# Savile Row Suit Review – No. 2 (With Pics!)



## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Dear Friends

I am pleased to finally have the chance to attach photos and my thoughts on my second Savile Row suit. I post this purely to be of service to anyone who is in the position which I was in exactly one year ago. I hope it encourages you to make an investment which you will never regret.

First, here are the photos:

I should also add that the sleeves have been extended a quarter of an inch, since.

The suit is a Wensum made-to-measure made of Holland & Sherry target wool with Lear Brown Dunsford lining. Please email me if you are interested in the swatch details.

Nine months on from my first Savile Row suit, I had tried six suits from other avenues before returning. I was very happy with my first Savile Row suit. But I wanted to make sure, before becoming a life-long subscriber to the Row, that I was completely comfortable in my justification for doing so. I didn't want to live at the apex of personal tailoring for any pretence of grandeur. I would only want to subscribe to the Row if it provided the best value for money.

I decided to return to the same Savile Row tailor. I wanted to test the theory that developing a relationship with one tailor would be of increased value in all subsequent suits. I hoped that continuing with the same tailor would allow him to assess his first suit and make improvements with the second. I am delighted to report that this is exactly what happened.

I was surprised at home critical the tailor was of his first suit. I had arrived with a list of points which I wanted to address. He stood me in the mirror room at Holland & Sherry's offices and went through every dimension with a fine toothcomb. He addressed each of my six points and two more which I had not thought of and couldn't have then understood.

I was also delighted to be informed that the tailor had since updated his pattern. The meant a slightly slimmer upper arm, slimmer middle-leg and slightly longer torso. I think this a very good and reassuring sign.

The quite unexpected bonus, was that after the improvements for my second suit had been agreed, the tailor offered to take my first suit away and have it altered to reflect all of the agreed improvements. I was delighted!

Further to this thread, I am very pleased with my choice of suiting and lining. I think I definitely made the right choice.

If anyone has any questions about the suit, a beginner's experience of Savile Row, or of personal tailoring in general, then please drop me a line any time. I would be pleased to hear from you.

Thank you.


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## manuduenas (Sep 16, 2007)

Hi, 
I think it looks great on you, I especially like the waist suppression. 
Although I'd prefer the sleeves a bit longer and the jacket a bit shorter (maybe it evens out )) 

manuduenas


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

If Wensum do MTM for Jasper Littman then I'm not surprised you're happy and they incorporated a fair bit of variation on their standard design. They seem more flexible than many MTM makers.

Bespoke obviously takes it to another level in terms of individuation, but MTM from a good tailor is SO much better than MTM from someone who doesn't truly understand what they're doing. Not only are the initial measurements more accurate/appropriate and the discussion about style details more fruitful, but the alterations after initially receiving the garment often improve it very significantly.

Your suit looks very individual indeed and obviously fits well - a very dramatic hourglass silhouette with a longer, flared skirt. Not for everyone, but I like that style. Well maybe not _quite_ so dramatic for myself as my figure wouldn't tolerate it!


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

He's cut it to suit you, and I think it looks great. I can see why a touch more sleeve length and a bit of thinning out of the sleeve is desirable. But the overall fit seems excellent to me and I bet you feel wonderful when you wear it. 

I've just gone back to Connock & Lockie and will report back similarly if people are interested.


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

Very nice. Congrats on the purchase.

I couldn't tell from the pictures; are the armholes quite high? I would enjoy getting a bespoke suit or a MTM suit simply to have higher armholes.


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## Winot (Oct 12, 2006)

Simon Myerson said:


> I've just gone back to Connock & Lockie and will report back similarly if people are interested.


Simon - I for one would be interested, particularly on turnaround times since the sad death of Timothy Craig.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

*Which Holland and Sherry book is that fabric from, Mr. Pipps?*

FWIW, my favorite fabrics on the planet by far are now the 72 10 ounce/310 gram 100% super 120s worsted wool fabrics (fabric numbers 744000 through 744071) in Book HS525 from Holland and Sherry (The Holland and Sherry Target Collection).


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

That's a great suit (& lining) Mr. Pipps. Hope you enjoy it.

Glad to see no turn-ups (cuffs) - as they would destroy the elegance of this beautiful suit.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Why would that be the case?


