# Alden Tassel and AE Grayson



## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Prompted by a post on another thread by our own Doctor Damage (https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=73794), I ask the following question: what are some of the important differences between the Alden Tassel Loafers (Aberdeen Last) and the AE Graysons?
We know they create a similar visual impression. What are the differences in construction and finish? How do they differ in size, shape, and fit?


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

For visual reference: Alden 663 versus AE Grayson.
(click for larger version)

https://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alden663vsaegraysonjf0.jpg

Unfortunately, the Grayson is a B width (I don't know the 664 size but it looks like a D width) and the top view of the 663 is not exactly overhead. But I think it's still a useful comparison.

They certainly look like much different shoes...and yet the same. I imagine they have their particular applications: for example the Grayson with its 360 degree welt would be more suited to heavier pants (like cords) with large cuffs, anyplace were double-soled brogues could be worn. The Alden is a bit trimmer and more 'dressy', but it's worth noting that by European standards both are large, bulky, & heavy shoes. My personal view is that the AE calfskin, especially in black, looks better than the Alden calfskin which is rather pedestrian in appearance. Construction, from what I've seen, is very similar, although the Aldens seem heavier in terms of quantifiable weight.

Personal views, personal observations; take them for what they're worth. I hope we can get some comments from members who own _both_ shoes.

DocD


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Quite frankly, those pictures make me wonder why AE is even still in business.

As far as construction, search for cobblestone's post on AE vs Alden.


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## bjorn240 (Jan 8, 2008)

marlinspike said:


> Quite frankly, those pictures make me wonder why AE is even still in business.


De gustibus non est disputandum, but while I typically prefer Aldens, in this case, I think the AE is preferable in every photo except the head-on, where the higher and shorter vamp of the Alden looks better.


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## A. Clay-More (Dec 5, 2007)

I own both shoes in the same size/width, and in all colors. I have two pairs in front of me now.
The Alden loafer is a slightly heavier, clunkier shoe. The AEs are sleek. 
The top stitching around the edge of the uppers is blunted at the tip on the Aldens, while the stitching on the AEs is more pointed, probably giving the AEs the sleek appearance.
The Aldens have three thin leather strips woven into the sides that are of equal size, while the AEs have 3, but the third is about 1/3 the size of the first two.
The tassels on both the Alden and AE models range from about .50" to .625" in width, though the tassels on the Aldens appear chunkier, almost flattened. On the tassels themselves, the leather sheath surrounding the little "fronds" is shorter on the Alden (.625"), longer on the AEs (.75").
The leather seam at the rear of the shoe is wider on the AEs than it is on the Aldens.
The AEs are a perfect fit, while the Aldens are a tad too big (though I hadn't noticed until I tried on both pairs just now).
Hope this helps.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I know this falls a bit outside the parameters of the OP, I personally feel the AE Saratoga was a superior shoe to the Grayson in terms of styling. Saratogas show up on ebay from time to time in deadstock/new condition.


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## LonelyAreTheBrave (Dec 2, 2006)

*Alden Tassel and AE Grayson Photo*

Excellent comparison photo! I believe Doctor Damage's photo compositions of shoes are more informitive than the catalogs! Thanks!:icon_smile:


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## SpookyTurtle (Nov 4, 2007)

I haven't seen the Aldens in person, but I think the AE is a very nice looking shoe, and heaven forbid, even in black! I just wish I could get a slip on that fit me properly. They are either too big and slip too much, or too tight and hurt my toes. I have diabetes and my toes and feet are very sensitive. If I try on a loafer that gives my toes enough room, I walk out of them. If they fit properly and don't slip, they pinch my toes, but a normal person would have no problem with them. I would love to get a pair of the Graysons in merlot and maybe even black.


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## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

SpookyTurtle said:


> I haven't seen the Aldens in person, but I think the AE is a very nice looking shoe, and heaven forbid, even in black! I just wish I could get a slip on that fit me properly. They are either too big and slip too much, or too tight and hurt my toes. I have diabetes and my toes and feet are very sensitive. If I try on a loafer that gives my toes enough room, I walk out of them. If they fit properly and don't slip, they pinch my toes, but a normal person would have no problem with them. I would love to get a pair of the Graysons in merlot and maybe even black.


