# Is the term WASP pejorative?



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

I vote no..

Anyone have any thoughts?


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*I did not vote*

I believe it is always intended as a pejorative by those who use it, but many who are addressed as such wear it with pride.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

It is usually used by some to insult those they feel have unfair advantages.

I would find "Cracker" or "Honky" (if anyone uses that any more) to be more insulting, although neither of these even gets anywhere near the "fighting words" level.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I think the term WASP is an insult for those who are of that specific religion.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Howard said:


> I think the term WASP is an insult for those who are of that *specific religion.*


Okay, now that was an old school "Howard" post. If you can return to this level of performance, I would be happy. Your game has been slipping lately.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Okay, now that was an old school "Howard" post. If you can return to this level of performance, I would be happy. Your game has been slipping lately.


What do you mean? I thought the word WASP was a Jewish or African-Amercian term used in the 60's or 70's.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Howard said:


> What do you mean? I thought the word WASP was a Jewish or African-Amercian term used in the 60's or 70's.


Wow, two good ones in a row. Maybe you were just going through a slump?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Wow, two good ones in a row. Maybe you were just going through a slump?


No,I'm just trying to express my own opinion,Wayfar.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

I voted yes, although it depends who's using the term.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Howard said:


> No,I'm just trying to express my own opinion,Wayfar.


Howa, Well good for, You! (you should have stopped though...knowing when to take the bow is important!)


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Howa, Well good for, You! (you should have stopped though...knowing when to take the bow is important!)


Yeah,maybe I should stop.I wouldn't want to insult anyone on here.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

And is it interchangeable with TRAD? Must you be one to be the other? Is it possible to be a WAS, not a WASP? Or an AS. (Note full stop!) It seems almost demeaning to just be a W.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Howard said:


> Yeah,maybe I should stop.I wouldn't want to insult anyone on here.


Too late for that.


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

Yes, I think it is typically used as a kind of mild pejorative.

The term is itself a form of implicit argument -- that the manners, methods, and general approach of that group are not _universally_ virtuous, but instead represent the peculiar habits of a very small, well-defined, insular clan.

The term is a way of emphasizing the group's cultural isolation. It is therefore an implied rebuttal to that group's supposed claim of cultural hegemony.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

I am a WASP and damn proud of it. :icon_smile_big: Similarly, I could care less if someone calls me a "Honky" or "Cracker."

It seems terms used for women, and other minority and ethnic groups (the "N" and "C" words, for example) are far more derisive. So, I guess the question should be, "Exactly what term would really p*ss off a WASP?"


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

TMMKC said:


> I am a WASP and damn proud of it. :icon_smile_big: Similarly, I could care less if someone calls me a "Honky" or "Cracker."
> 
> It seems terms used for women, and other minority and ethnic groups (the "N" and "C" words, for example) are far more derisive. So, I guess the question should be, "Exactly what term would really p*ss off a WASP?"


What usually works is explaining the truth: there's no such thing as white people. Or black.


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

Its totally inappropriate. In our current political environment, it is only acceptible to use derogatory words against the Polish or Catholics.....


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

NewYorkBuck said:


> Its totally inappropriate. In our current political environment, it is only acceptible to use derogatory words against the Polish or Catholics.....


...or the Lactose Intolerant. If they have no tolerance for lactose, then I have no tolerance for them.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

NewYorkBuck said:


> Its totally inappropriate. In our current political environment, it is only acceptible to use derogatory words against the Polish or Catholics.....


No, no, no. Take it from me, Catholics are very well defended. The P-bomb knows this!


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> No, no, no. Take it from me, Catholics are very well defended. The P-bomb knows this!


Case in point:

https://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1077832007


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

FrankDC said:


> What usually works is explaining the truth: there's no such thing as white people. Or black.


Sounds great on paper. Doesn't carry much water in the real world.


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

I certainly intend it to be derisive whenever I use it :devil:


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I have always found the "White" part of "WASP" to be slightly annoying. To the best of my knowledge, Anglo-Saxons don't come in any other colors! I have a hunch a similar redundancy would annoy other ethnic groups, e.g., "Black *****," "Brown Mexican," "Yellow Oriental." 

