# End of Bills Khakis



## Anon 18th Cent.

Bills Khakis is in liquidation. No word what the future holds for the company.


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## Balfour

This suggests it has been sold to a private equity firm. I have no knowledge of whether it is accurate:


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## Dmontez

That's quite unfortunate, I'm glad I have a good collection of them.


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## CSG

I knew it. Speculated about this over the past few weeks. Based on my experience with them, no loss whatsoever.


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## August West

CSG said:


> I knew it. Speculated about this over the past few weeks. Based on my experience with them, no loss whatsoever.


I respectfully disagree and would guess that the majority of members here would also. IMO it will be a huge loss if Bill's goes away.


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## Reuben

So who offers the next closest thing to a pair of M1's?


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## Dieu et les Dames

That must be why everything has been half off for over a week. I was never too fond of their chinos but it's still kind of a shame. I remember calling a couple years ago and a human picked up on the second ring. Hard to find that anymore..


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## Fred G. Unn

I posted this in the other Bill's thread but figured it would be good to repeat here as well. I have an order from November 6th that's still listed as "Processing." I've emailed about it and haven't gotten a reply. The customer service phone # seems to be down for me as well, it rings once and then it's just dead air. Order at your own risk.


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## August West

Liquidation of any business is going to bring chaos. I think it would be naive to expect anything other than exactly what is happening now with the website issues, lack of customer service etc.

edit, this was in no way directed at you Fred. Back on Nov 6, I'm not sure that any of the real signs of trouble were evident, though I hadn't really been paying attention.


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## Fred G. Unn

August West said:


> edit, this was in no way directed at you Fred. Back on Nov 6, I'm not sure that any of the real signs of trouble were evident, though I hadn't really been paying attention.


I actually had an order from a few days prior to that date that I did receive. I thought they were just rotating sales during sales season. I wasn't worried about my 11/6 order at all. On 11/23 I emailed to see what was up and didn't get a reply. I tried calling multiple times today and can't reach anyone. I'm fine if they just cancel it, but I can't seem to reach anyone there.


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## gamma68

Fred G. Unn said:


> I actually had an order from a few days prior to that date that I did receive. I thought they were just rotating sales during sales season. I wasn't worried about my 11/6 order at all. On 11/23 I emailed to see what was up and didn't get a reply. I tried calling multiple times today and can't reach anyone. I'm fine if they just cancel it, but I can't seem to reach anyone there.


A suggestion: call your credit card company and ask that the charge be removed. The likelihood that the order will arrive seems slim. If it arrives and is incorrectly filled, you won't be able to get an exchange or refund.


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## eagle2250

Reuben said:


> So who offers the next closest thing to a pair of M1's?


Orvis Ultimate Chinos seem a pretty fair stand-in for Bills Twills....and more comfortably priced!


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## drlivingston

Reuben said:


> So who offers the next closest thing to a pair of M1's?


Have you every tried Charleston Khakis from Berle?


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## Reuben

eagle2250 said:


> Orvis Ultimate Chinos seem a pretty fair stand-in for Bills Twills....and more comfortably priced!


For the M1's or the M2's? Most people seem to compare them to the M2's.



drlivingston said:


> Have you every tried Charleston Khakis from Berle?


I've tried them in the past but they didn't quite sit right with me (heh). Just kinda baggy-seeming, and a little lower rise.


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## eagle2250

^^As the Bill's that I presently have in my closet are (as best I can recall) the M2 cut, my assessment of the Ovis Ultimates as a stand-in would be a comparison with the Bill's M2 fit.


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## Tempest

CSG said:


> ... no loss whatsoever.


+1 QFT


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## godan

Gentlemen who prefer the M2 fit have some options. Finding a replacement for the perfectly fitting M3 model may be more of a task. I migrated to them from LE Tailored Fit, and am not anxious to return. Happily, I have seven pairs. At my age, they may be a lifetime supply. Even so, if anyone can suggest a replacement for M3's, I would be grateful to learn of it.


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## harmelba

I had ordered something and dud receive it mid November but returned it next day, been almost 3 weeks and no credit yet. I guess I should file with Amex?

Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk


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## Reuben

Also, do we have any solid proof that this is going down, or is mostly conjecture at this point?


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## SG_67

Reuben said:


> Also, do we have any solid proof that this is going down, or is mostly conjecture at this point?


Reading the press release it seems legit to me.


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## Anon 18th Cent.

No conjecture. I had a conversation with a senior guy this morning.


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## Duvel

I like Lands End twills and chinos (traditional fit, cuffed). I realize it's not on the same level as Bills, though. Note: Tradtional Fit are the key words here; the other stuff is too slim and low-waisted.


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## meanoldmanning

godan said:


> Gentlemen who prefer the M2 fit have some options. Finding a replacement for the perfectly fitting M3 model may be more of a task. I migrated to them from LE Tailored Fit, and am not anxious to return. Happily, I have seven pairs. At my age, they may be a lifetime supply. Even so, if anyone can suggest a replacement for M3's, I would be grateful to learn of it.


Jack Donnelly hybrid fit. Little bit more rise than M3 but similar cut otherwise.


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## FLMike

Edwin Ek said:


> No conjecture. I had a conversation with a senior guy this morning.


Pardon my ignorance, but I seem to be missing something. According to press reports, Bill's has been sold to a private equity firm, Source Capital. So, they are changing ownership, but that is not the same thing as liquidating....not even close. Sure, PE ownership can portend changes to a company's operating model, but that typically occurs over time, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that Bill's Khakis as we know it will cease to exist. As I said, maybe I missed something, but I'm a little confused as to why everyone is scrambling to find a suitable substitute to Bill's. I don't think they're going anywhere any time soon.


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## meanoldmanning

FLCracka said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but I seem to be missing something. According to press reports, Bill's has been sold to a private equity firm, Source Capital. So, they are changing ownership, but that is not the same thing as liquidating....not even close. Sure, PE ownership can portend changes to a company's operating model, but that typically occurs over time, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that Bill's Khakis as we know it will cease to exist. As I said, maybe I missed something, but I'm a little confused as to why everyone is scrambling to find a suitable substitute to Bill's. I don't think they're going anywhere any time soon.


Agreed, but I still don't have my pants.


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## drlivingston

meanoldmanning said:


> Agreed, but I still don't have my pants.


Don't despair! You are in luck. I hear they are turning over their shipping and customer satisfaction departments to Bookster! :devil:


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## FLMike

Edwin Ek said:


> Bills Khakis is in liquidation. No word what the future holds for the company.


Can you elaborate. Who told you the company is in liquidation? Current articles and press releases say something very different....that the company has a new owner/investor group.

In a private equity deal, the company is typically recapitalized. New capital gets invested in growth initiatives, which is quite the opposite of liquidation.


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## dxrham

FLCracka said:


> Can you elaborate. Who told you the company is in liquidation? Current articles and press releases say something very different....that the company has a new owner/investor group.
> 
> in a private equity deal, the company is typically recapitalized. New capital gets invested in growth initiatives, which is quite the opposite of liquidation.


The website says that all discounted sales are final and the number of items available on their website is decreasing. Seems like something is going on.

DXR


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## CSG

If you think being sucked up by a private equity firm will be a good thing, terrific. I'll wait until we find out if the pants will be made in China, Mexico, or Bangladesh...


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## FLMike

By the way, Source Capital has been involved with Bills since June 2014, according to their website. They initially made a mezzanine debt investment in the company and are now transitioning to a control equity play. Smart folks...obviously they'll be looking to grow EBITDA and thus the value of their equity, but I'd be surprised if they do anything to undermine the quality or the heritage of the brand. 

I'd still like to know where Mr. Elk heard the company is liquidating (and others felt that sounded legit after reading something).


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## Duvel

Feels sort of like non-news to me, actually. It used to be that news was when something actually happened. Now news is when things might happen.


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## FLMike

CSG said:


> If you think being sucked up by a private equity firm will be a good thing, terrific. I'll wait until we find out if the pants will be made in China, Mexico, or Bangladesh...


Good grief people. Bills is not new to private equity. Larsen MacColl Partners made a growth equity investment in the company in early 2013. Nothing to see here....as you were, folks.


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## Duvel

It's the end of the world as we know it. I feel okay though.


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## gamma68

FLCracka said:


> Nothing to see here....as you were, folks.


Then why the sudden flurry of deep deep discounts, shopping cart problems, depleted inventory, unfilled orders, lengthy backorders, no one returning customer calls or emails, now no one answering the phone....

These are not signs of a thriving company.


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## August West

gamma68 said:


> Then why the sudden flurry of deep deep discounts, shopping cart problems, depleted inventory, unfilled orders, lengthy backorders, no one returning customer calls or emails, now no one answering the phone....
> 
> These are not signs of a thriving company.


This. While Bills may not go away, all recent signs suggest it will cease to exist as the brand we know.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Duvel

I think we'll be okay. While it's a good brand, if it is actually "going away," something else will bubble up to replace it. The state of "trad" attire is not as dire as we sometimes make it sound, i.e., we have options. In my very humble opinion, Bill's is overpriced and overrated, anyway.


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## Anon 18th Cent.

Cracka, that's the way it works. Source lent them money, Bills couldn't service the debt or broke some tenants in the loan agreement, so now Source is taking control. Not business as usual or a capital infusion.

My guess, since it is sop, is that of course the new owners are going to say the business is restructuring and will continue. No harm in doing that, and Bill Thomas gets to save some face. Could even be true. Source will decide if there is enough of an asset to continue-- if it is worth investing more money. Plus saying that it is a reorganization lets the liquidation be a little more orderly and profitable.


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## CSG

Duvel said:


> ...In my very humble opinion, Bill's is overpriced and overrated, anyway.


Bingo


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## xcubbies

Someone I know in the business said that the new owners have hired an Italian design team who intend to make the company more Contemporary. Wonder what that means!


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## gamma68

Duvel said:


> I think we'll be okay. While it's a good brand, if it is actually "going away," something else will bubble up to replace it. The state of "trad" attire is not as dire as we sometimes make it sound, i.e., we have options. In my very humble opinion, Bill's is overpriced and overrated, anyway.


Do you own any Bills Khakis?


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## eagle2250

^^LOL.

Not to worry...I presently have enough pair(s) of Bill's Twills and BB Clarks Advantage chinos stockpiled and hanging in my closet to see me comfortably through the End Times, a period upon which we seem about to embark!


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## Califax

Edwin Ek said:


> Cracka, that's the way it works. Source lent them money, Bills couldn't service the debt or broke some tenants in the loan agreement, so now Source is taking control. Not business as usual or a capital infusion.
> 
> My guess, since it is sop, is that of course the new owners are going to say the business is restructuring and will continue. No harm in doing that, and Bill Thomas gets to save some face. Could even be true. Source will decide if there is enough of an asset to continue-- if it is worth investing more money. Plus saying that it is a reorganization lets the liquidation be a little more orderly and profitable.


I haven't looked into the situation very closely but on the surface at least I have to agree.


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## Corcovado

A few weeks back I placed an order for 2 pairs of khakis and a pair of loafers. They never arrived. I email Bill's and they said that they had been shipped and provided me with a tracking number. The tracking number didn't show any such package existed and when I phoned the post office they had no record of any such package. I emailed BK back and provided them with that info and the customer service rep said that she would kick it up to her superiors as a lost package or some such thing. That was over a week ago and I haven't heard anything from them. After reading about their current situation I am tempted to contact Amex and ask to have the charges removed.


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## CrescentCityConnection

Duvel said:


> .... In my very humble opinion, Bill's is overpriced and overrated, anyway.


Spot on. When I first discovered them several years ago they were well under $100 a pair and their customer service was very good. Then their prices started climbing, offering shirts, belts, jeans, sweaters, coats,etc....prices kept climbing, customer service began to slip and I quit buying. Quoddy is another example of a company that kept hiking up prices while the rest of the things that held me as a customer began to vanish. 
There are plenty of options to Bills. Remember, they are just khaki pants! We will be fine.


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## ChicagoTrad

FLCracka said:


> By the way, Source Capital has been involved with Bills since June 2014, according to their website. They initially made a mezzanine debt investment in the company and are now transitioning to a control equity play. Smart folks...obviously they'll be looking to grow EBITDA and thus the value of their equity, but I'd be surprised if they do anything to undermine the quality or the heritage of the brand.
> 
> I'd still like to know where Mr. Elk heard the company is liquidating (and others felt that sounded legit after reading something).


There would seem to be an interesting private equity play in putting together a group of these made-in-america, heritage style products so that they could share marketing, logistics, etc. No indication that is what this company wants, but there is more demand out there than before, and the benefits of lower marketing and production costs could help make the products more cost effective to consumers as well.


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## Duvel

Under $100 would be okay for what these are. I have shopped on the 'bay and such for these on sale, and I've found good prices, but they all seem to be seconds with some identified odd flaw, or else the colors are weird.



CrescentCityConnection said:


> Spot on. When I first discovered them several years ago they were well under $100 a pair and their customer service was very good. Then their prices started climbing, offering shirts, belts, jeans, sweaters, coats,etc....prices kept climbing, customer service began to slip and I quit buying. Quoddy is another example of a company that kept hiking up prices while the rest of the things that held me as a customer began to vanish.
> There are plenty of options to Bills. Remember, they are just khaki pants! We will be fine.


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## meanoldmanning

Their trousers are nice and I am glad I have purchased them in the past, but they definitely are not refined enough to command the full asking price. On sale? Yes. 

Frankly I was just happy to find chinos that were still made in the USA. 

My only gripe now is that I still don't have the trousers I ordered recently.


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## CrescentCityConnection

I believe when I first started buying them they were around $85. I kept buying until they went over $95 and that was it for me!



Duvel said:


> Under $100 would be okay for what these are. I have shopped on the 'bay and such for these on sale, and I've found good prices, but they all seem to be seconds with some identified odd flaw, or else the colors are weird.


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## Doctor Damage

Duvel said:


> In my very humble opinion, Bill's is overpriced and overrated, anyway.


I agree and if the company is struggling (as I suspect it probably is) I think that's half the reason why. The other half is that the current preppy/trad/hipster/made-in-the-usa fashion trend has caused the space which Bills 'owned' for a long time to become crowded and much more competitive - it seems everyone is selling made in the USA, classically styled chinos now.


gamma68 said:


> Do you own any Bills Khakis?


I'm sure he does, if he's saying that. I bought two pairs of their classic chinos several years back, one pair M1 and one M2, and both are the worst pants I've ever bought. I won't list all my complaints since the received wisdom in this forum is that Bills were designed by God and are beyond criticism, like Alden. Anyways, I never bought another pair and never will. I wouldn't even take a pair if they were free (although I'd be tempted to take them and sell them to you).


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## gamma68

Folks, the larger point is this: BK are widely considered among the best USA-made khakis available. And I agree. They're expensive, but at a price point comparable to other well-made American clothing. 

You all know the industry has shifted toward manufacturing clothing overseas, often (but not always) resulting in a reduction in quality. Compare your El Salvador LLB apparel to American-made items from 20 years ago. Ditto Lands' End, Brooks Brothers, etc. 

So, given the current state of dissaray at BK, along with the fire sale and news of an equity firm purchase, those who like BK should be concerned that the product as we know it today will soon no longer be available. Sure, you might still be able to buy a pair--but it might be manufactured in Sri Lanka. 

This development is a real concern for those who appreciate the quality of American-made apparel. 

If this doesn't bother you, carry on. But don't pooh pooh the fact that BK appears to be heading in the wrong direction.


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## ilrprbp

Bill's is taking down Source Capital:

The stock of Source Capital Incorporated (NYSE:SOR) registered an increase of 8.11% in short interest. SOR’s total short interest was 4,000 shares in December as published by FINRA. Its up 8.11% from 3,700 shares, reported previously. With 10,900 shares average volume, it will take short sellers 0 days to cover their SOR’s short positions. The stock decreased 0.71% or $0.47 on December 4, hitting $66.03. About 161,314 shares traded hands or 602.80% up from the average. Source Capital, Inc. (NYSE:SOR) has declined 9.42% since May 4, 2015 and is downtrending. It has underperformed by 6.64% the S&P500.


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## gamma68

Doctor Damage said:


> ... it seems everyone is selling made in the USA, classically styled chinos now.


Really? None of my LLB, LE or Orvis khakis were made in the USA.



Doctor Damage said:


> I'm sure he does, if he's saying that. I bought two pairs of their classic chinos several years back, one pair M1 and one M2, and both are the worst pants I've ever bought. I won't list all my complaints since the received wisdom in this forum is that Bills were designed by God and are beyond criticism, like Alden. Anyways, I never bought another pair and never will. I wouldn't even take a pair if they were free (although I'd be tempted to take them and sell them to you).


By all means, if you find a pair in my size, send me a PM. 34 waist, 32 length.

A chacun son gout. No product is perfect. But please don't belittle the concerns of those of us who actually like the product.


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## FLMike

They are clearly in an excess inventory position. Notice in the release, Source said they had partnered with NEJ Inc in the acquisition. NEJ's specialty is creating sell-off programs for excess inventories. My guess is they work to correct the current supply chain issues, then probably eliminate the superfluous, non-core items - like jeans, shirts, sport coats, etc. - from their assortment to refocus on the core items the brand was built around....namely, good quality USA-made khakis.

I agree that they have likely gotten themselves into an overlevered situation and have been unable to service their debt. The rag trade is a notoriously difficult business, and high inventory levels together with high debt levels can be a lethal combination. Unfortunatley, it seems that Bill had no choice but to do the recap and give up control to Source. Now I understand where the "liquidation" rumors came from. They are in the process of liquidating excess stock.....not the whole company (at least not yet!).

By the way, I too find their prices to be a bit exhorbitant. Or maybe I'm just cheap. The M2 is my go-to khaki...the fit is perfect for me. I have a several pairs in my closet, but I have never paid anything close to full retail for nary a one.

FYI, here's some more about NEJ:

NEJ is a trusted advisor and global leader in excess inventory solutions for specialty stores, retailers and famous brands of apparel, accessories, footwear and home goods. 
We work with retailers to create customized sell-off programs for excess inventories by purchasing, processing and reselling past-season merchandise, factory-excess product and retail-store customer returns to a diverse customer base of global off-price retailers.
NEJ's customized solutionsfulfill the "second lifecycle" of reselling full-price products.In turn, we assist retail partners with improved inventory turns, operating efficiency, profitability and brand protection. 
With a proven 25-year track record of strong performance, NEJ is known for our retail industry knowledge, disciplined processes, and proven execution strategies for managing excess inventory transactions from start to finish.
 NEJ&#8230;the right choice for your excess inventory needs.


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## SG_67

I don't own any Bill's Khakis. Therefore, I'm kind of an outside observer to this whole thing. 

The reason I don't own any is because from the measurements provided on the website, they fit like a tent. Even the, I believe, M3 which is their trimmest fit appears to be somewhat baggy.


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## FLMike

ilrprbp said:


> Bill's is taking down Source Capital:
> 
> The stock of Source Capital Incorporated (NYSE:SOR) registered an increase of 8.11% in short interest. SOR's total short interest was 4,000 shares in December as published by FINRA. Its up 8.11% from 3,700 shares, reported previously. With 10,900 shares average volume, it will take short sellers 0 days to cover their SOR's short positions. The stock decreased 0.71% or $0.47 on December 4, hitting $66.03. About 161,314 shares traded hands or 602.80% up from the average. Source Capital, Inc. (NYSE:SOR) has declined 9.42% since May 4, 2015 and is downtrending. It has underperformed by 6.64% the S&P500.


Haha. Wrong Source Capital! https://source-cap.com


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## Duvel

I do agree that is worrisome that a qualty Made-in-the-USA product may disappear. (I'm not sure it's really clear that it will. I'm having a hard time telling if this is news or conjecture.) That is never a good thing to see.


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## toddorbertBU

I think it's both news and conjecture. Bills is clearly having a massive sell off. Many of their products have disappeared from the website. I think those are facts. 
The conjecture is what is the future of the company. 

Are they closing? I don't think so as they are seeming to prepare to ship new khakis in 2016. But they have put back ordered items up last month which they seem to have cancelled. So I'm not sure how much weight to give the 2016 ship date for khakis. 

What I am more concerned about, as are many others, is what is going on w their customer service/fulfillment department. 
I would gladly help them liquidate their inventory but have serious concerns about when those orders are going to be shipped. It would be helpful if someone from the company could respond to that issue or they are going to have a lot of chargebacks in their future which will not help their reputation or finances.


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## ilrprbp

Just having a little fun Cracka. Bill's was moving into J.A.B territory with their pricing, and the shirt pricing was especially egregious. I do have a pair of original M2's and love them though. I've got one of their two faced flannel shirts for sale on ebay right now, so if someone is getting nostalgic feel free to bid $165 for it.


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## meanoldmanning

gamma68 said:


> Folks, the larger point is this: BK are widely considered among the best USA-made khakis available. And I agree. They're expensive, but at a price point comparable to other well-made American clothing.


I'm swerving off topic a bit...

What bothers me at times is what appears to be a trend toward marketing American made upscale. It only, in my mind, reinforces the idea that manufacturing in the US is too expensive. Yes, it is more expensive for a number of reasons that we don't need to go into here. I like the crowd source model many purveyors of selvedge denim are embracing that undermine the concept that American made is only available at luxury prices. No, you don't get immediate satisfaction as you have to wait for the run to be funded and garments to be manufactured but you do get quality US made goods, in my experience, at very reasonable prices.


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## FLMike

eagle2250 said:


> ^^LOL.
> 
> Not to worry...I presently have enough pair(s) of Bill's Twills and BB Clarks Advantage chinos stockpiled and hanging in my closet to see me comfortably through *the End Times, a period upon which we seem about to embark!*


eagle, I agree with you here. Although, I tend to think we've already embarked.


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## Duvel

In any case, it will be interesting to observe what happens.


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## orange fury

SG_67 said:


> I don't own any Bill's Khakis. Therefore, I'm kind of an outside observer to this whole thing.
> 
> The reason I don't own any is because from the measurements provided on the website, they fit like a tent. Even the, I believe, M3 which is their trimmest fit appears to be somewhat baggy.


I own 2 pairs- Christmas Plaid M1 cords and Blackwatch M2 wool trousers, both of which I had to have heavily altered. I've purchased M2's and M3's in the past, but ended up selling or returning each pair due to fit issues. It's sad that this is happening to a company that is revered as it is in these circles, but Bills always fit me oddly, so it doesn't really effect me personally.

just a thought- BK built their reputation on US made chinos. I could see an outcome where BK offshores or eliminates their non-core lines (shirts, etc) and maintains US production for their core products.


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## WillBarrett

ilrprbp said:


> Just having a little fun Cracka. *Bill's was moving into J.A.B territory with their pricing, *and the shirt pricing was especially egregious. I do have a pair of original M2's and love them though. I've got one of their two faced flannel shirts for sale on ebay right now, so if someone is getting nostalgic feel free to bid $165 for it.


No, they weren't. Apparently all these recent sales were symptomes of the company's larger problems - which is why it served as a red flag to some of us who are normally used to their more excessive pricing.


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## rmpmcdermott

I have some friends that swear by Bill's and some that can't stand them. I don't own any, but that mostly has to do with the rise being too short. Only 10" on the M2s. That's just not enough for me. And for the price I'd rather buy Press or O'Connell's. Just my opinion, though.


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## HerrDavid

rmpmcdermott said:


> I have some friends that swear by Bill's and some that can't stand them. I don't own any, but that mostly has to do with the rise being too short. Only 10" on the M2s. That's just not enough for me. And for the price I'd rather buy Press or O'Connell's. Just my opinion, though.


That doesn't sound right. What's your waist size? I wear M2s in 31 and 32 an the rise is 11.5in.


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## rmpmcdermott

HerrDavid said:


> That doesn't sound right. What's your waist size? I wear M2s in 31 and 32 an the rise is 11.5in.


I just used the fit guide on the site. Regardless, I'd prefer around 13" rise on my 38" waist.

https://www.billskhakis.com/size_fit_pants


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## HerrDavid

Strange! That guide is definitely wrong and I suspect that, as with most trousers, the rise measurement will increases with the waist. You might want to give them a chance, as they now can be had for about $40. Well, that is, if any of these discounted orders ships!


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## rmpmcdermott

HerrDavid said:


> Strange! That guide is definitely wrong and I suspect that, as with most trousers, the rise measurement will increases with the waist. You might want to give them a chance, as they now can be had for about $40. Well, that is, if any of these discounted orders ships!


Yeah I thought it was strange as well that they only listed one measurement for rise and I couldn't find anywhere that said that was the rise for a certain waist size. I'd certainly try them for $40, but I do worry about the shipping issues people seem to be having.


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## Anon 18th Cent.

Cracka, you seem a fan of the company and products. I am too. I hate to keep saying this, but the whole company is being liquidated, not excess inventory or some other less drastic step. There is now only a skeleton staff at hq. I learned other not-happy details, but no need to repeat them.


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## WillBarrett

70% off the next three hours. Wish I had the scratch - that's worth going for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CrescentCityConnection

It is on the outside chance that you get the product. These stories of several weeks old orders that are not received by the customer doesn't seem promising. 


WillBarrett said:


> 70% off the next three hours. Wish I had the scratch - that's worth going for it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FLMike

Edwin Ek said:


> Cracka, you seem a fan of the company and products. I am too. I hate to keep saying this, but the whole company is being liquidated, not excess inventory or some other less drastic step. There is now only a skeleton staff at hq. I learned other not-happy details, but no need to repeat them.


If this if true, they are being awfully disingenuous with their quotes in the release.....if not downright dishonest.


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## Slim Jim

This is just awful. I starting wearing Bills about 3 to 4 years ago and I just love them. I get the M2 fit which is perfect.
I knew something was up when I saw the deep discount sale keep going and going. No my fears are true.
Sure I might be able to find a replacement for the M2 size but I doubt I'll find the variety of fabric. The flannel lined twill and cotton poplin are my favorites and no one else makes those to the M2 fit.


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## goplutus

A good outcome would be an Allen Edmonds like approach - keeping core product in the US, but creating some downscale items that could be sourced elsewhere. While not perfect, it's a decent compromise.


----------



## Charles Dana

orange fury said:


> just a thought- BK built their reputation on US made chinos. I could see an outcome where BK offshores or eliminates their non-core lines (shirts, etc) and maintains US production for their core products.


A reasonable thought. Filson has been taking exactly that approach to manufacturing for a few years now, to the consternation of some long-time customers. Or former customers.


----------



## Charles Dana

Slim Jim said:


> I might be able to find a replacement for the M2 size but I doubt I'll find the variety of fabric. The flannel lined twill and cotton poplin are my favorites and no one else makes those to the M2 fit.


I see what you mean. I really like my twill chinos from O'Connell's. However, if Bills really does ride into the sunset, I'll miss their 100% cotton poplin trousers--that poplin is nice fabric.


----------



## Tempest

meanoldmanning said:


> What bothers me at times is what appears to be a trend toward marketing American made upscale. It only, in my mind, reinforces the idea that manufacturing in the US is too expensive. Yes, it is more expensive for a number of reasons that we don't need to go into here.


Agreed, they are the Whole Foods model where people are willing to pay more for quality and ethics and all, but they still know when the price is unreasonably high and they balk. See also the absurd pricing by Duck Head, Dickies 1922 etc. 


