# Proof that Obama was born in Kenya



## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

The Kenyan ambassador on a radio show stating that Obama's birthplace in Kenya is "already well known"....thoughts?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Even Fox News says that the documentation states he was born in America.

Arguments like these are similar to "crying wolf." You have the right to throw this nonsense around, but it gives people reasons not to take the legitimate problems Obama is causing seriously.

You are doing your cause a lot more harm than good with this foolishness.

Stick to substantive things that are true.

Do you even know if this guy knows what he's talking about in general?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

It's good to see Lou Dobbs got a new job.

Announcement of the birth of Barack Obama on 8/4/1961 was published by his parents in not one but both major Honolulu newspapers:

https://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...obamabirth.php
​


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

The problem I have is that if this was the Ambassador from Syria saying he had a document showing Cheney was bidding for oil rights in Iraq prior to the invasion you would never let go.

Whether BHO was born in Kenya or not - that train has left the building. 

Let's just say I think he was born in Kenya ... I would never want him removed at this point it's too much chaos.

These people have a right to their opinion.

For decades there have been people who think the moon landing was faked. Do we have a name like 'birthers' or 'teabaggers' for them? 

The difference is, you can actually go to KSC and see the evidence of the moon landing. Obama will not release his medical records, his academic records and many other records. That's maybe his choice, but it breeds this kind of speculation and skepticism. Maybe he's "up to something" and people just want to figure out what it is?

Nothing Dobbs or the OP said was 'untrue.' The reaction is telling. The fact that a person has to be "shouted down" or "taken off the air" for reporting that there are a lot of people (including the Kenyan Ambassador) that think the President is not a natural born citizen and the President is playing coy about it. It's a legitimate story. And people attacking the messengers are doing their cause more harm then good. 

Maybe the OP doesn't like Fox News. Maybe he thinks it's biased in favor of Obama? His posts have been critical of Palin, Bush, and the GOP, while others have been pleasant to Obama. Which cause is he hurting exactly? The skeptical and independent thinker cause?!


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## mbebeau (Feb 6, 2009)

So, you mean he really is a Kenyan/Muslim member of the Communist party with ties to Osama bin Laden?!?! Wait, Osama and Obama only have one letter difference, that PROVES it!!!! Well, we all know you have to believe the YouTube as a source of crediable data.


If you investigate and criticize his policies, you will have MORE than enough there to keep you busy for 4 years so you don't need to focus on this.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

mbebeau said:


> So, you mean he really is a Kenyan/Muslim member of the Communist party with ties to Osama bin Laden?!?! Wait, Osama and Obama only have one letter difference, that PROVES it!!!! Well, we all know you have to believe the YouTube as a source of crediable data.
> 
> 
> If you investigate and criticize his policies, you will have MORE than enough there to keep you busy for 4 years so you don't need to focus on this.


As we 9 years later still hear about Bush, the Texas Air Guard, and rumored DUIs and cocaine abuse ... fascinating advice.

YouTube is not a source, it's a distribution medium. The Radio Show was the source. Heck, it's probabaly even a spoof.

Ought to be a simple thing to argue effectively. The reactionary posts are telling... very telling...

I never gave the Kenyan-born-Obama thing any real notice, but I have to say the "objections" are so over-the-top it makes me wonder what some of you are so scared of.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I should add that I'm also fascinated by the arguments that imply "Proving he was born in Hawaii, proves he can't be a muslim or a socialist." 

Really? ic12337:


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

ksinc said:


> For decades there have been people who think the moon landing was faked. Do we have a name like 'birthers' or 'teabaggers' for them?


I just settle for the general pejorative "Looney Toons!!"


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

FrankDC said:


> Announcement of the birth of Barack Obama on 8/4/1961 was published by his parents in not one but both major Honolulu newspapers:
> 
> ​


That's just what they want you to think!!


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

This has nothing to do with Fox News or Lou Dobbs. This man is an ambassador, not just some average Joe. He is obviously proud that Obama was born there from the interview. Comparing this to the moon landing is absurd.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

As Ksinc said, it would be disastrous to the Nation if it turns out that Barry was truly born in Kenya so I hope it is not the case. The point that some people seem to miss is the fact that he has not come out publicly to show his true BC. That would definitely shut up naysayers and end this festering issue because as much people want to push it under the rug, it keeps creeping back up.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Bermuda said:


> This has nothing to do with Fox News or Lou Dobbs. This man is an ambassador, not just some average Joe. He is obviously proud that Obama was born there from the interview. Comparing this to the moon landing is absurd.


What's absurd is clinging to a year-old video like it's some kind of ongoing news.

Read. And learn:

https://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp


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## aelred (May 26, 2007)

Quoting Snopes on this is a red herring, as it's been proven Hawaii issued different forms of paperwork at that time.

But I agree, the train has left the building. I doubt even the SCOTUS would overturn anything as the domestic turmoil would be tremendous.

He's enough of a buffoon as it is.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I just settle for the general pejorative "Looney Toons!!"


Ha! :icon_smile_big:


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Bermuda said:


> This has nothing to do with Fox News or Lou Dobbs. This man is an ambassador, not just some average Joe. He is obviously proud that Obama was born there from the interview. Comparing this to the moon landing is absurd.


