# Brooks Brothers problems



## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Hi all. Brooks Brothers has been a favorite on this site since I started here in 2009. Through the years I have seen many threads on the downturn of the brand. I thought perhaps we could come together as a group and figure out all the recent problems with BB and whether or not they should continue to be such a coveted name. 

In one of my previous posts I mentioned that BB had refused to answer a question as to the origin of the materials used in the making ôf their duffle coat. I in turn refused to buy the item. 

My last purchase through Brooks Brothers contained 4 Shell Cordovan belts. When I ordered they were marked "in-stock" and to be delivered in 5-10 day.

2 weeks after I placed the order BB hadn't communicated anything and I had to write them asking as to the whereabouts of my merchandise. The suprise answer: "We're out of stock at the warehouse. They should arrive in about 3 weeks and you'll have them by the end of December.".

10 days later I get notice from a third company stating that the belts are on the way. Not the complete order but 3/4.

2 days later I check the tracking system and it states that my merchandise has been delivered. That was quite a shock to me as I certainly didn't take delivery of package. I of course write the delivery company. It turns out that the "sender" had put "no signature needed" on the package and they were therefore put on the doorstep to my apartment (which is in a buidling that has unrestricted public access). $530 tossed on the doorstep? Really? What a great idea. Perhaps I should store my wallet and bankbook out there as well. 

I have a few BB sweaters & a couple pair of their Shell Cordovan shoes and have no complaints, but I'm afraid that BB has lost me as a client (not that they care).


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## Hyacinth (Feb 4, 2007)

Yikes! That's terrible CS. 

My complaints are more about quality - I recently bought a handbag with golden fleece buttons on it. In just over a week of carrying it, one fell off and the others were loose. I took it to the local store and they sent it out to reinforce all of them. Fingers crossed. I can't complain.

My other beef would be the website. Who knew that you could submit an order, receive a confirmation number, but the order vaporizes. Apparently it times out without letting you know and generates a "dummy" number.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

If you care to say, which carrier left the package at a door in a building open to the public?


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

godan said:


> If you care to say, which carrier left the package at a door in a building open to the public?


Keeping in mind that the carrier claims that they only followed shipper instructions & that BB/3rd party shipper attached a sticker stating signature wasn't needed... It was DHL... They were quite apologetic& followed through with my enquiry but I still fail to see the logic in leaving a package on a doorstep. I would guess they know the value of the contents & just chose to follow the status quo.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

justonemore said:


> Keeping in mind that the carrier claims that they only followed shipper instructions & that BB/3rd party shipper attached a sticker stating signature wasn't needed... It was DHL... They were quite apologetic& followed through with my enquiry but I still fail to see the logic in leaving a package on a doorstep. I would guess they know the value of the contents & just chose to follow the status quo.


There is no logic in leaving things on doorsteps. The carriers believe it is still mid-20th century - Ozzie may be at work, but Harriet is home during the day. If she's at the grocery, a nice neighbor will watch the package. Their business model and their corporate mentality insists on delivering to residences during the working day, when most modern Americans are at work, and leaving packages in non-secure locations, where other modern individuals, who may or may not be Americans, can steal them. The carriers refuse to rethink this model and, for example, to re-set their residential delivery windows from 7 to 8 a.m. and 5 to 9 p.m., when people may more likely be at home. My solution has always been to use a mail company - previously Mailboxes, Etc., now a private company. In your case, BB should make it right.


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## Bernie Zack (Feb 10, 2010)

I don't want to jump on any bandwagon, but BB does seem to have "slipped" somewhat in quality.

I will say this, I don't think I will ever buy (or allow my wife to buy for me) a "346" dress shirt from their outlet store. VERY poor quality. I did purchase a very nice "1818" sport coat during their annual sale last year, and I have been very pleased with the quality.

As far as the delivery habits of a 3rd party, I have never had a problem with BB or anyone else, for that matter, leaving a package with no signature required.


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## Buffalo (Nov 19, 2003)

Sorry to hear about OP's problems but I have been a BB's customer for many years and have never had such problems, to the contrary, BBs has been a a very reliable and quality merchant. I do not agree that BBs has "slipped" or that it is in decline. If anything they have broadened their array of available fits and maintained good quality for good value.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

A while ago I spoke with a patient who works for UPS. Instead of a signature, in residential deliveries they now ring the bell and leave the package at the door. The reason is that UPS determined that the losses of stolen packages left on the door step were much less than the delay in delivery costs it would incur with drivers having to wait for a signature. The drivers can deliver many more packages by leaving a package and they've figured out that taking the hit on a few lost packages was a better business decision that ultimately cost them less.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

justonemore, that's patently absurd that they'd do that. $530 of stuff nicked from your doorstep because they didn't think it needed a signature. What the f*** were they thinking?

Bernie Zack, no offence man, but _of course_ 346 is low quality. It's cheaply made junk only for "outlet" stores (which has no meaning anymore).


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## quiller (Dec 25, 2010)

I started buying at Brooks in the late 50s at the store on Madison Ave..The service was excellent and the quality of the goods was 1st rate.Brooks Brothers in my opinion still offers great service ,but the quality[particularly the non US made goods] is not as good as it was.In the old days the only sale was after Christmas.Now the sales are constant,and there seems to be a lot of different quality levels.I shop at Brooks much less than I did in the past,even though there is a store within 3 miles of my home.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

DocD said:


> A while ago I spoke with a patient who works for UPS. Instead of a signature, in residential deliveries they now ring the bell and leave the package at the door. The reason is that UPS determined that the losses of stolen packages left on the door step were much less than the delay in delivery costs it would incur with drivers having to wait for a signature. The drivers can deliver many more packages by leaving a package and they've figured out that taking the hit on a few lost packages was a better business decision that ultimately cost them less.


Your clear explanation is completely believable - - and completely disappointing.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Did you ultimately receive the package, or was it stolen from your doorstep?


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

I get expensive items shipped to my office and thus avoid the problem described herein.

Until this past week I honestly couldn't remember the last time I was shipped a package that required a signature. It startled me recently when Shoemart required one (first time ordering from there).


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## Bernie Zack (Feb 10, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Bernie Zack, no offence man, but _of course_ 346 is low quality. It's cheaply made junk only for "outlet" stores (which has no meaning anymore).


Jovan, you stated much more succinctly what I was trying to state!

I wonder, did they think that "the masses" would really believe they were getting BB quality in the "346" junk? Why such a move? Well, obviously, the marketing move paid off, because I don't see any of those stores closing, only proliferating.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Bernie Zack said:


> Jovan, you stated much more succinctly what I was trying to state!
> 
> I wonder, did they think that "the masses" would really believe they were getting BB quality in the "346" junk? Why such a move? Well, obviously, the marketing move paid off, because I don't see any of those stores closing, only proliferating.


You really need to ask that? It's all about the brand, man. Quality means nothing compared to brand-name for most. Have a peek at the 346 shirts compared to main-line shirts - golden fleece logo on the chest at least 50% more often in the outlet than the regular store. If that's not telling, I don't know what is.


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

I have a few "346" shirts that I rather enjoy...but then again, I bought those at thrift stores so it doesn't really matter what they mark them up to at retail or what they are pretending to be.

On the other hand, when I do go to the outlet, I try to buy only mainline items that have made their way in there somehow.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

At every apartment I have ever lived at all packages were left at the manager's officer not on your doorstep. That said, it's not the delivery company's fault it's the sender's. The sender must request "signature required" and pay a little more (passed on to you).


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## Randy Y (Apr 19, 2012)

I get a fair amount of my business clothes at BB (1818, not 346) and I'm happy with the service and quality. I do use a local store and I always use the same sales rep, they know me by name and keep me informed of sales and discounts. They also (try to) stop me from buying things I can't or shouldn't wear -- i.e. last time I wanted a sports coat he told me that he was fairly certain that the coat would go quite well with my red shorts...


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Another point of view: I live in suburban Atlanta and would be pretty miffed if the carrier did not leave a package on our front doorstep. Given our schedules, they could attempt a dozen drop-offs before successfully finding us home, and I have no time to be making a trip somewhere to pick up a package. We've had dozens of packages left on our porch without a problem.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Jovan said:


> justonemore, that's patently absurd that they'd do that. $530 of stuff nicked from your doorstep because they didn't think it needed a signature. What the f*** were they thinking?
> 
> Bernie Zack, no offence man, but _of course_ 346 is low quality. It's cheaply made junk only for "outlet" stores (which has no meaning anymore).


