# Official Black-Tie thread? duke wears notchded lapel dj in official portrait



## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

It seems black-tie fashion is always a hot discussion.
Is there a special section to deal with it? I havent been able to find any black-tie sticky threads. Am I not looking hard enough?

Below is a recent official portrait of Prince Philip Duke of Edinburg,
Notice he is clearly wearing a notched dinner jacket. Has this been a fashion-forward monarchy in anybody's opinion?


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

If there were an official formalwear thread, I would hope that it wouldn't begin with this picture as a "go-by". Perhaps someone with a bit more style than Prince Phillip should be our role model. The list is extensive...


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

Note that he has buttons on his shirt not studs.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

gng8 said:


> Note that he has buttons on his shirt not studs.


I prefer studs or covered front like 007 ( with cumberbun), but never buttons.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

What can one say? He's obviously taking the "semi" part of "semi-formal" seriously.

And who's going to call him on it?


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

gng8 said:


> Note that he has buttons on his shirt not studs.


Actually, that's common practice in the UK for semi-formal wear. It's been brought up a few times in threads.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

This isn't even the first time that the Duke of Edinburgh has been photographed wearing a DJ with notch lapels.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

The Duke is not alone. Sir Ian McKellan is pictured on Richard Anderson's website wearing a notch lapel DJ. Huntsman's RTW DJs have notched lapels.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> The Duke is not alone. Sir Ian McKellan is pictured on Richard Anderson's website wearing a notch lapel DJ. Huntsman's RTW DJs have notched lapels.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Daniel Craig wears notch lapel when not James Bond.*

Daniel Craig wears notch lapel when not James Bond. But still no patent leather shoes.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*007 says no to cumberbun*

What no cumberbun? If I had is waist and build I'd try it, maybe...


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*A belt with a tux!!!!! What the ^#%#^%$!*

Who is this guy?


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Wing collar in black tie with the Queen*

Wing collar AND notch lapel with black-tie, perhaps he is the waiter. Personal taste ot faux pas? You decide!


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> Daniel Craig wears notch lapel when not James Bond. But still no patent leather shoes.


What a monster break


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Look at this guy , NOAH?*

Funny thing is, this guy thinks he looks good!


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

What's next, jeans and tuxedo jackets?


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Honestly, I think the bigger crime (than which lapel or collar style you choose) is if you wear a pre-tied bow tie. I have yet to see one that doesn't look cheesy and "too perfect."


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> Funny thing is, this guy thinks he looks good!


Yikes! I think someone forgot what "dry clean only" means. Good to know Pee Wee Herman is still getting out in public these days.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> Funny thing is, this guy thinks he looks good!


Actually, the funny thing is that Brooks Brothers thinks he looks good.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*4 Basic styles of formal/ semi-formal dress shoes*

The opera pump, I'm tempted, but are they comfortable to walk/ dance in all night?










A&E Kendall









A&E Copely









J&M Blucher plain toe Derby


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> The opera pump, I'm tempted, but are they comfortable to walk/ dance in all night?


If they fit well, yes. I have a pair of AE Ritz that fit me well and they're a very comfortable shoe. I have a pair of Church's from BB that I got on discount that are too narrow for me and they aren't (anyone want an 11 1/2 D that runs very narrow??? Yours for the shipping.)


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Is that an opera pump or a fancy loafer? What qualifies as an opera pump?


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*What's next...you guessed it!*



Scoundrel said:


> What's next, jeans and tuxedo jackets?


You asked for it! Click here if you dare. This add is for you Scoundrel!
https://www.smarttuxedo.com/Tuxedos...With-Jeans-for-that-Casual-Chic-Look-652.html


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> If they fit well, yes. I have a pair of AE Ritz that fit me well and they're a very comfortable shoe. I have a pair of Church's from BB that I got on discount that are too narrow for me and they aren't (anyone want an 11 1/2 D that runs very narrow??? Yours for the shipping.)


Yes! me me me I'm 11.5 narrow D!!


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Albert Thurston White Moiré braces James Bond Casino Royal*

Albert Thurston White Moiré braces, yes the same ones 007 wore in Casino Royal
$69.00 USD I can't believe he removed his jacket at the table, but then again..this was a young new 007 who isn't perfect, he has emotional comittment issues, makes mistakes, but at least does many of his own stunts. Gee...sounds like most of us. I know I don't have a stuntman.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Daniel Craig is wearing a pair of John Lobb "Luffield" shoes in the movie Casino Roya*

*Nice shoes, but IMHO he should have wore black patent with his dj. What do you think?*

*







*










*Daniel Craig is wearing a pair of John Lobb "Luffield" shoes in the movie Casino Roya*
*Product details:*
2 eyelet derby.
Plain vamp.
Sweeping quarters.
Hand finished bevelled waist.
Pewter Museum Calf.
Sizes: 5 to 12

*Available Colors:*
black museum calf
dark brown museum calf
pewter museum calf
chestnut museum calf
parisian brown museum calf
cashew museum calf
khaki museum calf
deep blue museum calf
red museum calf
dark brown suede
parisian brow n suede
pewter suede sea green suede

*Price:* -- Product Code: cl011
 Official John Lobb website ( for the Luffield detail page, visit www.johnlobb.com, choose your region, click on "Ready to Wear", choose "Derby", choose "Prestige" and finally... choose the right top shoe "Luffield")


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*James Bond Casino Royale Limited Edition Evening Shirt & Bow Tie*

Sold Out, I already tried! 
*Price:* £ 245 









I'm not saying I like his style and I don't subscribe to dj sans cumberbun. I'm just showing what is current for 007.
James Bond Casino Royale Limited Edition Evening Shirt & Bow Tie

Turnbull & Asser, the world renowned Jermyn Street shirt maker, is proud to be launching its first "Limited Collection" Shirt and Bow Tie combination to be featured in the new film *Casino Royale*. The James Bond Casino Royale Limited Edition Evening Shirt & Bow Tie is available in Turnbull & Asser stores.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*007 cuff links*

S.T. Dupont James Bond Casino Royale Cufflinks 
S.T. Dupont has created a pair of exclusive palladium cuff links in a very distinctive and forceful shape, worn by James Bond in *Casino Royale*, they come with a certificate which states that they are the exact reproduction of the cuff links from the movie. *$2100.00 USD*


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*I Wish I Had A Plain-toe, Balmoral Oxford*



Capt Ron said:


> A&E Copely


I would like to get that in plain (non-patent) calf. For business, that is...

Then you would have a plain-toe, balmoral oxford.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

"Creative Black Tie - There is no definition for this, that is, most anything goes as long as you are wearing a tuxedo jacket. One shudders to think some may voluntarily choose to wear a tuxedo jacket and bluejean cut-offs. We believe creative black tie provides you with the opportunity to wear an interesting novelty vest which makes your outfit stand out from the crowd."

Taken from https://www.etuxedo.com/tuxedos_101.htm

I guess it's technically correct. I am pretty tolerant when it comes to fashion, but jeans and a tux jacket is a pet peeve of mine.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Orsini said:


> I would like to get that in plain (non-patent) calf. For business, that is...
> 
> Then you would have a plain-toe, balmoral oxford.


I like a little square in the toe, a bit more masculine. Just a tad, not enough to be considered fashion forward. I like the j.Lobbs I posted that 007 wore in Casino Royale.

I have been asking the females which toe style they prefer and so far the majority find a squarer toe more attractive on a man's foot. Most quote it as "more manly" Odd how we associate shapes with gender traits, but then again, is it really odd to consider anything curvy to be feminine?
probaly just thousands of years of admiring their shapes I suppose.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Scoundrel said:


> "Creative Black Tie - There is no definition for this, that is, most anything goes as long as you are wearing a tuxedo jacket. One shudders to think some may voluntarily choose to wear a tuxedo jacket and bluejean cut-offs. We believe creative black tie provides you with the opportunity to wear an interesting novelty vest which makes your outfit stand out from the crowd."
> 
> Taken from https://www.etuxedo.com/tuxedos_101.htm
> 
> I guess it's technically correct. I am pretty tolerant when it comes to fashion, but jeans and a tux jacket is a pet peeve of mine.


I just do it with my velvet dj only on occasion, but I'm super cool , so it's ok 
What an idiotic picture to model though huh?


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> I just do it with my velvet dj only on occasion, but I'm super cool , so it's ok
> What an idiotic picture to model though huh?


For those who are into that kind of thing, I actually think he does pull it off.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*"Essential Black-Tie Guide*

*Classic Black Tie*

*https://blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/1_Definition.htm*

*dinner jacket*



color: 
• black is the norm
• midnight blue with black trimming is equally correct 
_material: finished or unfinished worsted wool_ 
model can be:
• single-breasted 
• double-breasted 
lapels can be:
• peaked lapel
• shawl collar
and can have:
• satin facing
• grosgrain facing _considered more refined_[/I] 
sleeve buttons: covered in same fabric as lapel facings 
_one waist button is most traditional for single-breasted_ 
vents: no vents is most formal _but minimal side vents are acceptable_ 
_pockets: welt breast pocket and double besom waist pockets_
*formal trousers*

matching color and material with jacket 
single braid along seams to match lapel facings 
natural taper 
_pleated front _
_no cuffs _
*formal shirt*



white fabric 
collar can be:
• wing collar, described by many authorities as the most formal but some insist it is the exclusive domain of white tie; _best styled as per white tie wing-collar shirts and best paired with peaked lapel jacket_ 
•turndown collar ​

fronts can be either pleated or piqué _but top fashion authorities call for a stiff_ _unpleated bib with the wing collar and a pleated bib with the soft turndown collars; Marcella shirt offers a compromise between the two other styles_ 
eyelets for studs and French cuffs for links 
*formal waist covering*

black waist covering can be either:
• cummerbund
•waistcoat 
_worn with single-breasted jacket models (since they are customarily worn unbuttoned) but not with double-breasted (since they are worn buttoned)_ 
_cummerbund is best paired with shawl collar _
_waistcoat is best paired with peaked lapel jacket_ 
_most traditional style of waistcoat has lapels and is low cut and fastened with three closely spaced buttons for single-breasted models and six buttons for double-breasted_
*formal neckwear* 

black silk bow tie to match lapel facings 
_butterfly or batwing shape _
_self-tie_
*formal footwear*



black shoes:
•patent leather pumps are most traditional
•(patent) Oxfords are acceptable 
black silk or fine fabric hose, over-the-calf length
*formal accessories*

_button-on_ suspenders 
harmonizing black, gold or mother-of-pearl studs and cufflinks 
white silk or linen handkerchief 
*Classic Warm Weather Black Tie*

Acceptable year round in tropical climates and in summer in North America 

*dinner jacket*



white or preferably ivory 
_material: finished or unfinished worsted lightweight wool; cotton, gabardine or linen_ 
_shawl lapel is favored and is usually self faced (i.e. same fabric as rest of jacket)_ 
all other details as per classic jacket
*formal trousers*

black 
all other details as per classic trousers
*formal shirt*

_traditionally a__ pleated bib front with soft turndown collar_ 
all other details as per classic shirt
*formal waist covering*

black or dark colored cummerbund _with single-breasted jacket_
_no waist covering with double-breasted jacket_
*formal neckwear *

as per classic neckwear 
*formal footwear *


[*]as per classic footwear
[*]_pumps are particularly appropriate _
*formal accessories*

_dark _colored silk or linen handkerchief
all other details as per standard accessories
*Classic Dinner Jackets*

The dinner jacket is the foundation of the black tie ensemble. The model, style and facings chosen for the jacket set the tone for the formality and swank of the rest of the formal attire.

More than any other component, the jacket embodies the level of refined detail that clearly distinguishes formalwear from a simple dark suit.

https://blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/Dinner_Jacket/Henry_Poole_tuxedo.jpg
https://blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/Dinner_Jacket/4B_DB_PL_barathea.gif(Top left: Henry Poole & Co, top right: Norton & Townsend, 
bottom left: Neil Allyn, bottom right: Raffinati)​
Single-breasted peaked lapel ​
Double-breasted peaked lapel 
https://blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/Dinner_Jacket/BT_malos_australia.gif
https://blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/Dinner_Jacket/DB SC raffinati.gif
Single-breasted shawl collar
Double-breasted shawl collar
*The Four Archetypes*​
*• Model*
Both single- and double-breasted models are equally authentic and correct. 

The single-breasted model is customarily worn unbuttoned requiring the trousers' exposed waistband to be covered by a cummerbund or waistcoat. This in turn provides more opportunities for versatility in a man's formal ensemble. 

The double-breasted model looks better buttoned when the wearer is standing which means there is no need for any sort of waist covering. However, as _Style and the Man_ wisely points out, because men tend to unbutton it when seated this model ends up being fussed with more than its single-breasted counterpart. The double-breasted has also traditionally been considered less formal due to the lack of accompanying cummerbund or waistcoat. 

Like the tailcoat, the classic single-breasted dinner jacket takes one waist button. The double-breasted model has either one or two pairs of buttons.

*• Lapels*
*Style*
As with the single- and double-breasted models, both the peaked lapel and shawl collar are authentic and correct. 

The peaked lapel is derived from the tailcoat and for that reason some consider it the most traditional of the two styles. Others prefer it for the way its upward sweep emphasizes the wearer's prominence and heightas_ Dressing the Man_ remarks.

The shawl collar conveys a softer, somewhat more vintage European image than its angular counterpart. Influenced by the smoking jacket, it could be argued that it is also slightly less formal. Conversely, because it is a style that is worn only for eveningwear, it tends to be favored by the most sophisticated dressers. It is the style most popular on alternative dinner jackets, such as the white summer jacket and the velvet smoking jacket, as well as the more idiosyncratic ones such as wool tartan. 

*Facings*

The best lapel facings are made of pure silk, while less expensive ones contain a synthetic component. The silk can take the form of smooth satin or the dulled ribbed texture of grosgrain. Although the former is much more common in North America, the latter's tailcoat pedigree means that it has always been considered a bit more refined than the shinier, more theatrical satin. 

Keep in mind that the facing chosen for the lapels will determine the facings of the bowtie and cummerbund as they are all required to be similar. Here too, grosgrain may be seen as preferable because it allows the bow tie some contrast in texture while satin requires an exact match which can result in a more contrived effect, particularly if the neckwear is not hand-tied. 

*Buttonhole*

Men's fashion guru Alan Flusser strongly recommends that all dinner jackets have a working buttonhole on the left lapel for a boutonniere. Ready-to-wear jackets may have to be taken to a qualified tailor who will know where to locate the hole and how to skillfully add it to the silk-faced lapel. Mr. Flusser advises that the opening should be no less than one inch in length.

