# Your church, interiors and the mass/service



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

The other thread has now progressed to a stage that has been hinted at in the last day or two i.e. comparisons of church interiors and the type of service. 
So rather than doing that in that thread let's do it here.

Okay, well of course it's really two subjects isn't it? a) Church decor and b) Type of service.

Now we seem to be able to run parallel discussions on other threads, so I see no reason why we can't do that here as well.

Let me start with my slighty humourous ready reckoner of church interiors

Catholic - icons, statues, candles, sacred hearts & virgins
Orthodox - icons, statues, candles, no lights, no pews
Anglican - cherubim,seraphim, old masters, war memorials, battle flags & tombs
Lutheran - one ship hanging from the ceiling, plain white walls

That's based on my observations of all 4 faiths in churches in England, Ireland and Sweden.

I sang in the Lutheran Cathedral Choir a few years ago, just for 2 years, and no matter how many times I went into and still go into the Lutheran Cathedral or any of the other Lutheran churches in town I'm still surprised at the stark plain white walls, the lack of any decoration, apart from the typical ship that hangs in every Swedish church.

That said (now touching on the re-unification subject here a bit now) 3 of the Lutheran churches in my town have got one bit of adornment and it's a large Russian icon. 

Ok, the other thing is that I've noticed over recent years is that the Lutheran church in Sweden continues to tone down the Lutheran bit. -And nowadays in an Anglican and Orthodox style always calls itself in texts the Church of Sweden. A Russian friend of mine, well versed in theology, told me that the Lutheran faith is the closest theologically to the Orthodox, even more so than the Catholic faith (the Filioque gets in the way there doesn't it, not to mention the dates of Easter and Christmas) 
Also we have the Anglican Bishop from Chelmsford visiting the Lutheran cathedral 2 or 3 times a year and presiding over services. 

Mass: I was at High Mass yesterday morning, and it lifts my heart whenever we finish mass with a hymn in Latin, as we did yesterday.
I asked our priest a few weeks ago, if he'd consider holding a whole mass in Latin, he's thinking about it. Our combined mass/psalm books have the order of mass written both in Swedish and Latin! Which I just love!
And there are one or two of us who at that moment in the mass say "Pax Domine" rather than the Swedish version of it which is Kristi Fred (Peace of Christ). 

Also, every mass at the Catholic church in my town is a high mass (because there are only 2 or 3 a week) with all the sung responses from the congregation and an organ. So singing the Gloria,the Agnus Dei and the Paternoster every week is beautiful, albeit in Swedish. Our church is inside an old large mansion house, so the church itself is very small, but very cosy, spiritual and restful. Takes only about 130 people max. Bells & smells :icon_smile_big: Also, at Christmas we had two priests saying mass, our own priest and an Opus Dei priest. Our parish priest is, thank God, very traditional which is in part due to him beng Polish, as is the largest ethnic group of our congregation. The Irish are actually outnumbered by Americans and Canadians! Ghastly!!!!  

So, that's enough about me. 
What about you, is it starkly lit churches with hundreds of people at charismatic happy clappy services OR folk masses with the parish priest on guitar? Or is it like I remember from the Russian Orthodox chruch in London, a really old Anglican church, and only candle light allowed, no pews, every one standing or prone, the candlelight flickering off the sea of icons, and the Metropolitan intoning the mass in Church Russian and the choir and other priests responding, very mysterious, very spiritual, very restful. 

I always go to the Tridentine Mass (which is now permitted again) at the Brompton Oratory when I'm back in London...and stay on at the High Mass (unsung) in English that follows on.


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## welldressedfellow (May 28, 2008)

Not my church (sadly,) but for your viewing pleasure.....



My parish is very high church, but still we have bare white (more of an incense-stained ivory) walls and no icons. Our mass is much like a Roman Catholic mass, and we have the occasional Solemn High Mass. Sadly, aside from special occasions, we use lights. On Christmas Eve SHM, we cut off the lights.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

*Lutherans in the US*

In my experience among Lutherans in the US, I would say that, stereotypically: 
-- Those of Swedish heritage tend to be plainer, the prominent color is white, and the chancel has a statue of Jesus (generally painted white).
-- The ones of Norwegian heritage tend to be busier, the prominent "color" is natural wood, and the chancel has an altar painting.

