# Gold



## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm considering buying a few ounces of gold to put away. I'm fairly happy with my investments as they are but it seems like it would be a reasonable idea to have some gold on hand for "the end times"/"Armageddon" etc. Maybe I would be better off buying some more chickens...

Would like to pay a minimum over the market price of gold but have something that is easily sold or spent. Seems like smaller coins would be better?

Ideas?


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

Personal opinion: Always buy low and sell high. Never buy into a rising market. Especially if the market has already risen. The biggest sucker is the one who jumps on the bandwagon after the bandwagon is already a block out of town. 

Disclaimer: the above is personal opinion; not investment advice. Consult a professional when considering investment decisions :biggrin:.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Dragoon said:


> I'm considering buying a few ounces of gold to put away. I'm fairly happy with my investments as they are but it seems like it would be a reasonable idea to have some gold on hand for "the end times"/"Armageddon" etc. Maybe I would be better off buying some more chickens...
> 
> Would like to pay a minimum over the market price of gold but have something that is easily sold or spent. Seems like smaller coins would be better?
> 
> Ideas?


Ever since President Nixon unlinked the US dollar from a set value of gold, it has consistently risen (an upward trend). However.... Getting your money back out of the gold is the issue. Who are you going to sell it to? Other individuals like yourself? Or Jewelers etc. It's like Blue book value. You just don't get your money's worth when dealing with an "institution."

Let's say you have a US Gold coin that is 1oz (Troy), and values at $2000 (current) based solely on weight. Sell it to another individual and you might get that. Sell it to a dealer, and you might get 75% that. 75% of that is $1500. How much did you pay for it originally? Can you afford to take a $500 hit on it? Over time, the gold will likely go up in value (based on the trend since Nixon's administration). It's not until that 1oz coin is worth $2700 that you can take a 25% hit on it that you would break even ($2700 *.75=$2025). At 10% annual increase value that's a little over 3 years.

Honestly, you're better off taking $5000 in cash, 2 good handguns, and enough ammo to get some chickens if it comes to "end of days." Remember a good gun will always get you dinner if you need it.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Dragoon said:


> I'm considering buying a few ounces of gold to put away. I'm fairly happy with my investments as they are but it seems like it would be a reasonable idea to have some gold on hand for "the end times"/"Armageddon" etc. Maybe I would be better off buying some more chickens...
> 
> Would like to pay a minimum over the market price of gold but have something that is easily sold or spent. Seems like smaller coins would be better?
> 
> Ideas?


If you're talking about a true WROL (without rule of law) situation, I think you're money is better spent elsewhere. I would add to Apathetic Views comments that you should probably grab a .22 rifle and another one in .223. Chances are you'll have more buying power with a brick of ammo than a brick of gold.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> If you're talking about a true WROL (without rule of law) situation, I think you're money is better spent elsewhere. I would add to Apathetic Views comments that you should probably grab a .22 rifle and another one in .223. Chances are you'll have more buying power with a brick of ammo than a brick of gold.


Bump that up to 7.62 (.308). .223 is great, for "people" but .308 will take down a deer as well, and your range goes from 500yards to 1000+.


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

I've got plenty of guns, got a garden and I really do keep chickens.

Just seems to me that a few pieces of gold that I could put my hands on might possibly be a good part of a diversified emergency fund. I'm talking an amount 1/2-1 percent of my total investments.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Apatheticviews said:


> Ever since President Nixon unlinked the US dollar from a set value of gold, it has consistently risen (an upward trend). However.... Getting your money back out of the gold is the issue. Who are you going to sell it to? Other individuals like yourself? Or Jewelers etc. It's like Blue book value. You just don't get your money's worth when dealing with an "institution."
> 
> Let's say you have a US Gold coin that is 1oz (Troy), and values at $2000 (current) based solely on weight. Sell it to another individual and you might get that. Sell it to a dealer, and you might get 75% that. 75% of that is $1500. How much did you pay for it originally? Can you afford to take a $500 hit on it? Over time, the gold will likely go up in value (based on the trend since Nixon's administration). It's not until that 1oz coin is worth $2700 that you can take a 25% hit on it that you would break even ($2700 *.75=$2025). At 10% annual increase value that's a little over 3 years.
> 
> Honestly, you're better off taking $5000 in cash, 2 good handguns, and enough ammo to get some chickens if it comes to "end of days." Remember a good gun will always get you dinner if you need it.


