# Series produced German cars -1,2,3 ranking.



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I can hear you all thinking about the Germans - 

POINTS OF ORDER: 

1. Although Mini, Bentley and Rolls Royce are now all German owned, they are still British cars.
2. Ford Germany has been a fully owned, developed and built German car for many decades.
3. Only cars that are still in production, so sadly, no Bitter.
4. Skoda, although part of VAG is not a German car.

So: 

1, BMW, Porsche

2, Audi, VW, Mercedes

3, Ford, Opel


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

What Fords are made in Germany? Is it essentially the same as the US line-up?

I generally agree with your rankings. Would you include Bugatti with VW? I believe that they own the brand. For some reason the Veyron has never appealed to me, despite its jaw-dropping stats. 

I enjoy the 911 - I am intrigued by the pursuit of trying to perfect a design that is fundamentally flawed in its layout. However, I find Porsche a bit less interesting as a brand since they have expanded into so many different classes of vehicles. 

I believe that BMW and Honda are overall the most impressive car builders in the world. One of the top cars on my wishlist is the McLaren F1, which uses a BMW engine.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

pleasehelp said:


> What Fords are made in Germany? Is it essentially the same as the US line-up?


Oh my worthy worthington, no not at all dear boy. Ford Germany has been its own entity with its own model programme since 1926. Ford GB ditto but since 1911.

Bugatti while a mix of German,French and Italian is not currently AFAIK a series production car. Isn't the Veyron only made to order?


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Looking at the Ford Motor Company annual report, it looks like Ford Germany (Ford-Werk GmbH) is a Ford Motor Company subsidiary. I wouldn't be shocked to hear that there is some percentage of local ownership, but this entity looks to be part of US parent group. Are you referring to a separate manufacturer?

I don't know much about buying a Veyron or Veyron production, but I believe that it qualifies as a series production car - I suspect that they ran off enough of them to make this qualification in order to find their way into the record books.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

pleasehelp said:


> Looking at the Ford Motor Company annual report, it looks like Ford Germany (Ford-Werk GmbH) is a Ford Motor Company subsidiary. I wouldn't be shocked to hear that there is some percentage of local ownership, but this entity looks to be part of US parent group. Are you referring to a separate manufacturer?


Not really sure what point you're trying to make but I'll guess that you're saying Ford is American because that's where it started & that's where the parent company is,well of course that's correct, and if the Euro Fords were the same as US Fords I'd totally agree.

But unlike the UK made Nissans that are exactly the same as the Japanese made Nissans, German and UK Fords are designed and built in Germany and the UK for the European market, there isn't a single model in the UK or German Ford range that is the same as the US Ford range.

NB: nowadays the German and UK Fords are the same, as are the Vauxhall and Opel ranges.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> But unlike the UK made Nissans that are exactly the same as the Japanese made Nissans, German and UK Fords are designed and built in Germany and the UK for the European market, there isn't a single model in the UK or German Ford range that is the same as the US Ford range.


Actually, I believe the European designed and built Focus and Fiesta are now on sale in the USA.... Sorta confirming and contradicting you at the same time.... how Irish! 

I would also agree with your rankings above!


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

In high school I owned an Audi S4 (1997) and in college a BMW 330i (2004) and have driven several VW's, Mercedes, and Porsches owned either by friends or my parents. BMW is hands down the winner in my eyes. The lady friend received a 2010 (brand new, then) 335i x-drive as a combination college graduation/white coat ceremony gift. It provides me a great deal of petroleum-based catharsis given that when I graduated college, I bought a Prius.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Not really sure what point you're trying to make but I'll guess that you're saying Ford is American because that's where it started & that's where the parent company is,well of course that's correct, and if the Euro Fords were the same as US Fords I'd totally agree.
> 
> But unlike the UK made Nissans that are exactly the same as the Japanese made Nissans, German and UK Fords are designed and built in Germany and the UK for the European market, there isn't a single model in the UK or German Ford range that is the same as the US Ford range.
> 
> NB: nowadays the German and UK Fords are the same, as are the Vauxhall and Opel ranges.


Not trying to make a point so much as I'm trying to understand your view that Ford Germany should be viewed as a German car. It doesn't really matter, but I found it an interesting assertion and I am completely ignorant as to Fords in Germany. From the Ford Germany website it looks like there are several models that are similar to the US models.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

I know that at one time, when you went to Europe, the Fords you'd see looked entirely different from US cars. Actually, they looked a lot like the US cars did a few years later. What the situation is now, I don't know.

It's a bit tricky, assigning a car maker (or, really, any company) to a country nowadays.

Are Volvos Swedish cars? Are the 2009 models American and the current ones Chinese?
Chryslers: were they American, then German, then American again, then Italian?
Going the other way: are some Toyotas and Nissan American cars?
For that matter (going back to the original post), I suspect Minis and Rolls are about as German as German Fords are American.

