# Slim Fit Dress Shirt Bicep Measurement



## Spring5999 (May 27, 2010)

Hi,

I'm ordering an MTM shirt with a very slim fit (Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit style with a slimmer waist), but am unsure of the bicep measurement. Is there a specific standard for this? Add 1.5", 2", perhaps?

My bicep is 11".

Thanks.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Bicep is not a measurement used by shirtmakers. If they are asking for it, it's just propaganda.


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## Spring5999 (May 27, 2010)

Well, Mr. Kabbaz, maybe I should stop by on my way to Bridge and purchase one from you?

Seriously, any comments that are constructive are welcome. By the way, I have several custom shirts from a tailor in NYC and the bicep measurement was taken. 

How could this possibly be propaganda? I doubt they are trying to increase sales by including an erroneous measurement.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

The size of the top portion of the sleeve is a derived size based upon armhole, elbow, and cuff diameter. It cannot be adjusted based upon the bicep measurement unless you prefer the line of the fabric design to be ruined. If you prefer not to be educated that is your choice, but please keep your snarky comments to yourself.


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

"The size of the top portion of the sleeve is a derived size..."

Ah, but that is valuable information for the rest of us! Thanks


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Alex, what would happen if a customer came to you with a disproportionately large bicep? Would you need to size up those other 3 dimensions in order to create a good-line sleeve that would fit the bicep?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

CuffDaddy said:


> Alex, what would happen if a customer came to you with a disproportionately large bicep? Would you need to size up those other 3 dimensions in order to create a good-line sleeve that would fit the bicep?


Look at the "right sleeve" diagram. At the top, the cap expands outward to become large enough to fit in the armhole using a curved outward taper. From there to the end of the sleeve, the goal is to get the line as straight as possible (or a series of straight lines) so that a hodgepodge of stripes appearing and disappearing at the underarm seam does not occur.

In the case of a large bicep, the best course is to use the elbow as a rotation point and from there expand the line outward toward the armhole as shown by the blue line in the "left sleeve" diagram. Of course, a gentle curve would be used to join the two blue lines together so that there was not an abrupt change. Both sides of the "left sleeve" mirror each other; I expediently drew the blue line on only one side.

The four focal points of a sleeve are:
Cap: Must be properly sized to fit the armhole
Elbow: Must be properly sized to allow for bending the arm
Cuff end: Must be appropriately sized so as not to have too much fabric in excess over the size of the cuff.
Length: Must be sized to force the cuff to hang at the correct placement which will allow 1/2"***** of sleeve to show outside the jacket sleeve

**** *Personal preference is the arbiter of the amount of sleeve showing. 1/2" is a generally accepted maxim.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Beyond informative, as always. I wish I had the spatial intelligence to fully comprehend it!


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

CuffDaddy said:


> Beyond informative, as always. I wish I had the spatial intelligence to fully comprehend it!


Try to picture the sleeve pattern part rolled up into a kid's ice cream cone shape ... and the kid just bit off the bottom of the cone.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Bicep is not a measurement used by shirtmakers.


I agree with this. I have never seen either a coat or shirt draft that incorporated the bicep measurement published from the last 200 years.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Spring5999 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm ordering an MTM shirt with a very slim fit (Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit style with a slimmer waist), but am unsure of the bicep measurement. Is there a specific standard for this? Add 1.5", 2", perhaps?
> 
> ...


What is your neck size?


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## Spring5999 (May 27, 2010)

It's 14.25"


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Spring5999 said:


> It's 14.25"


My hunch is you won't have a problem with sleeves being too small.

Also, keep in mind that BB's unconditional guarantee of satisfaction applies to their MTM products.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Sator said:


> I agree with this. I have never seen either a coat or shirt draft that incorporated the bicep measurement published from the last 200 years.


 :idea: Ah-ha! That explains it. The shirtmaker must be more than 200 years old. Thanks for clearing up the mystery, Sator.


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

Modern Tailor which has been reviewed here by Andy

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...est-Modern-Tailor-shirt&p=1102221#post1102221

asks for a bicep measurement.

*How* they use it or *IF* they use it is open to question.

I much prefer Mr. Kabbaz' explanation on how a sleeve is constructed.

From the Modern Tailor site...............

https://www.moderntailor.com/common/measure_guide.pdf


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

EP said:


> Modern Tailor asks for a bicep measurement.


Oh, well. Sator, I guess our fibbing has been exposed. And now everyone's going to know what I've been doing wrong all these years. Woe is me. :icon_smile_wink:

EP: To be serious for a moment, I did not say that nobody takes a bicep measurement. I simply stated that a bicep measurement is not a measurement used in making the shirt pattern. Some people also take an overarm measurement for shirts. That isn't used in shirt pattern making either. In the interest of civility I'll just leave it there.


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## Spring5999 (May 27, 2010)

Actually, that is exactly what you said - "Bicep is not a measurement used by shirtmakers. If they are asking for it, it's just progaganda". But, in the interest of civility, I'll just leave it there.

