# Staples that you just can't/won't wear



## jimw (May 4, 2009)

I'm almost certain that this type of question has been spun through the wringer before, but I don't care to search for it in the archives. The question is: what 'trad' items, regardless of their provenance & legitimacy, can you not personally do (either because you simply don't like them or don't like them 'on you')?

For me:

1. White bucks - they just seem out of place with any outfit - it must be the stark contrast to everything else, and when they get dirty, they look dirty.
2. Bit loafers - not for me, I'm afraid as they seem to cross the line to Euro fashion. The same thing goes for kiltie or tassel loafers, to a lesser extent.
3. GTH sportscoats - as a younger man, sure, but for practical purposes at 47 I'd just look like an ass. I'm not bold enough to pull this off without looking like a clown.
4. Nantucket Reds - same as above, though I WISH I could pull it off. I always think of the character Pagoda from 'Royal Tenenbaums' (if he could do it, why not me?)
5. Formal hats of any sort (fedoras, tyroleans, etc). I love the notion, but I just think that many who wear them nowadays look costumed and not dressed. This is not a judgement call - I look at old pics of my grandfather and think "that man could dress", but the time has long passed where I could pull this off.
6. Pendleton plaid wool shirts - great, casual stuff, but they've been co-opted by the Cholo set in a case of odd cross-pollination.
7. Tweed sports coat over a wool sweater. This looks great, but I just can't do it - even being in the deep freeze of Canada right now, I'd just swelter.
8. Surcingle belts. I'm not sure why this doesn't mesh with me, as I do LOVE ribbon watch straps of similar appearance. Maybe I just need to buy one to give it a try.

Interested in knowing what doesn't work for you and why.


Cheers,

JW


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Can't do #4 on your list. I don't like bright colors on the bottom half of my ensemble. 

Tartan and other plaid trousers. Same reason as above.
Wingtips. And other leather dress shoes. Too dressy. Wingtips especially remind me of my dad, i.e., they're old man stuff. 
Suits. I think they're boring.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Tassel loafers. I'm not sure they qualify as a staple but I don't care for them and won't wear them.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Duvel said:


> Can't do #4 on your list. I don't like bright colors on the bottom half of my ensemble.
> 
> Tartan and other plaid trousers. Same reason as above.
> Wingtips. And other leather dress shoes. Too dressy. Wingtips especially remind me of my dad, i.e., *they're old man stuff.*
> Suits. I think they're boring.


Sorry, but you have crossed the threshold into old man territory. You'll have to get used to it.

Myself, I can't do canoe moc's. Laces never stay tied and they present no advantage over Topsiders or camp moc's.

And I wouldn't consider bit loafers to be a staple or within the TNSIL aesthetic.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Bit loafers are weird. I can't do them either.



32rollandrock said:


> Sorry, but you have crossed the threshold into old man territory. You'll have to get used to it.
> 
> Myself, I can't do canoe moc's. Laces never stay tied and they present no advantage over Topsiders or camp moc's.
> 
> And I wouldn't consider bit loafers to be a staple or within the TNSIL aesthetic.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Totally agree with 1-5, as if I made the list myself. I have to quibble with one thing though: I think the gth jacket works better and better the older you are. Or, either REALLY young, or on the older side and the older the better.


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## my19 (Nov 11, 2009)

Made a quick stop at one of the local department stores yesterday to see what they were giving away in the post-holiday sales. Saw a couple of pairs of RL's GTH cords with prices slashed. Sorry, not for me. As far as I'm concerned, GTH can GTH.

And like a number of you here, I don't get bit loafers.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Chukka boots

I'll wear a patchwork madras shirt or shorts, but I dunno about patchwork madras pants. 

Otherwise, I'm pretty open.

EDIT: Oh yeah, pleated pants. Flat front only, please.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Medallion print ties. Paisley too as a general rule, but I've made exceptions for some ancient madder ones.

also can't stand thick soles on shoes (lug, commando, etc). I'm okay with it on boots, but I can't stand the way they look on dress shoes.

i find the aversion to Nantucket reds entertaining, as that makes up probably 1/3 of my summer pants. Actually, judging by the responses here, most of y'all would hate my entire summer wardrobe lol. Pastels and madras and ribbon belts galore.


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## Jman9599 (Dec 23, 2013)

Bow ties. I just can't pull it off.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Wingtips. I can't explain it. I just don't like 'em.


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## ricardofrancisco (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't wear ties of any sort unless I have to. I also can't bring myself to wearing bit loafers, madras shirts, nantucket reds and French cuffs.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Can't figure out what GTH means...


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## jimw (May 4, 2009)

The thing is, these items look great on you, OF. Funny that some people can carry it off - it may be a combination of body type, age or bearing, but some can do it, and others cannot and have to find their own look. I also wonder if wearing such things with frequency gives a person ownership of the look. This goes for bow ties, I think - it looks odd on somebody who only wears a bow once in a blue moon, but for those who wear them with regularity and versatility, it just looks like that man's style.

If you can pull it off, then good for you. I wish I had more sack to show up at a party in a blazer and patchwork madras pants!

Cheers,

JW

i find the aversion to Nantucket reds entertaining, as that makes up probably 1/3 of my summer pants. Actually, judging by the responses here, most of y'all would hate my entire summer wardrobe lol. Pastels and madras and ribbon belts galore.[/QUOTE]


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

At the risk of losing the right to post in this forum - for me, it is flat front pants. 

Can't stand them.


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## barneco (Mar 4, 2014)

Loafers - or any slip-on shoe for that matter with my house slippers being the sole exception.


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## catside (Oct 7, 2010)

Bean boots, loafers.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I once had a pair of those "oh-so-classic" red soled white bucks. Seemed like a great idea at the time of purchase, but I spent perhaps three years finding excuses for not wearing them out of the house and eventually took them to the local Goodwill Store. I guess that might qualify as a Trad staple that I just couldn't wear? Though I did wear them in my home! 

Now tan or dirty bucks were another story...I couldn't seem to wear those enough for a period of time.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Re #6
At the risk of sounding like the thought police, I'll point out that _cholo_ is a South American pejorative for underclass mestizos, which doesn't prevent its use a a term of endearment, as in calling your girl, _mi cholita_. In our West Coast it's applied to a Chicano street type. The word has gangbanger implications and it would not be used outside the group anymore than the notorious n-word. It's often used ironically within these groups, and peraps jimw belongs to one of them, in which case, my apologies for this comment. Or the word has a different meaning in Canada.
From a sartorial point of view, the appropriation of the Pendleton shirt, collar buttoned and others open, as well as chinos customized at the cuff, by the so-called _chol_o set happened long ago. I don't even know if it's still in style, though I must admit it's one cool look. In any case, I see nothing odd in this cross-pollination that lent a raffish yet austere panache to these shirts.
My own problem with the shirts is that though some of them are heartbreakingly beautiful they're made of the scratchiest wool I've ever tried to wear. I have owned several of them, including the great shirt-jackets, but my skin said no. I've had one, acquired on the Exchange, sitting in my closet unworn for a couple of years. I think I'll place back it on the Exchange and perhaps some trad _cholo_ will claim it.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Duvel said:


> Suits. I think they're boring.


