# We all hold our own bigotry



## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Last night was interesting, the end of the Jewish New Year Holiday of Yom Kippur and after Break-fast some heavy conversation. Being the end of a day of heavy introspection things that are deep sometimes come out. We called my daughter at college to wish her a happy New Year (I was at my lady friends house with her two adult children). I am not sure how it came up, maybe me saying that a Jews we are indeed a minority in this country if you get out of the major cities and I wish that we could be considered for some financial aid. Sure I make a good living but $40,000 a year for college is a handful. My lady friend's 29 year old daughter, a very smart young lady took exception and brought up the effects of slavery on blacks, and also the second largest minority hispanics (not sure what was said regarding hispanics)...My take is that black (African American if you prefer) and hispanics cannot blend in as Jews and Italians and Irish, etc, were able to, and are still able to (color will always be visible). I don't buy the argument that slavery and it's effects on the black community are the issue, it certainly has been part of the problem but there are some many other things. Now I have my MSW (masters of social work) even though I do not practice in that field anymore, I am more liberal that conservative, but not as liberal as I once was. I brought up that Jews were slaves, sure that was a long time ago and not in this country, I started to discuss anti-semitic attitudes, which I have seen close up traveling in this USA for many years, and my feeling is once you get out of the major metro areas you are in a different place where bigotry is not so much the norm but that the belief system is just different, jews have horns and all blacks need to be feared. As we talked and I was adamant that the issues is so much bigger than the effects of slavery (although in the South maybe that is more true than here in the north, maybe the effects of slavery are still a bigger issue, this is something I do not know)...but I was called a racist (first time for me) and I was told I was patronizing as I said, and I will try to quote myself, "have you ever worked in a large corporation, have you traveled to obscure areas and talked and interacted with people that did not know of your background" (I have and cannot tell anyone how many times I have heard things said about Jews and Blacks that are so over the top that it made my skin crawl)....So when I left I did what I thought I needed to do, I called my best friend Allen who now lives in the bay area, a black man who grew up in St. Louis during Jim Crow days. We talked for quite awhile and his insight was really interesting, as it always is (we studied Social Work together at Washington University in St Louis). He said to me that what he hears from this conversation is White Guilt. I have never really put any credence to this term but it hit home as I was driving. Allen knows me, I know I have my predjudice's, just the way it is. I think anyone who says they are pure is kidding themselves. I know there are still many African Americans that are suffering from the effects of slavery, just as there are still jews that will never get over the holocaust, just the way that is. Allen talked to me about the values that a family teaches their children, how education needs to be important to the family for the children to take it seriously and to get out of where they are and get to the next level...

My point last night that got buried was, ok, slavery is part of the problem for African Americans but it is not the whole problem or even the major problem, at least not the way I see it..so how do we as a society figure out a way to not enable people to be stuck, how do we motivate them to get in gear and find success and to get out of the things that they perceive are holding them back. I sometimes think that people, those like the way I used to be, like the way many new young professionals in the field as helpers, get too hung up on the "academic approach" and forget the realistic approach, or have no way to think beyond some theory they have read. Last night I was told that my opponent in conversation, before she called me a racist was talking from an academic stance...fine, but that hasn't solved the problem to date, time to move onto real problem solving. 

Sorry for the mini-rant.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Congrats on being called a racist. It shows you rattled the "academic stance" of a sheltered liberal with a bit of reality and/or thinking not in lock step with liberal propaganda. Being called a racist by a liberal in a mono-race marriage always puts a special smile on my face, as I drive home to my bi-racial household. 

If you want to really consider something along the lines of, "is this 'help' hurting more than leaving them to their own devices?", take a tour of many Native American households on some of the reservations I consult at. That is enough to make even the most ardent liberal stop and ponder.


----------



## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I think you hit the reason why being Jewish doesn't get you minority benefits: you have to go outside of the metropolitan areas for being Jewish to put you at a disadvantage. You don't need the non-metro areas to be successful, so it doesn't hinder success. That's my take anyways. Same reason Iranians don't get counted as a minority (I realize that we are actually Caucasian, but how many Americans know that?).


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> Same reason Iranians don't get counted as a minority (I realize that we are actually Caucasian, but how many Americans know that?).


Actually, was not some political action group trying to get you granted minority status? Something named along the lines of AXIS? I can remember some friends of mine being involved in it in Dearborn, MI some years ago.


----------



## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Well, Bill Cosby has ranted about this already, but the problem is not black skin. The problem is black culture. Once the black youth quit worshiping hip-hop rap stars and thug basketball players, they could get their lives on track and be very successful. I'm just not sure what it would take to do that. 

I work at a fortune 500 tech company where many have done it, but they don't wear pants hanging off their asses and come to work loaded down with bling. And they tend to drive BMWs and Acuras. I sure they'd be called Oreos but, I'd also bet they don't care. The got what the got working hard legally.

BTW, I'm not racist, but if there is a prejudice called culturist, I'm probably one. Not all cultures have good values and I think it is not wrong to look down on those cultures that have no work ethic and too much respect for the criminal element.


