# Allen Edmonds Defect?



## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

I purchased a new pair of AE Bradleys in shell cordovan a few months ago. When these came, I noticed that the throat flared out badly; this seems to be a problem where the heel counter ends. The result is that my heel slips in these shoes. I own several pairs of AE shoes and even have a few pairs in the #1 last, but none fit like these. The shoes have been worn 8-10 times and otherwise, stay in shoe trees. I was hoping that as they break in, they would mold to my feet. Well, they have in the forefoot, but the heel remains a problem. I hate to take back a pair of worn shoes if this is a temporary problem, but neither do I want to keep a pair of shoes that are defective. My question is, has anyone had similar problems with AE shell cordovan shoes and did the shoes eventually correct themselves?


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Sir, send them back with a note explaining your issue. Keep us apprized should you be satisfied or otherwise.
Regards,
rudy


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## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

Allen Edmonds has been very successful this past year. The addition of 160 employees and a 40 percent increase in sales by a company operating during a recessionary period in the highly competitive and shrinking domestic shoe manufacturing business is truly an accomplishment. 

In my opinion, Allen Edmonds has become a casualty of its own success and more diligent quality control measures need to be implemented to deal with the increased volume and new employee inexperience. In the past six months I have purchased 8 pairs of shoes, 3 belts, 2 cedar organizers and 8 shoe trees and have had problems with many of the items I have purchased. 

I have had to exchange 2 black leather basic wide dress belts because of excessive creasing from what I have been told was the result of coming from a "fatty" hide.

I sent back a burgundy basic belt because it was cut one inch too long. Allen Edmonds took this belt back and exchanged it for the more expensive basic wide merlot belt at no extra charge.

I have sent back two pairs of black Park Avenues. One pair because the soles were cut significantly wider leaving anywhere from an eighth to a quarter inch extra sole material compared to the other shoes. The other pair was sent back because of a fit problem with the heel that may be similar to yours.

I have sent back a pair of black McAllisters that I believe should have been factory seconds from the beginning because the leather by the eyelets on the left shoe was not laying flat.

I sent back a pair of Burgundy Waldens because of two problems. There was a knick in the lining of one shoe caused by the plastic shoe shaper the factory had installed, and also because the finishing on the vamp of came off when I applied conditioner cleaner. I suspect the leather surface was contaminated before the finish was applied. In general, I found the Waldens to be unsatisfactory, mostly because of the corrected grain leather. I would gladly pay more for a calfskin Walden at a higher price.

I sent back a belt holder because it was well below the advertized 75% heartwood content. Unfortunately, the replacement belt holder also had a problem. The threads on the anchor portion of the hook were not cleanly tapped, so the hook stripped the wood when screwed in and slowly worked itself loose with use. I used epoxy to glue the hook in place.

I had to touch up the smooth brown leather on a pair of Berkshires with brown polish because raw leather was visible from cutting or scything.

I can find a flaw in every single pair of my shoes (things such as grind marks on the sides of the heel, threads that need to be trimmed, leather that needs to be plucked out because it was not fully punched out, oblong brogue holes, etc.) and realize that this is a feature of hand made shoes. However, I feel that sewing alignment flaws, cutting errors, bad laces and leather quality are something that can be more closely monitored.

Each time, Allen Edmonds customer service has stepped up and taken these products back. Despite all of these problems, I still feel that Allen Edmonds shoes represent good value for money and feel it is important to help keep manufacturing in North America.


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## [email protected] (Jan 9, 2012)

I've just go to chime in on the subject of AE quality assurance and say that right now it is pretty poor. I've purchased a number of AE shoes in the past few months and the results have been nothing short of frustrating. I'd say about 1 out of every 3 pairs had to be sent back due to construction problems that QA did not catch. Stitching on the upper visibly not attached, bulging pieces of leather, threads completely out of the outsole canal, etc etc. The list goes on. These days ordering a pair of AE shoes is like taking a trip to the casino... do you feel lucky? Well, do ya?

I hope it improves.


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

I haven't had bad luck with AE; in fact, this is the first defective pair I've received. I hate the idea of taking back a pair of worn shoes, especially since this was a problem evident from the moment I opened the box, but I had hoped the shoes would form to my feet like other pairs have and the problem would simply go away. I'll return them this week and see what the company says.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
+1 regarding the positive history with AE purchases. While I also have not had to return very many of my AE purchases (including a fair number of seconds purchases), if I had had the experiences outlined by poorboy and I do hold similar beliefs about buying American (whenever possible!), LOL, I think I would be considering becoming an Alden shoe customer at this point! 