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Winot said:


> Simon - I for one would be interested, particularly on turnaround times since the sad death of Timothy Craig.


Connock & Lockie quoted me 3 months for a first suit in early December. The starting price is £1100, incl VAT IIRC, for a 2 piece suit.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

I went in on Dec 18th and was told that I could have a first fitting at the beginning of Feb, which was the date I specified. Can't help more than that. Price for single breasted Heild cloth, 2 pairs trousers and some very fancy lining (plus various religious requirements) was about £1700 all in which I reckon is good enough.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Connock & Lockie quoted me 3 months for a first suit in early December. The starting price is £1100, incl VAT IIRC, for a 2 piece suit.


I always wondered about that establishment. It is relatively new to Lamb's Conduit Street. The Lamb itself is a splendid pub and Italian restaurant next to the Lamb is always busy. There is another clothes shop on the other side of the road that looks interesting too.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

As I have said before, I love the suit they have already made me. Plain worsted navy blue, no turn-ups, daks tops, 3 button. It is about as classic as you can get and when I put it on I feel wonderful. It is Row quality and half the price. 

I will post progress reports because Timothy Craig has, sadly, died. But his father, William, is doing the cutting and because they already have my pattern I am confident. I will be able to compare the suits and we will see how we do.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Trousers are all about line, and your tailor should be able to reduce the bagging below the seat in the rear.


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## Armchair (Nov 12, 2006)

Thank you for this (and the other Row review) thread, Mr Pipps. I'm also thinking about taking the plunge with my first MTM suit so it is interesting to read how you got on. 

Can I ask how much your suit set you back?


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Holdfast said:


> If Wensum do MTM for Jasper Littman then I'm not surprised you're happy and they incorporated a fair bit of variation on their standard design. They seem more flexible than many MTM makers.
> 
> Bespoke obviously takes it to another level in terms of individuation, but MTM from a good tailor is SO much better than MTM from someone who doesn't truly understand what they're doing. Not only are the initial measurements more accurate/appropriate and the discussion about style details more fruitful, but the alterations after initially receiving the garment often improve it very significantly.
> 
> Your suit looks very individual indeed and obviously fits well - a very dramatic hourglass silhouette with a longer, flared skirt.


Well said, I agree.



jar2574 said:


> Very nice. Congrats on the purchase.
> 
> I couldn't tell from the pictures; are the armholes quite high? I would enjoy getting a bespoke suit or a MTM suit simply to have higher armholes.


They are higher than an off-the-peg definitely.
In fact I'm impressed by how much shape he's managed to get into an MTM garment, especially when you look at it from the back, and also when you take into account the wearer's twig like physique. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_wink:


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Will said:


> Trousers are all about line, and your tailor should be able to reduce the bagging below the seat in the rear.


That is probably the lighting but maybe shortening the back rise a little may help. I would be interested to see how good the sleeve pitch is, as this is often hard to achieve with MTM.

*W_B*


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Sorry, forget to say what a lovely suit you have. Nice lining too.

*W_B*


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> Well said, I agree.


Thanks. :icon_smile_big:



> They are higher than an off-the-peg definitely.
> In fact I'm impressed by how much shape he's managed to get into an MTM garment, especially when you look at it from the back, and also when you take into account the wearer's twig like physique. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_wink:


I'd wager this is post-delivery tailoring. I suspect the back has been taken in at the side seams after delivery of the original MTM suit. If so, it's another example of what I was saying earlier - that a good tailor can work wonders on the initial MTM product.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

It has character.

To my taste, the chest is also a little tight, and the tailor might have been a little too optimistic on the fit of the jacket's seat. But you're the one who's got to feel comfortable in it.


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## ultra (May 28, 2006)

Outstanding. The jacket is quite dramatic and makes your torso look _long_, but in a good way that isn't overbearing. Nice break on the pants too. This is a rare two-button suit that makes me want one. Would be nice to see it with a tie and pocketsquare.


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## Hard2Fit (May 11, 2005)

Nice suit. Fit pics look almost perfect to me.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

*Holdfast*
Thanks for your comments. Yes, Wensum do appear to be very flexible with the MTM pattern. Jasper Littman also has his own specific pattern with Wensum, and the good thing is that he understands how it works and was able to build in a considerable degree of variation for my needs.

