# RTW Shoemakers



## jcusey

It's been quite some time since I wrote the original text for this post, but comments from Roger on the recent that I started about bespoke shoemakers (among other things) have convinced me that a revision would be useful. My thanks to him for the list of RTW makers that he assembled and to medwards for his collection of URLs. This list borrows heavily in concept from von Rothbart's Comprehensive Links to High-End Shoes thread on SF, but it aspires to have less content (just makers, no shops or shoe porn sites) and more (annotations about the various makers, when I know something about them).

*Please note that this is intended to be a work in progress. If I don't write about a RTW brand that you care about, let me know. If you disagree with what I've written, let me know. This is supposed to be a useful reference.*

I'm not fond of ranking shoe makers because there are just too many variables and personal preference plays too much of a role. However, here are some general comments about some RTW brands. Strictly for the sake of convenience, makers are listed by country, either where the maker's business operations are located or where their shoes are actually made, according to what makes the most sense to me. This is supposed to be an ongoing effort, so add those that I have missed.

*England*

 -- Just about the most sublime RTW shoe available (Jermyn II) is made by John Lobb Paris. The shoes with the "bevelled bootmaker" soles (Lobb calls them the "Prestige" line) are usually superlative. They're made from skins that are frequently close to bespoke in quality, the lasts typically used (7000 and 8000) are elegant, and the construction is every bit as good as the best machine-made shoes in the world. The regular line isn't as good -- no bevelled waists, some lasts used are less elegant (8695, 9795), etc. -- but they're still excellent shoes. The prices have gotten completely out of control -- nearly $900 for a regular-line cap-toe bal is outrageous, in my humble opinion. The original John Lobb in London started its Paris outpost in 1901. In 1976, the Paris shop was sold to Hermes, along with the exclusive right to market RTW shoes bearing the Lobb name (except in Japan, where there exists a substandard line of shoes called Lobb's that is completely unaffiliated with either JL St. James or JL Paris). JL Paris shoes are made in the former Edward Green factory in Northampton, England, which is why it appears in this section rather than in the French section.
*Edward Green* -- Maker of the second most sublime RTW shoe available (Dover) and user of some wonderfully elegant lasts (82, 808, 888, etc.). EG doesn't make an equivalent to JL Paris's bevelled bootmaker shoes, but their shoes are made to standards equal to or better than JL's regular line shoes. EG is known for the antiquing that they apply to their shoes; they get their skins in a "crust" state, without much if any pigment applied. That allows them to apply a wonderful variegated finish to all of their non-black shoes. I think it's beautiful, but others aren't so enthusiastic. 
*Church's* -- They use a lot of corrected-grain leather, they half-line a lot of their non-summer shoes in linen, and a lot of their shoes have rubber top-lifts. Not very nice, if you ask me, especially at the prices that Church's tries to charge. Church's built the first Northampton shoe factory in the second half of the 19th century.
*Crockett & Jones* -- Crockett & Jones produces two separate lines of shoes. The regular line are solid and well-made are are a good value for the money. The Handgrade shoes are freqently beautiful, particularly if made on the Dimitri Gomez-designed 337 last. The Handgrade shoes retail for perhaps $200 less than Edward Green and appear to be designed to compete with EG. They're good shoes, but I don't think that they're quite there -- the antiquing isn't as good, the last shapes aren't as refined, the standards of construction are just a little bit lower -- but whether you think that they're close enough to make the $200 difference a bargain is an individual decision. In any event, C&J does a tremendous amount of private-label shoe manufacturing at various different quality levels for various different retailers.
 -- This firm's name is a contraction of "William Green and Son," which suggests that once upon a time there might have been some relationship with Edward Green. I'm not certain. This firm is capable of making very high-quality shoes comparable to C&J Handgrade. Grenson used to sell these "Masterpieces" shoes under their own label. Recently, however, Grenson appears to have fallen on hard times and has ceased selling these shoes except as private-label offerings. It's a pity. They were wonderful shoes. The good news is that Stuart's Choice shoes from Paul Stuart are made to the old Masterpieces standards by Grenson. I have never seen any Grenson shoes from the lower lines (Feathermasters and what not), so I can't comment about the level of quality.
 -- Well-made shoes. Some of them are unexciting or made on inelegant lasts, but the quality of construction is very good and the prices are very reasonable.
 -- I have never seen these shoes in the flesh. From their website, it looks like they specialize in low-priced shoes with a high proportion being made from corrected-grain leather. is Barker's attempt to go upmarket. They're certainly distinctive (skull and crossbones medallions and whatnot), but I don't know if they're entirely successful aesthetically.
*Cheaney* -- Cheaney is owned by Church's (at least they were the last time I checked), although I don't think that Cheaney and Church's have cross-pollinated much. The Cheaney shoes that I have seen have been solid, if unexciting.
*Loake* -- Another English maker that I know little about except what I have seen online, and what I have seen online leads me to believe that Loake produces a profusion of cheap, corrected-grain shoes.
*Alfred Sargent* -- Alfred Sargent is another maker that produces private-label merchandise for everybody and another maker with a profusion of different lines of varying quality. The Premier and Premier Exclusive lines appear to be very good and very fairly priced.
 -- I know nothing whatever about Schnieder except that they hold a royal warrant and that most of the footwear they sell is equestrian.
 -- George Cleverley himself used to work in N&L's bespoke operation, as did George Glasgow and John Carnera, the men who inherited Cleverley's name and set up the GJ Cleverley bespoke firm in the early 1990s. Sadly, N&L's bespoke operation is a thing of the past, and most of their shoe offerings appear to be rebadged Grenson and Alfred Sargent shoes. They do have some RTW shoes made from the famous , and I believe, although I am not certain, that those shoes were made by Crockett & Jones.
*Wildsmith* -- Another former bespoke maker with a wonderful past and a somewhat less glorious present. My understanding, although I have never seen the shoes, is that Mr. Wildsmith sells rebadged Edward Green and Crockett & Jones shoes at steep markups.
 -- The sample Cleverley RTW shoes that I have seen are almost certainly made by Crockett & Jones. In fact, a pair of Cleverley bespoke shoes came to me in a RTW box very similar to the light blue box that C&J uses, complete with the last number 337 emblazoned on the side. It is possible that Cleverley uses other makers for some of their models, however.
*Peal* -- Yet another now-defunct but legendary name in bespoke shoemaking. Brooks Brothers acquired the right to market RTW shoes bearing the Peal name from the Peal bespoke company in the early 1950s (JLibourel below places the date in 1953, and I have no reason to doubt him). The Peal bespoke firm later ceased operations in the 1960s, leaving Brooks Brothers with the only Peal-labeled shoes left. The original BB Peal shoes were made by Edward Green, and, if pictures are any guide, were things of beauty, both in quality of construction (is anything from Edward Green anything else) and in last shape, which was a distinctive high-walled banana sort of thing. A few years ago, BB revived the line, this time with shoes made by Crockett & Jones. More recently, other Peal shoes, probably made by Alfred Sargent, have come to dominate BB's Peal offerings. It's worthwhile to note that just because a particular pair of Peal shoes is made by Crockett & Jones, it doesn't mean that those shoes are made to the standards of any particular C&J-labelled shoes. Retailers will specify the quality level of the upper leather, sole leather, and so on in order to bring the shoes in at a particular price; and shoe factories are happy to accommodate them.
*Ralph Lauren* -- As everybody knows, Ralph Lauren does not actually make any shoes. He buys shoes. A lot of them. From a lot of different manufacturers in a lot of different countries. So why am I putting him in the England category? Because the most noteworthy shoes bearing his name are made in England. First are the Polo-labeled English-made shoes. These used to be made by Crockett & Jones, and the models sold were identical to models that appeared in the C&J catalogue. In late 2004 or early 2005, this changed. The models were different. The interior markings were different and were unlike anything I had ever seen from C&J. The soles were channeled instead of stitched aloft as they had been previously. My overall impression was that the quality level of the shoes increased. The price certainly did. In any event, I suspect that these shoes are no longer made by Crockett & Jones. I could certainly be wrong, but the interior markings make me suspicious. Second are what used to be called the Purple Label shoes and what are now labeled Ralph Lauren Made In England. These shoes are made by Edward Green and appear to be of the same quality in every respect to EG-labeled shoes. They do come with laquered, lasted trees, unlike regular EG shoes; and many of them are made on 89 last, which is generally only used for RL shoes. They are often available at considerable discount during RL sales.

