# museums and kids



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

I went into the city yesterday evening to take my wife and son to the neue gallarie for an exhibit on egon schiele which is about to end. I am a bg fan, and was at a retrospective of his about 15 years ago in vienna on the 100th anniversary of his birth that was fantastic. anyway, the museum has a strict policy of no kids under 12. 

while I can understand that, on the one hand everybody complains about american youth not being cultured, and the way to bring culture to kids is to being kids to the culture. I was seriously annoyed.

we have taken my son (4) to art gallaries around the states and in several places in europe, and we try to expose him to as much culture as possible. I don't take him to movies or adult theatre (or nice resteraunts, for that matter) so that he doesn't have the chance of bothering people, but I really can't see how allowing kids into an art museum can bother anybody. 

thoughts on this?


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Typical bureaucratic solution - make a reactionary rule without discrimination. They should allow all civil patrons, and disallow the misbehaving of any age.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

"but I really can't see how allowing kids into an art museum can bother anybody. "

It is the result of the sad of state parenting today.

My youngest daughter is 12 now and like your son, has visited many shows and galleries.
She now checks to see what is on at the Musee des beaux-arts, not I.
But during the Egyptian show last year, dozens of kids were touching stone carvings while their parents said nothing! One kid tried to climb on it, the mother said nothing.
The guards however said plenty.
The mother caused a scene attempting to turn the tables on the guards for having touched the boy while stopping him, and never addressed the issue of the child climbing on an historic stone carving! (It stood about 10 to 12 feet high.

When I returned next, there was a Plexiglas wall around the carving keeping everyone back an additional two or three feet from where the classic "bank line rope" that had been.

The concept completely foreign to you and I,
but common place amongst the masses.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

Globetrotter, I agree with you on this one. However, a few things that come to mind which might trigger such a policy include insurance regulations and the simple fact that should a museum docent or security professional take action against a child in the face of parental negligence, the parents would probably call the police and file a lawsuit. Also, the content of the exhibit might be a factor, but I would think that that would be a cutoff more like an X rated movie; 12 would not make sense in that case. My undergraduate major was Art History and I interned at an excellent museum. I don't remember prohibitions against children then, but that was a long time ago. We had groups of school kids come in during the days, but they were escorted by school personnel, not parents, which is probably better when it comes to accountability.

As with all things we find incomprehensible, look to popular culture as the cause!


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

I don't see it as a typical bureaucratic solution nor a reactionary decision.

It really depends on the museum, their collection, and how they choose to display it. It could well be that the museum directors assessed their potential audience, figured it would be an older audience given the more specialized collection, and planned their layout and exhibitions accordingly. Museums have carrying capacities they must adhere to and sometimes layouts aren't particularly child friendly (especially for children in strollers) although ADA rules have helped mitigate some of these issues. It also gets into staffing issues--how many guards are needed, for example? I also noticed that the museum apparently doesn't do any programming for children.

That being said, I would be disappointed as well. I wouldn't hesitate to take daughter of bosthist into a museum (well, maybe I wouldn't take her to Sir John Soane's Museum https://www.soane.org/) but, as someone who has worked for a museum, I understand the perspective from the other side.

And yes, some people just don't control their kids at all. I shudder to think of a child climbing on *anything* in a museum. I should add that the last time I was at the MFA in Boston, (on a free day, with school out) all of the kids I saw were very well behaved.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

I have never encountered age restrictions in art galleries, and have taken my kids to galleries and museums throughout Europe (and Australia). I would be annoyed to miss Schiele since expressionist art is a great passion of mine. I am off to an exhibion of Otto Dix tomorrow.

Aus_MD


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Yes, sadly, too many children are permitted to behave like wild animals even in the presence of their immediate progenitors. I have not, however, found it the case that such children suddenly become serene and mature at age twelve. It is a shame that well-behaved children must be denied admittance, whilst thirteen (and thirty) year old daemons can pass blithely through the gate and into the collection. It would be thoughtful if a little discretion were exercised.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

The museums I know of that have age restrictions are almost exclusively ones located in historic homes or in historic homes that have been retrofitted to become museums. Because many of the objects are located _in situ_ it is almost impossible to protect them. I believe the Frick Collection in NYC has an age restriction, for example.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> It would be thoughtful if a little discretion were exercised.


As soon as we figure out a system/technology for determining the "origin, make-up, and quality of potential immigrants" we can then adapt that system/technology to determine the worthiness of potential museum visitors. My guess is that it will ultimately have something to do with phrenology.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> The museums I know of that have age restrictions are almost exclusively ones located in historic homes or in historic homes that have been retrofitted to become museums. Because many of the objects are located _in situ_ it is almost impossible to protect them. I believe the Frick Collection in NYC has an age restriction, for example.


I have had intimate experience with an historic house 'museum', and whilst there was an unruly child from time to time, the ones who did far more damage were the adults - who leaned upon, touched, rubbed, moved, flash photographed, and sat upon fragile irreplacable family things contrary to being explicitly told the rules.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

It's probably the most practical way to minimize the potential for disruption and damage. Using discretion is the best way to get sued these days, and who needs the hassle. Unruly (lively?) behavior is in the eye of the beholder. Twelve is twelve is twelve.