Of course, a public company headquartered somewhere probably has shareholders who live all sorts of places, executives who grew up in a number of countries, etc.


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## IvanD (Jan 5, 2012)

Could I be so bold as add Alpina to the list?
Yes, they are essentially BMW's underneath, but Alpina is a registered car manufacturer.
BMW's build quality and Alpina's understated luxury and exclusivety have to make them some of the most desireable cars about.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Tilton said:


> In high school I owned an Audi S4 (1997) and in college a BMW 330i (2004) and have driven several VW's, Mercedes, and Porsches owned either by friends or my parents. BMW is hands down the winner in my eyes. The lady friend received a 2010 (brand new, then) 335i x-drive as a combination college graduation/white coat ceremony gift. It provides me a great deal of petroleum-based catharsis given that when I graduated college, I bought a Prius.


Out of curiousity, why do you say that BMW is the hands down the winner? I think they build many very impressive well-rounded cars (in fact I think they are one of the best overall manufacturers in the world), but I do find cars a bit hard to rank (different cars do different things well), so I am curious as what leads you to declare them the clear winner.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

IvanD said:


> Could I be so bold as add Alpina to the list?
> Yes, they are essentially BMW's underneath, but Alpina is a registered car manufacturer.
> BMW's build quality and Alpina's understated luxury and exclusivety have to make them some of the most desireable cars about.


Do they run off enough cars to be considered series production cars? I forget the exact number required (and it might even change by different circuits' standards).


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Starch said:


> I know that at one time, when you went to Europe, the Fords you'd see looked entirely different from US cars. Actually, they looked a lot like the US cars did a few years later. What the situation is now, I don't know.
> 
> It's a bit tricky, assigning a car maker (or, really, any company) to a country nowadays.
> 
> ...


I think this is a good point. Certain cars are associated with certain countries for historical and/or marketing purposes, but even the components (and R&D) are often sourced globally.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Not really sure what point you're trying to make but I'll guess that you're saying Ford is American because that's where it started & that's where the parent company is,well of course that's correct, and if the Euro Fords were the same as US Fords I'd totally agree.
> 
> But unlike the UK made Nissans that are exactly the same as the Japanese made Nissans, German and UK Fords are designed and built in Germany and the UK for the European market, there isn't a single model in the UK or German Ford range that is the same as the US Ford range.
> 
> NB: nowadays the German and UK Fords are the same, as are the Vauxhall and Opel ranges.


I have to agree that all Fords are American, no matter where they are made. Ford of Germany and Ford in the UK have always been owned by Ford Motor Company. The German Fords look different from the American Fords because of the way that Ford Motor Company is operated. Ford's corporate structure between the parent and its subsidaries is very loose, and always has been. The executives in Detroit (Dearborn, MI) who run the company allow their executives at their foreign subsidaries full latitude to design, manufacture, and sell as they please, with approval from headquarters, of course. GM had the same corporate philosophy for years, until about the early 1990's when they began to standardize to save money. This explains why each subsidary produced different looking cars, whereas today there are many look alike cars, or badge engineering (same design, same underneath, different chrome, and different nameplates for different divisions), as they call it. It also explains how Ford was able to rescue, and revive several foreign automakers (Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo, Aston Martin) that were almost bankrupt in the 1990's, and later sell them off as separate divisions, even though they did not do well financially by those purchases. When Ford purchased those automakers it was speculated in the auto world that they would soon look like and have the same workings as a Taurus, Ford's best selling family car in the US. It never happened because Ford management in Detroit allowed management at those new divisions to build new lines of models without interference, designs, or parts from Detroit. Contrast that to what GM did when they bought Saab. Instead of allowing the engineers in Trollhattan to design new Saab models, they used Chevrolet designs and parts to save money. As if that wasn't bad enough, the new Saab SUV was built on the same assembly line as the Chevy and Buick SUV's in Illinois. It even looks like the Chevy and Buick SUV's except for a few pieces of chrome and the Saab nameplate. This was one of the reasons why GM was never able to sell Saab when times got tough during their recent bankruptcy.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Well ,we'll have to agree to disagree then. British and German Fords have no connexion in design, build or use whatsoever with US Fords, they are Euro cars built for Europe, they are not American. We must differentiate between the company Ford and the actual cars. A German Ford, designed, built, sold and driven by a German in Germany is a German car. 

Would you claim then that Holden of Australia is American because of GM or German because of Opel or British because of Vauxhall? No, it's Australian.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

IvanD said:


> Could I be so bold as add Alpina to the list?


