# New Deception at Brooks Brothers Factory Stores



## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

So, many of you may on occasion, may venture in to Brooks Brothers Factory Stores, which are their outlet oriented diffusion stores.

In the past, it was easy to differentiate between mainline (designed for sale at "real" Brooks Brothers stores) products, labeled with "Brooks Brothers Makers and Merchants" and outlet-specific products, labeled with 346. There were deals to be had on finding legitimate _mainline_ merchandise that one way or another, ended up at the outlet store, usually at 60-80% off MSRP

Well, on a recent visit, I was surprised to find it appears they are phasing out all the "346" bearing tags with something a little more deceptive, tags simply reading "BROOKS BROTHERS" with no mention of "346", "factory", outlet, or anything of the like. This is somewhat similar to how J.Crew factory (their outlet brand) simply has the words "J.CREW' with two small diamonds below the text to indicate "factory store" without actually spelling it out anywhere.

This was true on all of the sport coats and ties that were new stock.

Additionally, there was a huge number of shirts bearing tags identical to the mainline store tags, so I'm not sure if they have cloned those for the outlet as well, or if these were in fact mainline shirts

See below for what the new "outlet" logo looks like. It is distinct in that BROOKS BROTHERS appears in all capital letters, versus the cursive font used on the mainline logos.

For comparison, an 1818 mainline suit label:

My investigation into Brooks Brothers labeling doesn't end here, as I have a whole additional saga unfolding on a slightly different topic, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on this new practice, which seems to be slightly disingenuous considering 346 stuff IS a completely different product. I'm guessing the 346 brand was starting to sound "cheap" to consumers, and they wanted to figure out how to make it look closer to the real deal.


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## CardsHockey (Oct 30, 2014)

adoucett said:


> I'm guessing the 346 brand was starting to sound "cheap" to consumers, and they wanted to figure out how to make it look closer to the real deal.


I agree, but I'm not sure it's deceptive either. It's marketing. I think it makes sense.

ETA: Except for the labels where they perfectly copy the mainline label. That could be considered deceptive if there are no indications of a difference (even a dot or something).


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

How is that deception?


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

Perhaps deception isn't precisely right, but if you are normally expecting to see "346" printed somewhere and instead only see "Brooks Brothers", it could be easy to be tricked if you were not aware of the change in style.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

But you weren't tricked....right?


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

If there are two levels of quality, that had traditionally been clearly delineated as such by labelling, I would wish to be informed clearly of a change in the labelling policy. (I say "if" as I rarely visit Brook's and not for tailored clothing and not at outlets.)


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> But you weren't tricked....right?


When I first started looking at the tie table, I thought "Oh this is interesting, looks like they must have changed the label on the mainline ties" and only realized the new label applied to everything after poking around for a few minutes. I'm the kind of person who pays a lot of attention to those kinds minor details when it comes to labels, and furthermore, only really goes to a BB outlet in search of the rare trace of mainline merch. For someone casually walking in who wasn't really aware there is a difference (or hasn't memorized the appearance of every BB label going back a few decades), this would make it harder to know what you are getting is something different from what is sold in regular stores or on the website. Additionally, for those who scour other channels other than stores, the average eBay seller will probably just list the item as Brooks Brothers whereas before, at least you had the 346 as the giveaway.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

It's a safe bet that most of the merchandise offered at the outlet, especially merchandise available in an abundance or sizes and styles, is made for the outlet. 

When one considers this as a starting point, the notion of being deceived becomes moot.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

adoucett said:


> When I first started looking at the tie table, I thought "Oh this is interesting, looks like they must have changed the label on the mainline ties" and only realized the new label applied to everything after poking around for a few minutes. I'm the kind of person who pays a lot of attention to those kinds minor details when it comes to labels, and furthermore, only really goes to a BB outlet in search of the rare trace of mainline merch. For someone casually walking in who wasn't really aware there is a difference (or hasn't memorized the appearance of every BB label going back a few decades), this would make it harder to know what you are getting is something different from what is sold in regular stores or on the website. Additionally, for those who scour other channels other than stores, the average eBay seller will probably just list the item as Brooks Brothers whereas before, at least you had the 346 as the giveaway.


They changed how the label looks. It hardly rises to the level of deception.

In fairness though, you did admit that deception is too strong.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

CardsHockey said:


> I agree, but I'm not sure it's deceptive either. It's marketing. I think it makes sense.
> 
> ETA: Except for the labels where they perfectly copy the mainline label. That could be considered deceptive if there are no indications of a difference (even a dot or something).


So, you can do anything under marketing to get consumers to buy a product? That's business in America today. Doucett, stick to your guns. It is a deceptive practice, something I had mentioned several months ago in this forum when I found boxers with the new Brooks Brothers labeling.

The outlet stores were originally exactly what that suggests: an outlet for unsold items from the main stores either because of overstocks, irregulars, or style changes. Eventually merchants got the idea that as long as they stamped their logo on any piece of rubbish people would still buy it for the cachet of the name. The lines have blurred, and Ralph Lauren and others developed various lines to cover the whole range of purchasing stratum, with variations of their marquee line. Brooks Brothers was at least straightforward with the 346 line, which was their outlet brand. Yes, I would say that making the distinction between their 'retail store,'as they call it, and the outlet more difficult to discern is a form of deception.

To whit, when I checked the ersatz boxers with the clerks they had to check the bar code of the outlet item to know whether they were from the retail store or an outlet product. In other words, they didn't even know.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

In my view there's no deception because they charge less for the outlet line than the retail line. Lower quality but cheaper price, for those who want a certain look but don't care as much about quality/longevity of the garment.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

To be fair, a lot of the 346 stuff has been truly decent, and plenty of the mainline stuff crap. Same as it ever was.

