# Tuxedo w/ Bow Tie but No Cummerbund or Vest: A Good Look?



## barrettdudley (Oct 28, 2005)

This is kind of a follow up to a post I made yesterday, I just thought I'd start a new thread though. I want to wear my tuxedo with a bow tie but no cummerbund or vest. Bond does it in Casino Royale through use of a fly front (covered buttons) shirt. Are there any other ways it can be pulled off? Is it acceptable? Fashionable?


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

The fly front shirt doesn't really mean anything. In GoldenEye, Brosnan wore a fly-front shirt with a low-cut waistcoat. Casino Royale isn't the first time Bond went without a cummerbund or waistcoat. Even Connery did it in Goldfinger. Lazenby did it. Dalton did it in The Living Daylights. Brosnan did it in his last 2 films. But I would not wear a dinner jacket without a cummerbund or low-cut waistcoat. I would go with a cummerbund, because just about any ready to wear waistcoat you will find will be the high-cut, day-wear style. A cummerbund is a necessity. While I've taken the time to examine every piece of Bond's clothing, he wears something every so often that most members of this forum would disagree with. He wears a notch lapel dinner jacket on seven occasions, something we all know is incorrect. The one in Licence to Kill is the worst. It has 2 buttons.:icon_headagainstwal I can think of a few other times when Bond dresses pooly. Not everything he does should be emulated.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Matt S said:


> The fly front shirt doesn't really mean anything. In GoldenEye, Brosnan wore a fly-front shirt with a low-cut waistcoat. Casino Royale isn't the first time Bond went without a cummerbund or waistcoat. Even Connery did it in Goldfinger. Lazenby did it. Dalton did it in The Living Daylights. Brosnan did it in his last 2 films. But I would not wear a dinner jacket without a cummerbund or low-cut waistcoat. I would go with a cummerbund, because just about any ready to wear waistcoat you will find will be the high-cut, day-wear style. A cummerbund is a necessity. While I've taken the time to examine every piece of Bond's clothing, he wears something every so often that most members of this forum would disagree with. He wears a notch lapel dinner jacket on seven occasions, something we all know is incorrect. The one in Licence to Kill is the worst. It has 2 buttons.:icon_headagainstwal I can think of a few other times when Bond dresses pooly. Not everything he does should be emulated.


A good reply, Matt.


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## LaoHu (Sep 16, 2006)

Matt S said:


> just about any ready to wear waistcoat you will find will be the high-cut, day-wear style.


Agreed, but there are some exceptions:

Buckleigh's


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## chobochobo (May 5, 2006)

Does the texture of the cummerband have to match the lapels? Most of my tuxedos have grosgrain rather than satin, and I've not come across any grosgrain cummerbunds yet.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Ideally, they should match (or complement) the tie. No worries if they don't both come in grosgrain.


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## chobochobo (May 5, 2006)

Ahh, of course. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Nothing wrong with not wearing a waistcoat or cummerbund. Some might even suggest that the latter was slightly déclassé.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*The name is Kong ...King Kong*



Matt S said:


> I can think of a few other times when Bond dresses pooly. Not everything he does should be emulated.


I agree totally. Aping everything you see on the silver screen will more likely lead to you to look like a King Kong than a James Bond.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

barrettdudley:

The waistband of formal trousers must always be covered! This is dictated from the practice of wearing the jacket of White Tie open. 

The formal shirt will have a pleated front (to the waist only, so that it doesn't buckle when you sit down) - that's the other reason the waist is always covered with either a cummerbund or waistcoat. 

The choices are cummerbund (has *nothing to do with holding up your pants*), a vest or a double breasted dinner jacket which is never unbuttoned in public!


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## 6waters (Mar 7, 2005)

I have a black grosgrain cummerbund and self-tie bow tie from Robert Talbott. My tailor was able to arrange the purchase from them directly, but I have not seen the gross grain in any stores. 

It is a good match to my lapels

Hansen's of Iowa as an earlier poster pointed linked to has a faille set. I don't know if this is the same or different from the set I have from Robert Talbott. When I tried to but from them they only had pre-tied bows, but now it looks like they have self-tie also.




