# Collar Roll-- Please Explain and show pictures



## aikon (Jan 29, 2007)

I have been unable to find an appropriate definiton of "Collar Roll", though I fully understand that everyone in here obsesses over it. I figure that I should be obsessing over it too, but I can't figure out exactly what it is. Would someone be so kind as to provide me with an illustrated definition of both good and bad collar roll.

Also, I'd appreciate a quick tutorial on what "fused construction" is, and why it is so bad. 

Thanks so much.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Collar roll basically pertains to the bell effect of the classic (Brooks 3-3/8") button-down. When worn properly and when the collar buttons are situated correctly there will be a definite curve in the collar. On shirts that fit poorly (such as most members of Congress the roll can actually be reversed and look very sloppy). Some button-downs (think Polo) a combination of shorter points and improper button location results in the collar having no arch or bell effect at all. This also seems to be the case with most of the new noniron button-downs even when the collar fits and the buttons are located correctly. I don't have picture editing capability but if anyone wants to PM me I can fax you some examples. I'm sure other members of AAAC will have numerous examples of good, bad and no roll.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

For a much larger version, click to https://www.ohiou.edu/news/pix/BUCKLEY.JPG


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Crazyquik's example of William F. Buckley is exactly the "negative" roll I spoke of-this results from either/both the collar being too tight and/or the buttons being placed improperly, and is the antithesis of the studied elegance that a properly fitted and buttoned button-down will provide.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

The Brooks Brothers history, _Generations of Style_, explains that shirts with button-down collars, introduced around 1900, became enormously popular during the 1920s. A new generation wanted to set itself apart from the late Victorians and Edwardians who wore stiff, stand-up, detachable shirt collars. The button-down collar was soft, relaxed, even slouchy. The button-down collar's roll moved and shifted as the wearer moved. This makes sense, because supposedly the style originated on shirts worn by polo players (although there is a school of thought disputing that story). Anyway, the movement fit right in with flapper zeitgeist. Think of bobbed hair and dresses with long strings of beads, or the charleston compared to the waltz. Stiffness was out.

This brings us to why I don't like a lining in the collar of a button-down shirt. Anything tending to stiffen the shirt collar and make it look too perfect and immobile goes against the sporty spirit of the button-down. It's supposed to be a soft and slouchy collar, not a stiff and proper collar.

Edit: I should qualify this. Some shirting fabrics, such as broadcloths, are so thin that they do need a lining in a button-down collar. It's button-down oxford cloth shirts that I prefer with unlined collars.


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*here's a sketch from the Mercer website*

https://www.mercerandsons.com/

IMHO there are two types of roll, and i've commented on this before. Buckley's roll above, and that shown on the mercer site is a liberty bell. BB shirts sometimes also do a roll that is an exact opposite. Goes narrow on the top, then curves out on the bottom.

Both are acceptable, though i prefer a liberty bell.

Mrks


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

aikon said:


> ...*I figure that I should be obsessing over it too*, but I can't figure out exactly what it is...


Think for yourself, and dress for yourself. Learn about classic American clothing on this forum, then do what makes the most sense to you, or works best for you. You should NOT be doing what everone does here, because they're doing what's best for themselves (maybe), not for you. Yeah, it's a bit tricky for someone new, but pay attention and above all THINK.

As for the right collar roll, I've run across dozens of photos of button-down shirts and they all roll differently on different people. Unless one goes bespoke with a sympathetic and patient shirtmaker, then on RTW shirts the damn collars are going to do whatever they feel like.

DD


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> Think for yourself, and dress for yourself. Learn about classic American clothing on this forum, then do what makes the most sense to you, or works best for you.
> 
> As for the right collar roll, I've run across dozens of photos of button-down shirts and they all roll differently on different people. Unless one goes bespoke with a sympathetic and patient shirtmaker, then on RTW shirts the damn collars are going to do whatever they feel like.
> 
> DD


Agreed. Yes, do think for yourself, but I like to hear and encourage the obsessing. I enjoy hearing the (sometimes) strong opinions of the forum members. I really like it when I can think to myself, "There goes ____ again!--I love that guy--wouldn't dress like him, but I'm glad he's out there."


