# Political leanings of forum members



## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Over the past few months I've noticed that discussions of politics on the interchange have tended to bring out more analysis from a conservative rather than liberal perspective. Is it just my wishful thinking that finally an internet community predominated by conservatives or am I accurate in my assessment. Your feedback would be appreciated. 

P.S. If you're a Lib I'll still Love you!


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Yes, I agree that there are more members of AAAC to the right of center than the left. Any website that draws much of its population from a mature (read: somewhat older) group of gentlemen devoted to dressing well in a traditional manner _would_ be more conservative in their views. This is not to say that there are no gentlemen in their 20's or those who have a more liberal outlook; there are many. They just do not seem to be in the majority here. But different viewpoints are a good thing as long as verbal fisticuffs are not always breaking out. :icon_smile:


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

I'd guess it's around 60-40 leaning right here.... but generally it seems you can have a rational discussion that does not deteriorate into namecalling and childishness. Styleforum is probably 60-40 the other way and it's members are younger and have fewer kids


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I agree we probably tip towards what is generall defined as "conservative" here, with a few vocal outliers to the left.

My suspicion though, is it will break down to issues, not the defined camps of "liberal" and "conservative". While I wear my moniker of "right wing nut job" from gmac with pride, on many issues true members of the modern day "conservative" camp will call me a liberal. For instance, I am 100% for free needle exchanges, civil unions between gays, and abortion.

It seems that the two camps have a whole set of issues with proscribed stances, stances that are often contradictory to their usual positions i.e. when beneficial, either party will flip its usual stance on government intervention, meaning libs are just fine with Federal laws when it comes to gun control but I'll be darned if gay marriage is not considered a States' Rights issue by them as it has so far been to their benefit to do so.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

I agree that the political spectrum here is all over the map, and in fact the definitions of "liberal" and "conservative" seem to change on a daily basis, making it virtually impossible to label forum members. For the record, I consider myself a fiscal conservative and social liberal. (Whatever that means.) I am also agnostic. (Whatever _that_ means.) And I don't care whether they're real or fake as long as they're big...


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

I'm a rightwing nutjob who is into organic gardening - go figure.

Somewhat unlike Wayfarer, lbierals and my fellow conservatives just call me a wiseass.

That hurts me.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Let me clarify my previous statement. Men who dress impeccably I'm sure can be of any political persuasion. My belief was that men who dress traditionally will _tend_ to be more conservative than liberal. My opinion is more about generalities.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Or, to put it another way - the Grunge Look was not started by the College Republicans


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

I would have to say I am more of a liberal conservative than a conservative liberal.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I am a conservative, and identify myself with the Republican Party in the United States. Unfortunately for me, I would rather live in a country with a monarchy.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> I'm a rightwing nutjob who is into organic gardening - go figure.
> 
> Somewhat unlike Wayfarer, lbierals and my fellow conservatives just call me a wiseass.
> 
> That hurts me.


I believe NRO would call you a "cruchy con." You see, there is a label to fit everyone.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I try to crack my free range, organic eggs in the middle. I still manage to offend everybody, usually those espousing the same social causes. I have the famous photograph of Roosevelt and Muir at Yellowstone to keep me focused.


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## Briguy (Aug 29, 2005)

I describe myself as a Reagan Republican. I vote straight ticket Republican, no matter how nutty the candidate, under the theory that nutty Republican bills will rarely get out of committee, but nutty Democrat bills have a higher risk of getting signed into law, thus, I believe that my approach to voting will result in the fewest nutty laws being passed. 

I do tend to focus on figuring out what works, no matter where the idea comes from, then pushing the pols to do that. Perhaps I should start a new political party; the "pull your head out of your butt and do what works" party. Nah, that’s way too much to fit into a sound-bite.


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## Briguy (Aug 29, 2005)

From Mrs. Briguy: I am as far left as I can be and still be right.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

hockeyinsider said:


> I am a conservative, and identify myself with the Republican Party in the United States. Unfortunately for me, I would rather live in a country with a monarchy.


Hockey - I'd actually prefer to BE the monarchy. The Royal Poohbate of Chuck with me as Grand Poohbah.

Briguy - ouch....


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

The thing I have noticed about people wishing a return to monarchy, is that they never seem to think they might be a serf.


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

My leanings? Hard to sum them up w one party. But I suppose I am one of the few people in the world who has been a member of both the NRA and the Sierra Club at the same time.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Color me disgusted.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Whatever it is, I'm against it.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Liberal Democrat here.

Check out my blogs:

www.rationalresistance.blogspot.com
www.greenmountaindaily.com


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

cufflink44 said:


> I agree that political thought of every stripe is to be found on the Interchange. But clearly right-of-center views predominate. I'd say the ratio of right to left is closer to 90-10 than it is to 60-40.
> 
> The question of whether there's a connection between a devotion to traditional clothing and a conservative political orientation interests me. Certainly there have been non-conservative politicians who were paragons of style. (In his book, Manton counts Willie Brown as a sartorial hero.) But perhaps those are the exceptions to the rule.
> 
> A related question: When people see a man dressed impeccably, do they tend to make any assumptions about his political views?