SG_67 said:


> I don't own any Bill's Khakis...because from the measurements provided on the website, they fit like a tent.


Ditto, even though they don't even pretend to serve people under a 32" waist and it seems like they vanity size anyway.


----------



## HerrDavid

Tempest said:


> Ditto, even though they don't even pretend to serve people under a 32" waist and it seems like they vanity size anyway.


Huh, my size 31 M2s--with a waistband measuring exactly 15.5 inches across--must be a figment of my imagination then! Who knew?


----------



## Green3

I have one pair of Bills. They are nice but to me not worth the premium. Like Shetlands, I see chinos as being pretty casual and I wear them hard. I would rather spend $250 on flannels or gabs than $150 on chinos. 

I suspect Bills got a little lost with the competition, and I also suspect they made no money on sweaters and shirts when you factor in the cost of warehousing and inventory etc. 

inwas as always tempted to get a pair of the button fly but they are gone I believe.


----------



## Bomilcar

I have been wearing Bills for many years. Ordered 4 pairs of pants from Bills late November. Got one pair in the mail. Credit card billed for one pair. Called to discuss the problem. Took a week to get through. Was told that Bills was liquidating. One pair was all I was going to get.

Thus, I could sure use some help locating a place to purchase button fly khakis size 38?
Thanks
Steve​


----------



## WillBarrett

Green3 said:


> *I have one pair of Bills. They are nice but to me not worth the premium. Like Shetlands, I see chinos as being pretty casual and I wear them hard. I would rather spend $250 on flannels or gabs than $150 on chinos.
> *
> I suspect Bills got a little lost with the competition, and I also suspect they made no money on sweaters and shirts when you factor in the cost of warehousing and inventory etc.
> 
> inwas as always tempted to get a pair of the button fly but they are gone I believe.


I sympathize with this position - though I have several pair of Bill's that I have found second-hands - as I wear all my casual stuff pretty hard (father of three small kids, etc.). The problem then is what do you buy? Who makes solid, must-iron chinos for less than $40 or $50? And at that point, I might as well buy Bill's on eBay or STP.


----------



## seanm440

I've received many 50% off emails from Bill's in the last few weeks. Given that I already own a few pairs of khakis, I've resisted the urge to even look at their offerings. Earlier today, however, I almost pulled the trigger on a shetland sweater - at 50% off it seemed an amazing deal. When I put a sweater in my shopping bag, I got a message saying that it would not be available until Jan. 8. There was also a message that no returns would be accepted on sales made during the "holiday sale period" of Dec. 1 - 25. 

Not knowing what was going on, I decided to check in with the forums here. After reading this thread, I decided not to make my purchase. Given the situation, I'm not confident that my sweater will ever be available. What a sad story. I am grateful to read about the apparent demise of the company before I placed my order.


----------



## Slim Jim

Bomilcar said:


> I have been wearing Bills for many years. Ordered 4 pairs of pants from Bills late November. Got one pair in the mail. Credit card billed for one pair. Called to discuss the problem. Took a week to get through. Was told that Bills was liquidating. One pair was all I was going to get.
> 
> Thus, I could sure use some help locating a place to purchase button fly khakis size 38?
> Thanks
> Steve​


Wingtip has them on sale now, I wouldn't wait.


----------



## Charles Dana

If--and I mean if--you still want to give Bills Khakis a try and if--that's if--I correctly understand the ambiguous e-mail I just received--then today only, the deal from Bills Khakis is you get 60% off of the sale price. And most things appear to be on sale. For example, the Shetland sweaters, normally $225.00, are on sale for $90.00. At checkout, if I have this right, a further reduction of 60% will apply, making the final cost $36.00. The shirts, normally $145.00, are on sale for $58.00. A 60% discount yields a final price of $23.20. 

Or maybe the deal is a straight 60% off the MSRP for those items that happen to be on sale. The darned e-mail can be interpreted a couple of ways. The only way to be sure is to see what you are charged at checkout; since Bills customer service department is not open on weekends, there's nobody to ask.

I have not done a test purchase to confirm my understanding--I'm just letting you know in case you want to check out the Bills website for yourself.

Today's discount is almost--almost--enough to tempt me to give it a shot. Perhaps I'll think about this. Or take a nap until the feeling passes.


----------



## Orgetorix

I'm only getting 60% off the MSRP. No additional discount showing at checkout.


----------



## seer

Just a heads up, after my order did not ship for two weeks I finally got through after a number of tries. I spoke to a woman who said that she was with the company from day one. All the remaining workers will be fired by the end of the month, and she didn't think that Bills would be around after that, though she was not told that for sure.


----------



## Jman9599

seer said:


> Just a heads up, after my order did not ship for two weeks I finally got through after a number of tries. I spoke to a woman who said that she was with the company from day one. All the remaining workers will be fired by the end of the month, and she didn't think that Bills would be around after that, though she was not told that for sure.


so I guess I shouldn't pre-order pants that says it will be available 1/1/16


----------



## Califax

I managed to get my favorite pair from wingtip. Shipped very fast.


----------



## Danny

What exactly is the principle in play when an equity firm purchases a company and then liquidates it immediately? Does it net the equity firm a lot of cash via tax write offs? Is that why it's done?


----------



## TDWat

Danny said:


> What exactly is the principle in play when an equity firm purchases a company and then liquidates it immediately? Does it net the equity firm a lot of cash via tax write offs? Is that why it's done?


I can't speak to the Bill's situation in particular, but if you want to take over solely the name/goodwill/IP associated with a brand, you could in theory liquidate all of the physical assets and lay off all of the employees, then "restart" the brand in your own production facilities, with your own management, in a different location, etc.


----------



## FLMike

Danny said:


> What exactly is the principle in play when an equity firm purchases a company and then liquidates it immediately? Does it net the equity firm a lot of cash via tax write offs? Is that why it's done?


In this case, the private equity firm was first a creditor. With the company unable to pay back the debt, the debt was converted to equity and so presumably, the new owner is attempting to recoup as much of its investment as possible by liquidating the company's assets (principally inventories). The whole release about the private equity firm "acquiring" Bills was extremely misleading and, in my opinion, disingenuous, since it clearly suggested that they were acquiring the business as a going concern and were excited about partnering with management to take the business to the next level, continue the brand's tradition, plan for 2016, etc, etc. Not even close to reality, if the insider reports are true.


----------



## richard warren

Well,I just ordered a couple of pairrs. We'll see what happens.


----------



## belopsky

Lots of negative comments on Bills' facebook page.

I have placed 3 orders - 2 when the sale was 60%, 1 when it was most recently 50%. I've received the previous two and have no doubt they'll send me this last one as well.

As to the future of the company, hope we'll find out..but it's sad .


----------



## CSG

I don't think it's sad at all. They took a perfectly good little enterprise, forgot their mission and lost their way. You see it happen all the time. Frankly, I was never impressed with the merchandise of theirs that I inspected. Lots of very good marketing but then prices went nuts, the product line expanded to the ridiculous, and the rest appears to be history.


----------



## fishertw

I'm worried that the same corporate fate will occur with Rancourt. They've been growing, expanding and changing over the past year or so and I'm afraid that as we say in the South. " they're gonna get too big for their britches" 
Just my $.02 worth!


----------



## Doctor Damage

^ I think your comment is worth much more than two cents. What happens to Rancourt and Alden and others if their current popularity among hipsters, trads, urban lumberjacks, workwear types, etc, fades, as it surely must?


----------



## JLibourel

I see that of lot the fellows who comment of the collapse of Bill's attribute it, at least in large part, to the diversification of their product line. I know that in the past few years Allen-Edmonds has also been pushing into the area of general menswear. Anybody else here wonder if they too are heading down the same, wrong road?


----------



## Dr. D

The key difference between this and Rancourt/Alden is that Bill Thomas sold out. I think what happened in Bill's case is the new owners saw a great small business with a dedicated core of customers that were willing to pay more for a quality "Made in USA" product. Instead of keeping the business small and growing slowly as demand for their khakis increased, they attempted to exploit Bill's customer base and get them to buy all kinds of clothing. They assumed that customers who wouldn't hesitate to pay $150+ for a pair of khakis would similarly pay more for other clothing. So they expanded to cords and tartan pants, and then shirts and sweaters and so forth, expecting the Bill's brand name would support their pricing. 

But most Bill's customers were just there for the khakis, and so investment into other areas of clothing turned out to suck all the cash away from the one part of the business that could make money - the khakis. And when they finally didn't have enough liquid cash to buy materials and pay workers to make more khakis, they imploded and have a fire sale to make anything they can off of all the extraneous junk they manufactured. 

I can't speak for Rancourt, but I know Alden has resisted calls to drastically increase their output now that they are in extreme demand. They seem to be content to let their core business chug away as is, and I would expect Alden will be able to weather the downturn once the masses have moved on to different brands.


----------



## Tempest

Dr. D said:


> I can't speak for Rancourt, but I know Alden has resisted calls to drastically increase their output now that they are in extreme demand. They seem to be content to let their core business chug away as is...


My understanding is that they've resisted any updates in modernity or efficiency since some time around the Moon landing. Presumably they have vast stockpiles of cash for the day when their antique equipment needs overhaul or replacement.

But even as a disinterested non-observer, I'd agree that Bill's diversified too readily in an attempt to capitalize on the core product, and few were interested.


----------



## Cowtown

I placed an order on December 5 and received confirmation it went through, but nothing further. I emailed customer service earlier today and received word my order shipped via UPS. I should have enough khakis to last for several years. I really hope they can salvage core business.


----------



## vwguy

JLibourel said:


> I see that of lot the fellows who comment of the collapse of Bill's attribute it, at least in large part, to the diversification of their product line. I know that in the past few years Allen-Edmonds has also been pushing into the area of general menswear. Anybody else here wonder if they too are heading down the same, wrong road?


Not to sidetrack the thread, but I think the same thing everytime I get one of their mini catalogs. AE seems to be on better financial footing, so dismal sales of the menswear won't hurt them too much, but it does make you wonder what they're thinking?

Brian


----------



## ROI

FLCracka said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but I seem to be missing something. According to press reports, Bill's has been sold to a private equity firm, Source Capital. So, they are changing ownership, but that is not the same thing as liquidating....not even close. Sure, PE ownership can portend changes to a company's operating model, but that typically occurs over time, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that Bill's Khakis as we know it will cease to exist. As I said, maybe I missed something, but I'm a little confused as to why everyone is scrambling to find a suitable substitute to Bill's. I don't think they're going anywhere any time soon.


Likewise. The news articles I can find online say Bills has been bought by an investment company.


----------



## FLMike

YEs


ROI said:


> Likewise. The news articles I can find online say Bills has been bought by an investment company.


Yes, it's hard to reconcile the news articles and quotes with what is apparently really transpiring. There is a clear disconnect, but several well-placed sources have confirmed that the company is, in fact, liquidating.

The "acquisition" by the investment firm was in actuality a recapitalization in which the firm's debt investment was converted to equity ownership because the company was in distress and unable to service the debt.


----------



## adept

eagle2250 said:


> ^^LOL.
> 
> Not to worry...I presently have enough pair(s) of Bill's Twills and BB Clarks Advantage chinos stockpiled and hanging in my closet to see me comfortably through the End Times, a period upon which we seem about to embark!


What size are you, where do you live, and do you leave the back door unlocked...?


----------



## Califax

well, this is interesting....



> To our valued customers,
> 
> First and foremost, thank you for being a Bills Khakis customer.
> 
> Business conditions over the past few months have had a temporary negative impact on our ability to service you. These conditions have compromised our ability to respond to your most basic requests, including returns, exchanges and order status. I want to apologize for these unforeseen circumstances. This is not reflective of our team's dedication or care. It remains our desire to deliver a high level of service that matches our commitment to uncompromised quality.
> 
> Over the past several weeks, we have been working through a period of transition. With support from our new partner, we have taken the necessary steps to correct these matters and are confident they will be behind us quickly - we will be following up with you in earnest over the coming weeks. As an expression of our apologies, I hope you will accept an additional 20% off your next purchase.
> 
> To redeem, please use passcode BKTHANKYOU20 at www.billskhakis.com through December 31, 2015.
> 
> Thank you for your patience through these recent circumstances. Thank you for wearing Bills Khakis.


----------



## adept

Last Summer I ordered a shirt and it didn't fit. The fit guide was wrong. The return was processed promptly, but the credit back to my account was inordinately delayed. I knew then something was wrong.

I hope that everyone who has ordered/returned something is properly taken care of, but to knowingly do business with them now is foolhardy. Also, if they genuinely plan to operate in the future, what is going on now will make that substantially harder.


----------



## smmrfld

Califax said:


> well, this is interesting....


Gotta give 'em credit for chutzpah. "We can't guarantee you'll get product, service, etc....but here's another discount that we hope causes you to toss more money our way." Ummm...no.


----------



## fred johnson

I am not overly concerned; I have enough M1's to last my lifetime with careful rotation. I do agree with some that BK seemed to abandon their original mission by broadening out into other, unremarkable items which could be bought elsewhere. Customers came for Khakis, period, just because they were always available and always the same and because Bill Thomas made this his business model. His strayed direction bothered me as I saw his vision being diluted by, what for me was, unnecessary junk. I may just have to keep fond memories of my M1's in the same place as my unlined, full-cut Brooks OCBD's.


----------



## Anon 18th Cent.

Years ago I met Bill Thomas at a trunk show, and he seemed a decent guy. What's happened here is sadly a familiar tale. The founder has a good idea, works hard, has some success, wants to expand his business and take some money out, so needs capital. The new investors have different goals: leverage the assets and brand, expand sales, get rich on the fruits of someone else's labor.

It didn't end well, but it rarely does.

I got one of those apologetic emails too, signed by Bill Thomas. I bet a thousand bucks the new owners have the rights to use that signature and it wounds Bill to see it used like that in a deception. After all, it is his name on the door.


----------



## Charles Dana

The following post is based on information that I obtained independent of today's e-mail from Bill Thomas.

I won't betray a confidence, so I'll be discreet. I have learned that Bills Khakis will evidently remain a going concern, in 2016 and beyond. Ideally as a stronger, better-managed company. It is regrouping and catching its breath, so I have been encouraged to understand. Based on what I've determined, there are no plans to turn out the lights for good. What will the overall product line-up look like? I don't know. Where will the goods be manufactured? I don't know. But rumors of the impending death of Bills Khakis are unfounded.

At this early stage in the reincarnation of Bills Khakis, that's all I can report.


----------



## JLibourel

Good to hear, as long as Bill's doesn't go the same way as Johnston & Murphy, Florsheim or many other once-respected American brands.


----------



## CrescentCityConnection

smmrfld said:


> Gotta give 'em credit for chutzpah. "We can't guarantee you'll get product, service, etc....but here's another discount that we hope causes you to toss more money our way." Ummm...no.


LMAO!! You're spot on!! Balls!


----------



## duckbill

smmrfld said:


> Gotta give 'em credit for chutzpah. "We can't guarantee you'll get product, service, etc....but here's another discount that we hope causes you to toss more money our way." Ummm...no.


LOL I think this is called "The Bookster Approach to Doing Business"!


----------



## Himself

The "60% off" is on again.


----------



## meanoldmanning

Himself said:


> The "60% off" is on again.


Hardly anything left in my size. Well, unless I really want plum colored trousers.


----------



## gamma68

Charles Dana said:


> The following post is based on information that I obtained independent of today's e-mail from Bill Thomas.
> 
> I won't betray a confidence, so I'll be discreet. I have learned that Bills Khakis will evidently remain a going concern, in 2016 and beyond. Ideally as a stronger, better-managed company. It is regrouping and catching its breath, so I have been encouraged to understand. Based on what I've determined, there are no plans to turn out the lights for good. What will the overall product line-up look like? I don't know. Where will the goods be manufactured? I don't know. But rumors of the impending death of Bills Khakis are unfounded.
> 
> At this early stage in the reincarnation of Bills Khakis, that's all I can report.


I'm not holding my breath. I also don't expect to receive what I ordered last week either.

Bills is doing so much damage to itself now in terms of customer relations, I'm not sure it could recover even if the company does survive.


----------



## mkrgk

Shipping on orders is getting slower by the week, but it is happening. Don't know about backordered items, though.


----------



## tocqueville

I'm very tempted by the Shetlands. At those prices...


----------



## Semper Jeep

I bought a few pair of pants and a cable knit sweater just before Thanksgiving and everything arrived without issue (one pair of M2s were backordered but I called and they were able to send me the next size up which fits better in the waist anyway - I always have to either slim the leg or let out the waist so it's a trade-off between 34" or 35" for me with Bill's). FWIW, when I called about the backordered pair, somebody picked up almost immediately and she was able to process the change in my order right away (she also didn't hesitate to adjust a price for me on the sweater).

I took advantage of today's 70% off plus the extra 20% BKTHANKS code and grabbed a couple pair of the chamois cloth pants that I've wanted to try.

I don't own any of Bill's Shetland sweaters but a local store carries them and they always have seemed very hefty and solid. If they had the colors I wanted in stock for immediately delivery I probably would have ordered a couple of those as well. I think the $90 that they would work out to now would be a fair price for them.

I'm not too concerned about my order not getting fulfilled and I for one hope they keep making their chinos for years to come.


----------



## egerland

If they survive, I hope their products continue to be US made. I will often spend more to avoid stuff made in Asia.


----------



## ROI

Charles Dana said:


> The following post is based on information that I obtained independent of today's e-mail from Bill Thomas.
> 
> I won't betray a confidence, so I'll be discreet. I have learned that Bills Khakis will evidently remain a going concern, in 2016 and beyond. Ideally as a stronger, better-managed company. It is regrouping and catching its breath, so I have been encouraged to understand. Based on what I've determined, there are no plans to turn out the lights for good. What will the overall product line-up look like? I don't know. Where will the goods be manufactured? I don't know. But rumors of the impending death of Bills Khakis are unfounded.
> 
> At this early stage in the reincarnation of Bills Khakis, that's all I can report.


I hope your source is correct. It's been a luxury not having to think about where to get my next pair of khakis.

I suppose I was in denial when I got the emails from Bills advertising 60% and 70% discounts on the full line a few weeks before Christmas. It's one thing to flush out the seasonal items - madras shorts in September - but quite another to give away on-going basics when retailers might still be re-stocking. There's only one way to read the situation: for whatever reason, Bills needed immediate cashflow. They couldn't wait 30 days for their merchant customers' billing cycles. They were willing to discount the wholesale price to get paid immediately by MasterCard.

I've talked with the owner of the shop where I get my Bills Khakis. He got the same email the rest of us did. He has no idea what's going on, either.


----------



## Charles Dana

ROI said:


> I hope your source is correct .


I have reason to believe my source is extremely credible.


----------



## niv

I ordered a couple pair of pants from Bill's last week and they both arrived as ordered. Whatever is happening, it appears they are fulfilling orders.


----------



## Robertson

Was curious in trying my first pair despite the problems, but it looks like the BKTHANKS isn't working anymore :-(


----------



## Anon 18th Cent.

Charles Dana said:


> The following post is based on information that I obtained independent of today's e-mail from Bill Thomas.
> 
> I won't betray a confidence, so I'll be discreet. I have learned that Bills Khakis will evidently remain a going concern, in 2016 and beyond. Ideally as a stronger, better-managed company. It is regrouping and catching its breath, so I have been encouraged to understand. Based on what I've determined, there are no plans to turn out the lights for good. What will the overall product line-up look like? I don't know. Where will the goods be manufactured? I don't know. But rumors of the impending death of Bills Khakis are unfounded.
> 
> At this early stage in the reincarnation of Bills Khakis, that's all I can report.


I'll add a slightly less optimistic interpretation. Almost everyone at hq has been fired. The new owners have control of the company, including no doubt the brand name. If I were in their shoes, of course I would explore whether it made sense to reform the company. I highly doubt Bill Thomas will be involved in the new effort, beyond perhaps as an advisor.

If the old company were to continue at all, why would you liquidate everything? Many companies continue in name only.


----------



## meanoldmanning

Robertson said:


> Was curious in trying my first pair despite the problems, but it looks like the BKTHANKS isn't working anymore :-(


 Bkthankyou20 and it still works.


----------



## Cuttington III

As an update, I ordered a couple of items on December 5th. Upon opening the packed when it arrived this Wednesday, I realized I received only half of the order although it was marked as complete when I logged into my account. I emailed the customer care folks as well as Bill himself. Mr. Thomas responded in 10 minutes...no joke. The transition has obviously been tough but I'm hopeful that Bill stays involved for the long haul. I have little doubt everything will get sorted in time.


----------



## tocqueville

Holy crap. The code still works, and it's 70% off the sweaters. So it's now $54. Time to pull the bloody trigger.

Sizing advice? Bills once told me they run large, so if I'm between an M and L I should get the M.

Anyone else?


----------



## toddorbertBU

Of the three orders I made the week after thanksgiving, I've received 2 and was roll the one I didn't receive was out of stock. 
With today's 70% off sale and a lack of Shetlands in my closet, I'm willing to take a gamble.


----------



## tocqueville

There's not much left. But yeah, worth the gamble. I managed to grab the light blue shetland. I hope it fits. If not, it would make a great present. Or I could probably flip it...


----------



## HerrDavid

I'd say it's worth the gamble as well. I took a chance on the $45 original twills earlier in the month and received my pair (and reasonably quickly too).

As for sizing, I owned a Bill's shetland in the past (bought from STP) and did not find it to run large. I wouldn't size down.


----------



## Robertson

I don't have a shetland, but I don't think I could do the Aspen blue or Rose


----------



## FLMike

Robertson said:


> I don't have a shetland, but I don't think I could do the Aspen blue or Rose


Same here....plus, I remembered that I have a closet full of sweaters that I never wear anyway. It's going to be 86 degrees here on Christmas.


----------



## Robertson

FLCracka said:


> Same here....plus, I remembered that I have a closet full of sweaters that I never wear anyway. It's going to be 86 degrees here on Christmas.


It snoweth today at 28F!

The cardigans and cable knits are tempting. That's a pretty good price for made in USA.


----------



## orange fury

Reeeeeally considering gambling with the kelly green shetland....

EDIT: ....which is exactly what I did. Kelly Green Bills shetland incoming, I'll update with my ordering experience


----------



## ROI

tocqueville said:


> Holy crap. The code still works, and it's 70% off the sweaters. So it's now $54. Time to pull the bloody trigger.
> 
> Sizing advice? Bills once told me they run large, so if I'm between an M and L I should get the M.
> 
> Anyone else?


I got a shetland last year. Assuming the sizing has remained the same, they do indeed run at least a half size large. I need all of a 46 in the O'Connell's shetand, and would probably have been better off with a large in Bills.


----------



## Robertson

I'm a pretty standard "medium" (41" chest) - do you think the large might work?


----------



## Fading Fast

Just bought a pair of original twills for my girlfriend's father - button-fly, khaki: $54.50 (down from $165)

And 2 pairs of Selvedge Cramerton, button-fly in khaki for me: $73.50 each (down from $245)

I took a shot on two hoping all is well because, if so, that is an awesome price, if not, I've made bigger mistakes in my life. 

I'll report back when they show up.


----------



## Patrick R

Has anyone here gotten any hemmed pants since this started? Anyone gotten unfinished pants?


----------



## mfs

Patrick R said:


> Has anyone here gotten any hemmed pants since this started? Anyone gotten unfinished pants?


I am being told 2 shirts and 1 travel twill trouser (unhemmed) shipped this past Friday with delivery here on the coast for December 24th. I, like others herein, do have other orders still outstanding as well.


----------



## Boatshoo

I would say that you can order without hesitation, however, I would not recommend exchanges. Also, Edwin is closer to the truth of the situation in the company than anyone else on this thread.


----------



## Patrick R

I have received a couple orders for shirts but no pants since 11/8. Several pairs have been cancelled. Bills has never been good with inventory control and I'm not concerned as I've never been charged until items are shipped. I did order a pair of pre hemmed today. If those come and none of the others do I'll know if my suspicion is correct.


----------



## Boatshoo

From what I understand, they stiffed some people on rather large bills. Maybe their inventory control people didn't get paid?


----------



## Patrick R

That's surprising given that I'm not billed until shipping. Their web site has never been real time inventory. During any big sale I would expect half of my order go unfilled. Judging by these sales they had a huge inventory and they have been adding items that are from previous seasons. Must be finding things in the wear house.
(Edit) bills not orders. Got it.


----------



## Himself

Sierra Trading Post today has shirts called "" for $24.95, or $17.46 w/ coupon. There are madras-like plaids and ginghams, but no mention of the type of fabric. Also, "_made in Bangladesh_."

These may still be a great deal for casual shirts. I would buy if Bills Mediums weren't so oversized (16.5" collar).

I also saw shorts for $12.95.


----------



## blue suede shoes

Reuben said:


> So who offers the next closest thing to a pair of M1's?


My favorite is Ralph Lauren. JosABank's higher end offerings are a close second and still better than Bills, in my humble opinion. Lands End also offers a good selection.


----------



## sonny

has anyone tried their jeans?


----------



## Patrick R

I received an order tonight. Order short one item but shipping slip marked shipped. I was charged for the missing item. I'll See what they do about it tomorrow


----------



## Patrick R

So after holding for 35 mins (understandable) I talked to CS. They were helpful and have taken care of the issue.


----------



## Charles Dana

70% off of everything again today. If you want to chance it, don't forget code BKTHANKYOU20 for an additional 20% off.


----------



## orange fury

Tried calling CS to check on my order since I never received a confirmation email, but I gave up after 10 mins on hold


----------



## Robertson

I think it may be worth trying a pair of Khakis!

I even took a gamble on one of the OCBD's. Very heavy weight fabric for the price.


----------



## Fading Fast

Bought two more pairs for my girlfriend's father - vintage twills in cement - exactly what he wanted. As with my prior purchase, I'll report back when they come.


----------



## Slim Jim

Robertson said:


> I think it may be worth trying a pair of Khakis!
> 
> I even took a gamble on one of the OCBD's. Very heavy weight fabric for the price.


What are ocbds?


----------



## rmpmcdermott

Slim Jim said:


> What are ocbds?


Oxford Cloth Button Down.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

Robertson said:


> I think it may be worth trying a pair of Khakis!
> 
> I even took a gamble on one of the OCBD's. Very heavy weight fabric for the price.


Heavyweight is good, or bad? I know their XL is big on me, but it would make a good Saturday shirt (if anyone cares, I usually buy Brooks 17.5-34 Regent fit, and assume shrinkage).


----------



## FLMike

Slim Jim said:


> What are ocbds?


https://lmgtfy.com/?q=ocbd


----------



## skranish

*Liquidation?*

As a generally happy BK customer, it looks like what is being liquidated is INVENTORY, which makes sense seeing that the company has been acquired and already appears on the Source Capital website. Most likely the purchase agreement required that all inventory be sold, because of both fashion and season, it does not have much shelf life.

See

I realized something was wrong when there were repeated 50%, then 60%, then 70% sales. As I looked around the web searching for information, I was surprised to discover that the company had only 25 to 30 employees. All manufacturing was contracted out.

I do hope Bill's continues pretty much as they were. I like the fit of the M3 pants. The only other pants that I really like the fit are Brooks Brothers Milano.