Alas, Brooks Brothers is not the only online retailer that does this. Virtually all do it! I've purchased $600 and $1100 pairs of shoes/boots (from different vendors) that were just dropped on our rural door stop. In one instance we were on a trip and the box was rained on, ruining the box, but not damaging the shoes. We also had a box with smoked salmon in it that was badly violatedo) by our neighbor's cats. I have learned from these experiences that the online retailers generally will specify signature required deliveries if we request that such be done! Indeed, there are ways in which we can improve our own luck!


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

dks202 said:


> At every apartment I have ever lived at all packages were left at the manager's officer not on your doorstep. That said, it's not the delivery company's fault it's the sender's. The sender must request "signature required" and pay a little more (passed on to you).


I agree that DHL isn't really at fault, they were simply following their routine. BB didn't want to pay extra for signed delivery and DHL did what they were paid to do. Most (all) international shipments I get have an invoice on the outside of the package so the contents & value of the package would be easy to determine for anybody to include Customs, BB,BB's 3rd party shipping company, DHL and anyone walking past my door that's up to a bit of mischief. I guess the first and the last were the only ones to care about the value. Pity.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> Alas, Brooks Brothers is not the only online retailer that does this. Virtually all do it! I've purchased $600 and $1100 pairs of shoes/boots (from different vendors) that were just dropped on our rural door stop. In one instance we were on a trip and the box was rained on, ruining the box, but not damaging the shoes. We also had a box with smoked salmon in it that was badly violatedo) by our neighbor's cats. I have learned from these experiences that the online retailers generally will specify signature required deliveries if we request that such be done! Indeed, there are ways in which we can improve our own luck!


HA. Indeed. What's the old saying? "God helps those who help themselves"? I tend to agree in general but as I have have ordered from BB in the past and was required to sign for the package, I was a little surprised by this new procedure (which won't end happily for most involved) especially as this shipment was of a higher value than my previous shipped purchases.

The being "out of town" is another valid point. AS BB told me that these items wouldn't even be in the warehouse until now, I wasn't expecting this package until mid-late December. If I was out of town and unable to check my email, I wouldn't have known there was a problem until I returned.

What is the term the police use in a case such as this? Chain of custody? I'm sure you're more than familiar with the concept. The last person to sign for the problem, owns the problem...


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Mike Petrik said:


> Another point of view: I live in suburban Atlanta and would be pretty miffed if the carrier did not leave a package on our front doorstep. Given our schedules, they could attempt a dozen drop-offs before successfully finding us home, and I have no time to be making a trip somewhere to pick up a package. We've had dozens of packages left on our porch without a problem.


Fair point but suburban Atlanta is a different beast from a "major" Swiss city. I doubt you have camps of Gypseys roaming the neighborhood and groups of kids using your staircase as social gathering area. In some of those American suburbs (including the one where I was raised), suspicious behavior by individuals not living in the area is noticed by the neighbors & the neighbors take action if something is amiss.


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## Semper Jeep (Oct 11, 2011)

DocD said:


> A while ago I spoke with a patient who works for UPS. Instead of a signature, in residential deliveries they now ring the bell and leave the package at the door. The reason is that UPS determined that the losses of stolen packages left on the door step were much less than the delay in delivery costs it would incur with drivers having to wait for a signature. The drivers can deliver many more packages by leaving a package and they've figured out that taking the hit on a few lost packages was a better business decision that ultimately cost them less.


I can totally believe that. I know firms like UPS and FedEx (and I imagine DHL) have refined everything about their delivery methods down to a science: Routes mapped daily to avoid left-hand turns and stoplights, start times and breaks/lunches that avoid the times of heaviest localized traffic, GPS monitored trucks, ability to reroute on the fly based on current conditions, etc. etc. I go to a big GIS/mapping conference every other year or so and there are always representatives there from the big delivery companies. It does not surprise me that they've done the math and decided a few lost packages are less expensive to them than fewer deliveries by a driver during their shift (or more overtime).


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Semper Jeep said:


> I can totally believe that. I know firms like UPS and FedEx (and I imagine DHL) have refined everything about their delivery methods down to a science: Routes mapped daily to avoid left-hand turns and stoplights, start times and breaks/lunches that avoid the times of heaviest localized traffic, GPS monitored trucks, ability to reroute on the fly based on current conditions, etc. etc. I go to a big GIS/mapping conference every other year or so and there are always representatives there from the big delivery companies. It does not surprise me that they've done the math and decided a few lost packages are less expensive to them than fewer deliveries by a driver during their shift (or more overtime).


On the other hand...I can also imagine BB figuring out that x$ more for a signature adds up to much more than the x amount of stolen/lost merchandise that needs to be replaced.


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## VaBeach (Oct 14, 2013)

I have a PO box and BB will not ship to it so I have the store order for me and pick up there. The store is 5 minutes from my house and I stop by on the way home saving on shipping costs.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

My experience with BB is that it is all over the map in quality, style and service / it is constantly inconsistent. 

Yes, it has some very well made clothes at high, but not unreasonable, prices and, with the regularly occurring 25% off sale, one can buy some items of decent value at BB. I like the OCBDs, especially on a small sale, they are well made and reasonably priced. But it also has some high-priced, not-very-well-made clothes. I haven't bought those items, but I've seen some overpriced wool sweaters, casual pants, sport coats and shoes. Its suits and sport coats need to be investigated item buy item as there is no consistency in quality from one line to another line. And sizes are inconsistent - even within a line - as I have taken several pre-sized pants (32x34) into the dressing room and the waist and length of the "same size" have been noticeably different from pair to pair.

Additionally, the styles are all over the map. They have classics, updated classics (slimmer, more color choices), some aggressively tweaked classics (Red Fleece) and some "fashion-foward" (Black Fleece) stuff. This isn't bad or good (they are trying to appeal to many types of clients), but it can be confusing when walking around the store. This is not a fault, just an observation. However, when you want to appeal to many different types of clients, you sacrifice a clear definition of what your brand is (something that up until the 90s was not in doubt at BB).

But where I think BB is completely confused is in service. I have worked with some engaged and knowledgable salespeople and have had some great experiences, but have also been turned off by some aggressive, pushy salespeople who are driving hard for the commission and, at other times, some completely un-engaged salespeople. I have had some good and some bad web experiences that needed follow up to straighten something out, but again, I never know which experience I'll be getting. But to stay on point, and to justinemore's point, there is no consistency in process or policy. 

After several outright bad tailoring experiences - tailor marking the garment up at warp speed and not wanting to listen to my preferences and, then, when picking up the garment, I had to push to be allowed to try it on in the store (and was handed the garment and then abandoned by the salesperson) and, then, having to push to have obvious errors corrected - I have stopped buying any clothes from BB that need alterations.

What echoed with me when reading justinemore's story is that his experience of inconsistency is exactly like my experiences have been. I will still buy some things from BB as it does have some great classics and some updated classics that I like at reasonable prices, but I just don't feel good about the store owing to the sometimes bad in-store service, sometimes poor quality, sometimes bad web experience and several bad tailoring experiences that I have had.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

^ Put into words what I couldn't. Supposedly BB reads these forums. Supposedly. But if they have, they've made a conscious effort to not rectify many of their issues.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

godan said:


> There is no logic in leaving things on doorsteps. The carriers believe it is still mid-20th century - Ozzie may be at work, but Harriet is home during the day. If she's at the grocery, a nice neighbor will watch the package. Their business model and their corporate mentality insists on delivering to residences during the working day, when most modern Americans are at work, and leaving packages in non-secure locations, where other modern individuals, who may or may not be Americans, can steal them. The carriers refuse to rethink this model and, for example, to re-set their residential delivery windows from 7 to 8 a.m. and 5 to 9 p.m., when people may more likely be at home. My solution has always been to use a mail company - previously Mailboxes, Etc., now a private company. In your case, BB should make it right.