----------



## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

android said:


> Well, Bill Cosby has ranted about this already, but the problem is not black skin. The problem is black culture. Once the black youth quit worshiping hip-hop rap stars and thug basketball players, they could get their lives on track and be very successful. I'm just not sure what it would take to do that.
> 
> I work at a fortune 500 tech company where many have done it, but they don't wear pants hanging off their asses and come to work loaded down with bling. And they tend to drive BMWs and Acuras. I sure they'd be called Oreos but, I'd also bet they don't care. The got what the got working hard legally.
> 
> BTW, I'm not racist, but if there is a prejudice called culturist, I'm probably one. Not all cultures have good values and I think it is not wrong to look down on those cultures that have no work ethic and too much respect for the criminal element.


android, I made many of those points.....I also think a sense of family with father's being available if not in the home is important. Yes the past can make us to a point what we are, but our family unit is all so important is making us what we become.


----------



## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> Actually, was not some political action group trying to get you granted minority status? Something named along the lines of AXIS? I can remember some friends of mine being involved in it in Dearborn, MI some years ago.


Never heard of it, didn't find it with a quick google search, and at any rate it was unsuccessful because no such status has been granted.


----------



## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

Seem pretty rude for that girl to call you racist over a holiday dinner! It's amazing, though, how effective a device throwing out the word 'racist' is in completely stifiling intelligent debate around certain issues in this country. Once someone drops the racist bomb, the conversation is just over.


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

PennGlock said:


> Seem pretty rude for that girl to call you racist over a holiday dinner! It's amazing, though, how effective a device throwing out the word 'racist' is in completely stifiling intelligent debate around certain issues in this country. Once someone drops the racist bomb, the conversation is just over.


Or, you could follow up by calling the person a Nazi, which is the other conversation ender.

I do find it "interesting" that it is mainly white liberals who are so quick to call someone a racist if their views aren't 100% PC approved.

Brian


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I applied for a job recently. Electracraft boat company is literally a 5 minute walk from my apt. The pay is a generous $14 an hour to assemble pre production kits of washers and bolts, electric harnesses and brightwork for the production runs, maintain inventory and help out with the more rigorous phases of assembly. I interview and stress my Coast Guard service, continued interest in pleasure boating and involvment in marine and general emergency equipment, work history and residential location. The interviewer launches into this oration about the production team being all latino, their ethic of working hard and being misunderstood. And he looks at me and asks what I think of that? And I ask him if he's ever been to the monument for the San Patricio Brigade in Mexico City and read the names. He replied negatively and launched into another spiel of 'Anglo' prejudice and I put up my hand. " Excuse me, I'm not anglo, I'm irish. And I should also tell you my people also worked hard and faced prejudice." I didn't get the yob. I did almost get run over by a unit of the mechanised army of the reconquista and spit at walking home. I knocked him off his bike. I bear no guilt, white or other. People putting that trip on me usually have a hand out, or already in my pocket.


----------



## cufflink44 (Oct 31, 2005)

android said:


> Well, Bill Cosby has ranted about this already, but the problem is not black skin. The problem is black culture. Once the black youth quit worshiping hip-hop rap stars and thug basketball players, they could get their lives on track and be very successful.


I tend to agree with you. But let me suggest that the "Black culture" you're decrying needs focus. Surely there are different Black cultures, just as there are different Jewish cultures, Latino cultures, gay cultures . . . Something close to your intent might be: Contemporary Black "Urban" Youth Culture.


----------



## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Kav said:


> I applied for a job recently. Electracraft boat company is literally a 5 minute walk from my apt. The pay is a generous $14 an hour to assemble pre production kits of washers and bolts, electric harnesses and brightwork for the production runs, maintain inventory and help out with the more rigorous phases of assembly. I interview and stress my Coast Guard service, continued interest in pleasure boating and involvment in marine and general emergency equipment, work history and residential location. The interviewer launches into this oration about the production team being all latino, their ethic of working hard and being misunderstood. And he looks at me and asks what I think of that? And I ask him if he's ever been to the monument for the San Patricio Brigade in Mexico City and read the names. He replied negatively and launched into another spiel of 'Anglo' prejudice and I put up my hand. " Excuse me, I'm not anglo, I'm irish. And I should also tell you my people also worked hard and faced prejudice." I didn't get the yob. I did almost get run over by a unit of the mechanised army of the reconquista and spit at walking home. I knocked him off his bike. I bear no guilt, white or other. People putting that trip on me usually have a hand out, or already in my pocket.


The interviewer had an attitude problem, and/or they had you pegged before you even sat down for the interview. Judging from your prior posts about immigration I'm guessing the latter of those two.


----------



## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> BTW, I'm not racist, but if there is a prejudice called culturist, I'm probably one. Not all cultures have good values and I think it is not wrong to look down on those cultures that have no work ethic and too much respect for the criminal element.