The benefit of forums like this is learning to discern quality and fit, vs. relying on labels and brands that may be meaningless.


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

Himself said:


> To be fair, a lot of the 346 stuff has been truly decent, and plenty of the mainline stuff crap. Same as it ever was.
> 
> The benefit of forums like this is learning to discern quality and fit, vs. relying on labels and brands that may be meaningless.


Agreed - There are always a few outlet items that stand out to me. Their tailored wear leaves much to be desired, but the ties, are almost identical to the mainline version and are also made in the USA

The outlets are now stocking a version of the must-iron oxford shirt as well, except they made in China instead of made in the USA. For those less concerned with the country of origin, it might be a worthwhile pickup for the price. The fabric felt very similar, and it's always a rarity to find must-iron garments these days.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

All of this deception hullabaloo can be remedied quite simply; buy your underwear and other clothing from somewhere else. 

It's not deceptive, underhanded or trickery. It's a retailer changing its branding. 

I think the first indication that one is actually buying something made expressly for an outlet may just be that one has entered, guess what, an outlet store.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

BB has made several changes to their labels in must-iron made in USA OCBDs in the last few years. Nobody thought that was deceptive. For some unknown reason they just change labels frequently.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

adoucett said:


> Agreed - There are always a few outlet items that stand out to me. Their tailored wear leaves much to be desired, but the ties, are almost identical to the mainline version and are also made in the USA
> 
> The outlets are now stocking a version of the must-iron oxford shirt as well, except they made in China instead of made in the USA. For those less concerned with the country of origin, it might be a worthwhile pickup for the price. The fabric felt very similar, and it's always a rarity to find must-iron garments these days.


A sales associate at an outlet recently told me that the must iron shirts from China are made to the same standards as the must iron shirts in the main line stores, but they are now discontinuing them in the outlets. He did not know if they were going to be replaced with another product.

An outlet item that stands out to me is their all cotton crew socks, sold only at the outlets. Perfect in every way and not too tight around the calf.


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## Old Road Dog (Sep 4, 2015)

I admire the transparency shown by Timberland in their local outlet mall store. There is a sign there that clearly states "some merchandise made especially for this store". I don't find the practice of dual distribution deceptive, but it does place the burden on the consumer to recognize that "compare to" pricing is different from "redline" pricing. Outlets evolved years ago into factory stores. I'm trying to think of a major name manufacturer who sells the same merchandise at both. This is not to say that factory stores don't have good values; because they often do. BB is no different, except I find that their full-line stores are mere shadows of what a Brooks Brothers store used to be. Once they sold out to the British company many years ago it was game over. Those of you who were never in a Brooks store in the 1980's or earlier won't have a clue to what I am talking about.


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## Roycru (Apr 13, 2011)

On the subject of changing Brooks Brothers labels, here's an eBay listing for a Brooks Brothers shirt with a black label. Does anyone know anything about this black label?


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

Roycru said:


> On the subject of changing Brooks Brothers labels, here's an eBay listing for a Brooks Brothers shirt with a black label. Does anyone know anything about this black label?


Sir Roycru,

That is the kind of shirt you would find in a Nordstrom Rack. I think it's a specially produced line for 3rd party retailers. They are always non-irons as well with this particular label.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

adoucett said:


> Sir Roycru,
> 
> That is the kind of shirt you would find in a Nordstrom Rack. I think it's a specially produced line for 3rd party retailers. They are always non-irons as well with this particular label.


+1. They're actually navy blue, but adoucett is correct. I've seen that label at Nordstrom and actually picked one up that had made its way to Marshall's....a non-iron pinpoint. I believe the fit is closest to their Madison/Regular.


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## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

I have found the items sold at L L Bean Outlet stores to be the same as those at the main stores and online. These represent excellent values if one is close to you.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

The items in the Bean outlet store in Freeport are mostly overstocks, unpopular items (plenty of Signature line), manufacturer samples, and returns that haven't been used. Many returns are sent to Goodwill.


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

The entire concept of outlet store seems deceptive, to lead the naive to believe that some reputable merchant is using it as an opportunity to unload excess stock from its normal inventory. Once one abandons any idea that he is getting a bargain (or perhaps buying status he cannot really maintain), serenity is restored.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ some outlets are still true to the original concept. Though true, most of the bigger, fashion labels have lines exclusive to outlets.


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## bloogy (Feb 14, 2014)

adoucett said:


> Agreed - There are always a few outlet items that stand out to me. Their tailored wear leaves much to be desired, but the ties, are almost identical to the mainline version and are also made in the USA
> 
> The outlets are now stocking a version of the must-iron oxford shirt as well, except they made in China instead of made in the USA. For those less concerned with the country of origin, it might be a worthwhile pickup for the price. The fabric felt very similar, and it's always a rarity to find must-iron garments these days.


I thought this was an interesting comment about the ties. I agree in respect and disagree in another. It is true that many of the tie fabrics offered in the factory stores are the same as, or similar to, the fabrics offered in the mainline ties. What I have noticed, however (long ties only, not bows) is that the interlinings used are of a very different quality. The 346 ties typically make a much smaller knot because of this difference. It's a matter of personal preference, but I particularly dislike this when tying a four-in-hand. In addition, the 346 ties often crease in a way that is hard to remedy, not from usual wear but if you pack them for travel. In my experience, this is true even if you use a tie case or wrap them in tissue. I believe the creasing comes not from knotting, as per usual, but from the stiffer interlinings folding and developing a permanent fold.

