# Is wearing a kiton suit considered elitist



## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

The word elitist or elitism is referred to many times on this forum. Yet Ask Andy is generally
a discussion about men's clothing that very few men can afford , Example : Brioni , Borrelli ,
Zenga , Lattanzi , John Lobb , Oxxford , Edward Green etc.
Certainly a Kiton suit is beyond the financial means of most men.

Than are those men's clothing listed above for elites ? There is also discussions here about high end ink pins , and very expensive watches.
Is there any different if the discussion was about Porsches , Ferrrari , or Aston Martin ?

Elite is defined as ' The best or most skilled members of a social group " Elitism , " A sense of being part of a superior or privileged group.
The question does wearing an expensive , pair of shoes , suit or shirt determines that one is elitist. Does discussing or comparing those items with less expensive items means one is elitist ?

Several questions , are there answers ?


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## figliachepiange (Jun 13, 2008)

I think you have answered your own question, in one respect at least. By the very nature of being expensive they exclude the majority from owning them, and so yes they are elitist, in that they seek to attract the wealthier among us. However, if you mean that by wearing them you are attempting to express your superiority over others, then no. Wearing an expensive layer of wool about you hardly makes you any better than the next man.


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

I think when people use the term "elitist" in a pejorative sense they are referring to an attitude. That is, you aren't an elitist for wearing a Kiton suit, but you are an elitist if you think doing so makes you a "better" person than someone who does not.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

It's not necessarily a question of cost - sometimes it's a matter of priorities or preferences.

Someone may regularly have a Starbucks in the morning and a pint of beer in the evening before going home, and someone else of equal economic status may forego both so that he can buy a $1500+ suit for his own pleasure.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Its certainly very relative. As stated if someone admires fine clothing and buys a Kiton and doesn't think that makes him better then anyone else then it is not elitist at all. Buying the Kiton because you feel it puts you into a higher class of society is elitist, and ignorant for that matter.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

Why do you mention cars in every post you make? I don't think there is anything wrong with Kiton suits. I wouldn't know a Kiton suit if someone wearing one ran over my Schwinn in his Porsche. But there may be a problem with your obsession. Hobbies are good and I bet a lot of men like cars, but it appears you have some kind of obsessions. And that's not good for anything. Not even women or porn. Perhaps it comes down to whether you wear expensive clothes for yourself or for others. For others as in to put yourself in a position to judge them. If the latter you are a pathetic person. Might be insecure.

Also, I don't think it's wrong or elitist to wear expensive stuff in order to impress. It may not always work out as intended, as has been mentioned on this forum, but the intention to impress can be well meant no?


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

SkySov said:


> Why do you mention cars in every post you make? I don't think there is anything wrong with Kiton suits. I wouldn't know a Kiton suit if someone wearing one ran over my Schwinn in his Porsche. But there may be a problem with your obsession. Hobbies are good and I bet a lot of men like cars, but it appears you have some kind of obsessions. And that's not good for anything. Not even women or porn. Perhaps it comes down to whether you wear expensive clothes for yourself or for others. For others as in to put yourself in a position to judge them. If the latter you are a pathetic person. Might be insecure.
> 
> Also, I don't think it's wrong or elitist to wear expensive stuff in order to impress. It may not always work out as intended, as has been mentioned on this forum, but the intention to impress can be well meant no?


Are you capable of discussing a subject ? the subject is elitism as it applies to clothing , cars , 
watches even ink pens. Try and offer a counterpoint and stay way from if you can
personal attacks.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> Elite is defined as ' The best or most skilled members of a social group " Elitism , " A sense of being part of a superior or privileged group.


How does wearing expensive clothes make you the most skilled member of a social group? I could go win Powerball and have my suits made bespoke from a virgin Princess' public hairs. Kiton could kiss my inarticulate posterior. And I wouldn't be any more skilled than a toll both operator.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> Are you capable of discussing a subject ? the subject is elitism as it applies to clothing , cars ,
> watches even ink pens. Try and offer a counterpoint and stay way from if you can
> personal attacks.


lol. what? This is a car forum now?


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

SkySov said:


> How does wearing expensive clothes make you the most skilled member of a social group? I could go win Powerball and have my suits made bespoke from a virgin Princess' public hairs. Kiton could kiss my inarticulate posterior. And I wouldn't be any more skilled than a toll both operator.


That certainly is QUITE the analogy!


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

SkySov said:


> How does wearing expensive clothes make you the most skilled member of a social group? I could go win Powerball and have my suits made bespoke from a virgin Princess' public hairs. Kiton could kiss my inarticulate posterior. And I wouldn't be any more skilled than a toll both operator.


LOL. Wow


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> Are you capable of discussing a subject ? the subject is elitism as it applies to clothing , cars ,
> watches even ink pens. Try and offer a counterpoint and stay way from if you can
> personal attacks.


Oh btw, I believe i said



> Perhaps it comes down to whether you wear expensive clothes for yourself or for others. For others as in to put yourself in a position to judge them. *If the latter *you are a pathetic person. Might be insecure.


So, it would only have been a personal attack if you do indeed strive to judge people. If that's how you get your jollies I feel sorry for you. But I like this subject, I assumed like the first poster that when elitist is used negative it's because of an attitude and positive it's because someone has some kind of expertise or special talent.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Terpoxon said:


> I think when people use the term "elitist" in a pejorative sense they are referring to an attitude. That is, you aren't an elitist for wearing a Kiton suit, but you are an elitist if you think doing so makes you a "better" person than someone who does not.


It appears the word " better ' is used instead of elitist. Better is defined as " Greater in excellence or higher in quality " , " One's superiors , especially in social standing , competence , or intelligence ". There are other definitions , but no mention of elitism.

Using the definition better than one would generally buy an expensive suit or any expensive item 
to prove one's worth. We do live in a consumer driven economy don't we ?
Are we not judged by in large by our wealth in most cases ?

The president of a bank does not generally associate with the teller and generally drives a 
more expensive car , lives in a more expensive house and wears more expensive clothing.
If not what is the point of being the president of a bank ?


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## figliachepiange (Jun 13, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> It appears the word " better ' is used instead of elitist. Better is defined as " Greater in excellence or higher in quality " , " One's superiors , especially in social standing , competence , or intelligence ". There are other definitions , but no mention of elitism.
> 
> Using the definition better than one would generally buy an expensive suit or any expensive item
> to prove one's worth. We do live in a consumer driven economy don't we ?
> ...


So he can use his means to enjoy his life, and pursue his passions, rather than sit around and worry about how much other peoples things retail for?
Patrick Bateman comes to mind.


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> The president of a bank does not generally associate with the teller and generally drives a
> more expensive car , lives in a more expensive house and wears more expensive clothing.
> If not what is the point of being the president of a bank ?


Hmm...I believe the term commonly used to describe that guy would be a "Douche" ...all the CEOs, Presidents of companies, leaders, etc that I know DO say hi and make an effort to be kind and get to know the people a little lower on the totem pole (a smart executive KNOWS that without his "little people" he has nothing and is nothing - that is what makes them well liked and generally successful people)...

Oh well...Looks like we have another example of the old "Porsche owner" stereotype...


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

Skysov, How long have you been obsessed with the idea of owning a suit made from virgin pubic hair?

Silverporsche, would you judge Gandhi or Mother Theresa by their clothing? To do so would be to miss the many, many possible valences of the term "'better' person."


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## T-Bag (Jun 16, 2008)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> Hmm...I believe the term commonly used to describe that guy would be a "Douche" ...all the CEOs, Presidents of companies, leaders, etc that I know DO say hi and make an effort to be kind and get to know the people a little lower on the totem pole (a smart executive KNOWS that without his "little people" he has nothing and is nothing - that is what makes them well liked and generally successful people)...


+1

The owner of my company has a net worth north of $1B, although he doesn't know each and every one of his roughly 7000 employees, he is on a first name basis with most of his management and most of his salesforce.

I was fortunate enough to be invited to his health club as a guest 3 days a week for 4+ months while I was in training. Having access to someone like that is invaluable to employees as they can learn tremendous amounts from him and he is well aware of that fact. He actually teaches leadership and best practices classes and always eats in the cafeteria as to make himself accessible to his employees.

Maybe that is the difference between Bank Branch "Presidents" and self-made BILLIONARES?


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

I think you could come up with a way of examining someone's clothing and material possessions and create a quantified, numeric rating.

You could include the make and grade of his suit, shirt, tie, and shoes, plus his use of various accessories and his ability to coordinate.

Then take into account the quality of his automobile, wristwatch, etc.

You could even include extra points if he is a fan of F1, horse racing, croquet, polo or rugby.

Of course, you would also subtract points if he can name more than two NASCAR drivers, or if he enjoys lowbrow sports like bass fishing.

I think an element of subtlety would need to be used in determining the point value for some of the items. For example, owning a Rolex watch is an indicator that the person wants to show off an expensive watch, whereas a JLC watch would indicate that the person actually has an appreciation for wristwatches and doesn't necessarily care if people recognize how much it costs.

You would be able to use the score to estimate the man's occupation and educational status.

Anyone want to take a first crack at a scoring system?


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## Xhine23 (Jan 17, 2008)

[/quote]
The president of a bank does not generally associate with the teller and generally drives a 
more expensive car , lives in a more expensive house and wears more expensive clothing.
If not what is the point of being the president of a bank ?[/quote]

Driving an expensive car or wearing an expensive suit doesnt mean you are the president,ceo et al.
You need skills and knowledge to run any organization and I'm sure you wont obtain them by driving a porsche or wearing a kiton.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> It appears the word " better ' is used instead of elitist. Better is defined as " Greater in excellence or higher in quality " , " One's superiors , especially in social standing , competence , or intelligence ". There are other definitions , but no mention of elitism.
> 
> Using the definition better than one would generally buy an expensive suit or any expensive item
> to prove one's worth. We do live in a consumer driven economy don't we ?
> ...


The senior vice president at the bank I go to frequently associates and talks with the tellers and lower members of the bank, and in fact there are multiple people who drive equally nice cars there.

Is it elitist to wear Kiton? Inherently no; however, as others have said if you're trying to wear your money on your sleeve, then yes it is.

Personally I would go bespoke before paying $5000+ for an off the rack suit.

I believe you're an elitest. Based on all your posts, it is clear that you think formula one fans are better because they dress nicer than Nascar fans. You think people who drive Porsches and other expensive imports are better than those of us who drive a car made by the Big Three. The list goes on sir. You are apparently quite insecure with yourself, and need to show off what money you do have.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> I think you could come up with a way of examining someone's clothing and material possessions and create a quantified, numeric rating.
> 
> You could include the make and grade of his suit, shirt, tie, and shoes, plus his use of various accessories and his ability to coordinate.
> 
> ...


