# Political correctness is a threat to free speech and robust debate



## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Words fail me ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...iolating-university-safe-space-by-raising-he/

"According to the association's rules, student council meetings should be held in a "safe space environment", defined as "a space which is welcoming and safe and includes the prohibition of discriminatory language and actions".

This includes "refraining from hand gestures which denote disagreement", or "in any other way indicating disagreement with a point or points being made"."

I cannot believe this is for real. It certainly is inconsistent with people receiving a proper education at university.


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## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

It's much worse:

https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/26708/

https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/26825/

https://www.michigandaily.com/section/news/police-called-diag-over-chalk-messages-targeting-islam

https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/26856/


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Balfour said:


> Words fail me ...
> 
> It certainly is inconsistent with people receiving a proper education at university.


I felt this too when I read the article. Far too much molly-coddling has gone on - well-intentioned no doubt, but with the disastrous result that many young people seem to be entirely lacking in normal resilience, and with a bizarrely inflated readiness to find grievances.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Safe spaces are necessary in order to openly attack:
Caucasians
Heterosexuals
Males
Christians
Conservatives
Capitalists
Winners

There is no double standard in this. Exclusion is needed for exclusion. 
BTW, almost all of the smilies on here are offensive and violate my safe space.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Decades ago I went to a multi denominational church group now and then. They had a few rules. Basically, it was tell what you believe. Don't counter what someone else says. It made the group more thoughtful and less judgemental. Better listeners. It got rid of a lot of pride. When some of these people heard what others believe they swoped beliefs. By the time the last person spoke, and everybody spoke, some had changed their minds several times. 

Debate is good, too.

Maybe the school should require both groups.

Another question is why does the school have these rules. Or, perhaps the question is better asked, what are they (failure/s?) running from?


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## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

Here's one that is particularly astounding (frightening?):



> *The elimination of unsafe, undesirable thinking is a necessary step to establishing true justice in our time.*


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

sbdivemaster said:


> ...


:laughing: That made my afternoon.

"You can't ruin our lives, reality,
our safe space will keep you out!
We can face almost anything, 
but reality, we can do without."

Quite.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

"The elimination of unsafe, undesirable thinking is a necessary step to establishing true justice in our time."

Quite the con job.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Tempest said:


> Safe spaces are necessary in order to openly attack:
> Caucasians
> Heterosexuals
> Males
> ...


Exactly.
The "politically correct" students of the 1980's are now in teaching positions where they can indoctrinate a new generation to even wilder levels of insanity. Jazz hands for the puppets of George Soros.

You have to wonder just how low standards have dropped for some of these people to even get into university.

Student Threatened With Eviction From Meeting for Raising Arms Stands By University's Safe Space Policy
Got to love "The Chalkening" though.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Odradek said:


> You have to wonder just how low standards have dropped for some of these people to even get into university.


In the US the prevailing PC belief is that everyone is entitled to a college education, and that standards as well as tuition are weapons used by the establishment to impede "diversity". Or perhaps it was the workers' paradise.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Mike Petrik said:


> In the US the prevailing PC belief is that everyone is entitled to a college education....


Don't forget the free pot either.

You know, I've been giving this some thought and no wonder we are off shoring and having to recruit immigrant labor.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Transformational delegitimation......safe spaces will soon be enforced at gunpoint.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Shaver said:


> Transformational delegitimation......safe spaces will soon be enforced at gunpoint.


Crossbow. It has a smaller carbon footprint.


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## rlp271 (Feb 12, 2009)

You think safe spaces are a new idea? What are/were Gentlemen's clubs, fraternities, and country clubs? They're safe spaces for wealthy men, university men, and wealthy people respectively. Most of them were also closed to minorities until relatively recently. To think that those aren't safe spaces is to take a very narrow view of the term.

Augusta National didn't allow minorities until 1990 and women until what, 2012? That was definitely a safe space for white men.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

rlp271 said:


> You think safe spaces are a new idea? What are/were Gentlemen's clubs, fraternities, and country clubs? They're safe spaces for wealthy men, university men, and wealthy people respectively. Most of them were also closed to minorities until relatively recently. To think that those aren't safe spaces is to take a very narrow view of the term.
> 
> Augusta National didn't allow minorities until 1990 and women until what, 2012? That was definitely a safe space for white men.


I am sure vigorous political debate _never _happened there. All those white men just nodded in agreement with each other.


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## rlp271 (Feb 12, 2009)

Pentheos said:


> I am sure vigorous political debate _never _happened there. All those white men just nodded in agreement with each other.


So, incidents at a few universities where the idea of safe spaces was taken too far is enough to indict an entire generation of students and call then coddled, lazy, and entitled? I'm just pointing out that the posts here have taken a few incidents on a handful of campuses, and used them to paint an entire generation with a broad brush. But I'm sure there is a lot of nuance there that I'm just failing to see.