You might try Paul Stuart also, not on their website - but you could call them.


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

*Possibly, but it would require one of two things . . .*

. . . either that you never unbutton your tuxedo's jacket, or that you develop the same "six-pack" abs (as well as the other physical accoutrements of Daniel Craig) such that not an ounce of fat ever peeked over your waistband. Neither solution would be sartorially correct, but option #2 would make you look spectacular enough such that no one would ever challenge you on this faux pas. :icon_smile_wink:

For myself, I prefer waistcoat/vest to cummerbund, as I find them more comfortable to wear, and I happened upon a RLPL grey silk jacquard waistcoat (three-button, low-cut) for $30 at my local Syms several years ago, which rather clinched the deal.

Now, at the other end of the sartorial spectrum, what do people think of Favourbrook for waistcoats?

www.favourbrook.com



barrettdudley said:


> This is kind of a follow up to a post I made yesterday, I just thought I'd start a new thread though. I want to wear my tuxedo with a bow tie but no cummerbund or vest. Bond does it in Casino Royale through use of a fly front (covered buttons) shirt. Are there any other ways it can be pulled off? Is it acceptable? Fashionable?


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Just get a DB dinner jacket like I did and you won't have to worry about it


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

I remember some Remington Steele episodes where Brosnan wore black tie, but his trousers were held up by a belt. I thought that was rather strange.

Keep in mind that these days, the main target market for big budget movies is the youth, from teenagers to mid thirties. Our forum members aside, most of this generation associates traditional menswear with being uptight and stuffy. The cummerbund may be a included in this concept. That's why they try to tweak formalwear a little(technicolor vests, pink silk neckties, etc.)

I'm just glad Bond has not been onscreen with a band or a wing collar for black tie so far.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

If you wish to emulate Bond, have a look at his dinner ensemble from Tomorrow Never Dies. It is really one of the most impressive pieces in all the Bond films, but it really isn't too Bondian. The dinner jacket is midnight blue w/blue grosgrain facings, peak lapels, double reverse pleat trousers, and a pique front shirt w/mother of pearl studs. But that all can be accepted as Bondian. What is special is the waistcoat. It is double breasted w/shawl lapels. It has 5 buttons in a "V" formation. It truly looks spectacular. I have never seen anything like it before. Here are some pictures:


















Here's the best shot I could get of the waistcoat. He was lying on the floor.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

AMVanquish said:


> I remember some Remington Steele episodes where Brosnan wore black tie, but his trousers were held up by a belt. I thought that was rather strange.


Yes, I noticed that too. He always wore a belt. He would always have a belt under his waistcoats, whether with his dinner jacket or 3-piece suit. At least his even waistcoats were low-cut, but I don't believe they ever had a lapel. He wore a cummerbund on occasion with a white dinner jacket, but in the first season there was an episode when he wore a black low-cut waistcoat with a white dinner jacket. I've never seen that before. He wore a lot of double breasted dinner jackets and always had a belt under those too. His overuse of the belt was really the worst thing he did in the series. His suits were the best in the first season, but then started wearing fashion forward Italian suits with the low-gorge. But the 4th season just about all he wore were 6 on 1 and 4 on 1 double brested suits. The worst thing I saw him do was when he took off a double breasted suit coat he revealed that he was wearing both braces and a belt. That was quite disturbing. But the suits in the first half of season 1 are amazing, save the belt.


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## charms (Mar 24, 2007)

You're young and I'm guessing that you'll be wearing it to college events such as fraternity formals. As such, you could certainly pull off that look without raising the ire of your classmates and, in fact, be better dressed than 99% of your fraternity brothers. It's unfortunate, but most people under 30 regard a cummerbund as a laughable throwback to 1980s prom photos or band uniforms.

As others have noted, Craig's outfit does not comply with the rules of formal dress. His look is fashionable, even arguably quite handsome, but incorrect.

