# Elkhart to Bunckerville



## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Sheriff Brad Rogers, Elkhart County, Indiana:*

My trip to the Cliven Bundy ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada.
*
I arrived at the Cliven Bundy Ranch Friday, April 18, 2014 through Sunday, April 20, 2014, taking a personal vacation and not on the taxpayer dime. I was invited by Oathkeepers and the Bundy family to come out and visit. I wanted to see what was really going on in that neck of the woods. There are plenty of opinions all around. I saw first hand many of the dynamics and actually spoke with Mr. Bundy, a 58 year old rancher, on the situation. The Bundy's have a modest, almost rustic residence and buildings, nothing like the Ewing Ranch of TV fame "Dallas".

You may think this is a Nevada issue, and why should I concern myself with a rancher in Nevada who is butting heads with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM)? This does not impact Elkhart County, so why go to Nevada and get involved?


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

"[Mr Bundy] told me that he does not recognize the Federal government, but that he would submit to his local Sheriff."

As much as I like rooting for the little guy, Mr Bundy needs to refine his argument. Right now, it looks like Mr Bundy is on the wrong side of the law. Who knows, maybe the gov't is messin' with him good, but he needs to show it, not say it.

Also, isn't Elkhart (IN) the crystal meth capital of the midwest? Perhaps the good sheriff should stick to his knitting instead of playing vigilante oathkeeper on the weekend.

BTW, the oathkeepers sound like a fun bunch. I agree that the country to going to hell in a handbasket, but do the OK need to be so glum about it?

https://oathkeepers.org/oath/​


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

There's an Elkhart Nevada as well. 

I'm a Nevada native, born and raised in Las Vegas but have called Chicago home for nearly 20 years. I can tell you that this attitude is rampant out west, especially the rural areas.

I'm typically very small government but in this case, the rancher is feeding his cattle on public land and not wanting to recognize the fact that the "grass ain't free!" There's a right and a wrong way tongi about this and he and his supporters are going about this the wrong way. 

As for his supporters, if I hear another rube rant on about the federalist papers I'm throwing a brick through my television. I'll venture a guess that most of them don't even know the authors of the papers nor have they read it. 

This is a clear argument for limiting and reviewing the governments position on protected and endangered species as well as an argument for land rights and private property. But it's an argument that needs to be settled through elections and not through mob action.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

SG_67 said:


> There's an Elkhart Nevada as well.


Sheriff Brad Rogers, Elkhart County, Indiana​


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

SG_67 said:


> There's an Elkhart Nevada as well.
> 
> I'm a Nevada native, born and raised in Las Vegas but have called Chicago home for nearly 20 years. I can tell you that this attitude is rampant out west, especially the rural areas.
> 
> ...


Other than the Elkhart (NV) thing, I agree.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Speaking of going about it the wrong way. 

One of the few things Im convinced of in all this is the recklessness of the BLM. There must be lots of folks who owe the government more money and will never have a story like this to relate. Some one possibly some click within the BLM was trying to make some points and Im glad it backfired. Im curious about just what the BLM sought to gain through the power demonstration.

I would wager ,even money, that the 'rubes' are as well informed wrt the Federalist Papers as most members of congress.

I appreciate Sherrif Rogers investing his own time and money as he sees fit. Especially since you and I have been privileged to help various left leaning city councils with 
international witch hunts. I reckon the contrast is as important as it is telling.

Personally from this article I came away with a profound respect for Sherrif Rogers and the assurance that this matter goes far beyond the fact and value of Bundy's cattle operation. 

Regarding the Bundy's refusal to recognize the Federal Government; I havent seen enough information, it sounds nuts but as it seems in this whole matter, it is not so simple.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Hitch said:


> Regarding the Bundy's refusal to recognize the Federal Government; I havent seen enough information, it sounds nuts but as it seems in this whole matter, it is not so simple.


I agree there are a lot of bad actors in this play, but Mr. Bundy would garner more sympathy if he showed some evidence of governmental wrongdoing. Right now, it just looks like he's leasing land without paying rent and using the Militia and other fringe groups for cover. If the gov't is not holding up their end of the leasing agreement, then resolve it in the courts.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Hitch said:


> I appreciate Sherrif Rogers investing his own time and money as he sees fit.


I'm not sure I would want my local law enforcement official spending his free time encouraging someone to continue to break the law. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I believe it sets a bad example. What's next? The Attorney General telling criminals that he's going to selectively enforce some laws and not others? The President unilaterally determining which parts of laws to uphold and which to ignore? Thankfully, those are just hypotheticals. We would never have an AG or a POTUS who would do such things.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Sadly, we have a whole passel of "law enforcement professionals" out west who think nothing of breaking the law themselves, claiming to be "patriots." It's a disgrace.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I'm not sure I would want my local law enforcement official spending his free time encouraging someone to continue to break the law. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I believe it sets a bad example. What's next? The Attorney General telling criminals that he's going to selectively enforce some laws and not others? The President unilaterally determining which parts of laws to uphold and which to ignore? Thankfully, those are just hypotheticals. We would never have an AG or a POTUS who would do such things.


