# Deer Season



## Murrah (Mar 28, 2005)

Started this weekend in Texas. Don't know about the rest of the country. Any hunters have any luck?


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

I hope not. It's barbaric.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

I don't begrudge the hunters their venison. However, I grew up in rural New Jersey with the woods in our backyard. Every gun-owning jackass from the cities would invade, shooting at anything that moved. My uncle was nearly offed as he built his son's treehouse in the backyard. (They must have mistaken him for one of those deer that roost in trees.) It was like Gettysburg out there every year. We had to stay out of the woods until the season ended.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

JLPWCXIII said:


> I hope not. It's barbaric.


Unless you are a strict vegan and eschew all products that involve exploitation of animals--leather, dairy, wool, etc., this is not a position that can be maintained with any kind of philosophical and intellectual clarity.

I am an occasional hunter, but not terribly keen one, and some aspects of the sport do make me uneasy. However, as a meat-eater and leather wearer--as the vast majority of us are--I cannot have a moral problem with harvesting abundant, readily renewable, edible wildlife through lawful hunting conducted in a sportsmanlike manner and carried out in accordance with the principles of sound wildlife management. There are literally millions of deer in Texas, BTW.

If I were an animal, I think I would prefer to run wild and free and then be brought down by a hunter's bullet than branded, castrated, penned and fattened and then experience my final moments on earth in the horrors of a slaughterhouse.

Anyway, Murrah, good luck and enjoy your venison.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> Unless you are a strict vegan and eschew all products that involve exploitation of animals--leather, dairy, wool, etc., this is not a position that can be maintained with any kind of philosophical and intellectual clarity.


I am, and do.



> If I were an animal, I think I would prefer to run wild and free and then be brought down by a hunter's bullet than branded, castrated, penned and fattened and then experience my final moments on earth in the horrors of a slaughterhouse.


This position cannot be sustained. Even if you were a deer, you wouldn't have the moral authority to decide the fate of all other deer. There is a third choice aside from shooting them and sending them to the slaughterhouse: live and let live.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> There is a third choice aside from shooting them and sending them to the slaughterhouse: live and let live.


This practice will, in an environment now relatively bereft of natural predators, result in overpopulation and starvation. This isn't terribly humane, either.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

JLPWCXIII said:


> This position cannot be sustained. Even if you were a deer, you wouldn't have the moral authority to decide the fate of all other deer. There is a third choice aside from shooting them and sending them to the slaughterhouse: live and let live.


In some states there is a deer-overpopulation problem. Thinning the herd does prevent deer starvation during the winter. I'd rather not shoot one myself, and I do wish there was a stricter competency requirement for hunters, but in my state we are pretty much overrun with the critters.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> If I were an animal, I think I would prefer to run wild and free and then be brought down by a hunter's bullet than branded, castrated, penned and fattened and then experience my final moments on earth in the horrors of a slaughterhouse.


You got something against marriage?


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> This practice will, in an environment now relatively bereft of natural predators, result in overpopulation and starvation. This isn't terribly humane, either.


This excuse is often trotted out, usually _ex post facto_.



> *Aren't most hunts to limit overpopulation and not truly for recreation?*
> No. Most hunted species are not considered to be overpopulated even by the wildlife agencies that set seasons and bag limits. Black ducks, for instance, face continued legal hunting-even on National Wildlife Refuges-despite the fact that their populations are at or near all-time lows. If hunters claim that they hunt to prevent overpopulation, then they should be prepared to forgo hunting except when it really is necessary to manage overpopulated species. This would mean no hunting of doves, ducks, geese, raccoons, bears, cougars, turkeys, quail, chuckar, pheasants, rabbits, squirrels, and many other species.
> What's more, hunters are usually the first to protest when wolves, coyotes, and other predators move into an area and begin to take over the job of controlling game populations. The State of Alaska, for example, has instituted wolf-control (trapping and shooting) on the grounds that wolf predation may bring caribou populations down to a level that would limit the sport-hunting of caribou. Finally, hunters kill opossums, foxes, ravens, and numerous other plentiful species without the pretension of shooting them so that they do not starve or freeze to death.
> 
> ...


-https://www.hsus.org/wildlife/issues_facing_wildlife/hunting/learn_the_facts_about_hunting.html


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I believe that Murrah was simply interested in discussing this year's hunt with fellow hunters. I don't know that he was interested in a philosophical debate on the topic.

I do not hunt (on account of laziness, not principle), but my father enjoys it immensely. I just got off the phone with him, and he was offering me all the venison I could use from his upcoming hunt(s) (he's clearly optimistic!).

