# Let's Play Rank the Italian Shirtmakers...



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

How would rank the following shirts from 1=Best to 9=Worst in quality?

Barba, Borrelli, Finamore, Anna Matuozzo, Kiton, Lorenzini, Brioni, Truzzi, Buonomassa (Barba)

Let me know if I have missed any important lines...


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Oh, God. Get out the Vaseline again. :devil:


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Alex,

Why do you say that? I'm just trying to improve my knowledge of shirt value to help with my purchases with Ian and other retailers...I'm not making any judgments about your shirts...


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Anna Matuozzo (not really a line, the bespoke ones)















Kiton (because the fabrics are nice)
Borrelli et al

Edit: There are other really nice ones, just not the ones you mention.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Matt,

What ones are missing?

How do you rank Barba, Finamore, Buonomassa, etc.?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

They are all some sort of below average or the other. As Alex has said many times, you cannot make a handmade shirt in a factory. Anna has four or fiven really good seamstresses who sew her top line shirts. That is about as big as you can get and still do a reasonable job. I do not know if she has another factory or subcontracts the diffusion line.

Battistoni, Bugelli and Fray are all excellent in their bespoke lines. I am sure that others are as well. In Naples Merrolla e de l'Oro are supposed to be quite good, but not to the level of Anna.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Matt,

I understand the value of bespoke as much as anyone but I can't always justify paying $900 for a shirt with AM or $600+ with Alex. I'm sure that quality is amazing.

I was honestly trying to be of service of those here who buy from ebay vendors like World's Finest and want to know what the best RTW quality below $400 is or if many are on a certain level. There are a lot of fine Italian names but I have not yet tried Truzzi, Buonomassa, Fray, Battistoni, etc. But probably some members here have tried.

If you read the thread I never mentioned anything about "making a handmade shirt in a factory".


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## chobochobo (May 5, 2006)

I think it's a difficult exercise to 'rank' brands as each seems to have many lines, and in the end a great deal comes down to individual preferences ie subjectivity. Plus the only one I've ever had is a Borrelli


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## kronik (Dec 27, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Matt,
> 
> I understand the value of bespoke as much as anyone but I can't always justify paying $900 for a shirt with AM or $600+ with Alex. I'm sure that quality is amazing.
> 
> ...


This information would be beneficial to me as well.

As much as I'd like to go to Kabbaz for shirts, it's just not in the cards for the next couple of years. Expecting that everyone should purchase bespoke is somewhat.. eh. I think it's safe to assume that the participants of this board do not expect an AM bespoke for 130 from Ian.

Can anyone rank the RTW shirts presented by AF? Sans vaseline.


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## Chris L. (Aug 11, 2006)

Borrelli has got to be one of 'em. At least the top 2.

Borrelli over Brioni in shirts.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

iammatt said:


> Battistoni, Bugelli and Fray are all excellent in their bespoke lines. I am sure that others are as well.


Mimmo Siviglia in Rome.


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

My subjective opinion, judging only RTW shirts...

Top RTW shirts:

2. Kiton (best fabric quality, just like their suits)
4. Attolini (very neapolitan in design)

Good RTW shirts:

6. Borrelli
7. Barba
7. Finamore
8. Fray

Like someone mentioned above, it is hard to rank these RTW shirts because there seems to be many different quality lines. Also, a lot depends on how good the RTW shirt fits your body without alterations.


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## asaffi (Jun 14, 2005)

*what would be*

a neapolitan design for a shirt?


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## Chris L. (Aug 11, 2006)

Borrelli is IMO, best RTW Shirt; better than Kiton...

Suits: Kiton over Borrelli.

Shirts: Borrelli over Kiton.

IMO of course.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Oh, God. Get out the Vaseline again. :devil:





Artisan Fan said:


> I understand the value of bespoke as much as anyone but I can't always justify paying $900 for a shirt with AM or $600+ with Alex.


I THINK what Alex meant was that he did not want to once again have to explain why the $900 shirts from other bespoke makers cost 50% more than his shirts. There have been previous allegations of dumping by shirtmakers who can't seem to match his efficiency. I think the quiet and timid Alex is a tad sensitive about the undercutting allegations.

It is conceivable that I am incorrect.


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## kronik (Dec 27, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> I THINK what Alex meant was that he did not want to once again have to explain why the $900 shirts from other bespoke makers cost 50% more than his shirts. There have been previous allegations of dumping by shirtmakers who can't seem to match his efficiency. I think the quiet and timid Alex is a tad sensitive about the undercutting allegations.
> 
> It is conceivable that I am incorrect.


Conceivable? It's certain, for damned sure!

(I have no actual opinion on what you said.)


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Matt,
> 
> I understand the value of bespoke as much as anyone but I can't always justify paying $900 for a shirt with AM or $600+ with Alex. I'm sure that quality is amazing.
> 
> ...


Well, Anna's bespoke shirts are under $500 so I am not sure this is a fair statement. They are actually less than many Kiton or Borrelli RTW shirts in the US.

I happen to think that a great fitting shirt is EVERY BIT as important as a great jacket or suit.

I am not saying that some of the other shirts are not nice, just that comparing them is like comparing Alex to Ike Behar or Hamilton Custom Shits.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I think this is a major thread jack. Artisan Fan, I understand your question and will respond to it. But let's reintroduce the thread and make certain you put RTW in the thread title and we can leave this deteriorating discussion in its jacked state to others.

Perry


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

I've only tried Borrelli and Finamore (through Vacca), and Borrelli is better than Finamore: more buttons, thick buttons, more hand-detailing. In the realm of shirts, however, both are quite poor especially given their prices: they're fragile and highly inconsistent in construction and quality beyond the idiosyncracies of being hand-made items. The cloths are only exceptional in the patterns offered with the fundamental construction of the cloth being unexceptional, especially given their prices. An Ascot Chang is a higher quality product for 1/3 the price, and will fit better.

--Andre


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## taillfuzz (Mar 30, 2004)

I prefer Fray to Borrelli. The Fabrics and designs are not quite as conservative. Fray fabrics are exceptional and they are very well made. I often like the Fray as much or more than Kiton shirts; although anything by Kiton is wonderful.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Oh, God. Get out the Vaseline again. :devil:





Artisan Fan said:


> Alex,
> 
> Why do you say that? I'm just trying to improve my knowledge of shirt value to help with my purchases with Ian and other retailers...I'm not making any judgments about your shirts...


Sorry, Artisan Fan. Just a bit of humor to take the edge off a thread which has appeared many times. Didn't mean to insult or demean the value of your question and, unless someone has moved my studio to Italy in the middle of the night, did not think my shirts were players in this thread.

I do have a strong opinion on this, partially encompassed in what Matt said above - that over a certain annual gross output, quality suffers. The rest can best be understood by analogy:

Many will argue...perhaps passionately...that their vowel-terminated maker of the world's finest shmatta is the best on the planet. Some may prefer Carla Roma's sky-blue, slant-striped hexagonal gussets; others will enjoy Carlo Napoli's 3.7 stitch-per-inch poorly-hand-sewn underarm sweatcatcher. Here in the U.S. we also have our ostensible quality arguments. Chevrolet owners will point out that the competition really means *F*ix *O*r *R*epair *D*aily. Conversely, Ford owners will reply that the integral tow hooks are on the back of a Ford and the front of a Chevy.

So which is better quality? Perhaps the real quality question lies in which brand's advertising and public relations agencies had this year's best quality campaigns. As far as the shirts? Pick your preferred fabric in your preferred fit with the bells and whistles you want. There is not really any consistent quality superiority except in the minds of each brand's partisans.

Oh, yes. Lest afficionados take from this that I am by nefarious design comparing Italian RTW shirts to Fords & Chevys rather than to Lexus/Mercedes, you are absolutely incorrect. There is nothing nefarious about it. I am. :icon_smile_wink:

------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S.:


> _ I understand the value of bespoke as much as anyone but I can't always justify paying $900 for a shirt with AM or $600+ with Alex. _
> 
> I THINK what Alex meant was that he did not want to once again have to explain why the $900 shirts from other bespoke makers cost 50% more than his shirts.


 Nope. Didn't think my shirts were in play.


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## PITAronin (Nov 30, 2004)

I seem to recall asking this question before in the context of a similar thread and don't recall getting a reply.