----------



## FLMike

skranish said:


> As a generally happy BK customer, it looks like what is being liquidated is INVENTORY, which makes sense seeing that the company has been acquired and already appears on the Source Capital website. Most likely the purchase agreement required that all inventory be sold, because of both fashion and season, it does not have much shelf life.
> 
> See
> 
> I realized something was wrong when there were repeated 50%, then 60%, then 70% sales. As I looked around the web searching for information, I was surprised to discover that the company had only 25 to 30 employees. All manufacturing was contracted out.
> 
> I do hope Bill's continues pretty much as they were. I like the fit of the M3 pants. The only other pants that I really like the fit are Brooks Brothers Milano.


BK is already on the Source Capital website because the firm first invested in Biils in June 2014. They made a mezz debt investment in the company. They didn't acquire them so much as they drove a recap of the company that resulted in their debt converting to equity ownership. This is a workout situation. How it ends remains to be seen.


----------



## Patrick R

What's for sure is they are emptying the shelves. There's very little left. I do find it very odd that STP has some shirts marked as made in Bangladesh. As far as I know they have never sold anything other than USA.


----------



## Himself

sonny said:


> has anyone tried their jeans?


I would like to know too, how they fit, etc.

The canvas, and khaki twill ones are appealing.


----------



## Hayek

I just checked the website again. Things seem to be pretty well picked over at this point.


----------



## mfs

I have a pair of denim jeans, Bullard twill 5 pocket (jeans) and canvas 5 pocket. All purchased over the past few years at the Ascot Shop in La Jolla, Cal. The fit, for me, is perfect. I do not like skin tight and do not like old man baggy. They wear well and machine wash easy. I hang dry them.


----------



## SartorialSpender

Does anyone know what size cuffs their $5 cuffing service provides? No information on the website.


----------



## Semper Jeep

SartorialSpender said:


> Does anyone know what size cuffs their $5 cuffing service provides? No information on the website.


It's about an inch and a half if I recall correctly. I can measure for sure when I get home later today. But just from memory, it seemed to be a pretty standard size.


----------



## orange fury

FLCracka said:


> https://lmgtfy.com/?q=ocbd


Ahaha I was thinking of posting the same thing



SartorialSpender said:


> Does anyone know what size cuffs their $5 cuffing service provides? No information on the website.


I dont, but at this point, if you're willing to take the gamble on ordering something, I would just order it asap and get it done locally yourself. The more you request, the more likely it is that your order will get messed up at this point.

spoke to Carolyn (sp?) this morning about my order status from last Friday after a 12 minute wait (not too bad, considering...)- my Shetland sweater is scheduled to be shipped out today, so we'll see what happens. I never received a confirmation email (which she attributed to the ownership change), but at least it appears that my order has been processed.

of course, it's also supposed to be 80*F on Christmas, so it's not like I'll get to wear it anytime soon lol...


----------



## meanoldmanning

Since others have been receiving orders I figured I'd take a gamble and placed two separate orders (because I'm an idiot who likes to pay for shipping twice) over the course of a week - one at 50% off + bkthankyou20 and one at 70% off + bkthankyou20. I received an order confirmations for each plus confirmation yesterday that the first order shipped.


----------



## Robertson

SlideGuitarist said:


> Heavyweight is good, or bad? I know their XL is big on me, but it would make a good Saturday shirt (if anyone cares, I usually buy Brooks 17.5-34 Regent fit, and assume shrinkage).


I think heavy-weight is good. The cheap button-downs I've found at places like Old Navy tend to be very light or thin. My understanding is that an OCBD should be tough and ready for abuse. The thicker the fabric the longer it should last.


----------



## Chris Giakoumakos

I placed an order yesterday for 2 penny loafers and a pair of jeans. Does anyone know what width size the shoes run?


----------



## FLMike

I wasn't aware they sold shoes.


----------



## meanoldmanning

Chris Giakoumakos said:


> I placed an order yesterday for 2 penny loafers and a pair of jeans. Does anyone know what width size the shoes run?


The camp Mocs I have from them are D width.


----------



## meanoldmanning

FLCracka said:


> I wasn't aware they sold shoes.


By Rancourt


----------



## Chris Giakoumakos

I usually wear E in Alenn Edmonds. Do you think that D would be good in the mocs? (will they stretch?)


----------



## meanoldmanning

Chris Giakoumakos said:


> I usually wear E in Alenn Edmonds. Do you think that D would be good in the mocs? (will they stretch?)


My Bill's and the other pair of Rancourts I have are both Chromexcel and they did stretch a bit. They are both 11.5 D and stretched enough that I prefer to wear them with socks, or at least no show socks when I initially could easily get away without. I normally wear an 11.5 D width in most AE shoes. If I were to buy loafers in Chromexcel from Rancourt I'd probably drop to an 11 D.


----------



## wharrell

The news on Bills Khakis is sad. I have been a long standing customer of the M1 Khakis, Calvary Twills and shirts since around 1998.

Just last week I took delivery of 2 pair of the 25th Anniversary M1 Cramerton at $195 each that I had my fine haberdasher bring in for me back in November. With Bills pushing these out around $58.50 on the website, it frankly makes both me and my retailer look stupid. My word to my retailer is golden on my order but Bills pricing antics makes me unsure of what I am actually getting, it cheapens the brand and creates distrust from long standing customers.

I called Bill's in Reading and a reliable employee told me they were all losing their jobs due to 'Bill having lost control of the company'.

The fit of these M1s are nothing like the original M1s and are vastly slimmer in the waist and hips. I am 6'4" 220# so I have always appreciated the M1 model.

I have seen this coming on for years as Bills started making a bunch of junk his solid customer base had no interest in. He essentially let some 25 yr old 'designers' run the company in the ground. 

Carhartt is another iconic American brand that Is perilously close to suffering the same fate.

I truly hope something will come out of what is going on at Bills, but I am afraid the brand is gone and things will be farmed out to China or where ever. What is wrong about making a quality product in America?


----------



## meanoldmanning

wharrell said:


> Carhartt is another iconic American brand that Is perilously close to suffering the same fate.


For me that ship sailed years ago when they shipped sewing and then all production of many/most of their products out of the US.



wharrell said:


> What is wrong about making a quality product in America?


We live in an age of Walmart prices and fast fashion.


----------



## orange fury

FLCracka said:


> I wasn't aware they sold shoes.


I wasn't either, I wish I had known this prior to this whole shutdown/acquisition thing


----------



## Himself

wharrell said:


> The fit of these M1s are nothing like the original M1s and are vastly slimmer in the waist and hips. I am 6'4" 220# so I have always appreciated the M1 model.


I found the Cramerton M2 to be a bit slimmer than the Original. I preferred it for this reason. Maybe the Cramertons were made on a different line, or cut with less margin for shrinkage, or something.

All moot now?

I care less about where something is made, and more about quality and consistency. Bills could be counted on, year after year. They go back a long way with my family, since two siblings worked in a store that carried them from the beginning. I would get a new pair every few years, and wear them into rags -- from blazer duty to everyday wear, to beach pants to working-on-the-car pants. Sometimes I would cut them off to make shorts.

IIRC they used to come rolled in a canvas bucket. I'm sure there are a couple of these somewhere in our house.


----------



## Doctor Damage

wharrell said:


> What is wrong about making a quality product in America?


Two problems: (1) it often costs too much to make, and (2) it's not always better.


----------



## chilton

Are they still doing deals? Doesn't look like it.


----------



## Duvel

For what it's worth, I can say that Twill in the Edina Galleria, according to my visit last week, still carries Bills trousers. In fact, the sales associate I spoke with said he'd heard nothing about their getting discontinued. Which is not to say SAs always know what's going on. Or maybe they just have a large back stock--there were a lot on the shelves.


----------



## Chris Giakoumakos

For what is worth, I put an order in Dec22nd. My credit card shows the charges as "pending". I haven
t received any email from them since and I have called them a couple of times with nobody answering. As I am typing I am 28 min in wait call...


----------



## Charles Dana

Chris Giakoumakos said:


> For what is worth, I put an order in Dec22nd. My credit card shows the charges as "pending". I haven
> t received any email from them since and I have called them a couple of times with nobody answering. As I am typing I am 28 min in wait call...


I'd counsel you to wait a couple more days. I placed an order on December 18th and, other than the immediate e-mail confirmation, it wasn't until today that I received notice stating that the processing was "complete."


----------



## Robertson

Happy news! Bill's shipped my shetlands from a Dec. 18th order.


----------



## Chris Giakoumakos

I feel better now!


----------



## orange fury

Chris Giakoumakos said:


> For what is worth, I put an order in Dec22nd. My credit card shows the charges as "pending". I haven
> t received any email from them since and I have called them a couple of times with nobody answering. As I am typing I am 28 min in wait call...





Robertson said:


> Happy news! Bill's shipped my shetlands from a Dec. 18th order.


I ordered a shetland on Dec 18th that shipped on the 23rd- hopefully it'll come in this week. I never received a tracking number or status update, just confirmation from one of the SA's.


----------



## Fading Fast

I ordered chinos (70% off) on both 12/20 and 12/22 and, other than a confirmation email right after I made the on-line purchase, I haven't received an updated email with tracking or the pants themselves (which, considering they have to be hemmed and it is Christmas time, is not at all surprising). 

I'll keep updating when I know more.


----------



## gamma68

My Dec. 4 order is nowhere in sight. Can't confirm it because I bought as a "guest." Don't feel like sitting on hold for 25+ minutes to talk to someone.

Bills has shot itself in both feet.


----------



## alkydrinker

I decided to order a pair of vintage twills at today's price of $43.75 (hemmed) + $10 shipping.

If they don't actually fulfill the order, I am sure I can reverse the charge.

EDIT: Crap, I figured coupons wouldn't apply to the current low price on the vintage twills, but it turns out you can still get 20% off with bkthankyou20


----------



## Semper Jeep

My December 16th and 18th orders appear to have shipped this morning.



gamma68 said:


> My Dec. 4 order is nowhere in sight. Can't confirm it because I bought as a "guest." Don't feel like sitting on hold for 25+ minutes to talk to someone.
> 
> Bills has shot itself in both feet.


FWIW, I made my first order through the website as a guest around Thanksgiving and never heard back from them. Since I wasn't a registered customer, I couldn't get any info on their site but I emailed their general customer service email address with my name, email address, shipping address, and they replied about 20 minutes later with the details and when it was scheduled to ship.


----------



## Charles Dana

alkydrinker said:


> I decided to order a pair of vintage twills at today's price of $43.75 + $10 shipping .


????? According to the e-mail I received today, all vintage twills are 75% off today, making them $38.75 each.


----------



## Duvel

I think alkydrinker got ripped off!



Charles Dana said:


> ????? According to the e-mail I received today, all vintage twills are 75% off today, making them $38.75 each.


----------



## Orgetorix

Do these deals not show up until after you check out? Everything looks like it's regular price on the website, even if I add an item to my cart.


----------



## Fading Fast

Orgetorix said:


> Do these deals not show up until after you check out? Everything looks like it's regular price on the website, even if I add an item to my cart.


Hi, just on the site - click to the vintage twills, they show up as marked down to $38.75 from $155 once you click on a pair (you don't need to put them in your cart to see the discount). I didn't go through the entire site, but it seems that a lot of things that were on sale aren't any more - but the vintage twills still are. Good luck.


----------



## alkydrinker

Duvel said:


> I think alkydrinker got ripped off!


Sorry, I gave the price AFTER $5.00 hemming add-on. They are indeed $38.75 unfinished.

But don't forget the extra 20% off with bkthankyou20 like I did.


----------



## gamma68

Semper Jeep said:


> FWIW, I made my first order through the website as a guest around Thanksgiving and never heard back from them. Since I wasn't a registered customer, I couldn't get any info on their site but I emailed their general customer service email address with my name, email address, shipping address, and they replied about 20 minutes later with the details and when it was scheduled to ship.


I emailed Bills customer service a while back about my order but never received a reply.


----------



## Duvel

Whew. Well, good!





alkydrinker said:


> Sorry, I gave the price AFTER $5.00 hemming add-on. They are indeed $38.75 unfinished.
> 
> But don't forget the extra 20% off with bkthankyou20 like I did.


----------



## Fading Fast

I think I've kept up with this thread, but might have missed a few posts along the way: is there a definitive answer as to what is going on with Bill's? 

Are they imploding, going out of business, just clearing excess inventory? Are people getting their orders, are they coming correct, are charges right, etc.? 

I put in two orders back on 12/20 and 12/22 and got an accurate confirm email (immediately), but since then nothing - no charges to the card, no emails giving status update or tracking numbers. It's been a few years since I've ordered from Bill's, so I don't remember how they used to do it, but most on-line stores today seem to give a few email updates (item ready to ship, tracking number update, etc.) pretty soon after your purchase and usually the charge hits when the item ships.


----------



## Patrick R

Fading Fast said:


> I think I've kept up with this thread, but might have missed a few posts along the way: is there a definitive answer as to what is going on with Bill's?
> 
> Are they imploding, going out of business, just clearing excess inventory? Are people getting their orders, are they coming correct, are charges right, etc.?
> 
> I put in two orders back on 12/20 and 12/22 and got an accurate confirm email (immediately), but since then nothing - no charges to the card, no emails giving status update or tracking numbers. It's been a few years since I've ordered from Bill's, so I don't remember how they used to do it, but most on-line stores today seem to give a few email updates (item ready to ship, tracking number update, etc.) pretty soon after your purchase and usually the charge hits when the item ships.


The people truly in the know aren't going to be talking about it but they are selling everything they have on hand. There have been a few things pop up online that I know are from previous seasons.
I haven't had any issues. A couple things that sold out and they simply didn't ship them with no explanation but I was not charged.
I received today an order from 12/16. Three pair of hemmed m2.


----------



## Fading Fast

Patrick R said:


> The people truly in the know aren't going to be talking about it but they are selling everything they have on hand. There have been a few things pop up online that I know are from previous seasons.
> I haven't had any issues. A couple things that sold out and they simply didn't ship them with no explanation but I was not charged.
> I received today an order from 12/16. Three pair of hemmed m2.


Thank you so much.

My less-than-informed opinion is that it doesn't look good when this happens. Seems like a liquidation to me.

And based on your order date, my first order should show up in 4 days or so.

Enjoy your new pants.


----------



## orange fury

I just tried calling customer service for an order update- the first call got a busy signal, the second call got a "your call can not be completed at this time- please try again later". 

Just a heads up.


----------



## Duvel

The upshot of all this is don't buy from Bills Khakis online.


----------



## Fading Fast

Duvel said:


> The upshot of all this is don't buy from Bills Khakis online.


Or this is a palliated going-out-of-business sale and for 70% off there was, at least a week ago, a really good selection. So as long as they don't charge you unless they send you your order, then IMHO, it's worth the risk of not getting what you ordered. But if the six pairs I ordered (2 for me, 4 for my girlfriend's father) show up in the right size, etc., then that's a home run.

But to your point, if this is how they plan to do business on a going-forward basis, they are going to have endless customer complaints and a reputation in the garbage can.


----------



## FLMike

Fading Fast said:


> Or this is a palliated going-out-of-business sale and for 70% off there was, at least a week ago, a really good selection. So as long as they don't charge you unless they send you your order, then IMHO, it's worth the risk of not getting what you ordered. But if the six pairs I ordered (2 for me, 4 for my girlfriend's father) show up in the right size, etc., then that's a home run.
> 
> But to your point,* if this is how they plan to do business on a going-forward basis, they are going to have endless customer complaints and a reputation in the garbage can*.


I think that really depends on how they're treating their wholesale accounts. That's their bread and butter, so to speak. They only started selling direct to consumers via their website in recent years, and it probably accounts for a small percentage of their overall revenues during normal times (though higher margin, to be sure...depending on how well they manage fulfillment).

Which brings up a good point. We've heard plenty of anecdotes from folks dealing with their retail channel customer service. Has anyone spoken to any of their wholesale customers to see what the messaging has been and how they're dealing with the channel that makes up the bulk of their business historically?


----------



## FLMike

gamma68 said:


> My Dec. 4 order is nowhere in sight. Can't confirm it because I bought as a "guest." Don't feel like sitting on hold for 25+ minutes to talk to someone.
> 
> *Bills has shot itself in both feet.*


See my post above. Any potential damage to their image would likely come from mishandling of their wholesale channel. The collective experience of the online retail customers during this process (whatever it is) is unlikely to be enough to move the needle of brand sentiment overall.


----------



## Robertson

I ordered another 3 pairs, at $30 each seems worth the risk... especially with my recent order shipping!

I can always chargeback the American Express if they no show.


----------



## Slim Jim

Does anybody know what year they started selling direct to customers?
This could also be a reason they ran into trouble.


----------



## caravan70

meanoldmanning said:


> Agreed, but I still don't have my pants.


Sad. I have a bunch of them, but I'll be sad not to be able to obtain others. Great pants.


----------



## mkrgk

You may not get multiples of what you ordered (order 2 but get only 1) but the merchandise is getting shipped. And they are not charging the credit card till the shipment is out the door.


----------



## JLibourel

Just ordered a pair of Vintage Twills in olive at 75% off. Everything seemed to go smoothly. I am just hopeful I get 'em!


----------



## Charles Dana

Robertson said:


> I ordered another 3 pairs, at $30 each seems worth the risk... especially with my recent order shipping!
> 
> I can always chargeback the American Express if they no show.


Robertson, you said the magic word: "chargeback." If credit card customers do not receive merchandise for which they have been charged, that's solid grounds for a chargeback. The only hassle is you'd have to spend a few minutes composing and sending a dispute letter to your credit card issuer, in accordance with the federal Fair Credit Billing Act.

I'm aware that Bills Khakis is going through a period of transition and upheaval, and that, as a result, the company has been inconsistent lately in filling orders. Nonetheless, I've ordered a few things from Bills since December 18th. I figure that if the company wants to practically give away products that I know I will use and enjoy, I will be happy to take them. Might as well get while the getting's good--these discounts are unprecedented and are unlikely to recur once all the dust settles.

By charging the orders to my Visa, I know I won't get defrauded. That's the nice thing about using a credit card. If I receive the orders, I win. If Bills doesn't ship the orders, it's extremely improbable that they will charge my account, so I lose nothing. And in the highly unlikely event they do charge my account without forking over the goods, I dispute the bill and a non-rebuttable chargeback takes place. Again, I lose nothing. (Sure, I'm mildly disappointed, but I'm not out any cash, other than the postage required to send the dispute letter, if it comes to that. Which it probably won't.)

So at best, I win. At worst, I don't lose.


----------



## meanoldmanning

My Bills order from 22nd December shipped today.


----------



## CornoUltimo

I ordered 2 pair of the vintage twill in olive and british khaki...so far so good, but fingers crossed.


----------



## ButchHusy

What discount codes are you all using? Even when I put the pants in my cart, they still show up as full price.


----------



## Reuben

Well, I'm in for two khakis, a british, and an olive vintage twill for $130 total cuffed, lets see if they deliver.


----------



## Old Road Dog

I bought a pair this month from a traditional menswear retailer in a very small market who is a wholesale account of Bill's. They have the pants marked below cost (that's over 50% off in other terms). I didn't ask about the manufacturer's status, but I might call them to order another pair (which I know they don't have) just to see what they say about when they could fill my order. That might prompt a comment.

Like many others here, I'm sad to see a great resource go away. I was in an Orvis store today and their pants aren't anywhere near the look and make of Bill's, in my opinion, and very "imported" looking detailing.


----------



## gsgolf54

My order from the 22nd also shipped today. They must be running at a week for processing orders. Two pair of Chamois cloth for a total of $89 incl shipping is a good deal in my book!


----------



## Robertson

Well, only my wife's shetland came. The order says "complete" and it looks like they billed me for only half the order, so I'm guessing I wont get my shetland :-(


----------



## meanoldmanning

I just got an email from 'Bill Thomas' that one of my previously cancelled orders for wool trousers had been cancelled, again, and was given a 15% discount code that expires in 4 days. Not sure what I would use the discount code for since there isn't anything left in my size on the site.


----------



## Duvel

Wow. A lot of frustrating experiences here. Goodbye, Bills... .


----------



## Fading Fast

gsgolf54 said:


> My order from the 22nd also shipped today. They must be running at a week for processing orders. Two pair of Chamois cloth for a total of $89 incl shipping is a good deal in my book!


Hi, how do you know it shipped today? Did you get an email or did your "order status" on the site change to "shipped?" My orders from 12/20 and 12/22 both still say "processing" on the site. Thank you for any info you can provide.

I'm with Duvel on this one - this feels like a death rattle to me.


----------



## Charles Dana

Fading Fast said:


> Hi, how do you know it shipped today? Did you get an email or did your "order status" on the site change to "shipped?" My orders from 12/20 and 12/22 both still say "processing" on the site. Thank you for any info you can provide.
> 
> I'm with Duvel on this one - this feels like a death rattle to me.


When Bills Khakis finally ships your order (or whatever parts of your order are in stock), you will receive an e-mail stating that you order is "complete." The e-mail will also contain a package tracking number. Then if you go to the order tracking section of the Bills Khakis web site and log in, your order will show "complete" rather than "processing." There will also be a link in that section that, once you click it, will take you directly to the UPS website, where you will immediately see the status of your package--where it is now and when it will be delivered. That's assuming there's a package to ship!!


----------



## Fading Fast

Charles Dana said:


> When Bills Khakis finally ships your order (or whatever parts of your order are in stock), you will receive an e-mail stating that you order is "complete." The e-mail will also contain a package tracking number. Then if you go to the order tracking section of the Bills Khakis web site and log in, your order will show "complete" rather than "processing." There will also be a link in that section that, once you click it, will take you directly to the UPS website, where you will immediately see the status of your package--where it is now and when it will be delivered. That's assuming there's a package to ship!!


Thank you.


----------



## Anon 18th Cent.

ButchHusy said:


> What discount codes are you all using? Even when I put the pants in my cart, they still show up as full price.


Same for me.


----------



## Chris Giakoumakos

Update: Still no news for my order. Just checked my bank account and that 200 something dollars payment that was pending is no longer there. So I was never charged which means that I am not going to get my 2 pairs of shoes and jeans..


----------



## FLMike

Chris Giakoumakos said:


> Update: Still no news for my order. Just checked my bank account and that 200 something dollars payment that was pending is no longer there. So I was never charged which means that I am not going to get my 2 pairs of shoes and jeans..


What kind of shoes does Bills sell?


----------



## meanoldmanning

FLCracka said:


> What kind of shoes does Bills sell?


Loafers and Mocs generally mad by Rancourt.


----------



## Patrick R

Chris Giakoumakos said:


> Update: Still no news for my order. Just checked my bank account and that 200 something dollars payment that was pending is no longer there. So I was never charged which means that I am not going to get my 2 pairs of shoes and jeans..


Not necessarily. At least on a debit card they do a 3 day hold that falls off and then you are charged at the time of shipping. Hopefully you get the shoes it was a fantastic deal at 70%.

I received a shipping notice for a 12/20 order. Ive bought far more than I should have but may never get a better price.

The only risk I see is getting something that doesn't fit or just not getting everything. I have not seen any evidence that they are keeping money for undelivered goods. 
I wish there were a retailer near me to try on some coats. Eventually the stores will mark down to 70% or go back to bills.


----------



## msphotog

I have actually recently gotten 4 shirts that I ordered, although it did take a week or so to ship them. BTW, For those who don't know, the discount is appliedat checkout. There should be a colored bar at the top of the page that indicates this...


----------



## Fading Fast

If it helps others, I just got email notification over night that my order from 12/20 (4 pairs of pants all with hemming requested) is shipping and, per the tracking info, should arrive 1/4. Nothing yet on my 12/22 order, but that makes sense if they are processing in order.


----------



## gamma68

Sent an email to Bills two days ago requesting status of my Dec. 4 order. Crickets.


----------



## meanoldmanning

gamma68 said:


> Sent an email to Bills two days ago requesting status of my Dec. 4 order. Crickets.


Try their wholesale number

(800) 435-4254


----------



## Brigadier Cheape

ButchHusy said:


> What discount codes are you all using? Even when I put the pants in my cart, they still show up as full price.


I had the same experience two days ago. The vintage twills were the only ones showing a discount @ +-$38, the rest stayed at full price. The bkthankyou20 code took the additional 20% off at checkout, though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chilton

Brigadier Cheape said:


> I had the same experience two days ago. The vintage twills were the only ones showing a discount @ +-$38, the rest stayed at full price. The bkthankyou20 code took the additional 20% off at checkout, though.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ugh, I've checked several times over the past two weeks and see no discount


----------



## Corcovado

gamma68 said:


> Sent an email to Bills two days ago requesting status of my Dec. 4 order. Crickets.


I had placed an order in mid November that never arrived although I was charged for it. They stopped replying to my emails so a few days ago I contacted my credit company and disputed the charge. Not ordering any more from their web site.


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## CSG

Why anyone is still placing orders with them is outside my understanding. This seems to need to be filed under, "You can fool some of the people all the time..."


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## Robertson

CSG said:


> Why anyone is still placing orders with them is outside my understanding. This seems to need to be filed under, "You can fool some of the people all the time..."


75% discount...


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## adept

I like to chase sales as much as anybody, but due to my unusual dimensions, or because they are common, not sure which, the clearance merchandise never fits me.

I used to get great deals on clearance merchandise that I knew might be slightly the wrong size, but one thing I've learned by frequenting this site is to place a greater emphasis on fit. This ends up trumping a lot of 'deals'.


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## linklaw

I got an email saying they were out of stock on some pants I ordered in November. As a consolation they gave me a code for 15% off on my next purchase. I don't think I will be using it.


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## FLMike

CSG said:


> *Why anyone is still placing orders with them is outside my understanding.* This seems to need to be filed under, "You can fool some of the people all the time..."





Robertson said:


> 75% discount...


Bingo. In my world, we call it "risk/reward".


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## Charles Dana

CSG said:


> Why anyone is still placing orders with them is outside my understanding. This seems to need to be filed under, "You can fool some of the people all the time..."


Why I placed a couple of orders recently:

75% discount + 20% discount + products that I've long wanted but I that I 
thought were too expensive until now + the protection of using a credit card + knowing there was a chance I would not receive my order + being able to handle the small disappointment should that be the case + this chance won't come again = Place an order.

If I receive what I ordered, fine. If I don't, I don't. I won't be any worse off than I was before December 18th, when I placed my first order.


----------



## adept

I'm not as concerned about refund of the sales price as I am about the $ of return shipping...get's me every time.


----------



## Old Road Dog

In the past two months, I have received zero answers to my multiple inquiries about an outstanding order and no responses to two emails canceling same order. I did get a verbal excuse (before the liquidation) that they did not have the cloth (khaki twill...as in Bill's *Khakis*), but they would "after the first of the year". They didn't say which year. Check around with their retail affiliates. Some of them are at 50+% discount and they have alteration departments. That's what I did finally.


----------



## Old Road Dog

*Return shipping costs?*

To: Adept
Do you seriously think they will accept returns of goods sold at 70% off?:fool: Good luck, brother.


----------



## adept

Old Road Dog said:


> To: Adept
> Do you seriously think they will accept returns of goods sold at 70% off?:fool: Good luck, brother.


In a fire sale, heck no...guess I drifted off topic and intended to address mail orders in general.

