# Law School and the LSAT



## MarkfromMD (Nov 5, 2008)

Hey all, 
I'm taking a practice LSAT in February then the real deal next September. I want to start studying a little now and will hopefully pick up a couple books of logic games and logical reasoning problems this month. 

I'm just wondering if any of you gentlemen (or women) have any tips for prepping for the LSAT. 

Any tips on studying or just general law school discussion would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance,
Mark


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I taught the Stanley H. Kaplan LSAT course for about ten years, and the best advice I can give you is to take it. Start early, and really apply yourself. I can tell you that some of my students showed significant improvements in their scores.

If you are planning now for a test almost a year from now you should be in good shape.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

I used the Princeton Review book, back when online or even computer-based courses were non-existent, and I got a 167. 

And no, I didn't go to law school. I chose another path and now I'm a CPA.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Practice the "games" section. It is significantly harder than it used to be.


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

I feel like the games section is where the most improvement can be made the quickest, but with a year in advance, you should be set. Remember, most schools are taking your highest score now, so don't worry too much about taking it more than once. 

Good luck, I'm at Vanderbilt Law now and loving it. Can't recommend it highly enough.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Your school admission goals also play a big part in it. If you aren't trying to go to a top school, and you don't need an absolute top score, you can make time by throwing away one of the games and doing well on the three that remain. On the other hand, that pretty much means you're not going to a top tier school.

I guess this is more of a test taking than a test prep strategy, and you have plenty of time for that. For now, the more questions, reading passages, and logic games that you see, the better your chances are on test day.


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## MarkfromMD (Nov 5, 2008)

Miket61 said:


> I used the Princeton Review book, back when online or even computer-based courses were non-existent, and I got a 167.
> 
> And no, I didn't go to law school. I chose another path and now I'm a CPA.


Congrats! 167 is a commendable score. I know this sounds like I am a very confused individual but I am actually also working on completing the educational requirements so I can take the CPA exam. I currently work at an accounting firm and hopefully will be able to find somewhere to draft financial statements or do tax returns for a couple of hours a week while attending law school.



jackmccullough said:


> Your school admission goals also play a big part in it. If you aren't trying to go to a top school, and you don't need an absolute top score, you can make time by throwing away one of the games and doing well on the three that remain. On the other hand, that pretty much means you're not going to a top tier school.


I'm hoping to apply to a handful of mid to lower tier 1 schools. I don't have the best grades so while I am trying to pull them up I am largely banking on a great LSAT.


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## nerdykarim (Dec 13, 2005)

I did the self-study thing 2 years ago and found the best books to be the Logic Games Bible and the Logical Reasoning Bible.

Am now a 1L at the University of Georgia. Will be working on a dual JD/MBA.


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## MarkfromMD (Nov 5, 2008)

nerdykarim said:


> I did the self-study thing 2 years ago and found the best books to be the Logic Games Bible and the Logical Reasoning Bible.
> 
> Am now a 1L at the University of Georgia. Will be working on a dual JD/MBA.


Did you have to take both the LSAT and the GMAT?


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## nerdykarim (Dec 13, 2005)

MarkfromMD said:


> Did you have to take both the LSAT and the GMAT?


The GMAT is required to enter the MBA program. At Georgia, you have to apply to both the law school and the business school. The program is designed so that the first year is the first year of law school (where I am now), the second year is the first year of the MBA program, and the third and fourth years are electives from both programs.

Many schools that offer dual degree programs allow you to apply for the MBA program after you start the law program. Although most students follow the "standard" four-year program, I know of a student here who did not apply to business school until her 2L year had started.

If you're interested in such a program, I would recommend contacting the admissions offices of both the law school and the business school of the universities at which you intend to apply.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

Is there any way I can talk you out of law school? I am a 3L at a pretty good mid-Atlantic/northeast law school and there are NO jobs. Last summer lots of firms who take on 10-30 summer associates and who normally make offers to all of them were only making offers to 25%. I am in the top 1/3 of my class and I can't land an offer to save my life. 

Also, law school sucks!!! My school has a top 20 business school on the other end of the campus. I drive by it on my way to and from school. All of the students are out drinking and having a good time 5 days a week. It's a big cocktail party! They are "networking" while I am killing myself. If I had it to do over again I would get an MBA and be done with it.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

MarkfromMD said:


> I know this sounds like I am a very confused individual but I am actually also working on completing the educational requirements so I can take the CPA exam.


The CPA exam is much easier now that you can do each section individually.

I used the Gleim online courses for my CPA, CMA, and CFM, because they look exactly like the computerized tests. That reduced a lot of test anxiety for me.

Different instruction styles work better for different people, but I can definitely say that you need to pace yourself and don't try to take them all in one testing window. Also, don't take the easiest one first, or the hardest one. I took BEC first and passed it on the first try. I nearly lost credit for it because it took so long to pass the other three parts. If you take the hardest one first and don't pass, you might be tempted to give up.