Custom-made formal jackets will not only include a buttonhole but also a stem holder on the reverse side of the lapel. This is typically a very small cord that keeps the stem in place so that your flower does not fall out of one's lapel over the course of an active evening. 

*• Color *
While black is the norm, midnight blue is also a classic. Midnight blue achieved its popularity in the 1930s due to its ability to retain its richness under artificial light whereas black fabric is generally more reflective and can sometimes give off a greenish or grayish cast. For this reason it is frequently described as being "blacker than black" although "richer than black" would be a more realistic representation. According to _Dressing the Man, _midnight blue dinner jackets originally took matching facings but black grosgrain or satin trimmings have been worn since the thirties. Sadly, such a garment is rarely offered in the ready-to-wear world and can usually only be obtained on a made-to-measure basis.

A white dinner jacket may be worn in warm weather but only under certain conditions. See Warm Weather Black Tie for complete details. 

*• Fabric*
_*Material *_
Formalwear is typically made from finished or unfinished worsted wool. ("Worsted" is a type of yarn that produces a firm, napless fabric.) Because tuxedos are worn far less frequently than business suits and don't have to stand up to the same amount of wear and tear over time they can be made of a much finer wool than their everyday counterparts. 

*Finish*
Alan Flusser provides superb advice on the choosing a fabric finish:

Like the tailcoat, dinner clothes are trimmed in facings of varying degrees of luster; therefore, so as not to overstate the sheen quotient, the dinner jacket's base cloth should be in a dulled or matte finish. Subtle textured weave effects such as baratheas and mini-herringbones, or quiet variegated effects avoid affectation while adding surface interest to the formal ensemble. 

This advice applies more to North Americans as Britons don't have to be convinced to avoid sheen overload. In the United Kingdom barathea is considered the norm for evening wear wools and silks. 

*Weight*
For advice on fabric weight, we turn once again to _Style and the Man_: Unfortunately, contrary to popular opinion, there is no such thing as a year-round weight; no cloth can both warm you in the frost of winter and cool you in the heat of summer. However, a fine worsted cloth of 9 to 10 ounces will get one through most climate-controlled environments rather handsomely. Since most affairs include dancing and dining, when in doubt, err on the lighter side. While your dinner jacket may never drape like the gravity-prone, 14 ounce ones worn in the old movies, you should not have to suffer in pursuit of elegance either. If you wear a dinner jacket frequently enough to justify owning more than one, a choice of weights will certainly expand your style and comfort quotient. You could drop to a lighter, 7 ½ or 8 ounce fabric for summer wear and move up to a fuller 11 or 12 ounce weight for fall and winter.

*• Pockets *
The double-besomed (slit) waist pocket is the only style simple enough to compliment the dressy dinner jacket. _Style and the Man_ explains that flap pockets are not appropriate for formalwear because they are a busier design and add a layer of cloth to the hip that interferes with the slimming look of the jacket. Like notch lapels, they are an attempt by certain tuxedo manufacturers to save money although some designers will trim the edges of a flap pocket so that the flap can be removed to reveal a formal besom. Besom pockets can be of self fabric or trimmed with the lapel's silk facing. 
The dinner jacket must also have a welt breast pocket to hold a handkerchief. 

*• Vents *
The original dinner jackets were made without vents then later offered with side vents. While side vents provide easier access to trouser pockets and are more comfortable to sit in, they also make the jacket less slimming and compromise the intended formality of the tuxedo. Single vents are the least acceptable because they open up when a man puts his hand in his trouser pocket, exposing the seat of his pants and often a white patch of shirt to boot.

*• Buttons *
Like the tailcoat and better business suits, classic dinner jacket sleeves should be finished with four buttons with their edges touching. 

As mentioned above, the number of waist buttons is determined by the jacket's model. 

All of the jacket's buttons can be plain or covered in the lapel's facing. 

*Classic Black Tie Trousers*

Formal trousers are made of the same fabric as the jacket and should have a natural taper. While plain-front trousers are more common, pleated trousers add a touch of elegance and make sitting easier and more comfortable. 

The waistband is meant to be covered either by a cummerbund, waistcoat or closed double-breasted jacket. This fact dictates that the trouser waist should sit as high as comfortable which is largely why they are designed to be held up by suspenders. Suspenders also help to keep the trouser's pleats flat underneath the waist covering.

A trimmed waistband is a recent invention designed to act a cummerbund substitute but is no substitute for the real thing. As Allan Flusser explains in _Style and the Man_, "Formal dress is ultimately about good form, and sometimes quick fixes that compromise such form need to be recognized as such and be avoided."

The side seams of formal trousers are also covered. This is done by trimming them with a single band of facing that is either satin or grosgrain to match the jacket's lapels. 

Side pockets are usually cut on the side seam because vertical pockets are dressier and easier to access, particularly when wearing a cummerbund or waistcoat. 

Finally, trouser legs are always plain as cuffs are too casual and would interfere with the side braid. 

​
*Classic Black Tie Shirts*


In North America there are two equally correct styles of shirts that are worn with a dinner jacket. 

The first and most formal is the white-tie shirt with a stiff wing collar and equally stiff front either of piqué or starched cotton. 

The second is the unstarched turndown collar shirt with soft pleated fronts and French cuffs that was introduced as a more comfortable alternative by the Duke of Windsor while he was Prince of Wales. In the United Kingdom, turndown collar shirts are often made with a piqué collar and matching front, called a Marcella shirt.

Either style can be paired with any of the four archetypal jackets but the wing collar's dramatic points harmonize best with the angles of the peaked lapel jacket. Conversely, the hidden tips of turndown spread collar complement the less sharply defined lines of the shawl collar jacket.

In Britain the turndown collar is the only option for black tie according to _Debretts New Guide to Etiquette and Modern Manners_ which regards the wing collar as the exclusive domain of white tie. Others are more accepting of the wing collar provided it is the traditional style rather than the modern attached-collar version that is universally shunned by British traditionalists.

*• Wing Collar Shirt*
*Collar*
The collar of the full dress formal shirt is distinguished not just by its folded wings but also by its height. Originally, these detachable wing collars stood nearly as high as the wearer's jawline. Combined with the broad wings that helped keep the bow tie perfectly in place, the resulting effect "framed all men's faces in regal splendor" to quote Allan Flusser. Unfortunately, the practice of wearing wing-collared shirts declined dramatically after the introduction of the formal turndown shirt for dinner jackets in the 1930s. The tradition all but disappeared after World War II when black tie effectively replaced the tailcoat as the most formal type of attire. Although it returned to semi-formal wear in the late 1970s, the wing collar was now attached to the shirt and little more than a shadow of its former self as Flusser explains in _Dressing the Man_: 

Most of today's ready- or custom-made [wing collar] versions make their wearers look like mad scientists; with one twist of the head and the collar's limp, diminutive points tend to roll over the bow tie. Unfortunately, once fashion mandated ready-to-wear versions, its attached collar became homogenized for broader appeal, thus forfeiting most of its function and all of its individual refinement. 

*Front (revised May 25, 2007) *
Another offshoot of the mass production of wing collar shirts was the industry's arbitrary addition of pleats to their fronts. Originally the original wing collar dress shirt commanded a military-like formality which is why it took a stiff and simple front, either in piqué or starched cotton. The more casual turndown collar shirt, on the other hand, had to be dressed up with pleats in order to make it formal enough for evening wear. The resulting combination of superfluous soft pleats with a shirt that was already at the apex of formality is particularly galling to Alan Flusser who calls it "a mutt of a garment if there ever was one".

*Cuffs and Studs*
Wing collar shirts take starched barrel cuffs ("single cuffs" in Britain) as they, like the collar's height, were intended to show more than the softer French-style double cuffs. In addition, these shirts take one or two studs, depending on the wearer's height. 

*• Turndown Collar Shirt*
*Collar*
Also known as laydown collar, this collar can either be spread (as per the photo of the 1/2" shirt pleats) or semi-spread (as per the other pleat shirt photos). The spread collar is considered more formal but both are acceptable. 

*Front*
The _Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes_ sagely advises that the front pleats should be refined: fewer pleats are more sophisticated than many. 

*Cuffs and Studs*
Turndown formal shirts always take French cuffs. In addition, they have two or three studs depending on the wearer's height. 

*• Other Details*
*Bib Front*
Better made formal shirts will always have a bib-shaped double layer of fabric covering the bosom of the shirt. This is the only part of the shirt's torso that will be exposed by the jacket and waist covering so it is the only portion that is decorated with either piqué or pleats. The bib construction is designed primarily to prevent the shirtfront from billowing out like a sail when the wearer sits down and the excess fabric has nowhere else to go. This is a particular problem for "boiled" shirtfronts that are starched to a cardboard-like stiffness. In order to avoid this conundrum, the bib's length must end just above the waist. For similar reasons, its width should not extend beyond the suspenders. 

Another benefit of a proper bib is that its extra thickness ensures that the shirt's front will be as white as its collar and cuffs which are constructed in a similar manner. 

*Trouser Tab*
While a correct bib length will prevent a starched shirt front from billowing out when one sits down, a separate solution is required to keep any style of shirt from pulling out of the trousers when one stands up. That is why higher-end formal shirts have a tab attached to a button on the inside of the trouser's waistband. Like the bottom of the bib, the tab is hidden by the formal waist covering.

*Bow Tie Loop*
Modern manufacturers' final insult to the dignity of the wing collar shirt is the omission of the bow tie loop. It is a little known fact today that the band of the bow tie should never be seen above the jacket's collar. While such a lapse might have little impact on the stateliness of white tie due to the fact that both tie and collar are identical colors, the appearance of a contrasting black band riding up a white collar lends a distinctly disheveled look to a black tie ensemble. Luckily the solution is as close as the nearest tailor. Adding a small white loop of fabric to the shirt immediately _below_ the collar will keep the band discreetly tucked away under the jacket.

A contemporary variation on this feature is the "tunnel collar" which consists of a hem sewn onto the back of the shirt collar. While this second layer of material hides the portion of the tie band that runs behind the neck, it does nothing to prevent it from riding up the collar and pulling up the exposed front portion with it. 

*Classic Waistcoat and Cummerbund*



The wearing of a waistcoat or cummerbund with formal attire is not so much about adding an extra garment as it is about enhancing the underlying apparel. _Dressing the Man_ explains this principle of proper formalwear: 

The underpinning of high-class dinner clothes was originally designed to be invisible. Dress studs hid the evening shirt's stud holes, and silk bands covered the formal trousers' outside seams. Following in the tailcoat's footsteps, the single-breasted dinner jacket requires the services of the dress vest or cummerbund to conceal and smooth over the edges of the shirt's bosom and the exposed trouser waistband. 

At first, black tie simply appropriated the evening waistcoat from its full dress progenitor. Then it discovered the cummerbund, a slightly less formal option to call its own. Consequently, both garments are considered authentic and correct. Although they may be paired with either style of dinner jacket lapel, _Dressing the Man_ voices the consensus on preferred combinations:

The single-breasted dinner jacket with peaked lapels, like its tailcoat predecessor, synchronizes better with the dress waistcoat, since the vest's lower points echo those of the coat lapels above. While the shawl-lapel dinner jacket can accommodate either style of waist décor, the cummerbund's curve harmonizes particularly well with the lapels' rounded shape. 

Part of the original appeal of the double-breasted dinner jacket was that it did away with the need for a separate waist covering due to the fact that it was always buttoned up. Consequently, waistcoats and cummerbunds are only worn with single-breasted jackets.

*• Waistcoat*
The obsequious high-buttoned vests available from today's formalwear retailers are essentially glorified three-piece suit vests and as such are definitely not classic. The traditional evening waistcoat is identifiable by its low-buttoned design that is intended to conceal the trouser waist (thus its name) and the suspenders without obscuring the formal shirt's elegantly decorated bib. It is also distinguished by the presence of lapels. 

The formal waistcoat is acceptable in either single- or double-breasted designs with the bottom of the vest typically ending in two points that can be angular or rounded. It has a shawl collar with bottom edges that are also square cut or rounded. The most traditional style is the three-button single-breasted.

Lapel facings should match those of the dinner jacket. In the case of satin jacket lapels, it is also permissible to have the complete waistcoat constructed of the same material. While usually black, formal vests are the perfect opportunity to add a touch of sophisticated color to one's black tie wardrobe.

Waistcoats can have either a full back or they may be the more common backless variety introduced by the Duke of Windsor as another of his contributions to formalwear comfort. _Dressing the Man_ points out that better models will have a longer back and small side vents to facilitate access to trouser pockets.

*• Cummerbund*

According to the _Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes_, the cummerbund was brought to England from India by the British officers serving there. It was originally a long, brightly colored sash that was tied outside a tunic and called a "Kamarband" (Hindustani for "loin band"). Although it covered the trouser waist as effectively as the waistcoat, its comparative simplicity designated it as a less formal alternative.

_Style and the Man_ instructs readers that a fine-quality cummerbund has a little pocket stitched behind its deepest pleat on the wearer's right side. This is to provide a handy and dignified place to keep theater or opera tickets at the ready, which explains why the cummerbund is always worn with its folds pointing upwards. 

Like its more conservative counterpart, the cummerbund is made of the same satin or grosgrain as the dinner jacket lapels. It is also an ideal mechanism for introducing color into the black tie ensemble. 
*
Classic Black Tie Neckwear
*


*The formal bow tie is not just black tie's namesake but also its piece de resistance as this single element has come to embody the formality and elegance of the entire tuxedo ensemble. When a gentleman enters a room, it is the black bow shape framed against a crisp, white shirt that immediately sets his formalwear apart from a simple dark suit. In the tuxedo's heyday formal ties were available in an almost infinite variety of shapes and sizes. Today the options are extremely limited but fortunately there are still a few online manufacturers and local tailors that offer custom fabrications.*

*Self-Tie versus Pre-Tied*
The choice of bow tie model separates the men from the boys. A gentleman would no more consider wearing a pre-tied bow tie to a formal function than he would donning a clip-on Windsor knot tie for work. _Style and the Man_ voices sartorialists' unanimous preference for the self-tie model:

Although the black tie ensemble is a rather strict form dress, its bow tie and pocket-handkerchief offer some latitude for personal expression. They both look best done by hand, and a lack of perfection is desired, humanizing the ensemble and making it appear more individual. Most men cringe at the very thought of having to knot their own bow, but it is rare to find a stylish man who has not overcome that fear.