"Honky" and "Cracker" I just find funny. I am not Hungarian, nor am I a poor, rural Southern white.

I have heard that "WASP" is used to denote the ethnicity when they have money. When they don't have money, they become "********," "crackers," etc. 

I should guess that the percentage of Americans of "pure" Anglo-Saxon ancestry would be pretty small. My mother, who would more or less qualify as a "WASP," had a good deal of Celtic blood (mainly Welsh) and a dash of more exotic strains, including American Indian.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

NewYorkBuck said:


> Its totally inappropriate. In our current political environment, it is only acceptible to use derogatory words against the Polish or Catholics.....


I don't know any Polish-Americans that aren't Catholic. I've always wondered why the Poles have been the butt of so many jokes.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> I don't know any Polish-Americans that aren't Catholic. I've always wondered why the Poles have been the butt of so many jokes.


The truth? Much of it comes from the continual partitioning of thier country by all thier neighbors over history and more recently from thier use of horse calvary against mechanized infantry during Hitler's blitzkrieg.

By %, Poland is probably the most-Caholic country in the world (other than Vatican City).


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I've had the honour of talking at length with cavalrymen from WW2 Italy, the USA and Poland. The story of a polish charge is a falsehood. What in fact happened, the polish cavalry deployed as part of a great flanking manuever en mass against infantry. This was pretty much standard tactics and in fact was the Allied formulae for victory in WW1 as soon as the never realised breakout from the trenchs happened.( A good read on this is The Social History of the Machinegun.) According to my venerated riding master they in fact made a intitial reconaissance in force seeing small german infantry units only to face rapidly approaching and unreported tank units. There was no 'tilting at windmills' in the form of Krupp steel, but in fact a desperate race to retreat. And here is a touch of polish genius- they in fact continued westward before flanking back and regaining the fragile Polish defensive lines, thereby reducing casualties from eastward facing german cannon and machinegun fire. If anybody deserves ridicule, tell kraut jokes about an army that in fact remained heavily dependant on horse transport throughout the war.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

I think that WASP culture should be something that is seen as distinct and rich in its own traditions - and not a flat normative "yard stick" against which other minority cultures are measured. 

Some of the younger people today will say that they do not have a culture because theirs is not among the cultures being written about or celebrated because of cultural fashion.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> The truth? Much of it comes from the continual partitioning of thier country by all thier neighbors over history and more recently from thier use of horse calvary against mechanized infantry during Hitler's blitzkrieg.
> 
> By %, Poland is probably the most-Caholic country in the world (other than Vatican City).


Poland also used to be heavily Jewish.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Howard said:


> What do you mean? I thought the word WASP was a Jewish or African-Amercian term used in the 60's or 70's.


LOL...Good one Howard


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Thanks for the replys everyone. I don't think its perjorative, but definitely some do, so I'll use the term "old money" from now on. 

Cheers


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

JRR said:


> LOL...Good one Howard


What? I remember someone used it in the 60's and 70's but not sure who said it?


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Howard said:


> What? I remember someone used it in the 60's and 70's but not sure who said it?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

JRR said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant


Thanks JR,You solved my question.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Howard said:


> Thanks JR,You solved my question.


I am sure you read Digby's book and were just confused...


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Howard said:


> Thanks JR,You solved my question.


If it were only that simple.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

JRR said:


> Poland also used to be heavily Jewish.


What changed?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

rkipperman,

Are you really serious?

Karl


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

In case he is, 

Much of Poland's Jewish population was probably slaughtered during the Holocaust by the Nazis in World War II.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> In case he is,
> 
> Much of Poland's Jewish population was probably slaughtered during the Holocaust by the Nazis in World War II.


You are sadly correct...


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

From me one of the highest compliments.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

I've never viewed it as pejorative. I know some try to use it that way. When I converted to Catholicism, I was a little sad to lose my WASP status........

I seem to remember a WASP joke book decades ago - the two I remember were:

How do you recognize the bride at a WASP wedding: she's the one kissing the Golden Retriever.

How do you know a WASP is taking a shower: he/she gets out of the shower to pee.