And I agree with adoucett and some of the other posters that half the fun of going to the factory store used to be to see what you could score from the mainline stores. This remained true until relatively recently: the stores closest to me almost always had a pile (not very elegant) of mainline items near the cash register, with good values to be had. I did not see this the last time I was there, about a month ago. In addition, every single sport shirt in the store was the Regent/slim fit. I fear it may be time for me to move on. Not that one is starved for chance, now that BB has some sort of sale or promotion more or less continuously.


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## rmpmcdermott (Oct 27, 2015)

I don't see any deception or even slight foul play here. If you're in a Brooks Factory Outlet, then assume what you're buying is outlet stuff. If you're in a mainline store then assume that it's mainline stuff. It's not like the old labels said OUTLET on them or anything. Frankly, I'm happy to see the 346 stuff being phased out. It used to be the 346 was a small step below Makers and a pretty high quality garment. My old 346 stuff is all fully canvassed, perfect natural shoulder and incredible construction. Then 346 disappeared and finally reappeared as the outlet stuff. I think that's kinda bunk. In any case, the mainline labels are still different from the outlet labels so I see nothing wrong here.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm reviving this thread after what I experienced today with regard to a BB shirt that I purchased at one of its outlets.

The shirt is a short-sleeve patchwork madras shirt. Regent fit, size M, blue font, *NO difference *between this tag and the tags on my mainline BB sport shirts.

After a wearing, a felt it was a little bit on the small side and wanted to exchange it for a M in Madison fit (or whatever BB calls the next size up from slim).

The sales associate at my local mainline BB could not have been less helpful. All she said was "we don't carry this merchandise here" in a rather condescending manner. I was surprised, as I thought it was a mainline shirt that had somehow made its way to an outlet for liquidation.

(For the record, I also purchased a pair of garment-dyed chinos at this outlet [at 80% off] that I know are mainline, because I have another exact pair that I purchased last year at the mainline store.)

The sales associate told me the 346 stores had recently changed their labels. That's when I remembered this thread.

The sales associate continued in a condescending manner, saying the best she could do would be to call the other outlets and ask if they had the shirt in stock. If I wanted to make the exchange, I'd have to make a drive or pay for shipping. She didn't offer up any mainline shirts or have any other suggestions. It was pretty clear that she couldn't care less about the lost sale when I requested a refund.

In addition to my disappointment with the sales associate's attitude, I'd say this is a case of deceptive labeling. How is the customer to know what they're buying when half of the shirts say '346' and the other half have labels that match mainline merchandise?

Yes, you could say "you bought it at an outlet, you should've known it was outlet merchandise." But, I also bought mainline merchandise (the chinos) at this same outlet on the same day.

Anyone have a short-sleeve patchwork madras shirt they'd like to sell?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
I'm not sure I understand the root of your frustration with the sales clerk at the BB Retail store you to which you returned your shirt, other than perhaps her tone of voice. While she pointed out that the retail stores don't carry that particular shirt design, she also offered to contact other BB outlet stores to see if they had any in a larger size and she, as a final effort to resolve your concerns, did in fact refund your money. I'm not sure what more we could/should expect from a clerk? :icon_scratch:


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## Dmontez (Dec 6, 2012)

Eagle, I think the main part of the frustration is the new deceptive labeling, meaning gamma truly believed he was buying a mainline shirt, not a 346 shirt.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Dmontez said:


> Eagle, I think the main part of the frustration is the new deceptive labeling, meaning gamma truly believed he was buying a mainline shirt, not a 346 shirt.


What Dmontez says is correct. I was also disappointed that the sales associate didn't put much effort into making a customer happy. It's as if I walked in with a shirt with the Polo brand. But it clearly said "Brooks Brothers" with no 346.

I bet if I didn't have my receipt, this sales associate wouldn't have known it was an outlet shirt.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification. Your frustration with the labeling is understandable. BB seems hellbent on tarnishing their own reputation with such practices.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

I stopped off at a BB outlet in western Pennsylvania; the store had very little mainline stuff. Lots of "346" items, of course. The salesperson told me that BB was phasing out the "346" labeling (at least on shirts, but I assume in total), replacing it with a simple "1818." Thus, the only labeling difference will be that the mainline stuff will be labeled as "Est. 1818" while the made-for-outlet stuff will be labeled "1818." 

My initial reaction was that this wasn't a sufficient distinction, even for the typical Brooks Brothers patron, to discern between the two. I still think that...


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

The shirt I returned had no "1818" designation on the tag. I wish I had a photo of it, but I didn't think to take one before returning it. In all honesty, there was no difference between the tag on the patchwork shirt and a mainline tag.

I'm wondering if the sales associate I spoke with was wrong about the shirt. She may have only looked at my receipt. Her attitude quickly changed after noting that the merchandise came from an outlet store, and she may not have even looked at the shirt tag.

It wouldn't be the first time a BB sales associate didn't have correct information about their own merchandise.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

The larger point remains - the outlet shirt label imprinted with "1818" is so close to the mainline "Est. 1818" that one could believe that it is an attempt at deception. It is an unnecessary nuance that probably will only matter to those of us "in the know"...


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Tiger said:


> The larger point remains - the outlet shirt label imprinted with "1818" is so close to the mainline "Est. 1818" that one could believe that it is an attempt at deception. It is an unnecessary nuance that probably will only matter to those of us "in the know"...


