# Rock Stars Die Young



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

An actual study was needed???


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Wow.



CNN said:


> The average age of death was 42 for North American stars and 35 for European stars.


If one was a cynic, one might say that this seems to be a perfectly deserved divine retribution for the insult these chaps are throwing at our civilization. Of course I'm not a cynic. 

Cheers,
A.


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

JRR said:


> An acutal study was needed???


Astounding. Simply astounding.

What next?

"Placing a gun to one's head and pulling the trigger frequently results in severe head injuries."

"Driving while intoxicated tends to cause traffic accidents."

"Death rate stubbornly remains at 100%, scientists say."

Geoff


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Geoff Gander said:


> "Placing a gun to one's head and pulling the trigger frequently results in severe head injuries."


Sounds like a governmenth health warning.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Did this come from the Dept of the Obvious!?

Brian


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Sometimes dying young is a sound business strategy. To wit...Kurt Cobain and Jim Morrison. Vastly overrated artists but, since they died young in a whirl of drug use, they became icons.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

So many people live past that age, though. I question the validity of the study. 

For one thing, how do you distinguish a "star" from a "non-star"?


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> So many people live past that age, though. I question the validity of the study.
> 
> For one thing, how do you distinguish a "star" from a "non-star"?


Agreed. It's pretty shaky science. Though I will probably open a can of worms with this one, I don't think someone is necessarily a star until they have proven some type of popular "durability" over an extended period of time (say, 10+ years). Van Morrison: star. Oasis: non-stars. Not the greatest of comparisons, I know...but maybe you catch my drift?

I just realized I am the same age as Elvis when he died. Yikes! Bad karma. I better limit my trips to the bathroom (a.k.a. The King's Last Throne) today.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I guess it's kind of a tradeoff, and not necessarily a bad one.

To take my favorite, tragic, example, Janis Joplin. She could have stayed in Port Arthur, Texas, and been unhappy, or she could have gone to San Francisco and become the person she was supposed to be, even though we know what was at the end of that road.

It makes me sad to think about her loss, but I don't second guess her choice.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

jackmccullough said:


> To take my favorite, tragic, example, Janis Joplin. She could have stayed in Port Arthur, Texas, and been unhappy, or she could have gone to San Francisco and become the person she was supposed to be, even though we know what was at the end of that road. It makes me sad to think about her loss, but I don't second guess her choice.


_Freedoms just another word for nothin left to lose_.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> To take my favorite, tragic, example, Janis Joplin. She could have stayed in Port Arthur, Texas, and been unhappy, or she could have gone to San Francisco and become the person she was supposed to be, even though we know what was at the end of that road.





wikipedia said:


> She overdosed on heroin at the age of 27 while drunk on cocktails she had finished approximately an hour earlier at Barney's Beanery in West Hollywood. It is said that she purchased the heroin on Saturday afternoon in an effort to console herself when her boyfriend Seth failed to arrive for a scheduled date. [16]


You wouldn't consider this an indicator for happyness in life, would you?


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

No, and I certainly don't agree with all her life choices, but it sometimes seems that the art and the tragic life choices are a package deal.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

jackmccullough said:


> No, and I certainly don't agree with all her life choices, but it sometimes seems that the art and the tragic life choices are a package deal.


History has proven that many seriously talented people are seriously flawed...and those flaws make them easy targets for addiction (in all its forms).


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

TMMKC said:


> History has proven that many seriously talented people are seriously flawed...and those flaws make them easy targets for addiction (in all its forms).


The problem is that these "artists" are modern mass idols. Quite a few people want to have a lifestyle like them, to be like them. That's how drugs, promiscuity etc. came into the midst of society... which I think is totally deplorable.

Rock stars are the only group of people I truly detest.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Albert said:


> The problem is that these "artists" are modern mass idols. Quite a few people want to have a lifestyle like them, to be like them. That's how drugs, promiscuity etc. came into the midst of society... which I think is totally deplorable.
> 
> Rock stars are the only group of people I truly detest.


+1, though I would add that The Music Industry created these little monsters.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Albert,

You might want to add these guys to your hate list:

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/06/world/europe/06germany.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Karl


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Albert,
> 
> You might want to add these guys to your hate list:
> 
> ...


