# Military uniforms



## Cruiser

As I mentioned in another thread, one of my jobs is to organize the Memorial Day wreath laying ceremony for my community. Last year some of the military participants wore what I guess one would call either the casual or business casual uniforms. This year I told them to leave the business casual at home and bring their finest. Since I had Army, Navy, and Air Force participating I told them that the 300 or so people attending would compare their appearance with their sister services. Nothing like a little competition. :icon_smile_big:

I just got some of the pictures back this week and here is a sampling of what I got. I'm sorry that the images are so small. I don't know how to make them larger.

So what do you think? Based on the comments I got from people over the next few days I think it's safe to say that the Navy won by a substantial margin and, quite frankly, that surprised me. Of course if the Marines had been there-----

https://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zz3vx2.gif

https://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zz2ve0.gif

https://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zz1jj3.gif

Cruiser


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## Acct2000

They all look pretty sharp. The bottom picture is navy. Which service is each of the two other pictures?


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## Beachcomber

They Navy always wins and not just in the United States. Paul Fussell has lots of interesting commentary on this subject in Uniforms.


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## eagle2250

Cruiser: I gotta tell ya...I'm convinced the Air Force swept the competition, hands down!


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## CPVS

Beachcomber said:


> They Navy always wins and not just in the United States. Paul Fussell has lots of interesting commentary on this subject in Uniforms.


I'll have to look that up -- navies are a major interest of mine.

Incidentally, some very informative stuff on naval uniforms can be found on the Navy's Bureau of Personnel (BuPers) website:

https://www.npc.navy.mil/CommandSupport/USNavyUniforms/

Also:

https://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/508/unireg/uregMenu.html

And especially:

https://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/508/unireg/Chapter3/uniformsMenu.htm


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## johnnyboomboombuck

*Ahhh, dress blues....*

After having worn my own set of Cracker Jacks (re-imagined in HK so that they fit better, and of course having the dragons sewn into the insides of my liberty cuffs and under my 'cape'), I must say that the squids looked ship shape! Were there any officers on board for the ceremonies?
Once I became a 'Mustang', I had the honor of wearing my Officer Blues as well, but nothing compares to the enlisted dress blues. They are simply distinctive, and certainly not everyones cuppa.
I agree, though. Had Uncle Sam's Misguided Children been present (I say that with all due respect, I might add), they would have made the Navy come in second....
Warmest regards,
-jbbb


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## Cruiser

johnnyboomboombuck said:


> Were there any officers on board for the ceremonies?


I spotted two Colonels in the crowd, one Air Force and one Army; but the only commissioned participant was an Army 2nd Lt. who came with the firing detail. He looked every bit of 16 years old. He told me he was on his way to Iraq in a few weeks.

I think I need to correct an omission of mine. When I posted pictures of the Army, Navy, and Air Force I suggested that these were all of the "uniformed" personnel in the program. To be fair I should also show the others.

https://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0031is8.gif

https://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0032uv2.gif

The Navy uniforms still win. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Fuzzypuppy

I love the military, but I do have to say that those uniforms are not "slim fit" in the least, are they?

That seems to be one of the bigger changes over the last twenty years - the BDUs and dress uniforms seem to get baggier and baggier.


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## Kav

Airdales have M 14s, grunts M 16s and the squids look like they're holding penicillin pills


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## Cruiser

Kav said:


> Airdales have M 14s, grunts M 16s and the squids look like they're holding penicillin pills


The Air Force had the M14 because they were the color guard and color guards usually use the M14 for ceremonial duty. For this purpose it looks much better than the M16. They were also the back up firing detail and they had M16s in the trunk of their car in the event they had been pressed into service for this duty.

The Army had the M16 because they were the firing detail only and the compact M16 is well suited for this duty.

The Navy had no weapons in the picture because they were the flag folding detail. They brought M14s with them as they were the color guard back up in the event of some unforeseen event that prevented the Air Force from getting there. As it was they weren't needed for this duty.

There were no shortage of rifles as everyone brought at least one, both 14's and 16's.

Cruiser


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## JibranK

Beachcomber said:


> They Navy always wins and not just in the United States. Paul Fussell has lots of interesting commentary on this subject in Uniforms.


That's generally pretty true. I'm probably going to join the Royal Navy University Training Corps next year; the ability to keep my beard and wear the uniform are major factors for me


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## AMVanquish

I may be in the minority here, but I have never found the navy jumper to be an attractive uniform. I do like the officer tunics with the shoulder boards very much, though.


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## Philip12

Like Cruiser says, if the Marines had been there... They have the nicest uniforms of the US armed forces IMHO, from their digital cammies to their dress uniforms.


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## Good Old Sledge

*Semper Fi*

I think that it was very sporting of us Former Marines to allow the other services a bit of lime light. As indicated, it really wouldn't have been much of a contest had the Marines landed...
Great pictures and good work, Cruiser.


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## Phinn

It's been a while since I wore a Navy uniform, but it appears that they are changing to what they call the "throwback" version of the service khaki for officers and CPOs. By "throwback" they mean "circa WWII."

https://www.new-navy-uniform.com/picture-khaki.html

I like the idea of going back to the use of a jacket for service uniforms, but I am not sure about this _particular_ jacket.

I also do not understand why they would not also bring back a jacket for use with the service winter blues.


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## The Louche

^ I like these navy throwbacks above - sharp but they need to show a smidge of cuff! I live in DC and see Military officers on the Metro (subway) all the time. Personally, I think the Army's day-to-day dress greens have the most potential. Problem is the sill "blouse" approach they take. Four button jackets? IMO, this isn't draft day. I know many of you military guys will crow about tradition and the blouse, but I just can't help but think they would look better if they simply used a more conventional button count/stance (and didn't button the bottom button!)...

Just my .02

Louche


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## CPVS

Ah, but would that present a particularly military appearance? Bear in mind, dear Louche, that civilian wear is derived from military and naval uniforms, and not the reverse.


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## Kav

My service spanned the changeover from crackerjack uniform with white porkpie flat hat to the present USCG blue jacket uniform. I went from people asking where my U boat was parked to people leaving their luggage with me at airports. I didn't mind so much as all 29,000 odd coasties had to struggle with new uniforms on ships designed to stow very tightly rolled woolens and cottons that could be shook out and quickly pressed if needed. I think it was true then commandant Admiral Chester R. Bender's wife thought seeing tshirts under the middie was gross and pushed for change. Ironic how we are finding solutions in old answers; khaki uniforms, .45 acp handguns and .30 caliber rifles. All thats lacking is welding some 55 gallon steel drums to Motorlifeboat bows to teach FNGs the tue power of the ocean.


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## PJC in NoVa

The Louche said:


> ^ I like these navy throwbacks above - sharp but they need to show a smidge of cuff! I live in DC and see Military officers on the Metro (subway) all the time. Personally, I think the Army's day-to-day dress greens have the most potential. Problem is the sill "blouse" approach they take. Four button jackets? IMO, this isn't draft day. I know many of you military guys will crow about tradition and the blouse, but I just can't help but think they would look better if they simply used a more conventional button count/stance (and didn't button the bottom button!)...
> 
> Just my .02
> 
> Louche


I must beg to differ. The Air Force wears a 3-button tunic, and IMO it looks a bit too "civilian" in cut.

FWIW, the Army is phasing out the green "pickle suit" and will be going over to a slightly dressed-down version of its traditional dress blues (the uni w/ the rank-bearing shoulder straps for officers, just like on Civil War unis) as its "everyday" class-A uniform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_Army_new_uniforms.jpg

My Dad was a squid, and the Navy color guard and chaplain at his Arlington funeral were an impressive sight in their summer dress whites. However, no one has unis like the Marines' dress blues.


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## marmer

*A quick survey of twentieth century service and dress uniforms, emphasizing the discontinued summer khakis and whites*

Now that it's summer, our fashion interest turns to lighter fabrics and colors. In the past century, that was certainly true for American military personnel in dress and non-combat working situations. With the advent of lighter wools and synthetics and a desire to reduce the number of required uniforms, many of the most beautiful uniforms from the WWII and Cold War periods went away by the mid-1970s. I thought it would be nice to see some of them and some of the other interesting details about past uniforms.
These pictures and the information I present come from a wide variety of sources, and I apologize in advance to any veterans who may catch me in errors. I have only the highest respect for our service members past and present and I offer thanks in advance for any corrections and comments that anyone can share. So, on with the show:

I assume that most people have a passing familiarity with the current Armed Forces uniforms. Pictures of them as well as the newest proposed changes may be found in the following Wikipedia articles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Navy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Service_Uniform

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Marine_Corps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Air_Force

The distinction between service and field uniforms was non-existent before about 1920. The soldiers, Marines, and airmen who fought World War I did so in high-collared tunics of heavy wool. Lighter cotton tunics were used in tropical areas, still with a high collar.
Navy officers wore a high-collared blue tunic in winter and the still-used white tunic (choker whites; think An Officer and a Gentleman.) With the birth of Naval aviation, those uniforms were very poorly suited to working around airplanes, and so the Navy adopted its first ever cotton-khaki uniform in June 1917:








As colder weather approached, the same uniform in Marine Corps "forestry green" wool was approved in September 1917.

By the early 1920s, the high-collared uniform looked increasingly dated and was universally disliked. All the services (Army, Navy, and Marine Corps; the Air Corps would be part of the Army until 1947) adopted a roll-collar jacket with a shirt and tie. This was of course modeled on the lounge suit which had become so common by that time, and many sources comment on how much more comfortable that uniform was. That uniform was the predecessor of the modern service and dress uniforms and still would be obviously recognizable to most people today. Just as with the WWI-era high-collar uniforms, in fall and winter, darker, heavier wools were used, in spring and summer, lighter cotton khaki were used. Although they were not used during World War II, every service had a white dress uniform, too.

Let's look at the Army first:

Here's General Eisenhower in the winter service uniform. Notice that he's wearing a khaki tie with the chocolate brown shirt. The dark shirt/light tie combination was very common with the Army during WWII, especially in the European Theater.








Here's General Doolittle in the same uniform, but with a lighter colored shirt, minimizing the shirt and tie contrast.








And here's General Eisenhower in the beautiful summer tan uniform receiving a medal from President Truman (notice his suit, too!) The summer tan uniform used a khaki shirt and tie and minimized contrast.








This is a close-up of Army Air Corps General Quesada in the same summer uniform.