Your reading and comprehension skills are lacking.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> What's absurd is clinging to a year-old video like it's some kind of ongoing news.
> 
> Read. And learn:
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp


I clicked on that actually thinking you had something that would discuss the video - either saying he is a fake or saying the call was a spoof.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

aelred said:


> Quoting Snopes on this is a red herring, as it's been proven Hawaii issued different forms of paperwork at that time.


So account for Obama's birth notices in the two Honolulu newspapers in 1961. Wait, don't tell us. The Honolulu hospital where he was born is lying, his parents smuggled him in from Kenya and published birth notices, knowing full well that 40 years later he'd run for president.

As Paul Simon said, "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."

Truer words have never been uttered.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> So account for Obama's birth notices in the two Honolulu newspapers in 1961. Wait, don't tell us. The Honolulu hospital where he was born is lying, his parents smuggled him in from Kenya and published birth notices, knowing full well that 40 years later he'd run for president.
> 
> As Paul Simon said, "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."
> 
> Truer words have never been uttered.


Frank you're offering a distraction not an argument.

How do you account for the radio show's interview?

Some would say you think Paul Simons words are the truest ever uttered because you see yourself in them.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Frank you're offering a distraction not an argument.
> 
> How do you account for the radio show's interview?


There's nothing to account for. How does some guy claiming a "shrine" exists in Kenya equate to proof that Obama was born there?

Meanwhile I've given a hard paper trail that documents Obama's birth in Hawaii, in 1961.

Rational people can discern evidence from nonsense.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> There's nothing to account for. How does some guy claiming a "shrine" exists in Kenya equate to proof that Obama was born there?
> 
> Meanwhile I've given a hard paper trail that documents Obama's birth in Hawaii, in 1961.
> 
> Rational people can discern evidence from nonsense.


I didn't say it rose to the level of proof. Rational people can discuss things as they are presented.

As I said previously, I think if an ambassador said something that supported your own suspicions you would not refer to him as just "some guy?" For example, Joe Wilson?

He's an ambassador. He has to be accounted for IMHO.

Maybe he should be recalled as a wack-job, but to just ignore it is IMHO not handling the issue maturely which seems to be what you are arguing for and I would agree.

I think rational and discerning people of good judgment should all agree that if & when an official person says something like has been said it needs to be addressed one way or the other, but why would you not address your criticism to the Ambassador instead of those reading or reporting his comment, is what baffles me? Shouldn't your issue be with this so-called Ambassador?

If the guy is unhinged (and this may be evidence of that) then something should be done about it. But blaming Bermuda for posting it seems inconsistent.


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## pier0188 (Jun 2, 2009)

ksinc said:


> I didn't say it rose to the level of proof. Rational people can discuss things as they are presented.
> 
> As I said previously, I think if an ambassador said something that supported your own suspicions you would not refer to him as just "some guy?" For example, Joe Wilson?
> 
> ...


Rational people can see "proof" such as this and dismiss it out of hand when considering *ALL* other "proof", applying common sense tools such as Occam's Razor. However, people simply cannot get over the mound of factual evidence they are wrong about Obama. Thus, they continue an underground campaign to undermine Obama, using such silly items such as this, allying themselves with the fringe members of society.

Seriously, why would you even want to be associated with that nutball Orly Taitz? She can't even put together a coherent argument, much like most of the "birthers" out there. They simply present their "evidence", and, when faced with a mound of facts, run away to snipe again from a new position.

It's really a sad state of affairs.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Well again, this story is a year old and it has no legs. Yet some people prefer to look like complete idiots rather than admit the truth.

Even FreeRepublic managed, somehow, to include the ambassador's clarification of his story in their reporting:

"Subsequently, the Kenyan ambassador said that he meant Obama's father was born in Kenya. However, when pressed about Obama's birth place: 

"I don't know," he said with a tone of irritation. "You should ask your government. I know his father is Kenyan."


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> Well again, this story is a year old and it has no legs. Yet some people prefer to look like complete idiots rather than admit the truth.
> 
> Even FreeRepublic managed, somehow, to include the ambassador's clarification of his story in their reporting:
> 
> ...


See there, I knew you could respond rationally if you were pushed. 

That should have been your original reply. Or "he's clearly talking about Barack Obama, Sr. in the clip", but thanks for the exercise.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

pier0188 said:


> Rational people can see "proof" such as this and dismiss it out of hand when considering *ALL* other "proof", applying common sense tools such as Occam's Razor. However, people simply cannot get over the mound of factual evidence they are wrong about Obama. Thus, they continue an underground campaign to undermine Obama, using such silly items such as this, allying themselves with the fringe members of society.
> 
> Seriously, why would you even want to be associated with that nutball Orly Taitz? She can't even put together a coherent argument, much like most of the "birthers" out there. They simply present their "evidence", and, when faced with a mound of facts, run away to snipe again from a new position.
> 
> It's really a sad state of affairs.


I'm not associated with anyone. What's the basis for your question?

Only a fool would dismiss a video without the seeing the clarification Frank finally offered; just as only a fool would jump to a conclusion based on the video.

Rational people are have a healthy level of skepticism and ask substantive follow up questions ... just saying.

I fail to see the justification for an "underground campaign to undermine Obama." That seems pretty irrational. There's clearly people that don't like him or his policies. There is no reason for it to be underground; is there? Why would people have to be underground about political disagreement? Why must you cast your point in conspiratorial and condescending tones like that? There must be a reason? What are you so afraid of if you are the one being rational?


