# H. Freeman vs. Hickey Freeman



## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

Isn't H. Freeman a different company altogether? See this link:

https://www.hfreemanco.com/


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## cpac (Mar 25, 2005)

Yes it is. Completely different company.

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cpac*


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Hickey-Freeman manufactures suits in Rochester, NY:

H. Freeman used to be in Philly; now they make suits out of a factory in the north-central MD burg of Westminster, home of the MD Farm Museum, Western MD College, and site of a skirmish during Jeb Stuart's ride around the Union army on his way to Gettysburg (he was late in part b/c of the delay he suffered at Westminster):

https://www.hfreemanco.com/

They're both reputable and established firms that made their names producing the classic "American" style of suit (as described by Alan Flusser).

Both do not only OTR, but also have MTM programs. LS Menswear in Manhattan, spoken of very highly on this forum, is a merchant for H. Freeman MTM; so is the Patrick James men's store in SF, which Francis Bown tried and reviewed a few years back. His review also describes effectively the distinction between MTM and true bespoke tailoring:

https://www.bownsbespoke.com/patrickjames.htm

PJC in NoVa


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Between H. Freeman and Hickey Freeman, who makes a better suit quality wise? And, whose suits have more handwork? And, are H. Freemman's suits canvassed, fused or 1/2 canvassed, 1/2 fused? I know that with Hickey Freeman the Hand Tailored line and Black Label are canvassed, if memory serves correctly. The Grey Label is generally canvassed with some suits being 1/2 canvassed, 1/2 fused and a few fused, if memory serves correctly. The Brown Label is generally 1/2 and 1/2 with some fused and a few canvassed, if memory serves correctly. The entry level White Label I believe is generally fused with some 1/2 and 1/2, if memory serves correctly.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by PJC in NoVa_
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> Hickey-Freeman manufactures suits in Rochester, NY:
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> ...


PJC,

Do you know if there is anything to see at H.Freeman in Westminister? In other words, do they have a factory store or overstocks? I was not sure whether H. Freeman's business would produce overstocks.

I knew people who used to go Jos Bank's factory store in Hanover, back when their suits were still made in Maryland.

Thanks.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Tom Buchanan_
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It's a good question to which I don't know the answer. I suppose calling H. Freeman at 410-857-5774 or 800-468-0689 might yield information on that score.

PJC in NoVa

Edit:

They also have an email contact: [email protected]


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## KenCPollock (Dec 20, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Fashion TC_
> 
> Between H. Freeman and Hickey Freeman, who makes a better suit quality wise? And, whose suits have more handwork? And, are H. Freemman's suits canvassed, fused or 1/2 canvassed, 1/2 fused?


I think that this is impossible to answer as Hickey seems to have about 8-10 different quality levels; from not so great (like the Ltd. model it sells through "off-priced" outlets and Bloomingdale's) to really super ones like those that Bergdorf's carries. A few years ago Izzy at LS showed me a Hickey price list with at least 8-10 different price levels, from about $1,000 (a phony price, as the "off-priced" outlets sell them for about $600) to about $2,300. 
H. Freeman makes some fused and some 1/2 fused suits, but Izzy, and apparently others, can get really nice ones with no fusing. I would say, however, that H. Freeman's very best are not as quite as good as Hickey's very best, but the price is much lower too (MTM at Izzy's for not much more than Hickey's cheapest line).


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## harrycoverts (Jun 23, 2005)

PJC's suggestion of calling the factory is dead on. H. Freeman does offer factory sales...or at leat they did up until the last couple of years. Hickey-Freeman does as well, at the several outlet stores it has (Rochester outlet, connected to the factory, having the best selection; very helpful sales staff).

Have worn both brands...Hickey-Freeman is better constructed, better piece goods, etc., hands down. Also higher price point at the retail level.

Regards,

harrycoverts


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

I think that this is impossible to answer as Hickey seems to have about 8-10 different quality levels; from not so great (like the Ltd. model it sells through "off-priced" outlets and Bloomingdale's) to really super ones like those that Bergdorf's carries. A few years ago Izzy at LS showed me a Hickey price list with at least 8-10 different price levels, from about $1,000 (a phony price, as the "off-priced" outlets sell them for about $600) to about $2,300. 
H. Freeman makes some fused and some 1/2 fused suits, but Izzy, and apparently others, can get really nice ones with no fusing. I would say, however, that H. Freeman's very best are not as quite as good as Hickey's very best, but the price is much lower too (MTM at Izzy's for not much more than Hickey's cheapest line).
[/quote]

Thank you. If you don't mind me asking, what are the names of the different lines of Hickey Freeman clothing in order from cheapest and lowest quality to most expensive and highest quality?