Karl,

I agree with your sentiment. However, you know my position towards radical Islam. From my point of view, radical Islam is a damn nuisance and the people who condone it should be rendered harmless. I don't hate them. I just want them to stop bothering the civilized world for good.

(did I come across a bit harsh towards our esteemed rock stars? )

Cheers,
A.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Albert said:


> Karl,
> 
> I agree with your sentiment. However, you know my position towards radical Islam. From my point of view, radical Islam is a damn nuisance and the people who condone it should be rendered harmless. I don't hate them. I just want them to stop bothering the civilized world for good.
> 
> ...


+1 (you did come off as harsh but even Maria Callas had her flaws and faults)


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

TMMKC said:


> To wit...Kurt Cobain... Vastly overrated artists.


Wow, not sure I agree with you there, but to each their own..


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Here's another "study" worthy of the highest academic awards...

LOL

https://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=OWY0MzQ5YzBlMDE2ZDU2YWI3ZmE3ZTVhYzZmM2FmNmQ=


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Albert,

You put me in an awkward position bc without Rock Stars would the world have ever known the great Nena (nee Gabriele Susanne Kerner)? Admit it Albert, even you find 99 Luftballoons a catchy tune!

Karl


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Then we have those who, perhaps improbably, complicate the study's findings. I'm thinking of those older stars like Jagger/Richards, Bowie, McCartney, Clapton.

All still breathing. 

Having been in several working bands (not cover/wedding groups) and having been around many other professional bands, I can say that the biggest factor in bringing down those who are inclined to fall down includes the allure of the stereotype: sex, drugs and rock and roll. The industry both creates and attracts those with a proclivity to self destruction. We like our idols, sure, but we like them better when they're at least partially hollow and fragile. 

Doesn't there seem to be an odd love/hate relationship with respect to how we regard our stars, musical or otherwise, in pop culture? We are quick (too quick) to elevate them, but equally quick (or quicker) to kick dirt on them when they slip. 

I'm sure there are dissertations and books written on this somewhere.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> You put me in an awkward position bc without Rock Stars would the world have ever known the great Nena (nee Gabriele Susanne Kerner)? Admit it Albert, even you find 99 Luftballoons a catchy tune!


O dear. Did you know that they nearly hospitalised me after I had listened to Phil Collins for one day?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Albert,

What did the doctor tell you? Take two Gilbert and Sullivans and call me in the morning?

Karl


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

BertieW said:


> I'm thinking of those older stars like Jagger/Richards, Bowie, McCartney, Clapton.
> 
> All still breathing.


But only just.

Pity that this Heather Mills individual didn't do a proper job á la Medici.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Bertie: I think the jury is out on if Keith Richards is still breathing...personally, I think he's been dead for five years and it's just that no one has forwarded him the memo on it.

Do not forget all the really great, top echelon of stars that fade out of the public life too, and seem to keep on living. I am thinking of Robert Plant, Jimmy Page, Richie Blackmore, Ray Manzarik types here. These are people that it can be said really had/have the muse's flame burning brightly, the type that is usually associated with burn out and early death.

Then you have the people that seem to be aging quite well and are still seen on at least a semi-regular basis, like Bowie, Peter Gabriel (which if you have not checked out his early years with Genesis, you are missing something), Roger Daltry, etc.

I think we just pay attention more to those that die early. Forever young.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I agree. The one or two idiots that finish themselves off per year get a lot of publicity and make the problem seem to be a lot worse than it really is.

I suppose that being on top and not being able to handle the nearly inevitable loss of at least some popularity might be hard for some.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Albert,
> 
> What did the doctor tell you? Take two Gilbert and Sullivans and call me in the morning?
> 
> Karl


Karl,

If you ever get into a muddle like this, there is nothing as efficient as a Viennese operetta. Aaaaah, the merry tunes of Franz Lehár... ...as sweet and sugary as an Austrian meringue. 

Cheers,
A.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I miss Mozart and forever wonder what might have been.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I agree. The one or two idiots that finish themselves off per year get a lot of publicity and make the problem seem to be a lot worse than it really is.
> 
> I suppose that being on top and not being able to handle the nearly inevitable loss of at least some popularity might be hard for some.


forsbergacct,

What "problem"? It's a lifestyle choice! 