I have to say that I agree with this^ too. Suits, unfortunately, have become inextricably tied to the corporate world, at least in my opinion. Not that there is anything necessarily wrong with the corporate world, but that's the association I have with suits, and it ain't me.


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## Semper Jeep (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't care for white bucks. I've gone back and forth on tan/dirty bucks over the years and bought and then parted with some at least 3 times, but in the end I don't think they are for me either.

There's something about ribbon belts that just turn me off to them.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

jimw said:


> The thing is, these items look great on you, OF. Funny that some people can carry it off - it may be a combination of body type, age or bearing, but some can do it, and others cannot and have to find their own look. I also wonder if wearing such things with frequency gives a person ownership of the look. This goes for bow ties, I think - it looks odd on somebody who only wears a bow once in a blue moon, but for those who wear them with regularity and versatility, it just looks like that man's style.
> 
> If you can pull it off, then good for you. I wish I had more sack to show up at a party in a blazer and patchwork madras pants!
> 
> ...


I agree, I think OF looks great in that stuff - I think a lot of it is body type.

However, I do think that frequency gives a person some "ownership" of a look/style/item. This does have its limits though. But I think most people can wear bowties - the problem is, very few people wear them correctly. You have to wear them a lot to learn how to wear them. What sort suits you; how to tie them just so. Most people tie them too tightly against their neck, have them way too long/wide, and tie them so perfectly they look like a clip on clown tie. Not everyone can pull of a large butterfly style bowtie, etc.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> I once had a pair of those "oh-so-classic" red soled white bucks. Seemed like a great idea at the time of purchase, but I spent perhaps three years finding excuses for not wearing them out of the house and eventually took them to the local Goodwill Store. I guess that might qualify as a Trad staple that I just couldn't wear? Though I did wear them in my home!
> 
> Now tan or dirty bucks were another story...I couldn't seem to wear those enough for a period of time.


You should have taken those white bucks, gone to the dirtiest, dustiest place you can find, hopefully a place with a mud puddle, and stomped around in them for 20 minutes or so. That's the old-school way to create dirty bucks.


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## jimw (May 4, 2009)

*Cholo ..... often used ironically within these groups, and peraps jimw belongs to one of them, in which case, my apologies for this comment. Or the word has a different meaning in Canada.

*No, I do not belong to one of these groups (I'm pretty darned Caucasian), so guilty as charged! What's worse is that my stunted worldview has no local basis - as far as I know, there are no latin street gangs in S. Ontario, so I can't say I've personally beheld anyone of such membership, wearing Pendletons or otherwise.

I will try to keep from labelling in the future.

Thanks

JW


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

good thread  

tie clips. yuck.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

I agree with 1 through 5 and 8. 6 and 7 are essential components of my wardrobe. To this, I would add that I do not - ever - wear a sport coat with jeans or a suit and collared shirt without a tie. However, suits and sport coats with turtlenecks are also a wardrobe staple - just about my uniform for cultural, artistic, etc., type openings, receptions, etc.


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## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

Things I can't or won't do:
Madras or Seersucker anything
Lace-up Dress Shoes with Chinos, cuffed or uncuffed, or cords
Vests
French cuff shirts (and cufflinks)
Tie Clips
Long Single Breasted Overcoats with exposed buttons
Untucked shirts
Skinny Knit Ties


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

Bit loafers. I don't think they're congruous to the rest of the "trad" look. 

I've never seen an outfit that included bit loafers where I didn't think to myself "this would look much better with pennies."


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I find it hard to say "never" to something like this, because inevitably, when I do, I end up contradicting myself. I'll say that I'm unlikely, though, to wear the following of what we might think of as trad staples:

Wingtips and other leather dress shoes.
Tie clips.
Nantucket red trousers.
Tartan and other plaid trousers.
Brightly colored trousers.
Emblematic trousers (hunting dogs, etc.)
Suits.
Madras jackets.
Bit loafers.
Tasseled loafers.
Pea coats. (Too much of a workwear vibe for me, although I think they look great on others.)
Barbour coats. (I used to lust after them. They now feel too ubiquitous. Again, though, I think they look great on those who wear them.)

That's about it.

About the white bucks debate, I absolutely love them. They should be dirty, of course, and, consistent with my list above, non-wingtipped or otherwise adorned. Red soles are essential, of course. I also love tan bucks.


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## gerryz (Nov 14, 2014)

+1 on white bucks. I don't have anything against them style-wise, but after being forced to wear them for high school marching band I just can't bring myself to wear them anymore. Actually kind of hard to wear bucks of any sort at this point.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I'm going to say #5 because there are some hats that I can wear, I can pull it off with the "look".


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Duvel said:


> Bit loafers are weird. I can't do them either.


I never liked 'em either. I'm not a horsey person to begin with and that's not a real horsey bit -- more like gold-chainey disco-bling. So I always felt like preppy types were wearing these ironically, and I don't dress ironically either.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Yes. I can't quite put my finger on it, and maybe it's because I "survived" the 1970s era of tackiness (I had to sell customers leisure suits for a short time). But they feel slightly '70s Playboy magazine-ish to me.



Himself said:


> I never liked 'em either. I'm not a horsey person to begin with and that's not a real horsey bit -- more like gold-chainey disco-bling. So I always felt like preppy types were wearing these ironically, and I don't dress ironically either.


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## Tourist Trophy Garage (Nov 24, 2011)

barneco said:


> my house slippers being the sole exception.


Well done! :great:


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

I'm not a fan of suits, either. So far, I have never been in a situation where a blazer and grey flannels did not suffice. 

I am still easing into GTH items. Never say never...


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Tassel loafers. Never.

To be honest, if money were no issue, I'd invest in better clothes, not more. My jackets would mostly be darted. 

Someday I'll learn to wear bowties, but I couldn't spend money on Black Watch trousers and be true to myself.


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## thegovteach (Dec 2, 2012)

Can't do the Madras jacket, the tweed over the sweater ( too hot here), tie clips, can't do the GTH pants...

However......Now that I have lost 135lbs, I am am seriously looking at a red striped seersucker suit....might stick with the old traditional blue however....


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

I have yet to find a sack coat that looks great on me.

I also am not sure I could handle a seersucker suit, but I like my pincord jacket and I have my eyes peeled for some seersucker trousers.

I hardly ever wear khakis in the cooler months.

But I like bit loafers (a lot).


