# Trad Spotting



## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

I like to spot my Trads in Fortnum & Mason's Food Hall, London. (The National Gallery is also a good spot.)
Quiet middle-aged couples are my favourites.
I like them best when their raincoats contrast slightly. 
Him in Khaki, her in olive is always a pleasing combination.
I'd never dream of disturbing them or frightening them by taking photographs.
It's just nice to see them & pick up tips on how to _really_ get the collar of your button-down to roll with that full-bellied look.
Inspiring!

Where else do you think I should go in London to see a good Trad on holiday?
(Trads on holiday are best. Trads who live here can get a bit 'Englishy' looking after a while.)

Russell


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## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> Trads who live here can get a bit 'Englishy' looking after a while.)


I can see this happening very easily. After all, I'd wager that, in some respects,Trad really is just an aborted form of Anglophilia. Just sort of arrested sometime around 1776...


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Horace - 

I think that that's true.
I couldn't argue the point, but I like to think of American Trad as the 'old' look which you kept while we started fooling around with pleats, darts, padding & whatnot.
I'm sure the style historians on the forum could educate me on this point.

Russell


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Just back from my walk before lunch.

A very good Trad spotted by Westminster Abbey.
Must have been in his '70's.
Chinos at perfect lengh. (British Khaki, although uncuffed)
Short raincoat. (An off white heading towards grey colour)
What looked like black Sebago Caymans without the top-stitching (I'd have worn wine, but then I'm only a pseudo-Trad!)
I'm sure it was a Brooks BD sticking out - it had that 'grainy' look. (Blue) Couldn't see a white T-shirt beneath, but one was probably there.
By the look of his shoulders he had some sort of natural shoulder jacket on under his mac. I'm imagining a blazer.
No Tie! (But that's OK - let him relax a little)
And *BLESS HIM!* - A khaki cotton poplin rain hat with a blue & red 'watchstripe' band.

I didn't catch his eye, but I would have nodded at him (I'm not shy).

Russell


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Sounds great, except for the black shoes. Someone please tell me, is black for shoes very Trad?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

I think not.

But I am not to be trusted.

(I really must go in to lunch now!)

Russell


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

If I understand you correctly you are on the look out for American Trads here in London (and preferably on their hols). I would recommend some of the posher and better known churches on a Sunday (there is also an American Church in Tottenham Court Road). St John's Wood (with the American School) is probably now the centre of 'American London' although Russian is being increasingly heard there.

Trimmer


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Bass or Sebago: which is more Trad? I've worn neither since I was a very young man in London and all of this talk about Trad has got me feeling nostalgic. 

Other places to spot Trads on holiday in London:

* Harrod's
* Knightsbridge
* South Kensington
* Kensington High Street
* Kensington Gardens
* Green Park. I distinctly remember boarding a No. 114 omnibus as a teenager at Green Park, and standing in front of me in the queue was an elderly English gent wearing a tattersal shirt, cravat, Barbour quilted vest, yellowish-tan cords, brown brogues, and carrying a walking stick and folded copy of the Telegraph. He had long white hair that he had slicked back and a little white beard-moustache combo. He looked very much like George Adamson ('Born Free'). It must have been about 1987 or spring 1988, but the image has remained with me all these years. Does one still see these men in London today? Or have they all retreated to the Home Counties?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Just quickly -

Thank you *Trimmer* - What a lot you know! I can honestly say that I've never been to St John's Wood in my life. Thank you for the tip.

*Old Brompton* - Sebago to me is more of a shoe. Weejuns I love because of their 'So what?' air. Both give me nothing but pleasure.

A slight aside - The Japanese tourist is often a good Trad spot. Like me they have adopted an 'alien' style, but they do do it well.
The French & Italians, I think, _could_ do it well. If only they wouldn't insist on doing everything "with a twist". The only Trad thing with a twist should be your wife's G&T. But then... What do I know?

Russell

Oh - and Stratford-Upon-Avon can be a very good Trad spot too.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> ...but then I'm only a pseudo-Trad!


As I think AAAC members have hacked out in other threads, at other times, there is no real membership requirement for "trad". If you dress trad because you like the style then that's fine, just don't dress trad as an 'aspirational' act.

