# Does Alden Want to Be Out of the Restoration Business?



## adirondaki (Jan 8, 2004)

I've purchased only Aldens for business shoes for nearly 15 years now. For most of those years, the restoration service cost $125; while the price seemed a little steep, the shoes returned in like-new condition in three to four weeks, and they threw in a decent pair of cedar shoe trees, so I was content. Eventually, some time in the last few years, the price rose to $135; I shrugged -- what doesn't cost more over time?

In August, it was time to send in two of my three pairs of work shoes. I checked on the price before sending them: it had risen yet again -- to $149. That's getting awfully high; still, I gritted my teeth and sent them in to Alden. 

But the price increase wasn't the worst part. Not long after shipping the shoes, I received the regular postcard from Alden acknowledging receipt; however, the printed line where it says that I will get my shoes back in three to four weeks had been crossed out, and written in by hand it was "8 - 10 weeks". 

I sent Alden one pair of my shoes in the first week of August, the other in the second or third week of August. Here it, October 18, and I still haven't gotten either pair back.

That's a very long time. So long, in fact, that the third pair -- which was fine at the time I sent the other two pairs in -- now has holes in its soles.

So, I am wondering if Alden simply doesn't want to be in the restoration business, and is setting punitive prices and taking a punitively long time to do the restorations in an attempt to discourage customers, rather than making a straightforward announcement which would cause upset (the availability of the restoration service being one of the shoes' selling points...).

What do you reckon? Anyone else gone through this yet and feeling as put out by this as I am? 

I don't think I can tolerate doing this again. And that means that I am going to think about a different shoemaker the next time I buy shoes...


----------



## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

The company makes a superb product, but Alden only has a small number of skilled employees. Consequently, there is a backlog for new shoe production as well as restoration services.
You could switch to another brand, but the shoe quality will not be as good as Alden.



adirondaki said:


> I've purchased only Aldens for business shoes for nearly 15 years now. For most of those years, the restoration service cost $125; while the price seemed a little steep, the shoes returned in like-new condition in three to four weeks, and they threw in a decent pair of cedar shoe trees, so I was content. Eventually, some time in the last few years, the price rose to $135; I shrugged -- what doesn't cost more over time?
> 
> In August, it was time to send in two of my three pairs of work shoes. I checked on the price before sending them: it had risen yet again -- to $149. That's getting awfully high; still, I gritted my teeth and sent them in to Alden.
> 
> ...


----------



## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

You are, of course, starting trouble by questioning Alden.

To put your concern in perspective, Church's returned by custom grades in 8 weeks, like new and with new dust bags, for $140--which included the international shipping both ways.

I personally think Alden is increasingly only interested in dealing with its devotees--those who have drunk the Alden Kool Aid and keep coming back for more. I don't understand this, personally. Aldens are just a good pair of shoes, no more and no less, but their prices are very high, they allow their retailers almost no flexibility in pricing, and they restrict availability. I think they get away with this because of the I <3 Alden factor. 

I like the Alden shoes I own and find their shell colors unmatched, but they are neither the best shoes I own nor my favorites, and I have quite a few. But whenever I am looking for a new shoe and consider Alden, I find myself dealing with some version of the same problem you are encountering and usually buy elsewhere.

In my darker moments I think Alden is to fine shoes what Lladro is to art. If you really <3 them you just have to THEM, not a shoe that meets such-and-such criteria, but, specifically, THEM. Their prices, availability, and service reflect that.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

B. Nelson has more tolerable prices and has gotten great reviews. Maybe try them?

https://www.bnelsonshoes.com/high_grade_shoes.asp


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Indeed the prices are more competitive and even more importantly, the turn around time is generally two weeks, or less! :thumbs-up:


----------



## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

Jovan said:


> B. Nelson has more tolerable prices and has gotten great reviews. Maybe try them?
> 
> https://www.bnelsonshoes.com/high_grade_shoes.asp


I haven't used this service myself, but I was going to make the same suggestion. Maybe sticking with the shoes you like and switching repair services is the answer.


----------



## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

I can attest to the quality of Nick's work. The only advantage of factory restorations is that Alden will re-stain the uppers. But B. Nelson will put a superior sole on at a lower price.


----------



## adirondaki (Jan 8, 2004)

I do think they make a good product, and I think I have been a loyal customer. I appreciate that there may be a limited number of skilled employees, but I don't understand why the restoration service now takes more than twice as long as it used to, and why they would raise the prices at the same time that the service -- at least in terms of how long it takes to get my shoes back -- is declining....


----------



## adirondaki (Jan 8, 2004)

Many thanks to you all for the suggestion about B. Nelson. I'll definitively use them next time.


----------



## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

I have no dog in the Alden fight. 

If Alden wanted to stop doing repairs, then it would refuse to take them. This would be a mistake since its competitors do repairs. 