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## MarkfromMD (Nov 5, 2008)

Does anyone here practice corporate law? I've been poking around looking at the different specialties and this seems to be the most appealing to me. I am just wondering if anyone has any experience or has heard any rumors about the type of work corporate lawyers do. 

Thanks for all the great posts so far and the ones that are sure to follow, 
Mark


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## the law (Sep 16, 2008)

MarkfromMD said:


> Does anyone here practice corporate law? I've been poking around looking at the different specialties and this seems to be the most appealing to me. I am just wondering if anyone has any experience or has heard any rumors about the type of work corporate lawyers do.
> 
> Thanks for all the great posts so far and the ones that are sure to follow,
> Mark


From what I understand, corporate work (transactions) lags when the economy suffers (fewer mergers, etc.).

Admittedly, I don't practice much in that area so I could be mistaken. It seems an area that is more sensitive to the current economy.

However, if you were to start law school in the near future, you would probably graduate and hit it during an upswing. Corporate attorneys make some good money, depending on where you practice. I know some partners who practice in that area for Biglaw firms, and they do very, very well. :icon_smile_wink:

I prefer a less transactional and more litigious practice. Litigators always have work to do and people are always suing each other, especially during recessions. 

As to the original question, I have heard that Powerscore has excellent prep materials for the LSAT.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Does anyone have any opinions on becoming a Patent Attorney? A friend who's in a part-time evening law program is considering taking the Patent Bar. Apparently one of her classmates is working as a Patent Agent (having passed the Patent Bar but not yet having a law degree), and he's making a very nice salary working part time while finishing school.


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## samblau (Apr 2, 2005)

Stringfellow said:


> Is there any way I can talk you out of law school? I am a 3L at a pretty good mid-Atlantic/northeast law school and there are NO jobs. Last summer lots of firms who take on 10-30 summer associates and who normally make offers to all of them were only making offers to 25%. I am in the top 1/3 of my class and I can't land an offer to save my life.
> 
> Also, law school sucks!!! My school has a top 20 business school on the other end of the campus. I drive by it on my way to and from school. All of the students are out drinking and having a good time 5 days a week. It's a big cocktail party! They are "networking" while I am killing myself. If I had it to do over again I would get an MBA and be done with it.


Quoted for accuracy. I don't post much here any more, I will tell you this much, I passed the July 2007 NY bar. Top 50 school. Published Law Review article. Over a year experience. And my unemployment kicks in next week. Do not go in to law unless you are getting a full ride (or mommy and daddy are paying) or get in to a Top-10 school. There are no exceptions. If you get a JD you are most likely going to practice law, forget the "opening doors crap". Even if you do get a "BigLaw" job you will be working 60+ miserable hours a week and after three years will burn out and have little to no practical experience. At the going rate of $35-$50k tuition per year + living expenses you need to earn six-figures coming out to make it even remotely worthwhile, especially if you are in a major city. This is all after spending 3 pretty awful years learning crap that has little to no application in your prof. career.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Part of me always seems to be trying to think of ways to toll the statute of limitations on a potential cause of action against the guidance counselor who told me a BS in mathematics would let me take the patent bar (it won't, by the way).

I need to sit down and figure out how many of the 40 hours I'd need to take it sometime. I'll bet it's not as much as I'd think.


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## SlowE30 (Mar 18, 2008)

Is there any way I can talk you out of law, too? I'm going into medicine. A glut of lawyers looking for work won't be good for me. 

Whatever you do, all the best. Sounds like you're doing the right thing preparing far in advance... I started studying for the MCAT 2 weeks before I took it, 8 hrs a day. I did great, but that probably has more to do with me generally being good at tests.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Stringfellow said:


> My school has a top 20 business school on the other end of the campus. I drive by it on my way to and from school. All of the students are out drinking and having a good time 5 days a week. It's a big cocktail party! They are "networking" while I am killing myself. If I had it to do over again I would get an MBA and be done with it.


I can assure you that the job search for recent business school graduates isn't much better.

In my opinion, the only way an MBA works is if you graduate with a BA or BS, work for a few years and start to learn the ropes in the business world, and THEN go back and get your MBA.

Going straight from undergrad to graduate school leaves you with an advanced degree and no clue what you want to do with it.


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## wessex (Feb 1, 2008)

^+1. Business school is clearly more fun than law school, but an MBA is far more useless than a JD (unless of course you have amazing previous experience - in which case you are ultimately hired for that experience and the signaling tha b-school gives, rather than anything inherently obtained during those two useless years).


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## scwtlover (Nov 12, 2008)

Just ask yourself why you (might) want to be a lawyer. If it's because you can't think of anything better to do or just because you want to make a lot of money, then you should reconsider (at least, unless you have good reason to anticipate admission to a top law school). If there's something you need to be a lawyer to do, or something about the practice or teaching of law that especially appeals to you, then go for it.

A year or two in "the real world" might help clarify your thoughts.


