# Correct Pronunciation of Valet (VA-lay, VA-let, va-LAY)?



## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

Ok men, I am going to show my ignorance (which is abundant on a good many subjects) in regards to the correct pronunciation of valet.

Is it 'vaelit or is it 'vaelei? 
VA-lay, VA-let, va-LAY?

Does it depend upon which side of the pond one is standing at the time? Does it really matter which pronunciation is used? 

And if it does not matter, I would be interested to know which one you men use. Thanks in advance.

Wondering what the correct valet pronunciation is.


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## Bob Sacamano (Jul 27, 2013)

Growing up I always heard valet with a silent T, which refers to someone parking my car. Then I started watching Downton Abbey and they pronounce it as valet with a hard T, which refers to a gentlemen's gentlemen. It may have either a difference based on what side of the pond you're on or occupation, as a valet in England is definitely not the same as a valet in the United States.


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

For someone who parks my car it's with a silent "t". The dictionary has either way as an acceptable pronunciation. I've never heard of it used in the way as a gentlemen's gentlemen, though it is the meaning.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Bothˈ/valā/ (silent T) and ˈ/valit/ (hard T) are acceptable, though the latter may be best used in a leaky mansion, in the mouth of someone stepping out through the age-old oak door and into the brisk English morning, holding a rifle and with a hound at his heels. Just my twopence.


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## Bob Sacamano (Jul 27, 2013)

Anthony Charton said:


> Bothˈ/valā/ and ˈ/valit/ are acceptable, though the latter may be best used in a leaky mansion, in the mouth of someone stepping out through the age-old oak door and into the brisk English morning, holding a rifle and with a hound at his heels. Just my twopence.


:confused2:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Claybuster said:


> Ok men, I am going to show my ignorance (which is abundant on a good many subjects) in regards to the correct pronunciation of "valet". Is it 'vaelit or is it 'vaelei? Does it depend upon which side of the pond one is standing at the time? Does it really matter which pronunciation is used? And if it does not matter, I would be interested to know which one you men use. Thanks in advance.


The former is traditionally correct, but the latter has become more common. In the US the former is seldom heard anymore, whereas I believe that both pronunciations still have some currency in the UK. While the former pronunciation is undoubtedly correct and perhaps even favored by some traditionalists, widespread usage of the latter has accorded it full acceptability (especially in the US).


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

My great uncle was a gentleman's gentleman (to the Earl of Pembroke). He pronounced it with a hard t.

What does the correct pronunciation have to do with car-park attendants?


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## Bob Sacamano (Jul 27, 2013)

Langham said:


> My great uncle was a gentleman's gentleman (to the Earl of Pembroke). He pronounced it with a hard t.
> 
> What does the correct pronunciation have to do with car-park attendants?


In the united states, if you go to a nice restaurant you can elect for valet (silent T) parking, in which an attendant parks your car for you. More common in busy cities where parking is hard to come by.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Bob Sacamano said:


> In the united states, if you go to a nice restaurant you can elect for valet (silent T) parking, in which an attendant parks your car for you. More common in busy cities where parking is hard to come by.


Exactly. 
Langham, in the US even the rich don't have valets. The term survives almost exclusively in the context of parking attendants.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Mike Petrik said:


> Exactly.
> Langham, in the US even the rich don't have valets. The term survives almost exclusively in the context of parking attendants.


Also refers to one of these things:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

MaxBuck said:


> Also refers to one of these things:


Very true, but the number of Americans who would know that is comparable to the Libertarian Party vote.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Bob Sacamano said:


> In the united states, if you go to a nice restaurant you can elect for valet (silent T) parking, in which an attendant parks your car for you. More common in busy cities where parking is hard to come by.


Yes, I gathered what the term means in the States - it seems a strange misuse of the word if you ask me. If they want to big themselves up, they might consider calling themselves chauffeurs, but valet will always mean something quite different here.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Mike Petrik said:


> Very true, but the number of Americans who would know that is comparable to the Libertarian Party vote.


Yes, and equally relevant.

I've never quite understood why anyone would buy one of those things (not talking about Libertarians, but rather the wooden furniture item).


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Langham said:


> Yes, I gathered what the term means in the States - it seems a strange misuse of the word if you ask me. If they want to big themselves up, they might consider calling themselves chauffeurs, but valet will always mean something quite different here.