By the 1950's, the Army had adopted a summer service uniform of lightweight tropical worsted wool or "Palm Beach" fabric. This gave a more refined appearance, and was a different color from the cotton khaki. The light colored tie changed to black, and the dark green cap used with the current Army green uniform was used. Here is a picture of General Gavin:









Here's a better picture, of General Westmoreland arriving in Saigon in 1965:








Summer tans were replaced by a lighter-weight dark green uniform in the mid-1970s.
The Army's Dress White uniform is shown here, worn by General Hugh Shelton at the Naval Academy graduation in 2000. 








The Army still has this uniform, though it will go away when the new Service Blue takes effect.

The Navy, too, had a rainbow of service uniforms. Officers at mid-century could count on having blue, white, and khaki uniforms, plus green if they were aviators and gray during WWII. Here's the beautiful service khaki, originally intended as a working uniform for aviators and submariners but adopted fleet-wide in 1941. Modeled by Admiral Halsey: 








Note that this uniform has hard shoulder boards for rank, and a black tie unlike the Army and Marine uniforms. Service Dress Khaki is coming back, and is in wear-testing right now. Here's current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen arriving to give a presentation in Germany on June 25, 2008: 








Notice the Navy captain in whites and the female Marine officer in greens in the background. Could that be Harm and Mac from JAG?
Admiral King, Chief of Naval Operations during WWII, certainly understood the need for a pocket square. This is the only picture of a pocket square worn with a Navy uniform that I have ever seen:








Admiral King, for whatever reason, hated khaki and thought that a gray version of the khaki uniform would be a better color for officers serving on "haze gray" ships. The gray uniform wasn't very popular and was discontinued in 1949, but here's a picture of Captain McCann wearing it: 









Aviators continued to be eligible to wear a green wool winter uniform of Marine Corps "forestry green," but with Navy details like the black tie and black rank braid on the sleeves. 









Even though it was primarily a working uniform and not usually worn off base, some officers wore the Aviation Green like a service uniform. No one was going to tell Admiral Halsey (right) what to wear! 









Although the Army has gone back and forth between black ties and khaki, the Navy has always used black ties on all uniforms and the Marine Corps has always used khaki, matching the khaki shirt.

Speaking of the Marine Corps, here is a great picture from 1942 showing the green winter and khaki summer service uniforms, as well as the Marines' dress choker whites. 








Marine service tunics have three buttons (instead of the Army and Air Force's four) and a self-belt, unlike the Navy's three-button service dress khaki. The khaki summer service uniform was replaced in the 1970s by either a lightweight version of the green uniform or the khaki shirt worn with either a tie or open collar. I really like these Marine summer uniforms, so here are a few more pictures.























The choker white was the summer alternative to the well known Marine dress blues, but was discontinued in the 1980s. This last uniform plate also shows the summer mess dress uniforms, which had similar counterparts as "white dinner jacket" style formal uniforms for all the services until their abolishment in recent years.
For a short time in the 1950s, Marines had a short cotton "Eisenhower" style jacket for summer use. 








Since seersucker is such a popular topic, I'll mention that Women Marines had a green and white seersucker uniform and WAVES had a gray and white seersucker uniform for summer wear. Sorry, but I can't find any really good pictures.

Off we go into the wild blue yonder. The Air Force became a separate branch of service in 1947 and quickly created its own distinctive uniforms. The blue service dress was augmented by a "khaki" summer variant called "silver tan," worn with a blue cap and blue tie. Silver tans were discontinued in 1965. 









Here's a portrait of General Vandenberg in silver tan: 









Here's another great picture, from an AFROTC uniform display:










From left to right, the uniforms are: WWI Army Air Corps, WWII Army "pinks and greens" (so called because of the contrast between the jacket and pants), Cold War-era working dark blues, silver tans, Ceremonial Blue, and Ceremonial White. The Ceremonial uniforms, discontinued in the 1990s, were used for dressy occasions where the service uniform was not formal enough and the mess dress uniforms were too formal. Sort of like the Army Blue and White uniforms, or the Navy or Marine dress blues and whites. Here's another picture of the Air Force version of summer mess dress. 









Well, that's about all the pictures I have. Most modern military work takes place in BDUs or fatigues, or in short-sleeve variants of these uniforms. I hope you have enjoyed this look back at the whites and summer tans of the last century.

A couple more really good sites with pictures of uniforms:

Marines: https://www.usmccollectibles.com/blouses&jackets.htm

Air Force: https://www.usafflagranks.com/

Navy: https://homepage1.nifty.com/TS/NDUN/index_e.htm (Japanese site, under construction)

Army: https://www.militaria-uniforms.com/


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif

Wow - that was a great post. Thank you Marmer.

All of those uniforms, except for the WWl drawing, look better than the OD Ike jackets that were the winter class 'A' uniform jacket when I was in the Army.

It will seem strange, at least to me, to see the Army wearing blue instead of green uniforms.

It sounds like the new uniforms will have a lot of gold braid, rather like a door man, and I think gold braid on the trouser leg for some enlisted ranks is overdoing it.

I hope the quality of the uniforms is better than what we were issued, frankly some of it was not very good. Of course some of the stuff we had were WWll leftovers.

In 1956 when I got out, we were still eating C rations from WWll. The thing that amazed me was that every can of C rats that I ever saw were all date stamped 1944. Actually, often when we had a choice such as when they were served for the evening meal, many of us would go to the PX or into town for a hamburger.

Please excuse me if I got too far off topic as I stagger down memory lane, Jim.


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## Cruiser

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> It will seem strange, at least to me, to see the Army wearing blue instead of green uniforms.


If you go back to the second picture in my original post you will see the Army enlisted dress blue uniform that has only been adopted within the last few years. The officer's uniform looked almost identical.

Cruiser


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## Observer57

*Well, you know the ol' saying...*

You want to win your "eff'n"' war...err... uniform contest? You give it to the Marines!


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif

Cruiser said:


> If you go back to the second picture in my original post you will see the Army enlisted dress blue uniform that has only been adopted within the last few years. The officer's uniform looked almost identical.
> 
> Cruiser


I don't care for it but as I don't wear it, that's okay. The gold bars on the sleeve which I assume indicate years of service in three year increments are really overpowering. By the time one reached the rank of E-7 or E-8, those stripes would about reach his stripes indicating rank.

Opps, that should his or hers. Despite the fact that we have had women in the service for a long time, it still seems strange to me that the services are gender integrated. I still think in terms of a battalion of WACs attached to a division of male soldiers. Guess I am really showing my age.

Well, at least they got rid of the berets. I thought they were fine when only the elite special forces wore them but everyone is special, no one is special.

So far I have only seen pictures of the blue uniform which I assume is the winter uniform. Does anyone know what the new summer uniform will be?

Cheers, Jim.


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## marmer

Jim,

I'm pretty sure the new Army Service Uniform blues will be a year-round uniform. It's 55/45 poly/wool, so the thought might be that it will be light enough for summer use. I've heard mention of a gray shirt for less formal situations and a white shirt for more formal situations, though I haven't seen a picture of the gray. Maybe some commands will allow removal of the jacket in super hot weather.

Observer57,

Ah, yes, the USMC Silent Drill Platoon! The blue/white dress uniform was primarily associated with them. Now, the blue/white is the summer dress uniform for all Marines, replacing the dress choker white.


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## 82-Greg

*Uniforms*

Of the current uniforms, USMC is by far the best--its also the most expensive clothing bag of the services. The Army's is the worst. The Navy is the most traditional. Regardless of the service, everyone hates wearing whites. Virtually impossible to keep clean.

I'm a civilian in DoD and dress code at the office is frequently expressed by military standards (Class A or equivalent). Class A is the coat w/long sleeve shirt underneath and tie. What burns my but though, is the military will tell the civilians to wear suits but have service people show up in short sleeve shirts (w/no tie, frequently wearing the light jacket) and consider it equivalent to a business suit.


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## Cruiser

82-Greg said:


> Regardless of the service, everyone hates wearing whites. Virtually impossible to keep clean.


You can say that again. I was a corpsman in the Navy and during the time that I worked in a hospital we were required to wear whites year round. Keeping a clean set of whites every day was difficult when you were living in a barracks and barely making $100 a month.

Later while working in a dispensary we were required to wear white uniforms when we had ambulance duty. Most of the guys would take off their uniform shirt when they came on duty and put on the old white smocks (ala Dr. Kildaire) to keep our shirts clean and re-wearable; however, the head honcho dictated that if the ambulance was going to leave the base we had to have on a white uniform shirt. He said that the smock wasn't "military" and civilians needed to see us in proper uniforms. I'm not sure how many civilians were paying attention to our uniforms at the scene of a traffic accident, but you do what you must.

Cruiser


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## Steve_C

Cruiser said:


> If you go back to the second picture in my original post you will see the Army enlisted dress blue uniform that has only been adopted within the last few years. The officer's uniform looked almost identical.
> 
> Cruiser


Cruiser, those uniforms have been in use for many decades.


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## Cruiser

Steve_C said:


> Cruiser, those uniforms have been in use for many decades.


Maybe I misunderstood the guys and perhaps they were talking about the new Army Service blue uniform that is coming out. It was pretty hectic at the time and besides, I was in the Navy. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Steve_C

Cruiser said:


> Maybe I misunderstood the guys and perhaps they were talking about the new Army Service blue uniform that is coming out. It was pretty hectic at the time and besides, I was in the Navy. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


Yes the new Army Service Uniform is popularly supposed to be a modified version of the current dress blue uniform.
Thanks for your service, Cruiser.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif

Thanks Marmer. One uniform for both summer and winter would lighten up ones duffel bag, but does not sound too practical for some (most?) climates. It will be interesting to see what the Army does.

Cheers, Jim.


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## marmer

Here's the first pic I've seen of the jacket-less versions of the Army Service Uniform and the gray shirt.










Army jackets, by the way, have had peak lapels since the introduction of the rolled collar. The other services' jackets have notch lapels. The new blue uniform, like the existing dress blues, continues this tradition. (although the proposed old-school AF service uniform, which was not adopted, had Army Air Corps-esque peak lapels.)

The reason that the Army went to the service greens in the early 50s is because there were so many trashed old WWII OD Ike jackets being worn by manual laborers and skid row bums. They wanted to disassociate themselves from that look.


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## Overtaker

Navy is the clear winner here. I've never been a fan of Army and Air Force Uniforms. The Department of the Navy has the best looking uniforms.



Kav said:


> Airdales have M 14s, grunts M 16s and the squids look like they're holding penicillin pills


Both the Air Force and Army are using M14s. The only difference is that the Army's M14s have magazines inserted. They aren't M16s; there is no pistol grip and the magazine isn't curved.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif

marmer said:


> The reason that the Army went to the service greens in the early 50s is because there were so many trashed old WWII OD Ike jackets being worn by manual laborers and skid row bums. They wanted to disassociate themselves from that look.