I guess that makes me a _behaviorist_.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

along the same lines as Kav's post...Our company is opening a new hospital soon, and a good percentage of our staff is leaving to work there. I was in my supervisor's office the other day when I saw all of the replacement postings for these people's positions. ont he supervisor's copy, in the memo field, in big bold letters it tells them that they are to make every effort to hire only African American females...A while ago, my mother was all but given a supervisory position within our hospital, she was by far the most qualified candidate...but at the very last minute the job was given to somebody else??? Care to guess who might have gotten that job??? With way less qualifications...

I don't think I'm a racist...but for the life of me, I cant figure out...how is this even fair??? Seems to me we all face racial injustice in one way or another...I'm not saying that black people didnt get a raw deal in the many many years following the end of slavery, all the way up to the civil rights movement...but I think just about all ethnic groups out there have suffered some sort of racism...


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Re: Hispanics...

...as somebody who is half Cuban, I find that there are many times that I am irritated and embarassed by Latinos...their inability and downright refusal to assimilate into American culture makes me ashamed of my heritage sometimes. My best friend's wife is from El Salvador, and she feels the same as I do...My only consilation is that Cubans generally seem to be the exception to that rule...well...the old school ones anyway...if you ever talk to some of the old timers that hang out down on Calle Ocho (or 8th street as it were), you'll hear about how they came here with nothing but the clothes on their back, and through work, and intellegence, they made themselves into something, they went through the proper channels, and embraced the American way of life...they might have been born in Cuba, but they consider themselves to be American, they speak English (some not so great, but they all make an effort), they believe in America, and many of them share my embarassment when they witness the gimme mentality of many of the Hispanics that our country has been inundated with in recent years, they don't believe letting John Q Taxpayer feed their 15 kids (but they still do believe in having lots of kids [hey, Cuban blood is strong]:icon_smile_wink...I don't know how those of us who believe that you should come to this country legally, and carry your own weight became the bad guys...but let me tell you it's a real problem...


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Don Francisco , hable espangol? Chinga tu madre.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Kav said:


> Chinga tu madre.


Wait...who was that directed at???


----------



## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Kav said:


> Don Francisco , hable espangol? Chinga tu madre.


A bit. She's the one who always said it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. So instead of living in socal, why don't you move to Pocatello and get it over with? You'll be happier, so will your neighbors, and you just might be able to fulfill your lifelong career goal of placing nuts on bolts.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Oooooh...duh...I thought you were talking about don Francisco from Sabado Gigante...


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

T,ish i dtigh diabhail as Corporal Patrick said in family lore to his commanding officer before slipping the sentry. My posts speak for themselves, and I have made my appreciation for the 'spanish' contributions to California known. That I give equal bluntness to wrongs is called honesty. And that, is something you can't handle in your self appointed roll as Grand Inquisitor, Laird high muckety muck, defender of the faith and small animals who thinks compass deviation is always to the left.


----------



## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

The Gabba Goul said:


> in the memo field, in big bold letters it tells them that they are to make every effort to hire only African American females...


You ever thought about bringing this before the EEO?


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

marlinspike said:


> You ever thought about bringing this before the EEO?


nope...I did mention it to a union rep once (I personally am NUNM)...she basically called me a racist with the look she gave me, and I dropped it at that point...


----------



## StevenRocks (May 24, 2005)

android said:


> Well, Bill Cosby has ranted about this already, but the problem is not black skin. The problem is black culture. Once the black youth quit worshiping hip-hop rap stars and thug basketball players, they could get their lives on track and be very successful. I'm just not sure what it would take to do that...BTW, I'm not racist, but if there is a prejudice called culturist, I'm probably one. Not all cultures have good values and I think it is not wrong to look down on those cultures that have no work ethic and too much respect for the criminal element.


Hmmmm...

As a black person, I don't think Bill did us any good by speaking out. The parts of black culture that needed to hear the message just turned up their headphones and tuned him out, while the rest of us got lumped into yet another general classification. I only know a handful of people who even fit into the truly down and lost like he typified.

What's worse is that his statements galvanized what self-hating blacks and arch-conservatives want to believe: that black people are poor and uneducated by choice. It's just not the case. Racism and a history of slavery have just as much to do with the state of the black community as the internal factors. Just because you don't hear as many racial epithets and see Klansman on the streets doesn't mean that those thoughts have gone away and don't affect culture anymore.



cufflink44 said:


> I tend to agree with you. But let me suggest that the "Black culture" you're decrying needs focus. Surely there are different Black cultures, just as there are different Jewish cultures, Latino cultures, gay cultures . . . Something close to your intent might be: Contemporary Black "Urban" Youth Culture.


Exactly. I share skin color with these groups and they are my brothers and sisters, but they're running their house differently than I run mine.



The Gabba Goul said:


> I don't think I'm a racist...but for the life of me, I cant figure out...how is this even fair??? Seems to me we all face racial injustice in one way or another...I'm not saying that black people didnt get a raw deal in the many many years following the end of slavery, all the way up to the civil rights movement...but I think just about all ethnic groups out there have suffered some sort of racism...