We can just assume silverporsche wins.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

brokencycle said:


> We can just assume silverporsche wins.


Naturally, he is the pinnacle of sartorial and societal evolution. For millions of years, mother nature has been working her way up to this...


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> The senior vice president at the bank I go to frequently associates and talks with the tellers and lower members of the bank, and in fact there are multiple people who drive equally nice cars there.
> 
> Is it elitist to wear Kiton? Inherently no; however, as others have said if you're trying to wear your money on your sleeve, then yes it is.
> 
> ...


I discuss the subjects sir. You don't know me or anyone else on this forum. If you wish to 
practice physiology you might find it more rewarding on another site.
The subject is clothing and elitism. There are counterpoints, one can agree to disagree with another's opinion.

Is buying bespoke clothing elitist. Certainly the cost is greater. That is another subject. 
which might be addressed at a later point. The issue is not what others do but what is your opinion on this subject ?

As for as NASCAR I responded to the subject on that issue , you can agree or disagree.
The issue was clothing worn at NASCAR not whether the fans attending NASCAR or F1 
was better !


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> I discuss the subjects sir. You don't know me or anyone else on this forum. If you wish to
> practice physiology you might find it more rewarding on another site.
> The subject is clothing and elitism. There are counterpoints, one can agree to disagree with another's opinion.
> 
> ...


I think you mean psychology. If someone was trying to practice physiology on you, well, it would look funny (and I don't think you can practice physiology on someone, but if anyone has any ideas I'm willing to learn). Maybe, "just because your kidneys are out of place doesn't mean you're a bad person."


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> If you wish to
> practice physiology you might find it more rewarding on another site.


I admit that I am elitist in that I look down on people who are incapable of communicating properly.

For example, your misuse of the word physiology is amusing to me.

Based on your malapropism, I think that you are lowbrow and probably not very well educated.

I find this to be a more reliable measure of class than one's possessions.

Hey, call me elitist...


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> I discuss the subjects sir. You don't know me or anyone else on this forum. If you wish to
> practice physiology you might find it more rewarding on another site.
> The subject is clothing and elitism. There are counterpoints, one can agree to disagree with another's opinion.
> 
> ...


Actually buying bespoke is not necessarily more expensive than Kiton or Brioni.

You're right, I don't know you (but I doubt I can perform physiology on you). However, I can make an educated guess (some call that a hypothesis) based on your statements here.

We have all responded to your posts and you constantly decry them as personal attacks or not addressing the issue. The only reason they don't address the issue is because 95% of us don't agree.

You apparently base your self-worth off of your possesions, because your handle is "silverporsche," a reference to something you want people to identify you with (a possession). So please, enlighten us, prove to us that you're not a materialistic elitest.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> I admit that I am elitist in that I look down on people who are incapable of communicating properly.
> 
> For example, your misuse of the word physiology is amusing to me.
> 
> ...


You're an elitist! :devil:


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

brokencycle said:


> You're an elitist! :devil:


Like I care what the little people think!


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## T-Bag (Jun 16, 2008)

brokencycle said:


> because your handle is "silverporsche," a reference to something you want people to identify you with


Uh-oh. . . . . :icon_smile_big:


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> Actually buying bespoke is not necessarily more expensive than Kiton or Brioni.
> 
> You're right, I don't know you (but I doubt I can perform physiology on you). However, I can make an educated guess (some call that a hypothesis) based on your statements here.
> 
> ...


I don't have to prove anything to you ! or enlighten you. The subject is elitism not me.
Speak for yourself and not others. If there is disagreement with my points than so what.
A forum is based on discussions not agreements.

Again discuss the subject ! otherwise don't respond. There are other subjects on this forum you might find more interesting.
Your opinion of me is a bore ! I can use whatever handle I choose. 
I don't think you are a moderator for Ask Andy. My only suggestion to you is use spell check.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Is there any different if the discussion was about Porsches , Ferrrari , or Aston Martin ?


You put Porsche in the same league as Ferrari and Aston Martin? You are dreaming now. Heck, even an ordinary guy can own a Porsche, excluding something like the 911 Turbo; but even then Porsche starts topping out at about the entry level point for those other guys. Owning something like a Boxter doesn't put one in the Ferrari or Aston Martin crowd, that's for sure. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> I admit that I am elitist in that I look down on people who are incapable of communicating properly.
> 
> For example, your misuse of the word physiology is amusing to me.
> 
> ...


His use of spaces before punctuation marks may not be elitist or lowbrow, but it is certainly annoying. :crazy:


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> You put Porsche in the same league as Ferrari and Aston Martin? You are dreaming now. Heck, even an ordinary guy can own a Porsche, excluding something like the 911 Turbo; but even then Porsche starts topping out at about the entry level point for those other guys. Owning something like a Boxter doesn't put one in the Ferrari or Aston Martin crowd, that's for sure. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


To answer your question which is off the subject. No Ferrari and Aston Martins are generally exotic cars.
Except maybe the Ferrari F430 an eight cylinder car. Aston Martin also builds a car
that is generally not considered exotic , the V8 Vantage coupe.

The Boxer is an entry level Porsche. I don't think the ordinary guy buys a Porsche 911 .
Cost as well as maintenance is rather expensive. Not as much as the other two cars
but not for the average guys.

Mercedes sells cars that is in the same price range as both Ferrari and Aston Martin.
BMW comes close.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> I don't have to prove anything to you ! or enlighten you. The subject is elitism not me.
> Speak for yourself and not others. If there is disagreement with my points than so what.
> A forum is based on discussions not agreements.
> 
> ...


Why is it that when people respond with an opinion other than your own it is off-subject?

I am not a moderator, nor did I say you couldn't use any handle you want. If I did say that, point it out please. I am simply making an observation.

And I'm the one who needs to use a spell check?

I in fact did respond to the subject. Kiton is not necessarily elitist nor is bespoke. Buying something expensive doesn't make you an elitist, in fact often time people who buy expensive stuff is anything but elite.

I didn't join this forum to be "elitist." In fact, I joined this forum so I could learn more about clothes and make better purchasing decisions and provide what insights and anecdotes that I could.

As an aside: you were the one who brought up cars (like you do in every thread).


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

I don't think Silver knows he is doing that. He is either not reading the posts, not reading the posts very carefully, or some how automatically dismisses anything he doesn't want to hear and then claims it's not on topic.

Silver, there are plenty of posts on elitism. It seems a majority think you can own nice stuff and be an elite member of society without being a jerk-off. But maybe you would rather hear that it's alright and perfectly acceptable to look down on people who don't have what you do. We all do it right? When I see people who are so obviously beneath me I spit on them and call them scum.

There are forums to talk about physiology, psychology, and also *cars*.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> Why is it that when people respond with an opinion other than your own it is off-subject?
> 
> I am not a moderator, nor did I say you couldn't use any handle you want. If I did say that, point it out please. I am simply making an observation.
> 
> ...


As long as you discuss the subject. I am not the subject. Your opinion of me is not the subject. I include cars in some responses because we generally all have cars.
That makes for a good comparison in my opinion.

I never said anyone was an elitist. Read the subject please. that is what a forum is for. Point and counterpoint. That is why I submitted the thread
concerning elitism and men's clothing.

Watch time a leading magazine about watches wrote " Rolls-Royce is like a Vacheron Constantin , A Porsche is a Rolex Cosmograph Daytona , A Mercedes is a Rolex Oyster 
Perpetual , A Jaguar as a Cartier or a Jaeger-LaCoultre Reverso , Panerai is something like a 
Hummer , an Audermars Piguet Royal Oak is like a Range Rover and a Patek Philippes is like a Bentley.

Certainly if a leading watch magazine can compare watches to cars why not compare clothing to cars ?


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> Are you capable of discussing a subject ? the subject is elitism as it applies to clothing , cars ,
> watches even ink pens. Try and offer a counterpoint and stay way from if you can
> personal attacks.


Here is where I believe you are flawed. Cars and clothing cannot be compared neutrally. You see, cars are still a luxury. Clothing always was and always will be a necessity in life. It is to unfair to judge clothing the same way one would a superficial luxury.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

SkySov said:


> When I see people who are so obviously beneath me I spit on them and call them scum.


That was you the other day? That spit stain still won't come out of my shirt. :icon_smile_big:


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Does discussing or comparing those items with less expensive items means one is elitist ?


No, but naming yourself after those items gives the impression you're trying to be.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> As long as you discuss the subject. I am not the subject. Your opinion of me is not the subject. I include cars in some responses because we generally all have cars.
> That makes for a good comparison in my opinion.
> 
> I never said anyone was an elitist. Read the subject please. that is what a forum is for. Point and counterpoint. That is why I submitted the thread
> ...


Do you not read what people write?  I never accused you of calling me or anyone else an elitist. And until recently, when you started getting defensive, we weren't talking directly about you. Then you took great offense, so *you made yourself* the subject. Let me repeat that because it appears little of what I have wrote you have actually read: *you made yourself *the subject.

First of all, I think it is moronic to compare a watch to a car. Because saying watch "A" is like car "x" and watch "B" is like car "Y" is meaning less. Besides, what if I think car x is of higher quality and I like the styling of such a car better; however, I think watch "A" is overpriced crap.

Too bad they didn't compare the Rolex Submariner to the Porsche, because then I could say "they're similar because almost ever elitest asshat has one." :devil:

Back to the clothing. Comparing Brioni to Kiton is comparing apples to apples in a sense, while comparing either or to bespoke is apples to oranges. Comparing Brioni and Kiton to JAB or Men's Wearhouse is also basically comparing apples to oranges. The former are expensive articles of clothing that the majority can't afford and they have many luxury details. However, the suits from the latter still keep you warm and clothed. Just like you may prefer apples; however, if you're starving to death, an orange will still keep you fed and provide important nourishment.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

I agree with much of what Brokencycle has said. You _can_ compare watches and cars and clothes to each other, but it's probably not the best way. However, I do think you can compare Brioni to JAB, and do so without being elitist. For example, what if I were to ask: I can get a JAB sig gold on clearance for $200 so why should I buy a Brioni even though I can afford it easily? Then some informed posters here would go over what makes Brioni different and worth the extra cost.

Edit: I said "and do so without being an elitist" and I probably shouldn't have used elitist. I was thinking of that word because of the thread. I should have said you can compare expensive and cheap clothing to each other without being an "asshat" which is now my favorite word.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

haha

My girlfriend's family had a calender made for me for Christmas from that website and that was one of the ones they picked out. I totally forgot about it. Hilarious.


