# Word on the street re: leather soles



## oaklandish (Feb 21, 2007)

During lunch today I visited my local shoe repair shop (in San Mateo, CA) to get new taps applied. The cobbler has been in business about 20 years in that location, and seems knowledgeable about his craft. On prior occasions he's criticized San Francisco cobblers as a whole as doing cheap, shoddy work; he says they're his friends, and they confess that because their customers are far more interested in speed than quality, that is what they provide. He says he's from the old school of quality.

Anyway, while his assistant applied the taps, the cobbler struck up a conversation with me about sole leather. He said that the soles used by Allen Edmonds (and others) nowadays are "b-grade" and far inferior to what was formerly used and to the replacement soles used by cobblers. Of course, he has a pecuniary interest in doing resole work himself, rather than customers sending work to Allen Edmonds, but there it is. 

I pointed out to him that my shell cordovan Leeds, which his assistant was then working on, have J. Rendenbach soles, and he was surprised. He said that JR is the finest sole leather and that he uses it in his shop, and he rarely sees it anymore. I asked him about resoling with Rendenbach leather and he said he can do it, but that the leather is so thick he must first stitch the midsole to the (welt? I'm not sure) and then he has to glue the Rendenbach sole to the midsole. He said it cannot be stitched because it is too thick. When I objected that the gluing process would be sub-optimal, he insisted that a glued on Rendenbach would be as durable as anything that can be stitched on.

So, two questions I'd like to hear your thoughts on:

(1) Is the Allen Edmonds basic leather sole an inferior grade of leather? Is the cobbler correct that the stuff used in your local shoe repair shop is better than that used in the AE factory?

(2) Is the cobbler correct that gluing on a JR sole (to a stitched on midsole) does not sacrifice quality as compared to a fully stitched sole?

I look forward to your responses.


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## shoefan (Oct 30, 2003)

First answer re: #1: who knows? AE only use the Rendenbach for their cordovan shoes. The source(s) of their other soles are unknown to me. In my experience, the AE soles do not last as long as Alden soles, but I can't say with any scientific proof that my observation is accurate. The last American tannery of soling leather closed in 2004, and as a general matter leather quality has been declining, so it is difficult to say with any degree of certainty what the right answer is. However, I think that AE most likely uses good quality (though not the best) outsole material.

Re: #2: Rendendbach leather is tough to stitch by hand, but there is no reason he shouldn't be able to stitch it to the welt with a Landis or other outsole stitcher, which is what shoe repair people use. If the JR soles he can get are too thick, he should have a splitter that can thin them down so that he can stitch them. If he can't do it, I would send it back to AE to be resoled. As a general proposition, I don't know that JR soling leather is thicker than others', just harder/more dense. JR is still fully pit-tanned, whereas most other soling leather is made via faster but lower quality methods.

While modern day adhesives are very good and most likely would suffice in lieu of stitching, why run the risk?


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

The soling leather AE uses has more "flesh" in it than in years past. "Flesh" is loose grain. The tighter the grain the better the wear.
JR leather has the tightest grain that I have ever seen.
We use it all the time and never have problems stitching it. It is made in 3 thicknesses.


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## RightInDC (Dec 5, 2007)

If they glue the sole, would that cause problems the next time the soles are replace?


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

RightInDC said:


> If they glue the sole, would that cause problems the next time the soles are replace?


Any sole that is stitched on is glued first.
If the cement is not used properly or, the wrong cement is used, the welts may get damaged the next time the soles are removed.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

I don't have any brand new AEs, so I can't comment on how they are now. I do have several pairs that date from the 80s until, I think, 2003, and they were all quite good. The best leather I've ever had on RTW shoes, though, was on the old Florsheim Kenmoors. I have a few NOS pairs of those and have yet to wear a sole out. Damned fine leather. My cobbler, too, uses excellent replacement leather that is equal or superior to the old Florsheim stuff (naturally it's hard to tell).



Nick V said:


> The soling leather AE uses has more "flesh" in it than in years past. "Flesh" is loose grain. The tighter the grain the better the wear.
> JR leather has the tightest grain that I have ever seen.
> We use it all the time and never have problems stitching it. It is made in 3 thicknesses.