You can speak your variant of the American language, and we'll speak our own original, thank you very much.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> Exactly.
> Langham, in the US even the rich don't have valets. The term survives almost exclusively in the context of parking attendants.


The president of the United States has traditionally had a valet. Manolo Sanchez, for example, was Richard Nixon's. One of the many perks of the office--someone to attend to your every need, 24/7, including selecting your clothing for the day. President Eisenhower' s valet helped him put on his socks every morning.

But your run-of-the-mill rich person, no.


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## Bob Sacamano (Jul 27, 2013)

Langham said:


> Yes, I gathered what the term means in the States - it seems a strange misuse of the word if you ask me. If they want to big themselves up, they might consider calling themselves chauffeurs, but valet will always mean something quite different here.


A chauffeur is a driver, a valet is a parker.

A professional parker. Lol. Rough


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Langham said:


> Yes, I gathered what the term means in the States - it seems a strange misuse of the word if you ask me. If they want to big themselves up, they might consider calling themselves chauffeurs, but valet will always mean something quite different here.


The notion that the youngsters who are employed as parking attendants in the US purloined the word from an historic UK usage in order to "big themselves up" is truly beyond precious.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Langham said:


> Yes, I gathered what the term means in the States - it seems a strange misuse of the word if you ask me. If they want to big themselves up, they might consider calling themselves chauffeurs, but valet will always mean something quite different here.


I am a fervent lover of British English, but you can't bring a language to a new patch of land-especially an island or a whole _continent_ and expect it not to evolve. Actually, at its beginning the word referred to a footman attending to... a horseman. He'd help the knight put on his armour and polish his sword and bring him... his horse. Well, the US specimen bring people their cars. You know what George Bernard Shaw said.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

MaxBuck said:


> Yes, and equally relevant.
> 
> I've never quite understood why anyone would buy one of those things (not talking about Libertarians, but rather the wooden furniture item).


I actually own one! Handed down long ago from my father-in-law. It would be quite useful actually if properly positioned. Alas, mine is on the other side of the foot of the bed and sees use only as rack for unworn ties and the odd old sweater vest.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Anthony Charton said:


> Bothˈ/valā/ (silent T) and ˈ/valit/ (hard T) are acceptable, though the latter may be best used in a leaky mansion, in the mouth of someone stepping out through the age-old oak door and into the brisk English morning, holding a rifle and with a hound at his heels. Just my twopence.


Shouldn't that be a shotgun and a spaniel or labrador?


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

If one must enquire....


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Oldsarge said:


> Shouldn't that be a shotgun and a spaniel or labrador?


I'll give you the shotgun- my knowledge of firearms is close to not very much. As for the canines, the (few) British aristocrats I know speak of 'hounds' (and, sometimes, of 'dogs'). Luckily, there's no pronunciation controversy on these ones.

Hitch- Hah ! Exactly.


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## commandlinegamer (Jun 6, 2013)

It may be a US comedy, John Landis' Trading Places, but I would definitely describe Denholm Elliott's role as a valet, though his primary function is butler, and of course he's a chauffeur also.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> Shouldn't that be a shotgun and a spaniel or labrador?


Rifle and hounds for the boars and deer, my friend, the game imported and reserved for the nobility. Shotgun and retriever are for another quarry all together.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

MaxBuck said:


> Yes, and equally relevant.
> 
> I've never quite understood why anyone would buy one of those things (not talking about Libertarians, but rather the wooden furniture item).


My wife got me one for Christmas, as I've been saying I want one for some time. It's excellent, simply for setting out one's clothes, and makes it easier to get dressed. No futzing with hangers, and pants falling on the floor (perhaps I'm just incompetent, or have terrible hangers, or both, actually I know I have the wrong hangers for pants, but it's a problem I encounter). It's also good for brushing a jacket. It's also simpler for taking one's clothes off, and having somewhere to put them, safely, if you don't tend to put them away in the closet immediately. Mine has also got a handy drawer, where I now keep my cuff links, studs, and watches, and a small mirror, so I can check my tie knot.

Above all else, it makes me feel like some sort of fancy rich person, when I am no such thing.


