now I think not.


^^^not shell


----------



## Orgetorix

Definitely not.


----------



## CMDC

Right. Not shell. The original pix would have had me on the fence so I don't think you made an unreasonable guess--not knowing what the listing said.


----------



## Sgpearl

CMDC said:


> Right. Not shell. The original pix would have had me on the fence so I don't think you made an unreasonable guess--not knowing what the listing said.


Thanks all. The seller did not list them as shell, but the picture looked close enough that Acme thought they might be. I got them for $30 shipped, so I figured they were worth a shot. They're size 9.5 EEE if anyone here wants them for the cost of shipping. I'm assuming not and will offer them on the exchange.

Steve


----------



## Pentheos

Sgpearl said:


> Thanks all. The seller did not list them as shell, but the picture looked close enough that Acme thought they might be. I got them for $30 shipped, so I figured they were worth a shot. They're size 9.5 EEE if anyone here wants them for the cost of shipping. I'm assuming not and will offer them on the exchange.
> 
> Steve


Steve, do you own any shell yet?


----------



## Sgpearl

Pentheos said:


> Steve, do you own any shell yet?


I have one pair that I posted about on the previous page and am looking for more.


----------



## tuckspub

I hope I purchased the right brand and style, I knew when I saw them that I had seen them referenced numerous times. Are they or aren't they, purchased in 1998, they even had the receipt tucked inside, $238. Salvation Army find, the right length but unfortunately way to narrow, I would have to employ a Chinese foot wrapper in order to get my feet inside. I have sold a fair bit on Ebay, but not sure the best way to proceed, probably 11 AA is an unusual size.
https://s1282.beta.photobucket.com/...rt=3&o=1&_suid=136279310898207817505565197831


----------



## wacolo

tuckspub said:


> I hope I purchased the right brand and style, I knew when I saw them that I had seen them referenced numerous times. Are they or aren't they, purchased in 1998, they even had the receipt tucked inside, $238. Salvation Army find, the right length but unfortunately way to narrow, I would have to employ a Chinese foot wrapper in order to get my feet inside. I have sold a fair bit on Ebay, but not sure the best way to proceed, probably 11 AA is an unusual size.
> https://s1282.beta.photobucket.com/...rt=3&o=1&_suid=136279310898207817505565197831


Fine shoes, but they are not shell. Sorry.


----------



## CMDC

Not shell. The microcreasing in the last picture is the clear giveaway. Although there are shell Park Aves, they aren't as common as ptbs and longwings.


----------



## tuckspub

AWWW! Oh well, the reciept says Park Avenue BRG Stock number 5675, can you give me a lead on describing them for Ebay. What is ptbs?


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Plain Toe Bluchers. 

You can describe them as Allen Edmonds "Park Avenue" captors, color, size, condition, etc. Make sure to post pics of the soles, the back of the heels and the interiors.

Good luck!


----------



## Sgpearl

Looks like shell to me, and I'm sure they'll clean up nicely. I'm not going to buy them, so have at em. $91 BIN:


----------



## frosejr

^^^I'd bet shell.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Yes to shell, but they seem to be in rough shape.


----------



## Dmontez

I am considering picking these up for 20.00 shipped. Would you say these are too far gone to do a re-crafting? I would say these are shell, but I could be wrong. What would you do with these?


----------



## Pentheos

Dmontez said:


> I am considering picking these up for 20.00 shipped. Would you say these are too far gone to do a re-crafting? I would say these are shell, but I could be wrong. What would you do with these?
> 
> View attachment 7210
> View attachment 7211


Do it. Have them resoled, and you'll have beaters for the rest of your life.


----------



## Sgpearl

Yes they look like shell, but they're in even worse shape than the ones I posted!


----------



## Sgpearl

Pentheos said:


> Do it. Have them resoled, and you'll have beaters for the rest of your life.


Point well taken. :smile:


----------



## es9

How about these?


----------



## tocohillsguy

es9 said:


> How about these?


Clearly Shell. With appropriate care those should come out looking good.


----------



## DawgBoned37

Can someone provide a list of shoe makers who use shell cordovan? I'd like to pick up an "unmarked" pair of shells on eBay. I'm not sure how to search other than by brand. Thanks!


----------



## es9

tocohillsguy said:


> Clearly Shell. With appropriate care those should come out looking good.


What specifically do you recommend?


----------



## es9

Quick, separate question. I've been looking at some horween shell watch bands and wallets and it seems like the shell can vary greatly in thickness. Some of the wallets seem to be made of one layer of very thick shell while others look thinner and include a lining. 

Is horween shell -- or other shell -- shaved to different thicknesses? And if so, is one necessarily better, stronger, etc?


----------



## Sgpearl

These look like the real deal to me. Agreed?


----------



## Pentheos

Absolutely shell.


----------



## Orgetorix

No doubt about it.


----------



## Sgpearl

That's good because I just bought em!


----------



## Sgpearl

My compulsive buying habits really kicked in over the weekend, and I bought these as well. They look like shell to me, but Cardinals5 doesn't have the AE Polo or this model # on his shell guide. Do you agree these are shell?


----------



## Orgetorix

Yep, those are shell.


----------



## es9

Shell?


----------



## Bandit44

es9 said:


> Shell?


Shell


----------



## Sgpearl

Agreed. Nice pick-up.


----------



## Sgpearl

Advertised as AE Boulevard shell cordovan, but I don't think so. What say you?


----------



## trgolf

Nope!


----------



## Pentheos

Lots of Ebay sellers will advertise their shoes as shell cordovan when they really are anything but. Watch out. That said, how could you think those really are shell? (Nice shoes though.)


----------



## Sgpearl

Pentheos said:


> That said, how could you think those really are shell?


I know, I'm a total jack-ass. I'm sorry. This thread is so fun, and I hate it when there's nothing posted here. I'll stop. :tongue2:


----------



## tonylumpkin

Nowhere near shell, but one of the nicest pairs of Allen Edmonds I've seen (at least in pictures). Did you buy them?


----------



## Sgpearl

No, but now that you mention it, maybe I should. :smile:


----------



## copperback

Are these AE MacNeils shell?

The model number says 9147 which is on Cardinals5's list of shell numbers for AE MacNeil. The roll of the leather and the crimping of the lace holes also say shell but the lack of a dovetail heel makes me hesitant since I've never seen AE shells without dovetail heels. Thanks!

EDIT: These are not shell. According to the 1998 AE catalogue, model #9147 is not shell but 'Burgundy Polished Cobbler' or corrected grain leather. All references in the old AE catalogues for model number 9147 is for the same polished cobbler leather. I don't think 9147 has ever been used to mark shell cordovan MacNeils.


----------



## dkoernert

Looks like shell to me. I thought I saw some microcreasing on the left shoe but I think its just the photos.


----------



## frosejr

^^ definitely not. Your research is right on target.


----------



## DawgBoned37

This is the classic difference between "Cordovan" being used to mean a burgundy color, rather than the type of leather. If you check the title of the eBay listing, it doesn't mention "shell" at all.


----------



## albuhhh

What do you guys think? The patina seems right to me, and I'm seeing some of the signs of puffiness around lacing, but i just cant tell about the toe creasing. It seems to be rolling the right way, but I cant tell if there is just the slightest bit of microcreasing around the right toe box, or if it's wax buildup...


----------



## DawgBoned37

Those look like shell to me. The 5th picture is the only worry I would have because of the appearance of creasing on the right shoe (left side of pic)... But the depth of color in the leather makes me think that are shell.


----------



## firedancer

^^ I'm leaning towards corrected Grain on those.


----------



## Sgpearl

firedancer: can you say why you're thinking CG? I wouldn't have thought so, with the color variation in those, but you likely have more expertise than I do. They look shell to me, other than the right toe in the fourth pic, as the OP said. Possible that it is just built up polish?


----------



## firedancer

Sgpearl said:


> firedancer: can you say why you're thinking CG? I wouldn't have thought so, with the color variation in those, but you likely have more expertise than I do. They look shell to me, other than the right toe in the fourth pic, as the OP said. Possible that it is just built up polish?


It could be polish.

To my eye they look a little flat to be shell.

The coloring is a just off, almost too red.

The creases are strange indeed, and kind of in the wrong places.

Finally, without looking at the soles I can't be sure but they appear to be plasticky looking.

But overall they just seem wrong to me.

Of course, I've been wrong before but I would take the gamble.


----------



## firedancer

firedancer said:


> It could be polish.
> 
> To my eye they look a little flat to be shell.
> 
> The coloring is a just off, almost too red.
> 
> The creases are strange indeed, and kind of in the wrong places.
> 
> Finally, without looking at the soles I can't be sure but they appear to be plasticky looking.
> 
> But overall they just seem wrong to me.
> 
> Of course, I've been wrong before but I would take the gamble.


* wouldn't


----------



## albuhhh

Soles are leather... something does seem to be off with the creasing, but the variations in color got me hopeful - the heel counter seemed to have a splotchiness to it that I haven't seen in CG, but hell, it could just be a bad dye job...


----------



## Orgetorix

100% shell.

Even shell can occasionally develop ripples that look like microcreasing.

Case in point:


----------



## dkoernert

Took a chance on these for $25 on the 'Bay, they were described as burnished calf. They looked like shell to me, and cards model # guide confirms 8287 is shell, did I get it right?


----------



## fastfiat81

dkoernert said:


> Took a chance on these for $25 on the 'Bay, they were described as burnished calf. They looked like shell to me, and cards model # guide confirms 8287 is shell, did I get it right?
> 
> They are indeed shell. I have to say I asked the seller if the right shoe had a crack in it. It looked like it from the photo. He replied affimative. :frown:


----------



## dkoernert

I did see that, but I grabbed them anyway for beater purposes.


----------



## fastfiat81

Ah perfect!! :cool2:


----------



## Sgpearl

Can anything be done with a crack in shell? Is a patch over the top the only option?


----------



## firedancer

Sgpearl said:


> Can anything be done with a crack in shell? Is a patch over the top the only option?


I'm afraid not. It's also my experience that once it's cracked there are more to come.


----------



## dbhdbhdbh

Has anyone tried Klucel G? It is marketed as useful for deteriorating leather, including cracking and powdering. Talas sells it for conservation purposes, so I have no idea whether it would work on something that is being used and worked like shoes.

"Klucel G is a leather consolident that comes in a powder form. When mixed with denatured or isopropyl alcohol, it forms a gel which is used to treat leather that is starting to deteriorate from red rot or leather that is becoming powdery. Klucel G leaves a permanent flexible webbing throughout the leather. Used by museums in leather conservation. Excellent for treating and repairing deteriorating book bindings, antique leather articles and older saddles, tack, etc."


https://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18793


----------



## dkoernert

I'm sure its not the best for the leather, but I have had really good success fixing cracks with Loctite Gel.


----------



## rwaldron

This one is actually about a new product: 

it says "Cordovan" for the color, but I can't tell what the material is (though the price tends to point toward shell)


----------



## Orgetorix

Yes, Marlows are shell. It's Ralph's name for almost all his shell models, including shortwings, PTBs, tassels, and pennies at least. Dark brown/cognac Horween shell.


----------



## Sgpearl

dbhdbhdbh said:


> Has anyone tried Klucel G? It is marketed as useful for deteriorating leather, including cracking and powdering. Talas sells it for conservation purposes, so I have no idea whether it would work on something that is being used and worked like shoes.


Thanks for the suggestion. I just ordered some to try on a pair of vintage shell longwings that have a substantial crack. I will start a new thread with pics once I get the product.


----------



## mikeh

Sgpearl said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I just ordered some to try on a pair of vintage shell longwings that have a substantial crack. I will start a new thread with pics once I get the product.


Post (or PM) a link once you start that thread. I'm very curious, having a pair of longwings that are great except for a single crack.


----------



## DawgBoned37

I have a fair of vintage Florsheim Longwings that I know are shell. However, where the shoe flexes, the edges of the leather seem to be wearing out. I'm not sure if this is the actual leather wearing out or an accumulation of product that has been used on the shoes previously. I've done my best to remove all polish from the shoes. Please check out the pics and let me know what you think I should do.


----------



## Bandit44

^ Hard to tell here. As you said, flex points are going to wear more than the rest of the shoe, but I'm not sure this is evidence they are wearing out. If the wear points seem dry/brittle, apply Venetian creme over a few weeks to hopefully restore the suppleness.


----------



## MWhisler

These look pretty nice, any 11 D wearers out there?


----------



## The Deacon

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nettleton-Mens-Wing-Tip-Oxford-Shoes-Size-12-/221217317331?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=vT0%252BJgdGa4YbYKQ0VJ1VG9g5gaU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc













The pregnant lace holes are usually the tip off for me, but not sure. I'll see in a few days I guess.


----------



## Pentheos

The Deacon said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nettleton-Mens-Wing-Tip-Oxford-Shoes-Size-12-/221217317331?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=vT0%252BJgdGa4YbYKQ0VJ1VG9g5gaU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
> View attachment 7576
> 
> View attachment 7577
> The pregnant lace holes are usually the tip off for me, but not sure. I'll see in a few days I guess.


Sorry, not shell. Creases are perfectly visible.


----------



## The Deacon

albuhhh said:


> What do you guys think? The patina seems right to me, and I'm seeing some of the signs of puffiness around lacing, but i just cant tell about the toe creasing. It seems to be rolling the right way, but I cant tell if there is just the slightest bit of microcreasing around the right toe box, or if it's wax buildup...


_I am very late to this party but these are absolutely shell cordovan. I've had many pairs of Bostonian and J&M wingtips that were identical with same issues. The blunted edges of the broguing and blunted punch holes are a tell tale sign that does not happen with corrrected grain or calf. these are great pics and make it easy. The old polish is deceptive making it look like microcreasing on vamp._


----------



## The Deacon

Pentheos said:


> Sorry, not shell. Creases are perfectly visible.


Agreed, I bought them after looking at pics on cell phone, I was able to see the creasing on my desk top monitor later on. Was holding out hope. Price was low enough to probably flip them if they don't work for me.


----------



## afm

*DNA test for shell?*



The Deacon said:


> Agreed, I bought them after looking at pics on cell phone, I was able to see the creasing on my desk top monitor later on. Was holding out hope. Price was low enough to probably flip them if they don't work for me.


That sorted out the sheep from the goats (sorry, the cows from the horses) in the supermarket lasagne over here in the UK!


----------



## es9

If anyone has them, I'm dying for a pair of vintage shell Florsheim LWBs in a 10.5 E...


----------



## MWhisler

Keep an eye out on Ebay, they come around once in a while. Here's a 10E in nice shape with original soles, can you squeeze into them?


----------



## DawgBoned37

es9 said:


> If anyone has them, I'm dying for a pair of vintage shell Florsheim LWBs in a 10.5 E...


They sell on ebay all the time. I was recently outbid on a pair of 11's with 3 seconds left! Final sale price was only $52!


----------



## Sgpearl

DawgBoned37 said:


> They sell on ebay all the time. I was recently outbid on a pair of 11's with 3 seconds left! Final sale price was only $52!


Dawgboned (and I really hope you're not):

You may want to use a sniper service. You set your max, and it does the bidding for you. I use gixen.com and always have good results. Much better than losing out when I would have paid more or getting caught up in bidding on something I don't care about, which I have done many, many times. putthison.com has a good article here about ebay shopping, including the recommendation to use a sniper.

All the best and happy hunting.


----------



## Barnavelt

I picked up these burgundy gunboats today. Not my size but I still bought 'em, and they even had the shoe trees. Anyway, I don't see much in the way of micro creases and the lace eyelets do seem to have a puffy appearance. What say you?


----------



## Pentheos

Yes, definitely shell. Size?
​


----------



## Sgpearl

Agreed. Very nice.


----------



## frosejr

Barnavelt said:


>


To paraphrase Seinfeld, they're shell and they're FANTASTIC.


----------



## The Deacon

Barnavelt said:


> I picked up these burgundy gunboats today. Not my size but I still bought 'em, and they even had the shoe trees. Anyway, I don't see much in the way of micro creases and the lace eyelets do seem to have a puffy appearance. What say you?


Identical toe brogueing as the Alden 975 Color #8 wingtips I am wearing right now! Nice shells!


----------



## Barnavelt

#8 eh? They always looked more "blueish" online (I have never seen the color 8 in person.) I guess the aginghas brought out more of the maroon? Or are you just saying they are same 975 model, different color? I am unsure of the size as they have only the model number and "John Dougherty" printed inside. I assume they were custom at the time. I found some other shoes in the 8-9.5 range and I think they are same owner. Width is around 4.5 at the widest point, around11.5 length. I am a 10-10.5 and while I can cram my foot into them I would not be able to comfortably wear them.


----------



## Sgpearl

I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would be happy to pick them up from you, including me!


----------



## The Deacon

The Deacon said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nettleton-Mens-Wing-Tip-Oxford-Shoes-Size-12-/221217317331?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=vT0%252BJgdGa4YbYKQ0VJ1VG9g5gaU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
> View attachment 7576
> 
> View attachment 7577
> The pregnant lace holes are usually the tip off for me, but not sure. I'll see in a few days I guess.


Fooled by the dreaded CORFAM! Second time in my ebay history. These will be great for rainy days...must sell too narrow, fit like a 12D Aberdeen.


----------



## DawgBoned37

The Deacon said:


> Fooled by the dreaded CORFAM! Second time in my ebay history. These will be great for rainy days...must sell too narrow, fit like a 12D Aberdeen.


CORFAM?


----------



## firedancer

DawgBoned37 said:


> CORFAM?


Think plastic. A synthetic pleather that wears like a sauna, or so I've heard. My feet are allergic


----------



## firedancer

https://brandfailures.blogspot.com/2006/11/brand-idea-failures-corfam.html?m=1


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Whether considered a success of failure, they sold a whole bunch of corfam shoes within the military communities. Never could understand the attraction of wrapping ones feet in plastic(?)! Perhaps that explains my aversion to patent leather shoes as a formal wear option? :icon_scratch:


----------



## The Deacon

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...9RdqfDziEUSxvqDyJgx660w&bvm=bv.45921128,d.dmQ

I guessed that they are shell, pulled the trigger upon waking up to the alert, did I mess up again?!!


----------



## Pentheos

The Deacon said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=brooks%20brothers%20alden%20shoes%20sz%2012e%20nice!!!&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2FBROOKS-BROTHERS-ALDEN-SHOES-SZ-12E-NICE-%2F230971458395%3Fpt%3DUS_Men_s_Shoes%26hash%3Ditem35c6f8c35b%26ssPageName%3DRSS%3AB%3ASHOP%3AUS%3A101&ei=bYGCUbSPGsaQ0QG864CIDw&usg=AFQjCNGxxrZ9RdqfDziEUSxvqDyJgx660w&bvm=bv.45921128,d.dmQ
> 
> I guessed that they are shell, pulled the trigger upon waking up to the alert, did I mess up again?!!


 No sir. Nice purchase.


----------



## conductor

This happened to me a couple years ago, Deacon. I thought the seller missed they were shell. I was wrong. They've sat on my shoe rack for two years now. Perhaps it is time to donate them.



The Deacon said:


> Fooled by the dreaded CORFAM! Second time in my ebay history. These will be great for rainy days...must sell too narrow, fit like a 12D Aberdeen.


----------



## Cardinals5

The Deacon said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=brooks%20brothers%20alden%20shoes%20sz%2012e%20nice!!!&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2FBROOKS-BROTHERS-ALDEN-SHOES-SZ-12E-NICE-%2F230971458395%3Fpt%3DUS_Men_s_Shoes%26hash%3Ditem35c6f8c35b%26ssPageName%3DRSS%3AB%3ASHOP%3AUS%3A101&ei=bYGCUbSPGsaQ0QG864CIDw&usg=AFQjCNGxxrZ9RdqfDziEUSxvqDyJgx660w&bvm=bv.45921128,d.dmQ
> 
> I guessed that they are shell, pulled the trigger upon waking up to the alert, did I mess up again?!!


Yes, those are shell.


----------



## balla25

I hope some of you gents are able to chime in on the brown pair of shoes in this listing on the bay -

Shell or not shell?


----------



## Pentheos

balla25 said:


> I hope some of you gents are able to chime in on the brown pair of shoes in this listing on the bay -
> 
> Shell or not shell?


 Yes, seem that way.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Balla25, did you win the auction? Pentheos is right, the brown pair is shell.


----------



## balla25

Barrister, yes I took the risk on these not knowing the brand or if indeed the brown pair was shell. Was this a good deal?


----------



## frosejr

balla25 said:


> Barrister, yes I took the risk on these not knowing the brand or if indeed the brown pair was shell. Was this a good deal?


If the shell is not cracked and they fit you, then killer deal!


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

As frosejr said, depending what their actual condition is, $52 for 2 pairs of shoes is quite reasonable.


----------



## AnthonyFuller

The description doesn't say shell specifically, but only Cordovan:



> Crafted by Allen Edmonds, this stylish pair of cordovan cap toe oxford shoes simply create an awesome impression. These shoes have the most outstanding patina we have seen on a pair of cordovans; resembles an outstanding black cherry color; love these shoes!


I think that they are not shell, but I'm not an expert. The 5875 leads me to believe it is a standard Park Ave. Somewhat happy at the price (even with recraft) in my size for these, but would be ecstatic if they were really shell.


----------



## frosejr

^^Not shell. I would return these. You can't recraft these, and my understanding is that half-soles compromise the structure of the shoe, because of how the cobbler cuts the soles to put the halfs on. I think you can do much better than this deal if you keep looking.


----------



## Pentheos

AnthonyFuller said:


> The description doesn't say shell specifically, but only Cordovan:
> 
> I think that they are not shell, but I'm not an expert. The 5875 leads me to believe it is a standard Park Ave. Somewhat happy at the price (even with recraft) in my size for these, but would be ecstatic if they were really shell.


If you like them, fine, but they're not shell and they're not even a good deal for the half-sole recraft.


----------



## Pentheos

Makes me weep:


----------



## ArtVandalay

I just saw those. Was thinking about grabbing them. Not your size?


----------



## Pentheos

ArtVandalay said:


> I just saw those. Was thinking about grabbing them. Not your size?


You see the "repair" around the top of the heel? The previous occupant did not own a shoe horn, and must have damaged the tops, which were then "fixed" by adding a piece of leather of a different color. Hideous.


----------



## ArtVandalay

Oh wow. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## TradThrifter

^They certainly do appear to be shell. Nice find


----------



## Sgpearl

Agreed. Well done. And thank you for the pocket square, Wacolo. I got it yesterday. :icon_smile:


----------



## wacolo

Sgpearl said:


> Agreed. Well done. And thank you for the pocket square, Wacolo. I got it yesterday. :icon_smile:


Glad you like it! And thank you!


----------



## es9

Just picked up and received (woot!) a pair of vintage florsheim imperial shell longwings. They look beautiful, except for might be one small crack along the top of the shoe, which was not advertised. I really don't care as long as the crack won't expand, but I didn't exactly get a steal so if they are going to fall apart, I will return.

Thoughts? Will it expand?

Thanks!


----------



## balla25

es9 said:


> Just picked up and received (woot!) a pair of vintage florsheim imperial shell longwings. They look beautiful, except for might be one small crack along the top of the shoe, which was not advertised. I really don't care as long as the crack won't expand, but I didn't exactly get a steal so if they are going to fall apart, I will return.
> 
> Thoughts? Will it expand?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/erb76d
> 
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/eqeRsK


The crack appears small in the pics, does it go all the way through the vamp? My experience is that once shell is cracked you are limited in what you can do to repair it. Your only hope is to minimize further damage or improve the overall appearance of the shoe to detract attention from the problem. As such, you may want to consider Saphir Renovateur or Lexol Conditioner to improve the appearance of the crack and the overall shoe. There are some folks who recommend hot deer bone or even a hot spoon to repair damage to shell, neither of which I have actually tried. I'd stick with reconditioning the shoe in hopes of preventing further damage or simply returning them if the crack really bothers you.


----------



## es9

The crack appears to be on the surface only... not all the way through the vamp.

I'm quite happy with the appearance--vintage shoes aren't going to be perfect--but I want to make sure the crack won't expand into something more significant.

I haven't had much luck with the spoon technique in the past, but I've only tried it on cracks that are more significant...



balla25 said:


> The crack appears small in the pics, does it go all the way through the vamp? My experience is that once shell is cracked you are limited in what you can do to repair it. Your only hope is to minimize further damage or improve the overall appearance of the shoe to detract attention from the problem. As such, you may want to consider Saphir Renovateur or Lexol Conditioner to improve the appearance of the crack and the overall shoe. There are some folks who recommend hot deer bone or even a hot spoon to repair damage to shell, neither of which I have actually tried. I'd stick with reconditioning the shoe in hopes of preventing further damage or simply returning them if the crack really bothers you.


----------



## balla25

Well, unless someone knows something I don't (which is completely possible) I don't think there is any way or method of guaranteeing the crack will not expand. The actual expansion of the crack will depend on how often you wear the shoes, how tough you are on them, the condition of the shoe (dry rot), the weather (heat, rain), etc.


----------



## es9

Thanks--any other thoughts out there?

I definitely wear my shoes, but I do take very good care of them... regular brushing, shining, shoe trees, etc.



balla25 said:


> Well, unless someone knows something I don't (which is completely possible) I don't think there is any way or method of guaranteeing the crack will not expand. The actual expansion of the crack will depend on how often you wear the shoes, how tough you are on them, the condition of the shoe (dry rot), the weather (heat, rain), etc.


----------



## Orgetorix

To me that looks more like a ding from a sharp object or something than the type of crack that shows up from dryness and wear. Those kinds of cracks show up at stress points, and that's too far in the middle of the vamp to be a stress point. Shells, longwings especially, are prone to cracking at the sides of the vamp near where the broguing is, but not (usually) in that location. So, if I'm right, then I'd say there's probably not a huge risk of the crack getting much bigger. But I could be wrong.


----------



## eagle2250

^^+1.
Orgetorix has hit the nail on the head. Don't worry yourself about that tiny gouge!


----------



## Sgpearl

The heels are a little beat up, but they look like shell to me. Agreed?


----------



## eagle2250

^^Given the condition of the linings (dry, cracked, torn, deconstructing/crumbling) and I assume the insoles, of those shoes, it would seem that they are pretty worn out. The creasing across the vamp certainly appears to be consistent with shell cordovan, but if the guts of the shoes is worn out, does it matter? I have a 30 yer old pair of AE #8 shell Leeds that AE has advised me cannot be recrafted any additional times because of the drying and cracking of the lining and the cracking that is beginning in the insoles.


----------



## Sgpearl

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Given the condition of the linings (dry, cracked, torn, deconstructing/crumbling) and I assume the insoles, of those shoes, it would seem that they are pretty worn out. The creasing across the vamp certainly appears to be consistent with shell cordovan, but if the guts of the shoes is worn out, does it matter? I have a 30 yer old pair of AE #8 shell Leeds that AE has advised me cannot be recrafted any additional times because of the drying and cracking of the lining and the cracking that is beginning in the insoles.


Agreed. Even though the look pretty rough inside and at the back, the uppers look pretty decent, and I was thinking about using them for a DIY project, like the shell watch band that someone posted about recently.


----------



## percy

Says cordovan, but not shell in title, Looks like shell, but it is also pretty badly damaged, so may not be worth it anyway.


----------



## Tilton

Shell. Those chew marks will never come out, though.


----------



## es9

I was all set to celebrate when I discovered what is definitely a very real (.5-1cm) crack where the eyelets are sewn onto the vamp. Back to the drawing board!



Orgetorix said:


> To me that looks more like a ding from a sharp object or something than the type of crack that shows up from dryness and wear. Those kinds of cracks show up at stress points, and that's too far in the middle of the vamp to be a stress point. Shells, longwings especially, are prone to cracking at the sides of the vamp near where the broguing is, but not (usually) in that location. So, if I'm right, then I'd say there's probably not a huge risk of the crack getting much bigger. But I could be wrong.


----------



## percy

Looks like shell,but odd size and not a huge deal unless unless he takes a lower offer.


----------



## percy

almost positive its shell.


----------



## tonylumpkin

They are.



percy said:


> almost positive its shell.


----------



## Sgpearl

Agreed. Good starting price for Alden shell, too.


----------



## percy




----------



## percy




----------



## percy




----------



## percy




----------



## wacolo

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes to all of the above. Nice work :icon_smile:


----------



## frosejr

^^^^agreed, all are shell, great eyes!!


----------



## Sgpearl

Well done, Percy. You see any 9.5 shell boots out there?


----------



## Sgpearl

Looks like shell to me. Agreed?


----------



## conductor

Yup - looks like the Alden for BB model to me as well.


----------



## es9

Shell??



...and is that a crease on the tip of the right toe????


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Those are shell. They're the older "Chukka" model from AE.


----------



## es9

Thanks!! Know the color? Also, does that look like weird creasing on the actual toe box/at the tip? ... esp right shoe.



Cardinals5 said:


> ^^ Those are shell. They're the older "Chukka" model from AE.


----------



## Sgpearl

Agreed. Nice purchase for $90.


----------



## Cardinals5

es9 said:


> Thanks!! Know the color? Also, does that look like weird creasing on the actual toe box/at the tip? ... esp right shoe.


They were a lighter version of AE's burgundy cordovan called "Black Cherry Shell Cordovan" used frequently in the mid-1990s. I don't notice anything strange about the toe box, but we are talking about 15-18 year old shoes that have seen plenty of wear (heels need immediate replacing, but you're probably better off getting them recrafted right away).


----------



## es9

The arrived and are absolutely awesome! Really cool color. Some brushing and a nice coat of venetian really brought them to life. 

They do, however, seem to have a smallish crease on the actual toe box (see second pic). It seems like the underlying structure may be creased, although the actual leather seems pretty solid/resilient. 

Anything I can do about this?


----------



## frosejr

es9 said:


> Anything I can do about this?


Yes. Stop worrying about it and enjoy the shoes. They look great.


----------



## es9

Fair enough! 

What color polish/cream so you suggest? AE doesn't seem to offer light brown cordovan cream which is a shame... Their stuff has worked wonders on my other shell shoes, and I find it comforting that it offers some conditioning in addition to shine.


----------



## Dmontez

I ask the experts shell or not shell?


----------



## Pentheos

No way. Creasing. Lacks depth of color. Lacks puffiness.


----------



## Dmontez

Thats exactly what I thought, there is a guy in San Antonio that runs a consignment shop selling these on Ebay as Shell Cordovan.. Made by Perry Ellis too, I dont think I have ever seen Perry Ellis shell shoes.


----------



## 32rollandrock

Pentheos is right. You should notify seller and, if that doesn't work, notify eBay. There are enough shysters on that site without someone pulling this.


----------



## Dmontez

Ive contacted him Via Facebook, where I originally saw them, but I think I may just report it directly to ebay. He does not exactly strike me as a guy who would even try and make good on it.


----------



## Dmontez

This is the response I got from the seller.








Here is the link if anyone else would like to report them to ebay, and hopefully get them taken off before he sells them to some poor guy thinking he's getting shell.


----------



## Pentheos

Caveat emptor. We run a fee-free shell cordovan inspection service here.


----------



## 32rollandrock

Pentheos said:


> Caveat emptor. We run a fee-free shell cordovan inspection service here.


Sellers who do that sort of thing run the risk of a SNAD (significantly not as described) complaint, which usually go in the buyer's favor. In a case like this, it would absolutely go in the buyer's favor, meaning the seller would have to provide a full refund.

It is almost worth it--almost--to buy those shoes and file a SNAD in hopes of instilling in the seller the importance of accurately describing goods and dealing honestly. Nothing like losing $20 or more in shipping charges (in a case like this, I suspect eBay would require the seller to bear shipping charges in both directions) to convince someone not to rip people off.


----------



## Pentheos

Do it.


----------



## 32rollandrock

He changed the listing, adding a note to the bottom of the ad. Didn't change the title or main description--not sure whether that was doable with the auction already underway.


----------



## mhj

I picked these up at Goodwill today for $7 and they're my size. They sure look like shell to me, they're from Woodhouse Lynch who were fine haberdashers in Columbus, OH and closed in the late '90s. I'd like to know how to smooth them out like they do in the AE restoration before and after pics. I've treed them after spraying with shoe stretch spray. I afraid of using a conditioner in case they are shell

https://postimage.org/
photo hosting software

https://postimg.org/image/sqphsarh3/


----------



## 32rollandrock

^^

I say yes. Nice score.


