# "Back waist straps" on trad trousers - what happened?



## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

.

Consider the 1955 ad below. It mentions a once-common "ivy" detail that has inexplicably disappeared from today's trad suit trousers: the back waist strap and buckle.

My husband has a 1930s Brooks Brothers suit with a back waist strap. I put it to you experts: When did trad clothiers do away with the strap...and why?



AldenPyle said:


>


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

That back strap was found on casual trousers in the 1950's. It was on every pair of polished cotton trousers that I had and on a few pair of odd wool trousers. I don't think I ever saw a suit with that detail although my experience is limited to So Calif.

The ad that you posted is interesting. I wonder in which city Irv Lewis Men's Shop was located. I did not start buying suits until I got out of the Army in 1956 but that is close enough to the 1955 ad for me to say that the prices seem rather low. I don't remember too much about prices back then, but I know that I bought some nice suits in the late 50s for under $100. Some were by Southwick and I don't recall the other makers; I might not have even known. 

Sorry that I can't be more help with your questions, Jim.


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> .
> 
> Consider the 1955 ad below. It mentions a once-common "ivy" detail that has inexplicably disappeared from today's trad suit trousers: the back waist strap and buckle.
> 
> My husband has a 1930s Brooks Brothers suit with a back waist strap. I put it to you experts: When did trad clothiers do away with the strap...and why?


Are the trousers cut for braces? the reason I ask is I've only seen back straps on trousers cut for braces; and I'd always considered Ivy League trousers to be cut for belts.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> That back strap was found on casual trousers in the 1950's. It was on every pair of polished cotton trousers that I had and on a few pair of odd wool trousers. I don't think I ever saw a suit with that detail although my experience is limited to So Calif.
> 
> The ad that you posted is interesting. I wonder in which city Irv Lewis Men's Shop was located. I did not start buying suits until I got out of the Army in 1956 but that is close enough to the 1955 ad for me to say that the prices seem rather low. I don't remember too much about prices back then, but I know that I bought some nice suits in the late 50s for under $100. Some were by Southwick and I don't recall the other makers; I might not have even known.
> 
> Sorry that I can't be more help with your questions, Jim.


Ithaca,NY


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## mack11211 (Oct 14, 2004)

The store seems to have been in Ithaca, NY, according to the interview with its ad man:

https://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14810989&BRD=1395&PAG=461&dept_id=216620&rfi=6

The back waist buckle has two things going against it.

One, it draws the pants close at only one point. Even side tabs do it at two points.

Two, to make it you need to buy the hardware, an additional expense.

Three, I think even then most men were accustomed to wearing belts, especially with casual or odd trousers.

The fashion for side tabs or rear tabs/buckles lasted into the early or mid 60s, I believe.


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

I had always heard that men got used to wearing belts while serving in the military during WWII, but this is later than that so perhaps that is wrong or it just took a while for the more traditional manufacturers to change their styles.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

Thanks for the info on the locatation of the shop.

I failed to mention in my prior post that none of the trousers with 'a belt in the back' (that is what we called it back then) that I owned or that I ever saw were cut for braces. They all had belt loops, people always wore belts with them, and while the belt in the back could have been used to tighten the fit, I never saw it done. I don't think it would have looked attractive.

Before that styling detail had run it's course, I remember seeing a few, but only a few thanfully, caps and jackets with belts in the back. Someone joked the next step was a belt with a belt in the back.

Mack suggested that we buried that fad in the early to mid 60's and that sounds right to me. As far as I know, that style has never made a comeback which I think is just dandy. 

Cheers, Jim.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

outrigger said:


> Are the trousers cut for braces? the reason I ask is I've only seen back straps on trousers cut for braces; and I'd always considered Ivy League trousers to be cut for belts.


The 1930s Brooks Brothers suit trousers have brace buttons _and_ belt loops.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

mack11211 said:


> The back waist buckle has two things going against it.
> 
> One, it draws the pants close at only one point. Even side tabs do it at two points.
> 
> Two, *to make it you need to buy the hardware*, an additional expense.


No, the hardware (the buckle) came with the trousers.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> Mack suggested that we buried that fad in the early to mid 60's ...


I'm not sure the word "fad" best describes it. After all, back buckles on trouser waists were first used in the 1800s. A 100 year-long style is hardly a passing fad.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> No, the hardware (the buckle) came with the trousers.


Never mind the quote above. My mistake. I now understand what *mack11211 *meant.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> I'm not sure the word "fad" best describes it. After all, back buckles on trouser waists were first used in the 1800s. A 100 year-long style is hardly a passing fad.