+1 and an excellent summary of the allure of the concept vs the challenges of the reality of what is suggested by the OP, if I may say so!  Well said, Sir.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Apatheticviews said:


> Bump that up to 7.62 (.308). .223 is great, for "people" but .308 will take down a deer as well, and your range goes from 500yards to 1000+.


I thought about 7.62NATO, but .223 ammo is more widely used by civilians, police and military than any other round and, for that reason, is more practical, I think. If you have a .223 already, a .308 would definitely be my suggestion.


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

Have seen some predictions that gold will drop to the $1,450-$1,500 range. Krugerrands seem to have the lowest premium of what I've been able to turn up.

Speaking of guns though, I'm considering buying my very first EBR. A Ruger sr-556.


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## bernoulli (Mar 21, 2011)

Horrible idea. Gold bears no interest and transaction costs are very high. It is the same reason art and rare books are usually a bad investment (I do collect rare books, and my collection is valuable, but it is a horrible investment). A few can make money out of it, but not enough for it to be a valuable strategy. 

And I am an expert, but I am not getting anything out of my opinion so caveat emptor.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> I thought about 7.62NATO, but .223 ammo is more widely used by civilians, police and military than any other round and, for that reason, is more practical, I think. If you have a .223 already, a .308 would definitely be my suggestion.


You would think so, but the standard .308 (7.62) is still pretty popular, and not subject to as much oversight, not comment when you buy it. In VA (and I would assume many other states) you can't hunt deer with anything smaller than .243, so buying a half case (or more) of ammo draws attention. Since it's ORD, shipping gets weird (and possibly cost restrictive). And honestly, bigger bullets just work better in many cases. .223 limits you to the standard AR platform (and a few others). .308 opens up a whole lot of others since the round is so much older (about a decade), including a lot of bolt action types.

Less "Assault Weapon" stigma attached to the .308, even though it's more effective, just as available (because of age, and class of weapons). No one even thinks twice when you say, you're asking for a .308 in semi-auto. But ask for a AR15....


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## challer (Sep 4, 2008)

Gold coins just don't work as Apatheticviews describes. There is no 25% hit when selling. Open an account with KITCO and you see how it all lays out. Dealers rarely make more than a percent or two on a trade. Gold is easily sold anywhere in the world.


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## YoungClayB (Nov 16, 2009)

JerseyJohn said:


> Personal opinion: Always buy low and sell high. Never buy into a rising market. Especially if the market has already risen. The biggest sucker is the one who jumps on the bandwagon after the bandwagon is already a block out of town.
> 
> Disclaimer: the above is personal opinion; not investment advice. Consult a professional when considering investment decisions :biggrin:.


Agree. Now is the time to buy bank stocks (Bank of America, Citi, Wells, etc) - not gold or silver. Metal prices are at historic highs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Apatheticviews said:


> You would think so, but the standard .308 (7.62) is still pretty popular, and not subject to as much oversight, not comment when you buy it. In VA (and I would assume many other states) you can't hunt deer with anything smaller than .243, so buying a half case (or more) of ammo draws attention. Since it's ORD, shipping gets weird (and possibly cost restrictive). And honestly, bigger bullets just work better in many cases. .223 limits you to the standard AR platform (and a few others). .308 opens up a whole lot of others since the round is so much older (about a decade), including a lot of bolt action types.
> 
> Less "Assault Weapon" stigma attached to the .308, even though it's more effective, just as available (because of age, and class of weapons). No one even thinks twice when you say, you're asking for a .308 in semi-auto. But ask for a AR15....


