# Forgiveness--ugh!



## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

I found all of these wonderful quotes about the importance of forgiveness and the importance of apologizing. But...
They don't tell you how to forgive! It's really hard! Any advice?

1) "When you give up vengeance, make sure you are not giving up on
justice. The line between the two is faint, unsteady, and
fine...Vengeance is our own pleasure of seeing someone who hurt us
getting it back and then some. Justice, on the other hand, is secure
when someone pays a fair penalty for wronging another even if the
injured person takes no pleasure in the transaction. Vengeance is
personal satisfaction. Justice is moral accounting...Human forgiveness
does not do away with human justice."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And
Don't Know How

2) A [seemingly] unforgivable injury is a profound and irreversible
assault on the fundamental belief system of the person who has been
injured...It is not the battering but what happens to a battered
woman's beliefs as a result of the battering that makes [the injury
seemingly so] unforgivable...[the most serious] injuries separate
people from the very ideas they once believed were true--beliefs about
themselves, the world, other people, good and bad, right and wrong,
the future, and even the validity of the history they have shared with
the person who hurt them...The forgiving process is one in which both
morality and meaning are defined and redefined until the world again
makes sense [to the person injured]."
Beverly Flanigan - Forgiving The Unforgivable: Overcoming the Legacy
of Intimate Wounds

3) "We attach our feelings to the moment when we were hurt, endowing it
with immortality. And we let it assault us every time it comes to
mind. It travels with us, sleeps with us, hovers over us while we make
love, and broods over us while we die. Our hate does not even have the
decency to die when those we hate die--for it is a parasite sucking
OUR blood, not theirs. There is only one remedy for it. [forgiveness]
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

4) "When we forgive evil we do not excuse it, we do not tolerate it, we
do not smother it. We look the evil full in the face, call it what it
is, let its horror shock and stun and enrage us, and only then do we
forgive it."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

5) All the years you have waited for them to "make it up to you" and all
the energy you expended trying to make them change (or make them pay)
kept the old wounds from healing and gave pain from the past free rein
to shape and even damage your life. And still they may not have
changed. Nothing you have done has made them change. Indeed, they may
never change. Inner peace is found by changing yourself, not the
people who hurt you. And you change yourself for yourself, for the
joy, serenity, peace of mind, understanding, compassion, laughter, and
bright future that you get."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And
Don't Know How

6) "You will know that forgiveness has begun when you recall those who
hurt you and feel the power to wish them well."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

7) "Their pain [the injurer's pain at having injured you] and your pain
create the point and counterpoint for the rhythm of reconciliation.
When the beat of their pain is a response to the beat of yours, they
have become truthful in their feelings...they have moved a step closer
to a truthful reunion."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

8) "Forgiving does not usually happen at once. It is a process, sometimes
a long one, especially when it comes to wounds gouged deep. And we
must expect some lapses...some people seem to manage to finish off
forgiving in one swoop of the heart. But when they do, you can bet
they are forgiving flesh wounds. Deeper cuts take more time and can
use a second coat."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And
Don't Know How

9) "I worry about fast forgivers. They tend to forgive quickly in order
to avoid their pain. Or they forgive fast in order to get an advantage
over the people they forgive. And their instant forgiving only makes
things worse...People who have been wronged badly and wounded deeply
should give themselves time and space before they forgive...There is a
right moment to forgive. We cannot predict it in advance; we can only
get ourselves ready for it when it arrives...Don't do it quickly, but
don't wait too long...If we wait too long to forgive, our rage settles
in and claims squatter's rights to our souls."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And
Don't Know How

10) To err is human; but contrition felt for the crime distinguishes the
virtuous from the wicked. [It., D'uomo e il fallir, ma dal malvagio il
buono Scerne il dolor del fallo.]
Author: Vittorio Alfieri

11) It is never too late to turn from the errors of our ways: He who
repents of his sins is almost innocent. [Lat., Nam sera nunquam est ad
bonos mores via. Quem peonitet peccasse, paene est innocens.]
Author: Seneca (Lucius Annaeus Seneca)

12) Repentance for silence is better than repentance for speaking.
Author: Moorish Proverb


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I forgive you for that post.


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## davidhm (Jan 8, 2006)

*Dude... there are better places to ask*

Um, I know you can post more or less what you want in the interchange, but do you really expect to glean great wisdom from the answers your going to get here? You're asking something profound in a web bulletin board frequented by people who know what a button hook is for, know where to get a good price on an antique one, and argue about whether the same button hook is appropriate for right and left-handed men over 6'2''.

