# Estate checks vs. District checks?



## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

Are they one and the same, or is this a bit like regimental ties vs. reverse-stripe regimental ties?

As an example, I'd imagine that many here are fans of the Glen Urquhart district check; however, a large-scale, black & white Glen Urquhart is the estate check for the Seafield Estate... from my understanding, in Britain estate checks are similar to regimental ties in that those wearing them should be associated with the estate somehow (owner, employee, etc.)...

A post over on the quite interesting London blog Permanent Style got me to thinking about this.









From the same post, a picture of employees wearing the Seafield estate check.

Are there any helpful guidelines for distinguishing Estate checks from District checks? (Acknowledging the fact that it's not especially important in the U.S. anyway.) I suppose I could simply keep a copy of E.P. Harrison's Scottish Estate Tweeds in my back pocket whenever I go out looking for new patterns, but a rule of thumb would be much nicer. :icon_smile_big:

Does anyone have any favorite district checks? I found a blog by a handweaving enthusiast that has a few interesting ones...









Aberchalder - Basically a shepherd's check with a red overcheck.









Dunecht - Shepherd's check with green check added. Houndstooth here... a requirement, or a preference?









Coigach - Scottish district check more popularly known as "Gun Club" after its adoption by an American gun club (any ideas which one? :icon_smile_big in 1874. Shepherd's check with red check added.

(I suppose I may just be a fan of shepherd's check variants in general...)

Another source of interesting information on district and estate checks is this helpful article from 1949 posted at ...









Includes some very obscure estate checks like the Erchless, which is described as "in the warp three ends of white, pale stone drab and yellow, the whole crossed in the filling with a "marl" or twist of black and white"(!) Apparently in the UK even the speckle pattern on your tweeds can be significant. :biggrin2:

Any good sources of Ivy League styled district check clothing?


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I want that Scottish Estate Tweeds you linked, but it's $30 used on Amazon, have to think about that. These terms are used a little loosely, but it's fair to say that "estate" is highly specific, "district" a little more general. Thus any glen plaid, or glenurqhart plaid (or check) would be one in the design associated with the Glen Urqhart district. It could be larger or smaller in pattern, with any colors (up to a point). It doesn't need to be actually woven there, depending on how exacting you are. An "estate check," as in that cool group photo, is a particular version of a district (or other) check, kind of a team jersey, worn by workers, gamekeepers, etc on a particular estate. So an estate check might be a large glen plaid, with a blue overplaid, something like that. Sort of comparable to the livery worn by the lord of the manor's coachmen, in town, only the lord might choose to wear the estate check himself. As your last picture shows, an estate tweed doesn't even need to be a check at all. The case of the Prince of Wales check illustrates the difficulty with the terminology, since nearly any glenurqhat plaid is frequently called a p.o.w. check; but, I gather, he wore a particular design, as to color and scale, that is, an "estate" check.

As for where to get them in an ivy style cut, ready to wear, it's tough, kind of hit or miss, since the most interesting tweeds are usually British, and cut in an English style. Press has good ones from time to time, I've seen interesting old BB check jackets, but when making jackets on that scale, the big companies generally avoid the nice quirky designs, in favor of something with broader appeal. Nice tweed coats with snappy checks can be found at some high end horsey boutiques, but the ones I've seen have that anglophiliac cut.


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

I'm not sure even where to start with this quesion, but I've been planning to purchase a tweed shooting coat in the not too distant future.
I can find several vendors, who make coats to order in various tweeds. Can any of the posters provide good sources for shooting coats. The ones I've been able to see up until this point are in the 500-600 GBP range. I've seen several vendors who seem to allow you to select the tweed you want and they will make the coat to your order. Any advice or direction will be most appreciated.
Thanks, Tom


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Based on my little knowledge of the Scottish sporting scene, I think District Check are primarily the result of marketing hooey (just like the original naming of tartans), while Estate checks are actually the basis of a kind of uniform for keepers, ghillies and stalkers, as seen in that cool picture above of the Seafield Estate guys. Proper estate checks are privately commissioned by the estate owner and woven in sufficiently large quantities to satisfy the needs of an estate, perhaps for several years. In the old days (pre-WWII) part of the compensation for an estate employee would be the use of a dwelling or a room in the big house, and a "suit of clothes" or two a year (and perhaps precious little else by today's standards).

I don't think that the patterns were registered or copyrighted in any way (may be different now in this age), but I doubt that you'll find many garments made up in currently-used Estate checks. A mill owner would not want to fall into disfavor with the high and wealthy by providing goods in a previously-commissioned pattern to any other than the original commissioner. Wouldn't be proper.

Several years ago I bought a couple of days of walked-up shooting in Scotland. During a rest I engaged the keeper (From the Dalmigavie Estate) on the subject of his suit, which was a very nice large green POW type pattern. To my surprise he actually seemed flattered that I liked it. He told me how "The Old Mrs., down South" (The mother of the current owner, who lived in England) had worked with a mill to design the pattern when she and her husband had acquired the estate. Evidently they still had a bolt of the original goods stored away. He said he was sorry we weren't shooting near the house that day, or he would give me a piece of the cloth for a souvenir. I was sorry, too.