On the issue of the delay, Alden might have a labor shortage in its repair department. The company's priority is to finish and ship its new orders. I cannot fault a manufacturer for this in that repairs fall into the category of an "acommodation."

On the issue of cost, $149 is a tad high but not insanely high. Shipping shoes is expensive. Figure that Alden's shipping, shipping insurance, packaging, and handling costs are about $30. Therefore, the cost of the materials and repair are about $119. Again, this is a tad higher than a local cobbler, but not terribly high. Keep in mind that Alden is using oak bark, the most expensive for the sole and heels. Also, it makes an English heel which is a bit more laborious than a regular heel. I understand that they throw-in a new box, shoe bags, heel pads, and any other necessary trimmings and finishings.

The alleged advantage to using the factory is that the shoes will rest on the original lasts for a few weeks. This will help restore the shape. You will not get this at the local cobbler no matter how skilled. Also, the shoes will look almost exactly the same as new in that the soles and heel pads will have the company logo. 

I personally use my local shoemaker who does an excellent job for about $100 or so for oak bark soles and heels. I don't need a logo on my heel pad, and I do not want to pay the shipping costs.

Good luck.


----------



## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

This issue has me curious. If demand is too great, Alden should hire more employees. Sure there is a lack of skilled labor, but if there is a great need, you hire and train people to do these jobs. Someone needs to tell this New England company that Larry Bird and Kevin McHale are not walking back through that door.


----------



## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Bandit44 said:


> This issue has me curious. If demand is too great, Alden should hire more employees. Sure there is a lack of skilled labor, but if there is a great need, you hire and train people to do these jobs. Someone needs to tell this New England company that Larry Bird and Kevin McHale are not walking back through that door.


I'm going to toss out the following theory in regards to Alden and the costs and delays.
Costs, material and labor costs have been going up, they raised prices on all their products across the board.
Delays, there is supposedly a resurgence in men's wear, chances are they are getting hit by this as well. If the majority of the business is new sales do you go after those during a surge or hold off on some repairs? I'd move someone off the repair line and get them making new shoes. Training - you don't hire a guy off the street and put them to work cranking out shoes, it takes a bit (most likely it takes a good bit before you can have them doing skilled hands on work). You also don't want to hire and train someone if the growth isn't long term. Imagine you spend a year training someone, they are finally up to speed, and you have no use for them at the end of the year.


----------



## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Alden is a conservatively run company, and this strategy has helped keep the doors open when other shoe manufacturers closed their doors.
There is nothing wrong with keeping production capacity limited. This helps quality control, creates demand for the product, and gives Alden strong pricing power.



Bandit44 said:


> This issue has me curious. If demand is too great, Alden should hire more employees. Sure there is a lack of skilled labor, but if there is a great need, you hire and train people to do these jobs. Someone needs to tell this New England company that Larry Bird and Kevin McHale are not walking back through that door.


----------



## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

Bandit44 said:


> This issue has me curious. If demand is too great, Alden should hire more employees. Sure there is a lack of skilled labor, but if there is a great need, you hire and train people to do these jobs. Someone needs to tell this New England company that Larry Bird and Kevin McHale are not walking back through that door.


Not so fast. You can't just "hire and train people" to do whatever job you want them to do. You need to find people who are both capable and willing to do the work. In this day and age, those people, like Larry Bird and Kevin McHale, are not walking back through that door.


----------



## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

I disagree. You can hire good people, train them with new skills; this idea that there simply aren't any good workers out there is hogwash. When demand for services increases to the point where people are waiting 8-10 weeks for restoration, that shows a deficiency in the business. People have been complaining about Alden restoration services as long as I've been a member here. While I appreciate when companies operate close to the margin, the op raised the question whether or not Alden is turning away business by with their inadequate customer service. I think they will if they don't rectify some of these problems.

Not to turn this into a AE vs Alden thread, but AE recently hired over a hundred new workers and has invested in training that workforce. Obviously these are different companies with different circumstances, but I wouldn't hesitate to send a pair of AE back to the manufacturer for restoration. Sorry if I am criticizing the sacred cow here, but Alden has their head in the sand.


----------



## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Yes, I suspect they do want to be out of the shoe repair business. I suspect they only offer it because their competitors do too and as their prices approach quality English shoe prices, they need to be seen to offer this service. I doubt it's a high margin business, though they may be grateful for it when their sales decline.