 I think it may be more like 70/30 here. I don't necessarily think that one's _dress_ clothes reveal much. But casual clothes, as well as personal grooming, can be very revealing. I'd like to see stats on it, but I'd be willing to wager that a VAST majority of men with facial hair lean to the left, as do women with black plastic glasses, short hair and/or no makeup. I've never seen anyone with dreadlocks at a Republican event or protest. One the flip side, you don't see many with khakis and OCBDs at a Sierra Club or STO protest. There are of course exceptions, but I'd guess this is 80% accurate.


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

To paraphrase Judge Learned Hand: I am too liberal for most conservatives and too conservative for most liberals. But I am not a moderate-- I don't believe in compromise to the middle of the road on all issues. I am Pro-Life and pro-environment; anti big government and pretty suspicious of big business. I am very big on tradition in many ways, but recognize that in some areas such as medicine and technological "progress", i.e., development is vital. I guess I am fairly conservative, but don't you think labels are pretty meaningless these days?

Joe


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Joe Frances said:


> To paraphrase Judge Learned Hand: I am too liberal for most conservatives and too conservative for most liberals.


I'm too conservative for most conservatives.

Not as conservative as Russel Kirk though.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Jill said:


> I'd like to see stats on it, but I'd be willing to wager that a VAST majority of men with facial hair lean to the left...


Now Jill, I know you qualified it and did not make a universal statement, but your's truly has not been completely clean shaven since I was 15  I still wear a goatee and plan to go back to full beard when I retire....maybe with braids!


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Patrick06790 said:


> Whatever it is, I'm against it.


If it runs for office, I don't trust it.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> Now Jill, I know you qualified it and did not make a universal statement, but your's truly has not been completely clean shaven since I was 15  I still wear a goatee and plan to go back to full beard when I retire....maybe with braids!


Oh my! Well I'm sure you look dashing! The numbers may be skewed a bit by the goatee trend over the past dozen years, or so.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Knew she was quick but wow... she backpeddles like an NFL cornerback

(hits like a linebacker too... hiding now)


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

what about the members outside the united states?


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## clothesboy (Sep 19, 2004)

KenR said:


> Yes, I agree that there are more members of AAAC to the right of center than the left. Any website that draws much of its population from a mature (read: somewhat older) group of gentlemen devoted to dressing well in a traditional manner _would_ be more conservative in their views. This is not to say that there are no gentlemen in their 20's or those who have a more liberal outlook; there are many. They just do not seem to be in the majority here. But different viewpoints are a good thing as long as verbal fisticuffs are not always breaking out. :icon_smile:


I am greatly worried by the increasing onset of early demetia.:icon_smile_wink:


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Oops, senior moment. I meant to say gentlemen in their 20's who post to AAAC.


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## clothesboy (Sep 19, 2004)

KenR said:


> Oops, senior moment. I meant to say gentlemen in their 20's who post to AAAC.


KenR,
I got that that was what you meant. I was referring to those of the conservative political spectrum.:devil:


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

I am in my mid 20s. I consider myself a libertarian (with a lowercase "l"). I am also fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I usually vote Republican in most local and state elections and I invariably vote Democrat in elections for national office.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I am a Republican but, have not voted straight ticket in over 25 years...finding my attitudes becoming more jaded and yet my perspectives becoming more centrist as time goes on. Is that possible?


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## arbitrage (Jan 13, 2006)

I am a registered Democrat. I consider myself a social moderate and fiscal conservative. In NYC I often get labeled as a Neo-Con @[email protected]#[email protected]#%!!! I am so disgusted by the way the Democratic party is being dragged to the left I tend to vote 3rd Party/Republican if their is not a suitable moderate/conservative Democratic candidate.

I am:

Pro-Choice (not for birth-control, just to save a woman's life)
Pro-Death Penalty
Anti-Union
Anti-Welfare
Pro-Personal Responsibility


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I still refute the Democratic Party being dragged to the left. They take one look at Ralph Nader and/or the Greens, Natural law, et al and embrace centrism faster than Bill did Monica.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

NewYorkBuck said:


> My leanings? Hard to sum them up w one party. But I suppose I am one of the few people in the world who has been a member of both the NRA and the Sierra Club at the same time.


 Don't be so sure that we number so few. Add on Young Americans for Freedom (sniff... ) , NORML, and the Appalachian Mountain Club for me if you want all of your sensibilities twisted out of sync.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Alex, shouldn't every one of these organizations have an official custom shirt??


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

Kav said:


> I still refute the Democratic Party being dragged to the left. They take one look at Ralph Nader and/or the Greens, Natural law, et al and embrace centrism faster than Bill did Monica.


 I guess we could argue the definitions of "Left". But I think the other poster was referring to the socialists of the Democratic party. (Oh wait, that sounds funny, doesn't it?)


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Of course, the official NORML shirts should be made of hemp cloth.


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## cuffthis (Jul 13, 2004)

I resemble that remark



Chuck Franke said:


> I'm a rightwing nutjob who is into organic gardening - go figure.
> 
> Somewhat unlike Wayfarer, lbierals and my fellow conservatives just call me a wiseass.
> 
> That hurts me.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

I am registered Republican and usually vote straight ticket, though in '04 with some resignation...though I do think I made the better choice.

