# Summer CCW



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Since this is a clothing forum, let's avoid futile arguments about calibers, models, actions, brands, etc., and focus on what you carry and how you dress to deal with the lump. For me, at 5'7" with an athletic build, the choice is a little Glock or SW J-frame in an iwb thumb break behind the right hip if I am wearing any garment that covers my belt line. An extra mag or a couple of speed strips go in a nicely-labeled flashlight holster on the left side. With a tucked polo, I carry an NAA Black Widow, whose sights and grip I have modified, in a skeleton pocket holster I made for my right front pocket. Most of my chinos will accommodate it. Ankle holsters are bothersome if one wants the option to kick or run away. Both have worked for me. Also, they don't fit some leg openings. Belly bands are constricting on me, but others might like them. Fortunately, the places I most often carry a pistol are big cities where I also carry a briefcase with a big Glock or sometimes a 1911. I would be delighted to hear if anyone likes fanny packs or those little purse-type things that put tiny semiautos on the belt.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Summer is tough. I generally go with a Rohrbaugh in a front pocket holster. IWB holsters conceal best, but I find them uncomfortable. Ankle holsters, belly bands, fanny packs are a no go for me. If I'm going to carry a 1911, it's in a Milt Sparks OWB.


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## Olifter (Jun 9, 2012)

Ruger LCR, pleated pants, front pocket.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Kahr PM9 in a Desantis Nemesis Pocket Holster. Smaller than some wallets. Front pocket. Back pocket. Inside jacket pocket. I've carried it around people and no one has ever asked what I had in my pocket. Probably just assumed it was a flashlight...


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

FWIW and although I've not carried in years, I've still got the fanny pack holster in which I carried my Sig 226 during the summer months of earlier years. However, combined with my aviator glasses, conservative clothing choices, a closely cropped head of hair and a reasonably athletic build, I doubt anyone was confused as to what the content of that fanny pack was!


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> FWIW and although I've not carried in years, I've still got the fanny pack holster in which I carried my Sig 226 during the summer months of earlier years. However, combined with my aviator glasses, conservative clothing choices, a closely cropped head of hair and a reasonably athletic build, I doubt anyone was confused as to what the content of that fanny pack was!


You would be surprised. Very few people have a clue that the guy in the photographer's vest is packing.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

KelTec P-series with a belt clip.










Can even look like a pocket knife


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> FWIW and although I've not carried in years, I've still got the fanny pack holster in which I carried my Sig 226 during the summer months of earlier years. However, combined with my aviator glasses, conservative clothing choices, a closely cropped head of hair and a reasonably athletic build, I doubt anyone was confused as to what the content of that fanny pack was!


Is this when you were wearing something other than a suit?


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Stout blackthorn walking stick and a Lone Wolf Defender built on the Paul squeeze-to-open system.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Oldsarge said:


> Stout blackthorn walking stick and a Lone Wolf Defender built on the Paul squeeze-to-open system.


I hoped you would post on this thread, but I expected a report of how you could conceal a 1911 that followed you home from active duty. The YouTube video of the Paul Defender is a little scary for somebody who thinks a KaBar and a Randall #2 are maybe just a bit too small.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Well, I live in SoCal and the local polizei believe that no civilian "needs" to carry a concealed firearm. However, may I suggest that if the blackthorn is in the right hand and the Paul Defender is in the left as a _main gauche_, your opponent is either in big trouble ('cause he's too stoopid to realize just how much trouble he's in) or giving much thought to just slowly backing away . . .


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I usually carry barely concealed lethal charm and wit. If that fails, I fall back on withering sarcasm.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Is this when you were wearing something other than a suit?


A suit or a loosely fitting windbreaker to cover things up? Indeed it was my friend! Hope all is well with you...how goes the music?


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## alphadelta (Oct 2, 2007)

My lightweight Colt Commander is not a summer gun; my Phoenix HP22A is. I have a thin small-of-the-back holster (forget the brand) and 2" nylon webbing belt. I wear it inside trousers and a short sleeve summer shirt tucked in the pants. Very difficult to detect. Not as easy to draw, but there are always trade offs. Tilton -- are those braces and a belt? Anyone use a shoulder holster?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Certainly, that is not a picture of me, but I believe the technical term is "work wear suspenders." 

With a shoulder holster you need to have a jacket on. My father worked for the Treasury abroad (mostly in South America) for several years and carried with a shoulder holster. He suggested I never consider it because, unless you are some sort of enforcement officer, you can't take your jacket off without scaring people and any amount one may perspire in the armpits will be transferred to the shirt instead of having some space to air out. By "summer ccw" I took it to be "what do I carry and where do I carry it when I'm wearing shorts and a polo shirt."


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Shoulder rigs also seem to have fallen out of favor in part because they pretty much require sweeping people with the muzzle all the time, and then both others and your own weakside arm during the draw. Combined with the decline of jacket-wearing, they're becoming more and more of a niche item.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Having no idea what CCW was, until a few minutes ago, I started reading this thread, and first of all thought it was a pisstake.
But you guys are serious?
This is all very alien to those of us in Europe.
And BTW, I did live in the US for 10 years.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Odradek said:


> Having no idea what CCW was, until a few minutes ago, I started reading this thread, and first of all thought it was a pisstake.
> But you guys are serious?
> This is all very alien to those of us in Europe.
> And BTW, I did live in the US for 10 years.


