# Shane MacGowen



## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

To my UK colleagues, what is with the seemingly unconditional love for Shane MacGowen? 

I was youtubing the song "Partin' Glass" and stumbled on Mr MacGowen's performance. He appeared to be totally plastered. In performances of other songs, specifically of "Fairytale of NY," he appears to be in various states of inebriation. His vocals are incomprehensible, he sways to-and-fro, and yet everyone around him acts as if nothing is wrong. He's a physical wreak. What is going on with this? He seems to be killing himself, and everyone around him is cheering him on.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

As a friend of Bill's, he is painful to watch. Alcohol is a subtle foe... cunning, baffling, and powerful.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Every decade needs it's Brendan Behan. After Brendan died we had Richard Harris and Peter O'Toole and George Best and Alex Higgins. 

The irony is that back in the '90s Sinead OConnor, then a close friend, reported Shane's severe drug habit to the police hoping that he'd be arrested and thus saving his life, but far from him or anyone else thanking her, she just got slagged off by Shane's "friends" for grassing him up to the rozzers.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> He seems to be killing himself, and everyone around him is cheering him on.


Unfortunately this is what can happen, and if they tried to save him from himself it probably wouldn't work anyway.

I expect most people can think of someone they know personally whose life has been, if not ruined, at least impaired in a serious way by substance abuse. Some alcoholics recover, but it's very difficult.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

BTW, I'm glad this isn't what I was afeared it might be, following the Greatest Dead Irishman and Greatest Living American threads i.e. the Greatest Living Irishman 

Because Shane wouldn't even make the top 100!

Greatest Almost Dead Irishman, he'd be in the top 10 at least.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> BTW, I'm glad this isn't what I was afeared it might be, following the Greatest Dead Irishman and Greatest Living American threads i.e. the Greatest Living Irishman


Yeah, please don't do that.... Seriously....!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> Yeah, please don't do that.... Seriously....!


Dont worry mate, I have no intention of so doing and I hope no one else has either.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

When I hear Shane MacGow*a*n sing "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" or "A Rainy Night in Soho" - both gorgeous songs - I can forget the sorry state he's become and love him for his raw talent.

Incidentally, he did later go on to thank Sinead O'Connor for shopping him - he attributed it to him finally kicking heroin. I see his Shane and missus from time to time as they live near where I work - and we've had them in our office for a few different things over the years. They are both great supporters of my charity. He still takes a drink and smokes a lot but the word is he's off the hard(illegal) stuff - his body can't take it. He's also more lucid and coherent in real life - his nerves get to him when on stage or on camera and medicates(legally) to calm the anxiety. (My CEO is very well connected and he tells these stories at our meetings...!)


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> When I hear Shane MacGow*a*n sing "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" or "A Rainy Night in Soho" - both gorgeous songs - I can forget the sorry state he's become and love him for his raw talent.


Exactly, me too.

I saw him with The Pogues as the big name support band at Madstock 2009, just about 30 mins before Madness came on.

He came on looking like the ghost of Brendan Behan, much heavier, eye patch, even fewer teeth, in a grey suit, no tie, smoking, drinking, and singing like a god!


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Langham said:


> Some alcoholics recover, but it's very difficult.


An alcoholic is never fully recovered. Sobriety is not a destination... it's a journey.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

To me MacGowan is mainly one of the most gifted lyricists of his generation. Whether or not he drinks and shoots up is none of my business and the singing voice is something he shares with the greatest lyricist of today, Tom Waits.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Belfaborac said:


> To me MacGowan is mainly one of the most gifted lyricists of his generation. Whether or not he drinks and shoots up is none of my business and the singing voice is something he shares with the greatest lyricist of today, Tom Waits.


I'll take your word of his writing prowess as I cannot understand a word he is singing...


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Every decade needs it's Brendan Behan. After Brendan died we had Richard Harris and Peter O'Toole and George Best and Alex Higgins.
> 
> The irony is that back in the '90s Sinead OConnor, then a close friend, reported Shane's severe drug habit to the police hoping that he'd be arrested and thus saving his life, but far from him or anyone else thanking her, she just got slagged off by Shane's "friends" for grassing him up to the rozzers.


Sinead and Shane's version of "Haunted" is an interesting song. Very poppish, but Sinead's lyrics are sung very unusually...the effect is almost hypnotic.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I'll take your word of his writing prowess as I cannot understand a word he is singing...


More often than not when certain British or Irish movies are shown in the US, the audience there require subtitles. The Commitments and Trainspotting are good examples. Or maybe you're just not 'doing it right'....


