# VW Phaeton (aka Bentley Lite)



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

This is a car that would (IMO) be most appropriate for any wealthy trad because of its understated elegance. It allows for the owners to fly under the radar but still exudes class and provides every bit of luxury anyone can possibly want in a car south of $120K. I am hoping VW of A will resume importing them back into the US so that this masterpiece can be owned by the gentlemen/ladies who wear their labels under their clothes.

Following is a recent write up about the car by Jeremy Clarkson The VW Phaeton and his initial test drive report on the vehicle is here on Youtube.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

It does look like a simply amazing car. The thing that will kill it though, is a VW dealership's service department is not ready to handle the type of customer that drops 120k on a car. Heck, they are not even ready to handle people that can afford a top of the line Toureg (about 65k). I know as we are scouting out the next lease for my wife and Toureg was on her list. No service loaner, squalling brats running around the service area while boho wanna-be Earth mothers get the oil in their Bug changed. It's not just the actual cars that a high end vehicle competes against, it is also the service culture.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Certainly fills a gap in the market.


----------



## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> The thing that will kill it though, is a VW dealership's service department is not ready to handle the type of customer that drops 120k on a car. Heck, they are not even ready to handle people that can afford a top of the line Toureg (about 65k). I know as we are scouting out the next lease for my wife and Toureg was on her list. No service loaner, squalling brats running around the service area while boho wanna-be Earth mothers get the oil in their Bug changed. It's not just the actual cars that a high end vehicle competes against, it is also the service culture.


I wouldn't consider a Toureg (or any VW) for largely those same reasons. If I wanted a high-end Volkswagen, I'd buy an Audi.

Wayfarer, for what it's worth, after looking at several "family SUVs", we just leased a Volvo XC90 for my wife. _Very_ pleased so far with both car and dealer service. Much better than what I got from the Saab dealer while my car was under warranty.

EGF


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> It does look like a simply amazing car. The thing that will kill it though, is a VW dealership's service department is not ready to handle the type of customer that drops 120k on a car. Heck, they are not even ready to handle people that can afford a top of the line Toureg (about 65k). I know as we are scouting out the next lease for my wife and Toureg was on her list. No service loaner, squalling brats running around the service area while boho wanna-be Earth mothers get the oil in their Bug changed. It's not just the actual cars that a high end vehicle competes against, it is also the service culture.


You accurately nailed one of the 2 major problems some of the owners encountered which is probably what some of prospective buyers dread. I wish VW would use the Toyota/Lexus model (specialized dealerships for the T-reg and Phaeton only.)

The second and primary reason the car was pulled out of US market is because of many people's fascination with brand name marques. Alot of people couldn't imagine themselves (if they could afford it) spending 80K (V8) - 120K (W12) on a car with the VW logo on it but sadly would spend $180K for basically the same car only because it comes repackaged with a Bentley logo on it.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

egadfly said:


> I wouldn't consider a Toureg (or any VW) for largely those same reasons. *If I wanted a high-end Volkswagen, I'd buy an Audi.*
> 
> Wayfarer, for what it's worth, after looking at several "family SUVs", we just leased a Volvo XC90 for my wife. _Very_ pleased so far with both car and dealer service. Much better than what I got from the Saab dealer while my car was under warranty.
> 
> EGF


If you want a high end VW then you'd have to go the Bentley route. The Phaeton (IMO and experience) is better than the Audi.


----------



## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

egadfly said:


> _Very_ pleased so far with both car and dealer service. Much better than what I got from the Saab dealer while my car was under warranty.


That's odd, when I was leasing a Saab, service at the dealership was outstanding. My friend commented on how excellent the service was compared to the Benz dealership he regulars.

There's probably a good bit of variability from dealer group to dealer group. I guess Saab needs to crack down on that.


----------



## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Our local dealership has no problems servicing them. ( I was looking into getting a used one).They said that after the initial buzz, sales dropped off ( mostly due to folks that would buy them having a penchant for more flashy brands) If i were in the market for a sedan, the Phaeton would be at the top of my list ( 12 cylinders for under $100K!)

Also I love the irony of a W-12 "people's car" LOL!