There are genuine issues of attire that affect many of us who are legally armed, and I hope this thread will not drift into politics. I doubt the moderators would allow it, and other men here may have comments on the central topic.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

godan said:


> There are genuine issues of attire that affect many of us who are legally armed, and I hope this thread will not drift into politics. I doubt the moderators would allow it, and other men here may have comments on the central topic.


Not trying to drag politics into anything, just remarking on the strangeness of all this, from someone living in rural Oxfordshire.
Carry on.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Summer (i.e no jacket) concealment in uniform or plain clothes for the Met police in my day was also a holster in front trouser pocket.


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## ipse dixit (Apr 11, 2012)

I find I can carry a full sized pistol (usually A Glock 17 but sometimes a full-sized 1911) in a good quality IWB holster, using either a jacket or untucked shirt as a cover garment. As a caveat, I am 6'4" and 230 pounds, so it may be a matter of scale. A polo shirt works fine, but a Hawaian shirt is fabulous. I like IWB holsters from Milt Sparks, Mitch Rosen, or Kramer.

Since I wear a coat and tie 6 days a week, that sort of carry works fine until I want to take my coat off around the office. When I want to be really low key I will pocket carry either a S&W 442 or a Ruger LCP in a Mitch Rosen pocket holster.

ETA: if you are concluding from this post that I have more handguns than the average person, you might be correct. :icon_smile_big:


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Ipse: I think you are right that it is a matter of scale - height and weight certainly, but also waist diameter, body composition and weight distribution. I have been making custom holsters for about thirty years - mostly horsehide thumbreak iwb's. A G17 or 1911 at the best possible height and angle on my body will still be too big. It will feel wrong and the clothing won't cover it. Another person, the same height but built differently can carry a larger gun with no problem. Similarly, torso length, the thickness of thighs and trouser size affect what can be carried in a front pocket. I use adjustable try holsters for common models - SW revolvers, Glocks and 1911's - and take the individual to the range with the intended CCW pistol to draw and fire live rounds, wearing typical clothing. Often, we learn things that cannot be discovered over a gunshop counter. The the resulting position and angle - sometimes even the choice of a pistol - can be much different from the starting point.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I have toyed with the thought of getting one of the wallet-looking holsters. Seems sort of practical and I could sit on my pistol without discomfort. Anyone own one?










Those of us who have personally had or know someone who has had experiences with the criminal fringe of society, regularly commute or live in high-crime areas, or find ourselves dealing with the sullied underside of civilized life do sometimes carry firearms for protection and they do sometimes provide significant wardrobe issues.

ipse: how does the IWB work when you're sitting down? Does it lay out on top of your thigh? Or are we talking an IWB that goes in the small of your back?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

There is no way in hell I would use a pocket holster that left the trigger exposed, Tilton.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Odradek said:


> Not trying to drag politics into anything, just remarking on the strangeness of all this, from someone living in rural Oxfordshire.
> Carry on.


Understood on the strangeness to you. This is also a large part of the reason why we are no longer subjects of Her Majesty.



CuffDaddy said:


> There is no way in hell I would use a pocket holster that left the trigger exposed, Tilton.


A HUGE +1 to that. In fact, as a close friend and I swap weapons regularly, this was his #1 reason for spending months searching for an IWB for his Ruger LCP. Usually, we both would just slide it in a pocket, but for safety, we would never chamber a round (and we're both big on keeping one in there). With the IWB, not only can one be chambered (and have an additional round), the IWB he chose also holds another clip.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Understood on the strangeness to you. This is also a large part of the reason why we are no longer subjects of Her Majesty.
> 
> A HUGE +1 to that. In fact, as a close friend and I swap weapons regularly, this was his #1 reason for spending months searching for an IWB for his Ruger LCP. Usually, we both would just slide it in a pocket, but for safety, we would never chamber a round (and we're both big on keeping one in there). With the IWB, not only can one be chambered (and have an additional round), the IWB he chose also holds another clip.


Oh, and that said, during the summer, I'm still either in suit and tie (never removing my jacket), or jeans and a t-shirt (untucked, so IWB or pocket works), or trousers and short sleeve shirt (untucked, IWB works).


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> A HUGE +1 to that. In fact, as a close friend and I swap weapons regularly, this was his #1 reason for spending months searching for an IWB for his Ruger LCP. Usually, we both would just slide it in a pocket, but for safety, we would never chamber a round (and we're both big on keeping one in there). With the IWB, not only can one be chambered (and have an additional round), the IWB he chose also holds another clip.


Makes sense to me. Not to get too far afield, but I always want to make sure that I've got to make more than a single mistake before the gun goes bang.


