# Who else thinks Black Morning Suits are awesome?



## ClassicStyle (Jan 17, 2009)

Grey or Grey chalk striped pants, white shirt, tailcoat like jacket.


----------



## My Pet. A Pantsuit (Dec 25, 2008)

I really would like to wear this on a day-to-day basis.


----------



## ClassicStyle (Jan 17, 2009)

My Pet said:


> I really would like to wear this on a day-to-day basis.


Exactly.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I like morning wear, but not when the trousers are slung down the hips or pleated like the modern models are wearing.


----------



## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

No...


----------



## NEW_Rome (Oct 29, 2008)

I love them. I have gray-check, flat-front pants and would love to purchase a black morning jacket. I would wear it if I could get one.


----------



## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Dude's pants on the bottom are way too tight. He is also poorly accessorized. 

Where did you get these (live) pictures from, a tux rental's web site?


----------



## NEW_Rome (Oct 29, 2008)

In that B/W picture it appears he has silk semi-faced lapels. Is this correct on morning dress at all? As I understood it morning dress is for daytime wear. Thus, no silk-facing.


----------



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Jovan said:


> I like morning wear, but not when the trousers are slung down the hips or pleated like the modern models are wearing.


With a belt too probably.


----------



## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

NEW_Rome said:


> In that B/W picture it appears he has silk semi-faced lapels. Is this correct on morning dress at all? As I understood it morning dress is for daytime wear. Thus, no silk-facing.


He's also wearing a tophat, which I believe is not the *most *proper hat, but whatever. Looks sharp.


----------



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

brokencycle said:


> He's also wearing a tophat, which I believe is not the *most *proper hat, but whatever. Looks sharp.


It is proper.


----------



## Phileas Fogg (Oct 20, 2008)

Both the tophat and the silk faced lapels are actually correct, although the silk faced lapels have gone out of fashion (or just use) something like 60 years ago.
The frock coat which was the most formal daytime wear (one step up if compared to morning coat) came almost only with silk faced lapels.

The tophat is still much in use with the morning coat. 

I like very much formal daytime dress and would like to use it more often. As it is I have to settle more often than I would like to with semi-formal daytime dress (black jacket and striped/checked trousers).
Still my morning coat (oxford grey) sees some use now and then.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg


----------



## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

The model's waistcoat's buttons are too fat apart and the fit just look awful all around. The trousers sit too low and the reverse pleats look awful. Morning trousers should have a flat front or forward pleats.


----------



## Cavaliere (Oct 25, 2006)

It is a splendid outfit: when it is done properly! Alas, the above is not. The first rule is that it should fit properly and more snugly than a lounge suit. The outfit is at its best with a DB pale-mustard or buff-coloured waistcoat with revers and a spread collar shirt, preferably with detachable collar. I also think that midnight-blue is more urbane than black. Finally, to avoid the 'hired' look, I tend to wear it with a striped shirt with detachable white collar.


----------



## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

I prefer grey.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

ClassicStyle said:


> Grey or Grey chalk striped pants, white shirt, tailcoat like jacket.


BTW a morning coat is a type of tailcoat. There are actually quite a few different types of tailcoats. The tailcoat for evening wear is called a "dress coat". Also a "jacket" is a species of the genus "coat" that denotes a shorter coat. Although morning coats are shorter than dress coats, they are still not short enough to be called "jackets". However, I've notice a tendency for some women to point to my knee length overcoat and say "hey - nice, jacket" :crazy:

As for the term "suit", I tend to prefer to be strict with the use of the term, and reserve it for when the coat and trousers match. The word "suit" probably comes from the old French word "si(e)ute", or "suite" in modern French, and which means "in succession" (ibid Shorter Oxford Dictionary). "Suit" is sometimes also defined as "a set of clothing intended to be worn together". However, by that loose definition I see no reason t-shirts and jeans can't be called a "suit".

A morning coat and non-matching trousers should be called morning dress. A morning suit is something very specific and consists of a tailcoat with matching trousers. It is usually dove grey or black. In the latter case, it is called a _mourning suit_ because it is worn to funerals (Whife, London, 1949).


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

My Pet said:


> I really would like to wear this on a day-to-day basis.


