# Who here actually owns a solid black suit?



## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

I was told by a salesman black is the new blue, but I'm thinking I can get by without a solid black suit.

Twenty years ago, I owned black suits, but haven't purchased one since. 

I don't go clubbing, so don't think I really have the need for one. 

I've been to a couple of weddings and funerals lately, and was able to wear a charcoal windowpane with no negative comments.


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

I have one, a very tasteful Zegna. It doesn't get much traffic these days, but used to get out quite a bit. While I wouldn't wear it to a wedding, I have no qualms about wearing it to a funeral or orchestra (the accessories would have to be appropriately dressed up for the occasion).


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

poorboy said:


> Twenty years ago, I owned black suits, but haven't purchased one since.


I bought one in 1967 and sold it in 1970 after finding I never wore it.

I was unduly influenced by the natty bad guy (on the right)









in _From Russia with Love.
_


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## Mr. A. (Aug 30, 2012)

I own a mtm one button, shawl collar black dinner suit, a mtm two button, black notch collar, and a mtm two button, black peak lapel 3 piece suit I picked up this afternoon.

I worked in heavy rough construction, my work cloths have always been denim jeans, heavy leather boots, T and flannel shirts. The only time I wear a suit, is when dressing for dinner or taking the wife out on the town.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Me. And I intend to wear it regularly during the theater and concert season.


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

I have a simple black DB San Remo suit (3 into 2, modest peak lapels) that I got from Boyds about 20 years ago. My wife and I both love it, and I'll wear it whenever a dark suit is appropriate and I'm in the mood for this one. With good shirt, tie and pocket silk, it's just another dark suit (and a very nice one). This is one of the first suits I bought upon discovering how well Italian suits fit me and how little alteration they needed compared to American and British.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Yes. It has a very nice fine herringbone weave to it which makes it look much better and less formal than a solid plain fabric. Since I usually wear suits to go out to dinner it works pretty well for me.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

I have a black 3 button Dunhill/Zegna suit. It is one of the suits I wear in the evenings and I am very happy with it. 

In the days I was regularly wearing suits to the office I once wore it as a day suit just to see what reaction (if any) I would get. I was told on several occasions that day that I was "looking sharp". I wasn't really sure whether people genuinely thought that I looked sharp or whether they were just noticing a change and deciding to comment on it favourably...

This was just an experiment though and my standard practice is to wear black, if at all, in the evening.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I don't think I've ever owned/worn a black suit (other than a Tux or Dinner jacket, if either of those might count in a stretch?), but I have seen others wearing black suits and doing so to good effect. I pretty certain I won't be buying one, but the OP and others might me well served in doing so!


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

I have a silk/wool mix that I wear in the evening.


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## mhj (Oct 27, 2010)

A black suit seems to be the standard uniform for residency and fellowship interviews in medicine.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Haffman said:


> I have a black 3 button Dunhill/Zegna suit. It is one of the suits I wear in the evenings and I am very happy with it. In the days I was regularly wearing suits to the office I once wore it as a day suit just to see what reaction (if any) I would get. I was told on several occasions that day that I was "looking sharp". I wasn't really sure whether people genuinely thought that I looked sharp or whether they were just noticing a change and deciding to comment on it favourably...This was just an experiment though and my standard practice is to wear black, if at all, in the evening.


Black is very sharp - depends a lot on your complexion (high contrast - fair skin dark hair) in terms of how you look in it. Not everyone can pull it off and it certainly is safer as a night color. I think it also is a great urban color - which makes sense given its roots. I became very partial to black when I lived in NYC for 8 years. Much less so now but a nice black suit for a night on the town never looks bad.....Kind of the equivalent of the "little black dress" for women.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

poorboy said:


> I was told by a salesman black is the new blue, but I'm thinking I can get by without a solid black suit.
> 
> Twenty years ago, I owned black suits, but haven't purchased one since.
> 
> ...


I don't think you have to have a black suit - depends on how many suits you own - I would choose a dark gray and a dark navy before black. The general consensus is that it is a bit too formal a color for most situations and therefore not a very practical suit to own.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

I have a modern, 3-piece black day suit that I wear for funerals only-with a black necktie.


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## paul winston (Jun 3, 2006)

There are more black suits sold than any other color. In the 50+ years that I have been in the "business" I can count on one hand the number of black suits I have sold. ( That does not count dinner suits and black blazers.) My customers have always opted for navy and charcoal gray rather than black. You do not need a black suit.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

paul winston said:


> There are more black suits sold than any other color. In the 50+ years that I have been in the "business" I can count on one hand the number of black suits I have sold. ( That does not count dinner suits and black blazers.) My customers have always opted for navy and charcoal gray rather than black. You do not need a black suit.


This is probably the most significant comment of the thread, so far. Even though black is the most common color sold OTR, those who know enough to seek out the expertise of someone like Paul Winston know better than to chose black. The times when a black suit is appropriate are few and far between and a charcoal or navy suit can fill in just fine.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Own a black suit? No thanks


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

My first suit was a black one. Lauren by RL. I bought it off the rack at Belk my freshman year and had a military tailor take it in for a more "athletic" fit. I have worn it about a dozen time in three and a half years between frat/sorority formals.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

I just posted this in the WAYWT thread, so I'll add it here too.

My thoughts on black suits, and on why I wouldn't buy one / why they're so widely disliked on the internet. Note that my first suit was black, and it served me well from age 8-age 12.

A) I don't look too good wearing black above my waist, so I wouldn't buy one if I had a choice. Quite a lot of people fall into this category.
B) Black does not go with everything. It doesn't really outright clash with much of anything, but it tends to amplify other colors worn with it and can lead to too much boldness. It think it takes marginally less color sense to wear gray or navy well, and both of those colors are more flattering to most people.
C) 9/10s of the awful suits you see men wearing are black, and usually these awful suits are paired with badly selected shirts/ties/shoes.


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## EverChanging (Dec 3, 2011)

Yes. 1 two button SB in black...a more fitted suit than i wear in the day used very occassionaly for an evening out. 

I can see why black is the suit colour most sold....if only because there seems to be a plethora of that colour suit in cheaper stores on the high street. Amongst younger professionals my experience is that the various shades of grey are the most common. With blue/navy being more common in slightly older age groups. 

Black is typically fine for evenings....of course black tie being the most formal eveningwear. However, that being said if I were to buy a tux now I'd definitely opt for midnight blue and so likewise with the lounge suit for evenings out I think you can do without black. This would especially make sense if you would prefer to have a suit which you can wear both in the day and the night, for business or pleasure.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

I have a black sport jacket which I bought many years ago before I found AAAC....I still wear it from time to time to a funeral, but that is pretty much it.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

I have a DB suit in a Dormeuil cloth - but it's not a "solid" black. There's a black on black weave and a very fine green thread stripe that's only consciously detectable in very bright light.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

I own one. It's a JAB. I wear it like a work suit at night. Everyone seems to like it. Which is really weird.

Not very luxurious to wear, but no one touches it either.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Does midnight navy count? It kinda looks black until you stand next to someone actually wearing black.


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## Sese (Oct 13, 2008)

My father (former textile professional) stopped me several times from buying black suits instead of blue ones and he was right. Dark blue can be everything from formal to relaxed. Black is never really elegant, bit boring and never really fits to anything. (Talking about daily use suits.) Go blue.


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## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

2 solid black suits and a striped 1) 3 button Jos A Bank Signature black suit. Got it with the BOGO free, a navy. 2) Corneliani 3 button, black with black stripes. Pick stitching on the lapel. I get many compliments on this one. 3) Black 2 button, Jos A Bank with some sort of cream/ecru and red tinge strip going on. Not solid black and more to the charcoal grey side of black, but not a true charcoal grey. I'll not replace #1, and #2, well, other lawyers seem to ask me where I got it and #3 really should not be held against me.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

poorboy said:


> I was told by a salesman black is the new blue, ...


Actually, department store salesmen are the new used car salesmen.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

mhj said:


> A black suit seems to be the standard uniform for residency and fellowship interviews in medicine.


How unfortunate.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

The first suit I bought as an adult was black. The salesman told me it was the most versatile, so if I only owned one suit, it should be black. I struggled to find the right tie for it even without knowing anything about how to pair a tie with a suit. I never felt right in it during the day. Anyway, it hangs in my closet, neglected, waiting for the next funeral. I don't include it in my suit rotation.


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

mhj said:


> A black suit seems to be the standard uniform for residency and fellowship interviews in medicine.


This may be geographic, as it's not been my observation and I've been an east coast academic surgeon for 36 years. My institution has about 1000 residents and fellows (20 and 4 in my own department).


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## cincydavid (May 21, 2012)

I bought a solid black JAB 2 button suit at Goodwill recently for $8, it'll come in handy at work...I work in a cemetery and funeral home combination...


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## srmd22 (Jun 30, 2009)

I own one JAB signature two button herringbone, and it looks great (for what it is). I wore it to a wedding last weekend-- it was a small wedding, and most of the men there were in black suits. I thought they looked pretty good.

I also have a dark charcoal, almost black, plaid Armani, that fits much better than the JAB, was more $$, and looks better. I have gotten compliments on both.

I don't know if my complexion is right for a black suit (I have medium brown hair, mostly gone, and the rest buzzed close, and Flusser says that is the wrong color for a black suit), but family and friends like the look, and my wife prefers black suits on me (I also own light grey, medium blue, navy and charcoal).

Contrary to many, some of us believe black is quite acceptable and versatile, but I do agree that for day time work environment a lighter shade/charcoal or different color is probably preferable, generally. But occasionally I wear a black suit to work, and though it does feel a bit formal, it works. I say all this knowing full well that the more experienced and traditional members preach otherwise (regarding black as generally evil in anything but formal wear), and I am respectful of there view. 

Having said all that, other then for a funeral, I will generally go to the charcoal Armani, rather then the JAB, but more because it fits so much better (I am like one of the above posters, who learned a bit later on in the clothing hobby that the Italian fit looks better on my frame then the English/American).


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

poorboy said:


> I was told by a salesman black is the new blue,


Glubghgsfhsk. I'm sorry if this comes off as catty, but this why salespeople are not reliable anymore. There are exceptions of course, but on the whole... yikes!



poorboy said:


> but I'm thinking I can get by without a solid black suit.
> 
> Twenty years ago, I owned black suits, but haven't purchased one since.
> 
> ...


You are right. There is no real need for a black suit in one's wardrobe.

Years ago I bought my first suit... it was black. The salesman advised me to get charcoal. Being "young and dumb", I insisted. However, he also wanted me to get a three button due to my build. Two button is a decision I still stand by. :icon_smile_big:


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## Olifter (Jun 9, 2012)

I suppose I will take a beating here, but I have four, one a JAB sig gold 3 button, one a 2 button platinum JAB that has a tonal stripe, and another that is a 3B cashmere blend, heavier, that I wear in the winter. I also have a windowpane traveler 3B. I know JABs are cheap suits, and not at all favored here, but they fit me well (48R) and I have had good luck with them. 

While I prefer navy, grey, olive and dark grey, etc., I do like black. I get a lot of compliments when wearing them, perhaps more due to the ties? I see many others wearing black suits. Until joining here, I did not know they were, "inappropriate" and subsequently, for some reason, I find myself wearing black less, maybe once or twice a month.

I wear a suit every day and I have a lot of them. I suppose if I could have only five, black would not be one of the five. If I could have ten, probably two would be black. That's just me.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

RTW Gieves single-breasted (two-buttons) - now exclusively funeral-wear. Saying that, I do not get much wear out of my one navy suit; I prefer grey suits.

A work-colleague has three suits, all plain black; he only buys black suits. Black seems the go-to-suit for new employees, not just junior staff but at management and board-level too. Our new CEO seems to own many black suits and one navy suit.


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## sartoriallytactical (Dec 9, 2011)

I do, but I have multiple greys, blue, brown and olive, too. It doesn't get much use but there are occasions. Like the funeral I went to Tuesday. Honestly, I think those of us inside the bubble spend way more time thinking about the difference between black, navy and charcoal suits than 99% of the people who see us in suits.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes, a two button wool Evan Picone from Macy's, I believe. I bought it years ago before I really paid attention to such things, thinking I looked like a "Reservoir Dog" when I wore it. It has come in handy for a number of funerals, and I did wear it to at least 3 weddings as well as to a James Bond party. I must admit, the ladies did indeed like the look, but we were all so much younger back then. I don't own any other suits (plenty of blazers and sport coats), but I will soon take delivery on a Southwick sack in charcoal glen plaid, which will probably become my new go-to. I'm excited!


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## msphotog (Jul 5, 2006)

I also own one, a black herringbone cashmere, but I'm giving it away. I've lost weight and it doesn't fit anyway, so that works out great for me!


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Flanderian said:


> I bought one in 1967 and sold it in 1970 after finding I never wore it.
> 
> I was unduly influenced by the natty bad guy (on the right)
> 
> ...


But he didn't wear a black.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Certainly. SBPL tuxedo. Every man should have one. And a vintage 1980 nylon black running suit that almosts still fits. Around 10 degrees the sweat wicks through and it looks more gray/white, but it still stays warm.


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## Ekul974 (Sep 15, 2012)

The first suit I got in High School was black. I wear it for various things still, primarily church and band or orchestra concerts (when I don't wear my tux, but still need to dress up in black) and things like that. I think it fits my complexion well enough to get away with for a lot of things (pale skin and very dark hair). I get a lot of compliments on it, actually.

I'm still in college too. If I was working, I would wear more navy or charcoal. For my current needs, black is fine when I need a suit.


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## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

paul winston said:


> There are more black suits sold than any other color.


Based on my observations, I can believe this. When my co workers have to wear a suit, it's invariably a black one and cheap. They think they look good, but I think it's because of the novelty for them wearing a suit.


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## StylinLa (Feb 15, 2009)

I own and sometimes wear a black suit. I live in Los Angeles. I think it was a requirement to have one here in the entertainment industry.

This city has gotten so casual that wearing a black suit now might get you mistaken for a town car driver. 

I dressed nicely recently to go shopping and was constantly peppered with questions by other customers.


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## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

StylinLa said:


> I own and sometimes wear a black suit. I live in Los Angeles. I think it was a requirement to have one here in the entertainment industry.
> 
> This city has gotten so casual that wearing a black suit now might get you mistaken for a town car driver.
> 
> I dressed nicely recently to go shopping and was constantly peppered with questions by other customers.


Regardless of your skin colour, that's another reason not to wear a black suit during the daytime. Black is a very popular colour in the service industry.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

paul winston said:


> There are more black suits sold than any other color. In the 50+ years that I have been in the "business" I can count on one hand the number of black suits I have sold. ( That does not count dinner suits and black blazers.) My customers have always opted for navy and charcoal gray rather than black. You do not need a black suit.





Jovan said:


> Glubghgsfhsk. I'm sorry if this comes off as catty, but this why salespeople are not reliable anymore. There are exceptions of course, but on the whole... yikes!


Just wanted to point out that Mr. Winston is a definite exception to the rule.



Matt S said:


> But he didn't wear a black.


Indeed, he wore a grey/brown.



StylinLa said:


> I own and sometimes wear a black suit. I live in Los Angeles. I think it was a requirement to have one here in the entertainment industry.
> 
> This city has gotten so casual that wearing a black suit now might get you mistaken for a town car driver.
> 
> I dressed nicely recently to go shopping and was constantly peppered with questions by other customers.


This happens when I so much as wear an OCBD and khakis.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Jovan said:


> .......
> ......
> 
> You are right. There is no real need for a black suit in one's wardrobe.
> ...


LOL...and you still would be wrong. With your trim physique, embrace the three button design as ling as you can pull it off. Your later years and the expanding waistlines frequently associated with the autumns of our respective lives, provide us with more than ample opportunity to rock the two button designs...and even those black suits, I suppose?