I think the color of the greens is much better than OD, and the Ike jacket did not fit too many of us all that well. I much prefer the look of the long jacket.

It looks like the Army has a different idea of the proper length for sleeves than most of us here do.

If any of you are currently in the Army, I don't mean to insult your new uniform, but that gold stripe on the trousers really doesn't do much for me and it seems strange that it is only for certain ranks - E4 and above I think.

Looks like you were right about the summer uniform - just take your coat off. :icon_smile: Well, I guess that is practical.

It looks like maybe the baret is going to be reserved again for special forces, although when I was in the Army I think anyone jump qualified wore bloused boots with their Class A uniform. Anyone know what the current practice is?

I was stationed at Ft. Bragg home of the 82nd Airborne for awhile. Rather busy orthopedic ward there.

OT: My orthopedic Doc worked at Ft. Benning home of the 101st Airborne as a civilian Doc when he first started practicing. He said that is where he learned to fix broken feet.

Cheers, Jim.


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## tslinc

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> It looks like maybe the baret is going to be reserved again for special forces, although when I was in the Army I think anyone jump qualified wore bloused boots with their Class A uniform. Anyone know what the current practice is?


I think current regs say that soldiers (whether or not jump qualified) in airborne units blouse their boots. Soldiers (whether or not jump qualified) not in non-airborne units do not blouse their boots. It does not seem likely that this practice will continue when the Army shifts to the new ASU.

I believe that the berets will continue unchanged: green (SF tabbed soldiers in SOF units, tan (Ranger units), maroon (airborne units), and black (everybody else).


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## JAGMAJ

tslinc said:


> I think current regs say that soldiers (whether or not jump qualified) in airborne units blouse their boots. Soldiers (whether or not jump qualified) not in non-airborne units do not blouse their boots. It does not seem likely that this practice will continue when the Army shifts to the new ASU.
> 
> I believe that the berets will continue unchanged: green (SF tabbed soldiers in SOF units, tan (Ranger units), maroon (airborne units), and black (everybody else).


Your understanding of the regulation is the same as mine, although in practice, non-airborne qualified soldiers don't normally blouse their boots even when assigned to an airborne unit.

As for berets, I'm hoping that these get phased out over the next few years. Once you take away the special meaning behind having a beret, it really is a poor choice of headgear. It has no brim, is hot, and takes two hands to put on properly. Also, it looks funny on women who have more hair.


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## globetrotter

by tradition, are there "events" assosiated with US military uniform rules? in the IDF, there are specific "tasks" that are assosiated with various dress options - red boots are worn by people in the airborn units, or who have done jump school. I guess what you would call "blouced" boots are allowed only to people who have done a certain lenght of forced march. the shoulder tag is only allowed to people who have done another speciic length forced march, and the colored beret is only given after a certain length of forced march. your unit pin is only given after a certain amount of training has been finished.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif

tslinc said:


> I think current regs say that soldiers (whether or not jump qualified) in airborne units blouse their boots. Soldiers (whether or not jump qualified) not in non-airborne units do not blouse their boots. It does not seem likely that this practice will continue when the Army shifts to the new ASU.
> 
> I believe that the berets will continue unchanged: green (SF tabbed soldiers in SOF units, tan (Ranger units), maroon (airborne units), and black (everybody else).


Oh, that is a bit different then the way we did it. In my day, anyone who wore boots bloused their trousers, except for those in the stockade - something I had no direct experience with. :icon_smile:

With dress uniforms, the airborne wore bloused boots and the rest of us wore shoes which the Army called 'low quarters', some of the kids from farm country called 'slippers', and which I called shoes. They were of rather poor quality with thin soles. The rep from Alden told me that E.T. Wright made them at one time. Now that company no longer manufactures in the U.S. and just sells products made offshore.

At least the elite units have their own color. I did not know that.

Cheers, Jim.


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## tslinc

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> Oh, that is a bit different then the way we did it. In my day, anyone who wore boots bloused their trousers, except for those in the stockade - something I had no direct experience with. :icon_smile:
> 
> With dress uniforms, the airborne wore bloused boots and the rest of us wore shoes which the Army called 'low quarters', some of the kids from farm country called 'slippers', and which I called shoes .


Jim,
I think we're on the same sheet of music. Everyone blouses the pants of their ACUs (formerly BDUs). Only in Class A or Class B do soldiers in airborne units blouse their boots.



JAGMAJ said:


> Your understanding of the regulation is the same as mine, although in practice, non-airborne qualified soldiers don't normally blouse their boots even when assigned to an airborne unit.


JAGMAJ,
My experience is that the non-jump qualified soldiers I've served with in airborne units do blouse their boots. But, the Army is a big place, isn't it?

Airborne!


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif

JAGMAJ said:


> Your understanding of the regulation is the same as mine, although in practice, non-airborne qualified soldiers don't normally blouse their boots even when assigned to an airborne unit.
> 
> As for berets, I'm hoping that these get phased out over the next few years. Once you take away the special meaning behind having a beret, it really is a poor choice of headgear. It has no brim, is hot, and takes two hands to put on properly. Also, it looks funny on women who have more hair.


I have talked to a friend of mine who was in the Marine Corps a few years before I was in the Army about the lack of special meaning. The other disadvantages that you mentioned did not occur to either of us - probably because neither of us have ever worn a beret.

When my pal was in the Corps, they returned worn uniforms to the Quatermaster for an exchange for a new item - a practice that I believe the other services shared. By the time I was in the Army, after 3 or 4 months (I forget which) our pay went from $68 to $72 and the additional four bucks a month was a clothing allowance - we were responsible for mainting our own uniforms.

This thread is interesting to me because for a long time I have not paid attention to what the Army is doing. Opps, I mean with respect to uniforms and customs.

Some things have changed a lot, but I guess the whole world has changed a lot.

I think this is a good place to thank all of the members of the miltary services for their service to our country. Your service and sacrifices are very much appreciated!

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## Cruiser

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> I have talked to a friend of mine who was in the Marine Corps a few years before I was in the Army about the lack of special meaning.


The Marine Corps is notorious for not wanting any kind of adornment of any kind associated with their uniforms. That's why you see no unit patches on Marine Corps uniforms. They want them to all look alike. In fact, there are some in the Corps who don't even like the aviators (they don't call them pilots) wearing their aviator wings or jump qualified Marines wearing jump wings.

I was in a Marine Corps Air Wing Group that was composed of fighter squadrons. The Sgt. Major in one of the squadrons was an infantryman who had never been in an aviation unit and the first day on the job he went ballistic because none of the Marines had their utility pants bloused like all good Marines were supposed to do. It took an intervention by the Skipper (Lt. Col.) to make the Sgt. Major understand that they were wearing standard issue safety shoes (as required in Naval Aviation) instead of combat boots and because they were cut much lower it wasn't possible to blouse the trousers over the boots.

He finally accepted it but never did like it. It only got worse though as not long after that the squadron deployed on an aircraft carrier and the squadron personnel who worked on the flight deck were required to wear brightly colored jerseys to identify their jobs. This was almost more than the Sgt. Major could take. Imagine a U.S. Marine in uniform wearing a bright yellow or purple sweatshirt. :icon_smile_big:

https://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzaw7.jpg

Cruiser


----------



## Jim In Sunny So Calif

tslinc said:


> Jim,
> I think we're on the same sheet of music. Everyone blouses the pants of their ACUs (formerly BDUs). Only in Class A or Class B do soldiers in airborne units blouse their boots.


Oh, thanks, yes we are - I just didn't realize it. It is a good thing we are not talking about anything complicated or I might get really confused. :icon_smile:

I guess 'fatigues' became BDU's after they started using camouflage material although there might have been other changes.

What is the difference between BDU's (I know what the initials stand for) and ACU's (I don't know what they stand for)?

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## Jim In Sunny So Calif

Cruiser, you just reminded me why I am happy, despite the better looking uniforms, that I have no reason to say Semper Fi. The Army and the Corps did have one thing in common; they both served the same thing for the Sunday evening meal - coldcuts, for which there were some not very polite names. Oh, and they both occasionally served creamed beef on toast for breakfast - same thing about an unpolite name.

I can't think of anything clothing related to add - oh, yeah, I am glad we, except for the cooks, did not have white uniforms - sounds like a lot of laundry.

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## JAGMAJ

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> I have talked to a friend of mine who was in the Marine Corps a few years before I was in the Army about the lack of special meaning. The other disadvantages that you mentioned did not occur to either of us - probably because neither of us have ever worn a beret.
> 
> When my pal was in the Corps, they returned worn uniforms to the Quatermaster for an exchange for a new item - a practice that I believe the other services shared. By the time I was in the Army, after 3 or 4 months (I forget which) our pay went from $68 to $72 and the additional four bucks a month was a clothing allowance - we were responsible for mainting our own uniforms.
> 
> This thread is interesting to me because for a long time I have not paid attention to what the Army is doing. Opps, I mean with respect to uniforms and customs.
> 
> Some things have changed a lot, but I guess the whole world has changed a lot.


Before berets became universal, I took pride in wearing a maroon beret as an airborne-qualified soldier in an airborne unit. The prestige factor outweighed the inconvenience. Now, that everybody has berets, unless the beret is of a color denoting a special status, there is no prestige in the basic beret and they are still a pain. Having to put down anything I'm carrying in order to put on my beret whenever I go outside is annoying.

Things have, indeed, changed a lot in the Army. Now, we're not even allowed to starch our uniforms or wear boots that need to be shined.


----------



## DukeGrad

*Berets*

Gentlemen

I have always disagreed with the all Army black beret myself. This is the Ranger beret IMO.
To complete Ranger school, and serve with a ranger unit takes quite a bit.
I am not ranger qualified. I earned my flash with the special forces and served with the 10th group in old Ft Devans, and then with the 82nd for some time. These units deserve the same. Those here will agree about pride, esprit-de-corps. What have you.
No insult to Rangers my friends. Any body that can go without food for several weeks and stay wet, miserable and everything else, deserves the beret!

When I was in, we had the khaki uniform. All airborne qualified, bloused, when in an Airborne Unit. The legs did not. I mean NAPs.
LOL
Again, all about bearing, esprit-de-corps.

Nice day my friends


----------



## Jim In Sunny So Calif

JAGMAJ said:


> Things have, indeed, changed a lot in the Army. Now, we're not even allowed to starch our uniforms or wear boots that need to be shined.


