# What's with this "Buy American" argument?



## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

I come across various encouragements to buy US-made goods at regular intervals on the various message boards. As far as my experience goes, the last other significant protectionist effort in an industrialised country was the "Buy British" campaign in the late sixties/early seventies. It didn't seem to help the UK economy much.










I'm not really interested in the various macro-economical considerations concerning free trade vs. protectionism, but the mindset bothers me.

I can understand the argument vs. the authenticity of various specifically American goods - if I wanted a Cadillac, a Smith & Wesson or a pair of Levi's, I'd prefer them to be US-made, for authenticity's sake. But really.

I mean, is this site representative of the common mindset in the US?

If so, I'm considering boycotting US-made goods just to keep the trade balance a bit more even. How's that?


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

This mindset was more prevalent in the 70's and early 80's, especially as it pertained to automobiles. Some (many?) US corporations were at a competitive disadvantage with foreign companies, often when it came to quality, and were losing market share and profits. The economy was continuing it's shift from a manufacturing one to a service one. Unions were losing members due to layoffs. Baby boomers were coming of age and buying foreign products, which the previous generation, used to buying American, had a problem with. One of the ways to combat this was to exhort Americans to buy products made in the USA. The strategy was marginally successful, at best. But it did help force US corporations to care about quality instead of just quantity.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I wouldn't say it's _the_ common mindset, but it is _a_ common mindset.

The most common mindset is the consumerist that wants to buy as much as possible as cheap as possible. Occasionally they get surprised when they find out that stuff was made with lead paint by imprisoned child workers.

However the buy-American mindset is big enough to have several websites dedicated to it. Two of the top 6 Presidential candidates (one from each party) are putting thier campaigns squarely in the protectionist economic sphere.

What bothers me is what I saw last week: A relative was vehemently agreeing with a John Edwards speech about how corporate greed, deindustrialization, and outsourcing were killing the middle class. The day before they were proud about the small appliance (and price) they had bought. It was from China. You can't have it both ways.

I will admit that when I am buying something I don't particularly care about (like a small appliance) I will add the place of manufacture to my comparison of price and features. I typically buy the one farthest from China. USA is preferred, then Anglosphere, then Europe, then the rest of Asia.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Fair points, but I don't think concerns about labour conditions in China are behind these campaigns. 

So, if two out of six presidential candidates are placing themselves in the "protectionist" camp, I'd have to conclude that it's not the common, but a common mindset, as you say.

I have difficulties with John Edwards' "middle class" argument. The blue-collar working class, (well, all right, what's left of it) would surely be far greater sufferers from deindustrialisation.

And I have to admit that a fair part of my belongings have American labels on them, but I suspect very few of them are actually US-made, except a few items of iconic Americana, like Zippo lighters, baseball caps and the like, where "authenticity" is an aspect.

So a boycott on my part wouldn't be a huge threat to the US economy, to put it mildly.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> What bothers me is what I saw last week: A relative was vehemently agreeing with a John Edwards speech about how corporate greed, deindustrialization, and outsourcing were killing the middle class. The day before they were proud about the small appliance (and price) they had bought. It was from China. You can't have it both ways.


But you see, this is exactly what people want. Do not forget the vast bulk of the US (and world) population have the attention span of a puppy full of caffeine and hence each aspect of their lives happens in a vacuum in their minds.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

From one recent Edwards speech: "The corporate greed that is destroying the middle class in this country is stealing your children's future. It is stealing the future of Democrats' children, independents' children, Republicans' children. I'm telling you this is a message and a cause that we can unite America around, we can unite America next fall."





 John Edward's concession speech after Iowa. It gets 'good' at about 2:20

Later he talks for about 30 seconds to a minute about his family working in the (textile) mills in South Carolina. No one's brought up that while he was in the Senate he voted against nearly every bill that would have protected the textile industry.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Lucky Strike said:


> So a boycott on my part wouldn't be a huge threat to the US economy, to put it mildly.


People who thrift their clothes rarely have a profound impact on the economy, anyway. :biggrin2:


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

AlanC said:


> People who thrift their clothes rarely have a profound impact on the economy, anyway. :biggrin2:


Yep, recycling and sustainable development, that's my game, haha.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> But you see, this is exactly what people want. Do not forget the vast bulk of the US (and world) population have the attention span of a puppy full of caffeine and hence each aspect of their lives happens in a vacuum in their minds.


LOL...


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## jkreusc (Aug 14, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> What bothers me is what I saw last week: A relative was vehemently agreeing with a John Edwards speech about how corporate greed, deindustrialization, and outsourcing were killing the middle class. The day before they were proud about the small appliance (and price) they had bought. It was from China. You can't have it both ways.


You can absolutely have it both ways. Under the current system, of course I, as a consumer, want to maximize my value - just as the firm wants to maximize its shareholder's equity. So I buy the best products I can at the lowest price I can.

That is mutually exclusive with my belief that companies should be just as patriotic and caring toward the citizens of thier own country than they are toward thier shareholders - and that if they won't do it that there should be some regulation that forces them into it.

I suspect that on a forum where there is advocacy for spending more on a single piece of clothing than most Americans spend on all of thier clothing that my opinions won't carry much support.

My argument is simply that your annoyance is not the paradox that you make it out to be.


