# Loafers with a Suit?



## richardnoggin (Jul 11, 2012)

Would it be all too out of order to wear a pair of black leather AE loafers with a suit?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

richardnoggin said:


> Would it be all too out of order to wear a pair of black leather AE loafers with a suit?


It all depends on why you're wearing the suit in the first place. Sixites Mod/Skinhead style with loafers for a club night is totally okay is in fact de rigeur. 
Business meeting middle of the day, not okay.
A hathcing, matching or despatching also not okay.


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## richardnoggin (Jul 11, 2012)

Thank you Earl. Instinct told me that sporting a pair of nice loafers with a suit for a business centered atmosphere was not okay and you sir have helped confirm that line of thinking. I am very grateful for yout time and opinon. 
Ric


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

It depends on where you are as well. I've the impression that the practise is much more accepted in the US, especially on the East Coast (again, depending on the suit, and I may well be totally wrong. If anyone can confirm or disprove I'd be grateful). What I _am_ certain of is that for a 'business centered atmostphere' Brogues with a clean, close lacing, or the more conservative Oxfords, would be fitting.


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

*It depends!*

It depends upon the area of the country you are in. Here in the south it is completely acceptable to wear black or burgundy tassel loafers (ala Alden cordovan) with suits. In fact, it is a normal occurrance. Perhaps in the northeast that is not the case, but I suspect that you'll see many instances of navy, charcoal etc suits worn with either burgundy or black tassels. Penny loafers would be another situation altogether and would only be worn with more casual suits such as seersucker or poplin.
Just a southern perspective.
Tom


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

I think the general answer is no. As fishertw notes - people do - I saw a gentleman wearing a tassel loafer with a tuxedo yesterday. That clearly looked out of place. On a suit not so much out of place but I wouldn't do it. Consider a monk shoe instead or something like this if you really want loafers with your suits:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Tassel loafer with a business suit is perfectly acceptable in the US. Bit loafers too. That said, these options will diminish the formality of a (especially dark) suit somewhat (much like a blucher), and therefore should be selected only if the forum or context makes this desirable or appropriate. Similarly, the formality of a sport coat or navy blazer (with or without a tie) can be enhanced by wearing bals instead of loafers or bluchers.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

No, unless one of the glamour industries.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Yes, context is indeed everything. If you're looking for a simple answer then 'no' is best. However, on the Left Coast, especially in tech or entertainment where even having a suit on is exceptional, wearing loafers with it would be no problem. I often wear a pair of burgundy AE Kenwoods with mine . . . but then, I'm retired and do what I damned well please.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Orsini said:


> No, unless one of the glamour industries.


As a senior partner of a large law firm, I work with senior executives of Fortune 100 companies, investment bankers, Big 4 partners, United States Congressmen, etc., and I think this is one of those very rare cases where you are mistaken, Orsini. Black suits, on the other hand ....


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Mike Petrik said:


> As a senior partner of a large law firm, I work with senior executives of Fortune 100 companies, investment bankers, Big 4 partners, United States Congressmen, etc., and I think this is one of those very rare cases where you are mistaken, Orsini. Black suits, on the other hand ....


The fact that those you mention in positions of power all have it wrong in NO WAY makes Orsini mistaken.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

mrkleen said:


> The fact that those you mention in positions of power all have it wrong in NO WAY makes Orsini mistaken.


To be clear, tassel loafers with suits are not "out of order" because these gents wear them; these gents wear them because they are not out of order. Tassel and bit loafers with suits are an accepted American trad practice. The fact that you may not prefer that practice in NO WAY renders wearing such loafers with suits "out of order."


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

mrkleen said:


> The fact that those you mention in positions of power all have it wrong in NO WAY makes Orsini mistaken.


The OP asked if it would be "all too out of order", not whether it was technically correct according to some elusive yet oft quoted book of dressing "rules". Based on Mike Petrik's personal experience, with which I would concur, I would say that it wouldn't be out of order at all to wear tassel or bit loafers with a suit.

Edit: Mike, just saw your retort after I posted. You just beat me to it with the same line of thinking.


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## StylinLa (Feb 15, 2009)

I have in the past worn bit loafers with a suit here in LA, but I wouldn't do it anymore. Want to hold onto some standards given the loose atmosphere out here. It's fairly rare that I wear a suit to work anymore, and rarer still to complete it with a tie (which is equally annoying to many here I'm sure).

I've seen some people do nice loafers with a suit and it doesn't look bad in the context of SoCal. What I loathe is the many "tech" guys who will wear sneakers with a suit as their "I'm a modern tech guy" badge.


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## NewStyle (Apr 25, 2012)

I would save loafers for when you're loafing...

loafer |ˈlōfər|
noun
1 a person who idles time away. 
2 trademark a leather shoe shaped like a moccasin, with a low flat heel.