*Italy*

 -- Three different levels of quality. Regular-line shoes (now called Studium, I believe) are okay, if a little bit fashion-forward. The Black Label shoes are better. They're all Bologna-constructed, and every so often I see a model that I actually could wear. Most of them are a bit too fashion-forward for my tastes, and the prices (over $700 per pair) are high. The third line is called Amedeo Testoni and consists of Goodyear-welted and Norwegian constructed shoes. These are excellently-made but mostly unattractive to my eyes. They're also extremely expensive for what you're getting. 
 -- Magli has a number of different lines. The only line worth talking about is the Platinum line. They appear to be well made (I think that they're Blake-constructed), but the designs are a bit over-the-top for me. They're also very expensive for the quality. I don't believe that Magli actually owns any production facilities but rather contracts all production out to third parties.
 -- Handmade shoes of impeccable quality. Lattanzi was originally brought to the United States by Louis Boston and is a pioneer here of handmade shoes and very high prices. He's best known for gunboat-sized Norwegian- or Bentivegna-constructed shoes with flashy antiquing, but he can do more subdued styles as well.
 -- Kiton's shoes have a eye-popping antiquing similar to what one sees on Lattanzi shoes, but the last shapes tend to be sleeker and the designs, while unusual, are generally more conservative.
 -- I will admit that I have a soft spot in my heart for Sutor Mantellassi shoes. I love the way that they do Norwegian construction (with a single row of stitching rather than the flashier two braided rows favored by other makers) and their innovative use of skin stitching. Like most Italian producers, Mantellassi has more than one line: a Blake-constructed line of good but not outstanding quality and a Norwegian or Goodyear-constructed line that is of excellent quality.
 -- One of my favorite Italian manufacturers, not because there aren't better producers out there (there are) but because Gravati makes an excellent shoe for a reasonable price and because they are almost infinitely flexible in what they can and will produce. Over the years, I have placed many, many special orders for Gravati shoes, and they are always right and of remarkably consistent quality. Their shoes are mostly Blake- and Blake/Rapid-constructed, but they will make Goodyear-welted shoes on request.
*Borgioli* -- Borgioli is a major producer of private-label shoes, some of which are made to execrable standards of quality and which Borgioli would never want to claim. Hey, they need to survive. The shoes produced under their own label are very good. Most are Blake-constructed. A few are Norwegian-constructed, and they are excellent.
*Romano Martegani* -- Martegani operates a very good Blake and Blake/Rapid factory, and they are endlessly flexible. Gravati will almost never say no to a customer's cockamamie ideas for a shoe, but they will say no sometimes. Martegani won't. These are good, not excellent, shoes offered for a reasonable price. User Ron Rider, formerly the shoe manager at in Richmond, is now the US distributer for Martegani.
 -- Like Bruno Magli, Ferragamo doesn't own any of their own production facilities. Also like Bruno Magli, they market shoes of widely varying qualities. The Studio line shoes are cemented and not worth the money they cost. The Lavarazione Originale line shoes are generally Blake-constructed and are often attractive and well-made, if overpriced. The Tramezza line shoes are Goodyear-welted and are very good. Ferragamo has a joint venture with *Zegna* called Zefer, and Zefer produces all of the Zegna-labelled shoes. I believe, although I am not certain, that Zegna owns the production facilities for these shoes, some of which are very good.
 -- I don't know a whole lot about StefanoBi shoes, but I believe that this was Stefano Branchini's original company and that he sold it to LVMH in the 1990s. The StefanoBi factory apparently produces shoes for all of the LVMH companies, including Berluti. The only pair of StefanoBi shoes that I ever saw (square-toe tan wingtip balmorals) were attractive in a flashy, Italian sort of way. 
* -- If I recall correctly, I believe that Sr. Branchini started this company after he sold StefanoBi to LVMH. I have never seen any of these shoes in the flesh, and I really can't comment on the quality of construction. What I can say is that these shoes, to me, represent everything that is wrong with Italian shoemaking today. They're ugly and over-the-top. It's like Sr. Branchini took all that is excessive about Lattanzi shoes and used it as a toned-down model for what he wanted to do.
[*]Artioli -- I believe, although I am not sure, that Artioni shoes are mostly Bologna-constructed. They look to be well-made and are undoubtedly very flexible. I have two primary complaints with Artioli shoes. First is the leather that they tend to use: it's that glove-leather-looking stuff that Italian shoes were known for in the 1980s. Sure, it's soft, but it doesn't wear very well. Secondly, they have succumbed to the witch's shoes trend: their shoes nowadays tend to have elongated, needle-nose snouts that I think are extremely ugly.
[*] -- Santoni produces many, many different lines of shoes. The Nuvola shoes have natural rubber soles and are decently-constructed and comfortable Blake shoes. The Classic line consists of some Bologna, some Blake, and some Goodyear shoes. The new Bologna models, in particular, are made on a very attractive round-toe last and are extremely flexible. The Fatte a Mano line consists of some Blake and some Goodyear, Norwegian, or Bentivegna shoes. Many of the Fatte a Mano models are, well, ugly, with overly-elongated, pointy, witch's-shoes-looking snouts; but when they're right, they're very, very right. Regardless, while you can complain about the looks of the non-Blake Fatte a Manos, you can't complain about the construction. It's excellent.
[*]Moreschi -- Moreschi is yet another good maker of mid-range Blake-constructed shoes. Much of what they sell is, ah, exuberant. Combinations of blue peccary with blue ostrich leg are to be found. You don't have to buy those. The normal shoes are well-made and reasonably priced. Probably a small step below Gravati in quality of construction, and much below Gravati in flexibility of offerings and receptivity to special orders.
[*] -- I have seen a number of different types of Peluso shoes. The first is a line of Goodyear-welted shoes that look to be well-constructed and fairly-priced. From the website, it appears that these shoes have a gemmed linen feather and are machine-welted just as most English welted shoes. Given the price (under $500 per pair), this is to be expected. Peluso also makes a line of Blake-constructed shoes and yet another line of Blake-constructed shoes sold under the "Peluso for To Boot Adam Derrick" label. Both appear to be relatively well-constructed shoes offered for reasonable prices.
[*]Barrett -- I have never seen a Barrett shoe in person, but their website certainly shows a number of beautiful models. Although the website doesn't specify the construction methods used, it's likely that most of them are Blake or Blake/Rapid constructed, with a few Norwegian models.
[*]Bontoni -- This company has made a recent splash on the US market, getting themselves carried by Louis Boston and Stanley Korshak. The shoes are very much of a piece with a lot of high-end Italian shoes nowadays: a bit clunky, with eye-popping antiquing. If you like that sort of thing, these shoes appear to be well-made versions of the aesthetic. The problem is that they're grossly overpriced. They're Blake/Rapid-constructed, and the channel for the Rapid sole stitching isn't closed. Frankly, the quality of construction is inferior to Gravati or Martegani, in my opinion; and yet the retail price for the calfskin models is nearly $1000 per pair.
[*]Bonora -- Florentine bespoke maker that has branched into RTW. I don't know if these are factory-made shoes of if they are made in Bonora's workshop. Given the prices, I suspect that the former is more likely than the latter. The shoes themselves appear to be mostly Goodyear-welted and staid in their styling.
[*]De Tommaso -- A specialist in handmade Goodyear, Norwegian, and Treccia shoes. See Ron Rider's post below.
[*]Zegna -- A few years ago, Zegna began a joint venture with Ferragamo called Zefer (oh, the originality!) to produce Zegna-labeled shoes. I suspect, although I do not know for sure, that Zegna actually owns the production facilities for these shoes. In any event, they run the gamut from the very ordinary to the very nice. Most of the lower-priced versions are either cemented or Blake-constructed. The top-of-the-line shoes, however, are Goodyear-welted and very attractive. As with a lot of Zegna's products, they are probably overpriced for what they are, but what they are appears to be excellent quality shoes.
*
*

France

JM Weston -- The triple-soled hand-welted Chasse model is amazing and one of the true classic shoes available today. The other shoes aren't made to the same standards, but they are well-made machine-made welted shoes. I don't think that they're quite to EG standards, but they're not priced like EG, either. The Perry-designed Weston shoes are extremely distinctive. People either love them or hate them. I happen to love them. 
Berluti -- I will admit that I feel betrayed by Berluti. Since I became aware of high-end shoes, Berluti's classic Club three-eyelet wholecut has been on my list of sublime RTW shoes. I wanted a pair terribly. Then Barney's started carrying Berluti, and I got to see the shoe in person. Talk about a let-down. There's just nothing special about the construction. Most Berluti shoes are Blake-constructed in the StefanoBi factory in Italy, and, frankly, you can get a better-constructed shoe for $700 less from Gravati. It just doesn't seem right.
Aubercy -- Aubercy's shoes typically are flashy, and I believe that most of the RTW is Blake-constructed in Italy. Nevertheless, I like them. To me, they succeed where Berluti's RTW fails. But that might be just me.
 -- Another maker that I know very little about. According to Ã‰tienne below, Altan's shoes are Blake-constructed, made in Italy, and fashion-forward, concentrating on extreme patination, a la Berluti and others.
 -- I know nothing whatever about the quality or construction methods of these shoes. You can see as much as I can from looking at the pictures on the website. According to Ã‰tienne below, these shoes are Blake-constructed and Italian-made.
Heschung -- Heschung is a specialist in rubber-soled Norwegian-constructed country shoes, although they make a full range of other styles, from driving mocs to dress shoes. For a time, they made some of JL Paris's more casual shoes, although I believe that this has been discontinued. I have very little experience with them, but I have been impressed with the shoes that I have seen, especially for the price. Heschung is based in Alsace; but I believe I have read that they are moving at least some of their production out of France, although to where I can't remember.
 -- I believe that Corthay's initial foray into RTW shoes was composed of a line made for them in Spain. Now, I am told, their RTW shoes are made in a factory outside Paris. I don't know about the standards of production, but the pictures make them look very nice indeed.
Finsbury -- I know nothing about this maker. Help me out, guys.
Bexley -- In what must by now seem like a recurring theme, I don't know a bit about this maker. They offer good-looking Goodyear-welted shoes at good prices, but I have never seen them and know nothing of their quality.
Loding -- This maker seems to be similar to Bexley in that they offer good-looking Goodyear-welted shoes for low prices and that I know nothing about their quality.
 -- More well-priced, attractive Goodyear-welted shoes. Unlike the preceeding two makers, I do know a little bit about Paraboot: people whose opinions I trust tell me that these are well-made. That's about all I know.

Spain

 -- Carmina is shell cordovan specialist, but instead of sticking with the standard deep burgundy Color 8, they like to branch into more exotic colors like green, blue, tomato red, and whiskey. They do make calfskin shoes, too. In the past, Carmina has suffered from inelegant lasts, although over the last two years or so, they have remedied that with the Philly 2 and the Rain. The shoes themselves are Goodyear-welted and may have a slightly lower quality of construction than the very best in the RTW shoe industry; however, they are good shoes that are typically offered at very good prices.
 -- I know very little about Yanko. Others have commented that they make solid, if unexciting Goodyear-welted shoes, and that seems reasonable given the models shown on their website.
Pertini -- According to Ron Rider, currently the US agent for Martegani, formerly the manager of the shoe department at , an excellent independent men's store in Richmond, VA, Pertini shoes are the product of the Igmapa factory. Some of these shoes are Goodyear-welted, although it appears from the pictures on the website that not all of them are. I believe that Ron has said that these shoes offer good value for the money, but other than this statement and the pictures on the website, I know very little about them.

Central and Eastern Europe

Vass -- Vass gets a lot of discussion on the forums, mostly, I think, because Gabor Halmos and Andrew Harris, the faces of Vass in the United States, participate here. That attention is well-deserved. Vass shoes are handmade products made to extremely high standards, and they are works of art. They are among the finest RTW footwear that you can find anywhere, at any price. Their traditional Hungarian lasts are distinctive but not for everybody. Recently, though, they have branched into sleeker last shapes such as the P2 and especially the F and the U, both of the latter developed for the Roberto Ugolini RTW shoes sold in Japan and made by Vass. In case it's not obvious from the preceding, I think the world of Vass shoes and am conflicted about the possibilities of Gabor and Andrew having success in establishing the brand here in the United States only because I fear that it will mean increased prices. For a more extended discussion of Vass shoes, see my post .
 -- St. Crispin's is based in Vienna, although both their bespoke shoes and their RTW shoes are made in Romania. From the descriptions on their website, these are handmade shoes; and I like the look of them very much. The last shapes are Central European, with high walls at the toe; but they're more elegant than, say, Vass's traditional lasts (not F, U, and P2 -- think Peter or 3636) or Dinkelacker's.
Heinrich Dinkelacker -- Aside from Vass, Dinkelacker makes the only legitimate RTW Budapesters with anything like a wide distribution. It's a German company, although I believe that the shoes are made in Humgary. They're not for the faint of heart or for those who want a sleek, minimizing shoe. They're big gunboats, and proud of it. I have never seen any in person, but I like the way they look. If only they were distributed in the US.
Bally -- Bally is a Swiss company, and if their website can be believed, they still maintain a factory in Caslano, Switzerland. Jim Pierce, the owner of the shoe department at Harold's in the Heights in Houston likes to reminisce about how years ago, Bally was the first company that he ordered spec shoes from. Sadly, Bally decided that its future was in becoming a fashion brand, and they degraded their quality and became unwilling to work with independent fiddlers like Jim. What I've seen on their website about their Scribe line of shoes is encouraging, however. The shoes look to be, well, solid, double-soled things; but all the verbiage about construction is right. I hope that this signals a return of Bally to the land of quality shoes.

United States

 -- Along with Allen-Edmonds, one of the two premier US makers of shoes. Alden is a shell cordovan specialist, and their shell cordovan shoes have something of a cult following in Japan and Germany. For the most part, aside from limited production spec shoes made for a few retailers like Alden of Carmel, Alden shoes are extremely conservative, both in design and last shape. The latter is frequently chunky and blob-like, particularly on the shell cordovan models. Alden makes both calfskin and shell cordovan shoes for Brooks Brothers, sold under the Brooks Brothers label.
Allen-Edmonds -- Allen-Edmonds is a much bigger company than Alden, and they're more willing to take risks and bring out new styles, some of which work and some of which are ugly, than is Alden. Their largeness is also the reason why they're easier to find and to find at a discount. I'm not going to get into the whole Alden vs. Allen-Edmonds debate except to say that I don't like Allen-Edmonds' use of 360-degree welting on all of their shoes and that I wish they didn't use uncovered insoles. There is no doubt that Allen-Edmonds makes good-quality shoes and that it would be difficult to go wrong spending $300 on a pair.
 -- I mention Johnston & Murphy here as a general lament about what has happened to US shoe companies. It used to be that J&M, Cole Haan, Stacey Adams (yes, Stacey Adams), Nettleton, and others joined with Alden and Allen-Edmonds to produce excellent welted footwear. One by one, all except Alden and Allen-Edmonds either shut down or shipped production overseas and went downmarket. J&M was the last holdout, but, alas, they couldn't resist forever. A few years ago, they shut down the factory in Tennessee and moved almost all production overseas (except for their Crown Aristocraft line, which continue to be made in the US; I can't say whether they are made in Tennessee or at another US facility). It's a shame, really. If you can find any of the NOS (New Old Stock) J&M Handmades around in your size, snap them up. They will never be made again.

Revision History

3/19/2006 2:45 PM -- Initial verson
3/19/2006 4:50 PM -- Added New & Lingwood, Wildsmith, GJ Cleverley, and Peal.
3/19/2006 6:25 PM -- Added Corthay and Bally.
3/20/2006 7:35 PM -- Added Bontoni, Finsbury, Bexley, Loding, and Paraboot.
3/21/2006 11:15 PM -- Corrected error about history of Peal's relationship with Brooks Brothers.
3/22/2006 7:20 PM -- Added Bonora and De Tommaso; corrected error about Johnston & Murphy; revised entries about Altan and Marc Guyot.
3/28/2006 7:40 PM -- Added link to Vass post; added statement about Gravati constructions.
4/14/2006 10:50 PM -- Added entries for Ralph Lauren and Zegna.
4/15/2006 10:05 PM -- Added entry for Pertini.
*


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## TKDKid

Great stuff.

