# The Charles Tyrwhitt buying experience



## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

I recently ordered a covert coat from Charles Tyrwhitt and thought others might benefit from learning about the experience.

I have been interested in the coat for some time and finally decided to take the plunge. Since the CT website doesn't really provide much information about the coat, I contacted customer service via email with the following list of questions:

1) Is the coat have a taper in the mid section or is it cut straight down from under the arm to the bottom hem?
2) How many interior pockets are there and where are they located?
3) All all of the exterior pockets (including breast and ticket) functional?
4) How heavy is the fabric and what sort of lining (including color) does the coat feature?
5) What size do you recommend for wearing over a sport or suit jacket in a US size 40?
6) In the pictures, the collar looks a bit unstable, does it have any trouble with wrinkles or maintaining shape?
7) What is the sleeve (under arm to sleeve cuff) and overall coat length?
8) How much room is there to take in or let out the coat if needed?​
A representative responded the next day with the following response:

"I am glad to know that you are interested in purchasing the Fawn Covert Coat from Charles Tyrwhitt.
Please accept my apologies because I do not have the answers to most of your questions now. However, I have asked my Buying Team to provide more information and I shall get back to you as soon as I have the answers for you.
I hope this meets with your approval and I do apologise once again for any inconvenience caused. If I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me."​
After another exchange, the representative said the buying team would have to send him a coat. That seemed like an unusually lengthy and unnecessary process for discovering something that should be relatively straightforward for a clothing retailer. Consequently, the rep reassured me that I could return the coat for a full refund and not pay for shipping if I was unsatisfied with the coat.

Consequently, I placed the order on 10/15/2009. According to the email receipt from CT, the coat should arrive no later than Monday, 11/2/2009. I wasn't happy with the shipping times but accepted it anyway. Well, Monday came and went and no coat. I contacted their toll free customer service to see about tracking the coat and they said that wasn't possible.

I was leaving on a business trip the next day and wanted to take the coat with me and so I explained to the rep that I was very disappointed. He said that since they couldn't track the package, they would simply send me a replacement, which I took as a very generous gesture on their part (and a good step toward retaining a lifelong customer).

While away on my trip, I received a call from the same CT rep telling me that they would not be sending another coat because now they were able to track the package and that it was delivered. This seemed suspicious to me but upon returning home this morning, I found the package waiting for me.

On one hand, I'm pleased that it arrived but on the other, there I am very upset over how this was handled. I was told at the time of ordering and later in my initial conversation with the rep that tracking the shipment was impossible. Yet, low and behold after they promised to send a replacement coat, the company snapped into action. The official reason from the rep as to why the package was delayed more than a week was due to a customs problem. Ultimately, there was nothing more than a verbal apology for the problems and confusion.

Although I do love the coat, the actual buying and customer service process was so disappointing that I can't see myself buying anything from them in the future. Moreover, I certainly wouldn't recommend them to anyone. It's disappointing as they seem to make a good product but the remaining process of the customer relationship was lacking. Ultimately, if I wanted that level of service, I'd buy something from Costco where I don't expect reps to know about the products they sell.

For fun, here pictures of the unveiling process and answers to most of my original questions (for anyone interested in the coat for himself):

The box was damaged a bit on top, which provided some anxiety:

The coat was sealed in a canvas cover:

Upon removing the cover, the coat was wrapped in plastic:









After removing the plastic and inspecting the coat, I was relieved there was no damage:









There are two interior pockets and as you can see, the color is burgundy:

A view of the left inside pocket:









A close-up of the sleeve and hem detailing:

















A better view of the felt collar along with a view from the rear - although it isn't readily noticeable here, the coat is tapered:










Finally, a much better view of the weave:


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## Sir Walter (Jun 23, 2007)

Congratulations on your new coat. I am glad that you are happy with the product and that the coat was not damaged or in any other way to your disliking. I must admit however, i don't fully agree with your gripe. The coat was being sent from overseas by a third party. Delays in shipping can happen especially from other countries. It appears to me as though CT attempted to be very graceful in their reply. Most companies that I have dealt with including BB and STP all have product specialist who are responsible for conveying specific product knowledge. In the end you received what you paid for and in a timely fashion. Had you not been away you would have been able to enjoy your new purchase sooner. Maybe if you had communicated your specific time concerns you could have had a more clearer understanding.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Sir Walter said:


> Congratulations on your new coat. I am glad that you are happy with the product and that the coat was not damaged or in any other way to your disliking. I must admit however, i don't fully agree with your gripe. The coat was being sent from overseas by a third party. Delays in shipping can happen especially from other countries. It appears to me as though CT attempted to be very graceful in their reply. Most companies that I have dealt with including BB and STP all have product specialist who are responsible for conveying specific product knowledge. In the end you received what you paid for and in a timely fashion. Had you not been away you would have been able to enjoy your new purchase sooner. Maybe if you had communicated your specific time concerns you could have had a more clearer understanding.


My apologies for not being more clear, I did make the time constraints of my trip known at the time of ordering and to the rep on the phone after the coat did not arrive. Having ordered and shipped products and deliverables around the globe, a delivery time of nearly a month is simply unacceptable but ultimately, that is a decision each individual buyer must make for himself or herself, which is why I posted my experience above.

Perhaps the component which displeased me the most was the tracking information problem. If CT had simply employed the same process they ultimately used to track the shipping status of the coat from the beginning, much of the frustration would have been alleviated.


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## kev777 (Jul 14, 2009)

Sir Walter said:


> Congratulations on your new coat. I am glad that you are happy with the product and that the coat was not damaged or in any other way to your disliking. I must admit however, i don't fully agree with your gripe. The coat was being sent from overseas by a third party. Delays in shipping can happen especially from other countries. It appears to me as though CT attempted to be very graceful in their reply. Most companies that I have dealt with including BB and STP all have product specialist who are responsible for conveying specific product knowledge. In the end you received what you paid for and in a timely fashion. Had you not been away you would have been able to enjoy your new purchase sooner. Maybe if you had communicated your specific time concerns you could have had a more clearer understanding.


Agreed +1 Cant see any problem and moreover where is the damage on the box which gave you some anxiety ?? Looks very decent to say its travelled some ways. Coat looks bang on and i hope you wear it with less anxiety and in good health.


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## 46L (Jan 8, 2009)

It's a beautiful coat. Wear it well. 

FWIW, my first order from CT came in an unmarked box that looked like it was run over. In addition to the tow shirts that I ordered (which were bagged and undamaged), the box included 3 VHS tapes that someone had accidentally packed as well.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

46L said:


> It's a beautiful coat. Wear it well.
> 
> FWIW, my first order from CT came in an unmarked box that looked like it was run over. In addition to the tow shirts that I ordered (which were bagged and undamaged), the box included 3 VHS tapes that someone had accidentally packed as well.


I have to ask: what was on the tapes?


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

My own experience in ordering from CT is that shipping times are a complete crapshoot and, yes, their boxes almost always arrive looking like a team of gorillas handled the delivery. That said, the price is right for a lot of their merchandise (especially on season-end clearance sales), and I'm not wandering around naked, so I'm willing to accept the randomness of the delivery times (once in just five business days, another time nearly two months, and several others of various durations in between).


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## trims (Apr 12, 2007)

Ever tried tracking something through the USPS? It's unreliable at best, and often there are no updates until something is delivered. I see no problem in their response about being unable to track. I have the same issues when ordering from them, but everything always arrives. 

Yes, they could send via UPS or Fed-x and have it easily trackable, and arrive in 3 days, but the cost would be significantly higher.

And that box is far from what I would consider damaged, considering that a soft coat is inside it. 

To say you wouldn't recommend this company to anyone, even after they initially planned on sending you a replacement coat, seems a bit much. But just my 2 cents.


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## 46L (Jan 8, 2009)

DrewMcManus said:


> I have to ask: what was on the tapes?


I never got a chance to play them. I didn't have my VCR hooked up at the time. The labels looks like they were an assortment of bad movies, but I don't remember any titles.

My wife threw them out. I think she was afraid they were the real life version of "The Ring."


