# Um...Short Sleeve Dress Shirts?



## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

By my count, BB currently has 34 different no-iron short sleeved dress shirts available in various patterns. That's just in slim fit. What gives? Are that many people really wearing ties with short sleeved shirts? Wouldn't alpha sizing be sufficient. Imagine if they had anything approaching that selection in OCBD's. I'd be broke. 

I did get a pair of no-iron sports shirts at the semi-annual, and I'll admit that I like them. I like the material better then the plain white no-iron, which I am not crazy about, even though I have a few for convenience.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Well ... Brooks Brothers seems to have 344 different no-iron dress shirts available in total (14 x 24 + 8). That's including all fits, but it counts similar shirts in different colors only once.

So the short sleeved ones aren't exactly taking over, though I guess there are a fair number of Schrutes out there.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

I could see buying something sold as a SS dress shirt, but then wearing it as a sport shirt. Something with a loud-ish pattern, or similar.

Otherwise, I'm not gonna complain because the guys who buy short-sleeve shirts to wear with ties are subsidizing BB's wonderful products, like sack blazers or those mint green sportcoats, which are sheer, unbridled comic genius.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Years ago my now ex was an asst mgr at Jos A Bank (back when they manufactured real sack suits). One day I walked into the store and they had a sign up "Short Sleeve Dress Shirts". I asked one of the staff for a Sharpie and blackened out the word "Dress". They were not pleased and while my method lacked a certain grace I stand on the point having been made. That said, had there not been "short sleeve dress shirts" the USA likely never would have put a man on the moon since that was the hot setup for the NASA teams.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

A short sleeve OCBD looks rather dashing under a cotton sweater vest. You are being entirely too harsh. :biggrin:


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## Acme (Oct 5, 2011)

+1 Brooksfan. I agree that the phrase "short sleeve dress shirts" is an oxymoron.

I do like Gene Kranz's vests, though.


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

My FIL is a mortician in Florida. He wears short sleeved "dress" shirts most everyday of the week. Looks fine under his suit when he is dealing with the public and he can cool off when they are gone.

Next time I see him I will try to remember to ask if any of the bereaved have commented on the lack of shirt cuffs.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't get the aversion. Is it because of the word "dress" when we're talking about a work item? I seem to recall wearing a lot of short sleeved shirts in the '60 to '80s--even with a tie. It was unworthy of comment before the advent of ubiquitous air conditioning. That alone would make it, imo, arguably "Trad". But while it was fine for astronauts, it doesn't seem to fit the trendier end of this forum. I am hoping for a major revival, along with muted madras sport coats and saddle shoes (not necessarily in the same outfit) but I don't see it happening.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Wouldn't wear with them with a coat or tie, but as sport shirts, sure.

Brooksfan: My guess is that you aren't allowed in that store anymore, whether or not it's to borrow a Sharpie!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

LOL. A lot of you guys would have struggled to fit in at NASA Launch Control, back in the 1960's!


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

To P. Hudson's point, I don't get the aversion either. Short sleeve shirts with ties were fairly common during my early working days (late 60's) and in my archives I still have some Esquire Good Grooming Guides c 66-68 that included them on their basic wardrobe lists. I do remember in John Molloy's landmark book Dress for Success he stated that if one wished to be taken seriously in managing people they should never wear a short sleeve dress shirt. This advice was one of a few things that 35+ years later sticks in my mind. Of course he also said in the book that should one choose to wear a bow tie for business it must be accompanied by a beanie with a propeller. I have seen any number of men who carry off the bow tie as a signature look without anyone questioning their seriousness or abilities so it ultimately boils down to each of us choosing what we like and going with it.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Short Sleeved Shirts:

As a summer sport shirt - yes.

With a necktie - *NO!!

*From Clothes Do Make The Man on the Home Page:

_Here are some basic tips, and faux pas to avoid in order to look your best:

_​
*1. *Never wear a short sleeve shirt with a tie. Short sleeve shirts are perceived as lower class apparel. Fine as part of a uniform or if you aspire to be a fast-food manager, not if you want to project a _professional image_.

