# Edward Green RTW v. John Lobb RTW



## sclemmons (Mar 4, 2006)

Who wins and why? I love the EG but I can find the JL more readily. Either has a distinctive look and remarkable quality. I am leaning towards JL. What do you think?


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Here's what I wrote about JL Paris and Edward Green in my RTW shoes thread:



> *
> John Lobb Paris* -- Just about the most sublime RTW shoe available (Jermyn II) is made by John Lobb Paris. The shoes with the "bevelled bootmaker" soles (Lobb calls them the "Prestige" line) are usually superlative. They're made from skins that are frequently close to bespoke in quality, the lasts typically used (7000 and 8000) are elegant, and the construction is every bit as good as the best machine-made shoes in the world. The regular line isn't as good -- no bevelled waists, some lasts used are less elegant (8695, 9795), etc. -- but they're still excellent shoes. The prices have gotten completely out of control -- nearly $900 for a regular-line cap-toe bal is outrageous, in my humble opinion. The original John Lobb in London started its Paris outpost in 1901. In 1976, the Paris shop was sold to Hermes, along with the exclusive right to market RTW shoes bearing the Lobb name (except in Japan, where there exists a substandard line of shoes called Lobb's that is completely unaffiliated with either JL St. James or JL Paris). JL Paris shoes are made in the former Edward Green factory in Northampton, England, which is why it appears in this section rather than in the French section.*
> 
> Edward Green* -- Maker of the second most sublime RTW shoe available (Dover) and user of some wonderfully elegant lasts (82, 808, 888, etc.). EG doesn't make an equivalent to JL Paris's bevelled bootmaker shoes, but their shoes are made to standards equal to or better than JL's regular line shoes. EG is known for the antiquing that they apply to their shoes; they get their skins in a "crust" state, without much if any pigment applied. That allows them to apply a wonderful variegated finish to all of their non-black shoes. I think it's beautiful, but others aren't so enthusiastic.


I like shoes from both makers, but I continue to buy EG shoes while I haven't purchased anything new from JL Paris in two or three years. There are several reasons for this. First, EG lasts fit my feet better than JL Paris lasts (others will obviously have different experiences). Second, I like EG's crust leather. Third, EG shoes are more reasonably priced; I wouldn't call $950 per pair exactly reasonable, but EG hasn't seen the precipitous price increases over the last few years that JL Paris has. Fourth, I think that EG shoes are marginally better made (emphasis on _marginally_). Fifth, I think that EG lasts are more elegant than JL Paris lasts, generally speaking.

(I should mention that the RTW/MTO shoes from are, to my mind, better than either EG or JL Paris; and I eagerly await delivery of the order I placed back in October.)


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

Jcusey, are you comparing the Edward Greens to Lobb's regular line or their Prestige line? 

I don't have a pair of Edward Greens myself, so don't have the most thorough information. However, I do own a few Prestige line John Lobbs. When I compared the Lobbs to Edward Greens in store, it seemed to me that the soles of the Lobbs were more graceful and meticulously finished. In comparison to the regular line John Lobbs, the Prestige shoes give me a lot more support in my foot's arch area: I feel as if my feet are being gently cradled. On the other hand, when I tried on the regular John Lobbs and the Edward Greens, I felt more distinctly like I was standing on the beds of my shoes. To me, this subtle but real difference is enough to justify the much higher price for the Lobbs. 

Also, there is something to be said for the fact that John Lobb Paris is a much more dependable company than Edward Green, what with its delivery delays, inability to keep vendors stocked, and rumored restructuring of their product lines to include a 'Top Drawer' shoe.