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

135 pounds!? Wow. Congratulations!



thegovteach said:


> Can't do the Madras jacket, the tweed over the sweater ( too hot here), tie clips, can't do the GTH pants...
> 
> However......Now that I have lost 135lbs, I am am seriously looking at a red striped seersucker suit....might stick with the old traditional blue however....


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

There's a game that academics play, in which everyone has to admit which books s/he's never read. "You know, I've never managed to make it through _The Faerie Queene._" "Hah! I've never read _War and Peace_." Then someone says, "I've never even read _Middlemarch_." At which point the other players think, "What an idiot!" and the game grinds to a halt.

Watch, someone will say, "I don't really like button-down collars," and a moderator will have to delete this thread.


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## thegovteach (Dec 2, 2012)

Duvel said:


> 135 pounds!? Wow. Congratulations!


Soft drinks AKA "Cokes" here in my part of the world will make you fatter than a tub of lard, as will potatoes, corn and most rice....( I miss the swamp seeds more than anything....)
On the positive note, I get to start over with my wardrobe...


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## sarakali (May 19, 2013)

My issue is not so much wearing GTH items, but finding an occasion to wear them. I'm just not invited to enough lawn parties or summer weddings to justify madras this and seersucker that. So those would probably be off my list.


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## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

Lots of apostasy flying around here 

Can't say there's really anything that jumps out at me that I won't wear. I like bit and tassel loafers. I guess I'll echo saraki above in that I have many things that I'd wear more if I had the occasion to.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

sarakali said:


> My issue is not so much wearing GTH items, but finding an occasion to wear them. I'm just not invited to enough lawn parties or summer weddings to justify madras this and seersucker that. So those would probably be off my list.


Madras and Seersucker are not GTH items.

Will not wear any GTH themed items. Used to be 20 years ago that sort of sartorial bravado/one upmanship was done privately at the country club or private parties. Was not fond of it then or now.


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

sarakali said:


> My issue is not so much wearing GTH items, but finding an occasion to wear them. I'm just not invited to enough lawn parties or summer weddings to justify madras this and seersucker that. So those would probably be off my list.


Start with some madras and seersucker shorts. Before you know it, you'll be drinking Bloody Marys off a yacht with your Country Club buddies. :siesta:


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## TweedyDon (Aug 31, 2007)

SlideGuitarist said:


> There's a game that academics play, in which everyone has to admit which books s/he's never read. "You know, I've never managed to make it through _The Faerie Queene._" "Hah! I've never read _War and Peace_." Then someone says, "I've never even read _Middlemarch_." At which point the other players think, "What an idiot!" and the game grinds to a halt.
> 
> Watch, someone will say, "I don't really like button-down collars," and a moderator will have to delete this thread.


"Humiliation", from David Lodge's *Changing Places*!


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

SlideGuitarist said:


> There's a game that academics play, in which everyone has to admit which books s/he's never read. "You know, I've never managed to make it through _The Faerie Queene._" "Hah! I've never read _War and Peace_." Then someone says, "I've never even read _Middlemarch_." At which point the other players think, "What an idiot!" and the game grinds to a halt.
> 
> Watch, someone will say, "I don't really like button-down collars," and a moderator will have to delete this thread.


I think that bit ends when the English Dept. chair proclaims, "_I've never read Hamlet_!"


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## thegovteach (Dec 2, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> I think that bit ends when the English Dept. chair proclaims, "_I've never read Hamlet_!"


Teach high school history/government and be amazed at what a certain element of each department doesn't know.....and they seem to ALL have the same first name....


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Hmm. I had an English prof at Iowa, now a very well-known mystery/action author, who assigned us Joyce's Ulysses with the instructions to read only the first chapter and the last. He said he'd fill us in on the rest during class time. He did this in the interest of saving time, of course, and he also told us that we needed to finish it on our own some day. I haven't yet, but then again, I was only an English minor not a major.



SlideGuitarist said:


> There's a game that academics play, in which everyone has to admit which books s/he's never read. "You know, I've never managed to make it through _The Faerie Queene._" "Hah! I've never read _War and Peace_." Then someone says, "I've never even read _Middlemarch_." At which point the other players think, "What an idiot!" and the game grinds to a halt.
> 
> Watch, someone will say, "I don't really like button-down collars," and a moderator will have to delete this thread.


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## WHHarrington (Dec 28, 2014)

I don’t wear any of the traditional GTH garments, although I do wear my hair longer than most. So, upon further review, I may be disingenuous about my GTH avoidance. Gucci bit loafers for some reason seem very 1970’s. I was a young man in the 70’s and occasionally awaken in a cold sweat recalling my sartorial mistakes of that era. I think seersucker is too costume-like for Philadelphia, but I happily wore it when I lived in Richmond, Virginia.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

gamma68 said:


> I think that bit ends when the English Dept. chair proclaims, "_I've never read Hamlet_!"


I read the Classics Illustrated comic book. Does that count?


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## TimelesStyle (Aug 25, 2013)

White shirts (aside from formal shirts). Yup, you heard me. Until I find one that's completely opaque without the use of an undershirt you won't see any hanging in my closet.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

TimelesStyle said:


> White shirts (aside from formal shirts). Yup, you heard me. Until I find one that's completely opaque without the use of an undershirt you won't see any hanging in my closet.


While I don't necesarrily agree with this, I can see where you're coming from. I have several white OCBDs and dress shirts (and a formal shirt), but I rarely reach for them on a day to day basis. But that's also why I have 4 blue OCBDs.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

What's great about a thread like this is that it shows that, within this wonderful tradition, we can enjoy so many individual variations. It's pretty fascinating to read about our different likes and dislikes.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Duvel said:


> What's great about a thread like this is that it shows that, within this wonderful tradition, we can enjoy so many individual variations. It's pretty fascinating to read about our different likes and dislikes.


Huge +1, the diversity of this forum is one of the reasons I like it so much


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## ricardofrancisco (Jan 1, 2013)

Duvel said:


> What's great about a thread like this is that it shows that, within this wonderful tradition, we can enjoy so many individual variations. It's pretty fascinating to read about our different likes and dislikes.





orange fury said:


> Huge +1, the diversity of this forum is one of the reasons I like it so much


I agree with both of you. I believe it is all these variations that ensure that we all don't have the same look when we're out there. :beer:


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

ricardofrancisco said:


> I agree with both of you. I believe it is all these variations that ensure that we all don't have the same look when we're out there. :beer:


And I'll continue to wear reds, bow ties, and patch madras on behalf of everyone else. "Taking one for the team", and all that :biggrin:


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

So, I wander over to fashion to post my question about about a resort dinner jacket that I thought the trads wouldn't approve and I return to bit loafers as a trad staple...?