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## mikeber (May 5, 2004)

*So what?*



crazyquik said:


> From one recent Edwards speech: "The corporate greed that is destroying the middle class in this country is stealing your children's future. It is stealing the future of Democrats' children, independents' children, Republicans' children. I'm telling you this is a message and a cause that we can unite America around, we can unite America next fall."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Each time someone raises an important issue, political opponents immediately respond by pointing at his voting record, aiming to discredit and portray him as a hypocrite. This thread is not about John Edwards the candidate, but about a serious issue which bothers millions of Americans. By portraying Edwards as a hypocrite, these opponents suggest that the issue itself has no merit since it is being promoted by an unworthy candidate. But even if Edwards will not be elected, this issue deserves a deeper debate.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

www.ragweedforge.com Please, if you decide to boycott US made goods let me know. I'll start buying KABARS.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

mikeber said:


> By portraying Edwards as a hypocrite, these opponents suggest that the issue itself has no merit since it is being promoted by an unworthy candidate. But even if Edwards will not be elected, this issue deserves a deeper debate.


If it has so much merit, then why wasn't Edwards trying to stop it in the late 90s when textile and furniture outsourcing was _gutting_ the state he was elected to represent? North Carolina lost 170,000 jobs in apparel and textiles from 1997 to 2002. Senator Edwards was too busy giving fast track authority to the President, and voting to normalize trade with Vietnam and China to notice. Vietnam is where textile and apparel makers go when the Chinese are charging too much.

Full disclosure - I'm from NC, I didn't like Edwards then, I don't like him now, but I do think he has a good chance at becoming President and I don't consider him an unworthy candidate.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

I never cared about "Buy American"... until China got involved in the manufacturing game.

Germany, Britain, Japan, and other First World countries are our *trading partners*. Some years they sell us more than we sell them, or vice versa, but in the post-World-War-II world, nobody seemed to suffer too much from unrestrained trade. And while many of us would find a Japanese autoworker's life a little confining, it isn't inhumane by any stretch of the imagination.

China, by contrast, is our *trading enemy*. They artificially pegged their currency to ensure they could disembowel the American (and European) manufacturing base. They are ruining their environment, and by extension, ours, in a manner that no amount of Hummer H2s could ever hope to match. And to make this happen, they essentially frog-marched two hundred million people out of the countryside and into industrial slums that would have shocked Upton Sinclair. They are waging war on their own citizens and the casualties are monstrous.

I won't buy a Chinese product if there is any alternative, and sometimes if there is no alternative I will reconsider my decision to purchase an item of that type. I've also found that my life functions better without Chinese throwaway products.

Worst of all, I hate what Chinese products have done to the men of my generation. We have become a nation of people selling each other real estate and investments. Nobody can point to anything and state that they *made* it. We talk about "insurance products" and "investment products" as if they represented something. It's pathetic.

The one saving grace about the fall of the American dollar is that eventually the Chinese will have to remove their currency peg, at which point the true value of the yuan will triple or quadruple the cost of Chinese goods. It would be worth paying a thousand dollars for an H&H shirt if the man on the street were once again wearing an American-made suit.


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## samblau (Apr 2, 2005)

In base economic terms an efficient market is one where goods are produced at the lowest price and sold for maximum profit. All things being equal this principle would old true. Artificial concerns have thrown this principle out of whack. While America has many natural resources, a temperate climate, a proven history of manufacturing and a wide consumer base it also has minimum wage laws, environmental laws and taxes the heck out of certain commodities in addition to other regulations, some good and some bad. China can produce garments and other products at lower costs by subscribing to lower standards i.e. lead in toys. If China could produce fine woolens, linens etc. I would have no problem buying a Chinese suit. That said fabric from the UK and Italy has always been favored because of its quality. On the other hand silks and cashmeres are probobly better off being produced in areas in and around China because that is where they are from. The same holds true for things like Alpaca from South America and cottons from Egypt and Peru. The products are recognized as being superior.

I do not buy American simply for the sake of protecting American interests. I take pride in buying a HF or Oxxford suit because of the quality of the item. Cadillac and certain other US brands have lost that edge.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

samblau said:


> Cadillac and certain other US brands have lost that edge.


The current CTS and STS are the equal of any car in the world at the same money. The DTS is a throwback, but that's the way the customers like it


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

mikeber said:


> By portraying Edwards as a hypocrite, these opponents suggest that the issue itself has no merit since it is being promoted by an unworthy candidate.





crazyquik said:


> If it has so much merit, then why wasn't Edwards trying to stop it in the late 90s when textile and furniture outsourcing was _gutting_ the state he was elected to represent?


Sometimes 1+1=2. Perhaps it does have merit ... and Mr. Edwards is a hypocrite ... at least in regard to the outsourcing of textiles & furniture ... _if _indeed he did nothing to stop said outsourcing.

Other than food and thought (lets include ideas and intellectual property) ... I sometimes wonder if America produces much of anything anymore.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

RSS said:


> Other than food and thought (lets include ideas and intellectual property) ... I sometimes wonder if America produces much of anything anymore.


Part of our manufacturing that was left is still the best in the world.

Caterpillar, John Deere, Boeing, military weapons, etc. Rising demand for thier goods and a weak dollar is helping them as well.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

samblau said:


> In base economic terms an efficient market is one where goods are produced at the lowest price and sold for maximum profit.


That is not the definition of the basic economic term "efficient market". It has more to do with the market having already full knowledge of all variables and having those priced in. Also, it has more to do with the prices of financial vehicles vs. actual products.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

FlatSix said:


> China, by contrast, is our *trading enemy*. They artificially pegged their currency to ensure they could disembowel the American (and European) manufacturing base. They are ruining their environment, and by extension, ours, in a manner that no amount of Hummer H2s could ever hope to match. And to make this happen, they essentially frog-marched two hundred million people out of the countryside and into industrial slums that would have shocked Upton Sinclair. They are waging war on their own citizens and the casualties are monstrous.


