# Bombay/Mumbai Attacked



## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

...some people are just ANIMALS.

A women's and children's hospital was targeted. 

I just read a wonderful piece on Sufism (mystical Islam) in the latest Smithsonian...in Pakistan, they outnumber radicals 25-1, yet these islamists seem to be able to continue to exist.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

That's too bad


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

"Religion of Peace" alert.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Beresford said:


> "Religion of Peace" alert.


Religion alert.

.


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Religion alert.
> 
> .


To think we've come so far as a civilization, people, and race (the human one) in the past thousands of years yet we still murder in the name of what is essentially organized superstition. No religion is immune to this as they all have plenty of whack jobs who are willing to kill.


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

*The pressure is on..*

Americans and Britons specifically targeted. This is Obama's first big test.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Mad Hatter said:


> Americans and Britons specifically targeted. This is Obama's first big test.


And nearly two months before he can do much about it.

.


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## a4audi08 (Apr 27, 2007)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> And nearly two months before he can do much about it.
> 
> .


if he acts, he's presumptuous. if he doesn't, he's dithering as the world burns.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

rgrossicone said:


> To think we've come so far as a civilization, people, and race (the human one) in the past thousands of years yet we still murder in the name of what is essentially organized superstition. *No religion is immune to this as they all have plenty of whack jobs who are willing to kill.*


Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to infiltrate the local Lutheran church to keep an eye on them.


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to infiltrate the local Lutheran church to keep an eye on them.


I wasn't worried too much about them, its those fickle non-denominational Christians that make me quake.

Sorry if that comment wasn't broad enough for you, what was meant by it was that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other general religious group has its sects that use its basic principles to incite and promote violence and hate.

If only people remembered that religion is just there to answer what science can not, and tried not to take it so seriously.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

a4audi08 said:


> if he acts, he's presumptuous. if he doesn't, he's dithering as the world burns.


Wouldn't want to call the guy who told the Iraqis not to deal with the present administration _before he was even elected _presumptuous. And "change.gov--the official website of the president elect." Nice!

And using this as an excuse to bash all religion is just pathetic. Why not just say this is what colored people do?


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Why not just say this is what colored people do?


Is it? And are you saying that it is?

(I assume the sitting President has pardoned you for Thanksgiving. Next November might be different. :icon_smile_wink


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> And nearly two months before he can do much about it.


Yes and no. I'm aware of when he takes office officially. al-Q is looking past GWB and to what BHO said he'd do about the military in the ME.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Since Obama is setting himself up for a third Clinton presidency, if I want a pardon I guess I'll have to engage in left-wing terrorism or give Hillary's brother a lot of money.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Since Obama is setting himself up for a third Clinton presidency, if I want a pardon I guess I'll have to engage in left-wing terrorism or give Hillary's brother a lot of money.


Touché, PD! 
No harm no fowl. :icon_smile_wink:

.


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## a4audi08 (Apr 27, 2007)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Wouldn't want to call the guy who told the Iraqis not to deal with the present administration _before he was even elected _presumptuous. And "change.gov--the official website of the president elect." Nice!
> 
> And using this as an excuse to bash all religion is just pathetic. Why not just say this is what colored people do?


here is how the washington times - a publication that is definitely not known for having a liberal bias, reported on your allegations.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/10/obama-sought-to-sway-iraqis-on-bush-deal/

i don't see, and neither did anyone else except for bush apologists, anything wrong with obama's contacts with the iraqi government.

as far as change.gov, what is the problem?

finally, i dont know that i bashed religion, but to argue that violent religious fanaticism only exists, or existed, among muslims, is simply false.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

pt4u67 said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to infiltrate the local Lutheran church to keep an eye on them.


You won't be able to do it, any real Lutheran can spot a non-Lutheran. You will inevitably make a small error only detectable to Lutherans like sitting in the front of the church, saying the Apostle's Creed wrong, not checking the "receiving Communion" box on the attendance sheet etc.
Besides, the Lutheran mafia is watching. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> You won't be able to do it, any real Lutheran can spot a non-Lutheran. You will inevitably make a small error only detectable to Lutherans like sitting in the front of the church, saying the Apostle's Creed wrong, not checking the "receiving Communion" box on the attendance sheet etc.
> Besides, the Lutheran mafia is watching. :icon_smile_wink:


They'll spot you in a second if you hesitate when they ask you what kind of casserole you're bringing to the potluck. (Sorry, I must disclose I'm actually a Presby, but my son goes to a Lutheran high school.)


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Beresford said:


> They'll spot you in a second if you hesitate when they ask you what kind of casserole you're bringing to the potluck. (Sorry, I must disclose I'm actually a Presby, but my son goes to a Lutheran high school.)


I could tell you were not a Lutheran by your use of casserole..it's a hotdish don'tcha know. :icon_smile_big:


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## Terpoxon (Sep 28, 2006)

rgrossicone said:


> To think we've come so far as a civilization, people, and race (the human one) in the past thousands of years yet we still murder in the name of what is essentially organized superstition. No religion is immune to this as they all have plenty of whack jobs who are willing to kill.


Religion is just an excuse. People like this kill because they are intolerant of difference. If it wasn't religion it would be something else. Dr. Seuss got it right in the Butter Battle Book.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

rgrossicone said:


> I wasn't worried too much about them, its those fickle non-denominational Christians that make me quake.
> 
> Sorry if that comment wasn't broad enough for you, what was meant by it was that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other general religious group has its sects that use its basic principles to incite and promote violence and hate.
> 
> If only people remembered that religion is just there to answer what science can not, and tried not to take it so seriously.


This is the secularist progressives wet dream; that all religions are the same and all incite violence to some degree or another so we should not single out a violent religion such as Islam for repudiation. I must say it is among the most ridiculous and naive points of view that are floating in the ether.

In the last 50 years, I would argue that Islamic terrorism has claimed more lives and has led to more misery for Muslims than anything the civilized religions have done. There maybe the occasional crackpot Christian who thinks it is his duty to blow up an abortion clinic, but this is not mainstream thought. I don't see pictures of these people gracing church halls in the United States. I don't see people rallying in the streets holding up pictures of these people and naming their children after them as do Arabs in Gaza, the West Bank and other God forsaken corners of the Arab/Muslim world.

There is something fundamentally rotten at the core of Islam that needs to be carved out. The culture and these countries have not found a way to modernize themselves. If religion is at the root of a civilization, and I believe it is, then the evidence speaks for itself. There is no reason why Muslim countries cannot thrive economically and culturally.

I just saw a report this morning that Malaysia has banned Yoga because they are afraid that it will corrupt Muslims. I am confident that this, in a nutshell, describes the state of Islam and Islamic countries. By the way, Malaysia is supposed to be a "moderate" Islamic country.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> You won't be able to do it, any real Lutheran can spot a non-Lutheran. You will inevitably make a small error only detectable to Lutherans like sitting in the front of the church, saying the Apostle's Creed wrong, not checking the "receiving Communion" box on the attendance sheet etc.
> Besides, the Lutheran mafia is watching. :icon_smile_wink:


Oh man! I guess I'll need to do some homework before I dive in.:icon_smile_big:


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> In the last 50 years, I would argue that Islamic terrorism has claimed more lives and has led to more misery for Muslims than anything the civilized religions have done. There maybe the occasional crackpot Christian who thinks it is his duty to blow up an abortion clinic, but this is not mainstream thought.


I think this is a valid argument, but a narrow minded one. By not looking at the history of repression in the Middle East, from Napoleon in Egypt, through the Rush-Bagot Pact, Balfour Docs, Israel's creation (and please no anti-Semetic assertatuions here, my wife is Jewish), through the War on "Terror", and specifically the economic fallout for the *people* of those regions would be neglectful.

Do you honestly believe that people, in the numbers that they do now, would be willing to kill themselves for faith alone? Its desperation that makes most of these people believe what they do is right, and their only way "out". Just like those Christian nutters, sure there are some purely religious zealots, but the combination of imperialist foreign policies of the West draws from a wider base of people who become willing to commit these atrocities.

But back to my original point, these superstitious ideals from religion, whose *sole *purpose throughout history, has been to answer the unanswerable, gives people the excuse to act on their unfortunate circumstances. Does religion provide some good things? Sure, but I believe our morals are more due to human decency, and are inherent in our souls and persons, not from what some persuaders preach from a pulpit.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

rgrossicone said:


> I think this is a valid argument, but a narrow minded one. By not looking at the history of repression in the Middle East, from Napoleon in Egypt, through the Rush-Bagot Pact, Balfour Docs, Israel's creation (and please no anti-Semetic assertatuions here, my wife is Jewish), through the War on "Terror", and specifically the economic fallout for the *people* of those regions would be neglectful.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that people, in the numbers that they do now, would be willing to kill themselves for faith alone? Its desperation that makes most of these people believe what they do is right, and their only way "out". Just like those Christian nutters, sure there are some purely religious zealots, but the combination of imperialist foreign policies of the West draws from a wider base of people who become willing to commit these atrocities.
> 
> But back to my original point, these superstitious ideals from religion, whose *sole *purpose throughout history, has been to answer the unanswerable, gives people the excuse to act on their unfortunate circumstances. Does religion provide some good things? Sure, but I believe our morals are more due to human decency, and are inherent in our souls and persons, not from what some persuaders preach from a pulpit.


There is the world you wish existed and then there is the world that exists. Yours is the former! Your living in a fantasy world occupied by yourself and perhaps frequented by Noam Chomsky. All this talk of imperialism....where is it? I've seen nothing but the west drawing away from their former colonies. They have gone out of their way to not interfere and only try to help. Who is the first to come to their aid when a disaster strikes and their own feeble and corrupt governments either cannot or will not render assistance.

The countries of the Middle East are quite rich in natural resources, as are the African nations, yet they cannot seem to thrive. Why is it that Australia is able to, isolated as it is from the rest of the world and with an inhospitable interior. All your talk about Christian "nutters" is simply refuted by fact; show me the evidence! You've been reading too much Mother Jones my friend. Pay attention to facts and get out of your bubble.

So go ahead and mock religion and Christianity. Just remember if you were writing this in Saudi Arabia and saying the same thing about Islam you would probably already have a price on your head and the religious police kicking down your door. Happy Thanksgiving. And thank God you live in a Judeo-Christian nation.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Imagine, if you will, moslems slowly becoming a majority in the heart of London.And then one day because of sectarian fighting brought about largley by moslems harrasing the other peoples, Bill Clinton bombs Brighton Beach, the lake Country and Stonehenge on the Queen's Birthday to stop the fighting and then U.N. troops occupy London.
And then in free and open elections, thee moslems declare El Londein a seperate nation.You get a calender from some patriotic british group describing how Big Ben has been dismantled, parisioners trying to attend Matins at the Abbey beaten and forced out of their flats, priests shot and women forced to wear headscarves.
that is EXACTLY what is taking place, unreported, in Kosovo, an ISLAMIC Republic set up in Europe, eastern by western powers. 
Chamberlain lives!