As you'll quickly learn, this probably isn't the place to come for permission to break sartorial rules. However, I'd say your 'sin' is forgiveable, particularly as a young person, as long as you recognize that you are in fact breaking the rules.


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## barrettdudley (Oct 28, 2005)

Well thanks to all for the feedback. Yes, I am young and I do hate the way cummerbunds look. So, I think from what I've heard, I'll go with this rule-breaking style until I hit.. say 30? LOL, I may have to go find a vest though because I have had zero luck finding a fly front shirt with french cuffs and if I'm going to ever unbutton my jacket during the event, a classic tux shirt doesn't have a stud in the last button. My tailor at the Texas Clothier in Austin, Texas also told me it was okay to go with no cummerbund or vest. Just so you can see if you're interested, here is a picture of the look I'm going for. It may not be "appropriate" but I think its a very clean, minimal look and personally I love it. And in response to one post, LOL, I don't quite have a six pack, but also no fat will be hanging over my pants.

<https://www.didntyouhear.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/bondtux.jpg>


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## charms (Mar 24, 2007)

Here's a fly front shirt with cuffs from Lipson, a Canadian maker. The shirt has a texture, visible in the detail.


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Your best bet with a fly front is to order one, because you'll be hard pressed to find one in a store, just as it's hard to find a low cut waistcoat. I actually had to order both -- the shirt from Harvie & Hudson and the waistcoat during a Brioni trunk show. If you are planning on going with this look until your 30s, it might be worth ordering a fly front shirt for future events.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

LaoHu said:


> Agreed, but there are some exceptions:
> 
> Buckleigh's


Might I add Oliver Brown.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Matt S said:


> The fly front shirt doesn't really mean anything. In GoldenEye, Brosnan wore a fly-front shirt with a low-cut waistcoat. Casino Royale isn't the first time Bond went without a cummerbund or waistcoat. Even Connery did it in Goldfinger. Lazenby did it. Dalton did it in The Living Daylights. Brosnan did it in his last 2 films. But I would not wear a dinner jacket without a cummerbund or low-cut waistcoat. I would go with a cummerbund, because just about any ready to wear waistcoat you will find will be the high-cut, day-wear style. A cummerbund is a necessity. While I've taken the time to examine every piece of Bond's clothing, he wears something every so often that most members of this forum would disagree with. He wears a notch lapel dinner jacket on seven occasions, something we all know is incorrect. The one in Licence to Kill is the worst. It has 2 buttons.:icon_headagainstwal I can think of a few other times when Bond dresses pooly. Not everything he does should be emulated.


Not the least being that he wears a purely sports watch (Rolex Submariner or Omega Seamaster, depending upon which Bond) with his tux, at least as much a faux pas as the absence of a cummerbund, I think.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

rip said:


> Not the least being that he wears a purely sports watch (Rolex Submariner or Omega Seamaster, depending upon which Bond) with his tux, at least as much a faux pas as the absence of a cummerbund, I think.


The watch I can accept if he's on duty and needs the gadget. He can never be too careful. I suppose you're a fan of Diamonds Are Forever: no watch and cummerbund. The cummerbund is also a gadget. But the black coat he wore had notch lapels; the white one had peak. He wears a dark velvet jacket in the final scene with shawl lapels. It seems that whenever Connery or Moore wore 2 dinner jackets in their films the first one was peak and the second was notch. It holds true for 4 films. The Living Daylights broke the pattern: shawl, notch, peak.


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## barrettdudley (Oct 28, 2005)

That Lipson is great, unfortunately I need the 15.5 Regular which comes with a 33.5 sleeve length. I'm far closer to a 32. I'm checking out the Harvie & Hudson website though right now. Perhaps they'll do the trick.


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## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

barrettdudley said:


> Just so you can see if you're interested, here is a picture of the look I'm going for. It may not be "appropriate" but I think its a very clean, minimal look and personally I love it.


I would strongly recommend that you wear a self-tie bow tie (as also shown in the photo). To me that would send a clear signal that your foregoeing of the traditional waist covering is a concscious decision to bend the rules rather than the outcome of a total ignorance of them.