Many would argue that this is much the same development, caused by much the same goals and tactics, that was seen in Western Europe and the US in the late 19th century.

Monetary trickery, flip-flopping between protectionism and free trade, pollution, a ruined countryside, horrible labour conditions...We taught them almost all they know about this. The only difference is that the Chinese will have some difficulties in organising a Socialist revolution.



FlatSix said:


> Worst of all, I hate what Chinese products have done to the men of my generation. We have become a nation of people selling each other real estate and investments. Nobody can point to anything and state that they *made* it. We talk about "insurance products" and "investment products" as if they represented something.


They do represent something. That's the idea.


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## samblau (Apr 2, 2005)

FlatSix said:


> The current CTS and STS are the equal of any car in the world at the same money. The DTS is a throwback, but that's the way the customers like it


Living in NYC I don't drive much...the last time I drove was my dads Cadillac mini-SUV, CRX or something...I didn't think it was too great...my old Explorer for '96 drove better IMO...of course the otehr models might be better, I never thought of Cadillac is an SUV brand but I guess market share is market share.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Lucky Strike said:


> ...I'm considering boycotting US-made goods...


Please do.

Thank you for the URL.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Orsini said:


> Please do.
> 
> Thank you for the URL.


You're welcome.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

RSS said:


> Other than food and thought (lets include ideas and intellectual property) ... I sometimes wonder if America produces much of anything anymore.


There's the considerable intellectual and artistic product, which in the long run will turn out to far more valuable than union-made SUVs and garden implements, IMO.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Kav said:


> www.ragweedforge.com Please, if you decide to boycott US made goods let me know. I'll start buying KABARS.


I'll have to stop buying Kabars and start with French Laguioles or something, then. Hmm.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

crazyquik said:


> Part of our manufacturing that *was left* (emphasis added by RSS) is still the best in the world.
> 
> Caterpillar, John Deere, Boeing, military weapons, etc. Rising demand for thier goods and a weak dollar is helping them as well.


I'm a huge fan of Boeing products ... and when flying commercially, I prefer being aloft with Boeing over other makes of aircraft. But given that one branch of my family tree has produced aircraft engines for just about everything from DC-3s to a B-747s ... I prefer not to offend other manufacturers. :icon_smile_wink:

However, according to Chuck Agne, a director of supplier management for Boeing's Integrated Defense Systems (IDS) business, _"At Boeing, about 65-70% of the content for a given airplane is procured from outside sources."_ Of course that is true of many manufacturers -- look at automakers -- and he says nothing about whether or not those sources are off-shore ... still ... to quote Mr. Agne, _"We take big pieces and assemble them, and build an airplane."_ Mr. Agne continues, noting that in recent years, _"We're doing less in the detail and subassembly area, and more integration and assembly. We expect ... suppliers to pick up the slack."_

As for the weak dollar ... yes that helps those with strong currencies to buy goods from America ... but is the weak dollar in the average Americans' best interest given that most of what we buy comes from sources other than America? (Of course, another question might also be ... do Americans really need all they are buying ... after all, big screen TVs and all-new kitchen appliances are not a life and death matter ... well, not to most.)

But with more and more being outsourced (from manufacturing to customer service to white-collar) and Americans making less and less and less and less ... ultimately what are we all going to do for a living? Are we expected to get a jobs at WalMart making minimum wage? Heck, we (meaning Americans) won't even be able to afford all that cheap (but more expensive due to the weak dollar) cr*p WalMart is importing for us. And, no WalMart is not alone ... I just singled them out given their less than stellar reputation.

Today, I had lunch with four other architects ... they are all hurting for work. I am fortunate to have a client base that spends its seemingly endless supply of money quite independently of economic condition. As a result I have a backlog of work. I'm also positioned to retire ... thanks to years of investment in dirt-cheap real estate in the Deep South. But I'm not representative of America ... and I'm not average with it comes to my financial position.

I have done my best to help these four by referring projects which are not a good match for my particular specialty and talents. But what does everyone else do? H*ll, we can't all work for WalMart ... or can we?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Lucky Strike said:


> There's the considerable intellectual and artistic product,.


 This is why I mentioned intellectual property. But is this "industry" going to engage all of America -- or Europe -- in work for pay. Or do we expect the rest to work in minimum-wage service jobs?



Lucky Strike said:


> ...which in the long run will turn out to far more valuable than union-made SUVs and garden implements, IMO.


 Lets hope so ... after all I don't drive an SUV -- _union-made_ or otherwise. I have a preference for and own Mercedes sedans and Alfa Romeo convertibles. As for the garden implements ... I inherited most of them ... and after many years ... they are still good as new. I don't need new ones.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Just for clarification, do you have any corresponding grievances against the USA? I thought about Norway reading your post. Except for the issue of continued whaling and ritual slaughter such as the faeroese 'Grind' by some scandinavian countries, I have no issues. I drove a VOLVO for many years and played a ABBA tape to drown out a femme in my college dorm who played THE VILLAGE PEOPLE incessantly. I own several scandinavian knives and a granfors Bruk axe. I've read Isaak Dinesen and my favourite actor is Max Von Sydow. I am very fond of Grieg and reading Ibsen.I even suffer hte long drive to Santa Ynez to visit the kitsche town of Solvang for butter cookies with my mother twice a year. So whats with all this cyber viking berserker angst with us skraelings?


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

RSS said:


> This is why I mentioned intellectual property. But is this "industry" going to engage all of America -- or Europe -- in work for pay. Or do we expect the rest to work in minimum-wage service jobs?