Thanks for the help, PJC.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Mod's hat _*off.*_

Spring:

EP said: MT _*asks for*_ a bicep measurement.

I said: Bicep is _*not *_a measurement _*used by shirtmakers*_.

I know you're new here. Perhaps you don't realize that Sator and I are probably the two most knowledgeable members of AAAC when it comes to answering questions such as this. If you want to continue this argument go right ahead. At some point it will be just you and your bottle of Vaseline.

Any mod in the mood can feel free to edit this. My hat is off.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> If you want to continue this argument go right ahead. At some point it will be just you and your bottle of Vaseline.


Or you'll be sent to talk bicep as compared to sleeve measurements with this man, who will not be sympathetic:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

KLU! (Right?)


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

CuffDaddy said:


> KLU! (Right?)


That's Big Klu to you, son.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Showing your age, gents? :devil:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I, for one, am merely showing that a decent chunk of my youth was mis-spent on a fascination with baseball history. Klu was long retired by the time I was born, and dead by the time I started high school.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

CuffDaddy said:


> I, for one, am merely showing that a decent chunk of my youth was mis-spent on a fascination with baseball history. Klu was long retired by the time I was born, and dead by the time I started high school.


Well, Kabbaz, when you find yerself in a hole ... put down the shovel.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Showing your age, gents? :devil:


Big Klu was before my time; I learned about him from this wonderful and hilarious book, which I used to read (and laugh out loud over) in college when I should have been studying:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Bas...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275676509&sr=1-3


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Big Klu was before my time; I learned about him from this wonderful and hilarious book, which I used to read (and laugh out loud over) in college when I should have been studying:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/American-Bas...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275676509&sr=1-3


Backing awaaayyy from the shovel ...


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

It doesn't matter even if the client is a steroid taking body builder. The biceps measure would be pretty useless, as this part of the draft is determined by the armscye. It would be a strange figure if the biceps were larger than the shoulders.


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## Mr. Moo (Jan 27, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Mod's hat _*off.*_
> 
> Spring:
> 
> ...


How absolutely unbecoming of a moderator, business owner, and famous shirt-maker. You have lost a customer, good sir.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Mr. Moo said:


> How absolutely unbecoming of a moderator, business owner, and famous shirt-maker. You have lost a customer, good sir.


Mr. Moo: Since your last order was never, I must take your words with a grain of salt.

That said, you are absolutely correct that my conduct was unbecoming. Sometimes even moderators, business owners, and shirt makers lose their composure in the face of absolute pigheadedness. Especially when coupled with downright rudeness. No apology will be forthcoming in this case.


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## Mr. Moo (Jan 27, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Mr. Moo: Since your last order was never, I must take your words with a grain of salt.
> 
> That said, you are absolutely correct that my conduct was unbecoming. Sometimes even moderators, business owners, and shirt makers lose their composure in the face of absolute pigheadedness. Especially when coupled with downright rudeness. No apology will be forthcoming in this case.


I harrumph in your general direction.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Mr. Moo said:


> I harrumph in your general direction.


I thank you for your harrumph and raise you one pishtaw.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Yet another shirtmaker who doesn't know his arse from his k y jelly.

https://www.embassyfashion.com/howtomeasure.asp


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

These biceps measuring vaseline johnnies even have a video!


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

This is getting ridiculous. How do these biceps- measuring, propagandising, groove-greasers stay in business?

https://www.shirtsbyweisters.co.uk/help/how-to-measure-yourself/bicep.html


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Ah, the Internet. The OP asks a perfectly sensible question, a world-class expert answers it very clearly, with a diagram--and yet the thread also manages to be a pointless flame war.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Kurt N said:


> Ah, the Internet. The OP asks a perfectly sensible question, a world-class expert answers it very clearly, with a diagram--and yet the thread also manages to be a pointless flame war.


I thought the flame war actually got quite pointed. :icon_smile_wink:

And so, to all but the OP and the Sycophantic Cow, my apologies for the flame.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Kurt N said:


> Ah, the Internet. The OP asks a perfectly sensible question, a world-class expert answers it very clearly, with a diagram--and yet the thread also manages to be a pointless flame war.


I enjoy Kabbaz's posts as much as anybody, but after reading the thread I think this is the response he wanted with his initial post.


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## ykurtz (Mar 7, 2007)

Just a guess here but some online shirtmakers might ask for the bicep measurement as a way of backing into an appropriate armhole size, i.e. the armhole has to AT LEAST be as large as the bicep to accommodate the wearer.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

ykurtz said:


> Just a guess here but some online shirtmakers might ask for the bicep measurement as a way of backing into an appropriate armhole size, i.e. the armhole has to AT LEAST be as large as the bicep to accommodate the wearer.


A brave man!

Seriously, though ( and I say this with some trepidation with one eye on the tub of axle grease in the shed - which I honestly assure you, sir, is used exclusively for the lubrication of axles ) why do so many shirt makers ask for a biceps measurement when it is clearly unnecessary as evidenced by the testimony of such renowned sartorial experts?


