# Did you see KJP got married?



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Geez, he's blowing up my facebook newsfeed! Ah, good for him. I didn't realize he was old enough to be dating someone for 15 years though? Click below, if you dare.

https://www.boredpanda.com/christmas-tree-farm-wedding-sarah-vickers-kiel-patrick/

Brian


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Sorry, who the hell is he?


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

SG_67 said:


> Sorry, who the hell is he?


He sells things w/ anchors on them.

Brian


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## 3piece (Jan 22, 2014)

SG_67 said:


> Sorry, who the hell is he?


Members are probably more familiar with the bride https://www.classygirlswearpearls.com/


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

What is with the blatant photoshopping? And does anyone else think his hairline is looking a bit "enhanced"? It must be weird to make yourself into an internet character. I guess you can write your wedding off as an advertising expense at least.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

3piece said:


> Members are probably more familiar with the bride https://www.classygirlswearpearls.com/


Haven't a clue who she is.


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## 3piece (Jan 22, 2014)

SG_67 said:


> Haven't a clue who she is.


 She's made appearances in that trad girlfriends thread


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> Sorry, who the hell is he?


I am with you on this one. I haven't the foggiest. Never heard of him. Muffy's son? lol


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

I clicked just to see if it was to a woman. I am somewhat glad to see that it was.

Seller of things with anchors is apt. I think he did pointless braided bracelets of a nautical theme that were, seriously, meant for men? And expensive belts made of parachute cord or something?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

3piece said:


> She's made appearances in that trad girlfriends thread


She's a porn star?


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

3piece said:


> She's made appearances in that trad girlfriends thread


Her friends are pretty hot too.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Man, what has become of the Trad Forum when regulars don't know who KJP and Sarah Vickers are?! I'm not saying they represent what the forum is about, but this place used to be very up on the preppy scene....some of the more modern-day incarnations of ivy/trad/prep. Not so much any more, I guess.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Her friends are pretty hot too.


Amen brother.


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## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

Weird all photographed and posted on the web. I thought they would keep it private.

It seems every bit of their fake preppy lifestyle is photo documented. She is very easy to look at though.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

KJP also did collaborations with Brooks Brothers:


i never understood why people found him so offensive, I want to say I remember adoucett meeting him and saying he was a pretty nice guy.


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## rmpmcdermott (Oct 27, 2015)

FLCracka said:


> Man, what has become of the Trad Forum when regulars don't know who KJP and Sarah Vickers are?! I'm not saying they represent what the forum is about, but this place used to be very up on the preppy scene....some of the more modern-day incarnations of ivy/trad/prep. Not so much any more, I guess.


Honestly, I thought they were just illustrations from the Official Preppy Handbook. (i.e. satire)

edit: That was meant in jest, btw. If they're happy then I wish them a long and wonderful marriage.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

Any relation to Muffin Albright or whatever her name is...the farcical woman who seems to have very thin skin?


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

smmrfld said:


> Any relation to Muffin Albright or whatever her name is...the farcical woman who seems to have very thin skin?


Whatever happened to that guy who would come on here and defend Muffy and her ridiculous lifestyle?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

drlivingston said:


> Whatever happened to that guy who would come on here and defend Muffy and her ridiculous lifestyle?


boatswaindog is currently typing up his wife Sarah's latest diatribe about St Paul, probably.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

smmrfld said:


> Any relation to Muffin Albright or whatever her name is...the farcical woman who seems to have very thin skin?


But of course.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Perhaps it's an age thing on my part, but jeez-Louise, that's a couple minutes of my life I will never be able to get back. What a waste!


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

So _that's_ what Maris Crane looked like.

She is a bit creepy hot based the photos and back story that's coming out in this thread.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

smmrfld said:


> Any relation to Muffin Albright or whatever her name is...the farcical woman who seems to have very thin skin?


After Muffum departed from the accessible internet, I thought she might have resurfaced writing the copy for the last few Bills catalogs. Her notion of purchasable "authenticity" resonated, and the prices in the catalogs reflected the ridiculous element of her persona. Apparently, the subtext of "Buy this overpriced stuff and you can be just as authentic as we are," is wearing thin in at least two contexts.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Say what y'all will about Muffster but she rings much truer than these photo-promo try-hards. One could pretend that she was just a cranky bored rich lady and not a greedy entrepeneur, which is so not coming through with this pair.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

Tempest said:


> greedy entrepeneur,


 This phrase confuses me, and how does it apply to this couple? This isn't a baited question, I really have no idea and am curious. I'll admit to taking a peak at the "classy girls" website from time to time and justify it to myself as a guilty pleasure. Aside from that, I really don't know much about the pair.

