# Please advise: New England winter clothes for a California native



## lsyx (Sep 19, 2010)

Hi folks, I wanted to get some advice from this forum, as I'm looking to acquire winter clothes for a trip I'll be making to Vermont this December, and some of you are more familiar with New England weather than I am. 

My challenge to myself is to stay warm without looking "stay-puft". The other consideration is that I'd like to have most of these clothes translate back to a useful life in Southern California, where I live (so a heavy emphasis on layering over bulk warmth is good).

Here's the crux of what I have so far:
Filson Mackinaw Cruiser
several OCBDs
a couple of lambswool sweaters
a couple pairs of Bills

Some early questions:
-If I get a Bean Boot in my true size, will I be able to find a sock big enough to make up the difference? If I size down, will I be able to fit a sock big enough to keep my feet warm?

-If I get leather gloves with a cashmere or similar lining, will my hands be warm enough?

-Shaggy dog sweater... thoughts?


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Long johns made of silk or some other Space Age fiber. Get a few pairs. You can wash them in a motel sink if necessary. Silk sock liners are helpful too.

SmartWool socks come in wide variety of configurations. One of them should work with your Bean boots.

What gloves to get depends on how much time you'll be outside. if you're hiking or skiing you'll want technical gloves.

Vermont is approximately twice as cold as NW Connecticut, where we'll be taking the brass monkeys in at night in a few weeks. By December most of Vermont will be quite frigid, with the exception of Burlington, which will also be wet, and the Massachusetts border, which has liberals.


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

lsyx said:


> -If I get a Bean Boot in my true size, will I be able to find a sock big enough to make up the difference? If I size down, will I be able to fit a sock big enough to keep my feet warm?


Go the safe route and order your true size. The extra air works as insulation and will keep your feet a lot warmer. I also recommend some real wool insoles, this helps a lot.

I never really had the need for "technical gloves", even when skiing. In the army we were issued regular knitted wool mittens with a waxed cotton outer mitten. They kept my hands warm enough, even in temparatures well below zero. Wool has the advantage of keeping it's insulating abilities even when damp. I would reccomend wool/shearling lined elk or deerskin gloves. Or knitted wool mittens, while you loose some of the dexterity, they keep your hands a lot warmer.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

As Patrick says, it really depends how much time you're going to be outside. I live in New England, and I seldom wear heavy sweaters, because I work in buildings that are annoyingly over-heated. But if I were going to spend a fair amount of time outdoors, I would wear my shaggy dog a lot more. As a Californian, though, you'll likely find Vermont colder than I do. One warm shetland sweater is a great idea.

Bean boots are a must, and I would get them true to size. You may have to wear a thicker sock for them to fit perfectly, but you'll want to wear a thicker sock with them anyway.

You'll also need a hat, preferably one that covers your ears. For a coat, I'd suggest a heavy pea coat: they are warm without being too bulky, and can be purchased comparatively cheaply.


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

The Mackinaw Cruiser with maybe a sweater underneath should keep you comfortable in even severe conditions. Maybe some moleskine pants or lined tweed pants from Orvis. I am a big fan of technical shells, like the Patagonia Storm, and that would come in handy on the west coat, especially around Carmel, or at least something windproof. (careful though, technically that's _sportswear_) A heavy felt overcoat and a scarf is tough to beat just for the length, not very useful in California though. For gloves I would just get something with a synthetic core from backcountry.com, and keep some simple leather gloves handy for when you need some dexterity. I like deerskin, and sometimes you can find good ones at the hardware store.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

What style (height) of Bean boots work best for winter?


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

We New Englanders wear red and black wool buffalo plaid coats and hats on the weekends. You need to visit Johnson Woolen Mills as soon as you arrive.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

I think the layering principle is important to remember. Yeah I live in the south but when it gets around 18 degrees here I like to layer. If you going to be in and outside most of the day them wear silk long johns, OCBD, a sweater and a jacket. You can always take off the jacket or sweater if you get warm, and can put it back on if you get cool. If you're going to be outside longer then get some hardcore gear like a ski jacket, and insulated pants. One thing I'll say is that your legs are hard to get and keep warm without too much bulk that gets in your way. A heavy jacket isn't a pain but pants are, I'd look at getting some flannel/fleece lined pants. I have a pair of flannel lined khakis from Eddie Bauer, and they are just enough to keep me warm but not too bulky to get in my way, they are great with a pair of long johns for extra warmth. I also agree about a heavy pea coat, its what I wear mostly and its great, warm but not bulky, and you must get a hat. If you get a lined newsboy or a fedora then get those behind the ear ear muffs. I used them in college while playing baseball in subfreezing temps and they really work, or get a hat that covers your ears. As for gloves, don't skimp too much, you will be miserable if your hands or feet get cold and get wool or smart wool socks and stay away from cotton because if you're outside you may sweat and cotton will soak it up and then you will be cold and wet when you stop being active. If you're ok with a work look but want a good jacket to keep you warm check out a quilted Carhartt jacket, I've got one and its great in winter. My Carhartt and a long sleeve shirt and I'm good outside for hours.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

www.weather.com


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## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

Nothing beats down fill in the middle of January.


