# Black Suits ... Too



## asaffi (Jun 14, 2005)

*what's the problem about black suits?*

I live in Brazil, and it looks strange to me that some members here avoid using black suits. Why? 
For us, a black suit is like a charcoal or dark gray one. We try to avoid brown suits, (wich seems to be common in Usa). For us, most of the brown suits say " I'm a decadent old employee in this company, been in the same position for years". 
What do members here think about black suits?


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

They are perfect for funerals and actors in films by Quentin Tarantino.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

asaffi said:


> We try to avoid brown suits, (wich seems to be common in Usa). For us, most of the brown suits say " I'm a decadent old employee in this company, been in the same position for years".


Not going to touch the black suit question.

But brown suits are similarly regarded in the US to how you say they are in Brazil. They are usually avoided for business (except in places where suits are not generally worn for business) and convey something of the image you mention - though I don't think you meant 'decadent' in the way the word is generally regarded.


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## tmack3 (Jan 14, 2006)

i would not wear a black suit in the day or to a business meeting. black is perfectly fine in the evening and at funerals.

i like brown suits, but generally only during the day.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*The Long Debate*

Here are 586 postings in a single thread on this topic. I'm not sure how much more should be said...

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=8221


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Gads. This has been beaten to death, so I'll direct you to a thread from SF:

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=8221&highlight="black+suit"

Couldn't find one of the threads here, but the arguments are always the same. In short, black traditionally has been considered inappropriate for daytime wear. Purists believe it should be reserved for dinner jackets.

Some believe the "rules" have changed, while others do not. Some folks think black looks great in the daytime; others do not.

I'm in the latter camp on both debates.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Ever speedy, Medwards! Ever speedy!


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## suds-okeefe (Aug 12, 2006)

I like a black suit for a change of pace.:icon_smile:


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

DocHolliday said:


> Gads. This has been beaten to death...
> Couldn't find one of the threads here, but the arguments are always the same. In short, black traditionally has been considered inappropriate for daytime wear. Purists believe it should be reserved for dinner jackets. Some believe the "rules" have changed, while others do not. Some folks think black looks great in the daytime; others do not. I'm in the latter camp on both debates.


Indeed. Here's a another taste of the debate from a not terribly distant AAAC Forum discussion on whether the rules on black suits have changed:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=34598


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

_Black suits? Slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch..._


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

DocHolliday said:


> Gads. This has been beaten to death, so I'll direct you to a thread from SF:
> 
> https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=8221&highlight="black+suit"
> 
> ...


Yes most forum members will cringe when they see another post on this subject. Definitely read the SF thread first before starting the war again following the long ceasefire.

Yes, it is just a the Doc says. Black has been traditionally regarded an inappropriate colour for a lounge suit. This has to do with the fact that lounge suits are meant to be a form of smart casual dress and black is a formal colour. Traditionally men did wear black morning coats and frock coats during the day because these are more formal coats. In fact black is more correct for these types of coats than charcoal grey.

I am now running for cover before WWIII erupts.....


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Here is where Tomasso inserts a link to world war three.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Black suits are fine, so long as you are Dan Ackroyd, John Belushi, or a Roman Catholic priest.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

JLPWCXIII said:


> Black suits are fine, so long as you are...John Belushi....


Actually, they look fine on any corpse. Not terribly bad on Mafiosi or RC priests either. But I will refrain from drawing any connections or conclusions from this. :devil:


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

I am definitely not acringe to black suits, but I do see them only worn appropriately for only the fewest occasions.
Wedding
Funeral
Evening out at a banquet, ball, etc. More preferably to wear a tux then.
Or if you are an eccentric multimillionaire with charm, sophisticate, etc. I dont know.

navy, charcoal, grey and brown seems more ready for everyday wear, business, meetings, clients, interviews, dates, church, more commonplace going out. etc.


another thing why i think black makes a suit more exclusive is the inflexibility of getting a little dirty.
if i wear a navy suit or grey suit for work and i get a little dirty by end of day, shoes, a little wrinkle in the suit, a little dust , unbutton collar button, etc. i still would look good. it is a manly look. it says i worked and you know.

but with a black suit, it is more like a i need to keep clean and no wrinkles, if i have a little dirty shoes or wrinkling in the suit , it just looks awkward in black suit. i look like a maitre d or usher who just chased down a car who the owner forgot his wallet or something.


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

What Brian says makes sense.

There is an almost religious "against black" rule for some members here... black trousers, suits or shoes are anathema for them...

my practical view is:

Black suits are great for formal ocassions and evenings or nights out. They are great for a night at the disco or for a wedding or chic party for example... that is what I use them for, like a modern take on the tuxedo... in fact a black suit is like a tuxedo without the satin/silk additions, which is good in these times that tuxes are very seldom required, but keeps the elegance of the "black tie" dress.

I don't like them too much during the day, because they in my opinion don't look so well in full daylight, a blue or dark grey are more standard for business.

Anyway a black suit makes also an statement.... I love them.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

I saw a young gentleman fresh from the club in a black suit (all three buttons buttoned) with a black shirt and a red tie. I bet when he left the house he thought he looked good. To me he just looked like he a) only owned that suit b) had no conspicuous sense of color or style. 

Most people on this forum tend to own multiple suits and part of their daily ritual is waking up, surveying a closet filled with suits, shoes and ties and using color to make an outfit come to life. Black doesnt allow this.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

If made from a high quality acrylic, black suits tone with the wearer's basketball shoes.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

I would like it noted for the record that many of the anti-black suit sentiments aired in this thread exceed in substance and intensity anything I have ever said on the subject.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

But you said it so well!


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## tel star (Jul 26, 2006)

Yes, black suits are _de rigeur_ for the seriously dressed RC priest, but can be 'brightened up' with interesting linings and other features like slanted pockets and - of course - a pocket square. Why would you wear a black suit, though, if you didn't have to?

ts


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

manton said:


> I would like it noted for the record that many of the anti-black suit sentiments aired in this thread exceed in substance and intensity anything I have ever said on the subject.


 Sure. You only offered that because you *know* that absolutely nobody is going to go back and read those 52 damn pages again just to prove you wrong. :icon_smile_wink:


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Sure. You only offered that because you *know* that absolutely nobody is going to go back and read those 52 damn pages again just to prove you wrong. :icon_smile_wink:


I defy anyone to try. A few heated comments against flat-earthism don't count.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Why do the words "oily," "mafia" and "bad" come to mind?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

medwards said:


> Why do the words "oily," "mafia" and "bad" come to mind?


Those aren't in that thread! (At least I don't think so.) Besides, I meant them as compliments.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

manton said:


> I defy anyone to try. A few heated comments against flat-earthism don't count.


But everyone knows that the real evidence is on the Internets:

Seeing is believing!


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

manton said:


> Those aren't in that thread! (At least I don't think so.)


Medwards: I'll take pp 1-26 if you take 27-52 ...


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

But "color sink" and "I hate black suits" are surely there...though my favourite is that the discussion was a "sartorio-philosophic debate (though "prolegomenon" isn't a term we find too often on this forum).

Alex, it's the location not the substance he is disputing. We all know manton has read pge 81 of Mr. Antongiavanni's _The Suit_ just like the rest of us!


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

In england, black suits are only worn by those in the servicing businesses.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

medwards said:


> But "color sink" and "I hate black suits" are surely there...though my favourite is that the discussion was a "sartorio-philosophic debate."


I stand by "color sink" and "I hate black suits." The former in part (though not entirely) explains the latter.

As I said in that thread, I make only two claims about black suits:

1) They were traditionally not observed or made in the London/Milan/Naples/New York bespoke tradition.

2) I hate them.

I (we all) spent very little (almost no) time on #2. Yet to this day I remain somewhat befuddled and flattered that people care so much. The thread spent a lot of time on #1 because of the persistent, insistent, unpersuasive denials of one individual.