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

We clearly have no priests on the forum.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I have a black suit but it doesn't fit me anymore, I may have to purchase one in the near future.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

We have what is labeled as the best hotel school in the world here in Lausanne and they issue all their students a black suit before classes start. This is for use for the service portion of the courses. Suits are actually the school dress code & must be worn on campus on school days before 2000 (except for kitchen related courses). Happily most of the students don't appear to wear the issued black to class (besides being black it's not particularly a nice suit by any measure).


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Another reason to disparage the black suit - you might be confused for being part of the staff. And you could wear an impeccable tuxedo to the theatre and be confused for being part of the orchestra. I guess that is the risk one takes.....


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

Trimmer said:


> We clearly have no priests on the forum.


Not a priest...but I almost hesitate to throw this in for fear of tainting the waters!

I wear a black suit quite often in my line of work - I am a minister. I trot it out for every wedding and funeral. The charcoal, navy pin-stripe and others come out the rest of the time. A brief exchange I had with one of the masses one day (not a member of my church):

Random person: Hey, you look like an undertaker. Where's the funeral?
Me: The church by the high school at 2 o'clock. I am officiating. 
Random person: Ulp.

Make of this what you will.


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## cincydavid (May 21, 2012)

Yup, P&G I've had the same discussion..."you're all dressed up, going to a funeral?" My response, "yup, we have 5 of them today and 7 tomorrow", which generally shuts them up. I have 3 tomorrow between 10 and 1, gonna be a little hectic...I hope they are all on time getting in the gate, a late arrival fouls up the whole schedule.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

JBierly said:


> Another reason to disparage the black suit - you might be confused for being part of the staff. And you could wear an impeccable tuxedo to the theatre and be confused for being part of the orchestra. I guess that is the risk one takes.....


But then, if you're wearing an ill-fitting rental tux you are apt to be mistaken for staff.


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

I managed to avoid the black suit purchase for a long time and was lucky enough to have a navy pinstripe as my first suit and then a charcoal pinstripe as the second. It's unfortunate, but I think so many kids today don't bother learning much before buying their first suit and end up with one those ugly black suits. Whatever happened to the old Mr. Malloy column in the newspaper?

Only later after having a number of regulars in the rotation did I buy a DKNY black 3 button with a light stripe weave that I used for going out to dinners/clubs. I later picked up a D&G black suit made with a silk/wool blend for nights when it is a bit hotter.


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## TheBarbaron (Oct 8, 2010)

paul winston said:


> There are more black suits sold than any other color. In the 50+ years that I have been in the "business" I can count on one hand the number of black suits I have sold. ( That does not count dinner suits and black blazers.) My customers have always opted for navy and charcoal gray rather than black. You do not need a black suit.


While not in the same league as Mr. Winston (hell, not even playing the same sport yet), I have a three strikes rule with customers before I'll sell them a black suit. A customer has to ask me three times to buy a black suit; to the first request, I will respond lightly that I'd recommend a navy or charcoal instead for most events "festive to funeral". To the second request, I will go into a modicum of detail about the formal, evening specificity of black compared to the all purpose goodness of other neutrals. To the third, I will inform them that though I wear a suit (or sportcoat) six days a week, I do not own, and do not plan to own a black suit. If they still want one at that point, may they wear it in health.

I owned a black suit in high school (Stafford, I think, though it was wool at least). I own a dinner jacket now, and a black "clubbing" blazer with some sort of charcoal graphic design on the back (purchased for $40 on clearance). If I own a black, non-formal wear suit someday, it will be reserved for funerals only.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Gurdon said:


> But then, if you're wearing an ill-fitting rental tux you are apt to be mistaken for staff.


Ill-fitting.....perhaps deservedly so.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> LOL...and you still would be wrong. With your trim physique, embrace the three button design as ling as you can pull it off. Your later years and the expanding waistlines frequently associated with the autumns of our respective lives, provide us with more than ample opportunity to rock the two button designs...and even those black suits, I suppose?


You calling me wrong, old man?! :mad2:

In all seriousness, I do not like how the majority of modern three button suits look on me or anyone else.



Howard said:


> I have a black suit but it doesn't fit me anymore, I may have to purchase one in the near future.


How many years have you been here, Howard? Have you been paying any attention at all? :icon_smile_big:


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## Sober (Jul 31, 2012)

I think black suits are far less popular over here in Europe than they are in the US. Leaving aside people working in the hospitality industry and of course priests, I've seen very few people wearing them in the many Western European countries I've been to. I personally dislike them.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

bluesman said:


> This may be geographic, as it's not been my observation and I've been an east coast academic surgeon for 36 years. My institution has about 1000 residents and fellows (20 and 4 in my own department).


Agreed 100%. I have also been involved with residency training and interviewing for over 25 years at a large institution, and my experience has paralleled Bluesman.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Jovan said:


> You calling me wrong, old man?! :mad2:
> 
> In all seriousness, I do not like how the majority of modern three button suits look on me or anyone else.
> 
> How many years have you been here, Howard? Have you been paying any attention at all? :icon_smile_big:


Well Jovan I've been here 8 years but thing is, the last time I was fitted for a suit was 2008, lately there hasn't been any parties or bar-mitzsvahs that we've been invited to but when the time comes I will look into getting a new black suit.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

What I'm saying is that you should know to get charcoal or navy by now.


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## richardnoggin (Jul 11, 2012)

Allow me to comment. I travel 80% of the time and my trips always include a RL black suit because I find them stylish and very easy to pair shirts and ties with. I perform 1 hour plus workshops with an average of 40 sharp minded guys and gals and I often am complimented on my appearance and dress. Black works well for me and I will continue to use the color until the road travel is overwith and I no longer have to make one or two suits "work" for my presentations and court appearances. 
Ric


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

richardnoggin said:


> Allow me to comment. I travel 80% of the time and my trips always include a RL black suit because I find them stylish and very easy to pair shirts and ties with. I perform 1 hour plus workshops with an average of 40 sharp minded guys and gals and I often am complimented on my appearance and dress. Black works well for me and I will continue to use the color until the road travel is overwith and I no longer have to make one or two suits "work" for my presentations and court appearances.
> Ric


Richard, trade in your black for a charcoal. You will look better. Trust me on this.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Never have, never will. It was something my mother said. I was going to look for a picture to make the point, but what I came up with was this: these guys look fantastic (except for the eyes of the guy in the center back. That's creepy).


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

P Hudson said:


> Never have, never will. It was something my mother said. I was going to look for a picture to make the point, but what I came up with was this: these guys look fantastic (except for the eyes of the guy in the center back. That's creepy).
> View attachment 5269


What's creepier are the other guys, who stared straight ahead without blinking or moving their eyes for about a minute or so -- that's kind of unnervingly precise.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

i own & wear a black suit... i am, however, in the service industry and the suit is reserved only for the 16-20 weddings i host annually...


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## pantofi (Sep 22, 2012)

A black suit is a must have in a man's wardrobe. 
I actually have 2 black suits...


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

pantofi said:


> A black suit is a must have in a man's wardrobe.


Is that some kind of rule? I've made it 50 years without one, and that isn't going to change.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

P Hudson said:


> Is that some kind of rule? I've made it 50 years without one, and that isn't going to change.


Nope. There's no such rule. I find that navy and charcoal can do everything better than black, as has been stated on this forum by many people countless times.


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## mhdena (Jan 4, 2008)

Its way to much "group think" here and the other site when it comes to black suits. Most of you don't like black shoes either.

I've always had a black suit available but I've had grays and navy blues also with more navy's than gray.

Also amongst, Asians, Blacks, Latinos black is very (more) popular, like another fellow said "the male equivalent to the little black dress".

There's a time and place for everything, and many times when black is suitable and desired.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Wait, what? I wasn't aware there was prejudice against black shoes here. I certainly don't harbor it, in any case.

It's not groupthink, we're taking after people who know what they are talking about. Paul Winston, who owns one of the most influential menswear stores in the USA, says that you don't need a black suit. So do many other menswear experts.

It's not groupthink to know that full canvas is the best method of constructing a suit either.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Wait, what? I wasn't aware there was prejudice against black shoes here. I certainly don't harbor it, in any case.
> 
> It's not groupthink, we're taking after people who know what they are talking about. Paul Winston, who owns one of the most influential menswear stores in the USA, says that you don't need a black suit. So do many other menswear experts.
> 
> It's not groupthink to know that full canvas is the best method of constructing a suit either.


Excellent post, except that I really am prejudiced against black shoes. But then this isn't the trad forum.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks, but I thought Trads loved their black longwings.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^LOL,
...and their black cap toes!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Jovan said:


> What I'm saying is that you should know to get charcoal or navy by now.


next time our family is invited to a party or wedding or bar-mitzvah I'll look into it.


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

*Just for funerals*

Hello All, I bought a three button down black suit just for that reason ,funerals and somber events, please don't tell me now that I am wrong for buying and wearing a black suit. 
More to the point though , why is it such a no no?

All the Best , Fashion Frank


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Fashion Frank said:


> Hello All, I bought a three button down black suit just for that reason ,funerals and somber events, please don't tell me now that I am wrong for buying and wearing a black suit.
> More to the point though , why is it such a no no?
> 
> All the Best , Fashion Frank


Frank, you're not wrong. "Funerals and somber events" are probably the ONLY times when a black suit is entirely appropriate for daytime wear. That being said, a charcoal or navy suit is also perfectly acceptable in that situation. Therefore, it's entirely feasible for someone to never own a black suit and still be appropriately attired for every occasion.

I own a black suit. I had to purchase it for my sister-in-laws wedding because the groom insisted that the ushers all wear black suits. It now sits in the back of my closet waiting for an event that I will undoubtedly take no pleasure in attending.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

The closest I've ever come is a very dark grey suit. Other than that, nope.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

hardline_42 said:


> Frank, you're not wrong. "Funerals and somber events" are probably the ONLY times when a black suit is entirely appropriate for daytime wear. That being said, a charcoal or navy suit is also perfectly acceptable in that situation. Therefore, it's entirely feasible for someone to never own a black suit and still be appropriately attired for every occasion.
> 
> I own a black suit. I had to purchase it for my sister-in-laws wedding because the groom insisted that the ushers all wear black suits. It now sits in the back of my closet waiting for an event that I will undoubtedly take no pleasure in attending.


Exactly right.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

So on the contrary, is it always appropriate to wear a black suit for night events? (assuming a suit is appropriate in the first place - not talking about a barbecue on the lake after 6 pm)


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

JBierly said:


> So on the contrary, is it always appropriate to wear a black suit for night events? (assuming a suit is appropriate in the first place - not talking about a barbecue on the lake after 6 pm)


I believe it is, but why wear black when navy can do it better?


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## Mr. A. (Aug 30, 2012)

I have a few thoughts on this... If one wears a suit for business/work, a black suit may not be the right choice and for more somber and serious events like funerals and weddings charcoal/navy will do in a pinch.

When dressing for the evening, nothing says class and style like a black suit with a white shirt, I have yet to see a man that looked bad in that combo. Black may not be the first choice in a suit for daily wear... It is the only choice for evening attire (other than a midnight blue dinner jack), period.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Howard said:


> next time our family is invited to a party or wedding or bar-mitzvah I'll look into it.


:icon_scratch: I think you missed my point...



Mr. A. said:


> I have a few thoughts on this... If one wears a suit for business/work, a black suit may not be the right choice and for more somber and serious events like funerals and weddings charcoal/navy will do in a pinch.
> 
> When dressing for the evening, nothing says class and style like a black suit with a white shirt, I have yet to see a man that looked bad in that combo. Black may not be the first choice in a suit for daily wear... It is the only choice for evening attire (other than a midnight blue dinner jack), period.


So I'd be badly dressed in a navy suit at night? Sorry, I just don't agree here.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Mr. A. said:


> I have a few thoughts on this... If one wears a suit for business/work, a black suit may not be the right choice and for more somber and serious events like funerals and weddings charcoal/navy will do in a pinch.
> 
> When dressing for the evening, nothing says class and style like a black suit with a white shirt, I have yet to see a man that looked bad in that combo. Black may not be the first choice in a suit for daily wear... It is the only choice for evening attire (other than a midnight blue dinner jack), period.


Solid black has traditionally not been acceptable for lounge suits but has been reserved for dinner jackets, though in recent years has gained a following among Hollywood types and the youngish men who emulate them. Accordingly while still not considered appropriate for business suits (at least in large law firms, accounting firms, and banking), they are considered "way cool" by guys who think clubbing is way cool, which is fine of course. But if one is invited to a cocktail party, the notion that a black lounge suit is the only or even best choice is one of the sillier things I've read in this forum.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If by traditionally you mean the last century, then yes. But in the late 19th and early 20th century black was the de rigeur colour for lounge suits worn in the city.

... Because it made you look less dirty from all that damn soot in the air.

If I recall correctly, men were free to wear suits in a wider variety of colours and patterns once that wasn't much of a problem.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Jovan said:


> If by traditionally you mean the last century, then yes. But in the late 19th and early 20th century black was the de rigeur colour for lounge suits worn in the city.
> 
> ... Because it made you look less dirty from all that damn soot in the air.
> 
> If I recall correctly, men were free to wear suits in a wider variety of colours and patterns once that wasn't much of a problem.


Yes, by traditionally I meant the last century.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Jovan said:


> If by traditionally you mean the last century, then yes. But in the late 19th and early 20th century black was the de rigeur colour for lounge suits worn in the city.
> 
> ... Because it made you look less dirty from all that damn soot in the air.
> 
> If I recall correctly, men were free to wear suits in a wider variety of colours and patterns once that wasn't much of a problem.


If you recall correctly? Why Jovan you are looking very well for a gentleman of such advanced years. :icon_smile_wink:


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Black suits? Don't own one now, never have and never will. The closest thing I have is a midnight blue suit.

Wearing a black suit to a funeral these days seems a bit theatrical and Mafia-ish, at least to me.

Black suits with bold pin or chalk stripes are a bit flashy, but I don't put them in the same category as the solid black suit.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> Black suits? Don't own one now, never have and never will. The closest thing I have is a midnight blue suit.
> 
> Wearing a black suit to a funeral these days seems a bit theatrical and Mafia-ish, at least to me.
> 
> Black suits with bold pin or chalk stripes are a bit flashy, but I don't put them in the same category as the solid black suit.


Agreed, including re funerals, which is not to say they are wrong -- black suits at a funeral are entirely proper -- just not my preference for the reason suggested.


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

hardline_42 said:


> Frank, you're not wrong. "Funerals and somber events" are probably the ONLY times when a black suit is entirely appropriate for daytime wear. That being said, a charcoal or navy suit is also perfectly acceptable in that situation. Therefore, it's entirely feasible for someone to never own a black suit and still be appropriately attired for every occasion.


Hardline_42 ,Thank you for the tip.

I do in fact have a grey suit and also a charcoal one with fine "silver" pinstrips, doublebreasted and ,yes both could work if I didn't already have a black suit .

The double breasted one with my black homberg hat and its a toss up between the godfather and a funeral home director.

In fact the last funeral I went to in my three button black suit ,highly polished shoes with a black fedora , the funeral home director asked me if I wanted a part time job and gave me her business card ! :icon_smile_big:

All the Best , Fashion Frank


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Shaver said:


> If you recall correctly? Why Jovan you are looking very well for a gentleman of such advanced years. :icon_smile_wink:


If I recall correctly from my education in clothing history.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

I have a black Brooks Brothers 3-button that I bought specifically because I expected to be attending a funeral. I've worn it only a few times in the last eight years, fortunately.

On a similar topic, a lady I know used to work in the men's department at Marshall Field's. No one wore black pants back then but waiters, and they were hard on them. She developed a strong clientele of waiters who would buy every pair of black pants that came in.

She was invited to a bachelor party at a strip club and fought to get out of going, considering it tasteless and inappropriate. She relented, and discovered that most of the entertainers were moonlighting waiters that knew her by name!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I've never owned a black suit. Why would I? 

