# Get your Alden Horse Bit Loafers while you can...



## Slowhands (Mar 29, 2016)

Just had a pleasant but unfortunate conversation with Jeffrey of Sherman Brothers on the phone. Apparently Gucci is suing Alden for their Cape Cod Horse Bit loafer, and Alden has no plans to fight the suit, and will be ceasing production. He tells me the shoes off the production line this month will be the last ever produced, at least until Alden designs a new bit for the loafer. 

The absurdity of this case aside, this is quite unfortunate news. While I was in the market for a new pair regardless of the announcement, these shoes have consistently been one of my more comfortable and great looking loafers. Get 'em from your favorite retailer while you can...


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

I wonder if Gucci might also sue AE for their version.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

The real question is why no one ever sued Gucci for bad taste in the first place...


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

I always thiught only Gucci was the real thing ( never had any myself).

Funny my search of Gucci and Alden on Google turned up nothing, unlike a search of say Spirit and Led Zeppelin.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Having tried Alden's Cape-Cod Horse bits and their Flex-welt Horse bit loafers, I've always preferred the Flex-welts. They are just a better made shoe. Will Alden be continuing production of the Flex-welt horse bits? :icon_scratch:


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Slowhands said:


> The absurdity of this case aside, this is quite unfortunate news. While I was in the market for a new pair regardless of the announcement, these shoes have consistently been one of my more comfortable and great looking loafers.


I suspect Alden will just redesign the bit in some trivial, but legally adequate, way. So the shoes will remain just as comfortable as ever, and they'll look very similar to the way they always have.

While I don't own a pair of the Aldens, my AE Veronas are among my favorite somewhat casual shoes. I'd take them over a pair of "authentic" Gucci horse bit loafers, any day.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Slowhands said:


> Just had a pleasant but unfortunate conversation with Jeffrey of Sherman Brothers on the phone. Apparently Gucci is suing Alden for their Cape Cod Horse Bit loafer, and Alden has no plans to fight the suit, and will be ceasing production. He tells me the shoes off the production line this month will be the last ever produced, at least until Alden designs a new bit for the loafer.
> 
> The absurdity of this case aside, this is quite unfortunate news. While I was in the market for a new pair regardless of the announcement, these shoes have consistently been one of my more comfortable and great looking loafers. Get 'em from your favorite retailer while you can...


That's definitely an absurd case, assuming your contact got his story right. Gucci loafers have been knocked-off for decades and the company never gave a damn. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more behind this than a design issue. After all, the Alden Cape Cod shoes are about as unlike Gucci shoes as you can get. The companies don't even operate in the same 'space'.


rich warren said:


> Funny my search of Gucci and Alden on Google turned up nothing...


I had no luck either.


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## crispyfresh (Jan 30, 2016)

Until proof is given, its just a conversation piece.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

I contacted our friends at Carroll & Co. in Beverly Hills, CA who have a large inventory of Alden shoes. They knew about the discontinuation but still had a good selection at only $350. 

They even carry a special color in tan suede!They have tan, dark brown and black suede, and Tan, Dark Brown and Black leather.

If you can't go by the shop, just phone (310) 273-9060 and ask for the Alden Dept. AND tell them hello for me!

And if you want to see the great looking store just watch the AskAndy TV show where owner, John Carroll is featured:


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## crispyfresh (Jan 30, 2016)

Andy said:


> I contacted our friends at Carroll & Co. in Beverly Hills, CA who have a large inventory of Alden shoes. They knew about the discontinuation but still had a good selection at only $350.
> 
> They even carry a special color in tan suede!They have tan, dark brown and black suede, and Tan, Dark Brown and Black leather.
> 
> ...


So this is true. Too bad. I think the Gucci loafer is overpriced, just like all their products. The Alden and even the Rancourts are a good alternative.