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Kav said:


> ...these moslems declare El Londein a separate nation.


"El Londein," eh? Cute.


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> All this talk of imperialism....where is it? I've seen nothing but the west drawing away from their former colonies.
> 
> 
> > Iraq, Israel, business ventures in Saudi Arabia and Egypt with ties to oppressive regimes in said countries.
> ...


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> All your talk about Christian "nutters" is simply refuted by fact; show me the evidence!


You were the one who mentioned the abortion clinic bombers...I was simply piggybacking on that idea.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

rgrossicone said:


> no wonder we are hated the world 'round.


I read on the Internet that that's changed since we've elected Obama. The world loves us now.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

rgrossicone said:


> You were the one who mentioned the abortion clinic bombers...I was simply piggybacking on that idea.


In the 90's there were perhaps a handful of abortion clinic bombings. If you want to hang your hat on that then your on shaky ground.

As for the "economic imperialism" nonsense, grow up! In your view any trade represents imperialism. Your point of view is devoid of any fact.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

This is terrible,terrorism is striking just about everywhere in this country.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Abortion clinic bombings total @ 279 for the past 30 years. The was eric rudolphs attack resulting in the maiming and death of one clinic staff, and two other shootings of doctors I recall.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Kav said:


> Imagine, if you will, moslems slowly becoming a majority in the heart of London.And then one day because of sectarian fighting brought about largley by moslems harrasing the other peoples, Bill Clinton bombs Brighton Beach, the lake Country and Stonehenge on the Queen's Birthday to stop the fighting and then U.N. troops occupy London.
> And then in free and open elections, thee moslems declare El Londein a seperate nation.You get a calender from some patriotic british group describing how Big Ben has been dismantled, parisioners trying to attend Matins at the Abbey beaten and forced out of their flats, priests shot and women forced to wear headscarves.
> that is EXACTLY what is taking place, unreported, in Kosovo, an ISLAMIC Republic set up in Europe, eastern by western powers.
> Chamberlain lives!


Imagine if you will a million babies a year being "terminated" for convenience...


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

rgrossicone said:


> I think this is a valid argument, but a narrow minded one. By not looking at the history of repression in the Middle East, from Napoleon in Egypt, through the Rush-Bagot Pact, Balfour Docs, Israel's creation (and please no anti-Semetic assertatuions here, my wife is Jewish), through the War on "Terror", and specifically the economic fallout for the *people* of those regions would be neglectful.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that people, in the numbers that they do now, would be willing to kill themselves for faith alone? Its desperation that makes most of these people believe what they do is right, and their only way "out". Just like those Christian nutters, sure there are some purely religious zealots, but the combination of imperialist foreign policies of the West draws from a wider base of people who become willing to commit these atrocities.
> 
> But back to my original point, these superstitious ideals from religion, whose *sole *purpose throughout history, has been to answer the unanswerable, gives people the excuse to act on their unfortunate circumstances. Does religion provide some good things? Sure, but I believe our morals are more due to human decency, and are inherent in our souls and persons, not from what some persuaders preach from a pulpit.


idiiot


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Imagine if you will a million babies a year being "terminated" for convenience...


Imagine if you will a million rogue cells a year being terminated for convenience... Damn oncologists! I'm getting Turkey an, "I break for tumors" bumper sticker for the Winter Solstice - I mean Christmas.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Gosh, I'm really surprised that you don't understand. Shocked.


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## laufer (Feb 20, 2008)

Kav said:


> Imagine, if you will, moslems slowly becoming a majority in the heart of London.And then one day because of sectarian fighting brought about largley by moslems harrasing the other peoples, Bill Clinton bombs Brighton Beach, the lake Country and Stonehenge on the Queen's Birthday to stop the fighting and then U.N. troops occupy London.
> And then in free and open elections, thee moslems declare El Londein a seperate nation.You get a calender from some patriotic british group describing how Big Ben has been dismantled, parisioners trying to attend Matins at the Abbey beaten and forced out of their flats, priests shot and women forced to wear headscarves.
> that is EXACTLY what is taking place, unreported, in Kosovo, an ISLAMIC Republic set up in Europe, eastern by western powers.
> Chamberlain lives!


This is nonsense. While indeed majority of Albanian on Kosovo are muslims there are no laws that forces woman to wear headscarves and Kosovo is not Islamic "republic". In addition problems among Serbians and Albanians on Kosovo are political not religious.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Do you have any idea, any at all how many children are in poverty in ' The wealthiest nation on earth? I'm talking children going to sleep, if they have a roof, hungry.
Do you have any idea how many underage girls are raped, how many of the age NOT to give consent and raped?
Abortion as a casual, sloppy form of birth control is a lie perperated by the same people who turn their backs on the suffering of those same children 5 minutes after birth.
You want to stop an aboortion? Put up a bond to pay for that child's raising until 18 y/o. Put up, or shut up.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

The only lie is the one you're telling to yourself if you believe that, Kav. I guess it's easier than facing reality.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

What do I know? I only visit a serbian church regularly and just spoke with a family who left there.
The historical truth is Eastern Europe has been the crossroads, and in the crosshairs of Western Europe and The east ever since the division of the roman empire.
And people wonder why some embrace Putin?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The reality is your opinion has the lasting social resonance of a collard green fart standing downwind of your local garbage dump that doesn't even draw 3 bottleflies.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Gosh, I'm really surprised that you don't understand. Shocked.


Well seeing has how my opinion is the law I think you don't understand! Don't fret though Turkey. I am sure the baby Jesus will come home soon and prove you right. Boy that rapture is going to suck for us heathens.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Setting aside the politics of the moment, I have to tell you, a cold chill runs down my spine as I recall our eldest daughter and our son-in-law were in Mumbai and stayed at the "Taj" Hotel, for a bit more than a week last Spring, as they tried to adopt a young Indian child (with medical issues). After investing a bit more than $11,000 in the effort and then being told of additional issues to be worked out, that would require approximately six more weeks of residence in India and the payment of substantially more $'s, they were forced to return the little girl to an orphanage and, with heavy hearts, return to Chicago without her. I've been sure ever since that they were the victims of a cruel financial scam and am now simply grateful they got out of India without injury to themselves. It is a crazy and hostile world that we live in!


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

globetrotter said:


> idiiot


Right, I'm the idiot. Who is the one who believes in a magical creature(s) that has human beings represent "him" on earth to tell people to give their lives and their money, and to take others' lives for "his" cause? Now I'm not saying that all people of faith are morons, but those who so blindly follow it, to the point where any argument against a "god" is seen as idiocy, surely are talking from both sides of their mouths. How do you eat all the while my friend?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
But I am prejudiced.
G.K. Chesterton, J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis gave us 
a 'High Church' morality presented in essay and fiction. 
Your distilled alternative is so clear it is empty.
I'm better for believing in a talking lion than the hubris that passes for intellectual freedom.

The sun is setting, my Lubavitch Chabbad nieghbors are walking to temple. I cannot imagine their pain, or having no ready succor for it.


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## mikeber (May 5, 2004)

*Re*



rgrossicone said:


> pt4u67 said:
> 
> 
> > All this talk of imperialism....where is it? I've seen nothing but the west drawing away from their former colonies.
> ...


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

mikeber said:


> 6) Even if you consider Israel an imperialistic state, nothing connects it to the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.


Really? Not according to Shlomo Brom, retired israeli general.

_"Israeli intelligence overplayed the threat posed by Iraq and reinforced the U.S. and British assessment that Saddam Hussein had large amounts of weapons of mass destruction, a retired Israeli general said Thursday."_

https://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-04-israeli-iraq-threat_x.htm


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

omairp said:


> Really? Not according to Shlomo Brom, retired israeli general.
> 
> _"Israeli intelligence overplayed the threat posed by Iraq and reinforced the U.S. and British assessment that Saddam Hussein had large amounts of weapons of mass destruction, a retired Israeli general said Thursday."_
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-04-israeli-iraq-threat_x.htm


So did many other intelligence services.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

eagle2250 said:


> Setting aside the politics of the moment, I have to tell you, a cold chill runs down my spine as I recall our eldest daughter and our son-in-law were in Mumbai and stayed at the "Taj" Hotel, for a bit more than a week last Spring, as they tried to adopt a young Indian child (with medical issues). After investing a bit more than $11,000 in the effort and then being told of additional issues to be worked out, that would require approximately six more weeks of residence in India and the payment of substantially more $'s, they were forced to return the little girl to an orphanage and, with heavy hearts, return to Chicago without her. I've been sure ever since that they were the victims of a cruel financial scam and am now simply grateful they got out of India without injury to themselves. It is a crazy and hostile world that we live in!


sorry to hear that it didn't work out for your daughter

I lived in the taj for almost 2 years, and stayed for several months in the oberoi - going back about 7 years now. my wife was very shaken up by recent events.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

rgrossicone said:


> Right, I'm the idiot. Who is the one who believes in a magical creature(s) that has human beings represent "him" on earth to tell people to give their lives and their money, and to take others' lives for "his" cause? Now I'm not saying that all people of faith are morons, but those who so blindly follow it, to the point where any argument against a "god" is seen as idiocy, surely are talking from both sides of their mouths. How do you eat all the while my friend?


I don't believe in god, either. that isn't the idiocy that I am talking about. the whole "white people screwed up the world" idiocy is what I am talking about.

I am not sure, but I would think that if so many people think that you are an idiot that you can't keep track of the various reasons that they might think so, you may want to reconsider your positions.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I clicked on this thread thinking it would be about the Mumbai attack. I should have known better. Carry on.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

I believe in Karma. The guilty will be punished.


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## mikeber (May 5, 2004)

omairp said:


> Really? Not according to Shlomo Brom, retired israeli general.
> 
> _"Israeli intelligence overplayed the threat posed by Iraq and reinforced the U.S. and British assessment that Saddam Hussein had large amounts of weapons of mass destruction, a retired Israeli general said Thursday."_
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-04-israeli-iraq-threat_x.htm


Israelis may have wished so and maybe even tried to convince the US to go ahead. At the end of the day, the US didn't invade Iraq because of Israel, neither in 1991, nor in 2003. (I am well aware of another Muslim conspiracy theory: George Bush is only a puppet in Israeli hands and does exactly what Israel dictates him). 
The US acted on only on American interests, as seen by the administration back in 2003. 
Israel may even wish that the US will attack Iran, yet Bush didn't act in that direction. One needs to be absolutely insane to assume that the US would engage in a war of such magnitude just because Israel demands it.
All I say is that Israel and the US may have common interests, but not IDENTICAL interests. Lets take things in proportion and not get carried away by rhetoric.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

omairp said:


> Really? Not according to Shlomo Brom, retired israeli general.
> 
> _"Israeli intelligence overplayed the threat posed by Iraq and reinforced the U.S. and British assessment that Saddam Hussein had large amounts of weapons of mass destruction, a retired Israeli general said Thursday."_
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-04-israeli-iraq-threat_x.htm


Its always interesting that whenever a terrorist attack occurs anywhere in the world, somehow, someway the topic of Israel creeps into the discussion.