I've owned or still own navy, light grey, very light grey, a mid-bluey-grey with a faint pattern, a wool mid-blue small check, a PoW, natural linen, charcoal.


But black? No thanks!


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## srmd22 (Jun 30, 2009)

Why do 90% of news anchors and night time (and some day time) tv reporters (at least in the US) wear black suits with white or blue shirts 90% of the time? I am thinking of guys like Piers Morgan (an English guy), Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, Ed Schultz, Lawrece O'Donnell, Sean Hannity, Steve Doocy, etc.

I am not saying you don't see some grey, blue, even brown jackets, but it sure seems to be predominantly black. Even really sophisticated guys, like Fareed Zakariah. What does it mean?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

srmd22 said:


> Why do 90% of news anchors and night time (and some day time) tv reporters (at least in the US) wear black suits with white or blue shirts 90% of the time? I am thinking of guys like Piers Morgan (an English guy), Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, Ed Schultz, Lawrece O'Donnell, Sean Hannity, Steve Doocy, etc.
> 
> I am not saying you don't see some grey, blue, even brown jackets, but it sure seems to be predominantly black. Even really sophisticated guys, like Fareed Zakariah. What does it mean?


Oxford grey and navy really are quite dark and studio lights throw color off. I doubt most of them are wearing black.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

So it is ok to wear blue black, brown black, grey black, but just not black black......


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

^ it's okay to wear whatever you want! 
One just rarely looks their best in a black lounge suit!


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## loarbmhs (Sep 17, 2011)

*For Gosh Sakes, No Black Suit*

I agree with Paul Winston. No black suit--except a tuxedo for black tie events. The only two exceptions: 1) you're in the entertainment biz and part of a mindless horde that got the crazy idea that black was chic, or 2) you're angling for a job on the wait staff aboard a cruise ship.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

firedancer said:


> ^ it's okay to wear whatever you want!
> One just rarely looks their best in a black lounge suit!


I think that depends a lot on your body type and complexion. If you are thin and have a high contrast complexion black can be extremely flattering. And if it is black tie - because of the lines it looks unbelievably good - there is nothing wrong with black - even in a lounge suit given the right complexion and build.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

^ disagree. There is nothing black can offer that dark navy and grey cannot. With the exception of infinitely more choices of shirts and ties to pair with it.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

srmd22 said:


> Why do 90% of news anchors and night time (and some day time) tv reporters (at least in the US) wear black suits with white or blue shirts 90% of the time? I am thinking of guys like Piers Morgan (an English guy), Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, Ed Schultz, Lawrece O'Donnell, Sean Hannity, Steve Doocy, etc.
> 
> I am not saying you don't see some grey, blue, even brown jackets, but it sure seems to be predominantly black. Even really sophisticated guys, like Fareed Zakariah. What does it mean?


Check out Chuck Scarborough on WNBC in New York for a roll-model news anchor. I've never seen him in black, and he always looks like he put thought into his clothes. I asked him about his clothes once and to my surprise he buys all his clothes off the rack, but he pays close attention to fit and always has the clothes altered.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

srmd22 said:


> Why do 90% of news anchors and night time (and some day time) tv reporters (at least in the US) wear black suits with white or blue shirts 90% of the time? I am thinking of guys like Piers Morgan (an English guy), Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, Ed Schultz, Lawrece O'Donnell, Sean Hannity, Steve Doocy, etc.
> 
> I am not saying you don't see some grey, blue, even brown jackets, but it sure seems to be predominantly black. Even really sophisticated guys, like Fareed Zakariah. What does it mean?


You need a better television. Holiday sales coming up soon!


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> You need a better television. Holiday sales coming up soon!


I just did a Google Image search for Anderson Cooper - on the first six pages, every picture of him wearing a tie he was in a solid black suit, except for three where he was wearing a grey chalkstripe. On page seven one begins to see distinctly charcoal or navy.

A late-'60s Neiman-Marcus Christmas catalog had a feature for Gittings photographers with a collection of portraits of Mr. & Mrs. Wyatt Cooper and family. Two-year-old Anderson was wearing an outfit made of a bright plaid patchwork, which was also used for Mrs. Cooper's ball skirt and Mr. Cooper's waistcoat.

His being aware of this photo shoot (which I can't find online) would understandably traumatize him into wearing solid colors almost exclusively.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Confession, I have a black DB linen suit by St. Andrews. Perfect for summer 20s theme parties as the anti-Gatsby.


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## srmd22 (Jun 30, 2009)

Miket61 said:


> I just did a Google Image search for Anderson Cooper - on the first six pages, every picture of him wearing a tie he was in a solid black suit, except for three where he was wearing a grey chalkstripe. On page seven one begins to see distinctly charcoal or navy...


Thank you for the vindication sir. I guess my TV is working after all, skeptics.ic12337: <-- not really sure what that graphic means, but feels right.


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## MichaelMartin (Sep 12, 2012)

I am a classical musician and many of the gigs I play which don't require a tuxedo prescribe an "all black" outfit, so I own a black suit for that purpose, worn with a black shirt. For general suit purposes, however, I much prefer charcoal or medium gray.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't get this thing about black suits. I have several black suits and I wear them to work all the time. It has nothing to do with funerals. My colleagues do the same. Who makes up these rules? Why would anyone follow them?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

With all due respect, read the pages before this one. You'll get your answer.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

*Read it, don't get it*

I read the thread, but it seems most who don't like black suits assume everyone understands the connotations in their minds. The closest I got to a straightforward statement of the problem was


> The general consensus is that it is a bit too formal a color for most situations and therefore not a very practical suit to own.


 Of course, that requires assumptions about what situations are too informal for a black suit, believing that being "too formal" is bad, and figuring that sufficiently formal occasions rarely occur. This and a few other threads had me checking the attire of colleagues in meetings this week. Lots of black suits. Hardly unusual in my workplace. And, other than the most idle curiosity, why would anyone care about what color suits TV personalities wear, or the opinion of a menswear expert? They are welcome to dress as they like, but why should anyone else use them as models? These are not rhetorical questions. I really mean it. Why?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> I read the thread, but it seems most who don't like black suits assume everyone understands the connotations in their minds. The closest I got to a straightforward statement of the problem was Of course, that requires assumptions about what situations are too informal for a black suit, believing that being "too formal" is bad, and figuring that sufficiently formal occasions rarely occur. This and a few other threads had me checking the attire of colleagues in meetings this week. Lots of black suits. Hardly unusual in my workplace. And, other than the most idle curiosity, why would anyone care about what color suits TV personalities wear, or the opinion of a menswear expert? They are welcome to dress as they like, but why should anyone else use them as models? These are not rhetorical questions. I really mean it. Why?


This is the thread to read, the mother of all black suit threads. While it may take a while to go through it, not only will you understand "Why?" but you will come across some of Michael Anton's classic posts written shortly before his book was published.https://www.styleforum.net/t/8221/is-black-suit-an-acceptable-business-attire


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

There was an excellent article by Sator about why black has got so much baggage but I can't find it now...


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

That SF thread, as long as I could put up with it, answered my question. Thanks.


Silly rules for silly people. I will cheerfully ignore.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

... not really. But do as you wish.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> That SF thread, as long as I could put up with it, answered my question. Thanks.
> 
> Silly rules for silly people. I will cheerfully ignore.


Whatever you do just make sure you don't hang your Black suit on wide shouldered wooden jacket hangers. 
I have seen no scientific evidence that they help a jacket keep its shape.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Orsini said:


> There was an excellent article by Sator about why black has got so much baggage but I can't find it now...


Cuff,

Is this is the article you refer to?

One must be a member of The Cutter and Tailor and be logged in to read the article.

Sator argues that the prohibition of black day suits is largely a myth and, as usual, cites and posts copies of a number of original sources that few have access to. His source material in not in dispute, but as I see it there is a fundamental flaw in the conclusions he draws from them. The sources discuss blue and grey day suits in a positive way but do not expressly "prohibit" black. Sator takes the absence of specific prohibition against black day suits as evidence that black day suits were acceptable. His argument fails because the absence of a prohibition does not mean acceptance. After all, the sources not only do not expressly prohibit black suits, they also fail to expressly prohibit pink, green, red or yellow suits.

(The sources do specifically approve of black for formal evening wear, as well as black jackets ,("coats" in the original),to be worn with cashmere stripe or black and white check pants for day wear, what we today would call a stroller.)

The source material is well worth looking at. For instance one of the sources informs that day gloves should be pale yellow or biscuit.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

JBierly said:


> I think that depends a lot on your body type and complexion. If you are thin and have a high contrast complexion black can be extremely flattering. And if it is black tie - because of the lines it looks unbelievably good - there is nothing wrong with black - even in a lounge suit given the right complexion and build.





firedancer said:


> There is nothing black can offer that dark navy and grey cannot. With the exception of infinitely more choices of shirts and ties to pair with it.


Currently, I agree with these statements.

dbhdbhdbh,

do you and your work colleagues have the complexion/hair colour of Tom Cruise or David Schwimmer (they have 'Winter' complexions)? If you and/or your colleagues do, then you will look terrific in black suit (if it is a well-fitted suit, of course). If you and/or your work colleagues don't have a 'Winter' complexion then it will look terrible.

If you and your colleagues do have a 'Winter' complexion ditch the black suits and invest in midnight blue suits -- they can appear blacker than black suits (dark as ink, that is) and, as firedancer points out, it will offer you a whole new universe of colours that can work gloriously with it.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I've weighed in on the black suit thing so often that I hesitate to wade into these waters again. Setting aside complexion issues, there are two factors that militate against wearing black suits in my mind:

1. Black makes other colors (real colors, not white or grey) look more garish/neon next to it. Black suits can take a perfectly workable blue or red tie and make it too shocking for my tastes. Don't believe me? Go get some crayons or markers. Color a red or blue or green or purple square. Look at it. Understand how bright it is. Remember that. Now draw a thick black outline around it. See how much more vivid it got? Put another un-outlined square nearby on the page if you've already forgotten what the colored square looked like before you put black around it.

That's not a problem if you're wearing black tie, since you won't have any other colors. It's a serious problem during the day. 

2. Where I live and work, black suits are considered trashy and/or nouveau riche. They are for eurotrash and 20-somethings buying their first suit. The men of sophistication, taste, and at least some money that I know hardly ever wear them. They wear grey or navy or charblue or olive or tan or brown or anything, ANYTHING but black.

I understand it is not that way everywhere. But it's what I've been around. I cannot set aside my long personal experience with them to be able to judge black suits without this connotation. Know that this connotation is out there in the world. You can ignore it, but that doesn't make it leave the minds of those who have it.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

> I have seen no scientific evidence that they help a jacket keep its shape.


Nor have I.

To explain "silly rules for silly people":

For these rules to have any applicability across industries, jobs, cities, and levels of seniority, one has to assume a very large homogeneity in perceptions of what looks "good" or "terrible." Have to assume that the rules are the same for entry level and senior level people. For those who meet the public, who meet only co-workers, for every variety of job description. One also has to assume that a large portion of the population cares, and cares deeply.

My male colleagues are overwhelmingly older white men, with the narrow range of complexions that implies. Hair, what is left of it, ranges from blond to black. No one is trying to look fabulous. They are trying to look serious, professional, stolid, and reliable. The field, the industry, and the particular institution are very conservative in behavior and dress.

If someone can talk about what looks "good" long enough to sustain a 70 page thread, let alone a book, then he is spending WAY too much time worrying about the appearance of clothes. WAY, WAY, too much time.

It is just not that important. I am not going to think more or less of someone because he was wearing a black vs grey suit. I probably am not even going to notice what color suit he wore, and I certainly will not remember. Other elaborate rules about what colors or clothes to wear for which situations are equally pointless. Reading some of these threads, I have started noting and counting how many people are wearing what. I did that for a meeting yesterday. I am sure AAAC people would be horrified at the results. More to the point, although I remember the numbers, I don't remember who wore what. And these were close colleagues, yesterday.

I accept that people in the fashion industry must try to convince consumers that they must constantly acquire new clothes to stay in "style." They have far more success with women than with men. To their frustration, there are many men who pick a small number of, say, tie patterns, or shirts. Then, for the next 50 years they simply replace a worn or soiled item with an identical one. Now, often doing it in 5 minutes online. Or have a secretary do it. No money to be made on them.

Hence my conclusion that the rules themselves are silly, as is caring enough about what they might say to bother to debate them.

You don't like black suits? Don't wear them. Try to convince others to abandon black in the daytime? Why bother? Why would you care?


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> Nor have I...


What you decry is the reason this forum exists. It is here so enthusiasts can fuss over fancy duds.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> My male colleagues are overwhelmingly older white men, with the narrow range of complexions that implies. Hair, what is left of it, ranges from blond to black. No one is trying to look fabulous. They are trying to look serious, professional, stolid, and reliable. The field, the industry, and the particular institution are very conservative in behavior and dress


Far from seeming 'serious, professional, stolid, and reliable' it sounds like some of your colleagues will appear washed-out, drained of colour, tired and groggy. If you don't notice this it doesn't mean no-one else will, like clients and so forth.

However, I do agree with you that a person shouldn't be judged because he wears grey or navy or black suit (that goes without saying). But I will perhaps be inclined (rightly or wrongly) to judge his aesthetic sensibility regarding clothing.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

> But I will perhaps be inclined (rightly or wrongly) to judge his aesthetic sensibility regarding clothing.


You could quite rightly decide whether his esthetic sensibility was similar to yours. If not, it would be difficult for you to tell whether he did not care at all, or preferred a different look, perhaps one for which you did not see the appeal.



> it sounds like some of your colleagues will appear washed-out, drained of colour, tired and groggy.


Could be, but as I said, beside the point. Not sure washed-out or drained of color are bad. Tired and groggy are probably problematic when one is supposed to be alert, but since one would be wearing the same clothes all day, I am not clear how one would decide someone is tired or groggy based on what they are wearing? Facial gestures, yawning, eyes closing, dozing off, those would be clues to fatigue. But the color of the suit? I don't see the relationship.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You don't seem to understand why you're ruffling feathers. What we take issue with is your assertion that they are "silly rules for silly people". We don't think any less of you for wearing black suits. However, you're dismissing something out of hand that has been said by all the leading authorities on menswear for good reasons. Presumably you read what Paul Winston said earlier in the thread, and he's been in the industry for half a century. He's been selling menswear longer than you and I have been alive!

Keep wearing black suits if you want. Just don't come on a clothing forum after two months' membership and tell us we're being "silly people" because we're following "silly rules" that have been followed by the best dressed men for a long time. "I understand why you dislike them, but I still like black suits," would have sufficed. You're only digging a hole for yourself at this point.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> You could quite rightly decide whether his esthetic sensibility was similar to yours. If not, it would be difficult for you to tell whether he did not care at all, or preferred a different look, perhaps one for which you did not see the appeal.


If so many of your colleagues are wearing black suits, then it sounds like high school, where everyone displayed their individuality by dressing exactly alike.

I disagree with the assessment that one looks washed-out or drained in a black suit; after all, the same cultural guideline that discourages black suits in daytime has no problem with a black coat with striped pants, and a form of black suit, the tuxedo, is considered to be uniformly flattering and elegant.

My objection to wearing a solid black suit (and as I've said earlier, I do own one) is that it either appears funereal or it appears to be a uniform. Limousine drivers wear black suits. Employees at Macy's wear black suits, although I think that's more in mourning for Marshall Field's, Rich's, Bullock's, and the dozens of other retailing giants crushed under the wheel of homogenization.

And, as Jovan seems to have pointed out, Internet trolls also wear black suits.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> Nor have I.
> 
> To explain "silly rules for silly people":
> 
> ...


How little you know, and how little you care that you don't know. While I could spend the rest of the evening going through your post it would require spending WAY, WAY, to much time. So I will limit myself to three comments.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> If someone can talk about what looks "good" long enough to sustain a 70 page thread, let alone a book, then he is spending WAY too much time worrying about the appearance of clothes. WAY, WAY, too much time.


