# American/Trad



## n/a

Hello to all. I'm Harris--not to be confused with "A Harris," whom I believe has been a forum member for some time.

I live in the Northeastern U.S. and tend toward the American Look. Or trad or whatever you wish to call it. Sack suits, tassel loafers, shetland crewnecks, Harris Tweeds, madras, etc.

I am interested in knowing how many forum members have stuck with this look--the J. Press-Brooks-Andover Shop crowd.

Harris


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## rojo

Count me in. And I can think of at least two other forum members off the top of my head.


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## AlanC

I probably lean more toward this than any other defineable 'look'. I like to bring in an English influence as well (still consistent with Brooks/RL Anglophilia).

But here's the question: Do you wear bow ties?

________________________
'Snobbery, after all, is nothing but bad manners trying to pass itself off as good taste.' --Taki


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## JLibourel

Yeah, that's pretty much me, too. At least one of our neighbors referred to me as "Captain Preppie" (although I don't know how much resemblance I bear to the vain and fatuous character in the "Crock" comic strip. I once told my old boss that I was Captain Preppie to his Col. Crock, whom he did very much resemble in looks and character!)Oh, and I do wear bow ties on occasion!


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## jrleague

I am a religious wearer of the "American traditional" look. All I have is sack suits/sports jackets, plain front trousers, and Alden slip-ons. And those great narrow J. Press ties and bowties.

And apparently there are a lot of other devotees to this style, because everytime I order from J. Press, I only receive about half of my order since everything else is out of stock. I just received two point collar dress shirts I ordered in June.

BTW, has anyone received their fall/winter J. Press catalog yet? Mine has never arrived.

J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


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## Lance

Hello, other than Brooks, J Press and The Andover Shop what are some good sources of this style. Thanks.

Lance


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## rojo

I haven't seen my fall/winter catalogue from J. Press yet, but I've already decided that I need a pair of black gloves with cashmere lining and some Fair Isle socks, at the very least.

I ordered a short sleeve madras shirt from J. Press in June, along with some other shirts, but when I received the order a month later I found that the madras shirt I wanted was out of stock. When I called to find out which plaids were still available in my size, all they had left was the one that I (and apparently everyone else) thought was too ugly to wear. But my brother went to the Manhattan store and sent me one of the long sleeve madras shirts for my birthday last month. I like short sleeve best for riding my horses in the shade in the summer, but long sleeve to keep my arms from burning if I'm going to be in direct sunlight.

There's an interesting article by Michael Press Jr. (great-grandson of J. Press) about the American Traditional style here:


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## rojo

> quote:_Originally posted by Lance_
> 
> Hello, other than Brooks, J Press and The Andover Shop what are some good sources of this style. Thanks.
> 
> Lance


Depending on the articles that you're seeking, you might consider the offerings of Ben Silver, Cable Car Clothiers, Jos. Bank, Lands' End, Mercer & Son Shirts, Murray's Toggery Shop, and Orvis.

Some of the Jos. Bank merchandise is too trendy to fit into a traditional wardrobe and the suit jackets are said to be heavily fused, but if you're a student or recent graduate on a budget and need a three-button blazer or suit to wear for the next couple of years it's hard to beat the sale prices.

I used to have some shirts from Huntington Clothiers that I liked and they used to put out a dandy catalogue, but I can't find them anymore. Are they still in business?

I never cared for Ralph Lauren and I don't patronize his stores, but that is another label sometimes mentioned.


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## n/a

I second the mention of Ben Silver. The fall catalog is overhwelming. Alden shell cordovan, Harris tweeds, regimental repp, and on and on. The Prenner family do justice to the American look, even if everything is a tad pricey. The "Factory Outlet" on the website is worth a look.

As for J. Press, the fall catalog offers a good selection--including that smart Glen Plaid suit on page one. I live about thirty minutes from the NYC store, so I typically drop by for a look once every few weeks. Strange that they're not offering the camel hair polo coat this year. Nor is Brooks. 

Harris


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## rojo

Brooks has the camel hair polo coat on the web site, even if it might not be in the store right now:

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...erchant_Id=1&Section_Id=308&Product_Id=516221

Except that the only size available is 44 short. If that's your size, it's your lucky day, because it's on sale.


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## n/a

Well, I'm glad to see there are a few devotees of the Trad look. The American style takes something of a beating these days, but there are still a few of us around. 

As to the question about bowties: yes, I wear them. Not every day, but occasionally. More than half the time. I have gotten into the habit of wearing grosgrain watchbands and belts with everything, including the most formal of suits and sportcoat-trouser combinations.

Harris


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## GreyFlannelMan

I just received the F/W J. Press catalog and it indeed looks good. I may just have to wander over one of these days.


Rojo-- I also remember Huntington Clothiers out of Columbus, Ohio. They were essentially a Midwest version of J. Press. Very well priced. They somehow got wrapped up in the Custom Shop bankruptcy and apparently ceased to be in 01 or 02.


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## aramg

Another great shop, IMO, is Paul Stuart just a block or so away from J. Press. A majority of their merchandise is way overpriced relative to its quality, but it definitely possesses the traditional, American qualities which you describe. Despite the price, if I see something different, I won't hesitate to purchase it.

I'm also a big fan of their basic piqued polos. This is one item which I've found to be a bargain. Quality surpasses polo's and matches lacoste's for 15 dollars less/shirt. Plus, one can get em without a logo. 

As for tailored clothing, I cannot comment, as I only purchase sportswear from them.

Aside from the fact that the salespeople are intrusive, I really like the atmosphere and decor of the shop. Surprised no one else mentioned PS in this thread.


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## kidkim2

Harris--Would you mind telling me where you find the grosgrain watchbands? I'd love to get my hands on a few. . . .


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## ROI

I, too, am an adherent of the Anglo-Ivy school. Monitoring this forum for only a few weeks now, I was worried that a phallanx of Italo-philes were in control. It's a relief to find some like-minder dressers.

My fall Press and Silver catalogues are in hand, and I have a few questions about them. I welcome Press' inclusion of country of origin notices and I thank them for concentrating so much of their business in North America and Britain. Silver, on the other hand, is tight-lipped about where many of their items are made. While the selection of goods in the Silver book has improved markedly over the past couple years, the quality of the copy remains abyssmal and ignorant. Perhaps the lack of information about country of origin is only another symptom similar to neglecting to mention whether a shirt is exact-sized or smlx, whether socks shown rolled are short or over-the-calf, and so on. In the fall catalogue, Silver reveals the "return of Norman Hilton." What manufacturer is making the new Norman Hilton? Is it an extension of Nicky Hilton's Italian-made line? Is it the old Oakloom shop at Hartz? For that matter, who is the Canadian maker of Press' clothing? Peerless? Coppley? Victor? 
RG


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## Thom

What's wrong with Polo? They've kept the preppy look alive, while slightly updating to appeal to today's generation. 

And, sure, they are expensive. But, their shirts are single needle stitched. And, perhaps, this does not justify their price. But, most of the other brands are overpriced too, like Paul Stewart.


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## rojo

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> What's wrong with Polo?


Because I brought it up, and because you asked: I've just never cared to own or wear any Polo articles myself. When I was in prep school in the early 1980s, I noticed other students wearing what looked like oxford cloth dress shirts, except that there was a polo player logo embroidered on the chest. Wearing dress shirts with logos on them is just not my taste. I decided right then that I didn't care for a company that would produce dress shirts with such prominent advertising. I also noticed that the students who favored Polo tended to be from the newer families in town. I don't know of anything wrong with Polo. It's just not my style. I prefer other clothiers.


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> What's wrong with Polo? They've kept the preppy look alive, while slightly updating to appeal to today's generation.
> 
> And, sure, they are expensive. But, their shirts are single needle stitched. And, perhaps, this does not justify their price. But, most of the other brands are overpriced too, like Paul Stewart.


Keeping the preppy look alive is about the only thing we can all agree Polo has going for it. While some items, such as the Blue Label suits, are quality and well made, Polo now survives as a marketing behemoth riding on the strength of outlet sales (based on lower-quality goods purpose-made for the outlets). Polo's licensing has also slid (although it may be improving slightly). I don't know if the shirts still are single-needle tailored -- last time I saw that, the shirts were also made in the US and had mother-of-pearl buttons, and that was 14 years ago. Unlike the majority of the makers listed in this thread, Polo charges high prices for goods that are mostly made in the Third World. I don't care to pay for Ralph Lauren's gigantic markup and subsidize his own WASP fantasies. And charging $600 for normal-grade Crockett and Jones shoes is criminal. Charging $200 for bad-quality shoes made in China (likely in some prison camp) is unspeakable. Of course, at a lower price, Polo goods become more attractive -- I picked up a cashmere polo-collared Polo sweater for $30, marked down from $400. I can safely say that for a sweater of that quality, I would not have paid more than $50. That would not be the case at Paul Stuart, for example.


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## jrleague

I received my J. Press and Ben Silver catalogs today. I was impressed with both. The J. Press catalog blew my mind . . . it almost seems like their prices went down! What an absolutely amazing group of human beings that have kept that venerable old store going after all of these years (and trends). I will probably buy somewhere around 50% of their offerings before the season is over, that is how impressed I was. Also, I've noticed that they've begun to put the actual words "natural shoulder" back in, which is important, because rojo (I believe that is who I have discussed this with via e-mail) and I have both had bad experiences with blazers that had gargantuan shoulders on them. I've also noticed that J. Press has changed their supplier for this season - all of the tailored clothing is coming from Canada. It looks better than ever, so all I can say is Viva Canada!

As for Ben Silver, it, too, was impressive. But as usual, overpriced. There's no excuse for pricing a regimental striped bow tie at $60, which is nearly $20 more than any other reputable maker (and I'm sure Silver doesn't make their own). I love that they carry a full selection of regimental stripe four-in-hands, but I can get one from J. Press (albeit a much, much smaller selection) for half the price, and made in England to boot. Some of their plaid sports jackets are absolutely beautiful. FYI, Norman Hilton is indeed being made by Oakloom (Hartz) these days. I haven't seen any of their new stuff, but it looks well-made. Overall, Ben Silver just seems priced too high for what you receive. I'd rather just wear Oxxford Clothes for a bit more than go the Ben Silver route. But beautiful stuff, nonetheless.

J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


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## n/a

kidkim2, you can find well made 5/8" grosgrain ribbon watchbands at the Griffin & Cooke website (www.griffinandcooke.com).

Also, don't hesitate to call the Leatherman Ltd. people (www.leathermanlimited.com). If/when you do, ask for Rebecca, who provides exceptional service. A minority of Leatherman's huge selection of grosgrain patterns is featured on their website, so don't hesitate to ask Rebecca about patterns you want (such as pink-green-yellow or pink-navy). The "Eliza B" label goods are made by the Leatherman folks.

I hope this provides a good starting point.

Harris


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## n/a

Regarding Ben Silver: I've noticed a new generation of young men who have (mostly due to the catalog) become devotees of what they call the "Ben Silver look." Tweedy, seersuckered, and regimentaled. Since they didn't grow up with Brooks or J. Press (both have struggled, to be honest), Ben Silver is the sum of what they know of traditional dressing. 

That's not a bad thing, I think. Last winter I noticed that one of my colleagues was wearing a handsome patch-and-flap Harris Tweed herringbone. When I inquired, he responded, "Ben Silver, of course. Where else?" Twenty or thirty years ago the response would have been "Brooks! Where else?" or "J. Press. Where else?" And so it is that Ben Silver is re-defining Trad and creating a kind of movement. Interesting. That's what happens when Brooks and Press let down their guard and surrender their corner of the market.

Some of you have noticed that the three-button, undarted, natural-shouldered sacks that Ben Silver carries in the Harris tweeds and their "American Blazer" are patch and patch-and-flap. A few years ago they let it slip in one of their catalogs that Southwick is the maker. Not at all surprising. Those of you who own custom-make patch-and-flaps from Southwick will recognize the cut and shape in Ben Silver's undarted offerings.

Harris


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## GreyFlannelMan

jrleague -- I must agree about the J Press catalog this season -- it holds many items of interest to me too. I wish I could purchase half of their offerings; instead, I think I will focus on one nice suit (I like the medium gray 1/2" chalkstripe on page 4) and the gray/white herringbone Harris Tweed sportcoat on page 9. And perhaps a pair of cavalry twill trousers (pg 14). Must...be...disciplined!

As for Silver, as I have stated previously, I've quite enjoyed the items I've purchased from them, namely ties, a shirt and some Trumper toiletries. They are somewhat expensive, I suppose, but they have not let me down yet, so I feel the value is there. If I was not living in NYC and instead lived in a smaller city with a limited selection of retail options, I think I would probably order from them more frequently.


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## jrleague

I wouldn't hesitate to order from Ben Silver if it is something unique that I couldn't get anywhere else. I've ordered from them before, in fact, they are the place I get my Lafont eyeglass frames from. I also buy pocket squares from them. And I love their store in Charleston. I just feel they tend to overcharge. I think a lot of it has to do with the image they've created in the younger (my) generation, like Harris has stated. It is seen as the place for the preppy Anglo-American look. It's almost like Ben Silver is the next logical step from the Polo department once one matures a bit. Did anyone watch CNN's coverage of the DNC or RNC with Larry King at midnight? Mo Rocca, the "color guy" who reported on all sorts of minutiae, said several times that his wardrobe came from Ben Silver. He wore lots of seersucker, white bucks, etc. It was a great advertisement, if anyone under 40 was watching, of whom I may have been the only one.

J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


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## Blackadder

I hope I'm not violating some awful forum rule by always advising forum members who visit Press's NY shop to speak to David Wilder, the younger salesman there. He understands Press's history and mystique like an old timer, but he also has an understanding of modern sensibilities and a good eye for colour. I'm not David Wilder, but I'm an old friend of his, and I get no kickback! (He's off Thursdays) Although I only wear trad American during the summer, it almost invariably comes from Press. In fact, I think the seersucker suit David sold me got me a brief TV shot during Arnie's speech at the RNC.


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## rojo

To put a different slant on this, where do your wives/girlfriends like to shop for traditional clothing, apart from the women's departments of the merchants already mentioned?


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## n/a

I hit the NYC Press about twice a month. Typically I work with Tom, but I think I've seen David. Does he wear glasses? I've also met a really friendly African American gentleman who works the NYC Press floor.

Has anyone seen the piece about the "Yale look" of old in this week's New York Times "Mens Fall Fashion 2004"? Lots about J. Press and Chipp, as well as Brooks. Page 200, I think.

A quote from the piece: "A Yale man used to be someone who looked the part. The students who are admitted to the new, mericratic Yale, however, don't dress like Yale men...Back in the happy, bygone days...Yale men were different. The ideal Yale man in those days--which lasted until the fall of 1963 when Yale change admissions policies and began seeking out the kind of Yale man with the higher college boards--was a Cole Porter-ish sort of fellow, stylish and well-connected, who spoke with just a hint of lockjaw accent. He was John Lindsay, to pick a single, perfect example...he dressed impeccably in the preppy uniform of the day, though 'preppy' wasn't in wide use then. 'Natural shoulder' was what men's magazines called the Yale look, and for decades the clothing stores near campus at Elm and York Streets in New Haven were the natural-shoulder capital of the universe."

Harris


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## Blackadder

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I hit the NYC Press about twice a month. Typically I work with Tom, but I think I've seen David. Does he wear glasses? I've also met a really friendly African American gentleman who works the NYC Press floor.
> 
> Has anyone seen the piece about the "Yale look" of old in this week's New York Times "Mens Fall Fashion 2004"? Lots about J. Press and Chipp, as well as Brooks. Page 200, I think.
> 
> A quote from the piece: "A Yale man used to be someone who looked the part. The students who are admitted to the new, mericratic Yale, however, don't dress like Yale men...Back in the happy, bygone days...Yale men were different. The ideal Yale man in those days--which lasted until the fall of 1963 when Yale change admissions policies and began seeking out the kind of Yale man with the higher college boards--was a Cole Porter-ish sort of fellow, stylish and well-connected, who spoke with just a hint of lockjaw accent. He was John Lindsay, to pick a single, perfect example...he dressed impeccably in the preppy uniform of the day, though 'preppy' wasn't in wide use then. 'Natural shoulder' was what men's magazines called the Yale look, and for decades the clothing stores near campus at Elm and York Streets in New Haven were the natural-shoulder capital of the universe."
> 
> Harris


Yes, David's the blond guy with glasses.

Thanks for the tip. The NYT site only had pictures of the photoshoot in Saybrook College (on York & Elm Streets, amusingly enough). I'll check out the print version today.


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## rojo

> quote:_Originally posted by Blackadder_
> 
> The NYT site only had pictures of the photoshoot in Saybrook College (on York & Elm Streets, amusingly enough).


I found the text of "The Yale Man" by Charles McGrath here (however you are required to be a registered user of the NYT site to see it):

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/19/style/tmagazine/MAN5.html

McGrath describes the long, button-front boxer shorts from Brooks Brothers, without elastic, which amazingly they still sell. However, the last time I ordered some I got one pair made in USA and then later the second pair arrived with "made in China" on the label. Sad to say, the pair made in China actually seemed to have better and more careful stitching. _Sic transit gloria mundi._ I remember shopping at Brooks Brothers with my grandmother when she was looking at pajamas for my grandfather; she wanted to be sure that the pajamas had a drawstring waist. "My husband won't wear elastic waistbands," she explained to the sales clerk. "They're uncomfortable." I still avoid elastic waistbands when I can.

There are a couple of older threads from this forum with posts by gentlemen who were in college during the era that McGrath describes and remember the Chipp, Press, and Brooks of those days. The first is titled "44th & Madison-I remember things differently" and starts off "I read a lot of misinformation about 44th & Madison, heaven for us Ivy League, natural shoulder purists in the 50s and 60s."

The other begins with a discussion of shirt manufacturers and manufacturing:

Reading McGrath's article I ask myself again, if the hippie generation had understood how easily the American social fabric could be torn apart and how impossible it would prove to repair, would it still have railed against "the man" and "the establishment"? Today's college students clad in t-shirts and jeans are the sartorial and intellectual descendants of the hippies. Come to think of it, they're also their children.


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## n/a

Thanks for those superb posts. I would like to hear more from our resident afficiandos of the natural shoulder (or "Trad" or "American") look. 

Though I never visited the Brooks, J. Press, or Chipp of old, I've become well acquainted with the Ben Silver store. One view is that Ben Silver is not unique insofar as they carry the (mostly high quality) labels that every other fine mens' haberdashery carries; another view is that with their catalog and excellent staff, they're succeeding a resurrecting a style that many feared had lost its place to GQ Magazine crowd. 

God knows they picked the perfect town for their headquarters. Those of you familiar with Charleston know that as long after the "Ivy League Look" was driven off the Yale, Princeton, and Harvard campuses in the 1960s, it remained very much de rigeur in traditional southern cities...like Charleston.

Harris


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## n/a

In fact, I'll go on record as claiming that of all the cities I've come to know, Charleston remains unique as a place where the residents know how to dress traditionally. And they do so consistently not to mention happily. Perhaps it has something to do with the more formal politeness. For whatever reason, the ladies and gentlemen of Charleston contribute to what's become a community ethos--one grounded in the American/Trad look of old. Lots of seersucker, madras, glen plaid, white bucks, tassel loafers, and, during two months of the year, flannel.

The same could be said for Savannah, Richmond, Nashville, and handful of other Southern towns. But Charleston remains unique. The Prenners were smart to station Ben Silver there.

Harris


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## Markus

IMHO these comments that that Southern cities have held onto the American traditional look far longer than the rest of the world is correct. I lived near Knoxville for many years and travelled extensively in the South. To the list of cities noted above I'd add in Atlanta and Knoxville. My how much I took it for granted that I could go to a men's clothier and find decently made Am Trad clothing. And the small shops often contributed their own unique slant to whole mix, something which seems to be lost now.

I spent a considerable amount of time shopping yesterday and find myself somewhat torn between the Am Trad style as distributed by BB and an updated Am Trad as reflected by Mark Shale. Though I really love the stuff at BB, the MS selection really seems more twenty-first-century, if you know what I mean.

Yesterday, shopping at BB was the first time in a long time that I saw actual human beings who were not clothing salesmen dressed in Am Trad stuff in a long time. Kind of made me want to return to a more put-together image, actually.

Markus


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## AlanC

It's somewhat ironic that the Southern cities are the ones that have kept what is a quintessential Northeastern (ie, Yankee) look alive. 

Considering the innate Anglophilia within the Brooks/JPress/Ben Silver/Ralph Lauren look, how much English is too much? Brooks has its Peal shoes (alongside Alden) and ties of English silk, Scottish sweaters, et al. Ben Silver sells Crockett & Jones with its Alden, and Drake's ties (also Arnys and Kiton). The Savile Row cut certainly is different from the unconstructed Brooks sack suit.

Secondly, what modern American stores/labels would you consider followers of the American tradition? What about Robert Talbott, for instance? I noticed Talbott ties were used heavily in the NYT photo spread.

________________________
'Snobbery, after all, is nothing but bad manners trying to pass itself off as good taste.' --Taki


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## n/a

If I have a complaint about Ben Silver's approach, it's that their Anglophilia often trumps their rather impressive selection (not to mention marketing) of goods that fall under the American-Trad category, including the undarted patch-and-flap Southwick sportcoats and Alden shoes. 

I suppose the same could be said for The Andover Shop, where a majority of the stock is two-buttoned, darted, and/or made somewhere in Great Britain.

Harris


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## n/a

AlanC, I neglected to provide an answer to your last question. 

In addition to Ben Silver, J. Press, Brooks, and The Andover Shop, I give high marks to a couple of other stores, including Max's Men's Store (in Charleston) and H. Stockton in Atlanta. Both offer what most of us would regard as the typical American Trad fare: Alden, Southwick, Gitman Bros., Bills' Khakis, Majer, Berle, and Robert Talbott stripes. To be sure, a host of other stores offer those labels, but only a minority stock them in old school cuts.

Harris


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> 
> I, too, am an adherent of the Anglo-Ivy school. Monitoring this forum for only a few weeks now, I was worried that a phallanx of Italo-philes were in control. It's a relief to find some like-minder dressers.
> 
> My fall Press and Silver catalogues are in hand, and I have a few questions about them. I welcome Press' inclusion of country of origin notices and I thank them for concentrating so much of their business in North America and Britain. Silver, on the other hand, is tight-lipped about where many of their items are made. While the selection of goods in the Silver book has improved markedly over the past couple years, the quality of the copy remains abyssmal and ignorant. Perhaps the lack of information about country of origin is only another symptom similar to neglecting to mention whether a shirt is exact-sized or smlx, whether socks shown rolled are short or over-the-calf, and so on. In the fall catalogue, Silver reveals the "return of Norman Hilton." What manufacturer is making the new Norman Hilton? Is it an extension of Nicky Hilton's Italian-made line? Is it the old Oakloom shop at Hartz? For that matter, who is the Canadian maker of Press' clothing? Peerless? Coppley? Victor?
> RG


I don't know who makes the Canadian Press shirts, but I wasn't too happy with one that they sent me last order. The quality wasn't as good as in the past -- on that particular shirt, at least.


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by jrleague_
> 
> I received my J. Press and Ben Silver catalogs today. I was impressed with both. The J. Press catalog blew my mind . . . it almost seems like their prices went down! What an absolutely amazing group of human beings that have kept that venerable old store going after all of these years (and trends). I will probably buy somewhere around 50% of their offerings before the season is over, that is how impressed I was. Also, I've noticed that they've begun to put the actual words "natural shoulder" back in, which is important, because rojo (I believe that is who I have discussed this with via e-mail) and I have both had bad experiences with blazers that had gargantuan shoulders on them. I've also noticed that J. Press has changed their supplier for this season - all of the tailored clothing is coming from Canada. It looks better than ever, so all I can say is Viva Canada!
> 
> As for Ben Silver, it, too, was impressive. But as usual, overpriced. There's no excuse for pricing a regimental striped bow tie at $60, which is nearly $20 more than any other reputable maker (and I'm sure Silver doesn't make their own). I love that they carry a full selection of regimental stripe four-in-hands, but I can get one from J. Press (albeit a much, much smaller selection) for half the price, and made in England to boot. Some of their plaid sports jackets are absolutely beautiful. FYI, Norman Hilton is indeed being made by Oakloom (Hartz) these days. I haven't seen any of their new stuff, but it looks well-made. Overall, Ben Silver just seems priced too high for what you receive. I'd rather just wear Oxxford Clothes for a bit more than go the Ben Silver route. But beautiful stuff, nonetheless.
> 
> J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


On J. Press: let us know how their Canadian gear holds up.

On Ben Silver: I agree that it's a bit over-priced. And their layouts remind me of the Carroll & Co. in Beverly Hills -- the closets thing, I think to trad. clothing in LA (perhaps I am mistaken?). At any rate Silver, like Carroll & Co., doesn't quite pull it off. To wit: see first model shot in Silver's latests catalog. The vulgar display of gold ring and watch. The french cuffed shirt with tweed jacket and the garish tie. -- Now all these items are perfectly decent by themselves, but together, they don't quite have that quintessential prep look do they?


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## rojo

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> Silver, like Carroll & Co., doesn't quite pull it off. To wit: see first model shot in Silver's latests catalog. The vulgar display of gold ring and watch. The french cuffed shirt with tweed jacket and the garish tie.


You raise an interesting point, Horace. It would never occur to me to wear French cuffs with a tweed jacket. In my mind, French cuffs ask for a suit. A tweed jacket asks for a shirt with barrel cuffs. Maybe other practitioners of the art of traditional dressing disagree? (I still don't have either catalogue, so I can't comment on the ring, watch, or tie. Mail takes forever to reach us out in the provinces. As my great-grandfather would have joked, "The driver must have lost his snoose again.")


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## jrleague

Did anyone notice George Will modeling J. Press' fall selections on George S' Sunday morning ABC political show? He looked rather dapper in the gray chalkstripe suit from page 4 and a butterfly navy polka dot bow tie.

Also, I just received my late fall Brooks Brothers catalog today. I was very impressed with the patterns and colors of their ancient madder ties, but was horrified to find they were 4-inch widths! But the selection of Shetland sweaters and cashmere sweaters, both made in Scotland, made up for that grave mistake. I will take another member's advice here and buy one in each color (the Shetlands, not the cashmere) since they may never reappear again, or it might take them a decade or two to come back.

In case anyone can't tell, I'm rebuilding my wardrobe for the cooler months . . . I only buy significant amounts of clothing about once every five years and then stick with purchasing accessories and ususual items in the interim. I re-read my J. Press post above and it seemed a bit hoggish. But I think it's also a testament to my respect for and loyalty to that wonderful store.

Also, a French-cuffed shirt with a tweed coat to me is very non-traditional. I think French cuffs are appropriate mainly with suits and navy blazers (I only wear them with suits). I prefer a nice oxford with almost all sports jackets. The tie mentioned in the Ben Silver catalog is, indeed, horrible, at least with that jacket. And while I like the jacket, I would never buy it without a three-button, undarted, sack stucture. I'd also have to meditate on spending $1300 on it. I personally think that an essential part of traditional American dressing is a good eye for value. As had been mentioned before, some of America's wealthiest men from some of its oldest families shop at J. Press and the Andover Shop, which are both very reasonable shops.

As for H. Stockton, Harris, I live just a couple of miles from the Park Place store. Very good staff there, IMO, even though I usually only buy bow ties or belts. I actually like two of the sales people at the Perimeter Mall Brooks Brothers, too, though, once again, I generally only buy the traditional Polo oxfords and neckwear there.

J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


----------



## Trilby

On the subject of Brooks Bros. ties, what idiot designed their current line of silk knit ties? The ties themselves are quite attractive, but they have a large Brooks Bros. logo embroidered on the front (!).

I rather like the look of silk knit ties -- they look great with button-down collar shirts and sports jackets. However, I would never dream of wearing one of these Brooks Bros. ties with the logo on it. Does a brand as logo-obsessed as Polo even go this far?

My advice for any other fans of silk knit ties is to walk a short distance up Madison and go to Paul Stuart instead. Their ties have a heavier, denser knit than any others I have seen.

Trilby


----------



## Horace

Just to reiterate my crit. of the Silver catalog. It's not the items themselves that are necessarily bad (indeed, I think Silver has good kit), it's just that the way they put things together is a bit over-the-top & to my taste, certainly not traditional. And $1200 for the coat? Didn't notice the price, but too much. I mean, especially considering you can get a great quality Harris tweed for about half that or considerably less direct from Scotland! Maybe they (Silver) have good tailoring -- but I've never wanted my tweed to fit very well (at least coat as a separate piece) -- as I like to layer underneath it, tuck a scarf underneath it, or actually have some freedom of movement that I wouldn't probably get from something more fitted. I've never had a tweed suit (of the 18-20ozs) but I'd like to get one.

One shop that does great quality stuff is Cable Car Clothiers in San Fran.. But I've noticed that some of their mark-ups are up to 6 times what you'd find elsewhere! Esp. on the Kent brushes and other haberdashery. The Andover Shop has much of the kit that Cable has, at about 2/3's to 1/2 the price.

Brooks: Their damn tweed is made over in Italy? They've got to stop this Italian thing. Let's get back to the Anglo-American manufacturers. Too much being made over in Italy. Like the Brooks flask! can you believe it? They used to have them made in England. There's a whole bunch of items that should continue to be made in England that aren't.

Nothing against the Italian stuff, as it is. But for Brooks, I'd rather not see it there. Be it irrational, or biggoted, I don't know.

I am going to Brooks next week to pick up some ties as gifts. I hope they still make those in the USA or England. I may pick up some of their basic oxford b.d.'s which I believe are still made in USA. I used to love those shirts. And will give them another shot.



> quote:_Originally posted by jrleague_
> 
> Did anyone notice George Will modeling J. Press' fall selections on George S' Sunday morning ABC political show? He looked rather dapper in the gray chalkstripe suit from page 4 and a butterfly navy polka dot bow tie.
> 
> Also, I just received my late fall Brooks Brothers catalog today. I was very impressed with the patterns and colors of their ancient madder ties, but was horrified to find they were 4-inch widths! But the selection of Shetland sweaters and cashmere sweaters, both made in Scotland, made up for that grave mistake. I will take another member's advice here and buy one in each color (the Shetlands, not the cashmere) since they may never reappear again, or it might take them a decade or two to come back.
> 
> In case anyone can't tell, I'm rebuilding my wardrobe for the cooler months . . . I only buy significant amounts of clothing about once every five years and then stick with purchasing accessories and ususual items in the interim. I re-read my J. Press post above and it seemed a bit hoggish. But I think it's also a testament to my respect for and loyalty to that wonderful store.
> 
> Also, a French-cuffed shirt with a tweed coat to me is very non-traditional. I think French cuffs are appropriate mainly with suits and navy blazers (I only wear them with suits). I prefer a nice oxford with almost all sports jackets. The tie mentioned in the Ben Silver catalog is, indeed, horrible, at least with that jacket. And while I like the jacket, I would never buy it without a three-button, undarted, sack stucture. I'd also have to meditate on spending $1300 on it. I personally think that an essential part of traditional American dressing is a good eye for value. As had been mentioned before, some of America's wealthiest men from some of its oldest families shop at J. Press and the Andover Shop, which are both very reasonable shops.
> 
> As for H. Stockton, Harris, I live just a couple of miles from the Park Place store. Very good staff there, IMO, even though I usually only buy bow ties or belts. I actually like two of the sales people at the Perimeter Mall Brooks Brothers, too, though, once again, I generally only buy the traditional Polo oxfords and neckwear there.
> 
> J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


----------



## Horace

Just to reiterate my crit. of the Silver catalog. It's not the items themselves that are necessarily bad (indeed, I think Silver has good kit), it's just that the way they put things together is a bit over-the-top & to my taste, certainly not traditional. And $1200 for the coat? Didn't notice the price, but too much. I mean, especially considering you can get a great quality Harris tweed for about half that or considerably less direct from Scotland! Maybe they (Silver) have good tailoring -- but I've never wanted my tweed to fit very well (at least coat as a separate piece) -- as I like to layer underneath it, tuck a scarf underneath it, or actually have some freedom of movement that I wouldn't probably get from something more fitted. I've never had a tweed suit (of the 18-20ozs) but I'd like to get one.

One shop that does great quality stuff is Cable Car Clothiers in San Fran.. But I've noticed that some of their mark-ups are up to 6 times what you'd find elsewhere! Esp. on the Kent brushes and other haberdashery. The Andover Shop has much of the kit that Cable has, at about 2/3's to 1/2 the price.

Brooks: Their damn tweed is made over in Italy? They've got to stop this Italian thing. Let's get back to the Anglo-American manufacturers. Too much being made over in Italy. Like the Brooks flask! can you believe it? They used to have them made in England. There's a whole bunch of items that should continue to be made in England that aren't.

Nothing against the Italian stuff, as it is. But for Brooks, I'd rather not see it there. Be it irrational, or biggoted, I don't know.

I am going to Brooks next week to pick up some ties as gifts. I hope they still make those in the USA or England. I may pick up some of their basic oxford b.d.'s which I believe are still made in USA. I used to love those shirts. And will give them another shot.

Orvis is looking good these days. But am I misremembering or did Murray's Toggery used to make their own reds? Looks like they're imported now. And didn't they also used to have the red trouser in bright(er) or ish red (the orig. style??) -- which took a few washes to fade? Doesn't seem that way now.

Lastly, if anyone knows of any good sites where I can pick up a good Harris Tweed coat direct from Scotland, please let me know.

Yrs,

H.



> quote:_Originally posted by jrleague_
> 
> Did anyone notice George Will modeling J. Press' fall selections on George S' Sunday morning ABC political show? He looked rather dapper in the gray chalkstripe suit from page 4 and a butterfly navy polka dot bow tie.
> 
> Also, I just received my late fall Brooks Brothers catalog today. I was very impressed with the patterns and colors of their ancient madder ties, but was horrified to find they were 4-inch widths! But the selection of Shetland sweaters and cashmere sweaters, both made in Scotland, made up for that grave mistake. I will take another member's advice here and buy one in each color (the Shetlands, not the cashmere) since they may never reappear again, or it might take them a decade or two to come back.
> 
> In case anyone can't tell, I'm rebuilding my wardrobe for the cooler months . . . I only buy significant amounts of clothing about once every five years and then stick with purchasing accessories and ususual items in the interim. I re-read my J. Press post above and it seemed a bit hoggish. But I think it's also a testament to my respect for and loyalty to that wonderful store.
> 
> Also, a French-cuffed shirt with a tweed coat to me is very non-traditional. I think French cuffs are appropriate mainly with suits and navy blazers (I only wear them with suits). I prefer a nice oxford with almost all sports jackets. The tie mentioned in the Ben Silver catalog is, indeed, horrible, at least with that jacket. And while I like the jacket, I would never buy it without a three-button, undarted, sack stucture. I'd also have to meditate on spending $1300 on it. I personally think that an essential part of traditional American dressing is a good eye for value. As had been mentioned before, some of America's wealthiest men from some of its oldest families shop at J. Press and the Andover Shop, which are both very reasonable shops.
> 
> As for H. Stockton, Harris, I live just a couple of miles from the Park Place store. Very good staff there, IMO, even though I usually only buy bow ties or belts. I actually like two of the sales people at the Perimeter Mall Brooks Brothers, too, though, once again, I generally only buy the traditional Polo oxfords and neckwear there.
> 
> J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


----------



## AlanC

I picked up a navy silk knit tie from the Custom Shop whilst thrifting a few weeks ago. I wore it yesterday with a pink button down Brooks shirt. (The tie was made in Italy so don't tell anyone.)  And yes, logos on the knit ties doesn't get it.

I think all of Brooks' ties are still made stateside. There has been some discussion of the still USA made Brooks polo collared shirts. I think they're now made in North Carolina (mentioned in an earlier thread). Have any of you tried their Golden Fleece line of dress shirts, which were highly recommended in yet another earlier thread?

JrLeague, I'm having to adjust my winter wardrobe to warmer climes as well. Last winter my sweaters went largely untouched.



________________________
'Snobbery, after all, is nothing but bad manners trying to pass itself off as good taste.' --Taki


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## prinseugen

Good thread, gentlemen. My own experience with Ben Silver has to do with quality. I have ordered, respectively, a bow tie, and two seven-fold four-in-hands: the bow was in disrepair; I sent the thing back; it was exchanged--the replacement, while adequately put together, has never properly tied...it just isn't cut symmetrically; the "seven-folds" were both unattractive and poorly constructed (stitching was coming undone on the aprons, which is truly pathetic on a new product). When apprised of my experience, BS was kind enough to suggest that I return the items--at my own expense. I did so, of course, but will never buy from those people again.

Press is a wonderful store. Do they still offer a stock special service, where a customer might personalize a coat or a suit? My father passed on several customized Press and Chip jackets that were made to a very high standard in the late '40s and mid-50s. Among them, a Donegal tweed hacking jacket was particularly attractive, and there was also a superb navy doeskin flannel topcoat, with turn-back cuffs. Both were made by J. Press, and the quality was every bit as good as anything from Savile Row.

Regards,

Jack


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## Downtowner

Quite frankly, I'm a little surprised there are so many J. Press fans here -- last time I went in (because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about), I noticed that all the suits and jackets I looked at were fused, and the outerwear was nothing great. I looked at some cufflinks, which had nice patterns, but saw that the enamel on many was applied unevenly, making them look sloppy. I did not look at the shirts carefully, but others have criticized them. Has the quality gone downhill like Brooks Brothers, or is this all just glorifying a bygone era of the sack suit? Certainly today the quality is nothing like the Row.


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## n/a

It has been a pleasure to read so many excellent posts regarding the American/Trad look. Very impressive indeed!

I never wear cuff-linked shirts; for that matter, I never wear English spread collared shirts. Furthermore, I remain committed to plain/flat-front trousers and undarted sacks. So, why do I bother to sing the praises of Ben Silver? The answer is twofold: first, everything I've purchased from the Prenners has held up well; second, Ben Silver is one of the few remaining haberdasheries that offers undarted upper patch w/ patch-and-flap Harris Tweeds with a center vent, not to mention 3 1/4" regimentals and thick, beefy oxford cloth button down's (featuring an almost 4" collar) that remind one of what Troy used to manufacture. These days I prefer either Mercer & Sons or the Ben Silver "beefy" oxford. 

That is to say, while they continue to get quite a bit "wrong" (the pleats, the darts, the spread collars, the cuff links, etc.), they get quite a lot right. Overpriced? Maybe, but I dare someone to find an unfused upper patch w/ patch-and-flap Harris Tweed for under $500. Theirs is made by Southwick, which is not cheap anywhere. In fact, their Southwick-made American blazer in 130s Loro Piano is something of a bargain. The standard in-stock Southwick blazer is eithr 110s or 120s, and is not upper patch w/ patch-and-flap. 

Regarding the Orvis Harris Tweeds: be careful. Take a close look at the button placement. Yes, they're undarted and center-vented, but the top button is much lower than it should be--much lower, for instance, than the J. Press sack. This results in an awkward-looking lapel roll. The bottom button is lower than the top of the pocket flaps, which is, well, not ideal. Also, the weight much too light. In the Northeast, we need a good bit more than a "featherweight" Harris Tweed.

I suppose everyone has seen Brooks' saddle-shouldered shetland crewneck's. I can confirm the Madison Avenue Brooks looks great, complete with cashmere and shetland woven in Scotland, and several trousers and sportcoats made in the USA. 

Harris


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## jrleague

An excellent thread indeed. I can't ever read a thread like this without learning so much! I consider myself ignorant among the likes of some of you more experienced gentlemen.

The Ben Silver tweed jackets are a great deal. So they are unfused? I thought for only $500 that they would be fused. I love the upper patch pocket.

J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


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## n/a

jrleague, I had to be convinced. Last year a colleague of mine invested in one of Ben Silver's patch/patch-and-flap 3 button Harris Tweed sacks. The herringbone pattern was much larger than the Harris Tweeds you find at J. Press--much thicker fabric as well. 

Instead of taking his word for it, I pinched the outer fabric and lining. After a few seconds I felt the inner layer of canvas. I was pleased, to say the least. 

I should have known. I can't imagine Ben Silver would sell a garment held together by glue. While I don't work for Ben Silver and receive no $ for this promotion, a fact is a fact: their garments are worth the money. In this way, they resemble Andover Shop and Cable Car. 

So, again, I don't think the Harris Tweeds are a bad deal. Especially if you snag one from the online factory outlet. Not many left.

Harris


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> It has been a pleasure to read so many excellent posts regarding the American/Trad look. Very impressive indeed!
> 
> I never wear cuff-linked shirts; for that matter, I never wear English spread collared shirts. Furthermore, I remain committed to plain/flat-front trousers and undarted sacks. So, why do I bother to sing the praises of Ben Silver? The answer is twofold: first, everything I've purchased from the Prenners has held up well; second, Ben Silver is one of the few remaining haberdasheries that offers undarted upper patch w/ patch-and-flap Harris Tweeds with a center vent, not to mention 3 1/4" regimentals and thick, beefy oxford cloth button down's (featuring an almost 4" collar) that remind one of what Troy used to manufacture. These days I prefer either Mercer & Sons or the Ben Silver "beefy" oxford.
> 
> That is to say, while they continue to get quite a bit "wrong" (the pleats, the darts, the spread collars, the cuff links, etc.), they get quite a lot right. Overpriced? Maybe, but I dare someone to find an unfused upper patch w/ patch-and-flap Harris Tweed for under $500. Theirs is made by Southwick, which is not cheap anywhere.


I beg to differ. Go into the Andover Shop in Cambridge and you will find reasonably priced Southwick-brand tweeds. Much cheaper than Silver.

Also, I have nothing against spread collar or French-cuffed shirts. Or even forward-pleats, which I am happy to see, Silver has. As does Andover. Silver just puts it on thick.

But these are just minor complaints. Cable Car, Carroll & Co., and Silver are more yiddish than British (to reverse the motto of Carroll & Co) -- but at least they carry-on the Anglo-American thing.

To the person who mentioned disappointment with J. Press: some of the suits I've bough appear to be fused -- but I haven't minded them. As for the shirts -- I've only had problems with one of their Canadian-make shirts and I don't think anyone save me has mentioned a prob. with their shirts on this forum.

[/quote]
In fact, their Southwick-made American blazer in 130s Loro Piano is something of a bargain. The standard in-stock Southwick blazer is eithr 110s or 120s, and is not upper patch w/ patch-and-flap.

Regarding the Orvis Harris Tweeds: be careful. Take a close look at the button placement. Yes, they're undarted and center-vented, but the top button is much lower than it should be--much lower, for instance, than the J. Press sack. This results in an awkward-looking lapel roll. The bottom button is lower than the top of the pocket flaps, which is, well, not ideal. Also, the weight much too light. In the Northeast, we need a good bit more than a "featherweight" Harris Tweed.

I suppose everyone has seen Brooks' saddle-shouldered shetland crewneck's. I can confirm the Madison Avenue Brooks looks great, complete with cashmere and shetland woven in Scotland, and several trousers and sportcoats made in the USA.

Harris

[/quote]


----------



## Markus

*Where to buy the best buttondowns?*

I'm talking about regular oxford cloth, tattersalls and then pinpoints, etc.

Back in the '80's I tended to prefer the Gitman Bros oxford cloth. I remember my shock the first time I saw one--it was perfection! But I noticed over time that the collars started to shrink, and the shape got too fitted for me. Now it has been years since I bought a regular oxford cloth shirt and I want some.

Where should I buy? I picked up on from BB but am tempted by the comments about the Ben Silver beefy oxford cloth. What is the shape like? Is it baggier than a Brooks? The Am Trad clothiers I used to frequent used to carry Kenneth Gordon, Gitman and Bert Pulitzer. The three I bought a few years ago from J. Press seem ok, and are wearing well, but really not that special. Any thoughts?

Markus


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## n/a

Horace, I've been to the Andover Shop in Cambridge. The one in Andover too. As I recall, their herringbone Harris Tweeds go for about $795, which is about $200 more than Ben Silver's. And if memory serves, the Andover Shop's floor stock didn't include many upper patch w/ patch-and-flaps. None among the Harris Tweeds, in fact. Lots of besom, though. Have things changed? I haven't visited either store in a while.

As for oxford cloth shirts, everyone differs. I tend to like Mercer & Son's product, but not everyone will. 

Harris


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## rojo

Just picking and choosing items from the recent posts in this thread.

The Brooks Brothers flask: I took mine out and turned it over. "ENGLISH PEWTER MADE IN ENGLAND FOR BROOKS BROS." it says. I can't remember how long I've had it, but I remember using it at an Easter brunch in 1984, so at least that long. Brooks should go back to an English supplier.

I agree with Harris and jrleague about the 4" ties. That's too wide for me. I won't buy any tie wider than 3.5", although I do have a few significantly narrower than that (my skinniest tie is an English foulard from Brooks Bros. probably dating from the early 1960s).

Brooks Brothers basic oxford cloth button-down shirt: I have a large collection of these, you might even call it an archive, most of which I've bought myself (beginning early 1980s) but also including a stack that I inherited, which includes a couple from the days when they had five-button fronts (by the 1970s they had six, and recently they've gone to seven). I won't go into all the little changes introduced over the years (unless someone asks), but despite that the shirts were recognizably the same thing until the last one I bought, which turned me off of them for good. The oxford cloth is noticeably lighter weight, and what the old Brooks catalogues called the "soft, full roll to our exclusive button-down Polo collar" is no more. Instead, the collar is lined with a stiff, heavy material, apparently to make up for the lighter weight oxford cloth? They never had lining before, and I know for certain because I've worn many of them until the collars were so frayed that they split apart. Next time I need a new oxford shirt, I'm going to try Mercer & Sons.

The Orvis tweed jackets seem to have always had unusual button placement. I have one from 1984 with the buttons oddly close together.

I agree with Harris on a number of other points: no spread collar shirts for me, and nothing but three-button sacks and plain front trousers. I do sometimes wear French cuffs, though. My shirts with French cuffs came from Brooks Brothers (years ago) and J. Press (recently). Sadly, this year the only occasions I've had to wear them have been funerals. If Harris will wear his cyclamen tie and a brightly colored ribbon belt the next time he's in Seattle, I'll buy him a drink at my club.

Yiddish/British: I think that's part of the tradition. Brooks Brothers was owned by Garfinckel and Co. from 1946 to 1981, which is what many would describe as its heyday. Jacob Press was a Russian immigrant and native Yiddish speaker who came to the U.S. in 1895 and opened his famed tailor shop in New Haven seven years later.

J. Press is the source of many of my favorite clothes: my silk ribbon belts, long schoolboy muffler, vertically striped socks, madras sport shirts, striped silk ties, a "shaggy dog" shetland sweater from Scotland, and a pair of vintage knee-length madras shorts. I don't have any of the outerwear. I don't have much of the tailored clothing. I do have one blazer, made from a soft wool flannel, very traditional cut, shoulders are boxier than they should be, but the tailoring is better than I'd expect in a garment that cost me only $250. Maybe the store isn't perfect, but did you ever know a retailer that was? With so many of my favorite things having come from J. Press in recent years, why wouldn't I continue to shop there? More importantly, where else would I have found them all?


----------



## Horace

Harris: thanks. I knew of Mercer but have now ordered a few. As for Andover: I think you'll find each of the stores slightly different in product and style. Yes, most in besom. And you'll find things in each that isn't in their catalog. I looked at Silver's Harris tweeds though, with the patch pockets. And you know, I think those cannot be beat. I'd like to order one. Maybe Silver, et al. is an example of the student surpassing the master, as it were. They do prep better than prep.



> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Horace, I've been to the Andover Shop in Cambridge. The one in Andover too. As I recall, their herringbone Harris Tweeds go for about $795, which is about $200 more than Ben Silver's. And if memory serves, the Andover Shop's floor stock didn't include many upper patch w/ patch-and-flaps. None among the Harris Tweeds, in fact. Lots of besom, though. Have things changed? I haven't visited either store in a while.
> 
> As for oxford cloth shirts, everyone differs. I tend to like Mercer & Son's product, but not everyone will.
> 
> Harris


----------



## Horace

I've bought Gitman in the 90's and they seem to be okay. A few not so good, and a few very good.

re: Troy shirtmakers. I still have several lightweight poplin button-downs from Troy that are superlative. The fit is excellent, the quality is excellent too.

The funny thing about Brooks old b.d.'s is that who would think that you couldn't buy a reasonably priced shirt of excellent quality today as you did 20 years ago. If there's an upshot, it's that at least I am encouraged to continue physical activity in order to be able to fit into my old Brooks shirts for another 20 years!



> quote:_Originally posted by Markus_
> 
> *Where to buy the best buttondowns?*
> 
> I'm talking about regular oxford cloth, tattersalls and then pinpoints, etc.
> 
> Back in the '80's I tended to prefer the Gitman Bros oxford cloth. I remember my shock the first time I saw one--it was perfection! But I noticed over time that the collars started to shrink, and the shape got too fitted for me. Now it has been years since I bought a regular oxford cloth shirt and I want some.
> 
> Where should I buy? I picked up on from BB but am tempted by the comments about the Ben Silver beefy oxford cloth. What is the shape like? Is it baggier than a Brooks? The Am Trad clothiers I used to frequent used to carry Kenneth Gordon, Gitman and Bert Pulitzer. The three I bought a few years ago from J. Press seem ok, and are wearing well, but really not that special. Any thoughts?
> 
> Markus


----------



## ROI

A few notes elicited by this discussion: I am skeptical that Ben Silver's Harris coats are fully sewn (as opposed to fused). The first tip is that, of the six descriptions of the Harris coats, none mentions "...constructed with a full canvas natural shoulder jacket and hand felled shoulders and lapels," as do the descriptions of the other of the other suits and coats. Second, considering the visible mark-up (i.e.: on branded or recognizable goods) Silver is not ashamed to take, I would think they must take plenty on the anonymous goods, such as the Harris coats.

The regional sales representative told me that Ben Silver's basic oxford button-down is made by Individualized. In fact, I've spotted some of Silver's fabrics a season later in the Individualized swatch books.

I don't know how long some of you old-timers think you have been shopping at Ben Silver, but within my brief lifespan, I can recall when they packed up their blazer button and bullion crest business on Long Island, relocated in Charleston, and started selling clothes.

My choice for the best button-down oxford: Brooks Brothers. They are cheap, and the unlined collar looks right. I don't see the benefit gained by resorting to a "better" shirt such as Gitman or Individualized.


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## mvernon

Are you referring to the Brooks, I think you are referring to?
They ceased to be traditional 10-15 years ago when they started 
going to FEDX colored (purple and orange) shirts and ties. This
slippery slide from tradtional clothing was further evidenced two
years ago when they became the official clothiers to the "Wal-Mart
Management Trainee Program" (short sleeve shirts 1-2 sizes to small and tie--whose moto is "The more polyester the better").

I guess my problem is remembering the "good old days" when the Golden Fleece meant well trained sales staff, stores larger than a mall cubbyhole, and buyers who realized tradition went beyond the latest trend.


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## bowlerhat1

Can someone please post the phone number to order a J. Press catalog? I tried to find them on the internet with no luck. Do they have a website?


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## bengal-stripe

Here we are:
https://www.jpressonline.com/


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## ROI

To those familiar with the Andover Shop:

The coats in the catalogue all appeared to be modelled with a two-button, undarted front. Odd, I thought, so I sent an email to the information address asking if my observation was correct. A prompt reply confirmed that the model is two button, un-darted. 

The question left hanging in the air, then, is: Why? Is it a matter of flexibility? Does the Andover Shop offer to add the third button-hole for customers who prefer it while also being able to sell to the two-button customer?


----------



## Horace

Each of the three stores is different.

You'll get slight variations. I've bought both two and three buttons there, and I've bought double and center vent.

Andover, as far as I've seen, has several two button with slight darting.

The Cambridge store is worth looking at, because they're stuff is slightly different. I really think their house style is elegant, in its way.

It's a misconception that Andover is three-button sack. The Cambridge store has had, for a long time, the sort of (to me) hip 2 button a la JFK.

And by the way I recommend the thorn-proof tweeds. Took a nasty spill on my bicycle and the thorn-proof proved to be asphalt proof.



> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> 
> To those familiar with the Andover Shop:
> 
> The coats in the catalogue all appeared to be modelled with a two-button, undarted front. Odd, I thought, so I sent an email to the information address asking if my observation was correct. A prompt reply confirmed that the model is two button, un-darted.
> 
> The question left hanging in the air, then, is: Why? Is it a matter of flexibility? Does the Andover Shop offer to add the third button-hole for customers who prefer it while also being able to sell to the two-button customer?


----------



## KenCPollock

> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_.
> My choice for the best button-down oxford: Brooks Brothers. They are cheap, and the unlined collar looks right. I don't see the benefit gained by resorting to a "better" shirt such as Gitman or Individualized.


Guess what? The USA made oxford shirts, previously with unlined and non-fused collars, are now lined; apparently Brooks just started doing this a few months ago. 
According to a salesman, Brooks is also lining the collars of the special order shirts. I CANNOT BELIEVE that Brooks is doing this. Why tamper with the most distinctive feature of a very successful product that has been essentially the same for about 104 years? Until it did this, these were the only acceptable button down collar shirts still left at Brooks, as everything else had gone to non-iron fused Malaysia made. Now they are gone too!
The best places now seem to be Ben Silver (made by Individualized) or Mercer. I think Gitman is now mostly fused too. LS Clothiers in NYC has discounted prices on Individualized-made special order shirts; maybe it will beat Ben Silver's prices on basic oxford buttondowns too.


----------



## Thom

Guess what? It is now lined; apparently Brooks just started doing this a few months ago. According to a salesman, Brooks is also lining the special order shirts. I CANNOT BELIEVE that Brooks is doing this. The only acceptable button down collar shirts still left at Brooks were the USA made oxfords with the unlined and non-fused collars, as everything else had gone to non-iron fused Malaysia made. Now they are gone too!


Can somebody explain what's so special about not lining the collars, and what this refers to? I can probably already guess that non-fused collars better since non-fused suits will last longer than fused suits.


----------



## zignatius

a fused or stiff construction of a button-down collar completely ruins it. it eliminates the roll and the shape and movement that's unique to the wearer. stiff collars for plain points are a matter of preference (not mine). stiff-ish collars for button-downs are just plain ugly and uninspired and a result of economics.

i love mercer and sons, but they need a few more choices.


----------



## Horace

It's funny that you mention this Ken, because I was just in Brooks not too long ago, looking at the shirts everyone was talking about, and I thought the collars seemed a bit stiff to me. And I know it's trivial, but I hate the new label in the shirts.

On a separate note, I'd like to have a database of all the different labels from all the mens shops. It would be interesting to look at the evolution of the label on a Brooks suit or shirt or even tie.



> quote:_Originally posted by kencpollock_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_.
> My choice for the best button-down oxford: Brooks Brothers. They are cheap, and the unlined collar looks right. I don't see the benefit gained by resorting to a "better" shirt such as Gitman or Individualized.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess what? The USA made oxford shirts, previously with unlined and non-fused collars, are now lined; apparently Brooks just started doing this a few months ago.
> According to a salesman, Brooks is also lining the collars of the special order shirts. I CANNOT BELIEVE that Brooks is doing this. Why tamper with the most distinctive feature of a very successful product that has been essentially the same for about 104 years? Until it did this, these were the only acceptable button down collar shirts still left at Brooks, as everything else had gone to non-iron fused Malaysia made. Now they are gone too!
> The best places now seem to be Ben Silver (made by Individualized) or Mercer. I think Gitman is now mostly fused too. LS Clothiers in NYC has discounted prices on Individualized-made special order shirts; maybe it will beat Ben Silver's prices on basic oxford buttondowns too.
Click to expand...


----------



## tom22

I thought they had gone back to the red label of the 80s and 90s.


----------



## KenCPollock

It seems to me that there are three kinds of shirt collar fusings:
(a) Fusing the top layer of fabric to the lining;
(b) Fusing the bottom layer of fabric to the lining;
(c) Fusing the both layers of fabric to each other or to a lining.
Numbers (a) and (b) are bad enough, but when (c) is done, it usually seems to me that the collar no longer feels like cotton; more like plastic. 
Brooks is not yet fusing the collars of the USA made polo (button-down) oxfords, but adding a lining has caused a significant change. There is still a roll to the collar, but it looks too perfect; sort of like a clip-on bow tie looks too perfect, compared to the real thing. 
Before the lining was added, it seemed to me that the collar roll would vary a little, shirt to shirt, and even, depending on one's posture or position, from moment-to-moment. That was the whole idea. The best part of the button-down collar look is the casualness of it all. It is essential to avoid anything perfect looking.


----------



## Markus

Ken,

I just picked up two Mercer and Sons shirts, simultaneous to picking up a BB oxford button down. Other than the fact that the Mercers only have six buttons to the BB's seven, they truly seem the same. I do not notice anything different about the collars. I think they're the same as they've always been.

Markus
-----


----------



## Horace

[/quote]
It is essential to avoid anything perfect looking. 
[/quote]

This sums it up; and it is part of an ethos, I fear, that you either get or don't.


----------



## KenCPollock

> quote:_Originally posted by Markus_
> 
> Ken,
> 
> I just picked up two Mercer and Sons shirts, simultaneous to picking up a BB oxford button down. Other than the fact that the Mercers only have six buttons to the BB's seven, they truly seem the same. I do not notice anything different about the collars. I think they're the same as they've always been.
> 
> Markus
> -----


From another thread:
"For those of us who live in or near NYC: good news. I stopped by the 346 last week and learned that their oxford cloths are, in fact, the old red label two-plys. Soft roll, and, I was assured there was no additional lining in the collar. 
It may be that every other Brooks in the country is receiving the oxfords with the lined collars. But the 346 still carries the unlined collar. The soft roll lives on. 
Now if only they would bring back the original statues."

Maybe you bought some older ones with the pre-lined collar, or the newer non-lined ones in NYC with the red label.
I bought three oxfords a month ago from Brooks in Atlanta. I have worn two. On carefully pinching the material both at the front and back of the collar between my thumb and index finger, I can definitely feel that there is something between the two layers of material. When I later inquired, the salesman confirmed that the collars are now lined. It is not horrible; just different, and the roll is always the same and always perfect. I wonder why Brooks made the change.


----------



## Dan the Man

As a Southerner, I appreciate the observations about our style. I have often wondered myself about why we have adopted a Yankee, Anglo, Ivy style down here in Rebel, Celtic, and State College land. I think, perhaps it is that southerners are more traditional, conventional, and resistent to trends. Of note, coastal cities like Charleston and Savannah were historically more Anglo and hotbeds of loyalist than was the inland.

My question, since the look is so heavily associated with tweed and you can only comfortably wear tweed for about 3-4 months down south, what else other than a blue blazer goes with this look.


----------



## Thom

Now, that's funny that Charleston would be considered loyalist since this is where the Civil War erupted when those southern radicals invaded Fort Sumter. As such, I would have thought this would Rebel country.

I'm sure that Alexander Kabbaz and I can both agree that history has not looked kindly upon the South for the real reasons behind their attempted seccesion.


----------



## manton

Pardon my interference, but I believe that the original reference to "loyalists" was to the Revolutionary War.


----------



## rojo

Dan, you might consider jackets in madras or seersucker. There are also poplin suits and jackets, in either "neutral" shades like tan, off-white, navy, and olive, or brighter colors. There was a discussion on this forum about the trick of finding poplin heavy enough to resist wrinkling but light enough not to be as warm as wool. There are also jackets in linen.


----------



## manton

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Dan, you might consider jackets in madras or seersucker. There are also poplin suits and jackets, in either "neutral" shades like tan, off-white, navy, and olive, or brighter colors. There was a discussion on this forum about the trick of finding poplin heavy enough to resist wrinkling but light enough not to be as warm as wool. There are also jackets in linen.


Mohair is very cool and wrinkle resistant. But it has a shiny sheen that some people don't like. A mohair-wool blend cuts down on the sheen. Silk-wool blends also make a nice summer jacket.

Linen and cotton are going to wrinkle no matter what. Depending on your point of view, that's either a pestilence or part of their charm.


----------



## KenCPollock

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> Now, that's funny that Charleston would be considered loyalist since this is where the Civil War erupted when those southern radicals invaded Fort Sumter. As such, I would have thought this would Rebel country.
> 
> I'm sure that Alexander Kabbaz and I can both agree that history has not looked kindly upon the South for the real reasons behind their attempted seccesion.


We already had this argument and I got reamed out, but I still think Baron Rothschild and I are right. see:


----------



## Dan the Man

Thom,
Manton is correct. The reference was to the Revolutionary War. We had another name for "loyalist" in that other conflict. They were called scalawags. Since I am a southern gentleman, I won't dignify the "invading" Fort Sumter with a response.


----------



## Thom

I will simply have to say that I disagree with that southern apologist manifesto, and take a shower.


----------



## isuityou

Just registered, excited to see such a dedication to the "trad" or "preppie" look. Am in the clothing business with a major retailer (whom shall be anonymous.) and am an ardent fan of the "look". I've noticed that not only are the members enamoured of the style, but seem also to be well versed in the technical aspects of the fabrics and construction techniques of the garments. Being a sales guy, I've noticed that there seems to be a number of complaints regarding prices and pricing of clothing. Interested in seeing some feedback, as I've always believed that things cost what they do, sure a designer or manufacturer may create an overpriced garment - but isn't "it is what it is" and if you actually want the piece, you'll have to pay for it?


----------



## manton

> quote:_Originally posted by isuityou_
> 
> Interested in seeing some feedback, as I've always believed that things cost what they do, sure a designer or manufacturer may create an overpriced garment - but isn't "it is what it is" and if you actually want the piece, you'll have to pay for it?


Surely you can't blame us for seeking out good deals, or for comparing apples to apples.

We acknowledge, I think, that designers add value to products and that this value warrants some increase in price. We question the really steep mark-ups, and wonder if they warrant the actual value that is added. And since many (most) of us are traditionalists, I suppose we prefer to buy traditional products to which no designer value has been added, because we think such products look quite wonderful in their original, traditional form, without any changes by designers. And they cost less too!


----------



## rojo

I once worked in the merchandising department of a traditional clothier (I won't say which one), where one of my duties was to create purchase orders and such for men's sweaters and sportswear. Our markup for retail was about 55%. I understand that there are other retailers that use a much higher markup. So the retail price for the consumer does not depend entirely on what the manufacturer charges for an item. I don't entirely agree that things "cost what they do," because I also learned that with sale prices and other discounts (including my employee discount) there were times when I could buy sweaters from my employer below cost. Sometimes things showed up in our outlet store priced below cost. There was nothing wrong with them except that they were left over from the regular season.


----------



## Thom

> quote:_Originally posted by isuityou_
> 
> Just registered, excited to see such a dedication to the "trad" or "preppie" look. Am in the clothing business with a major retailer (whom shall be anonymous.) and am an ardent fan of the "look". I've noticed that not only are the members enamoured of the style, but seem also to be well versed in the technical aspects of the fabrics and construction techniques of the garments. Being a sales guy, I've noticed that there seems to be a number of complaints regarding prices and pricing of clothing. Interested in seeing some feedback, as I've always believed that things cost what they do, sure a designer or manufacturer may create an overpriced garment - but isn't "it is what it is" and if you actually want the piece, you'll have to pay for it?


I also take issue with major retailers in how the costs and prices pay for things really irrelevant, instead of training their sales staff. If the sales clerks knew what a fused vs. canvas suit was, then I could justify the markup. However, compare the markup for clothes compared to other goods, and it becomes unreasonable.

