# Younger clergyman and tweed...



## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

I've got a few questions about tweeds. I've long admired them, but never had much of an idea how to wear them. As an RC clergyman, I wear black most of the time when "on business" so-to-speak, so when the occasion would arise to "dress down," it's generally somewhat casual. So, I'm not sure whether tweed jackets could be a potential part of my casual wardrobe. The following from Andover Shop have really caught my eye, but I'm not sure 1: if they are too much for someone like me to pull off, and 2: how to wear them or what to wear them with. https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=118
https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=120
https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=119

Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to offer me in this regard.

Yours,

mulligan


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

mulligan said:


> I've got a few questions about tweeds. I've long admired them, but never had much of an idea how to wear them. As an RC clergyman, I wear black most of the time when "on business" so-to-speak, so when the occasion would arise to "dress down," it's generally somewhat casual. So, I'm not sure whether tweed jackets could be a potential part of my casual wardrobe. The following from Andover Shop have really caught my eye, but I'm not sure 1: if they are too much for someone like me to pull off, and 2: how to wear them or what to wear them with. https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=118
> https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=120
> https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=119
> 
> ...


Hello Father,

is this not an ecclesiastical matter? I would be genuinely surprised to be informed that the order does not have a guiding policy.....


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Shaver said:


> Hello Father,
> 
> is this not an ecclesiastical matter? I would be genuinely surprised to be informed that the order does not have a guiding policy.....


Dear Shaver,

Thanks for your response. As a secular cleric, there really are no rules concerning what we wear on "our own time" so it can be a bit of a conundrum to figure out exactly what our casual style should or even could entail. To tell the truth, most of us get so used to black that we lose sense of what else works with what, etc. The general idea, I suppose, is that we're not supposed to be dressing flash, but that certainly doesn't preclude looking sharp, if you know what I mean. Anyway, thanks again, and I would appreciate any suggestions you or anyone could give me regarding tweed jackets.

Yours,

Mulligan


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

I would have thought tweeds offered an excellent casual option. I don't see wearing a tailored odd jacket as in any way dressing up, although undoubtedly that is not a majority view!

Odd jackets in country colours usually pair well with cotton drills, moleskins, cords. In wool, flannel trousers (often best in mid-grey). Tattersall check shirts add to the country look; pale blue tones it down a little.

If true tweed is too thick and heavy, then there are some great options in softer and lighter worsted wool in country colours.

Shaver is much too modest to say, but he has posted an excellent example in the trad WAYWT:https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...ad-What-are-you-Wearing&p=1367519#post1367519 There's plenty of inspiration to be found there generally.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

You might want to think about grey and brown herringbone as well. I would find grey herringbone more versatile as I would (and do) wear grey herringbone in town on casual occasions. I am a little wedded to the idea of wearing colours to suit environment (greys, blues, etc. in town and browns, greens, heathery colours, etc. in the country). This may be a bit of a British hang-up.

So you could do much worse than start off by adding a tweed like Shaver's and a grey herringbone.

A very versatile odd jacket is of course the plain navy odd jacket. This could be a blazer (I use the term to refer to such a jacket with metal buttons) or otherwise (brown horn is a more understated but elegant option).


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## Acme (Oct 5, 2011)

mulligan said:


> Thanks for your response. As a secular cleric, there really are no rules concerning what we wear on "our own time" so it can be a bit of a conundrum to figure out exactly what our casual style should or even could entail. To tell the truth, most of us get so used to black that we lose sense of what else works with what, etc. The general idea, I suppose, is that we're not supposed to be dressing flash, but that certainly doesn't preclude looking sharp, if you know what I mean.


Welcome to the forum, Mulligan. You've come to an excellent place if you're looking to develop your sense of style. In no small part, I think, because a core part of the ethos here is that men should dress well, but not dress to stand out.

I think tweed would work well for you, for examples of how to wear it, I'd recommend perusing the A Trad "What are you Wearing" thread.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

mulligan said:


> Dear Shaver,
> 
> Thanks for your response. As a secular cleric, there really are no rules concerning what we wear on "our own time" so it can be a bit of a conundrum to figure out exactly what our casual style should or even could entail. To tell the truth, most of us get so used to black that we lose sense of what else works with what, etc. The general idea, I suppose, is that we're not supposed to be dressing flash, but that certainly doesn't preclude looking sharp, if you know what I mean. Anyway, thanks again, and I would appreciate any suggestions you or anyone could give me regarding tweed jackets.
> 
> ...


Goodness me, I live and learn. :redface:

Of the examples to which you linked, might I suggest that the Gamekeepers tweed would be the most versatile - simply because it is the least striking.