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the info. I think I will use "valet" with the hard T. I believe it sounds better. As for the wooden valet, I have one and use it everyday.I got mine at an antiques store.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Some googling shows quite a nice variety of clothes valets. Makes me wish I could put mine in a more serviceable location. I might consider upgrading, if I could.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

Mine's also got space to set your shoes out - I use it to keep my patent slip ons somewhere that I won't scratch them up between Black Tie outings. I'm a complete slob, generally, so it's quite helpful to me.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

MaxBuck said:


> You can speak your variant of the American language, and we'll speak our own original, thank you very much.


Oh Max, what a lovely sentiment. 
Remove England from this forum and what's left? Double monks and button down collars? :devil:


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

Shaver said:


> Oh Max, what a lovely sentiment.
> Remove England from this forum and what's left? Double monks and button down collars? :devil:


It's times like this that I want a thumb's up option on this site.


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## IvanD (Jan 5, 2012)

Well said Shaver.
Us Brits may be in a minority here but we have to make our voices heard


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

It's pronounced val-ay with an "'A" sound.


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## Sgpearl (Dec 11, 2012)

Howard said:


> It's pronounced val-ay with an "'A" sound.


Taking us back to the original question, this answer is correct. It's a French word. If you want to pronounce it correctly, pronounce it in French. If not, then pronounce it like a Brit. They are notorious for mangling French words - purposely and with delight.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Who's gonna go up against the OED?

https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/221163?rskey=DZj3AH&result=1#eid


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Howard said:


> It's pronounced val-ay with an "'A" sound.


My dictionary (a genuine "Webster Unabriged," BTW!) says Howard's pronunciation is absolutely correct. As for me, I chose to pronounce it 'by the book!' LOL.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm with Howard. Or, do we drink clar-ette after driving in our Tchevro-lette to see the Mon-ette exposition? Or was it borducks that we were drinking?


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Sgpearl said:


> ...If you want to pronounce it correctly, pronounce it in French. If not, then pronounce it like a Brit. They are notorious for mangling French words - purposely and with delight.


But doesn't everyone do this? I find I quite like the notion of being taught how to speak correct French by an American.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> I'm with Howard. Or, do we drink clar-ette after driving in our Tchevro-lette to see the Mon-ette exposition? Or was it borducks that we were drinking?


Don't say you pronounce it claray?

Also, have you ever been to Paris? Or was it Paree? Naples or Napoli? etc.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Langham said:


> Don't say you pronounce it claray?
> 
> Also, have you ever been to Paris? Or was it Paree? Naples or Napoli? etc.


Good point. Paris is Paris, even for a francophone/phile like myself.

I grew up in a part of Pennsylvania, by the way, that was settle by the Welsh. God only knows how any of our local town and street names should be pronounced. Llewellyn. Bala Cynwood. etc.

Honest, I don't know if I've ever uttered the word claret. I only know it from Patrick O'Brian. Aubrey and Maturin drink a lot of the stuff.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Honest, I don't know if I've ever uttered the word claret. I only know it from Patrick O'Brian. Aubrey and Maturin drink a lot of the stuff.


I don't know how you pronounce it in the States but here (like valet...) claret has a hard t. It is in fact a type of Bordeaux wine, but I believe the word (claret) is one that has been made English, much as valet is now an English word. The French form is clairet. In some circles, claret also refers to blood shed amidst scenes of great violence ("claret all over the shop").


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Claret being a blend, we don't use the term much out here in the wine country. We are far more likely to just define the wine by its varietal. So 'claret' being an almost exclusively British term, it should be pronounced the way they do . . . with an audible 't'. And since my knowledge of British culture is mostly from P G Wodehouse (pronounced 'wood house') I thought the proper term was 'gentleman's gentleman'. We live and learn . . . :devil:


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> I'm with Howard. Or, do we drink clar-ette after driving in our Tchevro-lette to see the Mon-ette exposition? Or was it borducks that we were drinking?


The painter's name is pronounced with a silent t in French, actually, though a hard t sounds better than 'Monay' to me.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

In Canada, we just pronounce words, from both languages, correctly, with terrible accents.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

tocqueville said:


> I grew up in a part of Pennsylvania, by the way, that was settle by the Welsh. God only knows how any of our local town and street names should be pronounced. Llewellyn. Bala Cynwood. etc.


The Welsh language (which J.R.R.Tolkien rightly called "the senior British language") is almost entirely phonetic - one letter, one sound. However, some letters are digraphs (ll, for example). The word Cynwood is mixed Welsh and English.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

StylePurgatory said:


> In Canada, we just pronounce words, from both languages, correctly, with terrible accents.


