# Barack....Lecturer in Chief!



## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

“America is …, uh, is no longer, uh … what it could be, what it once was. And I say to myself, I don’t want that future for my children.” - Barack Obama (August 2008)

“For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country.” - Michelle Obama (Feb. 2008)

Does this mean that even when America was what it should have been Michelle Obama was not proud of it?


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

If anyone wants to sling things at least take a few seconds to get the quote right. One can view the famous remark in its entirety here:



And read it here:

"What we have learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback. And let me tell you something -- for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. And I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment. I've seen people who are hungry to be unified around some basic common issues, and it's made me proud."

--A.Q.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Reading the full quote does nothing to lessen its absurdity.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Did you guys see the Obama fluff piece in the NYT that falsely claimed Obama was offered tenure at Chicago?


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Quay said:


> If anyone wants to sling things at least take a few seconds to get the quote right. One can view the famous remark in its entirety here
> 
> And read it here:
> 
> ...


If you take a few more seconds, you can get it even more 'right', by recognizing that the quote you cite is not the only one. She has said at least a couple of versions which do differ somewhat.

In any case, it is interesting that in her ~25 years of adult life, she has only now become proud of her country.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^ While I certainly prefer that "Barack" not become the next president of this great nation, should such happen, I would be so much more distressed by the reality that "Michelle" would be our First Lady...what an insult that would be to so many Americans!


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

*And when did John McCain start loving America?*

John McCain has repeatedly stated that he didn't love our country until he was captured as a POW during Vietnam. Here's what McCain said in March on FOX:

"I didn't really love America until I was deprived of her company."

Then there's McCain in 1999:

"It wasn't until I was deprived of her company that I fell in love with America."

McCain was 31 years old when he was captured. 31. Far into adulthood. So McCain was fighting for our country, a country he didn't love. And we're supposed to respect the military service of a man who didn't love his country. Then why was he fighting?


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

jackmccullough said:


> John McCain has repeatedly stated that he didn't love our country until he was captured as a POW during Vietnam. Here's what McCain said in March on FOX:
> 
> "I didn't really love America until I was deprived of her company."
> 
> ...


LOL--If there's an award for "Most Desperate Post of the Year," I know which one I'm gonna nominate!


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

*Oh, and another thing*

Who cares about the president's wife?


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

jackmccullough said:


> Who cares about the president's wife?


A couple months ago one was a handful of superdelegates away from winning the Democrat nomination for president...


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

*If McCain loved America, he'd abdicate to Ron Paul.*

An underachieving childs parents should not be proud of the child. They can love the child, but heaping undeserved pride would be wrong.

Same with America. It is not living up to it's potential. I'm not proud of it. The Obamas love America and hence choose to improve the country instead of being complacent with a slipping mediocrity.

Oh, why was McCain fighting? Page one of common knowledge about John S. McCain III is that he is military royalty - a father and grandfather who were four star admirals. He was unquestionably in the family business (which admittedly shows far greater love of country than anyone in the Bush administration ever had).


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Plenty of people on the left share this way of thinking, no doubt. 

They can have no pride in their country because it has imperfections. They cannot be proud of the good things that it does because there are other things it does that they think are wrong. 

Michelle could take no pride in anything that America did in her ~25 years of adulthood because there were also imperfections that went along with it. 

But wait... now it appears that her husband could be elected. Bingo! instant pride in America... so she claims. America had now earned her platitudes because many seem to agree with her and her husband's political philosophy. The only thing, apparently, for which she takes pride in America. I suppose if Obama does not get elected, then she goes back to no pride, just a bitter, angry, and rich lawyer and wife of a rich US Senator. 

It's interesting how people view things. I look at the McCain family history of military service with admiration, while you look at it with contempt. I think our opposing views fairly represent one of the differences between the left and right political spectrum.

Edit: One more thing. Kids: You're never going to be proud of everything they do! That doesn't mean you can't be proud of your kids.


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

*I'm proud that America disapproves of Bush's performance.*

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and _if wrong, to be set right_." - Carl Shurz

Bush took something right and set it wrong, and McCain offers little hope of changing course.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Oh, so it's quote throwdown time? Ok, but I'll only play one round, though. Here it is.

I'm sharing one of my favorite Sam Johnson quotes with you:

"Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm still waiting for a good reason.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

chatsworth osborne jr. said:


> "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and _if wrong, to be set right_." - Carl Shurz
> 
> Bush took something right and set it wrong, and McCain offers little hope of changing course.
> 
> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson.


I'm always amused when some try to pass on witty "quotes" as sage wisdom or the underpinning of some over arching political philosophy.