If you read back a ways, you'll see I earlier characterized this feeding frenzy as foolhardy...when they took too long to refund a return last Summer, I lost interest regardless of the deal. Still, others see this as a great opportunity, wish them well...!


----------



## Boatshoo

From my current understanding, they laid off approx 2/3 of the company with most of the rest coming in the next few weeks. As far as I've heard, Bill is still there, but most everyone else is gone. As for wholesale, they havent paid their sales reps in months, so I'm guessing that they will only fill orders for stores if they have the product. I'd also bet that the only Spring product they'll sell is stuff they still have on their shelf from last spring.


----------



## ROI

Update: My experience has been the same as many others. Fairly early in the process, I ordered 8 shirts and a dozen pairs of boxers at between 70% and 80% off. I got all of that exactly as ordered. When the hysteria started, I sifted through the remains and found that the basic pique polo shirt was still in stock in my size. As an experiment as much as out of a desire to own still more navy and white polo shirts (so what if they sit in the drawer for a few summers), I ordered a couple on 12/18/15. 

Now, the order still appears at the head of my list of orders (all other are complete) on the Bills site. The details and pricing are correct. The status is "Processing". There's no evidence on the AE site that my account as been billed. Maybe they'll show up; maybe they won't. 

My bigger concern right now is when the Drake's site will go on sale and what kind of inventory they'll add. Should be this week.


----------



## orange fury

Update on mine: received a notification from UPS that my sweater should come in on Tuesday. I wouldn't have known that if it weren't for UPS, since Bills never sent me a confirmation email, shipping email, etc.


----------



## gsgolf54

My update: Ordered two pair, one Chamois in khaki and a Travel Twill in khaki, on 11/22, They went through the "Processing" step and were shipped on 11/29. Received them this morning. The packaging was bare minimum with the pants being placed in a poly shipping bag with an invoice,not even plastic bags around each pair. This is the third order I've received from Bill's during their "fire sale" and have had no problems whatsoever. The only comment/complaint I have is the varied colors of "khaki" I have received. I have received Original Twills, Chamois Pant and the Travel Twill all in the color "khaki" and all three are very different. It doesn't bother me, especially since I have paid no more than $42 for any of the pants. Just an observation.


----------



## Fading Fast

My update:

First order went in 12/20, I got an email last week that it was shipping and UPS tracking shows it should arrive today (I'll update when that happens)

Second order went in 12/22 - still "processing," seems to be taking longer than the first order


----------



## Palmer_Woodrow

I just got off the phone with customer service. This confirmed that any orders which were "processing" from November and December will not be shipping at those deeply discounted prices as they are out of stock. They are, as everyone knows, going through a restructuring and inventory liquidation.

The Bill's website was to go down yesterday (I assume at midnight) but because of a glitch, was still up. It will be going down and an e-mail will go out to everyone on their e-mail list when the website is back up. (No date given)

I was however able to get a sweater I was wanting in size medium at 75% off plus free shipping, which I appreciate.

As for the payments, like everyone who has used Visa check cards, I had a 3 day hold for processing and then those holds fell off, even for items which did ship, actually being billed on my card the day after the order arrived.

Overall, while I'm bummed to have not received some trousers I wanted, they treated me very fairly and I was able to restock my wardrobe at a song.

Now I just hope that after restructuring they retain those core products those of us who have enjoyed Bill's have come to rely upon.

Note - To those who have wondered about their relationship with their retailers, that was ruined a few years ago when they began selling direct to the public. For more on that, refer to my comments in my blog:
https://thelifeofanangloamerican.blogspot.com/2015/12/requiem-for-bills-khakis.html


----------



## godan

Thanks for the link to your clear account of Bill's demise. Their last three catalogs were so absurd that I thought something had come amiss. After I learned that the M3 model was essentially a "drop in" fit for me, needing only to be cuffed, I incrementally bought a lifetime supply, stopping by the STP mothership in Cheyenne a few times a year. Your blog is fascinating, and I will surely visit it again. I encountered Lightfoot's soap while staying at a club in Chicago many years ago, and am delighted to know it is now available as a shaving soap as well.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

Palmer_Woodrow said:


> I just got off the phone with customer service. This confirmed that any orders which were "processing" from November and December will not be shipping at those deeply discounted prices as they are out of stock...


Does this mean they're not shipping at all? I ordered two pairs of corduroys on Nov. 30...I'm never going to see them, right?


----------



## Fading Fast

SlideGuitarist said:


> Does this mean they're not shipping at all? I ordered two pairs of corduroys on Nov. 30...I'm never going to see them, right?


I put in an order on 12/20 that shipped last week that is, based on UPS tracking, going to arrive today. So if nothing has happened on your 11/30 order, you might want to call (I called and it took me about 25 minutes of wait time for a live rep, but they were very helpful and, with my order number, were able to give me a update). Good luck.


----------



## orange fury

UPS updated the delivery date on my sweater to today, so we'll see.


----------



## Palmer_Woodrow

SlideGuitarist said:


> Does this mean they're not shipping at all? I ordered two pairs of corduroys on Nov. 30...I'm never going to see them, right?


Don't quote me, but I would suspect you won't. My orders which have shipped were sent out maybe a week after I ordered them. most were single item orders. The one which was two pair of trousers, one shipped and the other did not. The pair not shipped I will not see, but was never charged for them other than a debit card hold for the first three days. Of the three pair of trousers I will not see, two had back order dates and one did not, but the pair without the back order date was part of that order not shipped.


----------



## meanoldmanning

My final order arrived as expected today. Only the two orders for wool trousers from back November were cancelled and obviously never shipped.


----------



## CornoUltimo

I can only hope that my vintage twill order from 12/29 gets through, but I doubt it...


----------



## JLibourel

CornoUltimo said:


> I can only hope that my vintage twill order from 12/29 gets through, but I doubt it...


Same here! I took advantage of the same offer. If they don't have product and aren't shipping, why are they continuing to make these discount offers right up to the present?


----------



## Fading Fast

My 12/20 ordered arrived last night and all was as ordered - 3 pairs of pants - the Army Cramerton twills. Absolutely beautiful pants. My credit card was billed the correct (75% discounted) amount. This was a big win

Now I'm still waiting for an update on my 12/22 order which I'm beginning to suspect won't be fulfilled as I heard well over a week ago that my 12/20 order was complete, but have heard nothing on this one which was put in only two days after the 12/20 one. 

Oh well, still a big win


----------



## Fading Fast

Additional update (to the post immediately above). I called Bills (twenty minutes on hold) and asked about my second order, the one from 12/22. He said, the two pants in that ordered would ship out this week. I asked him if it was odd that it was coming a week or more after an order I put in only two days before the order in question and he said no as they are incredibly swamped because of the sale. 

As to my first order - the Cramerton twills. They are a beautiful, heavy weight twill, button fly that look very traditional army chino to my eye - we've all seen them in movies and pictures from the 50s. They came very "new" looking so I threw them in the washer and drier to give them a bit of a "softer" look and just put them on an hour or so ago. They are fantastic.


----------



## gamma68

No one from Bills ever responded to my multiple emails about my Dec. 4 order. I don't like waiting on the phone for more than 15 minutes. But I see my credit card was never billed for my order anyway. It's as if my order never existed.

This is a very discouraging experience. It's shoddy business practice to offer goods that don't exist or that you can't fulfill, no matter what state the business is currently in.


----------



## adept

> I don't like waiting on the phone for more than 15 minutes.


Would seem more than patient!


----------



## Patrick R

Fading Fast said:


> My 12/20 ordered arrived last night and all was as ordered - 3 pairs of pants - the Army Cramerton twills. Absolutely beautiful pants. My credit card was billed the correct (75% discounted) amount. This was a big win
> 
> Now I'm still waiting for an update on my 12/22 order which I'm beginning to suspect won't be fulfilled as I heard well over a week ago that my 12/20 order was complete, but have heard nothing on this one which was put in only two days after the 12/20 one.
> 
> Oh well, still a big win


X2 on the button fly Cramerton twill. These are nice and at first inspection are superior to the 25th anniversary pant. (I think they are from a previous season) Mine went to the dry cleaner for a nice crisp crease. Some get pressed and some I just wash. Like the vintage twill. Those don't hold a crease at all.
This has been a good time for me to get some better fitting khakis at a great price. I dropped two inches over the summer.
I do wish I'd been able to get some wool and flannel lined, but those must have sold fast.
The only issue I've had was taken care of, and they threw in a t-shirt for the trouble.


----------



## Fading Fast

Patrick R said:


> X2 on the button fly Cramerton twill. These are nice and at first inspection are superior to the 25th anniversary pant. (I think they are from a previous season) Mine went to the dry cleaner for a nice crisp crease. Some get pressed and some I just wash. Like the vintage twill. Those don't hold a crease at all.
> This has been a good time for me to get some better fitting khakis at a great price. I dropped two inches over the summer.
> I do wish I'd been able to get some wool and flannel lined, but those must have sold fast.
> The only issue I've had was taken care of, and they threw in a t-shirt for the trouble.


I'm like a kid on Christmas morning, I've been wearing them ever since they came out of the dryer. I think they would look great with a hard crease - very military. But for my lifestyle, a "worn" casual look works better and these came out of the washer-dryer wonderfully not-pressed, but not wrinkled. And I love the button fly.


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## Charles Dana

The BillsKhakis.com web site finally went down today. All it consists of now is one page stating that BillsKhakis.com will return in early February with "fresh goods, your old favorites, and fewer errors."

"Fewer errors"? Wow--what a weird way to put it. Not exactly the best wording to use if you want to entice customers into giving the re-launch a chance.


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## orange fury

Look what finally came in:


Great color and fits really well, so for $60, I guess I won this gamble.


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## gamma68

Charles Dana said:


> The BillsKhakis.com web site finally went down today. All it consists of now is one page stating that BillsKhakis.com will return in early February with "fresh goods, your old favorites, and fewer errors."
> 
> "Fewer errors"? Wow--what a weird way to put it. Not exactly the best wording to use if you want to entice customers into giving the re-launch a chance.


Does that mean Bills will fulfill my Dec. 4 order when they re-launch in February? Ehh, probably not. See the disclaimer they put at the bottom of their web page (below). I wonder whatever happened to those waaaay overpriced darted two-button Harris Tweed jackets that were last listed at $900+ dollars that were on their website as of yesterday?

I also find it interesting that they're asking for email addresses on that web page. Looks like they need to rebuild a mailing list.

Yes, I'm cranky about Bills shoddy business practices during their fire sale. At the least, I should have received some response to my multiple emails about my order.

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that, on November 18, 2015, BK Acquisition, LLC (BK Acquisition) purchased substantially all of the assets of W.Thomas Co.(d/b/a Bills Khakis) through a sale conducted in accordance with Article 9 of the Pennsylvania Uniform Commercial Code (UCC). ​BillsKhakis.com is operated by BK Acquisition. BK Acquisition is a third-party company that did not assume any liabilities or responsibilities of W.Thomas Co.


----------



## FLMike

gamma68 said:


> Does that mean Bills will fulfill my Dec. 4 order when they re-launch in February? Ehh, probably not. See the disclaimer they put at the bottom of their web page (below). I wonder whatever happened to those waaaay overpriced darted two-button Harris Tweed jackets that were last listed at $900+ dollars that were on their website as of yesterday?
> 
> I also find it interesting that they're asking for email addresses on that web page. Looks like they need to rebuild a mailing list.
> 
> Yes, I'm cranky about Bills shoddy business practices during their fire sale. At the least, I should have received some response to my multiple emails about my order.
> 
> LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that, on November 18, 2015, BK Acquisition, LLC (BK Acquisition) purchased substantially all of the assets of W.Thomas Co.(d/b/a Bills Khakis) through a sale conducted in accordance with Article 9 of the Pennsylvania Uniform Commercial Code (UCC). ​BillsKhakis.com is operated by BK Acquisition. BK Acquisition is a third-party company that did not assume any liabilities or responsibilities of W.Thomas Co.


That language at the bottom is just typical M&A legal reps & warranties stuff. Standard in a change of ownership, asset sale (vs stock sale).

Regarding the overpriced HT jackets....next stop in the excess inventory sell-off process is likely the off-price retailers, who buy the stuff for an even steeper discount than 70%, believe it or not. So be on the lookout at your local Maxx, Marshalls, Ross, etc.


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## Patrick R

gamma68 said:


> Yes, I'm cranky about Bills shoddy business practices during their fire sale. At the least, I should have received some response to my multiple emails about my order.


Can't argue with that but this sale has been run basically the same as any other they've had in the last number of years (just longer and beeper discounts) I learned quickly that whenever they had a big sale I was likely to only get about half of what I ordered. Maybe I'd get an email explaining maybe not.
If they reorganize and relaunch it could be a better bills. We will see.


----------



## Pentheos

Seems like picking over the bones, and complaining your cut isn't juicy enough. No offense.


----------



## gamma68

Patrick R said:


> Can't argue with that but this sale has been run basically the same as any other they've had in the last number of years (just longer and beeper discounts) I learned quickly that whenever they had a big sale I was likely to only get about half of what I ordered. Maybe I'd get an email explaining maybe not.
> If they reorganize and relaunch it could be a better bills. We will see.


I never had problems with ordering and receiving items with past Bills sales. This recent series of sales was a complete mess, as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad most folks got their items, though.

I'll be surprised if Bills actually relaunches in February. That's only a month from now.

"Fresh goods, your old favorites, fewer errors." Well, I didn't receive an old favorite from a Dec. 4 order, and how much fresher and better can Bills really be in four scant weeks? Is a whole new warehouse of Chinese-made khakis ready for shipment?

Call me cynical. But I'm really displeased with the lack of response about my order that was never fulfilled or responded to in any way. If I ran my business that way, I'd be out of business real fast.


----------



## gamma68

Pentheos said:


> Seems like picking over the bones, and complaining your cut isn't juicy enough. No offense.


I hope you're not referring to me, because I wound up receiving nothing. No bones to pick over.


----------



## Anon 18th Cent.

Pentheos said:


> Seems like picking over the bones, and complaining your cut isn't juicy enough. No offense.


+1. No doubt Bill Thomas lost his shirt in this.


----------



## FLMike

Edwin Ek said:


> +1. No doubt Bill Thomas lost his shirt in this.


Hopefully, he was able to keep his pants...khakis, of course.


----------



## xcubbies

gamma68 said:


> I never had problems with ordering and receiving items with past Bills sales. This recent series of sales was a complete mess, as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad most folks got their items, though.
> 
> I'll be surprised if Bills actually relaunches in February. That's only a month from now.
> 
> "Fresh goods, your old favorites, fewer errors." Well, I didn't receive an old favorite from a Dec. 4 order, and how much fresher and better can Bills really be in four scant weeks? Is a whole new warehouse of Chinese-made khakis ready for shipment?
> 
> Call me cynical. But I'm really displeased with the lack of response about my order that was never fulfilled or responded to in any way. If I ran my business that way, I'd be out of business real fast.


Don't be bitter, Gamma. Think of all the great deals you've gotten on Ebay, which most of us covet. I'm sure your ship will come in, if you're patient.


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## Orgetorix

Complaining about not receiving an order you placed after reading numerous posts here about the company going belly-up takes a lot of gumption.


----------



## Balfour

Orgetorix said:


> Complaining about not receiving an order you placed after reading numerous posts here about the company going belly-up takes a lot of gumption.


Why? It is perfectly reasonable to expect a company that continues to trade to fulfil its obligations. If it cannot do so, it should stop accepting orders or seek bankruptcy protection. This is especially the case in a firesale situation, where the company is offloading stock at discount prices. Even if it has gone 'belly up', selling the stock is presumably still considered to be in its commercial interests.


----------



## gamma68

Orgetorix said:


> Complaining about not receiving an order you placed after reading numerous posts here about the company going belly-up takes a lot of gumption.


First, I agree with everything Balfour says above.

Second, I placed my order for 1 item on Dec. 4, prior to widespread posts about the company going belly-up. I'm not going to retrace the thread from the beginning, but as I recall, the big discounts from Bills were just starting at that time. Liquidation was a conjectural theory. In any event, I ordered a product they're trying to liquidate.

Third, I've seen numerous posts here from folks who ordered long after Dec. 4 who received their orders.

Lastly, if you read my entire post, you'd see that a big part of my disappointment stems from absolute complete lack of response from Bills customers service.

I suspect if you were in my position, you'd feel the same way about the sloppy fire sale.


----------



## rmpmcdermott

Orgetorix said:


> Complaining about not receiving an order you placed after reading numerous posts here about the company going belly-up takes a lot of gumption.


Echoing Gamma and Balfour, if a company is selling a product, regardless of the discount, it's reasonable to think you should receive it or, in Gamma's case, at least get a response from the company saying they can't fill the order.


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## gamma68

For the hell of it, I called Bills to see if I could get any information whatsoever about my order.

After sitting on hold for 25 minutes, a woman answered! She says no orders prior to Dec. 20 will be filled. She had no explanation other than "we're going through a transition." As far as she knows, the company will re-launch in early February, but has no idea what products will be offered or where they'll be made.


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## orange fury

Kind of surprised I got mine then, I placed my order on the 18th


----------



## gsgolf54

+1...I ordered on the 20th and the 22nd and received both my orders. IMHO, gamma has a legitimate complaint.


----------



## vpkozel

I agree. I mean can you imagine the gaul of those folks at Bills to deal with the potential death of their company and loss of their jobs, finding a new job, an increase in orders because of the slashed prices so poorly. How SELFISH!!!!!


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## tocqueville

My sweaters arrived. They are lovely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## xcubbies

gamma68 said:


> For the hell of it, I called Bills to see if I could get any information whatsoever about my order.
> 
> After sitting on hold for 25 minutes, a woman answered! She says no orders prior to Dec. 20 will be filled. She had no explanation other than "we're going through a transition." As far as she knows, the company will re-launch in early February, but has no idea what products will be offered or where they'll be made.


I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on television, but I've watched enough Perry Mason to conclude that this might be an actionable situation. I'm waiting for an item, what I won't say because I thing it would put a curse on my order, but if it doesn't work out I think a class action might be in store for Bills, especially if we can get other dissatisfied AAAT members to join up. Can I count on you, Gamma? Anyone else?


----------



## smmrfld

xcubbies said:


> I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on television, but I've watched enough Perry Mason to conclude that this might be an actionable situation. I'm waiting for an item, what I won't say because I thing it would put a curse on my order, but if it doesn't work out I think a class action might be in store for Bills, especially if we can get other dissatisfied AAAT members to join up. Can I count on you, Gamma? Anyone else?


And what exactly would you hope to achieve with said action?


----------



## JLibourel

Orgetorix said:


> Complaining about not receiving an order you placed after reading numerous posts here about the company going belly-up takes a lot of gumption.


Actually, it arguably shows a lack of "gumption" in the proper sense of the word, i.e., "common sense" or "good sense." Because it most commonly appear in the phrase "grit and gumption," its meaning his become confounded with that of "grit."

Actually, since we know Bill's is not charging people's credit cards for goods not delivered, those of us who have ventured to place an order for these deeply discounted goods will be no worse off except for some dashed expectations. However, if my general happiness and sense of well being would be seriously diminished by owning only a dozen Bill's khakis rather than a baker's dozen, I think my psychological problems would be far greater than any occasioned by minor shortcomings in my wardrobe.


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## adept

Missing out on a deal can be very frustrating...it's happened to me a few times lately, sometimes it's hard to get over...:mad2:


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## FLMike

xcubbies said:


> I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on television, but I've watched enough Perry Mason to conclude that this might be an actionable situation. I'm waiting for an item, what I won't say because I thing it would put a curse on my order, but if it doesn't work out I think a class action might be in store for Bills, especially if we can get other dissatisfied AAAT members to join up. Can I count on you, Gamma? Anyone else?


And, what exactly would be the loss or harm suffered? Pain and suffering brought on by the frustration of not receiving your order? Oh, and if by some miracle you won a judgment of some sort, I sense you'll have to take your place at the back of a pretty long line of creditors whose collective claims far outnumber the company's assets. Hence, their current predicament.


----------



## xcubbies

smmrfld said:


> And what exactly would you hope to achieve with said action?


Monetary compensation for acute aggravation, coupled with extreme disappointment.


----------



## WillBarrett

xcubbies said:


> Monetary compensation for acute aggravation, coupled with extreme disappointment.


 Bless your heart.


----------



## smmrfld

xcubbies said:


> Monetary compensation for acute aggravation, coupled with extreme disappointment.


That's what I figured...best of luck with your misguided, fanciful effort. :rolleyes2:


----------



## xcubbies

smmrfld said:


> That's what I figured...best of luck with your misguided, fanciful effort. :rolleyes2:


So, can I count you in, Sommerfield?


----------



## Fading Fast

Hi, pressed for time, but wanted to update:

Second order (put in on 12/22) arrived late yesterday exactly as ordered.


----------



## Palmer_Woodrow

WillBarrett said:


> Bless your heart.


Brilliant! Could not have put it better myself ROFLOL


----------



## Palmer_Woodrow

gamma68 said:


> I'll be surprised if Bills actually relaunches in February. That's only a month from now.
> 
> "Fresh goods, your old favorites, fewer errors." Well, I didn't receive an old favorite from a Dec. 4 order, and how much fresher and better can Bills really be in four scant weeks? Is a whole new warehouse of Chinese-made khakis ready for shipment?


It will be very interesting to see what is next for Bill's. Not sure how many of you have ever been to the MRKET NY, but I've been and Bill's has always been a regular participant and in recent years had a very large presence with an end display location several times the size of many of the vendors.

They were there in August 2015 as always. At that show they were selling their Spring 2016 line to retailers. In many cases the wholesalers have mock-up/sample merchandise to show the retailers and base their production on these pre-orders for the coming season. (January show is for Fall merchandise and August show is for Spring merchandise.) This means they have at least theoretically placed orders with their manufacturers which have been executed, unless they were cancelled this past Fall. I have no information that this occurred. This means you should probably expect a typical Bill's inventory range this Spring, these good appearing in February.

But, Bill's is not listed among the brands at the January 2016 MRKET NY. This means there will definitely be something different in store for the Fall 2016, if it will even exist.

Who will fill the gap? Keep an eye on that old brand Duck Head, which is making a new go of the men's clothing market, showing up for the first time at the August 2015 MRKET NY, which means they will start showing up in the men's retail market shortly. Duck Head will again be at the MRKET NY this month.


----------



## jet551

Thought I would mention that I received a refund on a return today. I sent the shoes back after receiving them in early December (they were too small). It took them about 2-3 weeks to process the return/refund. Given all of the discussion I was worried I wouldn't get my money back but I'm happy to report that I did.


----------



## FLMike

It sounds to me like, all things considered, they've managed this process pretty well. When I say "all things considered", I mean the variables we know, as well as the ones we think we know, and then others that we're not even aware of. When an apparel company like Bill's gets into an over-levered, over-inventoried cash crunch, there are two main things they can do to raise much-needed cash. They can cut fixed expenses (overhead), and they can sell off the excess inventories. They have apparently set about doing both very aggressively. The result is a skeleton fulfillment and customer service staff, coupled with an aggressive liquidation sale. An unavoidable consequence is a little bit of a bumpy experience for the retail customers placing online orders.

So far, I haven't heard of anyone getting their money taken with no goods delivered in exchange. At worst, there's been some unfilled and delayed orders, and inconsistent (or nonexistent) communication. Like I said, not unexpected considering the circumstances. And I think most here were at least tangentially aware of the circumstances when they placed their orders. Is it fair for them to be frustrated? I'm not sure. I mean, sure, it's their prerogative to be frustrated if they want to be, or if it makes them feel better, but it's not going to change anything. And, nobody (to my knowledge) has suffered any loss or harm from Bills, so I would just say, in this case, don't sweat the small stuff!


----------



## Patrick R

^ x2
It will be interesting to see how they proceed. Let's face it, they'll only sell so many pairs of $150 khakis and the inexpensive import market is saturated.


----------



## Fading Fast

Patrick R said:


> ^ x2
> It will be interesting to see how they proceed. Let's face it, they'll only sell so many pairs of $150 khakis and the inexpensive import market is saturated.


After having just paid +/- $50 for Bill's pants that are full price +/-$200 (I'm rounding because I bought several different models at various price points, but $200 for $50 is a good average), I would find it very hard to pay full price for two reasons (1) psychologically, it is very hard to pay that much for something you got at 75% off and (2) to be honest, while these pants are nice, they are not two or three times the quality that my equivalent J.Crew khakis are (and J.Crew has put out some impressive pants under its "Wallace and Barnes" brand that are nearly equivalent to Bills quality for half the price or less [on one of J.Crew's regularly occurring sales]).


----------



## adept

I'm not informed on these scenarios, but can anyone think of examples where everything turned out fine as far as continuing brand, quality and price?


----------



## Patrick R

adept said:


> I'm not informed on these scenarios, but can anyone think of examples where everything turned out fine as far as continuing brand, quality and price?


I don't know about fine. Any of the brands that went under and have been resurrected successfully that I can think of are much different now than then. (i.e. Ambercrombie and Finch)


----------



## Orgetorix

Fading Fast said:


> After having just paid +/- $50 for Bill's pants that are full price +/-$200 (I'm rounding because I bought several different models at various price points, but $200 for $50 is a good average), I would find it very hard to pay full price for two reasons (1) psychologically, it is very hard to pay that much for something you got at 75% off and (2) to be honest, while these pants are nice, they are not two or three times the quality that my equivalent J.Crew khakis are (and J.Crew has put out some impressive pants under its "Wallace and Barnes" brand that are nearly equivalent to Bills quality for half the price or less [on one of J.Crew's regularly occurring sales]).


I've never owned a pair of Bill's, mainly because I have _always_ thought $150-200 was an insanely ridiculous price to pay for khakis.


----------



## Patrick R

And it is! I have many pair at this point but have only paid MSRP once. As for quality, I still have the first pair, 12 + years old and I've been hard on them. Treated them like jeans from day one. Yes, I should toss them but just love them.


----------



## FLMike

Orgetorix said:


> I've never owned a pair of Bill's, mainly because I have _always_ thought $150-200 was an insanely ridiculous price to pay for khakis.


Come on, Org. That's not a good enough reason for an internet-literate person with an interest in clothes not to own any Bills, ever. I've owned several pairs over the years and probably paid an average price of $35 (new) for them....the latest batch of 4 pair being acquired for $25 each from some off-pricer up in Maine, ordered ny telephone. Point being, for any half-way resourceful person, Bills have always been pretty readilly accessible from a variety of sources for a substantial discount to MSRP.

I mean, you even run a blog dedicated to showing folks how to acquire quality clothes at well-below-retail prices. Since when did MSRP ever factor into your buying decision!? Sorry to bust on you, but there is a bit of irony to your post.


----------



## meanoldmanning

Internet is definitely your friend. With their occasional seasonal sales, the usual supply closeouts on STP and eBay and the recent liquidation I also have never paid full pop for any of the dozen or so trousers and shorts I own from them.


----------



## gamma68

Orgetorix said:


> I've never owned a pair of Bill's, mainly because I have _always_ thought $150-200 was an insanely ridiculous price to pay for khakis.


Takes a lot of gumption to complain about the full retail price when you just had a chance to buy them ridiculously cheap.


----------



## jimbo365

*BK Shirts on STP*

Hi,

Has anyone seen the BK shirts that are made in Bangladesh on STP?
This may give some insight on the future of the company.

