# Asian Trad?



## stillwaters20007

Am soon heading out to the Far East for a quick trip -- Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Manila.

I am told that Japanese, in particular, have many Trad-like tendencies in terms of world view and sartorial taste. *Any must-sees in terms of shopping at any one of these cities?* Don't want to get too far off-topic, but anything else that fits into the category of must-do would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## LeatherSOUL

For shoes in Japan...

Isetan in Shinjuku and The Lakota House in Aoyama are musts.

Have fun!


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## summej2

For the Japanese expression of American trad, you might try Ships in Tokyo (I may be forgetting the name) or United Arrows at various locations.


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## tripreed

You could always pick up a pair of the Japan-only Aldens to make nearly everyone on the board ridiculously jealous. Or you could even buy like $3000 worth of them and sell them on the board or on Ebay.


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## LeatherSOUL

tripreed said:


> You could always pick up a pair of the Japan-only Aldens to make nearly everyone on the board ridiculously jealous. Or you could even buy like $3000 worth of them and sell them on the board or on Ebay.


I don't know how much of a profit he could make if the cost was about $800 per Alden! $3000 would only buy maybe 4 pairs!


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## tripreed

LeatherSOUL said:


> I don't know how much of a profit he could make if the cost was about $800 per Alden! $3000 would only buy maybe 4 pairs!


I guess making other jealous with one pair could suffice, then.


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## Tom Buchanan

*TRAD HOUSE!!!*

I think many members of this forum would love a good photo essay of the famous Trad House that Harris drew our attention some time ago.

Maybe you could find out if anyone there speaks English or would take U.S. orders. That could be very interesting.


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## A.Squire

I'm big enough to admit that if I could get my hands on a pair of the coveted loafers, I'd pay nearly double retail just so I could gloat. (wink)

For the record, I wouldn't pay double&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.but I would 1.5 x retail.

Allen


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## A.Squire

Tom Buchanan said:


> I think many members of this forum would love a good photo essay of the famous Trad House that Harris drew our attention some time ago.
> 
> Maybe you could find out if anyone there speaks English or would take U.S. orders. That could be very interesting.


Now that is a good idea. I spend big bucks on traditional dozukis etc. for wood working, I'd definately lay it down for some cool Trad House goods.

Allen


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## dpihl

*Katarogu*

Never having been to Tokyo (other than a bus ride from the airport to the train station), I can only imagine what treats await you...

Having lived in Northern Japan, however, I can tell you that the place is absolutely crawling with Trad wannabees, and obscure little shops that sell more Trad clothing than can be found in the state of California.

J. Press of Japan used to publish really nice catalogs, and they always offered ten times as much Trad wear in Japan than they offer in the U.S.

Seventeen years later, this may not still be accurate.

Sometimes, the best shops were in out of the way towns, and in obscure parts of big cities. The shops had names like "American Club", and "The Trad Shop". Of course, there are always J. Press, Brooks Brothers, Chipp, etc.

Don't hesitate to ask for catalogs. "Ka-ta-ro-gu". They're often free, and make great souveniers.


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## A.Squire

dpihl said:


> Don't hesitate to ask for catalogs. "Ka-ta-ro-gu". They're often free, and make great souveniers.


Great post--only adding to your mystique.
By the by (love to JB)--Is catalog really "ka-ta-ro-gu" or is that a J. Peterman?

Allen


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## ziggy

tripreed said:


> You could always pick up a pair of the Japan-only Aldens to make nearly everyone on the board ridiculously jealous. Or you could even buy like $3000 worth of them and sell them on the board or on Ebay.


What makes the Japan-only Aldens different, and why are they available only in Japan? I'll be in Tokyo later this year and may take a look at them.


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## spinlps

I wonder if the sizing, at least the generic S - XL, is still dramatically different than US sizing. During my last trip to Manila, albeit 5+ years ago, XL translated to US Medium in most shops turning even a normal polo shirt to something akin to an IM-fitting one.

Also wonder if stock shoe sizes are still primarily on the smallish side or if shops now carry size 10 or larger. I don't recall even being able to try on my usual 11's, much less 10.5's.


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## dpihl

*engurishu.com*



Allen said:


> Great post--only adding to your mystique.
> By the by (love to JB)--Is catalog really "ka-ta-ro-gu" or is that a J. Peterman?
> 
> Allen


No, it's the God's honest truth.

Imagine reading a story about Perestroika in the middle 1980's. The word would usually be defined by the author, and then written in italics thereafter. I'm thinking in terms of reading Time Magazine, etc.

Instead of using italics, the Japanese use "Katakana", a phonetic alphabet. If a Japanese speaker encounters Katakana, he/she instinctively knows not to worry if this is an unfamiliar word. Just sound it out, and move on. You may pick up the meaning from context.

Many Americanisms have been adopted into Japanese, as they have been adopted in other parts of the world. These American words are always spelled in Katakana, rather than Kanji (Simplified Chinese Characters).

Remember that a consonant cannot stand alone in the Japanese language, other than the letter "n". Because most Japanese are raised with the idea that vowels and consonants always come in pairs, adopting American words, and learning Western languages are both fairly complex propositions.

We Americans often joke about "Katakana English", or more appropriately Katakana Engurishu. We're not really making fun of Japanese immigrants, because we understand how difficult it is to learn another language, especially English. For most of my Japanese friends, it takes about ten years of living in America before the "Katakana Engurishu" accent goes away.

Until that accent goes away, it's okay to laugh at funny mistakes. Just as the folks in Japan laughed at my bone headed mistakes while trying to speak their language. Mistakes happen, and you have to learn how to laugh at yourself.

Here's the deal. As I stated above, many Anglo/American words have become a part of the lexicon in Japan. You even find them in the dictionary, written in Katakana to get over the Japanese syllabic vs. vowell and consonant approach to language.

Technologies invented in England or America following WWII are almost always called by their Katakana Engurishu name. Many Americans learn to use Katakana Engurishu when inquiring about something if they don't know the Japanese word for it, but it probably falls into the category of new technology.

Baseball is "be-su-bo-ru". Bus is "ba-su". Pen is "pen".

Baseball, widely adopted prior to WWII was banned from the Japanese Lexicon during the war. A Chinese character was devised, and the word "Yakyu" (small, hard ball) was invented so Japan could conrtinue to play. The return to using "be-su-bo-ru" is a mystery, but follows the same lines as America abandoning "Liberty Cabbage" in favor of Sauerkraut.

The thing is, you can't always say things in katakana engurishu and have the expected outcome.

Pants are not "pan-tsu". "Pan-tsu" are briefs. You know, undershorts. I know a lady who inquired about "pan-tsu", and watched the tailor turn fifteen shades of red.

Video Game is not "vi-di-o ge-mu", as "vi" is an illegal sound in Japanese. Not illegal, but you know what I mean, it does not exist. The workaround is to add a small modifier to an existing syllable. "Bi" is "Bu" with a small "i" at the end. "Bui-di-o" is too hard to pronounce. It doesn't roll off the tongue easily, so Nintendo thougt of another word. "Fa-mi-ri Com", short for "Family Computer".

Preppy was another word that hit in the eighties when I lived in Japan.

Too hard to say, so two alternatives were devised, presumably by the likes of J. Press. "I-bu-i", short for "Ivy League" was used, but still had that "bu" with a small "i" problem. Later, the word "Trad" (tu-ra-do) was adopted in its stead.

There is actually a small "tsu" between ra and do, meaning give this one a hard "d", almost pausing for a moment while pronouncing it. A better Romanization of "Trad" would be "Turaddo" (the "O" at the end is silent-- you form the "o" with your mouth, but your voice trails off before you get to it. This is another traditional workaround for the ever present problem of no vowell to stick with the consonant).

I know this is all very complex, but I thought you all might like to know where the word Trad came from. It makes perfect sense to me, but it's awfully hard to convey to somebody who doesn't speak Japanese.

It's been stated elsewhere on the forum that "Trad" is Japanese slang. Slang might be the wrong way to describe it, as it is a recognized part of the Japanese Lexicon. However, it is slang in that it is an abbreviation for "Traditional". Tu-ra-de-i-shi-yo-na-ru is another word that's just too hard to say. Turaddo rolls off the tongue easily.

Let me leave you with one quick pointer, and then I have to log off.

Every Japanese Vowell is pronounced one way, and one way only. That the vowells are sometimes silent, it is true, but even then your mouth is in the same shape as it would have been otherwise. Sukiyaki is actually pronounced "ski" yaki, but most people will know what you mean if you make the classic blunder of emphasizing the "U" which is supposed to be silent.

