# Neutral shoe polish - really?



## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

Brown shoes, scuffed at the toe. Chili-like color. J&M shoes. So what would neutral KIWI polish do? I also wonder where I can get brown edge dressing?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Never does much good, IMO.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Bjorn said:


> Never does much good, IMO.


+1.

I'd use shoe creme, neutral polish won't do anything, and creme will be far more effective at covering the scuff than wax. If you want to, you can put a very small amount of wax polish over the area after you restore the color with creme. Meltonian shoe creme is decent stuff, and doesn't cost a lot of money. It can be hard to exactly match creme color to leather, and you may need to purchase, say, three colors that you think closest, and then select the closest one when you receive them. I'd buy them mail-order, and I'm sure you can find edge dressing the same way. Fiebings makes it, as do others.

You can also use dark brown shoe creme applied with a Q-Tip in place of edge dressing, and get a good result.


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## Twinspeare (May 3, 2007)

Flanderian,
your kind reply to my other thread today notwithstanding, I must disagree with you over wax vs. "creme". The latter is basically nothing but watered-down wax polish. The reason why it appears to do a better job of covering a scuff is that it enters the minimal crack(s) caused by the scuff more easily and immediately. However, I have never had a problem polishing over any scuffs by applying just wax polish a number of times. So you may be right about the immediate effect of creme here but wax polish not only does an equally good job over time but has the additional advantage of protecting the leather at just that point where the scuff left its mark(s).


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Twinspeare said:


> Flanderian,
> your kind reply to my other thread today notwithstanding, I must disagree with you over wax vs. "creme". The latter is basically nothing but watered-down wax polish. The reason why it appears to do a better job of covering a scuff is that it enters the minimal crack(s) caused by the scuff more easily and immediately. However, I have never had a problem polishing over any scuffs by applying just wax polish a number of times. So you may be right about the immediate effect of creme here but wax polish not only does an equally good job over time but has the additional advantage of protecting the leather at just that point where the scuff left its mark(s).


I think you should use whatever you feel best, and I'm pleased that you found it works well.

There are many different formulations of shoe creme. And some contain wax, and some do not. The cremes that I prefer do not, or at least, not to any degree that I can discern. They most certainly are not watered-down wax. My experience with both shoe cremes and wax extends well over 45 years. Specifically, a good shoe creme, absent wax, has a much higher concentration of pigment per any given quantity than wax, and creme actually penetrates, and stains leather to a far greater degree than wax can.

Having first used only wax for about 25 years, then wax and creme for a very brief time, and mostly creme only for over 20, wax does little to nothing to protect leather. In fact, it tends to do the opposite. Footwear that has experienced frequent applications of wax polish will tend to begin looking aged and beaten up. I have footwear on which I've used only cremes, and after over 20 years of use, the uppers still look great and hardly worn at all.

The statement that wax polish protects leather is largely a myth that gets repeated and passed on from one supposed authority to another, but objectively, has little to no basis in fact.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Twinspeare said:


> Flanderian,
> your kind reply to my other thread today notwithstanding, I must disagree with you over wax vs. "creme". The latter is basically nothing but watered-down wax polish. The reason why it appears to do a better job of covering a scuff is that it enters the minimal crack(s) caused by the scuff more easily and immediately. However, I have never had a problem polishing over any scuffs by applying just wax polish a number of times. So you may be right about the immediate effect of creme here but wax polish not only does an equally good job over time but has the additional advantage of protecting the leather at just that point where the scuff left its mark(s).


I think that's not really true for quality stuff, the wax polish is more turpentine and waxes for a glossy shine while cremes are made differently. This is at least true for saphir medaille dor and burgol. Wax polish in my experience dries out the leather and cakes if you don't switch between.

I used to just go with kiwi parade on my black shoes but I find using more different products lessens overall time spent cleaning and redoing.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Flanderian said:


> I think you should use whatever you feel best, and I'm pleased that you found it works well.
> 
> There are many different formulations of shoe creme. And some contain wax, and some do not. The cremes that I prefer do not, or at least, not to any degree that I can discern. They most certainly are not watered-down wax. My experience with both shoe cremes and wax extends well over 45 years. Specifically, a good shoe creme, absent wax, has a much higher concentration of pigment per any given quantity than wax, and creme actually penetrates, and stains leather to a far greater degree than wax can.
> 
> ...