By the way, deer burger is very good in chili, although you need to make sure you drain the grease well.


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## Murrah (Mar 28, 2005)

I was hoping to just discuss this year's hunt, but I suppose that's naive given the nature of this forum. I could probably start a thread on cuddly puppies and balloons and somehow that would piss off JLPWCXIII. 

My father and I each killed a deer over the weekend. I've never been closer with my father than when we're hunting. I suspect that's true for many men in the South. It's an event I look forward to every year.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, it is a somewhat controversial topic.....


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I don't hunt, but I have friends who hunt and enjoy eating the venison.

For vegans, don't plants have rights, too?? (When I think of the cabbages shamelessly beheaded just so I can have coleslaw - - -)


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

Murrah said:


> Started this weekend in Texas. Don't know about the rest of the country. Any hunters have any luck?


Give the deer a rifle or bow, at least make it fair.

Oh, for those that get your deer...can I get some jerky? =)


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

KenR said:


> Well, it is a somewhat controversial topic.....


It's not in Alabama, nor, I suspect, in Texas.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

AlanC said:


> It's not in Alabama, nor, I suspect, in Texas.


Agreed. Nor is it much of an issue with me, other than shooting guys in treehouses.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

My own view is that if you're prepared to eat it, there's no intrinsic harm in being the one to kill it. I save my disapproval for catch-and-release fishermen.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

KenR said:


> Agreed. Nor is it much of an issue with me, other than shooting guys in treehouses.


I would be opposed to the shooting guys in treehouses thing, too.

Serious sportsmen are very strong advocates of gun safety and safety training. My father certainly is. He even teaches gun safety courses.


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## gregp (Aug 11, 2005)

crs said:


> I don't begrudge the hunters their venison. However, I grew up in rural New Jersey with the woods in our backyard. Every gun-owning jackass from the cities would invade, shooting at anything that moved. My uncle was nearly offed as he built his son's treehouse in the backyard. (They must have mistaken him for one of those deer that roost in trees.) It was like Gettysburg out there every year. We had to stay out of the woods until the season ended.


Still true. NJ is not nearly as bad as PA or NY, since rifles are not allowed and no hunting is allowed on Sundays. I stay out and keep my family out of the woods. I enjoy almost anything in the outdoors, including hunting, but the fact is that there are too many yahoos out there that will shoot at anything moving.

Perfect example: a couple of years ago, my father and I were out with a dog for grouse in PA. All of a sudden, we here some very close shotgun blasts right through the trees. Now we had just hunted through there, and I knew the odds of a partridge being there were fairly low. We walked out to the trail and met the guy who had just unloaded 5 shells of number 8 lead shot at a passing flock of geese. Aside from the fact that most everything he did was illegal, the only thing a 8 shot will do to a goose is cause it to suffer and possibly die weeks later from an infection. This is the shot that Cheney shot his friend with at close range, as a point of reference.

My father was also shot through the leg in PA by a rifle bullet when he was young.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

People in my family who don't live around here don't believe it, but every year around this time we sign signs posted with the following language: "City limits--No rifle shooting--Buckshot only."

And this is, mind you, the capital city.


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## Murrah (Mar 28, 2005)

Montpelier is a pretty little town. I didn't know you could hunt in the city limits. I don't think we can do that in Austin.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

gregp said:


> Still true. NJ is not nearly as bad as PA or NY, since rifles are not allowed and no hunting is allowed on Sundays. I stay out and keep my family out of the woods. I enjoy almost anything in the outdoors, including hunting, but the fact is that there are too many yahoos out there that will shoot at anything moving.
> 
> Perfect example: a couple of years ago, my father and I were out with a dog for grouse in PA. All of a sudden, we here some very close shotgun blasts right through the trees. Now we had just hunted through there, and I knew the odds of a partridge being there were fairly low. We walked out to the trail and met the guy who had just unloaded 5 shells of number 8 lead shot at a passing flock of geese. Aside from the fact that most everything he did was illegal, the only thing a 8 shot will do to a goose is cause it to suffer and possibly die weeks later from an infection. This is the shot that Cheney shot his friend with at close range, as a point of reference.
> 
> My father was also shot through the leg in PA by a rifle bullet when he was young.





gregp said:


> My father was also shot through the leg in PA by a rifle bullet when he was young.


In order to get a pheasant hunting license in Iowa a couple years back, I had to take a hunter safety education class (I was easily the oldest guy there). I think it ran three nights - I think nearly every state requires it. I was able to take the course in Georgia and give them proof of attendance in Iowa to get the license (you did have to pass a test as well - not real tough, but still...).