That sounds strange to me. Very few people had a job that required wearing class A/B uniforms (I never did)and most of us had our laundry done by the laundries run by civilians on the post. I don't think there was an extra charge for starch and fatigues sure looked a lot better starched. A lot of us who were thin, as I was at the time, had our fatigue shirts tapered by the same establishments. As issued they were cut at least as full as an old BB OBCD.

One of the few times I wore a uniform off base was when I had a 30 day leave and flew home from Alabama because the airlines at that time gave a discount to service members in uniform.

The only time we did not polish our boots, or at least not much, was during a three month period when 100,000 of us had the largest maneuvers since WW ll in the state of Louisiana. I expect it took a long time to settle all the claims for the damage we did - especially the tanks and other heavy equipment.

Some commands rather obsessed about shiny boots. Once at Benning they had a contest for shiny boots which they checked with a photo light meter and the winner got a three day pass and his method of spit shine was published in the post newsletter.

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## DukeGrad

*SOS*

Sunny

It was called s h it on a s hi ngle.
LOL


----------



## DukeGrad

*The Best SOS*

Gentlemen

Where was the best SOS you had. Mine was at RAF Skullthorpe, England.
I was with the 10th group then. We were on combined NATO training exercise called Flintlock. I got to stay at Skullthorpe.
And my friends, the best SOS I have had.
The AF took care of their people. This is true to this date!

Nice day


----------



## Laxplayer

Phinn said:


> It's been a while since I wore a Navy uniform, but it appears that they are changing to what they call the "throwback" version of the service khaki for officers and CPOs. By "throwback" they mean "circa WWII."
> 
> https://www.new-navy-uniform.com/picture-khaki.html
> 
> I like the idea of going back to the use of a jacket for service uniforms, but I am not sure about this _particular_ jacket.
> 
> I also do not understand why they would not also bring back a jacket for use with the service winter blues.


Those look sharp.


----------



## Literide

Phinn said:


> It's been a while since I wore a Navy uniform, but it appears that they are changing to what they call the "throwback" version of the service khaki for officers and CPOs. By "throwback" they mean "circa WWII."
> 
> https://www.new-navy-uniform.com/picture-khaki.html
> 
> I like the idea of going back to the use of a jacket for service uniforms, but I am not sure about this _particular_ jacket.
> 
> I also do not understand why they would not also bring back a jacket for use with the service winter blues.


Interesting. Is the retro khaki replacing other officer uniforms (such as white choker) or being added back in the lineup as a working uniform? Will they still have the short sleeve shirt version?
Looks like enlisted are either going grey/blue like the army or tan/green like the marines. Either would be a tragedy, not very naval looking. I think they tried doing away with the popeye suits in the early 80s but it didnt last long, why again?

Seems all the services are killing white uniforms. I see the impracticality, but for ceremonial and formal occasions, nothing beats them. Army wearing dress blues all the time kind of takes the allure away from the blue uniform.


----------



## eagle2250

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> Cruiser, you just reminded me why I am happy, despite the better looking uniforms, that I have no reason to say Semper Fi. The Army and the Corps did have one thing in common; they both served the same thing for the Sunday evening meal - coldcuts, for which there were some not very polite names. Oh, and they both occasionally served creamed beef on toast for breakfast - same thing about an unpolite name.
> 
> Cheers, Jim.


I'll agree with the assessment regarding the cold cuts but, must disagree on the (presumed) assessment of creamed beef on toast. Paraphrasing Rachael Ray, "now that's a 30 minute meal that is absolutely Yum-mo!" Though I don't get to enjoy "SOS" much these days...a serving pretty eats up my calorie allocation for the entire day!


----------



## Victor123

I actually prefer the airforce in those pics.


----------



## Cruiser

eagle2250 said:


> must disagree on the (presumed) assessment of creamed beef on toast. Paraphrasing Rachael Ray, "now that's a 30 minute meal that is absolutely Yum-mo!" Though I don't get to enjoy "SOS" much these days...a serving pretty eats up my calorie allocation for the entire day!


I pulled a short tour on an aircraft carrier back in '69 and while SOS was certainly on the breakfast menu on a regular basis, the meal item I most remember was some sort of "beefaroni" that was served almost every night at "mid-rats", that meal that was served in the middle of the night for the night crew.

There were only two work shifts at sea, 7:00 am to 7:00 pm and 7:00 pm to 7:00 am. So if you worked nights, as I did, you got that beef and macroni concoction almost every night. SOS was much better than that stuff. For that matter so were the C rations that I ate when I was attached to the Marines.

Cruiser


----------



## McKay

marmer said:


> Army jackets, by the way, have had peak lapels since the introduction of the rolled collar. The other services' jackets have notch lapels.


Does the USN not have peak lapels on its blue jackets?


----------



## JAGMAJ

Literide said:


> Army wearing dress blues all the time kind of takes the allure away from the blue uniform.


No doubt. I love the dress blues, but it won't be the same wearing a version of it as a Class A uniform. I do wish that the Army dress blues had the higher collar, though, like the Marine dress uniform.


----------



## Desk Jockey

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> That sounds strange to me...
> 
> Some commands rather obsessed about shiny boots.


Sure they look pretty but with starched sleeves & trou you light up like a Christmas tree on an IR scope... or so I've heard. As well, the ACUs (Army Combat Uniform) are non-iron and starching them would destroy the cloth.

Mind you they said nearly the same things about the now departed BDUs.

The thing about not shining the boots is that they're an easy-care rough out rather than full grain and so can't be shined. And why did the Army start wearing suede? 'Cause the Marines were doing it.


----------



## Jim In Sunny So Calif

Creamed chipped (I forgot the 'chipped' part in my earlier post) beef on toast was not so bad, but I would have preferred it for some meal other than breakfast.

I feel sorry for Cruiser if he dined on something worse then C rations, although some of the meat dishes were worse than others. The strange thing to me was that every can of C rats I ever saw was date stamped on the bottom 1944 - never any other year. Either the machine that dated the cans got stuck or they made one heck of a lot of these in 1944.:icon_smile:

If I remember right, the C was the meat dish and the B was a can with things like cocoa, hard carckers, jam, etc. But the combination of the two cans was always called C rations.

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## Jim In Sunny So Calif

DukeGrad said:


> Gentlemen
> 
> Where was the best SOS you had. Mine was at RAF Skullthorpe, England.
> I was with the 10th group then. We were on combined NATO training exercise called Flintlock. I got to stay at Skullthorpe.
> And my friends, the best SOS I have had.
> The AF took care of their people. This is true to this date!
> 
> Nice day


I went to fixed wing aircraft mechanics school at a small AFB in San Marcos, TX which I expect is long gone. The food there was far better than I ever had at an Army base and I was stationed at about seven of them. If one wanted seconds on food or milk - no problem. And the cooks were friendly - not always the case in the Army.

I had a friend from grammer school who was about two months out of basic training who was stationed about 50 miles away at Lackland AFB who I visted a couple of times and the food there was very good too.

He had a nice two man room, while the Army still used WW ll baracks with no interior walls, bare light bulbs, a three foot runner of linoleum down the center aisle, and all the accommodations of the latrine were in one room. It was certainly adequate for those of us who only served for a few years, but an E-7 with 20 years in the service who lived on base lived in the same barracks.

At that time E-7 was the highest enlisted rank with First Sergeant and Sergeant Major being job descriptions. I have no idea when the services added the ranks of E-8 and E-9 and the two additional ranks for Warrant Officers.

Back to clothing: I don't think too many people wear aware of the Green Berets until Nam. I was only because I was stationed at Bragg for awhile which I guess is home for the snake eaters.

At that time it seems to me that the 82nd wore a patch on their for and aft caps indicating Airborne although I might be confused.

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## marmer

McKay said:


> Does the USN not have peak lapels on its blue jackets?


You are correct, sir. As with many double-breasted jackets, the Service Dress Blue blouse has peak lapels. I had been talking about the green, AF blue, and khaki three-and-four button roll-collar tunics and forgot about the Navy one because it is so unique. So:

Army blue and green: peak lapels
Navy blue: double-breasted, peak lapels
Navy white: high collar
Navy khaki and aviation green: single breasted, notch lapels
Marine green: single breasted, notch lapels, belted
Air Force blue: single breasted, notch lapels

Obsolete:
Army white: peak lapels
Marine khaki: notch lapels, belted
Marine white: high collar
Air Force silver tan and white: notch lapels


----------



## marmer

Literide said:


> Interesting. Is the retro khaki replacing other officer uniforms (such as white choker) or being added back in the lineup as a working uniform? Will they still have the short sleeve shirt version?
> Looks like enlisted are either going grey/blue like the army or tan/green like the marines. Either would be a tragedy, not very naval looking. I think they tried doing away with the popeye suits in the early 80s but it didnt last long, why again?
> 
> Seems all the services are killing white uniforms. I see the impracticality, but for ceremonial and formal occasions, nothing beats them. Army wearing dress blues all the time kind of takes the allure away from the blue uniform.


I believe it is intended as a summer analogue to Service Dress Blue, and will not replace any existing uniforms. There was a concern, apparently, that with the Summer White short-sleeved uniform as the dressiest summer uniform (except for choker whites) the Navy officers looked out of place in inter-service activities where other officers were wearing Class A's or equivalent. See photo:










Also, a lot of old-school Navy personnel thought the dress khakis looked sharp and were very comfortable, as coat and tie goes.


----------



## LoneSuitinDTW

Observer57 said:


> You want to win your "eff'n"' war...err... uniform contest? You give it to the Marines!


AGREED!!


----------



## Literide

marmer said:


> I believe it is intended as a summer analogue to Service Dress Blue, and will not replace any existing uniforms. There was a concern, apparently, that with the Summer White short-sleeved uniform as the dressiest summer uniform (except for choker whites) the Navy officers looked out of place in inter-service activities where other officers were wearing Class A's or equivalent. See photo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, a lot of old-school Navy personnel thought the dress khakis looked sharp and were very comfortable, as coat and tie goes.


I see your point. The navy needs a business like warm weather alternative.


----------



## Grayson

Given the typical precision of military tailoring, why in the world would the male officer above have his sleeves extend to his knuckles? The jacket seems a bit on the baggy side as well, and unless I'm incorrect... it's also too long for his torso.

His female counterpart seems well-tailored and trimly fitted, so the oversight mystifies me.


----------



## JAGMAJ

Grayson said:


> Given the typical precision of military tailoring, why in the world would the male officer above have his sleeves that long? His female counterpart seems well-tailored, so the oversight mystifies me.


I was wondering if anybody else thought that. His entire jacket seems to be too big, given the military's preference for more tapered jackets.


----------



## Jim In Sunny So Calif

I think it would be a good looking uniform if it came anywhere close to fitting properly. It is really way off.