I will most likely never be able to afford the Oxxford suits (as well as the Oxxford tuxedos, sports jackets, overcoats, dress pants and odd vests) that I love oh so very much (I would only buy Oxxford suits, tuxedos, sports jackets, overcoats, dress pants and odd vests made to measure and never off the rack because of the extrordinarily high prices) and probably not the higher or highest lines (i.e. higher or highest quality and more or most expensive) of the same clothing from Hickey Freeman, H. Freeman is probably the only way for me to go.

If this Izzy guy at LS Men's Clothing in NYC that everybody on Ask Andy's speaks so highly of can get me a MTM suit that is canvassed or MTM suits by H. Freeman that are canvassed at very reasonable prices, I won't even bother with Hart Schaffner Marx Gold Trumpeter since those suits are either fused or 1/2 canvassed, 1/2 fused.


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Fashion TC_
> If this Izzy guy at LS Men's Clothing in NYC that everybody on Ask Andy's speaks so highly of can get me a MTM suit that is canvassed or MTM suits by H. Freeman that are canvassed at very reasonable prices, I won't even bother with Hart Schaffner Marx Gold Trumpeter since those suits are either fused or 1/2 canvassed, 1/2 fused.[/font=Arial][/size=3][/black]


Aren't Hickey's and HSM's made in the same factory? I know that HartMarx owns both brands, but I thought they were also made together.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by NoVaguy_
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hickey freeman is made in rochester n.y.
h.s.m. is made in chicago ill.

Alex Di Pietropaolo


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## Son of Beau Brummell (Nov 5, 2004)

I. Hickey Freeman

Hickey Freeman (H-F) makes several lines of suits as well as suits for other vendors under license agreeements. Its output ranges from fully fused and fully machine made to fully canvased and hand tailored.

H-F is widely available across the country at the better and top end retailers. Its cloths and styling are excellent. It's a very well known brand, and people ask for it by name.

The most widely available H-F lines are the following:

1. H-F Collection. This is what is sold at Saks, Herzfeld, Peter Elliot, Barneys, the H-F Stores, etc. It is a half fused suit which is largely machine made. Many clothing salesman feel that this suit is the best value in the higher end clothing market. The average suit price runs $1,000-1,300, but some high end stores have a higher price point, such as $1,800.

2. Hand Tailored. This is a fully canvased suit which is hand tailored. It is offered at a very limited number of high-end retailers, such as the H-F Stores, Bergdorf, Barneys, etc. The price is comparable to Oxxford. The price is $2,400+. IMHO, Oxxford is better because it is only does hand tailored suits, and the hand tailored line is sort of a sideline for H-F. On an historicial note, all H-F suits used to be hand tailored, but H-F adopted more and more machine work over the years in order to keep prices reasonable and affordable for its market.

H-F also makes some other lines, such as "Hickey" which is featured at Bergdorf. Hickey is directed to the 20's crowd with a lower price point and no handwork. I recall Bloomingdale's carrying a lesser H-F line at about $900 a few years ago which was of much lower quality than the Collection line; it was dropped at Bloomies.

II. H. Freeman & Sons

H. Freeman is considered more of a middle of the road brand than H-F. It is not carried at some of the venues mentioned above.

H. Freeman is directed more toward the MTM market than the broad retail market of H-F. In other words, few people walk into Saks saying "show me an H. Freeman." I do not know a venue in NYC which sells it RTW.

I have a few H. Freeman MTM suits which I bought at LS. They have more handwork than H-F Collection. E.g., the H. Freeman is fully canvased and has hand sewing at the inside shoulder and armpit. The buttonholes are hand done.

III. Conclusion

I would give H. Freeman MTM an edge over H-F Collection if I were ordering MTM.

On RTW, H-F is the winner.

Mark Seitelman
www.seitelman.com


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

Son of Beau Brummell,

Thank you ! That was a very well written and informative post. On a side note, what did you pay at LS for the H Freeman suits? Waht type of cut are they ?


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rkipperman_
> 
> Son of Beau Brummell,
> 
> Thank you ! That was a very well written and informative post. On a side note, what did you pay at LS for the H Freeman suits? Waht type of cut are they ?