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

egadfly said:


> I wouldn't consider a Toureg (or any VW) for largely those same reasons. If I wanted a high-end Volkswagen, I'd buy an Audi.
> 
> Wayfarer, for what it's worth, after looking at several "family SUVs", we just leased a Volvo XC90 for my wife. _Very_ pleased so far with both car and dealer service. Much better than what I got from the Saab dealer while my car was under warranty.
> 
> EGF


Thanks for the input egadfly. My wife is coming out of an XC90 (her second Volvo in a row). For a few reasons, she has decided not to go into another XC90. One of the main reasons is they really have not updated it since the time she received her current one. After extensive test driving, my money is on her chosing either the Infiniti FX45 or the Mercedes M Class


----------



## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

Asterix said:


> You accurately nailed one of the 2 major problems some of the owners encountered which is probably what some of prospective buyers dread. I wish VW would use the Toyota/Lexus model (specialized dealerships for the T-reg and Phaeton only.)


They do! It's called Audi. :icon_smile_big:

The last thing VW needs is another brand... at last check:

VW
Audi
Seat
Skoda
Lamborghini
Bentley
...and Porsche owns a significant chunk of them.

The best way to think of VW is as the German General Motors (and yes, I known GM has a German brand through their ownership of Opel)... granted, a much higher quality version of GM, but still.

Here's my issue: I'm kind of bored with VWs, but yet I think Audi's are too expensive to be worth it. I'd love to see Seat or Skoda in the US market.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

gar1013 said:


> *They do! It's called Audi.* :icon_smile_big:
> 
> The last thing VW needs is another brand... at last check:
> 
> ...


:icon_smile_big: I've heard that many times but the Phaeton is definitely not an Audi. The closest thing to a Phaeton in the VAG family is the Bentley Flying Spur/Continental GT so I guess they should rebadge it as the entry level/starter Bentley that it really is.


----------



## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

jbmcb said:


> That's odd, when I was leasing a Saab, service at the dealership was outstanding. My friend commented on how excellent the service was compared to the Benz dealership he regulars.
> 
> There's probably a good bit of variability from dealer group to dealer group. I guess Saab needs to crack down on that.


My dealer started out great, then expanded and became a joint Saab/Cadillac outfit, which I think speaks for itself.



Wayfarer said:


> Thanks for the input egadfly. My wife is coming out of an XC90 (her second Volvo in a row). For a few reasons, she has decided not to go into another XC90. One of the main reasons is they really have not updated it since the time she received her current one. After extensive test driving, my money is on her chosing either the Infiniti FX45 or the Mercedes M Class


My apologies -- I missed the earlier thread on Volvos, which probably renders my comment moot.

In any case, we're quite happy with the car, the dealer, and the 24-month lease deal, and the fact that the design is relatively unchanged isn't a negative for us, as we've not had one before (we're trading in our '96 Subaru wagon).

Beyond those two years, I've no idea what we'll do.

EGF


----------



## jkreusc (Aug 14, 2006)

I am a VW fanatic and own a passat. But the Phaeton is a horrible idea. In the new products class I am taking right now the professor's catch phrase every night is "will the dog eat the dog food." For the Phaeton, the answer is no.

The majority of people in the $120k car market do not even consider VW. It is along the same lines as when Levi's offered suits. Even if it was perfectly constructed, fully canvassed, and a great value, people just wouldn't think of Levis when it comes to suits.

From what I understand, it is esentially the same car as the Audi A8, which people would consider in that price range.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

EGF:

No apologies needed! The XC90 has been a very good vehicle and I hope it is for your wife also. Just a need to try something new.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

VW was founded on copying an oudated french design to please Hitler. Ferdinand went on to give us panzers and ovens. I just beat everybody mentioning Hitler in a thread. I'll leave Frank to involve Bush.


----------



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

I like the one-off Phateon Lounge (a Phateon Stretch Limo.) I've never seen a Phateon in real life, I imagine it's got to be one of the rarest cars on the road. I remember reading about it in British GQ, they described it as "the ultimate car for people feeling conflicted about their success." :icon_smile_big:


















https://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/12/21/186538.html


----------



## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

Kav said:


> VW was founded on copying an oudated french design to please Hitler. Ferdinand went on to give us panzers and ovens. I just beat everybody mentioning Hitler in a thread. I'll leave Frank to involve Bush.


I'd be interested in knowing what your source is on the statement "copying an outdated french design".


----------



## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

As a car guy who insists they don't make them like they used to and is often found up to his elbows in grease, I have to say the W12 Phaeton is quite simply one of the best cars ever made and the best buy ever made.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

egadfly said:


> I wouldn't consider a Toureg (or any VW) for largely those same reasons. If I wanted a high-end Volkswagen, I'd buy an Audi.
> 
> Wayfarer, for what it's worth, after looking at several "family SUVs", we just leased a Volvo XC90 for my wife. _Very_ pleased so far with both car and dealer service. Much better than what I got from the Saab dealer while my car was under warranty.
> 
> EGF


My experience with our Saab service department has been very good. It is a Saab/Volvo dealer though, so maybe that is the difference.

