# Choice of watch: Cartier or Jaeger-LeCoultre?



## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

Hello,

I am having the choice of these 2 watches (as an engagement gift from my fiancée):

* Cartier Tank 'Louis Cartier' (yellow gold on brown leather strap)

* Jaeger-LeCoultre Reverso 'Classique' (also yellow gold on brown leather strap)

Which would be more recommandable (a part from personal taste) as to quality, history, movement etc.

Does anybody own one of these two watches? Any experiences? I guess both qualify as classic dress watches? (I already have a sporty watch, the Rolex GMT Master II)


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

I would choose the Reverso, without question.


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

i don't wear watches, but i would go with the reverso. although most women will recognize the cartier. depends on what you're going for.


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## FAC (Aug 13, 2006)

Tomasso said:


> I would choose the Reverso, without question.


+1 They are completely different brands. Are you interested in a watch with an widely recognized name or a watch with superior movement and construction?


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

FAC said:


> +1 They are completely different brands. Are you interested in a watch with an widely recognized name or a watch with superior movement and construction?


As it will be an engagement gift for me I would like it to be of superior movement and construction so that it will last for many many years (would like to keep that watch forever and in good state)... I suppose the Jaeger-LeCoultre is truely that much more quality compared to the Cartier?

What is the main difference actually? Just the fact that Cartier is a "name" and Jaeger is higher in quality? Is it also the movement inside the watch that is different?

Many thanks for your answers up until now, I highly appreciate them!


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

If you want the superior watch in every respect, choose the Jaeger LeCoultre and don't look back. 

But interesting choice you mention. At her coronation, the current Queen of England wore a Cartier watch having a Jaeger LeCoultre movement ... the smallest mechanical movement ever produced. Moreover, it's still in production.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The difference is ... the Cartier watch is fine piece of jewelry and an okay watch. The Jaeger LeCoultre is a fine watch ... and a fine piece of jewelry. 

Yes, the movements are very different ... and the work that goes into the JLC will completely trump that of the Cartier. 

I wish I had more time to elaborate ... but I have theater tickets for tonight. I'll be glad to add to this thread tomorrow with information from very good sources.


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## norcaltransplant (Jan 13, 2004)

Cartier: modified ETA 2000-1

JLC: In-House movement


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

Between the two, it`s a simple decision...Jaeger


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## tasteful one (Oct 6, 2006)

*Me too....*

....the JLC is a superior watch with an impeccable history of quality and innovation. And your choice of the Reverso is excellent: It is timeless and elegant and will delight you forever (look at the guilloche on the dial with an eye loupe, the details of the piece are just delightful). Cartier is a 'name', and also a pretty watch (again, their classic "Tank" is a good choice) but the movement is manufactured elsewhere and installed in their case, and that movement, although of good quality isn't really in the same league as the JLC.


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## lee_44106 (Apr 10, 2006)

I have both and I offer a different opinion.

I completely agree with all the above (pick the JLC) if your choice of watches is purely based on "quality" of movement.

Both watches are very classic. Cartier originated the tank design.

That said, you should also take into consideration ease of use. The JLC Reverso has a hand-wound movement, unless you are going with the Gran'Sport Reverso, which has an automatic movement. Since you are not looking for another sports watch, the Reverso you desire will require you to hand wind. Trust me, it's a pain in the ass. That's the reason I've only worn my Reverso less than 5 times since acquiring it more than 8 years ago. Now of course you could splurge on a winder that would wind the Reverso, but it is expensive (the model I'm aware of, made by Orbita, retails for around $1K, I believe)


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

lee_44106 said:


> the Reverso you desire will require you to hand wind. Trust me, it's a pain in the ass. That's the reason I've only worn my Reverso less than 5 times since acquiring it more than 8 years ago.


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## Thurston (Aug 17, 2006)

JLC, without question. I like the analogy above that it is a fine watch and also fine jewelry as oppsed to fine jewelry and an okay watch. JLC produces a product that is almost completely in-house. JLC is more of a watch for the cognoscenti. I believe the classique has a solid back which would provide an excellent canvas for a discreet engraving to remind you of the occasion.