Also, when you think of preppy, you associate that with Northeastern Yankees well known for their thriftniess. If we had it our way, you could buy a Brooks Brother button down shirt which would last you a lifetime, with the rare but necessary change of collar.


----------



## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by isuityou_
> 
> Being a sales guy, I've noticed that there seems to be a number of complaints regarding prices and pricing of clothing. Interested in seeing some feedback, as I've always believed that things cost what they do, sure a designer or manufacturer may create an overpriced garment - but isn't "it is what it is" and if you actually want the piece, you'll have to pay for it?


Being a sales guy, I'm sure you don't have any problem with the price. Being a buying guy, I see it from the other side of the fence. Price may be "what it is", but if you actually want to sell the piece, won't you have to price it what someone is willing to pay? Sales and overstocks is the buyer asserting himself on price.

At any rate, you continue to gouge and I'll continue to bargain hunt.  Welcome to the board!

(P.S. Thom, the South will rise again... [><] )


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> [br(P.S. Thom, the South will rise again... [><] )


Oh Christ. Course, knowing you, my first thought was that that was a bow tie, not the Stars and Bars.

Harrumph.


----------



## Thom

Alan C,

Please tell me that was a bowtie, and not the symbol of the confederacy. It has nothing to do with tradition. Instead, it is a symbol of oprresion and hate. The symbol was not incorporated into southern flags untill after the civil rights movement.


----------



## AlanC

Why, Thom, it's the Alabama state flag, of course, the St. Andrew's cross (adopted 1895, by the way). Or the Scottish national flag (ca. 12th Century)--take your pick of color scheme.


----------



## RJman

Nice color scheme. Here's a link to a picture:

https://www.50states.com/flag/alflag.htm

Crimson St. Andrew's cross on a white field, patterned after the Confederate Battle Flag, and adopted in 1895. The bars forming the cross must not be less than six inches broad and must extend diagonally across the flag from side to side

I'll stop poking the hornet's nest now... heh heh.
So Thom, let's revive your ernest thread.


----------



## zignatius

> quote:_Originally posted by kencpollock_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Markus_
> 
> Ken,
> 
> I just picked up two Mercer and Sons shirts, simultaneous to picking up a BB oxford button down. Other than the fact that the Mercers only have six buttons to the BB's seven, they truly seem the same. I do not notice anything different about the collars. I think they're the same as they've always been.
> 
> Markus
> -----
> 
> 
> 
> nice. way to resolve the issue. it would seem odd that brooks brothers would abandon or deviate from one of its key signature products. it's just a guess, but my hunch is that someone bought one of brooks brothers' non-iron shirts (or other rogue yet market-friendly product) and it didn't have the same red and white label ... and then assumed the venerable label was gone forever. let me pull on another thread: i've been buying bills khakis for seven years and it occurred to me that they've changed their product to "pre-washed." just when you think a company really does it right, it CHANGES. (after all, isn't that what this am/trad/preppy brethren is after? keeping things the same, wearing the mothership of style from which everything else is borrowed, corrupted in the name of fashion? if i weren't such a democrat, i'd be even more pissed. anyway, i conclude by saying bills' pre-washed product just isn't the same (which is ironic, considering bills' entire brand mystique pivots around the way it used to be). anyway, they've washed about two years out of the products' durability (so people have better luck ordering the right inseam online, i suppose). i'm no expert, but i'm guessing pre-washed fabrics are bad for the environment and bad for the pants/fibers. if bills isn't going to make the stiff "wear like iron" khakis, no one will ... unless someone knows of a serious bills alternative.
Click to expand...


----------



## AlanC

Without reference to the Late Unpleasantness in the thread, has anyone tried Charleston khakis as an alternative to Bill's?


----------



## Thom

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Why, Thom, it's the Alabama state flag, of course, the St. Andrew's cross (adopted 1895, by the way). Or the Scottish national flag (ca. 12th Century)--take your pick of color scheme.


Okay, so Alabama wasn't one of those states that adopted putting the confederate symbol into their state flag during the height of the civil rights era. Still, the flag is obviously patterned after the Confederate Battle Flag.


----------



## malinda

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> Okay, so Alabama wasn't one of those states that adopted putting the confederate symbol into their state flag during the height of the civil rights era. Still, the flag is obviously patterned after the Confederate Battle Flag.


Enough, and this goes for everybody. Discuss topics related (however tangentially) to men's clothing.


----------



## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by malinda_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> Okay, so Alabama wasn't one of those states that adopted putting the confederate symbol into their state flag during the height of the civil rights era. Still, the flag is obviously patterned after the Confederate Battle Flag.
> 
> 
> 
> Enough, and this goes for everybody. Discuss topics related (however tangentially) to men's clothing.
Click to expand...

So, has anyone ever _worn _the Confederate Battle Flag? It might make a nice pocket square motif.


----------



## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> So, has anyone ever _worn _the Confederate Battle Flag? It might make a nice pocket square motif.


I've seen it on the back of a leather jacket before, but I wouldn't recommend the look unless you're a biker.


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## RSS

A Southerner by birth here ... raised in New Orleans ... having lived in the Northeast and England ... and now California & New York ... I take to a mix of American Traditional and English clothing. 

As khakis are my "jeans" (plain front for the American side and forward pleated for the English) ... I'm quite interested in the recent posts about Bills and Charleston. I've only recently heard about the Charleston trousers ... and have somehow missed them on the occasions I've been in Charleston (I assume there is some relation there ... as I've seen them in the Ben Silver catalogue). Can anyone comment on how the Charleston khakis (the twills as opposed to the poplins) compare to Bill's ... weight, quality, wear, etc? And does anyone have other khaki recommendations to consider?

Just want to add I'm old enough (49) to recall the Brooks Brothers of old ... and was sad to see the slide of recent years. That's when I discovered Ben Silver for myself ... and made more frequent visits to J. Press, Paul Stuart and the like. But, I understand Brooks Brothers was recently sold again -- although I doubt that's news to you fellows -- and is making a comeback. And, I too would prefer to see Brooks remain true to its American roots ... stocking American made goods ... supplemented by English ones. In fact, I have written them to share my opinion ... in the hope it might make a difference. 

I might add I was equally worried when some of the English tailors began having their ready-to-wear and made-to-measure lines produced elsewhere ... particularly Italy and China. I know that Huntsman -- and perhaps others -- is back to using an English company for its made-to-measure line. 

And one last question. Someone referenced Chipp ... are they still around? If so, please share the location.

RSS

PS Thanks for the information Tom22


----------



## tom22

I believe Chipp in its present incarnation is known as Chipp II and is located on an upper floor of the same building as J Press on Esat 44th Street.


----------



## Dan the Man

I knew that rebuke was coming.

AlanC,
How do your bow ties go over in Alabama? Another argument I have with my wife (see my other thread) is over bow ties. I think they look traditional and "conservative" (think Tucker Carlson). My wife thinks they are geeky and odd/eccentric. Are they accepted when you wear them?


----------



## marc_au

Can someone define what the *preppy style*is, l am not sure. l have followed this topic but l don't understand half of what is said.

GR8MAN (The shooman) B8MAN.


----------



## n/a

I am so very impressed with these posts! I predicted the American/Trad forum would receive some attention, but I never expected this much feedback. It goes without saying that I am pleased. Not just with the posts themselves, but with the proof (they provide) that devotees of the American Trad look are alive and well.

As to the question of the Brooks button-down, I can confirm that the red label two-ply is still being sold at the 346--without the collar lining. Again, I cannot speak to all the many "chain" stores out there. Nor can I speak to anything one might order through the catalog. I can only speak to the stock at the 346.

Regarding the question of North vs. South, I think the history of the American Trad look has been sufficiently chronicled, establishing its roots in the halls of Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, Lawrenceville, and Hotchkiss. And later, Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Amherst, Williams, Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown, and so on and so forth. I'm not sure when the look migrated South, but it's safe to say it would not have "taken" had it not been for Ivy Leaguers. After all, it was once known as the "Ivy League" look.

As to the matter of how American Trad relates to what's become known as the "preppy" look: Certain franchise-oriented retailiers, including J. Crew and Gap and Abercrombie, have attempted to replicate a look that has been alive and well in certain pockets of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic for several decades. But it's rare that they replicate the quality or the details of tailoring. In fact, they often get it very wrong. True-to-life students of American-Trad know it when they see it. As with most art, the difference is in the details.

I have a few suggestions for the devoted student of the look: take a road trip to Andover, MA. Spend the morning at The Andover Shop, where they still stock made-in-Scotland shetlands, undarted center vents, enough grosgrain to span circumfrence of the earth, and patchwork items made out of leftover stock--right there on the premises ("in house"). Then, drive to Cambridge and hang out at The Andover Shop and J. Press. 

Grab a cup of chowder and be on your way. 

Drive to NYC and hang out at the 346. If you still need more J. Press, walk about thirty feet (on 44th) and make a hard right. If it's a Saturday morning, we may pass each other. 

Harris


----------



## kabert

For many of us brought up in the more northern climates, I think "preppy" just comes naturally, as clothes fitting for the cold, wet fall/winter/spring weather are often associated with preppi-dome. We grew up wearing khakis and gray flannels, LLBean everything, heavy wool sweaters, etc. Moreover, I think preppy and the super-high-end clothes discussed on the forum more often than not go hand in hand. For example, today I'm wearing the classic preppy dressy wear of gray flannel slacks, medium blue long sleeve shirt, black leather belt and black loafers, along with a blue blazer. It just so happens that the blazer is Henry Poole, the shirt is Borrelli, the slacks are Incotex and the shoes are Grenson Masterpiece (all EBay purchases except the slacks).


----------



## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by Dan the Man_
> 
> AlanC,
> How do your bow ties go over in Alabama? Another argument I have with my wife (see my other thread) is over bow ties. I think they look traditional and "conservative" (think Tucker Carlson). My wife thinks they are geeky and odd/eccentric. Are they accepted when you wear them?


Must I think of Tucker Carlson?  (go easy on me jrleague!) Carlson is about my age, but I started wearing bow ties in college well before his rise to fame. The most prominent bow tie wearers then were George Will, Paul Simon and Daniel Patrick Moynihan. A good friend in college wore them, and he was probably the biggest influence on me to start myself. I bought my first bow tie at Harrods (summer 1991) and had a Yale man teach me to tie it while summering at Exeter College, Oxford. That first tie, which I still wear, was a Churchillian blue polka dot. I suppose they can have a bit of a geeky look, but I think they also can come across quite elegantly when worn correctly. They're certainly a staple in the American Trad look.

I generally get positive reactions from them with some good natured kidding sometimes. A couple of the young men at church have become big fans of the bow and one of them made the trip to the local (alas, mall) Brooks to buy his first bow tie. My wife, by the way, loves them. I was wearing a bow tie when we met. It, coupled with my pocket watch, won her over.

I probably wear bow ties 1/4 to 1/3 of the time, which is about the same ratio of bow ties to four in hands I own.


----------



## KenCPollock

> quote:_Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> And one last question. Someone referenced Chipp ... are they still around? If so, please share the location.
> Scott Sullivan, Berkeley, California
> PS Thanks for the information Tom22


There is a single office building at 11 E. 44th Street, wedged between the J. Press location and the side of Brooks. It has a plaque on the building saying "A.T. Harris Formal Wear." Actually, A.T. Harris is quite famous, having outfitted 4-5 Presidents for their inaugurations. See 
Sidney Winston, founder of Chipp, is deceased, but his sons have a desk at A.T. Harris and take orders there.


----------



## Dan the Man

Harris,
I think I know, but just to be sure, whay do you mean by darted/undarted? How does it change the look? I generally like the look of English suits but I have never liked side vents or ticket (sp?) pockets.
You also referred to patch and flap pockets. I would think a sports coat could have a patch pocket, but a suit wouldn't would it?


----------



## manton

> quote:_Originally posted by Dan the Man_
> 
> I think I know, but just to be sure, whay do you mean by darted/undarted?


If I may, "darts" are longish slits cut in the sides of a jacket, roughly along the ribcage on each side, from the middle of the chest (or in some cases from under the armhole) to the pocket. Cloth is then "folded back" inside the jacket and the hole is closed with an inside stitch. A finished dart will look like a long seam, basically identical to the back seam on a jacket, or the side seam on a trouser leg.



> quote:How does it change the look?


Darts narrow the jacket at the wast, giving it some shape (or "waist suppression") and slim down the jacket overall. Depending on how much cloth is folded back, and how the jacket is cut overall, this waist suppression can be quite subtle or quite extreme. Most jackets made today have two darts on each side. Traditionally, American jackets and some English jackets have one dart; only the Americans make a jacket with no darts (as far as I know).



> quote:I would think a sports coat could have a patch pocket, but a suit wouldn't would it?


Patch pockets go very well with informal suits, such as tweeds for winter, and linen or cotton for summer.


----------



## n/a

Nicely done, manton. Well said. And enough said. Dan, I trust that answers your questions.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Thom

As to the matter of how American Trad relates to what's become known as the "preppy" look: Certain franchise-oriented retailiers, including J. Crew and Gap and Abercrombie, have attempted to replicate a look that has been alive and well in certain pockets of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic for several decades. But it's rare that they replicate the quality or the details of tailoring. In fact, they often get it very wrong. True-to-life students of American-Trad know it when they see it. As with most art, the difference is in the details.



> I must disagree with this statement about how these franchises try to replicate the American-trad look. I don't think they've ever really tried to do this at all. First of all, when you talk about the Northeast to the Mid-atlantic, you're talking about a region that stretches from Maine to Maryland. Abercrombie and Fitch was founded in the Midwest, in a era long before the height of the preppie influence. What it really reflects was a midwestern approach, that they've strayed from in recent years. If you look through the catalogue, you really won't see items associated with preppy or american trad.
> 
> GAP doesn't try to attempt the preppy look. Instead, its overall purpose is to supply bland clothes which will all coordinate with each other. I'm sure when the preppy look is popular, they'll put out a few items to ride the bandwagon. Of course, the details and quality will not be that of American trad. If you look at its corporate structure, it is owned by the same company that owns Old Navy and Bananna Republic. It is intended to be a mid level retailer. It is not intended to provide high quality clothing. You're missing the point when you criticize it for not doing this.


----------



## n/a

My father's father shopped at the original Abercrombie & Fitch, which, for the record, was founded nowhere near the Midwest. In 1892, David Ambercrombie and Ezra Fitch founded the tiny retail shop that provided camping and outdoors goods to people who were into that sort of thing. The flagship store was always in Manhattan. The original A&F filed for bankruptcy a while back. 

As to the modern "Abercrombie & Fitch," I have no idea where it was founded. It doesn't matter as it has nothing to with my point, which is that it frequently ventures into the realm of wool crewnecks, flat-front chinos, madras, blazers, wool tartan button-downs, and ribbon belts, and baggy boxers. As do J. Crew and Gap.

So, to my eyes it seems more than evident that such retailers do, in fact, try to venture into the domain of American Trad. 

They fail, but they try. That was my point. 

Cheers, 
Harris


----------



## Dan the Man

So undarted would then be better for thin guys or fat guys? Or it doesn't matter.


----------



## manton

> quote:_Originally posted by Dan the Man_
> 
> So undarted would then be better for thin guys or fat guys? Or it doesn't matter.


Ahem. I am risking a beating by posting this in the "American/Trad" thread, but in my humble opinion, undarted coats look good on precisely NO ONE.

[Ducks to avoid incoming tomatoes.]

OK, perhaps I'll backpeddle a little. It might look okay on a _really_ fat guy (think Sidney Greenstreet). But I believe that such men are better off with a two-darted SB coat (subtle but extant waist) with a long lapel, cut a bit loose. If done well, that hint of a waist slims the middle just a tad.

But the tall, the slim, the muscular, etc. all look better wearing a coat with some shape, hence darts.


----------



## rojo

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> My father's father shopped at the original Abercrombie & Fitch...


In about 1985, while I was home from college during break, I wandered into a small, tasteful clothing shop in Seattle's Olympic Hotel. The sign said, "Abercrombie & Fitch"; I knew that the original A&F was no more, so I concluded that someone must have revived the name. The store was filled with traditional clothing and imported British goods, including some top quality cable-knit tennis sweaters, better than the Brooks Brothers model I already owned. I should have bought one of the sweaters. I did buy an umbrella with a beautiful wooden handle handmade in Italy, which drew compliments back at school. I never had the chance to go back to the little shop in the Olympic Hotel, and the next time I heard the name "Abercrombie & Fitch" was during the 1990s after it had already become what you see now.


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> In about 1985, while I was home from college during break, I wandered into a small, tasteful clothing shop in Seattle's Olympic Hotel. The sign said, "Abercrombie & Fitch"; I knew that the original A&F was no more, so I concluded that someone must have revived the name.


Right. In the early 1980s, the Preppy Handbook had a eulogy for the old Abercrombie. It must have come back soon after in some form, becuase in 1992 it was still a somewhat upscale classic-clothing store. Sometime in the mid-to-late 1990s it turned into Old Navy-quality clothes at Banana Republic prices


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## tom22

I wasn't there for the foundinmg of A&F. I do remember it's closing(In the shop now occupied by Joseph Banks on Mad. Ave. I think)&gt; The closing was a national event covered by CBS News. I still remember the announcer describing that "some looked as though they had never shopped there before (cut to hippy looking guys looking at stuff) and some looked as though they never shopped anywhere else (cut to old trads in 3 piece suits looking at expensive shotguns)". A&F was a legend which no one under the age of at least 30 can tell.


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## manton

Don't forget the porn company phase.


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## tom22

The original A&F had a couple of stores in CHi. SF and maybe somewhere else besides NY. It closed if I remember correctly in 1978. A year or two later the name was bought out and a chain of stores mostly inm alls offered "the best of A&F'. truth to tell they did just that. They were great. Offered a lot of the same stuff the original store did, including the leather animals (It would take a while to explain the reference). They were bought out buy some big chain that decided the money was in kids clothes, and so, I suppose, it was.


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## Thom

The modern AF headquarters is located in Ohio, and its target audience is toward jock/fraternity types in their teens and early 20s. Yes, they sell some of the attire listed. But, not every item. If you look at their merchendaise, they also sell denim and t shirts with logos. I don't think you can say they're really trying for an overall american trad look. Same with GAP. Basically, they'll sell anything if it makes them money. And, if a preppy look is popular that season, they'll sell those items. 

Now, if we are talking about J Crew and Polo, then that's a different matter.


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## rojo

I'd forgotten about the leather animals. They had some at the A&F store in the Olympic Hotel. Brown leather, about the size of a large ottoman. I remember a rhinoceros in particular. 

I just went to the A&F website and the first thing I saw was the hideously tattooed back of a shirtless youth. I'm clearly outside the target audience.


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## Thom

I understand now about the comment about AF. I thought the comment was in reference to today's AF in the mall. 

Is this also true when people call American Trad look the 'Ivy look'?
When Dartmouth was trying to recruit me, I didn't see anybody wearing anything like the things we are talking about. Instead, everybody was dressed like any other college attire- jeans, shirts, etc...


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## manton

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> Is this also true when people call American Trad look the 'Ivy look'?
> When Dartmouth was trying to recruit me, I didn't see anybody wearing anything like the things we are talking about. Instead, everybody was dressed like any other college attire- jeans, shirts, etc...


Yes. If Apparel Arts and other contemporary sources are to be believed, the look metastasized on college campuses in the late 1920s. I would say it died on campus in the mid-1960s. There were a few holdouts, more professors than students. But by 1970, it was dead.


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## rojo

manton, I concur with your timeline for the demise of the Ivy League look on the Ivy League campuses. I had a friend who went to Radcliffe who once said to me, "When we were freshmen in the fall of 1963, we looked and dressed just like our parents. When we graduated in the spring of 1967, we looked and dressed like the members of a motorcycle gang."


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## manton

rojo: Good line.

The transformation of Berkeley was amazing. (I am too young to have seen it up close, but I have heard from those who were there, and seen the pictures.) For 100 years, it was a tweedy little enclave of East Coast style and sensibility. It conciously emulated the culture and style of New Haven and Cambridege, and even Oxford and the other Cambridge. And then one day in October 1964, Mario Savio stood on top of a police car on Sproul Plaza, and everything changed _just like that_. Okay the story is more complicated, but the speed at which Berkeley went from being an old-fashioned, if off-beat, "trad-town" to being the epicenter of the counterculture was dizzying.

Then there's the other side of the bay. San Francisco 1964: Republican convention nomintates Barry Goldwater. San Francisco 1967: Golden Gate Park and the Haight host the Summer of Love. What the hell happened in a mere three years?


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## manton

Fans of the old A&F may find this amusing:

William F. Buckley, Jr.
June 20, 2001

Show your ID before reading

I tend to lose my cell phone and so noticed a display ad for khaki pants with a compartment just below the right knee that is perfect for keeping electronic equipment, and that led me to Abercrombie & Fitch. I waited at the counter for my cargo (!) pants and looked down on the A&F summer catalog featuring the usual handsome young man on the cover. But my attention was drawn to the subscription card alongside: "To subscribe: Fill out this card and head to the nearest A&F store with a valid photo ID."

With a valid ID? I found that odd, and asked the young man behind the counter, probably 19 years old, why IDs were required for subscribers to an Abercrombie & Fitch catalog, and he said, "Well, uh, it's kind of porny inside."

I walked away with it, and meditate the reaches of the sexualization of our culture.

Abercrombie & Fitch was for time immemorial a sports-equipment and men's clothing store. I cherish the story recorded in The New Yorker generations ago of the gardener on Long Island who yearned to buy an A&F barometer, finally saving up the money to do so. He took it back to his little house on the south shore, tapped it a few times impatiently, and stormed back to Manhattan on the next train, complaining that it was defective, its needle stuck at the mark "Hurricane." Abercrombie returned his money, and the plaintiff returned to Islip, to find that his house had been blown away.

Abercrombie's needle pointed surely at the hurricane of 1938, and presumably its managers feel sure that the way to sell their current brand of clothing is to flaunt the modern dress. This presents a difficulty, inasmuch as clothiers live and die from the sale of clothes. But the current A&F catalog goes far in suggesting that young men and women are better off wearing no clothes, which leaves the catalog reader wondering what it is that A&F will make money from. Perhaps its catalog, which of course is best advertised by the fiction that one really needs, in order to purchase it, an ID establishing that the purchaser is 18 years old.

Now this review skirts fuddy-duddyism; on the other hand, to be entirely blase about what A&F is up to would be dumb acquiescence in its hypocrisy. A&F is engaged in yet further expansion of advertising along the line pioneered by Calvin Klein, which is torso-oriented and, in the case of Abercrombie, aimed more at the pulchritude of the male than the female form. Very odd in a men's clothing store.

The catalog is introduced by a 150-word essay under the title "The Pleasure Principle." A definition ensues: "In psychoanalysis, the tendency or drive to achieve pleasure and avoid pain as the chief motivating force in behavior." And then an amplification: "Summer being our favorite time of the year and all, we've worked extra hard to bring you our best issue yet by letting the pleasure principle be our guide through the hottest months."

The following page gives us a jaunty blonde clutching her hair, wet from the ocean she just emerged from. If she is wearing anything, it would be below her pelvic joint. Above it, which is all the viewer can see, there are no clothes.

Next is a two-page spread in which six young men are shown, above the navel, and one woman. One spots a shoulder strap on the girl, which may be a bathing suit, though it is not descried by the camera. But lo, she does wear a watch band, sheltering the wrist's nudity. The men wear nothing. A few pages on, a young man wears tennis shoes (unlaced) and a towel over his head. At his waist a camera. The shorts are given perspective by the young man's erection.

A few pages on, the young man is entirely naked, leaning slightly over one knee. Across the page are six narcissistic photos of his windblown face in differing exposures. On to another young man entirely naked, one knee (the windward knee) held up. He is reposing on the deck of a sailboat, his back resting on an unfurled main. The very next page gives us a girl wearing a T-shirt on which one can actually make out the name of our hosts. "Abercrombie" is discernible, and then something on the order of "Open Beauty Pageant." That shirt tapers off at the lady's waist. Below the waist there is nothing at all, except, of course, her naked body.

A few pages later the young man is naked again on the boat, but wearing a drenched jacket that reaches only as far as his waist. A few pages later we have five beautiful blondes in full summer wear, draped about a Byronic young man evidently lost in the poetry of his reflections, a loose towel over his crotch.

And so on.

Speaking of nakedness, there was never a pitch more naked than Abercrombie's: the non-display of its products, in deference to sheer biological exhibitionism. The last part of the book actually depicts clothes of one kind or another, but the reader getting that far is hotly indignant: What are all those shirts and shorts and pants doing, interrupting my view of the naked kids! I mean, I showed you my ID, didn't I?


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## tom22

Saks Fifth Ave. had a branch devoted to mens clothes in New haven CT until 1972 or so. I guess that was a last hold out. Prep clothing, trad clothing. the Ivy league look, the collegiate look. I think it's the sam. All derived from Brooks school shop. It all ended in the 60s. though come to think of it, I wore it's remnants, khakis, cords, shetland sweaters, button down shirts, blue blazers, flannels, Harris tweed jackets, repp ties, duffel coats all through high school and college. Actually i still dress this way. Anyone want to stuff me and stick me in a museum?


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## tom22

Oh, and Mark AU. The website I think is jpressonline.com. Call them up and wait the 6 months for a catalogue. this year filled with scenes from the Yale campus. If you look closely you can see a skyview of Woolsey Hall and I can point out my season seats for the New Haven Symphony. This is the look. Almost exactly as it would have been 50 or 70 years ago on an Ivy league campus. It is what it is.


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## tom22

And to be precise, in my day, the early 70s or so we also wore Aran sweaters, jeans, down jackets and vests. Which I still sort of wear in the winter. it was a look and it caught my fancy when I was young.


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## manton

Tom Wolfe's article "Funky Chic" has some hilarious observations about the sartorial transformation of Yale from the 50s to the 70s.


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## n/a

Another aspect of American Trad: color. Lots of pink, yellow, light blue, and bright green. 
Harris


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## RSS

Manton mentioned the fact that U.C. Berkeley dressed in the American Traditional style into the 1960's. There was even a small haberdashery, George Goode, which offered clothing in the American Traditional style ... located just across Bancroft from the university. It wasn't a J. Press or an Andover shop ... but it wasn't bad. Unfortunately, it closed sometime in the 1990's. Frankly, I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did ... but there are a few around these parts -- mostly professors and professionals -- who believe in traditional American dress. 

As for why "Ivy League" took hold in the South ... my thought has to do with the fact that many Southerners -- particularly Episcopalians -- were sent "north" to school (prep and college). And until the 1960's -- seems to have been a less than magic decade -- many Southern families "summered" in Maine ... to get away from the heat.

Scott Sullivan, Berkeley, California


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## isuityou

Hi gang - thanks for the replies regarding pricing - yes, it's wise to bargain hunt, for there are many deals to be had, even for one who doesn't have to purchase at full price. Perusing the forum, y'all seem to be genuinely hardcore devotees to the traditional clothing lifestyle - and this is from one who thought he was the only guy in So. Cal. to appreciate it. I just picked up on the discussion about A&F - My first retail position in 1985. It had already been sold to the sporting goods retailer Oshman's, who I'm sure didn't know the difference between preppy and a tennis racquet. Although my personal clothing purchases were from some of the ol' school So. Cal.stores, At Ease, Phelps, Atkinson's, E.L. Huntington - A&F had a number of private label items that were great classic knock-offs on khaki's and oxford buttondowns.


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## Dan the Man

I think the decline of the American look around the 60's mirrored the decline in clothing formality otherwise. Khakis and a sport coat are "casual" clothing but now your lucky if you can get people to put on a coat and tie for a wedding or funeral or church. Kind of goes along with the 60's attack on all things traditional.

I've always had a question about the pastel color issue. I associate pastel with spring and summer. So what is the reason for putting pastels in a sweater? Could you wear that in the dead of winter? Or would that be a spring sweater.


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## Horace

Andover: I received the Andover Shop catalog a while back. Some smashing tweeds. I think they appear to compare favorably to the ones that are displayed by the London Cloth Club. In fact, one of the swatches of cloth that I received in the mail from the Cloth Club looks very similar to a jacket I ordered from Andover within the past decade.

Ed. Chapman's: I was in Vancouver for a bit and dropped in at Edward Chapman's on Pender Ave. Beautiful stuff -- though the selection was sparse at this time. They're having a sale on all woolens, 50% off, but I really didn't have time to look about. They claim that because they are part of the Commonwealth, they can offer their woolens much cheaper than can had in the USA. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. Chapman's had beautiful display cases for their gloves: old, polished mahogany, each pair in an individually-sectioned glass case. Looked like some of their formal gloves had been sitting within the display for ages. Also had Gloverall jackets at a very discounted price during the sale. Not many suits or jackets at this time, however. 

Undarted jacket: I haven't seen a true sack in Brooks or J. Press in a long time. Do they still even exist? There is some darting on all my jackets. Now with tweeds, how much fitting do you really want? The American/Trad or Natural Shoulder Ivy League Look is more than simply the sack suit. It's an amalgamation of something American and something English. It's influenced by the Second World War; it's more casual than the traditional British look. The idea behind it, as others have pointed out, is a certain ethos of invisibility, of discretion, of a Puritain aesthetique (which is of course countered by madras, and bright colors, and sillyness like whale-embroidered trousers, and whatnot). I wonder if we couldn't arguably trace some of it's origins back even further than 1920's and instead mark the point of it's origin back into the early or mid-19th-c?

As to the Southern aesthetique: I find it interesting that in many ways the South has always had (or fashioned themsevles as having) a separate culture from the North. They claim, in works such as _I'll take my Stand_ and Lanterns of the Levee_ by Wm. Alexander Percy, to have always looked more to Europe than to their Northern neigbhors for influence. This is certainly true in Southern belles-lettres. (I could go on and on about what I perceive to be a separate literary tradition to be found in the South since at least the mid-19th-c). Obviously, for sometime, American culture (including clothing -- perhaps we'd call it a "practical" culture) has shown inflections of Anglo-influence, but to my mind, there's always been a "Catholicity" in the Southern Style -- something more sensual than may be found in the more straight-laced Bostonian-New York-Philadelphia nexus.


Edit: I hadn't seen this page of replies before I replied. I note Scott's posting on idea of how South was influenced. This may be true. Or, even say Virginian colleges and university might've easily had the same influence as their Northern counterparts. Also, Harris's observation on color should be accounted for. One explanation may be that it provides a useful "irony" or whatnot.


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## manton

> quote:_Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> There was even a small haberdashery, George Goode, which offered clothing in the American Traditional style ... located just across Bancroft from the university. It wasn't a J. Press or an Andover shop ... but it wasn't bad. Unfortunately, it closed sometime in the 1990's. Frankly, I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did ... but there are a few around these parts -- mostly professors and professionals -- who believe in traditional American dress.


George Goode ... ah, yes. I was trying to remember the name for a thread on another forum, but couldn't. I bought my first pair of suspenders there ... navy with a gold stripe, naturally.

I think the store lasted as long as it did because of the counterculture. Which is to say, when the counterculture became the dominant culture in Berkeley, the old tweedy culture became the counterculture. The tweedies were not conservative politically, only stylisitically. They kept the flame alive through certain institutions -- OGB, I House, certain fraternities, the Faculty Club, the City Club, the Morgan Theater, etc. They arranged the bonfires, the Big Game celebrations, Midnight Madness, and all the rest. When I was there in the 80s, I used to say there were two kinds of people on campus: people who go to Berkeley, and people who go to Cal. I haven't been in a while, but I suspect that "Cal" is dying fast.


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## n/a

I think the observation about color and irony is right on the mark. My favorite trouser is a lime green wide wale cord I found at Murray's about ten years ago. One of my favorite sweaters: a salmon heather shetland from The Andover Shop. Color should not be reserved for summer alone. Bring out the lime green and rasberry pink for ties, belts, watchbands, socks, and pocket squares for the winter months. Then switch to patch madras items in late May. The Andover Shop still stocks a saddle sleeved shetland in what they call "Apple Green" that begs to be worn at Christmas parties. I know an old die-hard Trad (now in his 90s) who tells me he chose to forsake all basic, primary colors long ago. Why wear maroon when you can wear pink? Why wear hunter green when you can wear a bright kelly green? You should see his closet: a spectrum of color, yet traditionally cut.

See


Again, one looks to the great saints of Trad for counsel, including Senator Moynihan and Bud Collins.

Cheers,
Harris


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## tcoconn

Paul Winston, the son of one of the founders of Chipp is located at Winston Clothiers and Furnishers, 11 East 44 Street, Suite 501, NYC(212) 687-0850. He is very personable and will make you up whatever you like.


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## manton

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> I wonder if we couldn't arguably trace some of its origins back even further than 1920s and instead mark the point of its origin back into the early or mid-19th-c?


You probably could. What I meant was that it achieved its more or less final form in the late 20s. You can see pictures (or, better yet, Apparel Arts drawings, as they are in color) from as early as 1931, and the college kids are wearing clothes that we would all easily recognize today. They look almost like a contemporary J Press catalogue. I think before (say) 1930, enough elements would have been different -- in particular the cut of the clothes -- that the aggregate look would not have been the same.

Apparal Arts from this period has a lot of interesting articles geared to haberdashers about how to sell to prep school kids, college kids, and young men starting out in the professional world. The advice is of course intended to help shops keep customers for a long time. For that reason, it is good advice: don't sell faddish cloths, keep abreast of what's really being worn by their peers, know what works and what doesn't in the business world, etc.

What's interesting is that there is a presumption that as these guys get older they will "grow out" of the "trad" style and adopt, of necessity, a more polished, more London West End look. The articles seem to presume that "trad" is perfect for prep school and college, fine perhaps for the first few years after college, and forgivable through a guy's mid-20s, but too "young" for the serious, big-city professional in his prime. (Remember, I'm talking about articles written in the 1930s.)

It would seem from these articles, and from others I have read, that "trad" became the business uniform of America only in the 50s. There was brief spasm of exuberance right after World War II, known as the "Bold Look": outlandish patters, extreme silhouettes, lots of color, etc. It lasted maybe three years. Then, I suppose, all the business moguls who had gone to college in the 30s, and then off to war in the 40s, decided they preferred their old style to the over-the-top "Bold Look." And so "trad" became institutionalized beyond the campus.

Anyway, if you're really interested in the birth, evolotion, and spread of this look, I highly recommend checking out issues of Apparel Arts from the 30s. Not just the pictures! Read the articles too!


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## rws

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> The original A&F had a couple of stores in CHi. SF and maybe somewhere else besides NY.


One of the nicest A&Fs was in the Broadmoor Hotel, just outside Colorado Springs. I remember visiting it as a child, in 1960 or '61, and my father remarking that it seemed to have the best of the New York store.

When I returned to New England, fifteen years ago, I was delighted to learn that A&F had been revived. What a disappointment, then, to see upon entering the local "outlet" that all that had been revived was the once-valued name! 'Might as well put the Pierce-Arrow archer on the hood of a Nissan.


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## Thom

As for why "Ivy League" took hold in the South ... my thought has to do with the fact that many Southerners -- particularly Episcopalians -- were sent "north" to school (prep and college). And until the 1960's -- seems to have been a less than magic decade -- many Southern families "summered" in Maine ... to get away from the heat.

Scott Sullivan, Berkeley, California
[/quote]

Actually, when I went to interview at Dartmouth, I met another person there for interviews who was from the South. He was explaining to me that Dartmouth was not his first choice. Instead, he really wanted to go to the Citadel. In the South, he told me, they really worshipped the whole militrary tradition at places like the Citadel. So, to most people, it would be more impressive to go to a place like that than graduating from Harvard or Yale. That's why it was such a big deal that women were not allowed into the Citadel. It was the ultimate old boys club.


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## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> As to the Southern aesthetique: I find it interesting that in many ways the South has always had (or fashioned themsevles as having) a separate culture from the North. They claim, in works such as _I'll take my Stand_ and Lanterns of the Levee_ by Wm. Alexander Percy, to have always looked more to Europe than to their Northern neigbhors for influence. This is certainly true in Southern belles-lettres. (I could go on and on about what I perceive to be a separate literary tradition to be found in the South since at least the mid-19th-c). Obviously, for sometime, American culture (including clothing -- perhaps we'd call it a "practical" culture) has shown inflections of Anglo-influence, but to my mind, there's always been a "Catholicity" in the Southern Style -- something more sensual than may be found in the more straight-laced Bostonian-New York-Philadelphia nexus.


Very true, Horace. I never expected to see a reference to _I'll Take My Stand_ on the board. I had the good pleasure of visiting Andrew Lytle at his home in Monteagle a decade ago. (Um, I wore a Harris tweed coat...)

I would argue the separate literary tradition extends at least a century beyond the mid-19th Century.

(Cotton, a major product of the South, is used in making many clothes that we all wear.)


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## elkscout

Hello all. I'm new to this site and ignorant of some of the related terms. I have looked for a glossary on this site, but the closest thing is an advertisement to buy an encylopedia on CD. The links at the bottom of several pages that suggest to "click here to ask Andy a question..." do not work. The FAQs are quite brief, so I'll try to get my questions answered thru these forums.

1. What is a sack suit?

2. Has anyone ever discussed the latest shape of shoes (both men and women's), that being the squared/blocked off toe? I think it looks stupid, especially on women's shoes. It's an unnatural look in that it doesn't complement the shape of the human body.

3. I read the article about hats and related etiquette, but little was mentioned about baseball caps, which are extremely more popular.
Being raised in the South, I learned that removing your headgear while in a restaurant and espeically at the table was manatory. Now I see all the knuckleheads who apparently don't have a clue or could care less and it apparently bothers me to the point I want to say something whenever I see such act. Any thoughts?


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## RJman

> quote: _Originally posted by elkscout_
> 
> Hello all. 1. What is a sack suit?


 FYI styleforum has a sticky post glossary that is helpful. The sack suit is the standard or stereotypical American-cut suit, not fitted at all, usually natural-shoulder, no waist-tapering or body definition, rather asexual.


> quote:
> 2. Has anyone ever discussed the latest shape of shoes (both men and women's), that being the squared/blocked off toe? I think it looks stupid, especially on women's shoes. It's an unnatural look in that it doesn't complement the shape of the human body.


 That was several shoe styles ago. It's completely naff and is now seized on by American yobbos who wear untucked striped dress shirts with the tails hanging out and T-shirts showing through the collar opening. More recently was the pointy-shoe look, which got taken to its extreme with odd needle-pointed fence-climber type shoes about 2 years ago. Also fairly naff although Berluti makes a very attractive pointy shoe. Nowadays chisel-toed shoes are in fashion, which is somewhat related to the new vogue for quality and custom, chisel toes being quite innately elegant. What is a chisel toe? Suppose a pointy toed shoe and a sqaure toed shoe mated and their child got all the good genes.



> quote:
> 3. I read the article about hats and related etiquette, but little was mentioned about baseball caps, which are extremely more popular.
> Being raised in the South, I learned that removing your headgear while in a restaurant and espeically at the table was manatory. Now I see all the knuckleheads who apparently don't have a clue or could care less and it apparently bothers me to the point I want to say something whenever I see such act. Any thoughts?


 I am with you here. I saw Ronald Reagan's funeral cortege go by and though I may not have always agreed with his politics I was incensed at the people who kept their hats on their heads and who applauded his coffin as if they were glad he was dead. Show some respect, people.


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## elkscout

You're probably right about the square toe shoe being a few years old and out of style now. Too bad all those still wearing this type hasn't been told. Of course, from a financial standpoint, I can understand why a lot of us, myself included, would continue to wear clothing that might be dated. As for the chiesel toe, I think I know of what you're talking about, and it appears less awkward to look at.

Thanks for the tip on the glossary.

As for the sack suit, it sounds somewhat generic. I have noticed men's pant lenghts have changed, but I don't know what's currently "in season"- I just know what I don't like, and that's slacks or pants that look way too long in the length for the person wearing them. Maybe it's the "old man" in me, but I always preferred slacks with only a slight break in them. And I can't stand these individuals who think they look cool with their pants waist halfway down their ass, with their underwear showing.

I also like the more traditional two button coat/blazer, sometimes with a french? cut lapel, as opposed to this sportcoats that have buttons all the way up and down. What's the point of wearing a tie with such coats?


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## Dan the Man

I to was glad to see someone who appreciates, or atleast is familiar with, _I'll Take My Stand_. Alan, what was the occasion when you met Andrew Lytle?<br><br>
Re. square toed shoes. Do you mean sort of clunky and square toed? Or a sort of tapered square toe. (Maybe what is meant by chisel-toed.) I currently reside in Italy courtesy of Uncle Sam, and the square toed shoes are almost all you can get over hear, esp. in their dress shoes. They tend to have more exposed seams and stitching than we are used to, but I think they look good. There is an inside jook amoung us Americans over here that you can tell the Americans from the Europeans by just looking at their shoes. (Of course the fact that we are all overweight and have more than 1 kid gives it away as well.) (BTW, no one wears baseball caps over here except Americans, another dead give away.) I bought a couple of pairs of their shoes and was jokingly accussed of going native.<br><br>
Since the Southern thing has come up here, I have a question. (Maybe this reguires it's own post, but I'll run it by y'all.) Did any of you see the movie _The Ladykillers_. A better movie than the reviews, imho. How would you discribe Tom Hanks' suits. Here is what I noticed. They were obviously of a lightweight material. They had patch pockets. (Harris will like that.) But they had relatively wide lapels, and the lapels were softly curved, not sharp. Is this authentic, do you think?

Deo Vindice


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## rojo

Yes, it was a shock to hear people cheering and applauding President Reagan's funeral procession. But some people did the same thing when the hearse with Princess Diana's coffin drove through London after her service. In contrast, I remember reading about the workers in the fields who removed their hats, dropped to their knees, and bowed their heads in prayer when the train carrying Queen Victoria's remains rolled slowly past. Kneeling might be a little extreme for the modern era, but at least remove the hat and observe a moment of dignified silence.

The South has always valued tradition and decorum. My great-grandfather (1st Lieutenant, 16th Virginia Infantry) used to refer to "our plantation manners in Virginia." Certainly during the heyday of Ivy League clothing the look was not confined to the eight campuses of the Ivy League. It would be interesting to review mid 20th century yearbooks from Virginia schools like Washington & Lee and UVA, for example, or to hear from alumni of the period.


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## Tyto

[Tom22]
When I returned to New England, fifteen years ago, I was delighted to learn that A&F had been revived. What a disappointment, then, to see upon entering the local "outlet" that all that had been revived was the once-valued name! 'Might as well put the Pierce-Arrow archer on the hood of a Nissan.

[Tyto]
Not quite--at least the Nissan is still quality, whatever the stylistic shortcomings.  Those P-As, though... just magnificent.

I, too, shared the disappointment a few years ago, when the first of the new A&F stores opened near me in LA. I'd heard of the A&F of old, had images of their general product vaguely in my memory, and hadn't known of the closure in the 1980s (I was perhaps a bit young to follow fashion just then), but when I walked into the store, my first words to my then-girlfriend were to the effect of, "Man, this is just a down-market Banana Republic."

__________

Fair and softly goes far.


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## n/a

Interesting that someone brought up UVA and Washington and Lee. I'm familiar with both campuses. Both remain very traditional--in terms of both manners and dress. Lots of button down oxfords and chinos. And penny loafers. Blazers and ties at Saturday afternoon football games are still de rigeur. I imagine this is also very much the case at schools like Sewanee, Furman, and Wake Forest.

I'm not sure that's (consistently) still the case at Northeastern schools where the natural-shouldered look "took hold" long ago. I doubt that it is.

Cheers,
Harris


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## rojo

Harris, my brother and his wife are both Washington & Lee alumni. I know from meeting their friends and seeing the alumni magazine that traditional clothing prevails. Being under age 40 myself, what I don't know is when the Ivy League style became established at W&L and other Virginia schools.


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## Rocker

I went to Washington & Lee. Graduated in 1990, the second co-ed class. It was certainly a conservative place. Blue blazer and tie for every rush night, blue blazer and tie for football games, black tie fancy dress ball, etc. Daily wear pretty much consisted of weejuns, dirty bucks, or red wing boots, khakis or Levis, button down shirts (we did have a professor who still required a tie in his history class) or pique knit shirts, shetland sweaters, classic wool topcoats/chesterfields - wearing anything other than boxer shorts led to hazing. Failure to wear all-natural fabrics could get a person seriously hazed. There was a book published a couple of years back (Come Cheer for Washington and Lee) and it shows photos of the student body to back when photographs started. I would think W&L adopted the Ivy League look pretty quickly. Guys would have inherited it from their fathers or brothers who might have gone to school up north. Plus W&L students tend to have money - it would been expected that they would have readily adopted a class identifier such as the Ivy league look. It's odd that many people still think of the Ive Leagues as bastions of the old time look, when it really is certain southern schools which preserve it (or at least did until I left). Based on pictures I've seen of the student body recently, it looks like even W&L is not quite as "classic."


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## Thom

What, 1990?? Is that a typo? I'm sure the southern colleges held on to this ivy look much longer than the north, but college is college. I can't imagine today's student wearing anything like this to the classroom. The dressiest thing I saw somebody wearing would be a polo.

I knew a guy who graduated from UVA just a few years ago, and he never, never dresses like this at all. Instead, its pretty informal. Maybe, it has something with the fact that he's from Pittsburg, but still.

I find it hard to believe that college students would dress in this manner for a football game. Maybe for a fraternity related event, but football? Let's look at Duke and Wake Forest basketball. Nobody dresses like that for those games.


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## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> I find it hard to believe that college students would dress in this manner for a football game. Maybe for a fraternity related event, but football? Let's look at Duke and Wake Forest basketball. Nobody dresses like that for those games.


Au contraire, bon ami. Just this season I have seen television highlights from Auburn football games where the young college men are dressed in polo collar shirts with repp striped ties in Auburn colors. Many had on blazers. I'm talking large groups of young men, certainly fraternity brothers. Two of our young men at church have been so inspired when attending the games with their newly matriculated sister that they have taken to wearing the ties themselves. A positive trend, even if they are Auburn ties.

And as far as looking at Duke basketball, I try to refrain as much as possible from such an unpleasant event. Go Wildcats.

Dan, I was invited to visit Mr. Lytle with a Russian woman who was researching the Southern Agrarians. It was through my connections with Dr. Russell Kirk. One of Dr. Kirk's daughters visited as well.

Deo Vindice


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## Rocker

Not a typo- 1990. Look, W&L was/is far more conservative than UVA - UVA is a state school after all - it's "intellectual" reputation is made on the backs of out-of-staters who wear cotton/poly blend short sleeve shirts. Yes, the tradition at W&L was go to the fraternity house (90% Greek at the time) for a cocktail party in coat and tie; bring drinks to the stadium; sit politely in coat and tie for the first half and then leave - go back to the house. Lacrosse - at the time- was THE big sport (another Yankee/northern/mid-Atlantic tradition). I remember (at the time I came from New Jersey) Duckhead Khakis were de rigueur (I'd never seen them before) - at least, they were Freshman year. Dirty bucks were worn by more than half the male population. There would be speeches at Lee Chapel and they were largely attended in coat and tie - I can remember speeches by Sandra Day O'Connor, Tom Wolfe, Robert Novak, Elliott Abrams - all largely attended by be-tied and be-jacketed students. In my time, W&L looked the way people THOUGHT Harvard looked. I remember the old composite from the fraternity house (always Black and White) and even in the 70s,it was blue blazers and madras jackets with repp ties, albeit, with scraggly hair. I thinl the large perecntage of Texans at W&L introduced an affinity for boots, but other than that - it was strictly 100% cotton button-downs, hakis, bucks, weejuns, Levis, and shetlands. Fraternity rush wasl ALL coat and tie. Hell, I had to go to the thirft store to buy a cheap suit and tie so that it could be torn from my body upon fraternity initation.


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## rojo

My brother graduated from W&L in 1992 (you might well have known him, Rocker, particularly if you were a Beta) and what you describe is what he wore. He couldn't get through a year at W&L, much less four years, without a couple of blue blazers, a collection of button down oxford shirts, and some repp ties. For trousers he had khakis, Levi's, and corduroys. I know what he had because after he got engaged he abandoned much of his college wardrobe at our mother's house and I went through and took anything I wanted before we gave the rest away.

The selection of men's footwear on the W&L campus was fairly limited. He wore his dirty bucks much of the time, although he said that his red wing boots were indispensable. The boots, he explained, were necessary for sloshing safely through the beer and broken glass found late at night on the floor of fraternity house basements. He never cared for weejuns, although "lots of guys at W&L wore them." He said that another shoe popular with men on the W&L campus was the classic canvas boat sneaker.


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## Dan the Man

I attended UGA in the late 80's. (Go Dawgs. Beat Florida.) The masses generally wore jeans (Levis). But to games the fraternity boys wore Duckhead khakis, white button down shirts, and ties. Usually rep ties. Shoes were dirty bucks, loafers, and dock shoes. Also a lot of people wore what we called duck shoes. They had waterproof uppers but were often worn when it was bone dry anyway. Bucks were correctly worn only in summer. You rarely saw blazers but when you did they were blue. I had a friend who attended Mercer at the same time. There the Blue Blazer was much more in evidence. After Georgia I attended Emory. There, this sort of fashion was much less in evidence. Although I admit I didn't interact with the undergraduates very much.


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## n/a

There are at least two salespeople at the NYC J. Press who will confirm for you that J. Press is "still alive in America" because of shoppers from below the Mason-Dixon. My observation is that a minority of Northeasterners still flirt with the look, while a majority of well-dressed Southerners consider the American Trad look the way to go. 

This, of course, is due to the fact that the Mason Dixon features its very own shops specializing in traditional dress. Ben Silver has already been mentioned. As has H. Stockton. Residents of Charleston know of Max's Men's Store, and then of course there are the great "college shops" of the Southeast, including Eljo's in Charlottesville (still a bastion of American Trad), Julian's in Chapel Hill, and Ferguson's in Athens. Beecroft and Bull and Peter Blair (both in VA) also deserve mention.

Cheers,
Harris


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## RSS

I have an invitation to a casual dinner party this weekend ... and while the dinner is being held at a friend's country house in New York ... all attending will be Southerners or expatriates. The "dress" literally reads "tweed"! I agree that Southerners are today doing more to keep American Traditional alive and fairly well.

Thom wrote ...


> quote:_Actually, when I went to interview at Dartmouth, I met another person there for interviews who was from the South. He was explaining to me that Dartmouth was not his first choice. Instead, he really wanted to go to the Citadel. In the South, he told me, they really worshipped the whole militrary tradition at places like the Citadel. So, to most people, it would be more impressive to go to a place like that than graduating from Harvard or Yale. That's why it was such a big deal that women were not allowed into the Citadel. It was the ultimate old boys club._


That is true of some ... but certainly not all in the South. It would be very unfair to judge an entire region of the country based on one person's opinion.

Scott Sullivan, Berkeley, California


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## DukeGrad

Alan C, though I would not see your comment?
Go Wildcats my you know what!
LOL
Proper attire is the south, I am a Yankee by birth, have a crappy Brooklyn accent.
I spent the better part of my life down south, Ft Bragg, NC.
I went to college down south, did my post grad down there.
Both kids born there.
I can honestly say, proper attire is a fixture down there.
They love the Navy Blue Blazer, their mint juleps.
My Harvard/Princeton/Yale friends?
Who gave you all the rights to Traditional Attire?
LOL
It all leads to one thing my dear southern friends?
Basketball, they cant play the game, so the next best thing is they dress better than us and invented it?
This is the truth according to Jimmy!




Jimmy


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## KenCPollock

> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> Proper attire is the south
> Jimmy


But not in Atlanta, which is LA east. See my old post about what happens when I try to wear a tie to a fancy Atlanta restaurant. See

I do not get around to many other Southern cites, except to New Orleans, where they dress much better than here. Friday lunch at Galatoire's in New Orleans is a mind-blowing experience; it makes Ben Silver look mod; white suits, seersucker suits, and butterfly bows; ladies with hats, etc. I would imagine the smaller the Southern city, the better they dress.


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## manton

> quote:_Originally posted by kencpollock_
> 
> Friday lunch at Galatoire's in New Orleans is a mind-blowing experience; it makes Ben Silver look mod; white suits, seersucker suits, and butterfly bows; ladies with hats, etc. I would imagine the smaller the Southern city, the better they dress.


The food's not bad either!


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## Comolli

Good Friends:

I attended the University of Virginia in the '60s. It was all-men, thank God, and I wore a coat and tie to class, to every sporting event, and many was the black tie dinner I attended. I've noted before that I often saw William Faulkner, Nobel Laureate, coach third base for the baseball team dressed in a three-piece suit.
The Yankees didn't dress better than us Southerners. They had better clothes but they lacked the casual attitude and manner of the Southerner and wore their clothes less at ease, less appealingly. My roommate in Law School went to W&L and he was from a wealthy Memphis family and he dressed like he just stepped out of The Young Men's Shop in Charlottesville. He was my ideal because he wore his clothes with little effort. That was the difference I saw between us and the Ivy League Yankees. 
My undergraduate roommate was also from Memphis: his forebears had been Confederate cavalrymen. All his brothers had gone to Virginia and had given him all their Brooks Brothers clothes. He and I were the same size. So I wore mostly Brooks Brothers as an undergraduste. Also, we all wore Aldens. (When I went in the Navy, he gave me his old Brooks Brothers Navy blues.)
Clothes are one thing but how you wear them is another.

John M. Comolli


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## Thom

Yes, the tradition at W&L was go to the fraternity house (90% Greek at the time) for a cocktail party in coat and tie; bring drinks to the stadium; sit politely in coat and tie for the first half and then leave - go back to the house.



> [xx(] Sounds like horrible fans. What's the point of even showing up to the game if you're going to leave at halftime?
> 
> Dressing up for a football game as a college student just doesn't seem really fun. How can you really enjoy all the pregame festivities in the parking lot if you're dressed like this.


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## RSS

Oh Thom ... it's just a myth that "dressing-up" is uncomfortable.

Scott Sullivan, Berkeley, California


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## rojo

Thom, are you saying you don't think it's possible to enjoy football festivities while wearing a coat and tie? I always thought a coat and tie added to the enjoyment of festivities but, as I recall a line from one of my favorite movies,

"If you don't understand, I really can't explain."

I'll be wearing a suit and tie for Thanksgiving dinner this year. One side of my family even requires jacket and tie to open Christmas presents, children included.


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## Dan the Man

Ken,
I'm from Fayetteville, GA, just south of Atlanta. It is no longer fair to the rest of the South to think of Atlanta as typical of the South. Too many of those 4 million people are immigrants from the north or elsewhere who have come for the jobs. That is why when I move back to Georgia, I'm going to move to Macon or Savannah or Athens or Valdosta. Anywhere but Atlanta.


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## DukeGrad

Mr. Comolli,
You tell them damn yankees!
LOL
Love it, you are right, I am a Yankee, I understand your very good point.
They wear their clothing with ease down South.
Dan the Man, 
Macon is really nice, spent a lot of years in Georgia, jump school at Ft Benning, as well as Ranger.
I know the state very well.
Valdosta is nice, stay away from Dublin, Red Neck Capital of the world, have their own festival even!
Gentlemen, the Civil War is ov
LOL
Have nice weekende!!!

Jimmy


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## Rocker

Thom,

Sport weren't taken particularly seriously at W&L. When I was there, Lacrosse was the only Division 1 sport that we had and even it converted to Division 3 while I was there - because W&L offered no athletic scholarships. W&L used to be a Division 1 school for football, but the story is that there was a cheating scandal in the early fifties involving the football team - the players were expelled, but the school decided that being competitive in athletics was incompatible with its educational mission. Accordingly, from the 50s onward, W&L has not offered athletic scholarships. The bright side of this was that all the athletes truly were "student athletes." W&L students, at least when I was there, had a certain ennui and disdain for showy things - painting oneself in school colors, wearing stupid hats, and making loud dog-like guttural sounds was not considered "fun". One knew when he went there that one wasn't going to a big school and so, one lost the big football stadiums, the cheerleaders, etc. - but a student received other things in compensation. 

In any case, going to the games in coat and tie was not a problem and didn't diminish the fun. Dressing "formally" sometimes creates it own sense of occasion. As a college student, I'd rather go to a football game in khakis and a blazer with a girl in a sundress on my arm then go in shorts and T-shirt with a girl in similar attire. What fun is it to be part of the herd/rabble?


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## Thom

When I talk about fun, I mean all the beer and pregame barbeques there are in the parking lot before the game. Also, dressed in a blazer, it seems to dampen the whole craziness needed. That's the fun part of participating in college athletics- the whole spirit of it all. 

Its strange that people would dress up for football games, but not baseball or basketball games. 

Rocker,
There are plenty of ways to get around non-atheletic scholarships. When I was being recruited for Dartmouth, they were going to give me a academic scholarship even though I was only an average student in high school. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Ultimately, I decided to go to a state college to play ball.


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## Rocker

Thom,

We'd start drinking at the fraternity house before the game, carry our drinks with us, leave at half-time, and go back to the house and drink. There was plenty of alcohol, music, - it was fun.

I hear what you're saying about the scholarships - and I didn't make the decision. Still, sports scholarships have proved highly problematic for most colleges. And the temptation for a college to cut admissions corners in order to get a good athelete is probably corrupting. W&L has a VERY strict honor system - it essentially incorporated bad acts committed while being "identifable" as a W&L student. Technically, if a student on spring break wore a school shirt in Mexico and used a fake ID, for instance, and another student saw it and reported it when they got back to school - that student could be brought up for a code violation (ignoring obvious evidentiary issues)Accordingly, students, while I was there, withdrew or were convicted of honor violations, not just for academic offenses, but for using a fake ID at a bar in town (they were identifiable as an W&L student and they were lying), shop lifting at a Kroger, etc. and there were also no warnings or reprimands - no "minor" offenses; it was single sanction - only one possible penalty for lying or cheating (unlike UVA, or the service academies, now). So, I think the university at the time, thought that by "paying" students to play sports they were bringing in people who might not have the character that they wanted (drawing that conclusion from the cheating scandal involving the football team).


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> When I talk about fun, I mean all the beer and pregame barbeques there are in the parking lot before the game. Also, dressed in a blazer, it seems to dampen the whole craziness needed. That's the fun part of participating in college athletics- the whole spirit of it all.
> 
> Its strange that people would dress up for football games, but not baseball or basketball games.


It's strange to me that one would think that one couldn't have a good time in coat and tie. Outer restraint might lead to more real fun than sweats and t-shirts and face paint.

Why there was/is a decline in those students who dress for college leads me to some observations that I'll leave for another time.

However, I did want to mentioin that I wonder how "Southern" a state is Virginia, in respect to the whole North/South divide. And is Hampden-Syndey still all-male? How many all-male colleges are left? There are, of course, still all-male prep schools but very few with "formal" dress requirements.

A real pity for boys and girls both, this co-ed ed. I think. And a pity that a uniform or proper dress is no longer required. Kills the dignity of the whole enteprise.


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## GreyFlannelMan

Hampden-Sydney continues to be all male, and I think it is one of the few left. I briefly attended H-S (Go Tigers!) before transfering to a larger coed urban university "up North" (in D.C.). 

While Virginia's demographics have evolved over the last few decades, I think it is generally agreed upon that Northern Virgina (the DC suburbs) isn't Southern at all. It is comprised mostly of Yankee transplants who work in D.C. but don't want to live there. But Charlottesville, Williamsburg, Richmond, Roanoke and Farmville (the largest city near H-S) continue to be considered quite Southern in flavor and character.


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## Comolli

Horace and Good Friends:
Mr. Pollock and I have often discussed in these pages the decline of the tradition in America. In the past the tradition was fostered by all men's schools with dress codes. Young men were taught how to dress, to take pride in one's appearance, and what it was to be a proper gentleman. This tradition has been destroyed for little good reason that I know of, other than silly socialist egalitarianism. 
Horace, I am in complete and utter agreement with you. But, I noticed you have some observations about this matter which Mr. Pollock and I would surely like to hear. Please give us the opportunity to reflect on your thoughts about the way students now dress and the impact on us of same.

John M. Comolli


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## rider

> quote:Gentlemen, the Civil War is ov


 in Richmond VA, it's not. Seems like it just won't go away. The 'Old South' begins at Richmond.



> quote:Virginia's demographics have evolved over the last few decades,


well, there is 'Occupied Virginia', and then there is Virginia. The occupation has now engulfed Fredricksburg as well. I live in an old home on the Cold Harbor Battlefield; a short walk over to many trench systems and dugouts that are preserved naturally to this day, they were so well built (over the course of one day, btw).


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## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by GreyFlannelMan_
> 
> While Virginia's demographics have evolved over the last few decades, I think it is generally agreed upon that Northern Virgina (the DC suburbs) isn't Southern at all. It is comprised mostly of Yankee transplants who work in D.C. but don't want to live there.


Yes, indeed: Occupied Virginia.



> quote: But Charlottesville, Williamsburg, Richmond, Roanoke and Farmville (the largest city near H-S) continue to be considered quite Southern in flavor and character.


I think this is correct. It is also well to remember that the South is not a monolith. Even within Virginia you will find the Tidewater different than, say, Lexington. The Upper South is different from the Lower South. Southerners in Alabama (where I live now) also are different from Southerners in South Carolina (where I did graduate work). There again, you have an older coastal patrician South versus a newer frontier South. Charlestonians would argue they are different from those in Columbia. Certainly Texas (more Western influence) and Louisiana (French, etc) have unique characteristics. All of this will be expressed in dress.

Atlanta, mentioned above, sometimes makes one think Sherman came through 140 years too early. No offense meant to our Atlanta forum members. Birmingham, too, (like new Atlanta) is a post-War city.


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## rider

another interesting point - here, in Hanover County, suits are still the required dress for High School dances, Homecoming, etc.; not by the school system, but by the students themselves! Also, my 16 year old son hade a date in traffic court this week and I thought it was interesting to note that he automatically got up and dressed in a suit and came to my room to borrow a tie, which he agonized over being concerned about his appearance. I doubt, if you were to stop by a courthouse up North, you would find too many 16 year olds dressed in suit and tie.


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## n/a

As a Yankee (and NYC suburbanite) who nonetheless appreciates what has been said about the South's ongoing appreciation of sartorial etiquette, I do feel compelled to make an observation. 

That observation is that while the South may be traditional and "coat-and-tied" all the way (my travels throughout the South confirm this), I'm not sure there's an abiding appreciation for what I understand as the authentically Trad look. In fact--and please don't use this as an occasion for stone-throwing--I'm fairly confident that most well-dressed Southerners I know have not a clue as to the difference between (mere) "traditional dress" and the unique look that is Trad. 

Yes, Southerners may "dress up" more frequently, but I've seen many a "well dressed Southerner" wearing darted sportcoats, pleated trousers, and wide ties. While the fabric may have been sufficiently appropriate (tweed, seersucker, moleskin), the cut was not at all Trad. Someone mentioned that Aldens could be seen on the feet of W&L students. I don't doubt that, but in my experience there are only a couple of shoes in the whole Alden inventory that fit nicely under the category of American Trad...and Brooks has carried those two styles longer than anyone. Alden extended the scope of their inventory, no doubt in response to those who refused to wear nothing more than tassels and high-vamped penny's in color 8 shell cordovan.

I'm sure I'll received some criticism for this observation, but I think it should be noted that Trad, at least as I understand it, is quite narrow in scope--to the point of frustrating those unschooled in the look. Maybe this will serve to illustrate my point: A shetland sweater in heather pink is Trad; a cashmere sweater in the same shade of pink is not, nor is a shetland is brown or charcoal. A wide-waled cord in kelly, pink, or a maize yellow is Trad, but not if it's pleated. And a plain front cord in brown is, well, "just another cord." If/when one is forced to wear a staid ensemble consisting of charcoal, tan, navy, or brown, then the way of Trad is to spruce it up with vibrant grosgrain pastels (no dark leather, thanks very much). At least that's the way I've learned, but then I'm a hopelessly committed student to the New England/Mid-Atlantic Trad I learned long ago.