I am pleased to say that the suit did not require any variation after it was delivered from Wensum. I was quite suprised when at the fitting, it fitted perfectly, and I walked away with it that same day. I then took it back a few weeks later for the sleeve extension - which was a great piece of tailoring in itself, as the it was lengthened from the bottom of the sleeve, and the sleeve buttons are operational as you can see.

The longer flared skirt is nothing something which I chose or would've probably initially wanted. But I think it works well. I'm only 5'9", and so a jacket which would probably be the textbook height might run the risk of not being very flattering in terms of my presence and stature, as it would already be so fitted. JL appears to think of all these things, even though you might not think of them yourself. This is why I think he offers a lot more than just the 'wham... bam...' Wensum stock product. He offers a considerable level of service on top of this, in many areas. The number of alterations he's performed on my suits since has been most surprising.

*manuduenas, Simon Myerson*
*


manuduenas said:



I'd prefer the sleeves a bit longer and the jacket a bit shorter

Click to expand...

*The sleeves have since been lengthened slightly. However, you're point on the jacket is an interesting one. Thanks for noticing its length.

*jar2574*



jar2574 said:


> are the armholes quite high? I would enjoy getting a bespoke suit or a MTM suit simply to have higher armholes.


I discussed the armhole height with JL before commissioning this suit. His advice was that a higher armhole can be very risky because it reduces the effective appearance of the chest. So he asked me to try it with an almost standard armhole in the first instance. I was very pleased with the result. This is experience and insight which I wouldn't have appreciated.

*Audi S5 TC*



Audi S5 TC said:


> Which Holland and Sherry book is that fabric from, Mr. Pipps?


The suiting is from the Holland & Sherry Target 11/12oz collection, number 744039. See this thread.

*Rossini*



Rossini said:


> Glad to see no turn-ups (cuffs) - as they would destroy the elegance of this beautiful suit.


You're absolutely right - who would have turn ups on a proper English suit. It would be a travesty.

*Will*



Will said:


> Trousers are all about line, and your tailor should be able to reduce the bagging below the seat in the rear.


Good point on the trousers. And I must confess, that isn't the best photograph of them. I promise - the trousers fall perfectly with no creasing whatsoever. I think I had just been sat down before that first rear photo was taken.

*Whistblower*
Thanks for your compliments! 

*Will, Whistblower*
I will try and get additional pictures to demosnstrate the back rise and sleeve pitch. I'll keep you posted.

*Concordia*
Great point on the proportion of the chest and seat. The seat is one thing that has crossed my mind since. You've spelt it out for me here - thanks. It is perhaps the only area which I would tweak for my fourth suit.

*ultra*
Thank you for your kind comments. I am really pleased with your assessment of the torso length.

*Bonhamesque*
Thank you - much apprecaited. I think JL did a remarkable job considering my size zero frame! :icon_smile_wink:


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## stcolumba (Oct 10, 2006)

Very sleek! Fantastic silhouette. I like the slanted pockets. Thanks for sharing the pictures. Congratulations.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Mr. Pipps said:


> *I am pleased to say that the suit did not require any variation after it was delivered from Wensum. *


That, more than anything else, really impresses me.


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

The shape of the jacket is excellent.

Were the jacket length shorter, it would be even more flattering. Perhaps the button stance is too low, though others may disagree. Could be the visual effect of not wearing a tie which gives that impression.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I think Mr Littman's idea here was to try and accentuate my chest as much as practically possible. By creating a slightly bigger chest area, as you suggest, the effect would hopefully that I would posess more presence when wearing the suit. Otherwise I think I might run the risk of looking rather sparrow chested!


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

Mr. Pipps said:


> I think Mr Littman's idea here was to try and accentuate my chest as much as practically possible. By creating a slightly bigger chest area, as you suggest, the effect would hopefully that I would posess more presence when wearing the suit. Otherwise I think I might run the risk of looking rather sparrow chested!


That is interesting. Usually the lower armhole with a slender build would have excess fabric under the arms. I guess that is another reason to use an excellent tailor like Littman who has obviously avoided that problem and made a very flattering jacket. His MTM seems like an outstanding value for you.