How about adding this to the ?

Then it's permanently available and others can add comments on brands that they're familiar with.

Ditto with your bespoke shoes post.


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## medwards

Thank you, JC. I know how much work this takes and I -- for one -- am terribly appreciative of your willingness to assemble this...and for your generosity in adding your knowledge and experience to the mix. I do have one small suggestion and that is to find a way to reference those firms who are thought by many to produce RTW shoes but really simply rebadge shoes from other makers (albeit some do have special models reserved for them). I am thinking of New & Lingwood, Wildsmith, Cleverley etc. Given the number of inquiries about these firms and their RWT footwear, it might be helpful to include them either in the annotation about the actual maker or as a separate paragraph. Just a thought for you to consider.

PS...I also like the addition of "revision history" note; I wish I had included that for the Savile Row tailor thread.


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> I do have one small suggestion and that is to find a way to reference those firms who are thought by many to produce RTW shoes but really simply rebadge shoes from other makers (albeit some do have special models reserved for them). I am thinking of New & Lingwood, Wildsmith, Cleverley etc. Given the number of inquiries about these firms and their RWT footwear, it might be helpful to include them either in the annotation about the actual maker or as a separate paragraph. Just a thought for you to consider.


That's a good idea. I'll begin work on it, although it might take some time to complete.



> quote:
> PS...I also like the addition of "revision history" note; I wish I had included that for the Savile Row tailor thread.


The idea was born of frustration in trying to figure what out of a very long post had changed. Hopefully, some one will find it useful.


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## Roger

Yes indeed, thanks, John. I felt a little guilty in suggesting this, knowing how much work it would be for you.

I don't know whether you want to aim for exhaustiveness or to focus on only the larger and better-known makers, but let me throw out a few more makers for you to consider.

I was in Vancouver's only entirely-Italian shoe store yesterday and went in hoping to see some recognizable brands. Alas, no, not a single brand that most would recognize. However, here are the brands that they did carry--all, as far as I can tell, small independent Italian cordwainers: (1) Aldo Brue - decent shoes, not too over-the-top for the most part - prices in the $350 - $400 range; (2) Mauri - fairly nice shoes - lots of exotic skins (croco, ostrich) - $300 range for calf; (3) Mario Giannini - low- to mid-level shoes - $200 range; (4) Vittorio Virgili - decent, not too over-the-top - $250 - $300; (5) Antonio Fagnini - lower-level - $150 range. Note: all prices quoted in US dollars. These shoes were almost entirely Blake constructed with quite thin soles. On the whole, decent shoes (if you ignored the few that were stylistically beyond the pale), but none that I'd buy.

For France, shouldn't Corthay be included, or are they only bespoke?

The brands Mezlan (Italian) and Mephisto (French, I believe) could be added, as they are pretty common.

I guess you have to draw the line somewhere, so may wish to disregard these suggestions.

This listing of RTW shoes is going to be just phenomenally useful. Again, thanks, John. 

_Edit:_ One possible oversight: BALLY shoes. One of the oldest European companies (Swiss, and therefore, belonging in Central and Eastern Europe category - or perhaps a better category label would be "rest of Europe"). Begun in 1851 and continuously run by family until 1977 when it was bought out and began its slide. Purchased by an American company in 1999 and, as far as I know, operating under this ownership today, although headquarters are in Switzerland (close to Milan, where their largest showroom is and runway shows are held). Seems to be making good shoes again (after a decade or so of some pretty bad shoes--painted, corrected-grain leather, glued soles, etc.), with the "Scribe" line their flagship offering. Seem to be well-made, Goodyear-welted shoes, and the line seems to consist of conventional styles (a standard full brogue; a standard perf cap-toe blucher) along with a couple of models that have stylistic touches that won't appeal to everyone.

(Got all this from the Bally website.)

Vancouver


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## Alexander Kabbaz

This is a wonderful article. My compliments, Mr. Cusey, for not only the depth of information, but as well for interesting writing and no fear of providing so many opinions. Why is Indian Walk not on it? 

I do, however, have one important complaint. Roger and I ordered this article yesterday. Why so slow in responding?

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by Roger_
> 
> This listing of RTW shoes is going to be just phenomenally useful. Again, thanks, John.


You're welcome. I hope it will be useful. I have added Corthay and Bally and will work on the rest as time and energy become available.


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## thinman

John,
Many thanks for your posts on RTW and bespoke shoes. They (you) are an incredible resource!

Best regards,
thinman


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## briiian13

Jcusey, thanks, I missed the thread on styleforum with all the clickable links.
This is better and more informative. 
How about adding Lattanzi?


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## DressPRMex

Excellent! Â¡Gracias!


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## shoelovingSwede

make it a sticky, or better yet, Andy should start a small forum for legendary posts. This one and the Row one. Kabbaz treads on shirtings and button sewing. The bespoke shoemaker thread and some more.

only my humble thoughts

JJ


----------



## medwards

Just a few comments to supplement jcuseyâ€™s annotation about *Edward Green*, the company that I personally would place at the top of the ready-to-wear pyramid. I must confess that this placement is not only based on the quality of EGâ€™s craftsmanship and its approach to customer satisfaction, but â€" quite candidly -- because its approach to styling is so very reflective of my own tastes and that I am able to obtain an exceptionally good fit in their shoes. 

Edward Green, of course, is a maker of classic English shoes. The basic approach is rather trim and fitted (EGâ€™s view is that shoes should fit somewhat snugly yet comfortably) with an inherent elegance and a primacy on excellent leathers, fine finishes, and a rich -- often antiqued -- colours. Its range of models is inclusive of most of the traditional British styles. One particularly appealing aspect to the Edward Green approach is that one can order virtually any of these models on any of the appropriate lasts, in a very wide array of leathers and colours, with some slight modifications to fit, and with specified changes in details and styling...all for a rather modest upcharge. Such special orders may take some time to complete, but if one can get a good fit in an Edward Green shoe, this may be a very good alternative to bespoke at a one-third the cost.

The company itself has gone through a number of changes over the past 116 years. The original Green family had the firm for many, many years, but the company eventually fell into decline and was sold to an American investor who took it even further down the path to financial ruin. In 1982, it was purchased by a British shoemaker, John Hlustik, for a single British pound. Under Hlustik, the company regained much of its past lustre, though there were some difficult moments, including having to pilot its way through some rocky shoals when an alliance with Hermes/Lobb did not work out. Hlustikâ€™s unexpected death six years ago took the company to another turning point. Hlustikâ€™s partner, Hilary Freeman, took over the management of the company and promptly recruited Tony Gaziano â€"- who had been apprenticed under Hlustik but who had left in 1996 to specialise in the making of lasts and bespoke shoes with G.J. Cleverley â€" to help rebuild the firmâ€™s reputation for high-quality, ready-to-wear footwear. Mr. Gaziano was responsible for some of EGâ€™s newest and most elegant lasts. About three years ago, Edward Green returned to its custom roots and added a bespoke program under Mr. Gaziano. As one can see elsewhere on this Forum, it now appears that EG will be ending its bespoke operations this autumn and Mr. Gaziano will again be leaving the company...this time to begin his own bespoke shoemaking firm. What implications this might have for Edward Green's future, I cannot say. I do know that today the company continues to make as fine a ready-to-wear shoe as any.


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## Rich

I word about Barker (UK). True, most of Barker's range is not high quality. However, their Anniversary range deserves an honorable mention https://www.barker-shoes.co.uk/(vahifc32hir2cz3kmrhk0dyw)/Default.aspx). These shoes are superior to Loake 1880 in materials and workmanship. The style is a little unusual.


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## Rich

Paraboot must be added to the French list. In addition to making very good rubber soled stylish outdoor footwear, they also make a range of dressier casual shoes that I can thoroughly recommend. Solid construction, good materials, interesting style (EUR 300 - 350)


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## aportnoy

> quote:_Originally posted by medwards_
> 
> One particularly appealing aspect to the Edward Green approach is that one can order virtually any of these models on any of the appropriate lasts, in a very wide array of leathers and colours, with some slight modifications to fit, and with specified changes in details and styling...all for a rather modest upcharge. Such special orders may take some time to complete, but if one can get a good fit in an Edward Green shoe, this may be a very good alternative to bespoke at a one-third the cost.


To Medwards' excellent and comprehensive post I would only add that Green allows you to venture into their past by ordering models and lasts that they no longer regularly produce.


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## culverwood

Another mention for Barkers the Hadley is my favourite casual shoe.


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## Srynerson

Loding could also be added to the French list: https://www.loding.fr


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## Teacher

Bravo! You are a scholar and a gentleman, Mr. Cusey!


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## Rich

> quote:_Originally posted by Srynerson_
> 
> Loding could also be added to the French list: https://www.loding.fr


If you include Loding you ought really to include Finsbury and Bexley too, for good measure.


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## medwards

A *Bexley* link:

https://www.bexley.com/Bexley/accueil.aspx?site=BEXLEY&lang=EN&page=HOME

and *Finsbury*'s:

https://www.finsbury-shoes.com/


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## Rich

> quote:_Originally posted by culverwood_
> 
> Another mention for Barkers the Hadley is my favourite casual shoe.


Still on the subject of Barker, they offer an MTM range called the Platinum Collection (starting price GBP 250) that look very good. It seems to have vanished from their website though. Here are some pictures I saved last year:

https://imageshack.us
https://imageshack.us


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## KenCPollock

The USA is more populous than the UK, Italy, France and Spain combined. Why do we only have two decent shoemakers left? Is it labor costs (but they are just as high in some of the above countries), slovenly dressing (mostly sneakers and sandals are worn here) or the automobile (few Americans walk much anymore)?


----------



## Étienne

> quote:
> *France*
> 
> -- Another maker that I know very little about. Anybody? Anybody?




Two lines are available, the first one prices around 300 euros, the other at 400 (down from 520 before). From what I know, they make a rather fashion-forward shoe. Blake-constructed, made in Italy, with a strong attention put on colour (they add a patina on demand).



> quote:
> [*] -- I know nothing whatever about the quality or construction methods of these shoes. You can see as much as I can from looking at the pictures on the website.


I have seen them in the flesh (or is it in the leather?) and I rather like the leather used. Again, Blake-constructed and Italian-made. Priced around 550 euros.

Further additions could include Emling (a rather respected shoemaker, Marc Guyot now designs their line). If you are going to include Loding, Bexley and Finsbury come to mind in about the same price-range.

An addition for the English part : Shipton and Heanage.

An addition for the Belgian part : Ambiorix (sell shoes under their own label and produce a lot for other labels).


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## Concordia

A note about Wildsmith: he is semi-retired and has a less-than-good reputation on these boards, in part because of some comments made a long time ago by Him Who Must Not Be Named. Nevertheless, he does sell some good shoes-- my first pair of Edward Green 88s (not 888s, but the older last) came from him. I wish I'd known how good they were-- I'd have taken better care of them. 

Prices on his current tour-- which he makes in company with Hilditch & Key-- are $850 for one pair and $500 for the second pair. Good value if you're getting Greens out of the deal. I seem to remember that when I started with him, prices were a fair bit more than standard US shoes (say, 2x Allen Edmonds), and a little more than decent English shoes (as Churches were at that time) but so much below bespoke that I didn't kick about them. $450-650 was the range I seem to remember, depending on the plight of the dollar. That might have been a "steep markup," but I don't think so.

The frustration about dealing with him was that you never did really know what you were going to get. Early on, I got used to pointing at a model and saying "I want that in brown/burgundy/black/whatever" and having it arrive pretty much as I wanted. Neat stuff for a guy who had never had shoes that fit really well, as these did. Then there were some other Green lasts thrown in, or maybe a C&J. Fit was almost never wrong, but not reliably good, either. He never did level with me about how he structured his product line. If he'd been more candid about his suppliers, lasts available, etc., he could have caught much of the wave that is pushing Edward Green's current reputation so high. As it is, my most recent pair of 88s were ordered through Saks at the trunk show, when I was able to have an adjustment made to the instep by Green's travelling fitter. If I ever get another, I'll be likely going direct through London.