The latest news on the death toll from the attacks stands at 174 souls. I believe only a handful were Jews/Israelis. I don't think Israel had anything to do with this or any other terrorist attack.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The latest information identifies the attackers as a pakistani group seeking a Pakistan-India war over Kashmir.
The surving attacker has a 4th grade education.
Americans. Britons and Jews were specificaly targeted.
My nieghborhood has many indian and pakistani families. We have a import store both frequent.Up the street are the homes of many Lubavitcher Chabbad Jews. Down the street is a brit import shop , nextdoor pub and a cockney mechanic's garage.
And all of us, are american, if not by direct citizenship but choice of residence and the reality our children will be. I think that is what this 4th grade patriot will never understand, and why he was a 4th grade day labourer.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

I just can't understand these muslims that go and kill innocent souls in name of religion.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Don't set up muslims as straw dogs to be knocked over,withouta look at India.
It holds it's own radical hindu groups who see ANY incursion as a cultural attack.
A christian missionary and his son were fast asleep in their car in a rural area.
The car was set on fire and stoned with them inside. There have been other attacks and protests against missionaries of any religion.
Sit down with a learned and enlightend Immam, Rabbhi, Priest , Monk, Lamma ,Shaman.
You would find a repugnance from all for these acts, a measured reply and counterwieght to scriptures all have that can be distorted into hate and violence.
Turn your TEEVEE on. That fatman Hagee in Texas is doing just that.
I'd love to sprinkle fiberglass particles down that overstretched suit of his.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> Turn your TEEVEE on. That fatman Hagee in Texas is doing just that.


People say what they believe, but is violence with them? Has Hagee or any of his followers done violence? I have never heard of Hagee pushing violence. I never heard of him saying 'take things into your own hands'. He will try to get laws changed. (I haven't heard him in decades and maybe he has changed). So don't turn him into a strawman of violence.

I heard many Hell Fire and Brimstone sermons, which happens to include violence as something they are preaching against. Even your own life some people think you are a man of violence, because to them every body who has a gun is violent. If you say something against something there are always people to accuse you of hate. Passionate belief doesn't make one into a hater.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

"brainwashing is the poison of society"


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

All religions have their rough points. Islam is a relatively new religion, about 1500 years old. All religions have points in time where some of their followers become violent it is not nearly as large a number as in the Crusades or Inquisition in which most people participated. It is similar to these events where people are asserting their religion. At least for Islam's first years it was a bastion of science and learning while Christianity was in the Dark Ages. It's quite similar to Jewish terrorism while Israel was being governed by 'Jews' who were really working towards Greek and Roman interests.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Thomas Hart said:


> as in the Crusades or Inquisition in which most people participated.


If everyone participated in the Crusades, who was Robin Hood stealing from? Not even all of those who could afford to gather a squad of mercenaries and travel halfway across the known world were participating.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

globetrotter said:


> I lived in the taj for almost 2 years, and stayed for several months in the oberoi - going back about 7 years now. my wife was very shaken up by recent events.


A recent issue of _Departures_, the American Express magazine, devoted most of its content to India. The Taj and the Oberoi sound like the sort of places I'd stay if I went. Fortunately, my company's Indian offices are not in Mumbai, and I haven't had reason to go.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> The latest news on the death toll from the attacks stands at 174 souls. I believe only a handful were Jews/Israelis. I don't think Israel had anything to do with this or any other terrorist attack.


One of the ten targets was a center for ultra-orthodox Jews. At least one couple who were killed there were Americans.


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

Miket61 said:


> If everyone participated in the Crusades, who was Robin Hood stealing from? Not even all of those who could afford to gather a squad of mercenaries and travel halfway across the known world were participating.


Excuse me, I worded that incorrectly. What I meant was most Christians supported the crusades, even if they could not participate, while most Muslims do not support terrorism.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Thomas Hart said:


> Excuse me, I worded that incorrectly. What I meant was most Christians supported the crusades, even if they could not participate, while most Muslims do not support terrorism.


If most Muslims do not support terrorism, why are there so many Muslim terrorists? Why are state run TV stations in the middle east glorifying terrorism using children's cartoon characters to attack Jews. It is cold comfort to bury one's head in the sand (see above pic) and pretend that this is an anomaly. It is systemic. The past 40 years has provided ample evidence of this; from Munich, through the 80's, 90's and culminating in the 9/11 attacks and beyond Islamic terrorism has been tolerated by Muslims for one reason or another.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Do you support a safe highway system? So why do we buy vehicles that can reach 120 MPH when the speed limit in most states is @ half that? Why do we tolerate distracting electronic devises aas options, yet many safety features are buried because a unit increase of a few hundred dollars is bad business compared to a few wrongfull death suits annually?Why do our media 'GLORIFY' car chases like Bullit and countless other tyre squeeling, French Connection action scenes that would kill a dozen people in the real world.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> If most Muslims do not support terrorism, why are there so many Muslim terrorists?


There are a billion Muslim people in the world. They are not all out to get you.

Muslim people are complacent with regards to terrorism in the same way Christian people are complacent with regards to abortion clinic harassment and killing and gay bashing. No one is perfect and most religious people are hypocrites. Now if only we could find some way to get rid of religion and the craziness that accompanies it...


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Whenever someone proposes eliminating something, my first question is what it will be replaced with.
We've come from fire hardened wooden thrusting spears to ICBMs with multiple warheads.
But those sharpened sticks fed our ancestors so they could give first expression on cave ceilings that led to Mozart and the Eiffel Tower.
So, with acoustic guitar in hand and campfire sending embers skyward, sing a folksong about this beatific vision of a world society without religosity.
I'd bring smores, but that is to much ritual, almost equal to formal communion.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Stringfellow said:


> There are a billion Muslim people in the world. They are not all out to get you.
> 
> Muslim people are complacent with regards to terrorism in the same way Christian people are complacent with regards to abortion clinic harassment and killing and gay bashing. No one is perfect and most religious people are hypocrites. Now if only we could find some way to get rid of religion and the craziness that accompanies it...


All religious people are hypocrites. It is the price we pay for imperfectly trying to conform our actions to our conscience rather than simply conforming our conscience to our actions.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> If most Muslims do not support terrorism, why are there so many Muslim terrorists?


Let's look at your question.

The reason there are "so many Muslim terrorists," as you put is, is because there are many Muslim countries and a lot Muslims in the world, period -- and the vast majority of them are poor and powerless. Muslim terrorists attack those whom they perceive to be enemies, whether or not such "enemies" are other Muslims, women, children, etc.

Terrorists do not need (and do not have) "most Muslims" supporting them. They do need (and have) the money of a few wealthy Muslims, the armed backing of a few powerful warlords and military bigwigs, and intelligence information from sympathisers in the police/military intelligence services.

This begs the question, "With so many _Hindus_ in the world, why haven't we seen more Hindu terrorism?" Two of many possible answers: there is only one Hindu-leaning country on earth, and it hasn't been occupied by another nation for a while. In any case, India has more than enough terrorists, be they Hindu or Sikh; and when angry enough, they've shown themselves to be as populous (and as lethal) as any Muslim terrorist group.

.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> Islamic terrorism has been tolerated by Muslims for one reason or another.


The average Muslim "tolerates" Islamic terrorism in the way that you and I would, were we born in Muslim states: we'd stay away from it, rather than walk up to a terrorist and say, "Stop it."

Average Muslims live in corrupt, authoritarian countries. Average Muslims cannot rely on the police to stop terrorists. Average Muslims can only hope that their leaders --Hosni Mubarak, Saddam Hussein, etc.-- clamp down on Muslim terrorism within the country.

Of course, such strongmen end up practicing terrorism against their own people ... but that's not a uniquely _Muslim_ practice.

.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

The "average" Muslim disapproves of terrorism because he holds a very convenient and self-serving definition of terrorism that is not shared by most other people.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> The "average" Muslim disapproves of terrorism because he holds a very convenient and self-serving definition of terrorism that is not shared by most other people.


Okay, you've whetted our appetite. Do go on.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

It usually goes something like this--do you support terrorism against (USA/Israel/India/etc.)?

A: No.

Do you approve of suicide bombings against civilians in (USA/Israel/India/etc.)?

A: Yes.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Good start. Please go on.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

I don't have the time or the inclination to educate you on this well-known fact. But here's a good place to start:

https://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=262


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Pendantic Turkey, here's a book I think you'd enjoy very much -- I know I did. (Perhaps you've read it already.) https://www.amazon.com/Great-Theft-Wrestling-Islam-Extremists/dp/0060563397

BTW, thank you for having enough time and inclination to have posted 1,367 times since January.

.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> It usually goes something like this--do you support terrorism against (USA/Israel/India/etc.)?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> ...


Based on your graph, I think you got your answers mixed up. (See above.)


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Stringfellow said:


> There are a billion Muslim people in the world. They are not all out to get you.
> 
> Muslim people are complacent with regards to terrorism in the same way Christian people are complacent with regards to abortion clinic harassment and killing and gay bashing. No one is perfect and most religious people are hypocrites. Now if only we could find some way to get rid of religion and the craziness that accompanies it...


When clinics were bombed the perpetrators, when caught, were persecuted. People did not tolerate this sort of thing and for the most part we don't hear of clinic bombings anymore. I don't know where you get this notion of complacency among Christians toward clinic bombers. If you want to equate that to beheading of journalists and systematic murder of innocent peoples, including children, then be my guest.

And what the hell do you mean when you say religious people are hyporcrites? This has to be the most moronic thing I've ever heard. Religious people don't claim to be perfect or in someway better than anyone else. We are all frail and sinful however we know that to be truly enlightened is to turn toward that which is greater than us rather than look for salvation in our own corrupt philosophy. As for getting rid of religion, Marx wrote the book and Lenin and Stalin brought it to life. Yes, we see the craziness that that episode in world history saved us from!


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Let's look at your question.
> 
> The reason there are "so many Muslim terrorists," as you put is, is because there are many Muslim countries and a lot Muslims in the world, period -- and the vast majority of them are poor and powerless. Muslim terrorists attack those whom they perceive to be enemies, whether or not such "enemies" are other Muslims, women, children, etc.
> 
> ...


There are just as many, if not more, Christians in many more countries so I don't understand your point. OBL and the hierarchy of AQ are neither poor nor dispossessed. The 19 hijackers of 9/11 infamy were mostly middle class and well educated. Islamic radicalism is no more about being poor than being a member of the KKK is. I don't hear people making the same excuses for them yet terrorists use the same tactics and are typically far more successful and rack up a greater body count.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> OBL and the hierarchy of AQ are neither poor nor dispossessed.