My cobbler, too, says it's no problem.


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## cobblestone (Feb 13, 2007)

*AE Leather Quality*

Allen Edmonds leather soling is not as good as in the past. It is correct that they do use Jon Rendedbach (JR) soles on their shell cordovan shoes. It is also true that Alden leather soles last much longer than AE basic soles used on their calf skin shoes. JR soles come in 5 different thicknesses which are measured in Irons in the leather industry. 7-8 Iron, 8-9 Iron, 9-10 Iron, 10-11 iron, and 11-12 iron. The higher the iron the thicker the leather. We carry them all and put on the same thickness as the original.

As far as not stitching the leather to the midsole, I don't agree with that repair shop's assessment. If he has a good outsole stitcher, there is no reason not to be able to stitch thru a welted shoe with a midsole and an outsole. However, if he does just glue it, it shouldn't come loose is glued properly. It is just not the way I would re sole a shoe. I believe in restoring the shoe to the original construction using better materials. It is what can separate the repair shop from the manufacture. There are many material options available to repair shops. You can usually judge the materials used by the prices they charge. There are not any "deals" on materials available to shoe repair shops. You get what you pay for. 
My two cents.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

oaklandish said:


> During lunch today I visited my local shoe repair shop (in San Mateo, CA) to get new taps applied. The cobbler has been in business about 20 years in that location, and seems knowledgeable about his craft. On prior occasions he's criticized San Francisco cobblers as a whole as doing cheap, shoddy work; he says they're his friends, and they confess that because their customers are far more interested in speed than quality, that is what they provide. He says he's from the old school of quality.
> 
> Anyway, while his assistant applied the taps, the cobbler struck up a conversation with me about sole leather. He said that the soles used by Allen Edmonds (and others) nowadays are "b-grade" and far inferior to what was formerly used and to the replacement soles used by cobblers. Of course, he has a pecuniary interest in doing resole work himself, rather than customers sending work to Allen Edmonds, but there it is.
> 
> ...


I'm no cobbler, but my own cobbler echos some of the same sentiment that most manufacturers use lower quality soles than do most cobbler shops. However, he said that AE and Alden use the best soles of the big RTW companies. He also prefers the standard Alden double oak sole over the AE, but he says the extra durability is due as much to the added thickness of the Alden as it is to the quality of the leather.

I personally have no problem with the AE or Alden soles. I sell both every day, and I think the in house repair work these companies do is top notch, especially considering the cost.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

It's not the thickness of the sole, it's actually the difference in the leather that Alden uses versus Allen Edmonds. Allen Edmonds soles wear out faster and if you look at them over time they splay more, meaning that they spread out to the sides of the shoe from the pressure. Alden's soles tend to stay vertical on the edges and do to what I think is denser leather, well they definitely wear out much slower than Allen Edmonds leather soles, "squishing" out less over time.

I prefer the quality control and construction at Allen Edmonds over Alden, yet materials... upper leather being tougher and sole leather lasting longer... that goes to Alden.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

Mattdeckard said:


> It's not the thickness of the sole, it's actually the difference in the leather that Alden uses versus Allen Edmonds. Allen Edmonds soles wear out faster and if you look at them over time they splay more, meaning that they spread out to the sides of the shoe from the pressure. Alden's soles tend to stay vertical on the edges and do to what I think is denser leather, well they definitely wear out much slower than Allen Edmonds leather soles, "squishing" out less over time.
> 
> I prefer the quality control and construction at Allen Edmonds over Alden, yet materials... upper leather being tougher and sole leather lasting longer... that goes to Alden.


