# Most uplifting thing I've read in awhile



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Very cool. Restores one's faith in the youth of America.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Ok...so we know that teenagers know how to be knee jerk liberals. 

Now what do they really know about grammar, math and history? Just asking.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Article~


> The teachers' union, whose members forced two high schools to close Friday by calling in sick,...


It's all about the kids!!


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Ah, c'mon, guys. Are we all so jaded that we can't applaud kids when they see BS and take action?

The knee-jerks here are the folks on the school board, not the kids who walked out. Classes on patriotism? Do you really agree with that?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Without civil disobedience there would have been no independence for the American colonies, surely?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> Classes on patriotism? Do you really agree with that?


Article~


> ...*recently proposed a curriculum-review committee to promote* patriotism, respect for authority and free enterprise


A curriculum review is not a class.

Promoting or encouraging patriotism is not a class in patriotism.

I want to make clear just who the knee-jerkers are!!


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Article~
> 
> A curriculum review is not a class.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but that sounds pretty knee-jerk to me. Kind of like establishing re-education camps.

On a (somewhat) similar note, there is this: https://www.businessweek.com/articl...cuts-ties-with-alec-over-climate-change-lying

Perhaps the tide is turning against right-wing propagandists.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ The last thing any public school can be accused of, anywhere in this country, is that they are purveyors of Right Wing propaganda! 

The public schools and the colleges are the last bastions of almost pure left wing liberalism left in this country and God forbid someone tries to challenge that in the smallest way.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

SG_67 said:


> ^ The last thing any public school can be accused of, anywhere in this country, is that they are purveyors of Right Wing propaganda!
> 
> The public schools and the colleges are the last bastions of almost pure left wing liberalism left in this country and God forbid someone tries to challenge that in the smallest way.


Keep drinking the Kool-Aid...


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> Sorry, but that sounds pretty knee-jerk to me. Kind of like establishing re-education camps.


This type of irony MUST be deliberate!!

:icon_hailthee:


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> Keep drinking the Kool-Aid...


I guess we figured out yet another reason why some people think educational funding should be cut/stopped and the current batch of teachers all fired. Just don't ask for any concrete proof confirming this "last bastion of pure left wing liberalism". None ever comes from these sorts.

I do wonder though... Are there really no rightie propagada organizations on campuses in this day and age?

Aren't recruiting programs in jr. high and high school a rightie thing? What about ROTC programs in most universities?

Aren't there plenty of rightie religious groups on most campuses?

Young Republicans?

Young Americans for "Freedom"?

Students for life?

Young America's foundation?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Schools are free to decline federal monies if they want. That way they don't have to worry about ROTC and recruiters.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Without civil disobedience there would have been no independence for the American colonies, surely?


Surely.

But what of civil disobedience in the face of an enemy consisting of Straw Men and ginned up phony controversy??


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> Schools are free to decline federal monies if they want. That way they don't have to worry about ROTC and recruiters.


That would be a good attitude to take with welfare countries that suck money out of U.S. pockets and then refuse to listen to & support the U.S. when it comes down to the wire.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Come on...come on!! You know you want to say it! 

Say it with me now, come on!

I...S...R

I'll let you finish the rest.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

As they say here at AAAC.. "If the shoe fits, wear it". Is your little cause a welfare state? Do they take the money out of American's pockets? Do they cooperate with their welfare providers (the U.S.) when asked to?

I have stated "*welfare countries" *several times. You are the one crying because Israel fits in with the welfare grabbers. Just admit it. You know you want to. *Israel over All. *Your loyalties are to Israel and not to the U.S. and her citizens. Why else would you advocate cutting benefits for Americans while shelling out billions to a welfare country that is wealthier, better educated, and has a better infrastructure?

getting back to the theme though. If schools can be coerced into allowing federal military programs or risk losing funds, then why not with ...The welfare* countries..... *If we give them our funds then perhaps they should be obligated to do as we want. If we say....stop killing people in the desert......Stop building where you're not suppose to....Follow U.N. régulations.... And they don't want to? Then they are not only free to not cash our yearly welfare checks but we should probably stop sending the welfare checks as well


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Thank you for your use of *BOLD* lettering. It makes your rants far more interesting to read.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

^^^^ You're welcome. I'm happy to hear it helped you in some small way. As they say...."Every little bit counts" and I sincerely hope that one day you will get all the help you need in providing lucid arguements that can be backed up with some type of supporting evidence. . I myself was actually more concerned as to your possible vision/reading problems. I mean how else could you explain that whenever I stated "welfare countries", you read it as "a particular welfare country". Perhaps putting words in other's mouths is just the reflex of a guilty conscience? Either way. I'm glad the bold letters helped. 

