# Bespoke Shoe Price/Quality/Fit thread



## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Gents-
For those who have made use of Lobb, Graziano, Claverly or any other Bespoke makers I've neglected to name, could you comment on your maker's pricing and quality of goods. Also, any comments on fit, or problems therewith. Contact information would be helpful as well. Any input is, of course, greatly appreciated! (Medwards, if this has been done already in recent times, my apologies)
Best 
Y

_Moderator's Note: Link to Jcusey's overview of _bespoke shoemakers.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

*Lobb Paris*: Best across the board. Oddly, the first pair they made for me was a disaster. The shoes didn't fit and were ugly as hell, really bulbous and not elegant at all. I called them the "ballistic missile submarines." I complained, and they took them back without a peep and started the whole process over again, including carving a new last. The resulting shoes are gorgeous: best fit, most elegant last shape, the best make and finishing, and the best leather. I know, or hear often, that all bespoke makers have access to the same skins, and I used to believe it. But this leather just looks and feels better, and it shines up incredibly. Lobb Paris famously makes a clear plastic try-on shoe, supposedly so that the fitter can see how your foot settles inside the shoe. Well, they made TWO of those for me, and the result was the aforementioned ballistic missile submarines. For the second go-round, they made a leather try-on, and sliced it up during the fitting to see inside. The final shoes were, as noted, stunning. I don't know if this is universally the case, but it made me very suspicious of the whole plastic try-on concept. If were to advise a new customer, I would suggest the he request a leather try-on. The price is numbing.

*Cleverley*: My first bespoke shoemaker and still my "go to" choice. Lovely, bespoke looking lasts that cannot be confused with RTW. They really make YOUR FOOT, which results not only in a smaller shoe overall, but one that is decidedly quirky. At least it is in my case, and in several others I have seen. One thing I like about the Cleverley shoe is the narrowness and precision of the heel (the upper heel, that is). It's the one area where the fit slightly exceeds the Lobb Paris last. The Cleverley shoe is also lighter and springier than the others, noticably so. No one does a chisel toe better, in my opinion, though I am becoming less enamored of those and more a partisan of a rounded toe. I used to think it madness that anyone would go to Cleverley and not get the house chisel, but now ... They don't do a try-on shoe, but they do provide at least one fitting in your unfinished (i.e., temporary sole and cork heel) shoe. In my case, that was all it took, and the last they made me in 1995 still fits like a glove. (NB that John Carnera, now retired, made my last.) If I had a complaint, I would say that the finishing and construction could be a little better, neater, and cleaner. Price is about a third less than Lobb Paris.

*Gaziano & Girling*: I had shoes made when Tony Gaziano was with Edward Green; I have yet to try the new firm. The make, finishing, and antiquing are all just a nose beyond Cleverley, or maybe a bit more than a nose. It's noticable, especially in the sole and waist of the shoes, and in the antiquing (which is really quite a bit better). My shoes do not fit quite as precisely as the Cleverleys, and had to go back once for minor adjustments. Like Cleverley, you get a fitting but not a try-on shoe. Tony definitely has a different design aesthetic. He prefers a more contemporary look, and sort of "stylizes" the last to make the shoe sleeker and a bit longer. Since I have big feet already, I'm not sure this is best look for me. Price is about the same as Cleverley, maybe 50 GBP more.


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## bespoke therapy (May 12, 2005)

If I can piggyback onto Mantons points- a daunting task I might add..

I would say Cleverley for me has been the best fit..and, for those of us who like the Russia leather- almost mandatory to go to them.

Tony made the best looking shoe for me while at EG- ironically, he had measured me for my last while at Cleverleys..

Lobbs St James has made the most solid looking shoe- and it has grown on me - it just has a presence. The three piece shoe trees are works of sculpture. It is also the shoe with the most amount space inside- but still supremely comfortable- and the one I use for long distance airflights..so my swollen feet after 14 hours flying time still fit into the shoes. 

Would love to try Lobb PAris- but I dont frequent that city, and given I dont live in NYC its hard to be there for their bespoke measurement visits.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

My first experience with bespoke shoemakers was with *John Lobb (St. James's*). They made a beautifully crafted though absolutely traditional shoe. Bespoke Therapy's adjective of "solid" is probably accurate, but do not confuse that with "clunky." The "blob" term -- so often used affectionately -- is cute but terribly misleading. The shoes they made for me were not inelegant. However, there is no question that John Lobb St. James's has been clearly on the fit and comfort side of the design equation. Of course, in those days I knew -- and cared -- very little about such things and was really just looking for an attractive shoe that truly fit. Lobb was very expensive back then (it remains rather expensive today). Money was a factor and I decided to look elsewhere. I was subsequently introduced to John Carnera and George Glasgow who were then at *New & Lingwood *crafting much more elegant shoe at what to my mind was a far more reasonable price. John Carnera made my last at N&L. The shoes they made for me were simply wonderful...and all but one pair are still in use. I could not have imagined a better outcome. However, as many participants know, George and John subsequently left New & Lingwood to open *G. J. Cleverley*. It took me a couple of years to follow them. This was mainly because my last stayed with New & Lingwood; I was reluctant to start the process all over again; and it was not clear that their new venture would be successful. Then -- as now -- it is exceedingly difficult for new businesses such as this to make a go of it. Contrary to what one might have imagined, New & Lingwood's bespoke operation faltered and Cleverley thrived. During part of this time, Cleverley has been the home to both Paul Davies and Tony Gaziano so there is some intersection among these British makers.