BTW, I don't view WASP and "Old Money" as the same thing - they are not equivalents.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Rocker said:


> I've never viewed it as pejorative. I know some try to use it that way. When I converted to Catholicism, I was a little sad to lose my WASP status........
> 
> I seem to remember a WASP joke book decades ago - the two I remember were:
> 
> ...


You are correct, they are not exact equivalents.

However, for my job in trusts, I need a term for old line families here in Cincy. Most are Protestant, so WASP does work, but I also don't want to piss off people. For my purposes at work "old money" will work.

I just like the term WASP since it distinguishes the Protestant elite from the German, Irish or Jewish elite in town.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Rocker said:


> BTW, I don't view WASP and "Old Money" as the same thing - they are not equivalents.


Me either, I think of WASP's as old Americans or real Americans. Though I do associate Old Money with WASP's.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

jpeirpont,



jpeirpont said:


> Me either, I think of WASP's as old Americans or real Americans. Though I do associate Old Money with WASP's.


So those of us who aren't WASP's are not real Americans? Your posts get more ridiculous by the hour.

Karl


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> jpeirpont,
> 
> So those of us who aren't WASP's are not real Americans? Your posts get more ridiculous by the hour.
> 
> Karl


Sorry to offend. Not in the mood to fight about it, its probably a ridiculous opinion but I feel no need to defend it or change it. Maybe "most American" would be better.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

White- Anglo-Saxon-Papist? I can garantee every term invented will be taken in goodwill or hostility by somebody. One of my very early posts made a joke about the irish. People were all over me, blind to my good swedish name of Kavanaugh. I use the term Abo and somebody in the Netherlands gets upset in spite of my ocassional allusions to an avocation of archaeology and my closest friend a black kid from Detroit named Joe-Joe. I'm proud to be a descendant of the first ******'s, though most of the ignorant illegals think it an insult. Giving names to people? " So easy a caveman can do it." - a local T.V. car insurance advertisement


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

...and this is how political correctness started, gentlemen (and a few ladies). It's a nasty malady and keeps people from speaking their minds.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

jpeirpont,



jpeirpont said:


> Sorry to offend. Not in the mood to fight about it, its probably a ridiculous opinion but I feel no need to defend it or change it. Maybe "most American" would be better.


"Most American"? You don't do yourself any favors with your follow up post. And don't worry about not offering up a more robust defense of your ignorance, you can't salvage an opinion that is indefensible.

Karl


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> Me either, I think of WASP's as old Americans or real Americans. Though I do associate Old Money with WASP's.


I would say that native americans are the *real *americans. The rest are just visiting.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Kav said:


> White- Anglo-Saxon-*Papist?*


That's it! I am telling the anonymous poster that reports me whenever I use the P word on you! The P-Bomb has spoken!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rkipperman said:


> I would say that native americans are the *real *americans. The rest are just visiting.


What would you call an Asian in America though? If their descendants, the Native Americans, are the "real americans" does that not make the Asians family somehow?


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

rkipperman said:


> I would say that native americans are the *real *americans. The rest are just visiting.


There was no entity called "America" when the various tribes controlled these lands. When I say America I mean more than simply the land.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Jpeirpont,

So Italians, Spanish and Portugese (Catholic almost to a man) are the real Americans then, right? 

Really stop putting your ignorance on display.

Karl


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> Jpeirpont,
> 
> So Italians, Spanish and Portugese (Catholic almost to a man) are the real Americans then, right?
> 
> ...


I said nothing of the sort. Your itching for a fight I see, but you'll have to look elsewhere. I've reached my monthly quota for race/ethnic related topics.
Good day.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> What would you call an Asian in America though? If their descendants, the Native Americans, are the "real americans" does that not make the Asians family somehow?