It will be interesting to see how Alden does when this bubble bursts - and it will burst. All this "Indy Boot" nonsense will go away, and J Crew and stores of its ilk will stop offering Aldens because the trend has passed, and all the hip, young things will decide they're passe (and Alden can once again become "old man shoes"), etc. and all Alden will be left with are the customers they always had who want traditional American shoes. Will people really still be willing to pay their prices as they increase faster than wages or inflation, i.e. in the last decade approx. 5% every year? And will Alden be able to raise its prices on a shrinking customer base once the trendy set moves on? Let's face it, expensive, leather soled shoes are becoming an anachronism; fewer and fewer people have to wear them (I haven't been required to wear a suit in well over a decade now) and a good portion of the people who do wear them are wearing them because of fashion blogs and magazines - the longwings with rolled dark blue jeans look (and other associated fads) is going to go the way of leisure suits, Nehru jackets, parachute pants and acid washed denim as the fashion victims move on to the next "classic" look. One hopes that Alden is using its increased revenues to try and develop some efficiencies, where it can, because I don't think raising prices on shoes and related services at a rate faster than inflation, every single year, is a business model that can lead to long-term sustainability.

For being a "superb" product - as one poster described them - I sure wish Alden would take the time and spend the money to develop an eyelet that doesn't chip/shed paint so readily.


----------



## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Allen Edmonds ownership is focused on growth. Increasing production capacity, more retail distribution, volume sales etc...
Alden has the opposite mentality. Limited capacity and tightly controlled retail distribution.
Two completely different companies with opposite mindsets. I prefer Alden's style.



Bandit44 said:


> I disagree. You can hire good people, train them with new skills; this idea that there simply aren't any good workers out there is hogwash. When demand for services increases to the point where people are waiting 8-10 weeks for restoration, that shows a deficiency in the business. People have been complaining about Alden restoration services as long as I've been a member here. While I appreciate when companies operate close to the margin, the op raised the question whether or not Alden is turning away business by with their inadequate customer service. I think they will if they don't rectify some of these problems.
> 
> Not to turn this into a AE vs Alden thread, but AE recently hired over a hundred new workers and has invested in training that workforce. Obviously these are different companies with different circumstances, but I wouldn't hesitate to send a pair of AE back to the manufacturer for restoration. Sorry if I am criticizing the sacred cow here, but Alden has their head in the sand.


----------



## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

mrp said:


> I'm going to toss out the following theory in regards to Alden and the costs and delays.
> Costs, material and labor costs have been going up, _*they raised prices on all their products across the board*_.
> Delays, there is supposedly a resurgence in men's wear, chances are they are getting hit by this as well. If the majority of the business is new sales do you go after those during a surge or hold off on some repairs? I'd move someone off the repair line and get them making new shoes. Training - you don't hire a guy off the street and put them to work cranking out shoes, it takes a bit (most likely it takes a good bit before you can have them doing skilled hands on work). You also don't want to hire and train someone if the growth isn't long term. Imagine you spend a year training someone, they are finally up to speed, and you have no use for them at the end of the year.


They raise prices by a set percentage every year.


----------



## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

DG123 said:


> Alden is a conservatively run company, and this strategy has helped keep the doors open when other shoe manufacturers closed their doors.
> There is nothing wrong with keeping production capacity limited. _*This helps quality control*_, creates demand for the product, and gives Alden strong pricing power.


:biggrin:


----------



## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Epaminondas said:


> Yes, I suspect they do want to be out of the shoe repair business. I suspect they only offer it because their competitors do too and as their prices approach quality English shoe prices, they need to be seen to offer this service. I doubt it's a high margin business, though they may be grateful for it when their sales decline.
> 
> * * *


Shoe repair (or "restoration" if you want to get fancy) carries a low margin. It is an "acommodation" or service to its customers.

Generally, shoe repair is done by a local shops staffed by immigrants. It used to be a heavily Italian and Greek trade. Now, in New York City, the Italians may be the owners, but the workers are South and Central Americans. Often, staff is paid the minimum hourly rate except for a senior craftsman. Also, the workers have no health insurance or other fringe benefits. In comparison, Alden probably pays a higher labor rate and is probably a union shop.

Therefore, it is likely that due to overhead, labor rates, and fringe benefits, Alden shoe repair makes less money on a pair of shoes than a local cobbler charging less.


----------



## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

son of brummell said:


> Shoe repair (or "restoration" if you want to get fancy) carries a low margin. It is an "acommodation" or service to its customers.
> 
> Generally, shoe repair is done by a local shops staffed by immigrants. It used to be a heavily Italian and Greek trade. Now, in New York City, the Italians may be the owners, but the workers are South and Central Americans. Often, staff is paid the minimum hourly rate except for a senior craftsman. Also, the workers have no health insurance or other fringe benefits. In comparison, Alden probably pays a higher labor rate and is probably a union shop.
> 
> Therefore, it is likely that due to overhead, labor rates, and fringe benefits, Alden shoe repair makes less money on a pair of shoes than a local cobbler charging less.


Alden is a union shop.


----------



## JoshESQ (Sep 20, 2010)

Does anyone know if Allen Edmonds will restore Aldens? My gut says no, but if Alden stinks I would like to find another restoration shop that will re-cork and all.


----------



## Sharpe (Apr 20, 2010)

Nope AE only does AE shoes.


----------



## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

DG123 said:


> You could switch to another brand, but the shoe quality will not be as good as Alden.