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## esk8mw (May 18, 2008)

Wow, people can sure make a simple concept difficult. Here's your answer:

"Elite" is a neutral word describing something that a large segment of society cannot attain, whether it be for lack of skill, funds, etc. Doesn't matter. Expensive suits fall into this category simply because a large segment is effectively prohibited from buying them due to the cost.

"Elitism" is pejorative. It describes people that feel superior to others, deservedly or not. So, if you wear expensive suits and sneer at those that do not, you are an elitist. If you own 10 different K50s and are not a douche, you are still not an elitist.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

^ OK, you're right. Let's answer the questions:



silverporsche said:


> Than are those men's clothing listed above for elites ?


NO. Anyone with a credit card and a few years to pay it off can get one.



> There is also discussions here about high end ink pins , and very expensive watches.
> Is there any different if the discussion was about Porsches , Ferrrari , or Aston Martin ?


Huh? Is there a difference between discussing cars and high end clothes? I think so. But if you're dead set on it, and it appears that you are, you can reach and find similarities. Antenna ornaments are like pocket squares.



> Elite is defined as ' The best or most skilled members of a social group " Elitism , " A sense of being part of a superior or privileged group.
> The question does wearing an expensive , pair of shoes , suit or shirt determines that one is elitist. Does discussing or comparing those items with less expensive items means one is elitist ?


No.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Scoundrel said:


> Here is where I believe you are flawed. Cars and clothing cannot be compared neutrally. You see, cars are still a luxury. Clothing always was and always will be a necessity in life. It is to unfair to judge clothing the same way one would a superficial luxury.


Cars are not in Americas a luxury. We have a terrible mass transit system. Without a car or excess to a car many cannot find employment. 
Not all clothing is a necessary , example a Borrelli shirt or a pair of Gucci shoes is not a necessary.
One can buy a shirt at Walmart that is generally a necessary , but certainly not Ralph Lauren Purple label is not. There is need and there is want , no one needs a Mercedes some one wants a Mercedes. One may need a car for transportation , a Ford or Chevy.
No one needs an Oxxford suit but one may need a suit for a job interview. Sears will do.

The items discussed on this forum are wanted, not needed. So than we can compare a 
BMW with a certain suit or pair of shoes. Both generally very costly.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

Ok. Silver, I'm curious. Instead of discussing if a car can be compared to clothing let's actually see if it can be done. You are probably among the best authority here on cars and seem to know quite a lot on luxury clothes and accessories. So why not try? Take, BMW and Oxxford as you mentioned, or something else it doesn't matter. And show us how you would compare them.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> Cars are not in Americas a luxury. We have a terrible mass transit system. Without a car or excess to a car many cannot find employment.
> Not all clothing is a necessary , example a Borrelli shirt or a pair of Gucci shoes is not a necessary.
> One can buy a shirt at Walmart that is generally a necessary , but certainly not Ralph Lauren Purple label is not. There is need and there is want , no one needs a Mercedes some one wants a Mercedes. One may need a car for transportation , a Ford or Chevy.
> No one needs an Oxxford suit but one may need a suit for a job interview. Sears will do.
> ...


A car is not needed. Both here in Kenosha and in Madison where I go to school there is plenty of mass transportation. What about Chicago? There's this magical thing called feet - for walking. There are trains and buses all over the place.

Or try leaving near your job. A car is not needed for a job, although a shirt (unless you're a lifeguard or pornstar) are needed for employment.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

SkySov said:


> lol. what? This is a car forum now?


If it is I am staying out of it. I posted enough, and probably too much, about racing cars in another thread.

Besides, I don't understand comparing suits with cars or watches.

Have fun, Jim.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

brokencycle said:


> A car is not needed. Both here in Kenosha and in Madison where I go to school there is plenty of mass transportation. What about Chicago? There's this magical thing called feet - for walking. There are trains and buses all over the place.
> 
> Or try leaving near your job. A car is not needed for a job, although a shirt (unless you're a lifeguard or pornstar) are needed for employment.


Try getting around in LA or St.Louis without a car. Try also walking to a job in the suburbs
from the city. One may not have the means to live near their job. 
Many minorities don't live near their jobs. Many minorities live in the city of St.Louis but the jobs are in the suburbs. There is little or no mass transit in this area.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Try getting around in LA or St.Louis without a car. Try also walking to a job in the suburbs
> from the city. One may not have the means to live near their job.
> Many minorities don't live near their jobs. Many minorities live in the city of St.Louis but the jobs are in the suburbs. There is little or no mass transit in this area.


Well, that is partly true. The public transit is not like Chicago that is for sure, but you can still get to most places using Metro. I ride my bike a lot, and the Metro buses now have bike racks. It's not the fastest way to travel, but it is cheap, and it beats sitting in traffic. I ride the Metrolink to ballgames or whenever I head downtown. One of the stops is just minutes from our house so it is convenient. I live in the inner ring suburbs (Webster Groves) though, so it is a bit easier for me to get around using public transportation that it would be for someone from the far west suburbs.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

SkySov said:


> Ok. Silver, I'm curious. Instead of discussing if a car can be compared to clothing let's actually see if it can be done. You are probably among the best authority here on cars and seem to know quite a lot on luxury clothes and accessories. So why not try? Take, BMW and Oxxford as you mentioned, or something else it doesn't matter. And show us how you would compare them.


Brioni , Italian , beautifully made , sleek , excellent , European with a flair.
Expensive to own and maintain.
That could be how one describes a Ferrari.

Old world charm , traditional lines , swings with dignity , class , sophisticated in their taste.. A Jaguar , Bentley , or maybe a Burberry raincoat , Edward Green shoes are a Turnbull and Asser shirt.
Bond or Prince Charles if you get my point.

Oxxford , square , well made , high class construction , nothing frivolous . that might describe a BMW or Mercedes.

All items listed above is expensive. Purchased for a variety of reasons , none are needed.
You may or may not like the people who own them. 
One does look out of place even in today's dress down environment driving a Jaguar 
wearing jeans or a Mercedes SL 500 in a Sears suit.

All of the clothing as well as the cars have different personalities. 
Not for everyone.


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## esk8mw (May 18, 2008)

What an asinine and ridiculous exercise you just engaged in. Those minutes of your life will never be recovered.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> Edward Green shoes are a Turnbull and Asser shirt.


So you wear the shoes around your chest and arms? Or do you wear the shirt on your feet?


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

silverporsche said:


> The Boxer is an entry level Porsche.


Not to be pedantic but I believe Porsche's entry level vehicle is the Boxster, which for those not as sophisticated as old silverporsche was named because it is a roadster with a boxer engine.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> To answer your question which is off the subject.


It is? I took it straight from your post which was the original post in the thread.



> The Boxer is an entry level Porsche. I don't think the ordinary guy buys a Porsche 911 .
> Cost as well as maintenance is rather expensive.


I know what a Boxster is. As for ordinary guys buying a 911, I have two friends who have 911's and they are both pretty ordinary, including the crushing debt that they both have. I guess it's worth it to them.

You seem really hung up on this status and prestige thing, and from reading your prior posts much of it seems to center around this Porsche that I assume you own. Is that thing really what you base your self worth upon? It sure seems to be important to you.

Cruiser


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## indylion (Feb 28, 2005)

silverporsche said:


> The word elitist or elitism is referred to many times on this forum. Yet Ask Andy is generally
> a discussion about men's clothing that very few men can afford , Example : Brioni , Borrelli ,
> Zenga , Lattanzi , John Lobb , Oxxford , Edward Green etc.
> Certainly a Kiton suit is beyond the financial means of most men.
> ...


Many criminals can afford and buy all of the above. Then again, they are the best or most skilled members of their social group?:crazy:


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> Cars are not in Americas a luxury.


I look down on people with poor sentence structure.

The dishwasher at my country club has better grammar than you do.

Pfft....


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

Throw over the fence the horse some hay.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

Oh come on now you are just being mean to Silver to be mean. It's like attacking President Bush for his speech when there are so many more legitimate things to object to. Besides, these aren't formal documents we are writing it's a freaking Internet forum.

There may even be a small cult group somewhere who would appreciate Silver's unique writing style and similes. When having serious discussions on clothes it may be hard for the larger group to relate to such comparisons though. For example, if I were to ask about Oxxford and you were to reply it's like a BMW I would WTF you.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

SkySov said:


> Oh come on now you are just being mean to Silver to be mean. It's like attacking President Bush for his speech when there are so many more legitimate things to object to. Besides, these aren't formal documents we are writing it's a freaking Internet forum.
> 
> There may even be a small cult group somewhere who would appreciate Silver's unique writing style and similes. When having serious discussions on clothes it may be hard for the larger group to relate to such comparisons though. For example, if I were to ask about Oxxford and you were to reply it's like a BMW I would WTF you.


Sorry, but if he can choose to identify members of different social classes based on their clothing and automobiles, then I can choose them based on their ability to speak English.

It's a free country, and I choose to place Silverporsche on one of the bottom rungs of the social ladder.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

No. Actually telling people, unsolicited, that you're wearing a Kiton suit (or any other designer for that matter) is elitist...and tacky.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> You seem really hung up on this status and prestige thing, and from reading your prior posts much of it seems to center around this Porsche that I assume you own. Is that thing really what you base your self worth upon? It sure seems to be important to you.


DING DING DING! We have a winner!


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## ChriO (Feb 23, 2006)

SkySov said:


> Besides, these aren't formal documents we are writing it's a freaking Internet forum.


True - the usual mistakes are due to the fact that people pay less attention to things they type for the net. If they do it during work hours they might be in a hurry as well and don't proofread. Depending on typing skills a lot of typos can slip through this way. Bad grammar and style are often the result of trying to shorten things, to minimize effort. - U know what I say?
What always raises my eyebrows though are people who spend a lot of effort on the repeated mistakes they make - like taking the time to put a wrong blank in front of each and every comma.

Well, back to topic: Silverporsche, you seem to have an unhealthy relation to expensive brands and therefore you come across as elitist. You are frequently giving the impression that you buy expensive things not because you enjoy them for their quality and style, but to impress other people by displaying them. There is nothing wrong with trying to impress from time to time, but there is a problem with that kind of impression: It only works for a short time or on shallow people. If you want to impress intelligent people in the long run, you need to impress with substance. Contrary to veneer it is impossible to buy that kind of substance.
Depending on your goals the shallow approach might work well in general, but it is the wrong approach for this forum.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

Bogdanoff said:


> [image]


That is wonderful.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

On the subject of $3000+ RTW handmade suits: One can be _expensively_ but not necessarily _well_ dressed.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

*Cylinder count elitism now??*



silverporsche said:


> To answer your question which is off the subject. No Ferrari and Aston Martins are generally exotic cars.
> Except maybe the Ferrari F430 an eight cylinder car.


