# Forward vs. Reverse pleats help



## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi everyone,
I've been looking into the classic forward vs. reverse pleat debate and had a few residual questions:

1) It seems forward pleats are traditionally U.K., and reverse pleats are more commonly U.S. styling. Is my info wrong here?

2) Does anybody have any comparison pictures between the two pleat styles? Ideally, the comparison pics would be of two very similar slacks, the only difference being the pleats. 

3) Thoughts on what is more formal? Is it generally a good rule of thumb to wear forward pleats with formal trousers and reverse pleats for all others? (yes-i'm aware of flat fronts but don't really care for them-no offense)

4)Lastly-what options go best with either style? i.e.-double reverse pleats vs single reverse pleats, double forward pleats vs single forward pleats

Thanks in advance for all thoughts, opinions, and advice!!


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

1) Forward pleats are traditionally English, but I associate reverse pleats more with Italian clothing. American clothing used to be more divided between the two, but reverse pleats dominate now. There are still a number of American shops where you can find forward pleats, and they are mostly high-end shops.

2) Both in cotton twill:
Forward Pleats









Reverse Pleats

3) I consider forward pleats to be more formal. White Tie and morning dress don't look right to me with reverse-pleated trousers. Forward pleats are the way to go with those, but flat fronts trousers are also acceptable. I prefer forward pleats for all other trousers as well, whether part of a suit, odd trousers, or chinos. I personally don't see a place for reverse-pleated trousers when forward pleats can get the job done better, IMHO.

4) Double pleats are usually a better choice when getting clothes off the pegs, in either direction. The second pleat helps to keep the main one closed. Single pleats are great too, but they need to be fitted properly.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

I don't know if this will help but I consider forward pleats to be more of a retro style because they were most prominent around the 1930's (?).
Most conventional off-the-rack trousers will come with reverse pleats whether you're buying them in the UK or the US so the forward pleats are for people who want something different.

Personally I find that forward pleats never really hang as well as reverse pleats. The reverse pleats tend to look sharper.


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## cmacey (May 3, 2009)

I have said this before in another posting...I use to wear forward pleats; but for some reason, I switched to reverse pleats. I find them to look great, much to the chagrin of my sisters - they hate pleats. Either way is a personal choice. So if you have sisters like mine, ignore them!, and wear what makes you feel comfortable.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Bonhamesque said:


> I don't know if this will help but I consider forward pleats to be more of a retro style because they were most prominent around the 1930's (?).
> Most conventional off-the-rack trousers will come with reverse pleats whether you're buying them in the UK or the US so the forward pleats are for people who want something different.
> 
> Personally I find that forward pleats never really hang as well as reverse pleats. The reverse pleats tend to look sharper.


I find that many UK clothing websites sell forward pleats, both expensive and inexpensive. Charles Tyrwhitt was making forward pleats up until about 2 or 3 years ago. Compared to online retailers based in America, many more UK stores sell forward pleats. Also, most Savile Row tailors seem to prefer forward pleats. Forward pleats have been popular at times since the 30's. I usually see forward pleats in 1960's British films and television. Forward pleats came back along with reverse pleats in the 1980's. I wear forward pleats because I find that they hang better than reverse pleats. But that is only the case if the trousers have some extra room in the seat and thighs. If you want to see forward pleats that hang well, look at almost any suit from Anderson & Sheppard. Drape is their speciality.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I prefer forward pleats because I believe they just look better. I only wear pleated slacks, and the only reason that many are reverse is that they aren't all bespoke or MTM, and forward pleats are much harder to find. I have no way of knowing if there is a dominance of one form or the other between the UK and US, but prior to the '40's I don't recall seeing many if any reverse pleats, and I think they were the norm in both countries


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

Matt-thanks for the pictures!
And thanks for everyone else's input too!


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

I would suggest forward pleats for suits to give that slight degree of formality but reverse pleats for trousers to mitigate it.


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## lizardking (Oct 18, 2008)

*Other functions of pleats*

My tailor recommended forward pleats because they have the effect of making the trousers look a bit slimmer at the hips. I carry too much extra weight. Reverse pleats open up and make the outer sides of the pants blouse out a bit at the hips. Forward pleats keep the slack inside the edges of the silhouette. (The tailor is from England, so there is cultural bias, too).