----------



## Sgpearl

Agreed. $7 for shell. Nice.


----------



## eagle2250

^^+1.
Work some Venetian Cream into those horses and buff the h*ll out of them(AKA the MAC method)...they should begin to look like new, after a couple hours of elbow grease!


----------



## mhj

eagle2250 said:


> ^^+1.
> Work some Venetian Cream into those horses and buff the h*ll out of them(AKA the MAC method)...they should begin to look like new, after a couple hours of elbow grease!


I polished them up last night with AE Cordovan Cream, which I have on hand, a light coating of neutral paste and a lot of buffing and they look great.

https://postimg.org/image/6vkvd81gz/


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Stunningly handsome results! Your refinishing efforts appear to rival those of AE. :thumbs-up:


----------



## mhj

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Stunningly handsome results! Your refinishing efforts appear to rival those of AE. :thumbs-up:


Thanks Eagle. I'd still like to smooth them out more, I hoping more time in trees will help. Looking through the Ode to the Longwing thread and others I see that it may not be possible, many knowledgeable forumites have creases just as bad in their LWBs.


----------



## frosejr

Holy smokes, they look great!!! Congratulations!


----------



## RxRyanM

You guys are the experts and I'm somewhat inept, so what do you think gentlemen?
And how much would you maximally pay for these?
There are additional pictures here.

Thanks a ton, guys!


----------



## mr.v

Rxryan,
sadly not shell. I see those at goodwill fairly regularly for about $15. 
I wouldn't pay more than $30.


----------



## RxRyanM

mr.v said:


> Rxryan,
> sadly not shell. I see those at goodwill fairly regularly for about $15.
> I wouldn't pay more than $30.


Would you mind terribly pointing out why they aren't? I went back through the thread after you replied and came up with a couple things I think disqualifies them, but I wanted to match it up to someone else's thinking.


----------



## mr.v

RxRyanM said:


> Would you mind terribly pointing out why they aren't? I went back through the thread after you replied and came up with a couple things I think disqualifies them, but I wanted to match it up to someone else's thinking.


Sure,
Shell creases in bigger wave like rolls. The loafers in the picture have micro creases. The tiny river-from-a-map like creases are the main reason I feel they're not shell.


----------



## Pentheos

What makes you think they're shell?


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

MrV is totally right, not shell at all.


----------



## Acme

Out of curiosity, did Bass ever make shell weejuns? I've never seen any.


----------



## Orgetorix

Acme said:


> Out of curiosity, did Bass ever make shell weejuns? I've never seen any.


Me neither. As a matter of fact, shell pennies with a true moc-stitched toe like that are fairly rare. I've seen examples from J&M, maybe Florsheim or Cole Haan, but not many. Most of the shell pennies I've seen have the skin-stitched toe like the Alden LHS or the AE Patriot.


----------



## RxRyanM

mr.v said:


> Sure,Shell creases in bigger wave like rolls. The loafers in the picture have micro creases. The tiny river-from-a-map like creases are the main reason I feel they're not shell.


Ok, I ended up seeing that when I went back and looked deeper.


Pentheos said:


> What makes you think they're shell?


Their listing. It calls them 'cordovan', which is shell, is it not?

And in hindsight, posting the listing may have been easier, but oh well.


----------



## Dmontez

RxRyanM said:


> Ok, I ended up seeing that when I went back and looked deeper.Their listing. It calls them 'cordovan', which is shell, is it not?
> 
> And in hindsight, posting the listing may have been easier, but oh well.


you must be careful with that. Some people call burgundy shoes "cordovan" not to be mistaken with "Shell Cordovan" I fear that some unsuspecting people have bought shoes on eBay listed as cordovan thinking they are buying shell cordovan.

Go back one page to post#1469 and you will see another instance where the seller calls his shoe "shell cordovan" when he is referring to the color not the quality of leather.


----------



## bluenose

I have a pair of Florsheim Imperial shell pennies with "true moc-stitched" toes and have posted them before on the forum. They are over 20 years old and I still wear them.


----------



## Acme

Dmontez said:


> you must be careful with that. Some people call burgundy shoes "cordovan" not to be mistaken with "Shell Cordovan" I fear that some unsuspecting people have bought shoes on eBay listed as cordovan thinking they are buying shell cordovan.
> 
> Go back one page to post#1469 and you will see another instance where the seller calls his shoe "shell cordovan" when he is referring to the color not the quality of leather.


That, and some sellers call their shoes shell cordovan even when they're not, because they don't know shoes very well.


----------



## Bjorn

RxRyanM said:


> Ok, I ended up seeing that when I went back and looked deeper.Their listing. It calls them 'cordovan', which is shell, is it not?
> 
> And in hindsight, posting the listing may have been easier, but oh well.


Cordovan is a color as well. Since the shell cordovan leather is rather rare, referring to cordovan in terms of a color is most likely more common.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordovan_(color)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Pentheos

Shell cordovan is a material, which can be a wide range of colors.

Cordovan is a color, usually meaning a deep purplish hue, sometimes also called ox-blood, often simply burgundy.

On Ebay, you can sometimes find shell cordovan shoes which the seller simply calls cordovan. Those are usually a good deal. When they call a cordovan-colored shoe "shell cordovan", either they are confused or are trying to rip off a buyer.


----------



## khoadpham

Shell Cordovan? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Pentheos

Not the best photo. One shoe looks more like shell than the other. I'm inclined to say no -- seems to lack the depth of color associated with shell and its puffiness. The creases / rolls are hard to distinguish. Check the thread with the model numbers.


----------



## Bandit44

^ Agree with Pentheos.


----------



## frosejr

I say no


----------



## Acme

frosejr said:


> I say no


As do I.


----------



## Steve Smith

I say no.


----------



## catside

No. From SF:



> Per the Spring 1990 AE catalog, the 4777 is the burgundy polished cobbler Townley.
> 
> That would match up to the numbers inside your shoes.
> 
> From the description in the 1990 catalog, it appears to be close to the McAllister but uses the 7 last which is not as long and narrow as the 5 last used on the McAllister.


----------



## sskim3

need help with these to see if they are shell. Shoes are Stuart McGuire in 8.5 EE. They are too wide so want to make sure I capture the description accurately for the future owner.

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


----------



## sskim3

Front and bottom pics as well....


----------



## Pentheos

Very much doubt it.


----------



## Orgetorix

Agree with Pentheos - probably not shell. The creasing near the strap on the left shoe looks too fine for shell, and I highly doubt anyone'd go to the expense of making a shoe out of expensive shell and then put a cheap synthetic sole on it.


----------



## Barnavelt

Found these today. Very shiny with "pouching" at the eyelets but significant micro creases on the instep.. Am I just seeing things with the eyelets? I see now that the focus is not the best it could be..


----------



## Pentheos

99.999% certain they are not shell. I've heard rumors of micro-creased shell, but have never seen any in the wild, so to speak.


----------



## Barnavelt

Pentheos said:


> 99.999% certain they are not shell. I've heard rumors of micro-creased shell, but have never seen any in the wild, so to speak.


Neither have I. They are still a well made shoe. Somewhat classic and attractive.


----------



## Pentheos

Barnavelt said:


> Neither have I. They are still a well made shoe. Somewhat classic and attractive.


Wear in good health. Everyone should have PTBs. (I shouldn't mention that I got my AE Leeds in shell cordovan, practically brand new, for $60 on Ebay; seller didn't know what they were.)


----------



## catside

Why is this thread so slow? Shame, shame. Shell or not?


----------



## Pentheos

It would be a very rare beast if it was.


----------



## catside

It already is even if calf. A Hanover wholecut! NOS


----------



## Pentheos

They look it. Give them a good brushing and a little flexing and repost photos.


----------



## Youthful Repp-robate

catside said:


> It already is even if calf. A Hanover wholecut! NOS


My mind is blown. I'm not good enough at this game to tell from that photo, but those are _awesome._


----------



## catside

I am watching. If ends up at current price I may buy them but .....


----------



## The Deacon

Pentheos said:


> 99.999% certain they are not shell. I've heard rumors of micro-creased shell, but have never seen any in the wild, so to speak.


Recently I was astounded to see some minor micro-creasing on my Alden Whiskey shell cordovan LWBs. It is "thisclose" to the pinking near the toe philanges broqueing. The common "waves or folds" are also present. I will take a photo in the next few days. attached is a shot of a shoe with description of what pinking and brogueing is for those who don't know. Also provided a link to foot phalanges. https://www.google.com/imgres?sa=X&...93&start=17&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:28,s:0,i:171
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanges_of_the_foot

https://www.google.com/imgres?sa=X&...93&start=17&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:28,s:0,i:171


----------



## mikeh

Wow, hard to say! There's just not much to judge by. To me, the eyelets look like shell, but the brogueing doesn't. Do you know the answer Catside?


----------



## catside

No, I don't know. I was hoping someone would judge it to be. I think patent calf though that is on the base of no stamp on soles and Hanover used to put shell stamp. There are plenty exceptions to this rule unfortunately.


----------



## Pentheos

It would help if you had linked to the auction so we could see more of the photos.


----------



## Acme

Pentheos said:


> It would help if you had linked to the auction so we could see more of the photos.


^I got the impression he's hoping to avoid any competition. :cool2:


----------



## catside

Correct but I decided I have no use for these so here you go:


----------



## albuhhh

What do y'all think?



The seller even says that he thinks they aren't shell, and I bought them with the understanding that they're prob not, but it wouldn't hurt just to float this out there. Some of the Bostonian Crown Windsor shells I've seen are stamped as being shell, but I didn't know if it was a hard-and-fast rule, and maybe they only did this after a certain year.


----------



## catside

Regardless it is a great bargain. My 2cents is shell. It's difficult to tell when new. After few wears, creases will tell. Repost please


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Whether shell or not, they are gorgeous brand new shoes. You can't buy anything decent for that price. If they are shell, it will be icing on the cake. The couple lighter spots make me doubt that they are. Do post again once you've worn them a couple of times.


----------



## Pentheos

Corrected grain. You can see where the paint has rubbed off.


----------



## Sgpearl

^ Amazing. My gut said not shell -- they just didn't look right to me -- but I never would have thought that they were corrected grain.


----------



## catside

Same seller has PTBs marked shell for a great price.Dye rubbing off does not exclude shell IMO. Happened to my McNeils result of a sad accident. Cobbler fixed it thankfully.


----------



## Cardinals5

Pentheos said:


> Corrected grain. You can see where the paint has rubbed off.


Pentheos is correct - those are corrected grain


----------



## Pentheos

CG, but still a nice pair of NOS shoes. Wear in good health.


----------



## Pentheos

Good deals:

9D ($75.00 starting, $170.00 BIN):




11AAA ($75.00 BIN):




11D ($90.00 starting):





11D ($127 BIN, but worth it):




(I'd be on those Hanovers in a second if they were my size).


----------



## Reuben

Look like this are cordovan, but I'm not sure. Size 11.5 EEE Cordovan (?) longwings, $65+$11 shipping.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/163258...ry&ga_ship_to=US&ga_page=2&ga_search_type=all


----------



## Pentheos

Reuben said:


> Look like this are cordovan, but I'm not sure. Size 11.5 EEE Cordovan (?) longwings, $65+$11 shipping.
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/163258...ry&ga_ship_to=US&ga_page=2&ga_search_type=all


I doubt it. I see creasing. Shiny though.


----------



## Reuben

Yeah, I guess I got suckered by the second picture. Thanks for pointing that out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## Odradek

Bostonian Crown Windsor.
There's a code inside, 25638.
Just hoping they're not polished cobbler.
Any ideas?


----------



## Pentheos

Certainly the pair your link goes to are not shell. Those pictured I'm pretty sure not shell either. Would need another picture.


----------



## catside

Very nice shoes. Not shell, but nice.


----------



## Pentheos

catside said:


> Very nice shoes. Not shell, but nice.


Yep, not shell, I'd wear them though.


----------



## Reuben

So, these are cordovan, yes? Is the cracking around the collar fixable or not worth it?


----------



## conductor

Those are shell. The cracked part could easily be replaced, as it is not part of the main shoe leather. I'm not sure what a cobbler would charge for that. They look really dry. You'd need to condition the leather before you do any thing else. I'd snag 'em if they are not too expensive.


----------



## Reuben

Just picked 'em up, actually. Winning bid was ~$20, including shipping, from eBay. Seem like they'll probably fit but could be just a touch too small. Worth the risk, and I won't lose money on them. Either sell 'em to a friend at cost, or do the same on the exchange.

Unrelated note, what's the general quality ranking on vintage brands and models of cordovan shoes? Seems like Hanover/Florsheim Imperial is up at the top of the heap, Alden just a hair below them? How do shoes like Cordwainer Wright, Bostonian, and the J&M Aristocraft stack up?

Unrelated note number 2, these shoes are SHARP. NOS Florsheim Imperial cordovan longwings, 11B, $399 but with a "or best offer" option. Somebody pick these up before they leave for Germany, and post many beautiful pictures of them as they break in: 











9


----------



## Reuben

Sorry for blowing up this board, but one last post. I got these in today, and something just seems a little off about them. I'm wondering if they might be corrected grain? Or just heavily abused/overpolished? They're Cordainer Wright longwings:
Compared next to my Florsheim shell LWB









Some odd wear on the tongues:

















Serial number on the inside and stamp on the sole saying "Cordovan"
















Everything seems to check out at first glance, but that wear on the tongues is worrying, the shell fells a lot flimsier than my Florsheims and it almost seems plastic-y. The shine isn't quite what I'd expect, and the coloration seems a little too consistent. Any opinions?


----------



## Pentheos

Tongue is not shell.


----------



## Reuben

Pentheos said:


> Tongue is not shell.


Would that say anything about the rest of the shoe?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## firedancer

Reuben said:


> Would that say anything about the rest of the shoe?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


Looks like shell to me. Tongue included. 
Very dry looking though.


----------



## Cardinals5

Pentheos said:


> Tongue is not shell.


Pentheos is correct - the tongue is not shell (see the microcreases), but the rest of the shoe is definitely shell. Many makers saved money in the past, including Hanover, by using corrected grain or full calf tongues on their shell shoes.


----------



## Odradek

Odradek said:


> Bostonian Crown Windsor.
> There's a code inside, 25638.
> Just hoping they're not polished cobbler.
> Any ideas?


So, the consensus is that these are most likely polished leather?


----------



## Pentheos

I'd wager they're not shell, so probably CG.


----------



## Reuben

I know this is probably common knowledge, but WOW. Using venetian shoe cream to rehydrate those old shells has made an amazing change. The shine, the patina, the feel of the leather, everything is vastly improved.


----------



## Pentheos

Now you know why people love shell cordovan—there is nothing quite like it.


----------



## dkoernert

Hard to tell from the photos, what says the forum? They are listed as calf. Not my auction and I have no affiliation with the seller.


----------



## Cardinals5

dkoernert said:


> Hard to tell from the photos, what says the forum? They are listed as calf. Not my auction and I have no affiliation with the seller.


Yes, those are shell.


----------



## Pentheos

Cardinals5 said:


> Yes, those are shell.


Definitely shell, and a good deal to boot. I'd be on those in a heartbeat if they were my size.


----------



## Odradek

Cole Haan Shell?


----------



## Pentheos

Not shell. See those wrinkles? 100% certain.

They might be Cole Haan's though.


----------



## frosejr

^^definitely Cole Haan, definitely not shell.


----------



## dkoernert

Took a chance on these Royal Imperials for $35 shipped on the 'bay. The puffiness around the eyelets looks shellish to me, but I can't tell if there is microcreasing or just polish buildup in the rolls. I am hoping for shell but can't be mad about $35 Royal Imperials if they are not.


----------



## Pentheos

Doubt they're shell...not sure if Florsheim ever made shell saddles.


----------



## dkoernert

Pentheos said:


> Doubt they're shell...not sure if Florsheim ever made shell saddles.


Darn, oh well. This is why I love this forum though.


----------



## Pentheos

dkoernert said:


> Darn, oh well. This is why I love this forum though.


Maybe you'll get a nice surprise. Great shoes for an incredible price nonetheless.


----------



## Acme

Are these shell?



I think they may be. What's your opinion?


----------



## CMDC

^I say yes. Could be a nice reclamation project.


----------



## Pentheos

CMDC said:


> ^I say yes. Could be a nice reclamation project.


Yes, definitely shell - but they need a serious recraft, so factor in, say, $125.00 for the B. Nelson job. The shell looks in great shape though, so that might be worth it to you.


----------



## Reuben

These can't be shell, right?


----------



## Pentheos

Reuben said:


> These can't be shell, right?


I doubt it.


----------



## catside

Did JC Penney sell shells?


----------



## brantley11

If those are Jc Penny's then they did because those are without a doubt shell. I think Hanover made the shoes for Stafford if I am not mistaken.



catside said:


> Did JC Penney sell shells?


----------



## catside

Yes they are. IMHO Florsheim made. We will see since I bought them.


----------



## recoveringchef

Are these shell? I looked on the AE website and this sole would be consistent with that of the shell version of the Patriot. I'm just not sure enough from looking at the picture. Please for the love of God, no one seagull me! This would be my first shell purchase, so I'm trying to be sure about it.


----------



## dkoernert

recoveringchef said:


> Are these shell? I looked on the AE website and this sole would be consistent with that of the shell version of the Patriot. I'm just not sure enough from looking at the picture. Please for the love of God, no one seagull me! This would be my first shell purchase, so I'm trying to be sure about it.


Definitely. Looks like the guy ended the listing, and relisted them at $60.


----------



## recoveringchef

dkoernert said:


> Definitely. Looks like the guy ended the listing, and relisted them at $60.


Oh lord, it's because I made him doubt whether or not they're shell. To be continued...


----------



## dkoernert

Double post.


----------



## dkoernert

recoveringchef said:


> Oh lord, it's because I made him doubt whether or not they're shell. To be continued...


Haha, I was wondering if that was you that asked the question.


----------



## catside

Next time copy the photo and paste here, never ask the seller. It's not really dishonest since shoes around here are 25 bucks and in some areas of the country as little as few bucks. They would stand to make money regardless.


----------



## dkoernert

Also (if it was your question on the original auction) the lack of a stamp on the sole doesn't mean a thing IME. Often the stamp is placed somewhere near the ball of the foot and wears away pretty quickly, or it can be missing all together if the shoes have been re-soled. Every used pair of shell shoes I have picked up have been missing the stamp on the bottom.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I agree those Patriots are shell cordovan: the rippling on the toe box is the first tell tale sign, followed by the dove tail heels.


----------



## Pentheos

Patriots are shell.


----------



## catside

catside said:


> Did JC Penney sell shells?


Staffords arrived and below after Venetian Cream and minimal brushing, looks shell, your opinion?


----------



## Pentheos

Your first pair?

Is there any surface creasing? If so, not shell. Are there just gentle waves? Then shell.


----------



## catside

Pentheos said:


> Your first pair?
> 
> Is there any surface creasing? If so, not shell. Are there just gentle waves? Then shell.


Eh, no. Who has a single pair but Venetian cream ready at home. I was looking for a cheap pair to attempt color change. To go for cigar or brown.


----------



## Sgpearl

Catside: 

The pictures are a little dark but they certainly look like shell to me. The Venetian Cream really brought them black to life. I finally went ahead and ordered some because the Reno I have is not doing the job. Can't wait to see what the Venetian can do for my shells!


----------



## catside

Venetian Cream is really useful for shell and recommended by Horveen so I guess you can't go wrong with it. Saphir has actually a different product for cordovan.
these are interesting. Looks and feels cordovan, last is Florsheim, three quarters big, built quality is a little less than Old Florsheim gunboats though. It has the stormwelt etc but the leather sole is not Oak sole although thick, and lining is not leather. So they cut from the quality of not visible materials to bring the price down to JC Penney level. I searched the forum and member Stevesmith mentions somewhere that he has Stafford shells so they did some shell runs when Florsheim was making for them. Reminds me the once upon a time entry Florsheim Wortthmore line! even that line had limited shell offerings.
These are bought for a modest price and I'm planning to experiment on these, trying to convert them to a cigar color when I have the time and buy necessary deglazer, leather dye, glaze.


----------



## Reuben

Apparently Sears used to carry shell too: 










catside said:


> Venetian Cream is really useful for shell and recommended by Horveen so I guess you can't go wrong with it. Saphir has actually a different product for cordovan.
> these are interesting. Looks and feels cordovan, last is Florsheim, three quarters big, built quality is a little less than Old Florsheim gunboats though. It has the stormwelt etc but the leather sole is not Oak sole although thick, and lining is not leather. So they cut from the quality of not visible materials to bring the price down to JC Penney level. I searched the forum and member Stevesmith mentions somewhere that he has Stafford shells so they did some shell runs when Florsheim was making for them. Reminds me the once upon a time entry Florsheim Wortthmore line! even that line had limited shell offerings.
> These are bought for a modest price and I'm planning to experiment on these, trying to convert them to a cigar color when I have the time and buy necessary deglazer, leather dye, glaze.


----------



## catside

For sure. That has already oxidized to a nice brown. Looks like the colors you see in Hanovers. Florsheims are dark burgundy like Aldens. Hanovers and old MacNeil AEs are more brownish.


----------



## Reuben

Can ya spot the cost-saving measure on the sears pair?


----------



## catside

Tongue is not shell?


----------



## Reuben

Nope. Longwing's 3 separate pieces. See the seam on the side?


----------



## letsi

Hi Guys,

Have been learning lots from this thread. Great game going here but some of the "shell shoes" out there still throw me into a spin.
There's this particular auction that I was monitoring and had problems identifying if they're corrected grain/polished cobbler leather or shell



Also, any idea if the torn back/heel lining can be repaired?

Cheers


----------



## Reuben

Definitely shell. No creasing, plenty of rolling, has a little bit of that shell build-up in the rolls, nice-looking patina with depth and variation you don't get from CG. As far as repair, though, that's up to you and your cobbler. I'd image the best case scenario is the lining getting a patch sewn on, though I have no grounds on which to base that.


----------



## Acme

Next up, these:



I vote No, they're not really shell. What do you guys think?


----------



## Reuben

I agree. No idea why, but something just doesn't look right.


----------



## Acme

^I have two reasons for thinking they're not, I want to see what everyone else thinks. I'm trying to improve my shell-dar.


----------



## Pentheos

I think they are, shell uppers that is, but they didn't use shell for the tassels—we've come to expect that on current AE and Alden. But the soles do look a bit substandard. Replacements? You could check the thread for the numbers since they're visible.


----------



## Reuben

Does the shine seem a little flat to anyone else? There just doesn't seem to be any real dimension to it like there is with shells I own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dkoernert

They look like shell to me, but I am also trying to improve my shell-dar.


----------



## Cardinals5

Those are definitely shell - the tassels too, I think - but have been completely resoled.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I agree that the black tassel loafers are shell: the creases are white. Only shell creases white.

I disagree that the MacNeils posted a bit earlier are shell: why would AE not put their tell-tale "shell" heel on these shoes (dove tail leather-rubber combo), even assuming they had been re-heeled with an AE heel? They also seem to exhibit micro-creasing.


----------



## Acme

Cardinals5 said:


> Those are definitely shell - the tassels too, I think - but have been completely resoled.


I voted no because one of the uppers appeared to have the beginnings of a calf style crease. I also thought that since the material was indicated inside the shoe, they'd have been marked "shell cordovan" rather than "all leather shoe."









That said, the numbers on the shoe appear to be 3505, which according to the guide is a match for Hanover Shell Cordovan. And I wasn't quick to catch that they'd been resoled, which would be another indicator that they're shell, not calf.

Thanks for all your input, gentlemen.


----------



## tonylumpkin

Just to better help you ID shell, the white you're seeing in those pictures isn't the white you would use to ID shell. That would be more of a pale, milky film in the creases. What you see there is glare from lights. Shell is often labeled as leather, which it is...just horse leather. Finally, I'm curious as to why you think resoling would be an indicator that the shoes were shell.



Acme said:


> I voted no because one of the uppers appeared to have the beginnings of a calf style crease. I also thought that since the material was indicated inside the shoe, they'd have been marked "shell cordovan" rather than "all leather shoe."
> 
> View attachment 9446
> 
> 
> That said, the numbers on the shoe appear to be 3505, which according to the guide is a match for Hanover Shell Cordovan. And I wasn't quick to catch that they'd been resoled, which would be another indicator that they're shell, not calf.
> 
> Thanks for all your input, gentlemen.


----------



## letsi

Thanks for all the response. I'm still not good at determining what everyone mentioned about depth and patina as polished cobbler also seemed to exhibit some form of color depth to me... Still learning I guess.



Barrister & Solicitor said:


> I agree that the black tassel loafers are shell: the creases are white. Only shell creases white.
> 
> I disagree that the MacNeils posted a bit earlier are shell: why would AE not put their tell-tale "shell" heel on these shoes (dove tail leather-rubber combo), even assuming they had been re-heeled with an AE heel? They also seem to exhibit micro-creasing.


What you mentioned about the dovetail heels make sense but looking at the model number 9097. All searches seem to bring up AE Mac Neil in Burgundy cordovan...


----------



## Acme

tonylumpkin said:


> Finally, I'm curious as to why you think resoling would be an indicator that the shoes were shell.


I'm a bit too attached to the appearance of pronounced ripples as an indicator for shell. Note the shoe on the left in the photo below:









The shoe on the right is Alden shell, from If it weren't labelled as shell, I'd have a hard time distinguishing it from barely worn calf that hasn't had a chance to develop micro-creases.

I thought the shoes were probably calf that were too new to develop obvious microcreasing, though it was starting in that one spot. However, since they've been worn enough to be resoled, surely they've been worn enough to develop creases, and the lack of them would indicate shell. Perhaps that spot I thought was creasing is just cracks in the polish.


----------



## housemartin

Opinions on these:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Han...-/281223765954?ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:CA:1123


----------



## Pentheos

housemartin said:


> Opinions on these:
> 
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Han...-/281223765954?ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:CA:1123


I think so.


----------



## drlivingston

Pentheos said:


> I think so.


I second that opinion. Nice buy!!


----------



## rphotoboy

Anyone with any opinions on these? I purchased them this morning, should be able to tell for sure soon enough. The "fine imported leather" suggests maybe they aren't, unless they're one of those italian shell cordovans, and the heel isn't the standard AE shell heel, but looks to have been added afterwards in any case. Eyelets don't look shell, but I can't see any pore pattern, and the waves look very cordovan to me:


----------



## CMDC

Yes.

Going to need some time in trees. Looks like they've been folded in half for about a decade or so. With some care they should turn out well though.


----------



## Tilton

Shell. CMDC is right about the trees, though. Try letting them get warm with the trees in. Near a heat vent or in the bathroom while you shower has worked for me.


----------



## Reuben

Tilton said:


> Shell. CMDC is right about the trees, though. Try letting them get warm with the trees in. Near a heat vent or in the bathroom while you shower has worked for me.


 Condition them first, though! Don't want to crack them.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

AE's recrafting service is your friend. These shoes have seen plenty of action and would certainly benefit from AE's tlc. The cork footbed is probably very much shaped to the original owner's foot and you'll likely find it's more comfortable to have a new footbed.


----------



## drlivingston

Reuben said:


> Condition them first, though! Don't want to crack them.


That is exactly what I was about to type...


----------



## sskim3

On my phone during my commute so I apologies in advance. Is the following Hanover wingtip shell? I cant really tell from the pics. But seems too good to be true, so looking for your expertise.

https://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=121234906794

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acme

^ I say not.


----------



## catside

no, the sole would be marked in Hanovers as shell among other things. It is not eroded to the level that markings would disappear.


----------



## Sgpearl

For sure not. I can see micro-creasing on the toes. Easy to see on my monitor. And no depth of color. They look shellacked, if that's a word.


----------



## Sgpearl

I think I'm losing it. These Florsheims aren't, are they?


























Thanks in advance and Merry Christmas to everyone!


----------



## letsi

^ Looks like cordovan but can't be sure since pictures aren't clear enough to check if there're micro creases.

How about this auction? Do you think it's polished or shell?


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The loafers in the Ebay link certainly aren't shell.

The above Florsheims might be, however, the more modern looking tag has me wondering, they could be CG and better pics would help.

Merry Christmas!


----------



## Sgpearl

I'm not going to buy the Florsheims. The color is too uniform and they look a little plastic-y so I'm guessing they're CG.


----------



## MWhisler

I don't think Florsheim ever made Shell's with that sewn in tag, it was always printed on every pair I've seen. Could be wrong, but I've seen quite a few pairs.


----------



## Bandit44

^ Florsheims are not shell. Have to be careful of blurry pictures; sometimes clever sellers obscure photos and describe shoes as "cordovan" knowing full well that someone might think they are unmarked shell. In those cases, I always ask for the model number. If seller can't provide or plays ignorant, I move on. Fool me once....


----------



## Sgpearl

Thank you all for your help with the Florsheims. I did not buy them. Merry Christmas.


----------



## Fiddlermatt

These claim to be shell; what say the learned members of AAAC?


----------



## Pentheos

Fiddlermatt said:


> These claim to be shell; what say the learned members of AAAC?


"Shell design"...but not shell. Here we have another Ebayer who read somewhere that shell shoes command higher prices, and so he calls them shell without knowing what it is.


----------



## Fiddlermatt

I found it extremely hard to believe they were shell, thanks for confirming my suspicions. I wonder if it's worth contact the seller and/or ebay before somebody gets snokered?


----------



## dkoernert

Fiddlermatt said:


> I found it extremely hard to believe they were shell, thanks for confirming my suspicions. I wonder if it's worth contact the seller and/or ebay before somebody gets snokered?


In the few cases I have pointed it out, the seller has been appreciative that I did so.


----------



## Reuben

Hey guys, I'm pretty sure this pair of longwings I thrifted is shell, but I figured I'd better check to be sure before I posted them to the exchange.
Brand: Keith Highlander
Serial #:12 (size) 27433D (width?) 
2nd line: RAR/A 2386-6


----------



## Pentheos

They look it. I thought you were a master of shell?


----------



## Reuben

Pentheos said:


> They look it. I thought you were a master of shell?


Not even close! I certainly know more than I used to, though, largely thanks to y'all. While I think I know it when i see it, I've been proven wrong often enough on here that I figured I'd better double-check. I mean, I coulda sworn those Allen Edmond Lloyds on etsy someone posted in another thread were shell, not corrected grain.


----------



## frosejr

Reuben said:


> Hey guys, I'm pretty sure this pair of longwings I thrifted is shell, but I figured I'd better check to be sure before I posted them to the exchange.
> Brand: Keith Highlander
> Serial #:12 (size) 27433D (width?)
> 2nd line: RAR/A 2386-6


^^definitely shell, and I'm definitely interested if they're narrow


----------



## rphotoboy

Hey all,

I posted asking about this pair on Ebay before. Thanks for your advice; they came, they are shell and in amazing condition for $30! 

This is them after a coat of Saphir Renovateur. Not nearly enough sole wear to send in for recrafting yet, I'll just put them in trees for now


H


----------



## cincydavid

I might be interested in the Keith Highlanders if they are NOT narrow...


----------



## DoghouseReilly

Stafford looks like an earlier release of the Leeds. Seller says brown, but it looks more like burgundy to me. What do you guys think?


----------



## CMDC

I say no. The 7th picture shows some microcreasing on both shoes up the vamp near the beginning of the lacing.


----------



## JackFlash

CMDC said:


> I say no. The 7th picture shows some microcreasing on both shoes up the vamp near the beginning of the lacing.


Agree.


----------



## Orgetorix

Yeah, definitely not shell.


----------



## DoghouseReilly

Ah well. Nice pair of shoes anyway. Thanks for the input, guys.


----------



## The Deacon

Not listed as shell.


----------



## dkoernert

The Deacon said:


> View attachment 9877
> View attachment 9878
> Not listed as shell.


I say no, looks like microcreasing everywhere.


----------



## CMDC

I agree. Not shell.


----------



## Orgetorix

Hmm...I wouldn't risk money on them, but those could be. What looks like microcreasing could be old polish. Every other detail looks like shell to me. I have some Nettleton shell tassels that look like that.


----------



## dkoernert

Follow the link to the auction and look at the giant photos. I agree that many of the details do look like shell but when you blow the photos up, its pretty clear that they aren't.


----------



## JackFlash

Orgetorix said:


> Hmm...I wouldn't risk money on them, but those could be. What looks like microcreasing could be old polish. Every other detail looks like shell to me. I have some Nettleton shell tassels that look like that.