The decision to avoid self-tie (or "freestyle") models is invariably based on ignorance rather than experience: most men have no idea that the process is virtually identical to tying a simple shoelace bow. 

*Fixed Size versus Adjustable*
Adjustable models are the norm nowadays but sized ties are preferable. The primary advantage of a fixed length is that the width of the finished bow is designed to be directly proportioned to a specific neck size as opposed to the one-size-fits-all bow which is expected to accommodate necks ranging from 14" to 18" in circumference. And because the fitted models are made from a single piece of material, their exposed bands forego the excess folded-over material and unsightly metal clasps characteristic of the adjustable versions.

*• Styles*
The shape of one's bow is a matter of personal preference although the pointed-end options coordinate nicely with the angularity of peaked lapels and wing collars. 

*Name**Bow Shape**Tie Shape**Tie Width*[/B]classic "Butterfly" 


3" to 3½" 
modern "Butterfly" 
or "Thistle"
(classic "Semi-Butterfly")


2¼" to 2¾" 
"Batwing" 
(classic "Straight-End") 


1½" to 2" 
"Pointed-End"

The ends of the butterfly or batwing designs can be made pointed to create an elongated version of the diamond bow tie
2¼" to 2¾" 
The dotted lines shown on the above patterns indicate where the tie is folded to create the bow shape. In the case of pointed ties, the second point is achieved when the other end of the tie is folded behind the first. (See Supplemental: How to Tie a Bow Tie for further details.) 

Unlike its shape, the tie's size must follow certain guidelines to ensure a handsome proportion. Originally the rule of thumb was that the outer edges of the bow never extended beyond the edges of the collar. However, since wing collars are now much smaller than they were, it is safer to say that the finished bow should fall somewhere between the width of the wearer's face and the outer edges of his eyes. In terms of tie width (i.e. the vertical measurement of the tie ends), these tend to vary by bow style (see chart). In general, wider ties work well with higher collars as they prevent the bow from becoming insignificant. 

*• Placement*

When worn with wing collars, bow ties are placed in front of the wings because, as _Style and the Man_ points out, the original collars were bone hard and therefore it was impossible to place their parts over the bow. Etiquette aside, this positioning is also the more practical choice as the collar's wings help to keep the bow in place by pressing it forward.

*• Color*
The term "black tie" says it all. When it comes to classic tuxedo neckwear, the only allowable color other than ebony is midnight blue - and that's solely because it is considered blacker than black. 

*• Material*
The texture of the bow is governed by the lapel facing of the dinner jacket. A satin lapel calls for a satin bow tie while grosgrain facings require a ribbed finish. Like the jacket lapels, a quality bow tie will always be constructed of pure silk.

​


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*When to wear white dinner jackets/ tuxedo jackets*

*From the "Essential black-Tie Guide"*



*Summer Season*

_Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes_ and _Style and the Man_ define the summer season as being from Memorial Day to Labor Day in the United States. In Canada the equivalent period is Victoria Day to Labour Day. 

Numerous web sites claim that white dinner jackets may be worn from mid-April to Labor Day. However, these sites all appear to draw their information from two sources. One is a dress code definition used by the tuxedo rental industry which obviously has a vested interest in maximizing the rental period for their products. The other source is a Wikipedia article on black tie written by unaccredited public contributors. There is likely also a regional discrepancy at play as the southern states enjoy a longer hot weather season than do their northern neighbors.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Do you know how to tie a bow tie?*

*ØTying a Bow Tie*



Pre-tieds might look cute on little boys but a grown man should know how to tie his own neckwear. See How to Tie a Bow Tie for easy step-by-step instructions.


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## Flashy (Mar 15, 2006)

blacktieguide.com


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

I know you always unbotton the bottom button of your waistcoat/vest, but do follow the same rule with a 3 button one?


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Keep'em buttoned*



clemsontiger said:


> I know you always unbotton the bottom button of your waistcoat/vest, but do follow the same rule with a 3 button one?


You only have three buttons, use all three or you'll look sloppy more than fashion-able.

Why is your jacket coming off? 
If you're sitting at a table noone will see it either way.

Let's see what others have to say.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> ...I have been asking the females which toe style they prefer and so far the majority find a squarer toe more attractive on a man's foot...


Well, these "Copley Orsini Special" shoes would be mostly for business, not social...

Molloy does not have much to say about toe-shape for social. Maybe you two should work together. I expect his book is just about ready for an updated edition...


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Orsini said:


> Well, these "Copley Orsini Special" shoes would be mostly for business, not social...
> 
> Molloy does not have much to say about toe-shape for social. Maybe you two should work together. I expect his book is just about ready for an updated edition...


Orsini,
IMHO
What attracts a classy woman is subtle strength. A slightly squarish toe offers just that, a bit greater foundation to a man's stance inside and out. In business, it would provide greater admiration, strength, and stability as well. If the equilibrium is offset with too much corner and not enough curve, then we lose complete executive power to a fashion-forward faux pas.
I believe one should have to look thrice to notice the difference. Even twice is not a subtle enough diversion. Iv'e heard it's a tertiary endeavor that is often the charm


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

If there is one thing you can say this thread has proven, it is that actors are merely overpaid ex-waiters who continue to dress like waiters long after they make it into the limelight. What a pity that we live in a trashy celeb worshipping society which aspires to dressing like waiters. Harsh perhaps but someone has to call the 'emperor' (or more exactly, waiter) naked. 

There was a time parents no more wanted their children to become actors than one would today wish them grow up to be porn stars. What a shame that society now elevates them to the point that one happily discusses them in the same sentence as royalty. 

As for Prince Philip, it should be recalled that for state occasions, the Royals wear proper full dress. Dinner jackets, traditionally known as "informal dinner clothes", are thus properly a form of sl0bwear good for more casual dinner time affairs. In that context, the informality of the notch lapel is perfectly appropriate. In fact, it is all nothing new at all:



From 1927:



Unfortunately, somewhere along the way this form of evening sl0bwear became mainstream as a form of ersatz formal dress. The transition point was sometime after the 1950s as this photograph from the Academy Awards in 1951 demonstrates:



Notice the mixture of formal dress and informal dinner dress.

However, if forced to comply with modern dress codes and wear informal dinner sl0bwear to what ought to be a full dress event, the least one can do is wear a dinner jacket with the more formal peak lapel.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

*Thank you Sator for the historical perspective*

In the OP the Duke certainly looks as if he is at an 'official' engagement or at least sitting for an official portrait. He also sported a notch lapel DJ in the recent official picture taken to mark the Diamond Wedding Anniversary.










While he may not be (as others have said) any role model for the 'cognoscenti', he does move in pretty formal cirlcles and clearly seems happy in his DJ.....Gucci loafers too!


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

Sator said:


> There was a time parents no more wanted their child to be an actor than one would today wish them grow up to be porn stars.


My understanding is that working as an actor automatically disqualifies you for listing in the Social Register.


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

Ron,

I'm not talking about the bottom button of the coat but of the vest. It's proper to leave the bottom button of your vest unbuttoned at all times. But according to the pictures that Sator posted it looks that it is or was appropriate to button all three buttons on a low cut vest.


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

clemsontiger said:


> Ron,
> 
> I'm not talking about the bottom button of the coat but of the vest. It's proper to leave the bottom button of your vest unbuttoned at all times. But according to the pictures that Sator posted it looks that it is or was appropriate to button all three buttons on a low cut vest.


Yes, on a black/white tie vest, you button all the buttons. On the lounge/business suit vest, you don't button the last button.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Capt Ron said:


> I like a little square in the toe, a bit more masculine. Just a tad, not enough to be considered fashion forward. I like the j.Lobbs I posted that 007 wore in Casino Royale.
> 
> I have been asking the females which toe style they prefer and so far the majority find a squarer toe more attractive on a man's foot. Most quote it as "more manly" Odd how we associate shapes with gender traits, but then again, is it really odd to consider anything curvy to be feminine?
> probaly just thousands of years of admiring their shapes I suppose.


The big square toe just happens to be trendy right now. Dont do it, you will regret it.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Brideshead said:


> In the OP the Duke certainly looks as if he is at an 'official' engagement or at least sitting for an official portrait. He also sported a notch lapel DJ in the recent official picture taken to mark the Diamond Wedding Anniversary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The shoes are interesting. PTG is wearing Gucci loafers (what a rebel), the lads, Willaim & Harry are wearing black calf lace up business shoes (mercifully, smooth, not brogues), only Charles is wearing evening pumps.

Harry's DB is unbuttoned, Williams is a high close DB that looks great. Randy Andy's closes low, probably got it in the 80s.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

clemsontiger said:


> Ron,
> 
> I'm not talking about the bottom button of the coat but of the vest. It's proper to leave the bottom button of your vest unbuttoned at all times. But according to the pictures that Sator posted it looks that it is or was appropriate to button all three buttons on a low cut vest.


Yes I was referring to the vest, you only have three. Remember why the I imagine the ynbutton rule applies to anything with buttons.

As I read in a post JFK , had bespoke 2b sb jackets that were designed to keep both buttons buttoned. The buttons were even placed strategically to make him look even taller. 
the Prince/King unbuttoned the jacket to begin with...he was fat, so it looked better unbuttoned than being tugged on...are you stretching your button? Yes? buy a larger vest! Are you a king? No? Lose weight.
I know we are talking about a vest and not a jacket, but the theory is the same.

It seems that whether to button or unbutton is not a matter of style or fashion, but rather a matter of the design and fit of the jacket. Do you have a three button vest cut so that the bottom button should left undone or opened? ah...how do you tell...? Try it both ways, which makes you look stronger and more dapper and helps you feel the way you want to feel in the vest?


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

What kind of shoes are a proper alternative to patent leather oxfords or pump with a dinner jacket? I assume that only black balmorals are suitable, but I'd like to get some input.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Capt Ron said:


> As I read in a post JFK , had bespoke 2b sb jackets that were designed to keep both buttons buttoned. The buttons were even placed strategically to make him look even taller.


JFK had the basic dimensions of a catalogue model, 6' 1" and about 170 lbs., which I would guess made him something like a 41L or 42L in OTR terms.

My understanding (can't recall source, sorry) is that one of his major tailoring goals was to have suits that hid, or at least did not draw attention to, the laced-up back brace that he had to wear under his clothing.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

LD111134 said:


> What kind of shoes are a proper alternative to patent leather oxfords or pump with a dinner jacket? I assume that only black balmorals are suitable, but I'd like to get some input.


Black bals with an entirely plain toe, or cap toes without perfing, just a simple seam where the cap is stitched, are IMO quite acceptable with black tie. I have also been known to wear quarter-brogues (the kind of oxford bals with a single row of discreet perfing at the toecap seam) in a pinch without frightening the horses. Smooth calfskin, polished to a smart shine, is the way to go. I'm not a fan of patent leather or of formal pumps.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Brideshead said:


> In the OP the Duke certainly looks as if he is at an 'official' engagement or at least sitting for an official portrait. He also sported a notch lapel DJ in the recent official picture taken to mark the Diamond Wedding Anniversary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the big sartorial sore thumb in this pic is Prince William. His lapels look too small and his tie too big, plus he has a bit of a goony look on his mug and the knees-akimbo, hands-folded-over-crotch pose that he and his brother (or half-brother) are assuming is not a flattering one. Moreover, he's a wearing a chunky metal watch. I'm sure it cost more than I make in several months, but still, it's suboptimal with black tie.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Proper shoes*



LD111134 said:


> What kind of shoes are a proper alternative to patent leather oxfords or pump with a dinner jacket? I assume that only black balmorals are suitable, but I'd like to get some input.


I believe most true sarltorialists will agree with me

A. patent classic Opera Pump with bow
or
B. Patent Balmoral Oxford (no toe cap)
If you are going to deviate from the above, then I would not get any less formal than a patent plain toe Blucher Derby.
Check out the pics I listed earlier in the threads for shoes.

Make sure you get real leather and leather soles or you'll be sorry!


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

Thanks RJC and Ron,

I used to own Brooks Brother patent leather pumps but they they must have been build on a very narrow last because they absolutely killed by flat feet. Now I have a nice pair of black, smooth leather Alfred Sargent balmoral cap toes with a simple toe seam (no brogue) which I intent to wear with black tie until I can find of patent leather shoes at a deep discount.


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Capt Ron said:


> I believe most true sarltorialists will agree with me
> 
> A. patent classic Opera Pump with bow
> or
> ...


Many now feel calf is preferable to paten leather.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

I bought a pair of AE Ritz opera pumps. They look great, but I've only ever worn them once because they brutalized the top of my foot (instep?).

They are still in my closet.

I also have a pair of AE Spencers, which are plain bluchers in patent leather. The are very simple and very comfortable. I realize that a balmoral is more proper, but I feel comfortable with the blucher given how plain in design they are.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> ...What attracts a classy woman is subtle strength.


Um-um (rising tone, nods slightly, indicates agreement with observation) 


Capt Ron said:


> ...a fashion-forward faux pas...


Very nice alliteration. 


Capt Ron said:


> ...it's a tertiary endeavor that is often the charm


I like this phrase. I will put this into my buzzword generator. Thank you.

P.S. -- I have some action items to take care of so I will be switching to weekly notification. So, if you do not hear back from me for a few days, please do not be inordinately concerned.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Orsini said:


> Um-um (rising tone, nods slightly, indicates agreement with observation)
> Very nice alliteration.
> I like this phrase. I will put this into my buzzword generator. Thank you.
> 
> P.S. -- I have some action items to take care of so I will be switching to weekly notification. So, if you do not hear back from me for a few days, please do not be inordinately concerned.


Thank You Sir,
Your depth of literary appreciation is rather impressive. :icon_smile_big:
May you be missed and your return be longed for.


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## okdc (Aug 23, 2007)

*On the proper shirt and vest*

I am getting married in June, and have selected a one button, peak satin lapel tux. My question is on the shirt. I want a turn down collar, but what is the opinion of shirts with a covered plackett (covered buttons)? And pleats? If my buttons are not covered, I will have studs.

The second question is about vests and cummberbunds. I have heard that a vest is best with a peak lapel, but how hard and fast is this rule? Cummberbunds are easier to find, but I really want a double breasted low closing vest. Does anyone know where to find one?

Thanks.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Court shoes.

More about court shoe buckles: https://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/metalware/steel/steel4.htm


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

David V said:


> Many now feel calf is preferable to patent leather.


DAVID V,
Many??? many what ...people or AAAC members?
I think in a pole you would be rather suprised ho wmany people still believe in patent leather.