As far as handwinds being a pain, stuff and nonsense. It takes 30 seconds to wind a watch. Unless you are ham handed and overwind your watch (past the point at which the crown is willing to turn), manual winds require less repair and maintenance. In fact, if this is a watch you won't wear all the time then manual v. auto is a non-issue. You'll have to set it and wind it when you want to wear it. For a simple time-only watch, that still takes less than two minutes.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Scott said:


> If you want the superior watch in every respect, choose the Jaeger LeCoultre and don't look back.
> 
> But interesting choice you mention. At her coronation, the current Queen of England wore a Cartier watch having a Jaeger LeCoultre movement ... the smallest mechanical movement ever produced. Moreover, it's still in production.


Actually, the Piguet 9p is the smallest mechanical movement ever made, also available in a Cartier Santos Dumont model.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

lee_44106 said:


> The JLC Reverso has a hand-wound movement, unless you are going with the Gran'Sport Reverso, which has an automatic movement. Since you are not looking for another sports watch, the Reverso you desire will require you to hand wind. Trust me, it's a pain in the ass.


I find it a very nice ritual, once you get into the habit.

I definitely vote for the Reverso.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

While the above posts are true, by and large, they miss the point that, if you buy the Louis Cartier tank in the Collection Privee, you get not only the Cartier "jewelry", which is, arguably, the classic of all classic watches, you also get a Jaeger-LeCoultre movement: the Cartier cal. 9780. To me, this is certainly the best of both worlds.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

rip said:


> Actually, the Piguet 9p is the smallest mechanical movement ever made.


IIRC, the JLC Calibre 101 is the _smallest_ mechanical movement ever made. The Piaget 9P is a very _thin_ movement but I don't recall if it's the thinnest.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

First, allow me to congratulate you on your engagement.

Cartier has a long history of watch-making along with an old relationship with Jaeger. Richemont (Swiss luxury firm) owns both firms. Cartier's watch movement comes from: Constantin, Movado, Audemars and naturally Jaeger.

Both choices you mentioned above are stellar, you can't go wrong. It's a matter of personal taste. My husband has a Cartier Tank and a Reverso, other than the usual yearly maintenance (cleaning the hands et al), never a problem. You should ideally send all your watches for a yearly maintenance.

On a side note, would you consider Lange? I got it as a gift from my parents when I turned 30 and ever since, I haven't really bought anything else other than Lange. Lange is part of the Richemont group as well. All Lange movements are developed, made and assembled in house, it's in Glashuette, near Dresden. Swiss watch making is top-notch, however, after I started wearing Lange, it's simply in a class of its own. Their watches comes in 2 or 3 sizes dependent on models, just so you are aware of this.

https://www.alange-soehne.com/en/home/index.php


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

Many thanks for all these answers, this really gave me a lot of information... still the choice will be a difficult one... yet I'm really thinking more and more about the Jaeger-LeCoultre now...

Just one more point: I have tried the Cartier and so I know the size of that watch but I still have to try the Jaeger, will this watch be about the same size as the Cartier?


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

Also just another short question: is the Jaeger-Le-Coultre I mentioned always a manual wind? Can't we get it in another version?


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

*Don't buy anything quartz*

The standard tank Louis model is made with quartz movement and doesn't come with the signature deployant buckle. So if you decide to go for the Cartier, make sure your financee buy the one from the collection privee, which is manual winding.

www.cartier.com

https://www.jaeger-lecoultre.com/home.do







https://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

rip said:


> Actually, the Piguet 9p is the smallest mechanical movement ever made, also available in a Cartier Santos Dumont model.


Every source I know disagrees with you. And thank you Tomasso for noting the JLC movement to which I refer as being the calibre 101.

Eruoman ... allow me to post more ... first some rather amusing and brief comments as to what watches say about their wearer ... and then a bit of history &#8230; and finally a couple of more serious assessments of JLC watches ... not specifically the one you are selecting ... but very telling just the same.

In a _Departures Magazine_ article back in the 1990s ... when asked what each watch brand says about its wearer ... the owner of Second Time Around (Aspen, Colorado) said of Jaeger LeCoultre, _"You don't follow the crowd, and you have a great sense of aesthetics. These are great watches."_ About Cartier he offered, _"You like style, you want to be safe (but you don't realize that) Cartier is not a watchmaker."_ And just so you know what he was saying about other watches I'll add his comments about Vacheron Constantine, _"You're discriminating, you're willing to pay what you would for a Patek Philippe, but you want something discreet."_ ... and Patek Philippe, _"You want to feel that you've bought the very best watch ... and the most famous."_

A few select words about Jaeger LeCoultre from WATCHNET.com's "Brand Histories:"

_Today, the Jaeger-LeCoultre Reverso is one of the most famous watches ever produced, but were you aware that the company got its start producing ebauches for other companies?