Trad is about VERY traditionally cut/styled clothing in VERY traditional fabrics...yet in bold, vibrant colors. If/when Trad is reduced to (mere) "traditional dress," anything can be said to fit under the category, including a lot of truly boring stuff. 

For the record, I've seen the authentically Trad look (at its best) only on the Upper East Side, suburban NYC, and New England vacation spots. In fact, I'm tempted to think of the look as unique to the Mid-Atlantic and New England. Southerners may "dress up," but pleated Duckheads, a darted Corbin blazer, and a striped bowtie in a matte color do not qualify as Trad. 

A longtime New York family (the Prenners) brought New England Trad to the South, for which many Southerners are thankful. 

Respectfully,
Harris


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## n/a

...oh yes, here's my two cents on darts: they're a symbol and little more. In an age when darted sport and suit coats fit as loosely and freely as any sack you'll find at The Andover Shop, darts matter little in terms of actual fit and/or freedom of movement. The typical darted jacket "takes in" VERY little fabric. Especially the American-made ones. 

So, again, as with so many things (plaquet buttons, working jacket buttons, narrow lapels, patch pockets, direction of pleats, length of button down collars, coin pockets, etc.), it has almost nothing to do with actual fit or practical usage and everything to do with what it symbolizes. As a symbol, the undarted sack says "Not from Europe; 100% American." One remains with the undarted sack for the same reason one refuses a thinly-shaped low-vamped loafer in a light shade of calfskin tan: it wreaks of Europe. Or Saville Row. Or GQ. Take your pick. 

Harris


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## AlanC

You are probably right, Harris. I think the point has been made that Southern dress most likely does look more to Europe, particularly England than does the New England 'Trad' look. I might, however, object to Yankees coopting the term 'American Trad' for their own peculiarities, a several hundred years bad habit. Something like 'Ivy League' might be more appropriate. As shocking as it often is to Northeasterners, 'American' means more than the area surrounding Boston Harbor.

You might object, but perhaps we could list strict 'Ivy League' as a sub-category of traditional American dress.

As I've said previously, I do appreciate you leading the charge here on the board for renewed focus on traditional American attire, particularly the Ivy League look. It was a needed voice on the forum, I think.


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by rider_
> 
> well, there is 'Occupied Virginia', and then there is Virginia. The occupation has now engulfed Fredricksburg as well.


As someone who grew up in Manassas and who knows why Manassas was famous before Lorena Bobbit came along, I resent that remark. Well, okay, I can't resent it too much because there's a lot of truth to it.



> quote:
> I live in an old home on the Cold Harbor Battlefield; a short walk over to many trench systems and dugouts that are preserved naturally to this day, they were so well built (over the course of one day, btw).


A soldier in Sherman's army during the campaign that culminated in the capture of Atlanta commented that Johnston's (and this was obviously before Hood had replaced Johnston) men seemed to carry their breastworks with them as they marched, so fast did they reappear at the end of every day's march. It's rather interesting to compare the entrenching skills of both sides at the beginning of the war to their skills at the end of the war.


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## John Hill

This has been such a great topic I finally decided to take the plunge and register. Although Florida is not part of the traditional Deep South, I am old enough to remember the unwritten dress codes you had to follow. My wife had to completely change her wardrobe when she moved to Jacksonville since St. Petersburg was a far more laid back resort kind of community.

Two other good sources for comments on the distinct Southern look in traditional clothes is Alison Lurie's "The Language of Clothes" and the older edition of John Molloy's "Dress for Success." Living in a hot climate demanded lighter clothing and the Southern cavalier traditon led towards a form of dandyism among men.

Keep up the good work. This has been a great thread.

John Hill


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## rojo

Harris, perhaps I don't fully understand your point about color. I had always understood that the American trad style afforded a gentleman the option of subdued colors or bright colors, and that both were within the tradition. For example, at the annual meeting of my yacht club I wear almost exactly the same thing that I wore to dances in prep school 20 years ago: a navy blazer (three button sack), grey flannel trousers (plain front, all wool, cuffs), a white button-down oxford cloth shirt, either a repp or club tie, a brightly colored wool surcingle belt, and a pair of loafers in a dark brown or cordovan color. That's what almost all the other boys wore at school (the few exceptions were looked at askance), and that's what virtually everyone wears to the annual meeting (a wonderfully archaic all-male dinner, very fraternal, virtually unchanged for generations).

I don't quite understand about "vibrant grosgrain pastels" either. To me, "vibrant pastel" is an oxymoron. My understanding is that a pastel is a soft, pale shade, not a vibrant shade. Heather pink is a pastel. Hot pink is not.

The fall 2003 catalog from J. Press offers shetland sweaters in colors such as medium gray, charcoal gray, beige, light gray, brown mix, and navy. Would you consider these trad? My navy shetland sweater from Brooks Brothers has been a staple of my wardrobe for years, going into a third decade now.

I do appreciate your voice on the board. You've clearly given these matters some thought, and your opinions are valued.


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## rws

> quote:_Originally posted by rider_
> 
> I doubt, if you were to stop by a courthouse up North, you would find too many 16 year olds dressed in suit and tie.


This, sadly, is all too true: not only of sixteen-year-olds, but of forty-six-year-olds as well. One might attempt to explain away the slovenliness by noting that many who appear in court are poor and foreign; but many are not.

I think the explanation is more complex, and with application to our country as a whole. Let's prize the South as, now, our most traditional region, in which regressive modernism has made as yet the fewest inroads.


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## n/a

Don't get me wrong. I'm as grey-flanneled as the next guy. To be sure, I've spent years stocking my closet with dark worsteds and plenty of brawny, burly herringbones in various shades of brown and tan.

My point is I was taught that "Trad" is a particular branch of the larger family tree that is Ivy League look. Just as conservative in terms of cut, style, and fabric, but willing (if not eager) to venture into accessories--including shirts, belts, watchbands, ties, pocket squares, and socks--that are, to be as precise as one can be, colorful.

I learned the look from my father, who eschewed leather accessories in favor of grosgrain, and who was not afraid of bright pinks, greens, and yellows. I suppose that it's a subtle (and frustrating) thing. Maybe too many rules, huh? I understand.

I still know it when I see it. I was having lunch about a month ago on the Upper East Side. A gentleman walks through the door, the paragon of Trad. Navy chalkstripe suit, pink button down Supima, lime-and-navy stiped bowtie, white-navy grosgrain d-ring belt, and yellow socks with Alden tassels. My Dad used to call it the "Choatie" (Choate-Rosemary Hall) look. I still alternate between "Choatie" and "Trad." Other words will work as well. The point is that it's more colorful, fun-loving, and interesting than the plain, staid conservatism of what's been chronicled (amidst these forums) as "traditional dress."

Cheers,
Harris


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## rojo

Thanks for the note of sympathy. I suppose the point to remember is that the style we are discussing is not monolithic, just like "the South" is not monolithic. There will be variation according to region, and within the same region according to one's particular schools and one's family, not to mention individual preferences; yet it's all circumscribed by a fairly rigid set of precepts. And that's what makes it endlessly fascinating.


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## DukeGrad

Harris

A lot of what you have said is basically the way I have appreciated the Traditional "New England Ivy League Look."
Like yoursefl, it was the basic colors, tweeds, soft pastels.
I was able to live in the South, where I did find this look.
It was regional, probable sectional.
It centerred around academic institutions or the like.
I did find the traditional Ivy League look though, in the south.
The change, to more colorful socks, shirts and ties, I am not comfortable with the look, but it does look nice.
I like it simple, you cant not be succesful trying to mix a brown or a navy or a Khaki.
But lord, give me a color and I am lost!
LOL
Dont get me wrong, I love to wear a stripe tie on a striped shirt.
I got this look in Europe in the early 70's and in Ben Silver, I think more British that the traditional look.
Ralph Lauren is doing nice clothing, as you had described.
What I wanted to say, the look developed in New England, but I have found it in the south early on in my life.
Again, just sectional.
I think the look started at old schools where people could afford to dress, and it spread out.
Enjoying this talk.



Jimmy


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## n/a

It is endlessly fascinating. To some of us at least. 

I'm surprised the motif issue hasn't yet come up. 

A few years ago I attended a party in Leesburg, VA, where ladies and gentlemen wore corduroys and chinos embroidered with various game bird (and dog) motifs. You won't find as much of that sort of look in suburban NYC. Trust me. 

Up here, the New England "whale" motif is much more prominent. The lobster and the crab are also seen, but the whale seems to be the favored icon of New England and Mid-Atlantic residents. The Andover Shop and Murray's have been carrying whale-motifed items for decades. Brooks Brothers discovered it last year and featured it on ties and a belt.


Cheers,
Harris


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## n/a

An explanation as to why Trad would be affiliated with Choate Rosemary Hall as opposed to one of the other old New England boarding schools: CRH was one of the first to "relax" the dress code while still insisting that it entail a collared shirt (polo or oxford), dress trousers (chinos, poplins, cords, moleskin), and dress shoes. It lost the stiff formality yet retained a dressy casualness.

The result was that the sportcoat and tie went into the closet for special occasions, while students pushed the boundaries of the dress code by find the wildest possible pastels and motifs. CRH may not have been where New England's take on Trad was born, but it may very well be where it was confirmed.

Contrast this with the more conservative schools like St. Paul's and Deefield, which I believe maintain the coat-tie dress code to this day.

Cheers,
Harris


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## rojo

I was curious about current dress codes at Deerfield and St. Paul's, so I checked the web sites.

St. Paul's: "The dress code is casual and relaxed during the academic day. Boys usually wear: Tucked-in dress shirts (with or without a jacket), collared shirts, sweaters, and turtlenecks; neckties are optional; dress pants, trousers/slacks, khakis, corduroys, cargo pants, and shorts; sneakers, shoes and sandals."

Deerfield: "Deerfield students must attend classes, Academy events, occasions designated by the Headmaster and sit-down meals in 'class dress.' For boys, class dress means a dress shirt, tie, and sport coat, or a suit and tie. (Boys can wear a turtleneck instead of a shirt and tie.) Class dress for girls &lt;snip&gt;. Both boys and girls may wear 'walking shorts' when it is warm out, with class dress tops. At times when class dress isn't required, informal dress in good taste is the norm."

I had a fraternity brother from Deerfield who told me about the turtleneck option, so that hasn't changed in the last 18 years.


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## n/a

So, I suppose it's not entirely accurate to stick with the phrase "Choatie." Maybe "Trad" is the old, tried-and-true "stand-by." Whatever word one chooses to use, one knows the look when one sees it. A friend of mine refers to it as "Carnegie Hill," for the obvious reason that one sees a lot of it in that part of the city. 
Cheers,
Harris


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## Thom

The earlier mention of UVA and its intellectual superiority to its southern brethen, made me wonder if the decline of American Trad on the campus scene has anything to do with higher academic standards. We must remember that at the height of the 'ivy league' look on the ivy league campuses, it was a period of racist and elitist admission standards. No matter how deserving you were, there were restrictive caps, if they let you in at all, on certain minorities. I wonder if the changes in dress coincided with the rise of the idea of meritocracy on our universities. It wasn't about 'silly socialist egilatarinism'. Instead, the ivy league is open to the best and brighest. If you're smart enough, you won't be denied entry. What happens is that you've no longer restricted Harvards to the same insular group of 'gentlemen' who get in because their parents were rich enough to send them to prep school. 

As for the whole southern college experience, it seems they've held on longer to this whole american trad than others. But, isn't it true that they also held on longer to their segragationist admission policies than other colleges. In the 60s, you saw a far greater reluctance in the south to integrate with the firebombs and hosing down people. I'm sure this attitude was reflected throughout society, and in the colleges as well. 

And, to me, the whole frat thing is one of those old white boys club. All the problems the southern schools had, I'm sure showed up in frats with their restrictions on who gets in. I wouldn't be surprised that they've held on to a american trad look.


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## n/a

Good points.

My hunch--and this is just a hunch--is that there are parts of the South, traditional as it is, where the authentically Trad look would be dimissed as a tad on the "whimpy" and/or "sissy" side. Maybe it's all the pastels.

I can't imagine that the look would be well received outside the enclaves where it's become something of a norm. It's perfectly acceptable to wear a hot pink shetland sweater with yellow cords and a lime green watchband on the Vineyard. But probably not Hilton Head. One sees plenty of Nantucket Red and other shades of salmon and coral in Boston and Cambridge, but I doubt it's "taken hold" in, say, Charlotte or Atlanta. Maybe it's the Yankee in me, but I'm still persuaded that Trad is a predominantly New England/Mid-Atlantic phenomenon.

Harris


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## rojo

Thom, you make some good arguments and have caused me to rethink some of my assumptions. I agree that the broadening of admissions was one factor in changing campus wear. But to take Harvard as an example, the broadening of admissions actually took place during the 1950s, not the 1960s. Between 1952 and 1960, public high school graduates came to outnumber private school graduates at Harvard, the proportion of students coming from New England dropped by a third, and the average SAT scores for Harvard students rose by nearly 100 points for both the math and verbal tests. By 1960, which was still during the height of the Ivy League look, Harvard had already changed from a school largely attended by a regional socioeconomic elite to a school that drew the best and brightest from all over the country. During the next few years, the Ivy League style was still ubiquitous on American campuses. College shops everywhere carried the look. Then things changed all over the U.S. Whether a person attended Harvard, Radcliffe, or the University of Washington, if that person arrived on campus in 1963 and graduated in 1967, chances are they took sartorial cues from President and Mrs. Kennedy as a newly arriving freshman but from Sonny and Cher as a graduating senior. The Establishment fell into general disrepute among the first generation born after World War II; these people arrived on campus in numbers in 1964.

A whole thread could be devoted to discussing the clothes of John F. Kennedy, educated as he was at Choate and Harvard. For instance, why did he seem always to fasten the lower button on his two-button suit jackets?


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> A whole thread could be devoted to discussing the clothes of John F. Kennedy, educated as he was at Choate and Harvard. For instance, why did he seem always to fasten the lower button on his two-button suit jackets?


The same reason he bonked anything that moved... because he could. I really think JFK was a law unto himself, at least sartorially...


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## n/a

I had forgotten that JFK was a Choatie. So much makes sense now.

Have any of you seen some photos of the young JFK at CRH and Harvard? 

One of my favorites of him is on the golf course: if memory serves, he's wearing a heather blue shetland, grey flannels, light yellow socks, and penny loafers. (My guess is the old Alden Leisure Handsewn!). And Ray-Ban Wayfarers, of course.

A close inspection of many of his suits reveal that he favored the undarted two-button. Very narrow lapels; mostly center vents. Very Andover Shop. While many a rumor persists that JFK wore Saville Row suits almost exclusively, there are plenty of rumors to counter that: the old 60s-era Andover Shop crowd can remember that the Andover Shop tailored garments for both him and Bobby.

Harris


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## Horace

Harris -- wonderful thread you've created. When I have time, I'd like to respond to several messages. May take a day or two to get sorted out on other obligations.

In the meantime, are you sure that JFK's 2 button, Andover model (and it surely looks to be classic Andover, doesn't it?), didn't have slight darting.?



> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I had forgotten that JFK was a Choatie. So much makes sense now.
> 
> Have any of you seen some photos of the young JFK at CRH and Harvard?
> 
> One of my favorites of him is on the golf course: if memory serves, he's wearing a heather blue shetland, grey flannels, light yellow socks, and penny loafers. (My guess is the old Alden Leisure Handsewn!). And Ray-Ban Wayfarers, of course.
> 
> A close inspection of many of his suits reveal that he favored the undarted two-button. Very narrow lapels; mostly center vents. Very Andover Shop. While many a rumor persists that JFK wore Saville Row suits almost exclusively, there are plenty of rumors to counter that: the old 60s-era Andover Shop crowd can remember that the Andover Shop tailored garments for both him and Bobby.
> 
> Harris


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## DukeGrad

RJman

I love it, did you study your English in the Army?
(Bonked)
LOL
Great one
Now, I am confused, did he(JFK) go to Choate or was it the Gunnery?
One of them went to the Gunnery.
Everything is not Andover/Exeter/Choate/St Pauls.
There are prolific schools, by the thousands that are a part of this ivy look.
Trinity Pawling/Deerfield/Hotchkiss/Groton, yea, it was Groton JFK went to, help me on this.
Dont forget our young ladies, Emma Willard Jane Fonda), my favorite and the love of all soldiers.
Dana Hall etc etc.
They all contributed to this look.


Jimmy


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## AlanC

JFK at Choate, 1935:


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## Thom

Its from Choatie that he got the line " Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." In the original form, Choatie's headmaster told JFK's class " Ask not what Choatie can do for you, ask what you can do for Choatie."


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## DukeGrad

Thanks Alan C and Thom for clearing that up for me.
I did not know that it was Choate.
He was an impressive man.
Thanks again



Jimmy


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## Thom

The really weird thing about prep schools is consdering how much emphasis they place on athletics, their students are really, really terrible in sports. I don't know, but I've seen them play and they treat it like a big joke.


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## RSS

When I was in prep school -- which was a while back -- I played sports for fun and enjoyment. Not only did I like making the effort with my teammates ... typically I new a third or more of our opposing team. We all had a good time. And while it wasn't the matter of "life and death" sports so often seems to be in some realms ... neither was it a joke. It's just that winning wasn't everything.

RSS
Berkeley


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## tom22

JFK I was from Choate. JFK II is from SD\t Pauls. once upon a time this was a definitive look. Though it was mostly defined by Brook's Boys Shop.


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> The really weird thing about prep schools is consdering how much emphasis they place on athletics, their students are really, really terrible in sports. I don't know, but I've seen them play and they treat it like a big joke.


Well, think of it this way: Sport, esp. team sports, should emphasize group participation as well as athleticism. They should build character and the values of team work, loyality, obligation to your fellows. If sport is taught right, winning is a lesser concern.

What you see as the game being "treat[ed]...like a big joke" is part of a larger tradition of a gentlemanly (or those aspiring to be or training to be) ethos.


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Comolli_
> 
> Horace and Good Friends:
> Mr. Pollock and I have often discussed in these pages the decline of the tradition in America. In the past the tradition was fostered by all men's schools with dress codes. Young men were taught how to dress, to take pride in one's appearance, and what it was to be a proper gentleman. This tradition has been destroyed for little good reason that I know of, other than silly socialist egalitarianism.
> Horace, I am in complete and utter agreement with you. But, I noticed you have some observations about this matter which Mr. Pollock and I would surely like to hear. Please give us the opportunity to reflect on your thoughts about the way students now dress and the impact on us of same.
> 
> John M. Comolli


Mssrs. Comolli, Pollock and Gentlemen:

I don't know that I can add much more to it than you have. Others will dismiss your comment on "silly socialist egalitarianism" but not I. Indeed, though I have certain leanings toward socialist programs, and even flatter myself, in my more vain moments, that I am a committed member of the left, I must say that when it comes to education and character building, I remain traditional.

Let us not forget that the idea of education as handed down to us from antiquity was synomous with "character". The Greek word is paideia (and there is a wonderful book on this subject by the great Harvard prof. Jaegar). Although it may be fashionably to lay at the door our current cascade of imbecility that is education and dress in this country the Sixties, I believe that this charge is just. But I won't push point here.

For both education and dress serve to build character, to encourage proper deportment and self-respect. In the name not only of "silly socialist egalitarianism" but also the much abused term "individualism" may we find fault with current standards.

There is the silly and childish notion that the student is "freed" from the bounds of some rigid, doctrinnaire hierarchy by allowing him to dress as he pleases. Such is not the case. We have seen as much in the previous posts concerning dress at athletics, in class, and so forth.

What does dressing for school mean then? What are the benefits?

Wearing a coat and tie builds character, promotes unity, self-respect, and most important, reminds the student that he is part of an endeavour that is serious and much larger than himself.

(Now I made the previous distinction between New England and the South in the arts, because on finds a thinker like Emerson and his "individualism" which indeed has a tenable hold on the imagination -- this Emersonianism has been taken to an extreme). I suggested, though to flesh out my idea would be too length here, that the South sought it's influences elsewhere, in community, in tradition that stretched back further than itself, that had little use for declaring itself, as my Boston brethern did, a world onto itself.

Return to clothing. It should be the goal of every school principal to create pride within the student. Part of this (perhaps some would charge it a superficial part, but I don't think so), is to remind the student that his endeavour is a serious one.

That whether it be Hotchkiss or PS 158, that there are those who have come before him and that there are those who will follow him. A coat and tie (preferably of the natural-shouldered look, of course!), remind the wear that his station is a dignified one. There is a big difference between sending a child to school in coat and tie, and sending him to school in baggy jeans and basketball t-shirt 5 sizes to large. It has an effect, whether the student knows it or not, on the way he conducts himself.

I say, hail to the professor mentioned previously who required students to attend class in a tie.

Now, I can already anticipate those who would object. Do let me answer just one of those objections here. There are those who will say that the wearing of proper dress to school squashes the expression of individualism. To that I say, greater indidivudalism (at least in sartorial matters) may be expressed if the student has a few rules, the way a poet may express greater strength and skill if he is forced to write poems within form, rather than vers libre. And anyway, isn't the greatest form of individualism to be found not in clothing, but in the lecture hall, the playing field, the school clubs, etc.

We no longer charge students with the importance of their scholastic endeavours. While the decline in the dress may not be a determining factor, it is surely an indicator.

I propose rigid dress standards not only for private but for public schools.

Finally, let me suggest on other reason while the South may continue the Amer/Trad tradition, and let me suggest that the reason may be one of the South's most enduring intellectual legacies.

That is, a skeptical attitude toward progress, most eloquently put in recent memory by the essays in _I'll take my Stand_ and in Faulkner. These writers knew that human nature endured even in the face of so-called social and technological change.

While they did not begrudge or even want to prohibit social justice or political freedom, they were not under the disillusion, as NOrthern intellectuals were, that human nature -- it's wants and desires and hopes and asperations -- were things that constantly "improved". Theres was a much more profound (and I think one could argue reaslistic) view of life.

And so, I think that all young people long for some sort of direction, some sort of guidance. Young people want to be conducted through life, instructed and taught that there are rules and limits and a sense of history that exceeds there own existence.

I myself was a rebel in school. But I had rules against which to rebel.

Well, this has been a very round-about way of discussing dress. Had I wished to make my claims a little more forcefully and persuasviely, I could've cut the fat from this brief essay, but I do hope that you gentleman will indulge me.

H.


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> As a Yankee (and NYC suburbanite) who nonetheless appreciates what has been said about the South's ongoing appreciation of sartorial etiquette, I do feel compelled to make an observation.
> 
> That observation is that while the South may be traditional and "coat-and-tied" all the way (my travels throughout the South confirm this), I'm not sure there's an abiding appreciation for what I understand as the authentically Trad look. In fact--and please don't use this as an occasion for stone-throwing--I'm fairly confident that most well-dressed Southerners I know have not a clue as to the difference between (mere) "traditional dress" and the unique look that is Trad.
> 
> Yes, Southerners may "dress up" more frequently, but I've seen many a "well dressed Southerner" wearing darted sportcoats, pleated trousers, and wide ties. While the fabric may have been sufficiently appropriate (tweed, seersucker, moleskin), the cut was not at all Trad. Someone mentioned that Aldens could be seen on the feet of W&L students. I don't doubt that, but in my experience there are only a couple of shoes in the whole Alden inventory that fit nicely under the category of American Trad...and Brooks has carried those two styles longer than anyone. Alden extended the scope of their inventory, no doubt in response to those who refused to wear nothing more than tassels and high-vamped penny's in color 8 shell cordovan.
> 
> I'm sure I'll received some criticism for this observation, but I think it should be noted that Trad, at least as I understand it, is quite narrow in scope--to the point of frustrating those unschooled in the look. Maybe this will serve to illustrate my point: A shetland sweater in heather pink is Trad; a cashmere sweater in the same shade of pink is not, nor is a shetland is brown or charcoal. A wide-waled cord in kelly, pink, or a maize yellow is Trad, but not if it's pleated. And a plain front cord in brown is, well, "just another cord." If/when one is forced to wear a staid ensemble consisting of charcoal, tan, navy, or brown, then the way of Trad is to spruce it up with vibrant grosgrain pastels (no dark leather, thanks very much). At least that's the way I've learned, but then I'm a hopelessly committed student to the New England/Mid-Atlantic Trad I learned long ago.
> 
> Trad is about VERY traditionally cut/styled clothing in VERY traditional fabrics...yet in bold, vibrant colors. If/when Trad is reduced to (mere) "traditional dress," anything can be said to fit under the category, including a lot of truly boring stuff.
> 
> For the record, I've seen the authentically Trad look (at its best) only on the Upper East Side, suburban NYC, and New England vacation spots. In fact, I'm tempted to think of the look as unique to the Mid-Atlantic and New England. Southerners may "dress up," but pleated Duckheads, a darted Corbin blazer, and a striped bowtie in a matte color do not qualify as Trad.
> 
> A longtime New York family (the Prenners) brought New England Trad to the South, for which many Southerners are thankful.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Harris


Harris, I bow to no one in my admiration for your perputation here of all things Trad. However, as I see it, these vibrant colors as your so skillfully observe, are really employed on occasion as ironic gestures, though perhaps not so much in an area such as Cape Cod.

I do think that I would want to broaden the canon or measure of Amer/Trad a bit. You mention brown cords. Let's not forget that part of Amer/Trad comes from the English sporting tradition of hunting and fishing and whatnot.

While I agree with you that pleats may not be Trad. on cords, I diverge from your rigid definition when it comes to suits. Let's also remember that various areas (and their stores, naturally) may claim certain "outgrowths" or regional variations.

But surely, even if we quibble, there are abiding sentiments or rules that most of us could agree on that define trad. What these sentiments are have been pointed out here and there but never in systematic fashion.

H.

P.S. I could be taking this all-too-seriously, for this thread, and askandy.com has sucked me in. However, perhaps one element of Trad is the tongue-in-cheek approach that one takes to matters sartorial. There does seem to me, something antithetical about discussing Trad, when one is Trad, as if these things most remain unspoken. However, I've now decided that we must continue and educate on matters Trad. My wife thinks my interest in these discussion to be slightly odd, but I find them quite illuminating, not to mention fun.


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I'm as grey-flanneled as the next guy. To be sure, I've spent years stocking my closet with dark worsteds and plenty of brawny, burly herringbones in various shades of brown and tan.
> 
> My point is I was taught that "Trad" is a particular branch of the larger family tree that is Ivy League look. Just as conservative in terms of cut, style, and fabric, but willing (if not eager) to venture into accessories--including shirts, belts, watchbands, ties, pocket squares, and socks--that are, to be as precise as one can be, colorful.
> 
> I learned the look from my father, who eschewed leather accessories in favor of grosgrain, and who was not afraid of bright pinks, greens, and yellows. I suppose that it's a subtle (and frustrating) thing. Maybe too many rules, huh? I understand.
> 
> I still know it when I see it. I was having lunch about a month ago on the Upper East Side. A gentleman walks through the door, the paragon of Trad. Navy chalkstripe suit, pink button down Supima, lime-and-navy stiped bowtie, white-navy grosgrain d-ring belt, and yellow socks with Alden tassels. My Dad used to call it the "Choatie" (Choate-Rosemary Hall) look. I still alternate between "Choatie" and "Trad." Other words will work as well. The point is that it's more colorful, fun-loving, and interesting than the plain, staid conservatism of what's been chronicled (amidst these forums) as "traditional dress."
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


I appreciated your description of the Choatie. Indeed, I may steal part of that look verbatim and wear a white/blue grosgrain belt with my blue chalk-stripe 2 piece suit. However I would argue that there are three elements this Choatie employs that are Trad-Camp: bow-tie, belt, and yellow socks. Perhaps the loafers are insignificant in the "camp" arena. One or two of those items is okay; however, employing all four shows a certain self-awareness that I think is decidedly over-the-top and almost too much to be properly considered Trad. Especially on the Upper East Side. Though I know _exactly_ what you mean by Trad in that part of town, as I've seen it myself countless times.

Your "Trad Pick of the Week" has got me to thinking. And so I propose the following.

We should create some sort of list of Trad shops remaining throughout the US -- both store-fronts and on-line for those who are not within reach of the actual shops. I've scrawled out a list from what I know and there was a College Shops thread on styleforum too.

I also, because of this board, have begun to take a look at EBay. It takes a bit too much time, I think, but just for fun, I started punching in old shops that've closed into the search fields, and sometimes I've come up with some good trad-wear. Were we to make a list, it would make those who are searching for authentic trad, easier to find it. Anyone can punch in Brooks, and we all know the quality isn't what it used to be, but further, as Brooks is such a household name, those items often get bid beyond their value I think. But if the person who wants Trad on the chap punches in say "Crimson Shop" or what-not, he may find something that the mass of Ebay users won't bid on because it isn't a "brand". I did this last week with Chipp and found a few nice items, though I didn't bid on them. They went unsold. Anyway, just a thought.


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## DukeGrad

Horace

Very nice post.
I wanted to comment on something. You are not taking things seriously. This is what I enjoy about the forums.
It allows us to get involved, in our own little arena.
There are things we want to share with others, myself included.
I find the time to share and promote the world of a soldier.
Even though I am retired, I am a soldier.
I have taken upon myself to spread the word of History!
We are losing our knowledge of History!
You made the comment yourself, I was a rebel, the 60's. time frame.
We can review that time frame now, we have retrospective research and data now.
We, have a different generation out there, we will have knowledge about this era 30 years from now.
I, being an old soldier promote the uniform and unity.
Edgar Vincents massive book " Love and Fame" Vice Admiral Nelsons life.
A wonderful book I recommend.
Admiral Nelson had his own requests of his men, his officers, their jobs, how they were to do their jobs and look.
Vincents book is a long and very dry account of Admiral Nelsons life. I got thru all chapters, anxious to end this miserable book.
The final chapter, shows Nelsons last battle, how it began and how it flowed through each individual section, and so beautifully.
Admiral Nelson gave us today, the Chain of Command, Communication and Unified Command! He was a brilliant leader.
His rules were strict, yet they help developed each section under him.
He was a dapper dresser and asked this of his men! Ties and Blazer!
I can only comment on your thoughts regarding dress, that is why I discussed Nelsons life. He had vision, a common goal and many other things that could accomplish the mission.
Uniformity is vital! Yes, I agree with you. But it is sectional, our Armies, certain school sports.
Coach K requires a Navy Blazer and khaki slacks for his team.
It appears to me that this is happening, in a big way today, still.
I agree about secondary schools, too much expression.
But, is a tie and jacket going to change anything, or make it worse?
Your advice about keying people and students on Education being their goal and focus.
I believe this is happening anyway today. Look at where our children are academically today as compared to 30 years ago?
I am very curious, you mentioned that you were a rebel?
What changed you and your thoughts?
Personnaly, I concur with you, too much expression sometimes.
I really enjoy these talks, very interesting, now need to go to gym!
Have a nice day gentlemen!

Jimmy


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## n/a

Horace,

Your points are well-made and well-taken. I especially appreciated your observation that individual expression remains fully intact even when there are a few rules--especially (!) when there a few rules.

"Trad Camp." I like it. And I see what you mean. 

The few who remain committed to Trad see themselves (accurately, I think) as unique--as the last remaining stewards of a look that strives to counteract the pleated, spread-collared, french-cuffed, alligator accessorized world of Euro-looking GQ readers. So, I think there's an element of friendly yet confrontational repartee to the look.

Case in point: when I travel, I see plenty of the kiltie-tasseled, leather/western-belted types--complete with shiny, ****** shirts in nutty shades of violet and olive and three pleats on each side of the (inevitably matte-shaded) trouser zipper. This is very likely the predominant look--complete with cell phone--among the mass of businessmen; so, Trad becomes a kind of language: a way of telling others you simply refuse to blend in with the Mens' Warehouse/International Male/GQ look. 

Like so many things, it's defined by what it's not. Do you agree?

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Comolli

Horace:

I lie prostrate at the feet of the Guru on the Mountaintop.

John M. Comolli


----------



## Markus

*It seems you may be overlooking the importance of context in all this*

While the historic connection between the elite prep schools and the American/Traditional style of clothing is clear, there are two related themes which seem to be emerging here which I am not so sure are valid.

The first related theme is the connection between high-minded values and traditional dress. I am not so sure that history will bear out the notion that those who attended the elite prep schools during the last century when the Trad/Ivy look evolved manifested a higher standard of character than those who did not. It might be argued that, all things considered, many of those who were born into an environment of advantage through family wealth, social connection and the opportunity for superb education in fact have manifested a higher degree of selfishness and lack of imagination than many who did not have such advantages. I recognize that my comment here has many flaws and exceptions but many of the posts in this thread have been extremely general in nature, so I beg your indulgence.

The second point I want to make is that the entire issue of dress and it's relationship to character and achievement must be looked at within context. There are many parts of the country where what we are calling traditional dress are not present at all yet young people of character, wearing completely casual, sloppy attire, manifest high levels of intellectual ability, accomplishment and moral values. The experience of my son and many of his close friends who graduated from a tiny high school on San Juan Island, Washington, are a case in point. In this community, birkenstocks, jeans, hiking gear and sloppy clothing are the norm. In fact, this preference for sloppiness and the extremely casual style seems to have as many rules about what is and is not acceptable as any other clothing system and my nephews and their friends who still live there seem to have mastered it completely. Yet such deviation from the Am/Trad style has not precluded these kids from heading off to schools like Bowden, Dartmouth, Reed and Swarthmore. It seems to me that the intellectual and moral environment of the family is a key element of this whole mix here and must be weighed accordingly.

I have nephews who graduated from high school in the '90s with their jeans hanging down on their hips in the then current hip-hop style who similarly have gone on to significant educational achievement including stints at Reed and Stanford.

Perhaps I could be clearer about the points I'm trying to make here, so I'll take another run at it before signing off. My first point is that any analysis of the impact of style, appearance and clothing on human development must be done within the context of the family and community within which the individual is growing. In many of these families and communities, Am/Trad style is completely irrelevant yet extremely high levels of character, ability and achievement are present. My second point is that the historic relationship between the Am/Trad style and the elites of this country doesn't necessarily provide a very complimentary case study for the development of character or high-minded, altruistic values.

Markus


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## Comolli

My Good Friends:

Markus:

Your note is certainly not in keeping with the purpose for the founding of the University of Virginia. Mr. Jefferson viewed a college education as a means for building characher, leadership ability and a sense of service to the community and the nation. That was the end of education as Horace so ably stated. You've turned the thing on its head.

But it is true that having a coat and tie dress tradition at a school or university is not the only way to foster these ideals. It's just that it was at the mainly eastern schools and in the South that the American Tradition in dress was fostered, cultivated, with these ideals in mind. That was his point, and I think Horace was dead on the money.



John M. Comolli


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## Thom

Its one thing to admire a certain look. But, its another thing to claim it is superior due to its associations with a certain socioeconomic elite, the Northeastern WASPs.

I'll never understand why the WASP is so admired, other than the fact that they held power for so long and the powerless associated the characteristics of those in power with power itself. Horace, were you refering to the greek word, pietas. If we're going to bring up the Greeks, we need to remember that the Greeks valued arete, excellence, above all others. The Greeks wanted to excell in whatever they did, to be the best. To me, the WASPs never embraced this concept. Instead, their ideal was not to try too hard or put too much effort, and to treat everything like a joke. That what the whole pastel preppy looks like to me- not too serious with some irony thrown in for good measure. The term 'gentlemen C' just illustrates the total lack of effort they put forth. Its not considered gentlemanly to try too hard. Even though Bush dresses up in cowboy boots, he seems like the uber preppy with his sneer on his lips and his silly names for everybody. In high school, we all wanted to play football. In prep school, Bush wanted to be head cheerleader.

Although, if I knew my life was set, I might not try too hard either. No matter the grades (look at Bush), they knew they'd get into a Ivy league school and then get a middle management posiion. Of course, they dressed up in prep school. They were being trained, what not to wear, etc.. for when they would be handed their positions, regardless of their talent or ability.

Let's remember, when our ancestors fought the British for independence, they were not dressed like 'gentlemen' soldiers. Even though the British mocked their attire, this did not lessen that they were 'part of an an endeavor that is larger and much more larger than himself.'


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## Markus

Mr. Comolli, you said: 

"Your note is certainly not in keeping with the purpose for the founding of the University of Virginia. Mr. Jefferson viewed a college education as a means for building characher, leadership ability and a sense of service to the community and the nation. That was the end of education as Horace so ably stated. You've turned the thing on its head."

Sorry, I don't follow the connection between my post and your comment above. Certainly building character, leadership, ability and a sense of service to the community are the purpose of all schools, aren't they? I don't see how I turned the thing on its head.

You also sai: "But it is true that having a coat and tie dress tradition at a school or university is not the only way to foster these ideals. It's just that it was at the mainly eastern schools and in the South that the American Tradition in dress was fostered, cultivated, with these ideals in mind. That was his point, and I think Horace was dead on the money."

Many posts on this thread have decried the fact that much of our society has gradually turned away from the Am/Trad look. Some of these posts have extended this change in style to a general lapse in the development of character. One of the purposes of my post was to assert that, in my experience, high levels of character can be developed in families and communities for whom the whole notion of Am/Trad style (or even polished shoes, for that matter) are completely irrelevant.

Is this clearer?

Markus


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## Comolli

Good Friends:

I feel as though I'm back in law school engaged in a Socratic dialogue. So that:
Markus, my good and excellent friend, your are certainly right in saying high levels of character may be developed in families, neighborhoods and communities, without regard to the American Tradition in dress. No doubt.
But, you see, the learned Horace's point went to the question of the ends of education as actually taught in the preparatory schools and universities in the Ivy League and the South and how the dress code fostered or cultivated those ends and ideals. Something has to happen to the character of the young man when he is in the school environment. That something has something to do with what he wears. Now certainly coming from a background you describe is essential to building character, but it is the institutional influence being described by Horace, our good and learned friend.
My heartfelt apologies for any misunderstanding. You are, of course, absolutely correct in the observation put forward.





John M. Comolli


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## dutch

does anybody know where i can find the window mannequins shown when you click on this link??

i believe they are from the USA, but on the internet i cannot find them.

I hope somebody can help me

Thanks,
A fashionstore owner from Holland


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## boredtodeath

What all of you gentlemen have failed to mention is that the true essence of the preppy/traditional New England way of dressing is not to go overboard, not to spend oodles of money on the most expensive, perfectly cut suits. I am a woman (gasp!) who graduated from eight years at the Winsor School in Boston. I dated boys from Fessenden, Andover, Exeter, Lawrenceville, Belmont Hill, Roxbury Latin, and a few other boys' prep schools. The true mark of the preppy boy, at least in my day--the 1960s--was not to care much about what he wore. Weejun loafers worn barefoot, the soles so far gone that athletic tape had to be applied liberally around the toe of the shoe to keep the sole from falling off, a frayed-collar BB shirt, rep ties carelessly knotted and often stained, dirty chinos with nondescript belts, navy blue blazers so old (and often outgrown) that the wool was shiny were the marks of prep school boys in the 1960s. Prep school boys had to be dragged to the store to shop for clothes. 

At Winsor, we girls carried hideous green bookbags that over time caused one shoulder to rise permanently (we had posture pictures in the eleventh grade to prove it), wore the same pair of creased Weejuns until they literally fell apart, kneesocks, wool pleated Tartan skirts, Skyr cotton turtlenecks, and Shetland cardigans (worn backwards with the buttons up the back!), often with moth holes, in the winter, headbands, and demure white dresses at Convocation. The girls who were most envied had inherited and wore with pride their grandmothers' ratty mink coats from the 1920s, with tattered linings and missing chunks of fur. Summers were spent by both sexes in torn bluejeans or worn-out chino pants cut off above the knee, dirty Treetorn canvas sneakers, and the same worn-out Oxford cloth button down shirts with the sleeves rolled above the elbow (a prep's only concession to the heat). Occasionally, one would see the up-turned collar of a LaCoste peeking out from under the Oxford cloth. This LaCoste was worn instead of an undershirt to soak up the sweat caused by the preppy's summer exertions.

True preppies are born that way; they are not "made." They are happy to wear their parents' and grandparents' cast-offs so they won't be forced to shop for new clothes. As long as their clothes are serviceable enough to wear to play tennis, sail, play rugby, play touch football, wear to an occasional jaunt to the MFA (the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston) or to the Boston Pops, preppies are happy. 

The whole point about preps is that they care so little about what they wear that they simply don't care about dress codes. Dress codes were easy to follow when one could fling on a dirty button down shirt, an old tie that once belonged to ones father, an ancient, baggy blazer with sagging pockets that one had outgrown three years previously, and a battered pair of loafers, and all the masters would look pleased.

The new preppy look is studied, the cut of the jackets, coats, and blazers is nipped in and "sharp," the bands of colors on Fair Isle sweaters are garish, and the women's shoes still have pointed toes. J Crew is trying their best, but their designers were obviously born after 1975, didn't attend Andover, and didn't live in Weston, Mass. Enough said. Lighten up.


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## RJman

> quote:_Originally posted by boredtodeath_
> 
> What all of you gentlemen have failed to mention is that the true essence of the preppy/traditional New England way of dressing is not to go overboard, not to spend oodles of money on the most expensive, perfectly cut suits.
> True preppies are born that way; they are not "made." They are happy to wear their parents' and grandparents' cast-offs so they won't be forced to shop for new clothes. As long as their clothes are serviceable enough to wear to play tennis, sail, play rugby, play touch football, wear to an occasional jaunt to the MFA (the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston) or to the Boston Pops, preppies are happy.
> 
> The whole point about preps is that they care so little about what they wear that they simply don't care about dress codes. Dress codes were easy to follow when one could fling on a dirty button down shirt, an old tie that once belonged to ones father, an ancient, baggy blazer with sagging pockets that one had outgrown three years previously, and a battered pair of loafers, and all the masters would look pleased.
> Enough said. Lighten up.


Bravo. You're going to get a lot of pretty thick cod-sociological responses but you've summed it up terrifically well. It's an odd hermetic thing and anyone who tries automatically can't do it.


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## Markus

Dear Bored,

Nice post and (IMHO) your counsel for us to lighten up is on target.

However, please be patient with us. For the issue for many of us posting passionately on this thread has nothing to do with history but everything to do with who we assert we are (through the clothes we choose to wear) in the here and now.

And given the dreadful choices one is faced with in the horrid "shopping malls", how our choices about where we shop and what we choose to wear distinguish us from the rabble.

I *obviously* am allowing myself to enjoy this thread entirely too much. Why else do I find myself checking in on this board every hour? I read the various posts on this thread and feel like I've found some kindred spirits, for whom modern "styles" and cuts of clothes are distasteful. 

With all the posts on this thread mentioning places like the Andover Shop and Ben Silver and J. Press and BB, it might seem a little obscure to realize that once upon a time, Am/Trad clothing was widely available, of high quality, and at price levels matching many budgets. Alas, such is no longer the case. Which helps explain why those of us who still care about such things find ourselves reading and posting on this and similar threads on this board. And I guess that why I find myself returning so frequently.

Markus


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## rws

> quote:_Originally posted by boredtodeath_
> 
> What all of you gentlemen have failed to mention is that the true essence of the preppy/traditional New England way of dressing is not to go overboard, not to spend oodles of money on the most expensive, perfectly cut suits. . . .
> 
> True preppies are born that way; they are not "made." They are happy to wear their parents' and grandparents' cast-offs . . . .
> 
> The whole point about preps is that they care so little about what they wear that they simply don't care about dress codes. . . .


As a thirteenth-generation Yankee, I largely agree. As a man who enjoys dressing well (and who for his work, must), though, I emphasize the lack of concern about "dress codes": I can't categorize my wardrobe as "trad" or "Savile Row" or anything else, but it pleases me.


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## rojo

You're right, boredtodeath, but I think one also needs to acknowledge that teenage clothing is in its own category. My aunt, who graduated from an all-girls prep school in the late 1940s, wore blue sweaters as part of the school uniform. She told me that an obviously worn and frayed blue sweater was a status symbol because it meant that you had started at the school in one of the younger grades or (even better) that you were wearing a hand-me-down from an older sister or cousin who had already graduated. Yet the point of her story was to warn me that my frayed shirts and scuffed loafers with holes in the bottom would need replacing when I left college and went looking for a job. I still wear a few items that belonged to my father and grandfather (a belt, some sweaters, a dinner jacket, a Lacoste shirt), but most of what I had from them finally disintegrated. At some point I had to go shopping for new clothes. And I'll wear THOSE clothes until THEY disintegrate.


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## rws

> quote:_Originally posted by dutch_
> 
> does anybody know where i can find the window mannequins shown when you click on this link??
> 
> i believe they are from the USA, but on the internet i cannot find them.
> 
> I hope somebody can help me
> 
> Thanks,
> A fashionstore owner from Holland


You might try 'phoning the stores themselves, as I doubt the mannequins are American-made. Telephone numbers are listed here: .


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## Dan the Man

Wow, I don't check the forum for a few days, and I missed all this facinating exchange. I will address three people. 

John Hill, I have a few friends who would consider your statement that Florida is not part of the South to be fighting words, While South Florida has clearly morphed due to immigration from Cuba and the North, Northern Florida and the Panhandle remain very southern. Just check the election results. The Panhandle is as red as the redest state. But until fairly recently, even south Florida was as southern as the Mississippi Delta. Watch the movie Porky's for example which took place in the Everglades. (I do not endorse the moral content of Porkies, but it will make my point.)

Horace, are you sure you are a man of the left? That post of yours seemed like it could have come straight from the pages of Chronicles Magazine. I would think the embrace of tradition over the forces of Progress would be the essence of the Right.

Thom, you clearly have an agenda of some sort. I think you enjoy needling people.


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## n/a

Boredtodeath, you inhaled a breath of fresh air into what can become a rather musty conversation among self-confessed dinosaurs. Nicely phrased.

I suppose it's safe to say that I'm still recovering from the education I received from my father, who simply delighted in the New England take on Trad. Surely there's a 12-step program for us somewhere. My hunch is it's somewhere on Nantucket. I'll look for it in the spring.

As to the question of whether or not Trad (as I understand it) is related to character, I think not. But it has everything to do with attitude: optimism tweaked by irony; a joviality touched by a wee bit of flippancy. If it's a look, it's a smirk. Not George W. Bush's so much, though it's close. Think Winston Churchill. 

I've expressed the point ad infinitum and others have crystallized my thoughts more eloquently than I have myself, so at the risk of "beating a dead horse," I'll once again refer you to my father's closet, filled with yellow oxfords, pink and navy churchill dots, lime green cords, bright orange shetland's, and Alden mocs. For what it's worth, the men in my family never wore Weejuns.

Maybe it's the case that we each have a unique understanding of Trad, probably based on upbringing and neighborhood. When I asked my older brother what it meant, he responded that "it's what Moynihan wears." I didn't know what he meant until later, when I saw photos of the late Senator from New York on the floor and on the campaign trail. Color. There has to be color! Otherwise, it's just the old narrow shouldered, collared, and tied Ivy League look.

I wonder if Boredtodeath's words "prep" and "preppy" capture the essence of Trad as I'm trying to convey it. Perhaps. Perhaps not.

If you have a moment, do take a glance at this page, particularly the photos of the VERY Trad items.


Color!
Harris


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## n/a

Here's a piece that George Will, who occasionally flirts with Trad, about the old Trad Moynihan. The photo of the gentleman senator is equally revealing: candy-striped button down oxford, a churchill-dotted too-tie bow, and what looks to be a natural-shouldered tan poplin. Perfectly accecorized with no. 2 pencil and tortoise shell horn-rims.



Cheers,
Harris


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## jpeirpont

I don't remember reading about cords in this thread. I was wondering how they fit into a Amer/trad warebrobe.


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## Thom

Dan the Man,

I'm a reasonable man, not senile like Zell Miller, so I won't be demanding a duel over such spurilous accusations. Where is this accusation coming from? My only agenda is to learn about clothing, especially from people like maton.

If you're refering to my earlier comment about the confederate battle flag, I would also have spoken up if somebody had a pictograph similar to the swatiska. If somebody writes something that I feel is wrong, morally or factually, I'll speak up. This weekend I went to the GAP, and didn't find see anything associated with American Trad. That's why I felt it was wrong to categorize it as such. And, when I'm wrong, I'll admit it.


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## tom22

Actually cords fit in well with this thread. Get them still at JPress. or Murrays Toggery for some flamboyant looks. Hartmarx did great cords up until a few years ago available in every dept. store. BB did good ones made in USA until five years ago. The ones they show now aren't as good. Orvis does some nice embroidered ones. People talk about JCrew and some other chain store. I can't say. 
Actually, will someone mention LLBean. Mostly imports today. But a trad look for a trad price. usually. Still offering shetland sweaters after all these years. And the ever prep luxe rugby shirt. A less expensdive line but they know what is what.


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## John Hill

Hi Dan. I relooked at what I wrote and I stand by what I said (no fighting words intended). I am 53 now and have lived in North Florida all of my life. My wife and I both are that rarest creature - true Florida natives. Florida may be part of the South, but it has never really fit in with what I see as the rest of the Deep South. For to much of its history, Florida has been a jumping off point for people trying to get rich quick and little else. Do not use the election results as a guide. I hardly think Destin or Seaside is traditional Florida. Apalachicola, which used to be a good example of an old Florida fishing town, has been transformed in the last 20 years into yuppie city complete with boutiques. I have travelled enough to know that Florida is rapidly starting to resemble Calfornia. I may have to move to Georgia or South Carolina when I retire.

Having said all of that, I did grow up with a lot of what I would call traditional Southern values, including clothes. My paternal grandmother came from a wide spot in the road in Alabama and spoke with an LA accent you could cut with a butter knife. I never ever saw her in casual clothes or sweats and sneakers. She dressed up to go to the grocery store. I think the only thing she gave upon was the white gloves in public. And although my paternal grandfather was from Ohio, I cannot remember ever seeing him without a shirt or tie.

My wife did notice when she moved to Jacksonville she did have to add more items to her wardrobe because she noticed more people here still dressed up for dinner. For a brief period I thought I was going to have to buy a tuxedo because of all the black tie events she was getting invited to. You are right about one thing - the tradtion is still here, but it is dying fast.

Note to all California residents - do not take offense. I just happen to like where I live and the slowly disappearing culture I grew up with. And as an occasional visitor to Charleston, spending an hour in the Ben Silver store is a real fun experience. Their catalog has been one of the reasons I got interested in improving my wardrobe. 

I am going to retire from the National Guard in about 18 months and I am finally going to have a real civilian wardrobe for a change. This has been a great thread and I have learned a lot from all of you. Keep the comments coming.

John Hill


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## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by Dan the Man_
> 
> That post of yours seemed like it could have come straight from the pages of Chronicles Magazine. I would think the embrace of tradition over the forces of Progress would be the essence of the Right.


Dan, drop me an email (mine to you was kicked back).


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## dutchie

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by dutch_
> 
> does anybody know where i can find the window mannequins shown when you click on this link??
> 
> i believe they are from the USA, but on the internet i cannot find them.
> 
> I hope somebody can help me
> 
> Thanks,
> A fashionstore owner from Holland
> 
> 
> 
> You might try 'phoning the stores themselves, as I doubt the mannequins are American-made. Telephone numbers are listed here: .
Click to expand...

Why DON'T you think they are from the states??
I have been to these shops in spain. The only thing they would tell me is that they are imported from the USA. I guess i have a long search ahead of me. IF anybody knows where i can find these mannequins, please let me know.

Thanks in advance from the netherlands
Roel


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Dan the Man_
> 
> Horace, are you sure you are a man of the left? That post of yours seemed like it could have come straight from the pages of Chronicles Magazine. I would think the embrace of tradition over the forces of Progress would be the essence of the Right.


Dan,

In my comments on progress and tradition, I was simply trying to surmise and put into context a reason for the enduring legacy of Amer/Trad in the South.

I surmised (and I certainly may be incorrect) that one feature of the Southern intellect was a suspicion of "progress", as held by many (but certainly not all) Northern intellectuals. And actually, we can find many exceptions to the notion of progress in Northern thought (Darwin was one -- despite his progressive theory of the mechanism of evolution).

In my brief and flawed essay, I provided the examples of the essays from _I'll Take My Stand: the South and the Agrarian Tradition_ . This book was a defining moment for a Southern re-bound in its cultural and literary tradition in the early 20th-c.

Now these gentlemen were progressives. But unlike Northern progressives, these Southerners were both backward looking and forward looking. They knew that Utopian schemes of progress were deeply flawed. I'd esp. call to your attention such essays as John Crowe Ransom's "Reconstructed but Unregenerate" (a title which should be read literally and not figuratively -- or should that be the other way around?), and John Gould Fletcher's essay on the South's educational tradition. Also worth reading is " Lanier's "Critique of Progress".

15 years after the publication of this seminal Southern manifesto comes the atomic bomb. So much for progress. 3 years after that, I think, Faulkner wins the Nobel prize. One of the greatest sites at which to locate the skepticism of the doctrine of progess then prevailing in the American left is Faulkner's nobel prize winning speech, surely one of the most stirring accounts of humanity ever offered. I believe the Nobel site on the web has a copy.

It's perfectly within a leftist tradition to be wary of claims to progress. And we shouldn't necessarily conflate the left with the progressive, entirely.

H.


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## Horace

Well, to address Bored's comments in general:

I think most of us here have been writing with a wink, with a sense of irony. Perhaps Bored misreads the deliberate unserious seriousness of us all here.

And surely, students are happy to wear anything. But that wasn't the point. Surely their headmasters are (or were not) not happy to have them wear anything.

And nothing I read in Bored's essay did I find antithetical to my view. For surely, once the rules have been put into place, then the student can tweak them to his or her desire. Nothing wrong with wearing a wrinkled, frayed button-down. Nothing wrong with duct-taping one's weejuns, etc. That wasn't my point.

As to the person who mentions "arete" or excellence. My point was simply that ever since antiquity, the notion of education hasn't simply been one of say learning maths, reading, etc. It has been concerning with character-building. (hence, "paideia") . Education should be (and traditionally) has been concerned with not only the intellectual or imaginative elements of the student, but with their moral and spiritual character as well. Bound up with this indeed, has been a notion of resistance to "change" (cf. my comments on "progress" elsewhere) -- perhaps I could start another thread and flesh out these ideas if need be, since I am generalizing too much.

My point simply was this: dress is an indiciator (but not the only one) of a certain ethos in education. It can also be a determining factor towards the way a student conducts himself (for the better I think).

To the writer who mentioned the San Juan Islands: it's perfectly reasonable that a birkenstock wearing and Guatamalan-clothed student may excell. No argument there.

Another time, I should like to tackle the idea of the Ivy League and Liberal Arts Colleges.

Lastly, someone invoked GW Bush -- and his deliberate nonchalance. He may not be the best example of this, but again, just as we mentioned previouisly concerning the "sporting" ethos. This notion of appearing to "not try" -- is at its best, just that, an appearance. Whether that particular ethos was borrowed from the British, I don't know. Perhaps. The "effortlessness" toward endeavors is another aesthetic to discuss something, though of course in matters sartorial, Bored certainly discusses it well.



> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by boredtodeath_
> 
> What all of you gentlemen have failed to mention is that the true essence of the preppy/traditional New England way of dressing is not to go overboard, not to spend oodles of money on the most expensive, perfectly cut suits. . . .
> 
> True preppies are born that way; they are not "made." They are happy to wear their parents' and grandparents' cast-offs . . . .
> 
> The whole point about preps is that they care so little about what they wear that they simply don't care about dress codes. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> As a thirteenth-generation Yankee, I largely agree. As a man who enjoys dressing well (and who for his work, must), though, I emphasize the lack of concern about "dress codes": I can't categorize my wardrobe as "trad" or "Savile Row" or anything else, but it pleases me.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dan the Man

Thom,
I believe calling Zell Miller (who I am no fan of) senile constitutes needling. It is a comment meant not to inform but to provoke. It was inserted into your comment for no good reason other than to provoke. That is all I have to say on the matter, as I do not want to incur the wrath of the moderator.

John Hill, I forgot to include Micky in the list of Florida immigrants.


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## Comolli

My good friends:

I've known Zell Miller personally for some 20 years. Up until the time he was apppointed to fill the seat of Paul Coverdale, he was a professor at the University of Georgia. Zell is no doubt a learned man, a former Marine and a patriot. To say he is senile is not only provacative, it is wholly uninformed.
But, Horace, good friend, please bring us back to your abiding wisdom. I am yet to find a single notion of yours with which I could disagree.

John M. Comolli


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## Thom

Dan the Man,
I was using Miller as an example of how I felt after you decided to come out and attack my character. It was an attempt to inform you that while I was greatly offended, I would not resort to threats of violence, a la Miller. 

Let me take this chance to apologize to all those who have medically diagnosed as senile. It was unfair to compare them to Zell Miller. However, if not 'senile', what would you describe him when he challenged Chris Matthews to a duel? When I saw that, I seriously thought that Mr. Miller must be off his medication.

Horace, 
If the goal of education is to shape the character and morality of young adults, which morality do we use the reference point? Different sub-cultures within our country have different standards. Evangelical Christians believe that all morality is derived from the Bible. Yet, there are many other people who don't share the same beliefs. What about sex education in the public schools?


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## RSS

Zell Miller is neither "senile" nor "off his medication." He remains a Democrat and makes provocative comments because he loves the spotlight it shines on him. In that sense he plays it brilliantly.

This is NOT to say I agree with him. 

Two summers ago I found myself -- by chance -- riding an elevator with Senator Miller and two other gentlemen. The scene was a flashback to a decaded from my youth. Miller et al. were dressed to the nines in classic Southern "courthouse" style. He must give some thought to clothing. 

RSS
Berkeley & New York


----------



## malinda

Enough of the political discussion. Comment on how Zell Miller dresses, not whether he's senile.


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## John Hill

Hi Dan. Yes I did forget Mickey and it was probably deliberate. I consider Disney World a blot on the landscape. I may be one of the few Floridians who has never been there (unless you count dinner once).

This thread seems to be dividing into two parts - what constitutes American "Trad" and what the North/South divide is. As far as American Trad is concerned, it is a look I have always liked (it was very popular when I was in high school in the late 60s) and it still looks good. It is getting much harder to find and I think that is kind of the general mood of the thread. On the other hand, I think part of the tradition was to follow the look, but not too closely. There is a fine line between understanding the look and merely copying it. Ralph Lauren certainly capitalized on the idea, but I still think he tries a little too hard. Part of the ethos of "Trad" if you will is not looking like you tried too hard.

The Southern ethos is a little harder to describe. You can find one example in John Molloy's books. He thinks that one of the reason Ted Turner probably failed in his bid to take over CBS is that he looked too much like a Southern good ole boy. His look may have been perfect for the Atlanta business community, but it was a little too laid back for New York. A subtle distinction. For a funny look at Southern manners and personalities, try Florence Kings' "Southern Ladies and Gentlemen." It is over 20 years old, but trust me, I know the people she is describing. She has a hilarious chapter on the Southern obsession with geneology (tombstone twitch) and the Southern woman's obsession with silver patterns. My sister works in the wedding business and she fully understands the second observation.

Regards

John Hill


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## tom22

I would like the thread to return to its origins. I acknowledge that there may be a southern trad look, but i spent a lot of time at Pawley's Island SC and the trad look in a southern trad place was hard to find. Whatever. I don't think it's important. i could care less what W and Zell Miller wear. These are hardly people with taste or style. 
To change tack, I spent an hour today at one of the BB mall stores in farmington Ct and I confess I was impressed. This very closely resembled the BB I knew 25 years ago. The shetklands weren't as thicj ut they were from Scotland. The Italian flannels were a bit overpriced but quite luxe. Most impressive: The level of inventory. I mean for the first time in 15 years the store looked really full, jammed up with stuff. A definite step towards what retail shopping should be. The new owner is doing a great job. And I still wish somebody would say something about LLBean. The real thing after all these years. But maybe for all the rhetoric nobody here knows that.


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## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> i could care less what W and Zell Miller wear. These are hardly people with taste or style....But maybe for all the rhetoric nobody here knows that.


With that conciliatory tone we'll be right back on topic in no time.


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## tom22

My apologies to the Zell Miler fashionistas out there.


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## tom22

To make up for my testiness (I suppose I suffer from subconcious election withdrawal) I will report on a brief survey of the Westport Brooks Bros. store. All of the trad OXFORD buttondowns had the old red label and all appeared to have been made in the USA. Some of the other models had the awful modern label instituted some years back and all of those were still made in Asia. It's just possible the new owner has heard the complaints about the switch to all asian production and has made a change in at least the basic Brooks offering. I'm betting the collars are unlined.


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## n/a

L.L. Bean. Of course. An old stand-by. And very good sales. I do wish they would branch out into more color for men, but I understand why, with the extraordinary stock inventories they have to maintain, they do not. It wouldn't make sense.

A well-run business that hasn't lost its touch. Woodsy Trad. Authentically New England. A full quarter of my wardrobe--including my Bean Boots, Norwegian sweater, and several pairs of chinos--have come from L.L. Bean. And who mentioned that Bean still offers good stuff as Trad prices? I agree, though we can safely suspect this is because a majority of the inventory is, as it reads in the catalog, "imported." 

Cheers,
Harris


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## jrleague

It _finally_ got cold in Georgia last night. The camel hair duffle coat and schoolboy muffler made their long-awaited return. I was tickled pink (which just happened to be the color of my Andover Shetland).

J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


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## bosthist

The Zell Miller Fashion Experience!



I really can't buy L.L. Bean with good conscience these days because so much is "imported". I do love my Norwegian sweater however, purchased at 4 A.M. one Saturday morning after a run up from Boston.

Regards,

Charles


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> I would like the thread to return to its origins. I acknowledge that there may be a southern trad look, but i spent a lot of time at Pawley's Island SC and the trad look in a southern trad place was hard to find. Whatever. I don't think it's important. i could care less what W and Zell Miller wear. These are hardly people with taste or style.


I believe the original point of the bificurated thread was to make the claim that the South had carried on Amer/Trad well after New England let it go. Whether this claim has merit is another point. But I'll leave it at that. My point is that the threads (however loose) did have a point. And, so that's quite a few points, as it were.



> quote:
> To change tack, I spent an hour today at one of the BB mall stores in farmington Ct and I confess I was impressed. This very closely resembled the BB I knew 25 years ago. The shetklands weren't as thicj ut they were from Scotland. The Italian flannels were a bit overpriced but quite luxe. Most impressive: The level of inventory. I mean for the first time in 15 years the store looked really full, jammed up with stuff. A definite step towards what retail shopping should be. The new owner is doing a great job. And I still wish somebody would say something about LLBean. The real thing after all these years. But maybe for all the rhetoric nobody here knows that.


There's something about having Italian flannel that just won't do for me.

As for LL Bean -- I just received the Christmas catalog. With the exception of the Maine Hunting Shoe and a few other items (some chinos), most of the kit is no longer made in the USA. I remember when their very reasonably priced leather shoes were made in Maine. Even the great camp moc is "imported". This is a shoe that I've probably had resoled 4 or 5 times and wear to this day. Their oxford cloth shirts were always a great value as were their sweaters -- but their sweaters are made in Hong Kong now (from English wool), and their shirts too are imported.

Of LL Bean gear, I still have a few pairs of shoes, Norwegian sweater, the old duffle bags that I no longer see in catalog (haven't been to the Maine store in about 5 years), chinos of various weights, oxford cloth shirts, a coat, socks, and probably other things as well.