Think about this:
What makes a dj/tux ensemble different enough to be considered semi/formal?
Satin lapels and bowtie vest/cumberbun, satin stripe on pant. Not too much, you should at least have shoes that truly shine, whether they be factory or hand polished patent.

I used to think patent shoes all looked like cheesy rentals until I wore a pair of real leather uppers and soles (pricey, but worth the effect). 
Wow, they felt great and took on a whole new look to me.

Black-tie is an invitation to look sharp and have a great time. I'd recommend taking full advantage of both opportunities.

I new a marine that could make any leather shoe look like a patent leather and I mean the whole shoe, not just the toe cap. He refused to wear issued plastic clorframs and shined his leather so proudly noone either noticed the difference or dared to point it out.

If one cares enough to learn what is proper, then perhaps one should exercise proper as well as merely learned it.

If you're not willing or unable to acquire a pair of patent leather shoes just for the dj/ tux ensemble that is perfectly fine. Everyone understands that concept. I never pay retail and usually get everything Ebay, but I still acknowledge what is proper in semi/formal wear.

I have 2 notch lapels tailored dj's. They were very much on sale.
I did in IMHO make a mistake and should have opted for at least one of them to be a peake lapel. I was uneducated about the lapel ordeal at the time. 
The same goes with my patent leather plain toe blucher derbies from J&M.
However, I'm not in the financial position to buy a peake jacket and patent balmoral shoe anytime soon, but I still acknowledge that peake lapels and balmoral shoes or pumps are more proper with black tie.

I have also noticed that not all black-tie event are as equally formal and I do live in a fashion vacuum or doldrum as I like to say (Pensacola, FL) where a pure sartorialist would be morally forced to relocate.

Fashion is not always about looking right or wrong, sometimes it's just about looking good!


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

okdc said:


> I am getting married in June, and have selected a one button, peak satin lapel tux. My question is on the shirt. I want a turn down collar, but what is the opinion of shirts with a covered plackett (covered buttons)? And pleats? If my buttons are not covered, I will have studs.
> 
> The second question is about vests and cummberbunds. I have heard that a vest is best with a peak lapel, but how hard and fast is this rule? Cummberbunds are easier to find, but I really want a double breasted low closing vest. Does anyone know where to find one?
> Thanks.


1. Excellent selection on the jacket.
2. Yes turn down collar IMHO always with black tie unless youre a waiter.
3. History:
Studs were used to hide the button holes before tuxedo shirts were made specifically for black-tie.
Main concern is to hide the button holes. I like the covered shirt like 007 wears see earlier pics posted on this thread.

I will argue that down collars are a must, but front bibs, pleats, and shirt material as long as it is white is all a matter of taste and preference and individual style. I have several different shirts for different events, but they are all down collar and all white.

Have fun with your shirt selection or better yet, inform your bride that you have narrowed it down to a white down collar shirt and ask her opinion on what she thinks is most attractive. Remember, (I'm sure you know) it's _her _special day not yours and that's why you're wearing a simple neutrally colored formal uniform and she is going crazy picking out an elaborate unique wedding dress. You're merely there to compliment her beauty, not over shadow it.

Below is a link to a great assortment of tux shirts ranging from $30-$200.00 USD.

As far as db waistcoats/vests, google it or visit the rental shops in your area, find one that fits perfectly or have it tailored until it does. They will often let a piece worn once or twice go very cheap just to keep their cash flow going until prom season.

You will want your vest to be low coat as possible to show off your shirt, yet simply hide your waist pant.
Remember the dj vest is purposely used for the same reason as a cumberbun and doesn't need to be made up of much more material. It should match the satin lapels however if possible.

Please keep us informed as to your purchases and wedding and we want to see pics!

Is it an open bar?


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Bogdanoff said:


> Court shoes.
> 
> More about court shoe buckles: https://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/metalware/steel/steel4.htm


I think were looking at Gucci lofaers there


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

David V said:


> Many now feel calf is preferable to paten leather.


Indeed, my opera pumps are calf. Italian made Cole-Hann from about 15 years ago. Only ones I've seen lately are EG

Those Lobb derbys on the first page are sweet.


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## the etruscan (Mar 9, 2007)

Sator said:


> There was a time parents no more wanted their children to become actors than one would today wish them grow up to be porn stars. What a shame that society now elevates them to the point that one happily discusses them in the same sentence as royalty.


I don't really understand celebrity worship, but actors seem, if anything, more worthy of deification than royalty. At least they do something, royalty just has the right parents.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Literide said:


> I think were looking at Gucci lofaers there


Prove it. Guccis are for chavs.


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## okdc (Aug 23, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> 1. Excellent selection on the jacket.
> 2. Yes turn down collar IMHO always with black tie unless youre a waiter.
> 3. History:
> Studs were used to hide the button holes before tuxedo shirts were made specifically for black-tie.
> ...


Thanks for the tips and I will certainly ask her opinion. I am thinking that if there is a plackett covering the buttons, then a pique, plain front looks best. If pleats, I will go with studs.

There will be an open bar, but not for me. I don't need my mother giving me disapproving looks at my own wedding.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

okdc said:


> The second question is about vests and cummberbunds. I have heard that a vest is best with a peak lapel, but how hard and fast is this rule? Cummberbunds are easier to find, but I really want a double breasted low closing vest. Does anyone know where to find one?
> 
> Thanks.


Key question here is: Budget?

Buckleigh's will custom make you one. They have a double breasted model they can use. BUT...with the pound to dollar exchange rate you're likely looking at $400+ for the vest.

Here's the link. https://www.buckleighs-waistcoats.co.uk/customwaistcoats.html

They don't have a plain black on the website, but if you're interested you should email them directly as I can't imagine that it would be too hard for them to make one in plain black for you.

My only other suggestion is Ebay.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

okdc said:


> There will be an open bar, but not for me. I don't need my mother giving me disapproving looks at my own wedding.


If Prince Charles wasn't already married I'd swear he posted that reply!

No need to be even buzzed on your wedding day, you'll have the rest of your life to maintain that buzz.

Noone ever said, "I wish I drank more on my wedding day!"

I think you should invite the single AAAC members to your reception. 
We''ll show up after the food is served just for the bar :aportnoy:
Imagine how the girls would react when a couple hundred well dressed men showed up at one time.


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## okdc (Aug 23, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> Key question here is: Budget?
> 
> Buckleigh's will custom make you one. They have a double breasted model they can use. BUT...with the pound to dollar exchange rate you're likely looking at $400+ for the vest.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, I do not have that kind of budget, but thank you for the help. I was hoping to not spend more than a hundred dollars, as I got the tux for a great deal.


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## DonV (Apr 2, 2006)

Well, this thread gives me the opportunity to mention that I just snagged a pair of formal pumps off eBay. They arrived today -- Ferragamo, size 11B. Patent with a grosgrain bow. A bit of creasing, but it is nearly under the bow and it's not very noticeable when I'm wearing them. The best part is I only paid $25 + shipping. My goal is to slowly assemble a black tie rig by next New Year's.


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## Reynolds (Jan 9, 2008)

okdc said:


> I am getting married in June, and have selected a one button, peak satin lapel tux. My question is on the shirt. I want a turn down collar, but what is the opinion of shirts with a covered plackett (covered buttons)? And pleats? If my buttons are not covered, I will have studs.
> 
> The second question is about vests and cummberbunds. I have heard that a vest is best with a peak lapel, but how hard and fast is this rule? Cummberbunds are easier to find, but I really want a double breasted low closing vest. Does anyone know where to find one?
> 
> Thanks.


Congratulations on your engagement and wedding.

I read your post and I had to check to see if I wrote it. I am in the *exact* situation as you, but getting married in May. I too have chosen a one button, peak lapel, turn down collar and I am not sure about the shirt choice so far also. I like the pique look, its very clean. I am undecided on the covered plackett. I am having a local men's store look in to some options for me and hopefully that will narrow it down.

Your second question is great and I am glad you asked it. I too have heard vests with peak lapel and really I do not like the way a cummerbund feels. I have been trying to find vest options too with little luck. The Buckleigh's solution would be great if it were in dollars instead of the price X 2. I did see on the Buckleigh's site that a waistcoat would be best with a wing collar. I am having a tough time identifying what is rule vs. option. It has been great learning about all of these things however confusing they are.

Let me know how your planning goes.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Reynolds said:


> .
> 
> I do not like the way a cummerbund feels.


+1

I can't stand to wear one, so it's always a vest for me; or, with one of my DB tuxes, no "extra" layer around the waist or over the torso at all, perhaps the most comfortable option of the several.


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## okdc (Aug 23, 2007)

I am going to see what I can do about the vest and will try to get photos for the event. I recently won a free suit from Nordstrom and it came out perfect. I wanted to continue to give them business because of the wonderful service I experienced, but they only had a turn down collar with pleats (which I may go with, plus studs, as I am sure that it will look classic and I won't regret it later). However, there is a custom shirt maker that could make me two formal shirts for only a little bit more than one from Nordstrom. I could then just have both styles I have been thinking about, but how do you decide to go with the better deal over loyalty?


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Which is more Black-Tie proper...Vest or Cummerbun?*

My Black-Tie brothers,

I have been researching black-tie for some time now (winters are slow for me) and I have been keeping track of what I believe IMHO to be definitive black-tie and preferential black-tie fashions.

I have based these decisions on historical pictures, internationally recognized authors of dress code, examples of Royals, experienced forum members, and least of all my own personal experiences and tastes for uniforms.

I write these posts because I have time (keeps me from getting cabin fever) and I enjoy learning and teaching, especially for those guys who care to know, but don't have the time to invest in research.

My .02 cents on vests vs. cummerbun with BT.

I have found no literature that suggests that one is more proper that the other in black-tie.

Consideration: white pique vest is part of the truly formal white-tie uniform

Consideration: Black-tie was started for informal dinners in the UK, and men's dinnners at the tuxedo club without ladies present.

Consideration: The more comfortable and affordable Black-tie (originally a semi-formal uniform) replaced white-tie as "formal dress" for most, but not all formal occasions in the USA.

Consideration: One might logically conclude that a proper low cut 3-button vest may be considered more formal and certainly more expensive and possibly less comfortable than a cummerbun.

Consideration: Not all BT events are on the same level of formality.

Examples of BTE in most to least formal: 
BTEvents that are political national or local, BTE Charity Ball, BT Wedding, Opening Night Opera, Symphony, BT Public Dining, BT Residence Dining.
Festive/Creative BTE such as Mardis Gras celebrations are in a group of their own.

Consideration: A vest will hide your white suspenders/ braces, in case for some reason you committ the "horrific" act of removing your uniform dj. IMHO, your braces (considered underwear and not to be seen) are truly not an option for any occasion that you dont want your pants to look like they are falling off, especially when you're dancing.. "Pants were designed to he supported by the shoulders, not the waist". Braces are also the only true way to keep your pant break exactly in it's place and they're great for guys like myself who suffer from "noassatal" and most women really find suspenders with black-tie especially sexy, just ask 007.

Definitive Black-Tie uniform:

Option 1: Black silk Sash or Black silk Cummerbun, four pleat, w/ matching bow-tie

Option 2: Black matching (color & fabric) low cut (to show off shirt) 3-button vest. Extra points if vest has matching satin lapel trim/ grosgrain trim.
Vest option a. full back vest (warmer)
Vest option b. Back strap vest (cooler) and cost less.


*Cummerbund History from Wikpedia*​
A *cummerbund* is a broad waist sash, usually pleated, which is often worn with black tie. The cummerbund was first adopted by British military officers in colonial India and later spread to civilian use. The modern day use of the cummerbund is as an elegant fashion accessory to complement the wearing of a dinner jacket during formal evening occasions.
The name comes from the Persian for _waist restraint_ (_kamar_ "waist" and _band_ "to close") and was borrowed into English from the Hindi word meaning "loinband" in 1616. The word "cummerband" (see below), and less commonly the German spelling "kummerbund", are often used synonymously with "cummerbund" in English. The word is also quite commonly misspelled and mispronounced as "cumberbun".
Cummerbunds were traditionally worn with pleats facing up in order to hold ticket stubs and similar items. These days however such a fact is purely academic as cummerbunds are now a mere decoration to a gentleman's black tie attire.
Additionally the cummerbund is commonly used to accommodate the expanding girth of gentlemen during a large meal.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Your purchase conundrum*



okdc said:


> . I could then just have both styles I have been thinking about, but how do you decide to go with the better deal over loyalty?


Possible considerations before you decise to buy
Who needs your money more?
Who is more likely to go out of business?
Where will your spending provide the greatest economic impact?
Who do you think would give you more loyalty in return?
and perhaps most importantly, who will give you the product you most want?

Please let us know what you decided!


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Having re-read your post several times I'm having difficulty understanding your conclusions here, so forgive me if I've mis-interpreted it. Are you saying that Options #1 & #2 are the only definitive options? If so, I must heartily disagree.

You also seem to be ruling out the white vest since it is part of the "white tie uniform", but I'd point out (1) several components are interchangeable, and (2) as pointed out at www.blacktieguide.com several sources, including Emily Post, considered white actually preferable over black as a vest color right up until the 1960's. At one time a white vest was considered more formal, but then they came to be viewed as equally formal.

The term "black tie" covers a wide area and there are lots of components that don't get covered in your post such as white dinner and tartan dinner jackets, smoking jackets, distinctive cummerbunds, etc. all of which have long been long accepted as part of the "definitive black tie" wardrobe.

I think that the best resource I've seen on this is www.blacktieguide.com (created and maintained by a member of this community). It is well researched and sticks to the classic style. I find it doesn't lead folks too far from the established path, but does a really good job in being comprehensive and doesn't rule out options unnecessarily.

Hard for me to not call this classic (or "definitive") black tie for formal situations even thought it isn't one of your two options:


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> Having re-read your post several times I'm having difficulty understanding your conclusions here, so forgive me if I've mis-interpreted it. Are you saying that Options #1 & #2 are the only definitive options? If so, I must heartily disagree.
> 
> You also seem to be ruling out the white vest since it is part of the "white tie uniform", but I'd point out (1) several components are interchangeable, and (2) as pointed out at www.blacktieguide.com several sources, including Emily Post, considered white actually preferable over black as a vest color right up until the 1960's. At one time a white vest was considered more formal, but then they came to be viewed as equally formal.
> 
> ...