I like the Phaeton, but I don't think it will be back anytime soon.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

jkreusc said:


> I am a VW fanatic and own a passat. But the Phaeton is a horrible idea. In the new products class I am taking right now the professor's catch phrase every night is "will the dog eat the dog food." For the Phaeton, the answer is no.
> 
> The majority of people in the $120k car market do not even consider VW. It is along the same lines as when Levi's offered suits. Even if it was perfectly constructed, fully canvassed, and a great value, people just wouldn't think of Levis when it comes to suits.
> 
> *From what I understand, it is esentially the same car as the Audi A8*, which people would consider in that price range.


Wrong understanding my good gentleman.............. I have both (W12 Phaeton and Audi A8L) and they are about as different as night is to day.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

marlinspike said:


> As a car guy who insists they don't make them like they used to and is often found up to his elbows in grease, *I have to say the W12 Phaeton is quite simply one of the best cars ever made and the best buy ever made.*


Opinion seconded! :icon_smile_wink:



Laxplayer said:


> My experience with our Saab service department has been very good. It is a Saab/Volvo dealer though, so maybe that is the difference.
> 
> I like the Phaeton, but *I don't think it will be back anytime soon*.


The new CEO of VW of A said he is bringing it back and rumor is that it will be back in sometime between 2009 and 2011.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Asterix said:


> The new CEO of VW of A said he is bringing it back and rumor is that it will be back in sometime between 2009 and 2011.


That's good to hear, though I hope they have a great marketing plan this time around. I like the idea of Phaeton's understated luxury. I just think they have a hard time competing with BMW and Mercedes. Historically, the VW image is not one of luxury cars. In time they may overcome this though. Even Hyundai is trying to get into the luxury side of the car market with the Equus and Genesis.


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Ah, the Phaeton. I've seen a few running around, great cars, but even for me the idea of an uber high end VW was hard to swallow especially when you factor in the other brands that VW owns. Gas prices what they are, I'm surprised VW hasn't brought over the Polo or Lupo.

Brian


----------



## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

vwguy said:


> Ah, the Phaeton. I've seen a few running around, great cars, but even for me the idea of an uber high end VW was hard to swallow especially when you factor in the other brands that VW owns. Gas prices what they are, I'm surprised VW hasn't brought over the Polo or Lupo.
> 
> Brian


I think you need to consider some of the Phaeton's features though: option to have radiated heat instead of blowing heat to warm the interior and the requirement that the Phaeton should be capable of being driven all day at 300km/h (186mph) with an exterior temperature of 50°C(122°F) whilst maintaining the interior temperature at 22°C (71.6°F).


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

marlinspike said:


> I think you need to consider some of the Phaeton's features though: option to have radiated heat instead of blowing heat to warm the interior and the requirement that the Phaeton should be capable of being driven all day at 300km/h (186mph) with an exterior temperature of 50°C(122°F) whilst maintaining the interior temperature at 22°C (71.6°F).


I know what you're saying, but for the "average" $120K car buyer, do they really care about that or do they care more about the badge on the grille and trunk lid?

Brian


----------



## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

vwguy said:


> I know what you're saying, but for the "average" $120K car buyer, do they really care about that or do they care more about the badge on the grille and trunk lid?
> 
> Brian


Well, $120k sure isn't their used selling price, and IIRC they didn't cost that much even new when they brought them to the US.


----------



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I never knew I was Trad









It is the best car I have ever owned and almost defines stealth wealth. The interior is superb, the size is S class and it costs peanuts. To bad they dropped it in the USA but us lucky Brits can still buy them. My next car will be the same which is a first for me.


----------



## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

vwguy said:


> I know what you're saying, but for the "average" $120K car buyer, do they really care about that or do they care more about the badge on the grille and trunk lid?
> 
> Brian


I would- but then again, I'm allergic to garish branding.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

marlinspike said:


> Well, $120k sure isn't their used selling price, and IIRC they didn't cost that much even new when they brought them to the US.


New W12's were sold for about 98K - 115k depending on options before taxes while the V8s were about 65-80K depending on options.