I would echo Balfour's advice that you examine the Trad forum for the sterling examples of casual, yet dignified, combinations of clothing to be found there in plentiful supply.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

mulligan said:


> Dear Shaver,
> 
> Thanks for your response. As a secular cleric, there really are no rules concerning what we wear on "our own time" so it can be a bit of a conundrum to figure out exactly what our casual style should or even could entail. To tell the truth, most of us get so used to black that we lose sense of what else works with what, etc. The general idea, I suppose, is that we're not supposed to be dressing flash, but that certainly doesn't preclude looking sharp, if you know what I mean. Anyway, thanks again, and I would appreciate any suggestions you or anyone could give me regarding tweed jackets.
> 
> ...


I am not overly familiar with the requirements and traditions of dress for clergy in mufti within the RC Church. If by secular cleric you mean a cleric other than a priest, I am at an even further loss. I am happy to offer my opinions about tweed and what can be worn with it, but the essential conflict posed in your OP is one that I think only you can resolve; I.e., how do others within your order dress, and how important is it for you to emulate that norm?

I'm afraid my direct experience of clergy in mufti is somewhat dated. :redface: And in those bygone days most clerics of most faiths dressed in rather sober clothing when not in vestments, even when they were not wearing the collar. If this is still the tradition among your peers, I would think you would be well served by darker tweeds, with darker shirts and trousers, limiting color and pattern. While I gravitate naturally to colors and love playing with them, there's no reason that a man can't present himself in a very smart way with a more sober palette.

Many tweed jackets are done in greys, and in muted tans so that I think it would be possible to assemble a wardrobe that included these and would still remain restrained. An example could be a medium grey tweed jacket, and charcoal flannel trousers. An alternative might be black corduroy pants. This might be an example -









And -


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I just had to look this up. I suppose a married Anglican priest who became Catholic priest would be an example?



> See also: Diocesan priest
> 
> The term *secular clergy* refers to deacons and priests who are not monastics or members of a religious institute. They are referred to also as the diocesan or sometimes (in the case of an archdiocese) as archdiocesan clergy.
> Catholic Church In the Catholic Church, the _secular clergy_ are ministers, such as deacons and priests, who do not belong to a religious institute. While regular clergy take religious vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience and follow the rule of life of the institute to which they belong, secular clergy do not take vows, and they live in the world (_saeculum_). Canon law makes specific demands on clergy, whether regular or secular, quite apart from the obligations consequent to religious vows.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

zzdocxx said:


> I just had to look this up. I suppose a married Anglican priest who became Catholic priest would be an example?


Actually, secular clergy refers to priests who are not members of a religious order, and therefore don't have a particular habit they wear all the time. They are also referred to as "diocesan clergy" because they are simply priests who serve a diocese, rather than being incorporated into a religious order, such as the Jesuits, who have a particular mission, e.g. teaching or ministry to the poor. Essentially, the role of the secular clergy is largely of staffing the parishes of the diocese, so that the parish priest is nearly always one of the secular clergy of a diocese.

This is another good example of how we priests become a bit insulated in our own world. The term "secular" has a general connotation of worldliness, which suggests something of a separation from the traditional understanding of ordained ministry, but in reality, it simply serves as a means of distinguishing priests of a diocese from those of a religious order. Sorry for the confusion!

Anyway, thank you very much for the advice you've given me so far. It's been very helpful.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

zzdocxx said:


> I just had to look this up. I suppose a married Anglican priest who became Catholic priest would be an example?


Thank you for looking this up, and for the interesting and informative information. But as better informed as I may be, I now have even *more *questions than before my education! :icon_smile_big: And feel even less well prepared to attempt to offer advice on the OP's topic!

(In light of this, I considered attempting comic antipodes to chastity, poverty and obedience, but fortunately realized that would transgress even my meager standards of propriety! :redface


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Flanderian said:


> Thank you for looking this up, and for the interesting and informative information. But as better informed as I may be, I now have even *more *questions than before my education! :icon_smile_big:


Same here.


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

Aside from the tweed, informative thread! I think taking notes from college professors would be a good place to start. Tweeds are nice, knit ties, corduroy slacks, etc all will be good in the fall and winter, while be appropriately non-flashy.


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

Shaver said:


> I would echo Balfour's advice that you examine the Trad forum for the sterling examples of casual, yet dignified, combinations of clothing to be found there in plentiful supply.


By "sterling examples" he means his own contributions. Which are indeed sterling.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

I grew up in Ireland and don't think I remember seeing a priest in anything other than black back then.
Living in rural England now and it seems most times I see an Anglican vicar, they are wearing a tweed jacket. Usually over their black shirt.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Thanks again, everyone, for your very kind suggestions, and they prompt another question. Where are the best places to buy tweed jackets and other items? I'm familiar with Andover Shop, but don't know much else about where the best is to be found. Also, I'd rather not break the bank with a jacket purchase, though I'm certainly willing to pay for quality. Any suggestions along these lines?