Most Porsches (and every 911 of which I'm aware) utilize a 6 cylinder engine. What does that say about Porsche then, if we're counting cylinders?


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> You could even include extra points if he is a fan of F1, horse racing, croquet, polo or rugby.


What about jai alai? Don't forget jai alai!


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

ChriO said:


> True - the usual mistakes are due to the fact that people pay less attention to things they type for the net. If they do it during work hours they might be in a hurry as well and don't proofread. Depending on typing skills a lot of typos can slip through this way. Bad grammar and style are often the result of trying to shorten things, to minimize effort. - U know what I say?
> What always raises my eyebrows though are people who spend a lot of effort on the repeated mistakes they make - like taking the time to put a wrong blank in front of each and every comma.
> 
> Well, back to topic: Silverporsche, you seem to have an unhealthy relation to expensive brands and therefore you come across as elitist. You are frequently giving the impression that you buy expensive things not because you enjoy them for their quality and style, but to impress other people by displaying them. There is nothing wrong with trying to impress from time to time, but there is a problem with that kind of impression: It only works for a short time or on shallow people. If you want to impress intelligent people in the long run, you need to impress with substance. Contrary to veneer it is impossible to buy that kind of substance.
> Depending on your goals the shallow approach might work well in general, but it is the wrong approach for this forum.


Sir.
The subject is not me. Your analysis of me is a waste. If you find the subject uninteresting
than move on. I am sure you have better things than to do than waste it on a non subject issues.

How I come across is your opinion , you speak only for yourself. You live in Germany , I in America ,I would think you have learned about the freedom of expression by now.
You are in no position to determine what is or what isn't the approach of this forum.

Unless you have forgotten the subject is " Is wearing a Kiton suit considered elitist "


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> Sorry, but if he can choose to identify members of different social classes based on their clothing and automobiles, then I can choose them based on their ability to speak English.
> 
> It's a free country, and I choose to place Silverporsche on one of the bottom rungs of the social ladder.


It would be very easy to respond to your attacks, but than why ? 
Was it not Will Rogers who said " You never get a second chance to make a first 
impression ". " A man is judged by his clothes a horse by it's saddle " now who said that.

Are you a miss-placed professor Higgins ? Now where would I place you.
The subject is not me sir ! Can you intelligently discuss the subject.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> Most Porsches (and every 911 of which I'm aware) utilize a 6 cylinder engine. What does that say about Porsche then, if we're counting cylinders?


There was a Dino , a six cylinder car built by Ferrari . Porsche also built an eight cylinder car , 928. Ferrari has built six cylinder as well as eight cylinder cars.
Porsche racing cars were flat 12's and six's. 
It is you who is counting cylinders.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> It is? I took it straight from your post which was the original post in the thread.
> 
> I know what a Boxster is. As for ordinary guys buying a 911, I have two friends who have 911's and they are both pretty ordinary, including the crushing debt that they both have. I guess it's worth it to them.
> 
> ...


Sir,
There are exceptions in all cases. Porsches are not marketed for the ordinary guy.
Companies spend millions in marketing . Many of the men's clothing discussed on this forum are not marketed at the ordinary guy. 
The ordinary guy does not own a $70,000 to $140,000 sports car !

Berluti , John Lobb , Zegna , Kabbaz , Canal , etc are not marketed at the average guy.
Most Americans are unaware of most of these men's items.
Most American will never own or drive a Porsche. Where one places one's worth is one's own business. You don't know what is important to me. You don't know me.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> " A man is judged by his clothes a horse by it's saddle " now who said that.


I have no idea who said that but it certainly isn't very sound advice. One should always remove the saddle from a horse before judging said animal as it can hide problems, most notably a curvature of the back. As for a man's clothes, history is filled with absolutely despicable men who nevertheless dressed very well.

Cruiser


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## markdc (May 17, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> I have no idea who said that but it certainly isn't very sound advice.
> 
> Cruiser


You're right, Cruiser. Furthermore, the OP didn't even quote the proverb correctly. The actual Chinese proverb, from what I understand, is "_Don't _judge a horse by its saddle, and _don't _judge a person by his clothes."


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## edhillpr (Apr 19, 2007)

Is wearing the Kiton suit elitist? 
The answer lies in the attitude that motivates you to wear the Kiton suit.

If you constantly tell people about the brand name suit or car you have, then you are the best consumer I could possibly have as a merchant or advertiser. 

As an advertiser, I don't care if my consumer is elitist. Regardless of attitude or motivation for buying, you will recommend the suit to friends or internet forum readers. Thus I make more sale of my product, through the good word of mouth or buzz about my product.

Let's say I position the suit I sell as being a social status marker.
Then I will probably attract people who value their social status above all else. This need may be deep seated. 

There are even subtle variations;
Does the consumer buy the luxury image product to reward himself for his achievements?
Maybe he buys it to impress others in his social group.
Consumer may buy the luxury brand suit only because he sees that it has a better fit (if altered, MTM or bespoke), has better variety of fabric quality or patterns.

As pointed out by other posters, it would only be elitism in the pejorative sense if the buyer of luxury brand products thought owning the product or brand name some how made him better than others.

For me, I try to find suits and jackets that fit best and make you look your best. I think this works best with the few MTM suits, jackets and shirts I have. But I also have a few Brooks Brothers, JAB or other items that look good because the fit is good. With clothes, I think fit and styling are definitely more important than brand name. But over time we learn that some brands fit our body type well and some do not.

I get a good feeling from looking in the mirror and seeing a suit, or jacket that fits really well. I then go to work or out socially with clothing that conveys my self image. In a meeting, especially with clients, I try to look like the smartest and most well prepared advertising man in the room. 

So buying the best suit or brand name may be elitist in the better sense. You may choose that brand because you find their RTW or tailor altered suits fit you perfectly. You may buy that brand because it is part of your business strategy or personal strategy to express the prudent and successful image that you have of yourself.

Ed


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> It would be very easy to respond to your attacks, but than why ?
> Was it not Will Rogers who said " You never get a second chance to make a first
> impression ". " A man is judged by his clothes a horse by it's saddle " now who said that.
> 
> ...


Sorry, you get to start a discussion if you want, but the people participating in the discussion can choose to take it in a particular direction.

This isn't a case of a single person making off-topic posts on your thread.

Rather, the majority of the people participating in this thread (i.e., everyone but you) have chosen to focus on futility and stupidity of attempting to judge people by their possessions.

So, you're just going to have to accept the fact that this conversation has changeed.

You may very well choose to define people by their possessions. But I really do judge native English speakers on their ability ot use the language. You may not like that, but you can't do anything about it.

Rather than complaining about how unfair my method of judging others is, perhaps you can reflect on how others may think it is absurd for you to judge others by their possessions.

Frankly, you seem like a pretty shallow person, so I doubt that you are capable of that kind of self reflection. That is why you will reply by saying that this thread isn't about you, and that I am not discussing the topic at hand. You simply have no concept of how ridiculous you are.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Another dogpile. We needs to mix custom-shirt squabble in here somehow...


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## ChriO (Feb 23, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Sir.
> The subject is not me. Your analysis of me is a waste. If you find the subject uninteresting
> than move on. I am sure you have better things than to do than waste it on a non subject issues.


I am free to do with my spare time as I please.



> How I come across is your opinion , you speak only for yourself.


I never stated otherwise.



> Unless you have forgotten the subject is " Is wearing a Kiton suit considered elitist "


I answered that already, you just chose to ignore it: Wearing something or owning something is in general not considered elitist. But if you wear something for the sake of demonstrating this fact it is elitist. Since this is your thread and your on-line image is a prime example of this attitude it makes a lot more sense to use your image as an example than pale comparisons between clothes and cars. I can understand that you are not fond of this, but the usual caveat applies: Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear the answers. And don't expect all people to only give you the answers that you want to hear.

For the record, before you bring it up again: I don't consider amusement a waste of time. This thread and how it develops is very amusing to me. You might be of the opinion that I waste your time, but I don't care about that. You may ignore me.


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

What exactly is elitist about a suit purchased in a store?


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> The word elitist or elitism is referred to many times on this forum. Yet Ask Andy is generally
> a discussion about men's clothing that very few men can afford , Example : Brioni , Borrelli ,
> Zenga , Lattanzi , John Lobb , Oxxford , Edward Green etc.
> Certainly a Kiton suit is beyond the financial means of most men.
> ...


The funny thing about this whole discussion is that everyone fails to realize that affordability is a relative concept. A $4000 suit may seem totally un-affordable (and thereby "elite") to most people. But if you really think about it, to have $4000 in your checking account isn't really any big deal and certainly doesn't make you elite. Some simply choose to spend all $4000 of their money on a Kiton suit. You're left with a guy that is wearing Kiton, but by most definitions, is far from elite with $0 left to his name. It's all about priorities and everyone's are different.

You may laugh at my example and call it extreme; stop and think for a minute. Can crackheads "afford" crack? No - they just choose to spend the money they can scrounge - ALL of the money they can scrounge - on crack. Can most college students afford all the beer they drink? Probably not. Most just choose to allocate most of what little money they have to beer.

So, no. The act itself of wearing a Kiton suit is not elite. Many people who wear Kiton suits are, coincidentally, elite. But simply wearing a Kiton suit means little more than you spent $4000 on your suit.

Never judge a book by its cover.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

During a cruise I was in Nassau or Cozumel or some place and saw people selling t-shirts with big ass Tommy Hilfiger logos on the front. But they aren't real of course. Some kind of fruit of the loom undershirt with the logo printed on it. Do you think when people buy these they trying to show off they have a TH shirt and trying to be elitist? I was reminded of this by the judging people by their clothes quote. There may be a lot of people who believe that, and are those that do who can't afford name brands attracted to these knock-offs? I mean, if the majority of people thought like a majority of posters here, that judging people by their clothes is ridiculous, then why is there a market for knock-off clothing and accessories? Just trying to spark discussion.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

SkySov,

That's a really good point. There are also people who buy Cuban cigars while they're in the Caribbean. 99% of the Cuban cigars in the Caribbean are counterfeit. It doesn't matter, though. Most of the people who buy them just want to give them to their friends and show off. They wouldn't know a good cigar if it bit them in the ass.


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27 (Feb 23, 2008)

IMO, wearing a Kiton suit does not make you an elitist. For anyone that does, is it the brand name or the pricetag that makes you think so? 

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Saks sell Brioni and Kiton suits on sale for $1.5-$2K right after Christmas? A lot of people can find ways to get what some might consider "elitist" clothing. You will never see a new car go on sale for 100%-150% off the full retail price. Sorry, but comparing clothing and cars just doesn't make sense to me.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> "A man is judged by his clothes a horse by it's saddle " now who said that.