I have now been a Cleverley customer for more than a decade (the now-retired John Carnera made my present last as well). It has been an excellent relationship. I believe that manton's take on their product is spot on. They craft a very fine and classic British shoe, but fit is their principal concern. They have little interest in pushing the style envelope. And they will be very forthright in telling you if there is some style or feature that they do not think they can complete in a highly satisfactory manner.Their shoes are very neat and light. While known for their chiseled toe, I have yet to have them make me up a shoe with this feature. They have been exceptional in terms of customer service and have remedied any little problem without hesitancy. They recently redid a pair of chestnut Adelaides for me that turned out a darker brown than I had anticipated. I was willing to accept the shoes, but they would not hear of it. While they certainly have access to a wide range of leathers (in addition to the oft-mentioned Russian calf), they are not as well known for their finishes, antiquing or exotic skins as some other makers. If you are interested in more stylized footwear or exotic skins or finishes, you might find another maker who better suits your needs. That said, my advice remains rather straightforward: if you are looking for very classic, elegant British footwear that fits well Cleverley is an excellent choice.

For those looking for a good overview of bespoke shoemkers, I would suggest that reviewing jcusey's wonderful thread linked here and now in the original posting is a very good place to start.

And here is a thread that includes a good number of images of Cleverley shoes that have been made for various Forum participants,


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

I can also suggest Dimitri Gomez of Crockett and Jones in Paris. His prices are lower than either Lobb and slightly higher than Cleverley and G&G. To my eye, his making and finishing is as good as any I have ever seen. His styling is not as avant-garde as G&G, but is more forward than many of the Londoon shops. I have only used his demi-mesure (bespoke make on existing lasts) because I do not get to Paris very often, but I was referred to him by a few of his bespoke customers who are extremely happy with the fit.

One thing about Dimitri is that he always wants to do more. The last time I was at the shop, he followed us down the street half a block because he had a slightly different idea for the lining color of the shoes. If the stock lasts (and they come in many different widths per size) work for you, I would suggest the demi-mesure service. Prices are low (1250Eu), everything is available except a radical departure from the last shape and the make is superb. If they are not right, the bespoke is 2500Eu.

Edit: French goods are priced VAT included, so the prices are more like 1000 and 2000 Euros which makes them an even better option.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

I'm not really in the market for another shoemaker, but I would nonetheless love to try Gomez and Suzuki.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I've been pleased with my initial shoe pair and ongoing second pair deliberations with Jason Amesbury, formerly of Lobb St. James. The shoes fit perfectly capturing my slight L-R difference well. I was impressed by the number of arch measurements Jason took. Shoes are comfortable, hard wearing, and stylish. Leather quality on the sock and exterior is excellent.

He does more of a conservative shoe in some ways than others but that fits the banking environment I often find myself in. I think a particular strength for Jason is the selection of leathers. He has some deep inventory of skins for a smaller maker.

Jason will soon begin working on my second pair (some sort of dark brown oxford) although I've been slow to nail down the details.

Sidenote: Jason is a fun person to grab a pint with and is a bit of a walking historian on Lobb and the UK makers.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Not much I can add about *Tony Gaziano*, except to agree with Manton that his last shapes are contemporary and a little stylized, which on my inelegant feet is a good thing. He realized a design I wanted perfectly, including some baroque punching demands (like the Wicker Om), and succeeded in making a pair of shoes which are graceful and beautiful, and nailed a color and antiquing request. I had a fitting on the shoe itself; Tony offered to fit me again on the completed shoes but I simply had him send them over as I can't make it to England very often. Fit is good; still breaking them in.

My local shoemaker, *Anthony Delos*, is priced a bit less than Gomez or Gaziano. He did two fittings for me on a trial shoe in leather and cork sole which he subsequently sliced up to see the distribution of weight. So far his bespoke loafers fit exceptionally well and are gorgeous. They are less streamlined than the Gazianos, but I wasn't looking for shoes as streamlined as the Gazianos. My impression is that rather like described with Cleverley Delos' shoes take after the foot, and in that event they took after the foot very flatteringly. I believe the design I requested is a difficult one, and it's well carried out. Fit so far is very good; he even built in some arch support so the shoe very much hugs the foot. His shoes seem to reflect Lobb Paris' sleekness with substance.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

My first bespoke shoes were from Cleverley and Tony Gaziano made the second pair that I had from them, though with the Cleverley sensibility. 

I followed Tony to Green because that maker had been the source of my machine-made shoes for many years. Now that he's departed, I've elected to return to Cleverley for more traditional execution. Shoes that make a statement to the extent of Vass or Tony's newer designs are not for me. 

And as someone else mentioned, Cleverley's service is impeccable. Hopefully they will continue making shoes for as long as I need them.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

While it has been a while since I've utilized the services of a bespoke shoemaker ... my best experience has been with the Cleverley fellows. As with some of the other members ... it started at New & Lingwood ... and for me that was in the early 1980s -- or maybe the late 70s? -- whatever the reality, it has been a while.

I can certainly appreciate what Manton says about their shoe being smaller and decidedly quirky. In fact, it was quite a shock for me the first time I saw a pair of their shoes made specifically for me.

My very first thought was more of a question ... "My feet are going to fit in those?" Not only did they look too small ... never before had I seen so many curved or undulating surfaces on a shoe &#8230; in places I didn't expect to see such shapes. They looked like no other shoes I'd ever seen ... precisely because they weren't like any other shoes I'd ever seen. But for certain, something about them was beautiful. Moreover, I came to realize that they were a second skin to my feet.

In a good RTW shoe I take (or used to take) a US size 9AA ... and just about any good quality shoe in an AA width is more elegant when compared with a wider shoe &#8230; be it ready-made or bespoke. The only exception for me is perhaps a pair of Cleverleys in any width.

Unfortunately of late my foot seems to be a little larger than it once was. I am reaching a point that I'm outgrowing the comfort of my bespoke shoes. Like it or not -- well, I'm sure I will ... although my wallet may not -- I may be forced to return to an old habit. When I do, I hope the Cleverley men will take me on again.

