# Anyone here into high end audio or vinyl records?



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I am and was curious if anyone else has the bug.

I'm looking at a VPI Scout or Scoutmaster for Christmas. I love the analog sound. 

What systems do you have?

Do you listen to vinyl?

Do you have a VPI turntable?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Yes, but kids and real life have made actual listening a real challenge.

Current big rig has a VPI TT-- small rig (used to be primary) has a Linn Axis.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Excellent! What VPI table do you have Concordia?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

An Aries, I think, or the one just a notch below it. Not the tiniest, and not at all a really nasty expensive one.

Been a while since I've worried much about it.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Terrific. What type of music do you like?


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

Current rig:
Tweaked Sumiko Pro-Ject 6.1, Blue Point Special, McIntosh pre. 

The Pro-Ject's are very similar to the current Music Hall 'tables. I've always wanted a nice Sota Sapphire, or LP12 to play around with, though.

A VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine is also very helpful.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I'm afraid I'm stuck with entry-level hi-fi. I have a B&K reference 5 S2 pre-amp and 125.2 going through through some maggies. I have a Music Hall CD player, but no turntable.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I like the Bluepoint carts a lot.

ksinc,

That's a great system with better than entry level sound. Music Hall makes a great CD player, as does B&K an amp, and I am a huge Maggie fan. I have 1.6s which I drive with tube amps.


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## Richie_G (Jun 19, 2006)

*Revel Studio?*

I bought the Revel Studios last year but never used them. Their still in the corner. I never bought the rest of the system. Anyone use Revel?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I like the Bluepoint carts a lot.
> 
> ksinc,
> 
> That's a great system with better than entry level sound. Music Hall makes a great CD player, as does B&K an amp, and I am a huge Maggie fan. I have 1.6s which I drive with tube amps.


1.6s are nice. Did you start with the MMGs and work your way up?

I have the MMGs now and find they are very appropriate for smooth jazz over the FM tuner (maybe an occasional Sting CD) 

The B&K 125.2 seems to be plenty for the MMGs, but I'm not sure if it would drive your 1.6s or not. I like the B&K sound. I would call it "warm, but clear."


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I actually bought some IIIAs and worked backward to save some money. I may try to get some 3.6s in the summer. I like the full ribbon tweeter.

I use a 100 watt (very conservative, more like 140 watt) Audio Research VT-100 to drive my speakers. I like the naturalness of tube amps.


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## SGladwell (Dec 22, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> What systems do you have?


*Main (HT)*
Sources: TT (can't be bothered to look at what it is right now, as I'm in a different room), Denon standalone tuner, Charter Moxi box TV tuner/HD/DVR, Apple Mac mini (Intel) connected to a 500MB Firewire drive to store my music library.
Pre/Proc/Room Correction: TacT Theater Correction System.
Amps: This is a serious system, so separate amps were out of the question.
LCR Speakers: Genelec 1037 active monitors with waveguide-loaded midrange and tweeter.
Surround side and back speakers: Smaller Genelec active monitors, don't remember model #
Subwoofers: 4x Paradigm Servo-15, arranged per Welty, et al., for maximally even bass coverage (at the expense of extreme LF extension and output).
Other: Logitech Harmony remote, bass traps and other room treatments designed for the room.
Cords: Radio Shack optical, Canare Star-Quad XLR, one XLR splitter from Guitar Center for the side subwoofers because the TCS only has three subwoofer outputs. No speaker cables because my amps are where amps are supposed to be on high-fidelity equipment, i.e. integrated into the speakers downstream of active crossovers, each one controlling a single drive unit directly.

Comments: I've never heard a better audio system overall. Dynamic compression is essentially nonexistent due to the big Genelecs and plenty of displacement on the bottom end. My old ALTEC 604's did some neat stuff, but they were much more colored than the Genelecs. I have no planned or anticipated upgrades, which for me is really saying something.