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## Étienne

> quote:_Originally posted by jcusey_
> [*]*Heschung* -- (...) Heschung is based in Alsace; but I believe I have read that they are moving at least some of their production out of France, although to where I can't remember.


From what I've heard, Hungary.


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## bystander

jcusey, you have provided a fine tool for those of us who plan to indulge in RTW shoes with some regularity. Do you think Ducker & Son, Turl St, Oxford, ought to be included in your list of RTW?


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## bigCat

> quote:_Originally posted by kencpollock_
> 
> The USA is more populous than the UK, Italy, France and Spain combined. Why do we only have two decent shoemakers left? Is it labor costs (but they are just as high in some of the above countries), slovenly dressing (mostly sneakers and sandals are worn here) or the automobile (few Americans walk much anynmore)?


I think that jcusey's (and yes, jcusey, thank you for this post) blurb about J&M tells a part of the story. Of course casual trends in this country, play the role too.

But I would also add a success and volume of Alden and especially AE as another factor that contributed. I don't have firm numbers but if you add the volume of comparable lines (let's say C&J benchgrades, AS, basic SF lines, etc.) you would be in the similar ballpark, volume wise. Although there are only 2 makers, their volume is proportional to the population.

AE's distibution network is vast. It seems that it would be the easiest shoe to find (at least in USA) form all of the names on the list.

-Ex falso quodlibet-


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## iammatt

I believe that Bonora, who makes some terrific English styled Italian shoes, is returning to the US market this year. They do mainly goodyear construction with some Norvegese. I would put them a notch below the Kiton and Lattanzi tier as far as workmanship (on par with Mantellassi), and the styling is a bit more like Kiton. Prices are similar to EG and JL if I remember correctly.


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## GaryTX

jcusey...

_Johnston & Murphy -- I mention Johnston & Murphy here as a general lament about what has happened to US shoe companies. It used to be that J&M, Cole Haan, Stacey Adams (yes, Stacey Adams), Nettleton, and others joined with Alden and Allen-Edmonds to produce excellent welted footwear. One by one, all except Alden and Allen-Edmonds either shut down or shipped production overseas and went downmarket. J&M was the last holdout, but, alas, they couldn't resist forever. A few years ago, they shut down the factory in Tennessee and moved all production overseas. It's a shame, really. If you can find any of the NOS (New Old Stock) J&M Handmades around in your size, snap them up. They will never be made again._

--------------------

Since this is my first post, I'll start by saying, *Most Respectively*...

It's true that J&M shut down the old Tennessee plant, and most of their shoes now come from Mexico and Europe. They do, however, still produce one line of shoes (3 styles) here in the USA. It's called the Crown Aristocrat line.


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## indylion

jcusey, thanks again.

"The third line is called Amedeo Testoni and consists of Goodyear-welted and Norwegian constructed shoes. These are excellently-made but mostly unattractive to my eyes. They're also extremely expensive for what you're getting."

I think the Amedeo line has only been around 1 or 2 years. Prior to that, some of the Black Label line were also Goodyear-welted & Norwegian constructed shoes. 



"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten" Stefano Bemer


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## JLibourel

Allow me to add my belated congratulations for a fine piece of work, John! 

I did have one question, though: My understanding, gleaned solely from these fora, is that Brooks licensed the Peal name for the RTW shoes they wished to market from the bespoke London shoemaker in 1953 while the firm was still active and that the bespoke Peal continued in existence for some years thereafter, folding in the late '50s or early '60s. Am I mistaken in this?


----------



## Trimmer

> _Originally posted by jcusey_b]Finsbury -- I know nothing about this maker. Help me out, guys.
> [/size=1]
> [/quote}
> 
> I am very satisfied with a couple of pairs I bought from Finsbury last month. The very helpful and friendly (English speaking staff) at their St Paul (Marais) branch were knowledgeable about shoes and told me they were made by Grenson to their own ("italian") design. They are certainly more elegant than Grensons I have seen on sale in the UK.
> 
> Trimmer


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## David Bresch

I have two questions (for now):

1) Does Martigani make Norwegian or Bentivegna shoes at all?

2) Which was the manufacturer that Ron Rider once claimed was the best RTW shoemaker in Italy (and I may be misstating what he actually wrote, I can't remember, but it was not a readily recognizable name).


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## Syringemouth

Thanks for the post. This was very interesting.


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## Threepwood

I visited the showroom at loveless shoes here in oklahoma City today.
I have exclusively purchased allen edmonds shoes for the last 20 years. I became interested in "bespoke" shoes since I started lurking on this forum about a month ago. Mr. Loveless met me in his lab coat and explained his custom process. All of the loveless shoes are made to the same medical standards as the support shoes they make for diabetics. A wide range of skins were avialble to choose from. I intended to have a pair of monk strap chuks made in french calf. Kangaroo appeared to be a much softer and attractive hide. Mr. Loveless is a fan of Kangaroo over calf. They also sell a lot of alligator product. They keep a number of catalogs from the popular shoe companies and claim to be able to match any style of shoe. I will order my first pair this week and post pictures of the finished product. The finished product on display had a distinct hand made look to it. The shoes on display did not look "perfect". When I look at the best ferragamo, Alden or Allen Edmonds shoes they seem to have perfectly straight lines and seams. These shoes didnt have the same high art feel. Ive got a picture of a pair of Grenson shoes that I want to have copied. Time will tell.


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## Will

"My understanding, gleaned solely from these fora, is that Brooks licensed the Peal name for the RTW shoes they wished to market from the bespoke London shoemaker in 1953 while the firm was still active and that the bespoke Peal continued in existence for some years thereafter, folding in the late '50s or early '60s. Am I mistaken in this?"

It is my understanding the BBC bought the lasts for the Peal models they wished to continue when that firm folded. Edward Green made the shoes for BBC for some years under that name and at least two models, the Chelsea and the Wigmore, live on in the Edward Green line as higher quality offerings than the current line of Peal shoes sold by BBC.





------------------------
Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


----------



## JLibourel

> quote:_Originally posted by Will_
> 
> "My understanding, gleaned solely from these fora, is that Brooks licensed the Peal name for the RTW shoes they wished to market from the bespoke London shoemaker in 1953 while the firm was still active and that the bespoke Peal continued in existence for some years thereafter, folding in the late '50s or early '60s. Am I mistaken in this?"
> 
> It is my understanding the BBC bought the lasts for the Peal models they wished to continue when that firm folded. Edward Green made the shoes for BBC for some years under that name and at least two models, the Chelsea and the Wigmore, live on in the Edward Green line as higher quality offerings than the current line of Peal shoes sold by BBC.
> 
> ------------------------
> Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


If Peal was a true bespoke outfit like Lobb St. James, would there have been any "Peal lasts"? I would assume an individual last was created to correspond to each customer's foot.


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> I did have one question, though: My understanding, gleaned solely from these fora, is that Brooks licensed the Peal name for the RTW shoes they wished to market from the bespoke London shoemaker in 1953 while the firm was still active and that the bespoke Peal continued in existence for some years thereafter, folding in the late '50s or early '60s. Am I mistaken in this?


Some further research (translation: asking someone who knows far more about this than I do) has shown me that I was mistaken and that you are correct. The original post has been fixed.


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> If Peal was a true bespoke outfit like Lobb St. James, would there have been any "Peal lasts"? I would assume an individual last was created to correspond to each customer's foot.


Well, just as GJ Cleverley or Tony Gaziano have a preferred last shape (although they are willing and able to make others), my understanding is that Peal did as well. From what I have read, the typical Peal last was round-toed and banana-shaped (ie, straight on the inside of the foot, very curved on the outside of the foot) with high walls in the toe area (ie, the wall is perpendicular to the sole, and the top of the shoe is relatively flat).


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## comrade

Two Additional Bands:

Ludwig Reiter, Vienna

Reitstiefel-Kempens, Germany


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## rider

> quote:
> 1) Does Martigani make Norwegian or Bentivegna shoes at all?


Funny this question came up, as I have seen this thread and wanted to offer additions to the Italian listings, but have not had time the last few days. As a matter of fact, while in Italy for the last week, I organized 2 additions to our offerings which we will work on over the summer and begin offering in the Fall.

1) Genuine, handmade (in the lap, to be clear), Norvegese and Treccia constructions.
2) Genuine, handmade (again, in the lap) Goodyear welt constructions.

In the past, the 'Norvegese' that the Martegani factory had produced was more of a design feature than a true construction - something I did not care for, or offered. Now, in partnership with De Tommaso, we will be producing models and taking special requests in all three of these constructions. The leathers, patterns, lasts, etc. will all be Martegani while the lasting, welting, insole carving, and sole work will all be done in the De Tomasso workshop. The final finishing and delivery will be from Martegani. Basically, we don't have the time or the people to do this labor intensive work, so we are working with this wonderful workshop to produce these constructions. It's a combination of strengths, and should be very interesting.

While organizing this, I learned quite a bit that I only thought I know about these constructions...I knew the basics, of course, but had never seen the actual work preformed, and how much effort and time is dedicated to doing this work properly. I was very impressed. Also, the workers are very proud of the final results, and there is a strict code as to what can and what cannot be done, to produce 'Classic' Norvegese, Treccia and Goodyear shoes. Example, (and this is a part answer to Dr. Breschs' next question) when I asked about changing the stitch patterns to mimic what Lattanzi produces, I was almost asked to leave and the whole deal done. Lattanzi has a very good reputation outside of Italy, and I know I have made a comment or two in the past that inside of Italy Branchini is recognized as the originator of the Norvegese work as a sellable constuction, but is considered to be a bit 'frivilous' by the more 'purist' workshops inside of Italy. This was pointed out to me very sharply here as it was pointed out to me numerous different weakness' in the Lattanzi shoes that adhering to the basic principles would not allow. Frankly, I think they take it a little too serious, but I did not push the issue, as I was outnumbered, and they had knives. Anyway, Genuine Norvegese Construction can only be done in straight lines and with a single stitch with two needles on either end of the thread. Treccia is where 3 stitches are used in a woven pattern, which we generally call here 'Norvegese'. Genuine Goodyear has been explained over and over here, and there is no disagreement as to what this involves - see Vass. Anyway, this is what this workshop believes in, and we will say the same, as Martegani will begin offering these constructions during the next season. You can make your own decisions as to what is valuable or not...please don't take these comments as a knock on Lattanzi, as I like them quite well and believe they are excellent shoes - we will just not be able to offer the varying stitch patterns, as we will adhere to the 'purists' view.

Finally, I have a few Italian manufacturers that I think deserve a place on this list, and will add comments later when I have some more time.

VERY GOOD WORK, JOHN!

Ron

www.rm1891.com


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## TKDKid

> quote:_Originally posted by jcusey_
> 
> [*] -- The sample Cleverley RTW shoes that I have seen are almost certainly made by Crockett & Jones. In fact, a pair of Cleverley bespoke shoes came to me in a RTW box very similar to the light blue box that C&J uses, complete with the last number 337 emblazoned on the side. It is possible that Cleverley uses other makers for some of their models, however.


Agreed - factory rejects of (some) Cleverley RTW shoes are available at the C&J factory shop in Northampton.



> quote:
> 
> [*] -- George Cleverley himself used to work in N&L's bespoke operation, as did George Glasgow and John Carnera, the men who inherited Cleverley's name and set up the GJ Cleverley bespoke firm in the early 1990s. Sadly, N&L's bespoke operation is a thing of the past, and most of their shoe offerings appear to be rebadged Grenson and Alfred Sargent shoes. They do have some RTW shoes made from the famous , and I believe, although I am not certain, that those shoes were made by Crockett & Jones.


I've certainly seen N&L shoeboxes at the C&J factory shop, although not the shoes themselves. Would be nice to pick up a pair of Russian reindeer shoes, even as factory rejects.