Most Americans pronounce SONY correctly.

Now you know how to pronounce the letters "O" and "I" every time you ever see Japanese written in roman letters.

Most Americans pronounce "Fuji" correctly.

If you can pronounce "Fuji", you will always know what to do with the letter "U" in a Japanese word.

Most Americans pronounce the "A" in Samurai correctly. Now you know what to do with the letter "A".

"E" is always like the "e" in Ramen, Benji, or Head.

Japanese words are easier to pronounce than any other language on earth.


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## mcarthur

*asian trad*



dpihl said:


> Never having been to Tokyo (other than a bus ride from the airport to the train station), I can only imagine what treats await you...
> 
> Having lived in Northern Japan, however, I can tell you that the place is absolutely crawling with Trad wannabees, and obscure little shops that sell more Trad clothing than can be found in the state of California.
> 
> J. Press of Japan used to publish really nice catalogs, and they always offered ten times as much Trad wear in Japan than they offer in the U.S.
> 
> Seventeen years later, this may not still be accurate.
> 
> Sometimes, the best shops were in out of the way towns, and in obscure parts of big cities. The shops had names like "American Club", and "The Trad Shop". Of course, there are always J. Press, Brooks Brothers, Chipp, etc.
> 
> Don't hesitate to ask for catalogs. "Ka-ta-ro-gu". They're often free, and make great souveniers.


dpihl-
did you do your mission work in northern japan?
Mcarthur


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## dpihl

*Cuaght in the act.*



mcarthur said:


> dpihl-
> did you do your mission work in northern japan?
> Mcarthur


I hope you won't hold that against me...
Figured somebody would peg me before too long.

Just had a really great idea.

I even turned the car around, came back in, and logged back on for you, so I hope you find this worthwhile.

There is a University in Australia which specializes in Asian languages. They publish a great deal of useful software, including the best Japanese-English/ English-Japanese dictionary on planet earth. It is freeware, and open source. It has been ported to many computer platforms, including many of the portable/ palmtop computer platforms.

The university is called Monash, and the guy who made it all happen is named "Jim Breen". I gather he has recently retired.

Given the difficulty of most translation work, I often translate things back and forth a few times in order to hone in on a specific meaning of a word. Still, it beats using the little dictionary I used to carry in my suit coat pocket.

Here's a link:

https://engrish.com/

Now I really must log off. I'll catch up in the next day or two.


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## mcarthur

*asian trad*



dpihl said:


> I hope you won't hold that against me...
> Figured somebody would peg me before too long.
> 
> Just had a really great idea.
> 
> I even turned the car around, came back in, and logged back on for you, so I hope you find this worthwhile.
> 
> There is a University in Australia which specializes in Asian languages. They publish a great deal of useful software, including the best Japanese-English/ English-Japanese dictionary on planet earth. It is freeware, and open source. It has been ported to many computer platforms, including many of the portable/ palmtop computer platforms.
> 
> The university is called Monash, and the guy who made it all happen is named "Jim Breen". I gather he has recently retired.
> 
> Given the difficulty of most translation work, I often translate things back and forth a few times in order to hone in on a specific meaning of a word. Still, it beats using the little dictionary I used to carry in my suit coat pocket.
> 
> Here's a link:
> 
> https://engrish.com/
> 
> Now I really must log off. I'll catch up in the next day or two.


dpihl-
I do not hold it against you and in fact I have great respect for what you voluntary to do. God bless
Mcarthur


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## Tom Buchanan

*One more suggestion*

You might keep an eye out for Buzz Rickson khakis. Buzz Rickson is a Japanese company that is known for exactly reproducing American WWII clothing and uniforms (leather jackets, khakis, etc).

Their khakis are supposed to be the exact same as the original military khakis, down to the dye, etc. They are rumored to cost about the same as Bill's.


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## Topsider

Tom Buchanan said:


> You might keep an eye out for Buzz Rickson khakis. Buzz Rickson is a Japanese company that is known for exactly reproducing American WWII clothing and uniforms (leather jackets, khakis, etc).
> 
> Their khakis are supposed to be the exact same as the original military khakis, down to the dye, etc. They are rumored to cost about the same as Bill's.


Link here: https://historypreservation.com/hpassociates/buzzrlanding_2.php

Doesn't include the pants, sorry.


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## shuman

The pants are listed along with shirts. $250. Would love to talk with someone who has firsthand experience with them. Thanks for the link.


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## dpihl

*Out in the open*



mcarthur said:


> dpihl-
> I do not hold it against you and in fact I have great respect for what you voluntary to do. God bless
> Mcarthur


I never dared to imagine that I'd still be welcome here once you knew.

Now you can all laugh with me about my visit to J. Press in Japan.

Two missionaries, one in a sack suit. Both with a name badge where the pocket square belongs... I usually wore a Grey Fur Felt Trilby hat with black silk grossgrain band in an homage to the Missionaries of the 1950's who were required to wear one. Had to leave my bow ties home (against the dress code you see), but still managed to find a trademark.

The Japanese loved my trademark hat. It was so "50's American trad"...

Every time we visited a clothier on "P"-day (short for preparation day-- a day off to do laundry and shopping), the salesmen usually borrowed my hat to wear in a phtograph. Took a lot of snapshots inside the menswear stores.

One merchant in Yokote told me that if I like J. Press so much, I ought to go visit their factory just a couple of miles up the road.

The man in charge at J. Press didn't know what to think.

"A couple of Mormon missionaries want to tour my factory??? They're not here to try and force a conversation about religion, say it's their day off..."

The whole thing sounded suspicious to him, and he was visibly nervous that we could be spies from the competition. My traveling companion, a native speaker gave him numerous reassurances that I was merely a huge fan of J. Press, and that the merchant down the road had sent us up to see the factory.

Went through the usual formalities.

"Tea?"

"No, thanks, we don't drink tea."

"Your friend here is an American. Does he drink coffee?"

"Nope. Thanks though. Hot drinks and caffeine... Part of a religious dietary law. You understand, don't you? We'd be happy with just water, thanks."

Water?!? Who drinks water?!?

"Sorry, most Japanese beverages are served hot. Most have a lot of caffeine. We don't drink hot drinks, and we don't drink caffeine unless meidcally indicated. Warm water from your decanter is fine, thank you."

If he seemed uneasy before, now he was really worried. He eyed us with even more suspicion as we sipped the warm water and he drank his tea.

At long last, he guided us through the workrooms.

I simply loved watching them cut and sew the jackets and trousers.

One man walked past with a cart full of blue end-on-end weave shirts. White Club collars and white french cuffs. I wanted one so badly I could hardly contain myself.

Another lady was putting the finishing touches on a dinner jacket. They had a lot of GTH formalwear in their catalog-- wing collared shirts with a prince of wales checked body and white collar, cuffs and pleated bib. Oxford cloth dinner jackets with subtle white piping on the shawl lapel and the breast pocket... But this was a regulation black dinner jacket in worsted wool.

I don't know how long the guy from J. Press worried about his decision to let us in and show us around. For all I know, Chipp may have introduced a copycat item the following season, and we may have taken the blame for it.

You never know...

All I know is that I enjoyed the tour very much.

My two year stint ended a few weeks after that, so I came home with that memory fresh in my mind. Yet I've had to keep it bottled up all these years, as there has been nobody to tell the story to.

Do you honestly think anybody else would understand????

I don't know if J. Press was the first, or if it was Gibson Guitars who first outsourced their manufacturing to a post WWII Japan. But I find it endlessly funny to think that the Venerable J. Press has been bought out by savvy Japanese licensees, such as the man who showed us around the cutting room that day.


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## mcarthur

*asian trad*

dpihl-
Thank you for sharing your wonderful adventure to visit the jpress factory. I made it easier for you because I was the ugly american in 1962. IMHO you will always be welcome to post. Any other interesting happenings in your two year stay in Japan?
Mcarthur


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## dpihl

*B.A. In Philosophy, and yet afraid to speak his mind???*



mcarthur said:


> dpihl-
> Thank you for sharing your wonderful adventure to visit the jpress factory. I made it easier for you because I was the ugly american in 1962. IMHO you will always be welcome to post. Any other interesting happenings in your two year stay in Japan?
> Mcarthur


Plenty. Just a word to the wise-- Worsted Wool Slacks with 2 1/4" cuffs don't always get along very well with bicycle chains.

You might also want to know that they don't plow the snow from the roads in northern Japan, and there is a lot of it. For some reason, ice covered roads and narrow ten speed bicycle tires don't always get along.