Back on topic....We're all still waiting for you to support your arguements from post #8. Any comment on how you missed the multiple right wing organizations present on U.S. college campuses as listed in post #11??

Oh... Are 3 short paragraphs really considered a rant?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> ^ Come on...come on!! You know you want to say it!
> 
> Say it with me now, come on!


Say it.

SAY IT!!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

A more complete explanation of the molehill this mountain was created from;



> According to the proposal from Jeffco School Board of Education member Julie Williams, the committee would make sure that U.S. history materials "promote citizenship, patriotism, essentials and benefits of the free enterprise system, respect for authority and respect for individual rights. Materials should not encourage or condone civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law. Instructional materials should present positive aspects of the United States and its heritage. *Content pertaining to political and social movements in U.S. history should present balanced and factual treatments of the positions."*





> about the student protests and explained what she was trying to do with her proposal.
> "I must not have explained myself clearly. I thought everyone, or at least everyone involved in education understood the huge debate and controversy surrounding the new APUSH (Advanced Placement U.S. History). To be accused of censorship? 'Seriously?' That is just ridiculous. I am advocating for just the opposite," Williams wrote.
> "APUSH is new. This is important to state because some may not know it is NEW. It came into existence quite recently under dubious and secretive circumstances (just like the Common Core). If fully implemented, APUSH would greatly modify and standardize the teaching of US History in every high school in America," she continued. "APUSH rejects the history that has been taught in the country for generations. It has an emphasis on race, gender, class, ethnicity, grievance and American-bashing while simultaneously omitting the most basic structural and philosophical elements considered essential to the understanding of American History for generations. Let me give you some examples of who is omitted: Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Franklin with not even a mention of Martin Luther King, Jr. who was on the forefront of the civil rights movement. It ignores lessons on the Boston Tea Party, Lexington, Jefferson's First Inaugural Address, Lincoln's Gettysburg Address and the list continues." (Read her full letter.)


https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/student-walk-outs-possible-at-pomona-arvada-west-and-ralston-valley-high-schools-tuesday


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Article~
> 
> A curriculum review is not a class.
> 
> ...


Of course it is!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
> 
> Very cool. Restores one's faith in the youth of America.


I'd like to read the article, but it won't open....


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> According to the proposal from Jeffco School Board of Education member Julie Williams,_ *the committee would make sure that U.S. history materials "promote citizenship, patriotism, essentials and benefits of the free enterprise system, respect for authority and respect for individual rights.* Materials should not encourage or condone civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law. Instructional materials should present positive aspects of the United States and its heritage. _*Content pertaining to political and social movements in U.S. history should present balanced and factual treatments of the positions."*


Looks like a directive to teach patriotism, capitalism, authoritarianism and civil obedience, under the guise of history, to me.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

God forbid someone actually learns to love his country and appreciate the blessings of liberty and learn the price paid to preserve our rights and liberties. 

Yes, I agree. Let's forgo that nonsense and teach our kids that there's really nothing special about the US. We're no more exceptional than the Congolese.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

32rollandrock said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
> 
> Very cool.


I wouldn't call it cool but I would call it necessary. What I see it as is a school board taking the authoritarian fascist stance of "we don't want people to be allowed to disagee with any authority or legislation or to express their opinions physically or in writing"


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I wouldn't call it cool but I would call it necessary. What I see it as is a school board taking the authoritarian fascist stance of "we don't want people to be allowed to disagee with any authority or legislation or to express their opinions physically or in writing"


Not only that, but they want to teach that authority does no wrong. This way there is no reason to question or disagree with authority/legislation to began with.

They have all the steps of a good brainwashing

1. Start em young....I pledge allegiance to a flag? The magical thing in the corner that is soooo sacred that we place our hands on our hearts in respect and awe. More powerful than mama and papa. More mystical than santa, the easter bunny and the toth fairy rolled into in one. An then we're using the word "god". That must be really, really serious.

