# Morning dress



## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Hello!

I have got a few questions for you. 

1. What do you think about wearing bow ties with morning dress?




























(on the right, at the border)

2. What do you think about lack of pocket square and breast pocket on morning coat?

3. A few variations on morning dress, which usually are not included in guides (or that are not black or oxford grey morning coats with one or two buttons and pointed or step lapels): which ones are correct in your opinion?

a) morning coat with lapels faced in silk (it is probably derived from a frock coat):










High resolution

b) shawl collared morning coat:










c) double breasted morning coat (which button configuration is the best in your opinion? In mine four, button one):



















d) navy morning coat, or a morning coat with gilt buttons, or a morning coat with three buttons:










After all, I welcome you to Morning Dress Guide. 

Best regards, Dr


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

I think one should differentiate between a cutaway tailcoat as a morning coat and one as 'period' dress. That in mind, for conventional modern wear I would not deviate from black, charcoal or grey, have multiple buttons, or buttons in gilt. I also think the shawl may have been a misplaced fashion for a short while because the pedigree just doesn't seen right for a modern morning coat to have a shawl lapel. Likewise, silk lapels may have been a fashion choice at some time but has not been 'right' for the morning coat for some time. 

As far as a bow tie goes: unconventional but not incorrect, I would venture. My analysis is that a bow tie is appropriate where a long tie would get in the way (of food or work). With a dinner jacket it is necessary because the waistcoat is low cut. However, with a day waistcoat, a tie is help in place by the waistcoat and won't get in the way. Actually, on that analysis maybe a bow tie with morning coat is not so sound.

By the way, I'm not sure how much we can be put in store by such old magazine pictures. I would hate for future generations to judge, say, the 2010s by what was shown in GQ and Esquire. I suspect fashion images will always be pushing boundaries and will not necessarily represent convention.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Already answered this on the FL but for the sake of completeness:

1. Bow ties are acceptable. Evidence to be found in Dress Worn at His Majesty's Court were it is advised that those who wear neck badges of Orders should wear a bow tie with morning dress. Therefore it is certainly decreed to be correct to do so. And as per vintage examples, etc.

2. If there is no breast pocket, then you can't really do anything about it. I think this is discussed on the other topic post. If there is one, wear a square.

3. They are all 'correct'. When morning coats were worn like lounge suit today they came in all manner of shapes and lapels and buttons. I would say that you shouldn't go see the Queen in anything by the prescribed 1B PL as anything else is considered 'informal'.

a) never seen a half faced coat before but I don't see why not. Probably suitable for something festive but as per above, not in formal occasions.

b) again, see above.

c) TBH, I would love a DB morning coat as it is a guarenteed something that no-one else will be sporting.

d) I draw the line here as it is beginning to border into the realms of very informal like a blazer more like...​


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## Sufferable Fob (Aug 26, 2009)

2. I would guess this was an attempt to make the coat more formal as it began to replace the frock, akin to how "white tie" accessories were worn with early "black tie"... which leads into....

3. These were all perfectly fine in their day and purpose. Hardly anyone these days has use for a demi-formal coat, demi-formal morning trousers, or a morning suit. Last breathing person I've seen in one that wasn't an accidental costume created by the formalwear industry was Prince Charles. Wearing something suitable for the races isn't appropriate if you're dressing for your wedding.

As such, a "morning suit" is a different level of formality than the traditional rig with cashmere stripe trousers, et cetera. And different styles and patterns as well, not to mention the checked morning suit, also available in stripe.

These days, with so few people - especially in the USA - wearing morning dress, it's been codified to the point of caricature. Much like white tie, where everyone is wearing the very exact same thing.

I see nothing wrong with adding a bit of originality to the standard rig, but if you're around faux-knowledgeable people, they might think you're "wrong" if you go too far with it. Things such as braid or binding, or having a double-breasted coat or waistcoat are all things that can easily slip in and still be understandable to the modern person.