I believe that within living memory, managers and CEOs sometimes still did wear morning dress to work.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

NEW_Rome said:


> In that B/W picture it appears he has silk semi-faced lapels. Is this correct on morning dress at all? As I understood it morning dress is for daytime wear. Thus, no silk-facing.


It isn't really done any more. I've seen one old British film set in the Victorian era showing a morning coat with silk facings, but it was rare back then and even more unusual today. Frock coat usually took silk facings (except for funerals) but not morning coats. Likewise, they used to wear patent leather shoes with their morning clothes.

However, silk edging like the one on Prince Charles' coat is both acceptable and highly stylish.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

A couple of other style hints.

Morning coats were usually quite short originally. During the latter 20th century they started to get rather long. I find it makes them look a bit frumpy. If you ever try on a morning coat that is a bit shorter (5-6" above the knee) with a more sharply cut away front, it is amazing how much younger and sportier it looks. 

The other thing I like is this:



Notice how the points on the single breasted waistcoat peak out just a little bit below the coat when it is closed. Very nice. However, the period style was for a baggier trouser - which I believe Prince Phillip has recently had recut to slim them down. 

Brace trousers made from heavier weighted dress trousering, which are slim cut and flat fronted in the Edwardian manner, elongate the legs like nothing else. The front edge is like a razor blade and the fronts are kept totally creaseless by the constant tug of the braces. Definitely something to try before you die!


----------



## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Sator said:


> It isn't really done any more. I've seen one old British film set in the Victorian era showing a morning coat with silk facings, but it was rare back then and even more unusual today. Frock coat usually took silk facings (except for funerals) but not morning coats. Likewise, they used to wear patent leather shoes with their morning clothes.
> 
> However, silk edging like the one on Prince Charles' coat is both acceptable and highly stylish.


That vest is just bitchin'!


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I am fortunate enough to be able to attend events thoughout the year where I can wear morning dress. I'm still trying to assemble the 'perfect' set. I am currently in need of a better fitting morning coat and I may go through the MTM route.


----------



## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Sator said:


> I believe that within living memory, managers and CEOs sometimes still did wear morning dress to work.


I think NYSE floor traders did before WWII.


----------



## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Orsini said:


> That vest is just bitchin'!


That's a great vest. I want one.


----------



## ClassicStyle (Jan 17, 2009)




----------



## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

The waistcoat should have lapels, IMHO


----------



## Adagio (Aug 2, 2007)

Roikins said:


> That's a great vest. I want one.


It's called a slipped waistcoat.

See here for a discussion. https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=71357&highlight=slipped+waistcoat

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=73684&highlight=slipped+waistcoat


----------



## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

If you'd like to wear morning dress on a daily basis, then move to Japan. I hear that some of the more significant company Directors are still expected to do so for their position!


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Literide said:


> The waistcoat should have lapels, IMHO


Some say that a city waistcoat shouldn't have lapels. However, it is an odd rule in that it applies only to single breasted W-Cs, and not to evening dress.


----------



## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

Excellent for formal occasions


----------



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Mr. Pipps said:


> If you'd like to wear morning dress on a daily basis, then move to Japan. I hear that some of the more significant company Directors are still expected to do so for their position!


I'm quite impressed by the Nihonjin regarding that.


----------



## Aristo (Feb 20, 2009)

JibranK said:


> I'm quite impressed by the Nihonjin regarding that.


 The nihonjins even have classy butler cafes where the well-mannered and good-looking waiters serve you in their morning coats and evening tails like ye' good ol' butlers. Ladies pay a premium to be treated like a princess there. Anyway, I too, share the great interest in morning coats and I do own one myself but it is almost impossible to find an event to wear it to in my country, save for wedding photoshoots.


----------



## chas (Jan 16, 2007)

This is a great thread but now for the big question....what are the non-bespoke options today. I like the Brooks Golden Fleece but the notch lapels are killing me.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Doesn't look like many. Pakeman makes one but I haven't heard how good it is.

https://www.pakeman.co.uk/products.php?cat=25


----------



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

chas said:


> This is a great thread but now for the big question....what are the non-bespoke options today. I like the Brooks Golden Fleece but the notch lapels are killing me.


Ede and Ravenscroft makes excellent RTW morningwear.


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Literide said:


> The waistcoat should have lapels, IMHO


Sure glade you write here. You certainly give some of the best advice around here. Dependable.


