# Suggestions for Best Dress Casual Shoes - To Go with Jeans or Khakis



## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

Good afternoon Crew,

I'm looking for a good quality dress casual shoe in a brown. I'm looking for something that I can where with jeans mostly--maybe khakis. I've been looking a wingtips like Alden for J.Crew Waxed Longwing bluchers or the Alden Edmonds McTavish.

I have some burgundy AE wings that I find too dressy, and I think my AE Fifth Avenues are casualish but too narrow for any jeans that can fit my cyclist thighs. I'm thinking wings but am open to suggestions.

Also, how do people like the Alden/J Crew shoes? I have no Aldens--mostly AEs and Peel % Co. How do Alden's fit compared to an AE 5 last?

Thanks and best regards,

Matt


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

LHS
half-size down


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## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm not sure about wing tips and jeans. A little to hipster for me I suppose. Khakis and loafers would be more Trad in my opinion.

I have some wing tips but I wear them with flannel pants and a blazer or a suit, if I had one.


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## bowtiedandstarryeyed (Jul 21, 2011)

Khakis or jeans with wingtips is a tricky look. You're not going to want to get your casual pants tailored with a break that would suit a wingtip. I'd stick to bucks or loafers.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

That's easy, the best shoe ever: the tassel loafer. Bucks or lwb's work if you must


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

David J. Cooper said:


> I'm not sure about wing tips and jeans. A little to hipster for me I suppose. Khakis and loafers would be more Trad in my opinion.
> 
> I have some wing tips but I wear them with flannel pants and a blazer or a suit, if I had one.


David, Are you thinking more dressy, traditional or just wings period? I totally agree with you when it comes to more dressy wings--like the ones I have. I wouldn't think of wearing them with jeans. However, I'm just thinking of waxed or more rugged wings--like the two I mentioned. I really don't like khaki pants and one like one pair. I usually wear wool slacks or jeans. I'm 29 but not really a hipster--perhaps hipster to a middle-aged man. 

I'm thinking about the Alden LHS that were suggested, but is it just the pictures I see on this site or do they make your feet look really round and fat? If they are really wide, any suggestions for not-wide-loafers?


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## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

blur those are beautiful shoes. I am middle aged so I struggle with the more fashion forward looks like casual wing tips with jeans. As long as you don't wear a tweed vest, ride a fixie and call your barman a mixologist, you should be OK.


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

hookem12387 said:


> That's easy, the best shoe ever: the tassel loafer. Bucks or lwb's work if you must


hookem, I was considering bucks, too. Any suggestions? Any suggestions for tassel loafers? As a 29-year-old I don't naturally gravitate toward loafers, but I used to no like wings either. So I can be influenced...


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

AE Strand in walnut


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## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

BTW. with jeans I wear these:


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

What's your price range? Maybe walk over for bucks. Tassels could come from AE, Alden or any other number. Oak St Bootmakers may have some penny loafers that'd fit the description that run $250. If it makes a difference, I'm 24 and loafers are my go to, shorts, jeans, chinos, anything really. Edit: for a narrower loafer, I'd avoid penny's (I think that apostrophe is correctly used?). You don't sound to be looking for the shape that's common to something like an LHS. 

If you want to be 'on trend' the suggestion would be dub monks (double monkstraps), by the way. Im just starting to come around on those, still not 100% sold.


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

bowtiedandstarryeyed said:


> Khakis or jeans with wingtips is a tricky look. You're not going to want to get your casual pants tailored with a break that would suit a wingtip. I'd stick to bucks or loafers.


bowtiedandstarryeyed: Even the wings I posted? I'm not thinking the AE McAllister or Strand or anything that will hold a shine. I agree with you there. Also, I am a die hard when it comes to correct pant length and won't wear anything that has more than a slight break. I won't wear any jeans that are too long, and I tailor anything that isn't a pair of jeans. So, I'm okay in that department.  I'm 5'8'' so I'm very conscious about pant and sleeve length--and that is also why I question Alden LHS. I find wide shoes to not be flattering. But, again, perhaps the camera just makes them appear wider or maybe I'm just not looking at a D width.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Perhaps it is generational, but I view jeans and khakis in separate categories. With jeans, camp mocs or desert boots. Khakis can pair with wax finished chukkas, such as the Timberland Wodehouse or something like the AE Wilbert or the several excellent hard-finished-but-not-shined lace-ups from HS Trask. I might wear shined loafers with khakis, but never shined shoes with jeans. The exception in my part of the world is shined cowboy boots with anything.