I note also that every time this topic comes up, there is a general expectation that I will appear as a sort of anti-black suit avenger, even though I never do. And even though I do not, it is widely reported that I have. It is one of the urban myths of the forum. That above all prompted my initial post in this thread.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

_The only virtue of a black suit is, you can spill bourbon on it, and it won't show -- _manton


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## JMatt (Feb 16, 2006)

manton said:


> I note also that every time this topic comes up, there is a general expectation that I will appear as a sort of anti-black suit avenger, even though I never do. And even though I do not, it is widely reported that I have. It is one of the urban myths of the forum. That above all prompted my initial post in this thread.


Actually, there is a higher authority on point. I recently read a new author on the scene, who succinctly states: "Still valid, however, is the rule which holds that solid black is too severe for suitings."

Had you read the same book, perhaps you too could have been so succinct, and saved many of your posts on topic.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

medwards said:


> _The only virtue of a black suit is, you can spill bourbon on it, and it won't show -- _manton


Come on, man, be charitable. At that point the thread had become a free for all. We were having some fun. And, in any case, I think that remark is less biting than some of the ones posted above in this thread. Why don't those people acquire the repuation of anti-black suit avenger?

To say this for the thousandth time, WEAR YOUR BLACK SUIT IF YOU LIKE IT! Just because I don't, why should you care?


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Most of you should not be wearing black suits. For me, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, it's quite desirable. 

I wear black suits (not always, obviously) as a political statement. That statement being "the King, Queen, and nobles be damned."

Long live the Republic.


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

They are also very popular among Benedictine monks.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Actually, manton, I'm on your side on this one.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

A rather trendy 3-piece black suit


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

I believe we've still to address whether a black and white houndstooth suiting is half bad or half OK. Thoughts?


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## JMatt (Feb 16, 2006)

manton said:


> Come on, man, be charitable. At that point the thread had become a free for all. We were having some fun. And, in any case, I think that remark is less biting than some of the ones posted above in this thread. Why don't those people acquire the repuation of anti-black suit avenger?
> 
> To say this for the thousandth time, WEAR YOUR BLACK SUIT IF YOU LIKE IT! Just because I don't, why should you care?


I too am actually on your side. The one comment that got me originally, was that black pants with white shirts makes one look like wait staff in the U.S. Ouch.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Will said:


> I believe we've still to address whether a black and white houndstooth suiting is half bad or half OK. Thoughts?


And you better do it rather quickly inasmuch as I just asked Peter Harvey to lay aside some 10ounce black and white houndstooth fabric for me.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

JMatt said:


> I too am actually on your side. The one comment that got me originally, was that black pants with white shirts makes one look like wait staff in the U.S. Ouch.


Black suits are nothing more than sartorial training wheels. You are in high school and have aspirations to become a lawyer. You join the debate team and go out to Jack's Slack Shack and pick up a black suit with some black shoes. Throw on one of dad's ties and you're all set! This is also why it works so well for uniforms.

However for the most part, the members of AAAC's fora have moved beyond this phase and are happy to assist men in getting to the next level of their sartorial development. This is why it gets such disdain here.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I wear a black blazer,Would that be acceptable?


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## NZNorm (May 9, 2005)

Here in the Antipodes, I wear a black suit and a blue Thomas Pink shirt. That's why they call it the provinces.


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## JMatt (Feb 16, 2006)

Howard said:


> I wear a black blazer,Would that be acceptable?


Actually - I too own a black blazer. Technically it's a cashmere sport coat and not a blazer. I wear it with odd charcoal trousers when I know I'm not going outside the office that day. It's generic, matches anything grey, and sets off any tie nicely.

I also have a pair of black Zanella trousers with a nice textured weave. I wear them much more rarely now.

Finally - I own (GASP) a black suit. I bought it in law school for my first moot court argument. I haven't worn it since AAAC/SF.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Once in awhile I see somebody in black who looks splended wearing black. But most people wearing black should lighten up.

I'm not sure why people wear grey. It's not a color, either. Once in awhile grey looks fine, but it is a noncolor that is over worn. Although, another color with it makes it look better in most cases.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

medwards said:


> And you better do it rather quickly inasmuch as I just asked Peter Harvey to lay aside some 10ounce black and white houndstooth fabric for me.


I have some 9 oz. Holland & Sherry. Was debating whether it's OK to wear the white part of the cloth after Labor Day when I realized that practice would leave me with a badly fitting black suit.

I will see Peter in San Francisco this coming Wednesday. My plan is a tan 10 oz. Minnis fresco jacket with patch pockets and gold buttons if he'll make it unlined. Of course, few of my plans survive contact with the fabric books.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Will said:


> I believe we've still to address whether a black and white houndstooth suiting is half bad or half OK. Thoughts?


Of course it is fine. The overall effect from a distance is that it looks grey.

Also would you use houndstooth for a dinner jacket or tail coat? Would you wear it to a funeral?


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

"Would you wear it to a funeral?"

It's a sports suiting and would be appropriate to recognize the departure of a mortal enemy.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

odoreater said:


> Most of you should not be wearing black suits. For me, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, it's quite desirable.
> 
> I wear black suits (not always, obviously) as a political statement. That statement being "the King, Queen, and nobles be damned."
> 
> Long live the Republic.


In fact wearing of black after the French revolution was symbolic of mourning in sympathy for the executed members of the French aristocracy. The tradition remains with the black facing seen on collars of overcoats. The reason being that was where the guillotine fell.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Will said:


> "Would you wear it to a funeral?"
> 
> It's a sports suiting and would be appropriate to celebrate the departure of a mortal enemy.


My point exactly. So black/white houndstooth has none of the social or symbolic connotations associated with solid black suiting. It is a different kettle of fish entirely. I tend to regard it as another sort of grey.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

manton said:


> Come on, man, be charitable. At that point the thread had become a free for all. We were having some fun. And, in any case, I think that remark is less biting than some of the ones posted above in this thread. Why don't those people acquire the repuation of anti-black suit avenger?


If you're abdicating your post, maybe I should apply ....


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

I would suggest that Will was being humorous with his initial enquiry about houndstooth fabric. He is quite aware, I can assure you, of its propriety. The real debate is over black and white glen plaid. :devil: 

And despite the folklore, the black facing was to keep hair oils and grease from showing on one's coat. Displaying sympathy or mourning for those who went to the guillotine was a good way to get one a similar journey.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Semi-serious question, do the presence of pinstripes in any way make the black suit more appropriate?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> And despite the folklore, the black facing was to keep hair oils and grease from showing on one's coat. Displaying sympathy or mourning for those who went to the guillotine was a good way to get one a similar journey.


True - if you were in France. Elsewhere the French Revolution spurred a whole variety of guillotine styles sported by those expressing sympathy for the French aristocracy. It is definitely more than just folklore.

EDIT: I have just looked it up and it is very clear that members of the French aristocracy still did wear black silk as a symbol of mourning for the demise of royalty. Black cloth was worn by people with pro-Democratic sympathies. So the distinction was quite subtle.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Sator said:


> In fact wearing of black after the French revolution was symbolic of mourning in sympathy for the executed members of the French aristocracy. The tradition remains with the black facing seen on collars of overcoats. The reason being that was where the guillotine fell.


I really don't want to get into it, but, I think the rule of not wearing black comes from the man trying to keep regular folks down.


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## asaffi (Jun 14, 2005)

*what?*

three pages since my first post, this afternoon?
I didn't know I was near a gas tank, when I lit my cigar...


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

NZNorm said:


> Here in the Antipodes, I wear a black suit and a blue Thomas Pink shirt. That's why they call it the provinces.


Blue Pink, eh? Is that like Kid Chicago, the fighter from Detroit?


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

manton said:


> WEAR YOUR BLACK SUIT IF YOU LIKE IT! Just because I don't, why should you care?


