# Communist Chic



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

This had been covered before months ago but here is a great article on the subject.

https://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/04/30/communist_chic/

_Communist chic
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | April 30, 2006

IN JANUARY 2005, Britain's Prince Harry attended a birthday party dressed as a Nazi. When the London Sun published a picture of the prince in his German desert uniform and swastika armband, it triggered widespread outrage and disgust. In scathing editorials, Harry was condemned as an ignorant and insensitive clod; months later, he was still apologizing for his tasteless costume. ''It was a very stupid thing to do," he said in September. ''I've learnt my lesson."

For a more recent example of totalitarian fashion, consider Tim Vincent, the New York correspondent for NBC's entertainment newsmagazine, ''Access Hollywood." Twice in the last few weeks, Vincent has introduced stories about upcoming movies while sporting an open jacket over a bright red T-shirt -- on which, clearly outlined in gold, was a large red star and a hammer-and-sickle: the international emblems of totalitarian communism.

And what was the public reaction to seeing those icons of cruelty and death turned into the latest yuppie style? Was there a furor? Moral outrage? Blistering editorials?

None of the above.

Enter ''hammer and sickle" into a shopping search engine, and up pop dozens of products adorned with the Marxist brand -- T-shirts and ski caps, bracelet charms and keychains, posters of Lenin and ''Soviet Kremlin Stainless Steel Flasks."

The glamorization of communism is widespread. On West 4th Street in Manhattan, the popular KGB Bar is known for its literary readings and Soviet propaganda posters. In Los Angeles, the La La Ling boutique sells baby clothing emblazoned with the face of Che Guevara, Fidel Castro's notorious henchman. At the House of Mao, a popular eatery in Singapore, waiters in Chinese army uniforms serve Long March Chicken, and a giant picture of Mao Zedong dominates one wall.

What can explain such ''communist chic?" How can people who wouldn't dream of drinking in a pub called Gestapo cheerfully hang out at the KGB Bar? If the swastika is an undisputed symbol of unspeakable evil, can the hammer-and-sickle and other emblems of communism be anything less?

Between 1933 and 1945, Adolf Hitler's Nazis slaughtered some 21 million people, but the communist nightmare has lasted far longer and its death toll is far, far higher. Since 1917, communist regimes have sent more than 100 million victims to their graves -- and in places like North Korea, the deaths continue to this day. The historian R.J. Rummel, an expert on genocide and government mass murder, estimates that the Soviet Union alone annihilated nearly 62 million people: ''Old and young, healthy and sick, men and women, even infants and the infirm, were killed in cold blood. They were not combatants in civil war or rebellions; they were not criminals. Indeed, nearly all were guilty of . . . nothing."

Yet communism rarely evokes the instinctive loathing that Nazism does. Prince Harry's swastika was way over the line, but Tim Vincent's hammer-and-sickle was kitschy and cool. Why?

Several reasons suggest themselves.

One is that in the war to defeat Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union fought with the Allies. World War II eventually gave way to the long-drawn Cold War, but America's alliance with Moscow left in many minds the belief that when it counted most, the communists were on our side.

Moreover, the Nazis didn't camouflage their hatefulness. Their rhetoric made only too clear that they loathed Jews and other ''subhumans" and believed an Aryan master race was destined to rule all others. By contrast, communist movements typically masked their ruthlessness with appealing talk of peace, equality, and an end to exploitation. Partly as a result, the myth persists to this day that communism is really a noble system that has never been properly implemented.

Third, the excesses of Joseph McCarthy hurt honest anticommunism. In the backlash to McCarthyism, many journalists and intellectuals came to dismiss any strong stand against the communists as ''Red baiting," and conscientious liberals found it increasingly difficult to take a vocal anti-Soviet stand.

But perhaps the strongest explanation is the simplest: visibility. Ever since the end of World War II, when photographers entered the death camps and recorded what they found, the world has had indelible images of the Nazi crimes. But no army ever liberated the Soviet Gulag or halted the Maoist massacres. If there are photos or films of those atrocities, few of us have ever seen them. The victims of communism have tended to be invisible -- and suffering that isn't seen is suffering most people don't think about.

''Communist chic?" The blood of 100 million victims cries out from the ground. To wear the symbols of their killers is no fashion statement, but the ultimate in bad taste._


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Jacoby is a right wing hack. His opinions on communism and the Soviet Union are tiresome and stupid.

Anyone who dismisses communism as totalitarianism obviously understands neither.

I personally own a replica CCCP soccer shirt. Red, obviously, with Oleg Blokhin's #11 on the back. Haven't worn it in years mind you.