In any case, they had a guy come and speak to us about hunting safety - he had served jail time for negligently killing another hunter and one of the conditions to his parole was to participate in these classes. Not a great speaker, but I can tell you it was VERY sobering to hear from someone who saw a flash of white and foolishly fired at it before really ascertaining what it was (it was a white T shirt of another hunter who opened his jacket to cool off - he shot him through the chest).

That guy still haunts me . . . a moment of rashness/stupidity and you've wrecked multiple lives....

I hate to think of all the times I went trap shooting while drinking with my fraternity brothers. Nothing ever happened - very stupid nevertheless.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> JLibourel said:
> 
> 
> > Unless you are a strict vegan and eschew all products that involve exploitation of animals--leather, dairy, wool, etc., this is not a position that can be maintained with any kind of philosophical and intellectual clarity.
> ...


Animals, cute cuddly ones at that, are certainly torn to shreds for every field that is plowed. This argument of morality or ethics being tied to veganism always breaks down to a pretty weak argument based on utility in a Singeresque style. I find it hard to believe one can lead a modern life and not use electricity that was generated at the cost of animals, drive a vehicle where the materials and fuel were not gathered at the cost of animals (not to mention road kills), and countless other items in every day life. I just have never bought into "ethical vegetarianism" and its derivatives.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Murrah said:


> Started this weekend in Texas. Don't know about the rest of the country. Any hunters have any luck?


I'm not a deer hunter, but my father in law and my cousin both got does this past weekend. I hunt ducks, geese, pheasant and quail. I do enjoy venison though.

Alan, deer chili is very good. My grandpa also made deer burger spaghetti. He was always looking for creative ways to use his deer meat.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

I was raised in Alabama. I shot my own guns from the age of five. I spent many days in the woods hunting until I reached the age of about 18. After that my primary interest was in shooting paper.

Luckily, (I guess) I never killed anyone, never so much as nicked a single human (that I am aware of). Likewise, I was neither killed nor wounded (of this I am fairly certain).

Now I have been nearly struck (and, likely, severely wounded) by a golf ball while on the links, but that is for another thread.

I have no issue with legal hunting or hunters. Just eat what you kill (or give it to someone who will eat it), please. Venison serves as a pretty tasty (and lean) ground beef substitute.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Animals, cute cuddly ones at that, are certainly torn to shreds for every field that is plowed. This argument of morality or ethics being tied to veganism always breaks down to a pretty weak argument based on utility in a Singeresque style. I find it hard to believe one can lead a modern life and not use electricity that was generated at the cost of animals, drive a vehicle where the materials and fuel were not gathered at the cost of animals (not to mention road kills), and countless other items in every day life. I just have never bought into "ethical vegetarianism" and its derivatives.


That's why I patronise small-scale, organic farmers. Carnivorous diets cause much more land to be plowed, and overall cause humans to have a vastly larger ecological footprint:



> Animals fed on grain and those which rely on grazing need more water than grain crops [1]. According to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain. . In tracking food animal production from the feed through to the dinner table, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from a 4:1 energy input to protein output ratio up to 54:1. [3


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_vegetarianism#endnote_cornell1997



> A study by Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin, assistant professors of geophysics at the University of Chicago, compares the CO2 production resulting from various human diets. They find that a person switching from the typical American diet to a vegan diet would, on average, reduce CO2 production significantly more than switching to a hybrid vehicle. They go on to recommend a vegan diet for this reason, as well as the potentially adverse health effects of dietary animal fats and proteins.[26] They go on to support their claims by referencing various studies linking animal fats to cardiovascular diseases and animal proteins to cancer.


And if you really think that shooting a sentient animal for sport is on the same moral level as eating a banana, then you're even more misguided than I had previously imagined.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> That's why I patronise small-scale, organic farmers. Carnivorous diets cause much more land to be plowed, and overall cause humans to have a vastly larger ecological footprint:
> 
> *And if you really think that shooting a sentient animal for sport is on the same moral level as eating a banana, then you're even more misguided than I had previously imagined.*


Thought I was on ignore? However, I never made such a claim. You have yet to dispute my claim or even really address it.

Regards


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Thought I was on ignore? However, I never made such a claim. You have yet to dispute my claim or even really address it.
> 
> Regards


I removed you from 'time-out' yesterday, on a probationary basis.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I think I'll be going with a friend next weekend. I don't consider myself a deer hunter but I go about once a year for a few hours. Even if I go three or four times, all total it would be less than 24 hours of hunting.