Also sprach The Avenger !


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*The Real 'Problem' with Black*



manton said:


> To say this for the thousandth time, WEAR YOUR BLACK SUIT IF YOU LIKE IT! Just because I don't, why should you care?


I couldn't help but throwing in a last bit of mischief Manton and point out something:

https://imageshack.us

https://imageshack.us

Both of our avatars are wearing black.

My guy (Velazquez) is dressed in more severe Spanish black, whereas Nick has obviously read your book and has chosen to relieve the oppressive black with all that red. The following painting of a diplomatic meeting dates from 1604:

https://imageshack.us

Now what were we saying about it being 'traditional' not to wear black for daytime wear? :icon_smile_big:

On a more serious note Spanish dress in austere black was a child of the counter Reformation and soon the trend swept Europe. Just a couple of decades before royalty dressed like this though:

https://imageshack.us

The fact is Spanish black is in a funny way every bit as ostentatious and gradiose as the extravagant dress sported by Henry VIII.

I think there is a lesson here. I wonder if you really do dislike black since you will probably gladly wear a black tail coat? Perhaps the real problem is the abuse of black - its denegration into something trivial by people wearing black t-shirts, jeans and cheap suits as though it were a matter of routine. Really black is a magnificent, powerful and austere colour that deserves our utmost respect. I just wonder if what we should really be saying is that we should reserve this most mysterious of colours to times that are deserving of its darkest, most severe grandeur.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Black Suits are appropriate for just about any occassion.


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

harrybee said:


> A rather trendy 3-piece black suit


that is such a cool picture!

i would not mind to look like that some days. sometimes looking too cheesy sometimes looks cool and manly.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Brian13 said:


> that is such a cool picture!
> 
> i would not mind to look like that some days. sometimes looking too cheesy sometimes looks cool and manly.


Is that supposed to be a red tie?


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Sator said:


> I couldn't help but throwing in a last bit of mischief Manton and point out something:
> 
> https://imageshack.us
> 
> ...


No-one is arguing that black is not completely correct for formal day or evening wear. It's the black lounge suit we're dumping on. Discussing, that is.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Sator, keep in mind that Nick is wearing an academic gown, the most formal of all day wear. Thus, leaving aside the anachronism, black is for that garment not incorrect.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

NZNorm said:


> Here in the Antipodes, I wear a black suit and a blue Thomas Pink shirt. That's why they call it the provinces.


Arggghhh! Black suits, black pinstripe suits ... is there anything else available in "the provinces"?

Three months ago I went in search of a navy SB 2B suit. Not a tall order I would have thought, and a staple for any gentleman's wardrobe. You know what? Not a thing. I even went searching knowing that all I would find is fused, too-long-in-the-arm offerings from our two national (but made in China) brands. In the end I got canvassed, MTM on-line for half the price and twice the quality.

One other gripe that is commonly vented on this forum, too; I hate that people turn up to funerals in t-shirts and jeans. How ironic, then, when I attended the funeral of a 30 yo friend recently and all the similarly aged people were correctly attired in black suits. I wonder how many of them realised that their default suit was actually the correct choice for the day? I will refrain from discussing their footwear or ties.


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

Sator said:


> Really black is a magnificent, powerful and austere colour that deserves our utmost respect. I just wonder if what we should really be saying is that we should reserve this most mysterious of colours to times that are deserving of its darkest, most severe grandeur.


Finally somebody got it right! Thanks Sator.

What I perceive is that in the men's style "rules" for the last century there was not "avoid the black" BUT "reserve the black for the supreme"... That is why tuxes (black tie) and tails (white tie) are the blackest of BLACKs...

Somebody understood here that you should avoid the black because is not stylish and therefore stick to dark blues and charcoal... And never wear black.

Gentlemen you got it wrong.

I do love my black suits, they are good quality and right fitting, I have one 2 button ( cheaper ) to go clubbing ( think of it as a modern tuxedo ) and a canvased 3 button for special occasions... they fit me wonderfully and when I wear them I am the most stylish in the room..

Off course is not for everyday and in full daylight... nor to have as your only suit...

I do have 20 suits, several blues several grays... and I reserve the blacks for those special evenings...

I also have a shawl lapel tux but I simply cannot wear it because NOBODY wears tuxes anymore here... So my black suits are my tuxes.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Nicely put, lakewolf. That's a fair argument.



lakewolf said:


> I also have a shawl lapel tux but I simply cannot wear it because NOBODY wears tuxes anymore here... So my black suits are my tuxes.


A sad indictment on society. Here's one suggestion that I follow: if there are no black tie events in your area, make some! The annual black tie events I host are some of the most enjoyable social occasions, and I'm told, some of the most memorable.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

lakewolf said:


> I also have a shawl lapel tux but I simply cannot wear it because NOBODY wears tuxes anymore here... So my black suits are my tuxes.


What ever happened to the fancy cocktail party at home in black tie? Shawl collars seem better suited to this sort of thing. I think in Europe this sort of thing comes up often around Christmas and New Years doesn't it?

Oh yes I should add that the idea circulated of a 1920s/30s style event would also help keep up the interest of the ladies while not being too tough on the gents. Feel free to invite us all for your New Years black tie get together!!!


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## Kai (Jul 30, 2003)

Wear black suits.
Wear them in the daytime.
Wear them at night.
Wear them to work.
Wear them to social events.

If the suit is well made and fits well, you will look good. 

The "don't wear a black suit" rule was made to be broken.


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## gordgekko (Nov 12, 2004)

Bob Loblaw said:


> However for the most part, the members of AAAC's fora have moved beyond this phase and are happy to assist men in getting to the next level of their sartorial development. This is why it gets such disdain here.


_Alert! Pomposity reaching critical levels! Sack suit explosion imminent!_


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## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

Perhaps this issue would be resolved if those who do not care for black suits/etc not buy them or wear them.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

lakewolf said:


> There is an almost religious "against black" rule for some members here... black trousers, suits or shoes are anathema for them...


Not at all. At most, Manton stated that he dislikes black as a colour in shoes as well as in suits. Hardly a religious rule.

The only generalization ever made here (and it was valid) was that the traditional rule was not to wear black during the day. As stated in this thread, that's actually not entirely correct, that was the traditional rule for lounge suits only. But the traditional rule is also that black shoes are the most acceptable shoes (or even the only acceptably ones in the city).

So even if you could find somebody with strong feelings that we should all follow the traditional rules to the letter, that hypotethical someone would advocate no black for your lounge suits, but black for your shoes. Still no "religious anti-black rule" there.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Oh yeah, I also wear black suits to piss off the squares. Seems like that's working too.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Étienne said:


> Not at all. At most, Manton stated that he dislikes black as a colour in shoes as well as in suits. Hardly a religious rule.
> 
> The only generalization ever made here (and it was valid) was that the traditional rule was not to wear black during the day. As stated in this thread, that's actually not entirely correct, that was the traditional rule for lounge suits only. But the traditional rule is also that black shoes are the most acceptable shoes (or even the only acceptably ones in the city).
> 
> So even if you could find somebody with strong feelings that we should all follow the traditional rules to the letter, that hypotethical someone would advocate no black for your lounge suits, but black for your shoes. Still no "religious anti-black rule" there.


I think it's fine that black suits have replaced black tie for evening wear in certain settings. That's the same evolution that produced the dinner jacket, which in the U.S. has almost completely replaced white tie. The most formal clothing drops off the scale and everything else moves up a peg.

I expect the people who wear them today will in middle age be complaining about the young people who insist that black sweat suits are suitable evening wear. I only wish I knew what the most casual clothing will look like then.


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## Avers (Feb 28, 2006)

Every time I see someone wearing black suit it reminds me of Orthodox Jews. 