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Well, true. I don't think it's listed in The Official Preppy Handbook. It seems to pop up in this forum from time to time, for some reason.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Duvel said:


> Well, true. I don't think it's listed in The Official Preppy Handbook. It seems to pop up in this forum from time to time, for some reason.


They are, described as "post-collegiate," which is a surefire way to make me want them.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Ah, thank you. I stand corrected. Post-collegiate only makes me want them even less, though. I stand firmly in collegiate.



Youthful Repp-robate said:


> They are, described as "post-collegiate," which is a surefire way to make me want them.


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

Long sleeve Madras shirts - yes.
Madras shorts, jackets, pants, or short sleeve shirts - no.

Navy blazer - yes.
Augusta National green blazer - no.

Shoes, every kind, lace up, loafers, boat shoes, bean boots, espadrilles, saddles, boots, etc. - yes
White bucks - no.

Caps - yes.
Hats - no.


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## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

I can't seem to be able to wear a sport jacket without my trousers being cuffed, any trousers. Wearing a sport jacket, with or without tie, depending on the occasion, takes a casual look up a notch and my trousers need to also make that move. Actually, anything less than a suit I consider casual, and I'm not too fond of suits (for myself) these days. This is a totally personal perspective: Lapels on jackets, Cuffs on trousers. OK, get the guns out..


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

fred johnson said:


> I can't seem to be able to wear a sport jacket without my trousers being cuffed, any trousers. Wearing a sport jacket, with or without tie, depending on the occasion, takes a casual look up a notch and my trousers need to also make that move. Actually, anything less than a suit I consider casual, and I'm not too fond of suits (for myself) these days. This is a totally personal perspective: Lapels on jackets, Cuffs on trousers. OK, get the guns out..


Meh, I think most will agree with you. I'm the weirdo that hates cuffs on my chinos (I'll add them to wool trousers though)


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## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

OF, I have several pairs of uncuffed chinos/khakis which I love and wear a lot, just not with sport jackets.


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

I have a nice collection of bow ties that I try on every once and a while, but can't really bring myself to wear out of the house. I keep thinking that they will work better if I drop a few pounds.

In addition, I'm not a big seersucker or madras guy (though I do own some short sleeve madras shirts). I do like bit loafers, and tassel loafers, however. I wear my bit loafers regularly and - unlike in the South or maybe NYC - you really don't see a lot of them in the Chicago suburbs (I do see them more frequently when downtown Chicago).


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

jimw said:


> I'm almost certain that this type of question has been spun through the wringer before, but I don't care to search for it in the archives. The question is: what 'trad' items, regardless of their provenance & legitimacy, can you not personally do (either because you simply don't like them or don't like them 'on you')?
> 
> For me:
> 
> ...


this is a pretty big list. For me it raises the question of what exactly do you wear?


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## YoungSoulRebel (Feb 10, 2015)

Patch Madras anything... I love a nice Madras shirt or blazer but just can't pull off the patch variety.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

I doubt they are staples in any real world, but you will never ever see me in chukka boots or desert boots or patchwork madras. The boots because they are hideously ugly and the patchwork madras because it is just a ridiculous idea altogether.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

Duvel said:


> Wingtips. And other leather dress shoes. Too dressy. Wingtips especially remind me of my dad, i.e., they're old man stuff.
> Suits. I think they're boring.


You don't wear leather dress shoes? Am I missing something?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Patchwork anything - looks awful, always (sorry, Reubs). 

Thin cardigans - I'll wear the chunky stuff, but fine cashmere or merino? Just looks like the women's section of J. Crew. 

Pennies with suits - just... No.

Madras shorts - I was in high school in the mid-2000's, and it reminds me of Abercrombie and Fitch from that era. 

Dress hats - maybe when I'm 60 I'll change my tune, but at 26, no way - I can't bring myself to do it and I hate the look on young men anyway. It always gives off a trying-too-hard-to-look-dapper vibe, to my eye.


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## PaultheSwede (Dec 20, 2014)

For me it's any kind of loafer


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Nobleprofessor said:


> You don't wear leather dress shoes? Am I missing something?


Old man shoes? Well, I'm 53, so I'm not sure this should bother me. But this forum has taught me now comfortable and useful certain items can be that I had long refused to wear: like, oh, sweaters. I just bought my first (ancient madder!!!!) bowtie, so that's another milestone. Sweater vests are too warm, but a lightweight gilet, e.g. I could do that.

"Old man clothes," to me, are either 1, too many neutral colors all at once, which looks dowdy; 2, flashy "I got mine" crap like those Robert Graham shirts with flip-cuffs. As long as I can do martial arts with men 25 years younger than me, I'm not going to worry about looking old.

There are some items I've dared myself to wear, mostly as a result of this forum (wool dress socks! brown tie with blue shirt! pocket squares, for G-d's sake!) with success. There are others about which I say, "Eh, that's just not me." But I'm not going to announce that I'll never wear such-and-such.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

PaultheSwede said:


> For me it's any kind of loafer


I'm asking seriously: do they seem excessively American, or American-collegiate?


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

Tilton said:


> Madras shorts - I was in high school in the mid-2000's, and it reminds me of Abercrombie and Fitch from that era.
> 
> Dress hats - maybe when I'm 60 I'll change my tune, but at 26, no way - I can't bring myself to do it and I hate the look on young men anyway. It always gives off a trying-too-hard-to-look-dapper vibe, to my eye.


I'm with you on both of these. I have bad memories of baggy, near capri length A&F madras shorts. Luckily I never owned a pair.

A fedora, etc. on someone under 60 plays right into the reddit gamer/neckbeard stereotype lol


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

mjo_1 said:


> I'm with you on both of these. I have bad memories of baggy, near capri length A&F madras shorts. Luckily I never owned a pair.
> 
> A fedora, etc. on someone under 60 plays right into the reddit gamer/neckbeard stereotype lol


There's nothing wrong with a purely personal aversion to some of these items. I only saw madras shorts on, well, the rich kids in the Detroit area where I grew up. I've done well, but I hesitate to wear things that, in my mind's eye, make me seem to be trying too hard to be something I never was. This is _not_ a criticism of anyone's sartorial choices, or resentment of their good fortune. I mean that some things "work" for me, others don't, and it's perfectly alright if these choices have an irrational basis.


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## shipworthy (Jun 19, 2014)

Sack cut suits or sport coats. I tried again recently against my better judgement and I just can't do it. I have an 8-9" drop naturally and I end up looking like Spongebob Squarepants.


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## WildCard22 (Feb 23, 2015)

Don't know if it counts as a staple, but the adidas "stan smith" in green doesn't appeal to me at all.


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## 123abc (Oct 3, 2014)

Let. see..... Dress hats, Cardigans, Scarves, Shoes without socks, dress boots, bow ties .... probably some others that I can't think of. These may work for some, just not me.