As for Che being Fidel's "notorious henchman", beyond laughable.

The Soviet Union and the KGB are gone. Jeff needs to lighten up a litle. And, judging by his bio pic, get a decent shave.

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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Right-thinking Americans have been trying for decades to understand the reverence that the American left has for "Uncle Joe" Stalin, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, and Mao Tsetung. Put Mao Tsetung in a Google search and the first page that pops up says he "stood with the poor people of the world and showed them the path to real liberation," and that his Cultural Revolution spread "truth to every corner of the world." It's amazing that anyone would try to paste a smiley face over Mao's record of carnage, but that's comsymps for you. Bush=Hitler, but Mao and Stalin get a pass. Bush is eroding our civil liberties, never mind that smelly unkempt college kids can take to the streets carrying anti-Bush posters at every opportunity. But Fidel Castro, who would lock them up pronto for protesting against his government, gets praised for his record on the environment. College kids since the 1960s have thought it was cool to have Che Guevara posters in their rooms and wear his image on buttons and t-shirts.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

gmac, are you a Communist?


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

I'm not a communist, no. Why, are you?

I've got a great respect for the achievements of the Soviet Union, specifically the superhuman efforts and sacrifice made by her people in defeating the Nazis but also the industrial and scientific advances made during the Soviet era. Bear in mind that the first satellite and man in orbit were both Soviet.

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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gmac,

I tell you what, why don't you go to Bratislava in Slovakia and meet with my family there and tell them that having being sent to prison for being capitalists (my great-grandfather had the honor of being jailed by both the Nazis and the Communists), having their assets seized in 1949 and being barred from leaving (expect for those that defected after 68) the CSSR until 1989 did not constitute a Communist totalitarian regime. I wonder if you have spent any time spent in Eastern Europe and the FSU and if you really understand how evil Communism was and how its dubious legacy still infects society there. 

Karl


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Anecdotal crap. C'mon Karl, you can surely do better than making up stories about grandpappy back in the old country?

Yes, I have spent time in eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Again, to conflate communism with totalitarianism shows a deep misunderstanding of both.

The fact is that communism was still born in the USSR due to the civil war, the invasion by the western powers and the early death of Lenin. Stalin's rise was the tragedy of the Soviet Union.



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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Something tells me that this is going to be another one of _those_ threads.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gmac,

Really, how dare you. Making up stories? I can prove what I have written is truthful, so since I doubt you are man enough to apologize would you care to make a wager as to whether I making up a story or not? Pick anyone you like as a neutral judge, lets see if you have any honor at all. Insult me, insult my ideas but do not insult my family.

Karl


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Really, how dare you.


Oh get over yourself. The insult is aimed directly at you. Deal with it.



> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Making up stories? I can prove what I have written is truthful, so since I doubt you are man enough to apologize would you care to make a wager as to whether I making up a story or not? Pick anyone you like as a neutral judge, lets see if you have any honor at all. Insult me, insult my ideas but do not insult my family.


OK, I bet you a million dollars that you're talking crap.

Oh wait, this is an internet forum where everyone can claim anything they want.

Make it a billion dollars......

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## hopkins_student (Jun 25, 2004)

Don't worry Karl, you're at least the second person today he's accused of lying after providing anecdotal evidence that doesn't jive with his view of the world.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gmac,

Either be a man or stop posting. Why not let a neutral source decide, since my great-grandfather was rehabilited by the post communist government of Czechoslovakia and the family's property was returned in 1991 its a matter of public record. So either apologize or lets make a real wager. I guess there is the third option - that you reveal yourself to this message board to be a lying coward. But I am willing to extend you the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt.

Karl


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by hopkins_student_
> 
> Don't worry Karl, you're at least the second person today he's accused of lying after providing anecdotal evidence that doesn't jive with his view of the world.


Wait. You think that phoney story provided by FlatSix was true?

Say it ain't so Joe!

C'mon, it was obviously crap. A child could see that.

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## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> Anecdotal crap. C'mon Karl, you can surely do better than making up stories about grandpappy back in the old country?
> 
> ...


When there are 50 million or more people with simelar stories to Karl's grandfather, it's no longer an anecdote. What happened in the USSR this century was one of the scariest and evilest acts in human history. It's frightening that ignorant fools today feel comfortable doning the symbols of that evil empire on their clothes. Do you wear the hammer and cycle, Gmac?

Communism was indeed stillborn in the USSR, but not for the reasons you listed. The main reason is that a substantial proletariat never even existed in Russia!

