# American-style "Venetian" loafers?



## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

As re-popularized in recent years via Take Ivy. (See fellow on the right)  Maybe not as iconic as the penny loafer, but there's probably a space in the look for them.

Here's a pair from Quoddy (they seem to mostly make them for Japan), with beefrolls, rounded vamp. (Is that the correct term?)










Private-label pair in cordovan made for a Manhattan shoe shop named Leffot, again with beefrolls.

For contrast, here we have a British-made Venetian from John Lobb.

...and here an Italian-made Venetian from Santoni.

So what are the details that distinguish an American-style Venetian loafer from your average one? Beefrolls? Something else? (Are there any?) Tintin over at The Trad says that the baseline is the old Florsheim Yuma circa 1965.

Thoughts?


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

I personally don't care for them- I always think penny-loafers or boat shoes would look better.


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## Youngster (Jun 5, 2008)

I don't mind the venetian. I tend to think less adornment always makes it more American. Case in point- darts. I maintain that philosophy whenever possible.


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## MarkfromMD (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm wearing a pair of Allen Edmonds Muldoons that I like. They look a little better in person.


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## Youngster (Jun 5, 2008)

MarkfromMD said:


> I'm wearing a pair of Allen Edmonds Muldoons that I like. They look a little better in person.


I dunno man. Is that some elastic goring? Kills me.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
LOL. As you age, you are going to learn to properly appreciate that elastic gore, incorporated in the tongue of the loafers!


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## Youngster (Jun 5, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> LOL. As you age, you are going to learn to properly appreciate that elastic gore, incorporated in the tongue of the loafers!


Things will be okay if I wear elastic. If I go for velcro shoes, however-
I hope someone will just put me out of my misery.


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

I kind of like the look of the less refined models in the OP (the beefrolls mainly). They do in fact look more American, proportions and all.

I'd still rather just buy another pair of pennies though :cool2:.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Youngster said:


> Things will be okay if I wear elastic. If I go for velcro shoes, however-
> I hope someone will just put me out of my misery.


ROFALOL! Very well played, my friend...and a surprisingly close approximation of my thoughts on wearing Velcro secured footgear!


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

Aren't the shoes pictured in Take Ivy the old Florsheim Yumas (discussed in by TinTin in the blog post linked below)?

https://thetrad.blogspot.com/2008/06/trad-mocc.html

Edit: Sorry Katon, I missed the bottom of your original post with the link to Tintin's blog.


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## Carisbrooke (Nov 12, 2008)

katon said:


> So what are the details that distinguish an American-style Venetian loafer from your average one? Beefrolls? Something else? (Are there any?) Tintin over at The Trad says that the baseline is the old Florsheim Yuma circa 1965.
> 
> Thoughts?


Interesting observation that the beefroll is a distinguishing detail of American-style Venetian loafers. Here are a couple of old-school American-style Venetians that support your theory:

From Bass' 1958 catalog









Russell Moccasin Loafer


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
That Russell Loafer venetian design looks almost good enough to have my credit card dialing in an order, on it's own! The temptations of the venetian design, soon to be available through Rider Boots, also seems to be growing daily! LOL, this is not looking good for "ye old shoe budget!"


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Youngster said:


> I don't mind the venetian. I tend to think less adornment always makes it more American. Case in point- darts. I maintain that philosophy whenever possible.


I don't know about that: how does the holy 3/2 sack, with its entirely ornamental button, the sacred ocbd with the useful collar buttons that keep your points from flapping in your face while poloing, those inconvenient pocket flaps on Press bds, etc. fit into your philosophy, Horatio?


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## Youngster (Jun 5, 2008)

The Rambler said:


> I don't know about that: how does the holy 3/2 sack, with its entirely ornamental button, the sacred ocbd with the useful collar buttons that keep your points from flapping in your face while poloing, those inconvenient pocket flaps on Press bds, etc. fit into your philosophy, Horatio?