Just as Im certain neither the AG nor the POTUS would do anything that caused a local authority to believe he must decide between enforcing statutes and protecting the constitution, or keeping his DR.

_I'm not sure I would want my local law enforcement official spending his free time encouraging someone to continue to break the law._ Agreed.

I didnt see Rogers encouraging the breaking of any law.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

MaxBuck said:


> Sadly, we have a whole passel of "law enforcement professionals" out west who think nothing of breaking the law themselves, claiming to be "patriots." It's a disgrace.


I for one think it was great when many western sherrifs announced that they would not take part in any Executive Order gun grab.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Is any one else wondering what Senator Reid is doing to protect the law abiding citizens of Nevada from all those domestic terrorists he had cornered just a few days ago?


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Hitch said:


> I didnt see Rogers encouraging the breaking of any law.


What I see is a guy who packed up himself and his family to travel 1000 miles on Easter Weekend (no less) to the middle of nowhere to watch a Mexican standoff over a land dispute, where the party-in-question has been found over and over again in the courts to be in the wrong, and then who wrote an essay that elevates the party-in-question to folk hero status. I would consider that as encouragement to Mr Bundy to continue his unlawful actions.

As an American, does Mr Rogers have the right to do what he did? Absolutely. However, as the Sheriff of Elkhart County, he should have the sound judgment to do otherwise.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> What I see is a guy who packed up himself and his family to travel 1000 miles on Easter Weekend (no less) to the middle of nowhere to watch a Mexican standoff over a land dispute, where the party-in-question has been found over and over again in the courts to be in the wrong, and then who wrote an essay that elevates the party-in-question to folk hero status. I would consider that as encouragement to Mr Bundy to continue his unlawful actions.
> 
> As an American, does Mr Rogers have the right to do what he did? Absolutely. However, as the Sheriff of Elkhart County, he should have the sound judgment to do otherwise.


Mr Bundy is the gift that keeps on giving...

https://www.mediaite.com/online/nevada-rancher-cliven-bundy-goes-off-on-the-*****/


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Are we supposed to be admiring this person? Doesn't sound very creditable on either side.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Chouan said:


> Are we supposed to be admiring this person? Doesn't sound very creditable on either side.


For some reason, some conservatives here in America have elevated this guy to folk hero status. I cannot fathom why, other than it's a reflexive reaction to his being treated rudely by the BLM in a heavy-handed manner.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Interesting British Newspaper view here.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/19/cliven-bundy-nevada-blm-libertarian


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> For some reason, some conservatives here in America have elevated this guy to folk hero status. I cannot fathom why, other than it's a reflexive reaction to his being treated rudely by the BLM in a heavy-handed manner.


An armed and armoured para-military force seemed to be a bit disproportionate. On the other hand, if the law and the courts have been used and disregarded, and the person is known, apparently, for being heavily armed and for violent rhetoric, then options are limited. That the BLM has a paramilitary force with armoured vehicles etc was something of a surprise. Rather as if our Forestry Commission had a para-military wing.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Chouan said:


> Are we supposed to be admiring this person? Doesn't sound very creditable on either side.


News outlets and pundits who are turning this guy into some kind of heroic martyr are going to have egg on their face.

He's basically a rustic version of an urban tax cheat or otherwise any number of people, celebrities included, who every year get in trouble for trying to hide money in complex tax shelters based on questionable advice.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Chouan said:


> Rather as if our Forestry Commission had a para-military wing.


I thought they did. Wasn't there a Sheriff of Nottingham who kept a certain Robin of Locksley out of Sherwood Forest?


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Chouan said:


> Interesting British Newspaper view here.
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/19/cliven-bundy-nevada-blm-libertarian


The article says that the BLM has had pipe bombs sent to their offices in other prior disputes. If I were the head of the BLM, I guess I would be tempted to err on the side of being heavy-handed as well in a F2F confrontation.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> What I see is a guy who packed up himself and his family to travel 1000 miles on Easter Weekend (no less) to the middle of nowhere to watch a Mexican standoff over a land dispute, where the party-in-question has been found over and over again in the courts to be in the wrong, and then who wrote an essay that elevates the party-in-question to folk hero status. I would consider that as encouragement to Mr Bundy to continue his unlawful actions.
> 
> As an American, does Mr Rogers have the right to do what he did? Absolutely. However, as the Sheriff of Elkhart County, he should have the sound judgment to do otherwise.


Actually Rogers went on his own dime with out his family and in contrast to your view he stated his purpose as ;_Because I love people, I don't want to see Federal agents or those opposing those agents come to any harm. 
_Personally I see that as sound judgement, we can never know what Rogers effect presence had but we do know no one was hurt, and the BLM stood down.