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## david809 (Jul 1, 2003)

I wear Alden longwings with jeans and khakis all the time, completely no problem. I think it is a pretty easy look that has been embraced by the hipsters. Shoot, the Alden wingtip boot from Alden of Carmel is the holy grail for a certain segment of hipsters. When Alden mania dies down, longwings will still look good with jeans and khakis. If you like the J. Crew brown leather longwing, might I suggest that you go to Alden of Carmel and get them with the commando sole, those are probably the next pair of longwings on my list.

Frankly, most shoes in the Barrie last will look good with jeans, since it is a more robust shape. Can't go wrong with PTB.

I personally love chukkas with jeans, very versatile shoes. I am a Clarks kind of a guy, as I tend to beat up my chukkas / spill drinks on them, but I recently purchased a pair of Alden snuff unlined chukkas and absolutely love them. They feel like I am wearing slippers or a pair of socks. Not wearing them to the bar, though there is a cool video on the Leffot website of the owner cleaning up a pair.

I love double monks but kind of a Euro thing. The John Lobb William has been on my list for about a decade and I still have not pulled the trigger. Should have bought earlier, as they have gone up $500 during those ten years. Bummer.


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## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

phyrpowr said:


> AE Strand in walnut


+1 but i wear my brown AE Long Wings with either denim and chinos on occasion too.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Alden suede longwing could be a very cool option. Or even a suede captoe. I tend to think suede is very versatile. I still vote tassel, though. Here's an AE loafer that'd look good. If the Polo Darlton goes on sale anytime soon, I'd get that, but it's a grail shoe for me.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

C&J Lowndes


Loake Blackfriars


Alden suede tls


Herring Shoes Darlingtons (by Loake)


Cheaney Avantgarde Ewans

Although they may be a bit much


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

david809 said:


> I wear Alden longwings with jeans and khakis all the time, completely no problem. I think it is a pretty easy look that has been embraced by the hipsters. Shoot, the Alden wingtip boot from Alden of Carmel is the holy grail for a certain segment of hipsters. When Alden mania dies down, longwings will still look good with jeans and khakis. If you like the J. Crew brown leather longwing, might I suggest that you go to Alden of Carmel and get them with the commando sole, those are probably the next pair of longwings on my list.
> 
> Frankly, most shoes in the Barrie last will look good with jeans, since it is a more robust shape. Can't go wrong with PTB.
> 
> ...


+1 for chukkas. Being a little higher, there's less sock showing which most often us a good thing with a more casual look IMO. The William is excellent but a bit (!) pricey.


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## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

After reading this thread, I double-checked to make sure this is the trad forum....here is an idea for Andy: a hipster forum.


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## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

That's the point I was trying to make.wear monk straps and wingtips with your thin jeans but don't expect the endorsement of most people here.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

That's a really boring attitude. Simply pm a mod to move it to fashion if it's such an eyesore. 

§1 any thread involving jeans is to be moved to the fashion forum. 

Then off to barbershop practice 


I wore mytoday with jeans.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

joeyzaza said:


> After reading this thread, I double-checked to make sure this is the trad forum....here is an idea for Andy: a hipster forum.


Longwings and loafers are hipster? Or is this anti-denim?


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

David J. Cooper said:


> blur those are beautiful shoes. I am middle aged so I struggle with the more fashion forward looks like casual wing tips with jeans. As long as you don't wear a tweed vest, ride a fixie and call your barman a mixologist, you should be OK.


No tweed vests or vests period--I promise.  And, no fixies or mixologists. Though, you folks have me considering double monks, now, too. I've always considered them like an odd car that you can't decide whether its awesome or ugly.