I had the same problem with fit with slip-ons. Until I got a pair of Aquillas, they are not anywhere near on a par for quality against the shoes discussed and even though owning a pair I am not a fan of their pointy toe but they will meet your needs for staying on whilst being light and very flexible with soft leather.
Probably heaps cheaper to buy also.
They are the most comfortable (for me) slip ons that I have tried so far.

They are lightly constructed so don't expect long life but maybe they will fit your need.

Mychael


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

A. Clay-More said:


> I own both shoes in the same size/width, and in all colors. I have two pairs in front of me now.
> The Alden loafer is a slightly heavier, clunkier shoe. The AEs are sleek.
> The top stitching around the edge of the uppers is blunted at the tip on the Aldens, while the stitching on the AEs is more pointed, probably giving the AEs the sleek appearance.
> The Aldens have three thin leather strips woven into the sides that are of equal size, while the AEs have 3, but the third is about 1/3 the size of the first two.
> ...


Thanks for the informative post. I think this will be a big help for those Members trying to choose between the Alden Tassel and the AE Grayson.

BTW, welcome to the Forum. Continued happy posting!



AlanC said:


> I know this falls a bit outside the parameters of the OP, I personally feel the AE Saratoga was a superior shoe to the Grayson in terms of styling. Saratogas show up on ebay from time to time in deadstock/new condition.


Very apropos to the conversation, AC, well within the scope of the thread.

The Saratoga is one beautiful tassel!


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

marlinspike said:


> Quite frankly, those pictures make me wonder why AE is even still in business.


AE shoes photograph poorly, Alden less so. In person I find they both look much better and about equivalent. My AE Hanover loafers look quite lame in internet photos but I think they look amazing in my hands and on my feet.

DocD


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

You should also consider your feet and try them on if possible. If you pronate or have curved feet, the AE may give a bit more stable heel due to it being wider. I have the Alden tassel moc, but wish I had the AE. My AE Hinsdales seem to give me a little more comfortable base. I would be comparing apples to oranges in terms of lasts (the Hinsdale could have had a different last than the AE tassle moc).


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

marlinspike said:


> As far as construction, search for cobblestone's post on AE vs Alden.


Here's what cobblestone posted:


cobblestone said:


> ...shoe construction, Alden is far and away a better constructed shoe than AE or JM. They use better materials for out soles, heels, heel bases, upper leather, linings, steel shanks, longer heel counters to maintain shape longer and are cut lower around the inside ankle bone so not to rub. The other two companies are far below Alden. However, so is the price. But for a bit more money, you get much longer life in their shoes.


Not being a shoe repair person I can't support or dispute his statements. Although I find my Aldens to be built like tanks, they also feel like I am wearing wooden blocks on my feet. I will never be able to wear these for walking any further than car-to-office-to-car, a round trip of about 200 ft. I prefer softer shoes.

Of course, as cobblestone aludes the kicker is in the price. Maybe the Alden and AE shouldn't be compared?

DocD


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I was thinking of this post of cobblestone's:

I look at these brands from a different perspective. Let's first dismiss cole haan. No comparison to Alden or AE.

Alden uses much better leather soles, better heels, they attach the heel base better. They use steel shanks, the heel counters are 1 inch longer on the medial side to keep the shape of the heel longer. The upper is cut lower around the inside ankle bone area so it doesn't rub against the ankle. 

Both brands use a 1/8" thick leather insole. Both are good year welted. Both use premium quality leather uppers. Alden Shell Cordovan seems to be of better quality than AE. AE does not use a shank. Both have a "cork footbed" which is a filler between the leather insole and leather outsole.

For Men who pronate or suppinate, or happen to be on the heavier side of 180 pounds, a shoe with a shank will hold up longer.

From a person who takes them apart to repair them, Alden is much harder to break down than AE. 