My trousers all have single pleats and I don't have a problem with the crease hanging well. Of course, I wear braces and the pants are tailored to fit.


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## RipRoar (Jan 8, 2008)

*Caveat*

Forward pleats *can* look cleaner and drape better than reverse pleats, but the trousers must be worn at the real waist for this to work. Most people today - majority of this board not included - wear their trousers too low on the hips to pull off forward pleats. I am one of these.


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

lizardking said:


> My tailor recommended forward pleats because they have the effect of making the trousers look a bit slimmer at the hips. I carry too much extra weight. Reverse pleats open up and make the outer sides of the pants blouse out a bit at the hips. Forward pleats keep the slack inside the edges of the silhouette. (The tailor is from England, so there is cultural bias, too).
> 
> My trousers all have single pleats and I don't have a problem with the crease hanging well. Of course, I wear braces and the pants are tailored to fit.


I've heard that a lot about forward pleats. Personally, I just don't see any difference. I've got both types. They look the same on me. Maybe it's because I'm kind of slim to start.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

lizardking said:


> My tailor recommended forward pleats because they have the effect of making the trousers look a bit slimmer at the hips. I carry too much extra weight. Reverse pleats open up and make the outer sides of the pants blouse out a bit at the hips. Forward pleats keep the slack inside the edges of the silhouette.


Yes they do. Thanks for that important distinction.


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

lizardking said:


> My tailor recommended forward pleats because they have the effect of making the trousers look a bit slimmer at the hips. I carry too much extra weight. Reverse pleats open up and make the outer sides of the pants blouse out a bit at the hips. Forward pleats keep the slack inside the edges of the silhouette. (The tailor is from England, so there is cultural bias, too).
> 
> My trousers all have single pleats and I don't have a problem with the crease hanging well. Of course, I wear braces and the pants are tailored to fit.


Gents-thanks for the help! Is the effect more limited while wearing a jacket, or can the effect be the same?


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

lizardking said:


> Reverse pleats open up and make the outer sides of the pants blouse out a bit at the hips. Forward pleats keep the slack inside the edges of the silhouette.


Can anyone give a clear explanation of why this would be so? In the archived threads, some people say they find forward pleats hug the body better, while others claim reverse pleats do. Since the empirical evidence is so inconclusive, it would be nice to see an argument based on how the cloth naturally drapes and pulls. But I couldn't find any such explanation that really spelled it out.

If I had to guess, I would say that either style hugs the hips equally well on the sides, because the fabric curves around, but with reverse pleats the front of the trousers is more likely to bag outward (forward), because that part of the waist or hips is flatter and with reverse pleats that part of the fabric is on top and so not held in by anything. But I'm not a tailor and so that's just a guess.

I suppose the forward-pleat crowd could follow up with yes, reverse pleats are more likely to open up for the reason I just described. But once the pleat is open, there's more slack for the sides to bag out, too. Maybe that's what lizardking was getting at (?).


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

FWIW, I think the whole forward vs. reverse pleat thing is somewhat overdone. That said, I prefer forward pleats for two reasons: 1) they're less common, and therefore unusual while being classic, and therefore cool; and 2) the forward opening means that an observer from the front can see into the crevice of the pleat if it pulls open at all. The latter point means that the observer can really _see_ the pleat, and it creates a higher-contrast vertical element. Since the vertical element is one of the big advantages of pleats, that's good, IMO.

I find it very funny, though, that many here say they prefer "flat-fronts or forward pleats," because forward pleats are the "_pleat-iest_" of pleats. They're _more_ apparent to a viewer, they're often deeper, etc. It seems to me that, if you like flat-fronts, you would hate forward pleats the most, and reverse pleats less since they're closer to flat-front. That this isn't the case makes it seem as though their opposition to reverse pleats is based on regurgitation of GQ/Esquire-grade advice and/or having seen lots of cheap, poorly-cut pants that happened to have reverse pleats on them.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Kurt N said:


> Can anyone give a clear explanation of why this would be so?