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## crispyfresh (Jan 30, 2016)

Doctor Damage said:


> That's definitely an absurd case, assuming your contact got his story right. Gucci loafers have been knocked-off for decades and the company never gave a damn. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more behind this than a design issue. After all, the Alden Cape Cod shoes are about as unlike Gucci shoes as you can get. The companies don't even operate in the same 'space'.
> 
> I had no luck either.


You bring up a good point about the knock offs. I think if anything, Gucci is upset at the better made shoe that Alden is offering for about half the price of a Gucci. This makes me wonder if they gonna go after Rancourt, Allen Edmond and anybody else who has a similar horsebit loafer. I have the Rancourts and they are a better made loafer also.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'm not an attorney so I'm not really sure about the nuances of how trademarks and knock-offs works. However, it's a horse bit. I'm not sure that the design is trademarked.

Wouldn't it be something like suing another shoe manufacturer for using laces to tie the shoe, or for the number of eyelets?


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> I'm not an attorney so I'm not really sure about the nuances of how trademarks and knock-offs works. However, it's a horse bit. I'm not sure that the design is trademarked.
> 
> Wouldn't it be something like suing another shoe manufacturer for using laces to tie the shoe, or for the number of eyelets?


Your first paragraph holds the answer. Trademark law is the result of legal contortion, compromise, political interference, corporate influence and inconsistency, not logic.

Your second paragraph is too logical for trademark / patent / copyright law.

Personally - and this is just an opinion - the horse bit loafer feels completely out of place in Trad / Ivy style to me (I have read our threads on it and know there are valid counterpoints - not trying to start that argument here), but find it interesting that the horse bit became a lawsuit issue. Could Brooks Brothers try to reclaim the OCBD - that would be something wouldn't it? Or Press trying to claim the pocket flap on the OCBD? This could get crazy .


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Fading Fast said:


> YCould Brooks Brothers try to reclaim the OCBD - that would be something wouldn't it? Or Press trying to claim the pocket flap on the OCBD? This could get crazy .


I doubt whether Gucci is trying to reclaim the horse bit loafer.

Rather, Gucci may be trying to reclaim the specific design of the metal hardware which is part of the Gucci loafer. The design of the actual, metallic bit.

It's sort of how selling tennis shirts is okay, but closely copying the design and appearance of Lacoste's alligator and putting it on those tennis shirts you're selling violates Lacoste's rights.

But since I've read nothing about this suit, beyond what's in this thread, I obviously don't know any details, and the reality of the situation may be something else entirely.


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## crispyfresh (Jan 30, 2016)

Fading Fast said:


> Your first paragraph holds the answer. Trademark law is the result of legal contortion, compromise, political interference, corporate influence and inconsistency, not logic.
> 
> Your second paragraph is too logical for trademark / patent / copyright law.
> 
> Personally - and this is just an opinion - the horse bit loafer feels completely out of place in Trad / Ivy style to me (I have read our threads on it and know there are valid counterpoints - not trying to start that argument here), but find it interesting that the horse bit became a lawsuit issue. Could Brooks Brothers try to reclaim the OCBD - that would be something wouldn't it? Or Press trying to claim the pocket flap on the OCBD? This could get crazy .


Gucci loafers would be the ONLY thing produced in Italy that i would say is trad. If it weren't so, Alden, Allen Edmonds, etc. would have never produced their versions of it.


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## dparm (Nov 18, 2008)

crispyfresh said:


> Gucci loafers would be the ONLY thing produced in Italy that i would say is trad. If it weren't so, Alden, Allen Edmonds, etc. would have never produced their versions of it.


Allen Edmonds and Alden have made plenty of things that are "not trad" -- just go into an AE store and you'll see plenty of ultra-modern designs, especially in the casual side of things.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

crispyfresh said:


> Gucci loafers would be the ONLY thing produced in Italy that i would say is trad. If it weren't so, Alden, Allen Edmonds, etc. would have never produced their versions of it.


