# Question about Brooks ocbds: unlined, interfaced, lined?



## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

I've read through many of the threads on BB ocbds, specifically about the collars, and have found myself in something of a conundrum concerning the evolution of Brooks' collars. It is my impression that sometime in Brooks' storied history they actually produced a completely unlined collar without any kind of interfacing or lining whatsoever - in other words, just the two pieces of oxford cloth. Looking through the archives, however, I've only come across people who refer to an "unlined" collar as one with interfacing, but not a "heavier" lining (fusible). Am I correct, then, to assume that what people are refering to as an "unlined" collar is one with light cotton interfacing in an open weave, but not a heavier fusible? Or, was there once a BB collar without either interfacing or lining and, if so, when did BB stop making them?


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## Speas (Mar 11, 2004)

BB's oxford cloth collars were unlined - no fusing or interlining - until a few years back. Dont recall exactly the year but the addition of the interlining came after Marks and Spencer sold BB.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

That's what I thought as well, but I have some BB Makers obcds (Made in USA) that must be from the 1980s, - beat up thrift store finds - and I cut the collar open and there's interlining in there. This interlining is a very light cotton with an open weave and is sewn into the collar, but not attached to either side of the external cloth. If you feel the collar from the outside it doesn't feel like anything is between the two outer layers. I guess my question should be, has anyone actually looked inside the collar of one of the old "unlined" BB collars and actually found nothing or have people just assumed the collars had no interlining because they're so soft.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I got a couple of the "Makers" OCBDs from Cardinals5 and the collars are quite soft, but I can tell that they are lined. I think the _heavier_ lining, more accurately, is what happened after M&S.


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## fairway (Sep 23, 2006)

I have some from the late 80s and maybe even early 90s(not sure of purchase date but think later in time) that are completely unlined and then some from same eras that are lined with thin "interfacing" (not sure what material is). Both varieties are Makers OCBD.


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

I have several BB Makers OCBDs from 1985-2002 and they are all 100% unlined. Unfortunately most of these (especially the oldest ones) are all now fraying at the collar and/or cuffs and/or have elbow holes from my point elbows. There was a hiatus in my OCBD-buying for a few years until around 2006. Since then, all OCBDs are lined. Not fused -- i.e., no glue -- but there is a relatively substantial piece of lining in the collar and cuffs. I much prefer the way they used to do it.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks for relaying your first hand experiences Fairway and Qwerty - my search for the long, lost unlined BB collar can continue.

In your ocbds with unlined collars, is there anything distinctive about the shirt label in the collar from that era, e.g. label is differently shaped, additional or missing text? I'm just curious so that when I look on eBay I can roughly determine the age from the tag. For example, the older, vintage Brooks sack coats all have a black tag that reads

*Brooks Brothers, *
*Established 1818*

What seems distinctive about these tags, save that they're black, is the addition of the comma after Brooks Brothers, which is missing on all the blue collar labels I've seen on Brooks' sacks.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

From the 1950s (maybe earlier) to the 1980s, the button-down collars of the Brooks oxford cloth shirts were completely unlined. There was just the top and bottom of the collars, with nothing in between. I know because I have many such shirts that have been worn until the collars were so frayed that they actually _split open_ from one end to the other. The collars on the shirts from the late 80s and into the 90s have not split open (yet), but they _feel_ the same as the older shirts. I have one from the late 90s or early 2000s which obviously has another piece of cloth inside the collar. I was so horrified when I found this that I've never bought another oxford shirt from Brooks.


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

A few photos of labels through the ages.

*Exhibit A -- 1980s white OCBD. Fully unlined.* Note that these shirts had only 6 buttons and thus a wider gap between the top two buttons...more of an "open" look when not wearing a tie. I like it.









*Exhibit B -- 1990s (?) blue OCBD. Fully unlined.*This is one of the shirts AlanC has for sale (which I just bought)









*Exhibit C -- Late 1990s red uni-stripe OCBD. Fully unlined.* They added a bunch of washing instructions to the label









*Exhibit D -- Early 2000s blue OCBD. Fully unlined.* Ugly label. This is when BB went for the Banana Republic look -- before the tech bubble burst -- and redid many stores in blond wood and chrome/brushed stainless rather than the traditional dark wood and brass. The San Francisco location moved from a gorgeous spot on the corner of Post and Grant the interior of which looked just like 346 Madison to a spot across the street and down the block in which they reside still today.









*Exhibit E -- mid-2000s-present slim fit white OCBD. Heavily lined, but NOT fused.* Note that this label is blue only because it is slim fit. The labels on slim fit have always been blue. If you go to BB today to buy a regular fit shirt, the label will be red. Note that these new "traditional" labels say "Since 1818" rather than "Makers"


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Qwerty - Thanks so much for taking the time to put up the pictures! That's a great archive of BB labels, each one rather distinctive, and within a solid timeframe - now I'll know my prey when I'm hunting it. I'm pretty sure that I have shirts with labels 2, 3, and 4; but I've never seen a shirt with that first label. I'm also beginning to realize that my mistake was probably comparing older pinpoint button-downs with the thicker ocbds. The thicker fabric could probably stand (literally) without any kind of interlining while the thinner pinpoints needed a very light, almost undetectable, interlining. In either case, thanks again, and now I can begin a real search.