This statement *highly subjective* and therefore cannot be considered fact. In my opinion this statement is 100% unadulterated bologna.

I like my Alden shoes in many respects but to say that other manufacture's quality of not as good as Alden is just plain incorrect. There are many manufactures who make superior quality shoes and very few people in the know would dispute this.

It would be far closer to the truth to say that *for the money* Alden's quality is a good as any. However, as the owner of many pairs of Alden shoes as well as Allen Edmonds, I can say that the quality of each manufacturer is equal. (that is my opinion but unlike the post I've quoted it would be ridiculous for me to imply that my opinion is fact)


----------



## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> This statement *highly subjective* and therefore cannot be considered fact. In my opinion this statement is 100% unadulterated bologna.
> 
> I like my Alden shoes in many respects but to say that other manufacture's quality of not as good as Alden is just plain incorrect. There are many manufactures who make superior quality shoes and very few people in the know would dispute this.
> 
> It would be far closer to the truth to say that *for the money* Alden's quality is a good as any. However, as the owner of many pairs of Alden shoes as well as Allen Edmonds, I can say that the quality of each manufacturer is equal. (that is my opinion but unlike the post I've quoted it would be ridiculous for me to imply that my opinion is fact)


I'm not even sure it's true that for the money Alden can't be beat. There are many many nice shoes in the world. Carmina shell seems to be about the same price as Alden. They are just impossible for me to try on prior to purchasing. Vass is another maker that isn't too much more expensive than Alden's current ~$700 price, and there shoes are better made with actual hand crafting.


----------



## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

joenobody0 said:


> I'm not even sure it's true that for the money Alden can't be beat. There are many many nice shoes in the world. Carmina shell seems to be about the same price as Alden. They are just impossible for me to try on prior to purchasing. Vass is another maker that isn't too much more expensive than Alden's current ~$700 price, and there shoes are better made with actual hand crafting.


I admit that I haven't purchased a pair of Shells from Alden in a year or two but I had no idea that they had gone to $700.-,.... I quickly scanned ShoeMart's Alden section and it looks like you can get their long heavy wings, (model 975) for $610.-

I do however see your point.


----------



## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> I admit that I haven't purchased a pair of Shells from Alden in a year or two but I had no idea that they had gone to $700.-,.... I quickly scanned ShoeMart's Alden section and it looks like you can get their long heavy wings, (model 975) for $610.-
> 
> I do however see your point.


I was thinking something more like this:
https://www.alden-of-carmel.com/index.cfm/Shoes-Whiskey_282.htm

$715.

I paid over $600 for my Whiskey and Ravello NSTs around two years ago.

On edit it looks like the Whiskey longwings are $680 at Shoemart so AOC is a little overpriced.


----------



## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

joenobody0 said:


> I was thinking something more like this:
> https://www.alden-of-carmel.com/index.cfm/Shoes-Whiskey_282.htm
> 
> $715.
> ...


Alden NY on Madison Ave. told me that all of their non-standard shell models are $680. The variation at AoC looks to me to be based on perceptions of rarity.


----------



## adirondaki (Jan 8, 2004)

A lot of good posts here, a good discussion. Many thanks.

What has me flummoxed by my experience is two things really: 1) the CHANGE in the amount of time the restoration now takes and 2) the indifference I seem to encounter from Alden.

I do buy the argument that perhaps they are caught in a crunch -- that perhaps demand for new shoes has gone up again and slotting restorations into the production line is now harder. What I find puzzling, though, is matching that up to my previous experience. When the economy wasn't bad, as it is now, shouldn't the demand for Alden shoes have been higher? And, thus, shouldn't it have taken LONGER to get my shoes repaired in, say, 2006? But the reverse is the case: it now takes more than twice as long as it did then. Perhaps -- and I am totally speculating here -- they laid people off when the economy tanked. I buy the argument that this is probably pretty skilled labor -- you cannot do a quick hire off the street. But, if they had lay-offs in, say, 2008, when the economy tanked, and demand has now increased, shouldn't they be able to re-hire trained people? Maybe, as DR123 claimed, they intentionally keep production capacity low so as to boost quality and keep demand; however, in a sales environment where the restoration service is a selling point, at the point where you cannot return a customer's restored shoes in over 2 months, is that really a pathway to "demand"? 

And that goes to my other issue: customer service. I like my Alden shoes; I think they're a quality product; I own several pairs, some of which are replacement for previous Alden shoes. I think that's a show of loyalty by me as a customer. Yet, in my interactions with Alden, I have felt nothing but indifference. I have contacted them about my shoes; I didn't find them particularly prompt to respond, and I never heard a word of sympathy, much less of apology, or even an acknowledgement that taking over 2 months might be an inconvenience to me. Shoes aren't durable goods, in the classic sense; I am no expert on world of shoe retailing, but I would speculate that people buy new shoes for reason of fashion and taste, and to replace old shoes. If Alden is demonstrating indifference to me as a customer, how can that be a good strategy (remember, we're talking about shoes that cost north of $600...)?