Oh, and also GTH stuff, probably - but I have no idea what GTH clothing IS so maybe I wear it all the time!


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

123abc said:


> Let. see..... Dress hats, Cardigans, Scarves, Shoes without socks, dress boots, bow ties .... probably some others that I can't think of. These may work for some, just not me.
> 
> Oh, and also GTH stuff, probably - but I have no idea what GTH clothing IS so maybe I wear it all the time!


By scarves, do you mean a wool scarf for the winter or a silk - more stylish - one? I ask because I don't even think of a wool scarf as Trad or not Trad or optional when its cold enough.


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## Il Signor Crispone (Jul 18, 2014)

I can't stand button-down collars - they just look awful to me.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Yeah, I know. Aren't those collars with the roll and everything just awful. I can't do OCBDs, either, or chinos, surcingle belts, 3/2 blazers and jackets, regimental stripe neckties, Shetland crewneck sweaters, LL Bean blucher mocs, desert boots, LL Bean field jackets, corduroy trousers, Ivy caps, tennis sweaters, Sperry CVOs,... Hold on. What am I talking about!? Yes, I can. I love all of that. Even the button-down collar! Il Signor Crsipone, you almost had me leaving the fold!


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## Il Signor Crispone (Jul 18, 2014)

Duvel said:


> Yeah, I know. Aren't those collars with the roll and everything just awful. I can't do OCBDs, either, or chinos, surcingle belts, 3/2 blazers and jackets, regimental stripe neckties, Shetland crewneck sweaters, LL Bean blucher mocs, desert boots... Hold on. What am I talking about!? Yes, I can. Il Signor Crsipone, you almost had me leaving the fold!


I'm not keen on most of those things either, I'm afraid. Apart from chinos of course, which are the default casual wrapping for the Crispone underpinnings once the moleskins have been returned to napthalene. And those belts, which I quite like, although do not possess. Perhaps something to treat myself to this summer.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

If that's true, what are you doing in the forum? I don't mean to sound dismissive; it's just that those things are pretty central to the trad/Ivy look, no?



Il Signor Crispone said:


> I'm not keen on most of those things either, I'm afraid. Apart from chinos of course, which are the default casual wrapping for the Crispone underpinnings once the moleskins have been returned to napthalene. And those belts, which I quite like, although do not possess. Perhaps something to treat myself to this summer.


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## Il Signor Crispone (Jul 18, 2014)

Duvel said:


> If that's true, what are you doing in the forum? I don't mean to sound dismissive; it's just that those things are pretty central to the trad/Ivy look, no?


True, but it doesn't cater exclusively for that look. Plus I haven't been banned from this forum, so it has that in its favour as well.

EDIT:

Sorry, I can see that by 'forum' you meant this particular sub-forum. I hadn't noticed that this was the trad forum, I just see new posts using the new posts button at the top, rather than approaching them through the sub-forum.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Ah ha! Well, that's a horse of another color! 

And I didn't mean to imply that you were not welcome here. I just thought it was a little curious that you didn't love what we love.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

Duvel said:


> Ah ha! Well, that's a horse of another color!
> 
> And I didn't mean to imply that you were not welcome here. I just thought it was a little curious that you didn't love what we love.


According to your prior post, you won't wear leather dress shoes. That would be a minority opinion and one that does not really make sense to me.


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## lord root of the matter (Mar 31, 2014)

Interesting thread. I don't post much as I'm still relatively new and trying to figure things out.

I'll try anything but there are a few things I am not fond of:

Patch GTH blazer - my wife say they look good on me but, I don't know if I can ignore all the commentary.
Patch trousers (I have tons of the madras shorts)
Bit-Loafers (too 70's for me)
Chukka's - that style is also too 70's for me
Skinny/thin ties - (I just can't)

I'm still on the fence with bow ties. I've never worn one so I don't know. Seems like only a few people can pull them off. Not sure if I'm one of those people.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

WildCard22 said:


> Don't know if it counts as a staple, but the adidas "stan smith" in green doesn't appeal to me at all.


Now that hurts...that really hurts! LOL. 

PS: I do have a pair, but cannot honestly claim that they see much wear time.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

lord root of the matter said:


> I'm still on the fence with bow ties. I've never worn one so I don't know. Seems like only a few people can pull them off. Not sure if I'm one of those people.


There is exactly one way to find out for sure. I'm sure there are members that could send you one, myself included.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

efdll said:


> Re #6
> [. . .] From a sartorial point of view, the appropriation of the Pendleton shirt, collar buttoned and others open, as well as chinos customized at the cuff, by the so-called _chol_o set happened long ago. I don't even know if it's still in style, though I must admit it's one cool look. In any case, I see nothing odd in this cross-pollination that lent a raffish yet austere panache to these shirts. [. . . .]


Don't forget the tangerine-colored cap-toe bals that go with the iconic _cholo_ garb. Stacy-Adams made these shoes originally. Nowadays, they're made to the old specifications in Mexico for Penner's, a men's store here in San Antonio. They sell more of these than anyone else:

https://www.pennersinc.com/shoes/stacy-penner-s/stacy-penner-cap-toe-tangerine.html

Believe it or not, these shoes look great with a pair of well-starched khaki pants.

Here's the story from another angle. Only the last link, to Penner's, works:


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Okay.

But I never said I won't. I just don't prefer to, generally. I don't like them. When I have to wear dress shoes, they are, in fact, leather.



Nobleprofessor said:


> According to your prior post, you won't wear leather dress shoes. That would be a minority opinion and one that does not really make sense to me.


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## 123abc (Oct 3, 2014)

Fading Fast said:


> By scarves, do you mean a wool scarf for the winter or a silk - more stylish - one? I ask because I don't even think of a wool scarf as Trad or not Trad or optional when its cold enough.


Yeah, I mean a wool scarf to keep myself warm in winter. Just hate the look, not sure why. I have a nice cashmere overcoat that has lapels which can be flipped up and buttoned if it's so cold out I need the extra protection. Never wore one, probably never will. My wife looks really cute wearing them though ....


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

123abc said:


> Yeah, I mean a wool scarf to keep myself warm in winter. Just hate the look, not sure why. I have a nice cashmere overcoat that has lapels which can be flipped up and buttoned if it's so cold out I need the extra protection. Never wore one, probably never will. My wife looks really cute wearing them though ....


Of course, there is nothing wrong with your view if it works for you, I just never thought of a scarf as any different form gloves - when it is cold enough, I put it on like I do boots when it snows. That said, there are basic scarfs - a grey wool one is my go to - and stylish scarfs from school colors to silk paisleys, etc. I can see the later not being one's taste, but the former to me is utilitarian function. Again, though, this stuff is almost all opinion.