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

Thanks for all the suggestions, and sorry for the hipster controversy.  I really don't see anything super fashionable or hipster about any of the above. Allen Edmonds suggests wings with jeans and Sid Mashburn preaches double monks with jeans. As long as we aren't wearing Elvis Costello glasses and a bow tie, I think it would be pretty traditional--as far as weekend-ware is concerned. I'm mostly looking for something other than Chelsea boots to wear with jeans for, say, happy hour or dinner at a two star joint. I'm new to Texas, but I don't know why people want to wear boots in July.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Right, so it seems wearing nice casual shoes with jeans is suddenly a hipster thing.

Please wait while I go commit trad harakiri with the blade of my tie.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Alden All-Weather-Walker


Alden brown suede chukka



Alden casual wingtips


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

_Is_ there a main hipster clothing forum somewhere?

It would be interesting to see what goes on in the enemy's camp from time to time. :icon_smile_wink:


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Taken Aback said:


> _Is_ there a main hipster clothing forum somewhere?
> 
> It would be interesting to see what goes on in the enemy's camp from time to time. :icon_smile_wink:


 tumblr


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

True, but I'd like to _read_ them explain and justify their style in their own words rather than just _seeing_ them.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

With jacket and Levi's? Russell Moccasins.


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## lct01 (May 13, 2007)

*Brown Split Toes*

I haven't worn jeans in more than 15 years but occasionally wear khakis and pair them with classic shaped dark brown split toe lace ups. I typically wear the Mephisto Phoebus. Allen Edmonds Bradley is a very fine choice in the same style. The brown options are Chili and Shell Cordovan. The Alden 925- calf, Barrie last- may be another good choice.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

joeyzaza said:


> After reading this thread, I double-checked to make sure this is the trad forum....here is an idea for Andy: a hipster forum.


My thoughts as well, Mr. Zaza. Lately it seems the trad forum has either run out of steam, legitimate new subjects to explore, or posters with a true frame of reference as to what constitutes the kind of "trad" the originators had when this forum was established. It pains me to say this because I have learned a tremendous amount, hopefully contributed a little, and greatly enjoyed this forum for a number of years now.

Basically, most seem to agree that the heyday of the trad era that we so try to emulate extends from the mid-50s until somewhere in the early 70s. Those were my formative years and I still like the style. Though admittedly I did not matriculate at an Ivy League college, I was drawn to the "ivy" manner of dress from the time I was in my early teens.

Many of the type shoes considered to be appropriate for pairing with jeans in this thread is a prime example of how far from the moorings we have drifted. With all due respect, I can't remember a time prior to the present (apparently) when wearing wingtips of any sort with jeans would not have been cause for laughter and derision. When I first started seeing it demonstrated on this forum, I assumed it must be a new fad of some sort...but didn't really give it a lot of thought beyond a certain degree of bemusement. Now it seems to have not only gained traction, but the number of other shoes that look ridiculous when worn with jeans is now proliferating.

The fact that "hipsters" consider it cool should be a clue since most who aspire to that look tend to exagerate everything to its most gaudy extreme. That is the antithesis of classic traditional apparel. Not only has the forum seemingly "jumped the shark"...it seems to be gearing up to "jump the whale".:frown:


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

I suggest we move this thread into the fashion forum. I also suggest not posting in a thread for which you obviously have no interest in the actual topic. 

I don't see the harm in pairing jeans with wellmade Goodyear welted shoes in leather or suede. That it was once laughed at in certain parts of american society doesn't matter. Times change. In London they've been laughing at your frequent brown shoe/business suit combo and sack suit fit for decades. Now they themselves are pairing brown shoes with more natural fit suits, although the more natural shoulder may be an Italian import rather than a US one. The first time I met a guy in a suit paired with some burgundy tassel loafers I thought it looked very odd. Who cares? However, this thread clearly belongs in the fashion forum. 

There doesn't seem to be much sprezzatura going around in the trad community, those dastardly trendy GTH pants notwithstanding. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Are there no elements of other fashions than trad that trad may intermix with? Is there no room for evolution? I give it fifteen years tops then.