Dude, you just don't understand. I don't hold it against you, but there's a different vibe when people look at black folks. Look at Michael Vick, O.J. Simpson, Barry Bonds, Michael Jackson (nominally :icon_smile_wink. When black folks get accused of doing bad things, there's a major societal element that pronounces them guilty before any evidence comes in primarily based on skin color.

Not that any of these people are innocent, according to the evidence, but people for some reason want them eradicated from the earth for breaking the law. You don't get that as much with other races. There's always the benefit of the doubt with everybody but black folks.

If we treat the richest and most famous blacks like this, then what hope is there for the poor ones like me?


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

StevenRocks said:


> Dude, you just don't understand. I don't hold it against you, but there's a different vibe when people look at black folks. Look at Michael Vick, O.J. Simpson, Barry Bonds, Michael Jackson (nominally :icon_smile_wink. When black folks get accused of doing bad things, there's a major societal element that pronounces them guilty before any evidence comes in primarily based on skin color.
> 
> Not that any of these people are innocent, according to the evidence, but people for some reason want them eradicated from the earth for breaking the law. You don't get that as much with other races. there's always the benefit of the doubt with everybody but black folks.
> 
> If we treat the richest and most famous blacks like this, then what hope is there for the poor ones like me?


Oh no...don't get me wrong...I know exactly what you mean...there definately is a segment of White America who still to this day have some serious racial hangups (and not just old-timers either), but these people's opinions are not really valid, trust me, they look at a ***** like me (even a half white one) just the same way, in my eyes these people are just as unwilling to assimilate to the American way of life (all men created equal), and want to run around acting like somebody who's skin is darker than theirs is either some lazy criminal on welfare or a thug ready to snatch their fake Louis Vuitton purse with all of $15 cash and a hotpockets coupon in it...

My argument is that we as minorities should look beyond these idiots, because we'll never change their mind...growing up in an anglo household, I'm not going to lie to you and say that I feel your pain, but I have black friends whom I've had serious discussions about such things with and I will say that I can definately appreciate the struggle...I look at alot of black people the same way that I look at some Latinos...as a people we have so many talents and abilities, but instead of taking advantage of these gifts, we want to sit around and blame somebody else for the fact that the going might be rough or whatever...so we don't even try...

I think if more blacks and Latinos took the initiative to erase these stereotypes that get broadcasted into white America's homes on a daily basis, we could really elevate our own status, and then who cares if there are those out there who don't like us because of our ancestry...as they say, living well is the best revenge...


----------



## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

StevenRocks said:


> If we treat the richest and most famous blacks like this, then what hope is there for the poor ones like me?


Treat them like how? Allowing them to walk away from murder and child molestation?

O.J. Simpson and Michael Jackson aren't examples of racial bigotry, they're examples of how rich people literally get away with murder while poor people don't -- regardless of skin color.


----------



## StevenRocks (May 24, 2005)

The Gabba Goul said:


> My argument is that we as minorities should look beyond these idiots, because we'll never change their mind...growing up in an anglo household, I'm not going to lie to you and say that I feel your pain, but I have black friends whom I've had serious discussions about such things with and I will say that I can definately appreciate the struggle...I look at alot of black people the same way that I look at some Latinos...as a people we have so many talents and abilities, but instead of taking advantage of these gifts, we want to sit around and blame somebody else for the fact that the going might be rough or whatever...so we don't even try...
> 
> I think if more blacks and Latinos took the initiative to erase these stereotypes that get broadcasted into white America's homes on a daily basis, we could really elevate our own status, and then who cares if there are those out there who don't like us because of our ancestry...as they say, living well is the best revenge...


I agree with you,. but the progression is very very slow. Among certain groups of blacks and Latinos, academic and achievement has never been higher, but the message needs to get out there somehow, and it needs to transcend the pockets of ignorance that hold us back.



FrankDC said:


> Treat them like how? Allowing them to walk away from murder and child molestation?
> 
> O.J. Simpson and Michael Jackson aren't examples of racial bigotry, they're examples of how rich people literally get away with murder while poor people don't -- regardless of skin color.


As the judges and juries that considered all the facts and evidence have already stated in public records, O.J. and Michael are not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They had their day in court, and regardless of what anybody else thinks, we can't keep punishing them for those particular crimes. I'm not going to welcome either of them into my homes, but they are free by law to live without our scrutiny.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

StevenRocks said:


> As the judges and juries that considered all the facts and evidence have already stated in public records, O.J. and Michael are not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They had their day in court, and regardless of what anybody else thinks, we can't keep punishing them for those particular crimes. I'm not going to welcome either of them into my homes, but they are free by law to live without our scrutiny.


a big +1...I can't stand either one of them...How is it okay that Robert Wagner still gets work even after speculation that he killed his wife??? I mean what's fair is fair...