Though, thanks to eBay, I own a Fray shirt (love it) I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone actually pronounce the name and so am not quite sure if the correct pronunciation is "fray" as the spelling suggests, or something else.

Thanks


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

Dont`t quote me on this...but I was under the impression that it is pronounced like "fry"


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Well, Anna's bespoke shirts are under $500 so I am not sure this is a fair statement. They are actually less than many Kiton or Borrelli RTW shirts in the US.


Matt, you said in a PM once that her bespoke shirts were closer to $1K. I've read articles saying the same thing. Her Anna Matuozzo line (non-bespoke) shirts go for $360 at ebay prices on Men's Store.



> So which is better quality? Perhaps the real quality question lies in which brand's advertising and public relations agencies had this year's best quality campaigns.


I got to be honest here Alex-this does not sit well with me. You seem to be implying that none of the RTW shirt lines are worth discussing on a handwork basis since they are so far below yours. I don't think that's fair. Kiton shirts are superb and so are Borrelli shirts and there is quite a bit of handwork there. Would it be better to have a fully custom shirt? Sure. But this really is a thread hijack to turn it into a referendum and imply it's all marketing. I've worn these shirts and I see real differences.

I asked the question because I have limited or no experience with Barba, Finamore, Fray, Buonomassa and others. I simply wanted to see what makes should be preferred at this lower price point.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Matt, you said in a PM once that her bespoke shirts were closer to $1K. I've read articles saying the same thing. Her Anna Matuozzo line (non-bespoke) shirts go for $360 at ebay prices on Men's Store.
> 
> I got to be honest here Alex-this does not sit well with me. You seem to be implying that none of the RTW shirt lines are worth discussing on a handwork basis since they are so far below yours. I don't think that's fair. Kiton shirts are superb and so are Borrelli shirts and there is quite a bit of handwork there. Would it be better to have a fully custom shirt? Sure. But this really is a thread hijack to turn it into a referendum and imply it's all marketing. I've worn these shirts and I see real differences.
> 
> I asked the question because I have limited or no experience with Barba, Finamore, Fray, Buonomassa and others. I simply wanted to see what makes should be preferred at this lower price point.


Nope. I said that if they were sold in the US they would be about that much. This is just based on how much Kiton and Borrelli shirts are here. However, you can only buy her bespoke shirts over there, so the price is what it is.

I don't think that Alex would say that a handmade shirt is better at all. He can correct me (and will), but I believe that his shirts have basically no hand stitching at all. I think only the buttons are attached by hand. The same goes for Charvet which makes a beautiful shirt.

His point about 4 stitches per inch should be looked at as well. It is a fact for most (all) of the RTW handmade shirtmakers. The good shirtmakers in Naples have many, many more hand stitches much closer together. In other words, they actually hold the shirts together that way. They also have some "pickestitching", but that is different.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I don't think that Alex would say that a handmade shirt is better at all.


The discussion here is in the context of which $200-500 price point shirts are the best and what have people's experiences been.

I'm not sure I agree with the comment that handmade shirts are not better. There definitely must be some advantage to hand set sleeves (is there a machine that does that well?) and I do know that all of my handmade shirts fit me better than even the best machine made shirts I have tried. The collars on my Kiton shirts fit me as well as anything I have tried.

I think it sets a bad precedent on the community here if I can't ask a simple and honest question on shirt brands without us having to get sidetracked into some discussion that implies we are all driving Chevys if we don't buy $4K of shirts from Alex. That is arrogant and elitist. Using this analog I will grant that Alex may be making Bentleys but to say Kiton or Borrelli is less than a Lexus or Infiniti does not seem factually correct. The workmanship and fabric quality are worthy of that level.

I would like to learn the reasons why machine work may be better in some areas on a shirt but I would like it to be in a different thread. Also, I think Alex should be fair and recognize he is a partisan as well-he is going to be biased from his own experience. He may feel that machine work is best but other quality tailors may disagree for very good reasons and it may all boil down to preference at the end of the day. Let's have the discussion by all means.

Getting back to the ranking. I would say my Kiton shirts are definitely better made than Borrellis which are better made than my Lorenzinis or entry level AM. But all are excellent. My goal is to buy some shirts for the Fall and base some selections off what is good value for money while staying below the bespoke level. I may do that as well as a separate exercise.



> I said that if they were sold in the US they would be about that much.


But we are talking about U.S. prices!


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> But we are talking about U.S. prices!


Well, that might be important if you could buy them in the US. However, you cannot.

What you are saying is akin to a European client of Alex's saying that his shirts start at $1000 because that is what they might cost if Alex exported them to Europe. The fact is they cost what they cost. What an agent might mark them up to is really irrelevent if there is no agent and no markup.

Another problem with the shirts that you list is that they are all too stiff for the type of shirt that they are. That level of stiffness is fine for a shirt from Paris, New York or Milan, but it is not right for a "handmade" shirt, or a shirt from Naples. They try to get around it by using flimsy fusing which just creates a mess. A handmade shirt needs to have handmade, soft collars and cuffs. Now, I think Alex hates this look, but it is correct for a handmade, soft style shirt.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Well Matt if you can't buy the bespoke AM in the U.S. then they are not part of the discussion. You can buy the "Anna Matuozzo" line shirts from Men's Store so they are included.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Well Matt if you can't buy the bespoke AM in the U.S. then they are not part of the discussion. You can buy the "Anna Matuozzo" line shirts from Men's Store so they are included.


OK, then they are all about the same. Kiton uses nicer fabrics than the rest, but they all suffer from the fact that they are attempting to do the impossible.


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

In my own limited experience with Italian rtw shirts, I would prefer Truzzi after examining one in New Orleans at a merchant who also sold Borelli. I did not think the Borelli was a substantial shirt, despite the obvious workmanship. I thought the Truzzi exhibited workmanship that was just as good, and appeared to be a more durable garment, actually made for wearing. I have owned Brioni shirts, but honestly, they have not lasted nearly as long as my Gitman staples.

Having said the above, I plan on ordering Hamilton shirts on my fall visit to the Big Easy. I believe they make a shirt that can stand comparison with any of the more widely known Italian makers.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

iammatt said:


> I don't think that Alex would say that a handmade shirt is better at all. He can correct me (and will), but I believe that his shirts have basically no hand stitching at all. The same goes for Charvet which makes a beautiful shirt.


I don't value hand stitching in as shirt as I do in a suit. I value fit. I'd rather wear a decent fitting $150 Individualized MTM shirt than a lesser priced poorly fitting RTW Borrelli or Barba off EBay. But then RTW has never worked for my physique(17-1/2 neck, 32 waist, 36 sleeve).


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> I got to be honest here Alex-this does not sit well with me. You seem to be implying that none of the RTW shirt lines are worth discussing on a handwork basis since they are so far below yours. I don't think that's fair.


Please stop referring to my shirts. They are irrelevant. This thread, *according to you,* has nothing to do with bespoke shirts or I would not be commenting upon it. It has to do with a PR campaign, begun by Battistoni in the mid 1980s and followed shortly thereafter by Borelli. Since then, many others have jumped on the bandwagon. The basic idea revolves around including the words "handmade", "Naples", "Italy", "Milan", and other meaningless catchwords in the advertising and public relations campaigns of a slew of Italian brand names. Each maker picks an attribute or two upon which to concentrate and then claims their attribute better than all others.

At this point in my career it is just simply tiresome. I have preferences. You have preferences. Tom, Dick, and Harry each have preferences. Discuss what you consider attributes of the particular makers but leave the "so-and-so is the *best*" to the uneducated.



IAmMatt said:


> Now, I think Alex hates this look, but it is correct for a handmade, soft style shirt.


 I don't hate it. I only hate that it has been perverted for personal profit. A properly executed Neapolitan shirt is a work of art.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

What about Siniscalchi? Marol? Burini? :devil:

I agree with Alex.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Please stop referring to my shirts.


You were the one who brought this up Alex by criticizing all these makes. I never even envisioned the discussion would veer so far off the road. It was you who implied all these shirts were Chevys.

As for "who is the best" discussions...I did not inquire on that specific point. I just want to know about relative value. I suspect the best shirts are at a different price level. My question is more along the lines of "given a $300 or so price point, would you pick Fray, Borrelli, or Truzzi?" or something along those lines.



> Each maker picks an attribute or two upon which to concentrate and then claims their attribute better than all others.