Exactly!! I learned from experience to give_* specific instructions *_for delivery, as the sender's default method is "give it to the shipper", and the shipper's is "ring bell, leave at door". Do_* not *_assume that they will deviate based on the value of the package, nor that you'll recoup the loss. They'll have the tracking records to show delivery made to your address, and you'll have nothing show that you asked for anything different. I now have anything of value sent to a nearby strip mall shipping company


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Pakages nicked from the stoop?? 

Where do you live??


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Pakages nicked from the stoop??
> 
> Where do you live??


As stated, in Lausanne, Switzerland. The area I have lived in for the past several years has gone through quite some amazing changes the last few of them. I believe we're the last Swiss city to condone Gypsy begging and our streets are rife with them. Happily they have chosen our neighborhood to set up in. The local grocery store has gone from a quiet place to enjoy shopping to having 3 security guards on duty and video cameras everywhere. I can't say that having housing for asylum seekers nearby helped the situation nor has opening our borders to the E.U. member states. Of course there are many factors in play as to a downturn in a society/region/are/etc. but I'll leave off the politics for the interchange. I have also seen homeless sleeping in the stairwell (I don't begrudge anyone a dry, warm place to sleep if need be).

What I would guess was more likely than those three options however would be the teens that come and socialize in the stairwell. Especially this time of year (cold, snow, etc.) the kids love to come have a few smokes (more often joints). I live on the top of a tall building & the kids usually come up in the lift and meet around the corner in the stairwell. I've chased them out a few times (when my apartment starts smelling like pot) but what can I really do? Property Management refuse to put in electronic entry or an equal to it. I never worry about violent crime or safety issues here but I certainly wouldn't leave a pair of nice leather gloves lying around. We plan on moving but these things tend to take time here as there is more demand than supply for housing in Lausanne (not to mention that my wife's family has lived in the area for 40 years).

All of that is beside the point anyways. In what city would a package be safe left on a doorstep in a buiding with public access? London? Paris? Barcelona? Chicago? Nowhere. Doorstep delivery may work in the suburbs and rural areas where there is low traffic but not in areas where many people have the occasion to pass each day.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Pakages nicked from the stoop??
> 
> Where do you live??


Anytown, USA, bubba, and it's nothing new. Luckily it's rare


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Wow, there went the neigborhood!!

That being the case, office mail room delivery sounds like the ticket.

Or have it delivered to my Mom's address in Delaware to avoid sales tax. 

Oh, I guess that won't work...


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

phyrpowr said:


> Anytown, USA, bubba, and it's nothing new. Luckily it's rare


Yep. It could happen in Anytown, Globally. Frequency is usally more the issue (along with a host of causes i.e. poverty, education, upbringing, etc.).


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Wow, there went the neigborhood!!
> 
> That being the case, office mail room delivery sounds like the ticket.
> 
> ...


It's no worse than any other city. As stated in my earlier post, I don't really worry about violent crime. Theft has certainly been getting worse(at least according to the local newspapers) but not muggings or armed robbery. I would still go anywhere in the city alone at night but I'm not sure I'd want my daughters to do so in a few areas.

Ooops. Off topic again.... I still claim that BB should not have a package of any value delivered on the doorstep. There should always be accountability on a $500 order. I'm sure all parties involved could afford to eat a $500 loss, but why for goodness sakes, especially if you're billing yourself as a higher end dealer, take the risk at all? My conclusion is that they most likely don't care about a loss of goods and the inconvenience this might cause to the client versus saving a few bucks on the postage (saving a few dollars on several thousands of packages adds up in the end).


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> Yep. It could happen in Anytown, Globally. Frequency is usally more the issue (along with a host of causes i.e. poverty, education, upbringing, etc.).


Permissiveness, moral decay, lowered expectations....


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## Buffalo (Nov 19, 2003)

These are some pretty relative terms which require detailed explanations rather than just throwing them about as explantions for certain behaviors., just my humble opinion.


WouldaShoulda said:


> Permissiveness, moral decay, lowered expectations....


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## VaBeach (Oct 14, 2013)

I don't have any complaints yet about the quality of the merchandise, I would just like them to deliver to my PO box. Leaving packages at the door is a non-starter for me.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Buffalo said:


> These are some pretty relative terms which require detailed explanations rather than just throwing them about as explantions for certain behaviors., just my humble opinion.


The idea seems to be to blame everybody for crime but the criminal.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

I'm having one of those moments where I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. 

I ducked out of my apartment for a quick smoke and decided to take a little walk through a wooded area near my building. Near the end of the trail I notice a couple discarded boxes. I go check them out, lo and behold, there are my missing packages opened and empty. After a short search of the area off the path, I located a belt and 15 minutes later I left the woods with all 3 of my belts, all still in their bags. I'm guessing he/she/it/they took the packages to the woods, opened them there and having no interest in the contents tossed the belts. It certainly brings a new light to the old saying"one man's garbage is another man's treasure". Oh well, I gues there's no accounting for taste.


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## VaBeach (Oct 14, 2013)

justonemore said:


> I'm having one of those moments where I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.
> 
> I ducked out of my apartment for a quick smoke and decided to take a little walk through a wooded area near my building. Near the end of the trail I notice a couple discarded boxes. I go check them out, lo and behold, there are my missing packages opened and empty. After a short search of the area off the path, I located a belt and 15 minutes later I left the woods with all 3 of my belts, all still in their bags. I'm guessing he/she/it/they took the packages to the woods, opened them there and having no interest in the contents tossed the belts. It certainly brings a new light to the old saying"one man's garbage is another man's treasure". Oh well, I gues there's no accounting for taste.


I will say it again - deliver to my PO box. I'm glad you got your belts.


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

While we're on the subject, I've had a couple of poor tasting experiences at the main BB store in my area.

During the first, a SA tried to convince me that the must-iron shirts have more chemicals in them than the non-iron. This was clearly due to the fact that they were trying to sell me on the non irons, since the must irons were hardly in stock.

During the second, a different SA approached me offering help. When I asked about a sale I had heard about, he hesitated, but reluctantly stated "that's for our corporate members". I mentioned that as a corporate membership holder I received the email. He still seemed skeptical but told me if I found anything I liked he'd help me out. I didn't really feel like looking around too much more.

The most recent time I was there I asked a different SA if they had any of the classic Shetland wool sweaters. He showed me some other sweaters (from my other snooping excursion I already concluded that they didn't have them, but perhaps they either hid them or just got some in...no such luck). The lack of this product was of no fault of his own, and he was very friendly and talked my ear off about the Black Fleece collection they had in the back room and showed me a $1000+ sweater on sale for only $850. He claimed that this collection has been very popular. 

Overall the guys in the store are friendly enough, unfortunately even with the large floor space they don't offer some of the staple items you might find on the BB site, Canadian prices are much higher than the US prices, and sometimes these guys just don't seem to know as much as their customers. Maybe I've gone in at the wrong times, but the store is almost always empty. Not a fabulous shopping experience overall...


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## Randy Y (Apr 19, 2012)

VaBeach said:


> I have a PO box and BB will not ship to it so I have the store order for me and pick up there. The store is 5 minutes from my house and I stop by on the way home saving on shipping costs.


Also, if you have the store (any store) order it for you and ship to your home -- there are no shipping costs. (I know this wasn't your point, but thought some people might appreciate the information)


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## Randy Y (Apr 19, 2012)

Spex said:


> While we're on the subject, I've had a couple of poor tasting experiences at the main BB store in my area.
> 
> During the first, a SA tried to convince me that the must-iron shirts have more chemicals in them than the non-iron. This was clearly due to the fact that they were trying to sell me on the non irons, since the must irons were hardly in stock.
> 
> ...


Forgive the multiple posts... but another reason you might choose to use a store (even after you peruse the website) is the way their warehousing / ordering system works.

If you want an item online, your size has to be in the 'warehouse', if it isn't there then you aren't getting it. However, if a store orders an item they can order it from the warehouse or any other BB store. I'm a smaller guy and I always have a much better shot finding something in my size across the stores than I do at the warehouse.


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

First line under "Shipping Information" on the BB website:

For your security, an adult signature is required for delivery of merchandise over $1,000.00.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Randy Y said:


> Forgive the multiple posts... but another reason you might choose to use a store (even after you peruse the website) is the way their warehousing / ordering system works.
> 
> If you want an item online, your size has to be in the 'warehouse', if it isn't there then you aren't getting it. However, if a store orders an item they can order it from the warehouse or any other BB store. I'm a smaller guy and I always have a much better shot finding something in my size across the stores than I do at the warehouse.