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> A brave man!
> 
> Seriously, though ( and I say this with some trepidation with one eye on the tub of axle grease in the shed - which I honestly assure you, sir, is used exclusively for the lubrication of axles ) why do so many shirt makers ask for a biceps measurement when it is clearly unnecessary as evidenced by the testimony of such renowned sartorial experts?


Yet another misguided costumier. https://www.bestdressshirts.com/body-method.html


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## ykurtz (Mar 7, 2007)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> A brave man!
> 
> Seriously, though ( and I say this with some trepidation with one eye on the tub of axle grease in the shed - which I honestly assure you, sir, is used exclusively for the lubrication of axles ) why do so many shirt makers ask for a biceps measurement when it is clearly unnecessary as evidenced by the testimony of such renowned sartorial experts?


Online shirtmakers probably don't make custom shirts based on individual patterns. My guess is they have an MTM operation with relatively fixed patterns with some leeway provided. They probably have (for example) 3 armhole sizes and based on the bicep measurement, pick the one that is at least as large, but not too large. I would be curious to see if a professional body builder with 22 inch biceps can be supported by an online shirtmaker.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Even this guy has got it all wrong!

https://www.renaissancetailor.com/demos_shirt.htm


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

This fellow look as if he might know his onions. Worth an e mail?


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## Sufferable Fob (Aug 26, 2009)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> Even this guy has got it all wrong!
> 
> https://www.renaissancetailor.com/demos_shirt.htm


I know you're probably just being funny, but...

This is _very different_ from modern shirt-making. *Every piece is a quadrilateral*, unless it is one cut into a triangle, in some cases. But the point is - it's so very simplistic and _unshaped_ that comparing it to modern shirt-making, while perhaps amusing, is rather fruitless when it comes to determining the use of a certain measure.

The method of construction for a "pre-modern" shirt is incredibly simple and requires no more skill in drafting than being able to mark with a ruler and rip fabric along the grain.

The biceps measure is useful when it comes to determining the width to pleat the sleeve into (this would be too tight on its own, however, without the gussets), or the amount of fabric to obtain a certain proportion of fullness in relation to the arm.

The arm is set into the shirt in a much different place than in modern shirts - since the body is _only a square_, with _no shaping to wrap under the arm_, there is no actual "armscye" (although this did exist in more sophisticated garments at the time - the shirt is simply simple) as we know it today, and it is necessary to determine a width for the pleat - and especially with tighter fit women's shirts, the biceps are a good measure to use, and armpit gussets create the "shaping" that allows the shirt to fit more smoothly to the body and move more comfortably.

Anyone think "classic" cut shirts are roomy ? My Regency shirt is a full 90" of fabric in the body - and each sleeve was, I think about a 25" square of fabric, almost.

*Completely different beast.* This has more in common with the geometric construction of the _kimono_ than the shirt we wear today.

When making *modern* men's shirts, and modern shaped sleeves (set into a modern shaped body / armscye) in general, I have never needed a biceps measure.

Cap height combined with armscye measure will determine the width of the sleeve.

Read all about it here : , hoorah !

If one were to, theoretically, use the biceps measure to force set the width of the sleeve piece, the _cap height_ would need to be grossly stretched - which would result in a pretty poor and unwearable fit (it would, basically, only fit when the arms were straight down at the sides), from what I can tell.

Another idea is that they are basically making a very, very tight small-cap sleeve with basically merged "gussets" to fit it into the armscye and allow movement, instead of changing cap height. I am not sure the viability of this idea, though.

Just blithering, is all.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Sufferable Fob said:


> I know you're probably just being funny, but...
> 
> This is _very different_ from modern shirt-making. *Every piece is a quadrilateral*, unless it is one cut into a triangle, in some cases. But the point is - it's so very simplistic and _unshaped_ that comparing it to modern shirt-making, while perhaps amusing, is rather fruitless when it comes to determining the use of a certain measure.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this informative and muddle-clearing post.

So is it the case then that that the onlineshirtmakers ask for a biceps measurement because they are giving more perceived value for money, or do they actually need the measurement because they are adapting stock patterns?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

PedanticTurkey said:


> I enjoy Kabbaz's posts as much as anybody, but after reading the thread I think this is the response he wanted with his initial post.


Given that the internet is today's version of the "Wild West", wanting and getting are two wildly different ends of the spectrum. I enjoy assisting members with their clothing questions. Sometimes, it's a fine line between helping and calling out another maker. In this case, I used the word "propaganda".

Why? One of the first questions many callers and most press interviewers ask is: "How many measurements do you take?" They ask it as if the number of measurements is a of direct measure of the quality of the finished shirt. Personally, I take 37 measurements on men and 41 on women. Does that make me better? Maybe ... or perhaps I am just insecure in my pattern making. BTW ... bicep isn't one of the 37.

What did I mean by "calling out another maker"? What I clearly stated was that the bicep measure is not used in shirt pattern making. (Sufferable Fob - I took for granted we were talking about modern shirtmaking and not the century-old 5 rectangles method.)