French is one of my native languages, and I very much like Québecois, which I heard around when I stayed in Vancouver. In it we find turns of phrases French French lost long ago; also I admire the linguistic refusal to bend a knee and assimilate Anglo-American terms into their idiom (e-mail, parking, etc); something that the French, the German, and many other European speakers are happy to do.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

StylePurgatory said:


> In Canada, we just pronounce words, from both languages, correctly, with terrible accents.


If I recall, that was a particular forte (for-tay) of your former PM, Chrétien (Kray-tien), who was accused of speaking neither language well.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

williamson said:


> The Welsh language (which J.R.R.Tolkien rightly called "the senior British language" is almost entirely phonetic - one letter, one sound. However, some letters are digraphs (ll, for example). The word Cynwood is mixed Welsh and English.


I've been told that the ll involves some weird tongue thing right behind the teeth. Sort of a "th" sound, but only just. And Cynwood should be "koon-wood," although we Pennsylvanians call it kin-wood.

That region of Penna was briefly a Welsh-speaking autonomous zone, part of a deal Penn made with the Welsh Society of Friends. The local Church from that period, "St. David's," has on display some welsh prayer books, which, besides the place names and a large number of Quaker meeting houses, is all that remains. Thus I grew up in a town once known as Llewellyn, in St. David's Parish, Radnor Township.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

Anthony Charton said:


> French is one of my native languages, and I very much like Québecois, which I heard around when I stayed in Vancouver. In it we find turns of phrases French French lost long ago; also I admire the linguistic refusal to bend a knee and assimilate Anglo-American terms into their idiom (e-mail, parking, etc); something that the French, the German, and many other European speakers are happy to do.


That is actually a, very successfully, government imposed policy that began in the 1970's. It is actually illegal to use English words in French printed materials, and signage. On all bilingual signs, English may never be larger than the French. This includes private businesses. Montreal is actually incredibly cosmopolitan, and has its own, unique, and vibrant culture, grown from the incredible diversity of languages and cultures in the city, including French. That is what the PQ openly intend to destroy, in order to "preserve their culture." And, if you're unaware of this new, brilliant display of bigotry, and xenophobia, happy reading:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Charter_of_Values


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

tocqueville said:


> If I recall, that was a particular forte (for-tay) of your former PM, Chrétien (Kray-tien), who was accused of speaking neither language well.


When he speaks at a regular speed and volume, it suddenly all becomes discernable. Buy yeah, he had a special way of speaking. And then there was that time he choked a protester, which was pretty bad ass.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

tocqueville said:


> If I recall, that was a particular forte (for-tay) of your former PM, Chrétien (Kray-tien), who was accused of speaking neither language well.


Exceptionally clever, given that forte is not pronounced for-tay.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/1545/is-forte-pronounced-fort-or-for-tay


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Mike Petrik said:


> Exceptionally clever, given that forte is not pronounced for-tay.
> 
> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/1545/is-forte-pronounced-fort-or-for-tay


Beat me to it, you speedy devil.

By the way, what's up with the Brits simply choosing to ignore syllables? "Worcestershire" should surely be more than two syllables. And how do you get the pronunciation "snjn" from "Saint John?"


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Mike Petrik said:


> Exceptionally clever, given that forte is not pronounced for-tay.
> 
> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/1545/is-forte-pronounced-fort-or-for-tay


Your source casts some light on the differing US and British pronunciation of valet:

https://english.stackexchange.com/q...-foreign-words-in-american-vs-british-english


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

MaxBuck said:


> Beat me to it, you speedy devil.
> 
> By the way, what's up with the Brits simply choosing to ignore syllables? "Worcestershire" should surely be more than two syllables. And how do you get the pronunciation "snjn" from "Saint John?"


Worcestershire is three syllables - Woo-ster-sher

But as you know, there is an endless array of words and names in the English language that are pronounced differently to how they are written:frown:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Langham said:


> Your source casts some light on the differing US and British pronunciation of valet:
> 
> https://english.stackexchange.com/q...-foreign-words-in-american-vs-british-english


Very interesting, Langham. Thanks for calling my attention to it.