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## barrettdudley (Oct 28, 2005)

Of course! I have a classic black silk one. I can't stand those pre-tied ones.


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

barrettdudley said:


> That Lipson is great, unfortunately I need the 15.5 Regular which comes with a 33.5 sleeve length. I'm far closer to a 32. I'm checking out the Harvie & Hudson website though right now. Perhaps they'll do the trick.


You'll have to email H&H to request the shirt have a fly front since it's not an option on their . If you're in Texas, check out the Virtual Clothes Horse website -- they have a 15.5 Kiton with fly front... pricey, but Lance is located in Texas.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

barrettdudley said:


> Of course! I have a classic black silk one. I can't stand those pre-tied ones.


It's nice to know that I'm not the only young person who wears a real bowtie. I went to a concert at the New England Conservatory, and from what I could tell, everyone I saw was wearing a clip-on. Of course, I was there primarily to hear the music, which was excellent. But any AAAC member would examine all of the clothes, and out of the hundred people who performed only two would have been almost acceptable by our standards.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*And from Savile Row...*

"It was OK for James Bond to wear a cummerbund in 1970; they were part of a particular style at the time, but I think these days they look old-fashioned. There's nothing modern or elegant about the cummerbund now." -- Carlo Brandelli of Kilgour.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Matt S said:


> It's nice to know that I'm not the only young person who wears a real bowtie. I went to a concert at the New England Conservatory, and from what I could tell, everyone I saw was wearing a clip-on. Of course, I was there primarily to hear the music, which was excellent. But any AAAC member would examine all of the clothes, and out of the hundred people who performed only two would have been almost acceptable by our standards.


I went to hear the Sydney Symphony at the Opera House last night. I was appalled. The conductor wore a dress suit - without a waistcoat! Most of the members of the orchestra wore their dress coats with turn down collars and pleated fronts! I saw not one correctly dressed musician. Not one! As for the audience...


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Sator said:


> I went to hear the Sydney Symphony at the Opera House last night. I was appalled. The conductor wore a dress suit - without a waistcoat! Most of the members of the orchestra wore their dress coats with turn down collars and pleated fronts! I saw not one correctly dressed musician. Not one! As for the audience...


It gets worse I'm afraid. At the Dallas Symphony's performance of Messiah last month the Conductor wore a tailcoat with a black banded collar shirt and no tie. Less than 25% of the men in the audience bothered to wear a tie.


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## PolarBear (Feb 20, 2006)

I searched all over new york for a fly front, pique shirt to wear with my dinner jacket (a la Bond in Casino Royale, as you mention). The only place I found one? Thomas Pink. Pricey at $175, but no one else has them.

https://www.thomaspink.co.uk/us/product-details/?00400017W1X


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## chobochobo (May 5, 2006)

PolarBear said:


> I searched all over new york for a fly front, pique shirt to wear with my dinner jacket (a la Bond in Casino Royale, as you mention). The only place I found one? Thomas Pink. Pricey at $175, but no one else has them.
> 
> https://www.thomaspink.co.uk/us/product-details/?00400017W1X


You could get one made at a certain Hong Kong shirt maker for less, if you can stand the uncertainty with regards to time of delivery. I had one made, wing collar before I went off wing collars with dinner jackets, though the collar is nice and high and the wings moderately large, so it looks pretty good.


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## kirbya (Nov 10, 2004)

*I like the look!*

I think that a tux with no vest / cummerbund is actually a very classy, young look. Several tailors I know, namely Chris Despos and Nino Corvato, make tux trousers with a very wide (or tall) grosgrain silk waistband to replace the grosgrain cummerbund. I've seen it and think that it looks tremendous. I understand it is against the rules, but not in such a way that it isn't "in their spirit."


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

kirbya said:


> I think that a tux with no vest / cummerbund is actually a very classy, young look. Several tailors I know, namely Chris Despos and Nino Corvato, make tux trousers with a very wide (or tall) grosgrain silk waistband to replace the grosgrain cummerbund. I've seen it and think that it looks tremendous. I understand it is against the rules, but not in such a way that it isn't "in their spirit."