Early death of the noble Lenin? Phoey. Lenin had already fully established the totalitarian machinery before Stalin took the helm.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Alright Karl, I'm sorry I said that you were making it up about grandpappy.

Happy now?

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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by PennGlock_
> Do you wear the hammer and cycle, Gmac?


Not yet but I love the concept!

Does the bike go above or below the hammer?

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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by PennGlock_
> What happened in the USSR this century was one of the scariest and evilest acts in human history.


I'm not sure that anything happened this century in the Soviet Union, scary, evil or otherwise, since it ceased to exist in 1991.

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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> that you reveal yourself to this message board to be a lying coward.


I think most of them have probably worked this out already Karl. You're a bit slow on the uptake, no?

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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gmac,

Actually it was my great-grandfather, Karel Blaha. My grandfather and my grandmother and father came to the US in 1952 as DPs (displaced persons)because due to the Communist takeover of Czechoslovakia my grandfather, who had served in the Czech squadron of the RAF during WW2, was technically stateless. I could tell you more about my family and how they suffered under Communism but I doubt you care. PennGlock is correct, there are millions of other stories similiar to that of my family many much worse.

Gmac, I have no idea of whether your apology is sincere but don't accuse me of lying.

JLPWCXIII - I don't know if this is one of "those" threads but how would you feel if you related something about your family, something that was rather painful, and you were called a liar? 

Karl


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## Skrip (Apr 12, 2006)

Read Hannah Arendt's *The Origins of Totalitarianism* where she discusses the issue of the Soviet Union and its correlation to the Nazi regime it defeated.

Distilled, they are very much similar.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> 'The blood of 100 million victims cries out from the ground. To wear the symbols of their killers is no fashion statement, but the ultimate in bad taste.[/i]


By this logic the following emblems should not be worn:

Eagles (the symbol of empire).
The red cross (massacres committed during the crusades).
Crowns (the symbol of absolute monarchy).
Laurels (Roman wars, slavery, etc.).
Knights in armour and their accessories - shields, helmets, plumes, etc. (feudalism - serfdom, wars).
Heraldic devices in general and all flags are doubtful - bloody wars have been fought under their colours.
Lions are doubtful.
Weaponry in general - swords, lances, daggers, bows and arrows (except when carried by Cupid).
All ancient Greek, Phoenician, Egyptian, Persian or Babylonian emblems are probably best avoided, of course (societies based on slavery, wars of conquest).


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## GentleCheetah (Oct 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Gmac,
> 
> ...


Good one. Same to GMac from me. This time, to China instead. Of course, without the communists displacing my parents from their land and properties, I would never have been born ...

Don't get me wrong. The communist China treated me pretty well, because I grew up in it and because they needed to recruit me to be an examplary leader of my fellow students. But my both parents despised the system so much that they would never go back to visit. My mother kept telling me that I was brought up in the "new" system with a "clean" slate and that I never had to suffer as much as she did. Not only did they publicly paraded my grand father, they also threw my father in jail (when he was 12) to extort money from my grand father. It was a miracle that their lives were spared.

I don't like the government. I don't like the majority of Chinese youth brought up under the communist system.

I wish this f***ing Chinese economic miracle goes kaput.

The Gentle Cheetah


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## Vladimir Berkov (Apr 19, 2005)

I think the question is not whether the symbol in the past represented something evil, but whether it does now. 

For example, nobody connects a red cross with the Hospitaliers, they would likely connect it with, well, the International Red Cross.

The hammer and sickle, red star, pictures of Mao and Che etc are different. People know what these things stand for and they wear them either in spite of or because of that knowledge. 

There is absolutely no substantive difference between the hammer and sickle and the swastika. Both stand for failed totalitarian governments which left millions of dead human beings in their wake. 

The reason why it is "cool" to wear the commmunist symbols is that leftism taken to its logical conclusion IS totalitarian. FDR differed from Stalin only in degree, not in kind. 

In truth, the Nazis were leftists in many, many ways as well. But in the popular imagination they are held to be "extreme right wing" and thus uncool.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Excellent post, Rich, as always.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I saw an eight-grade female wearing the Che t-shirt. When I expressed surprise to the school's social worker during an interview, she was in turn surprised that I was surprised.

"Communist Chic" says more about the wretched quality of history instruction in the U.S. than anything else.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

I have a few communist items - a mao bob head doll, and a soviet paratroopers watch. the first bought in hong kong, just before it was turned over, the second bought from a russian paratrooper, in eastern germany, during the months when russian troops were stranded in eastern germany after the wall went down. 