The overarching point is BB has apparently changed its labels to the point where their own associates don't know which merchandise is 346 and mainline. I'm pretty convinced the patchwork madras shirt I returned was mainline.

To your point about the "1818," here are labels from new outlet (top) and mainline products (bottom). The uninitiated could certainly be easily confused.


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## rtd1 (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm sorry, but replacing the 346 labels on outlet-specific articles of clothing with 1818 labels (even if they leave off the "Est.") is just outright deception. I have no quarrel with them abandoning the 346 label if they feel it has become associated with cheap crap (rightly so IMO), but then come up with another designation altogether rather than adopting 1818 which has meant "mainline" for as long as I can remember. What's next, slapping a Golden Fleece label on all of their suits and sport coats?


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

The obvious solution going forward is to shop the mainline stores for mainline merch, and shop the factory outlet stores for the off-brand merch. Hard to get tricked that way!


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## Dmontez (Dec 6, 2012)

FL, there are a lot of members that LOVE to get deals, and one of the best ways to do that is to shop a brooks outlet hoping to find mainline items.

Edit:

I think it's come up before, but does anyone have any idea if Unlce Ralph uses different manufacturing process for his outlets, or is EVERYTHING in the those stores mainline that didn't sell at full retail+deep discounts. I know that I can find shorts, and polos from RL at Dillards for 60%off and then half off of that. usually around 10-15 bucks an item.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

FLMike said:


> The obvious solution going forward is to shop the mainline stores for mainline merch, and shop the factory outlet stores for the off-brand merch. Hard to get tricked that way!


The flaw with this plan is that mainline stuff can sometimes be found at the outlets on deep discount.


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## MODEVIL (May 10, 2010)

I stopped shopping at BB factor stores because all the merch seemed to be made for the factory store.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

August West said:


> The flaw with this plan is that mainline stuff can sometimes be found at the outlets on deep discount.


This is true. I bought a pair of garment-dyed chinos at 80% off retail and a new mainline USA-made silk Argyll/Sutherland bow tie at 50% off retail.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

I'm a little perplexed about this "deception" charge. The whole purpose of a factory/outlet store is to give people the impression they're getting great deals on regular merchandise. No company that has outlet stores advertises the fact that they make lesser-quality merchandise to fill those stores, yet they all do it. And the fact that BB had different labeling for the 346 outlet merchandise previously was, I promise you, not an act of transparency intended to help the customer tell the difference. The recent move to make it less clear is only "deception" insofar as the entire outlet industry practices deception. They're just getting a little better at it than they used to be. 

So unless you object to the whole existence of the outlet-store industry, I don't see the big deal here. If it bothers you that much, just buy stuff from regular retail stores where you're guaranteed to get the mainline product.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

gamma68 said:


> The overarching point is BB has apparently changed its labels to the point where their own associates don't know which merchandise is 346 and mainline. I'm pretty convinced the patchwork madras shirt I returned was mainline.
> 
> To your point about the "1818," here are labels from new outlet (top) and mainline products (bottom). The uninitiated could certainly be easily confused.


Yes, that epitomizes the new policy. I find it troublesome...


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Orgetorix said:


> I'm a little perplexed about this "deception" charge. The whole purpose of a factory/outlet store is to give people the impression they're getting great deals on regular merchandise. No company that has outlet stores advertises the fact that they make lesser-quality merchandise to fill those stores, yet they all do it. And the fact that BB had different labeling for the 346 outlet merchandise previously was, I promise you, not an act of transparency intended to help the customer tell the difference. The recent move to make it less clear is only "deception" insofar as the entire outlet industry practices deception. They're just getting a little better at it than they used to be.
> 
> So unless you object to the whole existence of the outlet-store industry, I don't see the big deal here. If it bothers you that much, just buy stuff from regular retail stores where you're guaranteed to get the mainline product.


I'm not much of an outlet shopper, and I knew that _some _companies made products especially for their outlet stores, but I did not know the practice was as pervasive as Orgetorix details.

I think the whole concept is deceptive...unless the public is made aware of the practice by the responsible companies. If so, I'm fine with it.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Tiger said:


> I'm not much of an outlet shopper, and I knew that _some _companies made products especially for their outlet stores, but I did not know the practice was as pervasive as Orgetorix details.
> 
> I think the whole concept is deceptive...unless the public is made aware of the practice by the responsible companies. If so, I'm fine with it.


^^^ This. I rarely shop at outlets because I live in NYC and don't own a car (EBay is my "outlet shopping" and, overall, do pretty well as I find many new items that I've seen in the stores for 50-75% off, but only after the season is over), *but it seems horribly deceptive for the company to not clearly identify what is a regular store item and what was made specifically for the outlets.*

This is why people don't trust companies - you feel cheated and manipulated when this happens. I don't want to have to "study" the label in great detail to learn the truth - make it clear to me and let me decide. I'm always amazed at the amount of money companies will spend on advertising to build their brand - at the amount of money they will spend on market research to find out what the customer wants (I doubt any survey ever came back and said the customer wants to be confused in your outlet stores as to what is "real" merchandise and what is the "made for the outlet" stuff) - yet they will then devalue the brand and diminish their relationship with their customers all to move more outlet stuff.

Is it really worth it? Do they make so much money on outlet stuff, that it's worth tarnishing the brand and the customer relationship?