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

You know...it is funny how a thread takes on a life of its own after a while, isn't it? I am learning a lot:teacha:


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Langham said:


> Worcestershire is three syllables - Woo-ster-sher


Thanks. That's how I've always said it (that's how my parents always said, so there's the reason) but I had a college roommate who always said "worse-ter-shire" as four syllables and it drove me nuts. Some how, he managed to say the word more than I ever thought possible, too.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

Langham said:


> Worcestershire is three syllables - Woo-ster-sher
> 
> But as you know, there is an endless array of words and names in the English language that are pronounced differently to how they are written:frown:


I say woost-shire, as did my grandfather, who was from London. Perhaps there us enough stall on the t that it becomes three syllables.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

StylePurgatory said:


> I say woost-shire, as did my grandfather, who was from London. Perhaps there us enough stall on the t that it becomes three syllables.


That may be how some people pronounce it. I've hardly ever been there so I'm not sure how the locals say it, but I tend to follow the BBC cricket commentary in these matters.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

Langham said:


> That may be how some people pronounce it. I've hardly ever been there so I'm not sure how the locals say it, but I tend to follow the BBC cricket commentary in these matters.


I've no idea how correct/posh/snobbish/wrong/low brow/authentic/colonial my pronunciation may be. After all, by the time I met my grandpa, he had been in Canada for over 30 years, and North America for at least 40.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I too use the British pronunciation to describe a "gentleman's gentleman," usually when I'm telling my stepson, "I'm not your damn valet!" I use the American pronunciation for the chaps in the red vests who park cars at restaurants.


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

Langham said:


> Worcestershire is three syllables - Woo-ster-sher
> 
> But as you know, there is an endless array of words and names in the English language that are pronounced differently to how they are written:frown:


I'm from the Boston area and that's how I've only heard it pronounced. We also have towns of Worcester and Gloucester that most not from the New England area pronounce incorrectly


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Perhaps the time is ripe for me to state my overweening disdain for anyone who refers to the common patio furniture item as a "chaise lounge."

It's a long chair, maroons, get it right!


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I was gently corrected on that matter, myself, a while back. My parents always called it that and it wasn't until it was brought to my attention that the correct spelling is 'chaise longue' (which means, naturally, long chair) that I recognized my mistake. Funny how old language bad habits stick with us . . .


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Oldsarge said:


> *I was gently corrected* on that matter, myself, a while back.


Were I a nice person, I'd have done so myself. As it is, I obviously chose to behave like a pr*ck, as is my wont.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

Might as well expand into English words of Latin derivation.

" At my school reunion, I met an *Alumnus* and his friend who attended school with me. These two *Alumni *went out for a drink with me."


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

momsdoc said:


> Might as well expand into English words of Latin derivation.
> 
> " At my school reunion, I met an *Alumnus* and his friend who attended school with me. These two *Alumni *went out for a drink with me."


I'd rather go drinking with the alumnae, but each to his own.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

How do you all pronounce table? It's a French word as well!


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## StylinLa (Feb 15, 2009)

Well maybe this is the thread wherein I can ask why Tyrwhitt is pronounced "turret?"
I've called the company and that's how they say it.


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## StylinLa (Feb 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Oh Max, what a lovely sentiment.
> Remove England from this forum and what's left? Double monks and button down collars? :devil:


Loved this one, Shaver...


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Given the age of the alumnae from my graduating class, the difference is slight.


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## Ματθαῖος (Jun 17, 2011)

In North by Northwest, Cary Grant asks for a hotel valet to sponge his suit.

It's worth watching the movie for a variety of reasons; one reason is to discover how he pronounces the word.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Ματθαῖος said:


> In North by Northwest, Cary Grant asks for a hotel valet to sponge his suit.
> 
> It's worth watching the movie for a variety of reasons; one reason is to discover how he pronounces the word.


And who knows what the metallic object is, behind the telephone? It looks like a grouping of hip flasks.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Langham said:


> And who knows what the metallic object is, behind the telephone? It looks like a grouping of hip flasks.


I believe it's a lamp.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Sgpearl said:


> Taking us back to the original question, this answer is correct. It's a French word. If you want to pronounce it correctly, pronounce it in French. If not, then pronounce it like a Brit. They are notorious for mangling French words - purposely and with delight.