It's a result of the design. Try a pair of each and you'll observe this in action.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Flanderian, there's got to be a way to describe it, instead of just "compare and you'll see." Maybe it's evident to you, but not to me. (This may just reflect a difference in expertise, to be sure.)

CuffDaddy, your explanation is the clearest I've seen so far on this topic, and it may be correct. I hadn't thought of that at all. Re. the flat-front-or-forward-pleat crowd, maybe their reply is hey, we believe in no half-measures. If you're gonna have pleats, have *PLEATS*!!


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Kurt N said:


> Flanderian, there's got to be a way to describe it, instead of just "compare and you'll see." Maybe it's evident to you, but not to me. (This may just reflect a difference in expertise, to be sure.)
> 
> CuffDaddy, your explanation is the clearest I've seen so far on this topic, and it may be correct. I hadn't thought of that at all. Re. the flat-front-or-forward-pleat crowd, maybe their reply is hey, we believe in no half-measures. If you're gonna have pleats, have *PLEATS*!!


OK, Kurt, I'll take CuffDaddy for five! :icon_smile_big:

A picture is worth a thosand words. In the two photos above, the gent with his hands in his pockets bowing out the pleats is wearing forward pleated slacks, but the line of the pleats still remain within his hips. If the man in the photo below did the same thing, the line of the pleats might very well fall beyond.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

^ Ah ... ! That buzzing sound is a light bulb flickering feebly to life.

I failed to take account of where the pleat meets the waistband. Thinking about your comment and earlier ones, and looking at the pix, I realize that while the tailor may have a little maneuvering room, there's a natural tendency for a forward pleat to end up closer to the midline of the trousers than a reverse pleat would. The creased edge lies closer in, and the excess fabric is distributed more toward the inseam and farther from the outseam.

Sorry if this was a "no, duh" type of insight. But have I got it now?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Kurt N said:


> ^ Ah ... ! That buzzing sound is a light bulb flickering feebly to life.
> 
> I failed to take account of where the pleat meets the waistband. Thinking about your comment and earlier ones, and looking at the pix, I realize that while the tailor may have a little maneuvering room, there's a natural tendency for a forward pleat to end up closer to the midline of the trousers than a reverse pleat would. The creased edge lies closer in, and the excess fabric is distributed more toward the inseam and farther from the outseam.
> 
> Sorry if this was a "no, duh" type of insight. But have I got it now?


Good description! Sounds about right to me.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

CuffDaddy said:


> I find it very funny, though, that many here say they prefer "flat-fronts or forward pleats," because forward pleats are the "_pleat-iest_" of pleats. They're _more_ apparent to a viewer, they're often deeper, etc. It seems to me that, if you like flat-fronts, you would hate forward pleats the most, and reverse pleats less since they're closer to flat-front. That this isn't the case makes it seem as though their opposition to reverse pleats is based on regurgitation of GQ/Esquire-grade advice and/or having seen lots of cheap, poorly-cut pants that happened to have reverse pleats on them.


I don't think it has anything to do with how rakish they are. If one wanted that, they'd specify single forward pleats. The reason is because in many eyes, they look and drape better. The other reason COULD be that some prefer the English look, forward pleats being the lay of the land.

That said, both of my favourite suits have trousers with reverse pleats and I like them just fine, but I might like them better with the pleats facing the other way.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Jovan said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with how rakish they are. If one wanted that, they'd specify single forward pleats. The reason is because in many eyes, they look and drape better. The other reason COULD be that some prefer the English look, forward pleats being the lay of the land.
> 
> That said, both of my favourite suits have trousers with reverse pleats and I like them just fine, but I might like them better with the pleats facing the other way.


I prefer forward pleats, as well. But pants with them are more emphatically pleated than reverse pleated pants. So I find it bizarre when people say they like flat-fronts best, then forward pleats, then reverse pleats.


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

Very insightful, everyone. Sounds like i'll have to go find a pair of forward pleated pants and give them a good 'ol fashioned comparison.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

CuffDaddy said:


> I prefer forward pleats, as well. But pants with them are more emphatically pleated than reverse pleated pants. So I find it bizarre when people say they like flat-fronts best, then forward pleats, then reverse pleats.


