# Morning Suit Wedding Colors



## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hello, all. This site has been helpful with a lot of formal wear questions in the past, and normally searching the forums brings me a wonderful answer. I have a few questions. I'm looking at (an eventual) formal daytime wedding. I've already purchased a black cutaway and the striped trousers. A few questions:


A top hat is proper. Should it be black, too (silk?), or should it be grey like these fellows?








What are the proper waistcoat colors? Is dove grey acceptable, or should it be white?
Finally, are braces/suspenders used with the trousers, and what color should they ideally be (even if you never see them)?
Many thanks.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Black and gray toppers are equally appropriate with morning dress. In my opinion, gray hats, like gray morning coats, are a slightly less formal alternative to the black version. Gray hats will be of wool or fur felt, while black ones can be either felt or silk (hard-shell, not a collapsible opera hat). Many prefer silk for its luster, but silk toppers aren't made anymore and are hard to come by.

Dove grey and buff (a yellowish tan) are the most traditional colors. I think I'd stay away from white, though off-white or cream linen might be nice. Pakeman Catto & Carter offer other colors as well, any of which I think would be fine for a slightly more playful look.

Suspenders are always preferable when you're wearing a waistcoat, and I think you answered your own question about the color. Nobody will see them, so it really doesn't matter. I wear black silk ones with my morning kit, but I could as easily wear fluorescent purple braces with green spots. Doesn't make a bit of difference.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

None of those are morning suits in the proper sense. An attire is only a suit if the coat and trousers match (suit from _suivre_ = to follow in French).

This is a morning suit:

Light grey morning suits are usually only worn by the groom. All others, including members of the wedding party, should wear black or charcoal grey with striped/formal check morning trousers.

Morning trousers should always be cut as brace trousers. The waistcoat with a dark morning coat (cutaway) may be matching or dove grey. A light yellowish tan or "buff" coloured linen waistcoat is also smart for summer wear.


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

So then where do you stand, Sator, on the grey vs. black silk top hat issue for a black morning coat with the dove grey waistcoat?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

My preference is for black with a dark coat but dove grey with a light grey morning suit. 

But that is a preference. You will see Prince Charles wear either.


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## gentleman amateur (Mar 2, 2008)

It's been a while since I've read Anton's essay below, so I don't know if it answers your question. But it is highly informative and interesting.

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/Tutorials/AntongiavanniWEDDINGATTIRE.htm


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

It does answer a great deal of my questions. Those Macclesfield ties look wonderful, too-- except that I don't know where they can be purchased! Otherwise, I'm still torn between the grey topper, even if it's with a black cutaway, and the black silk. I've got time to decide, but I'm thinking that as it is looking to be a white tie reception later in the evening, maybe the grey would change it up some.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

I think melusine fur felt (as offered by Christy's, amongst others) is a reasonable substitute for black silk; for the real thing you will have to go vintage.

As to waistcoats, I might wear white if trying to evoke an "Edwardian" look but dove grey or buff are better choices. Pakeman Catto and Carter offer quite a good range of these:

https://www.pakeman.co.uk/products.php?cat=27


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

GrumF14 said:


> Finally, are braces/suspenders used with the trousers, and what color should they ideally be (even if you never see them)?


A few years ago, Brooks Brothers was selling what it called "morning stripe" braces. They are striped in lite and dark grey, have silver-toned hardware, and seem to fit nicely with the overall daytime formal aesthetic. I wore 'em to my wedding, at which I wore a stroller rather than a morning coat. I don't see the braces online any more, but it's quite possible that some of the brick and mortar stores still have them in stock. Could be worth a call if you are interested. I think they were about $75. Here's a photo:


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

A well-attired group.

The morning dress (not suit) looks fine and grey toppers are just OK for a wedding although the more formal black is preferred.

there will be conjecture but grey is surely only suitable for the races although as a picture below suggest HRH The Prince of Wales tends to favour that ensemble for weddings.



GrumF14 said:


> Hello, all. This site has been helpful with a lot of formal wear questions in the past, and normally searching the forums brings me a wonderful answer. I have a few questions. I'm looking at (an eventual) formal daytime wedding. I've already purchased a black cutaway and the striped trousers. A few questions:
> 
> 
> A top hat is proper. Should it be black, too (silk?), or should it be grey like these fellows?
> ...


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## Adagio (Aug 2, 2007)

GrumF14,

Hackett does a stunning double breasted waistcoat in buff linen. My morning coat is mid grey with a matching grey DB waistcoat (also by Hackett), but if I was ever to purchase a black coat, I would go for the DB buff linen waistcoat. 