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## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

Seriously. I wear wingtips, I wear jeans. Just not together.

Jeans with boat shoes, an old crewneck sweater and an OCBD are serious trad to me. The jeans should be Levis 501s though. How far from trad woulld this ensemble be if the jeans were D and Gs with the bedazzled pockets?

I can't define hipster but I know it when I see it.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Why have hipsters become the whipping boy for this forum? That saddens me more than anything else.


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## Regillus (Mar 15, 2011)

Take a look at C&J Onslow:


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

Because they've adopted/cheapened certain elements of trad style? Beats me.

In all seriousness and to address the OP, since you're already looking at Alden, it seems the ultimate shoe for your purposes, in my mind, would be a PTB in cigar.


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

Who said "politics is an instrument for angry people?" So apparently are jeans and wings. My only intent for this discussion was to get some good ideas for shoes to wear with jeans/khakis on the weekend. It wasn't to be specifically about "what wings go best with jeans," but it seems the "unhappies" have created a straw man to start a war. I say this with levity. As a lawyer I guess I also have a problem with the logic, unless we start with the assumption that jeans are never an option at any time or place. I myself went 10 years without wearing jeans, but I now find them comfortable at night or on the weekends after being in a suit all day. Also, I now live in Dallas/Fort Worth, the 4th largest metro in the country, but they are still many times and places where I cannot wear a three piece suit--I'd stick out like a hipster. My goal was just to get some ideas for a pair of shoes to wear when I wear jeans at non-formal events--like drinking beer at the pub or at a two star restaurant. Given that 100% of my suits are Brooks Brothers 1818s, and 90% of my shoes are Allen Edmonds, I hardly would consider myself in the hipster category--unless you don't understand what a hipster is. It seems like you are misunderstanding "hipster" for "younger person"-or you're just imagining what else I'm wearing. And, I would have to say that "traditional" for a 55-year-old is not the same as "traditional" for a 29-year-old like myself. In fact, I imagine that would have to have been true in the 1950s and 60s as well. I hate pleats and hate double breaks in slacks, but such pants and my pants are still both traditional. I like BB's slimmer suits and hate suits that I think make, especially shorter people like myself, look fat. Sure, my BBs are more youthful, but I'm youthful, still, I think. So, I like the more JFK look--and not so much the LBJ look. I'm quite the fan of Howard Yount, and it's hard for me to find much hipster there. I believe people here are also fans.

But, I'm just smiling at the thought of hipster because everything you folks wear can be hipster--that is the whole point. They take what grandpa wore and mix and match it like Mr. Potato Head. Pocket watches? Hipster. Wings? Hipster. Any style of glasses pre-1970? Hipster. Bow ties? Hipster. Suspenders? Hipster. Loafers with jeans? I'd say pretty hipster with the right top. Those grandpa jeans with the high waist? Hipsters love them, especially lady hipsters.

But, anyway, I apologize that any of my considerations for weekend ware were offensive and apocalyptic. I must be a young, traditionalist werewolf-hipster. And, if it makes anyone sleep better, I think I'm leaning more toward loafers or monks. I'd do chukkas or boat shoes, but I already own both. I personally don't really like boat shoes with jeans. How traditional is that? I think it looks funny unless the jeans are super skinny, and I usually only wear boats with khaki shorts (the traditionalist in me). I love chukkas with jeans, but like my Chelseas, a bit too hot during a long Texas summer.

Last time I asked about wings with suits, so I've learned my lesson boys. You'll never hear me mention wings again.  And, thanks for the suggestions. I always learn something.


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## inq89 (Dec 3, 2008)

What about drivers? Like the AE Winthrop of Cole Haan Grant? A "dressy" casual shoe for jeans and chinos scream bucks to me, so if not that then idk.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

mjo_1 said:


> Because they've adopted/cheapened certain elements of trad style? Beats me.