----------



## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Interesting posts, thank you Gentlemen. My two best friends for the past 40 years (bobby) and 30 years (allen) are black men. I would be a liar, as I stated above if I said I did not have any prejudices, it is just part of being human. As today has come and gone and I had to spend a bit of time with my lady friend and her daughter (we had plans), it was painful for me..and yes, when the word racist is dropped there is nowhere to go. I really cannot believe that she uttered these words to me..seems to me that she was angry that I would not be steam rolled over to her way of thinking. Not to rehash the whole thing, but there are just too many issues that need attention. I remember one of my instructors in grad school, Jack Kirkland, a black man that works with many many government officials in St Louis and possibly nationally and I cannot think of anyone that made me more aware of poverty and it's effects on people. Jack is a hero because he preaches responsibilty, but is not above figuring out how to help people get to that stage. 



For me, someone who tends to be color blind in my life...everyone is alright until the show me they are not. Maybe it is because I grew up in a diverse area, we where all basically poor and we worked our way to be something else with the help of our friends, family and community. 

Steven, I see your point about Mr. Cosby and never thought of it that way, thank you for bringing that up. 

I learned something this weekend, not just about my lady friends daughter but also about my lady friend. It weighs heavy right now and I will see what happens. I shared this with my ex who knows me quite well, she is also involved with a really nice man of color, and I guess she spoke with him and he was angrier than I was ove the events...but she also share this with my 18 year old and I wish she had not..I only know as I just got a call from my daughter, she was fishing and finally told me she was angry and that it was good that she was not there as she would have popped the young woman one...(youth, all can be solved with a cross look or a bit more)...name calling is not going to be my weapon, education will...I failed last night so I have to think about how I let my emotions take that power away from me....always a lesson to learn.

and lastly, I am a liberal for the most part, maybe not as liberal as in the past as I stated above. I wonder how my lady friend would feel if she knew that I would consider voting for Rudy before some of the Democrats running at this moment for the nomination if he is the republican pick. Her daughter does not like Rudy either, but I have a feeling that by that time I will have moved on one way or the other.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

StevenRocks said:


> Not that any of these people are innocent, according to the evidence, but people for some reason want them eradicated from the earth for breaking the law. You don't get that as much with other races. *There's always the benefit of the doubt with everybody but black folks.*


There's at least three kids from Duke that might argue with you on that one.

Race is a very complicated thing and IMO, it is even more complicated in the US than in most other industrialized countries. There is no simple answers but I do think to predicate so many things on race in official practices and policies is merely to ensure that racial galvanization never goes away.


----------



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

https://www.amazon.com/Black-******...2518547?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190636950&sr=1-1

Your lady friend's daughter is part of the problem. She is the patronizing one.


----------



## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The problem is largely ignorance, like the member who mentioned Black culture, does anyone believe he actually knows anything about Black culture?
People will always have biases I think until we all own up to them, race will always be a big issue. It doesn't really matter if you a racist it only matters how you manifest those feelings; if you use them to attack others, suppress them economically or whatever infringements, then it becomes a problem.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I don't believe in bigotry anymore.A long time ago,I used to have hatred but now I saw the good in myself.I consider my Father the modern-day Archie Bunker.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Howard said:


> I don't believe in bigotry anymore.A long time ago,I used to have hatred but now I saw the good in myself.*I consider my Father the modern-day Archie Bunker.*


Does he call you "meathead"?


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> Does he call you "meathead"?


LAX wins the thread. :aportnoy:


----------



## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

StevenRocks said:


> Dude, you just don't understand. I don't hold it against you, but there's a different vibe when people look at black folks. Look at Michael Vick, O.J. Simpson, Barry Bonds, Michael Jackson (nominally :icon_smile_wink. When black folks get accused of doing bad things, there's a major societal element that pronounces them guilty before any evidence comes in primarily based on skin color.
> 
> Not that any of these people are innocent, according to the evidence, but people for some reason want them eradicated from the earth for breaking the law. You don't get that as much with other races. There's always the benefit of the doubt with everybody but black folks.
> 
> If we treat the richest and most famous blacks like this, then what hope is there for the poor ones like me?


Sorry, but I'm not buying it. If this were true then everyone would be clamoring for Paris Hilton, Phil Spector and other white defendents to be released. That isn't the case. They want their heads too. Basically we don't want the famous (regardless of race) to get away with stuff because of their fame. To quote a famous ex-pres, "It's the fame, stupid." :icon_smile_big:


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Mark from Plano said:


> Sorry, but I'm not buying it. If this were true then everyone would be clamoring for Paris Hilton, Phil Spector and other white defendents to be released. That isn't the case. They want their heads too. Basically we don't want the famous (regardless of race) to get away with stuff because of their fame. To quote a famous ex-pres, "It's the fame, stupid." :icon_smile_big:


true...but I'm pretty sure that I know what he's saying...it's just that look or whatever that you get from some people, there isnt really any way to describe it, you just know that people are looking at you differently, and unless you've experianced it first hand, there's no way to really put it into words...they just kind of look at you like you're automatically some kind of criminal or that they're better than you or something...makes me want to smack them...

That's not to say that I havent gotten that same look from black folks too I mean, I am half ****** after all...

the truth is it's tough when there are such prejudiced people in the world...all we can do is really make an effort to keep our own prejudices in check...