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by GaryTX_
> 
> It's true that J&M shut down the old Tennessee plant, and most of their shoes now come from Mexico and Europe. They do, however, still produce one line of shoes (3 styles) here in the USA. It's called the Crown Aristocrat line.


I stopped by my local J&M store, and, sure enough, the Crown Aristrocraft shoes are made in the US. I have corrected the original post.


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## rider

If I can offer a few additions to the Italian section -

*Speroni* - Artioli without the marketing campaigns...and price to pay for them. Makes the shoes for Br.... Always 'Classic' shoes in numerous constructions.

*Enzo Bonafe* - One of the best RTW manufacturers, period. Luxury quality with a large archive and ability to customize product. Like most of the better Italian manufacturers, sells mostly in the Far East.

*Nipmar*- High quality...all the basics....all the constructions.

*Calz. Walles*- Another quality manufacturer with a large archive...particularly good with exotics.

*Alexander Nicolette*- shop and manufacturer in Parma who does 'Classic with a twist'.

*Lidfort*- Classic, simple Blake shoes of very good quality.

The list goes on and on....others of note:

Ducal/Florence (very elegant)
Zenobi (light, but nice)
Harris (good job with the heavier models)
Campanile (Canali, among others)
Bevilacqua (a little over-the-top, but made well and interesting)
Romit (Valentino)

www.rm1891.com


----------



## ROI

This thread is a model of what I find rewarding in reading AA. Thank you all for your contributions, large or small.

I can add a little about the Peal-Brooks relationship, though it is third-hand by way of Brooks' recent history of itself, *Generations of Style*.

"Brooks received its first agency appointment in Peal's long history; when Peal & Company felt it could no longer find workmen skilled enough to create their shoes, the company regretfully closed their doors in 1964, at which time the Peal name, along with its lasts and patterns, were sold to Brooks Brothers."

On the facing page is a photograph of a brief letter on Peal & Co. Ltd stationery addressed to John Wood, then president of Brooks Brothers. It starts, "On the occasion of handing over our name to your Company, we would like to express to you, and your Board of Management, our good wishes for the future. We are happy to see our name pass into good hands." The letter is signed by the four directors of Peal & Co., all with the surname Peal. The letter is dated "4th January, 1965."

A caption on the same page as the letter and beneath a photo of a display of shoes says, "Throughout much of the 20th century, Brooks enjoyed an exclusive licensing agreement with the distinguished London firm of Peal & Company....American's seeking Peal's ready-made shoes could find them only at Brooks Brothers."

Depending on how rigorously you interpret "agency appointment" and "licensing agreement," you could conclude either that Brooks was Peal's agent selling shoes made by Peal, or that Brooks was licensed to use Peal's name on shoes of other manufacture. Did Peal make "Peal's ready-made shoes?" Was Peal unable to find enough skilled workers to maintain a custom shop, or a factory?

In either case, it's clear that Peal had stopped making shoes for anyone by 1965, when Brooks bought its earthly remains. Exactly when the association between Peal and Brooks began remains obscure.


----------



## ROI

_Originally posted by Will_
It is my understanding the BBC bought the lasts for the Peal models they wished to continue when that firm folded. Edward Green made the shoes for BBC for some years under that name and at least two models, the Chelsea and the Wigmore, live on in the Edward Green line as higher quality offerings than the current line of Peal shoes sold by BBC.

One other curiosity about the Peal letter to Brooks: The address for Peal was 48 Wigmore Street, London W.1.


----------



## ROI

More. I scanned a *New York Times* database. The first mention of Peal in a Brooks Brothers advertisement dates from 1933. It was for Peal Luggage. Another ad appeared the same year mentioning Peal shoes.


----------



## JLibourel

The 1953 date ascribed to me for the inception of the Brooks-Peal line of RTW shoes comes from a Brooks advertisement that appeared in the LA Times. My understanding of the matter has been that Peal was strictly a bespoke outfit that licensed their name to Brooks and never made RTW shoes of any sort.


----------



## indylion

Peron & Peron Calzolai shoes? Any feedback concerning the quality and prices? They look good in the photos. Are they sold in the USA?

Thanks,

"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten" Stefano Bemer


----------



## hspc

Nice to have threads like this one and the one about savile row tailors, would somebody be kindly enough to do something similar on jermyn street shirts.


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## Rich

> quote:_Originally posted by hspc_
> 
> Nice to have threads like this one and the one about savile row tailors, would somebody be kindly enough to do something similar on jermyn street shirts.


There was one - or two. Someone may have saved it.


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## David Bresch

Any possibility that a note can be made of the brand's availability, particularly the Italian ones?


----------



## David Bresch

Any updates about De Tomaso shoes?


----------



## Étienne

> quote:_Originally posted by hspc_
> would somebody be kindly enough to do something similar on jermyn street shirts.


On another forum, there was recently a fairly comprehensive list made:


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by David Bresch_
> 
> Any updates about De Tomaso shoes?


I know nothing other than what I wrote and what Ron Rider mentioned in his post. There is, however, a layout about De Tommaso in Vol. 7 of Last magazine.


----------



## cd2np

Would appreciate thoughts on Pertini's standings in the RTW shoe world. This might be a question for Ron, actually... (BTW, I am currently saving for the upcoming Martegani event at Francos!)
-fellow Richmonder!

THANKS!


----------



## JLibourel

As long as this thread has been resurrected, has anyone found out who has replaced C&J as the vendor for Ralph Lauren's less expensive (non RLPL, non-EG) shoes? The sales staff at the South Coast Polo Shop seem to be very dim about all this. There can't be too many other candidates, can there? Grenson and Sargent would seem to be the most likely. I only know Sargent from their Brooks-Peal shoes, which I gather are made to higher quality standards than most of the products, and I have never personally laid eyes on a pair of Grensons.


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## GT3

Thank You jcusey, I find this forum incredible becuase of people like you, Alex Kabbaz and others. My only regret is that I have nothing to offer... Yet.


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by cd2np_
> 
> Would appreciate thoughts on Pertini's standings in the RTW shoe world. This might be a question for Ron, actually... (BTW, I am currently saving for the upcoming Martegani event at Francos!)
> -fellow Richmonder!


I have added an entry for Pertini, but I have to confess that I have never seen the shoes in person and that everything I know about them comes from Ron Rider. My impression is that they are good value for the money but a step below Yanko and two below Carmina among quality Spanish shoes.


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## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> As long as this thread has been resurrected, has anyone found out who has replaced C&J as the vendor for Ralph Lauren's less expensive (non RLPL, non-EG) shoes? The sales staff at the South Coast Polo Shop seem to be very dim about all this. There can't be too many other candidates, can there? Grenson and Sargent would seem to be the most likely. I only know Sargent from their Brooks-Peal shoes, which I gather are made to higher quality standards than most of the products, and I have never personally laid eyes on a pair of Grensons.


Well, they don't look like any C&J, Sargent, or Grenson shoes that I have ever seen. That's not dispositive, however. They certainly could be made by any of these three manufacturers, or, indeed, any of the other Northampton manufacturers. Even the ones that ordinarily do not make shoes of that level of quality know how to do it.


----------



## DocHolliday

> quote:_Originally posted by jcusey_
> 
> I have added an entry for Pertini, but I have to confess that I have never seen the shoes in person and that everything I know about them comes from Ron Rider. My impression is that they are good value for the money but a step below Yanko and two below Carmina among quality Spanish shoes.


I have seen a pair of pebble-grain Pertinis in person. At a glance, they seemed nice for the relatively low price. But I have heard rumblings that Pertini is making some fairly significant changes in its production, and talk that Franco's is dropping the line. Perhaps Ron will have more information.


----------



## medwards

> quote:_Originally posted by jcusey_
> *France*
> 
> *JM Weston* -- The triple-soled hand-welted Chasse model is amazing and one of the true classic shoes available today. The other shoes aren't made to the same standards, but they are well-made machine-made welted shoes. I don't think that they're quite to EG standards, but they're not priced like EG, either. The Perry-designed Weston shoes are extremely distinctive. People either love them or hate them. I happen to love them.





An interesting piece on Weston on departures.com last year:


----------



## tmack3

does anybody know the quality of cheaney shoes? i like the avant garde shoes. also, are their shoes sold in the usa?


----------



## WinstonSpencer

So very relevant and important. Thank you jcusey for the information.

WSS


----------



## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by tmack3_
> 
> does anybody know the quality of cheaney shoes?


As I said in the initial post, the Cheaney shoes that I have seen have been solid but unexciting. Some use corrected-grain leather, most do not. All are well-made.



> quote:
> also, are their shoes sold in the usa?


In the past, Saks in NYC carried Cheaney. I don't know if they still do. I do know that at least some Church's stores in the US (including the Houston store) carry some Cheaney shoes.


----------



## rider

> quote: Any updates about De Tomaso shoes?


The de Tomasso/R Martegani initial collection should be available by September of this year.



> quote: As long as this thread has been resurrected, has anyone found out who has replaced C&J as the vendor for Ralph Lauren's less expensive (non RLPL, non-EG) shoes?


Sanders & Sanders



> quote: Would appreciate thoughts on Pertini's standings in the RTW shoe world.


Pertini manufacturers a 'good' shoe - nothing special, but solid and at a good value. The welted models are above average if durability is the main concern.

www.rm1891.com


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox

> quote:_Originally posted by rider_
> 
> 
> 
> quote: As long as this thread has been resurrected, has anyone found out who has replaced C&J as the vendor for Ralph Lauren's less expensive (non RLPL, non-EG) shoes?
> 
> 
> 
> Sanders & Sanders
Click to expand...

And what can you tell us about this maker? Is this an American or British firm? Are their shoes available elsewhere? Enquiring minds want to know.

Mr. Chatterbox
London Daily Excess


----------



## medwards

Sanders & Sanders Ltd. is a British firm, established in 1873. The firm doesn't really have a website (just a page with its logo and contact information -- https://www.sanders-uk.com/), but you can email them at [email protected]. If you are looking for an overview of the styles that S&S produces, you might want to take a look at the Sanders & Sanders pages on the Pediwear site:

https://www.pediwear.co.uk/sanders.php

Sanders does make for others, including E.T. Wright and Shipton & Heneage.


----------



## Alboreto

I always thought Artioli was French. Am I wrong?

festina lente


----------



## Dolle Dolf

Should this thread be a sticky? I think so, like the Savile Row tailors thread.


----------



## jcusey

> quote:_Originally posted by Alboreto_
> 
> I always thought Artioli was French. Am I wrong?


Perhaps you're thinking of Berluti, which is indeed a French company (although the RTW shoes are made in Italy). Artioli is all Italian.


----------



## David Bresch

Could we have pictures and/or any more information about De Tommaso?


----------



## Alboreto

> quote:_Originally posted by jcusey_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:_Originally posted by Alboreto_
> 
> I always thought Artioli was French. Am I wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you're thinking of Berluti, which is indeed a French company (although the RTW shoes are made in Italy). Artioli is all Italian.
Click to expand...

And the founder of Berluti was an Italian by birth. I know . No, I really thought Artioli was French. Nice to have learned something new again.

festina lente


----------



## SGladwell

Great thread, JCusey, if you could add some stuff in your original post about the following shoemakers, I think it would improve it even more:

Ludwig Reiter: Family-owned Austrian shoemaker that since 1885 has done Central European (high toebox, etc.) shoes with 360-degree Goodyear welts. (At least, all mine are 360-deg welts.)

Georg Materna: Viennese shoemaker who does excellent RTW as well as some of the nicest, "cheapest" (assuming four figure shoes can ever be cheap) custom models I've ever seen.

Ed Meier: Munich shoe marketer (don't know who makes them) that offers two very nice lines of shoes.


----------



## David Bresch

Any chance we cab have photos of the Martigani De Tomasos?


----------



## CHC

Quite an impressive list! Thank you very much, excellent guide in terms of what to watch out for. Again, thanks.