 I'm not aiming this at you, but this sort of knee-jerk scapegoating of hipsters, baby boomers, hippies, the sexual revolution, rock and roll, feminism, etc. for the decline of menswear is probably part of the reason so many people are afraid to set foot on clothing forums or blogs and feel it is an exclusive, elitist environment. Just ask my Australian friend who wanted to ask some questions here yet recoiled in horror at some of the threads he saw. Hell, people _still_ try to pin the blame for the decline of hats on JFK of all people (an inspiration to many young people of this generation who want to dress better, including me) even when it has been so thoroughly disproved. Instead of blaming and blaming and blaming, why don't we focus on making ourselves look good so we can be an inspiration to our friends and friends of theirs?

A little positive energy wouldn't hurt.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
+1 and well said, Jovan. It is a clear indication that we have been drinking (far) too much of the Trad Koolaide, when we begin seeing all others as being hipsters, AmJacks, etc., based on any deviations from our perceptions of "This is what Trad really, really is"...or is not!


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

I apologize for thoughtlessly throwing something out there....maybe a positive side effect of the whole deal is that there is a wider range of quality products available if one can pick through the shorter term, here today gone tomorrow goods. That's more along the lines of what should have originally been said. 

Again, sorry for coming across in the wrong way.

Signed, 

A guy who owns a pair of designer jeans and whose best suit is a darted 1818.


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## SeanF (Jul 22, 2011)

For khakis, I would wear some oxfords or chukkas. You could wear the same for jeans too. But my favorite for jeans is a black slip on boot or even a brown one.


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## Ancient Madder (Jul 21, 2011)

Good recs here


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I sometimes wear gunboats/longwings with jeans; it's a good look for certain occasions when you're giving a "nod" to dressing up, but staying casual/street -- such as for a rooftop dinner or a gallery opening or whatever you want. And the gunboats are nicely clunky.

Usually I choose pennies or desert boots. 

As a guy surrounded by Brooklyn "hipsters" or whatever the word is, I have to comment: I don't often see wingtips with jeans, but I do VERY often see desert boots with jeans constantly, which of course is a very handsome pairing.

Point being, if you're trying to avoid looking hipster you might end up taking good stuff off the table.


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

I enjoyed the last few responses. I was just reading the older day about JFK killing the men's hat. And, mjo, my best suit is an 1818, darted. I find the Fitzgerald fits me like a glove with minimal tailoring. I, however, own no designer jeans--which are hard to find in a 30 inseam. 

Back to the case in point: What do you all think of the Crockett and Jones Merton in Beechnut Burnished Calf? I currently own no loafers, and this thread and forum have help me realize what I'm missing. My father owns about 20 pairs of loafers and wears only variations of loafers for dress and casual, so I think for the last 10 years I've been fighting "being dad." I think I can truly appreciate them now. However, I like the Mertons has they have clean lines and aren't too round. At 5'8'' I'm not a fan of anything that makes me look blocky. Anyone have the Mertons? I'd be interested in any opinions of the shoe.

Also, you folks finely have me sold on monks, too. What do you think of the Carmina double monk in the Simpson last? Also here. Alan at The Armoury thinks it will fit my feet better than the Inca last. Does anyone have experience with Carmina? I know none, but it looks like it might be a good "gateway monk," as the darker brown won't be as flashy/extravagant.

My plan is to wear the loafers with slacks--and jeans now and then, and to wear the monks with my cotton twill pants and more informal slacks--probably not with jeans, as the dark brown looks a bit too formal. Thought the leather is tumbled, so it might look a bit more casual when it arrives. I don't have much experience with tumbled leathers.

What I need is a nice pair of cowboy boots...and spurs.


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## jwooten (Dec 19, 2010)

I think the C&J Merton's would look fine. I will reserve comment on the double-monks till I see a pair in person, though I'm pretty sure my better half would shoot them down immediately.

On the topic of hipster-ism, I think staying away from stylish, fashionable, or high quality products so as not to look like you are following a trend is a contrite way of living. I like cowboy boots with my jeans just as mush as I enjoy my desert boots with jeans. I don't own wingtips, but don't for see wearing anything other than a wingtip boot with jeans. I have a harder problem wearing any kind of shiny-leather(a nice pair of cowboy boots being the exception.) with jeans, feels like a conflicting style.

Just my opinion.