​


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

though I don't do it myself, I like the look of a ss shirt with a tie: radiates unpretentiousness, sincererity, and a winning unfamiliarity with the concept of Dressing for Success. Wouldn't expect to see it on a Goldman Sachs investment banker, but on members of such blameless, useful professions such as schoolteacher, pharmacist, government clerk, etc. it looks good.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

The Rambler said:


> though I don't do it myself, I like the look of a ss shirt with a tie: radiates unpretentiousness, sincererity, and a winning unfamiliarity with the concept of Dressing for Success. Wouldn't expect to see it on a Goldman Sachs investment banker, but on members of such blameless, useful professions such as schoolteacher, pharmacist, government clerk, etc. it looks good.


Don't forget the engineer!


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## jwooten (Dec 19, 2010)

srivats said:


> Don't forget the engineer!


You won't see this engineer in that look!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

LOL...but then, you don't work for NASA...do you? :icon_scratch:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Yep, these were some chic, stylish guys right here. :icon_smile_big:


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Yep, these were some chic, stylish guys right here. :icon_smile_big:


Indeed. Some here talk about the current Trad dressing better than 90 per cent of the people out there, a point which I've always excepted. This picture shows a group of the world's best engineers surrounded by functional equipment with a slightly modernist tinge to it, wearing flat front trousers, soft shoes and ss (in the Houston heat I assume) along with a tie. My hat's off to them. They are probably the genuine Ivy League engineering students of the late '50s, now gainfully employed. Furthermore, at least a few of them probably have a suit coat or sport jacket hidden away somewhere. I'm guessing the fellow to the right of the picture is wearing suit trousers.

I could cherry-pick a photo or two that might make them look more stylish, but this one is still "better than what "90 per cent of the people out there" are wearing today.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

It's actually not Houston or Cape Canaveral, but a set and actors simulating the latter. 

https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Assignment:_Earth_(episode)

While I have nothing but admiration for the work of NASA, the "uniform" of short sleeves and a tie is far from optimal outside that workplace and just looks, well, dorky.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Also:

While there certainly is such a thing as an Ivy League engineering student, they generally weren't the people who "trad" is based on.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

They likely aren't even aware that Trad exists . . . or even care. The really scary part is . . . guess who will get hired first, come graduation.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Starch said:


> Also:
> 
> While there certainly is such a thing as an Ivy League engineering student, they generally weren't the people who "trad" is based on.


I agree with this, but then what we call Trad was just what people wore during a certain era, and my guess is that when your Ivy League engineer got a job, he just took on the uniform of the era--which tended to be natural shoulders, soft shoes, and a tie--even when it was pretty hot.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Which would drive such a practical sort to short sleeved dress shirts.


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## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

Lloyd Bridges in Airplane. "Boy did I pick the wrong day to give up sniffing glue".


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

I have been thinking this over for some time now. This is just a guess and I would love to hear others thoughts on the subject but does the decline of the short sleeve dress shirt correspond with the rise of air-conditioning?


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

oxford cloth button down said:


> I have been thinking this over for some time now. This is just a guess and I would love to hear others thoughts on the subject but does the decline of the short sleeve dress shirt correspond with the rise of air-conditioning?


Probably.

I keep a wool cardigan in my office that I'm likely to be wearing any given day during the heat of a Georgia summer because the folks in my office keep it so cold. Pisses me off to no end. It is generally cooler in the summer than it is in the winter. In the spring and fall when the temps are nice, they love to run the heat all morning until it's 78 or so and then turn the ac on to cool it back down to 72.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

oxford cloth button down said:


> I have been thinking this over for some time now. This is just a guess and I would love to hear others thoughts on the subject but does the decline of the short sleeve dress shirt correspond with the rise of air-conditioning?


That's sort of what I figured -- I don't like it because it looks disproportionate, but I suspect the original "Dress For Success" tips against it were probably a subtle class thing, something like "Short sleeve dress shirts are for people who can't afford air-conditioning. You _can _afford air-conditioning, right?"

Speaking as somebody who can't afford air conditioning, I just lose the tie in summer and when I feel like wearing a coat and tie, I add the extra few degrees of heat from wearing a LS shirt. Not a big deal to me, but I'm fairly accustomed to the heat.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

There is logic in that. Those NASA types were working in Florida in the sixties, after all, and I suspect that most of the AC budget went to keeping the computers cool.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> There is logic in that. Those NASA types were working in Florida in the sixties, after all, and I suspect that most of the AC budget went to keeping the computers cool.