I'm sure things will go well with your return, Bandit44. :thumbs-up:


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Interesting. I received my shell Bradleys last week after ordering them in December. Pretty sure mine are doing the same thing as yours. I called the "local" AE store last week to order in a pair of 5th St. boots before they were gone and explained about my Bradleys. She said that it is called bowing and caused by not enough volume in the foot. She said there are ways to fix it by filling up the volume so I am taking them up with me later this week and see what they can do. After looking at yours pretty sure it is the same thing as mine. I have only wore them for 3 hours and even with trees in they do it after wearing them.








Here they are compared to my 3 yr. old shell Leeds which I had just treated with Renovateur. Edit: not sure why but have to click on the picture to view larger image. Most of my AE shoes are on the same last and while there are variations in fit between them, nothing like this. I found by using cross lacing instead of bar lacing I can bring it a lot, but it is still there.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

I have to chime in with my Bradley QC issues! Mine have multiple faults and are going back.

I've seen many many many pictures of AEs with a very similar flaring out. I don't know what causes it, but it's a problem and looks horrible.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> +1 regarding the positive history with AE purchases. While I also have not had to return very many of my AE purchases (including a fair number of seconds purchases), if I had had the experiences outlined by poorboy and I do hold similar beliefs about buying American (whenever possible!), LOL, I think I would be considering becoming an Alden shoe customer at this point!
> 
> I'm sure things will go well with your return, Bandit44. :thumbs-up:


AE may have QC issues right now, but at least they have good CS. Alden, on the other hand, has both QC and CS issues!

Based on my sample size of one shell AE, I'd say I'm more happy with Alden quality.


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## Fisher33 (Feb 27, 2012)

I made an account just to post this. Just purchased AE Park Avenues about 5-6 days ago and have only worn them once so far.

The left shoe has significant creases in the upper leather. The top bows out as you can see in the second picture.


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## Landshark (Jun 17, 2011)

Interesting Fisher, I have a new pair of Park Aves I bought in July and have worn a handful of times and they have the same creasing. 

What's worse, I wore them today for maybe the 5th time and the heel began to separate from the sole! It's in no danger of falling off, but it seperates at least 2mm and feels like I'm walking with gum on my shoe. 

I'm sure once I go to the trouble of sending it to AE they will make it right, but after finally springing for my first nice shoes and not shutting up to the wife about how awesome they are it's a little embarrassing and dissappointing!


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## M Go Crimson (Aug 20, 2011)

This only happens in #5 last shoes for me. I was told by SAs at the AE store in Reston, VA that this bowing/flaring is caused by over-pronation of my foot due to a collapsing arch. That's not even remotely true. I have a normal arch and even a bit of supination when I run. Going up/down in both size and width doesn't help the bowing either. I think I'm forever doomed to bowing in the #5 last.


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## zerostyle (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm not that picky when it comes to shoes, but if I was dishing out that much money for shell, I'd definitely not want to settle for flaws like that.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Thinking this bowing issue through it has to be a measurable metric. As I have several pairs of shoes on the 1-511 last and only my new shell Bradley's have the issue but on the same last I came up with a repeatable measurement. I tied the top eyelets together and then measured the width of the topline at the widest point and same location on all the shoes.Tenths of an inch should suffice for statistic significance in this case. I spread the jaws of the calipers until I could just see the tension on the laces at the top eyelets.










Results were extremely consistent on my AE shoes purchased in the past based on the #1 last: 
Leeds shell&#8230;.&#8230;&#8230;.2.4"
Leeds calf&#8230;&#8230;...&#8230;2.4"
Shelton&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..&#8230;&#8230;2.4" 
Wilbert brown&#8230;.&#8230;2.4"
Wilbert black......2.4"

But the Bradley, in comparison, measures a huge 3.1" across the collar. It is excess material that is causing the bowing, plain and simple. Not foot anatomy or anything else. I was surprised the Shelton being a balmoral measured the same as the others which are bluchers. But they are all very consistent, except for the Bradley which bows badly and are going back. I hope they will build to the previous standard of 2.4" this time.


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## seanm440 (Feb 28, 2008)

I purchased a pair of shell MacNeil's from someone on ebay that displayed the same splaying out being discussed in this thread. Never having purchased AE's before, I assumed that the problem was caused by the previous owner not caring for the shoes properly.