I suspect these motifs reflect what the Churches of Sweden and Norway were like in the 19th Century, when the emigrants left for Nord Amerika. Of course, modern architecture and interior design, especially since Vatican II, is marked different.

I've seen only a few ships hanging from the ceiling. But, yeah, no war memorials (not in the church proper, maybe over at the parish hall), no plaques honoring who gave what, no statues, maybe flags, not a lot of candles.

When visiting in "The Old Countries" (e.g., Scandinavia), my impression of many of the older churches is they "feel Catholic" to my American experience. I suspect they didn't change everything with the Protestant Reformation, and that reflects their prior Roman heritage.


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## boatshoe (Oct 30, 2008)

Here's a nice case study for you. Here is a parish I sometimes attend when I am on Long Island. They have two church buildings, the original church building, dedicated in 1897, is now called the "chapel." It sees limited use, hosting one mass per Sunday, as well as weddings on request.



















The other building is the new church, which was built in 1968.










Depressed yet?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Trinity Lutheran in St. Louis. A friend of mine served his vicarage here.


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## welldressedfellow (May 28, 2008)

Forgot to mention the altar; wood with a beautiful reredos featuring the Holy Spirit, Agnus Dei, and grapes/wheat. Three steps leading to the altar, and a communion rail. A gold altar cross (there is a crucifix in the chapel) and of course the candles. There is an aumbry on the side of the sanctuary. No statues, memorials, etc.. We have flags, Christian and U.S. Modest pulpit off to the right (when facing the altar) with a small lectern to the left. Traditionally styled chancel; choir loft on either side, organ console to the right, with speaking pipes exposed on either side, plus the exposed choir division in the back of the nave. 

The building itself is rather plain, in an elegant sort of way. It is in cruciform.


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## welldressedfellow (May 28, 2008)

Very beautiful!



Laxplayer said:


> Trinity Lutheran in St. Louis. A friend of mine served his vicarage here.


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## RedBluff (Dec 22, 2009)

Ephiphany Church in San Francisco.




I went to school here too and served as an alter boy.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

welldressedfellow said:


> Not my church (sadly,) but for your viewing pleasure.....
> 
> My parish is very high church, but still we have bare white (more of an incense-stained ivory) walls and no icons. Our mass is much like a Roman Catholic mass, and we have the occasional Solemn High Mass. Sadly, aside from special occasions, we use lights. On Christmas Eve SHM, we cut off the lights.


I'm fascinated by that Old Lutheran Cemetery. Being the largest Lutheran country I suppose the Germans were the largest influx of Lutherans into America, or?

I'l tell you an interesting story about a cemetery in another thread I'm planning.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

boatshoe said:


>


Now, that looks like a nice, typical 19th c early 20th c church in an Irish rural town.



boatshoe said:


>


And that looks like a typical *new* church in an Irish rural town.

For example the one in Knock, Co. Mayo. Many like it's mixing of the old with the new...I'm not so sure. 
https://www.bamjam.net/Ireland/images/Knock2.jpg


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Ok, so we're doing church architecture as well then:icon_smile_wink:

So that'll be:

a, church buildings
b, interiors, fixtures & fittings
c, type of service

:icon_smile_big:


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

On my way back from Discount Shoes in Strutton Ground, I popped into Westminster Cathedral.

More inside than I expected(Lent maybe) and also something of a tourist attraction.

Good cafe in the basement. Formica tables, inexpensive. Tea, buns, jacket potatoes, roast dinners. Not a homeless shelter either - as someone at work later suggested. :icon_smile:

I have not been into St Pauls cathedral since they started charging. We went into Lincoln Cathedral on a Sunday to avoid entrance fees. I reckon we are paying for it through taxes anyway.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> And that looks like a typical *new* church in an Irish rural town.
> 
> For example the one in Knock, Co. Mayo. Many like it's mixing of the old with the new...I'm not so sure.
> https://www.bamjam.net/Ireland/images/Knock2.jpg


Knock has some serious Holy Water pumping facilities outside which the photo does not capture. People were filling up two litre pop bottles. A protestant friend decided to apply some to his sore leg....


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

My church....exterior shot. 