This is a tough one. The creasing is strange, however, the solid stretches of leather look very shell to me. No matter, they have already been sold.


----------



## The Deacon

Orgetorix said:


> Hmm...I wouldn't risk money on them, but those could be. What looks like microcreasing could be old polish. Every other detail looks like shell to me. I have some Nettleton shell tassels that look like that.


I think it's the old polish. I owned a pair of Johnston & Murphy shell tassels that had the same micro-creases (Uncle initially opined they weren't shell) and oddly a pair of Alden Whiskey shell LWB with micro-creasing near the pinking above the phalanges.

I guess I'll find out tomorrow.


----------



## Orgetorix

Do let us know. I thought I saw the faintest ghost of micro-creasing around the back collar on one shoe, which made me even more uncertain.


----------



## The Deacon

Orgetorix said:


> Do let us know. I thought I saw the faintest ghost of micro-creasing around the back collar on one shoe, which made me even more uncertain.


I have probably owned and sold over 200 pairs of shell and I was not 100% sure, even while holding these in my hand. But, I will resell them as calf to be safe. I've seen the newer(thinner!) Alden LWB shell with spiderweb creasing and thicker shell that simply folds with absolutely no creasing. I think that anyone can be fooled. I am relieved that I did not sink more money into them.


----------



## rphotoboy

How about these?



Look like shell, but the price they are listed for isn't that good a deal...


----------



## firedancer

^ yep. And that's price isn't awful for shell in that condition. If these are your size I'd grab them.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The "dove tail" heel is usually used by AE for their shell cordovan shoes, although I think they may have used it otherwise in the very recent past. They look like shell, but in a darker color than number 8. Nice shoes.


----------



## CMDC

Agree. For that condition, a fair price.


----------



## Pentheos

13D Florsheim Imperial in burgundy shell. Not a terrible price.

(I'm positive they're shell.)

But what has happened to the side? Very odd.


----------



## Sgpearl

Yikes! And the toe of the right shoe is kind of munched too. I hate to see such a nice pair of shoes messed up like that.



Pentheos said:


> 13D Florsheim Imperial in burgundy shell. Not a terrible price.
> 
> (I'm positive they're shell.)
> 
> But what has happened to the side? Very odd.


----------



## Bandit44

^ Those would be a great restoration project if bought from a thrift store. $99 for a pair of beat to hell shell cordovans is testament to how nutty ebay has become.


----------



## Fiddlermatt

They are Hanover Signatures. Do they look like shell? I think I see puffy eyelets and a lack of micro-creasing.


----------



## CMDC

Shell


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Without being able to zoom in, I'd say shell. The brilliant shine is also another clue in favor of shell.


----------



## Fiddlermatt

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Without being able to zoom in, I'd say shell. The brilliant shine is also another clue in favor of shell.


Here's a link to the ebay auction. There a just a smidgeon too long and a little wide for me. Maybe someone with large feet can enjoy them!


----------



## drlivingston

I picked up another pair of Florsheim Imperial shell longwings today. There are few thrifting joys that rival looking inside a pair of Florsheims and seeing those five magic digits "93605" :icon_cheers:


----------



## Monocle

I apologize, but I did not want to start a new thread. I am technically virginal to the shell game. My new-to-me Alden 990 PTB's. I took some grungy nighttime pics to show the true condition starting out. I would like a modern, up to date, revised and refined, new and improved, state of the art, forum consensus on condition, and whether to send them away or have a local cobbler take care of these. I know some old threads have hashed this over, and I'm inclined to be of the "send them in" party, just b/c they are my first pair..(*blushing)


----------



## Pentheos

They both appear to be shell. The black ones need new heels. Both need some solid mac treatment.


----------



## Monocle

These are the same shoes, top and bottoms. The nighttime pics really show everything, which is what I wanted to show. The finish looks like they were "home done" with some kind of shoe care, but not a good job at all. The soles are "gone" in the relative sense, thus the reconditioning will commence. I paid a smooth $5.99 for the pair, and though they are technically 1/2 size too big, they seem to fit my foot really well. Do Aldens run small?


----------



## drlivingston

Monocle said:


> Do Aldens run small?


Most of my Aldens actually run a half size larger than indicated. In my case, it depends upon the last (and Alden uses plenty of them).


----------



## Sgpearl

Nice find, Monocle! $5.99 for Alden shells? Yes please! 

If I had been fortunate enough to find these, I would get to work on them with a stiff brush to get the old polish off (it looks like they have a ton on there) and Venetian Shoe Cream to recondition the shell; I know others prefer other products. Some have said that just using the Mac Method on older, dry shell can lead to cracking, so it is important to condition. And yes, in my limited experience with Alden, they do run small, depending on the last. 

That being said, if you're more comfortable sending them out, go for it! You saved enough on the purchase that you can afford it!


----------



## Sgpearl

Fiddlermatt said:


> They are Hanover Signatures. Do they look like shell? I think I see puffy eyelets and a lack of micro-creasing.


No question they're shell. The eyelets, the rolls, the glow from inside. Beautiful shoes.


----------



## Sgpearl

drlivingston said:


> I picked up another pair of Florsheim Imperial shell longwings today. There are few thrifting joys that rival looking inside a pair of Florsheims and seeing those five magic digits "93605" :icon_cheers:


Lucky man. Lucky, lucky man. I never find even decent shoes, let alone shell!


----------



## Steve Smith

drlivingston said:


> I picked up another pair of Florsheim Imperial shell longwings today. There are few thrifting joys that rival looking inside a pair of Florsheims and seeing those five magic digits "93605" :icon_cheers:


lol. I posted several years ago that 93605 is my lucky number.


----------



## tocohillsguy

Not my size, but I believe these are shell even though the seller seems to think they are calf.... Ironically, I think his price is too high if they are calf, but isn't unfair for shell...


----------



## Fiddlermatt

Sgpearl said:


> No question they're shell. The eyelets, the rolls, the glow from inside. Beautiful shoes.


I got really detailed measurements from the seller, and there is a very high chance that they will fit with my orthotics. If not, I'll only be out shipping costs.


----------



## Pentheos

tocohillsguy said:


> Not my size, but I believe these are shell even though the seller seems to think they are calf.... Ironically, I think his price is too high if they are calf, but isn't unfair for shell...


Definitely shell. $210.00 is a bit high, although others might not. I scored a pair of AE Leeds in burgundy shell, about the same condition, for $60.00 about a year ago.


----------



## Stolz

10EEE is too wide for me, but I didn't see any micro creases so I thought I'd post it.


----------



## MaxBuck

tocohillsguy said:


> Not my size, but I believe these are shell even though the seller seems to think they are calf.... Ironically, I think his price is too high if they are calf, but isn't unfair for shell...





Pentheos said:


> Definitely shell.


I think not.


----------



## firedancer

tocohillsguy said:


> Not my size, but I believe these are shell even though the seller seems to think they are calf.... Ironically, I think his price is too high if they are calf, but isn't unfair for shell...


Yep. Shell. Price is. Little steep but they seem to be in excellent condition. So...


----------



## firedancer

Stolz said:


> 10EEE is too wide for me, but I didn't see any micro creases so I thought I'd post it.


Shell. But trashed. 
$30 is fair if you're going to strip them and make a wallet


----------



## Pentheos

firedancer said:


> Shell. But trashed.
> $30 is fair if you're going to strip them and make a wallet


Wrong. They'd make good beaters tel quel. Or send them off to be rebuilt and they'd be fine for another decade or two.


----------



## firedancer

Pentheos said:


> Wrong. They'd make good beaters tel quel. Or send them off to be rebuilt and they'd be fine for another decade or two.


Not worth it. The linings are worn through. I could just imagine the footbed. 
Don't know what kind of schlack the seller spayed on them but they don't look right.

Even shell has a shelf life I'm afraid.


----------



## Sgpearl

Originally Posted by *tocohillsguy* 
Not my size, but I believe these are shell even though the seller seems to think they are calf.... Ironically, I think his price is too high if they are calf, but isn't unfair for shell...



MaxBuck said:


> I think not.


I also think not. At first glance, I thought so, but on closer inspection, and particularly looking at the close-up of the toes, the leather appears to have pores. I understand that shell does not. Also, the soles of the AE shells are stamped, "Horween Shell," and these are not. I don't think they're so worn that the stamp would have worn off. Of course, this is just a guess and I could be wrong.


----------



## Acme

^The shell hunter's guide would seem to indicate that they are, in fact, shell.


----------



## MaxBuck

Sgpearl said:


> I also think not. At first glance, I thought so, but on closer inspection, and particularly looking at the close-up of the toes, the leather appears to have pores. I understand that shell does not. Also, the soles of the AE shells are stamped, "Horween Shell," and these are not. I don't think they're so worn that the stamp would have worn off. Of course, this is just a guess and I could be wrong.





Acme said:


> ^The shell hunter's guide would seem to indicate that they are, in fact, shell.


Economic considerations suggest that the guy who listed the shoes and who bought them new would've said they are shell if they in fact were. He'd get two to three times the price.

Pictures can be misleading, but a dollar is a dollar.


----------



## Eric W S

Sgpearl said:


> Originally Posted by *tocohillsguy*
> Not my size, but I believe these are shell even though the seller seems to think they are calf.... Ironically, I think his price is too high if they are calf, but isn't unfair for shell...
> 
> I also think not. At first glance, I thought so, but on closer inspection, and particularly looking at the close-up of the toes, the leather appears to have pores. I understand that shell does not. Also, the soles of the AE shells are stamped, "Horween Shell," and these are not. I don't think they're so worn that the stamp would have worn off. Of course, this is just a guess and I could be wrong.


The stamp for more modern offerings is often under the ball of the foot and wears off quickly.


----------



## Orgetorix

MaxBuck said:


> Economic considerations suggest that the guy who listed the shoes and who bought them new would've said they are shell if they in fact were. He'd get two to three times the price.
> 
> Pictures can be misleading, but a dollar is a dollar.


I don't understand what the confusion is here. The shoes have the 9501 model number stamped inside. 9501 is the current model number for black shell Leeds, as shown on the AE website right now. They are shell.


----------



## MaxBuck

Orgetorix said:


> I don't understand what the confusion is here. The shoes have the 9501 model number stamped inside. 9501 is the current model number for black shell Leeds, as shown on the AE website right now. They are shell.


You're absolutely right, and I've been wrong. Imagine my surprise to see that there was a second row of photos there that I didn't see ...

Now the question becomes, did the seller pick these up new for the price of calf? I'd like to find out how to get *that* deal.


----------



## Pentheos

MaxBuck said:


> You're absolutely right, and I've been wrong. Imagine my surprise to see that there was a second row of photos there that I didn't see ...
> 
> Now the question becomes, did the seller pick these up new for the price of calf? I'd like to find out how to get *that* deal.


Why do you assume the seller is the original owner?


----------



## MaxBuck

Pentheos said:


> Why do you assume the seller is the original owner?


1. Nearly-new condition.

2. The seller's assertion that cedar shoe trees have been used "since purchase."


----------



## tocohillsguy

Pentheos said:


> Definitely shell. $210.00 is a bit high, although others might not. I scored a pair of AE Leeds in burgundy shell, about the same condition, for $60.00 about a year ago.


Congrats on the $60 pair you picked up, but I believe that's an extraordinary deal and not really a reflection of market value. I believe the listed shoes would sell for close to the listed asking price if they were properly identified as shell cordovan. Maybe a little less because they are black instead of #8. I probably would have bought them (and sold my current black shell PTBs) if they were my size.


----------



## JackFlash

, but the uppers look like they need some work, which I am happy to put in. I'm a bit worried about the toe cap on the right shoe (see the first picture); it seems like it's a little too cracked and dry to be saved. Thoughts?


----------



## Orgetorix

JackFlash said:


> , but the uppers look like they need some work, which I am happy to put in. I'm a bit worried about the toe cap on the right shoe (see the first picture); it seems like it's a little too cracked and dry to be saved. Thoughts?


That could be old wax that's dried out and cracked; if so, you should be able to remove it. It could also be the shell itself cracking, but shell tends to crack mainly in the areas where the shoes flex. That isn't one of those areas.


----------



## drlivingston

Orgetorix said:


> That could be old wax that's dried out and cracked; if so, you should be able to remove it. It could also be the shell itself cracking, but shell tends to crack mainly in the areas where the shoes flex. That isn't one of those areas.


I am in total agreement with the O-man. That is the cracking of the actual shell on a non-flex area (not a good sign). While the shoes still have personality and the overall panache of shell, they have been seriously neglected. IMHO, not worth it.


----------



## firedancer

Orgetorix said:


> That could be old wax that's dried out and cracked; if so, you should be able to remove it. It could also be the shell itself cracking, but shell tends to crack mainly in the areas where the shoes flex. That isn't one of those areas.


It is indeed strange. 
Which brings up a pet peeve of mine.

If you're selling something that is obviously flawed in some way, why not, in addition to disclosing it, zoom in and take a picture of said flaw.

It's better for everyone and the buyer can make a better informed decision. The seller can be assured that the shoes probably won't be returned for said disclosed flaw. 
Rant over


----------



## JackFlash

drlivingston said:


> I am in total agreement with the O-man. That is the cracking of the actual shell on a non-flex area (not a good sign). While the shoes still have personality and the overall panache of shell, they have been seriously neglected. IMHO, not worth it.


Thank you Orgetorix and Dr. Livingston. I am in agreement that the uppers look problematic. Wish the seller took a few min to wipe the shoes down and do at least a little brushing (what is all that yellow stuff?). Would be a lot easier to assess the potential damage.


----------



## tocohillsguy

JackFlash said:


> , but the uppers look like they need some work, which I am happy to put in. I'm a bit worried about the toe cap on the right shoe (see the first picture); it seems like it's a little too cracked and dry to be saved. Thoughts?


Those shoes have been newly resoled. I doubt the seller would have invested the time and money to do so if they were cracking. The area that concerns you does not look like cracking to me. Instead it looks like a wax or filler that may have been used to cover a gouge or problematic area. If you are interested in those shoes I would suggest you reach out to the seller and ask some questions. He or she may be able to give you a very direct and plausible explanation.


----------



## drlivingston

These I am not so sure about. I am not sure if they have micro creases or just non cared for shell... Nettleton penny loafers:


----------



## tigerpac

^I vote not shell


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Not shell, these are indeed microcreasing. Shell is much smoother looking.


----------



## JackFlash

tigerpac said:


> ^I vote not shell


I strongly second the motion.


----------



## drlivingston

Awesome! Thanks guys.


----------



## dkoernert

I'm thinking not shell, what does everyone think? This looks to be a killer deal either way.


----------



## CMDC

I'm pretty sure no, but if yes, I would be all over them. I don't want to poach though.


----------



## tigerpac

That's a tough one, could go eitherway


----------



## dkoernert

I thought I saw some micro creasing near the lace holes. That dent on the toe of the left shoe is a little concerning too, it almost looks like a puncture.


----------



## JackFlash

tigerpac said:


> That's a tough one, could go eitherway


I agree, since these are new, it's almost impossible to tell. No creasing. Could the age signify something? These look like a newer model (indicated by the fabric tag on the heel), which would suggest to me that these are likely lower quality corrected grain and not shell. On second thought, look at the creasing near the eyelets, particularly in the fourth picture. I vote no.


----------



## Bandit44

I say not shell. In some of the pics, you can see the grain of the leather (if the photos are accurate). Not worth the gamble, but if you want to be sure, pm the seller for the serial number. Once confirmed, you'll have to act fast. Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Pentheos

Definitely not.


----------



## Kreiger

Seller says they are made in India. I don't think there are any Indian shell Florsheims, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Dkoernert, according to the listing, these shoes are Made in India. Can't be shell.


----------



## dkoernert

Yup I figured as much. My first instinct was not shell, but I figured I'd check here just in case. Seller messaged me the serial number, not even close. The fabric tag was the red flag for me. I am no expert in Florsheims but I have yet to see a pair of shell Florsheims with that fabric tag on the insole.


----------



## JackFlash

Kreiger said:


> Seller says they are made in India. I don't think there are any Indian shell Florsheims, but I could be wrong.


Exactly; lower quality newer model made from corrected grain, which can look like shell.


----------



## drlivingston

In Florsheim, I always look for the numbers "93605" which is their designation for shell.


----------



## firedancer

I'm still a bit torn on the florsheims being discussed. 
They look like shell ( I've only seen them on my iPhone). 
They have the right heel and green imperial patch ( something I haven't seen on recent Indian royals). 
I own shell imperials with the same footpad. 

And for what it's worth, the Duckie shells are made in India so I'm not so sure a royal imperial shell would be to far of a stretch to be made there as well.


----------



## dkoernert

17109-05 is the serial number provided by the seller.


----------



## Dmontez

https://bit.ly/1jpmvqu

Thoughts? I swear I see micro creasing.


----------



## Pentheos

Dmontez said:


> https://bit.ly/1jpmvqu
> 
> Thoughts? I swear I see micro creasing.


Definitely not shell, despite what the soles say. A weird pair.


----------



## JackFlash

Pentheos said:


> Definitely not shell, despite what the soles say. A weird pair.


Yes, very strange. Agree, though: not shell.


----------



## Orgetorix

That's not a standard AE model, so undoubtedly it's a custom order and either the customer specified Rendenbach soles or the factory used them for some other reason. Maybe they ran short on the standard soles or something.


----------



## Takai

Opinions?


----------



## Reuben

Yes. 


Sent from HAARP using Tapatalk


----------



## Pentheos

Takai said:


> Opinions?


Definitely, and not a bad buy at $120 BIN. Buy them with confidence.


----------



## Takai

If only they were in my size. Finding 8.5 Shells is difficult


----------



## Tilton

Takai said:


> If only they were in my size. Finding 8.5 Shells is difficult


Give yourself a pat on the back - at least you're not a 13.


----------



## dkoernert

Takai said:


> Opinions?


I think those have been re-listed several times, not sure why they havent sold at that price. They look great. I've clicked on them on several occasions, hoping that the B would magically turn into a D. No such luck.


----------



## Dmontez

Dmontez said:


> https://bit.ly/1jpmvqu
> 
> Thoughts? I swear I see micro creasing.


I sent the guy a message asking him if there was any proof that they were in fact Shell, and he said no, but he did pay 700.00 for them when he custom ordered them. They were the shoes he wore for his wedding, and I told him I sold the boots I wore for my wedding, and unless that marriage has ended in divorce I would suggest keeping them. He took my advice and removed the listing.


----------



## sskim3

shell or not?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## firedancer

No on the florsheims. 

I believe yes on the Alden. Haven't looked real close with my Mac but in the iPhone they look right. A faded #8.


----------



## Acme

^I think so.

Takai, those are 8.5 D. You may want to get a bid in.


----------



## sskim3

Acme said:


> ^I think so.
> 
> Takai, those are 8.5 D. You may want to get a bid in.


The bidding wars begin. Lol

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acme

brantley11 said:


> I have an identical pair in 9 C this listed on ebay right now, and I can confirm that they are shell. The style number of distinction is 93232.


The Florsheims are shell, the model number matches.

Since 93232 is not on the Shell Hunter's Guide, can I respectfully request that an admin add it to the list?


----------



## Puritan

sskim3 said:


> shell or not?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Hmm, just based off appearances it does look like they both truly are shell. The lack of creasing despite the age of the shoe, and the natural lustre does point to it possibly being shell.


----------



## Takai

Unfortunately in that shoe I wear a 7.5-8. I actually own that shoe in Black Shell in an 8.5 C/E, and it's definitely too large. Though it is certainly a wonderful shoe. I'll probably just hold out for a nice pair of Gunboats in my size. 


Acme said:


> ^I think so.
> 
> Takai, those are 8.5 D. You may want to get a bid in.


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

both appear to be shell - the rippling and darkening looks like that on my AE patriot shells (although I like the roll on the AE patriot better than either of those  )


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

They are both shell: keep in mind only shell cordovan creases in a _lighter_ shade (e.g. the Florsheims).

Takai, no wonder your black shell don't fit, they are a wide width. C = heel and E = toe box.


----------



## Stolz

I can't tell on this and I can't find the shoe code on Alden's site.


----------



## CMDC

^Yes.


----------



## sskim3

Vintage Black SHELL CORDOVAN Gunboat Longwings - Looks like shell to me. No brand and Buy it Now or Make an Offer for 79.99+6.50 or lower it could be a steal. looks like a 9.5E or 9.5EE seeing that the shoe measures 12 in by 4.5 in. I could be totally wrong. 
If its real, hope one of you gets a steal.


----------



## Pentheos

sskim3 said:


> *Vintage Black SHELL CORDOVAN Gunboat Longwings - Looks like shell to me. No brand and Buy it Now or Make an Offer for 79.99+6.50 or lower it could be a steal. looks like a 9.5E or 9.5EE seeing that the shoe measures 12 in by 4.5 in. I could be totally wrong. *
> 
> If its real, hope one of you gets a steal.


Yes, those are shell, and yes, that's a deal. They'll need at least a new set of heels, then GTG.


----------



## Cardinals5

sskim3 said:


> *- Looks like shell to me. No brand..*.


Florsheim imperials - five nails and the v-cleat.


----------



## leisureclass

I'm thinking these probably aren't, but:


----------



## CMDC

^I would say yes if I were guessing. Rippling looks right as does the puffing around the eyelets.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Definitely shell


----------



## sskim3

Found two in my size. Both have the ripple effect but I am skeptical that the Nunn Bush aren't and it also has a non-leather sole which doesnt help. The Jarman pics arent as clear but I am crossing my fingers.


----------



## CMDC

Definitely no on #2--lots of microcreasing
Dubious on #1 also


----------



## Takai

Based on what I can see on my phone I would say neither are, but I will wait for the more expierienced hunters to chim in


----------



## Orgetorix

Nope, neither of sskim's are shell.


----------



## leisureclass

Cardinals5 said:


> ^^ Definitely shell


Well crap, just blew up my own spot then because they're my size - thanks guys


----------



## zzdocxx

Noob here, check into this thread occasionally.

My 87 year old mom told me recently that back in the 40's and 50's when my father needed shoes, he would order from Florsheim as they had his custom last back at the factory. I don't suppose they do that anymore though. . . 

I have read previously that the old Florsheim shoes were a very nice product, but that the current ones are not so good.

Question is, how do you all generally feel about those Imperial Florsheim Cordovans like the ones seen on ebay? Are they still making them? If not, when did they stop making them? Are these older cordovans a good shoe? 

OK thanks!


----------



## Reuben

Old florsheims are arguably the best-constructed shoes ever produced by the American shoe industry. Old Nettletons, Florsheims, and Freeman (maybe French Shriner too?) are better than anything Alden can produce nowadays. That's no fault of Alden's, just a loss of skills in shoemaking and leather curing. . 


Sent from the USS Eldridge using Tapatalk


----------



## zzdocxx

Thanks Reuben.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The white creasing is a shell cordovan give away.


----------



## phyrpowr

sskim3 said:


> Found two in my size. Both have the ripple effect but I am skeptical that the Nunn Bush aren't and it also has a non-leather sole which doesnt help. The Jarman pics arent as clear but I am crossing my fingers.


No on the Nunn-Bush, but, I had a pair much like this that wore very nicely for over 15 years. If you can get them cheap ($30 or under), I'd go for them. Use it for a wet weather shoe


----------



## masernaut

Warning: Lots of pictures ahead
This looks to be a vintage pair of Bates shoes. Are these by any chance shell? I've never seen a Bates monk strap shoe.


----------



## Dieu et les Dames

Those monks look like shell to me. Welcome to the forum!


----------



## Takai

Not only do those look like shell, but they look like a fantastic shoe as well


----------



## Acme

I'll vote yes because the third pic shows white creases.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

110% certain to be shell, for the reason stated by Acme. Gorgeous shoes.


----------



## tweets_5

masernaut said:


> Warning: Lots of pictures ahead
> This looks to be a vintage pair of Bates shoes. Are these by any chance shell? I've never seen a Bates monk strap shoe.


About 99% sure I sold that pair on Ebay (the red 20 on the bottom looks real familiar), NIB, is the box still with them? Hopefully for you, they are shell but its so hard to tell on brand new shoes but I do remember those were a gorgeous color.


----------



## tweets_5

On a related note, if we can confirm they are shell (and my google searching looks like Bates did make shells), I have access to some more Bates that I can probably get fairly cheaply.


----------



## masernaut

Thanks, gents! The shoes are listed new but without the box. The shoes are on sale on Taobao, China's equivalent to eBay. The seller has a bunch of other vintage shoes, as well. Listed at about $100.


----------



## tweets_5

masernaut said:


> Thanks, gents! The shoes are listed new but without the box. The shoes are on sale on Taobao, China's equivalent to eBay. The seller has a bunch of other vintage shoes, as well. Listed at about $100.


Thanks for the info, definitely shoes I owned a few months ago, and he has quite a few other pairs I sold him. I was intrigued by where they all went and what he did with them.


----------



## masernaut

How interesting! An example of globalization at its finest. Vintage USA made shoes sold to a Chinese citizen and then bought up by a Canadian like me 

EDIT: While I've got you here, do you remember the width of the shoe by any chance? B/D/E?


----------



## tweets_5

masernaut said:


> How interesting! An example of globalization at its finest. Vintage USA made shoes sold to a Chinese citizen and then bought up by a Canadian like me
> 
> EDIT: While I've got you here, do you remember the width of the shoe by any chance? B/D/E?


They are 9B's, he's actually in Hong Kong (or at least that's where I shipped) and if it matters he bought them for $66, plus a decent amount in shipping.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

That's my size...... no wonder I find them so attractive!


----------



## masernaut

9B! That's a let down. I'm a 9D.


----------



## Fiddlermatt

I don't think these are shell, but I'm not aware of how to tell without being able to see creases and such from wear. Is there a possibility they could be?


----------



## Orgetorix

Fiddlermatt said:


> I don't think these are shell, but I'm not aware of how to tell without being able to see creases and such from wear. Is there a possibility they could be?


No, not shell. They're from Florsheim's regular (non-Imperial) line, which was made to a lower quality standard. The leather doesn't have the right sheen, and the lace holes and brogue holes don't have the right profile to be shell.


----------



## Fiddlermatt

Orgetorix said:


> No, not shell. They're from Florsheim's regular (non-Imperial) line, which was made to a lower quality standard. The leather doesn't have the right sheen, and the lace holes and brogue holes don't have the right profile to be shell.


Alright thanks. I assume they are calfskin then? I wonder if they are still worth picking up.


----------



## Orgetorix

Fiddlermatt said:


> Alright thanks. I assume they are calfskin then? I wonder if they are still worth picking up.


Probably CG, to be honest. I see those shoes in thrift stores all the time and they look pretty rough after being worn a while. I'd pass.


----------



## The Deacon

Reuben said:


> Old florsheims are arguably the best-constructed shoes ever produced by the American shoe industry. Old Nettletons, Florsheims, and Freeman (maybe French Shriner too?) are better than anything Alden can produce nowadays. That's no fault of Alden's, just a loss of skills in shoemaking and leather curing. .
> 
> Sent from the USS Eldridge using Tapatalk


definitely in agreement with the vintage brands stated, might I add the vintage spade sole J&M Aristocrafts as well?


----------



## catside

Bates are usually corfam, no?Hence they are leather lined. Can be indistinguishable from shell.

"Corfam was the centerpiece of the DuPont pavilion at the 1964 New York World's Fair in New York City. Its major advantages over natural leather were its durability and its high gloss finish that could be easily cleaned with a damp cloth. Its disadvantages were its stiffness which did not lessen with wearing, its relative lack of breathability, and easy confusion with non-breathable cheaper products. DuPont manufactured Corfam at its plant in Old Hickory, Tennessee, from 1964 to 1971. After spending millions of dollars marketing the product to shoe manufacturers, DuPont withdrew Corfam from the market in 1971 and sold the rights to a company in Poland.

Corfam is still used today in some products, an example being certain types of equestrian saddle girth. Corfam shoes are still popular in uniformed professions where shiny shoes are desirable."


----------



## dport86

Saw some vintage NOS corfam lwb's at the flea market on Sunday. Can't remember the brand but didn't recognize it. 

The dealer had priced them like shell ($180), and I was tempted (they were my size). Fortunately, I had my loupe with me, and only on the closest inspection did I find a place where the surface of the corfam was failing. Corfam was a surprisingly good facsimile of #8 shell cordovan when new. Caveat emptor.


----------



## Youthful Repp-robate

Thanks, y'all. Now I want shell monkstraps.



Reuben said:


> Old florsheims are arguably the best-constructed shoes ever produced by the American shoe industry. Old Nettletons, Florsheims, and Freeman (maybe French Shriner too?) are better than anything Alden can produce nowadays. That's no fault of Alden's, just a loss of skills in shoemaking and leather curing. .


I would add Stetson to that list.

vintageshoesaddict.com will demonstrate that the American shoe industry once rivaled the best of what Northampton puts out today.


----------



## JackFlash

I'm thinking not shell, but would love to be proven incorrect.


----------



## Orgetorix

JackFlash said:


> I'm thinking not shell, but would love to be proven incorrect.


I think you're correct.


----------



## JackFlash

Orgetorix said:


> I think you're correct.


Upon further inspection, looks like some microcreasing:


----------



## dkoernert

Thoughts? They look like shell to me but the pics aren't very good.


----------



## Reuben

Something about the leather's shine doesn't look quite right to me, seems flat and lifeless.

Edit: Also, I think those raised rolls would produce the sort of tension that just shreds shell. My vote is definitely not cordovan.


----------



## CMDC

I'm also a bit skeptical. For one, there's a lot of detailing which I think is harder to do with shell. Also, the heels look kind of cheap, like they wouldn't be used on a shell model--although I suppose they could be replacements.


----------



## Cardinals5

^^ Yep, CG - those are black man-made soles.


----------



## dkoernert

Cardinals5 said:


> ^^ Yep, CG - those are black man-made soles.


That was the one thing that made me think not shell. My shell-dar is ever improving but uncreased CG combined with bad photos can be tricky sometimes.


----------



## Acme

^Not shell. The creases don't look right to me.


----------



## Pentheos

Absolutely not shell.


----------



## The Deacon

Were on ebay and not labeled as shell. Now residing in my home!


----------



## hoosbadg

I have seen a couple of pairs of shoes on Ebay that are listed as shell cordovan but a couple of the photos show the inside of the shoe and the words "all leather shoe" is clearly seen. In this day and age I doubt any shoe manufacturer would label a shell cordovan shoe as "all leather" but in the past, I don't know. 

I have seen this twice and both shoes were Hanover Masterflex (not L.B. Sheppard) and these were from two different sellers. Are these shell cordovan? I am very suspicious.


----------



## Fiddlermatt

I don't know for sure about the first pair, but the second pair looks like shell to me. My LB Sheppards shells say "All Leather" on the inside. One thing I should warn you about, the pair I purchased has started to crack in some of the creases. I conditioned heavily with AE Cordovan cream and doused them with Lexol before wearing them, but it didn't save them.


----------



## The Deacon

hoosbadg said:


> I have seen a couple of pairs of shoes on Ebay that are listed as shell cordovan but a couple of the photos show the inside of the shoe and the words "all leather shoe" is clearly seen. In this day and age I doubt any shoe manufacturer would label a shell cordovan shoe as "all leather" but in the past, I don't know.
> 
> I have seen this twice and both shoes were Hanover Masterflex (not L.B. Sheppard) and these were from two different sellers. Are these shell cordovan? I am very suspicious.


I think they are both shell. I made a mistake about Hanover ptb in the recent past but rectified it by finding and buying a nice pair of Hanover shell ptb with great patina. I will post both to compare the differences in the next week.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Both pairs appear to be shell, they're creased white and there's no evidence of microcreasing.


----------



## Monocle

Vintage for AUSTIN REED. Curious about who made these in USA. (?)


----------



## frosejr

Monocle said:


> Vintage for AUSTIN REED. Curious about who made these in USA. (?)


Not sure who made them, but they are not shell.


----------



## Pentheos

Shell..................................................................................................................................................those shoes.


----------



## Monocle

frosejr said:


> Not sure who made them, but they are not shell.


I thought the look is was not quite right and the leather too pliable. But these are of substantial quality, My curiosity was piqued.


----------



## darkmark

I'm on the fence about this one, any thoughts????


----------



## CMDC

Absolutely shell.

No doubt.


----------



## Pentheos

CMDC said:


> Absolutely shell.
> 
> No doubt.


Agreed, shell.