I wear the watch, very occasionally. I have always thought of it, not so much as a glorification of communism, but as a "we won, you lost, your women ended up selling their asses and your soldiers ended up selling their watches" type of thing. 

one thing that I am very sorry that I didn't buy - I was once offered a small central asian carpet woven with a picture of stalin. I envisioned having that under my chair in the office and rolling back and forth over his face during the work day.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Globetrotter,

I think you are right to a certain extent - and I actually like the Soviet military watches, I have an old Poljot Soviet Air Force watch that I bought in Russia but I think that there has been in a recent years a kind of rehabilitation of Communism in the eyes of many. One can have a certain interest in Soviet institutions - the sporting teams, the military, film (who doesn't like Moscow Does Not Belive in Tears or The Cranes Are Flying?) without being a apologist for Communism. But the CPSU is an entirely different story as it was the agent of oppression not only for Eastern Europe but for the long suffering peoples of the then Soviet Union. Witness that old Stasi operative Katerina Witt waxing nostalic about the DDR on German television. The problem as I see it that Communism was never made to answer for its crimes. There was never a Nuremburg Trial, with the exception perhaps in Poland where Jaruzelski has been tried. Well, Romania in principle got it right, but it would have been nice to see Nicky and Elena tried before facing a firing squad. Russia is perhaps the greatest victim of this historical amnesia. I would reccommend Catherine Merridale's "Night of Stone" for a better picture of the legacy of violence and memory in Russia.

I think people should be free to wear whatever they like but the willingness of so many to make murderers and a muderous idealogy chic is beyong troubling.

I like the idea of stepping on a carpet of that failed Georgian seminarian. Btw have you read the new Robert Service bio of him yet?


Karl


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Communist atrocities usually happen(ed) in closed societies. We did not see the effects of Stalinism first hand. Nazi atrocities were revealed to the world as a result of the War.

Communism still has some chic appeal to the young and the far left. I don't give either too much credit for common sense.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> 
> I saw an eight-grade female wearing the Che t-shirt. When I expressed surprise to the school's social worker during an interview, she was in turn surprised that I was surprised.
> 
> "Communist Chic" says more about the wretched quality of history instruction in the U.S. than anything else.


An obvious lie! A child could see you were lying about this child! Can you not do better than that?

Merely a jest Patrick, I believe your story. I just wanted to call you a "liar" first 

Warmest regards


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

For a very interesting and often quite humourous look at life in the very epi-center of communist-chic, please enjoy www.zombietime.com

Warmest regards


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Ah, Wayfarer!

I notice that you haven't posted to defend your fellow traveler and his ludicrous story over on the N-word thread. What's up? Had enough?

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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

Gmac, another raspberry to you for all of my relatives who suffered under the communists in Poland. And my wife's relatives who suffered in China.


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## MER (Feb 5, 2006)

Quick points:

We fought the nazi's in the bloodiest war in human history. In that war the communists were on our side.

The hammer and sickle has been seen as a symbol for communism in general and not simply for the USSR. (Don't ask me how that happened)

Also, there was a time in this countries history where we started calling people communists and ruining their lives and I think many Americans are wary of that time period coming back. Attacking communism or the hammer and sickle ended when the Cold War did.

No, communism is seen as little to no threat at the moment and so it has become cool to make fun of it by opening a Mao restaurant and serving "long march" chicken. I think the feeling is that we are so disconnected to those times that it has become safe and fun to play around with its symbols. Where as we are constantly reminded of the atrocities of the Nazis. If you need a bad guy in a movie and you don't have the time to explain why he is a bad guy, you just make him a nazi and the audience fills in the rest. So we've been very successful at keeping the atrocities of the Nazis fresh in the public's mind. However we haven't been as successful doing the same for Mao and Stalin, so those who were not personally affected see it as just some blip in the history book. They think it is about as threatening as Xerxes.

Now, personally I think Stalin and Mao were two of the worst individuals in human history. I've brought this up to some of the people wearing these symbols, it normally went something like:
"you do realize Mao killed millions and filled the lives of his subjects with terror, right?"
"Oh yeah, he was pure evil."
"So why are you wearing his face on your shirt?"
"I dunno, it's funny."

If you look at the new deal it was modeled more closely on that guy in italy, not the one in Russia.

The idea that Lenin was ok but then Stalin ruined it all is pretty commnon in the public's mind, but if you take a closer look at the history you'll find Lenin started all the practices Stalin made famous.

Che, has become the symbol for standing up to the man. To the point where every rally or protest march has to have a Che sign in it. IT's just a rule at this point. It's kind of funny, I'm sure if you asked some of these kids wearing his picture who Che was they would have no idea.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> Ah, Wayfarer!
> 
> I notice that you haven't posted to defend your fellow traveler and his ludicrous story over on the N-word thread. What's up? Had enough?