A shawl lapel, velvet coat, or four buttons (which I have seen, historically) is pushing it unless you have the charisma and knowledge to back it up. If the outfit isn't backed up by confident knowledge and an eye for such things, you're just begging to look like you're wearing a halloween costume. But, honestly, you're probably going to look that way anyway unless you're around people who have worn morning dress at least once in their lives while sober.

Also, the velvet coat is a _very early_ example, if you check the date. It wasn't even really a "morning coat", yet - and I would not use it as an example as such when used for modern comparative purposes. And, yes, it's velvet - take a look at the other image on the V&A page here.

History is interesting, but most of it doesn't impact the person just trying to rent something once for a wedding. In that case, it's more a battle of trying to find the least ugly option.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Dr Kilroy said:


> d) navy morning coat, or a morning coat with gilt buttons, or a morning coat with three buttons:


Brooks Brothers Black Fleece has offered one just like this sometime in the last few years. I suspect few were sold, and some sat around for a long time on ebay, new with tags. The problem with this sort of thing, is that while it would be fine at a traditional sporting event where a blazer would be appropriate, it is much too unique to be attractive to the very people who attend such events, because among this set to stand out or be fashionable is not a quality to be desired.

In any case, one might attend some events in a morning coat. Of course, there are different types of events, and one would need a different coat for each. NJS for example, recommends having two: one with braid around the edges, and another without, for more serious occasions.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If I were getting my own morning coat I wouldn't go much farther than one button, peak lapels, black or dark grey. The multiple button or double breasted variations are a little too informal for the sort of events full morning dress is used for now. Same with the shawl or notch collared evening tails that were being sold around the same time. All the other crazy variations, while interesting, are going a little too far.

As for breast pockets, this picture speaks volumes. You need one for sure.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Gosh, Dr. Kilroy, _what a good link_. I_ really_ like that website..

I think if you're going to depart from the one button peaked lapel black you have to be careful and do everything in moderation. Personally, I think bow ties should be considered absolutely fine and not even a kind of 'acceptable variation'. Aside from that I think the only features of the above that I would actually go with are: Bound edges, notch lapel and I feel fine about no breast pocket. In fact one fo my morning coats is notch lapel with no breast pocket.

I don't know how I'd react to a shawl collar morning coat if one landed in my lap. I don't think I'd be dead against it, but then the chances are I'd sell it out of pure greed.

S


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

One area that gets little comment is the wearing of morning coats with or without the buttons done up. You will see from your older photos that this was very common but the practice now is very much to have them done up.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

culverwood said:


> One area that gets little comment is the wearing of morning coats with or without the buttons done up. You will see from your older photos that this was very common but the practice now is very much to have them done up.


That's because people used to really own and wear their nice clothes, doing what felt comfortable to them, rather than feeling that they were strapping on a costume that must be worn in accordance with the wardrobe director's wishes. My view: it's _your_ [email protected] jacket... wear it as you see fit, especially since the presence of the waistcoat dispenses with any question as to propriety.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I must agree with you.


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## egerland (Aug 18, 2008)

Nice to know bow ties are acceptable. I have a daytime formal event later this year, and its nice to have a bit of flexibility.


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## Phileas Fogg (Oct 20, 2008)

Nice pictures.
Well a bow tie is a tie. It has become uncommon nowadays but I do not see why it could not be worn with a morning coat.

The variation morning coats and a thing of the past, probably somewhat popular when morning coats where worn almost daily. As now morning coats are restricted to functions of some kind or another it is much better and safer to adhere to the conventional black/dark grey or morning suit.
But should you decide you prefer (and decide you are strong enough to withstand all the inevitable comments, which will come your way) a morning coat to a suit for the office perhaps you could try to go for some of the variants above.
I was almost tempted by a double botton, step lapel, silk trimmed morning coat once.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

If I could wear morning dress daily, I'll probably have a few with some of the old features such as the step lapel, more than one button, etc. Given that I don't I prefer to stick to more formal patterns. I have two and they both are black PL but made with different cloth weight, etc.