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

its true
i believe obama was born in africa not america
i believe weapons of mass destruction were found in iraq
i believe the world is flat 

all evidence to say it is obama is a us citizen, that wmd were not found and that the earth is round is a vast left wing plot to take over the world and make america a socialist state where we all have to read pravda, where the government wants to controll health care, own the banks and car companies and kill everyones grandmother while forcing all pregenancies to end in abortion, think your free - think again LOL


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Not bad for an early attempt at satire; You can develop some subtlety. 

Actually though, if you think it through, maybe the world is just supposed to be round, but is not. Frank Sutton (Sargeant Carter) on Gomer Pyle should have a round head, but his haircut makes it appear flat. Who is to say that the flatness we experience in this regard is not the truth, at least as we temporarily know it.

Certainly, it does not take a great leap to apply this logic to the earth is round/flat discussion. 

Also, in the famous Seinfeld episode, Jerry was lying; it really WAS a pick, not a scratch.


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

ksinc said:


> See there, I knew you could respond rationally if you were pushed.
> 
> That should have been your original reply. Or "he's clearly talking about Barack Obama, Sr. in the clip", but thanks for the exercise.


Some things aren't worthy of response. Crazy rants from birthers are one such case.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

NoVaguy said:


> Some things aren't worthy of response. Crazy rants from birthers are one such case.


#1 There wasn't a crazy rant from a birther.
#2 If there was, then maybe you are right it's not worthy of a response, but if he chooses to respond he should do so rationally


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

young guy said:


> its true
> i believe obama was born in africa not america
> i believe weapons of mass destruction were found in iraq
> i believe the world is flat
> ...


don't get carried away


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

ksinc said:


> I'm not associated with anyone. What's the basis for your question?
> 
> Only a fool would dismiss a video without the seeing the clarification Frank finally offered; just as only a fool would jump to a conclusion based on the video.
> 
> ...


I'll agree with this much: there's definitely nothing underground about the animosity Republicans are feeling these days. I had to go through four pages of Google hits, every one of which were truly whacko right-wing rant sites about this Obama birth nonsense, before I found the one FreeRepublic article that bothered to include the ambassador's clarification.

Keep that in mind as y'all rant about liberal bias in the media. When Hillary coined the term "VRWC" she was not kidding.


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

ksinc said:


> #1 There wasn't a crazy rant from a birther.


Hearsay is not evidence of anything. The person purporting to use the hearsay is a birther. Since hearsay is nothing, it's just another crazy rant by a birther.



> #2 If there was, then maybe you are right it's not worthy of a response, but if he chooses to respond he should do so rationally


There's nothing there. The response is sufficient.

edit: By sufficient, I mean, nobody needs to account for anything, because a hearsay statement doesn't prove anything, and doesn't need to be accounted for. Therefore, your entire chain of argument with FrankDC fails and is immaterial and irrelevant.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> I'll agree with this much: there's definitely nothing underground about the animosity Republicans are feeling these days. I had to go through four pages of Google hits, every one of which were truly whacko right-wing rant sites about this Obama birth nonsense, before I found the one FreeRepublic article that bothered to include the ambassador's clarification.
> 
> Keep that in mind as y'all rant about liberal bias in the media. When Hillary coined the term "VRWC" she was not kidding.


DYOH has its own rewards! 

Why should Republican animosity be underground; Democratic animosity never is? The Bush haters weren't substantiated either. If your complaint is the GOP bloggers are following the DEM bloggers down the rabbit hole - then I have to think it's a characteristic of bloggers not REPs or DEMs. I see a lot of crazy independent and libertarian blogs too.

Honestly, Frank, I know you aren't this sensitive. Que pasa? Why are you overreacting? Do you have a separate beef with Bermuda?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

NoVaguy said:


> Hearsay is not evidence of anything. The person purporting to use the hearsay is a birther. Since hearsay is nothing, it's just another crazy rant by a birther.
> 
> There's nothing there. The response is sufficient.
> 
> edit: By sufficient, I mean, nobody needs to account for anything, because a hearsay statement doesn't prove anything, and doesn't need to be accounted for. Therefore, your entire chain of argument with FrankDC fails and is immaterial and irrelevant.


Frank finally responded as he should have originally to Bermuda with a material and relevant reply. All I did was push him to do it.

As for the rest: Try to get some air. Maybe reread the thread and note the OP and the original replies.

There was no chain of argument between me and Frank trying to prove anything. There was no rant. And I'm certainly not a birther. You're 0-4. So, other than being totally wrong and making vague misrepresentations you've added nothing other than to display your own lack of judgment. Congratulations.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Frank finally responded as he should have originally to Bermuda with a material and relevant reply. All I did was push him to do it.


So I'd like to hear Bermuda's response to the info, not yours.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> So I'd like to hear Bermuda's response to the info, not yours.


Indeed. So would I.


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

ksinc said:


> Frank finally responded as he should have originally to Bermuda with a material and relevant reply. All I did was push him to do it.
> 
> As for the rest: Try to get some air. Maybe reread the thread and note the OP and the original replies.
> 
> There was no chain of argument between me and Frank trying to prove anything. There was no rant. And I'm certainly not a birther. You're 0-4. So, other than being totally wrong and making vague misrepresentations you've added nothing other than to display your own lack of judgment. Congratulations.


Where did this 0-4 come from? It's not a good sign that you've gotten to the point where you are counting things in a fictional scorecard.