BTW, I am new here.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Orgetorix

FLCracka said:


> Come on, Org. That's not a good enough reason for an internet-literate person with an interest in clothes not to own any Bills, ever. I've owned several pairs over the years and probably paid an average price of $35 (new) for them....the latest batch of 4 pair being acquired for $25 each from some off-pricer up in Maine, ordered ny telephone. Point being, for any half-way resourceful person, Bills have always been pretty readilly accessible from a variety of sources for a substantial discount to MSRP.
> 
> I mean, you even run a blog dedicated to showing folks how to acquire quality clothes at well-below-retail prices. Since when did MSRP ever factor into your buying decision!? Sorry to bust on you, but there is a bit of irony to your post.


True enough, but the allure of Bill's has never been enough to make me bother finding them at bargain prices. I'd only be interested in the M3 cut, and that one's less common enough to make bargain pairs harder to come by.



gamma68 said:


> Takes a lot of gumption to complain about the full retail price when you just had a chance to buy them ridiculously cheap.


Who's complaining? I'm ridiculing the retail price and those who pay it, not complaining. And the recent sale, while significant, still wasn't enough to put them in "ridiculously cheap" range as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## gamma68

Orgetorix said:


> Who's complaining? I'm ridiculing the retail price and those who pay it, not complaining. And the recent sale, while significant, still wasn't enough to put them in "ridiculously cheap" range as far as I'm concerned.


OK, so substitute "ridicule" for "complain." Did you want Bills to just give their product away?

In any event, you may not have received your order anyway. So this discussion is moot.


----------



## godan

Orgetorix said:


> True enough, but the allure of Bill's has never been enough to make me bother finding them at bargain prices. I'd only be interested in the M3 cut, and that one's less common enough to make bargain pairs harder to come by.


All true for me. Once I learned how well the M3 cut fit me, I still might not have pursued a lifetime supply were it not for my convenient access to the STP mothership, which I can easily visit several times a month. Over a few years, I would just stop and buy whatever M3's were on hand - always at a serious discount. I claim no prescience, merely good fortune now that Bills seems to have melted.


----------



## CSG

I've been lucky with Costco's Kirkland chinos for $20 a pair. Wonderful pants if they have your size.


----------



## Slim Jim

I've heard that "Bills" is moving a little bit north and expect a spring line.
Also they will be concentrating on just Khakis.
We will see.


----------



## Boatshoo

First things first, they're closing doors on Reading location as of Jan. 15. I believe new owners are located in CT, so moving "north" would seem to be true. As far as I've heard, all employees, with maybe the exception of Bill himself, will have their last day on the 15th. Also, for any questions about the process, I recommend a thorough reading of what Article 9 entails. That disclaimer at the bottom of the BK website basically says that the new company bought the name, but none of the liability. Which means they didn't pay contractors, some employees, banks, credit cards, etc. Finally, and this likely deserves its only board, but I have it on high authority that Hiltl is planning a cotton pant in 4 colors for Spring and at least 3 different cotton fabrics for Fall, all to fill the void left by Bills Khakis. Similar price points and similar fits. I believe that most of the same stores that used to carry Bills will now be buying Hiltl as they have taken some of the independent sales reps from Bills old crew as well.


----------



## FLMike

Boatshoo said:


> First things first, they're closing doors on Reading location as of Jan. 15. I believe new owners are located in CT, so moving "north" would seem to be true. As far as I've heard, all employees, with maybe the exception of Bill himself, will have their last day on the 15th. Also, for any questions about the process, I recommend a thorough reading of what Article 9 entails. That disclaimer at the bottom of the BK website basically says that the new company bought the name, but none of the liability. Which means they didn't pay contractors, some employees, banks, credit cards, etc. Finally, and this likely deserves its only board, but I have it on high authority that Hiltl is planning a cotton pant in 4 colors for Spring and at least 3 different cotton fabrics for Fall, all to fill the void left by Bills Khakis. Similar price points and similar fits. I believe that most of the same stores that used to carry Bills will now be buying Hiltl as they have taken some of the independent sales reps from Bills old crew as well.


That's good info, though I would argue that other pants makers -- Peter Millar, as a prime example -- have already been expanding assortments and taking rack space and sales share from Bills in the last couple of years. Granted, these brands are not USA made, but that really doesn't matter for the average menswear buyer.


----------



## Fading Fast

I Googled them, so now I know, but did everyone else just know who "Hiltl" was? It wouldn't be the first time I was clueless.


----------



## L-feld

I'm familiar with Hiltl and I can't imagine their khakis being a replacement for Bills. Same with Peter Millar. The classic fit produced by both companies is significantly lower in rise than the M2, let alone the M1. Also, Peter Millar's khakis don't have alterable crotches, which I thought was a big selling point. 

I suppose they both have cuts that might be adequate replacements for the M4 or M3, but that market is saturated anyway.

At least in Baltimore, the stores that stock Bills tend to cater to an older clientele and they sell the M1 and M2, not the M3 or M4. People I know who wear slimmer cuts with lower rises seem more drawn to cheaper khakis, like those from J. Crew.

I could see Berle being a substitute, since they make a long rise version and they have alterable crotches, although their choice of casual fabrics is much more limited than Bills was.


----------



## Slim Jim

What is the benefit of having an alterable crotch? Is it just to adjust the rise?


----------



## CornoUltimo

FWIW I called Bills today and received a message that they are processing orders but are approx 15 days behind. I didn't wait to speak with an actual human, as that would have probably taken 20+ minutes on hold. If no update is made in the next few days then I will probably take the time.


----------



## JLibourel

If another maker can duplicate or approximate the high rise and generous cut of the M1, I'll be content. I suspect there are any number of low-rise, slim cut khakis out there. In any event, I probably have enough Bill's M1 khakis to last me for however few years I have remaining.


----------



## Charles Dana

Slim Jim said:


> What is the benefit of having an alterable crotch? Is it just to adjust the rise?


An alterable crotch has nothing to do with the trouser's rise. An alterable crotch makes it possible for a tailor to expand or tighten the crotch, seat, and waistband of a pair of trousers. I don't see the term "alterable crotch" that often; usually, the term I see is "split-back alterable waistband."

It's possible to lower a trouser's rise. Such an alteration, which is time-consuming and expensive, is not related to the crotch seam.


----------



## Peak and Pine

Slim Jim said:


> What is the benefit of having an alterable crotch? Is it just to adjust the rise?





Charles Dana said:


> An alterable crotch has nothing to do with the trouser's rise.


Nix, nix, Charles. Altering the crotch, i. e., expanding it, is the _only _way to alter rise.

In instances where there is little or no extra fabric at the crotch, compatible fabric can be taken from excess at the cuff. In instances where even that's not possible, any fabric can be used. The crotch wedge can usually only be seen when sitting, and at that with legs open, which you don't wanna be doing when in the presence of people like me save when I'm sleeping because then I can't see your crotch especially in the summer when I'm in a hammock and the neighbor kids sneak up and stick stuff in my ears but I'm getting lost here so skip to below the dash marks.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Most pants that I buy do not have the proper rise. It's the Get Off My Lawn rise that I'm looking for. So more than half of my pants have been hand-altered at the crotch. By me. Learning that skill takes about five minutes. Implementing it, a couple of hours.


----------



## dxrham

I received my order from 12/29 yesterday. The only item remaining in stock and shipped was a pair of size 37 vintage twill M2 flat front in British khaki. The items on my order that are unavailable were size 36 M1 flat fronts in khaki and British khaki.


----------



## Charles Dana

Peak and Pine said:


> Nix, nix, Charles. Altering the crotch, i. e., expanding it, is the _only _way to alter rise.
> 
> Most pants that I buy do not have the proper rise. It's the Get Off My Lawn rise that I'm looking for. So more than half of my pants have been hand-altered at the crotch. By me. Learning that skill takes about five minutes. Implementing it, a couple of hours.


Ah, yes--the infamous crotch wedges. Now it comes back to me: a few years ago, you posted drawings of how to deploy those funny little triangles. I had succeeded in forgetting all about them--until now. Wish me luck as I once again attempt to suppress all thoughts of them.

I'm on board with you as far as the Get Off My Lawn rise is concerned. That's the only way to go.


----------



## Old Road Dog

It's going to be difficult for them to process many more orders if the staff only have jobs until January 15. Maybe they will work for nothing out of sheer dedication...or not. Fifteen days behind and only five more days in business. Uh-uh.


----------



## Patrick R

My final order 12/29 processed today. Three vintage twill, hemmed and shipped for $115.


----------



## Boatshoo

The M1 is dead, really doubtful any other brand will bring that back any time soon. However, I understand that Hiltl is trying to mimick the older M2 model. As many are aware, the M2 fit changed over the years with Bills Khakis, and what they've had the last few years was quite different from the "original" M2. What I'd really like to see is the original khaki done again. Unwashed Khaki Twill. For BK, the code was M1/M2-KT I believe. Great stuff...


----------



## Patrick R

@boatshoo was the fabric US made then? What about the re-pro brands like Rickson?


----------



## ROI

FLCracka said:


> That's good info, though I would argue that other pants makers -- Peter Millar, as a prime example -- have already been expanding assortments and taking rack space and sales share from Bills in the last couple of years. Granted, these brands are not USA made, but that really doesn't matter for the average menswear buyer.


I've been hoping that the people who contribute to this thread aren't the average menswear buyer.


----------



## Old Road Dog

Tell me about this company:


----------



## oxford cloth button down

Old Road Dog said:


> Tell me about this company:


I have heard goof things. Primarily from Zach at Newton Street Vintage.


----------



## FLMike

Fading Fast said:


> I Googled them, so now I know, but did everyone else just know who "Hiltl" was? It wouldn't be the first time I was clueless.


I'm actually wearing a pair of rust colored Hiltl cords today!


----------



## Fading Fast

FLCracka said:


> I'm actually wearing a pair of rust colored Hiltl cords today!


As always, I'm last to the party. I had never heard of that name before it was mentioned in this thread.


----------



## L-feld

Charles Dana said:


> An alterable crotch has nothing to do with the trouser's rise. An alterable crotch makes it possible for a tailor to expand or tighten the crotch, seat, and waistband of a pair of trousers. I don't see the term "alterable crotch" that often; usually, the term I see is "split-back alterable waistband."
> 
> It's possible to lower a trouser's rise. Such an alteration, which is time-consuming and expensive, is not related to the crotch seam.


An alterable crotch is different than a split back waistband. The split back waistband is getting more common and, in fact, Peter Millar chinos do have this.

The alterable crotch allows for adjustments to rise and thighs. It allows the tailor to make small adjustments to these areas, which are as important to the fit of the trouser as the seat and waist. If the inner crotch seam is finished, the tailor cannot let out the crotch or thighs and taking them in becomes significantly more difficult and requires much more cutting, or requires the tailor to fashion a gusset out of the leftover hem fabric.

Peter Millar chinos definitely do not have this feature, despite having a split waistband.


----------



## JLAnderson

Disruptor Capital and Pete Snyder, a former GOP candidate for lt. governor in Virginia, invested in Bills Khakis back in 2013. I wonder how much of a "get a return NOW" attitude he brought to the boardroom.

https://disruptor.com/disruptor-announces-major-investment-in-bills-khakis-va-mfg-jobs/


----------



## Charles Dana

L-feld, thanks for the clarification. Here's to alterable seams--whether down there, back there, or up there. I don't like unalterable seams. Especially in those places where just a slight alteration would mean the difference between feeling really great and feeling not quite comfortable. I'm still undecided on crotch triangles, however.


----------



## gsgolf54

Does anyone have any experience with these from Press?

https://www.jpressonline.com/cotton...ers-special-editon-colabelling-with-hertling/

Just wondering what their "slim fit" is and if there is an alterable waistband.


----------



## Old Road Dog

A pieced crotch alteration is a make-shift affair that really means the pant (or suit) wasn't meant for you.


----------



## DownSouth

Great alternative is All American Khakis manufactured in Thomson GA. Also sold thru Beau Ties LTD. For my money these are every bit equal to Bill's and much more reasonably priced.
I said a year ago that Bill was getting carried away with his success. Guess it caught up with him.


----------



## JLibourel

Has anyone here gotten their Vintage Twills from the 75% off offer on December 29? If the pair I ordered doesn't come by Friday, I have a strong suspicion they won't come at all.

I have a pair of the Beau Ties "Kramer Twill" khakis. They're okay, but I don't like them nearly as much a Bill's, for reasons I can't altogether articulate. Unfortunately, my Beau Ties khakis sustained minor damage soon after I got, and they have been relegated to knock-about use.


----------



## Patrick R

I received mine today. The only way I knew they were coming was my bank account. They must have flushed all email addresses with the web site.


----------



## CornoUltimo

My vintage twills from 12/29 came today!


----------



## gamma68

If anyone is Jonesing for poplin trousers from the late Bills Khakis, the Andover Shop has them on sale at 50% off:

https://theandovershop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_5&products_id=34


----------



## JLibourel

Patrick R said:


> I received mine today. The only way I knew they were coming was my bank account. They must have flushed all email addresses with the web site.


Hmmm, I wonder if I made a mistake by ordering the bottoms hemmed to length. Well, if I don't get them, life will go on.


----------



## Patrick R

Mine were hemmed. Earlier on I was wondering if that was having an effect. I guess you needed to order early, they couldn't have had many left by that time.


----------



## Boatshoo

Patrick R said:


> @boatshoo was the fabric US made then? What about the re-pro brands like Rickson?


Sure was. The fabric for Original Twill was the longest holdout to be made in America, I believe. Obviously the first time they brought out Cramerton Twill, it was also made in the US. However, not entirely sure it was still made in the US the 2nd (and subsequent times.)


----------



## Patrick R

Thanks. That's what I thought. The Cramerton are the only ones that were still US made cloth.


----------



## Fading Fast

Patrick R said:


> Thanks. That's what I thought. The Cramerton are the only ones that were still US made cloth.


I have no idea if the cloth is US made or not, but I recently got two pairs of the Cramertons on the sale and they are incredible: heavy, well made, but not rigid. They could be well pressed if that's the direction you want to go, but I wash and dry mine for a casual look that is perfect. I can't say enough about how much I am enjoying these.


----------



## orange fury

Patrick R said:


> I received mine today. The only way I knew they were coming was my bank account. They must have flushed all email addresses with the web site.


They never emailed me about my sweater-no order confirmation or shipping confirmation. UPS emailing me about the expected arrival date was the first notice I had.

I will say though, I am absolutely in love with my Bills Shetland- the compliments from random strangers on the color have been consistent. I wish I had more of them.


----------



## Old Road Dog

opcorn:
Wife,on phone with female caller: "Who is this? What are you wearing?"
Jake (from State farm): "Uh..khakis."
Wife to husband: "Well, she sounds hideous!"


----------



## Reuben

Well, my order showed up.


----------



## JLibourel

Hallelujah! Got my Vintage Twills as well. They arrived this evening. I had pretty well despaired of getting them.


----------



## Walter Denton

I just got a pair of Bills' corduroys for $37 and change from Sierra Trading Post. One of the few times STP had Bills' in the style and size I wanted. I had so much trouble ordering directly from Bills' when the craziness started that I gave up. Glad to hear that others have had success and are getting deliveries.


----------



## adept

Nordstrom's has some Bill's, low prices, limited sizes available.


----------



## gamma68

adept said:


> Nordstrom's has some Bill's, low prices, limited sizes available.


Is that in-store or online?


----------



## adept

gamma68 said:


> Is that in-store or online?


I saw it online today...


----------



## jimbo365

Has anyone seen the Bills Khakis shirts that appear to be made in Bangladesh. 

These can be found on STP. 

This may give input to the new Bills Khakis.


----------



## Abreslosojos

Well that was quick..."Compare at $26.00"


----------



## CSG

Dang! I wish I was a short fat man.


----------



## FLMike

FLCracka said:


> ......Regarding the overpriced HT jackets....next stop in the excess inventory sell-off process is likely the off-price retailers, who buy the stuff for an even steeper discount than 70%, believe it or not. So be on the lookout at your local Maxx, Marshalls, Ross, etc.


As I said.....


----------



## Abreslosojos

FLCracka said:


> As I said.....


Here, have a cookie sir Nostradamus.


----------



## orange fury

The Marshall's by me is loaded with them, the M2 is too bulky on me though.


----------



## Fading Fast

orange fury said:


> The Marshall's by me is loaded with them, the M2 is too bulky on me though.


It's funny, I bought the M3 (the Cramerton army twills on the fire-sale - some of the nicest chinos I've ever owned and the are only getting softer and better looking with each wash) and, after my J.Crew chinos, initially thought they were a bit loose, but now embrace the feel. For frames like yours and mine, the M3s were a Godsend as they allowed us to buy chinos that actually fit - I swam in the larger styles.


----------



## orange fury

Fading Fast said:


> It's funny, I bought the M3 (the Cramerton army twills on the fire-sale - some of the nicest chinos I've ever owned and the are only getting softer and better looking with each wash) and, after my J.Crew chinos, initially thought they were a bit loose, but now embrace the feel. For frames like yours and mine, the M3s were a Godsend as they allowed us to buy chinos that actually fit - I swam in the larger styles.


Part of me wishes that I had picked up some M3's, but now that the company is defunct (or "uncertain"), I'm kind of glad I didn't get a chance to fall in love with the fit.


----------



## Fading Fast

orange fury said:


> Part of me wishes that I had picked up some M3's, but now that the company is defunct (or "uncertain"), I'm kind of glad I didn't get a chance to fall in love with the fit.


You and I are pretty similar in fit preferences, so I think you would have liked the M3s. That said, while I like Bill's pants, I could not see paying full price for them. I paid $75 for my Cramertons and I think the full retail was $220 (or something close to that). I love these, but they are not worth that to me. I own a pair of Eddie Bauer Cramertons that I paid $50ish for that are not as nice, but are not four-plus times inferior. Full-price Bills seems pretty out there at least from my limited experience.


----------



## AscotWithShortSleeves

PSA: Sierra Trading Post has some Bill's Khakis M2 and M3 cords on sale for $50 in limited size.

If you buy them, you have to buy and post a photo of yourself wearing it.


----------



## orange fury

Crosspost from acquisitions- though my Marshall's has been innundated with Bills recently, I'm still not a fan of the M2 without some significant tailoring. However, I discovered that my exact size in Bills is apparently 31, and at this price, I couldn't pass it up:



I saw a rack of unhemmed M1P's in Nantucket red for $10 apiece- though I don't wear M1's (and can't stand pleats), it was sad seeing Bills reduced to this.


----------



## Fading Fast

^^^ What the heck does "compare at $26" mean, shouldn't it be compare at $150 or something like that? I'm not familiar with Marshalls as there are none near me in the city, but that seems odd, no?


----------



## orange fury

Fading Fast said:


> ^^^ What the heck does "compare at $26" mean, shouldn't it be compare at $150 or something like that? I'm not familiar with Marshalls as there are none near me in the city, but that seems odd, no?


Min not sure how they get that, my RLPL cashmere sweater said "compare at $150+" when it was a $1,000 sweater, so i don't know


----------



## WillBarrett

Those prices though - going to have to hit up TJ Maxx this weekend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pentheos

I'd take an unhemmed M1P for $10 -- waist 40" please.


----------



## Elmer Zilch

I stopped by the Marshall's in Lakeview on my way to the gym today--a few Bill's trousers scattered through the racks, also a short rack of Bill's sportcoats ($39.99) and, weirdly enough, a BB Golden Fleece tuxedo for $99.99 (marked 41R on the hanger; I didn't check the tag).


----------



## JLibourel

I stopped at the nearby Marshalls in Seal Beach a couple of hours ago, but nary a trace of Bills Khakis could I find, alas!


----------



## FLMike

Some Bill's have shown up at my Marshall's, but only in big boy sizes. All $19.99. I will say, an M3 in size 44 seems a little incongruous.


----------



## gamma68

Bills claims it will be back in early February with "fresh goods, old favorites and fewer errors." 

It's now early February. It will be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## Fading Fast

gamma68 said:


> Bills claims it will be back in early February with "fresh goods, old favorites and fewer errors."
> 
> It's now early February. It will be interesting to see what happens.


"fewer errors" wow, two thoughts, pretty sad way to promote your brand ("we'll suck less) and, two, based on this thread alone, they are not setting the bar very high.


----------



## Slim Jim

As long as they have the M2 in poplin and flannel lined twill in regular rotation I'm good.
I hope Bill's reads these threads.


----------



## jimbo365

Slim Jim said:


> As long as they have the M2 in poplin and flannel lined twill in regular rotation I'm good.
> I hope Bill's reads these threads.


Have you seen the Bills Khakis shirts made in Bangladesh on STP?

This may give some insight on the future of the company.


----------



## FLMike

jimbo365 said:


> Have you seen the Bills Khakis shirts made in Bangladesh on STP?
> 
> This may give some insight on the future of the company.


When I read your post, it seemed familiar. Then, I clicked on your profile and saw you've made three posts on the forum so far....and they've all been almost exactly the same post! What's going on, jimbo??

And by the way, their shirts have probably always been made in Bangladesh.


----------



## Tiger

FLCracka said:


> When I read your post, it seemed familiar. Then, I clicked on your profile and saw you've made three posts on the forum so far....and they've all been almost exactly the same post! What's going on, jimbo??


Jimbo is either very emphatic about this point, or he has a stuttering problem!


----------



## Reuben

FLCracka said:


> When I read your post, it seemed familiar. Then, I clicked on your profile and saw you've made three posts on the forum so far....and they've all been almost exactly the same post! What's going on, jimbo??
> 
> And by the way, their shirts have probably always been made in Bangladesh.


Nope, used to be made in America, likely by Gitman Bros based on the labels.


----------



## jimbo365

Tiger said:


> Jimbo is either very emphatic about this point, or he has a stuttering problem!


I asked the question hoping for a response.

These shirts on STP may be a nice indicator of what to expect from the new Bills Khakis.


----------



## Charles Dana

jimbo365 said:


> Have you seen the Bills Khakis shirts made in Bangladesh on STP?
> 
> This may give some insight on the future of the company.


I have seen them on the STP website. That's the only place I've seen them. Perhaps they were the result of an ill-fated decision to make a product line exclusively for the discount market.

All of the Bills Khakis shirts that I have ever purchased--either from STP or directly from Bills--were made in the USA.


----------



## Barrister & Solicitor

I'm from Canada and Bills are likely not a known brand. I'm aware of it as a result of the forum. This past summer, while staying overnight in Burlington, Vermont, I had an opportunity to visit the local Goodwill (this forum is obviously a very bad influence on me).

Lo and behold, I came across 3 or 4 Bills shirts, essentially in "new without tags" condition. I bought one. Nice enough shirt for the price. What I noticed was that the sizing didn't appear to be consistent. I ended up purchasing the shirt that fit me best within the lot.

Interestingly, I couldn't find a "made in Xxxxxx" tag anywhere on any of the shirts.


----------



## richard warren

I ordered some pants in mid-December, supposed to be available 1/1/16. I have not heard a word except my card being charged. I suggest those who intend to buy from them in the future pay some attention to the way they have comported themselves in the recent past.


----------



## JLibourel

^That's curious. A number of men, including me, took advantage of a very deep discount on the Vintage Twills at the end of December and got their trousers around the middle of January. I too ordered a pair of Bullard Twills earlier and did not receive them. However, my card was not charged. I believe other men had similar experiences.


----------



## Steve Smith

FLCracka said:


> And by the way, their shirts have probably always been made in Bangladesh.


Some have been made by Brooks Brothers in their Garland, NC plant.


----------



## Charles Dana

The new Bills Khakis website is up. The products are still made in the USA.

https://www.billskhakis.com


----------



## jimbo365

Charles Dana said:


> The new Bills Khakis website is up. The products are still made in the USA.
> 
> https://www.billskhakis.com


Bills is back!

Hope it stays that way!


----------



## FLMike

Edwin Ek said:


> Cracka, you seem a fan of the company and products. I am too. I hate to keep saying this, but the whole company is being liquidated, not excess inventory or some other less drastic step. There is now only a skeleton staff at hq. I learned other not-happy details, but no need to repeat them.


Mr. Elk, what is the latest word from your source? It appears the company is continuing to operate, with full-priced Spring/Summer goods currently on offer.


----------



## gamma68

Charles Dana said:


> The new Bills Khakis website is up. The products are still made in the USA.
> 
> https://www.billskhakis.com


...and a boatload of items in the "clearance" section. I wonder how many clearance items listed are ones Bills supposedly couldn't fill in December?

Bills's slapdash fire sale and poor customer service during that period leaves me without much consumer confidence.


----------



## tocqueville

All I can say is, Bill's shetlands are fantastic. May the company live long and thrive.


----------



## mfs

I had 3 unfulfilled orders from December 2015. I just emailed customer service and asked if the orders could be fulfilled. No word back yet, but maybe as a good-will gesture the orders can be completed.


----------



## Patrick R

Interesting but I didn't see anything that I'm sure was new. Several things that I'd buy but they have devalued those items to 70% in my mind.


----------



## jimbo365

Patrick R said:


> Interesting but I didn't see anything that I'm sure was new. Several things that I'd buy but they have devalued those items to 70% in my mind.


I was thinking the same thing. Many of those items appeared to be from last year. For instance, I didn't see spring colors for the M2 original twill pants. The pants they had in the original twill were fall colors.

They may be adding new colors as time moves on.

It will be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## Patrick R

Yes it will!
I got three pair of the canvas M2 during the sale. I'm not sure what season they're from. Man I love them, a soft hand but hold a crease for days.


----------



## jimbo365

It looks like they have limited sizing on some items. As though they were transferred as part of the transition. 

Is Bill Thomas part of the new company at all? 

It looks as though nothing new has been produced thus far. Some sizes are limited on some items. I wish there was more of a statement on the future of Bills going forward.


----------



## Fading Fast

Did they have an M4 fit - low rise, skinny, et al. - before or is this new? I thought the M3 was a great not-baggy fit, not too-low rise fit, especially for my skinny frame, but I don't remember them having a true low-rise skinny fit (M4) before. But I am far from a Bill's expert as, prior to the most recent sales blowout, I owned two pairs over many years.


----------



## Orgetorix

They had the M4 already.


----------



## Fading Fast

Orgetorix said:


> They had the M4 already.


It's odd, on the site today, when you click on "pants" the description of the M1, M2 and M3 sizing is there (measurements, etc.), but not the M4. Then, scrolling through the pants, the M4 fit pops up infrequently. It's almost like they haven't fully committed to having that fit.


----------



## jimbo365

Fading Fast said:


> It's odd, on the site today, when you click on "pants" the description of the M1, M2 and M3 sizing is there (measurements, etc.), but not the M4. Then, scrolling through the pants, the M4 fit pops up infrequently. It's almost like they haven't fully committed to having that fit.


Did the M4 gain any traction? It seemed fairly new.

The sizes for their pants are all over the place. They may have some 38's in one color but not another. I don't know if they are restocking at this time.

I didn't see any spring colors in the original twill for instance.


----------



## Fading Fast

jimbo365 said:


> Did the M4 gain any traction? It seemed fairly new.
> 
> The sizes for their pants are all over the place. They may have some 38's in one color but not another. I don't know if they are restocking at this time.
> 
> I didn't see any spring colors in the original twill for instance.


