# Very high cutaway collars?



## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

Anyone know where I can buy a shirt with a HIGH cutaway collar for less than say $70USD? I like cutaway collars, but they always seem to sit too low on my long neck. I like the high-collar Edwardian look of the Prince of Kent below... but his collars don't seem to be true cutaways (and his tie knot is too big). I'm wondering, is it even physically possible for a high collar (e.g. with a 2 or 3-button collar band ) to be cutaway or will the points then levitate up off the shirt at that point?? I want the normal cutaway collars one sees around to sit about an inch higher up on my throat...










Oh, and mytailor's "back height" and "point length" adjustment option DOES NOT create this effect (customer service didn't even know what a 'collar band' was)


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## Sufferable Fob (Aug 26, 2009)

Probably not.


I've been considering using detachable collars for this reason, actually.

The collars you want will probably need to be custom-made, but it could add up to $70 or less if you get inexpensive shirts.



Well, I mean, technically, I'm sure you could find someone to do it for that much or less - but you get what you pay for.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

Prince Michael of Kent (or "P-MOK" as he is known in the hood) is kind of a one-off so I would say its very unlikely you would ever find this guy's shirts on the rack somewhere. Collars that high scream "custom" but its debatable whether or not they scream "good idea". If you really want collars that high I would make sure that you have the neck for them and that you are willing to show that much collar above the back of your jacket collar. 

As for the tie knot - its not big, its P-MOK huge, the ties must be 70" long and custom as well.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*Turnbull and Asser used to make a high spread collar ....*

several years ago. You can see them in the Guiness film Tinker, Tailer, Soldier, Spy. They would certainly be more than $70. Udeshi and New and Lingwood make a relatively high cutaway which they term an extreme cutaway. See their London websites


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

deanayer said:


> Prince Michael of Kent (or "P-MOK" as he is known in the hood) is kind of a one-off so I would say its very unlikely you would ever find this guy's shirts on the rack somewhere. Collars that high scream "custom" but its debatable whether or not they scream "good idea". If you really want collars that high I would make sure that you have the neck for them and that you are willing to show that much collar above the back of your jacket collar.
> 
> As for the tie knot - its not big, its P-MOK huge, the ties must be 70" long and custom as well.


I think Prince Michael needs a high collar because he does have a long neck and sloping shoulders. The huge knots are just his thing, but fashion has sort of caught up with him, hasn't it? These days I see a lot of big tie knots.


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## Sufferable Fob (Aug 26, 2009)

I have leaned towards higher collars since I find them more flattering to my build.

I never really would have thought of them, but I wore one once, and it looked better than showing off my pencil-neck.


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

I gave my cutaway collar shirt to the tailor, she added a 3/4'' strip to the base of the collar band... the result looks better than before, but the "back height" of the collar (the exposed part that folds down) doesn't touch my shirt anymore and the collar points in the front have come closer together (diminishing the cutaway). The other result is that the collar sits very high up on the back of my neck (i feel it increased 1 inch back there) but sags down in the front (maybe it only got raised half an inch up there) ... so it's not like I can just buy a cutaway and have it altered to solve this problem.


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

dfloyd said:


> several years ago. You can see them in the Guiness film Tinker, Tailer, Soldier, Spy. They would certainly be more than $70. Udeshi and New and Lingwood make a relatively high cutaway which they term an extreme cutaway. See their London websites


That TV series was made in 1979 and probably shown in the US in the early 80s.
The clothes as I recall were Savile Row of the era. At the time high spread
collars were available at most price points. I have a T&A shirt from then.
The collar is more than 2'' in the back and correspondingly high in the front.
It's in my "clothing museum".


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

I found these, but they're a bit pricey and in the UK  plus it's not clear how you order them :

https://www.ajkwafo.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=694


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Ho-ho. We've got three collar buttons, folks, count 'em, three! Do I hear four? Anyone want to go to four? Anyone?


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

I happened to notice some Neiman Marcus brand shirts with fairly high collars (2 button, of course) at a Last Call store the other day; I think they were in that 70ish price range.

I don't know what they're actually called, but you'd probably find them displayed at any LC store.