Also, I never accused you of being a birther and I don't know where you got that or why you're getting upset about a nonexistent accusation from me. Additionally, I never accused you of ranting; that was the OP as well.

The key takeaway is that you failed to recognized the hearsay, and you should have picked up on that right away. It was the first thing I noticed. Addressing hearsay arguments is just a waste of time, and pushing others to addressing them is just shoddy argumentation. You should be pushing the OP to come up with good evidence for the original proposition, not pushing people to address hearsay-backed arguments.

In any event, think of this as a teachable moment. Hearsay is a waste of time.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

ok...after looking at the information provided by Frank I suspect that there could have been something lost in translation in the radio conversation with the Kenyan ambassador. After all, English is most likely not his first language, and he could have thought that the disc jockey was referring to Barack's father and not the president, since they both have the same name....I also want to let others know that I did not hear much about the specific details of this "birther" argument last year prior to the election, as I was focusing on other candidates' campaigns.....


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## theCardiffGiant (Sep 16, 2007)

*yawn*


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Bermuda said:


> ok...after looking at the information provided by Frank I suspect that there could have been something lost in translation in the radio conversation with the Kenyan ambassador. After all, English is most likely not his first language, and he could have thought that the disc jockey was referring to Barack's father and not the president, since they both have the same name....I also want to let others know that I did not hear much about the specific details of this "birther" argument last year prior to the election, as I was focusing on other candidates' campaigns.....


Lou Dobbs spent many weeks talking about nothing else. Even after Obama's birth in Hawaii was confirmed and documented, Dobbs just wouldn't let it go. Just bizarre.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Obama was born in Honolulu Hawaii according to Wikipedia.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> Lou Dobbs spent many weeks talking about nothing else. Even after Obama's birth in Hawaii was confirmed and documented, Dobbs just wouldn't let it go. Just bizarre.


one more reason he doesnt work at cnn anymore


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> That's just what they want you to think!!


Boy those people thought ahead...the very lack of any evidence is clear evidence of a conspiracy! :icon_smile_wink:


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## PetroLandman (Apr 21, 2006)

*Non-issue*

with me, but I am puzzled by the fact that Mr Obama has spent, at last estimate, $1.6 million USD fighting suits in various courts which ask simply that he release an authentic birth certificate. Coupled with his failure to produce any of his academic records, it gives one pause.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

PetroLandman said:


> with me, but I am puzzled by the fact that Mr Obama has spent, at last estimate, $1.6 million USD fighting suits in various courts which ask simply that he release an authentic birth certificate. Coupled with his failure to produce any of his academic records, it gives one pause.


Source?


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Yo Petrol, source?

And just what are the gounds upon which you would sue another for failure to show you their birth ceertificate?​


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> Source?


faux news?


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## PetroLandman (Apr 21, 2006)

Don't have time to find more current $ figure, but check Tampa Tribune, etal. Regardless of dollar figure, why would a president refuse to open up not only his birth certificate but also his academic record and other data per all other modern presidents. Hell, even Al Gore's academic records such as it is was released.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

PetroLandman said:


> Don't have time to find more current $ figure, but check Tampa Tribune, etal. Regardless of dollar figure, why would a president refuse to open up not only his birth certificate but also his academic record and other data per all other modern presidents. Hell, even Al Gore's academic records such as it is was released.


his birth cert has been explained many times and is a none issue except for those who deny reality and fact, as far as the academic record, why should this be important, i think its as important as W's unexplained time away from the texas air national guard - its over


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

PetroLandman said:


> Don't have time to find more current $ figure, but check Tampa Tribune, etal.


I've checked, and there's no sign of your claim either at the Tampa Tribune or "etal".

Maybe you heard it from the same source that claimed president Obama is not a U.S. citizen.



PetroLandman said:


> Regardless of dollar figure, why would a president refuse to open up not only his birth certificate but also his academic record and other data per all other modern presidents. Hell, even Al Gore's academic records such as it is was released.


His certificate of birth has been available for viewing since June 2008:



And as for Obama's school transcript, read his book, "Dreams from My Father". There's your answer.


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## a4audi08 (Apr 27, 2007)

FrankDC said:


> I've checked, and there's no sign of your claim either at the Tampa Tribune or "etal".
> 
> Maybe you heard it from the same source that claimed president Obama is not a U.S. citizen.
> 
> ...


last i checked it was actually $59M - all of it taxpayer funds originally appropriated for veteran's care!!! i'll try and find the link sometime next week


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## Nicesuit (Apr 5, 2007)

young guy said:


> his birth cert has been explained many times and is a none issue except for those who deny reality and fact, as far as the academic record, why should this be important, i think its as important as W's unexplained time away from the texas air national guard - its over


Only in the fantasy land of your pseudo intelligence can you talk about this as a non-issue. The case is going to court in January of 2010. His grandmother says he was born there, there is a birth certificate with his footprint on it from Kenya, and he's spent a truck load of cash trying to cover it up. It will be interesting to see how it plays out for Hussein. Perhaps it will all be proven false. If it isn't he should be tossed out on his Neo-Communist ass.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

Nicesuit said:


> Only in the fantasy land of your pseudo intelligence can you talk about this as a non-issue. The case is going to court in January of 2010. His grandmother says he was born there, there is a birth certificate with his footprint on it from Kenya, and he's spent a truck load of cash trying to cover it up. It will be interesting to see how it plays out for Hussein.


it's been thrown out of cour a couple times already, it will be again


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Nicesuit said:


> It will be interesting to see how it plays out for Hussein. Perhaps it will all be proven false. If it isn't he should be tossed out on his Neo-Communist ass.