Earlier in the thread someone kindly posted a preview of the Army's new uniforms and I thought the sleeves were too long on them too. If someone has the time, they might scroll back and see if I am right or wrong.

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## JAGMAJ

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> I think it would be a good looking uniform if it came anywhere close to fitting properly. It is really way off.
> 
> Earlier in the thread someone kindly posted a preview of the Army's new uniforms and I thought the sleeves were too long on them too. If someone has the time, they might scroll back and see if I am right or wrong.
> 
> Cheers, Jim.


Part of the problem is that they don't generally like to show any shirt cuff in military uniforms. I usually buck this trend myself and show a bit of cuff in my Class As, but when I recently had my official photograph taken, the photographer suggested that I fold my shirt cuff back to avoid showing any at all. I'm not sure where this practice started and whether it was intentional or just the result of poorly fitting unforms.


----------



## Cruiser

I noticed that in his press conferences the past few days, Adm. Mullen (JCS Chairman) has been wearing what I suppose is the Navy's new uniform.
https://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxns4.jpg

It seems funny calling it new as the Navy had this uniform back in the 60's when I was in. Here it is being worn by a young Lt. Cdr. John McCain.

https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxhu8.jpg

Cruiser


----------



## marmer

Yes, also CNO ADM Roughead, MCPON Campa, and some other officers.


----------



## a tailor

*airborne*

i was surprised to see how many on AA are ex airborne. i was in the 82nd 504pir myself. that was when gavin was still div.co. 
remember this?
stand up
hookup
move up tight
stand in the door 
one step forward 
at attention chin down 
fump 
boy is it ever quiet up here.

it was a great time for me. we were rich with $50 a month extra hazard pay. great until my chute tangled with another and we both came down on one twisted chute. i ended with 3 multi compression fractured vertebra. 3 months in a body cast. plenty of troopers in the hospital for company.

the 82nd was awarded the maroon beret in ww2 by the British high command.


----------



## Cruiser

a tailor said:


> i was surprised to see how many on AA are ex airborne. i was in the 82nd 504pir myself.


Thank you for your service, Alex.
Cruiser


----------



## Jim In Sunny So Calif

JAGMAJ said:


> Part of the problem is that they don't generally like to show any shirt cuff in military uniforms. I usually buck this trend myself and show a bit of cuff in my Class As, but when I recently had my official photograph taken, the photographer suggested that I fold my shirt cuff back to avoid showing any at all. I'm not sure where this practice started and whether it was intentional or just the result of poorly fitting unforms.


Not show much cuff - heck, it looks like they do not like to show much hand. :icon_smile:

Hey, Cruiser, I think this thread that you started is a lot more fun and informative then the one we got involved in about auto racing.

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## Jim In Sunny So Calif

Gee, there are a lot of ex-airborne here. My last posting was at Bragg, but I didn't even jump out of bed in the morning. I do have a lot of respect for you chaps who jumped out of airplanes though.

Alex, that sounds like a pretty tough deal, but I guess it could have been worse.

Cheers, Jim.


----------



## a tailor

yes i got off easy. during airborne school our class "b13" had one instructor and one student killed, also a couple of injured. 
i was a medic in on the job training so when i got it my buddies were there to carry me off to be with the pretty nurses.


----------



## Garfield

Grayson said:


> Given the typical precision of military tailoring, why in the world would the male officer above have his sleeves extend to his knuckles? The jacket seems a bit on the baggy side as well, and unless I'm incorrect... it's also too long for his torso.
> 
> His female counterpart seems well-tailored and trimly fitted, so the oversight mystifies me.


Well, at least he isn't wearing black shoes! :icon_smile_big:


----------



## a tailor

Cruiser said:


> You can say that again. I was a corpsman in the Navy and during the time that I worked in a hospital we were required to wear whites year round. Keeping a clean set of whites every day was difficult when you were living in a barracks and barely making $100 a month.
> 
> Later while working in a dispensary we were required to wear white uniforms when we had ambulance duty. Most of the guys would take off their uniform shirt when they came on duty and put on the old white smocks (ala Dr. Kildaire) to keep our shirts clean and re-wearable; however, the head honcho dictated that if the ambulance was going to leave the base we had to have on a white uniform shirt. He said that the smock wasn't "military" and civilians needed to see us in proper uniforms. I'm not sure how many civilians were paying attention to our uniforms at the scene of a traffic accident, but you do what you must.
> 
> Cruiser


i was a corpsman, 82 airborne till i crushed 3 lumbars. bad landing. 
couldnt go back airborne so they had me work the post hospital. 
i was mostly on the night shift. that was 12 on 12 off 365 days a year. with an occasional 3 day pass. but we never had to stand barracks inspection. and our whites were furnished.

i have made a few navy broadfall uniform trousers for the people in the constitution organization. one was a white pair. that regulation white cotton sure is not summer weight.


----------



## phyrpowr

Desk Jockey said:


> Sure they look pretty but with starched sleeves & trou you light up like a Christmas tree on an IR scope... or so I've heard. As well, the ACUs (Army Combat Uniform) are non-iron and starching them would destroy the cloth.
> 
> Mind you they said nearly the same things about the now departed BDUs.
> 
> The thing about not shining the boots is that they're an easy-care rough out rather than full grain and so can't be shined. And why did the Army start wearing suede? 'Cause the Marines were doing it.


Never in the service, but _re _boots:

Probably not suede (split grain) but full grain "roughout" leather. These started becoming popular when I began backpacking in the '60s, advantage being the more waterproof side was inside, less liable to cutting from rocks etc., and the "underside", more abrasion resistant, faced the elements.

Having known a few retired sr. non-coms, and a couple of West Point grads, I can well believe that this change bugged the hell out of a lot of people who valued a shine over efficiency and durability.


----------



## Hanzo

Fuzzypuppy said:


> I love the military, but I do have to say that those uniforms are not "slim fit" in the least, are they?


The Marine Corps' uniforms are, especcially the Dress Blues. They are officially titled as "form fitting". The Service uniforms are also definitely tailored.



marmer said:


> Marine service tunics have three buttons (instead of the Army and Air Force's four) and a self-belt, unlike the Navy's three-button service dress khaki.


Technically, the Marine Service blouse is a four button, but the forth button is hidden by the waistbelt.


----------



## Cruiser

Hanzo said:


> Technically, the Marine Service blouse is a four button, but the forth button is hidden by the waistbelt.


As a Navy Corpsman assigned to the Marine Corps I was required to wear a Marine Corps uniform. Here is the only item I still have from that uniform. The belt is gone but you can see the buttonhole for the fourth button which, by the way, is a small plastic button unlike the other three. The belt would have covered it from view.










Cruiser


----------



## Chouan

Observer57 said:


> You want to win your "eff'n"' war...err... uniform contest? You give it to the Marines!


No. I'd suggest the Coldstreams, or the Lifeguards.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...p.jpg/400px-Ceremony.lifeguard.london.arp.jpg

Or the King's Troop, RHA.

The Garde Republicaine, and the Carabinieri are quite smart too!

https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/at...t-pursuit-italy-carabinieri_dress_uniform.jpg


----------



## Corcovado

Chouan said:


> No. I'd suggest the Coldstreams, or the Lifeguards.
> Or the King's Troop, RHA.
> 
> The Garde Republicaine, and the Carabinieri are quite smart too!


While the British, French and Italians have some fine uniforms, I have to say that I find your examples a bit over the top. The Royal Marines look smart here though:


----------



## Chouan

Corcovado said:


> While the British, French and Italians have some fine uniforms, I have to say that I find your examples a bit over the top. The Royal Marines look smart here though:


Over the top? In what way? The challenge seemed to have been 
"You want to win your "eff'n"' war...err... uniform contest? " I merely chose examples that would beat them in the uniform contest. The RN uniform is quite good too.....
https://www.ukstudentlife.com/Ideas/Album/LordMayorsShow/Navy.jpg
https://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2008/news/080609/prince_william2240.jpg

Still, it's good to see that the USMC are still copying the appearance of the booties, at least in parade dress.


----------



## Hanzo

Corcovado said:


> While the British, French and Italians have some fine uniforms, I have to say that I find your examples a bit over the top. The Royal Marines look smart here though:


And some damn fine fighting men as well.


----------



## Corcovado

Chouan said:


> Over the top? In what way?












The above uniform brings to mind the following passage from Paul Fusser's book _Uniforms: Why We Are What We Wear_:
"The Italian uniform situation differs from the German in several ways. For one thing, some of its features are more retrograde and sentimental, less suggestive of any New Order. Certain uniforms point back to the very early twentieth century and even to the nineteenth. Glory instead of efficiency is the presiding subtext. Consider, for example, the archaism practiced by the regiment called the Bersagliere. Its men wear steel helmets, all right, but attached to each is a large, bouncy bunch of feathers, which may appear as a token of physical vanity, outweighing even threats to life itself."​While the bouncy feather plume is literally over the top, I would say that this uniform is over the top in the figurative sense:

It is obviously a ceremonial uniform, and as such it has artistic license to be over the top. That the uniform is spectacular is unquestionable. That it is over-the-top is self-evident.



> The challenge seemed to have been "You want to win your "eff'n"' war...err... uniform contest? " I merely chose examples that would beat them in the uniform contest. The RN uniform is quite good too.....
> 
> Still, it's good to see that the USMC are still copying the appearance of the booties, at least in parade dress.


"Winning the contest," which by the way I took to be an intra-U.S. matter in the first place, does not necessarily mean having the gaudiest, most spectacular (dare I say ridiculous?) uniforms. You are certainly welcome to argue that, to _your_ tastes, this or that uniform is better, and I'm equally entitled to my own tastes. Finally, I agree that the USMC's dress blues share much in appearance with the Royal Marines'. They are both very tasteful, handsome uniforms, and I have little doubt that the similarity is a reflection of the positive British influence on American culture.


----------



## Hanzo

I don't know the full history of the transistion of the US Marine's uniform and how it relates to our brothers over the pond. The original uniforms were green, worn with a high leather collar (Leathernecks). The blouse was changed to blue to reflect naval traditions in 1798, the trousers were changed to blue in 1841. The red "bloodstripe" for NCOs and officers was added in 1847 after the battle of Chapultepec (Halls of Montezuma).

I don't know the history of the British Royal Marines' uniforms, so I couldn't speak to what was being copied by whom and when or whether it was coincidence. 