Nothing against Hasids, but black suit and overcoat combined with white shirt seems to be the only clothes they wear.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

Avers said:


> Every time I see someone wearing black suit it reminds me of Orthodox Jews.
> 
> Nothing against Hasids, but black suit and overcoat combined with white shirt seems to be the only clothes they wear.


A bit off topic, but I don't believe all Orthodox Jews are Hasids.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Now religion has entered the discussion. This could be a whole new path to hell for the black suit thread.


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## Tutee (Jun 7, 2004)

AlanC said:


> Semi-serious question, do the presence of pinstripes in any way make the black suit more appropriate?


Depends on what you mean by "appropriate".

All of this black suit debate revolves around solid black suits mostly, which have no historic backing as lounge suits. Striped black suitings are an exception and indeed were observed. Most of them were in unfinished worsteds or worsted flannels every now and then---with the popular stripe being a double or triple narrow one. For this one peculiarity you have West End Tailors and their prestigious cliental to blame (completely). This "vogue" came from London and for some strange reason never fully caught on in US (pre WWII).

Universities students also were reluctant to accept it as a form of suiting and it never became popular at any (esp. Princeton or Yale) of the northeastern campuses. Probably one of the reasons why American-Traditional clothing is so devoid of black color. Over and over it was reported that students preferred the darkest of grey flannel slacks with their Shetland jackets but Never black.

So to make Very Long story--super short. Black striped suits have some observance in the classical era. However, it was always presented as "fashionable" city suiting or as a new option But never as "correct" which is a HUGE difference for some. This distinction is true of both American and British esteemed publications of the time.

Likewise, you would almost never spot the "greats" of the era in black suits solid or otherwise may they be Duke, Astaire, Grant, Cooper, Gable, etc.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

ok- how about a black suit for an evening wedding reception in lieu of a tux?


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

Will said:


> I only wish I knew what the most casual clothing will look like then.


I come to imagine that in the future people would be dressed in fitted track suits, like the ones the clones wear in the movie "The Island"...

then there would be a debate about black vs navy or grey track suits


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

acidicboy said:


> ok- how about a black suit for an evening wedding reception in lieu of a tux?


My view is that to a formal evening where the people is expected to wear black tie, one must wear a tuxedo. showing up in a black suit would be underdressed...

In an evening were noone is expected to wear black tie, showing up in a tuxedo would be overdressed, then the black suit is perfectly appropiate.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

I'll admit to being in the minority, but I do have a black suit which gets worn on a fairly regular basis. The pattern is a tone on tone stripe to try and make it look a bit less formal. I never wear a white shirt with it to work. To liven it up, I wear Pink, Peach, Purple, Lavender etc shirts with it and fairly vibrate ties. I personally don't like blue shirts (or at least the blue shirts I have) with black. For those that wear black regularly, what are some of your favorite shirt/tie color combinations?


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Tutee said:


> Likewise, you would almost never spot the "greats" of the era in black suits solid or otherwise may they be Duke, Astaire, Grant, Cooper, Gable, etc.


How many of the "greats" were business men? If you're looking for a look for business, I wouldn't look to the Duke or Astaire.


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

Trenditional said:


> I wear Pink, Peach, Purple, Lavender etc shirts with it and fairly vibrate ties.


Man, you got it right ! Now try to spice it up with colorful socks !


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Trenditional said:


> To liven it up, I wear Pink, Peach, Purple, Lavender etc shirts with it and fairly vibrate ties.


Are the vibrating ties battery powered? Any blinking fairy lights to go with that? :icon_smile:


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Tutee said:


> ...So to make Very Long story--super short. Black striped suits have some observance in the classical era. However, it was always presented as "fashionable" city suiting or as a new option But never as "correct" which is a HUGE difference for some. This distinction is true of both American and British esteemed publications of the time.
> 
> Likewise, you would almost never spot the "greats" of the era in black suits solid or otherwise may they be Duke, Astaire, Grant, Cooper, Gable, etc.


Tutee, thank you. That's just the sort of expert answer I was hoping for.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Kai said:


> Wear black suits.
> Wear them in the daytime.
> Wear them at night.
> Wear them to work.
> ...


That's a good idea


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## Tutee (Jun 7, 2004)

odoreater said:


> How many of the "greats" were business men? If you're looking for a look for business, I wouldn't look to the Duke or Astaire.


Exactly! These were actually the kind of people most likely to indulge in black suits because they were Not businessmen. The fact that these men also eschewed black suitings in general... when they could easily get away with it... says something.

The regular well-dressed business man (in London or NY) in that era couldn't even possibly think of wearing black suits.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Tutee said:


> Exactly! These were actually the kind of people most likely to indulge in black suits because they were Not businessmen. The fact that these men also eschewed black suitings in general... when they could easily get away with it... says something.
> 
> The regular well-dressed business man (in London or NY) in that era couldn't even possibly think of wearing black suits.


Funny thing is, we don't live in that era anymore. I look around my office, and I see a lot of guys wearing black suits and looking good to boot.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

lakewolf said:


> I come to imagine that in the future people would be dressed in fitted track suits, like the ones the clones wear in the movie "The Island"...
> 
> then there would be a debate about black vs navy or grey track suits


black track suits are used only for funerals!.... in the year 2000.......


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## oldseed (Aug 7, 2006)

hi guys,
well i'm new to this forum and have been reading it for a bit over a year now. i must say the views of this forum are, sometimes, at vast odds with the public and the masses. sure, what we see ont he street is not indicative of what is "fashionable", but it certainly is what is indicative of what is the norm and what is acceptable.

the recent threads on black suits for example. fact of the matter is in the financial district of just about every north american city i've been to, black suits are everywhere. meetings, during the day, during the night, yes, even interviews. to say that the black suit is somehow "inappropriate" is simply insane. the norm is defined by what's out there commonly, and black suit is common.

in fact the black suit is so ubiquitous that i wouldn't mind hearing from actual retailers about black suit sales, cuz i bet it's a hot seller.

on a side note, i think black suits look damn good. as do black pants. guys, just cuz it's outside of the norm doesn't mean it looks good or that you're fashionable.

seed


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> i must say the views of this forum are, sometimes, at vast odds with the public and the masses.


The same could be said of the difference between the grammar used by Oxbridge faculties and that used by 'the masses'. Popularity and propriety rarely overlap very much.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Look at pretty much _every single_ wedding or graduation photo from around 1975-1978. Powder blue or peach tuxes with ruffle shirts and HUGE bow ties were almost the only thing you could see. Oh, _everyone_ was wearing them. Now, they look stupid, and nobody -- *but nobody* -- thinks so more than the "trendy" young guys in the pictures.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Even BB has a black suit in the new Regent style. Realy nice detailing, lapel stitching etc. Too bad they didnt do it in a nice navy.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

oldseed said:


> hi guys,
> i wouldn't mind hearing from actual retailers about black suit sales, cuz i bet it's a hot seller.
> 
> seed


Kenneth Cole probably sells more shoes than EG, Lobb, Lattanzi, etc combined.... Square toed shoes may be "hot sellers" but it doesn't change the fact that they're hideous.

In the same vein, a Men's Warehouse suit with cleverly matching polyester tie and pocket square (from the same material of course) would be considered "sharp" by 99% of Americans.... anyone with taste knows the difference

I like this forum because the members don't represent the norm. With that kind of herd mentality we'd all be dressing like Joe Banker in his ill fitting navy suit complete with clunky shoes and red tie.

MrR


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

oldseed said:


> guys, just cuz it's outside of the norm doesn't mean it looks good or that you're fashionable.
> 
> seed


I almost forgot....welcome to the forum 

MrR


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## random102 (Jul 12, 2005)

No one cares outside clothing nerds (see for further reading on what a clothing nerd is), and clothing nerds don't usually have any sense of style so don't worry about what they say. 

It's not 1806 and black is no longer just for servants, the world changes and moves on, and the appropriate of black has changed along with it.