If the suit is casual for a family dinner or child's graduation, by all means. Loafers are meant for the man en loaf.


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> To be clear, tassel loafers with suits are not "out of order" because these gents wear them; these gents wear them because they are not out of order. Tassel and bit loafers with suits are an accepted American trad practice. The fact that you may not prefer that practice in NO WAY renders wearing such loafers with suits "out of order."


+1 (thanks Mike!)


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## alphadelta (Oct 2, 2007)

As others have said, it depends upon the suit, occasion and location. If I was wearing a dark pinstripe suit to a NYC investment banking board meeting, no way. If I was wearing a navy blue or charcoal gray suit in most business environments then I would gladly wear these AE merlot Manchesters.

When standing, these loafers will look the same as lace up wing tips (assuming properly tailored trousers). When seated, your shoes will be under your desk or the board room table and no one will notice. The only time the tassels will show is when walking.

Most people will not notice if your shoes are lace up or loafers providing that they are in good condition and nicely polished.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> As a senior partner of a large law firm, I work with senior executives of Fortune 100 companies, investment bankers, Big 4 partners, United States Congressmen, etc., and I think this is one of those very rare cases where you are mistaken, Orsini. Black suits, on the other hand ....


And just to be clear, I usually wear bals with dark suits, because it is my preference (same as Orsini) and usually the same factors that occasion a dark suit occasion bals. But not always. Sometimes, dressing the dark suit down just a bit seems right to me. Moreover, in traditional American business circles bit and tassel loafers are common and time-tested, even if not everyone's aesthetic preference. Wearing a suit without a tie in this context would be looked upon as odd or even inappropriate. Same with a solid black suit. Not so a business suit with bit or tassel loafers. Thanks to FlCracka and fishertw for their support.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Oldsarge said:


> Yes, context is indeed everything. If you're looking for a simple answer then 'no' is best. However, on the Left Coast, especially in tech or entertainment where even having a suit on is exceptional, wearing loafers with it would be no problem. I often wear a pair of burgundy AE Kenwoods with mine . . . but then, I'm retired and do what I damned well please.


+1. Oldsarge, you must know I consider you one of my sartorial mentors.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

I would say it's not 'out of order' but it's also not a particularly proper or stylish choice with a business suit.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Haffman said:


> I would say it's not 'out of order' but it's also not a particularly proper or stylish choice with a business suit.


I suspect we should stay out of this one!:wink2: I could inflame things by asking whether the loafers should be black ...


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Haffman said:


> I would say it's not 'out of order' but it's also not a particularly proper or stylish choice with a business suit.


Opinions vary as to stylish, but they are most certainly "proper" this side of the pond.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Balfour said:


> I suspect we should stay out of this one!:wink2: I could inflame things by asking whether the loafers should be black ...


Oh why not? The answer is obviously it depends? But while black is safest for a business suit, context and forum matter. I have a very handsome worsted wool taupe suit that can work nicely with burgundy tassel loafers depending on the situation. Truthfully, the same is true of navy or dark gray suits.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> Similarly, the formality of a sport coat or navy blazer (with or without a tie) can be enhanced by wearing bals instead of loafers or bluchers.


The Atlantic yawns pretty big over the loafers thing, I suspect.

I was interested by this comment. A Mantonism that I've never quite got my head around is his objection to bals aka oxfords with an odd jacket. He holds that view very strongly, but I've never seen the objection (especially if the shoe has some broguing). Is it commonly accepted as appropriate by discerning people on your side of the Pond? (I speak as someone - like arkirshner - who has a lot of respect for Mr. Anton.)


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Balfour said:


> The Atlantic yawns pretty big over the loafers thing, I suspect.
> 
> I was interested by this comment. A Mantonism that I've never quite got my head around is his objection to bals aka oxfords with an odd jacket. He holds that view very strongly, but I've never seen the objection (especially if the shoe has some broguing). Is it commonly accepted as appropriate by discerning people on your side of the Pond? (I speak as someone - like arkirshner - who has a lot of respect for Mr. Anton.)


I also have high regard for Manton, but disagree with any such rigid objection. I think that it is better to view bals as standard for dark business suits and bluchers and loafers as more standard for odd jackets. But deviating from these standards to "formalize" odd jackets or "informalize" suits is common and even desirable depending on circumstances. Same with black versus burgundy versus brown. A discerning gentleman uses all elements of his dress to achieve the appropriate level of formality that he wishes to achieve. Perfect consistency is far too rigid.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> Tassel loafer with a business suit is perfectly acceptable in the US. Bit loafers too. That said, these options will diminish the formality of a (especially dark) suit somewhat (much like a blucher), and therefore should be selected only if the forum or context makes this desirable or appropriate. Similarly, the formality of a sport coat or navy blazer (with or without a tie) can be enhanced by wearing bals instead of loafers or bluchers.