That's probably true, not to mention that in _Project Apollo,_ which is the only film I've seen that has significant amounts of authentic documentary footage of NASA, it seems that their complex had a fair number of different buildings, with a lot of foot traffic between them.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Another group that has been known to wear ss dress shirts with ties would be architects who have to go out and personally inspect their projects. They were always easy to spot on the work site. If some guy got out of a suspiciously clean pickup wearing a ss dress shirt (usually white) and tie and who put on a shiny, clean white hard hat, that was the one. At which point the real hard hats would groan, "Oh sh*t, here comes trouble!" and the site boss would try and head the guy off before he came up and tried to tell us how to build.:rolleyes2:


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

In my late '50s/early 60s high school and college years, on the Florida Gulf Coast, short-sleeve OCBDs were essential in the hot months, which were most. We wore them with flat-front pants in khaki, olive and navy; surcingle belts; and penny loafers, shell oxfords or white bucks. And we dressed them up with a madras jacket and silk tie for anything beyond daily school wear. Professional men wore them with very lightweight navy or poplin sack suits, and some with seersucker. The sleeves always came down to the elbow and to roll them up was looked down upon as lowlife. A small monogram on the breast pocket was a popular affectation. These SS dress shirts were, in those years, synonymous with the Southern collegiate look (I never heard the word "preppy" until I came north). And we would've never thought they would acquire a nerd reputation since they were de rigueur for football players (I never heard the word "jock" either), who, in the South, were gods.


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## eye40garn (Jan 15, 2012)

short sleeve DRESS shirt? Is that like dress shorts ?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Dragoon said:


> Probably.
> 
> I keep a wool cardigan in my office that I'm likely to be wearing any given day during the heat of a Georgia summer because the folks in my office keep it so cold. Pisses me off to no end. It is generally cooler in the summer than it is in the winter. In the spring and fall when the temps are nice, they love to run the heat all morning until it's 78 or so and then turn the ac on to cool it back down to 72.


I'm all about keeping comfortable, but that's just a _waste of money_!


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## DoghouseReilly (Jul 25, 2010)

That sort of thing is pretty typical. Especially in the government office I have worked in.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Sure is, but a man can get _frostbite_ in an office in Phoenix. Then you walk out into the 112F heat!


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Oldsarge said:


> Those NASA types were working in Florida in the sixties, after all....


Almost entirely in Houston, actually, though I suppose that's even more supportive of the basic observation.


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## caravan70 (Mar 18, 2010)

There's a reason why long-sleeved dress shirts have button or turnback cuffs. If you get too hot, roll up the sleeves. Unless you're in a tropical climate and can get away with Aloha shirts or similar, there's really no need for a short-sleeved dress shirt. Isn't that kind of an oxymoronic term anyway?


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Spoken like a true New Yorker! :biggrin:

Hey, I just figure that when the temperature gets above 75F, it's too hot for a tie and therefore too hot for long sleeves. Time to break out the ss polos. And when it gets above 85? The coat goes! Yes, by all means, let there be aloha shirts.


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

Rather than sane, analytical professionals or their foil in Dwight Schrute, the short-sleeved dress shirt with tie always reminds me of this character:


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

'Short sleeve' or 'Short sleeved' and 'dress shirt' are incompatible. Aren't these always paired with plastic pocket protecters?


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Nowadays, I think the iconic role of the pocket protector has somewhat been usurped by the belt-mounted cell phone.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Starch said:


> Nowadays, I think the iconic role of the pocket protector has somewhat been usurped by the belt-mounted cell phone.


Point! And both equally complement the puckishly named 'short sleeve(d) dress shirt' in any hue.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

caravan70 said:


> There's a reason why long-sleeved dress shirts have button or turnback cuffs. If you get too hot, roll up the sleeves. Unless you're in a tropical climate and can get away with Aloha shirts or similar, there's really no need for a short-sleeved dress shirt. Isn't that kind of an oxymoronic term anyway?