I'll agree that everything appears at best staged and at worst probably phony. They are of the instagram generation after all, one which seems more concerned with creating the image, rather than living in the actual moment.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

For a bunch of dudes who talk about clothes on the Internet, we sure sometimes have funny ideas of how worthwhile other people's lifestyle choices are.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Orgetorix said:


> For a bunch of dudes who talk about clothes on the Internet, we sure sometimes have funny ideas of how worthwhile other people's lifestyle choices are.


+1 million. Thanks Org. It's a little sad what has become of this forum over the years.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

August West said:


> They are of the instagram generation after all, one which seems more concerned with creating the image, rather than living in the actual moment.


That's it exactly with the commercial identity inextricably attached. Muff had the pretense of a cause beyond lucre or vanity, and that's the difference that I see. When she's photographed out on a boat or holding a chicken, it actually looked like a captured moment and not staged.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

Tempest said:


> That's it exactly with the commercial identity inextricably attached. Muff had the pretense of a cause beyond lucre or vanity, and that's the difference that I see. When she's photographed out on a boat or holding a chicken, it actually looked like a captured moment and not staged.


I don't see how that makes them greedy though, I see it at as more of a generational difference than anything else. If they can figure out a way to making a living from essentially doing what most of their peers are doing in their free time, I say more power to them.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

FLCracka said:


> +1 million. Thanks Org. It's a little sad what has become of this forum over the years.


So what _has_ become of this forum over the years?


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## ouinon (Jun 28, 2015)

David J. Cooper said:


> Weird all photographed and posted on the web. I thought they would keep it private.
> 
> It seems every bit of their fake preppy lifestyle is photo documented.


I suspect that they did indeed keep their wedding private, she's been wearing her band for a few weeks now and he's shared references to their marriage on his more personal social media.

Their instagram accounts and blogs are extensions of their company's brand. From behind-the-scenes stuff I've seen, they work hard staging, shooting, and editing the photos they post on those outlets. You'll notice there isn't an officiant standing under the wedding arch with them.

It took me a while to figure out too, but once you realize what you're looking at is new media advertising the uncanniness doesn't seem so strange. He's described it as "New England Fantasy", it's meant to be a little bit larger-than-life.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Orgetorix said:


> For a bunch of dudes who talk about clothes on the Internet, we sure sometimes have funny ideas of how worthwhile other people's lifestyle choices are.


Exactly what I was thinking


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

August West said:


> I don't see how that makes them greedy though, I see it at as more of a generational difference than anything else. If they can figure out a way to making a living from essentially doing what most of their peers are doing in their free time, I say more power to them.


You've answered your own question. It seems none of their actions are free of connections to commerce. This is Kardashianism.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

CSG said:


> So _that's_ what Maris Crane looked like.
> .


I admit... I actually laughed out loud.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CSG said:


> So what _has_ become of this forum over the years?


Several high profile members are trolls, apparently. Eh, FL?


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

Well, that's not much of an answer but maybe it's become a bit effete and exclusionary?


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Shaver said:


> Several high profile members are trolls, apparently. Eh, FL?


High profile, huh? A little self-aggrandizing, no?


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

CSG said:


> So what _has_ become of this forum over the years?


It has become a place where anyone who deviates from The Uniform, as laid down by Saint Harris himself, is mocked snidely and mercilessly. Where anyone who dares to be conspicuously young or the least bit fashion-inclined is written off as a stupid hipster, where members wait, slavering at the mailbox, for the next release of Brooks Brothers merchandise so they can compete to be the first to deride new offerings, and where we clutch at our pearls whenever some entrepreneur dares to cultivate a particular image for their brand so that he or she can, y'know, make a living.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

FLCracka said:


> High profile, huh? A little self-aggrandizing, no?


You and me both, old boy. :great:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Orgetorix said:


> It has become a place where anyone who deviates from The Uniform, as laid down by Saint Harris himself, is mocked snidely and mercilessly. Where anyone who dares to be conspicuously young or the least bit fashion-inclined is written off as a stupid hipster, where members wait, slavering at the mailbox, for the next release of Brooks Brothers merchandise so they can compete to be the first to deride new offerings, and where we clutch at our pearls whenever some entrepreneur dares to cultivate a particular image for their brand so that he or she can, y'know, make a living.


I would dispute this- the forum is much more inclusive now than in years gone by.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

Orgetorix said:


> It has become a place where anyone who deviates from The Uniform, as laid down by Saint Harris himself, is mocked snidely and mercilessly. Where anyone who dares to be conspicuously young or the least bit fashion-inclined is written off as a stupid hipster, where members wait, slavering at the mailbox, for the next release of Brooks Brothers merchandise so they can compete to be the first to deride new offerings, and where we clutch at our pearls whenever some entrepreneur dares to cultivate a particular image for their brand so that he or she can, y'know, make a living.