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## Phileas Fogg (Oct 20, 2008)

Well I feel more or less the same. I have an oxford grey morning coat and a morning suit (well I do also have an inherited black frock coat which fits me rather nicley, but I does see very little use), but that is it. As I do wear both on a now and then basis I do not really need much else, even though I would like to wear morning coat more often and have a few more. 
Yours,

Phileas Fogg


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Though I don't get to wear morning dress all that often, when I do it's usually at weddings, where the guests are usually much the same group of people as the last so it's nice to have a bit of variation from one wedding to the next. I really want a morning coat and matching waistcoat with bound edging. I've already practiced adding it myself to a 'spare' morning coat so I know I can do it. I went with a fairly matte black cotton ribbon instead of grossgrain and it turned out really nicely - quite subtle looking, so I'll probably look to repeat that eventually.


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## empirebuilder (Jun 1, 2010)

Oh dear those three examples of black lounge on the Morning dress guide look delicious. I found it interesting that the people I showed the images thought it is more informal than a normal business suit, probably because the odd trousers. I'd definitely wear one myself even if the occasion isn't formal enough to require one. By the way, is it possible to find an off the rack coat with similar cut nowadays? (On a tight budget currently.)


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Stroller is considered as formal as any business suit by some. You can wear it every day. 

Actually any black lounge coat with striped (checked) trousers and other proper accessories makes a black lounge, but besom pockets and pointed lapels are more formal, so they are more practical when you are going to use the black lounge for semi-formal occasions. 

Best regards, Dr


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## empirebuilder (Jun 1, 2010)

Dr Kilroy said:


> Actually any black lounge coat with striped (checked) trousers and other proper accessories makes a black lounge


Indeed, and I've worn my black coat in that purpose, although the modern cut never seem to look right to me. I suppose I need to keep on looking for a vintage coat and waistcoat that fit my proportions.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

empirebuilder said:


> Indeed, and I've worn my black coat in that purpose, although the modern cut never seem to look right to me. I suppose I need to keep on looking for a vintage coat and waistcoat that fit my proportions.


Depending on proportions, I have no vested in highlighting this whatsoever:


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## Flip Richards (Mar 31, 2011)

Dr,

1. Yes good idea, especially if early rise. But:
is this your real photo? If so, congrats, and consider the Trad forum, WAYWT. It's a good look.



Dr Kilroy said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have got a few questions for you.
> 
> 1. What do you think about wearing bow ties with morning dress?


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Salieri said:


> Depending on proportions, I have no vested in highlighting this whatsoever:


 Och, I wish I had the money to justify on that... it would fit me perfectly with some minor tailoring.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Salieri said:


> Depending on proportions, I have no vested in highlighting this whatsoever:


If a black lounge coat SBPL in a 36R crops up, please contact me (via Farcebook) and give me first refusal as I really am desperate for one at the moment. Don't need trousers or waistcoats as I have enough already...


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## empirebuilder (Jun 1, 2010)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> If a black lounge coat SBPL in a 36R crops up, please contact me (via Farcebook) and give me first refusal as I really am desperate for one at the moment. Don't need trousers or waistcoats as I have enough already...


Let's make that two as I am after a 36R or S (if one even exists) also.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

I will of course bear both in mind. It's quite amazing how hard they are to come by considering they were once rather commonplace. I discovered a very nice french one masquerading as dinner jacket who's lapel facings yielded to some brave unpicking work. I suppose unlike morning coats and dinner jackets, once they fell out of use nobody had any reason to keep them, and if they do find their way on to the open market people don't really know what they are, so they might appear on ebay described as a tuxedo or a blazer or anything.