Wow, you is one angry little muppet. Pace yourself. There are 37 months yet to go.
​


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Nicesuit said:


> Only in the fantasy land of your pseudo intelligence can you talk about this as a non-issue. The case is going to court in January of 2010. His grandmother says he was born there, there is a birth certificate with his footprint on it from Kenya, and he's spent a truck load of cash trying to cover it up.


The suit has already been thrown out as frivilous and without merit.

The Kenyan birth certificate has already been exposed as a hoax (it wasn't even a serious attempt at a hoax).

And we're still waiting for someone to provide a reference for your last claim.

It must not be easy to be a Republican these days, but you've got no one other than yourselves to blame. Your party had Congress for 12 years and the Executive Branch for 8 years, and never before has our country gone to hell in a handbasket so quickly. And then you turn around and call Obama a Communist.

Obama was not the one who sold our country down the Yellow River. That was Nixon, Reagan and Reagan's coattails (Bush I/II).


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

FrankDC said:


> Your party had Congress for 12 years and the Executive Branch for 8 years, and never before has our country gone to hell in a handbasket so quickly.


Fact: Democrats have been in control of the House of Representatives and the Senate since 2007.

Fact: Most of the going "to hell in a handbasket" has happened since then.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Pentheos said:


> Fact: Democrats have been in control of the House of Representatives and the Senate since 2007.
> 
> Fact: Most of the going "to hell in a handbasket" has happened since then.


And the hits keep on coming.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> Fact: Democrats have been in control of the House of Representatives and the Senate since 2007.
> 
> Fact: Most of the going "to hell in a handbasket" has happened since then.


That last claim is nothing short of absurd. Bush and his Republican Congress had the worst job creation record since Herbert Hoover, and they turned a $5.6 trillion long-term surplus left by Clinton into a $2 trillion deficit in just eight years.

By any measure you wish to use, whether domestic or foreign policy, Bush's record is disastrous.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Pentheos said:


> Fact: Most of the going "to hell in a handbasket" has happened since then [2007].


That _hell in a handbasket_ thing, shouldn't the hell be Iraq and the handbasket the conveyance home for the squished up bodies of the almost 5,000 Americans who called it quits there?
​


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I wonder if his middle name Hussein has something to do with his background?


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## PetroLandman (Apr 21, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> I've checked, and there's no sign of your claim either at the Tampa Tribune or "etal".
> 
> Maybe you heard it from the same source that claimed president Obama is not a U.S. citizen.
> 
> ...


First of all, it IS in the Tampa Tribune. Just because you can't find it doesn't mean it is not there. Try again.

Second, how can reading his book be an answer. If you or I, for that matter, write a book, is everything in it immediately true? It seems to me that almost any book must be at least to some degree be self-serving. 'He said so' is not proof in my world, but it must be in yours. Quite pathetic. As far as I know, every modern president has opened his academic records - GWB did - and the fact that a president would jealously guard his is simply something odd.

Your demand for sources from me is ludicrous if you simply accept Mr Obamas book as a source of his claim. I'm disappointed as you are usually much more intelligent and honest.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

FrankDC said:


> That last claim is nothing short of absurd. Bush and his Republican Congress had the worst job creation record since Herbert Hoover, and they turned a $5.6 trillion long-term surplus left by Clinton into a $2 trillion deficit in just eight years.
> 
> By any measure you wish to use, whether domestic or foreign policy, Bush's record is disastrous.


Your system of measurement seems to involve unreal numbers. What is a "long-term surplus"? And could we use that to calculate "jobs saved"? I'd love to see that graph.

And frankly, I'd be glad to return to the days of $400 billion deficits. We're up to what, $2 trillion for 2009?

Is this wrong?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

PetroLandman said:


> First of all, it IS in the Tampa Tribune. Just because you can't find it doesn't mean it is not there. Try again.
> 
> Second, how can reading his book be an answer. If you or I, for that matter, write a book, is everything in it immediately true? It seems to me that almost any book must be at least to some degree be self-serving. 'He said so' is not proof in my world, but it must be in yours. Quite pathetic. As far as I know, every modern president has opened his academic records - GWB did - and the fact that a president would jealously guard his is simply something odd.
> 
> Your demand for sources from me is ludicrous if you simply accept Mr Obamas book as a source of his claim. I'm disappointed as you are usually much more intelligent and honest.


The rule of debate is that the person who makes a claim is responsible for backing it up with references. I've already done Bermuda's homework for him on the "birther" issue, now I'm supposed to do the same for Obama's school record?

Look, read Obama's book and get back to us. You're making a complete fool of yourself.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

The numbers aren't wrong, they're simply the parting gifts from the last administration. Just two items (the $1.5 trillion Bush-Paulson extortion that occurred last October, and Bush's military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan) account for over $2.5 trillion in spending.


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## PetroLandman (Apr 21, 2006)

*Rules?*



FrankDC said:


> The rule of debate is that the person who makes a claim is responsible for backing it up with references. I've already done Bermuda's homework for him on the "birther" issue, now I'm supposed to do the same for Obama's school record?
> 
> Look, read Obama's book and get back to us. You're making a complete fool of yourself.