(Beginning in its early years) LeCoultre's motto - "we must base our experience on science" - was particularly true with it came to manufacturing precision movements and tools. The artistry came later at the hands of a master watchmaker, who assembled, decorated and regulated the movements.

LeCoultre movements were so highly regarded, in fact, that until 1910, the company provided Patek Philippe with most of its raw movements.

In 1925, the grandson of the firm's founder merged his company with that of Edmond Jaeger, the exclusive supplier of watch movements to Cartier. Incredibly, up to this point, (neither) Jaeger (nor) LeCoultre had &#8230; sold any watches under (their) own name(s).

On a final note, it is worth noting that Jaeger-LeCoultre is one of the few companies in Switzerland that still produces its own movements, cases, dials, hands and bracelets. Virtually every single component in a Jaeger-LeCoultre watch is hand finished, produced in-house, and this in turn results in strict quality control. As a result, Jaeger LeCoultre, watches are recognized as being among the very finest hand-crafted watches. _

A decade or so ago, Walt Odets, one of the most knowledgable out there when it comes to watches (And, yes, as has been written on here before, this is remarkable given that he is a psychologist &#8230; but I note that he is also trained as a watchmaker &#8230; one who can take apart a Lange or Patek Phillippe and be confident that his reassembled watch is superior to the original.) wrote to a fellow watch fan about Jaeger-LeCoultre's standing:

_ I think you are right that in some of the public's mind, JLC is a sort of second-tier company. This is simply not true.

I would liken your idea of public perception to that of a Mercedes and a Rolls Royce: an 8 or 12 cylinder Mercedes is twice the car of a Rolls Royce at half the price, but there are many who think the RR is a better car because it costs more (JLC's are incredibly good values) and because it looks more expensive. The Mercedes is sparer, more honest, more of an engineer's car. The RR holds virtually no engineering interest at all (though is full of craft), while the MB is full of elegant, imaginative, often brilliant engineering solutions. _

In another piece (of about the same vintage) Walt says of the JLC Master Ultra-Thin - not your particular watch &#8230; but very telling just the same:

_ &#8230;the Ultra Thin is an almost flawless piece of design &#8230; the consistence of attention to engineering details, and the extraordinarily high level of manufacturing quality have produced a whole that is much more - and aesthetically much less - than the combination of its parts. I believe it is fair to say that this is the finest ultra-thin wristwatch ever produced. But I would also venture that this is among the very finest watches in contemporary production, regardless of complexity. It is a masterpiece.

The Master Ultra Thin is probably a watch that, among Swiss manufacturers, could only have been produced by Jaeger LeCoultre. There are, in all of Switzerland, no others with the design and manufacturing skills to conceive and execute this watch with such unrelenting attention to quality. Perhaps more than any other current production Jaeger LeCoultre, the Ultra Thin stands as testimony to the extraordinarily broad talents and deep quality of a manufacturer that, taken on the whole, is arguably the great house, among the greats, of contemporary Swiss watch manufacturing. _

I really can add no more. On second thought &#8230; in closing I will add that for most of the last century (and perhaps still today) the official gift of the Swiss government has been a Jaeger LeCoultre Atmos Clock. Obviously we are talking about a highly regarded company with truly outstanding technical and artistic ability.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

euroman said:


> Many thanks for all these answers, this really gave me a lot of information... still the choice will be a difficult one... yet I'm really thinking more and more about the Jaeger-LeCoultre now...
> 
> Just one more point: I have tried the Cartier and so I know the size of that watch but I still have to try the Jaeger, will this watch be about the same size as the Cartier?


Sorry, the tank that my husband has is the Francaise. I just measured them, please bear in mind, that it's an approximation.

Cartier Tank Francaise, Automatic 28mm x 32mm
Jaeger Classique, Manual 23mm x 39mm
Jaeger Grande, Automatic 26mm x 42mm (Sorry for edit - metal bracelet)

Hope that helps.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

*Frank Muller*

As a side question, how do you guys rate Franck Muller? I understand that he's highly rated in Geneva and is even called a living legend in watchmaking world.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

harrybee said:


> As a side question, how do you guys rate Franck Muller? I understand that he's highly rated in Geneva and is even called a living legend in watchmaking world.


