# Trad heresy?



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I made three purchases this past week. Maybe the best pair of khakis I presently own, including the Bill's; maybe the beefiest, baggiest oxford cloth shirt I've worn in years, and, after one wash-dry cycle, noticeably superior to even the Mercer; and what appears to be one of the better looking (and made) pair of tassel loafers I've seen and/or worn in a while. Really exceptional stuff.

All the same label. All from their '06 stock. Care to guess the maker/designer? You may be surprised, and I may have to start wearing the Polo-RL pony/player emblem with something resembling pride.

-Harris


----------



## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Have you been reading Savanarola again? You're not going to try and talk us into throwing our Bills and Press into the fire are you? LOL
Cheers


----------



## Foghorn (Feb 2, 2005)

Harris,
POLO?
Regards,
Foghorn


----------



## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I made three purchases this past week. Maybe the best pair of khakis I presently own, including the Bill's; maybe the beefiest, baggiest oxford cloth shirt I've worn in years, and, after one wash-dry cycle, noticeably superior to even the Mercer; and what appears to be one of the better looking (and made) pair of tassel loafers I've seen and/or worn in a while. Really exceptional stuff.
> 
> ...


You're kidding. I thought you despised the short collar on the RLBD. Also, don't you have to have the pre-hemmed bottom let out and then redone since you wear cuffs? I would think for me, I may run into trouble not having enough material for cuffs. (I am 6'1"). Hmmm......Maybe they have a new OCBD. Which loafer?


----------



## DownSouth (Jun 30, 2005)

I recently purchased an OCBD by Ralph Lauren Polo. The blue label.
It is the first RL oxford cloth, long sleeved shirt I've owned.

The shirt is comfortable and wears great. BUT......
I am disappointed with the collar.
It is so short there is no roll at all.

Has anyone else been disappointed with this aspect of the RL Polo oxford cloth buttondown?


----------



## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

No one expects the Trad Inquisition!


----------



## jasonpraxis (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DownSouth_
> 
> Has anyone else been disappointed with this aspect of the RL Polo oxford cloth buttondown?


I bought my first (and last) Polo OCBD several years ago; it has held up pretty well. It's now consigned to weekend duty, and yes, the collar is short, as are the cuffs (a noticeable 3/8" smaller than the Brooks Brothers model I've got on today).

Harris, I'm in need of a new pair of khakis myself. What is the model name of your new pair? Can you offer a quick review: weight, rise, fullness of cut, and so on?


----------



## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Maybe you should trade the Volvo in for a Jag, while you're at it.


----------



## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by LongWing_
> 
> Maybe you should trade the Volvo in for a Jag, while you're at it.


LW
I think this may be some sort of 'Southern Conspiracy' 
Cheers


----------



## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Harris, you've got some explaining to do. First of all, what were even doing so near RL stuff that you could read the sizes on the tags? Next you're going to be claiming that the devil made you do it. 

I knew it meant trouble when the Trads got our own forum. We're all in it together, but you can't expect word of this not leaking out. Listen, let's circle our wagons and don't let the guys in the Fashion Forum find out. This could undermine the whole concept of Trad. I mean, what happens when Trad is no longer Trad?


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by LongWing_
> 
> Maybe you should trade the Volvo in for a Jag, while you're at it.


Longwing, I have nothing against the old XJ6's. One of my college girlfriends owned and drove one. British racing green, tan leather interior. Classy gal, classic car.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

I like the cloth RL uses in his OCBDs very much--nice and substantial, and it rumples well.

The collars are a bit short, but sometimes I'm in the mood for that. They work very well with a bow tie.

Now I want to check out those chinos.


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> I like the cloth RL uses in his OCBDs very much--nice and substantial, and it rumples well.
> 
> ...


The chinos kick you-know-what. Simply put: superb.


----------



## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Harris, thanks for the report.

To further my never-ending search for the perfect khakis, could you report on the rise of the GI pants? The ones on the polo website say they are "mid low-rise" which would not be good for me.

I am really surprised about the oxford, since the ones I had 15 years ago were really poor quality and I swore never to purchase anymore from RL. Times change.

Thanks.


----------



## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*Harris, you knew you would stir things up with your post, didn't you? Questions:*

1. How does the length of the collar point compare to those on, say, a Brooks OCBD? Can you measure it and report? I have a RL OCBD and the shirt is nice enough, in terms of cloth and fabrication, but there is not getting around the fact that the collar is shorter than I think it should be... So, anything you can do to clear this up would be appreciated.

2. About the chinos--do they have one of those typical RL tags on the back with the RL name? Otherwise, I'm intrigued.

3. How would you compare the fit of the Darlton to that of Alden? You mention you went up a half size--was this a compromise or are you, no kidding, really satisfied...