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Tiger said:


> I'm not much of an outlet shopper, and I knew that _some _companies made products especially for their outlet stores, but I did not know the practice was as pervasive as Orgetorix details.
> 
> I think the whole concept is deceptive...unless the public is made aware of the practice by the responsible companies. If so, I'm fine with it.


https://www.racked.com/2014/10/8/7573957/outlet-mall-stores
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/16/outlet-shopping-stores-knock-offs-_n_5336790.html
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Consumer/story?id=1828568

Ralph Lauren does it. Brooks does it. Bean does it. JAB does it. J Crew does it. Gap does it. Nike does it. Ann Taylor does it. Coach does it. Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Barneys, and Saks all do it. None of these companies publicize the fact they do it, though they will answer more or less truthfully if asked directly. Most customers just don't think to ask, assuming they're getting real, mainline merchandise.

I'm mentally going through the two outlet malls I frequent, and all of the stores I can think of sell primarily or exclusively outlet-only stuff. With one exception: Allen Edmonds. The AE store is essentially a regular AE store that sells AE firsts at regular prices, but also happen to cary seconds and closeout items.



Fading Fast said:


> Is it really worth it? Do they make so much money on outlet stuff, that it's worth tarnishing the brand and the customer relationship?


Absolutely. Quoting from the Racked article I linked above:

"The county's 300 outlet malls generated some $25 billion in sales in 2013, and in addition to being the fastest growing segment in retail, they are also seen as a vacation destiny for those traveling (in other words, a tourist trap)."


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Orgetorix said:


> So unless you object to the whole existence of the outlet-store industry, I don't see the big deal here. If it bothers you that much, just buy stuff from regular retail stores where you're guaranteed to get the mainline product.


I think it's pretty hard to defend the practice of creating deceptive labeling for outlet store merchandise when the store also carries genuine mainline merchandise. It creates a confusion of identity in the event of an exchange (see post #27 above) and creates unsatisfied customers.

Just because BB, Ralph Lauren, et al do it doesn't make it right.


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## Woofa (Dec 23, 2014)

I have recognized the trend getting worse in the past 10 years or so as more and more "outlet" malls and shopping centers open up and less old school "malls." We have at least six or eight in DFW currently and the number goes up each year.
Similar to the way JC Penny almost closed when they stopped having sales and just lowered their actual price, the public at large will buy anything they think is a deal even if they have nothing to back it up.
My basic rule of thumb now is to try and find the few items in each store with a clearly marked tag denoting the changes in price (ie. $1000.00, then $500.00, then $250.00, etc) And of course using all of the knowledge I have gained since I started following menswear at sites like this regarding brands and indicators of quality. Plenty of real bargains out there for those with the knowledge and the patience. The NMLC by me consistently has Bergdorf's previous seasons ultra high level stuff, often at significant discount.
However, as others here can attest, being a thrifter basically kills any kind of retail shopping experience, even one where the discounts go to 75% or more. How can I get excited about seeing a pair of Incotex on sale for $150 when I got two last week for $3 each, or that Brioni sports coat for $1295.99 when I the last one I bought was $10 after using my half priced coupon?


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Orgetorix said:


> https://www.racked.com/2014/10/8/7573957/outlet-mall-stores
> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/16/outlet-shopping-stores-knock-offs-_n_5336790.html
> https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Consumer/story?id=1828568
> 
> ...


Cole Haan does it too. For example, they have two different versions of the same model of frat cleats (drivers), one for their mainlines stores and wholesale accounts, and one for their outlet stores. Absolutely nothing new about this practice. If anything, Brooks is a little late to the party in creating labeling obfuscation. Nothing to be gained by getting indignant about it. It's the way of the modern retail world.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

gamma68 said:


> I think it's pretty hard to defend the practice of creating deceptive labeling for outlet store merchandise when the store also carries genuine mainline merchandise. It creates a confusion of identity in the event of an exchange (see post #27 above) and creates unsatisfied customers.
> 
> Just because BB, Ralph Lauren, et al do it doesn't make it right.


First of all, you're not remotely understanding me if you think I'm defending the practice. I just don't think BB is any worse than the norm for their industry, and complaining about BB's labels is silly. It's like complaining that Coke uses corn syrup instead of cane sugar in their soda these days. It's not new, it's not unusual, everybody does it, and you have an easy out if you don't like it - buy the bottled Mexican Cokes.

To your point, you have to realize that clearing out old mainline inventory is, if anything, only a secondary purpose for the BB factory stores. The primary purpose is selling outlet merchandise. It's pure random chance that some outlets also carry mainline merchandise, and there are some outlets that don't even get any.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Orgetorix said:


> First of all, you're not remotely understanding me if you think I'm defending the practice. I just don't think BB is any worse than the norm for their industry, and complaining about BB's labels is silly. It's like complaining that Coke uses corn syrup instead of cane sugar in their soda these days. It's not new, it's not unusual, everybody does it, and you have an easy out if you don't like it - buy the bottled Mexican Cokes.
> 
> To your point, you have to realize that clearing out old mainline inventory is, if anything, only a secondary purpose for the BB factory stores. The primary purpose is selling outlet merchandise. It's pure random chance that some outlets also carry mainline merchandise, and there are some outlets that don't even get any.


I didn't find it silly to discover it would be impractical to exchange a shirt I purchased for another size because the associate assumed it was an outlet product. I'm still not convinced it actually was an outlet shirt.

I guess you had to be there.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Woofa said:


> I...However, as others here can attest, being a thrifter basically kills any kind of retail shopping experience, even one where the discounts go to 75% or more. How can I get excited about seeing a pair of Incotex on sale for $150 when I got two last week for $3 each, or that Brioni sports coat for $1295.99 when I the last one I bought was $10 after using my half priced coupon?