I am not really in sync, however, with conservative populism, and did not make the greatest College Republican chair because I am at heart a Burkean, not a Kirkean. Which is why I eventually let other more "grassroots" motivated people run it. They wanted to work on campaigns. I wanted to have debates with left wingers, write scornful editorials in the college paper, and throw parties. It just didn't jibe.

I have in law school developed a great interest in the writings and beliefs of Mr. Justice Sutherland and his distrust of the majority and the people.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

*I'm a Colin Powell Republican*

My feeling is if he had run, he would have beaten Clinton and the country would be far different than today.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Jill said:


> I think it may be more like 70/30 here. I don't necessarily think that one's _dress_ clothes reveal much. But casual clothes, as well as personal grooming, can be very revealing. I'd like to see stats on it, but I'd be willing to wager that a VAST majority of men with facial hair lean to the left, as do women with black plastic glasses, short hair and/or no makeup. I've never seen anyone with dreadlocks at a Republican event or protest. One the flip side, you don't see many with khakis and OCBDs at a Sierra Club or STO protest. There are of course exceptions, but I'd guess this is 80% accurate.


I am one of the OCBD, sack suit and khaki wearing Sierra Club members. I don't know about Republicans and dreadlocks, but Ann Coulter claims she is a fan of the Grateful Dead. 
I'm a registered pro-life Democrat, and I am socially and economically conservative....guess you could say I'm a Blue Dog.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

Laxplayer said:


> I am one of the OCBD, sack suit and khaki wearing Sierra Club members...I'm a registered pro-life Democrat, and I am socially and economically conservative....guess you could say I'm a Blue Dog.


 I was thinking there for a minute that Zell Miller had joined us. I hate to be the one to break it to ya, sweetie, but you're no longer a Democrat!:icon_cheers:


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## MER (Feb 5, 2006)

This is quickly becoming the "Jill talks people into changing parties" thread. I get the feeling Chuck might have been a marxist before she got her hands on him.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Jill said:


> I think it may be more like 70/30 here. I don't necessarily think that one's dress clothes reveal much. But casual clothes, as well as personal grooming, can be very revealing. I'd like to see stats on it, but I'd be willing to wager that a VAST majority of men with facial hair lean to the left, as do women with black plastic glasses, short hair and/or no makeup. I've never seen anyone with dreadlocks at a Republican event or protest. One the flip side, you don't see many with khakis and OCBDs at a Sierra Club or STO protest. There are of course exceptions, but I'd guess this is 80% accurate.





Laxplayer said:


> I am one of the OCBD, sack suit and khaki wearing Sierra Club members. I don't know about Republicans and dreadlocks, but Ann Coulter claims she is a fan of the Grateful Dead.
> I'm a registered pro-life Democrat, and I am socially and economically conservative....guess you could say I'm a Blue Dog.


I think even the casual clothes aren't that revealing if you're in Connecticut/New England

Both parties are nationally playing to the common man (which currently is not epitomized by the sack suit (or any suit) and OCBD (or any BD) ).

There are a decent number of "Laxplayers" (not to stereotype you... and in fact many are pro-choice) in the Northeast. I went to college and continue on at law school with junior versions of them. Many professionals or sons/daughters thereof. People who don't like them call them "elitist northern liberals" (usually populist conservatives, or the occasional grassroots liberal backlash) or "wine and cheese party liberals" because they are upper middle class, dressed professionally, and not the Working Man's Democrat. Some are moderate, some pretty liberal.

I would say that many more well-dressed people in the Northeast

particularly those who dress Trad...are these type of political liberal

You'd be quite suprised about the Republicans. They've really gone away from the blue blazer and red tie look. That's me, but that's not most of them anymore. At least not my generation. Plenty of baseball hats, ripped jeans, and braided necklaces, goatees, sideburns, evangelicals. A Congregationalist with his red/blue Press repp tie, loathing of taxes and excessive public religiosity, and tweed jacket can feel very alone in many Republican circles.

Most of my better dressed friends at law school are DNC-Clinton type Dems. I am the only Republican in the group with which I spend most of my time.

The demographics have changed.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

LOL, I've been a Marxist for a long time... Groucho is pretty much my sensei...


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I vote Republican, and here's where I stand on the issues:

- Pro-life.
- Pro-traditional values.
- Supports a strong national defence policy, including first strikes.
- Believes that health care should be for everyone. I support something between full-blown universal health care and programs for lower income, much like what Mitt Romney did in Mass.
- Believes in free-market economics.
- Opposed to labor unions.

That's just some of my beliefs.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

hockeyinsider said:


> ...Opposed to labor unions...


 Oooo. I'll be you're popular around Detroit's pub scene!


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

A hockey player who believes in First Strikes?

Shocked, Shocked I tell you.... Heck, when I was playing Hockey 'out of breath, need to sit' was more than enough reason for a first strike.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Jill said:


> Oooo. I'll be you're popular around Detroit's pub scene!


