# Bills M1/M2: the prototypes (photos)...



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Most of wear and love Bills M1s and M2s. But where did they come from? What were the prototypes?

The US Army's khaki service dress ("chinos") were introduced to function as both summer service/garrison dress (class "C" uniforms) and summer field/combat uniforms. During the war, these were used extensively in the Pacific Theatre, primarily on the Phillipines. As combat dress, the chinos were (1) the wrong colour and (2) not robust enough for combat. After the Phillipines fell to the Japanese forces, the chinos were largely supplanted by the green herringbone twill (HBT) one- and two-piece suits as combat and behind-the-lines dress (the HBTs were originally intended as tropical work clothing). For the rest of the war the chinos were still seen on senior officers and general officers, since these folks were rarely called upon for "heavy lifting" in the field and thus durability was not a problem.

To give an idea of what these chinos looked like "on the man", I have posted below a number of old photos from WW2 of various US Army personnel. The photos are in rough chronological order. As a student of military uniforms, I can attest that interpreting old photos (and drawings) can be tricky but is always fun; below I try to point out the chinos wherever possible, although the early version HBT pants do look similar at times in black & white photos. If anyone knows better, please post. As noted above, later in the war chinos were usually found on senior officers and so the photos below are biased towards officers. Also, variations in details will be noted and this can be attributed to several different manufacturers churning out uniforms for war requirements: military uniforms are rarely uniform in wartime.

The best photo on this topic I am unable to post for technical reasons: it shows two Army privates on base in the US before being sent into theatre. One is tall and skinny with large shoulders, the other shorter with larger hips. The pants are clearly the same, but fit is quite different. Both pants are tight around the waist and worn high on the waist, but the pants on the skinny fellow flare out around the hems, while the pants on the other fellow look just like the way we expect Bills to wear, i.e. straight legs. What this photo also shows clearly -- and I don't know if this was typical of all issue chinos -- that the front belt loop on the left side is located very close to the zipper, maybe 2" (max.) away, while the loop on the right side is equivalent to modern Bills (3" or more). This lopsided positioning seems to be so that the belt end is secured as the belts issued were "just long enough" (with typical military thriftiness) and did not have long enough ends to fit in the normal loops.

Anyway, enough useless trivia.
Hope everyone enjoys this one!
DD


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

These photos are from 1942. The first a bunch of senior officers (looks like Doug in the middle).



These photos are of soldiers waiting for a train in the US in the chinos. Makes me sad that most of these old stations were torn down. Note how high the pants were worn.







In another thread, some of us discussed how Bills can sometimes look like riding pants, which seems common on some wearers. Here's an interesting comparison of (1) the 1942 train station photo from above, (2) familyman in M1s, and (3) Allen's younger brother in M1s.


----------



## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

*"Other Military khaki"*

Intrepid will know exactly what I am discussing here.

My Dad was a career officer in the Air Force. They wore (in the 60's and 70's) #2 different uniforms. ("winter" and "summer") I know they have changed quite a bit over the years, but back then the "summer" uniform was khaki colored. ie.....heavy chino trousers and a short sleeved khaki colored shirt.......(not tradly! but "studly" to be sure........)

Boy did I miss out on an opportunity..........I can vividly remember my Mom had an old tea chest with about 15-20 pairs of these trousers (waist about 36 which I could wear now) and one day asked me if I wanted them......(Dad had retired by then) I declined since they were hemmed without cuffs....................Heck, they probably had about 4" of material up on the inside and there is a good chance I could have had them cuffed......(my Dad and I are the same height,,,,,,,well we were,,,,,,he has shrunk........)

I remember them being very heavy.......guessing 9-10 oz?? Chime in Intrepid!! Always sent to the base cleaners and heavily starched......probably cost a whopping 50 cents back then.........

Oh well........

Take care guys, 
Joe


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Couple more photos, these are from 1944. First another photo of Doug again, but look closely at the officers in the background: pants pulled very high, sometimes pleats, sometimes not. (The issue chinos did NOT have pleats, it should be noted. Also, McArthur was usually wearing civilian or personally tailored garments, a characteristic for which he was well known and at his rank could get away with.)

In particular note the aging officer at the extreme right in the photo: note the odd placement of the front left belt loop as I discussed in the intro to this thread. He is undoubtedly wearing general issue chinos.



The second photo is of Joe DiMaggio and Harold "Pee Wee" Reese with a USN admiral (left) and Army Air Force general (right), at an Army-Navy baseball game in 1944.


----------



## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

Very interesting, Dr. D. Thanks for your effort and insight!