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## harland (Oct 13, 2008)

I recently ordered some shirts from CT. I too was disappointed by the fact that you couldn't track the package. But hey - the package is changing hands one postal service to another so I don't begrudge them that.

Curiously, though, in 'Customer Services' under delivery timescales, they do mention that it usually takes 15 working days to ship to the US. I guess the estimated arrival date in the email was a bit optimistic.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Whether your item is trackable or not depends on the service you paid for. Some services do not provide tracking. Anyways, the box seem intact: I've recieved boxes that looked like they've been through two world wars and back...


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## Piglit (Oct 8, 2009)

Interesting the "Fine English Cloth" label on the inside.
It would be nice to know just what that cloth is and, er, where the garment was made.

Still a nice looking piece of kit and no mistake.

Never forget that CT are a fast moving high vol warehouse operation with a Jermyn Street front.

PS I have only bought once from them and as I was out when the courier called he left the package in the dustbin!


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

In all honesty I think they should have had some of the questions answered already in the coat ad like length for example. A picture of the interior and pocket count should have been in the ad as well. I would just have assumed all the pockets would be functional considering the maker. They also should have had detailed info on their help line or at least a coat sample they could look at to answer some of the questions. 

You also pressed them pretty hard and harder than most might as you are a clothes-aholic like the rest of us. I dont think they did that badly but a return call with answers would have been better than shipping the coat. The shipping time is always a function of cost and if you wanted they probably could have fedex'd it to you if you wanted to pay the freight.

The box had about the same amount of damage many of mine have when they get to my front door and that isn't something CT can control obviously.

In the end its a very nice coat.


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## Flashy (Mar 15, 2006)

Crazy question. When the customer service people couldn't answer your question, why didn't you call the one of the CT stores in New York and talk to a sales associate directly? I


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

46L said:


> It's a beautiful coat. Wear it well.
> 
> FWIW, my first order from CT came in an unmarked box that looked like it was run over. In addition to the tow shirts that I ordered (which were bagged and undamaged), the box included 3 VHS tapes that someone had accidentally packed as well.


That's curious. What was on them?


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Flashy said:


> Crazy question. When the customer service people couldn't answer your question, why didn't you call the one of the CT stores in New York and talk to a sales associate directly? I


I thought about that but the website was clearly moving customers in this direction so I assumed that was by design. I suppose the same question could have been redirected to the customer service rep that originally replied.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

trims said:


> To say you wouldn't recommend this company to anyone, even after they initially planned on sending you a replacement coat, seems a bit much. But just my 2 cents.


Perhaps but I also believe that in order to improve the base level of service for any industry, those buying the goods or services must expect more than less. The fact that they offered a replacement coat right off before anything else seemed odd to me.

Let's assume this is standard practice and not merely a rep acting on his own initiative. If that is how they conduct business, it would be interesting to see whether or not it would be more cost effective to simply make standard shipping rates similar to what currently exists but through a provider that offers the ability to track packages. The shipper may be more expensive but is the end coast less than what they lose due to sending out full replacements when an order doesn't arrive by the promised delivery date?

I suppose what was most irksome was the fact that they said tracking was not possible yet turn around a few days later to say they tracked down the shipment. At best, it is sloppy business practice and at worst, well, let's simply say it's just worst.

For me, this crosses the recommendation line but your millage and expectations may differ, which is why I hoped others would chime in. This way, other forum members can take everything into consideration and make decisions they feel most comfortable with.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Frankly, it would appear to me that you could very well be making mountains out of molehills. 
From your description of the transaction, one might perceive that the "problems" you describe could be more a matter of your own self-imposed expectations, than any failure of performance on the part of the supplier.

It was your decision to order the item before your questions were answered, and might we deduce that once you received the coat, there were no unsatisfactory answers to your questions? You do not mention any, nor (does it appear) did you take the supplier up on their rather generous offer of a refund, _including shipping_.

I might also guess that you may have not had experience with a very large number of international transactions. 
Unless an item is shipped via an (expensive) expedited shipping service, shipping times can vary greatly and are entirely beyond the control of the shipper. (And yes, customs can delay _any_ shipment from abroad.)