James Bond had trousers with the kind of waistband you mention in a few films. It obviously isn't a cummerbund and is much more like a taller waistband. But I guess it beats a noraml waistband. I prefer it to those 6-button waistcoats I see with a dinner jacket.


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## charms (Mar 24, 2007)

Matt S said:


> I prefer it to those 6-button waistcoats I see with a dinner jacket.


Not to threadjack, but why is it that the 6-button has seemingly become the standard tuxedo vest? I've been looking into a lot of formal wear these past few weeks, and it's virtually impossible to find one off-the-rack that isn't a high-cut 6B.


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

charms said:


> Not to threadjack, but why is it that the 6-button has seemingly become the standard tuxedo vest? I've been looking into a lot of formal wear these past few weeks, and it's virtually impossible to find one off-the-rack that isn't a high-cut 6B.


I would blame rental places pushing the style. I had commented in another thread where I had gone into a rental store to see what the current style was. When I asked the salesman there why they had to low cut vests, he said those were special order and out of style. Rather, "the more buttons the better" was in style, and he showed me one vest with God knows how many buttons -- essentially only showing off the top of the shirt and tie knot. Then he showed me the current jacket that they were pushing which had no buttons at all so one could show off a vest with 6+ buttons. :crazy:


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## PolarBear (Feb 20, 2006)

chobochobo said:


> You could get one made at a certain Hong Kong shirt maker for less, if you can stand the uncertainty with regards to time of delivery. I had one made, wing collar before I went off wing collars with dinner jackets, though the collar is nice and high and the wings moderately large, so it looks pretty good.


this is very true, but I was in a tight time crunch--Pink was the best option. Had I not been pressed for time, I probably would have done CEGO in NY.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

The reason why we see 6-button vests is the same reason why we see notch lapels on dinner jackets: they are cheaper to produce because they are the same as a suit.


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## AZTEC (May 11, 2005)

medwards said:


> "It was OK for James Bond to wear a cummerbund in 1970; they were part of a particular style at the time, but I think these days they look old-fashioned. There's nothing modern or elegant about the cummerbund now." -- Carlo Brandelli of Kilgour.


I tend to agree with Brandelli. There is something passé about the cummerbund. still, a matter of personal taste I guess.

AZTEC


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## barrettdudley (Oct 28, 2005)

Ughhhh! That Thomas Pink one would have been PERFECT. Now, I need this thing for tomorrow and I have had zero luck. Unfortunately, I am in Austin, Texas, not the best place to find some obscure style of formal shirt. Looks like I will be forced to wear a waistcoat...


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

barrettdudley said:


> Ughhhh! That Thomas Pink one would have been PERFECT. Now, I need this thing for tomorrow and I have had zero luck. Unfortunately, I am in Austin, Texas, not the best place to find some obscure style of formal shirt. Looks like I will be forced to wear a waistcoat...


You better not be wearing a high-cut, 6-button waistcoat. A cummerbund is a lot more stylish than one of those. Nothing is worse than a high-cut waistcoat. How about a shirt with normal buttons? James Bond wore those with his dinner jacket more than anything else. That you should have no problem finding.


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## Faux Brummell (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry to resurrect a super old thread, but any chance you have a photo of that waistcoat?



upr_crust said:


> For myself, I prefer waistcoat/vest to cummerbund, as I find them more comfortable to wear, and I happened upon a RLPL grey silk jacquard waistcoat (three-button, low-cut) for $30 at my local Syms several years ago, which rather clinched the deal.


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

Faux Brummell said:


> Sorry to resurrect a super old thread, but any chance you have a photo of that waistcoat?


By sheer chance, I found photos showing the waistcoat - last worn, I believe, in late 2016. Here they are . . .


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## Mute (Apr 3, 2005)

It's not a good look. If you don't like cummerbunds - I don't - go with a low cut waistcoat. Bond gets away with it because he's a fictional character portrayed by guys who are in their physical prime. They'd probably look good in Bermuda shorts and flip flops.


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