My point is that the vast majority of Muslims are poor and dispossessed to an extent we find hard to imagine. I'm not sure you could say the same about most of today's Christians.

Nearly all of today's Islamic terrorists --the ones who do the actual killing, not the ordering-- are far poorer and ill-educated than OBL, the AQ elite, and the 9/11 hijackers. I repeat: the reason there are so many of these murderers is because there are so many poor, ill-educated and hopeless Muslims among the billion plus who practise the faith.

.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> Islamic radicalism is no more about being poor than being a member of the KKK is.


I wonder. What's the median income of a KKK member?


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

It really, truly amazes me how much hate their is for Islam. Do you know any Muslims? Many of the Christians I have met in the United States are more radical than the Muslims I know. Also, pt4u67 what I believe Arnold Gingrich Fan is trying to say is that when terrorists have financial backing and weapons the people can do nothing to stop them.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> My point is that the vast majority of Muslims are poor and dispossessed to an extent we find hard to imagine. I'm not sure you could say the same about most of today's Christians.
> 
> Nearly all of today's Islamic terrorists --the ones who do the actual killing, not the ordering-- are far poorer and ill-educated than OBL, the AQ elite, and the 9/11 hijackers. I repeat: the reason there are so many of these murderers is because there are so many poor, ill-educated and hopeless Muslims among the billion plus who practise the faith.
> 
> .


I think evidence can be found in suicide terrorists. It takes a special kind of hopelessness to kill yourself and super special kind of hopelessness for a mother to blow herself up.

But I am sure all the Christians on this site and in the world will act Christ-like, lead a life of poverty, and donate their Earthy possessions to those in poverty. It's harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle. It's time for all these Christians to start acting Christ-like rather than claiming they try to act Christ-like but come up short because they are sinners and prone to human frailty. It's not that hard to make it to the Salvation Army - get to it!


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Stringfellow said:


> Muslim people are complacent with regards to terrorism in the same way Christian people are complacent with regards to abortion clinic harassment and killing and gay bashing.


I don't know what "Christains" you have been around, but my experince is that by far more non-Christians are doing what you accuse Christians of doing. Christians are more interested in getting people through the pearly gates than through the gates of hell. So, yes, they do preach against sin. Redeemed from what?! Sin! One of the purposes of preaching is to preach against sin. What is sin? Rape, fornication, adultery, gay, stealing, killing of the innocent and so on. You are certainly mislead about Christianity, because, you certainly don't know what Christianity is. Repentance means what? Turning away from sin. If you hang onto your sins by refusing to repent you will not be walking throught the pearly gates. God is the only one that says what sin is; the repented agree, and the unrepented will have a hell of a time.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Stringfellow said:


> It's harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle.


You wrote it. But can you explain it?


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> I wonder. What's the median income of a KKK member?


You seem fixated on this notion of poverty and income leading to some propensity to become a terrorist. If this were the case then we would have many more terrorists in the world. There are poor Christians in South America and in Eastern Europe. There are poor Hindus in India and still, one out of five people living on earth is a Chinese peasant. Given their financial predicament, why are they not becoming terrorists?

Terrorism has absolutely nothing to do with income or education level. It has nothing to do with being dispossessed. I believe one of the Glasgow bombers a few years ago was a physician in residence. While it is true that AQ and Hamas will use poor people to carry out these attacks there are many middle class Muslims that are just as willing and have done so as well.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Thomas Hart said:


> It really, truly amazes me how much hate their is for Islam. Do you know any Muslims? Many of the Christians I have met in the United States are more radical than the Muslims I know. *Also, pt4u67 what I believe Arnold Gingrich Fan is trying to say is that when terrorists have financial backing and weapons the people can do nothing to stop them.*


No one hates Muslims, certainly not me. What I am saying is that there is something fundamentally rotten in Islam that needs to be worked out. They need to pull themselves out of the dark ages and enter modernity. All religions are conservative, that is their nature. Islam seems to be conservative in a very reactionary way. It lacks a certain intellectual depth that probably comes from a lack of central authority. Christianity has the Catholic faith to give it a centralized authority. Judaism has a rich history of written law and teaching that is handed down from one generation to another. Islam seems to lack this.

People can do plenty. These terrorists hide amongst the people, they are revered and venerated and are viewed as folk heroes. The Palestinians elected a terrorist government so they are squarely to blame for their predicament over the past few years. When the force of public opinion changes there is nothing to stop the tide. The Shah of Iran with a complex state police force was overthrown in short order by a man living thousands of miles away. What Muslims lack is a moral authority. Those that could give it to them are too busy inciting them to violence and vilifying the west.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Stringfellow said:


> I think evidence can be found in suicide terrorists. It takes a special kind of hopelessness to kill yourself and super special kind of hopelessness for a mother to blow herself up.
> 
> But I am sure all the Christians on this site and in the world will act Christ-like, lead a life of poverty, and donate their Earthy possessions to those in poverty. It's harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle. It's time for all these Christians to start acting Christ-like rather than claiming they try to act Christ-like but come up short because they are sinners and prone to human frailty. It's not that hard to make it to the Salvation Army - get to it!


There is nothing inconsistent between having earthly possessions and being a good Christian. Please read Aquinas and St. Augustine before posting such rubbish!


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

pt4u67 said:


> There are just as many, if not more, Christians in many more countries so I don't understand your point. OBL and the hierarchy of AQ are neither poor nor dispossessed. The 19 hijackers of 9/11 infamy were mostly middle class and well educated. Islamic radicalism is no more about being poor than being a member of the KKK is. I don't hear people making the same excuses for them yet terrorists use the same tactics and are typically far more successful and rack up a greater body count.


I looked at this debate originally because I am an Indian who was shaken by the events of last week and interested in your take on this. There are a lot of posters on this board who seem not to have grasped (or seen) the conditions some Muslims try to survive in. Before I go on further, I should state that I am not a Muslim. Most of the poorest Muslims live in conditions that folks in the US cannot simply comprehend. Day in and Day out.

It cannot be easy to live, wondering where your next meal is coming from, and trying to live a spiritual life...turning towards your faith is something my christian friends would do in periods of such adversity, and no doubt this is exactly what occurs. We all forget the commonality between Islam and Christianity...and unfortuanatly those who radicalise these people are doing this for the simple reason of expediciency.

I actually do beleive that the vast majority of Muslims abhor terrorism - India actually has the second largest Muslim population in the world. We are all capable of acts of terror, regardless of religion...the IRA, ETA, Red Brigades, Timothty McVeigh...to name a few Anglo Saxon ones...the simple fact is that terrorists are political animals who use religion as a means to an end...


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

WA said:


> I don't know what "Christains" you have been around, but my experince is that by far more non-Christians are doing what you accuse Christians of doing. Christians are more interested in getting people through the pearly gates than through the gates of hell. So, yes, they do preach against sin. Redeemed from what?! Sin! One of the purposes of preaching is to preach against sin. What is sin? Rape, fornication, adultery, gay, stealing, killing of the innocent and so on. You are certainly mislead about Christianity, because, you certainly don't know what Christianity is. Repentance means what? Turning away from sin. If you hang onto your sins by refusing to repent you will not be walking throught the pearly gates. God is the only one that says what sin is; the repented agree, and the unrepented will have a hell of a time.


I love this argument! You're saying, "people who claim to be Christian and who commit terrorism aren't really Christian because real Christians don't commit terrorism." Great argument! I think Muslim people would retort, "people who claim to be Muslim and who commit terrorism aren't really Muslim because real Muslims don't commit terrorism."

The Church of Latter Days Saints (Mormons) just spent millions of dollars to promote Prop. 8 in California. The ads they ran were blatant gay bashing which doesn't seem very Christ-like to me. Are the Mormons Christian or are they the fake Christians you talk about? How about Tim McVeigh? He was Catholic. Was he a real Christian or was he not a Christian because he blew up a federal building? I just want to get it straight. How about W? He's super Christian and he invaded the Holy Land and had thousands of people (a lot of whom were not terrorists or bad guys) killed. Does he count?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Vic, a mere grammatical point, but calling The IRA 'Anglo-Saxons' is what started that donnybrook, and many of the other ethnic seperatist conflicts.
Viewing the west as 'Anglo Saxons' is why an innocent Sikhe was murdered in Arizona after 9/11.
The same ignorance from different vantage points.

WA the eye of the needle refers to the three gate entryway to ancient cities; the central large entry, or needle was for livestock bearing goods, with two 'eyes' on each sides for pedestrians.
Just visualise a soccer mom in SUV trying to drive on the sidewalk ( and they do.)


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> Judaism has a rich history of written law and teaching that is handed down from one generation to another. Islam seems to lack this.


I'm glad that you gave your statement the benefit of the doubt by using the word "seems". In fact, Islam does have "a rich history of written law and teaching that is handed down from one generation to another." (As far back as the late medieval period, there were even prominent _female_ Islamic law scholars whose writings are now being rediscovered.) Please read this excellent book: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Theft-Wrestling-Islam-Extremists/dp/0060563397

One very serious problem that moderate, progressive Muslims face is the severe erosion of their power and influence over the past 250 years. The great schools of _sharia_ interpretation were closed down, the intellectual giants they produced were dispersed or destroyed, and Islamic states --from the late Ottoman Empire onward-- replaced them with untrained lackeys and mouthpieces. There's a lot more to the story, of course; suffice to say that today's moderate, progressive Muslims are finally realizing that they must "take Islam back." Once again, I highly recommend that you read The Great Theft.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

I've always taken the "eye of the needle" at face value. Jesus was saying that it's hard for people who are born into wealth to realize that they're sinners, too, because wealth in his day was thought of as as evidence that you were leading a moral life. If you reject wealth, you're not tempted to believe that you're doing better than you are. This is a variation on a very common theme in his teachings.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Stringfellow said:


> I love this argument! You're saying, "people who claim to be Christian and who commit terrorism aren't really Christian because real Christians don't commit terrorism." Great argument! I think Muslim people would retort, "people who claim to be Muslim and who commit terrorism aren't really Muslim because real Muslims don't commit terrorism."
> 
> The Church of Latter Days Saints (Mormons) just spent millions of dollars to promote Prop. 8 in California. The ads they ran were blatant gay bashing which doesn't seem very Christ-like to me. Are the Mormons Christian or are they the fake Christians you talk about? How about Tim McVeigh? He was Catholic. Was he a real Christian or was he not a Christian because he blew up a federal building? I just want to get it straight. How about W? He's super Christian and he invaded the Holy Land and had thousands of people (a lot of whom were not terrorists or bad guys) killed. Does he count?


And then there is Judas who hung around Jesus, but wasn't really interested and betrayed Him.

I understand your point about some people who think they are Christians. There are also people who hide under Christianity as a false front, but do horrible things in the dark. The latter I think every Church has some of them. And then like everybody else- Christians stumble, too. The size of the stumble can be life changing.