DH


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## udeshi (Sep 29, 2005)

you'll need bespoke / custom, and from someone who knows what he is doing, so for $70, sorry not going to happen. You can try yourself, but then you'll probably have the experience Svenn had. We could have told you that before that shirt was ruined.

Then you need bespoke ties, but they can only be made after the shirt is perfected, or you try thrift stores for wide 70s ties, then you need the deeper cuffs to correspond with the new collars, then you need the larger cufflinks, and new jacket collars that sit higher, then you need to invest in braces so one stands upright, then....


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

People always talk about the Prince of Kent's massive knots, but then again, can you imagine what that beard would look like with a four-in-hand?


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

udeshi said:


> you'll need bespoke / custom, and from someone who knows what he is doing, so for $70, sorry not going to happen.


Well, I'm thinking of crawling back to mytailor and just hope detailed instructions attached to my order will be sufficient to do the job... and their custom shirts are $70. The question now is, what should the instructions be? Do I tell them to raise the collar band, and then extend the back height and point length by that SAME amount? maybe there's another tailoring forum I should ask this at?


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Svenn said:


> Well, I'm thinking of crawling back to mytailor and just hope detailed instructions attached to my order will be sufficient to do the job... and their custom shirts are $70. The question now is, what should the instructions be? Do I tell them to raise the collar band, and then extend the back height and point length by that SAME amount? maybe there's another tailoring forum I should ask this at?


Try sending a picture of what you want?


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

brokencycle said:


> Try sending a picture of what you want?


Can you trust them to read it properly? I thought the people who actually did the tailoring were in Hong Kong or something, and wouldn't understand complicated instructions... or maybe I should just send in something like this:


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

udeshi said:


> you'll need bespoke / custom, and from someone who knows what he is doing, so for $70, sorry not going to happen. You can try yourself, but then you'll probably have the experience Svenn had. We could have told you that before that shirt was ruined.
> 
> Then you need bespoke ties, but they can only be made after the shirt is perfected, or you try thrift stores for wide 70s ties, then you need the deeper cuffs to correspond with the new collars, then you need the larger cufflinks, and new jacket collars that sit higher, then you need to invest in braces so one stands upright, then....


Why would you need bespoke ties?


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## ismailmurtadza (Aug 4, 2009)

The collar is very elegant .HRH The Prince of Wales does not wear any other collar styles.

ismail


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

Svenn said:


> Can you trust them to read it properly? I thought the people who actually did the tailoring were in Hong Kong or something, and wouldn't understand complicated instructions... or maybe I should just send in something like this:


As we say in the US (not politely), "you may be pissing onto the wind".
Give it a try with your Hong Kong or Chinese tailors. Be prepared
to spend $70 for unsatisfactory results. On the other hand, you
may be lucky.


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

Well, I found the perfect collar! unfortunately it's on a european website with a minimum shirt cost of like $200... but here it is, the "high elysee" :

https://www.listerouge-paris.com/styles/styles.php










I'm really getting frustrated here. This is f-king ridiculous that there's like tens of thousands of shirt companies out there selling millions of different styles, but it never occurred to _anyone_ to make a cutaway collar _higher_. I can't believe how unoriginal most guys are- they'll fiddle around nitpicking about the the frick'n buttons on their cuffs or some crap with their shoes- but it never occurs to anyone to change the second thing most people look at after your face- your collar!! ugh, i'm thinking about getting some fabric and doing the sewing myself, then i'll rip off the collar of some walmart shirt and sew mine on... all for 19.95... success! :aportnoy:


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

If you intend to go bespoke why not just show a picture of Prince Michael of Kent and say "give me this"? I would let them figure it out rather than assuming you need to lead them by the hand. Maybe the guys at Cego in NYC could craft you something and add it to a batch of shirts since they generally require a multi-shirt order. You also get the one "demo shirt" before they do the larger batch so you get a chance to see if it works for you in real life the same way as you are picturing it in your mind.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

deanayer said:


> If you intend to go bespoke why not just show a picture of Prince Michael of Kent and say "give me this"? I would let them figure it out rather than assuming you need to lead them by the hand. Maybe the guys at Cego in NYC could craft you something and add it to a batch of shirts since they generally require a multi-shirt order. You also get the one "demo shirt" before they do the larger batch so you get a chance to see if it works for you in real life the same way as you are picturing it in your mind.