I respect the historical evidence and believe your argument is strong, but they still feel aesthetically wrong to me / they don't feel Trad / Ivy to me. And this from someone who feels jeans are (and has taken sniper and machine gun fire for that view from many well-respect AAAC members) - as they don't jar my eye when I see them as part of the Trad / Ivy aesthetic, but even in this picture, the loafer looks out of place to me.


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Fading Fast said:


> I respect the historical evidence and believe your argument is strong, but they still feel aesthetically wrong to me / they don't feel Trad / Ivy to me.


You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Even thought I don't happen to share it.

I'd note that individual determinations of what's "trad," can be colored by many factors - geographic, ethnic, socio-economic, familial, chronological, etc. (And, of course, many of these factors are themselves interrelated.)

It's not just horse bit loafers which can fall into a sort of grey zone. Consider questions about whether tassel loafers are trad? Or is it appropriate to wear an OCBD with a suit? Or loafers with a suit? Or socks with Top-Siders? Or a quartz wristwatch. Whether a Hyundai can truly be a "trad" motor vehicle. Or if there can be such a thing as a "trad" bar mitzvah. A "trad" gay wedding? And so on.

This time of year, I sometimes wear a seersucker suit. If I'm doing so when visiting friends of mine in central Virginia, nobody bats an eye. If I were to do so when visiting family in northern New Jersey, I'd be asked why I'm in costume.

The Académie française may be able to declare what is French, and what is not, and have most people accept the decision. But last time I checked, there's no Académie trad, with a similar power to promote uniformity and to protect trad's purity.


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## crispyfresh (Jan 30, 2016)

dparm said:


> Allen Edmonds and Alden have made plenty of things that are "not trad" -- just go into an AE store and you'll see plenty of ultra-modern designs, especially in the casual side of things.


Purely a economic move on Allen Edmonds part and those shoes stay on clearance.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Gucci horsebit loafter:










Patent for horsebit:

https://www.google.com/patents/US20080250760

I'm having a hard time findings anything proprietary with Gucci's horsebit.


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Perhaps Gucci maintains that the design is a trademark. Not necessarily that it's patented.

But really, unless/until we see some actual details regarding this whole matter, who knows what the basis of Gucci's claims are?

To be honest, at this point I'm still not entirely convinced that there even is/was any suit.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

I llike my flexwelt bits but I love my classic Guccis (thank you Tilton). IMO the only thing they really have in common are the bits.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^Michael:
What is it about the Guccis that you prefer. From the pics it appears the Guccis might be made from a bit higher quality of leather. Are they anymore comfortable than the Alden's?


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## crispyfresh (Jan 30, 2016)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Michael:
> What is it about the Guccis that you prefer. From the pics it appears the Guccis might be made from a bit higher quality of leather. Are they anymore comfortable than the Alden's?


One reason, other than price, why i have never purchased a Gucci loafer is because of potential toe scrub. The Gucci loafer's toe extends beyond the sole. You can see it in the picture posted where the Gucci is compared to the Alden.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

The Guccis fit my feet like a glove and are lighter. But what I like most is the toe profile. Not sure how old my beloved pair is but I like them much better than the current Classic. And between the current offerings, I'd take the 1953s over the Classics for the same reasons. Now if only Gucci did recrafting...


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

dparm said:


> Allen Edmonds and Alden have made plenty of things that are "not trad" -- just go into an AE store and you'll see plenty of ultra-modern designs, especially in the casual side of things.





crispyfresh said:


> Purely a economic move on Allen Edmonds part and those shoes stay on clearance.


It's worth pointing out that AE has been selling classic looking bit loafers since the 1980s, which old catalogues show. The Bruzzano was the older name for them (if memory serves).


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

12345Michael54321 said:


> Perhaps Gucci maintains that the design is a trademark. Not necessarily that it's patented.


Looking back, the horsebit was never really a Gucci trademark, just a recurring design feature. Their twin GG logo and other patterns are their actual trademarks and ones that they've sued over.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Regarding Alden bit loafers... Alden offers two kinds, with important distinctions.