What he said


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Twinspeare said:


> Flanderian,
> your kind reply to my other thread today notwithstanding, I must disagree with you over wax vs. "creme". The latter is basically nothing but watered-down wax polish. The reason why it appears to do a better job of covering a scuff is that it enters the minimal crack(s) caused by the scuff more easily and immediately. However, I have never had a problem polishing over any scuffs by applying just wax polish a number of times. So you may be right about the immediate effect of creme here but wax polish not only does an equally good job over time but has the additional advantage of protecting the leather at just that point where the scuff left its mark(s).


No contradiction here. The cream will do a better job of darkening the lighter parts of the scuff, and the wax will help with that and provide a layer of protection. I would use both, and in a slightly lighter shade if the exact one can't be found. Neutral wax is for wetness protection only, and won't do much if anything for the scuff itself


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## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

Well, All my shoes in brown seem to be a variant of a walnut color, going by what I can see on Allen Edmonds site. I have none in the burnished brown and maybe some of the darker ones are bourbon. I guess I will try to find locally some Meltonian creme that is a shade lighter and see how it works on all my brown shoes. I bought the brown in Kiwi and that is just the one 
they have.

Edit to my post:

Allen Edmonds has a sale on a couple of tubes of shoe polish: Chestnut and Saddle Brown. I am thinking that gives me two colors in brown, since I dont have dark brown, with which to at least get some stuff on them. They also have chili and brown edge dressing and brown would probably be the better choice. $3 for the polish and $5.50 for the dressing and free shipping. That work? They also have chili, dark brown and walnut in the polishes for $9. Sponge applicator so I am guessing more a creme than a wax?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Your are right, the AE basically is a creme. Very easy to use with a deep matte shine. Several shoe repairs in Toledo carry a wide selection of Meltonian, Memphis is much larger so you should find a selection. My understanding is that many cremes contain some dye. While pigment will cover the leather and add color, dye will penetrate breaks in the leather. As a consequence I would start with lighter cremes and go darker until you have the effect you want.


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## StylinLa (Feb 15, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> I think you should use whatever you feel best, and I'm pleased that you found it works well.
> 
> There are many different formulations of shoe creme. And some contain wax, and some do not. The cremes that I prefer do not, or at least, not to any degree that I can discern. They most certainly are not watered-down wax. My experience with both shoe cremes and wax extends well over 45 years. Specifically, a good shoe creme, absent wax, has a much higher concentration of pigment per any given quantity than wax, and creme actually penetrates, and stains leather to a far greater degree than wax can.
> 
> ...


What he said indeed. Most creams are infused with more pigment than polishe/waxes. Let us not forget either, OP was originally asking about using neutral polish on the scuff, which will mostly make it a shiny scuff. Memphis Lawyer, as AKirshner said, there are very likely some shoe repair places in town which sell Meltonian. They have a very wide range of colors, and likely one close to your shoes. Plus, the kind of store that would sell Meltonian would likely have edge drsssing as well.

I would agree to hit it with some shoe cream, then apply the neutral polish/wax.

I also agree that overuse of polish/wax wears on the leather more than creams. (I do love Saphir polish though...wow).


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

memphislawyer said:


> Well, All my shoes in brown seem to be a variant of a walnut color, going by what I can see on Allen Edmonds site. I have none in the burnished brown and maybe some of the darker ones are bourbon. I guess I will try to find locally some Meltonian creme that is a shade lighter and see how it works on all my brown shoes. I bought the brown in Kiwi and that is just the one
> they have.
> 
> Edit to my post:
> ...


These folks will sell Meltonian cream direct via mail order, should you be interested.

Couple of bucks for a small glass jar. As I suggested, I'd order the three colors closest to what you believe matches your shoes. Odds are you will wind up using them all at some point.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Also, neutral shoe cream is actually grey. With a little dust on it even more so. It greys out the colors. 

