# Allen Edmonds Seconds



## Lieutenant (May 17, 2007)

Allen Edmonds seems to be an affordable and well made shoe (I say that with an asterisk...you know what you have done to me Mr. Edmonds! and I see many members here also remark on their seconds. Not exactly living near a major U.S. city (D.C. is 2.5 hours away) to be able to easily attend tent sales and trunk shows, I have to rely on ebay and tidbits from websites dropped from this distinguished forum in forming intelligent decisions for well thought out purchases; here is the question:

What usual defects can be expected in an Allen Edmonds second? I am looking for a tuxedo shoe in the wide spectrum, and God bless Allen Edmonds they carry them. However, I do not have the desire to drop 300 dollars for a 1st, as my semi-formal and formal events are very rare; I would consider a second if I knew what to expect from them.

That being said, I have purchased two pairs of their shoes recently, including a Wilbert that had to be returned twice to Nordstrom before I got a defect free pair; I love 'em but I am leary of 'em. Any thoughts?


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

I don't find much difference in finding an acceptable pair with AEs in firsts or seconds, but having said that the flaws are generally marginal. My Burton has the most pronounced issue of all of my shoes, the tip of the sole is more squared off on the right than the left and I didn't notice it for awhile or I would have returned it. I am about the only person in the world who notices it. On one pair (a chili bradley) there was a crease or maybe that is the wrong word, on the leather on the side, no issue for me. My biggest issue with AE shoes is the lacing, having the eyelets be even from left to right, so I just tell the salesperson what I want them to look at and 50% of the time I have to return these as well but I do find ones that are acceptable as long as I am patient. I must be patient as I have over 20 pair of AE's with another on the way.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Over the years I have bought more than thirty pair of AEs, many of them seconds, through their factory store network. Any defects on seconds have been very minor and purely cosmetic in nature. As long as you look the shoes over very carefully and simply select the ones you are satisfied with, you will have a very fine pair of shoes, purchased at a remarkably good price.


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## hcivic91 (Aug 29, 2006)

*One common flaw I've found -- Shop handled shoes*

I have been waiting for quite some-time for an appropriate time to convey my experience on this very issue. My post is a bit long but, I think, it contains some good information.

Some months ago I was in search of proper fitting business shoes. Not wanting to make another full price mistake, size-wise, I decided to mail-order from the AE factory store in Port Washington. Because I wanted to get my size just right and I have access to a very cheap shipping source over about a 2 month period I received and returned many many pairs of AEs.

Among the defects I noted were, un-uniform dying/antiquing on chili colored shoes, small scratches on the leather and mis-trimmed welts. Although I was able to detect these faults they were very acceptable, when the discount was taken into account.

Because I was being hyper sensitive about sizing the shoes I was able to detect the most common _defect_, shoes that were shop worn. By this I mean shoes that were tried on in a store and not purchased. The way I came to this concusion is interesting.

One of the shoes that the AE store sent along the way was a Chili colored Delray in 8D. My wife commented that she really liked the shoe and that I should keep them. The problem was they did not feel just right. I had tried the same shoe on at Nordstrom's previously and thought it fit well so I returned that evening. After ensureing a proper fit in the store I made the full retail purchase that evening. When I got the new pair home to compare it became obvious the AE second was a little different.

As I mentioned the second was a little looser and when I looked closer it looked a fraction bigger too. As a result I concluded that the shoes had been tried on in a store and the vamp creased. AE then used some stretching device to stretch the leather a tiny bit to get rid of the crease. I noticed the same thing on several pairs that followed from the factory store as well, another clue this had happened was wear I could detect on the tip of the sole. There had been just enough friction from carpet to rub off the edge dressing.

At any rate I concluded that AE seconds don't work for me as a result, YMMV.


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## jazzy1 (May 2, 2006)

Where is the best place to look for these seconds? The salesman at Harry's Shoes did not seem to know what I was talking about.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Not certain if this is the most current list of AE locations with factory seconds:

Allen Edmonds Desert Hills Premium Outlets Cabazon, CA 
Allen Edmonds Silver Sands Factory Stores Destin, FL 
Allen Edmonds Freeport Outlets Freeport, ME 
Allen Edmonds Burlington Manufacturer's Outlet Center Burlington, NC 
Allen Edmonds Tanger Outlet Center I & II Riverhead, NY 
Allen Edmonds Prime Outlets at Jeffersonville Jeffersonville, OH 
Allen Edmonds Manchester Designer Outlets Manchester Center, VT 

I've always been able to order by phone, but of course it's better if you can be at the store to inspect the shoes and try them on. I haven't ordered from them in a while, but if you are interested, some members here might have salesmen with whom they deal who are knowledgable and helpful.