That made me LOL. I don't know how true it is but that was a wonderful word picture.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Sorry but who the hell are these people and why should we care? Why is Muffy's collar popped?


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

I think KJP is like a singular Shep and Ian that actually hasn't moved production to China yet. And he knows Muffy!


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I am unimpressed.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

He married some girl he met in a Christmas tree farm after fifteen years. How trad is that?! They don't use fake trees. Or marry while still fertile. So Olde New England nautical blah blah! And they have gobs of photos of themselves on the internets, so you know they are really important.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Ha ha, yeah, right.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't understand the animosity directed toward KJP or Vickers. 

You have to understand that their online persona and brand are the same thing. Their "prep fantasy" online existence is all about marketing their products. I don't mind checking out "Classy Girls Wear Pearls" once in a while. The girls are cute and everyone looks like they're having a good time staging their prep fantasy.

Once that is accepted, I don't see the need for criticism. And I don't have any desire to acquire one of his bracelets.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm neither critical nor accepting. I just don't see the point.


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## Ekphrastic (Oct 4, 2009)

drlivingston said:


> I admit... I actually laughed out loud.


Yep, me, too. During my [slightly wayward] youth as an actor, I actually had small roles on _Frasier_ twice. Really nice folks. (It was during Kelsey's cocaine days, so I didn't see him much, but everyone else was great.) The Cranes have a dear place in my heart.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

ouinon said:


> I suspect that they did indeed keep their wedding private, she's been wearing her band for a few weeks now and he's shared references to their marriage on his more personal social media.
> 
> Their instagram accounts and blogs are extensions of their company's brand. From behind-the-scenes stuff I've seen, they work hard staging, shooting, and editing the photos they post on those outlets. You'll notice there isn't an officiant standing under the wedding arch with them.
> 
> It took me a while to figure out too, but once you realize what you're looking at is new media advertising the uncanniness doesn't seem so strange. He's described it as "New England Fantasy", it's meant to be a little bit larger-than-life.


I agree 100%. Their "lifestyle" is their brand. Did they really meet 15 years ago and plant a tree? Who knows! They are internet personas, in real life I'm sure they are similar, but not all the way turned up to 11.

In terms of his product, I woudn't buy it, but I'm not his target audience. How many of us wore sailor bracelets of something similar in our teens? Kudos to him, he created/discovered a niche and filled it, creating jobs along the way. His persona is over the top, but it goes along w/ the territory.

Now, if he could stop constantly reposting the same article about their "wedding", I'd appreciate it 

Brian


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

FLCracka said:


> +1 million. Thanks Org. It's a little sad what has become of this forum over the years.


Very sad indeed.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

So, we're a forum that's about learning and sharing about good taste in Trad clothing. Check. 

So, if we should witness a couple who are selling products online, intertwined with their "lifestyle" - which by all appearances is mainly about packaging themselves and their carefully constructed & choreographed lives as part of the very wares they advertise - we're supposed to either praise them; or, studiously withhold judgement with regard to their taste either in clothes or in their broader choices.

Do I have that right?


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Califax said:


> - which by all appearances is mainly about packaging themselves and their carefully constructed & choreographed lives as part of the very wares they advertise -
> 
> Do I have that right?


It's called marketing. Personally I couldn't care less about KJP, Muffy, Ian and Shep or any of the others. They don't affect my choices at all. I don't need a "Trad Guiding Light".

To be honest I don't even know who the hell KJP is nor do I care. I understand now that he sells items with an anchor motif that may or may not be for men and they may or may not be trad. If you like anchors and what he sells then buy it.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> It's called marketing.


And that's^ called equivocation.

Of course there's marketing involved; and I have nothing whatsoever against marketing.

So, your point is what again?


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Shaver said:


> Several high profile members are trolls, apparently. Eh, FL?


Happy to be a low profile member. It allows one to troll under the radar. :hidden:


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Califax said:


> And that's^ called equivocation.
> 
> Of course there's marketing involved; and I have nothing whatsoever against marketing.
> 
> So, your point is what again?


The point is that all of this chatter about KJP and Muffy is totally irrelevant to anything. It matters none. Comprende?


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

CrescentCityConnection said:


> The point is that all of this chatter about KJP and Muffy is totally irrelevant to anything. It matters none. Comprende?


Then why are you so worked up about it if it "matters none"? Or is "irrelevant"? It seems to bother you when people pass judgement on them.


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## CrescentCityConnection (Sep 24, 2007)

Califax said:


> Then why are you so worked up about it if it "matters none"? Or is "irrelevant"? It seems to bother you when people pass judgement on them.


