# LLBean v. LE v. North Face v. Patagonia....



## rwjones (Jan 29, 2009)

Do the higher-end brands such as North Face, Patagonia, and Marmot offer any additional benefits relative to Bean and Lands End and their competitors? When I look at the websites, they usually have the same grade of, say, goose down (~500) but prices from North Face are WAY higher. Is it just a label recognition thing, or are these more expensive brands actually better? Do they honestly provide more resistance against cold, wind, and moisture, or is it a gimmick?


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## The Swedish Chef (Feb 16, 2009)

Good question. Not being based in the US I'm not able to comment on LLBean, but as a climber I regularly use products from Patagonia and Marmot, (not so much TNF).

With a "real" outdoor specialist like Patagonia what your getting is a more technical piece of clothing, considerable thought would have gone into where the pockets sit when you're wearing a climbing harness, how the zip operates with gloves on, does the hood fit over a helmet, how does the stitching hold up under stress, etc. etc. 

Also with Patagonia you get brand which gives 1% of turnover to charity, is very active in environmental issues and supports a number of excellent athletes.

I will happily pay extra for that particular brand as those features are important to me. I do not consider TNF to be at this level of performance and would not pay the their prices.

Comparable pieces from a good quality source against a specialist will normally offer good wind/water/warm functionality but not exceptional and will not have those extra design features. Whether you feel the price difference is worth it is down to your intended use and depth of pocket.

This article will inform you about down quality


Hope that helps a little


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## budrichard (Apr 3, 2008)

If you are using these items for technical outdoor pursuits where they might provide the difference between severe hardship or possibly death, then the higher end brands are usually considred worthwhile but if you are mostly in a vehicle or in a non remote type environment than any will suffice. Of the lower priced suppliers I think LL Bean well above the quality of say Land's End of which I wouldn't purchase anything.
Top of the line gear from say Arcteryx is made with the latest in materials and the stiching is the best. I have mostly Arcteryx and Patagonia for outdoor pursuits but do have LL Bean hunting clothing which is very well manufactured but then again, Arcteryx and Patagonia produce no hunting apparel.-Dick


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## ChiliPalmer (Nov 18, 2008)

rwjones said:


> Do the higher-end brands such as North Face, Patagonia, and Marmot offer any additional benefits relative to Bean and Lands End and their competitors? When I look at the websites, they usually have the same grade of, say, goose down (~500) but prices from North Face are WAY higher. Is it just a label recognition thing, or are these more expensive brands actually better? Do they honestly provide more resistance against cold, wind, and moisture, or is it a gimmick?


This may not be getting to the root of the question, but if it's down that you're after, you should look no further than Feathered Friends. Handmade in Seattle, WA.


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## The Swedish Chef (Feb 16, 2009)

Arcteryx is another excellent brand, although very expensive in Europe considering that they no longer manufacture their clothes in Canada, but in China.

It should be noted that down based clothes will keep you warm when they are dry but when wet they offer no warmth and are extremely heavy.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

In my experience, if you are looking for something to keep you warm as you walk into the mall, LL Bean and Lands End will do just fine.

If you are going to be outside hiking, climbing, hunting, etc., it is well worth spending the extra money for top quality gear from TNF, Patagonia, or Mountain Hardware.


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## ChiliPalmer (Nov 18, 2008)

smujd said:


> In my experience, if you are looking for something to keep you warm as you walk into the mall, LL Bean and Lands End will do just fine.
> 
> If you are going to be outside hiking, climbing, hunting, etc., it is well worth spending the extra money for top quality gear from TNF, Patagonia, or Mountain Hardware.


Mountain Hardware is a subsidiary of Columbia Sportswear, a publicly trader company.

TNF is a subsidiary of the VF Group, another publicly traded company.

Patagonia and Feathered Friends are locally owned businesses. Feathered Friends will allow for some customization, including fabric (more or less durable, more or less waterproof, etc.) and color.

MH, TNF, and Patagonia can be found on sale. Feathered Friends cannot.


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## budrichard (Apr 3, 2008)

The Swedish Chef said:


> Arcteryx is another excellent brand, although very expensive in Europe considering that they no longer manufacture their clothes in Canada, but in China.
> 
> It should be noted that down based clothes will keep you warm when they are dry but when wet they offer no warmth and are extremely heavy.