We may be splitting hairs here but, just to clarify:
The flesh I mentioned earlier in this tread correlates to denseness of the leather. The more flesh the less dense the leather is. Fleshy leather acts as a sponge. It absorbs moisture into it's grain more readily than dense (tighter grained) leather will. Therefore when wearing shoes with a lot of flesh in the soles in even the slightest damp weather the leather will absorb the dampness. That's actually what causes the "splaying" you referred to. A dramatic comparison would be: step on a wet sponge see how it acts. Now, step on a wet piece of wood. It's the same concept. The wood has a tighter grain and is much less porous not allowing the moisture to penetrate much beyond it's surface.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

Thank you.
That is the difference between the soles on the Allen Edmonds and the Alden shoes. Alden's wear longer and splay less.

that said, I'm thinking and special order Allen Edmonds I do from now on will be with the Rendenbach soles. Though I'm still not too keen on combination leather rubber heels. I like having the grip of a full rubber heel.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

Mattdeckard said:


> Thank you.
> That is the difference between the soles on the Allen Edmonds and the Alden shoes. Alden's wear longer and splay less.
> 
> that said, I'm thinking and special order Allen Edmonds I do from now on will be with the Rendenbach soles. Though I'm still not too keen on combination leather rubber heels. I like having the grip of a full rubber heel.


If they are willing to C/O with JR soles I'm sure they would be willing to put a rubber heel on them instead of a JR combination heel.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

They will... I'm keen on the rubber heel, though enjoy the clip clop sound of the leather.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

cobblestone said:


> Allen Edmonds leather soling is not as good as in the past. It is correct that they do use Jon Rendedbach (JR) soles on their shell cordovan shoes. It is also true that Alden leather soles last much longer than AE basic soles used on their calf skin shoes. JR soles come in 5 different thicknesses which are measured in Irons in the leather industry. 7-8 Iron, 8-9 Iron, 9-10 Iron, 10-11 iron, and 11-12 iron. The higher the iron the thicker the leather. We carry them all and put on the same thickness as the original.
> 
> As far as not stitching the leather to the midsole, I don't agree with that repair shop's assessment. If he has a good outsole stitcher, there is no reason not to be able to stitch thru a welted shoe with a midsole and an outsole. However, if he does just glue it, it shouldn't come loose is glued properly. It is just not the way I would re sole a shoe. I believe in restoring the shoe to the original construction using better materials. It is what can separate the repair shop from the manufacture. There are many material options available to repair shops. You can usually judge the materials used by the prices they charge. There are not any "deals" on materials available to shoe repair shops. You get what you pay for.
> My two cents.


We ran through a thread like this a few weeks back, but not much changes in the world. Some folks on this board said AE's Cordovan was inferior to Alden's and that they received seconds. One of the folks from Horween (the supplier of Cordovan to both companies) came on here and stated the hide was identical for both. Now we have a discussion of soles and this discussion is traveling along the same lines. I don't get it. Why not a fact based discussion based on the quality of leathers and specific and measurable criteria? Why conjecture? I know you are a cobbler and I am not, but I am not uninformed. I just think that what you folks do by failing to deal in facts is disingenous and less than honorable.

What I can tell you is the following: on The Shoe Mart's web site, the equivalent Cap Toe Balmoral's are $325 for the AE Park Ave and $394 for the Alden Straight Tip Bal. That, factually speaking, is $69.00 difference. Around where I live you can get your soles replaced for about the same. AE will rebuild the shoes for $95. I think Alden makes a great shoe, but I don't get why people have to tear Allen Edmonds down without facts.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

^ I agree with the spirit of this ("Why do you have to tear down X in order to praise Y"), but I don't understand the implication that there's a lack of specific and measurable criteria in the preceding discussion. There is talk of specific types of leather, and degree of splay, and "flesh" content, and the people doing the talking are well-informed, near as I can tell. Are you complaining because it doesn't rise to the level of a scientific paper?

Of course there's always the question of integrity--are people trying their best to be objective and truthful?--but that's a whole separate issue. Someone willing to lie can quote micrometer readings all day.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Kurt N said:


> ^ I agree with the spirit of this ("Why do you have to tear down X in order to praise Y"), but I don't understand the implication that there's a lack of specific and measurable criteria in the preceding discussion. There is talk of specific types of leather, and degree of splay, and "flesh" content, and the people doing the talking are well-informed, near as I can tell. Are you complaining because it doesn't rise to the level of a scientific paper?
> 
> Of course there's always the question of integrity--are people trying their best to be objective and truthful?--but that's a whole separate issue. Someone willing to lie can quote micrometer readings all day.