----------



## constantmystery

*who used to make sulka's shoes*

Before their closing, I had the folks at Sulka whip me up a pair of tan pebble grain (alpine grain) bluchers that were really fantastic! I know they were made in italy from a mesurement of my foot...and they turned out pefectly. I wish I had bought two pair! They were about 450. or so at the time and I'm rather curious


----------



## medwards

*John Lobb Factory Sales, Rejects & Seconds*



jcusey said:


> -- Just about the most sublime RTW shoe available (Jermyn II) is made by John Lobb Paris. The shoes with the "bevelled bootmaker" soles (Lobb calls them the "Prestige" line) are usually superlative. They're made from skins that are frequently close to bespoke in quality, the lasts typically used (7000 and 8000) are elegant, and the construction is every bit as good as the best machine-made shoes in the world. The regular line isn't as good -- no bevelled waists, some lasts used are less elegant (8695, 9795), etc. -- but they're still excellent shoes. The prices have gotten completely out of control -- nearly $900 for a regular-line cap-toe bal is outrageous, in my humble opinion. The original John Lobb in London started its Paris outpost in 1901. In 1976, the Paris shop was sold to Hermes, along with the exclusive right to market RTW shoes bearing the Lobb name (except in Japan, where there exists a substandard line of shoes called Lobb's that is completely unaffiliated with either JL St. James or JL Paris). JL Paris shoes are made in the former Edward Green factory in Northampton, England, which is why it appears in this section rather than in the French section.





Given the price of John Lobb shoes, there has always been a healthy interest in JL's factory sales and eBay purchases. This has raised questions about how one would recognize a John Lobb reject, second, or discontinued model. This linked recent thread is quite helpful in this regard and given its relationship to this broader discussion, I thought it might be appropriate to incorporate it here as well. Edward Green and Crockett & Jones shoes are also covered:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=54247&page=2&pp=25


----------



## Harrydog

*Borgioli Link*

Here is the link to the Borgioli home page:


----------



## Lino

kencpollock said:


> The USA is more populous than the UK, Italy, France and Spain combined. Why do we only have two decent shoemakers left? Is it labor costs (but they are just as high in some of the above countries), slovenly dressing (mostly sneakers and sandals are worn here) or the automobile (few Americans walk much anymore)?


Short term profit goals guiding business practices.


----------



## jcusey

Lino said:


> Short term profit goals guiding business practices.


I don't think that that's quite fair. The problem isn't that J&M, Cole Haan, Nettleton, and others either moved production offshore or ceased production altogether not because their profits were too small for their owners' taste. The problem is that they couldn't make a profit at all. The shoe business is notoriously tough -- Spanish and Italian makers have lower labor costs, to say nothing of what the Chinese can do. Allen-Edmonds had to alter their production process completely a couple of years ago to avoid having to move production abroad, and the only reason that Alden still survives is that the Germans and Japanese developed a shell cordovan fetish in the '80s.


----------



## Lino

jcusey said:


> I don't think that that's quite fair. The problem isn't that J&M, Cole Haan, Nettleton, and others either moved production offshore or ceased production altogether not because their profits were too small for their owners' taste. The problem is that they couldn't make a profit at all. The shoe business is notoriously tough -- Spanish and Italian makers have lower labor costs, to say nothing of what the Chinese can do. Allen-Edmonds had to alter their production process completely a couple of years ago to avoid having to move production abroad, and the only reason that Alden still survives is that the Germans and Japanese developed a shell cordovan fetish in the '80s.


But you put your finger on it.

AE took a long term approach to the problem, they thought outside the box and came up with a solution that allows them to keep control of their manufacturing (many times when a company goes offshore they do not build a factory, but hire someone another producer). AE may suffer lower profits in the near term, but if the dollar continues to weaken and fuel prices keep going up, they will come out ahead in the long-run.

Western European makers are not a threat to US production. Between labor costs, higher business costs and taxes, and the stronger Euro, European made shoes in the same quality range as AE's are priced about the same or more.

Companies that go offshore do so to gain short term profits by cutting costs. The problem is that you only get to do that once, and once you have done it, it is not something easily reversed.

Lastly, we are not talking about low-end shoes, but the middle range and up. There should be enough profit to cover production domestically and enough to go around to everyone, from share-holders to workers. For a worker to produce a quality product, I think that worker needs to work at the level of a craftsman and take pride in their creations, as such, they should be paid well for their work-quality can not come from a sweat-shop. Mechanization of production is another story, but you can mechanize here in the US, so it is irrelizant to the discussion-but then we may already be going off topic.


----------



## acidicboy

anyone had experience with magnanni's before? i bought a couple of pairs on sale last week, one is a penny loafer in some kind of brown/olive color, and the other is a monk strap variation in their "artesano" line (some forum guys call it the 'frankenstein' shoes!  ) appears that its a spanish brand (i always thought it was italian prior to this)


----------



## jcusey

Lino said:


> AE took a long term approach to the problem, they thought outside the box and came up with a solution that allows them to keep control of their manufacturing (many times when a company goes offshore they do not build a factory, but hire someone another producer). AE may suffer lower profits in the near term, but if the dollar continues to weaken and fuel prices keep going up, they will come out ahead in the long-run.


Frankly, it's much to early to know how it's going to turn out. I would expect that the Allen-Edmonds will continue to experience considerable pressure on their bottom line. Remember, they're not selling the vast majority of their shoes outside of the US, so any weakness in the dollar will not help them. In fact, it would tend to hurt them because they have to import the majority of the leather that they use.



> Western European makers are not a threat to US production. Between labor costs, higher business costs and taxes, and the stronger Euro, European made shoes in the same quality range as AE's are priced about the same or more.


There are a number of Spanish and Italian makers who can produce better shoes than AE can at US retail prices that are very competitive with AE (Carmina, Pertini, Martegani, and others come to mind), and that's with importation costs and duties and the crappy exchange rate. Imagine what the situation would be if the Euro fell to $0.77 again, or even $1.10. Will these makers, either individually or cummulatively, be able to match AE in volume sold in the US? No, of course not. But the profit margin on shoes is slim. Facing intense competition on the high end from Europe and on the low end from Mexico, India, Brazil, and China is not the best position to be in.

Perhaps this is just my perception due to the constant attention that it gets on these forums, but it seems that AE has responded to the low-end competition by opening outlets to sell its seconds and discontinued models for significantly below AE retail prices. Well, doing that puts pressure on the bottom line, too, because it makes people less willing to pay full retail price for the shoes.

None of this is intended to disparage AE in any way. I hope they can make their business work for many, many years. However, my point is that the shoe business in the United States is extremely difficult; and platitudes about "taking the long view about profits" and "thinking outside the box" doesn't change that fact. If Cole Haan and Nettleton and Johnston & Murphy concluded that they couldn't remain profitable and maintain production in the US, we should take their judgments seriously. That doesn't mean that they were right, but they can't be dismissed out of hand as being short-sighted.



> Lastly, we are not talking about low-end shoes, but the middle range and up. There should be enough profit to cover production domestically and enough to go around to everyone, from share-holders to workers. For a worker to produce a quality product, I think that worker needs to work at the level of a craftsman and take pride in their creations, as such, they should be paid well for their work-quality can not come from a sweat-shop. Mechanization of production is another story, but you can mechanize here in the US, so it is irrelizant to the discussion-but then we may already be going off topic.


Have you seen the financial statements of a shoe company of the middle or upper rank? I can assure you that they are not making money hand over fist. I don't know about Allen-Edmonds or Alden, but the ones that I have seen make it clear that it's a rare shoe company that's awash in cash.


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz

jcusey said:


> Have you seen the financial statements of a shoe company of the middle or upper rank? I can assure you that they are not making money hand over fist. I don't know about Allen-Edmonds or Alden, but the ones that I have seen make it clear that it's a rare shoe company that's awash in cash.


 You tell it, baby! You can substitute the word "shirt" for "shoe" and the theory remains true.

Here's the salient fact: My shirt/shoe may be 25% better that John Doe's shirt/shoe but it will cost me 100+% more to achieve that 25% quality increase.


----------



## Roger

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> You tell it, baby! You can substitute the word "shirt" for "shoe" and the theory remains true.
> 
> Here's the salient fact: My shirt/shoe may be 25% better that John Doe's shirt/shoe but it will cost me 100+% more to achieve that 25% quality increase.


But isn't that when you charge 200%+ more when you sell it? :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## Roger

John, I was just looking back at some information in this super-useful thread and noticed that you suggested that New & Lingwood's RTW shoes were mainly rebadged Grensons and Alfred Sargents. I think that there's no doubt that their St. James' line consists of rebadged Grenson Masterpieces (at what I'd consider pretty high prices--327 GBP ex VAT, or about $600US plus shipping), but at least up until last summer, their Classic line shoes were rebadged C&J regular lines (Benchgrades). This was confirmed for me by a N&L sales rep last summer, although it is possible that the situation has changed over the past year. I'd tend to doubt it, though, since the particular models are identical this summer to what was there last summer. Incidentally, these regular-line C&Js (if that's, in fact, what they are) are a pretty good buy, in my opinion, at their summer-sale price of 185 GBP, 153 ex VAT. This puts them at about $280 US plus shipping.


----------



## Trimmer

*New and Lingwood*

During the January sales I was told by an assistant at New and Lingwood that their shoes were all made by Grenson, Sargent or Crockett and Jones.

Last week I bought a pair of their classics in the sale at £165 (reduced from £259). I asked (a different salesman) who had made them. He was much less forthcoming than his January colleague and said 'they were made for us in Kettering'. If I am not mistaken that would make them Loakes! I nearly backed out of the purchase, but reasoned that I was buying the shoes for their look, fit and price not the label (which is in any case 'New and Lingwood'). But could these really be Loakes?

#

Trimmer


----------



## Will

"But the profit margin on shoes is slim.... Have you seen the financial statements of a shoe company of the middle or upper rank?"

All English company financial statements are public record. 

The last time I looked at Edward Green's, they reported a profit of roughly 1.5mm sterling on sales of 4mm. For 2004, I believe, and before the strengthening of the pound. 

Not Global 5000 numbers but not slim margins either.


----------



## jcusey

Will said:


> "But the profit margin on shoes is slim.... Have you seen the financial statements of a shoe company of the middle or upper rank?"
> 
> All English company financial statements are public record.
> 
> The last time I looked at Edward Green's, they reported a profit of roughly 1.5mm sterling on sales of 4mm. For 2004, I believe, and before the strengthening of the pound.
> 
> Not Global 5000 numbers but not slim margins either.


I have not seen the 2004 figures, and it appears that EG did not have to file anything but an abbreviated balance sheet for 2005. However, I have seen the abbreviated profit and loss sheet for 2002 and 2003, which shows that EG's _gross_ profit was £1.3 million in each of those two years. EG's _net_ profit was £252,000 and £62,000, respectively.

By way of comparison, in 2005, Alfred Sargent had a net profit of £48,000 on sales of £4.6 million (£10,000 and £4.9 million, respectively, in 2004). C&J had net profits (before dividend distributions) of £485,000 on sales of £10.5 million in 2005 and net profits of £576,000 on sales of £10.1 million in 2004.

Those aren't grocery store margins, but they're not fat, either.


----------



## jcusey

Roger said:


> John, I was just looking back at some information in this super-useful thread and noticed that you suggested that New & Lingwood's RTW shoes were mainly rebadged Grensons and Alfred Sargents. I think that there's no doubt that their St. James' line consists of rebadged Grenson Masterpieces (at what I'd consider pretty high prices--327 GBP ex VAT, or about $600US plus shipping), but at least up until last summer, their Classic line shoes were rebadged C&J regular lines (Benchgrades). This was confirmed for me by a N&L sales rep last summer, although it is possible that the situation has changed over the past year. I'd tend to doubt it, though, since the particular models are identical this summer to what was there last summer. Incidentally, these regular-line C&Js (if that's, in fact, what they are) are a pretty good buy, in my opinion, at their summer-sale price of 185 GBP, 153 ex VAT. This puts them at about $280 US plus shipping.


I don't recall the source of my claim that N&L sourced shoes from Grenson and Alfred Sargent. It could be that it was merely the observation that some of the shoes on their website bore an uncanny resemblance to certain distinctive AS models. In any event, I see no such shoes now. However, it would not be unusual for N&L to change their suppliers regularly depending on price, pliability, and whim. Their Poulson Skone shoes were made by Edward Green not so many years ago, for example.