He's very nice, however, a newbie on the scene. But I wouldn't discount him :icon_smile_wink:


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

I think he makes some of the most unusual and inventive watches out there. I don't own one ... but am seriously considering getting one. 

Then again ... I have a good friend who says of his choice of movements, "Why put a twenty thousand dollar paint job on a Toyota." 

Remember ... there are some who poopoo the use of ebauche movements ... paticularly simple ETA movements. Then again, there are others who are fascinated by what can be done with them. I tend to fall into the latter group.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Sorry guys,

don't want to seem like on a roll here, but talking about my favorite topic ... he has a younger following for sure. Would be rather unusual for an older european to consider his styles ... something my brother would wear but not my father, uncle or grandfather.

Couple of years back, there were some malicious rumors spread about him and the Russian mafia in Switzerland  The younger Swiss brushed the rumors off as jealousy induced ...

p.s. got to run ....


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## m kielty (Dec 22, 2005)

Scott said:


> I really can add no more. On second thought &#8230; in closing I will add that for most of the last century (and perhaps still today) the official gift of the Swiss government has been a Jaeger LeCoultre Atmos Clock. Obviously we are talking about a highly regarded company with truly outstanding technical and artistic ability.


After reading your post, I look at JC in a new light. 
Thank you.


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

Fantastic!!!! This really helps me!!!! Again, thanks for all these answers.

Specifically for Scott: thank you for that really informative answer, this convinces me to go for the Jaeger. I liked that information and the quotes very much indeed!!!!

I was checking the specifications online and saw that the Jaeger LeCoultre Reverso Classique comes in 2 versions: a quartz and a manual wind version. The price difference is very small. Maybe this is a really dumb question but which version would be preferable? Is it just a matter of personal taste (some people perhaps don't like rewinding it every day)? Or is there a huge difference in quality of movement between these 2 versions? Both are JLC movements, right?

Anyway even if nobody would know the answer to this last question, my mind is made, I will indeed go for the Jaeger! Many thanks to all for the help!


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

OK I have just now been reading about the difference between the quartz and mechanical movement on a website called Timezone. Highly informative!

https://www.timezone.com/library/archives/archives631703148375478424

This convinces me to go for the mechanical version!


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

For the WIS (Watch Idiot Savant) ... only the mechanical will do. There is no respect among watch aficionados for quartz.

Of course, if you really don't want a watch that requires winding ... get the quartz. But consider this &#8230; winding your watch each morning will help you bond with it. I can't believe I typed that &#8230; I'm hopeless! But it's true!

*WARNING:* If you ever become a dedicated watch fan ... you will regret having a quartz movement ... and as it was an engagement gift ... you won't be able to rid yourself of it ... and yet having it in your possession will bother you. It's a case of Catch 22 in the making.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

By the way ... the Walt I refer to in my post was a founder of TimeZone ... along with Richard Paige.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

euroman said:


> I was checking the specifications online and saw that the Jaeger LeCoultre Reverso Classique comes in 2 versions: a quartz and a manual wind version. Both are JLC movements, right?


Sadly yes, JLC does make a quartz movement. <grin>


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Given the number of posts I've made under this thread ... go ahead and call the authorities ... I really should be committed.


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## m kielty (Dec 22, 2005)

Scott said:


> Given the number of posts I've made under this thread ... go ahead and call the authorities ... I really should be committed.


I called earlier,
they are almost to your door.:icon_smile:


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## MarkusH (Dec 10, 2004)

DocHolliday said:


> I find it a very nice ritual, once you get into the habit.
> 
> I definitely vote for the Reverso.


Same here. Just wind it before you put it on your bed table at night.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Tomasso said:


> IIRC, the JLC Calibre 101 is the _smallest_ mechanical movement ever made. The Piaget 9P is a very _thin_ movement but I don't recall if it's the thinnest.


Actually, I did mean thinnest (this is according to Cartier's info on the Santos Dumont watch). I'm not sure what the benefit would be of having a small movement in a fairly large watch.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

rip said:


> Actually, I did mean thinnest (this is according to Cartier's info on the Santos Dumont watch). I'm not sure what the benefit would be of having a small movement in a fairly large watch.


RIP, I understand the mistake. And in my opinion, there would be no advantage to having a small movement in a large watch. Frankly, I would say that is a disadvantage.

The JLC calibre 101 is used only in women's watches ... and very small discreet ones at that. Let me see if I can find a photograph to post.