By the way, I don't know any modern-time music star that isn't totally drug addicted or otherwise off his rocker. It might be quite interesting to examine the fatality rates of the "Robbie Williams generation" in a few years from now.

Cheers,
A.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

What do you consider "modern time" Albert?


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> What do you consider "modern time" Albert?


Really depends on the matter. In general, I would say anything since around 1955. Even if you take a slightly later point, the hippie movement surely marks the main moral hazard that led to the current form of society as we know it.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Albert,

Its been all downhill since the French Revolution.................


Karl


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Albert,
> 
> Its been all downhill since the French Revolution.................
> 
> Karl


Karl,

Rather since U.S. independence, I say. 

Cheers,
A.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Albert,

Maybe so.....just think, had the US remained a British colony, you with your Anglophilic ways, might very well be the Duke of Ohio or Earl of Kansas today!

Karl


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Albert said:


> forsbergacct,
> 
> What "problem"? It's a lifestyle choice!
> 
> ...


How many do you know? I disagree that they are all like this. That's a gross overstatement. I know a good number of people, including some who would be considered well-known artists, who are actually down-to-earth sorts without any substance abuse problems. Some of them have been performing for 25 years and have /never/ taken more than a beer or two at a time, sometimes not even that.

So it really depends on where the light is shined. If you're talking Cobain, well, sure. But you're always going to find the extremes, and those sell papers and product.

And it's not just music. Nietszche, for one, was off his rocker too.

Maybe the question is can we extract value and meaning, in some way, from what these people do? Or, in your view, is it all so much rubbish always?

And for the record: I'm no Cobain fan per se. Biber's more my man.


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

Albert said:


> The problem is that these "artists" are modern mass idols. Quite a few people want to have a lifestyle like them, to be like them. That's how drugs, promiscuity etc. came into the midst of society... which I think is totally deplorable.


+1

At the same time, however, I would think we could find examples throughout the ages of social commentators warning the public at large about the perils of imitating the popular figures of the day. As I recall, Shakespeare and his fellow playwrights were denounced for being immoral, and encouraging the masses to fritter away their time watching plays - which at the time was something no respectable person would have been caught doing.

Lord only knows who our children will be looking askance at 20 years from now.

Geoff


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Albert said:


> Really depends on the matter. In general, I would say anything since around 1955. Even if you take a slightly later point, the hippie movement surely marks the main moral hazard that led to the current form of society as we know it.


Oh then, there's been a large number of pretty big names that either never really got out of hand with the drugs and drinking or reformed. Aerosmith is a good one for the "reformed" category, heck, they did it before rehab was cool. People like Sting and the U2 boys never seem to have had much problems and between The Police and U2 you have the two hugest bands of the late 70s and most of the 80s.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Albert said:


> That's how drugs, promiscuity etc. came into the midst of society... which I think is totally deplorable.
> 
> Rock stars are the only group of people I truly detest.


So all those generations of alcoholics that I descended from somehow got the idea to abuse drugs from future rock stars.

Thanks for enlightening me on this point.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

BertieW said:


> How many do you know? I disagree that they are all like this. That's a gross overstatement. I know a good number of people, including some who would be considered well-known artists, who are actually down-to-earth sorts without any substance abuse problems. Some of them have been performing for 25 years and have /never/ taken more than a beer or two at a time, sometimes not even that.


Bertie,

I'm happy to take your word for it as I only know the sort of Robbie Williams, Britney Spears, Eminem, Madonna and Marilyn Manson. As I personally do not care for modern music very much, those are the only ones that I can remember from the papers...



> And it's not just music. Nietszche, for one, was off his rocker too.


No doubt about that. But was he a mass idol? Hardly so. Did he influence thinking? Yes he did. And it resulted in one of the darkest times in Europe...



> Maybe the question is can we extract value and meaning, in some way, from what these people do? Or, in your view, is it all so much rubbish always?


I know that development of tastes and society doesn't stop. But I can't. Maybe I wouldn't be able to appreciate the older and finer things if there weren't so many Britney Spears and Robbie Williams types around.

Cheers,
A.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> So all those generations of alcoholics that I descended from somehow got the idea to abuse drugs from future rock stars.
> 
> Thanks for enlightening me on this point.


I'm talking about hard drugs, like heroine etc.

