# Necktie Type with Morning Suit?



## ColeFieldHouse (Aug 26, 2005)

With the recent debates about the appropriateness of various forms of the morning suit, I got curious about what types of FIH necktie would be appropriate such an outfit. There didn't seem to be much discussion on the accompanying neckwear (other than to avoid the cliched ascot). My wedding party will be going with standard collar white shirt and FIH ties. I'm strongly considering ordering Sam Hober/Mulberrywood ties for the groomsmen and am stuck on some of the weaves and patterns. 

Would a grenadine be acceptable? What about a conservative stripe pattern? Are there any weaves or patterns that are flagrantly unacceptable?

Thanks!
Craig


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

What the British call a wedding tie is the most acceptable. Also known as a Macclesfield after the town where they were first woven, they are woven in small patterns that are typically silver, often combined with black as well. 

I don't recall Sam Hober having any Macclesfields but David is a resourceful man and you should discuss your requirements with him. Between your wedding party and the tie I will order from that pattern if he offers it, he may have enough to justify adding a pattern.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

I think a superb morningwear tie from David would be the new light gray Atkinson's Royal Irish Poplin model that he shows on this page:



I have an Atkinson's RIP tie that was made by XMI a few years back when they were partnering. It's a plain-weave light gray with just the faintest tinge of lilac to it. I wear it whenever I'm a wedding guest, typically with one of my navy-blue striped suits and a pair of Thurston's gray boxcloth braces with the white sheepgut ends and a solid white cutaway collar shirt with double cuffs and plain gold-oval chain-linked double-sided cufflinks. The tie has garnered significant compliments.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

ColeFieldHouse said:


> With the recent debates about the appropriateness of various forms of the morning suit, I got curious about what types of FIH necktie would be appropriate such an outfit. There didn't seem to be much discussion on the accompanying neckwear (other than to avoid the cliched ascot). My wedding party will be going with standard collar white shirt and FIH ties. I'm strongly considering ordering Sam Hober/Mulberrywood ties for the groomsmen and am stuck on some of the weaves and patterns.
> 
> Would a grenadine be acceptable? What about a conservative stripe pattern? Are there any weaves or patterns that are flagrantly unacceptable?
> 
> ...


I personally think that cravats are fine with morning dress as long as they are self-tie cravats held tidy with cravat pin. Oscar Wilde looks perfectly dandy in a cravat with a Ruche knot here (he is wearing a frock coat but the principle is the same):

I think you almost have to bespeak a proper one with the silk weave loose enough to put a cravat pin through without it damaging it. Weddings are the best place for a cravat as long ties are generally standard for most things:

Grey and black are the most traditional colours for a tie but other colours are considered acceptable these days:

I will pull out details later from a book about the ideal dimensions of a proper self-tie cravat and how to tie it in the most formal knot which I believe may be called an ascot knot.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

BTW would Alexander Kabbaz please tell us about the details of the shirt you wear with morning dress when you wear a cravat and shirt with winged collars at a wedding?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

This is just the sort of pre-tied cravat that gives it a bad name:

https://www.forzieri.com/usa/produc...re2=&id_valore3=&id_valore4=&id_valore5=&rl=9

https://www.forzieri.com/usa/produc...re2=&id_valore3=&id_valore4=&id_valore5=&rl=9

The first is in the (?) ascot knot and the next is in a Ruche knot but both pre-tied. Sadly decent self-tie cravats (the Italians call them plastron ties) seem to be as rare as hen's teeth these days.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Here is an example by Brioni of morning dress with what is obviously a self-tie cravat:

https://imageshack.us

The ideal dimensions are said to be width 6.5'' max and 1.75 at it narrowest part, length 52'' (from Villarosa and Angeli, _The Elegant Man_):

https://imageshack.us

Here is how you tie it (again from Villarosa and Angeli, _The Elegant Man_):

I am unsure but I think I might have seen this knot called an ascot knot somewhere but cannot track down my source and it could a figment of my imagination.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Someone, who shall remain nameless for his own good, asked for my opinion on this subject so I'll weigh in.

Personally, I like mornings. The cool, damp air as the Sun slowly peeks its head above the horizon is always inspirational. The birds begin to chirp and the wildlife arises as the world begins its journey through the day.

So I suppose that if it's morning - and you must wear clothing - a morning suit seems well-named for the purpose. A shirt also seems a good 'nuf idea as mornings ... 'specially this time of year ... can offer somewhat of a chill through the bones. Would that be a "morning shirt"?

To be quite honest, I've never heard of a morning tie although I suppose one might be a nice touch to go with all the other morning stuff.

