# Stroller vs. Morning Coat



## qasimkhan (Sep 24, 2003)

What is the difference in a stroller and a morning coat/clothes? I've looked in several books and websites, and I only see a morning coat described. No one describes a stroller.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

A stroller is cut like a suit coat; no long tail in back.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

A stroller is a short morning jacket. The normal spec would be, single breasted, 2 button, peak lapel, usually in a heavy black wool ( melton, barathea or some such ). That said double breasted or notch lapel examples do exits ( my own stroller is a NL ) however I cannot fully attest to the historical authenticity of them. 
For a good example of a stroller check out Knize. 
Also, this is a very good example of how to do morning wear ( as well as being one of my all time fave images posted here ! )


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Where's Sator?


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## A Purist (Dec 30, 2003)

Knize's website refers to it a as Stresemann - 

Then there was that wonderful day, January 20, 1981:



See also, Esquire's Encyclopedia at 183-91, 189.


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## qasimkhan (Sep 24, 2003)

So, if I understand correctly, the only difference is the coat tails. There is no less formal tie, shirt, vest, etc.?


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## Degendorff (Nov 6, 2006)

In Germany it's called Stresemann, because Gustav Stresemann (a famous german politician of the Weimarer Republik) invented it. At that time, one had to wear morning coats, but they were too unpractical for Stresemann's political everyday life, and so he "invented" this shorter jacket, which was still formal enough to wear with the striped trousers, but much more practical. He now was able to change the morning coat for the stroller whenever he entered the Reich Chancellery/Reichskanzlei.

Today the stroller is a less formal version of the morning coat. I would say that stroller/morning coat is comparable with dinner jacket/tailcoat.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

qasimkhan said:


> So, if I understand correctly, the only difference is the coat tails. There is no less formal tie, shirt, vest, etc.?


Well, ages ago, the morning coat used to be worn with a wing collar shirt and "ascot" or "cravat." That practice is pretty much dead, even among the very few people who still wear the morning coat.

So, for all practical purposes, yes, the accessories for both are the same. With one exception. The morning coat takes a top hat. The stroller takes a homburg or bowler.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Cantabrigian said:


> Where's Sator?


Lurking. Ain't got much to add to what's already been said really, I'm delighted to say. Good to see all of this interest.

I wasn't aware that Gustav Stresemann single handedly invented the stroller. I had only heard that his innovation was having dared to wear it into the Bundestag. If you look at 19th century morning coats they often did have shorter coats anyway (sometimes double breasted) for more informal occasions, so I have _severe_ doubts that it was anything new at all.

As for colours, charcoal grey is also an acceptable alternative to black.

Waistcoats are buff or dove grey usually but black for funerals and official state functions.

The only situation where cravats are still beloved are for the groom at a wedding.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Degendorff said:


> In Germany it's called Stresemann, because Gustav Stresemann (a famous german politician of the Weimarer Republik) invented it.


This statement has been troubling me and so I did a bit of research. Here is a picture of the Grand Duke Peter of Russia in a stroller. The picture dates from the late 19th century and completely predates Stresemann:

https://imageshack.us


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Bertie Wooster said:


> being one of my all time fave images posted here ! )


 If the gent in the right is in Morning Dress what is the man on the left wearing? Is this a correct form of Daytime formal? DB coat and checked pants with cuffs?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

That would be the DB form of the "stroller."

Striped or checked trousers appear to have been considered correct, although stripes were probably more so for affairs of state and the like. The two gents in this engraving appear to be on their way to brunch or maybe a wedding.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Hmmm. Interesting and very slick. Thanks Concordia:icon_smile: IMO that'd be easily "wearable" today.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Bertie Wooster said:


>


Sator - Bertie's image shows the use of trousers with a small herringbone check with morning dress which I wear to the races (although with smaller check). 
By the way I saw the old film The Million Pound Note at the weekend, plenty of morning dress and frock coats in that.


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## Degendorff (Nov 6, 2006)

@Sator

I doubted it, too. But definetely he made it a popular look in Germany, otherwise the stroller wouldn't be named after Stresemann. I think that a Stresemann-stroller is more restricted in its form: 1 Button, peak lapel, no vents, black (or deep nearly black charcoal).


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

MCs are still de riguer for European weddings. I had to go to 2 one year so I own one.
Strollers are most often spotted worn by church deacons of the Anglican persuasion, though I have seen them worn by a couple Presbyterian Deacons: one in NY, one in Belfast.

Indeed, Reagans 81 was the last truly elegant inaugeration.

BB are selling correct MCs this season in a nice charcoal. No to worry though, notched, flapped, 3 button DJs a re also in abundance.


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## angle_slam (Jan 18, 2007)

Literide said:


> Indeed, Reagans 81 was the last truly elegant inaugeration.


Why wouldn't morning dress be more appropriate than a stroller for an occassion as momentus as an inauguration?