No, because they don't make cars. They started as a tuning and trim company, and that's what they still do, they tune and trim Beemers and put an Alpina badge on them. If we include Alpina we then have to include Maybach, AMG, Ghia, Bertone, Pininfarina, Cosworth, Cooper, Tom Walkinshaw Racing and so on.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Well ,we'll have to agree to disagree then. British and German Fords have no connexion in design, build or use whatsoever with US Fords, they are Euro cars built for Europe, they are not American. We must differentiate between the company Ford and the actual cars. A German Ford, designed, built, sold and driven by a German in Germany is a German car.
> 
> Would you claim then that Holden of Australia is American because of GM or German because of Opel or British because of Vauxhall? No, it's Australian.


I'm actually quite confused - are you speaking historically or currently? Looking at the model line-up in Germany, it looks quite similar to the line-up in other parts of the worlds (including the US). It would strike me as a very poor business plan for Ford to have separate r&d in Germany from the ROW. However, I confess to not knowing much about Ford. Speaking generally, sometimes car manufacturers use modified models for different markets (often based on similar platforms) or don't introduce certain models to certain markets (e.g., MB often does this), but using completely separate r&d doesn't make sense to me.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I drove the 2002 VW Passat Wagon V6 today. (Audi motor)

Still smokin' after 120k miles!!


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## IvanD (Jan 5, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> No, because they don't make cars. They started as a tuning and trim company, and that's what they still do, they tune and trim Beemers and put an Alpina badge on them. If we include Alpina we then have to include Maybach, AMG, Ghia, Bertone, Pininfarina, Cosworth, Cooper, Tom Walkinshaw Racing and so on.


Point taken, but are any of those actually recognised as an automobile manufacturer?
Alpina are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpina


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

IvanD said:


> Point taken, but are any of those actually recognised as an automobile manufacturer?
> Alpina are:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpina


Ok, let mev put it this way then. Show me an Alpina car that was built from scratch by Alpina and that doesn't look like a BMW.


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## IvanD (Jan 5, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Ok, let mev put it this way then. Show me an Alpina car that was built from scratch by Alpina and that doesn't look like a BMW.


I must confess, you have me there :icon_hailthee:, though one of these would still be on my shopping list, if I could ever find or afford one:

https://bmw-alpina-b10-biturbo.co.uk/information.php?s=History-&-Specifications&section=12


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Well ,we'll have to agree to disagree then. British and German Fords have no connexion in design, build or use whatsoever with US Fords, they are Euro cars built for Europe, they are not American. We must differentiate between the company Ford and the actual cars. A German Ford, designed, built, sold and driven by a German in Germany is a German car.
> 
> Would you claim then that Holden of Australia is American because of GM or German because of Opel or British because of Vauxhall? No, it's Australian.


Yes, we can agree to disagree, but there is not much we disagree on. I agree with you that the German Fords are German cars, that Opel is a German car, that Holden is an Australian car and that Vauxhall is a British car. My only point, which I think you agree with, is that all of those car companies are wholly owned subsidaries of American car companies and have been for decades. And the reason they don't look like American cars is because the way the auto companies run their subsidaries, as I explained above. The reason more and more American cars are looking like those foreign cars is because as the American manufacturers were hit by declining sales and finances because of foreign competition, they allied with their foreign subsidaries to produce designs that could be used both at home and abroad to save money. The Pontiac G series were built on designs from Holden of Australia because Pontiac was running out of money for new designs as GM desperately tried to save the division before filing bankruptcy a few years ago.

However, I disagree that Maybach is just a tuning and trim company. It is a separate car company wholly owned by Daimler Benz, established more than ten years ago to compete in the ultra premium luxury car class with Rolls Royce and Bentley.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

blue suede shoes said:


> Yes, we can agree to disagree, but there is not much we disagree on. I agree with you that the German Fords are German cars, that Opel is a German car, that Holden is an Australian car and that Vauxhall is a British car. My only point, which I think you agree with, is that all of those car companies are wholly owned subsidaries of American car companies and have been for decades. And the reason they don't look like American cars is because the way the auto companies run their subsidaries, as I explained above. The reason more and more American cars are looking like those foreign cars is because as the American manufacturers were hit by declining sales and finances because of foreign competition, they allied with their foreign subsidaries to produce designs that could be used both at home and abroad to save money. The Pontiac G series were built on designs from Holden of Australia because Pontiac was running out of money for new designs as GM desperately tried to save the division before filing bankruptcy a few years ago.
> 
> However, I disagree that Maybach is just a tuning and trim company. It is a separate car company wholly owned by Daimler Benz, established more than ten years ago to compete in the ultra premium luxury car class with Rolls Royce and Bentley.


Could you please point me to somewhere that shows this German line-up of Fords that is different than the rest of the international line-up? On their website, it looks like most of the models are essentially the same - I'm wondering if there is somethign I'm missing or if you are speaking from historical standpoint. I believe that one of the things Mulally said he would do for Ford would be to better use r&D accross platforms, so this may have changed in recent years.