You also appear to be confusing tracking with delivery confirmation, and you shouldn't. They are two very different issues. 
USPS tracking is anything but "minute-to-minute." It is not always very easy with USPS to determine exactly _where _a package is. (I currently have a package in _domestic _shipment via USPS, with paid delivery confirmation. It has already been in transit for over two weeks, there have been both a 5-day and a 6-day lag in any tracking information during this time, _and _the package has yet to be delivered.) On the other hand, I have always found their delivery confirmation to be accurate and reliable.
In your case, you are dealing with an interchange between two postal services, plus customs in between. Do you honestly expect the supplier of this item to be able to precisely locate it at the particular moment of your inquiry?

(And the offer to replace your item, even though no loss had yet been confirmed, was _exceptionally _generous.)

As for the condition of the package, I see in your photo a very well-packed shipment, with absolutely no signs of anything I would consider damage, especially considering that it is an international shipment!

Considering the facts as you have stated them, I see every reason to be happy with this transaction, and to _wholeheartedly _recommend doing business with this company, based on your experience.

I find the greatest success is to be had if transactions are conducted on the basis of collaboration, rather than confrontation. Even if true problems arise (and it would appear none did, in your case) a collaborative approach usually, in my experience, results in the most satisfactory solutions.

Of course, if the other party in a transaction does not respond responsibly, I can be quite a bit more than "firm". (Trust me, you do _not _want to be on the receiving end of this.) However, unless and until that party behaves deceitfully, my experience is that cooperating on finding solutions, as opposed to immediately making demands, almost always brings the better results.


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## flinch (Sep 8, 2008)

That is a beautiful coat and the collar is what makes it so interesting. Great contrast between the soft feminine collar and the tight rugged whipcord on the coat. I'll bet the Ladies comment on it often.
I must say with your high anxiety and drama level Charles Tyrwhitt may be greatful you wont be a repeat customer.


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## eamuscatuli3 (Jun 12, 2006)

flinch said:


> I must say with your high anxiety and drama level Charles Tyrwhitt may be greatful you wont be a repeat customer.


Agreed.


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## Siggy (Jan 14, 2006)

eamuscatuli3 said:


> Agreed.


Agree as well. You got the coat and it looks good, quit complaining.


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## Mr_David (Jun 14, 2009)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> From your description of the transaction, one might perceive that the "problems" you describe could be more a matter of your own self-imposed expectations, than any failure of performance on the part of the supplier.


Agreed. Having done business with CT for years, I have always had top-notch service from them. Their reps are polite, they answer phones & e-mails promptly, and their delivery is extremely consistent.

Amazing the good service that you will find when you are easy to work with yourself...


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## txmusician (May 14, 2009)

Drew,

It's nice seeing you on here! I particularly enjoy your website. I am a musician in the Dallas Symphony.


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## Jae iLL (Nov 14, 2009)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Frankly, it would appear to me that you could very well be making mountains out of molehills.
> From your description of the transaction, one might perceive that the "problems" you describe could be more a matter of your own self-imposed expectations, than any failure of performance on the part of the supplier.
> 
> It was your decision to order the item before your questions were answered, and might we deduce that once you received the coat, there were no unsatisfactory answers to your questions? You do not mention any, nor (does it appear) did you take the supplier up on their rather generous offer of a refund, _including shipping_.
> ...


Good post. I've lived in Korea for a couple years now, and have ordered things mostly USPS, but also through FedEx and whatever tracking issues arise I don't blame on who I'm ordering from as they do not own either shipping company.

Also, I used to work for UPS so I know how things get from point A to B and the steps in between. Of the thousands of packages that go through one truck in an hour some packages do break open or get left at the hub or for any number of reasons can lead to a gap in the tracking process.


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## Friedrichsen (Oct 8, 2009)

I think it is okay to have high standards, so I am not gonna flame you for that. I wanna thank you for giving such a great review and deliver some photos of a coat that I now HAVE to buy. It appears great value for money and you have convinces me of getting it. I hope delivering-time to my country is a bit shorter, though.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

If CT's service was bad, you will go berserk with New&Lingwood's.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

At least they had delivery confirmation so you could know it arrived, and they could know they didn't have to ship a second coat.