Last year there were over 325 deer killed by motor vehicle in a nearby city.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> I removed you from 'time-out' yesterday, on a probationary basis.


Please, if removing this "time out" just leads to _ad homs_ this:



JLPWCXIII said:


> ....you're even more misguided than I had previously imagined


just put me back on a permanent basis.

I notice you have yet to actually argue against my statement.

Cheers


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> just put me back on a permanent basis.


As you wish.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> As you wish.


Yes, much easier than actually answering my challenge, is it not?

Regards


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> That's why I patronise small-scale, organic farmers. Carnivorous diets cause much more land to be plowed, and overall cause humans to have a vastly larger ecological footprint:


Of course you do.

You must get vertigo from looking down at the rest of us so often.

Dope.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

fenway said:


> Of course you do.
> 
> You must get vertigo from looking down at the rest of us so often.
> 
> Dope.


Having guilt pangs from devouring other sentient creatures, are you?

'Truely man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. We live by the death of others: we are burial places! I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men. '

-Leonardo da Vinci.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Hitler was a vegetarian.

I WIN!!!!!!

Sorry, had to be said.


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## Tom Bell-Drier (Mar 1, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Hitler was a vegetarian.
> 
> I WIN!!!!!!
> 
> Sorry, had to be said.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Tom Bell-Drier said:


>


Hitler also liked to wear clothes.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

I just ate a chicken for supper. She was very tasty.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

JLPWCXIII said:


> I removed you from 'time-out' yesterday, on a probationary basis.


For a crybaby treehugger you sure have no problem treating other human beings like ineffective little children. State your opinion and discuss your position like a man/adult. Your arrogance is appaling.

MrR


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

MrRogers said:


> For a crybaby treehugger you sure have no problem treating other human beings like ineffective little children. State your opinion and discuss your position like a man/adult. Your arrogance is appaling.
> 
> MrR


You see, there in lies the secret. How could you not be arrogant when in your world view, every act of your life shows your moral superiority to everyone else? Completely self-reinforcing and 100% bullet proof to criticism.


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## Jaguar (Feb 12, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> I am, and do.


From my position as a hunter -- mainly upland game, and moreso as competitive marksman, if JLP is and does, that is a quite valid philosophical position and my hat's off to him for his commitment. I wish that such a level of commitment was more common.

Regards,
Jaguar


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## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

What type of shoes do you wear JLPW?

No leather at all? No suede? NO animal products in your home? Couch? Car seats?

Do you allow your family to use animal products? Would you refuse medicine developed on animals, even if it would save your life?

I find all too often that those who have such strong convictions in discussion are often the first to give them up when it becomes inconvenient to hold them anymore.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

jeansguy said:


> What type of shoes do you wear JLPW?
> 
> No leather at all? No suede? NO animal products in your home? Couch? Car seats?
> 
> ...


No leather or suede. I would use animal-derivative medication only as a very last resort - and only for a serious condition. Such a scenario is exceedingly unlikely.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

MrRogers said:


> For a crybaby treehugger you sure have no problem treating other human beings like ineffective little children. State your opinion and discuss your position like a man/adult. Your arrogance is appaling.
> 
> MrR


Ha! Well you surely don't seem to be one to give lessons on etiquette.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Jaguar said:


> From my position as a hunter -- mainly upland game, and moreso as competitive marksman, if JLP is and does, that is a quite valid philosophical position and my hat's off to him for his commitment. I wish that such a level of commitment was more common.
> 
> Regards,
> Jaguar


Thank-you, Jaguar. We all have our pet causes, this just happens to be one of mine.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

I enjoy shooting guns, .44 and .357 magnum primarily, since I grew up watching too much Dirty Harry.

I just don't get a kick out of shooting defenceless animals. I mean, really: Where's the challenge in that?

Maybe it's about increasing the heft of the "ball satchel," as Borat might say.


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## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

Watching My Cousin Vinny on tv tonight. 
This clip about hunting is hilarious.

Hunting for food is fine. Venison is quite tasty.
Providing meat to homeless shelters, food banks etc etc is also a good thing.
Thousands of Americans out there struggling to put food on their tables.

Hunting for sport...or kill for the sake of killing is a whole different matter.
Barbaric!!

Anyway, have a little fun listening to this clip. 
Somehow I don't think Murrah meant for this thread to be controversial.

Cheers


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## MichaelS (Nov 14, 2005)

Although with the influx of non-Vermonters coming into the state, this is changing, but Deer Season (capitalized on purpose) is an honored tradition here in Vermont. When planning any construction project, you have to plan around deer season because on the starting day, you will still have 50-75% of your male (generally, but not completely, lots of women hunters now) staff out in the woods.