You bring up very good points.
One may always deviate from tradition if you can look good doing it.
I do believe however, that person's status is a big part of whether a sartorial "deviation" is considered fashionable or faux-pas. The "wrong" person can turn an otherwise great look into a tradgedy. 
Clothing and personality go hand in hand and must be matched perfectly to achieve the proper outcome.
I must agree to disagree, that wing collar (especially non-detachable) is absolutley wrong with black tie (unless youre a waiter) on the same level as wearing a long black neck-tie would be.
IMHO, white vest, simply looks out of uniforn to me without white-tie, even more so boasting contrasting colored buttons.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> You bring up very good points.
> One may always deviate from tradition if you can look good doing it.


You seem to be implying that anything other than your two options is a deviation from tradition. If so I again disagree.



Capt Ron said:


> IMHO, white vest, simply looks out of uniforn to me without white-tie, even more so boasting contrasting colored buttons.


Fair enough, but the fact that you don't like it makes it neither wrong, untraditional nor unstylish. It simply means you don't like it. I have difficulty accepting that as a proper definition for "definitive". EDIT: It also means that Flusser, Antongiovanni and other established experts on the subject are wrong, since they accept the white vest as an established, traditional option in black tie.


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## Reynolds (Jan 9, 2008)

I am trying to figure out what I will be going with for my wedding, a white waistcoat (siding with Mark from Plano) or a black one (Capt Ron's side). In my head I want to wear a white waistcoat, but there is something about the look that causes me to worry that it may be...I don't know...'off' ? But I also can't imagine the black waistcoat in my head. 

I would love to see some photos with both so I could decide and I have looked at the BlackTieGuide.com and I am still searching for a good example of both. The picture Mark posted is maybe the best example of a white vest I can remember and I would like to see more and also some with black. 

Maybe if we could find good pictures of both either in the forum or online any person reading can decide what they think looks best.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

I do not think that cummerbunds are more comfortable than vests/waistcoats. I constantly have to adjust a cummerbund.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Reynolds said:


> I am trying to figure out what I will be going with for my wedding, a white waistcoat (siding with Mark from Plano) or a black one (Capt Ron's side). In my head I want to wear a white waistcoat, but there is something about the look that causes me to worry that it may be...I don't know...'off' ? But I also can't imagine the black waistcoat in my head.
> 
> I would love to see some photos with both so I could decide and I have looked at the BlackTieGuide.com and I am still searching for a good example of both. The picture Mark posted is maybe the best example of a white vest I can remember and I would like to see more and also some with black.
> 
> Maybe if we could find good pictures of both either in the forum or online any person reading can decide what they think looks best.


Just to be clear. I'm not "advocating" for the white vest. I'm simply advocating against any definition of "definitive" black tie that excludes it. It is not often seen and that makes some uncomfortable with it. However, nearly every "definitive" classic source I've found lists it as an option.

Nicolas Antongiovanni, author of "The Suit" (who used to post here under the name Manton until politics and bookwriting got in the way) says "The sharpest black tie outfit a man can wear is a single breasted peaked coat, a white vest (identical to the one worn with white tie), wing collar shirt (ditto) and black bow tie."

It would be unfortunate indeed if you were to get married and not read his article on Wedding Attire and follow it to a tee.

Congratulations on your wedding!

EDIT: The practical problem with wearing the white waistcoat is that you can't go half way. If you're going to wear it, it needs to be with a detachable stiff collar pique fronted shirt (identical to white tie) and those are typically expensive and difficult to find (Brooks has one on its website for about $225 or occassionally $175 on sale). No turndown collar shirts with a white vest and no attached wing collar shirts either. It's all or nothing with this look. It also won't look right with a notch lapel or shawl collar tux jacket. Only a peak lapel will do.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Reynolds said:


> Maybe if we could find good pictures of both either in the forum or online any person reading can decide what they think looks best.


This is a poor example perhaps especiallys since you can't see the black vest very well, but I posted my picture wearing both in this thread:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=684008&postcount=1


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Capt Ron has strong opinions, many of which I don't agree with.

But I repeat myself.


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## tsherry (Dec 30, 2005)

*BB low cut vest*

Mark, you and your wife look great! Thanks for sharing those pictures.

What size are you and what size Brooks Brothers backless 3-button black vest do you have? I tried one on yesterday marked "large 46-52" that was very large for me in the body and ridiculously short. I'm 6' 1" , 205 # and wear a 46L.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

tsherry said:


> Mark, you and your wife look great! Thanks for sharing those pictures.
> 
> What size are you and what size Brooks Brothers backless 3-button black vest do you have? I tried one on yesterday marked "large 46-52" that was very large for me in the body and ridiculously short. I'm 6' 1" , 205 # and wear a 46L.


Those sizing options seem odd to me. I thought that large was 40-44 (that would be the answer I would have given, so I guess I'll have to check tonight and get back to you). Are you sure that the one you tried on wasn't an XL? I'm 6'0 195# and 42L, by the way. Anyway, two or three comments.

1. The backless vests are highly adjustable. There are three buttons on the top that can adjust the length. I have mine set on the second button. There is a strap in the back that can be taken in to adjust the girth to match your own. :icon_smile_wink: I tend to like mine tightened up pretty good.
2. The vest will be cut very short because it is meant to be worn with tuxedo trousers which are typically cut very high-waisted. If you go in and try it on with your standard trousers it will seem very short, but will work better with higher-waisted tux trousers. However, if your tux trousers are lower waisted it will pose a problem. If you try one on again, it might make sense to take your tux trousers and braces in with you to try on the vest.
3. The BB vest has a button tab at the bottom. Have your tailor sew a button on the inside waistband of your tux trousers (right in the center) and you can button the vest to the trousers to keep it from gapping.

Hope that helps.


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## tsherry (Dec 30, 2005)

Thanks for the quick answer, Mark. I didn't think to check what button the neck adjuster was on. That would indeed account for some length. Tux trousers already have a button that I have used to keep my cummerbund from riding up. Also, you're correct that it would make more sense to try the vest on with the tux pants instead of casual pants (although I have gained enough weight recently so that the tux pants don't need braces). 

There is a great looking Purple Label grosgrain vest on sale on the Polo site, but alas, only smaller sizes. Worth checking out for the poster above who is getting married.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> You seem to be implying that anything other than your two options is a deviation from tradition. If so I again disagree.
> Fair enough, but the fact that you don't like it makes it neither wrong, untraditional nor unstylish. It simply means you don't like it. I have difficulty accepting that as a proper definition for "definitive". EDIT: It also means that Flusser, Antongiovanni and other established experts on the subject are wrong, since they accept the white vest as an established, traditional option in black tie.


Mark, 
In some degree you are correct about right and wrong when it comes to dress.
For example: US Army Airborne units wear jump boots with the Class A's9dress uniform) with the trousers tucked into the boots ("bloused" actually, but you get the idea.) 
Odd look for a formal dress uniform, but it's "right" because it's prescribed.
If any old joe like me or you showed up with our tux pant legs shoved inside our patent leather boots at the opera, surely we would be "wrong", drunk, or insane.

Black tie is a Royal inspired less formal and costly version of the white-tie dress. 
The white-tie is the civilian formal uniform version of military formal dress. The origination or formal dress comes from the military and of course Royalty which in the past have often been the same in many cases. 
The key word is uniform. Regardless of what so called fashion "experts" driven mainly by economics rather than fashion might prescribe, uniformity is what gives formal dress its allure and power. 
Sure, even military uniforms are constantly changing, but notice the formal dress uniform always changes the least over time if at all.

I believe one has to make the decision to which school of thought one will graduate from. Traditional (uniformity) or Non-Traditional (individualistic).
It's obvious which school will provide greater preservation. and that to me is the most important aspect.

I prefer uniformity so that individuality must be expressed from the _soul_ rather than the _sole_. There will always be some expression of the soul through dress, but if we take it too far, it then becomes about the clothes and not the person.
Japanese have a great long history and culture preserved very well because it's their belief to hammer down the nail that sticks out. That philosophy doesn't stop the Japanes from becoming brilliant inventors, it only emplores a deeper sense of tradition and honor.

I'm a military man and scuba instructor, so anyone can imagine how important uniformity is to me not just for fashion's sake, but for life's sake as well. I'm by no means a stuffy person, but I believe in boundaries, especially for people like myself that would push everything too far if it were not for rules, regulations and expectations.

Funny thing is, I didn't appreciate or share this philosophy when I was in my twenties.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> EDIT: The practical problem with wearing the white waistcoat is that you can't go half way. If you're going to wear it, it needs to be with a detachable stiff collar pique fronted shirt (identical to white tie) and those are typically expensive and difficult to find (Brooks has one on its website for about $225 or occassionally $175 on sale). No turndown collar shirts with a white vest and no attached wing collar shirts either. It's all or nothing with this look. It also won't look right with a notch lapel or shawl collar tux jacket. Only a peak lapel will do.


Ah..so you do believe in right and wrong.............you consider "going half-way" as a euphimism for wrong :idea::teacha::aportnoy:!


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> This is a poor example perhaps especiallys since you can't see the black vest very well, but I posted my picture wearing both in this thread:
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=684008&postcount=1


I'm not going to comment on your attire other than you look clean, neat, comfortable, and happy:icon_smile_big:

The vizable vest IMHO, does make it look more formal than a cummerbun.

It's always more difficult to find fault with a man when he has a beautiful lady on his arm.:aportnoy:

Don't mind me, I'm still bitter about the shoes!


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Sorry Ron, I'm having real difficulty following your train of thought here. I think that we are disagreeing only on the boundries. When it comes to black tie I am a strict traditionalist. No long ties for me. No colored bow-ties. No Budweiser cummerbunds. I won't even wear a notch lapelled tuxedo. I don't disagree at all with your values on black tie only with your facts.

With white-tie, I agree there is almost no deviation. With black tie there is more deviation, but within limits. My only question is: "What are the limits?" You've set them in a certain place and have cited no authority other than saying "I don't like it". I have cited four authorities for the contrary position, all authors of books and established experts on the subject and you've dismissed them as "fashion experts driven mainly by economics" even though three of the four are not in the fashion business other than as commentators on it.

I think I'm finished posting on this thread because I can't see that it's getting us anywhere.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> Ah..so you do believe in right and wrong.............you consider "going half-way" as a euphimism for wrong :idea::teacha::aportnoy:!


I think you've completely misunderstood my position. I never said there weren't rules, only that you've got them wrong.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Capt Ron said:


> Mark,
> 
> If any old joe like me or you showed up with our tux pant legs shoved inside our patent leather boots at the opera, surely we would be "wrong", drunk, or insane.


Ah, but don't try to tell that to this Forumite:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=68034

:icon_smile_wink:


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> I think I'm finished posting on this thread because I can't see that it's getting us anywhere.


Mark,

You can't leave this thread, it won't let you. Don't upset the thread Mark.

Threads don't need to go anywhere but forward. I believe it's going forward. We have covered much ground and the photos really have been great examples of what to go by or don't go by. 
Besides, it be nice to have your opinions on the formal shirts I have yet to post. I found a great selection to choose from.

I'm attending the opening night of Mozart's Magic Flute on Friday and a charity ball on Saturday, I really wanted those grosgrain bow patent pumps...lol


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Too funny....you can't make that stuff up!*



PJC in NoVa said:


> Ah, but don't try to tell that to this Forumite:
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=68034
> 
> :icon_smile_wink:


OMG, that is too funny!
Just goes to show what incredible sartorial diversity is on this forum.
I love it!
Thanks, I needed that.


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## Reynolds (Jan 9, 2008)

What is proper when wearing a tuxedo, should the jacket always buttoned, never buttoned, or a mixture?


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Reynolds said:


> What is proper when wearing a tuxedo, should the jacket always buttoned, never buttoned, or a mixture?


Same as with a suit. If you're wearing a waist covering (vest or cummerbund) then it can be worn either open or closed when standing and open when sitting. If no waist covering (which should never happen with black tie) then closed when standing, open when sitting.

Double breasted is always worn closed no matter what.

EDIT: Generally I wear mine open with a vest and closed with a cummerbund. But that's just me.


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

*NYE*

Well, this is the black-tie outfit I had on this past NYE. I had my friend take photos before we left. No post party photos since there was a lot of champagne consumed (it was sponsored by Taittinger, so there was a champagne pairing with every course... and too many glasses during the reception before and dancing after). There are a few personal styling touches I went with, like the fly front shirt from H&H with detachable wing collar and the 3-button vest. And it helps to have someone around to help with that collar stud, especially a girl with fingernails.

The sleeves are a little bit long without the jacket, since I had H&H make the shirt using my measurements they had on file, and I get my shirts made with the sleeves a little long to make sure I will always have cuff showing, even with my OTR Short suits -- easier to shorten the shirt sleeves for my MTM suits. The jacket and trousers are a SB peak lapel midnight blue Brioni with 3 button vest and single pleated trousers. I also have Thurston moire white braces with nickel hardware and Ferragamo patent leather pumps with bow.

Pick away, pick away, gents. :icon_smile_big:

https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000445040010516184https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000440271744035215https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000414759448350189https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000424097219856930https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000408610228025648
https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000455047032895659https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000449683176276711https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000449506022846814


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Very nice. I like the U shape to the vest. Just right. I wish my monitor could detect the color, it just looks black and I can't resolve the lapels on the jacket.

The fly front with the detachable collar is interesting. I haven't seen that combo before. I personally like studs on my shirt, but know that a lot of guys like the fly front better.

Very well played, sir.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*I hate to agree, but I must.*



Mark from Plano said:


> Same as with a suit. If you're wearing a waist covering (vest or cummerbund) then it can be worn either open or closed when standing and open when sitting. If no waist covering (which should never happen with black tie) then closed when standing, open when sitting.
> 
> Double breasted is always worn closed no matter what.
> 
> EDIT: Generally I wear mine open with a vest and closed with a cummerbund. But that's just me.


If another opinion helps I must concurr,
Especially... never go waist uncovered. I can't stress how important it is to use a cummerbun or a vest in black tie. 
007 did it only because he was a new agent, young and dumb and the director lacked taste.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Roikins said:


> Well, this is the black-tie outfit I had on this past NYE. I had my friend take photos before we left. No post party photos since there was a lot of champagne consumed (it was sponsored by Taittinger, so there was a champagne pairing with every course... and too many glasses during the reception before and dancing after). There are a few personal styling touches I went with, like the fly front shirt from H&H with detachable wing collar and the 3-button vest. And it helps to have someone around to help with that collar stud, especially a girl with fingernails.
> 
> The sleeves are a little bit long without the jacket, since I had H&H make the shirt using my measurements they had on file, and I get my shirts made with the sleeves a little long to make sure I will always have cuff showing, even with my OTR Short suits -- easier to shorten the shirt sleeves for my MTM suits. The jacket and trousers are a SB peak lapel midnight blue Brioni with 3 button vest and single pleated trousers. I also have Thurston moire white braces with nickel hardware and Ferragamo patent leather pumps with bow.
> 
> ...