Re the top hat, try Ebay, there is usually a good selection unless you are a size 7 1/2 or larger. A few stunners here at the moment:


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

Anthony Jordan said:


> I think melusine fur felt (as offered by Christy's, amongst others) is a reasonable substitute for black silk; for the real thing you will have to go vintage.
> 
> As to waistcoats, I might wear white if trying to evoke an "Edwardian" look but dove grey or buff are better choices. Pakeman Catto and Carter offer quite a good range of these:
> 
> https://www.pakeman.co.uk/products.php?cat=27


I will be wearing morning dress for my upcoming wedding and I am thinking of doing a white waistcoat. I would also consider something along the lines of the "Calico" color offered at the above link. The waistcoat will be doublebreasted with a basque waistline.

What do people think of using the calico or white compared to the buff or grey? Does anyone have pictures of either of these being worn? I'd love to see how it looks.

All thoughts and input are appreciated.

Mike


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)




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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for the pic. Is that you, or is it a model? That ensemble looks fabulous. I hope that I can look even close to that good. Still looking for a top hat and spats.

Mike


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

It is a model. I am sorry to say I am plenty of years older than the picture. My daughter is getting married this May and my son-in-law to be has ordered a cream waistcoat with black edges from Favourbrook. My son who married last year had two waistcoats made one grey with white edges and one in a blue material with Aboriginal design both by Favourbrook again. They are both very happy. 

I get my morning dress waistcoats from Ede and Ravenscroft but they are much more conventional.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

culverwood said:


>


Lovely with the DB waistcoat and the curve of the hat.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

GrumF14 said:


>


In the words of my old & very eccentrically English Flight Lieutenant:

"Sarn't, the men look like an absolute sha'r, get them sorted."

And I'd say the same about this group, they do like like an absolute shower! I wonder who advised them on sizes. It looks like they just took whatever the suit hire shop had in on that day. I think they look awful. And the hats look like the kind of toy hats you buy in a masquerade shop along with fake kilts, French maids uniforms, Vampire capes and false boobs!


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Personally, grey toppers are only really suitable for the races. Nothing beats a black high silk (or fur melusine if silk unobtainable in your size). 

As for waistcoats white, grey, buff are acceptable. 

Braces: since they won't be seen, any would do. I prefer scarlet boxcloth. Trousers ought to be cut for braces as Sator siad. 


EDIT: just realised the date of the OP is several years ago! Oh well...


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

> EDIT: just realised the date of the OP is several years ago! Oh well...


Yes, indeed! I was surprised when my name came back up with this post. Luckily, I've changed girlfriends since the time of the OP, and this one much appreciates my desire to dress up-- and likes the idea of being married in morning dress, to be followed by a private dinner later in the evening in white tie.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

GrumF14 said:


> and this one much appreciates my desire to dress up.


Say no more sailor, :icon_smile_wink: Or is firefighter? Or pilot? :icon_smile_big:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> EDIT: just realised the date of the OP is several years ago! Oh well...


Oops, I hadn't noticed that at all. I usually do, I just missed it this time in my shock at seeing such a scruffy, ill-clad bunch in morning dress:icon_smile_big:


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

Yep, I resurfaced an old post. I had been looking for information concerning the use of "white" waistcoats with morning dress. This was one of the only threads I could find on several different forums that even mentioned it. Since it had been mentioned, I figured that someone, somewhere might have some information or thoughts.

I do appreciate all that has come forth.

Mike


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

One alternate way to get some white into the waistcoat is to have it slipped. You can find a picture of a slipped waistcoat here:

https://media.photobucket.com/image/waistcoat slip/Satorarepo/Waistcoat_slip.jpg


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Personally, grey toppers are only really suitable for the races. Nothing beats a black high silk (or fur melusine if silk unobtainable in your size).
> 
> As for waistcoats white, grey, buff are acceptable.
> 
> ...


What do you think are the nicest shoes for this?


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

CuffDaddy said:


> One alternate way to get some white into the waistcoat is to have it slipped. You can find a picture of a slipped waistcoat here:
> 
> https://media.photobucket.com/image/waistcoat slip/Satorarepo/Waistcoat_slip.jpg


You know, I've been looking at the slipped waistcoat for awhile. I just can't really buy into it. It never seems to look good to me. Maybe some day it will.

Mike


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Floatinjoe said:


> You know, I've been looking at the slipped waistcoat for awhile. I just can't really buy into it. It never seems to look good to me. Maybe some day it will.
> 
> Mike


I suspect it's one of those things that either speaks to you or doesn't.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Orgetorix said:


> Black and gray toppers are equally appropriate with morning dress. In my opinion, gray hats, like gray morning coats, are a slightly less formal alternative to the black version. Gray hats will be of wool or fur felt, while black ones can be either felt or silk (hard-shell, not a collapsible opera hat). Many prefer silk for its luster, but silk toppers aren't made anymore and are hard to come by.