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## dba (Oct 22, 2010)

Depends on how I feel. If I anticipate a gunfight in an elevator, I carry a Walther PPK/S in a small of the back holster under a polo or a Hawaiian shirt. If I'm feeling a little more anxious, it's an HK USP in the same type of holster.


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## ipse dixit (Apr 11, 2012)

Tilton said:


> ipse: how does the IWB work when you're sitting down? Does it lay out on top of your thigh? Or are we talking an IWB that goes in the small of your back?


I carry IWB at about the 4:00 position (assuming your belt buckle is 12:00). I find it far more comfortable than OWB carry because the pistol is held in tight to your body and the weight rides on your hip and belt. The key is a god quality holster made for the exact gun you are using and a sturdy belt designed for carrying a gun. If properly set up, it will be rock solid. The only time IWB carry is the least big uncomfortable is if you are riding in a sports car with wrap-around seats. I used to have a BMW 335i with the sport package, and it was less than ideal for this purpose. I should also add that I wear my trousers at my waist.

For a nice rig that you won't have to wait on (assuming Brownells stocks it for your gun) try this:

https://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9922/Product/SEMI-AUTO-SUMMER-SPECIAL-2


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> This is also a large part of the reason why we are no longer subjects of Her Majesty. .


That's not even close to being true, at least not if you are referring to the events of the 1770s.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Correct. British subjects had no problems with firearm ownership (provided they could afford them!) until post WWI. The politics of the era became a bit strained what with the October Putsch of 1917 and all . . .


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

dba said:


> Depends on how I feel. If I anticipate a gunfight in an elevator, I carry a Walther PPK/S in a small of the back holster under a polo or a Hawaiian shirt. If I'm feeling a little more anxious, it's an HK USP in the same type of holster.
> 
> View attachment 4515
> 
> ...


Do you mind saying how big you are? I can understand a PPK in an sob holster, but that USP/holster combination looks awfully big to be carried in that location comfortably...and covered by anything smaller than a poncho.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

godan said:


> Do you mind saying how big you are? I can understand a PPK in an sob holster, but that USP/holster combination looks awfully big to be carried in that location comfortably...and covered by anything smaller than a poncho.


I'm 6'2 250 and I *almost* have a hard time concealing my USP-compact. I know I'd have a heck of a time hiding a big fat double stack like a full size USP or Beretta.


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## dba (Oct 22, 2010)

godan said:


> Do you mind saying how big you are? I can understand a PPK in an sob holster, but that USP/holster combination looks awfully big to be carried in that location comfortably...and covered by anything smaller than a poncho.


I'm 5'11 / 200. I'm so used to wearing the pistol there, I don't even notice. I carried off duty and UC there for 20 years. If I'm driving I'll sometimes take it out of the holster and place it under my leg so it doesn't move to far in case of a catastrophic evasive action. Prior to leaving the car I put it back in the holster. At the movies or someplace like that, it doesn't bother me.

The USP is a big gun. When I'm carrying that, I usually have a t-shirt tucked in so the gun doesn't rub on skin and then I wear a loose fitting polo or an unbuttoned Hawaiian shirt to cover up.

My wife (also a police officer) says I still look and walk like a cop. All the better. I'm not usually bothered by street urchins.


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## ipse dixit (Apr 11, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> That's not even close to being true, at least not if you are referring to the events of the 1770s.


Remind me again, what were the English soldiers on their way to do when the skirmish at Lexington green occurred (i.e. the source of the "shot heard round the world")?


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

dba said:


> I'm 5'11 / 200. I'm so used to wearing the pistol there, I don't even notice. I carried off duty and UC there for 20 years. If I'm driving I'll sometimes take it out of the holster and place it under my leg so it doesn't move to far in case of a catastrophic evasive action. Prior to leaving the car I put it back in the holster. At the movies or someplace like that, it doesn't bother me.
> 
> The USP is a big gun. When I'm carrying that, I usually have a t-shirt tucked in so the gun doesn't rub on skin and then I wear a loose fitting polo or an unbuttoned Hawaiian shirt to cover up.
> 
> My wife (also a police officer) says I still look and walk like a cop. All the better. I'm not usually bothered by street urchins.


No question that you are being accurate, but I am nonetheless amazed that even a guy as big as you could adjust, over years, to a lump the size of the USP. Of course, some of us became accustomed to packs and rifles over three or four years. You probably looked at my post above about how subtle holster fit can be, but the sheer physics of your situation are unique in my experience. You also raise the issue of rubbing on your skin, but nobody has mentioned holsters/guns wearing on fabric, especially suit jacket linings. I had some reservations about starting this thread, but posts by serious people with real experience have been interesting and gratifying. Thanks.


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## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

Surely there are better places for this conversation than a clothing forum. If you need to continue this conversation, I would respectfully ask you to consider doing so in one of those venues.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

PMRuby said:


> Surely there are better places for this conversation than a clothing forum. If you need to continue this conversation, I would respectfully ask you to consider doing so in one of those venues.