2. We do no wrong... Pay attention class. It's time to learn that everything the wonderful leaders have done is perfect. No mistakes have been made. There is never any criminality, corruption or greed involved. The all Wise ones have lead us into utopia. There has never been and never will be slavery, internment camps, racism, sexism, torture, problematic court systems, problematic school systems, problematic medical systems, problematic foreign relations.

3. This is officer friendly. Do whatever he says kids. He's the good guy just like santa claus and the easter bunny. He is an "Authority" that's here to ensure that your rights are protected. If there's ever a problem you just go right to officer friendly. He's honest and hardworking. Never corrupt. Never on the take. Never abusive of his powers.

4. Because I said so that's why (shut and do what I say or I'll punish you)......I made my decision and although it directly affects you, you have no say in the matter. You will respect my authority to do so, without protest or I will punish you for standing up for yourself and your beliefs. Follow our rules without question. If I say jump, you ask how high.

5. When your government/school has gone too far. Just sit there. Do not stand up for what were at one point considered civil liberties. No good has ever come out of civil disobedience. Kent state? The great leaders shot down a bunch of kids because they were protesting and civil disobedience must be punished in the harshest forms at all times.

6. There is always an enemy. We must be vigilent and paranoid at all times. Yesterday it was the communists, today it's the foreign terrorists, and tomorrow is home grown terrorists. Report your neighbor's "suspicious" behavior. Are mom and dad commiting a crime? Report them to authorities. You will be rewarded.

7. Hi little timmy, I'm staff seargent grey. How old are you? 12? Did you know that in 3 short years you can sign up to have an exciting career protecting America in the U.S. Army? Are your parents perhaps brainwashed patriotic fools willing to string a tween into signing up for military service?

8. We have a right to search your belongings on school property. We have a right to search your belongings on government property. We have the right to search you belongings at all transport hubs. We have the right to search your belongings if a cop wants to. We have the right to tap your phones and collect your email/online data without a warrant. We have a right to set up secret courts that allow he skirting of the U.S. constitution. We have the right to hold others without trial. We have the right to torture. We have the right to kill u.s. citizens overseas without trial. We have the right to......

9. Do they play the national athem before sporting events in all countries? You know. Where everyone in the audience has to get up, face a flag, put their hands on their heart, etc?


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

justonemore said:


> Not only that, but they want to teach that authority does no wrong. This way there is no reason to question or disagree with authority/legislation to began with.
> 
> They have all the steps of a good brainwashing
> 
> ...


I can't take the credit. Someone over at Zero Hedge posted it, but it rings oh so true.


> _On the sixth day of Hate Week__, after the processions, the speeches, the shouting, the singing, the banners, the posters, the films, the waxworks, the rolling of drums and squealing of trumpets, the tramp of marching feet, the grinding of the caterpillars of tanks, the roar of massed planes, the booming of guns - after six days of this, when the great orgasm was quivering to its climax and the general hatred of Al-Qaida had boiled up into such delirium that if the crowd could have got their hands on the 2,000 Al-Qaida terrorists who were to be killed in drone strikes on the last day of the proceedings, they would unquestionably have torn them to pieces - at just this moment it had been announced that Oceania was not after all at war with Al-Qaida. Oceania was at war with ISIS. Al-Qaida was an ally.
> 
> There was, of course, no admission that any change had taken place. Merely it became known, with extreme suddenness and everywhere at once, that ISIS and not Al-Qaida was the enemy. Winston was taking part in a demonstration in one of the central London squares at the moment when it happened. It was night, and the white faces and the scarlet banners were luridly floodlit. The square was packed with several thousand people, including a block of about a thousand schoolchildren in the uniform of the Spies. On a scarlet-draped platform an orator of the Inner Party, a small lean man with disproportionately long arms and a large bald skull over which a few lank locks straggled, was haranguing the crowd. A little Rumpelstiltskin figure, contorted with hatred, he gripped the neck of the microphone with one hand while the other, enormous at the end of a bony arm, clawed the air menacingly above his head. His voice, made metallic by the amplifiers, boomed forth an endless catalogue of atrocities, massacres, deportations, lootings, rapings, torture of prisoners, bombing of civilians, lying propaganda, unjust aggressions, broken treaties. It was almost impossible to listen to him without being first convinced and then maddened. At every few moments the fury of the crowd boiled over and the voice of the speaker was drowned by a wild beast-like roaring that rose uncontrollably from thousands of throats. The most savage yells of all came from the schoolchildren.
> 
> ...