However, bicep measure does have a use into which I did not delve. In the trade it is usually referred to as a "guard measure". It is used when a factory shirtmaker - one who is not taking the measurements himself - receives measures from either a self-measuring customer or a usually poorly-trained department store salesperson. Large-volume shirt factory standards have norms. For (a fictional) example, a shirt with a 38" chest should be accompanied by a bicep measure of somewhere between 10" and 12". If they receive a bicep measure of 21" for that shirt they know they are dealing with one of two cases: Either the measure-taker made an error or the customer is far outside the bounds of what their patterns can handle. Thus, the shirtmaker is *guarded* against making a shirt which will not fit and can call for new measuring.

Rather than denigrating either customer or shirtmaker, I elected to call this propaganda rather than stating its true use. Why? It is widely accepted that for the purpose of customer or press relations many m-t-m makers will take more measurements than they actually use. It just sounds better. On the other hand, I could simply have said, as I have here, that most self-measuring customers and most store clerks usually take very poor measurements. Which, given that this is the internet, will soon tag me with having stated that Brooks Brothers store clerks don't know how to measure. And if past experience is any indication, that would have generated a flame war of an entirely different magnitude.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> However, bicep measure does have a use into which I did not delve. In the trade it is usually referred to as a "guard measure". It is used when a factory shirtmaker - one who is not taking the measurements himself - receives measures from either a self-measuring customer or a usually poorly-trained department store salesperson. Large-volume shirt factory standards have norms.


You beat me to it, Alex. I was just about to write that a few minutes ago only to discover that you had already said it.

The other use it may have with is that they may enlarge the armscye on someone with beefy biceps. Normally, this be quite unnecessary as there are other measures of the scye that would guide you. However, most of these measures would be impractical to get clients to measures themselves, whereas the biceps measure is more idiot proof. So the biceps measure can be used as an ersatz measure to try to make a guess at these other dimensions of the armscye.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Sator said:


> You beat me to it, Alex. I was just about to write that a few minutes ago only to discover that you had already said it.
> 
> The other use it may have with is that they may enlarge the armscye on someone with beefy biceps. Normally, this be quite unnecessary as there are other measures of the scye that would guide you. However, most of these measures would be impractical to get clients to measures themselves, whereas the biceps measure is more idiot proof. So the biceps measure can be used as an ersatz measure to try to make a guess at these other dimensions of the armscye.


Please get real. Be honest and don't deceive yourself. If this is what you had meant to say why on earth didn't you both say it in the first place? Roflmao Alex and Sator:biggrin: On-line shirtmakers 10. AAC experts 0 I'm afraid.:tongue2:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> Please get real. Be honest and don't deceive yourself. If this is what you had meant to say why on earth didn't you both say it in the first place? Roflmao Alex and Sator:biggrin: On-line shirtmakers 10. AAC experts 0 I'm afraid.:tongue2:


Why? The ethos of the bespoke makers on this Forum has long been to provide useful information without impugning the methods of other makers. The useful information here is that the measurement will not be used to make the pattern. The fact that most store clerks don't measure well was not germane until you and others insisted on pushing it there with disrespectful and rude posts such as the one I am quoting.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Why? The ethos of the bespoke makers on this Forum has long been to provide useful information without impugning the methods of other makers. The useful information here is that the measurement will not be used to make the pattern. The fact that most store clerks don't measure well was not germane until you and others insisted on pushing it there with disrespectful and rude posts such as the one I am quoting.


What planet are you really living on, Alex? The OP asks a question about measuring his biceps. You then tell him that this is an unnecessary measurement and that this is just 'propaganda' (whatever that is supposed to mean) on the part of the shirt maker. Well if this isn't impugning the methods of other makers perhaps you can enlighten us all as to what it is, particularly in the light of the later comments you made about other allegedly 'unnecessar'y measurements. You finally 'remember' that the biceps measurement is known, in the trade, as a guard against shop assistants who can't measure. Well obviously this was germane to the OPs question. Relevancy is not something that comes into being if one pushes an issue. Things either are germane or they aren't. At least that's how it works on this planet.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Sator said:


> You beat me to it, Alex. I was just about to write that a few minutes ago only to discover that you had already said it.
> 
> The other use it may have with is that they may enlarge the armscye on someone with beefy biceps. Normally, this be quite unnecessary as there are other measures of the scye that would guide you. However, most of these measures would be impractical to get clients to measures themselves, whereas the biceps measure is more idiot proof. So the biceps measure can be used as an ersatz measure to try to make a guess at these other dimensions of the armscye.





Sator said:


> It [ the biceps measurement ]doesn't matter *even if the client is a steroid taking body builder*. The biceps measure would be pretty useless, as this part of the draft is determined by the armscye. It would be a strange figure if the biceps were larger than the shoulders.


I really wish you'd make your mind up, Sator.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> I really wish you'd make your mind up, Sator.


