# How long should sleeves be?



## etp777 (Nov 27, 2007)

This is an issue I still do some wrestling with. The common response is that it should come down to your wrist. THat's simple enough. The question is, do you wear a sleeve long enough that your wrist is still covered if you bend or raise arm (and hence have some bagginess when arm is just hanging straight down), or do you wear a sleeve that exactly reaches your wrist when arm is straight down, but then bares wrist if you bend elbow or raise arm at all?

I figure I should make a final decision on this before I spend $225 (or whatever current sale price is) on the BB formal shirt, not to mention the bespoke shirts I'm going to have made in next month or two.


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## wgb (Mar 2, 2007)

I'm sure that others more knowledgeable than I will chime in, but I've always understood that the shirt sleeve should cover the wrist joint with the arm relaxed at your side. At least that's how I've always been measured for a suit and the tailor then sets the jacket sleeve length X inches from the thumb tip. The proper shirt sleeve length is 1/2" longer than the jacket sleeve, I believe. In RTW shirts, I've found that when wearing a shirt under a jacket, I need about an extra inch to prevent the shirt sleeve from riding up inside the jacket sleeve. Thus in the business casual (no jacket environment), I usually wear a 34" sleeve so the shirt cuffs aren't riding way up on my thumb, but under a jacket I need a 35" sleeve to show the proper amount of linen. I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that the armhole opening in the jacket hikes the sleeve up a bit.

One of the virtues of French cuffs is that if they're made with the double buttonholes, the sleeve length can be adjusted slightly, which usually takes care of the sight variation most foks have in arm length without having to tailor a RTW shirt. If you're having custom shirts made, the shirtmaker will know how to measure properly since your arms are likely to be different lengths anyway.


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## DunninLA (Aug 17, 2007)

There are really two questions here -- where you sleeve should hang when you purchase it new, and where it should hang after about five washes and it has shrunk an entire inch.

Assuming a 1" shrinkage, I like my sleeves to come 1/4 inch above my thumb knuckle which is two inches beyond my wrist line>>> so therefore the washed shirt will be one inch beyond the wrist line> I then have the button of the cuff adjusted to close with two fingers space. This allows the one inch too long sleeve to hang at the wrist line. The cuff then moves a little up when I bend my arm, but does not bind.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

My answer to your question has taken me years to find, although Flusser has it in his book. Your sleeves should not be at the correct length by hanging from your shoulders. Rather, they should be stopped at the correct place on your wrist by the diameter of the cuff which you should determine and fix in place by moving the cuff button. Flusser states if you can take off the shirt without undoing the cuff button your cuffs are too large. When you bend your arm your cuff should not move uo the wrist. If it does your sleeves are too short and they will be if you are "hanging" the shirt to where you want it. There should be fullness in the sleeve...extra length..so it doesn't ride up. The snug fit of the cuff prevents it from going too far down the wrist. All this makes sense when you consider that shirts are made exactly symetrical with the sleeves the same length, but human bodies are not. Usually one arm is longer or one shoulder lower. If you put the symetrical shirt on ,one sleeve wiill hang down farther than the other. This is why some guys have such a hard time getting the right amount of shirt to show below the sleeve of their jackets. I went to about four tailors over the years trying to get the right amount to show and not one of them ever said " your shirt sleeves are too short". That was the problem though. I was depending on getting the right length by "hanging" them from my shoulder instead of "stopping them on my wrists through a cuff adjustment.


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## Larey (Dec 1, 2007)

*Visuals*

Everyone on the planet has a digital camera and I've never properly understood where my thumb starts or what bony part of my anatomy to use for a measuring starting point.... a few pictures of would help simplify things for my limited imagination.


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## etp777 (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks everyone.