Many thanks.


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## LouB (Nov 8, 2010)

There are a number of fine offerings on the Informal Trad Thrift Store Exchange, at very reasonable prices.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

mulligan said:


> Where are the best places to buy tweed jackets and other items?


WalMart for Harris Tweed.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

mulligan said:


> Thanks again, everyone, for your very kind suggestions, and they prompt another question. Where are the best places to buy tweed jackets and other items? I'm familiar with Andover Shop, but don't know much else about where the best is to be found. Also, I'd rather not break the bank with a jacket purchase, though I'm certainly willing to pay for quality. Any suggestions along these lines?
> 
> Many thanks.


O'Connell's has nice tweed, but they're also very costly.

https://www.oconnellsclothing.com/home.php?cat=250

The suggestion for Walmart is worth looking into. I don't care for the cut of these Harris Tweed jackets, but the cloth is authentic, and hence, of superb quality. It will wear like iron. You are unlikely to ever find anything similar at these prices again. A fellow made a bad business decision (And damaged the Harris Tweed market in the process.) and had to unload the jackets he was hoarding through Walmart.


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

Take a look at eBay, and Tweedman's, too.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Flairball said:


> By "sterling examples" he means his own contributions. Which are indeed sterling.


Oh, his contributions are sterling all right... 92.5% pure... the other 7.5% is questionable. :devil:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

drlivingston said:


> Oh, his contributions are sterling all right... 92.5% pure... the other 7.5% is questionable. :devil:


How very mean-spirited. That 7.5% is my face, I cannot purchase a new one.

It has however benefited from the occasional work of an alterations tailor, butterfly stitched in A&E.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

mulligan said:


> Thanks again, everyone, for your very kind suggestions, and they prompt another question. Where are the best places to buy tweed jackets and other items?


One of the best jackets I own is a Daks bought on ebay. A bargain too.
Check out some reputable sellers like Bookster and .
I've got good items from both of those.

I've never bought from Tweedman's Vintage but they do get a lot of good reviews.


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## Ekphrastic (Oct 4, 2009)

Dear Mulligan,

You pose a very interesting question (aside from the perennial favorite of _Where's the best place for tweed_, which gets asked frequently around here and almost sounds like we're shopping for something illicit...). Your question about the _appropriateness_ of tweed in situations where you, as a member of clergy, may be seen in public--albeit while you're not "on the clock"--is an important one to consider.

I'd like to cite the Bible, if I may (and, since you're a man of the cloth, I feel it's not irrelevant or inappropriate). In Romans 14, Paul addresses the subject of eating "unclean" meat, which, at that time, made for quite the controversy, since Christians were emerging from the shadow of the Law of Moses. Beginning in verse 13, Paul states:

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

In other words, Paul was telling his fellow Christians that, no, they didn't have to worry about eating unclean meats anymore. (Which is a good thing, because I cannot face the world without bacon.) Nevertheless, he followed up his statement by saying, hey, don't upset anyone over this. If someone's getting mad at you because you're gnawing on a trotter, take the higher road and ditch the pig.

Why do I mention this?

People have surprisingly strong opinions about tweed. I absolutely love it. I love, love, love it. It's what brought me to the Trad forum in the first place. TweedyDon's sales posts are like visual chocolate. My eyes pore over the checks, the stripes, the plaids. For me, the louder, the better. Who knows why? I don't care. I feel the need for tweed.

Nevertheless, some people detest tweed. My grandfather, for example, always wore loud jackets, and my dad couldn't stand it. It was embarrassing for him. To this day, a plaid-patterned jacket--even a relatively muted one--drives my father in the opposite direction. (I think my dad might have one odd jacket. The rest are conservative business suits.)

Therefore, when you're shopping for tweed jackets, ask yourself: will a particular jacket help you project a welcoming image, or will the jacket be perceived as outlandish? Even outside of your priestly blacks, I imagine you still want to present yourself in such a way that, should you need to act in an ecclesiastical role, you will feel comfortable doing so at any time. I help out at my church, and I know all too well that people want to talk about problems at seemingly random times. You never know who could need to talk, need to get something off their chest, and may be watching you from across the room, judging whether you're the kind of guy to whom they can relate. (That almost sounds creepy, but it happens.) Will a tweed jacket make someone think twice about talking--confiding--with you?

As I said, I love tweed, so I'd have no problem talking to you, even if you were wearing the loudest GTH fare. Some people--unrightly so--may have a problem. Of course, this gets back to the oft-debated subject of whether people should be judged on their clothes, and whether we should dress to accommodate that judgment, etc. But I know that, when I wear tweed jackets, I get _lots_ of comments--mostly good comments, but sometimes...