Living in NYC, I need a scarf on a lot of winter days - kudos to you for getting along without one in very cold Pittsford. I have no doubt you are made of tougher stuff than my 150lbs frame is.


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## lord root of the matter (Mar 31, 2014)

Tempest said:


> There is exactly one way to find out for sure. I'm sure there are members that could send you one, myself included.


I suppose you are correct sir.
Should I check out the exchange? 
(Then there's the matter of learning to tie one...) Maybe, I'm hopeless.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

No suits? Good lord. I think these gentleman just haven't found the right suit.



mjo_1 said:


> I'm with you on both of these. I have bad memories of baggy, near capri length A&F madras shorts. Luckily I never owned a pair.
> 
> A fedora, etc. on someone under 60 plays right into the reddit gamer/neckbeard stereotype lol


Madras isn't just any cotton with a plaid on it. And trust me, A&F was not making madras shorts any time during its current incarnation. They're too cheap for that.

Also, if you're wearing said hat with the proper attire it doesn't play into those stereotypes.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Jovan said:


> No suits? Good lord. I think these gentleman just haven't found the right suit.
> 
> Madras isn't just any cotton with a plaid on it. And trust me, A&F was not making madras shorts anytime during its current incarnation. They're too cheap for that.
> 
> Also, if you're wearing said hat with the proper attire it doesn't play into those stereotypes.


Agreed, that's pretty sweeping. Those twee trilbys, OK. But _any_ hat?


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I have to say, I'm not into suits, either.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

Duvel said:


> I have to say, I'm not into suits, either.


I think that despite both of us having a sarcastic sense of humor, we are not much alike. You don't like leather dress shoes and suits AND most of my money spent on clothes goes to shoes and suits! of course, I wear a suit 4-5 days a week. So, I guess its just different needs and taste.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

open toed sandals, they look disgusting wearing them walking down the street.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

To each his own, no? Nothing wrong with a good-looking suit. I can't even explain my aversion, really. I don't hate them; they just don't interest me the way other options do. I'd rather do the sport coat/blazer look. Then again, most people I know think that I'm wearing a suit when I'm wearing my tweed jacket and some chinos.



Nobleprofessor said:


> I think that despite both of us having a sarcastic sense of humor, we are not much alike. You don't like leather dress shoes and suits AND most of my money spent on clothes goes to shoes and suits! of course, I wear a suit 4-5 days a week. So, I guess its just different needs and taste.


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## Dave (Mar 17, 2003)

I've never liked boat shoes myself. I've always thought they're ugly.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Dave said:


> I've never liked boat shoes myself. I've always thought they're ugly.


Dave, I honestly think that's why people get attached to them.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Agreed, that's pretty sweeping. Those twee trilbys, OK. But _any_ hat?


Certain hats I'm not into. Bowlers, for example. (I know, I know... the people who are into vintage clothing and proper black tie attire would skewer me.) But I think it's unfair to compare the stereotype of those MRA/brony/neckbeard guys with the stereotype of a proper English gentleman.



Nobleprofessor said:


> I think that despite both of us having a sarcastic sense of humor, we are not much alike. You don't like leather dress shoes and suits AND most of my money spent on clothes goes to shoes and suits! of course, I wear a suit 4-5 days a week. So, I guess its just different needs and taste.


This is a reasonable viewpoint. But... no suits? This saddens me. I'd like to see Duvel wearing a natural coloured linen, 3/2 sack suit during the summer with a white OCBD and knit tie. To me, that's one of those penultimate "refined casual" looks.

Then again, I think even Christian Chensvold of Ivy Style doesn't wear suits, only sport coats.



Howard said:


> open toed sandals, they look disgusting wearing them walking down the street.


It's funny how many things we dislike on men here yet would have zero problem with on women. Skinny jeans, open toed shoes, etc. I think so long as men take good care of their feet there's no problem wearing sandals in the proper environment. The beach or pool, for example.


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## YoungSoulRebel (Feb 10, 2015)

Im totally with you on the suit front. Besides not having to wear a suit very often, I just do not think that I look good in one. God knows that I have tried MANY different styles, shapes, and patterns, but I am more of blazer/sportcoat man myself.



Duvel said:


> To each his own, no? Nothing wrong with a good-looking suit. I can't even explain my aversion, really. I don't hate them; they just don't interest me the way other options do. I'd rather do the sport coat/blazer look. Then again, most people I know think that I'm wearing a suit when I'm wearing my tweed jacket and some chinos.


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## ThePopinjay (Nov 12, 2013)

Duvel said:


> Then again, most people I know think that I'm wearing a suit when I'm wearing my tweed jacket and some chinos.


Yup, I get a lot of this.

Just a thought, and not in reference to the suits comment or anything else I read-
I think I'll wear just about anything traditional, I try to have an open mind. I find, sartorially, it's very easy to box yourself into a very boring corner if you go around thinking a certain thing looks wrong on you or you just completely write something off. I guess it'd be fine if you don't like clothes, but for someone who has a true passion for men's clothing I would think you would want to try new thing, to expand your look and learn as much as you can.

That being said: Maybe argyle, never been a fan of argyle. But even that could change I guess.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

This is very smart. I agree. This is something I always need to remind myself about, not only in clothing--I need to remember to stay open-minded, as much as possible.



ThePopinjay said:


> Yup, I get a lot of this.
> 
> Just a thought, and not in reference to the suits comment or anything else I read-
> I think I'll wear just about anything traditional, I try to have an open mind. I find, sartorially, it's very easy to box yourself into a very boring corner if you go around thinking a certain thing looks wrong on you or you just completely write something off. I guess it'd be fine if you don't like clothes, but for someone who has a true passion for men's clothing I would think you would want to try new thing, to expand your look and learn as much as you can.
> ...


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## YoungSoulRebel (Feb 10, 2015)

Used to feel the same about argyle, (except socks) but now its a go to print for me. I find the older i get, the more i experiment (with admittedly mixed results haha).



ThePopinjay said:


> Yup, I get a lot of this.
> 
> Just a thought, and not in reference to the suits comment or anything else I read-
> I think I'll wear just about anything traditional, I try to have an open mind. I find, sartorially, it's very easy to box yourself into a very boring corner if you go around thinking a certain thing looks wrong on you or you just completely write something off. I guess it'd be fine if you don't like clothes, but for someone who has a true passion for men's clothing I would think you would want to try new thing, to expand your look and learn as much as you can.
> ...


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Duvel said:


> This is very smart. I agree. This is something I always need to remind myself about, not only in clothing--I need to remember to stay open-minded, as much as possible.


My tastes have changed so much in the last few years, I'm sure I'd be wrong if I predicted that you'd never catch me dead in X. I just bought an ancient madder bowtie! My first bowtie!


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## ThePopinjay (Nov 12, 2013)

SlideGuitarist said:


> I just bought an ancient madder bowtie! My first bowtie!