Oh god Jill, you have no idea! Growing up in a Canadia Big 3 town and then moving to the Detroit Metro area, Japanese imports were such a minority of cars. Then I moved completely out of that area and wow, every other car is an import! Heck, when I went back to my home stomping grounds in Ontario last year, no one had even seen my truck, a Nissan Titan


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

Liberal Democrat. and very pro-labor union.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> Oh god Jill, you have no idea!


 Actually, I do! I lived in the Marriott RenCen for 2 years while I had a contract at GM. Coming from the South, I was truly stunned by the degree of committment these folks have to their respective "Local". OMG. They take it more seriously than radical, fundamentalist Southern Baptists take their Sunday School lessons! I'd never experienced anything like it.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Jill said:


> Actually, I do! I lived in the Marriott RenCen for 2 years while I had a contract at GM. Coming from the South, I was truly stunned by the degree of committment these folks have to their respective "Local". OMG. They take it more seriously than radical, fundamentalist Southern Baptists take their Sunday School lessons! I'd never experienced anything like it.


Yup, it is crazy. I think everyone's IQ drops by 50 points at a union meeting. I had a close friend growing up and his father became Prez of the local, 144 if memory serves. In my senior year of high school I started to figure some things out and worked out I was anti-union. I was no longer welcome in my friend's house when his father found out!


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Ok, here goes:

Conservative Republican (social and fiscal)
Have voted for some local Democrats
Pro-life
Strongly dislike unions
Pro-death penalty (though I sometimes waiver on this)
Staunch advocate of 2nd Amendment
United Methodist who takes Sunday School lessons very seriously (we're currently studying religions of the world)


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Jill said:


> Oooo. I'll be you're popular around Detroit's pub scene!


Especially when they see my Dick DeVos for Governor bumper sticker on my Volvo.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Relayer, good call, the death penalty. I think you were the first to raise it here. My stance is this:

Give me a comfy chair and I'll push the button all day long.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

hockeyinsider said:


> Especially when they see my Dick DeVos for Governor bumper sticker on my Volvo.


 Is he running? Or are you just writing him in?


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I could tell you, but it would scare you to death.


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## JoshuaHManning (Sep 21, 2005)

I think Jill's got the 70/30 split right--at least from what I've seen since I started watching.

As for me, I'm a very conservative republican who wishes he were a libertarian.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Conservative on fiscal and military issues (knew too many people who died on 9/11, I'm mad as hell still).
Moderate on social issues (no to gay marriage, yes to civil unions)
Pro-choice and pro death penalty.
The Catholic Church considers me a cafeteria Catholic, I prefer to call myself a restaurant one (I get better service).
Not too hot on unions.
Ahnold is my hero.
Dream ticket right now is McCain-Guliani.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

KenR said:


> Conservative on fiscal and military issues (knew too many people who died on 9/11, I'm mad as hell still).
> Moderate on social issues (no to gay marriage, yes to civil unions)
> Pro-choice and pro death penalty.
> The Catholic Church considers me a cafeteria Catholic, I prefer to call myself a restaurant one (I get better service).
> ...


McCain would never get the nomination, I don't think. How 'bout Guliani-Rice? or Guliani-Romney?

I actually think Romney is the most electable in many ways. If he (a conservative Morman) can get elected as governor of Massachusetts (one of - if not THE - most liberal states in the union) then he has "appeal". Add to that the fact that he was able to establish some semblance of a health care plan within his state, a project at which no president has been successful in my lifetime... He is extremely articulate, charming and smart.

The most ridiculous reason is that he's extremely handsome. If ya think that doesn't matter, ask the women you know how many voted for Clinton because they thought he was cute. Argh!


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## kronik (Dec 27, 2005)

25 year old leftist with a goatee here.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Jill said:


> McCain would never get the nomination, I don't think. How 'bout Guliani-Rice? or Guliani-Romney?
> 
> I actually think Romney is the most electable in many ways. If he (a conservative Morman) can get elected as governor of Massachusetts (one of - if not THE - most liberal states in the union) then he has "appeal". Add to that the fact that he was able to establish some semblance of a health care plan within his state, a project at which no president has been successful in my lifetime... He is extremely articulate, charming and smart.
> 
> The most ridiculous reason is that he's extremely handsome. If ya think that doesn't matter, ask the women you know how many voted for Clinton because they thought he was cute. Argh!


A pro-choice, pro-homosexual rights Republican (aka Guliani) will never get the party's presidential nomination.

Regarding Rice, she has high-approval numbers because nobody knows where she stands on major - especially social - issues.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

kronik said:


> 25 year old leftist with a goatee here.


Do not worry, you'll probably outgrow that! You know the old saying:

If you're not a socialist at 20, you no heart
If you're still a socialist at 40, you have no brain (or job I like to add)


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Do not worry, you'll probably outgrow that! You know the old saying:
> 
> If you're not a socialist at 20, you no heart
> If you're still a socialist at 40, you have no brain (or job I like to add)


I think it's a rare conservative (and I note that it's mainly conservatives who like to quote this) who can credibly point to evidence of being socialist, or even liberal, at an earlier age.