How do you pronounce it like a Brit?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

tocqueville said:


> I'm with Howard. Or, do we drink clar-ette after driving in our Tchevro-lette to see the Mon-ette exposition? Or was it borducks that we were drinking?


Bordeux.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Anthony Charton said:


> The painter's name is pronounced with a silent t in French, actually, though a hard t sounds better than 'Monay' to me.


I thought it was "money"?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Matt S said:


> How do you all pronounce table? It's a French word as well!


tab-lay?


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## Barrister & Solicitor (Jan 10, 2007)

Very interesting thread.

The pronounciation of words such as valet, Monet and Charvet, while we're at it, in French is with the sound "è". As someone else said, the "t" is always silent. The closest example I can think of in English is how the vowel is pronounced in the verb "let".

Howard is thus very close when he wrote va-lay.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Very interesting thread.
> 
> The pronounciation of words such as valet, Monet and Charvet, while we're at it, in French is with the sound "è". As someone else said, the "t" is always silent. The closest example I can think of in English is how the vowel is pronounced in the verb "let".
> 
> Howard is thus very close when he wrote va-lay.


Yet there are instances (in French) where the terminal t is not silent. The Moet in Moet et Chandon for instance, although it is often incorrectly pronounced, should have a hard t, as it is followed by a vowel. There are many other such instances.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Langham said:


> Yet there are instances (in French) where the terminal t is not silent. The Moet in Moet et Chandon for instance, although it is often incorrectly pronounced, should have a hard t, as it is followed by a vowel. There are many other such instances.


While you are very right in practice, the 't' isn't hard _because_ it is followed by a vowel, but because the name bears an umlaut (Moët, not Moet. If memory serves, this dates back to the Middle Ages, when it would have been spelled Moest, with all letters pronounced). Words ending in -et and followed by a vowel still systematically have a silent t.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Anthony Charton said:


> While you are very right in practice, the 't' isn't hard _because_ it is followed by a vowel, but because the name bears an umlaut (Moët, not Moet. If memory serves, this dates back to the Middle Ages, when it would have been spelled Moest, with all letters pronounced). Words ending in -et and followed by a vowel still systematically have a silent t.


If that is correct, then I must apologise for issuing incorrect advice. Yet I am sure I have frequently come across the 'hard t' pronunciation when in France, although this may perhaps have been the regional dialect. (I was aware of the umlaut, and what it signifies - merely incapable of reproducing it from my keyboard.)


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Langham said:


> ... I have frequently come across the 'hard t' pronunciation when in France, although this may perhaps have been the regional dialect.


Regional dialects in many European nations can render discussions between residents of different regions difficult. I'm not a German speaker, but recall once hearing a conversation between a Stuttgarter and Berliner in which the two clearly struggled to understand one another because of differing pronunciations and idioms. My wife (who speaks German) laughed and said maybe they should have tried English to save time. She also noted that in northern Italy the people obviously spoke Italian (she also speaks that language), but with largely Germanic pronunciation patterns.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

What about pronouncing the word "Mignon" as in the word filet Mignon? How come the g sound sounds like an n? And then the rest is "yawn"?


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Howard said:


> What about pronouncing the word "Mignon" as in the word filet Mignon? How come the g sound sounds like an n? And then the rest is "yawn"?


Such conundrums abound, Howard. But I expect the French find English a trifle confusing too; for instance, why is the ending -ough pronounced so differently in:

cough
through
rough
plough
dough
borough
hiccough


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Langham said:


> Such conundrums abound, Howard. But I expect the French find English a trifle confusing too; for instance, why is the ending -ough pronounced so differently in:
> 
> cough
> through
> ...


I doughn't knough.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Langham said:


> Such conundrums abound, Howard. But I expect the French find English a trifle confusing too; for instance, why is the ending -ough pronounced so differently in:
> 
> cough
> through
> ...


As LSU football fans say down on the bayou, "Geaux Tigers!"


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## kravi (Feb 26, 2013)

Anthony Charton said:


> While you are very right in practice, the 't' isn't hard _because_ it is followed by a vowel, but because the name bears an umlaut (Moët, not Moet. If memory serves, this dates back to the Middle Ages, when it would have been spelled Moest, with all letters pronounced). Words ending in -et and followed by a vowel still systematically have a silent t.