Well it appears you certainly didn't spare any expense!
I too especially like the vest. It really shows off the shirt while simply covering the waist.

I have no experience with detachable collars, how did it feel?

Were the shoes comfortable?

What would you have changed sartorial wise?

Are the plants pleated?
I started with pleated, went to flat front and even my male friend thought I lost 20lbs! There was just more room than I needed in the pants.

Mind if I ask height and jacket size?


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## Reynolds (Jan 9, 2008)

Roikins said:


> Well, this is the black-tie outfit I had on this past NYE.
> 
> https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000445040010516184https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000440271744035215https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000414759448350189https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000424097219856930https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000408610228025648
> https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000455047032895659https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000449683176276711https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000449506022846814


Very sharp indeed. Great photo progression too.

Can you tell me where you got the vest? Smashing.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Gentlemen...

...*those* are socks!


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## cut76 (Dec 29, 2007)

Roikins said:


> https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000445040010516184https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000440271744035215https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000414759448350189https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000424097219856930https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000408610228025648
> https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000455047032895659https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000449683176276711https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000449506022846814


That looks great. Love the waistcoat. I can't tell from the pic - does it have lapels or not?


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> Very nice. I like the U shape to the vest. Just right. I wish my monitor could detect the color, it just looks black and I can't resolve the lapels on the jacket.
> 
> The fly front with the detachable collar is interesting. I haven't seen that combo before. I personally like studs on my shirt, but know that a lot of guys like the fly front better.
> 
> Very well played, sir.


Yeah, I noticed after posting that the blacks are really dark, so you can't see the peaks on the jacket. I guess that lends some credence to the fact that midnight blue can appear black. I'll take closer up photos when I'm home from work later, because there's a little pin-dotting on the fabric as well that's extremely subtle unless you're 6" from the fabric.

The fly front is new to me as well. I have another formal shirt with a pleated front that takes studs which I've been using up until now. It's sort of fun having the option for either in my closet, and also having the additional option to get a detachable turndown collar for the fly front shirt.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Roikins said:


> The fly front is new to me as well. I have another formal shirt with a pleated front that takes studs which I've been using up until now. It's sort of fun having the option for either in my closet, and also having the additional option to get a detachable turndown collar for the fly front shirt.


Wing Schming!
Show us a turn down detachable collar please oh please! Stop teasing me with the wing.
That is a "bad-ass" option, especially if the shirt is tailored to you as well.

Please tell us about the laundering and ironing.
How does the wing collar feel?
I have a shorter neck than most, I believe it would irritate my beard just a bit.

Is it an OTR Brioni suit or mtm?


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Knock your socks off...*



Orsini said:


> Gentlemen...
> 
> ...*those* are socks!


Orsini,
Are those slippers one could fashionably wear during a BTE in one's own home? Certainly not outside of one's own home correct?

Socks with diamonds. Should they not be a bit darker for black-tie or does the contrast allow for the visual appreciation of one more clothing item?
Socks are truly a black-tie definitive, should they not receive their own applause?


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> Well it appears you certainly didn't spare any expense!
> I too especially like the vest. It really shows off the shirt while simply covering the waist.
> 
> I have no experience with detachable collars, how did it feel?
> ...


That's actually one of the reasons I picked out that vest style -- that unique U shape that wouldn't be seen peeking out from under the jacket, but would cover the waistband.

The collar wasn't a problem at all. At first it was odd when I would tilt my neck to one side to feel what I could only describe as a cardboard tube hitting it, but with a little adjustment to the collar (pivoting it a bit around the studs to make it tighter around the neck), I didn't really notice it -- just like any other collar.

The shoes when I first got them were a little tight, but after a few wearings, they got more comfortable, and by the time I wore them for NYE, they fit a little loose and were nice enough to walk and dance in.

Sartorial changes... probably to get a little crazy with the "hidden" items. I like the traditional black-tie look on the outside, but I would like to play around more with interesting socks or braces -- after all, those should never be seen anyway. I'd consider going with highly polished calf opera pumps as an option as well. Then there's playing with the pocket square color/fold style and the boutonniere. I only get a chance to wear BT 2-3 times/year, so it's been tough working in and experimenting with little style changes, unlike with your traditional "everyday" suit. Like with all things, I decided to stick with the safe and traditional rules at first, slowly adjusting and adding personal style touches along the way which may break some of the rules. :icon_smile_wink:

The pants are single pleated, and I probably would have gone with flat front these days since I was about 20 pounds heavier when I got the outfit and needed the pleats.

The jacket was a 42S that underwent some slight alteration since I'm only 5'6".


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## tsherry (Dec 30, 2005)

Roikins, may I ask where you picked up the waistcoat?


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Reynolds said:


> Very sharp indeed. Great photo progression too.
> 
> Can you tell me where you got the vest? Smashing.


The vest is actually Brioni too. If you get to a shop with Brioni MTM and flip through their book it's formal waistcoat style "No. 2" according to the label. It's sort of unusual and definitely one of the personal style choices I went with that might not be considered "traditional" as it does not have any lapels. It has a full back with black MOP buttons (at least I think they're MOP... haven't done the cold cheek test to make sure :icon_smile.


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

cut76 said:


> That looks great. Love the waistcoat. I can't tell from the pic - does it have lapels or not?


The wasitcost... does not. :devil:


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> Wing Schming!
> Show us a turn down detachable collar please oh please! Stop teasing me with the wing.
> That is a "bad-ass" option, especially if the shirt is tailored to you as well.
> 
> ...


Heh, the problem with the detachable turndown is that I have to order it with other H&H shirts since I can't justify the shipping costs of the collar alone from England -- more than the collar itself. So, I probably won't have photos of such a creature until spring.

Well, I have a pretty short neck, and I don't really feel the wings as much as I'd feel the bow tie brushing the underside of my chin when I'd look down at my plate. I haven't had a chance to launder the collar yet, but I plan on heading to my local Catholic church to inquire where they have their collars washed and starched. The other option is for me to order a few collars, wing and turndown, to make shipping worthwhile and give me a "disposable" collar option if I can't find a good place to launder them or if the cost would be more than a new collar.

And the suit was an OTR.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Roikins said:


> Heh, the problem with the detachable turndown is that I have to order it with other H&H shirts since I can't justify the shipping costs of the collar alone from England -- more than the collar itself. So, I probably won't have photos of such a creature until spring.
> 
> Well, I have a pretty short neck, and I don't really feel the wings as much as I'd feel the bow tie brushing the underside of my chin when I'd look down at my plate. I haven't had a chance to launder the collar yet, but I plan on heading to my local Catholic church to inquire where they have their collars washed and starched. The other option is for me to order a few collars, wing and turndown, to make shipping worthwhile and give me a "disposable" collar option if I can't find a good place to launder them or if the cost would be more than a new collar.
> 
> And the suit was an OTR.


You've hit on the two MAJOR problems for detachable collars in the states:
1. Acquiring them. I have a few, one that came on my shirt and the others that I ordered online from England. And, as you say, the shipping is more than the collars.
2. Laundering them. Hardly any commercial laundries will touch them and I don't iron (much). I have located one laundry in Dallas that I'm going to try out. Some on these boards view them as basically disposable items, buy a few and when they need laundering throw them away and buy more.

My question to board members is can you get more than one wearing from your detachable collars? Does it make a difference whether they're formal wing collars or turndown collars?

I've worn my formal wing collars a few times now (but not the same one twice) and it seems to me I could squeeze multiple wearings out of them, though I haven't tried it. Any input here?


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> ...Are those slippers one could fashionably wear during a BTE in one's own home? Certainly not outside of one's own home correct?...


For the answer, see Manton's article on "" over at the London Lounge:

Along with some very good information, it also has some very nice pictures. Unfortunately, some of them seem to have disappeared from the image hosting site. Too bad...


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> My question to board members is can you get more than one wearing from your detachable collars? Does it make a difference whether they're formal wing collars or turndown collars?


I agree that after the first one or two wearings, the collar doesn't "feel" the same, but it's still pretty stiff. Also, since the collar I have doesn't really hug my neck as much as a regular soft collar, it doesn't seem to get too dirty from sweat. I suppose that's one of the benefits of not having a lot of BT events to attend -- you don't wear the collar too often. Should I order a a decent amount of collars down the road, I might experiment with self-washing and starching on a few of the wilted and dirty collars -- almost seems like one needs a roller pin to get the collar curved correctly.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> You've hit on the two MAJOR problems for detachable collars in the states:
> 
> My question to board members is can you get more than one wearing from your detachable collars? Does it make a difference whether they're formal wing collars or turndown collars?
> 
> I've worn my formal wing collars a few times now (but not the same one twice) and it seems to me I could squeeze multiple wearings out of them, though I haven't tried it. Any input here?


I learned this from being on a ship in the Navy and having to keep my dress whites white and away from ship's laundry.

1. scrub your neck very good with a loofa sponge or glove. Get as much dead skin off as possible.

2. apply a small amount of clear pure anti-perspirent (nothing with deoderant) around your neck.

3. cover the rest of your upper body in baby powder and wear a short sleeved crew neck t-shirt.

I even switched my drink from vodka cranberry to vodka soda to avoid accidental staining as well. Now, if people would only stop drinking red wine during formal events...


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> I learned this from being on a ship in the Navy and having to keep my dress whites white and away from ship's laundry.
> 
> 1. scrub your neck very good with a loofa sponge or glove. Get as much dead skin off as possible.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips, but the issue isn't so much staining. As someone said the collar stands away from your neck and at most events you're only there a few hours so it's not like it gathers lots grime. The issue is with the collar itself. The nature of it is that it needs a slight shine to it from the starch and pressing and a stiffness to work right. My question to those that wear stiff collars a lot is whether this can be maintained for more than one wearing (I think perhaps it can) or am I fooling myself and I need to launder after after every use.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Roikins said:


> The pants are single pleated, and I probably would have gone with flat front these days since I was about 20 pounds heavier when I got the outfit and needed the pleats.
> 
> The jacket was a 42S that underwent some slight alteration since I'm only 5'6".


Congratulations on the weight loss. I'm in a constant battle with mine. Some day I hope to be a true 36" waist with 48" chest. I'm still faced with a 10" drop, but I'll have to endure.

My look and feel changed so much when I switched to flat fronts that I looked like I lost 20 lbs and felt 10 years younger. The flat front satin striped worsted wool pants I bought from a rental shop matched my JABa coat perfectly and it was only $60 perfectly hemmed. I was informed all the fabric makers use the same exact black dye color for all worsted wool dj pants regardless of the quality of the wool. From what I have seen so far, I'm convinced and I have pretty good color vision for a man.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*I have a business plan.....*



Mark from Plano said:


> Thanks for the tips, but the issue isn't so much staining. As someone said the collar stands away from your neck and at most events you're only there a few hours so it's not like it gathers lots grime. The issue is with the collar itself. The nature of it is that it needs a slight shine to it from the starch and pressing and a stiffness to work right. My question to those that wear stiff collars a lot is whether this can be maintained for more than one wearing (I think perhaps it can) or am I fooling myself and I need to launder after after every use.


From what I have read it is difficult to get detach collars in the USa without getting gouged on shipping. 
Why doesn't someone here start "UK in the USA" and buy in bulk. Open a little website and sell them here. Is there not enough market forr them?

Or maybe Andy can gather a large order for everybody here on the forum?

Too much effort?

Perhaps one of our British friends could buy direct andship them to the USA much cheaper and in bulk.......
Sound like a pole is needed.
I havent learned how to do a pole, but I' ask soemthign like this.

If you had a chance to order detachable collars from the UK,
How many would you be interested in buying. please pick an amount. 
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 etc...

Alex doesnt have these collars?


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> Very nice. I like the U shape to the vest. Just right. I wish my monitor could detect the color, it just looks black and I can't resolve the lapels on the jacket.


Here are extra photos of the peaks on my jacket:
https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002485880927988808 https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002466962156768346

A close up of the midnight blue fabric which has little black pindots: 
https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002449400466620472

And some shots of the vest that I found on a DVD with back-ups of my photos:
https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002443030855896333 https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002495116077007154 https://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002448404821280465


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Humble opinions on this formal shoe please*

Below is a shoe I found for $119.00 USD


*Product Features: *
Features include:
Genuine patent leather upper material, Anatomical Gel Construction with exclusive sole technology for ultimate comfort., leather soles for longlasting wear, made in Spain​


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Capt Ron said:


> Below is a shoe I found for $119.00 USD
> 
> 
> *Product Features: *
> ...


They would go real well with a 3 button jacket with pocket flaps and a long tie


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Capt Ron said:


> Orsini,
> Are those slippers one could fashionably wear during a BTE in one's own home? Certainly not outside of one's own home correct?
> 
> Socks with diamonds. Should they not be a bit darker for black-tie or does the contrast allow for the visual appreciation of one more clothing item?
> Socks are truly a black-tie definitive, should they not receive their own applause?


Why wouldnt you wear them out? Look like appropriate evening pumps to me.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

Capt Ron said:


> Below is a shoe I found for $119.00 USD
> 
> 
> *Product Features: *
> ...


I think they're awful.

The sole on a dress shoe should be leather.

Formal shoes are dress shoes.

Ergo, the sole on a formal shoe should be leather.

Also, the penny loafer strap thing in place of a grosgrain bow is grim.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Literide said:


> Why wouldnt you wear them out? Look like appropriate evening pumps to me.


I was thinking the outside would ruin them and they looked like they didnt offer much support for walking.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> I think they're awful.
> 
> The sole on a dress shoe should be leather.
> 
> ...


The sole is leather. I would only have a leather sole, the heel is rubber of course.

I thought is was a nice masculine compromise between a balmoral and a bow pump.
I know the bow is most appropriate, but it's just a bit too much flare for me.

Gentlemen, Thanks for not holding back with your opinions. I appreciate your honesty.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Capt Ron said:


> From what I have read it is difficult to get detach collars in the USa without getting gouged on shipping.
> Why doesn't someone here start "UK in the USA" and buy in bulk. Open a little website and sell them here. Is there not enough market forr them?
> 
> Or maybe Andy can gather a large order for everybody here on the forum?
> ...