It doesn't! I digress.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

So I was at Brooks tonight and happened to stumble upon this display.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

FLCracka said:


> So I was at Brooks tonight and happened to stumble upon this display.


So how many did you pick up?


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## Oldsport (Jan 3, 2012)

Can someone please explain what this guy and his wife have done that has caused people to flame them like this?? This thread is disgusting ...


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I know!!! Leave them alone. They're not worth the attention, either negative or positive. This is like a piece you'd see in People magazine or the Enquirer.


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## ouinon (Jun 28, 2015)

Califax said:


> Then why are you so worked up about it if it "matters none"? Or is "irrelevant"? It seems to bother you when people pass judgement on them.


I think it's just a little discordant to have members of a forum that touts itself as the last word in gentlemanliness being so damn sanctimonious. Join GOMI if you wanna snark about his hairline.

I want to note that I'm not calling out you, Califax, or even this thread in particular. But people are lamenting the current state of the site and imo this attitude is a big part of the problem. A thread in the Fashion Forum disappeared altogether after a couple pages of a newbie being railed for wearing jeans with blazers. I'm not sure if something bigger went down or the OP deleted it himself, but it's a sign of the atmosphere for sure.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

Honestly, I'd never heard of them until a few days ago. While their merchandise is not for me, I greatly admire their marketing by selling a lifestyle (which seems to be fantasized) on social media. They are clever like Ralph Lauren was clever. I admire them for their gumption and, apparent, success. And if she were blonde, she would be the real life embodiment of Maris Crane. He looks a bit dorky and tries a little too hard. Compensating, I suppose for his lack of formal education but she pulls it off.

They are the Pepsi generation of prep.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)




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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Much ado... . Good grief.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

They live in your heads.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Get them out, get them out!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

It seems that rose coloured spectacles really* are* Trad.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

The hanging fleece logo (to the right of the KJP sign) has been a theme of heraldic design for centuries. The particular variant shown here would seem to be more closely aligned with a design originating in Leeds, England, and still employed on various civic emblems. More details here:

.



FLCracka said:


> So I was at Brooks tonight and happened to stumble upon this display.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ his anchor logo looks like a ripoff of the emblem of "The Brothers of the Holy Cross".


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Indeed so. The little blighter has merely snatched two (reasonably) well known symbols, for reasons that would seem obscure.....


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Shaver said:


> Indeed so. The little blighter has merely snatched two (reasonably) well known symbols, for reasons that would seem obscure.....


Shaver, there has been a vote and it's unanimous. The membership feels that you should lose all posting privileges on the Trad Forum for not knowing that the hanging fleece logo on the right of the sign has been the Brooks Brothers logo for the last 197 years.

The line in my pic is a collaboration, so the sign features KJP's logo as well as the BB logo.

Seriously, though, I am astounded you didn't know that was the Brooks logo.....unless you're really just....nope, not gonna say it.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I genuinely did not know that.

I am aware of BB of course, have even popped into one of their stores, but it would seem that the corporate logo has failed to penetrate my psyche. This said, if you removed the text from many corporate logos I should be unable to readily identify them.

Try this little test: https://www.businessinsider.com/log...e-name-removed-from-the-logo-2013-1?op=1&IR=T

At any rate, the chances of a unanimous vote on this forum are approaching zero.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Shaver said:


> At any rate, the chances of a unanimous vote on this forum are approaching zero.


This actually made me laugh out loud!


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> I don't understand the animosity directed toward KJP or Vickers.


I see it more as analysis of the topic. The topic is clothing branding and marketing at a rather meta level.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

FLCracka said:


> Shaver, there has been a vote and it's unanimous. The membership feels that you should lose all posting privileges on the Trad Forum for not knowing that the hanging fleece logo on the right of the sign has been the Brooks Brothers logo for the last 197 years.
> 
> The line in my pic is a collaboration, so the sign features KJP's logo as well as the BB logo.
> 
> Seriously, though, I am astounded you didn't know that was the Brooks logo.....unless you're really just....nope, not gonna say it.


+1

Shaver, here's a little reading for you: https://www.getkempt.com/article/logo-week-brooks-brothers-and-the-order-of-the-golden-fleece


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Memorising the brand identity of clothes that I do not wear is not so high on my list of priorities, for reasons which currently escape me.

Now, you may wish to be sitting down before you read on but, brace yourself.........



I cannot recite the serial numbers of cordovan shoes.

I know, I know, utterly shocking isn't it?


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Not quite the same thing, I'm afraid. 

By the way, Ralph Lauren uses a polo player astride a horse for his logo.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> Not quite the same thing, I'm afraid.
> 
> By the way, Ralph Lauren uses a polo player astride a horse for his logo.