Here is just one example of many. https://imageshack.us

Just a moment ... there is a white van in front of my house and two uniformed men at the door. Who is that you say told you I'd be here ... m kielty?


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## rach2jlc (Jan 18, 2005)

I used to own the Cartier Tank Basculante, which was something like Cartier's version of the Reverso. It was a beautiful watch but I always found myself wishing that I had gotten a JLC. So, to jump on the bandwagon, even as a past and present Cartier owner (and fan of the brand), I'd definitely also recommend the JLC.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Scott said:


> ... I really should be committed.


You could always call on Walt O.'s services for psychotherapy.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Hedonist said:


> Sorry guys, don't want to seem like on a roll here, but talking about my favorite topic ... he has a younger following for sure. Would be rather unusual for an older european to consider his styles ... something my brother would wear but not my father, uncle or grandfather.


Well, we all know I'm on a roll &#8230; and the white van is outside ready to take me away ... but I can't help myself when it comes to watches ... and until last night I thought I'd kicked the habit. It had been a month or more since I talked watches. Maybe that's the problem.

I agree with Hedonist in his assessment. While some of his watches in tonneau case are rather traditional ... his watches have never struck me as an appropriate choice for the older or "established" person ... unless that person is seriously into watches. Whenever I hear of a celebrity wearing a Franck Muller ... it is someone such as Madonna, Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis, or Barbara Streisand.

On the other hand, Jaeger LeCoultre watches are worn - or have been worn -- by Gianni Agnelli, Winston Churchill, Giorgio Armani (love him or hate him) and my favorite, Batman (Val Kilmer's Batman &#8230; if my memory is correct. Naturally, Batman wears a Duoface &#8230; one side for Bruce &#8230; the other for Batman).

Thank you Bengal Stripe ... I'll consider that. But as is always the case ... the one with the problem is the last to admit his problem. And I have a feeling Walt shares this problem.


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

Does anybody have an idea which watch Prince Charles is wearing on this picture:

www.gettyimages.com select picture 71378100 under category 'editorial'


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

*Looks like a vintage reverso*

https://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

Thank you harrybee


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

My eyes aren't what it used to be ... but I was thinking Cartier. And I'm the JLC fan! Can we get a closer look at Getty Images (great photos!)?


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Scott said:


> My eyes aren't what it used to be ... but I was thinking Cartier.


Yeah, it looks like Cartier.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

My grammar isn't either.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

actually my Gran'Sport Reverso Chronograph is mechanical...its the single sided version which is automatic only.



lee_44106 said:


> I have both and I offer a different opinion.
> 
> I completely agree with all the above (pick the JLC) if your choice of watches is purely based on "quality" of movement.
> 
> ...


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*Jager*

Definately, as it still has in-house movement, very nice, great watch, nice design.

Cartier is good, but it's dull and to pay that for an ETA movement.

But you buy a Cartier because it is a Cartier, not because it is a good watch.

Andrey


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## Lance99 (Aug 9, 2006)

I agree with the others on the JLC non-quartz choice. Timezone is a great resource as well as the PuristS site.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Are they seriously still manufacturing these? That's something my granny would wear and poke my grandpa in the RIBS and ask:

*'What's the time now, deeaaarrr?'*



Scott said:


> Here is just one example of many. https://imageshack.us


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

Hedonist,

How's this for you?










Or this?


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

If you still want the calibre101 movement but with a bigger dial, try this:


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

harrybee said:


> Hedonist,
> 
> How's this for you?
> 
> ...


  

Thanks for the show, but I'll pass!


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

harrybee said:


> If you still want the calibre101 movement but with a bigger dial, try this:


Hahahahaha ... a little better, but with ALL that BLING, I'll have to wear 2 pairs of polarized sunglasses before I can read the time!


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Tomasso said:


> IIRC, the JLC Calibre 101 is the _smallest_ mechanical movement ever made. The Piguet 9P is a very _thin_ movement but I don't recall if it's the thinnest.


While I'm sure that the 101 is the smallest ... most of the public information indicates that Jaeger LeCoultre and Audemars Piguet have been the ones claiming the thinnest movement.