OK, I'll bite. Who said this? A salesperson at the Gucci store? A saddle salesman? Or was this gem something you cooked up on your own?


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> ...on sale for 100%-150% off the full retail price...


I would like to be there for that sale!


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## T-Bag (Jun 16, 2008)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> There are also people who buy Cuban cigars while they're in the Caribbean. 99% of the Cuban cigars in the Caribbean are counterfeit. It doesn't matter, though. Most of the people who buy them just want to give them to their friends and show off. They wouldn't know a good cigar if it bit them in the ass.


Quite true. I happen to buy many of my Cuban cigars from a well known vendor (in Cuban Cigar circles) that actually debands and reboxes them. I could care less if it has a Bolivar - Habana label on it as long as it has that distinctive Boli twang when I light it. . .


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

ChriO said:


> I am free to do with my spare time as I please.
> 
> I never stated otherwise.
> 
> ...


----------



## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> IMO, wearing a Kiton suit does not make you an elitist. For anyone that does, is it the brand name or the pricetag that makes you think so?
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Saks sell Brioni and Kiton suits on sale for $1.5-$2K right after Christmas? A lot of people can find ways to get what some might consider "elitist" clothing. You will never see a new car go on sale for 100%-150% off the full retail price. Sorry, but comparing clothing and cars just doesn't make sense to me.


I don't think Sak's sells either Kiton or Brioni. One can buy a used car for as much as 
90% off the retail price. Example a used Bentley Turbo can be had for about $20,000
it listed new for $200,000 , A BMW 850i listed for around $90,000 used it sells for
about $12,000. how about a Ferrari 400i new $90,000 used $18,000. The list includes Lamborghini's and Aston Martin's.

Where can you find a new Brioni or Kiton suit for 100 to 150% off ? Look on Ebay what are used Brioni and Kiton suits selling for in decent condition ?
Some American used cars can be had for a very reasonable price. As much as 90% of the retail price.

Many forum members buy used high end clothing, and you will find on car forums many
buy used high end cars. There is a market for used cars and used clothing.
Prices vary depending on the item and the condition.

With prices so high it makes sense in many cases to acquire used high end cars , watches , clothing , boats , etc. A ladies used Hermes purse can sell for as much as $10,000 still a bargain , New the price can triple if you can buy one. Are Aston Martin cars
any different ? With a three or four year waiting period, upon deposit.

If you wish not to compare cars and men's clothing that is your position , I choose to.
You can agree to disagree.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> I don't think Sak's sells either Kiton or Brioni.


Here's something that won't surprise anyone here:

You think wrong!


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

In Porsche's defense, the Saks stores in smaller market areas like Portland and Minneapolis usually only have Brioni ties, a few shirts if you're lucky. The suits are all Hugo or Armani.

But yes, the original statement seems rather odd, if you've been to Saks in New York and Beverly Hills.



Aaron in Allentown said:


> Here's something that won't surprise anyone here:
> 
> You think wrong!


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27 (Feb 23, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> I don't think Sak's sells either Kiton or Brioni. One can buy a used car for as much as
> 90% off the retail price. Example a used Bentley Turbo can be had for about $20,000
> it listed new for $200,000 , A BMW 850i listed for around $90,000 used it sells for
> about $12,000. how about a Ferrari 400i new $90,000 used $18,000. The list includes Lamborghini's and Aston Martin's.
> ...


In my post, I state that you will never find a NEW car for 100%-150% off. A smart shopper might be able to find a NEW Brioni or Kiton suit for 100%-150% off. 
Of course used cars are going to be well below full retail. That is obvious. My point has nothing to do with used cars or used clothing.


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> IMO, wearing a Kiton suit does not make you an elitist. For anyone that does, is it the brand name or the pricetag that makes you think so?
> 
> I don't think anyone on here has said that. I think the general consensus is that wearing something, even a very expensive suit, does not making you an elitist. But wearing something expensive and thinking that doing so somehow makes you superior to others is elitist.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

I want to ask another question in this thread. What if I were to say that I thought Kiton and Brioni, among the others, only exist for the shallow, insecure, people in the world who want stuff ordinary people can't get, and because they want people to respect them? That high end brands are for people who believe the statement people should be judged on their clothes and/or possessions?

And then ask: Who are some universally respected people in our world? Those who many people consider truly elite? Like Jesus, Ghandi, or Martin Luther King Jr.? And what did they wear?


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> I don't think Sak's sells either Kiton or Brioni. One can buy a used car for as much as
> 90% off the retail price. Example a used Bentley Turbo can be had for about $20,000
> it listed new for $200,000 , A BMW 850i listed for around $90,000 used it sells for
> about $12,000. how about a Ferrari 400i new $90,000 used $18,000. The list includes Lamborghini's and Aston Martin's.
> ...


Where can I find a Bently Turbo for $20,000 NWT.

You can't compare buying a car used to buying a suit brand new on sale. We're back to apples and oranges. Someone didn't learn the fundamentals.

So to clarify you're comparing buying a *used* car at a discount to buying a *new* suit at a discount.

Also, just because a suit goes for $4000 on ebay doesn't mean they can't be had cheaper. Turns out a lot of people try making a profit when using ebay. Now, I know this may not make a lot of sense, so I'll break it down for you. To make a profit on ebay, one has to buy/find/steal something, and then turn around and sell it on ebay for a *higher* price than they bought it for plus ebay fees, etc.

Edit: Those Bentley Turbos you talk about going for $20,000 are 18 years old and most have 100,000 miles on them. That would be like considering it a good deal to buy a Brioni suit for 500-750 that is 18 years old and has been worn once a week for all those years (which is 936 times).


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27 (Feb 23, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> I don't think Sak's sells either Kiton or Brioni.
> 
> Where can you find a new Brioni or Kiton suit for 100 to 150% off ? .


As Aaron in Allentown pointed out, they do sell them. 
And yes, you can sometimes find Kiton or Brioni suits marked down that much there right after Christmas.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> There was a Dino , a *six* cylinder car built by Ferrari . Porsche also built an *eight* cylinder car , 928. Ferrari has built *six* cylinder as well as *eight* cylinder cars.
> Porsche racing cars were flat *12's* and *six's*.
> It is you who is counting cylinders.


Yes, it is me who is counting cylinders. . .


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> A smart shopper might be able to find a NEW Brioni or Kiton suit for 100%-150% off.


Hmmm...

Let's take, for example, a suit with a retail price of $4000.

100% of $4000 is $4000, so a 100% discount would result in a sale price of $0.

150% of $4000 is $6000, so a 150% discount would result in a sale price of -$2000.

If you know of a retailer who will hand me a $4000 suit, and give me $2000 in cash along with it, please PM me!


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## JSweeney (Jan 25, 2008)

I like quotes too. 

*Outside show is a poor substitute for inner worth.* - Aesop.

*The difference between a man of sense and a fop is that the fop values himself upon his dress; and the man of sense laughs at it, at the same time he knows he must not neglect it.* *- *Lord Chesterfield.


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27 (Feb 23, 2008)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Let's take, for example, a suit with a retail price of $4000.
> 
> ...


You know what I mean. Ok, 50% to 63% off to be exact.


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## video2 (Feb 11, 2008)

figliachepiange said:


> I think you have answered your own question, in one respect at least. By the very nature of being expensive they exclude the majority from owning them, and so yes they are elitist, in that they seek to attract the wealthier among us. However, if you mean that by wearing them you are attempting to express your superiority over others, then no. Wearing an expensive layer of wool about you hardly makes you any better than the next man.


Agree


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> Frankly, you seem like a pretty shallow person, so I doubt that you are capable of that kind of self reflection. That is why you will reply by saying that this thread isn't about you, and that I am not discussing the topic at hand. You simply have no concept of how ridiculous you are.


Spot on.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> The question does wearing an expensive , pair of shoes , suit or shirt determines that one is elitist. Does discussing or comparing those items with less expensive items means one is elitist ?
> 
> Several questions , are there answers ?


The wearing of an expensive (name your preferred poison) does not make one an elitist but, asking the question with the intended primary purpose of generating argument and dissension, does seem to put one in the category of a troll!


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Sometimes I have to jump in. 

I know/have known some of Americas wealthiest people. Some going back 5 generations, others self made gazillionaires with NFL franchises. and 747s (that can outrun most F1 cars).

Not only would most of them not understand what this thread is about, most of them wouldn't even begin to care. I see them shopping in Walmart, buying garden hoses at Lowes, and driving an Expedition load of grandchildren.

If freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose, maybe "elite" is just another word for nothing left to gain. One guy's wife buys his clothes at the outlet mall while he buys NFL coaches. 

Having long past that age between childhood and adultery, I can afford Bordeaux but I prefer Zinfandel. It's not my fault it's cheaper. I don't miss my XKE. But I can't help but wonder if one of the contributors here doesn't go around with two sleeve buttons undone just in case somebody misses the first one...

Not that there's anything wrong with that.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

silverporsche said:


> Where can you find a new Brioni or Kiton suit for 100 to 150% off ? .


 I'm not a math major, but do work with numbers all day. If logic checks out, would it not be the case that if I found a new Brioni or Kiton for 100% off they would be giving it to me free, and if I found same suit at 150% off, the retailer would be handing me the suit plus half its original price in currency?

Silverporsche, quit while you're behind.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

And what is wrong with being elitist?

As the Kiton ad says: We do nothing. That is the goal. Make enough money not to do anything. Except what you want to. That is freedom. To live not as a servant to 'the man', but as a 'free man'. Of course, once free, one must restrain oneself, lest one make a fool's waste of time, and here is where the rules and philosophy come in.

And that is what those who work are scared of most, because they are so used to being servants, that they know not what to do with their time, if set free. Scared to think. What am I? Why am I here? What should I do?


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Bogdanoff said:


> And what is wrong with being elitist?
> 
> As the Kiton ad says: We do nothing. That is the goal. Make enough money not to do anything. Except what you want to. That is freedom. To live not as a servant to 'the man', but as a 'free man'. Of course, once free, one must restrain oneself, lest one make a fool's waste of time, and here is where the rules and philosophy come in.
> 
> And that is what those who work are scared of most, because they are so used to being servants, that they know not what to do with their time, if set free. Scared to think. What am I? Why am I here? What should I do?


Know all about the masses and how they think Bogdanoff? An expert in psychology or are you one of them?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Bogdanoff said:


> And what is wrong with being elitist?
> 
> As the Kiton ad says: We do nothing. That is the goal. Make enough money not to do anything. Except what you want to. That is freedom. To live not as a servant to 'the man', but as a 'free man'. Of course, once free, one must restrain oneself, lest one make a fool's waste of time, and here is where the rules and philosophy come in.
> 
> And that is what those who work are scared of most, because they are so used to being servants, that they know not what to do with their time, if set free. Scared to think. What am I? Why am I here? What should I do?