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Those that push for blindly respecting authority are blind themselves. Anyone with more than a single firing brain cell should be able to see the negative social implications of such.

Milgram proved it at Yale back in 1961 for goodness sake. We also have Zimbardo at Stanford. Of course we should just write them (and the multitudes of others) off as Libbie whackos.

Milgrams's 37: "Stanley Milgram's experiments on obedience to authority are among the most important psychological studies of this century. Perhaps because of the enduring significance of the findings-the surprising ease with which ordinary persons can be commanded to act destructively against an innocent individual by an authority"

Zimbardo 's Stanford Prison Experiment: "The results of the experiment have been argued to demonstrate the impressionability and obedience of people when provided with a legitimizing ideology and social and institutional support. The experiment has also been used to illustrate cognitive dissonance theory and the power of authority.The results of the experiment favor situational attribution of behavior rather than dispositional attribution (a result caused by internal characteristics). In other words, it seemed that the situation, rather than their individual personalities, caused the participants' behavior. Under this interpretation, the results are compatible with the results of the Milgram experiment, in which ordinary people fulfilled orders to administer what appeared to be agonizing and dangerous electric shocks to a confederate of the experimenter."

Before we get too much into respecting and following authority let us think of principle 4 of the Nuremberg Priciples:

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".

Paraphrased: "It is not an acceptable excuse to say 'I was just following orders from the government/authorities'".

Paraphrased again:

https://imageshack.com/i/iq7OWU8uj


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

"A little Anarchy can be healthy" - Ari L. Goldman.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

"Every man who loves his country hopes for the suppression of half his compatriots"- Emil Cioran

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. - John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in every age. - Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.- Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. - Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. - Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, "Our country, right or wrong." - James Russell Lowell

"My country right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother drunk or sober." - G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and "My country never wrong" is an even more dangerous maxim than "My country, right or wrong." - Bertrand Russell

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. - George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. - George Bernard Shaw

You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. - George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. - George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. - Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. - George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. - H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. "Patriotism" is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. - Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism-it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what's more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. - Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and "patriotism" . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots. - Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. - Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. - William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. - Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. - Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. - Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. - Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. - J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. - Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. - Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don't want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. - Hermann Goering.

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism-how passionately I hate them! - Albert Einstein

3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. - Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. - Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but you own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. - Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! - David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. - Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be "American" before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. - Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. - George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. - Thomas Corwin

5. Three relatively positive assessments of patriotism:

A patriot is somebody who protects his country from his government. Or better yet: who has the guts to protect his country from its government. - Piotyr Dirk

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. - George Washington

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. - Thomas Jefferson


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Emma Goldman, 1908.... 

"Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better, grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others. "The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that from early infancy the mind of the child is provided with blood-curdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. "When the child has reached manhood he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner. It is for that purpose that we are clamoring for a greater army and navy, more battleships and ammunition..."

Leo Tolstoy, 1894

"To destroy governmental violence, only one thing is needed: It is that people should understand that the feeling of patriotism, which alone supports that instrument of violence, is a rude, harmful, disgraceful, and bad feeling, and, above all, is immoral. "It is a rude feeling, because it is natural only to people standing on the lowest level of morality, and expecting from other nations such outrages as they themselves are ready to inflict. "It is a harmful feeling, because it disturbs advantageous and joyous, peaceful relations with other peoples, and above all produces that governmental organization under which power may fall, and does fall, into the, hands of the worst men. "It is a disgraceful feeling, because it turns man not merely into a slave, but into a fighting cock, a bull, or a gladiator, who wastes his strength and his life for objects which are not his own but his Government's. "And it is an immoral feeling, because, instead of confessing one's self a son of God (as Christianity teaches us) or even a free man guided by his own reason, each man under the influence of patriotism confesses himself the son of his fatherland and the slave of his Government, and commits actions contrary to his reason and his conscience." Patriotism is "a very definite feeling of preference for one's own people or State above all other peoples and States, and a consequent wish to get for that people or State the greatest advantages and power that can be got -- things which are obtainable only at the expense of the advantages and power of other peoples or States. "It would, therefore, seem obvious that patriotism as a feeling is bad and harmful, and as a doctrine is stupid. For it is clear that if each people and each State considers itself the best of peoples and States, they all live in a gross and harmful delusion." "In our day the feeling of patriotism is an unnatural, irrational, and harmful feeling, and a cause of a great part of the ills from which mankind is suffering, and that, consequently, this feeling -- should not be cultivated, as is now being done, but should, on the contrary, be suppressed and eradicated by all means available to rational men."