Interior shot


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

boatshoe said:


> Here's a nice case study for you. Here is a parish I sometimes attend when I am on Long Island. They have two church buildings, the original church building, dedicated in 1897, is now called the "chapel." It sees limited use, hosting one mass per Sunday, as well as weddings on request.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very. I am not a fan of the newer churches. The older ones, when maintained, can be much more beautiful and inspiring.

Is that St. Dominic's in Oyster Bay?


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

*Maintenance vs Mission*

The bugaboo with many a congregational facility is the rising cost of operating and maintaining the plant and property, combined with declining income (often a function of aging or folks moving out).

Older churches can be especially costly. And unappealing, given their heating and air conditioning, or lack there of. Sometimes, the congregation is forced to decide between maintenance of the facility versus mission and ministry.

A common challenge around here is many congregations expanded their facilities in the second half of the 20th Century, only now to find all that growth has moved elsewhere. Now they're saddled with a facility much larger than they need, and at a time when that facility is needing structural rework.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> On my way back from Discount Shoes in Strutton Ground, I popped into Westminster Cathedral.
> 
> More inside than I expected(Lent maybe) and also something of a tourist attraction.


Did you go up the tower at all? Every time I went into Westminster Cathedral, I looked at the tower stairs and the tour times and always said to myself, "Nah...I'll do it next time" But I never did.

I still really like the alternating white and red brick in the construction. very un-English. Always reminded me of something one might see in Bulgaria or Turkey. I think I read somewhere years ago that it was supposed to have some kind of Antiochian significance.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> Knock has some serious Holy Water pumping facilities outside which the photo does not capture. People were filling up two litre pop bottles. A protestant friend decided to apply some to his sore leg....


Oh yea, when I was there in 96, it was very much the tourist trap, with the Holy Water & the shop selling all sorts of relics, icons, novenas and cures. There was even this quite famous woman, Christina something, she was part mystic, part healer, and claims to have had a visitation from the Virgin Mary. Anyway, there she was in one of the small chapels outside the main church hearing requests for prayers and pleas for and from the ill and suffering. I stayed and listened for about 90 seconds before I realised what was going on. I may have been an atheist back then, but my Irish lapsed-Catholic roots still baulked at this "side show".


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

This was the church I went to on a Sunday with my mum and then of course on my own until I was about 17.
I remember from primary school once we even visited the Priory and ate a simple lunch with the Carmelite brothers.

And this is the street view of the church Our Lady of Victories in Kensignton High Street, which governed my primary school, nearby, of the same name.
Rather odd, in that the modern world has encroached on it more and more, with shops in fornt of the front church wall. That said, there have been shops there for 60 or 70 years. I made my First Confession, First Holy Communion and Confirmation here. The last two followed by lovely parties in the Church crypt, which is in fact a large function hall that also puts on school plays, bazaars, dances and other activities. 
https://www.ourladyofvictories.org.uk/photos/index/P2.jpg


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

The entire white ground floor of this corner building is the Catholic church I go to today. 
https://karlstadhistoria.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/katolska-kyrkan.jpg
The very corner is the church itself. The rest consists is the parish centre, meeting/class rooms a dining room and the sanctuary. The priest lives in the flat on the top floor. 
The only difference today is that there is a sign bearing a cross outside on the front wall. That stucco, that looks white is now a cream/beige colour, it may have been back then as well. I've never seen an old colour photo of the building. 
This picture is only from the early 1900s. Up to the 1960s my home town in Sweden looked much older, like it was stuck in a previous century.
They only started modernising the town in the early 70s.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> On my way back from Discount Shoes in Strutton Ground.


Glad to hear that it is still there. On my way from St. James tube station to Horseferry Road Magistrates court I always went down Strutton Ground. And then always took the opportunity, when the need arose, to go in and buy a new pair of shoes or boots for police work.He used to do some wonderful, reasonably priced, Northampton made shoes, leather soles and toe-caps, which we always got a police discount on. You see, he had both the passing and local police trade, as he had both those en route to and from court, and New Scotland Yard up on the corner of Victoria Street with loads of coppers coming down the Ground for lunch. Plus Rochester Row nick a few hundred yards away and the Mounted Branch in Vincent Square at the back of the nick and the Traffic Wardens in Peel Street. Plus a TA unit also on Horseferry Road.

Is the old fashioned chippy still there opposite the shoe shop? Or not, probably a kebab shop now is it?