I knew some guys who did nothing. They sat around in their dorm room smoking weed, playing video games and watching movies. I wouldn't say they were elite, though they were rich...well, their parents were.

Your post reminds me of this old joke:

_An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. _
_The Mexican replied, "Only a little while." _
_The American then asked, "Why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" _
_The Mexican said, "With this I have more than enough to support my family's needs." _
_The American then asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" _
_The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life." _
_The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing; and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat: With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor; eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then Los Angeles and eventually New York where you will run your ever-expanding enterprise." _
_The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all take?" _
_To which the American replied, "15 to 20 years." _
_"But what then?" asked the Mexican. _
_The American laughed and said that's the best part. "When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions." _
_"Millions?...Then what?" __The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos. :icon_smile_big:_


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

cdavant said:


> But I can't help but wonder if one of the contributors here doesn't go around with two sleeve buttons undone just in case somebody misses the first one...
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.


There are a couple of people who do that over at Style Forum. I'm sure there are some who do it here. I don't know if it's to attract attention to their suits' cost. Seems in the same league of leaving one's bottom jacket button undone.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Bogdanoff said:


> And what is wrong with being elitist?
> 
> As the Kiton ad says: We do nothing. That is the goal. Make enough money not to do anything. Except what you want to. That is freedom. To live not as a servant to 'the man', but as a 'free man'. Of course, once free, one must restrain oneself, lest one make a fool's waste of time, and here is where the rules and philosophy come in.


The problem here is that you are making up a new definition of the word "elitist". From the _Free Online Dictionary_:

_The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources._

Being an elitist has nothing to do with how much money you have or how much freedom you have to do as you wish. An elitist believes that he/she is entitled to certain favors not granted to others. It is this attitude of entitlement that makes one an elitist, not mere possessions to include wealth.

I was backstage at an event a few years ago that featured a very famous celebrity, a man who was loved by the common man all over the U.S. for his onstage persona. I happened to encounter him on a stairway where he told me to "Get the Hell out of my way." He then proceeded to chew out a member of his party for not clearing the stairway before he ascended. The impression was that he was too famous to share a stairway with common people. His attitude made him an elitist, not his wealth.

Cruiser


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

SkySov said:


> I want to ask another question in this thread. What if I were to say that I thought Kiton and Brioni, among the others, only exist for the shallow, insecure, people in the world who want stuff ordinary people can't get, and because they want people to respect them? That high end brands are for people who believe the statement people should be judged on their clothes and/or possessions?
> 
> And then ask: Who are some universally respected people in our world? Those who many people consider truly elite? Like Jesus, Ghandi, or Martin Luther King Jr.? And what did they wear?


How would the person listed above compare to Henry Ford , John Rockeffer , or J.P.Morgan.
I would think those gentleman would be considered truly elite.
What would you think ?


----------



## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> The wearing of an expensive (name your preferred poison) does not make one an elitist but, asking the question with the intended primary purpose of generating argument and dissension, does seem to put one in the category of a troll!


We don't live in a totalitarian country sir, we have a constitution , we can ask questions. 
We can agree to disagree. Unless you can read minds , how would you know the intent 
is to generate an argument or dissension ?

Maybe you would want to censure debate, you may wish to confine discussion to what
you choose. Maybe you are concerned about political correctness. 
Once again you have the right to your opinion !


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> What would you think ?


I think that you are shallow and of marginal intelligence.

Either that, or you are a troll who is imitating someone who is shallow and of marginal intelligence.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

cdavant said:


> Sometimes I have to jump in.
> 
> I know/have known some of Americas wealthiest people. Some going back 5 generations, others self made gazillionaires with NFL franchises. and 747s (that can outrun most F1 cars).
> 
> ...


Choices , which only proves we are not a monolith. That is why some might buy a Lamborghini for image another because of performance.
We are judged by how we dress.

John T. Malloy wrote a book addressing men's clothing which was number one and sold over a million copies. " Dress for Success " 
Because one owns an NFL franchise does not mean he is aware of the proper ways to dress.
Some of the worst dresser's are wealthy sports personalities , yet there are others that dress quite well.

Proper dress is learned. to some dress is important others maybe not.
You experiences are interesting but unscientific.
My counterpoint.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Brooksfan said:


> I'm not a math major, but do work with numbers all day. If logic checks out, would it not be the case that if I found a new Brioni or Kiton for 100% off they would be giving it to me free, and if I found same suit at 150% off, the retailer would be handing me the suit plus half its original price in currency?
> 
> Silverporsche, quit while you're behind.


Excellent , I was responding to a post. Cars are discounted as well as clothing.
To buy an item at 90% discount it must be used. It could include many items for sale.
Retail price new $90,000 used price $9,000.

Your post makes sense to me.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> I think that you are shallow and of marginal intelligence.
> 
> Either that, or you are a troll who is imitating someone who is shallow and of marginal intelligence.


My opinion of you is not an issue , nor is your opinion of me. I do believe you can do better than that.


----------



## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

Earlier in this thread, I said,



Aaron in Allentown said:


> Sorry, you get to start a discussion if you want, but the people participating in the discussion can choose to take it in a particular direction.
> 
> This isn't a case of a single person making off-topic posts on your thread.
> 
> ...


My point still holds true:



silverporsche said:


> My opinion of you is not an issue , nor is your opinion of me. I do believe you can do better than that.


You just don't get it. This thread _is_ about you. The problem is that you are the only person who is incapable of grasping this simple, obvious fact.

Everyone else here is intelligent enough to see it.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> The problem here is that you are making up a new definition of the word "elitist". From the _Free Online Dictionary_:
> 
> _The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources._
> 
> ...


Not true the dictionary I used was " The American Heritage Dictionary. 
Your point is excellent there are some famous people who would not wish to be bothered 
by fans.
There are others who may enjoy meeting with fans.

I remember as a kid I approached Roy Campanella , all star Dodger catcher for an autograph
He said no , Jackie Robinson only a few feet away signed my autograph.
I understood these were to different players with two different attitudes.
Both are members of baseball's Hall of Fame.
I respect your opinion.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> Earlier in this thread, I said,
> 
> 
> My point still holds true:
> ...


You speak for others , little arrogant I would think.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

silverporsche said:


> You speak for others , little arrogant I would think.


Aaron has my proxy. Feel free to pass it around.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> You speak for others , little arrogant I would think.


The nerve of _you_ calling _me_ arrogant. Ha!


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

AMVanquish said:


> In Porsche's defense, the Saks stores in smaller market areas like Portland and Minneapolis usually only have Brioni ties, a few shirts if you're lucky. The suits are all Hugo or Armani.
> 
> But yes, the original statement seems rather odd, if you've been to Saks in New York and Beverly Hills.


You are correct the Sak's store in St.Louis , Brioni is not available. The store has even dropped Burberry trench coats.
It one of the smaller stores. 
The store here also carries Hugo and Armani. Most of the clothing discussed on Ask Andy 
is not available in St.Louis. If one wishes to purchase or even view many of these items , one must travel to Chicago.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> How would the person listed above compare to Henry Ford , John Rockeffer , or J.P.Morgan.
> I would think those gentleman would be considered truly elite.
> What would you think ?


You can't be serious right? In a thread mostly criticizing you for judging people by their wealth you throw out those three names? I am pretty much convinced now you are just a troll now. But what I think is I respect and give elite status to people for their ideas and actions, you obviously just care about people's money.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

What color Porsche did Henry Ford drive?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Not true the dictionary I used was " The American Heritage Dictionary.


OK, here is the _American Heritage Dictionary_ definition of "elitist".

_1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. _

_2. a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class. _
_b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class._

I see no difference in this definition than the one I quoted from _The Free Online Dictionary_. I have a hunch that you are confusing the word "elite" with the word "elitist". The key difference is that the elitist has the "belief" that he "deserves favored treatment". On the other hand a person can be "elite" in something without necessarily holding to a belief that he deserves special treatment.

For example there are examples of athletes, entertainers, business leaders who are truly elite within their chosen profession in that they stand head and shoulders above their contemporaries, and yet they remain as humble and unassuming as the guy next door. At the same time there are other examples of the same type folks who believe that their elite status entitles them to special treatment not afforded others and who demand that special treatment solely because of their elite status.

An example might be Alex Rodriguiz who is reported to have demanded that he be allowed to fly alone to road games rather than with his teammates on the team flight. Why? Because he is A-Rod.

Cruiser


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

Terpoxon said:


> I think when people use the term "elitist" in a pejorative sense they are referring to an attitude. That is, you aren't an elitist for wearing a Kiton suit, but you are an elitist if you think doing so makes you a "better" person than someone who does not.


+1

The fact that I can now afford the occasional C&J shoe does not mean that I am a better person than I was when I couldn't. It only means one of two things:

1. I'm earning more, and can therefore spend more; or
2. I'm managing the same cash flow better, and am thus able to buy the occasional luxury good.

This brings me to my own point to add to this discussion . . . ownership of a pair of EGs or Lobbs, or a Kiton suit, does not always imply the wearer is well-off. I know a lot of people at work who dress expensively (not necessarily "well" IMO), but earn a lot less than I do.

Geoff


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## JSweeney (Jan 25, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> Choices , which only proves we are not a monolith. That is why some might buy a Lamborghini for image another because of performance.
> We are judged by how we dress.
> 
> John T. Malloy wrote a book addressing men's clothing which was number one and sold over a million copies. " Dress for Success "
> ...


It's like you're seeing all the words, but missing every point.
His experiences, while unscientific, speak from knowledge. Almost every counterpoint you've offered have been based soley from opinion and conjecture. If I were having to arbitrate a disagreement between individuals, one citing only anecdotal evidence, and one citing only opinion, I'm going to have to go with the anecdotal evidence every time... sure, it's the not best sort of evidence, but it is evidence nevertheless.

You keep coming back to the point of "We are judged by how we dress" as if it is the ONLY metric for judging the validity and importance of an individual. While it is important, there are so many, many other metrics that are more telling and better to know about individuals that how they dress.

You're actually harming your own arguments, as people have been conceeding that point to you for multiple pages. Yes, appearence is important, but it's hardly inexoribly linked to elitism... and rather answering that point, you keep running back, arguing the already conceeded point for the majority of a post, and then throw out a few new wild claims, and then try to use your support for the already conceeded point as support for this.

This is why most of the other posters are eating you alive, and beinging to wonder if they're just being trolled.
(Especially since this exact thread made it over to style forum, and people laughed it off as a simple way to get a spam advertisement past the filters... don't belive it? Go see for yourself- ).