I've rambled. Basically, I'm just saying that you ought to consider the image you'll be projecting. Do I think tweed's appropriate for your situation? Absolutely. (I love those tweeds you picked out, by the way.) I think you'll look great. However, I continue to be surprised by the reaction tweed gets in public, so just think about it. Don't go overboard.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

Father,

Your problem is my problem. I'm working on a Masters from an Anglican seminary. I might end up wearing seriously conservative clothing, but I won't technically be a priest (perhaps a missionary). 

I suggest you contact another priest and ask what they wear on their days off. My friend, Canon James Robinson wears cargo pants and polo shirts, even for the Saturday evening service. For Sunday morning, it's black suits and collar.

If you are doing hospital visits, you may want to consider a casual sportscoat (tweed is good here) and wear your collar. But for receiving visitors in your office, or counseling parishioners, you're pretty much stuck with black. Yours is a noble profession, so be glad there is a uniform.


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## duckbill (Jul 15, 2008)

mulligan said:


> Where are the best places to buy tweed jackets and other items? I'm familiar with Andover Shop, but don't know much else about where the best is to be found. Also, I'd rather not break the bank with a jacket purchase, though I'm certainly willing to pay for quality. Any suggestions along these lines?


Have a look at the Thrift Exchange--especially the offerings by TweedyDon (who's always open to offers) and tonylumpkin!


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

Welcome to the board, Father. I had a quasi-domicile in the Diocese of Columbus some years back when I was in college. Has Bishop Campbell recovered well these last few years from his illness? I was fortunate enough to meet His Excellency several times, and he was always very pleasant. I was saddened to hear that he had taken ill.

But on to the topic at hand. 

There is a school of thought, with which I tend to sympathize, along the lines that one's clericals are an important witness when worn out in public, and that all other things being equal, a priest ought to wear those. Have you considered investing in a ? They're lots of fun, and there's something quite right about the way the priest take it off and put it on during the Gloria. But I digress.

But if the question is directed at things for mucking around in one's garden, or going on shooting trips with fellow priests or other friends (you don't shoot? call Fr. Sizemore in Sunbury: I know he has a group of shotgun-toting clerics who I'm sure would be happy to teach you; tell him a former OWU student tipped you off). I think tweeds would be perfectly suited for that. One can't shoot pheasant in a cassock, at least not very easily. I like the Hunting Tweed: it's understated, sober, but really quite attractive. Of the three you listed, it's the one I would buy for myself.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Ekphrastic,

Thank you for your comments--well taken. St. Paul's advice is also well taken. You know, I hadn't considered that bit about the meat offered to idols, but it's certainly appropriate. It's been my experience that people can always spot clergy in a crowd, even when in mufti, and even when they don't know them. I can't tell you how many times people have seen me in lay clothes and asked if I were a priest, or said, good morning Father...


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Canadian said:


> Father,
> 
> Your problem is my problem. I'm working on a Masters from an Anglican seminary. I might end up wearing seriously conservative clothing, but I won't technically be a priest (perhaps a missionary).
> 
> ...


Most of the time I am very grateful that getting dressed in the morning is as easy as throwing on the cassock and walking to the chapel, but when it comes time to get away from Church and have some personal time, it gets a little more complicated, as Canon Robinson demonstrates!

Thanks for the advice, and best of luck for you in your future. God bless.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Titus_A said:


> Welcome to the board, Father. I had a quasi-domicile in the Diocese of Columbus some years back when I was in college. Has Bishop Campbell recovered well these last few years from his illness? I was fortunate enough to meet His Excellency several times, and he was always very pleasant. I was saddened to hear that he had taken ill.
> 
> But on to the topic at hand.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the reply. Bishop Campbell does seem to have recovered well over the past years, though I've only been in Columbus since August, 2011. Actually, I'm in studies at the Josephinum, with diaconate ordination coming in May.

I certainly do have a biretta, though we don't get to exercise them terribly frequently at present. I agree, there is a certain something about the various hat movements that is totally lost in the new manner. O tempora, o mores... I fully agree with you about the value of clerical attire, but for those times off and away from the parish, I though it's be...meet and just...to seek the opinion of people who know what kind of image or attitude the wearing of tweed may suggest to those who will undoubtedly recognize me as a cleric, even when in mufti.

Thanks again for your delightful post. I don't know too many of the Columbus priests, including Fr. Sizemore, but I may have to give him a call.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Another question for anyone who cares to answer. What do you think about Norfolk jackets? Are they too much to wear casually?


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

A full Norfolk? With the belt all the way around? Personally I find them cumbersome. However, the half Norfolk with the belt across the back is Countryside style to the max. Wonderful style in tweed with patch pockets. I'd even throw in the bi-swing shoulders but I've got a thing for fine shotguns so you'll have to take the last recommendation with a grain of salt.