Howard Zinn, U.S. historian, 2005 

"There was something horrifying in the realization that, in this twenty-first century of what we call 'civilization,' we have carved up what we claim is one world into 200 artificially created entities we call 'nations' and armed to apprehend or kill anyone who crosses a boundary. "Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred? These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power. "...Surely, we must renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed. "...We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation."


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

justonemore said:


> "Every man who loves his country hopes for the suppression of half his compatriots"- Emil Cioran
> 
> Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. - John Dryden
> 
> ...


"This is just like television, only you can see much further." - Chauncey Gardiner


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> God forbid someone actually learns to love his country and appreciate the blessings of liberty and learn the price paid to preserve our rights and liberties.
> 
> Yes, I agree. Let's forgo that nonsense and teach our kids that there's really nothing special about the US. We're no more exceptional than the Congolese.


Yes, you should teach mythology, chauvinism and jingoism. Best to ignore facts, that really do get in the way, don't they. Actually, there have been quite a few regimes, quite unattractive totalitarian regimes of both Left and Right, that shared these expressed views of what History should be.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Chouan said:


> Yes, you should teach mythology, chauvinism and jingoism. Best to ignore facts, that really do get in the way, don't they. Actually, there have been quite a few regimes, quite unattractive totalitarian regimes of both Left and Right, that shared these expressed views of what History should be.


Is that what you really see this as?

I suppose you see the Boy Scouts in the same vain.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Just when you though the knee-jerkers couldn't possibly top themselves...

:eek2:


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> Is that what you really see this as?
> 
> I suppose you see the Boy Scouts in the same vain.


The Boy Scouts were established as part of a jingoistic imperialistic movement to indoctrinate British youth with imperialist, yet at the same time socialist ideas. Baden Powell's idea was to prepare the youth of Britain to be Britain's Empire builders, soldiers and administrators, whilst helping and looking after those more unfortunate than one's self. These principles were loosely copied by Sinn Fein, Mussolini, Hitler, Russia (Komsomol & the "Young Pioneers) and others who wished to indoctrinate their youth.

One thing that it isn't is History.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Chouan said:


> Why would you suppose that? Although, having said that, the Boy Scouts were established as part of a jingoistic imperialistic movement to indoctrinate British youth with imperialist, yet at the same time socialist ideas. Baden Powell's idea was to prepare the youth of Britain to be Britain's Empire builders, soldiers and administrators, whilst helping and looking after those more unfortunate than one's self. These principles were loosely copied by Sinn Fein, Mussolini, Hitler, Russia (Komsomol & the "Young Pioneers) and others who wished to indoctrinate their youth.
> 
> One thing that it isn't is History.


Why would I suppose that? I think you just answered your own question.

I won't quarrel with you. Not because I'm in agreement but we are so far off that a quarrel would be in vain.

Nor will I have fun at your expense since unlike others, at least you present your arguments somewhat coherently.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> I think you just answered your own question.


Yes, that all youth organizations that promote duty, honor and self reliance are equal and as such equally harmful.

Where have we seen that before??


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Chouan said:


> The Boy Scouts were established as part of a jingoistic imperialistic movement to indoctrinate British youth with imperialist, yet at the same time socialist ideas. Baden Powell's idea was to prepare the youth of Britain to be Britain's Empire builders, soldiers and administrators, whilst helping and looking after those more unfortunate than one's self. These principles were loosely copied by Sinn Fein, Mussolini, Hitler, Russia (Komsomol & the "Young Pioneers) and others who wished to indoctrinate their youth.
> 
> One thing that it isn't is History.


you forgot to mention that scouts u.s. is famously homophobic and refuses to allow atheist youth to join unless they make pledges to god. These conservative righties have infiltrated many american grade schools & jr highs using their national status as a reason to beg cheap rent out of schools (and the taxpayer).


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Yes, that all youth organizations that promote duty, honor and self reliance are equal and as such equally harmful.
> 
> Where have we seen that before??