As far as Mormons go, like all other religions, except Christianity, they believe they will be a God, whereas, Christianity will never claim that we will be God or His equal, but will always be under God, or you could say, less than. I was talking to a long time Mormon about a month ago who was explaining to me why Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers, and he believes Mormons are Christians. The definitions of Christianity is Jesus is the God that created the earth and heavens and everything else, including angels, so Jesus and Satan can not be brothers.

The ads the Mormons put up to promote Prop. 8 in California I don't remember seeing any, so I have no say either way. Some people say that anybody who thinks gay is wrong is gay bashing, which means they are doing the bashing instead.


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## a4audi08 (Apr 27, 2007)

most of the US intell community deals with terrorism with a working assumption/definition that categorizes attacks as beiing political in nature. i think if you strip away the religious angles, then the issue becomes much clearer. 

terrorism, whether it is conducted in the middle east, northern ireland, colombia, spain, india, sri lanka, or oklahoma, at the end of the day is usually an attempt to further some political goal. osama bin laden didnt form al qaeda b/c he wanted to forcibly convert christians. i think it should be pretty obvious to everyone here that we have always had political leaders/actors, willing to wrap themselves and their causes in religious terms to try and incite their potential followers. 

the more we're concerned about which religion is "holier" or more peace-loving, than the other, the less time we're devoting to the underlying political issues that are at the heart of these problems. osama and zawahiri are probably laughing in their caves.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

The problem with your thesis is that bin Laden and company believe that Islam and politics are inseparable; they believe that their god requires them to establish Islamic government over the entire world.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> The problem with your thesis is that bin Laden and company believe that Islam and politics are inseparable; they believe that their god requires them to establish Islamic government over the entire world.


While our current federal government only believes their God requires them to establish a Christian government over North America. We are better than them! Yeah us!


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Stringfellow said:


> ...our current federal government...believes their God requires them to establish a Christian government over North America.


Not true, Stringfellow.


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## a4audi08 (Apr 27, 2007)

PedanticTurkey said:


> The problem with your thesis is that bin Laden and company believe that Islam and politics are inseparable; they believe that their god requires them to establish Islamic government over the entire world.


if u remember, the reason anyone knows of bin laden is because of his role in 1) helping to push the russians out of afghanistan, and then 2) demanding the withdrawal of foreign forces from saudi arabia. nothing to do with trying to create an islamic caliphate. this is about power, pure and simple. the al qaeda types dont have it and they resent the fact that the west does. the islamic caliphate business is nothing but a pipe dream. they couldnt even take full control of afghanistan, do you honestly believe that they think they're going to forcibly convert the entire world? they will never be in the position to do such a thing.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

In 1996 Gordon Hinckly, leader of the LDS met with the Catholic Bishop of Hawaii to discuss coordination of rdsistance to same sex marriages.
The irony is LDS still teaches as doctrine the plural marriage as the highest form, a practise they themselves were persecuted ovder.
And Roman Cahtholicism doesn't even recognise the state's right to perform marriages or grant divorces.
Meanwhile, the american and canadian Episcopal church is fragmenting over gay marriage and female priests.
This is a difficult issue for anyone, least of all churches.
I would observe that the behaviour of BOTH groups post election has been niether very christian or progressive, liberal and enlightened gay.
I would also point out it wasn't merely a christian agenda, but that the various forms of judaism are wrestling with this issue and many other relgions and sects trying to deal with it.
I might also point out @ 800 Mormon family units left LDS as a result of this campaign, which was NOT directly funded by the church, but through it's members.
Like it or not, deceitfull or not, it was legal, as legal as Ellen Degeneras contributing to the NO campaign.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> I'm glad that you gave your statement the benefit of the doubt by using the word "seems". In fact, Islam does have "a rich history of written law and teaching that is handed down from one generation to another." (As far back as the late medieval period, there were even prominent _female_ Islamic law scholars whose writings are now being rediscovered.) Please read this excellent book: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Theft-Wrestling-Islam-Extremists/dp/0060563397
> 
> One very serious problem that moderate, progressive Muslims face is the severe erosion of their power and influence over the past 250 years. The great schools of _sharia_ interpretation were closed down, the intellectual giants they produced were dispersed or destroyed, and Islamic states --from the late Ottoman Empire onward-- replaced them with untrained lackeys and mouthpieces. There's a lot more to the story, of course; suffice to say that today's moderate, progressive Muslims are finally realizing that they must "take Islam back." Once again, *I highly recommend that you read The Great Theft.*


Please read the Qur'an:

"When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them...."(Sura 47:4).

"Say to the infidels: If they desist, what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's." (Sura 8:39).

Muslims have been doing much writing and thinking over the centuries however how have these thoughts been preserved. Writings now just being "rediscovered" may be an academic curiosity, how are they received in the Islamic world. Having historic writings and thought is fine but what good is it if not adhered to. Is the true nature of Islam as stated above? Perhaps it is. I would argue that given the state Islam is in today, Muslims seem to be doing a rather good job at adhering to the orthodoxy.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

a4audi08 said:


> if u remember, the reason anyone knows of bin laden is because of his role in 1) helping to push the russians out of afghanistan, and then 2) demanding the withdrawal of foreign forces from saudi arabia. nothing to do with trying to create an islamic caliphate. this is about power, pure and simple. the al qaeda types dont have it and they resent the fact that the west does. the islamic caliphate business is nothing but a pipe dream. they couldnt even take full control of afghanistan, do you honestly believe that they think they're going to forcibly convert the entire world? they will never be in the position to do such a thing.


Do you remember _why_ he wanted foreign troops out of Saudi Arabia?


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> No one hates Muslims, certainly not me. What I am saying is that there is something fundamentally rotten in Islam that needs to be worked out. They need to pull themselves out of the dark ages and enter modernity. All religions are conservative, that is their nature. Islam seems to be conservative in a very reactionary way. It lacks a certain intellectual depth that probably comes from a lack of central authority. Christianity has the Catholic faith to give it a centralized authority. Judaism has a rich history of written law and teaching that is handed down from one generation to another. Islam seems to lack this.
> 
> People can do plenty. These terrorists hide amongst the people, they are revered and venerated and are viewed as folk heroes. The Palestinians elected a terrorist government so they are squarely to blame for their predicament over the past few years. When the force of public opinion changes there is nothing to stop the tide. The Shah of Iran with a complex state police force was overthrown in short order by a man living thousands of miles away. What Muslims lack is a moral authority. Those that could give it to them are too busy inciting them to violence and vilifying the west.


I do not think that there is something fundamentally wrong with Islam, they are simply a religion in crisis, and a young one at that. Jews have practiced terrorism constantly (before you call me anti-Semitic, please know I am a religious Jew who regularly attends services), and while Christianity has never practiced terrorism, they have committed many crimes throughout history (i.e. the Crusades and Inquisition, and even earlier they talk about killing non-believers in the Justinian Code).

So, in my opinion all religions have phases where violence is committed in the name of religion, and (some practitioners; of) Islam is (are) currently in this phase of violence.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Thomas Hart said:


> I do not think that there is something fundamentally wrong with Islam, they are simply a religion in crisis, and a young one at that. Jews have practiced terrorism constantly (before you call me anti-Semitic, please know I am a religious Jew who regularly attends services), and while Christianity has never practiced terrorism, they have committed many crimes throughout history (i.e. the Crusades and Inquisition, and even earlier they talk about killing non-believers in the Justinian Code).
> 
> So, in my opinion all religions have phases where violence is committed in the name of religion, and (some practitioners; of) Islam is (are) currently in this phase of violence.


The Crusades was open warfare. Armies amassed and attacked. Nothing criminal about that. The inquisition, as horrific as it was, was a legal process overseen by a tribunal. There was even a appeals process and there were some guilty verdicts that were overturned. As barbaric as it sounds now, the accused at least had rights!

A fatwa is administered by some nutty cleric one day at a mosque and the next thing you know a film maker in Denmark, an author or journalist has a price on his head. No tribunal, no oversight, no rules....just death.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> Please read the Qur'an:
> 
> "When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them...."(Sura 47:4).


Yes, and I have read the Old Testament too. Some nasty instructions there as well.

My point was that Islam, like all religions, evolved; but around 250 years ago, it began to be usurped by people who wanted to make their fantasies about an "ideal" past come to life. In many respects, they have succeeded. It's time for Islam to get back on track; I believe that on many fronts worldwide, it is doing so.


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> The Crusades was open warfare. Armies amassed and attacked. Nothing criminal about that. The inquisition, as horrific as it was, was a legal process overseen by a tribunal. There was even a appeals process and there were some guilty verdicts that were overturned. As barbaric as it sounds now, the accused at least had rights!
> 
> A fatwa is administered by some nutty cleric one day at a mosque and the next thing you know a film maker in Denmark, an author or journalist has a price on his head. No tribunal, no oversight, no rules....just death.


Your statement about fatwa is true, however these are radical Muslims the same as Opus Dei members are radical Christians. The Crusaders committed heinous crimes including the slaughter of the inhabitants of Jerusalem after they conquered the city, even though the Muslims had let the Christians live in peace in their quarter of the city. Islamists such as those recently in Somalia also have 'Tribunals', though like with the Inquisition the end result is already decided. Also while Christians were in the Dark Ages Muslims were advancing in science and medicine. Christian doctors bled people while Muslim doctors studied the use of Opium as anasthetic and developed primitve cures for measles. While Christians killed all non-believers Muslims, Jews and Christians lived side by side in Turkish lands.

Some Islamic sects have devolved and these are the Muslims we learn about. If you think Islam is in the Dark Ages now, give them a break as Christianity was in them for a whole lot longer. Islam is the only major religion that was enlightened when founded, most religions learn to become tolerant and intelligent as they age.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Everything Adolph Hilter did was LEGAL by the laws of the Riech. So lets not fall into tht fallacious argument.
And the crusades by today's international rulings were a war of aggression just as the invasion of Iraq is legally viewed. And for every 2 Roman Catholics, there is 1 Eastern Orthodox who has a different world view and historical perspective of those noble nights and what they did before setting one chain mailed foot in the Holy land.
And if you read the koran again, I refer you to the passage relating to the jews and Jeruselum.


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Yes, and I have read the Old Testament too. Some nasty instructions there as well.
> 
> My point was that Islam, like all religions, evolved; but around 250 years ago, it began to be usurped by people who wanted to make their fantasies about an "ideal" past come to life. In many respects, they have succeeded. It's time for Islam to get back on track; I believe that on many fronts worldwide, it is doing so.


I agree completely, however I believe that Islam did not start getting off track until maybe fifty years ago (before that it was just a few people-- less than today). It is also necessary to examine countries like Iran and Lebanon which were very western up until about thirty years ago, and there are currently countries such as Jordan which are currently western and pro-Israel and the like. My favorite example of a Muslim country that is peaceful is Somaliland (yes Somaliland not Somalia, there is a difference) which managed to have their first terrorist attack only recently. Their government structure is truly amazing and should be used as an example for all tribal Muslim areas.