Actually, the rule in French is that if the next word starts with a vowel, the t is pronounced. So "Moet et Chandon" you pronounce the t in Moet (because the next word, "et", starts wit ha vowel", but not in "et" (because the next word, "Chandon", does not start with a vowel).

As for the English, they deliberately mispronounce French and take a perverse pleasure in it 

--Me


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## kravi (Feb 26, 2013)

Howard said:


> What about pronouncing the word "Mignon" as in the word filet Mignon? How come the g sound sounds like an n? And then the rest is "yawn"?


gn in french is that same sound. Regardless of "filet mignon", champagne, etc, it is all the same "nye" sound.

--Me

EDIT: spelled champagne properly this time, but the case in point is the same


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

There is no consistent rule for pronunciation in English other than this: find someone who speaks the RP (as I do). Ask them* how to pronounce the word. 

I pronounce "valet" with a hard "t" except when referring to "valet parking", as it's an American phrase and so the American pronunciation is fine. (The argument that one uses a silent "t" so that one doesn't confuse "valet" with "varlet" seems plausible, but as the two are often one, the effect of the confusion is minor.)

*The plural "them" has been used as a gender-neutral singular for centuries, in case you twitched when you read it, and hence doubted my authoriteh on matters English.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

StephenRG said:


> There is no consistent rule for pronunciation in English other than this: find someone who speaks the RP (as I do). Ask them* how to pronounce the word.
> ...
> *The plural "them" has been used as a gender-neutral singular for centuries, in case you twitched when you read it, and hence doubted my authoriteh on matters English.


Wait- pardon ? Language is a frivolous and fast-changing thing, especially its _pronunciation_, especially when spoken by so many mouths across the globe. The fact that speakers of American English now pronounce 'valet' with a silent t reflects both the evolution of the word and, concurrently, the psyche of its speakers. It seems to me fallacious and very, very righteous to assume Received Pronunciation speakers just _know better_. I have countless examples of RPs mispronouncing words because they didn't understand them. (As for your addendum, no one doubts your authority- in fact, I'm sure 99% of people are aware of this particular use of 'them'. It doesn't take a public school education to get gender-neutral pronouns.) That said, I'd be interested to hear the opposite side of the argument.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Anthony Charton said:


> Wait- pardon ?


I was not being entirely serious...


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

^ In this case my apologies. I've just spent too much time with pedantic and uninformed _yahs_ to have a real measure of reserve on the matter.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I pronouce it Man Friday!!


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Anthony Charton said:


> ^ In this case my apologies. I've just spent too much time with pedantic and uninformed _yahs_ to have a real measure of reserve on the matter.


I appreciate, I understand, I sympathise and I agree.


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## Grayson (Feb 29, 2008)

Check it at the 00:39 point.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

The misconceptions about how various French words are pronounced is definitely amusing me.


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## egerland (Aug 18, 2008)

I think if you have one, it is pronounced with a hard "T"


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

egerland said:


> I think if you have one, it is pronounced with a hard "T"


I think if you pay him the going wage, you can pronounce it "hey, you" and he'll come a-runnin'.


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## Barrister & Solicitor (Jan 10, 2007)

StylePurgatory said:


> The misconceptions about how various French words are pronounced is definitely amusing me.


Moi également, mon cher ami.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

kravi said:


> As for the English, they deliberately mispronounce French and take a perverse pleasure in it.


Very true of many of them - also with respect to other languages.


StephenRG said:


> There is no consistent rule for pronunciation in English other than this: find someone who speaks the RP (as I do). Ask them how to pronounce the word.





Anthony Charton said:


> It seems to me fallacious and very, very righteous to assume Received Pronunciation speakers just _know better_. I have countless examples of RPs mispronouncing words because they didn't understand them.


RP is only ONE version of correct English pronunciation, and is basically a regional one (that of the Home Counties - south-eastern England). Other parts of England, to say nothing of Wales, Scotland and Ireland, have different ways of pronouncing the language (admittedly rather small variants) but still speak correct English.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Langham said:


> Such conundrums abound, Howard. But I expect the French find English a trifle confusing too; for instance, why is the ending -ough pronounced so differently in:
> 
> cough
> through
> ...


I've always sounded words with "ough" in it like a f sound and some words have an "ow" in it or an "o" sound.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

MaxBuck said:


> As LSU football fans say down on the bayou, "Geaux Tigers!"


Isn't it pronounced "bi-you"?