Maybach was a separate car company many years ago that Daimler bought but allowed to go dormant for years. They revived it a while ago, but I believe they are terminating it again next year.

Frankly, I'm not sure it is relevant what country a car is associated with, but I do find the idea of a separate line-up from Ford in Germany to be interesting.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

No American Fords here

https://www.ford.de/Pkw-Modelle


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

The only American Fords that are the same as the UK and German are the Fiesta and Focus. The rest of the range is different. Although prior to recent years, the ranges were very different.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> The only American Fords that are the same as the UK and German are the Fiesta and Focus. The rest of the range is different. Although prior to recent years, the ranges were very different.


Maybe not the same models as those in the US, but that looks to me like it is generally the international line-up from Ford, which is built on standard shared platforms. For example, the Galaxy is built in Belgium, the Ka is built in many factories, the B Max is built in Romania, etc. It may be that there was a time when Ford Germany had a line-up of models specific to it, but it looks like the current line-up is shared across the Ford family.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Sorry, but this is getting really boring now.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

pleasehelp said:


> Out of curiousity, why do you say that BMW is the hands down the winner? I think they build many very impressive well-rounded cars (in fact I think they are one of the best overall manufacturers in the world), but I do find cars a bit hard to rank (different cars do different things well), so I am curious as what leads you to declare them the clear winner.


Total package consideration - how well it handles, how well everything works, how it is laid out, maintenance issues, how smooth the engine is, how smooth the transmission is (my BMW and Audi were manual, the lady's is auto), how durable items are (door handles, knobs, buttons, etc), how tight the suspension is (not just in firmness or softness of ride, but how it does what it is supposed to do with a minimum of necessary adjustments), price. While I am one of the youngest on the board, I have owned seven cars. I put 20k+ miles/year on most cars I've owned and with that amount of driving, one just sort of gets a sense for how well something works and how well it holds up.

tl/dr: price/quality/maintenance/durability/performance.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Tilton said:


> Total package consideration - how well it handles, how well everything works, how it is laid out, maintenance issues, how smooth the engine is, how smooth the transmission is (my BMW and Audi were manual, the lady's is auto), how durable items are (door handles, knobs, buttons, etc), how tight the suspension is (not just in firmness or softness of ride, but how it does what it is supposed to do with a minimum of necessary adjustments), price. While I am one of the youngest on the board, I have owned seven cars. I put 20k+ miles/year on most cars I've owned and with that amount of driving, one just sort of gets a sense for how well something works and how well it holds up.
> 
> tl/dr: price/quality/maintenance/durability/performance.


Absolutely, I fully agree. I've driven several BMWs and Audis in my time, and my next car will be a BMW. Of all the German cars I've driven from Opels to Fords to Audis I must say that the BMW is the one that makes you go "yeeeeeaaahhh" The worst cars I've ever driven have both been Swedish, a Saab 9-3 and a Volvo S40 - uncomfortable, cramped and underpowered.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Tilton said:


> Total package consideration - how well it handles, how well everything works, how it is laid out, maintenance issues, how smooth the engine is, how smooth the transmission is (my BMW and Audi were manual, the lady's is auto), how durable items are (door handles, knobs, buttons, etc), how tight the suspension is (not just in firmness or softness of ride, but how it does what it is supposed to do with a minimum of necessary adjustments), price. While I am one of the youngest on the board, I have owned seven cars. I put 20k+ miles/year on most cars I've owned and with that amount of driving, one just sort of gets a sense for how well something works and how well it holds up.
> 
> tl/dr: price/quality/maintenance/durability/performance.


I generally agree that BMW is one of the top overall manufacturers in the world, particularly their engines, which are/were fantastic, but I find it a difficult car to judge in some ways because while it does many things very well (and has done some things at an elite level such as the engine for the MacLaren F1), I find the sports sedan class difficult to judge (and I don't find the new M3s particularl intriguing). Note that I haven't owned one in a few years, and I used to occassionally tinker with BMWs for fun, but I also haven't done that in many years, so my opinions might be a bit dated.

I was never thrilled with the quality control on BMW interiors, and I was one of the many people that suffered their terrible electronics, although I hope they have finally solved those problems. Their suspensions also used to be tuned well, but they were a bit fragile (particularly in the rear) if you enjoyed "spirited" driving. However, their engines made up for those issues and the exterior aesthetics in the days of the e30, e34, e36, e38, e39 and e46 were tremendous (and are once-again improving after some rough times).

Have you tested their awd in the snow? At some point I may decide to get another BMW for a family car, but it will only be useful to me if I can drive confidently in the snow.

I drive very rarely these days so my current cars are less well-rounded and for more specific purposes.


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