This is frustrating for me Alex because you claim this is all about public relations and marketing (I'm sure that is some part of it) but then you don't give benefit to the makers for their handwork. Some of us appreciate these details. It's like a drive-by critique but you don't explain why handwork is not as important to you. We all want to learn if we have this wrong. I fear this sensitivity from you is cooling community desire to have ANY shirt topics...

I'll start another thread...


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> You were the one who brought this up Alex by criticizing all these makes. I never even envisioned the discussion would veer so far off the road. It was you who implied all these shirts were Chevys.
> 
> As for "who is the best" discussions...I did not inquire on that specific point. I just want to know about relative value. I suspect the best shirts are at a different price level. My question is more along the lines of "given a $300 or so price point, would you pick Fray, Borrelli, or Truzzi?" or something along those lines.
> 
> ...


I think what the handwork that Alex is deriding is the widely spaced, decorative faux-handwork that the RTW shirtmaker try to pass off as useful handwork.

He has a point. For example, if I look at a RTW handmade shirt that retails for $600, I see that there are about 4.5 stitches per inch. If I look at a real handmade shirt, there are more like 12. That is a big difference. One is handmade more for show and will not have much strength. The other still will not be as strong as a machine stitched shirt, but will be plenty strong and have more flexibility.

Alex said that he finds handmade shirts beautiful. They just have to be handmade.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

iammatt said:


> , I see that there are about 4.5 stitches per inch. If I look at a real handmade shirt, there are more like 12. That is a big difference. One is handmade more for show and will not have much strength..


Take a close look at some of those handstitched seams sometime. See whether that sewing is done with a locked stitch or whether it will unravel if ONE stitch breaks.

Not my wisdom there, another shirtmaker pointed it out to me when i was considering whether to have our shirts done by machine or to go for the handwork. The advice, cleaned up, was something akin to "Don't do anything decoratively that would affect the structural quality". Good advice.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> If I look at a real handmade shirt, there are more like 12. That is a big difference.


What's the criteria to say what a real handmade shirt is? If a person sews by hand the area in question, isn't that handmade? What makes 12 the right number?

See the new thread on the value of handmade shirts...


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## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

Though these shirts threads are becoming trolls, I must say that Kiton has the best fabrics, followed by Brioni, then Loro Piana and Borrelli, next is Lorenzini and Zegna, with Truzzi and Barba, plus a whole lot of little makers.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks kitonbrioni for the ranking.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

kitonbrioni said:


> Though these shirts threads are becoming trolls, I must say that Kiton has the best fabrics, followed by Brioni, then Loro Piana and Borrelli, next is Lorenzini and Zegna, with Truzzi and Barba, plus a whole lot of little makers.


Do these makers have access to fabrics other than Alumo, Albini, Bonfanti, Riva, Romantina, SICTEss etc.? I consider these to be top of the line and am not aware of anything better, or even how cloth could really be made much better. I'm just talking about quality. Design-wise, they are all hit or miss, but so is every firm.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Manton,

I can only speak to Kiton but I believe they do many exclusive fabrics from Riva. Not sure about the other lines. This is similar to their suit materials buying strategy too, of course.


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## clothingconnoisseur (Oct 9, 2005)

*Not mentioned*

I am certainly not an expert on shirtmaking but I can say from experience that my Zegna, Barbera and Lorenzini have held up far better than my Borelli, Battistioni and Brioni. In fact, I have found Zegna to be the best of all of these with Barbera and Lorenzini close seconds. I know that Zegna certainly does not claim to be hand made but I have siz year old Zegnas that look better than 2 year old Borelli and Brionis. Maybe the finer fabric does not respond well to the commercial laundry (with light starch) but I am not about to start doing my own ironing when I can sleep the extra fifteen minutes.

I have not tried any of the others mentioned but I do hope to order from Alex within the next 6 months.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I am extremely fortunate that I order my bespoke shirts locally at around $140 USD each. The fabrics are as good as or better than the ones you seen on Brioni, Borrelli, or Kiton shirts. The only thing is that there is far less handwork on them and my shirtmaker ues double seam stitching. But I would never bother with buying even the finest RTW shirt as I know that it just won't fit me properly. Improper fit renders even the fanciest handwork irrelevant. Sadly, I think it is true that the fancy handwork sported by many of these labels is merely for show.


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## Notik (Jul 3, 2005)

I've owned Zegna, Barbera, Borrelli, and Kiton, among others. My preference, by far, is for Borrelli, but this is a personal, rather than an absolute, thing. The cut suits my body well. I love the collars, finding them high and spread but also extremely comfortable. The fabrics are also very light, which is comfortable. I find Zegna shirts to be very full in terms of cut and also very, very stiff. They are industrial, and also less expensive, than Borrelli or Kiton shirts. Kiton shirts are beautiful but the cost is extravagnat (I know, the Borrellis are outrageous too, but are still less than the Kitons) and the cut is odd, for me at least, with a full back and a small chest that doesn't suit me. But remember, once you're spending this kind of money on clothing, you should buy what you like and what suits you, not what anyone else thinks.


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## Notik (Jul 3, 2005)

Notik said:


> I've owned Zegna, Barbera, Borrelli, and Kiton, among others. My preference, by far, is for Borrelli, but this is a personal, rather than an absolute, thing. The cut suits my body well. I love the collars, finding them high and spread but also extremely comfortable. The fabrics are also very light, which is comfortable. I find Zegna shirts to be very full in terms of cut and also very, very stiff. They are industrial, and also less expensive, than Borrelli or Kiton shirts. Kiton shirts are beautiful but the cost is extravagnat (I know, the Borrellis are outrageous too, but are still less than the Kitons) and the cut is odd, for me at least, with a full back and a small chest that doesn't suit me. But remember, once you're spending this kind of money on clothing, you should buy what you like and what suits you, not what anyone else thinks.


I mean to add Lorenzini. Very nice, but also industrial (machine made) vs. Borrelli or Kiton. Nicer though, and better fitting, than Zegnas.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Sator said:


> I am extremely fortunate that I order my bespoke shirts locally at around $140 USD each. The fabrics are as good as or better than the ones you seen on Brioni, Borrelli, or Kiton shirts..


I'm curious as to what fabrics your maker is using that are as good or better. This is NOT one of those snotty challenge type questions but rather genuine interest.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> I'm curious as to what fabrics your maker is using that are as good or better. This is NOT one of those snotty challenge type questions but rather genuine interest.


Charles, my shirtmaker, does stock a variety of fabrics from different mills. I should know the mills he orders from but I am afraid I cannot rattle them all off the top of my head. I know one of them is Acorn but I have never ordered a shirt in an Acorn fabric. For the finest fabrics he will charge more of course - just as Kiton or Borrelli would for their top lines. After all with the most expensive fabrics the fabric alone would cost more than $140 USD. However, Charles only makes about $22 US dollars per shirt and if he did charge the sort of prices that Alex K (an old colleague and countryman of Charles) did he would go bust here in Sydney as there just isn't the market for it as there is in the US. So with markups like this a quality bespoke shirt for $140-250 USD is quite feasible.

One customer did bring in a Brioni shirt to Charles to have a certain stylistic feature copied. Charles showed me the Brioni and he wasn't one bit impressed with it - either the fabric or the construction. Apparently it had cost around $800 AUD. Indeed Charles was quite appalled, as the fabric quality was more like the sort he would charge me around $185 AUD (ie roughly $140 USD) for. Charles also noted that the buttons on the Brioni were plastic rather than MOP (Charles does not usually use MOP for his buttons except on special request).

On my last visit to Charles I noted that he was acting as the receptionist, salesman, as well as the shirtmaker. He often comes in at ridiculous hours to finish off orders himself for customers. His wife is an accountant and so she does the book-keeping. Charles remarked that if he did hire a salesman, receptionist and accountant, his shirts would probably cost sustantially more.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*Charles Nakhle Contact Details*



Chuck Franke said:


> I'm curious as to what fabrics your maker is using that are as good or better. This is NOT one of those snotty challenge type questions but rather genuine interest.


On second thought if you are interested from a professional point of view I would suggest you ask Charles himself personally. Charles is way too busy to answer e-mails (he was amazed to hear that Alex had the time to act as a moderator on this wesite as Charles is simply too busy cutting and sewing at all godless hours of the day and night!), so you will have to ring him during business hours in Australia:

Nakhle Shirtmakers

69 Phillip St 
Parramatta 2150
Phone: 61 2 9633 4696

I suspect you are wanting to know more detail on the mills Charles orders from than a non-professional such as myself can give you.