53-year-old liberal Democrat.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

hockeyinsider said:


> A pro-choice, pro-homosexual rights Republican (aka Guliani) will never get the party's presidential nomination.


 Maybe, but 
1) I think his 9/11 afterglow with the public's perception of his leadership and strength will trump his issues they may find distasteful.
2) I'm about as far as one can get to the right on most issues, and yet I would not vote on those issues, as long as everything else is in line. I really think people over-estimate the power of influence of the "religious right" within the Republican party.



> Regarding Rice, she has high-approval numbers because nobody knows where she stands on major - especially social - issues.


Could be. Then again, if she could get the nomination, perhaps her more moderate positions would pull enough black and female votes from the middle and left to make it happen?! Again, she is (to me anyway) a figure of strength and confidence in a troubled time. And she already knows all her counterparts around the world.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> I think it's a rare conservative (and I note that it's mainly conservatives who like to quote this) who can credibly point to evidence of being socialist, or even liberal, at an earlier age.
> 
> 53-year-old liberal Democrat.


Well you're about to meet one then. Allow me to introduce myself: I grew up in Canada, thought the US was "barbaric" at one time for allowing people not to have "free" access to health care. I used to wonder why OHIP (the provincial healthcare where I grew up) didn't cover everything, such as eye glasses, dental work, and perscriptions. Grew up in a Big 3, BIG UNION ('cause they always yell) town. Most of my uncles and sibs are union members. Thought Reagan was evil (indocrinated by my mother).

Of course conservatives like to quote that; why the hell would a socialist and/or liberal democrat quote it when it not only runs contrary to their thinking, but pretty much insults them? Further, just because one is not a socialist, does not mean one is a "conservative," with all the baggage that label carries in the US.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

> "conservative," with all the baggage that label carries in the US.


Clearly you are Canadian and not fully conservative Wayfarer - here in the US we conservatives have lesser people to carry our baggage _for us_. ...this keeps our hands free so that we may push old ladies down escalators or club seals to death.... you silly foreigner.
javascript:emoticon(':smt064')


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> Clearly you are Canadian and not fully conservative Wayfarer - here in the US we conservatives have lesser people to carry our baggage _for us_. ...this keeps our hands free so that we may push old ladies down escalators or club seals to death.... you silly foreigner.
> javascript:emoticon(':smt064')


Doh, I have to do the bag thing! However, being an aging hockey player, I find I like to use a good shoulder check for old ladies, they will arc nicely on the way down


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

How does the stick do as a stand in for a seal club? Hey, we missed you last night - thought you'd be attending the super secret conference on how to blame Global Warming on the AIDs quilt.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> How does the stick do as a stand in for a seal club? Hey, we missed you last night - thought you'd be attending the super secret conference on how to blame Global Warming on the AIDs quilt.


You want to use an old stick. Cut the blade off then drive a large nail into the end. File the head of the nail to a point. Aim for directly between the eyes and yell, "MOBY DICK!" every time you nail one (so to speak).

No, couldn't make the meeting last night, sorry about that. I was at the one to increase arsenic in the drinking water supply and how to open up ANWAR for unrestricted drilling.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Slaps Wayfarer up side of the head with a signed first edition hardback of SEA OF SLAUGHTER by Farley Mowat and slaps a HAYDUKE LIVES! bumpersticker on his vehicle before fading into the Hoodoo shapes of Saquaro shadows on a horse held by Jack Burns.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Kav said:


> Slap...a HAYDUKE LIVES! bumpersticker ...


_Desert Solitaire_ is a wonderful book. I've read other essays by Abbey, but never ventured into his fiction. I need to read the _Brave Cowboy_.

Have you read any Wendell Berry?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Yes, just about everything. Some people find Cactus Eds fiction a little less 'polished' than his essays. Judy Bari was downright insulting to the man who both invented and was invention to her EARTH FIRST! activist base.I rattled her sincere, but dogmatic cage by saying she needed more manly men in her life. I had the Honour of meeting Abbey at the symbolic cracking of the dam. I'm the tall guy obscuring his face from potential survelliance. DreamGarden Press prints the ultimate edition of The Monkeywrench Gang with illustrations by R.Crumb. Their SLC bookstore also offers rare first editions of western literature including my favourite, B.Traven. But back to our transplanted bagpipe player, A Monty Python slap on the face with a fish sir!


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## gregp (Aug 11, 2005)

*Nope*



NewYorkBuck said:


> My leanings? Hard to sum them up w one party. But I suppose I am one of the few people in the world who has been a member of both the NRA and the Sierra Club at the same time.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

*Sanitized killing done Lay-Z-Boy style*

Grotesque notion.

Without the comfy chair and button, could you twist the knife? That's the real question.



Wayfarer said:


> Relayer, good call, the death penalty. I think you were the first to raise it here. My stance is this:
> 
> Give me a comfy chair and I'll push the button all day long.


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## Patrick M Thayer (Dec 24, 2004)

If you want to know what I think, read Ann Coulter. --No kidding!


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Patrick M Thayer said:


> If you want to know what I think, read Ann Coulter. --No kidding!