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Is the old fashioned chippy still there opposite the shoe shop? Or not, probably a kebab shop now is it?


The chippy is still there. I was wondering about it. Masters fish shop up near the Old Vic at Waterloo is the best in that vicinity.


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## boatshoe (Oct 30, 2008)

KenR said:


> Very. I am not a fan of the newer churches. The older ones, when maintained, can be much more beautiful and inspiring.
> 
> Is that St. Dominic's in Oyster Bay?


That is correct.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> The chippy is still there. I was wondering about it.


Well it was good old fashioned, very nice verytasty cod & chips last time I was in there.

The Grove Fish Bar just beside Ladbroke Grove station also does some lovely traditional fish & chips. Well worth making the detour to for lunch if you're doing Portobello on a Saturday morning. I last ate there in June last year & the portions are still ginormous! :icon_smile:


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## Salvatore123 (Jan 11, 2009)

*I am lucky*

In additional to having Mass said each Sunday in Latin, following the 1961 ritual under Summorum Pontificum, Mass is said in as traditional a Church as one can get. The exterior is the old time "red brick", designed in the shape of a cross when viewed from above, and was built with the altar facing East.

The sanctuary (separating the priest from the people by a traditional brass/iron altar rail from which we receive Holy Communion in a kneeling position) looks as follows:

The front of the Church, which is unmistakably Catholic:

_La Pieta_ at the entrace to the cemetary:

I could not describe the interior any better than the following. Note the significant influence of European design and sacramentals. This, no doubt, came from France and surrounding areas via the banishment of the Acadian people to Louisiana by the British:

*The Main Altar*

The main altar, of Baroque Architecture, was hand carved in Belgium and brought to the United States in 1893 for exhibition at the Chicago World Exposition. Rev. Father Forge, who was pastor at St. John Church in Lafayette, the present Cathedral parish, purchased the altar. In 1936, new altars were obtained for the Cathedral and Bishop Jules B. Jeanmard donated the Baroque altar to Saint Peter Parish. In 1949, Msgr. Wassler restored the altar to its present condition, stripping off its many coats of paint and sealing the natural wood. Later, when the Second Vatican Council revised the liturgy which called for the priest to face the congregation for parts of the Holy Mass, the lower portion of the altar was removed from the back and brought forward, without destroying the original visual effect. The side altars, which originally complimented the main altar, had been given else where. Msgr. Wassler was able to locate one of the side altars, which is now the present Saint Joseph Altar. The altar of the Blessed Virgin Mary was constructed to resemble the other. 
*The Ceiling Beams*

The ceiling beams that adorn the church were painted by Michael Muller of Colmar, France. He had come here as a student to study one year at the University of Southwestern Louisiana, now the University of Louisiana, in Lafayette. The "Praying Hands" is the design of the center beams in the sanctuary. On the other beams of the sanctuary he created designs using the names and symbols of the prophets. All other designs on the beams are original. Muller was not able, in his limited stay in the country, to complete the painting of all the beams in the main body of the Church. 
*The Paintings*

The paintings in the sanctuary, the nave, and in the main body of the church are reproductions of famous works of art in European Cathedrals and museums. These reproductions were also painted by Michael Muller. The two paintings in the sanctuary are Muller's copies of the works of Mathias Grunewald, "The Annunciation" and "The Birth of Jesus." The painting located in the center of the main body of the church, "The Crowning of the Blessed Virgin Mary," is also a Grunewald reproduction. The Grunewald originals are housed in Le Musee de Colmar in Colmar, France. The paintings above the center aisle are representations of 13th Century stained glass windows in the Cathedral of Chartres in France. These particular windows were chosen to be reproduced for their magnificent colors as well as their subjects. Two paintings, outside the sanctuary are also by Muller. On the right is "The Visitation" and on the left is a painting by Muller based on a composite photograph by local photographer Calvin Blue. In this painting, Saint Anne is pictured with the Madonna and Child along side the Mt. Carmel Order whose religious sisters pioneered catholic education in Saint Peter Parish. Also included in the paintings are Bishop Jules B. Jeanmard, the first bishop of Lafayette who was raised in Carencro, and Msgr. Wassler who was the pastor responsible for the beautification of the church.
*The Altar Rail*