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## stcolumba (Oct 10, 2006)

Are you satisfied with the choice of the "ice blue" lining? It is one thing to look at a swatch and imagine what it will look like in the actual suit. In the photo, it looks terrific.

Can you provide any information about the shirt that we see in the photo?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Very nice. It looks like the button stance is higher than the waist line, or maybe it is the camera angle or lense curve. My preference is for no break or slight break in the pants so the cloth has a clean fall. The pocket flaps seem a little wide. The waist suppression seems to start to high. To see in person could change my ideas.

It is a distinguished jacket, the way it should be, I think. A cut above. Well done.


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## knittieguy (Jun 12, 2005)

That is an extraordinarily well-fitting suit


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

WA said:


> Very nice. It looks like the button stance is higher than the waist line, or maybe it is the camera angle or lense curve. My preference is for no break or slight break in the pants so the cloth has a clean fall. The pocket flaps seem a little wide. The waist suppression seems to start to high. To see in person could change my ideas.
> 
> It is a distinguished jacket, the way it should be, I think. A cut above. Well done.


I agree, a very nice jacket. I've previously faulted Littman for having fairly shapeless trousers, so I'm glad to hear he's playing with the design. The break appears a bit full for my taste, but that's easily changed.

And I'm pleased you're happy with the lining, which seemed to cause you so much distress when you were making the initial decision. I took the same lining on my last JL suit and am very happy with it, too -- the pink/green I went with on my first is a nice conversation piece, but not particularly attractive in itself.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

*Very sharp suit, Mr. Pipps*

I apologize for not saying that sooner.

That dark grey sharkskin fabric looks like slate sharkskin to me.

Or, the fabric of your suit looks like graphite sharkskin, if graphite is a similar shade of grey to slate and not charcoal.

Either way, it is definitely too light to be charcoal sharkskin.

Anyway, no matter how you look at it, you have top notch taste in men's dresswear, Mr. Pipps.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Audi S5 TC said:


> I apologize for not saying that sooner.
> 
> That dark grey sharkskin fabric looks like slate sharkskin to me.
> 
> ...


That dark grey sharkskin looks like charcoal sharkskin on my monitor and not slate sharkskin. Nor does it look like graphite sharkskin, if graphite is a similar shade of grey to slate. 
Audi, maybe you should add Jasper Littman to your list of tailors based in Savile Row, London, England that offer made-to-measure suits, for when you are ready to buy a suit from a tailor based in Savile Row, London, England.:icon_smile:

*W_B*


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

whistle_blower71 said:


> That dark grey sharkskin looks like charcoal sharkskin on my monitor and not slate sharkskin. Nor does it look like graphite sharkskin, if graphite is a similar shade of grey to slate.
> Audi, maybe you should add Jasper Littman to your list of tailors based in Savile Row, London, England that offer made-to-measure suits, for when you are ready to buy a suit from a tailor based in Savile Row, London, England.:icon_smile:
> 
> *W_B*


Will do, whistleblower71.

However, I will be buying bespoke and not made to measure when I buy some suits that are not off the rack.

As I stated awhile back, contrary to what I originally thought, I easily have tons of time and patience for the lengthy process of bespoke clothing purchases (including tailored clothing which would be suits and suit separates, sports jackets, dress pants, odd vests, overcoats, tuxedos and tuxedo separates, formal odd vests and formal overcoats).


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## Trommel (Sep 27, 2006)

Mr Pipps - could I ask the price? By PM, if you'd prefer.


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

Trommel said:


> Mr Pipps - could I ask the price? By PM, if you'd prefer.


Littman's suits start around £600-700.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

*Audi S5 TC*
Thank you for the compliments. Much appreciated!

It is indeed difficicult to adequately represent the fabric with my limited knowledge of camerawork and lighting. I hope I've done a reasonable job of it!