----------



## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

Bandit44 said:


> I disagree. You can hire good people, train them with new skills; this idea that there simply aren't any good workers out there is hogwash.


I'm not going to belabor the point, but you are, quite simply, mistaken. The state of our nation's economy supports what I've said (as does this elongated waiting period for shoe restoration at Alden, frankly). For an extreme example, read this article from earlier in the month. It's not a simple matter of hiring 'good people' and 'training,' as you seem to suggest. You need to find competent people who can do that work at the price at which you need them to. That is the challenge and it's not an easy battle to win.


----------



## Sharpe (Apr 20, 2010)

PMRuby said:


> I'm not going to belabor the point, but you are, quite simply, mistaken. The state of our nation's economy supports what I've said (as does this elongated waiting period for shoe restoration at Alden, frankly). For an extreme example, read this article from earlier in the month. It's not a simple matter of hiring 'good people' and 'training,' as you seem to suggest. You need to find competent people who can do that work at the price at which you need them to. That is the challenge and it's not an easy battle to win.


PMRuby I am sorry but I find the article verses working in a factory to be apples and oranges (pun intended). Where some basic farm work has a very low training time and a seasonal hiring time frame it just doesn't compare to working on a line in a high end shoe company. You are right that you can't just hire someone off the street and put them on the line, it takes months if not years to train someone but that is something the company has to do themselves.

I would think that if Alden is pushed to capacity they would hire people to work in the Refurbishing factory as a training ground and as the aging work force starts to retire they can easily shift people who have been trained already into the line. I find it hard to believe that demand for Refurbishing will go down so it is unlikely these people will really be without some work for the company.

Now this is just my opinion, I have no say in Aldens long term strategies or the age of their work force but personally I like the fact that Allen Edmonds is hiring people, expanding and keeping my Recrafts for only a few weeks.

Also a great article to see that this can be done is https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/13/business/with-chevrolet-sonic-gm-and-uaw-reinvent-automaking.html.


----------



## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Back in 2006 , and prior to that, Alden shoes were consumed by business men looking wanting traditional , sturdy, American made footwear.
Those business men are still around. Add to that the hipsters wearing jeans and Alden longwings with no socks, and you have a shortage of supply for the Alden brand.
Regarding restoration, this service takes a back seat to new product production. To offset the long restoration delay, an Alden fan must buy more new pairs so that he does not miss the pair which is gone for two months awaiting restoration. This is good business for Alden.
As for "customer service indifference", if you mean a company telephone receptionist who does not symathize with a customers frustration, every Alden employee knows the production order backlog is full. When business is strong employees develop an arrogant attitude. That is human nature.



adirondaki said:


> A lot of good posts here, a good discussion. Many thanks.
> 
> What has me flummoxed by my experience is two things really: 1) the CHANGE in the amount of time the restoration now takes and 2) the indifference I seem to encounter from Alden.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

So that makes it okay to act that way?


----------



## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Jovan said:


> So that makes it okay to act that way?


Only if it's Alden. :crazy:

The trend followers will go, there's no doubt about that. On the other hand, will the regular customers come back after they've been forced to find other sources? Who knows.


----------



## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Sharpe said:


> I would think that if Alden is pushed to capacity they would hire people to work in the Refurbishing factory as a training ground and as the aging work force starts to retire they can easily shift people who have been trained already into the line. I find it hard to believe that demand for Refurbishing will go down so it is unlikely these people will really be without some work for the company.


I've never refurbished a pair of Alden's I have taken a pair of good year welted boots apart at one time in my life to see how they were made (military surplus). You really don't want to put an untrained worker on the task of refurbishing shoes, if they screw this up the company is handing over a pair of new shoes. My guess is new workers are started out boxing and lacing, they move up to cutting leather (not shell) out with the stamps in a prescribed layout, move on to doing some simple assembly of pieces and parts.


----------



## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

Sharpe, you're right that farm work and shoe work are dissimilar. The point remains, though - there's just a lot of work that cannot feasibly be done by American workers these days at the prices employers need it done at.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

joenobody0 said:


> Only if it's Alden. :crazy:
> 
> The trend followers will go, there's no doubt about that. On the other hand, will the regular customers come back after they've been forced to find other sources? Who knows.


Stuff like this always makes me wonder if Alden is worth the increase in price over AE. I was especially disheartened by YoungClayB's story...


----------



## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Stuff like this always makes me wonder if Alden is worth the increase in price over AE. I was especially disheartened by YoungClayB's story...


That was truly horrible CS.