Are things so bad that they have to have everything made overseas? It appears to me that on their sales alone, they could keep an American shirt factory running.

I haven't closely looked at their catalog in ages until now, but it seems to me that they've changed. Maybe colors and styles are more bland? Or maybe it's that everyone else is like them now?


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> To make up for my testiness (I suppose I suffer from subconcious election withdrawal) I will report on a brief survey of the Westport Brooks Bros. store. All of the trad OXFORD buttondowns had the old red label and all appeared to have been made in the USA. Some of the other models had the awful modern label instituted some years back and all of those were still made in Asia. It's just possible the new owner has heard the complaints about the switch to all asian production and has made a change in at least the basic Brooks offering. I'm betting the collars are unlined.


This is good news. I'll need to pop into Brooks and see what's happening. That newish label was silly. Why? Some sort of evocatioin of the Gap or Ban Repub? Some desperate effort to lure that market? The other travesty was the "Brooks Basics" line. Absolute rubbish.

Some of the Brooks ties are absolutely garish. Colors are awful. The Country Club line is silly, what with the logo and whatnot.

I'd like to see them go back to English or American leather products for bags and cases. Though I understand that one is likely to take a pounding with the Pound. I suppose that Italian and Spanish leather goods are the least expensive of the quality leather goods available.

There are some good American leather companies still around, and Brooks would do a valuable service to the industry if it would commission one of the remaining Fall River, Mass. leather companies to make quality leather goods for Brooks.

I also want to see Brooks start carrying hats again.

I should have popped into the Brooks on Madison as I was just there. Apparently, from what I've read elsewhere, their selection is much better than what may be found in the provinces.

I am happy that they have the old tie-back boxer shorts though. And this summer, they had authentic Indian madras trousers.


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## GreyFlannelMan

For me, the fact that most items are no longer made in the U.S. is disappointing but the reality we live in today. LL Bean probably has investigated using the remaining manufacturers in the U.S. but is unable to make it work from a cost standpoint. Many of the overseas manufacturers are more competitive not only on price, but more importantly, quality.

We have essentially given up on making textiles and apparel in this country. As someone involved in the bankruptcy process, I have had five clients in the industry file to reorganize. Three have liquidated altogether, while the two that have emerged/ will emerge have shed all of their US manufacturing.


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## n/a

LL Bean was once Trad--purely American (with a salute to the British Isles, of course) Trad: Scottish-made shetlands, USA-made chinos and flannel shirts, shoes manufactured in Maine and MA, and USA-made accesories, including the famous Made-for-LLBean-by-Hamilton field watch. While Bean still carries the same styles and cuts, I find it difficult to get past the "Imported" label on nearly everything they sell. I dread the day when they ask some sweat shop in Taiwan to make the Norwegian Sweater and the Bean Boot, but that day could very well come. Tragic. 

If one wants USA and British Isles-made Trad clothing at a reasonable cost, hold out for the twice-a-year sales at Andover Shop and Ben Silver. Also, Murray's offers a few sidewalk sales each year and typically marks down in the off season to move inventory. 

Also--and I know I'll receive some negative feedback for this--I've found many a Trad item at Ralph's Madison Avenue flagship, including a double-breasted camel hair polo coat and a nice herringbone tweed.

Cheers,
Harris


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## Thom

Let's remember that all those sweat shop workers who got Kathy Lee Gifford in trobule were located here in the US. You don't need to travel half way across the world to find sweatshops. I just finished reading Nickled and Dimed, and there are plenty of workers in America whose working conditions aren't ideal either. 

I'll never understand why people insist that their clothes must be made in america. Its one thing if its to protect american jobs. But, its misguided if you do because you insist that this will make the quality higher. GreyFlannelMan is probably correct in that you can't make it from a cost standpoint in america. With such high labor costs, they would probably cut corners somewhere else, something even more important for quality. 

It seems hypocritical to me to bemoan how nothing is made in America, and also yelp about how expensive American Trad clothing is. The reason why clothes are outsourced overseas is to keep the cost down, otherwise they'd be even higher.


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## n/a

Actually, I rarely complain about the cost of USA and British Isles-made Trad clothing. Hardly ever. If you get the color, fit, and style you want, then it's worth it, right? 

That's not to say I'm willing to pay top dollar, but it goes to the point that I'll wait for the 25% off sales at J. Press and the season liquidation sales at Andover Shop, Murray's, and Ben Silver before I'll buy from other places that rely almost exclusively upon cheap foreign labor. 

Best,
Harris


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## Thom

Won't it ultimately hurt American Trad if you buy it only when these items are 25% sale or on clearance? I'm sure that most stores keep track of their inventories, and what sells. If they aren't able to sell them at full retail price and make a profit, I don't see why they wouldn't discontinue that line or color.


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## n/a

There's no doubt that profit will suffer so long as any business specializes in a look that only a minority of people will wear. To be honest, I'm not sure that profit is the top priority of the traders in Trad toggery. If it was, they would close the doors and do something else much more profitable. Or do what Brooks did: broaden the look and open up a bunch of outlet stores.

I think of Trad in the same way that I think of so many other things that lack "mass appeal"--unique and under-appreciated. But that's what makes it special for some of us.

The thing about Trad is that it's essentially casual. When you place a big, shapeless sack coat next to one those shaped, darted, tucked-in Euro or Saville Row jobs, it's easy to see what makes for a Trad suit: a relaxed ease of fit and movement. In a word, casual. The sporty, fun-loving color of Trad's "casual look" speaks to the nonchalant (and cheap) devil-may-careism of Trad. So, it follows that nothing within the realm of Trad should cost too much. If it was excessively expensive, it wouldn't be Trad at all.

If the Euro/Saville Row look could be equated with a shiny new Bentley, BMW, or Mercedes Benz, then Trad is an old, broken-in Jeep or Ford. The analogy fails, but you get the idea. 

Harris


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> Let's remember that all those sweat shop workers who got Kathy Lee Gifford in trobule were located here in the US. You don't need to travel half way across the world to find sweatshops. I just finished reading Nickled and Dimed, and there are plenty of workers in America whose working conditions aren't ideal either.
> 
> I'll never understand why people insist that their clothes must be made in america. Its one thing if its to protect american jobs. But, its misguided if you do because you insist that this will make the quality higher. GreyFlannelMan is probably correct in that you can't make it from a cost standpoint in america. With such high labor costs, they would probably cut corners somewhere else, something even more important for quality.
> 
> It seems hypocritical to me to bemoan how nothing is made in America, and also yelp about how expensive American Trad clothing is. The reason why clothes are outsourced overseas is to keep the cost down, otherwise they'd be even higher.


Nikled and Dimed is an interesting book.

While I'd like to see more-than-decent working conditions for all American workers, please don't compare the conditions here with the conditions in China. It's simply laughable to do so, with the exception of some aberrant examples here.

What are you thinking that they would cut "more important" [than?] "quality" were they to remain (or resume as the case may be) manufacturing in America?

To counter the received widsom if I may: I'd say the chances of getting a quality shirt from China at a price that is so much cheaper than the USA is not a good one. At this point the only thing I can see that you're getting cheaper is labor. Land maybe, but it's gone up so much in the past 10 years. And there is still a lot of machinery you'd have to import from Western countries. You've also got rising transportation costs, rising labor costs in China (insignificant but still there), graft and corruption (which no one talks about) but is still there even with the largest of firms.

Thinking only of China, there are so many costs that aren't on the books, and remember that you've got to have Western infrastructure in the place to begin with. In a previous thread, I thought I made a pretty good case for why China is the "smoke" without the fire. The Chinese dragon is only smouldering. It's not about to rain down fire. But I won't make that argument here.

What I do wonder however, is why some rig like LL Bean cannot, by virtue of the amount they sell, manufacture it's button-downs in the USA for a decent price? You've got Mercer & Son's making shirts and retailing them for what? US$67? What if LL Bean put an order in as did other makers? How low could one get the price then whilst still making a respectable profit?

Surely the price could be almost[?] as competitive as the stuff coming in from overseas?
I'd like to see numbers.

A lot of western infrastructures goes into those Asian countries to make clothing. Now, I think that Ralph Lauren make very good product when he made his shirts in Singapore or HK. But I don't think it's easy.

If it came to it, I'd rather pay more and have less, as long as that less is well-made. I am sure others on this thread feel that same, but I don't know about the average consumer.


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## Giona Granata

I subscribe completely Horace words.

Why certain products cannot be manufactured in the states?

I have an old BB shirts made in USA; the cotton is incredible, and it is almosta indestructible; I have also an OLD pair of Timberland shoes made in the USA 30 years ago; I used them till today in hard conditions (snow). Now they are made in Malesya and that shoes (I think) in Italy. They aren't the same thing.

I wonder why USA have lost this wonderful craftmanship.


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## Rocker

> quote:25% off sales at J. Press and the season liquidation sales at Andover Shop, Murray's, and Ben Silver


Harris, when do these sales occurr? I've seen J.Press announce them on their website, but none of the others.

Regarding LL Bean - I think it sold its soul long ago. It began when shipping was no longer included in the price of the product (yes, I know, with all the mail cost increases over the years, it was inevitable). Gosh, how I loved to get their fall catalog, back when. For some reason, I still have a Christmas catalog from 1982 - compare the old catalogs to the new, and it's not the same company. As someone else mentioned, as to why Bean can't go to a U.S. manufatcurer with a large order and get a reasonable price - the other thing that bothers me about Bean is that they change the cut/styling ALL the time. A pair of khakis from 20, 15, 10, 5 years ago is not the same cut, construction, fabric - they're obviously moving around looking for the cheapest producer. I wish they would just design a pattern and say this is the Bean pattern - make it to these specs, with this weight fabric or we go somewhere else. I bought several pairs of a "Rangley"? khaki pants 12 years ago, and they were great, subsequent orders of khakis have been less than satisfactory. They even changed the styling/leather on their old leather "flying tiger" jacket (it's not an improvement - I have one I bought about 20 years ago)I am sad to hear that their moccassins are no longer made in the US - I hadn't noticed. I suppose that's to be expected from a company that authorizes an "LL bean" version of the Subaru. I think that's a cheesy product tie-in, anyway, but if you're going to do it, choose an American 4X4 for gods sake - I think that's apalling. I remember saving up to buy my first pair of Bean corduroy pants in 1981, as a kid. I haven't ordered from LL Bean in probably 6 years now - I think they're targeting the trendy, espresso drinking, little import driving, poetry reading sophisticates (not that there's anything wrong with that)who like to feel "outdoorsy" with all their nylon, polyester fleece, and gore-tex. Is this LL Bean or REI? All I want from Bean is a substantial pair of cotton khakis, tartan flannel shirts, SCOTTISH shetland sweaters, corduroy pants, wool socks in a variety of colors, etc. and I want them to be the same - year after year. I don't want the dang spandex bicycle shorts, the gore-tex "windstopper" sweater, etc.


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## n/a

I empathize. About seven or eight years ago, I invested in a Bean Shetland. It felt like sandpaper. Scratchy and harsh. Just plain awful. When you compare with Andover Shop's offerings, it's no contest.
Cheers,
Harris


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## KenCPollock

> quote:_Originally posted by boredtodeath_
> 
> I am a woman (gasp!) who graduated from eight years at the Winsor School in Boston. I dated boys from Fessenden, Andover, Exeter, Lawrenceville, Belmont Hill, Roxbury Latin, and a few other boys' prep schools....
> At Winsor, we girls carried hideous green bookbags that over time caused one shoulder to rise permanently (we had posture pictures in the eleventh grade to prove it), wore the same pair of creased Weejuns until they literally fell apart, kneesocks, wool pleated Tartan skirts, Skyr cotton turtlenecks, and Shetland cardigans (worn backwards with the buttons up the back!


Wow! You got around! Were you cute, fast, or both?
I showed my wife your post. I am sure that she had nothing in common with you, she being a Georgia girl. However, she says that she also wore Shetland cardigans, backwards, with the buttons up the back.


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## tom22

Truth to tell, I don't know where Bean's present day Shetlands are made. I know in the 80s they came from Scotland and I think the same place Brooks got them. Does anyone know where they come from today. I haven't been in Freeport in 15 years. Apparently all of the Maine shoemakers and certainly Hathaway of Waterville ME for 150 years are gone. So the stuff is imported. The look
is
still classic. the boots are think are still made
in ME. But is there quality still there?
Any current customers want to write in. For sure in the 1980s this was a prep standby. I honestly don't know if this is true today. Anybody in prep school today have an opinion? Tom (from the 80s tom)


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## Tyto

[tom22]
But is there quality still there? 
Any current customers want to write in. For sure in the 1980s this was a prep standby. I honestly don't know if this is true today. Anybody in prep school today have an opinion?

[Tyto]
I can't tell you about prep students, but I've a friend in his mid-50s who is definitely a student of the trad school (from what I've seen described here) and swears by Bean oxfords, khakis, and sweaters. Following his continuing endorsement of Bean, I just ordered some wool gabardines (they're on sale), so within a few days I can report on their quality.

Oh, in browsing their catalog, I noticed that their jeans are still made in the U.S. But Harris is correct--almost everything else appeared to be imported.

Also, I, too, have always admired the Bean/Hamilton watch, but could never spend the money. I see that Hamiltons still go for over $200 on discount. Any of you folks know of sources of decent-quality, "khaki"-style watches in the $100-or-less range? I'm not familiar with the quality brands of such watches other than Victorinox or Wenger.

__________

Fair and softly goes far.


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> Truth to tell, I don't know where Bean's present day Shetlands are made. I know in the 80s they came from Scotland and I think the same place Brooks got them. Does anyone know where they come from today. I haven't been in Freeport in 15 years. Apparently all of the Maine shoemakers and certainly Hathaway of Waterville ME for 150 years are gone. So the stuff is imported. The look
> is
> still classic. the boots are think are still made
> in ME. But is there quality still there?


I bought a shetland from Bean three years ago. Made in Scotland. Quality not superb, but okay. I called Bean a few weeks ago, their wool is from England; the sweaters are manufactured in Hong Kong.

I would like to hear reports from others too. I recently bought a half dozen of their grey heather t-shirts, and they are well-made but imported.

I also concur with the poster who mentioned sizing. It's all over the place.

The only products I know that are still made in the USA are: the "renamed" Maine Hunting Shoe, jeans, and the Boat 'n Tote bag.


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## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> Let me take this chance to apologize to all those who have medically diagnosed as senile. It was unfair to compare them to Zell Miller. However, if not 'senile', what would you describe him when he challenged Chris Matthews to a duel? When I saw that, I seriously thought that Mr. Miller must be off his medication.


I've always maintained that the code duello is a reasonable and efficient way to dispatch not only rudeness, but our clogged court system.


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## DukeGrad

Gentlemen, My friend Horace and Mr Harris.
I remember LL Bean as a traditional item only. When there was the one store, their Boots, sweaters, and shirts were an item to have.
I dont see that now, and I think why things are imported, it is to sell the most, that cost very little, to turn a profit.
LL Bean is making a buck, like most companies.
Harris had guided me to Andover shop to look into sweaters.
I was looking for McGeorge.
They are no longer there.
But most items are knitted in Scotland, there are many companies that make the sweaters there.
One of is the Scottish Sweater Company I believe.
I agree with a couple of you.
LL Bean had turned around many years ago, to cut costs, get a cheaper item.
Here is my question to all of you??
I am a fan of the best, lets use sweaters.
I looked for JD McGeorge, no longer in business.
I knew they made solid stuff, for many years.
I feel hesitant in buying a sweater that is knitted in Scotland and made by a company I dont know?
I have been burned by poor quality:
Items from China, Japan, etc.
I am frustrated now.
Years ago, you could call LL Bean, Brooks Brothers etc and feel you were getting something that of good quality.
Not any more.

Harris: I have the same watch, LOL

Horrace: Mercer is the only one that makes a nice button down any more.
Gentlemen, I would not buy the higher price Hamilton field watch, the watch costs 10 bucks.
I wear my old Tiemx. The others are a gimmick off the military field watch, but cost 150 dollars??
Kids in college love these. My daughter went off to school with all my Mountain Hardware Fleeces, my old Vietnam military field watch.
They are not that expensive.
The original was Hamilton, then Benrus, then Timex.
It is basically a cheap watch!
Not 150 dollars!!!!!!
I did a lot of search on the Scottish Mills, thanks to Harris directing me to the Andover Shop.
Have nice day gentlemen.
Yea, going to gym!


Jimmy


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## DukeGrad

Gentlemen

I wanted to point out my experiences with Brooks Brothers.
The past 10 years, I had bought a couple scottish wool sweaters.
They were knitted in Scotland , made either in Paraguay or China.
They are terrible.
Not like my old ones which is obvious the difference in quality.
The old ones had heft, were a solid sewing and good wool.
The feel is the biggest I note in the sweaters.
To the gentleman that mentioned the LL Bean sweater, it probably would not be made well.
I am noting that a great scottish wool sweater will run around 150 now.
That is what Cable Car clothiers charges for their John Laing, 
The Andover shop has nice ones made by another company in scotland.
The quality has gone down hill for many companies.
I dont mind paying for items, if it is the real eal

Have nice day

Jimmy


----------



## n/a

I remember college Spring Breaks at Killington. Somehow we managed to head East and drop by the LL Bean in Freeport. We're talking early 90s, before J. Crew and Gap had "caught on." Everyone wore Bean--everything from the shetlands to the original Maine Hunting Shoe to the blucher mocs to the old Hamilton-made field watch. 

I'm pleased to hear no one thinks a Timex "cheapens" an otherwise "nice "outfit." I still love the look of the round, stainless steel Hamilton Khaki field watch, though. 

Jimmy, I'm interested in the Andover Shop shetland that's sort of a heather kelly green. Very nice. It's in the current catalog. It may the "grass green." Or it may be the green lovat. I love my salmon heather shetland, which I bought on sale. (The Andover Shop's sale used to take place in late winter/early spring).

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## boredtodeath

> quote:_Originally posted by kencpollock_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by boredtodeath_
> 
> I am a woman (gasp!) who graduated from eight years at the Winsor School in Boston. I dated boys from Fessenden, Andover, Exeter, Lawrenceville, Belmont Hill, Roxbury Latin, and a few other boys' prep schools....
> At Winsor, we girls carried hideous green bookbags that over time caused one shoulder to rise permanently (we had posture pictures in the eleventh grade to prove it), wore the same pair of creased Weejuns until they literally fell apart, kneesocks, wool pleated Tartan skirts, Skyr cotton turtlenecks, and Shetland cardigans (worn backwards with the buttons up the back!
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! You got around! Were you cute, fast, or both?
> I showed my wife your post. I am sure that she had nothing in common with you, she being a Georgia girl. However, she says that she also wore Shetland cardigans, backwards, with the buttons up the back.
Click to expand...


----------



## boredtodeath

> quote:_Originally posted by kencpollock_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by boredtodeath_
> 
> I am a woman (gasp!) who graduated from eight years at the Winsor School in Boston. I dated boys from Fessenden, Andover, Exeter, Lawrenceville, Belmont Hill, Roxbury Latin, and a few other boys' prep schools....
> At Winsor, we girls carried hideous green bookbags that over time caused one shoulder to rise permanently (we had posture pictures in the eleventh grade to prove it), wore the same pair of creased Weejuns until they literally fell apart, kneesocks, wool pleated Tartan skirts, Skyr cotton turtlenecks, and Shetland cardigans (worn backwards with the buttons up the back!
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! You got around! Were you cute, fast, or both?
> I showed my wife your post. I am sure that she had nothing in common with you, she being a Georgia girl. However, she says that she also wore Shetland cardigans, backwards, with the buttons up the back.
Click to expand...


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## boredtodeath

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> You're right, boredtodeath, but I think one also needs to acknowledge that teenage clothing is in its own category. My aunt, who graduated from an all-girls prep school in the late 1940s, wore blue sweaters as part of the school uniform. She told me that an obviously worn and frayed blue sweater was a status symbol because it meant that you had started at the school in one of the younger grades or (even better) that you were wearing a hand-me-down from an older sister or cousin who had already graduated. Yet the point of her story was to warn me that my frayed shirts and scuffed loafers with holes in the bottom would need replacing when I left college and went looking for a job. I still wear a few items that belonged to my father and grandfather (a belt, some sweaters, a dinner jacket, a Lacoste shirt), but most of what I had from them finally disintegrated. At some point I had to go shopping for new clothes. And I'll wear THOSE clothes until THEY disintegrate.


----------



## boredtodeath

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> You're right, boredtodeath, but I think one also needs to acknowledge that teenage clothing is in its own category. My aunt, who graduated from an all-girls prep school in the late 1940s, wore blue sweaters as part of the school uniform. She told me that an obviously worn and frayed blue sweater was a status symbol because it meant that you had started at the school in one of the younger grades or (even better) that you were wearing a hand-me-down from an older sister or cousin who had already graduated. Yet the point of her story was to warn me that my frayed shirts and scuffed loafers with holes in the bottom would need replacing when I left college and went looking for a job. I still wear a few items that belonged to my father and grandfather (a belt, some sweaters, a dinner jacket, a Lacoste shirt), but most of what I had from them finally disintegrated. At some point I had to go shopping for new clothes. And I'll wear THOSE clothes until THEY disintegrate.


We had a different status tradition at Winsor: when those of us who entered in Class I (as fifth graders), we were issued gym uniforms (shirts and shirts) in one of four colors (my class was lucky and received sky blue uniforms). As our class grew and grew up, most of the girls would have to replace their faded gym uniforms at least once and sometimes twice (after all, the school included grades 5 through 12). Those of us who, as seniors, were still wearing our original, faded fifth grade uniforms, were in the small minority (I was a member of that minority) and this granted us a sort of status. I must admit, the fifth grade uniforms looked very fetching on twelfth graders!


----------



## boredtodeath

Wow! You got around! Were you cute, fast, or both?
I showed my wife your post. I am sure that she had nothing in common with you, she being a Georgia girl. However, she says that she also wore Shetland cardigans, backwards, with the buttons up the back.
[/quote]

Dear Mr. Pollock: As you well know, I have a lot in common with your wife. We share genes, as we are first cousins, as well as an increasing fascination with genealogy.

Some may have thought I was cute in my teen years, some may have thought I was even a bit "fast," but I met my husband-to-be (Andover '66; Yale '70) one month into college and settled down quickly. Dryly, your first-cousin-in-law


----------



## Horace

Anyone remember those engine-turned sterling belt-buckles that one could attach to a leather strap? 

Brooks no longer carries the original model with the 3 lines going across (with a space for a monogram). I wanted to order several as gifts. Does anyone know who still carries them?


----------



## rws

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> Anyone remember those engine-turned sterling belt-buckles that one could attach to a leather strap?
> 
> Brooks no longer carries the original model with the 3 lines going across (with a space for a monogram). I wanted to order several as gifts. Does anyone know who still carries them?


Tiffany's carries similar though not identical buckles. Or you could go straight to the source, the 139-year-old Larter & Son in northern New Jersey: one of the best-quality manufacturing jewellers on either side of the Atlantic.


----------



## rojo

Horace, you might also investigate Shoreline Engravers. They describe their buckles as follows:

Engine turned traditional compression buckle 1 7/8" x 1 1/4" fits belts from 1" to 1 1/8" width. Polished sterling finish.

Here is the link:



They also offer monogrammed blazer buttons in a variety of styles.


----------



## n/a

Brooks still carries them. I saw them in the 346 this past summer. Call them.

Polo-RL carries a nice engine turned buckle:

https://www.polo.com/product/index....page=2&nav=lhn&pageBucket=0&parentPage=family

As well as a nice alligator strap to match:
https://www.polo.com/product/index....page=2&nav=lhn&pageBucket=0&parentPage=family

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Horace

Thank you gentlemen for the leads.

Am I correct in assuming that this buckle has been traditionally paired with an alligator belt? I've rarely seen it with any other style leather belt.

On a slightly different note: for all you dames out there, does anyone know where to find a 1" belt without buckle to be paired with a Tiffany belt buckle for women? Christmas is coming up, and all that.


----------



## kabert

Horace,

Check out Paul Stuart for the silver belt buckle. I recently bought one from them for a croc strap. As for women's, PS or BB might carry them too. I'd also give the Polo store a try.


----------



## onthelistbaby

Well, I'm still only about half way through this thread. It's great.

RJman, - naff and yobbos - please deffine.

I'm thinking "now a fashion fau pas", and... um, just no idea on the yobbos.


----------



## RJman

You not da boss of me. I find onelook.com is the most versatile online dictionary. Hint.

Here:
yobbo
noun (Derogatory) 1. an unrefined, uncultured, slobbish person: I gotta change out of me stubbies, I don't wanna look like a yobbo. 2. a hooligan or lout: I was hassled by a bunch of drunken yobbos on their way home from the football. Also, yob. [19thC British slang yob a young lad (backslang for boy) + -o]

naff Adj. 1. Rubbishy, useless, of poor quality. [1960s][_See boots on marc-au's sig file_]
2. Unfashionable. [1960s]

naff
Chiefly British --adjective 1. inferior; tasteless.

NAFF, n. A kind of tufted sea-fowl.

naff 
worthless, useless; tacky, tasteless, unfashionable [Brit slang]


----------



## 14983

> quote:_Originally posted by boredtodeath_
> 
> Some may have thought I was cute in my teen years, some may have thought I was even a bit "fast," but I met my husband-to-be (Andover '66; Yale '70) one month into college and settled down quickly. Dryly, your first-cousin-in-law


Neat - so he was at each school for two years with the president (Andover '64; Yale '68).


----------



## Literide

Maybe he is the President and this is Laura sparring with another member of the Bush/Walker/Ellis/etc clan in the Northeast.
And maybe the Secret Service is monitoring this forum....


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> Maybe he is the President and this is Laura sparring with another member of the Bush/Walker/Ellis/etc clan in the Northeast.
> And maybe the Secret Service is monitoring this forum....


Actually, I wonder (and I hate to fuel speculation) whether Mr. Pollock's recent flight to Paris (as mentioned on Styleforum.com) has anything to do with his alleged kin (bored) running him out of the South?

Edit: corrected. thanks kid.


----------



## Joe G.

> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> Now, that's funny that Charleston would be considered loyalist since this is where the Civil War erupted when those southern radicals invaded Fort Sumter. As such, I would have thought this would Rebel country.
> 
> I'm sure that Alexander Kabbaz and I can both agree that history has not looked kindly upon the South for the real reasons behind their attempted seccesion.


The real reason why the South even fought for seccesion from the United Kingdom was not for states' rights, but for slavery. Most of the Southern slaverowners had joined the Revolution precisely to retain slavery. In November 1775, Lord Dunmore, the royal governor of Virgina, had issued a proclamation offering freedom to slaves willing to defend the Crown- an action that sent many panicky, once reluctant slaveholders stampeding into the patriot camp. As Samuel Johnson wrote, "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty from the drivers of the blacks." Indeed, where was this concern for states rights when the government enacted the Slavery Fugitive Act many years later?

In the American South, thier exaggerated sense of romantic honor and tradition was an unconscious way for slaveholders to flaunt thier moral superiority, purge pent-up guilt,and cloak the bruthish nature of their trade.


----------



## 3 Button Bob

You can go to the website @ jpressonline.com and request the new catalog. They have really improved it.


> quote:_Originally posted by jrleague_
> 
> I am a religious wearer of the "American traditional" look. All I have is sack suits/sports jackets, plain front trousers, and Alden slip-ons. And those great narrow J. Press ties and bowties.
> 
> And apparently there are a lot of other devotees to this style, because everytime I order from J. Press, I only receive about half of my order since everything else is out of stock. I just received two point collar dress shirts I ordered in June.
> 
> BTW, has anyone received their fall/winter J. Press catalog yet? Mine has never arrived.
> 
> J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


----------



## 3 Button Bob

Hathaway makes the J Press buttondown. Gitman makes the formal shirts. As for Nick Hilton and Norman Hilton, they have actually called back some of the old tailors that made the original clothes.


> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> 
> I, too, am an adherent of the Anglo-Ivy school. Monitoring this forum for only a few weeks now, I was worried that a phallanx of Italo-philes were in control. It's a relief to find some like-minder dressers.
> 
> My fall Press and Silver catalogues are in hand, and I have a few questions about them. I welcome Press' inclusion of country of origin notices and I thank them for concentrating so much of their business in North America and Britain. Silver, on the other hand, is tight-lipped about where many of their items are made. While the selection of goods in the Silver book has improved markedly over the past couple years, the quality of the copy remains abyssmal and ignorant. Perhaps the lack of information about country of origin is only another symptom similar to neglecting to mention whether a shirt is exact-sized or smlx, whether socks shown rolled are short or over-the-calf, and so on. In the fall catalogue, Silver reveals the "return of Norman Hilton." What manufacturer is making the new Norman Hilton? Is it an extension of Nicky Hilton's Italian-made line? Is it the old Oakloom shop at Hartz? For that matter, who is the Canadian maker of Press' clothing? Peerless? Coppley? Victor?
> RG
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know who makes the Canadian Press shirts, but I wasn't too happy with one that they sent me last order. The quality wasn't as good as in the past -- on that particular shirt, at least.
Click to expand...


----------



## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by Joe G._
> 
> In the American South, thier exaggerated sense of romantic honor and tradition was an unconscious way for slaveholders to flaunt thier moral superiority, purge pent-up guilt,and cloak the bruthish nature of their trade.


*yawn*


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Joe G._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Thom_
> 
> Now, that's funny that Charleston would be considered loyalist since this is where the Civil War erupted when those southern radicals invaded Fort Sumter. As such, I would have thought this would Rebel country.
> 
> I'm sure that Alexander Kabbaz and I can both agree that history has not looked kindly upon the South for the real reasons behind their attempted seccesion.
> 
> 
> 
> The real reason why the South even fought for seccesion from the United Kingdom was not for states' rights, but for slavery. Most of the Southern slaverowners had joined the Revolution precisely to retain slavery. In November 1775, Lord Dunmore, the royal governor of Virgina, had issued a proclamation offering freedom to slaves willing to defend the Crown- an action that sent many panicky, once reluctant slaveholders stampeding into the patriot camp. As Samuel Johnson wrote, "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty from the drivers of the blacks." Indeed, where was this concern for states rights when the government enacted the Slavery Fugitive Act many years later?
> 
> In the American South, thier exaggerated sense of romantic honor and tradition was an unconscious way for slaveholders to flaunt thier moral superiority, purge pent-up guilt,and cloak the bruthish nature of their trade.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your cogent analysis. Historians can now rest assured that their work is done.

And by the way, if you're going to quote Johnson, at least get the context right. There are about five things wrong with your use of his alleged comment, least of all the fact that you didn't quote it correctly (and neither did the website from which you apparently copy-and-pasted it).


----------



## bosthist

Joe G.:

Seeing as how there were no states, it would have been difficult for Southern slaveholders to fight for state's rights against the British crown.

However, if anyone is interested in the political beliefs of those who started the revolution, Gordon Wood's _The Creation of the American Republic_ might be a good place to start.

Horace--are you a historian?

Regards,

Charles


----------



## tom22

I cast my vote for sticking to clothes on this site. there are other places for history and politics.


----------



## bosthist

Tom22:

One of the questions posed in this thread asked why the trad look has lasted longer in the South than in other places. Unfortunately this question can't be answered (at least to my mind) without looking into cultural history and politics, the idea of southern exceptionalism, and the aristocratic tradition fostered by the planter class.

But I will cease.

Regards,

Charles


----------



## tom22

It was just my opinion. But the arguments won't be settled here and every time I saw there was a new post on the thread (one of myy favoites) I felt a little dsiappointed to find it wasn't actually about American clothing. Regards.


----------



## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> Seeing as how there were no states, it would have been difficult for Southern slaveholders to fight for state's rights against the British crown.


Yes, but to a large extent, the American Revolution was a fight by the colonists for local particularism instead of central control, which, after all, is the same as states' rights.



> quote:
> However, if anyone is interested in the political beliefs of those who started the revolution, Gordon Wood's _The Creation of the American Republic_ might be a good place to start.


An excellent book. Two others are _The Origins of American Politics_ and _The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution_, both by Bernard Bailyn.


----------



## n/a

I too hope we can stick with clothing, but I understand that clothing and culture are often inseparable. One influences the other.

As I've said before, I don't doubt that my brethren to the South keep the American/Trad/Ivy League look going strong, but I've seen it (at its best) in New England, NYC, NYC suburbs, and the Baltimore-D.C. area. A recent trip to Philly revealed that the look has survived in the city of brotherly love.

Somebody mentioned the South's allegiance to the darted, Saville Row look as opposed to pure American Trad. That's about right, I think.

Does anybody remember the "Brooks Tennis" label from the 80s? Sweaters, trousers, tennis shorts, etc. Nice. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## n/a

For the J. Press afficianados:



Cheers,
Harris


----------



## tom22

I was at the New Haven store yesterday. May it last forever!


----------



## rojo

Whenever I need something, I usually try J. Press first, because I too would like to see it last forever.

The Chesterfield coat from J. Press that was recently on e-bay did not meet its reserve price and has been relisted. This time there's a starting bid of $91 with no reserve. I usually wear a 38, not a 40, but it's right here in Washington state so maybe I should go try it on.


----------



## Joe G.

And by the way, if you're going to quote Johnson, at least get the context right. There are about five things wrong with your use of his alleged comment, least of all the fact that you didn't quote it correctly (and neither did the website from which you apparently copy-and-pasted it).
[/quote]

Oh, Lord Horace (to use D. Bresch's term of endearment), explain how the context is wrong. The only change to the quote is that I used a more politically correct term, black, then the more common slur used in those days. The context of the quote was that it showed the hypocrisy of the american revolutionary movement in the south, where you have men like Thomas Jefferson justifying revolution in terms of human independence, while exploiting the labor of their slaves. The quote, if you insist on its reference, comes from McCollough's book John Adams,page 133. And, this statement from Horace Walpole who shared the sentiment by saying "I should think the souls of the Africans would sit heavily on the wrods of the Americans." This quote is from Ron CHernow.

The ironic fact is that during this period, the north was considerably more anglophille than the south. So, its natural that the origins of American Trad can be traced to the north. Later, during the civil war, the South tried to persuade the British to intervene. Perhaps this is where the South's flirtation with anglophillia began as it tried to illegaly seccede. However, since the Constitiution transcends state governments and directly expresses the will of the American people. Hence, it began as "We the People of th eUnited States' and was ratified by special conventions, and not state legislatures.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Joe G._
> 
> And by the way, if you're going to quote Johnson, at least get the context right. There are about five things wrong with your use of his alleged comment, least of all the fact that you didn't quote it correctly (and neither did the website from which you apparently copy-and-pasted it).


Oh, Lord Horace (to use D. Bresch's term of endearment), explain how the context is wrong. The only change to the quote is that I used a more politically correct term, black, then the more common slur used in those days. The context of the quote was that it showed the hypocrisy of the american revolutionary movement in the south, where you have men like Thomas Jefferson justifying revolution in terms of human independence, while exploiting the labor of their slaves. The quote, if you insist on its reference, comes from McCollough's book John Adams,page 133. And, this statement from Horace Walpole who shared the sentiment by saying "I should think the souls of the Africans would sit heavily on the wrods of the Americans." This quote is from Ron CHernow.

The ironic fact is that during this period, the north was considerably more anglophille than the south. So, its natural that the origins of American Trad can be traced to the north. Later, during the civil war, the South tried to persuade the British to intervene. Perhaps this is where the South's flirtation with anglophillia began as it tried to illegaly seccede. However, since the Constitiution transcends state governments and directly expresses the will of the American people. Hence, it began as "We the People of th eUnited States' and was ratified by special conventions, and not state legislatures.

[/quote]

My original criticism stands. And I could critique further. But why?

I'm going to give you a homework assignment, Joe G: find the original source of the quotation, read it, and then come back and discuss.

You're like a little boy who's piping up an ianity after ianity at a table with men.

If you need help, I'd be glad to offer a booster seat.


----------



## onthelistbaby

Horace, do you mean "inanity"? 

As far as I can tell (And that may not be very far!), "ianity" is an inanity.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by onthelistbaby_
> 
> Horace, do you mean "inanity"?
> 
> As far as I can tell (And that may not be very far!), "ianity" is an inanity.


Thanks for correction!


----------



## FoxHunt

"The ironic fact is that during this period, the north was considerably more anglophille than the south. So, its natural that the origins of American Trad can be traced to the north."

If you are talking the mid-ninteenth century, then the origins of the clothing styles would be England. The New York Tailors (who set the standard for fashion throughout the nation) looked to England for their "inspiration" and more specifically to the likes of Prince Albert (among others). 

The ready made clothing factories in New York City in the ante-bellum period sent 2/3 of their clothing to be sold to the South. The production of NYC exceeded that of Baltimore, Boston and Philadelphia combined. It was exceedingly common to see clothing stores advertizing "the latest New York fashions" throughout the South and those clothes were considered highly desirable.

It would have been extremely difficult to see any major variation in the style of clothing worn in the north, south or west in this period of history.

Brian Koenig


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> Tom22:
> 
> One of the questions posed in this thread asked why the trad look has lasted longer in the South than in other places. Unfortunately this question can't be answered (at least to my mind) without looking into cultural history and politics, the idea of southern exceptionalism, and the aristocratic tradition fostered by the planter class.
> 
> But I will cease.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Charles


Charles -- agreed. (To answer your other ques., no I'm not a historian by profession nor training, though I've read widely in the general history from antiquity to present -- or at least I've tried to).

I myself brough politics and history into the discussion, though some might object, because, like Charles, I believe that there are cultural and ideological reasons why we do what we do. I suppose, in general, our whole enterprise in discussion clothing may be a bit absurd, but we're having fun, n'est pas?

I just posited that the South, unlike the North, didn't try to offer themselves up (after Emerson) as this entity indepedent of England (think of the seminal essay by Emerson, "The American Scholar"). In my reading of SOuthern Literature, I guessed that the South had no problem with looking toward Europe (and this includes England I suppose) as some sort of beacon or anchor for it's culture. (That plus the South's ties to England during Civil War)

Therefore, it was my humble guess that one reason for the endurance of AmerTrad in the south was this tradition.

I was searching for an article, and came across a mention of an essay entitled "The Reluctant Wasp" in Town and Country -- this was being discussed on a board called gopreppy.com.

Anyway, I thought the discussion there, about Trad clothing & culture was interesting. I think some people were being tongue in cheek and ironic, but nevertheless many of the messages related to a rejection of current (or enduring) cultural obsessions with money.
Believe it or not, I sort of see Press and other trad shops as anti-fashion, anti-consumerism, in that they offer value and timeless style that forgoes fickle fashion. It's probably one of the most "anti-fashion" statements you can make. Simply put, it could read: No, I am not going to buy a suit that will only be fashionable for two seasons, cut from some horrible, luxurious cloth, that is mostly a fetish of some designer.


----------



## n/a

Yes! Well stated, Horace. 

Another thing about the South: Southerners somehow manage to combine the American Trad look with a more intentionally dressy, "formal" approach. What I mean is that while a great many New Englanders have worn their hand-me-downs from Brooks and J. Press to the point that they're threadbare, wrinkled beyond repair, and even ugly, the dapper Southerners I know combine the polite, easy formality (for which the South is known) with looks that an New England Trad of old would endorse as Trad. That is, the Southern approach is more pressed, ironed, and "kept up" than what I see in the Northeast.

The Trad-leaning dandies of old (think Dean Acheson) would smile upon what Ben Silver and other Southern-influenced forms of Trad have done with the look. I'm not so sure he would applaud where the frumpier, dumpier, wrinkled "Vineyard Vines" crowd has taken Trad. And for the record, there aren't many preppies in NYC anymore. A few working and living in Carnegie Hill maybe. 

I can illuminate my point with a story: a few years ago I attended a wedding (and delightful reception following) at a country club in the exclusive "Mountain Brook" part of Birmingham, Alabama. Trad nirvana. Lots of tweeds, tassels, gabardine trousers, repp ties, and collar pins. What I noticed is that a great many of the gents wore ROLEX watches, and at least one of them was wearing his (as he put it) "Golf Rolex," which was an old Air-King supported by a red-navy grosgrain ribbon watchband. Showy, yet still very much traditional and understated at the same time. Pure Dixie!

Whereas collar pins and Rolex watches might appear ostentatious according to the frumpier, dumpier New England take on Trad, it seems that it remains perfectly acceptable in that traditional, charming Southern society. 

Those dapper Southerners must be onto something, as nearly all the Brooks Brothers and Ben Silver models I've seen (for years) have been wearing Rolex watches. A lesson to all: the muted, outdoorsy New England take on Trad (exemplified by LL Bean) is not the only or even the best take. 

Cheers
Harris


----------



## AlanC

Why, Harris--you've become downright inclusive! If you ever make it to Mountain Brook again let me know and we'll go shopping. I'm just a short drive away.


----------



## n/a

I liked Mountain Brook. A lot. Charming. I popped into a mens' store while there and bought a couple of shirts. I recall they sold Alden and Bills Khakis.

I envy your long summers. March through early November, I would guess.

Along the Rolex line (should we start a Rolex forum?): it's the perfect watch for Anglophiles, since it was founded by a British citizen in London. I think the owners moved the headquarters moved to London later.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## AlanC

That was likely Harrison's Limited, which carries both brands. Nice shop.


----------



## Joe G.

While I'd like to see more-than-decent working conditions for all American workers, please don't compare the conditions here with the conditions in China. It's simply laughable to do so


----------



## Joe G.

While I'd like to see more-than-decent working conditions for all American workers, please don't compare the conditions here with the conditions in China. It's simply laughable to do.


> New York alone has over 4000 sweatshops, where everybody is shocked- shcoked- to discover the working conditions of these workers. And, within a few weeks, the sweatshop owners reopen somwhere nearby.
> 
> Here are some examples of sweatshops in america:
> 
> In 1990, federal labor inspectors in LA found a seven year old boy and two other children making clothes for a supplier to some of America's biggest retailers.
> 
> In 1991, NY labor inspectors stumbled upon illegal sweatshops in Manhattan's Chinatown district. In thse shops, underage Chinese immigrants wthout work permits had put in a month of sewing withoug being paid. "Training", the factory owner's called it.
> 
> In 1995, labor investigators raided a factory in El Monte, a suburb of LA, where they found a dozen workers held in virtual slavery in a compound surrounded by rzor wire.
> 
> And, a few months after all the charges leveled at Kathy Lee Gifford, inspectors raided three sweatshops in lower Manhattan. They found Chinese immigrants working up to 80 hours a week, many for under minimum wage; some workershad been stiffed for as much as ten weeks' pay.


----------



## bosthist

Joe G.:

The key is that in each case you cite, "labor investigators" found the violations and actions were taken to correct them. These cases run counter to the laws of the United States whereas in China these types of things are sanctioned by the state.

As to the trad, I will be going to my old trad store in Des Moines, Reichardt's, later this week and will report back on the offerings. When I was growing up it was the bastion of Southwick (my first good suit was a three button grey flannel Southwick), Enro, Kenneth Gordon, Robert Talbott, and other solid American clothing. It has since been bought by a mini-conglomerate that has bought several other trad stores in major Iowa cities and it will be interesting to see if it has been homogenized.

Regards,

Charles
https://bostonhistory.typepad.com


----------



## kabert

It was posted above that J. Press shirts are made by Hathaway and by Gitman Brothers. Does anyone know if these are basically Hathaway/Gitman shirts with a JPress label stuck on, or is the relationship more like the Samuelsohn-Paul Stuart relationship, where Paul Stuart provides the fabric and directs the designs and cuts, and Samuelsohn sews up the garments.


----------



## AlanC

Lately Press has been using a Canadian maker for at least some of their shirts. One would expect the maker would be following J.Press specs, but I don't know that. 

Where's our resident J Press employee when you need him?


----------



## shuman

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> Joe G.:
> 
> The key is that in each case you cite, "labor investigators" found the violations and actions were taken to correct them. These cases run counter to the laws of the United States whereas in China these types of things are sanctioned by the state.
> 
> As to the trad, I will be going to my old trad store in Des Moines, Reichardt's, later this week and will report back on the offerings. When I was growing up it was the bastion of Southwick (my first good suit was a three button grey flannel Southwick), Enro, Kenneth Gordon, Robert Talbott, and other solid American clothing. It has since been bought by a mini-conglomerate that has bought several other trad stores in major Iowa cities and it will be interesting to see if it has been homogenized.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Charles
> https://bostonhistory.typepad.com


Let me know how your visit goes. I am familiar with that store, and their history, growing up in Des Moines myself.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Lately Press has been using a Canadian maker for at least some of their shirts. One would expect the maker would be following J.Press specs, but I don't know that.
> 
> Where's our resident J Press employee when you need him?


I've ordered some Press gear that should be here soon. Will let you know about the shirts.

H


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Lately Press has been using a Canadian maker for at least some of their shirts. One would expect the maker would be following J.Press specs, but I don't know that.
> 
> Where's our resident J Press employee when you need him?
> 
> 
> 
> I've ordered some Press gear that should be here soon. Will let you know about the shirts.
> 
> H
Click to expand...

I've been admiring Daniele's posts, esp. because it's beeen fascinating to see the way those outside the States interpret or uphold (sometimes more strictly to the letter than we now do) the Amer/Trad look.

D. mentioned elsewhere the Harrington style jacket -- I remember having one from London Fog. They were a big seller in pro shops at golf clubs too.

In fact, I just saw an old film with Rock Hudson, and he was wearing a Harrrington.


----------



## hootsfriend

For my money, Mercer & Sons wins in the traditional dress shirt category. These shirts are simply wonderful and, after many wearings, they become ultra comfortable, something like a favorite pair of shoes. The Mercer & Sons shirts seem to last forever and provide ultimate value.

They are roomy and comfortable so much so that they are always mlle's choice for an away-from-home dressing gown.


----------



## johnnie

Gentlemen,

I'm sorry to say that I wasn't happy with the shirts I recently purchased from J. Press. Hence my earlier post soliciting recommendations on where to buy classic oxfords. A word to the wise: the policy of J. Press is to not permit the return of shirts that have been opened. Luckily for me, they gave me a pass and let me return the shirts. It should be noted that their return policy, as contained on the back of their sales receipt, does not mention this rule. Had I known that rule beforehand, I wouldn't have purchased the shirts in the first place. They won't even let you try them on in the store. All I can say is that they made the right decision by allowing me to return the shirts. I have purchased a number of items there these past few months (sweaters, trousers, a suit and some hose) and have been happy with all of them. Moreover, I enjoy being a patron and would like to see them remain in business. But had they not allowed me to return those shirts, they would have lost my business.

As I mentioned earlier, I look forward to contacting Mercer & Sons.

Cheers,
Tim


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by johnnie_
> 
> Gentlemen,
> 
> I'm sorry to say that I wasn't happy with the shirts I recently purchased from J. Press. Hence my earlier post soliciting recommendations on where to buy classic oxfords. A word to the wise: the policy of J. Press is to not permit the return of shirts that have been opened. Luckily for me, they gave me a pass and let me return the shirts. It should be noted that their return policy, as contained on the back of their sales receipt, does not mention this rule. Had I known that rule beforehand, I wouldn't have purchased the shirts in the first place. They won't even let you try them on in the store. All I can say is that they made the right decision by allowing me to return the shirts. I have purchased a number of items there these past few months (sweaters, trousers, a suit and some hose) and have been happy with all of them. Moreover, I enjoy being a patron and would like to see them remain in business. But had they not allowed me to return those shirts, they would have lost my business.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I look forward to contacting Mercer & Sons.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tim


It's been true in my experience as well. The Press shirts of late are abomination. Did you get the Canadian make?

The only sub-par thing I'd bought from Press in the past was a knitted polo shirt c. 1990. Horrible.


----------



## johnnie

It's been true in my experience as well. The Press shirts of late are abomination. Did you get the Canadian make?

The only sub-par thing I'd bought from Press in the past was a knitted polo shirt c. 1990. Horrible.
[/quote]

Horace,

I bought three shirts -- two royal oxfords and one standard oxford. The two royal oxfords were Canadian made, while the standard oxford was American made. In my earlier post, I mentioned that the return policy set forth on the back of the sales receipt fails to mention that you will not be permitted to return shirts that have been removed from their packages. I just took a quick look at the customer service page on Press's website to see whether the shirt policy was spelled out there. That page states that the non-return rule only applies to opened packages of underwear and hosiery and says nothing about shirts. Again, just a word to the wise. I believe we have a Press insider who contributes to this discussion group, and I would urge him to make sure that Press does a better job of disclosing their shirt policy up front so that consumers can make a more informed decision about their purchase.

Cheers,
Tim


----------



## AlanC

Well, Press has to either let you bring them back or try on in the store first. Perhaps you caught a grumpy salesmen? I believe steedappeal mentioned they were revamping the Canadian shirts, but I'd love to hear his comments.


----------



## shuman

Thats a shame. I have heard such positive things about Press. Its hard to think that they have been affected as well.


----------



## Daniele

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> I've been admiring Daniele's posts, esp. because it's beeen fascinating to see the way those outside the States interpret or uphold (sometimes more strictly to the letter than we now do) the Amer/Trad look.
> 
> D. mentioned elsewhere the Harrington style jacket -- I remember having one from London Fog. They were a big seller in pro shops at golf clubs too.
> 
> In fact, I just saw an old film with Rock Hudson, and he was wearing a Harrrington.
Click to expand...

Horace, thank you for your kind words of apreciation!

As for the London Fog Harrington, how is it like? I know that London Fog were among the most renown and sought after harringtons, together with the Baracutas, but never saw one "in flesh" (hope the term is correct..). An Italian small chain of retailers (that used to import also the Baracuta )was supposed to stock them, but as far as I know they didn't actually.
I've got two Baracuta G-9 (sky blue and bottle green) and are my favourite casual jackets, nice to wear expecially while riding my Lambretta scooter in the warm spring sun![8D]
Harringtons (or, like somebody used to call them in the sixties, the "Ivy jackets") are another of those items coming from the UK that gained their fame and allure on your side of the Ocean, also thanks to many Hollywood stars, and now declare "Classic America" at first sight....English young devotees to the Ivy style in the late 50s craved to buy them (together with R&B records) from the American GIs based in UK and attending the same jazz clubs in the London West End they used to go to. 
What I would call "clothings with a soul"...

Cheers,

Daniele


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Daniele_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> I've been admiring Daniele's posts, esp. because it's beeen fascinating to see the way those outside the States interpret or uphold (sometimes more strictly to the letter than we now do) the Amer/Trad look.
> 
> D. mentioned elsewhere the Harrington style jacket -- I remember having one from London Fog. They were a big seller in pro shops at golf clubs too.
> 
> In fact, I just saw an old film with Rock Hudson, and he was wearing a Harrrington.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Horace, thank you for your kind words of apreciation!
> 
> As for the London Fog Harrington, how is it like? I know that London Fog were among the most renown and sought after harringtons, together with the Baracutas, but never saw one "in flesh" (hope the term is correct..). An Italian small chain of retailers (that used to import also the Baracuta )was supposed to stock them, but as far as I know they didn't actually.
> I've got two Baracuta G-9 (sky blue and bottle green) and are my favourite casual jackets, nice to wear expecially while riding my Lambretta scooter in the warm spring sun![8D]
> Harringtons (or, like somebody used to call them in the sixties, the "Ivy jackets") are another of those items coming from the UK that gained their fame and allure on your side of the Ocean, also thanks to many Hollywood stars, and now declare "Classic America" at first sight....English young devotees to the Ivy style in the late 50s craved to buy them (together with R&B records) from the American GIs based in UK and attending the same jazz clubs in the London West End they used to go to.
> What I would call "clothings with a soul"...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Daniele
Click to expand...

Daniele: interesting. It would seem that AmerTrad then, in your experience, really benefitted from this cross-cultural connections. It's funny because one would be inclined to characterize it as something static or marginal or inbred or whatnot, but that wasn't or isn't I think, really the case.

as for the London Fog -- it was good jacket as I remember. I bought it in a small mens shop, I can't even remember where now, and it was the antithesis of something horrible happening in the US a few years later, which was the Members Only jacket.

I don't know if London Fog is still around, but their single breasted raincoat was a nice piece too.


----------



## Horace

Gentlemen,

Previously, I'd posted a message concerning John Helmer, the haberdasher in Portland Oregon, who sells some good trad togs both in his shop and on the internet. Browsing for something else, I came across this article, that while slightly dated, might be of interest to you. I couldn't resist posting it under this thread, because this thread has become so unwieldly!

PREPare Yourself
We've seen the future, and it's wearing your grandfather's 
Brooks Brothers suit.

BY MAC MONTANDON 
[email protected]

While giving her acceptance speech at this year's Academy Awards, Best Actress-winner Gwyneth Paltrow was a blubbery mess. What was particularly galling about the slight thespian's sobbing performance was that she carried on like that in a Ralph Lauren dress.

Still, Gwyneth's carrying on was no distraction from the real message: Ralph rules.

Indeed, not since the the 1980 publication of The Official Preppy Handbook has Ralph Lauren--and his preppy brethren who manufacture Izod, Tretorn and Southwick suits--been more at the fore of consumers' collective consciousness.

Not only is the preppy look popping up on national and even Portland fashion fronts, but familiar preppy characteristics--simplicity, quality, wholesomeness--are being appropriated by advertisers and headline writers as well.

Preppy is back. But did it ever really go away?

This query is probably unanswerable, for part of the appeal of preppiness has always been its unannounced steadiness, its reticence to shout about itself. In that way, its return to prominence is a welcome change from the bodice-busting, look-at-me tawdriness exhibited in a '90s world costumed by Aaron Spelling.

One possible answer is that in fashion, as in many industries, style is cyclical. "New" looks are constantly cropping up in response to "old" ones. Thus, the revival of preppiness is merely a reaction to the scruffy, unkempt looks we've whizzed through since the mid-'80s: punk, grunge, slacker.

But this idea assumes preppies are even tuned in to fashion hype. In fact, those now slipping into a pair of straight-legged white trousers or pulling on a knit shirt with the unassumingly hip alligator stitched to the breast are probably unaware that they are part of a movement that dares not speak its name.

"I think many of our customers would say we're probably a preppy store, and I don't discourage that," says John Helmer III. In 1982, much in the way the preppy look is handed down from parent to child, he acquired his clothing store from his father. John Helmer Jr. had purchased the store (named John Helmer, naturally) from John Senior in 1955. "Many of our customers are also anti-brand, anti-label," says Helmer, "so I don't promote us as a preppy store."

This middle-of-the-road positioning has allowed a shop first opened as a haberdashery in 1921 to survive in a business overrun by myriad companies seeking to cash in on a fashion-mad world.

Selling hats, oxford shirts, bow ties, leisure wear, and soft-shouldered, three-button sport coats made by Hickey-Freeman, Corbin and Southwick, John Helmer has seen its sales increase steadily over the past few years. Southwick, the outfitter that has clothed such icons of America as Fred Astaire, Clark Gable and Cary Grant, as well as presidents Reagan, Carter, Clinton and Bush, is a particularly successful line at JH.

"Preppy is an accepted look," Helmer says simply.

The look has been accepted by enough people that this month Polo Ralph Lauren opened a 45,000-square-foot flagship store in London. That store, at 1 New Bond Street, arrives on the heels of the company's new 25,000-square-foot showroom that opened in February in Milan. On March 1 Polo announced plans to buy the Canadian-based retailer Club Monaco Incorporated for $52.5 million.

As Ralph's mallet strikes, the fashion world takes notice.

Confirming Helmer's belief that Southerners are even more steadfastly preppy than the notorious East Coast Ivies, W magazine's January issue included a pictorial called "Homecoming," featuring "sorority style, prom queens and kings, cool cheerleaders and great letter sweaters...deep in the heart of Texas." The first page of the spread pictures a corn-fed blonde, dressed in a light blue silk Ralph Lauren dress, pearls and a plain Club Monaco cardigan, glowing in homecoming-queen delirium.

Sports Illustrated claimed on its Feb. 22 cover that Duke's men's basketball players are "Preppies No More." Using the phrase to distance this year's team of urban hipsters from previous teams of mainly white-collar athlete-nerds, SI entered the media fray of preppy consciousness.

Not to be left out, in March The New Yorker took measure of Gatsbian clothiers Brooks Brothers. Enumerating the ways in which the once-grandfatherly manufacturer is repositioning itself (not the least of which is by opening a new store at fashion's epicenter: the corner of Fifth Avenue and 53rd Street), the magazine wrote of "the old preppy favorite" going "after a new look." The Brooks Brothers idea of a revamped look? Shirts in colors other than blue and white.

There are further signs that a substantial preppy movement is just beginning to swell. Also in March, a story in Elle heralded the recent triumph of wholesomeness, lightness and sincerity over irony, affect and cynicism. Citing everything from the healthy exuberance of the Gap's "Khakis Swing" ads to the increasing popularity of soft pinks and blues among designers, Elle observed that even Hollywood is experiencing a pendulum shift. Models and starlets are moving away from colder (waif) and disheveled (slacker) looks toward a modest climate wherein it is OK to be well adjusted.

The book A Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue and the film Never Been Kissed are products of this climate. In keeping with this trend, Max Fischer, the hero of the recent movie Rushmore, is rarely seen without his trusty blue blazer, white oxford, tie and khakis.

In a March story on the state of jeans manufacturer Levi's, The New York Times Magazine cornered trendsetting 15- to 24-year-olds at the mall and discovered the ultimate bellwether: The baggy "gangster look" is disappearing in favor of, you guessed it, a more tailored, preppy style.

Helmer, for one, thinks preppy's return to prominence represents a collective plea for simplicity in a frenetic age. "You look at the stock market going crazy, and you see people more willing to take chances," the 42-year-old with boyish good looks says. "But then there's a nervousness there. People aren't sure how long it can last, so they're inclined to go back to a more stable look."


----------



## onthelistbaby

I think that if everyone tries really hard we can make this a six month long post.


----------



## n/a

Horace, are you a regular customer of Mr. Helmer's?

Another one I found:



Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Horace

Harris: 

no I am not. I've just bought a few items from him that I was interersted in. But I always love to search out trad on the 'net.

So if anyone has suggestions for other small little trad shops on the net (other than the usual suspects), please post.

I have no idea how well the shop does in Portland, Oregon, but I am always glad when old shops like this are still around. And I'd rather throw my few clothing dollars their way than any national chain.


----------



## zignatius

John Helmer and his son (also John) have a good thing going and a large part of their appeal is their involvement with the community and how they never seem to forget a face. I can't say for sure, but my hunch is that their large selection of hats makes them a viable and thriving biz. It's pretty much the only place in Portland where you can shop for quality hats of all kinds. The store itself isn't all that big (but they're always ready to make a special order via Southwick, Corbin. etc.), but the location is excellent. I have a lot of respect (and gratitude) for the Helmers for hanging on ... they've survived the closing of three trad competitors who -- in my opinion offered greater selection in shirtings and suits and trousers. If there are any trad posters on this forum from Portland, you'll remember Richards Ltd., Alports and Sichel's. Richards -- the most polished of the group -- hung on until about 1990. 

Obviously, I try to support Helmers as much as possible. But my buying is more as a "replacer" rather than a "hunter." If that makes any sense.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by zignatius_
> 
> John Helmer and his son (also John) have a good thing going and a large part of their appeal is their involvement with the community and how they never seem to forget a face. I can't say for sure, but my hunch is that their large selection of hats makes them a viable and thriving biz. It's pretty much the only place in Portland where you can shop for quality hats of all kinds. The store itself isn't all that big (but they're always ready to make a special order via Southwick, Corbin. etc.), but the location is excellent. I have a lot of respect (and gratitude) for the Helmers for hanging on ... they've survived the closing of three trad competitors who -- in my opinion offered greater selection in shirtings and suits and trousers. If there are any trad posters on this forum from Portland, you'll remember Richards Ltd., Alports and Sichel's. Richards -- the most polished of the group -- hung on until about 1990.
> 
> Obviously, I try to support Helmers as much as possible. But my buying is more as a "replacer" rather than a "hunter." If that makes any sense.


I haven't really thought this out but...

I have a feeling that the department store or chain store or weird conglomeration of shops in a sort of mall that you see on the west coast and mid-west especially killed the small haberdasher more than changing fashion.

That is, not the department store itself necessarily, but these sorts of groups of stores together that begun to pop up in the sprawl that followed suburbia and decay of the inner-city.

I mean, there are probably many reasons for the decline of the town haberdasher, (and perhaps they were replaced in some sense by the proliferation of these Brooks Bros. stores in malls), and I bet some of that reason for decline had to do with shifting demographics and I'd be willing to puzzle out the rest of it here.


----------



## Markus

*Brooks Brothers; In Many Areas, the Last Place to Shop*

I don't know if anyone will find my observations interesting, but it really struck me lately what transformation has taken place in the Malls of America. Two recent experiences have got me thinking.

First, the paucity of decent quality men's clothing (I'm thinking quality basic clothing (shirts, shoes, suits, jackets, since this is, after all, an American Traditional thread) seen in the major department stores after the holidays. This included local visits to Saks, Lord & Taylor and Neimann-Markus. Yes, they had Armani and Burberry, but sizes and inventory were actually fairly modest. And the clothes just looked too "of the moment" to appeal to me.

The second experience was a recent trip to the middle of nowhere, Iowa. In the middle of nowhere there was a BB outlet store.

My conclusion is that in its current configuration, for the vast majority of men in this country, Brooks Brothers has basically got the Mens traditional clothing market about cornered. Yes, there a few exceptions, where you can get some items that are not too bad. But if a person is looking for a decent, basic, wool suit, selection of cotton shirts that don't look like "made for this years college freshman" (with those horrid stripes), decent shoes and reliable taste, then there doesn't seem to be anyone who can compete with BB.

The selection in the department stores mentioned above was, to my taste, pitiful. If you don't want to wear a crummy logo on your chest from Nautica, Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger or the store label, you're out of luck. And somehow, execution on shirts and shoes and even simple things like belts falls short. There were very few shoes for sale in the stores I visited that did not have a molded rubber sole.

Contrast this with BB, where, despite the occasional criticisms you'll read on this board, still manages to sell decent shoes, well made 100% cotton shirts, wool suits and jackets, et.

Just thinking here...

Markus


----------



## n/a

Markus, those of us who are lucky enough to live in or near NYC are bleseed indeed--with a couple of Brooks stores and J. Press. While I suppose you're probably right about Brooks outlet stores (especially in the rural Midwest), one can always order from a Brooks or J. Press catalog. Or Orvis or L.L. Bean, for that matter. That is to say, one need not resort to malls and outlet malls.
Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Markus

Harris,

My friend, I was making a different point (and I realize the point may not be worth making...)

Yes, for those who live in the NYC area, or close to one of the remaining trad shops, or are willing to go to the trouble of ordering via catalog or the internet, there are other options.

What I had intended in my post was to simply note that, for Mr. Average-American-who-never-looks-at-Ask-Andy and does not distinguish American Trad from Italian or English, Brooks has very astutely positioned themselves as virtually the only recognizable "brand" throughout the mass of american Malls. Kind of surprising and unexpected, to me.

Yes, I realize there are some other options--Men's Wearhouse, Big and Tall shops, a few Nordstroms here and there and a few other specialist retailers, Filenes's, etc.

But I expect you'll agree that the classic american department stores where, in the past, one could find a decent selection of basic goods of quality are almost gone. At least they are where I live in St. Louis. Ok, I realize that for many shoppers, a Tommy Hilfiger suit or Chaps jacket might seem to be just great and they might not find anything amiss in the big, once-proud department stores. But for those who long for a _Haberdasher_ in the classic sense of the word and who do not live near San Francisco, Chicago, NYC or a few other big cities, there isn't anywhere else to go. My point was simply that this occurred like a big AHA! to me...