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

black is for waiter.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Lots of guys who can and should do better show up at weddings and funerals in khakis and shirt with no tie. That doesn't mean I'll consider it appropriate. I don't buy the argument that what is common is the ultimate barometer of both taste and style.

That said, it's all opinion. You won't change mine, I probably won't change yours. C'est la vie.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

*plain = bad*

I think that when people on this forum say that black suits are 'inappropriate' they are speaking from the Savile Row 'rule book' rather than commentating on current trends.
The fact that everyone in your town seems to be wearing them doesn't make it appropriate in the eyes of the purists.
In the City of London, people who buy bespoke suits will tend to be steered away from plain black by their tailors, partially because it can make you look like a bouncer / security guard.
I personally think it can look cheap aswell, a bit like a white car.

There are some exceptions, for example I've seen beautiful black pin stripe suits and herringbone suits which look anything but cheap if the right quality of fabric is used.
Sometimes looking good is about the way you wear it and not what you wear.


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## Spooter (Jul 15, 2006)

> I like this forum because the members don't represent the norm. With that kind of herd mentality


I agree! But I think sometimes we might be prone to another albeit smaller herd mentality

:icon_smile_big: :devil:


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

> I personally think it can look cheap aswell, a bit like a white car.


uh-oh...White cars look cheap?


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

all these threads about black suits makes me think there might be a conspiracy somewhere to push black suit acceptance coming from gq, perhaps?


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

no they are just boring now! wear what you want! keep igniting this flair is just pointless and unneeded! yes no, no-yes yorn!!


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

I own, wear and love my black BLCM suit, but I do so knowing it is inappropriate. Seriously. And yet I sleep at night.


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## Duane Gran (Jan 14, 2005)

I believe you will find the sartorial tastes of this forum to be a time capsule representing a better age left behind us. Contemporary style, as it were, should be scrutinized through the lens of the better judgment our grandfathers shared.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

oldseed said:


> in fact the black suit is so ubiquitous that i wouldn't mind hearing from actual retailers about black suit sales, cuz i bet it's a hot seller.


You are completely correct, oldseed. Some might even argue that "cuz" or the absolute refusal to capitalize words would be inappropriate, but in this Internet age none of the kewl kidz who wear black suits bother with such antiquated ideas.

Fight the power, baby.


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## styledoc (Mar 12, 2006)

I defy most any anti-black suit forum member to assemble an ensemble that looks better than - or rather, has superior style to - my solid black Brioni 3 button suit with appropriate accents, any time day or night.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Nor do they care or understand that:

You should never remove your jacket before the host does (if at all).
Which fork to use when,
Not to interrupt others while speaking,
not to speak with your mouth full
and on and on goes the very long list of things that are common place but unacceptable.

I believe every man should own one good black suit.
There is a time and a place for them,
the key is knowing when, where and how.

The idea that you will look like the parking lot attendant or the waiter holds no water. 

If dressed properly, you can stand amongst them and never be mistaken as one of them.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Two things that I don't like to admit and live in fear of people discovering...

A. First suit was black
B. I was born in New Jersey

Both situations have been corrected.

I don't point and giggle when I see a black suit but I probably would not buy one. Give it a gold or blue overpane and I might. I have to admit though that it is not propriety but a better understanding of what colors are most compatible with my complexion so there is a bias toward the blues, olives, browns.

The hot suit color this year is chocolate brown which delights me. I like brown, most people should because it looks great on most complexions. Aside from my flagrant disregard for the rules regarding suede shoes the brown in town rule makes me delight in being a sartorial scofflaw.


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> The hot suit color this year is chocolate brown which delights me. I like brown, most people should because it looks great on most complexions. Aside from my flagrant disregard for the rules regarding suede shoes the brown in town rule makes me delight in being a sartorial *scofflaw*.


Word of the day.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> Two things that I don't like to admit and live in fear of people discovering...
> 
> A. First suit was black


Mine too. When it came time for me to pick my first suit on my own, Mom's instructions were "Get what you like, but whatever you do, don't get black or double-breasted."

What did I buy? A black double-breasted. Thought it looked great. In retrospect, how wrong I was. Thankfully, few if any photos survive. As such, I maintain plausible denial.



Chuck Franke said:


> The hot suit color this year is chocolate brown which delights me. I like brown, most people should because it looks great on most complexions. Aside from my flagrant disregard for the rules regarding suede shoes the brown in town rule makes me delight in being a sartorial scofflaw.


I love brown suits, though I know they're frowned upon by some. I've seen many terrible brown suits, but good ones can be striking. One of my favorite suits is a charcoal brown pinstripe Corneliani. I have several others too, and wear them unashamedly, even in the city.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

DocHolliday said:


> I love brown suits, though I know they're frowned upon by some..


Frown back and give'm the ole Sgt. Hulka "Lighten up, Frances". There is an inherent danger in taking yourself too seriously. I tried it once, didn't really work for me.

I also love the idea that 'Brown is for Farmer' is somehow an insult. Are you kidding me? A decade from now if I am not spending most of my time tending my vineyard next to at least a one acre vegetable garden then I will have failed. I intend to be out standing in my field...


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## thinman (Jan 21, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> I don't point and giggle when I see a black suit but I probably would not buy one. Give it a gold or blue overpane and I might. I have to admit though that it is not propriety but a better understanding of what colors are most compatible with my complexion so there is a bias toward the blues, olives, browns.


Exactly my take on black suits. I have so many better options for my complexion, that I don't foresee ever buying a black suit. I *will*, however, wear black trousers (and I've never been mistaken for the parking attendant); I just don't want black near my face.


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

wow, so many threads about black suits...

smells like a little revolution in this agora...

I love my black suits..

as much as I love my blues, grays and beiges...

but the black suits are special.

they are the most elegant and refined for me.

I use them as the modern days tuxedos.

As i told on another thread, nobody wears tuxes anymore these days for standard evening wear, now they are reserved for formal galas, that there are not often...

So my black suits are my tuxes..


Two slim fitting ( and cheap ones, one Italian 2btn, one H&M 3btn ) for clubbing, discos, dancing... so they can be damaged by a cigarette or spill a beer or tequila on it and it wouldn't be great deal.
One canvased SB 3btn for chic partys, reserved for weddings or other special occasions.
One in linen for summer, I have not yet worn it though
One shawl lapel tuxedo waiting there for some gala
I do have a black tailcoat for an even improbable white tie event, or maybe if some day I take waltz and quickstep lessons and do some balls... ( now I stick to salsa and tango for which the slim black suit is enough)
Off course I am not a regular suit wearer... I do love suits and have 22 of them.. several navys (8 in wool, cotton, linen, SB, DB, 2btn, 3btn, striped), several grays (6 charcoal, gray, light gray, striped), one brown, one white linen, one cotton khaki, one cotton cream... So I can have the luxury of having 6 blacks, don't you think ?


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

thinman said:


> Exactly my take on black suits. I have so many better options for my complexion, that I don't foresee ever buying a black suit. I *will*, however, wear black trousers (and I've never been mistaken for the parking attendant); I just don't want black near my face.


I see so many guys who could learn a lesson from this. Too often, guys tend to buy into the black suit itself, its power and severity, rather than consider whether it actually looks good on them, with their skin tone and coloring.

I've seen some black suits I thought looked nice, but they're extremely rare, and I can't recall the last one I saw in the daytime. Usually, in the day, my reaction is, "That guy doesn't look as cool as he thinks he does."


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## mussel (Oct 19, 2004)

Chuck Franke said:


> Two things that I don't like to admit and live in fear of people discovering...
> 
> A. First suit was black
> B. I was born in New Jersey
> ...


I don't know why being born in New Jersey a situation the needs to be corrected. And how it could ever be "corrected", crawl back to your mother's womb and move her across state line and born again in New York? Why needs to be ashamed of being born in NJ?