*EDIT* Here is a bit of info about the thinnest automatic ... which may explain the info leading to my post above ... but I note it's about an automatic movement. _Jaeger LeCoultre has continued to thrive, introducing such innovations as the Memovox, Futurematic, Atmos Clock (which in and of itself could be the subject of an article) and the world's thinnest automatic. The thin automatic movement in particular was an incredible success, as both Vacheron Constantin and Audemars Piguet featured it in wristwatches advertised as being the world's slimmest self-winding timepieces. During the 1970's and early 1980's, Jaeger-LeCoultre produced a 36 jewel, self-winding calibre for Patek Philippe._


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

A fascinating thread, since I'm in a similar position to the OP - choosing between a Cartier Tank Francaise, IWC Portofino or JLC Master Ultra Slim.

I must say, I like the appearance of the Cartier the best but this thread is very educational regarding the insides. I may still choose the Cartier simply because of the aesthetics but this thread does complicate matters... not that having this sort of decision dilemma is too much to be regretted.


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## Urbane Legend (Sep 7, 2006)

I have the JL Master Series watch which I am quite happy with.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I like the JLC over Cartier. I would also look at IWC and other boutiques.


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## zjpj (Sep 19, 2006)

JLC, no question


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

*Best Of Europe 100 - only European names*

Best Of Europe 100 (AD German)

Thought all of you would like to know that - not in any particular order - these 2 watches made it to the Oct '06 AD Best Of Europe 100, no other watches was mentioned. It's a general Best of Europe, notable persons, hotels, furniture &#8230; the like.

Jaeger "Master Compressor" Extreme World Chronograph 46 - limited edition of 246 pieces. How much? I hear you ask &#8230; Euro 17,000 approx.

Patek Phillippe "Ellipse D'Or" 18K rosegold Euro 13,410 approx.


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## amerikajinda (Nov 11, 2005)

Interesting bit about the Jaeger-LeCoultre Reverso - it was made with a swivel case that was specially designed for British colonial officers in India many years ago. The officers required a watch that would remain undamaged from hard knocks sustained during their Polo games!


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Hedonist said:


> Patek Phillippe "Ellipse D'Or" 18K rosegold Euro 13,410 approx.


I personally, have a soft spot for the "Ellipse D'Or", but that probably shows my age.

At auctions, they go remarkably cheap, there is virtually no market for the ultra-slim, ultra-smooth watches of the 1970s. I have the suspicion, that in 25 years time, when the '70s watches are highly regarded, people will look down at today's 42mm knuckle-dusters with similar contempt.


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## GentleCheetah (Oct 17, 2005)

JLC, classic beauty both inside & outside. Cartier for impressing the opposite sex but not the ones from the upper crust.

Speaking of women who are attracted to money, here are my prejudices. Regular run of women, regardless of their educational background and profession, are very easily taken with signs of wealth and success. Psychologically speaking, they are wired (and inculcated) to become successful in life. Hence money attracts them. 

The upper-crust women probably don't care. I've met a few girls who I consider descended from the Chinese upper class (before the communist time). None of them were materialistic. They were attracted to brilliance, good manner, good tastes and general social status of a man. One even complained about the gold-rush mentality in the bay area.

The truly bottom ones (working class girls) tend not to care, as (I guess) most of them have long given up the dream of social climbing and are presently quite enjoying their care-free life style. From my limited interaction with women and observations, I find them to be quite receptive to real gentlemen.

It's the ones that are in the middle who tend to feel anxious and are quite opportunistic. I don't blame them. It's how the system works. But it does take a lot of charm out of the chase.


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## bespoke therapy (May 12, 2005)

To take a slightly contrary view, Cartier was the first to create a wrist watch- for Santos Dumont, the Brazilian Aviator who was a pioneer of early flying. So, they have some history and pedigree. There are some Cartiers I wouldnt mind wearing. But, they are not exactly discreet..unlike a JLC. If the OP has a Rolex, he probably has the bling factor covered...and a JLC will probably be the exact opposite, which may or may not be desirable.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

bengal-stripe said:


> I personally, have a soft spot for the "Ellipse D'Or", but that probably shows my age.


I think that it shows taste more than age. It is an absolutly stunning watch and one of the few Pateks that I would want to wear.

I have a JLC, and do not own a Cartier. That may show you where my sympathies lie. I do like the handwound line that Cartier makes. It is visually stunning. I would still take the Reverso by a good margin.


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## bespoke therapy (May 12, 2005)

Hedonist said:


> Best Of Europe 100 (AD German)
> 
> Thought all of you would like to know that - not in any particular order - these 2 watches made it to the Oct '06 AD Best Of Europe 100, no other watches was mentioned. It's a general Best of Europe, notable persons, hotels, furniture &#8230; the like.
> 
> ...