----------



## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

Does it seem to anyone else that the amount of controversy generated by any concerns about Alden's products and service is itself indicative of a problem? I don't hear anyone questioning Crockett and Jones, say, or see anyone rushing so passionately to their defense if anyone does so. I really find this odd. Alden makes high quality ready-to-wear shoes, like a dozen or so other shoemakers worldwide. They are not John Lobb or E. Vogel. I admire their decisions not explore lower end lines, as AE and most good English shoemakers have, and I respect the measures they have to take to uphold this decision (which includes reduced service and availability). But it is truly perplexing to me that consumers backform from these supply side solutions a notion that Alden's standard RTW shoes are any better than their competitors' by virtue of the solutions themselves.


----------



## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Stuff like this always makes me wonder if Alden is worth the increase in price over AE...


No, they're not - at least, not in my opinion. I have 20+ pairs of Aldens mostly because of their range of styles in shell cordovan, which AE doesn't match. For calfskin, given an equivalent style, I'd always favor AE. AE truly stands behind their product - I have no presonal experience, but based on postings over at SF, it seems that Alden treats their customers with a certain amount of, at best, indifference and more likely contempt.


----------



## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

PMRuby said:


> Sharpe, you're right that farm work and shoe work are dissimilar. The point remains, though - there's just a lot of work that cannot feasibly be done by American workers these days at the prices employers need it done at.


Citing a story on the decrease in the exploitation of migrant workers as an example of no longer being able to find "competent people who can do that work at the price at which you need them to" illustrates how far apart we are in our views of work and workers in the U.S.


----------



## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

PMRuby said:


> Sharpe, you're right that farm work and shoe work are dissimilar. The point remains, though - there's just a lot of work that cannot feasibly be done by American workers these days at the prices employers need it done at.


Not to get too far off topic, but at some point a more complex calculus has to be employed here.

Containerized shipping is enormously expensive. So, too, is and maintaining distribution hubs in CONUS for the receipt of containerized materials. So, too, is the legal expertise necessary for negotiating trade regulations on both ends. Layers of management emerge in response, which we have come to accept as inevitable.

So many of the labor costs saved by overseas manufacture are passed along to management, not the consumer (how many products are really cheaper now, relatively speaking, since manufacture was exported?).

A Florsheim Imperial Kenwoor costs about $200 as opposed to AE and Alden versions in the $350 range. If the products were comparable we could say that exporting manufacture saves the consumer 30-50%, but this is not what happened. Along with the exportation of manufacture came the surreptitious substitution of lower quality materials and lower production standards. Those were decisions made by management, for certainly Indians and Sir Lankans and Mexicans are capable of making good things from good materials and take the same pleasure in good works as all people. Human hands and human pride work pretty much the same wherever you go. Florsheim rolled a vast reduction of quality into a supposed effort to cut labor costs and passed those savings along to its own managers and investors. The reduction of quality has little at all to do with labor costs but with a business model aimed at seeking out the minimum acceptable product people will pay for and maximizing executive rewards within that constraint.

If AE or Alden asked their shoemakers in Wisconsin or Massachusetts to kick out some corrected grain shoes hastily, with more hidden cardboard, and with lower production standards, I bet they would cost . . . what? . . . about $200?


----------



## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Jovan said:


> Stuff like this always makes me wonder if Alden is worth the increase in price over AE. I was especially disheartened by YoungClayB's story...


If I had been in YGB's position I would have taken Alden up on the repair, vs worrying one recrafting in the lifetime of the shoes. As much as he was shining them he was going to wear out the uppers first. :biggrin:
Keep in mind, I'm on a 10 month waiting list for a pair of Whiskey gunboats.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Angeland said:


> Does it seem to anyone else that the amount of controversy generated by any concerns about Alden's products and service is itself indicative of a problem? I don't hear anyone questioning Crockett and Jones, say, or see anyone rushing so passionately to their defense if anyone does so. I really find this odd. Alden makes high quality ready-to-wear shoes, like a dozen or so other shoemakers worldwide. They are not John Lobb or E. Vogel. I admire their decisions not explore lower end lines, as AE and most good English shoemakers have, and I respect the measures they have to take to uphold this decision (which includes reduced service and availability). But it is truly perplexing to me that consumers backform from these supply side solutions a notion that Alden's standard RTW shoes are any better than their competitors' by virtue of the solutions themselves.


:devil: The seemingly rabid, ever increasing, never ceasing Japanese demand for Alden shoes is the driver behind Alden's production crew being put in the position of always chasing their octogenarial tails. There seems no comparable level of demand for John Lobbs, E Vogel's creations or even for our own AE creations. And if you think we here in the good old US of A are paying a premium price for our beloved Aldens, Take a look at the prices on the Japanese markets! Is it suprising to anyone that Aldens focus's their production effort on the markets that represent the greatest potential profit?


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

That still doesn't make it okay to treat their U.S. customers as a hindrance.


----------



## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

mrp said:


> If I had been in YGB's position I would have taken Alden up on the repair, vs worrying one recrafting in the lifetime of the shoes. As much as he was shining them he was going to wear out the uppers first. :biggrin:
> _*Keep in mind, I'm on a 10 month waiting list for a pair of Whiskey gunboats*_.