DocC


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Old Brompton_
> 
> I distinctly remember boarding a No. 114 omnibus as a teenager at Green Park,


I hope you will forgive me for saying so but that would have been a No. 14. I just wanted to point out that although trad buses were withdrawn from 'ordinary' service in London in December there are two 'heritage routes' operating in the day time including one (the No 9) along Piccadilly - so you can still board one at Green Park and who knows who you will meet . . . ?

Trimmer


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Trimmer_
> I hope you will forgive me for saying so but that would have been a No. 14.


You're quite right. Thanks for the correction. I originally wrote 14, but second-guessed myself (hence the edit)!


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## 80FJ40 (Sep 26, 2005)

1. Kings Coll. Monday Evensong (sorry for breaking the rule, not London).
2. Wilton's.
3. Guards Museum.
4. Queen's bench/Bailey/Inns of Court.

80FJ40


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Very good tips everybody - Thank you.

And also a very good point about not dressing in a 'Trad.' manner to aspire to be something that you are not. Of course that way madness lies.
My love of Trad is a love of the _style_ only. I'm sure that that is the same as an American dressing in English clothes - The American wouldn't be trying to pretend that he was an Englishman, he would just be indulging his taste for clothes that he found... well... _beautiful_ (Bit of a flowery word, I know). You just love certain clothes or you don't. I'm very happy to swap the whole of Savile Row with you if you'll let me have access to J. Press in return.

Russell


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by 80FJ40_
> 
> 1. Kings Coll. Monday Evensong (sorry for breaking the rule, not London).


Monday Evensong? The one that _isn't_ sung by the college choir?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Oh, and *Old Brompton* - I'm sorry I didn't answer your question about Green Park - Yes, 'country clothes in the city' is still a very common look on Piccadilly, and, of course, on my neighbours in the country too (Gloucestershire). 
Now _there's_ a look you could pick apart! 
Are they 'aspirational' dressers, etc? 
In the city, country clothes are a very deliberate style statement I think.

Russell

PS - What a lovely red bus.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't want to divert this thread unduly, but this puts into words a vague concern I have had while hanging around this forum for the last few weeks.

It seems to me that there is almost a slavish desire to conform to a certain look or movement. Many threads focus on the true meaning of 'Trad', 'traditional', 'preppy' and so on. I am as 'guilty' as many others. I allowed the 'paninari' look that emerged in Milan in the 80s and had a good following in the UK (Google it for more info) to influence my style for many years - perhaps it still does.

But my question is 'is it not enough just to be Well-Dressed?' Must there always be this keen zest to conform?

Sorry to highjack the thread.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Interesting isn't it?
Trad. American in the UK is a non-conformist look.
But why have a 'look' at all?
No answers from me...
I just like a certain bunch of clothes that go together rather well.
I _could_ wear a mixture of anything from anywhere..., but I don't. Some things just look good together to my eye and some things don't.

Russell


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> . . . 'country clothes in the city' is still a very common look on Piccadilly . . .


'Country' and 'town' are, I suggest, activities rather than places. For example the 'no brown [shoes] in town rule' only applies if I am 'in town' in the sense that I am on business or going to a memorial service or the like. If I live in town (without the inverted comas) and go for a walk in the park and then take a stroll down Piccadilly to do a spot of shopping I am not 'in town' and 'country clothes' (maybe not a shotgun of course) would be appropriate.

Trimmer


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

And lovely old 'Trad' looks good everywhere!

R.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Trimmer_
> 
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> ...


Thanks - that makes a lot of sense[^]


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

Just got all nostalgic seeing that Routemaster bus. A part of old London died the day they abolished all but the two heritage routes, so much so that I decided to start cycling in London instead of getting the horrendous new buses. 

I fondly remember sitting in spring sunshine on a 22 in Putney Heath on Easter Saturday 2001, I had just seen the Boat Race and had a few beers, and was feeling very mellow, and got chatting to the clippie who had just qualified and was taking her very first shift. When I got home I heard HM Queen Elizabeth QM had died that afternoon. 

As for trads in London...I find the area around Grosvenor Square (US Embassy) to have a fair few. 


'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
> Just got all nostalgic seeing that Routemaster bus. A part of old London died the day they abolished all but the two heritage routes, so much so that I decided to start cycling in London instead of getting the horrendous new buses.