Kav, I just saw your post after I posted this. It is excellent and I agree, with what you said, and I know of the Catholic aggression towards Eastern Orthodox in some parts of Europe; but was not the Byzantine Emperor who called on the Pope for help Eastern Orthodox?


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Thomas Hart said:


> I believe that Islam did not start getting off track until maybe fifty years ago (


I'd date it back to the Saud family's 'devil's pact' with the Wahabi sect, beginning in the mid 1700s.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Funny how modern medicine has returned to teh use of leeches, for example a man with a severely injured fingers had leeches applied to keep his blood from overwhelming The finger structures while they rebuilt themselves enough to pump that blood back.
And Europe wasn't entirely in the Dark Ages. Ireland served as repository for much knowledge that could have been lost, and there were flickers of light and genius. All cultures have periods of ascendancy and decline, so stating Islam's knowledge of opiates was superior to the West is hardly a high water mark, considering people in the New World were using coca leaves and a organic form of aspirin.
And Islam was hardly enlightened toward unbelievers, who had to pay greater taxes, rise only so far in the greater society and faced persecutions on the daily level history overlooks.
that persecution continues today. A jrodanian christian friend is very hostile to Israel, at the same time explaining her father only rose to Colonel in the army of Glubb pasha because he was a christian.And in rural turkey, plaques are being placed everywhere asserting many buildings and public works were built by turks, not the armenians who did. And they seek EU membership after closing down a greek island monastery of teaching and harrassing hte patriarch of Constantinople in direct violation of their own constitution.
So lets not fall into 'We did this, you did that' ante up poker game of that most human of games, screwing the other guy, regardless of race,creed or colour. 
We've all done it, and if not, will.


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## a4audi08 (Apr 27, 2007)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Do you remember _why_ he wanted foreign troops out of Saudi Arabia?


probably several reasons - im sure part of it is that he didnt want western troops in the birthplace of islam. but also b/c it was a perfect reminder of the arab's weakness and the west's strength (if you remember, bin laden approached the saudis about creating an arab force made up of afghani volunteers to repel any attack by saddam, but was rejected in favor of US troops); there was also the belief that it was a form of economic imperialism - bin laden very often made the argument that the US has benefitted from artificially low oil prices.

even if you believe that it was expelling foreign troops from an islamic land that was bin laden's primary motivation, there is a big difference between that and thinking that you are going to forcibly convert everyone to islam. one of the things that we should have learned from iraq is that even if you are in another person's country under ostensibly altruistic motivations, eventually there will be some resistance.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Okay, how about--why didn't the Saudis let bin Laden raise his own army in their country?

Are you starting to get an idea of the man's ambitions yet?


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

Kav said:


> Funny how modern medicine has returned to teh use of leeches, for example a man with a severely injured fingers had leeches applied to keep his blood from overwhelming The finger structures while they rebuilt themselves enough to pump that blood back.
> And Europe wasn't entirely in the Dark Ages. Ireland served as repository for much knowledge that could have been lost, and there were flickers of light and genius. All cultures have periods of ascendancy and decline, so stating Islam's knowledge of opiates was superior to the West is hardly a high water mark, considering people in the New World were using coca leaves and a organic form of aspirin.
> And Islam was hardly enlightened toward unbelievers, who had to pay greater taxes, rise only so far in the greater society and faced persecutions on the daily level history overlooks.
> that persecution continues today. A jrodanian christian friend is very hostile to Israel, at the same time explaining her father only rose to Colonel in the army of Glubb pasha because he was a christian.And in rural turkey, plaques are being placed everywhere asserting many buildings and public works were built by turks, not the armenians who did. And they seek EU membership after closing down a greek island monastery of teaching and harrassing hte patriarch of Constantinople in direct violation of their own constitution.
> ...


You are correct, and I did not mean to sound that way. I just wanted to point out to the people who are speaking against Islam that Islam has had it high points and Christianity had has its lows, as have all races and cultures as you pointed out. Islam was by know means kind to non-believers, but they did not slaughter them. Also, in Spain (I'm not sure about the rest of the Muslim Empire) Jews were treated relatively fairly and did not have as high of a tax or living conditions as bad as the Christians.

In addition, I do believe that the medicine Natives in the New World was superior to many (not all) of Europe's medicine at that point in time.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

Kav

I take your point. Apologies for any offense I may have caused...I should have perhaps just left it as Christians?



Kav said:


> Vic, a mere grammatical point, but calling The IRA 'Anglo-Saxons' is what started that donnybrook, and many of the other ethnic seperatist conflicts.
> Viewing the west as 'Anglo Saxons' is why an innocent Sikhe was murdered in Arizona after 9/11.
> The same ignorance from different vantage points.
> 
> ...


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Thomas Hart said:


> Your statement about fatwa is true, however these are radical Muslims the same as Opus Dei members are radical Christians. The Crusaders committed heinous crimes including the slaughter of the inhabitants of Jerusalem after they conquered the city, even though the Muslims had let the Christians live in peace in their quarter of the city. Islamists such as those recently in Somalia also have 'Tribunals', though like with the Inquisition the end result is already decided. Also while Christians were in the Dark Ages Muslims were advancing in science and medicine. Christian doctors bled people while Muslim doctors studied the use of Opium as anasthetic and developed primitve cures for measles. While Christians killed all non-believers Muslims, Jews and Christians lived side by side in Turkish lands.
> 
> Some Islamic sects have devolved and these are the Muslims we learn about. If you think Islam is in the Dark Ages now, give them a break as Christianity was in them for a whole lot longer. Islam is the only major religion that was enlightened when founded, most religions learn to become tolerant and intelligent as they age.


Do you know anything about Opus Dei except for what you have read in popular novels?

I love when apologists such as yourself hark back to 600 years ago during some Islamic "golden age". Its funny how those same doctors who were bleeding people slowly were able to evolve. Whose medicine is now the standard of the world? Did the East have anything to do with that? No!

As to the slaughter of innocents, that is the nature of warfare unfortunately. I could tell you stories of what the Janissaries used to do as well; the enslavement of Christians and forced conversions. Christians in the Holy Land were permitted to live in peace because it served the purpose of the Turks. Remember, the Muslims were invading Christian lands and destroying Christian relics and churches, of note the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. It was good old fashioned warfare. Nothing more, nothing less. The Church was the only unifying force in Christendom, and therefore unified political and military force had to originate from the Pope. That was a long, long time ago. Christianity grew up. Islam has not.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Yes, and I have read the Old Testament too. Some nasty instructions there as well.
> 
> My point was that Islam, like all religions, evolved; but around 250 years ago, it began to be usurped by people who wanted to make their fantasies about an "ideal" past come to life. In many respects, they have succeeded. It's time for Islam to get back on track; I believe that on many fronts worldwide, it is doing so.


There can be a good argument made that it is the moderates who are actually usurping Islam from what it was originally meant to be. One could argue that OBL's vision of Islam is the true faith.

I believe your error is one of an apriori assumption as to the goodness and virtue of Islam.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> There can be a good argument made that it is the moderates who are actually usurping Islam from what it was originally meant to be.


And more power to 'em, I say.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> I believe your error is one of an apriori assumption as to the goodness and virtue of Islam.


I hope not, since I've never found any religion on Earth to be good or virtuous. Diverting and poetic at times, silly and repugnant at others; nothing more. 
Feel free to pray for me.

.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

This thread seems to have distilled down to 'religion bad.'
So, again, handing an acoutic guitar over, please tell us about this golden age of athiesm you invision?
My only example extant is the Soviet Union under Stalin,
ex georgian theology student beaten by his father.
'Uncle Joe' seems to have carried the abused child syndrome well, murdering how many millions of people, more than Hitler, Pol Pot or anyone you care to name? He did this after severely curtailing any church activity.
Curious fact; Both the late Yeltsin and Putin are open members of the Russian Orthodox Church. Yet nobody on the world stage has used that fact as a common ground.
No, we just point missiles at moscow and are shocked when they point missiles back at Warsaw, while other people blow up trains in Madrid.
I understand now.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

Kav said:


> This thread seems to have distilled down to 'religion bad.'
> So, again, handing an acoutic guitar over, please tell us about this golden age of athiesm you invision?
> My only example extant is the Soviet Union under Stalin,
> ex georgian theology student beaten by his father.
> ...


Kav, you're brilliant, and have had soooooo many experiences - it's hard to believe you're unemployed.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

So are a few other people. If you meant that as a insult, choose wisely who you say it to these days.
Not everyone is a forgiving christian.
They just might rearrange your dentalwork, assuming you still have teeth.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> They just might rearrange your dentalwork, assuming you still have teeth.


Maybe his false teeth are outdated. Just joking. Stringfellow you have been taught to look at Christianity negatively. Don't you think it is time to do your own thinking? From cover to cover of the Bible are lessons on how to have a better relationship with God. The less sin the better the friendship. And yet your view of Christianity is the exact opposite of what is between those covers. Where does your view come from? Those who lied to you? One of the purposes of preaching is to speak firmly against sin. One purposes of teaching is to explain about sin and how to get out of it. The more you write here, Stringfellow, the more you reveal how little you know and how much you misunderstand Christianity. No doubt cons have used religions to their dirty money or power gain. But, then, cons are liars, aren't they. In the South they used to tar and feather the cons. So not everybody who comes in the name of God is of God. You show with your writings that you have been taught how to please, misconceptions and all. Well, so have people in Churchs. And yet you make a mockery of Christains doing the same as you.

In another post, Kav, you forgot some other atheist- China, Cambodia, Cuba, Veitnam, Laos, and the list goes on. These atheist have been devastating to all who disagree with them, religous or not, and even those who were not against them.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Kav said:


> This thread seems to have distilled down to 'religion bad.'
> So, again, handing an acoutic guitar over, please tell us about this *golden age of athiesm* you invision?


Who said that atheism was golden? Not I. Don't you see? None of it is golden: not religion, not atheism, not any -theism (with a hyphen).


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Kav said:


> Not everyone is a forgiving christian.


True. Some people are forgiving and non-Christian.

.


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

WA said:


> Maybe his false teeth are outdated. Just joking. Stringfellow you have been taught to look at Christianity negatively. Don't you think it is time to do your own thinking? From cover to cover of the Bible are lessons on how to have a better relationship with God. The less sin the better the friendship. And yet your view of Christianity is the exact opposite of what is between those covers. Where does your view come from? Those who lied to you? One of the purposes of preaching is to speak firmly against sin. One purposes of teaching is to explain about sin and how to get out of it. The more you write here, Stringfellow, the more you reveal how little you know and how much you misunderstand Christianity. No doubt cons have used religions to their dirty money or power gain. But, then, cons are liars, aren't they. In the South they used to tar and feather the cons. So not everybody who comes in the name of God is of God. You show with your writings that you have been taught how to please, misconceptions and all. Well, so have people in Churchs. And yet you make a mockery of Christains doing the same as you.
> 
> In another post, Kav, you forgot some other atheist- China, Cambodia, Cuba, Veitnam, Laos, and the list goes on. These atheist have been devastating to all who disagree with them, religous or not, and even those who were not against them.