*Trommel*
PM sent.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

whistle_blower71 said:


> That dark grey sharkskin looks like charcoal sharkskin on my monitor and not slate sharkskin. Nor does it look like graphite sharkskin, if graphite is a similar shade of grey to slate.
> Audi, maybe you should add Jasper Littman to your list of tailors based in Savile Row, London, England that offer made-to-measure suits, for when you are ready to buy a suit from a tailor based in Savile Row, London, England.:icon_smile:
> 
> *W_B*





Audi S5 TC said:


> Will do, whistleblower71.
> 
> However, I will be buying bespoke and not made to measure when I buy some suits that are not off the rack.
> 
> As I stated awhile back, contrary to what I originally thought, I easily have tons of time and patience for the lengthy process of bespoke clothing purchases (including tailored clothing which would be suits and suit separates, sports jackets, dress pants, odd vests, overcoats, tuxedos and tuxedo separates, formal odd vests and formal overcoats).


Don't forget that Jasper Littman also makes bespoke suits in Savile Row, London, England, UK. :icon_smile_big:


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Bonhamesque said:


> Don't forget that Jasper Littman also makes bespoke suits in Savile Row, London, England, UK. :icon_smile_big:


In addition to his bespoke suits he offers to customers in Savile Row, London, England does he also offer suit separates, sports jackets, dress pants, odd vests, overcoats, tuxedos and tuxedo separates, formal odd vests and formal overcoats to his customers in Savile Row, London, England?

*W_B*


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Aren't those things fairly normal as offerings in tailor shops?


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

whistle_blower71 said:


> In addition to his bespoke suits he offers to customers in Savile Row, London, England does he also offer suit separates, sports jackets, dress pants, odd vests, overcoats, tuxedos and tuxedo separates, formal odd vests and formal overcoats to his customers in Savile Row, London, England?
> 
> *W_B*


I believe that all clothing tailors worldwide (including all of those on Savile Row as well as lower end tailors like Alan David, Giliberto Designs and Mr. Ned, all of whom are in New York City, NY) offer everything that you just asked about.

BTW, if you don't mind me saying so, you are starting to sound an awful lot like me, whistle_blower71.

According to what is now my sworn personal preference on Savile Row, William Westmancott, double vents and, even more so, single vents are a fashion faux pas, or as William Westmancott called it, "Deadly Sartorial Sin Number 6" (out of 7 "Deadly Sartorial Sins" overall).

However due to ventless overcoats of any kind making it virtually impossible for people to walk without frequently falling and getting hurt, it is neither a fashion faux pas nor a "Deadly Sartorial Sin" for a formal overcoat to have double vents. As for a single vent on a formal overcoat, that may or may not be a fashion faux pas even though it is probably not a "Deadly Sartorial Sin".

Based on the fact that William Westmancott far more strongly that all other clothing makers on Earth (at least from what I have read, heard and seen) touts that all kinds of hand tailoring in all areas of all clothing (at least in all areas of all bespoke dresswear and formalwear for men and women) is far superior to all kinds of machine tailoring in all areas of all bespoke dresswear and formal wear for women, "no matter how good modern machines get", all of William Westmancott's bespoke dresswear and formalwear for men and women is 100% hand tailored and 0% machine tailored throughout.

FWIW, William Westmancott's advertising slogan is "Savile Row, the way it should be", which he touts just as strongly about his opinion of all kinds of hand tailoring being far superior to all kinds of machine tailoring in all areas of all bespoke (or, as he calls it, "handcraft bespoke") dresswear and formalwear for men and women.

Otherwise, why would he tout is advertising slogan and hand tailoring being so much better than machine tailoring as strongly as he does (which, again, is equally strongly and ultra strongly in both cases), charge the prices that range from very high to extraordinarily high that he charges for all of his "handcraft bespoke" clothing, have the extraordinarily high confidence that he has in all of his "handcraft bespoke" clothing and make all of the other considerable claims that he makes about his clothing (that are all supremely positive, I might add)?

Now that is what I call putting things in perspective, and an excellent job of it, I might also add.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Audi S5 TC said:


> I believe that all clothing tailors worldwide (including all of those on Savile Row as well as lower end tailors like Alan David, Giliberto Designs and Mr. Ned, all of whom are in New York City, NY) offer everything that you just asked about.
> 
> *BTW, if you don't mind me saying so, you are starting to sound an awful lot like me, whistle_blower71.*
> 
> ...