I suppose for some it's easy to think in such a linear fashion; Nazi Youth = Boy Scouts. Why not? Patriotism = Jingoism. Again, why not?

There is a sort of intellectual comfort one can take from abandoning critical thinking when making such comparisons about anything.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> There is a sort of intellectual comfort one can take from abandoning critical thinking when making such comparisons about anything.


That it comes from those allegedly promoting "critical thinking" in education is what I get the most pleasure from!!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> I suppose for some it's easy to think in such a linear fashion; Nazi Youth = Boy Scouts. Why not? Patriotism = Jingoism. Again, why not?
> 
> There is a sort of intellectual comfort one can take from abandoning critical thinking when making such comparisons about anything.


Then instead of calling the course of study "History", which it isn't, call it "Patriotism", or "Heritage Studies". Teaching kids *"to love his country and appreciate the blessings of liberty *_*and learn the price paid to preserve our rights and liberties.*"_ simply isn't History.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ I didn't say we should "teach" kids to love their country. Rather, we should educate our kids so that they can appreciate and "learn" to love their country. Please don't misquote me. To teach is an affirmative act. To allow a child to learn on his own indicates critical thinking on the part of the child. 

I'm sorry but I just don't understand what is so bad about loving one's country? Could someone please explain to me how this correlates with fascism? Our not our liberties blessings? Have we not paid a price to preserve those rights and liberties?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't understand what is so bad about loving one's country? Could someone please explain to me how this correlates with fascism? Our not our liberties blessings? Have we not paid a price to preserve those rights and liberties?


I'm not sure that anybody is suggesting, or has suggested that loving one's country is a bad thing. I love my wife, yet I'm not blind to her faults (I like to think that she loves me, although she has the advantage of not having to deal with any faults on my part.) and studying the History of one's country only in terms of learning *"to love his country and appreciate the blessings of liberty and learn the price paid to preserve our rights and liberties."* is abandoning, not only that principle, but is also abandoning the principle of what History is.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

I find it interesting that those who scream protest the loudest when someone that they agree with questions or belittles an authority that they disagree with are the same ones who scream the loudest when someone they disagree with questions or belittles an authority that the agree with.....


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> ^ I didn't say we should "teach" kids to love their country. Rather, we should educate our kids so that they can appreciate and "learn" to love their country. Please don't misquote me. To teach is an affirmative act. To allow a child to learn on his own indicates critical thinking on the part of the child.


The statement of intent, quoted on the previous page, was to *"promote citizenship, patriotism, essentials and benefits of the free enterprise system, respect for authority and respect for individual rights. Materials should not encourage or condone civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law. Instructional materials should present positive aspects of the United States and its heritage."* That direction to "promote" suggests an affirmative act to me. If teachers are to "promote" concepts, both political and socio-economic, in lessons, and the directive that "instructional materials" (even the wording is affirmative, arguing instruction rather than education) are to be positive about the US also suggests that the kids are to be taught to love their country. 
Lessons that "promote" or "should not condone" have no place in History, either national or otherwise.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Chouan said:


> Lessons that "promote" or "should not condone" have no place in History, either national or otherwise.





> * Materials should not encourage or condone civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law*


So on this point we agree.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> So on this point we agree.


No, we don't. Rearranging what I wrote to make it appear to support your view doesn't really work, I'm afraid.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Chouan said:


> No, we don't. Rearranging what I wrote to make it appear to support your view doesn't really work, I'm afraid.


See, I try to find common ground but you insist on being disagreeable!!

If one asserts the following; lessons that "promote" or "should not condone" have no place in History, they should object to materials that encourage or condone civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law in a History class.

Unless, what you really object to, is promoting or condoning only that with which you do not agree.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Chouan said:


> I'm not sure that anybody is suggesting, or has suggested that loving one's country is a bad thing. I love my wife, yet I'm not blind to her faults (I like to think that she loves me, although she has the advantage of not having to deal with any faults on my part.) and studying the History of one's country only in terms of learning *"to love his country and appreciate the blessings of liberty and learn the price paid to preserve our rights and liberties."* is abandoning, not only that principle, but is also abandoning the principle of what History is.


Interesting connection here. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions?