1. Flex Welt. This is their heavy, goodyear welted version, done on the Van last (I believe) and constructed the same way as their double sole longwing brogues. Seriously, they are heavy shoes. I don't care about the flex welt thing, that's Alden's way of making big heavy stiff shoes less so. Gucci loafers are constructed using a different method (see below) and cannot and must not be compared to Alden's flex welt bit loafers.

2. Cape Cod. These are the moccasin constructed loafers made by another company for Alden. These are much lighter and more flexible. These are made the same way that classic Gucci loafers are made and are therefore directly comparable.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

One of my life goals is to recreate this drlivingston masterpiece with a pile of bit loafers.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Now if only Gucci did recrafting...


These folks might know something about Gucci recrafting. Look under the subheading "Care and Repair":

https://www.gucci.com/us/en/st/faq
These other folks look like they can handle Gucci redos as well. I don't know anything about them, but their before and after shots look realistic:

https://shoeserviceplaza.com/shoe-men-gucci.htm


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

12345Michael54321 said:


> I suspect Alden will just redesign the bit in some trivial, but legally adequate, way.


I would be amazed to see Alden offer any new design change, ever. I don't think change is part of their business plan at this point.
In all seriousness, why does Gucci, a large recognizable fashion brand owned by a large conglomerate, care about a dinky obscure relic with extremely limited production?


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Tempest said:


> In all seriousness, why does Gucci, a large recognizable fashion brand owned by a large conglomerate, care about a dinky obscure relic with extremely limited production?


They probably don't care; as some have pointed out, it's only a rumour until confirmed. It's the silly season in the U.S., don't forget!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

crispyfresh said:


> One reason, other than price, why i have never purchased a Gucci loafer is because of potential toe scrub. The Gucci loafer's toe extends beyond the sole. You can see it in the picture posted where the Gucci is compared to the Alden.





Dieu et les Dames said:


> The Guccis fit my feet like a glove and are lighter. But what I like most is the toe profile. Not sure how old my beloved pair is but I like them much better than the current Classic. And between the current offerings, I'd take the 1953s over the Classics for the same reasons. Now if only Gucci did recrafting...


Thanks to you both for the responses to my inquiry. While I will in all probability continue to just enjoy my flex-welt Horse Bits, I am intrigued by the popularity of Guccis and the loyalty of their fan base. When our over used credit cards have been returned to our respective wallets (to cool down), may we each respectively continue to enjoy our chosen poison!


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

crispyfresh said:


> One reason, other than price, why i have never purchased a Gucci loafer is because of potential toe scrub. The Gucci loafer's toe extends beyond the sole. You can see it in the picture posted where the Gucci is compared to the Alden.


My problem with Italian loafers is that they are just too soft and the sole not rigid enough. For someone on his feet for quite a part of the day, that gets tiring on the arches. I've dealt with plantar fasciitis before and don't want to go through that again.

I have a pair of Ferragamo horsebit loafers so my need for such a shoe is fulfilled. At the point when those wear out, I might consider Gucci.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Tempest said:


> I would be amazed to see Alden offer any new design change, ever. I don't think change is part of their business plan at this point...


Tempest,

Now you know we have had this discussion before. Yes, in general Alden's business model is to; "stick by the stuff" regarding their antiquated designs.

However, various retailers do indeed offer new and updated designs from time to time.

Would you like me to post some pics?


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

I hate to sideline the conversation with my amazement at the zombie-like steadfastness of Alden, but I am only aware of a few retailers that play parts bin mix and match with models designed before man walked on the Moon. If Alden has done something new outside of using oddball colors, materials, soles, or grommets or something else of the MTO variety box-checking, I would be most surprised. I don't entirely mean this in a bad way. They are a literal time capsule, so their authenticity is impeccable. They are as old school as can be for the machine age.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Well, I think it works to their advantage really. We all know what has happened to makers like AE and Church's in recent years. At least Alden is maintaining its integrity by holding the line for sartorial classicism.