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## dmac (Jun 30, 2006)

I have a BB ocbd with a completely unlined collar. I know this because it completely frayed. A few years ago I had the collar turned. When the other side frays through, you are welcome to have it for the price of postage as it appears from your other posts that you are interested in clothing construction.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Cardinals5 said:


> I've never seen a shirt with that first label.


Now you're making me feel old. I wore Brooks shirts with labels earlier in design than Exhibit A when I was in prep school and college.


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## CrackedCrab (Sep 23, 2008)

I got a couple of those slim fit ones (even though I am not that slim) pictured in the last pic from ebay and love them -- they feel very substantial, (remind my of those polo big shirts from a while back) and I don't mind the lining in the collar and cuffs. This coming from someone who has a ton of totally unlined Mercers in the closet. I just tried to order more from the BB website for the sale and they are backordered in my size and I've come not to trust BB backorder info....


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

Rojo was kind enough to share with me a few older OCBD shirt labels. See below -- all descriptions and photos are courtesy of Rojo.

*1950s.* These two, which are identical except for color, one yellow and one pink, are probably from the 1950s. The Textile Fiber Products Identification Act was approved in 1958, but these shirts have no fiber labeling, which dates them to before the Act took effect. The words "Brooks Brothers New York" appear on the oval, and inside the oval it says "MAKERS" and gives the shirt size. 









*Early 1960s.* In the wake of the Textile Fiber Products Identification Act, Brooks Brothers redesigned the shirt label, removing the words "New York" and adding the words "ALL COTTON" at the bottom. These two shirts, like the shirts from the 1950s, have no breast pocket. I read somewhere that Brooks added the breast pocket to its oxford shirts in about 1965 or 1968, which helps date these two shirts.









*1982.* In December of 1971, the Federal Trade Commission adopted rules for care labeling. Thus the pink oxford shirt that I bought in 1982 has the words "MACHINE WASH HOT" added at the bottom of the label. The warning about chlorine bleach came later.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks, rojo and Qwerty!


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

I second Jovan's thanks to Rojo and Qwerty - this thread must now be one of the best sources on dating BB's shirt labels. Fantastic stuff fellows!


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit (Dec 25, 2008)

Here's a label off of a luxury slim fit as of the past several months. "Makers and Merchants" has also been added to the tags of neckties:


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## eris (Mar 31, 2008)

clueless as for this label's vintage


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Very cool thread, but is the collar question answered? I am pretty certain, as others, that there was nothing inside the heavier oxford collar into the 80s; and why would there be, those collars were perfect. When did they add pinpoint oxford? maybe that's it?


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

The collar question was answered. The early ocbds had no lining, interlining, or interfacing while the lighter pinpoint collars did have some light interlining, but not facing (i.e. no interlining glued to the exterior fabric).

Ever since I started this thread, I've been meaning to start a new one using the tag images and information provided above so that people, like eris, could date their ocds, but I've never got around to it. One of these days...


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Great pictures and history! However, at the risk of being labled a heretic, I actually prefer the newer collars. I also like heavy starch and for the collar to stand up well. I've worn BB OCBDs for 30 years...but never liked the "floppier" collars as well as Gitman Bros. I guess it's a matter of individual taste and on this forum I'm in the minority...but I do like a bit of lining. Just MHO.


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## Chico (Apr 22, 2010)

*More data.*

I found a brooksweave, 6 button brooks shirt in my local thrift yesterday. It was brooksweave, the 65% poly version with a bleach reference (according the the labels above, this puts it in late seventies, early 80's realm?).

It had a very thin lining I could feel by pinching the collar. It was probably that thin cotton that the orig poster mentions in the 3rd post. I'm always pinching collars looking for unfused, but I've never felt a totally unlined one yet.

Unfused, lined collars feel great though so I'm excited to find a totally unlined collar to try out one of these days.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

rojo said:


> I have one from the late 90s or early 2000s which obviously has another piece of cloth inside the collar. I was so horrified when I found this that I've never bought another oxford shirt from Brooks.


Seriously?

This is a small thing, guys. Don't lose sleep over it.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

a couple I picked up about a year ago





no idea of the date of the first one (fully unlined), I though the second as an early 80s based on a similar label from an early 80s GQ article about BB.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

The brand new BB reg. fit OCBD I'm holding in my hands doesn't seem to have much between the collars. I'm comparing it to a LE Hyde Park and the difference is extremely subtle - at least to me.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> a couple I picked up about a year ago
> 
> no idea of the date of the first one (fully unlined), I though the second as an early 80s based on a similar label from an early 80s GQ article about BB.


Great tags, TBS. Thanks for contributing to this thread. I'm especially interested in the first one since I've never seen such an obviously early shirt tag with the "346" on the label.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

thanks!
I think it was an early slim fit, it's maybe 21" across the chest and has some of the highest armholes I've seen on a shirt.

