# Allen Edmonds Recrafting + Metal Toe Taps



## cvac (Aug 6, 2006)

Does anyone here have any experience with having metal toe taps installed on a pair of AEs then sending them back later for recrafting?

I know AE doesn't like to have other cobblers resole your shoes if they are to work on them later, but would the toe taps disqualify my shoes from a factory recraft later on?

I just wore my new AEs for the first couple of times outside on the street and the leather on the toe area of the sole seems to be wearing a little quicker than I'd like. To be fair, I did run in them for about a block and a half the first day I wore them because I was running late for something important. Ended up getting there on time, but it wore down the toe leather of the sole more than I'd like.

Also, for recrafting at the factory, is it possible to "upgrade" your recraft soles to Rendenbachs or the AE leather / rubber combination stubby sole that they use on some of their shoes?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

The toe taps shouldn't be a problen if they are of the surface mounted variety. In the event they are of the inset variety, AE might give you quite a different answer. Regarding upgrading the soles and heels on a recraft job, AE will do so on request and suprisingly...they did not charge additional for doing so!


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

I'm not getting the recent fascination with metal toe plates......been getting numerous requests for this lately.

I suppose it is another example of the quality shoe repair business struggling/disappearing, but there is no reason, IMO, for metal or plastic/rubber toe plates to be put on shoes. If the toes wear out that fast, then chances are your shoes don't fit well - and even so, if you take your shoes to a good shop, they will simply replace the toe area with new leather. This can be done well ahead of a full sole and heel job, and should be part of routine shoe care.

I don't know, just my opinion I guess, but what is it that some hope to gain by adding metal toe plates? I can see some European (especially Eastern European) consumers needing this, as they can find themselves on uneven cobblestones regularly, but I just don't see the need for an American consumer.

So, what's the beneft here?


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

rider said:


> So, what's the beneft here?


If you find yourself short on cash you can turn your hat upside down and start tap dancing?


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

marlinspike said:


> If you find yourself short on cash you can turn your hat upside down and start tap dancing?


I know! That is exactly what the owner of our factory said when I promised a client I would inquire......'what, our customer in America now tippy-tap dancers?".

There is also something else that just occured to me......we recently received notice from one of our big private label accounts that we (and all) suppliers are to IMMEDIATELY discontinue the use of brass slugs as a design feature on outsoles, as they have had 7 'claims' this past season alone for damage to marble floors/foyers. I imagine if a screw comes loose on some of the metal plates I have seen examples of, it could do some damage.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

rider said:


> I'm not getting the recent fascination with metal toe plates......been getting numerous requests for this lately.
> 
> I suppose it is another example of the quality shoe repair business struggling/disappearing, but there is no reason, IMO, for metal or plastic/rubber toe plates to be put on shoes. If the toes wear out that fast, then chances are your shoes don't fit well - and even so, if you take your shoes to a good shop, they will simply replace the toe area with new leather. This can be done well ahead of a full sole and heel job, and should be part of routine shoe care.
> 
> ...


The toe always wears down in the first fraction of an inch with normal wear. It is not a question of poor fit, or cobblestones.

US toe plates seem quite substantial, but the smaller metal Blakey tips solve the problem just as well.

Alternatively, you can just live with the front tip tapering off through wear.

I have not heard of the toe leather getting replaced. Half soles are the standard repair option.


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## cvac (Aug 6, 2006)

In areas of the country where it gets very cold in the winter, sidewalks often crack and are in poor shape due to the hot and cold seasonal weather. This is a major problem in my home state, not only with sidewalks but also with roads.

I'm interested in metal toe taps because I think they look better than stick on soles or those rubber/nylon toe taps people wear.



rider said:


> I'm not getting the recent fascination with metal toe plates......been getting numerous requests for this lately.
> 
> I suppose it is another example of the quality shoe repair business struggling/disappearing, but there is no reason, IMO, for metal or plastic/rubber toe plates to be put on shoes. If the toes wear out that fast, then chances are your shoes don't fit well - and even so, if you take your shoes to a good shop, they will simply replace the toe area with new leather. This can be done well ahead of a full sole and heel job, and should be part of routine shoe care.
> 
> ...


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

A Topy I get because it has uniform thickness, but taps on nice shoes make no sense to me. Isn't the whole point to have the shoe wear to your walking pattern so it becomes as comfortable as possible? This reminds me of people who rotate the tires on expensive performance cars because it makes the tires last longer, nevermind the fact that you want the tires to wear into their pattern to get the best handling out of the car you spent $80k on, and you're sacrificing that for the few hundred bucks spent on tires.


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

> The toe always wears down in the first fraction of an inch with normal wear. It is not a question of poor fit, or cobblestones.


Hmmmmm......'always'? Please look at this picture -










I think you will see little/no wear at the toe, but normal wear at the ball.....this is how a shoe should fit; and wear.

In 20+ years of fitting better shoes, and owning my own shoe company, I would guess that almost 50% of the people I have served have requested a size too short for them.