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## Cravate Royale (Nov 5, 2006)

*JL Shoes*

I have owned both EG and JL and have a weakness for the JL Prestige line, as the shoes are finished just right, and their lines are truely excellent. I also do like the JL Prestige line specifically for the Museum leather. The shading that they are able to achieve is quite spectacular. I just bought the JL Prestige Luffield in Dark Brown Museum, and also had the Jermyn II ordered in Red Museum calf that came out very, very well. 
The EG's however, do have their own charm, with regards to their spectacular lasts, and the finish they are able to achieve specifically with regards to the coloring of their leathers. 
With regards to pricing here in the San Francsico area. JL RTW is running just under $1000, the JL Prestige is $1400, and the EG RTW shoes are around $1095.

Sincerely,

Cravate Royale


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

mafoofan said:


> Jcusey, are you comparing the Edward Greens to Lobb's regular line or their Prestige line?


Both. The only real difference that I can discern between JL Paris's Classic line and their Prestige line is the presence of the beveled waist shoes in the Prestige line. This is a nice feature, to be sure, but it's not worth the upcharge that JL Paris has with these shoes to me. The lasts that are used for the Prestige line shoes (8000 and 7000) are also used on Classic line shoes, and I haven't noticed any real difference in support between these lasts, the other lasts that JL Paris uses, and the lasts that EG uses. As I wrote, EG lasts typically fit my feet better; but that's due to the particular characteristics of my feet, and your mileage may vary. The one argument that trumps all others when it comes to shoes is quality of fit; and if JL Paris shoes fit you better and feel better on your feet, who am I to argue with you?



> Also, there is something to be said for the fact that John Lobb Paris is a much more dependable company than Edward Green, what with its delivery delays, inability to keep vendors stocked, and rumored restructuring of their product lines to include a 'Top Drawer' shoe.


Virtually all of the shoes that I have from both manufacturers are special orders, and I have not noticed that one is speedier or more reliable than the other. I have some special orders from each company arrive very speedily, and I have had some from each company that took forever. My understanding is that EG has had trouble in the past delivering its shoes to its retail outlets on time, but I have not personally seen this recently. Perhaps Tom Park at LeatherSoul, who carries, EG, can comment. The Top Drawer line isn't a rumor: EG has said that they will do it. Whether they do or not remains to be seen. In any event, I don't see why its presence should make EG less attractive, any more than the advent of the Prestige line from JL Paris made it less attractive.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

The existence of a 'Top Drawer' line of shoes in and of itself is not necessarily a negative development. However, my impression of Edward Green has been that the company could be better organized and managed. Not once, but twice, representatives from the company I met at trunk shows lost my foot tracings--thus I was reluctant to order a pair since I have no indication of what size will fit me. Finally I ordered a particular pair, guessing my size, and then months later was informed by the store selling me the shoes that Edward Green had left out a number of shoes that they were supposed to deliver. The shoes would have to take another 2 or more months to make--I gave up and went back to Lobb. From postings on this forum and others, it appears my experience is not wholly anecdotal.

I believe the positive and negative aspects of the new Top Drawer shoes have been already discussed. My major issue is that their advent only introduces another somewhat questionable business development to a situation already evidencing poor management.


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## Bic Pentameter (Jan 12, 2004)

jcusey said:


> The Top Drawer line isn't a rumor: EG has said that they will do it. Whether they do or not remains to be seen. In any event, I don't see why its presence should make EG less attractive, any more than the advent of the Prestige line from JL Paris made it less attractive.


Isetan Men's in Tokyo has several Top Drawer models for comparison next to Middle (?) Drawer models of the same shoe. Isetan listed Top Drawer prices of 230,000 yen, or approximately $2,000. I am not sure if they have started to take orders yet.

Bic


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

$2,000?? What do you get for that price above and beyond the regular line? Wow . . .


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

mafoofan said:


> $2,000?? What do you get for that price above and beyond the regular line? Wow . . .


See about the Top Drawer program, and keep in mind that shoes are significantly more expensive in Japan than here in the US. The price mentioned to medwards was $1600 per pair, which isn't exactly cheap but is significantly less than $2000 per pair.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

I have always found these comparisons difficult. To my mind, the question isn't whether one maker is _better_ than another, they are simply _different_. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. How much these matter really depends on one's personal needs, wants, and values.