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Sinead and Shane's version of "Haunted" is an interesting song. Very poppish, but Sinead's lyrics are sung very unusually...the effect is almost hypnotic.


She was also at her most gorgeous in the video. I mean really, really beautiful.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Every decade needs it's Brendan Behan. After Brendan died we had Richard Harris and Peter O'Toole and George Best and Alex Higgins.


Would you say public intoxication is more culturally accepted in the UK than in the US?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

VictorRomeo said:


> More often than not when certain British or Irish movies are shown in the US, the audience there require subtitles. The Commitments and Trainspotting are good examples. Or maybe you're just not 'doing it right'....


Trainspotting needs subtitles? Gait tae Falkirk, ya wee scunner. Ye daffy heid the baw. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

VictorRomeo said:


> More often than not when certain British or Irish movies are shown in the US, the audience there require subtitles. The Commitments and Trainspotting are good examples. Or maybe you're just not 'doing it right'....


You're probably right. I'm sure if it were 2am, with a case of empty Guinnesses bottles strewn on the floor along with a half-eaten pizza, a Pogues LP playing on 10, and the neighbors banging on the door threatening to call the police, Shane would make better sense.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> BTW, I'm glad this isn't what I was afeared it might be, following the Greatest Dead Irishman and Greatest Living American threads i.e. the Greatest Living Irishman


I was tempted...


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

VictorRomeo said:


> She was also at her most gorgeous in the video. I mean really, really beautiful.


Totally agree. She is a goddess in that video.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Would you say public intoxication is more culturally accepted in the UK than in the US?


It certainly seems to be prevalent among the young (I mean 18-25) in the UK on Saturday nights out, although I detect some recent decline in public tolerance for this more generally. I can't say how this compares with the US, but a comparison of our much more liberal licensing laws with those in most states is an indication.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> She was also at her most gorgeous in the video. I mean really, really beautiful.


Absolutely, for me the most beautiful Irish woman ever!! I saw her a couple of times around Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove and Bayswater back when she lived off Westbourne Grove.....in what? late 80s early 90s?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Define Irish. Shane McGowan was born in Kent and brought up in London, attending Westminster School. His parents were from Tipperary.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Totally agree. She is a goddess in that video.


She's not aged very well. This was her last year.




And last month




Depressing isn't it.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

MacGowan is authentic. In a world awash with inspid manufactured commercial pap masquerading as music (Yes, Coldplay you would do well to hang your heads in shame) we require more honesty. 

I would force all popular musicians to booze and take drugs for a decade before they were allowed to record a single note.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Chouan said:


> Define Irish. Shane McGowan was born in Kent and brought up in London, attending Westminster School. His parents were from Tipperary.


He has 2 Irish parents that makes him Irish.

To be exact: After he was born his family moved to Tipperary, then back to south east England when he was 6½.

Irish? = Irish parents...end of list.

Irish grandparents removed from Irish nationality law in the 80s
Being born in Ireland removed from Irish nationality law in the 00s

Place of birth, as is in many countries now is irrelevant. We went over this not too long ago actually. Ireland now has the same system as does, among others, Germany i.e. that birth in the country to foreign parents doesn't give the child Irish citizenship.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> He has 2 Irish parents that makes him Irish.
> 
> To be exact: After he was born his family moved to Tipperary, then back to south east England when he was 6½.
> 
> ...


My wife, born in Essex of Irish parents has two passports, British and Irish. All of her brothers, born in Essex of the same Irish parents regard themselves as English, and have British passports. 
Two have holidayed in Ireland, the other two have never expressed any desire to visit Ireland and never have done.
To what extent are they Irish?


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Not this old chestnut again....?! :deadhorse-a:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Chouan said:


> My wife, born in Essex of Irish parents has two passports, British and Irish. All of her brothers, born in Essex of the same Irish parents regard themselves as English, and have British passports.
> Two have holidayed in Ireland, the other two have never expressed any desire to visit Ireland and never have done.
> To what extent are they Irish?


This sounds very much like a question from an IQ test. :biggrin:


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Chouan said:


> She's not aged very well. This was her last year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The voice is still there, and she looks happy in the video from last month. Not depressing at all...


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Shaver said:


> I would force all popular musicians to booze and take drugs for a decade before they were allowed to record a single note.


That might not be such a bad idea. The world would be a much quieter place, that's a cert.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> The voice is still there, and she looks happy in the video from last month. Not depressing at all...