Or better-paid ones. Or public sector. Or any sort of technical development, which the US industry has been very good at, historically. I just don't see much future for crude/heavy/ dirty/unhealthy industry in the US. That might be turned around to a good thing, if the US workforce can be developed further to handle it.



RSS said:


> Lets hope so ... after all I don't drive an SUV -- _union-made_ or otherwise. I have a preference for and own Mercedes sedans and Alfa Romeo convertibles. As for the garden implements ... I inherited most of them ... and after many years ... they are still good as new. I don't need new ones.


Good for you. Yes, I hope so.

You might argue the case that the US is going the way of Western Europe; less heavy or unsophisticated industry, and bigger service and public sectors. It's the emerging industrial countries' turn to do the dirty work. I don't really have an opinion on whether this development is a good or a bad thing, but I think it's inescapable.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

Lucky Strike said:


> There's the considerable intellectual and artistic product, which in the long run will turn out to far more valuable than union-made SUVs and garden implements, IMO.


It's pretty to think so, but in a world where "intellectual and artistic product" is immediately copied in China anyway, it's unlikely to be the case.

It's also, I think, a bit optimistic to think that we can "climb the product ladder" and leave China et al behind. Consider, if you will, how Accenture et al gleefully used cheap Indian labor with the assumption that the "executive know-how" could never be reproduced... only to have Wipro and Tata whip their asses by using Indian management as well as Indian labor.

Last but not least is the disturbing idea that we may have to fight these fellows some time in the near future, and pretty much every substantial war of the past 150 years has been decided by industrial production.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Kav said:


> Just for clarification, do you have any corresponding grievances against the USA? I thought about Norway reading your post. Except for the issue of continued whaling and ritual slaughter such as the faeroese 'Grind' by some scandinavian countries, I have no issues. I drove a VOLVO for many years and played a ABBA tape to drown out a femme in my college dorm who played THE VILLAGE PEOPLE incessantly. I own several scandinavian knives and a granfors Bruk axe. I've read Isaak Dinesen and my favourite actor is Max Von Sydow. I am very fond of Grieg and reading Ibsen.I even suffer hte long drive to Santa Ynez to visit the kitsche town of Solvang for butter cookies with my mother twice a year. So whats with all this cyber viking berserker angst with us skraelings?


No grievances at all. In everyday discussions here, I usually end up defending the US and its culture - or rather, I'm the one maintaining that there actually is a culture. US foreign policy is often seen as indefensible here, but I do try, occasionally.

This may of course also be because I'm a habitual contrarian.

Now, my issue with the "Buy American" sloganeering is that I just thought this was a stage of economic thinking that the US was well past, and luckily so. To steal a phrase: "Buy American" is just an incredibly shallow no-brain patriotic slogan that the labor movement cooked up and sold on bumper stickers (no doubt printed in china). It strikes me as utterly emotional and irrational, unhealthy and backward-looking.

(A side-note: Out of the names you mention above, only Grieg and Ibsen are Norwegian. And possibly Solvang.)


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

KAV ... don't you think the name Lucky Strike is about as American as one can get ... be one's location Norway or otherwise. Why I can't even say Lucky Strike without the bold All-American graphic coming to mind. It reeks American!


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Dang, I was hoping noone would spot that...in truth, I've actually mostly switched to a milder brand.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

RSS said:


> But with more and more being outsourced (from manufacturing to customer service to white-collar) and Americans making less and less and less and less ... ultimately what are we all going to do for a living? Are we expected to get a jobs at WalMart making minimum wage?


I have exactly the opposite experience. Not only does my personal income keep going up and up, I keep having to pay more and more to unskilled people to perform even simple tasks, such as house keeping, dishwashers, nurse aides, etc. My organization still has a constant level of vacancy causing my various department managers to occasionally use staffing agencies to fill shifts, from laundry to nursing. I now need to pay several thousand dollars in the form of a sign on bonus to compete in the hiring of RNs. Four grand sign on to compete in the market for hiring nurse aides.

Equally, my wife has more work she can handle. She has problems finding skilled engineers and there is a very competitive market for hiring these people. In some cities in the southwest, civil engineers are getting hiring bonuses. She never thought she would see that day.

I think, as usual, the US economy is being extremely dynamic. As in any dynamic system, change is constant. Those not ready for change, not ready to accept change, not ready to adapt to it, not ready to change location if need be, are going to suffer. This is probably the biggest part of the population.

Those ready for it will thrive.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

FlatSix said:


> It's pretty to think so, but in a world where "intellectual and artistic product" is immediately copied in China anyway, it's unlikely to be the case.
> 
> It's also, I think, a bit optimistic to think that we can "climb the product ladder" and leave China et al behind.


If so, I'm afraid that the only option I see for the US workforce is to stop whining, and work better and harder, possibly for less. "Buying American" or other forms of consumer protectionism will be just as effective as any consumer boycott of US-made goods.



Wayfarer said:


> I think, as usual, the US economy is being extremely dynamic. As in any dynamic system, change is constant. Those not ready for change, not ready to accept change, not ready to adapt to it, not ready to change location if need be, are going to suffer. This is probably the biggest part of the population.
> 
> Those ready for it will thrive.


Wayfarer put it better than me.

The argument; "You should buy this product because it's good, and the best value for money" will trump "You should buy this product because it's American-made". Where stuff is made, is irrelevant to most consumers in the global marketplace. Protectionism is a show of weakness.



