# "Nice Roll"



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

A thought that often crosses my mind, and sometimes my lips, as I peruse these pages. But, what constitutes a nice collar roll? Here are three recent examples from stalwart posters. All quite different, all, to me, nice rolls. Do you go for a particular roll, or leave it to the sartorial gods?


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

The top two pics in particular seem like good examples of a nice roll, which I think of as an ogee shape, a robust arch, not flat.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Ah, I was looking for _le mot juste_ for the first, "ogee" is it. Cards dubbed the second the "cavernous collar roll." The third, asymetrical, maybe "the sprezz." Clearly, the increasingly frequently seen short point bd allows for no roll whatsoever.


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## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

The top picture is perfect. All three are beautiful rolls, but the first is the Platonic form. 

I don't do anything to mine. Some of my collars roll nicely naturally, and some don't. As my style generally involves letting things be (minimal ironing, etc.), I just let it do what it wants. I try not to be fussy, and periodically my shirts reward me for my non-interference in their affairs.

-k


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

kevinbelt said:


> I try not to be fussy, and periodically my shirts reward me for my non-interference in their affairs.
> 
> -k


Very nice.


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## MidWestTrad (Aug 14, 2010)

Everyday seems to bring a slightly different roll for me. All of those look great.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

I suppose my ideal would be the middle. One of the quirks of the button down shirts are the different rolls which get produced. I find even the same shirt has a different roll on different wearings.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

The middle collar roll is magnificent, but the third, uneven, roll goes with a certain insouciance of this esthetic. No unlike the 3/2 button stance, which, if you think about it, seems almost like a mistake. Although trads here find Italian esthetics anathema, I think the whole attitude is not unlike _sprezzatura_, from the _Official Preppy Handbook_ of the Renaissance, Castiglione's _The Book of the Courtier_, which defines it as "a certain nonchalance, so as to conceal all art and make whatever one does or says appear to be without effort and almost without any thought about it . . ."


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

I think all three of those guys need to learn how to use an iron...

:icon_smile_wink:


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

dks202 said:


> I think all three of those guys need to learn how to use an iron...
> 
> :icon_smile_wink:


There's only so much a photo can show, but I'm afraid I agree. A little time spent at Prof. Flanderian's School of Obsession would do the trick.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Obviously, I like the middle roll since it's me, but I also use the style Patrick is showing in picture one - just depends on the nature of the collar. I like almost any collar roll except the short straight points with no roll - why not just wear a forward point collar?

Ah, and I do go for a particular roll - why leave something as great as a potentially fantastic collar roll to the sartorial gods and their whimsy?


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## zarathustra (Aug 24, 2006)

Cardinals5 said:


> Obviously, I like the middle roll since it's me, but I also use the style Patrick is showing in picture one - just depends on the nature of the collar. I like almost any collar roll except the short straight points with no roll - why not just wear a forward point collar?
> 
> Ah, and I do go for a particular roll - why leave something as great as a potentially fantastic collar roll to the sartorial gods and their whimsy?


Where is that shirt from? I love the roll.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

The one in the middle...no contest for my money. I even asked Card how he produced it on the WAYWT thread and he posted instructions. To me _that_ is the quentissential button down collar roll.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

zarathustra said:


> Where is that shirt from? I love the roll.


Thanks - I don't remember what I wore that day, but I'm 90% certain it's an old Brooks with an unlined collar.


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## joeyb1000 (Feb 24, 2010)

I like #3


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

How dumb am I. I never knew what collar roll meant until this thread.

I had thought the mucho roll references throughout ye forum meant a roll at the _creas_e, and even went so far as to advise someone who had long ago asked how to achieve it to iron the crease flat until you reached the last inch next to the opening, then lift the iron.

Now that I know what it really is, I think it looks universally awful in all three pics. It's as if the collar points are kept from flying up only because they are lashed in place by buttons. Ever seen a coat buttoned so tight, usually only in cartoons, that there are flaring gaps between the buttons? This looks like that. I am surprised that Cards and Rambler like this. They're off my Xmas card list.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

A baffling thread, to me. I thought the whole point of a button-down collar was that it's soft and sport-inspired. The buttons hold hold the tips down and the rest of the collar "moveth where it will," to borrow a phrase. Some shirts will roll predictably one way, some another, and some will be a never-ending source of rollish surprises. The idea of wanting the roll to go a certain way, and trying to work to consistently get that effect on all one's shirts, seems both futile and contrary to the spirit of the thing--hence not a real option.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

I borrowed this from another thread (with thanks to Clay B)...