From the looks of this, he wore a tux at the inauguration ball. Why not tails?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

That is a pic from Reagan's second. At the first one, he did wear tails.


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## angle_slam (Jan 18, 2007)

Also, out of curiosity, what are the proper shoes for morning dress or a stroller?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Black balmoral boots or oxfords, stitch cap or punch cap.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

yachtie said:


> If the gent in the right is in Morning Dress what is the man on the left wearing? Is this a correct form of Daytime formal? DB coat and checked pants with cuffs?


If only there was a source for the yellow chamois gloves!


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Literide said:


> Strollers are most often spotted worn by church deacons of the Anglican persuasion, though I have seen them worn by a couple Presbyterian Deacons: one in NY, one in Belfast.


In the Anglican Communion, a deacon is an ordained minister in major orders. He (or she in the mainstream Episcopal Church) would customarily be wearing some sort of clerical attire or vestments at a religious ceremony. I think you must mean "ushers" (which I think are sometimes called "deacons" in some of the Protestant churches). I have seen this claim before on this forum about strollers being worn in Anglican churches. For a period of about 28 years I was extremely active in the Church of England, the Protestant Episcopal Church and various traditional Anglican bodies post -1976 (when PECUSA voted to ordain priestesses). I frequently served as an usher and held a variety of lay offices--Vestryman, Senior Warden, Junior Warden, etc. Notwithstanding all this experience, I can't say I ever saw a single stroller being worn, not even by grooms at weddings. Maybe Anglicans have started dressing better since I stopped attending so regularly, but I very much doubt it.


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## Sol05 (Oct 6, 2006)

The picture on the Knize website is breathtaking.I will love to wear a stroller for my wedding.it looks awesome, but it's hard to find a store in the D.C. area with (one botton,peak lapel,charcoal-grey ) off the rack.The salesman at nordstrom recommends attending the Hickey Freeman truck show.Please, i would not mind other recommendations.My budget is $600-$1200. Thank you.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Sol05 said:


> The picture on the Knize website is breathtaking.I will love to wear a stroller for my wedding.it looks awesome, but it's hard to find a store in the D.C. area with (one botton,peak lapel,charcoal-grey ) off the rack.The salesman at nordstrom recommends attending the Hickey Freeman truck show.Please, i would not mind other recommendations.My budget is $600-$1200. Thank you.


You might get the best results by buying an oxford grey suit with the right detailing (DB or SB peak lapel, no pocket flaps, closed vents) and accessorizing with the correct trousers and vest. You will spend a little more at retail, but you will get more use out of all of it. You also might be able to find the suit part at a steep discount. Trousers, too, if you don't mind thrifting or searching eBay for vintage pairs. There are some threads about this on www.thelondonlounge.net , notably Manton's wedding attire article.


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## KCE (Nov 13, 2006)

Could the jacket of a one-button peak lapel tuxedo substitute as a stroller, if you paired it with the appropriate striped pants? Or are satin faced lapels not appropriate on a stroller?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Not appropriate. Otherwise, it's about what you would want.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

Will said:


> If only there was a source for the yellow chamois gloves!


I am fairly sure that they can still be obtained; I recall that F.A. Stone, for example, used to carry them until quite recently: https://www.fastone.co.uk/


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Possible stroller trouser options from Polo, size and ? They seem within acceptable parameters to my eyes. NFI, etc.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

*Question*

Would one want to replace the belt loops with brace buttons to make these acceptable (since no adjustable waistband)?


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Removing the loops would be a good idea, I think, as one would want to wear braces. However, no one should see the waistband anyway (either db coat or waistcoat should be hiding it) so you could cheat a little bit.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

My trousers have the adjustable waist band. No loops and no buttons.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

My vintage morning dress trousers have no loops and exterior brace buttons so I'm sure there's quite a bit of variation.


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## Christopher_NY (Mar 31, 2005)

*Well Dressed Ushers*



JLibourel said:


> In the Anglican Communion, a deacon is an ordained minister in major orders. He (or she in the mainstream Episcopal Church) would customarily be wearing some sort of clerical attire or vestments at a religious ceremony. I think you must mean "ushers" (which I think are sometimes called "deacons" in some of the Protestant churches). I have seen this claim before on this forum about strollers being worn in Anglican churches. For a period of about 28 years I was extremely active in the Church of England, the Protestant Episcopal Church and various traditional Anglican bodies post -1976 (when PECUSA voted to ordain priestesses). I frequently served as an usher and held a variety of lay offices--Vestryman, Senior Warden, Junior Warden, etc. Notwithstanding all this experience, I can't say I ever saw a single stroller being worn, not even by grooms at weddings. Maybe Anglicans have started dressing better since I stopped attending so regularly, but I very much doubt it.


There are at least two churches in NYC (1 Anglican, 1 Presbyterian) where the ushers wear morning suits a/o strollers.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

Will said:


> If only there was a source for the yellow chamois gloves!