I like forward pleats best, then flat fronts, then reverse pleats. Forward pleats offer certain advantages, while flat fronts offer others. Reverse pleats often try to be a compromise in today's fashion, but I'd rather have my trousers one way or the other.


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## emptym (Feb 22, 2008)

Ime, forward pleats make it more comfortable to store things (including hands) in one's pockets.


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm sure the list is endless, but what are some common brands/retail stores that carry forward pleats? Please keep in mind i'm in the mid-west, and generally have access to a smaller selection of stores. Thanks in advance!


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

The list is, sadly, _not_ endless. Finding forward pleats OTR is a bit of a challenge. The most reliable carrier of them I know of is Ben Silver, which has a nice catalog, and a good webstore at www.bensilver.com .


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Finding forward pleats is already hard in Britain from what I hear, to say nothing of the States. You're better off looking for vintage pieces on eBay or ordering from overseas unfortunately.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

MTM_Master? said:


> I'm sure the list is endless, but what are some common brands/retail stores that carry forward pleats? Please keep in mind i'm in the mid-west, and generally have access to a smaller selection of stores. Thanks in advance!


I think Bill's sells some forward pleat khakis. Lands End does too, though I won't vouch for the quality or cut.


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

Bought a pair of forward-pleated slacks today. When they're done being tailored, I'll compare them first hand. Again, thanks for all the input!


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

MTM_Master? said:


> What are some common brands/retail stores that carry forward pleats? Please keep in mind i'm in the mid-west, and generally have access to a smaller selection of stores. Thanks in advance!


Almost all pants sold by Polo Ralph Lauren, suit pants and khakis, have forward facing pleats.

And for those of you thinking about taking a first dip into mild tailoring of your own clothes, changing the direction of the pleats is a good starting point. (Will expand on this if asked.)
​


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Peak and Pine said:


> Almost all pants sold by Polo Ralph Lauren, suit pants and khakis, have forward facing pleats.


The khakis come in forward, reverse, and flat. The very first forward pleats I looked at after becoming aware of the forward/reverse distinction were on a pair of RLP Andrew pants, and I have to say I was struck by how bad they looked. The pleats must I think have been set too far to the outside, because the crease of each inside pleat had to do a sort of J-swoop to meet the trouser crease.

Maybe they were seconds and for sale at an outlet store for exactly that reason. Anyway, I guess this illustrates the point that how pleats are done done matters more than whether they're forward or reverse.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Well, Kurt, the ones covering my ass right now as I type don't do what you just described. Try hand ironing them yourself and line up the creases with the interior pleats. Should work. Am very fond of the Andrew.​


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Didn't mean to offend! Like I say, maybe I was looking at a bad batch. But I can't iron what I didn't buy. :icon_smile_big: Wear yours in good health.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

MTM_Master? said:


> I'm sure the list is endless, but what are some common brands/retail stores that carry forward pleats? Please keep in mind i'm in the mid-west, and generally have access to a smaller selection of stores. Thanks in advance!


Here is a list of brands and retailers that can be found in the US (some are foreign brands sold in the US) that have been known to sell forward pleats. Some may not sell them anymore.

Andover Shop
Ben Silver
Bills Khakis
Bobby Jones (Hickey Freeman)
F. M. Allen
Harolds
House of Carrington
J. L. Powell
Majer
Maus & Hoffman
Nick Hilton
O'Connell's
Patrick James
Paul Stuart
Peter Millar 
Polo Ralph Lauren
Ralph Lauren Purple Label
Samulsohn
Turnbull & Asser

All of these, except for Turnbull & Asser, sell (or sold) double forward pleats. I have a list of English brands that sell (or sold) single forward pleats. Double forward pleats in England appear to be saved for Savile Row bespoke.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Peak and Pine said:


> Well, Kurt, the ones covering my ass right now as I type don't do what you just described. Try hand ironing them yourself and line up the creases with the interior pleats. Should work. Am very fond of the Andrew.​


I love the Andrew as well and have many. I usually wear mine casually and not ironed. I have some of the Polo wool trousers with forward pleats (Dalton and suit trousers) and they seem to have the same cut as the Andrew. The pleats on those always drape well (when pressed well).