Well, of course, no comparison can be said to be 'quite the same thing' if you wish to be pedantic about it.

We have Lauren in England, a 'luxury' label for folks with no taste. Brooks, on the other hand, is not so well represented.

Do remember that what may be of terrible importance to you can be of no consequence whatsoever to others.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaver said:


> Do remember that what may be of terrible importance to you can be of no consequence whatsoever to others.


It's not that the logo is of great importance to me. But after posting for years in the Trad forum, one would think that an encounter would have been made at some point along the way.

At any rate, glad to help a Brit learn something about Ivy Style clothing.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

Can we PLEASE get back to talking about the creepy hot Stacy?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> It's not that the logo is of great importance to me. But after posting for years in the Trad forum, one would think that an encounter would have been made at some point along the way.
> 
> At any rate, glad to help a Brit learn something about Ivy Style clothing.


Well, for my part, I am glad that you are glad. I like to spread a little joy in my wake.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

gamma68 said:


> +1
> 
> Shaver, here's a little reading for you: https://www.getkempt.com/article/logo-week-brooks-brothers-and-the-order-of-the-golden-fleece


An interesting bit of history regarding the Golden Fleece...adds a measure of substance to the logo, that here-to-fore was perhaps not there. Now where-oh-where can I find a Golden Fleece on a gold neck chain?


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## Roycru (Apr 13, 2011)

Whilst on the subject of brand logos, anyone else still have one of these belts?


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Is the mallet being used to strike a ball or is simply for taming the gator?


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

drlivingston said:


> Is the mallet being used to strike a ball or is simply for taming the gator?


It's for striking the ball. Have you never played water polo?


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Tempest said:


> It's for striking the ball. Have you never played water polo?


My apologies... I thought that polo gators were a bit longer.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Well, it ought to be said that Alligator Polo doesn't involve normal or typical gators. There are only a few farms that raise them, two of them are in Florida I think. The gators are smaller and much tamer than wild gators, but they're still extremely fast. The mallets used are much shorter than polo mallets. Also, they don't play in water, lol. It's a special mud that they import from Brazil; and yes there's a lot of water involved but it has to have a certain consistency to allow the ball to skitter and splash and just enough viscosity to support it when it's still. The game's a mess but it looks like a lot of fun. The spectators sit fairly far away and watch with binoculars.


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

These folks are trying way too hard to be "preppy." Far too contrived.

Clearly a couple of average middle class people trying to look the part and sell a few items in the interim. 

More power to them if they can get impressionable people to buy their wears. However, I highly doubt you will see 
true trads pay any attention to the make believe lifestyle they are portraying. 

I have wasted three minutes of my life that I will never get back. No more.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

At Law said:


> These folks are trying way too hard to be "preppy." Far too contrived.
> 
> Clearly a couple of average middle class people trying to look the part and sell a few items in the interim.
> 
> ...


Pfff. Please. You could say the same thing, word-for-word, about Ralph and Ricky Lauren. His peddling of a lifestyle is/was no different thank KJP and Co. nor is it any more/less reprehensible, yet his mark on both the fashion world and trad/preppy is undeniable.

A few years ago, KJP was making trinkets above his parents' garage and selling them to classmates. Since then, his business has grown by leaps and bounds in a short time while still keeping his production and sourcing of materials in the USA. I'd say that's worthy of admiration whether you like his products or not. Of course his lifestyle is totally contrived and it saturates social media, but that's how you market yourself to the current generation.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

At Law said:


> These folks are trying way too hard to be "preppy." Far too contrived.


^^ X 1000!



At Law said:


> I have wasted three minutes of my life that I will never get back. No more.


^^ X ∞


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

hardline_42 said:


> Of course his lifestyle is totally contrived and it saturates social media, but that's how you market yourself to the current generation.


I hate to use the sprezzatura term, but it's apt because this lacks it. The effort and artifice are visible, and that is a problem. It is the difference between a dancer that performs flawlessly while looking conchalant and one whose effort and concentration is visible.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

hardline_42 said:


> Pfff. Please. You could say the same thing, word-for-word, about Ralph and Ricky Lauren. His peddling of a lifestyle is/was no different thank KJP and Co.


But I do, I do.



> nor is it any more/less reprehensible, yet his mark on both the fashion world and trad/preppy is undeniable.


So what?


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tempest said:


> I hate to use the sprezzatura term, but it's apt because this lacks it. The effort and artifice are visible, and that is a problem. It is the difference between a dancer that performs flawlessly while looking nonchalant and one whose effort and concentration is visible.