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

HistoryDoc said:


> Agreed. Yes, do think for yourself, but I like to hear and encourage the obsessing. I enjoy hearing the (sometimes) strong opinions of the forum members. I really like it when I can think to myself, "There goes ____ again!--I love that guy--wouldn't dress like him, but I'm glad he's out there."


Exactly. Dressing trad for the sake of dressing trad seems, to me, to be little more than just putting on a uniform. If a particular article or style of clothing isn't going to work for you, don't wear it. Maybe there are some people who would pronounce anathema on anyone suggesting darts or pleats, but wear what you need to wear. If you need, for example, some shoulder padding to offset your melon head, then by all means buy a jacket with some padding in it.

Anyway...


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

For some good examples of collar roll, check out the "What are you wearing" thread.


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## JohnMS (Feb 18, 2004)

*Example of a Brooks Brothers collar roll*

Here is an example of a BB collar roll on an OCBD I'm wearing today. The color and lighting isn't very good, but it does show the roll.

https://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbshirtta4.jpg


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

*The Bill Gates Roll*


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

*The Bill Gates Roll*


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

*The Bill Gates Roll*

+1


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

5k+ posts and he's still got it.

Well played.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

COLLAR roll, not DOLLAR roll.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

When I first read the OP I thought the question was about the roll behind the collar of an ill fitting suit or sport coat.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Since this thread refuses to die I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. 

I just watched Marley and Me with my wife. I was struck by the editor of the Miami newspaper. In every scene but one he was wearing a solid button down, either white or blue (iirc). I suspect they were Brooks, and the collar was outstanding (though the tie was never done up properly). The only exception was when he was once wearing a white point collar.


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## mayostard (Mar 10, 2013)

John Bolton put on a clinic yesterday on fox news. Please disregard the politics, I'm certainly not going to get into what I think about this guy personally.










https://video.foxnews.com/v/2589122894001/wh-claims-core-of-al-qaeda-has-been-greatly-diminished/


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

wnh said:


> Dressing trad for the sake of dressing trad seems, to me, to be little more than just putting on a uniform. If a particular article or style of clothing isn't going to work for you, don't wear it.


Exactly. I respect the tradition involved with this clothing, but I just think a "proper" collar roll appears odd.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

mayostard: I don't know. The collar is doing what someone mentioned earlier (as in six years ago, jeez you newbies and your thread revives ), only rolling towards the bottom. His shirt is either stiffy starched, the collar fused, or both. The use of anything besides a four-in-hand with a button-down collar always struck me as wrong, too.

universitystripe: Without at least a hint of roll, you may as well have bought a point collar and attached decorative buttons to it.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

Member OBCD actually did a pictorial on his blog regarding collar rolls which is pretty illustrative: https://oxfordclothbuttondown.com/2013/07/collar-roll/

As for John Bolton, I saw the report live and actually called my wife in to point out his seersucker jacket. Very well played. Side note: in the old Malloy book "Dress for Success" he advised newscasters not to wear thin stripes as they would blend and distort on television. Today's HD signal obviates that admonition as Bolton's stripes looked great.


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

Four Liberty Bell collar rolls: 1) BB Broadcloth w/ silk emblematic, 2) J Press Chambray with Silk Grenadine Fina 3) JPress OCBD with Wool paisley foulard 4) BB Pinpoint with critter tie (Ladybugs) - all tied with four-in-hand knot


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## Spin Evans (Feb 2, 2013)

Billax said:


> Four Liberty Bell collar rolls: 1) BB Broadcloth w/ silk emblematic, 2) J Press Chambray with Silk Grenadine Fina 3) JPress OCBD with Wool paisley foulard 4) BB Pinpoint with critter tie (Ladybugs) - all tied with four-in-hand knot


These shots make me long for you to post in the WAYWT thread again, Billax!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^+1. I enthusiastically agree with Spin Evans!
In just a single post and four photographs Billax has gifted us with pictorial tutorials on proper tie knots, exceptional collar roll(s), positive color coordination and complimentary pattern matching. Anyone (except perhaps myself) can take and post a picture, but only a true master can elicit the thousand words of wisdom, inherent in said pictures! Thank-you, Billax!


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

Jovan said:


> universitystripe: Without at least a hint of roll, you may as well have bought a point collar and attached decorative buttons to it.