This is useful information. Thank you for posting it. Now, if I can find a sales associate in the Denver Cherry Creek BB who can manage the process, I should have better luck with slim fit polos.


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## mcfrankshc (Dec 8, 2013)

I've never had such terrible experience with BB. Perhaps it is an anomaly?


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

mcfrankshc said:


> I've never had such terrible experience with BB. Perhaps it is an anomaly?


i agree, my experience at my local BB is that the sales associate has always bent over backwards to help me. When the only suit I liked had pleats, she offered to have the pleats removed and had the suit sent to NY for alterations (turned out perfect) and she never charged me for the alterations. She always honors the Christmas sale discount, even if I come in a day early or late. My only complaint is that our local store is understaffed, and often I find myself either waiting or "sharing" my salesperson.

I personally don't think it's a BB "thing" if there is poor service, but it's just the luck of the draw. Sure, BB can spend more time with teaching it's associates, but I've found horrible service in a local Mercedes dealer. It simply depends on the employee. Some care and some don't.


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## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

Even with some of the issues people have had, do you guys think BB is a good place to start a wardrobe?


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## VaBeach (Oct 14, 2013)

immanuelrx said:


> Even with some of the issues people have had, do you guys think BB is a good place to start a wardrobe?


Without a doubt, yes. Other stores may offer items you want and that's alright. Good luck and have fun.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

immanuelrx said:


> Even with some of the issues people have had, do you guys think BB is a good place to start a wardrobe?


Yes, absolutely, it is a good place to start, probably the best overall. Some of the suggestions in your other thread could be specifically right, if you find a good, local men's store, with experienced clerks; if you find the right suit and sales associate at Nordstroms, etc. But, for the best bet, go to BB. You need not only a quality suit, but also one that fits. You learn about that by understanding both the fitter's explanations and the *feel* of how a suit is marked up. If you can take someone with you, have yourself photographed in the off the rack suit, the suit as it is marked up (you'll see the chalk marks) and the suit as it is returned, altered for you. Don't leave the store without trying it on and assuring yourself that it fits. Once you know how a suit that fits properly looks and feels on you, then it could be time to go off on other adventures.


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## mcfrankshc (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm just mad that BB items are exactly the same in Canada but 25% more expensive.


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## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

godan said:


> Yes, absolutely, it is a good place to start, probably the best overall. Some of the suggestions in your other thread could be specifically right, if you find a good, local men's store, with experienced clerks; if you find the right suit and sales associate at Nordstroms, etc. But, for the best bet, go to BB. You need not only a quality suit, but also one that fits. You learn about that by understanding both the fitter's explanations and the *feel* of how a suit is marked up. If you can take someone with you, have yourself photographed in the off the rack suit, the suit as it is marked up (you'll see the chalk marks) and the suit as it is returned, altered for you. Don't leave the store without trying it on and assuring yourself that it fits. Once you know how a suit that fits properly looks and feels on you, then it could be time to go off on other adventures.


Good to know. I keep on going back and forth between high end quality from the get go and BB (which is still a quality place, don't get me wrong) to start things off. I could always go high end, buy a few items with nothing complete for a while, or start off my wardrobe with BB and have outfits to wear right away. I won't probably buy until i get my clothing allowance from the military.


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

Although I too bemoan the fact that a lot of BB is no longer made in the USA, and I too loathe the predominance of non iron shirts, I can and do truthfully state that ALL of my BB mail order experiences have been positive.

1. Burgundy shell cordovan derby's. (Sorry, I loathe the word "blucher.") On sale after Christmas in 2009 or 2010 (I can't remember) for 25% off plus the 15% extra in the Dec. 26 e-mail.

2. 2 rounded collar shirts, one white; one orange striped with a white collar.

3. 2 white, pocketed, must iron dress shirts.

4. 1 Black Fleece suit.

All arrived timely and in good order.


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## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

peterc said:


> Although I too bemoan the fact that a lot of BB is no longer made in the USA, and I too loathe the predominance of non iron shirts, I can and do truthfully state that ALL of my BB mail order experiences have been positive.
> 
> 1. Burgundy shell cordovan derby's. (Sorry, I loathe the word "blucher.") On sale after Christmas in 2009 or 2010 (I can't remember) for 25% off plus the 15% extra in the Dec. 26 e-mail.
> 
> ...


What is wrong with non-iron shirts if I may ask? Do they lack in quality or something? Or is this for another post?


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

immanuelrx said:


> What is wrong with non-iron shirts if I may ask? Do they lack in quality or something? Or is this for another post?


I like my OCBD's a little rumpled, and I've found must-iron breathe more and handle the miserable, damp southern heat much better than non-irons.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Non-iron shirts wear out faster, are less comfortable, and don't breathe very well compared to their regular cotton cousins. There have been many advancements since when they first came out half a century ago, but none compare to the feel of a high quality, 100% untreated cotton shirt. I own a couple as "emergency backups" but they are far from my favourites.

The concerns about formaldehyde, etc. are kind of silly, IMO. You probably ingest way more preservatives in your food than what's in a shirt treated to retain its crispness.


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## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

Ok, I guess non-irons are out of the question! Thanks for the info.


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

On the non irons, I find that the collars get dirtier faster and clean less easily than my other shirts do. I will say that on mornings when I am in a hurry, the non-irons are very useful to me. I have 2, but I will buy no more.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

immanuelrx said:


> Ok, I guess non-irons are out of the question! Thanks for the info.


Many men wear non-irons happily every day. I urge you not to chase specifics, especially high end/high difficulty ones. Stay with your main idea, which is to buy a quality suit that fits. The reason I and others have directed you towards BB is that it is a solid, general, safe bet. If you want shirts there, too, try one of each and see what you like.


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

Just as a follow up to my bi*** session, I want to say that I admire the clothes at Brooks. Otherwise I wouldn't bother popping into the store once in a while!

I'll try my luck at their Boston area locations this weekend.


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## Randy Y (Apr 19, 2012)

immanuelrx said:


> Ok, I guess non-irons are out of the question! Thanks for the info.


Definitely make your own choice on this. I am in Houston, it's fairly hot and humid here most of the year, and I don't find the BB non-iron uncomfortable at all. Of course, I rarely run around outside if it's miserably hot.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

I have been a Brooks customer since 1970's shortly before the "decline". E.g., cessation of its custom tailoring department, closure of its suit factory in Long Island City, and installation of that blasted escalator at 346 Madison Avenue.

Brooks is still an excellent store, especially in neckwear (they still make their own), MTM shirts. and shoes.

Brooks has changed over the years. It will never be the same old Brooks with its old fashioned male salesmen and fuddy-duddy ways. However, if it had not changed it might have died with its customer base. The new owners have stanched some of the bleeding on the quality front. 

It has some excellent, good, not so good, and bad merchandise. Despite that, it is on the whole a safe place for a conservative man. The prices are not outrageous. There still is full service, such as tailoring. Where else can you get a coat relined or a suit recut?


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

son of brummell said:


> I have been a Brooks customer since 1970's shortly before the "decline". E.g., cessation of its custom tailoring department, closure of its suit factory in Long Island City, and installation of that blasted escalator at 346 Madison Avenue.
> 
> Brooks is still an excellent store, especially in neckwear (they still make their own), MTM shirts. and shoes.
> 
> ...


You are very lucky to have enjoyed BB in those days. I agree with your observations by the way.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

son of brummell said:


> I have been a Brooks customer since 1970's shortly before the "decline". E.g., cessation of its custom tailoring department, closure of its suit factory in Long Island City, and installation of that blasted escalator at 346 Madison Avenue.
> 
> Brooks is still an excellent store, especially in neckwear (they still make their own), MTM shirts. and shoes.
> 
> ...


I have no issue with female salespeople. Like their male counterparts they need to be knowledgeable about menswear. Sadly, from what I've been hearing, BB has sacrificed a lot of the training they used to put associates through.

What do you have against escalators, by the way?


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Jovan said:


> I have no issue with female salespeople. Like their male counterparts they need to be knowledgeable about menswear. Sadly, from what I've been hearing, BB has sacrificed a lot of the training they used to put associates through.
> 
> What do you have against escalators, by the way?