For some of these posters this could be a life-or-death consideration. They carry as part of their job. Then there are people like me that sometimes carry a weapon because I never know when the 6'4" paranoid schizophrenic (that promised to kill me after I helped commit him after he attacked his sister with a hatchet) will be out of jail/institution and off his medication.

I'm happy to see this discussed and grateful for what I've learned in previous threads.


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## dba (Oct 22, 2010)

godan said:


> You also raise the issue of rubbing on your skin, but nobody has mentioned holsters/guns wearing on fabric, especially suit jacket linings.


Funny you should mention suit jacket linings. When I had to be at my desk as a respectable detective (as opposed to doing UC work) I wore a suit or a sport coat. I tried a shoulder rig to hopefully prevent wear along the inside body of the jacket to no avail. I decided that unless I was actually going to visit with a victim or see a judge for a warrant, I kept my coat off. If I had to go out for anything else, I'd just put a 5.11 vest on to conceal the weapon. It worked fine and I got no grief from my supervisors.


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## johnnylaw (Feb 22, 2012)

If I'm wearing pants, I'm carrying a gun, so this is in my lane. I run a Glock 19 AIWB in one of the following rigs: Dale Fricke Arch Angel, Keepers Concealment "the keeper", Milt Sparks summer special, or if I need to tuck, the RCS Vanguard 2. If I can't carry a gun, ie in a tux, I go with a S&W 342pd (38cal) in a Galco ankle holster. 
Btw I am 6'4" 190# athletic build and have NO problem concealing the gun even under slim fitting t-shirts, polos, OCBDs or tucked dress shirts. I could post some pics if anyone thinks it will help them.


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## alphadelta (Oct 2, 2007)

It depends upon what your consider "summer wear." If you wear a t-shirt inside your trousers and a long shirt un-tucked over your belt line, any holster will be covered. A .45 1911 will go virtually undetected unless you bend over to tie your shoes. If you mean a short sleeve shirt tucked in your pants, the options are limited. As mentioned in my previous post, a SOB holster with a 2" nylon webbing "belt" worn under the shirt is very hard to detect (and not so easy to draw). It's a trade off between concealment and access.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

To me, nothing says "I'm packing" like a guy in black leather New Balance walking/cross trainer shoes, white socks, shorts or Lee jeans, Hawaiian shirt, and sunglasses.


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## thunderw21 (Sep 21, 2008)

In the summer I like to wear linen shirts (with or without an undershirt, depending upon the weather) with an XD9 subcompact in a DeSantis IWB holster at roughly the 8 o'clock position since I'm a lefty. The photos below demonstrate how concealable it is. They also show the extended mag in the gun though in the summer I usually only use the regular magazine that is flush with the grip and keep the extended for a reload if needed. A well-draped linen shirt will easily conceal a double stack gun like the XD.



















With a suit or for deep concealment I usually carry a Taurus .380, often in the jacket's inside pocket. There it is handy, quick to get to, well concealed and well retained, though I don't always like how it breaks up the lines of the jacket: the price you pay to conceal.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

ipse dixit said:


> Remind me again, what were the English soldiers on their way to do when the skirmish at Lexington green occurred (i.e. the source of the "shot heard round the world")?


The conflict was not about gun rights, even if the immediate objective of the troops sent to Lexington was to seize arms.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

*Linen shirts*

Thunderw21: Those are valuable photos. I sometimes cover an IWB with an untucked shirt, but had not been aware of the useful qualities of linen. I'll buy one soonest and see how it hides my Glock. Thanks for the very informative post.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

On the few occasions when I can carry (when I travel to PA, or some other free state with FL reciprocity), I carry a Colt Commander in a Crossbreed Supertuck holster. It's comfortable, has minimal printing (with the right gun and/or modifications) and you can tuck in your shirt. The only issue is that belt choices are severely limited. Wearing a 1" strap on an engine turned buckle would be laughable. For that reason, I've been considering carrying something smaller in a pocket holster.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

For concealed carry in summer attire, I think the small gun/front pocket holster is the way to go. The notion that fanny packs or photojournalists' vests are ploys known to but few people these days seems a bit optimistic. Here in SoCal, a friend of mine got busted hard when a security guard had misgivings about the contents of his fanny pack. Another fellow, a gun writer of some renown who has frequently dispensed counsel on concealed carry, told me of an incident where some teen-agers saucily greeted him with "Hello, officer!" as he strode through a shopping mall in his photojournalist's vest that was concealing some formidable sidearm. I have sometimes written that if I should take up armed robbery as a late-in-life career change, I would ruthlessly gun down anyone wearing a black fanny pack or a photojournalist's vest who arrived on the scene while I was "pulling a job." Someone wearing a photojournalist's vest in 105-degree heat is going to look conspicuous. Fanny packs may have virtues for light day hikes. In the city, they should get you busted by the fashion police, and in my neck of the woods they will probably get you busted by the real police!

I suspect every cop in the America uses the untucked shirt as a concealment ploy. I think the aloha shirt or guyabera (sp.?) is marginally more elegant for this purpose, but I don't care for them. 