Women are most often sold neutral shoe creme with their shoe purchases. A lot of women wear their black shoes, boots etc, very gray. 

The right color shoe creme/wax is the only thing that works. 

To add transparent waterproofing, I use an impregnation spray for finer shoes (suede, women's shoes etc) while on winter boots etc I use a grease. 

Neutral shoe polish is a for-all fit-none product.


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## Twinspeare (May 3, 2007)

Flanderian said:


> I think you should use whatever you feel best, and I'm pleased that you found it works well.
> 
> There are many different formulations of shoe creme. And some contain wax, and some do not. The cremes that I prefer do not, or at least, not to any degree that I can discern. They most certainly are not watered-down wax. My experience with both shoe cremes and wax extends well over 45 years. Specifically, a good shoe creme, absent wax, has a much higher concentration of pigment per any given quantity than wax, and creme actually penetrates, and stains leather to a far greater degree than wax can.
> 
> ...


I don't want to prolong this discussion unnecessarily, but what is myth and what is reality here? The "myth" --which I consider to be the truth-- that wax polish protects leather is certainly much older and due to much more than 45 years of experience than the real MYTH that creme (diluted by water) is better for the leather. At any rate, whether polish or creme, the important thing is that it contains terpentine oil.
I should stop here though. Ever since, a few years ago, a few crazy Germans virtually beat each other to death over this question on a German internet forum, I have thought it best not to start this discussion again.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

What color is "neutral" shoe polish?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
It is translucent. While it may mask the details of the scratching pattern, it does not completely cover the scuff.


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## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

Flanderian, I am going to check out Meltonian locally, taking some shoes with me. The shipping on that site was high, and I can get a better deal on ebay. 

What do you, or the men here, think of ordering those two Allen Edmonds colors to start off with and then trying to see if they work and picking up some Meltonian locally if these Allen Edmonds are too dark?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Twinspeare said:


> I don't want to prolong this discussion unnecessarily, but what is myth and what is reality here? The "myth" --which I consider to be the truth-- that wax polish protects leather is certainly much older and due to much more than 45 years of experience than the real MYTH that creme (diluted by water) is better for the leather. At any rate, whether polish or creme, the important thing is that it contains terpentine oil.
> I should stop here though. Ever since, a few years ago, a few crazy Germans virtually beat each other to death over this question on a German internet forum, I have thought it best not to start this discussion again.


I don't think better cremes necessarily contain turpentine. ?

I don't think sapphire does...

Are ze Germans coming?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

FWIW, here's my view. I think wax/paste and creme are two different things that do two different things well. Cremes penetrate better, change/restore color faster, and provide some moisturizing effect to the leather. Waxes provide a harder finish that is easier to buff to a high shine and that provides marginally more protection. I use them both. They each have their use. If either was manifestly superior for all purposes, they wouldn't have co-existed in the market for over a century.

If you don't have suede-containing spectators, there's rarely, if ever a need for neutral polish.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

memphislawyer said:


> Flanderian, I am going to check out Meltonian locally, taking some shoes with me. The shipping on that site was high, and I can get a better deal on ebay.


Yup! It would be ideal if you can match the shoes to the actual creme side-by-side. The only thing to be aware of is that the effect of the creme on the actual leather will always be *slightly* different than what you see in jar, or on color samples. An exception to that being black, which is just black.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Twinspeare said:


> I don't want to prolong this discussion unnecessarily, but what is myth and what is reality here? The "myth" --which I consider to be the truth-- that wax polish protects leather is certainly much older and due to much more than 45 years of experience than the real MYTH that creme (diluted by water) is better for the leather. At any rate, whether polish or creme, the important thing is that it contains terpentine oil.
> 
> I should stop here though. Ever since, a few years ago, a few crazy Germans virtually beat each other to death over this question on a German internet forum, I have thought it best not to start this discussion again.


If you want a really high gloss on your shoes wax is the only way to get it. I use it on some cheaper casual shoes with cr*ppy leather simply because there isn't another way to get them to take any shine.