----------



## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

*chinos*

Like morgan I too wish I had a pair of my dads Air Force khaki trousers-(hell Joe I'd like to be down to a 34 which they probably were)there might have been one lone surviving pair in the 60s-as he had done 4 year hitch starting early 50s. I can attest to the quality and weight of fabric- one of the shirts survived for my mom to paint/garden in into the 70s.

max


----------



## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

Thanks DD. You always provide such interesting visuals. The pictures are just so deep in imagery even beyond the points you're trying to make. The pants are so wrinkled in most cases that it's clear that they're been worn for days and probably slept it. The guy on the right in the third picture who's wearing a jacket with an open collar and no tie. The skinny smoking fellow in the second picture just has a great look about his body language. I'd also love to find a source for a leather bag like the one he has at his feet, it's a style you don't see anymore but that I've always loved. In fact, the variety of luggage shown is pretty cool.


----------



## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Regarding the photo depicting pleated pants on the officers. My grandfather served in the Phillipines. They would often have custom tailored uniforms and pants fitted by local women. For very little cost, a uniform could be completely re-made.


----------



## jasonpraxis (Mar 29, 2005)

Great photographs, DD, thanks.

There's an interesting variety of hats (and a surprising number of bare heads) among the civilian men. The gentleman on the extreme left of the second photo looks very sharp.

Familyman: skinny smoking fellow's bag reminds me of this model https://tinyurl.com/pwxra from Duluth Trading Co. Looks like just the thing for a weekend trip.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Joe Morgan is right on target! His Father and I had those great 9 oz. khakis. On Guam, we got to cut the sleeves off of the shirts, but they look just like the great WWII pics.

Also, when you look at the pics of many of the returning WWII vets on campus, they had the same trousers with an OCBD, and maybe a tweed jacket.I think that Bill Thomas used these as a model for his line.

These guys really were the "greatest generation". They gave a lot for the country, then came back and hit the books with a vengance. Many were married at the time, and lived in pretty meager circumstances to take advantage of the GI Bill.

Also Joe, I'll bet your Fathers trunk had those great summer woolens, called something like "silver tans". If you ever see a late night re run of Jimmy Stewart in "Strategic Air Command", you see sharp these looked.(or seemed to at the time).


----------



## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

Intrepid said:


> Joe Morgan is right on target! His Father and I had those great 9 oz. khakis. On Guam, we got to cut the sleeves off of the shirts, but they look just like the great WWII pics.
> 
> Also, when you look at the pics of many of the returning WWII vets on campus, they had the same trousers with an OCBD, and maybe a tweed jacket.I think that Bill Thomas used these as a model for his line.
> 
> ...


I believe the woolen uniform was "summer tan". They were tropical weight. They were worn, in various service designs by Army, Navy, and Air Force personnel. They stayed in existence into the 60's and 70's. Even after the Army switched from brown to green, summer tans were still worn. U.S. Navy officers wore them into the 1970's.

Not exactly sure about the USAF.


----------



## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

Intrepid said:


> Joe Morgan is right on target! His Father and I had those great 9 oz. khakis. On Guam, we got to cut the sleeves off of the shirts, but they look just like the great WWII pics.
> 
> Also, when you look at the pics of many of the returning WWII vets on campus, they had the same trousers with an OCBD, and maybe a tweed jacket.I think that Bill Thomas used these as a model for his line.
> 
> ...


Great to hear from you Intrepid!
Actually, I don't remember the summer woolens, and will have to look for them on the movies.

I only remember the above referenced summer uniform, and the winter. (ie the navy wool trousers and light blue cotton shirt with the solid navy tie I think.) I am also thinking, the summer uniforms did not have a hat, but the winter of course had the navy "envelope" shaped hat with the tiny silver trim. I know it had an "official name" but it slips my mind. (do remember my Dad's smelled of Top Brass or Brylcream...........why I was smelling his hat I can't explain.........you know kids....(I guess..........)

See ya, 
Joe


----------



## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

jmorgan32 said:


> I am also thinking, the summer uniforms did not have a hat, but the winter of course had the navy "envelope" shaped hat with the tiny silver trim. I know it had an "official name" but it slips my mind.


I believe they were called "garrison caps."


----------



## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Mac wore pleated khakis. You can almost see it in the very first pic above from GettyImages. You can see it here pretty clearly.


----------



## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

KentW said:


> I believe they were called "garrison caps."


I think that is right! (of course that is Army and my Dad was AF, but same style....)

Thanks Kent, 
Joe


----------



## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Great photos and history. I love the Bill's though I have to admit since I've dropped some weight (30 pounds), I have to be careful not to get swallowed up on the robust fabric. Even with the M2 cut, I sometimes feel I can fit another person in there. 