Now that's a roll, in that it appears that the roll is close to and somewhat forced by the knot of the tie. As opposed to the one shown earlier by Cards that looks like he could keep his smokes beneath it.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Peak and Pine said:


> I borrowed this from another thread (with thanks to Clay B)...
> 
> Now that's a roll, in that it appears that the roll is close to and somewhat forced by the knot of the tie. As opposed to the one shown earlier by Cards that looks like he could keep his smokes beneath it.


Different smokes for different folks I guess. This collar does not look like it will ever move which, I guess, is the point if that is what you want to achieve. I prefer the three in the original picture.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I have experimented with the roll as well as the tie dimple and after considerable study, I've decided to stick with the nonchalant!!


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Today's roll. BB unlined and Viyella for Gant


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

*Mediocre Roll*









Not as good as I would like. The tie is a little thick so you can see it bulge under the collar. Kenneth Gordon pinpoint..


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## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

Cards, am I correct in assuming that part of your process involves wearing your tie fairly high?

-k


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Peak and Pine said:


> I borrowed this from another thread (with thanks to Clay B)...
> 
> Now that's a roll, in that it appears that the roll is close to and somewhat forced by the knot of the tie. As opposed to the one shown earlier by Cards that looks like he could keep his smokes beneath it.


While I like each of the collar rolls pictured in the OP, given my wifes penchant for ironing and her clandestine application of 'some measure' of starch to my shirts, I must confess that Young Clay B's collar, as pictured in the above quote, is probably the closet representation of my own collar roll(s).


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## Ripley (Oct 19, 2010)

Most of my shirts are contemporary Brooks supposed-to-irons, but I still generally get a pretty stellar roll. I don't do much in the way of purposely achieving a good roll (I'm the wash, hang dry, and wear without ironing sort). The one thing I do in regard to the collar is to button the collar button (but not the collar point buttons) while the shirt is hang drying, and I leave it buttoned until I wear the shirt. This trains the collar to stand up making it look better when worn (I do this with my point collar shirts too). It also seems to help with the collar roll. 

Of those in the original post the first is my favorite.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> How dumb am I. I never knew what collar roll meant until this thread.
> 
> I had thought the mucho roll references throughout ye forum meant a roll at the _creas_e, and even went so far as to advise someone who had long ago asked how to achieve it to iron the crease flat until you reached the last inch next to the opening, then lift the iron.
> 
> Now that I know what it really is, I think it looks universally awful in all three pics. It's as if the collar points are kept from flying up only because they are lashed in place by buttons. Ever seen a coat buttoned so tight, usually only in cartoons, that there are flaring gaps between the buttons? This looks like that. I am surprised that Cards and Rambler like this. They're off my Xmas card list.


It'll be a blue xmas, but I guess we'll have to have to suck it up for that: last year's was a doozy. I note that the fateful post 2000 is fast approaching, and with it the photos of yourself, that you have promised to post.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

kevinbelt said:


> Cards, am I correct in assuming that part of your process involves wearing your tie fairly high?
> 
> -k


Yes, as I tighten my tie I pull it horizontally to the ground and then in towards my neck, which gives some arch to the tie coming from the knot and also supports/puts pressure on the collar to effect the kind of roll I like.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't work to get a certain roll to the collar. I just let them do what they want.

Personally, I don't understand the hate towards slightly shorter button down collars. As long as there's some degree of roll it looks fine to me. (However, when you get down to 2.75" or 2.5" it starts to not look good at all.)


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Jovan said:


> I don't work to get a certain roll to the collar. I just let them do what they want.
> 
> Personally, I don't understand the hate towards slightly shorter button down collars. As long as there's some degree of roll it looks fine to me. (However, when you get down to 2.75" or 2.5" it starts to not look good at all.)


I think the problem with the shorter collars is more pronounced when wore with a tie.


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)




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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

The Rambler said:


> I note that the fateful post 2000 is fast approaching, and with it the photos of yourself, that you have promised to post.


I hesitate to bring attention to this, but mosey on over to the last posts in the Tiny House thread and you will see moi. Moi also decided to take the picture down a few hours after it was posted, but since it was reposted a half dozen times by people whom I no longer like, it has to stay. I will post a WAYWN picture on the 2,000th post, even if the turkey-neck filter for Tiny Camera still hasn't arrived.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

nothin' there but the red x, Peaky.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

To borrow from Crocodile Dundee, "Nah, that's not a roll."








[/QUOTE]

"Now _that's_ a roll."