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## Liquiriza (Dec 25, 2012)

mulligan said:


> Thanks again, everyone, for your very kind suggestions, and they prompt another question. Where are the best places to buy tweed jackets and other items? I'm familiar with Andover Shop, but don't know much else about where the best is to be found. Also, I'd rather not break the bank with a jacket purchase, though I'm certainly willing to pay for quality. Any suggestions along these lines?
> 
> Many thanks.


I would think that the local St Vincent De Paul shop is where to look.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

mulligan said:


> I though it's be...meet and just...to seek the opinion of people


I laughed.

In sum, I think tweeds are perfectly acceptable for a priest, transitional deacon, or seminarian to wear when there's no purpose to be served or it is impractical for some reason to don clericals.

Can I ask your home diocese?


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## Acme (Oct 5, 2011)

Liquiriza said:


> I would think that the local St Vincent De Paul shop is where to look.


If you enjoy thrifting, and don't mind making several visits to find your size, yes. If not, the Trad Thrift Exchange Thread is best.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Titus_A said:


> I laughed.
> 
> In sum, I think tweeds are perfectly acceptable for a priest, transitional deacon, or seminarian to wear when there's no purpose to be served or it is impractical for some reason to don clericals.
> 
> Can I ask your home diocese?


Certainly. My home diocese is Kansas City-St. Joseph, Missouri.


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## TheUndertaker (Feb 6, 2013)

Anglican Priests wear tweed quite often. I can't see why the Romans should have to miss out!


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

mulligan said:


> Certainly. My home diocese is Kansas City-St. Joseph, Missouri.


Hmm, I don't think I know anyone up there. But I've heard great things about Bishop Finn. Enjoy the tweed and best wishes on the rest of your studies.


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

mulligan said:


> I've got a few questions about tweeds. I've long admired them, but never had much of an idea how to wear them. As an RC clergyman, I wear black most of the time when "on business" so-to-speak, so when the occasion would arise to "dress down," it's generally somewhat casual. So, I'm not sure whether tweed jackets could be a potential part of my casual wardrobe. The following from Andover Shop have really caught my eye, but I'm not sure 1: if they are too much for someone like me to pull off, and 2: how to wear them or what to wear them with. https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=118
> https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=120
> https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=119
> 
> ...


Mulligan, I think all of the jackets you linked to show that you have a tremendous sense of style. Are you near Boston? If so, I suggest you drop in to Andover Shop. The whole experience is worth it. And the tailoring you get will be top notch. Tattersall shirts, chinos, moleskins, corduroy, grey worsteds and flannels are all there too. But you may want to hit up "An Affordable Wardrobe" website for some second hand goods.

BTW, as a former Jesuit, I applaud your not always dressing in a roman collar. Enjoy yourself in some classic clothes that will last you a long time!


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

kforton said:


> Mulligan, I think all of the jackets you linked to show that you have a tremendous sense of style. Are you near Boston? If so, I suggest you drop in to Andover Shop. The whole experience is worth it. And the tailoring you get will be top notch. Tattersall shirts, chinos, moleskins, corduroy, grey worsteds and flannels are all there too. But you may want to hit up "An Affordable Wardrobe" website for some second hand goods.
> 
> BTW, as a former Jesuit, I applaud your not always dressing in a roman collar. Enjoy yourself in some classic clothes that will last you a long time!


Kforton,

Thank you very much for the very kind compliment. Sadly, I'm in Columbus, Ohio, so nowhere near Boston. I've ogled the Andover Shop website countless times, but I really need to see these things before I make the decision to invest in any. I actually plan on visiting a friend in Providence, RI, in June, so there might be time to swing by Andover then. At least, I'm hoping so...


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

mulligan said:


> Kforton,
> 
> Thank you very much for the very kind compliment. Sadly, I'm in Columbus, Ohio, so nowhere near Boston. I've ogled the Andover Shop website countless times, but I really need to see these things before I make the decision to invest in any. I actually plan on visiting a friend in Providence, RI, in June, so there might be time to swing by Andover then. At least, I'm hoping so...


Is there no traditional clothier in Columbus? It won't be the Andover Shop, but it may be good enough for furnishings, etc.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

What size are you, old chap?


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

To digress slightly, not being Catholic, I'm intrigued by the question of when one is 'off duty' and the implications for dress? Are you not encouraged to wear some identifier as a priest (even if just the Roman collar) even when 'off duty'? Genuine curiosity on my part.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

zzdocxx said:


> What size are you, old chap?


I'm between a 44R and 45R.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I wonder if the experts could answer: Would something in a Donegal tweed, without any plaid type pattern, be considered more appropriate just due to not having a pattern?