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> true...but I'm pretty sure that I know what he's saying...it's just that look or whatever that you get from some people, there isnt really any way to describe it, you just know that people are looking at you differently, and unless you've experianced it first hand, there's no way to really put it into words...they just kind of look at you like you're automatically some kind of criminal or that they're better than you or something...makes me want to smack them...


You mean that look that obviously says, "What are you doing here? Can't you see you don't belong?"


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> You mean that look that obviously says, "What are you doing here? Can't you see you don't belong?"


basically...


----------



## StevenRocks (May 24, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> There's at least three kids from Duke that might argue with you on that one.
> 
> Race is a very complicated thing and IMO, it is even more complicated in the US than in most other industrialized countries. There is no simple answers but I do think to predicate so many things on race in official practices and policies is merely to ensure that racial galvanization never goes away.


There was a lot of supposition in the Duke case, but in my experience, it wasn't a situation that polarized a wide variety of people like O.J. or Michael Jackson. The kids weren't famous before, nor are they famous now, and frankly, even though what happened to them was just as wrong, not a lot of people cared. It's a sad commentary on our society, to be sure.

Sadly as well, racial galvanization isn't going to go away anytime soon either. We claim to be a colorblind society, but as we get older and things happen that our parents and friends warned us about, all the garbage we're fed over the years goes straight to our consciousness, even when it has no reason to be there.



Mark from Plano said:


> Sorry, but I'm not buying it. If this were true then everyone would be clamoring for Paris Hilton, Phil Spector and other white defendents to be released. That isn't the case. They want their heads too. Basically we don't want the famous (regardless of race) to get away with stuff because of their fame. To quote a famous ex-pres, "It's the fame, stupid." :icon_smile_big:


Sorry to disagree, but I hear people all around me, lately in the Michael Vick case, that want him hung or his livelihood taken away forever without even knowing the facts of the story. I have to admit his chances of not being convicted are pretty slim based on the evidence, but a lot of those people primarily see skin color and discuss the facts later. If you think about it, the people that blindly support him despite the evidence are doing the same thing, though their motive is that he be let off scot-free, which is not going to happen based on what we know so far about the case.

People resent Paris or Phil for being rich, without question, but if they served some time and disappeared for a while, most people would forget their crimes, even if they weren't forgiven. I have a feeling that wouldn't work the same way if they were black.



The Gabba Goul said:


> true...but I'm pretty sure that I know what he's saying...it's just that look or whatever that you get from some people, there isnt really any way to describe it, you just know that people are looking at you differently, and unless you've experianced it first hand, there's no way to really put it into words...they just kind of look at you like you're automatically some kind of criminal or that they're better than you or something...makes me want to smack them...





Wayfarer said:


> You mean that look that obviously says, "What are you doing here? Can't you see you don't belong?"


Yep, that's the one...


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

If Howard was ever called Meathead it was in error. Hamburger helper maybe.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

StevenRocks said:


> Yep, that's the one...


Yeah, I used to get that look when I lived in the Detroit area. Wander into a party store you've never been in before, find out you're the only white guy for blocks around, you're lucky to get served and luckier to make it back to your car without getting jacked. Know that look well.

Bet no one saw that coming. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Oakland California 1976. Jo-Jo and I walk to our favourite barbershop. Much of today's black population migrated in WW2 to work the west coast shipyards or serve in the Navy. Our barber was in the army and worked on the ALCAN and was always eager to talk about Alaska. We were barbered, shaved and our shoes shined without need to us but needed by the man making a living. The shop staff gave us 'the look' of professional approval and when learning our evening plans let out a whistle. We boarded BART for SF to pick up our dates. This Oakland matron in Blue dress, hat and white gloves ordered me to stand still and brushed some city debri from my tarback. She gave us ' the look' and commented how nice it was to see good looking men in uniform around town again. We said "thankyou ma'am" and told her our plans. She smiled and said her late husband had all the records. We collected our dates at San Francisco State; Jo Jo's asian american and mine with just about every racial group in her ancestry. Some tourists and a few gay couples gave us 'the look.' We traveled back to Oakland and walked a short distance to our club. The staff, the audience, all gave us ' the look.' We looked over and saw our barber, his partner son and their wives. We all gave each other 'the look' and swapped tables to sit together. Lena Horne walked out on stage. Everybody gave her 'the look.' After the performance she came out and visited with each table briefly. She gave Jo Jo and me 'the look' and each a kiss and hug. People look at each other all the time. The rule is to look back, literaly and figuratively and remember the good looks, given and received.


----------



## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

StevenRocks said:


> Sorry to disagree, but I hear people all around me, lately in the Michael Vick case, that want him hung or his livelihood taken away forever without even knowing the facts of the story. I have to admit his chances of not being convicted are pretty slim based on the evidence, but a lot of those people primarily see skin color and discuss the facts later. If you think about it, the people that blindly support him despite the evidence are doing the same thing, though their motive is that he be let off scot-free, which is not going to happen based on what we know so far about the case.


I heard about this case (and the evidence) and wanted the guy sent down myself, and I didn't know he was black. He's accused of torturing, electrocuting and strangling dogs. That's just... you know, pretty unconscionable to most people who even sort of like animals a little bit.