WOOL FELT!!!??? My impression has long been that only the cheapest, nastiest hats--the kinds of things you would buy from a costume shop--are made of wool felt. Hardly what one wants for an elegant wedding! A few generations ago in the American South, "wool hat boy" was a synonym for "*******" or "peckerwood."


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Re; white waistcoat

I read that they can be worn from NJS's book. They do look a bit bland if worn with a white shirt though...

Re: slipped waistcoat.

They look better if you have a blue shirt underneath and a coloured waiscoat so it contrasts nicely.



Orsini said:


> What do you think are the nicest shoes for this?


Well-polished black Oxfords; toe-cap can be stitched or have punchings. Or, if you can afford it, black button boots with grey or lemon galosh tops.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

CuffDaddy said:


> One alternate way to get some white into the waistcoat is to have it slipped. You can find a picture of a slipped waistcoat here:
> 
> https://media.photobucket.com/image/waistcoat slip/Satorarepo/Waistcoat_slip.jpg


Why would anyone want a slipped waistcoat? Very unelegant I think.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> WOOL FELT!!!??? My impression has long been that only the cheapest, nastiest hats--the kinds of things you would buy from a costume shop--are made of wool felt.


Exactly, and that is exaclty what I wrote earlier in this thread.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Orsini said:


> What do you think are the nicest shoes for this?


Plain black Oxfords owuld be my first choice. Or if you want to add more of the Victorian or Edwardian touch then black lace-up dress boots. It wasn't until about the '20s that shoes had the majority share of formal/dress footwear.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

So, black captoe oxfords would be OK... 

Thank you both, gentlemen.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Why would anyone want a slipped waistcoat? Very unelegant I think.


It can be elegant if done right. For one, it needs to be starched and not be flimsy.


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Re; white waistcoat
> 
> I read that they can be worn from NJS's book. They do look a bit bland if worn with a white shirt though...


Call me out of it, but which book is NJS's? Is it worth purchasing?

Mike


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

History of Men's Fashion.

Yes it is.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Me...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268315404&sr=8-1


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2020)

I understand that dove grey and buff are the most traditional waistcoat colors but these days I often see duck egg blue, pale yellow, etc. as well. Does anyone know when pastel waistcoats were first worn with morning dress? Is it a relatively recent trend?


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Guest-462529 said:


> I understand that dove grey and buff are the most traditional waistcoat colors but these days I often see duck egg blue, pale yellow, etc. as well. Does anyone know when pastel waistcoats were first worn with morning dress? Is it a relatively recent trend?


Pastel waistcoats are quite traditional for morning dress. Light blue is equally conservative amongst the dove grey, buff and cream waistcoats. Pink has been worn a long time as well, but it's a bit flashier. The concept of wearing a colourful waistcoat has been around centuries longer than the modern waistcoat!


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2020)

Has anyone seen any vintage examples/illustrations of a pink waistcoat?



Matt S said:


> Pastel waistcoats are quite traditional for morning dress. Light blue is equally conservative amongst the dove grey, buff and cream waistcoats. Pink has been worn a long time as well, but it's a bit flashier. The concept of wearing a colourful waistcoat has been around centuries longer than the modern waistcoat!


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Guest-906617 said:


> Has anyone seen any vintage examples/illustrations of a pink waistcoat?


I don't know if I have, but the very traditional brand Pakeman, Catto & Carter (which is sadly no more) long offered pink linen waistcoats for morning dress. Ede & Ravenscroft, another traditional brand that is still around, offers the same: https://shop.edeandravenscroft.com/collections/morning-dress

And a bit more historically, men loved pink waistcoats: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/16306/lot/266/


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2020)

Lots of retailers offer pink waistcoats for morning dress but it seems like they're hardly ever worn. Well, plenty of dopes wear bright pink satin vests trying to be "wacky" but I think this guy at Pippa Middleton's wedding is the only person I've ever seen wear a pink waistcoat in a serious way. (And honestly it's so pale it practically looks ivory.)


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2021)

The 2021 "What to Wear" guide for Royal Ascot also features a pale pink waistcoat.


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## Floatinjoe (Feb 14, 2005)

I wonder who died. That's more in tune to a mourning suit than morning dress.


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## Faux Brummell (Mar 27, 2013)

I think the suit is navy blue. Royal Ascot started allowing navy morning suits in 2020.


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## Faux Brummell (Mar 27, 2013)

Guest-906617 said:


> Has anyone seen any vintage examples/illustrations of a pink waistcoat?


I don't have a subscription to this service but here's a reference to a lavender waistcoat worn to Royal Ascot in 1949 if that's of interest.


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

Any place that needs or what’s a dress code (for adults) is not sufficiently civilized for me to attend.


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