Windsor, this is how I've worn them, as it seems right, esp to work better under a jacket (as both you and wgb said). Godo to know I was doing it right. Well, as right as can be with OTR shirts that are only available in 32/33 or 34/35. I have to go with the 34s, as small wrist means I'm wearin geither 32 or 34 with these types of shirts, and proper measuring seems to say I'm about a 33 without a jacket, 34 with. Hopefully as I move to nicer shirts, I can get a better fit, but it's good to know what proper wear is, so I can know if they really fit right. Just time to measure neck to be sure i have that size right, then order my fancy new formal shirt.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

not being a shirt maker this is from a tailors point of view. [not a pun]
the shirt cuff is the tailors aiming point when adjusting jacket sleeves. 
if the cuffs on each of your shirts strike a different point on your hand 
then the jacket sleeves will show different amounts of linen.
the circumference of the shirt cuff must always be the same.
then it will always be at the same point on your hand. 
it will be in the right place even if the shirt sleeve is too long.
moving the buttons will usually help.


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## fruityoaty (Jan 18, 2008)

I have a couple of thoughts on this matter, but no clear answer. There are two scenarios in my mind:


 Smaller cuffs that rest on the wrist and a sleeve that is never quite taut.

 Larger cuffs with sleeves that hang from the shoulder and are the correct length when arms are at sides but pull away from the wrist when your arms are raised.

The jacket pushing up the armpit of the shirt causes length problems if the shirt is hung from the shoulder.

Forearm showing when raising arms should be minimized IMHO.

If a cuff is small enough to rest on the wrist, it still may not show an even amount of fabric, since your dominant hand will probably be larger in diameter. Hanging the sleeve from the shoulder shifts this problem to uneven arm length. So if you have more of a problem with uneven arms than uneven hand size, you should go with #1, else go with #2.

Even if you have a bespoke shirt, the cuffs will shrink. Since the wrist has a shallow slope to it (angle between your forearm bones and the region between your wrist and first thumb knuckles), any change in the diameter of the cuff will be magnified greatly in terms of apparent sleeve length. After a few washes, the apparent length of a cuff that rests on the wrist will change more than one that "hangs" from the shoulder (in theory). So if you buy the shirt with the intention of it resting on the wrist, you will need to worry more about how much it will shrink.

Smaller diameter cuffs don't crawl up the jacket sleeve as much, since they rubs less on the jacket sleeve.

I find a sleeve that hangs from my shoulder more comfortable, since it doesn't rub on my wrist as much and lets air in at the cuff.

If we are to tailor shirt cuffs to match pant cuffs, then #2 seems to be the answer. Maybe making cuffs smaller diameter _and_ sleeves the correct length would be the answer.

:idea: What about a loop inside the jacket cuff that attaches to a shirt button, either on the cuff or the sleeve placket? That would keep the jacket and shirt sleeves in the same relative location.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*"...base, or root, of the thumb..."*



etp777 said:


> This is an issue I still do some wrestling with. The common response is that it should come down to your wrist...


"The shirtsleeve needs to fall at the base, or root, of the thumb.." 

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=683650#post683650


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Larey said:


> Everyone on the planet has a digital camera and I've never properly understood where my thumb starts or what bony part of my anatomy to use for a measuring starting point.... a few pictures of would help simplify things for my limited imagination.


https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=683665#post683665


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

a tailor said:


> ...the shirt cuff is the tailors aiming point when adjusting jacket sleeves...moving the buttons will usually help.


I would be very interested to know how the circumference of the shirt cuff is adjusted with French cuffs. Can you tell us how this is done?


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Larey said:


> Everyone on the planet has a digital camera.


Heavens above, I don't have one - yet!


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## Larey (Dec 1, 2007)

Orsini said:


> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=683665#post683665


Aha! :idea: that is a great description.

By the way I'm now +1 on adjusting the cuff button attain the correct position (as opposed to length). I've gotten much better at sewing buttons and since I adjusted all my shirts I started wearing a watch again so I have to re position the left button on each shirt... on each good shirt anyway, the cheaper ones have 2 buttons on each cuff.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

Orsini said:


> I would be very interested to know how the circumference of the shirt cuff is adjusted with French cuffs. Can you tell us how this is done?


you got me there. im just a lowly tailor, not a shirt maker. 
the only person to ask this is alexander.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*Thank You*



Larey said:


> Aha! :idea: that is a great description...