I will attempt to paraphrase Samuel Johnson: "Rebuttals in the form of second hand quotes is the last refuge of a scoundrel."


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> I'm still waiting for a good reason.


peirpont,

McCain's "good" reason for fighting for his country? Do you question every veteran's reason for fighting for his country? If you don't like a particular reason, does that invalidate his service and what he accomplished? If he has several reasons do you have to approve of them all?

What they may say notwithstanding, can you ever really know a man's true thinking? Not really. Therefore, judge a man by his actions. That's the best measure of a man. McCain's action make him a hero or they don't. What he was thinking at the time is unknowable and irrelevant unless one is on a witch hunt.

As to speculating on McCain's reasons, my guess is he fought out of a sense of duty to his country. If another man wants of suggest some nefarious reason let them have at it. It doesn't diminish his accomplishment or sacrifice in the least.


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

Relayer said:


> It doesn't diminish his accomplishment or sacrifice in the least.


Not to belittle, but McCain's own book states that he knew his . Sacrifice, yes. Accomplishment, dubious.

Also, thanks for summing up the "you ever really know a [wo]man's true thinking" thing as it saves me the trouble of saying the same about Michelle Obama's patriotism.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

McCain is a "war criminal," and Michelle Obama is a true American patriot. Thanks for the insight into your thought process.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

chatsworth osborne jr. said:


> Not to belittle, but McCain's own book states that he knew his . Sacrifice, yes. Accomplishment, dubious.
> 
> Also, thanks for summing up the "you ever really know a [wo]man's true thinking" thing as it saves me the trouble of saying the same about Michelle Obama's patriotism.


Just to keep things on the up and up, the issue from the beginning was Michelle's lack of pride in America, not her patriotism. Prior to PT's response about that above, *you *are the only one to keep mentioning patriotism.

Now, maybe you are right and Michelle has been proud of her country at least once, maybe twice during her adult years, despite her claims. Maybe, she just can't bring herself to admit it.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Oh, and McCain's "dubious" accomplishments?

Graduated, United States Naval Academy, Annapolis, Md. 1958
National War College, Washington, D.C. 1973
Pilot, United States Navy 1958-1981
Prisoner of war in Vietnam 1967-1973 
- while a POW subjected to torture, refused an out-of-sequence early release offer
Received numerous awards
- Silver Star
- Legion of Merit
- Purple Heart
- Distinguished Flying Cross

If these are what you consider "dubious', then that is very sad indeed.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Being a prisoner of war is an "accomplishment?" If so there are a lot of very accomplished people down in Guantanamo Bay.

And for what it is worth in the diction department, the Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross are decorations and/or commendations not awards, although one is awarded them.

--A.Q.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Quay said:


> Being a prisoner of war is an "accomplishment?" If so there are a lot of very accomplished people down in Guantanamo Bay.
> 
> And for what it is worth in the diction department, the Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross are decorations and/or commendations not awards, although one is awarded them.
> 
> --A.Q.


Yes, I think McCain's surviving terrible wounds and torture while a POW, and, in spite of it all, refusing an early release, is certainly an accomplishment. If you wish to equate McCain with the prisoners at Gitmo, well, that's your prerogative.

Sorry, you are not correct WRT to the use of the word 'awards'. My wording comes as specifically stated in the online Biographical Directory of the United States Congress. Also, if you refer to SECNAVINST 1650.1G, NAVY AND MARINE CORPS AWARDS MANUAL, (Department of the Navy), you will see that, in addition to the title, it refers to decorations, medals, etc., as 'awards'.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

An accomplishment is something planned or undertaken that has been achieved successfully, implying at least a minimal choice or assent in doing so. I don't think Senator McCain strove to be a P.O.W. but rather found the situation forced upon him. His survival was an achievement not an accomplishment. 

As for diction, believing everything you read, especially if it has an "official" seal or source, is certainly your prerogative. Goodness knows The Government Is Never Wrong.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Quay said:


> As for diction, believing everything you read, especially if it has an "official" seal or source, is certainly your prerogative. Goodness knows The Government Is Never Wrong.
> 
> Cordially,
> A.Q.


If the US Navy chooses to call *their *Distinguished Flying Cross (et al) an award, then, yes, I guess I'll have to go with them. If you cannot accept being wrong that's your prerogative.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Relayer said:


> If the US Navy chooses to call *their *Distinguished Flying Cross (et al) an award, then, yes, I guess I'll have to go with them. If you cannot accept being wrong that's your prerogative.


What an official black and white view. It must serve you well.