I think CuffDaddy's statement that wax "provides marginally more protection" is precisely accurate. But my issue is with a blanket statement that wax will protect the leather, stated as an absolute. First, if wax provides any protection against abrasion it is minimal to the degree of being insignificant. If you stub the toe box of a shoe against a curb, the damage to the leather isn't going to differ to any degree worth discussing irrespective of whether there is wax on the shoe.

Wax is waterproof. But this is a two-edged sword regarding any advantage to having shoes polished with wax in wet weather. Early in my business career, I would polish my shoes with wax polish virtually every night. (No doubt exacerbating if not causing any problems inherent with using wax polish.) And I would often have to spend significant amounts of time walking outdoors in them.

In light rain, or for brief periods, the upper of a shoe polished with wax will tend become less saturated than one that is not. The problem with wax polishes is that they do not, and in fact cannot, remain on the entire shoe as the shoe is worn throughout the day. And the more walking that is done, the more this is true. The wax, or a portion of it, will crack off in the creases where the shoe flexes as it is being worn. This need not be a huge problem, and the thinner and more infrequent wax applications are used, the less it is a problem at all. But if a shoe has a significant amount of wax, and is worn in heavier rain or in rain for long periods, the portion of the shoe where the wax has cracked and shed *will *become wet and eventually saturated. The problem is that the water will also spread into areas of the leather that are still covered with wax. The result will be a shoe that takes longer to dry out, and one in which a soaking will tend to do more damage to the leather because of the length of time it will be trapped in the leather under the still waxed portion of shoe.

This is what I observed. And this is what I experienced.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Interesting points towards the end, there, Flanderian. I can buy that. 

But for a few drops of tea or coffee with cream that go un-noticed, I'd much rather those land on a waxed top layer.

I'm such a nerd that I often do a "base layer" of creme, and then wax on top of that. I have my theoretical justifications for that, but I acknowledge it may just be magical thinking.


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## Twinspeare (May 3, 2007)

Flanderian,
your arguments are the ones I have heard repeated every so often. Admittedly they do make as much sense as those in favour of wax polish only - which has always been my position so far, mainly because I had been under the impression that creme was basically a war/post-war substitute for the real thing (wax polish), and was subsequently marketed in the 50s and 60s, when the leather industry sought to brainwash people into buying various cremes for different kinds of leather in order to make money. Maybe I'm wrong here. So what would you advise me to do? How about using creme every second time I clean my shoes and then see what happens?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

CuffDaddy said:


> But for a few drops of tea or coffee with cream that go un-noticed, I'd much rather those land on a waxed top layer.


Yes, certainly a consideration, and possibly a trade-off, but I question how effective a form of protection it would be.

Perhaps I'll purchase a pair of EG, wax them up, and dump a cup of Starbucks on them to investigate! :icon_smile_big:

But I have glopped other food on my shoes, and cleaned it without a trace remaining using saddlesoap.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Twinspeare said:


> Flanderian,
> your arguments are the ones I have heard repeated every so often. Admittedly they do make as much sense as those in favour of wax polish only - which has always been my position so far, mainly because I had been under the impression that creme was basically a war/post-war substitute for the real thing (wax polish), and was subsequently marketed in the 50s and 60s, when the leather industry sought to brainwash people into buying various cremes for different kinds of leather in order to make money. Maybe I'm wrong here. So what would you advise me to do? How about using creme every second time I clean my shoes and then see what happens?


Yes, do experiment! That's how I came to my experience, and over time, you'll find exactly what you prefer. I originally began using creme with wax polish (On the mistaken theory that more is always better.) and switched to creme only as an expedient, accidently discovering the properties I've described through a desire to save a little time.


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## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

Well, wanted to get a pick of the only brown shoes I have for polishing. The pictures appear darker than they are in real life. I ordered the chestnut and the saddle in the AE cream and a new horse hair brush. I use an old cotton tshirt to apply my polish, now creams, with.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> It is translucent. While it may mask the details of the scratching pattern, it does not completely cover the scuff.


What about the shine?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Sufficient buffing will produce a soft shine/sheen!


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