I doubt CEGO would do this for anywhere near $70. But maybe Carl will see this thread and weigh in. I'd be curious what he thinks at any rate.

One domestic maker who could almost certainly do it is Geneva Shirtmakers of NYC. IIRC, they custom-make those really tall tab collars for which Tom Wolfe is known.

A few other comments:

--P-MOK has his ties made to go with those huge collars, and both are trademarks. If you look up pics of him in military uniform, the collar and tie are just like his civvy-street kit. Obviously they didn't come out of some supply sergeant's reg-issue storage closet somewhere.

--The fist-sized knots you see around nowadays are called "footballer's knots" not "the Prince Michael." Telling, in my view. P-MOK was there first, of course.

--That shirt with the 3-button collar (TML used to sell one like it as part of its fashion-forward "Francomb" range) was never meant to be worn buttoned. It's a clubbing shirt, not a classic gentleman's shirt such as the OP is seeking.

--I like that Haut Elysee collar and frankly, $200 seems like a reasonable price.

--One of the cheap MTM shirtmakers is, I would estimate, about 95% guaranteed to ignore/misinterpret your instructions and screw up your order. Maybe they will get it right on the second try, maybe not. I once bailed and gave shirts away to the Salvation Army after one of the traveling MTM places got details wrong three times in a row. Far, far safer to go with a firm that actually offers this kind of thing as part of its regular range.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Srynerson said:


> Why would you need bespoke ties?


Because he will have a _very_ large space in his collar for the tie's knot to fill. Not only will the knot need to be thick enough, it will also have to be "tall" enough - which is a function of the tie's width at the point where the tie crosses over itself facing the viewer.


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## udeshi (Sep 29, 2005)

beat me to it CuffDaddy. 

The High Elysee won't be high enough for you, you probably want at least two inches in the back collar height, the Liste Rouge will be less than that. We used to do them with 2' bands. Also look at Roger Moore in the Man with the golden gun, he wears a high collar in that I believe.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

udeshi said:


> beat me to it CuffDaddy.


I'm particularly attuned to it since I just started ordering ties from Sam Hober so that I could control that dimension. I don't want a particularly bulky knot, but I do want one "tall" enough to fill the space between the points of my collar... ergo, a tie with a normal lining, a normal width blade, but a slightly wider-than-customary "throat."


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Svenn said:


> Well, I found the perfect collar! unfortunately it's on a european website with a minimum shirt cost of like $200... but here it is, the "high elysee" :
> 
> https://www.listerouge-paris.com/styles/styles.php
> 
> ...


Which one of those collars is best with the following six types of suits listed below?

1. Double breasted jacket with a double breasted vest
2. Double breasted jacket with a single breasted vest
3. Double breasted jacket with no vest
4. Single breasted jacket with a double breasted vest
5. Single breasted jacket with a single breasted vest
6. Single breasted jacket with no vest

I am guessing the Elysee, Italian and Venetian collars are best for the six types of suits listed above. However, I do NOT know that for a fact. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong? Thank you dearly and sincerely in advance!


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

udeshi said:


> beat me to it CuffDaddy.
> 
> The High Elysee won't be high enough for you, you probably want at least two inches in the back collar height, the Liste Rouge will be less than that. We used to do them with 2' bands. Also look at Roger Moore in the Man with the golden gun, he wears a high collar in that I believe.


You're a shirt maker udeshi? did you find you had to greatly increase the "point length" when you raised the band up 2'' ?


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## udeshi (Sep 29, 2005)

Svenn - depends how long the point length was to start with, physique and personal preference of the wearer. 3.5' total should do it. Our standard collars are 2' high and have 3.5' point length on the cutaway collar. For full effect you would probably need 2 3/8' high collar band at the back.