Why would I defend him? He is capable of doing it himself.

However if by "enough" you mean, was I tired of dealing with a patently nasty person, who maintains he is an enthusiastic socalist yet somehow mysteriously has enough wealth to vacation in Provence on a regular basis, lead an affluent lifestyle, and does not see where *that* surely sounds like an internet embellishment of his real life....well yes, I did indeed have "enough".


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently not. You stuck up for him yesterday, why not today?



> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> However if by "enough" you mean, was I tired of dealing with a patently nasty person, who maintains he is an enthusiastic socalist yet somehow mysteriously has enough wealth to vacation in Provence on a regular basis, lead an affluent lifestyle, and does not see where *that* surely sounds like an internet embellishment of his real life....well yes, I did indeed have "enough".


Which bit do you think I am embellishing? The holiday in Provence (I'm going to stay with my mum!), the "affluent" lifestyle or the enthusiatic socialism. You weren't quite clear there.

I guess the nasty part is QED......

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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> I guess the nasty part is QED......


You see, you do have _some_ insight!

Warmest regards


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> You see, you do have _some_ insight!


I don't think that was ever in doubt.

So, which bit am I supposed to be embellishing? The holidays, the lifestyle or the socialism? I'm intrigued to know..... Obviously there is no way for me to prove any of it so just for fun.

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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Taken in isolation, I would readily believe any of the three listed. Put them all together, and it is somewhat incongruous to me. I have never mentioned this thought, but since you have been so quick to accuse people of lying, I thought I would bring it forward at this point. I could be wrong, I know someone that wears Birkenstocks and is an ex-hippies that drives an 80k SUV with a Dean bumper sticker, however you have never mentioned being a trust fund baby so did not want to assume.

Just for fun, warmest regards


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

That's just it, MER. Education and the popular culture constantly remind us of Hitler's atrocities, but not Mao's or Stalin's. Why would academia and the media have that focus? It's the reason American leftists today wear Che and Mao t-shirts while screaming about the man they call the world's biggest terrorist, known to them as Chimpy McBush*tler.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

No comments yet on www.zombietime.com ? I hope people go visit, some of it is quite funny and 96% of the pictures are work safe, none are porn, merely a little nudity in Berkley.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are you saying, Rich? That all such symbols are equally good and equally bad, and thus occupy a nebulous moral middle ground? Do you care to prove it by wearing a red t-shirt with a giant black swastika next time you're walking the streets of Paris? If anyone questions you, just explain that it's no better or worse than a crown or heraldic device.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Wayfarer,

The site is great - goes to show how crazy the radical left is. I especially loved the picture of a woman who held a "Queers for Palestine" sign. I wonder if she realizes that while an open lesbian would be free to live her life in Israel, her life would be in danger in an Arab country, which are notoriously homophobic. Ah, the irony!

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Karl, glad you found it humourous too. What made me think of posting the link was the dozen or so references to Che in this thread. I'll raise you two Che for one Mao 

Warmest regard


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

I find most communists to be dressed rather poorly, to blend in with the "proletariat", I suppose. Sometimes a particular shade of military green might be pleasing on a pair of trousers, though those military jackets they tend to wear aren't particularly fetching.

WWII era British and German military trenchcoats are fantastic, however.

As for plastering a politician all over your t-shirt, I'd just as soon wear a Marlboro logo or looney tunes jacket. I do have a soft spot for nerdy in-joke t-shirts, though. My friend has one with the chemical structure of capsacin on the back that I think is sort of clever.


Good/Fast/Cheap - Pick Two


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> Taken in isolation, I would readily believe any of the three listed. Put them all together, and it is somewhat incongruous to me.


Which bit? That a pinko like me loves him mummy and wants to go visit her? Or that I can afford to go to France? A quick internet search will show that I can fly from Vanouver to Paris cheaper than I could get to St Johns or Puerto Vallarta.

As for my affluent lifestyle, well, I'm not sure where you got that impression. I do OK - but maybe we have different ideas of affluence, I don't know.

Hang on, it's the socialist part, right? Well, I ain't planning on marching the streets of Berkeley in my birthday suit (gasps of disappointment from the ladies...) but I vote with my conscience and contribute to those charities and causes which share my world view. I pay my taxes without (too much) grumbling in the understanding that I have a contribution to make and that this is the best way of doing it.