Thanks,

Markus


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Markus_
> 
> *Harris, you knew you would stir things up with your post, didn't you? Questions:*
> 
> ...


Markus,

1. The OCBD to which I'm referring is the "Big Oxford," which is different from the basic Yarmouth. Fuller, baggier fit, and the collars are, according to my measuring tape, precisely the same length as the BB OCBD's circa 1990. The oxford cloth is a thick, 2-ply material. Substantial.

2. Yes, the G.I. chino does feature a Polo-RL label above the back right pocket.

3. The Darlton fits nicely. The vamp is just as high (which I like) as the Alden tassel, and--again with another mind-blowing revelation--it features something that I found lacking on/with the Alden tassel: it's double soled. Add to that the fact that it's the dark brown shell cordovan--a much richer color than #8--and it's easy for me to say that I'm pleased. Finally, the toe is slightly rounder than the Alden tassels, which I prefer.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

Harris,
What specific model is the OCBD? Is it just the standard shorter-collar one?

I've considering buying this one in the pink university stripe, only because no one makes an OCBD in that color anymore.
https://www.polo.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2135775&cp=1760781.1760814&parentPage=family

Green one's nice too, despite the logo, which I generally avoid. Although, there are a few ponies here and there in my wardrobe.


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by sunnisalafi_
> 
> Harris,
> What specific model is the OCBD? Is it just the standard shorter-collar one?
> ...


I prefer what used to be called the "Big Oxford" but which is now called the "Big Shirt." 
https://www.polo.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1784757&cp=1760781.1760814&parentPage=family


----------



## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

I have memories of college girls wearing that candy stripped polo with heavy, heavy starch. My favorite girls were the smaller breasted cuties sans bra...with two buttons unbuttoned. Thanks, Harris for jolting that memory out of the corner of my hedonistic brain. Man, I loved that look.


----------



## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Could someone post a link to the GI Pants? I can't seem to find them on the Polo website. Thanks.

Trip


----------



## stanshall (Apr 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I'm going to blow your mind again. Sit down for this one.
> 
> ...


This is good openmindedness about the subtle darts, much more important to me too are soft natural shoulders and most crucially of course fit and ease of wearing.

It is fatiguing to wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes. As to the two or three button issue, whatever looks best on the wearer would be better, I think we'd agree, bearing in mind that 2-button Andover JFK cut and high-roll 3-button both exist within the slowly but nevertheless evolving tradition.

I only have one logoed Polo item, a navy blue longtail tennis shirt in a thick, soft fabric. I used to have a similar shirt from the old Brooks. This three-year-old Polo (not made in the USA, unfortunately) flat out blows away my old Brooks fave as well as all my current usual suspect tennis shirts, and, though it makes me compromise a bit, I'd buy more of this particular Polo shirt if I ever saw it again, logo or not, USA-made or not. And the other few Polo items I have, including a fine duffle bag, have stood the test of time and proven themselves worthy.


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> ...I prefer what used to be called the "Big Oxford" but which is now called the "Big Shirt." https://www.polo.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1784757&cp=1760781.1760814&parentPage=family


I'm sure they're great, but that logo -- THAT LOGO!

DocD


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I hardly ever see the logo anymore. True.


----------



## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

My RL polo has the logo discretely down on the left front tail, where it is invisible, once the shirt is tucked in.

Markus


----------



## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

Many aren't aware Brooks is selling the red candy stripe again. I know it has only been available in blue for the last couple years, but the red is back again. (on the website too) Reg. oxford. Not the non-iron crap.


----------



## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Harris, Come on, you are just incorporating more variety into your tradly wardrobe. Nothing can be more tradly than the Alden #8. We can always "agree to disagree" on AAAC. That's what makes it fun. Now, check out that red "candy strip" at Brooks. It is back on the shelves. 
All the best, 
Joe


----------



## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Markus_
> 
> My RL polo has the logo discretely down on the left front tail, where it is invisible, once the shirt is tucked in.
> 
> Markus


That is the difference between the old "Big Oxford" with the logo on the tail, hidden, and the newer "Big Shirt" where the logo is on the pocket. Beggars cant be choosers, but I do like the pocket.


----------



## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

I purchased a pair of GI khakis last year, with pheasants embroidered on them. Wish I had gotten the plain khakis. They were pre-hemmed. Could these be the same fit?

As for the blazer, I have a 2 button model in the doeskin I purchased on Ebay a couple years ago. Didnt know what they had. I stumbled upon it by accident. [}] As its only a size 48, rather than my current 52, its a good reason to diet and exercise! 

Harris, dont you have a wide foot? I may grab the Darlton, if going up one size will make enough width difference. More info please!