Get a rabbi, get a priest, get a therapist, get a dog.


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

Thanks...and I forgive you for being a jack***


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

Wow, you are really short selling yourself davidhm! I made the (perhaps incorrect) inference that people who were of a socio/economic class high enough to be able to take such detailed interest in style and fashion would probably also be well-educated; and hence insightful and intellectually curious--and maybe have some advice to offer. Not to mention that you are all human and so surely some of you have faced similar dilemmas. I don't need a religious leader...I'm a humanist...hence why I posted this message on a board with fellow (presumably intelligent and reflective) humans. And I have a dog--he doesn't have opinions on forgiveness.


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## davidhm (Jan 8, 2006)

*Humanist or not, the first couple of guys still might have something*

You're asking a BIG question. It's going to take a lot of time to answer it well. Regardless of the people here, the medium isn't great for getting thoughtful, contemplative answers to BIG questions. You're likely to get a dashed off bit of guff. And if you respond to that by calling a long-standing member of a board to which you are a new guest by making insults, well, you may not get any responses at all.

Those priest types spend a lot of time thinking about these questions. I'm not suggesting that they're the people to ask because they've got the right book to flip open and go, ah, simple, to forgive XYZ stop eating peanut butter on Wednesdays. I do think that they are people who have devoted a great deal of thought to the issue and might be prepared to talk at length with you about it, for less than the therapist.

As to the dog, he doesn't have the answers, but a discussion with him might give structure to your own contemplation.

One little bit of the Dali Lama's writings that I remember (or more likely, commentary thereon) discussed the technique of spending real time, an hour a day, contemplating what is like to be someone else, someone particular. If you really contemplate their life, their dreams, their injuries, their needs and motivations, you may come to understand why they acted as they did. That understanding may ground forgiveness. Even if the understanding doesn't come, the exercise may foster empathy.

Good luck.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I can tell from your first three posts, you really are just too highly strung for real forgiveness. Poor lad.


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

davidhm, thanks for passing on the contemplation exercise--it's interesting. 
And, look, when someone is rude I'm going to call them on it--regardless of their status. 
Finally...I'm not high strung at all...wasn't the dog joke convincing enough


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jkins25 said:


> davidhm, thanks for passing on the contemplation exercise--it's interesting.
> And, look, when someone is rude I'm going to call them on it--regardless of their status.
> Finally...I'm not high strung at all...wasn't the dog joke convincing enough


I guess one man's rude is another man's humour.

Seriously, if you need to read and quote a book on how to forgive, you probably do not have it within you. It is one of those things that cannot be learned, only shown the path to.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

jkins25 said:


> I made the (perhaps incorrect) inference that people who were of a socio/economic class high enough to be able to take such detailed interest in style and fashion would probably also be well-educated; and hence insightful and intellectually curious--and maybe have some advice to offer.


While there are obviously some well educated folks participating in this forum, given the abundance of grammatical and spelling errors showing up in so many postings I'm not so sure that statement can be applied across the board. Now having said that, let me also say that I don't think that education or socio-economic class gives one any special advantage when the topic is "insight". Some of the wisest, most insightful people I have ever known have been poor and uneducated. I'm not so sure that the poor and uneducated don't actually have a better window on life than those who live under more fortunate circumstances.

With regard to forgiveness, I believe that the only person who has the moral authority to forgive another is the person who suffered the wrong or injustice. Every day I witness examples of requests for forgiveness and the granting of forgiveness, by proxy. If you didn't commit the wrong you can't offer an apology, and if you weren't the one wronged you can't accept it. Beyond that I have nothing else to offer on the subject.

Cruiser


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Ironic, or serendipity, but I just walked in from forgiveness vespers on the eve of Great Lent. It was very moving. After a brief liturgy we began a single column walking up to our priest. We asked for foregiveness and he replying asking for ours. This exchange was repeated until every person made this exchangeto everyone. Many of us then went to In and Out for a untraditional, but lovely last cheeseburger binge before the 40 days of fasting. I ate two double doubles. A cheeseburger sitting outside watching the evening freeway traffic go by may not seem much. But I was among friends, my fiancee is safe and I have a modest income after a long unemployment. Suddenly I realised all the ex girlfriends, nemesis at past jobs and 90% of the drivers in California had failed to do any mortal wound to my being. I forgave them all. I let go. You need to let go, starting with all these readings that have utterly failed you. Go out and experience a little more life.