The altar rail, which was used in past years to receive Holy Communion, was made in France and is of hand-forged iron designed by Joseph Muller, an architect of Colmar, France. The top of the railing is covered with a plate of solid brass.
*The Stained Glass Windows*

The windows, among the finest examples of stained glass in the United States, were made in Colmar, France. Specifications were sent to Joseph Muller who supervised the project in France. Most of the windows were designed by Robert Gall and the project executed by Leon Kempf, both being of Colmar. Because of some dissatisfaction, Mr. Gall quit the project before completion and another artist, Antoine Heitzmann, designed the rest of the windows. Each window portrays a major event in the life of Saint Peter.
*The Pew Ends
*

The pew ends were designed by Mgsr. Wassler and hand-carved by Mr. Ludwig Kienenger, a Bavarian woodcarver near Dallas, Texas. Designed in 1966 and 1967, they depict a historical record of the families of Saint Peter Church. Msgr. Wassler used family crests in the designs and, where none existed, he created them using ancestral occupations and family histories. Pew ends for one hundred families, eleven priests, and three bishops were designed and executed, no two pew ends being alike. The pew ends were made of red gum and were milled by Bill's Mill Works of the local area.
*The Stations of the Cross
*

The stations, depicting fourteen stations in the Passion of Our Lord Jesus, are linden wood hand carved by Joseph Stempfel of Colmar, France. These carvings were the last projects in the restoration project of the parish.
*The Pipe Organ
*

The organ, a fifteen rank electropneumatic instrument was built in German Baroque style. The components were purchased in southern Germany in 1966, and the organ was built by Otto Hoffman, an American organ architect. There are two other Hoffman organs in this area of the country, one at Our Lady of Fatima Catholic Church in Lafayette and another at Saint Mary Magdalen Catholic Church in Abbeville.
*The Church Bells
*

The large bell in the belfry was obtained in 1893. It was named "Francis-Fabien-Pierre": Francis for Archbishop Francis Janssens of New Orleans [the Diocese of Lafayette had not yet been erected]; Fabien for Rev. Father Fabien Laforet who was then the pastor of Saint Peter, and Pierre for Mr. Pierre Cormier [donor of the Church property]. The H. Struckstede Bell Foundry, Co. of St. Louis, Missouri, cast the bell on May 18, 1893. The church also has a set of four electronic bells which came from Versailles, France. The tones of the bells were blended to that of the large bell. In 1994, the electronic bell system was struck by lightening on two occasions and an electronic bell system by Mass-Rowe was installed in early 1995. This system uses the existing true bronze bells and the technology of compact disc digital recordings to ring on the hour, the Angelus, times for Holy Mass, and traditional hymns.
*The Baptismal Chapel
*

The large stained glass window depicts The Annunciation. The Baptismal font in this chapel is of French marble and copper bas-relief. Above the front hangs a wooden canopy, called a baldocinno, which was originally over the altar in the chapel of the Academy of the Sacred Heart in Grand Coteau. In 1996, during the restoration of the Baptismal Chapel, it was taken down, restored, and once more securely hung over the font. The antique Crucifix on the Chapel wall was added at this time. The antique cross, of hand carved walnut from Holland, was acquired from a Lafayette antique dealer in 1996. The corpus, which was originally set on a plain wooden cross, was purchased from the Saint Mary Orphanage when it closed in 1972. Combining these antiques provides a beautiful centerpiece for the Chapel wall.

Regards,

Sam


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

tents and snakes :devil:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Salvatore123 said:


> In additional to having Mass said each Sunday in Latin, following the 1961 ritual under Summorum Pontificum, Mass is said in as traditional a Church as one can get. The exterior is the old time "red brick", designed in the shape of a cross when viewed from above, and was built with the altar facing East.
> 
> The sanctuary (separating the priest from the people by a traditional brass/iron altar rail from which we receive Holy Communion in a kneeling position) looks as follows:
> 
> ...


Wow! Sam, what can I say, more than, WOW! I am truly jealous. I only get to go to mass in a church as beautiful and spiritual as that when I'm in Stockholm or back in Ireland or London. You're a lucky man to have that nearby. Even more jealous of the fact that you can go to the Latin mass every Sunday. Again, only when I'm in London or Ireland. 
Just got home from 11 am High Mass about 15 minutes ago, at least we finish with a Latin psalm.