Lastly, the doorways in Japan are often quite low. Don't forget to bow on your way into or out of a room. Otherwise, you might learn a lesson that you won't soon forget.

Only problem is, whenever I came to, and found myself on the floor looking up at a low flying doorway, I didn't remember much of anything. There's probably a lesson in that, but I don't remember what it was...

Thanks for lending a willing ear.

I knew my fears were irrational. If evangelical atheists such as JLPWCXIII
got along on the forum with ministers such as AlanC, then why would there not be room for a guy like me?

Well, anyway, I'm just glad I'm not a tird in the punch bowl for anybody.


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## dpihl

*Hope this advise is not too late...*

Oh!

I forgot to mention something that might not be obvious.

Take along your best loafers to Japan, but leave your Maine Hunting Shoes (or Gokey's snakeproof boots, or brown suede brogued leather boots) behind.

You'll be putting on and taking off your shoes a lot.

There are probably American clothes that people in Japan covet, but cannot buy for a variety of reasons. Problem is, it's probably hard to predict sizes.

You should take along a large stack of business cards, and some nicely wrapped gifts.

Hard to predict when somebody might hand you a business card or some kind of gift. You may find yourself standing there with egg on your face, wondering how to reciprocate without looking like you were unprepared.

Hope I'm not too late with this advise, because it's very important.

Always hand people your business card with both hands, while bowing slightly at the waist, and bowing even more at the neck. Doesn't have to be an ordeal, just remember to bow as you hand them your card.

BTW: It's perfectly normal for the card to just have your name and address.

While you're in Japan, don't hesitate to visit a few stationers, and be prepared to see a jaw dropping selection of ephemera.

Sailo(se-ra), Platinum (pu-ra-chi-na), and Pilot (Na-mi-ki) have a huge number of pens they don't import into the U.S. I'm quite partial to Sailor, but Namiki also has a large following in the U.S. Mostly, just make time for the gold nibbed fountain pens in the glass case near the front of the store.


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## mcarthur

*asian trad*

dpihl-
yiu advise is right on the mark.
Mcarthur


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## mendozar

*Tailors in Hong Kong*

I had dinner with a friend the other day and noticed an impeccably tailored suit. Perfect showing of cuff, great fabric, good lapel, great shoulder. It fit like a glove. Apparently, he got his suit custom made in Hong Kong, which has some pretty gifted tailors.

Though, my friend didn't have an orthodox "trad cut". If you want something trad cut, then I recommend that you bring your favourite sack to explain to the tailor what you want since Hong Kong was, well, a British colony, and thus more influenced by "Savile Row" than the "traditional eastern seabord university outfitter". Still, by the looks of it, they seem to deliver amazing value, if you find the right one.


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## mizanation

with all due respect to mr. Pihl, i don't know if japan is full of "trad wannabees". japanese wear trad because it is a required part of japanese business attire with much stricter conventions than on wall street.

also, sorry to say, but spending two years in northern japan without once visiting tokyo was a wasted opportunity. if you get a chance, please visit tokyo, it is a place unlike any place on earth.


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## Untilted

I would not feel comfortable using terms like "trad wannabees". Trad is just clothes.


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## dpihl

*Sorry*



mizanation said:


> with all due respect to mr. Pihl, i don't know if japan is full of "trad wannabees". japanese wear trad because it is a required part of japanese business attire with much stricter conventions than on wall street.
> 
> also, sorry to say, but spending two years in northern japan without once visiting tokyo was a wasted opportunity. if you get a chance, please visit tokyo, it is a place unlike any place on earth.


I'll gladly retract that statement.

Please understand that I've always accused myself of being a trad
wannabee, and that I am not mocking the folks in Japan directly.

What I mean, is that Trad is a bit of an affectation for them, as it is for
me. I didn't inherit the kelly green wide wale cords I wore in high school.
I didn't grow up in a neighborhood where people wore GTH clothes. I was
the only kid I knew who had ducks (or anything else) embroidered on his
trousers. I didn't know another male who wore his Izod shirts with the
collar popped.

It was the same in Japan. I knew a few kids who wore brightly colored
blazers around town, often with J Press pacthes on the breast pocket
embroidered in gold bullion.

The American Trad look was for them a costume, and all too often it
looked like a costume or an affectation.

Their version of the American look was over the top, and was unlike any
thing you would ever see on the streets of a U.S. city.

My version of the Preppy look in the 1980's was likewise over the top,
and was unlike anything you would have seen on campus at Deerfield
or Choate (or an Ivyu League College for that matter).

I was a charicature, and not a real Preppy. I wanted badly to fit in with
the Preppy crowd, but didn't know any "real" preps. Turns out I knew a
lot of real Tradsters, I just didn't recognize them because they were so
low key. Understatement was a Trad ideal that I didn't understand until
late in life. I'm still not sure I've mastered it, so I make fun of myself as
often as I can.


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## shoefetish

In the late 80s-early 90s we were doing seismic work for Japan National Oil Company (JNOC).

When there were major management meetings 20 to 30 Japanese staff would attend. Everyone to a man will be dressed in dark conservative suits. Replace the accent and the faces and they can pass off as Americans from the Kennedy era. And the best bit - most if not all wore Florsheim Imperials.

At the time I used to think they dressed more trad American than the "natives". On the other hand most of the Americans would be in western (cowboy) attire and signature belts with their names cut out at the back


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## mizanation

Mr. Pihl,

after your explanation, i see where you are coming from. a little bit after you were in japan, a new type of "trad" trend became popular in japan. the new trad became wearing reproduction levi 501 (and other types) of jeans, high quality american work shoes, and reproduction vintage t-shirts, flannel and sweatshirts, and also repros of vintage military jackets.

when i mean repro levi 501, i mean exact reproduction--woven and sewn on vintage machines, exact indigo color match, exact fabric weight, cotton fiber analysis and reproduction, exact replica of original pattern, hidden rivets, etc... basically complete reproduction of certain models of jeans, such as the famous 1947 levi 501. levi strauss (and the other american jean companies) had stopped making jeans according to the old standards and by the 1980s, had stopped using shuttle looms. several japanese denim enthusiasts took it upon themselves to recreate to the same standards, vintage style jeans.

if you really want to be trad, even in your casual wear, please consider wearing japanese reproduction jeans. they reproduce workwear from pre-1900s and beyond. i don't think it makes sense to wear nice sack suits with classic alden shoes, but wear modern-day (inferior, low quality) levi's.

there are also japanese companies like buzz rickson which recreate exactly vintage military jackets and coats. these are famous for how accurate they are. they are also said to surpass the quality of the original articles.

there is even a company called loopwheeler which reproduces vintage t-shrits and sweatshirts, using old loopwheeler machines. america stopped using these machines because they are inefficient (even though they create a superior fabric).

i think if you were in japan in the early 1990s, you might have caught on to this trend. the trend, ironically, is now becoming popular in the united states....


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## Doctor Damage

mizanation said:


> ...when i mean repro levi 501, i mean exact reproduction--woven and sewn on vintage machines, exact indigo color match, exact fabric weight, cotton fiber analysis and reproduction, exact replica of original pattern, hidden rivets, etc... basically complete reproduction of certain models of jeans, such as the famous 1947 levi 501. levi strauss (and the other american jean companies) had stopped making jeans according to the old standards and by the 1980s, had stopped using shuttle looms. several japanese denim enthusiasts took it upon themselves to recreate to the same standards, vintage style jeans.


_That_ level of obsessiveness warms the dark corners of my heart. _That_ attention to (meaningless, but fun) detail I can understand. As "Q" noted, it is a very human characteristic to collect, categorize, and catalogue everything around us.


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## dpihl

mizanation said:


> i think if you were in japan in the early 1990s, you might have caught on to this trend. the trend, ironically, is now becoming popular in the united states....


Thanks for the update. I find it odd that many so-called "American Classics" have to cross an ocean before they find validation here at home.

Seem to recall hearing that the Ramones were largely responsible for the punk rock movement, but that they were unable to find much of an audience in the US until after they were huge in England.

A documentary on VH1 suggested that CBGBs was a honky tonk, and a dive. They were the only place that gave punk bands a chance to perform on stage, and that's how they became the birthplace of punk.

Many other American music styles have had to find acceptance elsewhere,
esp. in England, before gaining momentum over on this continent.

There were many decades that you couldn't find a three button suit coat at any of the mainstream shops in Utah. You had to know where to go.

Hugo Boss (the company, not the Nazi) introduced an American retro look, and Bam! Three button jackets at every menswear outlet.