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks Udeshi. It's completely unrelated, but I found this photo below from 1905 when the Russians were forced to negotiate with the Japanese after their defeat in the Russo-Japanese War. I noted the high-collared Russian second from the left (that's a little to high for me), but was most humored by the fact that _every delegate there has a mustache_!


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## Friedrichsen (Oct 8, 2009)

Not to hijack or anything, but I love the fabric and cut of the suit(Prince of Kent)- I gots to get me one of those


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## raumil (Jan 10, 2009)

udeshi said:


> Svenn - depends how long the point length was to start with, physique and personal preference of the wearer. 3.5' total should do it. Our standard collars are 2' high and have 3.5' point length on the cutaway collar. For full effect you would probably need 2 3/8' high collar band at the back.


Wow. I really love the fact that your standard shirts have a 2 inch high back. I could only wish all shirtmakers used this standard.


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## raumil (Jan 10, 2009)

udeshi said:


> beat me to it CuffDaddy.
> 
> The High Elysee won't be high enough for you, you probably want at least two inches in the back collar height, the Liste Rouge will be less than that. We used to do them with 2' bands. Also look at Roger Moore in the Man with the golden gun, he wears a high collar in that I believe.


You are absolutely right Mr. Udeshi. Roger wears a collar at least two inches tall throughout the entire movie, his shirts also have two darts in the lower back. He's tailor *Douglas Hayward* made them for him.

Another thing about Liste Rouge useless you go to their NY location and get measure by their people you might not get what you want.


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## raumil (Jan 10, 2009)

here is a pic...........


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Udeshi*

Gentlemen

He does a very beautiful, elegant cutaway!!
Needs to get online, so we can buy

Jimmy


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Svenn said:


> Thanks Udeshi. It's completely unrelated, but I found this photo below from 1905 when the Russians were forced to negotiate with the Japanese after their defeat in the Russo-Japanese War. I noted the high-collared Russian second from the left (that's a little to high for me), but was most humored by the fact that _every delegate there has a mustache_!


Not that it's anything more than tangentially related to the thread topic or anything, but IIRC getting this particular set of suited-and-booted, high-collared blokes together was why Teddy Roosevelt became the first U.S. president to win a Nobel Peace Prize.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

raumil said:


> You are absolutely right Mr. Udeshi. Roger wears a collar at least two inches tall throughout the entire movie, his shirts also have two darts in the lower back. He's tailor *Douglas Hayward* made them for him.
> 
> Another thing about Liste Rouge useless you go to their NY location and get measure by their people you might not get what you want.


Sir Roger's shirts I believe were made by Frank Foster. His collars were very tall in the back, but not extraordinarily tall in the front. He just had long collar points. By the 80s, his collars still still had the tall height in the back and long points, but the front height was normal. They sit fairly low on his neck.


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

Matt S said:


> His collars were very tall in the back, but not extraordinarily tall in the front.


I'm trying to do the opposite- relatively tall in the back but about 1 inch higher up on my throat than normal in the front. I asked mytailor to do it, we'll see if they can. I think it will require a flared collar band, not like the usual straight ones that are the same height all around the neck.


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## udeshi (Sep 29, 2005)

Yes Frank Foster made some of the Moore shirts.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

deanayer said:


> Prince Michael of Kent (or "P-MOK" as he is known in the hood) is kind of a one-off so I would say its very unlikely you would ever find this guy's shirts on the rack somewhere. ...
> As for the tie knot - its not big, its P-MOK huge, the ties must be 70" long and custom as well.


Brilliant! :icon_smile_big:


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## raumil (Jan 10, 2009)

If you are looking for a tall collar cut-away shirt for less than $70.00 try the Hawes and Curtis, Curtis line cut-away. Here is a pic:






It is $70.00 including shipping and it will get here from England in about 4 days. I have it and it is nice. The fabric is poplin and is kind of thin (you can see a little of the undershirt). The collar is 2 inches on the back. It is slim fit and in has two darts on the lower back. Around your kidney area. It comes in a nice box and it has extra plastic collar-stays. Sometimes they have sales and the shirts go for about $40.00 without shipping.


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## raumil (Jan 10, 2009)

Matt S said:


> Sir Roger's shirts I believe were made by Frank Foster.