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

The Rambler said:


>


That looks _really_ good, Rambler! Since San Antonio is usually so hot and humid most of the time, I avoid starch (and ironing, sometimes) and let the collars roll as they may.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

^ That's a thrifted Lands End, by the way. Belonged to someone named Montgomery. Cost me a buck.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Probably Montgomery Burns.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> nothin' there but the red x, Peaky.


Pix, Peak...or you didn't happen.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Peak and Pine said:


> How dumb am I. I never knew what collar roll meant until this thread.
> 
> I had thought the mucho roll references throughout ye forum meant a roll at the _creas_e, and even went so far as to advise someone who had long ago asked how to achieve it to iron the crease flat until you reached the last inch next to the opening, then lift the iron.
> 
> Now that I know what it really is, I think it looks universally awful in all three pics. It's as if the collar points are kept from flying up only because they are lashed in place by buttons. Ever seen a coat buttoned so tight, usually only in cartoons, that there are flaring gaps between the buttons? This looks like that. I am surprised that Cards and Rambler like this. They're off my Xmas card list.


Peak...you can check out the roll on John Boehner's Buttondowns for a good example Or rather "Mr. Speaker". I know you are such a fan and may name Tiny House in honor of his shirt collars.


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## ChrisSweet (Sep 18, 2009)

I thought this a pretty decent roll. Then I realised that I need to shave and tie a better knot. :icon_headagainstwal


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

^^^
Great roll! What's the shirt?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Mercer & Sons has the best collar roll I've seen, hands down. Brooks Brothers is a close second, but they could improve it by making the lining thinner or just removing it altogether. I'll admit I haven't seen Sero or Gant shirts in person, however.


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## ChrisSweet (Sep 18, 2009)

Saltydog said:


> ^^^
> Great roll! What's the shirt?


Thanks Saltydog. The shirt is from Marks and Spencer in the UK as its difficult to get my hands on anything American without paying a fortune. However, I'm headed for New York in December - look out Brooks Brothers!


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

The full flair.


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## MidWestTrad (Aug 14, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Mercer & Sons has the best collar roll I've seen, hands down. Brooks Brothers is a close second, but they could improve it by making the lining thinner or just removing it altogether. I'll admit I haven't seen Sero or Gant shirts in person, however.


Just got my first Mercer shirt. An absolutely fabulous fitting shirt and the finest roll of any shirt I own!


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Mercer & Sons has the best collar roll I've seen, hands down. Brooks Brothers is a close second, but they could improve it by making the lining thinner or just removing it altogether. I'll admit I haven't seen Sero or Gant shirts in person, however.


I personally agree about the BB collar, Jovan: the older ones are the best, but then, I like a lazy roll. When I think about it, there are a lot of good ones, back in the day I think Troy Guild was my favorite. I'd like to own a Mercer, never have.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

Today's roll.

J.Press pink pinpoint OCBD bought at the recent J.Press warehouse/sample sale @ $5.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

^^^

An admirable roll indeed--as well as a very well knotted tie.


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## ds23pallas (Aug 22, 2006)

I think it was Saltydog who can name an OCBD's maker at ten paces. Can you identify this one, Salty? Hint: It also has a locker loop on the back.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Whoever makes it, I like it. I assume the button to the side of the pocket is for securing pens? A novel idea.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Salty is indeed a true afficianado, and for an old guy he has an amazing memory, for shirts anyway.This kind of thing is also right in Cards5's wheelhouse. The various shades of pink in ocbd's by various makers is a subject I'd like to know more about, though I suppose the differences are too subtle for internet photos*. The off-center pocket button ought to be a dead giveaway, I've seen it before, but I don't think on Gant, which would otherwise be my wild guess.

* yes, I am bored to the brink of madness this afternoon.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

That shirt has me stumped - its that button on the pocket that has me confused. Gant is probably the most well-known name to have used a locker loop, but Eagle and a number of others had them too so the locker loop hint doesn't help.


Good thread revival - people should post more pics of their collar rolls. I haven't been wearing a tie for a few months so I'm out, but Cecil47 has been showing some good roll lately.


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## cecil47 (Oct 25, 2009)

Cardinals5 said:


> Good thread revival - people should post more pics of their collar rolls. I haven't been wearing a tie for a few months so I'm out, but Cecil47 has been showing some good roll lately.


Thank you, even tho no one likes my tie!


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I like your tie - wouldn't want 50 like that, but one is good.