*Sunroom*
Source: Apple Airport Express, iPod 4G, or iPod Shuffle
Preamp: Harman/Kardon receiver
Amps: Bryston 3BST, 2x Parts Express rackmount Class G for the woofers
Speakers: Martin-Logan Monolith III (thrift store find, upgraded with the Peerless XLS woofers Genelec uses in their subwoofers and panels reconditioned by ML)
Wires: Whatever was laying around.

Comments: The wrong speakers for this room sonically due to the reflections, but they never fail as a conversation piece and the price was more than right. They are certainly much better than the pathetic, puny, but pretty Sonic Faber Electas they replaced.

*Office*
Source: Apple MacBook Pro (Core Duo), AirTunes to grab main library
Receiver: Panasonic SA-XR57 (TacT digital amp technology)
Speakers: JBL LSR6332 3-way studio monitors with oblate-sphereoid waveguide on the tweeter (soffit mounted)
Wires: present

Comment: I'm happy with this system, and the LSR6332's are possibly the best value in hi-fidelity (as opposed to "High End") audio today. I'm also constantly scouting eBay and Craigslist for a pair of 15" Tannoys (or ALTEC 604's with the Mantaray horn) to replace them. Or, if I should come in to an extra $6k or so, I'll ditch them for a pair of Gedlee Summas in a heartbeat.



Artisan Fan said:


> Do you listen to vinyl?


Occasionally, though I find it such a pain. First you have to break out the vacuum record cleaner, then you have to make sure everything's in adjustment, and only then do you get...a less hi-fidelity (but to some more enjoyable) musical experience. Most of my vinyl collection was burned into Apple Lossless files by a local audio store.



Artisan Fan said:


> Do you have a VPI turntable?


No. I do have my dad's old Linn Sondek, but it needs some work. I don't think it has seen use for 20 years.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> and only then do you get...a less hi-fidelity (but to some more enjoyable) musical experience


I think a good LP can handily beat a good CD in many ways.

You should fix up your dad's Sondek. They can produce good sound and are supported by a large installed community.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

I am not in your guys class, but for my divorce present to myself I bought Arcam components, amp, tuner and CD. I have an old reel to reel and many many albuns on tape. I decided I wanted to save all on cd and thought of doing it through the computer (bad move) but it did get me to buy a new TT, and I got a nice music hall, again, not audiophile territory, but very nice just the same. I also have very old EPI speakers and some newer cambridge soundworks, I want small, again, I know there are better but I don't listen all that often anymore. When I bought the Arcam amp I hooked it up to my speakers and my Pioneer 9100 as well (this was at that time over 20 years old and still going strong)...the thing I noticed the most was the warmth of the English components...I have been sold since.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Would like to listen to some old 45's again. Even got the 45's Christmas records from Elemetary school that I used to hear in first grade.

I wish they would start putting music on DVDs.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I am not in your guys class, but for my divorce present to myself I bought Arcam components


I'm very familiar with Arcam. Terrific stuff!


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

While I am not a serious audiophile and have little expertise in high end audio, I recently needed to replace an old turntable in order to continue listening to some old phonograph records in my collection. I was surprised how difficult it was to find a good quality turntable in the Washington, DC area. Few of the audio or electronics stores in the region keep them in stock and I am still a reluctant online shopper for products I have not seen in person. I assumed that this would indicate that vinyl was truly on its last legs (there are turntables that assist in transferring vinyl to digital storage), yet my 18 year old daughter points out the increasing number of young musicians who are actually issuing new vinyl recordings. Thoughts?


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I never had really good equipment, but I did have a collection of about 5,000 albums. The whole kit and caboodle was stolen from my Albuquerque apartment while I was away on a fishing trip.

I hate CDs. I don't think they sound all that great, they're easily damaged and I can't read the agate type on the liner notes. Pfui.

I had a mono copy of "Meet the Beatles" with the Capitol rainbow label. Man, the music just jumped out of the speakers.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

medwards said:


> While I am not a serious audiophile and have little expertise in high end audio, I recently needed to replace an old turntable in order to continue listening to some old phonograph records in my collection. I was surprised how difficult it was to find a good quality turntable in the Washington, DC area. Few of the audio or electronics stores in the region keep them in stock and I am still a reluctant online shopper for products I have not seen in person. I assumed that this would indicate that vinyl was truly on its last legs (there are turntables that assist in transferring vinyl to digital storage), yet my 18 year old daughter points out the increasing number of young musicians who are actually issuing new vinyl recordings. Thoughts?