Perhaps 'fad' is not the most appropriate term, but it seemed like a fad to me because that feature was popular with college age people, in my area at least, during the mid to late 50's to the extent that it was even put on articles of clothing other than trousers. Also, because it was something I had not seen prior to the mid 50's.

Your husband's suit (nice suit btw) shows us that it was around in the 30's, but I wonder how popular it was at that time. I don't remember seeing it during the 30's or 40's although during the first part of that time period I did not pay much attention to such things.

I have read that cuffs on trousers were prohibited during the first half of the 40's due to The War. That might be the case for vests too and also for belt in the back on trousers.

One reason that I don't care for that feature is, as your second photo shows, that with back pockets, belt loops, and one can imagine a belt, that adding that rear belt makes the area look very busy, especially with a nice patterned cloth.

Another reason is that if that belt was actually tightened up for a better fit, it would only be done if the trousers needed some help from a tailor and would not look good at all.

One might say it is just a stylistic detail that does not need to be functional as is the case with many of the details of current men's tailored clothing and I could not debate that view except as I noted above, that it adds busyness where none is needed.

It would be interesting to know which current details of men's clothing will be around in 50 years only on vintage suits.

It is an interesting bit of tailoring history that you brought up that I had completely forgotten about.

Cheers, Jim.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

I well remember the back belt; my first pair of real "Ivy League" trousers, bought at Nieman Marcus in Dallas in the early '50s, were charcoal brown (a particularly lovely color), clearly cut for a belt, plus had the aforementioned back belt, which no one I knew ever used to adjust their trousers. It sits too low on the back to effectively adjust the waist plus, since these trousers were all flat-front, one certainly wouldn't want to add a pleat in the center of the back. I just assumed it was a vestigial fashion detail with no true function, rather like cuff buttons on a suit.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I remember them. I remember one day some of us sitting in my father's room as he used a razor blade to remove the back belts from a bunch of his pants. It was probably the very early 1960's.

At that time he still had some t-shirts and jackets from the Marines, and he had served in WWII, so he was definitely one to hold onto clothes.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

*Penn State Daily Collegian, September 1958*









Not to add insult to injury, but I guess that State College was not necessarily the most up to date in fashion, but this probably gives some idea.


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## Toad (Jun 10, 2005)

I remember the back belt always getting caught on chairs or scratching the leather upholstry


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

I like the back belt - anything to break up that w i d e expanse between the hips.


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## TDI GUY (Oct 26, 2008)

*Return of the back belt?*

Another interesting exchange in the Ivy-Style interview with Cambridge J.Press manager Denis Black (https://www.ivy-style.com/) was the mention of the possible return of the back-belted trouser. An intriguing development, particularly given that many (in this thread at least) were all too happy to see it disappear from the Ivy repertoire the first time 'round.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Side adjusters I see the use for, but the back belt on non-high back trousers seems a little useless.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

^ agree with Javon. I tried on a pair of trousers with one a while back (PRL?) and the rise wasn't high enough doe the adjuster to do much.


I notice in the ad the first poster posted one on the ivy details mentioned is "button stance", what exactly is this referring to? I only ask because I've come to think that a high button stance is a distinguishing trad/ivy/sack feature.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Two times in a row now that someone has mispelled my name that way. Last time it was someone at work who wrote "Javon." :icon_smile_big:


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## Gibson37 (Jul 9, 2009)

*Back Strap on Trousers*

I was introduced to the "Back Strap" in 1955, my freshman year in college. At that time It serviced no function other than a fashion feature. It was found on both polished cotton trousers & wool dress trousers. Sometime around 1960 to 1961 this detail was discontinued and also the style of buttoning the top two buttons on a 3/2 coat. :icon_smile:


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

In the mid-1950s I attended an all-boys Catholic school where the uniform was khaki pants (short for elementary, long in the upper years) plus a light blue short-sleeve shirt and a darker blue tie (for special school events and Mass the uniform was a double-breasted navy blue suit, but that's another story). It was jr. high age and we were becoming fashion conscious. The khakis were often pleated, but some of the hipper kids started wearing flat-front khakis with a belt in the back. Although I never wore them (we moved away and I left the school), I thought they looked terrific. I still do. Have seen them here and there and I do have a pair of RLP Bermudas with the back belt. Alas, I never wear a tucked-in shirt with the shorts so no one sees it. It's a private pleasure. I am also reminded that around that time I began seeing tasseled loafers, on adults, of course.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

I remember this. We always wondered what it was supposed to do.