No, I meant depressing from my viewpoint, as a bloke who found her very attractive, now less so.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Chouan said:


> No, I meant depressing from my viewpoint, as a bloke who found her very attractive, now less so.


OK, sorry, gotcha.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> Not this old chestnut again....?! :deadhorse-a:


Unfortunately it seems so.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Chouan said:


> My wife, born in Essex of Irish parents has two passports, British and Irish. All of her brothers, born in Essex of the same Irish parents regard themselves as English, and have British passports.
> Two have holidayed in Ireland, the other two have never expressed any desire to visit Ireland and never have done.
> To what extent are they Irish?


Let me ask you this, if your parents moved for work purposes to China before you were born, and you were born there, would that make you Chinese? No, of course not, you would still be English, you would still be a member of the English people, culturally and ethnically. You might become a Chinese citizen but you would never be Chinese and OF the Chinese.

Nationality, is about ethnic belonging, about culture, about blood, about family. It has nothing to do with the accidents of birth place, death place etc.

I was born in London to 2 Irish parents. I am Irish and British but never English. Conversely I had an old police colleague who was born in Wexford to 1 English parent and 1 South African (of English stock) and he quite rightly IS English and considers himself English not Irish.

BTW, I will soon have a Swedish passport but I will never be Swedish. Citizenship is citizenship. Nationality is nationality.

English, Scottish and Welsh are not citizenships, therefore you cannot be born into one of those 3 peoples if for example your parents are Irish or Jamaican or Kenyan.

BUT please, don't derail the thread with this.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Shaver said:


> This sounds very much like a question from an IQ test. :biggrin:


...or, as I was hoping you'd say, from the replicant examination in "Bladerunner". Good one, nonetheless.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> ...or, as I was hoping you'd say, from the replicant examination in "Bladerunner". Good one, nonetheless.


Whilst not the Voight-Kampff, it was certainly designed to provoke an emotional response. :cool2:


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Nationality, is about ethnic belonging, about culture, about blood, about family. It has nothing to do with the accidents of birth place, death place etc.
> 
> BUT please, don't derail the thread with this.


I hope that I'm nor derailing the thread, but, if Nationality is as you suggest, then if the sense of belonging is towards being English, if the culture is English, and the Irishness is effectively rejected by choice, then Ann's four brothers are English. The accident of their birth, the cultural milieu of their parents, is, by your definition, irrelevant. Ann has embraced her Irishness, despite her English accent; I still feel that I'm coming home when I approach Galway, even though my Irishness is more personal and perhaps spiritual. I don't bang on about it, and never mention it, unless somebody makes unpleasant remarks about Irishness or the Irish. Our children think of themselves, if they think of their nationality at all, as English, with an extra feature of Irish ancestry. They're aware of it, but it isn't important to them.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Nationality, is about ethnic belonging, about culture, about blood, about family. It has nothing to do with the accidents of birth place, death place etc.


It actually is exactly about the latter, while the former doesn't enter into it at all. Nationality is the state's legal recognition of your right to its protection and whatever other benefits which may be due you, as well as your obligations towards the state.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

To put this nonsence to bed once and for all - Shane has embraced his Irishness with great gusto and then some. He spent some of his formative years in Tipp. His family lived, breathed and consumed our culture. It's evident in his art. Also is in his citizenship of and residence in Ireland - Dublin in fact. To try provoke this thread and call into question his Irishness is.... well... shame on you. You should know better. This thread is not about your wife's brothers. Now, enjoy this


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

On the first day of March it was raining
It was raining worse than anything that I have ever seen
I drank ten pints of beer and I cursed all the people there
And I wish that all this raining would stop falling down on me

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

At the time I was working for a landlord
And he was the meanest b*st*rd that you have ever seen
And to lose a single penny would grieve him awful sore
And he was a miserable b*ll*cks and a b*tch's b*st*rd's wh*re

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

I recall that we took care of him one Sunday
We got him out the back and we broke his f*ck*ng balls
And maybe that was dreaming and maybe that was real
But all I know is I left that place without a penny or f*ck all

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

But now I've the most charming of verandas
I sit and watch the junkies, the drunks, the pimps, the wh*res
Five green bottles sitting on the floor
I wish to Christ, I wish to Christ that I had fifteen more

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

The boys and me are drunk and looking for you
We'll eat your frigging entrails and we won't give a damn
Me daddy was a blue shirt and my mother a madam
My brother earned his medals at Mai Lei in Vietnam

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

On the first day of March it was raining
It was raining worse than anything that I have ever seen
Stay on the other side of the road
'Cause you can never tell
We've a thirst like a gang of devils
We're the boys from the county hell