YOU are the party who pointed to his own self-serving book as PROOF that his academic record was 'out there'. So prove it. His simply claiming it does not prove anything. Why must you continually defend Mr Obama? Has he ever done anything wrong in your mind? Oh, wait.....waaaah, waaaah, waaah, but, but Bush did it! Even Maureen Dowd has seen the light on this guy.

I simply would like for him to be as open and as transparent as other people who ask us for support. After all, he promised us the most open, transparent administration ever. Given that, why would he send lawyers to make certain that we not know about him? I am not condemning him, only curious as to why he gets a pass on accoutability. I mentioned in a previous post that the birth certificate is not a big deal to me, but it sure seems to be to HIM. Curious.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

FrankDC said:


> The numbers aren't wrong, they're simply the parting gifts from the last administration. Just two items (the $1.5 trillion Bush-Paulson extortion that occurred last October, and Bush's military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan) account for over $2.5 trillion in spending.


Such a predictable response. Bush is like a Shamwow, what can't he do? (Or, rather, be blamed for?)

Anyways, you still haven't explained Clinton's $5.6 trillion "long-term surplus". I'm sure you'd agree with me that he should have used some of that money to help out the country that was in a recession when he left office.


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## Nicesuit (Apr 5, 2007)

young guy said:


> it's been thrown out of cour a couple times already, it will be again


It's going to trial dunce...


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

PetroLandman said:


> YOU are the party who pointed to his own self-serving book as PROOF that his academic record was 'out there'.


No, that wasn't my claim. Your question was:

"Why would a president refuse to open up not only his birth certificate but also his academic record"

and I said the book will answer your question.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

This thing was settled LONG before the election.



Yet the lunatic hits just keep on coming.


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## PetroLandman (Apr 21, 2006)

*And again,*



FrankDC said:


> No, that wasn't my claim. Your question was:
> 
> "Why would a president refuse to open up not only his birth certificate but also his academic record"
> 
> and I said the book will answer your question.


His simply telling a story does not exactly amount to proof of anything and to believe that it does is weak. I don't doubt that he was born in Hawaii or Kenya. I just point out that a person, even a president, can veer from truth. After all, we had a president who didn't have sex with that woman.. Monica Lewinsky. Please don't tell me that the mere statement is self-proving.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

PetroLandman said:


> His simply telling a story does not exactly amount to proof of anything and to believe that it does is weak. I don't doubt that he was born in Hawaii or Kenya. I just point out that a person, even a president, can veer from truth. After all, we had a president who didn't have sex with that woman.. Monica Lewinsky. Please don't tell me that the mere statement is self-proving.


If you read the book, you'll realize it does answer your question. But to not read it, and also claim it can't amount to proof, simply makes you look either lazy or really, really stupid.

What's the worst-case scenario in your mind, as to why Obama hasn't released his school record? I'll bet you a pair of Pantherella socks the book will confirm your scenario. Yet all you can do is rant that Obama's own writing can't be a proof of anything.

Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you?


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## PetroLandman (Apr 21, 2006)

mrkleen said:


> This thing was settled LONG before the election.
> 
> Yet the lunatic hits just keep on coming.


The point some who you, looking down from Mt Olympus, would call lunatics, would make is that even the link you posted does not actually show us the actual birth certificate. It seems to show a birth certificate, but not an entire document. The website states that their employees have seen and photographed the instrument, but they do not post it.

The uneasiness some feel comes from the fact that a person who asks for the trust of the public has resisted and continues to resist the simple publication of the certificate. Many do not doubt its authenticity or existence but are put off by the perceived attitude of entitlement. Many would be more trustful of the man if he stood up, like a man, and said, "You know what? This is a distraction and to end all conjecture, I am publishing my birth certificate post haste." He has not done that and, frankly, if it were George Bush, the outrage would be palpable.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Can you guys imagine the frenzy that would have gripped the media if there was a rumor that somewhere existed documents critical of Bush's guard service?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> Can you guys imagine the frenzy that would have gripped the media if there was a rumor that somewhere existed documents critical of Bush's guard service?


Heh, ask Dan Rather that question.

The same people who saw through that nonsense elected Bush to two terms of office. These are the same people who elected Obama despite his being an Islamic terrorist and a Communist, with a wife who preached racism from her masters thesis.


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## PetroLandman (Apr 21, 2006)

*Wow.*



FrankDC said:


> If you read the book, you'll realize it does answer your question. But to not read it, and also claim it can't amount to proof, simply makes you look either lazy or really, really stupid.
> 
> What's the worst-case scenario in your mind, as to why Obama hasn't released his school record? I'll bet you a pair of Pantherella socks the book will confirm your scenario. Yet all you can do is rant that Obama's own writing can't be a proof of anything.
> 
> Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you?


I have looked at all of the posts I have put up here and I cannot find the part where I say I haven't read his book. Please point that out to me because I clearly remember reading the book my sister sent me for my birthday. (She is very liberal and actually believes that Obama should not be criticized 'because black people have it hard enough') You, also, must be really, really lazy or really, really unintelligent or your reading comprehension skills are pitiful. (Not really)

So, one more time - slowly, just for you. Anyone can write a book, a letter, a court pleading or a wikipedia entry. Anyone. I could write a book about the years I spent in Vietnam or in colleges and universities or in prison or in the employ of the evil oil barons. But anything I wrote could, you must admit, be incorrect on any number of levels. I might even believe what I write is true. I simply don't believe that Dreams from My Father is absolutely, positively correct in every single sentence. I am not saying any of the errata are intentional and nefarious in nature. If we took everyone's personal statements as absolute truth, Nixon might still be president. Charles Manson would be mayor of Palm Springs. Bernie Madoff would be unknown to most Americans. John Edwards would still be happily married. But we can't. And we shouldn't. That doesn't seem like that hard a concept to me.