I believe this is far deeper than a single rancher not wanting to pay his bill. I hope all the facts will emerge and if the view that Bundy is no more than a deadbeat is correct the best possible course for the BLM would be a wide open discovery of the truth surrounding the Bundy/BLM interchanges of the last few decades.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> News outlets and pundits who are turning this guy into some kind of heroic martyr are going to have egg on their face.
> 
> He's basically a rustic version of an urban tax cheat or otherwise any number of people, celebrities included, who every year get in trouble for trying to hide money in complex tax shelters based on questionable advice.


 You may well be right SG but I wonder how you know?

I cant recall this many weapons sent out to collect a tax bill, ever, noting even close.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Chouan said:


> An armed and armoured para-military force seemed to be a bit disproportionate. On the other hand, if the law and the courts have been used and disregarded, and the person is known, apparently, for being heavily armed and for violent rhetoric, then options are limited. That the BLM has a paramilitary force with armoured vehicles etc was something of a surprise. Rather as if our Forestry Commission had a para-military wing.


 When there are too many dollars of uncollected taxes on a house due process calls for the eventual forced sale of the house in order to set and example and collect the tax owed. This happens quite often it seldom requires more than 50 armed agents, 60 at the most.

I just saw a more recent report claiming Bundy is a confirmed racist. Has nothing to do with cows or the BLM but it wont sit well if theres any truth to it.(And that seems likely )


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

Hitch said:


> I just saw a more recent report claiming Bundy is a confirmed racist. Has nothing to do with cows or the BLM but it wont sit well if theres any truth to it.(And that seem likely )


Bundy is despicable.

On the Despicability Scale, he falls someplace between Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Stubbly said:


> Bundy is despicable.
> 
> On the Despicability Scale, he falls someplace between Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan.


Hmmmm Thats pretty high on the scale,does it mean 300 armed BLM agents are heading to the Sharpton compound?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Hitch said:


> You may well be right SG but I wonder how you know?
> 
> I cant recall this many weapons sent out to collect a tax bill, ever, noting even close.


I'm not saying that the governments response may not have been overboard, or for that matter was overboard, but if you listen to this guy speak he really uses some over the top lingo.

My main issue is that it gives liberals a cudgel to hit over the head of conservatives; anyone advocating for a smaller more efficient government, less regulation and a fairer and simpler tax system is no different than him.

I do sympathize with him and I couldn't imagine if my livelihood were somehow threatened but this guy has repeatedly refused to pay fees to the Feds on the grounds that he believes the federal government doesn't have any jurisdiction over Nevada land.


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

Hitch said:


> Hmmmm Thats pretty high on the scale,does it mean 300 armed BLM agents are heading to the Sharpton compound?


Not a chance. Sharpton is untouchable while Eric Holder is Attorney General.



SG_67 said:


> My main issue is that it gives liberals a cudgel to hit over the head of conservatives; anyone advocating for a smaller more efficient government, less regulation and a fairer and simpler tax system is no different than him.


Yes. I've watched enough MSNBC to know that anyone who believes in less government power is also a racist.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Hitch said:


> Actually Rogers went on his own dime with out his family and in contrast to your view he stated his purpose as ;_Because I love people, I don't want to see Federal agents or those opposing those agents come to any harm.
> _Personally I see that as sound judgement, we can never know what Rogers effect presence had but we do know no one was hurt, and the BLM stood down.


I guess we differ on the definition of sound judgment. I think it's unprofessional for a sheriff to do what Mr Rogers did. It might have been on his own dime, but his job as sheriff is a 24/7 role. His actions undermine his authority. If he doesn't see that, then he doesn't deserve his job.

I do agree that the issue is bigger than Mr Bundy. However, I suspect that since the focus is on Mr Bundy now, the issue will not get the full attention it deserves. A pity.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Seems I owe Bundy an apology. Im not shy about granting the benefit of the doubt toward the right ,in this sort of thing, but I didnt want to be embarrassed by inadvertently supporting bigotry. I'm embarrassed now for jumping to a false conclusion, on very little evidence. It seems Bundy's 'huge' racism has been greatly exaggerated.
Which I believe is what Stubbly was quietly telling me.


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## Stubbly (Jul 26, 2013)

Though some of his words may have been indelicate, it seems the point Bundy was making is that government policies may have made things worse for African-Americans, or have made things not much better.

"I deeply regret using such a poor choice of words. I sincerely apologize for offending any and all Americans, especially African Americans for my improper comments."
- *Harry Reid*, apologizing for calling Barack Obama a light-skinned African American with no ***** dialect

Cliven Bundy's allegedy "Racist" Comments


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Stubbly said:


> Though some of his words may have been indelicate, it seems the point Bundy was making is that government policies may have made things worse for African-Americans, or have made things not much better.
> 
> "I deeply regret using such a poor choice of words. I sincerely apologize for offending any and all Americans, especially African Americans for my improper comments."
> - *Harry Reid*, apologizing for calling Barack Obama a light-skinned African American with no ***** dialect


Let's not forget our sitting VP:


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

https://www.tpnn.com/2014/04/27/jud...the-bundy-ranch-invasion-to-dirty-harry-reid/


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