Oh, I agree 100%. It's painful to watch. But that's what you get when you have a bunch of average preppy kids instead of professional fashion models. The funny thing is, I get the same impression when I look at catalogs from companies that use employees as models (you know, "legit" trad companies). Ever look at a Kevin's catalog? Yeesh. The point is, most of KJP's products are fluff and his veneer of authenticity is paper-thin, but that's a marketing/advertising flaw and not necessarily a mark against him as a person or against his company.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ and what does that say about Brooks Brothers which apparently carries the product?


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

SG_67 said:


> ^ and what does that say about Brooks Brothers which apparently carries the product?


It does not bode well for Brooks Brothers either. The last ten years has been a rough decade for Brooks.

It is clearly not the traditional men's store (and women's store) that it once was. Management has turned 
it into a make-believe "preppy" marketing machine as well. Many of their offerings as of late frankly surprise me and
disappoint me.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Nothing is True, Everything is Permissible. – Hasan bin Sabbah


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Cool, more Brooks bashing.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> Nothing is True, Everything is Permissible. - Hasan bin Sabbah


LOL. I wish from the bottom of my heart more people would read & know Aristotle's _Metaphysics_, especially chapter iv.


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## Oldsport (Jan 3, 2012)

This is thread is the train wreck that just keeps on giving...

{not directed at you FLCracker}

There is nothing wrong with Brooks Brothers offering those items. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's actually NOT 1955 anymore guys, get over it.



FLCracka said:


> Cool, more Brooks bashing.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Triathlete said:


> This is thread is the train wreck that just keeps on giving...
> 
> {not directed at you FLCracker}
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Brooks Brothers offering those items. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's actually NOT 1955 anymore guys, get over it.


I think most of us are just having fun. Why on earth do you - or anyone else in this thread - get so exercise about all of this?


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

hello fifth page!
So I'm perplexed by once staid BB hocking rather fruity man-decorations, but am unsure if this can be called a downturn from the Thom Browne stuff.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Tempest said:


> hello fifth page!
> So I'm perplexed by once staid BB hocking rather fruity man-decorations, but am unsure if this can be called a downturn from the Thom Browne stuff.


 lol.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Califax said:


> LOL. I wish from the bottom of my heart more people would read & know Aristotle's _Metaphysics_, especially chapter iv.


It is impossible for anything at the same time to be and not to be.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Glad they got married. She seemed like a nice girl to me, and I was always worried over the years he would turn out to be a cad and trade her in for another model. But it turns out it was true love after all. More power to them.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

smmrfld said:


> Any relation to Muffin Albright or whatever her name is...the farcical woman who seems to have very thin skin?


I can't believe people are going after Muffy again!


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

Duvel said:


> Leave them alone. They're not worth the attention, either negative or positive. This is like a piece you'd see in People magazine or the Enquirer.


I think it will be easy for me to comply with your behest. For a year or so, "Kiel James Patrick" was, to me, just another name in online ads for products that didn't interest me. As far as I was concerned, it was a made-up name, or the last names of the company's three founders, or perhaps the real name of the bewhiskered 60-something Irish guy who started the company 40 years ago. It was not until this thread was created a few days ago (a) that I first put a face with the name and (b) first heard of Sarah Vickers. One more reason why I'm glad I don't do Facebook.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Beresford said:


> Glad they got married. She seemed like a nice girl to me, and I was always worried over the years he would turn out to be a cad and trade her in for another model. But it turns out it was true love after all. More power to them.


True love? Aww c'mon, does anyone except soppy teenage girls and the marketing department of Hallmark cards promote such nonsense?


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> It is impossible for anything at the same time to be and not to be.


Hah, I knew you'd be right with me there!


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

Shaver said:


> True love? Aww c'mon, does anyone except soppy teenage girls and the marketing department of Hallmark cards promote such nonsense?


Shaver's comments remind me of how Ambrose Bierce defined "love": "A temporary insanity, curable by marriage...."


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## Oldsport (Jan 3, 2012)

How many people on this forum are also 'living out a fantasy?'


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Charles Dana said:


> As far as I was concerned, it was a made-up name, or the last names of the company's three founders, or perhaps the real name of the bewhiskered 60-something Irish guy who started the company 40 years ago.


People thought the same of Eliza B. (the softer side of Leather Man Ltd.) until Muffy visited with her camera.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Triathlete said:


> How many people on this forum are also 'living out a fantasy?'


As often as is possible. But let's not get into that right now. :rolleyes2:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Califax said:


> Hah, I knew you'd be right with me there!