Based on your observations, plus so many items still on large discount, plus the 25% coupon that came in the "announcement" email, it almost feels as if they are still liquidating - or are, at minimum, still happy to sell at deeply discounted prices - but are presenting it as a "re-launch" or something. Odd.


----------



## Patrick R

For sure just still liquidating. The shut down seems to have been to relocate. Until we see some truly new product I'd say their future is in question. They must have had a huge amount of stock. No wonder they ran into trouble.


----------



## smmrfld

This looks nothing like a relaunch...it looks like Phase 2 of dumping their stock.


----------



## Orgetorix

Fading Fast said:


> It's odd, on the site today, when you click on "pants" the description of the M1, M2 and M3 sizing is there (measurements, etc.), but not the M4. Then, scrolling through the pants, the M4 fit pops up infrequently. It's almost like they haven't fully committed to having that fit.





jimbo365 said:


> Did the M4 gain any traction? It seemed fairly new.
> 
> The sizes for their pants are all over the place. They may have some 38's in one color but not another. I don't know if they are restocking at this time.
> 
> I didn't see any spring colors in the original twill for instance.


Yeah, it was fairly new. There weren't many M4 offerings even before the shutdown.


----------



## crispyfresh

Fading Fast said:


> Based on your observations, plus so many items still on large discount, plus the 25% coupon that came in the "announcement" email, it almost feels as if they are still liquidating - or are, at minimum, still happy to sell at deeply discounted prices - but are presenting it as a "re-launch" or something. Odd.


Could be a streamlining of the company. Private equity funds buy and try and increase the value of the assets they purchase. They could be streamlining the company to get rid of over head, then, increase its value for its investors.


----------



## jimbo365

crispyfresh said:


> Could be a streamlining of the company. Private equity funds buy and try and increase the value of the assets they purchase. They could be streamlining the company to get rid of over head, then, increase its value for its investors.


I think if they were trying to dump everything, then the spring goods would be 50% off as well.

The 25% off is only applicable to spring items and not sale items. This is good until Sunday.


----------



## steve12

What would people recommend as a suitable replacement for the Khakis original jean?


----------



## linklaw

I spoke with a customer service rep yesterday to see whether they were going to honor the orders I placed last year. I was told that they were not able to honor the orders because they were out of the items I ordered. The rep confirmed that the recent emails are a continuation of their liquidation efforts. He also indicated that there has been no decision as to whether the new items they will eventually manufacture will be made in the USA. He said Bill has been meeting with the new owners to iron things out.


----------



## jimbo365

linklaw said:


> I spoke with a customer service rep yesterday to see whether they were going to honor the orders I placed last year. I was told that they were not able to honor the orders because they were out of the items I ordered. The rep confirmed that the recent emails are a continuation of their liquidation efforts. He also indicated that there has been no decision as to whether the new items they will eventually manufacture will be made in the USA. He said Bill has been meeting with the new owners to iron things out.


That's what they told me on the phone as well. It appeared that they would be making a decision within the next two weeks based on what was told to me. I think they know they are up against the clock if they are going to move forward with the company.

I really like the poplin pants I got. I find their khakis to be the best.


----------



## jimbo365

steve12 said:


> What would people recommend as a suitable replacement for the Khakis original jean?


 What do you mean by "khaki jean?" I have a pair of Bills blue jeans in 14 oz denim. I really like them. Feel like real jeans to me.


----------



## Anon 18th Cent.

Here is my two-bit analysis. The new owners are money guys- financial types. They are unlikely to have any interest in building and running a clothing company. In their eyes, the old Bills model failed. (Even though their actions probably caused the failure. But they could never admit that to themselves.)

What was the old model? A clothing company hell bent on making khakis and later middle-market clothes in the US. Bill Thomas was the animating force for that. He is out of the picture now, so there is a snowball's chance in hell that the new company will want to make clothes in the US. Too expensive. So that means almost starting from scratch.

Soon enough the new owners will figure out that the Bills Khakis brand is not powerful enough to carry forward a new effort which has lost its founder and his vision.


----------



## Fading Fast

Edwin Ek said:


> Here is my two-bit analysis. The new owners are money guys- financial types. They are unlikely to have any interest in building and running a clothing company. In their eyes, the old Bills model failed. (Even though their actions probably caused the failure. But they could never admit that to themselves.)
> 
> What was the old model? A clothing company hell bent on making khakis and later middle-market clothes in the US. Bill Thomas was the animating force for that. He is out of the picture now, so there is a snowball's chance in hell that the new company will want to make clothes in the US. Too expensive. So that means almost starting from scratch.
> 
> Soon enough the new owners will figure out that the Bills Khakis brand is not powerful enough to carry forward a new effort which has lost its founder and his vision.


I pretty much agree, but am surprised as "financial guys" usually have a better plan - mercenary and unrelated to any romantic or heritage view of the brand's history, traditions, etc. - than just having seemingly helter skelter, deeply discounted, on-and-off sales with mixed customer service and confusing communication.

Growth is their God, and they need sales, revenue, market share, etc., arrows pointing upward - some expansion story - to sell to the next investors, but what they are doing seems detrimental to that.


----------



## gamma68

Bills Khakis is an ongoing disaster. This was supposed to be their "relaunch."


----------



## jimbo365

Fading Fast said:


> I pretty much agree, but am surprised as "financial guys" usually have a better plan - mercenary and unrelated to any romantic or heritage view of the brand's history, traditions, etc. - than just having seemingly helter skelter, deeply discounted, on-and-off sales with mixed customer service and confusing communication.
> 
> Growth is their God, and they need sales, revenue, market share, etc., arrows pointing upward - some expansion story - to sell to the next investors, but what they are doing seems detrimental to that.


It feels like the classic case of "Plan, there is no plan."

This seems to contradict any business model, but that seems to be the plan.

I think people would like to have some sort of decision be made regarding this company.


----------



## eagle2250

^^

Indeed, a rather sad end for an initially promising "made-in-the USA" sartorial initiative! Was it greed or incompetence that brought us to such an inglorious end? :icon_scratch:


----------



## Southwick

Not to show disrespect, but where does one go now for American made Khakis and Chinos?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jimbo365

Southwick said:


> Not to show disrespect, but where does one go now for American made Khakis and Chinos?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Jack Donnelly, Orvis, O'Connell's and J Press sell American made khakis to name a few.

You can also buy All American Khakis online as well.

I hope this helps with your search.


----------



## FLMike

You


Fading Fast said:


> I pretty much agree, but am surprised as "financial guys" usually have a better plan - mercenary and unrelated to any romantic or heritage view of the brand's history, traditions, etc. - than just having seemingly helter skelter, deeply discounted, on-and-off sales with mixed customer service and confusing communication.
> 
> Growth is their God, and they need sales, revenue, market share, etc., arrows pointing upward - some expansion story - to sell to the next investors, but what they are doing seems detrimental to that.


FF, this was not the typical financial sponsor acquisition. This was a distress situation. As you may recall, the sponsor initially made a mezzanine debt investment in Bills. With Bills over-levereaged, over-inventoried, and unable to service its debt, that mezz debt investment was converted to equity ownership. Again, not your typical PE buyout or growth capital infusion. This is a distress situation with the sponsor trying to salvage as much of its investment as possible.


----------



## Old Road Dog

Just for clarity, Orvis khakis are clearly labelled as "Imported" in their advertising. Further, they bear little resemblance to anything resembling what would be considered a "trad" khaki trouser. J Donnelly, Press, and O'Connell's definitely do.


----------



## Charles Dana

Old Road Dog said:


> Just for clarity, Orvis khakis are clearly labelled as "Imported" in their advertising. Further, they bear little resemblance to anything resembling what would be considered a "trad" khaki trouser. J Donnelly, Press, and O'Connell's definitely do.


It's indeed true that most Orvis khakis are imported. However, this season, Orvis is selling a khaki made in Nashville, Tennessee. They call it their "Elk Valley Chinos." 8-oz. cotton twill, flat front, on-seam pockets. Regular price is $98.00, but on sale for $79.00. One color only: khaki.


----------



## Fading Fast

FLCracka said:


> You
> 
> FF, this was not the typical financial sponsor acquisition. This was a distress situation. As you may recall, the sponsor initially made a mezzanine debt investment in Bills. With Bills over-levereaged, over-inventoried, and unable to service its debt, that mezz debt investment was converted to equity ownership. Again, not your typical PE buyout or growth capital infusion. This is a distress situation with the sponsor trying to salvage as much of its investment as possible.


Great point, I did not remember that. Hence, you are correct, an atypical scenario where, as you said, they will probably sell the nails from store's floorboards to maximize their return. Debt guys think differently than equity guys: debt guys think much more in terms of liquidating and either recouping their investment or mitigating their losses; equity guys are more about building and growth.


----------



## FLMike

Fading Fast said:


> Great point, I did not remember that. Hence, you are correct, an atypical scenario where, as you said, they will probably sell the nails from store's floorboards to maximize their return. Debt guys think differently than equity guys: debt guys think much more in terms of liquidating and either recouping their investment or mitigating their losses; equity guys are more about building and growth.


If you look at Source Capital's website, you see they are both debt and equity investors. They list two equity funds and two mezz debt funds. Bills Khakis is listed as part of the first mezz debt fund. It's one thing to approach the investment as an equity play from the start, but yet another to default to an equity play out of necessity, as it appears has happened with Bills.


----------



## jimbo365

FLCracka said:


> If you look at Source Capital's website, you see they are both debt and equity investors. They list two equity funds and two mezz debt funds. Bills Khakis is listed as part of the first mezz debt fund. It's one thing to approach the investment as an equity play from the start, but yet another to default to an equity play out of necessity, as it appears has happened with Bills.


Does Bills have any future?

I guess that is the main question.


----------



## Fading Fast

FLCracka said:


> If you look at Source Capital's website, you see they are both debt and equity investors. They list two equity funds and two mezz debt funds. Bills Khakis is listed as part of the first mezz debt fund. It's one thing to approach the investment as an equity play from the start, but yet another to default to an equity play out of necessity, as it appears has happened with Bills.


Agree completely. It definitely has the feel to me of "get what we can out of it now" and not long-term strategic thinking. That said, and to Jimbo365's question, they will probably sell the name for something when it's done and, then, maybe the brand can be resurrected.

Hey, Duck Head chinos still had some brand value after how many years of not being around? And really, when was that brand ever that popular? But as others have noted above, however Bill's comes back, the original brand is gone and what comes back will be the old name attached to a new business model. To be sure, they will try to capture the old customers with some nod to what the company once was, but it will be, effectively, a new business with an old name.


----------



## jimbo365

Fading Fast said:


> Agree completely. It definitely has the feel to me of "get what we can out of it now" and not long-term strategic thinking. That said, and to Jimbo365's question, they will probably sell the name for something when it's done and, then, maybe the brand can be resurrected.
> 
> Hey, Duck Head chinos still had some brand value after how many years of not being around? And really, when was that brand ever that popular? But as others have noted above, however Bill's comes back, the original brand is gone and what comes back will be the old name attached to a new business model. To be sure, they will try to capture the old customers with some nod to what the company once was, but it will be, effectively, a new business with an old name.


Here is a long term problem. Bills was built by small mom and pop clothing stores. They were built by stores that sold a few good items instead of stores that sell garbage items.

I spoke with a gentleman about this long before Bills went into bankruptcy and he echoed that the small places help build the brand. He said Bills had a change in attitude recently. He said they began to email way too much. This was probably due to their getting in business with Source Capital.

If Bills chooses to stick around, but offshore their production, then that will hurt the company. I think most people liked Bills for the quality and the domestic component.

Bills was never that big of a company. I believe they had revenues around 16 million. I assume Ralph Lauren is in the billions per year.


----------



## Old Road Dog

Thanks for the Orvis update, Charles. That's a decent price, too.


----------



## FLMike

jimbo365 said:


> Here is a long term problem. Bills was built by small mom and pop clothing stores. They were built by stores that sold a few good items instead of stores that sell garbage items.
> 
> I spoke with a gentleman about this long before Bills went into bankruptcy and he echoed that the small places help build the brand. He said Bills had a change in attitude recently. He said they began to email way too much. This was probably due to their getting in business with Source Capital.
> 
> If Bills chooses to stick around, but offshore their production, then that will hurt the company. I think most people liked Bills for the quality and the domestic component.
> 
> Bills was never that big of a company. I believe they had revenues around 16 million. I assume Ralph Lauren is in the billions per year.


When did Bills go into bankruptcy?

The biggest problem the mom and pops have had selling Bills Khakis is the same problem they are currently having with Allen Edmonds. Their biggest competitor is BK (and AE) themselves, as these companies have aggressively built up and promoted their online sales channel, and this retail business is taking market share from their wholesale customers.


----------



## Southwick

Thanks for the info, Jimbo365!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jimbo365

FLCracka said:


> When did Bills go into bankruptcy?
> 
> The biggest problem the mom and pops have had selling Bills Khakis is the same problem they are currently having with Allen Edmonds. Their biggest competitor is BK (and AE) themselves, as these companies have aggressively built up and promoted their online sales channel, and this retail business is taking market share from their wholesale customers.


I get so many emails from AE. I can get a 300 dollar pair of AE for about 150 now. Bills was in that group too in terms of emails.

I prefer American made things. For instance Bills made a great supima polo for about 90 bucks with the 10 percent discount.

RL are comparable in price and they are made in Vietnam.


----------



## Old Road Dog

Sorry to perhaps go over old ground with this, but did BK produce their own goods or were they made by a contractor?

$16 million is a healthy volume. The adding of sportswear that didn't sell was a stumbling block, but at the margins generated by $145. retail and even $72. wholesale, they should have been able to make a go of it. 

Do you think that demand "slackened" (bad pun) to a point where they became a victim of their overhead? Or was it bled to death by owners?


----------



## FLMike

Old Road Dog said:


> Sorry to perhaps go over old ground with this, but did BK produce their own goods or were they made by a contractor?


Contractor. BK only employed about 30 folks. Their pants were (are?) cut and sewn by Lebanon Apparel Corp in Virginia.



Old Road Dog said:


> Do you think that demand "slackened" (bad pun) to a point where they became a victim of their overhead? Or was it bled to death by owners?


Likely a combination of factors. I think they diversified into product categories outside of their niche (well-constructed American-made khakis) that didn't experince the same consumer demand. Then, most recently, they over-produced and were left with too much debt and all their working capital tied up in bloated, slow-moving inventory and very little operating flexibility. Hence, the position they (and their new owners) find themselves in now.


----------



## steve12

jimbo365 said:


> What do you mean by "khaki jean?" I have a pair of Bills blue jeans in 14 oz denim. I really like them. Feel like real jeans to me.


Yes, sorry for the confusion. I meant the Bills blue jeans in 14 oz denim. Any good replacements?


----------



## jimbo365

steve12 said:


> Yes, sorry for the confusion. I meant the Bills blue jeans in 14 oz denim. Any good replacements?


I'm not a big jeans fan.

BB makes some USA made jeans. Does All American Clothing make good jeans? That may be a place to start if you are looking for domestic. I had a pair of Todd Shelton jeans that were great.

Sorry I can't be of more help in terms of jeans.


----------



## steve12

jimbo365 said:


> I'm not a big jeans fan.
> 
> BB makes some USA made jeans. Does All American Clothing make good jeans? That may be a place to start if you are looking for domestic. I had a pair of Todd Shelton jeans that were great.
> 
> Sorry I can't be of more help in terms of jeans.


Thank you. Shelton looks promising.


----------



## bluiewest1

A friend in Reading said that all of the employees have been let go, and the remaining inventory shipped to Connecticut for liquidation


----------



## Fading Fast

bluiewest1 said:


> A friend in Reading said that all of the employees have been let go, and the remaining inventory shipped to Connecticut for liquidation


Just got an "80% off / last chance / winter gear" email. It doesn't look good.


----------



## steve12

Fading Fast said:


> Just got an "80% off / last chance / winter gear" email. It doesn't look good.


That is discouraging. Are people still having difficulties getting deliveries?


----------



## gamma68

Fading Fast said:


> Just got an "80% off / last chance / winter gear" email. It doesn't look good.


And the website appears to be screwed up. Items are displayed as "available" until you attempt to place one in your shopping cart. You'd think if an item were sold out, someone would update the website to reflect this.

I like the look of one of the Harris Tweeds that appears to still be available. But the BK website has no sizing guidelines for jackets, and I'm not really sure I want to risk a couple hundred bucks for a darted jacket that I can't return if the fit is off.

Bills Khakis is an ongoing disaster.


----------



## Elmer Zilch

I picked through the rubble last week and found that you could add an item to your cart only if the supposedly available size wasn't grayed-out. I managed to order a couple sweaters. So far my card hasn't been charged and the order is still listed as "processing." I'm not optimistic.


----------



## WillBarrett

jimbo365 said:


> I get so many emails from AE. I can get a 300 dollar pair of AE for about 150 now. Bills was in that group too in terms of emails.
> 
> I prefer American made things. For instance Bills made a great supima polo for about 90 bucks with the 10 percent discount.
> 
> RL are comparable in price and they are made in Vietnam.


Off topic, but I believe MSRP on a PRL polo is about $75. These are regularly discounted and can be found for less than $40 on a regular basis after the season. A far cry from $90.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## niv

steve12 said:


> That is discouraging. Are people still having difficulties getting deliveries?


I ordered a sweater a few days ago on one of the 80% sales and it arrived today.


----------



## orange fury

WillBarrett said:


> Off topic, but I believe MSRP on a PRL polo is about $75. These are regularly discounted and can be found for less than $40 on a regular basis after the season. A far cry from $90.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was actually going to make this exact same comment, as almost all my polos are PRL "MSRP $75, purchased for $35". Heck, I even have two Purple Label polos purchased for $45/apiece.

I would love to buy more Shetlands from Bills, but I got lucky with my gamble in December paying off. Buying at Bills right now is like going to a casino imho.


----------



## eagle2250

^^(offered in response to niv's post #443 and OF's post # 444)Ironically, a quote from Charles Dickens best describes the retail phenomena you describe;

"It was the best of times and the worst of times!" Kudos on your good fortune, my friend, for many will not be so lucky. :thumbs-up:


----------



## Robertson

FYI I was a little disappointed in the Bill's OCBD. The neck fits me well, and it has a good collar, but otherwise the medium is bigger than any other medium I've owned, and comes with plastic buttons which seems odd for the MSRP.

It's not surprising these didn't sell too well at the asking price. For $30 though it's not a bad deal!


----------



## niv

orange fury said:


> I would love to buy more Shetlands from Bills, but I got lucky with my gamble in December paying off. Buying at Bills right now is like going to a casino imho.


I'm not so sure. They've filled all of my orders, except one, and I've been ordering all through the huge sales. For the order they didn't fulfill, they didn't charge my credit card. With the limited recourse you have if using credit cards (I think it's $50) I don't see a downside.


----------



## JLibourel

I visited a retailer of Bill's--a famous store in a city far from where I dwell. He seemed to be of the opinion that Bill's was, for practical purposes, dead and the revived Bill's is really nothing more than a continuation of the death throes of the old. I know many men here have voiced similar opinions.


----------



## Charles Dana

JLibourel said:


> I visited a retailer of Bill's....He seemed to be of the opinion that Bill's was, for practical purposes, dead and the revived Bill's is really nothing more than a continuation of the death throes of the old.


I have just received an e-mail from Bills Khakis, in the name of Bill Thomas, stating that Bills Khakis was in the process of "restart[ing] operations in expanded facilities."

To be continued....


----------



## smmrfld

Charles Dana said:


> I have just received an e-mail from Bills Khakis, in the name of Bill Thomas, stating that Bills Khakis was in the process of "restart[ing] operations in expanded facilities."
> 
> To be continued....


No doubt. Many Chinese factories are massive.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

niv said:


> I'm not so sure. They've filled all of my orders, except one, and I've been ordering all through the huge sales. For the order they didn't fulfill, they didn't charge my credit card. With the limited recourse you have if using credit cards (I think it's $50) I don't see a downside.


Fair enough. There's no sign of the corduroys I ordered at the end of November...but those were presumably American-made.


----------



## Charles Dana

niv said:


> For the order [Bill's] didn't fulfill, they didn't charge my credit card. With the limited recourse you have if using credit cards (I think it's $50) I don't see a downside.


I think you mean one has limited *liability *of $50.00 rather than limited "recourse."

If your credit card is lost or stolen and then the card itself is fraudulently used in person at a point of sale, the real cardholder's liability is limited to $50.00. Credit card issuers typically waive all fraudulent charges, however.

If your credit card number is fraudulently used over the phone or Internet, the customer's liability is zero.

Of course, you need to promptly notify your credit card issuer of any disputed charges.

And if you order merchandise and charge the transaction to your credit card account but then do not receive your order, the entire charge--even if it is under $50.00--can be charged back to the merchant after you promptly dispute the charge.


----------



## jimbo365

Charles Dana said:


> I have just received an e-mail from Bills Khakis, in the name of Bill Thomas, stating that Bills Khakis was in the process of "restart[ing] operations in expanded facilities."
> 
> To be continued....


That's interesting. Does anyone else have any input on this?


----------



## Anon 18th Cent.

One possible outcome to this:

The new owners are indeed serious about reforming the company, and Bill Thomas wants to be or is lured in to being a part of it. Perhaps it happens bit by bit, from him being just an advisor to a full-fledged role. Depends on him, the new owners, and how the liquidation-restructuring was handled. There could easily be hard feelings which prevent that. But I have heard that he stuck around until the end. That could be only because it was his baby and his name on the door, or maybe there is some hope for the future.

What speaks against that future though is that the Reading connection has been severed. On the other hand, the guy has to earn a living. And maybe the pe clowns take some responsibility for their failed strategy.


----------



## Dmontez

I had put things in my shopping bag a lot lately from bills but never pulled the trigger because of all of the people saying they never received anything. Yesterday I
ordered a pair of red seersucker shorts because they were only $16.00. I got the shipping confirmation today, now I wish I would have pulled the trigger on stuff earlier.


----------



## jimbo365

Edwin Ek said:


> One possible outcome to this:
> 
> The new owners are indeed serious about reforming the company, and Bill Thomas wants to be or is lured in to being a part of it. Perhaps it happens bit by bit, from him being just an advisor to a full-fledged role. Depends on him, the new owners, and how the liquidation-restructuring was handled. There could easily be hard feelings which prevent that. But I have heard that he stuck around until the end. That could be only because it was his baby and his name on the door, or maybe there is some hope for the future.
> 
> What speaks against that future though is that the Reading connection has been severed. On the other hand, the guy has to earn a living. And maybe the pe clowns take some responsibility for their failed strategy.


You make some good points. I think the key will be a commitment to made in America. If that is lost, then the company will have a hard time. I think it was a big selling point for the brand.


----------



## Charles Dana

If, despite the recent drama surrounding Bills Khakis, you still have any interest in that company's products, you have nothing to lose by registering your e-mail address on Bills' current website. Bills continues to offer periodic sales, but you won't know unless you're on the mailing list: 50% off all pants for a couple of days; a week or so later, 50% off all shirts for two days; later on, 50% off everything for a day or so. That's what I've seen in recent weeks. (Not as good as getting 80% off like last December, but such a discount cannot reasonably be expected every time there's a sale.)

For awhile I'd been wanting to buy a few more pairs of Bills poplins, because I like the two pairs that I already have quite a bit. However, I procrastinated due to the $135.00 price tag. Around 10 days ago, Bills put all poplins on sale at half off. Further, Bills sent me an electronic gift card of $50.00 to help make amends for the fact that a couple of clearance items I had previously ordered were not in stock even though the website indicated that they were. Stacking the gift card on top of the sale, I was able to get three pairs of poplin trousers for just under $51.00 per pair. They arrived today--made in the USA, and exactly like my older poplins.

It can't hurt to get on Bills' mailing list. The company is still around and has non-clearance inventory that it is shipping promptly, occasionally at half-off the full price. Some items are in limited supply, but not as limited as late last year.

P.S. I have no financial relationship with Bills Khakis whatsoever. This is just a head's up for those who may be interested.


----------



## gamma68

As recently as a couple weeks ago, Bills had an 80% off sale.

It's clear that BK is still trying to liquidate old inventory. A new sale occurs almost every day. I don't think anything on its website is "new."

The fact that fire sales continue, even after the supposed "relaunch," tells you something about the brand.


----------



## RobertM

Likewise, I have no financial relationship with O'Connell's, but I'd suggest that their trousers, in every respect, are at least as good as Bill's if not far better. There's no drama in Buffalo either, i.e., prompt and courteous service, reliable shipping and delivery. You won't come by them cheaply--sales are rare and the greatest discounted price I've seen was around $100--but it's hard to put a price tag on the much-in-demand reliability factor these days.


----------



## Charles Dana

RobertM said:


> Likewise, I have no financial relationship with O'Connell's, but I'd suggest that their trousers, in every respect, are at least as good as Bill's if not far better. There's no drama in Buffalo either, i.e., prompt and courteous service, reliable shipping and delivery. You won't come by them cheaply--sales are rare and the greatest discounted price I've seen was around $100--but it's hard to put a price tag on the much-in-demand reliability factor these days.


I like O'Connell's trousers. Very much. I just wish they would replenish their stock more often. So often, I find that O'Connell's has the right trousers in the right color--but not in my size. When they do have my size, yes--I am pleased.


----------



## Charles Dana

gamma68 said:


> As recently as a couple weeks ago, Bills had an 80% off sale.


I remember that. I ordered three items . I received only one of them:angry:. So Bills sent me a $50.00 gift card . So I picked up some poplin trousers .

Things worked out OK. Lemons into lemonade. Anyway, it's just clothes.


----------



## RobertM

Same here. That seems to be a problem with other O'Connell's merchandise as well, even ordinary accessories like belts and such. But at least there's no guesswork--you know it's there or it's not.



Charles Dana said:


> I like O'Connell's trousers. Very much. I just wish they would replenish their stock more often. So often, I find that O'Connell's has the right trousers in the right color--but not in my size. When they do have my size, yes--I am pleased.


----------



## jimbo365

RobertM said:


> Same here. That seems to be a problem with other O'Connell's merchandise as well, even ordinary accessories like belts and such. But at least there's no guesswork--you know it's there or it's not.


I have never tried O'Connell's before. I may have to do that in the future.

I was told on the phone that Bills would be getting in new stuff.

Can't be certain if they were being honest. Furthermore, there was nothing about where it would be made as well.


----------



## jimbo365

They told me on the phone, that new things would be coming.
I can't be certain beyond that. They have just wanted to look good on the phone and end the conversation.


----------



## Old Road Dog

I found a beautiful plaid twill BK shirt at Marshall's for $14.99. The best looking and fitting LSSS I've had in a long time. The ladies in my family love it.


----------



## Fading Fast

If they plan on coming back, I can't think of them having gone about this inventory liquidation in a worse way possible. I will never think about the brand as a premium product worth buying at or near full price again and I can't image others who have been part of the daily "last chance" email barrage thinking differently.


----------



## gamma68

If they want to get serious, place all remaining inventory on sale at 90% off until it's all gone. 

Instead, they're playing this con game where one day it's 80% off, then it's available at full price but with free shipping, then it's at 50% off, etc. etc.