Don't think I could add a thing.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Now having read through 2 pages, the OP is obviously no wiser, because some of you are saying "yes, it's fine", others are saying "yes if the situation allows for it" others are saying "no".


I'll stick to my (albeit European) guns, and say "No, not for business but yes for leisure"


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Now having read through 2 pages, the OP is obviously no wiser, because some of you are saying "yes, it's fine", others are saying "yes if the situation allows for it" others are saying "no".
> 
> I'll stick to my (albeit European) guns, and say "No, not for business but yes for leisure"


You just need to learn who to listen to.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Orsini said:


> You just need to learn who to listen to.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

I recognize that the concept of loafers with suits is accepted by well dressed men, especially in the South. Mr.Petrik correctly points out that pairing a loafer with a suit reduces an ensembles formality, and there are times one would want to give that impression. Nevertheless, I recommend against them. I don't like them, and maybe I am deluding myself but I believe the exercise of reason justifies my feelings. 

First, it is not just the well dressed man that wear loafers with suits. For every well dressed man with loafers there are 20 slobs, men with ill fitting jackets of the wrong fabrics, ill fitting pants, the wrong shirts, and the wrong ties. Conceptually, guilt by association is politically incorrect, but that's the way the mind works. 

Probably all of us to some extent judge books by their covers. Some men look down on the loafer/suit combination, that's just reality. In an analogous situation in another thread, our other great Atlanta lawyer, Cuff, told it the way it is: 



"I understand it is not that way everywhere. But it's what I've been around. I cannot set aside my long personal experience with them to be able to judge black suits without this connotation. Know that this connotation is out there in the world. You can ignore it, but that doesn't make it leave the minds of those who have it." Cuff Daddy


Second, if one wants to lower the formality of an ensemble there are better ways that wearing loafers; substituting fabric, a windowpane or plaid instead of a solid or stripe; a lighter tone eg. a mid grey instead of charcoal; a blue shirt instead of white, a patterned shirt instead of solid; a stripe tie instead of small dots; brown shoes instead of black; and blutchers instead of bals. If one is determined not to wear laced shoes, than dressy monks, like those upr class often wears, monks that cannot be conflated with loafers.

I recently came across a maxim that can well be applied to dress: "Rules are for the obedience of the inexperienced and the guidance of wise men." ( Sir Douglas Bader). This is the way the no loafers with suits "rule" should be looked at. While Mr. Petrik can judiciously pair the right loafer, with the right ensemble, on the right occasion, most men get it wrong most of the time. Remember, Nicholas Sarkozy wore loafers with suits; the people gave "President bling bling" the boot.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm not a fan of loafers with suits, either although I suppose there are worse sartorial sins.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

arkirshner said:


> First, it is not just the well dressed man that wear loafers with suits. For every well dressed man with loafers there are 20 slobs, men with ill fitting jackets of the wrong fabrics, ill fitting pants, the wrong shirts, and the wrong ties. Conceptually, guilt by association is politically incorrect, but that's the way the mind works.


I liked your whole post Mr Kirshner, but for me the above is the core reason I will not adopt this look and dislike it generally.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Arkirshner, admittedly i am guilty of the loafer with suit combo, but here in Memphis loafers with suits is more prevalent than suits with oxfords... i do have to disagree with this statement in association to this argument:



arkirshner said:


> First, it is not just the well dressed man that wear loafers with suits. For every well dressed man with loafers there are 20 slobs, men with ill fitting jackets of the wrong fabrics, ill fitting pants, the wrong shirts, and the wrong ties.


you could theoretically substitute the word "loafer" for _anything_, and the statement would still be true, it does not apply only to loafers...


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## srmd22 (Jun 30, 2009)

It does seem like there is a big difference in opinion between England and the U.S. Shortly after finding this forum, I became averse to loafers with suits, and actually like bals/oxfords, mostly. Occasionally bluchers/derbies with a lighter suit. Actually, I generally prefer bals and bluchers with casual dress - meaning chinos, jeans, OCBD (not shorts, lol), as well. But I do have some vestiges of loafers from before my AAAC days, so I keep them in the rotation. My boat shoes are gathering dust, these days.

There, that should help obfuscate things for the OP.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

When I see someone wearing loafers with a suit my first thought is don't you own some lace up shoes?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

salgy said:


> Arkirshner, admittedly i am guilty of the loafer with suit combo, but here in Memphis loafers with suits is more prevalent than suits with oxfords... i do have to disagree with this statement in association to this argument:
> 
> you could theoretically substitute the word "loafer" for _anything_, and the statement would still be true, it does not apply only to loafers...