Respectfully,

Markus


----------



## zignatius

As far as the large retailers go, Brooks' biggest competitor is probably Nordstrom, which extends into non-trad stuff (in the Pacific Northwest anyway). But yes, mid-market dept stores (May Co. and Marshall Fields and Macy's) just don't cut it ... but I'm not so sure they ever really did. Did they?

I'm not sure if I'm bothered by the lack of choices during the last 15 years. Internet helps. And there's always the phone. Ties -- I've always maintained -- should probably be purchased in person unless it's a specific repp stripe or something. Anyway, trad or not, I think the under-30 crowd has grown up with Banana Republic and J Crew, which sadly have replaced the old "Men's Stores." 

I've limited my "vendors" to Brooks, Mercer, Cable Car, Nordstrom (Talbott neckwear) and -- if i'm seeking a Southwick product -- John Helmer. (And I have no problem buying a sweater from J Crew now and again.) If I'm back East, I try to make it to J Press, but it's not a huge priority. There's also Murray's Toggery or LaCoste in Europe and other specialty stores, which make for nice travel purchases. (BTW, Ben Silver is conspicuously not mentioned; their ties don't dimple right and everything's over-priced.) 

One more thing: Any thoughts about Jos. Banks? My only experience with them was with a pair of tuxedo pants about 16 years ago. They were nice. They seem like they'd be a good choice for trousers. 

apologies for the ramble.


----------



## crs

> quote:_Originally posted by zignatius_
> 
> As far as the large retailers go, Brooks' biggest competitor is probably Nordstrom, which extends into non-trad stuff (in the Pacific Northwest anyway). But yes, mid-market dept stores (May Co. and Marshall Fields and Macy's) just don't cut it ... but I'm not so sure they ever really did. Did they?


I bought clothes only at Nordstrom when I lived in California in the 1980s and early 1990s. I moved back east at the end of 1993 and have shopped at mostly Brooks since. The quality at Nordstrom has declined a little, from what I see, although it's still my favorite department store. In the 1980s on their label they had very nice button-down dress shirts and extremely heavy khakis, which I have kept although they no longer quite fit. (I still have hope!) I also have several dozen ties from those years that are on par with Brooks Brothers'.

I recently went to Macy's because I had a gift card. I'm not as fussy as some people here, but I seriously had trouble finding anything tempting. I was about to give up on the men's clothing and shoes and head to housewares. But I was short on time and just grabbed some Levis jeans so I could be done with it.


----------



## tom22

Macys in the 80s was OK. I remember shelves of Hathaway shirts when Hathaway was still decent. Well, they became decent again in the 90s but they
did
have a substantial lull. They were competing with Bloomingdales for a while in the early 80s but that's a story from long ago. Today it's not so good. Nordstrom's has filled the niche. Surprised they haven't taken a shot at NYC.


----------



## kitonbrioni

> quote:_Originally posted by Markus_
> 
> *Brooks Brothers; In Many Areas, the Last Place to Shop*
> 
> My conclusion is that in its current configuration, for the vast majority of men in this country, Brooks Brothers has basically got the Mens traditional clothing market about cornered. Yes, there a few exceptions, where you can get some items that are not too bad. But if a person is looking for a decent, basic, wool suit, selection of cotton shirts that don't look like "made for this years college freshman" (with those horrid stripes), decent shoes and reliable taste, then there doesn't seem to be anyone who can compete with BB.


My only issue with Brooks Brothers is that the prices seem very high for the quality.


----------



## Brooksfan

> quote:_Originally posted by Markus_
> 
> *Brooks Brothers; In Many Areas, the Last Place to Shop*
> 
> I don't know if anyone will find my observations interesting, but it really struck me lately what transformation has taken place in the Malls of America. Two recent experiences have got me thinking.
> 
> First, the paucity of decent quality men's clothing (I'm thinking quality basic clothing (shirts, shoes, suits, jackets, since this is, after all, an American Traditional thread) seen in the major department stores after the holidays. This included local visits to Saks, Lord & Taylor and Neimann-Markus. Yes, they had Armani and Burberry, but sizes and inventory were actually fairly modest. And the clothes just looked too "of the moment" to appeal to me.
> 
> The second experience was a recent trip to the middle of nowhere, Iowa. In the middle of nowhere there was a BB outlet store.
> 
> My conclusion is that in its current configuration, for the vast majority of men in this country, Brooks Brothers has basically got the Mens traditional clothing market about cornered. Yes, there a few exceptions, where you can get some items that are not too bad. But if a person is looking for a decent, basic, wool suit, selection of cotton shirts that don't look like "made for this years college freshman" (with those horrid stripes), decent shoes and reliable taste, then there doesn't seem to be anyone who can compete with BB.
> 
> The selection in the department stores mentioned above was, to my taste, pitiful. If you don't want to wear a crummy logo on your chest from Nautica, Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger or the store label, you're out of luck. And somehow, execution on shirts and shoes and even simple things like belts falls short. There were very few shoes for sale in the stores I visited that did not have a molded rubber sole.
> 
> Contrast this with BB, where, despite the occasional criticisms you'll read on this board, still manages to sell decent shoes, well made 100% cotton shirts, wool suits and jackets, et.
> 
> Just thinking here...
> 
> Markus


----------



## Brooksfan

I agree with Markus' comments about Brooks and would add that in the three years since they were bought (rescued) from Marks & Spencer, the merchandise has shown steady improvement. The stores, at least in Chicago, are worth visiting again and each visit shows progress. That being said, it's not likely we'll see them go back to where people of my age remember them from our youth. I'd love it if they still had the real three-button sack suit with plain-front pants as the "default" setting but knowing that I can get it will have to do. This is my first post as I stumbled across this forum looking for information on Alden shoes. I have spent several hours over the past few weeks reading the comments on American Traditional clothing and it's interesting to see there is so much depth of belief on the topic. I'd begun to accept that I should just move on and be happy with two-button jackets and pleated pants but there's a reason this style prevails.


----------



## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by zignatius_
> 
> (BTW, Ben Silver is conspicuously not mentioned; their ties don't dimple right and everything's over-priced.)


My newly acquired Ben Silver grenadine gives me one of the best dimples of any tie I have. I agree Silver isn't cheap, but the outlet section often offers some great deals including non-Ben Silver labeled goods if that's your preference (eg, Drake's!).


----------



## n/a

Brooksfan, welcome. Close observers of Brooks have rejoiced in the improvement over the course of the last three or four years. I remember when I noticed it: back in fall 2000, when Brooks featured a 3-button sack navy/grey herringbone sportcoat. I think it was around $600. I hadn't seen anything like that in a Brooks catalog for years.

Markus, I understand your point, which is well made. You're probably right that among the masses who aspire to traditional dress but don't have access to Press or The Andover Shop, Brooks--particularly the outlet version--remains the standard-bearer. To be sure, Brooks has filled a void.

I would have no reservation about shopping (regularly) at Brooks outlets if the floor room stock consisted of "left overs" from the stores in the major cities. Those of you who recall the Brooks outlet stores from the early 90s remember when this was very much the case way back when. A thing to behold. 

Sadly, I hear that 90% of the outlet store stock is made just for the outlet--cheaply, probably by poorly-paid people in Jamaica and Malaysia. Not the same quality; definitely a different label.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## rojo

I think youâ€™re on to something, Markus. If an American male wants to try on a relatively conservative suit or sport coat, avoiding the trendy items like five-button jackets, Brooks Brothers probably has a store nearby. For these customers, Brooks now serves a steady diet of spread-collared trim fit no-iron shirts, 4-inch wide ties, darted 2-button jackets, and pleated trousers. For us longtime customers who, during the worst of the Marks & Spencer period, kept trying to return to our old home like surviving drones after the destruction of the hive, the old Brooks Brothers look is still available: plain front trousers, crew neck Shetlands, 3-button sack coats, and the original polo collar oxford shirt. This is a viable marriage of new and old and a viable business plan, unlike the excesses of Marks & Spencer (purple dress shirts and store openings with nightclub performers).


----------



## Markus

As Am/Trad fanatics it is routine to disparage the BB "classic" offerings as not being hard-core-trad enough. For example, distinguishing between Italian tweeds vs. Scottish tweeds. Same with sweaters.

But what I think is all the more remarkable is the fact that the new owners recognized (and apparently valued) the tremendous amount of goodwill and brand recognition the Brooks Brothers name holds in the American consumer's consciousness. And now they are no longer coasting, they are trying to maintain the value of the brand. For many consumers who have never thought much about where they shop and what they buy, there are now BB stores in malls where someone who would have never seen a "downtown" location can see what all the fuss is about.

I'm not trying to advocate for Brooks here or ascribe any altruistic motive to their business plan. It just struck me as noteworthy that, after the smoke and dust from the collapse of Men's clothing has cleared, after a decade of "business casual" triggering the collapse of many well regarded vendors, Brooks is the last man standing. 

It could have been so much worse. I'm just saying I appreciate that.

Markus


----------



## tom22

Did anyone notice how the shetlands disappeared within days of being put on sale? Nary a one to be found in the suburban stores I've been to in January. The slaking of a long held thirst.


----------



## n/a

They disappeared mighty fast. I was hoping to find the hunter green and that sort of brownish colored one. Neither remained on the shelves. Maybe next year. 
Cheers,
Harris


----------



## n/a

But wait. A few do remain--"on line":
https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ection_Id=310&Product_Id=843331&Parent_Id=305

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## crs

I was invited back to my boarding school to talk to students about my line of work and went there today. Wore Brooks khakis, Brooks button-down white shirt, Brooks blazer, repp tie that I bought in the 1980s at Nordstrom, new Allen-Edmonds loafers. I looked like most of the male teachers, and except for the tie and blazer, not unlike many of the students. I was told that a few years ago they changed the rules and students are no longer permitted to wear jeans or sneakers to classes. A rather Trad-looking environment, even moreso than it was when I attended in the 1970s.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> But wait. A few do remain--"on line":
> https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ection_Id=310&Product_Id=843331&Parent_Id=305
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


Gentlemen: an astute series of recent posts. And I think Markus is right. I was sort of nudging toward that observation myself and I'm glad that he did my thinking for me: Brooks is sort of, for many, the aribiter of an traditional American style whether we like it or not.

How are these Shetlands? Quality? Sizing?

I'm not complaining about the cheap price, but even at $79.95 it seems a little inexpensive, given that the dollar is so weak and demand for the raw materials have been so strong. I don't know.

Still, I think I'll order one in Navy. Can't go wrong really for the price.

Jimmy from Duke started that thread that gave us those several links to the Shetlands. There's this place, shetlands direct in the UK, that is a clearinghouse for over-runs. Costs are about GBP 14-19 for your basic shetland crewneck. Not bad really, given that they appear to be well-constructed. I have yet to place an order but postage shouldn't be that bad given that they're fairly light.

Harris: I see Hunter green in M and XL and that color is looking pretty good. By the way, Press has some nice Hunter green grosgrain belts.

Horace.


----------



## n/a

I think the remaining pink in a size large is crying out to be purchased by one of us. Who will be first?

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## rojo

The sweaters must be going fast. I canâ€™t make the Brooks Brothers site show me any color in Medium or any size in Pink. All I get is:
Small in Orange, Burgundy, Hunter
Large in Orange, Navy, Sunshine
XL in Hunter and Sunshine
XXL in Natural and Sunshine

My theory is that Medium sold out first because women are once again helping themselves to the menâ€™s items from Brooks.


----------



## guyfromboston

The Andover Shop is having their winter sale, and Shetlands are 40% off ($59 versus $99). Better quality than Brooks, plus you'll be supporting a real Trad icon that hasn't sold out to fashion trends.


----------



## n/a

guyfromboston: Do you get up to the shop in Andover often? I hear they're stocking Irish Poplin ties by Elliot, which is Atkinsons major competitor. Great ties. Also one of the few places in the country that stocks grosgrain watchbands by Leatherman.
Cheers,
Harris


----------



## guyfromboston

Actually, I've never been to the shop in Andover. I live in Back Bay (Boston), so I go to the shop here on Clarendon, or I go over to the shop in Cambridge (near JPress, which is convenient during winter sale time). Boston has more off the rack jackets, Cambridge has more seasoned tailors. I'll have to get up to Andover one of these days and check out those ties.


----------



## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I hear they're stocking Irish Poplin ties by Elliot, which is Atkinsons major competitor. Great ties.


I didn't know that anyone made Irish poplin ties other than Atkinsons. I always assumed it was sort of a house fabric with them. Interesting. I have striped Atkinsons that I quite like.


----------



## tom22

re the shetlands: I have asumed that Andover and JPress offered the same product. Certainly the price point is the same. Bwetter than Brooks. I'm not so sure. A bit different but I find it hard to justify the price differential. And I've owned bot he Pres and Brooks shetlands. This year's offerings from Brooks were Ok. There were years back in the day when the sweaters were thicker (The day being the 80s through I guess 1990 or so). But these were as thick as some of my old sweateres which still look good. I have the hunter from 15 years ago but I hope next year the wine color will be oferede. This year's burgundy had too much black. WEe will never see numbered sizes whuich disappeared from Brooks in the late *0s and from JPress in the late 90s. Sigh. But truth to tell that isn't a big issue. This year Brooks put the sweaters out on tables. But I long for the days when they offered a wall of sweaters you could pull from the shelf. They went for $48 circa 1988. On sale the day before Christmas for under 40 and at some point got down to the low 30s. But Brooks must know they had a hit this year. I expect more colors next year. Sorry I missed out on the pink this timew around. But I still have the deep pink cable sweater JPress offered 5 years ago. Women have threatened my life to get hold of it.


----------



## maxnharry

My navy Brooks shetland arrived today and I like it. Well constructed, good material, great price.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> re the shetlands: I have asumed that Andover and JPress offered the same product. Certainly the price point is the same. Bwetter than Brooks. I'm not so sure. A bit different but I find it hard to justify the price differential. And I've owned bot he Pres and Brooks shetlands. This year's offerings from Brooks were Ok. There were years back in the day when the sweaters were thicker (The day being the 80s through I guess 1990 or so). But these were as thick as some of my old sweateres which still look good. I have the hunter from 15 years ago but I hope next year the wine color will be oferede. This year's burgundy had too much black. WEe will never see numbered sizes whuich disappeared from Brooks in the late *0s and from JPress in the late 90s. Sigh. But truth to tell that isn't a big issue. This year Brooks put the sweaters out on tables. But I long for the days when they offered a wall of sweaters you could pull from the shelf. They went for $48 circa 1988. On sale the day before Christmas for under 40 and at some point got down to the low 30s. But Brooks must know they had a hit this year. I expect more colors next year. Sorry I missed out on the pink this timew around. But I still have the deep pink cable sweater JPress offered 5 years ago. Women have threatened my life to get hold of it.


Good point. I had a cable knit shetland, sized 42 from 1988.

It finally had so many rips and tears and holes that I had to discard it. But I did proudly wear it through part of this winter, even sans elbow material.


----------



## tom22

Clearly Brooks is on the right track, on a signature item. I can live with the 'large' sizing. The quality is comparable to 15 years ago. I can vouch for this. Prep schools everywhere: Rejoice!


----------



## n/a

No doubt that Brooks hit a home run with the shetlands. Complete with saddle sleeves. 

AlanC, Atkinsons is the best-known of the Irish Poplin makers, but Elliot makes a nice tie. Call the shop in Andover for details. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I think the remaining pink in a size large is crying out to be purchased by one of us. Who will be first?
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


I saw that one. It would look stunning with khakis, white button down and grey, brown or green herringbone tweed jacket.


----------



## n/a

I hope one of our very own Trads among these boards was the one to "swoop in" and snag the very last pink shetland. 
Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Trilby

The quality isn't as good as the Brooks and they're not as authentic, but I'm quite pleased with a couple of lambswool, Shetland style, sweaters that I picked up from J. Crew this season. Nice loud colours (orange and coral pink) and an absolute bargain.


----------



## shuman

I bought the same two, orange and coral pink/salmon colored. I love them both, although I bought them a bit too large. Great for layering. I'll wait and see about the quality, although I love the raglan sleeves and soft hand. I have yet to try one from Andover shop, but these J.Crew ones were hard to pass up at $20 apiece. I am considering the green apple color also...[]


----------



## n/a

I saw those, but didn't care for the (rather unique) knitting of the shoulders. I much prefer the old Brooks/Andover Shop saddle shoulder. I wonder if the Press Shaggy Dog ever featured the classic saddle sholder.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## crs

There were two powder blue Shetlands, medium and XXL, remaining today at the BB in Paramus, N.J. And many women's Shetlands.


----------



## Brooksfan

The J. Press Shaggy Dog sweaters did have saddle shoulders many years ago. So long ago that the one I just gave away (patches of four shades of blue and white) was purchased on a vacation trip in San Francisco. I know they closed that store in the early 80's so it must have been late 70's? 

If anyone's interested I have J. Press's catalogs for the last ten years-my wife threw out the really old ones in 1994. Also have Cable Car's catalogs going back to 1994 and it's amazing to track the price spread between Press and Cable Car. I was looking through them the other day and realized that after all these years there really are only a handful of items that delineate a traditional wardrobe and it makes sense to me to pay more, enjoy it every time you wear it, and then replace it than to buy inexpensive and beat yourself up every time you put it on.


----------



## n/a

Speaking of trad, the Harris Tweeds at Orvis are now on sale for under $200.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## shuman

Yes, but the Icy Supercords that I've had my eye on havent budged! Arggghhh!


----------



## Emma

Messieurs,

let me step out from the bushes to participate shortly in this discussion. I read this fine site every now and then and this is my first post, as I feel somewhat an outsider being European female Master's student. Greetings to all of you! 

I found this thread last autumn around the same time as an article I consider to be a hidden gem in the Net, namely a little survey published in 1962, done in several U.S. colleges and effectively describing what young male students were wearing and when. Very pre-Preppy Handbook, isn't it?

It seems old MIT's The Tech's have been scanned and worked to PDF-files and text-files. There have been problems in the process, most annoying one making the very centre of the journal impossible to read. Currently pages of volumes are located in web-directories where one can navigate freely. As far as I know that is all, which explains why the information is quite hard to find. (I myself bumped into this when searching info about loden coats. Mine is blue, thanks for asking.) But there you go:








If any of you readers have anything to do with the MIT, please send my regards to your archivists that it is a very nice job they have done and are doing with "e-The Tech" as it seems they are renewing the system. My vote for this article to be the first one of The Tech to be re-PDF:d and better indexed.

I am most certain many of you will find this article as interesting as I did, being a little proud as the first one to recommend it in this fascinating thread.

BR,
Em

PS. may I ask, hands up all of you who didn't read further after the second passage, but clicked the links straight away


----------



## maxnharry

Brilliant!

Thanks Emma! Welcome and no I didn't skip ahead to the links.


----------



## shuman

Welcome Emma! Nice links. Very interesting that this was about the time of the Dacron explosion in clothing. Not for me, as I'm afraid I'd break out in hives without natural fibers. Great for the mass marketing to consumers who want easy care.


----------



## Horace

Very interesting set of articles. Thanks for post. The good old days when students knew how to dress. But I noted that even they who were interviewed or quoted in the article made a concious assertion of their informality.


----------



## Brooksfan

Harris-I've been reading the Forum for a couple of weeks now and you seem to be one of the most ardent traditional advocates. 

What's your opinion of the observation that for many of us, a slightly darted, two-button natural shoulder jacket and double reverse pleated pant is actually much more flattering than the three-button undarted jacket and plain pants.

I've grudgingly come to accept the truth of this statement after looking at the identical fabric in both suit models. In a similar vein I've gradually begun to add some plain collar dress shirts and having resisted for years, conceded the point to my wife that I do look better without the button-down with a suit. 

Do you know anyone who will make oxford (not pinpoint) shirts with a straight collar? Thanks.


----------



## n/a

I remain committed to the old sack suits and coats of old and to plain/flat front trousers. I require neither pleats nor darts in order to feel comfortable. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Brooksfan_
> 
> What's your opinion of the observation that for many of us, a slightly darted, two-button natural shoulder jacket and double reverse pleated pant is actually much more flattering than the three-button undarted jacket and plain pants.
> [\quote]
> 
> I prefer this cut but with forward pleat. I do like however the Press cut too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know anyone who will make oxford (not pinpoint) shirts with a straight collar? Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if Mercer can or will.
Click to expand...


----------



## n/a

My decision to stick with oxford cloth button-downs is almost entirely practical, or, to be more precise, economical. 

I wash them at home--about eight or nine at a time--by simply throwing them into the washer (gentle cycle). Then, I place them on hangers and let them drip-dry or throw them in the dryer for about five or six minutes and then hang to drip-dry. This means that over the course of years and decades, I save a ton of money that others pay their local dry-cleaner. Also, the shirts last MUCH longer. I have a couple of 20-yr. old Brooks oxfords that are just now beginning to fray a bit. 

Yes, this approach results in a slightly wrinkled or "puckered" (or "dimpled") appearance. But oxford cloths are supposed to look this way, in my opinion. I'm not sure I see the point in a stiffly starched oxford cloth shirt. Ditto, by the way, for chinos, which look their best when they're slightly frayed and wrinkled.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## shuman

And you wear them to work this way, slightly dimpled? Just curious what area you work in to allow this? Business Casual?


----------



## AlanC

Okay, someone bid on this and put me out of my misery (it's my size). I'm trying to be good and stay away from ebay auctions:



The seller has improperly buttoned the 3rd button, of course. NFI, etc.


----------



## johnnie

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Okay, someone bid on this and put me out of my misery (it's my size). I'm trying to be good and stay away from ebay auctions:
> 
> The seller has improperly buttoned the 3rd button, of course. NFI, etc.


The seller of the jacket referred to by Alan C is also selling the following:

Can this really be from Press? Double-breasted "Avengers" style???

Cheers,
Tim


----------



## Raurell

I used to wear almost only Brooks Brothers. Especially the Alden loafers and the stripped shirts. Now the only thing I wear from Bsquared are boxer shorts. This was when I was in school - had to wear a tie to school.

Now I have moved from American Traditional to European clothes. I find the fit is better and I like the fabrics. 

I live in NYC and American Traditional feels like uptown ( grew up there) and now I live downtown. 

If I lived in the country ( like where I went to school ) I would probably be more American traditional.





Miguel Likes Fine 
Clothes


----------



## n/a

Yes, even to work. I'm lucky that my workplace is dominated by like-minded people. Lots of Brooks and J. Press. I wear a suit four out of five days; the fifth I'll wear a sportcoat with wool flannels or gabardines. If it's a weekend workday, a sportcoat or blazer with chinos. Always a button-down oxford. Never starched. Last year a colleague of mine wore a french-cuffed, spread-collared number. We gave him h e l l about it for months.
Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Markus

Harris, my friend,

You said " Always a button-down oxford. Never starched."

Do you mean even with your suits? And I'm assuming this is also with a necktie?

Sign me "curious",

Markus


----------



## rojo

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Last year a colleague of mine wore a french-cuffed, spread-collared number. We gave him h e l l about it for months.


I like an office that maintains standards. Are you accepting rÃ©sumÃ©s?


----------



## crs

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Yes, this approach results in a slightly wrinkled or "puckered" (or "dimpled") appearance. But oxford cloths are supposed to look this way, in my opinion.


Harris, I used to just iron them without starch. Fifteen years ago, a coworker asked me, "Do you have your shirts professionally wrinkled or do you wrinkle them yourself?"

I began sending shirts out, wasn't happy with that, and started ironing them myself again, but with starch. Even experimented with Brooks non-irons, but they look and feel artificial ... and don't last very long, either. So how do you iron without starch and have them look presentable?


----------



## n/a

I don't iron them. Never have. I remove them from the washer, place them on hangers, and wait for them to drip-dry. Sometimes I'll dry them for a few minutes before hanging them to drip-dry. No starch, no iron. The thicker the oxford cloth, the better this approach works. 

Somebody asked about ties. Yes, I wear a tie every day of the week. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## 16128

The no-ironing-required shirts, in my opinion, have an odd look and feel. I have bought a few for business wear but am not happy with the texture.

Oxford cloth, conversely, is not meant to have too much starchy polish. One thing I really dislike is seeing a too-stiff collar on a button-down oxford shirt (and yet, one does see this.) 

I'm another woman chiming in... my husband likes American trad clothing but cannot really be bothered to do any shopping himself, except for suits. I pick out the shirts and accessories, so thanks to all for a very informative (and entertaining) thread.


----------



## shuman

> quote:_Originally posted by johnnie_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Okay, someone bid on this and put me out of my misery (it's my size). I'm trying to be good and stay away from ebay auctions:
> 
> The seller has improperly buttoned the 3rd button, of course. NFI, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> The seller of the jacket referred to by Alan C is also selling the following:
> 
> Can this really be from Press? Double-breasted "Avengers" style???
> 
> Cheers,
> Tim
Click to expand...

These jackets are beautiful! Those of you more familiar with Press than myself, are these indicative of the color and pattern/softness that the current Press offers? (Too bad I wasnt about half my size...)


----------



## Literide

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by johnnie_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Okay, someone bid on this and put me out of my misery (it's my size). I'm trying to be good and stay away from ebay auctions:
> 
> The seller has improperly buttoned the 3rd button, of course. NFI, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> The seller of the jacket referred to by Alan C is also selling the following:
> 
> Can this really be from Press? Double-breasted "Avengers" style???
> 
> Cheers,
> Tim
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> These jackets are beautiful! Those of you more familiar with Press than myself, are these indicative of the color and pattern/softness that the current Press offers? (Too bad I wasnt about half my size...)
Click to expand...

I dont think I've seen anything quite like that topcoat at Press


----------



## shuman

Another Trad Question: I have the chance to purchase some Allen Edmonds at a very reduced price, and am considering several. The Leeds or Grayson in burg. shell cordo. or the Cameron in burg. calf. I own the Leeds in black calf, but as I dont wear black too often, they dont get much wear, although I love the shoes. The only shell cordo. shoe I own is the Macneil in burg shell, so I would like to get another. Any thoughts?


----------



## Lord Foppington

It's been a slow day at work, and I've had a chance to read through much of the innards of this thread which I hadn't got to earlier.

One thing about it that strikes me, philosophically (if you will) speaking: 

Part of the thread seems to be about bemoaning the loss of standards, the fact that kids these days don't know how to dress, &c. &c. There seems to be a real desire to go back to the days where everybody wore this stuff.

But another part of it seems to be traditionalists delighting in their own minority status, keeping the torch lit and whatnot, looking back with nostaligia, whatever you want to call it.

Now I certainly see how these two moods could go together. But you don't have to be a superficial paradox-monger to notice there's a potential incompatibility between them, if looked at in a certain way. If you delight in the slightly odd-ball, anachronistic, antique, or against-the-grain affect of these clothes, then surely you don't want the look to prevail in some widespread way. If every young barbarian in prep school now were wearing traditional clothing, that style would lose of lot of its sepia-toned allure.

At least for me. I'm not just logic-chopping. I really do like wearing traditional American clothing (with some dissonant elements thrown in). But part of why I do it is because I'm touched by its slow slipping away. 

Maybe that makes it in some way a little bit of a costume for me, i.e. not an "organic" look I was born into, rather one I "put on" a bit. But that's clothing for you.

And by the way--I'd always thought good Dr Johnson vehemently detested slavery, and somebody (I forget who) up-thread seemed to imply otherwise. I'm no Johnsonian, so I'd be interested to hear more about that. Maybe another day.

Egad!


----------



## n/a

I think we all take some pleasure in the fact that we're a dying breed. Dinosaurs, if you please. I'm fine with the young slobs who eschew trad. It's the ones who pervert trad--the Gap/J. Crew/Old Navy/Banana Republic crowd--that make for nuissance. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Literide

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I think we all take some pleasure in the fact that we're a dying breed. Dinosaurs, if you please. I'm fine with the young slobs who eschew trad. It's the ones who pervert trad--the Gap/J. Crew/Old Navy/Banana Republic crowd--that make for nuissance.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


Harris,
Yes, if one were outfitting oneself completely from one of the above retailers, you could call that not only a "perversion" of trad, but a total lack of any flair or imagination. However, ocasionally, single items from one of these places rise above the morass and can even represent value. One spring I picked up 3 or 4 no logo Polo shirts at Old Navy in some great colors that I got many summers use of. And the price drops incrementally the more of the same item you buy.

PS the distressed near white Khakis at Quicksilver* in Times Sq look pretty good for $56. I may pick up a pair when I think spring has really arrived. Great 80's music always playing there as well.

*They make surf boards and related beachware, for the uninitiated.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Daniele_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> I've been admiring Daniele's posts, esp. because it's beeen fascinating to see the way those outside the States interpret or uphold (sometimes more strictly to the letter than we now do) the Amer/Trad look.
> 
> D. mentioned elsewhere the Harrington style jacket -- I remember having one from London Fog. They were a big seller in pro shops at golf clubs too.
> 
> In fact, I just saw an old film with Rock Hudson, and he was wearing a Harrrington.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Horace, thank you for your kind words of apreciation!
> 
> As for the London Fog Harrington, how is it like? I know that London Fog were among the most renown and sought after harringtons, together with the Baracutas, but never saw one "in flesh" (hope the term is correct..). An Italian small chain of retailers (that used to import also the Baracuta )was supposed to stock them, but as far as I know they didn't actually.
> I've got two Baracuta G-9 (sky blue and bottle green) and are my favourite casual jackets, nice to wear expecially while riding my Lambretta scooter in the warm spring sun![8D]
> Harringtons (or, like somebody used to call them in the sixties, the "Ivy jackets") are another of those items coming from the UK that gained their fame and allure on your side of the Ocean, also thanks to many Hollywood stars, and now declare "Classic America" at first sight....English young devotees to the Ivy style in the late 50s craved to buy them (together with R&B records) from the American GIs based in UK and attending the same jazz clubs in the London West End they used to go to.
> What I would call "clothings with a soul"...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Daniele
Click to expand...

Daniele,

GREAT NEWS. Press has a jacket, made in England, that looks very much like the Baracuta. It's in their Spring catalog. They're a bit pricey, US$350 or so, but not unreasonable if the quality is there.

PS: Just received my Press gear. The lambswool scarves are made in Ireland, not England. But they're good quality. I'd rather them be 6 ft, but sometimes it's nice to have a shorter scarve. Boxers made in USA, good quality. The fair isle socks are unbelievably good, made in England. Canadian make shirts leave something to be desired. Not bad, necessarily, but not as nice as USA make. They also appear to be one of the last American firms to offer a true 100% poplin suit, off-the-rack, at a reasonable price. It's good to know we can still find something that will wrinkle horribly.


----------



## Daniele

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> Daniele,
> 
> GREAT NEWS. Press has a jacket, made in England, that looks very much like the Baracuta. It's in their Spring catalog. They're a bit pricey, US$350 or so, but not unreasonable if the quality is there.


Horace,
good to know that they have in stock that wonderful casual jacket. Is it produced by the same English company that makes Baracuta? As for price, here Baracuta G-9 are 220 euros, and 135 pounds in London at J. Simons'. I agree with you, not unreasonable for the quality.

Cheers,
Daniele


----------



## DukeGrad

Gentlemen

Horace/Danielle/Harris

I saw your last post, had mentioned the London Fog coat in another forum.
I had a couple some 30 years ago, one, The Harrington style also.
Another, was a raincoat with wool lining, like the Burberry.
Is London Fog around anymore?
Just curions.
Harris The sweaters are really nice from the Andover shop, the shetlands.

You all have a nice day

Jimmy


----------



## Chris H

octer


> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> Is London Fog around anymore?
> Just curions.


I think I've seen a few London Fog stores in various outlet malls.

There used to be a London Fog store in the Belz Outlet Mall in Orlando, Florida on International Drive.


----------



## n/a

That news about Princeton students saddens. Tragic. I would've thought that of all the Ivies, Princeton would still be maintaing some sort of standard. Such a "trad" town, complete with the Alchemist & Barrister, Nassau Inn, the best jeweler in the Northeast (for my money), Nick's shop on Witherspoon, J. McLaughlin, and, of course, the upper campus. (The lower campus is God-awful with the exception of the boathouse). 

It's a shame the students don't appreciate the community they're blessed to part of, not to mention the centuries of tradition that sustain that community. I'm guessing the eating clubs aren't what they used to be. Reason to lament.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## duster

Lord Foppington asked about Samuel Johnson and slavery. I've lifted the following from one of the web sites devoted to the topic.

"How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of *******?"
Johnson, "Taxation No Tyranny"

"It must be agreed that in most ages many countries have had part of their inhabitants in a state of slavery; yet it may be doubted whether slavery can ever be supposed the natural condition of man. It is impossible not to conceive that men in their original state were equal; and very difficult to imagine how one would be subjected to another but by violent compulsion. An individual may, indeed, forfeit his liberty by a crime; but he cannot by that crime forfeit the liberty of his children. What is true of a criminal seems true likewise of a captive. A man may accept life from a conquering enemy on condition of perpetual servitude; but it is very doubtful whether he can entail that servitude on his descendants; for no man can stipulate without commission for another. The condition which he himself accepts, his son or grandson would have rejected."
James Boswell, Life of Johnson


----------



## n/a

Indeed. I've always enjoyed the time I spent in Princeton, which, it appears, is a charming little borough. By the look of the homes near the campus, I would have guessed it's a breeding ground for the very best the Ivy League once stood for--good parties, good clubs, good work ethic, good sense of humor, and, of course, the right duds.

I'm sorry to hear that about the administration. I can't speak to Princeton, but at Yale, the decline likely began with Brewster.

I agree with your assessment of the students' dress at games. Last year I accompanied my wife and parents to the Princeton-Yale game (at Princeton). I recall that the Tiger alums (50+ crowd) were nattily clad. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## rojo

College students wearing nothing but jeans, t-shirts, and sandals or flip-flops started with the anti-Establishment leftist hippies during the Johnson administration. To these people, coats and ties were â€œsquare.â€ Itâ€™s been 40 years since beatnik ethos first informed the hippie movement, but many Americans born since 1945 remain suspicious of the uncool jacket and tie, particularly during their college years.

Eating clubs and fraternities across the land have been under attack from the left for decades because theyâ€™re seen as bastions of the traditional patriarchal bourgeoisie. They must be democratized or destroyed -- preferably destroyed. Itâ€™s difficult to divorce this discussion from politics. I remember seeing Rush Limbaughâ€™s television show once or twice in the 90s and being surprised that he had a coat and tie studio audience. That didnâ€™t happen by accident.


----------



## crs

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Itâ€™s been 40 years since beatnik ethos first informed the hippie movement, but many Americans born since 1945 remain suspicious of the uncool jacket and tie, particularly during their college years.


With all due respect, during the Beat era Kerouac especially and even Ginsberg often were pictured with jackets and extremely skinny ties, looking very Trad. That is, until Ginsberg melded into the hippie era and started wearing Zenmaster-type garb. Kerouac and Ginsberg attended Columbia.

I must say the Ivy Leaguers I know seem to move seamlessly from homeless attire to pinstripes immediately upon graduation. That is, if they don't spend a year in Europe on family money in between.


----------



## DukeGrad

Gentlemen

I did this so I could be number 400!!
On this forum
Nice day

Jimmy


----------



## DukeGrad

Gentlemen

A chance to share some wisdom.
This is my opinion only.
For 25 years I wore a uniform, mostly fatigues.
We all looked the same.
For twenty five years I lived and "loved" my profession, that of a " Soldier" I am so proud of this part of me.
I am so happy to be able to wear clothing.
LOL
Harris, I am sorry. That might have been me at that football game in jeans and a sweatshirt.
I am seeing things differently than a lot of you, and have become more accepting.
Of people, who they are, what they are about.
And it has been exciting! 
Gentlemen, you are missing out, on life.
Go out and enjoy it.
Wear some jeans.
Meet all the people, you are missing out.
On so much.


Commolli I enjoyed reading your post, those NE Yankees, lol.
You are a southern gentlemen true blue (oops gray), sorry.

Thanks again Commoli
Nice day gentlemen 


Jimmy


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by DukeGrad_
> 
> Gentlemen
> 
> A chance to share some wisdom.
> This is my opinion only.
> For 25 years I wore a uniform, mostly fatigues.
> We all looked the same.
> For twenty five years I lived and "loved" my profession, that of a " Soldier" I am so proud of this part of me.
> I am so happy to be able to wear clothing.
> LOL
> Harris, I am sorry. That might have been me at that football game in jeans and a sweatshirt.
> I am seeing things differently than a lot of you, and have become more accepting.
> Of people, who they are, what they are about.
> And it has been exciting!
> Gentlemen, you are missing out, on life.
> Go out and enjoy it.
> Wear some jeans.
> Meet all the people, you are missing out.
> On so much.
> 
> Commolli I enjoyed reading your post, those NE Yankees, lol.
> You are a southern gentlemen true blue (oops gray), sorry.
> 
> Thanks again Commoli
> Nice day gentlemen
> 
> Jimmy


Jimmy,

as someone who wears jeans and t-shirts and sweatshirts himself on occasion, I still must ask you to consider one of the main reasons beyond the lamenting of the loss of students dressing for games: tradition and a certain sense of cohesion and unity. Now while it's true that those same values may be promoted by idiots in face paint, do you not at least somewhat agree that the decline in sartorial standards at schools (be they secondary or college/Uni) bespeaks a loss in a sense of the importance, privilege, and seriousness of these insitutions -- institutions that have become "businesses" serving a consumer rather than a "student"?

I bemoan the loss of dressing for college more than I do this silly practice of business casual. It's the same with architecture. Schools traditionally followed the medieval model of arch., and it put into the mind of the student the idea that the place was older than him and would be there after him. He was there for it, and not the other way around. In a sense at least. Though it doesn't have to be a medieval, gothic arch. on campus. But it should be conservative, in should be grand, and it should endure in taste.

My point, I guess, is not so much that I disagree with your point about football games as much as I wanted to emphasize what I see as the symbolic importance of clothing and architecture and whanot as paying respect to something larger than ourselves (be it Andover, Harvard, The Corps, your family, your city, your country, etc).

I don't want to be an old stick in the mud, but maybe the loss of dressing for weddings reflects the fact that marriage is no longer taken as seriously.

Maybe it's not so much the clothing standards that we should be bemoaning as much as there are large cultural issues at work, and the bloody slobs that are around are simply a reflection of that.

So to get back to your post, I think levi's and sweatshirts are fine for games, but I do think it a pity that the student body doesn't dress as it used to for these events.

(And as we talked about pages ago in these threads -- it's still very possibly to subvert the dress code, while still showing a modicum of outward respect -- so I don't want to hear arguments from anyone about "individuality" and whatnot -- they don't wash with me. Real individuality is in thought and deed).


----------



## n/a

Points well made. I've often thought that behind my taste in clothing, there was something more significant at work--an underlying desire to see certain traditions maintained and fostered...an abiding appreciation for manners and etiquette.

Certainly clothing is an extension of public presentation, which is really all about manners and etiquette. I'm hopelessly Protestant in this regard: inside we may all be a complete mess, but manners and etiquette can and will make the world run more smoothly! If, in actuality, someone is a compolete slob, fine. But proper etiquette demands that no matter how much of a slob you actually are (deep down inside), you are nonetheless expected to look and act decently to and for the public.

My father used to say "Fake it until you make it," which, translated, is something like "You may actually be a filthy, rotten, selfish person, but you do NOT have to act like it." How true! Where morals and ethics fail, etiquette (and/or manners) rise to the occasion! 

And so it is that the failure to keep up certain sartorial standards is yet another way of saying "I'm not going to pretend to be any better than I feel like I actually am." 

Tragic. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## shuman

I was thinking about this business casual stuff, along with the decline in sartorial standards by the general public. Another influence, in my opinion, is the 80's parents who told their children that someone could not make you dress or act a certain way, etc. 

We have a generation of young people out there who think that the world exists to serve them. We could get into a talk about Liberal values, etc. but I wont go there. Teachers are at a loss for what to do about bad students. Cant discipline anymore. No one can touch my precious Johnny, etc. I think these things are all related, and somewhat extend to relaxed ettiquette and dress codes. 

Am I making sense? Hopefully this didnt come out as rambling.


----------



## Doctor Damage

If it's not asking too much, can we get back to the clothes, please?

This thread was pretty good until some recent posters started to drone on about how glorious the "good old days" were, how grateful one should be to have an Ivy League education, how wonderful it was when women were not admitted to university, men dressed "properly", blah blah blah.

It must be contagious, now I'm ranting...

Doctor Damage


----------



## DukeGrad

Gentlemen

Horace

Your points well made. I understand you fully, grew up in schools that had a uniform, so I know what you are talking about.
I guess, I have adapted to things, and what made this happen for me was my children.
The military also was a good start as well.
Everyone, was put into the same pot.
So, I look at things a lot differently, than I might have.
This make sense? cause I am confused as you know what.
LOL
Gentlemen

Enjoy your weekends


Jimmy


----------



## marc_au

Dear fellow forum members:

can someone post pictures of trad clothing. This thread would be alot greater if we could view more pictures. Half of this thread l do not understand, this is because l don't have pictures to view. A picture says a thousand wprds.

GR8MAN (The shooman) B8MAN.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by marc_au_
> 
> Dear fellow forum members:
> 
> can someone post pictures of trad clothing. This thread would be alot greater if we could view more pictures. Half of this thread l do not understand, this is because l don't have pictures to view. A picture says a thousand wprds.
> 
> GR8MAN (The shooman) B8MAN.


google: moniyham, geo. plimpton, GHW Bush, Miles Davis and other jazz musicians from 50's and 60's and you'll see what we are talking about. Go to press, silver, andover websites, and then you'll get the drift. Check out pictures of Robert Kennedy and JFK. Also note the pics. that Daniele has posted, and the links that Harris has posted to. That should get you started. Or you'll see the look in a lot of the "style" books by the well-known authors, on whom much has been written here.


----------



## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by marc_au_
> 
> can someone post pictures of trad clothing. This thread would be alot greater if we could view more pictures. Half of this thread l do not understand, this is because l don't have pictures to view. A picture says a thousand wprds.


I posted these in another thread:

Here's some Plimpton:

(note the similar attire and even pose to the WFB picture in the other thread)

https://www.thecolumnists.com/johnson/johnson46art1.jpg

study in contrast: 
https://www.english-speakingunion.org/images/Plimpton and Wolfe.JPG

Moynihan:

Miles Davis: 
https://www.bttw.co.uk/stills/images/mdavis.jpg


----------



## marc_au

Thanks Alan. l notice there are alot of turtle neck sweaters, is this common to trad? . American Trad clothing is how l thought it would look, non structured clothing. Not my style at all. l don't really get it. l can clearly see the Anderson & Sheppard look in the clothes too.



GR8MAN (The shooman) B8MAN.


----------



## Chris H

Here is a UK take on the style, the two guys on the left are Chris Dreja and Eric Clapton. The picture was taken in 1964 when they were in a band called the Yardbirds.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Chris H_
> 
> Here is a UK take on the style, the two guys on the left are Chris Dreja and Eric Clapton. The picture was taken in 1964 when they were in a band called the Yardbirds.


Shooman, old mate, you trying to tell me that you don't get Miles man? Come on, don't be a shoo-foo. It's Miles baby. I bow to no one in my admiration for your knowledge of the shoo. But Miles man, you gots to like and his style.

But seriously. Turtlenecks probably overrepresented.

Thanks Chris H. for the link. Interesting discussion. I think those foreign to a culture or outside of it, always understand or interpret or reinterpret it the best. And I've really appreciated your postings as well as Daniele's.

Fair Dinkum, Shooman?

Horace
"Rubber Sole Man"


----------



## DukeGrad

Gentlemen

Marc, no on turtlenecks.
I guess visit the Andover shop or J Press online, Ben Silver is a combination, give you some idea.

Have nice day

Jimmy


----------



## rojo

Itâ€™s fun to compare some of the contradictory things written on the various threads here about the natural shoulder, three-button Ivy League style suits, jackets, shirts, and ties.

On the one hand we are told that they are boring â€œold manâ€ clothes, hopelessly out of place in the modern world of the new generation. On the other hand, we read that the repp ties, button-down shirts, plain front trousers, and undarted navy blazers at the core of the Ivy League style are the province of frat boys who havenâ€™t grown up enough to learn how to dress and who wear them as the standard uniform at virtually all college socials. Are these the clothes for todayâ€™s out-of-touch old men or todayâ€™s immature frat boys? Surely they canâ€™t be both.

Then thereâ€™s the question of physique. Some say that the relatively unconstructed suits and jackets were designed to disguise the portly, pear-shaped bodies of middle-aged men who have let themselves go. Others have said that because the style first became popular on college campuses, the sack coats are appropriate only for young, lithe, athletic men of college age. How is it possible for both to be true?


----------



## DukeGrad

Rojo

Are these your thoughts? I am very curious.

Or are you passing thoughts that you have read somewhere, that are extremely flawed. Especially about portly, pear-shaped ,middle aged men.
As well as Navy blazers and button down shirts.
Do you wear a navy blazer or button down shirts?

Have a nice day gentlemen

















Jimmy


----------



## Trilby

Rojo - I understand how these things may seem contradictory. However, perhaps the different people you are describing are really just the same people at different phases of their lives.


----------



## rojo

I'm sorry, apparently I did not make myself clear. NONE of those thoughts are mine. What I wrote above was a collection of things I have read in various threads on this forum. 

One person writes that these days, Trad is a style today worn only by old men. Another person comes along and posts that these days, Trad is a style worn only by fraternity boys. All I was doing was pointing out that one or both of those statements must be wrong.

Same thing with body types. One person writes in all seriousness that the reason for the relatively unconstructed jackets is to hide an overweight build. Someone else comes along and writes that the reason for the loosely constructed jackets is that the style was first popularized on campus and is appropriate only for young, lean builds. Once again, all I was doing was pointing out that one or both of those statements cannot be correct.

In my closet there are about 30 button-down shirts with the Brooks Brothers label, most bought more than 10 years ago, and a trio of three-button sack navy blazers.


----------



## SeaPlusPlus

Those 'stuffy old men' ARE those 'young frat boys'... just a few decades later... 

what goes around... comes around...

the more things change... the more they stay the same...

some of us didn't stay 'true' to trad on the journey... and it took a mid-life crisis to 'see the error of our ways... 

Thanks...

Rich

Do the clothes suit you?
Do the clothes suit the occasion?
Do the clothes suit each other?


----------



## crs

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> I'm sorry, apparently I did not make myself clear. NONE of those thoughts are mine. What I wrote above was a collection of things I have read in various threads on this forum.


A lot of that going around. On another thread people believed I was calling bow-tie wearers gay. As if I would care if they were.

By the way, why three navy blazers? I just wear one until it's no good and replace it. Do you wear blazers so often that they need to be rotated?


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> I'm sorry, apparently I did not make myself clear. NONE of those thoughts are mine. What I wrote above was a collection of things I have read in various threads on this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of that going around. On another thread people believed I was calling bow-tie wearers gay. As if I would care if they were.
> 
> By the way, why three navy blazers? I just wear one until it's no good and replace it. Do you wear blazers so often that they need to be rotated?
Click to expand...

I've got two -- one is horrible and horribly expensive. The other is heavy flannel. The former is lightweight, single breasted and center vent, the other is single breasted, double vent.

I don't like double breasted blazers.

My next will be something like the Ben SIlver American blazer. Patch pockets, etc. Or something in Hopsack. Like you seen on the Hunter & COggins website (out of Asheville).

Anyway, point is, I can see having more than one blazer, though truth be told, I'm really trying to have less "stuff" so I'd only have it in the closet if I wear it. Else in the trunk to hand-down, etc.


----------



## crs

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> My next will be something like the Ben SIlver American blazer. Patch pockets, etc. Or something in Hopsack. Like you seen on the Hunter & COggins website (out of Asheville).


The Asheville place appears to use a polyester blend in the blazers, no? They look OK on the computer screen, but I don't think I could go that route.


----------



## DukeGrad

Horace That blazer is made by Aquascutum.
The brithish DB is done by Benson and Clegg;

Rojo, that is fine,
CRS same for you.
I know how these things can crop up.
I try to understand the audience, we have so much here.
I still want to understand Vets and bowling alleys, but the heck with it.
You all have a nice day

Jimmy


----------



## rojo

crs, in explanation of my three blue blazers: 

One is lightweight for warm weather. It carries the label of a well respected local haberdasher now sadly out of business. I bought it second hand 20 years ago for next to nothing, maybe $8 or $12. The fit and cut were exactly to my liking. I suspect at one time it might have been part of a tropical weight navy sack suit from the late 1950s or early 1960s. I added a set of college blazer buttons (gift from my grandmother) to it so long ago that I can't remember what the original buttons looked like. 

The second blazer is wool flannel for cool weather. This is a relatively recent purchase from J. Press. I wore it to a company meeting today and got some compliments. I like this one a lot too, except the shoulders aren't quite perfect. Only I can tell, though. Still, it's very comfortable. I'm going to get some monogrammed blazer buttons for it from Shoreline Engravers.

The third does not fit me anymore. My grandparents bought it for me at Brooks Brothers when I was 15 or 16. I remember the discussion they had with my mother. She said, "He's just going to grow out of it," and they said, "Even if he has it for only one year, he must have something to wear." Exactly. What was my mother thinking? At 17, it still fit. At 18, it was starting to feel small. By 19, I had filled out to the point that I could no longer wear it comfortably. It's a decent blazer with plenty of life left in it. Maybe I'll pass it along to a young niece, nephew, or cousin and comment, "Even if this fits you for only one year, your great-grandparents would be glad to know that you have something to wear."


----------



## DukeGrad

Rojo

I have 2 as well, a 110 for all season, and a flannel for minus 20 etc.
I think a 100 may be a good one for the flannel.
I like the flannel anyway.
Have nice day

Jimmy


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> My next will be something like the Ben SIlver American blazer. Patch pockets, etc. Or something in Hopsack. Like you seen on the Hunter & COggins website (out of Asheville).
> 
> 
> 
> The Asheville place appears to use a polyester blend in the blazers, no? They look OK on the computer screen, but I don't think I could go that route.
Click to expand...

Sorry -- perhaps I didn't look carefully enough. Still I like hopsack fabric, and I always thought it was a natural material. Maybe what they're calling hopsack is something of a blend?


----------



## Coolidge24

First time here, nice to see this forum.

I've just finished this entire thread as it is raining out and I am on spring break from my senior year in college and am bored.

I agree that a lot of sartorial splendor has been lost from the decline of the American Trad look on our campuses, and as a big fan and one of the few, proud wearers of this look left in New England colleges, I am compelled to speak about it.

Be assured, there are some, however few, even on New England liberal arts campuses, who keep it alive. I am one. Several years ago, my boarding school educated, well-dressed father suggested that I ought, since my blue blazer was too hot for summer, to pick up a Madras jacket. Failing to find these at local men's shops or Brooks Brothers (my original favorite store), I was referred by a New York Brooks salesperson to head to J.Press in New Haven. I found a great model there, although the salesman seemed surprised that a person of my age (then 20) would be looking for that sort of thing. However, I knew I'd made a good buy when I went to a July 4th party in Manhattan with it and nearly everyone asked me where I'd gotten it.

I have been shopping there ever since, mostly for shirts and accessories but occasionally (this week, I hope) a suit. Since my father has passed down many of his old natural shoulder, 3-button (with de rigeur hidden top button) suits and jackets from Hartford's venerable Stackpole-Moore-and Tryon to me, I have not needed to buy a lot of J.Press but I can say assuredly this is my favorite look and I will be wearing a lot more of it now that I have gotten into law school and will (hopefully) be a professional in 3 years.

Being the founder of the College Republicans at a liberal school, it is somewhat less surprising to my peers that I do dress at least semi-Ivy League several times a week on campus. By "semi" I mean I do, especially in cooler weather, don a sport coat over my tucked in oxford shirt, wear Bass Weejuns on a regular basis, and will, if in the mood, throw on a tie. I also wear a lot of wool cableknit sweaters, and I even have a red-blue tennis sweater that I throw on often. Besides the required coat-and-tie for Student Government meetings, there are maybe 3 other male students on campus who actually bother to put on a jacket with any frequency (ie several times a month). As I said, none of us three generally wear ties, as we would then, sadly, be better dressed than a goodly number of professors. And of course, I certainly don't dress up as much during the hotter weather, in September and may I usually wear polo shirts and bermudas over Top-siders. However, several elderly professors have complimented me on looking "well-turned out" each day.

You might think I'd catch a lot of flack for "dressing up" in this benighted sartorial age, and from the occasional jerk, I do. Some people ask why I never wear jeans, or never wear a t-shirt by itself unless I'm going to play squash or the like. Most of them have been ignored or I just tell them "because I like to dress this way". It hasn't stopped me from serving 3 terms on student government and being nominated for senior speaker at commencement.

IN FACT, being fairly popular, involved and well-known on campus, I've gotten a lot of respect for what I wear. A lot of guys don't wear it themselves, possibly unwilling to be different, possibly unwilling to ante up the $$, but they compliment me on it, ask where I got it, and rather more importantly for a straight male, I have received lots of compliments (especially for madras in the spring) from the girls.

Now, I am on a preppy campus (47% private schoolers) (preppy now meaning untucked Lacoste polos with flagged collar over Bermuda shorts and Reef sandals or Topsiders), so this might explain some of the acceptance: they _have_ seen it before, even if only on their fathers or grandfathers. Regardless, I think that even though a relaxed (read "dishevelled") look may be popular on campus, these same students from schools like mine will head right for the Brooks and J.Press racks once they head off to law school or financial houses like much of my class is about to do. In fact, several friends have begun subscribing to the Press catalog per my recommendation, and though they have to my knowledge yet to order anything but ribbon belts and repp ties, this signifies to me, at least, some hope for the future.

Until then, I will continue gamely flaunting my classic, "retro" "Republican" J. Press Ivy-League Look on campus, at least partially, until I can wear it completely "normally" to work.


----------



## jpeirpont

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> First time here, nice to see this forum.
> Since my father has passed down many of his old natural shoulder, 3-button (with de rigeur hidden top button) suits and jackets from Hartford's venerable Stackpole-Moore-and Tryon to me, I have not needed to buy a lot of J.Press but I can say assuredly this is my favorite look and I will be wearing a lot more of it now that I have gotten into law school and will (hopefully) be a professional in 3 years.


Welcome to the site. I walk pass Stackpole everyday in the summer when I'm home. Do you feel that it's be vearing away from the American Trad standard lately?


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> First time here, nice to see this forum.
> 
> I've just finished this entire thread as it is raining out and I am on spring break from my senior year in college and am bored.
> 
> I agree that a lot of sartorial splendor has been lost from the decline of the American Trad look on our campuses, and as a big fan and one of the few, proud wearers of this look left in New England colleges, I am compelled to speak about it.
> 
> Be assured, there are some, however few, even on New England liberal arts campuses, who keep it alive. I am one. Several years ago, my boarding school educated, well-dressed father suggested that I ought, since my blue blazer was too hot for summer, to pick up a Madras jacket. Failing to find these at local men's shops or Brooks Brothers (my original favorite store), I was referred by a New York Brooks salesperson to head to J.Press in New Haven. I found a great model there, although the salesman seemed surprised that a person of my age (then 20) would be looking for that sort of thing. However, I knew I'd made a good buy when I went to a July 4th party in Manhattan with it and nearly everyone asked me where I'd gotten it.
> 
> I have been shopping there ever since, mostly for shirts and accessories but occasionally (this week, I hope) a suit. Since my father has passed down many of his old natural shoulder, 3-button (with de rigeur hidden top button) suits and jackets from Hartford's venerable Stackpole-Moore-and Tryon to me, I have not needed to buy a lot of J.Press but I can say assuredly this is my favorite look and I will be wearing a lot more of it now that I have gotten into law school and will (hopefully) be a professional in 3 years.
> 
> Being the founder of the College Republicans at a liberal school, it is somewhat less surprising to my peers that I do dress at least semi-Ivy League several times a week on campus. By "semi" I mean I do, especially in cooler weather, don a sport coat over my tucked in oxford shirt, wear Bass Weejuns on a regular basis, and will, if in the mood, throw on a tie. I also wear a lot of wool cableknit sweaters, and I even have a red-blue tennis sweater that I throw on often. Besides the required coat-and-tie for Student Government meetings, there are maybe 3 other male students on campus who actually bother to put on a jacket with any frequency (ie several times a month). As I said, none of us three generally wear ties, as we would then, sadly, be better dressed than a goodly number of professors. And of course, I certainly don't dress up as much during the hotter weather, in September and may I usually wear polo shirts and bermudas over Top-siders. However, several elderly professors have complimented me on looking "well-turned out" each day.
> 
> You might think I'd catch a lot of flack for "dressing up" in this benighted sartorial age, and from the occasional jerk, I do. Some people ask why I never wear jeans, or never wear a t-shirt by itself unless I'm going to play squash or the like. Most of them have been ignored or I just tell them "because I like to dress this way". It hasn't stopped me from serving 3 terms on student government and being nominated for senior speaker at commencement.
> 
> IN FACT, being fairly popular, involved and well-known on campus, I've gotten a lot of respect for what I wear. A lot of guys don't wear it themselves, possibly unwilling to be different, possibly unwilling to ante up the $$, but they compliment me on it, ask where I got it, and rather more importantly for a straight male, I have received lots of compliments (especially for madras in the spring) from the girls.
> 
> Now, I am on a preppy campus (47% private schoolers) (preppy now meaning untucked Lacoste polos with flagged collar over Bermuda shorts and Reef sandals or Topsiders), so this might explain some of the acceptance: they _have_ seen it before, even if only on their fathers or grandfathers. Regardless, I think that even though a relaxed (read "dishevelled") look may be popular on campus, these same students from schools like mine will head right for the Brooks and J.Press racks once they head off to law school or financial houses like much of my class is about to do. In fact, several friends have begun subscribing to the Press catalog per my recommendation, and though they have to my knowledge yet to order anything but ribbon belts and repp ties, this signifies to me, at least, some hope for the future.
> 
> Until then, I will continue gamely flaunting my classic, "retro" "Republican" J. Press Ivy-League Look on campus, at least partially, until I can wear it completely "normally" to work.


Coolidge,

Good man. I must say it's nice to hear. Except the Republican stuff, of course. Though I myself had that leaning, if just to piss-off every friend of mine who was a well-heeled demo.

By the way, is it me, or did this thread used to number several more pages than it does now? Must be the switch in the software to allow more text to display, since the switch to the new server.


----------



## greenhouse

Horace,

I noticed that the number of pages on this thread had decreased, too. The last time I read it, I was thinking that perhaps there should be a separate forum category for American/Trad, as opposed to just a posting within the existing category.


----------



## malinda

The site is now displaying 30 posts per page rather than 15. With the old server, that would have taken too long to load. With the new server it comes up pretty fast. All posts are still here.


----------



## medwards

And`we appreciate the quicker loading. Thank you.


----------



## marc_au

l still liked the forum as it was previously - SLOW. 

Gr8 topic gents. l just wish l knew what you were all talking about.

Regards all: the shooman.



GR8MAN (The shooman) B8MAN.


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by jpeirpont_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> First time here, nice to see this forum.
> Since my father has passed down many of his old natural shoulder, 3-button (with de rigeur hidden top button) suits and jackets from Hartford's venerable Stackpole-Moore-and Tryon to me, I have not needed to buy a lot of J.Press but I can say assuredly this is my favorite look and I will be wearing a lot more of it now that I have gotten into law school and will (hopefully) be a professional in 3 years.
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the site. I walk pass Stackpole everyday in the summer when I'm home. Do you feel that it's be vearing away from the American Trad standard lately?
Click to expand...

Being a mere lad of 21, I cannot offer a comparison to Stackpole of a few years ago and Stackpole now. BUT in comparing the poplin suit I tried on there last week to the 1950s-1980s suits and jackets my father and late grandfather, both one-time Stackpole regulars, passed on to me, I can definitely see how they've changed.

My grandfather's old Stackpole chalk-stripes are basically just like J.Press suits are now...natural shoulders, third button rolled under lapel, no pleats, etc. The poplin suit I tried on at Stackpole last week was from Italy, had a disproportionately large patch pocket, had the ?new kind of three-button styling, the kind where all three buttons show and in my opinion make the wearer look like a bellhop, and despite being my size everywhere else, their 40R pulled in back. To top it off the price was $495, that would be approximately $150 more than at J.Press. I rather quickly decided against it, and am headed to Press this week to try on theirs.

What I do know about Stackpole Moore and Tryon from my dad's conversation with an employee there last week is that they are under new ownership since the last Mr. Tryon died about 10 years ago. The shop is now owned run by a woman who was a former employee. Perhaps she has un-Trad tastes...I saw a great many strangely patterned ties, oddly colored shirts, and of course, was very displeased with the suit...I dont know what one does with a patch pocket on a suit but for me, if you can't put a linen handkerchief in it, it's no good.

Coolidge


----------



## n/a

I think there was also an "American/Trad continued" forum. Also several pages. Probably lost somewhere in the archives...forever.
Cheers,
Harris


----------



## n/a

I think the look could be legitimately described as "Republican" if we're talking old-school John Chafee-or-Elliot Richardson-style Republican. Certainly not Tom Delay or Dennis Hassert Republican.

Okay, enough politics. Welcome to the new fellow, and glad to hear Trad is being maintained by a committed minority.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## tom22

I remember the old Stackpole Moore Tryon when it was in the original shop. They had a pneumatic tube system dating from the late 1800s. You would give the clerk the cash, he would fold it up, put it in the the tube and offit would rocket around the ceiling back to some central counting room. A few minutes later your change would come rocketing back. No that's what I call TRAD!


----------



## Coolidge24

> _Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I think the look could be legitimately described as "Republican" if we're talking old-school John Chafee-or-Elliot Richardson-style Republican. Certainly not Tom Delay or Dennis Hassert Republican.
> 
> Okay, enough politics. Welcome to the new fellow, and glad to hear Trad is being maintained by a committed minority.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris
> [/quote
> 
> Well, as far as I know from my history reading, men like Chafee were "fiscal conservative, social moderate" Republicans...and that is me, so I guess I might qualify as old-school. But yes, off the politics
> 
> Coolidge


----------



## jpeirpont

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by jpeirpont_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> First time here, nice to see this forum.
> Since my father has passed down many of his old natural shoulder, 3-button (with de rigeur hidden top button) suits and jackets from Hartford's venerable Stackpole-Moore-and Tryon to me, I have not needed to buy a lot of J.Press but I can say assuredly this is my favorite look and I will be wearing a lot more of it now that I have gotten into law school and will (hopefully) be a professional in 3 years.
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the site. I walk pass Stackpole everyday in the summer when I'm home. Do you feel that it's be vearing away from the American Trad standard lately?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Being a mere lad of 21, I cannot offer a comparison to Stackpole of a few years ago and Stackpole now. BUT in comparing the poplin suit I tried on there last week to the 1950s-1980s suits and jackets my father and late grandfather, both one-time Stackpole regulars, passed on to me, I can definitely see how they've changed.
> 
> My grandfather's old Stackpole chalk-stripes are basically just like J.Press suits are now...natural shoulders, third button rolled under lapel, no pleats, etc. The poplin suit I tried on at Stackpole last week was from Italy, had a disproportionately large patch pocket, had the ?new kind of three-button styling, the kind where all three buttons show and in my opinion make the wearer look like a bellhop, and despite being my size everywhere else, their 40R pulled in back. To top it off the price was $495, that would be approximately $150 more than at J.Press. I rather quickly decided against it, and am headed to Press this week to try on theirs.
> 
> What I do know about Stackpole Moore and Tryon from my dad's conversation with an employee there last week is that they are under new ownership since the last Mr. Tryon died about 10 years ago. The shop is now owned run by a woman who was a former employee. Perhaps she has un-Trad tastes...I saw a great many strangely patterned ties, oddly colored shirts, and of course, was very displeased with the suit...I dont know what one does with a patch pocket on a suit but for me, if you can't put a linen handkerchief in it, it's no good.
> 
> Coolidge
Click to expand...