There are, as I am certain you will appreciate, several more pertinent quotes but they seemed too vicious to apply here.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

hardline_42 said:


> Pfff. Please. You could say the same thing, word-for-word, about Ralph and Ricky Lauren. His peddling of a lifestyle is/was no different thank KJP and Co. nor is it any more/less reprehensible, yet his mark on both the fashion world and trad/preppy is undeniable.
> 
> A few years ago, KJP was making trinkets above his parents' garage and selling them to classmates. Since then, his business has grown by leaps and bounds in a short time while still keeping his production and sourcing of materials in the USA. I'd say that's worthy of admiration whether you like his products or not. Of course his lifestyle is totally contrived and it saturates social media, but that's how you market yourself to the current generation.


Agree completely. While the products aren't for me and I'm twice their age, I love that they've accomplished what they've accomplished. They are a great example of current marketing success.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> There are, as I am certain you will appreciate, several more pertinent quotes but they seemed too vicious to apply here.




What your referring to is, as far as I know, the one time that Aristotle seemed to lose his temper.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I was thinking more along the lines 'For such a man, as such, is from the start no better than a vegetable' but now I am intrigued- Aristotle (bugger for the bottle) lost his temper?



Califax said:


> What your referring to is, as far as I know, the one time that Aristotle seemed to lose his temper.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> I was thinking more along the lines 'For such a man, as such, is from the start no better than a vegetable' but now I am intrigued- Aristotle (bugger for the bottle) lost his temper?


I remember reading a commentary to the effect that the tone here^ in the Greek suggests an uncharacteristic annoyance, "nearly losing his temper" - something like that. He uses that same locution ("vegetables" etc.) in a number of places/ways. He went on to say that no one _really _both affirms and denies something; that it's really just a pose; sophistry, et cetera. Otherwise, _why does a man walk to Megara and not stay at home, when he thinks he ought to go there_? He riffs on this theme for some time; it evidently bothered him and it's not hard to see why.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Califax said:


> I remember reading a commentary to the effect that the tone here^ in the Greek suggests an uncharacteristic annoyance, "nearly losing his temper" - something like that. He uses that same locution in a number of places/ways. He went on to say that no one _really _both affirms and denies something; that it's really just a pose; sophistry, et cetera. Otherwise, _why does a man walk to Megara and not stay at home, when he thinks he ought to go there_? He riffs on this theme for some time; it evidently bothered him and it's not hard to see why.


Damn you!  That is the third time now a member of this forum has obliged me to increase my learning.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> Damn you!  That is the third time now a member of this forum has obliged me to increase my learning.


For my part I'm sure it's the last time. Is there a dress code for this exclusive club?


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## shinebox (Nov 2, 2014)

Shaver said:


> It is impossible for anything at the same time to be and not to be.


Ever heard of Schrödinger's cat, Shaver?


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## Roycru (Apr 13, 2011)

Triathlete said:


> How many people on this forum are also 'living out a fantasy?'


I don't think that anyone on this forum is "living out a fantasy".


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

shinebox said:


> Ever heard of Schrödinger's cat, Shaver?


Well, first it depends upon which interpretation you use. Even if an interpretation _appears _to contradict it, it does not follow that it _actually_ does. Heraclitus is attributed as saying, "Panta Rhei" - "all things flow" - this would appear to violate the principle of non-contradiction. The burden of proof is on Heraclitus to prove that "all things flow" is actually an exception, if not a fatal blow, to the principle it violates.

Second, it's not at all clear how a highly-controversial and highly-theoretical thought experiment relates to, or has meaning for, anything beyond itself - let alone how it undermines the very foundation of reason and logic; that is, the first principle of reason which is the very basis of scientific inquiry itself.

This, and following from the last: to attempt to undermine the principle that Aristotle highlights is - simultaneously - to assume and affirm it.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Of course, there's a LOT more on that^^^. I'm going to gather my thoughts and address the issue with more thoroughness. Well, that is, if anyone's interested, haha! 

In the meantime, I would just like everyone to please take note how aimless banter and fooling around (about a fairly banal topic) has lead, serendipitously, to (who knew?) topics such as Aristotle, foundational logic and - even - Schrödinger's cat? LOL?

It seems to me that topics are sometimes (maybe even _mostly_) occasions for banter and wit and just plain silliness. Isn't that part of the fun?

"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly." G.K. Chesterton


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Beresford said:


> I can't believe people are going after Muffy again!


She's a better target than a 12-point buck. Unfortunately, Muffy bashing is not very sporting as she makes it far too easy.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

Who, pray tell, is Muffy? We newer guys would like to know the backstory.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

The cat exists in a super-position the wave function of which is collapsed by observation. All of this lovely quantum mechanical jiggery-pokery bequeathing Boltzmann Brains- now, were one of those entities to become a member here then we could really have some larks.



shinebox said:


> Ever heard of Schrödinger's cat, Shaver?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

One of my, currently incomplete, projects is to contribute a thread addressing the directional arrow of time and the mechanism by which the second thermodynamic law instructs Human perception. Perhaps I shall complete this over the Xmas break. If I *ahem* find the time.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

CSG said:


> Who, pray tell, is Muffy? We newer guys would like to know the backstory.