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## TommyDawg (Jan 6, 2008)

Patrick06790 said:


> Vermont is approximately twice as cold as NW Connecticut, where we'll be taking the brass monkeys in at night in a few weeks. By December most of Vermont will be quite frigid, with the exception of Burlington, which will also be wet, and the Massachusetts border, which has liberals.


   Right on, Patrick!


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Might want to pick up a pair of Alden shell cordovan snowshoes. Very practical, but costly.


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## yossarian (Apr 17, 2007)

I recommend the Bean Norwegian sweater. Nice and warm.


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## geologic (Oct 6, 2010)

*I once moved from the warm, sunny West to New England*

That Filson jacket is not going to be warm enough by itself for a Californian, even with a wool sweater. You need either a warm insulating layer (I concur with the down suggestion -- just layer a basic down vest between the sweater and jacket), or a thicker wool coat with a tight weave (could be a thick wool or wool/cashmere overcoat or could be something like from Johnson Mills).

You'll definitely want some good boots. The Bean boot will do well for you, or you could go with any of the classic Red Wing / Chippewa / etc. work boots. You won't regret going with the 8" or 10" -- you don't want snow coming over the tops.

For me, plain leather gloves hardly needed a lining -- I found they did a great job of cutting the chill, and most importantly, stopping the wind. That being said, your mileage may vary, and you certainly won't regret having a wool/shearling/other insulating lining.

If you're going to be wearing Bills, instead of wool flannel or wool twill, long johns are a good idea. You'll want about 2-3 pairs, and I'd go with wool (Duofold's are good) or silk.


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## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

I've lived in CT for 6 years (Long Island before that). Here's my winter gear:

1 insulated bean boots, 3 thick wool bean socks
2 shetlands, thick
1 ridiculously thick flannel shirt
1 wool watch cap
1 tweed cap
2 scarves, rough wool and cashmere
1 cashmere gloves
1 p-coat
2 tweed jackets

The key is layering as you already know. Get the Bean boots in the recommended size and buy Bean's (or Smartwool's) thick-ass socks for fit. You actually want a looser fit for air circulation, as noted above. Get a hat. Native Newenglanders tend to avoid hats until the coldest week of the year, but your ears will probably start to sting in a few weeks. The watch wool is great if you don't mind casual; I am partial to a tweed cap myself. As others said, the Mackinaw will not be warm enough unless you wear insulated underwear every day and get a very thick sweater, and even then the coldest days might be too cold. A p-coat is great because it's two layers of wool on your chest. Gloves are probably the least important item (unless you work outside or have to ride a bike): that's what pockets are for.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Charles Saturn said:


> A heavy felt overcoat


Please tell me more about felt overcoats.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

xcubbies said:


> You need to visit Johnson Woolen Mills as soon as you arrive.


It's in Johnson.

But don't let them sell you any magnets.

Go next door to Marvins and buy some syrup. From their own sugarbush. Dean and Deluca once sold it. Fancy grade is best for everything but cooking. Their niece has Elmore Mountain Bakery. Marvin's sell it. Great bread.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

lsyx said:


> Hi folks, I wanted to get some advice from this forum, as I'm looking to acquire winter clothes for a trip I'll be making to Vermont this December, and some of you are more familiar with New England weather than I am.
> 
> My challenge to myself is to stay warm without looking "stay-puft". The other consideration is that I'd like to have most of these clothes translate back to a useful life in Southern California, where I live (so a heavy emphasis on layering over bulk warmth is good).
> 
> ...


I think you need to tell us where you're going in Vermont, what you plan to do and how long you'll be staying. 25 Below at night and some days below zero are possible even in December. So is lots of snow, ice and even freezing rain if a warm front rides up. A Vermont saying: "Don't like the weather? Stick around!" For more information call Bob in the tower. 802-454-7707.

Unfortunately, some of the clothing you might need for a December Vermont probably won't translate to most of California.