Aside from my heaven-sent Burton 'Oceanic Serge' black lounge jacket, I have another much older (cca 1900-1920 by my reckoning) one that is really awesome in many ways. Made in Germany (interestingly enough in a town that ceased to exist in the 30s under Hitler), it has some really nice features, like very ostentatious damask-covered buttons, and a very unusual lapel that has the continuous outline of a shawl collar, but actually isn't. I may sell it as, despite it being incredible, I feel it looks a little _too_ old fashioned and I'm unlikely ever to wear it. Yet another thing I must get photographed for the site at the very least.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Flip Richards said:


> Dr,
> 
> 1. Yes good idea, especially if early rise. But:
> is this your real photo? If so, congrats, and consider the Trad forum, WAYWT. It's a good look.


No, it is not me, that is Franklin Pangborn.  But to be precise, I look a bit similiar to him (this style is also very similar to mine). 

Best regards, Dr


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Bog said:


> The problem with this sort of thing, is that while it would be fine at a traditional sporting event where a blazer would be appropriate, it is much too unique to be attractive to the very people who attend such events, because among this set to stand out or be fashionable is not a quality to be desired.


I cannot imagine something showing up with a navy morning coat with brass buttons as a substitute for a blazer.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Such a morning coat would be perfect for some naval events.  Of course just substituting a mornining coat for a blazer (which would probably end like that: morning coat, chinos, shirt and no tie :0 ) is too little, accessories must be proper, too.

Also in my opinion this morning coat would be nice for some festive events which maybe would require something a bit more formal than a lounge suit/stroller.

Best regards, Dr


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Dr Kilroy said:


> Such a morning coat would be perfect for some naval events.  Of course just substituting a mornining coat for a blazer (which would probably end like that: morning coat, chinos, shirt and no tie :0 ) is too little, accessories must be proper, too.
> 
> Also in my opinion this morning coat would be nice for some festive events which maybe would require something a bit more formal than a lounge suit/stroller.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Perhaps I would be more convinced if I saw a photo. I just suspect that any coat with tails would draw too much unwanted attention.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

I have got no navy morning coats with gilt buttons at the moment, but when I will get one, I will surely send you a photograph. 

Best regards, Dr


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> If a black lounge coat SBPL in a 36R crops up, please contact me (via Farcebook) and give me first refusal as I really am desperate for one at the moment. Don't need trousers or waistcoats as I have enough already...


Charlie: I know the quality of the coat would not meet your standards but black lounge coats can be bought easily from Moss Bros and other establishments catering for the restaurant and hotel trade.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

culverwood said:


> Charlie: I know the quality of the coat would not meet your standards but black lounge coats can be bought easily from Moss Bros and other establishments catering for the restaurant and hotel trade.


You will be correct. The cloth would be too flimsy, narrow lapels, plastic linings, ill-fitting, etc.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> You will be correct. The cloth would be too flimsy, narrow lapels, plastic linings, ill-fitting, etc.


I generally agree with you, though before I managed to find a decent vintage one I stopped the gap with a surprisingly good ex-hire Hector James. The style was a bit lacklustre as you say but the cloth was a very passable thick all wool herringbone. Cost only £5 from ebay so not bad for just wearing to graduation.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

What about wearing trews with a morning suit for those of us who are Scottish?


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

If by morning suit you mean morning dress, that might be a nice look, but not very formal in my opinion. Formal Scottish morning dress is different. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Salieri said:


> I generally agree with you, though before I managed to find a decent vintage one I stopped the gap with a surprisingly good ex-hire Hector James. The style was a bit lacklustre as you say but the cloth was a very passable thick all wool herringbone. Cost only £5 from ebay so not bad for just wearing to graduation.


I already have a black lounge jacket that I currently use (from Slater Menswear and it was bought for my garduation) but it is diabolical and whenever I go to grab it off the rack, my hands just want to dart to the morning coat instead...



hockeyinsider said:


> What about wearing trews with a morning suit for those of us who are Scottish?


No, no, no. If you're Scottish there is the kilt or if you must wear trews then Lowland Dress. Trews with morning dress is mixed-bathing two different kinds of dress together. Black Tie Guide has a section on Scottish dress.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Took a couple of photos for eventual use on the blog today because the light was nice. Pleased with this one, though the pose is somewhat pretentious.