As per used prices, you can find a used 04 V8 now for less than 40K.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

culverwood said:


> I never knew I was Trad
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is good to see another Phaeton owner here.  If you are not a member yet, please stop by at the VWVortex Phaeton forum to enjoy the wonderful camaraderie of the Phaeton "Phraternity." :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Asterix said:


> It is good to see another Phaeton owner here.  If you are not a member yet, please stop by at the VWVortex Phaeton forum to enjoy the wonderful camaraderie of the Phaeton "Phraternity." :icon_smile_wink:


I was wondering if you post on the 'tex  Lots of good car info there, it's helped me out numerous times.

Brian


----------



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Asterix said:


> It is good to see another Phaeton owner here.  If you are not a member yet, please stop by at the VWVortex Phaeton forum to enjoy the wonderful camaraderie of the Phaeton "Phraternity." :icon_smile_wink:


I am a member, with the same name. The Phaeton people there are very helpful and if non Phaetonists check it out it can only encourage them to get one.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

vwguy said:


> I was wondering if you post on the 'tex  Lots of good car info there, it's helped me out numerous times.
> 
> Brian


The 'tex has been a great resource to me for my 2 V.A.G cars. :icon_smile_big:



culverwood said:


> I am a member, with the same name. The Phaeton people there are very helpful and if non Phaetonists check it out it can only encourage them to get one.


Great to know you are a member. The mods and members of the phaeton forum have been invaluable. :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Asterix said:


> The 'tex has been a great resource to me for my 2 V.A.G cars. :icon_smile_big:


Uh-huh! Owning a Corrado can get very expensive if you don't know how to do certain things yourself  For my winter beater 80 quattro I usually head over to the Audiworld forums, more traffic over there.

Brian


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

vwguy said:


> Uh-huh! Owning a Corrado can get very expensive if you don't know how to do certain things yourself  For my winter beater 80 quattro I usually head over to the Audiworld forums, more traffic over there.
> 
> Brian


I'll have to admit that I can barely fix anything on those cars so all I do is learn what the problem is, learn what the solution is and then strut off to the dealership to show off my "knowledge." :icon_smile: I visit the Audiworld occasionally for some tips on the A8.


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Asterix said:


> I'll have to admit that I can barely fix anything on those cars so all I do is learn what the problem is, learn what the solution is and then strut off to the dealership to show off my "knowledge." :icon_smile: I visit the Audiworld occasionally for some tips on the A8.


Knowing is half the battle 

Brian


----------



## 2.mark (Jul 12, 2006)

I read a review published when the Phaeton was launched in the US, that stated their success would be severely limited by the dealer channel service departments.


----------



## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

I am currently in a 1996 Lexus LX-450 (rebadged Landcruiser) and have been thinking about making a change to a sedan. I am doing alot of miles and my car is excellent, but the ride is a little bumpy after a while. Have been thinking about the following in roughly '04-'06 vintage.

1. VW Phaeton
2. Jaguar XJR
3. Audi A8/S8
4. 540i/M5

I know that each has a slightly different personality, but what are the thoughts on these. 

Have any of the Phaeton owners here had an electrical issues? I was the owner of three VAG vehicles in the 90's and found the electrical issues almost Lucasesque.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

maxnharry said:


> I am currently in a 1996 Lexus LX-450 (rebadged Landcruiser) and have been thinking about making a change to a sedan. I am doing alot of miles and my car is excellent, but the ride is a little bumpy after a while. Have been thinking about the following in roughly '04-'06 vintage.
> 
> 1. VW Phaeton
> 2. Jaguar XJR
> ...


I'd recommend the Phaeton for 3 reasons:

(1) As much as it hurts me to say this, (since I paid close to full retail for mine) it is the best deal out there for a premium luxury car. You can get an '04 V8 4.2 under warranty for less than 40K and for less than 10K extra you can get a W12 6.0 (V12). 
(2) Ride quality is unbeatable in the Phaeton and the A8 (The S8 being the sporty one has a stiffer ride.)
(3) Every one of the cars you have listed are known to have their varied share of electrical/mechanical gremlins as it is rare to buy such complex high end cars and expect them to be 100% trouble free. So getting a car that offers everything you can dream of wanting in a luxury car or better for a third of its true value is worth every bit of any gremlin you might encounter.

To get a true feel of life as a phaeton owner visit the "Phaeton Phraternity" at the .