FWIW, I loathe IWB for anything but a very small, slender pistol. With any kind of serious sidearm, they make you look as if you have gained 20 pounds, and at least for me, they are uncomfortable. One IWB variant I do rather like is the Barami Hip-Grip device for J-frame Smiths and similar revolvers.

Just a few thoughts.


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## Cherokeepilot (Apr 20, 2010)

*Summer carry and others*

Summer carry and many other times is the Nano in leather holster in front pocket.

If there is business in one of the rougher areas, a carry shirt over pants such as the magnet button shirts with a regular sized pistol. _ _


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## el caballero (Jan 23, 2011)

Odradek said:


> Having no idea what CCW was, until a few minutes ago, I started reading this thread, and first of all thought it was a pisstake.
> But you guys are serious?
> This is all very alien to those of us in Europe.
> And BTW, I did live in the US for 10 years.


That makes 2 of us. I clicked on this expecting to discover CCW was some sartorial term I had never encountered. As an East Coaster (where most major cities do not permit concealed carry), I have to say I am a bit worried by the idea of all these guns parading around every day.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

el caballero said:


> That makes 2 of us. I clicked on this expecting to discover CCW was some sartorial term I had never encountered. As an East Coaster (where most major cities do not permit concealed carry), I have to say I am a bit worried by the idea of all these guns parading around every day.


Please look at post #18, above.


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## el caballero (Jan 23, 2011)

godan said:


> Please look at post #18, above.


No need to be so touchy (or snarky, for that matter). I saw that post, and should you lower your sensitivities you will see that at no point did I make any political commentary or judgments as to anyone's decision to carry. I simply noted that I was surprised to learn how many people actually seem to carry on a daily basis; a statement no different than observing how many people in the south say "coke" instead of "soda." I will remind you that just as you are free to keep and bear arms, we are all free to make observations.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
el caballero: It appears that you are the one feeling, perhaps, a bit too sensitive, in this instance. Member godan simply suggested that you refer to but a single post (#18) in this thread of over fifty posts, that explained the point you had questioned in your earlier post. There was nothing argumentative or snarky about his response to you. I suggest you might consider dialing it back...just a bit.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

el caballero said:


> ..at no point did I make any political commentary or judgments as to anyone's decision to carry. I simply noted that I was surprised to learn how many people actually seem to carry on a daily basis...


Really? Your statement in bold below seems to convey a little bit more than casual surprise. It is, in fact, a rather charged sentence and I think godan's reaction was quite subdued.



el caballero said:


> That makes 2 of us. I clicked on this expecting to discover CCW was some sartorial term I had never encountered. As an East Coaster (where most major cities do not permit concealed carry), I have to say *I am a bit worried by the idea of all these guns parading around every day*.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

godan said:


> There are genuine issues of attire that affect many of us who are legally armed, and I hope this thread will not drift into politics. I doubt the moderators would allow it, and other men here may have comments on the central topic.


Correct.



el caballero said:


> That makes 2 of us. I clicked on this expecting to discover CCW was some sartorial term I had never encountered. As an East Coaster *(where most major cities do not permit concealed carry)*, I have to say I am a bit worried by the idea of all these guns parading around every day.


Friend, I strongly take issue with your statement bolded above. I was born and raised in immediate suburbs of Philadelphia, and live in Center City now. Concealed carry is quite commonplace here. New York City is a may-issue locality, as is Boston. The other 'major' cities on the East Coast are in the south, where open carry is the norm. Your statement is wholly incorrect.

DC, not even a state, and known for overly restrictive gun laws (the only place outside of Illinois with stated no-issue legislation), has the blinders on you.

As hardline pointed out, your statements attempt to sway the conversation. I may be out of line with this, but since nobody else has said it, I will: If you come across a thread on AAAC that may contain sensitive subject matter (to some), and it has already been stated that we're trying to keep politics out of this, then don't post. Hit the 'back' button on your browser, and return to the post listings.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

*Thanks*

Gentlemen: Thank you for your support. It is particularly welcome coming, as it does, from those who understand and value the culture of this site - - and who use the language carefully. Godan


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## Jonathan Strange (May 3, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> The conflict was not about gun rights, even if the immediate objective of the troops sent to Lexington was to seize arms.


The reason for the conflict may be most succinctly described using the words of Thomas Paine that "an island cannot rule a continent." American colonists wanted to rule themselves. But they needed access to weapons to gain self-rule, as well as to conquor the remainder of the "continent" (i.e., to parts west). They realized that if the Government owns the weapons, they'd stand no chance of breaking free - thus the action at Concord (and Williamsburg before that). As Madison later led the creation of our Bill of Rights, access to weapons remained so important that it was listed nearly at the top of the list. That strain of gun rights was thus embodied in our people and remains stronger in USA than in Brittania to this day. Thus I believe TheGreatTwizz's original statement to be valid, though it would've been better if "a large part of the reason" was instead written as "part of the reason" or even "..it resulted partly from..."

All of which is a quibble and has nothing whatsoever to do with clothing. Sorry, but because I have no experience with guns I have no opinion on the best way to conceal a weapon. If we were discussing lanyards (my weapon of choice) I'd be better able to stay on topic. I hope no one minds this line of off-topic discourse.