Edit: Having a difficult time using italics ... _ word [\i] doesn't seem to work. Now watch it work as soon as I click save._


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

It's _ and [forward slash i]

 Now you see it[\i] because it's backward slash
 Now you dont_


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## bespoke therapy (May 12, 2005)

Using a car analogy, Lobb St James strikes me as a Rolls Royce, Tony G. as a Jaguar, and Cleverley as a Lexus. While I do not have personale experience of Lobb Paris, maybe they would be a Bentley?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

bespoke therapy said:


> Using a car analogy, Lobb St James strikes me as a Rolls Royce, Tony G. as a Jaguar, and Cleverley as a Lexus. While I do not have personale experience of Lobb Paris, maybe they would be a Bentley?


Cleverley is too traditional and old fashioned to be a Lexus, I think. Maybe it is the Jag? Tony is more of an Aston Martin.

LP as Bently? Not sure. Bentlies, from what little I know of them, are a lot like RRs, no? The LP shoe is much sleeker and (in my opinion) better made than the LSJ shoe.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

bespoke therapy said:


> Using a car analogy, Lobb St James strikes me as a Rolls Royce, Tony G. as a Jaguar, and Cleverley as a Lexus. While I do not have personale experience of Lobb Paris, maybe they would be a Bentley?


Cleverley is a Daimler.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Thank you bengal-stripe, dsylexai can be so frustrating!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

LOL. Berluti bespoke must be a Ferrari then. If Lobb is a Rolls then Amesbury is a sporty Bentley.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

manton said:


> Tony is more of an Aston Martin.
> ...
> The LP shoe is much sleeker and (in my opinion) better made than the LSJ shoe.


I was thinking the same thing about G&G being like AM, though Jags are starting to resemble AMs more and more. Or perhaps they're a bit closer to TVR in terms of forward styling ...

And your opinion on the quality of LSJ compared to LP is shared by certain bespoke shoemakers as well.

--Andre


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

A lot of time is being spent on the English makers. I personally think that while the lasts and styling are certainly classic and the finishing of the ones that I have seen seems to be fine, they are not alone at the "top of the heap".

From what I can tell the best of the Parisian makers make a better finished more interesting shoe. I am no expert, but Gomez, Lobb Paris and Corthay all make shoes that simply look better made than any of the London makers. The other well known Paris makers look to have good quality, but the styling leaves a lot to be desired.

The best of the Italian makers also turn out what look to be better made shoes than some of the Brits. Again, styling can be a bit more suspect, but like with clothing, the sewing and finishing seems to be a bit better done. The prices are also around half...


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

iammatt said:


> A lot of time is being spent on the English makers. I personally think that while the lasts and styling are certainly classic and the finishing of the ones that I have seen seems to be fine, they are not a t the "top of the heap".
> 
> From what I can tell the best of the Parisian makers make a better finished more interesting shoe. I am no expert, but Gomez, Lobb Paris and Corthay all make shoes that simply look better made than any of the London makers. THe other well known Paris makers look to have good quality, but the styling leaves a lot to be desired.
> 
> The best of the Italian makers also turn out what look to be better made shoes than most of the Brits. Again, styling can be a bit more suspect, but like with clothing, the sewing and finishing seems to be a bit better done. The prices are also around half...


I think it's just a difference in what people want for themselves. As you know, there is no single standard any longer. Your Rubinacci, my Anderson & Sheppard and Manton's Shattuck are all world class in their way.

I don't want "interesting" shoes. I want them to be classic, correct, and well shaped. I probably spent too much time in England.

I would like lower prices though.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

Just a guess, iammatt, but I suspect the emphasis on the Englishmakers stems from the fact that they are the ones who travel to the major U.S. cities where so many AAAC members live. I would bet that if the French and Italians travelled as much, we would be reading more about them. Instead, many of us are forced to rely on rjman and a few other European correspondents to inflame our jealousy.

Nothing makes this tethered American more annoyed than the constant mention of the ready availability of better quality bespoke shoes, suits etc. at lower cost in Italy or France.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Will said:


> I think it's just a difference in what people want for themselves. As you know, there is no single standard any longer. Your Rubinacci, my Anderson & Sheppard and Manton's Shattuck are all world class in their way.
> 
> I don't want "interesting" shoes. I want them to be classic, correct, and well shaped. I probably spent too much time in England.
> 
> I would like lower prices though.


I couldn't have said it better than you did. I just wanted to add that there are other makers worth considering, especially for those people who could swing $1500 for a pair of bespoke shoes but not $2500.

Perhaps my statement that the Italians and French were better was a little too strong. I was hoping ot point out that you could go to all three countries and not feel like you were sacrificing quality in any one.

I think that the idea that Italian shoes are only flashy and never correct comes from the RTW available here. It has been said many times on the LL and also here, that every really top notch Italian maker is veddy, veddy British. In my experience, it is the French(other than Lobb and Gomez) who put out the really flash shoes. Out of all the makers that I have seen, Gomez really comes closest to the perfect blend of conservatism and interest.

Dopey is also right. Travelling and language are both problems.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Iammatt, I agree somewhat with what you said. To me, the Parisian aesthetic is, at its best, the best that bespoke shoes can be. I find the Italians, by and large, to be a bit too stylized for me. Gatto would be the exception, but he does not travel and does not speak English. And, unique among bespoke shoemakers, he actually requires a minimum order! The English, by contrast, are sometimes a bit boring. But I prefer boring and traditional ("correct") to fashion forward. The Parisians combine the best of both worlds: not outre, not boring. I wish I could justifiy the hideous expense of Lobb Paris, or that I got to Paris more so that I could try Gomez. C'est la vie.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

manton said:


> Iammatt, I agree somewhat with what you said. To me, the Parisian aesthetic is, at its best, the best that bespoke shoes can be. I find the Italians, by and large, to be a bit too stylized for me. Gatto would be the exception, but he does not travel and does not speak English. And, unique among bespoke shoemakers, he actually requires a minimum order! The English, by contrast, are sometimes a bit boring. But I prefer boring and traditional ("correct") to fashion forward. The Parisians combine the best of both worlds: not outre, not boring. I wish I could justifiy the hideous expense of Lobb Paris, or that I got to Paris more so that I could try Gomez. C'est la vie.