Whoever is running Bills has already shot a hole in the rowboat, and everyone knows it. So instead of sinking to the bottom with all that inventory (which they obviously couldn't clear out during the pre-Christmas fire sale), deal it for whatever you can get. Then go offline again, collect your wits, and come back with all new merchandise for a true fresh start.


----------



## Slim Jim

Charles Dana said:


> I remember that. I ordered three items . I received only one of them:angry:. So Bills sent me a $50.00 gift card . So I picked up some poplin trousers


I'm a big fan of Bills poplins also. No other company has those beauties.What colors did you pick up?


----------



## Charles Dana

Slim Jim said:


> I'm a big fan of Bills poplins also. No other company has those beauties.What colors did you pick up?


Stone, wicker, and "camel," which is really the same color as the Bills khaki-colored twills. "Wicker" is kind of an ecru shade.


----------



## Anon 18th Cent.

jimbo365 said:


> They told me on the phone, that new things would be coming.
> I can't be certain beyond that. They have just wanted to look good on the phone and end the conversation.


One possibility is that the new merchandise was already underway when the plug was pulled. There are substantial lead times in the clothing business.

It seems very improbable that the new owners could have put in place a whole new framework with new suppliers and products in a few weeks.


----------



## Bermuda

I just ebayed a nice Bills plaid shirt. Msrp 165$!??? They must be high quality and I'm excited


----------



## niv

I ordered 3 pair of pants on February 29, all of which I wanted cuffed, and received them yesterday. That is really good service, which surprises me. I'll continue to order if they have any more ridiculous sales. If they survive, I'm not sure I'd ever pay retail for them again.


----------



## Patrick R

Does anyone know of an active coupon code?
They continue to add items into the clearance section. Some that were sold out earlier. I'd guess they are returns from retail. I've checked my local Marshall's a couple of times and not seen anything there yet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## clmickle

Well if they were sold to a private equity firm they will likely be seen again. Just means a different owner.


----------



## blue suede shoes

I haven't seen Hansen Clothing mentioned in this thread yet. They may have what you are looking for. I have no financial relation with them of course, just a satisfied customer.


----------



## FLMike

clmickle said:


> Well if they were sold to a private equity firm they will likely be seen again. Just means a different owner.


Not so straightforward, my friend. recommend you read through the thread.


----------



## Charles Dana

Patrick R said:


> Does anyone know of an active coupon code?


None that I'm aware of right now.


----------



## clmickle

FLCracka said:


> Not so straightforward, my friend. recommend you read through the thread.


From what I've read (no I didn't read all 24 pages) they were acquired by a private equity firm. There is no reason for a PE firm to invest expensive capital into a business unless it has plans to get a return. So they wouldn't just acquire it and close the doors.


----------



## niv

clmickle said:


> From what I've read (no I didn't read all 24 pages) they were acquired by a private equity firm. There is no reason for a PE firm to invest expensive capital into a business unless it has plans to get a return. So they wouldn't just acquire it and close the doors.


No need to read the thread. Just search for FLCracka's posts. His analysis of the issue is excellent.


----------



## eagle2250

blue suede shoes said:


> I haven't seen Hansen Clothing mentioned in this thread yet. They may have what you are looking for. I have no financial relation with them of course, just a satisfied customer.


Having made perhaps a dozen or more purchases from Hansen's, every transaction was handled well and by purchasing from them when they were offering discounted prices on large lots of Bills trousers, I've been able to buy most of my Bill's were purchased at remarkably good prices...though not discounted as deeply, as Bill's liquidation pricing!


----------



## FLMike

clmickle said:


> From what I've read (no I didn't read all 24 pages) they were acquired by a private equity firm. There is no reason for a PE firm to invest expensive capital into a business unless it has plans to get a return. So they wouldn't just acquire it and close the doors.


Well, then at least read post #420 on page 17 for a quick explanation as to why this doesn't follow the textbook PE acquisition model. They didn't purchase the company voluntarily.

And, yes, they did "just acquire it and close the doors", at least the doors of BK as we all knew it.


----------



## jimbo365

Charles Dana said:


> I remember that. I ordered three items . I received only one of them:angry:. So Bills sent me a $50.00 gift card . So I picked up some poplin trousers .
> 
> Things worked out OK. Lemons into lemonade. Anyway, it's just clothes.


I noticed they are selling something called "stretch twill" on Bills website. Are these new?
I have never heard of them.


----------



## Bermuda

Just received my Bills button down plaid shirt and the fit is Classic fit. However the cuffs are so tight I can barely get my hand through. I'm thinking it's a slim fit and I'm kinda disappointed


----------



## toddorbertBU

Patrick R said:


> Does anyone know of an active coupon code?
> They continue to add items into the clearance section. Some that were sold out earlier. I'd guess they are returns from retail. I've checked my local Marshall's a couple of times and not seen anything there yet.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


BKSHIP for $7.50 off your order


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## Patrick R

toddorbertBU said:


> BKSHIP for $7.50 off your order


Thank you!
Used it on a pair of whiskey suede chukkas.
I'm continually surprised by the amount of previous season stock they had.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## clmickle

FLCracka said:


> Well, then at least read post #420 on page 17 for a quick explanation as to why this doesn't follow the textbook PE acquisition model. They didn't purchase the company voluntarily.
> 
> And, yes, they did "just acquire it and close the doors", at least the doors of BK as we all knew it.


Interesting. The story makes a little more sense now. Mezz guys don't typically like to be in the position of running companies but sometimes it's inevitable. I work in energy private equity and am watching many energy companies go through this right now.


----------



## Walter Denton

I just received a coupon code (add75) from Bills for an additional 75% off clearance prices. I ordered a pair of Bullard Twills and a shirt for a total of $51.75 including shipping


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## gamma68

That 75% off coupon takes the Harris Tweed jacket down to just shy of $125. Lovely cloth, but I'm still not certain I want to take the plunge for a darted two-button jacket that may not fit right and is non-returnable.


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## Reuben

Walter Denton said:


> I just received a coupon code (add75) from Bills for an additional 75% off clearance prices. I ordered a pair of Bullard Twills and a shirt for a total of $51.75 including shipping


Excellent, thanks for sharing. I snagged three M1's (navy, burgundy, and "nutmeg") plus wool donegal m2's all hemmed and cuffed for $90.


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## belopsky

I wanted to get a pair of M1 but don't like paying $10 on a $20 pair (yes still great compared to $150msrp)


----------



## Reuben

belopsky said:


> I wanted to get a pair of M1 but don't like paying $10 on a $20 pair (yes still great compared to $150msrp)


Then get four pairs and pay $2.50 each.


----------



## belopsky

Thats one way to think about it. Wish there were some khaki and british khaki on clearance still. I missed them earlier.

I don't really think the other colors are as versatile in my wardrobe.


----------



## Reuben

belopsky said:


> Thats one way to think about it. Wish there were some khaki and british khaki on clearance still. I missed them earlier.
> 
> I don't really think the other colors are as versatile in my wardrobe.


Bummer that, I snagged a British, two khaki, and a stone around Christmastime for about the same price. Y'all keep updating with new/better codes!


----------



## Patrick R

Reuben said:


> Bummer that, I snagged a British, two khaki, and a stone around Christmastime for about the same price. Y'all keep updating with new/better codes!


I doubt the deals will get any better than 88%. If we're correct about this being an entire liquidation then summer styles are next. I did buy one pair of poplin @ 50% just to try them out.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jimbo365

Patrick R said:


> I doubt the deals will get any better than 88%. If we're correct about this being an entire liquidation then summer styles are next. I did buy one pair of poplin @ 50% just to try them out.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I spoke with a guy named Jeff when I called. He said he was uncertain about a fall line. He mentioned getting in some pants though. I noticed they seem to have some khakis in M2 and M2P original twill.

I guess it comes down to whether the new owners want to continue this adventure or not.


----------



## Dmontez

on yesterdays extra 75% off clearance I got a couple pairs of pants for myself, but I am really excited to have gotten some "lil bills" for my son. came out to 4 bucks for a pair of those. Anyone with some little guys running around should look into that.


----------



## FLMike

Dmontez said:


> on yesterdays extra 75% off clearance I got a couple pairs of pants for myself, but I am really excited to have gotten some "lil bills" for my son. came out to 4 bucks for a pair of those. Anyone with some little guys running around should look into that.


Shaver has requested that you post a picture of him wearing his new Lil' Bills.


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## Dmontez

:lol:

I don't enjoy using the shorthand for laugh out loud, but that genuinely made me laugh.


FLCracka said:


> Shaver has requested that you post a picture of him wearing his new Lil' Bills.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

I really wish I had an excuse to buy lemonade poplins.


----------



## irish95

Back in November, I ordered some shirts and the dark brown moc loafers for 50% off. I received the items in about 10 days. After seeing this thread, I was a little hesitant to try again. Last Monday I ordered the saddle colored mocs (which they did not have in my size for about a month) for 99.00 and they showed up 4 days later. I can't complain, cheap and quick delivery. Bills original price is 375.00, Rancourt sells the same/similar shoes for around 240.00. As Rancourt is supposed to be involved in the Bills shoe, it could help explain the issues for Bill's.


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## jkidd41011

This seems like the classic example of a niche company trying to expand and killing what they did well. I love their old khakis.....but shirts, sweaters, etc. I never understood.


----------



## jimbo365

jkidd41011 said:


> This seems like the classic example of a niche company trying to expand and killing what they did well. I love their old khakis.....but shirts, sweaters, etc. I never understood.


It feels weird that it is spring and I am not getting my usual Bills Khakis catalog. I miss that part of spring.


----------



## Dmontez

as requested my lil one, in lil bills:









side note: Has anyone experienced a difference in sizing?

I bought two pairs of M2s in a size up from what I already own, and noticed that they are much more tapered from the hips down. It's a pair of Vintage Twills and a pair of Donegal Tweed. They are even more tapered than my M3's in the same size.


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## Patrick R

Yes. I have gotten several m2 that feel and look more like m3. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Reuben

Dmontez said:


> as requested my lil one, in lil bills:
> 
> side note: Has anyone experienced a difference in sizing?
> 
> I bought two pairs of M2s in a size up from what I already own, and noticed that they are much more tapered from the hips down. It's a pair of Vintage Twills and a pair of Donegal Tweed. They are even more tapered than my M3's in the same size.





Patrick R said:


> Yes. I have gotten several m2 that feel and look more like m3.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Glad to know it's not just me. My M1's are definitely a little trimmer in the glutes and thigh than I'd been used to.

Edit: also, anyone got an active extra % off clearance code?


----------



## gamma68

If anyone received a pair of Bills flat front M2 Donegal tweeds and decide they don't like 'em, I'm interested. Waist 34.


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## Slim Jim

jimbo365 said:


> I noticed they are selling something called "stretch twill" on Bills website. Are these new?
> I have never heard of them.


I don't recall them either.


----------



## jimbo365

Reuben said:


> Glad to know it's not just me. My M1's are definitely a little trimmer in the glutes and thigh than I'd been used to.
> 
> Edit: also, anyone got an active extra % off clearance code?


Has anyone heard any news about Bills going forward?

Have a nice day.


----------



## FLMike

jimbo365 said:


> Has anyone heard any news about Bills going forward?
> 
> Have a nice day.


Just that the Bills with which we're all familiar no longer exists. Don't know anything about the "new" Bills.


----------



## DRWWE

I just got an order from Bills, one pair of chamois-cloth trousers, M2P, in navy. They are nice and fit me well. Quality seems fine. I haven't purchased anything from them since I heard about their troubles, but they sent out an email for these pants at half price (something I wanted anyway), and I got them. Shipping time was as quick as I recall from the past. I haven't tried any of their other stuff yet as I don't need anything (I have a lot of their pants), but I would buy from them again.


----------



## belopsky

I'm waiting for another sale on the sale. Looking to get an M1 pant in a smaller waist as I've lost weight


----------



## swils8610

I placed an order from Bills last week and it arrived today. No issues.


----------



## jimbo365

Does the company have any future beyond the next few months? That is what I am curious about.


----------



## swils8610

No one really knows....


----------



## JLibourel

Is there really a "new Bill's," or is this outfit still liquidating old stock? My impression is that the latter is the case.


----------



## Patrick R

I've seen no sign that they have received any new stock but if they cancelled all POs after the change over it would take a long time to get new product made. Honestly, I'll believe it when I see it. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## swils8610

Seems to be liquidating still


----------



## jimbo365

swils8610 said:


> Seems to be liquidating still


I spoke with someone named Jeff who said they got a couple of thousand pairs of original twills in I believe. It did appear that the Originals were back in most sizes of the Cement and Khaki. I am not sure how many they have at this point with all of the sales.


----------



## Dmontez

I don't think it's still liquidating. Id say they continued making new stock and are messing with the patterns as well. My last order of M2s fit tighter than a size down M3. I ordered a two pairs of size 42 M2 due to some weight gain my size 40 M2 and M3 were fitting a little snug. The 42s definitely have enough room in the waist but there's a drastic taper from the hips to the thighs.

Others are having the same issues.


----------



## Boatshoo

"New Bills" is based in CT, I believe. Some of my local mens retailers (well, 2 of the stores near me) have heard from Bill Thomas about selling wholesale again. I'd say the Northeast corridor would be their starting point. Doubt many of the Southern stores will jump back on due to the continuing sales (and yes, its still liquidation.) Some of the posters have said they're talking to Jeff in customer service...I believe he's a holdover from original Bills. Might be good to ask that guy about the new direction.


----------



## Charles Dana

Dmontez said:


> I ordered two pairs of size 42 M2....The 42s definitely have enough room in the waist but there's a drastic taper from the hips to the thighs.


If the rise is still adequate, it appears as though you may have stumbled upon the holy grail of today's cybertrads: "collegiate cut" khakis. Embrace that taper!


----------



## Dmontez

Charles Dana said:


> If the rise is still adequate, it appears as though you may have stumbled upon the holy grail of today's cybertrads: "collegiate cut" khakis. Embrace that taper!


I don't know what a cybertrad is or what collegiate cut is, what I do know is that it feels weird to have pants loose on your waist and tight on your hips. Tight enough to have the pockets pulling.


----------



## Charles Dana

Dmontez said:


> _t feels weird to have pants loose on your waist and tight on your hips. Tight enough to have the pockets pulling._


_

Well, that's not good. What you have experienced with Bills is what I have gone through with Polo Ralph Lauen and Brooks Brothers: their khakis used to be my go-to casual trousers. Then they messed around with the fit, especially by lowering the rise. Now, for me, it's Bills and O'Connell's--as well as my older, pre-screwed-around-with Ralph Laurens and BBs. I also have some four-year-old LL Bean "1912 chinos" that I like a lot. I think they are now called "Lakewashed Chinos." Very good quality--you might like them if you get the full-fit version, which Bean calls the "natural fit."

Oh--"cybertrad": that's just a dumb word I made up (before I realized that a musician named Matthew Olwell had already coined the word to describe the unique kind of music his group plays). To me, but not to Mr. Olwell, a "cybertrad" is a person who has a keen interest in trad clothing, and who then interactively uses the Internet to discuss it, learn about it, and share what he has learned with other like-minded folks. Dmontez, whether you know it or not, you're a cybertrad!

"Collegiate-cut khakis"--that's a term I borrowed (well, stole) from the very fine blog of oxfordclothbuttondown. It means the long-rise, trim-fitting khakis that college guys wore from around 1958 to about 1966--the kind of tapered trousers that the Ivy League college men are wearing in the Japanese book titled "Take Ivy."_


----------



## phillytrad

Do the oconnells have a nice taper?


----------



## Charles Dana

phillytrad said:


> Do the oconnells have a nice taper?


There's a taper, but not a significant one. They are more tapered than the BIlls M2 (or at least the Bills M2 of several years ago). But they are still fairly full-cut.


----------



## Himself

Dmontez said:


> I don't know what a cybertrad is or what collegiate cut is, what I do know is that it feels weird to have pants loose on your waist and tight on your hips. Tight enough to have the pockets pulling.


This is what I dislike about both BB Clark and JD Slim Fit. They feel like a smaller size with the waistband let out. If I buy the next size up, the waistband bunches under my belt.


----------



## Himself

Charles Dana said:


> I also have some four-year-old LL Bean "1912 chinos" that I like a lot. I think they are now called "Lakewashed Chinos." Very good quality--you might like them if you get the full-fit version, which Bean calls the "natural fit."


I had some of the shorts, in the Standard Fit. I liked them very much, and they were unbelievably durable. I still have some, almost new, that I bought too big (34) by mistake, if anyone's interested.



> "Collegiate-cut khakis"--that's a term I borrowed (well, stole) from the very fine blog of oxfordclothbuttondown. It means the long-rise, trim-fitting khakis that college guys wore from around 1958 to about 1966--the kind of tapered trousers that the Ivy League college men are wearing in the Japanese book titled "Take Ivy."


The JD Slim Fit come closest to this of any that I've found.


----------



## Patrick R

Dmontez said:


> I don't think it's still liquidating. Id say they continued making new stock and are messing with the patterns as well. My last order of M2s fit tighter than a size down M3. I ordered a two pairs of size 42 M2 due to some weight gain my size 40 M2 and M3 were fitting a little snug. The 42s definitely have enough room in the waist but there's a drastic taper from the hips to the thighs.
> 
> Others are having the same issues.


I've gotten some m2s that fit like m3s but attributed it to inconsistency or even miss tagged items. I still haven't seen any truly new items on the website but they could still be receiving old orders.


----------



## jimbo365

Boatshoo said:


> "New Bills" is based in CT, I believe. Some of my local mens retailers (well, 2 of the stores near me) have heard from Bill Thomas about selling wholesale again. I'd say the Northeast corridor would be their starting point. Doubt many of the Southern stores will jump back on due to the continuing sales (and yes, its still liquidation.) Some of the posters have said they're talking to Jeff in customer service...I believe he's a holdover from original Bills. Might be good to ask that guy about the new direction.


It is going to be impossible for people to ever pay full price again. There is a 30% sale daily. How can we pay 145 dollars again for their pants?


----------



## Sir Cingle

There are definitely sizing issues. I ordered two pairs of shorts during their (Jos. A. Bank-esque) buy-one-get-one-free sale. Though both pairs were nominally the same size, one fit fine, the other is ridiculously snug, and thus I'm returning it. This is annoying, because I never had quality-control issues with Bill's at all. Now I'm hesitant to buy anything from them, unless I can try it on first.


----------



## HOOT

Himself said:


> "Collegiate-cut khakis"--that's a term I borrowed (well, stole) from the very fine blog of oxfordclothbuttondown. It means the long-rise, trim-fitting khakis that college guys wore from around 1958 to about 1966--the kind of tapered trousers that the men are wearing in the Japanese book titled "Take Ivy."
> 
> 
> 
> The JD Slim Fit come closest to this of any that I've found.
Click to expand...

Not anymore, they recently tweaked the slim fit and it now has too low of a rise.


----------



## Charles Dana

HOOT said:


> Not anymore, they recently tweaked the slim fit and it now has too low of a rise.


That sounds so typical. Is there a federal law stipulating that only hopelessly obtuse people are allowed to go into the ready-made clothing industry? It seems as though any time an existing product is "tweaked," the resulting change is always for the worse--never for the better. There's constantly a steady devolution: fabric, fit, quality--they keep getting ratcheted down. I'm sure there must be exceptions--Ben Silver, O'Connell's, for instance--but the problem with exceptions is that they are exceptions.

I remember when you could walk into the men's clothing section of mid-tier department stores and be surrounded by relatively high-quality goods.


----------



## eagle2250

Boy, I wish they would put any of their pop-over designed OCBDs that may be found still lying around on a deep discount sale. Way overpriced when purchased at full price, but they would be a great shirt priced at $50 or less!


----------



## jimbo365

Patrick R said:


> I've gotten some m2s that fit like m3s but attributed it to inconsistency or even miss tagged items. I still haven't seen any truly new items on the website but they could still be receiving old orders.


Got an email today saying they had vintage twills back in stock. I guess that means they are trying to keep this going for a little while longer.


----------



## Patrick R

New additions to the clearance section. 70% off. Interesting, there are a couple shirts that I don't remember ever seeing. Including a Pendleton wool billings shirt. I ordered a shirt and it shipped the same day! That's a first for me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Reuben

Received a rather pleasant surprise this afternoon. Just shy of a month after ordering and two weeks after being told my order was canceled because they were sold out, UPS dropped off a brand new pair of crepe-soled Rancourt pennies in "expresso" leather.


----------



## jimbo365

Reuben said:


> Received a rather pleasant surprise this afternoon. Just shy of a month after ordering and two weeks after being told my order was canceled because they were sold out, UPS dropped off a brand new pair of crepe-soled Rancourt pennies in "expresso" leather.


Seems as though Bills is dead. All they do is run the same sale for weeks on end.

I used to like them, but feel as though it is a waste to shop with them.


----------



## deanayer

Well this is depressing as I intended to one day buy a pair and try them mostly because they offered lengths in half inch increments and odd sized waist measurements.


----------



## Slim Jim

deanayer said:


> Well this is depressing as I intended to one day buy a pair and try them mostly because they offered lengths in half inch increments and odd sized waist measurements.


You can still try them, they have some items in stock and good sales going on. Just don't get hooked because the future doesn't seem bright


----------



## Boatshoo

Heard some news today from one of my local mens stores, Bill Thomas is no longer with Bills Khakis. The guy at my store didn't know what he's up to now, but hopefully he'll bring his designing with him and we'll have a new "Bills Khakis" soon!


----------



## Fancia

Boatshoo said:


> Heard some news today from one of my local mens stores, Bill Thomas is no longer with Bills Khakis. The guy at my store didn't know what he's up to now, but hopefully he'll bring his designing with him and we'll have a new "Bills Khakis" soon!


Frank's Khakis (horrible name) is going to beat Bill Thomas to the punch with the surest replacement for the Bill's Khakis we all have come to know and love. Look for this brand in stores this fall. Models include: F1, F1P, F2 and F2P but nothing trimmer than that and nothing with a one-piece jean style waistband.

Frank has already locked up contracts with the factories that used to supply the fabrics and the fabrication for Bill's Khakis. Frank is headquartered out of Chicago and vows to keep everything Made in the USA. My local retailer has shared with me that Bill Thomas is laying the groundwork for future contracts, but how does the old adage go...fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. I don't know that we will see Bill Thomas at the top of the khaki pant marker again.


----------



## jimbo365

Fancia said:


> Frank's Khakis (horrible name) is going to beat Bill Thomas to the punch with the surest replacement for the Bill's Khakis we all have come to know and love. Look for this brand in stores this fall. Models include: F1, F1P, F2 and F2P but nothing trimmer than that and nothing with a one-piece jean style waistband.
> 
> Frank has already locked up contracts with the factories that used to supply the fabrics and the fabrication for Bill's Khakis. Frank is headquartered out of Chicago and vows to keep everything Made in the USA. My local retailer has shared with me that Bill Thomas is laying the groundwork for future contracts, but how does the old adage go...fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. I don't know that we will see Bill Thomas at the top of the khaki pant marker again.


All American Khakis has nice pants that are made in the US. I haven't tried them, but I think they make the JD pants. They are both in Georgia.

I can't imagine Bill Thomas has much sway anymore after what happen to BK over the last year.

Then again I could be wrong.

Frank's Khakis that should be interesting. I find the original twill to be my favorite fabric.


----------



## 89826

Let's see. Bill Thomas had a great idea (high-quality old-fashioned khakis, American manufacturing), built his business from scratch into a success, got jacked by some pe types, and his baby failed.

Seems to me if he gets another shot, he'll be a little wiser and more skillfull.


----------



## jimbo365

89826 said:


> Let'see. Bill Thomas had a great idea (high-quality old-fashioned khakis, American manufacturing), built his business from scratch into a success, got jacked by some pe types, and his baby failed.
> 
> Seems to me if he gets another shot, he'll be a little wiser and more skillfull.


It seems as though it was a great idea as long as it remained small. When the merger happened, the new people wanted a huge return for their investment.

It doesn't seem practical that Bills was made for the big time in the competitive world of clothing.


----------



## swils8610

Does anyone have a website for Frank's Khakis?


----------



## jimbo365

swils8610 said:


> Does anyone have a website for Frank's Khakis?


This appears to be the guy. His name is Frank Herbert.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frank-herbert-a3a94310

I couldn't find an actual website for this pants.

Howard Yount looks interesting.

Has anyone tried them?


----------



## HerrDavid

Just received an email from Hansen's and it looks like they're throwing their hats into the post-Bill's ring.  And from the nomenclature (e.g. Model F2), these look to be the aforementioned Frank's Khakis. Chamois cloth and vintage twill offered so far.

https://www.hansensclothing.com/Pan...Pants&search_return=all&Brand=Hansen's+Khakis


----------



## jimbo365

HerrDavid said:


> Just received an email from Hansen's and it looks like they're throwing their hats into the post-Bill's ring. And from the nomenclature (e.g. Model F2), these look to be the aforementioned Frank's Khakis. Chamois cloth and vintage twill offered so far.
> 
> https://www.hansensclothing.com/Pan...Pants&search_return=all&Brand=Hansen's+Khakis


I guest the new motto is "We made Franks better by not changing a thing."

BK really did themselves harm. Nobody knows what is going on with them. They said they are dong a fall lineup, but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## adept

Looks to me like there are still plenty of alternatives for anyone seeking chinos in the $100.00+ dollar range.


----------



## xcubbies

Does anyone know the rise on those chamois cloths?


----------



## Dmontez

adept said:


> Looks to me like there are still plenty of alternatives for anyone seeking chinos in the $100.00+ dollar range.


I don't think anyone is specifically looking for chinos at a price point above $100.00

What we are looking for is chinos that have a generous(correct) rise in quality fabrics and craftsmanship.


----------



## 89826

jimbo365 said:


> I guest the new motto is "We made Franks better by not changing a thing."
> 
> BK really did themselves harm. Nobody knows what is going on with them. They said they are dong a fall lineup, but I'm not holding my breath.


Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


----------



## Old Road Dog

The notion of $150 khaki pants made by anyone, anywhere, still boggles the mind. I have some Bill's. They are nice, but I didn't and wouldn't pay full boat for them, particularly when there is a $20 add for finishing the bottoms. The only khakis I ever had that were truly superior were some PRL ones that were made in USA and had great details like flap and button watch pocket, extension waistband with side tabs, and change pocket-in-pocket. They were also dry clean only, which meant the findings (trimmings) were also much nicer throughout.


----------



## Reuben

Old Road Dog said:


> The notion of $150 khaki pants made by anyone, anywhere, still boggles the mind. I have some Bill's. They are nice, but I didn't and wouldn't pay full boat for them, particularly when there is a $20 add for finishing the bottoms. The only khakis I ever had that were truly superior were some PRL ones that were made in USA and had great details like flap and button watch pocket, extension waistband with side tabs, and change pocket-in-pocket. They were also *dry clean only*, which meant the findings (trimmings) were also much nicer throughout.


I dunno, dry clean only khakis seem more mind-boggling than expensive ones.


----------



## Old Road Dog

The khakis from PRL were really mean't for dress wear. These were before the days of PRL Roughwear where all new pants wear unwashed and fully constructed. There were no jeans-constructed casual pants with single piece waistbands. The best selling khakis were from as company called Thompson Manufacturing. Whoever made the POLO trousers did a fantastic job on them. The name has been mentioned here before. A Brooklyn company, I think.