As far as Charles' abilities as a shirtmaker goes, I personally think he is excellent, but you would be better off asking Alex K for an independent professional opinion. If you REALLY want to know how good a shirt Charles makes, while I could post pics, you might be better off ordering a shirt when you ring, as I am sure an old pro like you would know your measurements. For a $140 USD plus around $20 shipping, it's not going to break your piggy bank.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Hi friends,
I wanted to clarify a few things about my posts regarding Alex.

In re-reading the replies in this thread, I realize I was a bit feisty and sometimes harsh in my words or tone yesterday and may have stated some things that were misunderstood or disrespectful in tone or text. I was a bit frustrated by the direction of the thread to be honest.

I do want to clear up any hint of disrespect to Alex Kabbaz. By all accounts Alex is a true artisan and master shirtmaker. I sincerely apologize if I made it appear he had lied in any form or fashion or if my comments took on any form of disrespect for him. I certainly do not think Alex lied in any way but was expressing an informed opinion.

I have the utmost respect for Alex and indeed one day I hope to be his customer. I have only been here briefly but his comments on shirts and other topics have been valuable to me.

My hope is that he can comment in further detail on fine shirtmaking in the other thread on how important machine v. hand is.

Alex, I hope we can put this all behind us and move on and learn more about your process and experience. I look forward to your continued comments and wisdom sharing.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

quote=Artisan Fan]Alex, I hope we can put this all behind us and move on and learn more about your process and experience. I look forward to your continued comments and wisdom sharing.[/quote] Of course we can. Thank you for your most gentlemanly post. It speaks well of you.

As regards hand vs. machine, I'll try to put a bit together this evening after the art school closes.

Sincerely,
Alex


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I look forward to your comments Alex.


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## styledoc (Mar 12, 2006)

Personally, I find this process to be tiring. A member presents a simple matter - ranking certain (obviously) RTW shirt makers - and I get to read through a litany of self-serving responses by an apparently bitter bespoke shirt maker. This forum is NOT the place to advertise how much inferior ALL other products are to your own. We get it; they cost more, they are made with superior quality - get over it. This thread is not about your shirts.

My personal rankings:

1. Borrelli - for elegant spread collars and double thick buttons
Fray - for ultra thick buttons
3. Zegna Couture 
4. Kiton - awesome fabrics, though I don't prefer the cut
5. Charvet 
other: Brioni - not on par with the above


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

styledoc said:


> Personally, I find this process to be tiring. A member presents a simple matter - ranking certain (obviously) RTW shirt makers - and I get to read through a litany of self-serving responses by an apparently bitter bespoke shirt maker. This forum is NOT the place to advertise how much inferior ALL other products are to your own. We get it; they cost more, they are made with superior quality - get over it. This thread is not about your shirts.
> 
> My personal rankings:
> 
> ...


I don't think Alex is trying to make the thread about his shirts. I do think that the ranking game is simply inane. And Charvet is not Italian.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Borrelli and Zegna above Kiton?
:icon_pale: ic12337:


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

RJman said:


> I don't think Alex is trying to make the thread about his shirts.


I don't think so, either. Furthermore, I think that if styledoc believes that a post of series of posts are inappropriate, he ought to avail himself of the Report Post icon in the upper right-hand corners of the posts rather than taking upon himself to complain about it on the thread.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

RJman said:


> I do think that the ranking game is simply inane.


How true.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

RJman said:


> I don't think Alex is trying to make the thread about his shirts. I do think that the ranking game is simply inane.


Ditto.

At that level,
they are just different,
not really better,
love them or hate them for their differences,
but ranking them in order is personal.


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## styledoc (Mar 12, 2006)

Yes, simply b/c I don't really like the fit of the Kiton shirt. At this level, it's only a matter of personal preference.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I do think that the ranking game is simply inane.


RJ and Tomasso,

I think it's wrong for you both to criticize my question. I asked it in good faith to help decide about web purchases. Isn't that what this forum is for?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Yes, simply b/c I don't really like the fit of the Kiton shirt.


They have three fits so you might want to try other ones.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

styledoc said:


> Personally, I find this process to be tiring. A member presents a simple matter - ranking certain (obviously) RTW shirt makers - and I get to read through a litany of self-serving responses by an apparently bitter bespoke shirt maker. This forum is NOT the place to advertise how much inferior ALL other products are to your own. We get it; they cost more, they are made with superior quality - get over it. This thread is not about your shirts.
> 
> My personal rankings:
> 
> ...


 Dear Styledoc,

What makes you think I am bitter escapes me. For your edification:

1] I do not sell hand-sewn shirts. These products do not relate to mine.
2] I do not sell ready-made shirts. These products do not relate to mine.
3] I am not an Italian shirtmaker. These products do not relate to mine.
4] Ranking upper-level shirtmakers of any type is not a simple matter unless you are a simpleton. The details of the manufacture are critical. I don't presume any members but Shirtmaven, Udeshi, and I have the experience to judge those details ... and I haven't noticed a post in this thread by either Carl or Oscar.
5] You are one extremely rude individual.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

These days quite a few (upscale) mass-market brands advertise "hand-sewn" as a significant component of the quality of the shirts they sell. I use the term "sell" advisedly because not all of these brand names sew their own shirts. Some contract the work out to other factories. Among the first makers to offer this as a mass-market item was Luigi Borelli and it is with his shirts that I have the most hands-on experience.

At the very outset please allow me to state that there is a *huge* difference between a mass-made "hand-sewn" shirt and a truly artisanal or bespoke hand-sewn shirt. The former uses the reputation for excellence of the latter without the decades of sewing experience; the latter suffers from the wide availability of that which is ostensibly the same product at a much lower price.

*The Differences between a Machine-Sewn and a Hand-Sewn Shirt*

*Machine Sewn*
A "machine sewn" shirt means that you take an average of 24 parts and sew them together by holding various combinations of the parts in your two hands and use the needle & thread of a sewing machine to stitch them together. In the process, your two hands are assisted by the "teeth and presser foot" of the sewing machine which is kind of like the machine's "hand". Advocates of machine sewn shirts declare the following:

* The machine makes smaller, straighter, more accurate lockstitches
* The "hand" of the sewing machine aids the sewer by providing a third hand for greater control
* Stitching goes more quickly thus lowering labor costs
* The stitch, being smaller, more accurate, and straighter, is more pleasing to the eye

*Hand Sewn*
In the vernacular of 2006, a "hand sewn" shirt means that you take an average of 24 parts and sew a great number of them them together by holding various combinations of the parts in your two hands and use the needle & thread of a sewing machine to stitch them together. In the process, your two hands are assisted by the "teeth and presser foot" of the sewing machine which is kind of like the machine's "hand". You then take certain of those parts, in most cases

* The collar leaf and collar band assembly
* The sleeve attaching seam & sleeve plackets assembly
* The two cuff assemblies
* The shirt-ready machine-sewn fronts, yokes, and back

and assemble them together into a shirt by holding various combinations of them in one hand and using a needle & thread in the other hand. Advocates of hand sewn shirts declare the following:

* The hand makes more "artisanal" stitches
* The finished shirt will fit better due to the "give and stretch" inherent in the looser, larger, non-locked hand stitch
* Stitching is more time-consuming and valuable thus justifying higher labor costs
* The stitch, being larger, less accurate, and more "artisanal", is more pleasing to the eye

*Why is the (Upscale) Mass-Market Hand-Sewn Shirt an inferior product when compared to its hand-made Artisanal Counterpart?*

The artisanal maker has many years of sewing experience. The process of holding together two shirt parts with one hand whilst sewing them together with the other hand is a very difficult process. Shirt fabrics do not have the "body" of suit fabrics. Shirtings, especially the favored high yarn numbers and soft twills, tend to droop and flop all over the place. This talented artisan will be sewing various parts of the shirt with a varying number of stitches-per-inch; anywhere from 10 to roughly 18, depending upon what is required for the particular seam. It takes a seamstress decades, usually beginning in childhood, to acquire this talent. And when that decades experienced sewer makes a hand-made shirt, the result is a magnificent work of art.