LS starts at $640 for a suit and $460 for a jacket, $200 for pants, for basic fabric or bend bolts. Prices go up from tehre but not sharply (Izzy practically passes the cost of fabric to you). There is a choice of cuts, mostly "American" - but waist supression can be acieved. Izzy is very good at suggesting and letting you know what can be done.

-Ex falso quodlibet-


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

It doesn't relate to suits, but I just got an email for the Hickey Freeman Custom Dress Shirt program.


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## harrycoverts (Jun 23, 2005)

Mark-

To compare the H-F Collection (Off-The-Rack) to H. Freeman's Made-To-Measure line is like comparing apples to oranges...or like comparing Oxxford to Hickey-Freeman. They are simply two very different types of suits.

You are right in that Hickey has two main lines, the Collection (fomerly Black Label) and Hand Tailored (fomerly Bespoke). They also make several other levels, based on vendor specifications, but so do most other suit manufacturers (such as H. Freeman in their Off-the-Rack suits). Measure the Hickey Collection line to the typical H. Freeman's OTR suit...no comparison, as Hickey has more hand work (collar, armholes, etc.), uses better piece goods and a bit less fusing. Again, compare the Hickey Hand Tailored line to H. Freeman's MTM...again, Hickey produces the better product. The H-F Hand Tailored suit is better compared to Oxxford (but not quite as good).

As for the lack of H. Freeman retail outlets in NYC (they are widely available throughout the U.S., off the rack...the made to measuare line is less prevalent), it is more than likely due to the lack of market, given the vast selection of alternative goods in NYC at a comparable price point.

Regards,

harrycoverts


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## Son of Beau Brummell (Nov 5, 2004)

Harrycovets, I agree with you in large part.

The Hand Tailored H-F is comparable to Oxxford or a similar, handmade suit. H. Freeman does not have a comparable, handmade line. (H. Freeman's parent company also owns Oxxford, therefore, it would make no sense for H. Freeman to have a competing line for the top of the top of the line market.)

However, based on my inspection of a typical H-F Collection sui against an H. Freeman MTM fully canvassed, H. Freeman has more handwork. The regular H-F suit (the Collection line) has become a machine made suit with less and less handwork through the years.

I agree that H-F RTW is better, and it is generally a function of the retailer's cloth and styling choices.

Mark Seitelman
www.seitelman.com


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Although Hickey Freeman's Hand Tailored is better than anything that H. Freeman makes, there's no question where you're getting more value for the money on MTM when buying from LS (compared to Hickey MTM from somewhere else). With H. Freeman MTM from LS, you would be getting what most people would consider a world-class suit, given the level of hand tailoring. Also, if you special order fabric for an H. Freeman MTM, the fabric could be just as good.


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## harrycoverts (Jun 23, 2005)

SMR-

I don't want to prolong this thread, nor do I have any vested interest in any of these companies, but please explain to me why Freeman's MTM is better than Hickey's hand-tailored line (which is arguably close to Oxxford). I have worn both...the fabrications of Freeman, even on the upper levels are not on par with Hickey's best, nor is the hand work equivalent (though to Mark's point, this has lessened over the years...but so has Freeman's). The stores and tailors that either carry or service both, to a person agree... Hickey above Freeman in quality, though Freeman is as good (if not better) in value. 

Haven't shopped at LS in years. What does Izzy do differently than the typical Freeman MTM merchant to make them better?

Regards,

harrycoverts


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## CharlieChannel (Mar 16, 2006)

Mr. S is right so I won't repeat.
Note "Hickey" is a new "younger" line of goods from
Hickey-Freeman. Some nice items, some bizarre patterns
and concepts. Hickey has a sample sale next week,
I don't know where I saw the post, but it will probably
show up on N.Y. magazine's website which
is www.nymetro.com.



> quote:_Originally posted by Son of Beau Brummell_
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> I. Hickey Freeman
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Charlie Channel-hunter


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## Son of Beau Brummell (Nov 5, 2004)

A final grace note.

I had some time to kill tonight waiting for the wife, and I looked at the H-F Collection suits in Bergdorf.

Based on my latest inspection regarding craftsmanship only:

H-F Collection H. Freeman MTM

machine pick stitching hand picking
on collar and lapels

machine buttonholes same

machine sewn undercollar
(the collarmelton) top edge is machine sewn
bottom edge is hand sewn

machine sewn armhole hand sewn

machine sewn shoulder hand sewn

half canvas full canvas

lining at double vents
machine sewn hand sewn

Based on my inspection and ownership of both of the above, I would give H-F a grade of B and H. Freeman MTM a grade of B+.