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

And it's lend me ten pounds and I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Chouan said:


> I hope that I'm nor derailing the thread, but, if Nationality is as you suggest, then if the sense of belonging is towards being English, if the culture is English, and the Irishness is effectively rejected by choice, then Ann's four brothers are English. The accident of their birth, the cultural milieu of their parents, is, by your definition, irrelevant. Ann has embraced her Irishness, despite her English accent; I still feel that I'm coming home when I approach Galway, even though my Irishness is more personal and perhaps spiritual. I don't bang on about it, and never mention it, unless somebody makes unpleasant remarks about Irishness or the Irish. Our children think of themselves, if they think of their nationality at all, as English, with an extra feature of Irish ancestry. They're aware of it, but it isn't important to them.


Yes, choice and what you consider yourself are paramount. I have 2 cousins, brothers, (Irish mum, English dad) Liam was born in Liverpool and goes ballistic if you call him English, he lived in Dublin for about 15 years as an Adult. Jim on the otherh and was born in Rosslare (south of Wexford) and considers himself English.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Belfaborac said:


> It actually is exactly about the latter, while the former doesn't enter into it at all. Nationality is the state's legal recognition of your right to its protection and whatever other benefits which may be due you, as well as your obligations towards the state.


Totally wrong. Read my earlier entry, in the nationality laws of many countries where a person is born and lives is irrelevant, it is what there parents are that is important and determines what they are.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Been watching Shane and Joyce Redmond's version of "Fairytale of NY" and, darn it, he does grow on you. I finally had to google the lyrics, and yes, they are brilliant.

Shane: "I could have been someone."

Joyce: "And so could anyone! You took my dreams from me, when I first found you."

Shane: "I kept them with me babe. I put them with my own. Can't make it alone...I've built my dreams around you."


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

30th anniversary concerin the O2 Arena in London the night before last.....

Don't know about you but there's a lump in my throat after watching that.....


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

All of this back and forth about Irish or not Irish, Chinese or not Chinese, makes me think of a similar argument.
: Where'd you get the coconuts? 
: We found them. 
: Found them? In Mercia? The coconut's tropical! 
: What do you mean? 
: Well, this is a temperate zone 
: The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin or the plover may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our land? 
: Are you suggesting coconuts migrate? 
: Not at all. They could be carried. 
: What? A swallow carrying a coconut? 
: It could grip it by the husk! 
: It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut. 
: Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here? 
: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right? 
: Please! 
: Am I right


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I still prefer the Christy Moore version


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Is it just me or does Joyce Redmond look remarkably like Sally James?


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

I got to see Shane with the Pogues many years ago, July 4th 1986, at a small club in Montreal. It was a great gig. I sure do like the Pogues older stuff. Too bad Shane seems intent on destroying himself.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Flairball said:


> I got to see Shane with the Pogues many years ago, July 4th 1986, at a small club in Montreal. It was a great gig. I sure do like the Pogues older stuff. Too bad Shane seems intent on destroying himself.


The nature of genius is in the habit of destroying itself. (with apologies to Heraclitus)


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

Shaver said:


> The nature of genius is in the habit of destroying itself. (with apologies to Heraclitus)


Well, I guess genius' aren't that genius then, are they?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Flairball said:


> Well, I guess genius' aren't that genius then, are they?


I suspect that exactly what inspires genius is that which limits self-control. Genius thrives without the usual inhibitions, limitations, constraints, and reticence which normally govern self-preservation.

Any fool can live a quiet life, avoiding excess, always making the right choices, the sensible decisions, considering the consequences. No genius is required to tip-toe through a simple timid existance.

Tell you what though, MacGowan has *the* scariest laugh I have ever heard. :icon_pale:


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

Shaver said:


> Genius thrives without the usual inhibitions, limitations, constraints, and reticence which normally govern self-preservation.


You have just ruined my day. That is pretty much how I live, but I don't register on the genius scale. I don't mind still having my teeth, however.

Damn. Now that I think about it you've ruined my wife's day too; it'll be the Pogues on the ride to the mall today.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Flairball said:


> You have just ruined my day. That is pretty much how I live, but I don't register on the genius scale. I don't mind still having my teeth, however.
> 
> Damn. Now that I think about it you've ruined my wife's day too; it'll be the Pogues on the ride to the mall today.


No need to let it ruin your day. It's much more comfortable to live your life prudently. :icon_smile:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

What makes genius generally kills genius.


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