While it might take you WAY WAY too much time to sustain a thread, let alone write a book, you are guilty of projecting your limited talents upon Michael Anton. At the time he wrote his book and posts he was a White House speech writer, working with the highest officials of this country to develop the United States's response to developments in the area of national security.

Mozart said he wrote music with as little effort as pissing. I do not mean to compare Michael Anton to Mozart, but he wrote these incredibly meticulously crafted posts with all the effort of taking a leak. If you knew anything about the creative mind, you would know that some things are best developed by the subconscious until they spring forth. While the subconscious is working the conscious mind finds itself doing what someone who did not know better might think frivolous,things like writing posts on men's clothes. I recall spending an afternoon years ago exchanging posts with him on the Interchange on the subject of the applicability of the Geneva Convention to Afghan combatants. It was one of the most intellectually stimulating times of my life. For him it was more like taking a leak.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> You don't like black suits? Don't wear them. Try to convince others to abandon black in the daytime? Why bother? Why would you care?


Why should you care? Reread Cuff's post, especially these paragraphs:

" 2. Where I live and work, black suits are considered trashy and/or nouveau riche. They are for eurotrash and 20-somethings buying their first suit. The men of sophistication, taste, and at least some money that I know hardly ever wear them. They wear grey or navy or charblue or olive or tan or brown or anything, ANYTHING but black.

I understand it is not that way everywhere. But it's what I've been around. I cannot set aside my long personal experience with them to be able to judge black suits without this connotation. Know that this connotation is out there in the world. You can ignore it, but that doesn't make it leave the minds of those who have it."

Perhaps your life cannot be affected should people like Cuff think of you as nouveau riche eurotrash. If so, you are unusually fortunate. On the other hand there are those who do care about how they are perceived by others; and there are those of us who care enough about them to let them know how to avoid making a negative impression, especially one that might affect them adversely.

By the way, you might notice that some days Cuff throws out some of this site's best written posts during working hours. You may think he is wasting his time but I suspect these are times he is allowing his subconscious to work on something important. If you are wise you might learn something from what you consider his waste of time, not so much about clothes, but about the way a successful man thinks and writes.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> "illy rules for silly people"...Hence my conclusion that the rules themselves are silly, as is caring enough about what they might say to bother to debate them.




Henry Ford once said; "history is bunk". A wildly successful engineer and entrepreneur, but not blessed with a well rounded mind. You may think the history, custom and tradition, (the 'rules') of Anglo American men's dress are silly. That is your right. Silly may be better than bunk. On the other hand. I am not alone in caring enough to debate them. Of late, the only time I have been called 'silly" is by my little grandson when we were making faces . I don't mind being called silly, it reminds me of my grandson. It may be hard to believe but some men may not get a warm and fuzzy feeling upon the occasion of being called silly, especially by an adult. Don't spend WAY to much time worrying about it but give it a little thought.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> You could quite rightly decide whether his esthetic sensibility was similar to yours. If not, it would be difficult for you to tell whether he did not care at all, or preferred a different look, perhaps one for which you did not see the appeal.


Sorry, I meant an aesthetic sensibility generally -- for example, though I do not dress in a 'streetwear and denim' style I nevertheless like to think I can still attempt to appreciate what the individual is trying to do in terms of colour, of texture, and style, and so forth.



> Not sure washed-out or drained of color are bad.


Morally speaking, of course not. But you said your colleagues like to look professional and so forth -- looking washed-out can make you look tired and groggy, and therefore may upset that 'fresh and alert' professional look so desired. If you don't see this relationship between colour and the individual fair enough; but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

Jake Genezen said:


> *If you don't see this relationship* [between colour and the individual fair enough; but] *it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.*


Can someone tell me if, in fact, this is flawed reasoning? (I suspect it is!)


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

Not trying to offend people who obviously take style far more seriously than I do, but I will make one more try.

NOT EVERYONE TAKES STYLE AS SERIOUSLY AS YOU GUYS DO.

Not everyone is trying to appear to be a "man of sophistication, taste, and at least some money" I am none of those, those who know me know that, and who would I be trying to fool? End up with less money trying to appear to have more? Seems counterproductive.



> how little you care that you don't know


EXACTLY! Don't know, don't care



> you are guilty of projecting your limited talents upon Michael Anton


Not following. What talent am I trying to project? Who is Michael Anton? A composer? Someone who made clothes for Mozart? I did not think Mozart had the funds for particularly elaborate clothes, but perhaps he did? For all my protestations of not caring about style, men's clothing has changed so much since his time that walking around dressed like Mozart would defeat the goal of anonymously fitting in.



> Perhaps your life cannot be affected should people like Cuff think of you as nouveau riche eurotrash. If so, you are unusually fortunate.


Apparently I am lucky in that regard.

I seriously doubt anyone thinks of me as nouveau riche or eurotrash. I doubt I could achieve that if I tried. Perhaps "tasteless", certainly "boring", but not nearly notable enough for those more colorful labels. I think I would be both baffled and flattered if someone had those opinions. That would require something distinctive in my clothing that certainly I don't recognize. "Comfortable successful professional" but unfortunately millions short of "riche." "Euro" anything would be a compliment that I have never heard applied to me.

In my field there are many prominent people who are very well known for what they have accomplished. Frequently I am called upon to evaluate them for a variety of reasons. I base these evaluations on the quality of their work. Often I have never met the people and would not recognize if them they were to walk into my office. I would be delighted to speak with them, about the substance of their work, but I would not care how they were dressed. By the same token, it is common for me to work with people for years without meeting them. Their opinion of me is based on what I do. If they care about my clothes, I have never seen an indication of it. I dress conventionally, and attempt to blend into the woodwork.

More observations about dress at my place: At the last meeting where I took note: Every man was wearing a light blue shirt. Half were buttondown. All were wearing dark suits, black, dark blue, or dark gray. All shoes were black. Every trouser hem I saw was cuffed. No cuff links, no pocket squares, no tie clasps. Watches, but no other adornment of any kind. All ties were dark, background of dark red colors or dark blue colors. Small repeating patterns. No stripes. Socks were black, or dark enough to appear black. No patterns.

These are the people who matter to me, and that is how they dress. To fit in, I dress like that. It is very easy to dress like this. When you dark blue patterned tie wears out or cannot be cleaned, pick up another one that looks more or less the same. Same for shirts. "Same" is a key word here.



> Presumably you read what Paul Winston said earlier in the thread, and he's been in the industry for half a century. He's been selling menswear longer than you and I have been alive!


I gather Paul Winston sells clothes? If so, then of course he wants people to take style seriously, and he needs people to believe that their clothing is important to career advancement. This would justify high prices. But, at least for me, since I don't know who he is, I don't see why I should care about his opinions about dress, let alone conform to them. If he sells clothes then he is far enough from my field that we cannot have a professional relationship. Is he going to hire me? To do what? Can I assume he would hate it, in fact would be terrible for his career, if most professional men bought most of their clothes at thrift stores?

My goal is fitting in among my colleagues. Not standing out. I think I have acheived "conventional and boring". "Anonymous, faceless bureaucrat" is an aspiration. "Dressed like everybody else" would be ideal.

I read AAAC for information about care and maintenance of clothing, perhaps leads on inexpensive places to buy. But these obsessions about style, sorry, and no offense intended, but the word "silly" still leaps to mind.

I don't like beef. So I don't eat beef. I don't try to convince people who like beef that they should not like it. I don't care if they like beef. I don't think they need to share my food preferences. They should eat what they like. If they like beef, they should eat it. Two people who like beef could productively debate the best steak restaurants. But for someone who does not eat beef to attempt to debate best preparation methods for prime rib?? Why would I do that? What is the point? It is a matter of taste, and tastes vary.

To have a debate about whether a certain dress is attractive or appropriate, the debaters must share fundamental opinions about taste. Then they can discuss whether a particular combination meets the goal. If they don't agree on how they should look, then arguing about whether something looks good is, sorry, silly. Different criteria, different conclusions. These are matters of taste, and tastes vary.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> Not trying to offend people who obviously take style far more seriously than I do, but I will make one more try.
> 
> NOT EVERYONE TAKES STYLE AS SERIOUSLY AS YOU GUYS DO.
> 
> ...


For someone who professes to care so little, you sure are managing to spray a lot of ink on this thread!


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## Auggie Brine (Feb 23, 2010)

I'd just like to mention a minor detail in reference to wearing a black suit at night... if you are at any event being covered by the media/photographers - this could include charity events, premieres etc. - black is tough to photograph and can look "muddy" whereas dark blue actually appears as black. Perhaps a minor detail but possibly one worth considering!

Cheers,
Auggie


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

> For someone who professes to care so little, you sure are managing to spray a lot of ink on this thread!


Exactly. Hoping to learn.

Not worried about looking muddy in pictures. Not sure what that means, but in any case, not a problem.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> Exactly. Hoping to learn.


But I thought you didn't care?


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Auggie Brine said:


> I'd just like to mention a minor detail in reference to wearing a black suit at night... if you are at any event being covered by the media/photographers - this could include charity events, premieres etc. - black is tough to photograph and can look "muddy" whereas dark blue actually appears as black. Perhaps a minor detail but possibly one worth considering!
> 
> Cheers,
> Auggie


A very important detail. Midnight blue looks "blacker than black."


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

We haven't had one of these barging around for a while. Almost sounds like a leftover from the wolf pack.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> Not trying to offend people who obviously take style far more seriously than I do, but I will make one more try.
> 
> NOT EVERYONE TAKES STYLE AS SERIOUSLY AS YOU GUYS DO.
> 
> ...


Best advice, don't form an opinion yet. Stay on the fence.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

^ Seconded. You say you are here to learn, yet you are poo-pooing wisdom. You are loudly proclaiming that we take style too seriously, yet you joined a friggin' clothing forum.

Just saying.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

Trying to learn about maintenance and care. Curious about why one would focus on one color of suit. It seems to make sense only if everyone shares the same opinions about what is appropriate. Clearly , they don't. If not everyone agrees that the look avoided by shunning black should be avoided, then they are not likely to agree to avoid black.

As I said, in matters of taste, and no need to agree. Anyway, I got my questions answered and as a bonus learned that some find this extremely important. I don't need to know why, so I will stop asking questions that annoy many of you.

Thanks for the education.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> Not trying to offend people who obviously take style far more seriously than I do, but I will make one more try.


No need to try, for you it comes naturally.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> NOT EVERYONE TAKES STYLE AS SERIOUSLY AS YOU GUYS DO.


Duh- no need to shout .



dbhdbhdbh said:


> Not everyone is trying to appear to be a "man of sophistication, taste, and at least some money" I am none of those,


 But you are a man of self awareness.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> EXACTLY! Don't know, don't care


Finally,a philosophy for the man in the black suit.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> I seriously doubt anyone thinks of me as nouveau riche or eurotrash. I doubt I could achieve that if I tried.


 Don't sell yourself short. Every man should have goals.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> I gather Paul Winston sells clothes? since I don't know who he is, I don't see why I should care about his opinions about dress, let alone conform to them.


Paul Winston knew Jack Kennedy. Paul Winston made suits for Jack Kennedy. You sir, .......



dbhdbhdbh said:


> If he sells clothes then he is far enough from my field that we cannot have a professional relationship. Is he going to hire me? To do what?


Surely you can sweep floors.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> My goal is fitting in among my colleagues. Not standing out. I think I have acheived "conventional and boring". "Anonymous, faceless bureaucrat" is an aspiration. "Dressed like everybody else" would be ideal.


Babbitt triumphant!



dbhdbhdbh said:


> I read AAAC for information about care and maintenance of clothing, perhaps leads on inexpensive places to buy.


 Read the labels, visit the thrift store- that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> I don't like beef. So I don't eat beef. I don't try to convince people who like beef that they should not like it. I don't care if they like beef. I don't think they need to share my food preferences. They should eat what they like. If they like beef, they should eat it. Two people who like beef could productively debate the best steak restaurants. But for someone who does not eat beef to attempt to debate best preparation methods for prime rib?? Why would I do that? What is the point? It is a matter of taste, and tastes vary.


Then why are you interjecting yourself into a conversation among cattlemen?



dbhdbhdbh said:


> To have a debate about whether a certain dress is attractive or appropriate, the debaters must share fundamental opinions about taste. Then they can discuss whether a particular combination meets the goal. If they don't agree on how they should look, then arguing about whether something looks good is, sorry, silly.


 I conceed it's silly to argue with those who are ignorant and proud of it. But Wac-a-Mole. I love it. God forgive me. I love it so.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

^My word, it looks as if we have found the new Cruiser!


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Unquestionably, arkirshner's multi-response is an instant classic! Loved it!


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

In a depressing twist, I have to part with some of my hard-earned cash to purchase black trousers -- apparently, navy just won't do for this job.

On the plus side, I have a job now.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

The vitriol towards black is really amazing. I wore a black suit last night to a reunion. I received lots of compliments on my attire. I wasn't confused for the waitstaff. Maybe the quality of the suit fabric, the fit, and the high quality shirt and tie make it pretty clear I am not the limousine driver. I am not particularly worried about what people think of black. I like it and I will wear it when I deem it to be appropriate. Of course I was in New York City - where black remains a somewhat ubiquitous and readily accepted color. I will remember not to wear black to court in Atlanta - perhaps a blue OCBD, a blue blazer, and some khakis should I find myself in that predicament - in fact I think that was what I wore the last time I was at the Capitol talking with the legislators. When in Rome.......


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

JBierly said:


> The vitriol towards black is really amazing. I wore a black suit last night to a reunion. I received lots of compliments on my attire. I wasn't confused for the waitstaff. Maybe the quality of the suit fabric, the fit, and the high quality shirt and tie make it pretty clear I am not the limousine driver. I am not particularly worried about what people think of black. I like it and I will wear it when I deem it to be appropriate. Of course I was in New York City - where black remains a somewhat ubiquitous and readily accepted color. I will remember not to wear black to court in Atlanta - perhaps a blue OCBD, a blue blazer, and some khakis should I find myself in that predicament - in fact I think that was what I wore the last time I was at the Capitol talking with the legislators. *When in Rome*.......


Well that's just great; I can now free up closet space because all I really need is a fishy smelling set of oilskins with duct tape over the rips and a pair of Denver Hayes when I dress up for the town ic12337:

I don't think striving for something better is necessarily a bad thing, and that is what most of us here try to do. Some of us may argue rather vociferously about our passion but that is certainly no different than the way of your legislative friends, with far less dire consequences :icon_headagainstwal


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

blairrob said:


> Well that's just great; I can now free up closet space because all I really need is a fishy smelling set of oilskins with duct tape over the rips and a pair of Denver Hayes when I dress up for the town ic12337:


Thanks for educating me on town attire. I suspect a clean oilskin without the duct tape might smell better and certainly look better.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

arkirshner said:


> I conceed it's silly to argue with those who are ignorant and proud of it. But Wac-a-Mole. I love it. God forgive me. I love it so.


+1 and :teacha:!

Experts: 1 .... Clothing nihilists: 0.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

I won't be long after arkishner's post, I swear.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> NOT EVERYONE TAKES STYLE AS SERIOUSLY AS YOU GUYS DO.


Of course not. Stop and think for a moment. This forum exists because 'not everyone takes style as seriously as [we] guys do' (hands off the caps lock please). The very reason why many of us are here, asking questions and sharing insights, on a virtual, world-wide platform, is because in this generally dishevelled macrocosm made of polyester, we wish to find a microcosm of sartorial taste. If my next-door neighbour dressed like upr-crust or spoke with the same intelligence as arkishner*, I probably wouldn't be here. Do not be suprised, then, at the seriousness with which many of us consider sartorial taste. And by all means, do not yell at us/them.