Would you feel like waiting another 10+ months if your shoes show up with obvious flaws that should have been caught by QC? Any person that needs to special order Aldens due to the meager stocked sizes potentially faces this issue.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Alden of Carmel has Alden whiskey shell cordovan gunboats in stock, if you are seeking such in a D or E width.



Jovan said:


> That still doesn't make it okay to treat their U.S. customers as a hindrance.


No it certainly does not, but it might to a significant degree be the cause of the extreme delays US customers seem to be experiencing. Just thinkin! :icon_scratch:


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

At least they're not charging triple what they did a few years ago because the Japanese will buy it at that price.


----------



## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

My guess is that Alden is well aware of the Alden bubble in popularity. It makes no sense to invest capital, hiring and training to increase production for a few seasons only to see demand fall off the table when fashion shifts elsewhere. This would explain the long wait for restoration service. They're simply not staffed and equipped for the current order demand.


----------



## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

I don't own Aldens because I've found AE, Crockett & Jones and other shoe makers meet my needs, often at a lower price.

I've seen Aldens in person and thrifted a few to flip, so I understand their allure.

From reading this forum and from the prices used Aldens fetch on eBay, it seems like that shoe brand has a cult following. Alden seems to know that.

From what I've read, Alden is like the "Soup Nazi" of shoes. You don't like something? Tough. No shoes for you! Next!

I don't know if the demand for Aldens is really that high, or if they simply know that creating a false sense of demand by making customers wait months for a pair of shoes will make their product even more desirable.

Have you ever been to an Olive Garden restaurant that was half empty, yet they still made you wait 15 minutes for a table? Have you seen those informercials where they say: "supplies are limited" or "for a limited time only"?

I think Alden might be employing the same tactic, to some extent. Making customers wait gives the impression that there is more demand than product, therefore customers rush to get the product before it runs out, or before the price increases.

I don't know about you. But it's not like I see a bunch of men all over the place wearing Aldens. Heck, I don't believe I've ever seen anyone in person wearing shoes I recognized as Aldens. In reality, how many men outside of AAAC do you know that are willing to pay even $200 for a pair of shoes? How about over $600?

When I've been to the Alden store in SF, it's usually empty, with maybe one more customer browsing. I did see what seemed to be a group of Japanese tourists once trying on some shell models.

So, what I'm trying to say is, I don't think they have such a demand for their shoes that they are backlogged for months. But if you really want a pair -- or you want your pair refurbished -- you'll pay whatever they want, and what as long as you have to in order to get what you want. Plus, you'll appreciate them more if they make you wait a few months for them.


----------



## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

joenobody0 said:


> Would you feel like waiting another 10+ months if your shoes show up with obvious flaws that should have been caught by QC? Any person that needs to special order Aldens due to the meager stocked sizes potentially faces this issue.


Let me clarify, my size is a C width so it is not an off the shelf item. It's a custom order, I won't be billed until the shoes are delivered via Shoemart.
I may be down to 6 months at this point.
From memory:
YC got his shoes, wore them for a bit, a flaw developed (welt area) and he opted not to go with the rework, wanting a new pair. His AE pair arrived with an obvious flaw that was not caught by QC (shoes were not mirrored left to right). As mentioned I would have taken Alden up on the rework.

Would I be happy that I'd have to wait, I wouldn't get emotional over it, it is what it is. I've had a custom pair of AE's (not normally made in my size) that had a flaw, AE took care of the problem, I still had to wait.

I'm not an Alden fanboy, I buy depending on the last (AE, Alden, etc. If I have to wait so be it, maybe I'm just used to waiting. I'm waiting for a pair of brown shell strands from AE. It won't be 10 months (larger manufacturer and brown is easier than whiskey) but I'm still waiting.

Bottom line, I can't say that I've had a bad experience with either company. They were up front with the OP and let him know that there would be a delay on the card. At the time of the posting we are still within the 10 week rework/shipping time frame.


----------



## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Alden of Carmel has Alden whiskey shell cordovan gunboats in stock, if you are seeking such in a D or E width.
> 
> No it certainly does not, but it might to a significant degree be the cause of the extreme delays US customers seem to be experiencing. Just thinkin! :icon_scratch:


Unfortunately I'm a solid C, the good thing is they will make them if you ask the right folks.

I've posted the same theory, folks are taking the delay as if Alden is purposely delaying as a conspiracy to get out of the business. A bit less emotion, and more understanding patience might go a long way.