Please note this is not a comparison between the H-F "Hand Tailored" line and H. Freeman. Also, I am not claiming that H. Freeman is a great suit.

An interesting discussion of the purchase of an H. Freeman MTM suit is within www.bownsbespoke.com at the article on Patrick James. I corresponded once with Mr. Bown, and he wrote back that he likes his H. Freeman which has a different feel from his London bespoke suits.

Mark Seitelman
www.seitelman.com


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## sweetbooness (Feb 26, 2004)

I believe that handmade buttonholes are available as an option on H.Freeman mtm at extra cost.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Mr. Seitelman:

I'm tickled that you like that review by Francis Bown of his H. Freeman MTM suit from Patrick James Clothiers. It makes me feel vindicated in having linked to it. Mr. Bown's site seems to have been static for a long time. I first discovered him maybe 5 or 6 years ago when those posts were originally filed as articles for the now-defunct Reuters City website. What's he been up to lately? Surely there must be other adventures in the world of men's clothing for him to write about in his engaging style. Or is he a gentleman of independent means who penned those essays as a hobby and has now moved on to other uses of his time?

I would also like to say that I greatly appreciate your own posts. They're most incisive and usefully detailed. When next I get a chance to slip up to Manhattan, I'm definitely going to drop by LS to see what it's all about. May I ask: Should one call first to confirm that Izzy will be there and available to speak about the MTM options and prices?

Thank you again for your posts. They are terrific. All the best to you.

PJC in NoVa


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by PJC in NoVa_
> May I ask: Should one call first to confirm that Izzy will be there and available to speak about the MTM options and prices?
> 
> PJC in NoVa


You should. Izzy seems to be there all the time while shop is open, but keep in mind that this is a Jewish business that observes holidays, so they are closed all day on Saturday and close early on Friday. They are open on Sunday.

-Ex falso quodlibet-


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by hreljan_
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Good to know, and duly noted. Thanks.

PJC in NoVa


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by harrycoverts_
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> SMR-
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harrycoverts - My focus was on value (you might want to skim again). I did not say that H. Freeman MTM is as good as Hickey's Hand Tailored line; I actually said, "Hickey Freeman's Hand Tailored is better than anything that H. Freeman makes." So, much of my reasoning in actually in Son of Beau Brummell's posts analyzing the issue, although some members here and a few of my friends and co-workers over the years have also gotten hand sewn button holes on their H. Freeman MTM (I assume that his option is still available). The Hand Tailored Line (just saw it recently for the fist time--beautiful just like the now former Customized (Brown Label) line, from which I have two suits) is extremely beautiful. More supple and has a nicer drape than a H. Freeman MTM. I wouldn't quite put Hand Tailored in the same league with Oxxford, but they are extremely impressive.

As to what LS is offering, not many suit makers offer all these details on RTW much less on MTM for near the price that Izzy is charging. Izzy has been doing a nice job fitting people for MTM from what I've seen; when he started MTM years ago and was dealing with several makers, the fit was not as consistently great.

So if I saw some value in MTM for me, and wanted a very well made suit, I would definitely buy MTM from Izzy. I cannot say that I'd be eager to buy Hickey MTM based on their prices and what I've seen of their quality/hand tailoring over the past few years. If I wanted to move up on the MTM scale from LS's H. Freeman, I'd be more likely to go with Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece than Hickey.


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## Son of Beau Brummell (Nov 5, 2004)

I apologize in that my last post was intended to be a comparison in columns between H-F and H. Freeman. It all lined-up when I typed it, but I didn't realize that it would all scrambled together in final form.

In any event, H. Freeman has more handwork than H-F Collection.

Don't get me wrong. H-F Collection is a good suit, and H-F's offerings are most attractive. Its RTW is excellent. Two clothing professionals that I respect (Peter Elliot and a salesman for a competing brand) have told me on many occasions that H-F is the best value in the business. The salesman told me that if he had to buy his clothing (rather than get it comp from his employer), he would buy H-F.

Unfortunately, in order to keep the price competitive and reasonable, H-F has less and less handwork whereas it used to be handmade suit. Ira of Herzfeld told me that H-F used to hand sew the buttonholes on all is clothing. Overnight it switched to machine sewing without any announcement to its retailers. The H-F Hand Tailored line gives you an idea of what used to be the norm for H-F.