This is in part why retail is struggling. They are eating their young. Be it a sale every week or dumping the unsold merchandise through discounters or factory stores or selling cheaper items that are very similar to their better items at lower prices in factory stores, they have diminished the value of their product. Even up until the '80s, most higher-end and even mid-level stores had a few sales a year at the end of a season for the merchandise that was left. And most of it was picked over with the good stuff gone or gone on the first day of the sale.

Hence, if you wanted an item that you saw during the season, you expected to pay full price and did so if you could as you had very little expectation that'd you be able to buy it on sale. I bought most things at full price in those days - now I almost never do.

Maybe this new model is more profitable (how do you do a lab experiment for that - how do you control for changed behavior and norms and test a model - most things sold at full price - from a different time) or maybe it just moves more stuff at a lower price (nothing novel there). Every business has right to choose its own pricing model - so whether this new model is the "right" model, it is the business's to decide - but all the sales, discounting, factory legerdemain does diminish the brand. And being cute about what is real and what is factory merchandise adds to cynicism about the brand.

I can't argue what is the more profitable model based on statistics, revenues, costs, etc. for reasons stated above (no way to truly compare), but every business instinct I have and every conviction I have as a consumer tells me the self-diminution of your brand is not a smart or sustainable model. And "tricking" your customers demoralizes not only your customers but your employees - how much pride does a BB employee feel when they have to explain a label that they know was intentionally made to deceive? Again, I find it hard to believe that is a great, long-term business model.

As Woofa implies, BB and the others have made you - us, the customer - feel stupid if we pay anything near full price. Hard to believe that's a good place for a business to be.


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## HanEyeAm (Mar 11, 2016)

I was excited to visit the BB Outlet at Potomac Mills recently, a first. I was looking specifically for sport coats and suits but poked around at pants as well. I really didn't like anything: the quality didn't seem that great, the Fitzgerald fit was quite different than the main line suits, and there wasn't really any main line stuff.

Sacks off 5th seemed to only have "factory" crap. Thought I was in Kohls.

Nordstrom Rack, however, was not too shabby.


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## mngermanshepherd (May 7, 2015)

Sorry to revive an old thread, but it seemed more appropriate than starting a new one with the same topic -

I was in the BB Outlet yesterday in Eagan, Minnesota. A fair amount of the shirts were "Brooks Brothers 1818 Regent" and looked no different than the mainline BB shirts. They still had 346 branded clothing in there mixed in but it wasn't as prevalant - I thought maybe the outlet began stocking mainline items to try to dissuade the notion the 346 was inferior but now I see that's not the case. Thanks for the info folks.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

mngermanshepherd said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, but it seemed more appropriate than starting a new one with the same topic -
> 
> I was in the BB Outlet yesterday in Eagan, Minnesota. A fair amount of the shirts were "Brooks Brothers 1818 Regent" and looked no different than the mainline BB shirts. They still had 346 branded clothing in there mixed in but it wasn't as prevalant - I thought maybe the outlet began stocking mainline items to try to dissuade the notion the 346 was inferior but now I see that's not the case. Thanks for the info folks.


Anything labeled "1818" without the prefix "Est." is made for the outlet, it is not BB mainline.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

I've shared this fun fact around here before (and I probably learned it here 1000 years ago), but this is the surefire way to tell the difference:

The price tags on Brooks Brothers merchandise, mainline and outlet have a series of numbers on them. Generally the first set of numbers is either "26" or "27". Literally every stitch of clothing and accessories they sell which still has a tag attached will have a 26 or 27. 

26 = mainline
27 = outlet

I remember which is which because 26 came first.

I find the hunt for 26s at the outlet to be fun. I actually like to see if I can pick out the 26 ties just by their design. Pretty common to find mainline shirts when they run their big shirt sales. 

As you probably know, the outlet shirts have non-exact sleeve sizing (16 - 34/35). For those who have really been around a long time, 34/5 used to mean 34 1/2". So not only do they not have half sizes at the outlet, they put the 34s and the 35s together. Drives me crazy.

JB


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

Joe Tradly said:


> I've shared this fun fact around here before (and I probably learned it here 1000 years ago), but this is the surefire way to tell the difference:
> 
> The price tags on Brooks Brothers merchandise, mainline and outlet have a series of numbers on them. Generally the first set of numbers is either "26" or "27". Literally every stitch of clothing and accessories they sell which still has a tag attached will have a 26 or 27.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the knowledge my friend.


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## Bato (Feb 5, 2010)

Fading Fast said:


> As Woofa implies, BB and the others have made you - us, the customer - feel stupid if we pay anything near full price. Hard to believe that's a good place for a business to be.


Agree completely. I have become so demoralized with BB's (and others') pricing games over the past few years that I no longer shop there. Purchasing clothing at BB began to feel a little bit like buying a car - the second the ink dries, you feel like you overpaid. It is frustrating paying $800-$1000 for an item and seeing it on sale for 25% a week or two later.

Though I have an interest in clothing, I would not describe myself as someone who likes to shop. Rather, like most on this forum, appreciate quality and see clothing as a worthwhile investment. Without the time or desire to constantly monitor whether my calendar, size and the sale of the day are magically aligned, I was ultimately driven to my local clothing store where I know I am getting a _fair _deal. I am sure I am the minority, but keep telling myself I am not the only one!


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ it's not like BB is another JAB with different sale and discount schemes changing every week. 

BB basically has 2 seasonal clearance sales; one summer and one after Christmas. They also have 2 friends and family events, one in the fall and I'm not sure about the other. 