Being an only slightly more substantial lad of 24, I can tell you it has change rather alarmingly. Though not selling Prada all their suits seem to have waist suppression and the ones that don't just aren't attractive. Their active wear is still ok if you stick to Bill's Khakis and the sort.


----------



## Horace

Well, it was only a matter of time before Amer Trad became a phrase of use outside these forums:


----------



## shuman

Of course, being a high-button stance on this particular suit, it is not as "Trad" as the seller seems to think.


----------



## n/a

Well, how about that! It appears the seller calls Beantown home. Not surprising. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Literide

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> Of course, being a high-button stance on this particular suit, it is not as "Trad" as the seller seems to think.


I think that top button just needs to be unbuttoned, see how its pulling


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> Of course, being a high-button stance on this particular suit, it is not as "Trad" as the seller seems to think.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that top button just needs to be unbuttoned, see how its pulling
Click to expand...

I've never seen a Press suit with a top-buttonable button like that. Thought that would go against their tradition.


----------



## rojo

The button stance does look odd for a J. Press suit. The label includes the San Francisco location, which dates this item to 1970s or early 1980s. It's possible that the suit has been recently pressed to alter the lapels to match the three-button high roll collars currently fashionable outside our staid tradlodyte world.


----------



## Chris H

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> The button stance does look odd for a J. Press suit. The label includes the San Francisco location, which dates this item to 1970s or early 1980s. It's possible that the suit has been recently pressed to alter the lapels to match the three-button high roll collars currently fashionable outside our staid tradlodyte world.


I think you are right rojo. I have a 1970s J. Press Seersucker jacket with the San Francisco label. It is cut so that it is possible to button the top button without distorting the line of the jacket, so it would be easy to press the lapels in the three button high roll manner.


----------



## Patrick06790

Anagram for "Amer Trad": A rad term

Anagram for "American Traditional": A torrid, maniacal nite

Boy, do I have too much time on my hands, or what?


----------



## 16128

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> 
> Anagram for "Amer Trad": A rad term
> 
> Anagram for "American Traditional": A torrid, maniacal nite
> 
> Boy, do I have too much time on my hands, or what?


A martini declaration!


----------



## Checks

> quote:quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by Patrick06790
> 
> Anagram for "Amer Trad": A rad term
> 
> Anagram for "American Traditional": A torrid, maniacal nite
> 
> Boy, do I have too much time on my hands, or what?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> A martini declaration!


Well done.

I'll drink to that!


----------



## RJman

Hasn't this thread gone on long enough? Why not start a "RJman hits 1000" thread instead?


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> Hasn't this thread gone on long enough? Why not start a "RJman hits 1000" thread instead?


No. I won't let this thread die.

Edit: is anyone still making good quality pajamas in the USA? Haven't bought a new pair in ages and am due. Maybe Gitman or someone -- something out of a very nice broadcloth or pinpoint ox? And draw-string waist preferably. And pajama shirt with contrasting piping etc. LL Bean used to make a good one. I'm also looking for a nice pinpoint shawl collared dressing gown/robe.


----------



## AlanC

Contra RJ, I will add to the thread by throwing in my latest thrift find from yesterday: a charcoal and white herringbone tweed sport coat by *Norman Hilton*. Three-button roll to two, no darts. Fits great. Other than some wear to the leather buttons on the sleeves it looks like it came new out of the shop just yesterday. Harris, you'll appreciate this, it was originally sold at "Richard's of Mountain Brook." All for the very Trad price of $3.88 (marked down from $4.88). I suppose it would sell in the $500-$700 range these days (I see B. Silver sells their Norman Hilton blazer for $995.)


----------



## n/a

That's quite a steal. Nice going. Cheers, Harris


----------



## tieguy

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Hello to all. I'm Harris--not to be confused with "A Harris," whom I believe has been a forum member for some time.
> 
> I live in the Northeastern U.S. and tend toward the American Look. Or trad or whatever you wish to call it. Sack suits, tassel loafers, shetland crewnecks, Harris Tweeds, madras, etc.
> 
> I am interested in knowing how many forum members have stuck with this look--the J. Press-Brooks-Andover Shop crowd.
> 
> Harris


----------



## williamkazak

This is my first post. Sounds like a nice group.
In response to the "Preppy Look" question, I have a few remarks.
In Chicago, I am not sure that it ever took hold as in the East.
We wear camel hair blazers and topcoats. Even 100% wool that is dyed darker than camel hair to avoid the dirt as a car can drive by and soil the camel hair. Many will choose navy wool topcoats for that reason. Some wear Harris Tweed blazers on occasion, myself included even though my ex-wife couln't stand it. Trenchcoats with a removable wool liner are essential as are some colorful scarves.
Practicality and good value seem to be the issues. Filenes Basement is an important shop as is Lands' End, Jos A Banks and Brooks.
Lands' End is selling Madras shirts this year. I was attempting to find Huntington today, having found my old catalogues. Those catalogues were just super and a guy could get a great sartorial education. They gave me a phone number when I attempted to dial Huntington today; 101027500. I am afraid to call. It is some kind of an international number now.
I still wear sperry topsiders. Don't you just love the white leather cvo's and their tan or burgendy originals? Kaki pleated pants from Lands' End in long rise in various colors are essential but never in navy or black. I like the kaki color and the royal blues or various whites and off whites in my kakis.
Button downed shirts are not for me. Straight collar pinpoints look better and I absolutely love linen shirts for summer both short and long sleeved. The long sleeved really keep my arms from burning.
Safari shirts and jackets are great with all of their pockets. Church's English Shoes are my choice for footware and I have so many I don't need any more for the rest of my life. They sold out the Chicago store on Wabash to the manager. It is now Careys Shoes at the same location. I have cap toes, wing tips and perforated cap toes which are my favorites. Loafers; only three pair by Florsheim. I need the elastic across them to keep them on the my foot and Florsheim fits the requirement. Shoe colors are English tan, burgendy and brown in complete sets for all of my shoes except I have two pair of black shoes both cap toed oxfords. 
As far as Polo goes; great ideas, updated classics and very high prices. I don't know who fits in their dress shirts, the necks are so tiny. They do have some wonderful silk shirts. I quit buying short sleeved silk shirts because I definitely prefer linen shirts. They are much cooler in summer. Long sleeved silk shirts are better for winter use than they are for summer.
Suits are Lands' End with extra pants as the waist line fluctuates from summer to winter and back again. I also wear a navy double breasted blazer with brass buttons very well.
Yellow windbreaker jackets with white pants really kick for summer!

William Kazak


----------



## williamkazak

[:I]
I have a Land's end pajama set hanging in the armoire. It is white with royal blue pin stripes. Very natty. Hardly worn. I wear draw string bottoms now with no shirt. You can find those anywhere.

William Kazak


----------



## mpcsb

> quote:_Originally posted by williamkazak_
> 
> [:I]
> I have a Land's end pajama set hanging in the armoire. It is white with royal blue pin stripes. Very natty. Hardly worn. I wear draw string bottoms now with no shirt. You can find those anywhere.
> 
> William Kazak


I quit wearing pajamas tops or bottoms years ago! LOL [8D]


----------



## williamkazak

How about a royal blue silk blazer for summer or a textured silk blazer in a creamy off/white?
That is a nice compliment to a collection that contains a traditional navy blazer.

William Kazak


----------



## williamkazak

One more thing: Any thoughts about Jos. Banks? My only experience with them was with a pair of tuxedo pants about 16 years ago. They were nice. They seem like they'd be a good choice for trousers. 


I have purchased odd trousers from Banks. They are also good for tuxedos and tux accessories such as shirts and cufflinks.
You might find a blazer or suit to fit.



William Kazak


----------



## Literide

> quote:_Originally posted by williamkazak_
> 
> 
> This is my first post. Sounds like a nice group.
> In response to the "Preppy Look" question, I have a few remarks.
> In Chicago, I am not sure that it ever took hold as in the East.
> We wear camel hair blazers and topcoats. Even 100% wool that is dyed darker than camel hair to avoid the dirt as a car can drive by and soil the camel hair. Many will choose navy wool topcoats for that reason. Some wear Harris Tweed blazers on occasion, myself included even though my ex-wife couln't stand it. Trenchcoats with a removable wool liner are essential as are some colorful scarves.
> Practicality and good value seem to be the issues. Filenes Basement is an important shop as is Lands' End, Jos A Banks and Brooks.
> Lands' End is selling Madras shirts this year. I was attempting to find Huntington today, having found my old catalogues. Those catalogues were just super and a guy could get a great sartorial education. They gave me a phone number when I attempted to dial Huntington today; 101027500. I am afraid to call. It is some kind of an international number now.
> I still wear sperry topsiders. Don't you just love the white leather cvo's and their tan or burgendy originals? Kaki pleated pants from Lands' End in long rise in various colors are essential but never in navy or black. I like the kaki color and the royal blues or various whites and off whites in my kakis.
> Button downed shirts are not for me. Straight collar pinpoints look better and I absolutely love linen shirts for summer both short and long sleeved. The long sleeved really keep my arms from burning.
> Safari shirts and jackets are great with all of their pockets. Church's English Shoes are my choice for footware and I have so many I don't need any more for the rest of my life. They sold out the Chicago store on Wabash to the manager. It is now Careys Shoes at the same location. I have cap toes, wing tips and perforated cap toes which are my favorites. Loafers; only three pair by Florsheim. I need the elastic across them to keep them on the my foot and Florsheim fits the requirement. Shoe colors are English tan, burgendy and brown in complete sets for all of my shoes except I have two pair of black shoes both cap toed oxfords.
> As far as Polo goes; great ideas, updated classics and very high prices. I don't know who fits in their dress shirts, the necks are so tiny. They do have some wonderful silk shirts. I quit buying short sleeved silk shirts because I definitely prefer linen shirts. They are much cooler in summer. Long sleeved silk shirts are better for winter use than they are for summer.
> Suits are Lands' End with extra pants as the waist line fluctuates from summer to winter and back again. I also wear a navy double breasted blazer with brass buttons very well.
> Yellow windbreaker jackets with white pants really kick for summer!
> 
> William Kazak


What are Top Sider CVOs?


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> My decision to stick with oxford cloth button-downs is almost entirely practical, or, to be more precise, economical.
> 
> I wash them at home--about eight or nine at a time--by simply throwing them into the washer (gentle cycle). Then, I place them on hangers and let them drip-dry or throw them in the dryer for about five or six minutes and then hang to drip-dry. This means that over the course of years and decades, I save a ton of money that others pay their local dry-cleaner. Also, the shirts last MUCH longer. I have a couple of 20-yr. old Brooks oxfords that are just now beginning to fray a bit.
> 
> Yes, this approach results in a slightly wrinkled or "puckered" (or "dimpled") appearance. But oxford cloths are supposed to look this way, in my opinion. I'm not sure I see the point in a stiffly starched oxford cloth shirt. Ditto, by the way, for chinos, which look their best when they're slightly frayed and wrinkled.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


I've started doing what old Harris does for his Oxfords. Though I still prefer to have pinpoints pressed.


----------



## n/a

Easy, ain't it?

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Markus

Harris,

Having become habituated to having my shirts laundered, it just seems impossible to me that I could feel comfortable wearing a shirt that had been processed as you describe.

Not criticizing, just commenting.

markus


----------



## Cocophone

I'm a CPA and my shirts start fraying on the cuff where it rubs the surface of my desk. Mostly on the right cuff, since I use my right hand for the 10 key. The rest of the shirt is fine, just the edge of the cuff.


----------



## crs

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> My decision to stick with oxford cloth button-downs is almost entirely practical, or, to be more precise, economical.
> 
> I wash them at home--about eight or nine at a time--by simply throwing them into the washer (gentle cycle). Then, I place them on hangers and let them drip-dry or throw them in the dryer for about five or six minutes and then hang to drip-dry. This means that over the course of years and decades, I save a ton of money that others pay their local dry-cleaner. Also, the shirts last MUCH longer. I have a couple of 20-yr. old Brooks oxfords that are just now beginning to fray a bit.
> 
> Yes, this approach results in a slightly wrinkled or "puckered" (or "dimpled") appearance. But oxford cloths are supposed to look this way, in my opinion. I'm not sure I see the point in a stiffly starched oxford cloth shirt. Ditto, by the way, for chinos, which look their best when they're slightly frayed and wrinkled.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris
> 
> 
> 
> I've started doing what old Harris does for his Oxfords. Though I still prefer to have pinpoints pressed.
Click to expand...

I've tried this, too. I have no idea why, but this seems to work better with the Brooks Brothers blue oxfords than with the white oxfords, which still seem to need a good pressing, even with a little starch sometimes, to be presentable. I don't understand it.

Back in the 1980s I used to iron my shirts myself without starch. A colleague asked if "you have your shirts professionally wrinkled or do you wrinkle them yourself?" I started sending them out, but stopped after getting married and buying a washer and dryer. And fashions have changed to the point that even if I am somewhat rumpled, I am still better dressed than almost everyone I work with.


----------



## n/a

Yes, it does work better with the blue oxfords. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Yes, it does work better with the blue oxfords.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


Why do you think this is?

Back to the wash and hang (after perhaps having thrown in dryer): this is what I used to do in college -- or the result rather of fluff-and-fold.

I worked with a lot of wasps so never really got flack for it. I always distrusted a guy who was too put together or worried about ironing a shirt.


----------



## n/a

Reminds me of a funny story. An old pal of mine from college interviewed with a white shoe law firm (in Richmond, it just so happens) last year. He discarded his old trad threads for brand new Oxxford suit, spread collar shirt, and cap toes. He got the job, but was told afterwards, "It won't be necessary for you to dress like that after you start here." My friend replied, "Dress like what?" 

Forth came the response: "Like you're in the mafia, son."

Now he wears his old suits, blazers, and repp ties every day. Just like everybody else there does. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## williamkazak

What are Top Sider CVOs?
[/quote]
Top Sider CVO's are those siped bottom shoes that started out looking like Keds. They were white first in canvas, then you could find them in Roayal blue. Now they come in assorted pigment washed, etc. colors.
Mine are in white leather.
They bridge a gap. They work real well with chinos. It is a nautical heritage motiff!

William Kazak


----------



## Doctor Damage

Harris:

Since the Trad is strong with you, can you advise on this?

When I was at 346 Madison I bought some BB BDs. They measured me for a 35 sleeve, but I bought 36 sleeves and have adjusted the cuff buttons to tighten the cuffs. My question is, is it better to wear these shirts with a 'just right' sleeve lenghth?

Thanks,
Dr. Dam.


----------



## n/a

That's actually a really good question. While the tape measure reads that I should be wearing a 34" sleeve, I almost always go with a 35". I like an extra bit of cuff to show, and, after all, there's going to be some shrinkage over time if the shirt is made of 100% cotton. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Film_Noir_Buff

Scary thread, I can never hope to read it all.

Raised a trad, Ive become more of an "Old boy" with a decidedly cleaned up, milanese approach. Probably, milanese quality and tailoring with old boy suitings, details and colors.

I should start a thread for us...if there's any of us left, the trads seem to have cornered the board.

Trad can be fun bc the world is so small, that the elements can be concentrated on to produce very personal style.


____________________
Dulce et decorum est pro Dandia viva


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Contra RJ, I will add to the thread by throwing in my latest thrift find from yesterday: a charcoal and white herringbone tweed sport coat by *Norman Hilton*. Three-button roll to two, no darts. Fits great. Other than some wear to the leather buttons on the sleeves it looks like it came new out of the shop just yesterday. Harris, you'll appreciate this, it was originally sold at "Richard's of Mountain Brook." All for the very Trad price of $3.88 (marked down from $4.88). I suppose it would sell in the $500-$700 range these days (I see B. Silver sells their Norman Hilton blazer for $995.)


Hey, first time really finding a good piece of thrift-gear: found an older Brooks Makers tweed 3 button sack -- 2 buttons on the sleeves. Perfect condition -- perfect fit with enough room to layer with oxford and shaggy dog sweater. For $3.30


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> That's actually a really good question. While the tape measure reads that I should be wearing a 34" sleeve, I almost always go with a 35". I like an extra bit of cuff to show, and, after all, there's going to be some shrinkage over time if the shirt is made of 100% cotton.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


I wear a 33 -- but actually think they are too short (by just a little)-- but I've been wearing the 33 for so long, I just don't want to change it. It's almost a tad bit too short in a Brooks -- and just the right size in a Mercer. I have a feeling I'm more a 34.

I don't like too much linen to show anyway (just 1/4 inch, if that) from underneath coat sleeve.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Question for the older members: Did BB BDs ever come in any colours other than the current ones, like say green?

Dr. Damage


----------



## rojo

I have a mid-1980s BB catalogue that offered the basic Brooks oxford cloth button-down in white, blue, pink, yellow, and -- ecru, stone, and peach. Stone and peach promptly disappeared. Ecru might have hidden in the background a little longer.


----------



## Brownshoe

The ecru is available now


----------



## longwing

What they used to call peach seems pretty close to what they call yellow now. The peach may have been a little richer, but the current yellow is peachy (ignore pun).

They used to have a yellow on white stripe oxford that I miss. Bold blue on white stripe broadcloth is gone, tattersal plaids seem to be gone as well. Since the appearance of non-iron, lots of great shirts have disappeared.

I do remember green and purple oxfords from long ago, can't remember if they were BB.

Charles


----------



## rojo

I think you're right LongWing, there was a time in the last 20 years when BB offered the shirt in green and purple, although they called the purple something like halo or haze or heliotrope or some less obvious name?

I'm still clinging to my yellow and white striped oxford, even though it has a couple of small stains that just won't disappear.

BB used to offer so many shirting options in both oxford cloth and broadcloth, with either button-down or tennis collar. Today, if you don't want to go non-iron, trim-fit, or custom order, BB has very few decent shirting options.


----------



## Brownshoe

Yeah, where's the tattersall!!!??!!!

That's my favorite pattern for shirts, and it's endlessly annoying BB has dropped it


----------



## Charley

My favorite shirt of all time was a tattersall one from Gant - circa 1968. Slightly brushed finish, great buttondown collar, white ground with black and red. I almost cried when it had to go a few years ago.

I thought I had found a replacement a few months ago. Bought some Barbour shirts on STP. Fabric is right. Collar and colors ok. The darned things are just simply huge through the body with a very large arm hole. Another reason to cry, I guess.

Tattersall with tweeds or the navy blazer is the perfect style, IMHO.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> I have a mid-1980s BB catalogue that offered the basic Brooks oxford cloth button-down in white, blue, pink, yellow, and -- ecru, stone, and peach. Stone and peach promptly disappeared. Ecru might have hidden in the background a little longer.


I remember the Peach colored one. In fact, it made its way into contemporary fiction at some point.


----------



## n/a

I would love to see a photo of the peach oxford.

Which piece of fiction?

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## 16128

I've just run across this: trad fabrics for the home. (Seersucker, etc)

https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/main/archives/003023.html#more


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I would love to see a photo of the peach oxford.
> 
> Which piece of fiction?
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


Harris,

let me check -- it was a novel of the last 10-20 years -- in the novel -- a woman is wearing a man's peach colored Brooks oxford. I thought it strange (and memorable) because I didn't recall the peach Oxford. But there's nothing like a woman in a Brooks Oxford cloth shirt and....that's all.


----------



## rojo

Catalogues in hand. 

Spring 1982: "Our Famous Oxfords. This celebrated shirt is made in our own workrooms of an exclusive long staple Pima cotton oxford cloth. It features our button-down Polo collar and long sleeves. Blue, yellow, white, pink, ecru, stone or peach."

Spring 1985: "In blue, pink, white, peach, yellow, stone or ecru."

Summer 1985: "our celebrated own make shirt of exclusively woven long staple Pima cotton oxford... Choose blue, yellow, ecru, peach, stone, white or pink."

Christmas 1985: "Two New Colors in Our Famous Button-Down Oxfords. Your choice of solid colors in our own make oxford shirts has now been expanded to include green and helio... Rich yarn-dyed solids in blue, white, pink, stone, helio, yellow, green, ecru or peach."


----------



## Markus

Ooohhhhhh. The Brooks Brothers green. One of my favorite funky colors. If only it were available....

And I'm talking about that very vintage green, not any weird trendy greens that might have made it through the work rooms during an "experimental" period.

Markus


----------



## MichaelB

I had one of those peach BD's--a great shirt that was both thoroughly well-made and subtly different. Looked good with a camel's hair jacket and light gray flannel pants.


----------



## Horace

I never liked any of them. All I could do were the uni. stripes, the solid white, blue, and pink. I like the yellow though now. And I believe that for current stock, the ecru has been discontinued, no?


----------



## Tom Rath

Marcus - that vintage green oxford is still available, you have to order it through the MTM service. I own 3.


----------



## Tom Rath

Ecru is still available too, MTM. In fact, there are about 16 choices in the MTM program for the heavy oxfords, including some stripes other than the University stripe, and some plaids.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Phil, does the MTM service have the regular oxford cloth, or the non-iron? I don't want the latter...

Dr. Damage


----------



## Tom Rath

The MTM service has both the regular and the non-iron.


----------



## PJC in NoVa

Actually, Brooks carries ecru as a regularly available color in its RTW original oxford bd shirts:

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ection_Id=204&Product_Id=500031&Parent_Id=203

Ecru (along w/ light blue, white, pink, and yellow) has always been one of the "big 5" trad shades for oxfords.

I haven't seen the film in a while, but IIRC the shirt that Cary Grant has brought to him (along w/ trousers) so he can escape from the mental hospital in "North by Northwest" is a Brooks bd oxford in ecru.

I favor ecru (or "cream") shirts myself (albeit typically w/ a collar other than a bd and in a cloth finer than an oxford) as a superior alternative to white for wear with earthier tones such as most tweeds and also my gray suits with rust, ochre, or tannish stripings.

PJC in NoVa


----------



## Doctor Damage

Today I just noticed that the BB website has the BDs on sale at $114 for 3. Yippee! I shall make an order, since the sale ends tomorrow. For me, a Canadian, that works out to be cheaper to order them than drive down there and buy them.

Dr. Damage.


----------



## rl1856

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Catalogues in hand.
> 
> Christmas 1985: "Two New Colors in Our Famous Button-Down Oxfords. Your choice of solid colors in our own make oxford shirts has now been expanded to include green and helio... Rich yarn-dyed solids in blue, white, pink, stone, helio, yellow, green, ecru or peach."


I had a helio BD- Xmass presant that year, the girls loved it when I got back to college in Jan. BB also made a deep mauve/fuschia in a pinpoint BD- wore that one alot with a charcoal shetland (also BB with numerical size).

What I really miss are: the pink candy stripe BD and the solid pinpoint with a non contrasting golf or club collar.

Best,

Ross


----------



## stanshall

> quote:_Originally posted by VS_
> 
> I've just run across this: trad fabrics for the home. (Seersucker, etc)
> 
> https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/main/archives/003023.html#more


Nice post, V "Steak and Stilton" S!


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by PJC in NoVa_
> 
> Actually, Brooks carries ecru as a regularly available color in its RTW original oxford bd shirts:
> 
> https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ection_Id=204&Product_Id=500031&Parent_Id=203
> 
> Ecru (along w/ light blue, white, pink, and yellow) has always been one of the "big 5" trad shades for oxfords.
> 
> I haven't seen the film in a while, but IIRC the shirt that Cary Grant has brought to him (along w/ trousers) so he can escape from the mental hospital in "North by Northwest" is a Brooks bd oxford in ecru.
> 
> I favor ecru (or "cream") shirts myself (albeit typically w/ a collar other than a bd and in a cloth finer than an oxford) as a superior alternative to white for wear with earthier tones such as most tweeds and also my gray suits with rust, ochre, or tannish stripings.
> 
> PJC in NoVa


PJ: you sure that Grant wore a ecru collared Brooks BD in that film? I always thought it was white!


----------



## jrleague

The only thing I usually buy at Brooks is their polo bd's, and at 3 for $150, they're a bargain. At 3 for $114, they're an absolute steal. In my honest opinion, having owned all the "trad" dress shirt makers available currently (KG, Gitman, Mercer, Press' many makers, Andover's makers, Hathaway dead stock), the Brooks BD is the hands down best value in terms of price-to-product ratio.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by jrleague_
> 
> The only thing I usually buy at Brooks is their polo bd's, and at 3 for $150, they're a bargain. At 3 for $114, they're an absolute steal. In my honest opinion, having owned all the "trad" dress shirt makers available currently (KG, Gitman, Mercer, Press' many makers, Andover's makers, Hathaway dead stock), the Brooks BD is the hands down best value in terms of price-to-product ratio.


Of your list above, Kenneth Gordon doesn't make a supima oxford, only the pinpoint, right?


----------



## Doctor Damage

Can someone comment on the BB Golden Fleece supima oxfords? They say they are "garment-washed for softness" -- does this affect longevity?

Dr. Damage


----------



## williamkazak

"What's wrong with Polo? They've kept the preppy look alive, while slightly updating to appeal to today's generation."

Right. But who fits into Polo shirts?
The necks are too small in the sml lineups.
And, the banded sleeves on the short sleeved polo shirts are too tight!
I prefer hemmed sleeves on my polo shirts.
My neck is 17-171/2. 



William Kazak


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Can someone comment on the BB Golden Fleece supima oxfords? They say they are "garment-washed for softness" -- does this affect longevity?
> 
> Dr. Damage


I don't see why it wouldn't. Those Golden Fleece supima oxford's have the logo on the chest don't they?


----------



## Horace

Gentlemen,

in another thread, my colleague Giona reminded me of a thread I started around the same time this thread began -- a bit quixotic, though my heart was in the right place. At any rate, for your amusement, you'll see all the usual suspects here. It's titled something like
"Don't buy Italian Clothing: a plea for American and British Goods". Some of the irony was lost in translation, as it were.



Tally ho,

Horace


----------



## arnoldgale

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> It has been a pleasure to read so many excellent posts regarding the American/Trad look. Very impressive indeed!
> 
> I never wear cuff-linked shirts; for that matter, I never wear English spread collared shirts. Furthermore, I remain committed to plain/flat-front trousers and undarted sacks. So, why do I bother to sing the praises of Ben Silver? The answer is twofold: first, everything I've purchased from the Prenners has held up well; second, Ben Silver is one of the few remaining haberdasheries that offers undarted upper patch w/ patch-and-flap Harris Tweeds with a center vent, not to mention 3 1/4" regimentals and thick, beefy oxford cloth button down's (featuring an almost 4" collar) that remind one of what Troy used to manufacture. These days I prefer either Mercer & Sons or the Ben Silver "beefy" oxford.
> 
> That is to say, while they continue to get quite a bit "wrong" (the pleats, the darts, the spread collars, the cuff links, etc.), they get quite a lot right. Overpriced? Maybe, but I dare someone to find an unfused upper patch w/ patch-and-flap Harris Tweed for under $500. Theirs is made by Southwick, which is not cheap anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ. Go into the Andover Shop in Cambridge and you will find reasonably priced Southwick-brand tweeds. Much cheaper than Silver.
> 
> Also, I have nothing against spread collar or French-cuffed shirts. Or even forward-pleats, which I am happy to see, Silver has. As does Andover. Silver just puts it on thick.
> 
> But these are just minor complaints. Cable Car, Carroll & Co., and Silver are more yiddish than British (to reverse the motto of Carroll & Co) -- but at least they carry-on the Anglo-American thing.
> 
> To the person who mentioned disappointment with J. Press: some of the suits I've bough appear to be fused -- but I haven't minded them. As for the shirts -- I've only had problems with one of their Canadian-make shirts and I don't think anyone save me has mentioned a prob. with their shirts on this forum.
Click to expand...

In fact, their Southwick-made American blazer in 130s Loro Piano is something of a bargain. The standard in-stock Southwick blazer is eithr 110s or 120s, and is not upper patch w/ patch-and-flap.

Regarding the Orvis Harris Tweeds: be careful. Take a close look at the button placement. Yes, they're undarted and center-vented, but the top button is much lower than it should be--much lower, for instance, than the J. Press sack. This results in an awkward-looking lapel roll. The bottom button is lower than the top of the pocket flaps, which is, well, not ideal. Also, the weight much too light. In the Northeast, we need a good bit more than a "featherweight" Harris Tweed.

I suppose everyone has seen Brooks' saddle-shouldered shetland crewneck's. I can confirm the Madison Avenue Brooks looks great, complete with cashmere and shetland woven in Scotland, and several trousers and sportcoats made in the USA.

Harris

[/quote]
[/quote]

Arnie


----------



## arnoldgale

[Horace, have you visited Berrier Ltd. in Easton, Maryland? A finer independent haberdashery would difficult to find. By the way, "more Yiddish than British?" How so?

Arnie


----------



## NoVaguy

this is truly the thread that dare not die....


----------



## n/a

This is in response to jrleague's point that, for the $, the Brooks oxfords are still great. 

Agreed. Just picked up a couple. I'm pleased.

After seeing all the Brooks models sporting Rolexes, then noting the presence of plain, conservative Rolexes on the wrists of several customers in the 346, I'm now more convinced than ever that this 
() is the watch to sport with a nice trad ensemble. With a grosgrain ribbon band, of course.

Good call, jrleague. The BBOCBD remains a great bargain.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## xcubbies

I've been lurking over this forum for months now and finally registered with Andy Forums, thinking I would say hello and introduce myself. 

I've been working overseas for the UN the last 20 years or so, introducing oxford buttondowns and chinos to some of the hellholes in Africa and Asia. Now I'm based in Europe and have shifted more from from LL Bean to J. Press to be deal with the more somber working environment. Actually, after looking in shops here for basic items the prices at J. Press and Brooks Brothers are no longer so staggering. 

I enjoy reading postings from other folks who appreciate wearing basic classics year after year and are not slaves to fashion and logos.

RLH


----------



## Patrick06790

> quote:
> Good call, jrleague. The *BBOCBD* remains a great bargain.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


*B*rooks *B*rothers *O*bsessive-*C*ompulsive *B*uying *D*isorder?


----------



## Trip_Bradford

Um, I don't really think you can wear a rolex with a ribbon band. A timex, yes, a rolex, no. A rolex is a pretty heavy watch, and the thin band would allow to flop around.
And besides, I don't think a rolex is trad at all. A key point in trad is understand quality for your money, and rolex definitely is not that. From my experience, at least, the most traditional men I know wear IWC watches, and Longines during the week - some of the best values you can find in watches today.


----------



## Khnelben

Many of you might have noticed that GANT, especially in it's Ivy League University line is sticking to the Trad thing, although introducing modern and young looks.

Any ideas on that, do many people here buy GANT?


----------



## FormerlyTM

Did someone say Trad?

`The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom.' - Lord Acton


----------



## DownSouth

I've always worn button-down shirts and favored plain front pants which I guess puts me in the trad category.

I have always been curious as to WHO decided many years ago that ALL men wanted to wear pants with "pleats", which I hate. It seemed for many recent years that plain front pants were almost impossible to find, very frustrating.

It is good to see that plain front pants are finally becoming readily available at the men's store where I shop.


----------



## FormerlyTM

DownSouth,

I may be completely wrong, but I think that the resurgence of plain fronts is due to designers like Kenneth Cole/Slates/CK when they started making "technical" men's business clothing a few years back. Plain fronts are "cleaner" and were adopted by designers looking to create a more modern, sleek look. As this look took hold amongst the younger crowd, the more staid retailers cashed in on this look in an effort to capture the younger demographic; hence the resurgence of plain front trousers.

Cheers,

TM

`The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom.' - Lord Acton


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by DownSouth_
> 
> I have always been curious as to WHO decided many years ago that ALL men wanted to wear pants with "pleats", which I hate. It seemed for many recent years that plain front pants were almost impossible to find, very frustrating.


I think that in their way, pleated trousers (esp. forward pleats) can be very elegant. Esp. those with a longer rise and worn with braces.

I like plain front too though and that's what I get with my Press gear (of course).


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Catalogues in hand.
> 
> Spring 1982: "Our Famous Oxfords. This celebrated shirt is made in our own workrooms of an exclusive long staple Pima cotton oxford cloth. It features our button-down Polo collar and long sleeves. Blue, yellow, white, pink, ecru, stone or peach."
> 
> Spring 1985: "In blue, pink, white, peach, yellow, stone or ecru."
> 
> Summer 1985: "our celebrated own make shirt of exclusively woven long staple Pima cotton oxford... Choose blue, yellow, ecru, peach, stone, white or pink."
> 
> Christmas 1985: "Two New Colors in Our Famous Button-Down Oxfords. Your choice of solid colors in our own make oxford shirts has now been expanded to include green and helio... Rich yarn-dyed solids in blue, white, pink, stone, helio, yellow, green, ecru or peach."


Ah, old Rojo, Trad Historian and Archivist,

I've seen that green, mentioned in the Christmas '85 catalog, well before that date -- there's one in the Paper Chase film, c. 1973.


----------



## Horace

An ad from Rogers Peet of Prep/College style, c. 1948


----------



## xcubbies

After reading the 'stockpiling' thread I decided that it was time to unpack some of the BB oxfords I bought a few years back on sale and put them in the closet. I realized that many of them have the blue label, not the more traditional red. Further, some were "made in USA of imported fabric" and others were made in Malaysia.

I've gone through the American/Trad thread and see that the differences were discussed but no clear decision was commonly arrived at. I saw a disturbing reference to non-iron shirts made in Malaysia. None of the shirts I have a reference to this, but should I be alarmed?

Can anyone advise?


----------



## 3 Button Bob

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Contra RJ, I will add to the thread by throwing in my latest thrift find from yesterday: a charcoal and white herringbone tweed sport coat by *Norman Hilton*. Three-button roll to two, no darts. Fits great. Other than some wear to the leather buttons on the sleeves it looks like it came new out of the shop just yesterday. Harris, you'll appreciate this, it was originally sold at "Richard's of Mountain Brook." All for the very Trad price of $3.88 (marked down from $4.88). I suppose it would sell in the $500-$700 range these days (I see B. Silver sells their Norman Hilton blazer for $995.)


----------



## 3 Button Bob

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Contra RJ, I will add to the thread by throwing in my latest thrift find from yesterday: a charcoal and white herringbone tweed sport coat by *Norman Hilton*. Three-button roll to two, no darts. Fits great. Other than some wear to the leather buttons on the sleeves it looks like it came new out of the shop just yesterday. Harris, you'll appreciate this, it was originally sold at "Richard's of Mountain Brook." All for the very Trad price of $3.88 (marked down from $4.88). I suppose it would sell in the $500-$700 range these days (I see B. Silver sells their Norman Hilton blazer for $995.)


Richards of Mountain Brook was a store in Birmingham AL that closed in the early eighties. The Store was a Trad lovers dream. He only carried 3 button sack Norman Hiltons and button down shirts and he would travel to England for aquiring Holland & Sherry fabrics for MTM Norman Hilton Suits. After his store closed he went to work for another store in Birmingham and has now retired. When Norman Hilton announced it was closing its doors in 95 or 96 he called me to get my last order in.

This man Richard "Dick" Howell should be in the Trad Hall of Fame.


----------



## Literide

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Catalogues in hand.
> 
> Spring 1982: "Our Famous Oxfords. This celebrated shirt is made in our own workrooms of an exclusive long staple Pima cotton oxford cloth. It features our button-down Polo collar and long sleeves. Blue, yellow, white, pink, ecru, stone or peach."
> 
> Spring 1985: "In blue, pink, white, peach, yellow, stone or ecru."
> 
> Summer 1985: "our celebrated own make shirt of exclusively woven long staple Pima cotton oxford... Choose blue, yellow, ecru, peach, stone, white or pink."
> 
> Christmas 1985: "Two New Colors in Our Famous Button-Down Oxfords. Your choice of solid colors in our own make oxford shirts has now been expanded to include green and helio... Rich yarn-dyed solids in blue, white, pink, stone, helio, yellow, green, ecru or peach."
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, old Rojo, Trad Historian and Archivist,
> 
> I've seen that green, mentioned in the Christmas '85 catalog, well before that date -- there's one in the Paper Chase film, c. 1973.
Click to expand...

Havent seen the yellow since about that year (85)


----------



## AlanC

Vintage Brooks Bros. madras shirt on ebay:


----------



## wby

3 Button Bob,

I picked up a Norman Hilton three-piece tweed suit at an estate sale a few years back for about $5. The label shows it was from Richard's of Mountain Brook. It fits well enough to wear to costume parties - it looks as if it could have been made in the 1930s, though I suspect it is actually from the 80s. 

I am sorry that I never got to visit this establishment. I assume that Harrison Ltd. has now taken its place for Mountain Brook (and greater Birmingham area) trads.


----------



## n/a

I know Harrison of Mountain Brook well. Great little shop. Typical gear: Aldens, Robert Talbott, Gitman, Southwick.


----------



## marc_au

this topic never dies!

regards: The Shooman[]

*GR8MAN (The shooman) B8MAN.*


----------



## marc_au

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Vintage Brooks Bros. madras shirt on ebay:


The enthusiasm over all this patch madras business still makes me wonder. l just don't understand it. Alan, that ebay shirt looks really junky and cheap because of all those horrible coloured patterns. What's the storey son?

*GR8MAN (The shooman) B8MAN.*


----------



## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by wby_
> 
> 3 Button Bob,
> 
> I picked up a Norman Hilton three-piece tweed suit at an estate sale a few years back for about $5. The label shows it was from Richard's of Mountain Brook. It fits well enough to wear to costume parties - it looks as if it could have been made in the 1930s, though I suspect it is actually from the 80s.
> 
> I am sorry that I never got to visit this establishment. I assume that Harrison Ltd. has now taken its place for Mountain Brook (and greater Birmingham area) trads.


I've seen a couple of Richard's of Mountain Brook _very_ narrow ties at thrift stores lately.

Are either of you familiar with Lupo's of Mountain Brook (I have thrift Oxxford from there) or Harwell's of Birmingham (aka, Sons & Harwell, I see lots of stuff from Harwell's, including Oxxford and some great ties)?

I'll be in Mountain Brook later this morning although no time to stop in Harrison's today.

Marc_au, madras is a great fabric. That particular shirt is not my favorite or my size otherwise I probably would have purchased it and _then_ posted it to the forum. At any rate, to be clear on terms, that is not patch madras, but just regular old madras. Patch is when various madras patterns are cut into smaller squares and then patched together.


----------



## FormerlyTM

Marc_au,

I am fond of madras, both patch and regular, vbecasue it is almost as cool as linen but doesn't wrinkle as soon as you put it on. 

Cheers,

TM

`The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom.' - Lord Acton


----------



## 3 Button Bob

> quote:_Originally posted by wby_
> 
> 3 Button Bob,
> 
> I picked up a Norman Hilton three-piece tweed suit at an estate sale a few years back for about $5. The label shows it was from Richard's of Mountain Brook. It fits well enough to wear to costume parties - it looks as if it could have been made in the 1930s, though I suspect it is actually from the 80s.
> 
> I am sorry that I never got to visit this establishment. I assume that Harrison Ltd. has now taken its place for Mountain Brook (and greater Birmingham area) trads.
> 
> Actually, Richard "Dick" worked at Harrisons just before retirement.


----------



## 3 Button Bob

Don Lupo now works for the City of Birmingham


> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by wby_
> 
> 3 Button Bob,
> 
> I picked up a Norman Hilton three-piece tweed suit at an estate sale a few years back for about $5. The label shows it was from Richard's of Mountain Brook. It fits well enough to wear to costume parties - it looks as if it could have been made in the 1930s, though I suspect it is actually from the 80s.
> 
> I am sorry that I never got to visit this establishment. I assume that Harrison Ltd. has now taken its place for Mountain Brook (and greater Birmingham area) trads.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a couple of Richard's of Mountain Brook _very_ narrow ties at thrift stores lately.
> 
> Are either of you familiar with Lupo's of Mountain Brook (I have thrift Oxxford from there) or Harwell's of Birmingham (aka, Sons & Harwell, I see lots of stuff from Harwell's, including Oxxford and some great ties)?
> 
> I'll be in Mountain Brook later this morning although no time to stop in Harrison's today.
> 
> Marc_au, madras is a great fabric. That particular shirt is not my favorite or my size otherwise I probably would have purchased it and _then_ posted it to the forum. At any rate, to be clear on terms, that is not patch madras, but just regular old madras. Patch is when various madras patterns are cut into smaller squares and then patched together.
Click to expand...


----------



## Doctor Damage

For the truly interested, the following site has much info about supima cotton:
www.supima.com

No doubt Andy has mentioned it elsewhere, but I cannot find any reference.

Dr. Dmge.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here's an interesting article on Princetonian dress...I'm sure the regulars here can shoot a dozen holes in the details cited, but a fun short read in any case.



Dr. Damage.


----------



## Horace

I just noticed that Wikipedia.org has articles on J Press and American Trad.


----------



## n/a

On American Trad? You're joking.


----------



## FormerlyTM

I have to think that someone that frequents this board wrote those definitions. So whomever it was...fess up!

Horace?

Harris?

Patrick?


----------



## Doctor Damage

> quote:I have to think that someone that frequents this board wrote those definitions. So whomever it was...fess up!


But it has to be one of the members here who doesn't like Trad, since the Wikipedia description is not only incomplete and superficial, but slightly mocking in tone. It also implies a historical style, which is very much not the case since its adherents are still going strong.

Somewhere fairly recently in this forum someone made a post that suggested that Trad was a dead style, and that Harris should be it's official historian...find that member and we have our culprit.

Dr. Dmge.


----------



## n/a

Wasn't me.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:I have to think that someone that frequents this board wrote those definitions. So whomever it was...fess up!
> 
> 
> 
> But it has to be one of the members here who doesn't like Trad, since the Wikipedia description is not only incomplete and superficial, but slightly mocking in tone. It also implies a historical style, which is very much not the case since its adherents are still going strong.
> 
> Somewhere fairly recently in this forum someone made a post that suggested that Trad was a dead style, and that Harris should be it's official historian...find that member and we have our culprit.
> 
> Dr. Dmge.
Click to expand...

I thought the Press write up was pretty good.


----------



## Patrick06790

Pretty superficial. I don't sense the Unseen Hand of an AAACer here.


----------



## n/a

Maybe a legit definition should be provided to the Wilikpedia folks.


----------



## Doctor Damage

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Maybe a legit definition should be provided to the Wilikpedia folks.


Yeah, I was thinking that. The current definition seems like a good description of a "preppy" look (shudder), not Trad, and doesn't even mention grey flannels! There should also be some mention of the underlying philosophies of Trad, such as thrift or timeless style or inter-generational continuity.

I think you could slap together something good simply by glancing at the various Trad threads on this forum in the last 8 months or so. They are quite comprehensive and hammering together a bunch of talking points would allow for fine-tuning.

Dr. D.


----------



## 80FJ40

I have 6 BB pinpoints in my closet that are crap. Tried to buy poplin BD and salesman convinced me that they no longer make them and pinpoint was the replacement. No bargain at $30.

I think MTM service has really changed. Up until early 90s, one could order "original style" (coat, not ultra-trad popover) shirts with zero shaping, long tails, locker loop, button on rear of collar, for about $70. Collar choices also included tab w/ metal collar button, not snap. Don't see these options but possibly available. Does anybody wear BB popovers? There is a quote somewhere about an old gentleman who refuses to wear the new coat style shirt, saying he always felt like his johnson was hanging out.

80FJ40


----------



## Doctor Damage

Below are some fun photos from the Getty Archives. They are labelled as follows: (1) "Buzz gets his girl", location unknown, (2) Princeton engineering students, and (3) Princeton undergrads with their dean.

Dr. Dam.

https://imageshack.us

https://imageshack.us

https://imageshack.us


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by 80FJ40_
> 
> I think MTM service has really changed. Up until early 90s, one could order "original style" (coat, not ultra-trad popover) shirts with zero shaping, long tails, locker loop, button on rear of collar, for about $70. Collar choices also included tab w/ metal collar button, not snap. Don't see these options but possibly available. Does anybody wear BB popovers? There is a quote somewhere about an old gentleman who refuses to wear the new coat style shirt, saying he always felt like his johnson was hanging out.
> 
> 80FJ40


Now this is tradly. Perhaps the most tradly post yet. the pullover shirt. I've got one from way back that I inherited. And one from Polo. Both are now too small for me in the neck and sleeves. I wonder when the locker loop (aka "*** tag"), rear button, and the pullover style disappeared and the front pocket and coat style came into being. I bet Style Student would know. He has not completely wandered from the Trad fold.


----------



## familyman

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Below are some fun photos from the Getty Archives. They are labelled as follows: (1) "Buzz gets his girl", location unknown, (2) Princeton engineering students, and (3) Princeton undergrads with their dean.
> 
> Dr. Dam.


Holy white socks with penny loafers batman! Acceptable in a trad sense or simply a product of that particular style in the 50's? Nice pictures, I do need a better selection of khakis, they really are a part of the uniform I'm learning.


----------



## Patrick06790

Politics of Trad update:

At the Kent, Conn., special town meeting last night buttondowns outnumbered "other" on men (by my unofficial and unscientific count) approx. 35-2 (one of the two being me, the other a gent running for selectman who affects an earnest look and never wears a jacket. He also resembles a giraffe).

Two men with ties. (Not including me.)

About ten men in some form of sport coat.

One suit (w/ buttondown).

No pocket squares (except, of course, me). One man with white hanky, but he blew in it.

Gratuitous and stubborn wearing of boat shoes and wool socks with any sort of pants.

Also wearing of man clogs with otherwise Tradly casual ensembles.

Where does the Trad stand in the matter of man clogs?


----------



## xcubbies

Where can I get Butch Stick these days to complete the outfit?


----------



## Coolidge24

Damage

Great pictures, looks like a page from my dad's school yearbook, especially the white socks with loafers and shorter pants.

I think Buzz in the top pic is wearing a madras print on cotton belt like the ones they still sell at Press. Classic.


----------



## jmorgan32

Look at the guys loafers in the top pic standing by the tree. If those are Bass Weejuns, they definitely need to rething their current marketing strategy. Those shoes look great! They look like an Alden, but you just think of the typical college kid in those days wearing Bass.
Heck, for all I know, Bass could have made a shell cordovan then and it probably wasn't that expensive. I am not sure of the Bass "history", but think they have always used calfskin though. 

I just look at the current shoe they offer and shake my head. Looks like a damn glistening bing cherry.


----------



## rojo

Someone posted in one of the Weejun threads that his mother blanched at buying him a $12 pair of Weejuns to wear to school in 1962. Adjusted for inflation, $12 in 1962 is $74.10 today.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Someone posted in one of the Weejun threads that his mother blanched at buying him a $12 pair of Weejuns to wear to school in 1962. Adjusted for inflation, $12 in 1962 is $74.10 today.


Though I wonder if that index takes into account the (relatively) off-the-chart cost of skilled labor these days.


----------



## rojo

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Someone posted in one of the Weejun threads that his mother blanched at buying him a $12 pair of Weejuns to wear to school in 1962. Adjusted for inflation, $12 in 1962 is $74.10 today.
> 
> 
> 
> Though I wonder if that index takes into account the (relatively) off-the-chart cost of skilled labor these days.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it doesn't. It's based on the Consumer Price Index, which says $12 in 1962 is about $74 today.


----------



## n/a

How common was the white socks-with-loafers look?


----------



## jmorgan32

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> How common was the white socks-with-loafers look?


I called my Dad the other day after seeing this post, and he said they wore wool "Adler" socks with loafers a lot. You may remember them. In the 60's, all the NBA guys wore them. They were almost off-white/cream and very itchy. (at least to me) It was thought they caused fewer blisters than cotton in those days. (players wore cotton under and Adlers over them.) Too much info about basketball socks? Sorry. They were the same socks however. (if you remember, they have a very thin orange stripe across the toe kind of like Gold Toe socks have the gold toe)


----------



## jmorgan32

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> How common was the white socks-with-loafers look?


Hey Harris, Quickie here....Do you have/like the grosgrain watchbands from Eljo's? Longwing posted to me that they do indeed have goldtone buckles on some and that is what I need. Wondering if you think they are any good. Saw a pic, and I have never been a fan of the brass "grommets" on the holes. At least with my Brooks bands, they tend to pop out before the band is worn out.
Thanks, 
Joe


----------



## kforton

Will J Press make a suit in 54L? I can't wait until I am a 46 L to dress trad, and I don't have $1200 for a Southwick suit right now.


----------



## rojo

With one exception, I don't see anything but white or light socks in the photos above, whether worn with loafers or other shoes. It seems to have been part of the look at the time. Notice some things in the last photo: one young man actually has his feet on the table, right in front of the dean, which does however let us see his loafers and white socks. There appear to be not one but two ashtrays on the coffee table, with what seem to be one more ashtray on each end table. At least the two on the coffee table appear to be partly full, and there is actually a cigarette in the hand of the young man in the upper left.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> With one exception, I don't see anything but white or light socks in the photos above, whether worn with loafers or other shoes. It seems to have been part of the look at the time. Notice some things in the last photo: one young man actually has his feet on the table, right in front of the dean, which does however let us see his loafers and white socks. There appear to be not one but two ashtrays on the coffee table, with what seem to be one more ashtray on each end table. At least the two on the coffee table appear to be partly full, and there is actually a cigarette in the hand of the young man in the upper left.


In the book Hatless Jack there was a mentionof a company that made white socks and blue socks with the red and white stripe at top -- JFK wore them sailing. Starts with an R. These were a popular brand back in the day, as the kids now phrase it.


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> How common was the white socks-with-loafers look?


Well, I only have my evidence from my dad's 4 prep school yearbooks (1960-1963). Everyone is doing it in them. And I mean everyone.

Coolidge


----------



## rojo

Yes, that famous series of photos of JFK and JBK watching the 1962 America's Cup races shows him with dark shoes and white socks, mid calf, with one navy and one light blue stripe near the top.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Yes, that famous series of photos of JFK and JBK watching the 1962 America's Cup races shows him with dark shoes and white socks, mid calf, with one navy and one light blue stripe near the top.


Press offered something similar last season -- though they were out of my size.


----------



## rojo

My mistake: JFK's socks in those photos are below the calf. I meant to say either "mid leg" or "below the calf" and it came out mid-calf, which is wrong by a couple of inches.

And yes, I do remember that Press offered something very similar last season. I almost bought a pair when I ordered my belts and tie and sportcoat from that catalogue.


----------



## n/a

I would love to have a source for those cream-colored socks about which someone wrote earlier. 

I remember that either Willis & Geiger or J. Peterman (I think the former) offered them a few years ago. I believe they were advertised as "loafer socks" and made mention of how they were worn with chinos by Ivy Leaguers in the 50s.

It's not easy to find that unique cream (or "off white") crew sock. 

-Harris


----------



## familyman

Though my young age prevents me from really having a clue about this whole socks issue, I swear I read that those socks were close to white when new but quickly aged to that cream color. Had something do to with the wool and a funny aging process. Purely heresay, but I've had a number of pairs of 'white' wool hunting socks end up very off white before they wore out, and it wasn't from getting dirty, it's just how they aged.


----------



## jmorgan32

Did a Google search last night after thinking about those old cream wool socks and found 2 sites about Adler socks. One was about some gal and summer camp in 1955. Like a journal. She talked about the "cool" girls all wearing their white Adler brand socks.

The other site had a PDF file with some circa 1950 ads. One was for Old Spice and the other for Adler socks. Some guy "getting all the ladies" due to his Adlers or something like that. The socks were made in Cincy, OH and in the ad the retail was $1.00!!

I remember wearing some in early Jr. High basketball and they itched like all hell. Finally everyone went to cotton. For sure, that is what they wore with loafers in the 50's. They are thick too! Must have had to get your shoes a little large or it would have been snug. (really no thicker than cotton sweat socks of today, but certainly not thin like a Gold Toe wool blend dress sock.)


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I would love to have a source for those cream-colored socks about which someone wrote earlier.
> 
> I remember that either Willis & Geiger or J. Peterman (I think the former) offered them a few years ago. I believe they were advertised as "loafer socks" and made mention of how they were worn with chinos by Ivy Leaguers in the 50s.
> 
> It's not easy to find that unique cream (or "off white") crew sock.
> 
> -Harris


You might try Wigwam socks -- I believe they're still made in the USA. The have a "natural" color that is might be exactly what you're looking for.

Very tradly -- I used to wear them at school. My family bought them by the box for all of us.


----------



## shuman

I also wore Wigwams. Family tradition of sorts. I remember wearing my loafers with my white sweat socks and jeans or khakis to school. I didnt even know it was right or wrong, it just seemed comfortable. Go figure. Trad at heart!


----------



## n/a

How about these?

https://www.amazingsocks.com/web/pid/F0100/item.asp

(the natural)

(the natural, third from left)

I believe the first one is the classic, traditional (lightweight) wool Wigwam that many have chosen to wear with loafers.

Feedback is welcome.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## jmorgan32

Here is a paragraph from the website I referenced above. (for some reason the address won't paste)

For Cabin 22, 1955 was the magic summer. That was the year we turned 14. We no longer craved the attention of the most popular girls; we wanted the affections of the best boys. "In adolescence, a big part of the camp experience was having a boyfriend," says Beth, "and I didn't have one, ever." And without a boyfriend, we were miserable. At our camp, the best boys and most fashionable girls came from Buffalo, which existed in Ontario mythology as a stylish mecca for shopping and Sunday drinking. Kids from Buffalo set the sartorial standard. One year, they came with *white wool Adler socks*, madras plaid Bermuda shorts and little white dickies. The following year, it was no socks, khaki cut-offs and neckerchiefs. It was hard to keep up. "You'd think you had it right," Susan Morgan laughs. "Then you'd get to camp, and those Buffalo kids had stuff you'd never seen!"


----------



## jmorgan32

these damn pdf files won't let me paste the address for a link. it is probably me - I am a caveman with software.

here is a selected quote from this neat old ad:

THE CLEAN WHITE SOCK
He not only wears the clean white sock; he is 'clean white sock." It's a kind of confidence
that comes from knowing the right thing to do; even if he decides not to do
it. His clean white socks are by *Adler*. His girl is by his side, every bit as 'clean white
sock" as he is. Naturally they don't always wear white socks, they just act like they do.
People who really swing are wearing the Adler S C shrink controlled wool sock. $1.00.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> How about these?
> 
> https://www.amazingsocks.com/web/pid/F0100/item.asp
> 
> (the natural)
> 
> (the natural, third from left)
> 
> I believe the first one is the classic, traditional (lightweight) wool Wigwam that many have chosen to wear with loafers.
> 
> Feedback is welcome.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


The first link, with the wigwam, doesn't look quite right because it's got poly in it. I remember them being all cotton or all wool. I always wore the all cotton.

Bean had them for a while and I noticed in the last year or two when I was looking for something else that Vermont Country Store also had them.


----------



## Doctor Damage

> quote:The first link, with the wigwam, doesn't look quite right because it's got poly in it. I remember them being all cotton or all wool. I always wore the all cotton.
> 
> Bean had them for a while and I noticed in the last year or two when I was looking for something else that Vermont Country Store also had them.


That poly/wool mix should last a long time, however, during wear.

DD


----------



## n/a

The bright (bleached) white--I can't do them with my shell cordovan loafers. I much prefer the undyed natural. What you see are the only Wigwam socks offered in that color. I couldn't find them on the Bean or Vermont Country Store site.


----------



## familyman

So this is an acceptable wear with khakis sock? What are other trad socks with khakis suggestions. I know sockless is preferred and with the recent purchase of timberland boat shoes I'm down to socks 2-3 times a week, but should one generally subscribe to the previous threads about socks with khakis (color wise) or the wigwam socks or bright colors or what? What's trad, what's not trad as far as socks with khakis goes. The devil is in the details as they say, and socks are certainly a detail.


----------



## boatshoes

> quote:_Originally posted by familyman_
> 
> So this is an acceptable wear with khakis sock? What are other trad socks with khakis suggestions. I know sockless is preferred and with the recent purchase of timberland boat shoes I'm down to socks 2-3 times a week, but should one generally subscribe to the previous threads about socks with khakis (color wise) or the wigwam socks or bright colors or what? What's trad, what's not trad as far as socks with khakis goes. The devil is in the details as they say, and socks are certainly a detail.


I think it would be trad to not care and bordering on costume to obsess over this detail.


----------



## familyman

> quote:_Originally posted by boatshoes_
> I think it would be trad to not care and bordering on costume to obsess over this detail.


Clearly it would be trad to wear just what mum always bought you, or what your dear old dad wore. In fact, it's most trad to have grown up with all this so none of it has to be thought of. However mum bought me white cotton socks, dad wore jeans and sweatshits and if I were to not think about my clothes you'd be repulsed at what I'd be wearing. So I thought I'd ask.


----------



## crs

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> How about these?
> 
> https://www.amazingsocks.com/web/pid/F0100/item.asp
> 
> (the natural)
> 
> (the natural, third from left)
> 
> I believe the first one is the classic, traditional (lightweight) wool Wigwam that many have chosen to wear with loafers.
> 
> Feedback is welcome.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


I like these Wigwams, in khaki color, with chinos and loafers. They are thick and comfy, and when they fade they are not much darker than stone chinos:

https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=53075


----------



## n/a

I'm not sure how trad or not it is, but I'm just not going to wear bright, bleached white athletic crew socks with my Aldens. I don't care for the darker "khaki" color either. For me, the "natural" is perfect.


----------



## rojo

> quote:_Originally posted by familyman_
> 
> So this is an acceptable wear with khakis sock? What are other trad socks with khakis suggestions. I know sockless is preferred and with the recent purchase of timberland boat shoes I'm down to socks 2-3 times a week, but should one generally subscribe to the previous threads about socks with khakis (color wise) or the wigwam socks or bright colors or what? What's trad, what's not trad as far as socks with khakis goes. The devil is in the details as they say, and socks are certainly a detail.


With khakis I would wear either no socks or, because pictures are worth thousands of words, just about any of the several dozen options here:

https://www.jpressonline.com/hose.html

These should give you some ideas, anyway.

Pick the ones you like (argyle won't appeal to everyone) and what's in season (the Fair Isle socks, for example, are specific to cooler weather). If you like darker colors, I recommend the houndstooth, wool basic, and ribbed border. If saturated hues are more your style, pick red, yellow, or cobalt. Back at school, thick ragg wool socks in grey/white were popular. We used to jam them into our loafers.


----------



## meister

These opinions were furnished by individuals who know better than I but do not have the diplomacy to understand this is a quality family based web site.



Dear All (this is my mate Steve former Congressional politcal adviser extraordinaire)

When I visited the US in 1999 I was shocked at how everyone was dressed so 'casually'

No one seemed to care whether you were wearing a shirt or a polo shirt, a tie or open neck et cetera

Hailing from "A" (AUSTRALIA) where even in 40 degree Celsius heat a man is still expected to wear a suit and tie to the office i was unsettled by the laziness of it all

I too have availed myself of the consultancy of Mr Meister of Sydney - discount ties, shoes and shirts are his trademark 

Quality at a quantity price - seems to be his motto

Steve

-----
My answer to your question re the Trad American look. 



This is John an American ex OH via CA who lived in Aussie



Yesterday hundreds of college football teams played in the US. Millions attended the games and more millions watched on a couple dozen national TV stations. After all these games the lead story yesterday and today in the media was of a trad dress man with Jewish dreds.



Top ranked U of Southern California walked into the end zone for their third or so touchdown in the first quarter. The tailback flipped the ball after he scored to a spectator in trad dress standing next the end zone on the field. Snoop Dogg. Mr. Dogg thanked LeDale White by assuming the Heisman Trophy pose that yielded multi-millions af dollars of free publicity and sparked mock arguments and hitting by most, over half, of all three person wrap-up commentators yesterday. 



Itâ€™s the trad look that creates the attitude of Mr. Dogg. Mr. Whites post game comment, â€œOnly in LAâ€.



US menâ€™s look is based upon butt cracks. Full crack look is used by hillbillies working their stills, KKK members who use trad sheets to cover their cracks and by gays whose leather cowboy pants do not have a back. 



Half crack look is the trad look of the AFL-CIO and its members who are plumbers and anyone over six months pregnant, or at least the look on a male. 



Prison look is the aspiring black youth look. Underwear is half covered with skinny arsed kids briefs bunched up and lard arsed ones with a seam down their crack. 



Those whose pants with a belt are worn at their waists are religious nuts. 



Those whose pants are worn at the bottom of their rib cages are billionaire geeky programmers, or, thieves of ideas of geeks who wear their pants so their cracks show real good in their tight pants that almost reach down to the top of their white socks. 



I buy clothesâ€™ closeouts. Yesterday I bought Margaritaville flip-flops on line since this is fall in the North. When three button suits were the rage, I bought Oxxford two-button suits that are now the rage and ready to be fitted â€“ paid $500 for $2100 suits. I wear Churchâ€™s shoes that last me over 20 years. 



I have a clothing consultant in Sydney, Mr. Meister, who only allows me to purchase clothes in Gowings --- and only on sale. Now my Churchâ€™s will last longer because of stocking up on RW Williams kangaroo boots. 



When I returned to study screenwriting, I was issued a Levi, black T-shirt and training shoe uniform for interviews. 



Trad American look of seniors is closer to Mr Doggâ€™s look, wash and wear track suits with big strings instead of belts. 



IMO, since 70% of the members of the US Constitutional Convention were farmers, maybe 90% of the US population worked either as farmers or farm related. Thus, trad American look is farm wear. 

This is somewhat irreverent but as they used to say in the East End of London "never mind the quality just get the width"!


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by familyman_
> 
> So this is an acceptable wear with khakis sock? What are other trad socks with khakis suggestions. I know sockless is preferred and with the recent purchase of timberland boat shoes I'm down to socks 2-3 times a week, but should one generally subscribe to the previous threads about socks with khakis (color wise) or the wigwam socks or bright colors or what? What's trad, what's not trad as far as socks with khakis goes. The devil is in the details as they say, and socks are certainly a detail.
> 
> 
> 
> With khakis I would wear either no socks or, because pictures are worth thousands of words, just about any of the several dozen options here:
> 
> https://www.jpressonline.com/hose.html
> 
> These should give you some ideas, anyway.
> 
> Pick the ones you like (argyle won't appeal to everyone) and what's in season (the Fair Isle socks, for example, are specific to cooler weather). If you like darker colors, I recommend the houndstooth, wool basic, and ribbed border. If saturated hues are more your style, pick red, yellow, or cobalt. Back at school, thick ragg wool socks in grey/white were popular. We used to jam them into our loafers.
Click to expand...

I wish that Press had offered some more colors in their argyle; I dropped by a shop that sells Barbour today and found quite a nice Barbour argyles.

We used to wear light grey socks with our khakis and white Jack Purcells. Why not?

I'm going to poke around the net -- I reckon that Wigwam still makes 100% natural fabric socks in white or natural color. This poly stuff won't do. Even if it lasts longer.


----------



## n/a

"We used to wear light grey socks with our khakis and white Jack Purcells. Why not?"

Horace: I still do.


----------



## AlanC

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> I wish that Press had offered some more colors in their argyle; I dropped by a shop that sells Barbour today and found quite a nice Barbour argyles.


Check your local Marshall's. According to a thread at SF they have Pantherellas again, including argyles. I have a pair of Pantherella argyles that are quite nice.