Hmmm... You may be on to something...
What really is the general aesthetic of American clothes? 
I guess Utilitarian is probably the best description. That holds pretty well for most of the American look, except that 3/2 roll. The rest of the classic trad sack jacket yes, but the roll.
Rambler, you have shattered my worldview.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

happens to me every day :icon_smile_wink:


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## tonylumpkin (Jun 12, 2007)

Here's some pics of the "real deal". These are two pair of shell cordovan Florsheim "Yuma" venetian loafers. The first is burgundy, the second black. I almost kept these, despite them being 5 full sizes too small, just because I doubted I would ever see another pair. In the end I decided someone should be wearing them, so these iconic American loafers were sold to someone...in Germany.

*#8*
https://img329.imageshack.us/i/yuma8.jpg/
https://img525.imageshack.us/i/yuma82.jpg/
https://img41.imageshack.us/i/yuma83.jpg/
https://img522.imageshack.us/i/yuma84.jpg/https://img20.imageshack.us/i/yuma85.jpg/
*Black*
https://img9.imageshack.us/i/yumabl.jpg/
https://img14.imageshack.us/i/yumabl2.jpg/
https://img237.imageshack.us/i/yumabl3.jpg/
https://img197.imageshack.us/i/yumabl4.jpg/


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

super: make me think of james dean, somehow.


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

Rancourt & Co (do they have a website?) from Maine is making one with a camp sole through Rider Boot (who in turn is selling them through ).


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## JDDY (Mar 18, 2006)

Love the Rider Boot make-ups of these.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm considering one of the two new AE venetian loafers for my next shoe purchase sometime close to Christmas. Anyone seen either the Sanibel or Preston in person and can give their opinion? I'm leaning towards the Preston because I don't have a pair of dark brown loafers.


AE Sanibel - chili grain leather



AE Preston - dark brown saddle leather


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Some Venetians look cool enough. Others, especially the really cheap ones you see a lot, I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.


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## erbs (Feb 18, 2008)

I'm not sure if I like Venetians or not, but I definitely think they look better with a higher vamp.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Looking back at my old yearbooks from the 60s I noticed at least as many Venetians as I did penny loafers...mostly with beefrolls. I recall having a pair myself. I don't recall them being referred to as "Venetians" back in the day--but they may have been by the more enlightened.

Interesting that Rambler mentions they remind him of James Dean. They remind me of Elvis, who wore them often before going in the Army. James Dean was one of his idols.

I really like the look of those AE's. I'm getting that feeling again! Oh noooooo.....


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## erbs (Feb 18, 2008)

Did Dean actually wear Venetians? Pics?


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## ButtonedDown (Sep 14, 2010)

They're not anything special like the shoes pictured above, but Kohl's is having a sale on Nunn Bush Bradley loafers. With the coupon code love2save30 + the Kohl's current free shipping with a $50 purchase, these shoes come in at under $60 for 3 pairs, delivered to your door. Not tradly, but a decent shoe for knocking around. And a heckuva deal.

https://www.kohls.com/kohlsStore/shoes/mens/casual/PRD~554339/Nunn+Bush+Bradley+SlipOn+Shoes.jsp

--bill


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

It's less of a deal than you think. I had a pair of Nunn-Bush and with very infrequent wear they started falling apart and cracking within the first year. Since then I've just kept them as shoes for stage costumes. They'll look okay enough from the audience, right?


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## ButtonedDown (Sep 14, 2010)

Jovan said:


> It's less of a deal than you think. I had a pair of Nunn-Bush and with very infrequent wear they started falling apart and cracking within the first year. Since then I've just kept them as shoes for stage costumes. They'll look okay enough from the audience, right?


I've had better luck than that with the brand, but obviously, YMMV.