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

Your point about education and insight is 100% correct Cruiser. I happen to have a PhD in philosophy, but most of my family never had the opportunity to get college degrees--and some of them are among the wisest people I know. But, I also think that people who are fortunate often have the time and privilege to be able to reflect on these things more. I also think that people who got an education (well, depending on the college I guess) have had the privilege of having this type of reflection encouraged and fostered.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Single quotation marks on insight please. I forgive your grammatical error.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jkins25 said:


> I happen to have a PhD in philosophy...


Yet here you are asking us about forgiveness? Life is funny.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Philosophy is one of those degrees 3 points below Archaeology in terms of job prospects. Reminds me of an old New Yorker cartoon. Man's walking in the forest with his son. He says " It's good to know about trees. Just remember, nobody pays you to know about trees."


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

_"Forgive me my sadness. Evening has come; forgive me that evening has come."_


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Kav said:


> Single quotation marks on insight please. I forgive your grammatical error.


That is not a grammatical error. Single quotation marks are used to set off a quote within a quote. That is not what I did. Sometimes they are used to set off a word from the rest of the sentence; however, I was quoting a word used by another. In such cases the use of double quotation marks is not only acceptable, but correct.

I will forgive you for not knowing the proper use of quotation marks.

Cruiser


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Kav said:


> Philosophy is one of those degrees 3 points below Archaeology in terms of job prospects. Reminds me of an old New Yorker cartoon. Man's walking in the forest with his son. He says " It's good to know about trees. Just remember, nobody pays you to know about trees."


There was a time in my life when I really felt my calling was to be a Phil. prof. Having the head of a Phil. department tell me it was a certain route to financial worries cured me of that career path.

I forgave the gentleman for shattering my dreams.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Sometimes you need to go out and beat something to get it out of your system; if you live by some big rocks and branchs then beat the rock until the anger is gone, this way you will hurt nobody.

Somewhere you need to start saying to yourself that you forgive. Doing this, sometimes you hit a hard spot, or even lots of them, which need to be resolved one at a time.

This is perhaps the best method. Turn the problem into an interesting story and tell it to somebody, or several people- like in an elevator. In telling the story you blame no one, but let others be the judge with out asking them to judge (these people will never tell you what they think). In telling the story you can not leave anything out, even your errors, but put nothing that is unneccesary in. This is good in two ways, one you are getting rid of the problem and second other people have bad times too, and when hearing somebody elses story they don't feel like they are the only one having a hard time (we all have difficult people to be around now and then or more). If the problem comes back to you, then you left something out that is important, so the story needs to be retold, or some of it anyway.

Water under the bridge and gone forever down the stream.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Performs the following act from a great altitude upon Cruiser's bluejeans """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Justice is a requirement of the world; forgiveness is a requirement of the heart.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

jkins25 said:


> I found all of these wonderful quotes about the importance of forgiveness and the importance of apologizing. But...
> They don't tell you how to forgive! It's really hard! Any advice?


Here's some good advice from the Apostle Paul, from chapter 12 of his Letter to the Romans:



> 17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
> "If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
> if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
> In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Kav said:


> Performs the following act from a great altitude upon Cruiser's bluejeans """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


I haven't the faintest idea what act it is that you are performing; however, your nonsensical response is typical of how too many respond when they have no response.

By the way, blue jeans is two words, not one. Also, let me save you the trouble of responding and saying that you contacted a couple of folks to tell them that you posted it that way on purpose just to see how fast I would point it out. There, I said it for you. Besides, you've used that line before when you screwed something up. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

Ha...I just secured a job at a medical school teaching a little philosophy to med students and spending most of my time thinking and writing about it...it starts at 90. A PhD in philosophy does not *necessarily* lead to financial ruin!


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

The OP is interesting; as I read, I thought of wrongs done to me, worngs I've done to others. I appreciated the quotes as distilled wisdom, best taken slowly and with contemplation. Thank you.

Further, looking at some of the first flippant responses, I'm reminded:

it is a waste of time teaching a pig to sing
pigs can't sing
and it annoys the pig​
-probably porcine​


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

tabasco said:


> The OP is interesting; as I read, I thought of wrongs done to me, worngs I've done to others. I appreciated the quotes as distilled wisdom, best taken slowly and with contemplation. Thank you.
> 
> Further, looking at some of the first flippant responses, I'm reminded:
> 
> ...