Too Bad Boss' people wanted to re-engineer the look, whereas Japan wants to recreate American Trad exactly. Where would we all be if they hadn't saved J. Press?


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## mizanation

dpihl said:


> Thanks for the update. I find it odd that many so-called "American Classics" have to cross an ocean before they find validation here at home.


yeah, unfortunately, us americans have a habit of not knowing the value of what we have--in music, the arts, and fashion.



dpihl said:


> Seem to recall hearing that the Ramones were largely responsible for the punk rock movement, but that they were unable to find much of an audience in the US until after they were huge in England.


add to that jimi hendrix, many jazz greats like dexter gordon, chet baker, etc., and countless other musical geniuses.



dpihl said:


> A documentary on VH1 suggested that CBGBs was a honky tonk, and a dive. They were the only place that gave punk bands a chance to perform on stage, and that's how they became the birthplace of punk.


cbgb is, always was, and always will be a dive. a horrible venue for music, but they were the only place that booked certain acts. now, they are surviving of their name alone. they almost lost their lease last year.



dpihl said:


> Too Bad Boss' people wanted to re-engineer the look, whereas Japan wants to recreate American Trad exactly. Where would we all be if they hadn't saved J. Press?


i am new to the trad thing, so i will definitely look into j. press. if you are interested in learning more about the trad workwear thing from japan, let me know, i'll be more than happy to help.


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## Doctor Damage

mizanation said:


> ...i am new to the trad thing, so i will definitely look into j. press. if you are interested in learning more about the trad workwear thing from japan, let me know, i'll be more than happy to help.


We'd be interested to learn as much as possible about 'trad' in Japan, and not just the workwear phenomenon, but also business dress, etc. What stores are there, what's popular (or commonly worn), websites, photos, stories & anecdotes...anything. Read more threads here, especially the big one, and you'll see what interests us most.


----------



## Doctor Damage

From the WTF files...
1. Here's something truly bizarre: , some sort of weird Japanese website. Even after applying BabelFish translation, it's virtually unreadable.
2. Here's a which purports to offer both "American trad suits" and "British trad suits", which kind of implies that the Japanese use the word slightly differently than we do.
3. Just when I though it couldn't get any weirder, I ran across the Van Shop...
4. The guide to American suits on ABE is pretty damn good, once translated of course.
5. Here's a short bit on , including "Ivy", once translated.

DocD


----------



## Doctor Damage

We _must_ look for the book below. It would seem the first edition was in 1965, it might be some sort of "annual".


----------



## Untilted

no wonder an ebay-buyer from Japan placed a bid on my "rugby ralph lauren super preppy over-the-top madras patchwork jacket".

im making at least 50 bucks, hell yeah.


----------



## Untilted

another buyer bid on my over the top preppy jacket. Guess what, he's from Japan, too.


----------



## dpihl

Doctor Damage said:


> From the WTF files...
> 1. Here's something truly bizarre: , some sort of weird Japanese website. Even after applying BabelFish translation, it's virtually unreadable.
> 2. Here's a which purports to offer both "American trad suits" and "British trad suits", which kind of implies that the Japanese use the word slightly differently than we do.
> 3. Just when I though it couldn't get any weirder, I ran across the Van Shop...
> 4. The guide to American suits on ABE is pretty damn good, once translated of course.
> 5. Here's a short bit on , including "Ivy", once translated.
> 
> DocD


Wow.

This is the sort of post I was hoping to find when I first noticed the word Trad in the forum name.

I'd forgotten about Van, but I have to tell you something Dr. "D".

There are at least ten more companies out there like them. I can't remember the names of a single one of them, but they are indeed out there.

Seems like there was one called Kent, and one called Chipp that sold very trad clothing. No idea if they are still around, or if they were connected in any way to American companies of the same names.

There was a magazine in Japan called "Men's Club" that simply oozed with Trad. I mean Tradliness came dripping out onto the floor before you even opened it at the magazine stand.

What I wouldn't give for a set of back issues or something...

By the way, you are spot on. Trad means something very different in Japan.

Men's Club ran an article that sought to explain the division between American Trad and British Trad.

They called the American trad thing "Ivy", and from the photos it was clear that they were talking about Ivy League Preppy.

As a means of differentiating, they used the word "Wasp" to describe American trads, and "Sloanne Ranger" to describe British trads.

I'll see if I can hunt down any more information on Men's Club.

It was to die for.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here's more weird Japaneses stuff. These images seem to be from the book _Ivy Illustrated_. Maybe dpihl will know more. Yes, they're cartoons but look closely and you'll see there's actually a lot of info.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Couple more...


----------



## dpihl

Doctor Damage said:


> Couple more...


Perhaps now I can better explain the many "Trad Wannabee" comments. When was the last time any of you saw somebody wearing a Norfolk jacket around town? How about a blazer with a school crest on the left breast patch pocket? Now; when was the last time you saw somebody wearing an Inverness Cape around town, or a racoon fur coat with a college scarf and a school pennant flag?

I somehow doubt if any of this is what you would normally see on the streets of New Haven or Cambridge.

When Trad is a costume, it is sometimes easy to go overboard, or to miss that a Trad item is only appropriate in the context of a costume party, or an old black and white photo on your wall.

I consider much of the Trad clothing I saw in Japan "over-the-top", and therefore costumey. I am also of the belief that much of the Preppy clothes I wore in high school were probably over-the-top and costumey.

A real trad blends into his or her environment better than a wannabee trad.

I hope to someday be one of you, but I fear I have a long way to go.


----------



## familyman

mizanation said:


> i am new to the trad thing, so i will definitely look into j. press. if you are interested in learning more about the trad workwear thing from japan, let me know, i'll be more than happy to help.


miz, 
Very glad to see you over here at AAAC. I think it would be very interesting if you have any links and pictures of trad workwear from the 40's 50's and 60's that's being reproduced in Japan. A bit about the denim as well. I'm very interested in the repro stuff and I think at least a few posters here would be interested to see what is being reproduced. Maybe start a new thread on repro trad from Japan? Other posters here also have some great info about Japan only Aldens and other trad oddities from the other side of the ocean. 
You've added some great info, thanks.

And thanks to dphil, your stories were fascinating. I loved every word of them.


----------



## spinlps

I'm diggin' the Trad hobo...


----------



## Doctor Damage

More images of that _Take Ivy_ book. This looks like the most amazing book.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Lots of random images from the _Men's Club_ magazines. Many of these are apparently special issues about Ivy and trad.

More issues.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Something for the "squire" in all of us. After seeing all this stuff, much of it dating from the 1970s and 1980s, I have to wonder if Ralph Lauren got his ideas from Japan, or the reverse?


----------



## Doctor Damage

For the summer Ivy look.


----------



## Markus

*Japan is wonderful this way.*

I remember being in a magazine shop in Japan where there were multiple issues of magazines dedicated solely to micro-ing in on some obscure facet of clothing, shoes or lifestyle. Magazines on tennis shoes, blue jeans and, one of my favorites "My vintage Vespa lifestyle" which seemed to be putting together a whole look and style based around vespas and the kinds of clothing that people who rode vespas would wear, whether Mod or Italian.

Fascinatin'

Markus


----------



## dpihl

*Wow!*

Way to go Doc!

Those are fine examples of the Men's Club Magazine I used to read and love.
Actually, I only ever owned three issues, but it was clear that these folks were the great Bastions of Trad in Japan.

I am convinced that one of the illustrators on staff used to also illustrate catalogs for Brooks Brothers.

If you look hard, you may find that some of the illustrations in Men's Club are credited in english. The photographers and illustrators often merit a Google image search-- wish I had bookmarked the ones I found five years ago.

Thank you for posting those wonderful pics.

Now forum members will stop thinking I'm crazy for ever having read a mag called "Men's Club".


----------



## smets

i wish too, i think it would be interesting to see there work.

wow, I didn't realize mens club has been around for so long-seems like such an undesirable name for a magazine?, but the coverage seems to be pretty consistent- makes me wish i knew how to read japanese


----------



## Old Brompton

The Spectator (UK), 4 November, 2006
Suits Me, by Fraser Nelson

For a brief spell in my youth I used 'suit' as a term of abuse. I used to conspire with my friends to arrive at a bar 'before the suits arrived' by which I meant the identikit office workers who I felt drained any bar of its ambience. Since becoming one of them myself, suits have wreaked their revenge. I have been obliged to wear one every day and have never found one that didn't make me look like a Russian conman.

It seemed to be a lifetime's punishment for just a brief period of juvenile humour.