My research suggests that it was not to roll up the sleeves, but instead to fold up the cuff at the stitching that runs about an inch from the end (only shirtmaker I know of that includes that stitching into the modern era is Eagle). That way the soot and dust that sat on the desk was hidden when one turned the cuff back down upon leaving the office. You can see a faint white line if you click on and look hard at this pic of an Eagle Shirtmakers (since 1867).







p.s. the white line is NOT the seam where the cuff is attached to the sleeve, as can be found on many shirts.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

efdll said:


> In my late '50s/early 60s high school and college years, on the Florida Gulf Coast, short-sleeve OCBDs were essential in the hot months, which were most. We wore them with flat-front pants in khaki, olive and navy; surcingle belts; and penny loafers, shell oxfords or white bucks. And we dressed them up with a madras jacket and silk tie for anything beyond daily school wear. Professional men wore them with very lightweight navy or poplin sack suits, and some with seersucker. The sleeves always came down to the elbow and to roll them up was looked down upon as lowlife. A small monogram on the breast pocket was a popular affectation. These SS dress shirts were, in those years, synonymous with the Southern collegiate look (I never heard the word "preppy" until I came north). And we would've never thought they would acquire a nerd reputation since they were de rigueur for football players (I never heard the word "jock" either), who, in the South, were gods.


I love this: I don't know why Australian style doesn't incorporate this look in a big way (actually the reason has to do with respect for British conventions and a slight disdain for things American). I esp. love poplin suits and madras jackets. Funny thing is, whenever I wear my sort of tacky RLP madras jacket, it gets a lot of compliments here. The look you're describing is what I consider the essence of warm weather trad.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Sorry, guys, but you'll still see a fair number of doctors wearing a tie and white coat with a short sleeve shirt under the jacket, I've been known to do the same. Particularly in the summer time. Try washing your hands properly 40-50 times a day without the cuffs getting wet. Here function trumps formality.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> A short sleeve OCBD looks rather dashing under a cotton sweater vest. You are being entirely too harsh. :biggrin:


Perhaps but it seems like a contradiction to me. As vest-wearing temperatures approach I'd go to sleeves first.


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## upthewazzu (Nov 3, 2011)

We have a guy here who wears short sleeve dress shirts almost exclusively. He's an IT manager so it doesn't surprise me. Aside from him, I rarely see them. I see short sleeve sport shirts all the time in the summer while not working, but I never see them on co-workers. I think this has to do with the temperature of the building I'm in. They keep the temp at 77° in the winter and about 68° in the summer. It's just too cold to wear them.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

P Hudson said:


> My research suggests that it was not to roll up the sleeves, but instead to fold up the cuff at the stitching that runs about an inch from the end (only shirtmaker I know of that includes that stitching into the modern era is Eagle). That way the soot and dust that sat on the desk was hidden when one turned the cuff back down upon leaving the office. You can see a faint white line if you click on and look hard at this pic of an Eagle Shirtmakers (since 1867).
> View attachment 3961
> 
> p.s. the white line is NOT the seam where the cuff is attached to the sleeve, as can be found on many shirts.


Wow! Now I vabuely remember shirts like that, and wondering what that stitch was for.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

P Hudson said:


> I love this: I don't know why Australian style doesn't incorporate this look in a big way (actually the reason has to do with respect for British conventions and a slight disdain for things American). I esp. love poplin suits and madras jackets. Funny thing is, whenever I wear my sort of tacky RLP madras jacket, it gets a lot of compliments here. The look you're describing is what I consider the essence of warm weather trad.


P,

I lived in Sydney during high school, 78-81. I remember a lot of polyester bermuda shorts, often light blue, worn with knee-high dress socks, maybe with garters, black dress shoes, a short sleeve shirt and a tie. Definitely more Brit-leaning (and, well, ugh).

Our school uniform shirts were short sleeved, tie required, and sweater and/or blazer in winter. We had long sleeved shirts too but most students had only short sleeved ones. One could always put a sweater on, and no one cared about cuffs showing. The more upscale prep schools were probably stricter about this.

Plaid anything was a caricature of American.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

upthewazzu said:


> We have a guy here who wears short sleeve dress shirts almost exclusively. He's an IT manager so it doesn't surprise me. Aside from him, I rarely see them. I see short sleeve sport shirts all the time in the summer while not working, but I never see them on co-workers. I think this has to do with the temperature of the building I'm in. They keep the temp at 77° in the winter and about 68° in the summer. It's just too cold to wear them.


