# I'm, uh, starting to lose my faith



## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

What sort of creatures occupy this planet?


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## capitalart (Apr 2, 2007)

Unbelievable, i cant believe what people are capable of doing now adays.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

This type of occurrence, while sickening, has been going on for as long as there have been humans. I am afraid it will probably go on as long as there is humans too.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

When Liberals preach "tolerance," remember this case.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Liberty Ship said:


> When Liberals preach "tolerance," remember this case.


Okay, Liberty Ship: Find me one liberal who preaches that we should tolerate the torture of this young woman.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Dump all five of them into the river near Alton.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Laxplayer said:


> Dump all five of them into the river near Alton.


They better be wearing cement shoes.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

It bugs the hell out of me--these individuals decided to do this. They did it, not "humanity" or the human race or civilization or anybody else.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

brokencycle said:


> They better be wearing cement shoes.


From the Clark bridge...even if they survived the fall, they'd never make it to shore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2006-09-05_3000x1700_alton_clark_bridge.jpg


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

jackmccullough said:


> Okay, Liberty Ship: Find me one liberal who preaches that we should tolerate the torture of this young woman.


Jack, would you support the death penalty for this case? I think many would not.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

An early design flaw led to several Liberty ships breaking in half with great loss of life. The simple fix was a reinforcing band of steel welded along each midsection. I think a strip of duct tape will solve our current namesake's problem.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Kav said:


> An early design flaw led to several Liberty ships breaking in half with great loss of life. The simple fix was a reinforcing band of steel welded along each midsection. I think a strip of duct tape will solve our current namesake's problem.


[email protected]!


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## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> This type of occurrence, while sickening, has been going on for as long as there have been humans. I am afraid it will probably go on as long as there is humans too.


.

+1. For all our supposed "Achievements" there are many things that the human race should be ashamed of. People can have equal ability for evil as they can for compassion.

Never underestimate the human ability for stupidity and self destruction.

I've heard the argument that technology is to blame. If we were all still in the "horse & Cart" era or even earlier where just about from dawn to dusk our main concerns were just getting enough food to eat and having a warm and safe place to sleep then we'd be too busy and tired to get up to mischief. Technology has enabled us to not need each other any more and adversely effects the concept of working together and needing others in mutually beneficial ways.

Mychael


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I feel bad the way this girl died,You got a bunch of heartless people nowadays.


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## a4audi08 (Apr 27, 2007)

Liberty Ship said:


> When Liberals preach "tolerance," remember this case.


You are an ass. I'm sorry if that offends anyone and understand if I get banned.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Reading that article and realizing that these acts of inhumanity really do occur, leaves me indescribably saddened. The perps are not humans...they don't even qualify as animals.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Nasty folks, indeed. For perspective, let's remember that about 299,000,000 Americans have not done that to someone this year.

The only reason I don't like the death penalty is because I totally distrust the apparatus used to decide who is guilty and not guilty and who lives or dies. Some victims are totally railroaded by political pressure and/or the desire of police/prosecutors to advance their careers. Some clever and/or rich criminals totally escape punishment for miserably horrible crimes.

This system has no business condemning ANYONE to death.

Life in an unpleasant prison is fine by me, though and I hope that if these 5 people did it, it happens to all of them. (At least if someone is proven innocent, they can be let out. Too many guilty people are executed and that can't be reversed.)

Let 'em rot in prison.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Jack, would you support the death penalty for this case? I think many would not.


It's easy to have the gut reaction that the people who did this deserve death, and I can certainly relate to that impulse. And if not this crime, then everyone can come up with a list of crimes for which death is the fitting impulse: for instance, carrying out the 2001 terrorist attacks, or torturing and beheading Daniel Pearl.

A more fundamental question is whether we should have a system in which the government deals out death to certain people. This is particularly relevant when we see that it is, or seems to be, impossible to create such a system that will levy the ultimate penalty fairly, without regard to racial and other biases, and accurately.

A further question is whether revenge, however you term it, is a legitimate aim of the criminal justice system. If you conclude that death is the fitting penalty for murder, how far do you go? Torture for torture? Burning for arson? Amputation for amputation? Rape for rape? People instinctively see proportionality as a legitimate consideration, and I agree that it is, but a few minutes' thought demonstrates that most of us do not want the kind of society that allows itself to engage in the most depraved behavior people can imagine and inflict on each other.