----------



## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

It's only relatively recently that the Elders at St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh have ceased to wear a morning suit on an every Sunday basis and now reserve the wearing for special occasions.


----------



## suitandtieguy (Mar 9, 2007)

Morning wear is amazing. My partner bought it for me to wear to a afternoon wedding we attended last summer. I was self concious at first and reluctant to wear it but it felt great. The top hat was a beautiful finishing touch. Not to mention getting to wear the great vest.
The one model looks like his tie isn't tightened, I hate that.


----------



## mikevienna (Aug 10, 2008)

I tend to see alot of people wearing morning suits or stollers over here for special events in my masonic lodge. They look great I have to say.

Mike


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

chas said:


> This is a great thread but now for the big question....what are the non-bespoke options today. I like the Brooks Golden Fleece but the notch lapels are killing me.


E&R all the way.

There are also some vintage ones on eBay but you must know what is appropriate. I would avoid getting cashmere stripes (morning trousers) from eBay as many of the modern ones are not worth the money you pay for them; some are poly-wool blend, some are badly cut and some are just hideous. A vintage pair that fits is rare.

Pakeman makes a mean pair of cashmere stripes. I have a pair and they are my favourite.

For waistcoats, E&R, Pakeman and David Edward. Get a DB one as it has more gravitas than a SB and shows you mean business (it is doubtful that anyone else that has rented morning wear will have a DB one). Avoid brocade or such nonsense and go for a plain buff (biege) linen or mid-grey wool.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I wish I had an event for morning attire.

charlie500: How is the rise on the Pakeman trousers?


----------



## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Jovan said:


> I wish I had an event for morning attire.
> 
> charlie500: How is the rise on the Pakeman trousers?


Nice and high. The trousers hang at the waist.


----------



## MOET49 (Dec 8, 2008)

*morning dress*

the most elegant llook--i wish I had one justn to wear to Sunday brunch orr at any time just to make myself happy!. Where can one assemble this look?


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

JibranK said:


> Nice and high. The trousers hang at the waist.


I have to ask, when have you had an occasion for morning wear? I don't mean to deride your age whatsoever, but when I was 18 I hardly even had an event to wear a suit!


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

They are higher than your average almost falling off the hips with bum sticking out pair. 

I just had a pair of my normal suit trousers tailored to have a mini-fishtail back and I may get my Pakeman's to the tailors to add that little detail in if I feel like it in the future. 

I am lucky to have a few ocassions to warrant the need for morning dress (learned society meetings mostly). I suppose you have to actively look for such events in the US or join some club or whatever.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks, I was just wondering about that because the website pictures the men with unflattering-ly long waistcoats that I suspected may have been to cover a modern lower rise. I absolutely hate the long waist coat, short rise look. It's better than two inches of shirt blousing out with a belt, though.


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I've just got an e-mail from David Edward.

Their morning coat online ordering service begins in July 09 but you can order now. Prices are £465 for the morning coat and £195 for the cashmere stripes; made to order in regular sizing (i.e. 36, 38, etc up to 54; S, R and L). Can send cloth swatches and there is a choice of 10 linings.


----------



## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

I like morning dress. The one's pictured in the OP, however, are not good examples.


----------



## flatsixcrazy (Jul 1, 2008)

Thanks for the info. About $1000 for morning dress?. That is f..king awsome. I was going to drop $1600 on the BB's get up.



Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> I've just got an e-mail from David Edward.
> 
> Their morning coat online ordering service begins in July 09 but you can order now. Prices are £465 for the morning coat and £195 for the cashmere stripes; made to order in regular sizing (i.e. 36, 38, etc up to 54; S, R and L). Can send cloth swatches and there is a choice of 10 linings.


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

BB's morning coat, from what I heard, has notched lapels which is incorrect for this day and age anyways. 

A full set of morning wear can be had for less than a grand if you go down the vintage route coupled with some sensible new bits and pieces.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with step lapels on a morning coat in my opinion. However, when a M-C has a single button closure if should take pointed lapels. Only M-Cs with a two or three button closure should take step lapels.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Sure, but how many morning coats will even be made with two or three buttons now? That's something that seems to have stayed in those past catalogue illustrations.


----------



## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

flatsixcrazy said:


> Thanks for the info. About $1000 for morning dress?. That is f..king awsome. I was going to drop $1600 on the BB's get up.