If that makes me an enthusiatic socialist then so be it. Doesn't mean I won't take my wife somewhere nice for dinner every now and then or take my son to visit his grandparents in France.

You tell me which part is incongrous.



> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> I have never mentioned this thought, but since you have been so quick to accuse people of lying,


_*Person*_, not people. FlatSix is obviously talking crap and you know it as well as I do. I already apologized to Karl and withdrew the comment. I haven't called anybody else a liar - although I've thought it on several occasions.

The only reason I picked on FlatSix was that a. his story was such a blatant fib and b. he was rude to me.



> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_ however you have never mentioned being a trust fund baby so did not want to assume.


Now _that _is pretty funny. No, I'm not a trust fund baby. it wasn't the school of hard knocks either, probably right in the middle in that fat part of the curve.

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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gmac,

Will you have all your enemies on Ask Andy be liquidated immediately after the revolution or will we be sent to some gulag, forced to make polyester clothing for the masses while reading Gmac's Little Red Book? 

Karl


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## MER (Feb 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> That's just it, MER. Education and the popular culture constantly remind us of Hitler's atrocities, but not Mao's or Stalin's. Why would academia and the media have that focus? It's the reason American leftists today wear Che and Mao t-shirts while screaming about the man they call the world's biggest terrorist, known to them as Chimpy McBush*tler.


I'm with you on popular culture, and to me it's because of pure laziness rather than some agenda. It really is just easier to just slot in a nazi when you're writing a script. And looking at the numbers even Jakob the Liar brought in twice what farewell my concubine did. But I disagree as far as education. If anything education puts more focus on the atrocities on mao and stalin then on hitler, mostly because everyone already knows about hitler. But if you feel education is teaching these kids something that goes against the way we think, feel free to write a book about it. A book that teaches our kids to stand up to these professors, challenge them during class, and even report them. Wait, I think somebody already did...M-- something?


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Gmac,
> 
> Will you have all your enemies on Ask Andy


I have enemies here?



> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> be liquidated immediately after the revolution or will we be sent to some gulag, forced to make polyester clothing for the masses while reading Gmac's Little Red Book?


No mass liquidations. Re-education camps where you will learn about the absolute superiority of Scotland in all fields, the importance of proper laundry care of your shirts and how to tie a windsor knot properly (that one is for the masses, probably not required by my _friends _at AAAC).

Everyone will be dressed in handmade shirts, bespoke suits and shoes from Northamptonshire.

Yes, you will have to read Gmac's Little Red Book. It will do you good.

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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> Re-education camps where you will learn about the absolute superiority of Scotland in all fields, the importance of proper laundry care of your shirts and how to tie a windsor knot properly
> 
> Everyone will be dressed in handmade shirts, bespoke suits and shoes from Northamptonshire.
> ...


I am surprised people would even need further education concerning Scotland! It sounds like a good book so far though I must say.

_Slainte!_


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Only Fergie, Duchess of York had the common sense to say people should lighten up over the COSTUME. Public outcry only serves to encourge bad taste. Don't you guys remember being teenagers? Most eateries displaying bad taste in decor usually also offer food that is also bad. Stick around long enough and there will be a pizza parlour coming soon sign over the soaped windows.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> _*Person*_, not people. FlatSix is obviously talking crap and you know it as well as I do. I already apologized to Karl and withdrew the comment. I haven't called anybody else a liar - although I've thought it on several occasions.
> 
> The only reason I picked on FlatSix was that a. his story was such a blatant fib and b. he was rude to me.


And, of course

c) You're a coward who will cross the street if you see me coming the other way.
d) Your mother is earning your airfare on her back.
e) Feel free to make arrangements to disprove c) or d). I've already called you out once today.

It's time to pull the covers off *your* anonymous fantasy life. Time for *you* to start proving something.

----------------------

"When you wear something like spats, I think you might as well wear your favorite players jersey bc what youre saying is I want to be powerful like the bear and Im wearing its hide to tap into its power." - Film Noir Buff

"First sense of what "normal" good clothes looked like came from my dad, of course, and from Babar books." - Concordia

" I have a related problem in that I often have to chase people. Leather soles are no good for this kind of work." - Patrick06790


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FlatSix_
> 
> And, of course
> 
> c) You're a coward who will cross the street if you see me coming the other way.


Ah! The internet tough guy! I was wondering how long that would take...



> quote:_Originally posted by FlatSix_
> d) Your mother is earning your airfare on her back.


Uh-huh....

You're a very classy guy aren't you?



> quote:_Originally posted by FlatSix_
> e) Feel free to make arrangements to disprove c) or d). I've already called you out once today.