If you want them, I'd say get them. I check ebay daily for shell in size 13. There aren't a lot of hits.


----------



## darkmark

Pentheos said:


> Agreed, shell.
> 
> If you want them, I'd say get them. I check ebay daily for shell in size 13. There aren't a lot of hits.


Me too. Im very tempted. Only problem is that I've only tried on one pair of Aldens (Norwegian I believe) so I'm kind of hesistant to pull the trigger.....worried about tightness across the top.


----------



## kevintullos

*Are these shell?*

i purchased them thinking they were regardless of the design. They look kinda new too. Anyone know any history of the AE Arlington model 3777?

thanks.

kev


----------



## Pentheos

Not shell, sorry.


----------



## Orgetorix

You should just assume kiltie tassel wingtip loafers are not shell. I've seen maybe one pair in shell in ten years, and I wouldn't even swear to that.

Also, kiltie-tassel-wingtip loafers are horrible.


----------



## kevintullos

*Thanks!!*



Orgetorix said:


> You should just assume kiltie tassel wingtip loafers are not shell. I've seen maybe one pair in shell in ten years, and I wouldn't even swear to that.
> 
> Also, kiltie-tassel-wingtip loafers are horrible.


Thanks for the responses!! I guess they will be great shoe to wear for when I want to embarrass the wife and kids. Lol!!


----------



## Clark Yin

Hey guys! do you know if these are shells? I'm pretty sure they are but i would like the forum's opinion!  Cheers!


----------



## Takai

Clark Yin said:


> Hey guys! do you know if these are shells? I'm pretty sure they are but i would like the forum's opinion!  Cheers!


Look good to me:thumbs-up:


----------



## Clark Yin

Takai said:


> Look good to me:thumbs-up:


Thanks for the reply!!!


----------



## Acme

Welcome, Clark Yin.

They're shell. If you're planning on buying them you should be aware they're size 12 C/A (that's buried in the fine print).


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Yes Clark, they are shell.


----------



## Clark Yin

Acme said:


> Welcome, Clark Yin.
> 
> They're shell. If you're planning on buying them you should be aware they're size 12 C/A (that's buried in the fine print).


Thank you Acme i'm glad to be here. May i ask what's wrong with 12C/A? I'm a size 11.5 Allen Edmond typically. I think i should fit fine in these? Or a i sorely mistaken?


----------



## Clark Yin

Thank you!


----------



## Clark Yin

Acme said:


> Welcome, Clark Yin.
> 
> They're shell. If you're planning on buying them you should be aware they're size 12 C/A (that's buried in the fine print).


Nevermind...I figured it out. It's a C And Narrow A Width front. I'm not sure if i'll fit into these now but i already bid on them. These will be my first cordovan shoes. Maybe it will be okay?


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

Clark Yin said:


> Thank you Acme i'm glad to be here. May i ask what's wrong with 12C/A? I'm a size 11.5 Allen Edmond typically. I think i should fit fine in these? Or a i sorely mistaken?


I have a pair of vintage bostonians (crown windsor) in calf which run short for their size (compared to AE) but are true-to-size in the width-- perhaps these will fit you alright. Don't forget to share pics if you find they fit well!


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

Clark Yin said:


> Nevermind...I figured it out. It's a C And Narrow A Width front. I'm not sure if i'll fit into these now but i already bid on them. These will be my first cordovan shoes. Maybe it will be okay?


Its an A heel and a C forefoot, i.e. the width is given as forefoot/heel


----------



## sskim3

So I found this on eBay, but the left shoe is a different shade of brown than the right shoe. With the typical care of shell, would I ever get the shade of brown similar or is this not worth my time:


----------



## tigerpac

For $150 they're a steal


----------



## Clark Yin

sleepyinsanfran said:


> Its an A heel and a C forefoot, i.e. the width is given as forefoot/heel


Yeah the ebay seller is super kind and he said that he would never sell an A Width without huge bringing up the information and he sold an AAA width to an Australian and he made sure he understood what it meant before shipping it to him or he would have canceled the order himself.

Renewed Faith!!! Very excited to receive them!


----------



## Clark Yin

sleepyinsanfran said:


> I have a pair of vintage bostonians (crown windsor) in calf which run short for their size (compared to AE) but are true-to-size in the width-- perhaps these will fit you alright. Don't forget to share pics if you find they fit well!


Thanks for the info! I'm very happy to hear that because i wear an 11.5. Renewed faith. I thought they might be a tad bid loose so this information makes me very happy. can't wait to receive them!

Will take many pics when i get them!


----------



## Clark Yin

sskim3 said:


> So I found this on eBay, but the left shoe is a different shade of brown than the right shoe. With the typical care of shell, would I ever get the shade of brown similar or is this not worth my time:


holy ****...Not worth your time? Definitely worth your time man! i'm jealous i wish i was that size! 150 is an amazing price for new allen edmond cordovan because they run at least 600. This means that the cork did not get altered so it's brand new cork and they will mould to your foot like glue, they will feel amazing compared to an old one! If you do get them please do share some pics! a nice buff from a cobbler will be fine! plus overtime the leather colour will wear and it will look nice either way. I slight colour shade is unique and awesome like a manufacture mistake on a coin or something !


----------



## Steve Smith

sskim3 said:


> So I found this on eBay, but the left shoe is a different shade of brown than the right shoe. With the typical care of shell, would I ever get the shade of brown similar or is this not worth my time:


The left shoe was a store display while the right shoe stayed in a box in the back. Reverse the process to even out the color. It will take a while. A good cobbler might be able to do it with polish/dye. Either way these shoes are a screaming steal. I am surprised that they are still available.


----------



## sskim3

Steve Smith said:


> The left shoe was a store display while the right shoe stayed in a box in the back. Reverse the process to even out the color. It will take a while. A good cobbler might be able to do it with polish/dye. Either way these shoes are a screaming steal. I am surprised that they are still available.


FML. it turned into an auction instead of buy it now. Now i need to fight the bidders. can i retract my original posting? hahaha i think i opened it up to the public.


----------



## dkoernert

sskim3 said:


> FML. it turned into an auction instead of buy it now. Now i need to fight the bidders. can i retract my original posting? hahaha i think i opened it up to the public.


Boy do I hate it when that happens. I'm sure those will end way north of $200.


----------



## tigerpac

Good luck, even at 200-300 they are a deal. AE Seconds Shell usually go for $399 on sale, though I've heard of $299 on occasion.


----------



## sskim3

tigerpac said:


> Good luck, even at 200-300 they are a deal. AE Seconds Shell usually go for $399 on sale, though I've heard of $299 on occasion.


Already went on my buying spree for the month. Hmmm... now if there was a way to hide this purchase from the significant other... let's see how that goes.


----------



## Bandit44

Unmarked shell Florsheim Yumas, Size 9E. No question, these are the real deal.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The listing has been ended. Great shoes that looked like they'd truly been worn a handful of times. Hopefully one of you got them.


----------



## Steve Smith

Shell or not shell? Rancourt.


----------



## Takai

Steve Smith said:


> Shell or not shell? Rancourt.


I am going to put my money on that pony. The far shoe seems to have the correct sheen


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

If one goes by the stated price and what's written on it yes.

As far as the pics go, there's not much obvious creasing, except on the right shoe and the picture isn't close enough.

I'd venture a yes.


----------



## vegtan

Alden black shell cordovan 13Ds that got away. https://fityn.com/more-alden-shell-cordovan-labeled-leather/ Mislabeled as leather, wrong shoe style number. Have the eBay seller's name on my Follow list. Sold for $149 compared to median for used PTBs at $232.25.


----------



## vegtan

Alden shell cord split toe lovers. Double mislabeling. Shell cordovan identified as leather, Alden split toes called Allen Edmonds. Size 10D, ends June 11 4:58 p.m. PDT. https://fityn.com/alden-shell-cordovan-mislabeled-as-allen-edmonds-leather/


----------



## gamma68

I believe these are indeed shell, but are they too far gone to pick up? I'm looking to enhance my footwear and am starting to explore Florsheim.


----------



## Takai

gamma68 said:


> I believe these are indeed shell, but are they too far gone to pick up? I'm looking to enhance my footwear and am starting to explore Florsheim.


Unless they're cracking bad, they look like they could use a good resole and they'll be good to go, if it stays low, then I'd say jump on 'em


----------



## frosejr

gamma68 said:


> I believe these are indeed shell, but are they too far gone to pick up? I'm looking to enhance my footwear and am starting to explore Florsheim.


If you can get them for somewhere around the minimum, you should be OK. However the only thing you should do with these is send them to B Nelson. They have already been resoled once, and you have no way to know the quality of that job. It may have been well done, or it may have been a hack job. You also have no way of knowing whether they've ever been half-soled, which involves (many times) damaging the structure of the shoe. I pretty much limit myself now to buying shoes that are still on their first soles. I pass on some stuff that I really like, but unless something is really unique, you'll see it again.


----------



## gamma68

frosejr said:


> If you can get them for somewhere around the minimum, you should be OK. However the only thing you should do with these is send them to B Nelson. They have already been resoled once, and you have no way to know the quality of that job. It may have been well done, or it may have been a hack job. You also have no way of knowing whether they've ever been half-soled, which involves (many times) damaging the structure of the shoe. I pretty much limit myself now to buying shoes that are still on their first soles. I pass on some stuff that I really like, but unless something is really unique, you'll see it again.


Good points. I think I'll pass and wait for another pair.


----------



## vegtan

Definitely shell. 93605 is a Florsheim shell cordovan style number and tops have shell cord folds, not leather wrinkles. You can get better without the holes with some waiting. Per eValuator mobile app, used Florsheim 93605s with great soles and heels have sold recently at auction average price $99.99, BIN $68.89.


----------



## ytc

quick!


----------



## Acme

^Those aren't shell.


----------



## Pentheos

ytc said:


> quick!


No horse there, no sir.


----------



## ytc

Pentheos said:


> No horse there, no sir.


sad


----------



## Steve Smith

Steve Smith said:


> Shell or not shell? Rancourt.


They are shell, right down to the Horween stamp on the unlined part of the interior.


----------



## vegtan

Another pair of shell cordovan penny loafers labeled as leather. Alden for Brooks Brothers. eBay item number 321436579074 This is a repeat of a twofer pair from last week. These did not sell, seller relisted at $89 opening bid. Recent eBay median sale price for used shell cord BB penny loafers: $152.50.


----------



## Dmontez

This guy has a history of trying to pass of calf as shell, and then when confronted saying that he is referring to the color as cordovan. I just wanted to get the expertise of this thread before I report his item to eBay.


----------



## frosejr

Definitely not shell...but he's not calling them shell.



Dmontez said:


> This guy has a history of trying to pass of calf as shell, and then when confronted saying that he is referring to the color as cordovan. I just wanted to get the expertise of this thread before I report his item to eBay.


----------



## Dmontez

The way he worded his description makes me think he's calling them shell cordovan without using the word shell. I know that some companies call burgundy "cordovan" but AE does not. He should have called the merlot.

I clicked on his add because I saw cordovan and MacNeil leading me to believe it would be shell, and had I not known to look for the micro creasing I still would have thought shell.


----------



## drlivingston

What do you guys think about these?


----------



## CMDC

I say yes.


----------



## Pentheos

Absolutely shell.


----------



## drlivingston

I can barely read the model number. They are Sears & Roebuck v-cleat. I assume they were made by Florsheim but the numbers don't match Cardinal's list for Florsheim longwings. I guess Sears would have their own unique numbering system.


----------



## Reuben

drlivingston said:


> I can barely read the model number. They are Sears & Roebuck v-cleat. I assume they were made by Florsheim but the numbers don't match Cardinal's list for Florsheim longwings. I guess Sears would have their own unique numbering system.


I've got an identical pair of Sears shells.


----------



## Orgetorix

Shell, without a doubt. Almost certainly made by Hanover - they're the only ones I know of that put a seam on the wingtip at the outside of the heel.


----------



## drlivingston

Thanks guys. It is what I figured (except for the knowledge that Org dropped on me about the side seem:thumbs-up. There is a minor bit of chipping around the top of the collar. So, all in all, they will make a good pair of beater shells for someone.


----------



## Orgetorix

drlivingston said:


> Thanks guys. It is what I figured (except for the knowledge that Org dropped on me about the side seem:thumbs-up. There is a minor bit of chipping around the top of the collar. So, all in all, they will make a good pair of beater shells for someone.


If they are 11E/11.5D, I might know who that someone could be...


----------



## drlivingston

Orgetorix said:


> If they are 11E/11.5D, I might know who that someone could be...


Almost... but, not quite. They are 10.5D.


----------



## Orgetorix

drlivingston said:


> Almost... but, not quite. They are 10.5D.


CMDC may be your man, in that case!


----------



## sskim3

Can't tell if I am seeing micro creasing. Thoughts?


----------



## drlivingston

sskim3 said:


> Can't tell if I am seeing micro creasing. Thoughts?


If my eyes aren't deceiving me, they are Hanover model number 2351. #8 shell cordovan!


----------



## frosejr

sskim3 said:


> Can't tell if I am seeing micro creasing. Thoughts?


Those are shell. Let an expert like B Nelson do the resoles though.


----------



## sskim3

frosejr said:


> Those are shell. Let an expert like B Nelson do the resoles though.


Awesome. Now if only this goes under the radar and I can score it for a good price!


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The radar indicates 14 watchers. You'd better load up your sniping tool...


----------



## sskim3

$80 w/ $10 shipping - size 10.5 B which seems like a steal


----------



## sskim3

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> The radar indicates 14 watchers. You'd better load up your sniping tool...


I FRIGGIN SUCK...... lost against $75.00 - was hoping to keep it under $200 for cost of auction + b nelson recrafting service. pipe dream..... back to square one.


----------



## Takai

sskim3 said:


> I FRIGGIN SUCK...... lost against $75.00 - was hoping to keep it under $200 for cost of auction + b nelson recrafting service. pipe dream..... back to square one.


Dont feel so bad, the other day I lost out on a nice pair of Hanover gunboats in a 7.5D size at about 40$, there were 3 bidders, 2 of us knew they were shell, one of us wanted them much more than the other.


----------



## Reuben

sskim3 said:


> I FRIGGIN SUCK...... lost against $75.00 - was hoping to keep it under $200 for cost of auction + b nelson recrafting service. pipe dream..... back to square one.


Keep an eye out and learn what you're looking for. I've paid about half that for all five pairs of shell longwings I've owned. Two weren't listed as shell (Burgundy Sears & Whiskey Freemans), two were but were poorly listed (cordwainer wright and Bostonian, both burgundy), and one came from CMDC on the exchange (hanover, same as the sears).


----------



## sskim3

Reuben said:


> Keep an eye out and learn what you're looking for. I've paid about half that for all five pairs of shell longwings I've owned. Two weren't listed as shell (Burgundy Sears & Whiskey Freemans), two were but were poorly listed (cordwainer wright and Bostonian, both burgundy), and one came from CMDC on the exchange (hanover, same as the sears).


So out of frustration, I may have overpaid for my new two pair of shells, but I will finally fill the void of not having shell at all.

*1st Pair - Florsheim Shell Cordovan PTB* w/ new Heel/Topys for $120 with shipping. With the new heel and topy, I think this is a bargain since it would cost me extra to get this done. 

















*2nd Pair - Florsheim Imperial Gunboat Longwings for $77.95 with shipping. *Depending on the condition, I may just send these off to B Nelson for some work.


----------



## frosejr

sskim3 said:


> So out of frustration, I may have overpaid for my new two pair of shells, but I will finally fill the void of not having shell at all.
> 
> *1st Pair - Florsheim Shell Cordovan PTB* w/ new Heel/Topys for $120 with shipping. With the new heel and topy, I think this is a bargain since it would cost me extra to get this done.
> 
> *2nd Pair - Florsheim Imperial Gunboat Longwings for $77.95 with shipping. *Depending on the condition, I may just send these off to B Nelson for some work.


FWIW, I think you did well on both. I have seen people pay more for shoes that have been worn down to nubs, hacked up with half-soles, etc etc. Looks like you got two pairs in pretty much original intact condition, limited wear, no cracks that I could see, and you're in them for less than $200 so far. Even if you have B Nelson completely redo the wings (which I think is unnecessary, a new set of heels would do it for now), you're in both pairs for under $300.

Bravo!


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

agree - both of the above are in better condition than the hanover (where the uppers on the left shoe seemed dodgy with faint signs of cracking).


----------



## Bandit44

sleepyinsanfran said:


> agree - both of the above are in better condition than the hanover (where the uppers on the left shoe seemed dodgy with faint signs of cracking).


Agree. Those Hanovers were waaay overpriced. With a resole, you've invested $200 in a pair of shoes that very well might crack on you in a few months.


----------



## sskim3

Bandit44 said:


> Agree. Those Hanovers were waaay overpriced. With a resole, you've invested $200 in a pair of shoes that very well might crack on you in a few months.


Thanks guys - hopefully I'll get them soon in the mail and show them off in the WAYW threads. Now I have to hide the fact that I got two new shoes from the significant other.


----------



## wacolo

. The pictures are clear, but small.


----------



## tweets_5

wacolo said:


> . The pictures are clear, but small.


I bought a couple pairs from that seller that were shell (let's say I made 4-500) and we ended up having a discussion about shell and I don't remember the details but even with some better pictures he sent me, I wasn't completely confident they were shell and by that point he had figured out they might be and raised the price. I think if they are shell, they're a good price but the marketability just isnt there for L&H.


----------



## vegtan

tweets_5 said:


> I bought a couple pairs from that seller that were shell (let's say I made 4-500) and we ended up having a discussion about shell and I don't remember the details but even with some better pictures he sent me, I wasn't completely confident they were shell and by that point he had figured out they might be and raised the price. I think if they are shell, they're a good price but the marketability just isnt there for L&H.


English made per the instep stamp. Based on info from classicshoesformen.com, "In the early 70's they were approached by a British firm of Joseph Cheaney and, at that time, reintroduced English shoes to their line but Lloyd & Haig designed almost all their own styles and chose materials to fit." Looking to turn them, can advertise as vintage Cheaneys if they bring a higher eBay price.


----------



## vegtan

Concur Hanover -- I've also never seen another pair except Hanover with side seams. I've identified several unknowns by that feature.


----------



## frosejr

vegtan said:


> Concur Hanover -- I've also never seen another pair except Hanover with side seams. I've identified several unknowns by that feature.


Hanover made lots of private label shoes for other vendors. I remember going into their outlet store on the square in Hanover, PA (when outlet stores were REALLY outlet stores) and seeing shoes in boxes I didn't recognize.


----------



## CrazyLarry

Hello Everyone. I've been lurking for about about month. Stumbled onto AAAC after finding 5 pairs of Allen Edmonds in my size for $3 each. Score!

I would like to play the Shell Game. I don't know anything about the shoes below because I can't make out the makers name but I think they might be Cordovan. I shined one shoe and left the other in its original condition. Anything you can tell me about the shoe would be appreciated. Really hoping I didn't waste my $2.30.



https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip1_zps62b6a3b7.jpg

https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip2_zps43a07548.jpg

https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip4_zps218071c9.jpg

https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip6_zps503e283f.jpg

https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip5_zps57d3cac2.jpg


----------



## AlanC

^ Shell


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Welcome to AAAC!

I agree with AlanC.

Nice job shining them up too!


----------



## CrazyLarry

Excellent. Thanks for the replies. I guess I now have to shine the other shoe and see if I can remove the foam pad that someone decided to glue to the insole. Any idea on the Maker? All I can make out is it ends in an "S" - as shown in the last photo.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I know that the name I will propose is pure heresy on my part, but could the "S" actually be the first letter in the name as opposed to the last? If so, I'd venture Stafford.


----------



## CrazyLarry

Yes, I'm sure on this site that name could start a fight.

I did a little more cleaning on the insole. Now it looks like the maker's name ends in "G'S" (G apostrophe S). Can't think of any brands ending in that. Even if these did turn out to be Stafford that would be okay. I mainly bought them to a) see if I could actually identify Shell Cordovan in the wild and b) to see how well I could revitalize dusty, beaten up Shell Cordovan. I think I did okay considering I have no deer bone.

Seriously - a deer bone? Who came up with that? I just picture a little gray-headed cobbler rubbing hundreds of various objects on leather until he finally starts rubbing leftovers from his venison dinner.


----------



## Acme

^Actually, it was elves.

And it wouldn't matter if it was Stafford (or Stacy Adams, for that matter). Shell is shell. 

Nice shoes, may you find many more in your travels.


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

CrazyLarry said:


> Yes, I'm sure on this site that name could start a fight.
> 
> I did a little more cleaning on the insole. Now it looks like the maker's name ends in "G'S" (G apostrophe S). Can't think of any brands ending in that. Even if these did turn out to be Stafford that would be okay. I mainly bought them to a) see if I could actually identify Shell Cordovan in the wild and b) to see how well I could revitalize dusty, beaten up Shell Cordovan. I think I did okay considering I have no deer bone.
> 
> Seriously - a deer bone? Who came up with that? I just picture a little gray-headed cobbler rubbing hundreds of various objects on leather until he finally starts rubbing leftovers from his venison dinner.


That might be Hanig's then - a private label shoe. Maker is unclear ofcourse, since Hanig's is a store label and not a manufacturer


----------



## drlivingston

CrazyLarry said:


> Seriously - a deer bone? Who came up with that? I just picture a little gray-headed cobbler rubbing hundreds of various objects on leather until he finally starts rubbing leftovers from his venison dinner.


I might just have to borrow that for my signature line. Too funny!!


----------



## CrazyLarry

sleepyinsanfran said:


> That might be Hanig's then - a private label shoe. Maker is unclear ofcourse, since Hanig's is a store label and not a manufacturer


Thanks, Sleepy. I just checked the Hanig's website - currently all Shell is Alden. I really doubt I'm going to get that lucky with these two dollar shoes - but one can dream. I'll keep trying to remove the glue and foam and see if I can reveal any more of the name.


----------



## CrazyLarry

Okay, one more time. If I've gotten this one right I will promote myself from Cordovan Novice to Cordovan Intermediate and start my thrift store quest for my holy grail - Shell Cordovan Chukka Boots. I know, I know - but a boy can dream.

This model (93232) is not listed on the Hunter's Guide but model 93231 is listed as Florsheim Shell Tassels (#8). I'm hoping the list might just need to be updated to include Florsheim Shell Penny Loafers (#8). Unfortunately, all the writing on the inside heel is worn off so I don't actually know that they are Florsheim. I'm just assuming they are based on the consecutive model number.

Yes, they are pretty dirty. If they aren't Cordovan, they will probably be donated back to the thrift store from which they came. Okay, gentlemen - what's the verdict?


----------



## tweets_5

CrazyLarry said:


> Okay, one more time. If I've gotten this one right I will promote myself from Cordovan Novice to Cordovan Intermediate and start my thrift store quest for my holy grail - Shell Cordovan Chukka Boots. I know, I know - but a boy can dream.
> 
> This model (93232) is not listed on the Hunter's Guide but model 93231 is listed as Florsheim Shell Tassels (#8). I'm hoping the list might just need to be updated to include Florsheim Shell Penny Loafers (#8). Unfortunately, all the writing on the inside heel is worn off so I don't actually know that they are Florsheim. I'm just assuming they are based on the consecutive model number.
> 
> Yes, they are pretty dirty. If they aren't Cordovan, they will probably be donated back to the thrift store from which they came. Okay, gentlemen - what's the verdict?


Shell, going to make your forearms hurt cleaning those up...

That's a model of Florsheim thats on another list I have.


----------



## CrazyLarry

tweets_5 said:


> Shell, going to make your forearms hurt cleaning those up...
> 
> That's a model of Florsheim thats on another list I have.


Thanks for the reply and how might one get that other list?


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I agree they are shell, but in such bad (read: destroyed) shape that I would have left them on the shelf.

If anything can be done with them, the board's consensus would be to send them to B. Nelson.


----------



## drlivingston

Take them to Upside Down shoe repair in Homewood. He can make them presentable. However, B. Nelson can make them beautiful... but it will cost you.


----------



## Pentheos

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> I agree they are shell, but in such bad (read: destroyed) shape that I would have left them on the shelf.
> 
> If anything can be done with them, the board's consensus would be to send them to B. Nelson.


Yeah, them kicks need more than a bit of Mac treatment. If you have the money, restore them; if you don't, return them. Bonus points for the oxidized pennies.


----------



## wacolo

You can always pull an Org and make yourself a watchband .


----------



## CrazyLarry

drlivingston said:


> Take them to Upside Down shoe repair in Homewood. He can make them presentable. However, B. Nelson can make them beautiful... but it will cost you.


Thanks Dr L. I actually was looking for local recommendation for another pair of shoes. Considering these shoes are not in my size and cost $1.98, I don't see myself putting much money in them. However, since they are Shell, I will do my best to find them a good home.


----------



## drlivingston

wacolo said:


> You can always pull an Org and make yourself a watchband .


Org is crazy gifted like that... Remember what he did with that La Pavoni?


----------



## mhj

CrazyLarry said:


> Hello Everyone. I've been lurking for about about month. Stumbled onto AAAC after finding 5 pairs of Allen Edmonds in my size for $3 each. Score!
> 
> I would like to play the Shell Game. I don't know anything about the shoes below because I can't make out the makers name but I think they might be Cordovan. I shined one shoe and left the other in its original condition. Anything you can tell me about the shoe would be appreciated. Really hoping I didn't waste my $2.30.
> 
> 
> 
> https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip1_zps62b6a3b7.jpg
> 
> https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip2_zps43a07548.jpg
> 
> https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip4_zps218071c9.jpg
> 
> https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip6_zps503e283f.jpg
> 
> https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/.../Wingtips_Cordovan_1/Wingtip5_zps57d3cac2.jpg


Those appear to be a pair of Allen Edmonds Cambridge's, https://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF8605_1_40000000001_-1_

I have a pair too that I picked up a few years ago for $35, but I'm not complaining.


----------



## Bandit44

These showed up on one of my saved searches. Once in a while, a seller will list the width of a shoe based on the heel, not the forefoot. Alas, these were listed correctly. If you are a 13AA and in need of a pair of longwings, I'd jump on these Hanovers.


----------



## frosejr

CrazyLarry said:


> I would like to play the Shell Game.


Congrats! You win! They're nice shell, and you'll enjoy them for many years. If the soles haven't been redone by another cobbler, AE will recraft them for you if it's ever necessary. Advice though: make sure they understand clearly that you want them to preserve the lighter reddish color (if in fact you want them to). I've seen several pairs of older shell that were a cherry-type color when they went in, and their current darker burgundy when they came out.


----------



## frosejr

Bandit44 said:


> These showed up on one of my saved searches. Once in a while, a seller will list the width of a shoe based on the heel, not the forefoot. Alas, these were listed correctly. If you are a 13AA and in need of a pair of longwings, I'd jump on these Hanovers.


As a groupie of vintage Hanovers, especially shell longwings and ESPECIALLY NOS, those things make me wanna shave the sides of my 12C feet down.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

If anyone sees any 11.5C (or 11D, 11.5B or 12C depending on the make) shells or has some to sell, please let me know! 

I have two florsheim shell longwings and always want more. Oh, and I just purchased AE Leeds PTB!


----------



## CrazyLarry

frosejr said:


> Congrats! You win! They're nice shell, and you'll enjoy them for many years. If the soles haven't been redone by another cobbler, AE will recraft them for you if it's ever necessary. Advice though: make sure they understand clearly that you want them to preserve the lighter reddish color (if in fact you want them to). I've seen several pairs of older shell that were a cherry-type color when they went in, and their current darker burgundy when they came out.


Thanks. I dropped these off at a local cobbler (suggested by DrLivingston) today to have some stitching fixed. I don't know if he will shine them also - I just assumed that if he did shine them that he would keep the color the same. I guess that might have been a mistake. However, since these are not my size, I'll probably end up trying to trade or sell these.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

Take a look at these: 



seller says they are shell cordovan. I don't think they are. I know that the Grayson came in shell. But, these look like calfskin.


----------



## Acme

^Not shell. Definitely.


----------



## DLW

I found these shoes when thrifting a few weeks ago and wonder if they are shell. Only ever seeing shell shoes here on the form, I not sure if I would know a pair if I came across them in the wild. I get somewhat confused with the creases vs wrinkles so I not sure if you would call the lines across the vamp of the shoes (especially the left shoe) creases or wrinkles. On the inside, if you hold a flashlight, one can see a top of a crown and part of the word signature on the sole.

Inside shoe side heal has printed,
Combination Last
9 ½ D/B 7 247601
2168
I hope they are shell. Gentlemen be the judge.

https://s1347.photobucket.com/user/SpencerMcVay/media/Picture021_zpsfa53abc1.jpg.html

https://s1347.photobucket.com/user/SpencerMcVay/media/Picture019_zps1b7e4dea.jpg.html

https://s1347.photobucket.com/user/SpencerMcVay/media/Picture_zpsb8b2023f.jpg.html

More photos located on photobucket

Forgot to state the shoes are Hanover


----------



## CrazyLarry

According to the Hunter's Guide: Shell Cordovan Hanover model 2168 is Shell.


----------



## Acme

Agreed, Shell.


----------



## drlivingston

Acme said:


> ^Not shell. Definitely.


Agreed. Not only are they not shell, they aren't even merlot... they are brown burnished calf.


----------



## CMDC

Did Florsheim ever do shell in colors other than #8 and black??? Every once in a while I see an ebay listing--usually with lousy photography--that has me wondering. I've never seen a definitive example though.


----------



## drlivingston

CMDC said:


> Did Florsheim ever do shell in colors other than #8 and black??? Every once in a while I see an ebay listing--usually with lousy photography--that has me wondering. I've never seen a definitive example though.


Personally, I haven't seen any other colors from the factory for Florsheim. That being said, I have picked up some that have had the color altered by polish-happy owners.


----------



## Orgetorix

I have seen one or two lighter-colored examples, but I'm 99% positive they were sun- and age-faded examples of #8.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

I am 99% sure that these are not shell, but I guess I have enough of a doubt that I'm asking. They are Bragano and soft leather except for the top of the toe box (whatever you call that part). They were not listed as Cordovan when I bought them. But, the seller didn't know much about Bragano. 

They are the right color, the feel is stiff, has the depth of color that cordovan has, but I'm just not sure and I think they have some hairline creases.


----------



## dkoernert

I think your initial assumption is correct. It looks to me like there is micro-creasing on the upper of both shoes.


----------



## drlivingston

They are quite possible deerskin with a calf vamp. Cole Haan Bragano and Mezlan have both employed that combo.


----------



## drlivingston

Looking forward to a little quality time...

https://s1326.photobucket.com/user/...livingston01138/DSCN9851_zps12197230.jpg.html


----------



## Nobleprofessor

drlivingston said:


> They are quite possible deerskin with a calf vamp. Cole Haan Bragano and Mezlan have both employed that combo.


i think you are right. I sold a pair if that style Mezlan. Well, I bought these Braganos because I liked them not because I thought they were shell.


----------



## pwhl

Hello all,

Long time lurker here.

I bought a pair of Florsheim Imperials on eBay, and after receiving the shoes, I suspect they are not shell for two reasons:

1. The numbering in the shoe is 639031, which is not one of the numbers I have found online for shell. 
2. The creases in the shoe look to have some subtle micro-creasing (although I can't tell this for sure as I've never owned any shell before).

Can you take a look at the listing and give me your opinion before I send these back to the seller?

Thank you for your help.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

pwhl said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Long time lurker here.
> 
> I bought a pair of Florsheim Imperials on eBay, and after receiving the shoes, I suspect they are not shell for two reasons:
> 
> 1. The numbering in the shoe is 639031, which is not one of the numbers I have found online for shell.
> 2. The creases in the shoe look to have some subtle micro-creasing (although I can't tell this for sure as I've never owned any shell before).
> 
> Can you take a look at the listing and give me your opinion before I send these back to the seller?
> 
> Thank you for your help.


I'm not an expert, but I don't think those are shell. They are very nice, but I think they are calf. But, please wait for an expert to opine. I hope I'm wrong because you are going to have to fight with the seller.


----------



## drlivingston

pwhl said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Long time lurker here.
> 
> I bought a pair of Florsheim Imperials on eBay, and after receiving the shoes, I suspect they are not shell for two reasons:
> 
> 1. The numbering in the shoe is 639031, which is not one of the numbers I have found online for shell.
> 2. The creases in the shoe look to have some subtle micro-creasing (although I can't tell this for sure as I've never owned any shell before).
> 
> Can you take a look at the listing and give me your opinion before I send these back to the seller?
> 
> Thank you for your help.