Congratulations on your obvious intelligence and insight. I assume you'll be promtply adjusting your thinking to include Ms. Coulter's recent analysis of Bill Clinton's sexuality:

DEUTSCH: OK, say it on air.

Ms. COULTER: I think that sort of rampant promiscuity does show some level of latent homosexuality.

DEUTSCH: OK, I think you need to say that again. That Bill Clinton, you think on some level, has - is a latent homosexual, is that what you're saying?
Ms. COULTER: Yeah. I mean, not sort of just completely anonymous - I don't know if you read the Starr report, the rest of us were glued to it, I have many passages memorized. No, there was more plot and dialogue in a porno movie.

The conversation swings a bit before Deutsch moves it back to Big Gay Bill.

DEUTSCH: I'm not paying any attention. I'm still stuck on Bill Clinton. Don't - now, isn't that an example of mean-spirted? Isn't that just a mean-spirited low blow? No pun intended.

Ms. COULTER: No. Which part of what I said?

DEUTSCH: I think this&#8230;

Ms. COULTER: Well, you can read high crimes and misdemeanors if he wants some low blows.

DEUTSCH: OK. No, no. Here's a - here's a president of the United States&#8230;

Ms. COULTER: There's merely a comment.

DEUTSCH: &#8230;a former president of the United States, and just saying, `You know what? I think he has latent homosexual tendencies.'

Ms. COULTER: No. I think anyone with that level of promiscuity where, you know, you - I mean, he didn't know Monica's name until their sixth sexual encounter. There is something that is - that is of the bathhouse about that.

DEUTSCH: But what is the homosexual - that's - you could say somebody who maybe doesn't celebrate women the way he should or just is that he's a hound dog?

Ms. COULTER: No. It's just random, is this obsession with his&#8230;

DEUTSCH: But where's the - but where's the homosexual part of that? I'm - once again, I'm speechless here.

Ms. COULTER: It's reminiscent of a bathhouse. It's just this obsession with your own - with your own essence.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

She does seem to be a bit incendiary.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

acidicboy said:


> what about the members outside the united states?


I am a card-carrying member fo the French Socialist Party. In France, this puts me fairly left-of-center. I guess in the current policital spectrum in America, I would be somewhere deep in the left.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

BertieW said:


> Grotesque notion.
> 
> Without the comfy chair and button, could you twist the knife? That's the real question.


Bertie, sure thing. Hell man, I would use my hands if the situation called for it. When you have someone video-taped using a sawed off shotgun at point blank range on a little old lady, I would take great pleasure in doing it real slowly too. I would guess you are a Kant fan (do not know why, just seems like you might), and I am sure he would back the deontological nature of the act.

Keep in mind, one must disassociate the issue of capital punishment from other issues, such as vagracies in its application. I can see the various and sundry red herrings being brought up, I am strictly dealing with the philosophical issue of the State executing someone.

Now my question to you, if someone hideously tortured, raped, and murdered your wife, could you see him set free on a technicality? Or "forgive" him as he had a rough upbringing?


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## arbitrage (Jan 13, 2006)

Aren't we supposed to "understand" them and turn them loose because we don't believe in punishment or personal responsibility? Oh sorry, it is torture to give someone 3 square meals a day and roof over there head.



Wayfarer said:


> Now my question to you, if someone hideously tortured, raped, and murdered your wife, could you see him set free on a technicality? Or "forgive" him as he had a rough upbringing?


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

jackmccullough said:


> Congratulations on your obvious intelligence and insight. I assume you'll be promtply adjusting your thinking to include Ms. Coulter's recent analysis of Bill Clinton's sexuality...


Jack, I agree that this little off-the-cuff comment / line of thinking is just silly, at best. Probably a theory she and her girlfriends worked up one night after 2 or 3 too many chardonnays! I could quote just as many ridiculous quote from leftist pundits, which - if pushed, would probably admit that they regretted saying it.

I'm not defending her, as she seems to take great joy in tossing out controversial barbs like this. I think she hurts her own credibility. If you can strip away the acerbic facade, though, she's a very bright woman. And her books are VERY well researched and subsequently foot-noted. If you are a leftist, then I'm sure you would not agree with her conclusions. But if you could force yourself to read some of her serious writing, I think you would find -as I have-that the facts are (or at least seem to be) very accurate, credible and insightful. Unfortunately, it's difficult to lay out the history, details, analysis and conclusion of an entire issue, within a soundbite or 5 minute interview, so she resorts to the jabs. It's her MO. I wish she didn't do it, because I think it hurts the credibility of not only herself, but by extension the entire issue at hand.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I'm writing from the office right now, but at home I have one or two sites bookmarked that have exhaustively researched her factual claims and found them to be full of distortions and fabrications. Footnotes aren't everything.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Jill said:


> And her books are VERY well researched and subsequently foot-noted. If you are a leftist, then I'm sure you would not agree with her conclusions. But if you could force yourself to read some of her serious writing, I think you would find -as I have-that the facts are (or at least seem to be) very accurate, credible and insightful.


Leaving aside recent accusations of plagiarism against Coulter and focusing just on inaccuracy:

In today's New York Times, a scientist writes that Coulter misused his research about Global Warming:

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/27/opinion/27doran.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Older stuff about Coulter playing loose with facts:


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I would take great pleasure in doing it real slowly too.