I didn't start wearing bows until last year! Mine wasn't a case of not liking them however, I just couldn't figure how to tie the dang thing. Weirdly enough, it was my girlfriend that taught me how.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

ThePopinjay said:


> That being said: Maybe argyle, never been a fan of argyle. But even that could change I guess.


Roycru yesterday in bowtie and argyles: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...t-Are-You-Wearing-Today&p=1672919#post1672919. Maybe you get nervier when you get older? At some point you really have to figure, what the hell.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Duvel said:


> ...Then again, most people I know think that I'm wearing a suit when I'm wearing my tweed jacket and some chinos.


What does this mean - do people not know the difference between a suit and a sport coat and slacks? Or are they just kidding you because in a sport coat and slacks you are still more dressed up than most?


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

The former. They call any outfit with a jacket, tie, and decent pants a suit.



Fading Fast said:


> What does this mean - do people not know the difference between a suit and a sport coat and slacks? Or are they just kidding you because in a sport coat and slacks you are still more dressed up than most?


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Duvel said:


> The former. They call any outfit with a jacket, tie, and decent pants a suit.


Wow, we really have come a far way.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Duvel said:


> The former. They call any outfit with a jacket, tie, and decent pants a suit.


I can confirm this from my workplace. Sigh.


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## ruvort (Mar 11, 2014)

Duvel said:


> The former. They call any outfit with a jacket, tie, and decent pants a suit.


Yepp I run into this issue as well. Sometimes I just have to nod and not comment.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Duvel said:


> This is very smart. I agree. This is something I always need to remind myself about, not only in clothing--I need to remember to stay open-minded, as much as possible.


So this means you're going to buy a patch madras jacket now, right? :biggrin:


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm going to stay open-minded about it, at least. 



orange fury said:


> So this means you're going to buy a patch madras jacket now, right? :biggrin:


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## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

This thread has really gotten interesting, I am wondering if there is any one (trad) item, besides some form of chino/khakis and striped ties that we all can agree that we would wear.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

fred johnson said:


> This thread has really gotten interesting, I am wondering if there is any one (trad) item, besides some form of chino/khakis and striped ties that we all can agree that we would wear.


Is there an American on this thread who wouldn't wear button-down shirts? Or loafers? I can't imagine anyone would refuse to wear shell PTBs if he could afford them.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Button-collar shirts are so ubiquitous that I would think it a staple even for those who are not "into" clothes. Of course, these days, traditional men's attire is basically a Stealers jersey and old jeans.


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## ThePopinjay (Nov 12, 2013)

Fading Fast said:


> Wow, we really have come a far way.


I have this problem daily. I was discussing it with a girl and I said it's like saying "I like your dress" to a girl when she's wearing a skirt. They're not interchangeable! 
But I would never correct a stranger. Nod and say thank you and carry on. That's what I do anyways.


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## ThePopinjay (Nov 12, 2013)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Roycru yesterday in bowtie and argyles: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...t-Are-You-Wearing-Today&p=1672919#post1672919. Maybe you get nervier when you get older? At some point you really have to figure, what the hell.


Billax had a post along this theme on his blog. Something about becoming more of a peacock as he ages.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Exactly. Smile, and carry on.



ThePopinjay said:


> I have this problem daily. I was discussing it with a girl and I said it's like saying "I like your dress" to a girl when she's wearing a skirt. They're not interchangeable!
> But I would never correct a stranger. Nod and say thank you and carry on. That's what I do anyways.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

ThePopinjay said:


> ...But I would never correct a stranger. Nod and say thank you and carry on. That's what I do anyways.


My seniority here is a mixed blessing, but it does let me say, when asked, "Why are you dressed up?" with "Because I'm at work." Pause for a beat. I can be a jerk.

Feel free to distribute:


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Thank you for the visual aid, Slide. I will employ it judiciously. 

"Why are you dressed up?" still throws me, every time I hear it. Sometimes it is joined by "Are you interviewing?" So, lately, I've taken to answering with something like this: "Well, yes, I am interviewing today." "You are?!" "Yes, I am. I'm interviewing candidates for your position. Didn't you hear?"

It got a lot of laughs the first couple of times I used it. People are learning not to ask me.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

ThePopinjay said:


> I have this problem daily. I was discussing it with a girl and I said it's like saying "I like your dress" to a girl when she's wearing a skirt. They're not interchangeable!
> But I would never correct a stranger. Nod and say thank you and carry on. That's what I do anyways.


Maybe we simply are losing a meaningful part of the population that even owns one suit. In NYC, suits are still standard at weddings, special church days and funerals. That said, when I've gone to funerals in the suburbs, the non-NYC attendees have - for the most part - not been in suits (which really surprised me the first time it happened). Weddings are more mixed, but I still see a lot of suits at them in the suburb weddings I've gone to.

Growing up, we were far from well off, but I had a sport coat and dress slacks from an early age as you had to for events like above and it was noted that "when you got older" you'll have to get a suit. And while it seems that most parents on this site are raising their children with an understanding of these basics, perhaps a large slice of our population isn't so the distinction between a suit and a sport coat and slacks is being lost.

Absolutely amazing if that has happened. And like you, of course, I would not correct someone as that would be rude especially since it seems, it might be becoming normal not to know.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

My experience growing up sounds similar to yours, Fading. My father was a high school teacher, my mom was the homemaker, and so we had a respectable family income but we were hardly affluent. Nevertheless, we were brought up to wear the proper clothes for the occasion. It didn't take much for me to get this right, because I enjoyed it. I remember waking up one Easter morning when I was in first grade to get ready for our drive to see my grandparents. I got into my little kid chinos, my white shirt, a bow-tie (!), and my new blue blazer, and proudly strode in to my parents' bedroom to wake them up and let them know I was all ready to go. I think my father swore, my mother groaned, and then I heard from my mother, "What in the name of heaven are you doing?! It's 2 in the morning!"


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

What floors me is that my peers, who had to have been brought up much like me, no longer adhere to standards of dress for the occasion. It is unbelievable what I see them wearing at funerals and weddings.


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## ThePopinjay (Nov 12, 2013)

Fading Fast said:


> Growing up, we were far from well off, but I had a sport coat and dress slacks from an early age as you had to for events like above and it was noted that "when you got older" you'll have to get a suit. And while it seems that most parents on this site are raising their children with an understanding of these basics, perhaps a large slice of our population isn't so the distinction between a suit and a sport coat and slacks is being lost.
> 
> Absolutely amazing if that has happened. And like you, of course, I would not correct someone as that would be rude especially since it seems, it might be becoming normal not to know.