Aside from the numbers that you have given, do you see any of these 5-digit sets on numbers on the inside of the shoes?
93605 / 97626 / 78006


----------



## Orgetorix

They sure look like shell to me. I have a pair of shell Nettletons that, when I got them, I could swear had microcreasing in the folds. I finally realized it was just either old polish built up or the natural roughness that some shells develop.


----------



## pwhl

Nobleprofessor said:


> I'm not an expert, but I don't think those are shell. They are very nice, but I think they are calf. But, please wait for an expert to opine. I hope I'm wrong because you are going to have to fight with the seller.





drlivingston said:


> Aside from the numbers that you have given, do you see any of these 5-digit sets on numbers on the inside of the shoes?
> 93605 / 97626 / 78006


drlivingston - Aha! On second look, there is a number under the "639031", and it is one of the shell numbers (93605).

Thanks for the replies - sometimes just need a second nudge to look again.


----------



## pwhl

Orgetorix said:


> They sure look like shell to me. I have a pair of shell Nettletons that, when I got them, I could swear had microcreasing in the folds. I finally realized it was just either old polish built up or the natural roughness that some shells develop.


Thanks for the reply - yeah hopefully a clean up will make the folds and the shoe look cleaner.


----------



## drlivingston

Wear them in good health, my friend! They are beautiful shoes. Now take proper care of them and get some trees in there.


----------



## pwhl

Yep, trees in and looking forward to some quality time this weekend with them! Thanks again.


----------



## Acme

pwhl said:


> Thanks for the reply - yeah hopefully a clean up will make the folds and the shoe look cleaner.


I'm a bit late to the party, but yes, those are shell. Enjoy!


----------



## Jayzz

Another stalker of this thread..
Just took the jump to purchase my first pair.

Advice dear wise ones:



Shell or not shell?


----------



## Nobleprofessor

My opinion is shell. It is just starving for some nourishment. If you could find someone with a deer bone who also knows how to use it, I think it would really help to restore some of the fats and oils that have dried out over the years.


----------



## Jayzz

Thanks for the answer 8)
Do happen to know a guy with a deer bone, might ask to test it out!


----------



## Acme

Welcome, Jayzz. Yes, those shoes are shell.


----------



## drlivingston

Definitely shell. I, for one, would be hesitant about sending a deer bone to a foreign country. Customs can be a little touchy about such matters.


----------



## Jayzz

Oh my friend happens to have bought one already..I think just a week or two ago.. This will be fun.. 
My first time at any shoe restoration..


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

I looked at the eay page, and thats a lot of deer-bone-ing to do! for restoring a pair in its entirety, you might have better luck with something like venetian shoe cream or saphir renovateur


----------



## Jayzz

sleepyinsanfran said:


> I looked at the eay page, and thats a lot of deer-bone-ing to do! for restoring a pair in its entirety, you might have better luck with something like venetian shoe cream or saphir renovateur


 That's even better I have a bottle at home, any advice on how would you, go abt restoring it? Been looking around and there are quite a few methods...


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

I would suggest looking at this post (https://www.styleforum.net/t/146589/why-shell-cordovan-is-the) and others at AAAC and elsewhere

the general idea is - wipe down with damp (not soaking wet, just damp) cloth --> then let dry for several hrs --> then vigorously brush (at least 10 mins) till most of the dirt is off --> then spread small amounts of VSC (or saphir reno- I dont have the latter) with an old t shirt all over the shoes --> then let sit for a day --> next day brush again vigorously ...

I dont know how beat up your shoes are, but brushing a lot is the way to go (and use wax or vsc sparingly)


----------



## drlivingston

I have also started experimenting with Saphir neutral Cordovan cream. Good stuff...


----------



## Nobleprofessor

Could these be shell? The seller doesn't say either way


----------



## Nobleprofessor

Another pair? I'm suspicious of these?


----------



## drlivingston

No on both...


----------



## Bandit44

^ Agree


----------



## Nobleprofessor

drlivingston said:


> No on both...


On the J&M I can understand. It doesn't look right and there is fine hairline creases. But, how can you tell on the Loakes? They don't have any wear?


----------



## drlivingston

Nobleprofessor said:


> On the J&M I can understand. It doesn't look right and there is fine hairline creases. But, how can you tell on the Loakes? They don't have any wear?


They are just a barely worn example of the Loake 771T (burgundy polished leather). They also come in the 771B (you guessed it, black). When the Loakes get older, like the J&Ms, you will see the same non-shell evidence.


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

drlivingston said:


> They are just a barely worn example of the Loake 771T (burgundy polished leather). They also come in the 771B (you guessed it, black). When the Loakes get older, like the J&Ms, you will see the same non-shell evidence.


+1 
also Loake's polished leather is lower-end corrected grain, and not the better quality CG like you would find on Church's polished binder or the older Grenson made-in-england lines


----------



## mhj

sleepyinsanfran said:


> I would suggest looking at this post (https://www.styleforum.net/t/146589/why-shell-cordovan-is-the) and others at AAAC and elsewhere
> 
> the general idea is - wipe down with damp (not soaking wet, just damp) cloth --> then let dry for several hrs --> then vigorously brush (at least 10 mins) till most of the dirt is off --> then spread small amounts of VSC (or saphir reno- I dont have the latter) with an old t shirt all over the shoes --> then let sit for a day --> next day brush again vigorously ...
> 
> I dont know how beat up your shoes are, but brushing a lot is the way to go (and use wax or vsc sparingly)


I've been wondering what's the consensus on which to apply first, VSC or cordovan shoe cream if you're using it to restore the color.


----------



## Reuben

mhj said:


> I've been wondering what's the consensus on which to apply first, VSC or cordovan shoe cream if you're using it to restore the color.


I'd make sure it's good and moisturized first with the VSC then use the AE cordovan creme sparingly if it's still too light for you. The VSC shouldn't change the color of shell but dry shell may darken some just from being rehydrated.


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

^ +1 ... although VSC can strip a little bit of color (from the finish or from excess polish), especially if applied with a horsehair dauber... So VSC first and then some pigmenting cream or wax if needed. I should add that VSC shouldn't be used too often since it has been rumored to contain turpentine, which is supposed to be bad for leather if used too frequently


----------



## Acme

drlivingston said:


> They are just a barely worn example of the Loake 771T (burgundy polished leather). They also come in the 771B (you guessed it, black). When the Loakes get older, like the J&Ms, you will see the same non-shell evidence.


Also, if you look closely you can see creases.


----------



## mhj

Reuben said:


> I'd make sure it's good and moisturized first with the VSC then use the AE cordovan creme sparingly if it's still too light for you. The VSC shouldn't change the color of shell but dry shell may darken some just from being rehydrated.


I wish I would have asked sooner. This is a thrifted pair of Alden LWB I got last year that seem to have come from an abusive home. I polished with AE cordovan cream then VSC and they're too dark for my taste, although probably in the acceptable range.

This is them before I touched them









Now they are more like this image I picked up from Google









I think I would have liked the color better if I just used VSC.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

mhj said:


> I wish I would have asked sooner. This is a thrifted pair of Alden LWB I got last year that seem to have come from an abusive home. I polished with AE cordovan cream then VSC and they're too dark for my taste, although probably in the acceptable range.
> 
> This is them before I touched them
> 
> View attachment 12258
> 
> 
> Now they are more like this image I picked up from Google
> 
> View attachment 12259
> 
> 
> I think I would have liked the color better if I just used VSC.


if you don't like the color, what are you going to do with them? Sell them to NobleProfessor?


----------



## drlivingston

Nobleprofessor said:


> if you don't like the color, what are you going to do with them? Sell them to NobleProfessor?


Where's 32 at? :biggrin:


----------



## mhj

Nobleprofessor said:


> if you don't like the color, what are you going to do with them? Sell them to NobleProfessor?


I just going to have to "settle" for them the way they are.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

mhj said:


> I just going to have to "settle" for them the way they are.


DAMN!


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

mhj said:


> I just going to have to "settle" for them the way they are.


they might lighten up a little in a few weeks, especially if you wear them outdoors in the sun. The darker #8 isn't too bad either (I actually like it more than the lighter burgundy shades).


----------



## mhj

sleepyinsanfran said:


> they might lighten up a little in a few weeks, especially if you wear them outdoors in the sun. The darker #8 isn't too bad either (I actually like it more than the lighter burgundy shades).


That's what I was thinking. I should be wearing them more than I do which is about once a week if the weather is dry.


----------



## dkoernert

I just got a solid deal on these shell PTB's on the 'bay, they are a little thirsty but I think they should clean up real nice. I'm having a hard time identifying the maker, however. They have obviously been re-heeled but you can still make out the Made in England stamp on the insole, and the lettering is all there on the side. I am just at a loss as to who the maker could be. Any thoughts? (photos taken from auction)


----------



## Jayzz

Worked on the pair, a little still concerned about possible cracking, how do you all know when the shoe is moisturized enough to use? 

So far 2 coats of saphir rejuvenator and a few nights worth of buffing..

Thanks guys as said this is my first time at this..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## darkmark

Yes or no? This is only picture. All I know is that they are AE Leeds. I'm asking seller for more pictures.


----------



## tweets_5

darkmark said:


> Yes or no? This is only picture. All I know is that they are AE Leeds. I'm asking seller for more pictures.


Yes, shell, model 9548

They've got some bad scratches, and aren't too far away from needing new heels


----------



## darkmark

Are you the seller? How bad are the scratches?



tweets_5 said:


> Yes, shell, model 9548
> 
> They've got some bad scratches, and aren't too far away from needing new heels


----------



## tweets_5

darkmark said:


> Are you the seller? How bad are the scratches?


Not the seller, but I'm a shell hunter and have a watch on those...scroll down in the listing, he's got a lot more pictures.


----------



## marvaments

Any thoughts on these?


----------



## Reuben

marvaments said:


> Any thoughts on these?


Definitely, and a great seller too. I've bought from and consigned with him before.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eagle2250

^^To my eyes, 
they appear to be shell.


----------



## marvaments

Reuben said:


> Definitely, and a great seller too. I've bought from and consigned with him before.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the help guys!


----------



## thebov

Hi guys, is this shell? seller wrote possibly. Not my size


----------



## Reuben

Definitely not, looks like CG to me.


----------



## Dmontez

These keep coming up in my eBay feed dropping by about $20.00 each time they do, but I don't believe they are whiskey shell or even shell, what do you think?

https://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=121436581845


----------



## Reuben

Dmontez said:


> These keep coming up in my eBay feed dropping by about $20.00 each time they do, but I don't believe they are whiskey shell or even shell, what do you think?
> 
> https://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=121436581845


Definitely not shell. You don't even have to look too hard in the second picture to see the creasing.


----------



## drlivingston

Dmontez said:


> These keep coming up in my eBay feed dropping by about $20.00 each time they do, but I don't believe they are whiskey shell or even shell, what do you think?


Alden 560 Walnut Calfskin... not shell


----------



## Dmontez

drlivingston said:


> Alden 560 Walnut Calfskin... not shell


I could have just looked that up, I didn't even think about that.


----------



## drlivingston

Dmontez said:


> I could have just looked that up, I didn't even think about that.


What? And deprive me of my one moment of usefulness? :biggrin:


----------



## thebov

These are shell but looks like incorrect model number although I have not seen any cognac fairgate.


----------



## gamma68

Got my eye on these. Am I nuts, or are these shell?

Who would have made these for JCP?


----------



## CMDC

There was a discussion here a long time ago, IIRC, about whether pebble grain shell ever existed, and I'm pretty sure the conclusion was no. I've never seen it.


----------



## Orgetorix

Not shell. Not sure who made them - maybe Hanover?

You should just assume anything pebble grain is not shell. I have seen pebble-grain shell exactly once, online, when either Leffot or Leather Soul offered it in a makeup a few years ago. Never in the wild, and never on any older shoes. It's possible it existed back in the days when shell was used to make work boots and such, but I'm fairly confident in saying it was not used in the trad gunboat era.

EDIT: Here's a pair of pebble shell Aldens from the collection of a Japanese guy who has maybe the most incredible shoe collection ever: https://centipede.web.fc2.com/alden412.html


----------



## drlivingston

CMDC said:


> There was a discussion here a long time ago, IIRC, about whether pebble grain shell ever existed, and I'm pretty sure the conclusion was no. I've never seen it.


This is a good read on the subject (and it backs up your comment).
https://www.ashlandleather.com/Articles.asp?ID=251


----------



## Orgetorix

drlivingston said:


> This is a good read on the subject (and it backs up your comment).
> https://www.ashlandleather.com/Articles.asp?ID=251


They say:



> Shell cordovan will never pebble because we are not using a grain layer at all - the unique fiber structure of the shell cordovan is found under the skin of any equine animal's hind quarter (yes, shell cordovan is horse butt).


They are professional leather workers, and I am not, so they may know something I don't. But as opposed to, say, a full-grain leather couch, where the leather has a natural pebble finish to it, the pebble grain on leather used in shoes is usually something embossed or stamped onto otherwise smooth calfskin. There's no reason that can't be done to shell, as the pair of Aldens I linked to above shows. It just isn't done, hardly ever. Probably because of how rare shell is in its own right.


----------



## CMDC

Orgetorix said:


> EDIT: Here's a pair of pebble shell Aldens from the collection of a Japanese guy who has maybe the most incredible shoe collection ever: https://centipede.web.fc2.com/alden412.html[/QUOTE
> 
> Good Lord that's impressive.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

This is a little different mystery. I know these shoes are shell cordovan. I just don't know who made them. 

They are Black Shell Cordovan PTBs. The ebay seller said they were O'Sullivan brand. I knew they were not. O'Sullivan is the brand of the heels. Even though I didn't know what brand they were, I bid on them anyway because they are black Shell cordovan. So, now the mystery is trying to figure out what the brand is. The logo is partially worn. You can still see part of the name. I think there are two words. The second is definitely BROS. Like Brooks Bros. But, I don't think they are BB. So, it's some other company that sold shell cordovan shoes that ends in Bros. Any ideas? 


Here's a picture of the logo:


----------



## shadoman

Nobleprofessor said:


> This is a little different mystery. I know these shoes are shell cordovan. I just don't know who made them. ...So, it's some other company that sold shell cordovan shoes that ends in Bros. Any ideas?


Possibly Knapp Bros. ???


----------



## MZWilson

*Shell?*

Found these at goodwill today. In a bit of rough shape. Looks like they were worn in the rain and never dried off. A quick google makes it look like they're Alden for BB in shell cordovan, but I would love the forums recomendations. They will not fit me, so I'm also open to suggestions of how to try to clean them up for sale. Two more pics in the next post Thanks!


----------



## MZWilson

Two more from previous question


----------



## wacolo

MZWilson said:


> Two more from previous question
> View attachment 12694
> View attachment 12695


Definitely Shell and probably by Alden, though they normally do a combo last.


----------



## MZWilson

wacolo said:


> Definitely Shell and probably by Alden, though they normally do a combo last.


That is what I was hoping for. I've never had a pair of shell shoes. Suggestions on how to spruce them up?


----------



## eagle2250

^^Those shoes appear to potentially need a bit of moisturizing. Apply Venetian Cream, sparingly, and buff the hell out of those shoes. Wait a day and buff the hell out of them a second time. On the third day, buff the hell out of them one more time and this time do it like you mean it...after which those shoes will be looking about as good as they are going to look! Have fun and enjoy your new shells.


----------



## drlivingston

They are definitely Alden for Brooks Brothers shell cordovan tassel loafers. Now, get to work so we can see the "after" pics.


----------



## jhlerner

*are these shell?*

Hi, I'm new to the game, can someone tell me if these are shell?


----------



## MZWilson

MZWilson said:


> Found these at goodwill today. In a bit of . Looks like they were worn in the rain and never dried off. A quick google makes it look like they're Alden for BB in shell cordovan, but I would love the forums recomendations. They will not fit me, so I'm also open to suggestions of how to try to clean them up for sale. Two more pics in the next post Thanks!
> View attachment 12694
> View attachment 12695


I think they cleaned up pretty well. That said, still not my size and I'll be trying to flip them. Unfortunately, these were the first pair of shell shoes I've interacted with and with how nice (I think) they ended up, I'm worried I'll be tempted to get a pair myself. How to convince the wife the price tags are worth it...


----------



## Reuben

jhlerner said:


> Hi, I'm new to the game, can someone tell me if these are shell?


They are.


----------



## Michael Alan Nelson

I just found this pair of Allen Edmonds "Polo" shoes at a thrift store for 10 bucks. Being new to the shell game, I have no idea if I found a diamond in the rough or just a very nice topaz. So I defer to the experts: is this shell cordovan?


----------



## JackFlash

^ Shell; awesome find!


----------



## Michael Alan Nelson

JackFlash said:


> ^ Shell; awesome find!


Thank you! Diamond it is!


----------



## eagle2250

^I love the monotone saddle designs, particularly those in #8 shell. They can be a rare find, even new in the box. Excellent score Mr Nelson!


----------



## greekgeek

It has been awhile since I bought any shoes, then eBay suggested I look at this auction, so I bought them, thinking they might be shell. What do you think, are these real shell cordovan? (pics in the auction)


----------



## drlivingston

greekgeek said:


> It has been awhile since I bought any shoes, then eBay suggested I look at this auction, so I bought them, thinking they might be shell. What do you think, are these real shell cordovan? (pics in the auction)


Beautiful shoes... possible shell cordovan lhs. The model number is 97164 which is shell lhs on Card's list. Of course, that is for Royal Imperials. I don't know.


----------



## eagle2250

^^I hate to be disagreeable and also be the bearer of bad news, but I suspect those pennies, while certainly handsome shoes, to be calf hide rather than shell cordovan. Sorry!


----------



## dkoernert

eagle2250 said:


> ^^I hate to be disagreeable and also be the bearer of bad news, but I suspect those pennies, while certainly handsome shoes, to be calf hide rather than shell cordovan. Sorry!


I would love to be proven wrong, but I have to agree here.


----------



## JackFlash

dkoernert said:


> I would love to be proven wrong, but I have to agree here.


Not to beat a dead horse, but I agree as well. Plus, these look like recent Florsheim's. Sadly the quality just isn't there anymore, let alone their proclivity to use shell cordovan.


----------



## drlivingston

eagle2250 said:


> ^^I hate to be disagreeable and also be the bearer of bad news, but I suspect those pennies, while certainly handsome shoes, to be calf hide rather than shell cordovan. Sorry!


I made my verdict based solely on the model number and comparing it to Card's chart. 97164 is the model number for Florsheim shell cordovan lhs. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. They look like CG to me but I didn't want to contradict the wisdom of the people who know far more than myself. At any rate, they are still very handsome shoes.


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

gents: are these Shell or not shell ?


----------



## tweets_5

sleepyinsanfran said:


> gents: are these Shell or not shell ?


I vote no


----------



## Pentheos

sleepyinsanfran said:


> gents: are these Shell or not shell ?


Looks like no. To confirm, post a better photo.


----------



## thebov

How about this one guys link below


----------



## thebov

Dupe post


----------



## Orgetorix

sleepyinsanfran said:


> gents: are these Shell or not shell ?


Not shell.



thebov said:


> How about this one guys link below


Nope.


----------



## greekgeek

drlivingston said:


> I made my verdict based solely on the model number and comparing it to Card's chart. 97164 is the model number for Florsheim shell cordovan lhs. Could I be wrong?


drlivingston, your initial analysis proved to be correct! These turned out to be the real deal, as I had hoped. They are sublime and even have all the original packing materials in the box & in the shoes, truly new old stock that appears to have never been tried on.

It is a rare style to find, especially as a late model representing some of the very last Florsheim domestic production.

Aside from the depth of color and smoothness, which is by no means definitive with poor flash photography ( i lost my last shell gamble...), there was one additional tell that led me to conclude they are probably shell. If you look closely you will notice a small hole near the counter, this hole I have only seen on shell cordovan shoes, never on calf. The holes, if present on calf, tend to mostly close up. I had not thought to check the model number, great reference for the future!

Thanks for the opinions gents, now if only they were larger than an 8C...


----------



## CMDC

CMDC said:


> Did Florsheim ever do shell in colors other than #8 and black??? Every once in a while I see an ebay listing--usually with lousy photography--that has me wondering. I've never seen a definitive example though.


Well, it seems the answer is yes. I posted this in the ebay alert thread. Not my size but very nice....


----------



## drlivingston

CMDC said:


> Well, it seems the answer is yes. I posted this in the ebay alert thread. Not my size but very nice....


They have the same model number as the #8 shell (93605). However, according to the listing, they are 93605 *KC*. I wonder what that means...


----------



## blacksby

florsheim


----------



## Nobleprofessor

blacksby said:


> florsheim


i vote not shell. It doesn't have the depth of color. BUT, is there a style or model number?


----------



## MythReindeer

Any thoughts?


----------



## CMDC

MythReindeer said:


> Any thoughts?


Nope. Micro-creasing around the toe box.


----------



## MythReindeer

CMDC said:


> Nope. Micro-creasing around the toe box.


As I suspected. I asked because the title includes "cordovan" and they aren't the burgundy-ish color that sometimes has that name.


----------



## mikeappell

Hi folks!

Pair of AEs I'm watching online. Lovely shoes either way, but I've a feeling they're not shell: I think I'm seeing some micro-creasing in the indent, though I'm hardly an expert. Which is why I'm here.

https://i.imgur.com/0mQj8kI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UoxVCQ7.jpg

Thanks in advance to one and all.


----------



## drlivingston

Sorry, mikeappell... not shell. However, welcome to the forum!!


----------



## mikeappell

drlivingston said:


> Sorry, mikeappell... not shell. However, welcome to the forum!!


Blimey, didn't think so. Still lovely shoes, AE Fifth Aves I believe, though the model isn't listed on the auction. Here for any interested:

Also, am I correct in that the micro-creasing was the give-away? Anything besides that which I didn't notice?

And thanks. Great site you folks have here.


----------



## tweets_5

mikeappell said:


> Blimey, didn't think so. Still lovely shoes, AE Fifth Aves I believe, though the model isn't listed on the auction. Here for any interested:
> 
> Also, am I correct in that the micro-creasing was the give-away? Anything besides that which I didn't notice?
> 
> And thanks. Great site you folks have here.


Micro creasing is a good give away, the other is that they are fifth Avenue which is a model thats never been offered in shell.


----------



## mikeappell

tweets_5 said:


> Micro creasing is a good give away, the other is that they are fifth Avenue which is a model thats never been offered in shell.


I had noticed that Fifth Aves weren't on the Hunter's Guide, but then, neither were Park Aves that I could see, and those I know do. So I figured that while an excellent guide, it may not be completely exhaustive.


----------



## vegtan

Unidentified Hanover Shell Cordovan Longwing Gunboats Etsy $45 -- https://fityn.com/unidentified-hanover-shell-cordovan-longwing-gunboats-etsy-45/ 
Etsy listing number 206405335, vintage blucher wingtips. Seller MonikaJayVintage does not identify them as Hanovers, misstates correct size based on interior length. Actual size 11D.


----------



## knucklehead

Shell? Do I need to ask for close up photos?

And even if the shoes are shell, are they worth restoring? They look pretty beat up.


----------



## drlivingston

knucklehead said:


> Shell? Do I need to ask for close up photos?
> 
> And even if the shoes are shell, are they worth restoring? They look pretty beat up.


Shell? Hah! Do not buy those shoes...


----------



## knucklehead

You've come through for me again Dr. L! Thanks!


----------



## CMDC

Not my size so I have no interest, but these have me stumped. Around the eyelets it seems like Yes; other parts, not so sure. If they are shell, a great deal on NOS.


----------



## brantley11

It seems like the color variation on the shoes lends itself to being shell. They look to be benchmade in england--I would be curious who made them for Brooks brothers before Alden did?


----------



## drlivingston

CMDC said:


> Not my size so I have no interest, but these have me stumped. Around the eyelets it seems like Yes; other parts, not so sure. If they are shell, a great deal on NOS.


That's a good one. I haven't a clue. There does seem to be early evidence of eyelet "pucker". But, the pristine vamps are too nice to show further telltale signs.


----------



## catside

I don't think shell -hunch-. Cheaneys did shell in the past for US market but they marked them so. No other English maker really did use shell, was not a big thing over there until recent years.


----------



## sleepyinsanfran

CMDC said:


> Not my size so I have no interest, but these have me stumped. Around the eyelets it seems like Yes; other parts, not so sure. If they are shell, a great deal on NOS.


looks like shell, albeit somewhat grainy. (1) color variations in the side-view, (2) pucker at eyelets, (3) grainy patches on right heel typical of somewhat dried out shell, (4) incredibly close stitching on the uppers (stitches per inch) - most calf and especially corrected grain wont be able to withstand such dense stitching


----------



## CMDC

Well, clearly in the interest of science, somebody who is a 10D must buy these so that we can have the answer.


----------



## Orgetorix

One thing I've noticed is that on most shell brogues, the edges of the brogue holes are sort of compressed or rounded down into the hole. These edges seem a little more crisp. That's only the vaguest of indicators, though, so don't take my word for it.

Edit: Here's a large picture that shows well the phenomenon I'm talking about: https://cdn.styleforum.net/7/77/7740ede3_RavelloWingTipBoot4.jpeg


----------



## catside

CMDC said:


> Well, clearly in the interest of science, somebody who is a 10D must buy these so that we can have the answer.


It is well worth that price, too.

The size marking is old Church's.


----------



## drlivingston

The more that I look at them, the more that I am leaning toward shell. I just wish that he had taken out the shoe tree in that one pic to get a better view of the markings.


----------



## Reuben

CMDC said:


> Well, clearly in the interest of science, somebody who is a 10D must buy these so that we can have the answer.


. . .



catside said:


> It is well worth that price, too.
> 
> The size marking is old Church's.


Shhhh, don't say that.



drlivingston said:


> The more that I look at them, the more that I am leaning toward shell. I just wish that he had taken out the shoe tree in that one pic to get a better view of the markings.


You mean the more you're leaning against, right? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mike1767

Saw a pair of old Florsheims at the thrift store that were the perfect fit and couldn't not buy them. To be honest, I don't really care one way or the other, they were $10 and I'll wear them in regular rotation, but am curious. Leaning toward not, but don't have any experience with shell so I thought I'd ask. If you have any info about the shoe I'd love that as well. I'm guessing the one stamp is a date (1987?) and obviously it's after they moved manufacturing to India, but beyond that I don't know much.


http://imgur.com/7ISgs

Edit: After doing some more reading about dating Florsheims, i think that I misread 1 as / and came up with a date. Looks like JD is the date stamp, which would be October in a year ending with 4, so likely 94, possible 84 (but I think they were still made in the USA then).


----------



## Reuben

Actually, that looks like shell to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## catside

Do they make shells in India other than Duckie Brown?


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

They do indeed look like shell. Try brushing them vigorously to see if they start shining.


----------



## wahoo97

Shell or not: https://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=261672527392

Just getting started in this game. Seems like fun.


----------



## eagle2250

^^Not shell, but corrected grain...methinks!


----------



## drlivingston

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Not shell, but corrected grain...methinks!


Youthinks correct!


----------



## drlivingston

What do you think about these?


----------



## Pentheos

drlivingston said:


> What do you think about these?


Good deal even if they are not.


----------



## Orgetorix

drlivingston said:


> What do you think about these?


Definitely not.


----------



## catside

Found these for our friend Reuben but he noticed the heel counters of the shoes are shot. Anyways, I say yes:


----------



## CMDC

^ I agree. I say yes also.


----------



## tweets_5

Been a while since I had to ask about any shell, I handle a lot of shell and can usually tell pretty quick, but these have me questioning my shell knowledge.


I know Nunn has made shell, but they are pretty rare.


----------



## catside

No, i do not think so.


----------



## CMDC

I'm not sure either. For $30 and the condition they're in, wouldn't be a bad knock around shoe if they ended up being calf.


----------



## knucklehead

Thoughts on whether these are shell?


----------



## CMDC

Nope. Microcreasing in each of the big wrinkles in the forefoot.


----------



## knucklehead

Thanks!


----------



## joeyzaza

catside said:


> Found these for our friend Reuben but he noticed the heel counters of the shoes are shot. Anyways, I say yes:


These test positive for shell.


----------



## mikeappell

Pretty sure these are a positive, but the condition keeps me from bidding. Plus, not a huge fan of the style.


----------



## Sgpearl

mikeappell said:


> Pretty sure these are a positive, but the condition keeps me from bidding. Plus, not a huge fan of the style.


I'm not the expert, but I don't think so. Looks like tiny creases at the bottoms of the folds, and there are nicks on the toe. Not so easy to nick shell. My two cents.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

On Allen Edmonds, she'll models normally feature a dove - tail rubber and leather heel, not the full rubber heel seen in these beat up shoes from the 1980s.


----------



## drlivingston

AE model 8877 is burgundy calf... and they look kinda strange with the missing tassels.


----------



## mikeappell

drlivingston said:


> AE model 8877 is burgundy calf... and they look kinda strange with the missing tassels.


They look pretty strange, period, but I hadn't seen that sort of wave-creasing except on shell before. Which demonstrates how new to this I am, I'd say.


----------



## Pentheos

Absolutely not shell.

Lots of nice shell options in 8.5. I wish the 13EEE market was as robust. I am able to acquire about one pair per year.


----------



## catside

These look like unmarked shell.


----------



## drlivingston

catside said:


> These look like unmarked shell.


They are model number 92612. Later in the thread, someone asked for 92612 to be added for shell longwings but it was never updated. ACME has a pair for sale right now. We could always ask him.


----------



## catside

It's gone and I don't even get a thank you!


----------



## drlivingston

catside said:


> It's gone and I don't even get a thank you!


Wasn't me... Someone got a great deal.


----------



## vegtan

Pair of Alden shell cordovan tassel loafers on Etsy, wrongly identified as leather. https://wp.me/p4Gj4e-2z Not my listing. Asking price $99 for size 10D. Looks like just back from Alden Restoration. Photo of bottom sole shows almost no wear on black sole coloring. Direct link to offer here.


----------



## wahoo97

I know Sears made a quality shoe at one time, but are these really shell?

https://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271701593021


----------



## drlivingston

wahoo97 said:


> I know Sears made a quality shoe at one time, but are these really shell?
> 
> https://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271701593021


I would be careful buying from this seller. He only has 268 feedbacks. And, of those, 6 are neutral and 5 are negative. Too many seller felonies.


----------



## Reuben

wahoo97 said:


> I know Sears made a quality shoe at one time, but are these really shell?
> 
> https://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271701593021


Yup, and starting to crack too. I'd pass.


----------



## drlivingston

vegtan said:


> Pair of Alden shell cordovan tassel loafers on Etsy, wrongly identified as leather. https://wp.me/p4Gj4e-2z Not my listing. Asking price $99 for size 10D. Looks like just back from Alden Restoration. Photo of bottom sole shows almost no wear on black sole coloring. Direct link to offer here.


That's a good buy. I recently sold a pair of 664s in worse condition for $150. If they are your size, awesome! However, if you don't like them, they would be easy to flip.


----------



## Reuben

vegtan said:


> Pair of Alden shell cordovan tassel loafers on Etsy, wrongly identified as leather. https://wp.me/p4Gj4e-2z Not my listing. Asking price $99 for size 10D. Looks like just back from Alden Restoration. Photo of bottom sole shows almost no wear on black sole coloring. Direct link to offer here.


Thanks man, works for me! That makes my third pair of Alden loafers, all as a result of people on AAAT, all three combined for less than a single pair of calfskin, and these show the most sole wear by far.


----------



## tryst

Listed as cordovan. What do you fine gents think?


----------



## Reuben

tryst said:


> Listed as cordovan. What do you fine gents think?


Definitely not.


----------



## tryst

These?


----------



## Reuben

tryst said:


> These?


Yup, those are shell.


----------



## tryst

Bored at work. So I am just looking up shoes. Just getting into dressing better after being burned on a pair of Bornes and ECCOs.


----------



## MythReindeer

tryst said:


> Listed as cordovan. What do you fine gents think?


Looks like the use of "cordovan" as a color name. The creasing doesn't look right.


----------



## vegtan

*Yep, not shell cord*



MythReindeer said:


> Looks like the use of "cordovan" as a color name. The creasing doesn't look right.