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## Friedrichsen (Oct 8, 2009)

I forgot to ask - What about the weight of the cloth? Is it a winter-coat? How about fit over your normal suit?


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

I would like to know where the coat is made. I am looking at a coat like this as well, though I prefer the look of the Crombie version (675 pounds) and the New & Lingwood (495 pounds) because they each have slanted pockets.

Anyone have any experience with ordering from either?


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

txmusician said:


> Drew,
> 
> It's nice seeing you on here! I particularly enjoy your website. I am a musician in the Dallas Symphony.


Well hello! Please give Matt Good a big howdy from me


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Friedrichsen said:


> I forgot to ask - What about the weight of the cloth? Is it a winter-coat? How about fit over your normal suit?


It is a mid weight cloth - not really suitable for heavy duty cold unless you have a heavy winter suit on under. It fits best with a suit (the sleeves don't seem as slushy) than over casual wear but looks good either way.

One thing I'm looking to purchase to have when wearing the coat with a shirt and no jacket in very cold weather is a thin quilted lining to help improve insulation. I haven't found anything yet but I know I've seen them around so I'm bound to run into something ideal sooner than later.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> If CT's service was bad, you will go berserk with New&Lingwood's.


Thanks, that's the sort of thing that's worth hearing in advance.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Siggy said:


> Agree as well. You got the coat and it looks good, quit complaining.


I have to say that I'm a bit taken back by some of the responses like those above.

Having worked my entire career in a business (orchestral classical music) that is well known for once being a form of unchallenged high art to one looking into the very real prospect of becoming culturally irrelevant, I have a bit of perspective on this issue.

The problem with my experience has nothing to do with the quality of the coat, instead, the problem comes down to everything connected to the actual product. Knowing full well the differences between something as trivial as confirmation delivery and tracking, dismissing the observations by poking at the observer is, at best, a logical fallacy. And regardless of good the coat is, it isn't mutually exclusive from everything else involved with obtaining it.

Likewise, it doesn't matter how much impact an opera has on the listener if said ticket buyer is displeased with parking, seating comfort, lobby amenities, etc. s/he is far less likely to buy another ticket. I hear this all the time in market research "I loved the music, but..." when presenting these observations to clients, it is common to hear reasons and excuses for everything, some legitimate and others not but in the end, these observations matter. In fact, they make the difference between success and failure.

Orchestras sound better than ever but audiences and outside of a few shining examples, funding is declining for a variety of reasons, some of which are beyond control of those in the business but much of it is due to insular attitudes that didn't produce negative results until years after the fact. Nonetheless, even as ensembles are filing for bankruptcy and slashing budgets to the point of no longer being capable of supporting acceptable artistic production, there are those who govern and manage that fail to see that the problem is internal.

Ultimately, I hope the world of sartorial pursuits isn't walking down the same path as classical music. I don't think I could stand to see two things I love dearly suffer from the same self fulfilling prophecy.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

I think you overlook an important difference in the parallels you draw between going to an opera and buying an overcoat. The reason the parking etc. is important in the former, whereas little niggles in customer service are of less importance in the latter, is because going to the opera is a transitory experience. The pleasant memory of the musical experience is more easily tainted by any hassle surrounding it. You'll be able to enjoy your coat for years.

So anything which disrupts the enjoyment of an opera is going to carry much more weight as it has the potential to ruin the overall experience.

Apples and oranges in my opinion.

And while live classical music is undoubtedly under pressure from its recorded counterpart, the fact is that classical music is distributed and available on a vastly wider scale and to a much broader audience now than it was either at its time of composition, when it was an extremely elitist and exclusive experience, or even one hundred years ago before the advent of mass media. So it is orders of magnitude more culturally relevant now than it was then. And as the Metropolitan Opera and the Berlin Philharmonic have shown, the future of live classical music and opera is in the worldwide live syndication of performances via satellite and internet distribution. Under this selection pressure excellence and innovative methods for reaching new customers will thrive and expand, and mediocrity will perish. In this respect, fine tailoring and live orchestras have much in common.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

DrewMcManus said:


> I have to say that I'm a bit taken back by some of the responses like those above.
> 
> Having worked my entire career in a business (orchestral classical music) that is well known for once being a form of unchallenged high art to one looking into the very real prospect of becoming culturally irrelevant, I have a bit of perspective on this issue.
> 
> ...