In regards to your specious grace, to those that know me at all, they're well aware I have no trouble accepting being wrong especially as I often am. But this pales and quakes in comparison to your promiscuous desire to be right and Right.

Neither matters much, though, as we're all food for worms.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Let's at least honest in our disagreement. Clearly, you have at least an equal desire to be right, as evidenced by your initial correction to diction in my post, and continuing, even now to the point of resorting to insults. 

In all seriousness, though... for my part, I've offered evidence for my usage of the term 'award'. Other than the fact that this evidence carries an "official seal", is there some substantive reason you refuse to accept the terminology in the Navy's own awards manual? Why is it wrong? Is there something other than 'because you think it so"?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Quay said:


> Being a prisoner of war is an "accomplishment?" If so there are a lot of very accomplished people down in Guantanamo Bay.
> 
> And for what it is worth in the diction department, the Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross are decorations and/or commendations not awards, although one is awarded them.
> 
> --A.Q.


Ouay; You strike me as one who comfortably sits in (self appointed) judgement of all others but, is loathe to really stick their neck out for anyone or anything. It must get very lonely up there, on your pedestal?


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Ouay; You strike me as one who comfortably sits in (self appointed) judgement of all others but, is loathe to really stick their neck out for anyone or anything. It must get very lonely up there, on your pedestal?


Well, one thing is clear, you've certainly been stricken.  Too bad it all comes from your own fantasies about another man. To each his own I suppose.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

That was spectacularly nasty. I have met Eagle and seriously doubt he entertains any fantasies of the sort.

On your part, that's a pretty homophobic post to make.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> That was spectacularly nasty. I have met Eagle and seriously doubt he entertains any fantasies of the sort.
> 
> On your part, that's a pretty homophobic post to make.


The word fantasy means "_the faculty or activity of imagining things, esp. things that are impossible or improbable._" In this case, it is Mr. Eagle that has imagined things about me that squat far from the reality. He claimed to have received a "strike" about my character so I punned on that and called him stricken. In your case, it is you who has quickly assumed and introduced sexuality into the discussion and concluded that it must be "nasty." Tsk. Some might call both things quite telling about each of your, but I certainly would not. There simply isn't enough to go on.

As for alleged homophobia, that is impossibly funny. Two of my colleagues who have just read this part of the thread are having a hard time keeping themselves from collapsing with laughter. :biggrin2:

As a famous movie character once said to the similarly serious: "You need to lighten up!"

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

You might do the same.

That's the last I'll post about this. Enjoy your little troll fantasies to the fullest.

Gee, you're a brave soul and can type nasty things on the internet. How powerful!


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Forsberg,

You usually seem like a decent gentleman and I do thank you for the reminder to remain light, especially here. Unfortunately your further statements tarnish your regular contributions.

As for the rest of this silliness that has gone to serious seed so seemingly soon, a character has said it best:

"If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber'd here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream...."

--_Act 5, Scene 1. William Shakespeare's __A Midsummer Night's Dream

_Cordially and also finished here,
A.Q.


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## XdryMartini (Jan 5, 2008)

DoD 1348.33-M
*MANUAL OF MILITARY*
*DECORATIONS & AWARDS*

C3.1.1. Military decorations are awarded in recognition of individual heroism, meritorious achievement, or meritorious service. In the United States, the tradition of military decorations can be traced back to the American Revolution. 

The above is an excerpt. If I understand the dialogue above, the contention is if being a POW is an "acheivement or an accomplishment."

Acheivement or accomplishment, probably not, but perhaps heroic?

I guess the answer revolves around whether you believe his bearing and actions while a POW were heroic. 

Definitions of heroic from dictionary.com:

3.having or displaying the character or attributes of a hero; extraordinarily bold, altruistic, determined. 
4.having or involving recourse to boldness, daring, or extreme measures: Heroic measures were taken to save his life. 

So, by refusing an out of rotation "parolle" which was offered because of his family connections, were his actions heroic? Good question and probably a more focused direction to take.

If you have never been in combat, captured and held against your will, forcibly separated from your family, children, and friends, I think you are only guessing if his actions are heroic. I've been in combat many times and have served with people that have been POW's and I have my own opinions. I just wanted to put things in the right context for the antagonists above and add the "heroic" part for them to chew on. :icon_smile_wink:

Someone asked it the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay are heros. Their countrymen probably think so.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I have no problems with attacks on John McCains political positions. There is nothing unseemly or unpatriotic about that. 

Having said that, some of these comments about his patriotism and love of country are unsettling. John McCain served his country and freely went into harms way for her at a time when far too many took a path of much less resistance. That alone should make even his most ardent political detractors still take a moment to recognize his unwavering sense of duty.