The middle is vanishing-- with vinyl you are increasingly seeing the very cheap and the very expensive.

Some British makers are still holding up pretty well, I think-- look for a dealer for Rega or Linn in your area. Those brands might not be exactly what you want, but a dealer carrying them will likely have a bead on something else you will like.


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## queueball (Jun 16, 2005)

Concordia said:


> The middle is vanishing-- with vinyl you are increasingly seeing the very cheap and the very expensive.
> 
> Some British makers are still holding up pretty well, I think-- look for a dealer for Rega or Linn in your area. Those brands might not be exactly what you want, but a dealer carrying them will likely have a bead on something else you will like.


I purchased a Rega turntable, cartridge and a preamp from Galen Carol (www.gcaudio.com) several years ago and am very happy with them. Galen himself answered the phone when I called and walked me through several choices. He actually steered me away from more expensive components based on answeres I gave to several questions. Also, when I had a problem with setting the system up (it was user error) I called him and he spent 20 minutes on the phone walking me through some troubleshooting steps.

Even though I live several hundred miles away from his store (Atlanta to San Antonio) I would certainly purchase from him again.

Alex


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I recently got my VPI ScoutMaster table:


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

I have all my old LP's. Including many from the Beatles, like Meet the Beatles, Second Album, Something New, Rubber Soul, etc.

M8


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I'd love to have a copy of Rubber Soul.


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## queueball (Jun 16, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I recently got my VPI ScoutMaster table:


Ahem......Nice rack!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I assumed that this would indicate that vinyl was truly on its last legs (there are turntables that assist in transferring vinyl to digital storage), yet my 18 year old daughter points out the increasing number of young musicians who are actually issuing new vinyl recordings. Thoughts?


There's be a huge resurgence of vinyl and turntable availability since the mid-90s. I think a couple of things are driving this:
1. Vinyl is retro cool.
2. Vinyl is a very high resolution audio format and the digital hirez formats like SACD and DVDA are dying so audiophiles are getting back into it.
3. Great new pop and rock albums are being pressed into LPs.
4. Many of the best versions of classic pop, jazz, and classical is only available on LP.
5. Even well mastered CDs don't sound half as good as a decent table and good pressing.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> I'd love to have a copy of Rubber Soul.


I think it was their best, before the made the "cultural shift" with Sgt Pepper.

Wish I knew what happened to my Sgt Pepper LP. Remember all that weird stuff with the "Paul is dead" hoax?

M8


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Stereo*

Gentlemen

I have, since the mid 1970 time period, owned Bang & Olufsen.
I love them now, simple, beautiful pieces.
Very nice stuff, very nice sound


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

And very heady prices.


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

Here are my reasons for having a turntable:

1. I don't like the sound of most CDs. To me, they usually sound harsh and tinny. This usually isn't the fault of the CD itself, rather, the poor mastering behind it. Mastering a record takes skill and forthought, people *think* mastering a CD is plug and chug.

2. I can get used records in very good condition for $3. A trip 'round my record cleaning machine and they are as good as new.

That being said, records have significant drawbacks. Lousy SNR, awful channel separation, and a reduced dynamic range at certain frequencies are among them. If the mastering engineer knows what they are doing, these aren't such a big deal.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Stereo*

Gentlemen,

medwards, I agree, but, to me an investment, like a nice auto, or ones education.
My first piece goes back some time, and then just stayed with B&O over the years.
Bad habit, I picked up in Europe, when in service.
LOL

Nice day


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I don't like the sound of most CDs. To me, they usually sound harsh and tinny. This usually isn't the fault of the CD itself, rather, the poor mastering behind it.


And in my opinion the limitations of a very low sampling rate at 44.1khz. Higher sampling starts to sound like real music.



> Lousy SNR, awful channel separation, and a reduced dynamic range at certain frequencies are among them. If the mastering engineer knows what they are doing, these aren't such a big deal.