So what happened when Sr. Borelli decided to mass-market the "hand-sewn" shirt? Did Italy all-of-a-sudden locate a generation of lost children who had been hiding in secret Sewing Camps learning the art of hand sewing and, when sales skyrocketed, drag them all out of the closet and tell them that their life's dream had been realized? The simple answer is "No!". In truth, a whole new group of seamstresses were quickly taught how to hand-sew certain overly visible portions of a shirt. Gone was the careful, knowledgeable sewing of each part. The basic goal became getting the part attached with as few stitches as necessary to keep the seam from being visibly open. Gone were the widely varying number of stitches-per-inch; the quantity based on the function of the particular seam in question, replaced by stitches-per-inch ranging from as low as 4 to as many as 10. Again, the basic goal became getting the part attached with as few stitches as necessary to keep the seam from being visibly open. Decades of experience were suddenly supplemented by those with twenty minutes of training. The quality of the hand-sewing quickly began to reflect the lack of sewing experience and the greatly lowered expectations of the factory production directors who now reigned in the shirtmaker's place. And the pyramid grew. Sales continually increased and with that fewer and fewer became the proportion of skilled sewers; greater and greater that of 20 minute wonders.

Many question my constantly repeated mantra that the handwork in today's mass-market shirts is nothing but fodder for the advertising agency. It cannot be anything but that. There are not sufficient qualified hand-seamstresses in the entire world to sew even one-hundredth of the Italian shirts being sold as handmade. The art of making this type of shirt requires not only a lifetime of experience, but also a great love for the craft - just as does that of a talented machine-sewer - and you cannot train that kind of pride in twenty minutes or even a year.
*
Let me just cover a few important issues before closing:*

1] I base my factual knowledge of the results of this mass-market, faux hand-work on a number of experiences, including the ridiculous quantity of Borelli (and other brands) sleeves I have reattached for distraught clients who had received one as a gift. Including the quantity of collars I have resewn which were handed to me along with an accompanying shirt body. Including the number of times I have regretfully had to inform a sorry purchaser that there was no way to repair the sleeve fabric torn as a result of too few assembly stitches. And so on.
2] It takes just as long to train a top-flight machine-sewing seamstress as it does to train a hand-seamstress. For one to be able to sew the entire shirt by machine at a the best possible quality requires a minimum of twenty years of sewing experience and comes with the caveat that they have never sewn "piece-work" in a mass-production factory.
3] There is no way to properly sew a "Neapolitan" styled sleeve into the shirt body by machine or at least without prior hand basting of the pleating.
4] There is no major firm available mass-market which completely hand-sews a shirt (I'll happily stand corrected; I just do not know of one).
5] Oftimes the quality of the fabric of these mass-market "hand-sewn" shirts is right up there with the best of bespoke shirts. This is, in the main, inconsequential as in the overall composition of the cost of a shirt the largest segment should be labor, not fabric ... and certainly not advertising.

I have written this covering just the basic concepts without delving into the detail work of sewing. I'll gladly try to answer any questions which don't get so technical as to be boring to the majority of members.


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## kronik (Dec 27, 2005)

Thank you Alex.

I have what I feel is a legimate question. If one cannot afford 400-600 dollars per shirt.. and must go with a mass-produed, machine-sewn shirt - any brand recommendations there? I've been looking at Udeshi and of course, the usual eBay suspects. I purchased a couple of Brionis on sale at Saks which are gorgeous (fabric-wise) but may not be the best-constructed at the price point. I'm fond of RLPL as well, with shirts from Brioni, RLPL, Finamore, Barba Gold Label, Borrelli.. I cannot speak to the quality of the seams because my eye is not nearly that trained and the shirts are all less than a year old, so I have no idea which one would deteriorate first.


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## styledoc (Mar 12, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Dear Styledoc,
> 
> What makes you think I am bitter escapes me. For your edification:
> 
> ...


This sort of reply demonstrates an over-riding hypocrisy that weakens the purpose of this forum and undermines your own efforts here. You need to hire a PR manager and avoid the smugly intended statements of opinion that forum users - i.e., simpletons (read: anyone other than Kabbaz) - do not appreciate.


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

what a gem! that is a real peice of useful info!


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

Thank for taking the time write up the useful information Alex :icon_smile: 

One question...what are the de-merits of machine shirts?


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

Barba Gold Label.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Drag0n said:


> Thank for taking the time write up the useful information Alex :icon_smile:
> 
> One question...what are the de-merits of machine shirts?


 When you compare apples to apples there can be many. One apple is the vast majority of machine-made shirts which are made in an assembly line consisting of 52 sewing machine operators. One, for example, sews the interior collar stitches. Another makes the top centers or plain centers on the fronts. A third stitches the interlining to the cuffs. The list has 49 more sewers. In this manner there is no personal responsibility for the final shirt except that of the quality-control inspector whose little round numbered sticky label leaves unwanted adhesive somewhere on your new shirt. The other apple would be the assembly-line manufactured "hand-sewn" shirt. Many of the processes are the same. As a matter of fact, the three processes I detailed are also machine sewn on "hand-made" mass-market shirts. Having never been the production director of a hand-made shirt factory, I cannot detail how many additional seamstresses are in the assembly line, but in order to end up with a complete shirt the number will be roughly the same.

When it comes to the artisanal or bespoke level of shirt the scenario changes. As I mentioned previously, there is no way a machine can set a Neapolitan sleeve which has "shirring" or "pleating" at the sleeve head. Or to be more correct, there is no way a machine can do this with acceptable quality.

Another "machine-sewn" problem lies in the care afforded the machine in question. Improperly adjusted tension knobs can cause puckering or uneven inside and outside seams. Improperly tightened needles can cause stitch skipping. In most factories I have seen, machines are run daily until they no longer sew at which time the mechanic is called upon to "make it sew again". A top-quality machine seamstress will have sufficient knowledge not only to be able to do regular maintenance on his or her own, but will also know enough to call the mechanic before the machine just "stops sewing".

Most machine operators are paid on a "piecework" basis. In other words, a certain number of cents for each piece accomplished well enough to pass q.c. This results in the never-ending quest for increased machine speed and operator throughput. Neither are harbingers of better quality. By the very nature of the beast, hand-sewing is a slower process even though, as I detailed above, sewing speed is an overriding concern.

On the other hand - and this is where prejudice comes to the fore - I prefer the symmetry, accuracy, and longevity of machine sewing over hand sewing when it comes to shirt-weight fabrics. I maintain my (very old) machines with lots of TLC and have worked for many years to insure that the shirts I make have every attribute they possibly can. It is therefore virtually impossible for me to find an area (outside of personal preference for the stylistic appearance of limited hand-sewing) where I consider machine sewing to be in any way sub-par.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Artisan Fan,

This type of discussion has been bounced around many times,
and people get their nose bent out of shape when their favorite house is not listed well.

All I am saying is that it would be more helpful to all if we listed what we see as strong points and weak points of each house and then one can gage what is important to meet their personal needs and desires in a shirt and make a wise and informed purchase.

To actually attempt to rate them 1 to 10 is a loaded gun.

Edit:


This summer I met Mr. Sebastiano Borrelli.
It was a hard chat, he speaks Italian and a little broken English. We had a translator for most of the time.
Over a short espresso he tried to explain why he likes to use a machine to sew most the shirt and only hand sew the little touches to give it grace.
He would agree with Alex, and he has his seamstress sew just about all of the shirt themselves, for the very reasons Alex has outlined.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

If I had to recommend one brand it would be Charvet. I have seen their shirts listed here as on sale in the $200 range. You also need to factor in cost-per-wearing. A $200 shirt which deteriorates in 40 launderings cost you $5 per wearing. The average Charvet (RTW) shirt should yield 80-100 wearings. At $200, you're now down to $2.50 per wearing. An important consideration.



kronik said:


> Thank you Alex.
> 
> I have what I feel is a legimate question. If one cannot afford 400-600 dollars per shirt.. and must go with a mass-produed, machine-sewn shirt - any brand recommendations there? I've been looking at Udeshi and of course, the usual eBay suspects. I purchased a couple of Brionis on sale at Saks which are gorgeous (fabric-wise) but may not be the best-constructed at the price point. I'm fond of RLPL as well, with shirts from Brioni, RLPL, Finamore, Barba Gold Label, Borrelli.. I cannot speak to the quality of the seams because my eye is not nearly that trained and the shirts are all less than a year old, so I have no idea which one would deteriorate first.