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## turban1 (May 29, 2008)

*mayfair*

mayfair, farm street, jesuit, pugin altar piece, latin mass, full choir.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Earl - why leave out Reformed? Reformed church belong to the largest Protestant Church Family in the world! ( The World Alliance of Reformed Churches)

Certainly our interiors are plain - like your Swedish Lutheran experience but we have a very beautiful stained glass window at the front of our church and some lovely embroidered hangings around the church which enhance the worship experience.

Our partner church in Germany which is Lutheran/Reformed United ( Evangelische Uniert) also has a similar architecture though in a more modern building - they too have a beautiful stained glass window and an inspiring Abendsmaltisch ( Communion Table) beautifully designed in keeping with the more modern architecture.

Like you I prefer older church buildings but modern ones can be well done. Sadly the modern one in the photos at the beginning of the post is one I do not like!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Leather man said:


> Earl - why leave out Reformed?


Hi L-man, I don't know what you're referring to but I haven't left out anything. The thread is intended for all religions and that includes all denominations of Christianity.

If you're referring to my ready-reckoner then that is based on the 4 strands of Christianity with which I am familiar. Apart from the Lutheran Church I know next to nothing about the other Protestant faiths........................Other than that you're all Godless heathens and you'll all burn in hell for eternity :icon_smile_wink::icon_smile_big:

Leatherman, you're more than welcome here sir.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

turban1 said:


> mayfair, farm street, jesuit, pugin altar piece, latin mass, full choir.


Now that's what I like!!! Been there. Love it!:icon_smile:


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Hi L-man, I don't know what you're referring to but I haven't left out anything. The thread is intended for all religions and that includes all denominations of Christianity.
> 
> If you're referring to my ready-reckoner then that is based on the 4 strands of Christianity with which I am familiar. Apart from the Lutheran Church I know next to nothing about the other Protestant faiths........................Other than that you're all Godless heathens and you'll all burn in hell for eternity :icon_smile_wink::icon_smile_big:
> 
> Leatherman, you're more than welcome here sir.


:icon_smile_big:ic12337:

By Reformed I mean reformation churchs that are not Lutheran - Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Dutch Reformed, Reformierte Kirche( Deutschland) etc etc. Churches in other words that owe their heritage to John Calvin rather than Martin Luther - although in fact Reformed churches were influenced greatly by Luther. I belong to the United Reformed Church here in the UK and our sister church is the Church of Scotland.


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## welldressedfellow (May 28, 2008)

And you're all Godless idolators. :icon_smile_big: Seriously, I long for unity between our churches.



Earl of Ormonde said:


> Hi L-man, I don't know what you're referring to but I haven't left out anything. The thread is intended for all religions and that includes all denominations of Christianity.
> 
> If you're referring to my ready-reckoner then that is based on the 4 strands of Christianity with which I am familiar. Apart from the Lutheran Church I know next to nothing about the other Protestant faiths........................_Other than that you're all Godless heathens and you'll all burn in hell for eternity_ :icon_smile_wink::icon_smile_big:
> 
> Leatherman, you're more than welcome here sir.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

welldressedfellow said:


> And you're all Godless idolators. :icon_smile_big: Seriously, I long for unity between our churches.


:icon_smile:


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## welldressedfellow (May 28, 2008)

Just making sure you know; that was a lampoon of the old way of thinking.



Earl of Ormonde said:


> :icon_smile:


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## Salvatore123 (Jan 11, 2009)

*From the mouth of a babe*

My youngest child (a son - we have four children, 3 boys and 1 girl) had the opportunity to visit a Southern Baptist church last year.

Without ANY prompting from me or anyone else in my family, the FIRST thing he said after being told he could not keep talking quite as loud as he had been because we were in "church":

"If we are in Church, where's Jesus and the cross?"

Having married a former Southern Baptist (who, without ANY prompting by me - to me, such a thing is a personal matter - converted to Catholicism), I had to "endure" the endless snide remarks about Catholics and what we believed (mostly from people who had no idea that I was Catholic). Yet, this particular "church":

1. Refuses to admit blacks
2. Has absolutely NO religious "items" on display in the church - in place of a cross, they have a painted picture (it looked like one of those old "paint by numbers" kit) of a meadown with a stream
3. They do not have ANY service on Christmas day
4. And - get this - they actually CANCEL their Sunday service if Christmas happens to fall on a Sunday

And I had to listen to people tell me that I worship statues . . . 