FlatSix said:


> Last but not least is the disturbing idea that we may have to fight these fellows some time in the near future, and pretty much every substantial war of the past 150 years has been decided by industrial production.


One of the initial ideas behind the European Union was in the initial stage to enmesh the French and German steel and coal resources sufficiently to make war between them impracticable. I'm not saying that the principle can be transferred autaomatically to China, but it has worked so far.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

You must listen to the reconquista ministry of information in Tijuana. Us 'lazy americanos' work longer hours with less vacations than our counterparts in Europe and we are still the most productive work force on earth. You may want to look at A minor detail somehow avoided by our world critics is who, and from where and often enough fleeing from what the american people are .


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Lucky Strike said:


> Dang, I was hoping noone would spot that...in truth, I've actually mostly switched to a milder brand.


My mother smoked them for ... let me do the math ... sixty-two years!

I still remember her last words (sadly to the ICU care giver) ... "I don't want any d*mn Jello ... where are my Luckies?


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Kav said:


> You must listen to the reconquista ministry of information in Tijuana. Us 'lazy americanos' work longer hours with less vacations than our counterparts in Europe and we are still the most productive work force on earth. You may want to look at A minor detail somehow avoided by our world critics is who, and from where and often enough fleeing from what the american people are .


Had a look at the link. Interesting Norwegian-American history.

Sorry, but I think I need this post explained to me.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

RSS said:


> My mother smoked them for ... let me do the math ... sixty-two years!
> 
> I still remember her last words (sadly to the ICU care giver) ... "I don't want any d*mn Jello ... where are my Luckies?


Heh, sounds like my maternal grandfather. Unfiltered Pall Mall King Sizes, though.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Kav said:


> I . . . played a ABBA tape to drown out a femme in my college dorm who played THE VILLAGE PEOPLE incessantly.


I was waiting to see what atrocity would be so bad that it would be preferable to listen to ABBA, but you've definitely identified one. It reminds me of my time in the dorm when the women in the room right down the stairwell from my girlfriend's (now wife's) room, where I stayed, were incessantly listening to the execrable "Me and Mrs. Jones". That's definitely something to make you want to take the knitting needles to your ear drums!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> I was waiting to see what atrocity would be so bad that it would be preferable to listen to ABBA, but you've definitely identified one. It reminds me of my time in the dorm when the women in the room right down the stairwell from my girlfriend's (now wife's) room, where I stayed, *were incessantly listening to the execrable "Me and Mrs. Jones". *That's definitely something to make you want to take the knitting needles to your ear drums!


I did not realize the Counting Crows were together back then. :icon_smile_big:


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Lucky Strike, I think you have a rather myopic view of America. I make a pan-scandinavian allusion and you fail to see my point. Cultures, Nation States, current political directions are all very fluid, never representative of everything and often overlook and unappreciative of the differences. You read about one group of people and are ready to boycott America. Whats next, making giant paper mache puppets and waving red banners in Oslo street protests outside our embassy?


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> Whats next, *making giant paper mache puppets *and waving red banners in Oslo street protests outside our embassy?


Well we are headed toward mardi gras. Do people still celebrate Fasching/Karneval?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Lucky Strike said:


> Had a look at the link. Interesting Norwegian-American history.
> 
> Sorry, but I think I need this post explained to me.


Lucky: Several of us in these fora are doing our best to maintain the American/Norwegian balance of payments, having purchased the "Aurlander Camp Mocs" you so fondly remembered from your childhood...not a convenient purchase but, nice shoes nonetheless! Does that thin, hard leather sole ever soften up and become flexible? (winks)


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

How quickly an unappreciative world fogets. Just yesterday I watched THE GUNS OF NAVARONE. I tell you, seeing that brave american David Niven and norwegian patriot Anthony Quinn blow up the german guns overlooking the Fiord brought a tear to my eye.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> How quickly an unappreciative world fogets. Just yesterday I watched THE GUNS OF NAVARONE. I tell you, seeing that brave american David Niven and norwegian patriot Anthony Quinn blow up the german guns overlooking the Fiord brought a tear to my eye.


Everybody old enough to remember know Anthony Quinn is Greek, Opa! I teach you to dance.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

jkreusc said:


> You can absolutely have it both ways. Under the current system, of course I, as a consumer, want to maximize my value - just as the firm wants to maximize its shareholder's equity. So I buy the best products I can at the lowest price I can.
> 
> That is mutually exclusive with my belief that companies should be just as patriotic and caring toward the citizens of thier own country than they are toward thier shareholders - and that if they won't do it that there should be some regulation that forces them into it.
> 
> ...


So, the government should permit consumers to pursue their self-interest, but not investors. Gotcha.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

mpcsb said:


> Everybody old enough to remember know Anthony Quinn is Greek, Opa! I teach you to dance.


The movie took place in Greece also. Peck, Niven and Quinn disguise themselves as Greek fisherman.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

For the benefit of readers ... I'm not one who believes that we must "Buy American" ... unless the American product is the best. Given that I use the services of two Savile Row tailors and buy my cars German and Italian ... I would hope other's do not see my argument in defense of this campaign. 

No ... we can't revert to isolationism. That may have worked centuries ago ... it certainly doesn't work today given the pace with which things happen ... instant communications for example ... and the speed of air travel. 

But can America afford to outsource manufacturing to the degree it has? I suppose it's possible that out-sourcing off-shore will ultimately work to our advantage one day -- perhaps it does now ... but I just don't see it -- assuming we have a world economy of willing and peaceful partners.