-------------------------------------------
These lists are highly subjective. Although both are very nice watches, a casual visit to timezone.com would find passionate advocacy for other models/brands. I would, for example, concur w your previous post about Langes being truly beautiful watches and arguably should have been on this list.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

bespoke therapy said:


> -------------------------------------------
> These lists are highly subjective. Although both are very nice watches, a casual visit to timezone.com would find passionate advocacy for other models/brands. I would, for example, concur w your previous post about Langes being truly beautiful watches and arguably should have been on this list.


Agreed.

I usually pay very little attention to rankings et al, I've had the magazine since late September and was browsing through it last night and thought that other members might be pleased to know that it made it to the list especially if they own it. Wrt Lange &#8230; for me, it's the cat's pajamas and frankly, that's good enough for me.

Coming from a country with a proud tradition and history of watch making, in general men collect watches, clocks the like and don't really associate any kind of message/s to a particular brand of watch. I mentioned briefly (to my father) that some members view certain brands to convey a certain message. He then asks in puzzlement: 'What do you call a man who collects all of the above brands?' I winked at him and said: 'A Renaissance man, perhaps?'


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

By now, Euroman should be enjoying his Jaeger-LeCoultre Reverso Classique (or did the Cartier finally make it onto his wrist?). In any case, as the owner of both a Jaeger-LeCoultre Reverso Duo and a Cartier Louis Cartier Tank, I thought it might be worth adding just a bit to complete this discussion.

Despite some of the comments above, the two watches may have more in common than is apparent. Cartier and Jaeger have been linked for over 100 years. By 1903, Cartier was, in fact, Jaeger's most important customer and by 1907 the Brothers Cartier had entered into an arrangement with Edward Jaeger whereby Jaeger not only produced movements for Cartier watches but Cartier had exclusive rights to certain chronometers, watches with flat movements, and certain new innovations. Over the years Jaeger (and subsequently Jaeger-LeCoultre) supplied over thirty different calibers for use in Cartier-produced watches. When Cartier moved to more quartz mechanisms, that relationship dwindled, but it has now been rekindled. The mechanical movement in the Collection Privee Cartier Paris Tank Louis Cartier, however, is (I believe) the Piaget based, manually wound, Cartier Caliber 9701 MC. It is a classic watch, one of the iconic designs in watchmaking, and a forerunner of virtually every other rectangular design -- the Reverso included. It is a beautiful watch and a major step above the Cartier Tank watches that received such short shrift earlier in this discussion. If one wants an outstanding tank watch, this is certainly one to consider.

The Reverso is yet another classic, representing the finest of art deco design. Few companies can match JLC's history of quality, innovation, leadership, and craftsmanship. It should be of little surprise that the company -- now some 175 years old -- has made the mechanisms for some of the great names in Swiss watchmaking, including IWC, Breguet, Vacheron Constantin, and, of course, Patek Philippe. The Reverso design was a remarkable innovation, so simple in its appearance yet so complex in its execution. It remains a model of watchmaking excellence.

I find that I wear these two watches differently. While both bridge the gap between dress and sports watches, I wear the Cartier almost exclusively as a dress watch. That is probably the result of the material; mine is red gold (I believe it also comes in platinum) with a black reptile skin strap. I wear the JLC more often: on sportier occasions (perhaps because of both the design and the material; mine is stainless steel with brown leather strap); when travelling (I have a Duo with faces for two time zones which is different than the Classique which has a single face with the reverse being plain metal on which one could -- should he desire -- to add engraving or enameling); and on more casual occasions (because of both the look and because it _feels_ more robust to me though I don't really know if that's the case). The size of the two watches is not terribly different, but the price may be. The Collection Privee Cartier Paris Tank Louis Cartier is far more expensive than the standard Louis Cartier tanks let alone the Tank Solos..retailing for $12,000 or so. The JLC Reverso Classique in 18K gold has a list price of a $8,500 or so.

The choice can be a difficult one. I took the easy way out. I have them both. 

So, Euroman, what did you decide?


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## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

RSS said:


> Every source I know disagrees with you. And thank you Tomasso for noting the JLC movement to which I refer as being the calibre 101.
> 
> Eruoman ... allow me to post more ... first some rather amusing and brief comments as to what watches say about their wearer ... and then a bit of history &#8230; and finally a couple of more serious assessments of JLC watches ... not specifically the one you are selecting ... but very telling just the same.
> 
> ...