Go figure . . .


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Salvatore123 said:


> My youngest child (a son - we have four children, 3 boys and 1 girl) had the opportunity to visit a Southern Baptist church last year.
> 
> Without ANY prompting from me or anyone else in my family, the FIRST thing he said after being told he could not keep talking quite as loud as he had been because we were in "church":
> 
> ...


pts 2-4 are just quirky. Point 1 is *idolatrous racism and anti- Christian!* ( I use the word idolatrous advisedly - because it is raising race as an issue above Christ and his teaching that we are one.)


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Salvatore123 said:


> Yet, this particular "church":
> 
> 1. Refuses to admit blacks


Is that a historic thing ? In other words do blacks not go there because of separation in the past; or would they bar or eject a black who turned up at a service nowadays ?


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## Salvatore123 (Jan 11, 2009)

*Blacks are REFUSED admittance*

except in limited circumstances, such as for funerals for people well-known in the community.

This is not second-hand or hearsay - I know this for a fact.

When I once asked why the church had no black members, I was told "they have their church, we have our church."

No kidding . . .

I don't think most people realize that before the Civil War, only one major Baptist "Church" existed in America.

The Southern Baptists "broke away" (even this is not entirely accurate, as all Baptist churches are technically autonomous) after northern Baptist 
churches began incorporating/accepting blacks into their congregations. In other words, the Southern Baptist Church arose from the ashes of the South after the Civil War.

Just look at a Southern Baptist service on TV - it will very likely be either all white or all black.

There is the Southern Baptist Convention, but it is really only a loosely collective group. Each Church is entirely independent of the other.

One of the most infamous incidents in the South concerned a political leader in Plaquemines Parish in Louisiana: Leander Perez. Perez ruled his parish with an iron fist, from the days of Huey Long until his death in the 1960's. Perez was predominantly Spanish by heritage, and thus a Catholic. But because of his support of the Dixiecrat Party, Strom Thurmond's run for the presidency, segregation, Governor Wallace's run for the presidency, etc., he was excommunicated by the Catholic Church.

Just think about this: I was told by a family member on my wife's side of the family that I would go to Hell for "worshipping" the Blessed Mother, but that person said he "knew" he was already saved, and that God did not intend for blacks and whites to "intermingle" either in school, church, or relationships.

Pretty sad . . .

P.S. If you watch the movie Glory, you will get an inkling of the racism present even in the North leading up to the Civil War. Even today, I have black friends with whom I went to school who have told me that they experienced racism FAR worse in northern states than in the south. It is one thing to SAY one is for equality, it is quite another for one to live amongst, dine with, or worship with blacks.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Salvatore123 said:


> P.S. If you watch the movie Glory, you will get an inkling of the racism present even in the North leading up to the Civil War. Even today, I have black friends with whom I went to school who have told me that they experienced racism FAR worse in northern states than in the south. It is one thing to SAY one is for equality, it is quite another for one to live amongst, dine with, or worship with blacks.


You ever listened to the Randy Newman song, _********_? If not, you should.


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## Salvatore123 (Jan 11, 2009)

*"Wrong side of town"*

I will readily admit that in many southern cities, you have "white areas" and "black areas", but not NEARLY as demarcated as in the large northern and western cities.

Harlem in New York begins at 110th street. The great black musician Bobby Womack had a hit song in the 70's called "Across 110th street", which was also the "theme" song for the Quentin Tarantino movie "Jackie Brown". Check out those lyrics.

When Martin Luther King, Jr. was killed, the South didn't burn - Watts, Detroit, Cleveland, and other western and northern cities burned.

The South is a sociologist's "heaven" as far as studying the interaction between blacks and whites. Many from other parts of the nation and even the world simply cannot get a handle on how the South manages to "keep it together".

This reminds me of a subject that I will begin in another thread.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

ksinc said:


> tents and snakes :devil:


I'll say a prayer to St. Patrick for you, he'll help you with the vipers!:icon_smile_wink:
As for the tents I'll pray to the god of the winds, that'll clear them :icon_smile_wink:


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