Not to go far afield, but among the society crowd with whose rules you seem to be grappling, Mrs. Post was always referred to as the arbiter of good and proper taste. You might wish to consult her edicts on the subject and forego the more modern tomes usually cited as grounds for discourse.

BTW, you may have found a diagram or seven showing ways in which to tie an ascot. Personally, I've seen at least 20 on various clients, each the fancier than the last. But one I remember in particular as he seemed the least contrived and most comfortable with the whole thing just threw one end over a loop in the other, poufed it out a bit, and went his merry way through his jolly day.

And the moral of the story is: *Don't let the "Rules" stifle your creativity.*

Sally forth, gentlemen, heads held high and walking sticks at the ready!

Now, where was that damn martini?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Oh come on be a good sport now and tell us, do!

How are your shirts put together for your daily strolls down Park Avenue in morning dress while sniffing the morning air?

Do you make them with turn down collars? What do you think of winged collar and cravat for weddings? Or even winged collar and long tie (like Gary Cooper)?

How is the shirt front constructed? 

ps indeed 'twas I who was foolish enough to drag a shirtmaker to the party. But he seems to have had one martini too many:icon_smile:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Oh - my *personal* preference?

Oyster-white fine (very fine, not coarse) silk broadcloth. French (plain) front center with white 16 ligne M.O.P. Buttons. Turndown semi-spread edge-stitched high collar. Proper (single, non-folding) Link cuffs. Platinum & black M.O.P. double-sided round cufflinks. MacClesfield (coloration) ascot with stickpin. Light grey walking stick with platinum fittings.

Or maybe a denime colored Moody Blues T-shirt and a pair of 1973 vintage YSL cotton velvet jeans. In that case, a black walking stick would be preferable.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Oh - my *personal* preference?
> 
> Oyster-white fine (very fine, not coarse) silk broadcloth. French (plain) front center with white 16 ligne M.O.P. Buttons. Turndown semi-spread edge-stitched high collar. Proper (single, non-folding) Link cuffs. Platinum & black M.O.P. double-sided round cufflinks. MacClesfield (coloration) ascot with stickpin. Light grey walking stick with platinum fittings.


Sounds perfect for your stroll down Park Avenue tomorrow morning whistling Irwin Berlin's "Putting on the Ritz":

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=62091

The only thing is how do you manage to combine a turndown collar with a cravat ('ascot')? I thought a turndown collar is only worn with a long tie and cravats with winged collars:

https://www.thecravatcompany.co.uk/howtotie.htm

Also would you approve of anyone wearing a long tie with a winged collar in the manner of Gary Cooper?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

A shirtmaker I know actually did once have to make a decision about all this, as he was invited to a garden party at Buckingham Palace. It was springtime, he said, and so he went with a yellow linen/cotton shirt with white collar/cuffs. I don't know for sure what the tie was, but it might have been a lavender sort of thing. 

If the cutters in his shop didn't make the morning coat I'd be very surprised.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Sator said:


> Sounds perfect for your stroll down Park Avenue tomorrow morning whistling Irwin Berlin's "Putting on the Ritz":


No. That will be Thursday morning. Not tomorrow.



Sator said:


> The only thing is how do you manage to combine a turndown collar with a cravat ('ascot')? I thought a turndown collar is only worn with a long tie and cravats with winged collars:


You are correct. I prefer to wear a *high* collar (which allows sufficient room for that huge bunch of fabric) and break the rules. As I said, *personal* opinion.



Sator said:


> Also would you approve of anyone wearing a long tie with a winged collar in the manner of Gary Cooper?


 Absolutely! I think it would be simply smashing! That is, until everyone copied it.

Remember, I'm not espousing this for a client. Just FWIW - which ain't much - offering a personal opinion. But all this talk is making me want to break out an ascot for Thursday morning stroll before the parade which, by chance, will just happen to be on Park Avenue instead of here in East Hampton where nobody (at least nobody male) *ever* dons neckwear. Oh, what the hell. Maybe I'll even wear one *to* the parade. And ... I think I'll forego _Puttin' on the Ritz_ in favor of _Knights in White Satin_.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I prefer to wear a *high* collar (which allows sufficient room for that huge bunch of fabric) and break the rules.


Detachable collar or attached?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Sator said:


> Detachable collar or attached?


 Probably detached for three reasons. 