While in complete agreement with every point made in the quotation above, I would add that the bark of the dog is also a consideration. An M16/AR15chambered for .223 rounds, chatters like a 'hopped-up Chihuahua,' while a .308 barks like a big dog. :devil:In anticipation of operating in a post apocolyptic world community, skip the M16/AR15 and get yourself an M60. LOL. Not only will you be better prepared to engage your enemy, the very sound of a big dog barking will scare the sh*t out of him! Don't fret about the assault weapon stigma...stay focused on your ability to put lead on target!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

challer said:


> Gold coins just don't work as Apatheticviews describes. There is no 25% hit when selling. Open an account with KITCO and you see how it all lays out. Dealers rarely make more than a percent or two on a trade. Gold is easily sold anywhere in the world.


I'm not referring to just coins, but gold in general. Or any asset you need to *liquidate* quickly.

Getting at your money is the issue. Converting money into spending capital. Last I checked, stores don't take Gold, and haven't for years. That means taking those coins (or shipping them) to someone who does. That's where those 25% hits come into play (or delays).

Walk into any jewelry store (or Pawn store) that has a "We Buy Gold" sign a put your wedding ring on the table. Ask them how much they'll give you. They'll tell you the current value of gold, the weight of your ring, etc, and they'll also give you a $ amount FAR BELOW current market.

We're not talking about Commodity Trading. We're talking about having true assets on hand in case of an emergency (Zombie apocalypse or otherwise).


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## Dennis V. (Apr 20, 2010)

In any kind of society breakdown gold is going to be worthless, at least in the early stages. People will not trade scarce necessities for useless metal, at least not for any reasonable amount. Food will probably be worth it's weight in gold, if not more. Even during an event like hyperinflation gold will not be very marketable because people will be trading necessities for other necessities. Valuables will be almost worthless.

If I were worried about society collapse I would more likely put my money in making my home less dependent on the energy and water infrastructure, because that would collapse right away as well. Solar panels, solar boilers, a greywater system and a wood burning stove would be my priorities, and even without society collapse they'll cut down expenses on water and energy.

Also in the second phase of society collapse (should it ever come that far without society reorganizing) knowledge will be key. The ability to grow or gather food will be the most important, because supplies will only last for a limited time, and many other things we may now need to know to get ahead in life will be irrelevant. Books on edible and medicinal plants and fungi, and organic farming would be my first choices. Basic tools would be a good trading item for this phase.

It's only after society reorganizes itself that gold will become a good trading item again, before that happens, there are many things that should have a higher priority. Gold is also set at a relatively high price because of the economic downturn (gold is the "safe haven" for investors when the stock markets go down, and commodities go down as well) so if you buy now you will probably start losing money on the gold when the economy picks up and inflation starts to rise more.

More chickens is always a good idea, as long as they don't go zombie on you.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

If it ever got THAT bad I would not sell you my chicken for gold.

If it never gets that bad you still have to convert it to cash and pay the vig buying and selling.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> If you're talking about a true WROL (without rule of law) situation, I think you're money is better spent elsewhere. I would add to Apathetic Views comments that you should probably grab a .22 rifle and another one in .223. Chances are you'll have more buying power with a brick of ammo than a brick of gold.


Funny this comes up, I just picked up an Armalite M15A4 AR-15 (.223/5.56NATO) as an early Christmas present to myself. When it comes down to it, in a city/suburban environment, I'd much prefer this to a larger caliber.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Funny this comes up, I just picked up an Armalite M15A4 AR-15 (.223/5.56NATO) as an early Christmas present to myself. When it comes down to it, in a city/suburban environment, I'd much prefer this to a larger caliber.