Was _that _what you were doing? Your post was completely unintelligible.



> quote:_Originally posted by FlatSix_
> 
> It's time to pull the covers off *your* anonymous fantasy life. Time for *you* to start proving something.


Because *you *have been such a big tough guy?

Oh wait, you _are _tough! You called me _gay_! And my mother a whore.

Unlike Karl, you can say exactly what you like about my family because your opinion is utterly meaningless to me.

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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> Ah! The internet tough guy! I was wondering how long that would take...


I apologize if I gave you the impression that I was an ITG. Let's fix that. Send me your contact information and we'll take this off-line.

----------------------

"When you wear something like spats, I think you might as well wear your favorite players jersey bc what youre saying is I want to be powerful like the bear and Im wearing its hide to tap into its power." - Film Noir Buff

"First sense of what "normal" good clothes looked like came from my dad, of course, and from Babar books." - Concordia

" I have a related problem in that I often have to chase people. Leather soles are no good for this kind of work." - Patrick06790


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FlatSix_
> 
> I apologize if I gave you the impression that I was an ITG. Let's fix that. Send me your contact information and we'll take this off-line.


You misunderstand.

I don't think you are a tough guy. I think you are an idiot.

Why don't you send me your contact details first?

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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

You already have my contact details; I don't hide my email and I'm not anonymous here. I've met other AAAC members, purchased numerous items from AAAC advertisers and vendors, and freely discussed who I am and I what I do.

You, on the other hand, are "gmac", a fellow whose life consists of repeating freshman-level political thought on a clothing forum.

Time to step up.

----------------------


"When you wear something like spats, I think you might as well wear your favorite players jersey bc what youre saying is I want to be powerful like the bear and Im wearing its hide to tap into its power." - Film Noir Buff

"First sense of what "normal" good clothes looked like came from my dad, of course, and from Babar books." - Concordia

" I have a related problem in that I often have to chase people. Leather soles are no good for this kind of work." - Patrick06790


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

This thread reminds me of Ghostbusters II. I think some of that Ecto-goo that makes everyone cranky with each other is flowing in the sewers beneath the Interchange.


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## MER (Feb 5, 2006)

Thought you guys might enjoy this: "Who's NOT comparing Bush to the Nazis?"


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, what I meant (by a reductio ad absurdam)was that Karl89's reason for not wearing the emblems of mass killers should logically hold for all such emblems - which of course it doesn't. So the real reason why certain emblems cause offense (swastikas, hammer and sickle) and others don't (eagles and crowns) must be subjective. It must be to do with historical closeness or contemporary resonance, or social pressures.

The fact is, whereas Nazi emblems are outlawed, there is no such consensus on Communist emblems - they just don't offend so many people. And they have a kitsch appeal.

On this last point, and on a more philosophical plane, it is interesting to observe how powerful regimes always produce an aesthetic. Think of the monumental statuary of ancient Rome, or the gilded churches of the Jesuit missionaries. Colonialism produced Kipling, Soviet Communism produced Eisenstein, Nazism produced Leni Riefenstahl. Kipling is respectable - even revered, Eisenstein is a classic, Riefenstahl is still outlawed. With time, maybe even the horrors of Nazism will fade like the horrors of the ancient world (read Horodotus). Arno Breker may one day become a classic.

Ed: interesting site: https://www.goodart.org/artofnz.htm

Ed: sorry, that should be Herodotus, _The Histories_


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Globetrotter,
> 
> ...


agreed. part fo the problem is that young people have no idea what communisism was about, and yet they feel that the icons are somehow cool and anti-establishment.


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## cconat2000 (Feb 16, 2006)

Wow, gmac. You are truly a monstrous individual.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Thats just gmac being gmac. He's controversial but sometimes gets goaded into it. See the thread on him and Karl89 further down in the Interchange. It's his kinder, gentler side (he'll love the comparison to GHWB).


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

cconat2000,

KenR is absolutely correct. Stick around and you'll see Gmac is mostly just a troublemaker - but he's our troublemaker. He's the only fellow on Ask Andy that I would just assume buy a drink for AND punch in the nose, though not necessarily in that order! 

Karl


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## Harry96 (Aug 3, 2005)

It's funny that I read this thread tonight, because I was just listening to a lecture from Dr. Walter Block, discussing socialism and fascism.

Among other things, he discusses how inaccurate it is to believe that the only two political philosophies that exist are "left" (socialism/communism) and "right" (fascism).