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## Fred H. (Mar 24, 2007)

*AE Seconds...*

I have just completed a major profile of Allen-Edmonds for Issue No. 3 of Classic Style. In doing my research I had several email exchanges with the AE Marketing Dept. and one of my questions (not reported in the CS Article) had to do with "seconds." The Q&A follows:

What constitutes a "second"?
Our quality standards are so high that the slightest imperfection constitutes a factory second. In many cases, these slight imperfections cannot even be noticed by an untrained eye.

Can you describe a typical "flaw" in a second?
Factory second flaws are subtle imperfections. Examples include a scuff in the leather, an uneven stitch or an imperfection in the leather. 

Seconds are about what percentage of production?
Less than 5 percent of total production.

Channels for seconds?
We own and operate 13 Allen Edmonds Outlet Stores.


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## Francisco D'Anconia (Apr 18, 2007)

smr said:


> Not certain if this is the most current list of AE locations with factory seconds:
> 
> Allen Edmonds Desert Hills Premium Outlets Cabazon, CA
> Allen Edmonds Silver Sands Factory Stores Destin, FL
> ...


There are also the Shoe Bank outlets in Port Washington and Mequon, Wisconsin.

Here is a link to a list of US AE stores, the factoryy store/outlets are denoted by the location:


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## RunningBeagle (Sep 25, 2006)

I went to the Burlington, NC store some time back and tried on several pairs. They all had obvious defects: stitching in places it shouldn't have been, cracks in the leather, etc. I would say chances are you're going to do better being in the store and checking them out yourself.


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## Lieutenant (May 17, 2007)

*Thank you*

Thank you all for the very detailed information...hcivic91 especially...convinced me to buy seconds only if I can get them in store and inspect them prior to purchasing. Thanks again!


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

RunningBeagle said:


> I went to the Burlington, NC store some time back and tried on several pairs. They all had obvious defects: stitching in places it shouldn't have been, cracks in the leather, etc. I would say chances are you're going to do better being in the store and checking them out yourself.


"Obvious defects"?! Your experience is completely different from mine. I have purchased over 30 pairs of A-E seconds for my boy and myself. In the vast majority of these cases, I have been quite at a loss to discern the imperfection. In others, I can, but it has been minuscule, usually a slight irregularity in the stitching of the welt. On only one pair of shoes was the irregularity in the welt really noticeable, and these I bought for $129, so I can't complain too much.


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

Fred H. said:


> I have just completed a major profile of Allen-Edmonds for Issue No. 3 of Classic Style....
> 
> Fred, I'm as much of an AE fan as the next AAer, but as a journalist, I would *never* trust the world of a company spokesman alone. The info you received was pure spin. I''ve seen dozens of seconds, and while many, yes, have very slight imperfections, many are obviously defective. This includes wildly uneven polish, scuffs, and even actual cuts in the leather. I've even had to return two pairs of first because the polish color on the shoes did not even closely match. That said, AE will cheerfully look for a good second for you and return a bad one, but one does have to be careful when shopping. I pretty much only buy seconds I have seen in person.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

I have around half a dozed AE seconds. I can wear a first for an hour and it has more defects that any of my seconds. Ok, I'm clumsy and have really strange feet, but AE seconds are very cost effective. I'll take all I can get on eBay.


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## josepidal (Jul 24, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> I have purchased over 30 pairs of A-E seconds for my boy and myself.


JLibourel, out of curiosity, do you share a shoe size?

I recall when my father took me to purchase a dress shoe for the first time, and it felt like a coming of age ritual.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

josepidal said:


> JLibourel, out of curiosity, do you share a shoe size?
> 
> I recall when my father took me to purchase a dress shoe for the first time, and it felt like a coming of age ritual.


No, I am a 13D. He's a 10D. I can recall buying him some J&Ms before I knew better because his father had loved J&Ms. Of course, back when his father was alive they were excellent shoes. The shoes were a disappointment. The first time he scuffed the corrected grain leather, the shoes were pretty much ruined.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

*Correcting imperfections*

Aside from stitching, many imperfections such as trimming and finish work can be corrected at a local reputable shoe repair shop. Usually for a nominal fee. So....If you add the cost of the second and the cost to correct the imperfection you wind up with a near perfect shoe at a great price.


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## Fred H. (Mar 24, 2007)

*Fullgrain...*

I did conduct interviews with others besides the AE folks. In addition, I mined the online forums (this one included) for lots of opinions. In addition, I own some 8-10 pairs of AE seconds and have my own experience. Nonetheless, it is good to have your perspective. Frankly, the suggestion to concentrate on seconds that you've actually seen is a good one. Alternately, check out the shoes indoors and -- with the exception of seconds on closeout from eBay or the stores -- seconds can be returned to AE.


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## Francisco D'Anconia (Apr 18, 2007)

Fred H. said:


> Alternately, check out the shoes indoors and -- with the exception of seconds on closeout from eBay or the stores -- seconds can be returned to AE.