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

Matt S said:


> Here is a list of brands and retailers that can be found in the US (some are foreign brands sold in the US) that have been known to sell forward pleats. Some may not sell them anymore.
> 
> Andover Shop
> Ben Silver
> ...


Thanks for the list! I'll have to look into these brands


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

Peak and Pine said:


> And for those of you thinking about taking a first dip into mild tailoring of your own clothes, changing the direction of the pleats is a good starting point. (Will expand on this if asked.)
> ​


That's what I have done to my suit pants and two pairs of everyday pants. I am quite pleased with the results. I was quite nervous at first, but the suit I had was rather boring: Jos. A. Bank executive collection, 3 button, center vent, and pleated pants. I decided that I would do what I could to get it more interesting, so I reversed the direction of the pleats to face forward, added a watch pocket in the waistband, lengthened the vent an inch or two, added buttoning cuffs to the pants, and added a ticket pocket.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Benjamin E. said:


> That's what I have done to my suit pants and two pairs of everyday pants. I am quite pleased with the results. I was quite nervous at first, but the suit I had was rather boring: Jos. A. Bank executive collection, 3 button, center vent, and pleated pants. I decided that I would do what I could to get it more interesting, so I reversed the direction of the pleats to face forward, added a watch pocket in the waistband, lengthened the vent an inch or two, added buttoning cuffs to the pants, and added a ticket pocket.


Wow. Color me impressed. So you fooled arouund with the jacket too?

From where did you pilfer the material for the ticket pocket flap? I've actually cut large triangular pieces from behind the lapels in order to make crotch (chuckle) wedges to give a higher rise, (replacing the gaps left in the jacket with a material of equal heft).

Am surprised that no one has inquired of you or me how these sorts of things are done. My guess is that the majority here are interested in just the shopping and the wearing, not in the tinkering. But hey, I'm like that with cars. ​


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

Peak and Pine said:


> Wow. Color me impressed. So you fooled arouund with the jacket too?
> 
> From where did you pilfer the material for the ticket pocket flap? I've actually cut large triangular pieces from behind the lapels in order to make crotch (chuckle) wedges to give a higher rise, (replacing the gaps left in the jacket with a material of equal heft).
> 
> Am surprised that no one has inquired of you or me how these sorts of things are done. My guess is that the majority here are interested in just the shopping and the wearing, not in the tinkering. But hey, I'm like that with cars. ​


Thank you! I might post pictures. I got the fabric from the hems of the trousers. I have a very short inseam (25"-26") so I often have a lot of leftover fabric. I have enough left over to set up the sleeves for working buttons. I also made crotch seam enhancements because the upper thigh and seat were a bit too snug.


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## Falconboy (May 10, 2008)

Peak and Pine said:


> Almost all pants sold by Polo Ralph Lauren, suit pants and khakis, have forward facing pleats.
> 
> And for those of you thinking about taking a first dip into mild tailoring of your own clothes, changing the direction of the pleats is a good starting point. *(Will expand on this if asked.)*
> ​


Please expand on this :teacha:


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Falconboy said:


> Please expand on this :teacha:


Get a razor blade. Run it underneath the lower most seam of the *insid*e of the waist band at the points above the pleats. You're loosening about a 2" stretch above each. Don't loosen the top of the waist band. Now reach up in and reverse the pleat. Apply masking tape to keep it flat, then step proudly into each leg while thanking me profusely.

That was the quickee way.

The better way is to loosen the waistband as above, reverse the pleats, then* sew them shut*. This is not difficult. You need one needle and a few feet of thread. Practice for a few minutes first on a scrap (such as any _sack_ suit you can find, chortle, chortle)

One complication, particularly with Polo khakis, is the seam on the interior and exterior waist band may be one and the same and when you loosen the inside, you're also loosening the outside. Masking tape won't work here, you'll have to hand-sew the outer waistband to the lower pant fabric before you reverse the pleat. You may find that the old pleat has been sewn into the upper anchor of the pocket linings. This is not difficult to correct and you'll figure out how once you're in there.

All this is worth doing and you'll learn the basics of seam ripping and hand sewing. If you get to the part where you actually have to sew, inform me, and I'll show you the best and easiest ways to maneuver the thread and needle. And stock up on Neosporin and Band-Aids.​


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