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## Mazama (May 21, 2009)

Gibson37 said:


> I was introduced to the "Back Strap" in 1955, my freshman year in college. At that time It serviced no function other than a fashion feature. It was found on both polished cotton trousers & wool dress trousers. Sometime around 1960 to 1961 this detail was discontinued...


They were called "hiney binders" (sp) where I grew up in Virginia and still existed - not consistently - on casual pants until the late 60s along with locker loops on the back of Gant shirts.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Gibson37 said:


> I was introduced to the "Back Strap" in 1955, my freshman year in college. At that time It serviced no function other than a fashion feature. It was found on both polished cotton trousers & wool dress trousers. Sometime around 1960 to 1961 this detail was discontinued and also the style of buttoning the top two buttons on a 3/2 coat. :icon_smile:


Must have pulled something fierce. I hate when eBay sellers do that with an obviously undarted soft-shouldered coat, the top button looks like it's struggling to get out, I advise them to unfasten it, and they tell me I'm wrong.


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## AdamsSutherland (Jan 22, 2008)

I like locker loops. Unfortunately they are rare these days.

I'm glad that these back belts disappeared before I got onto the scene...


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

Jovan said:


> Must have pulled something fierce. I hate when eBay sellers do that with an obviously undarted soft-shouldered coat, the top button looks like it's struggling to get out, I advise them to unfasten it, and they tell me I'm wrong.


You would have been wrong in 50s and at least part of the 60s.:icon_smile:

During the transition period which I guess too place in the 60/70s it was a bit of a hassle when the coat was cut to have the top button fastened and the cleaners pressed the coat the other way.

It was almost enough to have one switch to two button suits although I never did. I don't think where I shopped at the time even sold two button suits.

You are right about the belt in the back of the trousers being useless. I have never worn any trousers with side adjusters, but I assume they do perform a useful function.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

AdamsSutherland said:


> I like locker loops. Unfortunately they are rare these days.
> 
> I'm glad that these back belts disappeared before I got onto the scene...


the BB black fleece still does locker loops...


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## TDI GUY (Oct 26, 2008)

There seems to be a consensus that the belt in the back of the trousers was not intended to be used. While it may have once served a function, it eventually became just an aesthetic detail, one that was once a part of the ivy league look and then fell out of favor. I will be interested to see how Press brings the belt in the back back, and if the trousers offer anything else "new" in terms of fabric, cut, etc. I would also be interested to know why Press decided that now was the time to bring it back. Have customers been asking for it? Is it at the encouragement of Japanese corporate? And are there other items which we might see appearing in stores soon?


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## TDI GUY (Oct 26, 2008)

I would love to see Press team up with Alden and do a loafer (have they ever carried a loafer?). Perhaps, given the Japanese connections, they could do something resembling the Alden 99162:


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## Pale Male (Mar 24, 2008)

*I remembered something about the "buckle on back"...*

Press Fall/Winter 2005: "The above trousers feature an antique brass buckle on back of waist band." I can't see it the photo, but there you have it. Charcoal & Med. Gray Flannel -- $225.00!

Where's steedappeal? Paging Desk Jockey? Wherefore art thou Misterman?


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## KCKclassic (Jul 27, 2009)

FWIW- I saw a pair of madras shorts (possibly patchwork) by Ralph Lauren at Marshall's a few weeks ago with this embellishment. Can't say I am a fan, but my mother said that she remembers them as being quite the rage in her day.
Seems to me it could snag, or at least be marginally uncomfortable.


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## momainetx (Jan 2, 2008)

*Another old "Ivy" anachronism*

While we're on the subject of belted back chinos, etc. (I remember as a kid in the 1950s), what about the back button on a button-down collar? That was a mark of a more expensive shirt in the mid-1960s, but when did it disappear?


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## Pale Male (Mar 24, 2008)

*Buttons and more buttons...*

Press classic has button on pocket flap as well as button on collar.


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

Agave did make shirts with a collar button; don't know if they still do.


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## KCKclassic (Jul 27, 2009)

Currently wearing a tommy hilfiger knockaround OCBD that has the back collar button. Only shirt in my closet that has one.


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## Marcus Brody (Oct 11, 2008)

I thrifted a Brooks 3/2 dark tan Prince of Wales sack suit not long ago. The inside of the label has a handwritten "1972" on it, so I assumed that is when it is from. It has the back of trousers strap though, which after reading this thread seems a bit late for it.


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