And let us not forget the many conductors who have lost their jobs . . .








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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks Hugh.
It is a _lovely_ bus, isn't it?
I love an unexpected Trad... turn the corner and there he is... always makes my day.
It's easy to get Trad-starved over here... Often I'll have to take a detour just to look in J. Simons' window to perk myself up...

I really should turn Trad spotting into a proper sport - When I see five in a row I should be allowed to shout 'Boola'! (sp? - only ever heard it said, never seen it written down) Or I could sing the few words I know to 'Give my regards to Davey'...
Simple pleasures!

Russell

PS - Do you like it buttoned-down & natural-shouldered yourself, by any chance?
If so, then that's you, me, and Chris H. so far for the Ask Andy Anglo 'Trads'...
If we get enough of us then we could drive the pleaters & darters off Savile Row & have a (restrained) party there.

It's just a thought.

R.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

...oh the dear old 159 - I remember it so well from back in the days I used it to go home to Streatham from Trafalgar Square! Incidentally, the last 'trolley' bus in London was retired in 1952, but they have recently been reintroduced again in Croydon. 

Trimmer and Russell Street, when are you going to meet up with Hugh and I and the others?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Hello V. Man,

Could I interest you in joining my Anglo Trad Army?
We need to beef up our numbers.
The uniform is lovely, but I'm afraid the pay is shocking.

Just a thought...

Russell


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> ...oh the dear old 159 - I remember it so well from back in the days I used it to go home to Streatham from Trafalgar Square! Incidentally, the last 'trolley' bus in London was retired in 1952, but they have recently been reintroduced again in Croydon.
> 
> Trimmer and Russell Street, when are you going to meet up with Hugh and I and the others?


Forgive me V-M but you are confusing trolley-buses and trams. The last London trolley bus ran in 1962. It is the tram which has been reintroduced in Croydon. Of course Americans call trams 'trolleys' so maybe you were just translating . . .

Looking forward to meeting up . . . provided I can get to the venue by 'heritage' Routemaster.

Trimmer, ding-ding


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Oh Trad is huge, no doubt...
Huger would be better! 

What is Vman? How did you find out about it 'by accident'? 
This isn't going to be a 'I was once walking home and took a short-cut through Soho' story, is it?

R.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

I must admit I am not a trad myself - I favour the English fogey look - but I do think Americans look good in trad. 

I'm glad someone else was enough of an anorak (is there such a thing as a trad anorak?) to point out the difference between trams and trollybuses. The last 'proper' tram in London ran in 1952, coincidentally the year our late King died - another landmark of the end of the 'old' Britain. 

I find, however, a bicyle replaces some of the nostalgia for the Routemaster, you get the wind in your hair, a nice bell to ring, you can jump off and on whenever you want, and you can recreate the same feeling of danger as you got from hanging off the open back of a bus. 

Other good trad spotting places are Oxford and Cambridge (visiting professors from the US) and places like Hampton Court etc, but you have to pick them out from the bog standard 'Chevy Chase' American tourists.

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Dear Trimmer,

As you know I am recruiting Anglo 'Trads' to finally put an end to all the pleating and darting that has been going on.
Lunch is at Rules or Simpsons.
That way we can pop into John's shop for inspiration before we march on the Row.
Try to talk 'round your friend Vettriano Man - We need to be persuasive.

R.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Trimmer - 

Talk to Hugh Morrison. He may weaken. Use patch and flap if you have too.

R.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Trimmer_
> 
> Forgive me V-M but you are confusing trolley-buses and trams. The last London trolley bus ran in 1962. It is the tram which has been reintroduced in Croydon. Of course Americans call trams 'trolleys' so maybe you were just translating . . .


Yes you are quite right - my error - it was the trams that last ran on 5th July 1952. I love the way these threads turn into something else...!


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Notice how the old trams picked up their electric current from a 'conduit' below the street rather than from overhead wires so as not to spoil the skyline.

Trimmer


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## Leon (Apr 16, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> ...oh the dear old 159 - I remember it so well from back in the days I used it to go home to Streatham from Trafalgar Square!


The 159! I used to take it to school from Streatham. And now it goes past my house, but no longer a Routemaster.