Did you have school lessons on how to love & respect your wife? How do you know that you're doing it right if no one has told you what it is supposed to be? Would love (of country) not be more of a topic taught throughout the years by ones parents/parental figures? And after x amount of years, the child grows up, expériences things for him/herself, and formulâtes their own opinion of love (for country) based off of their own personal expériences of love (for country)? Isn't love (for country) by the book a fake love? A love that is someone else's idea of love (for country)? Someone else's expériences of love (for country)? Someone elses everything?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> See, I try to find common ground but you insist on being disagreeable!!
> 
> If one asserts the following; lessons that "promote" or "should not condone" have no place in History, they should object to materials that encourage or condone civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law in a History class.
> 
> Unless, what you really object to, is promoting or condoning only that with which you do not agree.


Then we agree on something, at last. Promoting Socialism or Capitalism in a History lesson are both wrong. Promoting civil disobedience in History is as wrong as condemning civil disobedience. As I've repeatedly said, promotion of any concept has no place in a History classroom.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

justonemore said:


> Interesting connection here. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions?
> 
> Did you have school lessons on how to love & respect your wife? How do you know that you're doing it right if no one has told you what it is supposed to be? Would love (of country) not be more of a topic taught throughout the years by ones parents/parental figures? And after x amount of years, the child grows up, expériences things for him/herself, and formulâtes their own opinion of love (for country) based off of their own personal expériences of love (for country)? Isn't love (for country) by the book a fake love? A love that is someone else's idea of love (for country)? Someone else's expériences of love (for country)? Someone elses everything?


Of course, and in any case the promotion of love of country, even if it were laudable and desirable has no place in a History lesson. Whilst I believe the teaching and promotion of the concepts listed is questionable in any case, indeed, more than merely questionable, teaching and promoting them under the guise of History is dishonest, at best.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Chouan said:


> Then we agree on something, at last. Promoting Socialism or Capitalism in a History lesson are both wrong. Promoting civil disobedience in History is as wrong as condemning civil disobedience. As I've repeatedly said, promotion of any concept has no place in a History classroom.


:teacha: I'm writing this down!!


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Chouan said:


> Then we agree on something, at last. Promoting Socialism or Capitalism in a History lesson are both wrong. Promoting civil disobedience in History is as wrong as condemning civil disobedience. As I've repeatedly said, promotion of any concept has no place in a History classroom.


Except when students start asking questions, as will almost always be the case if the students are in the least bit curious. How those questions are answered and the conclusions that are drawn become the conceptual framework by which our history is taught and understood.

History is more than just a random collection of facts and dates. I can go into Wikipedia, put in today's date and get a list of random, but historically significant events that occurred on September 25th. That's not a history lesson. Those facts are meaningless unless framed as a discussion as to the historical significance. How those events are framed and the conclusions drawn are what history is about.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Chouan said:


> Then instead of calling the course of study "History", which it isn't, call it "Patriotism", or "Heritage Studies". Teaching kids *"to love his country and appreciate the blessings of liberty *_*and learn the price paid to preserve our rights and liberties.*"_ simply isn't History.


Back in the 1950's the course was titled Civics. Based on an admittedly shaky memory, it seems to me the the title "Government" was also used. Mr Randecker was the teacher.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> Except when students start asking questions, as will almost always be the case if the students are in the least bit curious. How those questions are answered and the conclusions that are drawn become the conceptual framework by which our history is taught and understood.
> 
> History is more than just a random collection of facts and dates. I can go into Wikipedia, put in today's date and get a list of random, but historically significant events that occurred on September 25th. That's not a history lesson. Those facts are meaningless unless framed as a discussion as to the historical significance. How those events are framed and the conclusions drawn are what history is about.


Indeed. However, teaching kids patriotism isn't History.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Chouan said:


> Indeed. However, teaching kids patriotism isn't History.


True, but in practice it's often framed as such.
Growing up in Ireland, history lessons in school were heavy on "perfidious Albion". At what stage it crosses over into indoctrination is hard to say.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Odradek said:


> True, but in practice it's often framed as such.
> Growing up in Ireland, history lessons in school were heavy on "perfidious Albion". At what stage it crosses over into indoctrination is hard to say.


Once the mythology is learned as "History" it is very hard to change the perception. I use this as an example of how bias is created: (Sorry about the formatting.....)