Edit: Heh. Looks like the removed it, considering it spam/troll.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)




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## M6Classic (Feb 15, 2008)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> What color Porsche did Henry Ford drive?


Any color he wanted as long as it was black.

Buzz


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

SkySov said:


> You can't be serious right? In a thread mostly criticizing you for judging people by their wealth you throw out those three names? I am pretty much convinced now you are just a troll now. But what I think is I respect and give elite status to people for their ideas and actions, you obviously just care about people's money.


You have a right to your opinion. I respect your values but I don't have to agree with them.
Your values are yours not mine. 
Some of the members of this forums appear to have a problem with "respect ".

There is no post which I summitted where I judged anyone . I summitted a subject and 
the crazies went wild. It appears "some " of the members of this forum are incapable of 
respecting others opinions !


----------



## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

JSweeney said:


> It's like you're seeing all the words, but missing every point.
> His experiences, while unscientific, speak from knowledge. Almost every counterpoint you've offered have been based soley from opinion and conjecture. If I were having to arbitrate a disagreement between individuals, one citing only anecdotal evidence, and one citing only opinion, I'm going to have to go with the anecdotal evidence every time... sure, it's the not best sort of evidence, but it is evidence nevertheless.
> 
> You keep coming back to the point of "We are judged by how we dress" as if it is the ONLY metric for judging the validity and importance of an individual. While it is important, there are so many, many other metrics that are more telling and better to know about individuals that how they dress.
> ...


Read the book " Dress for success "and draw your own conclusions.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> What color Porsche did Henry Ford drive?


The Porsche company did not exist at the time Henry ford built the model "T"


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

SkySov said:


> You can't be serious right? In a thread mostly criticizing you for judging people by their wealth you throw out those three names? I am pretty much convinced now you are just a troll now. But what I think is I respect and give elite status to people for their ideas and actions, you obviously just care about people's money.


I have not judged anyone sir, please read.


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## Victor123 (Jun 18, 2008)

Terpoxon said:


> I think when people use the term "elitist" in a pejorative sense they are referring to an attitude. That is, you aren't an elitist for wearing a Kiton suit, but you are an elitist if you think doing so makes you a "better" person than someone who does not.


I think you hit the nail on the head.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> The Porsche company did not exist at the time Henry ford built the model "T"


Ford died in '47. The only Porsche available then was the 64. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_64


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> The Porsche company did not exist at the time Henry ford built the model "T"


You might want to use that dictionary of yours to look up the terms "humor," "sarcasm" and "irony".

Also, you might want to do a little reading on Ford and Rockefeller. Ford would, by modern standards at least, be considered a racist and anti-Semite. Rockefeller almost certainly had some of his competitors murdered. But, hey, at least they were well dressed.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Not sure, money or credit equals rich. Many middle class folks can buy(not afford), Porsches, Kiton and Brioni. And some folk just have money and no influence, no socioeconomic prestige or power.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

silverporsche said:


> There is no post which I summitted where I judged anyone . I summitted a subject and
> the crazies went wild. It appears "some " of the members of this forum are incapable of
> respecting others opinions !


Your spelling skills place you at a level below elite.

Are you by any chance related to Joey Porsche?


----------



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

SkySov said:


> And then ask: Who are some universally respected people in our world? Those who many people consider truly elite? Like Jesus, Ghandi, or Martin Luther King Jr.? And what did they wear?





silverporsche said:


> How would the person listed above compare to Henry Ford , John Rockeffer , or J.P.Morgan.
> I would think those gentleman would be considered truly elite.
> What would you think ?


Jesus vs. Rockefeller? Hmmm... tough call. 



Aaron in Allentown said:


> I think that you are shallow and of marginal intelligence.
> 
> Either that, or you are a troll who is imitating someone who is shallow and of marginal intelligence.


I vote for the latter



silverporsche said:


> We are judged by how we dress.


For your sake, I hope people only judge you by how you're dressed.


----------



## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Terpoxon said:


> You might want to use that dictionary of yours to look up the terms "humor," "sarcasm" and "irony".
> 
> Also, you might want to do a little reading on Ford and Rockefeller. Ford would, by modern standards at least, be considered a racist and anti-Semite. Rockefeller almost certainly had some of his competitors murdered. But, hey, at least they were well dressed.


There are many who admired Rockefeller , J.P Morgan and Henry Ford. There are those that did not admire , King and Ghandi , both were assassinated. I would think that there are a large number of people in the world who are not followers of Jesus .

There is no questioning the fact that Ford , Rockefeller and J.P. Morgan had an effect on our lives today so did Jesus , King and Ghandi.

Standards have changed, and will continue to change. We all have a right to our opinions when judging history.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

omairp said:


> Jesus vs. Rockefeller? Hmmm... tough call.
> 
> I vote for the latter
> 
> For your sake, I hope people only judge you by how you're dressed.


How people judge me sir, is none of your business since we don't know each other and live in different countries. My only interest in your response is the subject " Is wearing a Kiton suit elitist "
I have taken the time to respond to your post.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Steve Smith said:


> Your spelling skills place you at a level below elite.
> 
> Are you by any chance related to Joey Porsche?


I use spell check sir, No I am not aware of Joey Porsche. Now back to the subject.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

omairp said:


> Jesus vs. Rockefeller? Hmmm... tough call.
> 
> I vote for the latter
> 
> For your sake, I hope people only judge you by how you're dressed.


No, he doesn't hope people judge him only for his clothes, he wants people to notice his Porsche.

This thread isn't about him - his ego has taken on a life of its own.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> Not sure, money or credit equals rich. Many middle class folks can buy(not afford), Porsches, Kiton and Brioni. And some folk just have money and no influence, no socioeconomic prestige or power.


One can be an elitist and not wear expensive clothing . This is a men's clothing site , the subject is men's clothing. There is the educated elite , social elite , political elite , moral elite , religious elite , etc. the list is endless.

The subject is about men's clothing elite . Not about money , power or socioeconomics 
unless as in your post you wish to include them.

Elitism whether about men's clothing , education , power etc. is divisive , it suggest differences in class or that perception. In my opinion many are angered by the mention of 
anything indicating class. But class does exist as well as elitism.

One does not have to be wealthy to be elitist. The musical " My Fair lady" pointed that out.
A very successful Broadway musical. 
I was an audiophile and there was many owners of high end audio equipment who were elitist. Are those who joins private clubs , unions, associations etc. elitist after all they exclude others ? Sometimes based on wealth , education , skill , or social class.
A counterpoint.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> My only interest in your response is the subject " Is wearing a Kiton suit elitist "


And the answer is clearly "no" as many have said. I still think you are confusing the word "elitist" with the word "elite". They aren't the same thing. A person's actions might make him elite, such as being among the best in his chosen field, but not elitist. What makes someone an elitist is how they expect others to respond to who they are or what they do. Do you see the difference?

With regard to a Kiton suit, simply wearing a suit does not make one elitist. If you are in a room filled with suit wearing men your suit might well be an elite suit in the group, or you could be said to be elite with regard to being the best dressed in the group; but you would only be an elitist if you were of the opinion that because of that suit you were in some way better than the others or superior to them and as a result of that superiority, be it real or perceived, you expected them to treat you differently than the others. That would be elitist.

Cruiser


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> And the answer is clearly "no" as many have said. I still think you are confusing the word "elitist" with the word "elite". They aren't the same thing. A person's actions might make him elite, such as being among the best in his chosen field, but not elitist. What makes someone an elitist is how they expect others to respond to who they are or what they do. Do you see the difference?
> 
> With regard to a Kiton suit, simply wearing a suit does not make one elitist. If you are in a room filled with suit wearing men your suit might well be an elite suit in the group, or you could be said to be elite with regard to being the best dressed in the group; but you would only be an elitist if you were of the opinion that because of that suit you were in some way better than the others or superior to them and as a result of that superiority, be it real or perceived, you expected them to treat you differently than the others. That would be elitist.
> 
> Cruiser


The key word used in your post is " better " The motion picture " Wall street " is many times referred to on this site. In the movie there was a scene in which Gordon Gekko gave Charlie Sheen his card with his tailors name and told him to buy some clothing , he should not come into the club " 21 " dressed like that.

What did that action by Gekko mean ? Would wearing a more expensive suit to lunch be elitist ? make one feel "better" than others ? Does a graduate of Harvard law school feel he is "better" than other lawyers ? Does a graduate of West Point consider himself "better" 
than other army officers ? Some do some don't.

I am sure one is treated " better" or different if one is a West Point graduate or Harvard graduate. In the movie Mr. Sheen was also expected to change addresses and select a different girl. Why ? Mr. Gekko also in the film pointed out his art and firearms.
Was Gordon Gekko an elitist , or did he think he was "better" 
We have opinions but we don't know, that is why the question is asked.
To solicit opinions on dress and why many of us buy expensive men's clothing.
are we elitist? , are we "better" ?. I am sure there are many other reasons.

You expressed your opinion on the subject. An excellent one.


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## dbgrate (Dec 4, 2006)

It is not the WEARING of the suit...it is your REACTION to the wearing that can be elitist...does it suddenly puff you up with a heretofore largely absent (but truly fraudulent) sense of superiority ? Then,yes my friend,your REACTION is elitist and you are a delusional,shallow,sad and troubled being...seek professional help,unless,of course,you really,really love the illusion.


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## S.Otto (Aug 14, 2007)

SkySov said:


> ...Antenna ornaments are like pocket squares...


Would you mind if I use that line as my signature? It definitely tickled my funny bone.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

silverporsche said:


> One can be an elitist and not wear expensive clothing . This is a men's clothing site , the subject is men's clothing. There is the educated elite , social elite , political elite , moral elite , religious elite , etc. the list is endless.
> 
> The subject is about men's clothing elite . Not about money , power or socioeconomics
> unless as in your post you wish to include them.
> ...


I think you are referring to people with delusions of grandeur.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

S.Otto said:


> Would you mind if I use that line as my signature? It definitely tickled my funny bone.


:crazy: It's yours.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> I think you are referring to people with delusions of grandeur.


In the American presidential election , Senator Obama is accused of bring elitist. Senator
John Kerry American Democratic candidate was also accused of elitism as was Vice President Al Gore. Why ? Yet President Bush who is very rich avoided that image, how was he able to succeed ?

Elitism is a matter of personal interpretation. Presidents of the United States generally dress down because of that interpretation. Some even drink beer when running for office to prove they are so called down to earth and not elitist.