Both are quality shoe brands but Alden grades out higher for the many reasons above. 

Now, how a last fits one's feet is another determining factor you must consider when making your decision on which brand you prefer.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

I own both, in calf. In identical sizes, the Graysons are narrower in the forefoot, but more comfortable in the heel. True to some warnings on this forum, the Aldens are stiffer initially, but quickly end up feeling better than the Graysons. In fact, the Graysons are due for some recrafting, and I will ask them to stretch the mid-foot area. As for styling, I have a slight preference for the sleekness of the Aldens. Make no mistake, both are wonderful shoes. I just wish I had saved up and gotten them in shell cordovan! Bill


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

marlinspike said:


> I was thinking of this post of cobblestone's:
> 
> I look at these brands from a different perspective. Let's first dismiss cole haan. No comparison to Alden or AE.
> 
> ...


Oops, I didn't see that one! It's more pertinent and as someone said here that the best shoe is the one that fits you.

DocD


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## cglex (Oct 23, 2006)

I have owned both. The Alden makes my feet look fat and stubby and slipped at the heel, the AE does neither. Your feet are probably different. They both appear about equal in construction quality, but I need to wear the AE's another 10 years before I can make the comparison fairly.


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## wolfhound986 (Jun 30, 2007)

For me, the AE Grayson seems to have a wider heel than the Alden tassel and tends to slip more. It also feels slightly more narrow at where the ball of the foot rests. Still wearable. I've found that my all my AEs tend to have a wider heel.

Of course, your mileage may vary, it may just be that my foot does not fit the AE as well as the Alden. The Alden tassel is just more comforatble overall for me.

They're both great looking shoes, it there's room in your collection for both, why not??


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## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

It's like comparing Lincoln to Cadillac. Or BMW to Lexus. It depends on your tastes and what feels comfortable. Both are quality shoes.


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

joeyzaza,
I must disagree. Alden invented the tassel and they execute it perfectly (by definition -- it's their shoe!).

Makers like C&J copy the Alden tassel almost perfectly. I would say C&J actually improves on it. It's called the Cavendish, reincarnated by RLP as the Redway tassel loafer (ca. 2005) and then as the Darlton cordo tassel loafer (but they added a 2x sole to the Darlton). 
As one might expect, C&J's Cavendish (and the RLP Redway), like most English shoes, are far sleeker than their US counterparts. That said, I still don't think the UK trumps Alden on then tassel 100% -- after all, Alden _is_ the original, quintessential in Color 8 shell (model 563).

C&J also offer the Langham, a braided tassel loafer. Never been a huge fan of these, though EG executes the braided tassel best of the lot, I think. https://jlpowellusa.com/product/33-Footwear/164-Edward-Green-Shoes-Belgravia-Shoe.html

Then we get AE -- what is AE doing? Theirs is a far less attractive shoe, even though it looks almost identical to the untrained eye. The short side-lace nearest to the toe box just looks odd. The 360-degree welt looks awkward given the sleekness of the tassel loafer. Other bits of execution are sub-par and sum to a not-so-great shoe.

LE offered dress shoes with man-made (faux leather) soles a few years ago. They were essentially copies of the Alden LHS, tassel, and plain-toe blucher. LE's tassel was MUCH better looking than AE's. Much closer to the Aldens.

Final note: I really think a tassel loafer in the spirit of Alden's 563 needs foxing on the heel. For that reason, I'm partial to BB's incarnation of the 563, and I certainly like the foxing we see on EG's Belgravia.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

I like these, too. I'm still trying to make a run down to Monterrey to pick up a pair:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=639354&postcount=172


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

AlanC said:


> I know this falls a bit outside the parameters of the OP, I personally feel the AE Saratoga was a superior shoe to the Grayson in terms of styling. Saratogas show up on ebay from time to time in deadstock/new condition.