So as tempting as it is to say that I'd like to see these people killed, I would answer that I do not support a system of capital punishment, even though that means that in some occasions our society will not treat criminals as badly as they have treated others.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

jackmccullough said:


> It's easy to have the gut reaction that the people who did this deserve death, and I can certainly relate to that impulse. And if not this crime, then everyone can come up with a list of crimes for which death is the fitting impulse: for instance, carrying out the 2001 terrorist attacks, or torturing and beheading Daniel Pearl.
> 
> A more fundamental question is whether we should have a system in which the government deals out death to certain people. This is particularly relevant when we see that it is, or seems to be, impossible to create such a system that will levy the ultimate penalty fairly, without regard to racial and other biases, and accurately.
> 
> ...


Even though I disagree, I have to admit that's consistent and as long as you can live by it, so be it. The only problem I see is I would substitute "society" for "the government" as the one dealing out death to people, but that is a mere quibble.

My own reaction would be quite a bit more vicious. I actually thought about what I would do as I read the "throw them in the river" comment; as that seems disconnected to me.

I had a great idea too ... perhaps not PG enough for this forum.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

jackmccullough said:


> It's easy to have the gut reaction that the people who did this deserve death, and I can certainly relate to that impulse. And if not this crime, then everyone can come up with a list of crimes for which death is the fitting impulse: for instance, carrying out the 2001 terrorist attacks, or torturing and beheading Daniel Pearl.
> 
> A more fundamental question is whether we should have a system in which the government deals out death to certain people. This is particularly relevant when we see that it is, or seems to be, impossible to create such a system that will levy the ultimate penalty fairly, without regard to racial and other biases, and accurately.
> 
> ...


I'm with you.

Though life in an unpleasant prison sounds like a good punishment, how many prisons are really that unpleasant?

I think prison sounds awful not because it's prison, but because of the people who surround you... but these folks sound like they'll fit right in.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Society is always plagued by monsters so beyond redemption the natural gut reaction is to destroy them utterly. the problem with capital punishment, is it does not deter crime, is not fairly meted out and most important: we have a nasty habit of convicting innocent people. The last one is easily resolved. Should a executed person be later found innocent, the prosecuting attorney, judge, jury, presiding attorney general will also be executed in like manner.


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## XdryMartini (Jan 5, 2008)

Biblical justice would favor using those 5 for target practice for soldiers and Marines practicing with their rifles before deploying overseas!! :devil:


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## etp777 (Nov 27, 2007)

Hang them high, and make it hurt. 'Nuff said.

Sadly, liberal state like IL is unlikely to do that.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I hadn't noticed it was lllinois. I don't know if it's still in effect,but it was the Republican governor of Illinois who instituted a death penalty moratorium a few years ago when the ratio of executions to condemned people released because they were innocent approached one-one.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Believe it or not you all rub shoulders with those kinds of people nearly every day. They serve their jail time and then they are out, if not sooner. These kind of people work in every kind of occupation you can think of. Everyday how many felons are let out of prison? What about the thousands that are never caught and "law enforcement" is not even looking for? 

Here is a story for you to think about. When in High School in the early 70's this 14 year old boy (one of my peers) didn't show up for two weeks. When he came to school he was black and blue over every part of his body that showed. Not one black and blue mark was father apart from another than 1/4". And a busted leg. For four years he came to school with busted legs and arms and multiple busted legs and arms, and alway black and blue after these beatings. Local police, sheriff, prosecutor could care less and did nothing to help. Probably half these people that were involved with these beatings had no "police" record. Some of these creeps teach school, are "police", pastors, bankers, etc. Like I said you probably rub shoulders with some of these people and don't even know it.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

BertieW said:


> What sort of creatures occupy this planet?
> 
> I hope this doesn't come across wrong, but this is why we don't place our faith in man, but in God.
> 
> All men will fail in one way or another, at one time or another. Some just much more spectacularly and/or horrifically than others.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

WA said:


> Believe it or not you all rub shoulders with those kinds of people nearly every day. They serve their jail time and then they are out, if not sooner. These kind of people work in every kind of occupation you can think of. Everyday how many felons are let out of prison? What about the thousands that are never caught and "law enforcement" is not even looking for?
> 
> Here is a story for you to think about. When in High School in the early 70's this 14 year old boy (one of my peers) didn't show up for two weeks. When he came to school he was black and blue over every part of his body that showed. Not one black and blue mark was father apart from another than 1/4". And a busted leg. For four years he came to school with busted legs and arms and multiple busted legs and arms, and alway black and blue after these beatings. Local police, sheriff, prosecutor could care less and did nothing to help. Probably half these people that were involved with these beatings had no "police" record. Some of these creeps teach school, are "police", pastors, bankers, etc. Like I said you probably rub shoulders with some of these people and don't even know it.


So, what did you do about it? They don't have telephone service and haven't heard of the FBI where you live?


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Relayer said:


> BertieW said:
> 
> 
> > What sort of creatures occupy this planet?
> ...