Nothing wrong with .22/.223 (and I'm a huge fan of Armalites, having been a former dealer of theirs), it's not a *hunting* round. It's a *killing* round. If your prey is on TWO legs, it's perfectly fine. If your prey has four, bump the calibre up a bit.

That said, I own a FS2000 chambered in .223. Keep my previous statements in mind.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Apatheticviews said:


> ...it's not a *hunting* round. It's a *killing* round...


I don't know how you guys hunt down in Virginia, but I think you might be doing it wrong.

I hear what you're saying AV. If ballistics was the only concern, I'd be lugging around a Garand. I suggested .223 because it's a versatile round in wide circulation in the US, ammo would be easy to trade for goods and easier to find/scavenge. Something in 5.56 would probably be better still. Of course, if you've already got a bunker full of South African battlepacks and a rack of FALs, no sense in trading down.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> I don't know how you guys hunt down in Virginia, but I think you might be doing it wrong.
> 
> I hear what you're saying AV. If ballistics was the only concern, I'd be lugging around a Garand. I suggested .223 because it's a versatile round in wide circulation in the US, ammo would be easy to trade for goods and easier to find/scavenge. Something in 5.56 would probably be better still. Of course, if you've already got a bunker full of South African battlepacks and a rack of FALs, no sense in trading down.


*Can't hunt with .223 in VA*. Minimum to hunt deer (legally) in VA is .243. Since many states have similar (reciprocal) laws regarding hunting, I recommend going up. .308 (7.62) is the next most common round for Military/Sports/Hunting, and is in wide distribution in both the military (M60, M240G) & civilian communities (quite a few deer rifles).

Anything smaller than a deer (4 legged). Hit it with a .223 and it turns into a fine pink mist. It's a solid round. It does great work, but you aren't hunting anything in VA with it. It's a varmint/plinking/target round here.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

If it's versatility you are looking for, I have a 870 with a shot barrel and a slug barrel. 

Useless after 30 yards or so but perfect for the suburbs!!


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

All rifle hunting is banned in NJ (except for woodchucks, and even then you can only use a .22LR) so, I wasn't even thinking on those terms. If the poop hits the ventilator, I don't know that I would be too worried about making sure I have all of my hunting stamps and licenses in order, let alone using a compliant caliber if feeding my family is the objective.

I am curious, though, as to what kinds of game would be available in that situation. Clearly, you're thinking big game. I'm thinking whatever game I can take with a .22 (squirrels, rabbits, sitting ducks, roosting upland birds).


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## Gromson (Oct 11, 2009)

Get a nice .30-30 lever action or two instead of gold.

-you can use it to hunt, target shoot or cowboy action shoot

-you can buy .30-30 ammo anywhere, easily, and it's not going to be all sucked up by the Rambo wannabees 

-no one will really think you're 'that scary gun nut' for having a couple of old Winchesters

-you can hunt any game animal in North America with a .30-30

And, most importantly for Ask Andy, you can dress really well with an old Winchester. Filson, LL Bean, Orvis etc all go quite nice with an old lever action. You want to be well dressed when society falls apart.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Gromson said:


> Get a nice .30-30 lever action or two instead of gold.
> 
> ...most importantly for Ask Andy, you can dress really well with an old Winchester. Filson, LL Bean, Orvis etc all go quite nice with an old lever action. You want to be well dressed when society falls apart.


You win!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
No, no, no...Gromson is not right! When the Zombies are coming to get you and yours, ya just cannot lay down a respectable 'final protective line' (to hold the Bast*rds at bay) with a lever or bolt action .30-30. It is essential to have that fully automatic and/or (three shot) bursts of fire; belt fed, assault pack capability and a sustaining lust for payback. Just remember, though you may re-kill them, you must never eat a Zombie...lest you become one!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Gromson said:


> And, most importantly for Ask Andy, you can dress really well with an old Winchester. Filson, LL Bean, Orvis etc all go quite nice with an old lever action. You want to be well dressed when society falls apart.