*What Irish children learned in their history lessons*
In 1916, a group of Irish Nationalists tried to take over control of their country from the British. Up to that time, the whole of Ireland was part of the British Empire and was run by the British Government in London. The Nationalists wanted Ireland to be an independent country run by the Irish. Another group of people who lived in Ireland wanted Ireland to remain part of the British Empire. They liked the UNION Ireland had with Britain. They called themselves the Unionists.
*Your task*
Read the introductions of the two people here. Both were at school in Ireland in 1904 and were in Year 9. They were in different schools of course. They are both being told the 'facts! of Irish History. In their own exercise books they write down their opinions of these facts.



*Michael Collins*
*NATIONALIST*
Came from a poor farming family in Cork in south Ireland. His family were Catholic and he was taught by a Nationalist teacher.
He felt the British had invaded and used the Irish and that they had no right to rule Ireland.
*Lesson 1*
England tried to make the Irish follow English customs in the 1530s, because they did not want Irish Catholics to rebel
against them. Ireland was all Catholic at this time.

_In the 1530s, the English did a terrible thing because_
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................

*Lesson 2*
Irish Catholic lords rebel against English rule in the 1590s. Elizabeth does not want the Spanish to use Ireland as a way
of attacking England. Elizabeth takes land away from Irish Catholics and gives it to Scottish Protestants. Some of the best farmland goes to these new landowners, under the rule of a few Protestants.

_Queen Elizabeth had no right to_
_do what she did all those years_
_ago because_
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................
 
*Beatrice Stuart*
*UNIONIST*
Beatrice came from a rich farming family in Antrim in Northern Ireland. Her family had originally come from Scotland and been
given the land hundreds of years ago by Queen Elizabeth I. Beatrice's family were Protestant as were all her friends.
*Lesson 1*
England tried to make the Irish follow English customs in the 1530s, because they did not want Irish Catholics to rebel
against them. Ireland was all Catholic at this time.

_It is a good thing the English did this because_
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................

*Lesson 2*
Irish Catholic lords rebel against English rule in the 1590s. Elizabeth does not want the Spanish to use Ireland as a way of attacking England. Elizabeth takes land away from Irish Catholics and gives it to Scottish Protestants. Some of the best
farmland goes to these new landowners, under the rule of a few Protestants.

_It __i__s no wonder that Elizabeth gave land to my ancestors from Scotland because_
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................


 


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

^^^

That is a good example, and exactly what the local school board in Colorado is trying to counter.



> "APUSH is new. This is important to state because some may not know it is NEW. It came into existence quite recently under dubious and secretive circumstances (just like the Common Core). If fully implemented, APUSH would greatly modify and standardize the teaching of US History in every high school in America,"


Unfortunately, the way they announced their opposition could have been handled better.

That failure however, is nothing compared to the idiotic over reaction of the teachers union using students to promote its own self interest.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> ^^^
> 
> That failure however, is nothing compared to the idiotic over reaction of the teachers union using students to promote its own self interest.


Much like the new board members that came in and made radical changes (without communication to the community) in order to pursue a political agenda over running schools?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> Much like the new board members that came in and made radical changes (without communication to the community) in order to pursue a political agenda over running schools?


Did you read ANY of the articles linked in this thread??

That's exatly what the school board was doing. Making proposals. No "radical changes" have been made besides the introduction of APUSH which the school board proposes countering.

And instead of discussion, they get the teachers union taking kids out of class for "protests"


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> :teacha: I'm writing this down!!


I'm glad I've got him on ignore. I can't bear to read his idiotic nonsense anymore.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I'm glad I've got him on ignore. I can't bear to read his idiotic nonsense anymore.


Um.

Was this supposed to be a PM??

ic12337:


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

I'm not taking sides in this conflict between school board and students except to say that the fact the students are taking an active interest in curriculum is a good sign. Also I have to say that civil disobedience is why the USA exists at all, so discouraging it seems unpatriotic and hypocritical.

With that out of the way, I'm not ready to condemn the school board; I don't plan to take the time to read their position statements and evaluate them. I will instead give thanks that in my own community the schools are excellent and accommodate debate and disagreement so long as they are thoughtful.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Um.
> 
> Was this supposed to be a PM??
> 
> ic12337:


No, I don't send or accept PMs, I turned that function off. I like my opinions to be seen & my conversations to be public


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