You can drink a beer without becoming a drug addict. You can't smoke a crack pipe without becoming _not_ addicted (true for most hard drugs, maybe apart from cocaine). That's a slight and crucial difference, because the former allows you to correct your substance behaviour up to some point while the latter doesn't.

Besides, I think that a gentleman can only be either a tee-totaller or an alcoholic. I prefer to float between the two poles depending of the day of the week. 

Cheers,
A.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Oh then, there's been a large number of pretty big names that either never really got out of hand with the drugs and drinking or reformed. Aerosmith is a good one for the "reformed" category, heck, they did it before rehab was cool. People like Sting and the U2 boys never seem to have had much problems and between The Police and U2 you have the two hugest bands of the late 70s and most of the 80s.


Bono is the devil.

I am being serious here.

(and I'm not a crackpot)


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Albert said:


> Bono is the devil.
> 
> I am being serious here.
> 
> (and I'm not a crackpot)


Granted, he's overrated, overexposed and annoying, but I don't know if I'd catagorize him as the "devil"...regardless of what USA Today, that _"esteemed" _(cough...ahem) news gathering organization says:https://www.usatoday.com/news/top25-influential.htm.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Albert said:


> I'm talking about hard drugs, like heroine etc.


Opioid abuse did not start with the 20th century! There were certainly addicts of hard core substances prior to 1955. Remember the Green Fairy.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

You can experiment with those drugs without becoming addicted. However, it is not something I would recommend to anyone. The drugs are really seductive and can really take over your life.

There are things I have tried once, but will never do again for that reason. Now, at my age, I would never play with fire like that.

The people who are into drugs make interesting headlines so they are publicized. There are plenty of musicians who are not alcoholic, drug-addicted life-wasters, though.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Opioid abuse did not start with the 20th century! There were certainly addicts of hard core substances prior to 1955. Remember the Green Fairy.


Fully agree. Who hasn't read about opium dens in Victorian times etc.

However, when did it really infiltrate popular culture? During and shortly before the hippie movement, I would say.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Albert said:


> Fully agree. Who hasn't read about opium dens in Victorian times etc.
> 
> However, when did it really infiltrate popular culture? During and shortly before the hippie movement, I would say.


Damn hippies. I blame the Beatniks. Charlie Parker, Billie Holiday and Dylan Thomas all had some nice pre-Hippie addiction problems.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> You can experiment with those drugs without becoming addicted. However, it is not something I would recommend to anyone. The drugs are really seductive and can really take over your life.
> 
> There are things I have tried once, but will never do again for that reason. Now, at my age, I would never play with fire like that.


forsbergacct,

I personally didn't do that but my fraternity mentor actually had a few experiments with LSD (he wanted to do an action replay of Ernst Jünger's drug experiments). He told me that I should rather stay away from it. And LSD is one of the lesser harmful drugs, in terms of addictiveness.



forsbergacct said:


> The people who are into drugs make interesting headlines so they are publicized. There are plenty of musicians who are not alcoholic, drug-addicted life-wasters, though.


O.K., lets try to have an anecdotical look at it. Who are, in your opinion, the 10 or 15 most widely known and admired music stars of today (i.e. still issuing new songs etc.)?

Cheers,
A.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

TMMKC said:


> Damn hippies. I blame the Beatniks. Charlie Parker, Billie Holiday and Dylan Thomas all had some nice pre-Hippie addiction problems.


Quite so! But that's a totally different cup of tea. See my word above about substance abuse as a gentleman. Either tea-totaller or alcoholic. Or both.

Cheers,
A.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

In shame, I have to admit that at age 51, I don't follow young people's music much and really can't give you a good answer to "Who's on top, now?"


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

And opera stars die old?



Hopefully Cecilia Bartoli will still be in good form when I manage to see. Have seen Renee Fleming and Kathleen Battle already.

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Albert said:


> Fully agree. Who hasn't read about opium dens in Victorian times etc.
> 
> However, when did it really infiltrate popular culture? During and shortly before the hippie movement, I would say.


I have to somewhat disagree again. The Green Fairy was in much of popular culture at one time. It's almost total international ban is what rooted it out. I have even read stories about how the youth of that generation was being lost, etc.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

Anyone ever try real absinthe? Had some once in Prague and was very disappointed, no metaphysical breakthroughs or creative outpourings ensued.