As I have worn the shoes, I've found this splaying not to be an issue ... I really love the shoes. However, I am curious about what AE is actually able to do to correct the problem. If I sent the shoes in to be recrafted, would they be able to tighten the leather so that the splaying / bowing is reduced?


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## AllenEdmondsCEO (Mar 17, 2009)

Greetings -

Sorry, I've been on-the-road a great deal lately and have fallen behind on correspondence. I meant to reply to this thread a couple weeks ago but it slipped through the cracks.

Bulging toplines like in the picture could be caused by two things -- 1) not enough time on the last in production so that the toplines don't take the form as well as they should, or 2) too much time in the box on a shelf or, after purchase, in the closet without shoe trees in the shoes. As you probably know, we put a "heel counter" between the lining and the external calfskin of our dress shoes to protect the shape of the heel. We also put what's called a box-toe in front to keep the toe firm and to hold the shape. 

There isn't anything stiff on the sides of the shoes, however, for comfort reasons, so the only thing to hold the shape around the ankle over the long term is the cord-like binding that we sew around the topline. We extended the time we leave shoes on the last 3 years ago, just for this very issue. However, if the shoes get jossled around in transport and then sit awkwardly for months on a shelf in inventory, the shape can get compromised. As you wear them, the shoes also take the shape of your foot and walking, by nature, makes the toplines bulge out as the foot flexes. If the shoes are not a great fit, the bulging as you walk can be exacerbated. Shoe-trees and a couple of days rest in a shoe rotation, can help return the toplines to the tightened look.

Toplines do get tightened somewhat in the Recrafting process. Putting good shoe trees in the shoes and leaving them there is an at-home step that should help. Polishing the shoes with the shoe trees inside and then leaving them to "settle" could be enhance the rebound.

Some of the shoes bought in outlets stores or on e-Bay preceed me in this job. As I've mentioned in other posts, we take quality assurance extremely seriously at AE and have done a number of things over the past 3 years to take it to a higher level, including extending the time that shoes stay on the last in production. The results are evident in our quality control scores internally, and at our most demanding major wholesale customer, Nordstrom. Our scores in the Nordstrom Quality Center are the best they've ever been now and are at levels that they say are unheard of for shoes. We're proud of that, but we remain relentless in our pursuit of perfection.

Thanks for your interest and thanks for your support of Allen Edmonds!


Best wishes,
Paul


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks for the reply, Paul. All of my shoes are kept in shoe trees, so my Bradleys must have a manufacturing defect. Mine were first quality as well. I've been so busy recently that I haven't had a chance to drive to Charlotte to return the shoes. I should probably do this via mail and get this taken care of.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Thank you for the explanation Paul. I ordered my shell Bradley's in December and had to wait till February until they were made and delivered. StyleForum has similar posts about new AE shoes in both calf and shell bowing so it looks like the issue is still in the manufacturing process.

I returned mine directly to AE and am waiting to hear back about exchanging for a correct pair. I sent an email a bit over a week ago to AE and they said the return department is back logged for approximately 2 weeks. Today starts the 3rd week since they were received at the dock at AE and I have not heard from anyone yet. Hopefully I will hear back soon. I recently purchased the McAllister and discovered the 7 last also fits me very well and am placing an order for the Strand in walnut shell later today, I love that color on my shell Dalton boots.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

I'm probably going to want to kick myself in the ass for responding to this thread. On the other hand some of the issues presented seem to be non issues (at least in my eyes). I also wanted to see if AE had a response and what it would be, while I've learned a few things in life I'm not a shoe manufacturer. I felt Paul and one of the store reps explained the issue pretty well.

As you wear them, the shoes also take the shape of your foot and walking, by nature, makes the toplines bulge out as the foot flexes. If the shoes are not a great fit, the bulging as you walk can be exacerbated.

 She said that it is called bowing and caused by not enough volume in the foot. She said there are ways to fix it by filling up the volume 

While the Leeds and Bradley use the same last they have very different cuts at the top of the shoe. The Leeds go up higher and could (based on the foot) allow one to tie the shoe better onto the foot, minimizing bowing in this area.









The photo above is from earlier in this thread. 
What is interesting on the Leeds, is the deformation of on the top set of shoe lace holes.

While the Leeds factory fresh have all the lace holes in a straight line, you can see movement of the leather from wear.