I will take that as the highest form of flattery on Earth.:icon_smile:

*W_B*


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

whistle_blower71 said:


> In addition to his bespoke suits he offers to customers in Savile Row, London, England does he also offer suit separates, sports jackets, dress pants, odd vests, overcoats, tuxedos and tuxedo separates, formal odd vests and formal overcoats to his customers in Savile Row, London, England?
> 
> *W_B*


I believe he does.
Not only in Savile Row, Mayfair, London, England but also in many other locations around the capital as he is of course a visiting tailor.
Effectively this means he also covers Ealing, London, England, Hampstead, London, England, Kensington, London, England, Knightsbridge, London, England, Islington, London, England, Canary Wharf, London, England, Barbican, London, England, Kings Cross, London, England, Chiswick, London, England, Maida Vale, London, England and many many more.



Audi S5 TC said:


> According to what is now my sworn personal preference on Savile Row, William Westmancott, double vents and, even more so, single vents are a fashion faux pas, or as William Westmancott called it, "Deadly Sartorial Sin Number 6" (out of 7 "Deadly Sartorial Sins" overall).


I assume you must be talking about overcoats now.



Audi S5 TC said:


> However due to ventless overcoats of any kind making it virtually impossible for people to walk without frequently falling and getting hurt, it is neither a fashion faux pas nor a "Deadly Sartorial Sin" for a formal overcoat to have double vents. As for a single vent on a formal overcoat, that may or may not be a fashion faux pas even though it is probably not a "Deadly Sartorial Sin".


Double vented overcoats? Are you sure that that's not a faux pas of some kind...?



Audi S5 TC said:


> Otherwise, why would he tout is advertising slogan and hand tailoring being so much better than machine tailoring as strongly as he does (which, again, is equally strongly and ultra strongly in both cases), charge the prices that range from very high to extraordinarily high that he charges for all of his "handcraft bespoke" clothing, have the extraordinarily high confidence that he has in all of his "handcraft bespoke" clothing and make all of the other considerable claims that he makes about his clothing (that are all supremely positive, I might add)?


Don't believe every single word that you read. It is after all sales pitch. He's trying to sell you something don't forget.
I'm not suggesting it isn't true but any sales pitch should be taken with a pinch of salt.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> I believe he does.
> Not only in Savile Row, Mayfair, London, England but also in many other locations around the capital as he is of course a visiting tailor.
> Effectively this means he also covers Ealing, London, England, Hampstead, London, England, Kensington, London, England, Knightsbridge, London, England, Islington, London, England, Canary Wharf, London, England, Barbican, London, England, Kings Cross, London, England, Chiswick, London, England, Maida Vale, London, England and many many more.


That is excellent to know, Bohamesque.



Bonhamesque said:


> I assume you must be talking about overcoats now.


Actually, I was talking about double vents and especially single vents on dinner jackets being a major fashion faux pas or "Deadly Sartorial Sin Number 6".



Bonhamesque said:


> Double vented overcoats? Are you sure that that's not a faux pas of some kind...?


Why would double vented overcoats be a fashion faux pas of any kind? Do double vented overcoats make it more difficult to walk safely than single vented overcoats?



Bonhamesque said:


> Don't believe every single word that you read. It is after all sales pitch. He's trying to sell you something don't forget.
> I'm not suggesting it isn't true but any sales pitch should be taken with a pinch of salt.


Of course, if any of William Westmancott's handcraft bespoke clothing for men and women have any machine tailoring whatsoever, it would be negligible (one percent of the whole entire article of clothing at the most). However, I honestly believe (but I will admit that I certainly do not know for a fact) that all of his handcraft bespoke clothing for men and women is 100% hand tailored.

But much more likely much less than one percent of the whole entire article of clothing is machine tailored, if at all, as all of the methods William Westmancott uses to tailor all of his handcraft bespoke clothing for the excellent or extraordinary fit, drapery, comfort, appearance and quality of all of his handcraft bespoke clothing discussed in several full details would not even be the least bit possible if the percentage of machine tailoring was any amount higher than one percent.