Stanley: I find your unreasonable extension of this point of argument to be decidedly boorish. You disagree with a point made and confirmed by two well respected members of these communities and you have every right to harbor and voice a dissenting opinion. You attempt to prove your point by posting references to online vendors who request that the disputed measurement be included in orders for shirts from said vendors and that is also OK. However, neither you or the vendors to which you refer bother to explain why you apparently feel the disputed measurement is integral to successfully ordering a properly fitted shirt. I can certainly understand the intended difference in Sator's two postings (you quote), as I believe most others can as well! If you have anything substantive to add to the discussion, do so. Otherwise, move on. Frivolous/spurious attacks on other forum members, purely for the sake of argument will not be tolerated.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Stanley: I find your unreasonable extension of this point of argument to be decidedly boorish.


Could I ask whether or you ask this with your moderator's hat on. Or have you removed it as Alex did prior to his haranguing the new OP who merely wanted to know about biceps measurements?



eagle2250 said:


> You disagree with a point made and confirmed by two well respected members of these communities and you have every right to harbor and voice a dissenting opinion. You attempt to prove your point by posting references to online vendors who request that the disputed measurement be included in orders for shirts from said vendors and that is also OK.


No. I believed the point made and then,acting, on seeming proof provided by the two biggest experts on AAAC as to the pointlessness of biceps measuring I proceeded to unfairly pillory honestv tradesmen. For this I am truly apologetic.


eagle2250 said:


> However, neither you or the vendors to which you refer bother to explain why you apparently feel the disputed measurement is integral to successfully ordering a properly fitted shirt.


Both Alex and Sator now recall that this is a valid measurement referred to ' in the trade' as a guard measure.



eagle2250 said:


> I can certainly understand the intended difference in Sator's two postings (you quote), as I believe most others can as well!


Please enlighten me and many others who cannot understand.



eagle2250 said:


> If you have anything substantive to add to the discussion, do so. Otherwise, move on. Frivolous/spurious attacks on other forum members, purely for the sake of argument will not be tolerated.


I trust that my explantions above have assured you that my contributions are intended to be anything but frivolous.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

The OP insulted Alex. His reaction wasn't from him merely wanting to know about the measurement.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Jovan said:


> The OP insulted Alex. His reaction wasn't from him merely wanting to know about the measurement.


OP


> Actually, that is exactly what you said - "Bicep is not a measurement used by shirtmakers. If they are asking for it, it's just progaganda". But, in the interest of civility, I'll just leave it there.


 Alex


> I know you're new here. Perhaps you don't realize that Sator and I are probably the two most knowledgeable members of AAAC when it comes to answering questions such as this. If you want to continue this argument go right ahead. At some point it will be just you and your bottle of Vaseline.


How on earth can you say that it was the OP who insulted Alex! Unreal City.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

How could you miss THIS, straight from the first page?


Spring5999 said:


> *Well, Mr. Kabbaz, maybe I should stop by on my way to Bridge and purchase one from you?*
> 
> Seriously, any comments that are constructive are welcome. By the way, I have several custom shirts from a tailor in NYC and the bicep measurement was taken.
> 
> How could this possibly be propaganda? I doubt they are trying to increase sales by including an erroneous measurement.


When he said, "But, in the interest of civility, I'll just leave it there," he was mocking Alex's earlier comment of:


Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Oh, well. Sator, I guess our fibbing has been exposed. And now everyone's going to know what I've been doing wrong all these years. Woe is me. :icon_smile_wink:
> 
> EP: To be serious for a moment, I did not say that nobody takes a bicep measurement. I simply stated that a bicep measurement is not a measurement used in making the shirt pattern. Some people also take an overarm measurement for shirts. That isn't used in shirt pattern making either. *In the interest of civility I'll just leave it there.*


I'm just calling it as I see it.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

If one shirtmaker can ridicule another shirt maker's measurements as 'propaganda' I call the OP's initial comment healthy skepticism rahter than an insult. The quip about the vaseline on the other hand ......?

But anyway all this was totally unnecessary. Why didn't Alex and Sator straight away point out that this biceps measurement was known (in the trade) as a guard? Had they done that the OP would have been given genuinely useful information, would not have been questioned as to his adventures in the world of petroleum jelly, and a host of shirtmakers including advertisers on this site would not have been unfairly impugned.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> Why didn't Alex and Sator straight away point out that this biceps measurement was known (in the trade) as a guard?


Because (in the trade) anyone who requires superfluous measurements to guard themselves against errors is regarded as a total incompetent.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Because (in the trade) anyone who requires superfluous measurements to guard themselves against errors is regarded as a total incompetent.


I see. So you are now suggesting that the myriad of online shirtiers who do indeed ask for this meaurement are incompetent. By the way, what happened to the beefy biceps rationale? Perhaps you'd like the other expert to field that one.


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## Sufferable Fob (Aug 26, 2009)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> Thank you for this informative and muddle-clearing post.
> 
> So is it the case then that that the onlineshirtmakers ask for a biceps measurement because they are giving more perceived value for money, or do they actually need the measurement because they are adapting stock patterns?


I'm not sure how these makers work.