If you develop a relationship with an SA, he/she will send you a calendar of special pricing events to help you organize your purchase choices. 

Also, I just take issue with the title of this thread. There's no deception here folks.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

SG_67 said:


> Also, I just take issue with the title of this thread. There's no deception here folks.


Please refer to post #35, my friend. That is unquestionably an attempt at obfuscation, I believe.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Reading this thread as it evolves, I wonder how many of those contributing were actually around and shopping at Brooks Brothers when it was a unique, quality men's clothing establishment. I can't really make a comparison in today's shopping environment because nothing compares. The stores that were around in 1970, I think there were four or five, were solemn business with knowledgeable sales staff and 2-3 floors of predictable quality men's clothing for most occasions. There is really very little from those decades that remains in their 'retail' stores, so this discussion is practically moot.


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## Old Road Dog (Sep 4, 2015)

I complete agree with xcubbies' assessment of the current Brooks Bros. presence. It is no more than a rough replica of what once was a unique mercantile organization. Their focus seems driven more by "two for" pricing than actual value.

I had the opportunity recently to visit the J.Press store near Harvard Square. I found it a bit worn and tired looking compared to many of the stores that they competed with in the decades of the 60's and 70's, however, they clearly stand for something and continue where most others have failed. For this, I commend them. Brooks Bros have saved none of this legacy and instead are trading on what's left of a name alone. 

What's missing from Brooks and so many other retailers is that elusive quality I can only describe with the word "panache". They just don't convey to the customer a feeling that what they offer in merchandise and the customer's shopping experience is special in any way. Products like their revived Pima cotton button-down shirt indicate that their might still be a faint heart-beat detectable. More offerings based on their proud heritage could help revive the Golden Fleece.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Old Road Dog said:


> I complete agree with xcubbies' assessment of the current Brooks Bros. presence. It is no more than a rough replica of what once was a unique mercantile organization. Their focus seems driven more by "two for" pricing than actual value.
> 
> I had the opportunity recently to visit the J.Press store near Harvard Square. I found it a bit worn and tired looking compared to many of the stores that they competed with in the decades of the 60's and 70's, however, they clearly stand for something and continue where most others have failed. For this, I commend them. Brooks Bros have saved none of this legacy and instead are trading on what's left of a name alone.
> 
> *What's missing from Brooks and so many other retailers is that elusive quality I can only describe with the word "panache". *Theyjust don't convey to the customer a feeling that what they offer in merchandise and the customer's shopping experience is special in any way. Products like their revived Pima cotton button-down shirt indicate that their might still be a faint heart-beat detectable. More offerings based on their proud heritage could help revive the Golden Fleece.


This is what's so great about Paul Stuart.


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## Old Road Dog (Sep 4, 2015)

Exactly. Paul Stuart is the master of what I mentioned, but they are a current great store. Brooks Brothers has put almost an entire generation between itself and what they once stood for. The only exception to this is the BB young men's departments in some Nordstrom stores. They should parlay that feeling into the regular stores. The other thing hurting them is also true at PRL: The customer is confused by the existence of the factory stores in the discount malls, much discussed prior in this thread. Instead of the prestige rubbing off on the cheaper goods the reverse is true and the good stuff is sullied by the replica merchandise being sold at a much lower price.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

While I appreciate the historical perspective and poignant remarks made by xcubbies and Old Road Dog, they are a bit tangential to this thread. At issue is whether the current Brooks Brothers - whatever one thinks about it as a clothing retailer - is practicing deceit and/or obfuscation through its outlet store labeling policies.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ It's an outlet store. Assume anything you buy there is made for the outlet. 

Practicing deceit and obfuscation are pretty serious charges. Were they selling outlet merchandise at their regular mainline stores for the same price, you would have a point. 

Conversely, if they were selling outlet merchandise for the same price as their regular merchandise you would also have a point. 

They are doing neither. The labelling did and still looks different. That someone is not paying attention is not the fault of the merchant. 

It seems to me there are two types of buyers at these places. Those looking for deals and those looking to grab regular line merchandise at a steal. 

The former I doubt care and are looking for a good price for whatever it is they are looking for. The latter, I would assume, are a bit more savvy and strategic. They also strike me as the type who know how to navigate outlets. 

The OP wasn't fooled. I realize he thinks he's doing a service by pointing out the label change, but looking at the labels they are substantially different. 

I see nothing but re-branding here. No attempt to deceive customers.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Tiger said:


> While I appreciate the historical perspective and poignant remarks made by xcubbies and Old Road Dog, they are a bit tangential to this thread. At issue is whether the current Brooks Brothers - whatever one thinks about it as a clothing retailer - is practicing deceit and/or obfuscation through its outlet store labeling policies.


Thanks for the clarity of thought. I think my point is that whether you buy something, either from the retail store on Madison Avenue, or the Outlet Mall in Lee, MA, you're still not really buying Brooks Brothers clothing.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

I respectfully disagree. If what you write is true, and there's no desire to obfuscate, shouldn't the labels be distinct enough to remove any doubt?

I've been in a BB outlet exactly once. While the "346" merchandise was clearly marked, I would've missed the "1818" nonsense if not for the salesperson's intervention in pointing it out. (See post #35)

As I've written previously, I am not an outlet shopper, and have generally suspected that they sold overstock merchandise in such stores. I recently learned that many outlets sell merchandise made specifically for that purpose. I am fine with all of that, as long as it's fairly clear to consumers. 

Many people believe they are buying mainline merchandise at a great price, because they believe the items did not sell (for whatever reason) in regular stores. The "1818" labeling gives that mindset credence, yet it isn't true.