Gatto just sold out to Lattanzi . Minimum will probably go down, but prices will definitely go up.

How much does Lobb Paris run nowadays? It must be horrible based your satisfaction and lack of interesting in going it again.


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

manton said:


> And, unique among bespoke shoemakers, he actually requires a minimum order!


That's true, and also doesn't accept credit cards. Considering what shoes cost, what a combo - minimum of what, 5 pairs, at those prices? Could make things more complicated for visitors, esp. foreigners. Cash, check or wire transfer?
But who knows, now that Lattanzi has bought Gatto these things could change - or maybe already have?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

iammatt said:


> Gatto just sold out to Lattanzi . Minimum will probably go down, but prices will definitely go up.


 Man, that guy made good shoes.



> How much does Lobb Paris run nowadays? It must be horrible based your satisfaction and lack of interesting in going it again.


I don't even know. I doubt I want to know. $4,500?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

mmathew said:


> That's true, and also doesn't accept credit cards. Considering what shoes cost, what a combo - minimum of what, 5 pairs, at those prices? Could make things more complicated for visitors, esp. foreigners. Cash, check or wire transfer?
> But who knows, now that Lattanzi has bought Gatto these things could change - or maybe already have?


I am sure they take credit cards now, but Lattanzi is not so good with English either.

Gomez refuses to ship to the US which is also a huge hassle. Maybe he will if you talk to him a bit, but my French is no longer good enough to convince anybody of anything.


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

iammatt said:


> How much does Lobb Paris run nowadays?


As of last fall the price was from 3800 Euro base plus 500 for shoe trees. Don't remember if 3800 Euro covers the cost of the last.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

mmathew said:


> As of last fall the price was from 3800 Euro base plus 500 for shoe trees. Don't remember if 3800 Euro covers the cost of the last.


That is odd. I paid less, and my price definitely included the trees (and bags, for that matter). There was no last charge.


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

You're likely right. As of last fall Gatto didn't take CCs, but then again Lattanzi only bought Gatto earlier this year. As someone mentioned earlier I imagine that Gatto prices will increase, as Lattanzi's shoes were already more expensive.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Wait, are we talking about LP or Gatto? In June of 2004 (last time I was there) Gatto was EU 2,500, Lobb Paris was EU 3,650. Can't remember if Gatto included trees. LP definitely did.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

manton said:


> Wait, are we talking about LP or Gatto? In June of 2004 (last time I was there) Gatto was EU 2,500, Lobb Paris was EU 3,650. Can't remember if Gatto included trees. LP definitely did.


Gatto was EU 12,500 but you got more shoes for your money.


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

Manton, when did you commission your shoes? The prices I saw were from the price list they had when I visited the shop on rue Boissy D'Anglas on the day it re-opened last year.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Will said:


> Gatto was EU 12,500 but you got more shoes for your money.


Right. Three.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

mmathew said:


> Manton, when did you commission your shoes? The prices I saw were from the price list they had when I visited the shop on rue Boissy D'Anglas on the day it re-opened last year.


Before that. I can understand a price increase from 3,650 to 3,800. But all of the sudden adding a 500 surcharge for trees is a huge jump.


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

Sorry Manton. I sort of went back and forth there.
The 3800 figure may have been with trees, 3300 + 500 for trees? Did LP charge more for the initial pair to cover the cost of making the last? Somehow I remember the total for a first pair plus trees as 4300, and that the price list was very itemized. But you're the one who's worked with them, so I'm happy to defer to you.
2500 is what Gatto ran last year too.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

mmathew said:


> Did LP charge more for the initial pair to cover the cost of making the last?


No. The absurdly high price at least covers that.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

You start to get the idea that perhaps London, Paris and Rome are just expensive places. I certainly can't think of any cities that I would rather live in.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

iammatt said:


> You start to get the idea that perhaps London, Paris and Rome are just expensive places.


London is much worse than the other two.



> I certainly can't think of any cities that I would rather live in.


Funny, if I could live anywhere, I think I would live on Russian Hill. Or maybe on Gough, fronting Lafayette park. Ah, home ...


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

manton said:


> London is much worse than the other two.
> 
> Funny, if I could live anywhere, I think I would live on Russian Hill. Or maybe on Gough, fronting Lafayette park. Ah, home ...


On the front side of Russian Hill, facing the North bay.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Will said:


> On the front side of Russian Hill, facing the North bay.


That's where I live. Perhaps we are neighbors!


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

iammatt said:


> That is where I live. Perhaps we are neighbors!


We're in Pacific Heights looking at the West bay. No complaints but Russian Hill is more classic San Francisco.

I still think occasionally of a place we really liked on Russian Hill about five years ago. But we bought a bigger country house instead.


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

I don't doubt that London is extremely expensive, but considering that I haven't been to the UK in 5 years or so I can't really compare it to the big cities I've been to more recently. I thought that Paris was much more expensive than any place I'd been to in Italy.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

mmathew said:


> I thought that Paris was much more expensive than any place I'd been to in Italy.


True. But London is worse yet. Terrifying if you have to live there.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

mmathew said:


> I don't doubt that London is extremely expensive, but considering that I haven't been to the UK in 5 years or so I can't really compare it to the big cities I've been to more recently. I thought that Paris was much more expensive than any place I'd been to in Italy.


London is brutal. The prices numbers are about the same as Paris, but you have to pay in GBP instead of Euros. Housing is especially bad.