As AE's are fairly flexible the area in question on the shoe is allowed to bending and flex as you walk, depending on how well the shoe fits something is going to move.

My Alden Cigar shell loafers bow out on the sides as well, shown here, no laces to hole the sides together when the shoe flexes.


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## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

*Replacement shoes*

I received my replacement black Park Avenues and McAllisters. I sent them back the next day. See if you can spot the difference. I think most of you would ask for another pair. Some of you might have even sent the walnut McAllister back because of the broguing.










See if you can spot the problem with the Park Avenue.










Now I'd say half of you would send the Park Avenues back. I sent them back partly because I was sending back the McAllisters, so not much effort was required on my part.

I've received several pairs of shoes that I believe should have been seconds. I'm not an Allen Edmonds hater. Shoemaking is a complicated process, but I do believe based on my experiences in the last 6 months buying shoes, wood products and belts that quality control needs to be reviewed.


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

^I'm waiting for someone to tell me what is wrong with those shoes so I know what to look for next time I order a pair.

Andy B.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Clearly poorboy has a clearer eye and a more discerning sartorial palate than many of us!


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## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

Follow the broguing on the wing of the black shoe and compare it to the merlot and walnut shoe. The toebox is smaller because the shoe was pulled down too far. When I shove a shoe shaper in it, it causes a pimple in the top of the vamp where the tongue is sewn to the vamp.

Allen Edmonds is sewn into the left shoe versus the right shoe.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

What us wrong is that when you put them on, you look like an eight-year old wearing his granddad's wingtips. 

I have one pair of firsts that have this, but when I put them on, it is not so bad. 

I just returned two pairs of seconds for this problem. I can assure you, my edema would have to get a whole lot worse to fill it in.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

mrp said:


> I'm probably going to want to kick myself in the ass for responding to this thread. On the other hand some of the issues presented seem to be non issues (at least in my eyes). As you wear them, the shoes also take the shape of your foot and walking, by nature, makes the toplines bulge out as the foot flexes. If the shoes are not a great fit, the bulging as you walk can be exacerbated.


I would hope you don't regret responding!! Besides you answered a burning question I had about the dark brown shell, walnut shell, and calf shell. Wasn't sure if there was enough color variation between the 3 to purchase all of them but after looking at your picture believe there is, thank you.

The bowing on the Bradley's is well beyond anything I have personally seen before. The Leeds in the picture has 3 years of wear, the Bradley's have less than 15 minutes, yet you can see the bowing. My new McAllister shoes measure 2.1" across while the other shoes on the #1 last ALL measure 2.4". The Bradley's measure 3.1" and that is a full inch extra. Half an inch per side of foot which is a huge difference on any foot.

On another site a gentleman posted a picture of his Park Ave. shoes that bowed badly. A respected poster on that site responded by saying:

This is a perfect demonstration of an ignorant individual who buys a size 12 when he needs a size 9.You sneaker size is NOT your dress shoe size.
Congratulations on winning the Horses Ass Award.

And that to me is how it looks. We all for the most part go to lengths to make sure our shirt sleeve extends an exact amount from the jacket, perfect dimple in the tie, etc. A badly bowing shoe ruins the complete package IMO. This is the first one (and hopefully last) that I have had out of 11 pair of AE shoes.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

ColdIron said:


> I would hope you don't regret responding!! Besides you answered a burning question I had about the dark brown shell, walnut shell, and calf shell. Wasn't sure if there was enough color variation between the 3 to purchase all of them but after looking at your picture believe there is, thank you.
> 
> The bowing on the Bradley's is well beyond anything I have personally seen before. The Leeds in the picture has 3 years of wear, the Bradley's have less than 15 minutes, yet you can see the bowing. My new McAllister shoes measure 2.1" across while the other shoes on the #1 last ALL measure 2.4". The Bradley's measure 3.1" and that is a full inch extra. Half an inch per side of foot which is a huge difference on any foot.
> 
> ...