(* to name only two of the many members who contribute to the forum in a very positive way.)



dbhdbhdbh said:


> EXACTLY! Don't know, don't care


Great approach. I hope that isn't your motto for life.



dbhdbhdbh said:


> Someone who made clothes for Mozart? I did not think Mozart had the funds for particularly elaborate clothes, but perhaps he did?


I'm not aware what the name of Amadeo's tailor was (he certainly had one, or many), but yes. Not that he always had the 'funds' for it, but in clothing he would spend an extravagant amount on a fairly regular basis. Because he needed to, or because he felt like he should; also because he wanted the world to look at him like he was the most dashing and brilliant court composer ever. Which he probably was. Just wanted to clear that up.


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## Ardee (Sep 14, 2012)

I was first introduced to suits with black. It was my school uniform actually (an all-boys grammar school in the UK), so I wore it for almost a decade. It was conservative looking enough with a pale blue shirt and a royal blue school tie, black shoes. I wouldn't skimp out on owning one, but the one in my closet right now is a pretty cheap poly-blend. I've seen a few nice black suits in haberdasheries like Brooks and some in the high-end department stores like Nordstrom, the fabric was nice and didn't look cheap, especially the ones that have the subtle grey stripes or other patterns. 

I don't see why there's a big fuss, it wouldn't stand out worn with the right shirt tie combo, I see black suits in the Austin metro area at day-time no problem. But perhaps I'm just too used to seeing myself and 900 or so other lads wear one every day.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Noone disputes that many men wear black. But if you want to argue that they 'should', then perhaps presenting an argument to that effect would be more to the point.

The arguments against black is mainly that most men look washed out because of the very high contrast and monochromatic nature of black, and that blue, grey, brown, green etc is easier to accessorize with ties, ps:s. Also, charcoal is a dark enough grey to have almost the same slimming effect that black has, but provides less contrast to the face. 

I would not hesitate to wear black at night, but with my light complexion and blond hair a black suit really 'pops' in a bad way.

Generally, I don't see black on well dressed men. Also, it has a tendency to get, and look, dusty and dirty.


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## NewStyle (Apr 25, 2012)

I have a black suit that I wear only for funerals. I usually pair it with a off-white/grey shirt.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Anthony Charton said:


> Great approach. I hope that isn't your motto for life.


That's funny! "Nescio neque curo" has been my motto for life for many a long year.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Bjorn said:


> Noone disputes that many men wear black. But if you want to argue that they 'should', then perhaps presenting an argument to that effect would be more to the point.
> 
> The arguments against black is mainly that most men look washed out because of the very high contrast and monochromatic nature of black, and that blue, grey, brown, green etc is easier to accessorize with ties, ps:s. Also, charcoal is a dark enough grey to have almost the same slimming effect that black has, but provides less contrast to the face.
> 
> Generally, I don't see black on well dressed men.


I agree with all of this (assuming "black" means solid black business suits), especially the last part. I do notice plenty of black suits, but not among (i) men who I would regard as generally well-dressed or (ii) lawyers, CPAs, bankers, and CEOs of major companies. Nonetheless, they get a lot of support from relative newbies to this forum, especially those on the young-ish side. My own theory is that when young and unencumbered by knowledge regarding men's dress tradition, they impulsively (and quite understandably) assume black must be a business staple because it is the most conservative color. When informed otherwise some react with incredulity and choose to challenge the information by pointing out that (i) their friends wear black suits and (ii) so do celebrities (usually accompanied by a carefully cultivated 2.5 day stubble).


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> My own theory is that when young and unencumbered by knowledge regarding men's dress tradition, they impulsively (and quite understandably) assume black must be a business staple because it is the most conservative color. When informed otherwise some react with incredulity and choose to challenge the information by pointing out that (i) their friends wear black suits and (ii) so do celebrities (usually accompanied by a carefully cultivated 2.5 day stubble).


:icon_cheers: I am reminded of a member of The Other Place (which is not, I realise, likely to be your cup of tea) who had quite a funny cartoon entitled "AcridSheep's noob lifecycle".


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> ^My word, it looks as if we have found the new Cruiser!


That's a little uncalled for since Cruiser is no longer a member of this forum and thus can't defend himself.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Jovan said:


> That's uncalled for. Cruiser is no longer a member of this forum and thus can't defend himself.


While I chuckled at JLib's observation, I thought it substantively unfair to Cruiser, in addition to the procedural unfairness of his inability to defend himself.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

CuffDaddy said:


> While I chuckled at JLib's observation, I thought it substantively unfair to Cruiser, in addition to the procedural unfairness of his inability to defend himself.


Without commenting on substantive fairness, I concur with my fellow lawyer re the lack of due process. That said, I did not take JLibourel's comment as being intended in any mean spirit.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

Balfour said:


> :icon_cheers: I am reminded of a member of The Other Place (which is not, I realise, likely to be your cup of tea) who had quite a funny cartoon entitled "AcridSheep's noob lifecycle".


Laugh out loud. I just googled (images) that: I guess there is more than a grain of truth in that!


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Mike Petrik said:


> Without commenting on substantive fairness, I concur with my fellow lawyer re the lack of due process. That said, I did not take JLibourel's comment as being intended in any mean spirit.


Oh, me either. Or at least no more mean spirit than the usual give-and-take between a bunch of guys arguing about something. Nothing truly wrong with the bank shot off the absent friend (which status I would grant to Cruiser, as infuriating as he could be at times).


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## CaligulaStyle (Sep 11, 2012)

Seems like a black suit is a nice bridge for events that SHOULD require a tux/DJ but the crowd attending isn't that sophisticated. Wearing a tux in such an environment looks like costume, whereas a nice black suit looks formal but not out if place.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

CaligulaStyle said:


> Seems like a black suit is a nice bridge for events that SHOULD require a tux/DJ but the crowd attending isn't that sophisticated. Wearing a tux in such an environment looks like costume, whereas a nice black suit looks formal but not out if place.


You spelled "navy" wrong in your last sentence. :icon_smile:


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> You spelled "navy" wrong in your last sentence. :icon_smile:


:icon_hailthee::icon_hailthee: Awesome.

'cept you spelled "midnight blue" wrong in _your_ last sentence. :icon_study:


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

blairrob said:


> :icon_hailthee::icon_hailthee: Awesome.
> 
> 'cept you spelled "midnight blue" wrong in _your_ last sentence. :icon_study:


No, midnight blue is for dinner jackets. Navy is for suits and is perfect for the evening.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Matt S said:


> No, midnight blue is for dinner jackets. Navy is for suits and is perfect for the evening.


Well excuse my levity.

If you want to be cranky, your Mr. Bond wears a midnight blue dinner suit as well as a midnight blue lounge suit in the evening for Quantum of Solace, according to some dude's blog I read. I don't believe that particular author enjoyed the Tom Ford look on Bond, but then again it is just a movie.

However since I also have a midnight blue lounge suit apparently such a blue is not _only_ for dinner jackets and the movies.

Sheeshk.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

blairrob said:


> Well excuse my levity.
> 
> If you want to be cranky, your Mr. Bond wears a midnight blue dinner suit as well as a midnight blue lounge suit in the evening for Quantum of Solace, according to some dude's blog I read. I don't believe that particular author enjoyed the Tom Ford look on Bond, but then again it is just a movie.
> 
> ...


Sorry for coming off like that. I care more about black suits than I should, since not wearing black suits except for funerals was one of the first clothing rules I was taught as a young child. I don't have equal enthusiasm for everything James Bond wears. I would preferred to have seen Bond in that scene in a dinner suit, or a marginally lighter lounge suit. Midnight blue is more black than it is blue, and I see it as a more sophisticated black rather than a really dark blue, since it looks more like black (that's the point of it).


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## JackKelly (Dec 20, 2011)

It is amazing to me that anyone would bother to join a mens' clothing forum if they care nothing about mens' style, let alone spend the time and energy required to denigrate the members that do.

Anyway, I don't own a black suit, but I do have a couple of black sports jackets - a Corneliani and a Prada. I haven't worn either in a while, but this discussion has challenged me to break one out and try to find shirt, tie, pants and shoes to pair with them, perhaps for a casual Friday. Any suggestions?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Make a stroller of it. Use some grey or black-and-white checked or plaid trousers.


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## JackKelly (Dec 20, 2011)

CuffDaddy said:


> Make a stroller of it. Use some grey or black-and-white checked or plaid trousers.


OK, thanks. I have plenty of grey trousers at least. Shirt/tie/shoes combos?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Courtesy of A Suitable Wardrobe (my favorite clothing blog), here are some pictures to give you ideas:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/R4_4JLQV-WI/AAAAAAAACG4/B_0U6Hd7fGQ/s1600-h/NYcloudclub.jpg
[URL="https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/TNgHzWlAImI/AAAAAAAAGXk/J_wWIxphtME/s1600/champagnestroller.jpg"]https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/TNgHzWlAImI/AAAAAAAAGXk/J_wWIxphtME/s1600/champagnestroller.jpg
[URL="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/RhEl_8OuPwI/AAAAAAAAAnk/tFM-7dbKDGU/s1600-h/dbstroller.jpg"]https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/RhEl_8OuPwI/AAAAAAAAAnk/tFM-7dbKDGU/s1600-h/dbstroller.jpg


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## JackKelly (Dec 20, 2011)

CuffDaddy said:


> Courtesy of A Suitable Wardrobe (my favorite clothing blog), here are some pictures to give you ideas:
> 
> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/R4_4JLQV-WI/AAAAAAAACG4/B_0U6Hd7fGQ/s1600-h/NYcloudclub.jpghttps://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/TNgHzWlAImI/AAAAAAAAGXk/J_wWIxphtME/s1600/champagnestroller.jpghttps://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/RhEl_8OuPwI/AAAAAAAAAnk/tFM-7dbKDGU/s1600-h/dbstroller.jpg


My favorite as well, thank you. This will be a challenge.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> Courtesy of A Suitable Wardrobe (my favorite clothing blog), here are some pictures to give you ideas:
> 
> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/R4_4JLQV-WI/AAAAAAAACG4/B_0U6Hd7fGQ/s1600-h/NYcloudclub.jpghttps://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/TNgHzWlAImI/AAAAAAAAGXk/J_wWIxphtME/s1600/champagnestroller.jpghttps://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/RhEl_8OuPwI/AAAAAAAAAnk/tFM-7dbKDGU/s1600-h/dbstroller.jpg


Thank you CuffDaddy (and other members) for posting such links; they provide great inspiration and are lovely artworks in themselves.

Is there a reason why a navy blazer is hardly (if ever) seen paired with checked/plaid [email protected]? (Unsure if the illustrations feature a navy jacket or blazer.)


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

CuffDaddy said:


> Make a stroller of it. Use some grey or black-and-white checked or plaid trousers.


I like this idea.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

All of the illustrated jackets would be of black fabric or of a fabric sometimes called "oxford grey," which is such a dark grey as to practically be black. That's because the stroller is derived from the morning suit, which was originally black or very dark grey. The outfits shown are actually _more_ formal than a suit, though relatively few observers today would know that.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

To argue that black suits are cool, two words: Reservoir Dogs


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Two words back at ya: Movie costume. 

The '90s had some sort of obsession with black suits, white shirts, and black ties. _Reservoir Dogs_, _Pulp Fiction_, _Men in Black_, _The Matrix_... but in all of those films, it worked because they were _costumes_ and indicative of some kind of conformity or homogenization of the people who wore them. When you really look at the guys (mostly Caucasian) wearing them in the daytime, they look washed out, lifeless, and almost grey. Only Samuel L. Jackson and Will Smith made them work with their skin tone. But if I were their stylist, I'd advise against it in their daily life unless they were attending a funeral.

Just my thoughts.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Jovan said:


> Two words back at ya: Movie costume.
> 
> The '90s had some sort of obsession with black suits, white shirts, and black ties. _Reservoir Dogs_, _Pulp Fiction_, _Men in Black_, _The Matrix_... but in all of those films, it worked because they were _costumes_ and indicative of some kind of conformity or homogenization of the people who wore them. When you really look at the guys (mostly Caucasian) wearing them in the daytime, they look washed out, lifeless, and almost grey. Only Samuel L. Jackson and Will Smith made them work with their skin tone. But if I were their stylist, I'd advise against it in their daily life unless they were attending a funeral.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


+1.

As for Reservoir Dogs, are those really men we should really try to emulate in any way?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Indeed. Black works better at night, where the lighting is dimmer. I still prefer midnight blue though.

As to the armies of young men wearing black suits, all I can think is...


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Matt S said:


> As for Reservoir Dogs, are those really men we should really try to emulate in any way?


In language and demeanor, I did...but then I got married.

With regard to Jovan's interesting thesis that it's just a movie costume, I agree that it is a commonality, but I think, the less superficial, real common denominator is that all of the wearers of the black suit in the movies are serious tough guys. In the case of the Tarrantino dramas, RD and PF, real bad-guy tough guys.

I think there's something to that. And so, if one were to wear a black suit in public today, they would probably do well to project that same serious menacing image. It won't win a lot of friends, but it might leave you uninterrupted while you drink alone at the bar and think. Sometimes, that's a good thing.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> In language and demeanor, I did...but then I got married.
> 
> With regard to Jovan's interesting thesis that it's just a movie costume, I agree that it is a commonality, but I think, the less superficial, real common denominator is that all of the wearers of the black suit in the movies are serious tough guys. In the case of the Tarrantino dramas, RD and PF, real bad-guy tough guys.
> 
> I think there's something to that. And so, if one were to wear a black suit in public today, they would probably do well to project that same serious menacing image. It won't win a lot of friends, but it might leave you uninterrupted while you drink alone at the bar and think. Sometimes, that's a good thing.


Being left alone can be a good thing. Of course, we could suit up in biker leathers for the full effect.

Then again, most people would ...

think they looked like this:









and end up looking like this:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> In language and demeanor, I did...but then I got married.
> 
> With regard to Jovan's interesting thesis that it's just a movie costume, I agree that it is a commonality, but I think, the less superficial, real common denominator is that all of the wearers of the black suit in the movies are serious tough guys. In the case of the Tarrantino dramas, RD and PF, real bad-guy tough guys.
> 
> I think there's something to that. And so, if one were to wear a black suit in public today, they would probably do well to project that same serious menacing image. It won't win a lot of friends, but it might leave you uninterrupted while you drink alone at the bar and think. Sometimes, that's a good thing.


I appreciate your point however, the occasional movie aside, my most common experience of the black suit wearers is some considerable distance from being menacing. Similarly long black leather trench coats may look good on the gestapo but make most guys look like a Star Trek fan. The best way to look menacing is to actually be a menace. Guys who hang around trying to look tough always make me smirk. Genuinely tough guys have a tendency to downplay or disguise their nature.

EDIT; MR B. and I are, apparently, sponsored by the same ideology.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Balfour said:


> Being left alone can be a good thing. Of course, we could suit up in biker leathers for the full effect.
> 
> Then again, most people would ...
> 
> ...


Yes, there's always the danger of self-perception and reality not totally overlapping. Thanks for that prudent word of warning.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Shaver said:


> I appreciate your point however, the occasional movie aside, my most common experience of the black suit wearers is some considerable distance from being menacing. Similarly long black leather trench coats may look good on the gestapo but make most guys look like a Star Trek fan. The best way to look menacing is to actually be a menace. Guys who hang around trying to look tough always make me smirk. Genuinely tough guys have a tendency to downplay or disguise their nature.


Totally agree. You definitely can't fake it.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

Wow. That was a classic ad hominem attack. Well done. Of course, the reason one should employ the AH argument with caution is that it announces that one has run out of substantive comments, and is attempting to change the subject from the point at hand, to the opponent. Since this is so well known, it usually fails. 