Also, Padre, I'm wondering if you might find something among the items for sale here that would fit the bill. There are some great values, though I usually need to double check with people more knowledgeable first.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Balfour said:


> To digress slightly, not being Catholic, I'm intrigued by the question of when one is 'off duty' and the implications for dress? Are you not encouraged to wear some identifier as a priest (even if just the Roman collar) even when 'off duty'? Genuine curiosity on my part.


Good question. The general idea is that priests ought always be available to the people they have been sent to serve, which people generally indicates a particular parish or some other such clearly demarcated community. In a broader sense, however, any priest really ought to be available to any person who might want to speak with him for any reason. That having been said, though, the priestly profession gets a bit taxing after a while, especially after spending so much time in interpersonal activities, often of a serious nature. It becomes necessary then-evan vital--for priests to have some kind of recreation that takes them away from the usual cares of their profession to avoid burnout or other more serious consequences of "clerical overwork." For many priests, myself included, taking off the collar is a big help to unwinding and recharging myself for the work to come. An interesting distinction is between the clerical and priestly. I'm always a priest, and therefore happy to assist you an any way I can regardless of how I am dressed, but from time to time I slip out of clerical mode in order to blend in with the rest of the populace.

I think dressing becomes a little more difficult for Roman priests since we don't have ladies to squire about, which presents one with a whole other set of occasions each of which requires a certain kind of dress. We Romans basically have "official clerical dress" and then...whatever else. It's a bit of a grey area.

In sum, a priest is always encouraged to appear like a priest, which entails a good deal more than the clerical clothes he wears, but is not necessarily always encouraged to dress in the clerical manner. When in ministry, it would be churlish to say the least to present oneself in anything but clericals, but on other occasions, the clerical is allowed to give way to clothing that enables the priest to have bit of normal social interaction, without having to worry about preserving ecclesiastical decorum--which goes a bit beyond ordinary politeness--at all times.

I hope this rather long-winded explanation sheds a little light in the RC clerical world, Balfour, and anyone else who might be interested.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

This makes a lot of sense, thank you.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

How about when you are playing on the church softball team? Or rugby for that matter?

Meanwhile, I wonder if this would work for you, perhaps it could be taken in one smidge or have the button moved over to make it a little more snug, Forum member L-Feld is offering it for the cost of shipping to a good home:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...ee-sacks-to-a-good-home&p=1370663#post1370663









I think the shoulder measurement is not too far off. You could even change the buttons to something more plain.

But perhaps blue isn't suitable, just a suggestion.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

zzdocxx said:


> How about when you are playing on the church softball team? Or rugby for that matter?
> 
> Meanwhile, I wonder if this would work for you, perhaps it could be taken in one smidge or have the button moved over to make it a little more snug, Forum member L-Feld is offering it for the cost of shipping to a good home:
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for the suggestion. A navy blazer is one of the few non-black coats I do have in my wardrobe already, actually. Any other suggestions would be appreciated, though.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

mulligan said:


> Good question. The general idea is that priests ought always be available to the people they have been sent to serve, which people generally indicates a particular parish or some other such clearly demarcated community. In a broader sense, however, any priest really ought to be available to any person who might want to speak with him for any reason. That having been said, though, the priestly profession gets a bit taxing after a while, especially after spending so much time in interpersonal activities, often of a serious nature. It becomes necessary then-evan vital--for priests to have some kind of recreation that takes them away from the usual cares of their profession to avoid burnout or other more serious consequences of "clerical overwork." For many priests, myself included, taking off the collar is a big help to unwinding and recharging myself for the work to come. An interesting distinction is between the clerical and priestly. I'm always a priest, and therefore happy to assist you an any way I can regardless of how I am dressed, but from time to time I slip out of clerical mode in order to blend in with the rest of the populace.
> 
> I think dressing becomes a little more difficult for Roman priests since we don't have ladies to squire about, which presents one with a whole other set of occasions each of which requires a certain kind of dress. We Romans basically have "official clerical dress" and then...whatever else. It's a bit of a grey area.
> 
> ...


Father, this makes sense. My experience has always been almost exclusively Jesuit priests, who are of course always in uniform. I tend to forget that their are other varieties.....


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

mulligan said:


> Thanks a lot for the suggestion. A navy blazer is one of the few non-black coats I do have in my wardrobe already, actually. Any other suggestions would be appreciated, though.


Let us continue perusing the trad thrift and sales forums for a suitable coat then, while you continue to give this some thought, shall we?


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

https://www.augustusbrine.com/Strellson-p/j1012298.htm ~$60

https://www.augustusbrine.com/Arnold-Brant-Loro-Piana-p/j0113353.htm $100 (perhaps a smidge long?)

Just throwing a few things out there, though perhaps not tweedly enough.

Are you supposed to wear something scratchy like Thomas a Becket?

I'm not meaning to throw temptation in your way.