Good question. I'll have to think about it, though I don't think the definition of a "real" american affects anything.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Tapes my official enrollment paper in the Choctaw nation rolls to monitor. 'Indians' were not the first americans. America is a name given in honour of an eyetalian geographer who never left Europe by name of Amerigo Vespucci. I think he made one of my many cheap starter silk ties, the purty olive one with bronze rectangles and half torn keeper. Lots of people claim Jay Silverheels was in fact an eyetalian, mostly other indians he wouldn't loan money to. And looking at the collective empirical evidence, which isn't a whole lot to go on at this point anyway, the 'indians' themselves have shaky first people credentials. It looks roughly like this. There was probably a very early initial migration from 50,000 to 30,000 years ago. These are the dudes who helped wipe out the megafauna ( mammalian SUVs) and gave us L.A.s first murder, a woman's skull found in the la Brea tar pits, embracing that sticky goo travelled over by contemporary women to endear themselves to other drivers who'd like to repeat that early murder. Then about 10,000 years ago a massive ( well, massive by pre columbian numbers- that eyetalian possibly really spanyard Columbus again) second wave came over from Siberia that really got things going. This is shown in liguistic studies which show all the major linquistic groups ultimately descending from two root languages; one early and one much later by diffusion and liinguistic change formulae. Of course, tell any indian this and he gets all misty eyed talking about the island of the west, rainbow bridge, the underworld, turtle island and assorted other smoke blown up everyone's nether region like so much white sage for purification of the soul. Being different gives you the edge of claiming being BETTER or more DESERVING, usually at $60 for a sweat ceremony, polyester dream catcher and spirit guide name( eagle and Wolf the most popular) Nothing more than another version of $60,000 for a year at some Ivy league school and silk tie with a spirit name like Skipper or Buffy.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

rkipperman said:


> I would say that native americans are the *real *americans. The rest are just visiting.


"No tribe, howsoever insignificant, and no nation, howsoever mighty, occupies a foot of land that was not stolen."

Mark Twain

For more information, See "Kennewick Man"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Winston Churchill in his 4 volume History of the English Speaking Peoples sums it up in Volume 1, and I paraphrase " For roundheads or longheads, Bronze is superior for bashing in skulls."


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Rocker said:


> How do you know a WASP is taking a shower: he/she gets out of the shower to pee.


Someone told me that joke years ago and I never understood why it was supposed to be funny. People pee in the shower? On their feet?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Rocker said:


> "No tribe, howsoever insignificant, and no nation, howsoever mighty, occupies a foot of land that was not stolen."
> 
> Mark Twain
> 
> ...


Stolen is a misleading and in some cases erroneous term. E.g. when Asiatic tribes first migrated into North America, as far as we know, there were no existing indigenous human populations on the continent. So one would be hard pressed to explain who they "stole" their land from. Maybe from buffalos, bears and trees?

A lot of people don't understand or respect the difference between "native" populations (which simply do not exist anywhere in the world) and indigenous immigrant populations. "Native" Americans were never native to North America, but they were indigenous by the time Scandanavian and European explorers arrived.


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

VS said:


> Someone told me that joke years ago and I never understood why it was supposed to be funny. People pee in the shower? On their feet?


Those of who can aim try to avoid feet.:icon_smile_big:

-most of the time


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Stolen is a misleading and in some cases erroneous term. E.g. when Asiatic tribes first migrated into North America, as far as we know, there were no existing indigenous human populations on the continent. So one would be hard pressed to explain who they "stole" their land from. * Maybe from buffalos, bears and trees?*


Speciest!


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## cufflink44 (Oct 31, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Much of Poland's Jewish population was probably slaughtered during the Holocaust by the Nazis in World War II.


*Much* of the Jewish population? *Probably*?

How about _*virtually all*_ and _*definitely*_?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I hedged my bet because I did not know the precise numbers. I knew there was a holocaust.

I'm not sure if the tone of your reply was necessary, but I suppose it made you happy.


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> "Native" Americans were never native to North America, but they were indigenous by the time Scandanavian and European explorers arrived.


True.

Also, it may help to remind ourselves once in a while that the "Native Americans" is a shorthand term for a very wide array of groups, cultures and nations. I am sure that an Chickasaw would not consider himself interchangeable with a Cherokee, etc.

Nor did these various people always live in perfect harmony with each other, in a state of natural bliss, frolicking peacefully in an unspoilt garden paradise. It is my understanding that there was quite a bit of warring, encroachment, displacement, taking of prisoners, absorbing, dividing and reorganizing of groups among the indigenous peoples well before the arrival of Europeans.