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> As soon as we figure out a system/technology for determining the "origin, make-up, and quality of potential immigrants" we can then adapt that system/technology to determine the worthiness of potential museum visitors. My guess is that it will ultimately have something to do with phrenology.


Hahaha. Zach, I agree: louts of all ages should not be permitted while the well-behaved should not be height-discriminated.

Tom


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
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I agree as well. My father loved museums and brought me with him at every opportunity when I was small. I never touched anything I shouldn't.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

We couldn't even protect the treasures of Bagdad, let alone keeping nuts from smashing la Pieta, stealing masive bronze artworks or slashing paintings every few years. Heres an idea, go downtown and buy your kids false I.D. cards. When a guard trys to stop them make a scene about discrimination against 'little people'


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

Perhaps with this particular museum, the Neue Gallerie, since it pertains almost exclusively to Weimar art, there might have been issues of inappropriate materials for children.

I saw this New Yorker cartoon of trying to culture children, and forcing them to see Diana Arbus exhibits and listening to John Cage.

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by Aus_MD_
> 
> I have never encountered age restrictions in art galleries, and have taken my kids to galleries and museums throughout Europe (and Australia). I would be annoyed to miss Schiele since expressionist art is a great passion of mine. I am off to an exhibion of Otto Dix tomorrow.
> 
> Aus_MD


Sylvia von Harden is my favorite lady:

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by LabelKing_
> 
> Perhaps with this particular museum, the Neue Gallerie, since it pertains almost exclusively to Weimar art, there might have been issues of inappropriate materials for children.
> 
> ...


that was my first reaction, too - having seen most of the pieces being shown, before, I know a lot of them are not disney, but I don't really believe in keeping art, even explicit and possibly ugly, from my son. but my wife, who used to be a museum curator herself understood that this was more of an image issue.

in any event, I found it frustrating. I am a big fan of german expressionist art, and I have been trying to get to this museum for two years and now I don't know if and when I will go back.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Liberty Ship_
> 
> Globetrotter, I agree with you on this one. However, a few things that come to mind which might trigger such a policy include insurance regulations and the simple fact that should a museum docent or security professional take action against a child in the face of parental negligence, the parents would probably call the police and file a lawsuit. Also, the content of the exhibit might be a factor, but I would think that that would be a cutoff more like an X rated movie; 12 would not make sense in that case. My undergraduate major was Art History and I interned at an excellent museum. I don't remember prohibitions against children then, but that was a long time ago. We had groups of school kids come in during the days, but they were escorted by school personnel, not parents, which is probably better when it comes to accountability.
> 
> As with all things we find incomprehensible, look to popular culture as the cause!


you may be right, hard to say. by the way, I took a minor in art history, and my wife is an art historian/archeologist, so we have that in common too.


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> 
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> 
> ...


Yes, I am not a fan of censorship like that uproar in the '80s about the Mapplethorpe exhibit and all that.

However, even with museums nowadays, there might be some issues of legality and parents who might sue after taking their daughter to see "Expressions Of Humanity," expecting to see something bucolic and then being shocked by Christian Schad's Two Girls Masturbating or his Four Humours of the sanguine vagina, etc.

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

I went, with my children, to the National Gallery of Art in Canberra today to see an Otto Dix exhibition. I kept an eye on children under twelve of whom there were a dozen or so. Without exception they were well behaved. The gallery had a "children's trail" which seemed to involve a treasure hunt to identify different art works. This is a proactive approach to dealing with boredom.

Reflecting on globetrotter's original post it seems that the type of child taken to a relatively obscure art exhibition is one who is unlikely to run amok.

The one patron who seemed to cause problems in the gallery today was an elderly woman who seemed not to realize that her proximity to paintings was triggering the alarms, and who was impervious to repeated instruction. Perhaps there should be an upper age limit if one adheres to the presumed reasoning of the Neue Galerie.

Aus_MD


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Aus_MD_
> 
> I went, with my children, to the National Gallery of Art in Canberra today to see an Otto Dix exhibition. I kept an eye on children under twelve of whom there were a dozen or so. Without exception they were well behaved. The gallery had a "children's trail" which seemed to involve a treasure hunt to identify different art works. This is a proactive approach to dealing with boredom.
> 
> ...


that was one thing that struck me, too - nobody gets to the neue galerie to kill time, you pretty much have to have made a choice to get there. we have memberships to the met and to the natural history, and a lot of kids get taken to both jutt for something to do, and possilby to have a place to run around when the weather isn't good. the type of parent that is going to take their kids to a relativly obscure museum to see a small esoteric exhibit is probrably not doing it just to let their kids go wild.

anyway, such is life.

how did you like the otto dix? I saw a great show of his stuff in Stuttgart about 8 or 10 years ago.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
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The was his Krieg cycle of engravings - a set of about 50 drawings from the early 1920s based on his wartime experiences. I found the images profoundly disturbing, which is odd given that "actual" images of war are now commonplace, and especially since professionally I once had a great deal of experience with the reality of what he portrayed. There are a couple of images of "madwomen" and another showing the rape of a nun, that are particularly affecting.