----------



## boatshoes (Aug 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like the logo is on the pocket which may make removal quite easy.


----------



## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> [
> the Polo-RL pony/player emblem with something resembling pride.
> 
> -Harris


--I have a couple of the big RL ocbd-( r'cd as well intended gifts) and a brown/green gingham I guess- which have held up(sadly) longer than B2. I do miss the pocket though-but as you pointed out Brooks didn't add pocket until c. 1965??-pants i tried on -didnt buy fabric was hefty--Harris may have a point--


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Here's yet another example of Polo-RL making and selling an item that I've been seeking for a long time without success. When I stumbled upon these 100% (NON-NON-IRON! Are you listening, Brooks?) oxford cloth pajamas, I knew I had to invest. Tons of broadcloth pajamas out there, but it's hard as hell to find oxford cloth pajamas. (Listening, Brooks?)

Yet again, Polo-RL reaches back into the trad archives to find and then replicate an item well worth replicating. These remind me of my father's 100% oxford cloth cotton pajamas that featured white (not blue) piping. Very old school.

Kudos to Polo-RL, logo or no logo.

https://www.polo.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1929555&cp=1760781.1766305&parentPage=family

https://www.polo.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1929554&cp=1760781.1766305&parentPage=family

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> % (NON-NON-IRON! Are you listening, Brooks?) oxford cloth pajamas, I knew I had to invest. Tons of broadcloth pajamas out there, but it's hard as hell to find oxford cloth pajamas. (Listening, Brooks?)
> 
> Yet again, Polo-RL reaches back into the trad archives to find and then replicate an item well worth replicating. These remind me of my father's 100% oxford cloth cotton pajamas that featured white (not blue) piping. Very old school.


You may try calling the Andover Shop in Cambridge --- last time I was there they had plenty of oxford cloth and pinpoint oxford cloth pajamas. In white and blue. Albeit with navy piping. Very reasonable too.


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Horace, with due respect to the folks in Cambridge, if The Andover Shop is fine with charging $900 for an off-the-rack tweed sportcoat, I can't imagine what they would charge for oxford cloth pajamas. Cheers, Harris


----------



## Mike C. (Feb 8, 2006)

This was the exact thing I was wearing today. RL OCBD, GI Chino, LL Bean Maine Hunting Boot, 1" Alligator strap w/silver engine-turn buckle. Very unconscienciously trad of me...

Edit: In the summer I wear this same look, just with off-white Jack Purcell's.


----------



## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> This "heresy" harkens back to another (similar) heresy I committed a year or so ago when I compared my Polo-RL shetland crewnecks with my Andover Shop, Press, and McGeorge shetlands. The hands-down winner in terms of fit and weight of material: Polo-RL.
> 
> ...


Were your PRL shetlands made in Hong Kong or Scotland? The model for Polo shetlands were the brushed ones made by Drumohr (Robertson) of Scotland for the old line trad shops like Andover. Earlier PRL were, like Drumohr, knit "in the round" and were seamless, a more expensive make. Apparently Drumohr and McGeorge have gone out of business since the turn of the century. In recent years some Brooks and PRL have been made by Judane Knitwear in Lerwick, Shetland Islands, Scotland of _real_ Shetland wool. This company sells directly to the public. I've had no experience ordering from them. click > www.shetlanddirect.co.uk

jamgood: better quality new clothing, never described as "Amazing", @ 60-90% off retail https://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZjamgoodQQhtZ-!


----------



## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Horace, with due respect to the folks in Cambridge, if The Andover Shop is fine with charging $900 for an off-the-rack tweed sportcoat, I can't imagine what they would charge for oxford cloth pajamas. Cheers, Harris


$900 for a jacket huh? At the Cambridge location? Did you go into the shop or did you call? I was there not too long ago and they had tweeds in the 400's.


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tweeds in the $400? Andover Shop? *HUH?*


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DD,

I feel your pain. Which is why I remove the logo. Easy to remove from chinos, and equally easy to remove a pocket from an OCBD. Removal=absence of logo. I'll be removing the pocket from the oxford cloth PJ's soon.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's worth the train ride up to Cambridge one day...


----------



## KenCPollock (Dec 20, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by xcubbies_
> 
> Harris, you've got some explaining to do. First of all, what were even doing so near RL stuff that you could read the sizes on the tags? Next you're going to be claiming that the devil made you do it.
> 
> I knew it meant trouble when the Trads got our own forum. We're all in it together, but you can't expect word of this not leaking out. Listen, let's circle our wagons and don't let the guys in the Fashion Forum find out. This could undermine the whole concept of Trad. I mean, what happens when Trad is no longer Trad?


Doesn't Harris have more than some explaining to do? Shopping at the Polo store for anything other than the Purple Label (EG) shoes is beyond the pale. My good friend Ernest was banned from the Fashion Forum for far less serious transgressions.