Agreed not shell cordovan. Top wear line below start of balmoral lace-up shows leather wrinkles, not shell cordovan folds.


----------



## vegtan

*Alden Brooks Brothers 772 Loafers shell cordovan listed as leather -- eBay*

Alden Brooks Brothers shell cordovan mislabeled leather. eBay find currently at $10.50 bid with Friday evening 12/19 close. Tassel loafers, number 772, made by Alden for Brooks Brothers since 1957.


----------



## catside

?


----------



## MWhisler

Yes, Definately.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

I'm pretty sure these are not shell. The seller describes them as Cordovan, but I think he means the color. If you look at the pics, it's weird. One shoe looks like shell but the other doesn't.


----------



## JackFlash

I vote no. Microcreasing on both shoes. Color looks brown. Also, I think the shell version has a dovetail heel.



Nobleprofessor said:


> I'm pretty sure these are not shell. The seller describes them as Cordovan, but I think he means the color. If you look at the pics, it's weird. One shoe looks like shell but the other doesn't.


----------



## catside

This just got posted in TOF. Good value


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Nobleprofessor said:


> I'm pretty sure these are not shell. The seller describes them as Cordovan, but I think he means the color. If you look at the pics, it's weird. One shoe looks like shell but the other doesn't.


They're not: the heels are original and are not the combination leather+rubber, which are used on she'll cordovan.


----------



## Bandit44

I'm thinking no on these, but what say you?


----------



## drlivingston

Bandit44 said:


> I'm thinking no on these, but what say you?


I vote no as well. Evidence of micro-creasing in the third picture.


----------



## CMDC

^ I agree although they are nice, either way. Not a bad price even if calf.


----------



## chidochuck

Hi, Everyone! Just bought these. The seller said that the color was shell cordovan when I asked him the color name. I do not believe that he knows what shell is. That influenced me to buy them because they do look like shell to me and Alden makes the shell in cigar color. What do you think?


----------



## Reuben

chidochuck said:


> Hi, Everyone! Just bought these. The seller said that the color was shell cordovan when I asked him the color name. I do not believe that he knows what shell is. That influenced me to buy them because they do look like shell to me and Alden makes the shell in cigar color. What do you think?


Looks like it to me. If it's actually cigar shell, you got a steal.


----------



## Pentheos

chidochuck said:


> Hi, Everyone! Just bought these. The seller said that the color was shell cordovan when I asked him the color name. I do not believe that he knows what shell is. That influenced me to buy them because they do look like shell to me and Alden makes the shell in cigar color. What do you think?


Shell. Cigar. Good deal.


----------



## chidochuck

Reuben said:


> Looks like it to me. If it's actually cigar shell, you got a steal.


Thank you! I'll know for sure when they get here on Thurs.


Pentheos said:


> Shell. Cigar. Good deal.


I asked seller what color they were and he said, "shell cordovan but it's not a true cordovan color. More like chocolate brown."  I bought them after that. I realized he didn't know what he had and that they were most likely shell.


----------



## drlivingston

Pentheos said:


> Shell. Cigar. Good deal.


Absolutely... Awesome shoes for an awesome price! Wear them in good health!


----------



## 127.72 MHz

Bandit44 said:


> I'm thinking no on these, but what say you?


I took a bit of a chance. I have, for many years, worn 10.5C in most lasts. (AE, Florsheim) However, as I've gotten older I've recently noticed that my C's are a bit tighter than I would prefer. In a USA made Florsheim Imperial I now wear a 10.5D and I feel I could use a little more room in the toe-box. (I have a couple pairs of AE MacNeils that I wear an 11B and they fit nicely.)

Anyway, I'm about to find out how a pair of Hanover signatures in 11C fit. They're just too nice to ignore, NOS. (Dead stock) Beautiful shoes and the price is more than fair in my opinion.

I have my fingers crossed.


----------



## Bandit44

^ They are nice, and I hope you get lucky. Even if they turn out to calf, I can't imagine Hanover using corrected grain for their top of the line L.B. Sheppard.


----------



## sskim3

Bandit44 said:


> ^ They are nice, and I hope you get lucky. Even if they turn out to calf, I can't imagine Hanover using corrected grain for their top of the line L.B. Sheppard.


Just checked those out and they do look gorgeous. For NOS, very solid and a bonus if shell!


----------



## chidochuck

chidochuck said:


> Hi, Everyone! Just bought these. The seller said that the color was shell cordovan when I asked him the color name. I do not believe that he knows what shell is. That influenced me to buy them because they do look like shell to me and Alden makes the shell in cigar color. What do you think?





Reuben said:


> Looks like it to me. If it's actually cigar shell, you got a steal.





Pentheos said:


> Shell. Cigar. Good deal.


Good news! I got the shoes today and they look great! Probably worn no more than 10 times. They are the Cigar Shell longwings which retail for $752 on Shoemart.com. This is a once in a lifetime find as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for the help, Reuben and Pentheos!


----------



## tocohillsguy

chidochuck said:


> Good news! I got the shoes today and they look great! Probably worn no more than 10 times. They are the Cigar Shell longwings which retail for $752 on Shoemart.com. This is a once in a lifetime find as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for the help, Reuben and Pentheos!


Congrats. Not my size and not quite as good a deal, but maybe these would also work for you....


----------



## chidochuck

tocohillsguy said:


> Congrats. Not my size and not quite as good a deal, but maybe these would also work for you....


Thanks for the heads up! I think 14 is a bit big for me, though. They look pretty nice.


----------



## vegtan

If you need a pair of Crockett & Jones chukka shell cordovans made for PRL, here's a pair listed as leather made in England. 
Current bid $52.01, ends Monday evening.


----------



## brantley11

vegtan said:


> If you need a pair of Crockett & Jones chukka shell cordovans made for PRL, here's a pair listed as leather made in England.
> Current bid $52.01, ends Monday evening.


Why would you rats those out like that! i can kiss a good deal goodby.


----------



## chidochuck

brantley11 said:


> Why would you rats those out like that! i can kiss a good deal goodby.


Auto bid set... j/k  Not my size.


----------



## gamma68

This pair appears to be in very nice shape. Little heel wear or interior wear. But are they really shell? Photos are on the dark side.


----------



## Reuben

gamma68 said:


> This pair appears to be in very nice shape. Little heel wear or interior wear. But are they really shell? Photos are on the dark side.


Indubitably.


----------



## catside

brantley11 said:


> Why would you rats those out like that! i can kiss a good deal goodby.


Now, now, let's don't be selfish!


----------



## brantley11

catside said:


> Now, now, let's don't be selfish!


I guess I should've added a smiley face to show the tonge in cheek nature of that statement.


----------



## gamma68

Reuben said:


> Indubitably.


Thanks, Reuben!


----------



## vegtan

*Chukka Alden Shell Cord described as leather*



brantley11 said:


> Why would you rats those out like that! i can kiss a good deal goodby.


The other eBayers around the world took care of the good deal part of this, unless you consider a $306 closing price a good deal.

Since you seemed to take offense at pointing out a pair of eBay shell cordovans for sale on a message board about Shell or Not Shell, I did not post another pair of black Florsheim 5 nail shell cord longwings size 10.5D. These were also mislabeled as leather. They just sold for $28.50 and will clean up quite nicely.


----------



## catside

well,:cofee: you can always pm me with any such deal if they are between 9 and 10


----------



## greekgeek

127.72 MHz said:


> I took a bit of a chance. I have, for many years, worn 10.5C in most lasts. (AE, Florsheim) However, as I've gotten older I've recently noticed that my C's are a bit tighter than I would prefer. In a USA made Florsheim Imperial I now wear a 10.5D and I feel I could use a little more room in the toe-box. (I have a couple pairs of AE MacNeils that I wear an 11B and they fit nicely.)
> 
> Anyway, I'm about to find out how a pair of Hanover signatures in 11C fit. They're just too nice to ignore, NOS. (Dead stock) Beautiful shoes and the price is more than fair in my opinion.
> 
> I have my fingers crossed.


Those are gorgeous. The seller has been on eBay trading shoes for many years and knows his stock so for certain they are calfskin rather than shell.


----------



## 32rollandrock

gamma68 said:


> This pair appears to be in very nice shape. Little heel wear or interior wear. But are they really shell? Photos are on the dark side.


They are absolutely shell, but they have also been re-heeled, and one of the nails is missing from the waist of the right shoe. The inner labels are significantly faded. In short, they appear to have a ton of wear, which is fairly common for shoes this old, but I would proceed carefully--I'd definitely want to know what's up with the missing waist nail. And hope that whoever worked on them did a good job.


----------



## vegtan

Definitely shell from the look as well as the faint but still readable number 93605 on the lining wall.


----------



## 127.72 MHz

greekgeek said:


> Those are gorgeous. The seller has been on eBay trading shoes for many years and knows his stock so for certain they are calfskin rather than shell.


I just received them in the mail this past Friday. I'll be buying through this seller again. They fit like a they were made for me, I'm very pleased.


----------



## sskim3

127.72 MHz said:


> I just received them in the mail this past Friday. I'll be buying through this seller again. They fit like a they were made for me, I'm very pleased.


So were they calfskin or shell?


----------



## vegtan

Not a PM, but these have a little more than 5 hours to go, no bidders, $38 and change opening bid. Florsheim Imperials 9C shell wingtips, 5 nail, from the Florsheim era of double row heel nails.


----------



## drlivingston

vegtan said:


> Not a PM, but these have a little more than 5 hours to go, no bidders, $38 and change opening bid. Florsheim Imperials 9C shell wingtips, 5 nail, from the Florsheim era of double row heel nails.


ix nay on the ell shay alk tay


----------



## 32rollandrock

drlivingston said:


> ix nay on the ell shay alk tay


Someone got a very good deal.


----------



## drlivingston

32rollandrock said:


> Someone got a very good deal.


:hidden:


----------



## Woofa

Picked these up today. I think they are shell but still an amateur at this and could not find the numbers. If these are shell I will be putting them on the exchange looking for a trade before I try and sell.








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----------



## 32rollandrock

^^

Shell.


----------



## Woofa

Okay, shell. Alden leisure handsewn moccasins? Color 8? Might these have been made in a lighter color. Difficult to compare to a website. I ask because unfortunately these are too small. I love the shoes and would like to list on the exchange to see if anyone may have thrifted the same or similar shoe in my size (10 1/2 D) and would like to trade. Any thoughts as to whether this has a chance?


----------



## CMDC

My guess is that a trade is going to be next to impossible. Not many guys are going to have shell in the wrong size (and your size) laying around. As to a flip on the exchange, shouldn't be a problem. That's a common size and those look to be in great shape.


----------



## Woofa

Thanks CMDC, unfortunately what I figured but you never know. Didn't I see a post that someone is currently holding onto 300 some odd pairs waiting to start selling or similar? With that kind of inventory my odds might increase a bit and I would be open to other than just that specific shoe. Just looking for a like kind sort of deal. I have thrifted some great stuff in the past year but I think these are clearly the best shoes and would have filled a perfect niche in my collection.


----------



## Pentheos

Trading probably accounts for 0.001% of what happens on the exchange. Sell them. Put the money to buy something in your size.


----------



## MythReindeer

I feel pretty good about these but figured I'd consult the experts. These look a bit beat, especially around the...rear rim, where one's Achilles would hit (name for that part of the shoe?). I have no idea how to value these things--any idea if they are offered for a reasonable price?


----------



## Pentheos

MythReindeer said:


> I feel pretty good about these but figured I'd consult the experts. These look a bit beat, especially around the...rear rim, where one's Achilles would hit (name for that part of the shoe?). I have no idea how to value these things--any idea if they are offered for a reasonable price?


Definitely shell. $135 is too high however. Make a $89 offer.


----------



## 123abc

I bought a pair of older ( I assume) AE "Stafford" shoes on eBay and they definately shine up different than my other AE shoes and have the wavy creases I read sometimes indicate shell. On the other hand, they look "cheaper" to my eye or maybe it's the style or something I don't really like. Anyways, could be "corrected grain", which was my first thought but saw some photos that looked a bit similar that folks here said was Shell. I searched online and don't see many "stafford" shoes from AE so I assume long ago discontinued.

Photos from eBay listing - they shined up significantly more with little effort. Opinions?


----------



## Reuben

123abc said:


> I bought a pair of older ( I assume) AE "Stafford" shoes on eBay and they definately shine up different than my other AE shoes and have the wavy creases I read sometimes indicate shell. On the other hand, they look "cheaper" to my eye or maybe it's the style or something I don't really like. Anyways, could be "corrected grain", which was my first thought but saw some photos that looked a bit similar that folks here said was Shell. I searched online and don't see many "stafford" shoes from AE so I assume long ago discontinued.
> 
> Photos from eBay listing - they shined up significantly more with little effort. Opinions?
> 
> View attachment 14066
> View attachment 14067


See the wrinkles in the bottoms of the "waves"? Definitely not shell.


----------



## 123abc

Reuben said:


> See the wrinkles in the bottoms of the "waves"? Definitely not shell.


Thanks for the reply. I figured not as they just don't have a "rich" look to them. Definitely not the regular calf skin either, so I assume corrected grain. The wavy creases sort of ruin the sleekness of the look, IMO, so I may re-sell them on eBay, if I get the ambition. They were cheap, so maybe use as crappy weather shoes or whatever.


----------



## vegtan

Florsheim shell cordovan 93605 wingtip longwings listed as leather. $20 open, $30 BIN. Size 9A with shoe trees. Note cracks. eBay Item 141583952938. As this is posted, 5 watchers, Sunday afternoon close.

https://fityn.com/florsheim-shell-c...dovan-wingtips-listed-as-leather-with-cracks/


----------



## NJDapper

that is a good price for shells I would think even with the cracks!


----------



## NJDapper

Are these shell?


----------



## SG_67

^ They're beat up, not well cared for and otherwise over priced, but they are shell.


----------



## NJDapper

Hey SG, thanks for the info. I just sent you a PM.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

I have that model (from '98) in shell. SG_67, how can you tell that the listed item is not shell? I ask for my own edification. I agree, though, that's an absurd price for shoes that look like they've been soaked and dried out repeatedly, i.e. they're damaged.


----------



## Pentheos

NJDapper said:


> Are these shell?


Yes, but not worth it at $150. Make a $99 offer and see where that goes.

Consider:

(Both would need recrafting, but you'd be ahead of those LWB, I think.)

These are tasty:


----------



## NJDapper

I love how the last pair you sent me still has the price from the thrift store on the bottom of the soles... $9.90 LOL 

"These are tasty: "


----------



## NJDapper

Sent you a PM Pentheos.


----------



## SG_67

SlideGuitarist said:


> I have that model (from '98) in shell. SG_67, how can you tell that the listed item is not shell? I ask for my own edification. I agree, though, that's an absurd price for shoes that look like they've been soaked and dried out repeatedly, i.e. they're damaged.


The tell tale for me, other than an obvious mark on the sole, is the creasing and the wear pattern on the uppers.

The creasing is very beefy I guess is the best way to explain it. One doesn't see the same micro creasing as on calfskin. There's a thickness to the hide and it shows in the creasing.


----------



## vegtan

Another eBay listing, another shell cord listed as leather. Classic Alden tassel loafers, size 10.5D. Resoled and reheeled. Current bid $9.95. Ends this evening, March 6. eBay item number 391070782143

https://fityn.com/alden-shell-cordovan-tassel-loafers-mislabeled-leather-another-ebay-find/


----------



## vegtan

Here's the largest online list of shell cordovan shoes model names and numbers. First edition has more than 95 shoemakers and over 500 names / style numbers / descriptions. Made for easy searching. Enjoy creating eBay query strings. Additions welcome.

https://fityn.com/official-shell-cordovan-shoes-model-numbers-guide/


----------



## SlideGuitarist

vegtan said:


> ...https://fityn.com/alden-shell-cordovan-tassel-loafers-mislabeled-leather-another-ebay-find/


Wow! I've read here that Aldens run somewhat large. I'm wearing 11E Cole-Haan strap loafers right now. Should I take a dare on the above, at that insane price?


----------



## Pentheos

SlideGuitarist said:


> Wow! I've read here that Aldens run somewhat large. I'm wearing 11E Cole-Haan strap loafers right now. Should I take a dare on the above, at that insane price?


I would. Worst case scenario: you win them, they don't fit, and you flip at a profit.


----------



## NJDapper

shell or not?


----------



## NJDapper

or these?


----------



## drlivingston

No on both... sorry


----------



## NJDapper

and last but not least....


----------



## NJDapper

the above are vintage cole haan made in Maine, USA. I am thinking this is a YES to shell. Thoughts?


----------



## Nobleprofessor

NJDapper said:


> shell or not?


no. See the hair line creases?


----------



## NJDapper

Oh, yes. good call.


----------



## NJDapper

Nobleprofessor, what is your thought on the cole haan's?


----------



## drlivingston

I don't think that Cole Haan ever made shell in that design. They did make some shell longwings, saddle oxfords, and penny loafers. I could be wrong but that is my memory. Regardless, they are very handsome shoes.


----------



## Winny94

Can someone assist? Shell or no?
https://i1307.photobucket.com/album...0-D281-4894-91CB-2B24622E5ACC_zpsh6y76hz8.png

https://i1307.photobucket.com/album...8-29A8-4293-9643-9ED5653B2BAA_zpsy1yzd5kt.png


----------



## gamma68

Shell or not shell, gentlemen:


----------



## CMDC

Pretty sure No. See some microcreasing. No dovetail heel. Plus, the color doesn't look right.



gamma68 said:


> Shell or not shell, gentlemen:


----------



## JackFlash

Yes they are shell



Winny94 said:


> Can someone assist? Shell or no?
> https://i1307.photobucket.com/album...0-D281-4894-91CB-2B24622E5ACC_zpsh6y76hz8.png
> 
> https://i1307.photobucket.com/album...8-29A8-4293-9643-9ED5653B2BAA_zpsy1yzd5kt.png


----------



## JackFlash

I concur; not shell.



CMDC said:


> Pretty sure No. See some microcreasing. No dovetail heel. Plus, the color doesn't look right.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

The Macneils, no (see the scuffing on the back, plus lighting should bring out the reddish quality of shell); the Florsheims, yes (I'm lucky enough to have bought a pair of those in '98, before I had any idea what I was doing).


----------



## NJDapper

When do you think those Florsheims were manufactured? When I think of the black insole, i think its more recent?


----------



## SlideGuitarist

I just checked mine: they appear to be lined with dark brown calfskin. All I know beyond that is that I was told when I bought them (Feb. '99) that Florsheim would soon send its lasts overseas.


----------



## NJDapper

THoughts?


----------



## Pentheos

NJDapper - everything you link to is not shell. If you're searching Ebay auctions, post that link so we can see more pictures. It generally takes more than one.

Question: do you want to purchase shell? Or do you want our help in flipping?


----------



## NJDapper

Pentheos,

The answer to your questions is BOTH.

1) I am looking for help in purchasing for myself 
2) But if I can find shells that aren't my size for a quick flip I wouldn't mind making some cash to put into my next shell purchase for myself


----------



## conductor

Winny94 said:


> Can someone assist? Shell or no?
> https://i1307.photobucket.com/album...0-D281-4894-91CB-2B24622E5ACC_zpsh6y76hz8.png
> 
> https://i1307.photobucket.com/album...8-29A8-4293-9643-9ED5653B2BAA_zpsy1yzd5kt.png


These could be corafoam, be carefull. Make sure there is a return policy. I had an identical pair, they looked shell like in the pics, but ended up being corafoam. Ask for a pic with the numbers and check the database.


----------



## Winny94

These appear to shell, but does anyone know anything about them quality wise? The seller is saying they are Hanover for Sears. There are some unsightly seems that lead me to believe they are of a lesser quality, but then why would a manufacturer use nice leather for a cheap shoe?


----------



## smmrfld

Winny94 said:


> These appear to shell, but does anyone know anything about them quality wise? The seller is saying they are Hanover for Sears. There are some unsightly seems that lead me to believe they are of a lesser quality, but then why would a manufacturer use nice leather for a cheap shoe?


Doesn't really matter what they're made of, that's a horrendous "repair" job. Run, don't walk, away from those monstrosities.


----------



## NJDapper

OK...took a gamble as these are my size and looked as if they had little use. Winny posted pics of them yesterday. Shell or No shell?


----------



## YoungSoulRebel

Purchased these Hanovers on Ebay, seller said they were shell cordovan, however, i have my doubts..
They are made in the USA, and look nice regardless (especially for $25) but my OCD ass just needs another opinion or two.. any thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## MythReindeer

YoungSoulRebel said:


> Purchased these Hanovers on Ebay, seller said they were shell cordovan, however, i have my doubts..
> They are made in the USA, and look nice regardless (especially for $25) but my OCD ass just needs another opinion or two.. any thoughts would be appreciated.


That micro-creasing looks distinctly un-shell-like even to a rank amateur (me).


----------



## Winny94

NJDapper said:


> OK...took a gamble as these are my size and looked as if they had little use. Winny posted pics of them yesterday. Shell or No shell?


You dirty snake - haha (outbid me by $1) Who can get up that early on daylight saving time Sunday?
Let me know if they work out.


----------



## YoungSoulRebel

Thanks for the input, i was thinking the same... oh well, they will make a decent beater shoe.



MythReindeer said:


> That micro-creasing looks distinctly un-shell-like even to a rank amateur (me).


----------



## NJDapper

Hey Winny, 

That is one of the many perks of having a 2 year old wake you up at 6am every morning.... ) I will keep a look out for 10D's for you. 

NJDapper


----------



## Pentheos

NJDapper said:


> OK...took a gamble as these are my size and looked as if they had little use. Winny posted pics of them yesterday. Shell or No shell?


Score!


----------



## Pentheos

YoungSoulRebel said:


> Thanks for the input, i was thinking the same... oh well, they will make a decent beater shoe.


Definitely not shell, sorry mate.


----------



## drlivingston

Pentheos said:


> Score!


They look like shell but the model number is absent from any shell database. Are they just not worn enough for creases?


----------



## vegtan

YoungSoulRebel said:


> Thanks for the input, i was thinking the same... oh well, they will make a decent beater shoe.


If these are shell (don't think they are), need to add the style number to the shell cord database. These are the known Florsheim shell cordovan production long wing numbers: 93605, 97626, 78006 in #8, 29649 and 92612 in black.
Shell longwings: 93605/97626/78006 (#8); 29649 (black) 92612 (Imperial) - See more at: https://fityn.com/#sthash.R42p4qVz.dpuf
Shell longwings: 93605/97626/78006 (#8); 29649 (black) 92612 (Imperial) - See more at: https://fityn.com/#sthash.R42p4qVz.dpuf


----------



## vegtan

In reply to the Sears by Hanover post, these are shell, they are made by Hanover, and that is a really bad repair job. Two Hanover tells: 1. the angled line down the side of the shoe heel side on the left shoe exterior 2. the "triple diamond" design in the middle of the front toe medallion. Both are same as the Hanover 2351.


----------



## MythReindeer

vegtan said:


> In reply to the Sears by Hanover post, these are shell, they are made by Hanover, and that is a really bad repair job. Two Hanover tells: 1. the angled line down the side of the shoe heel side on the left shoe exterior 2. the "triple diamond" design in the middle of the front toe medallion. Both are same as the Hanover 2351.


Is the offending repair job the "collar" of the shoe opening (name?), where it looks like a piece of leather was folded over the edge and stitched on?


----------



## NJDapper

drlivingston said:


> They look like shell but the model number is absent from any shell database. Are they just not worn enough for creases?


I hope they are.... ) I will take some pics when they come in. I spoke with Florsheim and they dont have any records earlier than 2003.


----------



## frosejr

MythReindeer said:


> Is the offending repair job the "collar" of the shoe opening (name?), where it looks like a piece of leather was folded over the edge and stitched on?


Yes, AND the awful half-sole on both shoes. Someone has managed to do something I thought not possible - turned shells to junk.


----------



## YoungSoulRebel

vegtan said:


> If these are shell (don't think they are), need to add the style number to the shell cord database. These are the known Florsheim shell cordovan production long wing numbers: 93605, 97626, 78006 in #8, 29649 and 92612 in black.
> Shell longwings: 93605/97626/78006 (#8); 29649 (black) 92612 (Imperial) - See more at: https://fityn.com/#sthash.R42p4qVz.dpuf
> Shell longwings: 93605/97626/78006 (#8); 29649 (black) 92612 (Imperial) - See more at: https://fityn.com/#sthash.R42p4qVz.dpuf


Thank you VERY much for this information! I am obviously new to the shell game so this is super useful to me.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

MythReindeer said:


> That micro-creasing looks distinctly un-shell-like even to a rank amateur (me).


Not to pile on here, YSR, but those creases look suspiciously brittle, like those on Weejuns, leading me to suspect corrected-grain (at that range, you should be able to see the pores on calfskin).


----------



## Orgetorix

frosejr said:


> Yes, AND the awful half-sole on both shoes. Someone has managed to do something I thought not possible - turned shells to junk.


There are a lot of incompetent hacks out there masquerading as cobblers.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

There's a pair of AE Randolphs on eBay in my size that look suspiciously like CG. If this isn't the wrong place to post this question, I'd be happy if someone would check my work:


Spoiler



These seem just a _liiiiittle _too shiny_. _Not shell; they already have microcreases. Would someone mind taking a look?


----------



## Pentheos

SlideGuitarist said:


> There's a pair of AE Randolphs on eBay in my size that look suspiciously like CG. If this isn't the wrong place to post this question, I'd be happy if someone would check my work:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> These seem just a _liiiiittle _too shiny_. _Not shell; they already have microcreases. Would someone mind taking a look?


Definitely not shell. They've been half-soled by someone other than AE as well. I'd stay very far from that pair.


----------



## drlivingston

SlideGuitarist said:


> There's a pair of AE Randolphs on eBay in my size that look suspiciously like CG. If this isn't the wrong place to post this question, I'd be happy if someone would check my work:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> These seem just a _liiiiittle _too shiny_. _Not shell; they already have microcreases. Would someone mind taking a look?


This is what shell AE Randolphs should look like.


----------



## Orgetorix

I mentioned this in the Exchange, but this is a better place for it: Pictures of some shell Yumas with creasing you almost never see in shell.

Let this be a warning that: 1) Creasing can be deceptive sometimes; and 2) You should always use a shoe horn.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

Thanks, DrLivingston & Orgetorix. If a deal looks too good to be true...


----------



## NJDapper

She'll or no she'll?


----------



## wacolo

NJDapper said:


> She'll or no she'll?


Shell


----------



## drlivingston

I bet that if you checked, you would find the numbers 93605 on the inside


----------



## NJDapper

ok, last one.... this is a pair of allen edmonds macneils. I check the database and it's listed but just wanted to make sure before I made the big purchase....









Im sorry for the big pic, this will be my last question of the night and maybe even the weekend 

NJDapper


----------



## drlivingston

Edit: 9107 is not on Card's list but it is on the Fityn list. I guess that they are black shell. Good find.


----------



## NJDapper

is it the 9107?


----------



## drlivingston

It was on one list and not the other. Cardinals5 has a great list but it is limited by his inability to update. I really wish that the list could be updated. At any rate, 9107 is on the Fityn list.


----------



## NJDapper

They are new and I think I can get them for about $200ish. Is it worht it if the number isn't on both lists?


----------



## drlivingston

Post a picture of the whole shoe. If they are new, they would be a bargain at $200.


----------



## tweets_5

NOT SHELL. 9107 is black polished cobbler, 9177 is the Macneil Black Shells. 

Box would say Cordovan on it as well, and would most likely have the combination heels that those don't.


----------



## NJDapper




----------



## kbuzz

Hi, older aa member here. Anyone have any idea on these hanovers. Shell or cordovan colored calf?


----------



## kbuzz

kbuzz said:


> Hi, older aa member here. Anyone have any idea on these hanovers. Shell or cordovan colored calf?


Here's a few pics, sorry about the double post


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

The pics are not very clear, but there seems to be a good deal of microcreasing in the first picture of your first post. Hence, the shoes are likely corrected grain.


----------



## kbuzz

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> The pics are not very clear, but there seems to be a good deal of microcreasing in the first picture of your first post. Hence, the shoes are likely corrected grain.


Thank you so much for the rapid response. Pics are not mine so can't do any better on that end...


----------



## drlivingston

tweets_5 said:


> NOT SHELL. 9107 is black polished cobbler, 9177 is the Macneil Black Shells.
> Box would say Cordovan on it as well, and would most likely have the combination heels that those don't.


This is copied and pasted from the Official Shell Cordovan Shoes Model Numbers Guide
MacNeil: 9097/9147/9187 (#8, burgundy); 9177/*9107* (black); 9007 (Cognac) longwing - See more at: https://fityn.com/official-shell-cordovan-shoes-model-numbers-guide/#sthash.2xDNQBtc.dpuf


----------



## kbuzz

Hi- I have one more and I appreciate the members help as always. Here's an ebay listing for Florschiem Royal Imperials "shell" The model number seems to be *97625*. i note that the Shell listings posted here and on various forums list */97626*- one number off. Pics are from ebay, some hopefully they are good enough to tell. Thanks again


----------



## kbuzz

A few more bad ebay copies


----------



## brantley11

Kbuzz I say yes they are shell and the upper looks in great shape. I really like the variation and depth of the burgundy.


----------



## kbuzz

brantley11 said:


> Kbuzz I say yes they are shell and the upper looks in great shape. I really like the variation and depth of the burgundy.


 Thanks Brantley ...taking a minor risk on sizing with these as im between 8.5 and 9 and these are 8.5s....will see when they arrive..


----------



## tweets_5

drlivingston said:


> This is copied and pasted from the Official Shell Cordovan Shoes Model Numbers Guide
> MacNeil: 9097/9147/9187 (#8, burgundy); 9177/*9107* (black); 9007 (Cognac) longwing - See more at: https://fityn.com/official-shell-cordovan-shoes-model-numbers-guide/#sthash.2xDNQBtc.dpuf[/QUOTE
> 
> https://issuu.com/allenedmonds/docs/spring-2003-catalog
> 
> I'm not saying 9107 was never a Shell number, but I've found it in multiple years of catalogs as Polished Cobbler.


----------



## drlivingston

tweets_5 said:


> drlivingston said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is copied and pasted from the Official Shell Cordovan Shoes Model Numbers Guide
> MacNeil: 9097/9147/9187 (#8, burgundy); 9177/*9107* (black); 9007 (Cognac) longwing - See more at: https://fityn.com/official-shell-cordovan-shoes-model-numbers-guide/#sthash.2xDNQBtc.dpuf[/QUOTE
> 
> https://issuu.com/allenedmonds/docs/spring-2003-catalog
> 
> I'm not saying 9107 was never a Shell number, but I've found it in multiple years of catalogs as Polished Cobbler.
> 
> 
> 
> I just spoke with Brenda at AE corporate. It appears that we are both right. McNeil model number 9107 is black calf. However, before shell model 9177, you could special order the MacNeil in black shell. They would put an 8 in front of the model number (8 being the AE designation for special order). So the inside of an older MacNeil in black shell would have 8 9107. :teacha:
Click to expand...


----------



## NJDapper

whats up with the MacNeils serial numbers? I just came across some burgundy Macneils with the serial number 9147 (burgundy shell)...but from the looks of the shoe, I see micro-creases....which tells me they are calf?

The numbers inside are (top row) 10.5 D 74745 7 (bottom row) 9147 COMB. 4436

Will post pics in a minute.


----------



## tweets_5

drlivingston said:


> tweets_5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just spoke with Brenda at AE corporate. It appears that we are both right. McNeil model number 9107 is black calf. However, before shell model 9177, you could special order the MacNeil in black shell. They would put an 8 in front of the model number (8 being the AE designation for special order). So the inside of an older MacNeil in black shell would have 8 9107. :teacha:
> 
> 
> 
> That's good info, I've seen some with the 8 in front and wondered what it meant. There's a Leeds model number that is the same way, got burned on that once and I had the same model number that was shell at a different time.
> 
> Moral of the story, model number is not always a dead giveaway.
Click to expand...


----------



## SlideGuitarist

vegtan said:


> ...https://fityn.com/alden-shell-cordovan-tassel-loafers-mislabeled-leather-another-ebay-find/


I just got these shoes, and they are shell. However, they were not well taken care of (they seem dried out), so they're going to cost me a few hours before I flip them. I wear 11; these are 10.5D, and there's an extra 1/2" of space behind my heel. Dang, $70 for these would have been amazing.