The signs around Montpelier do say no rifles allowed in city limits although I have yet to see someone stalking around the Capitol building with a shotgun and red-checked Johnson Woolen Mills hunting jacket. I have however seen a hunter walking down the main street of Montpelier early in the morning with a rifle on his shoulder and a hand gun strapped to his waist go into the “Country Store” to buy something and no one even blinking an eye. Vermont is the only place where I have ever seen anyone hitch-hiking with a rifle and being picked up! (This actually makes sense because if you track a deer across a mountain and it is getting dark, it is a lot easier to get back home or to your car by hitch-hiking around the mountain.).

I gave up deer hunting because I am no good at it, but I would prefer to eat organic wild game than store bought, hormone and antibiotic infused, slaughter-house meat. I see no moral issues against hunting (except if you hunt for the trophy and throw away the meat, but that is my personal prejudice). Animals kill each other for food all the time. We are animals too. Are we different? Why not hunt when there are plenty of animals and the hunting is controlled such that the population stays healthy and there is no adverse environmental impact?

I still try the Moose lottery every year but still with no luck. If you get a moose in your freezer, you are set for a couple of years.

mmmmm. Moose meat


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

JLPWCXIII said:


> I hope not. It's barbaric.


As long as one consumes the game they harvest, there is nothing barbaric about it! It is simply a part of the natural order of things! I would agree that it is unconscionable to harvest game and then allow it to go to waste!


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## kabert (Feb 6, 2004)

Does shooting deer at night with a spotlight from the second floor window of my in-laws count as hunting? That was a few years back. Illegal and inhumane perhaps though, but they live on a remote hilltop in the countryside north of NYC, so no one was going to complain. We went out an hour or so before Christmas Eve dinner to skin it and, shortly before dinner, came inside with big slabs of steaming meat to wash off in the pantry sink and to wash the blood off our hands. The ladies were appalled, but in an amused sort of way. The jerky my father in law made from it, in multiple flavors, was delicious. Thin strips of venison is great in fajitas too. I'm less impressed eating it as steak - I'd rather have beef-steak.

I've never hunted myself, but I don't have a problem with it generally. I grew up hearing stories about my grandfather hunting on a regular basis (not to mention the 5 or 6 deer heads on the wall in his den); plus, my mother is a fantastic shot and can shoot skeet with the best of 'em. Thus, I think one's feelings on the subject depend somewhat on whether hunting/shooting has been a part of your life.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> As long as one consumes the game they harvest, there is nothing barbaric about it! It is simply a part of the natural order of things! I would agree that it is unconscionable to harvest game and then allow it to go to waste!


Is there anything wrong with shooting a mentally-handicapped person as long as you eat him?

Of course it's wrong. Just because you think you've hit a higher jackpot among sentient beings on the evolutionary scale does not justify your killing and eating 'lower' animal species. If that were true, what, pray tell, would morally restrain a member of MENSA from eating you? What sort of reasoning would you apply in your defence in such a scenario?


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

JLPWCXIII said:


> If that were true, what, pray tell, would morally restrain a member of MENSA from eating you? What sort of reasoning would you apply in your defence in such a scenario?


actually, I think that would be a fair scenario - you should be allowed to kill and eat anything with 30 IQ points less than you.

I have no problem with hunting - I would hunt, if I knew anybody who hunted that I would trust to go out in the woods with with a gun. I am much more concerned with all the yahoos who are dangerous with their firearms.


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## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

> live and let live.


They are going to die one way or another, usually in front of a car. There is a serious overpopulation issue in a lot of urban areas. I hit a deer two years ago on the 101 freeway, 5 lanes mind you, about a mile South of the SF airport. Caused 6K in damage to my car. That was the first time I've ever hit one, though I have had many close calls. Every town I've lived in, (all in CA) has been overrun with deer, and they are a real nuisance.

That being said, I'm not much of a deer hunter, too much work. I accidentally scheduled this year's camping/fly fishing/riding/shooting etc. trip with my cousins on the first day of deer season, that was interesting! Had to wear a lot of orange.