As such, when the Europeans arrived, they encountered what can only be described as the _*victorious*_ indigenous people, the ones that had survived contact with other indigenous people.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

cufflink44 said:


> *Much* of the Jewish population? *Probably*?
> 
> How about _*virtually all*_ and _*definitely*_?


The numbers make you sick if you see the before and after...

"The Jewish communities of eastern Europe were devastated. In 1933, Poland had the largest Jewish population in Europe, numbering over three million. By 1950, the Jewish population of Poland was reduced to about 45,000."

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005687


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## cufflink44 (Oct 31, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I hedged my bet because I did not know the precise numbers. I knew there was a holocaust.
> 
> I'm not sure if the tone of your reply was necessary, but I suppose it made you happy.


Forgive me if I'm hypersensitive about this issue. My father and all my grandparents came from Jewish shtetls in Poland (dad's side) and Russia (mom's side). They were lucky enough to get out in time. Most others were not.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

FrankDC said:


> Stolen is a misleading and in some cases erroneous term. E.g. when Asiatic tribes first migrated into North America, as far as we know, there were no existing indigenous human populations on the continent. So one would be hard pressed to explain who they "stole" their land from. Maybe from buffalos, bears and trees?
> 
> A lot of people don't understand or respect the difference between "native" populations (which simply do not exist anywhere in the world) and indigenous immigrant populations. "Native" Americans were never native to North America, but they were indigenous by the time Scandanavian and European explorers arrived.


The "Asiatic tribes" came in waves - some displacing/conquering others - read the link on Kennewick Man.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

JRR said:


> I am sure you read Digby's book and were just confused...


What is in Digby's book?


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

I hate it when someone is intending to call me a ***, but calls me a WASP instead. =)


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Howard said:


> What is in Digby's book?


Lots of words


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Everything's OK, Cufflink. I understand, now.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

They hardly came in waves, maybe over a few as my stolen graduate thesis argued a possible sea migration based on the large umiak skin boats of Siberia and Alaska, the great canoes of the Northwest and the Coastal Chumash being the best seafarering vessels pre columbian. They were a bunch of caribou hunters, following the herds back and forth across the landbridge for countless generations much as the modern Qu'ichim do in ANWAR, excuse me, Halliburton's next investment.And there really weren't enough people to push around or dominate anybody else. In fact, Somebody finally looked at the so called clovis and folsum technologies and damned if they aren't the same points used in Europe to hunt there. Hunting peoples ironically are usually the most peacefull, at least outside of Idaho good old boys who smash up California plated cars. It wasn't until they pushed on in an explosion of expansion and started cultivating corn,squash and beans that the trouble started. Anyone ever notice how much ruder people are in the fruit and vegetable section of a market than those standing politely at the butchers?


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

*Only if used in a demeaning manner*

The term was coined by Mr. E Digby Baltzel when he wrote "The Protestant Establishment" back in the 60s. Havent looked at it in a long time but he was more or less detailing the downfall of said group. 
The acronym wasnt meant to be derogatory, but has been used as such. Note the context, inflection, and intent of the speaker when discerning. Some have come to use it as a badge of honor ie either simply proud of their background or to imply a high social standing, real or not.

Generally WASPs are decended from colonial American settlers from the British Isles who practiced various protestant faiths. As well as various English groups, that could include Welsh and lowland/border/Ulster Scots, and reformed Highland Scots. Once in North America, further ad-mixtures of protestant Dutch and German settlers show up in most family trees, as does the occasional native American matriarch.

It definitly has class overtones as Baltzell was using it to describe the educated and monied elites. As previously pionted out, middle and lower class WASPs have various other lables applied to them. In the South it could be ********, Hillbillys, or Crackers. The first two having heavy protestant overtones. In the NY/New England we have Yankees and Swamp Yankees, and many other obscure local appelations.


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## Valhson (Mar 26, 2007)

Do I have to be called anglo-saxon? Really? What is so bad about claiming norse? Honestly, that is where my family comes from... pretty sure there are few saxon in that area...ic12337:


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

rkipperman said:


> I would say that native americans are the *real *americans. The rest are just visiting.


I'm a native American: I was born and raised here in the United States. I believe you meant American Indian.

As for the original question: why would I be ashamed to be a WASP - even if the term is redundent?


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