If the seconds are not from the stores - I'm assuming your reference above is tp the the AE factory outlet stores - or eBay, where would one purchase seconds?


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## RunningBeagle (Sep 25, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> "Obvious defects"?! Your experience is completely different from mine. I have purchased over 30 pairs of A-E seconds for my boy and myself. In the vast majority of these cases, I have been quite at a loss to discern the imperfection. In others, I can, but it has been minuscule, usually a slight irregularity in the stitching of the welt. On only one pair of shoes was the irregularity in the welt really noticeable, and these I bought for $129, so I can't complain too much.


Completely different. I was trying on Park Aves and Byrons 2 each in my size, 12D, black. Perhaps it has something to do with the model, i.e. a defective PA will be majorly defective in the outlet, because the slightly imperfect ones, it being such a popular shoe, will sell in regular stores in spite of said slight imperfections (irregularity in the welt stitching, etc.).

I didn't even know they sold seconds at the outlet until I pointed out the flaws to the saleswoman, and she told me they probably accounted for the shoes' status as seconds.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I have bought two pairs of Park Avenues as seconds from the Cabazon outlet. There was certainly nothing "majorly defective" about either. In fact, I couldn't even find anything "minorly defective" about them for that matter.

It may be, however, that age has dimmed my eyesight and that someone with younger, more acute vision and perhaps a more critical eye for flaws in construction, etc., could spot flaws that would go unnoticed by me as I sink into my dotage.


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

Fred H. said:


> I did conduct interviews with others besides the AE folks. In addition, I mined the online forums (this one included) for lots of opinions. In addition, I own some 8-10 pairs of AE seconds and have my own experience. Nonetheless, it is good to have your perspective. Frankly, the suggestion to concentrate on seconds that you actually seen is a good one. Alternately, check out the shoes indoors and -- with the exception of seconds on closeout from eBay or the stores -- seconds can be returned to AE.


Fred, meant no disrespect, but dodgy ones do get through. Your comment on checking the shoes indoors is a good one--I'd add also to check them outdoors [or as close to the window as possible] in natural light. Perhaps my experience as a 9D is different than others, as that is the size of display models and thus more subject to wear and abuse and unven color wear due to one shoe being left out in the shop and the other in the box...


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## EAP (Jan 19, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> It may be, however, that age has dimmed my eyesight and that someone with younger, more acute vision and perhaps a more critical eye for flaws in construction, etc., could spot flaws that would go unnoticed by me as I sink into my dotage.


This reminds me of the Steven Hunter novel _Time to Hunt_ where the old lawyer Sam Vincent picks up the prosecution exhibit rifle in court with apparent great difficulty, and with palsied hand drops the .308 into the chamber. No one notices until he suddenly slaps the bolt closed and he's pulling the trigger to prove his point. Seconds later he has expertly disassembled the rifle, and is displaying the milled firing pin. His client is acquitted. I also recall that Sam was never seen without a tie.

More on topic, I've had difficulty with AE PA seconds to the point I gave up and ordered some new from the factory at full price. On the other hand, I wouldn't dare challenge JLibourel. Consequently, to reconcile this I'm forced to conclude that JLibourel through some wily pretext simply made off with all the good seconds.


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## Fred H. (Mar 24, 2007)

*My understanding is this...*



Francisco D'Anconia said:


> If the seconds are not from the stores - I'm assuming your reference above is to the the AE factory outlet stores - or eBay, where would one purchase seconds?


AE eBay shoes are NOT returnable. That's because they are ALL closeout-seconds. However, if you call the main AE Shoe Bank in Port Washington (next to the factory), the clerks will sell you seconds in most styles. As long as those show no signs of wear, they'll take them back.


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## tbabes (Feb 28, 2006)

All of the AE seconds that I've seen have had VERY noticeable defects, to include the ones that I've unfortunately purchased (sight unseen) from AE ebay and STP. Never again!


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

tbabes said:


> All of the AE seconds that I've seen have had VERY noticeable defects, to include the ones that I've unfortunately purchased (sight unseen) from AE ebay and STP. Never again!


I guess I must be the luckiest man in the world when it comes to buying A-E seconds--now if I could just have the same luck with the lottery!


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## Barrister & Solicitor (Jan 10, 2007)

I must admit I've been mightily un-lucky as well because the one pair of AE I purchased (admittedly on Ebay) has now proven so defective that I don't know whether they can be fixed : a seam has started to unravel and the shoe repair shop isn't sure they can fix it. Has anyone experienced that? can AE recrafting fix it?


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## sia (Apr 27, 2007)

tbabes said:


> All of the AE seconds that I've seen have had VERY noticeable defects, to include the ones that I've unfortunately purchased (sight unseen) from AE ebay and STP. Never again!