A related strategy is to try to incite the other person to joining you in the AH, and thus completely derail the discussion. To work well, this requires his cooperation, and it only works if he takes offense are your comments. In my case, I don't. I also don't attempt intentionally to insult people online or in person. I suppose, in addition to being fortunate that I am not primarily judged by the set of rules under discussion, I also do not encounter this sort of behavior on a regular basis, so I am not seething with anger and seeking an outlet. For that I am grateful.



To take the points in the spirit in which I doubt they were intended.


Could I pull off nouveau riche? Not being good with stereotypes, I would need some help. I would have assumed I should wear obviously expensive clothing, preferably with visible logos so everyone could see the name of the designer. I should probably wear a large, ostentatious watch, no? Gold, since one might not recognize platinum? Beyond that, not sure how to proceed.

For Euro trash- well not sure how to denigrate an entire continent based on stereotypes of how certain people there might dress, but here is a try: Very fine fabrics, very drapy, unstructured jacket, trouser cuffs very low with a pronounced break in front and touching the floor in back. Flimsy Italian driving mocs for shoes. Large floral tie, pocket square, French cuffs. How am I doing? Would that convey both Euro and Trash?


I don't dress according to either of these images, so excuse me if I got it wrong.


Do I look like Jack Kennedy? Of course not. I know that, and I am not trying to look like him. Being mistaken for a dead President would hardly advance the goal of faceless anonymity. That being the case, I would have no a reason to emulate his dress, or seek the advice of the person who sold him his clothes.


CEO's don't wear black suits in the daytime?
Warren Buffet, very public CEO of a public company was on CNBC this morning. Now it was TV, I was not there in person, but this is what he appeared to be wearing
A solid black suit. When he was shot against a dark background his jacket disappeared and he looked like a disembodied head floating on the screen. It was interesting.

White buttondown shirt

darkish red, perhaps crimson, tie with a pattern of small light-colored dots.

No pocket square
no French cuffs.
His shirt sleeves did not project far enough to tell whether he was wearing cuff links.
Did not see a tie clasp, but his jacket was buttoned, so if he had one it was concealed.
Could not see his belt or shoes.

Now I do not bring this up to claim that everyone should dress like Warren Buffet. As is obvious from my comments, I don't buy the idea that everyone should dress in the same manner, be it WB's or anyone else's style.

I bring it up to point out that this is a guy who

Can afford any clothing he wants.
Appears regularly in public and on TV to represent his company.
Surely reviews what the plans for his appearances with his PR people.
Could have consultants on his clothing if he wanted them.
May well have such consultants.
Is old, has cancer, and the press is obsessed with his health and succession planning. He needs to project as much alertness and vigor as he can.
Is white with a fairly light complexion

But he wore a black suit and white shirt.

So at least one CEO of a major corporation was prepared to be interviewed on national TV in such a get up.

Could I sweep floors? For the right price, of course. But if I charged my regular rates no one in their right mind would pay that much for floor sweeping. Other than that, I cannot see a business connection with Jack Kennedy's clothes salesperson.

Me as Babbit? Been a long time, but I remember him as trying to break out of suffocating conformity, rather than embracing it. Perhaps Willy Loman?


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> Wow. That was a classic ad hominem attack. Well done. Of course, the reason one should employ the AH argument with caution is that it announces that one has run out of substantive comments, and is attempting to change the subject from the point at hand, to the opponent. Since this is so well known, it usually fails.
> 
> A related strategy is to try to incite the other person to joining you in the AH, and thus completely derail the discussion. To work well, this requires his cooperation, and it only works if he takes offense are your comments. In my case, I don't. I also don't attempt intentionally to insult people online or in person. I suppose, in addition to being fortunate that I am not primarily judged by the set of rules under discussion, I also do not encounter this sort of behavior on a regular basis, so I am not seething with anger and seeking an outlet. For that I am grateful.
> 
> ...


But you still don't care, right?


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## Guyute82 (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't own one (other than a tuxedo) and can't see myself buying one.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't care about the supposed ill consequences of wearing a solid black suit. They seem to be that 

Some people don't like it
Some people will think less of the person who wears one
Might look odd in photographs (although not sure what the oddness would be)
Might be mistaken for a waiter or a funeral director. (What is wrong with being a waiter or funeral director?)


Against that I weigh the importance of "looking like everyone else." Conforming to my local standard comes in far ahead of satisfying some style experts on an issue about which there is clearly not agreement.


What about military officers? I assume they get a pass on these fashion rules, since they cannot just decide to redesign their uniforms to express their individuality? What about funeral directors, who, apparently, are expected to wear black? Should they be subjects of derision? Should they carry signs that say "I know I am wearing black before sundown, but It is okay, I am a funeral director?" Same for waiters? Priests? People whose workplaces love black suits? Soon there are so many exceptions that the rule loses its value. If you have to know the person to know whether they have an excuse for their fashion failing, kind of takes the fun out of laughing at the way they are dressed, doesn't it?


So, I don't care what other people wear, I don't care if someone thinks I look- choose your insult- in a black suit. But I remain puzzled about why people would be so interested in what another person is wearing. I would rather judge a man by the content of his character than the color of his suit. If I don't know enough to judge his character, then I don't know enough to judge him.


I am not trying to look like a Kennedy. If I wanted to associate myself with any Kennedy, it would be earned-his-money Joe Sr., rather than politician later generations. Not trying to look like an aristocrat. Not trying to impress someone with my wealth and taste. I am trying to look like an accomplished professional, and a responsible, frugal person. I can still care about the quality (read durability, easy maintenance, those sorts of attributes) of clothes. I can still care about how frequently to dry clean a suit or the best way to condition shoes. I am just not interested in mocking people who do not share my color palette. Free country, and all that.


I cannot pass up "nouveau riche" without pointing out that it implies that wealth is fine, as long as it is inherited. It claims that earned, first generation, wealth should be a source of contempt. This was an appealing idea to aristocrats, since it validated their claim that their importance derived from birth. That no wordly accomplishments could match them and no amount of shiftless uselessness on their part could reduce their status in society. As an American, I reject "nouveau riche" as an insult. I celebrate those who are self-made men and women. 


But that's just me.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

dbh, I must concede, you're dealing some vicious blows to that straw man.

I don't recally anyone suggesting that one could/should "judge" a man by his suit. This thread was about judging the suit, not the man.

As for the phrase "nouveau riche," there's the (original) meaning that meant that one lacked an aristocratic family tree. As you note, however, you're an American, and surely you are quite familiar with the understanding of that phrase that obtains here: someone who has obtained money without the training to use it with taste. Whether the source of money is hard work, financial shell-games that add no value to society, the lottery, or the release of a trust fund, the lack of knowledge of what to do with the money is the key concept.

Finally, you indicate that where you are, black suits predominate. I don't recall that from my recent visits to the Hub, but you would know better than those of us who aren't there. The meaning of black suits, like that of many spoken words, varies by locale. In my post that you seem to have found so troubling, I was careful to explain how things are _where I am_. If things are different where you are, then things are different where you are. That's OK. You guys have better public schools and worse barbeque. So it goes.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

"The traditional colors regarded as correct for a suit are dark blue, dark to very light gray, and black. It should certainly be in one of those colors if it is to be worn for business in such fields as finance, the law, commerce, or politics"

One pundits assertion. Certainly not the consensus opinion on this BB.


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

I bought one this summer mainly for funerals ,but that would not stop me from wearing it along with my black fedora or homberg with a black overcoat . 

All the Best , Fashon Frank


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

JBierly said:


> "The traditional colors regarded as correct for a suit are dark blue, dark to very light gray, and black. It should certainly be in one of those colors if it is to be worn for business in such fields as finance, the law, commerce, or politics"
> 
> One pundits assertion. Certainly not the consensus opinion on this BB.


Yes, I also read that pundit who is manifestly incorrect if by traditional he means early-mid 20th century until very recently. One can make a case that while black suits have been traditionally frowned upon for business they are becoming increasingly acceptable, depending on age, region, and industry, but this pundit's assertion is pretty hard to defend.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

This whole 8 pages of discussion provides in itself the QED to the original question.
What I mean by that is that if black suits were acceptable, flattering and common then the question wouldn't have been asked in the first place and we wouldn't be discussing the subject on a nauseatingly regular basis. 

Gents with even the tiniest amount of sartorial awareness do not wear black suits.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Who here actually owns a pinstriped suit?


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Who here actually owns a pinstriped suit?


I'm pretty sure I do. I know I have in the past--definitely in the '80s and possibly in the '90s. All with flat front trousers and reasonable lapels, I might add.


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

*Love Pinstripes !*

Hello all, hope everyone is doing well today?

I have three pinstripes ,one is a double breasted grey with a decent size pinstripe, a three button down grey with fine stripesand a greenish /grey doublebreasted with an alternate color pinstripe

I like the double breasted one's the best though .

All the Best , Fashion Frank


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Count me as one of the pinstripe crowd. The stripes, muted or not, just seem to give the suit(s) that added touch of pizzazz!


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Rather than add to the sartorially and aesthetically wise opinions of CuffDaddy et al., I'll simply say this: living in New York City, I probably witness the wearing of black suits (and black clothing in general) as much as anyone in the United States. Not once have I found those black suits to be appealing; in fact, they often look comically inappropriate.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Who here actually owns a pinstriped suit?


A few.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Several, in dark and medium gray as well as navy. Chalk stripe too. Pretty much a lawyer staple, especially a corporate lawyer.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

I've got stripes...


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Pinstripes and chalkstripes both. With chalkstripes, at least in London, the breadth and brightness of the stripe mark the difference between the Queen's Counsel and the barrow boy.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Pinstripes, chalk stripes and rope stripes. Difference: pinstripes should be visible across a table, chalk stripes should be visible across a room, rope stripes should be visible from space.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

StephenRG said:


> chalk stripes should be visible across a room


Exactly.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

StephenRG said:


> Pinstripes, chalk stripes and rope stripes. Difference: pinstripes should be visible across a table, chalk stripes should be visible across a room, rope stripes should be visible from space.


I like this, though my striped suit fails it. Oh well.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Balfour said:


> Pinstripes and chalkstripes both. With chalkstripes, at least in London, the breadth and brightness of the stripe mark the difference between the Queen's Counsel and the barrow boy.


Would you mind clarifying? I presume that the barrow boy wears wide bright pink (or sky blue) stripes and the counsellor opts for more subdued and slimmer stripes.......?


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Shaver said:


> Would you mind clarifying? I presume that the barrow boy wears wide bright pink (or sky blue) stripes and the counsellor opts for more subdued and slimmer stripes.......?


QC = 1/2 to 5/8th inch spacing, soft subdued stripe (as if the chalk had been gently skimmed across the surface).

Barrow boy = much broader spacing, stripe looks like the cloth has been cut and a klieg light shone through it.

Bright colours = advanced barrow boy out for a night 'getting it large, innit'.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

*Four more CEO's who did not get the memo*

GE- white guy, black suit, white shirt
Proctor and Gamble white guy, black suit, white shirt
Honewell- white guy, black suit, blue shirt
RLJ- black guy, black suit, white shirt. It may have been my set, but his suit might have had a faint check pattern or stripes. Hard to be sure. He was also the only one with any other ornamentation, a pocket square.

So much for "CEO's don't wear black suits in the daytime"


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Anyone would think db cares.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Balfour said:


> Anyone would think db cares.


_*I*_ think he cares.

I may have missed something in this thread but is there now established on AAAC a positive correlation between being a CEO and dressing well?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Shaver said:


> _*I*_ think he cares.
> 
> I may have missed something in this thread but is there now established on AAAC a positive correlation between being a CEO and dressing well?


Of course not, but there was a time when American CEOs knew how to dress, and many still do of course. Regrettably, since the 1960s most American men pay little or no attention to proper dress, have little or no knowledge, and basically let their wives dress them whenever attention to dress is perceived as important. It is hardly surprising that this unfortunate phenomenon has affected CEOs too. That said, I deal with CEOs regularly and have not encountered solid black suits. I have seen many dark gray or even navy that I suppose could be mistaken for black by someone with poor eye sight, or even someone with good eye sight if he is relying on a photo.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I have seen black suit proponents often claim "so-and-so wears a black suit." Sometimes the claim is correct. Very often, it isn't; the person is often wearing a very dark grey or a navy suit, and the photograph doesn't make it obvious unless you look closely.

So here's a photo of P&G's CEO:










Lots of people would look at that and say he's wearing a black suit. Here's a larger version of the same photo:

That's not a black suit. Looks like charcoal flannel, in fact.

Anyway, not trying to argue about whether this particular gentleman has ever worn a black suit; he may well have. Where I am, though, it's unusual to see CEO's in black suits. The exception that springs immediately to mind, however, is Arthur Blank, one of the founders of Home Depot. He wears them. But it seems to be mostly on Sundays during the fall and winter. I think this photo may explain why:


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

I thought all CEOs wore black mock turtlenecks and black jeans. I need to get out more.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

*Gentlemen!!!*



P Hudson said:


> I'm pretty sure I do. I know I have in the past--definitely in the '80s and possibly in the '90s. All with flat front trousers and reasonable lapels, I might add.





Fashion Frank said:


> Hello all, hope everyone is doing well today?
> 
> I have three pinstripes ,one is a double breasted grey with a decent size pinstripe, a three button down grey with fine stripesand a greenish /grey doublebreasted with an alternate color pinstripe
> 
> ...





eagle2250 said:


> Count me as one of the pinstripe crowd. The stripes, muted or not, just seem to give the suit(s) that added touch of pizzazz!





CuffDaddy said:


> A few.





Mike Petrik said:


> Several, in dark and medium gray as well as navy. Chalk stripe too. Pretty much a lawyer staple, especially a corporate lawyer.





Bjorn said:


> I've got stripes...





Balfour said:


> Pinstripes and chalkstripes both. With chalkstripes, at least in London, the breadth and brightness of the stripe mark the difference between the Queen's Counsel and the barrow boy.





StephenRG said:


> Pinstripes, chalk stripes and rope stripes. Difference: pinstripes should be visible across a table, chalk stripes should be visible across a room, rope stripes should be visible from space.


But I... um...



Earl of Ormonde said:


> This whole 8 pages of discussion provides in itself the QED to the original question.
> What I mean by that is that if black suits were acceptable, flattering and common then the question wouldn't have been asked in the first place and we wouldn't be discussing the subject on a nauseatingly regular basis.
> 
> Gents with even the tiniest amount of sartorial awareness do not wear black suits.





Jovan said:


> Who here actually owns a pinstriped suit?


Thread title: "Who here actually owns a solid black suit?"

Apparently my sense of humour failed to come across. Apologies. :icon_scratch:


----------



## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Jovan said:


> But I... um...
> 
> Thread title: "Who here actually owns a solid black suit?"
> Apparently my sense of humour failed to come across. Apologies. :icon_scratch:


I don't get the joke, but our opposition isn't to stripes (or plaids or solids). It is to the "color" black (with respect to clothing).


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Well at least you have given pretty compelling evidence that wearing a black suit is not always going to make it look like you are a waiter or a driver. Perhaps wearing a cheap black suit....


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I will happily stipulate that, in the event you are the owner of an NFL franchise, and your team colors include black prominently, and you wear a black suit on the sideline on game day, few will think worse of you. You've got me there.

(But go find pictures of Mr. Blank when he's not doing something Falcon-related. The suits are usually some other color.)


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

P Hudson said:


> I don't get the joke, but our opposition isn't to stripes (or plaids or solids). It is to the "color" black (with respect to clothing).


Oh for--

Do I really have to explain further?


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Oh for--
> 
> Do I really have to explain further?


I'm sorry, Jovan. Your last reply gave me my biggest laugh of the day. It is good to be among friends.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

I would say that sports franchise is one of those glamor industries I always refer to so this gives some latitude some of us would not have.

And, as Cuff pointed out, this guy is a big wheel. He also is not going to an interview or life event so I think it is OK for us to grant an indulgence. I agree it is unlikely he will be mistaken for staff.

I think I'd change that ps, thought. The tone is too close to the tie.