----------



## Bertie Wooster

Trimmer said:


> I nearly backed out of the purchase, but reasoned that I was buying the shoes for their look, fit and price not the label (which is in any case 'New and Lingwood'). But could these really be Loakes?
> 
> #
> 
> Trimmer


They look a lot like the Loake Tweed 2 model to me. The only difference I can see is the medallion on the toecap is a bit different but I assume it'd be quite common for a retailer to request their own design on an own label version of an existing design so as to differentiate from the original. Either way, cracking shoe if you ask me and not a bad buy either as Pediwear do the Tweed ( assuming that is indeed what these are ) for £95.95 with no option for that lovely suede.


----------



## Roger

Bertie Wooster said:


> They look a lot like the Loake Tweed 2 model to me. The only difference I can see is the medallion on the toecap is a bit different but I assume it'd be quite common for a retailer to request their own design on an own label version of an existing design so as to differentiate from the original. Either way, cracking shoe if you ask me and not a bad buy either as Pediwear do the Tweed ( assuming that is indeed what these are ) for £95.95 with no option for that lovely suede.


That particular shoe could well be a non-C&J shoe, but the rest, I think--at least the smooth calf ones--are C&J. That shoe is selling for about 20 GBP less than the rest (although the regular price appears to be the same), and I don't recall seeing it there last year. However, the smooth calf shoes were there last year when the N&L rep told me that their Classic line were rebadged C&Js.

_Edit:_ If N&L are selling these shoes for 165 GBP on sale (regular 259 GBP), doesn't it seem unlikely that they'd be shoes that normally sell for 95 GBP at Pediwear (except for the suede addition)? Although similar to the Loake Tweed 2, the N&Ls are not identical. The paired eyelets are at unequal distances from one another on the N&L shoe (wider spread at the bottom of the facings), but appear to be evenly-distanced on the Loake. Further, there is broguing along the top of the quarters on the Loake shoe, but not on the N&L. I don't know exactly what these N&Ls are, but it would be surprising (but, of course, entirely possible) if they were Loakes. If they were made by Loake, perhaps they were made to higher standards than regular Loakes--to justify N&L's considerably higher price. Certainly, when you compare N&L's prices for rebadged C&Js, their price is better than Pediwear's price on corresponding C&J regular-grade shoes. I don't think it would surprise anyone to find that a salesperson had incorrect information about the origins of his product.

_Edit 2:_ When checking prices, I noticed that Pediwear's prices on regular-grade C&Js are really no hell at all. Canterburys at 208 GBP (ex VAT), for example. PLal sell the same shoe for 172 GBP, putting Pediwear 21% higher, and they're 12.5% higher on the Hallam. Interestingly, C&J list the Canterbury at 230 GBP (with VAT) in their catalog, whereas Pediwear list it at 245 GBP (their regular price). What's going on at Pediwear?


----------



## Will

"Those aren't grocery store margins, but they're not fat, either."

Perhaps they should stick to their lasts? 

I do recall the EG numbers were net profit but I could well be wrong and do defer to your superior shoe knowledge generally. 

In any business, as you know, it's easier to have margins at the high end than in the middle where C&J et al are. In fact, if you don't have margins at the high end you're wasting your time because you'll never make much money on 5% of small revenue.


----------



## RJman

Why do I remember reading that N&L bought in some cheaper shoes to sell at their sales?


----------



## Trimmer

*'Loake' at New and Lingwood?*

Thank you shoe detectives Bertie and Roger.

If the salesman hadn't mentioned Kettering I would not have suspected that my new shoes were Loakes. They are slimmer and longer than my one pair of Loakes (and what I would expect from Sargent), altogether more elegant. They look more like C and J.

I tried on several pairs and sizes before buying them and saw they were all marked 'E' fitting which is standard for C and J (for most manufacturers it is 'F'). Oddly I ended up with a half-size bigger than I would normally buy (in C and J). The internal lettering resembles C and J rather than Loake but there is nothing that suggests a C and J last number.

I have nothing from Grenson I could compare them with.

Trimmer


----------



## jcusey

RJman said:


> Why do I remember reading that N&L bought in some cheaper shoes to sell at their sales?


Perhaps because the RJcat has been slipping mercury into your food in retaliation for you inflicting French kitty litter on him. :devil:

Actually, now that you mention it, I seem to remember that bengal-stripe mentioned something about this once. Or it might be that I am easily suggestible.


----------



## jcusey

Will said:


> In any business, as you know, it's easier to have margins at the high end than in the middle where C&J et al are. In fact, if you don't have margins at the high end you're wasting your time because you'll never make much money on 5% of small revenue.


I sincerely hope that EG regularly earns net profits of £1.5 million per year, both because it would mean that my one of my favorite shoe makers is prospering and because such fat margins would attract similar competition. I know that companies attempting to sell luxury goods aspire to fat margins, but I also know that the luxury-only strategy of LVMH and the various other modern conglomerates hasn't worked out perfectly.


----------



## Trimmer

*Buying in sales items*



RJman said:


> Why do I remember reading that N&L bought in some cheaper shoes to sell at their sales?


Maybe you saw it here: 
although this thread looks like some of us are talking to each other elsewhere!

My shoes are clearly marked 'Made in England', and aren't there laws against passing off special purchases as genuine reductions?

Trimmer


----------



## Lino

jcusey said:


> I have not seen the 2004 figures, and it appears that EG did not have to file anything but an abbreviated balance sheet for 2005. However, I have seen the abbreviated profit and loss sheet for 2002 and 2003, which shows that EG's _gross_ profit was £1.3 million in each of those two years. EG's _net_ profit was £252,000 and £62,000, respectively.
> 
> By way of comparison, in 2005, Alfred Sargent had a net profit of £48,000 on sales of £4.6 million (£10,000 and £4.9 million, respectively, in 2004). C&J had net profits (before dividend distributions) of £485,000 on sales of £10.5 million in 2005 and net profits of £576,000 on sales of £10.1 million in 2004.
> 
> Those aren't grocery store margins, but they're not fat, either.


Agreed, net profits are thin and we will just have to wait and see which companies made the right choices.


----------



## medwards

jcusey said:


> [*] -- St. Crispin's is based in Vienna, although both their bespoke shoes and their RTW shoes are made in Romania. From the descriptions on their website, these are handmade shoes; and I like the look of them very much. The last shapes are Central European, with high walls at the toe; but they're more elegant than, say, Vass's traditional lasts (not F, U, and P2 -- think Peter or 3636) or Dinkelacker's.


This linked discussion -- and accompanying illustration of St. Crispin's ready-to-wear shoes  -- may be of value to those seeking additional information about this shoemaker.


----------



## medwards

*Gaziano & Girling RTW*

And a new entry:

Gaziano & Girling Ltd and its .


----------



## Trommel

No mention of Tim Little?

I understand that he's now a marketing consultant to Grenson, and that his "Blue Sole" range is, or was at least, manufactured by the Alfred Sargent factory.

I have a pair of wholecuts from the "Black Sole" line which so far appear, to my untutored eye, to be of reasonable quality and construction for the on-sale price I paid (although the slightly inconsistent way they've creased on each foot eats away at my very being every time I put them on). I'm not sure where or by who they're manufactured.

It would also be interesting to view some feedback on the quality of Jeffery West shoes - although there's a slightly rakish, even parvenu, element to their styles, I like some of them.


----------



## medwards

*Tim Little Website*

https://www.timlittle.com/


----------



## jcusey

See here for norcaltransplant's excellent review of Campanile shoes.


----------



## jcusey

A correspondent tells me that I have failed to mention *Magnanni*, a Spanish shoe manufacturer. I am not very familiar with this maker, but he tells me that Magnanni is a mid-range producer of (presumably) Blake-constructed shoes. Some of them appear to be very fashion-forward, others relatively classic.


----------



## LeicaLad

A most excellent and informative post. I hesitate to request more work, especially from someone who has done so much work in compiling this post, but.. .

Many of the threads about the better shoes refer to specific lasts with great familiarity. In naming the different lasts upon which specific models have been constructed, I can practically see the heads nodding with shared insights regarding the feel and fitting brought by the choice of lasts.

Unfortunately, for those of us seeking to learn, I see those heads tilted quizzically in wonder. I have yet to find any thread that speaks about the specificities and idiosyncrasies of lasts, in general or specifically.

What would be really helpful for the learners here would either be citations for which books and publications provide the best primers on lasts choices, OR the building of a new thread on the matter.

My suggestion for a thread title:

"*At LAST! The first and last word in shoe lasts*."

It could be pinned as a lasting discussion...

Just MHO. Thank you, again, for the many informative threads.


----------



## ScarpeDiem

*Facts on Bonora*



iammatt said:


> I believe that Bonora, who makes some terrific English styled Italian shoes, is returning to the US market this year. They do mainly goodyear construction with some Norvegese. I would put them a notch below the Kiton and Lattanzi tier as far as workmanship (on par with Mantellassi), and the styling is a bit more like Kiton. Prices are similar to EG and JL if I remember correctly.


Bonora in fact tried to come back to the U.S. Market, however with no real strength. It is a well made shoe. Most styles are Good year construction some are blake, beautiful styling. The have not put any effort into entering the U.S. market , no advertisment, no P.R. , No website. Just another expensive relatively unknown Italian shoe. They have distribution problems and the fews customers they do have they could not ship ontime. Price is in the $ 800 - $1200 U.S range. Quality is equal or slightly less than JL and EG


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## jcusey

ScarpeDiem said:


> Bonora in fact tried to come back to the U.S. Market, however with no real strength. It is a well made shoe. Most styles are Good year construction some are blake, beautiful styling. The have not put any effort into entering the U.S. market , no advertisment, no P.R. , No website. Just another expensive relatively unknown Italian shoe. They have distribution problems and the fews customers they do have they could not ship ontime. Price is in the $ 800 - $1200 U.S range. Quality is equal or slightly less than JL and EG


If memory serves correctly, the Italian-made shoes that carried a couple of years ago (and for all I know may still carry, although they are no longer shown on the website) were made by Bonora and retailed for around $600.


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## jcusey

One more:

-- Another of the mid-range Italian brands. Banfi's shoes tend to be a bit flamboyant, either because of the design or because of the leather used. I believe that these shoes are Blake-constructed. The examples that I have seen have been decent shoes, although one can find better-made Blake-constructed shoes for roughly the same price.


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## walterb

*Another Italian Shoe Maker*

One of the very best Italian shoemakers in my opinion is Fratelli Rosetti. I have not seen them mentioned here, and was wondering if any others are familiar with them. The styling tends to be conservative in comparison to some of the other high end Italian companies.


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## medwards

walterb said:


> One of the very best Italian shoemakers in my opinion is Fratelli Rosetti. I have not seen them mentioned here, and was wondering if any others are familiar with them.


https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=55266

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=11214


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## walterb

Thanks for the links Medwards. I wear mostly Italian shoes and have considered them among the best. I noticed that someone else posted that they bought them at Filene's basement. I bought 3-4 pairs there over the years at deep discounts. I used to be able to buy many of the high end Italian shoes there but I don't think they get the same quality merchandise there anymore. I bought Testonis, Artiolis, Tanino Crisci, and many, many pairs of Ferragamos there. Except for the Tanino Crisci, I thought the FR were as good or better than any of the others above. I am not very familar with the English shoe makers, but from reading this thread, I would definately like to look into the Edward Greens. I do doubt though that I will find them deeply discounted at Filene's basement.


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## Artisan Fan

I like Italian shoes a lot myself but sometimes it takes some of the more expensive brands to match the durability built into an English shoe. I couldn't imagine living without some of both.


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## fritzl

For me one point on the construction, which leads to the durability, is the quite different physiognomy between Italians and Englishmen.

Also the climatic conditions are playing a role in the considerations: How to build an excellent and durable shoe. 

As soon as you start comparing with the Austrian-Hungarian styles, which are for quirkier ways not to well represented here. Probably, because they are not detected and discovered yet.You can find as a result of the monarch history beside the traditional classic styles all kind of influences. 

If you look at the work of the most famous proponents like Vass, Kiss, Bartkiewicz, Scheer, Materna, Balint or Maftei you find various traces of shoemaking history.