You are welcome on the color pics.
WE are talking past each other a bit on the bowing. My understanding of the shoe construction is that the top cord is a piece of material that does not stretch, this helps the shoe maintain it's overall shape. If the top cord were sub par or not anchored in place it would allow the leather itself to stretch out of shape. As the leather is bowing out and the line appears to be the same my assumption is the top cord is within spec. The mechanics in this case with the shape of your foot overall and how you walk (not implying anything is off here) is that the shoe bows out in this area as the shoe is a lower cut. The higher the shoe goes on the foot the less chance you will have for this effect (the extremes are a boot and a loafer). As the Leed is higher you don't see the effect. I base my conclusion that the Leeds lace higher from online photos, and scale measurements from the photo provided (measuring from top of heel to the top lace cross point). Based on the photo below, the Bradley would appear to be the lowest cut shoe from those that you have on hand and used for comparison. (Note - I put the photo together from what was available, I could be getting mislead)







While the calipers provide you with a number that shows the bowing, the number doesn't prove that anything is wrong with the shoe. While the last is the same the shoes have different cuts. If you had 33 pairs of Bradley's that you wore and measured and had a mean of 2.4 and an outlier of 3.1 it would mean something.
I agree with that the look is not optimum, however based on what I've seen I can't point at the shoe for being at fault, you could pick up another pair of Bradley's same thing might happen.
What happens if you straighten the bowing out after a days wear (pinch the sides in)? How much room do you have under the tongue to the top of you foot?


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

Let me add some additional information to my situation. I originally ordered a 14B, which I do wear in some AE shoes. When my first pair came in, these shoes did not bow out. They were well made, but swallowed my foot (particularly in the instep). When I exchanged the shoes for a 13B, the shoes fit much better in the instep and were nice and snug in the forefoot, but the heel fit much differently.

While I agree that the Bradley's design contributes to this bowing, I don't believe that this is all due to foot shape. It might be hard to tell in the first couple of shots, but there is a noticeable difference in the two pair that I owned.

Edit to add, also notice the difference in the color of the shoes. The first pair were perfectly finished, the color was much darker, etc. My second pair was lighter in color and had many more "flaws" on the leather. At the time, it wasn't enough for me to send back for cosmetic differences, but I did notice the disparities.

14B Bradley
















13B Bradleys (Notice the gap in the throat. This was not something that developed as I wore the shoes)


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Bandit thanks for the added insight into sizing and what you've tried. The 14 vs 13 pics are very informative. My other thoughts in regards to design and fit are a steel shank reinforced shoe may eliminate this effect to some degree. Being size challenged myself to some degree I'm happy that I found the Strand.

I went back an took a closer look at the 13b, when you write throat are you refering to:
_Throat_
The central part of the vamp just proximal to the toe box. The throat is formed by the seam joining the vamp to the quarter i.e. throatline. The position of the throat line depends on the construction of the shoe, for example a shorter vamp and longer quarters define a lower throat line. This gives a wider lower opening for the foot to enter the shoe. The throat is defined by the connection of the rear edge of the vamp and the front part of the quarter. The location of the throat will vary with the design of the shoe. Because the vamp and quarter panels are often one piece in the athletic shoe, the throat is at the eye stay. This refers to the point where the lacing is attached to the vamp. The throat of the shoe dictates the maximum girth permitted by the shoe. 
https://allaboutshoes-toeslayer.blogspot.com/2009/10/anatomy-of-shoe-according-to-mcphoil.html

While you stated that the shoe fits well across the forefoot,the buckling on the right shoe makes me think they are loose (at least this is what a loose shoe would do on me).


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

mrp said:


> You are welcome on the color pics.
> WE are talking past each other a bit on the bowing. My understanding of the shoe construction is that the top cord is a piece of material that does not stretch, this helps the shoe maintain it's overall shape. If the top cord were sub par or not anchored in place it would allow the leather itself to stretch out of shape. As the leather is bowing out and the line appears to be the same my assumption is the top cord is within spec. The mechanics in this case with the shape of your foot overall and how you walk (not implying anything is off here) is that the shoe bows out in this area as the shoe is a lower cut. The higher the shoe goes on the foot the less chance you will have for this effect (the extremes are a boot and a loafer). As the Leed is higher you don't see the effect. I base my conclusion that the Leeds lace higher from online photos, and scale measurements from the photo provided (measuring from top of heel to the top lace cross point). Based on the photo below, the Bradley would appear to be the lowest cut shoe from those that you have on hand and used for comparison. (Note - I put the photo together from what was available, I could be getting mislead)
> View attachment 4005
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying. Only if I can get a pair which do not bow can I get an accurate measurement of what it should be. But am willing to bet it is within a few tenths of an inch of the others. The only thing that could put a foot in the Bradley's and look correct that I sent back would be an elephant.