Both John Lobb (Paris) and Edward Green make very well-crafted and -- to my eye at least -- very handsome shoes. As has been noted, they do differ in many respects. As has been discussed, they do differ in terms of lasts (which means both the shapes of the shoes, their appearance, and their subsequent fit are different). Any shoe that does not fit you well is a shoe that you should not buy. I personally get a much better fit in a variety of Edward Green sizes than I do with John Lobb, but others might find just the opposite. I also prefer the look of some of the Edward Green lasts, but again this is a personal preference. Edward Green's range of styles is rather classic (some might say traditional) while John Lobb is a bit more varied, some might say eclectic, and some might consider fashion-forward. John Lobb's Prestige line is noted for its beveled waist, something that is not really attained on Edward Green models though I have noticed that recent Edward Green models have been moving in this direction. How important this is to you is again a matter of taste and whether this addition is worth the additional cost. At the same time, Edward Green tends to make a somewhat neater, lighter shoe than John Lobb (when you consider similar models) though there are some very sleek John Lobb models. Much has been made of leathers and finishes. Lobb has some very intriguing colors and it is noted for its museum calf (which happens to be the same as EG's cirrus leather). Edward Green's antiquing and individualized look is one of its hallmarks. I have had very good luck with Edward Green's customer service, but others have found it difficult to find the shoe they are seeking in a timely manner. It may be easier to get immediate results with John Lobb, though individuals with wide or narrow feet might find a lack of shoes in such fittings troublesome. Edward Green's special order program does allow one to put together virtually any of its models, on any appropriate last, in any of its leathers and colors, in virtually any size and fitting. Of course, such order may take time and there is an upcharge for this (though that cost would still bring them in below the cost of JL's Prestige line). There is a link above to Edward Green's Top Drawer program that adds additional possibilities, but at an additional price.

In the end, it is a personal balance between fit, look, and price. The choice is yours.


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## LeatherSOUL (May 8, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Virtually all of the shoes that I have from both manufacturers are special orders, and I have not noticed that one is speedier or more reliable than the other. I have some special orders from each company arrive very speedily, and I have had some from each company that took forever. My understanding is that EG has had trouble in the past delivering its shoes to its retail outlets on time, but I have not personally seen this recently. Perhaps Tom Park at LeatherSoul, who carries, EG, can comment. The Top Drawer line isn't a rumor: EG has said that they will do it. Whether they do or not remains to be seen. In any event, I don't see why its presence should make EG less attractive, any more than the advent of the Prestige line from JL Paris made it less attractive.


I think the time an order takes just depends on what else is going on at the workshop. As John said, I've had orders come in 3 months and some in 8 months. It could be related to the amount of orders at the time.

As far as the Top Drawer program, I do have a pair on order for another forum member who shall go un-named unless he comments for himself. The only information I have is what has been posted on the forums. I am very eagerly awaiting its arrival in a month or two. Pricepoint...in line with what medwards was quoted.


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## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

I agree that these are completely different animals and that both (if they fit you well) deserve a place in a shoephile's wardrobe. 

Lobb continues to push the envelope in design. Though, many of my older JLs are quite conservative and models like City, Avon, Bordor, Portman, Osner, Westminster, Chamboard etc. are similar to their EG counterparts. 

Within the last few years, JL went a different direction, especially with the Prestiege line. Shoes like Sutton, Becketts, Chapel and Luffield are far more "fashion" forward than anything likely to come from Green's workshop.

As for overall quality, I find the finishing of the Green leathers to be ever so slightly superior to JL's Classic line but the I prefer the finishing and sewing of Lobbs as I find it neater and slightly more refined. 

I have two EG Top Drawer shoes due in March and then can do a just and reasoned comparison between them and JL Prestiege.