The important thing is, we look good. :icon_smile_big:


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## Corcovado

In general, I find that Navy and Marine uniforms consistently hit the right note. Naval dress whites, whether worn by Americans, Japanese, or whoever, look incredible. Navy khakis a la WWII strike a great balance between function, form, good looks and understatement. One uniform that I particularly admire, and I confess I don't know the correct name for it, is the olive dress uniform such as worn by Kevin Bacon in courtroom scenes in the film "A Few Good Men."


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## Hanzo

Corcovado said:


> In general, I find that Navy and Marine uniforms consistently hit the right note. Naval dress whites, whether worn by Americans, Japanese, or whoever, look incredible. Navy khakis a la WWII strike a great balance between function, form, good looks and understatement. One uniform that I particularly admire, and I confess I don't know the correct name for it, is the olive dress uniform such as worn by Kevin Bacon in courtroom scenes in the film "A Few Good Men."


That is the Marine Service uniform. He is wearing the Class A uniform, but there are A, B & C.

Green trousers, tan shirt, either short or long sleeve, long sleeve has a tan tie and an optional coat.


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## Chouan

Corcovado said:


> The above uniform brings to mind the following passage from Paul Fusser's book _Uniforms: Why We Are What We Wear_:"The Italian uniform situation differs from the German in several ways. For one thing, some of its features are more retrograde and sentimental, less suggestive of any New Order. Certain uniforms point back to the very early twentieth century and even to the nineteenth. Glory instead of efficiency is the presiding subtext. Consider, for example, the archaism practiced by the regiment called the Bersagliere. Its men wear steel helmets, all right, but attached to each is a large, bouncy bunch of feathers, which may appear as a token of physical vanity, outweighing even threats to life itself."​While the bouncy feather plume is literally over the top, I would say that this uniform is over the top in the figurative sense:
> 
> It is obviously a ceremonial uniform, and as such it has artistic license to be over the top. That the uniform is spectacular is unquestionable. That it is over-the-top is self-evident.
> 
> "Winning the contest," which by the way I took to be an intra-U.S. matter in the first place, does not necessarily mean having the gaudiest, most spectacular (dare I say ridiculous?) uniforms. You are certainly welcome to argue that, to _your_ tastes, this or that uniform is better, and I'm equally entitled to my own tastes. Finally, I agree that the USMC's dress blues share much in appearance with the Royal Marines'. They are both very tasteful, handsome uniforms, and I have little doubt that the similarity is a reflection of the positive British influence on American culture.


The Carabinieri wore a version of that uniform, in khaki drab, in both world wars, including the bicorne. Of course we have our own taste, but although these are ceremonial uniforms, they're also versions of uniforms that were worn in battle.

By the way. there was nothing anywhere in the thread that said that it is an exclusively American thread; if it is, I'll get my coat.....


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## Corcovado

Chouan said:


> The Carabinieri wore a version of that uniform, in khaki drab, in both world wars, including the bicorne. Of course we have our own taste, but although these are ceremonial uniforms, they're also versions of uniforms that were worn in battle.
> 
> By the way. there was nothing anywhere in the thread that said that it is an exclusively American thread; if it is, I'll get my coat.....


I am not writing from an exclusionary point of view, which would be rude in general and especially inappropriate in this thread since I was not the OP. However, this thread began with Cruiser's description of a Memorial Day ceremony in the U.S.:



Cruiser said:


> As I mentioned in another thread, one of my jobs is to organize the Memorial Day wreath laying ceremony for my community. Last year some of the military participants wore what I guess one would call either the casual or business casual uniforms. This year I told them to leave the business casual at home and bring their finest. Since I had Army, Navy, and Air Force participating I told them that the 300 or so people attending would compare their appearance with their sister services. Nothing like a little competition. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> So what do you think? Based on the comments I got from people over the next few days I think it's safe to say that the Navy won by a substantial margin and, quite frankly, that surprised me. Of course if the Marines had been there-----


Clearly, Cruiser was speaking of a friendly rivalry among U.S. armed services members (who had reason to be present at the Memorial Day service). Citizens of other countries and other armed forces have fine uniforms and need not feel slighted while eavesdropping on what began at least as an American, intramural contest. I would add that, as a civilian, I take my hat off to all servicemen and women. Cheers.


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## Cruiser

Corcovado said:


> "Winning the contest," which by the way I took to be an intra-U.S. matter in the first place, does not necessarily mean having the gaudiest, most spectacular (dare I say ridiculous?) uniforms.


While I agree that some of the European uniforms can be a little gaudy or over the top, that is a cultural thing and certainly not for me to judge. I prefer the much simpler and understated U.S. dress uniforms.

Having said that, in 1971 I served in a U.S. Marine Corps aviation squadron that had, in addition to the U.S. Marines, several Royal Navy and Royal Air Force pilots in it's ranks, along with U.S. Navy and Air Force pilots. The Brits were helping with the training of U.S. pilots who were flying Harrier jump jets. It was truly a multi-cultural squadron. By the mere fact that I don't remember anything outstanding one way or the other in the day to day uniforms of the Brits tells me that they must have been as understated as the American's were.

As an aside, one day I answered the telephone in the Dispensary where I worked and it was one of the British officers. He identified himself as Flight Leader such and such, or something like that, and for some reason I asked him what rank that was. He paused and then said, "Why? Are you trying to decide how polite or helpful you are required to be to me?" And then he started laughing. I found the British aviators to have a much better sense of humor than I had imagined they would have. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## PJC in NoVa

Corcovado said:


> Naval dress whites, whether worn by Americans, Japanese, or whoever, look incredible.


Is it not the case that we can thank the British Royal Navy for this? All around the world, naval uniforms (at least in their incarnations as "blues" and "whites") are patterned after the uniform of the RN. Indeed, is not dark blue known as "navy" blue because the Senior Service chose it as its predominant uniform color? (I recall reading somewhere that the British Army wound up being known as "redcoats" because Parliament found that red dye was the most economical to buy at the time, after the English Civil War, when it was organizing and equipping the formations that became the basis of the modern British Army.)

My father's funeral at Arlington took place in the summertime, and the chaplain and honor guard in naval dress whites made a fitting display indeed for his obsequies. Our whole family felt very, well, honored to have them there as a token of his service.

Speaking of Kevin Bacon as a Marine, btw, in the recent HBO film "Taking Chance" (great movie), there is a scene where his character, Lt. Col. Mike Strobl, emotionally refuses to remove his uniform tunic while going through an airport screening point. Strobl was escorting home to Wyoming the remains of a young Marine killed in Iraq, and told the screeners that he would not "denigrate this uniform" by removing his tunic while actively engaged in this solemn escort duty, no matter what the consequences.


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## Hanzo

Speaking of guady uniforms, when I was stationed at 52 area at Camp Pendleton, we had a lot of representatives coming through to observe our training methods. The general rule of thumb was to salute the shiny s**t. Problem is, there were some WEIRD uniforms out there. Some enlisted personnel in cammies with more brass hanging off their chest than an Indian flea market.


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## Cruiser

Hanzo said:


> Speaking of guady uniforms, when I was stationed at 52 area at Camp Pendleton, we had a lot of representatives coming through to observe our training methods. The general rule of thumb was to salute the shiny s**t. Problem is, there were some WEIRD uniforms out there. Some enlisted personnel in cammies with more brass hanging off their chest than an Indian flea market.


OK, I have another story. When I was attending Navy Corpsman school at Balboa Naval Hospital there were Vietnamese Navy personnel training there also. Every morning when my friends and I would enter the front door of the hospital to go eat breakfast there would be a Vietnamese Sailor standing outside. He had all sorts of gold on his uniform not to mention shoulder boards with gold stripes like a U.S. Navy officer.

As we would approach him he always turned to face us; therefore, we rendered hand salutes and said "Good morning, Sir." Every morning he would smile and return our salutes. And then we found out that he was a Second Class Petty Officer (E-5).

One of the guys was so mad that he wanted to kick the guys butt the next day, but the rest of us concluded that he would probably be the one to get his butt kicked if he attempted that so we talked him out of it. Uniforms can be misleading. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser

oops, I just realized that I already told this story a couple of years ago. My bad.


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## The Swede

Looking for sombre and understated? Give the Swiss Guard a call:


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## PJC in NoVa

Hanzo said:


> I don't know the full history of the transistion of the US Marine's uniform and how it relates to our brothers over the pond. The original uniforms were green, worn with a high leather collar (Leathernecks).


The Italian Carabinieri guard appears to be wearing a type of stock (that's what I've heard the USMC's original "high leather collar" described as) under the stand collar of his tunic.

These are definitely clothing items that presuppose an upright, alert posture on the part of the wearer--military bearing is the watchword.

On the DVD extras to the excellent Ioann Gryffud "Hornblower" series that was done a few years back, some of the actors talk about what it was like to wear the Napoleonic-era military uniforms required for the production (evidently these were reproduced with great care and a lot of historical research by the costume staff for the show).

One of the actors (I think it was the guy who played the British major in "The Wrong War") said that the uniforms do "wear you," in a way. You have to sit up straight and stand straight in them; it's virtually impossible to slouch. And the huge headgear (he had to wear a massive tricorne, IIRC) had a role in making the wearer look larger and more imposing, and also easy to spot--both effects that I suppose would be heightened when the wearer was on horseback.

These uniforms certainly look theatrical and a bit "over the top" today, but there's no doubt that at one time even some of their more outlandish elements had a basis in combat effectiveness.

I still recall with amusement how frightened one of my nephews became when we met a "Hessian grenadier" at a local Revolutionary War reenactment. Counting his thick-soled hobnail shoes and hammered-brass "mitre cap," the man was close to 7 feet tall, and had an enormous moustache to go with his enormous musket. He scared the bejeebers out of my nephew, and I could well imagine how scary a whole mass of such fellows, coming at you with bayonets fixed, could have been during "the real deal."


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## WouldaShoulda

Cruiser said:


> As an aside, one day I answered the telephone in the Dispensary where I worked and it was one of the British officers. He identified himself as Flight Leader such and such, or something like that, and for some reason I asked him what rank that was. He paused and then said, "Why? Are you trying to decide how polite or helpful you are required to be to me?" And then he started laughing. I found the British aviators to have a much better sense of humor than I had imagined they would have. :icon_smile:
> 
> Cruiser


"What kind of a suit do you call that, fella??"