NB: The lawn mower has broken down and is being serviced. I am usually obsessive about lawn maintenance.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> No, no, no. If you're Scottish there is the kilt or if you must wear trews then Lowland Dress. Trews with morning dress is mixed-bathing two different kinds of dress together. Black Tie Guide has a section on Scottish dress.


I can't see one wearing a morning coat with a kilt. Trews would seem a sensible alternative.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

hockeyinsider said:


> I can't see one wearing a morning coat with a kilt. Trews would seem a sensible alternative.


I don't think it would be an absolute disaster, but it would probably overall look a bit unintentionally dickensian (CF: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...ustrated-History-of-Formal-Checkered-Trousers )


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Salieri said:


> I don't think it would be an absolute disaster, but it would probably overall look a bit unintentionally dickensian (CF: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...ustrated-History-of-Formal-Checkered-Trousers )


Not anymore than anyone would in morning dress, at least to most in society.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Salieri: Don't worry. Your garden is as well turned out as you are. Although, I know both you and Charlie are going to kill me, the spats are a little overkill.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

hockeyinsider said:


> I can't see one wearing a morning coat with a kilt. Trews would seem a sensible alternative.


I agree. From a historical, utilitarian standpoint, it wouldn't make much sense. My understanding is that the morning coat came about as an evolution away from the frock to allow for easier horseback riding in the mornings. Trews were used in the Highlands in place of the kilt for those riding on horseback. Mixing a kilt (not good for horseback) with a morning coat (designed for horseback) seems wrong.

Of course, none of this is utilitarian anymore, but you get my drift.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Well, it is, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wants to wear them for that!


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

hockeyinsider said:


> Not anymore than anyone would in morning dress, at least to most in society.


I've heard tell that morning dress is technically the appropriate attire for appearing at the bar of the United States Supreme Court, and that it is traditionally what the Solicitor General of the United States wears when so appearing. (Of course, now that POTUS has had the splendid idea of appointing a broad to that office, who knows what the S.G. is wearing at the moment.) Of course, I have no substantiation for this rumor whatsoever. Has anyone else?


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Titus_A said:


> I've heard tell that morning dress is technically the appropriate attire for appearing at the bar of the United States Supreme Court, and that it is traditionally what the Solicitor General of the United States wears when so appearing. (Of course, now that POTUS has had the splendid idea of appointing a broad to that office, who knows what the S.G. is wearing at the moment.) Of course, I have no substantiation for this rumor whatsoever. Has anyone else?


You are correct, sir. U.S. attorneys dress considerably more casual than their Anglosphere counterparts, especially when appearing before the high court. If I recall, the former solicitor general-turned-justice of the Supreme Court, Miss Kagan, had adapted the look for a woman, but I may be mistaken. I seem to recall a discussion on here about it. Regardless, here is what I turned up in a 30-second search on Google.



> https://www.slate.com/id/2208114/
> 
> Here's also hoping that she never dons that silly morning coat in the first place.
> 
> ...





> https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/18/us/morning-coat-striped-pants.html
> 
> The Solicitor General appears before the Court wearing a morning coat and striped pants. Most other lawyers wear ordinary business suits.


Apparently, Miss Kagan ended the tradition and my earlier comment stands corrected:



> Kagan appeared in a modern attire -- a dark suit and an open-necked sky-blue blouse -- ending the tradition that the government's top appellate lawyer, and everyone in the SG's office, wear a formal "morning coat" in appearances before the court.
> 
> Is it sexist to note the clothes of the country's first female solicitor general? No, it's historic, our colleague Robert Barnes reports.
> 
> ...