Leon

About Eden's penchant for double-breasted waistcoats: 
"Always had doubts about that. So did my tailor." 
Bill Deedes


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Leon_
> 
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I used to take it to work when I lived in West Hampstead. Maybe instead of a trad army we could start a 159 Club, hire an old Routemaster and drive round the streets of London. We could set up a bar on the lower deck . . . Hugh could wear his anorak.

Trimmer (hold tightly please!)


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

Believe it or not I used to live in West Hampstead also (off Mill Lane, around the Fortune Green area) and took the 159 regularly back from nights out in central London. 

I believe there are companies that hire out Routemasters and drivers - so perhaps we could start up an 'Ask Andy Trad Bus' going around distributing information on trad clothing, and selling vintage clothes, along the lines of the Chap magazine's 'Children In Tweed' campaign?

All fares would have to be rendered in pre-decimal coinage, and smoking would be permitted on the top deck.

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
> Believe it or not I used to live in West Hampstead also (off Mill Lane, around the Fortune Green area) and took the 159 regularly back from nights out in central London.
> 
> ...


'Oyster cards' would not be accepted but oysters could be served from the lower deck bar.

Trimmer (move down the bus please!)


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

On my lunchime walk today I realised the incredible 'tradness' of the area I work in, not tarted up for tourists but genuine - loads of old genteely decaying Georgian squares, second hand bookshops, neglected churches, little corner pubs, all decorated by little trad details like knackered old bikes chained to railings, shabby cars like old MGs etc. It made me wonder how long this part of old London will last. 

Would anyone be interested in seeing some pics if I get the chance to take some - it could be a regular feature - 'trad town' or somesuch.

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
> On my lunchime walk today I realised the incredible 'tradness' of the area I work in, not tarted up for tourists but genuine - loads of old genteely decaying Georgian squares, second hand bookshops, neglected churches, little corner pubs, all decorated by little trad details like knackered old bikes chained to railings, shabby cars like old MGs etc. It made me wonder how long this part of old London will last.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you walked into a time warp. Look forward to seeing the pictures. How will you post them from your Brownie?

Trimmer


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> As for trads in London...I find the area around Grosvenor Square (US Embassy) to have a fair few.


That is correct. Anytime I'm in our West End offices (Upper Grosvenor Street) and having a cigarette break, I can watch at least two of them passing by.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

Talking of trad spotting, I don't mean to make light of a horrific murder case, but has anyone noticed that Mr Sion Jenkins, the man cleared of murdering his step-daughter, is rather trad? Nowadays most men who appear in court wear some casual rubbish or an off the peg dark suit, but he always appears in tweeds, cords etc. Not quite appropriate in court in my view, but interesting nonetheless.

https://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40965000/jpg/_40965912_sionjenkins203pa.jpg

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
> On my lunchime walk today I realised the incredible 'tradness' of the area I work in, not tarted up for tourists but genuine - loads of old genteely decaying Georgian squares, second hand bookshops, neglected churches, little corner pubs, all decorated by little trad details like knackered old bikes chained to railings, shabby cars like old MGs etc. It made me wonder how long this part of old London will last.
> 
> Would anyone be interested in seeing some pics if I get the chance to take some - it could be a regular feature - 'trad town' or somesuch.


Any picture would be highly appreciated. I am just wondering which part of the town you are referring to - maybe some areas between Regent's Park and Coram's Fields?

Cheers,
A.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Albert_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nearly - it's the area between Pentonville Road, Gray's Inn Road and Rosebery Avenue, it's called Finsbury in the A-Z but I think 'Myddletonia' after Myddleton Square would be more accurate.

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
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Nice. That would have been my second guess.

The cabdriver once took me through there in the morning after three nearly-allnight sessions, hence I was a little bit sedated. I didn't have seen this part of the town before - when I briefly woke up in the backseat, I was totally amazed and already started thinking about the local housing prices.

Really a nice area.

Is there some kind of university campus nearby? I remember spotting some students.

Cheers,
A.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

I think City University and a sixth form college are nearby. Judging by the shabbiness of some of the houses, I suspect there are a lot of sitting tenants living there, but there also seems to be a fair bit of new money (property prices are, like everywhere in London, astronomical) which makes for a nice balanced feel.