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## bobelmore (Jan 26, 2014)

It may be a British/American thing. I recall in the film "North by Northwest" Cary Grant calls the valet (with hard 't') to ask him to press his suit.


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

Back to the point: it's val-it with the accent on the first syllable; an English pronunciation, not French.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

I think it's clear that if the guy is dressing you he's a "vall-it" and if he's parking your car he's a "vall-ay." At least that's the way it is in the USA; Brits can say whatever they please.

Is more discussion of this really necessary?

(I think all this snow followed by freezing rain is starting to wear on my psyche.)


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

MaxBuck said:


> ...
> Is more discussion of this really necessary?


It had crossed my mind that few people nowadays - perhaps very few - actually have a valet, so how the word should be pronounced is of largely academic interest. Of course, I have to assume that the OP either has or is considering recruiting one.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Interestingly, before class yesterday, two students, one from Ivory Coast (French speaker) the other a Russian speaker, we're debating when/if it was appropriate to use native vs. local pronunciations. Their opinion - it is always va-lay and Brits are weird.


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

Langham said:


> It had crossed my mind that few people nowadays - perhaps very few - actually have a valet, so how the word should be pronounced is of largely academic interest. Of course, I have to assume that the OP either has or is considering recruiting one.


The only valet I have now or will ever have is of the wooden kind:wink2:


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## bobelmore (Jan 26, 2014)

Claybuster said:


> The only valet I have now or will ever have is of the wooden kind:wink2:


And is that a vall'et or a vall-ay'?


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## Barrister & Solicitor (Jan 10, 2007)

Claybuster said:


> The only valet I have now or will ever have is of the wooden kind:wink2:


Oh you mean you own one of those thingamajigs?

Débat clos.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Since in many cases American English is more archaic than British English, we can claim seniority in our pronunciation . . . if we're silly enough to want to do so, that is.


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Oh you mean you own one of those thingamajigs?
> 
> Débat clos.


Oh, I thought it was a whatchamacallit:wink2:


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## interestedinclothing (Feb 8, 2007)

Pronounce it with a silent "t" if there's no chance any of your ancestors had one.


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## Guest (May 7, 2020)

Bob Sacamano said:


> In the united states, if you go to a nice restaurant you can elect for valet (silent T) parking, in which an attendant parks your car for you. More common in busy cities where parking is hard to come by.


A hard T is the correct pronunciation. A soft T is the favoured in non English-speaking countries, such as the U.S.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

"Pronunciation of Valet?" Va - la (visualize a line over the a). Nuff said!


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## EclecticSr. (Sep 21, 2014)

Guest-886831 said:


> A hard T is the correct pronunciation. A soft T is the favoured in non English-speaking countries, such as the U.S.


Another welcomed wise ass. Ya'all come back wontcha.


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## Mr. B. Scott Robinson (Jan 16, 2017)

I pronounce it similarly to how I pronounce “toilet”.

I have never asked for directions to the “toy-lay”, preferring the term “loo” instead.



Cheers,

BSR


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Thanks to this thread I can now pronounce _Chevrolet_ properly.

The inability to do that is why I drive a Ford. Which incidentally because I speak Maine, and Maine doesn't recognize R's except at the beginning of a word, I actually drive a Fawhd.


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## EclecticSr. (Sep 21, 2014)

I used to ask where the men's room is .


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Peak and Pine said:


> Thanks to this thread I can now pronounce _Chevrolet_ properly.
> 
> The inability to do that is why I drive a Ford. Which incidentally because I speak Maine, and Maine doesn't recognize R's except at the beginning of a word, I actually drive a Fawhd.


The technical term is "non-rhotic". RP, which is what I speak, is also non-rhotic.


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## ItalianStyle (Mar 13, 2017)

Aha! Then I am a non-rhotic (or neu-rhotic?)...
As a non-native english speaker I'm not used to the semi-rolling 'r' sound (I call it semi-rolling because it is not as pronounced as in some German dialects).

Maybe I should move to Maine and blend in...


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

StephenRG said:


> The technical term is "non-rhotic". RP, which is what I speak, is also non-rhotic.


My gawd you're right. Thank ye, Google. But I wish you hadn't told me. I hate technical type hi-falootin' terms, often for their convolution. Like here with button_ stance. _I tossed that term as soon as I learned it. _Position_ works for me.


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