I'd rather be dead than wear orange blaze or cammo!!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> All rifle hunting is banned in NJ (except for woodchucks, and even then you can only use a .22LR) so, I wasn't even thinking on those terms. If the poop hits the ventilator, I don't know that I would be too worried about making sure I have all of my hunting stamps and licenses in order, let alone using a compliant caliber if feeding my family is the objective.
> 
> I am curious, though, as to what kinds of game would be available in that situation. Clearly, you're thinking big game. I'm thinking whatever game I can take with a .22 (squirrels, rabbits, sitting ducks, roosting upland birds).


It's not a matter of having them in order... but here in "hunting country" it's good to remember that the rifle can be used to take down a deer if need be. Although I'm sure a .223 will work fine if needed. I don't look forward to chasing it down for 15-45 minutes them having to put it out of its misery. .308 works well, and will handle a bear as well if push comes to shove. .223 "may" just piss it off until the 5th or so round.

One deer for a week, is better than a rabbit for a night....


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## pweller (May 21, 2008)

Getting back to the OP's question, every time I see someone talking about how to prepare for the 'end of times' I think one thing: What is the probability of that happening? After all, good decision making is about determining risk. So, when is the last time we experienced armageddon, and how likely are we to experience it again?

As I say, things tend to go up in value based on emotion, and come down based on logic. Gold went up due to fear, it'll come down once people realize (yet again) that it has very little practical value. It wasn't that long ago that gold was around $300 per oz.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

pweller said:


> Getting back to the OP's question, every time I see someone talking about how to prepare for the 'end of times' I think one thing: What is the probability of that happening? After all, good decision making is about determining risk. So, when is the last time we experienced armageddon, and how likely are we to experience it again?
> 
> As I say, things tend to go up in value based on emotion, and come down based on logic. Gold went up due to fear, it'll come down once people realize (yet again) that it has very little practical value. It wasn't that long ago that gold was around $300 per oz.


It depends on how you define "end of times." If you define it as total government collapse, and use every country in the planet over the last 50 years....... the odds aren't that bad.


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## helo-flyer (Nov 22, 2008)

Apatheticviews said:


> It's not a matter of having them in order... but here in "hunting country" it's good to remember that the rifle can be used to take down a deer if need be.


Just make sure you avoid the 2nd LTs out on land nav


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

helo-flyer said:


> Just make sure you avoid the 2nd LTs out on land nav


We used to tell them to wear antlers as part of camouflage. Normally about 15-60 seconds later, we'd get a "WTF Marine!"


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

pweller said:


> Getting back to the OP's question, every time I see someone talking about how to prepare for the 'end of times' I think one thing: What is the probability of that happening?


Pestilence, War, Famine and Death catch up to everyone eventually and does not require a massive event to trigger it.

But so far as general lawlessness in the US is concerned, I'm confident the residents of LA during the King riots or New Orleans during Katrina that were prepared are glad they were.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Apatheticviews said:


> Nothing wrong with .22/.223 (and I'm a huge fan of Armalites, having been a former dealer of theirs), it's not a *hunting* round. It's a *killing* round. If your prey is on TWO legs, it's perfectly fine. If your prey has four, bump the calibre up a bit.
> 
> That said, I own a FS2000 chambered in .223. Keep my previous statements in mind.


Absolutely agreed. I didn't buy a .223 for hunting whatsoever. It's for fun at the range, and, should it ever come to it, a reliable, easy to handle weapon (for youth and females alike) for defense.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Absolutely agreed. I didn't buy a .223 for hunting whatsoever. It's for fun at the range, and, should it ever come to it, a reliable, easy to handle weapon (for youth and females alike) for defense.


I hate to keep these caliber wars going, but is hunting the only concern, or even the main concern in a TEOTWAWKI situation? If there's some sort of societal collapse, my first thought isn't going to be "Crap, I better go hunting, like, right now!" It's going to be, "I need to secure my family and my property from the rioters/looters/feral sheep/zombies/alien invaders."