San Francisco is a little podunk peoples republic full of angry people in black clothing. It is situated perfectly and impossible to leave.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

dopey said:


> Just a guess, iammatt, but I suspect the emphasis on the Englishmakers stems from the fact that they are the ones who travel to the major U.S. cities where so many AAAC members live. I would bet that if the French and Italians travelled as much, we would be reading more about them. Instead, many of us are forced to rely on rjman and a few other European correspondents to inflame our jealousy.
> 
> Nothing makes this tethered American more annoyed than the constant mention of the ready availability of better quality bespoke shoes, suits etc. at lower cost in Italy or France.


I can understand your point, dopey, but I'm in Italy and France about as often as I'm in England ... perhaps more often ... and yet my preference is still the English shoemakers. As Will notes ... dress (including shoes) is a personal preference.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

I can hear my father in myself ... but uh, I can remember when my bespoke Cleverleys (in the New & Lingwood days) were about $500. Of course that was not the case when I stopped. But I can imagine it's going to be a shock when/if I return. Well, that's life.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Scott said:


> I can hear my father in myself ... but uh, I can remember when my bespoke Cleverleys (in the New & Lingwood days) were about $500.


I miss those days.


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## bob-k (Oct 9, 2006)

Thank you all for a most stimulating discussion. So, if I were to try to _approximately_ position each of the various mentioned bespoke makers on a continuum, from most conservative or traditional to most stylized or "fashion forward," would it would look somethinkg like this?

John Lobb St. James
Jason Amesbury
Cleverley
Anthony Delos
Dimitri Gomez / C&J Paris
Tony Gaziano
John Lobb Paris
Gatto
Vass
Lattanzi
Berluti
Corthay


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

I leave for a day, and a thread like this gets started? 

Most of what I would have written about this topic has already been brought up by others, but I do have a couple of things to add:

Many have mentioned that Tony Gaziano tends to be more fashion-forward and aggressive in his styling than Cleverley does; and it is true that by default, he will be. This means that if you go to him, order a pair of shoes, and leave all styling details completely to him, you will probably end up with a more aggressively-styled shoe than you would if you did the same thing with Cleverley. However, who does this? Tony is perfectly capable of making an excellent pair of conservatively-styled traditional round-toe cap-toes, if that's what you want. There will always be a certain tension between style and fit in bespoke shoes (unless, of course, your feet are perfect). I think that Tony would rather make a pair of beautiful shoes where certain compromises in fit have to be made to achieve the aesthetic, where Cleverley would care more about fit than style. Both could be pushed in the opposite direction, if that's what the customer wants, however.

Secondly, the quality of the sole and heel work on my shoes from Tony is demonstrably superior to that on the shoes I have from Cleverley: Tony's soles are smoother and more evenly-colored, his sole-edge staining is more consistent, and his shoes have the line between the bevelled waist and the heel where my Cleverley shoes do not (although some of their samples do, and I specifically requested this feature on my pair in progress).

Finally, I would take an unusual idea for a pair of shoes (and I do mean something truly unusual stylistically, not just a quirky combination of leathers or brogueing or something like that) to Tony before I would to Cleverley. Tony revels in novelty much more than Cleverley does.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

manton said:


> Lobb Paris famously makes a clear plastic try-on shoe, supposedly so that the fitter can see how your foot settles inside the shoe. Well, they made TWO of those for me, and the result was the aforementioned ballistic missile submarines. For the second go-round, they made a leather try-on, and sliced it up during the fitting to see inside. The final shoes were, as noted, stunning. I don't know if this is universally the case, but it made me very suspicious of the whole plastic try-on concept. If were to advise a new customer, I would suggest the he request a leather try-on.


For those of you who have used makers who include provas as part of their process, how much difference do you think it has made in the fit of the final product? One would expect that using a prova should lead to better results, but nobody has said that the Italian and French makers (who typically use provas) produce better-fitting shoes than the English ones (who don't).

And while I understand the logic for cutting open the prova (so the maker can see how the toes sit, etc.), that has always struck me as being mostly theater.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

jcusey said:


> . . . his shoes have the line between the bevelled waist and the heel . . .


Would you please explain this a bit further (perhaps with an illustration). I am not sure I understand to exactly what you are referring.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

dopey said:


> Would you please explain this a bit further (perhaps with an illustration). I am not sure I understand to exactly what you are referring.


As luck would have it, I turned over the one pair of shoes I own with this feature to Tony yesterday for some minor adjustments. However, I did find a picture of one of Tony's shoes that might help:

See that line across the sole just where the sole meets the heel? That's what I'm talking about. The waist of the shoe has rounded-over sole edges, and they need to transition into the straight-sided heel. There are a couple of ways to do this: you can either gradually decrease the degree of bevel until it just disappears at the heel, or you can tool that line into the sole. It's hard to see from the picture, but the degree of curve on the sole at the waist does not decrease as it approaches that line. It's constant and just ends at the line. I think that it looks better than the fade-out method does; and that line continues the vertical line of the edge of the heel, which I also find visually appealing.

Edit: I'd like to be able to say that my appreciation for the heel line (or whatever the correct technical term for it is) sprung completely from my own observations, but I can't. It was bengal-stripe who first pointed this out to me, at which point I said to myself, "Gee, that really looks nice!"


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Berluti was using prova models for its bespoke line last time I enquired.

jcusey, that slight taper on the heel is what Jason Amesbury does with his heels as well. It's different from a full-on cuban heel but quite elegant and different. I think a 90 degree heel is very chunky looking.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

jcusey said:


> For those of you who have used makers who include provas as part of their process, how much difference do you think it has made in the fit of the final product? One would expect that using a prova should lead to better results, but nobody has said that the Italian and French makers (who typically use provas) produce better-fitting shoes than the English ones (who don't).


Taken from Aubercy's web-site:
https://www.aubercy.com/


> A complete pair will be made so that the client will be able to wear them daily for a month (anecdotally, it is said that these seem so beautiful and well-finished that some clients think that this is the definitive pair of shoes, and they have to be reminded to return to the workshop so that the actual shoes can be made.) There will be as many fitting sessions as the client may wish, until, after changes are made to the last, perfection is reached. This idea of a true fitting, by wearing the shoes, is becoming more and more rare, if not to say unique. It is more usual that just one shoe is made, and worn in the workshop for around ten minutes.