Karl


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> Anyone ever try real absinthe? Had some once in Prague and was very disappointed, no metaphysical breakthroughs or creative outpourings ensued.
> 
> Karl


Karl,

Wrong dosage, I think. You have to drink a liter or so. Then you should be doing fine. (that's my experience)

Cheers,
A.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> Anyone ever try real absinthe? Had some once in Prague and was very disappointed, no metaphysical breakthroughs or creative outpourings ensued.
> 
> Karl


Karl:

Not to disparge the Czechs, but what passes there for the Green Lady is roundly rejected by people that appreciate the true elixir. French and Swiss absinthe was and is what someone looking for the true experience should drink. Thujone is the component of wormwood that holds the keys to all the mysteries of the drink. Un Emille is a great one to try from France, the Swiss "La Bleue" is also one I have some knowledge of. One version is with a bit of pine resin added; very nice. Keep in mind it is about 80% ETOH by volume when drinking it and whatever you do, please do not emulate Johnny Depp in some Goth movie where he lit he sugar cube on fire and apparently is now widely copied.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> Anyone ever try real absinthe? Had some once in Prague and was very disappointed, no metaphysical breakthroughs or creative outpourings ensued.
> 
> Karl


"Often called Bohemian-style, Czech-style, anise-free absinthe or just absinth (without the 'e'), it is best described as a wormwood bitters and is produced mainly in the Czech Republic where it gets its Bohemian and Czech designations, although not all absinthe from the Czech Republic is Bohemian style. It contains little to no anise, fennel or other herbs normally found in traditional absinthe that was popular in the 19th century, and is often more bitter from chemicals such as absinthine. Often the only similarities with its traditional counterpart are the use of wormwood and a high alcohol content; for all intents and purposes, it should be considered a completely different product."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe

The article mentions different herbs used to infuse the wormwood liquor, one of which (rarely) is cannabis. Short of the addition of a known psychoactive chemical such as THC, absinthe is simply overhyped and usually overpriced liquor.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> In shame, I have to admit that at age 51, I don't follow young people's music much and really can't give you a good answer to "Who's on top, now?"


O.K., here are the artists of the current .

1. Fergie -> admitted repeated drugs and sex sprees

2. Fabulous -> gangsta rapper. Repeatedly arrested for posession of unlicensed, armed guns etc.

3. Timbaland -> another one of those fellows

4. T-Pain -> and another one

5. Plies -> another rapper. Shot a few guys and had unlicenced weapons. No big deal

etc. etc. etc.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

So much for the rappers. 

Is absinthe a type of alcohol? I have never experienced it.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Albert said:


> O.K., here are the artists of the current .
> 
> 1. Fergie -> admitted repeated drugs and sex sprees


Whoa! Sex sprees? Impressive...:icon_smile_wink:


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> So much for the rappers.
> 
> Is absinthe a type of alcohol? I have never experienced it.


Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe. I hear it drove people to insanity.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Thank you for the link.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

TMMKC said:


> Whoa! Sex sprees? Impressive...:icon_smile_wink:


Maybe that's why she looks so sucked out.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Albert said:


> Maybe that's why she looks so sucked out.


There is SOOOO much I could say, but "forum decorum" does not permit it.:icon_smile_big:

Fergie needs to go back to the BEP and be done with it. She's a beautiful woman but the partying is taking its toll.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> Anyone ever try real absinthe? Had some once in Prague and was very disappointed, no metaphysical breakthroughs or creative outpourings ensued.
> 
> Karl


I've had Czech absinthe. It had a nasty, bitter taste. I couldn't tell you if it had any strange effects or not; I was pretty drunk at the time from all the Ouzo we had been drinking. The owner of a local bar, who was a friend of ours, poured us a glass from his "special bottle" one night. He brought it back with him when he went to visit his relatives in the Czech Republic. I don't remember much about it except that I had only heard about absinthe from Hemingway's writings, and it didn't go down well....although that might have been from the Ouzo. I wouldn't mind trying the stuff Wayfarer mentioned.

-is it just me, or is the word of the week Czech?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I guess alcohol and drug abuse are more likely a cause of death for early rock stars.The business is just overwhelming so drinking and drugging are their only hopes.


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