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## Tom Bell-Drier (Mar 1, 2006)

A Harris said:


> They are going to die one way or another, usually in front of a car. There is a serious overpopulation issue in a lot of urban areas. I hit a deer two years ago on the 101 freeway, 5 lanes mind you, about a mile South of the SF airport. Caused 6K in damage to my car. That was the first time I've ever hit one, though I have had many close calls. Every town I've lived in, (all in CA) has been overrun with deer, and they are a real nuisance.
> 
> That being said, I'm not much of a deer hunter, too much work. I accidentally scheduled this year's camping/fly fishing/riding/shooting etc. trip with my cousins on the first day of deer season, that was interesting! Had to wear a lot of orange.


as an intresting point would a trad deerhunter consider a 3 button roll 2 Sack suit in orange


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I wonder what our good friend JLP would do if he developed intestinal worms or possibly a liver fluke? Me thinks suddenly he would be an animal killer. Me also thinks he is merely trolling people at this point.

Regards


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

JLPWCXIII said:


> Is there anything wrong with shooting a mentally-handicapped person as long as you eat him?
> 
> Of course it's wrong. Just because you think you've hit a higher jackpot among sentient beings on the evolutionary scale does not justify your killing and eating 'lower' animal species. If that were true, what, pray tell, would morally restrain a member of MENSA from eating you? What sort of reasoning would you apply in your defence in such a scenario?


This same arguement is so tired and incorrect. The poster made no reference to killing another HUMAN BEING and eating him; you did.

MrR

(**Awaiting page long quote from www.savethesquirrels.com in response)


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Deer hunting is subject to excess no less than soccer hooligans in the U.K. practising G.K. Chesterton's highest form of vegetarianism. My ancient post about my Kodiak Bear hunt gave me insites later in college reading about hunter-gatherers other classmates could never appreciate. It's part of our 'race consciousness' if not some squiggly bit of DNA. A little experience in it explains lots of other behaviors mutual grooming for lice never will.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> As long as one consumes the game they harvest, there is nothing barbaric about it! It is simply a part of the natural order of things! I would agree that it is unconscionable to harvest game and then allow it to go to waste!





JLPWCXIII said:


> Is there anything wrong with shooting a mentally-handicapped person as long as you eat him?
> 
> Of course it's wrong. Just because you think you've hit a higher jackpot among sentient beings on the evolutionary scale does not justify your killing and eating 'lower' animal species. If that were true, what, pray tell, would morally restrain a member of MENSA from eating you? What sort of reasoning would you apply in your defence in such a scenario?


Been there, done that...with a few exceptions! The hunted were not mentally deficient and the hunters were not members of MENSA. It's called warfare and I must admit, your "prey" shooting back at you does ramp up the pucker factor a notch or two. However, the realization that if they killed me, they in all probability would not eat me, provided some scant sense of comfort to me.

PS: To veterans and other reasonable forumites, I appologize if this post appears to trivialize sacrifices made on the field of combat. It is offered solely to illustrate the ridiculuos nature of JLPWCXIII's illustrations.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

A Harris said:


> They are going to die one way or another, usually in front of a car. There is a serious overpopulation issue in a lot of urban areas.


I agree...a serious overpopulation problem...of human beings.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> Been there, done that...with a few exceptions! The hunted were not mentally deficient and the hunters were not members of MENSA. It's called warfare and I must admit, your "prey" shooting back at you does ramp up the pucker factor a notch or two. However, the realization that if they killed me, they in all probability would not eat me, provided some scant sense of comfort to me.


Before you botch this concept again, I recommend reading this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

You can't be serious. You must be trolling.


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## MichaelS (Nov 14, 2005)

Fogey said:


> Is there anything wrong with shooting a mentally-handicapped person as long as you eat him?
> 
> Of course it's wrong. Just because you think you've hit a higher jackpot among sentient beings on the evolutionary scale does not justify your killing and eating 'lower' animal species. If that were true, what, pray tell, would morally restrain a member of MENSA from eating you? What sort of reasoning would you apply in your defence in such a scenario?


I am still not reading any justification for your feelings against hunting (other than you do not like it which is fine but does not tell me why I should not hunt). Your above argument is really meaningless unless you think then that carnivorous animals should not be allowed to hunt. I would argue that a fox is a bit higher on the evolutionary scale (or at least bigger) than a mouse. Should then the fox not be allowed to hunt? Why are we different?

Please answer the question: What is wrong with killing a wild animal for food (assuming it will not make the animal extinct etc which is pretty well controlled today)? Animals other than people kill all the time. Why is it wrong for people to kill for food? Just because you do not like it or think it is cruel (however watch some wolves bring down an elk and start eating it while it is still alive and still call a high powered rifle bullet cruel), why should I think it is cruel?

Please give a valid reason why it is wrong to kill your food (and do go down the higher evolutionary road as I would really argue who is higher on the evolutionary ladder or whether or not it is a ladder at all).