----------



## jimbo365

Old Road Dog said:


> The khakis from PRL were really mean't for dress wear. These were before the days of PRL Roughwear where all new pants wear unwashed and fully constructed. There were no jeans-constructed casual pants with single piece waistbands. The best selling khakis were from as company called Thompson Manufacturing. Whoever made the POLO trousers did a fantastic job on them. The name has been mentioned here before. A Brooklyn company, I think.


I think you may be referring to the company that makes All American Khakis. They are out of Thompson, GA I believe. I am almost certain they make the pants for JD, who is out of Atlanta.

I have never tried a pair of JD's, but may do in the future. They seem to be a big hit around here.


----------



## crispyfresh

jimbo365 said:


> I think you may be referring to the company that makes All American Khakis. They are out of Thompson, GA I believe. I am almost certain they make the pants for JD, who is out of Atlanta.
> 
> I have never tried a pair of JD's, but may do in the future. They seem to be a big hit around here.


JD has been out of stock for over a month now. Its funny that they are mentioned in the same thread as Bill's khakis because something is up with them also.


----------



## Slim Jim

adept said:


> Looks to me like there are still plenty of alternatives for anyone seeking chinos in the $100.00+ dollar range.


That has the same cut and variety as Bills? I doubt it. If so tell me where?


----------



## alkydrinker

Did anyone else get the email that Bills is doing a factory sale in Reading, PA this weekend? I've gone to these sales in Reading in the past...it used to be $20 for a pair of pants. Not sure what to expect for this one, with the add just saying "up to 80% off". I have a proxy shopper going for me.


----------



## Reuben

^ Anyone feel like proxying?


----------



## sskim3

2.5 hr drive for me from NJ. Not sure if the SWMBO would be too happy with the suggestion. LOL


----------



## Fading Fast

I am not up to date on all 23 pages of this thread, but thought this post might be pertinent. 

Last week, on 6/30, I ordered three pairs of pants from Bill's - 2 vintage twills, one poplin - at 50% off (saw the sale notice on an email from them - and I know they have been running non-stop sales for months now - the timing just fit and the sale was on the model I wanted). I had the pairs hemmed and they came yesterday (darn fast considering the hemming plus July 4th falling in-between). 

All was perfect with the order. The size, the hemming, the color, etc. For about $75 a pair, they are good, if not great, value as I own a few other pairs and they do hold up well. 

I know from my periodic reading of this thread that many have had ordering issues, so I wanted to share my experience - maybe they've fixed some of their issues.


----------



## jimbo365

Fading Fast said:


> I am not up to date on all 23 pages of this thread, but thought this post might be pertinent.
> 
> Last week, on 6/30, I ordered three pairs of pants from Bill's - 2 vintage twills, one poplin - at 50% off (saw the sale notice on an email from them - and I know they have been running non-stop sales for months now - the timing just fit and the sale was on the model I wanted). I had the pairs hemmed and they came yesterday (darn fast considering the hemming plus July 4th falling in-between).
> 
> All was perfect with the order. The size, the hemming, the color, etc. For about $75 a pair, they are good, if not great, value as I own a few other pairs and they do hold up well.
> 
> I know from my periodic reading of this thread that many have had ordering issues, so I wanted to share my experience - maybe they've fixed some of their issues.


I had a similar experience. I ordered a black pair of M2 on a big discount. 
They claim to have a fall lineup in the works.

Let's see what happens.


----------



## Dmontez

What's the possibility that those of us that were buying around 6 months ago were actually purchasing stuff that likely would have been "2nd quality" but was being pushed out anyway due to the volume they were doing with their 80% off sales?

I know I purchased M2s(after Bill Thomas) that were cut identical to M3s and even smaller than M2s(during Bill Thomas) in a waist size down.


----------



## orange fury

Dmontez said:


> What's the possibility that those of us that were buying around 6 months ago were actually purchasing stuff that likely would have been "2nd quality" but was being pushed out anyway due to the volume they were doing with their 80% off sales?
> 
> I know I purchased M2s(after Bill Thomas) that were cut identical to M3s and even smaller than M2s(during Bill Thomas) in a waist size down.


My shetland that I got a few weeks pefore Christmas has no issues whatsoever (and we all know how meticulous/OCD I can be...). I admittedly haven't compared mine to other Bills Shetlands, but if they were still selling them, I'd pull the trigger on another.


----------



## Slim Jim

Reuben said:


> ^ Anyone feel like proxying?


I'm gonna try to get there over the weekend, what do you need?


----------



## alkydrinker

*Regarding the Warehouse Sale....*

I got a second-hand report that pants are $20-$25 although many of them are finished and the inseams are not marked (an employee will measure them but if you are going, bring a measuring tape).

Shirts are also around $20....no details on those.

I wish I could tell you more, but there is only so much info you can get from your mother-in-law (my proxy) on men's finery.


----------



## jimbo365

alkydrinker said:


> *Regarding the Warehouse Sale....*
> 
> I got a second-hand report that pants are $20-$25 although many of them are finished and the inseams are not marked (an employee will measure them but if you are going, bring a measuring tape).
> 
> Shirts are also around $20....no details on those.
> 
> I wish I could tell you more, but there is only so much info you can get from your mother-in-law (my proxy) on men's finery.


Was there any word on the future of the company?


----------



## Slim Jim

alkydrinker said:


> *Regarding the Warehouse Sale....*
> 
> I got a second-hand report that pants are $20-$25 although many of them are finished and the inseams are not marked (an employee will measure them but if you are going, bring a measuring tape).
> 
> Shirts are also around $20....no details on those.
> 
> I wish I could tell you more, but there is only so much info you can get from your mother-in-law (my proxy) on men's finery.


Oh no finished is no good for me. I'm too tall.
What about the variety of pants? Did they have poplin, vintage twill, travel twill, original twill, chamois, stretch twill, flannel lined twill, canvas?
Can you press her for more details?


----------



## Reuben

Slim Jim said:


> I'm gonna try to get there over the weekend, what do you need?


Missed this man, sorry about that. If you're still making the trip I'm looking for any M1 (not M1P) in a 35-31+ or unfinished, mostly basics but could go for a pair or two of their wilder stuff or some seersucker.


----------



## jimbo365

Reuben said:


> Missed this man, sorry about that. If you're still making the trip I'm looking for any M1 (not M1P) in a 35-31+ or unfinished, mostly basics but could go for a pair or two of their wilder stuff or some seersucker.


I'm confused. Who ran this? Was this done by the Bills out of Connecticut? Was Bill Thomas part of this?

Why did a place who sells things out of CT, now take the sale to the Reading area?

Any input would be helpful.


----------



## Slim Jim

Reuben said:


> Missed this man, sorry about that. If you're still making the trip I'm looking for any M1 (not M1P) in a 35-31+ or unfinished, mostly basics but could go for a pair or two of their wilder stuff or some seersucker.


Sorry, I didn't get there. Maybe if they do one in the Fall I'll take the drive. Just never got the chance this weekend.


----------



## my19

jimbo365 said:


> I'm confused. Who ran this? Was this done by the Bills out of Connecticut? Was Bill Thomas part of this?
> 
> Why did a place who sells things out of CT, now take the sale to the Reading area?
> 
> Any input would be helpful.


Bill's, when Bill Thomas was leading the company, was founded and based in Reading, PA. As long as I remember, the warehouse sale has been in the Reading area. Of course, given the changes in management, that too could change.


----------



## jimbo365

my19 said:


> Bill's, when Bill Thomas was leading the company, was founded and based in Reading, PA. As long as I remember, the warehouse sale has been in the Reading area. Of course, given the changes in management, that too could change.


It looks like Bills is coming out with a fall line. If you look at their new FB page, they talk about the fall line.

This should be interesting...


----------



## inq89

jimbo365 said:


> It looks like Bills is coming out with a fall line. If you look at their new FB page, they talk about the fall line.
> 
> This should be interesting...


Just saw this as well. What's the consensus y'all?

Good news for me because I was hoping to try their M4 trim fit, had missed out on the last remaining clearance twills in my size. Course...their "60min" twills are almost $200 MSRP.... so may play the wait & see game.


----------



## Fading Fast

inq89 said:


> Just saw this as well. What's the consensus y'all?
> 
> Good news for me because I was hoping to try their M4 trim fit, had missed out on the last remaining clearance twills in my size. Course...their "60min" twills are almost $200 MSRP.... so may play the wait & see game.


After well over half a year of daily emails touting this or that sale and having bought several pairs of pants on 50% - 75% off sales, I think they will struggle to return to a full-price model. I know I have no interest in their pants at anything but 50% off or more.

I buy the M3, but didn't even know they had an M4. I love the M3 as it is trim, but not at all super skinny, tight, etc. I assume the M4 is a slimmer fit than the M3?


----------



## gamma68

jimbo365 said:


> It looks like Bills is coming out with a fall line. If you look at their new FB page, they talk about the fall line.
> 
> This should be interesting...


Made in the USA, or made in China?


----------



## 89826

Didn't I hear that Bill Thomas had resurfaced somewhere?


----------



## godan

Fading Fast said:


> After well over half a year of daily emails touting this or that sale and having bought several pairs of pants on 50% - 75% off sales, I think they will struggle to return to a full-price model. I know I have no interest in their pants at anything but 50% off or more.
> 
> I buy the M3, but didn't even know they had an M4. I love the M3 as it is trim, but not at all super skinny, tight, etc. I assume the M4 is a slimmer fit than the M3?


This has been my model. After buying a few pairs at full price, I learned about STP discounts and could often find a pair at the mothership when passing through Cheyenne. The M3's fit as though Bill had designed them for me. I would be interested to read about the M4 model, but anything slimmer or tighter than M3's would probably to too "youthful" for me.


----------



## jimbo365

inq89 said:


> Just saw this as well. What's the consensus y'all?
> 
> Good news for me because I was hoping to try their M4 trim fit, had missed out on the last remaining clearance twills in my size. Course...their "60min" twills are almost $200 MSRP.... so may play the wait & see game.


Not sure what to make of the fall line. I looked at their FB page, and it looks as though they are trying to put some photos of the line together.

I suspect it will be a smaller lineup in order to reduce all of the sales and inventory.

I am not sure if Bill Thomas will be playing a role in the new BK.


----------



## inq89

Indeed I'm holding out for later this FW to see when the full-prices items go down as we expect.

Yup the M4 is slimmer and has a lower rise than M3, which the latter has been my go-to as well. I suspect it'll fit similar to Jack Donnelly slim Dalton model if anyone has owned that, which my pair is strictly used for casual "fashion-forward" use, as someone in his mid 20s. I like them as a tighter denim-alternative, with the navy baracuta and desert boots. - McQ wannabee

https://www.billskhakis.com/size_fit_pants


----------



## eagle2250

Damn! It seems to me one would have to be almost 'sickly thin' to be able to comfortably fit into a pair of Bills new M4's? If the M4 design is the future, Bill's will of necessity, become a "thing" of my past! LOL.


----------



## JLibourel

^Same here! I'm strictly an "M1 guy." If I wanted to get khakis that fit like jeans--tight, low-rise--I'm sure I could find plenty of suitable options at places like Costco or Target for $30 or so.


----------



## Fading Fast

Hard to believe Bill's is going to center around the M4 and alienate a large swath of its customer base, but right now that company is such a mess who knows where it will land. 

And as a proud M3 buyer, I, one, don't want tighter and, two, only learned about the M4 here - so hard to believe it has a big following and one big enough to center your relaunched company around.


----------



## xcubbies

Before I buy a few pairs of M4s, think they'll ever do an M5?


----------



## Congresspark

Bill's ads pop up in my Facebook feed; the most recent have been offering a restock of M2s in "core colors."


----------



## jimbo365

Congresspark said:


> Bill's ads pop up in my Facebook feed; the most recent have been offering a restock of M2s in "core colors."


It looks like they restocked the M2 and M1 in Vintage Twill.

I guess their Fall lineup will be out soon. September is right around the corner.


----------



## Fading Fast

Just got my daily Bill's Khakis email and today's theme is its fit guide. 

In the email, they show four pants hanging, but only discuss three fits: M1, M2 and M3. Then, if you click through to the fit guide, all four sizes are there, but no great emphasis is made for the M4s. (Pretty sloppy editing to show four pants in your email, only talk about three fit sizes in the email and then direct email readers to a guide that has all four fits - somebody messed up.)

To me, this doesn't seem like a brand looking to either eliminate any of the M1 - M3 fits or make its focus the M4.


----------



## jimbo365

Fading Fast said:


> Just got my daily Bill's Khakis email and today's theme is its fit guide.
> 
> In the email, they show four pants hanging, but only discuss three fits: M1, M2 and M3. Then, if you click through to the fit guide, all four sizes are there, but no great emphasis is made for the M4s. (Pretty sloppy editing to show four pants in your email, only talk about three fit sizes in the email and then direct email readers to a guide that has all four fits - somebody messed up.)
> 
> To me, this doesn't seem like a brand looking to either eliminate any of the M1 - M3 fits or make its focus the M4.


It looked like a promo for the fall collection. The shirt was gray. I think the fall lineup will be out soon. What it entails remains to be seen.


----------



## Fading Fast

jimbo365 said:


> It looked like a promo for the fall collection. The shirt was gray. I think the fall lineup will be out soon. What it entails remains to be seen.


Agreed, feels like they are moving forward and not just kicking out old stock (that had to end at some point - the warehouse could only be so big and they've been clearing it out for over half a year now).

Also, an email a day is a bit much for a clothing retailer to send out - I'd be just as happy to hear from them only when something truly new happens.


----------



## jimbo365

Fading Fast said:


> Agreed, feels like they are moving forward and not just kicking out old stock (that had to end at some point - the warehouse could only be so big and they've been clearing it out for over half a year now).
> 
> Also, an email a day is a bit much for a clothing retailer to send out - I'd be just as happy to hear from them only when something truly new happens.


I think the emails are overdone. That being said, I get emails all the time from AE, LE, BB to name a few.

I think they have made a calculated decision that says, customers won't hold it against them as long as it goes to the junk mail folder. That is my take.


----------



## UVAwingshooter

For those of you that have purchased, are the M2s cut the same as before? Willing to pay the extra, but only if they are true Bill's.


----------



## Jzrhwinnj

UVAwingshooter said:


> For those of you that have purchased, are the M2s cut the same as before? Willing to pay the extra, but only if they are true Bill's.


I bought during liquidation before the sale of company, then during liquidation after sale of company.

Recently, bought some of the 'restocked' items. I have seen some fluctuation between their M2 sizing across the range of pants they sell (wool gabardine were all small at my usual size), but vintage twills, old and new fit the same.


----------



## jimbo365

Jzrhwinnj said:


> I bought during liquidation before the sale of company, then during liquidation after sale of company.
> 
> Recently, bought some of the 'restocked' items. I have seen some fluctuation between their M2 sizing across the range of pants they sell (wool gabardine were all small at my usual size), but vintage twills, old and new fit the same.


It looks as though BK put up some new shirts and boxers on their site.


----------



## 89826

I haven't been paying attention to Bills recently, but the website seems to show all the old stuff. The company stayed in business after all.

Bill Thomas landed at Dockers Premium.


----------



## winghus

89826 said:


> I haven't been paying attention to Bills recently, but the website seems to show all the old stuff. The company stayed in business after all.
> 
> Bill Thomas landed at Dockers Premium.


They went under new ownership, put out a lot of Asian-made tight-fitting garbage, went under again and now have resurfaced under even newer ownership making the original pants in the original styles and sizing. A shop near me had switched to Charleston Khaki's as a replacement but is back to Bill's now.


----------



## frydeswide

winghus said:


> They went under new ownership, put out a lot of Asian-made tight-fitting garbage, went under again and now have resurfaced under even newer ownership making the original pants in the original styles and sizing. A shop near me had switched to Charleston Khaki's as a replacement but is back to Bill's now.


That is great news. Thank you for the post.


----------



## swils8610

I hope they go back to the way the pants were when Bill Thomas was the owner. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## JLibourel

Interesting this thread was just revived. I just bought two pairs of Bill's khakis--Original Twill in British Khaki, Vintage Twill in Olive (M1 fit, of course). As far as I could tell, they were indistinguishable from the old Bill's, which is good. I note that they are marked as coming from Reading, Pennsylvania, as did the old Bill's. Is this, in fact, the case?


----------



## FLMike

JLibourel said:


> Interesting this thread was just revived. I just bought two pairs of Bill's khakis--Original Twill in British Khaki, Vintage Twill in Olive (M1 fit, of course). As far as I could tell, they were indistinguishable from the old Bill's, which is good.* I note that they are marked as coming from Reading, Pennsylvania, as did the old Bill's.* Is this, in fact, the case?


Actually, the old Bills were cut and sewn in a factory in Virginia. The Bills corporate offices were in Reading, but not the manufacturing. I don't know what's going on with the brand currently. I kind of lost track/interest.


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## 89826

What may have happened is that the firm (merchant bank) which had lent Bills Khakis money and then became owners because of a default event used a strategy cynical as hell.

Think about this. The firm was trying to recoup as much of its investment as possible. It no doubt had no interest in running (for the long term) a clothing company that sold khakis. So to make the quickest buck possible while capatilizing on the brand Bill Thomas built, it made cheap clothing quickly overseas to sell here before the brand equity and goodwill were completely destroyed. A cynical grab to squeeze some profits before it washed its hands.

Then a real buyer came along who wants to operate the business. I bet the new owners are talking to Bill Thomas about coming home.


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## eagle2250

^^What!
Bill Thomas coming home? As a betting man, I wouldn't put my money on that eventually coming to pass. Sorry.


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## JLibourel

^^I can't imagine there was much "goodwill" left, among retailers anyway, after the new ownership liquidated the existing inventory at giveaway prices.


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## smmrfld

89826 said:


> I bet the new owners are talking to Bill Thomas about coming home.


Why? To drive it right back into the ground? :icon_scratch:


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## 89826

smmrfld said:


> Why? To drive it right back into the ground? :icon_scratch:


Hmmm, let's see. Thomas started the company in 1990. It grew relatively smoothly for 20 + years under his control. He decided to take on investors (easy to guess why, but not so relevant to this). There was massive expansion, financed and driven by the new investors. As a condition of their investment, the new investors exerted substantial influence if not had control. Things went bad.

Yet Thomas drove it into the ground?


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## August West

89826 said:


> Hmmm, let's see. Thomas started the company in 1990. It grew relatively smoothly for 20 + years under his control. *He decided to take on investors* (easy to guess why, but not so relevant to this). There was massive expansion, financed and driven by the new investors. As a condition of their investment, the new investors exerted substantial influence if not had control. Things went bad.
> 
> Yet Thomas drove it into the ground?


Your post confuses me. You've explained exactly why it's his fault, if this is in fact how things transpired.


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## smmrfld

89826 said:


> Yet Thomas drove it into the ground?


Yup.


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## 89826

August West said:


> Your post confuses me. You've explained exactly why it's his fault, if this is in fact how things transpired.


Taking on investors was his decision, assuming he was not forced into it-- not being squeezed to death for capital. Was that a mistake? Surely no one involved is happy at the outcome. Thomas lost his baby and the pe types surely lost money. A fire-sale liquidation is rarely profitable.

Why did he take on investors? Easy to surmise. He built a fairly well-known company (in certain circles) yet probably wasn't making that much money. If the company were selling 20,000 pairs of khakis a year (seems like a lot to me) at $125 per pair, that is revenues of $2.5 million for the clothing-store retailers. 100% markup for the retailers means gross revenues (not profit) for Bills Khakis of $1.25 million.

Nobody was getting rich despite all the hard work. He was tired of being squeezed for capital.

The pe types show up and say we can help you grow- you have a great idea and product here (American-made khakis and other American-made clothes). We'll expand and start selling directly- cut out the middleman and double profits. It will increase the prominence of the brand, and your original retailers will benefit too.

Generally they are only willing to invest if they have very substantial input. That's part of their rap- that they will bring their vast expertise to bear. They are not silent investors.

It's pretty clear that promoting American manufacturing of clothes was very important to Thomas. No doubt the prospect of seeing his baby really grow was intoxicating. Surely everybody was talking about how much money they were going to make and how much good they were going to do by using only American suppliers. Hard to resist that.

Money was flowing in his business finally, after 20 years. It didn't end well, but often it doesn't.


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## xcubbies

There's an awful lot of conjecture in this thread, and very few actual facts.


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## Charles Dana

xcubbies said:


> There's an awful lot of conjecture in this thread, and very few actual facts.


Precisely. But then, people--like nature--abhor a vacuum. When we don't know the facts, we tend to speculate (i.e., make up stuff) to fill in the empty spaces. Some of the faux-facts we come up with are fanciful, some--based on reasonable analyses of available evidence--are highly plausible deductions.

As far as we outside observers are concerned, what actually caused The Great Fall of Bills Khakis will remain a matter of speculation until Bill Thomas publishes his memoirs or some business professor or MBA student publishes a thoroughly-researched case study.

(A while back in this thread, when people were wondering if Bills Khakis was getting ready to go out of business altogether, I indicated that it was not planning to do that. That was no guess--I had contacted a senior executive with intimate knowledge of what was going on inside that company, and he gave me the go-ahead to state that.

If I really tried, I could tease out what actually happened with Bills Khakis, but I'm not interested enough to take the time to do so. If somebody else would like to do that--do research and gather real evidence--that would be great.)


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## swils8610

Sadly they were my favorite pants in fit and quality. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## JLibourel

swils8610 said:


> Sadly they were my favorite pants in fit and quality.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well, since the pants are back and, as far as I can tell, much the same as they ever were, that should be a considerable consolation to you. I do, however, miss some of the color options like "bourbon" and "mushroom" that were formerly available, especially bourbon. Wish they'd revive the "Bullard Twill," however. I think if I had bought four pairs of those (instead of only one), I shouldn't have needed any other casual pants for the rest of my days.


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## LowEndTheory

89826 said:


> Taking on investors was his decision, assuming he was not forced into it-- not being squeezed to death for capital. Was that a mistake? Surely no one involved is happy at the outcome. Thomas lost his baby and the pe types surely lost money. A fire-sale liquidation is rarely profitable.
> 
> Why did he take on investors? Easy to surmise. He built a fairly well-known company (in certain circles) yet probably wasn't making that much money. If the company were selling 20,000 pairs of khakis a year (seems like a lot to me) at $125 per pair, that is revenues of $2.5 million for the clothing-store retailers. 100% markup for the retailers means gross revenues (not profit) for Bills Khakis of $1.25 million.
> 
> Nobody was getting rich despite all the hard work. He was tired of being squeezed for capital.
> 
> The pe types show up and say we can help you grow- you have a great idea and product here (American-made khakis and other American-made clothes). We'll expand and start selling directly- cut out the middleman and double profits. It will increase the prominence of the brand, and your original retailers will benefit too.
> 
> Generally they are only willing to invest if they have very substantial input. That's part of their rap- that they will bring their vast expertise to bear. They are not silent investors.
> 
> It's pretty clear that promoting American manufacturing of clothes was very important to Thomas. No doubt the prospect of seeing his baby really grow was intoxicating. Surely everybody was talking about how much money they were going to make and how much good they were going to do by using only American suppliers. Hard to resist that.
> 
> Money was flowing in his business finally, after 20 years. It didn't end well, but often it doesn't.


Shareholders/VCs/investors usually don't care much about the product; they care about maximum ROI. That often ends up cutting the lifespan of a company/brand pretty significantly.

I remember when Isaac Mizrahi was a high-end, in-demand designer, but once he sold his name to Target, well...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Robert Patrick

JLibourel said:


> Well, since the pants are back and, as far as I can tell, much the same as they ever were...


I recently ordered 2 pairs of Bill's - an M1 and an M2 (flat front) of the Original Twill in basic khaki color, hemmed them and have now worn them both twice as of this past week. Regarding changes from their early days, as far as I can tell the pattern, fit and construction are unchanged.

What I believe _has_ changed is either the fabric selection or the stone-washing process. Both pairs of khakis I got from the new Bill's are noticeably rougher feeling on the surface of the fabric than older pairs I have. Also, previously it was not uncommon to detect a small amount of sand in the pockets of Bill's - the new ones did not have this. So either they are using a cheaper cloth with a rougher finish or they have canned the stone-washing to save money - or both.

The roughness is not too offensive and weight of the cloth is still substantial so overall I am satisfied with the new Bill's. IMHO for a pair of American-made trousers they are not bad but nothing I would go out and stock up on either.

HTH,
Rob


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## AldenPyle

Robert Patrick said:


> I recently ordered 2 pairs of Bill's - an M1 and an M2 (flat front) of the Original Twill in basic khaki color, hemmed them and have now worn them both twice as of this past week. Regarding changes from their early days, as far as I can tell the pattern, fit and construction are unchanged.
> 
> What I believe _has_ changed is either the fabric selection or the stone-washing process. Both pairs of khakis I got from the new Bill's are noticeably rougher feeling on the surface of the fabric than older pairs I have. Also, previously it was not uncommon to detect a small amount of sand in the pockets of Bill's - the new ones did not have this. So either they are using a cheaper cloth with a rougher finish or they have canned the stone-washing to save money - or both.
> 
> The roughness is not too offensive and weight of the cloth is still substantial so overall I am satisfied with the new Bill's. IMHO for a pair of American-made trousers they are not bad but nothing I would go out and stock up on either.
> 
> HTH,
> Rob


10 years ago, people here used to complain about the new stone washing process and pine for the original non-stone washed Bills


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## Maximus Johnson

Anon 18th Cent. said:


> Here is my two-bit analysis. The new owners are money guys- financial types. They are unlikely to have any interest in building and running a clothing company. In their eyes, the old Bills model failed. (Even though their actions probably caused the failure. But they could never admit that to themselves.)
> 
> What was the old model? A clothing company hell bent on making khakis and later middle-market clothes in the US. Bill Thomas was the animating force for that. He is out of the picture now, so there is a snowball's chance in hell that the new company will want to make clothes in the US. Too expensive. So that means almost starting from scratch.
> 
> Soon enough the new owners will figure out that the Bills Khakis brand is not powerful enough to carry forward a new effort which has lost its founder and his vision.


Apparently, the Bill's Khakis brand is powerful enough to sustain it's place in the market. Here it is, July of 2018, and Bill's Khakis continues to manufacture their namesake and premier product, khaki pants, in Pennsylvania. Let's just hope they continue. I, for one, would discontinue purchasing Bill's Khakis if they were manufactured offshore.


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## 89826

Bill Thomas is now leading the re-launch of Duck Head. Its website says the clothes are imported, though. Maybe that will change.


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## FLMike

89826 said:


> Bill Thomas is now leading the launch of Duck Head.


What do you mean, the launch of Duck Head? You mean the re- re- re-launch of Duck Head?


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## 89826

Mike, I had edited my post before I saw yours.

I looked at the Bills website for the first time in a long time. A lot looks the same or very similar. Imagine what it must feel like for Bill Thomas to see his baby with his name in someone else's hands.


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## TweedyDon

If you'd like a pair of the ORIGINAL Bill's, I have several coming to the Thrift Exchange soon, in sizes 37 and 38! (Check out my Facebook page *WaterhollowTweed* for a preview this evening!  )


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