You probably have a point, although to me the Saratoga is a dead ringer for the Church's Royal Tweed tassel loafers. Here's the Saratoga:

DocD


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## TBOWES (Nov 29, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> I was thinking of this post of cobblestone's:
> 
> I look at these brands from a different perspective. Let's first dismiss cole haan. No comparison to Alden or AE.
> 
> ...


For the record all shell cordovan comes from Horween in Chicago - there is currnetly no other source even for C & J in England. So the quality is the same. Only the coloring is different.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

TBOWES said:


> For the record all shell cordovan comes from Horween in Chicago - there is currnetly no other source even for C & J in England. So the quality is the same. Only the coloring is different.


Agreed. Some folks have argued that Alden gets a better grade from Horween, but knowledgable and informed posters have insisted that is not the case; and I believe them.

But I also agree with Cobblestone that overall Alden is better constructed, which explains the slightly higher price point. But in my view these differences are marginal as a practical matter, and for most people last fit and appearance preference should decide


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Well, it's widely known that Alden gets first crack at the cordovan, the question is if this transaltes into better cordovan on the shoes or just more shoes per hide since more of the hide is good quality.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

marlinspike said:


> Well, it's widely known that Alden gets first crack at the cordovan, the question is if this transaltes into better cordovan on the shoes or just more shoes per hide since more of the hide is good quality.


I bet if Alden didn't have the BB contract they might find it harder to get cordovan. That may get them "better" hides, but who knows? They sure as hell ain't gonna tell us.

DocD


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Doctor Damage said:


> I bet if Alden didn't have the BB contract they might find it harder to get cordovan. That may get them "better" hides, but who knows? They sure as hell ain't gonna tell us.
> 
> DocD


I had actually always heard that it was a historical connection between the families, not that Alden does so much cordovan business.


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## SpookyTurtle (Nov 4, 2007)

It would be helpful to know what type of grading process is used by Horween. Is it graded by quality and finish or size or what? Alden having first crack may not have anything to do with quality, it may be quantity first, then whatever they don't take is sold to the other manufacturers. It would be interesting to know as everything seems to be pure speculation.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

SpookyTurtle said:


> It would be helpful to know what type of grading process is used by Horween. Is it graded by quality and finish or size or what? Alden having first crack may not have anything to do with quality, it may be quantity first, then whatever they don't take is sold to the other manufacturers. It would be interesting to know as everything seems to be pure speculation.


I can't find the link right now, but some guy that runs that website that sells those Italian-styled shoes in shell cordovan (with the elusive shell #6) posting something about him buying a bunch of cordovan that was dyed incorrectly and rejected by either Alden or BB. Hence the shell #6. Something like that.

Since cordovan is produced in much, much smaller quanitities than calfskin, I bet there are more "errors" made and thus more variations in colours, etc.

DocD


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## spinlps (Feb 15, 2004)

Doctor Damage said:


> Oops, I didn't see that one! It's more pertinent and as someone said here that the best shoe is the one that fits you.
> 
> DocD


re: cobblestone comments

Keep in mind that Cobblestone in addition to offering excellent show repair, is the largest Alden dealer in the St. Louis area, perhaps in the entire state.

I've purchased Alden's from Cobblestone and have had several pairs serviced by them. Good service on both accounts.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

spinlps said:


> re: cobblestone comments
> 
> Keep in mind that Cobblestone in addition to offering excellent show repair, is the largest Alden dealer in the St. Louis area, perhaps in the entire state.
> 
> I've purchased Alden's from Cobblestone and have had several pairs serviced by them. Good service on both accounts.


True, but he's always said things straight in my experience. He seems to me to be a guy who compares and researches before choosing what to carry, rather than carrying something and then figuring out what he can say is better about it.


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## SpookyTurtle (Nov 4, 2007)

Doctor Damage said:


> Since cordovan is produced in much, much smaller quanitities than calfskin, I bet there are more "errors" made and thus more variations in colours, etc.
> 
> DocD


I would tend to think that since it is made in much smaller quantities, is more expensive, and takes much longer to produce that the quality control would be greater than with calfskin. I don't know if this is the case at all, but it makes more sense to me.