But fine heavy-duty standards, to be sure.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

*Unifrom Trivia*

I realize that it would be easy to underestimate the interest of most of you in uniform trivia. However, if you go up a couple of posts to the pic of Generals Krueger, MacArthur, and Marshall, I'm pretty sure that the hat that Gen Krueger has on was always referred to as an overseas hat.

The hats that Gens MacArthur, and Marshall have on are called garrison caps.

The definition came from WWI, I think. The "overseas cap" was so named because it would fit in a pack or pocket, when it was necessary to wear a helment. The cap with the bill was constructed so that it was not as portable, and could be worn only when "in garrison". In the USMC, both are simply referred to as "cover".

In my reading about Gen MacArthur, I think he had all of his uniforms tailor made, ergo the pleats, and much of his other stuff that didn't come from the quartermaster. A perfect example is the jacket that he has on with the peak lapels. Never another one like that in the Army.Patton was another one that took the basic officer uniforms as a suggestion, and a starting point for exercising his own creativity.


----------



## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

What's with the top button closure on McArthur's shirt? Some sort of tab closure? I've never seen that before.


----------



## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Intrepid said:


> The definition came from WWI, I think. The "overseas cap" was so named because it would fit in a pack or pocket, when it was necessary to wear a helment. The cap with the bill was constructed so that it was not as portable, and could be worn only when "in garrison". In the USMC, both are simply referred to as "cover".


My understanding is that both terms referred to the same hat style, "overseas" being the WWI-era term, and "garrison" being used in WWII, mostly by the Army. I could certainly be wrong, but doing a photo search on "garrison cap" and "overseas cap" using Google turns up the same hat.


----------



## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

KentW said:


> I believe they were called "garrison caps."


My dad was a dogfaced drill sargent (3 stripes 2 rockers whatever that is? and 'dogface' was his term btw) stationed in Texas (by Mineral Wells or some such place). He had a name for this type of hat which he did not use in polite society and absolutely never around women, it wasn't until I was at college that he told me the name - LOL. Had forgotten until now, thanks for stiring the old memory.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

KentW said:


> My understanding is that both terms referred to the same hat style, "overseas" being the WWI-era term, and "garrison" being used in WWII, mostly by the Army. I could certainly be wrong, but doing a photo search on "garrison cap" and "overseas cap" using Google turns up the same hat.


You may very well be right , Dr. If both are the same, the name for the one with the bill escapes me.

It's absolutely incredible what Google reveals.

Thanks for the correction.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

familyman said:


> What's with the top button closure on McArthur's shirt? Some sort of tab closure? I've never seen that before.


Who knows.General MacArthur had the need to have different uniforms from others.

Look at the difference between Gen MacArthur, and those on either side of him. He has: pleats, totally unregulation jacket, custom designed hat, and the tab that you mentioned.

The good General developed some unusual ways in his later years. His biggest problem wasn't his sartorial idiosyncrasies, but in forgetting that he was subordinate the the President.


----------



## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Intrepid said:


> If both are the same, the name for the one with the bill escapes me.


I've only heard those referred to as "service caps." In WWII, the bomber pilots used to remove the stiffening materials so they could wear their headsets over them, giving rise to the term "crush cap."

With stiffener:









Without stiffener:


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

KentW said:


> In WWII, the bomber pilots used to remove the stiffening materials so they could wear their headsets over them, giving rise to the term "crush cap."


Yes, the "fifty mission crush", the sign of the seasoned airman (or ambitious rookie). Without delving _too_ deep into my books, there were two types of headwear for the US Army in WW2: (1) the M1938 visored khaki service cap and (2) the overseas cap (also known as a garrison cap). The overseas cap dated from the mid-1930s and was later piped in branch-of-service colours, and later still the piping was removed. Officers had the same cap but with different piping. The visored cap was apparently common before the war, but was superseded by the overseas cap during the war.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

*B2 Leather Flying Hat*

You have excellent archives, Dr D, or a good memory. Since we have drifted a bit, there is one other flying hat that was called the B2. Bill in front, fleece lined, with ear flaps that turned up when not in use.

Still have one, but can't post a pic. You probably remember it.


----------



## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

Intrepid said:


> Who knows.General MacArthur had the need to have different uniforms from others.


Thanks, I just thought it was very interesting looking and wondered if it had any historical context. It might be an interesting feature to try and add to a Jantzen shirt. I may re-post the picture in the main forum to see if anybody over there has any insight into it if you don't mind.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Intrepid said:


> I realize that it would be easy to underestimate the interest of most of you in uniform trivia. However, if you go up a couple of posts to the pic of Generals Krueger, MacArthur, and Marshall, I'm pretty sure that the hat that Gen Krueger has on was always referred to as an overseas hat.
> 
> The hats that Gens MacArthur, and Marshall have on are called garrison caps.
> 
> ...