You may find value in some honest and reflective self assessment. 
From everything that might be deduced from your telling, I have the distinct impression that the company provided you with exceptional service and an excellent product. On the other hand, you appear to have been somewhat of a "problem customer." (I will leave the description at that, for the sake of civility.)
Several people seem to have seen the situation in a similar light. As such, I believe you might derive greater value in taking pains to see in what small way they may have been right, rather than going to great length to explain why they are wrong.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> You may find value in some honest and reflective self assessment.
> From everything that might be deduced from your telling, I have the distinct impression that the company provided you with exceptional service and an excellent product. On the other hand, you appear to have been somewhat of a "problem customer." (I will leave the description at that, for the sake of civility.)
> Several people seem to have seen the situation in a similar light. As such, I believe you might derive greater value in taking pains to see in what small way they may have been right, rather than going to great length to explain why they are wrong.


All things being equal, that would be easy solution wouldn't it? Without going into self serving explanations as to my own evaluation process, opinion throughout this tiny cross section of feedback seems to be divided and the issue has far less to do with any absolute notion of right and wrong and more with customer perception. Even though the latter will always be subjective, it is still what drives the spending habits that determine a business' fortunes.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Finian McLonergan said:


> I think you overlook an important difference in the parallels you draw between going to an opera and buying an overcoat. The reason the parking etc. is important in the former, whereas little niggles in customer service are of less importance in the latter, is because going to the opera is a transitory experience. The pleasant memory of the musical experience is more easily tainted by any hassle surrounding it. You'll be able to enjoy your coat for years.
> 
> So anything which disrupts the enjoyment of an opera is going to carry much more weight as it has the potential to ruin the overall experience.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree that on many levels the comparisons are apples and oranges but to that extent, a true apples to apples comparison isn't really obtainable. Yet the point about the transitory experience is right on the mark for both business. In the case of one, the customer is the one in transition whereas with the other (when ordering items from abroad) it is in reverse.

Regardless of how much I enjoy my new coat, wearing it will remind me of the buying experience and reinforce my decision to refrain from additional purchases until changes in service are implemented. Fortunately, forums such as this and the willingness of members to share experiences and observations make that process far less risky than having to reaffirm through direct experience.

Your points about recordings and classical music are a fascinating (albeit the conclusions are somewhat incorrect) and a worthwhile discussion in and of itself, but probably not best suited for this part of the discussion board. If you care to pick it up on something like the White Tie board, I'd be happy to oblige.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

DrewMcManus said:


> A close-up of the sleeve and hem detailing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like a nice coat, however, I'm afraid that the sleeve detailing would make it difficult for the local tailors to shorten the sleeve. The local tailors (and when I say local, I have to drive two hours) are incapable of shortening sleeves with faux working buttons and have to remove the stitching to do so. I hate to imagine what they'd do this coat.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

harland said:


> I recently ordered some shirts from CT. I too was disappointed by the fact that you couldn't track the package. But hey - the package is changing hands one postal service to another so I don't begrudge them that.


This probably isn't the forum for this question, but I have always wondered how the USPS sends and receives packages or letters through foreign postal services.


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## Plush (May 18, 2009)

*coat was sold to a hand wringer*

Buying coats and anything other than shirts and ties from any on-line retailer is a crap shoot re fit. They can describe it all they want on the telephone, but you still had no opportunity to try it on before buying it.

I like the coat and I also like my own buying experiences from CT. Their shirts and ties have been shipped to me with routine arrival.

I cannot agree that they treated you badly and I see that they sent the coat by what is basically regular mail. If you required the coat on a certain day, one would imagine that you would have to pay for FedEx or UPS express delivery from the UK. That high shipping cost would hardly be worth it.

All in all I find the OP's complaints to be not holding enough weight to veer me off course from buying from CT again.