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
> I think City University and a sixth form college are nearby. Judging by the shabbiness of some of the houses, I suspect there are a lot of sitting tenants living there, but there also seems to be a fair bit of new money (property prices are, like everywhere in London, astronomical) which makes for a nice balanced feel.


I agree. I actually prefer areas with some proportion of students - feels more comfy to me. (and it preserves the area from unduly transformation)

Cheers,
A.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

What would readers say is the most 'trad' part of London? I would say places on the M4 corridor/Thames Valley, like Putney, Barnes, Fulham, Chiswick, Baron's Court,(bit too Aussie perhaps) etc

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Quick!

Anyone near Westminster Cathedral get here now!

There's a Trad outside.

White of hair & blue of button-down, cordovan belt & 'putty' coloured chinos. Can't see his shoes from here. Bet they're good.
He must be a bit chilly though...

Trad-Watch continues.

R.


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Anyone near Westminster Cathedral get here now!


Do you work at the Cathedral? I always found the Brompton Oratory an excellent place to spot Sloane Rangers, minor aristos, _rus in urbe_, etc.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Dear Old B.,

Bless you, no. My flat is right by the Cathedral.

R.


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## n/a (Sep 4, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by Old Brompton_
> I always found the Brompton Oratory an excellent place to spot Sloane Rangers, minor aristos, _rus in urbe_, etc.


Yes, very "high church". I wonder what is spent on incense per year.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

I watch the moive Four Minutes (the movie about Roger Bannister breaking the 4 minute mark in the mile) last night and the clothes in the movie were a very nice tidbit to focus on. The Oxford/Cambridge look of the early 1950's is very nice! It made me wish young college men knew how to dress today, as they did back then.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
> What would readers say is the most 'trad' part of London? I would say places on the M4 corridor/Thames Valley, like Putney, Barnes, Fulham, Chiswick, Baron's Court,(bit too Aussie perhaps) etc


I do know this at first hand, Hugh, but you're almost spot on. Definitely not Baron's Court (that's... er, linked to Earls Court - very mixed bag there). Fulham is more linked to the trendy Chelsea set. Chiswick's just plain suburban and the wrong side of the river, but for sheer head-on 'trad' you're really only talking south of the river (excluding Putney, of course, which is where one's domestics reside). True 'trads' live in the area between the curve of the river and Richmond Park. Barnes is definitely the king of the crop and the others - Mortlake, Kew, Richmond and Roehampton - are close runners. Even Twickenham is just the wrong side of the river. [^]


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Morning Vettriano Man!

Can I double-check terms here?
Are we talking 'Traditional English Trad' (A 'Hacketty/Cordings/Whatever' look) or my 'The Anglo take on American Trad' (The 'J.Simons' look)?

I need a better term for what I'm trying to talk about, I know. Any suggestions would be wonderful.

Russell

The Bull at Barnes was a good Jazz pub, wasn't it? Is it still?


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Morning Vettriano Man!
> 
> ...


A good question. I think we need to clear this one up. 'English trad' and 'American trad' are clear enough. The former caricatures as 'fogey'; the latter as what? preppy? Brooks Bros?

Trimmer


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Hello Sir - 

I'm trying to thrash this one out on Andersens thread with Horace.
PLEASE pitch in & help me out. You have a way with words & my skills lie only in odd jokes & swearing!

Russell


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Try this -

English Trad - Savile Row, all that.
American Trad - J. Press.

Then there is my 'J. Simons' area *which needs a name*, because my 'Trad' isn't 'Trad' at all - It's this glorious mutant!

Russell


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Oh please, Trimmer and Russell, with respect to our cousins over the pond I don't think we're talking about _American_ 'trad' here - Doesn't quite match up to ours, does it chaps? I mean, let's face it there's only room for one 'trad' on this tiny island! [^]

Not too sure about the 'fogey' label - that has many avenues of sartorial approach, but the look is probably more derived from what our father's, grand-father's and great-grandfather's wore - good quality old classic stuff built like a battleship, that never wears out and is riddled with genuine signs of wear and tear.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

I am afraid I am not familiar enough with American trad (although I know it when I see it) to be of much help.

I would suggest that English trad (I am deliberately not saying 'British' here)is something that has evolved, and indeed is still evolving, without being directly associated with any particular 'designer' or 'manufacturer' (although we know where to find it: Cordings etc). In that sense it is 'anonymous' like 'traditional' music. American trad (as I understand it) seems to be a style associated with particular shops and designers. 