You known, I harbour no ill will against the _*solid*_ black suit nor any who sail in her. I just don't generally recommend it for day biz, etc...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

P Hudson said:


> I'm sorry, Jovan. Your last reply gave me my biggest laugh of the day. It is good to be among friends.


You were having me on then. :tongue2:


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Orsini said:


> I would say that sports franchise is one of those glamor industries I always refer to so this gives some latitude some of us would not have.
> 
> And, as Cuff pointed out, this guy is a big wheel. He also is not going to an interview or life event so I think it is OK for us to grant an indulgence. I agree it is unlikely he will be mistaken for staff.
> 
> ...


I thought the same thing about the pocket square.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Orsini said:


> I would say that sports franchise is one of those glamor industries I always refer to so this gives some latitude some of us would not have.
> 
> And, as Cuff pointed out, this guy is a big wheel. He also is not going to an interview or life event so I think it is OK for us to grant an indulgence. I agree it is unlikely he will be mistaken for staff.
> 
> ...


Agreed. But it's not that the guy is such a big shot that rules don't apply; he owns a sports team with certain colors. Wearing those colors may not be aesthetically pleasing - and I don't think they look great on him - but it serves the more important purpose of showing his devotion to the enterprise. That's why the PS matches the tie - they're both Falcons red. And the suit is black (and the shirt white) because black and white are the other two team colors.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

There is white in the uniforms also - probably would be my choice for a PS with that suit and tie.


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## The FourHorseMen (Oct 28, 2012)

Hello, 

I'm a new member of this forum. I'mSwedish, but I'm residing in Canada.

I have a solid black suit, an Armani. I only use it for funerals, if or ratherwhen the humidity makes it smaller, I'll not buy me a new one


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

The FourHorseMen said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm a new member of this forum. I'mSwedish, but I'm residing in Canada.
> 
> I have a solid black suit, an Armani. I only use it for funerals, if or ratherwhen the humidity makes it smaller, I'll not buy me a new one


Welcome to the forum.
Especially as we are in general agreement as to black suits.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

The FourHorseMen said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm a new member of this forum. I'mSwedish, but I'm residing in Canada.
> 
> I have a solid black suit, an Armani. I only use it for funerals, if or ratherwhen the humidity makes it smaller, I'll not buy me a new one


Wear it for evening social and you will be OK.


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## coase (Apr 29, 2010)

Interesting issue here. Separating the aesthetic question (Does it look good?) from the conventional (Is it acceptable in conservative dress circles?) at what fraction of regular use by top executives, leading lawyers, CEOs, etc would one have to observe black suits to deem them not only acceptable but not dangerous for younger interns/executives to wear to work/interview? 5%? 10%?

Also do you think the day of black has passed or will the likely influence of the Far East in business (where Japan and to a lesser extent China take black as a given, sometimes even a default) only increase the chances that black will become more commonplace in North America?

After all I notice that some on this forum have been lamenting the switch to narrower lapels and flat front pants for many years now but it seems clear that this is now the new norm.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

coase said:


> Interesting issue here. Separating the aesthetic question (Does it look good?) from the conventional (Is it acceptable in conservative dress circles?) at what fraction of regular use by top executives, leading lawyers, CEOs, etc would one have to observe black suits to deem them not only acceptable but not dangerous for younger interns/executives to wear to work/interview? 5%? 10%?
> 
> Also do you think the day of black has passed or will the likely influence of the Far East in business (where Japan and to a lesser extent China take black as a given, sometimes even a default) only increase the chances that black will become more commonplace in North America?
> 
> After all I notice that some on this forum have been lamenting the switch to narrower lapels and flat front pants for many years now but it seems clear that this is now the new norm.


Well, I'd distinguish between lapels and pleats versus solid black suits. The former really are just style preferences influenced by fashion. The "norm" to which you refer is constantly changing. No informed man would think that it is "wrong" or a violation of convention for a gent to prefer lapel widths or flat versus pleated pants contra to the fashion of the moment.

As for black suits, this is more a function of whether the "descriptive" element of acceptability will develop to the point that it overtakes the "prescriptive" and thereby alters it. This is hard to know of course. It is good to remember that that some conventions develop classic status because they are time-tested aesthetically, which means their displacement with or by new conventions will be resisted and either fail or take longer.

As for the influence of Asian conventions on the west, time will tell. I do know that these cultural influences have been a common prediction for at least a couple decades, but it does seem that the the cultural flow continues to tend the other way. I'm inclined to think that is a good thing regarding clothes, but not much else in the mundane cultural sense. But that is just my opinion.


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## The FourHorseMen (Oct 28, 2012)

A solid black suit looks sophisticated, classy, and boring. I try to stay away from black close to my face, due to my Scandinavian appearance. I'm pale, blond, and I have blue eyes. Charcoal or navy works much better for me


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

The FourHorseMen said:


> A solid *navy *suit looks sophisticated, classy, and *urbane*. I try to stay away from black close to my face, due to my Scandinavian appearance. I'm pale, blond, and I have blue eyes. Charcoal or navy works much better for *anyone*


FTFY.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Balfour said:


> FTFY.


Well done act of kindness.


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## The FourHorseMen (Oct 28, 2012)

Balfour said:


> FTFY.


Spot on, my friend! :smile:


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

Wow! Still going.

McDonald's suit still looks black to me. 

I don't think there exist models of how everyone should dress. I brought up CEO's because someone had claimed that men in such positions did not wear black suits. Not sure what was the basis of those claims, but they turned out to be absurdly easy to refute.

But I cheerfully admit I cannot tell the difference between a suit that "looks" black and a suit that "is" black. 

I don't understand the claims of some colors looking "blacker than black", a physical impossibility, of course. A piece of cloth is exactly as black as it appears to be. If it has color that you cannot see, then it is black. 

If it gives someone comfort to think that their suit is not black, although by standard criteria of not reflecting light, it is black, then good for them. As a form of argument, it is even weaker than the ad hominen and appeals to authority. The ad hominen we discussed. The appeal to authority ("CEO's don't wear black") then has to be modified in one of two ways. Either "CEO's in general do not wear black, but that CEO is very badly dressed, so he does not count". In other words "the only CEO's who count are those whose dress supports my argument. Ignore all the others." 

OR, even more amusing, "If a CEO was wearing a suit, then the suit was not black. By definition any suit worn by a CEO could not be black because, well because CEO's don't wear black suits."

If some men like to think their suits are a very, very, really extremely, dark shade of Day Glo orange, then let those emperors march on in their new clothes.

I don't care what color suits other people wear. But I do find the fascination itself fascinating. I find fascinating the assumption that a 25 year old working in an avant gallery should follow the same color rules as a 55 year old senior executive at a major accounting firm. I find fascinating the assumption that looking pale or washed out is always to be avoided, when some men use make up to appear paler than they would be without. I find it fascinating that people actually believe that they can tell how tired someone is by looking at the color of their clothing. That one is really entertaining.

And I find it both baffling and fascinating that people not only assume that everyone has to follow their palette, but the inferences they draw when they see someone who does not. If someone called my attention to the fact that a guy was wearing a color combination that I would not wear, I would assume one of the following: 

1. He grabbed a suit, shirt, and tie, and headed for work without worrying about how they were coordinated. I think this describes the vast majority of men, so it would be a pretty safe bet.

OR

2. He thought about the combination, and decided it produced the effect he was after. I don't believe many men give this much thought to their daily dress, but there are clearly a minority for whom this would be accurate.

In neither case would I think I had a basis for any other assumptions about the the man's competence, seriousness, alertness, or how much sleep he got last night.

If I knew his field, I might at least be able to have an opinion about whether he was dressed in a manner unusual for his workplace (gallery, vs kitchen, vs accounting office). Maybe that might tilt me to have an opinion as to how much he wanted to conform to the norms of his workplace, but it would not tell me much else. I suppose some might hesitate to use a flamboyant accountant or surgeon, but for advice about art- not sure who would care about the clothing style.

And, I am sorry, but I still find "Blacker than black" hilarious. Neither good nor bad, just funny.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Yes, you still appear to be going, despite how little you claim to care about this.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> McDonald's suit still looks black to me.


Oh, well that explains everything. Turns out you suffer from some sort of visual impairment, or else have a definition of black that encompasses dark grey and navy.



> I don't think there exist models of how everyone should dress. I brought up CEO's because someone had claimed that men in such positions did not wear black suits. Not sure what was the basis of those claims, but they turned out to be absurdly easy to refute.


See above. If you count navy and grey suits as black, then it is indeed easy to refute the claim.

Perhaps we can bring closure to the matter by agreeing to disagree on the meaning of "black."


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> ....And, I am sorry, but I still find "Blacker than black" hilarious. Neither good nor bad, just funny.


In which case this will really make you laugh your socks off:

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/new-nano.html

:icon_smile_wink:


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> I find fascinating the assumption that a 25 year old working in an avant gallery should follow the same color rules as a 55 year old senior executive at a major accounting firm.


Where, pray tell has anyone ever said this?

This forum has repeatedly and consistently acknowledged that in some professions black suits are absolutely appropriate, and sometimes called for. For example, our friend, Pink and Green is a minister, and our friend, Salgy is in the service industry. Both wear black suits when the occasion calls and on this forum it has been universally acknowledged that they are right to do so. The same has been acknowledged with respect to those in the arts.

Many of your other allegations and assertions are equally frivolous, but the day is short.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

arkirshner said:


> Where, pray tell has anyone ever said this?
> 
> This forum has repeatedly and consistently acknowledged that in some professions black suits are absolutely appropriate, and sometimes called for. For example, our friend, Pink and Green is a minister, and our friend, Salgy is in the service industry. Both wear black suits when the occasion calls and on this forum it has been universally acknowledged that they are right to do so. The same has been acknowledged with respect to those in the arts.
> 
> Many of your other allegations and assertions are equally frivolous, but the day is short.


Exactly right. And that is even the case for those of us who don't think it is a particularly appealing look. But we can separate our aesthetic preferences from the question of what is appropriate.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> Exactly right. And that is even the case for those of us who don't think it is a particularly appealing look. But we can separate our aesthetic preferences from the question of what is appropriate.


Quite right. The court dress of a barrister over here involves a black gown, which is part of the 'uniform'. Completely appropriate in that context, as it is for ministers of religion, etc.


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## dbhdbhdbh (Aug 10, 2012)

> Many of your other allegations and assertions are equally frivolous


As I said, the intensity with which people care about this fascinates me.

As for argumentation style, I suppose this is a variant of ad hominen? "I don't like you. People I don't like are always wrong. Therefore you are wrong. No need to address the points. My main goal is now to convince everyone else they should not like you, so they will also be uninterested in the points." This one certainly works in political campaigns, apparently the reason behind negative ads.

I suppose there is also "You are so obviously wrong that I cannot be bothered to state why." Then why bother to mention it?

I did forget "You only THINK it is black. If you eyes were better, you would realize that it is really very, very, very, dark yellow. We men of taste can tell the difference." I agree. I am an uncultured primitive who cannot see colors at all. What is this "blue" you of which you speak?

Of course the people in the NASA report were being flippant, and trying to make science appealing to nonscientists. The people on this board are apparently serious. Or, if they mean it the same was as the NASA group, then no one has ever had a black suit, since they do not exist. Even if coated with carbon fiber tubes, they would reflect some light. If it can be measured with sufficiently sensitive instruments, then the material is dark, but not black. Therefore there are no black suits. So the answer to "How many people have a solid black suit?" is "No one. It is impossible to make a black suit"

I am off to polish my dark midnight white suit.

Keep it coming, this is fun. And don't get so upset. I am joking, and you guys are acting as if I am going to sneak into your closets and replace your charcoal suits with black. Which would leave you unable to venture outside for fear of being seen.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> I did forget "You only THINK it is black. If you eyes were better,


https://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=77


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

db, I had to deploy the following quote(*) in another thread with a member who writes from a similar perspective to you (but with rather more wit, it has to be said). More Ask Arby's About Clothes.(**)



manton said:


> Since I like this analogy, I will continue with it.
> 
> Arby's Man and a classically trained French chef have different world views, maybe. But the chef has knoweldge of something -- lots of it. He has learned a centuries-old tradition, learned fundamentals, technique, and basic recipes. Then he has experience putting all that into practice, both making things the orthodox way, and changing them according to his interests, the ingredients he finds, whatever.
> 
> ...


(*) Credit to arkirshner for remembering it.

(**) Credit to Haffman for coining the expression.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> https://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=77


Your score: 15 :aportnoy:

Green to blue let me down.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I got it from an earlier thread here: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...nline-Color-Challenge&highlight=www.xrite.com


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

I tend to agree that very dark suits that are virtually indiscernible from black should count as black. Really, if you are a hater on black then is makes no sense that you would find any extremely dark color appropriate for business wear. They will suffer from the same issues as black - especially charcoal gray which borders on black.

The other thing is not everyone favors black with regard to complexion and hair color. This is something that gets lost in the argument that black is bad for everyone (excluding occupations like funeral director, waiter, or limousine driver). I suspect asians tend to be more amenable to wearing black because of their high contrast hair to complexion where the dark suit frames their face and highlights it well. The typical caucasian fair skinned american probably just doesn't look all that good in black in the first place.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

JBierly said:


> I tend to agree that very dark suits that are virtually indiscernible from black should count as black


I have no problem discerning the difference. Some people do.

I have no problem telling burgundy from forest green, but my father does (he's R/G colorblind). Doesn't mean that wearing one green sock and one red sock is good strategy.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Black and charcoal are distinguishable at close range and that's when it counts. If no one can tell a block away it doesn't make a difference, we do not interact with one another from such a distance. There is not only a generational factor at work, there is also (please believe me, I do not mean to start a flame war), a class factor. For the most part, through all of history clothing style has started at the top and later picked up by those down the pecking order. Trickle down style, if you will. 

Of late the process seems to be reversed. Blue jeans and black suits and much more are trickling up only to find more and more resistance the higher the altitude. Blue jeans began their rise in the 60s (Pres. Kennedy wore khakis and the like, I doubt he had a pair of jeans),and have been more successful in climbing but even blue jeans have yet to make it all the way. It is easy to see how out of place Gov. Romney looks when trying to dress like a man of the people. 

Cuff has made the cogent observation that there are those higher up the ladder, himself included, that find a man wearing a black suit has less class, (my word not his), than a man in charcoal. Cuff is not alone, I feel the same way. Cuff and I and others recognize that this is a prejudice. While he and I and others can try to recognize a prejudice when it comes up and consciously try to not let it affect our behavior, there are others who do not recognize their prejudices, or if they do, allow the prejudice to affect behavior. Cuff has further observed that there are consequences; a man wearing a black suit must take responsibility for the fact that there are those who may treat him differently because of the black suit, and that these consequences can be avoided simply by wearing charcoal. Cuff's words should be listened to by any man trying to climb the ladder.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

dbhdbhdbh said:


> As I said, the intensity with which people care about this fascinates me.
> 
> As for argumentation style, I suppose this is a variant of ad hominen? "I don't like you. People I don't like are always wrong. Therefore you are wrong. No need to address the points. My main goal is now to convince everyone else they should not like you, so they will also be uninterested in the points." This one certainly works in political campaigns, apparently the reason behind negative ads.
> 
> ...


Black offers the most contrast. Less contrast than the most contrast is most often better for most men in most lighting conditions, excluding night in a warm light like candlelight.

Black is not an absolute. It's the word humans made to describe a very specific short range of "color". Therefore, is perfectly distinguishable.

If you go to a paint shop, you can buy black paint. If you go to a cloth shop, black cloth is available. If the shop is good, you won't leave with charcoal or midnight blue or bottle green if looking for black.

You're slightly deconstructivist argument opens you up for a broad array of counter arguments. If color is relative, what are we talking about? I will pick a middle ground where, sure, the individual interpretation of black is relevant. However, it's a functioning concept. I can buy black things. I can agree with a very, very large group of people that an object, even studied carefully, is black.