What I know about pro sports could fit on a couple of post-its (which explains why my coin-toss picked Fantasy Football team is sucking wind), but I do know that Pete Rose will probably never make it into the Hall of Fame, even though he was a tremendous player. And he didn't even drown any puppies.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

VS said:


> What I know about pro sports could fit on a couple of post-its (which explains why my coin-toss picked Fantasy Football team is sucking wind), but I do know that Pete Rose will probably never make it into the Hall of Fame, even though he was a tremendous player. And he didn't even drown any puppies.


When told he would not be allowed into the Hall of Fame, Pete is reported to have said, "Want to bet?"


----------



## StevenRocks (May 24, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Yeah, I used to get that look when I lived in the Detroit area. Wander into a party store you've never been in before, find out you're the only white guy for blocks around, you're lucky to get served and luckier to make it back to your car without getting jacked. Know that look well.
> 
> Bet no one saw that coming. :icon_smile_big:


Touché. That's a bad situation. But usually all the races can come together for beer :icon_smile_big:



VS said:


> I heard about this case (and the evidence) and wanted the guy sent down myself, and I didn't know he was black. He's accused of torturing, electrocuting and strangling dogs. That's just... you know, pretty unconscionable to most people who even sort of like animals a little bit.
> 
> What I know about pro sports could fit on a couple of post-its (which explains why my coin-toss picked Fantasy Football team is sucking wind), but I do know that Pete Rose will probably never make it into the Hall of Fame, even though he was a tremendous player. And he didn't even drown any puppies.


But almost nobody ever based their opinion on Pete Rose's innocence or guilt on his skin color. He gambled when he shouldn't have. Race doesn't have a lot to do with it. I do think he got a raw deal, and I do think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

In Mike Vick's case, he was a tremendous player in college, and a very good, if not terribly disciplined, player in the pros. Still he was dogged (no pun intended) his whole post high school career by people who likely weren't basing their opinions solely on his playing ability.

He didn't help himself by making some really horrible personal choices under the public microscope. And I don't condone anything that he does based on his race, just like I don't hate him based on it (which,on either side, a lot of people do that I talk to do)


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

StevenRocks said:


> Touché. That's a bad situation. But usually all the races can come together for beer :icon_smile_big:


Now that's worth drinking too! Cheers


----------



## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

StevenRocks said:


> In Mike Vick's case, he was a tremendous player in college, and a very good, if not terribly disciplined, player in the pros. Still he was dogged (no pun intended) his whole post high school career by people who likely weren't basing their opinions solely on his playing ability.
> 
> He didn't help himself by making some really horrible personal choices under the public microscope. And I don't condone anything that he does based on his race, just like I don't hate him based on it (which,on either side, a lot of people do that I talk to do)


Ok, but my point is that people are basing their criticism of Michael Vick post-dogfight knowledge on what he's accused of, not on his ethnicity. I don't think people would condone a white quarterback doing the same thing.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> Does he call you "meathead"?


No,I'm more of a "shmuck" to him in his eyes.


----------



## StevenRocks (May 24, 2005)

VS said:


> Ok, but my point is that people are basing their criticism of Michael Vick post-dogfight knowledge on what he's accused of, not on his ethnicity. I don't think people would condone a white quarterback doing the same thing.


Maybe the people you know are, but I'm near his old alma matter and I hear a lot of things that suggest otherwise.

Some of these people I know the same ones who turned a blind eye to another former star Virginia Tech quarterback, Jim Druckenmiller, allegedly raping a woman several years ago. 'Druck' was acquitted due to lack of positive evidence, but at no point did I ever hear anyone calling for his execution like several of the people who've talked to me about Mike Vick have stated.

It sounds sensational, but it's a jarring commentary on human emotions.


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

I think in the last 40 years or more bigotry has declined considerably between white and black. There are so many thoughts in the past that many younger people have never heard of them before, much more think them.

Not saying there are not still hard case people, but the black and white conflict today is peanuts compare yesterday of 40 years ago. So, I think positively on this subject. In another 20 years a whole group of youngests will not have been intangled as the last group of 20 years haven't been intangled with so much that was before them. Clearly progress is being made. What 30 year olds think today is terrible is peanuts compare 50 years ago.


----------



## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

WA said:


> I think in the last 40 years or more bigotry has declined considerably between white and black. There are so many thoughts in the past that many younger people have never heard of them before, much more think them.
> 
> Not saying there are not still hard case people, but the black and white conflict today is peanuts compare yesterday of 40 years ago. So, I think positively on this subject. In another 20 years a whole group of youngests will not have been intangled as the last group of 20 years haven't been intangled with so much that was before them. Clearly progress is being made. What 30 year olds think today is terrible is peanuts compare 50 years ago.


Not sure I agree...hear me out...