Scott


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Tom, I got Bookster to make me a cap and Waistcoat several months back, and I was satisfied with the garments and the experience.

Scott


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

The Rambler said:


> I want that Scottish Estate Tweeds you linked, but it's $30 used on Amazon, have to think about that.


If it helps, here's a used copy for half that... I think it may only have been published in the UK, so shipping and the exchange rate tend to shift things upward. If you want it direct from the source, Johnstons of Elgin still has some for £16.95, although their flat-rate shipping policy probably doesn't make it worth it unless you're planning on getting a sweater or two as well.

There's a companion book, Our Scottish District Checks, that looks like it might be helpful, but it seems to be a bit scarcer than the one on estate checks...



The Rambler said:


> As your last picture shows, an estate tweed doesn't even need to be a check at all.


Not very encouraging for those trying to become familiar with the subject, is it? "Excuse me, would you mind holding still for a moment, I need to examine your weft marl..." :icon_smile_big:



The Rambler said:


> The case of the Prince of Wales check illustrates the difficulty with the terminology, since nearly any glenurqhat plaid is frequently called a p.o.w. check; but, I gather, he wore a particular design, as to color and scale, that is, an "estate" check.


If I understand the Permanent Style article correctly, part of the difficulty is because the various Princes of Wales keep fiddling with it. :icon_smile: According to Mr. Crompton, the POW check was originally just a brown/cream Glen Urquhart. The Prince's grandson (Edward VIII rather than Edward VII), shrunk down the size of the pattern and added the red and blue overchecks.



The Rambler said:


> As for where to get them in an ivy style cut, ready to wear, it's tough, kind of hit or miss, since the most interesting tweeds are usually British, and cut in an English style.


That's too bad. Granted, I suppose we have to wait until natural shoulder tailoring in general reaches a stable level of popularity before hoping for that extra level. At least Chipp is still around. :icon_smile: (Anyone have any news on the move?)


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Paul is still in the same location until early April. He has a future home but it has not been disclosed.



katon said:


> If it helps, here's a used copy for half that... I think it may only have been published in the UK, so shipping and the exchange rate tend to shift things upward. If you want it direct from the source, Johnstons of Elgin still has some for £16.95, although their flat-rate shipping policy probably doesn't make it worth it unless you're planning on getting a sweater or two as well.
> 
> There's a companion book, Our Scottish District Checks, that looks like it might be helpful, but it seems to be a bit scarcer than the one on estate checks...
> 
> ...


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

Thanks for the update, C. Sharp!



katon said:


> The Rambler said:
> 
> 
> > As for where to get them in an ivy style cut, ready to wear, it's tough, kind of hit or miss, since the most interesting tweeds are usually British, and cut in an English style.
> ...


 You know, on further thought, this would probably be something The Andover Shop could do. Tweeds are a specialty of theirs, after all...


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

well, it is a pleasure of a very high order indeed to acquire a few yards yourself, say while on a golf/fishing/whiskey tour of Scotland, then upon return presenting them to a good American tailor and having him run up a suit or jacket for you.

thanks for the book suggestions, Katon [just ordered the $15 copy].


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Here is a passage from the book. https://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2008/01/quotation-scottish-district-checks.html

There's a companion book, Our Scottish District Checks, that looks like it might be helpful, but it seems to be a bit scarcer than the one on estate checks...


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

More from the web

https://inhaughtpursuit.blogspot.com/2010/02/learning-from-master-weaver-and-spinner.html

https://scottishcomment.blogspot.com/2010/12/scottish-estate-tweeds-by-ep-harrison.html


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Lord Balfour looking through binoculars to see what tweed blends in best with the heathery hills is a wonderful image; purples and lavenders being a part of the natural landscape is a delightful natural fact.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I've just finished perusing my newly arrived copy of _Scottish Estate Tweeds _(a wonderful book, thanks Katon) The book _Our Scottish District Checks, _by ES Harrison was published in 1968; _Estate Tweeds_ is by his son, E P Harrison, and is said to be a revision of his father's book which includes a number of estate checks that were unknown at the time of the first book. Both authors were managing directors of Johnston. EP, the son says:

So the object of this edition is to try to update my father's work ...To start we have changed the title from [district checks] to [estate tweeds]. The term "district checks" was coined by my grandfather ... which were tweeds worn by people who lived in a specific area of Scotland. These are rather different from estate tweeds, and we felt the latter title was both more accurate and easier to understand.