You are just another person on a clothing forum wondering why people care about clothes. Unfortunately, that's not very fun. There's a whole global nation of Hunns with that exact notion firmly entrenched in their minds standing right outside the gates.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

arkirshner said:


> Black and charcoal are distinguishable at close range and that's when it counts. If no one can tell a block away it doesn't make a difference, we do not interact with one another from such a distance. There is not only a generational factor at work, there is also (please believe me, I do not mean to start a flame war), a class factor. For the most part, through all of history clothing style has started at the top and later picked up by those down the pecking order. Trickle down style, if you will.
> 
> Of late the process seems to be reversed. Blue jeans and black suits and much more are trickling up only to find more and more resistance the higher the altitude. Blue jeans began their rise in the 60s (Pres. Kennedy wore khakis and the like, I doubt he had a pair of jeans),and have been more successful in climbing but even blue jeans have yet to make it all the way. It is easy to see how out of place Gov. Romney looks when trying to dress like a man of the people.
> 
> Cuff has made the cogent observation that there are those higher up the ladder, himself included, that find a man wearing a black suit has less class, (my word not his), than a man in charcoal. Cuff is not alone, I feel the same way. Cuff and I and others recognize that this is a prejudice. While he and I and others can try to recognize a prejudice when it comes up and consciously try to not let it affect our behavior, there are others who do not recognize their prejudices, or if they do, allow the prejudice to affect behavior. Cuff has further observed that there are consequences; a man wearing a black suit must take responsibility for the fact that there are those who may treat him differently because of the black suit, and that these consequences can be avoided simply by wearing charcoal. Cuff's words should be listened to by any man trying to climb the ladder.


I agree. In my experience men who wear black suits were not raised by fathers who wore suits. Instead, they wear black suits because either (i) they are influenced by the practices of celebrities or (ii) they naively assume that black is the most conservative color and therefore safest from the standpoint of acceptability. I don't think any less of a man because he wears a black suit (unless I have reason to believe his choice was animated by (i) in which case maybe just a little ), but I do think less of his suit.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

arkirshner said:


> and our friend, Salgy is in the service industry.


don't drag me into this :crazy:


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

just kidding...

the difference from where i sit, is this:
yes, i own a black suit... yes, i wear said suit to the 15-20 weddings I host annually... but, unlike our friend dbh, i consider it my _uniform_ for these occasions... something to distinguish myself from the guests, if even just slightly... would i be more comfortable in charcoal or navy? definitely...

dbh, being a member here you have to take the "rules" and apply them to your particular location. what works for me in memphis is not going to work for Mr. Kirshner in toledo, or Cuffdaddy & Mike P in atlanta, or Balfour & Shaver in england... you shouldn't just spout off about how the "rules" are wrong, antiquated, outdated, etc... it makes you sound ignorant... just think about this: the particular "rule" that these wise, well-read & experienced members of the fora are sharing with you may just not apply in your circumstance or situation or location...

as an example: here in memphis, for every 10 men i see in suits, 9 will be wearing loafers. does that mean that loafers are acceptable to wear with suits? i know the "right" answer is no, they are not preferable, but guess what? when i'm in memphis, it is acceptable to wear loafers with suits... and i will, on occasion, break this little sartorial rule (shhh, don't tell anyone)...


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

arkirshner said:


> Cuff and I and others recognize that this is a prejudice. While he and I and others can try to recognize a prejudice when it comes up and consciously try to not let it affect our behavior, there are others who do not recognize their prejudices, or if they do, allow the prejudice to affect behavior.


Point well taken here.


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## JoshuaNY (Oct 26, 2012)

I have one because of the semi dress code at work. If I am needed to wear a suit for work then the instance in which I am wearing it requires it to be black. (Not sure if that sentence made sense). So like salgy, it is more of a uniform then a choice. 

My other suit is mid grey, which I wear more often.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

But you also live in NYC. No one is going to think twice about someone wearing a black suit in NYC.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

JBierly said:


> But you also live in NYC. No one is going to think twice about someone wearing a black suit in NYC.


I'm in Manhattan regularly. I cannot recall seeing any solid black suits among lawyers, accountants, bankers or clients. I'm honestly beginning to think that Cuff et al are on to something when they say that some folks cannot distinguish between dark gray and black. That said, I don't mingle regularly with the theater or advertising crowds.


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## JackKelly (Dec 20, 2011)

Inspired :wink2: by this thread, as a lark, I went out and bought a solid black Boss 3 button suit and wore it to work yesterday, sans tie, paired with an H&K blue OCBD. With the narrow lapels, flat front pants, tapered waist, it looked pretty sharp. Now, the quality of the cloth on the Boss is pure crap compared to what I'm used to wearing, but I did think the outfit presented well and I got several compliments. By the way, I am the CFO of a largish corporation in the Washington, DC area.

I probably won't wear that outfit to work again. It was fun, though.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

JackKelly said:


> Inspired :wink2: by this thread, as a lark, I went out and bought a solid black Boss 3 button suit and wore it to work yesterday, sans tie, paired with an H&K blue OCBD. With the narrow lapels, flat front pants, tapered waist, it looked pretty sharp. Now, the quality of the cloth on the Boss is pure crap compared to what I'm used to wearing, but I did think the outfit presented well and I got several compliments. By the way, I am the CFO of a largish corporation in the Washington, DC area.
> 
> I probably won't wear that outfit to work again. It was fun, though.


You've just ticked off a lot of the 'dreadful' boxes for me: black suit: check; skinny lapels: check; tieless suit: check; flat-fronted trousers (with low rise?): check.

But, I've got to admit, that was pretty funny (if true)!:wink2:


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

JackKelly said:


> Inspired :wink2: by this thread, as a lark, I went out and bought a solid black Boss 3 button suit and wore it to work yesterday, sans tie, paired with an H&K blue OCBD. With the narrow lapels, flat front pants, tapered waist, it looked pretty sharp. Now, the quality of the cloth on the Boss is pure crap compared to what I'm used to wearing, but I did think the outfit presented well and I got several compliments. By the way, I am the CFO of a largish corporation in the Washington, DC area.
> 
> I probably won't wear that outfit to work again. It was fun, though.


You can see on post 8 that I performed a similar experiment (without the OCBD!) and got similar - positive - results.

Anyway, must dash, I'm off to Arby's for lunch :smile:


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## JackKelly (Dec 20, 2011)

Balfour said:


> You've just ticked off a lot of the 'dreadful' boxes for me: black suit: check; skinny lapels: check; tieless suit: check; flat-fronted trousers (with low rise?): check.
> 
> But, I've got to admit, that was pretty funny (if true)!:wink2:


Oh, it is absolutely true.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

JackKelly said:


> Inspired :wink2: by this thread, as a lark, I went out and bought a solid black Boss 3 button suit and wore it to work yesterday, sans tie, paired with an H&K blue OCBD. With the narrow lapels, flat front pants, tapered waist, it looked pretty sharp. Now, the quality of the cloth on the Boss is pure crap compared to what I'm used to wearing, but I did think the outfit presented well and I got several compliments. By the way, I am the CFO of a largish corporation in the Washington, DC area.
> 
> I probably won't wear that outfit to work again. It was fun, though.


And in your largish corporation in the Washingto DC area, who would dare criticise the CFO?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

arkirshner said:


> And in your largish corporation in the Washingto DC area, who would dare criticise the CFO?


aha! Are we suggesting that sycophancy mouthed those several compliments? The staff perhaps later privately derided the appaling taste of the black suit? I'm willing to consider the validity of this notion. :icon_smile_wink:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

JackKelly said:


> Inspired :wink2: by this thread, as a lark, I went out and bought a solid black Boss 3 button suit and wore it to work yesterday, sans tie, paired with an H&K blue OCBD. With the narrow lapels, flat front pants, tapered waist, it looked pretty sharp. Now, the quality of the cloth on the Boss is pure crap compared to what I'm used to wearing, but I did think the outfit presented well and I got several compliments.


Once, when I was in elementary school, I wore a white jumpsuit break-dancing outfit to school (it was the 80's, a different time...). I got lots of compliments. I did not wear it a second time.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

JackKelly said:


> Inspired :wink2: by this thread, as a lark, I went out and bought a solid black Boss 3 button suit and wore it to work yesterday, sans tie, paired with an H&K blue OCBD. With the narrow lapels, flat front pants, tapered waist, it looked pretty sharp. Now, the quality of the cloth on the Boss is pure crap compared to what I'm used to wearing, but I did think the outfit presented well and I got several compliments. By the way, I am the CFO of a largish corporation in the Washington, DC area.
> 
> I probably won't wear that outfit to work again. It was fun, though.


Just curious, do you work with a friend of mine named Dilbert?


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> Just curious, do you work with a friend of mine named Dilbert?


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> Once, when I was in elementary school, I wore a white jumpsuit break-dancing outfit to school (it was the 80's, a different time...). I got lots of compliments. I did not wear it a second time.


You may wish to submit a photo of that auspicious occasion on the 'What Were You Wearing Yesterday?' thread ?! :wink2:


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Shaver said:


> aha! Are we suggesting that sycophancy mouthed those several compliments? The staff perhaps later privately derided the appaling taste of the black suit? I'm willing to consider the validity of this notion. :icon_smile_wink:


Sir,

Washington DC is the capital of the United States of America, we have regulations against such things.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Once, when I was in elementary school, I wore a white jumpsuit break-dancing outfit to school (it was the 80's, a different time...). I got lots of compliments. I did not wear it a second time.





Haffman said:


> You may wish to submit a photo of that auspicious occasion on the 'What Were You Wearing Yesterday?' thread ?! :wink2:


I just hope the trousers had a satisfactory rise and decent pleats. :icon_jokercolor:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Haffman said:


> You may wish to submit a photo of that auspicious occasion on the 'What Were You Wearing Yesterday?' thread ?! :wink2:


None exist. I will not comment about the measures taken to ensure the truth of that statement.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Shaver said:


> I just hope the trousers had a satisfactory rise and decent pleats. :icon_jokercolor:


I don't know exactly how one measures the rise on a jump suit.

Rather than pleats, this particular number relied on numerous zippers for its variable geometry (again, it was the 80's). I don't recall their weight helping as much with the drape as one might have expected.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Wow, such controversy over a simple thing like a black suit - who knew? :icon_smile: Even controversy about what constitutues "black" - now that really surprised me.

I own a solid black suit. It gets regular 3-season rotation (not worn in the summer). I don't find that it looks like navy, or midnight blue, or dark charcoal, or anything else that isn't actually black. It's a versatile platform for a great many shirt / tie / pocket square combinations. It's a fairly recent addition - less than a year old. I didn't own a black suit for perhaps 10 or more years before, so it's not like I can't live without it. But now that I have a black suit, I'm happy that I do and will likely keep one in the rotation going forward.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Once, when I was in elementary school, I wore a white jumpsuit break-dancing outfit to school (it was the 80's, a different time...). I got lots of compliments. I did not wear it a second time.


Early inspiration from Tom Wolfe?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> I don't know exactly how one measures the rise on a jump suit.
> 
> Rather than pleats, this particular number relied on numerous zippers for its variable geometry (again, it was the 80's). I don't recall their weight helping as much with the drape as one might have expected.


From the inside leg to the waist.....?

Any way, more importantly, the burning issue of the day - _can *you* break dance_?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Any way, more importantly, the burning issue of the day - _can *you* break dance_?


No. There's not enough room in my office.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> No. There's not enough room in my office.


Aww cos I had this pitch for a movie:

Atlanta's well known and lovable dandy lawyer distracts the judge with applejacks and a headspin during a court case to keep the roller disco open in spite of it's slumlord owner.

Ah well, back to the drawing board.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Isn't applejack booze? This thread needs booze...


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> Isn't applejack booze? This thread needs booze...


:biggrin2:

Man in the Black Suit to Balfour: "You, Mr. Balfour, are drunk!"

Balfour to Man in the Black Suit: "Yes, and you, Sir, have no taste. But tomorrow, I shall be sober."


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## JackKelly (Dec 20, 2011)

Mike Petrik said:


> Just curious, do you work with a friend of mine named Dilbert?


No, I'm not the pointy-headed boss. That's my boss.:smile:


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Balfour said:


> :biggrin2:
> 
> Man in the Black Suit to Balfour: "You, Mr. Balfour, are drunk!"
> 
> Balfour to Man in the Black Suit: "Yes, and you, Sir, have no taste. But tomorrow, I shall be sober."


that ^ is awesome :icon_cheers:


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

salgy said:


> that ^ is awesome :icon_cheers:


I should obviously credit Mr. Churchill! But thanks.:wink2:


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> I'm in Manhattan regularly. I cannot recall seeing any solid black suits among lawyers, accountants, bankers or clients. I'm honestly beginning to think that Cuff et al are on to something when they say that some folks cannot distinguish between dark gray and black. That said, I don't mingle regularly with the theater or advertising crowds.


I'm in advertising and on the rare occasion someone wears a suit, it's not black. We're creative people and we like colour.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Matt S said:


> I'm in advertising and on the rare occasion someone wears a suit, it's not black. We're creative people and we like colour.


Understood, Matt. Please know that I was not suggesting otherwise, only admitting what I didn't know.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Shaver said:


> Aww cos I had this pitch for a movie:
> 
> Atlanta's well known and lovable dandy lawyer distracts the judge with applejacks and a headspin during a court case to keep the roller disco open in spite of it's slumlord owner.


This sounds vaguely familiar. Could it be a variation on the Linda Blair vehicle, "Roller Boogie", circa 1980?

In the early days of HBO, my brother and I spent a lot of days watching "RB" and "Final Countdown" over and over again. One had Linda Blair in spandex tights and the other had a time-traveling aircraft carrier trying to prevent the attack on Pearl Harbor. My brother turned out OK, but as you can see, I was irreparably damaged.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm wearing mine to the symphony tonight. Pepe Romero is performing with the LB Symphony and there is a champagne reception beforehand for all the new season ticket holders. Black suit, white shirt with gold and diamond cufflinks, blue tie that matches my eyes, white pocket square, red boutonniere, AE captoes and a signet ring. I will leave the hat and stick behind because the auditorium lacks a hat check, unfortunately.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> the other had a time-traveling aircraft carrier trying to prevent the attack on Pearl Harbor.


My brother and I loved that movie as kids! The damage was quite extensive.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> *This sounds vaguely familiar. Could it be a variation on the Linda Blair vehicle, "Roller Boogie", circa 1980? *
> 
> In the early days of HBO, my brother and I spent a lot of days watching "RB" and "Final Countdown" over and over again. One had Linda Blair in spandex tights and the other had a time-traveling aircraft carrier trying to prevent the attack on Pearl Harbor. My brother turned out OK, but as you can see, I was irreparably damaged.


Hello Snow Hill Pond, I was just trying to keep the pitch in accord with the current Hollywood inability to write an original script and thus pander to it's appetite for constantly derivative re-makes, re-imaginings and downright rip-offs. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

CuffDaddy said:


> My brother and I loved that movie as kids! The damage was quite extensive.


They don't make movies like that anymore.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Shaver said:


> Hello Snow Hill Pond, I was just trying to keep the pitch in accord with the current Hollywood inability to write an original script and thus pander to it's appetite for constantly derivative re-makes, re-imaginings and downright rip-offs. :icon_smile_wink:


If they can remake "Red Dawn", then a variation on "Roller Boogie" is fair game.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I thought the "Red Dawn" remake was pretty much kaput?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Jovan said:


> I thought the "Red Dawn" remake was pretty much kaput?


They're running ads for it now.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

CuffDaddy said:


> They're running ads for it now.


Outstanding. Big family Thanksgiving in small town IL involves movie tradition. Selection solved!


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

I've been away for a few weeks. Is dbh still wearing himself out not caring?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

CuffDaddy said:


> They're running ads for it now.


Ugh...


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