Most university safe spaces are not as cloistered as those mentioned in posts above, and if you think all those minorities and women just get along and never have vigorous political debates over conflicting ideologies while they're in a university safe space, then you haven't seen one in action lately.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Why even have "safe spaces". The world obviously offers no such illusions. 

Unless bodily harm is threatened or actually inflicted then where does the safety aspect enter into the fray?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

As lame as it is, I expect that this whole safe space nonsense will run its course soon enough, and the Lefties on campus will return to heckler vetoes and, their all-time favorite, effeminate hissing.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

rlp271 said:


> So, incidents at a few universities where the idea of safe spaces was taken too far is enough to indict an entire generation of students and call then coddled, lazy, and entitled? I'm just pointing out that the posts here have taken a few incidents on a handful of campuses, and used them to paint an entire generation with a broad brush. But I'm sure there is a lot of nuance there that I'm just failing to see.
> 
> Most university safe spaces are not as cloistered as those mentioned in posts above, and if you think all those minorities and women just get along and never have vigorous political debates over conflicting ideologies while they're in a university safe space, then you haven't seen one in action lately.


I am willing to bet (ahem Berkeley) that I have a keener understanding (cough Berkeley) of what ultra left-leaning American campuses (cough cough Berkeley) are like than you do.

But you are correct about one thing: I haven't seen a safe space in action because, as a white male, I violate the very idea of one. I would not be welcome. Plus, I have a spine.


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## Joseph Peter (Mar 26, 2012)

My two most recent favorite instances of poor cherubs feeling pain are: At Emory University, some students voiced complaints of pain after seeing "Trump 2016" chalked onto the risers of some steps. This put Mr. Rushdie in the unfortunate position of having to say "most students" at the school are bright. And, of course, the journalism professor calling for "muscle" to remove a student photojournalist from a campus airing of grievances at Mizzou. Outstanding!

Pantheos, obviously, you have evolved well beyond the bounds of mere mortal...men, sorry to use the male gender specific noun and I unabashedly and with deep regret apologize for referring to Pantheos in a gender exclusive fashion.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/04/06/indiana-university-students-mistake-priest-for-kkk-member/

How can adults be so stupid?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Pentheos said:


> I am willing to bet (ahem Berkeley) that I have a keener understanding (cough Berkeley) of what ultra left-leaning American campuses (cough cough Berkeley) are like than you do.
> 
> But you are correct about one thing: I haven't seen a safe space in action because, as a white male, I violate the very idea of one. I would not be welcome. Plus, I have a spine.


Loving your work, Pentheos. :thumbs-up:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Odradek said:


> Exactly.
> The "politically correct" students of the 1980's are now in teaching positions where they can indoctrinate a new generation to even wilder levels of insanity. Jazz hands for the puppets of George Soros.
> 
> You have to wonder just how low standards have dropped for some of these people to even get into university.
> ...


Notwithstanding the crassly unimaginative, cheaply obtained, signifier to a herd mentality approximation of rebellious individuality that is her silly little nose ring, the response that this oik gives to a reasonable challenge is quite hilarious 'respectfully please go away'. Which is of course 'safe-space' speak for f*** off.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Shaver said:


> Notwithstanding the crassly unimaginative, cheaply obtained, signifier to a herd mentality approximation of rebellious individuality that is her silly little nose ring, the response that this oik gives to a reasonable challenge is quite hilarious 'respectfully please go away'. Which is of course 'safe-space' speak for f*** off.






Pentheos said:


> ...
> 
> But you are correct about one thing: I haven't seen a safe space in action because, as a white male, I violate the very idea of one. I would not be welcome. Plus, I have a spine.


Quite.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Pentheos said:


> https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/04/06/indiana-university-students-mistake-priest-for-kkk-member/
> 
> How can adults be so stupid?


This is worth quoting from the article you link: ""Then my residents, terrified, come running to me, saying yeah the report must be true, they saw him and couldn't believe there was a klansmember [sic] with a whip," he explained. "And I see this picture. It's a priest. With a rosary.""

I'm mean really.

I also find the resident tutor's use of "klansmember" particularly amusing.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

That reminds me of the poor cadets at the Citadel that were doing the same old "Ghosts of Christmas Past" thing they'd done forever and some nimrod saw a photo of them with pillowcases on their heads and remembered that everything is racist. 
https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/25/us/citadel-cadets-kkk-pillowcases/
Oddly, reason prevailed. 
Of course the "safe space" liberals have huge overlap with the people that block entry to a peaceful gathering and suppress free speech under the guise of the victim "inciting hatred" or whatever.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Not political correctness per se, but a fellow traveller example of a world gone completely mad:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/norway-violated-anders-breiviks-human-rights-judge-rules-1461158982


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## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

Balfour said:


> Not political correctness per se, but a fellow traveller example of a world gone completely mad:
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/norway-violated-anders-breiviks-human-rights-judge-rules-1461158982


He's just using the system the PC-progs set up... AGAINST them!