I believe Berluti bespoke operates in a similar way: a *proper pair of trial shoes* which you wear for a relatively long time (not just the few minutes of a fitting), which can adjust to your feet and enables you, the client, to decide what aspects of the design you like and what you dislike and want to change.

Surely, that must be the ultimate.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Not a lot to add to the conventional wisdom here. Cleverley was my first pair of bespoke shoes, and they are still my go-to maker. Good sensible patterns that look like ballet slippers. The only pattern of theirs that I am still getting used to is a full brogue (done in reindeer), that compared to their other designs looks like swim fins. Very reliable-- their first pair fit perfectly and I've never had troubles since.

Gaziano (1 pr Edward Greens): better finishing and coloration. First pair had some real fit issues that were largely corrected. Next pair should be better. In his heart, I think Tony wishes my feet were longer. But he can do the boring Cleverley stuff also. 

Davies: Cleverley sense of style, or even more old-fashioned. Excellent materials, very flexible,comfy sole, etc. One bug on a pair that will require an adjustment to the last, but this should be OK after that. If not, requires a re-think on my part. Lower prices than the above, worth cultivating especially for that reason. Some Beaman Risk, as he is essentially a one-man startup.

Ercolino: Most thorough fitting process, didn't prevent a few minor bugs in pair #1. In contrast to English makers, where there is a strong grip around the laces/arch and more room in the toes, Perry seems to strive for a uniform caressing of the feet all over. Most elegant, chiseled last (for me) of all these, coupled with perhaps the least elegant craftsmanship. Not inferior, but different from English shoes in appearance and most suited to country shoes. English and Italian influences. Gets to NY/Boston pretty frequently, which cuts travel expenses and wait time for some clients. Expensive when this is not taken into account.

Lattanzi: One pair only, as an experiment. This was from the NY store and might therefore be a shade less "bespoke" than if Silvano himself were holding the tape. Most expensive even with discount. Strong English influence on style, but also a strong Italian accent. Cap toe comes back a bit further than I like. Seam between vamp and quarters traces a narrower "U" when seen from above, and swoops down closer to the heel than is usual in London. Excellent selection of leathers (bought up a huge batch of Pebody calf). Probably has it in him to make the most elegant wing-tip of this rarefied group. Might try it some time, in darkest Pebody brown calf or mink suede. Construction is very cashmere-like---softer even than Ercolino. Not quite the elegant waisted sole of Cleverley or Tony G. No fit problems whatever.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> jcusey, that slight taper on the heel is what Jason Amesbury does with his heels as well.


As does Cleverley.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I believe Berluti bespoke operates in a similar way: a *proper pair of trial shoes* which you wear for a relatively long time (not just the few minutes of a fitting), which can adjust to your feet and enables you, the client, to decide what aspects of the design you like and what you dislike and want to change.


I was told a month or two by the Berluti gentlemen in London.

As for Lattanzi bespoke, Silvano uses a leather strip which he wraps at several points around your arch and marks with a pen or pencil, after taking a foot trace. My brogue oxfords I posted from Lattanzi were done this way. I'm afraid I could possibly not afford Silvano's bespoke now based on the prices I have heard recently.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

It seems to me that prova shoes could be useful but the key is really getting the last right. Assuming the last is perfect, I would think the shoes would be excellent assuming quality in the making and finishing steps.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Concordia said:


> Lattanzi: One pair only, as an experiment. This was from the NY store and might therefore be a shade less "bespoke" than if Silvano himself were holding the tape. Most expensive even with discount. Strong English influence on style, but also a strong Italian accent. Cap toe comes back a bit further than I like. Seam between vamp and quarters traces a narrower "U" when seen from above, and swoops down closer to the heel than is usual in London. Excellent selection of leathers (bought up a huge batch of Pebody calf). Probably has it in him to make the most elegant wing-tip of this rarefied group. Might try it some time, in darkest Pebody brown calf or mink suede. Construction is very cashmere-like---softer even than Ercolino. Not quite the elegant waisted sole of Cleverley or Tony G. No fit problems whatever.


The pebody leather is just great. I would say that it is the highest quality leather that I have ever seen. I have two pairs of bespoke from him in Pebody. I believe that he bought all of the leather remaining when they went out of business. I would say that from what I have seen, they are the finest "makers" of shoes around. I am not sure you can say good things about all the styles, but as you say, some are very English influenced.

Another thing that is not mentioned here is the ability to be facile with many different kinds of constructions. Obviously some of the more "expressive" constructions do not appeal to many of the members here, but they certainly have to be taken ino account when you talk of the skill of the maker. Latanzi is, even according to his rivals in Italy, the best with anything outside simple welted construction. That is tecnically, not stylistically.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> jcusey, that slight taper on the heel is what Jason Amesbury does with his heels as well.


Jcusey was not refering to the slant at the heel back, but to the heel breast. Right side of the photograph is the breast of the heel, the wall where the heel begins.

Do you see how the inner heel edge line continues right up, over the sole until the upper comes in. Think of wood carving, like in wood working you make a vertical cut, the you cut the curvature of the sole edge with little shavings. The end result is the rounded (horizontal) sole edge hits the straight (vertical) heel edge bang on, causing a step.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Many have mentioned that Tony Gaziano tends to be more fashion-forward and aggressive in his styling than Cleverley does; and it is true that by default, he will be.


I think this is one aspect of bespoke that I didn't really appreciate until I started commissioning pieces --- the collaboration with the craftsman, and seeing how your personalities and tastes fit each other. I really enjoyed working with Tony and seeing the progress of the shoe from our concepts to the first fitting because his forward sensibilities meshes well with my tastes. Of course, different people will prefer different makers because of their tastes and sensibilities, and Tony's aesthetic speaks to me.