Sorry but I don't agree with your comments related to specific and measureable criteria. Look at the post I copied, do you see any comments which say this is the type of leather used by Alden and this is the type used by AE? No. Perhaps it is my background which causes me to look at such posts with a critical eye, but to me one cannot posit something is "good" or "better" without first establishing the criteria by which it has been judged.

To the point read this: "Allen Edmonds leather soling is not as good as in the past. It is correct that they do use Jon Rendedbach (JR) soles on their shell cordovan shoes. It is also true that Alden leather soles last much longer than AE basic soles used on their calf skin shoes. JR soles come in 5 different thicknesses which are measured in Irons in the leather industry. 7-8 Iron, 8-9 Iron, 9-10 Iron, 10-11 iron, and 11-12 iron. The higher the iron the thicker the leather. We carry them all and put on the same thickness as the original."

Should you see the kind of facts which would support the argument layed out by the author, please point them out.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

gman-17 said:


> We ran through a thread like this a few weeks back, but not much changes in the world. Some folks on this board said AE's Cordovan was inferior to Alden's and that they received seconds. One of the folks from Horween (the supplier of Cordovan to both companies) came on here and stated the hide was identical for both. Now we have a discussion of soles and this discussion is traveling along the same lines. I don't get it. Why not a fact based discussion based on the quality of leathers and specific and measurable criteria? Why conjecture? I know you are a cobbler and I am not, but I am not uninformed. I just think that what you folks do by failing to deal in facts is disingenous and less than honorable.
> 
> What I can tell you is the following: on The Shoe Mart's web site, the equivalent Cap Toe Balmoral's are $325 for the AE Park Ave and $394 for the Alden Straight Tip Bal. That, factually speaking, is $69.00 difference. Around where I live you can get your soles replaced for about the same. AE will rebuild the shoes for $95. I think Alden makes a great shoe, but I don't get why people have to tear Allen Edmonds down without facts.


gman--

You use the words "conjecture, disingenuous and, less than honorable". You're so far off base (probably in the parking lot).
1. Conjecture: The *fact* is leather is rated by grades i.e. prime, super prime etc. Whom ever is buying the leather has their own agenda whether it be an independent repair shop or the original maker. That agenda differs i.e. cost, quality etc. Anybody in the industry knows the best soling leather has the least amount of flesh which translates to tighter grain. It costs more. That in no way is "conjecture".
2. Less than honorable: I know Randy, we both share a passion for our industry. Randy is very dedicated to the industry and spends hours upon hours of his own time trying to improve it. He offers to share his knowledge constantly. We are both aware of the many hacks in our industry which gives it a bad reputation. Even so, we work hard to regain the publics confidence in reputable shops (not just our own).
My guess is that there are many regulars in this forum that have benefited from Randy's experience and willingness to share it. I'm certain they appreciate it. Randy is as honorable as they come in our industry.
3. Disingenuous: I have based my comments from my 33 years of experience. I have explained the difference in quality based on *facts*. You can prove it to yourself, here's how: Go to a local repair shop. Ask them to see the different grades of leathers they use for soles. Turn the soles upside down and scratch the bottom (the rough side) with your fingernails. With the inferior leathers, leather particles will loosen and get caught under your nails. The more superior the leather the less this will happen. Try it and let us know unless of course you're being....disingenous.

BTW.....If you research to my posts you will find that I have always been a supporter of AE.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

gman-17 said:


> Perhaps it is my background which causes me to look at such posts with a critical eye.


You know, even a few weeks ago I might have tried to continue the discussion, but I've come to realize that people who think they are gifted with superior analytical skills, because of "my background" or whatever, aren't really open to serious give-and-take. So forget it.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Nick V said:


> gman--
> 
> You use the words "conjecture, disingenuous and, less than honorable". You're so far off base (probably in the parking lot).
> 1. Conjecture: The *fact* is leather is rated by grades i.e. prime, super prime etc. Whom ever is buying the leather has their own agenda whether it be an independent repair shop or the original maker. That agenda differs i.e. cost, quality etc. Anybody in the industry knows the best soling leather has the least amount of flesh which translates to tighter grain. It costs more. That in no way is "conjecture".
> ...