Doesn't integrity still matter?


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

xcubbies said:


> Thanks for the clarity of thought. I think my point is that whether you buy something, either from the retail store on Madison Avenue, or the Outlet Mall in Lee, MA, you're still not really buying Brooks Brothers clothing.


I completely understand. I'm a bit too young to lament the "passing" of the BB of legend, but I can certainly commiserate. Always sad to see greatness tarnished, whether it's a baseball player hanging on for too long, a musical band performing as a shell of itself, or a retailer of renown no longer trading in the same level of quality merchandise.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I see your point but in my opinion the label is distinct enough.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Tiger said:


> I completely understand. I'm a bit too young to lament the "passing" of the BB of legend, but I can certainly commiserate. Always sad to see greatness tarnished, whether it's a baseball player hanging on for too long, a musical band performing as a shell of itself, or a retailer of renown no longer trading in the same level of quality merchandise.


Actually it's not a 'retailer of renown' but a case of a brand purchased and structured for maximum profit.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

xcubbies said:


> Actually it's not a 'retailer of renown' but a case of a brand purchased and structured for maximum profit.


Thank you; your phraseology is much more accurate.


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## Bato (Feb 5, 2010)

SG_67 said:


> ^ it's not like BB is another JAB with different sale and discount schemes changing every week.
> 
> BB basically has 2 seasonal clearance sales; one summer and one after Christmas. They also have 2 friends and family events, one in the fall and I'm not sure about the other.
> 
> ...


A quick Reddit search shows the following sales from August through Black Friday of last year:


Clearance up to 60%- Aug 28-Sept 7
Fall Sale 25-40% - Sept 10- Dec 2
Private Sale Event (invite only) Sept 11-13
Friends and Family 25% w/EDV's Sep 17-21
Men's Suits 2/$1499 Oct 2-5 *Columbus Day Sale (Dress shirts 3/$159) Oct 8-12
CIS 30%- NO EDV's Oct 15
Cardholder 25% w/New acct or 10% w existing Oct 20-26
Armed Forces (military 25%) Nov 7-11
CIS 30%-- NO EDV's Nov 19
Sweater Event M/W/C 30% Nov 20-30 *Black Friday 15% All day/ 20% w/BBCC Nov 27-28

I do not think they are on JAB's level with the discount schemes and agree with your point on the sales associate if you are lucky enough to find one, but they are running way more that four sales a year. Finding a steady salesman at a national chain is easier said than done, especially if only in store a few times each year. Retail is a tough business with high turnover; I suspect not every BB store is fortunate to have a tenured salesman on staff, especially as you get further outside of the northeast and some of the older, more established store locations.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Tiger said:


> .......................
> .......................................................
> Many people believe they are buying mainline merchandise at a great price, because they believe the items did not sell (for whatever reason) in regular stores. The "1818" labeling gives that mindset credence, yet it isn't true.
> 
> Doesn't integrity still matter?


Integrity is a character trait that has fallen from favor in so many professions today. When we seem to be oh-so-ready to accept that sad reality, why is it so upsetting to discover an alleged/apparent lack of integrity on the part of clothing retailers?


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> Integrity is a character trait that has fallen from favor in so many professions today. When we seem to be oh-so-ready to accept that sad reality, why is it so upsetting to discover an alleged/apparent lack of integrity on the part of clothing retailers?


Agreed - and I am deeply saddened by how pervasive the lack of character and integrity is; it can make one despondent.

This was a thread about BB, so I chimed in. I fully understand that in the scheme of things, this is trivial, although certainly emblematic of the problem.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

xcubbies said:


> Thanks for the clarity of thought. I think my point is that whether you buy something, either from the retail store on Madison Avenue, or the Outlet Mall in Lee, MA, *you're still not really buying Brooks Brothers clothing.*


What does that mean? If you go to J Press and buy an OCBD, or go to Thom Browne and buy one of those $400+ OCBDs with the red/white/blue grosgrain strips down the front placket what are you buying? Real J Press or Thom Browne?

I don't know about now, but a couple of years ago both of those examples were being manufactured in Brooks Brothers' Garland Shirt Company factory in North Carolina.


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## ASH (Feb 7, 2006)

The BB factory label is in block capitals while the main store ones are the traditional cursive writing. I am not a fan of factory products, it just cheapens the brand. Here are some of the brands that do this:

1. BB
2. Ralph Lauren
3. J. Crew
4. Banana Republic
5. Coach
6. True Religion jeans
7. GAP ( same company as Banana Republic)
8. FILSON 
And many more.

But the good news is if you ask the staff for a retail product in a factory store, they show it to you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

SG_67 said:


> This is what's so great about Paul Stuart.


Agreed. It reminds me of what I saw of the tail end of the classic men's stores in the '70s and '80s.

Most of their items are truly made just for Paul Stuart - you won't find them elsewhere and they are different. While BB might still be able to say this, their stuff today is generic - Red Fleece might be "unique" to BB, but it is basically J.Crew at BB (just not done as well).

There's a consistent quality throughout PS and, while the style and colors are a bit aggressive for my staid taste, I respect and appreciate that they have a style viewpoint and stay with it year to year.

And the better salespeople in PS know their product, know why it's different - the sock department will tell you why the "buyer" chose this or that sock - rarely can you have a real product specific quality or origin conversation in a men's store today.

Also, PS has the best logo on the market for my money (from a guy who hates logos) as it looks like a beautiful illustration from the '30s, isn't slapped on everything and isn't really well known.

That said, I can hardly afford anything in the store.


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