> https://abovethelaw.com/2009/09/solicitor-general-elena-kagan-what-color-was-her-pantsuit/
> 
> We'll focus on what really matters: What did Solicitor General Kagan wear on Wednesday? She eschewed the traditional morning coat, or some feminized version thereof, in favor of a pantsuit.
> And that's where the disagreement begins. Leading Supreme Court correspondents had different takes on its color. Tony Mauro of the Legal Times described it as "a businesslike black pantsuit with an open-collared white blouse." But Dahlia Lithwick of Slate described it as "a tasteful blue pantsuit."


And here's an interesting paper from the Yale Law School entitled "No Striped Pants and Morning Coat: The Solicitor General in the State and Lower Federal Courts":



> https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/fss_papers/1477/
> 
> Nothing captures the public imagination more, I suspect, than the thought of the Solicitor General standing up to argue before the Supreme Court in striped pants and morning coat, as tradition dictates.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Jovan said:


> I know both you and Charlie are going to kill me, the spats are a little overkill.


You're quite right. If I were going out I almost certainly wouldn't wear them, but I only bought them recently and thought they deserved at least some kind of outing.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

hockeyinsider said:


> I can't see one wearing a morning coat with a kilt. Trews would seem a sensible alternative.


You've all read me wrong. Kilt with the usual Scottish Prince Charlie jacket or whatever, not kilt with morning dress!


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Salieri: Don't worry. Your garden is as well turned out as you are. Although, I know both you and Charlie are going to kill me, the spats are a little overkill.


I would only wear spats depending on what event I go to. If it is vintagesque event then they might go on. However, at other times it would be plain oxfords or button boots.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

hockeyinsider said:


> Apparently, Miss Kagan ended the tradition and my earlier comment stands corrected.


Justice Kagan did not wear a morning coat when she was the Solicitor General - no surprise since it's a man's garment. But she did not end the tradition. The current Acting S.G., Neal Katyal, as well as his staff, continue to wear morning coats when they argue before the Court:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Nice illustration of SG Katyal. When I took a seminar from him in law school, his hair was much, much longer! A brilliant guy.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

> the former solicitor general-turned-justice of the Supreme Court, Miss Kagan,


Good Lord, I entirely forgot she had been appointed to the Court. How embarrassing. This is what happens when you go into private practice and don't follow SCOTUSblog anymore.

But thanks for the tips and information on the traditional dress in the SG's office.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> You've all read me wrong. Kilt with the usual Scottish Prince Charlie jacket or whatever, not kilt with morning dress!


Good man, If you don't mind me asking which tartans do you prefer?


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

Now I can't wait to get home and dig out my copy of So You're Going To Wear A Kilt to see if there is a Highland equivalent to morning dress.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Hanzo said:


> Now I can't wait to get home and dig out my copy of So You're Going To Wear A Kilt to see if there is a Highland equivalent to morning dress.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_dress#Scottish_Highland_dress


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> Good man, If you don't mind me asking which tartans do you prefer?


I believe they came up with an official Chinese tartan a while back:

https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails.aspx?ref=636

Thus if I were to wear tartan (highly unlikely unless I married/civil partnershiped someone Scottish) I would be entitled to wear this (at least for the Chinese side. IMHO, only Scottish-Chinese people are entitled to it if one wants to be anal about these things...)


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

Salieri said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_dress#Scottish_Highland_dress


Ah, thank you. It's unfortunate that Highland clothing doesn't make a distinction between formal day and evening wear.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> You've all read me wrong. Kilt with the usual Scottish Prince Charlie jacket or whatever, not kilt with morning dress!


I would disagree. I would suggest a morning coat and trews. The flashy buttons on Scottish jackets designed for wear with a kilt would, in my opinion, not work. I also don't think it would coordinate well with a waistcoat and tie.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I've got a few morning dress events that I am possibly attending. The nearest one is the Royal Wedding where there is a public street party in Vauxhall where some of my Chappist friends will be attending and they'll be expecting that we all would be wearing it. Then, there is the Oxford punting and since I will be in morning dress in London earlier in the day for a society talk, I will go to Oxford in it afterwards, naturally. Then in June (if I'm lucky enough to secure the balloted tickets), Trooping the Colour (aka Queen's Birthday Parade) where morning dress is _de rigueur_ as The Queen will be present.



hockeyinsider said:


> I would disagree. I would suggest a morning coat and trews. The flashy buttons on Scottish jackets designed for wear with a kilt would, in my opinion, not work. I also don't think it would coordinate well with a waistcoat and tie.