As for the cobblestone comment, that comes straight from a manufacturer in said region......



> I have not heard of the toe leather getting replaced. Half soles are the standard repair option.


Standard work for our shoes....and something I have done for my customers from Baltimore to Wash DC to here in Richmond over the last 20+ years......


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## cvac (Aug 6, 2006)

When one runs, more pressure is put on the toes than normal walking. Perhaps running that short distance on sidewalks in poor shape the other day is what wore the toes down, not the walking I did that day, which was mostly indoors.

I'll try to avoid running in dress shoes from now on, but if anyone has any more thought on metal toe taps, I'd like to hear them.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Heels wear down because of more friction at the point where the end of the shoe hits the pavement.

Same thing happens at the toe. I fail to see how length of the shoe will prevent extra friction at the front.

Unless you have those soles that turn up at the front of course.


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## Buffalo (Nov 19, 2003)

My understanding is that Allen Edmonds will not place toe taps in their recrafting process as they consider it inappropriate. They feel it is unnecessary and is a trauma to their art. I happen to agree, but that is neither here nor there.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

My shoes do fit me -- I _know_ how to fit shoes -- and my toes always wear down at the same rate as my heels. I don't know if it's the way I walk or what, but it's always the case. Not everybody has the same experiences, rider. Besides, does it bother you?


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

Teacher said:


> My shoes do fit me -- I _know_ how to fit shoes -- and my toes always wear down at the same rate as my heels. I don't know if it's the way I walk or what, but it's always the case. Not everybody has the same experiences, rider. Besides, does it bother you?


Yes, of course.....if they didn't, in some cases, I wouldn't have posted that a better alternative, IMO, is to have the leather at the toe replaced - and posted that this is what my clients have always had done thru me.

My objection was the use of the word 'always', which is not correct. Not only on my own shoes, but a quick look over the shoes on my refinishing bench at this moment (2 pr Vass, 1 pr Lobb, 1 pr G&G, 1 pr A/E, 1 pr EG, 3 pr Martegani, 1 pr Moreschi) show no undue wear on the toes - and in the case of the Vass client virtually no wear period on his toes - so most people don't, in fact, wear out the toes more quickly than any other part of the sole. The other point I am attempting to make is that having new toplifts and toe pieces is a typical repair, and makes the need for these additions useless. I have no idea how things work in North Dakota shoe repair, but in Washington DC (Fortuna's before they changed), Baltimore (Hess/Dan bros.) and Richmond (Jerry's), 'tips & lifts' is/was regular work.

Does it bother me? No, of course not....no more than seeing Hummers on the highway. Does it bother you that I asked?


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

rider said:


> Does it bother you that I asked?


No, but it does seem that you're arguing against people getting toe taps, and I was just wondering why that would be. To me, it doesn't seem there's any real difference between having taps installed (which, by the way, I don't bother doing) and having the tips redone before a resoling: they're both "operations," if you will, that probably cost about the same and accomplish the same thing.


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## SpookyTurtle (Nov 4, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> A Topy I get because it has uniform thickness, but taps on nice shoes make no sense to me. Isn't the whole point to have the shoe wear to your walking pattern so it becomes as comfortable as possible? This reminds me of people who rotate the tires on expensive performance cars because it makes the tires last longer, nevermind the fact that you want the tires to wear into their pattern to get the best handling out of the car you spent $80k on, and you're sacrificing that for the few hundred bucks spent on tires.


This applies to racing tires which are scrubbed in on each wheel for a particular track. On the street, the roads are not uniform and you don't repeat the same turns over and over again as you do on a race track. Hence rotatiting your tires keeps the wear pattern more uniform.


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## cvac (Aug 6, 2006)

Rider,

How would you go about replacing the toe leather of the sole? Wouldn't you have to cut off the old toe leather of the sole, creating a "seam" on the sole leather when you put the new piece of leather on? I'm guessing that doesn't pose any problems or you wouldn't do it this way...are there any disadvantages to this method vs. just having the entire sole replaced?


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

SpookyTurtle said:


> This applies to racing tires which are scrubbed in on each wheel for a particular track. On the street, the roads are not uniform and you don't repeat the same turns over and over again as you do on a race track. Hence rotatiting your tires keeps the wear pattern more uniform.


There's no sense arguing about it. If you don't believe me, ask BMW and Porsche instead (Mercedes also used to promote driving in a car rather than living in it, and they too used to say the same thing I said, but IIRC they don't anymore). This applies not just to racing tires, but to any car that actually had engineers (or the end user) pay attention to camber and toe-in settings.


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

cvac said:


> Rider,
> 
> How would you go about replacing the toe leather of the sole? Wouldn't you have to cut off the old toe leather of the sole, creating a "seam" on the sole leather when you put the new piece of leather on? I'm guessing that doesn't pose any problems or you wouldn't do it this way...are there any disadvantages to this method vs. just having the entire sole replaced?