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## Acacian (Jul 10, 2007)

It really does depend where you're going to be. There's a difference between Bennington and Burlington or between White River Junction and East Burke.

If you're going to Burlington, you're going to be miserable in the Filson, as the wind coming off Lake Champlain will go right through it. 

I'd go with something windproof like this as the top layer:

and then go with a sweater and shirt underneath.

But even more important are wool socks and a good hat. Maybe something like this:


Do not go to VT without wool socks and a winter hat.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

For your ears:

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/23688?from=SR&feat=sr


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## Jerrold (Mar 22, 2009)

I am concerned that Bean boots, at least the basic non-insulated model, will not be sufficiently warm for Vermont in December. Let us know where you are going and what you will be doing. Northern Vermont is really cold and it could be snowy in December. In Maine if we are outside for periods of time in winter, insulated "pac" boots from Kamik can work with wool socks. Also, insulted Red Wings or similar styles designed for outdoor winter wear are an option. For footwear, be mindful of having adequate treads due to icy, slippery conditions. I prefer mittens over gloves if it is really cold and you are outdoors. Gloves isolate your fingers and they get cold easily. A wool cap, Nordic or cross country ski style that covers your ears is helpful. I wear layers and might include a wool or fleece vest, sweater, and an insulated outer shell or Beans insulated Adirondack or Barn coat. I like to wear cords or wool pants and always wool socks, especially Smartwool.


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

Acacian said:


> But even more important are wool socks and a good hat. Maybe something like this:


Does Americans have some kind of all-wool phobia? Why in the world would a wool hat need a liner?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Jerrold said:


> I am concerned that Bean boots, at least the basic non-insulated model, will not be sufficiently warm for Vermont in December. Let us know where you are going and what you will be doing. Northern Vermont is really cold and it could be snowy in December. In Maine if we are outside for periods of time in winter, insulated "pac" boots from Kamik can work with wool socks. Also, insulted Red Wings or similar styles designed for outdoor winter wear are an option. For footwear, be mindful of having adequate treads due to icy, slippery conditions. I prefer mittens over gloves if it is really cold and you are outdoors. Gloves isolate your fingers and they get cold easily. A wool cap, Nordic or cross country ski style that covers your ears is helpful. I wear layers and might include a wool or fleece vest, sweater, and an insulated outer shell or Beans insulated Adirondack or Barn coat. I like to wear cords or wool pants and always wool socks, especially Smartwool.


I think this is excellent advice.

Do folks in Maine favor down for extended Winter outdoor activity? Seems to be the norm for many in Vermont.

It's also likely that the OP's tolerance for cold, particularly if SoCal, will be different than those more accustomed to it. But if someone plans on spending most of their time either indoor or in a heated auto, it's a very different issue. Added is the unpredictability of Vermont weather. Recent Decembers have trended warmer than historical averages but cold snaps can drop temperatures 40 degrees in hours.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

fiddler said:


> Does Americans have some kind of all-wool phobia? Why in the world would a wool hat need a liner?


As the product description says, "for an itch-free fit." Wanting to avoid an itching forehead doesn't seem like a phobia. And wool on one's skin does itch after a while. Possibly it's something one can get used to if one wears wool a lot (?).


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> It's also likely that the OP's tolerance for cold, particularly if SoCal, will be different than those more accustomed to it.


I'm from So Cal and have actually found that when visiting a cold-weather area I'm generally comfortable with LESS warm clothing than the locals. My speculative explanation is that someone from a warm area has extra psychological (and maybe physical) reserves of tolerance for cold, compared to someone who has to deal with it for months on end and for whom cold weather is not a fun change of pace.

I'm talking comfort, not safety, and of course I'm not advocating going into a seriously cold environment unprepared. Frostbite doesn't care where you're from.


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## NCProf (Oct 21, 2010)

Hi. I lived in Western MA and North-Eastern NY (near VT) for many years, but I grew up in Florida and now live in NC, so I can relate. So here's the thing: the best clothes for your trip will vary depending on what you're planning to do.

*1. Are you planning to spend a lot of time outdoors? *If not, then you really don't need anything special. A medium-weight lambswool sweater, some corduroy or wool-flannel pants, a wool car coat (or similar), any shoe with a rubber tread, scarf, hat, and gloves, and you're good. I'm a big fan of Smartwool socks in the winter -- the thinner, less sporty ones. But if so, then...