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

It's fantastic. 

Man(kind), on the other hand, disappoints me often.


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## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

Relayer said:


> BertieW said:
> 
> 
> > What sort of creatures occupy this planet?
> ...


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> Relayer said:
> 
> 
> > How's that working out so far?
> ...


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

My Father has just been diagnosed after being admitted into the ER with post-myocarditis induced arrhythmia and a resting heart rate of 137 with low ejection fraction. After 12 hours of treatment he is down into a range of 120-126 bpm. Apparently, he has 10-12 more hours to see if the treatment can get him down under 100 bpm so they can give him treatment for the arrhythmia or they are going to go the electric shock route. He otherwise is in absolutely perfect health. He will be 61 in June. I mean absolutely perfect health. He doesn't even drink soda. They say he would already be dead if he wasn't in such great health overall and had the physical strength from having worked out his entire life. EKGs and everything else are totally clear except for the ejection fraction. They say he has no clots and has not had a heart attack. He actually walked on the treadmill for 40 minutes Saturday evening after giving a lecture all day because he was feeling fatigued and thought he just had jet lag or altitude sickness before he went to the ER unable to breathe. His travel schedule the last month has been Orlando, Geneva, Orlando, Bangkok, Orlando, Geneva, Orlando, Ethiopia, Orlando, Washington. So, who knows what virus he picked up that caused the original myocarditis. Fortunately, his travelling has been because he's working with the WHO right now and was out there addressing a bunch of doctors that know everyone in the hospital. The soonest we can get out there is Tuesday and they are expecting either a worst case or best case scenario by Monday at the latest. They say he will actually be released by Tuesday in the best case scenario.

My Easter morning started with a wake up phone call that said, "Hi son, I wouldn't be being a good Father if I didn't call and tell you that your Daddy loves you while I have the chance."

Y'all can argue faith all you want, but if those with faith would stop and send a little his way I would sure appreciate it. Thanks.

My faith is a little shakey at the moment to be completely honest. Happy Easter.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

That's terrible. I hope his good physical condition and the excellent medical care available to him will carry him through. You have my best wishes.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

ksinc said:


> ... if those with faith would stop and send a little his way I would sure appreciate it. Thanks.


You've got it, ksinc, a prayer for you both.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

ksinc said:


> My Father has just been diagnosed after being admitted into the ER with post-myocarditis induced arrhythmia and a resting heart rate of 137 with low ejection fraction. After 12 hours of treatment he is down into a range of 120-126 bpm. Apparently, he has 10-12 more hours to see if the treatment can get him down under 100 bpm so they can give him treatment for the arrhythmia or they are going to go the electric shock route. He otherwise is in absolutely perfect health. He will be 61 in June. I mean absolutely perfect health. He doesn't even drink soda. They say he would already be dead if he wasn't in such great health overall and had the physical strength from having worked out his entire life. EKGs and everything else are totally clear except for the ejection fraction. They say he has no clots and has not had a heart attack. He actually walked on the treadmill for 40 minutes Saturday evening after giving a lecture all day because he was feeling fatigued and thought he just had jet lag or altitude sickness before he went to the ER unable to breathe. His travel schedule the last month has been Orlando, Geneva, Orlando, Bangkok, Orlando, Geneva, Orlando, Ethiopia, Orlando, Washington. So, who knows what virus he picked up that caused the original myocarditis. Fortunately, his travelling has been because he's working with the WHO right now and was out there addressing a bunch of doctors that know everyone in the hospital. The soonest we can get out there is Tuesday and they are expecting either a worst case or best case scenario by Monday at the latest. They say he will actually be released by Tuesday in the best case scenario.
> 
> My Easter morning started with a wake up phone call that said, "Hi son, I wouldn't be being a good Father if I didn't call and tell you that your Daddy loves you while I have the chance."
> 
> ...


I wish your Father a speedy recovery.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Sending some good thoughts to you and your dad bud.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Thank You for the thoughts and prayers.

In the morning he is going to have the electrical shock procedure and the doctors say by 11:30 am we should know if his heartbeat is corrected.

Since acorns don't fall far from trees; we figure if it comes down to pure orneryness he will pull through


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Thank You for the thoughts and prayers.
> 
> In the morning he is going to have the electrical shock procedure and the doctors say by 11:30 am we should know if his heartbeat is corrected.
> 
> Since acorns don't fall far from trees; we figure if it comes down to pure orneryness he will pull through


KSINC, Wishing your dad and the family all the best. Hope he makes a full and speedy recovery. Keep us posted.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

I just saw this, ksinc. My thoughts and prayers will be with your dad and your family. Take care.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Laxplayer said:


> Dump all five of them into the river near Alton.