----------



## Reuben

SlideGuitarist said:


> I just got these shoes, and they are shell. However, they were not well taken care of (they seem dried out), so they're going to cost me a few hours before I flip them. I wear 11; these are 10.5D, and there's an extra 1/2" of space behind my heel. Dang, $70 for these would have been amazing.


That's a bummer about the sizing and kinda surprising from my experience. I'm assuming these are on the Aberdeen last, yes? I have four pairs of loafers on the Aberdeen and find they all run fairly true-to-size, the 10D fitting my 10D feet perfectly. There might be a little credence to the advice that they run a hair long and narrow though since my feet are probably a touch over a 10 and a hair narrower than a D. I won't complain, just means that it's about the perfect last for me.


----------



## vegtan

*Shell cordovan and not shell cordovan numbers*



drlivingston said:


> This is copied and pasted from the Official Shell Cordovan Shoes Model Numbers Guide
> MacNeil: 9097/9147/9187 (#8, burgundy); 9177/*9107* (black); 9007 (Cognac) longwing - See more at: https://fityn.com/official-shell-cordovan-shoes-model-numbers-guide/#sthash.2xDNQBtc.dpuf


Thanks for this information. 9107 was black shell cordovan in 1968 when the AE model was spelled "Mac Neil" compared to the current MacNeil. Always looking for more accuracy. Also working on a list of style numbers that Allen Edmonds has reused for shoes that are or were shell cordovan but at another time in Allen Edmonds' history were not shell cordovan.


----------



## Cardinals5

drlivingston said:


> tweets_5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just spoke with Brenda at AE corporate. It appears that we are both right. McNeil model number 9107 is black calf. However, before shell model 9177, you could special order the MacNeil in black shell. They would put an 8 in front of the model number (8 being the AE designation for special order). So the inside of an older MacNeil in black shell would have 8 9107. :teacha:
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't checked this thread in a long time and see there's a debate about shell numbers for MacNeils. My original list was not designed to show only current shell numbers, but the different shell numbers various companies used over the years. In the late 1960s, AE used 9107 for Black Shell MacNeils, but as you can see from the picture below, the number was discontinued in 1968. The likelihood that anyone would come across a pair of black shell MacNeils from 1967-68 is pretty slim, but my list was supposed to be as comprehensive as possible rather than only show the most common shell numbers. Anyway, continued good hunting!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://issuu.com/allenedmonds/docs/1968-catalog
Click to expand...


----------



## Pentheos

Can't tell for sure. Guess I'll find out when they arrive!


----------



## drlivingston

Pentheos said:


> Can't tell for sure. Guess I'll find out when they arrive!


I trust that you are being sarcastic. lol They have the big shell cordovan stamp on the soles.


----------



## NJDapper

Just spoke with AE AND 9147 is NOT SHELL. It's polished cobbler. Cardinal, if you update, that would be awesome


----------



## Cardinals5

NJDapper said:


> Just spoke with AE AND 9147 is NOT SHELL. It's polished cobbler. Cardinal, if you update, that would be awesome


As mentioned above, the Shell Hunters Guide was designed to include all AE numbers that had been used for shell in the past. If you look at the image I posted above, you'll not only see 9107 used for Black Shell Cordovan, but also 9147 used for Cordoba Shell Cordovan (#8).


----------



## Woofa

What say you? These would make a nice addition to my collection if I can keep them low.
#

He lists as shell (with a sort of disclaimer that says he thinks it shell,) but I did not see the number and what looks like dust could be creasing.


----------



## vegtan

Shell. "Keep them low" is the key. The wear hole on the heel lining takes much away from the value. Recommend asking a cobbler what repairs would cost.


----------



## vegtan

Cardinals5:

Thanks for this info and the graphic. Added a longer explanation about Allen Edmonds' reuse of the same style numbers for different leathers on the fityn guide. Same advice Ronald Reagan gave about arms-control agreements applies to shell cordovan shoes. "Trust, but verify."


----------



## Fred G. Unn

vegtan said:


> Shell. "Keep them low" is the key. The wear hole on the heel lining takes much away from the value. Recommend asking a cobbler what repairs would cost.


+1. Lots of other potential red flags too. Cracking around opening, very uneven heel wear, half-resole at some point may or may not have been done well, etc. For a couple of bucks they might make a fun refurbishing project, but I wouldn't sink any $ into them.


----------



## Cardinals5

vegtan said:


> "Trust, but verify."


Exactly!


----------



## Woofa

Thanks guys, I appreciate the look. I will probably check back Saturday morning and see what the bidding is like. As I usually only thrift shoes, I have gotten used to under $10 AE's but might be willing to go up a little higher for shell like the ones listed. I doubt they will be available in that range anyway. Really at this point, I search online more to improve my knowledge and recognition of shell than because I really need more shoes. 
(Please don't tell Momsdoc I said that, he might blacklist me!)


----------



## frosejr

Fred G. Unn said:


> +1. Lots of other potential red flags too. Cracking around opening, very uneven heel wear, half-resole at some point may or may not have been done well, etc. For a couple of bucks they might make a fun refurbishing project, but I wouldn't sink any $ into them.


+1 to your +1. They are worn enough for me that I wouldn't put any money into them. Something better will come along.


----------



## YoungSoulRebel

So i found these florsheim Imperials today at GW... they are a little beat up and have a huge Frankenstein vibrim soles, but they were $4 and i think they may be shell... what do you fellas think?


----------



## SG_67

^ could you post better lit pictures?


----------



## YoungSoulRebel

Sorry, my tablets camera is awful haha.


----------



## SG_67

It's really hard to tell based on those pics. Higher resolution pics of the creases should give it away. I'm tempted to say they are based on the luster, but of course that could just be the lighting.


----------



## YoungSoulRebel

Ill try a different camera later. There absolutely no creases across the top, thats why im thinking (hoping haha) that they are. Thanks for your input!


----------



## vegtan

*If lining number is 97626, then it is shell*



YoungSoulRebel said:


> Ill try a different camera later. There absolutely no creases across the top, thats why im thinking (hoping haha) that they are. Thanks for your input!


Check the lining number again. If it is 97626, then it is shell cordovan that started its Florsheim life as color #8. Pics look black, which can happen with multiple bad applications of creams and polishes.


----------



## Woofa

So, what say you. Horse-butt shoes? (That is what my daughter's now call them.)







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## JackFlash

^Shell


----------



## Suit of Nettles

Definitely shell. For $1.99, that'll do nicely.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

She'll indeed. From the pics, I'd say they deserve love and TLC, of the Recrafting kind.


----------



## Woofa

Thank you. Was pretty sure, the more of these I see, I think I am getting the hang of it. Definitely raised my heart rate for a moment. Like opening up a suit jacket and seeing that beautiful Oxxford tag. Makes hours of driving around looking worth it.


----------



## eagle2250

While I may or may not be a horse's ass, those shoes definitely are! LOL.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

These are a gamble. Looking at the pics on a tablet, I would say no. If the soles are original, they haven't been worn a lot. Basically a nice leather penny loafer for the price.


----------



## Orgetorix

Those are tough. I think they are probably shell. The fading around the collar of the right shoe looks characteristic of shell, and what little creasing there is on the vamp looks OK for shell. Something about the penny strap doesn't look right to me, but I can't put my finger on it and it's not enough to make me say they aren't shell.

They have been resoled, but it looks like a pretty well done job with good sole leather.


----------



## wacolo

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> These are a gamble. Looking at the pics on a tablet, I would say no. If the soles are original, they haven't been worn a lot. Basically a nice leather penny loafer for the price.





Orgetorix said:


> Those are tough. I think they are probably shell. The fading around the collar of the right shoe looks characteristic of shell, and what little creasing there is on the vamp looks OK for shell. Something about the penny strap doesn't look right to me, but I can't put my finger on it and it's not enough to make me say they aren't shell.
> 
> They have been resoled, but it looks like a pretty well done job with good sole leather.


The resole is what has me leaning to shell. If they were worn enough to need new soles I would expect the uppers to show noticeable creasing, corrected or calf.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Except the creasing is dark, not white-ish as you would expect from shell. These shoes remain a gamble in my opinion.


----------



## NJDapper

Has anyone seen Jarman longwings in shell? If so, do you know the serial number?

Pic looks like they have never been worn










Thanks,
NJ Dap


----------



## wacolo

NJDapper said:


> Has anyone seen Jarman longwings in shell? If so, do you know the serial number?
> 
> Pic looks like they have never been worn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> NJ Dap


I once thrifted some Jarman shells. I will check tomorrow to see if I still have them.


----------



## vegtan

J5180 was a Jarman shell cordovan longwing #8 from mid 1960s. Company also stamped "Genuine Shell Cordovan" on some of the bottom sole insteps. J5194 was an earlier Jarman shell longwing, but pics here are not a J5194. J5194 was 6 eyelets with metal grommets.


----------



## Orgetorix

Those Jarmans really don't look like shell to me.


----------



## Pentheos

Orgetorix said:


> Those Jarmans really don't look like shell to me.


Yeah, I don't think so either.


----------



## brantley11

Take a look and see if y'all agree with me that these are shell. I say yes because of the color variation, the white around the stiches on the tongue, the tongue color and the leather sticking out from behind the tongue lining is smooth.

What do y'all say?


----------



## vegtan

I say look inside the shoe. If these are somewhere online, message the owner and ask for the interior lining information. If the style number is 93605, 97626, 78006, or 92612, then shell #8.


----------



## brantley11

Custom made for local Jackson Attorney only number inside is 678775


----------



## meanoldmanning

Just from the pictures I'd WAG yes they are shell. Very similar detailing and luster to my shell Imperial PTBs. If you have them in hand it should be easy enough to tell by the pliability of the leather, right?


----------



## meanoldmanning

I love this thread BTW. Always think about it when I see some horrendous non-shell POS described as shell on Etsy or Ebay.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

Holy


brantley11 said:


> Take a look and see if y'all agree with me that these are shell. I say yes because of the color variation, the white around the stiches on the tongue, the tongue color and the leather sticking out from behind the tongue lining is smooth.
> 
> What do y'all say?


Holy Cow those are nice. Shell or not, they are gorgeous. Any idea on the size?


----------



## brantley11

8 A

probably headed to Japan. I also got a pair of NOS black pebble grain



Nobleprofessor said:


> Holy
> 
> Holy Cow those are nice. Shell or not, they are gorgeous. Any idea on the size?


----------



## tocohillsguy

With Florsheim, aren't the tongues typically cow even if the shoe is otherwise shell? In other words, if the tongue looks and feels like the rest of the shoe, doesn't that mean it's likely cow?


----------



## brantley11

tocohillsguy said:


> With Florsheim, aren't the tongues typically cow even if the shoe is otherwise shell? In other words, if the tongue looks and feels like the rest of the shoe, doesn't that mean it's likely cow?


Every pair I've ever seen or had have had a shell tongue. Not sure were that info came from. I think the backside of shell is smooth as supposed to rough and grainy on calf.


----------



## drlivingston

brantley11 said:


> Take a look and see if y'all agree with me that these are shell. I say yes because of the color variation, the white around the stiches on the tongue, the tongue color and the leather sticking out from behind the tongue lining is smooth.
> 
> What do y'all say?


Madre de Dios!!!! Those are NICE!!!! Size 8A?!?! Go ahead and get a USPS Priority shipping box ready to send to Japan. Don't sell them too fast. Set a ridiculously high BIN and wait for an offer that is acceptable.


----------



## tocohillsguy

brantley11 said:


> Every pair I've ever seen or had have had a shell tongue. Not sure were that info came from. I think the backside of shell is smooth as supposed to rough and grainy on calf.


Just an assumption on my part, because my V-cleat, 5 nail, black shell Florsheim PTBs have a black calfskin tongue. I assumed it must have been standard protocol, but perhaps only for black shell?


----------



## meanoldmanning

tocohillsguy said:


> Just an assumption on my part, because my V-cleat, 5 nail, black shell Florsheim PTBs have a black calfskin tongue. I assumed it must have been standard protocol, but perhaps only for black shell?


My #8 PTBs have the shell tongue


----------



## brantley11

tocohillsguy said:


> Just an assumption on my part, because my V-cleat, 5 nail, black shell Florsheim PTBs have a black calfskin tongue. I assumed it must have been standard protocol, but perhaps only for black shell?


Would you be so kind to post a picture showing the calf tongue on the shell? I have seen that on lesser quality shell like Stuart McQuire, Hanover, etc..., but never on Florsheim Imperial or Royal Imperial LWB.


----------



## tocohillsguy

brantley11 said:


> Would you be so kind to post a picture showing the calf tongue on the shell? I have seen that on lesser quality shell like Stuart McQuire, Hanover, etc..., but never on Florsheim Imperial or Royal Imperial LWB.


Okay, when I pulled them from the closet to take pictures, it suddenly occurred to me that the tongues are shell. The left shoe (right one in the picture) tricked me because it isn't as smooth as the tongue on the right shoe, but when I looked more closely I concluded they're both shell. Sorry for the confusion. By the way they look better in person. The flash really makes the rolls look white.


----------



## Jayzz

Guys a tad weird can't seem to find these numbers in the list: 631846
Florsheim imperials
Photo for references 























I think they are shell, are they?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 32rollandrock

Shell. No question.



Jayzz said:


> Guys a tad weird can't seem to find these numbers in the list: 631846
> Florsheim imperials
> Photo for references
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think they are shell, are they?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brantley11

^yes those are shell. Looks like they have seen a lot of wear.


----------



## drlivingston

Jayzz said:


> Guys a tad weird can't seem to find these numbers in the list: 631846
> Florsheim imperials
> Photo for references
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think they are shell, are they?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You are looking at the wrong set of numbers. There is a 5-digit number immediately to the lower left of "631846". It is faded, but will either be 97626 or 78006. As stated by others, they are most definitely shell.


----------



## Jayzz

drlivingston said:


> You are looking at the wrong set of numbers. There is a 5-digit number immediately to the lower left of "631846". It is faded, but will either be 97626 or 78006. As stated by others, they are most definitely shell.


Found it! 93605!
Thanks 8)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drlivingston

Jayzz said:


> Found it! 93605!
> Thanks 8)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


93605 is a winner! On my phone, it looked like the last number was a 6. That is why I posted the numbers that ended in 6.


----------



## Jayzz

I thought it was a 6 too it's dame hard to see when it's that faded

It's so hard I can't even take a photo lol

Any idea how old this baby is?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nobleprofessor

Jayzz said:


> I thought it was a 6 too it's dame hard to see when it's that faded
> 
> It's so hard I can't even take a photo lol
> 
> Any idea how old this baby is?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am certainly not an expert on these old FLorsheims, but I would guess they are from the 70's.


----------



## Nobleprofessor

tocohillsguy said:


> Okay, when I pulled them from the closet to take pictures, it suddenly occurred to me that the tongues are shell. The left shoe (right one in the picture) tricked me because it isn't as smooth as the tongue on the right shoe, but when I looked more closely I concluded they're both shell. Sorry for the confusion. By the way they look better in person. The flash really makes the rolls look white.


Those are really great looking shoes!


----------



## vpkozel

I am still trying to learn this shell thing, but saw these at one of my favorite thrift shops yesterday. They just looked a little different than the others, so I wanted to run this by the experts.

They are Lloyd and Haig custom built



They fit well, but I didn't buy them yet. If they are shell then I probably will drop the $8.


----------



## MythReindeer

vpkozel said:


> I am still trying to learn this shell thing, but saw these at one of my favorite thrift shops yesterday. They just looked a little different than the others, so I wanted to run this by the experts.
> 
> They are Lloyd and Haig custom built
> 
> 
> 
> They fit well, but I didn't buy them yet. If they are shell then I probably will drop the $8.


I am also not well-versed, but I doubt that those are shell. See the tiny "micro-creases" between the laces and the toe cap? Those are usually a dead giveaway for "not shell."


----------



## phyrpowr

vpkozel said:


> I am still trying to learn this shell thing, but saw these at one of my favorite thrift shops yesterday. They just looked a little different than the others, so I wanted to run this by the experts.
> 
> They are Lloyd and Haig custom built
> 
> 
> 
> They fit well, but I didn't buy them yet. If they are shell then I probably will drop the $8.


Definitely calf, but for $8 get them and take them to Dean's shoe shop on Selwyn for some Vibram soles: make a great "sideline Soccer Dad" shoe


----------



## vpkozel

phyrpowr said:


> Definitely calf, but for $8 get them and take them to Dean's shoe shop on Selwyn for some Vibram soles: make a great "sideline Soccer Dad" shoe


I use the guy in the back of Park Rd. Shopping center and have been very happy, but I may check out Dean's. This dad is generally on the sideline in actual soccer boots coaching, lol.

Do you live near Selwyn? I am around the corner from Park Rd. Shopping Center.


----------



## Woofa

Interesting thrifting week. First I found this pair of shell royal imperialism:








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Then I found these:







[/URL][/IMG]
These were together as a pair and pretty dirty so I did not look too closely. On closer inspection:







[/URL][/IMG]
Left from a 10 1/2 and:







[/URL][/IMG]
Right from an 11.

Both confirmed shell. I picked up the pair and will see what I can find in the future but I am willing to bet someone has a mismatched pair at home. Anyone find the others I am your man.


----------



## phyrpowr

vpkozel said:


> I use the guy in the back of Park Rd. Shopping center and have been very happy, but I may check out Dean's. This dad is generally on the sideline in actual soccer boots coaching, lol.
> 
> Do you live near Selwyn? I am around the corner from Park Rd. Shopping Center.


Nope, out Monroe Rd. beyond East Meck, but there's nothing here, so I'm a lot more familiar with Dilworth, Elizabeth, Park Rd. Shopping Ctr. areas from my former commutes from downtown


----------



## CrazyLarry

I think these are shell but could not find on the hunter's guide list (model # 475). Anyone know anything about these? The cloth medallion inside the shoe says 'Regency Quality' and the insole says something like 'BARCLAY Shoe Made Exclusively for Nettleton" - the writing is really faded so can't be sure. Also, they have the triangle metal cleat on the heel. Confirmation of shell and any other info would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

These shoes are indeed shell. I unfortunately cannot address your other points.


----------



## CrazyLarry

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> These shoes are indeed shell. I unfortunately cannot address your other points.


Thanks Barrister. I did finally find a pair of shoes on ebay that were 'Barclay for Nettleton' so at least I know I'm reading the faded insole correctly.


----------



## mreams99

Shell, or not?


----------



## drlivingston

mreams99 said:


> Shell, or not?


Got any more pics?


----------



## mreams99

drlivingston said:


> Got any more pics?


Does this help?


----------



## mreams99

There is also "8271" on these shoes


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Are they Allen Edmonds? If so the model called "Polo" was a corrected grain, a leather that sometimes look like shell. If they are AEs, a picture of the heel would be useful.


----------



## drlivingston

AE did make the Polo in shell. However, the model number is 8281.


----------



## Orgetorix

Yeah, those are the CG version of the Polo.


----------



## Woofa

Okay, thrifted these today and hoping:







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]
I really felt good about them but could not find the numbers in the guide. Looks like 34093 johnston and murphy. My size too. Appreciate your input.


----------



## wacolo

^^^^^
Shell.


----------



## meanoldmanning

Woofa said:


> Okay, thrifted these today and hoping:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> I really felt good about them but could not find the numbers in the guide. Looks like 34093 johnston and murphy. My size too. Appreciate your input.


I have two pair of J&M shell tassels. That 34093 isn't the model number, it is the number below that which you probably can't see any longer. Should probably start with 24-115?

But yeah I'd say shell.


----------



## YoungSoulRebel

Well done Sir! Absolute grail of mine!



Woofa said:


> Okay, thrifted these today and hoping:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> I really felt good about them but could not find the numbers in the guide. Looks like 34093 johnston and murphy. My size too. Appreciate your input.


----------



## Woofa

Thanks guys, you are right about the numbers not being visible. Yrs, if I thrift another I will try and remember.


----------



## 32rollandrock

Absolutely shell, and well done.



Woofa said:


> Thanks guys, you are right about the numbers not being visible. Yrs, if I thrift another I will try and remember.


----------



## Dieu et les Dames

I'm getting some shelly vibes from these wingtips on Gilt. Is that tongue sewn on?

https://www.gilt.com/brand/churchs/product/1101199753-churchs-grafton-wingtip-derby


----------



## Orgetorix

It is a pieced tongue. I think they're more likely to be Church's polished binder, or whatever they call it - very high grade CG. $682 is way too low to be RRP for crup/cordovan from Church's.


----------



## Dieu et les Dames

Very interesting! I don't think I've seen a pieced tongue on non-shells before.


----------



## Acme

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Very interesting! I don't think I've seen a pieced tongue on non-shells before.


I've seen plenty of pierced tongues on exotic dancers, but never on a pair of shoes. Is this a new fad?


----------



## Clay J

Sorry this is the best I can do at the moment... Shell or not shell? I think i see an 097 in the model number, and they look like Macneils...


----------



## drlivingston

Clay J said:


> View attachment 15115
> 
> Sorry this is the best I can do at the moment... Shell or not shell? I think i see an 097 in the model number, and they look like Macneils...


Great looking shoes! Definitely shell. MacNeil model 9097.


----------



## Clay J

> Originally Posted by *Clay J*https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1727809#post1727809
> Sorry this is the best I can do at the moment... Shell or not shell? I think i see an 097 in the model number, and they look like Macneils...
> 
> 
> Great looking shoes! Definitely shell. MacNeil model 9097.


That's good to hear. So long as they show up in the mail, it will be $45 well spent.


----------



## sskim3

Clay J said:


> That's good to hear. So long as they show up in the mail, it will be $45 well spent.


Great find!


----------



## vegtan

https://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=23967719 Shop Goodwill has a pair of Alden Shop of San Francisco shell cordovan Norwegian front blucher Oxfords. Style number 22220. Went up today, closing September 7 8:08 p.m. PT. Goodwill identifies them as "Alden Brown Shoes." Not my size. Enjoy.


----------



## drlivingston

vegtan said:


> https://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=23967719 Shop Goodwill has a pair of Alden Shop of San Francisco shell cordovan Norwegian front blucher Oxfords. Style number 22220. Went up today, closing September 7 8:08 p.m. PT. Goodwill identifies them as "Alden Brown Shoes." Not my size. Enjoy.


Not much of a secret on those. The bidding jumped from $42.99 to $156.99 in a matter of a few hours.


----------



## sskim3

drlivingston said:


> Not much of a secret on those. The bidding jumped from $42.99 to $156.99 in a matter of a few hours.


$250 now with 6 days left..... better off using ebay at that point.


----------



## vegtan

Decided to put all the Horween shell cordovan shades together in one color chart. https://fityn.com/horween-shell-cordovan-color-chart-in-shoes/ Well, all the shell cordovan colors and shades I could find. If you have more, here's the place to share.


----------



## Orgetorix

vegtan said:


> View attachment 15202
> 
> 
> Decided to put all the Horween shell cordovan shades together in one color chart. https://fityn.com/horween-shell-cordovan-color-chart-in-shoes/ Well, all the shell cordovan colors and shades I could find. If you have more, here's the place to share.


That's interesting. How did you determine some of the colors weren't duplicates or variations of the same factory colors, with different names applied? Or did you just take the makers' descriptions at face value?


----------



## Woofa

Vegtan, that is a really great link. Unfortunately, it gives me the impression that the pursuit of a varied cordovan shoe wardrobe will be a lifelong endeavor barring the fact that I win the lottery anytime soon.

Also, I am so glad you posted it because I did not realize that you could have cordovan scotch grain shoes. It may seem weird but after more than a year of coming to AAAC and SF I had no idea that this was possible. Now I feel as though I might have missed such shoes assuming they were calf. 
Can any of you advise further on how to recognize these? And here I had just gotten to the point of feeling confident I could recognize cordovan 9 times out of 10.
Thanks


----------



## vegtan

This pair of Alden Oxfords ended around $350. Definitely no bargain compared to eBay, unlike shopgoodwill auction 24066955 for London made John Lobb suede loafers that sold last week for $23.16.


----------



## vegtan

*Horween Shell Cordovan Color Chart*



Orgetorix said:


> That's interesting. How did you determine some of the colors weren't duplicates or variations of the same factory colors, with different names applied? Or did you just take the makers' descriptions at face value?


Went with Horween first. If Horween Leather Company or Nick Horween says a shoe color is green, then it's green. If Horween wants to call a color "Intense Blue," I'm going with Intense Blue.

Next up is major manufacturers Alden and Allen Edmonds. Since AE christened the walnut color in a 2011 catalog, then it is walnut, not light or medium brown.

After the majors come the specialists who know their shell, like Alden of Carmel, Leather Soul, Leffot, Ron Rider.

Finally, since this is written in American English, going with the most descriptive name and most common spelling. The Carmina Greeley boot in the color chart is "Ruby Red," because that is the name Carmina used for this boot. A current Carmina semi-brogue shell cordovan has the color name "rubi." Going with ruby red because it is more descriptive and much more likely someone will find "ruby" compared to "rubi" when searching.

Same shades with different names -- I don't see the same shades / colors in the Horween line. Will point out similarities when adding in the shell cordovan makers and colorists from Argentina, England, Italy, Japan, and the United States.


----------



## vegtan

Woofa said:


> Vegtan, that is a really great link. Unfortunately, it gives me the impression that the pursuit of a varied cordovan shoe wardrobe will be a lifelong endeavor barring the fact that I win the lottery anytime soon.
> 
> Also, I am so glad you posted it because I did not realize that you could have cordovan scotch grain shoes. It may seem weird but after more than a year of coming to AAAC and SF I had no idea that this was possible. Now I feel as though I might have missed such shoes assuming they were calf.
> Can any of you advise further on how to recognize these? And here I had just gotten to the point of feeling confident I could recognize cordovan 9 times out of 10.
> Thanks


A batting average of .900 is guaranteed Hall of Fame. Grain shell cordovan is so rare I'd stay concentrated on the traditional smooth offerings. After I finish up the other shell cordovan color charts I plan to do another update of the shell cordovan numbers list with a grain subset. Short of confirming with style numbers, would really like an AAAC member to post a side-by-side photo comparison of grain shell next to regular grain leather.


----------



## Dieu et les Dames

Are these shell? I think they might be calf because Alden makes the shells for BBBF


----------



## Reuben

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Are these shell? I think they might be calf because Alden makes the shells for BBBF


I don't see the puckering at the eyelets I'd expect from shell. My vote's calf.


----------



## eagle2250

^^Unless my eyes are deceiving me, it appears that micro creasing adorns the shoe's vamps...a sure indication of calfskin.


----------



## vegtan

Here's a pair of Florsheim Kenmoor 93605 shell cordovans up on eBay. Current schedule end tonight 7:04 p.m. Not that I'm the first one to see them. In the "People were also interested in" part of the listing, six of the seven other items shown are shell cordovan shoes. https://fityn.com/florsheim-kenmoor-shell-cordovan-hiding-in-plain-sight-ebay/


----------



## greekgeek

What say ye, shellmen?


----------



## chidochuck

greekgeek said:


> What say ye, shellmen?


Yes. Shell, for sure.


----------



## greekgeek

At this price, I hope you're right! :chinese:


----------



## chidochuck

They aren't the best pics but there is a lot of puckering going on around those laces.


----------



## greekgeek

They arrived, even nicer than the pics and indeed Shell! Sadly no box was included, contrary to the listing, however the shoe bags were included. Looks to have never even been tried on.


----------



## andrewjhorowitz

Are these Shell?


----------



## wacolo

andrewjhorowitz said:


> Are these Shell?


Nope.


----------



## FLMike

andrewjhorowitz said:


> Are these Shell?


Negative, Ghost Rider.


----------



## eagle2250

^^+1.
I agree with wacolo...those shoes may be burgundy in color, but they are not shell cordovan!


----------



## JDL II

Yup! Not shell. The tiny creases are indicative of calf. Shell will "roll"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Plus, to my knowledge, the Belgium was discontinued decades ago (the 1970s? ?). They must have been recently resoled. Interestingly, there's no picture of the inside of the shoe. That's very telling.


----------



## Suit of Nettles

andrewjhorowitz said:


> Are these Shell?


100% not shell.

Those are (as others have said) AE Belgiums, and the creasing is distinctive of calf.

What may have thrown off your 'shelldar' is the fact that the Belguims were made with fairly high-quality bookbinder leather, aka corrected-grain. Because there's no visible grain to the leather, if you overlook the way the leather has worn (eg. creased) bookbinder can start to look like shell, especially if you don't own any shell, and you really want the shoes you're looking at to be shell.

Bookbinder gets a very bad rap these days, and is (for the most part) indicative of cheaper, crappier leather and cheaper, crappier shoes, but AE's leather was typically decent. It remains, however, a colossal pain in the ass to maintain, which is why my black Belgiums have been retired to black-tie-only duty, and my merlot Belgiums only come out when only an oxblood wholecut will do, and nothing else will, which ain't often.


----------



## cellochris

Shell or not shell? An unrelated vintage Florsheim ebay auction:



enjoy!


----------



## Dmontez

cellochris said:


> Shell or not shell? An unrelated vintage Florsheim ebay auction:
> 
> enjoy!


that is absolutely shell.


----------



## cellochris

Dmontez said:


> that is absolutely shell.


These should fit, and I do not have a pair of burgundy shell LWB. What would be a reasonable bid?


----------



## Dmontez

cellochris said:


> These should fit, and I do not have a pair of burgundy shell LWB. *What would be a reasonable bid*?


seems to me $82.00 is the bid you have to place, If you are asking what they are worth the answer is whatever they end up selling for. I don't think I would spend more than 100 with shipping included.

to the part of your question that I have highlighted in bold, my question to you is why be reasonable? Is that your girlfriends father that's selling them? I have gotten a lot of flack for my stance on this, but on ebay make un-reasonable bids, and don't worry about offending someone. What's the worst they can do, say no? ignore you completely? Maybe make a lengthy post about you on TOF's ebay thread using a lot of your personal information?


----------



## cellochris

Dmontez said:


> seems to me $82.00 is the bid you have to place, If you are asking what they are worth the answer is whatever they end up selling for. I don't think I would spend more than 100 with shipping included.
> 
> to the part of your question that I have highlighted in bold, my question to you is why be reasonable? Is that your girlfriends father that's selling them? I have gotten a lot of flack for my stance on this, but on ebay make un-reasonable bids, and don't worry about offending someone. What's the worst they can do, say no? ignore you completely? Maybe make a lengthy post about you on TOF's ebay thread using a lot of your personal information?


Thanks Dmontez! I didn't phrase my question properly but you did answer what I was wondering - what would you spend? I placed a bid for $100 with shipping included. The soles look a bit worn and almost ready for resole, and the heels look pretty worn. I wouldn't want to invest too much on these without seeing them in person, so $100 with shipping seems good.


----------



## drlivingston

cellochris said:


> Shell or not shell? An unrelated vintage Florsheim ebay auction:
> 
> enjoy!


Yep... Without a doubt... genuine 93605 horse's ass.


----------



## drlivingston

cellochris said:


> Thanks Dmontez! I didn't phrase my question properly but you did answer what I was wondering - what would you spend? I placed a bid for $100 with shipping included. The soles look a bit worn and almost ready for resole, and the heels look pretty worn. I wouldn't want to invest too much on these without seeing them in person, so $100 with shipping seems good.


Dmontez is right... Do not spend over $100 on those.


----------



## cellochris

^ thanks gents. I have been summarily outbid. C'est la vie!


----------



## Dmontez

That's good. I think 100 with shipping included is overpaying. After further consideration I wouldn't go anymore than 75, but that's just me.


----------



## eagle2250

Indeed, the shoes are shell cordovan, but is anyone else concerned by the picture showing the backs of the shoes sitting side by side, in which the right shoe seems noticeably torqued to the outside? That shoe has been subjected to an unusual degree of stress and it shows. The obvious list of the right shoes back strap would concern me, as a prospective purchaser. :icon_scratch:


----------



## Acme

Well, I didn't think $100 was a bad deal for those shoes, but I suppose you guys think different. While we're on the subject, what do you guys think about this pair of Hanovers available from the same seller?


----------



## Lord Elgin

Hi everyone! I picked up these from ebay some time ago, bought them as shell, and have considered them being shell. But if they really were, why would there be something which looks like creasing on them? The feel and look of the material is otherwise as it should be (or as I assume it should be). Any ideas? 

Thanks for any comments.