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

No doubt the term "garrison cap" has changed over time, and as with all military terms it's use was flexible. For keeners, one of the best reference guides to USAAF flight uniforms and gear is the following book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0...ref=sr_1_1/002-6679820-1711208?_encoding=UTF8
Can't go wrong adding that to your library. Lots and lots of photos. There is another superb book on the RAF and Luftwaffe, but the name escapes me (and I don't have the energy to enter the basement and look for it...maybe tomorrow...).

In the Air Cadets our sidecaps were officially referred to as "wedges", which I suspect might be a British term.


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

More photos...these are all from 1945.



Air force personnel wearing chinos.





Admiral Chester Nimitz at left.



The last stages of the war. Accepting the surrender of a Japanese officer, signing the offical surrender, and a US soldier on Japanese soil.


----------



## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

Some great photos on this thread. I never realized how high the WWII chinos were worn. I am surprised that some of the officers were allowed to deviate from the flat front and wear the plain front. Kind of defeats the purpose of the word "uniform". I guess if you are General McArthur, you can wear whatever you want.


----------



## Smudger (Jun 11, 2005)

*militaria*

Gentlemen,

I went into the U.S.Army in 1979 after graduating from medical school. The garrison cap or overseas cap was referred to as the "c***t cap and the brimmed round cap was called the saucer cap. The khaki's were a wonderful uniform which went by the wayside when women came into the army in larger numbers as the higher ups did not want to spend money on designing and fielding a khaki uniform for women. The khaki's in the late 1970's were permanent pressed and one could purchase lighter weight khakis in a polyster blend also. During WW2, soldiers could purchase khakis with the pleats as seen on the photos of McArthur; they were not just tailor made. My father has a photo wearing some that he purchased. The Army is always trying to find ways of saving money; which usually means "let's come up with an idea of making the uniform uglier and cheaper!!" three stripes up and two rockers down is a Sgt. First Class-SFC.

Bill


----------



## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

This is a great thread, can't believe I missed it back in June.

Anyhow, I have several original WWII pairs of khakis, some are dead-stock mint condition with cutter tags still on them. I might post pics soon if I can find time.


----------



## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

If the general wants pleats, the general gets pleats!


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

You want fat cuffs on chinos? Look no further...

https://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=020930o9999g005.jpg


----------



## AAF-8AF (Feb 24, 2009)

Very cool thread, and right in tune with my own WWII interests. And I see that the vintage crush cap photo was lifted from my web site without credit. But who's counting? Entire pages have been lifted from my site and posted all over as if they were someone else's hard work. Sheesh


----------



## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

This thread makes me newly appreciate the similarity of Bills M1's to the stuff worn in WWII. Both are huge with plenty of extra sagging material hanging off the butt and thigh. I guess for mobility and breathability.

I also notice that for the guys in these pics, a full break was the common length. (The "no break" idea must have come later during the ivy league phase.)


----------



## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

I found some pics that might make it worthwhile to revive this grand old thread.
Caption: US Army officer (1st Lieutenant) in informal post uniform.








Caption: US Army enlisted man in summer version of both the service and field uniform.








Caption: US Army enlisted man in field uniform w. rifle slung over his shoulder.


----------



## AAF-8AF (Feb 24, 2009)

AldenPyle said:


> I found some pics that might make it worthwhile to revive this grand old thread.


Great photos! I love the unwashed sheen on the cotton khaki shirt in the center photo. And nice "pink" shirt in the top photo.
.
.


----------



## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Why ain't them Army guys wearing cuffs? Seriously I'm printing these pictures out and the next person who busts my chops because I prefer cuffless khakis can salute the original version.


----------



## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

DoCD, those are great photos. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## SartoNYC (Feb 22, 2005)

*Thank you.*

Terrific thread.


----------



## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I'm sorry to revive such a terribly ancient thread but I love these photos so much I can't help it.

Question:

Bills M1s seem quite similar to the Army originals -- at least to what the officers are wearing in the majority of the pics. One of the similarities is a mild tapering that still leaves a rather wide leg opening. 

Does anyone here wear M1s with smaller looking shoes like pennies? Or would that be crazy?


----------



## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

I wear cuffed bills w/ penny loafers a lot. It doesn't "overwhelm" the shoes, IMO.


----------



## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Joe Beamish said:


> I'm sorry to revive such a terribly ancient thread but I love these photos so much I can't help it.
> 
> Question:
> 
> ...


I does! I think it's a great look with cuffed highwater (no break) Bills and sockless pennies. I was wearing highwater Bills M1s (10.2 oz) chinos, unlined vintage Bostonian pennies, and a shetland sweater last night for lounging around the house.


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Wonderful thread--thanks, DD!


----------



## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

There should be a come back on the high waist. Looks very neat and polished.


----------