One possibly important difference, depending on where and when you plan to wear daytime formal clothes, is that the English stuff is likely made of a heavier wool than the Brooks Brothers morning coat. I've seen the Brooks coat and trousers in person at the Connecticut Avenue store in DC, and they seem to be made of a reasonably 'all-season' fabric.

My impression (and I could be wrong but it would be worth checking) is that English daytime formalwear is made of much heavier cloth. Unwearable in the USA from late spring to early fall.

Also, FWIW, the BB morning coat would be, like everything else their, subject to BB's frequent sales. I think the current one is 25% off if you use a BB credit card.


----------



## CPVS (Jul 17, 2005)

Orsini said:


> That vest is just bitchin'!


And he's wearing a slip under it as well -- most appropriate.



Literide said:


> I think NYSE floor traders did before WWII.


I remember my father saying his pastor wore one each Sunday -- and that was at a rural church in Wisconsin.


----------



## NorthShorer (Apr 17, 2009)

*morning dress at an Aussie bush wedding!*

My second post on AAAC! :icon_smile: I'm still learning the ropes, and am an amateur, so bear with me...

For my recent wedding I decided to wear morning dress but (as I have seen other posters imply on AAAC) Australia is probably the most casually dressed and informal country in the world - a byproduct of our culture and weather, I think.

Wasn't going to shell out a fortune on a made-to-measure or bespoke morning coat that I will hardly wear again (I live in fear of my mortgage, and the onslaught of school fees that will come soon enough when little ones arrive) so got a black morning coat off the rack at Henry Bucks and had it altered. Also got the stripy trousers there.

Apparently they do a decent trade in the lead-up to Melbourne Cup, Oaks etc. I was interested to hear this, as this is pretty much the only public occasion to wear morning dress in Australia, now that we don't knight governors anymore and the "modern" vice-regal style seems much less old-school - what would Sir Roden Cutler VC think?  Shame on you Quentin Bryce!

In summary:
RULES FOLLOWED: Ede and Ravenscroft double-breasted buff coloured waistcoat, top hat worn (albeit grey), nice safe silk pocket square. I INSISTED on a double-breasted waistcoat, but you can't get one in Australia unless it's bespoke.

RULES BROKEN: White shirt worn with tie made from same material as bride's dress, a sort of darkish ivory (I Think? Don't know what you'd call it, looks sort of very very very light brownish rather than pure white) but it placated the bride, and it complimented the waistcoat nicely so I didn't care. I have a number of UK weddings on the horizon so will wear different shirt+tie combinations with the rest of the ensemble.

Note that this also means I knew what colour and fabric the bride's dress was before the wedding, but again I didn't care.

RULE VARIATION: I wore one of my many pairs of black RM Williams boots (it was a bush wedding, and her dad runs cattle).

Most importantly, the day was fun, and the recpetion was top-notch.


----------



## RebelLaw (Apr 10, 2009)

I am a big fan of the style. I hope one day to be able wear and own such an outfit.


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

NorthShorer said:


> My second post on AAAC! :icon_smile: I'm still learning the ropes, and am an amateur, so bear with me...
> 
> For my recent wedding I decided to wear morning dress but (as I have seen other posters imply on AAAC) Australia is probably the most casually dressed and informal country in the world - a byproduct of our culture and weather, I think.
> 
> ...


I would think a vintage black silk topper would look better and can be had for mere pennies on eBay in good condition (personally, I feel grey toppers should be reserved for Ascot or maybe grey morning suit).

Good on you for the DB waistcoat!

Any pics?

For the UK, get a light blue tunic shirt with white stripes and a detachable starched day collar. Plain silver or a black-white houndstooth/shepherd's plaid necktie. Shoes: black Oxford toe-caps.


----------



## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

NorthShorer said:


> My second post on AAAC! :icon_smile: I'm still learning the ropes, and am an amateur, so bear with me...
> 
> For my recent wedding I decided to wear morning dress but (as I have seen other posters imply on AAAC) Australia is probably the most casually dressed and informal country in the world - a byproduct of our culture and weather, I think.
> 
> ...


I am not that familiar with RM Williams but if your boots are a smart pair of chelsea boots, they are great with morning dress if they are bulled up.

*W_B*


----------