Thank you. Glad to have been of assistance.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

a tailor said:


> you got me there. im just a lowly tailor, not a shirt maker.
> the only person to ask this is alexander.


Thank you. I will follow up on that.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

fruityoaty said:


> :idea: What about a loop inside the jacket cuff that attaches to a shirt button, either on the cuff or the sleeve placket? That would keep the jacket and shirt sleeves in the same relative location.


That is a genuinely really good idea. 

But I suppose it might cause problems if you intended to remove your jacket from time to time? :icon_scratch:


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

Larey said:


> Everyone on the planet has a digital camera and I've never properly understood where my thumb starts or what bony part of my anatomy to use for a measuring starting point.... a few pictures of would help simplify things for my limited imagination.


I read the older post but I'm still not clear. Let's get scientific. Is the base of the thumb the "carpometacarpal (basilar) joint"? Because that joint I can feel on my wrist. (source: https://www.assh.org)


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

JerseyJohn said:


> I read the older post but I'm still not clear. Let's get scientific. Is the base of the thumb the "carpometacarpal (basilar) joint"? Because that joint I can feel on my wrist. (source: https://www.assh.org)


yes john imho thats the longest point a shirt cuff should reach. 
if the cuff circumference is such that it will stop at that point then we have a solid base. then we can set the jacket sleeves accordingly.if the two arms are not the same length then if they are a bit long it will never show as uneven. it may be necessary to make the cuffs two different sizes. 
in the case of rtw shirts the cuff buttons could be moved to adapt.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I don't care what Flusser says... 

Lots of plumage in the sleeve looks silly. :teacha:

PS: Great diagrams!


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## Americanninja (Jul 4, 2017)

windsor said:


> My answer to your question has taken me years to find, although Flusser has it in his book. Your sleeves should not be at the correct length by hanging from your shoulders. Rather, they should be stopped at the correct place on your wrist by the diameter of the cuff which you should determine and fix in place by moving the cuff button. Flusser states if you can take off the shirt without undoing the cuff button your cuffs are too large. When you bend your arm your cuff should not move uo the wrist. If it does your sleeves are too short and they will be if you are "hanging" the shirt to where you want it. There should be fullness in the sleeve...extra length..so it doesn't ride up. The snug fit of the cuff prevents it from going too far down the wrist. All this makes sense when you consider that shirts are made exactly symetrical with the sleeves the same length, but human bodies are not. Usually one arm is longer or one shoulder lower. If you put the symetrical shirt on ,one sleeve wiill hang down farther than the other. This is why some guys have such a hard time getting the right amount of shirt to show below the sleeve of their jackets. I went to about four tailors over the years trying to get the right amount to show and not one of them ever said " your shirt sleeves are too short". That was the problem though. I was depending on getting the right length by "hanging" them from my shoulder instead of "stopping them on my wrists through a cuff adjustment.


The best comment I have seen thus far! This is the secret and for some strange, stupid reason, it seems to elude most of us for years. And my experience has been exactly the same. I have been to numerous tailors and they never ONCE explained this basic basic concept.

However, during my journey to find the perfect sleeve length, I did come across an alternate solution, which I realized was the only difference between my Japanese tailored shirts (which always fit the best, but were either too expensive, or the cheaper ones were horrible material) and my HK, Chinese, and Western tailored and RTW shirts, was the difference between the sleeve length and the under sleeve seam length (I don't exactly know how to call it). What I refer to as the under sleeve seam length, is if you measure from where the seam line on the under side of the arm meets the armhole to the edge of the sleeve/cuff. I noticed that my HK tailored shirts, which had a sleeve length of 64cm and a under sleeve length of 53cm would fit fine when my arms were at my side, but the sleeve would always pull back towards the wrist when lifting my arms or reaching for something. However, my Japanese tailored shirts, which had a sleeve length of 62cm and a under sleeve length of 56cm would look fine at my side and when lifting my arms, they would not move. I assumed it was because the under sleeve length. On the HK shirts, this would cause the shirt sleeve to pull back when extending the arms, etc. I noticed that the difference between sleeve length and under sleeve length were roughly the same between the two tailored shirts depending on the sleeve length. For example, the HK tailored shirt had a difference of 64cm-53cm = 11cm and the Japanese shirt had a difference of 62cm-56cm = 6cm. So if I had the HK tailor adjust the sleeve length to 66cm, the under sleeve length would be 55cm. Same with the Japanese shirt. So it seems these tailors have a set calculation they make depending on the sleeve length.