One danger with two like-minded people working like this is going overboard, and ending with something a bit too extreme, with each person egging the other on. My current shoe is looking in the direction of the pimp line, but still sufficiently far away (I hope). However, Tony's got me thinking already as he had suggested an opera pump done in black stingray. I've got to remember that he's just got to make the shoe and maybe display a picture of it, but I'm the one that has to pay for it and actually wear it!

--Andre


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Jcusey was not refering to the slant at the heel back, but to the heel breast. Right side of the photograph is the breast of the heel, the wall where the heel begins.


I understood jcusey's point but I was making a different point as well because the picture was such a good example of a tapered heel. 

I would like to add one thing on the point about the "prova shoe" question. It may indeed be a bit of theater but I suspect the genesis was in trying to differentiate some makers from others.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

> A complete pair will be made so that the client will be able to wear them daily for a month (anecdotally, it is said that these seem so beautiful and well-finished that some clients think that this is the definitive pair of shoes, and they have to be reminded to return to the workshop so that the actual shoes can be made.) There will be as many fitting sessions as the client may wish, until, after changes are made to the last, perfection is reached. This idea of a true fitting, by wearing the shoes, is becoming more and more rare, if not to say unique. It is more usual that just one shoe is made, and worn in the workshop for around ten minutes.


Reminds me of the joke that allegedly circulated in East Germany before the Wall fell. It seems that there was a Texas car collector who, having heard about the multi-year wait list for the Trabant figured that he just had to own one. The factory was so stunned to get an offer in hard currency that they sent him the next one off the line.

Later, he was heard bragging to his friends: "Not only were they really nice at the factory but they sent me a cardboard model to use while the real one was getting built."


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## CPATAILOR (Oct 1, 2004)

I ordered bespoke JL Paris in June '06 from the Madison Avenue store and the price was $ 5,250 which inclues trees and bags. This was a reorder.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

CPATAILOR said:


> I ordered bespoke JL Paris in June '06 from the Madison Avenue store and the price was $ 5,250 which inclues trees and bags. This was a reorder.


Thank G-d the bags are included!!!!!!


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

CPATAILOR said:


> I ordered bespoke JL Paris in June '06 from the Madison Avenue store and the price was $ 5,250 which inclues trees and bags. This was a reorder.


Ouch!


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

medwards said:


> As does Cleverley.


As does every West End maker whose work I have seen pictures of. It's one of the features that makes a West End bespoke shoe a West End bespoke shoe.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

*I need an IP lawyer*



Concordia said:


> . . . Some *Beaman Risk*, as he is essentially a one-man startup . . .


Darn . . . I knew I should have registered that as a trademark.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

dopey said:


> Darn . . . I knew I should have registered that as a trademark.


Yes, well-- great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ.


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

dopey said:


> Nothing makes this tethered American more annoyed than the constant mention of the ready availability of better quality bespoke shoes, suits etc. at lower cost in Italy or France.


You can be sure of that !

But cheer up, Levi's Jeans cost only $30 in the US compared to $120 here...

And I'd not start comparing McDonalds or Burger King Prices :icon_smile_big:


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

lakewolf said:


> But cheer up, Levi's Jeans cost only $30 in the US compared to $120 here...
> 
> And I'd not start comparing McDonalds or Burger King Prices :icon_smile_big:


I can take some solace in the fact that one of my European friends constantly complains that he can't get a decent steak, decent chiles, or Reece's Peanut Butter Cups over there; but it doesn't make the frustration about his easy access to a world of low-priced and high-talent Italian bespoke makers much less.


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

Will said:


> Ouch!


+1 (how does this price compare w/Lattanzi bespoke?)


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> how does this price compare w/Lattanzi bespoke


Matt will know the answer but I think Silvano is charging $6K+ now. I did mine a while ago for around $3K at Louis Boston.


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## Pickwick (Dec 24, 2005)

lakewolf said:


> But cheer up, Levi's Jeans cost only $30 in the US compared to $120 here...
> 
> And I'd not start comparing McDonalds or Burger King Prices :icon_smile_big:


Ah, I wouldn't exactly characterize this as a fair tradeoff.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Andre Yew said:


> I think this is one aspect of bespoke that I didn't really appreciate until I started commissioning pieces --- the collaboration with the craftsman, and seeing how your personalities and tastes fit each other.


I think that this is absolutely correct: you stand a better chance of getting excellent results if you select an artisan whose sense of style matches your own. If you order a pair of Budapesters from Tony, I am sure that he will try his very best to produce a pair of excellent Budapesters for you; but they are unlikely to sing like something with a chiseled toe.


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

this is a good point and i think the the more you do with them and as the relationship develops it will be a great co-op, especially if you have open communication and both parties are not afraid to say want they want and what there can do too!

i think this is what you callo real bespoke!


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> Matt will know the answer but I think Silvano is charging $6K+ now. I did mine a while ago for around $3K at Louis Boston.


 I hope not. Last I checked (maybe a year ago), the price was well north of $4,000 but was discounted to $3,600. Dunno if that was a first-time offer ("c'mon kid-- it's really cheap and feels great!") or if their regular clients pay less than list for quasi-bespoke.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Concordia said:


> I hope not. Last I checked (maybe a year ago), the price was well north of $4,000 but was discounted to $3,600. Dunno if that was a first-time offer ("c'mon kid-- it's really cheap and feels great!") or if their regular clients pay less than list for quasi-bespoke.


Quasi-bespoke?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

I got measured, tried on RTW shoes for comparison, specified a model and leather. I got what I asked for and they fit perfectly but I don't know precisely if there is a last with my name on it or if there is some higher level of service if you drop in to see Silvano personally.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Concordia said:


> I got measured, tried on RTW shoes for comparison, specified a model and leather. I got what I asked for and they fit perfectly but I don't know precisely if there is a last with my name on it or if there is some higher level of service if you drop in to see Silvano personally.