Yes, I agree with that. Polo's ocbds give me just enough without being too dramatic. It's just a personal preference. Admittedly, a larger roll would be better for ties.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Billax: Those rolls are looking mightly perfect. I picked up the ladybug tie a while back - still looking for an opportunity to wear it.


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## Garasaki (May 9, 2013)

Billax said:


> Four Liberty Bell collar rolls: 1) BB Broadcloth w/ silk emblematic, 2) J Press Chambray with Silk Grenadine Fina 3) JPress OCBD with Wool paisley foulard 4) BB Pinpoint with critter tie (Ladybugs) - all tied with four-in-hand knot


Please sir, may I have another!!!!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Should I contribute pics of my Mercer & Sons collar? I happen to be wearing one today.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Yes, please. Since you awoke to find yourself in one today. :icon_smile:


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

My question would be different: what am I doing wrong? My BB must-iron pinpoint button collars just flat out don't roll. They sort of rumple instead. What gives?


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

I thought that I would a few of mine.


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

Spin, Eagle, Tilton, and Garasaki: Thank you for your compliments. I read AAAT regularly, and enjoy many of the topics. When I find one that I believe I can make a contribution to, I do. However, I post my looks on a smaller, quieter, more reflective forum. As a geezer, it's more suitable to me.

AAAT covers all the topics, has a wide age and experience range, it's energetic, sometimes contentious, suffers a few poseurs, and has terrific moderators. I think that's a good thing for most guys trying to achieve a classic Ivy League look. Speaking of a classic Ivy League look, I am in complete agreement with Trad-ish, who recommends OCBD's fine blog post on collar roll. OCBD is a guy who, in my opinion, has made exemplary progress in attaining the classic Ivy look. He is very careful about his purchases, makes very few mistakes, and sequences his purchases to acquire apparel pieces that complete his classic Ivy wardrobe. He's done this better and more thoughtfully than any younger guy I've seen. His blog is pleasant reading for me!

Back on the topic, I wrote a brief reminiscence about what's currently called the "Liberty Bell" collar at my other place. I hadn't intended to post it here, but posters on this topic have asked good questions. My short write-up and sketch adds precious little to the discussion, save for some possible background. Still ....

___________________

Here I sketch out the mathematical reasons why the Liberty Bell collar roll is such a classic. I didn't originate this notion, but was led to it by the Scotsman owner of the Campus Ivy store where I was lucky enough to work when I was in college. He said something like this: "The perfection of the Classic button-down collar with a four-in-hand tie is the result of the resolved tension between two sets of opposing curves. One opposing pair of ogee curves and another opposing pair of arcs." He had a slight burr, which can't be duplicated in print, but was great to listen to nonetheless.

I reproduce here what he drew for me in 1959 or 1960:










He didn't use the phrase "Liberty Bell Collar" but rather the "Classic Collar." I liked his explanation then and I like it today.
___________________

Since I believe that the 14" x 14" rectangle including collar, tie, dimple, arch, lapels, gorge, bloom, belly, and - optionally - pocket square, is the single most noticed area of a man's look, it's well worth getting these elements right!


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

^ Great illustration, Bill, and thank you. This contrasts completely with Bolton's collar roll from an earlier post which is awful.


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

Seeing that the Button-down collar is the MOST visible distinction between the ivy League Look and the cutaway collar of the Style Forum, here are a few more examples:


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

Billax said:


> Seeing that the Button-down collar is the MOST visible distinction between the ivy League Look and the cutaway collar of the Style Forum, here are a few more examples:


I could not stop looking at this one. The shoulders on that jacket combined with its color with that blue of the shirt. Pretty fantastic.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

While I have seen and read the pictorials by both Billax and OCBD, I have to say that it is wonderful to see them again. These two fine gentlemen know what they're talking about! 

In my experience, I usually achieve success with the roll (if we want to think of this as a thing to achieve success with) if I'm wearing a properly fitting shirt and a good tie--and if I can produce a good knot (four in hand) with the tie. At the same time, I just do the best I can and then forget it, i.e., I don't obsess over the course of my day about how my roll looks. When I think of the sartorial role models (no pun intended) I look to from decades ago, I don't think of them as the sort of men who ran to the restroom mirror every half-hour to check their look. Likewise, I don't want to be so encumbered by my vanity.


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