Actually a good table handles most of these issues completely. And the estimated sample rate is around 100khz according to Bob Ludwig, one of the top mastering engineers. That sampling rate means more detail/resolution on playback than a CD.

With digital audio you have two problematic extras in the recording chain- Analog to Digital conversion for the disc and Digital to Analog for the playback. Neither of which is perfect or any good sounding although it's gotten a little better.


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> And in my opinion the limitations of a very low sampling rate at 44.1khz. Higher sampling starts to sound like real music.


44.1K is fine. Most people can't hear much past 19KHz anyways, especially if you're over 40. My hearing tops out at around 19.5KHz, though I haven't been tested recently.



> Actually a good table handles most of these issues completely. And the estimated sample rate is around 100khz according to Bob Ludwig, one of the top mastering engineers. That sampling rate means more detail/resolution on playback than a CD.


Er, sorta. Records can theoretically store audio information up in the high double digit KHz range, but it won't be very useful, and if there is any bass information at that point, it would wipe out anything high frequency. The problem isn't that records can't go higher or lower than CD's, it's that their bandwidth is limited. They can go high, or low, or in between, but can't do both very well. And, no matter how good the 'table and cart is, you can't fix the channel seperation issue with better playback, it's a limitation of encoding both channels in one groove.



> With digital audio you have two problematic extras in the recording chain- Analog to Digital conversion for the disc and Digital to Analog for the playback. Neither of which is perfect or any good sounding although it's gotten a little better.


Actually, digital playback can be quite excellent, even with CD players. Stock digital audio hardware has become so good that high end CD manufacturers have to keep coming up with new problems to get you to buy new gear. RFI, spurious light, unaligned substrate molecules, mechanical jitter, etc... It's kind of fun trying to figure out what they'll think of next


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> 44.1K is fine.


I politely disagree. I do recordings of jazz and acoustic musicians in 24/96 and the difference in the amount of detail is significant. One of the things that 44 cannot do well at all is the shimmer of a cymbal. Only Super Audio or LP or 24/96 PCM seem to get that right.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

I heard an interesting A/B demo of 44.1K digital vs. hi-res. The CD-standard didn't sound at all bad, but the higher sampling-rate format wiped the floor with it. Not a subtle difference.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Concordia,

I have attended and given a few of those demos as well. It's like lines of resolution between a VHS tape and a DVD. The extra information being captured and played back makes a difference.


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## The Wife (Feb 4, 2006)

I'm sometimes into low-tech, with what used to be high-tech recreated by _Crosley_: a three-speed turntable (33 rpm, 45 rpm, and 78 rpm), so that I can listen to my mother's old, scratchy records from Europe and Scandinavia, as well as my old albums.


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## SGladwell (Dec 22, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> And in my opinion the limitations of a very low sampling rate at 44.1khz. Higher sampling starts to sound like real music.


At least, that's the line fed to people by audio reviewers who have been fighting a rear-guard action against modern audio from the beginning. The same can be seen in their newfound support for digital amps (Tripath, TacT, B&O ICEpower) after decades of slamming solid-state amps that nobody can distinguish from a digital amp - or a good tube amp - under any kind of controlled setting!

The truth is, right now many recordings done at higher sampling rates are better, but _not_ because of that fact. They are better because they are mastered with more care, further away from digital clipping, and with less compression. The same could easily be done with Red Book Audio.



Artisan Fan said:


> Actually a good table handles most of these issues completely. And the estimated sample rate is around 100khz according to Bob Ludwig, one of the top mastering engineers. That sampling rate means more detail/resolution on playback than a CD.