IMHO, it would look too busy. And I am still sticking with the convention that only Scottish/Welsh/Irish people should wear tartan that they are entitled to and these people already have their dress codes. An Englishmen in trews is like a tourist trying to pretend to be a Scotsman who doesn't know what the Artful Dodger or the Child Catcher looks like...


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Actually I have been thinking that I could do a pair of trews with morning dress, but only if i stuck to a tartan which I am entitled to which only uses a black, white and grey palette. Now Dark Island* is too black, Menzies would possibly work but I have no connection with this family, Grey Spirit* is boring, Maybe Grey Thistle Dubh* or Highland Granite*, but the best and one which is asciciated most closely with my family is Mourning stewart - but possibly a bit to funereal for a wedding - so it's on hold for now.

*Dark island
*
*Menzies* (it can be pronounced "Mingus" like the jazz musician).

*Grey spirit.
*








*Grey Thistle Dubh
*








*Highland Granite
*
*Mourning Stewart
*

*trade or corporate designs (fashion tartans) anyone can wear them but they are just like any other pattern - no story behind them.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

What do you think about matching your waistcoat to your trousers, especially when you are wearing checked trousers? There were surely some illustrations and photos, as I recall, but at the moment I cannot find them.

Best regards, Dr


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Hmmm, perhaps you could get away with something like the grey thistle dubh. I had always thought all that family entitlement stuff about tartan was made up and had no basis in history?


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Salieri said:


> Hmmm, perhaps you could get away with something like the grey thistle dubh. I had always thought all that family entitlement stuff about tartan was made up and had no basis in history?


Bit of made up (and a very little truth) but mostly in Victorian times (how long before something becomes a tradition). Anyone can wear whatever tartan they want of course nothing is set in law.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Well I'd certainly quite like to see how it turns out. I don't know much about trews but it seems on the whole they tend to be cut with quite a trim, tapered leg, which is another thing that might make you look a bit too victorian with a morning coat, but this may just be my preference for straight legs finding excuses.

Dr. Kilroy: I haven't seen many examples of this, with the exception of a couple of morning suits with cashmere striped waistcoats that I've seen on eBay recently. I can't say I'm a fan, but there may be a way to do it well. I can't really imagine a situation where I would want to make it work, though. I think generally any outfit where you have a matching waistcoat and trousers with odd jacket, the jacket should be more eye-catching for the sake of balance.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dr Kilroy said:


> What do you think about matching your waistcoat to your trousers, especially when you are wearing checked trousers? There were surely some illustrations and photos, as I recall, but at the moment I cannot find them.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Nay. I think it would look too much. You can have matching black coat and black waistcoat (not in any other colour; ignoring morning suit of course) but not waistcoat and trousers.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

I think it was done a lot in Victorian and possibly Edwardian eras.

Best regards, Dr


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Hanzo said:


> Ah, thank you. It's unfortunate that Highland clothing doesn't make a distinction between formal day and evening wear.


Sure it does.

Daywear: Argyll / Crail jacket, normal shirt, neck tie, high waistcoat, day wear sporran. I wear coloured hose and brogues.

Evening wear: Prince Charlie / Regulation doublet / Montrose etc, black tie shirt, bow tie, low waistcoat, evening wear sporran. I wear white, navy or tartan hose and ghillie brogues. I also often wear a Crail for black tie as I reckon it to be the equivalent of a dinner jacket and the PC the equivalent of tails (not the usual interpretation, I know).