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

jwooten said:


> I think the C&J Merton's would look fine. I will reserve comment on the double-monks till I see a pair in person, though I'm pretty sure my better half would shoot them down immediately.
> 
> On the topic of hipster-ism, I think staying away from stylish, fashionable, or high quality products so as not to look like you are following a trend is a contrite way of living. I like cowboy boots with my jeans just as mush as I enjoy my desert boots with jeans. I don't own wingtips, but don't for see wearing anything other than a wingtip boot with jeans. I have a harder problem wearing any kind of shiny-leather(a nice pair of cowboy boots being the exception.) with jeans, feels like a conflicting style.
> 
> ...


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Those Carmina dubs are absolutely gorgeous. I'm curious how much they are. Sid Mashburn recently put up an online shop, and his monks are supposed to be stellar, as well. I'm really not a giant fan of the shape of the Merltons, but that's just me -- like I said, I'd go for a tassel, but I'm not the one buying.


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## Philly Joe (Jul 20, 2011)

I went to a couple Ivy league schools in the 70s and 80s, own many of the classic shoe types listed above, and my choice for jeans: Black monks with silver buckles, AE Garner or TIM (Grenson?).

The shoe is certainly traditional, the pairing not the "trad" choice perhaps (as defined here.)

I will say that almost every time I show up on campus (at quite a "trad" school, BTW) wearing tweed, button downs, Levis, and black monks, I get compliments from cute young scholars of the opposite sex--and sometimes female profs more my age. That is good enough for me.

In my mind, this selection splits the difference between trad and hipster.

When I was in high school in Philly in the 70s, the selection among the prep school crowd was a pair of totally fried Top Siders held together with duct tape wrapped around the instep. Now was that "trad" or hipster?

Chinos, I think, present a different problem set than jeans. Black monks are out. However, pennys, bucks, or boat shoes are a universal solution. 

Longwing bluchers with jeans is a "statement" choice and a bit aggressive and clashy, I think. I'd take a nice brownish split toe over LWBs


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## jwooten (Dec 19, 2010)

I reserve comment on the monks because I haven't seen a pair in person. I can't visualize how they would look on. I'm indifferent about the style as a whole. I'm sure it looks good on some, but bad on others. I just don't have an opinion one way or the other. (My better half being my fiance. I don't think she would like them, but she doesn't always approve of my style choices, though eventually yields.She's not as adventurous with clothing and shoes.)

I would echo what hookem said, though. I prefer tassel as well.


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## blur800 (Oct 15, 2009)

hookem and jwooten: You seriously have me considering tassels, which I would never have imagined. Sometimes I just need a push in the right direction. When I first visited the forum I was looking for dress shoes. Some suggested the Allen Edmonds Park Ave. and Fifth Ave, but I thought them a bit too boring. I went with the Delrays and some long wings. Now, however, I own both the Park and Fifth Avenues, and they are my go to shoes. My problem is that I always try to buy versatile shoes--that is why I originally was considering casual wings. However, when the wings being considered are wax, rugged, and have no shine, I fail to see the total blasphemy.

Hookem: I'll try to post a picture of the Carminas when I get them. There don't seem to be any other pictures online, and those pictures Alan sent me aren't the best with regard to lighting (but they just got them two days ago he said.) They go for $622 shipped right now. That includes my banks exchange rate. So, they are about the same price as the Sid Mashburns, which were definitely in the running. He's out of my size until September, and I thought I'd start with something a little more toned down. You don't see many monks or anything too fun in DFW, unless you are in Uptown Dallas. It's a different story for women, as I see lots of all hot pink outfits.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

mjo_1 said:


> I apologize for thoughtlessly throwing something out there....maybe a positive side effect of the whole deal is that there is a wider range of quality products available if one can pick through the shorter term, here today gone tomorrow goods. That's more along the lines of what should have originally been said.
> 
> Again, sorry for coming across in the wrong way.
> 
> ...


 No no, please don't apologise. You made your intention clear with, "Beats me." I wasn't aiming my response at you. Rather, it was intended for the people you paraphrase and the ones who have responded with snide "hipster" comments in this thread.


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