The H. Freeman MTM at LS is a good suit. Don't get me wrong, it's not an Oxxford. But on the average you're paying less than $1,000. I think that H. Freeman MTM at LS is a better deal than H-F MTM especially in view of the many disappointments expressed in the fora over H-F MTM.

Thank you, PJC, for your kind comments. I believe that Mr. Bown does update his website in that his entries on Davies & Son and "What to Look for in a Bespoke Suit" are new.

A few months ago I sent an e-mail to him and asked him about his H. Freeman MTM. He said that he liked it and that it had a different feel than his London bespokes. He also said that it is roomier and has a lower center of gravity.

Mr. Bown also has a related site on his travels. I believe that he is mostly a travel and food writer.

Good luck!

Mark Seitelman
www.seitelman.com


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

They have still not changed their information on their website about the buttonholes. From :

"Hand Tailoring 
The buttonholes of a Hickey Freeman coat are hand sewn with long-wear silk thread over a fine twist-free linen gimp. Hand-sewn buttonholes yield durability with a soft, flexible feel. 
Hickey Freeman's list of hand tailoring includes: Hand-fitted armhole and shoulder settings. Hand fitted vents. Hand sewn buttonholes and bar tacks. Neck hanger. Micro-hand-stitched label. Pressing and finishing of linings. Side and shoulder seams. Pockets. Collar corner and vent felling. All ensure that each and every garment achieves that perfect feel, the precise fit, and the lasting impression that makes a Hickey Freeman feel like a second skin."

I also still feel that HF makes a very nice suit. I'm glad that I stocked up on HF suits just before they changed their suit lines.


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## CharlieChannel (Mar 16, 2006)

Sale on "hickey" younger "edgier" tailored goods
and sportswear made by Hickey-Freeman.
Upstairs, room 1515
745 Fifth Ave. (office bldg.) near 57th St.
May 17-19, 9am-6pm. 50% off retail.

Charlie Channel-hunter


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## middlesex (Jul 13, 2008)

Hi. I'm a new poster here.

I've always been confused about the difference between H. Freeman and Hickey Freeman. Realizing that they were completely different companies explains alot of things.

The discovery of this thread via the search engine helped out alot! My thanks!


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

middlesex said:


> Hi. I'm a new poster here.
> 
> I've always been confused about the difference between H. Freeman and Hickey Freeman. Realizing that they were completely different companies explains alot of things.
> 
> The discovery of this thread via the search engine helped out alot! My thanks!


Glad to hear that my question helped you as well.


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## KenCPollock (Dec 20, 2003)

One other difference. If you want a really trad suit, with a perfect natural shoulder, you are more likely to be able to get it with an H. Freeman ordered by Izzy than from anything from H-F.
After all, the main "real" trad makers or sellers for 50 years or more were mainly Norman Hilton, Southwick (Grieco Bros), BB (when it had its own factory), J. Press (which used Southwick and others), Chipp (which used Norman Hilton and others) and H. Freeman & Son. Although H-F and Martin Greenfield always had their trad models, their main emphasis was elsewhere and I never thought that they got their trad lines quite right.


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## shirtguy (Oct 12, 2006)

MARTIN GRENNFIELD HAS BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS TRUST ME HE HAS IT DOWN TO A SCIENCE.


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## eadler (Feb 5, 2010)

I just searched google for H Freeman and found this page. Im looking for made to measure and heard good things about H Freeman. I've read a lot about LS Mens Clothing in this forum and wondering if anyone has personally had an H Freeman suit made and what the experience and quality was like. I see on his website lsmenslcothing.com that he's having a sale on H Freeman. Any info would be greatly appreciated.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

eadler said:


> I just searched google for H Freeman and found this page. Im looking for made to measure and heard good things about H Freeman. I've read a lot about LS Mens Clothing in this forum and wondering if anyone has personally had an H Freeman suit made and what the experience and quality was like. I see on his website lsmenslcothing.com that he's having a sale on H Freeman. Any info would be greatly appreciated.


LS has a great reputation because LS has earned it. Quite a few members here have purchased suits there, I still have the first jacket I bought there over 20 years ago. If you go back to post 12 in this thread you will find a post about LS MTM H Freeman by Mark Seitelman, who, by the way, has an extensive wardrobe of bespoke suits from top tailors. Unfortunately the search feature here will not respond to "LS" but it will find threads by searching for "Izzy", the owner's name. You will find quite a few threads about LS by searching this way.


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

You are a wealth of knowledge, ark.


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