Nick,

I don't want to get into a back and forth with you or anyone else here. What is continually lacking--even in your post above--is not the generalized comment about different grades of leather or proof that cobblers can use different grades. I am sure you are absolutely correct in this statement. What is lacking is the specifity with regard to these claims as they affect AE and Alden. I reiterate the point I made earlier. It was claimed that AE uses inferior Cordovan. This was put forward as knowledge based fact--not opinion. Then the supplier of the product contradicted this completely. I understand that shoe repair, like any craft, has its real craftsmen and its charlatans. My comments re: disenguous and honorable have to do with the arguments people put forward which are not fact based. I would think that someone in your position could put forward and arugment that went something like this: "In my experience . . . " To state something is "better" without defining how it is measured is inappropriate. Think of it ths way: I can ask a veteran police officer how fast he thinks a car is going, and I might actually get the right answer (or one close to that which is correct), but it is probably a whole lot safer to just look at the speedometer.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Kurt N said:


> You know, even a few weeks ago I might have tried to continue the discussion, but I've come to realize that people who think they are gifted with superior analytical skills, because of "my background" or whatever, aren't really open to serious give-and-take. So forget it.


Kurt sorry you feel that way. I don't think my skills are superior, I just think we need to be careful when spreading stuff around. This isn't something I am open minded about.

I have pointed this out at several steps here, the disinformation has been so bad that one of the folks at Horween had to personally refute it. You can review that thread here:

https://https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=936596#post936596

Legitimate difference in shoe construction and leather quality may yield significant differences. I just think people should explain the measuring stick they are using to judge those differences.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

gman-17 said:


> Nick,
> 
> I don't want to get into a back and forth with you or anyone else here. What is continually lacking--even in your post above--is not the generalized comment about different grades of leather or proof that cobblers can use different grades. I am sure you are absolutely correct in this statement. What is lacking is the specifity with regard to these claims as they affect AE and Alden. I reiterate the point I made earlier. It was claimed that AE uses inferior Cordovan. This was put forward as knowledge based fact--not opinion. Then the supplier of the product contradicted this completely. I understand that shoe repair, like any craft, has its real craftsmen and its charlatans. My comments re: disenguous and honorable have to do with the arguments people put forward which are not fact based. I would think that someone in your position could put forward and arugment that went something like this: "In my experience . . . " To state something is "better" without defining how it is measured is inappropriate. Think of it ths way: I can ask a veteran police officer how fast he thinks a car is going, and I might actually get the right answer (or one close to that which is correct), but it is probably a whole lot safer to just look at the speedometer.


I disagree with you. 
First of all every post I have made here since joining AAAC is soley based on my experience. I can tell you by Randy's posts that the same holds true for him.
I refer to Kurt N's comment "are you complaining because it doesn't raise to the level of a scientific paper"? Kurt was right on with his comment. 
I will use your example of a cop vs a speedometer to disprove your point:
To my knowledge there is no scientific way or gauges available to measure the various qualities of soling leather. I invite you to research this and prove me wrong (or--educate me). Therefore, the only "criteria" we can go by is our years of training, knowledge and, experience.
If your "backround causes" you "to look at such posts with a critical eye" that's fine. However, it does not give you the right to accuse people of being dishonest especially when you don't know WHAT or WHO your talking about. That Sir I consider a diservice to this forum. You could have done your fact finding by simply asking the question "what criterior do you use to determine the quality of soling leather"? People in the know would be happy to give you an honest answer. One final point. I have had salesmen come in attempting to pawn-off soling leather that is stamped "super prime" after inspecting it I'll tell them "I'll use this crap to dry my counter tops but I wouldn't put it on a customers shoes". Then I get "your customers won't know the difference, it's marked super prime and you can save a lot of money". I won't buy it because as Randy says "you get what you pay for".

So why don't you put your "critical eye" to work and take me up on reserching by going to a shop (as I explained) and see for yourself the various qualities then finding some sort of gauges or machines that you imagine exist before posting your response. This way instesd of using conjecture you can base your comments/opinions on *FACTS.*


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Nick V said:


> I disagree with you.
> First of all every post I have made here since joining AAAC is soley based on my experience. I can tell you by Randy's posts that the same holds true for him.
> I refer to Kurt N's comment "are you complaining because it doesn't raise to the level of a scientific paper"? Kurt was right on with his comment.
> I will use your example of a cop vs a speedometer to disprove your point:
> ...