I prefer Dix' painting but expressionism is not popular in Australia, so I take what I can get.

Aus_MD


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## SartoNYC (Feb 22, 2005)

If you get to New York City the Museum of Natural History is a wonderful place for children. My recommendation is to get them right when they open the open the doors, bring your own lunch, and to thoroughly enjoy yourselves!


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## mendozar (Dec 13, 2005)

Cafe Sabarsky has some good coffee, but hearing this, I think I'll take my business elsewhere. I grew up near Museum Mile and my parents would always take me to various museums. You have SO MANY other choices in that neighborhood that you should go elsewhere. The Met (down the street), Natural History (across the park), both VERY child friendly. There's also some type of science museum down the street. Guggenheim, Whitney, etc

In a few years, I strongly encourage you to take him to Carnegie or the Metropolitan Opera when you're comfortable with taking him to such places.

Cheers,

Rufino


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

Not allowing kids under 12... It's exactly this type of thinking that causes children to never learn how to behave in places like this and causes those same children to become adults who don't teach their kids how to behave.

By the time I was 12 I had been to every Smithsonian museum in D.C.(at least those that were open in 1979), spent the summer in Germany, Austria & Switzerland during which time my father took a law school course and my mother, sister and I visited every museum, manor house, palace, theatre and classical music performance we could find. I had waited in line for hours to see the first King Tut exhibit at the L.A. County Museum of Art and had been to numerous other museums, historical sites and cultural events throughout the country.

This is exactly why my wife and I have taken already started taking our 2 1/2-year-old to art museums and classical music concerts so that he will appreciate them and know how to behave at these events as he gets older.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

I agree, Bradford.

How are children to know how to act in different public situations if they never go anywhere besides McDonald's playplace? 

It never would have occurred to me to run around in a proper restaurant, but that doesn't seem to be a restriction some parents are aware of these days.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by VS_
> 
> I agree, Bradford.
> 
> ...


We can also thank the fast decline of corporal punishment. It's really quite amazing (in a pathetic sort of way) to see a grown person pleading and trying to reason with an ankle-biter having a public tantrum.


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

I take back everything in my previous post...

Boy, 12, Sticks Gum on $1.5M Painting 
Tue Feb 28, 7:40 PM ET 

DETROIT - A 12-year-old visitor to the Detroit Institute of Arts stuck a wad of gum to a $1.5 million painting, leaving a stain the size of a quarter, officials say. 

The boy was part of a school group from Holly that visited the museum on Friday, officials say. They say he took a piece of Wrigley's Extra Polar Ice gum out of his mouth and stuck it on Helen Frankenthaler's "The Bay," an abstract painting from 1963.

The museum acquired the work in 1965 and says it is worth about $1.5 million.

The gum stuck to the painting's lower left corner and did not adhere to the fiber of the canvas, officials told the Detroit Free Press. But it left a chemical residue about the size of a quarter, said Becky Hart, assistant curator of contemporary art.

The museum's conservation department is researching the chemicals in the gum to decide which solvent to use to clean it. The museum hopes to make the repair in two weeks and will keep "The Bay" on display in the meantime, she said.

"Our expectation is that the painting is going to be fine," Hart said.

Holly Academy director Julie Kildee said the boy had been suspended from the charter school and says his parents also have disciplined him.

"Even though we give very strict guidelines on proper behavior and we hold students to high standards, he is only 12 and I don't think he understood the ramifications of what he did before it happened, but he certainly understands the severity of it now," said Kildee.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Bradford_
> 
> I take back everything in my previous post...
> 
> ...


This is the 'art' in question:

The boy has taste. He has inspired me to start a Foundation which sends busloads of 12 year old boys to modern 'art' museums...with a pack of gum each.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Bradford_
> 
> I take back everything in my previous post...


Why? This kid was in a school group, and presumably relatively unsupervised. The discussion above has been about children with families.

Aus_MD


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

I was just about to post this story of the gum sticking boy, it made the front page of the BBC today. I had not seen it before today.

The quote from the school director in the BBC story speaks volumes.

"The director of the Holly Academy, where the boy goes to school, confirmed that the pupil had been suspended for his actions. 

"Even though we give very strict guidelines on proper behaviour and we hold students to high standards, he is only 12," Julie Kildee said."


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

Hey, the gum kid is a dadaist. He probably added value to that painting 

The Detroit Institute of the Arts is currently under heavy rennovation. The two main wings have been shut down, and most of the works have been shoehorned into the small, central galleries. This makes crowd control quite a bit more difficult, so I can see how a kid could get away from the pack. That being said, a 12 year old should definately know better, he was being an ass. He shouldn't have been suspended, however, he should spend his lovely summer downtown helping to clean up the DIA. The parent's punishment is driving him the 40 miles from Holly to Detroit.


Good/Fast/Cheap - Pick Two


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