Anyhow, whatever percentage of the whole entire article of all of his clothing that may have machine tailoring that is one percent or any amount lower than one percent is done with take home size sewing (and only machine tailored in areas where machine tailoring is nearly as good or just as good as hand tailoring or a small amount better than hand tailoring with machine tailoring being any amount less of all of the following than hand tailoring: time and labor consuming, cost to manufacture and a much lower price to sell for-in the case of William Westmancott and his employees and a much lower price to buy at-in the case of William Westmancott's and his employees' customers) machines that are not any amount of the following: complex, large, industrial, modern, high tech, modern tech and expensive and all of the following: simple, small or relatively small, old fashioned, low tech, old tech, and relatively inexpensive with manual mechanical operation (lots of or, somewhat more likely, complete human intervention for these sewing machines to machine tailor the clothing) though more expensive than all other take home sewing machine that fit these descriptions due to the following being excellent or extraordinary: quality, reliability, durability and dependability.

Also, FWIW, William Westmancott is tied with H. Huntsman for being the most expensive tailor on Savile Row.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

My head hurts.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

Simon Myerson said:


> I went in on Dec 18th and was told that I could have a first fitting at the beginning of Feb, which was the date I specified. Can't help more than that. Price for single breasted Heild cloth, 2 pairs trousers and some very fancy lining (plus various religious requirements) was about £1700 all in which I reckon is good enough.


Our attention is recalled to this thread.

I am curious to learn of "religious" requirements and the effect on the suit. Is this the linen 'issue' of the Jewish faith - could you elaborate please?


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

GBR said:


> Our attention is recalled to this thread.
> 
> I am curious to learn of "religious" requirements and the effect on the suit. Is this the linen 'issue' of the Jewish faith - could you elaborate please?


Now I'm confused.
That quote from Simon Myerson isn't even from this thread...?

The linen thing is about mixing linen and wool in the same suit I think. The suit needs to be inspected by a Rabbi to make sure it meets the necessary religious requirements.
This shouldn't add much of a charge to the overall cost though.


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## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

I don't know what connection this has to the thread either but...

From what I hear, it need not be a Rabbi, but the garment must be inspected by a 'kosher' certified lab that checks small areas of fabric that are prone to have linen (assuming the suit is wool). I have a friend who has this issue and has had the collar lining replaced before on suits of his.

Cordovan


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks for the info!


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

Cordovan is right on the religious bit - mixing linen and wool in one garment (pronounced shatnez for those who may be interested) is forbidden. If you ask in advance, a decent tailor will use different canvassing material which excludes the linen. I am told this is softer than what would otherwise be used, although I am not sure why this should be so. I have to say that it seems to make no difference in appearance or the length for which the garment lasts. 

I remember being taken to an East End tailors in about 1985. They had a lot of Jewish clients and made MTM suits. There was a long line of finished suits on the rail, and the ones for religious Jews had a little star of David ticket on the sleeve, upon which the legend 'Jewish suit' was scrawled.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

*PS*

Mr P, I should also say sorry to inadvertently hijack your thread - and you look to have a really great suit.


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## tiealign (Nov 16, 2005)

I think it looks pretty good other than the few things already mentioned...jacket length and trouser seat...I generally don't like slanted pockets but I think they work pretty well with this silhouette.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> Now I'm confused.
> That quote from Simon Myerson isn't even from this thread...?
> 
> The linen thing is about mixing linen and wool in the same suit I think. The suit needs to be inspected by a Rabbi to make sure it meets the necessary religious requirements.
> This shouldn't add much of a charge to the overall cost though.


It is to be found on the first page of the thread.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Simon Myerson said:


> Mr P, I should also say sorry to inadvertently hijack your thread - and you look to have a really great suit.


You're a real gent. Thank you! 

Tiealign, thank you for your compliments, too.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

GBR said:


> It is to be found on the first page of the thread.


Ah thanks.

That confused me because I thought he was talking about a Littman suit and the price seemed far higher than normal.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Simon Myerson said:


> I went in on Dec 18th and was told that I could have a first fitting at the beginning of Feb, which was the date I specified. Can't help more than that. Price for single breasted Heild cloth, 2 pairs trousers and some very fancy lining (plus various religious requirements) was about £1700 all in which I reckon is good enough.


To confirm, were you refering to Connock & Lockie?


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