----------



## xcubbies

These is a link for Campmor who carries the Wigwam Husky Wool sock, code:01091. Right color, but itchy.

https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=2009&memberId=12500226


----------



## n/a

After reading through this entire thread all I can say is, WOW!!! What a wealth of information here! I was convinced I was trad until I read some of the definitions provided by other members. Now, I am not so sure. My head is spinning...I need to lie down for a few minutes.


----------



## Markus

This is the Thread that Will Not Die.

chuckling...

Markus


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by xcubbies_
> 
> These is a link for Campmor who carries the Wigwam Husky Wool sock, code:01091. Right color, but itchy.
> 
> https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=2009&memberId=12500226


Husky. Love the Husky. -Harris


----------



## Horace

Looks like Press has some good quality gloves this season -- anyone inspect them?


----------



## GentleCheetah

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> Jimmy,
> 
> as someone who wears jeans and t-shirts and sweatshirts himself on occasion, I still must ask you to consider one of the main reasons beyond the lamenting of the loss of students dressing for games: tradition and a certain sense of cohesion and unity. Now while it's true that those same values may be promoted by idiots in face paint, do you not at least somewhat agree that the decline in sartorial standards at schools (be they secondary or college/Uni) bespeaks a loss in a sense of the importance, privilege, and seriousness of these insitutions -- institutions that have become "businesses" serving a consumer rather than a "student"?
> 
> I bemoan the loss of dressing for college more than I do this silly practice of business casual. It's the same with architecture. Schools traditionally followed the medieval model of arch., and it put into the mind of the student the idea that the place was older than him and would be there after him. He was there for it, and not the other way around. In a sense at least. Though it doesn't have to be a medieval, gothic arch. on campus. But it should be conservative, in should be grand, and it should endure in taste.
> 
> My point, I guess, is not so much that I disagree with your point about football games as much as I wanted to emphasize what I see as the symbolic importance of clothing and architecture and whanot as paying respect to something larger than ourselves (be it Andover, Harvard, The Corps, your family, your city, your country, etc).
> 
> I don't want to be an old stick in the mud, but maybe the loss of dressing for weddings reflects the fact that marriage is no longer taken as seriously.
> 
> Maybe it's not so much the clothing standards that we should be bemoaning as much as there are large cultural issues at work, and the bloody slobs that are around are simply a reflection of that.
> 
> So to get back to your post, I think levi's and sweatshirts are fine for games, but I do think it a pity that the student body doesn't dress as it used to for these events.
> 
> (And as we talked about pages ago in these threads -- it's still very possibly to subvert the dress code, while still showing a modicum of outward respect -- so I don't want to hear arguments from anyone about "individuality" and whatnot -- they don't wash with me. Real individuality is in thought and deed).


Horace, I like your writing as well as the message conveyed in above passages. A traditional attire, with style and a little formality, speaks of respect for the social environment, the culture, the institutions, the hosts and hostesses, the pedestrians on the street, the games, the players, the wife, the life, and the world.

The Gentle Cheetah


----------



## Hard2Fit

Fascinating thread.


----------



## jsqueeze

> quote:_Originally posted by jrleague_
> 
> I am a religious wearer of the "American traditional" look. All I have is sack suits/sports jackets, plain front trousers, and Alden slip-ons. And those great narrow J. Press ties and bowties.
> 
> And apparently there are a lot of other devotees to this style, because everytime I order from J. Press, I only receive about half of my order since everything else is out of stock. I just received two point collar dress shirts I ordered in June.
> 
> BTW, has anyone received their fall/winter J. Press catalog yet? Mine has never arrived.
> 
> J. Press - I'd pay them rent if they'd only let me move in.


Order direct fro me and I'll try to do a better job then the online service.Send me your name and address and ill send you a cat.asap
Ed
J.Press Inc.7 East 44 Street NYC 10017

Ed Evans


----------



## jsqueeze

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> I haven't seen my fall/winter catalogue from J. Press yet, but I've already decided that I need a pair of black gloves with cashmere lining and some Fair Isle socks, at the very least.
> 
> I ordered a short sleeve madras shirt from J. Press in June, along with some other shirts, but when I received the order a month later I found that the madras shirt I wanted was out of stock. When I called to find out which plaids were still available in my size, all they had left was the one that I (and apparently everyone else) thought was too ugly to wear. But my brother went to the Manhattan store and sent me one of the long sleeve madras shirts for my birthday last month. I like short sleeve best for riding my horses in the shade in the summer, but long sleeve to keep my arms from burning if I'm going to be in direct sunlight.
> 
> There's an interesting article by Michael Press Jr. (great-grandson of J. Press) about the American Traditional style here:
> 
> you need a salesman at the store dont count on the internet
> Ed Evans Ny store


----------



## Doctor Damage

More students, circa 1950s...

DD


----------



## shuman

Was J. Peterman ever a brand worn by Trads?

or Col. Littleton?


----------



## BostonScott

Doctor Damage, I love the way that guy on the left looks (except that he shows no shirt cuffs). That suit fits him beautifully! I want to look like that in a suit.


----------



## ROI

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I would love to have a source for those cream-colored socks about which someone wrote earlier.
> 
> I believe they were advertised as "loafer socks" and made mention of how they were worn with chinos by Ivy Leaguers in the 50s.
> 
> It's not easy to find that unique cream (or "off white") crew sock.
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I'm not sure how trad or not it is, but I'm just not going to wear bright, bleached white athletic crew socks with my Aldens. I don't care for the darker "khaki" color either. For me, the "natural" is perfect.
> 
> 
> 
> "We used to wear light grey socks with our khakis and white Jack Purcells. Why not?"
Click to expand...

I recognize the difficulty of finding that right off-white sock. For the last couple years I've been wearing a sock that is the color I want, but otherwise violates the spirit of the quest. It's a 95% merino/5% nylon Pantherella casual sock. It feels like fluffy cashmere and has the characteristically wide spaced rib pattern (maybe 10 by 1) of English casual socks. Worse, unlike a real sweatsock, the ribs do not terminate abruptly at the ankle bone, but extend down the instep like a dress sock. I stumbled on them during the winter sale at a far-flung shop I seldom visit; I snatched up the entire stock of three pairs and have been husbanding them since. They are not kosher (as the ones described by Harris are) because of the anti-Puritan element of luxury. But I'll be sorry when the last pair goes.

I suspect that the practice of Ivy Leaguers wearing sweat socks on non-sweating occasions probably arose because the one place you could count on getting clean socks was in the gym laundry room. My own college diverged slightly with grey ragg-like standard issue sweat socks. Accordingly, they were the commonplace fashion on my campus.

Another oddity from the same source - and I'll bet even more difficult to find now - was grey wool sweatshirts. They went through the same brutal washing regimen as all other gym clothes, but the size eventually reached an equillibrium point and stablized. People (men, since all the people at that time were men) wore them like crewneck sweaters, often inside out with the dense, off-white fleece showing. If I'd been thinking ahead, rare for me in college (or since), I'd have appropriated a few before graduation. Like the dishes with a cartoon of the college mascot fired into them and the monogrammed flatware in the dining hall, the wool sweatshirts are sweet history.

"The whole thing is performance and prowess and feats of association. Why don't critics talk about those things - what a feat it was to turn that that way, and what a feat it was to remember that, to be reminded of that by this? Scoring. You've got to score." Robert Frost


----------



## n/a

ROI, good post.

Since this inquiry began, I've made some phone calls and asked around. It seems that Wigwam, one of the older sock companies, is, in fact, considered a very (American) traditional sock, and was apparently the choice of many a 1950s-era devotee of the Ivy League look. While nylon is present, it seems that there's some consensus that the "number 100" is the classic:
https://www.amazingsocks.com/web/pid/F0100/item.asp

Apparently it was once 100% wool.

Somebody mentioned the Wigwam "Husky," which I gather is also a favorte from bygone days. It's advertised as "the true classic wool athletic sock":

Since I allow for a bit of "luxury" in terms of suits--(super 120s and cashmere-wool blends)--I'm going to throw caution to the wind by mentioning this sock, which looks not only comfy but also similar to what I'm after in terms of color and style:
https://www.polo.com/product/index....0781.1766306&page=2&nav=lhn&parentPage=family

Yet again Ralph provides a replica that's as close to the original as one can get. He did this three years ago with the maroon-navy 100% (heavy) wool tennis sweater.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> People (men, since all the people at that time were men) wore them like crewneck sweaters, often inside out with the dense, off-white fleece showing. If I'd been thinking ahead, rare for me in college (or since), I'd have appropriated a few before graduation. Like the dishes with a cartoon of the college mascot fired into them and the monogrammed flatware in the dining hall, the wool sweatshirts are sweet history.


I remember these -- a host of companies made them -- and then I think Russell and Champion were of the few makers to continue through the 80's, right? And then I don't know what happened.

But are you sure those crew necks were all wool or were they cotton and wool mix or something else?

Harris: good job on find the classic Wigwam. Now if they'd just make them fitted-sized, the way they used to.


----------



## n/a

PoloRL made a mostly (90% or so) wool sweatshirt in a heather gray color back in the 90s. A classic. I invested and wear it a lot during the winter months. Heavyweight. V-inset at neck and I believe it was also offered in a heather oatmeal color. If I knew how to use a digital camera I'd take a photo and post. They also offered sweatpant in the same material.

No logo/emblem.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## ROI

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Since I allow for a bit of "luxury" in terms of suits--(super 120s and cashmere-wool blends)--I'm going to throw caution to the wind by mentioning this sock, which looks not only comfy but also similar to what I'm after in terms of color and style:
> https://www.polo.com/product/index....0781.1766306&page=2&nav=lhn&parentPage=family
> 
> Yet again Ralph provides a replica that's as close to the original as one can get.


Ralph's ability to improve on the original, to reduce the original to the essential (nostalgic) elements, is a constant marvel and aggravation. My only comfort is how rarely he produces something original on his own.



> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> People (men, since all the people at that time were men) wore them like crewneck sweaters, often inside out with the dense, off-white fleece showing. If I'd been thinking ahead, rare for me in college (or since), I'd have appropriated a few before graduation. Like the dishes with a cartoon of the college mascot fired into them and the monogrammed flatware in the dining hall, the wool sweatshirts are sweet history.
> 
> 
> 
> I remember these -- a host of companies made them -- and then I think Russell and Champion were of the few makers to continue through the 80's, right? And then I don't know what happened.
> 
> But are you sure those crew necks were all wool or were they cotton and wool mix or something else?
Click to expand...

I don't know the exact fiber content. They were as dense and tough as boiled wool, which is what I assumed they were. I wouldn't be surprised to find cotton, horse hair, or barbed wire was also involved.

"The whole thing is performance and prowess and feats of association. Why don't critics talk about those things - what a feat it was to turn that that way, and what a feat it was to remember that, to be reminded of that by this? Scoring. You've got to score." Robert Frost


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Since I allow for a bit of "luxury" in terms of suits--(super 120s and cashmere-wool blends)--I'm going to throw caution to the wind by mentioning this sock, which looks not only comfy but also similar to what I'm after in terms of color and style:
> https://www.polo.com/product/index....0781.1766306&page=2&nav=lhn&parentPage=family
> 
> Yet again Ralph provides a replica that's as close to the original as one can get.
> 
> 
> 
> Ralph's ability to improve on the original, to reduce the original to the essential (nostalgic) elements, is a constant marvel and aggravation. My only comfort is how rarely he produces something original on his own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> People (men, since all the people at that time were men) wore them like crewneck sweaters, often inside out with the dense, off-white fleece showing. If I'd been thinking ahead, rare for me in college (or since), I'd have appropriated a few before graduation. Like the dishes with a cartoon of the college mascot fired into them and the monogrammed flatware in the dining hall, the wool sweatshirts are sweet history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I remember these -- a host of companies made them -- and then I think Russell and Champion were of the few makers to continue through the 80's, right? And then I don't know what happened.
> 
> But are you sure those crew necks were all wool or were they cotton and wool mix or something else?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know the exact fiber content. They were as dense and tough as boiled wool, which is what I assumed they were. I wouldn't be surprised to find cotton, horse hair, or barbed wire was also involved.
> 
> "The whole thing is performance and prowess and feats of association. Why don't critics talk about those things - what a feat it was to turn that that way, and what a feat it was to remember that, to be reminded of that by this? Scoring. You've got to score." Robert Frost
Click to expand...

Ralph's done it again with the toggel coat. Pricey, but maybe even better than the old Tibbett Monty. -Harris


----------



## n/a

As soon as Ralph discovers that there's a market for undarted sack coats, it may be that Brooks and Press are, after all, doomed. Who can know for sure, but an opportunity is there. It's bizarre how he caters so blatantly to those who aspire to the Ivy League/trad look and then allows darts to be added. Weird.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Since I allow for a bit of "luxury" in terms of suits--(super 120s and cashmere-wool blends)--I'm going to throw caution to the wind by mentioning this sock, which looks not only comfy but also similar to what I'm after in terms of color and style:
> https://www.polo.com/product/index....0781.1766306&page=2&nav=lhn&parentPage=family
> 
> Yet again Ralph provides a replica that's as close to the original as one can get.
> 
> 
> 
> Ralph's ability to improve on the original, to reduce the original to the essential (nostalgic) elements, is a constant marvel and aggravation. My only comfort is how rarely he produces something original on his own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> People (men, since all the people at that time were men) wore them like crewneck sweaters, often inside out with the dense, off-white fleece showing. If I'd been thinking ahead, rare for me in college (or since), I'd have appropriated a few before graduation. Like the dishes with a cartoon of the college mascot fired into them and the monogrammed flatware in the dining hall, the wool sweatshirts are sweet history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I remember these -- a host of companies made them -- and then I think Russell and Champion were of the few makers to continue through the 80's, right? And then I don't know what happened.
> 
> But are you sure those crew necks were all wool or were they cotton and wool mix or something else?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know the exact fiber content. They were as dense and tough as boiled wool, which is what I assumed they were. I wouldn't be surprised to find cotton, horse hair, or barbed wire was also involved.
> 
> "The whole thing is performance and prowess and feats of association. Why don't critics talk about those things - what a feat it was to turn that that way, and what a feat it was to remember that, to be reminded of that by this? Scoring. You've got to score." Robert Frost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ralph's done it again with the toggel coat. Pricey, but maybe even better than the old Tibbett Monty. -Harris
Click to expand...

The bloody thing was about $750 or $700 on sale yesterday at Polo.

Don't need one though.

Was/is Tibbet a brand.


----------



## Doctor Damage

"Tibbett of England" is/was a manufacturer of duffel coats and other outerwear, basically the supplier to Gloverall and others. They used to have their own website but it has disappeared.

DD


----------



## boatshoes

I was just looking at a Press scarf I have and in the logo it only lists the NY, Cambridge and New Haven stores. No DC. I was googling around and stumbled upon a blurb about J. Press having 800 stores in Japan.

When did the DC store come into existence?

Are there really 800 stores in Japan?


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here's a great photo of a college student, circa 1950s.



DD


----------



## NewYorkBuck

> quote:Here's a great photo of a college student, circa 1950s


Cool - but why is he wearing shorts with a tie and jacket?


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by NewYorkBuck_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Here's a great photo of a college student, circa 1950s
> 
> 
> 
> Cool - but why is he wearing shorts with a tie and jacket?
Click to expand...

That's a very trad trouser length. They're either hand-me-downs from his brother or he's had them since freshman year of school.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by boatshoes_
> 
> I was just looking at a Press scarf I have and in the logo it only lists the NY, Cambridge and New Haven stores. No DC. I was googling around and stumbled upon a blurb about J. Press having 800 stores in Japan.
> 
> When did the DC store come into existence?
> 
> Are there really 800 stores in Japan?


I've received shirts of late and scarfs with just the NY, Camb, and NH stores. DC was started (I think) when GHWB took office.


----------



## shuman

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> People (men, since all the people at that time were men) wore them like crewneck sweaters, often inside out with the dense, off-white fleece showing. If I'd been thinking ahead, rare for me in college (or since), I'd have appropriated a few before graduation. Like the dishes with a cartoon of the college mascot fired into them and the monogrammed flatware in the dining hall, the wool sweatshirts are sweet history.
> 
> 
> 
> I remember these -- a host of companies made them -- and then I think Russell and Champion were of the few makers to continue through the 80's, right? And then I don't know what happened.
> 
> But are you sure those crew necks were all wool or were they cotton and wool mix or something else?
> 
> Harris: good job on find the classic Wigwam. Now if they'd just make them fitted-sized, the way they used to.
Click to expand...

Now that we've settled the sock search (Wigwams! Wore them for years!) Does anyone know a source for the heathered grey crewnecks. I remember them too, although people I saw turned sweatshirts inside out in the same fashion. Imitators?


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by ROI_
> People (men, since all the people at that time were men) wore them like crewneck sweaters, often inside out with the dense, off-white fleece showing. If I'd been thinking ahead, rare for me in college (or since), I'd have appropriated a few before graduation. Like the dishes with a cartoon of the college mascot fired into them and the monogrammed flatware in the dining hall, the wool sweatshirts are sweet history.
> 
> 
> 
> I remember these -- a host of companies made them -- and then I think Russell and Champion were of the few makers to continue through the 80's, right? And then I don't know what happened.
> 
> But are you sure those crew necks were all wool or were they cotton and wool mix or something else?
> 
> Harris: good job on find the classic Wigwam. Now if they'd just make them fitted-sized, the way they used to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now that we've settled the sock search (Wigwams! Wore them for years!) Does anyone know a source for the heathered grey crewnecks. I remember them too, although people I saw turned sweatshirts inside out in the same fashion. Imitators?
Click to expand...

No but I'd love to hear about this too. Maybe the guys on the Streetwear forum at SF.com will know. Some of them are Trad without knowing it.


----------



## marc_au

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> Now that we've settled the sock search (Wigwams! Wore them for years!) Does anyone know a source for the heathered grey crewnecks. I remember them too, although people I saw turned sweatshirts inside out in the same fashion. Imitators?


No but I'd love to hear about this too. Maybe the guys on the Streetwear forum at SF.com will know. Some of them are Trad without knowing it.
[/quote]

[:0]

*GR8MAN (The shooman) B8MAN.

*


----------



## Coolidge24

*bump*

this thread should not vanish into the irretrievable ether


----------



## p-beau

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by NewYorkBuck_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Here's a great photo of a college student, circa 1950s
> 
> 
> 
> Cool - but why is he wearing shorts with a tie and jacket?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's a very trad trouser length. They're either hand-me-downs from his brother or he's had them since freshman year of school.
Click to expand...

So my question is this acceptable today? Being a college student myself I often do bring out clothes that at one time were bought for me to grow into and now I have outgrown. As I told my roommate when he asked how I got away with a hand-me-down tweed with sleeves that were too short, I just wear a dress shirt that is a little to small in the same areas.

So once I enter the working world can I still get away with this boyish style or can it only re-emerge when I am over the hill? I am not intending to be a lawyer or live in the city. Maybe a little teaching or publishing.

Any thoughts?

Pete


----------



## rojo

p-beau: The "working world" is not monolithic. Standards vary according to region, field, and even employer. The same eccentricity that would be frowned on at a big-city law firm or brokerage house might seem charming and appropriate with someone teaching at a university. The dress code at one publishing house might be different from another.


----------



## Brooksfan

Regardless of your field of endeavor, and your stylistic leanings pants that short don't look good. They look like you're wearing your shorter brother's pants or like you don't have a clue. Beyond that I don't see how they could be comfortable because when you sit down the bottom of your pants will be closer to your knees than your ankles. Equally bad are pants that drag the ground because they're too long. It's pretty simple-the pants should have a slight break and just meet the top of the shoe. It's not a "rule" as much as common sense and IMHO it really isn't a matter of trad vs non-trad. Plain front or pleated, pants that are too long or too short look bad.


----------



## Patrick06790

> quote:_Originally posted by stephenson_
> 
> Started in September of 2004, and Energizer Bunny like......Still Going Strong!
> 
> Best regrads, Bill


Nothing to do with anything, but I got your note, Bill, and I'm sorry I missed you.

The folks in the newsroom said "Yeah, this guy came in, and he was really _dapper_." This means either you were some kind of publisher's spy from New York, or looking for me.

All the other men at the paper dress in the Modern Natural Disaster Relief or Art-Damaged Intellectual styles...

Except Battling Bob Estabrook, publisher emeritus, who favors Trad Curmudgeon. At the dreadful Xmas party (thrown by management in lieu of pay) he wore a red blazer of a vehemence perhaps unwise here in cow (and bull) country.

The Dept. of Transportation could have hired him to stop traffic.

On a Trad note, I picked up a pretty decent Corbin olive tweed windowpane from Five-Star Apparel, an eBay seller that I've had great luck with (they often have stuff from the old Huntington men's shop in Columbus, Ohio) and I was pleased to see it came from Eljo's Trad Mecca and Whoopee Parlor.


----------



## jmorgan32

> quote:_Originally posted by Brooksfan_
> 
> Regardless of your field of endeavor, and your stylistic leanings pants that short don't look good. They look like you're wearing your shorter brother's pants or like you don't have a clue. Beyond that I don't see how they could be comfortable because when you sit down the bottom of your pants will be closer to your knees than your ankles. Equally bad are pants that drag the ground because they're too long. It's pretty simple-the pants should have a slight break and just meet the top of the shoe. It's not a "rule" as much as common sense and IMHO it really isn't a matter of trad vs non-trad. Plain front or pleated, pants that are too long or too short look bad.


I must need a good night's sleep, because this probably isn't as funny as I think it is right now. I literally laughed until tears poured from my eyes. Imagine him sitting, and then crossing his legs. The cuff would, as stated above, hit him about 3" below his knee! Could you imagine that with a little pair of ankle length "fluffies" on? Dear God, I'm taking a nap. Punchy as all hell.


----------



## winn

This thread is now continuing into the new year.

I am going back to the original comment by Harris about inquiring who tends toward the American look - sack suits, tassel loafers, shetland crewnecks, Harris tweeds, madras, etc. - and who has stuck with this look (14 September 2004).

That is I. Thatâ€™s how I have dressed for over 25 years. And, Lord willing, that is how I will continue to dress. Dressing this way is timeless. You can wear an item until it is completely worn out, not because it is dated. It works. It works for me.

I like this linguistic analogy - American/Trad is my vocabulary and language of nonverbal communication about who I am. I can put different â€œsentencesâ€ together within the vocabulary and still communicate in the same language.

My everyday â€œspeechâ€ consists of Brooks oxford cloth button down shirts, shetland crewneck sweaters, khakis or wool/ wool flannel trousers in plain front â€" (I have never worn pleats in my life.) - nondescript socks in blue or black, and Bass Weejuns or Alden tassel loafers. My work is in a somewhat informal environment, thus I rarely wear a suit during the week. So I will add to this a tweed sportcoat or blue blazer, with a Brooks regimental tie, or a JPress emblematic tie, and a lambswool v-neck sweater. My watch is a Timex with basic leather band.(A â€œbeaterâ€, right, stephenson?). On weekends, more of the same, but I donâ€™t mind layering the elements over a Lacoste shirt, and wearing other colors of Brooks oxford cloth button down shirts (pink, ecru, yellow, and the burgundy and blue candy stripes) beyond the white and blue that I would normally wear to work, and wearing louder socks with my Weejuns or Alden tassel loafers.

Current â€œslangâ€ within my speech:
- I donâ€™t have a problem with wearing black. I know further discussion on this has happened elsewhere.
- I still like wearing solid color T shirts with a good pair of Leviâ€™s 505's.
- I donâ€™t know if it fits the definition of American/Trad or not. One of my favorite ties is a William Morris floral from Liberty of London, that I picked up in London years ago. Morrisâ€™ designs go back a century.

How did I get there? I went to college in central Virginia, but I didnâ€™t start dressing this way until I moved from college to where I live in central New Jersey. (During college, the frat culture was big into this form of dress...and that was not my crowd during college.) Yet, upon leaving college, I embraced it wholeheartedly. Go figure.

Now, in my town, four trad shops have closed up since I have lived here, only to be replaced by the likes of Ralph and JCrew. [An aside, however: One time, in the office building in the town where I work, a fashion forward contemporary menâ€™s store opened. I said prophetically that the designer pet goods store on the side street would last longer... and I was right.] So, it has been more trips up the Northeast corridor to 346 and JPress to get the elements of â€œspeechâ€. I learned to â€œspeakâ€ in the Brooksgate Department on the fifth floor of 346. Stephensonâ€™s posts on this forum have kept me informed of another trad shop nearby in my town.

How did I get here to AAAC? It was a google link from â€œBass Weejunsâ€ that brought me here. This past year, I was reflecting how I seemed to be one of the very few people I know that still wears Bass Weejuns with regularity. I am talking the basic burgundy model N734, not burgundy brush off, and I was finding it harder and harder to get replacement pairs, and even to find Kiwi oxblood shoe polish. (My shoe repair shop now has the polish, Stapletonâ€™s in Lower Manhattan has been my source for my Bass Weejuns.) I was also scratching my head wondering why I canâ€™t find decent shetland wool crewneck sweaters anymore. I didnâ€™t want to wear merino, and I am not really into cashmere sweaters. I have now read plenty on this forum to settle that question.

I havenâ€™t got into the world of custom made suits. Maybe I am getting there, for Brooks, my prime haberdashery all these years, is telling me in every single catalogue that seem to arrive every 2-3 weeks, that the â€œbetterâ€ suits all have pleated pants!

Harris - I very much enjoyed your post on 4 March 2005 in which you said: â€œIâ€™ve often thought that behind my taste in clothing, there was something more significant at work â€" an underlying desire to see certain traditions maintained and fostered...an abiding appreciation for manners and etiquette. Certainly clothing is an extension of public presentation, which is really all about manners and etiquette.â€ Wow! That thought really resonates with me. And I can continue my analogy here. My speech, verbal and nonverbal, is to be that of a gentleman. I am in no way trying to boast, but I am always very touched when someone sincerely refers to me as a gentleman. I would like to think that in dressing American/Trad it helps in forming my character as a gentleman.

Some other lifestyle elements of my â€œtradlinessâ€ (uh, oh...am I slurring my speech?)
- I have had the same barber for over 22 years, and I know he will be retiring soon. Will I need counseling?
- My â€˜91 Honda Civic is just about to cross the 300,000 mile threshold in the next month.
- Oh yeah - no one has remarked on this item yet - my athletic shoe of choice is Adidas Country. An example: . (Again, until the shopping age of the www, another item that for me has been hard to find. My recent source has been Stapleton in NYC and I buy multiple pairs at a time, just like Weejuns.)
- Traditional Soaps: the selection at Vermont Country Store canâ€™t be beat. https://www.vermontcountrystore.com...ype=CATEGORY&iMainCat=4&iSubCat=165&viewall=1. I like Wrightâ€™s, Lightfootâ€™s, Imperial Leather, and the VCS variety pack.
- I still have and use a rotary telephone, for what it is worth.
- I enjoy going to my local brewpub for a handpulled pint.

So, I have been reading throughout this forum during the last few weeks. I have enjoyed what I have read, and I appreciate the passion therein... and all ready it has influenced me. A first - I actually wore a pocket square to my Episcopal church on Christmas Day.

This is my first post, and preparing it has been cathartic. Itâ€™s not like I have others around me that I can share about this stuff. Thank you for indulging me.

Andy - I feel like I have just been to AAAC Toastmasters... or is it AAAC TradMasters?
I will sit down now.

Cheers for the new year,

Winn


----------



## longwing

Winn: Great post. Welcome to the forum.


----------



## xcubbies

Winn, I see you've made the leap to computers. Can't find a new ribbon for the Underwood? Glad to see you are an Episopal. Wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## n/a

winn, welcome.

Let me guess: Trinity Episcopal? I know Leslie Smith pretty well. Hell of a guy...and a trad to boot. Great church.

I too attended VA schools. I now find myself in Northern "Jersey." I get down to Princeton quite a lot--for squash games at the Dillon Gym, lunch at favorite haunts, and meetings with colleagues.

Tell us more about how/when/where you opted for trad. I had no choice in the matter, and thus remain interested in people who did.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Coolidge24

Winn,

Welcome to the board and Happy New Year. It is always a pleasure to have another trad devotee among us!



> quote:_Originally posted by winn_
> 
> - I still have and use a rotary telephone, for what it is worth.


I do too, a classic red Bell System sits in my apartment's bedroom. My father jokingly referred to it as "The Red Phone" of Cold War fame. But it's the only one that works when the power goes out...mechanical bell! Dial in good health.


----------



## LPinFla

Winn, welcome aboard! The more trad , the merrier.


----------



## Horace

Winn, welcome.

On another note, I'm very disturbed by Clinton's presence here:

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/aboutus/customers-pres.tem

The man has no style and Brooks has no business making a jacket like this.

Thank you.

Horace


----------



## winn

Thank you all for the warm and gracious welcome. I was apprehensive in the preparation of my first and introductory post to this forum that I would be saying something to stoke the flames. â€œOh my, in his first post he mentioned . . . wearing black . . . T shirts . . . Leviâ€™s 505's . . . he surely canâ€™t be one of us.â€ This leads me to now ask: What are the boundaries? How does acceptable individual expression work in American/Trad, beyond say, the choice of belt and watchband? Again, I appreciate the passions and convictions of those who have posted here.

Stephenson: I will let you know when Lou does retire. Thank you for being a resource to me on finding another barber.

xcubbies: In a silly way, your comments about â€œmake the leap to computersâ€ and â€œcanâ€™t find a ribbon to the Underwoodâ€ are not too far off the mark. This summer, my 486/33 with Windows 3.1 (vintage 1990) fried in the July heat of central NJ. So, now I have an up-to-snuff system that allows me to be here and the rest of the world wide web, instead of me asking â€œworld wide what?â€ It came in August, but I didnâ€™t get it together until October.

Coolidge24: Thanks for affirming that I am not the only dinosaur on planet earth with a rotary dial telephone. Now, do we debate about what is appropriate traditional color of oneâ€™s rotary dial telephone? I think the Bell System would call mine either buff or ivory.

Harris: What can I say? Great detective work, Sherlock . . . as if I didnâ€™t leave you enough clues!
Trinity Episcopal it is. I would very much enjoy meeting you and making your acquaintance. Triumph? I can then tell you the story how at my behest fish-and-chips is on the menu . . . and still is to this day. Email me.

Now to stay on the topic, before I am booted to the ether . . . 

Harris made the inquiry to me on the how/when/where of choosing to go American/Trad in relation to oneâ€™s clothing choices. It came to me after leaving college in Charlottesville, and realizing I was going into the â€œreal world.â€ I didnâ€™t have any good sartorial skills or influences at age 22, so I looked elsewhere for guidance. Observation - a big one. Looking carefully at the clothing choices of other men, and considering what works and what doesnâ€™t. Molloyâ€™s book, first edition of Dress for Success. OK, what else was out there on the subject in 1977? (Please Note: In mentioning the Molloy book here, I am not encouraging responses on his content or approach as you think of the value of this book in the present time. I just mentioned that it provided me some initial guidance) One regret I have about college was that I didnâ€™t dress up more. I enjoy the posts and inquiries of the younger forum members who want to get it right! And continuing observation to this day... and now this forum... have affirmed my choices. Again, as I said in my first post, the timelessness of American/Trad as style was a big attraction to me, and still is. (Today, I pulled out a 1993 Ben Silver catalogue that I found I still had. I realized I could still shop from it, in the sense of making selections that fit my American/Trad style.)

I would hope other forum members would respond to this inquiry of how/when/where of going American/Trad in style... which ultimately leads to answering the question â€œWhy?â€

Another question - and it is ok for someone to tell me to take it to its own thread or even over to Interchange - Is there a relationship between oneâ€™s American/Trad interests in clothing and other traditional interests? On my way back from the Ship Inn pub in Milford, NJ, today, I was talking to a buddy about my abiding interest in American history and understanding my roots as an American citizen, and my joy of going to historical sites and museums to learn things about people and events that you just donâ€™t learn in history books. (Simple examples: I didnâ€™t know Frederick Douglass attended the first womenâ€™s right convention in 1848 in Seneca Falls, NY, or that William Seward for a while housed underground railroad leader Harriett Tubman in Auburn, NY.)

Continuing cheers for the new year...and thank you again for the warm welcome,

Winn


----------



## Mr. Knightly

Winn - Trad definately goes beyond clothes for most of us. In fact, some of the most amusing posts I've ever read are about non-sartorial trad artifacts and activities. An example of my own trad bent is some of the forms of recreation in which I have tried in vain to get my peers to engage. Caroling was a natural suggestion over Christmas but perhaps they were right in noting that it we would be spreading mirth at our own expense rather than Christmas joy. I've also become taken with the idea of amateur theatricals amongst friends, such as were popular before television and radio.

A somewhat mundane list of other trad things which I am not alone in appreciating: fountain pens, full length umbrellas, classic cars, chess, whiskey/scotch, classical music, classic literature, lost lore of etiquette, leather-bound books, the Sunday Times, a cigar now and then, letter writing, poetry, a wind-up alarm clock (alas, it broke and I have been forced to replace it with a Christmas gift--an atomic clock--how ironic).


----------



## longwing

> quote:_Originally posted by winn_
> 
> One regret I have about college was that I didnâ€™t dress up more.


What happened in the '70s stays in the '70s. I believe I am just a few years younger than you. I often have to remind myself those were different times. Sometimes I just have to give myself a break for things I did or did not do.


----------



## Lance

Mr. Knightly,

Very nice list. Do you play chess online? worldchessnetwork.com?

Thanks,
Lance


----------



## Mr. Knightly

Thanks, Lance. I've only played online a few times. It felt rather strange to me so I haven't really gotten into it. I usually play with my brothers over holidays or sometimes a couple of my buddies and I get together to drink whisky and play round robin all night.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> I suppose there is no point in my bumping this thread since someone already did that. Instead, I will ask for some help - has anyone experience with the J Press gloves? Are they sized or just SML? In particular, I am looking for a nice pair of tan gloves, not too sleek, appropriate with a heavy wool overcoat.


Dopey,

I posted a message similar but never received a response. YOu might just want to call Press. They ought to be good for what they're charging, no? More and more places aren't doing numbered sizes. Andover Shop does, as far as I know. At least my last pair was numbered.


----------



## p-beau

On the topic of rotary phones, my mother's favorite story about one of my highschool friends is the day that he attempted to call home using our old Bell (lovely shade of mustard). None of us could stop laughing as he attempted multiple times to dial by simply pushing his fingers through the holes as if they were a new style of push-button.

In high school I started wearing trad clothes out of practicality. My Dutch instincts told me that it made more sense to wear things that would last and always be appropriate. Only in college have I discovered the "fun" side of it all.

Also thanks for the input on the pants length. When purchasing pants I do go with the common sense rule of a slight break and not much more. But I am always curious about what you can get away with. I love wearing my father's old shirts and sweaters and trading jabs with friends about holes in the elbows and tattered cuffs.

Pete


----------



## n/a

"Is there a relationship between oneâ€™s American/Trad interests in clothing and other traditional interests?"--winn

Yes. I believe there is. 

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## xcubbies

"A somewhat mundane list of other trad things which I am not alone in appreciating: fountain pens, full length umbrellas, classic cars, chess, whiskey/scotch, classical music, classic literature, lost lore of etiquette, leather-bound books, the Sunday Times, a cigar now and then, letter writing, poetry, a wind-up alarm clock " by Mr. Knightly

I'd be careful, it sounds a lot like Emily Dickinson's wish list.


----------



## Literide

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> Winn, welcome.
> 
> On another note, I'm very disturbed by Clinton's presence here:
> 
> https://www.brooksbrothers.com/aboutus/customers-pres.tem
> 
> The man has no style and Brooks has no business making a jacket like this.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Horace


Indeed, that jacket may be fine for biz cazz on 125th street but no business in the pantheon. I seem to recall Clinton wearing ventless, square shouldered Donna Karan suits he got on the cuff (so to speak)

Come to think of it, 1 republican and 3 dems, how about some balance?


----------



## winn

â€œRespect for the heritage, continuing the traditionâ€

Incredibly obvious thought coming, but I will say it anyway:
I realized today that each element that I wear in American/Trad has its own background and history that go back years and generations - the tweed jacket, the blue blazer, the oxford cloth button down shirt, the khaki trousers, the wide wale corduroy trousers, the Bass weejuns, the Alden tassel loafers, and, thus, the composite appearance when these elements are put together.
I can think that in wearing American/Trad that I am continuing the tradition.

I have also thinking of the query I put forth on 1 January 2006 regarding the relationship between American/Trad clothing and other traditional interests. Mr. Knightly, your list posted on 2 January 2006, was great. Please amplify the idea of â€œamateur theatricalsâ€. In a previous Christmas season, I enjoyed getting together with friends to read aloud The Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens, and each person taking a role in the dialogue. Great fun. Correlations for me:
- membership/participation in my local historical society
- patronizing farmers markets and the local orchard farm store (cider doughnuts...mmmmm)
- classical music ( Would you believe that on the radio dial in NYC and Phila you canâ€™t find a noncommercial classical music outlet? But I have good one right out of my community college in Mercer County, New Jersey. I think they stream on the internet, too.)
- enjoyment of live traditional music in song and instrumental in the British, Irish, Quebec, and Atlantic Maritimes traditions in smaller venues, such as church halls and pubs.
- traditional board games and cards
- the heritage of Americaâ€™s historic breweries - memories and mementoes https://americanbreweriana.org
- letter writing ( which reminds me of a few thank you notes I need to send...)
- etiquette
- Moxie https://www.angelfire.com/tn/traderz/moxie.html
- and of course, the hand pulled pint from my local pub!

Now, to bring John Oâ€™Hara into the discussion. He was born in Pottsville, Pennsylvania, home of Americaâ€™s oldest brewery since 1829, Yuengling, and he is buried in my town, Princeton in the Princeton Cemetery. ( Harris - the latter was news to me, but then I am sure you knew that.)

Respecting the heritage, continuing the tradition,
Winn


----------



## Mr. Knightly

Well, a specific example of such theatricals would be those practiced by the Austen family. We know that putting on performances, usually satirical, was a usual pastime of the family and the juvenallia has examples of skits that would have been read. Christmas in particular was a larger production with neighbors participating and a stage put up in the barn. Reading A Christmas Carol sounds like a great idea that might not seem quite so intimidating to those I am trying to influence. I guess I'll have to wait another 12 months though.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


----------



## mendozar

> quote:
> _Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> 
> 
> quote:
> _Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> Winn, welcome.
> 
> On another note, I'm very disturbed by Clinton's presence here:
> 
> https://www.brooksbrothers.com/aboutus/customers-pres.tem
> 
> The man has no style and Brooks has no business making a jacket like this.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Horace
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, that jacket may be fine for biz cazz on 125th street but no business in the pantheon. I seem to recall Clinton wearing ventless, square shouldered Donna Karan suits he got on the cuff (so to speak)
> 
> Come to think of it, 1 republican and 3 dems, how about some balance?
Click to expand...

They forgot to mention the little fact that when Lincoln was assassinated, he was wearing Brooks Brothers.[xx(]

Cheers,

Rufino


----------



## SmartDresser

> quote:_Originally posted by manton_
> 
> rojo: Good line.
> 
> Then there's the other side of the bay. San Francisco 1964: Republican convention nomintates Barry Goldwater. San Francisco 1967: Golden Gate Park and the Haight host the Summer of Love. What the hell happened in a mere three years?


Many years ago, the memory is clouded, Union Square was populated with women wearing white gloves and men sporting hats. Shoppers, who remember, still comment about it, shaking their heads about how jeans and t-shirts have conquered.


----------



## Horace

apologies to anyone who has his eye set on this one:



but it might be just the ticket for Harris, provided his takes a 44R and wants blue for a duffle.


----------



## n/a

Well, not so much. I like the rope-and-wood toggles, not the leather-and-horn. Although (I must admit) I like the Barbour duffle because it combines leather with the rope-and-wood combo. A nice and rather unique look. Cheers, Harris


----------



## Chris H

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I like the rope-and-wood toggles, not the leather-and-horn. Although (I must admit) I like the Barbour duffle because it combines leather with the rope-and-wood combo. A nice and rather unique look. Cheers, Harris


It is possible to buy the rope and wood toggles from Gloverall, most tailors should be able to attach them. It would improve the look of most duffle coats, even a cheaper one.

https://www.gloverall.com/acatalog/Toggles.html

Chris


----------



## Doctor Damage

> quote:_Originally posted by Chris H_
> 
> It is possible to buy the rope and wood toggles from Gloverall, most tailors should be able to attach them. It would improve the look of most duffle coats, even a cheaper one.


Before Christmas I received two packs of those toggles from Gloverall. Each package has four wood toggles, four long jute ropes, and four short jute ropes. I haven't decided if I should (1) attach them to my basic duffle to improve its appearance, or (2) attach them to a custom made duffle to my specs. We'll see...

DD


----------



## n/a

DD, how did you order them? Did you use a credit card? Did they arrive within just a few weeks? Thanks. Cheers, Harris


----------



## Doctor Damage

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> DD, how did you order them? Did you use a credit card? Did they arrive within just a few weeks? Thanks. Cheers, Harris


I just used my credit card. For Canada, importing stuff below a certain cost is duty free (or at least they don't bother collecting). They arrived in about a week, a lot faster than I expected. They are good quality and look exactly as pictured on the Gloverall website (but with a total of 8 ropes).

The toggles are 2 3/8" long. The ropes are slightly uneven in length, but the long ones are 14" to 15", and the short ones are 12". They are a very tough braided rope.

I'm quite happy and if money is no object then pick up 3 or 4 packs and keep them for the future.

DD


----------



## Horace

It's good to see that they have the 100% wool duffle on the site. Maybe they'll do a wood toggled make up for you.


----------



## n/a

With my luck with make-ups these days, fat chance. I may ask, though.
Cheers, Harris


----------



## ssuchin

Above, members have posted pictures of well-dressed university students from the 1950s. Did most male students dress in that manner? When did this start to change and was this change gradual.


----------



## tom22

1964, the year the Beatles invaded. What you lost in dress, you made up in music.


----------



## Smudger

Gents one and all,

The Great Change started in the early and mid-60's with the Berkeley Free Speech Movement started, in part by Mario Savio. Then in 1965 at some Ivy League schools many students began to protest the war in Viet Nam. As this sentiment spread there also began a "counter culture" movement which decried the grey flanneled tradition of what was considered elitism. With free love and drugs raising an individual's consciousness anything was possible in apparel except that which was deemed an indication of the establishment. From there on out it has been a relentless battle with the counter-culture winning. There are a few bastions of conservative dress at the university level but even in those schools tradition is gradually losing out. When Hampden-Sydney goes coed the war will be over for us. The only time you will ever find me in Birkenstocks is when you kill my wife and take my cold and dead body and place them on me. 

"sic transit gloriae mundi"
Bill

Mollydog


----------



## n/a

I'm wonder if politics has anything to do with it. I know way too many left-wingers who shop at Press and Eljo's and appear to have Emily Post's advice memorized to make such a connection. Likewise, I know way too many conservatives who look like models for Men's Wearhouse and have the manners of a monkey. John Lindsey, George Plimpton, Kingman Brewster, and Dean Acheson were politically liberal, yet traditional in public presentation (including manners and dress). Tom DeLay, Newt Gingrich, and Milton Friedman are right wingers, and, well...no comment. Some of the most traditional, conservative people (I know) hold very progressive political views. In some cases--and I'm here thinking of a J. Press-wearing Episcopal priest in NYC--radical.
-Harris


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I'm wonder if politics has anything to do with it. I know way too many left-wingers who shop at Press and Eljo's and appear to have Emily Post's advice memorized to make such a connection. Likewise, I know way too many conservatives who look like models for Men's Wearhouse and have the manners of a monkey. John Lindsey, George Plimpton, Kingman Brewster, and Dean Acheson were politically liberal, yet traditional in public presentation (including manners and dress). Tom DeLay, Newt Gingrich, and Milton Friedman are right wingers, and, well...no comment. Some of the most traditional, conservative people (I know) hold very progressive political views. In some cases--and I'm here thinking of a J. Press-wearing Episcopal priest in NYC--radical.
> -Harris


Based on my experience in the College Republicans (2001 to last spring when I graduated) I agree with you. While it was true that the Dems on my college campus conformed to the "counter culture" appearance stereotype, the best dressed people, besides myself, were often the most apolitical....indeed, I would say the best dressed as a whole were members of the sailing team. Most of the Republicans were very shoddy looking too. My attempts to get us to all dress up more for unity fell on deaf ears.

Girls tended to be far better dressed (and maintain trad styles) as a whole then most of the men on campus. Those from prep school backgrounds where dress codes still had existed were often the best dressed but there was no consistently well dressed group or subgroup...there were plenty of appallingly dressed prep schoolers too.

As a rule the most hippy dressers were members of the leftist club (not Dems, further left) and the theatre, art, and music departments.


----------



## msh14

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I'm wonder if politics has anything to do with it. I know way too many left-wingers who shop at Press and Eljo's and appear to have Emily Post's advice memorized to make such a connection. Likewise, I know way too many conservatives who look like models for Men's Wearhouse and have the manners of a monkey. John Lindsey, George Plimpton, Kingman Brewster, and Dean Acheson were politically liberal, yet traditional in public presentation (including manners and dress). Tom DeLay, Newt Gingrich, and Milton Friedman are right wingers, and, well...no comment. Some of the most traditional, conservative people (I know) hold very progressive political views. In some cases--and I'm here thinking of a J. Press-wearing Episcopal priest in NYC--radical.
> -Harris
> 
> 
> 
> Based on my experience in the College Republicans I agree with you. While it was true that the Dems on my college campus conformed to the "counter culture" appearance stereotype, the best dressed people, besides myself, were often the most apolitical....indeed, I would say the best dressed as a whole were members of the sailing team. Most of the Republicans were very shoddy looking too. My attempts to get us to all dress up more for unity fell on deaf ears.
Click to expand...

While I will agree that the College Republicans on my campus aren't well dressed a surprising and overwhelming majority of those students who are well dressed are distinctly conservative in their politics.


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by msh14_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I'm wonder if politics has anything to do with it. I know way too many left-wingers who shop at Press and Eljo's and appear to have Emily Post's advice memorized to make such a connection. Likewise, I know way too many conservatives who look like models for Men's Wearhouse and have the manners of a monkey. John Lindsey, George Plimpton, Kingman Brewster, and Dean Acheson were politically liberal, yet traditional in public presentation (including manners and dress). Tom DeLay, Newt Gingrich, and Milton Friedman are right wingers, and, well...no comment. Some of the most traditional, conservative people (I know) hold very progressive political views. In some cases--and I'm here thinking of a J. Press-wearing Episcopal priest in NYC--radical.
> -Harris
> 
> 
> 
> Based on my experience in the College Republicans I agree with you. While it was true that the Dems on my college campus conformed to the "counter culture" appearance stereotype, the best dressed people, besides myself, were often the most apolitical....indeed, I would say the best dressed as a whole were members of the sailing team. Most of the Republicans were very shoddy looking too. My attempts to get us to all dress up more for unity fell on deaf ears.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I will agree that the College Republicans on my campus aren't well dressed a surprising and overwhelming majority of those students who are well dressed are distinctly conservative in their politics.
Click to expand...

I agree..I am. But I noticed that most on my campus who were well dressed might have some conservative views but were rarely openly conservative. I suppose that's a bit Yankee of them though and I can understand. The "hard core" conservatives, those who worship the Reagan movement, tended to dress like crap. It was more brandy swilling reactionary types like me or moderate New England types a la Chris Shays supporters who'd be well turned out on a given day. And neither of those types are really comfortable in the College Republicans of today (even if they are club founders, like myself)


----------



## tom22

I suspect I am one of those left wingers that 'Harris' knows who shopped at JPress and Brooks since we were teenagers. My gosh, I bought a Gloverall duffel coat in 1985 at Westaways in London. I think it has genuine horn toggles. When I took it to a tailor some years ago to have a patch pocket sewn up she said to me: "This thing is a horse blanket." I wore it today.
I voted for Jack Kerry and would do so again tomorrow. I proudly describe myself as a Dean Acheson Democrat. But here in New Haven, CT (subsriber to the symphony, member of a a few of the clubs, decended from generations of the creed) that is not a strange tag!


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> I suspect I am one of those left wingers that 'Harris' knows who shopped at JPress and Brooks since we were teenagers. My gosh, I bought a Gloverall duffel coat in 1985 at Westaways in London. I think it has genuine horn toggles. When I took it to a tailor some years ago to have a patch pocket sewn up she said to me: "This thing is a horse blanket." I wore it today.
> I voted for Jack Kerry and would do so again tomorrow. I proudly describe myself as a Dean Acheson Democrat. But here in New Haven, CT (subsriber to the symphony, member of a a few of the clubs, decended from generations of the creed) that is not a strange tag!


Indeed, Tom. Indeed.


----------



## ssuchin

I am surprised to hear any characterization of dress in universities. I enjoyed the posted pictures from the 50s because undergrad life does not resemble that at all. There is a strong hip-hop influence and even those considered preppy seek a disheveled look. Dressing up is usually for 'semi-formals' where the most dressed up look is a navy blazer and khakis. And I certainly could not make any political associations although conservatives were rarely of the hip-hop type. 

This is why, in trying to understand clothes now, I find the idea that universities had influence to be fascinating. I am very curious to hear what percentage of men dressed with jackets. By 1970 was this look absent?


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by Smudger_
> 
> Gents one and all,
> 
> The Great Change started in the early and mid-60's with the Berkeley Free Speech Movement started, in part by Mario Savio. Then in 1965 at some Ivy League schools many students began to protest the war in Viet Nam. As this sentiment spread there also began a "counter culture" movement which decried the grey flanneled tradition of what was considered elitism. With free love and drugs raising an individual's consciousness anything was possible in apparel except that which was deemed an indication of the establishment. From there on out it has been a relentless battle with the counter-culture winning. There are a few bastions of conservative dress at the university level but even in those schools tradition is gradually losing out. When Hampden-Sydney goes coed the war will be over for us. The only time you will ever find me in Birkenstocks is when you kill my wife and take my cold and dead body and place them on me.
> 
> "sic transit gloriae mundi"
> Bill
> 
> Mollydog


Smudger, I know the HSC campus pretty well. It sounds like you may as well, so we may find agreement in this claim: the HSC gents aren't politically "conservative" so much as they are libertarian. Free market types, to be sure, but I can't imagine them getting too upset over Roe v. Wade remaining legal or expanded rights for gays and lesbians. They're what I call "P.J. O' Rourke conservatives." You can't party, drink, smoke, curse, and chase women in the manner that the HSC good 'ol boys (I know) do and simultaneously be affiliated with "conservatives" like of Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed, or the rest of the Christian Righters who have taken over a portion of the G.O.P.'s platform. -Harris


----------



## tom22

Cheers. And happy New Year. Oddly, i have just returned from a dinner party where two Princeton grads circa maybe the early 40s or late 30s (both in Harris tweed, only one with a bowtie and button down) had a love fest. And my beloved sponser was the widow of a Princeton Grad of the class of 1928. And that is how I ended up a few summers ago in Greenborough, VT. Enjoy!


----------



## tom22

PS: I lived through some of the late 60s and remember when there were still a lot of tailored clothing shops in New Haven, CT. (Actually most survived into the late 70s or early 80s). I remember it all, as if it were yesterday. Smudger has no more clue than, well, Bill O'Reilly. I know what happened. Smudger just has a theory. I know the truth.


----------



## n/a

Bill O' Reilly, not trad. 
Mark Shields, uber trad.
The point is furthered.
Cheers,
Harris


----------



## tom22

PS: there are places for rent by the week or the month. There is some rental office up there. I am sure with a Princeton connection you would be welcomed with open arms. There is an assocation you can join where the chief justice used to lecture. Though this is a modest world...... well you know. You meet interesting people who know all about the world of finance and you meet interesting people who know nothing about finance. i loved that General store where you could but a shot gun or choose from a foot high stack of the WSJ. a tiny world indeed.


----------



## Literide

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> I suspect I am one of those left wingers that 'Harris' knows who shopped at JPress and Brooks since we were teenagers. My gosh, I bought a Gloverall duffel coat in 1985 at Westaways in London. I think it has genuine horn toggles. When I took it to a tailor some years ago to have a patch pocket sewn up she said to me: "This thing is a horse blanket." I wore it today.
> I voted for Jack Kerry and would do so again tomorrow. I proudly describe myself as a Dean Acheson Democrat. But here in New Haven, CT (subsriber to the symphony, member of a a few of the clubs, decended from generations of the creed) that is not a strange tag!


"Jack" Kerry? thats a first. Are you a family friend, or just trying to make him Kennedyesgue? And would that be the real Kennedy's or the life magazine Kennedy's?

"Jack" and "Bobby", trad for sure, each in their own way. Ted? I just dont know...


----------



## tom22

Literide: You know, I have dealt with you before. you aren't worth the effort.


----------



## tom22

PS: and if I did not make myself clear: I think you are a clown.


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> PS: there are places for rent by the week or the month. There is some rental office up there. I am sure with a Princeton connection you would be welcomed with open arms. There is an assocation you can join where the chief justice used to lecture. Though this is a modest world...... well you know. You meet interesting people who know all about the world of finance and you meet interesting people who know nothing about finance. i loved that General store where you could but a shot gun or choose from a foot high stack of the WSJ. a tiny world indeed.


Tom, I would love to get to know that part of the world better. Sort of precious relic to be prized. (Kind of like Stonington, eh?)

And yes, it's always nice to run into Princetonians. (My wife seems to take more pleasure in it than I do; not sure why). One of our former neighbors spent every summer in Greensboro, which he loved.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## wyvern73

On politics and dress, I lean trad and am somewhere between conservative and libertarian, but have noticed that people who share my sartorial taste do tend to be lefties.

I think the reason is just a common origin- the trad style came from the Northeast, which has also has always be the most politically progressive region. Although conservatism has some more elitist factions, the mainstream conservative movement has a populist tinge, and I suspect that many reject the trad look because of its perceived elitist connotations and association with the old, progressive establishment.

Ed


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by wyvern73_
> 
> On politics and dress, I lean trad and am somewhere between conservative and libertarian, but have noticed that people who share my sartorial taste do tend to be lefties.
> 
> I think the reason is just a common origin- the trad style came from the Northeast, which has also has always be the most politically progressive region. Although conservatism has some more elitist factions, the mainstream conservative movement has a populist tinge, and I suspect that many reject the trad look because of its perceived elitist connotations and association with the old, progressive establishment.
> 
> Ed


TRUE! Very astute observation. Right on the mark.


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by wyvern73_
> 
> On politics and dress, I lean trad and am somewhere between conservative and libertarian, but have noticed that people who share my sartorial taste do tend to be lefties.
> 
> I think the reason is just a common origin- the trad style came from the Northeast, which has also has always be the most politically progressive region. Although conservatism has some more elitist factions, the mainstream conservative movement has a populist tinge, and I suspect that many reject the trad look because of its perceived elitist connotations and association with the old, progressive establishment.
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> TRUE! Very astute observation. Right on the mark.
Click to expand...

This is also backed by the fact that any Republicans who were or might have been perceived as Northeastern "elitists" were trad: Henry Cabot Lodge Jr., George H.W. Bush, John Chafee....Coolidge probably would've been too had he lived 30 years later.

Compare them to the "true belivers/populists": Reagan, George W., Tom DeLay


----------



## winn

â€œThe Merchant/Customer Relationship in American Tradâ€

Me: â€œNice jacket. Who did you get it from?â€
Buddy: â€œI got it at Xâ€
Me: â€œNo, I said, who did you get it from?â€
Buddy: â€œWhat are you talking about? Youâ€™re nuts.â€
Me: â€œNever mind . . . â€

I had another American Trad epiphany today as I was enjoying the sampler of ales at the Harvest Moon Brewery and CafÃ© in New Brunswick, New Jersey. This was after an intense day of teaching Lifeguarding at Rutgers. ( No, not my day job . . . but, maybe I should let you think that. That would be a hoot.) The pub owner comes up and starts talking to me, and we spent a good half hour or so talking about beer, brewing, and stuff like that. I then realized how I often get into conversations like this, and develop subsequent good merchant/customer relationships like that (with me it is the Ship Inn, Triumph, and Conteâ€™s in NJ), and that these have grown out of my passion for good ale and the conviviality that come from a pub.

Then, I realized it is like that for those passionate about American Trad. The conversation above is fictional, but it makes the point that most guys donâ€™t know from whom they buy their wardrobe. Count me in, too. I have been a Brooks customer for more than 28 years now, but it is not like I have developed any merchant/customer relationship with their staff. As I have been wading through the voluminous posts on this forum, the parallel came to me. You share about David at JPress, Barbara at The Andover Shop, Izzy at LS clothing, Mr. Winston at Chipp, Nick Hilton, Billy Roberts at Eljoâ€™s, Ed Zapatka at The Shoemart - just to name a few - and how sincerely wonderful they are, and how they have been a help to you over many, many years. And I believe this is true.

Cheers,
Winn


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by stephenson_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the merchant customer relationship, I would also add Dave Mercer.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely. Though sometimes delivery is a little slow when there are many orders, it's always worth it in the end...and I appreciate the hand signed notes too.
> 
> My dad always says Mercer shirts are what Brooks shirts "were".
Click to expand...


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by winn_
> 
> â€œThe Merchant/Customer Relationship in American Tradâ€
> 
> Me: â€œNice jacket. Who did you get it from?â€
> Buddy: â€œI got it at Xâ€
> Me: â€œNo, I said, who did you get it from?â€
> Buddy: â€œWhat are you talking about? Youâ€™re nuts.â€
> Me: â€œNever mind . . . â€
> 
> I had another American Trad epiphany today as I was enjoying the sampler of ales at the Harvest Moon Brewery and CafÃ© in New Brunswick, New Jersey. This was after an intense day of teaching Lifeguarding at Rutgers. ( No, not my day job . . . but, maybe I should let you think that. That would be a hoot.) The pub owner comes up and starts talking to me, and we spent a good half hour or so talking about beer, brewing, and stuff like that. I then realized how I often get into conversations like this, and develop subsequent good merchant/customer relationships like that (with me it is the Ship Inn, Triumph, and Conteâ€™s in NJ), and that these have grown out of my passion for good ale and the conviviality that come from a pub.
> 
> Then, I realized it is like that for those passionate about American Trad. The conversation above is fictional, but it makes the point that most guys donâ€™t know from whom they buy their wardrobe. Count me in, too. I have been a Brooks customer for more than 28 years now, but it is not like I have developed any merchant/customer relationship with their staff. As I have been wading through the voluminous posts on this forum, the parallel came to me. You share about David at JPress, Barbara at The Andover Shop, Izzy at LS clothing, Mr. Winston at Chipp, Nick Hilton, Billy Roberts at Eljoâ€™s, Ed Zapatka at The Shoemart - just to name a few - and how sincerely wonderful they are, and how they have been a help to you over many, many years. And I believe this is true.
> 
> Cheers,
> Winn


The Eljo's crew--Myles, Trent, Billy, Don, William--are great. Ditto for Ed, Mr. Winston, and David. And ditto for a great many others I've come to know. Gentlemen who care about their vocation, all of them. Cheers, Harris


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by stephenson_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by winn_
> 
> â€œThe Merchant/Customer Relationship in American Tradâ€
> 
> Me: â€œNice jacket. Who did you get it from?â€
> Buddy: â€œI got it at Xâ€
> Me: â€œNo, I said, who did you get it from?â€
> Buddy: â€œWhat are you talking about? Youâ€™re nuts.â€
> Me: â€œNever mind . . . â€
> 
> I had another American Trad epiphany today as I was enjoying the sampler of ales at the Harvest Moon Brewery and CafÃ© in New Brunswick, New Jersey. This was after an intense day of teaching Lifeguarding at Rutgers. ( No, not my day job . . . but, maybe I should let you think that. That would be a hoot.) The pub owner comes up and starts talking to me, and we spent a good half hour or so talking about beer, brewing, and stuff like that. I then realized how I often get into conversations like this, and develop subsequent good merchant/customer relationships like that (with me it is the Ship Inn, Triumph, and Conteâ€™s in NJ), and that these have grown out of my passion for good ale and the conviviality that come from a pub.
> 
> Then, I realized it is like that for those passionate about American Trad. The conversation above is fictional, but it makes the point that most guys donâ€™t know from whom they buy their wardrobe. Count me in, too. I have been a Brooks customer for more than 28 years now, but it is not like I have developed any merchant/customer relationship with their staff. As I have been wading through the voluminous posts on this forum, the parallel came to me. You share about David at JPress, Barbara at The Andover Shop, Izzy at LS clothing, Mr. Winston at Chipp, Nick Hilton, Billy Roberts at Eljoâ€™s, Ed Zapatka at The Shoemart - just to name a few - and how sincerely wonderful they are, and how they have been a help to you over many, many years. And I believe this is true.
> 
> Cheers,
> Winn
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes,Conte's. One of the greatest! Many of our friends here might be a bit puzzled by the atmosphere that could be described as neo depression, but it is one of our favorites. You have to be able to see the charm in a local softball team at the bar spilling beer on you while you are waiting for a table.Truly a local treasure.
> 
> To the merchant customer relationship, I would also add Dave Mercer. Although we have never met in person, I recently looked at my closet and concluded that it would have been more reasonable to have adopted Dave and Serena rather than becoming a customer.
> 
> Another thread had posts on merchants going the 10th mile when it wasn't expected. I had a couple of shirts sent back for minor repairs, that were not at all a major item.
> 
> Dave repaired the flaws and sent a new pink BD at no charge. Truly the 10th mile in my experience.
> 
> Best regards, Bill
Click to expand...

Bill, I've come to appreciate Triumph for the beer selection and the fish n' chips. I like the downstairs booth/bar area when it's busy. A pretty good vibe. Plus, it's close to Micawber's, where I waste too many afternoons browsing. Typically I use Micawber's as a library, where I read everything I just bought at Micawber's.

As for the Annex: eaten there many times. The wife, a Princetonian, has mixed feelings about the place. When it's slow, it's a tad depressing. My favorite beer-and-burger spots are Winberie's and the Yankee Doodle Tap Room.

My wife's current favorite is the Blue Point Grill, so we're there quite a lot.

You out-trad all of us simply by being a Nassau Club man. You lucky swell!

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## bosthist

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> This is also backed by the fact that any Republicans who were or might have been perceived as Northeastern "elitists" were trad: Henry Cabot Lodge Jr., George H.W. Bush, John Chafee....Coolidge probably would've been too had he lived 30 years later.


Not sure how Coolidge would have been considered a Northeastern elitist, given his family background. If you ever go to his birthplace in Vermont you will see that his beginnings were quite modest.

Regards,

Charles

"Si monumentum requiris, circumpsice"


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> This is also backed by the fact that any Republicans who were or might have been perceived as Northeastern "elitists" were trad: Henry Cabot Lodge Jr., George H.W. Bush, John Chafee....Coolidge probably would've been too had he lived 30 years later.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how Coolidge would have been considered a Northeastern elitist, given his family background. If you ever go to his birthplace in Vermont you will see that his beginnings were quite modest.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> "Si monumentum requiris, circumpsice"
Click to expand...

Coolidge himself was not upper crust but the Coolidge family had many prominent members. Coolidge, despite his rural roots, still received an "elitist" northern education at St. Johnsbury Academy and Amherst. I sure wouldn't call Coolidge "populist". The man barely said a word.


----------



## winn

"My wife's current favorite is the Blue Point Grill, so we're there quite a lot."

It's the best seafood restaurant in P'ton!
Check out the fish and chips to-go at their companion place next door, Nassau Street Seafood. Sometime soon, their new establishment, a chop house, Witherspoon Grill (I think I have the name right), will be opening up next to the new public library.