My problem is structural. I have the wrong body for suits: a thick neck, short arms and what one tailor diplomatically called a 'prominent seat'. My body has grown in precise two-inch bursts, which are exactly out of synch with the clothes sizes in shops. My chest has gone from 37 to 39 to 41 inches - missing jackets sized 38, 40 and 42 inches. The old sales nonsense - 'it will shrink with use' or 'you have space to grow' - have for years been my excuse as I walk out of the shop with a suit looking as uncomfortable as it feels.

Also, I have long been a victim of the law which pretends the size of your neck is directly proportional to that of your arms and waist. For most humans, this just ain't so - which is why so many men have to undo their top button, or (in my case) walk around in shirts that look like tents.

But after getting married last month (I wore a kilt, and even that didn't quite fit) I decided it was time to confront my sartorial demons and have a suit made to measure.

Still unable to face the cost of a Savile Row suit - some [pounds sterling]2,000 or more - I booked the return leg of my honeymoon via Hong Kong to visit their tailors, whose reputations are second only to those in London and who charge about one fifth of the price.

Walk about Brixton late at night, and people offer you drugs (or worse). It is to Hong Kong's credit that its social pest is young men chasing Westerners down the street touting made-to-measure suits which will take six hours to make. As if to compensate for my years of dishevelment I went for three suits by separate tailors: the famous Sam's Tailor, Ash Samtani, who is next door to Sam, and a chap named Tai Cheong who was recommended by my hotel. Their prices for a suit with two pairs of trousers was, respectively, [pounds sterling]420, [pounds sterling]380 and [pounds sterling]110.

I had suspicions about Sam (who wasn't in the shop). His fame, I suspected, was based on the fact that 'Sam the Tailor' is easier for Westerners to say than 'Tai Cheong the Tailor' which was why his suits cost four times as much. His shop walls were plastered with what seemed to be recommendations but on further inspection were cordial letters of thanks for unsolicited gifts. One was a news report relating that a shirt Sam sent to the Duke of Edinburgh was blown up as a suspected IRA bomb.

The only document Tai Cheong had on his walls was a list in Cantonese offering locals even cheaper prices than he quoted me. He asked me to choose from Chinese, Italian or British fabrics, and I asked what was best. 'Chinese, of course, ' he said.

'Better and cheaper. But foreigners like their own, I don't know why.' So I went native, was measured at 10 a. m. and asked for a second fitting at 5 p. m.

Mr Samtani blanched when I told him his suits were four times the price of Mr Cheong's. 'He probably makes them in mainland China, ' he said - this, apparently, is a bad thing. In his youth, he won the record for making the fastest bespoke suit: 1 hour, 50 minutes and 2 seconds. My linen suit would take two days, and he persuaded me to buy shirts while I waited. In London, bespoke shirts cost [pounds sterling]80 each with a minimum order of five. In Hong Kong, it was [pounds sterling]80 for five shirts.

During my second fitting at Sam's, my heart sank. The material I had chosen from a postcard-sized book had looked suitably understated: a grey cashmere-wool blend with a tiny blue pinstripe. But when I tried on the half-woven suit jacket I saw to my horror that the material was woven in such a way that it becomes massive stripes. To boot, the jacket looked like a box. 'Can't you make me look thinner?' I pleaded. I mean, isn't the whole purpose of a bespoke suit to draw on the wearer a physique he does not possess?

Sam's men grumbled, and said they'd try to taper it a little more. But the trousers, for the first time in my life, were perfect.

Mr Samtani, too, had produced an alltoo-faithful replica of my natural contours.

'I can see the disappointment in your face, ' he said, before I opened my mouth. 'But we can do it. We'll pull out the shoulders a little, take in the waist.' He worked his magic, and it was ready for collection three hours later.

Mr Cheong, by contrast, produced my dream suit. The fabric was a wool-synthetic mix, but the genius of the new Chinese textile firms meant it felt as comfortable as cashmere. The cut beautifully concealed all evidence of London lunches. Had I not just ordered three suits, I would have happily ordered three more - for [pounds sterling]15, he'd post them to London. But Mr Cheong, like all Hong Kong tailors, keeps the measurements on file and can dispatch more suits on request.

Even after a few cleanings, all the suits are in robust form and the shirts iron as well as they fit. Predictably, I'm regretting all those years I reckoned I was too junior to be expected to look good and wish I hadn't laughed off that Donald Trump quote: 'Don't dress for the job you have, dress for the job you want.' The moral in my case was to dress for yourself - not for the shopkeepers who ordain that men come in only eight sizes.


----------



## dpihl

*Any idea where to find Men's Club back issues Markus?*



Doctor Damage said:


> After seeing all this stuff, much of it dating from the 1970s and 1980s, I have to wonder if Ralph Lauren got his ideas from Japan, or the reverse?


I'd sure like to offer an opinion on this question.

In Japan, you can go to the best department store in any town to buy Polo, Brooks Brothers, or J. Press. At least this was true in the 1980's.

Always this was a store within a store. In other words, imagine walking into Macy's, and heading up the escalator to the third floor. On one side of the escalator is an enclosure with the J. Press logo prominently featured some place close to the entrance.

To the left of the escalator, is a place where the carpet or the paint are different from the rest of the room. The fixtures are also unique to the "section" left of the escalator. The pillars and walls are plastered with Brooks Brothers logos, and Brooks signature apparel.

If you come back around to the down side of the escalator, there would be a third "section" featuring Ralph Lauren apparel.

I know, I know. Most of you have seen this sort of thing a thousand times before, especially at the perfume counters in Dillard's. Some Sears stores feature LE stores as well.

In Japan you can buy real J. Press apparel at the mall, whereas in America you cannot.

Even in smallish cities like Yokote there are at least two places to purchase Polo or other RL label clothing.

Larger cities like Sendai also featured store-in-a-store concepts featuring New and Lingwood, Burberry of London, or Kent & Curwen.

This was the Japan of the late 1980's, and I assume this is largely still true.
Of course, I said Macy's, but I meant "Ito Yokado" and others like them.

If BB and Macy's had worked out a similar arrangement stateside, old Ralph
would not have had a leg to stand on.

Alas, he siezed the opportunity when BB and Press refused to come to Utah
(and Arizona, and New Mexico, and Idaho, and Colorado, and Oregon, and
Southern California, and Ohio, and so forth).

I grew up in a part of the US where everybody knew where to buy Hart
Schafner and Marx, Hickey Freeman, Corbin, Southwick, Polo, Gant, Nautica, and so forth.

But the only J. Press attire I ever saw belonged to the men I knew who attended Ivy League Schools before the Hippie radicals took over.

Don't know if he got the idea from Japan, but Ralph sure did know when to capitalize on the stupidity of his former employer.

Around here, you didn't hear people accuse him of copying Brooks. You heard them accuse him of copying Arthur Frank.

Funny thought...


----------



## AldenPyle

*AE in HK?*

Anyone know where to get Allen Edmonds shoes in Hong Kong?


----------



## Doctor Damage

Apparently _Men's Club_ did a series of four issues devoted to Ivy/trad style.


----------



## Doctor Damage

This issue is an example of how seriously they take style genres: "Ivy vs. Hoodlum".


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here's a great issue from the 1980s. Note the table of contents...they take this very seriously indeed. I would love to have this issue and see what they put in each of those sections.


----------



## Markus

*Thats pretty cool*

where did you get these photos?

I really like this obsession and fanatical focus on detail.

Funny and not unlike me and my own interest in, say, the historic evolution of BB shirt labels.

Markus


----------



## Benjamin.65

THIS is Ivy League style.
Not Trad as we know it here.
And dare I say that it's better?

Ben.


----------



## dpihl

And there it is. That's the issue I've been trying to describe to y'all.

Borrowed the outline of the mag from the OPH.
Neatness,
Attention to Detail,
The Sporting Loog,
etc.

Read it from front to back, and it's a magazine about American Trad.
Read it upside down from back to front, and it's all about English Trad.
In the middle of the mag, it's both.

Drawings of a "W.A.S.P." sitting beside a "Sloanne Ranger".

Wish I knew whatever became of that magazine.


----------



## Doctor Damage

This issue has a blatant reference to American Traditional right on the cover.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Another issue, note in particular the wonderful diagram in the bottom-right of the inside pages.


----------



## mpcsb

Doc D,
First let me thank you for posting so many pics and references on this topic. It is very interesting. This Japanese obsession does strike me as a little odd, maybe even a bit spooky. I don't know why - maybe I;m the only one. Thanks again.
Cheers


----------



## masterfred

Gents, these links, lifted from Mr. Deckard's Fedora Lounge, shows the work of a Japanese tailor shop dedicated to the Ivy look:

Suit detailing > 
Designs > 
Icons > 



Enjoy.