----------



## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

I know, I know. I've been in your (or is it Ralph's?) corener for a long time. I do prefer the items sans logo, of course.


----------



## p-beau (Jun 24, 2005)

Harris you mentioned that some of the best shetlands you have found have been from RL, is this the type?

Does anyone have experience with this model?

https://www.polo.com/product/index....&cp=1760788.1818707.1766320&parentPage=family

-Pete


----------



## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

Gentlemen,
It looks as if there may be a mole in the trad forum (avert your eyes, he may take on other forms!)....Johnathan Pollard, make room for your new cell mate HARRIS! 
In all seriousness though, if Ralph Loren makes you happy, than you two should be together, so to speak .I certainly believe that one should refrain from "contempt prior to investigation" (-Herbert Spencer) where possible unless it deprives one of the opportunity for droll humor. Every once in a while, perhaps a bit in our current era, fashion drops by to gain inspiration from the world of traditional clothing. Every once in a while, they might get it right. I certain believe such instances are as rare as the town of Brigadoon showing up on the moor, but never-the-less it does happen can have a positive effect on the market. Banana Republic made a pair of reproduction British Army Khakis which I wore through South Africa, Namibia, and various other states in utter turmoil in the mid 80's. I still have them and could easily get another 20,000 miles of hard road out of them had I not "grown as a person" over the last 20 years.... at the time Banana Republic was something of a novelty store, but they made a good product which I used well. If they still made good products, I'd shop there regardless of their "trad-ness".... so if Harris has found a quality alternative, so be it.


----------



## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

One factor I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the merits of buying USA-made products (Mercer, Bills) from smaller businesses as opposed to feeding clothing giants like PoloRL.

I still buy from Polo, here and there, if I find something unique that only they offer, or if something is severely discounted. 
But, I don't have that same good feeling I get when I buy from a place like Mercer and Sons.

Anybody else feel this way?


----------



## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

True, of course the availabitiy factor is hard to resist, for many in the midwest, or south, who dont live near Press, Brooks, etc.


----------



## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

Shirtmaven posted a message on sf.com in response to a query of mine a year or so ago, concerning the remaining producers in the USA of pajamas. I don't know if the thread still exists, but perhaps I'll start another query in the hopes that the Mave will reply again.


----------



## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> The Madison Avenue shop. It's actually quite impressive. I pop by once or twice a month. Typically a great selection of stuff that one never sees online or in other stores.
> 
> ...


Harris, do you remember the style name of this jacket? How are your other purchases holding up? Do you still love them as much? Thanks.


----------



## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

I appreciate Ralph's efforts to offer his clothing in sizes accomodating the trad of more generous proportions.


----------



## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ages ago, and for a long time, it was named "Princeton." May still be, but I doubt it. Polo has produced "Princeton" variations (lapel width, shoulders, waist suppression) since the first PRL tailored garments by Norman Hilton in the early 70's. Also used to make it in a 12-14 oz. all wool flannel, and cashmere.

jamgood: better quality new clothing, never described as "Amazing", @ 60-90% off retail https://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZjamgoodQQhtZ-!


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope. But, boy-oh-boy, did it ever fit great.

The "Big Oxford" and the "G.I. Pant" continue to please. It takes all of eight minutes to remove the pocket featuring the Polo-RL emblem.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Harris- I'm sure this has been asked before so be patient...how do you remove the shirt pocket without leaving marks?


----------



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tintin_
> 
> Harris- I'm sure this has been asked before so be patient...how do you remove the shirt pocket without leaving marks?


It's easy, but you have to take your time and be patient. Don't hurry. Plus, it's safer with white shirts.


----------



## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tintin_
> 
> Harris- I'm sure this has been asked before so be patient...how do you remove the shirt pocket without leaving marks?


Purcahse a seam ripper, a sharp pointed instrument, from the sewing department of the local Wal-Mart. On the  underside  of the shirt carefully cut each stitch by slipping the seam ripper underneath each small length of thread. This is more difficult if there are very many stitches per inch. If there are 24 stitches per inch, or more, forget about it. Eyesight might also prohibit this rather time consuming task. When the pocket is removed, dampen the resulting needle holes with water and jiggle the cloth around in different directions before pressing. Works best on oxford cloth and other loosely woven fabrics, broadcloth may leave visable needle holes. Never on corduroy, etc. You probably have better things to do with your time and it can be a pain in the a##.

jamgood: better quality new clothing, never described as "Amazing", @ 60-90% off retail https://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZjamgoodQQhtZ-!


----------



## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Thanks for the details, James. After all of that, I think I'll pass. BTW, Harris. Try not to be so verbose.


----------

