# UK gun laws: What if Shaver wants to arm up?



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I ask this not to start a fight about gun control but to obtain information. Would those of you on the other side of the pond care to enlighten me as to how UK gun laws work? What if our beloved Shaver turned survivalist or decided he had finally had enough with, I don't know, Simon Cowell. So he decides to buy a Glock 19. What must Shaver do? What's the process? How long would it take him?

I'm kidding about Shaver of course, but seriously, how hard or easy is it for you to go buy a Glock over in Blighty?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I like guns, as evidenced by this thread - especially the last few pages.

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?119458-anyone-here-a-gun-enthusiast

I could obtain pretty much anything I liked this evening, Moss Side being just across the way from me. They don't nick-name our city Gunchester for nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime_in_south_Manchester


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

So there's effectively as little regulation as there is here?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^ If you have access to a wad of cash and consort with criminals then there is very little regulation.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> ^ If you have access to a wad of cash and consort with criminals then there is very little regulation.


Of course. But what if you wanted to buy your weapon legally?

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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^ umm. We have reached the perimeter of my knowledge here. Legally, eh? I have never given the matter any consideration but expect that there may be some laws, especially post Hungerford and Dunblane.

Fun fact: I was once a sales representative for a company that specialised in toy/replica guns and was plying my trade in Dunblane the morning of the massacre. As you may imagine, I decided that orders may have been decidedly limited and so I elected to hop in the Mondeo for the drive back down to England.......

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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Chouan? Langham?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Chouan? Langham?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*flounces out of thread with feelings well and truly hurt* Exit Shaver.

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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> *flounces out of thread with feelings well and truly hurt* Exit Shaver.
> 
> .
> .
> ...


What? Dearest Shaver, I meant no offense. I merely wish to know the state of UK gun laws.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> I like guns, as evidenced by this thread - especially the last few pages.
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?119458-anyone-here-a-gun-enthusiast
> 
> ...


By the way, I love your gun posts on that thread, but I must say I never cared for the Luger's aesthetics. Maybe it's from watching too many war movies, as I associate the gun with the 'bad guys.' No, that's not true, I love the looks of plenty of Wehrmacht weapons, not to speak of the Luftwaffe's gorgeous machines. But based purely on aesthetics I prefer the Colt 1911, or the cold functionality of the Glock.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

So I found this, which is a rather interesting read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

Among the take-aways: UK used to have a US-style approach to the 'right to bear arms" grounded in the religious wars of the 17th century, basically to keep Papist kings from disarming protestant subjects. That changed with the 20th century when other concerns prompted the UK to reverse its approach and begin strictly limiting access to weapons.

(I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that there's a link between England's 17th century legal approach to the 'right to bear arms' and America's late-18th century Second Amendment. We've preserved the 17th century principle; England has moved on.)

Many forms of guns can be purchased legally, however it all requires a Firearms Certificate issued by local police, who have to interview the person, interview people who know the applicant, etc. It's a fairly thorough background check, and ultimately the person must have a legitimate "need" for a gun or belong to a shooting club or hunt. Also, lots of things including many but not all semi-autos are banned, including ones with center-fire ammo like AR-15s. I don't pretend to know why one might distinguish between center-fire and rim-fire, although I believe most combat arms are center-fire. Maybe that alone is the reason?


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

More fun:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...99/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v13.pdf


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> What? Dearest Shaver, I meant no offense. I merely wish to know the state of UK gun laws.


Oh my dear fellow, I do apologise. I fear that I may have mis-read your intent.

I have put the safety back on and sheathed my weapon.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

I think Shaver's lighthearted reply may have made the acquisition of firearms here sound easier than it really is. I have no doubt there is a black market trade, but I think you would have to be already active within the criminal fraternity to have such access to guns. 

Legally, it is not permitted to either acquire or own any rifle, handgun or form of semi-automatic weapon, or the necessary ammunition. I'm not sure whether this prohibition extends to artillery pieces, but logic suggests it might. 

Smooth bore weapons - shotguns - and also air rifles are another matter altogether. Shotguns may be owned, provided one has a licence. Licences are relatively easy to obtain provided the applicant has no criminal record or other such impediment to owning a weapon. Air rifles need no licence, but most are little better than pea-shooters.

It is only possible to own firearms that have been decommissioned - put beyond use. 

At one time it was quite common for retired military men, and many others besides, to keep a handgun at home, so I suspect there may be some of those still around.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

The links I posted suggested that it is legally permitted to own certain fire arms, but it requires convincing the local police that you have a legitimate need for it...they might in turn set the bar very high. It appears to be the case that if you want to hunt deer, you can own a rifle to do that after having been issued a certificate from the police. Same thing for sport shooting.

I've been looking into French gun laws, by the way. Their rules are relatively more liberal, and they appear to have a sizable hunting crowd with the associated lobby. Still, it always requires dealing directly with the local police and being subject to what appears to be a fairly rigorous background check.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

^ Yes, I overlooked the deer hunters. 

French gun laws are much more liberal than in the UK - restricting gun ownership seems largely a British thing.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Langham said:


> ^ Yes, I overlooked the deer hunters.
> 
> French gun laws are much more liberal than in the UK - restricting gun ownership seems largely a British thing.


Is there an element in UK society that strongly identifies with the guns = liberty thing? As I mentioned above, it seems that that existed in England to some degree prior to the 20th century, and I would argue that at least juridically England and the US started at the same place. But then the two countries evolved in very different ways both with respect to the law and the place of guns in our culture.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Here's a ranking of guns per capita. The US is number one, of course, and well ahead of the pack. France is 11th. Canada 12th. The UK is 82nd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

The data is from a 2007 Small Arms Survey study. That's a legit organization.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Is there an element in UK society that strongly identifies with the guns = liberty thing? As I mentioned above, it seems that that existed in England to some degree prior to the 20th century, and I would argue that at least juridically England and the US started at the same place. But then the two countries evolved in very different ways both with respect to the law and the place of guns in our culture.