Very interesting post. Thank you. I would love to read more of the comments in the article about Patek.


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## drrac2 (Mar 25, 2006)

JLC without question!!!!!!


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## kshah (Oct 30, 2006)

This watch seemed great, but I'm not sure if this is a reputable dealer:


Great price!


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

They are not an authorized Jaeger-LeCoultre dealer, though that does not mean they are not "reputable." Rather, companies such as this operate on the "gray market." ADs are generally prohibited from selling such watches at deep discount. It is also generally the case that ADs must order and sell a certain number of watches in order to maintain their "authorized" status. This may be difficult for certain -- often smaller -- jewelry stores. To do this, therefore, some ADs and distributors order the requisite number of watches but then sell off some of them to such gray market discount houses. While such watches may be authentic, this generally voids the manufacturers guarantee. (In many instances, the gray market dealers substitute their own warranties instead.) Buying from such dealers may also affect the resale value of the item. Some of these dealers (like the one's cited in this posting) have been around for quite some time and are indeed quite reputable, but one should always beware of online webstores that sell high end watches at substantial savings. A thorough investigation is always warranted.


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

medwards said:


> They are not an authorized Jaeger-LeCoultre dealer, though that does not mean they are not "reputable." Rather, companies such as this operate on the "gray market." ADs are generally prohibited from selling such watches at deep discount. It is also generally the case that ADs must order and sell a certain number of watches in order to maintain their "authorized" status. This may be difficult for certain -- often smaller -- jewelry stores. To do this, therefore, some ADs and distributors order the requisite number of watches but then sell off some of them to such gray market discount houses. While such watches may be authentic, this generally voids the manufacturers guarantee. (In many instances, the gray market dealers substitute their own warranties instead.) Buying from such dealers may also affect the resale value of the item. Some of these dealers (like the one's cited in this posting) have been around for quite some time and are indeed quite reputable, but one should always beware of online webstores that sell high end watches at substantial savings. A thorough investigation is always warranted.


I've been aware of grey market dealers, but not about how some shops must sell a certain number of watches to maintain AD status. So this must mean at a certain time of year with these smaller AD shops, you can probably strike a better deal on a watch than other times, correct?


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

kshah said:


> This watch seemed great, but I'm not sure if this is a reputable dealer:


By the way, the Reverso Duo is indeed a great watch (I have one, though mine is in stainless steel). However, I should note that it is a bit different than the Classique model about which the OP asked. First, the Classique is a bit smaller in size. Second, it has single face; rather than having a second dial on the reverse, it is metal, which some have engraved. Of course, it is this reverse feature that was essential to the original Reverso concept -- the ability to reverse the watch so that the crystal face could be protected from damage (reputedly whilst at sports, notably polo). And third, I do not believe the Classique has a small seconds hand at 6:00.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Roikins said:


> I've been aware of grey market dealers, but not about how some shops must sell a certain number of watches to maintain AD status. So this must mean at a certain time of year with these smaller AD shops, you can probably strike a better deal on a watch than other times, correct?


Perhaps, but it remains very challenging to find authorized dealers who discount beyond 15 to 20 percent as a result of the strictures placed on them by the manufacturers. However, there have been postings on this Forum before about receiving AD reductions of up to 30 percent.


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## tasteful one (Oct 6, 2006)

*My vote's for the JLC....*

....just a classy, elegant, timeless, beautifully engineered peice of wrist art..the 'Anti-Rolex', I think it appeals to those with real taste and enough self confidence that they don't need to wear a boner on their wrist to (try) to impress others....

Cartier makes a *nice* watch, but they rely more on the star power (for some) of their name to sell their wares, as I recall they haven't actually made a watch movement in about a hundred years. What you're buying is that name, and supposedly, the talent and design ingenuity of the case and dial. It is, more than the JLC, a piece of jewelry first (i.e. a pretty looking ornament made of precious metals and gems), and a 'functional item' second. The 'Tank' watch (which they 'invented, btw), is undeniably a beautiful, elegant piece....

The discussion about AD v. grey market is one that is off topic for this thread, but my $.02 is that you get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get. If you're the type for whom saving some $$ is very important..perhaps at the expense of service/warranty later on, then GM is the way to go. However, if you sleep better at night knowing that your new watch is covered by the manufacturer, then the extra $$ is well spent.


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