----------



## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

Asterix said:


> I'd recommend the Phaeton for 3 reasons:
> 
> (1) As much as it hurts me to say this, (since I paid close to full retail for mine) it is the best deal out there for a premium luxury car. You can get an '04 V8 4.2 under warranty for less than 40K and for less than 10K extra you can get a W12 6.0 (V12).
> (2) Ride quality is unbeatable in the Phaeton and the A8 (The S8 being the sporty one has a stiffer ride.)
> ...


Thanks-have been lurking in that forum. Lots of great info.


----------



## kaiiwa (Oct 15, 2006)

The Phaeton is a excellent car regardless of the VW badge. However, as pointed out in previous post VW's dealer network and customer service is one of the worst in the industry. 
I know, I own a '04 Passat and '05 Audi TT. BTW, Audi DS and CS is not much better.
In this era, producing an excellent car is no guarantee for success you must have the DS and CS to support the product.

Hopefully with Porsche at the helm of the VW group they will straighten out 
the DS and CS issues.


----------



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

maxnharry said:


> I am currently in a 1996 Lexus LX-450 (rebadged Landcruiser) and have been thinking about making a change to a sedan. I am doing alot of miles and my car is excellent, but the ride is a little bumpy after a while. Have been thinking about the following in roughly '04-'06 vintage.
> 
> 1. VW Phaeton
> 2. Jaguar XJR
> ...


I would say the Phaeton is a more relaxed car than the others on your list which all seem to have a sporty edge. The XJ was my alternative, I was moving from a 5 series. To me the XJ is prettier on the outside but the interior of the Phaeton is a class ahead of the MB, BMW, Jag competition and the interior is what you experience when driving it.

I have not had any electrical issues. I understand from reading posts on the previously mentioned Vortex forum that a battery which has run down can cause rogue readings on the infotainment unit and a second hand car which has been standing in a dealers shop for some time may need properly charging and connecting to their electronic programing units before it leaves the dealer.


----------



## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

culverwood said:


> I would say the Phaeton is a more relaxed car than the others on your list which all seem to have a sporty edge. The XJ was my alternative, I was moving from a 5 series. To me the XJ is prettier on the outside but the interior of the Phaeton is a class ahead of the MB, BMW, Jag competition and the interior is what you experience when driving it.
> 
> I have not had any electrical issues. I understand from reading posts on the previously mentioned Vortex forum that a battery which has run down can cause rogue readings on the infotainment unit and a second hand car which has been standing in a dealers shop for some time may need properly charging and connecting to their electronic programing units before it leaves the dealer.


The Vortex forums are a great resource to deal with electrical and other gremlins and make automotive quirks a little easier to handle.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

maxnharry said:


> The Vortex forums are a great resource to deal with electrical and other gremlins and make automotive quirks a little easier to handle.


Good to see you at the VWvortex. :icon_smile_big:

Below is a very interesting and enlightening first hand comparison between a Bentley Continental GT and a Phaeton.

Enjoy the writeup!


----------



## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

Asterix said:


> Good to see you at the VWvortex. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Below is a very interesting and enlightening first hand comparison between a Bentley Continental GT and a Phaeton.
> 
> Enjoy the writeup!


Thanks for the article. Am enjoying the VWvortex. Am attending an event at a university and it is difficult to pay attention to the professor when wifi lets me read phaeton articles instead.


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

maxnharry said:


> Thanks for the article. Am enjoying the VWvortex. Am attending an event at a university and _it is difficult to pay attention to the professor when wifi lets me read phaeton articles instead._


Don't worry the addiction to VWvortex is a good sign that you would be a great member of the Phaeton Phraternity. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Latest story from the Vortex:

"Christmas Shopping with a W12

My wife ,who is a great fan of the Phaeton , went to a shopping center (about 6-7 mi. ) ......found a parking space as she came in ( a rare event ), got out and did her thing for, she says 2hours, came out got into the car pressed the Start and nothing happened . ...pressed it again and it started, of course .......she had left it running the whole time !!! .

Her comment was she was pleasantly surprised that it was so warm , the sun was shining ,all was well. Its soooo quiet was the response .... a quarter of a tank was all it took! She could have taken a cab there and back for the cost.

Ah, the realities of a W12.

Don"


----------



## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

culverwood said:


> Latest story from the Vortex:
> 
> "Christmas Shopping with a W12
> 
> ...


.............. and I'll always thank God for Ferdinand Karl Piech who made all this possible. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## JayJay (Oct 8, 2007)

I test drove a W12 when they first appeared on the U.S. market. It's a very nice car.


----------