I have no issue with female salesmen (sales women? or sales associates?). I have a friend who is a terrific saleswoman and manager.

However, a female saleswoman does not have the same mens clothing "sense" and "taste" that a man has. After all, a male salesman not only sells clothes but buys his own clothes.

The old Brooks had a different feel. Sort of like a mens barbershop.

As for the escalator, it cheapened the store and eliminated good selling space. Unfortunately, in the 1980's and 1990's, former carriage trade stores succumbed and installed escalators to "move" traffic. E.g., Saks Fifth Avenue and Bergdorf Goodman. However, these two stores installed them at discrete positions out of view and off the main floor. I don't think that Brooks Brothers had the traffic to warrant the intrusion of an escalator.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

son of brummell said:


> I have no issue with female salesmen (sales women? or sales associates?). I have a friend who is a terrific saleswoman and manager.
> 
> However, a female saleswoman does not have the same mens clothing "sense" and "taste" that a man has. After all, a male salesman not only sells clothes but buys his own clothes.
> 
> The old Brooks had a different feel. Sort of like a mens barbershop.


At the risk of joining you in the disapprobation of the politically correct, I must say that I agree entirely. On a visit to my (probably formerly) favorite BB outlet in Cherry Creek in Denver, I encountered a young woman sales associate. She was quite attractive, helpful, positive and still learning English. Her attire was not what I think of as "women's BB," and she had absolutely no context. I doubt that she recognized that I was wearing two BB garments (one probably made before she was born) and, presumably new to this country, she did not grasp the nuances of how a young woman in her role should relate professionally to a much older man in mine. After she checked a computer (not her memory) to learn that the slim fit polo was not in the store, she knew to offer to order it for me, but I declined the offer. I shopped for a few more minutes to see if someone would have the wit to send out a more experienced sales associate, but that did not happen, so I left. Whoever hired and trained her probably understands the store's current customer profile, and she may indeed be a successful employee, but, as you say, the "old Brooks had a different feel."


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

A couple of months ago, the San Francisco Brooks Brothers relocated one block west. At that point, all of the long-time sales associates were summarily fired and replaced with brand-new, fresh-out-of-the-wrapper employees. I've been to the new store a couple of times. Without exception, the newly-hired sales associates are extremely cordial, very pleasant--and they know nothing about the merchansise they sell.

For example, when I was there two weeks ago to pay a bill--and do some general browsing, of course--a nice young fellow offered to assist me. I didn't need help at that moment, but we chatted a little bit. It turned out he had never heard the term "sack suit," so I gave him a quick explanation of that iconic garment and how it fits into Brooks Brothers' heritage. I also suggested he become a regular reader of the Ask Andy Fashion and Trad fora. I even borrowed a pen and scratch paper from him and wrote down the names of the fora for him. I hope he takes my advice.

That was the third time I had dealt with a nice, yet unknowledgeable, sales associates at that location. Evidently, new BB associates are trained only how to operate a cash register these days. That's the impression I got at the new store, anyway. The evidence available to me strongly indicates they are given no orientation as to the history of BB and its role in developing and popularizing the staples of classic menswear.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

I tend to dislike ad hominem, but it is idiots like this that are ruining the direction and reputation of the company: https://twitter.com/AownAsgharShah


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

godan said:


> At the risk of joining you in the disapprobation of the politically correct, I must say that I agree entirely. On a visit to my (probably formerly) favorite BB outlet in Cherry Creek in Denver, I encountered a young woman sales associate. She was quite attractive, helpful, positive and still learning English. Her attire was not what I think of as "women's BB," and she had absolutely no context. I doubt that she recognized that I was wearing two BB garments (one probably made before she was born) and, presumably new to this country, she did not grasp the nuances of how a young woman in her role should relate professionally to a much older man in mine. After she checked a computer (not her memory) to learn that the slim fit polo was not in the store, she knew to offer to order it for me, but I declined the offer. I shopped for a few more minutes to see if someone would have the wit to send out a more experienced sales associate, but that did not happen, so I left. Whoever hired and trained her probably understands the store's current customer profile, and she may indeed be a successful employee, but, as you say, the "old Brooks had a different feel."


Generally, you are not going to get experienced salesmen (or women) at a Brooks outlet. They are working there because they couldn't get a job at the J. Crew outlet next door.

You are not going to get an experienced salesman at the outlet mall. Generally, they are low paid hourly workers. The real pros in sales work the major cities at the major stores (such as 346 Madison, downtown Washington, DC). These guys (and gals) live from commissions, and the good ones can make a good living.

The older, full service stores in the major cities would have the experienced, "old timers." I am thinking of Tommy Davis in MTM shirts at 346 Madison. However, expecting the same level of salesmanship at the outlet store is a bit optimistic.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

I'm afraid that the gentleman I referred to is employed at a store in downtown Washington, DC. And he dresses like he shops at J. Crew. He is notorious for complaining about BB customers lack of taste in his store and on his social media. This is why I feel that it is permissible to bring attention to employees of his ilk that are representing their company. Would you really accept sartorial advice from this individual?

https://twitter.com/AownAsgharShah


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Charles Dana said:


> * * *
> 
> That was the third time I had dealt with a nice, yet unknowledgeable, sales associates at that location. Evidently, new BB associates are trained only how to operate a cash register these days. That's the impression I got at the new store, anyway. The evidence available to me strongly indicates they are given no orientation as to the history of BB and its role in developing and popularizing the staples of classic menswear.


Sadly, the objective in large scale retail is "cash and wrap." Service does not generate revenue.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

Brio1 said:


> I'm afraid that the gentleman I referred to is employed at a store in downtown Washington, DC. And he dresses like he shops at J. Crew. He is notorious for complaining about BB customers lack of taste in his store and on his social media. This is why I feel that it is permissible to bring attention to employees of his ilk that are representing their company. Would you really accept sartorial advice from this individual?
> 
> https://twitter.com/AownAsgharShah


Wow, that twitter bio is too funny. If this a**hat approached me in a BB flagship store ... I don't know what I would do.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Brio1 said:


> I'm afraid that the gentleman I referred to is employed at a store in downtown Washington, DC. And he dresses like he shops at J. Crew. He is notorious for complaining about BB customers lack of taste in his store and on his social media. This is why I feel that it is permissible to bring attention to employees of his ilk that are representing their company. Would you really accept sartorial advice from this individual?
> 
> https://twitter.com/AownAsgharShah


I thought I heard he was in Chevy Chase now?

Anyway, the Georgetown BB literally has the worst employees and worst customer service of any BB I've ever been in. I'm sure this is at least the third time I stated this on here, but it warrants repeating.

EDIT: clicked the link, he does indeed state that he is in the Chevy Chase store now. Shame, I liked that place. It was a very laid back and friendly, old school, low-pressure store in my experiences. It has been my main BB in the area since moving here.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

My experience has also reflected a change in the "good ol' boy" type of conservative sales of years gone by. However, at my local BB I prefer the female staff, who seem to know the products, and dress well and appropriately in nice suits, skirts, blazers, etc. They also instantly bond with my wife and agree with what they believe looks best on me. On the other hand, one of the salesman, though very nice and somewhat knowledgable, has a pony tail and wears a double breasted suit from 1983 with a funky print tie. Another nice and not so knowledgable salesman was wearing a black suit, dark red/maroon shirt with a black and red loud tie. He as wearing some ridiculous black pointy shoes that were so long the end of the shoes curled up like the shoes of a court jester. He was wearing a pinky ring and bracelet. As I stated, both gentleman were extremely pleasant and accommodating, but why would I take advice when their own attire was the polar opposite of my style. The female is always dressed crisply and appropriately and obviously has a sense of style. In this case, I'll choose her every time.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Wow, that twitter bio is too funny. If this a**hat approached me in a BB flagship store ... I don't know what I would do.


You would most likely smack him in the face.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

son of brummell said:


> Generally, you are not going to get experienced salesmen (or women) at a Brooks outlet. They are working there because they couldn't get a job at the J. Crew outlet next door.
> 
> You are not going to get an experienced salesman at the outlet mall. Generally, they are low paid hourly workers. The real pros in sales work the major cities at the major stores (such as 346 Madison, downtown Washington, DC). These guys (and gals) live from commissions, and the good ones can make a good living.
> 
> The older, full service stores in the major cities would have the experienced, "old timers." I am thinking of Tommy Davis in MTM shirts at 346 Madison. However, expecting the same level of salesmanship at the outlet store is a bit optimistic.