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## Hanzo

PJC in NoVa said:


> The Italian Carabinieri guard appears to be wearing a type of stock (that's what I've heard the USMC's original "high leather collar" described as) under the stand collar of his tunic.
> 
> These are definitely clothing items that presuppose an upright, alert posture on the part of the wearer--military bearing is the watchword.
> 
> On the DVD extras to the excellent Ioann Gryffud "Hornblower" series that was done a few years back, some of the actors talk about what it was like to wear the Napoleonic-era military uniforms required for the production (evidently these were reproduced with great care and a lot of historical research by the costume staff for the show).
> 
> One of the actors (I think it was the guy who played the British major in "The Wrong War") said that the uniforms do "wear you," in a way. You have to sit up straight and stand straight in them; it's virtually impossible to slouch. And the huge headgear (he had to wear a massive tricorne, IIRC) had a role in making the wearer look larger and more imposing, and also easy to spot--both effects that I suppose would be heightened when the wearer was on horseback.
> 
> These uniforms certainly look theatrical and a bit "over the top" today, but there's no doubt that at one time even some of their more outlandish elements had a basis in combat effectiveness.
> 
> I still recall with amusement how frightened one of my nephews became when we met a "Hessian grenadier" at a local Revolutionary War reenactment. Counting his thick-soled hobnail shoes and hammered-brass "mitre cap," the man was close to 7 feet tall, and had an enormous moustache to go with his enormous musket. He scared the bejeebers out of my nephew, and I could well imagine how scary a whole mass of such fellows, coming at you with bayonets fixed, could have been during "the real deal."


For the Marines of old, the leather neck collar was a form of armor, used to protect the throat from sword cuts. While I sure it did make you stand up straight (the modern dress blues certainly due) it originated for a practical purpose in combat.


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## PJC in NoVa

Hanzo said:


> For the Marines of old, the leather neck collar was a form of armor, used to protect the throat from sword cuts. While I sure it did make you stand up straight (the modern dress blues certainly due) it originated for a practical purpose in combat.


I've heard that epaulets had the same original function, as do the large crests on the morion helmets worn by the Swiss guard. A helmet crest makes the wearer look taller, and it serves to help ward off blows as well as making the helmet structurally stronger and harder to cave in, in somewhat the same way that a keel reinforces a ship.

A reenactor once told me that shoulder straps such as those on Civil War Federal uniforms (or the current officers' blues) represent a stylized adaptation of the underpinnings for epaulets. (I haven't been able to verify if that's true.) They were the undress insignia, to be worn in field situations where epaulets would have been considered impractical. In the old Navy (U.S. and Royal alike), you didn't get to sport two epaulets until you were a captain. Less senior officers had to make do with one (there's a good bit about this in one of the Jack Aubrey novels).


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## Kurt N

PJC in NoVa said:


> In the old Navy (U.S. and Royal alike), you didn't get to sport two epaulets until you were a captain. Less senior officers had to make do with one (there's a good bit about this in one of the Jack Aubrey novels).


Another organization of more recent, but less savory, vintage had single epaulets even for very high-ranking officers, at least in some versions of the uniform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_and_insignia_of_the_Schutzstaffel


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## Chouan

Hanzo said:


> For the Marines of old, the leather neck collar was a form of armor, used to protect the throat from sword cuts. While I sure it did make you stand up straight (the modern dress blues certainly due) it originated for a practical purpose in combat.


The stock was worn by most soldiers in the 18th century, and it was worn solely to keep their heads up straight. On RN ships, only the Marines wore them, hence their RN nickname as bootnecks, shortened to booties.


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## Chouan

PJC in NoVa said:


> I've heard that epaulets had the same original function, as do the large crests on the morion helmets worn by the Swiss guard. A helmet crest makes the wearer look taller, and it serves to help ward off blows as well as making the helmet structurally stronger and harder to cave in, in somewhat the same way that a keel reinforces a ship.
> 
> A reenactor once told me that shoulder straps such as those on Civil War Federal uniforms (or the current officers' blues) represent a stylized adaptation of the underpinnings for epaulets. (I haven't been able to verify if that's true.) They were the undress insignia, to be worn in field situations where epaulets would have been considered impractical.quote]
> 
> Exactly right. RN officers only wore epaulettes on the full dress frock coats, which are no longer worn, and have cuff stripes to show rank on their normal uniform jackets. The strap you are referring to is indeed the vestige of the strip of material that held the epaulette in place. They are called _*passants,*_ and were increasingly used as a rank badge in itself.
> 
> Epaulettes were originally cloth, often ribbons, used as a means of keeping a cross-strap in place, and only much later, 1770's, became a badge of rank, and then only in some armies. In the Hapsburg army, for example, only Uhlan Officers had epaulettes.


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## IlliniFlyer

In case anyone is interested, the Navy just approved the Service Dress Khaki uniform. Will it reduce the number of uniforms in the officer/chief seabag? Nope!


Here's a link to a higher res:


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## PJC in NoVa

Chouan said:


> RN officers only wore epaulettes on the full dress frock coats, which are no longer worn, and have cuff stripes to show rank on their normal uniform jackets. The strap you are referring to is indeed the vestige of the strip of material that held the epaulette in place. They are called _*passants,*_ and were increasingly used as a rank badge in itself.


There was a time in the RN when the dress uniform included both epaulettes and cuff stripes (along with an ornamental cuff treatment featuring what appear to be for-show-only buttons). Here is Capt. Robert Falcon Scott of the Antarctic sporting the rig:

To illustrate the _passants, _here is Charles de Gaulle in his highest military rank as a _general de brigade_ (brigadier is a two-star rank in the French Army), topped by a very fancy _kepi:_


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## Harry Flashman

Well here's a few of my uniforms :

Barrack Dress - pretty much obsolete (but I've kept it as I'm an old timer now  ) a slightly smarter 'working' uniform.










Modern Summer Working Dress










Officer (left) and NCO Mess Dress of the Royal Artillery (each unit has it's own distinctive Mess Dress)










For example - Duke of Wellington's Regiment Officer Mess Dress (now disbanded)










Light Infantry Officer (now disbanded) and Adjutant General's Corps Ladies Kit










Various Dress uniforms from different Regiments and Corps




























Royal Artillery Officer No.1 Dress










Some historic ones from around 1815

Life Guards










Royal Artillery










Coldstream Guards


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## Earl of Ormonde

Welcome aboard Harry. You must have done at least the full 22, were you RA all your service? Or are you still serving?

You're with the ACF now?

ex-RAF Regiment and ex-Met Police.
Now Swedish MoD

James


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## WouldaShoulda

Those were all excellent!!

Except maybe the leopard snuggie!! :crazy:


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## eagle2250

A very impressive pictorial review. Thank you for sharing your photos Harry Flashman and, while I am from across the pond, thank you also for your long and distinguished service!


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## GrumF14

I really like the wool olive uniforms-- reminds me of the US Army/AAF of WWII. Classic look.


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## PJC in NoVa

_There is a word you often see, pronounce it as you may--
"You bike,""you bykwee," "ubbikwe"--alludin' to R.A.
It serves 'Orse, Field, an' Garrison as motto for a crest;_
_An' when you've found out all it means I'll tell you 'alf the rest._
_--_Rudyard Kipling

PS: It's good to see that at least one element of the British armed forces (see the soldier in the beret, between the two officers with peaked caps and walking sticks) is still using the Sam Browne belt--a very sharp piece of old-school military kit. What unit is that, exactly?


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## sjghr

Lt Flashman - what an exquisite moustache you have. Definitely Army issue...

Both from a few years ago now:


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## Cruiser

OK, now that we've got all of these fancy schmancy uniforms that hardly anyone wears out of the way, let's look at what military men actually wear. Me at Camp LeJeune NC in 1969. Please direct your attention away from the scuffed boots and toward those sharp creases. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:










Cruiser


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## Kurt N

WouldaShoulda said:


> Except maybe the leopard snuggie!!


He's a drummer. From the current version of the Wikipedia article "Corps of Drums":

In some regiments, it has become custom for the percussion rank to wear leopard skins over their uniform. This has the dual purpose of protecting the uniform (cymbals have to be muffled against the chest, and therefore would leave vertical marks on a bare tunic) and protecting the instruments themselves (the bass drum can be scratched by uniform buttons). Modern "leopard skins" are made from synthetic fur. Other regiments opt for a simple leather or cloth apron.

Learn something new every day....


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## BearBear

Garfield said:


> Well, at least he isn't wearing black shoes! :icon_smile_big:


Unless things have changed in the last two years since I left the submarine service, brown shoes are for aviators and black for most everyone else in the Navy. However, brown were authorized to be worn by others...but really only aviators wore them.


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## Earl of Ormonde

Cruiser said:


> OK, now that we've got all of these fancy schmancy uniforms that hardly anyone wears out of the way, let's look at what military men actually wear. Me at Camp LeJeune NC in 1969. Please direct your attention away from the scuffed boots and toward those sharp creases. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cruiser


Creases in combats?  what kind of namby pamby outfit were you in? :icon_smile_wink::icon_smile_big:


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## BearBear

BearBear said:


> Unless things have changed in the last two years since I left the submarine service, brown shoes are for aviators and black for most everyone else in the Navy. However, brown were authorized to be worn by others...but really only aviators wore them.


US Navy (for clarification)


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## eagle2250

Cruiser said:


> OK, now that we've got all of these fancy schmancy uniforms that hardly anyone wears out of the way, let's look at what military men actually wear. Me at Camp LeJeune NC in 1969. Please direct your attention away from the scuffed boots and toward those sharp creases. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cruiser





Earl of Ormonde said:


> Creases in combats?  what kind of namby pamby outfit were you in? :icon_smile_wink::icon_smile_big:


Well, it was back in the 1960's then and that's the way it was done (creased fatigues in garrison). Quoting the Title of Lt General Hal Moore's book, "We were soldiers (Note: some of us were Airmen!) then...and young!" However, even considering our youth (LOL), Cruiser, those boots look terrible (for wear in garrison). Why, I wouldn't wear those, even with a pair of blue jeans! :devil:


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## digby_snaffles

Harry Flashman

In regard to Barrack Dress I heard that it's making a return? It's certainly a much smarter working uniform.

Also for those that are interested;

*Royal Regiment of Scotland Dress
*

*The Rifles Dress*

*Household Cavalry Dress (unofficial)
*https://www.householdcavalry.info/uniforms.htm


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## Cruiser

eagle2250 said:


> Cruiser, those boots look terrible (for wear in garrison. Why, I wouldn't wear those, even with a pair of blue jeans! :devil:


Neither would I so let me defend myself. Certainly you realize that the USMC wouldn't tolerate boots that looked like that either. I had just come in from several days in the field and the uniform, despite the heavily starched creases, is also quite dirty. I was on my way in to shower and change clothes when the picture was taken.

Cruiser


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## Earl of Ormonde

Cruiser said:


> Neither would I so let me defend myself. Certainly you realize that the USMC wouldn't tolerate boots that looked like that either. I had just come in from several days in the field and the uniform, despite the heavily starched creases, is also quite dirty. I was on my way in to shower and change clothes when the picture was taken.
> 
> Cruiser


But why are you posing by two ambulances, were you a corpsman?