I'm kinda surprised there isn't a OCBD dating thread here already.

here's one of the O'Connells NOS BB OCBDs (enough acronyms there?)
image from "The Trad" blog
edit: sorry huge picture, click here to see it: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wwgXxAjQ...AAAD1I/jAEisY3atxw/OC+New+Old+Stock+Label.jpg
Apparently it's from the late 80s early 90s, and unlined.


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## Youngster (Jun 5, 2008)

Doctor Damage said:


> Seriously?
> 
> This is a small thing, guys. Don't lose sleep over it.


Dude, you know that you are on a clothing forum, right? These guys are probably more arcane and precise than most PhD biologists.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Can't say that I'd want the collar on the Brooks OCBD to be any softer than it currently is. My shirts already tent to look barely presentable. Perhaps they did without the lining at a time when the oxford cloth was heavier. The lining could have been introduced as the fabric became thinner, thus providing additional structure to the collar. Hell if I know.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I think you might be right, LW.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Youngster said:


> Dude, you know that you are on a clothing forum, right? These guys are probably more arcane and precise than most PhD biologists.


Dude, you know that DD has been posting on this board since before you were born, right?


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Someone, I don't remember who, posted a pic of a BB Jamaica tag fairly recently, and I responded that I see them fairly often. Picked up two more today at a thrift near my tailors shop.

The collars on these ocbds are still unlined so I'm not exactly sure when production temporarily moved to Jamaica.


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## eris (Mar 31, 2008)

Just came across this label for the first time:


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## Yuca (Feb 19, 2011)

qwerty said:


> These two shirts, like the shirts from the 1950s, have no breast pocket. I read somewhere that Brooks added the breast pocket to its oxford shirts in about 1965 or 1968


But this is from 1954:










Even though it's worn by a lady, it's from a Life article about women wearing men's Brooks shirts.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

I forget which thread it was, but we finally came to the consensus that Brooks had breast pockets available on ocbds in the late 1940s-early 1950s (I have a couple of early 1950s "New York" examples), but also had options without breast pockets (i have a mid-1960s exampe without a breast pocket).


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## Yuca (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks, that explains it.

I would imagine pocketless to be a bit bare if worn without a jacket, however as all my shirts (Brooks and otherwise) have pockets, I'm assuming that.


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## Robert Patrick (Apr 14, 2004)

I read an article on BB OCBD's 15 years ago or so that mentioned BB, at that time at least, would actually remove pockets at the customer's request.

I have actually removed many a pocket from shirts over the years, both BB and otherwise, as I think it makes for a cleaner appearance under a jacket. So long as you do it prior to the first wash, I have never had a problem.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

At what point did they add the embroidered lamb to the chest? it must've been fairly recently.


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## Yuca (Feb 19, 2011)

Anyone know the year Brooks began putting a lining in their ocbd collars? I think I read it was late 90s.


Anyone know the year Brooks went from 6 to 7 button placket? Late 80s, I have read.


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## Wrenkin (May 4, 2008)

rwaldron said:


> At what point did they add the embroidered lamb to the chest? it must've been fairly recently.


They only do that for the sport shirts. You can still get the plain ones on their website under dress shirts.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

Wrenkin said:


> They only do that for the sport shirts. You can still get the plain ones on their website under dress shirts.


save the pocket V. lamb logo, what is the difference between the OCBD dress shirt and sport shirt?


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## Jory (Mar 19, 2012)

rwaldron said:


> save the pocket V. lamb logo, what is the difference between the OCBD dress shirt and sport shirt?


I believe the main differences are alpha sizing and no shirttails on the sport shirts.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

Jory said:


> I believe the main differences are alpha sizing and no shirttails on the sport shirts.


OK, so nothing I should stress about if the shirts I have fit then? Thanks for the info.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

Great information in here. It made a nice lunchtime read!


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## Svalan (Feb 13, 2013)

Anyone interested in posting some more photos of Brooks Brothers labels and collars?


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## MZWilson (Apr 14, 2013)

Svalan said:


> Anyone interested in posting some more photos of Brooks Brothers labels and collars?


While I wasn't around during the "good years" of the unlined collar, here are a couple of rather recent labels and collars. I tend to like the extra slim fit shirts. It gives me a bit less to worry about while tucking.

This blue OCBD was purchased around the middle of 2012. The collar has softened it nicely since purchase, but there is definitely some kind of lining. It doesn't feel particularly thick but I don't have much to compare it to in the Brooks Brother's world. Forgive the wrinkles. It needs to be laundered.

The next one was purchased during the day after Christmas sale. The labels have changed a bit, I believe all extra slim fit labels are now green. The collar feels rather stiff, but it has neither been washed nor worn.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## hipster88 (Nov 13, 2014)

I believe this shirt has been made in early 1970s...it is right?


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## hipster88 (Nov 13, 2014)




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## hipster88 (Nov 13, 2014)




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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

^^^ On my screen this appears to be a broadcloth vs an oxford cloth.


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## hipster88 (Nov 13, 2014)

Yah, but I would like to know the period of production, according to the different labels....


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## hipster88 (Nov 13, 2014)

UP UP! Any idea about the decade of production?


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