Nick,

I stand by my posts and my illustration, and I will use your post to show that if you are honest, and I have no reason to believe you are not, that you also agree with me.

Please read your post:_ "1. Conjecture: The *fact* is leather is rated by grades i.e. prime, super prime etc. Whom ever is buying the leather has their own agenda whether it be an independent repair shop or the original maker. That agenda differs i.e. cost, quality etc. Anybody in the industry knows the best soling leather has the least amount of flesh which translates to tighter grain. It costs more. That in no way is "conjecture"._

So, as you have pointed out, there are objective measures of quality in regard to leather soles. Some metrics one might use are: "thickness," "hardness," "grain tightness or lack of flesh." (BTW, there are simple gauges and tools which have been in existence for many years which can be used to objectively quntify each of these meausrements.) I am sure that all of these characteristics, and others which I may not know, can be reduced to a grading system--such as you have used above. This grading system is also one that members of your industry generally agree and rely upon. I would regard all these as relatively objective criteria--similar to my speedometer. All I have asked, which no one here seems capable of doing, is explain why Alden is considered better than AE. So if we all agree on the criteria, which it seems we do, why is it that no one can use that objective criteria to explain the difference. Why is it that no one can say that one uses x and the other uses y? One attempt to do that was made--the previously mentioned cordovan discussion--and that was discredited. I am not asking for science, just the facts. I understand you have experience but I cannot judge how able you are at your craft. I will take it on your word that you are a master craftsman, but that does not objectively explain the difference between any materials. You have explained the basis for your opinion--and you are entitled to your opinion. However, opinion stated as fact is still just opinion. In addition, it remains my opinion that stating opinion as fact is disingenuous.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

As a longtime advocate and wearer of AE shoes, I have never had issues with splaying, and while it's probably due to rotating the shoes I wear on a daily basis, I have never had to have an AE shoe resoled. I have noticed substantial splaying and wearing in Florsheim Imperials, even when worn intermittently. I do not yet own a pair of Aldens, as AE has always impressed me far too much for less money. 

Instead of splitting hairs or putting on heirs or whatever, can someone reduce the level of testosterone in posts used to tear down the G-Man and answer the question of why Aldens are better than AE?


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

^ But this is bound to be a tricky question, right? Unless someone in the shoe trade has inside connections at both companies, all he will be able to report is how things look and feel, what sort of wear customers seem to be getting out of their shoes, etc. But on the other hand anyone with inside connections at both companies, who knows exactly what grades of material and what methods are used, will necessarily be reticent. He _might_ feel free to say when there is NO difference, but less likely to feel free if there IS a difference.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

gman-17 said:


> Nick,
> 
> I stand by my posts and my illustration, and I will use your post to show that if you are honest, and I have no reason to believe you are not, that you also agree with me.
> 
> ...


As I stated....their are no gauges or tools to measure grain tightness or flesh. I am fully aware of the ones you mentioned which only measure thickness. that has nothing to do with quality which is what you asked to prove using machines and gauges that don't exist.
what I took objection to was you making accusations about somebody that I know are not true.
I never stated that brand A was better than brand B. I am a fan of both companies. But they differ. However, from my experience, it is common for me to hear customers complain about not getting a lot of wear from AE soles. It is rare that I hear this about Aldens. You may call it opinion, I'm just stating the facts from my experience---draw your own conclusion. If you consider that disingenuous I would suggest you do not know the meaning of thr word.


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

Nick V said:


> As I stated....their are no gauges or tools to measure grain tightness or flesh. I am fully aware of the ones you mentioned which only measure thickness. that has nothing to do with quality which is what you asked to prove using machines and gauges that don't exist.
> what I took objection to was you making accusations about somebody that I know are not true.
> I never stated that brand A was better than brand B. I am a fan of both companies. But they differ. However, from my experience, it is common for me to hear customers complain about not getting a lot of wear from AE soles. It is rare that I hear this about Aldens. You may call it opinion, I'm just stating the facts from my experience---draw your own conclusion. *If you consider that disingenuous* I would suggest you do not know the meaning of thr word.