Many are not aware that McCain had volunteered for the tour of duty in Vietnam that resulted in his becoming a prisoner of war. It should be noted that he did not do so in the absence of a full understanding of the risks. 

During a previous deployment to Vietnam (a deployment that lasted all of one day) he sustained multiple shrapnel wounds in the horrific fire on the U.S.S. Forrestal that claimed 134 lives. At one point the injured McCain stood over a sailor from his squadron and spoke with the young man as he died.

Following this tragedy McCain was sent out of the combat zone; however, his sense of duty led him to volunteer to return to Vietnam on another ship. Less than three months later he was shot down and captured. His courage and devotion to duty during his time in captivity when he was subjected to near unbearable pain and suffering should never be questioned; however, I'm aware that in a society such as ours those who live free because of men like John McCain have the freedom to do just that.

If you don't like the man's politics, don't vote for him. Speak out against his positions and seek his defeat in the election. John McCain doesn't deserve to be President because of his military service. But he does deserve the respect of all Americans regardless of political party. He is an American hero.

Cruiser


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

You'll never hear me attack McCain's war record. His refusal of early release was truly heroic.

As the person who inserted McCain into this thread, however, I will point out that Michelle Obama's statement of when she was first proud of the United States is precisely equivalent to McCain's statement of when he first started loving the United States. If you believe that McCain's statement is irrelevant to the election, Obama's statement is no less so.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> I have no problems with attacks on John McCains political positions. There is nothing unseemly or unpatriotic about that.
> 
> Having said that, some of these comments about his patriotism and love of country are unsettling. John McCain served his country and freely went into harms way for her at a time when far too many took a path of much less resistance. That alone should make even his most ardent political detractors still take a moment to recognize his unwavering sense of duty.
> 
> ...


+1...and Cruiser, you said it far more eloquently than I could have done!

Quay: My disagreement with your post focused primarily with your putting John McCain's service in the same category as our "Guantanamo guests. John McCain is a hero. The prisoners at Guantanamo are terrorists. John McCain and his fellow American airmen, flew their strike missions IAW rules of engagement that frequently increased the hazards to themselves, so as to minimize potential collateral damage (civilian casualties). The terrorists housed at Guantanamo, indiscriminately struck targets, frequently seeking to maximize civilian casualties, so as to increase the emotional toll and maximize media attention. To my mind, putting John McCain in the same category with those animals is an insult to every American citizen.

Jack: As you sometimes seem to do, you took McCain's comment out of context. He never said He didn't love or wasn't proud of America. The substance of his comments was that he gained a real appreciation for this Country and her values/beliefs, when he found himself involuntarily separated from those freedoms! While his words may have been similar to Michelle Obama's, his intent was clearly different!

In response to Quay's reaction to "Forsberg": During the time I have spent in these fora, I have seen no other member more willing to come to the defense of those other members, he senses to have been unfairly 'cyber-slapped' and, to my mind, that seems an honorable character trait. He is a man who lives his convictions and...he is a friend!


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

*sigh* I really wish people would care to read more closely. Such as it is though.



eagle2250 said:


> Quay: My disagreement with your post focused primarily with your putting John McCain's service in the same category as our "Guantanamo guests.


That is not what I did. If that was your reading then you must have mixed up another poster's comments or simply read into them things not evident. As a matter of diction I was pointing out that using the word "accomplishment" to describe being a POW would then apply similarly to those detained in Guantanamo Bay. Obviously the circumstances in which one becomes a POW make a night and day difference. As Cruiser and Mr. Martini have pointed out, the better word for McCain would be hero or one who is heroic. Getting captured in a war is not an accomplishment: in McCain's case it was a possible consequence of war he suffered and made into many years of heroism and by all accounts acquitted himself as valiantly as a man is capable of. McCain's service record during Vietnam makes him a genuine American hero and to suggest otherwise is absurd. Obviously the prisoners down in Cuba are an entirely different matter.



> In response to Quay's reaction to "Forsberg": During the time I have spent in these fora, I have seen no other member more willing to come to the defense of those other members, he senses to have been unfairly 'cyber-slapped' and, to my mind, that seems an honorable character trait. He is a man who lives his convictions and...he is a friend!


The first sentence is too squishy to know when you're referring to Forsberg or me but based on what little I know of you I'd hazard in the second sentence that you consider Forsberg as your friend.

The situation is pretty simple. Mr. Forsberg jumped into an unfamiliar spot and even though apparently with good intent made foolish remarks. Then he did it again, apparently in the heat of emotion. It is unfortunate but it happened and I hold nothing against him. Someone charging in perceived defense sometimes run over unintended things. I am sorry he took something so far out of context that he vexed himself but much of the fault must be mine as my expectations were set inappropriately.