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## the law (Sep 16, 2008)

scwtlover said:


> Just ask yourself why you (might) want to be a lawyer. If it's because you can't think of anything better to do or just because you want to make a lot of money, then you should reconsider (at least, unless you have good reason to anticipate admission to a top law school). If there's something you need to be a lawyer to do, or something about the practice or teaching of law that especially appeals to you, then go for it.
> 
> A year or two in "the real world" might help clarify your thoughts.


I'll second this. Law school is not for the faint of heart. It is grueling, cut-throat and challenging. If you are not passionate about the practice of law, then rethink this route.

I recall some reports that state that law school applications increase during times of economic turmoil. Realize you will have plenty of competition if you go. That's competition for grades as well as for fewer jobs.

However, if you feel strongly about this career move and are flexible, this could be your thing. Some areas have a higher demand for jobs than others. Nevada is a notoriously great job market for attorneys (one of the reasons I moved here - I was turning down _interviews_, let alone offers). The caveat is Nevada pays about half what you'll make in BigLaw in a major city (LA, NY, etc.).

IP is a great field that is always in demand and pays well. If you have the credentials (hard science undergrad degree) then you can make a go of it. Patent prosecution can be boring from what I've been told (I worked at a firm that did some IP work and the IP partner and I chatted a bit about this). IP litigation on the other hand can be very interesting (this same partner was recently in Korea for depositions). Find what you like and certainly do as much research on this prior to setting off. Good luck.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

Not to hijack the thread but if anyone out there in Ask Andy land is hiring feel free to let me know. I have a pretty good resume and better than average work experience (for a 3L).


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## MarkfromMD (Nov 5, 2008)

Hm you guys are making law school sound pretty terrible. I'm doubling up undergrad with B.A. degrees in economics and management and doing a pre-law concentration. 

I've been thinking about going for a J.D./MBA and trying to get into corporate law. 

Hopefully by the time I get done with all that the economy will heading back up again. I definitely won't be able to go to a top 10 school and have been looking at Wake, Richmond, and Georgia as the schools where I am most interested and am likely to be accepted. 

Is it pointless to do the J.D./MBA? Would I be better off just going to work and getting an MBA part time instead of going to law school? I feel like law school is what I want to do and would be a great experience, both for getting me where I want to be job-wise and also for becoming a better educated individual. 

Great responses and lots of good information in this thread! 

Thanks,
Mark


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## nerdykarim (Dec 13, 2005)

I love law school. It's tough, but it's rewarding in a way that my undergraduate education never was.
My first final is in two weeks, though. Ask me again in a month.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

In law school it's just "the exam."


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

MarkfromMD said:


> Hm you guys are making law school sound pretty terrible. I'm doubling up undergrad with B.A. degrees in economics and management and doing a pre-law concentration.
> 
> I've been thinking about going for a J.D./MBA and trying to get into corporate law.
> 
> ...


Law school is VERY terrible! Especially if you want to work in transactional/business/corporate law. I am currently an extern in Philly's largest corporate law firm. We have well over 500 lawyers and almost exclusively work on M&A and business deals and every associate is worried about getting the axe. Associates who are 1 or 2 years from becoming partners are afraid!

Seriously, I go to a good law school. I am in the top 1/3 of my class. I have worked on more legal jobs than anyone else in my class. I am an unemployed 3L! And besides that law school SUCKS!!! I really wanted to be a lawyer before coming to law school. I worked for 2 years after undergrad just to make sure this is what I wanted. I got a good LSAT score and go to a good law school. This is the worst decision I have ever made. I am too educated to get a "regular" job and I don't have enough experience for what legal jobs are available.

If you go to a little school like Wake in the middle of no where like Wake think of your job prospects. It's even worse in NC where you have to compete with Duke and UNC grads in what is a very small legal market. The great thing about an undergrad degree is that no one cares what you majored in. As long as you have it you qualify for most positions. Once you have a post graduate degree that is what you are supposed to do and you cannot "down grade" yourself. I wish I could go back in time and tell myself not to go to law school.


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## scwtlover (Nov 12, 2008)

Stringfellow said:


> Law school is VERY terrible!


On the whole, my law school professors, as teachers, were outstanding; better than my B-school professors.

I don't regret either program. In retrospect, however, I probably would have done better to take some time off between college and graduate school.


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## wessex (Feb 1, 2008)

MarkfromMD said:


> Would I be better off just going to work and getting an MBA part time instead of going to law school?


Why? There are very few professions in which an MBA magically escalates you into the next level of the corporate food chain. Even in those fields, the degree better be full-time from a top 10 school. What kind of work would you like to do? I think you're fooling yourself if you think there will be any entry-level IB M&A jobs for non-ivy league studs available in the next few years.

I think undergrads have a huge misperception about the value of post-graduate education. Try to find a job doing something you like. If you still enjoy the work after a few years, it will become clear what you need to do to succeed and advance. Most of the time it will not include obtaining another degree, and you'd be wasting your youth and money spending your evenings learning about "strategic" management at CUNY.


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