I know that some less-reputable companies will take your measurements and then simply give you a ready-made stock size based on them - instead of actually making or at least altering a pattern for you. This is a dreadfully common thing out of lower-end Asian companies - they advertise "custom", but just send you something that was ready-made.

Otherwise, I really don't know why they would _need_ the measurement. If they are making some kind of ridiculously tight, non-traditional, sleeves there should be evidence of this on the web-site.



Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Sufferable Fob - I took for granted we were talking about modern shirtmaking and not the century-old 5 rectangles method.


O, certainly - I was just stepping in to clear _their_ reputation and clarify the differences in basic drafting and how a shaped sleeve-cap and armscye changes the basic way of looking at pattern-making.

I think, looking at the outline of a pattern, people may not understand immediately which parts depend on the measure of other parts and so-on - thereby not understanding why a shirt-maker simply couldn't make the "sleeve" bit arbitrarily narrower without negative consequence.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> So you are now suggesting that the myriad of online shirtiers who do indeed ask for this meaurement are incompetent.


It was not a suggestion.



Stanley Ketchell said:


> By the way, what happened to the beefy biceps rationale? Perhaps you'd like the other expert to field that one.


I don't recall ever using the term beefy biceps.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Sufferable Fob said:


> I'm not sure how these makers[ who ask for a biceps measurement] work.


It would help if a representative of one of these makers could comment. I wonder if any read these pages?


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> ...
> 
> I don't recall ever using the term beefy bieps.


That must have been the other expert then.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> It was not a suggestion.


Which word do you prefer: assertion, averment,asseveration?


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

This thread continues to surprise. On the one hand it's a spit-in-your-eye slapfest, but on the other hand, Mr Ketchell's mulishness succeeded in flushing out some genuinely interesting information about industry norms and practices. Originally we learned that (1) the biceps measurement is not normally used but could be used to adjust the pattern in exceptional cases. Now we have also learned that (2) the biceps measurement could be used as a check or backup if the armhole measurement as given seems "off." And we learn that (3) more measurements create a perception, if not a reality, of higher quality. While I understand how item (3) could reflect badly on the shirtmaker, I don't understand why Mr Kabbaz thinks item (2) does. To me it seems like a high-volume shirtmaker who seeks to guard against mistakes by customers or middlemen is just being smart.

EDIT: Please replace "we learn/learned/have learned" with "I learn...etc.," since I may be one of only a few who didn't already know.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Kurt N said:


> This thread continues to surprise. On the one hand it's a spit-in-your-eye slapfest, but on the other hand, Mr Ketchell's mulishness succeeded in flushing out some genuinely interesting information about industry norms and practices. Originally we learned that (1) the biceps measurement is not normally used but could be used to adjust the pattern in exceptional cases. Now we have also learned that (2) the biceps measurement could be used as a check or backup if the armhole measurement as given seems "off." And we learn that (3) more measurements create a perception, if not a reality, of higher quality. While I understand how item (3) could reflect badly on the shirtmaker, I don't understand why Mr Kabbaz thinks item (2) does. To me it seems like a high-volume shirtmaker who seeks to guard against mistakes by customers or middlemen is just being smart.
> 
> EDIT: Please replace "we learn/learned/have learned" with "I learn...etc.," since I may be one of only a few who didn't already know.


I'll forgive the muilishness this time because this is a very sensible post IMVHO in a thread awash with contradiction, confusion and I suspect misgivings.


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## TEL (Nov 13, 2009)

Wow...


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> Could I ask whether or you ask this with your moderator's hat on. Or have you removed it as Alex did prior to his haranguing the new OP who merely wanted to know about biceps measurements?
> 
> No. I believed the point made and then,acting, on seeming proof provided by the two biggest experts on AAAC as to the pointlessness of biceps measuring I proceeded to unfairly pillory honestv tradesmen. For this I am truly apologetic.
> 
> ...


Answering your questions in the order they were posed:

!. My moderators hat was and remains on. As Jovan's response to your assertion points out, your criticisms against one members response completely disregard exchanges that took place between that member and the OP.

2. Your sensitivity towards the feelings of online (or brick and mortar vendors, I assume) seems of legendary, perhaps exaggerated, proportion. Reading your second comment, provides me with a sense that I am rereading the literary classic tale of Don Quixote. Rest assured, as so often seems done in these parts, there really is no need to tilt at windmills, in this instance!

3.Responding to your next two comments in combination, neither of Sator's comments you quoted in your earlier post, award much credence/actual usefulness to the bicep measure in creating a properly fitting shirt sleeve. Rather the actual sleeve dimensions created by properly fitting the head of the sleeve to the shoulder, chest and back segments of the shirt, will naturally allow more than sufficient volume in the upper portion and throughout the shirt sleeve, as it tapers down to the wrist. (Disclaimer: This is only offered as a layman's interpretation of Alex and Sator's perspective on the usefulness of bicep measurements in crafting a shirt sleeve!) Now, in closing...

4. Well...Stanley, I've got to tell you, I am not assured of the good intent that you attribute to your post(s) and will therefore stand by what I said in my previous conclusions. Arguing for arguments sake, while you may find it entertaining, is pointless. It is time to move on to other issues in this conversation.