As for his comparisons to classical music, the OP knows very well that classical music organizations are not comparable to retailers.

Classical music is heard today by an absolutely huge audience--larger than ever before in history. Mr. McManus's points about financial challenges have to do with the challenges of presenters and large symphony orchestra organizations.

There are more orchestras now than ever and more concerts of all types of classical music now than ever before. The audience and financial backers for classical music is what has shrunk.

I fear that the coat was sold to a hand wringer.


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## Earlgrey (Nov 20, 2009)

*beautiful coat*

Recently I intended to buy the same coat but finally I switched to the peacoat from CT. I got it last Friday and it is pretty ok for my standard.

I am still considering the covert coat as well. Just need to see whether Navy or Fawn is more suitable.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Plush said:


> Classical music is heard today by an absolutely huge audience--larger than ever before in history. Mr. McManus's points about financial challenges have to do with the challenges of presenters and large symphony orchestra organizations.
> 
> There are more orchestras now than ever and more concerts of all types of classical music now than ever before. The audience and financial backers for classical music is what has shrunk.


I agree that classical music (orchestral and opera) is performed before a broader audience than ever before but to assert that financial challenges are restricted to presenters and large budget organizations is simply incorrect and a dangerous misnomer to purport. The reality is organizations of all budget size have been impacted by the economic downturn. As for large budget orchestras, the LA Philharmonic and San Francisco Symphony both signed labor agreements with musicians, conductors, and guest artists that include regular annual increases whereas other groups like the Philadelphia Orchestra and Cleveland Orchestra have experienced opposite fortunes.

Some smaller budget groups are doing better than ever while others like the New Mexico Symphony or on the brink of bankruptcy. As for mid budget organizations, the Honolulu Orchestra are filing bankruptcy while Naples Philharmonic is holding steady. Simply put, there's no basis for making universal categorizations; instead, each group is impacted more by the local economy, the quality of board members, and the effectiveness of executive administrators.

The discussion surround audience and donors is fascinating and complex. Unfortunately, there simply isn't enough reliable data to conclude if the overall audience is significantly larger or smaller on a per capita basis. There have been plenty of recent studies that have concluded ticket sales for cultural offerings are declining (which are supported by ticket sales figures form performing arts organizations) but as to whether or not the the audience has declined is unknown (not to mention potential).

As for donors, there has always been a slow shift in donor focus as a percentage of performing arts revenue steams. Perhaps unsurprisingly, corporate donors have dropped in the past year but there's no indication that won't return to previous levels once the economy improves. Large donors gifts are mixed while small donations are up across the board. This shift is no different than previous changes from one decade to the next. The challenge for performing arts organizations is to manage those changes in revenue streams so cumulative revenue reaches necessary levels to support acceptable artistic offerings.

Also unsurprisingly, organizations that have identified and prepared for this are faring much better in today's economic climate than those which haven't.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Earlgrey said:


> Recently I intended to buy the same coat but finally I switched to the peacoat from CT. I got it last Friday and it is pretty ok for my standard.
> 
> I am still considering the covert coat as well. Just need to see whether Navy or Fawn is more suitable.


I selected the Fawn color becasue I was tired of the standard dark colors that dominate outerwear in the Chicagoland area.


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## Naive. Jr. (Dec 4, 2008)

*Chicago is well organized, but not psychologically equipped*



eamuscatuli3 said:


> Agreed.


Chicago is a place where efficiency is an ideal. The anxiety and drama are relative to lack of experience with how things work outside Chicago. Tis a pity that Charles Tyrwhitt doesn't inform regarding details. Probably there were too many questions asked at once.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

Naive said:


> Chicago is a place where efficiency is an ideal. The anxiety and drama are relative to lack of experience with how things work outside Chicago. Tis a pity that Charles Tyrwhitt doesn't inform regarding details. Probably there were too many questions asked at once.


No argument with you about that perception of Chicago. But I've only lived here four years and most of my clients are NYC, European, and Middle East and it has always been fascinating to see the similarities and differences in business practices.