I think many bigots today are more sophisticated as far as how they handle their bigotry. In the old South you could just say what you wanted. In the North you had to be careful but the "Archie Bunker" stereotype was not that uncommon. While it is less acceptable today to go public in this manner I think that it is still around us. I never heard of Vics before his encounter with the law and I am not sure that anyone would not be scrutinized the same way, in my eyes they would and should. But bigotry has not gotten less, it has just gotten more subtle. As some of you have heard kids say things like "that is so gay" without meaning it as a remark on homosexuality, it is still bigotry, they are just not sure of where the bigotry came from or how they are inflaming..ignorance bliss, no, just ignorant. In any case we are not as diverse as we would like to think and we all carry with us traits that are not so admirable, from the most liberal to the most outwardly bigoted. Just my take.

One last point, for many white kids it has now become cool to be black, the fashion, the music, white kids with dreds, please go away...but the lines are blurred. But when it comes down to it just watch what happens when an altercation starts and how fast the words of prejudice begin to fly.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Would "prejudice" and "bigotry" mean the same thing,because in a way they both mean hatred.


----------



## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

StevenRocks said:


> Maybe the people you know are, but I'm near his old alma matter and I hear a lot of things that suggest otherwise.
> 
> Some of these people I know the same ones who turned a blind eye to another former star Virginia Tech quarterback, Jim Druckenmiller, allegedly raping a woman several years ago. 'Druck' was acquitted due to lack of positive evidence, but at no point did I ever hear anyone calling for his execution like several of the people who've talked to me about Mike Vick have stated.
> 
> It sounds sensational, but it's a jarring commentary on human emotions.


Oh, I believe ya. However, sex crimes are notoriously hard to prove. I never thought Kobe Bryant was guilty, to bring up another alleged rape case.

Famous people are surrounded by weirdos who do and say strange things.


----------



## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

VS said:


> Oh, I believe ya. However, sex crimes are notoriously hard to prove. I never thought Kobe Bryant was guilty, to bring up another alleged rape case.


...but certainly guilty of adultery (which is barely even discussed - it's normal).


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

guitone said:


> Not sure I agree...hear me out...
> 
> I think many bigots today are more sophisticated as far as how they handle their bigotry. In the old South you could just say what you wanted. In the North you had to be careful but the "Archie Bunker" stereotype was not that uncommon. While it is less acceptable today to go public in this manner I think that it is still around us. I never heard of Vics before his encounter with the law and I am not sure that anyone would not be scrutinized the same way, in my eyes they would and should. But bigotry has not gotten less, it has just gotten more subtle. As some of you have heard kids say things like "that is so gay" without meaning it as a remark on homosexuality, it is still bigotry, they are just not sure of where the bigotry came from or how they are inflaming..ignorance bliss, no, just ignorant. In any case we are not as diverse as we would like to think and we all carry with us traits that are not so admirable, from the most liberal to the most outwardly bigoted. Just my take.
> 
> One last point, for many white kids it has now become cool to be black, the fashion, the music, white kids with dreds, please go away...but the lines are blurred. But when it comes down to it just watch what happens when an altercation starts and how fast the words of prejudice begin to fly.


Bigotry is a form of war. Men have done their best not to have another war and then somebody starts one.

This person, who is now dead, was telling me about his years being a highway patrol officer. It was normal for them to pull over black people and take them in and harass them for hours. He didn't know why they did it. When he talked to me he wouldn't have anything to do with it anymore, because he was against it. And if he saw that kind of harassment he would put a stop to it. While we still hear about it now and then (more often in the south) what used to happen doesn't happen anymore on a big scale. As the older people die with their problems I don't see hardly any younger people picking up the serious problems of the past. Are we out of the woods yet? No! But a whole lot closer!


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The phenomenon you refer to is called 'driving while black.' If you live in some idyllic state where it no longer happens pulease tell me. I was in a car when this happened to the driver- my date, in 1998 in Santa Barbera.


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> The phenomenon you refer to is called 'driving while black.' If you live in some idyllic state where it no longer happens pulease tell me. I was in a car when this happened to the driver- my date, in 1998 in Santa Barbera.


The guy worked in OR.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Kav said:


> The phenomenon you refer to is called 'driving while black.' If you live in some idyllic state where it no longer happens pulease tell me. I was in a car when this happened to the driver- my date, in 1998 in Santa Barbera.


I have a friend who works for the St. Louis County PD, and he was telling me that they now have a program that requires all officers to document, through their squadcar's computer, the race, sex, time of day, reason for the stop etc. on every traffic stop, even if no citation is involved. The system keeps statistics on how many stops each officer has made and the racial makeup of those stopped. The numbers are weighed according to the racial demographics of each precinct. 
Now obviously an officer could continue to pull cars over without putting in a radio call, but that would be pretty stupid on their part to pull someone over and not let dispatch know about it. Besides, he said that anyone caught not following procedure is suspended without pay. Step in the right direction IMO.


----------



## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Kav said:


> The phenomenon you refer to is called 'driving while black.' If you live in some idyllic state where it no longer happens pulease tell me. I was in a car when this happened to the driver- my date, in 1998 in Santa Barbera.


I still see it here in MA, land of the liberal.


----------



## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I think people these days they don't see the good in themselves,they feel they should label others but it's not right.People shouldn't be that way.


----------