Bandit44 did a great job explaining it. In fact I believe ours were likely manufactured at the same time, the pairs that bow that is. We both received them at pretty much the same time and the leather on mine looked very much like his. As another example here is a pair of PA which bow that I lifted from another site-










And a correct pair that does not-









Big difference. If I had just a bit of bowing I could live with it but not to the extent that mine did. Orsini put it perfectly earlier-

"What is wrong is that when you put them on, you look like an eight-year old wearing his granddad's wingtips.
I have one pair of firsts that have this, but when I put them on, it is not so bad.
I just returned two pairs of seconds for this problem. I can assure you, my edema would have to get a whole lot worse to fill it in."


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

@MRP, I don't remember thinking that the instep was too loose when wearing, but you could be right. The shoes are in route to Wisconsin, so I cannot try them on to verify this. On the other hand, since the heels were loose from the bulging, I suppose that this too could cause the vamp to break incorrectly. I don't know enough about shoes to say either definitively.

It will be interesting to hear what Allen Edmonds will say about these. If these are swapped out, I'll be even more curious as to how the new replacement pair will fit my foot. Stay tuned.:smile:


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

ColdIron said:


> Bandit44 did a great job explaining it. In fact I believe ours were likely manufactured at the same time, the pairs that bow that is. We both received them at pretty much the same time and the leather on mine looked very much like his. As another example here is a pair of PA which bow that I lifted from another site-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do understand your pain.
In regards to the 2 pictures.
I have some issues with the first picture, why are the laces so loose? Yes there is a good deal of bowing, on the other hand the shoes look as if they could be pulled together to eliminate the issue to some degree.
The second picture looks to be fine, I'm guessing these are a pair of your shoes?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Bandit44 said:


> @MRP, I don't remember thinking that the instep was too loose when wearing, but you could be right. The shoes are in route to Wisconsin, so I cannot try them on to verify this. On the other hand, since the heels were loose from the bulging, I suppose that this too could cause the vamp to break incorrectly. I don't know enough about shoes to say either definitively.
> 
> It will be interesting to hear what Allen Edmonds will say about these. If these are swapped out, I'll be even more curious as to how the new replacement pair will fit my foot. Stay tuned.:smile:


Bandit, yours definitely had some more issues than just the bowing at the sides, if the heel was coming off this could also lead to a flex issue as the areas of interest are aligned to some degree. BTW I was once a 12B fortunately 30 years later I'm a 12C, Shoes can really be tough to buy for some of us.

@Coldiron, by chance was your heel coming loose? As mentioned to Bandit this is another issue that would lead to the bowing (not previously mentioned - or I could have missed it). The mechanics are if the shoe flexes up at the front of the heel the material on the side will bow out. Without the entire heel anchored the sole of the shoe becomes more flexible, especially on shoe without a steel shank.


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## M Go Crimson (Aug 20, 2011)

AllenEdmondsCEO said:


> 2) too much time in the box on a shelf or, after purchase, in the closet without shoe trees in the shoes. As you probably know, we put a "heel counter" between the lining and the external calfskin of our dress shoes to protect the shape of the heel. We also put what's called a box-toe in front to keep the toe firm and to hold the shape.


Well, time to pull the Park Avenues and McAllisters out for a spin. They've both been on trees, untouched, for nearly a month(March has been filled with loafers so far).


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

poorboy said:


> Follow the broguing on the wing of the black shoe and compare it to the merlot and walnut shoe. The toebox is smaller because the shoe was pulled down too far. When I shove a shoe shaper in it, it causes a pimple in the top of the vamp where the tongue is sewn to the vamp.
> 
> Allen Edmonds is sewn into the left shoe versus the right shoe.


I can somewhat see what you mean on the McAllisters, but I probably would have just taken it as being part of a mostly handmade shoe.

As for the AE logo, I never even realized the logo is always inside the right shoe. I would have to think that the only way to end up with the logo inside of the left shoe would be for the shoe lining to be for a right shoe. Yes, that would concern me. And as I said, I never would have even noticed that if you hadn't pointed it out. Yes, I did go look at all of my AE shoes and the logo is in the right shoe on every pair.

Thank you for posting the photos. I will admit my initial comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I would now agree with you, on the Park Aves at least.

Andy B.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Sorry to sound so huffy, but I hate to write an extra word these days. 

I have Parliament firsts and Sutter seconds that do this topline buldge just a little bit. Once they are on and you are standing normally, you would have to look closely to see any that might remain. And, I had some others that did it too much that I sent back. 