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## Mr Humphries (Apr 5, 2013)

I shall just leave this here as an example of peak Guardian.....
https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/04/01/jeremy-corbyn-jacket-guardian-lol/


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^ To make matters worse I can imagine the hideous Scouse accent of the writer screeching those imbecile words.

More seriously, that letter must be pastiche for it is too perfectly redundant to be real. Isn't it?


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

^ On re-reading the letter I feel reasonably confident it is a well-executed pastiche, a wind-up. Plausibly realistic, however.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Not even hot chicks are safe!

https://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/04/...ves-cheerleader-infographic-after-outcry.html


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

The current "outrage" over anti-semitism in the UK could be seen as a classic of this kind of thing. Manufactured offence over an expression of a truth, for political purposes,


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Chouan said:


> The current "outrage" over anti-semitism in the UK could be seen as a classic of this kind of thing. Manufactured offence over an expression of a truth, for political purposes,


No doubt others are trying to capitalise on the incident, but the real offence that has been caused by the apparent expressions of shocking anti-Semitic sentiment by various figures within Labour, and also by the prevailing perception of latent anti-Semitism on the left generally, should not be falsified as a kind of synthetic or manufactured outrage. It is very real and a failure to understand that will cost the Labour Party here.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Langham said:


> No doubt others are trying to capitalise on the incident, but the real offence that has been caused by *the apparent expressions of shocking anti-Semitic sentiment by various figures within Labour*, and also by the prevailing perception of latent anti-Semitism on the left generally, should not be falsified as a kind of synthetic or manufactured outrage. It is very real and a failure to understand that will cost the Labour Party here.


Care to elaborate, with evidence of "various figures", rather than opinion from the Torygraph?


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Chouan said:


> Care to elaborate, with evidence of "various figures", rather than opinion from the Torygraph?


 It is not opinion - verbatim statements have been reported from Ken Livingstone* and Naz Shah, reflecting one suspects merely the visible tip of the iceberg, which either clearly reveal anti-semitic beliefs or can realistically be interpreted in no other way. If you are unclear what those statements are, you can look at the articles I have linked to in other threads or look elsewhere on line since you seem to distrust the Telegraph's reporting.

* Livingstone's somewhat abrasive approach to Jews goes back some time and has seen him appear in court over an apparent case of Jew-baiting.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I can't believe anti-Semitism and a woman's bare midriff are now on par with one another.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Langham said:


> It is not opinion - verbatim statements have been reported from Ken Livingstone* and Naz Shah, reflecting one suspects merely the visible tip of the iceberg, which either clearly reveal anti-semitic beliefs or can realistically be interpreted in no other way. If you are unclear what those statements are, you can look at the articles I have linked to in other threads or look elsewhere on line since you seem to distrust the Telegraph's reporting.
> 
> * Livingstone's somewhat abrasive approach to Jews goes back some time and has seen him appear in court over an apparent case of Jew-baiting.


Quite. Torygraph stuff, as I suspected. I've already posted the actual interview in which Livingstone is supposedly being anti-Semitic, although he wasn't, as I pointed out in the Corbyn thread. Saying that Zionists made an agreement with the Nazis, which they did, isn't anti-Semitism. Naz Shah I accept, but two people, one of whom did not say anything anti-Semitic, are hardly "various figures".


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

^ Calling for the Jews to be transported en masse to the USA has too many parallels with transportation policies under Hitler to be interpreted as other than anti-Semitic. I think Livingstone tried to make light of that fact, and I think it's clear he has has some sort of problem with Jews; he also seems to have a slight obsession with Hitler, which again makes him suspect. And he is a close confidant of Corbyn - you can see, can't you, how a picture emerges from this, and perception is often all that matters.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

"Calling for the Jews to be transported en masse to the USA"

Except we don't kill Jews here. And, maybe some will become a President someday.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

"Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small. In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One’s standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to."

—Theodore Dalrymple, “Our Culture, What’s Left Of It”


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Liberty Ship said:


> "Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small. In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to."
> 
> -Theodore Dalrymple, "Our Culture, What's Left Of It"


As the published view of a member of the Right Wing Establishment in Britain, I suppose it's of *some* interest giving as it does an illuminating insight into their viewpoint. However, it is merely one person's opinion, nothing more. 
Note that he also only condemning Communist propaganda, as if Communist propaganda was somehow different in its level of dishonesty to any other form of authoritarian governmental propaganda. There is no connection, despite the writer's apparent view, between the obviously dishonest propaganda of authoritarian communism, or fascism, or authoritarian conservatism (like in Franco's Spain) and "political correctness", except in the author's mind.


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