Fish and Chips at Triumph: My only experience being in a focus group was for the restaurant menu at Triumph. I remember saying that my friends don't like tapas, and that they really like pub food, like a good plate of fish and chips (pass the malt vinegar, please.). Tapas aren't on the menu any more. My times at Triumph are during the quieter hours - Saturday afternoons after doing errands and stuff - with the NY Times and a handpulled pint. (Some Sunday afternoons, too.), or after work on a week night. I want to try to work with entertainment organizers to get sessions going sometime - that is, rounding up all the British/Irish traditional musicians I know to let them play their hearts out. We will see about that. I have been a faithful customer of Triumph since their start over ten years ago. I was shocked by all the photos I saw myself in at their 10th anniversary event.

Attempt to make clothing reference for non P'ton readers: Conte's Pizza is a stone's throw away from Nick Hilton. Great Pizza.

Now, I'm thirsty...

Cheers,

Winn


----------



## n/a

Bill, you are very kind.

We should discuss over lunch. It's likely I'll drive down to Princeton next week. I'll keep you up to date. Maybe Lahiere's?

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## n/a

Which day of the week are you and Winn meeting? -Harris


----------



## winn

Monday, 6pm, Nassau Club. Can you join us?


----------



## winn

_Plough Monday
9 January 2006_

â€œI donâ€™t know any American Trad vegans.â€

(Still navel gazing after my first week here. Bear with me.)

When it comes to food and eating out, I am a meat-and-potatoes comfort food kinda guy. When traveling around the USA, I like to seek out what the traditional foods are for the locale I am in, and to check them out, and enjoy with abandon as the locals do.

Four favorites to share with you:
Baltimore, MD - I grew up knowing â€œVirginia is for lovers.â€ while in my home state â€œMaryland is for crabs.â€ Faidleyâ€™s - Lexington Market - No contest. The best jumbo lump crabcake. I love you, Nancy!

Chapel Hill, NC - Mama Dipâ€™s Kitchen. Great southern food. https://www.mamadips.com I love you, Mildred!

Syracuse, NY (and now NYC, too as well as Rochester, NY) - Dinosaur BBQ. My favorite BBQ place. In Syracuse, all the guys with their Harleys stop here. https://www.dinosaurbarbque.com

Ann Arbor, MI - Zingermanâ€™s. Every time I go here I want to take this deli home.

My guides in these adventures in eating have been word-of-mouth, as well the writings of Jane and Michael Stern, Road Food and Good Food. Also, Jim Leff, https://www.chowhound.com From Jim: â€œChowhounds...blaze trails, combing gleefully through neighborhoods for hidden culinary treasure. They despise hype, and while they appreciate refined ambiance and service, they canâ€™t be fooled by mere flash.â€

I am not trying to start a food fight here of who has the best whatever. Letâ€™s save that for Interchange. I am trying to illustrate my point that my American Trad choice in what I wear extends to my American Trad interests in food. Timeless. Consistent. Comfortable.

Having just spent this evening of Plough Monday - the last blast of Christmastide - reveling and feasting with my friends, Cheers to you,

Winn


----------



## Tom Buchanan

> quote:_Originally posted by winn_
> [Four favorites to share with you:
> Baltimore, MD - I grew up knowing â€œVirginia is for lovers.â€ while in my home state â€œMaryland is for crabs.â€ Faidleyâ€™s - Lexington Market - No contest. The best jumbo lump crabcake. I love you, Nancy!


I just had to chime in to welcome another Marylander and agree that Faidley's is the undisputed best crab cake. Even in Baltimore, which takes crab cakes very (perhaps too) seriously, Faidley's is generally regarded as the best. And just to keep my post on topic of trad, I believe it is best if eaten while wearing some vintage Jos. Bank (from when they were Maryland made and still trad cut) clothes or maybe a North Sails squall jacket.


----------



## Brooksfan

> _Originally posted by winn_
> [ I have been a Brooks customer for more than 28 years now, but it is not like I have developed any merchant/customer relationship with their staff. As I have been wading through the voluminous posts on this forum, the parallel came to me. You share about David at JPress, Barbara at The Andover Shop, Izzy at LS clothing, Mr. Winston at Chipp, Nick Hilton, Billy Roberts at Eljoâ€™s, Ed Zapatka at The Shoemart - just to name a few - and how sincerely wonderful they are, and how they have been a help to you over many, many years. And I believe this is true.
> 
> Winn-you are right. I have collected every article I could find on Brooks over the years and distinctly remember one in which it discussed the longevity of the staff at 346 back in the day. The example it used was a salesman who had always waited on J. P. Morgan. I'm not sure of the salesman's name but I think it was Mr. Webb...anyway, Mr. Morgan walks in one morning and says "Good morning, Mr. Webb." Without missing a beat the salesman said "Good morning, Jack." Those days are long gone and those of us who still buy from Brooks are fortunate to find knowledgable staff who've remained there through all the ownership, style and quality changes that have gone on over the past 25 years. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be a career that young people have any desire to pursue. I have a 17-year old daughter and when I suggested to her she look at Brooks as a place to work or buy clothes she gave me the same answer as when I tried to get her interested in golf: "Dad you might as well put your pajamas on, cause you're dreaming."


----------



## IncrediBoyle

BrooksFan 
You should encourage your daughter to try for a job at Brooks because she'll make better money and more contacts there than any other place at her age. Plus she'll get you wonderful gifts.


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Brooksfan_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by winn_
> [ I have been a Brooks customer for more than 28 years now, but it is not like I have developed any merchant/customer relationship with their staff. As I have been wading through the voluminous posts on this forum, the parallel came to me. You share about David at JPress, Barbara at The Andover Shop, Izzy at LS clothing, Mr. Winston at Chipp, Nick Hilton, Billy Roberts at Eljoâ€™s, Ed Zapatka at The Shoemart - just to name a few - and how sincerely wonderful they are, and how they have been a help to you over many, many years. And I believe this is true.
> 
> Winn-you are right. I have collected every article I could find on Brooks over the years and distinctly remember one in which it discussed the longevity of the staff at 346 back in the day. The example it used was a salesman who had always waited on J. P. Morgan. I'm not sure of the salesman's name but I think it was Mr. Webb...anyway, Mr. Morgan walks in one morning and says "Good morning, Mr. Webb." Without missing a beat the salesman said "Good morning, Jack." Those days are long gone and those of us who still buy from Brooks are fortunate to find knowledgable staff who've remained there through all the ownership, style and quality changes that have gone on over the past 25 years. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be a career that young people have any desire to pursue. I have a 17-year old daughter and when I suggested to her she look at Brooks as a place to work or buy clothes she gave me the same answer as when I tried to get her interested in golf: "Dad you might as well put your pajamas on, cause you're dreaming."
> 
> 
> 
> Brooksfan -- if you ever get time and inclination -- I'd love to see a bibliography of the collection of Brooks articles that you have.
> 
> I have the little ditto sheet of about 15 or 20 pages that is a Brooks history from late 80's I think -- sold on Amazon, that I could distribute to the Trads here.
> 
> My thoughts on why there aren't any "young people" who've chosen a career at Brooks probably has something to do with the rents in NYC and the fact that you know, you don't get a pension from Brooks. I'm guessing but may be proved wrong that the old guys were taken care of back then.
Click to expand...


----------



## winn

â€œGenetic Disposition Towards American Trad? Itâ€™s not my culture, Itâ€™s me!â€

Here is a post by Harris from 25 March 2005, entitled â€œBostonians and Virginiansâ€:
_â€œRecent travels in years past have taken me to Boston and Virginia, among other places. The two spots on the map "stick out" (to me) as Trad havens. During every visit to Boston, I see at least a dozen or so authentically Trad gents. During my visits to the Old Dominion, I see more--much more--of the same. I wonder what it is about these two spots. Whatever it is, it's something that NYC lacks (big time). I remain impressed with the manner in which Southerners dress in general, but Virginians seems to take tradition rather seriously.

Maybe this is why, when Flusser chose include J. Press in his book about great mens' shops, he included the Cambridge--and ONLY the Cambridge--shop, even though the inventory in all four is likely the same.

Just a couple of observations, for what their worth. Albemarle County out-trads Greenwich any day of the week.â€_

Great. I donâ€™t need to probe within anymore. Itâ€™s genetic.

Father (God rest his soul!) = Malden, Massachusetts
Mother (God rest her soul!) = Delaplane, Fauqueir County, Virginia...and all that FFV stuff.

Although I grew up in Bethesda, Maryland, I settled in Princeton as an adult, for it is a lot like Charlottesville - at least it was back in 1977 when I got here after commencement.

I would add the whole area around Middleburg, Virginia, too as bastions of Trad in the Old Dominion, especially on the days of the Races!

I alluded earlier to my abiding interest in continuing to learn about American history, and I said this to a Princeton Dean one day how Virginia is soaked in history. He corrected me by telling me it was waterlogged.

Cheers,
Winn


----------



## Mr. Knightly

I despair of ever establishing such a relationship with an individual salesman. Working in academic fields, I won't have to/be able to shop as frequently. Furthermore, the tastes I've developed on this forum have led me to such places as Filene's and ebay, primarily. Finally, I'll be living in a few different places over the next couple of years--probably the most important years for developing my wardrobe.

I suppose my father's salesman knows me and gives me good deals on alterations. However, I can only afford to pick up an occasional tie at his shop. The price points are way over my head.

I did, however, make a considerable purchase at Brooks recently. It threw off my entire budget for the semester but I suppose I'll just have to retrench. It was worth it. The best part: the transaction ended with a handshake and I now have my salesman's business card. Maybe he'll remember me in 5 years when I can next afford to go shopping, ha.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


----------



## Horace

If your a 9 1/2 or 10 D -- there's a tradly Sebago penny on sale. Maybe a clearance on
the old USA made Sebago's. Kind of like the old Weejun.



Also, ShoeMart sale (10%) for another few days.


----------



## n/a

Not to hijack the topic, but, to reference another forum post, I wonder if the revello shell cordovan loafer (Alden) is close to the "antique brown" shade the the old Weejun purists favor. I'm heading up I-95 next week and will pop into Shoe Mart to see for myself. I plan on taking my own (actually, my Dad's) old N734 (USA-made) Weejuns to compare and contrast. I've been wanting a classic brown (not burgundy or maroon) penny loafer for a while, and the fact that it's shell cordovan makes it all the more attractive. Cheers, Harris


----------



## n/a

Here's the shoe about which I just wrote. It screams "Ivy League." Cries out for a pair of argyle cocks and cuffed grey flannels.



Cheers,
Harris


----------



## winn

My hunch is that the Revello will not be that close in color to the N734. Prove me wrong. I bet the 984 is actually closer in color. (Returning from closet) The description on the shoe box for N734 says "Dark brown".

Help! I am having thread schizophrenia. Where am I? the "American Trad" thread or the "Trad shoe question for Harris, et al" thread?

Cheers,
Winn


----------



## Horace

I got the recent newsletter from ShoeMart -- the one with the specially made Aldens. I must confess I'm almost starting to like one of the monkstraps.

As for colors -- it looks like some of the colors in pics on their site are a bit off.

They've got that burnished tan -- that looks really dark on one shoe and really light on another.

I'll find the links and repost when I can.

If you read it in time, Harris, perhaps you could give me your opinion on the colors if you see them at the shop.


----------



## Coolidge24

Whatever happened to "stanshall"....haven't seen our trad brother on the forum for a long while?


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by stephenson_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Here's the shoe about which I just wrote. It screams "Ivy League." Cries out for a pair of argyle cocks and cuffed grey flannels.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris
> 
> 
> 
> Very nice. I wonder how these differ from the 986? Must be a different last.
> 
> Shoe Mart is probably having a sale. However, Kevin at Richaard's has his sale signs in the windows now, which usually mean 20% off, even if he has to order them.
> 
> Best regards, Bill
Click to expand...

Bill, I'm pretty sure this shoe features the same last as the 986.

-Harris


----------



## mendozar

> quote:_Originally posted by Brooksfan_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by winn_
> [ I have been a Brooks customer for more than 28 years now, but it is not like I have developed any merchant/customer relationship with their staff. As I have been wading through the voluminous posts on this forum, the parallel came to me. You share about David at JPress, Barbara at The Andover Shop, Izzy at LS clothing, Mr. Winston at Chipp, Nick Hilton, Billy Roberts at Eljoâ€™s, Ed Zapatka at The Shoemart - just to name a few - and how sincerely wonderful they are, and how they have been a help to you over many, many years. And I believe this is true.
> 
> Winn-you are right. I have collected every article I could find on Brooks over the years and distinctly remember one in which it discussed the longevity of the staff at 346 back in the day. The example it used was a salesman who had always waited on J. P. Morgan. I'm not sure of the salesman's name but I think it was Mr. Webb...anyway, Mr. Morgan walks in one morning and says "Good morning, Mr. Webb." Without missing a beat the salesman said "Good morning, Jack." Those days are long gone and those of us who still buy from Brooks are fortunate to find knowledgable staff who've remained there through all the ownership, style and quality changes that have gone on over the past 25 years. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be a career that young people have any desire to pursue. I have a 17-year old daughter and when I suggested to her she look at Brooks as a place to work or buy clothes she gave me the same answer as when I tried to get her interested in golf: "Dad you might as well put your pajamas on, cause you're dreaming."
> 
> 
> 
> When I was a kid, I would get clothes at "Brooks Boys" on the 2nd floor of the Madison Ave flagship store with a salesman named Larry. I eventually grew up and moved to the men's section. Years later, I find Larry at the 5th avenue store, which I sometimes go to since it's closer to home. He remembered both me and my parents.
> 
> Another relationship has started with Phil from Hickey Freeman (next door to 5th ave Brooks), who usually sends a handwritten thank you note after I purchase. He also advises of "private sales". Anyway, he now works at the new Wall Street location, so I suppose I'll have to get to know someone else at the 5th avenue store. Still, if I ever find myself working near NYSE, WFC, would definitely consider swinging by.
> 
> Still, I think it would be easier to fortify relationships if salespeople stayed longer at their locations (ie, I met Arthur at the Washington, D.C. J. Press and saw a mention of him somewhere on the board, so I assume he's been there for quite some time)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rufino
Click to expand...


----------



## Brooksfan

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Brooksfan_
> 
> 
> 
> Brooksfan -- if you ever get time and inclination -- I'd love to see a bibliography of the collection of Brooks articles that you have.
> 
> I have the little ditto sheet of about 15 or 20 pages that is a Brooks history from late 80's I think -- sold on Amazon, that I could distribute to the Trads here.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Horace-sorry I didn't catch the fact you had asked for the bibliography. I'll try to get it done next weekend and post it on the site. If you email me your address I'll copy the articles I have if you want them. Some are pretty interesting.
Click to expand...


----------



## Doctor Damage

Can anyone suggest what might be the...er...'most economical' 3-button sack blazer on the market? I'd like one, but with RSP contribution season at hand I don't want to splash out.

Thanks,
DD


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Can anyone suggest what might be the...er...'most economical' 3-button sack blazer on the market? I'd like one, but with RSP contribution season at hand I don't want to splash out.
> 
> Thanks,
> DD


I think your best bet is the usual suspects on sale. I wonder if Hunter & Coggins could get you a 3 button version of their cheap 2 button at

https://www.hunterandcoggins.com/blazers.htm

horrible fabric but perhaps tradly non-the-less.

They have Corbins for around $325.


----------



## Horace

I'm feeling fairly paterfamilias and whatnot in my new Brooks robe:

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ction_Id=512&Product_Id=1013518&Parent_Id=227

nice shawl collar, deep shade of navy with silvery-white trim. Made in England. Partially lined. Very well-done. Unfortunately not sized save S, M, L, XL.

Got it for Christmas and it goes well with my Peal slippers of last year:

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ection_Id=225&Product_Id=521688&Parent_Id=202

Also noticed that Bean is making their flannel robes in the US, still:

On sale for $29.95 -- not bad. Though the one not on sale is "imported".


----------



## Doctor Damage

Probably some trads in here...


----------



## James Gordon E.

> quote:_Originally posted by Brooksfan_
> ...I have a 17-year old daughter and when I suggested to her she look at Brooks as a place to work or buy clothes she gave me the same answer as when I tried to get her interested in golf: "Dad you might as well put your pajamas on, cause you're dreaming."


I'm approaching an age at which I'm sure my parents wouldn't exactly object to my having employment of some kind; Would Brooks Brothers normally hire someone so young?

---
Boldly and Cheerfully


----------



## Patrick06790

I found myself with an unexpected windfall - a check for some stuff I wrote ages ago and forgot about.

So I went ape at STP and got one of each:







They look pretty darn Tradly with a twist to me.


----------



## jmorgan32

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Not to hijack the topic, but, to reference another forum post, I wonder if the revello shell cordovan loafer (Alden) is close to the "antique brown" shade the the old Weejun purists favor. I'm heading up I-95 next week and will pop into Shoe Mart to see for myself. I plan on taking my own (actually, my Dad's) old N734 (USA-made) Weejuns to compare and contrast. I've been wanting a classic brown (not burgundy or maroon) penny loafer for a while, and the fact that it's shell cordovan makes it all the more attractive. Cheers, Harris


Hey Harris, I hope you are doing well. Quick question here- in many of your posts you discuss your tweed jackets etc. However, in one that I remember from long ago, I think you mentioned you wear suits most days to work. 
Two part question-
1. What kind of suits (brands) do you wear mostly? Of course, I know they are sack suits.....No question there.
2. What shoes do you wear with your suits? I know you love your 986 and 984. You mentioned you alternate them on weekends etc......Do you wear them with suits too?

Thanks and all the best, 
Joe


----------



## Horace

Our esteemed friend, Bothhist, recommended the Complete New Yorker archives on CD-ROM.

Some very good stuff -- still learning to use the search functions but an article from 1938 about Brooks is worth reading. It costs about $60 now discounted. Probably available on web. I had someone pick it up for me and I don't know where she got it.

I am tempted to stay up all night and read around in the articles. But sleep and responsibility call.

If I ever have enough time to sit down -- I will try to either copy or scan or somehow through up a few of the articles.

There's a very interesting one on the Andover Shop. Just a brief thing really. But it's interesting that the writer was calling in '58 or '59 the Trad look as the "Brooks-Andover" look.


----------



## Patrick06790

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> Our esteemed friend, Bothhist, recommended the Complete New Yorker archives on CD-ROM.
> 
> Some very good stuff -- still learning to use the search functions but an article from 1938 about Brooks is worth reading. It costs about $60 now discounted. Probably available on web. I had someone pick it up for me and I don't know where she got it.
> 
> I am tempted to stay up all night and read around in the articles. But sleep and responsibility call.
> 
> If I ever have enough time to sit down -- I will try to either copy or scan or somehow through up a few of the articles.
> 
> There's a very interesting one on the Andover Shop. Just a brief thing really. But it's interesting that the writer was calling in '58 or '59 the Trad look as the "Brooks-Andover" look.


Second. There's so much material, it's hard to know where to start.

Nothing to do with the Trad, but for a good laugh read "The Great Gouamba" by A.J. Liebling. 1946-47 or so.


----------



## Mr. Knightly

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Here's the shoe about which I just wrote. It screams "Ivy League." Cries out for a pair of argyle cocks and cuffed grey flannels.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


Which do all of you prefer, revello dark tan, or the #8 shell?

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


----------



## Mr. Knightly

I'm a little nervous doing this now, but I'm going to bump this thread because I haven't gotten any answers to my question. Also, it seems to be getting less play since Harris took off. Perhaps this will be the carrot to bring Clark Kent out of hiding? (Sorry for the mixed metaphor)

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


----------



## longwing

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Knightly_
> 
> Which do all of you prefer, revello dark tan, or the #8 shell?
> 
> Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
> But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
> For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


My point of view is that a variety of cordovan colors is great for those who choose to only wear 2 styles of shoe. I like a greater variety of styles, so I'm happy to stick with No. 8.


----------



## n/a

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Hello to all. I'm Harris--not to be confused with "A Harris," whom I believe has been a forum member for some time.
> 
> I live in the Northeastern U.S. and tend toward the American Look. Or trad or whatever you wish to call it. Sack suits, tassel loafers, shetland crewnecks, Harris Tweeds, madras, etc.
> 
> I am interested in knowing how many forum members have stuck with this look--the J. Press-Brooks-Andover Shop crowd.
> 
> Harris


----------



## KenR

Add a little Paul Stuart on sale and that's me! It's mostly Brooks though.


----------



## Horace

> quote:[
> 
> Which do all of you prefer, revello dark tan, or the #8 shell?


I prefer the No. 8 -- it's the original. Though Phil's special order longwings in Whiskey were pretty swell looking.

Horace, Sect no. 2039.


----------



## Tom Rath

Ive been stopped on the streets of Manhattan 3 times while I am wearing them, and asked where I got them. 

I just love them, and I am actually back on the waiting list for another pair.


----------



## Tom Rath

Oh, just remembered, I am stopping by the Polo Mansion on Feb 8th for their MTM trunk show - I cant recall if it was Horace or Harris who was curious, but I had promised to inquire about the Princeton model coat, to see if it had darts.


----------



## winn

"Post-Harris" (although I would rather say "Post, Harris!")

It was just a month or so ago that I found this place, AAAC, and I was thinking how do I enter into it. I chose this thread, and I chose to respond to the inquiry of Harris of 14 September 2004. (See 1 January 2006, page 16.) I'll betcha that inquiry may have been his first post, too. - the Alpha - and the repeat of that post above (26 January 2006) is the Omega of his time among us.

The response of Harris to my first post was:
_Tell us more about how/when/where you opted for trad. I had no choice in the matter, and thus remain interested in people who did._ (Harris, 1 January 2006, AM, page 16)

Good question, too. I responded again on the same day...and I added this inquiry to you:
_I would hope other forum members would respond to this inquiry of how/when/where of going American/Trad in style... which ultimately leads to answering the question â€œWhy?â€_ (1 January 2006, PM, page 16)

The discussions here have been great and very helpful to me. I probably will not start any _new_ trad threads but bring my thoughts here with an attempt at a clever witty title. (I do that because this thread is like a cocktail party with various discussions happening at once.) I will stay here, this thread, with my trad thoughts and ideas _to keep this thing going_. (The tradly thing to do, eh?)

The "Omega" post of Harris is saying "Keep it going, boys. This is good stuff."

There is still a lot to talk about - I am still mining this thread and other similar ones to see what I can find. Old threads can still be revived by new readers. Look, I have done it here and on interchange, and I haven't been tossed out yet.

There is hundreds of years of trad experience among us. Until I came here, I felt like a lone hunter/forager/gatherer in respect to defining my style, without a guide besides what I would see out on the streets of P'ton.

Patrick has said elsewhere _"I'll do my part to keep this thing going, in my clumsy way."_ That is my thought, exactly.

With much appreciation and respect to Harris
(and with the hope that I can come close to articulate it as well as he did),

Cheers,

Winn

Note: Even before the events of this past week, there has been more traffic on this thread in January compared to the total posts in this thread of the last quarter, 2005.


----------



## Patrick06790

I have tried the new Land's End 3" tie and find it pleasing. At $35 a pop it's not a budget buster either; I had enough left over to get a bad haircut.

https://www.landsend.com/cd/fp/prod...l?CM_MERCH=PAGE_36617&sid=6369124508295101970


----------



## Markus

A couple of thoughts on the continuation of the Trad discussion here...

First off, welcome, Winn. And thanks for your interest in continuing these discussions here. I think many of us have found AAAC a welcome shelter from the sartorial chaos in the world. Most people like to be told they are right and reinforced in their thinking and actions and us trads here are no exceptions. I plead guilty to this but I think _it is okay._ The trad discussions here got me to change the way I was dressing and revert back to the style of clothing I had worn for much of my adult, post-university period. Where had I "gone" sartorially, in the meantime? I don't know, just kind of off into a general sort of non-style. The adjustment "back to trad" wasn't all that difficult--I had been wearing khakis and buttondowns. But I had also been wearing some fairly casual stuff that mirrored the taste of my (somewhat poorly dressed) co-workers. The trad and American Natural Shoulder discussions got me paying attention again and making conscious choices about the kind of clothing I enjoy wearing the most and am most comfortable in.

Last night I was the designated barista at a fund-raiser coffee house. One of my dear friends, a brilliant attorney, appeared, wearing a gorgeous, expensive-looking high-fashion shirt. Pale yellow, with unique and subtle stripes woven into the fabric (I know I'm not describing it clearly, sorry). It looked great on him and there was a moment when I felt somewhat dowdy in my striped BB button-down. But my discomfort did not last long. I take pleasure in my obstinancy and derive some satisfaction that, on most days, my trad selection sets me apart from most of the other fellows around me and that I tend to look somewhat more put-together than the more casually dressed guys around me.

Harris's absence is regrettable. And I think the trads here will miss him greatly. But I also think there is still a lot of knowledge on this board and perhaps, if everyone "chips in" a little more with their thoughts and experience, the place will remain as enriching and fun as ever.

Best regards,

Markus


----------



## young guy

> quote:_Originally posted by Markus_
> Harris's absence is regrettable. And I think the trads here will miss him greatly. But I also think there is still a lot of knowledge on this board and perhaps, if everyone "chips in" a little more with their thoughts and experience, the place will remain as enriching and fun as ever.
> Best regards,
> Markus


Markus,

Thanks and quite right. I was really bummed because Harris had to leave for personal reasons and I still hope things workout OK for him. I am now encouraged that a number of people have stepped forward, or perhaps I should say continue to step forward to discuss a style of clothing I have come to appreciate. I may just be a "wanna-be-trad" but I do appreciate everones imput - so thanks to all!
Cheers


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by Phil_
> 
> Ive been stopped on the streets of Manhattan 3 times while I am wearing them, and asked where I got them.
> 
> I just love them, and I am actually back on the waiting list for another pair.


Were did you order them again?


----------



## Horace

Gentlemen:

Some of us had wagered that the pink Oxford cloth BD shirt (the Tradest of Trad) had its origins somewhere around 1948 or 1949. Before my time. Someone had posted an advert. I just read this in the New Yorker, which pushes the date back even further to sometime in the 1920's, at least. Apparently the confusion stems from a previously published article about Brooks that confuses the date of the introduction of the womens' pink shirt with that of the mens':

[An abstract from Talk of the Town, a column in the New Yorker (1949) ]:

Talk story about Brooks Brothers making pink shirts for women. John C. Wood, president, said that the store is swamp ed with orders for ladies' pink shirts. The pink shirt for men has been a specialty of the house for 25 years, and the shade was a particular pink. The cloth is of Egyptian cotton, yarn-dyed, and woven for Brooks Brothers at a mill in Wauregan, Conn. About a year ago Brooks noticed that more and more pink shirts were worn by women and they didn't look as well as they should. Mr. Wood asked the Vogue people if the would design a pink shirt especially for women. They were delighted with the idea. The pink shirt for womer has a precedent in Brooks sweater for women, but that's as far as the store will go in restyling anything else for women.


----------



## Tom Rath

Horace- I got them from Alden of Carmel.


----------



## bry2000

Alden of Carmel is sold out of the whisky longwings and is not expecting a new shipment for 6 to 8 months. I like them as well although I really don't like the Barrie last.


----------



## Tom Rath

Bry- The waiting times for the whiskey shell were long for this batch. I think I waited about 11 months for my current pair. I am back on the reserve list for the next pair of 11D, which Adam estimated at about 9 months away from now. 

The barrie last is unusual. Its so wide and roomy that I have to wear an 11C in the chukka boot, but still take an 11D in the longwing or any shoe that comes in the barrie last.


----------



## xcubbies

It's sale time, and I've noticed that Orvis hasn't marked down the single malt tweeds that I've noticed a while back. I was looking through the thread to see if there were any observations about the quality of these tweeds. (Some of the more astute of you may recall I blasted Orvis's clothing before.) I've been coveting the so-called Skye tweed. Worth a try or would my Press tweeds refuse to share the closet ?


----------



## daltx

I was curious as to what suit brands are more trad than others, such as Southwick, Samuelsohn. Thanks in advance for the advice.


----------



## Patrick06790

The Brooks "University" (i.e. skinny) ties have made it to the outlets - at least the one in Lee, Mass.

I bought three (for $89). Couldn't restrain myself.


----------



## Mr. Knightly

They were at Filene's at the start of the month. I picked up the navy with pink stripes and a gold with red crests. I think I'll wear the navy and pink to a chamber orchestra concert tonight.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


----------



## Brooksfan

Originally posted by Patrick06790
The Brooks "University" (i.e. skinny) ties have made it to the outlets ...

Was just catching up on my reading and picked up my Jan. 30 _Autoweek_ and saw their interview with Ralph. Most of it centered on cars but I found his observation about tradition being updated and as a case in point he acknowledged he got his start by selling wide ties when everyone else sold narrow ties, and now he's selling narrow ties...


----------



## Old Brompton

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> Where does the Trad stand in the matter of man clogs?


I stand as far away from "man clogs" as is humanly possible. [V]


----------



## marc_au

ls the Crockett & Jones *Onslow* in Shell Cordovan a really trad looking shoe?

Regards: The Shooman.

*GR8MAN (The Shooman) B8MAN.*


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz

Now, if someone were *really* nasty, he might use some inane post to bring this thread back up to the front page in response to Mr. DiLiberti's question ... and so that all of our visiting friends from Style Forum might have the opportunity to get really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, *BORED* educated on this subject.

But I don't know anyone who would do such a thing. Do you?

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## shuman

I cant seem to get into wearing black shoes, even with suits. Is there any Trad way to wear black shoes? Which ones, laceups or loafers?


----------



## Rich

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> I cant seem to get into wearing black shoes, even with suits. Is there any Trad way to wear black shoes? Which ones, laceups or loafers?


Black cordovan plain fronted bluchers are permissible with a suit, aren't they?


----------



## jmorgan32

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> I cant seem to get into wearing black shoes, even with suits. Is there any Trad way to wear black shoes? Which ones, laceups or loafers?


I wear black Alden shell cordovan tassel loafers all the time with navy and charcoal suits.


----------



## misterman

fo' real



> quote:_Originally posted by n/a_
> 
> Hello to all. I'm Harris--not to be confused with "A Harris," whom I believe has been a forum member for some time.
> 
> I live in the Northeastern U.S. and tend toward the American Look. Or trad or whatever you wish to call it. Sack suits, tassel loafers, shetland crewnecks, Harris Tweeds, madras, etc.
> 
> I am interested in knowing how many forum members have stuck with this look--the J. Press-Brooks-Andover Shop crowd.
> 
> Harris


----------



## Horace

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> I cant seem to get into wearing black shoes, even with suits. Is there any Trad way to wear black shoes? Which ones, laceups or loafers?


I can't find them on the website right now, but the Brooks black plain cap-toe with punched band is my favorite to wear with a navy or grey suit. These I also like:

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...d=225&pcount=&Product_Id=910679&Parent_Id=202

And, as above, the plain black blucher.

Friends of mine wear the black tassle loafer in cordo or calf.


----------



## misterman

hold out for the taupe british short warm or the cotton twill storm coat coming for fall '06.



> quote:_Originally posted by n/a_
> 
> I second the mention of Ben Silver. The fall catalog is overhwelming. Alden shell cordovan, Harris tweeds, regimental repp, and on and on. The Prenner family do justice to the American look, even if everything is a tad pricey. The "Factory Outlet" on the website is worth a look.
> 
> As for J. Press, the fall catalog offers a good selection--including that smart Glen Plaid suit on page one. I live about thirty minutes from the NYC store, so I typically drop by for a look once every few weeks. Strange that they're not offering the camel hair polo coat this year. Nor is Brooks.
> 
> Harris


----------



## misterman

that is cool!



> quote:_Originally posted by n/a_
> 
> Well, I'm glad to see there are a few devotees of the Trad look. The American style takes something of a beating these days, but there are still a few of us around.
> 
> As to the question about bowties: yes, I wear them. Not every day, but occasionally. More than half the time. I have gotten into the habit of wearing grosgrain watchbands and belts with everything, including the most formal of suits and sportcoat-trouser combinations.
> 
> Harris


----------



## misterman

check out the new NATO grosgrain watch straps at j. press, made in england.



> quote:_Originally posted by kidkim2_
> 
> Harris--Would you mind telling me where you find the grosgrain watchbands? I'd love to get my hands on a few. . . .


----------



## mpcsb

> quote:_Originally posted by misterman_
> 
> check out the new NATO grosgrain watch straps at j. press, made in england.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by kidkim2_
> 
> Harris--Would you mind telling me where you find the grosgrain watchbands? I'd love to get my hands on a few. . . .
Click to expand...

I just got two new grosgrain bands from Trent at Eljo's. I think they are nicer than the ones I got from Brooks. Seems like a finer weave.
Cheers


----------



## Doctor Damage

More photos from Princeton. These should be good for some discussion, especially the first.

The first photo is from 1950: the Triangle Club rehearsing for their annual play.



Princeton football awarded Lambert Tropy in 1951 (coach Charles Caldwell at right, with David Hickock and Dick Kazmaier).



Students sitting on the steps of Nassau Hall, 1940s-50s.



Two students with Walter O'Malley and Buckminster Fuller, 1955.



Bill Bradley in 1966.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Three more photos from Princeton, a bit more modern. Note the decline in dress in the last one (sigh).

The dates, in order: (1) reunion in the 1990s; (2) 1993 Nobel Prize for Physics recipients Joseph H. Taylor Jr. and Russell A. Hulse; and (3) an English Lit class in 2004.


----------



## winn

The last Princeton photo looks like John Fleming - at least what I can see of him in the reflection on the monitor on the podium. Helluva guy, and great scholar of medieval lit and all things St. Francis. He is married to Rev. Joan Fleming, who just retired as Rector of historic Christ Church, New Brunswick, NJ, about a year ago.

Cheers,
Winn


----------



## shuman

On the BIlls website, the quotes in the newsletter from "the Hawg" picture him wearing bills khakis, bills shirt, ball cap, and *egads* is that a western buckle? Could it be *******/Southern Trad?


----------



## Fogey

This is the thread that never ends...yes it goes on and on my friends. Some people, started posting it not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting it forever just because this is the...


----------



## Doctor Damage

Here's some photos from the 1950s. Lots of khakis, flannels, and BDs.





Students on graduation day from college. Not footwear: brown pennies on the rear fellow, brown tassels on the fellow in the foreground.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Colour photos from the 1960s. These should bring back some memories.


----------



## Doctor Damage

More photos from the 1960s. Guess where these four guys are headed?



BBQ...love those penny loafers!


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_


Tennis the way it should be


----------



## shuman

I love the guys khakis in the second picture. Just baggy enough. Nice crispness. My Bills dont get that crispness. Maybe I'll have to try some Charlestons!


----------



## Harris

Is that guy sporting a Fred Perry tennis sweater? Nice.

Cheers,
Harris


----------



## Intrepid

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Is that guy sporting a Fred Perry tennis sweater? Nice.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris


Has to be with the wreath logo, doesn't it ?

Carpe Diem


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by Intrepid_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Is that guy sporting a Fred Perry tennis sweater? Nice.
> 
> Cheers,
> Harris
> 
> 
> 
> Has to be with the wreath logo, doesn't it ?
> 
> Carpe Diem
Click to expand...

Yeah I'd say thats definitely a Fred Perry logo


----------



## Doctor Damage

Keeping this thread warm so we don't lose it. Also lots of good reading for some of our newer members.


----------



## Harris

Dear God. It has become something of a beast, hasn't it?


----------



## Doctor Damage

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Dear God. It has become something of a beast, hasn't it?


Yes, and most of the blame falls squarely on your head.


----------



## Harris

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Dear God. It has become something of a beast, hasn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and most of the blame falls squarely on your head.
Click to expand...

And Horace's! By the way...where in the hell is Horace, anyway?


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Dear God. It has become something of a beast, hasn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and most of the blame falls squarely on your head.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And Horace's! By the way...where in the hell is Horace, anyway?
Click to expand...

In the forum run by the man who appreciates films like Laura and The Big Sleep and wrote the article on steedappeal. He seems to be inclined to be a bit nicer to us than the other people over there--to whom I guess we are a bunch of old, smelly fools. As Brownshoe noted in his post, I don't get it, especially the guff from Russell Street (Miles Away) over there but that's the internet.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Someone called longwing is there too, presumably not ours! But let's discuss this on the "Weird Hostility" thread so this one stays focused (sorry, that sounded rather imperious...just a suggestion really).


----------



## Coolidge24

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> LongWing is there too, apparently. But let's discuss this on the "Weird Hostility" thread so this one stays focused (sorry, that sounded rather imperious...just a suggestion really).


That's all right, I was just answering Harris's question but I agree with you.


----------



## mpcsb

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Dear God. It has become something of a beast, hasn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and most of the blame falls squarely on your head.
Click to expand...

Actually I'm very glad you started this thread. Look what it's turned into - very nice. I don't think I've actually thanked you for doing this. Starting a discussion of clothing I grew up with and continue to feel most comfortable wearing - so: Thank You.
This probably sounds like a suck-up, but it is sincerely meant. I'll stop now before this post becomes too insipid.
Cheers


----------



## Harris

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Dear God. It has become something of a beast, hasn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and most of the blame falls squarely on your head.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually I'm very glad you started this thread. Look what it's turned into - very nice. I don't think I've actually thanked you for doing this. Starting a discussion of clothing I grew up with and continue to feel most comfortable wearing - so: Thank You.
> This probably sounds like a suck-up, but it is sincerely meant. I'll stop now before this post becomes too insipid.
> Cheers
Click to expand...

Many sincere thanks. Truly.

I take great comfort in knowing there are other like minded (at least sartorially speaking) folks "out there...somewhere."


----------



## Doctor Damage

Just a refresh (this thread has much good reading material that we can't afford to lose).


----------



## msh14

This thread needs to be stickied


----------



## winn

I have been thinking of the role and place of this thread - the mother of them all for this forum. I am glad it has been resurrected, and I would like to suggest that members use this particular place to to tell their story - how one came to American/Trad, how one defines this style in one's life today, and any other relevant reflections. I think this particular thread is the best place for the "oral history".

I would encourage newer readers to this forum to use this thread as starting place, and to jump into the fray with their comments (and wit!).

Cheers,
Winn


----------



## Coolidge24

PLEASE STICKY THIS THREAD, and the one of the pictures of the AMERICAN TRAD MEN. 

They are vital to understanding what constitutes the look, and some basic principles have been forgotten/overlooked of late.


----------



## sunnisalafi

I'm just upping this.


----------



## shuman

How does the Southern Trad differ from the Northeastern Trad when the cooler months come?


----------



## crazyquik

Well it's not as cold for one thing.

Scarfs are rare and considered by many as effeminate. I understand they are much more mainstream in the Northeast.


----------



## Spooter

crazyquik said:


> Well it's not as cold for one thing.
> 
> Scarfs are rare and considered by many as effeminate. I understand they are much more mainstream in the Northeast.


Crazy! Scarfs as effeminate??? I guess the possibility is there in warm climes.....


----------



## rojo

crazyquik said:


> Well it's not as cold for one thing.
> 
> Scarfs are rare and considered by many as effeminate. I understand they are much more mainstream in the Northeast.


Yes. Spend a winter in Maine and they'll look far more kindly on scarfs. I remember icy windy mornings in January and February when you didn't want to be outside with any exposed skin.


----------



## Where Eagles Dare

crazyquik said:


> Well it's not as cold for one thing.
> 
> Scarfs are rare and considered by many as effeminate. I understand they are much more mainstream in the Northeast.


That's true in Louisville for sure. A friend once said to me, "the only males who wear scarfs are queers and uptight old men"!


----------



## Tom Buchanan

Where Eagles Dare said:


> That's true in Louisville for sure. A friend once said to me, "the only males who wear scarfs are queers and uptight old men"!


Perhaps it is a confusion of terminology. Some may be connoting "scarfs" or "scarves" differently than mufflers. I will grant you that wearing a silky neckerchief or whatever Alan Flusser writes up in his books as a great look on Cary Grant in "To Catch a Thief" are very effeminate.

I do not see much feminine about a tartan wool scarf keeping the wind out of the top of your overcoat. J. Press has carried the silk and wool variety for years. The U.S. military issues them to the honor guard and other troops in cold weather. I do not see the feminine connection.


----------



## shuman

Since the South doesnt get the extreme cold weather that the northeast gets, perhaps you dont see as much wool sweaters (more cotton?) and not as heavy outerwear in the winter months.


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## rojo

The kind of scarfs I wore during the Maine winter were what are also called mufflers, several feet long, made of wool or cashmere, and in a tartan, stripe, or dark solid. They had no resemblance to a silky neckerchief or ascot. (The alternative was to wear a turtleneck.) If men in Louisville object to this kind of scarf, a winter in Maine will change their minds. I remember many evenings with an air temperature of around 2 degrees Fahrenheit and a wind chill way, way below zero. The average daily January low in Louisville is 23 degrees. In Portland, Maine, it's 11 degrees. Portland is down in the southern part of the state and is considered balmy compared to other locales.

Then again if I lived in Louisville I probably wouldn't need to wear a muffler myself.


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## Coolidge24

Sounds like I can cross Louisville off the career locale list too.

Though anything except Connecticut and Boston pretty much aren't on there anyway.


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## Fogey

Where Eagles Dare said:


> That's true in Louisville for sure. A friend once said to me, "the only males who wear scarfs are queers and uptight old men"!


Do you agree with that statement? I've never heard that 'scarfs' are effeminate or uptight.


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## Thornhill

While 23 deg.F. is certainly _less cold_ than 11 deg.F, it is still cold. And when it comes to cold, I don't care what anyone says or does, a scarf/muffler will be worn.

Do these same men from Louisville refuse to wear overcoats in the name of masculinity and walk around with their hands jammed into their pants pockets and the collars of their suits or shirts turned up as a feeble attempt to block the cold or do they just not feel it?


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## Patrick06790

I've worn a scarf three or four times already, and it's only Nov. 1.

As to the other thing, I give you "The McEnroe Rejoinder, Or How To Silence a Loudmouth in Eight Easy Words."


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## mpcsb

Patrick06790 said:


> As to the other thing, I give you "The McEnroe Rejoinder, Or How To Silence a Loudmouth in Eight Easy Words."


Eh ? ? ?


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## Laxplayer

Patrick06790 said:


> I've worn a scarf three or four times already, and it's only Nov. 1.
> 
> As to the other thing, I give you "The McEnroe Rejoinder, Or How To Silence a Loudmouth in Eight Easy Words."


Wasn't Johnny Mac's catchphrase, "You cannot be serious!"?


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## Patrick06790

*The McEnroe Rejoinder*

Mac was giving a linesman a hard time, calling him an opprobrious name regarding the linesman's sexuality.

"Are you a [opprobrious name]?" screamed the boy.

The linesman, a big man who dwarfed Mac, said something like "Why don't you kiss me and find out."

Eight simple words. Guaranteed.


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## mpcsb

Patrick06790 said:


> Eight simple words. Guaranteed.


I _gotta_ remember that! Thanks,


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## Fogey

mpcsb said:


> I _gotta_ remember that! Thanks,


Ha!
...


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## Tom72

Sometimes winter in the semi-rural Southeast (that is, outside suburbia) is like a costume party, folks don't always really NEED to wear that wool sweater and turtleneck when it is 59 degrees in January, but if it was 72 yesterday and it may be 72 again tomorrow, you may not get another chance! I have a friend from ATL who went to a treatment center in Minnesota and stayed on as a counselor. One of his favorite memories about the experience was that he could actually wear his winter clothing purchases all winter long. 

Incidently, I have never heard the word muffler used except in regard to an automobile.

There is an explanation why a scarf is usually owned by a fellow, but infrequently worn, and it directly linked to the weather. Many men dispense with buying an overcoat entirely because it is so rarely needed. (I have an ancient one from the Irv Lewis Men's shop in Ithaca, NY where I spent an eternity of winters while in school). You walk out the door of your house, get in the car in the driveway, drive to work, park 30 feet way from the office, and you are back in central heating. However, if it is freezing and overcast, or there is the dreaded freezing rain in the offing, the usual practice is to zip the liner into the trusty raincoat, dig out the gloves and don the scarf. Wearing a scarf with a sport coat, or suit, or sweater only would look "quare", as they say in the hills, and that term is used in regard to anything that is outside the norm. 

The Louisville scarf issue obviously originates with a aberrant homophobe who has problems with authority. I will wager that it is not representative of Louisville. Most small Southern Cities have a traditional core that wears trad clothing (where do you think they sell the most GTH pants?), including scarves in winter. My goodness, they sell CAMO scarves at the outdoor stores for the fellows that don't even own a suit and tie! Go to any high school football stadium in the southeast on a chilly Friday night in November, there are scarves galore! I rest my case.

The simple rule is, buy a scarf, wear it when you need it, and shun bigots.


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## Foghorn

Tom72 said:


> Sometimes winter in the semi-rural Southeast (that is, outside suburbia) is like a costume party, folks don't always really NEED to wear that wool sweater and turtleneck when it is 59 degrees in January, but if it was 72 yesterday and it may be 72 again tomorrow, you may not get another chance! I have a friend from ATL who went to a treatment center in Minnesota and stayed on as a counselor. One of his favorite memories about the experience was that he could actually wear his winter clothing purchases all winter long.
> 
> Incidently, I have never heard the word muffler used except in regard to an automobile.
> 
> There is an explanation why a scarf is usually owned by a fellow, but infrequently worn, and it directly linked to the weather. Many men dispense with buying an overcoat entirely because it is so rarely needed. (I have an ancient one from the Irv Lewis Men's shop in Ithaca, NY where I spent an eternity of winters while in school). You walk out the door of your house, get in the car in the driveway, drive to work, park 30 feet way from the office, and you are back in central heating. However, if it is freezing and overcast, or there is the dreaded freezing rain in the offing, the usual practice is to zip the liner into the trusty raincoat, dig out the gloves and don the scarf. Wearing a scarf with a sport coat, or suit, or sweater only would look "quare", as they say in the hills, and that term is used in regard to anything that is outside the norm.
> 
> The Louisville scarf issue obviously originates with a aberrant homophobe who has problems with authority. I will wager that it is not representative of Louisville. Most small Southern Cities have a traditional core that wears trad clothing (where do you think they sell the most GTH pants?), including scarves in winter. My goodness, they sell CAMO scarves at the outdoor stores for the fellows that don't even own a suit and tie! Go to any high school football stadium in the southeast on a chilly Friday night in November, there are scarves galore! I rest my case.
> 
> The simple rule is, buy a scarf, wear it when you need it, and shun bigots.


Seems I am not the only Southerner that went to Cornell around here. Here is an interesting article on the owner of Irv Lewis's Mens Shop. 
F


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## Markus

*Now, why isn't this post stickied?*

I keep forgetting. I mean, it is the mother of all posts here, isn't it?

Markus


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## AlanC

Markus said:


> I keep forgetting. I mean, it is the mother of all posts here, isn't it?
> 
> Markus


It's a test of Trad persistence to see if you'll keep it afloat.


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## mcarthur

Foghorn said:


> Seems I am not the only Southerner that went to Cornell around here. Here is an interesting article on the owner of Irv Lewis's Mens Shop.
> F


Foghorn-
The benefits of geographic distributions


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## Tom72

Foghorn said:


> Here is an interesting article on the owner of Irv Lewis's Mens Shop.
> F
> ... 216620&rfi=6


Well, Foghorn, that brought back a blast from the past. I am sorry to hear that the Irv Lewis stores are closed, but it appears that Hal's is still open. I tried to cheer up all my UGA partners with the news that Cornell soundly trounced Princeton, but I fear it was cold comfort to them. Perhaps it was because there were more people passed out in the parking lot at the Georgia vs. Florida game than attended the Cornell vs. Princeton game.


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## Fogey

AlanC said:


> It's a test of Trad persistence to see if you'll keep it afloat.


I'm not even trad and I'm the one who re-floated it. After I did so, it occured to me that if it gets too far down the pike all the posts after the first one may be truncated. That would be an awful loss. Does this still apply to the new forum software?


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## AlanC

JLPWCXIII said:


> I'm not even trad and I'm the one who re-floated it. After I did so, it occured to me that if it gets too far down the pike all the posts after the first one may be truncated. That would be an awful loss. Does this still apply to the new forum software?


With the software upgrade that shouldn't happen anymore.


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## Foghorn

Tom72 said:


> Well, Foghorn, that brought back a blast from the past. I am sorry to hear that the Irv Lewis stores are closed, but it appears that Hal's is still open. I tried to cheer up all my UGA partners with the news that Cornell soundly trounced Princeton, but I fear it was cold comfort to them. Perhaps it was because there were more people passed out in the parking lot at the Georgia vs. Florida game than attended the Cornell vs. Princeton game.


Hal's is not what it used to be, but The TAP ROOM still is!
I know, listened to the game on the satelite radio. Sad thing is, I know the Tiger's Db. The kid was QB & DB winning the state championship last year, playing ironman football. He wanted to go to Vandy- tried to help.
F


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## Spooter

Foghorn said:


> Hal's is not what it used to be, but The TAP ROOM still is!
> I know, listened to the game on the satelite radio. Sad thing is, I know the Tiger's Db. The kid was QB & DB winning the state championship last year, playing ironman football. He wanted to go to Vandy- tried to help.
> F


The Princeton-Penn game must have been heart breaking to some!:icon_smile_big: :devil:


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## SunderLander

A fine thread and the closest I've found to a Trad 'Bible'! 
I like to see the way of life which lies beneath the clothes come showing through so clearly. 
An inspiration!


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## Spooter

SunderLander said:


> A fine thread and the closest I've found to a Trad 'Bible'!
> I like to see the way of life which lies beneath the clothes come showing through so clearly.
> An inspiration!


I do believe that for me this thread:icon_smile_big: rivals the OPH!
Say, where's Harris anyway?


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## shuman

Just my .02, but are we getting away from the very reason we established a Trad forum in the first place? With the acceptance of padded, darted jackets and italian pants, etc. are we homogenizing the look too much? 

I myself do no own any ivy/sack jackets, but I aspire to, and hopefully they will still be available. That is why I have enjoyed this forum so much. Before I had heard the term Trad, I felt comfortable with the look, and this forum has helped me clarify the look. 

Due to recent comments (Coolidge?) and Harris's departure, perhaps we have reason for self reflection. Pull back and dig our heels in?


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## mpcsb

shuman said:


> Just my .02, but are we getting away from the very reason we established a Trad forum in the first place? With the acceptance of padded, darted jackets and italian pants, etc. are we homogenizing the look too much?
> 
> I myself do no own any ivy/sack jackets, but I aspire to, and hopefully they will still be available. That is why I have enjoyed this forum so much. Before I had heard the term Trad, I felt comfortable with the look, and this forum has helped me clarify the look.
> 
> Due to recent comments (Coolidge?) and Harris's departure, perhaps we have reason for self reflection. Pull back and dig our heels in?


Harris departed? He posted yesterday 11-23.


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## Coolidge24

Harris has not departed, just is posting less frequently.

I was unaware that we had accepted Italianate ideals in the trad forum. I certainly haven't. If we have we should probably just scrap it and rejoin the regular forum. What's the point?


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## mcarthur

Coolidge24 said:


> Harris has not departed, just is posting less frequently.
> 
> I was unaware that we had accepted Italianate ideals in the trad forum. I certainly haven't. If we have we should probably just scrap it and rejoin the regular forum. What's the point?


Coolidge-
I totally agree with your comments


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## shuman

mcarthur said:


> Coolidge-
> I totally agree with your comments


My point was that some of the founding members of this forum are no longer posting, or doing so very infrequently, and my thought was that maybe we had strayed too far from the true style.


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## Untilted

Coolidge24 said:


> Harris has not departed, just is posting less frequently.
> 
> I was unaware that we had accepted Italianate ideals in the trad forum. I certainly haven't. If we have we should probably just scrap it and rejoin the regular forum. What's the point?


The thing is: there aren't many hardcore trads on this forum anymore. Lots of members here own pleated trousers and darted jackets, mostly due to the fact that undarted and natural shoulder jackets are hard to find these days. However, almost everyone on this forum has a passion for Alden shoes, big cuffs, oxford shirts, and repp ties. So I'd say our forumites are fairly trads except for dress trousers and jackets.

Honestly, it'll be hard for us to fit in the regular fashion forum, I hate almost every shirt with spread collar. We are still trads at heart. A lot of pictures we post are elegant even though they don't feature ties, such pictures are hard to find on the regular forum. We trads pay too much attention to accessories like watchbands and socks.


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## jrandyv

Although I am personally both trad and not, I value and appreciate this forum. This thread in particular obviously is it's foundation; I've saved it all on my computer. I appreciate the lack of denigration toward those who are not completely trad and at the same time enjoy the clothing stories, regional differences, and experiences of those who post here from all types of trad backgrounds. There's no where else like this forum. It would be good if the earlier posters could return and/or post more frequently and if new members with their histories could also share their experiences. Similar to my appreciation of this forum, I have enjoyed the new British forum which reminds me in some ways of the good postings here. As I said on my first posting on this forum, I value above all the virtue of not taking things too seriously, including clothes, and I believe there have been a few persistent posters here who have focused more on their opinions of other's postings and not primarily on their own stories and experiences;something that I think detracts from the rewards that this forum brings.


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## Coolidge24

Untilted said:


> The thing is: there aren't many hardcore trads on this forum anymore. Lots of members here own pleated trousers and darted jackets, mostly due to the fact that undarted and natural shoulder jackets are hard to find these days. However, almost everyone on this forum has a passion for Alden shoes, big cuffs, oxford shirts, and repp ties. So I'd say our forumites are fairly trads except for dress trousers and jackets.
> 
> Honestly, it'll be hard for us to fit in the regular fashion forum, I hate almost every shirt with spread collar. We are still trads at heart. A lot of pictures we post are elegant even though they don't feature ties, such pictures are hard to find on the regular forum. We trads pay too much attention to accessories like watchbands and socks.


Maybe you should put them up yourself on the regular forum, then.

The whole trad thing is over with anyway...it's been co-opted for whatever purpose by various people to mean what they want it to mean rather than what Harris originally was trying to say it meant. He had it basically as a nice synonym for Ivy League. It's becoming the Ralph Lauren catalog, from clothes to alleged lifestyle.

It's Ivy League again for me. Anything else is too damned Ralph.

I won't stand down.


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## AlanC

Perhaps we could start a Coolidge/Harris forum, although Harris doesn't seem too worked up about anything.


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## xcubbies

Unlike string theory, intergalactic discovery and the miseries of Iraq, Trad as a subject matter may have a saturation point. Indeed, Trad as a concept has its limits since it is pretty much defined by the confines of styles of the past. By definition, there is not much new happening in the World of Trad.

As a member of AAAF I do find that much of the postings are repetitions of earlier discussions. Granted it is worthwhile answering queries from other Trads who have only recently discovered the internet, having abandoned their Underwoods when further repairs were no longer feasible, have just now stumbled onto this Forum. But you can't expect the founding fathers to sustain their enthusiasm indefinitely.


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## Patrick06790

xcubbies said:


> Unlike string theory, intergalactic discovery and the miseries of Iraq, Trad as a subject matter may have a saturation point. Indeed, Trad as a concept has its limits since it is pretty much defined by the confines of styles of the past. By definition, there is not much new happening in the World of Trad.
> 
> As a member of AAAF I do find that much of the postings are repetitions of earlier discussions. Granted it is worthwhile answering queries from other Trads who have only recently discovered the internet, having abandoned their Underwoods when further repairs were no longer feasible, have just now stumbled onto this Forum. But you can't expect the founding fathers to sustain their enthusiasm indefinitely.


If you're going to Botswana maybe you could do an Alexander McCall Smith-like series for us - after all, in those books Mma. Ramotswe refers to herself as a "traditionally built" lady.


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## xcubbies

Patrick06790 said:


> If you're going to Botswana maybe you could do an Alexander McCall Smith-like series for us - after all, in those books Mma. Ramotswe refers to herself as a "traditionally built" lady.


Funny, I haven't been able to penetrate any of AM-C's books. There's another writer, an American, Norman Rush, who locates his novels in Botswana. I'm afraid that any creative juices that I may have had have been worn out of me through the drafting bureaucratic memos. The best that I can muster is the occasional mischevious note here.


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## septa

Coolidge24 said:


> Maybe you should put them up yourself on the regular forum, then.
> 
> The whole trad thing is over with anyway...it's been co-opted for whatever purpose by various people to mean what they want it to mean rather than what Harris originally was trying to say it meant. He had it basically as a nice synonym for Ivy League. It's becoming the Ralph Lauren catalog, from clothes to alleged lifestyle.
> 
> It's Ivy League again for me. Anything else is too damned Ralph.
> 
> I won't stand down.


I feel the same way. I'd say my wardrobe is about 80% Ivy, and I'm happy that way. I have some English shirts and shoes and a few horsey jackets. Traditional and elegant, yes, trad--NO. There is no point in me posting pics asking if they are trad either. Darts and pleats were simply not part of the post-war Ivy look. We have gotten quite far away from the original purpouse of the forum, but I still think it can serve several valuable functions:

1) to introduce new members to Trad and to explain and uphold its basic doctrines:
i) no pleats
ii) no darts
iii) button down, point or club collar shirts
iv) only non-natural fibers that are accepted are the nylon shell of your down vest, or that which is blended into your bean norwegian sweater
v) shoes should be simple and classic penny: loafers, wingtips, captoes, bucs (white and dirty) tassel loafers, and possibly horsebit loafers
vi) cuffs should be 1.75 inches although this can be scaled up or down based on height
vii) jackets should be 3 roll 2 although the undarted 2-button Andover Shop model is also acceptable

I'm sure there are more rules, but basically Trad is Ivy League, J.Press, O'Connel's, Andover Shop, and some of Ben Silver.

2) To debate points within the realm of Trad:
i) how much waist supression is acceptable in a sack jakcet?
ii) How much shoulder padding is acceptable in a sack jacket?
iii) How many buttons on the cuff of the same?
iv) how baggy is too baggy when it comes to pants and shirts?
v) when are those silver engraved buckles to be worn?

Again, I'm sure there are more questions that fall within Trad and do not upset its basic orthodoxy.

3) And I think now that trad has been well defined in many, many threads, the most important role of the forum, to direct members to the highest quality manufacturers of trad merchendise, to alert them to sales, e-bay auctions, and thrift store finds of tradly things, and to offer product reviews of tradly things. 
I came to this site because I wanted to find replacements for the old brooks brothers oxfords I had worn forever. My dad "out-grew" the ones he bought in college quite some time ago, and gave them to me. I took the best care of them as I could, knowing replacements would be hard to find, but eventually they fell apart. I tried many places for new ones with no luck. Nothing was the same. Google directed me here and I discovered Mercer. I probably would have found them eventually, but the pictures and positive feedback of this forum has led me to beleive they are the answer to my original quest. I haven't ordered yet, being thrifty at heart, I cannot buy more shirts until I wear out my current, perfectly servicable, ones. I have also found Quoddy, which replicates L.L. Bean of days past, Russell Moccasin, which seems to offer the perfect alternative to the Weejun, and Central Watch for a reliable and cheap source of grosgrain bands. Things like the sizing on this year's crop of Shaggy Dogs, the fusing or canvassing of various brands of coats and the illustrations of different products, like the Squire's pink shetland are also welcomed by those of us who cant make it to New Haven, D.C., N.Y., Cambridge, Buffalo, or Andover. The collective information sharing can help all of us make better informed purchases of tradly apparel.

V) also the posting of pictures of trad men, old catologues and all of the stuff from Japan, I think that is great. One of my favorite parts of the forum and one of the main reasons I keep checking back.

I hope that the tone of this post is not too preachy, and I hope to strike a middle ground between "trad is dead" and "trad is everywhere". There is some variety in trad, the Ivy league of the 50s and 60s had some variety, from the geeky (highwaters, white socks, short sleeve plaid shirts) to the jockish, (polo shirt, treetorns, and crew cut) to the aesthete (longish hair, poorly tied bow tie, striped shirt, busy tweed jacket), to, dare I say it, the fogey (super heavy wool pants, aran sweater, wrinkled tie, flat cap), to the squire, (tatersall vest, Viyella shirt, motif tie, moleskin pants). Despite these stylistic variations they are held together by an essential casual Americaness--plain front pants, big cuffs, no darts etc. While we may have gone slightly astray, I believe the forum has much life left in it, especially as a sounding board for new purchases and place to review what you have. 
Cheers,


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## shuman

Coolidge24 said:


> Maybe you should put them up yourself on the regular forum, then.
> 
> The whole trad thing is over with anyway...it's been co-opted for whatever purpose by various people to mean what they want it to mean rather than what Harris originally was trying to say it meant. He had it basically as a nice synonym for Ivy League. It's becoming the Ralph Lauren catalog, from clothes to alleged lifestyle.
> 
> It's Ivy League again for me. Anything else is too damned Ralph.
> 
> I won't stand down.


Thats my point exactly. This forum is straying too far from the original ideas.


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## Coolidge24

AlanC said:


> Perhaps we could start a Coolidge/Harris forum, although Harris doesn't seem too worked up about anything.


Perhaps Harris is probably sick of being baited. Not that I want to speak for Harris.

It is a shame to see this thread go to this, but in a perverse way maybe we would be better served to end where we started.

Points:

Repetitive posts-primarily from new members who haven't learned to look at the similar posts bit below (admittedly, it's not the first place I'd look either) nor read the original thread.

Saturation point-as long as we continue to purchase clothing, there will be no saturation point for discussing our purchases. Brooks will always offer a new suit, we will always analyze Press, Andover, Silver, and O'Connell's latest offerings. The saturation point arrives when the individuals who don't want, don't bother to, are too ignorant to, or claim they can't afford to purchase Ivy League style clothing insist on co-opting what is clearly not their style and calling it "Trad" to make themselves happy. Kool-aid must be tasty.

Trolling- has continually diluted ongoing discussions, pushing people off on tangents and making it that more difficult, when newcomers arrive, to re-establish the look.

Ignorance- a lot of the people who knew things are gone. So we've lost many of the good discussion topics from people who knew the classic stores, the classic bars, the classic restaurants, and the classic music through which these clothes have also woven their identities. They go because they are sick of it, because they have sometimes unpleasant demeanors and are banned, or whatnot. That's not the issue, the issue is that it makes no sense to fill in their void by coopting every other style and calling it "Trad". Drop it, it's bunk. Re-coalesce with the main forum and discuss traditional takes on clothing. This forum was created for the Ivy League look because everyone was sick of us. If there are 3 of us left, then maybe there's no point anymore.


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## gtguyzach

I've been a member of the forum for less than a month and I hope I'm not entering during the decline.

I just finished reading this entire thread and there is a wealth of information for a newcomer like myself (actually this is more of a return to what I wore in the early middle school/high school years when what I wore was a continuation of my elementary school uniform before I was corrupted by the later high school years and college). However, throughout that wealth of information there still seems to be a lot of disagreement. Also sometimes information can be difficult to find because it is buried in a 30+ page thread such as this one.

That being said, the search function on the forum is wonderful and my post count is low because I've had most of my initial questions answered by a previous post. Perhaps there needs to be a basic FAQ or "Intro Course" for those like myself but who might not be so adapt at searching.

There is also the subject of personal taste and how that can be integrated into the look without harming the trad "value". Obviously this needs to be answered on an individual basis but it opens the doors for a lot of new questions.

I think that Septa's post where he defined his goals for the forum was an excellent start. Perhaps an official set of forum goals or a mission statement would be a good thing to have. Harris' original post is good but I think some thing more specific is needed.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I hope this forum remains viable for a long time to come.


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