Mr Obama's book was not written while he was under oath and, given the performance of recent presidents, I'm not sure that would guarantee veracity. I would like more 'proof', if you will, than "Well, he said so." After all, people on your side of the fence seemed to take great pleasure in laughing at GWB's grades at Yale. Hell, even Al Gore's failing grades were made public. Why is this guy any different from them? Let's see those grades and let us judge like we have been able to do in the past. After all, he works for us.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I will admit that Obama is not who I voted for, but I accept that he is probably no better than or worse than some others. He did get off on the wrong foot with me by appointing a tax cheat as Treasury Secretary and he is going to have to do better than he is doing to make up for it. Like you, I write a very large check at the end of the tax year to my pals at Treasury.

Great talking with you.


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## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

Pentheos said:


> Fact: Democrats have been in control of the House of Representatives and the Senate since 2007.
> 
> Fact: Most of the going "to hell in a handbasket" has happened since then.


Fact: Passing a bill in 2007 and 2008 requires the President's signature. Otherwise, status quo with regard to economic policies continues.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

NoVaguy said:


> Fact: Passing a bill in 2007 and 2008 requires the President's signature. Otherwise, status quo with regard to economic policies continues.


Sure is a good thing the founding fathers didn't install a system of checks and balances into our government, because that would prevent a president from riding roughshod over the Congress.

Oh, wait...


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

PetroLandman said:


> I have looked at all of the posts I have put up here and I cannot find the part where I say I haven't read his book. Please point that out to me because I clearly remember reading the book my sister sent me for my birthday. (She is very liberal and actually believes that Obama should not be criticized 'because black people have it hard enough') You, also, must be really, really lazy or really, really unintelligent or your reading comprehension skills are pitiful. (Not really)
> 
> So, one more time - slowly, just for you. Anyone can write a book, a letter, a court pleading or a wikipedia entry. Anyone. I could write a book about the years I spent in Vietnam or in colleges and universities or in prison or in the employ of the evil oil barons. But anything I wrote could, you must admit, be incorrect on any number of levels. I might even believe what I write is true. I simply don't believe that Dreams from My Father is absolutely, positively correct in every single sentence. I am not saying any of the errata are intentional and nefarious in nature. If we took everyone's personal statements as absolute truth, Nixon might still be president. Charles Manson would be mayor of Palm Springs. Bernie Madoff would be unknown to most Americans. John Edwards would still be happily married. But we can't. And we shouldn't. That doesn't seem like that hard a concept to me.
> 
> Mr Obama's book was not written while he was under oath and, given the performance of recent presidents, I'm not sure that would guarantee veracity. I would like more 'proof', if you will, than "Well, he said so." After all, people on your side of the fence seemed to take great pleasure in laughing at GWB's grades at Yale. Hell, even Al Gore's failing grades were made public. Why is this guy any different from them? Let's see those grades and let us judge like we have been able to do in the past. After all, he works for us.


I've always had, and still have the exact same distaste for people who criticized Bush's record at Yale as I have for people who criticized Michelle Obama for her masters thesis, or who're looking to criticize her husband for his college record. Few people would claim that those who're harping about this subject are doing so because they wish to admire Obama's record.

That's why I kept asking if you've read his book. Obama wrote it 15 years ago, before his political career even began, and he explains in detail this transitional and unhappy period in his life. For this precise reason, controversy about his refusal to release his college records all but vanished after the book was re-released in 2004.

This much we know: after graduating from Columbia he worked for a year and then was accepted to Harvard Law School, which means his GPA at Columbia was certainly over 3.0, probably well over 3.0, and he graduated from Harvard magna cum laude (he has released his post-graduate transcripts).


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

FrankDC said:


> (he has released his post-graduate transcripts).


Really? Out of nothing but curiosity, I'd like to see them. Where can I see these?

(As a side note, I'm in academics, and when I apply for jobs, it is routine for them to ask to see my graduate transcripts. I don't understand why a public servant would be exempted from making his/her education a matter of public record.)


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> Really? Out of nothing but curiosity, I'd like to see them. Where can I see these?


Call the White House and ask for a copy.



Pentheos said:


> (As a side note, I'm in academics, and when I apply for jobs, it is routine for them to ask to see my graduate transcripts. I don't understand why a public servant would be exempted from making his/her education a matter of public record.)


Wherever you got your education, you should ask for a refund.

School transcripts are, by federal law, private. Schools and private employers can ask for these records as a condition of acceptance or employment, but our government doesn't even have the right to ask for, let alone require the release of transcripts from public office candidates.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

FrankDC said:


> Call the White House and ask for a copy.


Your inability to say how or where these records were released suggests to me that they never were. Again, where are Obama's graduate transcripts?



FrankDC said:


> Wherever you got your education, you should ask for a refund.


It didn't cost me anything. Your tone, however, suggests to me that you think it wasn't at a good school. It was.



