# The tide turns



## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)




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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

It was inevitable. Perhaps in a few years we can go back to buying suits off the rack again.


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## roman totale XVII (Sep 18, 2009)

Still dual vented, but a good move overall. To be honest, if I was 20 years younger and 20 lbs lighter I'd have no qualms shopping at J Crew.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

The lapels still look weird somehow, too straight or something. But this is definitely a very good thing. I need to check 'em out.


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## Mox (May 30, 2012)

Too flat, I think. They look pressed almost to a crease to me.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

The wider leg is also sneaking in. Just barely detectable among the din of cotton stretching over calves.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm not really sure what we're supposed to be looking at. It looks like a 3/2 with decent shoulders. The lapels aren't MadMen narrow but they aren't wide either; they're just what I would consider normal.


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## leisureclass (Jan 31, 2011)

^Which is rare with J. Crew because they have been doing nothing but crazy narrow Mad Men lapels for years


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

It is surprising to see JCrew with a suit like this one. I haven't liked pretty much any of their menswear in years, but I like this. It looks almost identical to an old made in the USA, grey flannel Polo suit that I have and have been wearing throughout all of the narrow lapel craziness (maybe they did a copy?).


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

leisureclass said:


> ^Which is rare with J. Crew because they have been doing nothing but crazy narrow Mad Men lapels for years


Thanks. That explains it. I don't mind this suit, but feel like a 3/2 from Crew makes a mockery of the real thing.



ChicagoTrad said:


> It is surprising to see JCrew with a suit like this one. I haven't liked pretty much any of their menswear in years, but I like this. It looks almost identical to an old made in the USA, grey flannel Polo suit that I have and have been wearing throughout all of the narrow lapel craziness (maybe they did a copy?).


That's helpful. I think I like it too, but would want to see the shoulders in person before committing to it.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

I like the suit. It's a sight for sore eyes. 

When my girlfriend and I shop in there she always wants me to try on the jackets. I explain to her that they're to trendy and our money would be better spent elsewhere. 

I do have a moon grey tweed with the skinnier lapel that I got as a gift and wear by request. 

For a Chinese made jacket I find the quality to be passable. Not ideal but....


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that a true sack suit can be puchased for the price of J. Crew that suit.


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

For me, the J Crew suit in itself is not interesting.

Rather it is interesting that a standard bearer of "fashion" might be moving away from the skinny lapel and its attendant silhouette.

Thus my reference to the tide turning. We shall see.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

In general I like all this, but I remain enormously skeptical of J. Crew's suits and jackets.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

P Hudson said:


> I don't mind this suit, but feel like a 3/2 from Crew makes a mockery of the real thing.


Huh? Lots of whining about how hard it is to find 3/2 suits/jackets, and when a major retailer comes out with one it's a "mockery"? Unfriggingbelievable. :icon_headagainstwal


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

if its darted it doesn't count.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

smmrfld said:


> Huh? Lots of whining about how hard it is to find 3/2 suits/jackets, and when a major retailer comes out with one it's a "mockery"? Unfriggingbelievable. :icon_headagainstwal


Does it seem "authentic" to you? It is nipped at the waist in such a way that it doesn't look like a sack to me. Just finding an unused button and buttonhole on the lapel isn't really the goal of those who engage in "lots of whining". Any tailor can add that to any jacket or suit, but that IMO would make a mockery of said jacket.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

P Hudson said:


> Does it seem "authentic" to you? It is nipped at the waist in such a way that it doesn't look like a sack to me. Just finding an unused button and buttonhole on the lapel isn't really the goal of those who engage in "lots of whining". Any tailor can add that to any jacket or suit, but that IMO would make a mockery of said jacket.


Heavy Tweed Jacket blog has a 1980s BB catalog up. There is a nice cord jacket with darts and I believe I saw a tweed as well. He has also posted a few older Press and Cable Car catalogs. Both of which have jackets with darts and Press even has a few double breasted blazers.

The most popular jacket may have been a natural shouldered 3/2 roll, single hook vent, pick stitched, etc. but there were other cuts available. And calling these jackets a mockery is a bit on the extreme side which discounts actual historical fact.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

The suit is better than most, but dude still needs a shave!!


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

This forum seldom concerns itself with actual historical fact.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Trip English said:


> This forum seldom concerns itself with actual historical fact.


It should. Especially how abused/confused the definition has become. How can you say you follow a traditional sense of style when that definition is open to interpretation and subject to opinion and constant change?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

If there's one thread of confusion that I've seen running through this forum over the years it's the conflation of "classic" and "trad."

The vast majority of garments that have existed to date are, in some way, "Classic." Trad refers to a narrow window of mens style stemming largely from the dress on university campuses. To the untrained eye it's easy to see a textbook "Trad" outfit with all of the necessary details intact as well as an apocryphal outfit replete with darts and shaping and see them both as "Classic" and be more or less correct.