I'm all for waiving due process on this one. Do I hear a second?


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

BertieW said:


> KSINC, Wishing your dad and the family all the best. Hope he makes a full and speedy recovery. Keep us posted.


Same here...all my best for him, you and your family.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Ksinc: So sorry to learn of your Dad's medical challenges. You, your family and particularly your father, are in my thoughts and prayers. May he have a speedy recovery and may your peace of mind be restored.

Take care, Chuck


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Good luck to your father, Ksinc!!


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

ksinc, all my best for your Dad's recovery.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

We are a nation of laws. And if the law calls for the death penalty in this instance then I will be ok with it. It would be nice to leave the penalty phase to God, but he put us on this earth to govern ourselves.


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## XdryMartini (Jan 5, 2008)

Ksinc,

My thoughts and prayers are there for your dad, you and your family. His attitde is very important in helping him get through this. It happened to my dad 20 years ago and tenacity is what got him through it... 

Bill


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

KSinc Hope your father recovers well.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Thanks again to everyone. Today was not as good as we hoped, but the longterm view is still supposed to be good. They did the echocardiogram and then waved-off the electric shock recalibration. So, we are going to be on pins and needles a bit longer.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Hope your father gets well. He seems a bit young for these sort of problems. 

Keep up the Faith.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

ksinc said:


> Thanks again to everyone. Today was not as good as we hoped, but the longterm view is still supposed to be good. They did the echocardiogram and then waved-off the electric shock recalibration. So, we are going to be on pins and needles a bit longer.


So how much longer do you think this'll take?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Howard said:


> So how much longer do you think this'll take?


Well, they found a small clot so they say they think it will be around three months before he can be shocked.

In the short term they think his bpm can be down around 80 in a few days.

They said that lots of people walk around with arrhythmias and never even know it so he would feel at least 90% for those three months, but would not probably be able to tell any difference than 100%.

At the moment he's still too weak to sit up and he is around 115 bpm with less than 50% use of his heart.

So they have at least three things they are treating with drugs now: the fluid retention from the myocarditis that is putting the pressure on his heart, the heart rate itself, and now the clot with blood thinners.

The best case scenario I have heard now is one to two weeks in the hospital, then come home and rest for 2-3 months and hope he can have the shock. If all that goes well he should never notice a difference and be back to 99-100%. The previous best case scenario had him checking out of the hospital at 5pm today after recalibration and 24 hours of being watched.

The worst case scenario remains that with the EF in the 20s if he goes into cardiac arrest he has like a 0-1% chance to survive it. Now with the clot he has a stroke risk if he is defibrillated, but they are saying if it wasn't lose already it probably won't break loose on its own. With how weak he is they say even a small stroke or heart attack would be lethal. Basically, if he has a heart attack he won't make it without a defibrillator which they pretty much know will break the clot loose and cause him to have a stroke. Lose-Lose.

As long as he stays where he is and his heart rate continues to come down, his EF will go up, and he has no immediate risks.

Seems like BS to me, but that's the story. 24 hours ago they were telling us he had no clots or anything and this one was sort of hiding in a shadow or something. They said it was "behind his heart"; and I said so is that IN his heart or BEHIND his heart and they said it's IN his heart; in a pocket in the upper chamber of his heart. When I asked so what does "BEHIND his heart mean" I got a real non-linear answer. It doesn't matter the bottom line is: he has a clot in his heart.


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

Liberty Ship said:


> When Liberals preach "tolerance," remember this case.


Here, here!


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

The Louche said:


> Here, here!


I'll repeat my comment to Liberty Ship, which has gone unanswered since Friday: Find me one liberal who preaches that we should tolerate the torture of this young woman.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Well, this thread has certainly wandered a bit, so I don't think I'll feel too bad making some random comments. 

First, the vermin that killed this woman are not human. These are humanoid. They need to be eradicated and I see no problem with society doing so. I would like to know "for sure" that someone committed a crime that warrants the death penalty. I think that is a flaw with our system, but I believe society has the right to execute those who are a menace. It's pretty simple, live in our world, play by our rules, get caught, pay the price.

Secondly, I don't really see any point in placing faith in God or man. Man screws up all the time and God nasty stuff like screw with ksinc's dad's heart. Based on the Bible's own definitions of reward for good and punishment for evil, this makes no sense. If God actually followed what he allegedly wrote down for us to follow, Charles Manson would have died of natural causes years ago.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

ksinc said:


> Well, they found a small clot so they say they think it will be around three months before he can be shocked.
> 
> In the short term they think his bpm can be down around 80 in a few days.
> 
> ...


I do wish him all my very best.


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