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## kronik (Dec 27, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> If I had to recommend one brand it would be Charvet. I have seen their shirts listed here as on sale in the $200 range. You also need to factor in cost-per-wearing. A $200 shirt which deteriorates in 40 launderings cost you $5 per wearing. The average Charvet (RTW) shirt should yield 80-100 wearings. At $200, you're now down to $2.50 per wearing. An important consideration.


Gotta go and stir up the pot eh.. not even Italian. 

Thanks for the recommendation - I will definitely be looking at Charvet more intensely now.


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

@Alex...thank you again for taking the time to post more valuable information


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

kronik said:


> If one cannot afford 400-600 dollars per shirt.. and must go with a mass-produed, machine-sewn shirt - any brand recommendations there?


Why not consider MTM. You can attain above average fit using higher quality shirting for under $300 per shirt and less for basic cloths. Completely serviceable and they will fit you better than any RTW ever could.


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## taillfuzz (Mar 30, 2004)

Sometimes it is hard for us to understand how much more Alex knows about shirts than we do. He makes statements that would be arrogant coming from the rest of us. He just knows too much!

I agree about Charvet being the best brand. Superb fabrics and very well made. I also like Fray for the same reasons. I do like the handwork on Kiton; it gives the shirt a delicate and refined look, and the fabrics are wonderful. 

I definitely prefer hand made suits. They are without doubt superior to machine made suits. I do agree with Alex, however that hand sewing on shirts is generally oversold.


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## taillfuzz (Mar 30, 2004)

no message


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

Sator said:


> Nakhle Shirtmakers
> 
> 69 Phillip St
> Parramatta 2150
> ...


I don't mean to hijack the thread, but will make a few opportunistic comments. I took Sator's advice, and Charles has made me about a dozen shirt in the last couple of months. While I agree with Sator in general, I should add that Charles is one of the most obliging artisans that I have met in bespoke clothing. Anyone visiting Sydney and after very good value shirts should make the trek out to Parramatta. Charles will make the first shirt within a day or so, and additional orders can be made over the phone. On one visit I met a fellow forum member from Amsterdam, also swayed by Sator's enthusiasm.

Aus


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## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

I humbly defer to Alex's knowledge and expertise in this matter. But I will add that my personal experience with the durability and longevity of life concerning Borrelli, in particular, has been exceptional. 

I have many Borrelli shirts that I purchased in the early-mid eighties that are still performing wonderfully for me. 

I have never had a seam fail or a collar fall off any of my Borrelli, but perhaps I am the anomoly here, I can only speak form my own experineces?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

aportnoy said:


> I have many Borrelli shirts that I purchased in the early-mid eighties that are still performing wonderfully for me.


Mine are all from the mid to late 90s, and I have not had any problems either. I wonder if, as the brand got popular, they expanded production around 2000 or so to an extent that quality suffered. Just speculation, but there have been so many reports on this forum and others of faulty Borrellis that I have to think there must be something to it.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Alex,

Thank you very, very much for your comments on machine v. hand. It's great that you put so much time into that. I'm learning a lot here...



> All I am saying is that it would be more helpful to all if we listed what we see as strong points and weak points of each house and then one can gage what is important to meet their personal needs and desires in a shirt and make a wise and informed purchase.


I think that's probably right...I was actually trying to have more of a pros and cons discussion in any event.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

The only problem I have had with Borrelli is two button failing (all on the collar) out of probably 2 dozen shirts, all of which have had heavy usage. Not too bad a record in my book...


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

manton said:


> Mine are all from the mid to late 90s, and I have not had any problems either. I wonder if, as the brand got popular, they expanded production around 2000 or so to an extent that quality suffered. Just speculation, but there have been so many reports on this forum and others of faulty Borrellis that I have to think there must be something to it.


I've wondered the same thing. Mine all date from 2000 and after, and quality is inconsistent. Some I have had no problems with after dozens of wearing, and some seem like damned shirts -- problem after problem after problem. Not only that, but Borrelli made a number of construction changes about 18 months ago that were not for the better (wider side seams and strange, reeded buttons among the ones that annoyed me).


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

I too have read here many times about failed Borrelli shirts,
I only have a hand full, but I wore the linen shirt once a week all summer long, hand washed it in hotels throwing it over the shower curtain to dry, rolled in a ball in my suitcase and it still looks new.

Has anyone every posted a picture showing details of what went wrong with one of their Borrelli.

It drives me nuts the way they sew a spare button 2/3 the way down the right hand side seam on some of the shirts, I cut it off right away. 
The thinnest, softest of my shirts I find difficult to iron well. That is the height of my dissatisfaction to date.

edit-typo


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

> I've wondered the same thing. Mine all date from 2000 and after, and quality is inconsistent


Just wondering...do you (and others) buy your shirts from the store or Ebay?


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Tomasso said:


> Why not consider MTM. You can attain above average fit using higher quality shirting for under $300 per shirt and less for basic cloths. Completely serviceable and they will fit you better than any RTW ever could.


I think in all actuality that many of us buy good shirts by paying $100-200 for OTR shirts that retail in the $300-500 range normally. Given that fact many of the suggestions here, while valuable to the wealthy, are not a viable option for everyone.

I think many of us would love to place an 8 shirt order with Alex and do understand that would give us the best possible shirt available at any price. Unfortunately "any price" is not always in the budget.

So thoughts and rankings on OTR shirtmakers of some quality allow us to sale and EBay shop to avoid buying Lands End OCBDs.

Perry


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

aportnoy said:


> I have never had a seam fail or a collar fall off any of my Borrelli, but perhaps I am the anomoly here, I can only speak form my own experineces?


However I have had many buttons fall off. Or should I say unravel. I keep a sewing kit near my favorite chair just for a couple of my Borrelli's.

Now some don't do this, but I believe I have 2 that had the buttons sewed on by a drunk apprentice right after the company chistmas party.

Perry


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> but I believe I have 2 that had the buttons sewed on by a drunk apprentice right after the company chistmas party


More likely sorrow after a soccer team loss... 

Kiton will actually give days off for this...no lie.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> More likely sorrow after a soccer team loss...
> 
> Kiton will actually give days off for this...no lie.


This is true, Kiton did make arrangements for the staff to be able to see the game.

Where did you hear about this AF,
I was there the day before the semi final and they were talking about the final game already!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

My friend Massimo told of several occasions this happened. In the past when Italy lost the factory would be run on minimal staff the day following he told me.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

That tidbit about soccer games is also in a _New Yorker _article about Kiton from (I think) 2000.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Alex,

Do any of your clients request your usual treatment but want to have some finishing touches like buttonholes handsewn?

Also, one of the problems I've had in the past has been length of the tails since I'm 6'3"...I'm sure a custom fitting takes care of this...is there a tailor's rule of thumb how low is right?

Finally, I like a somewhat loose collar for comfort. Is there a way to craft a collar size-wise that is both comfortable and sharp looking? Do high collars create a more difficult fitting process?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

One more question...how does fusing of shirt collars work?

I have been told that this is common but quite less important than suit fusings...do you do that? Are there levels of craftmanship that negate any potential weaknesses in fusing?


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> RJ and Tomasso,
> 
> I think it's wrong for you both to criticize my question. I asked it in good faith to help decide about web purchases. Isn't that what this forum is for?


These types of questions regularly arise about suits and shoes and no one gets bent out of shape. Obviously, it's different strokes for different folks but I am sure that you were simply looking for personal experiences on what are considered some of the better RTW shirts. Given that so many here own quite a few of the different brands, I would have thought you would see posts like " I think Borrelli is the best because........." or "Charvet is a rip off because.........." Information that I would also have liked to see. Instead you get derided. This forum should have a board of directors that you send your questions to first and ask if they are appropriate before you post them since and if this question is so dumb, why do you bother opening the thread and responding?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

aportnoy said:


> I humbly defer to Alex's knowledge and expertise in this matter. But I will add that my personal experience with the durability and longevity of life concerning Borrelli, in particular, has been exceptional.
> 
> I have many Borrelli shirts that I purchased in the early-mid eighties that are still performing wonderfully for me.
> 
> I have never had a seam fail or a collar fall off any of my Borrelli, but perhaps I am the anomoly here, I can only speak form my own experineces?





manton said:


> Mine are all from the mid to late 90s, and I have not had any problems either. I wonder if, as the brand got popular, they expanded production around 2000 or so to an extent that quality suffered. Just speculation, but there have been so many reports on this forum and others of faulty Borrellis that I have to think there must be something to it.