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## Jonathan Strange (May 3, 2012)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> DC, *not even a state*, and *known for overly restrictive gun laws *(the only place outside of Illinois with stated no-issue legislation)...[snip]


Please be careful sir - it is a matter of political argument whether those gun laws are *overly *restrictive. Also, what's wrong with the fact that DC is "not even a state." People in my region are touchy about that point (I hold no offense but found the wording curious).

I do appreciate the facts you shared before that statement...I too had assumed most or all east coast cities did not permit concealed carry within city bounds.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Jonathan Strange said:


> Please be careful sir - it is a matter of political argument whether those gun laws are *overly *restrictive.


That particular matter was settled in 2008. The gun laws were, in fact, overly restrictive to the point that they were deemed *unconstitutional* by the Supreme Court. The matter was given even further resolution in 2010, when the Supreme Court ruled to incorporate the individual right to bear arms under the fourteenth amendment.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

hardline, I say this as someone who generally likes both decisions that you reference, and certainly likes their results: The Supreme Court settles *legal* arguments. I know of no member of the current Court that would claim that their decisions must be adopted as the personal views or policy preferences by any or all Americans.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> hardline, I say this as someone who generally likes both decisions that you reference, and certainly likes their results: The Supreme Court settles *legal* arguments. I know of no member of the current Court that would claim that their decisions must be adopted as the personal views or policy preferences by any or all Americans.


Cuff, you are absolutely right, of course. I made an assumption about Jonathan Strange's knowledge of current firearms legislation based on some of his comments about the legality of carry in certain cities, and that may have been unfair. My reason for citing those decisions is that, when we talk about something as subjective as whether or not certain legislation is overly restrictive, or not enough, it helps when there is at least some standard set. In this case, I cited the legal standard as set by SCOTUS. But given that this is a thread about clothing and not gun politics, it's neither here nor there.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> hardline, I say this as someone who generally likes both decisions that you reference, and certainly likes their results: The Supreme Court settles *legal* arguments. I know of no member of the current Court that would claim that their decisions must be adopted as the personal views or policy preferences by any or all Americans.


Cuff, I don't see where hardline's implication was that the decision should be a personal view or policy preference; he was simply backing up my factual statement of DC's gun laws being overly restrictive, to the point of unconstitutional, and that it wasn't a political statement, it was a legal one.


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## alkydrinker (Apr 24, 2012)

People interested in this thread should check out this awesome video from Portland, ME.






I don't think we can share our feelings too much about this vid, because it would prob get political. However, the video does involve carry issues as well as the wearing of suspenders.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

No we won't remove it. If it turns political it will be moved to the Interchange. This thread is not the first of its kind. It will be the first of its kind if you *gentlemen* keep it sufficiently on point in order that it does not end up on the Interchange.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Cuff, I don't see where hardline's implication ....


In the hopes of keeping this thread out of the interchange, I have sent you a PM. Happy to amicably discuss at length offline, since I think it's an interesting topic, but not one for this forum.


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## Jonathan Strange (May 3, 2012)

I can't help but add that because laws are created by politicians, and based on majority (not unanimous) opinion, I don't know how to distinguish a legal argument from a political one. But this thread should never have become centered on legal matters in any case, given that we're all posting in a fashion forum. I am as guilty as others of derailing us.

Years ago, when taking evening classes to complete my degree, I discovered that a classmate of mine was an FBI agent. It came out when he returned from Pakistan, having pursued the man who murdered commuters at the CIA entrance (alas, his trip wasn't successful, though a later one was). As I surveyed him more closely I noticed that he consistently had a bulge in the small of his back, and he acknowledged that's where he carried his handgun (and he always carried). It was a fairly noticeable bulge, though, so perhaps that's not the best method of carrying.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Jonathan Strange said:


> I can't help but add that because laws are created by politicians, and based on majority (not unanimous) opinion, I don't know how to distinguish a legal argument from a political one. But this thread should never have become centered on legal matters in any case, given that we're all posting in a fashion forum. I am as guilty as others of derailing us.
> 
> Years ago, when taking evening classes to complete my degree, I discovered that a classmate of mine was an FBI agent. It came out when he returned from Pakistan, having pursued the man who murdered commuters at the CIA entrance (alas, his trip wasn't successful, though a later one was). As I surveyed him more closely I noticed that he consistently had a bulge in the small of his back, and he acknowledged that's where he carried his handgun (and he always carried). It was a fairly noticeable bulge, though, so perhaps that's not the best method of carrying.


SOB carry (that's, "small of the back") is probably one of the least recommended types of carry for many reasons. I can't imagine sitting in a classroom with a pistol grinding away at my spine. Also, on a sartorial note, semi-autos with forward serrations can rub their way through a pair of pants pretty quickly if you aren't careful.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> SOB carry (that's, "small of the back") is probably one of the least recommended types of carry for many reasons. I can't imagine sitting in a classroom with a pistol grinding away at my spine. Also, on a sartorial note, semi-autos with forward serrations can rub their way through a pair of pants pretty quickly if you aren't careful.