He also explores the oddity that in some cultures today, wearing clothing depicting fascist symbols, such as swastikas, is not tolerated, but it's considered socially acceptable to wear communist symbols -- especially considering that, by all accounts, the communists murdered far more people than the fascists (which isn't to say that fascism is good, but that communism is at least as bad).

Anyone who's interested can listen here:

https://www.mises.org/multimedia/mp3/ss05/ss05-Block.mp3

And while you're at mises.org, if you're interested in helping to buck this "communist chic" trend, you can click on the "store" tab and buy a t-shirt depicting the likeness of someone like Mises or Rothbard.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Harry96,

Murray Rothbard is a bit too esoteric for the masses but his apparent love for Khrushchev is reason enough not to salute his dubious legacy. His rather radical and fringe views probably prevented the Libertarian Party from becoming viable in American politics. A Rothbard t-shirt is better than Che, von Mises would be even better but a Hayek tee would be the best.

Karl


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

In a lot of pictures, Khrushchev seems to be wearing a sack suit - e.g. pics of him with JFK. I remember even seeing him with what looked like a BB two-button cuff.

I've often wondered whether the grey-suited party apparatchiks leant more towards English or American style. English style might have been associated with the czarist regime, so the more utilitarian American Trad style might have been preferred. Might be worth some research when I've got the time - unless anyone has the answer already.

For some more authentic Communist chic,what about this pair of K's shoes (not, unfortunately, the model used at the UN, which is lost)

https://imageshack.us

I don't remember ever seeing sham laces before.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich,

The William Taubman bio of Khrushchev is excellent and has some very good pictures. Nikita's suits look ill fitting and cheap - though his bowling ball build was hard to flatter. Khrushchev was a true peasant (in both the good and bad sense) and his fashion sense was lacking. 

And the shoes, Cleverley or Lobb? 

Karl


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Rich,
> 
> ...


Thanks Karl89, I've put it on my list.

Here's an example of Communist fogey chic (Leonid Brezhnev):

https://imageshack.us


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## Harry96 (Aug 3, 2005)

Hi Karl,

What makes you think Rothbard loved Khrushchev? (I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying I've never heard that and it seems inconsistent with him.) I'm embarassed to say that I have yet to read any of Rothbard's books, but I've read a lot of his articles and heard him referenced numerous times by various people. 

I know what you mean about him being too esoteric for the average person. That doesn't mean the average person is stupid, but that Rothbard arrived at his conclusions through many years of study, as have I and many others, and the average person not only doesn't know any of this, but was taught a great deal of contradictory, harmful, false information in 12 years of government schooling that he needs to unlearn in addition to learning all of the new information. 

Many can't cope with the idea of rejecting what they've been taught about government, confronting the fact that it's not a panacea, but an angency of institutionalized violence that can no more not murder and terrorize than water can not be wet; and that virtually everything it does makes everyone except the politically-connected elite worse off -- including the poor that so many government advocates claim to want to help; and that the only legitimate role for a government (if there is one) is to concern itself with those who initiate force or fraud against others. 

Many -- probably most -- will either deny these facts, or admit them but then speak of "reforming" things, which is like trying to replace one kind of cancer with another.

Then if you go a step beyond this and say that ideally, governments should be totally disbanded and that everything, including roads, sidewalks, police, courts and everything else should be privatized, you're going to lose almost everyone. 

Speaking of Rothbard, I read the other day where he pointed out along this line that most people would say they feel safer walking around inside Disney Land than inside Central Park. But why? Because the owners and managers of a place like Disney Land cannot afford to have even one murder, rape or robbery occur on their property because it's so bad for business. But the mayor of NYC will not personally suffer if such a thing occurs in Central Park. That's not necessarily to say he doesn't care, but his career won't suffer from one crime here or there the way that of an owner or manager of private property will. 

Anyway, all of this is why I often avoid discussing politics with people -- not because I can't usually explain my beliefs, but because I don't have the energy to even attempt to catch anyone up to where they can even see where I'm coming from, much less to where they agree.

The other day I was reading one of Richard Maybury's books. He was discussing cognitive dissonance -- the fact that people have mental models for things (even if they don't know they have them) and if they come across information that's damning to their model, they're much quicker to throw out the information than the model. If pressed on it, the person will usually try to change the subject or get away, and if you keep pressing them beyond that point, they may become angry. His point was related to explaining libertarianism and how foolish and exhausting it is to think you can undo 12 years of government schooling and many years of subsequent reinforcement by the media in a five-minute conversation with someone.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by KenR_
> It's his kinder, gentler side (he'll love the comparison to GHWB).


I think I preferred being called monstrous... (a first for me by the way, despite 7 years of marriage).

------------------


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