I belive that G-Man's use of that word referred to one poster's comment that Alden cordovan was superior to AE cordovan, when a rep from the supplier of the shell said that there was no difference whatsoever. I am simply attempting to mediate, and not take issue or argue here.


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## Wizard (Feb 29, 2008)

Nick V said:


> As I stated....their are no gauges or tools to measure grain tightness or flesh. I am fully aware of the ones you mentioned which only measure thickness. that has nothing to do with quality which is what you asked to prove using machines and gauges that don't exist...


I have no intention of getting in the middle of this discussion and I only quote your post as a lead-in to my own.

While they may not be used in the leahter industry, devices for measuring the hardness and durability, or durometer, of rubber in the printing industry have existed for a long time. Automobile tires are also wear rated. Now, I realize that the rubber in these products is created by a reproduceable formula while hides are not. I also understand that many of the tests destroy the test sample. Nontheless, there must be a way to combine the results of the non-destructive tests to come up with a psuedo-realiable rating for soles. Just a thought.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

Wizard said:


> I have no intention of getting in the middle of this discussion and I only quote your post as a lead-in to my own.
> 
> While they may not be used in the leahter industry, devices for measuring the hardness and durability, or durometer, of rubber in the printing industry have existed for a long time. Automobile tires are also wear rated. Now, I realize that the rubber in these products is created by a reproduceable formula while hides are not. I also understand that many of the tests destroy the test sample. Nontheless, there must be a way to combine the results of the non-destructive tests to come up with a psuedo-realiable rating for soles. Just a thought.


Could be. Logical thought. But as I stated regarding soling leather, no such thing to my knowledge.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

No such thing, yet Rendenbach claims to make a better sole and they are apparently used as an upgrade by Allen Edmonds.

Anywho... I tried to do durability test on different hat company felts... Borsalino, Hatco (Stetson-Resistol), Akubra, Christy's, Locke, Herbert Johnson, Gelot and more... including the felts of some custom hatters. I got around to writing criteria for the tests. There are fatigue test machines that rub fabrics till they are gone to see how much abrasion they can take and that can be done at a lab... I was going to do that and other tests that I thought were important when judging a dress hat. How much flexing can the felt take before it breaks down. How much does the felt shrink and lose shape after being wet and dried. Unfortunately when I announced the test on the Fedora Lounge Slews of hatters protested (starting with the hatter that said he made the best hats in the world). The hatters were so against the test that the thread had to be deleted. 

Anywho. I know what hat I think wears best and so far it has traveled me around the world.

There are tests out there that can gauge the pressure and abrasion that a shoe sole can handle. Whether these tests are done I don't know. From just hands on experience with the two companies in regards to the soles of the shoes, Alden's soles spread out less under my feet than do Allen Edmonds and regardless of thickness they take longer to wear out. And apparently Rendenbach makes a sole of a higher quality than what Allen Edmonds currently uses on their general shoes.


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## Lawrence Connor (Jan 20, 2009)

Mattdeckard said:


> No such thing, yet Rendenbach claims to make a better sole and they are apparently used as an upgrade by Allen Edmonds.
> 
> Anywho... I tried to do durability test on different hat company felts... Borsalino, Hatco (Stetson-Resistol), Akubra, Christy's, Locke, Herbert Johnson, Gelot and more... including the felts of some custom hatters. I got around to writing criteria for the tests. There are fatigue test machines that rub fabrics till they are gone to see how much abrasion they can take and that can be done at a lab... I was going to do that and other tests that I thought were important when judging a dress hat. How much flexing can the felt take before it breaks down. How much does the felt shrink and lose shape after being wet and dried. Unfortunately when I announced the test on the Fedora Lounge Slews of hatters protested (starting with the hatter that said he made the best hats in the world). The hatters were so against the test that the thread had to be deleted.
> 
> ...