WA,

I do not hate Christians. I hate religion and here's why:

Followers of a religion should not get to pick and choose the parts of their faith they like and follow and parts they don't like. The Bible is take it or leave it. You don't get to claim that this part is wrong or inapplicable or nonsense and the other parts are good. If it is the word of God then the entire thing is the word of God not open to interpretation. After all, who are you to interpret for God? Who are you to say God got something wrong?

With that in mind, your beloved Bible has some crazy stuff it in. God created the world in 7 days? Seems far fetched! He flooded the entire world because he was pissed off? There is not enough water on the entire world to flood it - plus 2 of all the animals! It's OK to stone your wife at her father's door if after you are married you find out she is not a virgin!

Not to mention the fact that believers claim the Bible is the work of God. OK, but if it is a work of God shouldn't it be perfect? After all, this is a perfect God, right? But the Bible is far from perfect. Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John rarely match up. Thomas is way out there! Was it divinely inspired? Well if that is the case these inspired people had to get stuff wrong - the stuff that doesn't match up - and if that is the case do I want to follow a book of messed up stuff?

While you love the Bible and interpret it favorably I do not. I am not atheist - I am agnostic. I have no faith and yet I have never killed anyone, stolen from anyone, or ever been in a fist fight - ever! Why can I be nice to people without following an old, inconsistent, outdated, book of non-congruent ideas that is often mean! This is a vengeful, pissy God you have. If I can do it surely others can. And without God to divide Humanity maybe we could get along.

The ancient Greeks and Romans loved their Gods too - but we don't buy that nonsense anymore. Everyone knows their God is the real one - just like 1000 years ago we knew the Earth was the center of the universe. At least we learned that the Earth is not the center of the universe. Maybe someday we''ll learn that Jesus was just one of many groovy guys from which Emperor Constantine picked to be his new religious leader, thus throwing us into the desperate spiral we call Christianity. Or maybe we'll have the rapture and I'll burn - wouldn't that be a ***** from a peaceful God that is full of love!


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

So toss out isms and theisms and what? We join men's drumming circles and perform mutual grooming by campfire?
Give me something besides the pipe dreams of tenured college philosophy profs eyeing the latest freshman thighs in the front row.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Kav said:


> So toss out isms and theisms and what? *We join men's drumming circles and perform mutual grooming by campfire?*


That's the only alternative, huh? Either -theisms (with a hyphen) or Robert Bly.

.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

ohkaaay, I see we have some clarification needed.
Not all christians, and you really should specify which of the multitude of sects you are referencing, take the Bible as 100% empirical truth.
Take my expression of the christian faith, that really old version so conservative and unchanging it rejected Rome, the Eastern Orthodox.
They do not accept SOLA SCRIPTURA as the foundation of faith. Being a Christian is also participating in hte yearly liturgical calender, prayer and living a life whe hope will move close, but never attain the perfection of Christ Jesus. That would be like climbing into our Toyotas and entering a F1 race.
Orthodoxy sees the Bible as both a work of MAN and GOD, inspired yes, but not the sole route to salvation. 
Many of the stories are understood to be metaphor, parable and seeming conflict. the book is still subject to scholarly argument as to translation, content with various apochrypha and even deliberate mistranslation and abuse for earthly pursuits.
It's only a menu to hte meal, a AAA roadmap to Vegas we hope is accurate itself. It isn't the actual meal, it isn't Vegas at sunset as you drive in from L.A. and see the lights on the strip.
If it's such a boooggieman, how do you ever sleep in motels?
I imagine that Gideon Bible in the nightstand is making scratching noises at night, just aching to mess with you.
Good Grief! If that's an example of falsehoods, However do you do taxes every April?


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Call me a deist, if I must be categorized (for census purposes).


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Kav said:


> I imagine that Gideon Bible in the nightstand is making scratching noises at night, just aching to mess with you.


I like those Gideon Bibles. They make good doorstops. :icon_smile_wink:


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## SlowE30 (Mar 18, 2008)

Any time I see an interchange thread over 2 pages, I just skip straight to the end to see what the argument was about. Then I read some of Kav's posts and wonder aloud if he actually knows and has done everything or is just faking it.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Stringfellow said:


> WA,
> 
> I do not hate Christians. I hate religion and here's why:....


Good explaination. Don't agree with all of your reasons. The book is big so there would have to be disagreements among believers and unbelievers and partical believers as there are in any other subject.

The Bible, according to you being a dumb book, how come it tells us that snakes had legs when thousands of years laters scientist finally figure out that snakes had legs? In answer to your belief that God couldn't make all that we can see in 6 days is like a couple of ants talking about a huge hill that they never saw made that man made in one day with bulldozers and dump trucks. First ant says "It must have taken a million years for that hill to have been made". Second ant says "Yes it took us years to make the ant hill we made". After all if the ants didn't see the man building that hill how would they know? So the ants would be right, right?


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## Stringfellow (Jun 19, 2008)

WA said:


> Good explaination. Don't agree with all of your reasons. The book is big so there would have to be disagreements among believers and unbelievers and partical believers as there are in any other subject.
> 
> The Bible, according to you being a dumb book, how come it tells us that snakes had legs when thousands of years laters scientist finally figure out that snakes had legs? In answer to your belief that God couldn't make all that we can see in 6 days is like a couple of ants talking about a huge hill that they never saw made that man made in one day with bulldozers and dump trucks. First ant says "It must have taken a million years for that hill to have been made". Second ant says "Yes it took us years to make the ant hill we made". After all if the ants didn't see the man building that hill how would they know? So the ants would be right, right?


So WA, if it is unknowable by humans why do you seem to know it was created by your God and that his son Jesus is your savior? If there are some things that are bigger than humans' comprehension surely the creator, his wishes, wants, rules, and family members are one of those things.

BTW, I am a breeder of ball pythons. They have legs - they are called spurs. It does not take a great genius to get that they were once legs. Here is a picture of the spurs if you would like to see them. There is much science out there for you my friend.

https://jenny.thegreenes.org/vestigal hips cindy.jpg


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Stringfellow said:


> So WA, if it is unknowable by humans why do you seem to know it was created by your God and that his son Jesus is your savior? If there are some things that are bigger than humans' comprehension surely the creator, his wishes, wants, rules, and family members are one of those things.


I don't believe in a dead God. He has spoken to me a number of times. If he hadn't spoken to me I would be like you. He has told me about some of my future, which has all came to past except for one, not dead yet for that one to come to past. Then there was a bloody noise that last about 14 minutes that wouldn't go away, but only seemed to get worse. So I put before God that I can go to a doctor, which would be some drive, he'll do a lousy job compare God and it will cost money and it will be a waste of my time, or God can do it right and it will be quick. I felt something move across the blood vessal from the inside and the bloody noise was gone. There are more stories. Anyway, you couldn't convince me that there is no God. God says that nature shows you that I Am. Other than that the only other way to know if God exist is when he reveals Himself to you. I don't blame you for being an agnostic.



> BTW, I am a breeder of ball pythons. They have legs - they are called spurs. It does not take a great genius to get that they were once legs. Here is a picture of the spurs if you would like to see them. There is much science out there for you my friend.
> 
> https://jenny.thegreenes.org/vestigal%20hips%20cindy.jpg


As a boy I got laughed at for believing that snakes had legs. Scientist said they did not. When I was in high school scientist were eating there words on that. You will find scientist eat a lot of their words. My faith is certainly not in "science". But good science has been a blessing to this world.

If agnostic means there may or may not be a God and God is religion then how do you explain hating religion and being an agnostic? No doubt some religous people are hard to be around. And then there are those who step on other peoples toes to distract from why they are really there. Criminals use Churchs as false fronts for their crimes so put on an image of being really good Christians when some of them really belong 6 feet under or in a jail ceil.

I never write here to convert anybody to Christianity. I merely write my veiw points, which sometimes includes Christianity. Our disagreements show each other who we are. If we all agreed on everything who would write here? And who has all the right answers? This place has shown me other veiw points I would have never know. About the story of the camel and the needle of the eye, it includes the love of money and doesn't includes Abrams wealth, because Abram didn't love money; It is a warning to those who have there feet in two loves, God and money; for only one can be a master: so those people are saved by the skin of there teeth until they decide which love rules- God or money.


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> Do you know anything about Opus Dei except for what you have read in popular novels?
> 
> I love when apologists such as yourself hark back to 600 years ago during some Islamic "golden age". *Its funny how those same doctors who were bleeding people slowly were able to evolve. Whose medicine is now the standard of the world? Did the East have anything to do with that? No! *


Yes! And many chemists studied Muslim scholars works, and based their theories on these (i.e. Antoine Lavoisier) I don't want to get into a 'which religion is better' fight. I just wanted to point out that Islam is just as bad as Judaism and Christianity, and they have _all_ done terrible things, not just Muslims.



> Curious fact; Both the late Yeltsin and Putin are open members of the Russian Orthodox Church. Yet nobody on the world stage has used that fact as a common ground.


Putin is a terrible person and a terrible president as was Yeltsin.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

SlowE30 Shold you happen upon any of the North Slope homesteaders from the 70s ( Most sadly returned to larger alaskan communities so their growing children could enjoy the perks of society) ask to see their caribou rifles.
They are all Mauser 98s in 7.92x57. These rifles were imported by 'Gunnar' of the Kraft General Store in Kodiak Alaska. He sold packs of Winchester factory for Caribou and a few boxes each of RWS Brenneke TUGs for anything worrisome, like bears. Many of the couples went to Kodiak to work in the cannery just down from the Museum with the Samovars and polar bear skin, two russian flintlock pistols and artifacts loaned by Saint Hermanns cathedral, just up the street.
They would wait for their homesteads to be announced and make fast money. Most avoided THE BREAKERS, a pretty raucus bar that served steaming plates of King Crab and hot buttered rums.
Then they would fly out on Wein Airlines to Anchorage and beyond.
Now, there's some Alaska minutae you can probably confirm with a little homework.Minutae people don't glean from travel magazines.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Thomas Hart said:


> Yes! And many chemists studied Muslim scholars works, and based their theories on these (i.e. Antoine Lavoisier) I don't want to get into a 'which religion is better' fight. I just wanted to point out that Islam is just as bad as Judaism and Christianity, and they have _all_ done terrible things, not just Muslims.


Islam is doing terrible things NOW! I'm not pulling out ancient history in an attempt to justify or putting into context, if you prefer that term, the killing of innocent women and children.