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Concordia said:


> My own view is that if you're prepared to eat it, there's no intrinsic harm in being the one to kill it. I save my disapproval for catch-and-release fishermen.


Man, what did we do?


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

Fogey said:


> No leather or suede. I would use animal-derivative medication only as a very last resort - and only for a serious condition. Such a scenario is exceedingly unlikely.


Achoo! Sorry, Im allergic to BS......


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Fogey said:


> Is there anything wrong with shooting a mentally-handicapped person as long as you eat him?
> 
> Of course it's wrong. Just because you think you've hit a higher jackpot among sentient beings on the evolutionary scale does not justify your killing and eating 'lower' animal species. If that were true, what, pray tell, would morally restrain a member of MENSA from eating you? What sort of reasoning would you apply in your defence in such a scenario?


Frankly, my sympathies and those of most of my friends (many of them highly educated, high IQ people) would be more on the side of anybody or anything eating MENSA members! A terminally dorky organization!


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

NewYorkBuck said:


> Achoo! Sorry, Im allergic to BS......


Agreed.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

When this thread was first started, all Murrah wanted to do was to discuss his hunting experiences with other hunters out there, not an invitation for vegans to come and rip his guts out.  Frankly, for all that yap about cruelty to animals, have you vegans ever thought for a second how you treated Murrah here? ic12337: I hope you don’t have pets ‘cause you vegans would probably starve them to death by feeding them lettuces, now that’s animal abuse! 

If hunting disgust you so much, why don’t you vegans go ahead and start a new thread just to bash hunters (adhering to the AAAC forum rules) instead of jumping here and doing it on his thread.  Further, vegans are hotbeds for food scientists, trying to find ways to supplement your Vitamin B deficiency. Things like ‘I can’t believe it’s not butter!’ Good Grief! After 10 years, it’s found out to be worst than butter and full of transfat! :icon_pale: 

Hunting may disgust you, but it will never go away. Vegans should accept it. Further, I believe that it’s in the American constitution that every American has ‘The Right to Keep and Bear Arms’. :icon_cheers: As hunting is a proud tradition in Europe, all young adults, boys and girls alike, are taught to handle a rifle at a young age. Hey, we even have a public holiday to celebrate this wonderful tradition for young adults, it’s called ‘Shooting Day’ :icon_cheers: it’s one of my favorite holidays. The young ones get together with the elders and there are many important lessons to learn e.g. not to lose your head ‘literally’ over inconsequential things! 

We eat what we hunt, when we live in Chicago, we would very often go hunting in the Northern Woods and have donated our deer to the Wisconsin Deer Donation program where venison is given to many families who needed meat on their table. So therefore, hunting is a good sport and should be highly encouraged amongst the young ones. There are many good reasons for hunting, you learned how to dress the deer and you really appreciate what you eat and avoid fake foods like a plague as well as a healthy dose of an understanding of ecology. When the herd gets to be too large, it needs to be culled or otherwise we will have a situation like Australia where they were almost ran over by rabbits and toads!

I understand why some choose to be vegetarians, usually for health reasons. But vegan? It’s laughable!


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Patrick06790 said:


> Man, what did we do?


It's not a really big deal. But my feeling is that if a species is endangered enough that you shouldn't pull it out of the river to eat, why tramp into its habitat, mess with its mind, and then rip its jaw out with a hook? If I liked fishing more, I'd probably find a way to rationalize that. But I don't.

I certainly have no campaign out to stigmatize this practice; there are a lot of things more worth the worry. But it strikes me as silly when people say "I only do catch and release" as if that marked them for responsible sportsmen.


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## Murrah (Mar 28, 2005)

"all Murray wanted to do"

Murrah, not Murray. Thank you for your post, though. A civil discussion with this group is impossible.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Concordia said:


> It's not a really big deal. But my feeling is that if a species is endangered enough that you shouldn't pull it out of the river to eat, why tramp into its habitat, mess with its mind, and then rip its jaw out with a hook? If I liked fishing more, I'd probably find a way to rationalize that. But I don't.


That's not what catch-and-release is. If a species is an endangered species, you can't fish for it anyway.

And like the dozens of other fly-fisherman I know, I use single barbless hooks, which slide out of the jaw very easily.

I also use a net that allows me to photograph the fish next to a scale printed on the fabric, which completely eliminates the need for my hand to actually touch the fish. (Human skin can remove the protective mucous-like protective material on a trout's skin, which will cause the fish some problems.)

I've been fly-fishing since age 10, and in 34 years I have witnessed only a handful of acts I consider unsportsmanlike, most by beered-up nitwits with their catch slowly suffocating on metal stringers.