I worked in manufacturing, so I know how much fun it is. But I expect this will be taken care of, and, of course, short of scattering rose peddles in your path, the customer service is not to be improved.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Just received a call from AE about my Bradleys. It was exactly 4 weeks to the day that I sent them back via UPS. She said the shoes were defective and too wide at the mouth and could not be repaired. They are making me a new pair but warned me it could be a month or so as their supplier of Cordovan leather is backed up on all colors. Yesterday I ordered the Strands in walnut shell so they will likely take awhile too then. She also did say all Cordovan shoes are made to order now. And that my new shoes would go to her personally and be measured before they sent them to me.Bravo Zulu to AE.


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## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

andy b. said:


> I can somewhat see what you mean on the McAllisters, but I probably would have just taken it as being part of a mostly handmade shoe.
> 
> As for the AE logo, I never even realized the logo is always inside the right shoe. I would have to think that the only way to end up with the logo inside of the left shoe would be for the shoe lining to be for a right shoe. Yes, that would concern me. And as I said, I never would have even noticed that if you hadn't pointed it out. Yes, I did go look at all of my AE shoes and the logo is in the right shoe on every pair.
> 
> ...


Allen Edmonds informed me that the AE logo in the right shoe is acceptable and would still make the shoe first quality. I received my replacement Park Avenues and McAllisters. So far, no fit or cosmetic problems with the Park Avenues, however the McAllisters they sent me look and fit the same as the pair I sent back. The toe box is still too tight. They are supposed to be the same last as the Park Avenues, so I don't know what's happening.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

ColdIron said:


> Just received a call from AE about my Bradleys. It was exactly 4 weeks to the day that I sent them back via UPS. She said the shoes were defective and too wide at the mouth and could not be repaired. They are making me a new pair but warned me it could be a month or so as their supplier of Cordovan leather is backed up on all colors. Yesterday I ordered the Strands in walnut shell so they will likely take awhile too then. She also did say all Cordovan shoes are made to order now. And that my new shoes would go to her personally and be measured before they sent them to me.Bravo Zulu to AE.


Well I received my replacement Bradley's last night, the first order was placed Dec. 22. The right shoe bows (flares) slightly but I could live with it if I had to. On my walnut shell Strands which I am wearing today the right shoe has a little bit of bowing to it. The left shoe of the Bradley replacement however bows even more than the original pair did. :mad2:

Just got a shipping label emailed to me to return to them. Hope it doesn't take another 3 months for the next pair but starting to wonder about the current run and it is tempting to give up on the Bradley's. But I really do like the shoe itself.


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

Well, you've curbed my excitement slightly. AE informed me that mine are due to be completed this week, so I should have my replacements by next week. Will report on mine once they come in. I must say that I am still very excited to be receiving a new pair, regardless of the wait.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Bandit44 said:


> Well, you've curbed my excitement slightly. AE informed me that mine are due to be completed this week, so I should have my replacements by next week. Will report on mine once they come in. I must say that I am still very excited to be receiving a new pair, regardless of the wait.


I certainly didn't intend to diminish your excitement, I too was excited when they called to tell me they were on their way. Because yours were a different issue than mine I have a feeling that you should be OK. Having them in hand for only a brief period once again reminded me how much of a great looking shoe they are. Which also leads to some of my frustration. My shell Cambridge should be here soon and that should hold me over for awhile. Hopefully you will be wearing and breaking in your Bradley's next week!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Uuuuuuuuuuuuu... The dreaded topline bulge... [affects creepy Peter Lorre type voice]

Almost every pair I have has some of this. I had hoped that by now it was confined to seconds.


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## Luis-F-S (Apr 6, 2009)

Don't know. I own well over 2 dozen AE shoes including the Bradley's in cordovan and I've never sent a pair back other than to have them re-soled. Maybe I'm not as picky because most of mine were bought as seconds or on sale. In any case I've not found "significant" differences in quality between firsts and seconds. Maybe I just don't have unrealistic expectations, or have better things to do than " micro inspect" my shoes.


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## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

Luis-F-S said:


> Don't know. I own well over 2 dozen AE shoes including the Bradley's in cordovan and I've never sent a pair back other than to have them re-soled. Maybe I'm not as picky because most of mine were bought as seconds or on sale. In any case I've not found "significant" differences in quality between firsts and seconds. Maybe I just don't have unrealistic expectations, or have better things to do than " micro inspect" my shoes.