I may have introduced confusion by using the term "outlet" in a general sense, without remembering that it has a specific discount connotation in the case of some clothing retailers. This was a regular BB store in what used to be an upscale mall in a good area of Denver. That said, your comments about personnel in discount clothing outlets make sense. I just expected more from a BB store.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

son of brummell said:


> I have no issue with female salesmen (sales women? or sales associates?). I have a friend who is a terrific saleswoman and manager.
> 
> However, a female saleswoman does not have the same mens clothing "sense" and "taste" that a man has. After all, a male salesman not only sells clothes but buys his own clothes.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it is because I'm from a younger generation, but I don't really care for the "old boys club" feel.

Regarding your second point, escalators and elevators are in stores partly for the convenience of disabled customers.


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## M Go Crimson (Aug 20, 2011)

Tilton said:


> I thought I heard he was in Chevy Chase now?
> 
> Anyway, the Georgetown BB literally has the worst employees and worst customer service of any BB I've ever been in. I'm sure this is at least the third time I stated this on here, but it warrants repeating.
> 
> EDIT: clicked the link, he does indeed state that he is in the Chevy Chase store now. Shame, I liked that place. It was a very laid back and friendly, old school, low-pressure store in my experiences. It has been my main BB in the area since moving here.


The Chevy Chase location was my go-to as well when I frequented BB. Unfortunate they have this clown working there now.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I fail to see what is so bad about him? Reading his Twitter is optional.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Jovan said:


> I fail to see what is so bad about him? Reading his Twitter is optional.


"So bad about him? " !? Are you kidding, Jovan? Frankly, and with the utmost respect, you do not know what you are talking about on this matter. I've heard of one too many complaints from his former and current BB coworkers in regards to his insulting customers in store and via his social media accounts. (Perhaps this explains why he made his Twitter account "protected" now.) Furthermore, I like Tilton have had my own unpleasant experiences with him in the Georgetown store. Trust me, this clown would be no advocate of your taste in clothing (like mine). But if you insist you are most welcome to "friend" him on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aown.shah.58 Or perhaps you should start your own forum and call it "AskJovanAboutClothes" or "AJAC". :icon_smile_big:

" Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent."

-Wittgenstein


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> Another point of view: I live in suburban Atlanta and would be pretty miffed if the carrier did not leave a package on our front doorstep. Given our schedules, they could attempt a dozen drop-offs before successfully finding us home, and I have no time to be making a trip somewhere to pick up a package. We've had dozens of packages left on our porch without a problem.


I agree with this. I am so irritated when I have a note on my door advising that a delivery attempt was made which required a signature. 
This means I have to drive to the roughest part of town where Fed Ex or UPS has their warehouse, which is also on the opposite side of town.

Turns out, people who typically purchase more expensive products are typically working at 2:30 in the afternoon on a Tuesday and not laying at home watching TV. So, the chances of someone being home to sign for a Brooks Brothers purchase is very slim.

As I write this, I am waiting for two Fitzgerald suits and a Fitzgerald Navy Blazer I purchased at last week's sale. It will be left on my porch and will be waiting for me when I get home.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

son of brummell said:


> I have no issue with female salesmen (sales women? or sales associates?). I have a friend who is a terrific saleswoman and manager.
> 
> However, a female saleswoman does not have the same mens clothing "sense" and "taste" that a man has. After all, a male salesman not only sells clothes but buys his own clothes.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with your take on female salespersons in men's stores. About half of them should not even be in that job. Many times they want to sell you something whether it looks good on you or not. Men salespersons, no matter how aggressive, will at least give you their honest opinion on whether that item fits your style. The men will suggest another item, whereas ladies will not, fearing that they will lose a sale. Quite a few of the ladies could also use a course in etiquette, but I haven't met any men that would need that course.


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## Hyacinth (Feb 4, 2007)

blue suede shoes said:


> Quite a few of the ladies could also use a course in etiquette, but I haven't met any men that would need that course.


Can you elaborate, BSS? Genuinely curious!


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

blue suede shoes said:


> I have to agree with your take on female salespersons in men's stores. About half of them should not even be in that job. Many times they want to sell you something whether it looks good on you or not. Men salespersons, no matter how aggressive, will at least give you their honest opinion on whether that item fits your style. The men will suggest another item, whereas ladies will not, fearing that they will lose a sale. Quite a few of the ladies could also use a course in etiquette, but I haven't met any men that would need that course.


Thats quite a broad (no pun intended?) generalization.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

I apologize if this goes slightly off topic. But I just left my local BB and while I was trying something on in the dressing room, I heard a gentleman complaining to the salesperson. He was with his wife and standing in front of the dressing room mirror. The jacket of the suit was pinned back, and they were both complaining that they were unhappy with the fit, and didn't believe it could be fixed, despite the salesperson expressing her willingness to talk to one of the head honcho tailors in NY. 

However, it turns out the suit was purchased 1.5 years ago, and he never came back in that entire time with a concern about the fit. He was now insisting on a full refund. His quote was "even Macy's and Marshall's will take a suit back in one and a half years". 

I didn't stick around for the resolution, but was wondering if anyone thinks it's reasonable for BB to refund the money on a tailored suit 1.5 years after the fact, with no return visits in that time period.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

DocD said:


> I apologize if this goes slightly off topic. But I just left my local BB and while I was trying something on in the dressing room, I heard a gentleman complaining to the salesperson. He was with his wife and standing in front of the dressing room mirror. The jacket of the suit was pinned back, and they were both complaining that they were unhappy with the fit, and didn't believe it could be fixed, despite the salesperson expressing her willingness to talk to one of the head honcho tailors in NY.
> 
> However, it turns out the suit was purchased 1.5 years ago, and he never came back in that entire time with a concern about the fit. He was now insisting on a full refund. His quote was "even Macy's and Marshall's will take a suit back in one and a half years".
> 
> I didn't stick around for the resolution, but was wondering if anyone thinks it's reasonable for BB to refund the money on a tailored suit 1.5 years after the fact, with no return visits in that time period.


No, I am not an shill for stores, and do my share of complaining about them on this board, but fair is fair - if you buy a suit and never say a thing about it for a year and a half, you cannot expect a full refund. That BB is willing to try to alter it for you (and solicit advice from its best tailor), it is showing good faith. (And this from a guy who will never buy clothes from BB that need alterations because I have had only bad experiences with its tailoring, but that said, I would never expect to wait a year and half - say nothing in between - and expect a full refund.)


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

DocD said:


> I apologize if this goes slightly off topic. But I just left my local BB and while I was trying something on in the dressing room, I heard a gentleman complaining to the salesperson. He was with his wife and standing in front of the dressing room mirror. The jacket of the suit was pinned back, and they were both complaining that they were unhappy with the fit, and didn't believe it could be fixed, despite the salesperson expressing her willingness to talk to one of the head honcho tailors in NY.
> 
> However, it turns out the suit was purchased 1.5 years ago, and he never came back in that entire time with a concern about the fit. He was now insisting on a full refund. His quote was "even Macy's and Marshall's will take a suit back in one and a half years".
> 
> I didn't stick around for the resolution, but was wondering if anyone thinks it's reasonable for BB to refund the money on a tailored suit 1.5 years after the fact, with no return visits in that time period.


This "gent" seems to be about 17 months off from having a reasonable claim.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

If there is a genuine defect in the garment, then it should be replaced no questions asked, regardless of the time frame.

I would not expect a full refund, except in the case of a gross defect.

I don't want to live in world where makers and merchants are not expected to stand behind their products.