Well done. Not that it matters, but the top tier universities in the English speaking parts of the world tend to, at the undergraduate level, specialise in useless subjects like philosophy amongst others and have a noticeable deficiency in offering useful, vocational subjects like business administration which appear to be more of a speciality in second and third tier universities. I also understand that in ranking the test results of American law school entrance exams by the examinee's undergraduate degree, philosophy outranks all others by a large margin. Some trivia on a Monday...:icon_smile:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jkins25 said:


> Ha...I just secured a job at a medical school teaching a little philosophy to med students and spending most of my time thinking and writing about it...it starts at 90. A PhD in philosophy does not *necessarily* lead to financial ruin!


I do not believe I said "ruin". I said "worries". And at 90k, you will have worries. Also, MSU does not have a medical school to my knowledge. Now you have to tell us you are moving out of Lansing.

Apparently, from the status you confer on your wage, you are of the world.


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

Thanks for all of the replies guys. Here's what I like about them: none of them require that the person who wronged you recognize that they did or apologize for it (which in my case is true--and what I have found most difficult). Putting yourself in their shoes mindfully every day, beating rocks, realizing that they failed to do any mortal wrong to my being, telling the story to others to get it out of your system etc. Cool.


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

Trust me, I won't have worries with 90, good insurance, and no kids to support...as a grad student I've been living on 10!!!!! And MSU *does* have a med school, but that's not where I'm working...I *am* moving.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Congratulations on the good job. With your training and degree in philosophy, you probably know more than most of us in regard to the answer to your question, anyway.

Good luck as you work your way through this. I hope you don't have a personal matter troubling you.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jkins25 said:


> Trust me, I won't have worries with 90, good insurance, and no kids to support...as a grad student I've been living on 10!!!!! And MSU *does* have a med school, but that's not where I'm working...I *am* moving.


You certainly do seem of the world for a Ph.D. in Philosophy. And I tell you with _a posterori_ knowledge, 90k goes very fast. But you are all _a priori_ quite obviously. And one never knows what the future holds.

So share with us what your thesis was on and what med school you shall be teaching at. 90k is a tenure track sounding salary and I am amazed someone right out of grad school would get such a position. I have a two friends that do teach Philosophy, at that was not their experience at all.


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

You know Wayfarer, I'm having the following experience with you:
--You are challenging me to defend myself in various ways
--When I do, you then insult me by calling me worldly etc. 
It's an interesting cycle. Anyway, here's the defense you requested:
Yes, it is a tenure track job. And it is at Baylor College of Medicine. I'll be starting there in August. I had 2 other TT offers from philosophy departments...and you are correct...the job market in philosophy is very difficult...I have both worked very hard and have been very fortunate.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

jkins25 said:


> You know Wayfarer, I'm having the following experience with you:
> --You are challenging me to defend myself in various ways
> --When I do, *you then insult me by calling me worldly* etc.
> It's an interesting cycle. Anyway, here's the defense you requested:
> Yes, it is a tenure track job. And it is at Baylor College of Medicine. I'll be starting there in August. I had 2 other TT offers from philosophy departments...and you are correct...the job market in philosophy is very difficult...I have both worked very hard and have been very fortunate.


Nah, that's just Wayfarer being Wayfarer (I hope).


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Blue jeans are two words when there is something between them.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jkins25 said:


> You know Wayfarer, I'm having the following experience with you:
> --You are challenging me to defend myself in various ways
> --When I do, you then insult me by calling me worldly etc.
> It's an interesting cycle. Anyway, here's the defense you requested:
> Yes, it is a tenure track job. And it is at Baylor College of Medicine. I'll be starting there in August. I had 2 other TT offers from philosophy departments...and you are correct...the job market in philosophy is very difficult...I have both worked very hard and have been very fortunate.


You must forgive me. :icon_smile_big:

My first post to you was flippant, yet I thought rather humourous, but you took it too seriously and things went down hill from there. Also, a couple of us, myself included, have been dropping certain quotes and allusions thinking you would pick up on them given your Ph.D. The "wordly" was, of course, one of those allusions. You failed to play off it. At least one other well known philosopher has been quoted to you and you failed to play off that too. A lowly peon like myself caught it though.