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## Horwood & Shaw (Feb 8, 2011)

There is not a lot to add here as most of what has been said adequately explains the Estate/District tweed issue. What I would say is that you certainly don't need to pay £600 for a shooting coat. Here at Horwood & Shaw you can get shooting garments for a fraction of that price and in an excellent range of tweeds. 
I would add however that the best of the 'Estate' tweeds have been copied to within a threads difference and are now largely available to anyone. Indeed numerous estates have started with a tweed they like and have made slight changes to then establish there own pattern. If anyone knows of the estate tweed for Abercairney in Perthshire please get in touch!


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

Naval Gent said:


> Based on my little knowledge of the Scottish sporting scene, I think District Check are primarily the result of marketing hooey (just like the original naming of tartans), while Estate checks are actually the basis of a kind of uniform for keepers, ghillies and stalkers, as seen in that cool picture above of the Seafield Estate guys.


That does seem to be the case... It looks like most of the popular tweed styles are old estate checks that went into limbo and got picked up by commercial retailers. I'm a little surprised by this, considering that district tartans exist in abundance...

So what estate checks would you folks wear? Defunct patterns? Ones that have sort of lapsed through heavy commercial use? (I can't really see any harm in Glen Urquhart or Coigach/Gun Club...)

What about Lovat? I hadn't really thought of it as a pattern before giving the books a read...

I suppose you could simply order cloth from or someone like that and hope they won't lead you astray...? Plenty of tweed patterns out there, after all.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

This has proved to be an interesting subject. I was looking at the 1968 version of the book and at that time there were patterns the author said do not copy. As far as what what one can wear I am sure the existing mills are putting out to the public only approved patterns. Also I am not a weaving expert but I would imagine there might be some tromploi at work were there is a change that makes it different but the eye sees the original pattern.
Bruce Boyer once wrote about having a bespoke Lovet tweed suit made. As a tweed and color it was popular many years ago. I would imagine for some finding the perfect lovet is like a the Grail Quest.



katon said:


> That does seem to be the case... It looks like most of the popular tweed styles are old estate checks that went into limbo and got picked up by commercial retailers. I'm a little surprised by this, considering that district tartans exist in abundance...
> 
> So what estate checks would you folks wear? Defunct patterns? Ones that have sort of lapsed through heavy commercial use? (I can't really see any harm in Glen Urquhart or Coigach/Gun Club...)
> 
> ...


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I believe I read that slight variations on Estate Checks are used to evade whatever kind of protection they may have under law. Bookster might be persuaded to sell you a bolt to have made up at home, but i gather it's not standard practice.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

C. Sharp said:


> Paul is still in the same location until early April. He has a future home but it has not been disclosed.


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

It seems like most estate tweeds seem to fall into three main types... Shepherd's Check variants (with overcheck like the Aberchalder, multi-color check like the Gun Club, Shepherd's check with outlined checks, etc...), Glen Urquharts with various overchecks, and Lovat mixtures (with and without overchecks).


(Horse Guards)

I'd be interested in discovering how the regimental tweed tradition fits into all of this. I don't suppose there's a source for regimental tweeds similar to the books on estate tweeds?


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

These are covered in the last chapter of "Our Scottish District Checks" the author suggest that they were created for camouflage.



katon said:


> It seems like most estate tweeds seem to fall into three main types... Shepherd's Check variants (with overcheck like the Aberchalder, multi-color check like the Gun Club, Shepherd's check with outlined checks, etc...), Glen Urquharts with various overchecks, and Lovat mixtures (with and without overchecks).
> 
> (Horse Guards)
> 
> I'd be interested in discovering how the regimental tweed tradition fits into all of this. I don't suppose there's a source for regimental tweeds similar to the books on estate tweeds?


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

Definitely a good resource. I do wish that it had its own dedicated work, though.

A few regimental tweeds from "Our Scottish District Checks":









Seaforth Highlanders









Scots Greys









Royal Highland Fusiliers









London Scottish

Also:

King's Own Scottish Borderers (mentioned but not pictured)


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Katon, the revised "Estate" version of the Johnston's book has an extended history, which discusses their evolution from clan tartans, and regimental tweeds. (It's at home and I'm at the office or I might have more to report).


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## bookster1uk (Jun 1, 2007)

The Rambler said:


> I believe I read that slight variations on Estate Checks are used to evade whatever kind of protection they may have under law. Bookster might be persuaded to sell you a bolt to have made up at home, but i gather it's not standard practice.


Cloth sales are standard practice for us these days so do not hesitate to contact us if you see any in our gallery that tempt you, subject to availability of course. We even have customers own designs woven if you are looking to dress your estate or other staff . We also make from customers own cloths.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I presume that anyone who's gotten this far in this thread knows this, but if you haven't, be sure to check out the
cloth gallery on Bookster's website.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Katon, take a look at this 
it might be a Strathconan.


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## SartoNYC (Feb 22, 2005)

Both books are wonderful.

I designed and had a tweed woven working with this firm in the Highlands:

https://www.scottishtweeds.co.uk/

and had excellent results.

Tweed was originally camouflage, and thus representative of the flora of the district, or specific estate woven for.


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