Quality detachable collars are made by one company in England, called Luke Eyres. There seems to be a small amount of demand from individual enthusiasts of various kinds, and probably some generated by the needs of theatrical costuming, but a critical factor also appears to be that (some?) British lawyers still wear detachable collars as a standard part of their dress for court appearances. Without that last factor, I wonder if would be made at all except perhaps as specialty items for costumers.

PS: I forgot to mention that Britain is also a country where getting married in formal daywear remains a fairly popular custom, and this too can generate demand for detachable collars. Likewise the use of such daywear by some attendees at certain prominent non-nuptial social events such as Royal Ascot. Still, if one small company can satisfy the aggregate demand of enthusiasts, actors, lawyers, and men dressing formally for daytime weddings or horse races, then I would assume that such demand cannot be all that large. In the US, I suspect it is even more exiguous, hence the intense difficulty of finding a laundry that will even consider handling the cleaning of these mysterious neck enwrapments.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*Noone here in the USA stocks these collars from this co.?*



PJC in NoVa said:


> In the US, I suspect it is even more *exiguous*, hence the intense difficulty of finding a laundry that will even consider handling the cleaning of these mysterious neck enwrapments.


*exiguous.*
Great word. I will have to use it three times a day for seven days.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - - Share This 
ex·ig·u·ous https://secure.reference.com/premiu...tp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exiguous /ɪgˈzɪgyuəs, ɪkˈsɪg-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ig-*zig*-yoo-_uh_s, ik-*sig*-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation -adjective scanty; meager; small; slender: exiguous income. 
[Origin: 1645-55; < L _exiguus_ scanty in measure or number, small, equiv. to _exig_(_ere_) (see exigent) + _-uus_ deverbal adj. suffix]

-Related forms ex·i·gu·i·ty https://secure.reference.com/premiu...tp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exiguous /ˌɛksɪˈgyuɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ek-si-*gyoo*-i-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, ex·ig·u·ous·ness, noun 
ex·ig·u·ous·ly, adverb

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> I think they're awful.
> 
> The sole on a dress shoe should be leather.
> 
> ...


Ferragamo sells a similar looking pair.


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## cut76 (Dec 29, 2007)

Aside from Brooks and C&J, who makes a good opera pump? I tried the Brooks model, which I found very uncomfortable. Ben Silver carries the C&J, but my size is backordered for quite a while. I asked about EG at Sky Valet, but that's a little out of my price range for opera pumps.

Any other ideas?


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Bogdanoff said:


> Ferragamo sells a similar looking pair.


Yep, I have the Ferragamos. I like them since, as Capt pointed out, they're a nice compromise between something more modern and the traditional bow. Plus, they're easier to find in a store than a shoe with an actual bow. :icon_smile_big:


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

cut76 said:


> Aside from Brooks and C&J, who makes a good opera pump? I tried the Brooks model, which I found very uncomfortable. Ben Silver carries the C&J, but my size is backordered for quite a while. I asked about EG at Sky Valet, but that's a little out of my price range for opera pumps.
> 
> Any other ideas?


AE at least used to make a model called Ritz. I have a pair. Although they are a great shoe, they are too tight on my instep. I have only ever worn them once.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

the etruscan said:


> I don't really understand celebrity worship, but actors seem, if anything, more worthy of deification than royalty. At least they do something, royalty just has the right parents.


I agree completely.


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Capt Ron said:


> The sole is leather. I would only have a leather sole, the heel is rubber of course.
> 
> I thought is was a nice masculine compromise between a balmoral and a bow pump.
> I know the bow is most appropriate, but it's just a bit too much flare for me.
> ...


It looks clunky. I fail to see a need to make a compromise on an opera pump based on it's look.

I compromised based on cost! My own formal shoe is a low vamp calf slip-on which was as close to a opera pump as I could get for the money I had to spend.


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*This is why Royalty dictates fashion.....*



jackmccullough said:


> I agree completely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *the etruscan* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=687903#post687903 
_I don't really understand celebrity worship, but actors seem, if anything, more worthy of deification than royalty. At least they do something, royalty just has the right parents._

In defense of Royalty...

Regardless of you thoughts on Royalty there has to be some central point where fashion can be judged, made, or changed.

Royalty is the very reason that fashion exists today. Remember it is believe that royals are appointed by divine right, (even according to the Bible) therefore when in the presents of a person or persons appointed by God to rule (the people and church), one should dress respectfully. My theory is this started with _Court dress,_ the most formal of dress in existence_._

Therefore, that dresscode is up to the divine appointed rulers discretion. We have seen over the well documented years of history how different royals have effected the fashion code, for better and for worse, but the best part is that it is not up for a useful debate or arguement. One does not question a divine appointed ruler.

Right or wrong royalty simplifies the line of sartorial debate with a simple thumbs up or down. It's much easier for a society to follow direction from one ruler (preferably a benign dictatorship with a good sense of fashion) than to have to constantly vote on issues of fashion or anything else for that matter.

We have all seen that most people are not educated enough to be a part of a political or social process that involves them with making decisions that effect other people. This is where royalty shines greatest.

Royalty had the greatest education, or at least the greatest access to education. They are committed to service to the people and often have miserable lives because of it, all in the name of service. You may laugh, but I assure the British monarchy takes their job as the historical foundation of the UK very seriously. Sure there have been screw ups, that is what makes them appointed mortals and not gods. That's why having as many hairs to the thrown to choose from is a good thing.

Every joyous event in black-tie I have ever experienced I owe to a British Royal and a copy-cat American and an Italian tailor.

Has America ever invented a globally RESPECTED fashion in good taste for men? I may be wrong and I hope I am, but what clothing fashion has America invented that has been accepted globally in a positve way other than the bikini? The bikini is American according to the history channel, but I think the inventor himself was French.
Just the mere fact that our American society tolerates baggy pants, shows we are much better off following fashion from societies that have been around a little longer than us.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Okay, I don't know you that well, which partly means that I'm not entirely sure whether you're being facetious. ("[A]ppointed by God to rule"? "We have all seen that most people are not educated enough to be a part of a political or social process that involves them with making decisions that effect other people. This is where royalty shines greatest.")

Still, rather than get into a debate over the merits of a monarchy vs. some republican form of government, which may get this discussion bumped to the Interchange, I'll just point out that your reliance on what styles have been accepted and respected world-wide, your references to various errors and screw-ups by members of one royal family, and your expressions of your own aesthetic values, all contradict your apparent point that we should look to English royalty as the standard for evaluating anything.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Capt Ron said:


> *exiguous.*
> Great word. I will have to use it three times a day for seven days.


Building word power while building wardrobes. It's all about multitasking.:teacha:


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

*Hairs to the Thrown?*



Capt Ron said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the etruscan* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=687903#post687903
> _I don't really understand celebrity worship, but actors seem, if anything, more worthy of deification than royalty. At least they do something, royalty just has the right parents._
> 
> ...


Or even heirs to the throne....but I do agree with the underlying argument.

The picture I posted way back in this thread shows the current Prince of Wales carrying off black tie with ease and grace IMO.


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## Roikins (Mar 22, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> Thanks for the tips, but the issue isn't so much staining. As someone said the collar stands away from your neck and at most events you're only there a few hours so it's not like it gathers lots grime. The issue is with the collar itself. The nature of it is that it needs a slight shine to it from the starch and pressing and a stiffness to work right. My question to those that wear stiff collars a lot is whether this can be maintained for more than one wearing (I think perhaps it can) or am I fooling myself and I need to launder after after every use.


Well, here's a nice little answer to starching collars yourself and getting the shine from :

I've always startched my own shirt fronts and collars. It's dead easy. I follow the instructions from a 1912 laundry instruction book I have (which gives some amazing instructions--I can tell you how to clean _swan's down fur_, too!)

Laundry starch is really just rice starch so if you can't find boxed starch, go to the Asian food section of your local grocer and pick up a box there (I use tapioca starch, to be honest. Gives a nice finish)

You need *1 tablespoon of starch* and *1 cup of water*.

Mix the starch with just a little of the water in a shallow bowl until it's smooth; then add the rest of the water.

Take the collar (dry) and dip it into the starch mixture two or three times, rubbing to get the starch grains into the collar. Press out the water between dippings.

Stretch it out evenly on a clean towel and roll it up tightly in the towel. Let it sit (half hour minimum). The drier the collar is when you iron it, the less time it will take.

Unroll everything and stretch the collar a bit (gently) then start ironing. The iron needs to be really hot because you're actually cooking the starch! Start ironing from the inside first. If you have extra fullness of fabric, iron it towards the centre.

Iron the front and back alternately, carefully pressing down the wing tips on the front. You 're technically suppose to keep ironing until it's dry. I usually don't have enough time to let it sit for a long time before ironing so I iron it while it's still wet and let it dry completely over night.

Oh, for the impressive finishing touch! You have to curl it. This is just like curling ribbon on Christmas presents: hold one end of the collar; put the iron down as close to your fingers as you can; press down on the iron and pull the collar through. Do this a couple of times and your collar will be beautifully round!


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

jackmccullough said:


> Okay, I don't know you that well, which partly means that I'm not entirely sure whether you're being facetious. ("[A]ppointed by God to rule"?


Jack, 
I'm just going based on historical beliefs pertaining to the ruling monarchy and none of my personal beliefs.
Yes, lets not get the thread bumped to the interchange.

Long live the Queen!
(and I sincerely mean that)


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## resilient (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi guys,

I'm looking to buy my first self-tie black bowtie. I am buying a satin bowtie but have been wondering if there are any rules about the width of the "wings". Do I stick with something smaller, or is there a gold standard? I am a smaller person, so I am afraid that a large bowtie will ruin the complete look...


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

resilient said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm looking to buy my first self-tie black bowtie. I am buying a satin bowtie but have been wondering if there are any rules about the width of the "wings". Do I stick with something smaller, or is there a gold standard? I am a smaller person, so I am afraid that a large bowtie will ruin the complete look...


Good for you! Knowing how to tie a bow tie is one of those little things that sets a well-dressed gentleman apart from the masses. There are dozens of good retailers and brands but, considering your size, I'd stay away from ties wider than 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches in width. Any bigger and you might end up looking like George Burns or Swifty Lazar!:icon_smile_big:


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Capt Ron said:


> The sole is leather. I would only have a leather sole, the heel is rubber of course.
> 
> I thought is was a nice masculine compromise between a balmoral and a bow pump.
> I know the bow is most appropriate, but it's just a bit too much flare for me.
> ...


Mon Capitan,
Are you saying that bow tie pumps are not masculine?


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*What kinda of guy wear a shoe with a pretty bow???*



Literide said:


> Mon Capitan,
> Are you saying that bow tie pumps are not masculine?


A little history I shall take the time to write since our ball this evening has been cancelled due to our inability to find a proper baby sitter.

I was raised in Connecticut surrounded by black-tie events filled with well known people that were very wealthy. My first generation American family was not of this "pedigree", so my invitation to these functions always read wear appropriate staff dress for black-tie. I always did admire watching the richies have a good time all dressed up to the nines. Many of my co-workers would just jealously make fun of them while I hoped one day to share the same lifestyle.

As a young adult I always felt a bit pretentious in a tuxedo and it never fit me quite right inside or out. It wasn't until my years working in Las Vegas did I truly start enjoying black-tie. I worked in several well know casinos in my mid handsome twenties and was often invited to parties by richies who just enjoyed my sense of humor as they handed over their money to me across the black jack table. Vegas is different than New England. There's very little _old money, _so there's much less social rank and file. Rich one day, poor the next, Vegas is about being cool.

Black-tie is cool, it's not stuffy. I have always associated opera pumps with my stuffy Connecticut roots and never gave it much thought until I got our of the Navy two years ago and immediatley jumped _back in black_. The eight years prior I always had my dress blue uniform to wear to most formal events.

After going to four events in black-tie in the past two months, (including an opera) I have started to change my beliefs towards opera pumps with those pretty black grosgrain bows. I now like them.

I have scoured the internet and have found the perfect classic leather pair for around $115.00 bow and all.

Back to the "not masculine" comment:

Without a sane doubt, an opera pump is not as masculine looking as a barmoral. A balmoral is not as masculine looking as a blucher. A dress blucher is not as masculine looking as a marine's combat boot.

So..my answer is yes. An opera pump has more feminine characteristics of a woman's shoe, thus making it not as masculine looking compared to other men's shoes. Every comparison is relative. But, I still like it.

I view emasculation in a helpful positve sartorial way.

The more comfortable I became in black-tie (with help from AAAC) the more I desired to wear Opera pumps, now it's just a matter of extra cash.

Yes, opera pumps are less masculine so is the color pink. But I have been wearing pink shirts since the 80's to sooth some of my more masculine ferocious physical characteristcs that often unintentionally intimidate people.

My physical size and personality combined with my need to speak my mind has often inadvertantly caused uncomfortable and negative situations personally and professionally.

Less guys asked to fight me in bars when I started wearing more pastel colors. Noone wants to get their ass kicked by a guy in a pretty pink shirt.

Sure I was hanging out in the wrong places, but their are liquid couraged Napoleans everywhere. I highly recommend avoiding professional arm wrestlers. These guys are little pit-pulls half my size that can rip my arm off with pure technique and the ability to place their entire body weight into one appendage. Till this day, I still get approached be these dangerous little people wanting a contest. I politely tell them, the last little guy I arm wrestled ripped my arm off and hence forced me to proceed to beat him to death with it.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Capt Ron said:


> A little history I shall take the time to write since our ball this evening has been cancelled due to our inability to find a proper baby sitter.
> 
> I was raised in Connecticut surrounded by black-tie events filled with well known people that were very wealthy. My first generation American family was not of this "pedigree", so my invitation to these functions always read wear appropriate staff dress for black-tie. I always did admire watching the richies have a good time all dressed up to the nines. Many of my co-workers would just jealously make fun of them while I hoped one day to share the same lifestyle.
> 
> ...


Cap'n Ron

With all dues respect, you are appying a range of masculinity to femininity where there is simply a range of formality. I own a range of footwear from evening pumps to hunting boots and wearing the former does not make me less masculine than wearing the latter.

Isnt it what we aspire to here on AA? To learn the nuances of menswear and accesories, and on what occasions to wear them. Do we not also aspire to own a complete gentlemens wardrobe including all the right footwear?

As a former Naval Officer I'm sure you are well versed in what uniform, accesories, and decorations to wear on a given occasion. Your former employers in Greenwich knew how to do the same in their world.

Nothing wrong with pink mans shirt either. Of course I dont frequent panhandle ******* bars......