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

DougNZ said:


> Daywear: Argyll / Crail jacket, normal shirt, neck tie, high waistcoat, day wear sporran. I wear coloured hose and brogues.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think this was considered formal.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dr Kilroy said:


> I think it was done a lot in Victorian and possibly Edwardian eras.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


TBH, you'll end up looking like the Artful Dodger, the Child Catcher or Noddy Holder from Slade if you match trouser and waistcoat. It would just overwhelm the ensemble with a sea of checks.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

All right, we will see how it will look. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Oh, are we talking matching checks or any matching fabrics? I'm scpetical about either anyway...

As a complete alternative, I went to a wedding a couple of years ago where the groom was scottish and in Prince Charlie jacket, kilt et al, and the best man was english and wore morning dress but with a waistcoat he'd had made in the same tartan. It looked pretty good actually and was especially passable on account of being in quite a subdued pattern.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> TBH, you'll end up looking like the Artful Dodger, the Child Catcher or *Noddy Holder from Slade* if you match trouser and waistcoat.


Wonderful reference!


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Taliesin said:


> Wonderful reference!


I rest my case...


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Hanzo said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think this was considered formal.


A correct version of Scottish National Dress at a wedding, for example, where others would be wearing morning dress is barathea Crail / Argyll with matching day waistcoat, silver / grey necktie, normal (business) shirt and daywear sporran. It is now common to wear a semi-dress sporran to such daywear events but purists frown on this in-between style. Hose, flashes (plain, matching tartan) and shoe styles (brogue, ghillie brogue, buckled, Alice) vary. I would go coloured / off white hose, tartan flashes and ghillie brogues.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Salieri said:


> I will of course bear both in mind. It's quite amazing how hard they are to come by considering they were once rather commonplace. I discovered a very nice french one masquerading as dinner jacket who's lapel facings yielded to some brave unpicking work. I suppose unlike morning coats and dinner jackets, once they fell out of use nobody had any reason to keep them, and if they do find their way on to the open market people don't really know what they are, so they might appear on ebay described as a tuxedo or a blazer or anything.
> 
> Aside from my heaven-sent Burton 'Oceanic Serge' black lounge jacket, I have another much older (cca 1900-1920 by my reckoning) one that is really awesome in many ways. Made in Germany (interestingly enough in a town that ceased to exist in the 30s under Hitler), it has some really nice features, like very ostentatious damask-covered buttons, and a very unusual lapel that has the continuous outline of a shawl collar, but actually isn't. I may sell it as, despite it being incredible, I feel it looks a little _too_ old fashioned and I'm unlikely ever to wear it. Yet another thing I must get photographed for the site at the very least.


Sorry to revive this dead post, but I've finally taken some pictures of the interesting Stresemann:


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

It is very nice! However, I think that four sleeve buttons would look better. 

By the way - what is your point on waistcoats with double-breasted jackets for stroller/black lounge? Required or preferred? Or maybe only acceptable?

Best regards, Dr


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Well, it's a bit of a grey area. I've not personally pondered the conundrum a lot myself as I don't really go in for DB jackets myself, and I'm selfish enough to prioritise problems that pertain directly to myself ^_^

That said, I'd say possibly preferred but not required. If you're talking weddings, then the chances are temperature is going to be a consideration given the sun-obsession of most brides. What I would say is that, if your waistcoat isn't visible under your coat when its buttoned up, then there's almost no point at all in wearing it.


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## Phileas Fogg (Oct 20, 2008)

When I order a DB suit I almost always ask for the waistcoat to be made (only one exception until now) and do always wear it, the same goes for strollers/Stresemans.

It has certainly somewhat to do that both my DB Strollers/Stresemans have a 4x1 buttoning and the waistcoat shows but also, and much more, with the facts that a. when I work at my desk I do remove the jacket (and a waistcoat is much better than lots of shirt) b. I stopped wearing a wristwatch (and never wore it very much anyway) decades ago and the waistcoat is a much better option for pocketwatches.

Lastly being a Stresemann more formal than a sports jacket I believe you should wear the waistcoat.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg


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