----------



## eagle2250

^^The shoes are drying out, but do appear to be shell cordovan. How long has it been since you applied a bit of Venetian Cream to those shoes? :icon_scratch:


----------



## Dieu et les Dames

You can't reverse dried out leather but you can stop it from spreading. Like Eagle said, apply some venetian shoe cream. And I would give them a few days to rest while the cream absorbs, wear for a usual day and then apply again.


----------



## Lord Elgin

Thanks for your comments! Upon receiving these shoes I recall giving the a treatment with Saphir Creme Cordovan, but can only imagine the previous owner neglected all such care. Damage is done, but good to know damage can be stopped from spreading. Luckily the shoes don´t look nearly as bad in real life as in the pics.


----------



## cellochris

Interesting. I have very similar patterning starting at the very edge of one of the creases in a pair of PTB. Thinking it was just schmutz, I tried to brush and buff it out to no avail (a good 30 minutes). Now I am thinking perhaps the shell is just starting to dry out? Doubtful since they were a late December acquisition.


----------



## Lord Elgin

A bit off-topic already, but couldn´t resist showing what having the Saphir Creme Cordovan absorb overnight did to the shoe (compare with my picture few messages above). Quite a difference!

Originally I did as the Saphir instructions said - three minutes and then brushing. Well, instructions are just the manufacturer´s opinion...

A tiny crack did emerge, though...


----------



## cellochris

That looks much better!


----------



## Lord Elgin

cellochris said:


> That looks much better!


Thanks, yes, doesn´t it! Planning now to have it re-soled, and it needs some other work too. Saphir Creme Cordovan seems to do wonders.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

These shoes are indeed shell cordovan. Being very dried out, they need to be moisturized. Saphir Rénovateur, if you have some handy will help.


----------



## ccsabathia

what about these? Allen Edmonds Park Ave?


----------



## SG_67

ccsabathia said:


> View attachment 16252
> View attachment 16253
> 
> 
> what about these? Allen Edmonds Park Ave?


No...calf. Look at the creasing. Too fine for shell.


----------



## ccsabathia

SG_67 said:


> No...calf. Look at the creasing. Too fine for shell.


thanks for confirming!


----------



## cellochris

SG_67 said:


> No...calf. Look at the creasing. Too fine for shell.


+1 agreed


----------



## Youthful Repp-robate

Hello, friends!

I just thrifted these. They were noticeably dry when I got them - this is after two coats of Lexol (one of them overnight).

Can anyone tell if they're still dry, or have they simply lost pigment in the dry areas?


----------



## cellochris

I'm surprised they still look lighter in those areas after two treatments of Lexol. Do you have any VSC to try?

It may be that the lighter areas is pigment that faded, or a natural patina, but I defer to the members with more shell experience.


----------



## straw sandals

Hello, Gents:

These are cordovan. But what color? They look a little light for color 8:



Thoughts?


----------



## SG_67

straw sandals said:


> Hello, Gents:
> 
> These are cordovan. But what color? They look a little light for color 8:
> 
> Thoughts?


Well the listing has ended so the only pic I could see was the small thumbnail. However, I do believe it's #8. It may look a bit lighter due to wear and other polishing and perhaps due to lighting, but I don't think it's a different color.


----------



## straw sandals

I can still see the larger images if I roll over them. I'm the buyer, and am looking forward to some shell tassels. But they look much lighter than my BB LHS. It might be the lighting. We'll see when I get them!


----------



## Dieu et les Dames

Definitely #8 from looking up by model number (563). My older pair has similar color to these.


----------



## drlivingston

straw sandals said:


> I can still see the larger images if I roll over them. I'm the buyer, and am looking forward to some shell tassels. But they look much lighter than my BB LHS. It might be the lighting. We'll see when I get them!


I would send the guy a message asking him NOT to "clean and polish" them again prior to shipping. That is just more work that you are going to have to correct.


----------



## straw sandals

I already did! I said, "I plan on using Saphir and elbow grease". Looking forward to these.


----------



## Youthful Repp-robate

cellochris said:


> I'm surprised they still look lighter in those areas after two treatments of Lexol. Do you have any VSC to try?
> 
> It may be that the lighter areas is pigment that faded, or a natural patina, but I defer to the members with more shell experience.


I don't have any VSC but they might have it at a place near where I work. I know they stock Saphir and sell shell shoes - what's the word on the Saphir Creme Cordovan? They might have that.

I think I can get VSC at Leffot but I won't be in Manhattan again until the end of the month.


----------



## Watchman

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> I don't have any VSC but they might have it at a place near where I work. I know they stock Saphir and sell shell shoes - what's the word on the Saphir Creme Cordovan? They might have that.
> 
> I think I can get VSC at Leffot but I won't be in Manhattan again until the end of the month.


Both products are worth having IMO.

VSC is cheaper, Saphir is a little better overall...


----------



## pmestrad

Alright guys, I think I know the answer to this (and I think that is no), but what are your thoughts on these? Shell?


----------



## sskim3

pmestrad said:


> Alright guys, I think I know the answer to this (and I think that is no), but what are your thoughts on these? Shell?


Nope. Back to the drawing board.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Not shell, but rather, corrected grain!


----------



## gamma68

Footwear experts:

I was pretty stoked to pick these up for a nice price off eBay, but now that they've arrived, I'm not sure if they're truly shell cordovan. 

Vintage Whitehouse & Hardy gunboats, which I believe are Johnston & Murphy.

These are fresh out of the box, only wiped down with a damp cloth.

Apologies for the LARGE photos. But I want to be sure to properly ID these. Thanks in advance.


----------



## wacolo

^^^
Shell.


----------



## gamma68

wacolo said:


> ^^^
> Shell.


Thanks for the quick reply.

Shell? Even with the slight creases?


----------



## cellochris

gamma68 said:


> Thanks for the quick reply.
> 
> Shell? Even with the slight creases?


I think they are shell, perhaps just a bit dry?


----------



## gamma68

cellochris said:


> I think they are shell, perhaps just a bit dry?


They seem dry to me, although this is my first pair of shells to keep, so I'm not entirely sure. I had thought shell is permeated with oils.

So so how can I rectify the dryness? I want to take good care of these.


----------



## JDL II

gamma68 said:


> They seem dry to me, although this is my first pair of shells to keep, so I'm not entirely sure. I had thought shell is permeated with oils.
> 
> So so how can I rectify the dryness? I want to take good care of these.


Saphir renovateur or venetian shoe cream.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Gamma provided very clear and expandable pictures. The uppers appear in excellent shape. Brushing and buffing should do the trick, as they are shell. Keep in mind that creases in regular shoes are dark, whereas the creases in the pictured shoes are almost white. That' one of the tell tale signs of shell cordovan. Congratulations Gamma!


----------



## wacolo

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Gamma provided very clear and expandable pictures. The uppers appear in excellent shape. Brushing and buffing should do the trick, as they are shell. Keep in mind that creases in regular shoes are dark, whereas the creases in the pictured shoes are almost white. That' one of the tell tale signs of shell cordovan. Congratulations Gamma!


+1 I generally tree mine, turn on a ballgame and go to town with my horsehair brush. Maybe give a touch of polish depending on the condition of the uppers. Nice find! It is a brand I never have come across.


----------



## drlivingston

wacolo said:


> +1 I generally tree mine, turn on a ballgame and go to town with my horsehair brush. Maybe give a touch of polish depending on the condition of the uppers. * Nice find! It is a brand I never have come across*.


Sure you have. They are basically re-named J&M Aristocrafts.


----------



## gamma68

Thanks, fellas. The horsehair brush and microfiber cloth are already yielding results.


----------



## wacolo

Pics are blurry but I am guessing shell.


----------



## cellochris

wacolo said:


> Pics are blurry but I am guessing shell.


The nice rolls seem to indicate shell but I'd want a cleaner pic, otherwise it's a $60 toss of the dice!


----------



## drlivingston

wacolo said:


> Pics are blurry but I am guessing shell.


Any Barrie shell PTBs that I have handled have had v-cleats. The Cat's Paw heels are replacements so it is hard to tell. They look like shell to me. It cracks me up that Cat's Paw heels actually have somewhat of a cult following.


----------



## Pentheos

wacolo said:


> Pics are blurry but I am guessing shell.


99% certain those are shell, and a good price. I'd buy them.


----------



## drlivingston

Here's one for you guys. Vintage Dexter longwing bluchers model 217644. At first glance, I thought that they were shell cordovan. However, upon closer examination, I noticed what appear to be micro-creases. The model number shows up on the shell cordovan registry as #8 longwings. Can it just be micro-cracks on inferior shell?


----------



## phyrpowr

They don't seem to "rumple" just the way shell does, and something about the toe finish looks CG. Reputable company, though, and a nice looking rainy day shoe for the right price.


----------



## wacolo

drlivingston said:


> Here's one for you guys. Vintage Dexter longwing bluchers model 217644. At first glance, I thought that they were shell cordovan. However, upon closer examination, I noticed what appear to be micro-creases. The model number shows up on the shell cordovan registry as #8 longwings. Can it just be micro-cracks on inferior shell?




Here is a pair that is definitely calf that has the same model number.


----------



## cellochris

drlivingston said:


> Here's one for you guys. Vintage Dexter longwing bluchers model 217644. At first glance, I thought that they were shell cordovan. However, upon closer examination, I noticed what appear to be micro-creases. The model number shows up on the shell cordovan registry as #8 longwings. Can it just be micro-cracks on inferior shell?


Interesting. Could it be some sort of acrylic finish that is creating the micro-cracks vs the actual shell itself?

No idea about the model number re: calf vs shell


----------



## Pentheos

These ones have we stumped. Not a typical offering from Alden, but a special order for Barneys. Shell? No matter, not my size or style, but they're a good deal for a 13 D if they're your kind of thing.


Edit: someone bought them shortly after I posted them here. If you did, and get them, and they are shell cordovan, let us know.


----------



## SG_67

Pentheos said:


> These ones have we stumped. Not a typical offering from Alden, but a special order for Barneys. Shell? No matter, not my size or style, but they're a good deal for a 13 D if they're your kind of thing.
> 
> Edit: someone bought them shortly after I posted them here. If you did, and get them, and they are shell cordovan, let us know.


Hard to tell with those. The creasing I do see, however, has more of that rumpled look like I would expect from shell. I wish the seller had taken better pics.


----------



## drlivingston

Pentheos said:


> These ones have we stumped. Not a typical offering from Alden, but a special order for Barneys. Shell? No matter, not my size or style, but they're a good deal for a 13 D if they're your kind of thing.
> 
> *
> Edit: someone bought them shortly after I posted them here. If you did, and get them, and they are shell cordovan, let us know.*


That would be me... I was very curious. The model number is 5535. The 553 is a calfskin longwing tassel loafer. However, I am wondering if the 5535 might have been a special shell make for Barneys. These shoes seem shell-like in so many respects. Alas, they are probably calf. Oh well, it was fun to check.


----------



## Pentheos

So are they shell or not? You seem unsure.

Are you going to keep them are wear them?


----------



## drlivingston

Pentheos said:


> So are they shell or not? You seem unsure.
> 
> Are you going to keep them are wear them?


For the life of me, I am unsure. I am just going to call them calfskin and avoid any problems. I have tried to bend them at the vamps to bring about creasing. Nothing... just waves. Alden customer service is less than helpful.


----------



## Pentheos

They sure look like shell to me. Are you going to resell them? (not my size)


----------



## drlivingston

Pentheos said:


> They sure look like shell to me. Are you going to resell them? (not my size)


Yes, I will probably let them go. They are too big for me. I just like to rehab shell shoes. If they were AE, and I wasn't sure about their material, I could call and get a definite answer. Not so with Alden. You get an early 20-something year old girl who has a tendency to say "I don't know" a lot.


----------



## Pentheos

Call Barney's?


----------



## cellochris

Or try calling Ed at the ShoeMart?


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## drlivingston

cellochris said:


> Or try calling Ed at the ShoeMart?


I tried... That is how I got the young girl. If you try calling Alden corporate, you get a "noone is available to take your call" message. Annoying.


----------



## cellochris

drlivingston said:


> I tried... That is how I got the young girl. If you try calling Alden corporate, you get a "noone is available to take your call" message. Annoying.


That is annoying. I'll be home in Connecticut during Thanksgiving and might drop by. If so I'll see if I can get 5 minutes of Ed's time and see what he knows.


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## phyrpowr

drlivingston said:


> For the life of me, I am unsure. I am just going to call them calfskin and avoid any problems. I have tried to bend them at the vamps to bring about creasing. Nothing... just waves. Alden customer service is less than helpful.


The "rumpling" looks about right, and the little scuffs on the left toe look like the way shell scuffs. I had a pair like that in high school....in Corfam.


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## cellochris

:










But the micocreasing seems to indicate otherwise. Perhaps it is just a poor application of wax polish?


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## eagle2250

^^Indeed, horsehide is not necessarily shell cordovan...
and in this instance it is surely not!


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## drlivingston

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Indeed, horsehide is not necessarily shell cordovan...
> and in this instance it is surely not!


Those shoes are a bad choice on many levels. First, they are horribly over-priced (by about $110). Second, they are calfskin, not shell cordovan. Third, they are mis-sized. They are a UK 8.5, which, in Cheaney/Church's sizing, equates to an US 9.5.


----------



## wacolo




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## Barrister & Solicitor

These vintage Florsheims do appear to be shell. The heels may have to be fixed as the v- cleat appears to be at an angle.


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## cellochris

Indeed. 10.5C . . . womp womp


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## vegtan

Shell. A PM to the seller asking for the interior side numbers would confirm. Amount of wear on bottom soles would have caused leather creases on tops by now. That and eyelet dimples another indicator of shell.


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## cellochris

Womp Womp.


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## drlivingston

cellochris said:


> Womp Womp.


Someone is setting himself up for a NAD case.


----------



## mpietrus27

Got a pair of Brooks Brothers Devon shoes made in England by Brooks English. The inside reads 1 410 B M75, X764, 212 6 131. Who makes em and are they shell?


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## wacolo

mpietrus27 said:


> Got a pair of Brooks Brothers Devon shoes made in England by Brooks English. The inside reads 1 410 B M75, X764, 212 6 131. Who makes em and are they shell?


Pics would help. My guess as to the maker would be Churchs.


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## drlivingston

mpietrus27 said:


> Got a pair of Brooks Brothers Devon shoes made in England by Brooks English. The inside reads 1 410 B M75, X764, 212 6 131. Who makes em and are they shell?


Every pair of Brooks English Devons that I have held were scotch grain leather wingtip bals. The ones that I have owned were made by Cheaney.


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## SG_67

cellochris said:


> Womp Womp.





drlivingston said:


> Someone is setting himself up for a NAD case.


He's also representing these as shell:

I wonder if he even knows was shell cordovan is.


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## vegtan

Shell labeled calfskin on eBay. https://fityn.com/alden-shell-cordovan-listed-as-calfskin/


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## mpietrus27

Not too sure who the manufacturer of the shoes are...any help? I do know they are Brooks Brothers shell cordovan though.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brooks-Brothers-Devon-Brown-Size-10-Shell-Cordovan-Made-in-England-Vintage-/322336020095?hash=item4b0cb9567f:g:dNIAAOSwXeJYM3D0


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## Pentheos

You're selling these shoes. Why do you care? To ask for a higher BIN?



mpietrus27 said:


> Not too sure who the manufacturer of the shoes are...any help? I do know they are Brooks Brothers shell cordovan though.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brooks-Brothers-Devon-Brown-Size-10-Shell-Cordovan-Made-in-England-Vintage-/322336020095?hash=item4b0cb9567f:g:dNIAAOSwXeJYM3D0


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## Mudstrap

Hi everyone this is my first post on this forum. I just bought a pair of AE Leed Cordovan:
https://m.ebay.ca/itm/Allen-Edmonds...-blucher-derbys-size-13-E-/201776992120?txnId

I would like to know if some recrafting should be done on these shoes and if it seems to be a fair deal for these used AE. I really like the color and the style.
Thanks in advance for your feedback!


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## SG_67

^ Those could certainly use recrafting.


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## drlivingston

Mudstrap said:


> Hi everyone it is my first post on this forum. I just bought a pair of AE Leed Cordovan:
> https://m.ebay.ca/itm/Allen-Edmonds...-blucher-derbys-size-13-E-/201776992120?txnId
> 
> I would like to knoe if some recrafting should be done on these shoes and if it seems to be a fair deal for these used AE. I really like the color and the style.
> Thanks in adance for your feedback!


Welcome to the party! Yes, indeed, those are very nice and a good price. They could certainly use a recrafting for proper fit. Replacing the cork inlay will allow each shoe to properly mold to your foot's unique contours. Now, for the quirky part. AE reserves the right to not work on shoes that have been worked on by outside cobblers. Those shoes have been at least reheeled. I am not sure about the soles. Odds are they will do the work. But, then again, I don't like to make promises.


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## eagle2250

Mudstrap said:


> Hi everyone this is my first post on this forum. I just bought a pair of AE Leed Cordovan:
> https://m.ebay.ca/itm/Allen-Edmonds...-blucher-derbys-size-13-E-/201776992120?txnId
> 
> I would like to know if some recrafting should be done on these shoes and if it seems to be a fair deal for these used AE. I really like the color and the style.
> Thanks in advance for your feedback!


From the pics, it appears those shoes have been recrafted before and from their condition it appears, as observed by SG 67, that they are due for another recrafting. However, there comes a time when AE tells us that a particular shoe may be unsuitable for recrafting. I have a pair of AE shell cordovan Leeds that are approaching 40 years in use and the last time I sent them in, AE advised that they would not be suitable for any additional recraftings due to the condition of the shoe's lining(s). Looking at the pics of your shoes, tears have been worn in the lining(s) in the heel area and may be present in areas of the shoes that cannot be seen in the pics. If so, they may not be recraftable. Hope the response you get from AE is positive!


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## Mudstrap

eagle2250 said:


> From the pics, it appears those shoes have been recrafted before and from their condition it appears, as observed by SG 67, that they are due for another recrafting. However, there comes a time when AE tells us that a particular shoe may be unsuitable for recrafting. I have a pair of AE shell cordovan Leeds that are approaching 40 years in use and the last time I sent them in, AE advised that they would not be suitable for any additional recraftings due to the condition of the shoe's lining(s). Looking at the pics of your shoes, tears have been worn in the lining(s) in the heel area and may be present in areas of the shoes that cannot be seen in the pics. If so, they may not be recraftable. Hope the response you get from AE is positive!


Thanks for your review. Now I feel I made a bad investment... What are my options if AE doesn't want to recraft?Does it mean the shoes are not recraftable anymore or I can used the services of a local place?


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## Orgetorix

Try sending them to B. Nelson shoes if AE won't work on them.

https://www.bnelsonshoes.com/default.asp


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## eagle2250

^^
Is the lining damaged in the forward portion/toebox area of the shoes? The damaged lining in the heel cup is repairable, as I understand it. Also, don't get discouraged by a single post offered by me or any other member. The exterior hide on those shoes looks to be in pretty good shape (from looking at the pics) and the lining in my Leeds had aged, cracked and torn in the toebox are of the shoes. Reserve any sense of discouragement for after you have communicated with Allen Edmonds and they have told you the shoes are not recraftable. Good luck in your quest!


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## katch

I personally think the shoes are in fine condition and If you were to send to aE for recrafting, it would/should be no problem. Enjoy your new (to you) shoes.


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## Mudstrap

Thanks for all your feedbacks. My shoes have been shipped and Im very excited to see them for real. I also have a brand new pair of AE black Park Av. 13D and they are a bit tight on the wide(may be it's because they are brand new) I guess the 13E will fit my feet well.


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## Mudstrap

I got my shoes today and they look amazing... they are very heavy.


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## cellochris

Very nice! How do they fit?


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## SG_67

Shell cordovan is quite dense compared to calfskin of equal thickness.


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## Mudstrap

cellochris said:


> Very nice! How do they fit?


It is weird because my new AE Parck Av. 13D are a bit tight and these 13E Leeds are very wide but it fits well to my feet.


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## meanoldmanning

Mudstrap said:


> It is weird because my new AE Parck Av. 13D are a bit tight and these 13E Leeds are very wide but it fits well to my feet.


Different lasts, different fit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TDWat

What do you think about these Allen Edmonds?
https://postimg.org/image/6el25zjqx/

https://postimg.org/image/srsssskop/

https://postimg.org/image/6twbz05o9/

https://postimg.org/image/nvp613kjd/


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## Keydet

I think yes, but if you can get the model number then of course it is easy to confirm.


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## Orgetorix

Shell with some gunk in the folds.


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## TDWat

Keydet said:


> I think yes, but if you can get the model number then of course it is easy to confirm.


It's 9187, which is a shell number. With one of the other shell MacNeil numbers (I think 9097) Allen Edmonds has reused it on calf leather, so I wasn't 100% on these.



Orgetorix said:


> Shell with some gunk in the folds.


 Any suggestions on what to do about that? Vigorous brushing/buffing got a bit of it off, but they're still pretty dark in the folds.


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## cellochris

TDWat said:


> Any suggestions on what to do about that? Vigorous brushing/buffing got a bit of it off, but they're still pretty dark in the folds.


They are shell.

Use, very carefully, Saphir RenoMat.

https://www.amazon.com/Saphir-RenoMat-Cleaner-Stain-Remover/dp/B0168VW6XI

-Chris


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## SG_67

Better yet, send them off to AE to be recrafted. 

They are used shoes. They've broke in according to another's foot and gait pattern. Get them overhauled and cleaned and enjoy them.


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## cellochris

SG_67 said:


> Better yet, send them off to AE to be recrafted.
> 
> They are used shoes. They've broke in according to another's foot and gait pattern. Get them overhauled and cleaned and enjoy them.


Good call.


----------



## Lodemia

These have me puzzled. They look like they could be cordovan, but could just be shiny calf because of the creasing at the folds. What do you think? Shell or no?


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## wacolo

Lodemia said:


> These have me puzzled. They look like they could be cordovan, but could just be shiny calf because of the creasing at the folds. What do you think? Shell or no?


Nope.


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## Barrister & Solicitor

I would vote for corrected grain leather.


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## drlivingston

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> I would vote for corrected grain leather.


That would not be a wasted vote.


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## mreams99

How about these Stuart Mcguire longwings?


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## drlivingston

mreams99 said:


> How about these Stuart Mcguire longwings?


I am leaning toward no. There is evidence of micro-creasing on the vamps. I could be wrong.


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## cellochris

drlivingston said:


> I am leaning toward no. There is evidence of micro-creasing on the vamps. I could be wrong.


Agreed.


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## drlivingston

Figure these out... :confused2:


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## wacolo

drlivingston said:


> Figure these out... :confused2:


Ahhh, the rarest of the rare. Shuede Cordovan.


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## SG_67

drlivingston said:


> Figure these out... :confused2:


That is odd! The soles are stamped with AE's shell cordovan identifier. This must have been a screw up at the factory.

In defense of the seller, he may just be using "shell cordovan" based on this and trying to be as descriptive in his listing.

I wonder if this is the shoe version of the upside down airplane stamp?


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## drlivingston

My guess is that, when they were sent in for recrafting, those were the only soles that AE had in stock to accommodate the 15AAA last.


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## SG_67

^ that is a rather unusual size so that would make sense.


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## Barrister & Solicitor

But that doesn't explain the dove tail heel. Unfortunately, the pictures of the upper are too dark.


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## Barrister & Solicitor

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> But that doesn't explain the dove tail heel. Unfortunately, the pictures of the upper are too dark.


Ok I managed to make the pictures work and the most explanation is that only shell cordovan marked soles were available, perhaps at the time of the original manufacturing.


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## SG_67

^ if that's the case it would be truly sad.


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## drlivingston

SG_67 said:


> ^ if that's the case it would be truly sad.


Honestly, does it really surprise you?


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## Orgetorix

They could have been a custom order and the buyer requested Rendenbach soles. All the ones AE had available would have been pre-stamped with the shell cordovan text.


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## cellochris

Orgetorix said:


> They could have been a custom order and the buyer requested Rendenbach soles. All the ones AE had available would have been pre-stamped with the shell cordovan text.


+1

text to post


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## balla25

Are these shoes shell? Also, any word on the possible maker? Thanks


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## drlivingston

Definitely shell... Maker? I have no idea.


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## bballa

Thanks for the confirmation drlivingston!


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## SG_67

I'm pretty sure those heels are aftermarket, and even then pretty beat up. 

Judging from some of the others he has for sale, either Florsheim or Bostonian.


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## cellochris

I have a soft spot for LWB. I bet B. Nelson could probably breathe some life into those. If they were my size I'd give it a go! From my monitor those look cigar or chocolate shell . . .


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## tofu

Looked like shell in the blurry photos, but those micro creases say calf. Still has a shell patina and puffy eyelets. 

Maybe just dry?


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## Barrister & Solicitor

tofu said:


> Looked like shell in the blurry photos, but those micro creases say calf. Still has a shell patina and puffy eyelets.
> 
> Maybe just dry?


Is there a photo of the heel by any chance? If it's a dovetail (leather and rubber) one it's shell, assuming it is original.


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## tofu

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Is there a photo of the heel by any chance? If it's a dovetail (leather and rubber) one it's shell, assuming it is original.


There's a photo of the heel, but it's one piece. May be aftermarket. We'll see if i hit the shell lotto or not


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## Barrister & Solicitor

Looks like they've sold.


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## drlivingston

Doesn't matter. There is strong evidence of micro-creasing. I am almost certain that those are calf.


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## tofu

drlivingston said:


> Doesn't matter. There is strong evidence of micro-creasing. I am almost certain that those are calf.


Only reason i wasn't certain on the creasing clue was because i have the same creasing on my shell wallet from ashland. thanks


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## gamma68

I'm 99.99% sure these are shell. But I'd like confirmation from the experts (click to enlarge):


----------



## TDWat

gamma68 said:


> I'm 99.99% sure these are shell. But I'd like confirmation from the experts (click to enlarge):


It's a hard to tell because the folds aren't pronounced, but the the dimpling on the eyelets and the dye variation would make me guess shell.


----------



## mikeh

Don't know whether I qualify as an expert, but I'd definitely say shell.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Ony Shell creases white like this. Nice find!


----------



## drlivingston

Can I get a picture of the numbers inside the shoes, @gamma68 ?


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## gamma68

drlivingston said:


> Can I get a picture of the numbers inside the shoes, @gamma68 ?


----------



## drlivingston

Usually, there is a 4-digit number below the 8-digit number. I was looking for 2168, which is the model number for #8 Hanover ptb's.


----------



## gamma68

drlivingston said:


> Usually, there is a 4-digit number below the 8-digit number. I was looking for 2168, which is the model number for #8 Hanover ptb's.


There are no other numbers inside the shoes. I'm not sure what that indicates.

The creasing is very similar to my other pair of shells. Unless there are other opinions, I think I'll call these shell.


----------



## Sgpearl

gamma68 said:


> There are no other numbers inside the shoes. I'm not sure what that indicates.
> 
> The creasing is very similar to my other pair of shells. Unless there are other opinions, I think I'll call these shell.


I vote for shell.


----------



## drlivingston

gamma68 said:


> There are no other numbers inside the shoes. I'm not sure what that indicates.
> 
> The creasing is very similar to my other pair of shells. Unless there are other opinions, I think I'll call these shell.


Don't get me wrong, I am not denying their shelliness. I just like verification.


----------



## medicfourlife

Ok, this one has me stumped. Any insight? Labeled as Johnston & Murphy, no other data.


----------



## Pentheos

medicfourlife said:


> Ok, this one has me stumped. Any insight? Labeled as Johnston & Murphy, no other data.


I would be shocked if those were shell. I can see creasing. I can see padding.


----------



## Pentheos

Those Hanovers above are definitely shell.


----------



## cellochris

Agreed. Picture s-l1600-jpg shows micro creasing. Probably corrected grain?

edit: agreed, the hanovers look like shell


----------



## eagle2250

^^I agree with cellochris.

Those (post #2459) are corrected grain


----------



## gevans

A pair of Hanover Black PTB which I found at a local thrift store. Good find in my opinion even if not shell.


----------



## drlivingston

gevans said:


> A pair of Hanover Black PTB which I found at a local thrift store. Good find in my opinion even if not shell.
> View attachment 20864
> 
> View attachment 20866
> 
> View attachment 20867


Those are horse ass.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

They are indeed shell. Since you will be selling them on EBay, make sure to list them as 9 EEE, with a heel size of EE. The size indicates a combination last. They are thus extra wide shoes.


----------



## almosthandsome

PTBs from Fellman Ltd with V cleat. Just when I'm convinced they're shell I second guess myself. Opinions? Also, anyone know about Fellman?


----------



## cortman

almosthandsome said:


> PTBs from Fellman Ltd with V cleat. Just when I'm convinced they're shell I second guess myself. Opinions? Also, anyone know about Fellman?


Those look like creases on the vamp. Not shell is my vote.


----------



## eagle2250

To my eye, they look to be shell cordovan...perhaps old dried out shell cordovan, but shell nonetheless! And now we wait, as time will tell. LOL.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

eagle2250 said:


> To my eye, they look to be shell cordovan...perhaps old dried out shell cordovan, but shell nonetheless! And now we wait, as time will tell. LOL.


I agree with Eagle. A close up picture of the rolls on the vamp would assist in making a better determination. So would a few minutes of brushing with a horse hair brush before you take the next photo.


----------



## cellochris

eagle2250 said:


> To my eye, they look to be shell cordovan...perhaps old dried out shell cordovan, but shell nonetheless! And now we wait, as time will tell. LOL.





Barrister & Solicitor said:


> I agree with Eagle. A close up picture of the rolls on the vamp would assist in making a better determination. So would a few minutes of brushing with a horse hair brush before you take the next photo.


Agreed. Probably shell but a close up of the vamp would be helpful.


----------



## almosthandsome

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> I agree with Eagle. A close up picture of the rolls on the vamp would assist in making a better determination. So would a few minutes of brushing with a horse hair brush before you take the next photo.


Thanks for the replies, everyone. Here's a closer shot of the vamp along with before and after from original cleanup. How well they responded to lots of brushing pushed me towards the affirmative but, again, I dither.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

Another neat aspect of shell is that it creases white. I also don't see microcreases. If would be extremely surprised if these shoes are not shell. Nice score.


----------



## cellochris

Agreed. Thar be Shell. irate:


----------



## Dandan

Hi folks,

This is probably not the right place to post this, but I didn't want to start a new thread just for this. If I should have posted elsewhere, I'd appreciate it if someone could let me know. 

Somebody in Austria is selling a pair of Allen Edmonds MacNeils in shell cordovan, size 9.5, for 70 euros starting bid. They need some care, but they look to be in acceptable condition, and nobody has bid on them so far.

I don't think the person selling them knows very much about them: they misspell "MacNeil," don't list them as shell cordovan, and indicate that US 9.5 is EU 43.5 when it's actually 42.5. 

They claim to only ship to the EU. If anybody outside the EU wants them and the seller won't ship them there, feel free to pm me. You can have them sent to me in Germany and I can forward them on for a reimbursement of the shipping costs. DHL standard shipping to the US, for example, is 15.89 euros if it's under 2kg, and 36.99 if it's over. I assume it would be under 2 kg, but I'm not sure.


----------



## IT_cyclist

Dandan said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> This is probably not the right place to post this, but I didn't want to start a new thread just for this. If I should have posted elsewhere, I'd appreciate it if someone could let me know.
> 
> Somebody in Austria is selling a pair of Allen Edmonds MacNeils in shell cordovan, size 9.5, for 70 euros starting bid. They need some care, but they look to be in acceptable condition, and nobody has bid on them so far.
> 
> I don't think the person selling them knows very much about them: they misspell "MacNeil," don't list them as shell cordovan, and indicate that US 9.5 is EU 43.5 when it's actually 42.5.
> 
> They claim to only ship to the EU. If anybody outside the EU wants them and the seller won't ship them there, feel free to pm me. You can have them sent to me in Germany and I can forward them on for a reimbursement of the shipping costs. DHL standard shipping to the US, for example, is 15.89 euros if it's under 2kg, and 36.99 if it's over. I assume it would be under 2 kg, but I'm not sure.


Pretty sure they are shell...
Searching on the codes shown in photo...
https://www.allenedmonds.com/shoes/...shell-cordovan-wingtip-dress-shoe/SF9097.html


----------



## Dandan

They are listed as shell here: https://shellcordovanmodels.com/


----------