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

I have 7 EGs but only 1 JL Prestige (the Marston). To my eye, the EGs are superior for the following reasons:

Lasts: The EG lasts (888/82) look much more refined to my eye than the JL lasts (7000/8000)

Colors: EGs crust leathers allow them to do some great antiquing. The museum calf's from JL are nice but as good as the EG shades in my opinion

Flexibility: This is very important to me. EGs amazing MTO program allows me to basically design my own shoe for a reasonable upcharge. JL is nowhere as flexible

Cost: High quality shoes for approximately $1K make sense to me - RTW shoes at $1.5K are edging into Scafora territory

Panzer


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## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

Panzeraxe said:


> Flexibility: This is very important to me. EGs amazing MTO program allows me to basically design my own shoe for a reasonable upcharge. JL is nowhere as flexible
> 
> Cost: High quality shoes for approximately $1K make sense to me - RTW shoes at $1.5K are edging into Scafora territory
> 
> Panzer


Excellent points both, Panzer. Though, I fear, that EG will taking the guts out of the MTO program to increase sales for Top Drawer. Has anyone placed a recent MTO buy and been told that some type of modification or tweak was no longer available that had been previously part of program?

The $$ is also an excellent point with Scafora bespoke starting at $1600 and I believe that Gomez's demi-measure is in this range too.


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

My experiencxe is of 2 EG's but several Lobbs. I find the Lobbs simply look more stylish but this is surely subjective. I think their lines are more varied and the service is better. I cannot think that there is any real difference in the quality but I find the Lobbs are more elegant.

In fact I just picked up a Lobb with a very beautiful marbled effect on the the leather and in a shade of brown that was just right. It is not even a prestige line.


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## TKDKid (Mar 20, 2004)

One thing which I've recently noticed about John Lobb Prestige Line shoes is that the quarters tend to be made from a single piece of leather (where possible) rather than the usual two.

For example, the John Lobb Prestige Line Philip II:



compared with the John Lobb (regular line) City:



or the John Lobb Vintage 2004:



compared with the Edward Green Ladbroke:



I believe this is rarely seen even on bespoke shoes.


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Also, I should add that EGs styles are much more to my liking than JL - some of JLs designs are more trendy than classic, which is not what I prefer when I'm shelling out $$$ for shoes.

In JLs defense, however, I have to admit that the beveling is excellent and far above the EGs. Also, I can't help but feel than my feet feel more firmly ensconced in the JL shoes than the EGs - I don't have much of a shoe vocabulary, but the JLs feel more luxurious when I put them on.

Panzer


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## Puffdaddy (Dec 21, 2006)

Panzeraxe said:


> but the JLs feel more luxurious when I put them on.
> 
> Panzer


I have to agree with you on this point. Lacing up the Lobbs top start a day is akin to lighting up a Cohiba. Every time is a special occasion.


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## MarkusH (Dec 10, 2004)

sclemmons said:


> Who wins and why? I love the EG but I can find the JL more readily. Either has a distinctive look and remarkable quality. I am leaning towards JL. What do you think?


If you plan on wearing the shoes, try them on before buying, and select the better-fitting shoe.

I would be surprised if you do not strongly prefer one of the makers to the other, as the fit is very different.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

TKDKid said:


> One thing which I've recently noticed about John Lobb Prestige Line shoes is that the quarters tend to be made from a single piece of leather (where possible) rather than the usual two.


It depends on the shoe...both in terms of John Lobb and Edward Green.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

TKDKid said:


> One thing which I've recently noticed about John Lobb Prestige Line shoes is that the quarters tend to be made from a single piece of leather (where possible) rather than the usual two.


I'm with TKDKid on this one.

John Lobb had quite a few undivided backs in the last few years, beginning with the 2001(?) Special: 6-eyelet galoshes oxford with the upper section seamless, via whole cuts like 'Jermyn II' or 'Chapel' to the current crop where they use the undivided back as a design feature.

No idea, if the ordinary customer notices, let alone appreciates it. It's quite an expensive way of doing things (more waste).