It would be interesting to learn what really goes on with the shell that is sold to the various shoe companies.


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## TBOWES (Nov 29, 2007)

Widely know by who or whom? That's simply not correct. Alden places and order and is subject to current inventory on hand at the time. As is C & J and Allen Edmonds when they order. I know this for a fact.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

The famous website "Snopes" exists precisely because the world is replete with "widely known" facts that are not quite true. Indeed, I seem to recall that this particular widely known fact was emphatically debunked in an earlier thread by someone associated with Horween. Admittedly, my recollection could be wrong.


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## SpookyTurtle (Nov 4, 2007)

A search of snopes.com comes up with nothing about shell cordovan. Here is a link about a manufacturer purchasing shell, but no #8 or black.

Here is some general info from Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordovan

From Horween:
and

Japanese produced:
https://www.shinki-hl.co.jp/enginfo.php

There doesn't seem to be a lot of info available about shell, at least not about who buys what amount and quantity. Most of the information seems to come from various forums and is based on opinion, not fact. It was interesting to learn a bit more about all of this.


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## sia (Apr 27, 2007)

TBOWES said:


> For the record all shell cordovan comes from Horween in Chicago - there is currnetly no other source even for C & J in England. So the quality is the same. Only the coloring is different.


This is, unfortunately, inaccurate. While Horween is the last US-based supplier, and the sole supplier to Alden, Allen-Edmonds, and Crockett & Jones, there are other sources for shell cordovan in Asia, Europe, and South America. The Japanese, for example, make some absolutely beautiful cordovan products and source their shell cordovan locally.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

SpookyTurtle said:


> A search of snopes.com comes up with nothing about shell cordovan. Here is a link about a manufacturer purchasing shell, but no #8 or black.
> 
> Here is some general info from Wikipedia:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordovan
> ...


I apologize for my lack of clarity. I was not meaning to suggest that either Snopes in particular or the Internet in general would shed any light on this question. What I was meaning to suggest, albeit inartfully, is that many things many things that are "widely known" are simply not true. That fact is one reason Snopes is so popular.

My recollection is simply that the assertion that Alden gets superior grade because it gets first dibs has currency, but that this assertion has been disputed in these forae by folks who claim to be close to Horween. I don't claim to know the truth -- my only claim is that the fact that something is widely known shouldn't be confused with the truth. All that said, it is quite possible that marlinspike's implicit assertion is true. I am not intending to start a quarrel -- just sharing my recollection that others have disputed that assertion.

Cheers to all.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Mike Petrik said:


> I apologize for my lack of clarity. I was not meaning to suggest that either Snopes in particular or the Internet in general would shed any light on this question. What I was meaning to suggest, albeit inartfully, is that many things many things that are "widely known" are simply not true. That fact is one reason Snopes is so popular.
> 
> My recollection is simply that the assertion that Alden gets superior grade because it gets first dibs has currency, but that this assertion has been disputed in these forae by folks who claim to be close to Horween. I don't claim to know the truth -- my only claim is that the fact that something is widely known shouldn't be confused with the truth. All that said, it is quite possible that marlinspike's implicit assertion is true. I am not intending to start a quarrel -- just sharing my recollection that others have disputed that assertion.
> 
> Cheers to all.


The only dispute I remember seeing were comments to the effect that getting first crack simply means Alden gets the hides with the least flaws in them so they can make the most shoes per hide (i.e. that it only serves to cut costs per shoe, not to result in better cordovan being on the shoe).


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## SpookyTurtle (Nov 4, 2007)

Mike Petrik said:


> I apologize for my lack of clarity. I was not meaning to suggest that either Snopes in particular or the Internet in general would shed any light on this question. What I was meaning to suggest, albeit inartfully, is that many things many things that are "widely known" are simply not true. That fact is one reason Snopes is so popular.
> 
> My recollection is simply that the assertion that Alden gets superior grade because it gets first dibs has currency, but that this assertion has been disputed in these forae by folks who claim to be close to Horween. I don't claim to know the truth -- my only claim is that the fact that something is widely known shouldn't be confused with the truth. All that said, it is quite possible that marlinspike's implicit assertion is true. I am not intending to start a quarrel -- just sharing my recollection that others have disputed that assertion.
> 
> Cheers to all.