Using a specially shaped band on the shirt and a concealed rear studhole will make it wearable also as a tunic shirt. That plus a detach semi-spread and detach wing gives me three shirts in one 
Add to that the fact that with the single link cuffs I can also superimpose a button cuff and now I've got four shirts in one 
Final reason is that the shirtmaker I use is a tad pricey ... and if I can get him for four shirts while paying only for one it really feels like a bargain
 The shirt I described, except for the cuffs, is the one I used to make for Wynn. He had a slightly higher disposable income than I so he didn't get the 4-in-1 detach; just a few of each style.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Wonderful. Thank you Mr Kabbaz for sharing your thoughts.

Now we need only wait for some of the English forum members to pitch in. I imagine some of them may argue that turndown collar and long tie is standard and that all else is either anachronistic or faux pas. But we shall see.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

A detachable stiff collar is really best, but if you don't have access to that, an ordinary spread collar will do fine.

I would definitely go for a tie with a four-in-hand knot instead of a cravat. As Will mentioned, a "wedding tie" (woven with a small pattern in silver or black and white) would be most conventional and formal. However, there's nothing wrong with wearing a different tie. Something colorful, with a small pattern or even a stripe, would be good for a wedding.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

I am keen to try the cravat one day; I have two but have yet to learn how to tie them (for which purpose the diagram you shared above will be invaluable; thank you, Sator). Generally these days I wear a semi-spread turndown detachable collar with a tie with a fairly discreet pattern and a double-cuff white tunic shirt but I have been known occasionally to wear a plain stiff-fronted shirt with link cuff (I use pearl studs for the day) with wing collar and a straight tie with pearl pin, viz:










Incidentally, for what it is worth, the last collar on this page is the one I was wearing on the day: https://uk.geocities.com/anthony_hugh_jordan/Vintage_Wing_Collars.html


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Definitely a black/white/grey as shown by the POWs and advised by Will and Trilby. I have always worn one by Mary Quant I got in the sixties and have recently bought one in the above colours with a touch of gold from Richard James. I just have not worn it yet which is the same as three other ties of his I have, great on the shelf but not so good when I try them on. Turndown collar and plain white shirt not like the present POW and sons.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

As expected I see the Brits are voting largely for turndown collar and standard long tie. Neither of the POWs shown even wear cravats for their weddings let alone on any occasion - so there seems to be a feeling that cravats are out. However, the Italians do seem to favour them for weddings and I do wonder if the dreaded pre-tied cravat has given them an undeserved reputation for being cheap and nasty. After all right up till the Edwardian era and slightly beyond they were the more formal option and last historical link to the cravats that Beau Brummell once spent hours tying to perfection.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I prefer to wear a *high* collar (which allows sufficient room for that huge bunch of fabric [from the cravat/'ascot']) and break the rules. As I said, *personal* opinion.


Actually I have found historical precedent for the wearing of cravat and turndown collar:

https://imageshack.us

One would swear it depicts Alexander Kabbaz himself if it had not been published (in New York) in 1910.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Sator said:


> Actually I have found historical precedent for the wearing of cravat and turndown collar:
> 
> https://imageshack.us
> 
> One would swear it depicts Alexander Kabbaz himself if it had not been published (in New York) in 1910.


Ha! I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out!


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Sator said:


> As expected I see the Brits are voting largely for turndown collar and standard long tie. Neither of the POWs shown even wear cravats for their weddings let alone on any occasion - so there seems to be a feeling that cravats are out. However, the Italians do seem to favour them for weddings and I do wonder if the dreaded pre-tied cravat has given them an undeserved reputation for being cheap and nasty. After all right up till the Edwardian era and slightly beyond they were the more formal option and last historical link to the cravats that Beau Brummell once spent hours tying to perfection.


I think the Princes exemplify the ideal for modern morning dress. Never was a fan of winged collars in day light, and only wear them in evening for full dress, which is rare. 
Or maybe with full undress when moonlighting at Chippendales's


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> No. That will be Thursday morning. Not tomorrow.
> 
> You are correct. I prefer to wear a *high* collar (which allows sufficient room for that huge bunch of fabric) and break the rules. As I said, *personal* opinion.
> 
> ...


Ah, I can see it now: Crisp Sunday morning in East Hampton NY, Squire Kabbazz of Bonac exits church, full morning dress, bespoke spread collar shirt, nattily tied cravat, LL BEAN duck boots.

He doffs his topper to the Vicar, proceeds across the street to the green, with silver topped cane to brim of hat he snaps off a salute at the tomb of the Lords Gardiner.

He promenades further on Main street, a wave to the staff at Mark, Fore, & Strike, one of the last trad purveyors for several counties around.

He finds his horseless carriage unmolested in the parking lot, tires freshly vulcanized, the tank full of petroleum distilate.

Home for a quick change. Same shirt but with bespoke Nanny reds, crested blue blazer, top siders, and club tie. Then to lunch at Devon Yacht Club.