I was not aware of the change in ownership(twice) of Arcteryx. While they have followed the standard business model and made a lot of money for the original owners, its customers do not want garments Made in China for the same cost. Obviously the current owners are only looking at the bottom line.
My wife and i own two complete outfits each of jackets and bibs and many pieces of insulation purchased while they were still hard to procure , Made in Canada and they are truly bullet proof. From now on I can not give a reccamndation to Arteryx unless its Made in Canada or you examine it closely for workmanship or better yet, get a substantial discount.
It is truly sad to see virtually every company go for the bottom line.
I still purchase some Patagonia gear but Patagonia has never made a secret of it manufacture off shore and some of its gear is still very good and if purchased say on discount, a good value.-Dick

As to down, down is of value in very cold very dry climates. As stated unless you are on Mount Everest or the Antarctic, exercise will soak your down and you will get cold. Try layering your down parka over your shell for more moderate conditions. Certainly in The UK, Barbour seems much better suited to the weather! For activites like XC skiing its artifical insulation all the way but for sedentary outdoor cold weather here in Wisconsin, its down.


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## em36 (Feb 10, 2004)

*Patagonia*

Google "Climbing Ice" by Yvon Chouinard; Patagonia's founder. He also used to make climbing gear: cams, axes, etc. That was spun-off to Black Diamond Equipment long ago. Their gear is the real-deal. I have a Nitro anorak from 1993 that I used while skiing and climbing. Bombproof. During the nineties it became "patagucci," however the stuff has never suffered in quality.

The same can not be said of North Face gear.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

I have a TNF El Cap shirt which I have worn for literally years. Mostly in the Canadian wilds actually, and I've barely noticed any wear. I also own a TNF backpack. Both are acceptable and durable, although expensive. They're comparable in quality to MEC or SD.

I own a great deal of Columbia and MH gear. Generally, it's good stuff, sometimes overbuilt. My only complaint is a synthetic parka is not warm enough for a Canadian winter and the clerk at the local shop told me it was "the best". That clerk was a stranger to the truth, to say the least.

I'm looking forward to using my 40L MH backpack this summer. Should be big enough for an overnighter.

Thomas


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## medhat (Jan 15, 2006)

em36 said:


> Google "Climbing Ice" by Yvon Chouinard; Patagonia's founder. He also used to make climbing gear: cams, axes, etc. That was spun-off to Black Diamond Equipment long ago. Their gear is the real-deal. I have a Nitro anorak from 1993 that I used while skiing and climbing. Bombproof. During the nineties it became "patagucci," however the stuff has never suffered in quality.
> 
> The same can not be said of North Face gear.


I know someone who works for VF, the parent company for North Face, who shares the sentiment, while still/more stylish, not the same technical outerwear on which they've built their reputation. I think Patagonia's rep still holds true, however. I just saw an article (WSJ?) that Eddie Bauer has stated publicly that they want to "return to their roots" in rugged outerwear (as opposed to mall-wear). Land's End and LL Bean have experience similar migration from their core products, but that probably reflects the realities of the market.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

Bean and Lands End provide everything from winter jackets to ties and belts and shoes etc. You can get a suit from Lands End so its not like they are trying to grab a niche and dominate it, they are trying to grab a look or style and dominate it. I was shopping for a winter coat this past year and had a chance to see the LE coats up close in Sears and I was seriously not impressed. Its not that they were made poorly its that they arent the experts in the niche. 

I really now try to shop for things that are made not by known brand name i.e. Versace or Boss but by companies that are niche specialists like Turnbull and Asser for a shirt or Allen Edmunds for shoes rather than say Kenneth Cole.

Bean probably comes closer than LE for a good winter jacket but I would rather be in one made by North Face if I was trying to stay alive in a snow storm.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Get a copy of the Winter Wilderness Companion by the Conover's
Read the extensive archived articles by the combative, controversial and insulation expert Jerry Wigetow of www.wiggys.com
Look at a forum member and vendor who sells FILSON at a discount.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*North Face*

Gentlemen

I just wrote a comment in the other forum. IMO, yes. LL Bean, Orvis and Brooks all make crap now. Like the climber here, I have all my life done all of it. Climbing, white water raft, ski diving and so on.