----------



## Markus

*Doc, you can never post too many of these pictures...*

Regarding the Japanese tendency towards obsessions--

It is completely understandable, since the Japanese culture is very focused on proper form, no matter what the subject is. Baseball, golf, figure skating, tennis shoes, vespas, heavy metal, gardening, trad clothes. Having no history of "modern business dress" and culturally being a great "absorber" of selected outside influences (Korean ceramics, Chinese cultural elements, American baseball) the Japanese are very serious about "getting it right" and bring this same interest in "correct form" to all things Trad.

Just my .02

Doc, just go ahead and post all of 'em.

Markus


----------



## Benjamin.65

This thread just gets better and better - Thanks Doc. 
I think what the Japanese have is a perfect stylist's sensibility. Everything is details with them and it is these details that sort out the men from the boys. A real love for the style certainly shines through here. Maybe an obsessive love it's true, but you can't doubt that they are serious about what they're doing over there.


----------



## Doctor Damage

More inside views of TAKE IVY. The last photo in particular is amazing.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Another magazine, focus is off but obviously "trad" contents. The red blazer is a bit strong, but it is a 3/2 roll.



Is that a BB label on the blue button-down in the photo below? Press, maybe?


----------



## dpihl

*Turning myself inside out*

Where do you keep finding these images, Doc???


----------



## Benjamin.65

Or could that blue OCBD be Andover?


----------



## dpihl

*???*



Doctor Damage said:


> Another magazine, focus is off but obviously "trad" contents. The red blazer is a bit strong, but it is a 3/2 roll.
> 
> Is that a BB label on the blue button-down in the photo below? Press, maybe?


At the top of the first image, in the right hand corner of the page you see a blue circle with a number one in the center of it. Beside that number one is what I thought was the word "Press", which would make sense. This page looks at the details of a red Blazer from J. Press.

Upon further inspection, however, the word next to the number one reads something like this,

and not

(Pu-re-su).

All I can make out of the heading on the lower page, is

(tto) Can't think of a word or a manufacturer name that ends in tto.

If there are ten ten (little dots like quotation marks) above the to, it would then read "ddo", such as you might find at the end of Trad (tu-ra-ddo).

Alas, it's too blurry for me to tell what any of the page headings say.

Sorry, but I *DID* try.

Chances are these pages are more product comparisons, such as were found in the Men's Club issues depicted below. Note the close up photo of the shirt button, where the stitching on the placket is plainly visible.

Consumer Reports does not hold a candle to these guys.


----------



## septa

I just checked in on this thread for the first time in a while. Some of these recent posts are great. I love that tailor shop in Japan. They really seem to understand the details of the style in the way that an outside observer only really can. I find it funny that the best American clothing, well maybe not the best, but they look very good to me, are not made in the US. I'd love to make a visit there sometime. Is there still a really big market for trad in Japan? I don't think of it as being as tradly as it used to be. Also, is there a way to get clothing from the current J.Press in Japan? Does anyone know where you can find those folding suglasses in the Steve McQueen phots?
Cheers,


EDIT. My girlfriend's grandfather was a diplomat, and quite the dandy. He travelled all over the world and had clothes from the best Italian, English, American, and South American (mostly Italians living in Argentina) tailors, shirtmakers and bootmakers. He was always very much the Anglophile, but had a little of that Anglo-Basque country look (what you might imagine wearing while you carry your AyA shotgun) However, he was posted to Hong Kong, and became a huge fan of Asian (HK, Chineese and Japaneese) tailors. He thought their work was far better than what you could find in Europe. He claimed that they were able to distill a style down to its essentials and then replicate the final process while streamlining the process making it cheaper and stronger. He felt that handwork on all parts of a suit and shirt was wasted, and if machine stitching could bring down the cost, they should do it. He would buy cloth in Egypt, Switzerland, Italy and England and then bring it with him and have it made up for him in the East. Point is, he knew clothes, and he thought that the best tailoring came from Asia.


----------



## Doctor Damage

More "Men's Club", this time with some crossover with VAN and Press.





And another view of those Ivy special editions.
There's a list of all the "Men's Club" issues , which includes notes for Ivy-related topics.
You'll need an on-line translator.


----------



## knickerbacker

I'm not sure if they're still around, but there was a band named after the magazine- Men's Club played shows in San Francisco with garage bands at many a local tavern. Nice folks.


----------



## smets

wow, i really do wish these were in english....mens club still exist, but i don't think it's quite this in depth on traditional style, though I could be wrong??


----------



## dpihl

*Progress report*

Not crossovers with Van and Press. Those are advertisements on the back covers of the same mags you show below.

Because Men's Club reads from back to front (traditional book form in Asia), they put their logo at the top of both front and back-- just in case somebody reshelves the mag upside down.

A good friend emailed me, and pointed out that I had misread the Katakana heading on the pages below. One says "Ko-to" meaning "Coat", the other (with the red blazer) says "Bureza" meaning "Blazer".

He also returned to me a long lost friend. One down, one to go!

I'll post more scans in the future, but I have to work two jobs for Thanksgiving. I'm sleeeeeeepy! Yawn...


(Detail from front cover art work)


----------



## Doctor Damage

More Ivy/trad goodness from half a world away.
Too bad that one image is so out-of-focus, it looks interesting.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here's a blue OCBD to melt your heart (did I just type that?). Nice belt, too.



Gotta start the little troublemakers on the right path early in life, if you want them to be perma-trads.



This isn't quite Ivy/trad, but it's still interesting.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Magazine issue about Ivy, but looks more like 1980s leg-warmer-preppy to me...


----------



## Doctor Damage

More from _Men's Club_. How to strangle your long-suffering trad girlfriend.

Colourful Ivy for early summer.

This one's quite obviously an Anglophile issue.


----------



## Doctor Damage

More anglo stuff (my apologies). First one shows how detailed they analyze stuff, the second appears to be Alan Flusser himself, and the third some "salad days" images.







Not sure what this is...green? He has golf kilts on his brogues.


----------



## Doctor Damage

More stuff from Japan.





Hard-core Ivy stuff.



Not sure what "Kent" is, possibly a brand name.


----------



## Markus

*I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU KEEP DOING THIS!!!*

But thanks!! And keep it up! Very fun and appreciated...

Just amazing. I mean really. Week after week of these photos...

Markus


----------



## Untilted

jack daniel's is trad? nice!


----------



## Doctor Damage

More, more, more!
The last one is a comparison of BB and Press jackets!


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here's a book which is apparently a re-print of TAKE IVY.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Request:
Does anyone here have time to take over posting these images? I will be happy to provide the appropriate links and leave it to someone else (due to time pressures on my end). Please PM me.

Thanks,
DD


----------



## Doctor Damage

Anyone...?


----------



## Untilted

I can. But I'm studying intensely for my finals now. I can perhaps do it in Beijing after finals are over.


----------



## Doctor Damage

More.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here's a clearer image of that magazine cover posted previously, some hard-core shoe porn, and a _faux_-PRL style spread.


----------



## Untilted

that one picture with fair isle sweaters is very costumy.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Untilted said:


> that one picture with fair isle sweaters is very costumey.


Yes, especially compared to the six men in the Take Ivy cover just above (who look like any of us).


----------



## ntw

I'm going to be the one taking over DD's picture posting in this thread. I've got a lot of photos to post tonight. Here is some not-strictly-trad shoe porn to get us started:



It is interesting to see Bass next to John Lobb...


Then we have some Basic Shoes for the Traditionalist. I don't like the soles, but it seems like they have the basic styles down. Anyone know anything about "The Renford (?) Shoes"?



More pictures coming in a couple minutes.


----------



## ntw

Continued...

Now we get to the real stuff.

New England Spirit:



An illustration of a guy that I think qualifies as Trad:



Trad Tennis Twins:



Not much of a cover, but here we have the Cool Ivy Issue of 1966!



We Love Traditional:





Trad women from the Seven Sisters (?).



This issue is from August 2006. It shows what I guess would be a modern, younger interpretation of Ivy League style. I personally prefer the pictures posted in our "What are you wearing?" thread.



That's it for today. I plan to update this thread about twice a week as long as images keep coming in.


----------



## Markus

Thanks for taking over the duties. Nice job. Much appreciated.

Markus


----------



## ntw

And a couple more images:

Some trad sweaters:



This dinner jacket reminds me of the JAB Tartan featured in the recent Velvet Jackets Thread:



The following two images are from the same issue. I have no idea what dansen means, but these seem to be pretty trad. Interesting to note the picture of the swan. I wonder if somehow swans got confused with ducks somewhere.