NJ has the second highest per capita income in the nation. I don't understand where all the stereotyping and Jersey bashing are coming.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

mussel said:


> NJ has the second highest per capita income in the nation. I don't understand where all the stereotyping and Jersey bashing are coming.


Huh...I thought that was Connecticut.


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## mussel (Oct 19, 2004)

CT is the highest. NJ second.


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## Tom72 (May 8, 2006)

Nobody but nobody out here in the sticks wears a black suit. Even the funeral home gang is not that grim. My black tie always gets a double take but I wear it anyway. So I would consider a black suit, but only for that one purpose.

I dread the day when I am old enough that I am attending enough funeral functions to justify the purchase price of a black suit. I can't count how many suits I have because there are a bunch in winter storage, but I rarely wear a suit more than twice a month, maybe a tad more often for the seersucker/pinfeather/poplin suits in the summer. So when I find I am averaging 24 funerals a year, I might consider it.

But don't bury me in a black suit!!! Did you hear that, Sonny???? Plant me in seersucker with a madras tie (unless it after Labor Day, of course).

Yours,


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> the norm is defined by what's out there commonly, and black suit is common.


A more damning indictment of the black suit could not have been written.


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## nicksull (Sep 1, 2005)

The black suit is less offensive - if we think about it - than the fact that the majority of black suit wearers look like theyre wearing someone else's suit or have just been on a crash diet. A well cut, well made black suit that fits is at least one step better.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

nicksull said:


> The black suit is less offensive - if we think about it - than the fact that the majority of black suit wearers look like theyre wearing someone else's suit or have just been on a crash diet. A well cut, well made black suit that fits is at least one step better.


Yes, and preferably not with black shirt and satin tie.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Mussel - it's the inability of Jersey-ites to take a joke mostly  
What possible explanation can there be for anyone taking me seriously? I just can't fathom that. Maybe if I wore a black suit with a severe tie I could see it but I specifically avoid the seriousness of black in favor of frivolity.

Sigh. Sometimes you have to work hard to be taken sufficiently un-seriously.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Chuck Franke said:


> Mussel - it's the inability of Jersey-ites to take a joke mostly


We can joke among ourselves. When people from other states mock us, we have someone from the mob whack them and then we bury them under Giants Stadium.

The knee-slapper is: _You from Joisey? Haha, whud exit???!!!_ Oddly, I find myself now telling people I live right off a certain Garden State Parkway exit rather than identify a town so small that even I hadn't heard of it until we looked at the home we bought. "Where is _that?_" we asked the real estate agent. "Oh, it's right off Exit whatever," said the real estate agent, who grew up in Bayonne and actually has that stereotyped accent that so few of us do.

But if you ask me what exit, a man named Vinny will pay you a visit.

Besides, it's Jerseyans.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Vinny will be wearing a black suit and square-toed shoes.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Chuck Franke said:


> Two things that I don't like to admit and live in fear of people discovering...
> 
> A. First suit was black
> B. I was born in New Jersey
> ...


:icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: Chuck, I was born in Kansas (don't tell anyone) now live in California (I'm a native now since I've been here more than 6 months) and still can't correct my Kansas thing!!

And I have two (fairly recent) black sports jackets! Both were such great bargains and good style/fabric that I could not resist. I wear them watching TV at night, but maybe I could wear them out to an appropriate event soon!! ??

Here from *The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes* is the History of Black in Suits:

_Men's suits, designed for the dressiest business and social occasions have traditionally been dark in color. The acceptable colors for suits are navy, gray, tan (summer), olive and in some cases brown. _

_Navy and gray have evolved since they look good with the hair, eye, and skin tones of most men, and dark clothing is slimming. _

*Black:*

_For men, black is considered too somber for business, and more appropriate for evening social events, and funerals. They were not deemed appropriate for business because they were "too" powerful. Although it's gaining more acceptance since women in business are wearing black. _

_Female executives started wearing black because it is such a powerful color. Men should still use caution about wearing black, depending upon your business and the occasion. I would not wear a black suit for a job interview, and it's not acceptable for weddings._

_Somber colors were not always common in men's clothing, they begin their entry into men's wear after the French Revolution in 1789 as the bright colors of the 18th century Nobility were quickly replaced with the somber colors of the common man! _

_*Beau "Buck" Brummell* advocated dark clothes for evening in the 1790's, and in 1828 *Edward Bulwer-Lyton* (19th century writer) laid down the challenge "people must be very distinguished to look well in back" and England's dandies took to black. _

_There were other factors. Black was the color of choice in England during the end of the reign of *Queen Victoria *(1819 - 1901). Her husband, Prince Albert was born the same year as the queen, but died of typhoid fever on December 14, 1861 at Windsor Castle. After the death of her husband Queen Victoria and most of England wore black clothes for the rest of her life (40 years!)._

_Also the Protestant movement favored more somber colors. The English dark clothing look was adopted in Europe after the English defeat of Napoleon, June 18, 1815. To the victors went the flattery of imitation. _
_Black had become practical and in vogue by the height of the Industrial Revolution (during the 1850's) as the soot, smoke and grime from the new industrial age filled the air. And dry cleaning hadn't been invented yet! _

_Brooks Brothers stopped making black suits in 1865 because U.S. President, *Abraham Lincoln* (Born Feb. 12, 1809; President 1861-1865) was wearing a black Brooks Brothers coat when he was assassinated! The Brook's black suit was again available in 1998._

_There may also be a subliminal attraction to black of sexual appeal, power, even mystery and death that kept the male in dark clothes. _

_During the 1940's and 50's black became acceptable for funerals and social events, especially in the evening, but not for daytime business! This might have been a reaction to all those years wearing black!_

Oh and oldweed, welcome to the Forums! (Although we know you're going to be a "rabble-rouser"!!) :icon_smile_big:


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## gordgekko (Nov 12, 2004)

I wish we could declare a moratorium on threads involving black suits.


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## thinman (Jan 21, 2005)

DocHolliday said:


> > Originally Posted by thinman
> > Exactly my take on black suits. I have so many better options for my complexion, that I don't foresee ever buying a black suit. I *will*, however, wear black trousers (and I've never been mistaken for the parking attendant); I just don't want black near my face.
> 
> 
> ...


Charcoal is the new black!!!
Seriously, when I want a dark evening suit to give that powerful look that others get from black, I wear a charcoal or navy suit (usually with a textured weave).


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## GettingCleanedUp (Sep 12, 2006)

Teacher said:


> Look at pretty much _every single_ wedding or graduation photo from around 1975-1978. Powder blue or peach tuxes with ruffle shirts and HUGE bow ties were almost the only thing you could see. Oh, _everyone_ was wearing them. Now, they look stupid, and nobody -- *but nobody* -- thinks so more than the "trendy" young guys in the pictures.


"Fashion" even at the time doesn't really work. There is a reason that some
looks are timeless. The 70's time period is when I was subjected to that
odd American ritual of the high school prom. I didn't plan ahead and asked
a girl late who accepted. By the time I went to get a tux, all of the powder
blue monstrosities were taken; so they set me up with a classic black tux.
I was the only one there and I didn't realize it, but it made quite a statement
with the young women there. I later found out that I caught the eye of a number of women who never would have given me a second look. I've learned that there is a lot to be said for looking at what works over time and then doing that well. (my problem is I don't know what that is but
I'm in the process of learning)


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

CRS - Granpa lived in the same house in Jersey City for ...I think it was 95 years and was the first kid to swim across the pond in Lincoln Park, first kid arrested on the other side. He only left because he wanted to be somewhere warmer when he got 'old'. Dad got his PhD at Rutgers, dept chair at Seton Hall for 20 years or so. I went through the 9th grade in the Caldwells so I can make fun of Joisey.

I know Vinnie, dated his sister.