All I do know, is that even though the Japanese shirt had a shorter sleeve length than the HK one (by 2cm), if I lift my arms, the sleeve would not move, whereas the HK one would. So it would seem as though the secret is in the under sleeve length. Obviously, having a longer sleeve length and making the cuffs tight enough to prevent them from dropping lower than the wrist, would also solve the problem. However, the difference would be, based on my Japanese tailored shirt example, I would not have to have extra fabric near the lower part of my arm to allow for that movement. So I assume it would be better to create the shirt based on the Japanese shirt dimension. In this way, the sleeve drops exactly at the wrist when the arms are resting at the side of the body, and they stay at that wrist line even when lifting and wearing a jacket. So I assume this is the superior way to tailor the shirt.

Has anyone else experimented with this or noticed this at all? I would love to hear others thoughts?


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## Maljunulo (Jun 25, 2016)

windsor said:


> My answer to your question has taken me years to find, although Flusser has it in his book. Your sleeves should not be at the correct length by hanging from your shoulders. Rather, they should be stopped at the correct place on your wrist by the diameter of the cuff which you should determine and fix in place by moving the cuff button. Flusser states if you can take off the shirt without undoing the cuff button your cuffs are too large. When you bend your arm your cuff should not move uo the wrist. If it does your sleeves are too short and they will be if you are "hanging" the shirt to where you want it. There should be fullness in the sleeve...extra length..so it doesn't ride up. The snug fit of the cuff prevents it from going too far down the wrist. All this makes sense when you consider that shirts are made exactly symetrical with the sleeves the same length, but human bodies are not. Usually one arm is longer or one shoulder lower. If you put the symetrical shirt on ,one sleeve wiill hang down farther than the other. This is why some guys have such a hard time getting the right amount of shirt to show below the sleeve of their jackets. I went to about four tailors over the years trying to get the right amount to show and not one of them ever said " your shirt sleeves are too short". That was the problem though. I was depending on getting the right length by "hanging" them from my shoulder instead of "stopping them on my wrists through a cuff adjustment.


This has been my way of dealing with the problem. It drove me crazy when buying RTW shirts, because if the collar fit, the sleeves were too short, and vice versa. Also, asymmetry was a source of frustration.

Now I am happy with my MTM shirts, after all those years.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

First, I'll acknowledge that Americanninja is responding to comments that are over 9 years old. Thank God this isn't a forum about favorite recipes. "Just like you said, I've been checking on the biscuits regularly since January 2008. When did you say I should take them out of the oven?"

OK, that's out of the way. Now:

I see Americanninja's point. In short: stay away from armholes that are too big relative to your build. This applies not only to the armholes of shirts, but of suit jackets and sport coats.

If the circumference of the armhole is too large, then although your sleeves may be the proper length when you are holding your arms straight down by your sides, the cuffs will pull too far back from your wrists when you lift and reach your arms. This is known as "cuff slide away phenomenon," or CSAP (pronounced "see sap." As in, "Hey, see the sap with the exposed wrists").

The "underseam" of a sleeve determines whether--and by how much--the cuff will slide up the moving arm. The shorter the underseam, the more it yanks the cuff away from the wrist. The cuff wants to stay with the wrist, but the short underseam won't let it go that far--like a too-short leash yanking back a poor dog. The cuff can't go any farther than the underseam.

The larger the armhole, the shorter the sleeve underseam. The shorter the underseam, the worse the CSAP.

So with shirts and jackets, keep the armhole circumference within sane bounds in order to maximize the underseam and minimize CSAP.

Next up: The dreaded "TofD" (Triangle of Death).


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