> I certainly have no campaign out to stigmatize this practice; there are a lot of things more worth the worry. But it strikes me as silly when people say "I only do catch and release" as if that marked them for responsible sportsmen.


Does what I describe sound like the actions of a sportsman? It does to me. Maybe I'm rationalizing.

I suggest you save your disdain for the small number of slobs who give the vast majority of responsible hunters and anglers a bad name.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

You are correct and I did overstate my position initially. Thoughtlessly.

So while I continue to find game hunting or fishing intrinsically less silly than the pure sport kind, I will not malign all practitioners of the latter pursuit.

There are bigger fish to fry out there.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Concordia said:


> You are correct and I did overstate my position initially. Thoughtlessly.
> 
> So while I continue to find game hunting or fishing intrinsically less silly than the pure sport kind, I will not malign all practitioners of the latter pursuit.
> 
> There are bigger fish to fry out there.


Thank you sir.

And occasionally I keep a couple of them and do just that - rolled in breadcrumbs and cooked in bacon fat. It is a treat.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Murrah said:


> "all Murray wanted to do"
> 
> Murrah, not Murray. Thank you for your post, though. A civil discussion with this group is impossible.


Corrected :icon_smile_wink:

I can show you a couple of threads in the Northern parts if you like, but give me a moment. It's late here, just got back from my parents and had 1 too many a drink 

Not true about the Norths not hunting ... lots of our friends hunt, bow and arrow as well ... keep you in tune ... looks like more trouble on the fishing front end ... hahahaha ... my husband is a catch and release .... HAHAHA ... as I'm not a fisherman by any stretch of the imagination, I'll let Patrick hammer this one out.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Patrick06790 said:


> Thank you sir.
> 
> And occasionally I keep a couple of them and do just that - rolled in breadcrumbs and cooked in bacon fat. It is a treat.


I'm rolling over with laughter !!!!!


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## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

Patrick06790 said:


> Thank you sir.
> 
> And occasionally I keep a couple of them and do just that - rolled in breadcrumbs and cooked in bacon fat. It is a treat.


mmm....Going trout fishing tomorrow. Definitely will try this.

Cheers


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## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

> I agree...a serious overpopulation problem...of human beings.


Perhaps you should throw yourself in front a herd of stampeding deer then


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

A Harris said:


> Perhaps you should throw yourself in front a herd of stampeding deer then


Ha! You're a riot!

You'll be offered your own sitcom in no time.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Murrah:

I'm going to send you a private message of the forums that you can go to. You will find many kindred spirits there. 

Don't want the vegans to create havoc there, know what I mean. Actually, on 2nd thought, it will be quite funny as they will simply be meat for the hunters and bait for fishes ... hahaha

Give me 5 mins.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Anyone care to post which segment of society kills more deer annually? Anyone? Marijuana growers, Freewheelin Frank and Fat Phineas, the Fabulous Furry Freak Borthers of R.Crumb, darlings of Deadheads and the #1 cash crop in several states. Problem is, deer LOVE eating pot and growers reply, not by stringing perfumed soap as a deterrant like Washington Apple growers, but instead use crossbows, snares, poison bait stations, deadfalls and .22LR ( the poacher's round, silent but eventually fatal) . So, Willie Nelson, President Clinton, Gilligan, MaryAnne--- and the rest all offed Bambi. Hypocrites in the forest! Hypocrites in the forest!


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## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

> deer LOVE eating pot


And I was wondering how the deer that wrecked my car was stupid enough to attempt crossing a 5 lane highway...


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Excuse me? You are mumbling and when you mumble I can't understand a word you are saying......

~Willy Wonka



Kav said:


> Anyone care to post which segment of society kills more deer annually? Anyone? Marijuana growers, Freewheelin Frank and Fat Phineas, the Fabulous Furry Freak Borthers of R.Crumb, darlings of Deadheads and the #1 cash crop in several states. Problem is, deer LOVE eating pot and growers reply, not by stringing perfumed soap as a deterrant like Washington Apple growers, but instead use crossbows, snares, poison bait stations, deadfalls and .22LR ( the poacher's round, silent but eventually fatal) . So, Willie Nelson, President Clinton, Gilligan, MaryAnne--- and the rest all offed Bambi. Hypocrites in the forest! Hypocrites in the forest!


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Guess WHO Fogey just claimed to be his favorite royal ... Zara Philips! Who loves hunting! Maybe too much HEMP for Fogey?

It's HILARIOUS! You guys got to go and take a look!


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