No big deal...it's just an angled cut at the toe and then a cemented piece of sole bend. It's a solution for, as discussed, if you have the toe area wear out ahead of the need for a full sole/heel job. Often times I have a slightly larger piece placed on the toe than the sole weight itself. If the ball thickness is still good, I suggest this before jumping to a full job.....and I don't suggest (won't offer myself) half sole jobs - creates a seam at a point of tension/preassure.


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## SpookyTurtle (Nov 4, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> There's no sense arguing about it. If you don't believe me, ask BMW and Porsche instead (Mercedes also used to promote driving in a car rather than living in it, and they too used to say the same thing I said, but IIRC they don't anymore). This applies not just to racing tires, but to any car that actually had engineers (or the end user) pay attention to camber and toe-in settings.


Why would I doubt you, you know everything about everything.:icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:

Of course I did too when I was your age, but alas, that was so long ago:icon_pale:


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## Snorkel (Nov 16, 2007)

I used to have toe taps (and heels) on my shoes but got tired of sounding like a tap dancer all the time.


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## NukeMeSlowly (Jul 28, 2005)

rider said:


> If the toes wear out that fast, then chances are your shoes don't fit well


What is this a symptom of specifically? Shoes too long or too short? I have consistently had this issue and use nylon toe taps accordingly. I would be interested in finding out if I am wearing the wrong size.


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## Olyckan (Apr 24, 2005)

I use toe taps and I find them great. As I wear down the toes several times faster than the rest of the sole, it's a no brainer for me. I don't get any extra noise at all (as I 'roll' up on the toe when I walk) and I haven't noticed any extra slipping.


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## cvac (Aug 6, 2006)

For anyone curious about this I emailed AE and this is the answer I got:

*Whether we can recraft the shoes or not would depend on whether the insoles are damaged. We would not be able to reattach the taps or install new steel taps after recrafting. We would recommend you send them in for us to look at.*


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## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

rider, I assume how the heels and toes wear would mostly depend on how the wearer walks. Is this inaccurate? Most people walk differently and I also assume (although I am not a shoe professional as you are) that they do buy the correct size. How would one know what size to buy or if his shoe is too 'short' as you say (not trying to be argumentative, but not sure I follow what you say). 

Also, is your objection specifically to toe taps and that heal taps are fine? What is the difference?

Cordovan


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Didn't our forum podiatrist say the same thing about most people buy their shoes too short? What you want is the ball of your foot to be in the widest part of the shoe or to have 1 thumbnail width between the end of your foot and the end of the shoe, whichever is longer, IIRC.


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## cobblestone (Feb 13, 2007)

*premature wear spots*

Over-pronation, or flat feet, is a common biomechanical problem that occurs in the walking process when a person's arch collapses upon weight bearing. This motion can cause extreme stress or inflammation on the plantar fascia, potentially causing severe discomfort and leading to other foot problems. This can cause premature wear on your shoes in different areas.

Over-pronation is very prominent in people who have flexible, flat feet. The framework of the foot begins to collapse, causing the foot to flatten and adding stress to other parts of the foot. As a result, over-pronation, often leads to Plantar Fasciitis, Heel Spurs, Metatarsalgia, Post-tib Tendonitis and/or Bunions.
There are many causes of flat feet. Obesity, pregnancy or repetitive pounding on a hard surface can weaken the arch leading to over-pronation. Often people with flat feet do not experience discomfort immediately, and some never suffer from any discomfort at all. However, when symptoms develop and become painful, walking . When this occurs, it can cause one to drag their toes or wear out soles faster on the front toe area or medial side of the sole. For supinators, the wear points are on the lateral side of the shoe.

We see a lot of different wear spots on soles. It's not always a hole in the middle. Toe plates, metal or poly urethane will help even out the wear. Toe tips, are just like a half sole but only at the toe area.

I hope this helps.


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## reubencahn (Mar 28, 2006)

cobblestone said:


> Over-pronation, or flat feet, is a common biomechanical problem that occurs in the walking process when a person's arch collapses upon weight bearing. This motion can cause extreme stress or inflammation on the plantar fascia, potentially causing severe discomfort and leading to other foot problems. This can cause premature wear on your shoes in different areas.
> 
> Over-pronation is very prominent in people who have flexible, flat feet. The framework of the foot begins to collapse, causing the foot to flatten and adding stress to other parts of the foot. As a result, over-pronation, often leads to Plantar Fasciitis, Heel Spurs, Metatarsalgia, Post-tib Tendonitis and/or Bunions.
> There are many causes of flat feet. Obesity, pregnancy or repetitive pounding on a hard surface can weaken the arch leading to over-pronation. Often people with flat feet do not experience discomfort immediately, and some never suffer from any discomfort at all. However, when symptoms develop and become painful, walking . When this occurs, it can cause one to drag their toes or wear out soles faster on the front toe area or medial side of the sole. For supinators, the wear points are on the lateral side of the shoe.
> ...


Overpronation may be common among those with flat feet but it is hardly limited to them. I have very high arches which, as is common, are not particularly flexible. Nevertheless, I am a severe overpronator.


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