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## Naive. Jr. (Dec 4, 2008)

*Good question about N&L and Crombie*



peterc said:


> I would like to know where the coat is made. I am looking at a coat like this as well, though I prefer the look of the Crombie version (675 pounds) and the New & Lingwood (495 pounds) because they each have slanted pockets.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with ordering from either?


Your problem is more interesting for me because I am more interested in the design and execution of the coat than the service. So a comparison of the various interpretations of the same coat would interest me very much.

1. I know that CT has lousy service from experience. It was necessary for me to write the boss and thank God I kept the document of payment - otherwise they refused to cooperate.

2. Crombie is inconsequent in communication. Especially if you need to speak to one of the stores. Their sale offers substantially reduced prices.

3. New & Lingwood is nice in first contact, but simply ignores any detail in shipping - little conscience. When Director Justin Sumrie does something - like write a letter to customs to explain why the shoes aren't bespoke - he does it well, but he seems to be out of reach, although not as much as Purdey salepersons. But shipping of ordered articles requires more patience than our art director from Chicago (I don't know if he's a native Chicagoan or not) has. N&L doesn't bother to apologize for stupid and expensive mistakes like identifying "Tailored Shirts" as "T-shirts" which cause Customs to check the N&L website where the sale prices no longer are advertised. I'm on the Swiss Customs black list because N&L was sloppy. As that expert member here WASH pointed out to me, the fraying and thread loosening of my N&L whipcord field coat reveals inferior cloth.


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## andrewcorreia (Jan 21, 2009)

*Covert Coat*

I'm so glad to hear that you are pleased with the coat! I just ordered one in Navy. What is the weight of the fabric? It was difficult for me to tell in the photograph, whether or not the coat was full or mid length. Either way, it looks magnificent.


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## DrewMcManus (Apr 5, 2005)

andrewcorreia said:


> I'm so glad to hear that you are pleased with the coat! I just ordered one in Navy. What is the weight of the fabric? It was difficult for me to tell in the photograph, whether or not the coat was full or mid length. Either way, it looks magnificent.


sorry for the delayed response but to answer your questions:

1) The coat comes to my knees
2) It isn't a heavy duty coat but I have been doing fine with the drop in temps, especially if I wear a heavy suit and a good scarf. In strong winds (like we have here in Chicago) you can feel the lighter weight but it hasn't prevented me from wearing it yet.


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## mjc (Nov 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> If CT's service was bad, you will go berserk with New&Lingwood's.


Yes, I emailed N&L on Monday to get information about the sizing of their "The Duke" overcoat. No response. Nothing. It is the Christmas rush, though...

Does anyone here have that coat?

- Mike


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

Naive said:


> Your problem is more interesting for me because I am more interested in the design and execution of the coat than the service. So a comparison of the various interpretations of the same coat would interest me very much.
> 
> 1. I know that CT has lousy service from experience. It was necessary for me to write the boss and thank God I kept the document of payment - otherwise they refused to cooperate.
> 
> ...


I am saddened to hear about your N&L experience. I really want their covert fawn coat. Now, I am less sure. Still, so far my 2 UK buying experiences have been 100% positive: Bodiley's in Northampton for a pair of Chelsea Boots in chesnut a few years ago;and a few weeks ago, a nice less expensive pair of Chelsea boots from Herring's in waxy brown. Both were shipped well and promptly and Herring's even included a jar of polish and a shoe horn. Bodiley's even called me LONG DISTANCE and left a long message asking if a 6 week delay in my order was OK before they charged my card. Plus, Bodiley's ships free world wide and uses registered mail too, so someone has to sign for it.

Most likely I should have ordered that N&L coat I like and those navy shoes at least one month ago.


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## Naive. Jr. (Dec 4, 2008)

Communication with N&L is much better by phone than by Email.


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## Naive. Jr. (Dec 4, 2008)

Don't be saddened by my experience with N&L. It didn't kill me - I learned from it. If you decide to order a covert coat, perhaps the price will be reduced very soon after Christmas. I would appreciate knowing your experience. - As far as Chelsea boots are concerned, the Australian RM Williams are supposed to be unique because they are made of one leather piece. Sator was very enthusiastic awhile ago about them.


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