It's an easy mistake to make, I suppose. The term Trad was really coined here and finds the most usage here. Being an abbreviation of a very generic term "traditional" you can see how one would mistakenly to apply the term to a wider variety of clothing than is appropriate.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I would edit the above fine explanation to read "dress on _a handful of_ university campuses _attended by the well-off._" Otherwise, spot on!


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## dcjacobson (Jun 25, 2007)

Any day now J. Crew will be featuring _pleated_ pants. And that means the youngsters won't be pointing their fingers at me and laughing. I can hardly wait!


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Eric W S said:


> The most popular jacket may have been a natural shouldered 3/2 roll, single hook vent, pick stitched, etc. but there were other cuts available. And calling these jackets a mockery is a bit on the extreme side which discounts actual historical fact.


I take your point, and I'm not saying that TNSIL doesn't take in a range of jackets (and furthermore, a lot of people on Ivy League campuses didn't worry about TNSIL anyway). What I mean is that you can pay $15 to have a spare buttonhole added to any jacket. That doesn't IMO necessarily make it trad. As far as I can see (with my declining eyesight), J Crew has simply cut a hole and sewn a button. As I also said above, it doesn't look too bad to me, but I reserve judgment until I actually see one.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

BiffBiffster said:


> For me, the J Crew suit in itself is not interesting.
> 
> Rather it is interesting that a standard bearer of "fashion" might be moving away from the skinny lapel and its attendant silhouette.
> 
> Thus my reference to the tide turning. We shall see.


Great observation, Biff. I'll be watching to see the next provider move in this direction. I'm somewhat surprised that they didn't milk the skinny look for a bit longer as I rarely even see them in the midwest yet.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Talk about the tide turning...

I've been seeing hints and implications that this was coming, but Rugby has quietly launched a wide leg chino. Here's a basic shot. I'm going to do a bit of a write-up on my wordpress blog. Possibly tonight. There will be more pics.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

The lapel and 3/2 roll look nice. They were already selling a 3/2 oxford cloth sport coat. It was listed as having a two button closure, but I wrote J. Crew to correct them. They thanked me for my help, but so far nothing has been done. They correctly list the suit in the blog post as having three buttons though.

https://www.jcrew.com/mens_category...e+matchallany~~~~~oxford sport coat/85804.jsp

I bet you guys anything that J. Crew suit was pinned at the back. Rarely does anything look as tight fitting in person as it does on a website. For instance, the "tight suits" Banana Republic was accused of selling in another thread are not really all that nipped in the waist or so fitted in the sleeves and legs that they are uncomfortable. (Also note that the security tag is pulling up one side, it did not splay open that much beneath the top button.)










If high (or rather, natural) rise comes back in fashion, I'll be glad. Even if the legs are a little wide for my tastes, I might taper 'em down.

Thanks for the writeup, Trip. I might consider those.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Not only do they lack a center vent (a deal breaker for me), but the suit costs about $1100 for the Australian consumer. I think I can do better for that price.


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

P Hudson said:


> Not only do they lack a center vent (a deal breaker for me), but the suit costs about $1100 for the Australian consumer. I think I can do better for that price.


Again, the J Crew suit itself isn't interesting. What's interesting is that the tide might be beginning to turn.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I see nothing wrong with side vents.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Jovan said:


> I see nothing wrong with side vents.


I see nothing wrong with jean shorts and mullets--except that I don't like them. That's all I was saying.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I wonder why there is so much anti side vent sentiment here though.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Jovan said:


> I wonder why there is so much anti side vent sentiment here though.


It seems a superior construction, side vents. Also slightly more expensive to make, as I understand it.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I prefer them, but have no prejudice against centre vents either.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

leisureclass said:


> Which is rare with J. Crew because they have been doing nothing but crazy narrow Mad Men lapels for years


I always get a laugh about announcements like this from companies. They go to an extreme, and then think that a slightly less extreme position is a revolution. It's either cynical marketing positioning, or they drink their own kool aid. The suit linked in the original post looks very nice, though.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

If one spends spends a lot of time on horseback, center vents are essential. For those of more plebeian, automotive tastes, side vents make much better sense. Center vents are, therefore, far more UU. :rolleyes2:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Doctor Damage: As far as I can see, they didn't make a huge announcement about changes, just quietly introduced some new suits and sport coats, same as Rugby introduced a fuller, higher rise chino without any hubbub. Whatever, people can laugh at my 2.75" lapels if they want in a few years.

Oldsarge: See, I've never really gotten this. How is a centre vent any better than side vents for horseback? Thinking in logical terms, it seems that both would work just as well for the purpose. Also, I don't know what UU is.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

UU = Upper Upper Class. Plutocrats and international equestrians.

I'm sure it made a much greater difference with frock coats. A center vent hangs down better on each side of the horse whereas side vents do better in chairs (or on bar stools!).


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

But in terms of modern coats, the side vents create a flap that sits on top of the horse.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

Might be worth noting, but I have an old suit from late 60s Brooks Brothers university shop that looks very similar to that J.Crew picture. Much more like that than any thin labeled Mad Men thing.
Aside from the normal trad details, they both have low gorges and medium sized lapels. The J. Crew suit has a much lower button point, which I like a lot.