DocD said:


> I apologize if this goes slightly off topic. But I just left my local BB and while I was trying something on in the dressing room, I heard a gentleman complaining to the salesperson. He was with his wife and standing in front of the dressing room mirror. The jacket of the suit was pinned back, and they were both complaining that they were unhappy with the fit, and didn't believe it could be fixed, despite the salesperson expressing her willingness to talk to one of the head honcho tailors in NY.
> 
> However, it turns out the suit was purchased 1.5 years ago, and he never came back in that entire time with a concern about the fit. He was now insisting on a full refund. His quote was "even Macy's and Marshall's will take a suit back in one and a half years".
> 
> I didn't stick around for the resolution, but was wondering if anyone thinks it's reasonable for BB to refund the money on a tailored suit 1.5 years after the fact, with no return visits in that time period.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

blue suede shoes said:


> I have to agree with your take on female salespersons in men's stores. About half of them should not even be in that job. Many times they want to sell you something whether it looks good on you or not. Men salespersons, no matter how aggressive, will at least give you their honest opinion on whether that item fits your style. The men will suggest another item, whereas ladies will not, fearing that they will lose a sale. Quite a few of the ladies could also use a course in etiquette, but I haven't met any men that would need that course.


The retail industry also employs women in men's stores because men like to buy from them. It's an old trick in "fine jewelry".


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> If there is a genuine defect in the garment, then it should be replaced no questions asked, regardless of the time frame.
> 
> I would not expect a full refund, except in the case of a gross defect.
> 
> I don't want to live in world where makers and merchants are not expected to stand behind their products.


I love and use warranties with regularity. However, I am a firm believer in the old warning to the consumer: Caveat Emptor! The onus ultimately falls on the consumer to thoroughly inspect anything he/she wishes to buy. I know that is impossible to do via catalog/online orders, so there I think a guarantee is necessary. If you have the opportunity to inspect a product for major and obvious flaws in person, it is your fault if choose not to do so. In this instance, I think the guy would have had a reasonable claim had he sought a refund much, much sooner. Frankly, it sounds like your standard retail abuse/fraud and, maybe, he was hard up for some Christmas cash and thought "hey, I'll just return that Brooks suit I never wear but spent a bunch on." Sort of like the teenage girl trick of wearing clothes once then returning them.

TL/DR: I don't want to live in a world where consumers are not expected to use common sense and then blame the merchant for their own mistakes.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

I don't remember every commenting about any flaw in the suit. If that was the case I would not have posted my comment. It appeared to simply be a case of buyer's remorse. He was complaining about the fit of the jacket, and with the amount they had it pinned back, I can't imagine any customer, tailor or salesperson would have let him out of the store looking THAT bad. And to return 1.5 years later and expect a refund on a suit that had no imperfections, in my mind is not reasonable. Maybe the guy lost a lot of weight, maybe he decided he spent too much, maybe he realized he rarely wears a suit...... The bottom line is that he was not complaining about any quality or "warranty" issue, and if he didn't like the fit and is returning 1.5 years later for a refund, not a re-fitting, I think the store has every right to decline a refund. The salesperson was trying to be very accommodating, even offering a call to one of the head tailors in NY to address his concerns. All he wanted was cash back.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Brio1 said:


> The retail industry also employs women in men's stores because men like to buy from them. It's an old trick in "fine jewelry".


That is certainly true of my favorite high-end jewelery store in Denver. However, unlike my recent BB experience, the young women in the jewelery store have a thorough knowledge of quality mechanicals. They know what movements are in what watch, how complications work, what to expect in terms of service intervals, where in the US different brands are sent for service, etc. Of course commissions on a $10K Vacheron are different from those on a $75 shirt, but I think there may be something here that BB could learn, if they wished.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

^

I'm glad to hear that the young ladies in your favorite shop have a good grounding in horology. I've been told that they were not required to know anything about the movement inside of the case, and yet all of the techniques involved in asking for and closing on the sale (this from an insider). (Women tend to see watches more as jewelry.) I have not read this novel, but you may find it of interest: https://www.amazon.com/How-Sell-Nov...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=8-1&qid=1386895828

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clancy_Martin


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## Buffalo (Nov 19, 2003)

I totally disagree with you as there are very knowledgeable women sales personnel and horrible men sales personnel. I'd be careful painting with such a broad brush. By the way, if you are ever in Northern NJ, a female sales person, Connie, is as knowledgeable about mens clothing as any male sales person I have ever encountered.


blue suede shoes said:


> I have to agree with your take on female salespersons in men's stores. About half of them should not even be in that job. Many times they want to sell you something whether it looks good on you or not. Men salespersons, no matter how aggressive, will at least give you their honest opinion on whether that item fits your style. The men will suggest another item, whereas ladies will not, fearing that they will lose a sale. Quite a few of the ladies could also use a course in etiquette, but I haven't met any men that would need that course.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

DocD said:


> I don't remember every commenting about any flaw in the suit. If that was the case I would not have posted my comment. It appeared to simply be a case of buyer's remorse. He was complaining about the fit of the jacket, and with the amount they had it pinned back, I can't imagine any customer, tailor or salesperson would have let him out of the store looking THAT bad. And to return 1.5 years later and expect a refund on a suit that had no imperfections, in my mind is not reasonable. Maybe the guy lost a lot of weight, maybe he decided he spent too much, maybe he realized he rarely wears a suit...... The bottom line is that he was not complaining about any quality or "warranty" issue, and if he didn't like the fit and is returning 1.5 years later for a refund, not a re-fitting, I think the store has every right to decline a refund. The salesperson was trying to be very accommodating, even offering a call to one of the head tailors in NY to address his concerns. All he wanted was cash back.


Is it possible he gained/lost a lot of weight in that time? Easily enough time to pack on or drop 50lbs.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

Tilton said:


> Is it possible he gained/lost a lot of weight in that time? Easily enough time to pack on or drop 50lbs.


If you re-read my post, I already mentioned that as a possibility. And if he did have a significant weight change, that's certainly not justification to request a refund.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

DocD said:


> If you re-read my post, I already mentioned that as a possibility. And if he did have a significant weight change, that's certainly not justification to request a refund.


Whoops. That's what I get for reading the first two lines and the last two lines and nothing in between.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Brio1 said:


> "So bad about him? " !? Are you kidding, Jovan? Frankly, and with the utmost respect, you do not know what you are talking about on this matter. I've heard of one too many complaints from his former and current BB coworkers in regards to his insulting customers in store and via his social media accounts. (Perhaps this explains why he made his Twitter account "protected" now.) Furthermore, I like Tilton have had my own unpleasant experiences with him in the Georgetown store. Trust me, this clown would be no advocate of your taste in clothing (like mine). But if you insist you are most welcome to "friend" him on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aown.shah.58 Or perhaps you should start your own forum and call it "AskJovanAboutClothes" or "AJAC". :icon_smile_big:
> 
> " Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent."
> 
> -Wittgenstein


Thank you for clearing this up for me, because until now on this thread all I had seen was some name-calling and linking to his Twitter account.

Have either of you made complaints about his behaviour and if so what was the response?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Jovan said:


> Thank you for clearing this up for me, because until now on this thread all I had seen was some name-calling and linking to his Twitter account.
> 
> Have either of you made complaints about his behaviour and if so what was the response?


I haven't, but if you take a look at the Yelp reviews of the Georgetown BB store, I'm sure you'll see him either mentioned by name, or referenced by behavior.

EDIT: just checked, you need to click "8 Not Recommended Reviews" below the reviews that appear.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Yikes. Why do they still maintain his employment then?


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## H&W (Aug 25, 2013)

Tilton said:


> You really need to ask that? It's all about the brand, man. Quality means nothing compared to brand-name for most. Have a peek at the 346 shirts compared to main-line shirts - golden fleece logo on the chest at least 50% more often in the outlet than the regular store. If that's not telling, I don't know what is.


Is even mainline Brooks Brothers innocent of this trend? A huge proportion of its merchandise seems to be offered according to a pricing strategy more associated with fashion 'labels' than heritage brands; what else can one say regarding a store that sells cotton sweaters, made in China, for more than Cordings will charge for Hawick-made lambswool? (The absurdity of the Chinese sweater in question being marketed under the 'Great Gatsby' marquee was almost rather too much to handle.)


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

Jovan said:


> Perhaps it is because I'm from a younger generation, but I don't really care for the "old boys club" feel.
> 
> Regarding your second point, escalators and elevators are in stores partly for the convenience of disabled customers.


Many other members of your "younger generation" quite like it -- more due to your left-wing views, I'd say.