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## eagle2250

Cruiser said:


> Neither would I so let me defend myself. Certainly you realize that the USMC wouldn't tolerate boots that looked like that either. I had just come in from several days in the field and the uniform, despite the heavily starched creases, is also quite dirty. I was on my way in to shower and change clothes when the picture was taken.
> 
> Cruiser


Just a bit of good natured teasing, Cruiser. We have to try to keep you humble, ya know?


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## Cruiser

eagle2250 said:


> Just a bit of good natured teasing, Cruiser. We have to try to keep you humble, ya know?


I took it as such. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Hanzo

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Creases in combats?  what kind of namby pamby outfit were you in? :icon_smile_wink::icon_smile_big:


Hey, there's nothing that says you can't look good while killing people.


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## Kurt N

Hanzo said:


> Hey, there's nothing that says you can't look good while killing people.


I have not read Juenger's _Storm of Steel_ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_of_Steel), but I understand it contains at one point a description of the author and his orderly scrabbling about a shell crater in the middle of a battle, looking for a medal that had come off the officer's uniform. At some point, looking good does become a hindrance!


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## WouldaShoulda

Cruiser said:


> OK, now that we've got all of these fancy schmancy uniforms that hardly anyone wears out of the way, let's look at what military men actually wear. Me at Camp LeJeune NC in 1969. Please direct your attention away from the scuffed boots and toward those sharp creases. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cruiser


WOW!!

Those jeeps don't look up-armored at all.

Don't you know you could get hurt if someone shot at you or if you ran over a bomb?? 

Those "pickle suits" were the worst!!


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## eagle2250

Cruiser said:


> Neither would I so let me defend myself. Certainly you realize that the USMC wouldn't tolerate boots that looked like that either. I had just come in from several days in the field and the uniform, despite the heavily starched creases, is also quite dirty. I was on my way in to shower and change clothes when the picture was taken.
> 
> Cruiser


I know it's rude to do so but, I just have to ask; what kind of starch were you using on those fatigues, for a crease to be standing that tall after several days in the field? That's some great stuff! :thumbs-up:


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## Earl of Ormonde

PJC in NoVa said:


> is still using the Sam Browne belt--a very sharp piece of old-school military kit.


Ah, a Sam Browne belt fetsh hey? :icon_smile_wink: Well here you go then, I've posted this photo of myself before in another thread. This is a Sam Brown belt from the Irish Army, more exactly as issued to one of my uncles in the 38th Infantry Battalion. Me wearing it, last year, on a VCP somewhere in Europe :icon_smile_wink:


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## cmacey

Cruiser said:


> OK, now that we've got all of these fancy schmancy uniforms that hardly anyone wears out of the way, let's look at what military men actually wear. Me at Camp LeJeune NC in 1969. Please direct your attention away from the scuffed boots and toward those sharp creases. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cruiser


Almost looks like LZ Bluebird...


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## JAGMAJ

Cruiser said:


> I had just come in from several days in the field and the uniform, despite the heavily starched creases, is also quite dirty. I was on my way in to shower and change clothes when the picture was taken.
> 
> Cruiser


My Army infantry days were in the 90s, but then, we typically had two sets of uniforms. Our garrison BDUs were starched very heavily with sharp creases, but the ones we wore in the field weren't starched at all. Similarly, you pretty much never put anything in the flap pockets of the garrison BDUs (they were basically starched shut), but in the field, your pockets would often be bursting at the seams with stuff.


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## Cruiser

cmacey said:


> Almost looks like LZ Bluebird...


Montford Point.



eagle2250 said:


> I just have to ask; what kind of starch were you using on those fatigues, for a crease to be standing that tall after several days in the field? That's some great stuff!


Whatever they used at the base laundry. Those things came back so heavily starched that the pants would literally stand on their own. I was amazed at how much force it took just to push your legs into them because it was almost like they were glued shut. The USMC apparently believed in starch to the max. My uniform was much more wrinkled and messy looking than it appears in that old black and white picture.

By the way they were called "utilities," not fatigues. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## 127.72 MHz

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Ah, a Sam Browne belt fetsh hey? :icon_smile_wink: Well here you go then, I've posted this photo of myself before in another thread. This is a Sam Brown belt from the Irish Army, more exactly as issued to one of my uncles in the 38th Infantry Battalion. Me wearing it, last year, on a VCP somewhere in Europe :icon_smile_wink:


While you wear the uniform well Earl, I like your L1A1!!:aportnoy:

I'm a big FAL/L1A1 fan. Did you ever use the "SUIT" optics? I have two SUIT's as reconditioned by the UK MOD. Very handy keeping in mind how old they are now. The SUIT makes post 400 meter shooting almost a breeze.

Great picture.


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## Earl of Ormonde

127.72 MHz said:


> I like your L1A1!!:aportnoy:
> 
> I'm a big FAL/L1A1 fan.
> 
> Great picture.


Thanks!

And...but....wow!!! I hadn't noticed that before! "What?" I hear you say! 
Well, from the parts of the rifle you can see it certainly does look like the corresponding parts on an SLR (L1A1). And the SLR was what I used in my military days, I also loved it. Accurate, beautiful handling, easy to clean and maintain. But the British version was single shot only with a 20 mag, unlike some of the FN-Fal automatic versions.

Would you be surprised then if I told you that is an AK47? 
You can just see the curved magazine & look closely & you'll see the pressed plate of the top cover. And absence of the SLR's foldable and adjustable rear sight at the back...and the AK's "mid" sight just in front of the top cover.

That said, some of us used to use 30 round curved mags from the old 
converted Bren LMGs, so seeing a curved mag isn't really that much help. 
I've got a full body shot somewhere I'll see if I can find it and load it up for you.

Yes,we used the SUIT sight on occasion. Not everyone had them fitted though.


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## Earl of Ormonde

Found it, here ya go Megahertz, now you can see the whole rifle & see that it's an AK. Next task, identify the pistol on my right leg.:icon_smile_wink:


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## 127.72 MHz

Yes indeed now I can see it's an AK. If I had spent a bit more time looking the stock it would have been a dena give away.

I have an inch variant L1A1 and my three others are metric versions including an Israeli, Austrian (Stg58), and Imbel. (.223) (takes AR15.M16 mags)

I can't see the pistol at your side well enough to make a guess. If your rifle had been an L1A1 I'd hazard a guess at you carrying a BHP. (like I have quite often) but since the rifle is an AK I've got no idea.

Best wishes,


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif

Cruiser said:


> By the way they were called "utilities," not fatigues. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


Back in the day, the Marine's utilities were the Army's fatigues. I guess they all wear BDUs now unless they have invented yet another new name.


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## JDC

Kurt N said:


> He's a drummer. From the current version of the Wikipedia article "Corps of Drums":
> 
> In some regiments, it has become custom for the percussion rank to wear leopard skins over their uniform. This has the dual purpose of protecting the uniform (cymbals have to be muffled against the chest, and therefore would leave vertical marks on a bare tunic) and protecting the instruments themselves (the bass drum can be scratched by uniform buttons). Modern "leopard skins" are made from synthetic fur. Other regiments opt for a simple leather or cloth apron.
> 
> Learn something new every day....


Well, that explains the leopard skin. How about the red can-can fringe?


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## IlliniFlyer

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> Back in the day, the Marine's utilities were the Army's fatigues. I guess they all wear BDUs now unless they have invented yet another new name.


Technically speaking they all have different names and are actually different uniforms. You have:
Marine Corps- MC Combat Utilities (the digi-cammies using the MARine PATern, aka MARPAT)
Army- Army Combat Uniform (greenish-grey digi-cammies)
Air Force- Airman Battle Uniform (tiger-striped uniform)
Navy*- Navy Working Uniform (digi-cammies based on MARPAT but with blue/black/grey color scheme)
Coast Guard -??? I'm pretty sure they have their same utilities.

* The Navy still uses the Desert Camouflage Uniform (successor to the chocolate-chip BDU but still destined to be phased out by a variant of the NWU)


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## Cruiser

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> Back in the day, the Marine's utilities were the Army's fatigues.


I know. I was just taking a little dig at Eagle. I try not to pass up an opportunity to correct a Colonel. :icon_smile_big:

The USMC changed their standard issue uniform to what they then called "jungle utilities" in the mid-70s. I went back into the Reserves for a couple of years after I left active duty and they were wearing the jungle utes. They were a lot more comfortable to wear than the old utilities but I must admit they didn't work very well at camouflage in the snow.










Cruiser


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## Earl of Ormonde

127.72 MHz said:


> Yes indeed now I can see it's an AK. If I had spent a bit more time looking the stock it would have been a dena give away.
> 
> I have an inch variant L1A1 and my three others are metric versions including an Israeli, Austrian (Stg58), and Imbel. (.223) (takes AR15.M16 mags)
> 
> I can't see the pistol at your side well enough to make a guess. If your rifle had been an L1A1 I'd hazard a guess at you carrying a BHP. (like I have quite often) but since the rifle is an AK I've got no idea.
> 
> Best wishes,


Spot on, of course back in the day in the UK it would have been a BHP 9mm. But No, it's a good old fashioned Colt 45.


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## WouldaShoulda

Cruiser said:


> The USMC changed their standard issue uniform to what they then called "jungle utilities" in the mid-70s. I went back into the Reserves for a couple of years after I left active duty and they were wearing the jungle utes. They were a lot more comfortable to wear than the old utilities but I must admit they didn't work very well at camouflage in the snow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cruiser


Looks like the same boots though.


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## Earl of Ormonde

CIMIC (Civil-Military Cooperation) exercise - Barents Rescue 2001 up by the polar circle in Sweden.










This is part of the Swedish Distaff. 
Captain Mons, our helo pilot (Army Air Corp) and air surveillance expert in No.2s standing behind my right shoulder.
A couple of Tech. Batt. (Signals) reservists in combats. Two more uniformed officers in the background.

I've always liked the blocky look of the disruptive pattern on Swedish combats.

Apologies for not have my middle button done up, and for having my tie knot too tight that it disturbed the collar! :icon_smile_wink:

Note: the ubiquitous blue blazer & grey slacks, I'd forgotten I was still wearing it as recently as 2001!  Although I obviously thought it looked okay then, I wouldn't wear it now.......or would I? :icon_smile::icon_smile_wink:


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## Harry Flashman

FrankDC said:


> Well, that explains the leopard skin. How about the red can-can fringe?


The red is simply the backing cloth that the skin is attached to.


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