I've had quite a different experience. Even right now, I am walking around in a pair of black McAllisters that has a stitch missing at the very peak of the cap. All were purchased as firsts. I haven't returned this pair because I'm tired of making returns.

Defect










Defect










Defect










Defect


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Luis-F-S said:


> Don't know. I own well over 2 dozen AE shoes including the Bradley's in cordovan and I've never sent a pair back other than to have them re-soled. Maybe I'm not as picky because most of mine were bought as seconds or on sale. In any case I've not found "significant" differences in quality between firsts and seconds. Maybe I just don't have unrealistic expectations, or have better things to do than " micro inspect" my shoes.


Maybe because it is I am retired military and I pay attention to detail. I also have more than 20 pairs of AE shoes but only 3 are seconds from the 2 for $200 sale and I would be hard pressed to find fault with those. But I will not be not seen in public with these:









That is in unfllexed condition with my foot resting. You should see it when I am walking, it flares badly. But then again I am not going to wear them in public. YMMV.


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## Sharpe (Apr 20, 2010)

Cold Iron did you get those from an Allen Edmonds store? If not it might be worth a trip to Minneapolis to visit the store with those. Honestly it might not be the right size or last for you. Looking at how you are lacing them up they do not look like they fit perfect.


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Sharpe said:


> Cold Iron did you get those from an Allen Edmonds store? If not it might be worth a trip to Minneapolis to visit the store with those. Honestly it might not be the right size or last for you. Looking at how you are lacing them up they do not look like they fit perfect.


These are a replacement pair of shell Bradley's where the first pair also bowed badly. Let me repeat what the AE CS said when she called me about those 4 weeks to the day from when they hit the AE dock to be returned. "The shoes are defective, they can not be repaired. We will have to make a new pair for you".

For a bit more than 6 months now AE shell shoes are only MTO, you can not purchase them at the AE store unless they are a floor display model. I have heard some hold overs are around here and there however. Yes I have visited and purchased some shoes from the Minneapolis AE store. Out of the 21 pairs of AE shoes I own the majority are on the #1 last as is the Bradley. They are all 10D. I have come to like the #5 last as much or more lately and they are also all 10D with the exception of the Black Hills which are 9.5D and is common being made with waxy leather.

Couple of months ago on styleforum someone posted a picture of his PA which bowed badly









Uncharacteristically Man of Lint jumped all over him for purchasing shoes without having a clue of knowing how to size correctly. Because he didn't read the thread, he just looked at the picture and jumped to a conclusion. When an AE shoe bows badly it is going to look like it is the wrong size. Doesn't matter bar or cross lace, it is going to look wrong. Let me say again&#8230; "The shoes are defective, they can not be repaired". She did offer to check the stores for floor models and see if she could find me a pair but suggested against it saying when you pay as much as you do for shell you should get a brand new pair without creases and having been worn by other people. I respect that, and AE service to date. I have not given up on AE. Besides there are too many shoes on the 5 last that I don't own yet! :icon_smile:


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

Just want to update everyone that my replacement Bradleys arrived this afternoon. It took about a month longer to make these than initially estimated, but it was worth the wait. The fit is near perfect and the finish is well executed. These are like night and day from the previous pair. Kudos to Allen Edmonds for replacing my defective shoes after I had already worn them.

I'm in shorts and a madras shirt today, but I had to conduct a test drive immediately. Pardon the orange socks.:icon_smile_big:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
LOL....and paraphrasing the late Paul Harvey, "and that's the rest of the story"...and a happy ending, no less!


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## ColdIron (Jun 19, 2009)

Outstanding Bandit! No doubt AE does get it right, the customer service is outstanding. The wait can be long but well worth it to me. Been 6 months for mine and can't wait but sure in the end mine will be as good as yours. Minus the orange socks of course... :icon_smile:

In the mean time Friday evening I took ownership of my burgundy shell Cambridge which should hold me over for awhile. Typical AE quality, except that the Cambridge has gone to Flagship status IMO. What a fantastic shoe:


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## lbv2k (Feb 16, 2010)

ColdIron said:


> View attachment 4584


I am drooling:icon_smile:. Fantastic shoes.


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## Barrow Jacket (Mar 14, 2012)

WOW. Those Cambridges are simply stunning. My next AE purchase was going to be some Merlot McCallister wingtips. But that may be hard knowing this superior model is out there. That color and style is exactly what I want.


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