What I think of as American trad clearly resembles, and mainly seems to derive from, English trad but (like the American language) it also shows other influences. I am not qualified to precisely identify these, but I suggest that (again as with the language) they might be German.

Trimmer


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks for that V.M. - I'm trying to thrash out terms here.
You, Hugh & Trimmer are our 'English Trads', then.
The American Trads are... 'American Trads', then.
Maybe Chris H., Andersen, and I are 'Anglo-Ivy-Stylists' or something.

It's the A.I.S (Gawd help us - Think of a name!)That my interest is in.
Who's going to ask John Simons what we should be called, apart from just 'His customers'!

Russell

So no Chowder from a Weejun for you, young man!
All the best.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Trimmer_
> 
> What I think of as American trad clearly resembles, and mainly seems to derive from, English trad but (like the American language) it also shows other influences. I am not qualified to precisely identify these, but I suggest that (again as with the language) *they might be German*.


I have a different perception.

In Northern and Western Germany, the upper classes traditionally try to dress in the English way (emphasis on "try"). In Southern Germany / Austria, the local loden style is prevalent. None of these influences observable in the U.S. at all, I suppose.

Additionally, I understand that you suggested there might be German influences in American English. Given that British English is just inarticulately pronounced German, I wouldn't necessarily agree with this remark either. 

Cheers,
A.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Albert_
> ... Given that British English is just inarticulately pronounced German, I wouldn't necessarily agree with this remark either.
> 
> Cheers,
> A.


Oh my, someone else who actually knows, or at leat acknowledges, that English is a Germanic language. Most Americans think it comes direct from Latin, if they think about it at all. [}]

(PS that's why I was encouraged to take all those years of Latin in school - it certainly wasn't for the content of the philosophy - does anyone even know what Epicurianism is? and I'm not talking about food!)


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Albert_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On the language I was thinking of more recent influences. Some of the small differences between American and British English appear to derive from German influence: 'fill out' rather than 'fill in' a form; 'visit with' rather than just 'visit'.

Trimmer


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Trimmer_
> On the language I was thinking of more recent influences. Some of the small differences between American and British English appear to derive from German influence: 'fill out' rather than 'fill in' a form; 'visit with' rather than just 'visit'.


Oh dear, thanks for pointing this out. I didn't know about these - they sound indeed like the typical errors of a native German. If you are a German speaker, your English teacher will beat these kind of phrases out of you in the first year. Because they are wrong. [^]

Strange that some Americans adapt our mistakes.

Cheers,
A.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Albert_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not suggesting that there is any 'mistake' involved. I was just making an observation about the differences between American and British English. These diferences exist so there must be an explanation for them.


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## Des Esseintes (Aug 16, 2005)

On the topics of German influence on American English and the regional variation in the "German Aristo" dress code:

The "fill out" example is quite striking as it could indeed be seen as a direct translation of the German "ausfuellen". I don't really understand the "visit with" example - could you explain?

Wrt the observed regional variations in the dress code of the German upper classes (I am sure some may want question whether such a thing does still exist at all): While there is some of it to be observed (more "Trachten" in Munich, more naval theme-related items in Hamburg, obviously), the "German Aristo" dress code, as I like to call it, has always combined the two influences - think tweed jacket and corduroys with a loden coat. 

I am not sure whether there is indeed a considerable influence of German style (whatever that may be - I certainly would have difficulties if I were asked to define it), however, in my observation, there is one very common misinterpretation of what constitutes "English classics" the Americans tend to share with the Germans, an that is the role of the blazer jacket. I believe that the vast majority of men in Germany would answer "a blazer" if asked to name the "most English" item in a man's wardrobe, and, I suppose, the answer could well be the same in the US. This, again, my observation only, is not at all mirrored by the much lower significance given to the blazer over here. See also Roetzel's or Rusche's books (providing the German perspective) - they both consider the blazer to be one of the most versatile items in a man's wardrobe whereas here in the UK, I would argue, the blazer is considered almost a bit difficult to wear: not formal enough for most events that would warrant a suit, a tad too formal and "dressed-up" for most others.

Just some thoughts...

dE

"...there is a difference between an urn and a chamber pot..."


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