Should you wish to continue with this exchange, we will do so through PM.

Thanks for your cooperation.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Let me clarify one thing: you cannot use the biceps measure to draft your pattern. It is useless for this. No a single point on your pattern is found using the biceps measure. This much remains unchanged. 

The fact that some dubious on-line "bespoke" shirtmakers use this because many of the self reported measurements taken by clients are quite bizarre and inaccurate is no reason for respectable pattern makers to start using it. It is a second rate practice by third rate "shirt makers". Why some people are going ape because of this fact is a complete mystery to me.


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## DavidLeoThomas (Jan 18, 2010)

So attempting to boil all this down to address the purpose behind the OP's original question...

The bicep measure is only used indirectly, if at all, and therefore needn't be precise.

Does anyone have a problem with the above formulation?


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## TEL (Nov 13, 2009)

Ironically, a lot of information culled here and there in this thread was quite intriguing and informative. Industry practices, measuring and cutting technique, etc.!

It also directed me to Mr. Kabbaz's web-site where I found a lot more cool and interesting information concerning shirts!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Glad the conversation's gotten a little less heated.

Now, I can see why online MTM shirtmakers would use it. They're just that, MTM rather than true bespoke and a lot of the customers don't take the best of measurements. I don't think it's fair to call them completely incompetent though, as I'm sure they can make _decent_ shirts regardless of taking such a measurement. They're not at the same level of Mr. Kabbaz but they also don't cost quite as much. In summary, I don't think you should boycott a shirtmaker you like just because they take a "guard" measurement.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Glad the conversation's gotten a little less heated.
> 
> Now, I can see why online MTM shirtmakers would use it. They're just that, MTM rather than true bespoke and a lot of the customers don't take the best of measurements. I don't think it's fair to call them completely incompetent though, as I'm sure they can make _decent_ shirts regardless of taking such a measurement. They're not at the same level of Mr. Kabbaz but they also don't cost quite as much. In summary, I don't think you should boycott a shirtmaker you like just because they take a "guard" measurement.


A very sensible post IMVHO. Such a pity such a measured, reasoned, non-partisan argument couldn't have been used throughout and by all contributors.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Spring5999 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm ordering an MTM shirt with a very slim fit (Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit style with a slimmer waist), but am unsure of the bicep measurement. Is there a specific standard for this? Add 1.5", 2", perhaps?
> 
> ...


A point raised in Spring5999's OP, that seems yet to be addressed, is the suggestion that when taking a measurement (of the bicep or other body part), some additional amount should be added to the actual measurement(s) being submitted to the vendor. Take your measurements as accurately as possible and don't add any additional amout to the actual measurement. The vendors are asking for accurate measures...no fuggies, please!


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## upnorth (Jun 18, 2007)

I am just curious, however, if someone like Greg Valentino asks for a pattern drafted, would the bicep measurement (which is bigger than the armscye) be disregarded as well.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

upnorth said:


> I am just curious, however, if someone like Greg Valentino asks for a pattern drafted, would the bicep measurement (which is bigger than the armscye) be disregarded as well.


It would obviously not be ignored. As I have discussed in previous posts, special changes need to be made for body builders. However, your supposition regarding the armscye is incorrect. Due to the concomitant and severe enlargement of the deltoids and latissimus dorsi (referred to as "wings" in the bodybuilding field), an enlarged armscye would be used to allow for the flexing of these four muscles.


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## Mr. Moo (Jan 27, 2009)

For $1000 per shirt, I would hope Mr. Kabbaz knows what he is doing. How does one who makes $1000 shirts for a living also have an immeasurable amount of time to moderate a message board/post insane things?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

ykurtz said:


> Just a guess here but some online shirtmakers might ask for the bicep measurement as a way of backing into an appropriate armhole size, i.e. the armhole has to AT LEAST be as large as the bicep to accommodate the wearer.


I got a Kabbaz shirt just last week.

When I put it on, my massive bicep would not fit past the puny armhole.

Curses you Mr. Kabbaz, another customer lost!!


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Mr. Moo said:


> For $1000 per shirt, I would hope Mr. Kabbaz knows what he is doing. How does one who makes $1000 shirts for a living also have an immeasurable amount of time to moderate a message board/post insane things?


Who are these TROLLS?

I cant believe this thread is still going strong.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Mr. Moo said:


> For $1000 per shirt, I would hope Mr. Kabbaz knows what he is doing. How does one who makes $1000 shirts for a living also have an immeasurable amount of time to moderate a message board/post insane things?


Alex is more than capable of defending himself against such silly snipes, but I must say that any post that might discourage one of the most knowledgeable men on the planet about men's clothing from posting here and sharing his rich and hard-won expertise with us for free is a rudeness to us all. However he manages it, I hope he keeps it up.


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## Stanley Ketchell (Dec 12, 2008)

Mr. Moo said:


> For $1000 per shirt, I would hope Mr. Kabbaz knows what he is doing. How does one who makes $1000 shirts for a living also have an immeasurable amount of time to moderate a message board/post insane things?