And escalators do nothing for the disabled -- dangerous for canes, for those who are a bit wobbly & those who are slow walking. Can't take a wheelchair or scooter up the escalator. And in any case, BB had elevators since the building went up early in the 20th Century. I'd also say a knee-jerk reaction -- "disabled access" trumps all other values & issues.


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## Pale_Male (May 20, 2013)

H&W said:


> Is even mainline Brooks Brothers innocent of this trend? A huge proportion of its merchandise seems to be offered according to a pricing strategy more associated with fashion 'labels' than heritage brands; what else can one say regarding a store that sells cotton sweaters, made in China, for more than Cordings will charge for Hawick-made lambswool? (The absurdity of the Chinese sweater in question being marketed under the 'Great Gatsby' marquee was almost rather too much to handle.)


Your point is well taken. Although the movie tie-in merchandise is a one-time run with quality being no substitute for maximum [quick] profit.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Pale_Male said:


> Many other members of your "younger generation" quite like it -- more due to your left-wing views, I'd say.
> 
> And escalators do nothing for the disabled -- dangerous for canes, for those who are a bit wobbly & those who are slow walking. Can't take a wheelchair or scooter up the escalator. And in any case, BB had elevators since the building went up early in the 20th Century. I'd also say a knee-jerk reaction -- "disabled access" trumps all other values & issues.


"Old Boys Club" feel / decor - as noted, can have a political angle to it - and I'm not going near that aspect of it.

But there is an architecture and aesthetics aspect and vibe to it that isn't political. My girlfriend loves the look and feel as much as I do and enjoys being in it and she's quite independent and modern. Her view is simply that she likes the style, feel, (to her) warmth and clubbiness. She was disappointed when - somewhere in the last ten or so years - BB took out some of its older fixtures from 346 Madison to make the store feel more "modern." And was quite happy when they came back.

In NYC, I've noticed several new barber shops popping up that are targeting young men that have a vintage men's club feel. The same thing can be seen in the renaissance of classic cocktail bars in the city - very clubby feel and vibe going after the 20s- 40s crowd. So yes, it seems many of the younger generation like the aesthetic. And, again, I am not talking about anything political (not on this board).


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

Those Yelp reviews are terrible. The whole store should be re-staffed from the top down.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Pale_Male said:


> Many other members of your "younger generation" quite like it -- more due to your left-wing views, I'd say.
> 
> And escalators do nothing for the disabled -- dangerous for canes, for those who are a bit wobbly & those who are slow walking. Can't take a wheelchair or scooter up the escalator. And in any case, BB had elevators since the building went up early in the 20th Century. I'd also say a knee-jerk reaction -- "disabled access" trumps all other values & issues.


I think you misunderstood what I was referring to. I don't mind a vintage _aesthetic_. I mind vintage social attitudes. Those have changed for the better at Brooks Brothers. It is no longer just for WASP men.



Fading Fast said:


> "Old Boys Club" feel / decor - as noted, can have a political angle to it - and I'm not going near that aspect of it.
> 
> But there is an architecture and aesthetics aspect and vibe to it that isn't political. My girlfriend loves the look and feel as much as I do and enjoys being in it and she's quite independent and modern. Her view is simply that she likes the style, feel, (to her) warmth and clubbiness. She was disappointed when - somewhere in the last ten or so years - BB took out some of its older fixtures from 346 Madison to make the store feel more "modern." And was quite happy when they came back.
> 
> In NYC, I've noticed several new barber shops popping up that are targeting young men that have a vintage men's club feel. The same thing can be seen in the renaissance of classic cocktail bars in the city - very clubby feel and vibe going after the 20s- 40s crowd. So yes, it seems many of the younger generation like the aesthetic. And, again, I am not talking about anything political (not on this board).


Agreed.


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Those Yelp reviews are terrible. The whole store should be re-staffed from the top down.


Agreed. It's odd that Yelp hides the reviews just because they're so bad. Yelp says that it hides reviews from people without many reviews, but there are two reviewers with at least as many total reviews as the higher ratings, yet they're not displayed. 8 terrible reviews shouldn't be hidden.


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## VaBeach (Oct 14, 2013)

jm22 said:


> Agreed. It's odd that Yelp hides the reviews just because they're so bad. Yelp says that it hides reviews from people without many reviews, but there are two reviewers with at least as many total reviews as the higher ratings, yet they're not displayed. 8 terrible reviews shouldn't be hidden.


My wife and I are heading to NYC for New Years and had planned to visit the flagship store. I suppose we will still go and be on the lookout for surly employees.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

Jovan said:


> I think you misunderstood what I was referring to. I don't mind a vintage _aesthetic_. I mind vintage social attitudes. Those have changed for the better at Brooks Brothers. It is no longer just for WASP men.
> 
> Agreed.


I agree. At my local BB I was talking to two of the employees who were African American. Despite the fact these were two well dressed, polite and accommodating true gentleman, years ago I never remember seeing any employees of color at BB. This is one step forward I highly commend. As previously stated by others, having a good ole boy feel aesthetically, it's much different than the good ole boy mentality/attitude, which is hopefully a thing of the past.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

^
I've noticed that the African American gentlemen working in my local BB store tend to dress better then the "Neo-Preps" working in the said store . (This observation courtesy of a "white man".) Think Wynton Marsalis vs. Thom Browne (or the clown that I recently brought to the attention of members here). The gentleman that I seek out and recommend for assistance in the store is African American.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Tilton said:


> I haven't, but if you take a look at the Yelp reviews of the Georgetown BB store, I'm sure you'll see him either mentioned by name, or referenced by behavior.
> 
> EDIT: just checked, you need to click "8 Not Recommended Reviews" below the reviews that appear.


Please read the review written by a Ms. Kristen J. of Washington, DC under "Not Recommended Reviews for Brooks Brothers" in which she refers to the Thom Browne/ Pee-wee Herman fashion plate as "a bald guy who said [sic] one was of the managers!!!??? ". It's really quite funny!

https://www.yelp.com/not_recommended_reviews/eHAomcJOAIHudGWgfUS5wg


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Yikes. Why do they still maintain his employment then?


Because he thinks that he can get away with this odious behavior due to his membership in a certain retail mafia triad.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

Brio1 said:


> Because he thinks that he can get away with this odious behavior due to his membership in a certain retail mafia triad.


Ah, yes. The anti-WASP Society! I knew it was only a matter of time before they breached our supply chain.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Jovan said:


> * * * Regarding your second point, escalators and elevators are in stores partly for the convenience of disabled customers.


I am sorry, but the facts are that many of the old-line stores installed escalators solely as a device to increase "traffic" and "flow" within the store. "Convenience of disabled customers" never entered the decision. In fact, an escalator can be dangerous to the elderly and disabled.

Before the mid-1980's, Brooks, Saks, and Bergdorf did very well with just elevators. In fact, Saks and Bergdorf had elevator operators in each elevator. Brooks already had automatic elevators.

These stores sought increased customer traffic, and it was determined that escalators would serve that purpose. I recall reading about this in the business press. When they installed escalators (all around the same time) there was much discussion that it would cheapen their image. Escalators were associated with the stores for the masses, such as Macy's and Gimbels. The high-end stores made statements that the escalators would not lessen the experience and that the escalators were merely for customer convenience.

Brooks's escalator was but one element in its alleged modernization. Saks and Bergdorf were able to hide their escalators. In the case of Saks, it is between the old store and the new wing. It is a natural break. In Bergdorf, it is hidden as a spinal cord. However, in Brooks, it is plopped in the middle of the main floor, and it ruins and truncates the space.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

jm22 said:


> Agreed. It's odd that Yelp hides the reviews just because they're so bad. Yelp says that it hides reviews from people without many reviews, but there are two reviewers with at least as many total reviews as the higher ratings, yet they're not displayed. 8 terrible reviews shouldn't be hidden.


It is a well-established fact that Yelp moves/hides good or bad reviews based on whether or not companies are willing to pay for it. Google "Yelp extortion" and you'll find plenty of info on it.



Fading Fast said:


> The same thing can be seen in the renaissance of classic cocktail bars in the city - very clubby feel and vibe going after the 20s- 40s crowd. So yes, it seems many of the younger generation like the aesthetic.




Ah, the SpeakCheesy movement. Was cool, the drinks are still better than average, but I think the trend has finally peaked, thankfully.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Brio1 said:


> "Neo-Preps"


LOL!!


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