As for the medicine issue, I ask again, whose medical care is the worlds best. The Islamic world may have had a golden age when it was able to build on Greek and Roman discoveries, but what has come of it now. Where is there intellectual capacity? Where do they send their MD's for training? I used to get solicitations on a weekly basis from headhunters looking for medical professionals to work in Kuwait or the Land of Saud.

Why is it that the Islamic world has receded and the Christian world thrived? Its not a question of my religion good, your's bad. It is a valid question of culture, religion and how a society has evolved, or devolved, over the centuries.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Oooops!


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## adhoc (Oct 5, 2008)

Can anyone think of a _single _war started by Buddhists against people of other faiths?


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

adhoc said:


> Can anyone think of a _single _war started by Buddhists against people of other faiths?


there have been budist kings of india that conqured hindu lands, I think that Ashok may be a good example of this. also, part of south east asia that is budist was hindu in the past - the assumption may be that the change in religion came with war.

but you are talking about a handful of instances in 2,500 years of history.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The sadness of buddhism is it's common association with other religions. Tibet for example, combined Buddhism with the native Bon Religion. The 'Forbidden Kingdom' was just that, with many 19th century and early 20th century travelors meeting rather violent ends.
Japan has long held it's version of chinese chen ( Zen) and other buddhist sects with the national religion of Shinto, or ancestor worship and the veneration of the Emperor as a God.Lots of good buddhists were at Pearl Harbour.
In fact, the famous japanese pilot Saburo Sakei was so ashamed of his Emperor's behavior and post war revelations of atrocities, he became a lay monk and pacifist for the rest of his life.
And then we have various western 'New Age' buddhist 'Masters' working the seminar circuit who can be rather attached to worldly things when you confront them in the hallway and demand your $50 back for the BS they're spewing.
Like Red Skelton said, when asked on the street if he liked Buddha, " SURE! but I like margarine just as well!"


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Kav said:


> The sadness of buddhism is it's [sic] common association with other religions. *Tibet for example, combined Buddhism with the native Bon Religion*. The 'Forbidden Kingdom' was just that, with many 19th century and early 20th century travelors [sic] meeting rather violent ends.
> ....


When the Christian Orthodox comment on other religions, is it possible to remove the "ikonic" lens from your eyes or do you sit well with such a innacurate generalization? All of Tibet was much more diverse than such a statement indicates. Then again such an apparently isolated mountaintop kingdom is surely just a small footnote in the great sweep of things even though as an elderly Catholic priest told me this Sunday past "Buddha and Christ were the greatest of brothers."

Even polymaths reach the end of their frontiers.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Quay said:


> an elderly Catholic priest told me this Sunday past "Buddha and Christ were the greatest of brothers."


I wonder what the Pope thinks of that.

This one guy I talked to, he was in his late 30s or early 40s, he thought that everytime a priest talked about God that God was talking through him. The idea that the priest might be wrong he never heard of before.

I think in Seattle an Episcopalian priest had to choose if she is Christian or Muslim, she wanted to be both, but they said you can't be both.

The fake church wants to belong to all the other religions. While we should all get along, those that say we should all belong, I think they have forgotten why they are all seperate.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Quay,
I hate to break this to you, but I spent 6 months in a Soto Zen monastery. That was the fullfillment of a lifelong interest started a LONG time ago when my parents had lunch with an old apartment nieghbor by name of Alan Ginsberg when my father worked briefly in Berkeley. We went to Sausalito and dropped in on another Alan by name of Watts who smoked cigars , drank vodka, and wore a kimono.
Driving afterwards in San Francisco to City Lights Bookstore, the engine literally fell out of our Chrysler in front of the dealership. I said " it was practising non attachment.'" Mr Ginsberg thought that was a HOWL and remembered it years later when I visited while stationed there.
My CHRISTIAN expression of religosity is Orthodox, but I am still a student of all religions, as my avocation and degree require.
I just attended a memorail service in Santa Barbara with Chabbad for the muredered Rebi and wife in Mumbai.
I was, until recently the docent for a new buddhist monastery nearby.
I look at the world a lot of ways ; mandalas, stained glass windows,Dine' sand paintings and sometimes the rose coloured glass of a wine bottle.
Discussing Tibet, it's history and lamaism could take a lifetime, one I've probably explored as much as most lay people.
I have to run, maybe I can mimic a lon pol runner. You DO know who first reported this phenomoenon? Do you know the degree, and alma mater of the translater of the Tibetan Book of the Dead?


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## adhoc (Oct 5, 2008)

WA said:


> I think they have forgotten why they are all seperate.


I'm interested to know - why?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

adhoc said:


> I'm interested to know - why?


From a Christian view point Jesus made us and one of us made Budda, so how can Jesus and Budda be brothers?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

A trinitarian christian view holds that the father,son and holy ghost are three natures of one god.
We accept Jesus the MAN as the one who led a perfect life, one we seek to emulate.
Guatama Siddhartha, a indian prince born @ 563 B.C. ATTAINED the vedic definition of perfection, his original religion being Hinduism, which acts as the foundation for buddhism much as judaism to christianity.
BOTH preached a message of love, compassion ( buddhism is called the way of infinite love and compassion) and BROTHERHOOD.
I think that RC priest had it right.
And, in my ecumenical spirit, I believe that prince Siddhartha is probably in heaven with Jesus and my long deceased cat I called Mouse.
Can I get an Amen?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Kav said:


> Can I get an Amen?


Well have to agreeablely disagree. No amen from me.

What does your orthodox priest say?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

My orthodox priests say a lot of things. Mostly, they tell me to pray, and then run like hell to research what I'm talking about. I can tell you what Mother Anne of the nearby russian monastery said when she learned I've met his Holyness the Dalai Lama. It was 'WOW! you are blessed! Is he as good looking as his photos?"
I could also retell a story I posted here in a old thread.

I was one of a small group of people who sponsored one of the first tibetan lamas in America. Communist chinese imprisoned and shackled him by the wrists so long they were permanently crippled and bent.
We drove him to the mountains to see snow again.

I knew of a priory ( now cathedral) called Saint Andrews of a RC monastic tradition. It's in Pearblossom, on the way to Vegas.I suggested we stop to rest and say hello, having enjoyed their welcome at an annual festival the previous year.

We piled out of my huge Chrysler stationwagon, getting looks from all the devout old catholic women when we heard a cry. This chinese born brother in the order came walking rapidly in a broken stride. HIS wrists were crippled and bent. He had been imprisoned by the Communist Chinese.
They embraced, brown against saffron and red.

Brothers WA, what India and Pakistan need to relearn, as do we all.

As do we all.

Will you give THAT an AMEN?


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Kav said:


> Mr Ginsberg thought that was a *HOWL* ...


Clever allusion to the poem! You rock, Kav :aportnoy:

.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Damn! You is litrate.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Yuh huh.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

I've already said we should get along. And we should be friends. But to say all religions are all the same does not work for me. I could have meet the Dalai Lama too, a few years ago, and talked to people who did. No doubt he is brilliant, kind and generous. A decent man. But if his religious beliefs are built upon the sand instead of the Rock (Jesus is the Rock) when the flood comes he'll be gone along with those that follow him. 

The old Testament is very clear about One God and the many other gods. The New Testament is a continuation. In both Books there is never a mixing of the God of the Bible and the other gods but a clear seperation. Just because it popular to mix religions by some people doesn't make it right. By saying all Gods are the same you are denying the Bible.


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

WA said:


> I've already said we should get along. And we should be friends. But to say all religions are all the same does not work for me. I could have meet the Dalai Lama too, a few years ago, and talked to people who did. No doubt he is brilliant, kind and generous. A decent man. But if his religious beliefs are built upon the sand instead of the Rock (Jesus is the Rock) when the flood comes he'll be gone along with those that follow him.
> 
> The old Testament is very clear about One God and the many other gods. The New Testament is a continuation. In both Books there is never a mixing of the God of the Bible and the other gods but a clear seperation. Just because it popular to mix religions by some people doesn't make it right. By saying all Gods are the same you are denying the Bible.


There are no gods in Buddhism, you can believe in the Holy Trinity while still trying to reach Nirvana.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Kav said:


> Quay,
> I hate to break this to you, but I spent 6 months in a Soto Zen monastery.


Visiting six whole months, and that was the capstone of a lifelong interest? You are an expert then, as experts go these days. :icon_smile: When you speak of "lamaism" you speak as an academic and not so much as a practitioner. (A parallel would be calling one's fellow Roman Catholics "papists" with all the unsavory Protestant baggage attached to that word.)



> I have to run, maybe I can mimic a lon pol runner. You DO know who first reported this phenomoenon?


 If you are talking about a commercially published westerner, then you are likely referring to the famous traveling lady who kneeled at so many places. (She wasn't the first but was certainly the most widely read in the West.) But if you're talking about Tibetans or Han Chinese the texts go back a long way.



> Do you know the degree, and alma mater of the translater [sic] of the Tibetan Book of the Dead?


Any particular version you have in mind? There are more than a few versions out there. Nevertheless, it's improper even for someone with lay academic interest to speak of the _translation_ of the Tibetan Book of the Dead as that name is an early publisher's corruption of what he hoped would be a successful counterpart to the Egyptian book of similar name. It is proper to speak of a _translation_ of "The Great Liberation Upon Hearing in the Intermediate States" or somesuch phrase as that is what is being translated.

I hope you've had a chance to peruse the most recent and most accurately rendered English version of The Great Liberation, the one translated by Gyurme Dorje under the auspices of the Dalai Lama and edited by Graham Coleman and Thupten Jinpa. Dr. Jinpa is an old friend but I'd plug this book in any case as it is a revelation in the best senses of that word. As they said when they used to howl, check it out, man!


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Stepping outside of one's many pursus for six months is no mean feat, and I hardly 'visited' but practised 24/7.

The lady's name was lady Alexandra David Neal and the translater was C. Evans-Wetnz, first anthropology doctorate from UCB.

You really should show a little respect to pioneers who brought Buddhism to the attention of the west, so that further work could be done.

Your attachment to minutae and judgement makes you a mirror of WA's hold on Christianity, both of you ducktaped to a big ol' Firestone whitewall of life.

I'm off to Santa Paula Airport. I'm going to fly over the lemon groves, look at cool cars,motorcycles and aeroplanes and not a few purty girls. Then drink some Old Milwaulkie in memory of Steve and my all to brief acquaintnace.Finish at some greasy spoon diner and drive home chanting NOM MYOHO RENGHE KO in case a CHP is nearby. I've got my Border's Books 'Buddha in a box' gift set, my Khata and a few icons for luck.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

^ Kav, among your many talents, you are a genuinely funny man although you just hate being called out, don't you? :icon_smile: (There are actually folks, even here of all places and gin joints, who dive where you gloss.) From what I've seen, albeit only a little of what is obviously a particular talent, your mind is wide-ranging and still open to old things, no small feat in this rapidly moving à la minute world.

Have a lovely flying trip and do let us know when you come back safely to earth.


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