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## jcusey

Ron Rider mentioned them earlier in this thread, but here's another brief blurb:

*Lidfort *-- Another of the bevy of high-quality Italian shoe manufacturers. Lidfort has at least two lines, one consisting of Blake-constructed shoes and the other of Norwegian-constructed shoes. They are not widely-distributed in the US (I've only ever seen them at Barney's). Because they are not widely-known, you can sometimes find very good deals on them on eBay or at Barney's sales. The styling of most of the Lidfort shoes that I have seen has been well within the mainstream of Italian production -- flashier than most of what you find from British manufacturers, but nothing outlandish like what StefanoBi produces.


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## medwards

jcusey said:


> [*]*Grenson* -- This firm's name is a contraction of "William Green and Son," which suggests that once upon a time there might have been some relationship with Edward Green. I'm not certain. This firm is capable of making very high-quality shoes comparable to C&J Handgrade. Grenson used to sell these "Masterpieces" shoes under their own label. Recently, however, Grenson appears to have fallen on hard times and has ceased selling these shoes except as private-label offerings. It's a pity. They were wonderful shoes. The good news is that Stuart's Choice shoes from Paul Stuart are made to the old Masterpieces standards by Grenson. I have never seen any Grenson shoes from the lower lines (Feathermasters and what not), so I can't comment about the level of quality.


The firm has apparently been undergoing a very significant transformation over the past few years. Purchased by Christian Purslow in 2004, it is being revamped in what the Financial Times terms "the Burberry model" -- eliminating cheap materials and mass produced line, repositioning the company as a fine British heritage brand, and adding a touch of modern styling to its footwear.


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## jcusey

medwards said:


> The firm has apparently been undergoing a very significant transformation over the past few years. Purchased by Christian Purslow in 2004, it is being revamped in what the Financial Times terms "the Burberry model" -- eliminating cheap materials and mass produced line, repositioning the company as a fine British heritage brand, and adding a touch of modern styling to its footwear.


From looking at the Grenson website, it looks like they have collapsed their plethora of lines into just two: the Rose collection and the Rushden range. I believe that they also still produce shoes for Paul Stuart, including the Stuart's Choice line, which are excellent shoes. Just based on prices, I would expect that the Rose collection shoes would be made maybe on the same level of main-line C&J shoes. Has anybody seen them? The Financial Times article gives me hope, but the fact that they no longer appear to make Masterpieces shoes (the construction level for the Stuart's Choice shoes) for anyone but Paul Stuart leaves me a bit suspicious of how this change will impact Grenson's overall quality.


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## RJman

jcusey said:


> From looking at the Grenson website, it looks like they have collapsed their plethora of lines into just two: the Rose collection and the Rushden range. I believe that they also still produce shoes for Paul Stuart, including the Stuart's Choice line, which are excellent shoes. Just based on prices, I would expect that the Rose collection shoes would be made maybe on the same level of main-line C&J shoes. Has anybody seen them? The Financial Times article gives me hope, but the fact that they no longer appear to make Masterpieces shoes (the construction level for the Stuart's Choice shoes) for anyone but Paul Stuart leaves me a bit suspicious of how this change will impact Grenson's overall quality.


Tim Little has been brought in as a celebrity designer for Grenson's lines. They are finally getting more coverage in men's magazines. Not saying if that is a good thing or a bad one.

As to Grenson Masterpieces: Are they still making the shoes for Hield? The Japanese-market Henry Maxwell shoes were Grenson Masterpieces as well (those sold in the UK are not). And while New & Lingwood has been switching to Italian production for some of its St. James' shoes, a few of the models on the website are still Masterpieces.


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## meister

*Fratellis*



walterb said:


> One of the very best Italian shoemakers in my opinion is Fratelli Rosetti. I have not seen them mentioned here, and was wondering if any others are familiar with them. The styling tends to be conservative in comparison to some of the other high end Italian companies.


I agree entirely based on 20 years experience and they are sold in the top end stores Down Under like Henry Bucks.


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## Trimmer

RJman said:


> And while New & Lingwood has been switching to Italian production for some of its St. James' shoes, a few of the models on the website are still Masterpieces.


Please could you tell us which ones?


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## jcusey

Thanks to that crack pusher T4phage, I have learned that Riccardo Bestetti, a Milanese bespoke cordwainer, has introduced a line of RTW shoes. T4 says that they are made in his workshop to the same level of construction as his regular bespoke shoes, only on stock lasts. Follow the link to T4's post on Style Forum for some pictures. They look like excellently-made shoes.


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## RJman

Trimmer said:


> Please could you tell us which ones?


The St James models whose descriptions mention that they are made in Blighty.


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## epl0517

*Peal and Co. today*

The history of Peal and Co. is quite tortuous, and it seems, well understood only by a great few. Clearly, the make, price, and quality of the product line has varied tremendously over the years.

Less experienced shoe shoppers might appreciate a few words to be said about the quality of Peal-labeled shoes today.

A recent visit to a BB branch revealed a nice range of what appeared to be decent shoes, but I am not an expert to judge. Regarding their make, I could learn nothing from the salesperson except that they come from England. He believed, or wanted me to believe, that there currently exists a company called Peal, which makes shoes for BB. But this claim has been previously rejected on this thread and elsewhere.

What struck me is they that they seemed to be channel soles offered at a low price of $415. C&J (which is one of the makers Peal has used and may use presently) offers the least expensive English channel soled pieces of which I am aware, in its handgrade collection, and these pairs fetch £350 on Pediwear.co.uk, and about $600-700 in the US from Ben Silver, Turnbull & Asser, or Barneys.

How does BB keep the costs so low? Do they use inferior leathers? Is these shoes as high in quality as C&J handgrades?


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## jcusey

epl0517 said:


> What struck me is they that they seemed to be channel soles offered at a low price of $415. C&J (which is one of the makers Peal has used and may use presently) offers the least expensive English channel soled pieces of which I am aware, in its handgrade collection, and these pairs fetch £350 on Pediwear.co.uk, and about $600-700 in the US from Ben Silver, Turnbull & Asser, or Barneys.
> 
> How does BB keep the costs so low? Do they use inferior leathers? Is these shoes as high in quality as C&J handgrades?


I would imagine that pricing for private-label production at C&J is a la carte -- so much for different qualities of upper leathers, so much for various sole qualities, etc., etc. Channeled soles would be just another option that BB could pay for if they wanted. I would assume that it wouldn't add much to the price that BB has to pay -- maybe $10 or $15 per pair. Overall, I don't think that the BB Peals made by C&J have the quality of C&J-labeled handgrades. It's difficult to articulate what all leads me to that conclusion, but they just don't seem that way to me.


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## epl0517

jcusey said:


> Channeled soles would be just another option that BB could pay for if they wanted. I would assume that it wouldn't add much to the price that BB has to pay -- maybe $10 or $15 per pair. Overall, I don't think that the BB Peals made by C&J have the quality of C&J-labeled handgrades. It's difficult to articulate what all leads me to that conclusion, but they just don't seem that way to me.


Thanks for the information. I didn't realize that channel stitching was that inexpensive, since I rarely see it on shoes selling for less than $500.

I would still be interested in your opinion about how current Peals compare in quality to similarly priced shoes, such as regular C&J, Alfred Sargent, Alden, and A&E.


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## jjl5000

epl0517 said:


> What struck me is they that they seemed to be channel soles offered at a low price of $415.


Although channeled soles are not a definitive measure of quality, they are as you suggest synonymous with high-end shoes. Tricker's can be had from Pediwear for around $300 and IMO are outstandingly good value at this price point. Shoes feature channeled soles and a very close welt, which makes the shoe appear quite elegant.


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## trolperft

jjl5000 said:


> Although channeled soles are not a definitive measure of quality, they are as you suggest synonymous with high-end shoes. Tricker's can be had from Pediwear for around $300 and IMO are outstandingly good value at this price point. Shoes feature channeled soles and a very close welt, which makes the shoe appear quite elegant.


I agree.
I have a pair of Tricker's which is channeled soles. The upper leather is of good quality. At that price, nice value for money shoes.


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## David Bresch

RE Trickers, do they use the veldtschoen construction anymore? My understanding is not.


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## aportnoy

jcusey said:


> Overall, I don't think that the BB Peals made by C&J have the quality of C&J-labeled handgrades. It's difficult to articulate what all leads me to that conclusion, but they just don't seem that way to me.


I completely agree. My BB badged C&Js do not have the same quality leather as my C&J handgrades and I find that finishing is also inferior. I think the BBs are benchgrade with channeled soles. I actually think the C&Js for Polo RL are a hybrid between bench and hand grades.

Plal sells handgrade for the same price that BB sells benchgrades, it's an easy call.


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## medwards

*St. Crispin's Catalogue*



jcusey said:


> *St. Crispin's* -- St. Crispin's is based in Vienna, although both their bespoke shoes and their RTW shoes are made in Romania. From the descriptions on their website, these are handmade shoes; and I like the look of them very much. The last shapes are Central European, with high walls at the toe; but they're more elegant than, say, Vass's traditional lasts (not F, U, and P2 -- think Peter or 3636) or Dinkelacker's.


Panzeraxe has been kind enough to post (with Mute's assistance), the St. Crispin's catalogue in this . It is, I believe, the best online visual guide to this shoemaker's approach and offerings.


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## bobbyball

*In praise of Bonora*

I recently purchased a pair of tassle chestnut loafers from Duffers in Covent Garden. Their sale is on at the moment and in the basement they had some shoe oddments left. A mixture of Trickers, Santoni and Bonora.

They told me that during their short lived foray on Savile Row, they stocked Bonora and they were priced at £350 (I paid £95).

This is my first experience of this shoe and I cannot praise it enough. The shoe appears to be entirely handmade and not dissimilar in quality details to some Lattanzi I have.

The shoe is welted (I think a type of goodyear but more hand done IMO) with channelled soles and a bevelled waist. The leather is sumptuous with a hand burnished almost antiqued finish.

Although not relevant to the shoe itself, the packaging is superb with thick tasselled cotton shoe bags along with a booklet in Italian signed by the individual maker and explaining the process (I know it is marketing but nice all the same).

Given these as an example I would rate them very highly compared to Lobb RTW and Edward Green. They display a lightness but sturdiness that I am more familiar with in a bespoke shoe. Even at £350, their price would seem exceedingly competitive.


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## simj

Westons in London are at the £485 end whilst Edward Green RTW start at £520, so there's not a great deal in it for cost.


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## JWM1960

I bought a real nice pair of Alexander McQueen (Italy) cap toe dress boots at Bregdorf's last Fall. 

Also please comment on Bostonian, and Cole-Hahn.


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## simj

*New site with listings*

Just found this online - ignore the oriental hyroglyphics and click on the top headings and it gives a generic list of various cobblers from numerous nations.

https://www.hi-net.zaq.ne.jp/crane/maker/ita/ita1.html


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## clee1982

I am hoping someone can answer a question I have on Testoni here. Have you noticed another Testoni that is not marked with anything other than just testoni, are they better, on par or below Black Label?


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## Felipe Strand

*Magnanni*

Magnanni could possibly be considered as well in this category


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## lovemeparis

*Just some more things about shoes...*


 -- The Ultimate Boy Toys






*Edward Green* -- 





*Crockett & Jones* -- this one is in French






 --


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## JWM1960

St Crispins link in the original post is not working. Does anyone know the current web address and can someone re[air the link in the OP so that it works. Thanks. This post is a great resource.


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## pkincy

Some years ago a thread existed with the name of the different models from all the top RTW shoemakers along with a picture or pictures of that model that had been submitted by the OP or the membership.

Does it still exist somewhere?

Perry


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## Scott_in_London

Grenson seems to have been revived, with shops in not only Bloomsbury and the City but also in Spitalfields and New York.


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## winghus

Scott_in_London said:


> Grenson seems to have been revived, with shops in not only Bloomsbury and the City but also in Spitalfields and New York.


Not to keep this zombie thread alive but I've read that Grenson has moved most of their production to India.


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## SG_67

^ perhaps one or two lines but their mainline is still a UK product.


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