Sorry, man, but you're just kidding yourself here. Vinyl is equivalent in resolution to 10-12 bit digital sampled at a much lower rate than CD. Vinyl also has _much_ poorer bass resolution, as the needle can quite literally jump out of the groove if asked to track bass transients recorded to be reproduced at accurate levels after RIAA EQ. (Never mind that the need for primitive analog EQ inevitably adds noise and phase distortion to vinyl.) Some person may say something different, but there's a difference between faith and reality that quite often seems to elude you, whether the topic of discussion is audio, politics, or "handwork." CD has a ~30dB dynamic range advantage on vinyl, and SACD/DVDA improve on that. (Even though most people don't have speakers that are capable of resolving the additional dynamics. Your Maggies included.) Even the most delicate MC cartridge perfectly set up and playing a virgin record isn't much good beyond 16kHz in the real world, corresponding to a 32kHz sampling rate in digital terms. Play the record 10x and simple surface erosion will cut the usable treble down to 12-14kHz, or a 24-28kHz sampling rate. CD is simply a better format for reproducing music, assuming that accuracy is what one's after. Whether some old tin-eared Luddites want to realize it or not. The only place vinyl beats CD is in aesthetics; a well-crafted turntable is a work of art, while the sonic difference between a tacky plastic universal DVD player from China and a beautiful Meridian or Sony ES CD player is nonexistent..

True, some people are too old to hear the difference, and most "audiophiles" run speakers with such compromised dynamic range, LF dynamics, and treble dispersion, that they wouldn't be able to hear the difference if if their ears were up to the task. And audio dealers like digital a whole lot less than analog because digital all sounds the same but it takes an expensive turntable and various accessories (vacuum cleaner, mat, etc) to get vinyl sounding good.



Artisan Fan said:


> With digital audio you have two problematic extras in the recording chain- Analog to Digital conversion for the disc and Digital to Analog for the playback. Neither of which is perfect or any good sounding although it's gotten a little better.


As if dragging a pointy rock through an echo-filled trench and then cajoling the signal through an extra analog EQ stage is any better! Seriously, you sound like you're getting your audio advice from Olga Berluti.



queueball said:


> I purchased a Rega turntable, cartridge and a preamp from Galen Carol (www.gcaudio.com) several years ago and am very happy with them. <snip> Even though I live several hundred miles away from his store (Atlanta to San Antonio) I would certainly purchase from him again.


If you want a shop closer to home the best audio dealer in the area is Audio Atlanta, who are up 75 a ways from Atlanta proper. AA is the only one I've thought enough of return to. I don't know off the top of my head what they carry in vinyl, but there are several brands. More important to me, they edit their speaker offerings well, cherry-picking from marques like Tannoy, Boston Acoustics, and Martin-Logan. (They also do business in vintage speakers and electronics. Last time I was there they had a pair of Dahlquist DQ10's for sale.) They have a selection of recordings for purchase as well. So long as you like the impeccably-recorded insipid jazz performances that make up the the bulk of the audiophile recording canon. They carry some very pretty and very expensive electronics that don't sound any better than cheaper and uglier electronics but cost a lot more. Unlike many dealers, when they get a customer with some sense and a rudimentary knowledge of the laws of physics they quickly shut up about the magical properties of various overpriced copper extrusions that sell to lottery winners and small-brained types who think that Jonathan Scull is anything but a fool. Peter and Gordon were very helpful with advice on getting my ML Monolith III's sounding decent, even though I ended up choosing a different woofer than they suggested. Audio Atlanta's only flaw, in my view, is their failure to pick up a brand with a modern room correction system, such as TacT or DEQX; I wish they would wrest TacT and Avalon Acoustics from that shop over by the Variety Playhouse.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The truth is, right now many recordings done at higher sampling rates are better, but _not_ because of that fact. They are better because they are mastered with more care, further away from digital clipping, and with less compression. The same could easily be done with Red Book Audio.


No true. SG, we record in both formats during a session 44.1 and either 88.2 or 96khz. The mastering is the same as its an original recording and the extra sampling rate makes a huge difference. The reviewers are right on this one my friend.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> As if dragging a pointy rock through an echo-filled trench and then cajoling the signal through an extra analog EQ stage is any better! Seriously, you sound like you're getting your audio advice from Olga Berluti.