Shouldn't that be the other way around?


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

cdavant said:


> Sorry, guys, but you'll still see a fair number of doctors wearing a tie and white coat with a short sleeve shirt under the jacket, I've been known to do the same. Particularly in the summer time. Try washing your hands properly 40-50 times a day without the cuffs getting wet. Here function trumps formality.


Few doctors know how to dress properly. Trust me, I know. 

Who cares if my cuffs get a little wet once in a while? They dry.

The best argument against the existence of the short-sleeved "dress" shirt, IMO, is this. If you're wearing a tie, you should also be wearing a jacket (or lab coat, if we're still talking about doctors). A properly fitted jacket demands a small amount of cuff showing at the sleeves. This is impossible with the short-sleeved "dress" shirt.


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## upthewazzu (Nov 3, 2011)

Jovan said:


> Shouldn't that be the other way around?


How so? The building is freezing in the summer because of the A/C and hot in the winter because of the heater. I could see someone wanting to wear a short sleeve shirt in the summer b/c of the outside temp, but they would freeze their tail off once they walked inside. No one would normally wear a short sleeve shirt in the winter, therefore they couldn't take advantage of the excessive heat inside the building. Except for that one guy, of course.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Over here, we set the thermostat to the mid to high 70s in summer and if it's actually cold out in winter to somewhere in the 60s. It amazes me how little money some of these businesses want to save.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Topsider said:


> Few doctors know how to dress properly. Trust me, I know.
> 
> I'd make it "a few" doctors. The young ones favor scrubs and rarely put on a jacket. We had a couple turned away from a Medical Society dinner at a country club where the dress code was coat and tie, no denim and the invitation said "Coat and Tie, No denim." They showed up in jeans and polos anyway and became irate when asked to leave. Ah, the decline in standards. We need to remember that Farmer Joe thinks a tie is dressed up and his wife shops at Dollar General so she doesn't have to get all dressed up like when she goes to Wal-Mart.
> 
> There are times when wearing a SS OCBD with a tie and jacket works nicely. Last time I did it I was going from a visitation at a funeral home to a cookout. Less than half the funeral crowd was wearing a jacket, much less showing cuff. I paid my respects, left the jacket and tie in the car and felt I was acceptably attired both places.


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## upthewazzu (Nov 3, 2011)

Jovan said:


> Over here, we set the thermostat to the mid to high 70s in summer and if it's actually cold out in winter to somewhere in the 60s. It amazes me how little money some of these businesses want to save.


So very true. But I work for the government so that should tell you something.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

cdavant said:


> There are times when wearing a SS OCBD with a tie and jacket works nicely. Last time I did it I was going from a visitation at a funeral home to a cookout. Less than half the funeral crowd was wearing a jacket, much less showing cuff. I paid my respects, left the jacket and tie in the car and felt I was acceptably attired both places.


I'd have worn a long-sleeved shirt to the funeral and rolled my sleeves up at the cookout.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Topsider said:


> The best argument against the existence of the short-sleeved "dress" shirt, IMO, is this. If you're wearing a tie, you should also be wearing a jacket (or lab coat, if we're still talking about doctors). A properly fitted jacket demands a small amount of cuff showing at the sleeves. This is impossible with the short-sleeved "dress" shirt.


Just wait. Thom Browne will solve all your problems with a cap-sleeve jacket.

Black Fleece spring/summer '14. Believe it.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Fear it!


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Topsider said:


> I'd have worn a long-sleeved shirt to the funeral and rolled my sleeves up at the cookout.


Doesn't everyone look forward to these funeral-cookout events?
Still wouldn't be caught dead in the short sleeve so-called dress shirt.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

The worst part was the dearly departed. Black suit. No tie dimple. No pocket square. No cuff showing. Might as well be dead, anyway...


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

cdavant said:


> The worst part was the dearly departed. Black suit. No tie dimple. No pocket square. No cuff showing.


Probably dressed by a woman. ;-)


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

*_Note to self: Make serious corrections in will!*_


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

upthewazzu said:


> So very true. But I work for the government so that should tell you something.


This made me laugh.


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