Speaking of temptation did you see that thread where the guy order 5 pair of cordovans from Allen Edmonds? All the same models, a sort of boot, each in a different color.

:eek2:

OK don't mind me, I'm just brainstorming. And I understand that buying something online is like buying a pig in a poke when it comes to fit.

Good luck!

:thumbs-up:


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Might there be different customs in different countries? I was recently in Germany on a visit with my choir, where we sang one concert and one service in an RC Church. The parish priest, on both occasions, was addressed by members of his congregation as "Herr" (Mr) and not as "Father", and arrived at the church in sports jacket and tie. I don't think this would happen in Britain or Ireland.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

williamson said:


> Might there be different customs in different countries? I was recently in Germany on a visit with my choir, where we sang one concert and one service in an RC Church. The parish priest, on both occasions, was addressed by members of his congregation as "Herr" (Mr) and not as "Father", and arrived at the church in sports jacket and tie. I don't think this would happen in Britain or Ireland.


This is true. Priest professors in Germany wore ties and jackets quite often in the early 20th century, just as a matter of course. As a matter of fact, there are several pictures of Fr. Joseph Ratzinger wearing this outfit in the 50s-before he became Pope, that is. Very interesting.


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## Captain America (Aug 28, 2012)

OP: (Heck, I say that as a pun. . . I'm a lay Dominican, so I'm entitled to add "OP" after my name). Tweed is good stuff. I love it, it looks great, and those in the know recognize its value. It would look great on you, but keep the collar. We plebes in the pews these days feel reassured by it, rather than suspect that you're trying to go incognito.

I always tell people that if I were a priest, I'd go the Bing Crosby route and wear a full black cassock about town. It's a striking and handsome look, masculine if you have a trim shape, and certainly reaffirms Christianity's place in the world, which is important: we don't want to be religious or Christian only on the church lot.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Captain America said:


> OP: (Heck, I say that as a pun. . . I'm a lay Dominican, so I'm entitled to add "OP" after my name). Tweed is good stuff. I love it, it looks great, and those in the know recognize its value. It would look great on you, but keep the collar. We plebes in the pews these days feel reassured by it, rather than suspect that you're trying to go incognito.
> 
> I always tell people that if I were a priest, I'd go the Bing Crosby route and wear a full black cassock about town. It's a striking and handsome look, masculine if you have a trim shape, and certainly reaffirms Christianity's place in the world, which is important: we don't want to be religious or Christian only on the church lot.


Not a popular look for priests these days when not in church. Most would seem to dress in mufti when not on church business. That's certainly the case back home in Ireland, as there where cases of priests getting verbally abused on the street. Not really germane to this forum though.



mulligan said:


> This is true. Priest professors in Germany wore ties and jackets quite often in the early 20th century, just as a matter of course. As a matter of fact, there are several pictures of Fr. Joseph Ratzinger wearing this outfit in the 50s-before he became Pope, that is. Very interesting.


A look he could be going back to soon perhaps.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm a protestant, but I regularly wear an old Corbin Tweed (thanks Tweedy Don!) into the pulpit regularly. We don't have vestments, so my look is typically Trad Casual. Sort of "Take Ivy" at a rural church.


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## Captain America (Aug 28, 2012)

I think going in disguise is a longterm bad idea. Folks know that the percentage of abusers in the church is less than in the general population, and there's much to be said for showing your colors in a tough situation.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Now where has the good Father Mulligan got himself to?


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

zzdocxx said:


> Now where has the good Father Mulligan got himself to?


Zzdocxx,

Sorry for my inactivity. I've been reading the comments and am very grateful for all your assistance. I suppose I'll continue my search for tweeds and see what I can come up with...


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Captain America said:


> I think going in disguise is a longterm bad idea. Folks know that the percentage of abusers in the church is less than in the general population, and there's much to be said for showing your colors in a tough situation.


Captain America,

It's not a matter of going in disguise, but rather of simply getting away. The fact is that priests have always done this--good priests, mind you--and will continue to do it for reasons of personal refreshment. "Showing the colors," as you put it, is indeed a wonderful thing, and I certainly agree that avoiding difficult issues in current Church scandals by rolling over is not the solution, but showing the colors also draws all attention to oneself, both good and bad, and it can be quite the onerous reality when trying to have a bit if r&r, which priests also need.

Let's also remember that Our Lord Himself also took Himself away from time to time for personal refreshment. Granted, He would go to a deserted place, and not off to stroll about main street, but I wouldn't doubt that He got a bit more comfortable when He went away.


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## Captain America (Aug 28, 2012)

Ah, okay. But I really LIKE that simple black cassock look!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You see clergymen (and women) with the collar in movies and television all the time, even when wearing casual attire, but it seems to be rarely like that in real life!