This is consistent with my experience. Several athletic men I know have tried sob holsters because there appears to be room for one, even in pants that fit well. But, as you say, it usually doesn't work out in real life. The bulge is visible in all manner of postures and painful when one tries to lean back in a chair.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

godan said:


> This is consistent with my experience. Several athletic men I know have tried sob holsters because there appears to be room for one, even in pants that fit well. But, as you say, it usually doesn't work out in real life. The bulge is visible in all manner of postures and painful when one tries to lean back in a chair.


I'm of the camp with fat a*s, thus left with much room in the small of my back. While not terribly comfortable, on me, it is much more concealable than 2:00 or 4:00, especially with a larger weapon.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Tailor comment: We *always* prefer to build jackets to accommodate shoulder or side carry. It is much easier (and much more comfortable) to build in extra (undetectable) underarm space than anywhere else. Of course, tailoring can easily allow for an ankle holster (for the suicidal).


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Well, come the day when California gets with the rest of the nation, that's good to know.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Of course, tailoring can easily allow for an ankle holster (for the suicidal).


Your characterization is spot on. Could you explain a bit more about how you adjust the trouser leg and cuff for an ankle holster? In my experience, the band, usually elastic/velcro fits above the ankle bone on the inside of the weak side leg, with the holster pouch to the rear of the bone. The issues we address are a trouser leg big and heavy enough to conceal the holster and also big enough to pull up quickly. This comes out to baggy pants with cuffs, but I expect you may have a more elegant solution.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

godan said:


> Your characterization is spot on. Could you explain a bit more about how you adjust the trouser leg and cuff for an ankle holster? In my experience, the band, usually elastic/velcro fits above the ankle bone on the inside of the weak side leg, with the holster pouch to the rear of the bone. The issues we address are a trouser leg big and heavy enough to conceal the holster and also big enough to pull up quickly. This comes out to baggy pants with cuffs, but I expect you may have a more elegant solution.


Derringer.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

godan said:


> Your characterization is spot on. Could you explain a bit more about how you adjust the trouser leg and cuff for an ankle holster? In my experience, the band, usually elastic/velcro fits above the ankle bone on the inside of the weak side leg, with the holster pouch to the rear of the bone. The issues we address are a trouser leg big and heavy enough to conceal the holster and also big enough to pull up quickly. This comes out to baggy pants with cuffs, but I expect you may have a more elegant solution.


A bit more seriously ...

1] As regards technique: Firstly you make the trouser leg bottom large enough to accommodate the bulk. Secondly you build in a slight flare so that the diameter of the cuff is slightly larger than the diameter of the leg where the allowance was added. This will cause the cuff to ride outside the trouser leg rather than being caught up by it when pulling up the leg. A strip of interlining can also be inserted inside the cuff to give it a bit of shape. This will assist in its smooth rise.

2] As regards "quickly": Firstly, you increase your life insurance and make certain it is paid up. Secondly, update your Will. You must have missed the part of my previous post where I said "for the suicidal". What do you think the perp is going to be doing while you're bending down and grabbing your trouser cuff? "Quickly" and "ankle holster" are opposite concepts. In my experience the only use for an ankle holster is for a backup or (I didn't say this) throwaway. The only thing which will happen "quickly" if you are depending solely upon that one firearm is your demise.

3] The fact will *always *remain that the fastest location is strong side waist. It requires the least motion and the fewest directional changes from holstered to fired: 90 degrees. Opposite shoulder or weak side waist are second requiring roughly a 180 degree change. SOB requires a similar amount of motion ... but during that motion your barrel is pointed straight at your vital organs ... a wonderful concept during the most stressful of situations. Ankle? Simply requires asking the perp to wait while you go back in time to when humans walked on all fours.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Mr. Kabbaz: Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I had not thought about adjusting the trouser leg to avoid printing through on the inside. The part about "suicidal" in your first post is what I thought was spot on. I know a bit about bringing weapons into play fast, and agree entirely with your views. However, people for whom I occasionally make holsters, including some in law enforcement, cannot be brought to understand the shortcomings of ankle holsters.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

godan said:


> Mr. Kabbaz: Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I had not thought about adjusting the trouser leg to avoid printing through on the inside. The part about "suicidal" in your first post is what I thought was spot on. I know a bit about bringing weapons into play fast, and agree entirely with your views. However, people for whom I occasionally make holsters, including some in law enforcement, cannot be brought to understand the shortcomings of ankle holsters.


Got it. Must be the younger members of the force.

By the way ... if you ever need help fitting a thigh holster ... have needle, will travel.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

I find the previous comments about ankle holsters interesting. I've never worn one myself but I had always heard that their strength (as a backup, of course) was when the wearer found him/herself in a seated position, like in the drivers seat of a vehicle, where a strong side or SOB carry would be difficult to draw from. Any merits to this philosophy?