The editor of Salt Water New England, formerly Daily Prep, goes by the name Muffy Aldrich. Use the search function, she's been a topic here before, much to the disapproval of some.
Here is Muffy with Eliza B.


Spoiler


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## niv (Sep 15, 2012)

I just want to say that this has been one of the most entertaining threads in a while.


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

Shaver said:


> One of my, currently incomplete, projects is to contribute a thread addressing the directional arrow of time and the mechanism by which the second thermodynamic law instructs Human perception. Perhaps I shall complete this over the Xmas break. If I *ahem* find the time.


We very much look forward to that. I do hope, however, that you don't neglect the translation of the _Iliad _you promised a few threads back. Christmas break will be sufficient if you squeeze in a weekend here and there, I imagine.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

thanks for the info, Tempest. So she's sort of a MILF Sarah? 

Seriously, I get a kick out of all this. I'm from an old New England family (Phillips, Dartmouth, Harvard) but was born in Michigan and moved west early in life. I like to think of myself as an Associate Preppy/Ivy Leaguer even though I went to public school and college. The whole fantasy prep lifestyle thing is the life I was born to live but didn't.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

drlivingston said:


> She's a better target than a 12-point buck. Unfortunately, Muffy bashing is not very sporting as she makes it far too easy.


Since we're bringing out all the old baggage, it's too bad "WASP 101" isn't around any more. Now there was a true cad and poseur.


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## inq89 (Dec 3, 2008)

Best wishes to the handsome couple! 

It's one of my life dreams to find a gal with the modern preppy fashion sense of Sarah Vickers.... The black leggings and uggs boots all sorority girls tends to get old quick!


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Tempest said:


> You've answered your own question. It seems none of their actions are free of connections to commerce. This is Kardashianism.


Excellent observation.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Thank you.


CSG said:


> thanks for the info, Tempest. So she's sort of a MILF Sarah?


Mrs. Aldrich, as she wishes to be called online, goes for a very androgynous and well-scrubbed look, so I would say more of a grand dame?
I was really hoping that the Eliza B. Lyons intrigue would catch on, but it appears not to be.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Califax said:


> We very much look forward to that. I do hope, however, that you don't neglect the translation of the _Iliad _you promised a few threads back. Christmas break will be sufficient if you squeeze in a weekend here and there, I imagine.


Hmmm, I am unable to recall promising a translation - nor would I be capable of doing so with any degree of proficiency. However, I do remember recently praising the Odyssey but with a rather mean spirited side swipe at the grating overuse of a limited number of metaphors.

All of this said, and for those of us interested in the phenomenology of consciousness - and by extension consensus reality - then Homer's works are often cited as potentially offering evidence to support the bicameralism hypothesis, having been composed at the proposed cusp of the transition toward cohesive lateralisation and the capacity for meta-reflection.

.
.

.
.
.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Shaver said:


> Hmmm, I am unable to recall promising a translation - nor would I be capable of doing so with any degree of proficiency. However, I do remember recently praising the Odyssey but with a rather mean spirited side swipe at the grating overuse of a limited number of metaphors.
> 
> All of this said, and for those of us interested in the phenomenology of consciousness - and by extension consensus reality - then Homer's works are often cited as potentially offering evidence to support the bicameralism hypothesis, having been composed at the proposed cusp of the transition toward cohesive lateralisation and the capacity for meta-reflection.


Git 'r done!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Nah. I'd much rather be re-reading Ovid's Metamorphoses.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

drlivingston said:


> She's a better target than a 12-point buck. Unfortunately, Muffy bashing is not very sporting as she makes it far too easy.


Sort of like those pikers who take that "12 point buck", shooting over a salt block, eh? It's just not right. LOL.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Sort of like those pikers who take that "12 point buck", shooting over a salt block, eh? It's just not right. LOL.


Or a pile of corn. Not that I'd know anything about that.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Shaver said:


> Nah. I'd much rather be re-reading Ovid's Metamorphoses.


Sorry, my post really had no meaning whatsoever. It was just the juxtaposition of our two posts that made me giggle. Didn't mean to sidetrack.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Side tracking this thread? Too terrible to contemplate.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Did the newlywed Patricks* visit the Xmas tree farm again this year?

*If the bride kept her maiden name or did some hyphenated nonsense, all cred is dead.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Shaver said:


> Side tracking this thread? Too terrible to contemplate.


Haha.


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