Congrats on your new job. 90k should go far in Houston, the cost of living is much lower than Lansing.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> You must forgive me. :icon_smile_big:


ROFLM*O


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

Wayfarer: 
1. Flippant but rude...and I do take rudeness seriously. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. 
2. Um, yes, I "picked up on" worldly and a posteriori...I just think that your responses have been rude. Sorry I disappointed you in failing to "play" in response. 
3. No one said or implied that you were "lowly"
4. Philosophy is actually not about catching allusions or quotes from philosophical figures. 
5. I am quite aware of the cost of living in Houston...trust me, I will be fine--thanks for your concern though!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jkins25 said:


> Wayfarer:
> 1. Flippant but rude...and I do take rudeness seriously. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.


Me thinks it's yourself you take seriously. But then again, we are all guilty of that from time to time. The usual advice is, "Lighten up Francis!"



jkins25 said:


> 2. Um, yes, I "picked up on" worldly and a posteriori...I just think that your responses have been rude. Sorry I disappointed you in failing to "play" in response.


There was more than that, by people other than me.



jkins25 said:


> 3. No one said or implied that you were "lowly"
> 4. Philosophy is actually not about catching allusions or quotes from philosophical figures.


Usually trotting out one's creds is done with a reason, namely to show others the standing they feel they have (that others might lack). Notice no one else has trotted out their academic or professional credentials. Also, thank for telling me what philosophy is not about. I am well aware of philosophy's five disciplines (I include logic, I am well aware some do not).

I have yet to be forgiven by you, but I extend my forgiveness to you regarding your pompousity. :icon_smile_big:


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## jkins25 (Aug 30, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> Me thinks it's yourself you take seriously. But then again, we are all guilty of that from time to time. The usual advice is, "Lighten up Francis!"
> *No, it's really your rudeness I take seriously. But we are all guilty of being rude sometimes. For that I forgive you! *
> 
> There was more than that, by people other than me.
> ...


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> I have yet to be forgiven by you


But that's the whole point of the OP, isn't it? The guy wants to know how to forgive, and you keep asking for forgiveness without telling him how!! Now, that is rude, indeed. :icon_smile_big:


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Me thinks it's yourself you take seriously. But then again, we are all guilty of that from time to time. *The usual advice is,* *"Lighten up Francis!"*


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

misterdonuts said:


> But that's the whole point of the OP, isn't it? The guy wants to know how to forgive, and you keep asking for forgiveness without telling him how!! Now, that is rude, indeed. :icon_smile_big:


:icon_smile_big:

Touche!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Forgive me,for I have sinned.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Kav said:


> Blue jeans are two words when there is something between them.


I wonder what THAT is?


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## StickPig (Feb 8, 2008)

Surely you have read Enchiridion by Epictetus. Therein lies your answer.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

StickPig said:


> Surely you have read Enchiridion by Epictetus. Therein lies your answer.


Sorry,I hardly read books Stickpig.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I have yet to be forgiven by you, but I extend my forgiveness to you regarding your pompousity. :icon_smile_big:


Didn't Genghis Kahn say to kill people that forgive before being asked?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Didn't Genghis Kahn say to kill people that forgive before being asked?


Did I ever tell you my wife carries his genetic marker? Her father did the cheek swab thing and sure enough.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Did I ever tell you my wife carries his genetic marker? Her father did the cheek swab thing and sure enough.


Well, if you told her about this forgiveness discussion you should sleep with one eye open.

IIRC it was Kublai (grandson?) that was also the unforgiving sort and it cost them the dynasty. I'm not sure what that proves other than that Arik should have asked for Kublai's forgiveness.

I freely admit I needed a google/wiki assist on "Arik" which just proves the point - I cannot remember (nor do I think most remember) Kublai Kahn's brother's name becuase he never asked for forgiveness and Kublai would not forgive him unless he asked! 

Maybe you should try separate bedrooms just to be safe?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Meditation for the day: If a relevant Nietzsche quote passes over a philosopher's head does it disrupt the air column?


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## StickPig (Feb 8, 2008)

Howard said:


> Sorry,I hardly read books Stickpig.


Now that is funny! I should have made it clear I was responding to the original poster. Although, I'd love to hear what Epictetus would say about bluejeans vs blue jeans.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Meditation for the day: If a relevant Nietzsche quote passes over a philosopher's head does it disrupt the air column?