*2. Are you planning to do any strenuous sports outdoors (downhill or xc skiing, skating, showshoeing, etc.), or are you mostly going to stroll around? *If not, then the above clothes, plus a heavier sweater and some silk or polypropylene long underwear will do it. I'm a big fan of flannel- or fleece-lined jeans and khakis -- Bean has 'em and they look like Bean, J Crew used to have 'em (not sure if they still do) in slightly more stylish versions. I've never tried Bean boots, but they always seemed like they'd be cold to me; if you're planning to walk around a lot in Vermont in the winter, you might go for Gore-tex lined leather hiking boots (Vasque, etc.). You certainly won't look out of place.
*
3. And if you're going skiing, etc.,* then obviously the clothes will depend on the activity, but in general what you want is many layers of polypropylene / technical fibers that you can mix and match depending on how strenuously you're moving, plus a Gore-tex shell. Note: skiing in VT is a _very_ different experience from skiing in the Sierras -- you'll want to wear much warmer clothes, probably. Ah, Mammoth...


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

If you are wearing a snowmobile suit and Sorel boots it really doesn't matter if you're wearing Bills or Hickey Freeman underneath. Blaze orange or camoflage are preferred over muted, autumn-toned tweed.


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## fiddler (Apr 19, 2010)

Kurt N said:


> As the product description says, "for an itch-free fit." Wanting to avoid an itching forehead doesn't seem like a phobia. And wool on one's skin does itch after a while. Possibly it's something one can get used to if one wears wool a lot (?).


I've never had this problem. I'm Norwegian, so I've been taught to always keep wool next to skin. The itching might be an issue with people having experience with shoddy wool made out of recycled fiber. Then of course, some people are more sensitive than others. 
My only experience with fleece lining is that traps the moisture, and certainly doesn't keep you warm for very long when it's below zero. I've had fleece lined collars which started to form ice crystals, and since then I have avoided the stuff. 
Same goes for boots insulated with Gore-Tex, or some other technical material. Once it gets wet, you're never getting the warmth back. Unlined leather actually works best, provided you have a solid pair (or two pairs) of wool socks, and a proper inner sole.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

fiddler - fwiw, I quite agree.


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## lsyx (Sep 19, 2010)

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I certainly have a multitude of opinions to synthesize here.

Answers to questions from above:
My dad, who I'm visiting, lives in Rutland, so we would likely stay in the area, and if we traveled, my guess is that it would be to a more southerly point with warmer weather. I've never visited in the winter so I'm not sure how we would split time between being indoors, being outdoors, and doing any winter sports. I'll be staying about a week, and my tolerance for cold, while probably low relative to Vermonters, is higher than many of my fellow Southern Californians, which still isn't saying much.

Here is my game plan, and I know I'm not going to win you all over :icon_smile_big:

Because I'm not sure what we'll decide to do once I'm there, my personal inclination is to stock up on "doing normal people stuff" items to bring to and fro, and if we decide to do anything requiring technical gear, we can buy that stuff in-area and I can leave it packed away at my dad's place for the next winter I'm visiting. I'm going for the Bean boots, because I want to, dammit. I'll get them big and tall to make sure I can get good protection and fit a crapload of wool sock inside. I'm going to get a down vest and maybe another shell layer, because yes, the Filson breathes and wind is an issue. A few wool sweaters, a bunch of long johns, mittens for the hands, a stocking cap for the head, and maybe a pair or two of pants that're more suited to cold (heavy cords or flannel-lined). Other things I'll buy in Vermont as I progressively realize where I was stupid. :biggrin2:


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

I moved from CA to OH and found out that I didn't own a real coat, sweater, hat, etc. Here is what I would recommend for a cold weather Bean starter kit:

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/56488?feat=502857-GN2
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/60845?feat=502821-GN2

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/31178?feat=506794-GN2 (and follow their sizing directions--size down)
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/65583?feat=502953-GN2
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/65580?feat=502856-GN2
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/33721?feat=502854-GN2

That plus your normal clothes should get you through your first winter just fine. I was usually fine in sub zero conditions as long as I wore a hat, coat, and scarf.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

Wool coats and waterproof boots. New England winters rarely get damn cold (as they do in, e.g., MN), and they tend to be damp (and thus felt in the bones).


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

Pr B said:


> Wool coats and waterproof boots. New England winters rarely get damn cold (as they do in, e.g., MN), and they tend to be damp (and thus felt in the bones).


True, Rutland just gets sloppy. So the boots are a good call.


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## S. Kelly (Jan 19, 2008)

Get a pair of corduroy 5 pocket jeans from Lands End, I love mine in the winter.


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