OK, you're wierd and kind of sadistic.

There are some arguments for capital punishment that one may see some logic in but but disagree with, as I do.

But anyone who would take pleasure in killing another person slowly is not healthy.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

arbitrage said:


> Aren't we supposed to "understand" them and turn them loose because we don't believe in punishment or personal responsibility? Oh sorry, it is torture to give someone 3 square meals a day and roof over there head.


Uh-huh......

Because you hear people saying that every day, right?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gmac said:


> OK, you're wierd and kind of sadistic.
> 
> There are some arguments for capital punishment that one may see some logic in but but disagree with, as I do.
> 
> But anyone who would take pleasure in killing another person slowly is not healthy.


Never said I was healthy. In fact, I will tell you up front I just a barbarian in a nicely cut suit. If a 22 year old strapping hulk of a man can shoot a little old lady point blank with a sawed off shotgun in the face, I am fully capable of making him aware of his shortcomings as he goes on to his just rewards. Mind you, my ability to be barbaric is limited to such situations, I would not be able to, say, back a country or religion that routinely encourages teenagers to strap bombs onto themselves and blow up busloads of children. No, I am not nearly refined as you.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Life in prison, no parole.

But that's me. I don't even step on ants.

Mind you, I have no qualms about self defence. There, I might beat you to the holster, but I'd find no pleasure in it.



Wayfarer said:


> Bertie, sure thing. Hell man, I would use my hands if the situation called for it. When you have someone video-taped using a sawed off shotgun at point blank range on a little old lady, I would take great pleasure in doing it real slowly too. I would guess you are a Kant fan (do not know why, just seems like you might), and I am sure he would back the deontological nature of the act.
> 
> Keep in mind, one must disassociate the issue of capital punishment from other issues, such as vagracies in its application. I can see the various and sundry red herrings being brought up, I am strictly dealing with the philosophical issue of the State executing someone.
> 
> Now my question to you, if someone hideously tortured, raped, and murdered your wife, could you see him set free on a technicality? Or "forgive" him as he had a rough upbringing?


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Over the years I've developed my own view of how the death penalty should be adminstered. I believe that it should be reserved for criminals whose actions are meant to undermine the state; sedition, treason, terrorism but really any crime that threatens the security of the state itself. Organized gangs for instance I believe should fall into this category (mafia and street gangs included). Home grown guerrilas and those involved in the separatist movement (Tim McVeigh). Murder only as it relates to an attempt to undermine the state.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Mind you, my ability to be barbaric is limited to such situations, I would not be able to, say, back a country or religion that routinely encourages teenagers to strap bombs onto themselves and blow up busloads of children. No, I am not nearly refined as you.


Where have I "backed" anything of the sort?

Making things up to justify the pleasure you would take in slowly killing another human being does not serve to make the board think you are anything but one sick individual.

And, no, you are not nearly as refined as me either. I think that is perfectly clear.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gmac said:


> Where have I "backed" anything of the sort?
> 
> Making things up to justify the pleasure you would take in slowly killing another human being does not serve to make the board think you are anything but one sick individual.
> 
> And, no, you are not nearly as refined as me either. I think that is perfectly clear.


You really have not been paying much attention if you think I feel I need to justify anything to anyone. Further, the issue is rendering justice, not killing. Leave it to a simple mind to not be able to discern one act from another. And again gmac, you deeming me "sick" only confirms for me my position is the moral one.

And as far was what the board can see, I think we can all figure out who is rabidly anti-Israel and pro-teenage, government backed suicide bombers. Oh yes, we all clearly see that.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> You really have not been paying much attention if you think I feel I need to justify anything to anyone.


I think the issue is more that you are incapable rather than unwilling to justify your desire to slowly kill a person.



Wayfarer said:


> Further, the issue is rendering justice, not killing. Leave it to a simple mind to not be able to discern one act from another.


This is rendering justice?



Wayfarer said:


> Hell man, I would use my hands if the situation called for it. When you have someone video-taped using a sawed off shotgun at point blank range on a little old lady, I would take great pleasure in doing it real slowly too.


You obviously have great deal more in common with the terrorists than one might have thought........



wayfarer said:


> And again gmac, you deeming me "sick" only confirms for me my position is the moral one.
> 
> And as far was what the board can see, I think we can all figure out who is rabidly anti-Israel and pro-teenage, government backed suicide bombers. Oh yes, we all clearly see that.


Yawn.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

crs said:


> Leaving aside recent accusations of plagiarism against Coulter and focusing just on inaccuracy


 That accusation was quickly proven inaccurate.



> Older stuff about Coulter playing loose with facts..


I would agree that she is prone, at times, to hyperbole. Again, I don't like it when people do that, because it serves to cast suspicion on the verity of other things they say.

Don't have time this second, but I'll take a look at those links though. Thanks.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Jill said:


> That accusation was quickly proven inaccurate.


I would say "proven inaccurate" would be overly generous and, well, inaccurate. The syndicate that distributes her columns said it doesn't believe Coulter committed plagiarism. "There are only so many ways you can rewrite a fact and minimal matching text is not plagiarism," Lee Salem, editor and president of Universal Press Syndicate, said.