--bill


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

I've always thought the Venetian style looked unfinished, like a bedroom slipper. Seem to recall that I had a pair though, in the dim adolescent past. Know I had a pair of Bass tassel loafers that were basically Venetians with the little tassel strap through a small pair of holes, kinda like Belgians


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

Rancourt made ventetian loafers available at Leffot -- made of unlined shell cordovan! Expensive though 

Natural shell:










Navy shell:










Green shell:


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

Rancourt at Brooks Brothers:
[link]









No welt? No heel?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I thought those were odd.

Florsheim Yumas are dreamy!!


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

fiddler said:


> Rancourt at Brooks Brothers:
> [link]
> 
> No welt? No heel?


Think of them as a replacement for boat shoes.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Saltydog said:


> Looking back at my old yearbooks from the 60s I noticed at least as many Venetians as I did penny loafers...mostly with beefrolls. I recall having a pair myself. I don't recall them being referred to as "Venetians" back in the day--but they may have been by the more enlightened.
> 
> Interesting that Rambler mentions they remind him of James Dean. They remind me of Elvis, who wore them often before going in the Army. James Dean was one of his idols.
> 
> I really like the look of those AE's. I'm getting that feeling again! Oh noooooo.....


I saw the same thing, in all the old movies, etc. In the 80s, when "all the kids" were wearing Weejuns, I thought those plain loafers were cool but couldn't find them anywhere. I didn't know what they were called, either.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Still loving my shell Yumas. Wear them often


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## Clay J (Apr 29, 2008)

Those Rancourts are very interesting. Is the only place you can get them online; or at the Leffot store?


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## Mannix (Nov 24, 2008)

I have a pair, by Martegani, and absolutely love them.


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## JakeLA (Oct 30, 2006)

Rancourt will make you a pair similar to the Leffots but in calf for $250


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Curse you, srivats, I really, *really *wish I had not seen those Rancourt natural shells!!


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

I have a pair of venetians in black scotchgrain, unlined, made by Bruno Magli which are my favourite shoes (although not my best-fitting). I think the plain vamp is a bit more flexible than a penny vamp and can be used in more dressy situations, although much depends on the overall shape and proportions.


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## RedBluff (Dec 22, 2009)

My favorite casual show of all time, the Cole Haan Tucker.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

phyrpowr said:


> Curse you, srivats, I really, *really *wish I had not seen those Rancourt natural shells!!





Cardinals5 said:


> Still loving my shell Yumas. Wear them often


Indeed the Rancourt shells are tempting but, the truth be known, I cannot seem to get Cardinal5's shell Yumas out of my mind! :crazy: They are quite striking.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

Alfred Sargent makes a lovely pair in suede:
(Click for bigger pics)


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

^^ Those Sargents look great. I like the idea of a suede venetian.

Looks like someone special ordered the AE Preston in brown shell cordovan and then decided they didn't want them. On eBay starting at $90, size 9D


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

Great find cards...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Find some in 11D and then we're cooking...


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## aucociscokid (Jan 17, 2006)

*What Can You Tell Me About the Original Yuma Construction?*

For a shoemaker which will make a copy of the original Yuma loafer for me: What can members whom might know tell me about its construction so it can be reproduced as authentically as possible? For instance: The original was a traditional moccasin construction, not Goodyear welted? The shoemaker is also going to be provided w/a new pair of the ones made in India. What, if any, are the differences between the two (old vs. news); other than, of course, quality?


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## makewayhomer (Mar 22, 2011)

bump.

according to this blog post, the Yuma was not made out of Horween shell, but rather a french shell cordovan. can anyone confirm, or have experience with this shell?

https://thetrad.blogspot.com/2008/06/trad-mocc.html


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Nice. I'd want a copy of those in brown Chromexcel.


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

I own a pair of the original Yumas in shell. The color looks like #6. Incredibly beautiful shoes, and comfortable.
As they are lined there's no way to see if there's the Horween stamping on the reverse side.



makewayhomer said:


> bump.
> 
> according to this blog post, the Yuma was not made out of Horween shell, but rather a french shell cordovan. can anyone confirm, or have experience with this shell?
> 
> https://thetrad.blogspot.com/2008/06/trad-mocc.html


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