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

hardline_42 said:


> I find the previous comments about ankle holsters interesting. I've never worn one myself but I had always heard that their strength (as a backup, of course) was when the wearer found him/herself in a seated position, like in the drivers seat of a vehicle, where a strong side or SOB carry would be difficult to draw from. Any merits to this philosophy?


The seated advantage is often mentioned by people who want one. LEO's also say they are happy to get anything they can off the belt. Against that, from my perspective, is the impediment to running (away) and kicking. Trying to run fast with one is no fun. To explore the latter problem, we put one on with a mini-Glock try gun and worked over a standard karate heavy bag. The gun stayed in the holster, but the holster slid down to the foot after a few kicks. Those involved, experienced shooters, LEO's, Army and Marine vets, black belts, etc., were convinced that these problems outweighed any benefit of seated access. I hope somebody will post with a positive case in favor of ankle holsters.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

godan said:


> The seated advantage is often mentioned by people who want one. LEO's also say they are happy to get anything they can off the belt. Against that, from my perspective, is the impediment to running (away) and kicking. Trying to run fast with one is no fun. To explore the latter problem, we put one on with a mini-Glock try gun and worked over a standard karate heavy bag. The gun stayed in the holster, but the holster slid down to the foot after a few kicks. Those involved, experienced shooters, LEO's, Army and Marine vets, black belts, etc., were convinced that these problems outweighed any benefit of seated access. I hope somebody will post with a positive case in favor of ankle holsters.


The solution to that is a holster just below the knee. Same principle as OTC socks. The leg (calf) gets wider from that point down. A properly adjusted holster will not be able to slip down. It will also be slower to access ... but we previously decided that was unimportant. It will also be harder to tailor to keep from seeing the print. Decision: Walk in style or kick in peace?


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## Olifter (Jun 9, 2012)

godan said:


> The seated advantage is often mentioned by people who want one. LEO's also say they are happy to get anything they can off the belt. Against that, from my perspective, is the impediment to running (away) and kicking. Trying to run fast with one is no fun. To explore the latter problem, we put one on with a mini-Glock try gun and worked over a standard karate heavy bag.
> 
> The gun stayed in the holster, but the holster slid down to the foot after a few kicks. Those involved, experienced shooters, LEO's, Army and Marine vets, back belts, etc., were convinced that these problems outweighed any benefit of se
> ated access. I hope somebody will post with a positive case in favor of ankle holsters.


The guy who taught my CCW class is a cop and he carries a Glock on each hip and a Ruger LCR on his ankle on duty.

Off duty, it's the Ruger on the ankle, and another in his pocket. This guys does not fool around.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> The solution to that is a holster just below the knee. Same principle as OTC socks. The leg (calf) gets wider from that point down. A properly adjusted holster will not be able to slip down. It will also be slower to access ... but we previously decided that was unimportant. It will also be harder to tailor to keep from seeing the print. Decision: Walk in style or kick in peace?


Isn't that going to be dangerously slow and clumsy to access? That's one of my objections to the ankle holster, and this would be considerably worse in this regard.

One option that I don't think has been mentioned so far is carrying the gun in a quick-access holster-briefcase or man-bag. Especially with the briefcase, a full duty fighting sidearm can readily be carried.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> The solution to that is a holster just below the knee. Same principle as OTC socks. The leg (calf) gets wider from that point down. A properly adjusted holster will not be able to slip down. *It will also be slower to access ... but we previously decided that was unimportant.* It will also be harder to tailor to keep from seeing the print. Decision: Walk in style or kick in peace?





JLibourel said:


> Isn't that going to be dangerously slow and clumsy to access? That's one of my objections to the ankle holster, and this would be considerably worse in this regard.


 I hear an echo. :icon_smile:



JLibourel said:


> One option that I don't think has been mentioned so far is carrying the gun in a quick-access holster-briefcase or man-bag. Especially with the briefcase, a full duty fighting sidearm can readily be carried.


The original thrust of this thread (IIRC!?!) concerned methods of tailoring which would assist in concealment without being detrimental to style. Though cases provide concealment and quick access - even to the point of shooting through the case, there aren't many on-duty folks who carry them.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

It would look rather odd, wandering around looking relaxed in an aloha shirt and carrying a briefcase . . .


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

I agree with the prior comments regarding the numerous drawbacks of the ankle holster. I am only aware of one fellow for whom the ankle holster was a good solution: a mechanic. He owns his own repair shop in a "transitional" neighborhood. Since he spends a fair amount of time on his back under cars, in addition to strong side carry, he keeps a pistol in an ankle holster in his boot.


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## Bluegrass Man (Jun 26, 2011)

I have one of the Galco tuckable IWB holsters for my Sig. The but prints when tucked unless it's all the way around at 5:30ish, which is terrible. I've resigned myself to looking for a P232 or Colt Cobra or something similar for more formal dress. For warm weather and casual clothing, an untucked Hawaiian, polo, or button up sport shirt are more than sufficient to cover up my P245.

Edit to add:Ankle holsters would only be acceptable to me if there was absolutely no other choice, or if I felt it necessary to have a backup piece and didn't want to use a weakside or pocket holster.


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