I have no probelm with what you posted and I hope I didn't offend you. I was curious myself and did a bit of searching. There are many myths circulating the internet on every subject and many get repeated as fact. Some people post things as fact when they are merely repeating something that they have heard from someone else and accept it as fact. I did a search to see if any further infromation could be found, but all the claims about who gets what from Horween were on a few of the clothing forums, nothing backed by any facts.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

I also have compared the AE cordovan vs. the Alden and find Alden to be superior in finish. To steal a corporate mantra from a Leica camera executive, "Alden's quality is due not so much for what it makes as for what it discards."

When you have first choice at a commodity, you can absolutely get better quality. Just go to a high-end steakhouse and compare it with your grocer.

That said, both AE and Alden are great shoes.


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## TBOWES (Nov 29, 2007)

There may be someone on a farm somewhere making small amounts of this leather for shoes. What I am talking about is that Horween is the only known supplier capable of filling orders for third party shoe manufactures. There is cordovan leather produced in Spain but again this is small quantities. Horween is the only supplier I know of selling and capable of supplying enough product for the open market.


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

Doctor Damage said:


> I can't find the link right now, but some guy that runs that website that sells those Italian-styled shoes in shell cordovan (with the elusive shell #6) posting something about him buying a bunch of cordovan that was dyed incorrectly and rejected by either Alden or BB. Hence the shell #6. Something like that.
> 
> Since cordovan is produced in much, much smaller quanitities than calfskin, I bet there are more "errors" made and thus more variations in colours, etc.
> 
> DocD


Speaking of things written online that get twisted and become fact months later...

-I am that 'some guy'
-I don't 'run a website', I am the Market Manager and Line Builder for Romano Martegani...we do have a blog
-Our shoes are not 'Italian-styled' per se.....I design most of the shoes destined for this market in my office in Richmond, VA...the factory is in Italy between Milan and Como.
-I don't buy SC that is 'rejected' by anyone, let alone Alden.....and BB does not see shells - only shoes when they are delivered.
-#6 was developed by myself, and Skip approved. When we finalized the details from the samples, he told me a story about how a very similiar color was on the market years ago - I would have been in elementary school - and apparently the color was a mistake but still sold just fine for some years. I answered a question on the blog relating this story, and maybe I did not write clearly, but I don't think I ever said my #6 came as a reject from anywhere......I wanted a color between the #8 that is so popular here, and the #4 that you see more of in Europe....calling it #6 seemed a natural. I could have called it 'Rider's color' and he wouldn't have cared less. As a matter of fact, talking some time ago, I brought this story back up and he seemed to think that I was hearing things and misunderstood his story.....really isn't a big enough deal for me to worry about, so I haven't considered it until reading this post. So, for the record, the current edition of #6 (which is completely sold out at the moment) was done for Rider/Martegani by Horween from scratch, and from a desire to have a color lighter than #8 and darker than #4...simple as that.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

rider said:


> Doctor Damage said:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by Doctor Damage
> ...


1. If you are "that guy", then next time you should have no problems signing your name to your posts.
2. Anything on the internet is on a website. The word "blog" merely describes the content of your website.
3. They may not be Italian styled, but they certainly aren't American styled. Or at least most of them aren't.
4. Okay.
5. Here's a screenshot of the post (below); apparently it's the shell #8 which was the mistake.

DocD


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

rider said:


> Speaking of things written online that get twisted and become fact months later...
> 
> -I am that 'some guy'
> -I don't 'run a website', I am the Market Manager and Line Builder for Romano Martegani...we do have a blog
> ...


Ron, thank you for the above clarification.

Could you possibly post pictures of #4 and #6 so that we could easily identify those colors? I think everyone here would love to see that.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Another nice older AE tassel loafer, the Pembroke.


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