Didn't know that, thanks.


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

*SUCCESS!!*

SUCCESS!! THANKS RAUMIL :aportnoy:

The Hawes and Curtis 'York Slim Fit' you recommended and the 'Hurst Slim Fit' I found myself arrived in the mail today and the look is PERFECT! It's not quite as extreme as the Prince of Kent but it is quite high and dignified looking, IMHO it adds a distinctive and dignified look that will add a subtle gravitas to my overall appearance. I will post pics later (because I actually ordered one size too big, so it'll be a week before the right ones arrive)

A happy end to this thread!


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## mt_spiffy (Apr 12, 2008)

Svenn said:


> I found these, but they're a bit pricey and in the UK  plus it's not clear how you order them :
> 
> https://www.ajkwafo.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=694


I LOVE these. www.verse9neckwear.com has similar 3 button shirts.


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## Jack2000 (Oct 26, 2009)

I've gotten a number of high two button collars from Jantzen tailor. They get a lot of mixed reviews, but I've had good success with them.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

deanayer said:


> Prince Michael of Kent (or "P-MOK" as he is known in the hood) is kind of a one-off so I would say its very unlikely you would ever find this guy's shirts on the rack somewhere. Collars that high scream "custom" but its debatable whether or not they scream "good idea". If you really want collars that high I would make sure that you have the neck for them and that you are willing to show that much collar above the back of your jacket collar.
> 
> As for the tie knot - its not big, its P-MOK huge, the ties must be 70" long and custom as well.


He may not be able to afford them any longer. He is selling family heirlooms because Her Majesty the Queen is being forced by the Labour government to charge him rent for his apartment at Kensington Palace. The heirlooms are being auctioned by Christie's of London, and there are some very good deals.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Svenn said:


> I found these, but they're a bit pricey and in the UK  plus it's not clear how you order them :
> 
> https://www.ajkwafo.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=694


Those shirts are something -- I'm just not sure what that something is. I had a two-button collared shirt a couple years ago when Lands' End was selling them.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

It appears as if HRH Prince Michael of Kent is fond of high collars even in non-traditional clothing:

https://photos.thefirstpost.co.uk/assets/library/081017intown--122424291491722800.jpg

I'd also say that he is rather thrifty; note one sleeve of this double-breasted blazer has three buttons while the other has two:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowb...Prince-Michael-strolling-hand-hand--wife.html


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

hockeyinsider said:


> I'd also say that he is rather thrifty; note one sleeve of this double-breasted blazer has three buttons while the other has two:
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowb...Prince-Michael-strolling-hand-hand--wife.html


It's difficult to tell from the picture, but I think he may just be leaving the first button of the left sleeve undone.

ADDENDUM: Although this does create an interesting "Captain-Kirk-Destroys-A-Computer-Using-A-Logic-Problem" moment for those who believe that only despicable nouveau riche cads unbutton their surgeon cuffs -- either (A) Prince Michael has lost a button off his sleeve but is still walking around in public wearing a damaged jacket(!); or (B) Prince Michael is wearing a jacket with poorly made sleeve buttonholes that allow the buttons to accidentally come undone(!!); or (C) Prince Michael has unbuttoned his sleeve in public!!!


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Srynerson said:


> "those who believe that only despicable nouveau riche cads unbutton their surgeon cuffs"


A thoroughly ridiculous proposition, as you obviously understand.


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## Svenn (Sep 10, 2009)

Alright, I've been wanting to post a pic of Hawes Curtis' "York Slilm Fit" high-cutaway collar to conclude this thread, but am having issues with digital upload. I have however found a very similar pic in the suits of Vacca:


















The collar in that shirt is very similar to the York, but the York is perhaps even taller and a bit more cutaway. A slight disadvantage is that the collar band is VERY visible behind the tie knot. Like the Prince of Kent, there is up to 2 inches of shirt collar reveal above the jacket collar on the back of my neck. I found out this was the style on Entourage for a while (not sure if that's a good or bad thing). But I do believe it adds an air or formality to my appearance- does anyone disagree and think it appears pompous or flashy?


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