That is the syndicate's opinion (or stance) but not a fact. Nothing was proved or disproved; it is not a pregnancy test, but a subjective analysis by those who read her work compared against those she was alleged to have plagiarized. Cynics might argue that Universal Press Syndicate makes a lot of money from distributing Coulter's work and went easy on her. Cynics made a similar argument a couple years ago when a widely syndicated Detroit Free Press sports columnist was given only a suspension for a fabrication rather than the termination many in the business believed he deserved. Not all plagiarists and fabricators are treated equally, unfortunately.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

On the Coulter thing. It's the breed. Liberal or conservative, most of these political commentators and pundits are undignified and nasty. Coulter says what she said about President Clinton. Plenty of disrespect (Molly Ivins, etc) is hurled at Bush. 

An angry place...we could use some more Doles, Ribicoffs and Saltonstalls whom people would actually respect making statements in public.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

This childish game of bashing President Bush, Former President Clinton and others is so much confetti thrown to obscure the dog and pony show elements of both political parties are participating in. There are issues and work to be done instead.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Jill said:


> I was thinking there for a minute that Zell Miller had joined us. I hate to be the one to break it to ya, sweetie, but you're no longer a Democrat!:icon_cheers:


In response to your Zell Miller comment, while I agree with some of his ideas, I actually find more in common with Dick Gephardt, Joe Lieberman and Dianne Feinstein. I used the term conservative as opposed to the current definition of "liberal." The Democratic Party has been ruined by the Michael Moores, Ted Ralls, and Hollywood stars of the world. Blind hate for the GOP is not the answer to our problems...neither is NARAL. Why is it that only the extreme leftists are allowed a voice within the party? Do you honestly think the DNC of today is the same party of Roosevelt, Truman or JFK? So, to correct you...it is _you_ who are no longer a Democrat.


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

Jill said:


> If he (a conservative Morman) can get elected as governor of Massachusetts (one of - if not THE - most liberal states in the union) then he has "appeal".


His election had nothing to do with "appeal" and everything to do with the mechanics of getting through a state-wide democratic primary/convention in Massachusetts. Massachusetts, like nearly every state starting from New York to the north and east with a significant urban city environment (NY, RI, CT, Mass, NJ), is a machine democratic state. To run in a state-wide election, a Democrat has to make a lot of deals. And that adds baggage.

A Republican just has to show up, look better, and promise to run the state efficiently without corruption. Fundamental economic policy stays strongly liberal. Everybody knows that the Republican isn't touching social policy. They'll talk, but that's all they'll do.

edit:

in any event, romney wouldn't make it through the republican primaries, due to his religion.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

I'm a PJ O'Rourke Republican.

That means I like to get drunk and drive fast, but not on the same day.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

That's exactly right, Laxplayer. Michael Moore, Howard Dean, George Soros, moveon.org, and Cindy Sheehan have become the face and voice of today's Democratic party.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Armed leftist*

I am pretty far to the left.

Ideologically anarchist-socialist. (In high school I was probably a moderate Democrat, by my mid-20's a Democratic Socialist. By the time I reached 40 I had become an Anarchist. At 61 I am more than ever an Anarchist. FWIW I have read Adam Smith, Ricardo, Malthus, as well as Marx et al., and most of the Anarchists.)

Registered Peace and Freedom Party member. (I generally vote for Democratic candidates. I did once work on behalf of and vote for a Republican in a local election. He subsequently stabbed me in the back.)
Pro abortion.
Pro union.
Favor same sex marriage, if that's what those concerned want.
Oppose death penalty.
Quite willing to shoot intruders. 
Favor universal health coverage.
Against the current war. (I actively opposed the Viet Nam war.)
Favor legalization of all drugs.
Environmentalist. 
Atheist.
Enjoy dressing well.
Personally temperate.
Omniverous.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

Gurdon said:


> I am pretty far to the left...


Gurdon ~ I'd agree with your candid assessment. With the possible exceptions of right-to-bare-arms-against-prospective-intruder, dressing well :devil: and your omniverosity... you're definitely a major lefty!! But I like you, in spite of it!! I respect your self-awareness!


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*mutual respect*

Jill,

Likewise.

I used to get a kick out of the bomb-makers with whom my father worked at Sandia in the 60's. On my visits they'd assume exaggerated positions on guns, hunting, etc., based on incorrect assumptions about my views. I could usually shoot better than they and frequently drank them under the table, so we got along pretty well.

Like many with childhood ranching experience, I grew up assuming that poor people had to eat steak. We had lots of cows and very little money. One of my parents' worst arguments was over my mother having driven a long way, probably to Santa Fe, to buy artichokes for a dollar a piece. This was in 1949, when a dollar was a lot of money. I am still especially fond of steak and artichokes.

Come to think of it, perhaps a way to distinguish between lefties and those on the right is by how we like our steaks prepared. I like mine blood rare, blu, as the French describe it. My youngest son, who is somewhat conservative, prefers his cooked medium.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply,
Gurdon


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