I'm a record producer on weekends for two boutique audiophile labels. I've run everything from DSD converters to analog tape. The implementation of the CD format often does not match the specs you cite even with $20K Weiss converters. I can't easily persuade you here unless you sit in on one of our Atlanta sessions or hear an A/B in my listening room.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Some thoughts from the respected Tim DeParavicini:

https://www.hififorum.nu/artiklar/Timdeparavicini/2.htm

From Bob Ludwig:



> It is customary to believe that the CD is superior to the LP in terms of bandwidth, but this is not the case. The CD is limited to 22,000 cycles, whereas the LP is able to reproduce frequencies up to 50,000 cycles, which in the PCM world equals a sampling rate at 100 kHz. The bottom line is that LPs mastered with DMM still sound really good.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Here's a pic of the gear we use: the Alessis records in both 88.2 and 96 and the ADC1 from Benchmark does the A to D at hirez:


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## TradMichael (Apr 13, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> I am and was curious if anyone else has the bug.
> 
> Do you listen to vinyl?


All the time. Maybe not as much as before because of the explosion of Internet radio, and lots of great stations, but I do have a whole lot of records.


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

*on and off*

Used to buy LOTS of music, though never went off the wall for super-high-end audio equipment. My brother got me to convert my CDs to hard disk which is handy for creating playlists and accessing the entire catalogue wirelessly anywhere in the house or on the property, which is a nice feature convenience-wise.

Also recently purchased a turntable (my old one died in the early 90s) since I never got rid of the lps, and have dabbled in conversion of lps to digital files.

No end of possibilities audio-wise here:

https://www.audiocircle.com/

As near as I can tell, there is absolutely no limit to the money you can spend on audio equipment. My ears are not good enough to go down that road, however :icon_smile:


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I've been using my Scoutmaster for a month now and it's a blast. I picked up 3 classic albums for $20 today from used records stores and the pressings are terrific sonically.

Analog just has an easy of flow and breath of life that is hard to find in digital.

You can get into good vinyl playback for around $350 with a Rega P1. You don't have to spend a lot like us crazed audiophiles. There are all sorts of bargain priced gear that sound very good.


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## RVL Saratoga (Apr 18, 2006)

Does anyone here remember Hi Fi Heretic magazine from the old days? I though I was one of the last vinyl holdouts.

I have an old Linn Sondek and Krell setup.

Robert

PS - Anyone else use a Nitty Gritty record cleaner? Is there anything better around these days?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

RVL Saratoga said:


> Does anyone here remember Hi Fi Heretic magazine from the old days?


I liked his writing. Got squeezed for lack of ad revenue, and gave up the ghost.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I just added in a Grado Sonata cartridge today and the analog rig rose dramatically in quality. You should hear the bass on the Remain in Light reissue.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I have an old Linn Sondek and Krell setup.
> 
> PS - Anyone else use a Nitty Gritty record cleaner? Is there anything better around these days?


1. Great System.
2. Lots of people like the VPI 16.5 cleaning machines. Around $500-600 but durable for decades. Very easy to find parts and thoroughly cleans the vinyl.


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## SGladwell (Dec 22, 2005)

RVL Saratoga said:


> PS - Anyone else use a Nitty Gritty record cleaner? Is there anything better around these days?


I do. It's a good enough piece, a little bit pricey to have cheap vinyl coating on the cabinet but it does the job. As for better, I haven't looked (or for that matter used mine) in quite a while.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Imho:

$300 range the best is Nitty Gritty
$500 range is VPI 16.5
$700 Smart Matrix
$1,000 VPI 17F
$2,000+ VPI Typhoon or Acoustic Sounds' Hannl rebrands.


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Imho:
> 
> $300 range the best is Nitty Gritty
> $500 range is VPI 16.5
> ...


You can get used 16.5's for under $300 if you look hard enough. If anything breaks on them, they are easy enough to refurbish.

For under $50, you can still find Allsop Orbitracs, and the Discwasher brush does a good job, if used with another product. I sometimes use the Discwasher brush before the 16.5 on really dirty records.

If you can still find them, a lint-free all cotton cloth works surprisingly well. The trick is to find one made in the USA. If it's imported, it doesn't have to be 100% cotton to be considered all cotton.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks JB. I have heard good things about the Orbitracs...


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