My suspicion is that the level of protest you received is more of an indication that you probably were on the right track.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

Nick V said:


> As I stated....their are no gauges or tools to measure grain tightness or flesh. I am fully aware of the ones you mentioned which only measure thickness. that has nothing to do with quality which is what you asked to prove using machines and gauges that don't exist.
> what I took objection to was you making accusations about somebody that I know are not true.
> I never stated that brand A was better than brand B. I am a fan of both companies. But they differ. However, from my experience, it is common for me to hear customers complain about not getting a lot of wear from AE soles. It is rare that I hear this about Aldens. You may call it opinion, I'm just stating the facts from my experience---draw your own conclusion. If you consider that disingenuous I would suggest you do not know the meaning of thr word.


Nick I didn't see your post until today. I don't want to go back and forth with you. You are not correct in your assumption that there are not gauges by which the characterstics you describe can be measured. There are tools used in labs all over the country to analyze the chemical make up petroleum, paper, food and numerous other products--and can easily be used to determine the quality of shoe leather. Chromotographs and Mass Scpectrometers being two of the more common products by which one can analyze the chemical make up of almost any materials.

I appreciate the kind words you wrote in my other thread, but I have to stick by this point. If one submits opinion as fact, without establishing it as opinion, and attempting to pass it off as fact, it is disingenuous. That may not have been your intent but it is difficult to discern intent on this board--the net effect is the same.

Cheers. I am done with this thread.


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## gman-17 (Jan 29, 2009)

mysharona said:


> I belive that G-Man's use of that word referred to one poster's comment that Alden cordovan was superior to AE cordovan, when a rep from the supplier of the shell said that there was no difference whatsoever. I am simply attempting to mediate, and not take issue or argue here.


Thanks Sharona--my point is simply that people should use the phrase or letters IMHO, in my honest opinion when stating opinon. Why? Because the drivel gets repeated by others as "truth and well established "fact." Such was the case with the previously mentioned Corodvan issue.


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## Lawrence Connor (Jan 20, 2009)

I am going to get a pair of the Alden made for BB shell cordovan plain toe blucher shoes soon in this BB sale.

In learning about these better shoes recently, I also took note of descriptions of sole leather, which is what I have experienced as not being so good in dress shoes with leather soles in the past, being that they don't wear so well, and deteriorate quite a bit with any significant wear, although I never have gotten anywhere near this level of quality shoes before, and that is part of why I want to now.

So I have some things I wonder.

What is "oak leather" (soles), and sometimes called "oak bend leather" (soles)?

Normally, I think of a modifier for leather as being pertinent to it's source, that is to say, it's type of leather, but it seems in this case it may be referring to the color of leather (which a descriptive adjective about leather often does, as well)?

I just found a reference saying that they are oak bark tanned.

Also, in some good dress shoes, such as calfskin, it is usually single oak leather soles, and with shell cordovan shoes it seems usually double oak leather soles.

So, I am curious just to have verified that this is an appreciable aspect of shell cordovan shoes, as I would think almost certainly it is so? 

What would be the best polish that is recommended for shell cordovan?

I read someone say that wax is the right polish for Shell cordovan and not the cream polish that is good for other leather such as calfskin, and to do it infrequently and lightly. And what would be a best recommended polish for shell cordovan? Horsehair brush?

Lastly, I want to have Topy sole protectors added onto my shoes, most likely, as I see they usually are recommended more often than not, to increase the wear and life of leather soled shoes, and a bit better grip, as well.

It is my impression that the Topy sole protectors are better than toe and heel taps, and I also saw mention of doing both, Topy sole protectors and having the taps added, but I think that is not likely done hardly ever, at all, or is that doable?

I am located in Virginia Beach, Virginia, 
so I am wondering if anyone who knows this area 
can recommend a good cobbler/shoe repair shop to have this done at.

I am considering having it done at:

George's Shoe Repair
5332 Fairfield Shopping Ctr
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-4213
(757) 495-9629


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

I appreciate the kind words you wrote in my other thread, but I have to stick by this point. If one submits opinion as fact, without establishing it as opinion, and attempting to pass it off as fact, it is disingenuous. That may not have been your intent but it is difficult to discern intent on this board--the net effect is the same.

Cheers. I am done with this thread.[/quote]

gman-17
As stated, my posts are always based on my 30+ years of experience. As a result, I'll stick to what I have posted until you can *prove* me wrong. In doing so I put more weight in my experience that your opinion. So....We disagree.

I am done with this thread as well.


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