Another trad clothes spread:



I know that the Take Ivy pictures have been posted a thousand times but these show what appears to be a new printing that is associated with Men's Club.


----------



## paper clip

Thanks for taking on this important work!


----------



## Doctor Damage

Yes indeed, _Men's Club_ has apparently done a re-print of _Take Ivy_.
Yes, it's sold out.
Yes, I missed it.
Yes, I want a copy.
Yes, I am annoyed.

Maybe they'll do it again.

But for now, click on the blue rectangle to the right of the cover, and it opens a viewer with a bunch of inside views of the book.
Crazy stuff!!!

DD


----------



## dpihl

*Wish I had more time*

Love seeing the Men's Club mag's I've missed out on...

Yes, Kent is one of the Trad brands I used to see all over Japan.
Comparable style-wise to Press, but can't really say much about
the quality as I've never owned anything made by them.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Not sure where *ntw* is right now, so I will post these to keep us up to date. More crazy Japanese "Ivy" stuff.


----------



## Doctor Damage

NTW, where are you?

Anyway, more fun images.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here is another inside shot from that book _Take Ivy_, which shows a J. Press store...but where? Anyone?

Here's a reference to both "trad" and "ivy".

More magazines, some trad-ish stuff.


----------



## HL Poling and Sons

DD,

The Press store in the upper left hand corner is the one in Cambridge, on the ground floor of the DU house. Not sure about the others.

HL


----------



## Connemara

Not a cuffed trouser in sight. Nice pics!


----------



## dpihl

*Men's Club and Take Ivy*

The cover of the "current" issue.

A nice cover from issue number 556

2006 Cover Model Takeshi is (was) a student at Princeton. No big surprise there! Anybody recognize him?

Apparently the Take Ivy reprint is sold out.

It was originally printed in 1965. The name "Take Ivy" had to do with the Ivy League athletic conference, and the popularity of Brubeck's "Take Five".
Apparently Akira Hayashida and a "Mr. Ishizu" compiled the photos and text of the original issue. After being overwhelmed with demand for a reprint, 
Men's Club tried to find the original printing plates, to no avail. One would assume that scanning prints with 60's-vintage color separations and stochastic screens might have rendered the reprint project hopeless.

Keep in mind, however, that the publishers are anal retentive Japanese perfectionists. The reprint is probably pretty decent, and I doubt if there are any visible artifacts of the process (such as moire).


----------



## TradTeacher

Just an update (of sorts)...

Any day now, I'll take delivery of a copy of _Take Ivy_ that I won via eBay. I'll try my best to scan images from it.

Hope this is of interest to some of you. I know Doc D will be happy...

TT:teacha:


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## Untilted

thank you TT.


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## AldenPyle

Great!!


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## enecks

If you won the auction I saw the other day, you got quite a reasonable deal on the book, TT.


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## Markus

*That's amazing. Congratulations!*



TradTeacher said:


> Just an update (of sorts)...
> 
> Any day now, I'll take delivery of a copy of _Take Ivy_ that I won via eBay. I'll try my best to scan images from it.
> 
> Hope this is of interest to some of you. I know Doc D will be happy...
> 
> TT:teacha:


Looking forward to it.


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## TradTeacher

_Take Ivy_ was awaiting me on the porch this afternoon. It will probably be Monday before I can scan any images from it. The book is 134 pages of mostly images. The Japanese text is mostly in the form of captions. The images are pretty much split evenly between color and b/w.

Clothing wise, much of what's pictured is madras shorts, penny loafers with white socks, Thom Browne-short chinos, college sweatshirts, Chucks, a few stray pairs of Desert Boots, OCBDs (including a few of the pop-over style), lots of light colored-looking denim (canvas perhaps?). Interesting that I noticed right away the number of guys in slim/tight shorts or pants but very full cut shirts. One pic in particular shows a guy in a voluminous blue OCBD, trim madras Bermudas and Canoe Mocs.

Hang tight for a few more days, gents. I will get the pics up.

TT:teacha:


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## Reddington

TradTeacher said:


> _Take Ivy_ was awaiting me on the porch this afternoon. It will probably be Monday before I can scan any images from it. The book is 134 pages of mostly images. The Japanese text is mostly in the form of captions. The images are pretty much split evenly between color and b/w.
> 
> Clothing wise, much of what's pictured is madras shorts, penny loafers with white socks, Thom Browne-short chinos, college sweatshirts, Chucks, a few stray pairs of Desert Boots, OCBDs (including a few of the pop-over style), lots of light colored-looking denim (canvas perhaps?). Interesting that I noticed right away the number of guys in slim/tight shorts or pants but very full cut shirts. One pic in particular shows a guy in a voluminous blue OCBD, trim madras Bermudas and Canoe Mocs.
> 
> Hang tight for a few more days, gents. I will get the pics up.
> 
> TT:teacha:


TT - Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the pictures.


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## Doctor Damage

I also am 100% looking forward to seeing this book, and I'm still amazed you got it off the US eBay. Lucky s.o.b. ...

DocD


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## katon

Golden Fleece candy for Brooks Brothers Japan









J. Press bottle coozy

Some vintage VAN ads:

A couple of those caricatures that Japanese Trads seem to like:



















...and in toy form:










As for the OPH, they enjoyed it in Japan, too.  :










A helpful reminder:

Also worth checking out, the Take Ivy Winter '67 special, courtesy of this fellow. Also, from the same fellow, "50 Variations of the Ivy" from Men's Club 1966. I'd post images, but it seems that his blog doesn't allow image linking. There's also .


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## katon

A bunch more of those caricatures, this time focusing on the ladies. Does anyone still make OCBD shirt dresses? :icon_smile_big: Courtesey of Japanese blogger vankentscene.


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## katon

More VAN ads, this time from Japanese blogger n-project:


































































Also the "TRAD BOY CATALOG and BUYERS GUIDE":


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## MikeDT

'American style fashion shirt Preppy style' ... from the delightfully named Jiangsu Sunshine Dong Shen Import & Export Co.,Ltd.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/310576357/American_style_fashion_shirt_Preppy_style.html


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## Valkyrie

> Does anyone still make OCBD shirt dresses?


Actually, yes. Brooks Brothers. My wife has two of them, the most recent purchased just last year at one of the outlet stores.


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## katon

A few more from Japanese blogger kousuke427sc:









VAN art









...and artist









Pavement ads?









Regimental stripe sport shirts from VAN's Fall/Winter 2009 collection









VAN ad









A little Trad Psychedelia in one of those Japanese caricatures. (For some reason, wearing Nike Cortez running shoes...)









And another one.









And a third.









Also, in coffee cup form.









VAN's "Fireman Coat"









Disconcerting Trad action figures. 









Beach art?









Origami









VAN madras tennis hat!









A good question.









A good point. 









If Brooks Brothers can do it...

Also, "Let's Talk About 'Knit'", courtesy of Japanese blogger bhhkh906:


































And while we're on the subject, "Let's Talk About 'Blazer'":


































A sneak inside MEN'S CLUB 1985 special edition courtesy of Japanese blogger makif1jp2002:


























Other misc.:








Join the free spirit of Harvard.









Looking sharp in Men's Club 66









Regal Shoe for VAN









A copy of the elusive "Take Ivy" film, in VHS format


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## katon

From "VAN SITE", a website dedicated to the early history of VAN, we have the Spring/Summer 1966 catalog:


















































































































Also, a couple more VAN ads:


















VAN knitwear:










And a rainbow seersucker(!) shirt that they were offering a while ago:


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## katon

What appear to be sweatshirt material natural shoulder sportscoats, part of VAN's current line.

Batik-print Bermudas, with buckle back.


















Some better photos of the I'd mentioned previously.

































Madras and plain popovers.

Madras teddy bears for the kids. 

And from last year, (cotton?) .

Also, tangentially related, an interview with Yuki Matsuda, the American-based Japanese ex-pat responsible for .

An interesting bit:


> *Could you give us background on why you are so attracted to American aesthetic or do you see it fitting a global point of view?*
> 
> When I was 15 years old I started working for an American lifestyle store in Osaka, Japan. Now, many years later, I still remember vividly how exiting it was to see made in USA converse, made in USA Levis 501, or made in USA Bostonians! They were classic all-American made. It's hard to describe how impressive it felt to wear made in USA Red Wing Irish Setter when I was 15 years old. Even now, as it was when I was 15 years old, I'm still looking for the most impressive best products that satisfy my discriminating standards. I want to see continual progress even if it only happens in baby steps. I don't know whether or not my way of thinking embraces a global point of view. We sell Yuketen all over the world and this is an accomplishment we're really proud of.