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## zbix (Dec 12, 2010)

https://img813.imageshack.us/i/rollm.jpg/

Not sure how this will be received. I'm with some of the others though. I make sure the collar doesn't look like garbage, but for the most part I don't fight the shirt. It is what it is. This is an old Eagle shirt, but I have a few LE collars that have this "S" roll to them. It rolls over the tie, but then is very flush until the button.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

It is what it is, is it?:biggrin2: just kidding, everything is what it is, even when it isn't. That's a nice old Eagle shirt, they're not often seen here, but I remember them as in the same class as Brooks, Gant, Hathaway, Troy. And a nice roll. I wonder when Eagle went out of business?


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

I like the "S" roll. Did you just coin that?


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

zbix said:


> https://img813.imageshack.us/i/rollm.jpg/
> 
> Not sure how this will be received. I'm with some of the others though. I make sure the collar doesn't look like garbage, but for the most part I don't fight the shirt. It is what it is. This is an old Eagle shirt, but I have a few LE collars that have this "S" roll to them. It rolls over the tie, but then is very flush until the button.


That looks great, zbix.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> .... I wonder when Eagle went out of business?


In 1991, apparently:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...Eagle-amp-Hathaway-Shirts&p=615631#post615631


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## cecil47 (Oct 25, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> I like your tie - wouldn't want 50 like that, but one is good.


Thank you, I only have one.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks, Kurt. Miss that Jamgood. Source of your intriguing 'signature?'


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> ... Source of your intriguing 'signature?'


That's a paragraph from a novel I am planning never to write! The inspiration is equal parts Brummel, the Windsors, and Fitzgerald.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Mercer & Sons OCBD, first with and then without tie. Clickity for bigger.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Looks good Jovan.


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## Master-Classter (Jan 22, 2009)

Saltydog said:


> The full flair.


 Am I the only one who thinks this looks really unflattering? like everything that's wrong with collar rolls?



zbix said:


> https://img813.imageshack.us/i/rollm.jpg/


 This is more like it! I'm not a big fan of the button down but this is almost nice!

About right...




Stupid (_sorry Vox_)


Everything in Between:


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

The beauty of the buttondown is that it allows for a certain creativity. Each can wear it the way they like best. I often wear mine with a different type roll from day to day. It is the perfect collar. Superior by far to all the rest. The others are just clones of one another.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Cowtown said:


> Looks good Jovan.


 Thanks, it's my favourite by far.

As for amount of roll, I think the wearer's build factors into it somewhat. A Mercer on skinny me may look pretty different on say... Lou Ferrigno or John Goodman.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Jovan said:


> As for amount of roll, I think the wearer's build factors into it somewhat. A Mercer on skinny me may look pretty different on say... Lou Ferrigno or John Goodman.


Absolutely. Other factors no doubt include how tightly the collar fits around the neck, how long the points are, the cut of the collar, the lining or fusible in the collar, the fabric itself, whether starched or not, etc. Some prefer bd, some not, prefer plain, which always comes out the same. A guy who doesn't really like a collar roll, such as M-C, above, is likely to prefer a shorter-pointed more controlled look , more like what is found on plain collared shirts.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

ds23pallas said:


> I think it was Saltydog who can name an OCBD's maker at ten paces. Can you identify this one, Salty? Hint: It also has a locker loop on the back.


I just came across this challenge. Boy, this is a toughie. Normally, I would say Gant since you said it has a locker loop...though Lands' End also continued the locker loop feature on many of their shirts. The collar looks a bit long for a Gant...but I don't recall LE putting a "pencil" button on that type of shirt. That button though...has...me...stumped. I'm gonna stick with Gant--since I seem to vaguely recall them experimenting with buttons on the pocket as a trendy sort of thing at some point. My second choice would be Eagle. However, the brain cells could be badly misfiring. 'Fraid I'll have to call "uncle" on this one. But the suspense is killing me!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

At this point I'll assume it's a trick question and the wearer sewed the button and buttonhole on themselves.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

OK, ds, spill.


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## ds23pallas (Aug 22, 2006)

Jovan said:


> At this point I'll assume it's a trick question and the wearer sewed the button and buttonhole on themselves.


Ha! Except I don't have a clue how to sew. Something I need to learn.



The Rambler said:


> OK, ds, spill.


It's a Royal (that's the name brand) made in Canada. I think they were once owned by Coppley. It's the only one I have and a couple of years ago I went to the same shop to get another and was told that Royal shirt was caput, so who knows.

Fabric feels a bit sturdier than a BB shirt, but the collar is a bit more heavily lined. Gives a good roll though. Overall one of the better OC shirts I have, but a second place finish to the BB version.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

OCBDs made in Canada? I thought you Canadians only wore flannel shirts.

... kidding. I was born in Montreal.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Royal would have been my next choice.:icon_smile_wink:


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