That is too bad. I guess I've had much better luck than you as I've purchased a number of seconds and have never been able to identify why any of them are seconds. What kinds of defects have you found?


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## sia (Apr 27, 2007)

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> I must admit I've been mightily un-lucky as well because the one pair of AE I purchased (admittedly on Ebay) has now proven so defective that I don't know whether they can be fixed : a seam has started to unravel and the shoe repair shop isn't sure they can fix it. Has anyone experienced that? can AE recrafting fix it?


Give them a call (from their website):

Recrafting Customer Service:
To inquire about our signature Recrafting
service or to check the status of your recraft
order. 
Hours: M-F 7:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. (CST)
Call toll-free: 1.877.495.5564
International: 1.262.235.6390
[email protected]


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## tbabes (Feb 28, 2006)

sia said:


> That is too bad. I guess I've had much better luck than you as I've purchased a number of seconds and have never been able to identify why any of them are seconds. What kinds of defects have you found?


Maybe I have been unlucky, but I wonder if you're looking hard enough? The most common fault I've found is that they have been "lop-sided" in that with the bluchers, the leather pieces with the lace-holes don't line up propperly; i.e. one side or the other is off. Annoys the hell out of me, but I guess it's not too noticeable unless you're looking for it. I have four pair, all bought brand new (3 from STP and 1 from AE on eBay) that are hideously afflicted with this plight, and are gathering dust in the closet in a guest bedroom. Goodwill can hopefully find them a propper home. I will never ever ever buy another pair of AE without seeing them in person, be they 1sts or 2nds!


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## HolyBull (May 10, 2007)

*pasting from another post i just made*

Went to the factory store at Desert Hills Outlet today and picked up two pairs of seconds, a black Park Avenue (195.00) and a chestnut Fairfax (129.00) that's also been discontinued.

I can't find anything wrong with the Park Avenue, except for a small shallow divot on the bottom outsole near the heel, next to the "Allen Edmonds" stamp.

The only thing I can find on the Fairfax is a blemish on the inside of the rear quarter that will later pass for wear.

I couldn't be happier with my purchase.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

HolyBull said:


> I can't find anything wrong with the Park Avenue, except for a small shallow divot on the bottom outsole near the heel, next to the "Allen Edmonds" stamp.


If this divot is in the shape of a shoe, it's AE marking for a second quality shoe, and not what made the shoe second in the first place. All AE seconds should be marked as such.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

sia said:


> That is too bad. I guess I've had much better luck than you as I've purchased a number of seconds and have never been able to identify why any of them are seconds. What kinds of defects have you found?


Same here. I bought 2 of mine from the shoe bank.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

tbabes said:


> Maybe I have been unlucky, but I wonder if you're looking hard enough? The most common fault I've found is that they have been "lop-sided" in that with the bluchers, the leather pieces with the lace-holes don't line up propperly; i.e. one side or the other is off. Annoys the hell out of me, but I guess it's not too noticeable unless you're looking for it. I have four pair, all bought brand new (3 from STP and 1 from AE on eBay) that are hideously afflicted with this plight, and are gathering dust in the closet in a guest bedroom. Goodwill can hopefully find them a propper home. I will never ever ever buy another pair of AE without seeing them in person, be they 1sts or 2nds!


This is my one pet peeve with seconds and I have sent a number back for this. I try to explain to the salesperson what I don't want, it is ok if they have the shoe in front of them, but if they have to call another store you just do not know, so be willing to find a store that can put the shoe in front of them, ask them to put the laces in and look at the shoe. Do not fall for the line, "once you have it on your foot it will straighten out", as it hardly ever does. If it looks crooked off your foot it will look that way on it. I must be doing OK, I have found many that are prefect or close enough to not bother me, but it has been hard at times and some shoes I have had to send back..not an issue on bals that can tell.


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## pras (Nov 3, 2013)

This thread hasn't seen any comments in a while. What have people's recent experience with buying from the shoebank/outlet been?


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

I bought a pair of Parkways about 6 months ago. The leather was ever so slightly wrinkled on the instep of one shoe, but otherwise were in great shape. No complaints here.


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## TheoProf (Dec 17, 2012)

Still one of the best values out there IMO.


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## Vincent3 (Dec 15, 2013)

The only defect I noticed on the Black Hills I recently bought was a slight line about 2 inches long in the leather at the top of the shoe. It's not even an indentation, but an imperfection in the finish. I notice it only when light is striking the shoe at a certain angle, and I had to look at it for a minute to be sure I was seeing it accurately. It's inconsequential. I probably wouldn't pay full price if I found the line, but wouldn't think less of AE for the slip up.


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

I ordered a pair of walnut Strand from Port Washington this morning. They have a $50 off the first pair, $100 off the second sale going on.


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