And please dont buy those shoes pictured earlier. If you have a fairly frequent need for evening clothes, hold out till you find the proper pumps or bals.

Cheers


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Literide said:


> Cap'n Ron
> 
> With all dues respect, you are appying a range of masculinity to femininity where there is simply a range of formality. I own a range of footwear from evening pumps to hunting boots and wearing the former does not make me less masculine than wearing the latter.


Literide, please forgive me. I was only referring to the shoe as being less masculine, not the wearer. It was not my intention to judge one's masculinity one way or another, merely the look of the shoe. Perhaps my examples were too vague.



> Isnt it what we aspire to here on AA? To learn the nuances of menswear and accesories, and on what occasions to wear them. Do we not also aspire to own a complete gentlemens wardrobe including all the right footwear?


I agree, learning is the point of it all. I'd like to think that "acceptable" is more proper than "right" or wrong". Although, I am guilty of making all three proclamations.



> As a former Naval Officer I'm sure you are well versed in what uniform, accesories, and decorations to wear on a given occasion. Your former employers in Greenwich knew how to do the same in their world.


Although, I entered the Navy with a bachelor's degree, my specialty was not open to fresh officers at the time, hence I had no other choice than to enlist and I remained enlisted for eight years. I was still well versed in both officer and enlisted dress and often made sewing repairs and alterations by hand and machine to both.



> Nothing wrong with pink mans shirt either. Of course I dont frequent panhandle ******* bars......


One bar's ******* is another bar's Guido.



> And please dont buy those shoes pictured earlier. If you have a fairly frequent need for evening clothes, hold out till you find the proper pumps or bals.


No worries, I'm saving up for the classice black patent and grosgrain bow opera pump.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Capt Ron said:


> Literide, please forgive me. I was only referring to the shoe as being less masculine, not the wearer. It was not my intention to judge one's masculinity one way or another, merely the look of the shoe. Perhaps my examples were too vague.
> 
> I agree, learning is the point of it all. I'd like to think that "acceptable" is more proper than "right" or wrong". Although, I am guilty of making all three proclamations.
> 
> ...


Cap,
Still think your analogy and terminology is missplaced. Highly formal, yes, feminine, no. Clearly not appreciated or accepted footwear in every circle, but hardly feminine. "Elitist", perhaps...

Don't frequent Guido bars either

Cheers


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

*well...........*



Literide said:


> Cap,
> Still think your analogy and terminology is missplaced. Highly formal, yes, feminine, no. Clearly not appreciated or accepted footwear in every circle, but hardly feminine. "Elitist", perhaps...
> 
> Don't frequent Guido bars either
> ...


As gentlemen we shall argee to disagree, although I'm not quite sure what we are disagreeing or agreeing on, but I'll shake on it.

MY final thought. I consider opera pumps feminine looking, but I still would happily wear them just so I could be exceptionally proper and hopefully more comfortable. Even better, Id probably be the only one down here wearing them and I like that.:aportnoy:


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## Midnight Blue (Apr 22, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> I think that the best resource I've seen on this is www.blacktieguide.com (created and maintained by a member of this community). It is well researched and sticks to the classic style. I find it doesn't lead folks too far from the established path, but does a really good job in being comprehensive and doesn't rule out options unnecessarily.


Thanks for the kind words Mark! I would like to advise those who use my site as a resource to be sure to check back every couple of months until I've completed a major revision that is currently underway. When the site was first posted it was based largely on writings by published style and etiquette experts but being a member of Style Forum has inspired me to dig down into the firsthand sources on which those experts rely. Consquently, the revised sections are more authoritative and comprehensive than ever before.

I'm also glad you feel that I don't rule out options unnecessarily. I think much of black-tie's appeal is its flexibility rather than its rigidity. I just want to help guys learn how to bend the rules tastefully rather than break them out of sheer ignorance of the dinner jacket's fundamental principles.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Has anyone ever come across opera pumps in smooth leather?

Are those acceptable as formal footwear, or, must the slippers be patent leather?


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Scoundrel said:


> Has anyone ever come across opera pumps in smooth leather?
> 
> Are those acceptable as formal footwear, or, must the slippers be patent leather?


Opera pumps in calfskin do tend to be harder to find and, generally more expensive. However, they are perfectly acceptable as I understand it and, some would argue, even a bit more stylish.

Perhaps others can direct you to some makers of calfskin opera pumps. I'm not aware of them, though I do know they exist.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

The bows were pinched and were Polo Ralph Lauren

Really nice last, at least I thought


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Scoundrel said:


> Has anyone ever come across opera pumps in smooth leather?
> 
> Are those acceptable as formal footwear, or, must the slippers be patent leather?


I have Cole Haans from over a decade ago. Italian made, black calf, red braid all around the foot opening and a red lining. I dont think you'll find anything like it at CH these days. The only other possibility I know of is Edward Greene. You may also be able to find EGs calf pumps under the RLPL brand, but probably only at the mansion in NY. Probably expensive either way. Shipton has a black suede bow tie pumpin addition to pattent but no calf.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

I would like to offer a suggestion to one who is shopping for a pair of opera pumps: from my experience, because of the drastically elongated neck of the slipper, it is best to go at least one size down. Also, unlike a shoe, there is nothing to fasten it to one's foot. The odd thing is, the more elongated the neck of a piece of footwear is, the easier it is for your foot to accidentally slip out; so, it would seem more necessary to add fasteners, such as holes and laces, to slippers with very long openings. I don't get it.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

*John Lobb will make you one with...*



Literide said:


> I have Cole Haans from over a decade ago. Italian made, black calf, red braid all around the foot opening and a red lining. I dont think you'll find anything like it at CH these days. The only other possibility I know of is Edward Greene. You may also be able to find EGs calf pumps under the RLPL brand, but probably only at the mansion in NY. Probably expensive either way. Shipton has a black suede bow tie pumpin addition to pattent but no calf.


...pinched or flat bow. Depending on your resources could be ruinously expensive!


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## Bull (Jul 7, 2005)

*Prince Albert Slipper*

Don't think I saw any mention of the velvet slipper here as an alternative shoe w/ a dinner suit. Mine have my initials in gold wire on a field of black; red, quilted lining. Inherited from my father w/ same initials, but I just saw some in the Shipton & Heneage catalogue I received. They look very nice and are custom designed, if you like.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Brideshead said:


> ...pinched or flat bow. Depending on your resources could be ruinously expensive!


I think its flat, while the EGs are pinched. And yes, EGs or PLs are probably in the area of $900 unless you get tipped to a good deal on polo.com.

My CHs were not much more than $100 at the outlet in VT after the line was discontinued circa 1993. Dont believe they are seconds, cant find any defects and they only see duty 2-3 times a year since the offspring came along.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

Literide said:


> I think its flat, while the EGs are pinched. And yes, EGs or PLs are probably in the area of $900 unless you get tipped to a good deal on polo.com.
> 
> My CHs were not much more than $100 at the outlet in VT after the line was discontinued circa 1993. Dont believe they are seconds, cant find any defects and they only see duty 2-3 times a year since the offspring came along.


Yes, I was referring to these
https://www.johnlobbltd.co.uk/catal...sitetreesslippers/Slippersweb/Pumps/thumb.htm

Price is a staggering £1900 or thereabouts for bespoke (plus trees of course!). But they are lovely......and I have got as far as exchanging emails with them about a calf pair but no further!


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Scoundrel said:


> Has anyone ever come across opera pumps in smooth leather?
> 
> Are those acceptable as formal footwear, or, must the slippers be patent leather?


I have a pair. Edward Green for Ede & Ravenscroft.
£295 with trees (IIRC)
Not a fan of patent.

*W_B*


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## Capt Ron (Dec 28, 2007)

Brideshead said:


> Yes, I was referring to these
> https://www.johnlobbltd.co.uk/catal...sitetreesslippers/Slippersweb/Pumps/thumb.htm
> 
> Price is a staggering £1900 or thereabouts for bespoke (plus trees of course!). But they are lovely......and I have got as far as exchanging emails with them about a calf pair but no further!


Those are hot! Doesnt seem like there would be much craftsmanship going into a pair of pumps as many of their othershoes. Plain and simple for that money they better know the foxtrott and massage your feet too!


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

How do you shine a pair of calfskin pumps without getting polish on the grosgrain?


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> How do you shine a pair of calfskin pumps without getting polish on the grosgrain?


Carefully

I've cleaned a pair of patent leather pumps, and the bows don't really get in the way. I figure it would be the same if one was using polish. Even if you did get some on the bow, it is all black anyway, so it would appear hardly noticeable. No big deal.

Makes me wonder how normal it was for kids to develop a knack for avoiding the laces of their shine customers


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

Pardon me if this has been comprehesively covered before but, as with many sartorial matters, there doesn't seem to be a consensus:

I have a SB peak lapel two-button dinner jacket with grosgrain facing, un-flapped besom pockets and no vents. After reading the many posts on the forum cocerning dinner jackets, I decided to get something a bit more "traditional", so I purchased a shawl collared jacket. Question: Can a wear a low-cut formal vest with such a jacket or is a cummerbund the only "traditional" option?
The original dinner jacket came with a notch lapel postboy vest, which I now understand isn't traditional, so I'm no longer going to wear it in black tie situations. I don't know what else to do with it - I don't think that I can wear it as an odd waistcoat given that it has fabric-covered buttons.​
Absent patent leather pumps or oxfords, can a wear my black cap-toed balmorals (Alfred Sargent) or my black wholecuts (AE Westgate)? I read somewhere on AAAC that wholecuts shouldn't be worn with black tie.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

LD111134 said:


> Question: Can a wear a low-cut formal vest with such a jacket or is a cummerbund the only "traditional" option?


Yes, you can wear a vest with a shawl lapel DJ, but make sure that the curve of the lapels on the vest compliments the lapels on the DJ. Most people go with a cummerbund because the curve on the top compliments the curve of the lapels on the DJ.



LD111134 said:


> Absent patent leather pumps or oxfords, can a wear my black cap-toed balmorals (Alfred Sargent) or my black wholecuts (AE Westgate)? I read somewhere on AAAC that wholecuts shouldn't be worn with black tie.


If the cap-toes don't have any brogueing on them, they'd be the first choice. If you're going to wear black tie more than a few times a year, you should seriously consider investing in a pair of patent leather formal shoes, though.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Brand	Bowhill & Elliott
Type	Mens Slippers
Style	6862 Bow Pump
Colour	Black
Price	£110
Mens black patent evening bow pump, hand made, hard leather sole, satin quilt lining, mens sizes 6 - 13

https://www.bowhillandelliott.co.uk/Asp/ShowDetail.asp?ProductId=90


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

*New Tux Acquisitions*

Just a personal note that I wanted to share:

I bought a Joseph Abboud kit about 3 years ago. The jacket had most of the "classic" elements - unvented back, peak lapels with grosgrain facing, besom flapless pockets, silk-faced buttons. However, it had two buttons. Before joining AAAC, I would not have noticed this but since participating on this board in general (and reading this thread in particular) the two buttons began to bother me. Furthermore, the kit came with a black 6-button notch lapel "post boy" vest, which is also outside the realm of semi-formal tradition.

Thus, two months ago, I purchased on eBay a NWT Zegna-fabric Italian-made one-button DJ with a satin-faced shawl collar, unflapped besom pockets and no vent (I realize that the jacket is not Zegna _per se_). I pair this with the pleated trousers from the Joseph Abboud tux. Fortunately, the fabrics and color match.

In reading this thread, it was obvious that the proper waist covering for a shawl collar kit is a cummerbund. Nevertheless, I began reading posts on this thread concerning backless low-gorge shawl collar vests and how such vests are most properly paired with peak lapel DJs. I thus started to lust after such a jacket/vest combination.

I first bid on a used Dunhill peak lapel dinner suit on eBay a few weeks ago, but I lost the auction in the last few seconds. In any event, I forged ahead and purchased a white cotton shawl collar vest from the eBay vendor "Tails and the Unexpected", and I was very pleased. However, I still lacked a proper peak lapel jacket.

Last week, I did buy such a kit on eBay. A Christian Dior Monsieur kit with one-button closure, satin-faced peak lapels (without any lapel button), flapped besom pockets and a single vent, plus flat-front trousers. I've taken this garment to my superb tailor. She is taking in the jacket, removing the pockets' flaps, sewing-up the vent, hand-stitching a straight (not keyhole) lapel button where one does not now exist and shortening the trousers.

When I first opened the box in which the Dior tux was shipped, I felt the rather hard hand of the fabric and I was alarmed. However, my tailor told me that I should be happy because the tux's fabric is mohair, and she said that she sees mohair infrequently. After the alternations, I'll have a second kit with which I can wear the white low-gorge shawl-collar vest.

Next acquisition - patent leather pumps to replace the black Alfred Sargent balmorals that I've been using for black tie events (oddly enough, these shoes are probably made of corrected grain leather that looks like patent leather when shined-up).

All I need now are invitations to some black-tie events...:icon_smile_big:

_Actually, my next aquisition might be a proper detachable wing collar pique-front shirt with single cuffs (non-button, naturally). Any suggestions for a vendor would be greatly appreciated._


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

LD111134 said:


> All I need now are invitations to some black-tie events...:icon_smile_big:


Well done LD and thanks for sharing. Your tailor sounds like a great find.

Your final statement of course sums up the dilemma. How much investment should one make, bearing in mind that black tie events for most I suspect are fairly rare.

On the subject of calf pumps I contacted Shipton and Heneage by phone and they confirm that they could have a pair made up. I also asked about a flat bow and they seemed less than sure. They could make a pump without a bow, of course, if required. I believe their slippers are all made by Bowhill and Elliott (see link above).


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

Brideshead said:


> On the subject of calf pumps I contacted Shipton and Heneage by phone and they confirm that they could have a pair made up. I also asked about a flat bow and they seemed less than sure. They could make a pump without a bow, of course, if required. I believe their slippers are all made by Bowhill and Elliott (see link above).


Brideshead (revisited?),

Thanks for the opera pump suggestion. I will certainly investigate that possibility.

One occasion that I can wear my black tie kit is to opening night at the Lyric Opera of Chicago. I have very good seats, but my subscription is for Tuesday night performances and I rarely see any chaps in black tie on those nights (I suspect that more men might wear black tie if they sit in orchestra/main floor seats during Friday or Saturday night performances).


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## storeynicholas (Feb 15, 2008)

Capt Ron said:


> Who is this guy?


Apart from the belt, he seems to have the right idea - more of an idea than Daniel Popeye Craig - but the girls look my daughter's age (19) - and that's scarey.


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