I'm just very wary of J.Crew, because without exception, every jacket of theirs I've worn has looked awkward and been weirdly constructed. 




As far as khakis are concerned, I dislike skinny pairs but I'm not looking forward to a "wide leg" either.

I just want something well-fitting and moderate. I'm a tall, thin guy so I tend to err on the slim side.
If M2s fit me like they do some members here I'd wear them.
If Rugby's univeristy chinos fit like they do on some guys (thinner than me) I'd wear them.
If M3s weren't such a "tight seat/low rise/wide at the ankle" frankenstein I'd probably wear them.
If J. Crew wasn't such junk I'd etc etc.

My idea pair would be J.Crew's fit, Polo's fabric, Bill's construction.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Side vents are simply more flattering to a mans appearance. In the same way that we, most of us, loathe short jackets for that which is revealed and which should more properly be concealed, then side vents are surely optimal?


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Shaver said:


> Side vents are simply more flattering to a mans appearance. In the same way that we, most of us, loathe short jackets for that which is revealed and which should more properly be concealed, then side vents are surely optimal?


Really? No. Keep the dual exhaust across the pond.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Oldsarge said:


> I would edit the above fine explanation to read "dress on _a handful of_ university campuses _attended by the well-off._" Otherwise, spot on!


By late 50s/early 60s, Ivy League, as trad was called, had migrated to state schools and just about all colleges, far from the actual Ivy League and far beyond "a handful." We wore it in my Florida public high school. Details that met and exceeded the demands of the purists on this forum. Like everything American, trad became democratic.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

My stepfather has commented a number of times about how I dress the way he did in high school and college. He was definitely no Ivy Leaguer.



Eric W S said:


> Really? No. Keep the dual exhaust across the pond.


Such hate! :icon_smile_big:


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Jovan said:


> My stepfather has commented a number of times about how I dress the way he did in high school and college. He was definitely no Ivy Leaguer.
> 
> Such hate! :icon_smile_big:


Hate? No. I have had side vented suits earlier in my career before Business Casual emerged. It lends itself to more of a continental look as opposed to the traditional look. I think a select few pieces look better with a more Anglo cut - Hacking jackets for instance and some game keepers. Besides, you yourself said it best - FIT determines what looks the best not what looks good on a horse or which and how many times a jacket is vented...


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Jovan said:


> I wonder why there is so much anti side vent sentiment here though.


The preception (or misconception) that the single breasted, hook vented, pick stitched odd jacket as the epitome of trad ideal...


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Eric W S said:


> Really? No. Keep the dual exhaust across the pond.


It is in my experience a ladies jacket which might reveal her posterier. Ladies jackets are shorter cut and single vented, presumably, to deliberately achieve this effect? 
You may of course wear ladies clothes at your preference it is no business of mine to complain. :devil:

EDIT: oh chaps I am so very sorry. I have just realised that this is the Trad forum, do excuse me I shouldn't be posting here. My sincere apologies to all.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Shaver said:


> It is in my experience a ladies jacket which might reveal her posterier. Ladies jackets are shorter cut and single vented, presumably, to deliberately achieve this effect?
> You may of course wear ladies clothes at your preference it is no business of mine to complain. :devil:
> 
> EDIT: oh chaps I am so very sorry. I have just realised that this is the Trad forum, do excuse me I shouldn't be posting here. My sincere apologies to all.


No ladies jackets for me. I like a nice jacket that properly fits over my somewhat shrinking rear ...

You can complain freely about any preference to public wearing of women's clothing here. No pics though, please.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Eric W S said:


> No ladies jackets for me. I like a nice jacket that properly fits over my somewhat shrinking rear ...
> 
> You can complain freely about any preference to public wearing of women's clothing here. No pics though, please.


Thanks Eric W S for being such a good sport. I avoid posting in the Trad forum because, frankly, I would have no idea what I was talking about.

This last sentence, of course, is an opportunity on a silver platter for any member who would like to suggest that I have no idea what I am talking about _whatever_ the forum I post to.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

efdll said:


> By late 50s/early 60s, Ivy League, as trad was called, had migrated to state schools and just about all colleges, far from the actual Ivy League and far beyond "a handful." We wore it in my Florida public high school. Details that met and exceeded the demands of the purists on this forum. Like everything American, trad became democratic.





Jovan said:


> My stepfather has commented a number of times about how I dress the way he did in high school and college. He was definitely no Ivy Leaguer.


Really? I was in a state university in the 60's and we most assuredly did _not. _I do recall a young high school math teacher, fresh out of Dartmouth, trying to convince the boys in his Algebra II class that Pendleton's and jeans were not to be worn at college. We ignored him and went on to accredited universities in the same jeans, tee-shirts and Pendletons we'd been wearing for years. Must be the geographical difference. No doubt things were different on the other side of the Rockies . . .


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