I have been burned by crap gear Bean and the other great companies now.
Mountain Hardwear, Archterryx , Marmot, Patogonia make great items.
Canada Goose for their down. Archterryx makes a great pack. Patogonia capiline is the best.
Architerryx year ago, put out the best shell. That was not gore tex. Which, IMO can be a bad choice. When soaked, it is crap.
I have used both gore tex products, and non gore tex. I like the Mountain Hardwear conduit system.
Long story short, there are people, who appreciate quality stuff.
I have been through crap, that has failed me.
IMO
Nice day


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Gear*

Gentlemen

I want to share a story. I experienced a long time ago. I am 25 years military, appreciate good gear.
I have been burned, and almost killed . Because of an idiot partner, who I dont climb or camp with anymore.
It was in a beautiful, well known to climbers, an area in the Rockies.
St Marys Glachier. Google this my friends. It will bring up the most beautiful place in the world.
Only known by outdoor types.
We winter packed their. My partner, a great hiker etc. Brought the tent.
Gentlemen, I should have checked all the gear myself. It was a Sears tent, plastic pegs. We got hit by a blizzard, the wind took most of the tent apart. It kept up for the night.
We were stranded for 3 days my friend. A bad blizzard etc.
Anyway, I appreciate quality, and will pay for it.
And I dont trust people anymore!
LOL

Nice day


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## em36 (Feb 10, 2004)

Agreed.

If one wants boring, bomber gear as an alternative to Patagonia, try Wild Things. The founder was a big climber/parapenter, and has made climbing suits for years, stuff that keeps you alive when 100 mi winds try to knowck you down. They also make gear for the Marine Corp and Army Mountain Division. Or Feathered Friends.

Now does anyone know if Bibler or Dana Designs has suffered in quality?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I came out of military service and a season doing brownie surveys in Kenai to start college.
I took a biology class with field trips, the first to the Anza-Borrega desert. I was so broke, my 'sleeping bag' was a beat up kapot car sleeper and a service issue woolen blanket . I still spent a cold and sleepless night.
I took my next G.I. Bill check straight to a great ski rental and hiking store ( sadly pushed out by the big chain stores.)
I'm looking at a good 3 season down bag and trying to decide.The salesman suddenly offered me a unsaleable 4 season, Trailwize of Berkeley down bag for LESS than the three season units.I asked to see it. Instead of the fashionable cobalt blue or bright red, this thing was sort of a split pea soup pukie green. I bought the thing, along with a Silva Ranger compass I still use, balaclava,mittens and socks from Dachstein.I still had pizza and beer money left over.
The next field trip found us again out in the desert, only there was an unpredicted snowfall. People went running, or more like big red and cobalt blue worms inching in their bags for cars: and most cars in college were VW bugs.
I just sort of rolled my wool blanket over me and went to sleep.
I woke up covered with a thin layer of snow and had to help thaw the doors open on all the bugs while drinking my hot coffee in front of all.
That bag lasted 20 years with 5 professional cleanings until it started to fall apart. I then ripped it open one early spring. I think the bumper crop of baby birds and squirrels was due to the great nesting material I gave back.
I am involved with search and rescue in the local forest, do research for SOLAS and moderate a emergency survival forum.I figure I've bagged as many victoims in the latest style of outdoor wear that failed as people in killer blue jeans.
My kit is a sorry mix of surplus, new and custom. I get really, really strange looks at some of it.It violates Andy's colour wheel and coordination in a manner most brutal.
I sleep warm.


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

Kav said:


> I came out of military service and a season doing brownie surveys in Kenai to start college.
> I took a biology class with field trips, the first to the Anza-Borrega desert. I was so broke, my 'sleeping bag' was a beat up kapot car sleeper and a service issue woolen blanket . I still spent a cold and sleepless night.
> 
> [snip]
> ...


If I ever make it back to the southern end of the Peoples Republic of Left Coastia, I'm going to hunt you down and buy you a couple drinks.

Regards,
Petro.
:wq


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