Since I live in a suburban community, my next step is to link up with my neighbors. I live within commuting distance of Fort Dix and McGuire AF Base and many of my neighbors are active military. I know for a fact that many of them prefer the AR-15 platform as their HD firearm of choice, and that makes stockpiling .223 a good choice for me (and, since it's probably the most popular black rifle platform in the country, it's a good choice for most people as well). If we need to pool our ammo, the guy with the bolt action in .25-35 Winchester is probably out of luck once his supply runs out.

Another concern when you're dealing with a suburban setting is overpenetration. A .308 might be great on an open battlefield or from a deerstand but it's not exactly sheetrock-wall friendly:










In a situation where I have to bail-out, I'm not heading into the wilderness. I'm going to take my family to stay with a friend or relative where the above still applies.

The bottom line is that no one caliber is perfect for every situation. A .308 would be great if I lived on a self-sufficient compound with no-one around for miles. If that's your situation, I know where I'm going when the night soil hits the air changer!


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

.22 center-fires with expanding bullets are legal for deer in Georgia. I've actually killed several with my .218 Bee. Using appropriate hand loads at relatively short range and with precise bullet placement, it kills our smallish deer with authority.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> I hate to keep these caliber wars going, but is hunting the only concern, or even the main concern in a TEOTWAWKI situation? If there's some sort of societal collapse, my first thought isn't going to be "Crap, I better go hunting, like, right now!" It's going to be, "I need to secure my family and my property from the rioters/looters/feral sheep/zombies/alien invaders."
> 
> Since I live in a suburban community, my next step is to link up with my neighbors. I live within commuting distance of Fort Dix and McGuire AF Base and many of my neighbors are active military. I know for a fact that many of them prefer the AR-15 platform as their HD firearm of choice, and that makes stockpiling .223 a good choice for me (and, since it's probably the most popular black rifle platform in the country, it's a good choice for most people as well). If we need to pool our ammo, the guy with the bolt action in .25-35 Winchester is probably out of luck once his supply runs out.
> 
> ...


It's all about the right tool for the right job. That's why there are so many guns. If I could only choose one... I'm going bigger (.308 is still really common, especially in hunting friendly states). If I were living in NJ, .223 would make more sense since the only deer I would see would be a "Yes, Dear."

.223 is a fine caliber but post AWB there are so many legal constraints in states like NY, CA, which when combined with the ones I mentioned with hunting (.243 minimum hunting caliber), it may or may not be the "go to" round originally expected.

Don't get me wrong, if you have the following in your house you would be covered:

AR15 - .223/5.56 (Standard military ammo, readily available most locations)
1911 - .45ACP (Old classic. Former military round, common police round. Not as common as 9mm/40S&W, but very available)
Berretta M9/Glock/Sig - 9mm (Standard military ammo, readily available most locations)
Glock/HK P2000 - 40S&W (Standard Police/Federal LE ammo, readily available)
AR10 (AR15 platform) - .308 (or any .308 platform in semi auto) (Standard military ammo, readily available most locations)
12 gauge shotgun, pump action. (Standard round)

It's when you are outside those 5 ammo types, you'll start seeing issues, on being able to resupply yourself out of your dead neighbors stock.


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

I like this thread. Not long ago we were having a discussion at work on whether to buy gold or silver for the "end of times". I said the only precious metal I'm going to be interested in at that point will be lead.  I do know some people who have invested in gold and silver, and if you talk to a lot of them long enough, they always reveal that the gold and silver are investments and hedges against inflation, but their ammo stockpile is their investment for the big collapse. These are people who I wouldn't even think own a firearm, let alone an ammo stockpile.

By the way, in case the zombies do show up:



Andy B.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I once pressed a 100% authentic special forces black ops dude which calibre he preferred, and he insisted that what mattered most was not the calibre of the ammo but having ammo and knowing what to do with it; he said he liked 9mm simply because it is ubiquitous and easy to find, at least abroad. Perhaps it's less common in the US, but I don't know, and thank god this guy didn't ply his trade domestically.