Artisan Fan said:


> The only problem I have had with Borrelli is two button failing (all on the collar) out of probably 2 dozen shirts, all of which have had heavy usage. Not too bad a record in my book...





jcusey said:


> I've wondered the same thing. Mine all date from 2000 and after, and quality is inconsistent. Some I have had no problems with after dozens of wearing, and some seem like damned shirts -- problem after problem after problem. Not only that, but Borrelli made a number of construction changes about 18 months ago that were not for the better (wider side seams and strange, reeded buttons among the ones that annoyed me).





pkincy said:


> However I have had many buttons fall off. Or should I say unravel. I keep a sewing kit near my favorite chair just for a couple of my Borrelli's.
> 
> Now some don't do this, but I believe I have 2 that had the buttons sewed on by a drunk apprentice right after the company chistmas party.
> 
> Perry





Artisan Fan said:


> More likely sorrow after a soccer team loss...
> 
> Kiton will actually give days off for this...no lie.


I could not have told the tale any better. The problem when one expands an artisanal method to the size of a mass market factory operation is exactly that: Great inconsistency. One loses buttons, another a collar, a third ends up sleeveless. And yet an unquantifiable percentage find themselves with "perfect" shirts.



Artisan Fan said:


> Alex,
> 
> Do any of your clients request your usual treatment but want to have some finishing touches like buttonholes handsewn?


 No. They prefer the durability and consistency of my 100+ year old Singer 71 buttonhole machine. It is really a rather unique machine as it has had only two mechanics in the last 30 years: A member, Mr Oppenheim, of the team which designed the machine and me ... Mr. Oppenheim's last loyal trainee.



Artisan Fan said:


> Also, one of the problems I've had in the past has been length of the tails since I'm 6'3"...I'm sure a custom fitting takes care of this...is there a tailor's rule of thumb how low is right?


 A general rule is that it should be longer than your hanging arms and cover the fly of your trousers. Length in a custom shirt should never be an issue. You want more? You get more.



Artisan Fan said:


> Finally, I like a somewhat loose collar for comfort. Is there a way to craft a collar size-wise that is both comfortable and sharp looking? Do high collars create a more difficult fitting process?


 To the former, absolutely. To the latter, more absolutely!



Artisan Fan said:


> One more question...how does fusing of shirt collars work?
> 
> I have been told that this is common but quite less important than suit fusings...do you do that? Are there levels of craftmanship that negate any potential weaknesses in fusing?


 This is fully described and illustrated here:


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks Alex.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Thanks Alex.


It's good to see you smile again:icon_smile_wink:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Tomasso said:


> It's good to see you smile again:icon_smile_wink:


 Personally, I like smiling. It helps to hide the age wrinkles. :icon_smile: :icon_smile: :icon_smile:


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Alex,

I read your shirt article in the members site-it's fascinating. You should write a book on fine shirtmaking and take people through the process like Vass did in his shoemaking book.

You could probably write a chapter on fitting, fine fabrics, construction, examples of your finished product, maintenance & laundering, maybe include a list & profile of the handful of artisans remaining, basic wardrobe ideas, shirt-tie matching, etc.

I'm sure manton could make some introductions.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> Alex,
> 
> I read your shirt article in the members site-it's fascinating. You should write a book on fine shirtmaking and take people through the process like Vass did in his shoemaking book.
> 
> ...


 Thanks. The book's been in work. Hopefully by 2007. It is Mantonesque in that I began writing it about ten years ago.


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

now this is gonna be a good book! i wish more artisans would share their stories and technical skills with us not worthy ones! it might raise the whole games and give us all a better product for our money!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The book's been in work. Hopefully by 2007. It is Mantonesque in that I began writing it about ten years ago.


Wow, that's great news...I did not know you had one in progress. Maybe the community here can post reviews on Amazon to help with sales...


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> How would rank the following shirts from 1=Best to 9=Worst in quality?
> 
> Barba, Borrelli, Finamore, Anna Matuozzo, Kiton, Lorenzini, Brioni, Truzzi, Buonomassa (Barba)
> 
> Let me know if I have missed any important lines...


--Just read through this thread as it is of interest, and yes, I'm sure someone will make some begruding sardonic remark, but to get back to the original question:

I will add that one of the more reasonable ways to utilize these RTW shirtmakers are:

1. Have a resonable physique that fits RTW reasonably. Nothing odd.

2. ONLY buy these shirts at deep discount as clearly bespoke is less or the same as the full retail. 
*** Does anyone pay full retail for these RTW shirts anyway on these forum?

3. Some of the ranking are off, ie.. Regular Borrlli is not the royale, regular barba is not gold label. etc.

4. Fabric and Construction:

I would only buy from now on the highest end of each brand at discount, for example, this will counter many of the 3 big critiques: 
1. Price 2. Fabrics 3. Construction

1. Barba Gold Label - I've never paid more than $140
2. Borrelli Royal - I would never pay more than $200
3. Kiton - no experience, but the fabrics are nice too pricy even at discount many times
4. Anna Matuozzo - whatever is the highest line RTW
5. That crazy French brand (Not Italian) 
Etc. You get the idea.

***-Crucial-
Have a tailor clean up the sleeve lengths and trim the torso area and any other minor alterations

If you wish to play the RTW shirt game, it's feasible to reasonbly get a well fitting, well made, with superior materials and great craftmanship for less than $200.

Now can Ascot Chang etc. beat this, maybe...the fit may be slightly more precise depending on how good your tailor is with shirt fit, but can they match the fabrics/construction etc at this price point?

MTM though starts get real interesting even after utilizing RTW in this manner. I'm just not sure you can get the fabrics/construction of the highest end of RTW at this pricepoint with MTM. Perhaps you can broker a deal though to get there if you purchase enough shirts.

What tailor/shirtmaker do you think would get you the most BANG for your BUCK?
Because if they were willing to get you these same fabrics at MTM for less than $200-$300, that would be someone to talk to for alot of us.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

Ascot Chang will do a fairly high MTM (more than just neck and sleeve length measurements like what Borrelli MTM does) with Thomas Mason Silverline fabrics for around $200 --- I did this years ago, so prices may have increased. Those fabrics are about the same quality as the normal Borrelli fabrics.

Anto, a custom shirtmaker in Los Angeles, will make you a completely custom shirt with as many fittings as necessary in the nicest widely available fabrics (eg. Alumo Soyella, SIC Tess Bugatti, etc.) for $325, with an initial order of 6 shirts. These fabrics are probably what's used in the Borrelli Royal line, and may be better.

Construction of both are leagues ahead of the Potemkin handwork Borrelli likes to prop up, and they actually fit well. I've also not been impressed with Finamore, which is like Borrelli Lite.

Cloth selection of custom shirtmakers will almost always be better than any RTW. The exceptions may be RTW people like T&A and designer brands like Etro who may have their own cloths and unique patterns, and Kiton who may use smaller, artisanal shirtings that aren't easily available in the US (eg. Riva), but are available with EU-based shirtmakers.

--Andre


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## Daywalker (Aug 21, 2005)

Yawn.

JAB Signature Gold twills are on sale for $40. Can't beat that.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

Daywalker said:


> Yawn.
> 
> JAB Signature Gold twills are on sale for $40. Can't beat that.


You couldn't pay me $40 dollars to wear JAB, beat that


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Sophistication said:


> You couldn't pay me $40 dollars to wear JAB, beat that


 What is JAB? Beat that!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

With Anna I think it depends on the line but in any event I'm a big fan of even the entry level AM line shirt I have.

Kiton is really special. It wears well, looks good, is super comfortable, well constructed and some I have had for 8 years and still perform beautifully.

Borrellis is very good as well but I have had some trouble with 90s era shirts buttons coming off a few months after I bought them. I think Fabio went through a brief period of quality or mfg adjustment as they do well for me now.

I find Talbott Estates to be nice but not as good as Borrelli or Kiton.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Wow. This is an old thread.

Once again, IMO...

Matuozzo makes great shirts. I have never worn the AM line, but know that it is both outsourced, machine made and, I believe, being discontinued.