Is that what we have? Is that we are to assume we'll have?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I have a plate of, homemade of ;baklava, spanakopia, a can of olives and greek coffee sitting on my counter for lunch; One of the many advantages of attending a greek church. Once again, I make a tongue in cheek comment reference to illustrate the sometime sillyness of worldviews and it crashes like Daedelus and Icarus violating our immigration laws.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Kav said:


> I have a plate of, homemade of Baklava, spanakovia, a can of olives and greek coffee sitting on my counter for lunch. One of hte many advantages of atending a greek church. Once again, I make a tongue in cheek comment reference to illustrate the sometime sillyness of worldviews and it sails overhead like Daedelus and Icarus.


Sorry. I just thought you were thinking of the wrong movie.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> I have exactly the opposite experience. Not only does my personal income keep going up and up, I keep having to pay more and more to unskilled people to perform even simple tasks, such as house keeping, dishwashers, nurse aides, etc. My organization still has a constant level of vacancy causing my various department managers to occasionally use staffing agencies to fill shifts, from laundry to nursing. I now need to pay several thousand dollars in the form of a sign on bonus to compete in the hiring of RNs. Four grand sign on to compete in the market for hiring nurse aides.
> 
> Equally, my wife has more work she can handle. She has problems finding skilled engineers and there is a very competitive market for hiring these people. In some cities in the southwest, civil engineers are getting hiring bonuses. She never thought she would see that day.


I'm not surprised that your experience is what it is given that you are involved with health care ... which is not a very cyclical "industry." And frankly, the same might be said for my example about architecture ... but on the flip side. However, as for your wife's experience ... seems to me it does relates to the point you make in the paragraph quoted below. 



Wayfarer said:


> I think, as usual, the US economy is being extremely dynamic. As in any dynamic system, change is constant. Those not ready for change, not ready to accept change, not ready to adapt to it, not ready to change location if need be, are going to suffer. This is probably the biggest part of the population.
> 
> Those ready for it will thrive.


I think you are quite correct ... those who are most adaptable will not only survive but thrive. In fact, that sounds much like Darwin's theory as to the survival of the fittest. But as you, yourself, note, this is the minority of the population ... and the rest -- the majority -- will suffer.

This will always be true to a degree -- some will always excel. However it seems to me the current system strongly favors the few ... in that the current system is truly good only for the few who know how to work it ... even abuse it in some cases. But what about the rest ... what about the majority? 

Given my profession, I went for the client base that is most unaffected by economic conditions ... and while the rest of my peers are suffering ... I have more work than ever. Were the world to exist only for the benefit of RSS -- and the others among the most adaptable -- everything would be hunky-dorey. 

Is that why the world exists? Am I to accept that the rest -- the majority -- get what they deserve and must suffer the consequences ... just because they don't have the ability ... or the get-go ... or the shrewdness required to work the system? Is that which works best for the few really best for all? If so, why didn't we just stick with a feudal society ... or are we trying to revert to one? 

To those who know how to work the system to your advantage ... don't you ever feel that you are benefiting at the expense of others? Don't you feel you owe them anything? *Edit:* The first time I typed "Don't you feel you _*own*_ them ... perhaps that was correct.

*Are there really those who adhere to the mantra ...* ​
_*Blessed are We who are among the Few ... *_
_*as well as We who are working the system while scurrying our tails to join the Few. *_
_*To the others we say, "Let them eat cake. Oh, and have a nice day while your're at it."*_​


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

RSS said:


> .
> 
> _*Blessed are We who are among the Few ... *_
> _*as well as We who are working the system while scurrying our tails to join the Few. *_​
> _*To the others we say, "Let them eat cake. Oh, and have a nice day while* *your* *at it."*_​


you might want to edit again: you're

-nit picker


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

RSS said:


> I'm not surprised that your experience is what it is given that you are involved with health care ... which is not a very cyclical "industry." And frankly, the same might be said for my example about architecture ... but on the flip side. However, as for your wife's experience ... seems to me it does relates to the point you make in the paragraph quoted below.


Even within healthcare, there are cycles. Just ask any hospital that made a huge investment into something only then to have a payer source change and this huge investment becomes a liability vs. a revenue producing asset. It happens.

To civil engineering: if you live in say, Detroit, you are in a world of hurt. You do need the willingness to go to where the work is. If you do not, I find it hard to justify much concern for someone with a marketable skill set, just not where they are currently living. No one is assured of a life without change. Hell, I had to change countries to excel in my chosen field.



RSS said:


> I think you are quite correct ... those who are most adaptable will not only survive but thrive. In fact, that sounds much like Darwin's theory as to the survival of the fittest. But as you, yourself, note, this is the minority of the population ... and the rest -- the majority -- will suffer.


I am not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying we should somehow ensure that those who are unwilling to achieve should somehow still be paid the benefits as if they were willing to excel? That say, in an auto factory losing money, lagging in productivity and quality, the workers should be rewarded the same as an auto factory making high quality cars with high productivity? I am willing to listen, just please explain how a scenario like this makes sense. If this is not what you are suggesting, *what exactly are you suggesting?* Or are you just bemoaning the fact that for every Bill Gates, this is 100 million average people, that you have no real solution and are just maudlin over the human state?



RSS said:


> To those who know how to work the system to your advantage ... don't you ever feel that you are benefiting at the expense of others? Don't you feel you owe them anything? *Edit:* The first time I typed "Don't you feel you _*own*_ them ... perhaps that was correct.