Yankee by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

Phinn said:


> A more damning indictment of the black suit could not have been written.


What are u trying to say?


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> What are u trying to say?


That "common" and sartorial style are mutually exclusive.

What did u think?


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## oldseed (Aug 7, 2006)

AlanC said:


> You are completely correct, oldseed. Some might even argue that "cuz" or the absolute refusal to capitalize words would be inappropriate, but in this Internet age none of the kewl kidz who wear black suits bother with such antiquated ideas.
> 
> Fight the power, baby.


lol. tooshay. i'm surprised by all the responses..interesting ones too. i guess i just look at some of the pictures of the members (here we go) and i often think to myself that it looks more iconoclastic than iconic... we see pictures of so-and-so and so-and-so on the trad forum of the icons..but i don't see that same dress exhibited in the pics. lotsa clash, lotsa attention-grabbing things. but a straight, slick, black/charcoal suit with normal black shoes? haven't seen it.

here's the thing about the cary grants/etc. you notice the man, not the suit... isn't that what great fashion is about?

seed


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

styledoc said:


> I defy most any anti-black suit forum member to assemble an ensemble that looks better than - or rather, has superior style to - my solid black Brioni 3 button suit with appropriate accents, any time day or night.


I would suggest most of us could do that without even turning on the lights.


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## ston (Oct 28, 2003)

There was a job fair at my university today, and there were about 100 students wearing suits. Every single one that I saw was black. No navy, no charcoal, and no pinstripes.

I noticed several students wearing there 3-buttons with all three buttons 'buttoned', with their fancy burberry plaid ties, etc. There were also some who wore 3-buttons with only the top button buttoned.

I saw many never-been-polished squared-toed shoes accompanying these suits. 

Today really opened my eyes to what goes on in reality, outside these forums.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

ston said:


> There was a job fair at my university today, and there were about 100 students wearing suits. Every single one that I saw was black. No navy, no charcoal, and no pinstripes.
> 
> I noticed several students wearing there 3-buttons with all three buttons 'buttoned', with their fancy burberry plaid ties, etc. There were also some who wore 3-buttons with only the top button buttoned.
> 
> ...


And all fodder for the anti-black suit brigade. 

Betcha every one of those guys thought they looked great.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

ston said:


> Today really opened my eyes to what goes on in reality, outside these forums.


hard to admit, but yes, there is life outside aaac, and black suits.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

acidicboy said:


> hard to admit, but yes, there is life outside aaac, and black suits.


Yes, but is it one you want to live?


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## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

There are times when a black suit just works so well but variety it ain't.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I am beginning to suspect that there are some fora members that don't like black suits.

Perry :idea:


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

mussel said:


> CT is the highest. NJ second.


Er...sorry, I misread. We were both right.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

crs said:


> We can joke among ourselves. When people from other states mock us, we have someone from the mob whack them and then we bury them under Giants Stadium.
> 
> The knee-slapper is: _You from Joisey? Haha, whud exit???!!!_ Oddly, I find myself now telling people I live right off a certain Garden State Parkway exit rather than identify a town so small that even I hadn't heard of it until we looked at the home we bought. "Where is _that?_" we asked the real estate agent. "Oh, it's right off Exit whatever," said the real estate agent, who grew up in Bayonne and actually has that stereotyped accent that so few of us do.
> 
> ...


Look, I have absolutely _no_ sympathy. Just try being from North Dakota for once, particularly after that $#&! movie _Fargo_ came out.

(I've been asked if we have VCR's, cable TV, indoor plumbing, covered wagons, if we ride horses to school, where the Indians are...ah, the list of ignorance goes on!)


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

rip said:


> styledoc said:
> 
> 
> > I defy most any anti-black suit forum member to assemble an ensemble that looks better than - or rather, has superior style to - my solid black Brioni 3 button suit with appropriate accents, any time day or night.
> ...


Oooohhh...burrrrrrn!

(....And probably true.)


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

gordgekko said:


> I wish we could declare a moratorium on threads involving black suits.


Amen, brother. The number of pixels that have been spilled on this piddly topic is obscene.


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## lakewolf (Aug 6, 2006)

thinman said:


> Charcoal is the new black!!!
> Seriously, when I want a dark evening suit to give that powerful look that others get from black, I wear a charcoal or navy suit (usually with a textured weave).


When I wear a blue or charcoal suit on an evening, it feels like I didn't change my business clothes that day....


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> There was a job fair at my university today, and there were about 100 students wearing suits. Every single one that I saw was black. ...
> 
> I saw many never-been-polished squared-toed shoes accompanying these suits.
> 
> Today really opened my eyes to what goes on in reality, outside these forums.


It's a sad state of affairs, isn't it?


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## Newton (Oct 6, 2006)

Black suits have almost become de rigueur for the one suit wardrobe types it seems.


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> I don't point and giggle when I see a black suit but I probably would not buy one. Give it a gold or blue overpane and I might. I have to admit though that it is not propriety but a better understanding of what colors are most compatible with my complexion so there is a bias toward the blues, olives, browns.
> 
> The hot suit color this year is chocolate brown which delights me. I like brown, most people should because it looks great on most complexions. Aside from my flagrant disregard for the rules regarding suede shoes the brown in town rule makes me delight in being a sartorial scofflaw.


What he said. Brown has been my favorite suit color for the past five years. I now have about 10 of them. Conversely, I have no black and no plan to acquire any black. The original post essentially proposes surrendering to herd, flock or trend mentality. That course is only for those who lack their own vision or voice.

There's a.reason we revere eagles and lions over gulls and sheep -- they fly solo, they don't flock. People with vision, voice and self-confidence simply do not yield to what every else is doing, thinking or saying. Neither do the members who represent what is unique about this forum.


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## tmbjared (Jun 20, 2006)

*Reality weighs in*

Good morning,

I know this topic has been beaten to death, so I shall aspire to brevity. In lieu of simply my opionon on the matter - which would be of interest only to me (and perhaps to my mother :icon_smile - I thought I'd relate a short anecdote.

My fiancee works at a prominent capital management organization in Manhattan. One of the directors recently interviewed a gentleman for a position - he was not hired. Of course it was (presumably) not his clothing that kept him from being offered a position, but she heard the director mention in some way or another no less than 3 times that the candidate was wearing a black suit.

Speculate however you like as to the varying interpretations of such a situation, but, for myself, my reality will not include the sporting of a black suit in a business environment.

tmbjared


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## thinman (Jan 21, 2005)

lakewolf said:


> When I wear a blue or charcoal suit on an evening, it feels like I didn't change my business clothes that day....


The devil is in the details. My go-to evening suit is navy, with a shiny finish and herringbone weave. Shoes and accessories also make a huge difference (e.g. my pink ties are only power ties in the evening).

Teacher, I'll see your "frontier" state and raise you one: Oklahoma. Need I say more?


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## Thurston (Aug 17, 2006)

Uh-oh.


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> Two things that I don't like to admit and live in fear of people discovering...
> 
> A. First suit was black
> B. I was born in New Jersey
> ...


Dude, you may have moved to Texas, but you can't change where you were born.



> The hot suit color this year is chocolate brown which delights me. I like brown, most people should because it looks great on most complexions. Aside from my flagrant disregard for the rules regarding suede shoes the brown in town rule makes me delight in being a sartorial scofflaw.


It is not the color of the suit (well, excepting some corner cases) that is the problem, it is the suitability (pun intended) to task.

Black suits are fine for a night at the clubs, concerts (except opening nights), or non-formal dinners. Especially if one is younger AND in good to moderate shape.

If one is particularly rotund, or middle ageded and showing it, then black is probably to be avoided (yes, I know black is slimming. This only works to a degree, after a certain point you look like a black hole).

It is certainly NOT the right color for business, unless one is on the 'creative' side of things, and then you're expected to be somewhat wierd anyway.

And you can assert as loudly and as often as you like that things have changed, that times have moved on.