FrankDC said:


> School transcripts are, by federal law, private. Schools and private employers can ask for these records as a condition of acceptance or employment, but our government doesn't even have the right to ask for, let alone require the release of transcripts from public office candidates.


Shouldn't we the people ask more from our public servants?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> Your inability to say how or where these records were released suggests to me that they never were. Again, where are Obama's graduate transcripts?


And again, these records are not public information. Try and find Bush's school transcripts. Or Kerry's. Or anyone's. Releasing them for view does not magically make it public information, and if a website did publish it, the site owners would (or at least should) immediately be sued.



Pentheos said:


> It didn't cost me anything. Your tone, however, suggests to me that you think it wasn't at a good school. It was.


Sorry, it was a cheap shot. I apologize.



Pentheos said:


> Shouldn't we the people ask more from our public servants?


Sorry to answer a question with a question, but when was the last time a political candidate's school transcripts were used for something other than mud slinging?

The public release of these records serves no purpose except to further what Bill Clinton calls the "politics of personal destruction".


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

We do know that the President was on the faculty at the University of Chicago law school, albeit not in a tenure track slot. 

I'm guessing that they (a) looked at his academic credentials and (b) were pretty impressed.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

*Obama Approval*



> Among those not affiliated with either major political party, just 16% Strongly Approve and 51% Strongly Disapprove


https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pu...ministration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

ksinc said:


> https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pu...ministration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll


What does this have to do with his birth certificate?


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

DCLawyer68 said:


> We do know that the President was on the faculty at the University of Chicago law school, albeit not in a tenure track slot.
> 
> I'm guessing that they (a) looked at his academic credentials and (b) were pretty impressed.


That's a good point.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Apparently Obama admitted that his high school and Occidental grades were not good enough for Columbia or Harvard, but that he buckled down once he got in there via Affirmative Action. He also received some good references - make of that what you will. That's no different than 99% of those that go to Harvard perhaps based on who their Daddy is.

You have to give him credit for making good on the opportunity IMHO once he got there. They should still release his records since he has supposedly already told us _everything_.

The 'birthers' are suspicious that he was registered as a foreign student for financial aid purposes by at least one College he attended. However, if it was Indoneisa (instead of Kenya) it would not be evidence of not being a natural born US Citizen nor that he "gave up" US Citizenship per Snopes investigation of the matter.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/occidental.asp


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## chamjoe (Oct 26, 2009)

ksinc said:


> Apparently Obama admitted that his high school and Occidental grades were not good enough for Columbia or Harvard, but that he buckled down once he got in there via Affirmative Action. He also received some good references - make of that what you will. That's no different than 99% of those that go to Harvard perhaps based on who their Daddy is.
> 
> You have to give him credit for making good on the opportunity IMHO once he got there. They should still release his records since he has supposedly already told us _everything_.
> 
> ...


That is an interesting rumor that I was not previously aware of. If he comitted fraud to pay for school that would be an issue. But I would have to doubt it would be true. I am still suprised that his records havent been leaked at all

I've always suspected that the reason for him not allowing the release of academic records was to prevent his research papers from being released. I would assume that he might not want some of his "views" released for us to tear apart. With that said, I had some views in college that I regret having (serious political issues, i'm not talking about legalizing pot) and would blame them on a lack of my maturity.

If you look hard enough you can find fault with anyone. I can sit here all day and say why I can't stand Palin.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

chamjoe said:


> That is an interesting rumor that I was not previously aware of. If he comitted fraud to pay for school that would be an issue. But I would have to doubt it would be true. I am still suprised that his records havent been leaked at all
> 
> I've always suspected that the reason for him not allowing the release of academic records was to prevent his research papers from being released. I would assume that he might not want some of his "views" released for us to tear apart. With that said, I had some views in college that I regret having (serious political issues, i'm not talking about legalizing pot) and would blame them on a lack of my maturity.
> 
> If you look hard enough you can find fault with anyone. I can sit here all day and say why I can't stand Palin.


+1 Great post IMO.

No one can buy magna cum laude status from Harvard Law School, and I think Obama's eventual turnaround is what makes people forget about the first part of his college education.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> +1 Great post IMO.
> 
> No one can buy magna cum laude status from Harvard Law School, and I think Obama's eventual turnaround is what makes people forget about the first part of his college education.


Yep; even though I can't relate to the low SATs or bad grades; I certainly can relate and can't fault a guy for "getting serious" about his education after a slow start.

I always liked W's answer to that question: "when I was young and irresponsible; I was young and irresponsible."


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## chamjoe (Oct 26, 2009)

FrankDC said:


> +1 Great post IMO.
> 
> No one can buy magna cum laude status from Harvard Law School, and I think Obama's eventual turnaround is what makes people forget about the first part of his college education.


Thanks.

While I still consider myself slightly more on the republican side, I can't stand people that don't respect the man (Obama) for his intelligence and abilities.

Btw. Looking back at my post I hope you didn't infer I was comparing Obama to Palin. I can think of many more formidable republicans to compare to Obama than that hick.


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## Prisoner of Zendaline (Dec 8, 2008)

The networks have been made to know, Including Fox, that if they tell the truth, they will not be in business any longer.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

chamjoe said:


> Btw. Looking back at my post I hope you didn't infer I was comparing Obama to Palin. I can think of many more formidable republicans to compare to Obama than that hick.


Stay classy!


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Stay classy!


I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do.
And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.
-- Bob Newhart


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