I would say not greatly. Assertions of liberty nowadays generally seem to be about rather petty things, and in any case whole swathes of society have become feminised, arguably less given to violence.



tocqueville said:


> Here's a ranking of guns per capita. The US is number one, of course, and well ahead of the pack. France is 11th. Canada 12th. The UK is 82nd.


Ireland is 106th? Something wrong there surely, I don't think they can have counted all the buried caches properly.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Langham said:


> Ireland is 106th? Something wrong there surely, I don't think they can have counted all the buried caches properly.


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

You may find more of the kind of info you are seeking at ShootingUK.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk

I have been interested in shooting in the UK for some time, and will be attending a small syndicate shoot this December.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Flairball said:


> You may find more of the kind of info you are seeking at ShootingUK.
> 
> https://www.shootinguk.co.uk
> 
> I have been interested in shooting in the UK for some time, and will be attending a small syndicate shoot this December.


Thanks. I found some good info on that site regarding things like how to get a UK firearms certificate, how the police decide, etc. Can you, as a foreigner, obtain a certificate? Do you need one to attend a shoot?


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Thanks. I found some good info on that site regarding things like how to get a UK firearms certificate, how the police decide, etc. Can you, as a foreigner, obtain a certificate? Do you need one to attend a shoot?


It might be difficult for a non-resident to obtain a licence. You don't need one to go on a shoot, provided someone will lend you a gun. The licence is for possession, not use. I shoot clays on occasion but I have no licence.


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Thanks. I found some good info on that site regarding things like how to get a UK firearms certificate, how the police decide, etc. Can you, as a foreigner, obtain a certificate? Do you need one to attend a shoot?


There is a license which allows foreigners to bring an approved firearm in to the UK. I Don't remember the specifics, but it is for someone who spends less than (I believe it to be) 30 days each year in the UK. If one spends a greater amount of time in the UK then they must obtain the regular certificate. In my case I will be borrowing a gun. Not because of the licensing/certificate issue, but rather the hassle of legally and safely storing it while not shooting. I plan to spend a couple of days in London, and don't want to have to worry about the safe storage of my gun.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

There have been related discussions in previous threads. I believe one aspect of the UK approach is to curtail violence between people and strongly discourage the use of weapons of any kind on people.

Thus, if you use a handy cricket bat to fend off an attacker in your home, the police will want to know, and may well have codified standards for determining on their own, if the bat was kept by the door for home defence. If this is the case case the person using the bat will be charged for maintaining a weapon or some such. Whereas, if the bat was there because you had been out playing cricket and happened to leave it lying about, you would not be charged with the offense, as you hadn't planned ahead of time to whack potential intruders.

As an American I was, and remain, appalled at the notion that defending one's self under those circumstances with an instrument the possession of which is legal could be construed to be committing a crime. At some point Earl of Ormund, who has worked as a police officer in the UK joined the conversation and explained in police lingo, that, indeed, this was the case. 

This is in sharp contrast with the US, where, when you shoot an intruder, the question is whether you shot them in the front, or in the back. That is, if you shoot a robber it must be pretty clear that you were actually in danger of being harmed or killed by that person. This is the normative rule of thumb. In fact, in some states the law favors the householder, essentially giving her or him the right to shoot intruders. In California, the emphasis is on avoiding the use of deadly force, and it behooves one to be familiar with the law if contemplating the use of a firearm in self self defense or home defense. 

My own view is that I do not want to be a victim, and I am willing to defend myself with deadly force if there is no other way, such as beating it out the back door, to prevent being attacked.

This discussion deals with a small part of the question of the use of force in the US. I do not want to pursue the broader topic of guns, the NRA (National Rifle Association), etc. 

Gurdon


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

^ It is true that the law here often does not assist those seeking to protect their property; a number of cases in recent years have witnessed judicial intolerance of householders resorting to violence in such situations. 
On the other hand, in the UK, statistically, the risk of being a victim of firearms violence is extremely low, and the police generally operate unarmed.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

It is much, much harder to acquire firearms - especially military style firearms - in the UK than it is in the USA, and the contribution of guns to violent crime is consequently (I would argue) much much less in the UK. 

There are good comparison crime stats on Google - I'm just not quoting them here so as not to get into a row about one data point or other - but for example there is a massive difference between homicides with guns per million population between the two countries


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

I've no idea as to the accuracy of this graphic, but I've just stumbled across it on a completely unrelated site and thought it may be of use in this thread.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

Lol. Get serious. Semi auto in .22 (rim fire), manual in .223 and up? And it looks like defensive handguns in general are "Not UK Legal." That poster, if real, is aimed to muster the clueless and uninformed who don't read and think; who only absorb and act on images. Actually that poster makes me angry. "Education defeats Propaganda." That poster IS propaganda. It's right out of "1984." WWGOS? (What Would George Orwell Say?) PEOPLE OF ENGLAND HEAR ME!! 1984 was a warning, not a blueprint!!!!!!


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## moltoelegante (Sep 23, 2015)

tocqueville said:


> Of course. But what if you wanted to buy your weapon legally?


I believe there is no legal option to own a hand gun or assault rifle. Probably only bolt-action rifles and shotguns.


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## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

Shaver said:


> ^ If you have access to a wad of cash and consort with criminals then there is very little regulation.


*For those times when you don't want to go all the way over there to set that guy on fire...*


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