First, mischaracterization of "the system" and "those that work it" and I am not even sure there is "a system" to speak of. Secondly, what would you suggest is owed? When I was valet parking the shiny new cars Detroit autoworkers drove to the bar I was working at, outside of a tip (which I earned and 1/2 of them stiff you!), did they give a damn about my very limited means? Did they help me study, survive 80 hour weeks when my very bones ached? Did they even notice my existance as they tossed me their keys and escorted their overly made up, lycra sporting ugly women into the bar? So what now do I owe those people exactly? Again, I am willing to listen, I just want it explained to me *exactly what I owe the people that pulled up in a nice shiny car to stiff the valet attendant, who can now buy and sell them.* What, and more importantly why, do I owe them? I pay more taxes than them, both aggregate and %, have a huge student loan (which they certainly do not pay for me), and cannot simply "turn off" work after an eight hour day. *What more exactly do I owe them than to bust my hump and pay through the nose in taxes?* *I am listening!*



RSS said:


> *Are there really those who adhere to the mantra ...*FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY
> TO EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR NEEDS.
> THE WELFARE QUEEN HAS MORE NEEDS THAN YOU SO THEREFORE HAS THE MORAL RIGHT TO THE FRUITS OF YOUR LABOUR OVER YOU!​


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Kav said:


> Lucky Strike, I think you have a rather myopic view of America. I make a pan-scandinavian allusion and you fail to see my point. Cultures, Nation States, current political directions are all very fluid, never representative of everything and often overlook and unappreciative of the differences. You read about one group of people and are ready to boycott America. Whats next, making giant paper mache puppets and waving red banners in Oslo street protests outside our embassy?


My knowledge about the US may very well be lacking, but I assure you that in European terms, I'm to be counted as a full-blown Amerophile, or whatever the correct term is. I think you may be confusing my anti-protectionism with anti-Americanism.

Funny this, the only embassy I've ever protested outside was the Chinese one, after the Tienanmen Square debacle. I even had the pleasure of participating in burning a red flag there.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

mpcsb said:


> Well we are headed toward mardi gras. Do people still celebrate Fasching/Karneval?


Mostly in Catholic countries.


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> Lucky: Several of us in these fora are doing our best to maintain the American/Norwegian balance of payments, having purchased the "Aurlander Camp Mocs" you so fondly remembered from your childhood...not a convenient purchase but, nice shoes nonetheless! Does that thin, hard leather sole ever soften up and become flexible? (winks)


Patience, patience...your grandchildren will walk on butter-soft, inherited soles...


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

RSS said:


> Is that why the world exists? Am I to accept that the rest -- the majority -- get what they deserve and must suffer the consequences ... just because they don't have the ability ... or the get-go ... or the shrewdness required to work the system? Is that which works best for the few really best for all? If so, why didn't we just stick with a feudal society ... or are we trying to revert to one?


Sir Peregrine Worsthorne once said (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) something along the lines that meritocracy is horribly unfair to the incompetent, while a feudal system at least affords an even spread of resourceful people.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

tabasco said:


> you might want to edit again: you're
> 
> -nit picker


Sometimes one is just too anxious to hit send before looking again for that last mistake ... such as using the possessive when he intends the contraction for subject and verb.

But ... Done deal! Thanks!


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

*CHILDREN:*
* YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE...*
* STOP REPORTING YOUR ARGUMENTS FROM THE INTERCHANGE TO THE MODERATORS.*​


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

RSS said:


> I think you are quite correct ... those who are most adaptable will not only survive but thrive. In fact, that sounds much like Darwin's theory as to the survival of the fittest. But as you, yourself, note, this is the minority of the population ... and the rest -- the majority -- will suffer.





Wayfarer said:


> I am not sure what you are getting at here.


Well ... I'm saying ... I think you are quite correct ... that those who are most adaptable will not only survive ... but thrive. I'm saying that I think this sounds much like Darwin's theory as to the survival of the fittest ... and it really does. And I'm pointing out that as you pointed out ... those who have the ability to do this are the minority of the population ... and that the rest will -- as you say -- suffer. That's all that I'm getting at.

That's all that I'm getting at in this paragraph. :icon_smile_wink:



Wayfarer said:


> *I am listening!*


Wayferer, you're an okay fellow ... but we're in different camps. You may say you're listening ... be we're not even talking about the same thing.

My post was not in the least about welfare ... or welfare queens ... or those who get "something for nothing." So no, your tax money -- whether you feel your share to be fair or not -- is not going to help the issue about which I speak.

I was using your posts as a springboard to write ... as you had posted in response to my post ... which may have been in response to yours ... but frankly I can't remember now and I don't really want to hit the back button.

As for having the answer ... of course I don't. Who does? The first person with an answer ... well, we don't have to think about that ... cause no one will ever have the answer.

*And one last thing ... I know you are being playful ... but really ... I'd prefer that you not quote my post if you are going to alter what I say. That's beyond my sense of propriety ... even when playing.*


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

RSS said:


> So no, your tax money -- whether you feel your share to be fair or not -- *is not going to help the issue about which I speak. *


Again I ask you, *what issue is it that you speak about?* I am listening. Also, I will not report you to the mods. *I fight my own battles*. I feel this is part of the nature of socialism and fascism, namely to have an authority fight your battles for you vs. wining or losing on your own merits. Intellectual welfare if you will.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

EDIT: And then you delete this after posting publicly a PM I sent you:



> Yeah ... guess I do bud! WAYFARER: YOU CHANGED MY WORDS WHEN QUOTING ME ... FIX YOUR POST.