Philosophy is not about knowing quotes. I have that on good authority.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Philosophy is not about knowing quotes. I have that on good authority.


Oh? I am pragmatically skeptical that you can realistically rationalize your ideals without empirical analysis. Consequentially, reason would have to be applied to such an existential phenomenon.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Oh? I am pragmatically skeptical that you can realistically rationalize your ideals without empirical analysis. Consequentially, reason would have to be applied to such an existential phenomenon.


Does the shape of the universe have any impact on this metaphysic?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

StickPig said:


> I'd love to hear what Epictetus would say about bluejeans vs blue jeans.


Probably nothing; however, Google _bluejeans definition_ with it as one word and Google says:

Did you mean: *blue jeans* definition

Hmmmmm. Seems to be two words. _Webster_ says:

Main Entry: blue jeans 
Function: _noun plural_ 
Date: 1901 *:* pants usually made of blue denim

Dang, two words again. They must not know that it's supposed to be one word. Don't get your bowels in an uproar Kav, I'm just having some fun. After all, it is the interchange. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I think # 9 comes closest to the mark. It's one thing to say you've forgiven somebody, but you won't really get there until you're ready.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Does the shape of the universe have any impact on this metaphysic?


This universe? No, but perhaps others do.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> This universe? No, but perhaps others do.


Do not fall into the synthetic mistake Mr. Analytic did


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Ha ha, there is no universe


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Do not fall into the synthetic mistake Mr. Analytic did


You say synthetic, I say Socratic.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> You say synthetic, I say Socratic.


Now you are getting the method.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Now you are getting the method.


_"Forgive me my sadness."_

_"I endure eternally."_


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

This thread has had a profound effect on me. To all of you who were really nasty to me over on the other forum, who said vile things to me that were totally uncalled for, who displayed the absolute lowest standards of civil behavior, all because I wear jeans; I forgive all of you. I now consider you close and dear friends whose friendship I will nurture and cherish. 

NOT!!!!!! Dang, That was close. I don't know what got into me. :icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> This thread has had a profound effect on me. To all of you who were really nasty to me over on the other forum, who said vile things to me that were totally uncalled for, who displayed the absolute lowest standards of civil behavior, all because I wear jeans; I forgive all of you. I now consider you close and dear friends whose friendship I will nurture and cherish.
> 
> NOT!!!!!! Dang, That was close. I don't know what got into me. :icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


I forgive your attempts at humour. :icon_smile:


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> This thread has had a profound effect on me. To all of you who were really nasty to me over on the other forum, who said vile things to me that were totally uncalled for, who displayed the absolute lowest standards of civil behavior, all because I wear jeans; I forgive all of you. I now consider you close and dear friends whose friendship I will nurture and cherish.
> 
> NOT!!!!!! Dang, That was close. I don't know what got into me. :icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


Wait a minute! You wear blue jeans? That changes everything!!!! :icon_smile_wink:


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

How did we work blue jeans in here?

Oh well.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> How did we work blue jeans in here?
> 
> Oh well.


Where there is Cruiser, there are jeans, sneakers, and black odd trousers. We forgive him.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Where there is Cruiser, there are jeans, sneakers, and black odd trousers.


Go back and review this thread and you will find that I am not the person who brought up the subject. In fact, go back and review every post I have made in all of these forums and I think you will find that I seldom, if ever, bring up the subject.

What you will find is me responding to someone else who brought it up; however, when the herd mentality takes over the select few who like to attack me there isn't much I can do. I'm used to it now.

Cruiser


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> Go back and review this thread and you will find that I am not the person who brought up the subject. In fact, go back and review every post I have made in all of these forums and I think you will find that I seldom, if ever, bring up the subject.
> 
> What you will find is me responding to someone else who brought it up; however, when the herd mentality takes over the select few who like to attack me there isn't much I can do. I'm used to it now.
> 
> Cruiser


Lighten up Francis, I was kidding you. Even guys in jeans and sneakers can take themselves too seriously! :icon_smile:


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Scoundrel said:


> Ha ha, there is no universe


Does that mean there's no Planet Earth either?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Lighten up Francis, I was kidding you. Even guys in jeans and sneakers can take themselves too seriously! :icon_smile:


Sorry everyone, I forgot the smily face. I didn't mean for it to come across that serious. There was supposed to be a smily after "herd mentality". I'm just trying to have some fun in this forum. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Lighten up Francis, I was kidding you. Even guys in jeans and sneakers can take themselves too seriously! :icon_smile:


_"Lighten up Francis"._ I think Wayfarer has coined a phrase here.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Howard said:


> Does that mean there's no Planet Earth either?