Recently, I was reading where the folks at Pitti were dialoging the 1950's nature of the Alden display.

Nevertheless, many have degenerated into bright colored suede abominations. Allowing themselves to sink down into a sartorial abyss where all sorts of heinous fashion crimes are committed.

Alden, however, has emerged as a mainstay and mighty bastion of classic mens footwear.

Thanks.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Those golf grain (or are they pebble grain?) LWBs are beautiful.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> Those golf grain (or are they pebble grain?) LWBs are beautiful.


The LWB are Alpine Grain and the SWB are indeed Tan Pebble Grain.

There are a handful of shops that do exclusive Aldens. You typically have to get on a waiting list.

Thanks.


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Alden does make me smile. They are handsome shoes.


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## Ensiferous (Mar 5, 2012)

Good thing Gucci didn't invent the penny loafer. Hopefully the Norwegians won't be so litigious.

Should Alden now prohibit any unauthorized maker from selling a tassel loafer?


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

^ like


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Ensiferous said:


> Good thing Gucci didn't invent the penny loafer. Hopefully the Norwegians won't be so litigious.
> 
> Should Alden now prohibit any unauthorized maker from selling a tassel loafer?


We don't actually know if there even was a suit.

If there was, we don't know the basis of the suit.

Consequently, I'm inclined to refrain from characterizing Gucci as having brought a ridiculous suit, claiming that it owns the rights to the horse bit loafer. It may have done no such thing.

But, of course, if others wish to make up their minds despite an almost complete absence of actual information, that is their right. (Particularly in a Presidential election year.)


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## niv (Sep 15, 2012)

According to Ivy Style there was no lawsuit, just a request. Worth a read.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ The above reminds me of the scene in "The Godfather" when Michael and Mo Green have a sit down.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

^^ Chenners cites us before this superb quip: "Those who despise the shoe may be rejoicing that they will be spared the visual nausea of having to look at them."


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

niv said:


> According to Ivy Style there was no lawsuit, just a request. Worth a read.


That sounds even stranger than a lawsuit. Gucci must sell a lot more shoes than Alden does and to a much different set of buyers, with little overlap, so why would they even bother with Alden? There's more - or less - going on here than it seems.

Assuming of course this is not a cheap marketing ploy to sell off remaining stock... cough cough Bills cough cough... lol

Besides, AE is the only company making a believable Gucci knockoff, much closer to the real thing than the Cape cods - have they received a request too?


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

SG_67 said:


> ^ The above reminds me of the scene in "The Godfather" when Michael and Mo Green have a sit down.


" . . . buy me out? No - I buy you out, you don't buy me out."


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## crispyfresh (Jan 30, 2016)

niv said:


> According to Ivy Style there was no lawsuit, just a request. Worth a read.


Another reason Gucci will never get my money. All their products are too flamboyant and in bad taste anyway.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Doctor Damage said:


> It's worth pointing out that AE has been selling classic looking bit loafers since the 1980s, which old catalogues show. The Bruzzano was the older name for them (if memory serves).


Yep, and I have two pairs of Bruzzanos and still find them very comfy.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

niv said:


> According to Ivy Style there was no lawsuit, just a request. Worth a read.


As noted by others here, something doesn't sound right. Plenty of other horse bit loafers out there beside Alden - why go after Alden, assuming they really did? And while a phone call might work, still sounds suspicious.

RE "I'm Moe Greene -" there is one verbal broadside after another in that scene: shells exploding everywhere, ships hit below the water line, ships listing but still firing. Wow, great scene in a great movie. Doubt anything half as interesting happened when Gucci's lawyer talked with Alden's rep - just a bunch of boring sanitized corporate speak with any threat wrapped in legalese, probably.


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## mansard_roofs (Jan 13, 2017)

Is the factory that produces the Alden Cape Cod series being shut down?


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