A public reply to a PM where I asked you if you reported me. Geez, I had meant to put "fixed" under that so people would know I did it but now, really, screw ya.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> Again I ask you, *what issue is it that you speak about?* I am listening. Also, I will not report you to the mods. *I fight my own battles*. I feel this is part of the nature of socialism and fascism, namely to have an authority fight your battles for you vs. wining or losing on your own merits. Intellectual welfare if you will.
> 
> Just my 2 cents, YMMV.


Changing my quote hardly qualifies as intellectual. :icon_smile_wink: That was my only reason for reporting. Things went a bit further than I expected. Obviously anything goes in the interchange ... I'll remember that next time.

As for listening ... perhaps another time.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

RSS said:


> Changing my quote hardly qualifies as intellectual. :icon_smile_wink: That was my only reason for reporting. Things went a bit further than I expected. Obviously anything goes in the interchange ... I'll remember that next time.


Again, I was planning on putting the usual "Fixed" under it but a phone call came in and I hit "submit reply". If you had just PM'ed me without reporting me. Now though...well, I am sure you can guess how well force and coercion work on me. Actually, maybe you cannot, as you are one that attempted it. Like most free people, it simply does not, and knowing that, I will not attempt it on others. Only slaves and slave owners think it will work on others.

Cheers!


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Wayferer, you are most unethical. Do as you wish. At this point, I ask nothing of you ... as I expect nothing of you. I leave you to ... yourself.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

RSS said:


> Wayferer, you are most unethical.


But of course I am, to you. I will not bend to your will after you insult me. I will not comply to your wishes after you attempt to commit a little crystalnacht on me. I understand why this shocks you and it sickens me.

Edit: And unethical? What do you then call someone that posts a public reply to a PM? I know what I call it: RSS. Again, if you had just asked me, I would have fixed my omission. Men can come to terms. Men and rats never. And I am the unethical one? Incredible.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Glad to see you genteel folks have finally worked out your differences. Civility reigns again in Babylon.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Glad to see you genteel folks have finally worked out your differences. Civility reigns again in Babylon.


LOL. If I did not know better, I would say that was almost trolling


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> genteel folks?


Why Alex you are just too kind. Or ... or ... was that sarcasm? :icon_smile_wink:

In any event ... I'd say neither of us was ... genteel ... gentile maybe ... but not genteel.

Sometimes the incredible is reality.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> Geez, I had meant to put "fixed" under that so people would know I did it but now, really, screw ya.


Not to worry ... your libelous version of my post has ceased to be of any real concern. I simply feel it unethical to intentionally alter the words of another without indicating such has happened ... and then attribute the quote as if nothing has happened. Whether or not you were going to add "fixed" at some later time after a telephone call is moot.

As for my having pulled (without being asked, I might add) my public response (which you then later quoted ... however which was NOT in response to any question as to whether I reported you ... but rather to your suggestion that I must have some particular anatomy with which most males are equipped) to your PM, it was done because it was the gentlemanly thing to do.

Some people can be expected to recognize their misjudgements and take action to correct them ... whether asked to do so or not. Sadly, that can't be said for all.

This incident does, however, cause me to wonder at what point malice became something to which one might aspire?

Goodnight


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

RSS said:


> Not to worry ... your libelous version of my post has ceased to be of any real concern.


The best way to prove this is true is to stop yammering about it and demanding things, reporting things, and making scandalous accusations. Your prior actions bely the truth of this statement. It is of real concern to you and this is merely a childish defense mechanism akin to taking your ball and going home because the game did not go as you wished.



RSS said:


> Some people can be expected to recognize their misjudgements and take action to correct them ... whether asked to do so or not. Sadly, that can't be said for all.


Yes, I am still waiting for you to admit to your misjudgment. "I am sorry Wayfarer, I tried to have you strong armed vs. getting a reply from you first. I realize I was no gentleman, nor a good neighbor, and I realize attempting to have you coerced was wrong. I understand a man of your character would never submit and hope you will forgive me."



RSS said:


> This incident does, however, cause me to wonder at what point malice became something to which one might aspire?


I would say your malice became apparent when you reported me vs. dealing with me directly. The malice became quite demonstrable when you tried to use the local analogue of law enforcement against me vs. giving me the neighborly courtesy of getting a response from me. Have no worries though, such petty things are inconsequential to people of character.

Cheers


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

^ You edited my words! Oh nos! I demand you retract it! 

So why not get back to topic? What were your plaintive meanderings about? You felt something was owed people. What is owed to them and who should pay for what is owed and why should that particular group pay for it? Or did you wander off on this whole personal tangent as you were just talking out of your arse and really had nothing more to say?


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## mikeber (May 5, 2004)

RSS said:


> Sometimes 1+1=2. Perhaps it does have merit ... and Mr. Edwards is a hypocrite ... at least in regard to the outsourcing of textiles & furniture ... _if _indeed he did nothing to stop said outsourcing.
> 
> Other than food and thought (lets include ideas and intellectual property) ... I sometimes wonder if America produces much of anything anymore.


Unfortunately it does not. Many prise this trend as a step forward, giving companies a competitive edge. And I ask what will America be 20 -30 years down the road? A country of money movers? Moving money from one pocket to another was not and will not be a recipe for a balanced and healthy economy.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

mikeber said:


> Unfortunately it does not. Many prise this trend as a step forward, giving companies a competitive edge. And I ask what will America be 20 -30 years down the road? A country of money movers? Moving money from one pocket to another was not and will not be a recipe for a balanced and healthy economy.


Mikeber ... I actually agree with you ... that's much of my rant in this thread. If you read my other posts ... I think you might see that. You may even note in my post to which you reply ... I carefully use a "perhaps" and an "if."


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