For my part I offer my sincere apology to Messrs. Forsberg and Eagle for anything I have done that may have provided reason for offense, confusion or vexation. Many on this board don't care to read closely: I have the opposite affliction and often read too closely, assuming (deadly word!) that others will hold the same attention as I do to words and possible turns on meaning. If I participate in this forum again I promise to hold myself to the general standards at hand and not attempt any diversions unless I make myself perfectly clear to everyone. It is my responsibility to offer my own words in a way comprehensible to readers. In that way I hope to do my part in making this a place for civil discussion.

And now a confession. I've grown fond of reading what people write here because it often gives me cause to think about things and challenge my own assumptions about many things. Those who hold ideas that seem far removed from mine remind me to take nothing for granted, to constantly see if my own mind is as sharp as I'd like it. The fact that this can all happen in a place called _Ask Andy About Clothes_ is a remarkable thing to me. A place where men come to have detailed talks about clothing has a "lounge" where it is possible to become a better man by engaging a diverse group of people? Wonderful! I'd not have thought to look in such a place. I think I am glad I did.

In closing, I thank the members who have written to me about all this and apologize for any delays in replying. I am off this morning on an unexpected trip to attend to someone gravely ill and may be some time in returning.

Cordially to one and all,
A.Q.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm sorry to hear about your friend who is gravely ill. I hope he/she has a chance of recovering and if not, that his/her final days will be as pleasant as possible. This probably has to be really hard on you.

Your friend is lucky to have someone like you on his/her side. It's truly a credit to you that you are willing to make yourself available to your friend at this time.

I'll stand by what I posted, but concede I may not have understood everything.


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## XdryMartini (Jan 5, 2008)

Quay said:


> And now a confession. I've grown fond of reading what people write here because it often gives me cause to think about things and challenge my own assumptions about many things. Those who hold ideas that seem far removed from mine remind me to take nothing for granted, to constantly see if my own mind is as sharp as I'd like it. The fact that this can all happen in a place called _Ask Andy About Clothes_ is a remarkable thing to me. A place where men come to have detailed talks about clothing has a "lounge" where it is possible to become a better man by engaging a diverse group of people? Wonderful! I'd not have thought to look in such a place. I think I am glad I did.
> 
> A.Q.


A.Q. 
Sir, VERY few I have met in life could have stated it better!! It's a good day when I listen to someone, or in this case read something that makes me contemplate my values, beliefs and assumptions about the world around me. :icon_cheers:


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> I have no problems with attacks on John McCains political positions. There is nothing unseemly or unpatriotic about that.
> 
> Having said that, some of these comments about his patriotism and love of country are unsettling. John McCain served his country and freely went into harms way for her at a time when far too many took a path of much less resistance. That alone should make even his most ardent political detractors still take a moment to recognize his unwavering sense of duty.
> 
> ...


5 star posting.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Quite right, Asterix. It was a excellent post.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> You'll never hear me attack McCain's war record. His refusal of early release was truly heroic.
> 
> As the person who inserted McCain into this thread, however, I will point out that Michelle Obama's statement of when she was first proud of the United States is precisely equivalent to McCain's statement of when he first started loving the United States. If you believe that McCain's statement is irrelevant to the election, Obama's statement is no less so.


Jack, 
To love and to be proud are two different things. At the risk of psychoanalyzing McCain I would guess that he was both proud and loved his country before his ordeal, but during his captivity he was able to reflect and deepen his love for country. Much like a journey of discovery when one starts out with an abstract concept of self identity and then upon completion have a deeper and more mature outlook.

Mrs. Obama on the other hand spoke of pride. Was this a pride born out of some personal trial where her very existence was on the line? No. This is a pride born out of selfishness. One that ignores past achievements of this country and its people and rather focuses on her narrow experience and the events of the past 2 years when her husband began running for office. Her notion of pride of country boils down to her experience and the conditions are defined by her. I wonder if he had lost the primary if she would still have been proud.


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## Trapper Lake (Jun 19, 2007)

Wow, i never knew McCain supporters existed. I've heard there are still pro-Bush people scattered around the country, but McCain supporters? I'll believe it when I see them in the flesh. 

Oh well, they are all liars. Neocon big statist or lib big statist...what a choice.

VOTE BOB BARR (wishing Ron Paul was on the ballot)


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Sure, you're right, of course.

All you need to do is to assume the most favorable and positive interpretation of everything McCain says, and the most negative interpretation of everything that Obama and his supporters say.


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