Matuozzo makes great shirts from great fabrics. They are not available here and very, very little is RTW. 90% is bespoke.
Kiton makes OK shirts from great fabrics but they fit very large in general.
Borrelli makes OK shirts from OK fabrics and the RC fabrics are pretty darn nice.
Barba doesn't make a great shirt IMO., but my experience is VERY limited.
Finnamore is a little worse than Barba.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Kiton makes OK shirts from great fabrics but they fit very large in general.


It depends on the silhouette/model. There is a slim fitting Italian line, a bulkier American cut, and a balloony German cut often with a cool gathered back at the shoulder blade.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> It depends on the silhouette/model. There is a slim fitting Italian line, a bulkier American cut, and a balloony German cut often with a cool gathered back at the shoulder blade.


Even the Italian model is cut too big. They are just not body conscious in their cut, but the fabrics are nice.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

iammatt said:


> Wow. This is an old thread.
> 
> Once again, IMO...
> 
> ...


Finamore sucks wind. Barba Gold Label vastly surpasses Finamore, standard Borrelli (although I like Borrelli's collars and euro cut as its very lean)

Maybe Anna will develop a decent looking collar for $500


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

Sophistication said:


> Have a tailor clean up the sleeve lengths and trim the torso area and any other minor alterations


Wait wait wait wait wait.

You seem to be advocating spending $150-200 on a shirt and THEN having your tailor fix it up for another $30-60?

I don't mean to be insulting, but do you do procurement for the Federal Government?

That makes NO sense what so ever.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

petro said:


> You seem to be advocating spending $150-200 on a shirt and THEN having your tailor fix it up for another $30-60?


Decent men's stores will alter sleeve length on shirts for no additional charge.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

-------


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

petro said:


> Wait wait wait wait wait.
> 
> You seem to be advocating spending $150-200 on a shirt and THEN having your tailor fix it up for another $30-60?
> 
> ...


--Mr. Yew provides the best response.

"Anto, a custom shirtmaker in Los Angeles, will make you a completely custom shirt with as many fittings as necessary in the nicest widely available fabrics (eg. Alumo Soyella, SIC Tess Bugatti, etc.) for $325, with an initial order of 6 shirts. These fabrics are probably what's used in the Borrelli Royal line, and may be better."

Assuming the fabrics are this high end?

PETRO, Apparently you think it is quite common or you know someone who does what Anto does for less than $200? I want to meet a guy who uses these highest end fabrics, has great collars, construction, inane details, and a really solid MTM ( no internet ) that is really out to do the best job, looking, refining, for less than $160 to $200???

AGAIN, this is strictly if you want to buy RTW dress shirts and get maximum results with them. If you can get $160-$200 MTM, with these materials, construction etc please inform us all?


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Decent men's stores will alter sleeve length on shirts for no additional charge.


--- And even at that, it's not that expensive an undertaking hence why they do it for free many times. 'Decent' is an excellent word in this case.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

I believe that the Royal Collection is 140/2 and above, so they are not really all in the league of a Soyella or a DJA. I imagine that Soyella from Borrelli would retail north of $650. The Riva fabrics that Kiton uses are way nicer that any of the Borrelli or Barba fabrics, but you need to wear them a couple of times before you start to get very much out of them. 

The other assumption is that they are well made. Some are, but many are kind of crappy. The collars are all fused. That is fine, but it really goes against the idea of a soft shirt. Soft, handmade shirts should have unfused collars. The collars are not particularly well designed or cut as there is never any curvature to the collar. They are always very spread and boring.

Charvet and Fray make a nice shirt that is consistent from head to toe. I think that they are better than most of the Italian shirts listed.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

iammatt said:


> I believe that the Royal Collection is 140/2 and above, so they are not really all in the league of a Soyella or a DJA. I imagine that Soyella from Borrelli would retail north of $650. The Riva fabrics that Kiton uses are way nicer that any of the Borrelli or Barba fabrics, but you need to wear them a couple of times before you start to get very much out of them.
> 
> The other assumption is that they are well made. Some are, but many are kind of crappy. The collars are all fused. That is fine, but it really goes against the idea of a soft shirt. Soft, handmade shirts should have unfused collars. The collars are not particularly well designed or cut as there is never any curvature to the collar. They are always very spread and boring.
> 
> Charvet and Fray make a nice shirt that is consistent from head to toe. I think that they are better than most of the Italian shirts listed.


--- While I do agree the one line AM I have does have the soft collar. Very spread so there is no chance for much of any curvature. I will agree standard Borrelli shirts have weak material, however, I find their collars to be quite exceptional looking and their slim cut Euro models, and their colors designs quite nicely done. I can definitly say I would only consider their Royal line at deep discount with measurements that are very keen to mine; knowing what I know now. I don't necessarily care for curvy collars on AM, but who knows what I like to day I may hate later, and vice versa. I think we all are refining are style continously. Always an open mind.

Question: Does anyone else do soft collars other than AM? I can see how this goes well with the more casual elements of neapolitan style.

Question #2: Is this the best value in bespoke dress shirt that anyone is aware of, sounds quite intriguing; :

Mr. Yew:

"Anto, a custom shirtmaker in Los Angeles, will make you a completely custom shirt with as many fittings as necessary in the nicest widely available fabrics (eg. Alumo Soyella, SIC Tess Bugatti, etc.) for $325, with an initial order of 6 shirts. These fabrics are probably what's used in the Borrelli Royal line, and may be better."


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

The AM collars are fused afaik. None of the Neapolitan RTW makers do a soft collar, but many of the British do one.

IIRC, Alex believes strongly in a curved collar. Hopefully he will expound on their merits.


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## Full Canvas (Feb 16, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Oh, God. Get out the Vaseline again. :devil:












_____________________________


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

My Anto test shirt was done in Acorn Grasmere 160/2, and that's a really nice fabric. It's even cheaper than Alumo Soyella ($250 vs. $325), and while it's too soon to tell durability, its hand is very, very nice to the point of making me forget Soyella. It has a nice selection of colors and patterns especially if you like blue:

(lower right)


--Andre


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## LotharoftheHillPeople (Apr 30, 2006)

Full Canvas said:


> _____________________________


I love this album. This discussion, not so much.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Even the Italian model is cut too big.


Matt, Are you calling me fat?


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

Does this Kiton make me look fat? 

--Andre


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## Rollo Tomasi (Mar 19, 2006)

taillfuzz said:


> I prefer Fray to Borrelli. The Fabrics and designs are not quite as conservative. Fray fabrics are exceptional and they are very well made. I often like the Fray as much or more than Kiton shirts; although anything by Kiton is wonderful.


I'm bringing this thread back up to vouch for the great fit, fabric, and styling of Fray. I also wear Brioni, Borrelli, and Charvet and Fray tops them all. Exquisite cotton, thick MOP of buttons, and sublime patterns. I wish Neiman's carried more.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Sophistication said:


> If you can get $160-$200 MTM, with these materials, construction etc please inform us all?


https://www.carlofranco.com/revision0305/shirtorderinfo.htm

:devil:


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Concordia said:


> https://www.carlofranco.com/revision0305/shirtorderinfo.htm
> 
> :devil:


You're having a laugh, mate.


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## UK2004 (Jan 13, 2007)

In my experience taking into account cut, fabric quality, colours, construction etc. I would go Kiton, Borelli, Brioni, Corneliani, Canali, Zegna for the major Italian shirtmakers. Zegna Couture though up with Brioni.

Not come across Finamore in stores, who in Milan stocks their shirts?


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## tiealign (Nov 16, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> How would rank the following shirts from 1=Best to 9=Worst in quality?
> 
> Barba, Borrelli, Finamore, Anna Matuozzo, Kiton, Lorenzini, Brioni, Truzzi, Buonomassa (Barba)
> 
> Let me know if I have missed any important lines...


AM - 1
Kiton - 2
Borrelli - 3
Lorenzini - 3


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## UK2004 (Jan 13, 2007)

Forgot Lorenzini, agree with you on their positioning.


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

Charvet have to be up with Borrelli, Kiton and Brioni.


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## tiealign (Nov 16, 2005)

Tonyp said:


> Charvet have to be up with Borrelli, Kiton and Brioni.


I thought we were only talking about Italian shirts


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

Sorry. I thought I saw references to some other makes early on in the thread.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

iammatt said:


> Anna Matuozzo (not really a line, the bespoke ones)
> 
> Kiton (because the fabrics are nice)
> Borrelli et al
> ...


Is there a picture here? I cannot see it.


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