You're wrong. More people are wearing worse clothing in public, and the |-|ip and |<001 kids are doing what they've always done, but in the corridors of power it's still navy and grey, white and blue.

It's your life, you decide where you want to go. No one is going to have you drug out and shot for the color of your suit. Heck, they may not even notice. But you'll never know for sure. And in two decades the top tiers of all the major corporations will be wearing Navy and Charcoal in some variation.


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> Mussel - it's the inability of Jersey-ites to take a joke mostly
> What possible explanation can there be for anyone taking me seriously?


Given that you'd moved from Jersey to TEXAS, I presumed that you were joking.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

Big problem with the black suit today is the material makes the suit look cheap. The thinner cloths are just too trash baggy. If you look at the clothes that were black from the 20's and the 60's you see the heavier material in coarser weaves in many cases. 

Black suits are fine just don't go too thin on the material.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

mussel said:


> NJ has the second highest per capita income in the nation.


Not to mention the highest median household income in the country.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

> It is certainly NOT the right color for business, unless one is on the 'creative' side of things, and then you're expected to be somewhat wierd anyway.


Damn, when I hear "Chuck exceeds expectations" I always thought they were being nice.

Drat!


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

"And in two decades the top tiers of all the major corporations will be wearing Navy and Charcoal in some variation."

Navy and charcoal, yes. But they'll be track suits.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

pkincy said:


> I am beginning to suspect that there are some fora members that don't like black suits.
> 
> Perry :idea:


rubbish! what ever gave you that silly idea?


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

*sung to the tune of the old Oscar Mayer ad*

Oh my black suit has a first name
It's N-E-V-E-R
My black suit has a second name 
It's W-O-R-N
Trot it out when someone's bought the farm
It's very black - it does no harm
Well-loved by those with wealth and fame
But to this poor slob it seems quite lame


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

pkincy said:


> I am beginning to suspect that there are some fora members that don't like black suits.


You may be on to something here,
wait, could it be?.....
One of those secret desires, secret needs,
that needs to be suppressed? ;--)


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Mattdeckard said:


> Big problem with the black suit today is the material makes the suit look cheap. The thinner cloths are just too trash baggy. If you look at the clothes that were black from the 20's and the 60's you see the heavier material in coarser weaves in many cases.
> 
> Black suits are fine just don't go too thin on the material.


There is a reason why the black suits you see look cheap. It's because anyone who buys a quality suit knows better than to get a black one.


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

When Pope John Paul II died, I witnessed a conversion of non-Catholics discussing who they would want to be the next Pope. The consensus was that they wanted someone who would change the Church's stance on issues like clerical marriage, abortion and homosexuality. I was fascinated by the fact that even though these people weren't members of the Church, they want its approval for their beliefs.

I see the argument over black suits as being very similar. Yes, people are wearing them, even in very conservative dress environments like law firms and Wall Street, but those who do cant seem to stand that some people believe that it is a breaking a rule. 

Most people on this forum, and most sane people in the general public, would have to admit that the current period marks one of the low points in the dress of the average male in the last 100 years. The bottom line is that all the rules have broken down, and for the most part people look ghastly. Some of us don't approve of the norms of modern dress. That's fine. Some people want to wear black suits. That's fine too (for them). But why do the black suit wearers so desperately seek approval? 

There's really no point arguing it. Wear them or don't wear them. But stop seeking the approval of others for your decisions.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

*Back to white cars*



Bonhamesque said:


> I personally think it can look cheap aswell, a bit like a white car.


Seems to me there is something to be learned from Bonhamseque's comment. He obviouly is not referring to the US by his remark. White is and has been for years one of the most popular colors for American cars. However, if our British friend chooses to think white is a cheap color for cars, all he is doing is showing his regional perception of what is appropriate for a car.

AAAC members generally shy away from black suits. But when I look at racks of suits even high end suits, Brioni and Zenga come to mind, most of what I see is black. In my view there is nothing improper with liking or disliking black suits if they are well made and properly tailored. All we are seeing is a difference in taste which is no better or worse than not liking white cars.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Patrick06790 said:


> Trot it out when someone's bought the farm
> It's very black - it does no harm


Made me giggle


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> Damn, when I hear "Chuck exceeds expectations" I always thought they were being nice.


Were you "on the creative side" back then?


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

gng8 said:


> Seems to me there is something to be learned from Bonhamseque's comment. He obviouly is not referring to the US by his remark. White is and has been for years one of the most popular colors for American cars. However, if our British friend chooses to think white is a cheap color for cars, all he is doing is showing his regional perception of what is appropriate for a car.


Actually white cars often look cheap after the first blush of new has worn off.

And there are damn few people more American than I am.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

gng8 said:


> But when I look at racks of suits even high end suits, Brioni and Zenga come to mind, most of what I see is black. In my view there is nothing improper with liking or disliking black suits if they are well made and properly tailored. All we are seeing is a difference in taste which is no better or worse than not liking white cars.


I actually don't see many black suits at high end stores. Lots of greys usually. And my parents own a white Range Rover that actually looks quite nice. When I see white Jaguars I immediately feel like I'm in Florida among the rich aged.


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## JMatt (Feb 16, 2006)

Brian13 said:


> black is for waiter.


Best post in the whole thread. I can't let this inside joke go unacknowledged.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

When people roll the word REALITY out I am reminded of a carriage and tack auction at the Orange County Fairgrounds years ago. There in the center was a taxidermal nightmare of a bull and cow buffalo in coitus. It may have reflected reallity, and probably also the twisted humour of some late 19th century railroad magnate. But nobody bid on the thing.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

petro said:


> Were you "on the creative side" back then?


Nope, just weird. The challenge now is to reach a point financially where I am reclassified as 'eccentric'. That's what we're shooting for.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Maybe people don't wear black suits as much as they used to.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Welcome Old Seed


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

As far as Wikipedia is concerned:

_The classic business-suit colors are navy blue, grey, and charcoal. A more modern color palette can include browns and darker shades of green although these colors are still not widely accepted in the more traditional professions. Black is traditionally a color reserved for one's dinner jacket (tuxedo), but may be worn in religious contexts such as a funeral or to church._


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Howard said:


> Maybe people don't wear black suits as much as they used to.


For whatever reason I decided to wear one of my 3 black suits today. I ended up choosing an Oxxford in 150's since I was meeting an out of town fora member at NM to look at Oxxford suits.

While we were at NM I commented on the number of black suits available in Oxxford and Brioni. Our NM contact was their Oxxford coordinator and opined that nationally Oxxford sold black suits in a 2 to 1 ratio to blue in 2005.

A very interesting number and observation that I will confirm with Mike Cohen at the trunk show this coming Thursday or Friday.

Perry


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

*Question for people who dislike black suits*

Despite 99% of the world thinking black suits are perfectly acceptable business attire, I've started to fall in line with a group of strangers on the internet who tell me otherwise. 

That said, I went to visit Maxwell tailors, a Hong Kong tailor visiting Edmonton on Saturday and ordered a black suit with thin gray pinstripes. Is this also a sartorial sin?


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

omairp said:


> I went to visit Maxwell tailors, a Hong Kong tailor visiting Edmonton on Saturday and ordered a black suit with thin gray pinstripes. Is this also a sartorial sin?


A suit with grey stripes is not a black suit. Your thread doesn't qualify as a Certified Black Suit Thread.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Bogdanoff said:


> A suit with grey stripes is not a black suit. Your thread doesn't qualify as a Certified Black Suit Thread.


Should I feel relieved or shamed? :icon_smile:


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## SpookyTurtle (Nov 4, 2007)

omairp said:


> Should I feel relieved or shamed? :icon_smile:


Neither. :icon_smile_big:


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Wear what you want. I don't like black suits, thought striped ones are certainly better for me than plain ones.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Here we go again!


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