Just waiting for the JL version of the whole cut without a seam on the back:
https://centipede.web.fc2.com/bjsugolini.html


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

It is certainly true that John Lobb has some very nicely made shoes with undivided backs. But as I said previously, this feature does depend on the shoe and is not universal among JL Paris offerings. Among the Prestige line, there are a good many shoes which do indeed have a full rear seam including (I believe), the Stafford, Westminster, Farndon, Garnier II, Welford, Edward, Foxton, Brooklands, and even the John Lobb 2006 model. Likewise, not all Edward Green models have a full back seam like the image above. The Southwolds that I happen to be wearing today, just have a quarter inch seam at the bottom of the rear for shaping, not because of the joining of two separate pieces of leather. That said, I can see why someone would find the undivided back a appealing detail and there are clearly more JL Paris models that reflect this than EGs.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I prefer EG because I think they look more English. Many JL models look more fashion forward - more like something out of a Santoni or Berluti catalogue, with more than a hint of a pointy snout. The EG lasts by comparison are more elegant. There is also a touch of gaudiness to JLs antiqueing too. They may be made in Northampton but they show a definite French pedigree. 

Unless JL manages to come up with something truly exceptional (which I conceed is quite possible) I would happily never buy another pair again.


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## TKDKid (Mar 20, 2004)

medwards said:


> Likewise, not all Edward Green models have a full back seam like the image above. The Southwolds that I happen to be wearing today, just have a quarter inch seam at the bottom of the rear for shaping, not because of the joining of two separate pieces of leather.


But that's because of EG's use of a one-piece heel counter, which is a separate piece of leather:

- do EG have any models where there's no seam at the heel due to the quarters being made from a single piece of leather?

The Vintage 2006 is a strange one - it looks to me that the quarters are a single piece of leather, but the join is at the bottom of the lacing area rather than at the heel:

- hence the seam at the heel.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Although I have seen and handled the vintage 2006, I can’t remember whether or not there is a back seam. But technically it would be possible to wrap the leather around and join it in the front.

Definitely JL has been exploring the possibilities of seamless designs in the last few years. Maybe that’s their current designer’s pet theme. I’ve never seen an EG shoes without a back seam, unless there is a heel counter. (All EG counters are one-piece, unlike C & J who cut their counters as two pieces.) 

My one and only pair of Lattanzis (a derby/blucher) hasn’t got a back seam. The shoe has no quarters, but ‘a half’.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

bengal-stripe said:


> Just waiting for the JL version of the whole cut without a seam on the back:
> https://centipede.web.fc2.com/bjsugolini.html


Didn't one of the shoemakers posting here once write that that seamless wholecut is inherently unstable and weak because of the degree to which the leather has to be stretched to accomplish it? Still, it is a beautiful shoe.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

I can’t recall that post, but that might well be the case. Until I saw these pictures, I didn’t even know that it was possible.

I remember posting once, that every whole cut needed a seam somewhere, be it at the back or like Jermyn II at the side.


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## von Rothbart (May 17, 2005)

bengal-stripe said:


> Although I have seen and handled the vintage 2006, I can't remember whether or not there is a back seam. But technically it would be possible to wrap the leather around and join it in the front..


Vintage 2006 has a back seam.


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## TKDKid (Mar 20, 2004)

jcusey said:


> Didn't one of the shoemakers posting here once write that that seamless wholecut is inherently unstable and weak because of the degree to which the leather has to be stretched to accomplish it? Still, it is a beautiful shoe.


Would it be possible to add the normal or reinforced lining after the uppers have been stretched around the last and so the lining won't have been weakened by excessive stretching? My thinking is that just cos it's seamless on the outside, it doesn't mean it's seamless on the inside. :icon_smile_big:


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## zjpj (Sep 19, 2006)

VASTLY prefer John Lobb. The 8000 last fits me perfectly, the finishing on the prestige line is wonderful.


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