Perhaps not to the scientific observer.

The very word you use is binded to the English language. We shouldn't assume language, much less English, is universal, and, additionally, we shouldn't assume that words contain universal meaning.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Scoundrel said:


> Perhaps not to the scientific observer.
> 
> The very word you use is binded to the English language. We shouldn't assume language, much less English, is universal, and, additionally, we shouldn't assume that words contain universal meaning.


I think it was Lewis Carrol who said that "words don't mean; people mean."


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Scoundrel said:


> we shouldn't assume that words contain universal meaning.


Ain't that the truth. I've heard that there are people who actually refer to coke as pop or soda. Damn yankees. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> Ain't that the truth. I've heard that there are people who actually refer to coke as pop or soda. Damn yankees. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


When I was a kid in Texas, those were class-weighted words, and drinks. The wealthier and (usually) more educated people drank, and referred to their drink as, Coke, or Pepsi or Dr. Pepper, etc.; other folks drank soda pop, usually cherry or strawberry. The dividing drink seemed to be Orange Crush.


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

Scoundrel said:


> Perhaps not to the scientific observer.
> 
> The very word you use is *binded* to the English language. We shouldn't assume language, much less English, is universal, and, additionally, we shouldn't assume that words contain universal meaning.


Did you perhaps mean *bound* ?

- unfortunate editor


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*I have your answer.*



jkins25 said:


> I found all of these wonderful quotes about the importance of forgiveness and the importance of apologizing. But...
> They don't tell you how to forgive! It's really hard! Any advice?


I'm not religious, and I rarely go to church, but..........

Forgiveness is a religious belief.
It is the main theme of Christianity more so than any other religion. We can all agree on that, whether youre a believer or not. The New Testament is the end all be all written text of forgiveness.

Forgiveness is simple.

The Lord says, "Let vengence be mine"
Why does He say that?
He knows if you try to avenge ourself you will more than likely end up in more trouble or suffer deeper pains from the law.

There is a physics behind forgiveness.
1> Someone/thing has given you a pain.
The pain can not just disappear because you say I forgive you.
The pain has to be removed from your soul.
Many kinds of pain requiring forgiveness can create physical health problems as well. High blood pressure stress, etc.
You must physically give up the pain. In order to do so you must know that justice will be served.
God is a great punisher as well as redeemer.

2> God says, "Give that pain to Me and I will either punish that person in time or reward you or both for your forgiveness of them and your faith in Me. 
God, is willing to forgive us all. Is it too much of Him to ask us to forgive others????
Bottom line is this.

You can say you have forgiven all you want, but without faith in God to redeem your pain and deliver you justice it is impossible.
Forgiveness is a religious concept.

Whatever you do, do not seek justice outside of the legal system and even then, payback and justice done by your own hands does not equal forgiveness. Dont confuse the two.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Cruiser said:


> Ain't that the truth. I've heard that there are people who actually refer to coke as pop or soda. Damn yankees. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


Hey,Don't blame the Yankees for their loss.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

> Forgiveness is a religious concept.


Bingo

Secularism steals religious concepts such as forgiveness, among many others, and claims the concepts as its own.

Amusing


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Forgiveness is also an apology too.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

rip said:


> When I was a kid in Texas, those were class-weighted words, and drinks. The wealthier and (usually) more educated people drank, and referred to their drink as, Coke, or Pepsi or Dr. Pepper, etc.; other folks drank soda pop, usually cherry or strawberry.


That surprises me that it was that way in Texas. In most of the areas that I am familiar with in the South most folks called all soft drinks "cokes" regardless of the brand. I had never heard soft drinks called "pop", "soda", or "soda pop" until I went to Michigan in the mid-1950's.

I remember my Aunt asking for a show of hands as to who wanted sodas. For some reason that didn't sound like something I wanted so I declined. Much to my dismay she reappeared from the store with Cokes for everyone who had raised their hand. Who knew? :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Scoundrel said:


> Bingo
> 
> Secularism steals religious concepts such as forgiveness, among many others, and claims the concepts as its own.
> 
> Amusing


That is the most amusing thing anyone has said on this thread so far!


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