Concordia said:


> I hope not. Last I checked (maybe a year ago), the price was well north of $4,000 but was discounted to $3,600. Dunno if that was a first-time offer ("c'mon kid-- it's really cheap and feels great!") or if their regular clients pay less than list for quasi-bespoke.


The prices there are always discounted a bit. The more you buy/have bought, the better the prices get.

I was measured by Silvano in Rome. My shoes fit great. I do not know whether there are high and low service editions of their bespoke shoes, but mine are damn good.

I have no idea what the cost of his shoes is. I know that when I was talking to Roberto Ugolini he said that Lattanzi's prices made him cry. I think they would make me cry as well. FWIW, Ugolini is under $1000 for a pair of shoes. , for some reason I think Lattanzi is 2000Eu in Rome and probably a bit more in NY.


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## janne melkersson (Feb 17, 2006)

Here are some photos showing what jcusey are talking about, the pics show how the waist will be beveld by the use of an waist iron.
Hope this helps to understand how it is done

https://imageshack.us

https://imageshack.us

https://imageshack.us

https://imageshack.us

These photos was posted on S.F. but I think they was lost in the crash


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Thanks for the pictures, Janne. I didn't realize that you put the wheeling on the welt before stitching it to the outsole. I guess that answers the question of how to do the wheeling without abrading the sole stitch.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

jcusey said:


> Quasi-bespoke?


The French certainly talk about "demi-mesure". Maybe this is what he means?


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## janne melkersson (Feb 17, 2006)

jcusey
the "fudge" wheel is used to determin the stitch lenght. These days wheels in between 8-12 stich per inch are mostly used for mens shoes. 

I use the wheel three times during the making. First to mark the stitch lenght, then to divide the stitches after the stitching is done and finally is it used when the ink is on. The wheel will hit and divide the stitches twice. It is a difficult operation because it is easy to ruin the welt by making "little babies" i.e. the wheel is going of track while pressing it down.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

janne melkersson said:


> ...easy to ruin the welt by making "little babies"...


I like that expression!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

One things for sure, whatever Silvano is charging they are well worth it. I did get a discount on my bespoke order at Louis, Boston.

I think the English makers are superb but I believe one can match the quality via Italian makers for less money at the current rates.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> I think the English makers are superb but I believe one can match the quality via Italian makers for less money at the current rates.


Well, Bestetti, Ugolini, Scafora, and Bemer all are reputed to produce excellent products for significantly less than the English makers; but even at a discount, it doesn't sound like Lattanzi can beat the English on price.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Still cheaper than Lobb. But there's plenty of room for that!


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Well, Bestetti, Ugolini, Scafora, and Bemer all are reputed to produce excellent products for significantly less than the English makers; but even at a discount, it doesn't sound like Lattanzi can beat the English on price.


Actually, I believe that in Italy Lattanzi runs about 2000 or 2500 Euros VAT included. That is a bit cheaper than even the low end of the British scale. I am not sure what this has to do with the price of bread, but...

I think that they are all plaing in the same quality league and it really just depends what you are looking for.


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## wcp45 (Nov 15, 2003)

One thing that has surprised me about Lattanzi bespoke shoes is the quick turn-around. I can't remember how long it took to get the first shoes I commissioned several years ago, although I think it was less than three months. However, on my last few orders I have received the trial-fitting shoes within two weeks, and the finished shoes about four weeks after sending the trial-pair back with my comments. I know that good things come to those who wait, but it's nice not to have to wait for six months!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I believe that in Italy Lattanzi runs about 2000 or 2500 Euros VAT included.


That's very reasonable Matt.

My bespoke Lattanzis took 3 months.


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## fritzl (Jun 5, 2006)

*What's about Vienna???*

I can't believe that there's not any mention about the imperial & kingly tradition in making finest shoes in Vienna.

Probably the same phenomen that you seldom find Knize in this forum, if it's about bespoke tailioring.

Rudolf Scheer & sons, purveyor to the Court in the times of Emperor Franz Joseph.
Prices on the Italian Level, www.scheer.at

Price level from $ 800,- 1,800. including provia shoe and last, shoe trees and bag:

Materna, very bad internet appearance :icon_pale:, 
Balint, www.balint.at
Maftei, worked for Bartkiewicz and Scheer, www.maftei.at

etc. At least there are around 35 makers in Vienna.

Outside Vienna:

Felix Strauß, www.massschuhe.at

Maftei: It's a traditional Family business since the 19. Century. Original from Romania, they opened two ateliers in Vienna in the recent years. Still sort of a Insider tip, they cover classic and modern styles also . Alexandru father of Lucian Maftei is responisble for the traditional styles and more on the Austrian-Hungarian side of shoemaking. Lucian can surely compete with guys like Tony Gaziano. Offering regularly trunk shows in Munich, Frankfurt and Hamburg.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*Central Europe: From Jcusey's Thread*

*Central and Eastern Europe*
*Rudolf Scheer* -- the venerable Viennese firm, known as the John Lobb of Vienna. The shoes from Scheer that I have seen pictures of have been the most English-looking of all Central and Eastern European makers.
 -- Another well-reputed Viennese firm, but with more typically Austrian shoes than Scheer.
*Balint* -- Yet another well-reputed Viennese firm.
 -- Another Viennese firm, although the bespoke shoes are made in Romania.
 -- Budapest. You all know about them.
 -- Based in Warsaw.
*Brunon Kaminski* -- Another Warsaw maker.
*Benjamin Klemann* -- based in Basthorst, Germany. Klemann trained with John Lobb St. James.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Suddenly travel to Austria just got spendy.


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## fritzl (Jun 5, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> Suddenly travel to Austria just got spendy.


Great idea 

@medwards: just talking about this special thread. Thanks for support.

PS: Here are some of my shoes. Pictures are not too good, but you'll get an idea.

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=22628&highlight=maftei


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