----------



## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Your analogy of comparing Alden's production delays to waiting for a table at Olive Garden is comical.
Alden retail dealers, including the Alden company owned San Francisco store, are walking customers left and right because of Alden's long delay in producing and maintaining inventory of even basic core styles.
The company has a significant backlog of production orders but only limited capacity, so retail dealers and retail customers must wait for their shoes.



triklops55 said:


> I don't own Aldens because I've found AE, Crockett & Jones and other shoe makers meet my needs, often at a lower price.
> 
> I've seen Aldens in person and thrifted a few to flip, so I understand their allure.
> 
> ...


----------



## Benson (Aug 28, 2009)

I've a number of pairs of Aldens and having lived in SF for many years spent a good deal of time coveting others. Now that I live in Spain, I feel inclined to say that Carmina shoes cost the same (and that is with an unfavorable exchange rate), are made on more elegant lasts (an opinion, sure, but I challenge anyone to suggest otherwise), are made as well or better (they seem, in fact, closer to C&J handgrades to me, though I've nothing to substantiate this claim), and I've not seen a single second parading as a first in Carmina, unlike in Alden SF and NY, where I've seen them in abundance, particularly in the welt. I was in one of the Madrid shops the other day and I was told if you call the shop in Malaga, they will ship anywhere, though you may have to convince them to drop the VAT, or IVA as it is called here. It seems they've an online shop that is coming together, too. Again, I love and still buy Alden shoes, but they've more suitable competition than it seems.


----------



## roncoleman (Jul 18, 2011)

*Did Alden pull the trigger on restoration?*

It sure looks as if Alden *does* want out of the restoration business, because the "Restoration" link is not to be found on their website any more!

I emailed an inquiry but I'm not optimistic...


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If they get rid of that business, they may as well count themselves out of business altogether!


----------



## roncoleman (Jul 18, 2011)

Why so? They get a pretty penny for cobbling the stuff together and getting it out the door. Is restoration a profit center for them? Someone earlier in the thread said (like during the first Bush Administration or something) that this is a customer accommodation for them, not a money-maker.

I'll say this much: They don't seem too motivated. No response to my email yet, and I got an answering machine when I phoned... :icon_pale:


----------



## mikeh (Feb 18, 2011)

roncoleman said:


> Why so? They get a pretty penny for cobbling the stuff together and getting it out the door. Is restoration a profit center for them? Someone earlier in the thread said (like during the first Bush Administration or something) that this is a customer accommodation for them, not a money-maker.
> 
> I'll say this much: They don't seem too motivated. No response to my email yet, and I got an answering machine when I phoned... :icon_pale:


I think what he means is that eliminating restoration would eliminate a lot of the appeal of buying Aldens. Being able to have them restored at the factory is a significant motivator, and failing that their competitors would be far more attractive. Most likely would not affect the J.Crew type bubble, but would be a problem on the "American businessman" part of their base. They will need that to fall back on when the "bubble" bursts.

Then again, I'm just a humanities academic spouting business model opinions, so most likely best to ignore me!


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

That's precisely what I meant, thank you mikeh.

That said, I've never seen the appeal of Alden vs. Allen Edmonds as they don't seem to care as much about customer relations and the quality seems about the same. However, I know they have their fans here. I'm sure they and all the other people who want a shoe with longevity (instead of the J. Crew types just buying because it's hip "American heritage") are going to be disappointed if they truly have gotten rid of it.


----------



## meister (Oct 29, 2005)

Epaminondas said:


> Yes, I suspect they do want to be out of the shoe repair business. I suspect they only offer it because their competitors do too and as their prices approach quality English shoe prices, they need to be seen to offer this service. I doubt it's a high margin business, though they may be grateful for it when their sales decline.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how Alden does when this bubble bursts - and it will burst. All this "Indy Boot" nonsense will go away, and J Crew and stores of its ilk will stop offering Aldens because the trend has passed, and all the hip, young things will decide they're passe (and Alden can once again become "old man shoes"), etc. and all Alden will be left with are the customers they always had who want traditional American shoes. Will people really still be willing to pay their prices as they increase faster than wages or inflation, i.e. in the last decade approx. 5% every year? And will Alden be able to raise its prices on a shrinking customer base once the trendy set moves on? Let's face it, expensive, leather soled shoes are becoming an anachronism; fewer and fewer people have to wear them (I haven't been required to wear a suit in well over a decade now) and a good portion of the people who do wear them are wearing them because of fashion blogs and magazines - the longwings with rolled dark blue jeans look (and other associated fads) is going to go the way of leisure suits, Nehru jackets, parachute pants and acid washed denim as the fashion victims move on to the next "classic" look. One hopes that Alden is using its increased revenues to try and develop some efficiencies, where it can, because I don't think raising prices on shoes and related services at a rate faster than inflation, every single year, is a business model that can lead to long-term sustainability.
> 
> For being a "superb" product - as one poster described them - I sure wish Alden would take the time and spend the money to develop an eyelet that doesn't chip/shed paint so readily.


You pretty well summed it up. Alden is being called upon by all these niche manufacturers to do these rugged made in America stuff. Will it last or is it a passing fad?


----------