I'm pretty sure Chester Jefferies would be able to make you a pair. 
https://www.chesterjefferies.co.uk/index.php
Very well priced and quite flexible by all accounts.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Christopher_NY said:


> There are at least two churches in NYC (1 Anglican, 1 Presbyterian) where the ushers wear morning suits a/o strollers.


I'll take your word for that. However, I never saw any in the UK, in Texas or Southern California in all my years as an active churchman.


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## SGladwell (Dec 22, 2005)

Sator said:


> This statement has been troubling me and so I did a bit of research. Here is a picture of the Grand Duke Peter of Russia in a stroller. The picture dates from the late 19th century and completely predates Stresemann:
> 
> https://imageshack.us


That's not a Stresemann as I understand it. The jacket's too long in both front and back, and the back of the skirt is longer than the front. So some sort of Arctic hybrid, maybe, no not a Stresemann to me.

Admittedly, the sum total of my understanding comes from a few conversations at Knize almost half a decade ago...


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

SGladwell said:


> That's not a Stresemann as I understand it. The jacket's too long in both front and back, and the back of the skirt is longer than the front. So some sort of Arctic hybrid, maybe, no not a Stresemann to me.
> 
> Admittedly, the sum total of my understanding comes from a few conversations at Knize almost half a decade ago...


The cuts of lounge coats have evolved since the 19th century but they remain lounge coats nonetheless.


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## Countertenor (Mar 21, 2007)

Christopher_NY said:


> There are at least two churches in NYC (1 Anglican, 1 Presbyterian) where the ushers wear morning suits a/o strollers.


Saint Thomas Fifth Avenue ushers wear Morning Coat for Easter and other high feast days.


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## SilkCity (Apr 3, 2004)

I just completed my ticket orders for the Met Opera's upcoming season,
and surprised the wife by signing on for all matinee perfs, when we usually 
opt for Fri or Sat eves--and I wear a Dinner Suit.

I told her that a little change in scheduling might be a good thing. 

Now, explaining the change in attire...


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

You can of course wear galosh topped boots for morning wear.

I have taken to wearing a stroller/black lounge to my London meetings when morning dress would be too formal. I change between stripes and houndstooth trousers as well as use different waistcoats and hats. It is rather versatile IMO.


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## empirebuilder (Jun 1, 2010)

I'm attending an occasion where I'm wearing something to match the early 20th century style and planning to go for the Stresemann, quite similar to the picture quoted in Sator's post below, only replacing the top hat with a homburg. I'd like to wear a shirt with detachable collar but unfortunately I don't currentily own a turndown collar for it, only a stand up one, like in the picture, and a wing tip one. What are your opinions, would the stand up collar be too costume like or would it do, certainly looks good on the Grand Duke? The pictures of the stroller/streseman suit mostly seem to have a "standard" turn down collar shirt.

Apologies for lifting the ancient thread for the picture.



Sator said:


> This statement has been troubling me and so I did a bit of research. Here is a picture of the Grand Duke Peter of Russia in a stroller. The picture dates from the late 19th century and completely predates Stresemann:
> 
> https://imageshack.us


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

Wearing "something to match the early 20th Century style" is - on the face of it - doing period re-enactment or costume. So, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Just wear what looks appropriate to the period, if that's what you are aiming for.

The Grand Duke's coat actually has tails, it seems. Maybe that was an evolutionary link:icon_smile_wink:


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## empirebuilder (Jun 1, 2010)

Blueboy1938 said:


> Wearing "something to match the early 20th Century style" is - on the face of it - doing period re-enactment or costume. So, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Just wear what looks appropriate to the period, if that's what you are aiming for.
> 
> The Grand Duke's coat actually has tails, it seems. Maybe that was an evolutionary link:icon_smile_wink:


Thank you, that's what I'll go with then!

Out of curiosty, has there been an etiquette for the correct collar for Stresemann?

The coat in the picture looks amazing, I'd definitley like to have one! Can anybody figure out the type of lapels on it?


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Here's early 21st century style for you.

https://www.favourbrook.com/


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

The term 'stroller' is a curious American one. In England it would straightforwardly be a morning suit.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Nay, we call it 'black lounge'.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Bog said:


> Here's early 21st century style for you.
> 
> https://www.favourbrook.com/


I actually want something similar to this for less formal occasions.


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## empirebuilder (Jun 1, 2010)

That would be damn perfect! As there's so few possibilities to wear either a morning or frock coat, that would be just enough different.

It seems there's no name for the stroller/stresemann in Finnish. I've heard a term "lounaspuku", a lunch suit somewhere, probably comes from the time of the day or maybe because it sounds like "lounge".


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

A larger image of it: 

It seems to have been fairly popular at Favourbrook, they only have size 42 left, and that’s it.


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