Careful Moo. Alex may have hung his moderator's hat on his coatstand on this thread and be allowing himself a bit of fun and banter away from his cheese block, but I have it on good authority that the other mods are still diligently on patrol!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Stanley Ketchell said:


> Careful Moo. Alex may have hung his moderator's hat on his coatstand on this thread and be allowing himself a bit of fun and banter away from his cheese block, but I have it on good authority that the other mods are still diligently on patrol!


It would seem that some have to always try to push the envelope and see how often they can tease the cat, before getting caught. Stanley, you are not amusing!


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

Obtaining a bicep measurement from this guy could prove to be difficult
if not perilous.










He can however be fitted for a shirt. Note the rather large armscye.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Hector Freemantle said:


> That's what I thought, Alex. By any chance, have you ever actually made a garment for *one* of these huge bodybuilders?


No. I have actually made for _two_ huge bodybuilders. It was no problem. I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express the night before draughting the pattern.



CuffDaddy said:


> However he manages it, I hope he keeps it up.


I know this thread's a bit off the rails, but aren't you getting awfully personal?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

In response to some queries above: I assume measuring the customer in other places and seeing their build in person would be more than sufficient to make a large enough armscye.

(I'm confused as to why spellcheck considers "armscye" or even just "scye" incorrect words. "Bespoke" is perfectly okay to it. :icon_scratch


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Because (in the trade) anyone who requires superfluous measurements to guard themselves against errors is regarded as a total incompetent.


I agree with this. I would go further to say that online shirtmakers and coatmakers are to Bespoke what a Phillipino or Russian mail order bride is to Love.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Sator, not all of us can afford a fully bespoke shirt. We know what we're getting into when we order online for under $100. Most of them don't even call themselves bespoke.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

From my dunce's corner, I, too, am unable to get on board with what Sator is saying. Why deliberately go farther than Mr Kabbaz in taking a shot at merchants who, as Jovan points out, fill a significant market niche--and who in at least some cases have a reputation for doing good work for the money?

I normally learn a lot from Sator's posts, but with this thread I feel like I'm missing something. For one thing, I still don't understand how merchant A's efforts to guard against mistakes by customer X are supposed to reflect badly on merchant A.

Sator, I would have PM'd this but you don't accept PMs.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Jovan said:


> Sator, not all of us can afford a fully bespoke shirt. We know what we're getting into when we order online for under $100. Most of them don't even call themselves bespoke.


If you are pretty proportionate you can probably get away with ie it is a ready made garment plus a little tweak or two. However, we are talking about a corpulent cut - disproportion makes it whole new ball game


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Kurt N said:


> I still don't understand how merchant A's efforts to guard against mistakes by customer X are supposed to reflect badly on merchant A.


It's not about protecting you. It's about guarding the maker against a stuff up so bad it will cause them to lose money. It is not quality practice that you have always must have training wheels to guard you against falling off your bike.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Sator said:


> It's not about protecting you.


No, no, I get that. It's about protecting the merchant. But why is a merchant stupid for wanting some insurance against customer mistakes? Why would I be silly for wanting training wheels on a bike where I'm the passenger and being taken for a ride by a stranger?

Possible rejoinders:

(1) Merchants should be able to ditch their incompetent customers and do business only with the smart ones? That seems like a tall order.

(2) Merchants should be willing to lose money on mis-made shirts rather than insult or inconvenience customers? But an extra measurement isn't that big a deal to most people, and from what I understand, margins in this industry are tight as it is.

(3) A good shirtmaker should be able to spot a bad armhole measurement, and figure out the correct one, even without having obtained a guard measurement off the biceps? Okay, that's the best answer I can come up with. Maybe that's it?


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## ykurtz (Mar 7, 2007)

This thread is as close to a Venus fly trap I've ever encountered on the Web.


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## Leo Solodukha (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi spring,
Why are you concern about bicep measurements allowances? Brooks brothers will figure it out from their chart. Right?


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## Leo Solodukha (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi Alexander,

you are absolutely right about bicep measurements ignored in traditional patternmaking. We are measuring armhole drop and that measurement determined the rest (tying to be less technical). we got bicep measurement from sleeve Cap and armhole length. It is what it is. But in MTM software program this process actually reversed. Who is first chicken or eggs? In MTM we need to indicate bicep and program will calculate armhole length, armhole drop. Main problem in this business to determined correct allowance to body measurements and that what mr.Spring5999 is asking. When you indicate importance of the CAP, to bee more specific I would like to indicate that CAP shape dictated by cap height and width= bicep.
Does anyone who working with MTM system can share allowances with us for standard and slim shirts? 
thanks Leo


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## solipsism (Oct 13, 2012)

Leo Solodukha said:


> Hi spring,
> Why are you concern about bicep measurements allowances? Brooks brothers will figure it out from their chart. Right?


I would hope that Mr. Spring has found a solution for his problem in the intervening two and a half years since he asked his question.


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