I didn't ask his opinion on long gun calibers.

That said, I watched "I am Legend" with dismay as Will Smith went up against zombies with an M-4. That made no sense.



hardline_42 said:


> I thought about 7.62NATO, but .223 ammo is more widely used by civilians, police and military than any other round and, for that reason, is more practical, I think. If you have a .223 already, a .308 would definitely be my suggestion.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

By the way, a horde of cigarettes would also do a lot of good in any kind of end of times scenario. In Auschwitz cigarettes were the de facto currency in the camp economy. People traded the damnedest things for cigarettes. Food. Clothing. Whatever it took.


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> By the way, a horde of cigarettes would also do a lot of good in any kind of end of times scenario. In Auschwitz cigarettes were the de facto currency in the camp economy. People traded the damnedest things for cigarettes. Food. Clothing. Whatever it took.


I can relate to that. Sadly.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> I once pressed a 100% authentic special forces black ops dude which calibre he preferred, and he insisted that what mattered most was not the calibre of the ammo but having ammo and knowing what to do with it; he said he liked 9mm simply because it is ubiquitous and easy to find, at least abroad. Perhaps it's less common in the US, but I don't know, and thank god this guy didn't ply his trade domestically.
> 
> I didn't ask his opinion on long gun calibers.
> 
> That said, I watched "I am Legend" with dismay as Will Smith went up against zombies with an M-4. That made no sense.


9mm is pretty much the "universal" pistol ammo. Being a NATO standard round, you can get it anywhere (and I do mean anywhere). In the US, we still have lots of 45acp, however lots of other countries don't (many ban it as military specific). The 40S&W is necked down variant of the 10mm, and as far as ammo goes, not that old. It is also pretty much US specific.

As for long gun caliber, the 7.62x39mm (AK 47 and clones) is probably your #1, followed by 5.56mm/.223 (M16/AR15) & 7.62x51mm (.308 Winchester). The reasons being, Soviet & China militaries standard weapon for years was the AK (or clone) When you are dealing with a "billion" AK's and enough ammo to go with, the 7.62x39mm wins hands down. The US militaries' (and allies) M16 platforms & medium machine guns (most in .308) are NATO standard caliber wise like our friendly 9mm. Basically large stockpiles across the world.


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

Apatheticviews said:


> The 40S&W is necked down variant of the 10mm, and as far as ammo goes, not that old. It is also pretty much US specific.


Not to pick nits, but the 40 S&W is the shortened version of the 10mm, not necked down.

Andy B.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

andy b. said:


> Not to pick nits, but the 40 S&W is the shortened version of the 10mm, not necked down.
> 
> Andy B.


Sorry, meant to say cut down (shortened), not necked down (as compared to a .357sig which is essentially a "necked down" 10mm or 40S&W). Same cartridge & round diameter, different cartridge length.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> I hate to keep these caliber wars going, but is hunting the only concern, or even the main concern in a TEOTWAWKI situation? If there's some sort of societal collapse, my first thought isn't going to be "Crap, I better go hunting, like, right now!" It's going to be, "I need to secure my family and my property from the rioters/looters/feral sheep/zombies/alien invaders."
> 
> Since I live in a suburban community, my next step is to link up with my neighbors. I live within commuting distance of Fort Dix and McGuire AF Base and many of my neighbors are active military. I know for a fact that many of them prefer the AR-15 platform as their HD firearm of choice, and that makes stockpiling .223 a good choice for me (and, since it's probably the most popular black rifle platform in the country, it's a good choice for most people as well). If we need to pool our ammo, the guy with the bolt action in .25-35 Winchester is probably out of luck once his supply runs out.
> 
> ...


And with any luck, at the end of times, AAAC will still be up, and I'll come to your camp with my .223!


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