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Captain America said:


> Ah, okay. But I really LIKE that simple black cassock look!


And I certainly won't deny that it's the best look when around the people. In fact, it's what I wear most of the time.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I work for the Catholic Church. Most of the bishops wear the collar or full cossack at work, obviously. However, we have quite a few older monks who wear repp ties and tweed jackets under their brown habits around the office. I've also seen a few clergymen wearing more tradly attire at social events held outside the office, though I don't know their exact positions in the clergy (of course, when Dolan or Wuerl show up, the dress is much less casual). Similarly, many of the men in the adjacent seminaries can be seen in tweeds and similar type dress if I go into work on a Saturday. I think you're safe.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

Captain America said:


> Ah, okay. But I really LIKE that simple black cassock look!


You missed the beginning of the thread. The point, as I perceived it and as mulligan appears to have presented it is not "should I wear my cassock," but "what should I wear when clericals aren't practical." One wouldn't expect him to go deer stalking, for instance, in a cassock.

That said, I'd steer clear of those Tweed & Repp, O.F.M., types in Washington to which Tilton refers.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Jovan said:


> You see clergymen (and women) with the collar in movies and television all the time, even when wearing casual attire, but it seems to be rarely like that in real life!


It saves a line or two of dialogue. :icon_viking:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> It saves a line or two of dialogue. :icon_viking:


A good point! Though usually they are introduced as "Vicar/Father" whatever.


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## Drew4au (Feb 17, 2013)

mulligan said:


> Thanks again, everyone, for your very kind suggestions, and they prompt another question. Where are the best places to buy tweed jackets and other items? I'm familiar with Andover Shop, but don't know much else about where the best is to be found. Also, I'd rather not break the bank with a jacket purchase, though I'm certainly willing to pay for quality. Any suggestions along these lines?
> 
> Many thanks.


If you're willing to pay for quality, by all means call the Andover Shop. I know a few clergy folk in Boston who shop there, and the folks there could steer you in the right direction about what would look good. Or save money, buy a gray herringbone jacket off of eBay, and invest in clerical shirts from some place other than Almy. Those things are hideous.


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Drew4au said:


> If you're willing to pay for quality, by all means call the Andover Shop. ...invest in clerical shirts from some place other than Almy. Those things are hideous.


You're right about that. I'm not a big fan of clerical shirts anyway. I'd much rather make use of a cassock or clerical vest. Clergy shirts are always, it seems to me anyway, of terrible quality and cut much too generously to fit properly.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Surely there has to be a source for good quality clerical shirts somewhere. I can't imagine they're all polyester/cotton jobbies made in China.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Surely there has to be a source for good quality clerical shirts somewhere. I can't imagine they're all polyester/cotton jobbies made in China.


Well, the problem is more complex than one might imagine. A "clerical shirt," a black button-up with a rabat in place of a modern fold-down collar, is largely an Anglo-American phenomenon. To the extent that it finds commonplace use elsewhere in the world, it's something of a recent innovation.

But where are the best makers of clerical clothing? The answer is not "England" or "the United States." No, the best clerical tailors are in Rome, places like Gammarelli. But your average American doesn't really have access to those guys. He has access to outfits like Leaflet Missal, which sells, you guessed it, . Take the general decline in the quality of clothing manufacturing over the last fifty years, and combine it with an even more precipitous decline in appreciation for well-made things among people in control of Catholic art and accoutrements over the same period (it's all rather complex and embarrassing), and the net result is a situation in which it's hard for a seminarian to find himself some good work clothes.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Has anyone tried Whippell's or Watts and Co?


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## mulligan (Feb 2, 2013)

Tilton said:


> Has anyone tried Whippell's or Watts and Co?


Actually, no. I've never heard of Wippell's, but I have heard good things about Watts. They have some very nice fabrics for the manufacture of vestments, but as far as clothing is concerned, I'm afraid I hadn't given them much thought.


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## Drew4au (Feb 17, 2013)

mulligan said:


> Actually, no. I've never heard of Wippell's, but I have heard good things about Watts. They have some very nice fabrics for the manufacture of vestments, but as far as clothing is concerned, I'm afraid I hadn't given them much thought.


Wippell's is -- how shall we put it? --unlikely to show up on the radar screen on your side of the Tiber. They tend to keep a low profile (the website has been "coming soon" since the Oxford Movement), but they do excellent work. I'm a layman, so I don't have much cause to wear clerical shirts, but the craftsmanship of their vestments is an order of magnitude better than most I've seen. Worth a call to see when they're doing trunk shows in your neck of the woods.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Ah, that might explain the lack of information I found searching. I asked one of the guys I work with and he said he likes Wippell's the best but only owned one shirt from them. He travels to Rome several times per year, so that makes sense. I didn't realize their website had been so long coming.


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