The responses to the question " Is wearing a Kiton suit considered elitist " proves that point. The response has sponsored name calling personal attacks etc.
I wonder could we have a Fred Astaire or Cary Grant today ?
Certainly the image of the motion picture series James Bond is changing .
Very interesting.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Elitism is a matter of personal interpretation.


Only if you are in the habit of making up your own definitions of words, ie. Humpty Dumpty in "_Through the Looking Glass_."

_"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."_

_"The question is," said Alice "whether you can make words mean so many different things."_

_"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."_

Being elitist is not determined by how you dress or what you wear. It's an attitude. You can wear Kiton and drive Maserati, and not be an elitist; and you can wear Men's Wearhouse and drive a Toyota Tercel, and be elitist. It's all about your expectations of others to you and your perceived status.

Cruiser


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> Only if you are in the habit of making up your own definitions of words, ie. Humpty Dumpty in "_Through the Looking Glass_."
> 
> _"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."_
> 
> ...


I agree. But there are those that may disagree. Isn't this a wonderful country ?


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

I don't think that anyone in the last 150 postings has disagreed. I think the general consensus is that clothes do not make an elitist, attitude does. You seem to be the only one missing that point.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Feeling elitist, that you are better than others, helps a person build high self confidence and transform it into high net worth. If a Kiton suit helps you with that, thats great for you and for Kiton.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Bogdanoff said:


> Feeling elitist, that you are better than others, helps a person build high self confidence and transform it into high net worth.


Would some of you please take a minute and read the definition of the word "elitist".

The simple act of thinking that you are better than others, however unseemly that might be, does not make one elitist. You are elitist when you believe that this perceived superiority, whether real or imagined, entitles you to special treatment and favors not granted to others.

Cruiser


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## dbgrate (Dec 4, 2006)

Bog..a recommendation for self-delusion?..go ahead,lie to yourself,it'll be good for you in the long run...you're kidding,right?..as a great philosopher somewhere,sometime must have said , "You can ---- yourself,but you can't ---- me!".


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

Terpoxon said:


> I don't think that anyone in the last 150 postings has disagreed. I think the general consensus is that clothes do not make an elitist, attitude does. You seem to be the only one missing that point.


Certainly there is disagreement , your post is an example. Don't be afraid of disagreement, or counterpoints. 
In America critical thinking skills is declining . Only one out of seven high school graduates 
in America could find Iraq on the map. Surveys of high school seniors found that many 
thought Japan was an American ally in World War Two !

Most young men no longer remove their hats when entering a room. Few take the time to 
shine their shoes. Most men wear athletic shoes. As posted earlier American Presidential 
candidates remove their jackets when addressing a crowd. I don't remember 
Truman , Eisenhower , Roosevelt , Nixon , Reagan removing their Jackets while addressing
a crowd , if so very few times.

In my opinion being well dressed can be seen as elitist , simply because so few men today in America bother. In St.Louis for example , a city that once took pride in the number
of men's clothing stores , has seen the number drop from over twelve to three.

Only one store carries Burberry trench coats , and high end shoes will either be purchased on line or in Chicago. example Berluti , Edward Green , Ralph Lauren , Testoni ,etc.
Dressing down is in. I wonder what the voters would think of Senator Obama if he wore 
a silk square in his lapel pocket ?


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## dbgrate (Dec 4, 2006)

Truman,hmm.....wasn't he the guy that wore the powdered wig and the white stockings...no,J.Edgar wore the stockings...oh Gray VW,you got me all confused!


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Certainly there is disagreement , your post is an example. Don't be afraid of disagreement, or counterpoints.
> In America critical thinking skills is declining . Only one out of seven high school graduates
> 
> There is only disagreement because you continue to define "elitist" in a way that defies all common sense and dictionary usage. There is a difference between elite and elitist, as Cruiser has pointed out several times. Thinking that you are somehow a more fully developed person, thinking that you are somehow more deserving of special treatment, thinking that you are somehow a more intellectually evolved or morally superior person simply because you have more money or wear more expensive clothes than other people is elitist. Wearing more expensive clothes than others, taking care in how you dress, buying things because they are better quality is not elitist. It is the attitude, not the act. If you could understand that, you'd understand why there has been such a hostile attitude toward you.
> ...


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## CW Psmith (May 31, 2008)

dbgrate said:


> Truman,hmm.....wasn't he the guy that wore the powdered wig and the white stockings...no,J.Edgar wore the stockings...oh Gray VW,you got me all confused!


After reading all the posts and some of Silvers "fantastic" posts a quote from Blackadder III comes to mind:

*Blackadder*: Baldrick, have you no idea what "irony" is? *Baldrick*: Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Terpoxon said:


> Thinking that you are somehow a more fully developed person, thinking that you are somehow more deserving of special treatment, thinking that you are somehow a more intellectually evolved or morally superior person simply because you have more money or wear more expensive clothes than other people is elitist.


The point is, if you think so or don't think so, it doesn't matter, wearing certain clothes *does in fact* give you special treatment, and others will assume that you are deserving, morally or otherwise.

So, if people do this anyways, why do you think thinking that they should do this is wrong?


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

Wealth, and by extension clothing, are superficial things. A well dressed child molester is still a child molester. As has been pointed out many wealthy people choose not to spend money on clothing, houses or cars. Many people who don't have a great deal of money choose to spend it on overtly expensive items in order to portray themselves in a certain way.

Basically, I have always believed that a person's intelligence, beliefs, moral code and general attitude and treatment of others is a better way of determining what sort of person they are than what brands of clothing they wear. Call me kooky. 

In the end, a well dressed jerk is not a gentleman. If you and Silverporsche think that buying a $4000 suit or an $80,000 car make you more deserving of the air we breathe than a guy who wears jeans and a T-shirt and drives a Ford Festiva, go ahead. I just think that using clothing, cars or wealth as a basis for judging someone is shallow and superficial, but I am sure that there are many that do it.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Bogdanoff said:


> The point is, if you think so or don't think so, it doesn't matter, wearing certain clothes *does in fact* give you special treatment, and others will assume that you are deserving, morally or otherwise.


OK, but that still is not "elitist". To be elitist is not to be given special favors because others simply choose to do so, it is to *EXPECT* or *DEMAND* special favors because of some *SELF* *PERCEIVED* superiority, regardless of what it might be. Please understand the distinction.

For example, let's say I'm a famous movie star and as I walk down the hallway of a public building everyone stands back and clears the passageway for me because of my fame. That doesn't make me elitist. I have no control over their actions.

On the other hand if I demand that the passageway be cleared before I walk down it so I won't have to contend with walking through a crowd, then I am exhibiting elitist behavior.

In either scenario I am going to walk down a cleared out passageway, but in one instance it is the voluntary doing of others while in the latter it is happening because I demand it. After all, I'm a movie star and they are ordinary people.

Do you see the difference? Whether I'm elitist or not is based upon what I demand, not what other's do; even when the end result is the same. I'm not sure why this is proving such a difficult concept for some to grasp.

Cruiser


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## dbgrate (Dec 4, 2006)

Bog....Assuming the long time consensus of the forum members seems to suggest that the VAST majority of the populace,maybe 90+%,don't notice or care about the difference between Kiton(again,98% never heard of it) and Men's Wearhouse or whatever,you'll be a long,long time waiting for"special" treatment because you've draped your special self in Kiton. All dressed up and nobody gives a damn.Going to the rare location where someone will notice? Well,you'll be one of many..just another guy in an expensive suit.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> ...Do you see the difference? Whether I'm elitist or not is based upon what I demand, not what other's do; even when the end result is the same. I'm not sure why this is proving such a difficult concept for some to grasp.
> 
> Cruiser


It's quite simple actually. It would seem that for some in these parts, argument/debate has become the objective, rather than being just the process (or road that is talked!). Your explanation provides an excellent differentiation, BTW...wonder who won't get the point? Hmmm!


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## playdohh22 (Dec 4, 2007)

silverporsche- Did you mistakenly post this on authenticforum.com? Because you seem to be getting 10x more replies on here. :icon_smile:


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

I'm going to post this on the ornamental penmanship board. I get accused of being an eletist just because of my penmanship.

I think its society's misunderstanding of the term in the first place that causes the trouble. In my town, if you're good at something, except sports, or you're an expert in certain matters, or you can express yourself well you're an "eletist."


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

dbgrate said:


> Bog..a recommendation for self-delusion?..go ahead,lie to yourself,it'll be good for you in the long run...you're kidding,right?..as a great philosopher somewhere,sometime must have said , "You can ---- yourself,but you can't ---- me!".


Well, no. Wearing certain clothes and expecting others to react in certain ways, has been entirely successful. What more could one ask for?


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## dbgrate (Dec 4, 2006)

Perhaps the removal of the burden of self-centeredness?


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

Wearing a Kiton suit isn't elitist. Wearing a Kiton suit and snickering at people who _aren't_ wearing a Kiton suit is elitist. It's the _snickering _- 
not the suit.


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## Beefeater (Jun 2, 2007)

This is a long thread and the most useful thing that came out of it was the term "asshat."


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^ Asshat? Now there's a visualization that can stick with you!


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

JerseyJohn said:


> Wearing a Kiton suit isn't elitist. Wearing a Kiton suit and snickering at people who _aren't_ wearing a Kiton suit is elitist. It's the _snickering _-
> not the suit.


And... what is wrong with that? Putting pressure on others to conform to a higher standard. This is a good thing. Raises standards. Is good for the economy, as more people buy better clothes.

So go ahead. Snicker away. A Kiton suit for every man.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Beefeater said:


> This is a long thread and the most useful thing that came out of it was the term "asshat."





eagle2250 said:


> ^ Asshat? Now there's a visualization that can stick with you!


Victory for me - I'm most useful! :icon_smile_big:



Bogdanoff said:


> And... what is wrong with that? Putting pressure on others to conform to a higher standard. This is a good thing. Raises standards. Is good for the economy, as more people buy better clothes.
> 
> So go ahead. Snicker away. A Kiton suit for every man.


There is no way Kiton will ever be on every man. Part of the reason a Kiton suit is so much is because they are so limited. Part of your money goes to buying a garment that you won't see on every other guy at your meeting/whatever. If everyone started buying Kiton, there would be a new company that would be more exclusive.

Besides wouldn't buying a made to measure suit that fits better for less be a smarter choice?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Interesting thread. Couple of comments:

SilverPorsche: Do you yet have a publication date for the _SilverPorsche Dictionary_? Put me down for at least one copy. This thread might have made sense had I one.

SkyWhatever: About that Thesaurus: For _virgin_, try "unsullied". For _ass_, you might consider "posterior". For _pubic_, might I suggest "nether regions"?

All: To accept others' benchmarks is to acquiesce. If someone were truly elitist, they would not be wearing Kiton. They would be wearing a _quality_ suit.


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