If I'm not mistaken, I think that VAN has a branch in Osaka... I wonder if he worked for them? (Perhaps for a competitor?)


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## katon

I think of all the VAN ads I've seen, this one is my favorite. Now, I'll be the first to tell you that levels of formality should be based on the group of people you are with, not the environment you are in. However, there was a time when those two weren't necessarily disconnected from one another. This ad looks as though they had summoned all of the various VAN-wearers from the middle of their widely disparate tasks to get together for a photo-shoot showcasing their commonality. There was a large argument a while back on "Big Tent Trad" vs. "Little Tent Trad". I think this photo is a good summation of a Big Tent argument. Put the woodsman in the woods or the skier on the slopes, the businessman in his office, or the traveler on the subway, and he fits, despite standing out in the photo shoot. Even though each fellow is distinctly dressed, and might stand out like a sore thumb in ways that a person dressed in the basics would not, placed in the right environment and around the right people, his clothes are eminently suitable.


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## katon

The inside of VAN's Tajimi branch. Kitschy atmosphere... 

It may just be the branch manager's tastes... here's a few pictures from VAN's Nagoya branch, looking much more conventional:


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays

What an interesting thread.

Who knew?

I know I've gotten tons of requests from japan for some Aldens I listed on ebay.


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## MikeDT

katon said:


> And a rainbow seersucker(!) shirt that they were offering a while ago:


I love that rainbow seersucker shirt, it's awesome.

What interests me is Japan's big fascination for trad. There is no similar fascination in China that I've come across.


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## katon

The Nagoya branch of VAN sponsors jazz nights. (Videos & photos here; I don't think I could do Japanese-level GTH...  The singer is Mayumi Akasaki, I think.)

Also:










4-roll-3 madras.










Surcingle watch straps.


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## katon

J. Press stadium jacket...









...possibly for wearing to Rakuten Eagles games, as they also like J. Press. 









Apparently there's a VAN book club. I wonder what the reading list looks like? 









VAN neon.









Hokkaido Trad Fun Club. There seem to be a bunch of Trad clubs in Japan... the general idea seems to be to dress up in Trad gear and go out drinking.  Not a bad plan, really.


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## katon

Some "VAN showcases". I'd love to get ahold of one of their paper catalogs... some of these are pretty sharp-looking.


Back-to-School


The right way to wear a Baracuta knock-off. 


Shirt-jacs and sweatshirts for casual Ivy


Casual Friday? 

So much to learn, so little time...


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## Dr.Watson

Cool wallet in the last picture.


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## AldenPyle




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## AldenPyle




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## AldenPyle




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## AldenPyle

All from 1964


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## AldenPyle




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## AldenPyle




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## AldenPyle




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## AldenPyle




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## katon

https://atc-ivytrad.com/

Looks like the Japanese Trads are having a get-together. A casual meet up, or a place for VAN and other Japanese brands to show off their new collections?


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## katon

Volume 15 of DANKAI magazine did a .

Also, more video from one of VAN Shop Nagoya's jazz nights:






**Edit:*

And an old VAN television ad: 




Artistic, but where are the clothes?


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## R0ME0

Excellent thread. 

I have to go to Japan and buy some Van Jac clothing. Is there a link one can go to and buy online?


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## R0ME0

Found their link https://www.van.co.jp/index.html

Too bad I can't understand everything that is said on the site. I really like some of their stuff.


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## katon

1967 VAN Calendar, courtesy of Japanese blogger n-project.


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## katon

J. Press Japan seems to be with their emblematic ties... :icon_smile:



Also, interesting ad copy from the J. Press spin off collection "Wood Land Club". J. Press x Snuggie??? :icon_smile_big:


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## WouldaShoulda

Monster Trad...


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## katon

The folks over at Tailor Caid seem to be reproducing vintage stripe patterns out of old ads. I suppose that's one way of doing it... :icon_smile:


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## The Rambler

A lot of the clothes, particularly the Vans, are a little bit campy, or "parody trad" for me to like, but I really like the ease with which they're worn, as in AP's photos. I've sort of realized it's not the clothes themselves that makes _Take Ivy_ such an important book, but the spirit in which they're worn, which Asian Trad seems to have captured.


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## Brooksfan

This isn't (nor would there ever be) an appropriate time to pose this suggestion, but now might be a good time for Onward Kashiyama to consider establishing a few more J. Press outposts stateside. Perhaps Chicago 2012?


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## katon

The Rambler said:


> A lot of the clothes, particularly the Vans, are a little bit campy, or "parody trad" for me to like, but I really like the ease with which they're worn, as in AP's photos. I've sort of realized it's not the clothes themselves that makes _Take Ivy_ such an important book, but the spirit in which they're worn, which Asian Trad seems to have captured.


I'm sure many Japanese wear perfectly unremarkable navy sack, white shirt, black shoes, repp tie combinations, but what's the point in putting up photos of perfectly ordinary items? :icon_smile:

I know at least I tend to seek out the unusual, or at the very least items which are unusual over here due to their rarity (madras popovers, for instance).

I will admit, Japanese GTH does seem to be much louder than the American version, and there probably is a bit of camp going on... I suppose they do help keep the Ivy League blazer patch industry alive. :icon_smile_big:

And now, :


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## Joe Beamish

The Rambler said:


> A lot of the clothes, particularly the Vans, are a little bit campy, or "parody trad" for me to like, but I really like the ease with which they're worn, as in AP's photos. I've sort of realized it's not the clothes themselves that makes _Take Ivy_ such an important book, but the spirit in which they're worn, which Asian Trad seems to have captured.


Well said!


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## The Rambler

katon said:


> I'm sure many Japanese wear perfectly unremarkable navy sack, white shirt, black shoes, repp tie combinations, but what's the point in putting up photos of perfectly ordinary items? :icon_smile:
> 
> I know at least I tend to seek out the unusual, or at the very least items which are unusual over here due to their rarity (madras popovers, for instance).
> 
> The spirit of fun is appreciated!


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## stillwaters20007

Just returned from Tokyo.

Rest assured, gentlemen, trad is alive and well there. Lots of madras too, even on their caps! Sorry, no pics. Didn't want to come across as the Ugly American.


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## Joe Beamish

I'd rest more assured with pics. 

Really isn't everything "alive and well" everywhere? Anything goes.


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## katon

J. Press bandana print boxers?









Smiley face emblematic!









J. Press pet bowls...

And related to this, the latest editions of the J. Press pet catalog. :biggrin2:


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## katon

10th anniversary calendar for Japanese Trad store :










































































































A look at courtesy of Hankyu's blog:


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## roman totale XVII

I'm in Japan early next year, not been for 10 years. Going to have to find a J Press to visit!


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## WouldaShoulda

Do the the good folks at "septis" know their store reminds one of "sepsis??"


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## katon

A trip through a Van Jac store in Tajimi, Japan (on a very hot day)

Some late-60s Japanese Trad, courtesy of Tateichi Baron:

























"Cape Cod Spirit"









"Summer Ivy"









"An Invitation to Golf"


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## zzdocxx

Those fellows look a jolly lot, and why shouldn't they be?


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## Flairball

Headed to Japan next month for a few weeks. Sadly I seldom find anything in my size there. I don't expect to be doing any shopping there this time, but I will investigate any interesting shops I stumble upon.


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## katon

"Captain Santa", from the new VAN / Boat House collaboration.









(The actual "Captain")

"Take Ivy" taken literally -- that's one thing to do with blazer patches, I suppose.


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## katon

Some Van Brothers ads, courtesy of Japanese blogger n-project:


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## ricardofrancisco

I think there's a lot of Asian brands now that try to have smart casual and somewhat trad clothing. Basic house and Uniqlo are good examples I think.


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## sskim3

ricardofrancisco said:


> I think there's a lot of Asian brands now that try to have smart casual and somewhat trad clothing. Basic house and Uniqlo are good examples I think.


I didn't even think to look for an Asian Trad thread..... Very interesting stuff.


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## Doctor Damage

Many thanks to whoever it was who necro-ed this thread - I hadn't seen the stuff posted in 2010 and 2011!


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## katon

Apparently the folks who created J. Press for Dogs have a U.S. website now: https://hannari.us/collections/j-press


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## katon

Representing J. Press in the Hannari Fall/Winter 2010 fashion show. 














One of the models.


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## AldenPyle




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## AldenPyle

Reza Pahlavi


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