This is not a majority vote issue, if it was we'd all be wearing athletic shoes. There is some truth in your substitution argument, but only some. For every well dressed man wearing black toe bals there will not be 20 slobs with bals.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

arkirshner said:


> For every well dressed man wearing black toe bals there will not be 20 slobs with bals.


no, but for every well dressed man wearing black toe bals there will be 20 slobs, men with ill fitting jackets of the wrong fabrics, ill fitting pants, the wrong shirts, and the wrong ties


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Balfour said:


> The Atlantic yawns pretty big over the loafers thing, I suspect.
> 
> I was interested by this comment. A Mantonism that I've never quite got my head around is his objection to bals aka oxfords with an odd jacket. He holds that view very strongly, but I've never seen the objection (especially if the shoe has some broguing). Is it commonly accepted as appropriate by discerning people on your side of the Pond? (I speak as someone - like arkirshner - who has a lot of respect for Mr. Anton.)


His view has a certain symmetry to it. Bals with suits, loafers with odd jackets, bluchers, (as a group), going with either. Of course he is no martinet, I recall him saying to someone who proposed a dressy loafer with a suit, "don't let my irrational prejudices stop you." My personal opinion is that with any odd jacket ensemble, before one puts on a pair of oxfords, there is always a blucher or loafer that is an even better choice.
Of course, if a man's shoe wardrobe does not have that better choice blucher or loafer, he will go with the best choice among his oxfords.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Just kidding...


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

salgy said:


> no, but for every well dressed man wearing black toe bals there will be 20 slobs, men with ill fitting jackets of the wrong fabrics, ill fitting pants, the wrong shirts, and the wrong ties


You are quite right.

In the post you quoted I failed to type a couple words and did not convey what I wanted to say. Moreover, in typing my response to your post I did not realize that I misspoke in my first prior. Let me start over. What I wanted to convey is that in the universe of men wearing loafers with suits, 1 will look good and 20 will not. In the universe of men wearing black cap toe bals 1 will look good but far fewer than 20 will look bad. In fact black cap toe bals are not that common and I venture to say that the majority of men wearing them look good.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JBierly said:


> When I see someone wearing loafers with a suit my first thought is don't you own some lace up shoes?


Exactly what I think, "don't you own some proper shoes"


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Absolutely not for me. 

Loafers are casual a lounge suit is not. 

All of the arguments to support the wearing of loafers with a suit could be equally applied to the wearing of trainers (sneakers). And they would still be wrong. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Malloy*

Some years ago the author of How to Dress for Success emphasized that one way to dress for success was to imitate the Northeastern establishment. One of his recommendations was loafers with suits. Mr. Malloy has since recanted somewhat his prescription (of imitating Ivy League style, not of wearing loafers with suits) but the citation is, I believe pertinant for the present discussion. These are the people whom Mr. Petrik described.

Regardless of what one's personal opinon of loafers might be they are clearly appropriately worn with suits in many establishment corporate and business settings. Of course if you don't like loafers there is no need to wear them.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## srmd22 (Jun 30, 2009)

salgy said:


> no, but for every well dressed man wearing black toe bals *there will be 20 slobs, men with ill fitting jackets of the wrong fabrics, ill fitting pants, the wrong shirts, and the wrong ties*


Lol my ears are burning.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Gurdon said:


> Some years ago the author of How to Dress for Success emphasized that one way to dress for success was to imitate the Northeastern establishment. One of his recommendations was loafers with suits. Mr. Malloy has since recanted somewhat his prescription (of imitating Ivy League style, not of wearing loafers with suits) but the citation is, I believe pertinant for the present discussion. These are the people whom Mr. Petrik described.
> 
> Regardless of what one's personal opinon of loafers might be they are clearly appropriately worn with suits in many establishment corporate and business settings. Of course if you don't like loafers there is no need to wear them.
> 
> ...


Thank you. Exactly right IMO.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Loafers with a suit? Twenty years ago, I would have said, "No problem." 

A decade ago, I would have said, "How childish! I wear wingtips with my suits." 

Today, I say, "Wear a balmoral captoe (preferably black) and be done with it already." 

My opinion may change when I'm retired, but this is my current evolved position in the suit-shoe debate.

You should feel free to make your own way through this dilemma, and not let others (unduely) influence your choice. It's actually more fun that way.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

arkirshner said:


> You are quite right.
> 
> In the post you quoted I failed to type a couple words and did not convey what I wanted to say. Moreover, in typing my response to your post I did not realize that I misspoke in my first prior. Let me start over. What I wanted to convey is that in the universe of men wearing loafers with suits, 1 will look good and 20 will not. In the universe of men wearing black cap toe bals 1 will look good but far fewer than 20 will look bad. In fact black cap toe bals are not that common and I venture to say that the majority of men wearing them look good.


^ I am in agreement to the revised statement!


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## Guyute82 (Nov 20, 2009)

A definite no for business, but probably ok for pleasure/travel.


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