After the hot open turkey sandwich and 2 southsides, a 1 hour nap on the deck before changing to shorts and polo for a leisurely sale around Gardiners Bay till sunset.

That night, as city slickers, social climbers, and various other vulgarians depart and clog 27 West to the Shinnecock Canal, he takes in a live reggae act at the Stephen Talkhouse still in his sailing gear, sweater tied over shoulders. The girls are dressed down too, and as the beer flows, their inhibitions head the same direction...


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

I'd be another advocate for the detatched turndown with a standard tie. Here in the UK cravats have been cheapened somewhat by horrific hire company offerings. For this reason alone I'd avoid. This said, given the right instance I'd be happy to employ either a long tie or a cravat with a detatch wing collar. Indeed I sometimes wear this style of collar with a long tie anyway. 
Sator: I'm a bit confused. I seem to remember reading in one of your posts ( or maybe it was your Wiki article ?) that frock coats didn't have exterior pockets. The one in the picture you posted does, what gives ?


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Probably detached for three reasons.
> 
> Using a specially shaped band on the shirt and a concealed rear studhole will make it wearable also as a tunic shirt. That plus a detach semi-spread and detach wing gives me three shirts in one
> Add to that the fact that with the single link cuffs I can also superimpose a button cuff and now I've got four shirts in one
> ...


Not sure why the shirt needs to be 4 in 1. The cleaner will ruin it after the first wearing.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Bertie Wooster said:


> I'd be another advocate for the detatched turndown with a standard tie. Here in the UK cravats have been cheapened somewhat by horrific hire company offerings. For this reason alone I'd avoid. This said, given the right instance I'd be happy to employ either a long tie or a cravat with a detatch wing collar. Indeed I sometimes wear this style of collar with a long tie anyway.
> Sator: I'm a bit confused. I seem to remember reading in one of your posts ( or maybe it was your Wiki article ?) that frock coats didn't have exterior pockets. The one in the picture you posted does, what gives ?


Yes, it does look like cravats have fallen out of favour. In fact trying to get a quality self tie cravat of the more conservative colours like the one in the Brioni example is close to impossible. Mostly you see a lot of gaudy looking self-tie cravats or tasteless pre-tied ones. Never do you see this classical silvery-grey striped sort. I can see how it has been brought into disrepute. A shame in some ways.

The example with Oscar Wilde in a frock coat with a chest pocket is quite striking. It is extremely rare to see this feature on that garment and I imagine Wilde specifically asked for it of his tailor - just so he could sport a pocket square along with his boutonierre (doubtless with a green carnation!). I am sure it would have been considered a bit flamboyant and fashion forward in its day but that is in keeping with the personality of its wearer.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

Sator: Intriguing, what about outer waist pockets on a frock coat ? Incorrect or what ? I cannot recall seeing an example with them myself, but that goes for nothing !


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Bertie Wooster said:


> Sator: Intriguing, what about outer waist pockets on a frock coat ? Incorrect or what ? I cannot recall seeing an example with them myself, but that goes for nothing !


I have never seen waist pockets - ever.

You see them on morning coats but that is because they were originally a casual coat and having 'practical' features like a small pocket was acceptable - as were notched lapels. This one dates from the Royal Ascot in 1914:

No outer waist pocket visible but you can easily imagine something being there like this:

https://imageshack.us

But you no more see waist pockets on frock coats than you do on tail coats.

It all just goes to show that the reason morning dress was originally worn to the Royal Ascot was that around the Edwardian era morning dress was considered informal dress. Also morning coats with their cutaway fronts are equestrian in origin. Morning dress got its name from the fact that a common form of morning excercise for the Victorian gentleman was to go riding. I have read things in which Victorian gentlemen express dismay at the declining standards of dress because of men turning up in morning coats where frock coats were de rigeur. I guess it was like turning up in your track suit after your morning jog.

Even as late as 1919 morning dress was worn informally:

https://imageshack.us

You can see the Italian PM at the Treaty of Versailles wearing a lounge suit whereas the British, French and US heads of state wear a morning coat suggesting that the lounge suit and morning dress were regarded as being at a similar level of informality. Only for the formal signing of the treaty do they all dress up formally in their frock coats:

https://imageshack.us


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

Another cracking post Sator, many thanks !


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Yes, great post and images. Points well taken about the evolution of more everyday wear becoming formal wear in another/future era. There are ceratinly many examples of this.

I do like the current state of morning dress exemplified by the Princes, as opposed to the usual hire crap with erzatz victorian neckwear.

Cheers


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