The weird thing is most guys I know do have suits, for fraternity events, etc. but they just don't make the distinction.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Duvel said:


> My experience growing up sounds similar to yours, Fading. My father was a high school teacher, my mom was the homemaker, and so we had a respectable family income but we were hardly affluent. Nevertheless, we were brought up to wear the proper clothes for the occasion. It didn't take much for me to get this right, because I enjoyed it. I remember waking up one Easter morning when I was in first grade to get ready for our drive to see my grandparents. I got into my little kid chinos, my white shirt, a bow-tie (!), and my new blue blazer, and proudly strode in to my parents' bedroom to wake them up and let them know I was all ready to go. I think my father swore, my mother groaned, and then I heard from my mother, "What in the name of heaven are you doing?! It's 2 in the morning!"


Great story. Most ridiculously early wake-up stories by kids have to do with Christmas, but I love that you just wanted to get dressed up for Easter. It's great that Easter is still, at least for some, a dress up holiday - more so than most holidays anyway.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If I may interrupt this annual "no one understands us" ***** fest... why not just tell the truth? It's a lot better than being snarky or coming up with a clever "excuse". 

"Why the suit?"

"I just felt like it today."

"Oh. Why wear a suit when there's no occasion for it?"

"I'll explain why over coffee."

A more positive opportunity for educating the alleged "unwashed masses", is it not?


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I like that, jovan. Kudos for being the grownup around here.  However, if I ended with that line and I was speaking with a female employee, I might be brought up on sexual harassment charges. I'm not kidding.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Jovan said:


> ...why not just tell the truth?


Jovan, I don't like the "What's the world coming to?" threads any more than you, despite being significantly closer to "You kids get off my lawn!" age. I apologize for repeating my little bit o' snark here out of context. In truth:

* I am _very significantly_ older than the other engineers here, and I began to feel a need to present myself to the world outside of the office as a little more put-together.
* My company attempted to export the Palo Alto dress code to DC, with the unfortunate effect that many clients here considered us presumptuous. In fact I was singled out for petty tyranny by a gov't program manager, of which I want to avoid any repetition. 
* There is now a little "community" at my company of guys who exchange shopping tips and such, and I helped arrange a corporate discount at Brook Bros. I was the first engineer in DC, and people do expect me informally to be a leader, so I do want to set an example, though not a rule.

Finally, there is a fair bit of trash-talking at work, which I mostly enjoy. Depending on who's asking, I might take pains to explain the sports jacket as merely the evolution of my personal preference, which is mostly true. I wouldn't surprise an unsuspecting new colleague, for example, with my rehearsed sarcasm. I dress my kids up, as you've probably seen, but I've also explained to them that others' sartorial choices are none of their business, that we do it because we like to.

To actually get back to, ah, the topic at hand, I have no need for items of clothing that seem to me to go beyond my requirement to look professional: dirty bucks, emblematic ties, tassel loafers. They look great on others, but they're just not "me." Not yet, anyway.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

"Oh. Why wear a suit when there's no occasion for it?"

The occasion is that I'm here today, above ground.

Or: The occasion is that I am spending time with you.


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## Natty Beau (Apr 29, 2014)

Jovan said:


> If I may interrupt this annual "no one understands us" ***** fest... why not just tell the truth? It's a lot better than being snarky or coming up with a clever "excuse".
> 
> "Why the suit?"
> 
> ...


I'm currently the only guy at my youth-oriented/express yourself company who wears a suit. I was just honest with people. I told them after years driving forklifts to help pay for college, and working in the merchant marine when jobs were scarce after 2008, I felt lucky to be going to work in a nice office and coming home with clean clothes every day, and dressing up a little is just my way of showing gratitude.

By day 3, they were over it and now we're friends. Occasionally, I overhear colleagues defending my choice of attire to new hires, giving them the explanation I gave. It seems to hold some respect.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

It's weird to hear that any of us has to "defend" his choice of attire, when we're the ones who are dressing better. Weird.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm a medical writer, and I wore this rig today during a visit to a hospital for a patient interview. I was early and sat on a couch next to an area where maternity nurses congregated. The reception desk knew the purpose of my visit, but not the nurses. After a few minutes, one of the nurses came up to me and asked if was there to conduct a ward inspection since I looked so "official." This made me laugh, since I wasn't even wearing a suit.

One of my standard answers to the question "Why are you so dressed up?" is "That's how I roll." People usually chuckle and let it go at that. Another good retort might be "Why are you dressed like a sloppy 13-year-old kid?" But I suppose being a smartass isn't Trad.

I recall a random woman last summer asking me if I had just attended a wedding because I was wearing a bow tie. I said, "nope, that's just how I roll." She laughed out loud and said "well, I _like _how you roll."


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Great answer, gamma.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I don't look avuncular, nor do I want to, but it does seem like younger woman at work are more comfortable talking to me when I look my age, rather than dressing like someone fresh out of college, let alone like a middle-aged man who lives in his parents' basement. Conversely, I have reason not to go overboard.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

This is another excellent point. I've noticed that there is more ease, maybe a little more respect, from female coworkers, when I wear a tie and a jacket. I look respectable, therefore I must be, that kind of thing.



SlideGuitarist said:


> I don't look avuncular, nor do I want to, but it does seem like younger woman at work are more comfortable talking to me when I look my age, rather than dressing like someone fresh out of college, let alone like a middle-aged man who lives in his parents' basement. Conversely, I have reason not to go overboard.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

Duvel said:


> The former. They call any outfit with a jacket, tie, and decent pants a suit.


a couple of weeks ago a client of mine was being deposed. I asked him to make sure he was dressed up. He said he had several suits he could wear. So, I told him just to look nice and conservative. Its important to the context to note that my client is a 26 year old former gang member. That is not an exaggeration. He was actually in a gang. The fact that he is alive and NOT in the gang and a relatively productive member of society is a story worthy of one of those after school specials. 
So, he shows up for his deposition wearing a bright red shirt, black slacks, black tie and cowboy boots. The sad thing is compared to what he was wearing previously, this was a huge improvement. When we took a break he asked if I liked his "suit." I told him that I was glad he dressed up. AND I really was glad. He proceeded to tell me he probably had about 20 of these "suits."

This young man did not grow up like any of us. His mother was shot to death by the police. His father is in jail and at 26, he has somewhere between 6-9 children. So, the fact that he called his shirt, tie, and pants a suit was just fine with me. I still admire the fact that he got out of the gang and is alive.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Jovan said:


> It's funny how many things we dislike on men here yet would have zero problem with on women. Skinny jeans, open toed shoes, etc. I think so long as men take good care of their feet there's no problem wearing sandals in the proper environment. The beach or pool, for example.


I have a big problem with skinny jeans on a lot of women, to be honest. And jeggings. I think there is a very narrow set of women who look good in them (in the same way there is a very narrow set of men who look good in them). Women who are extremely skinny end up looking much more gangly and, how do I put this politely, women with a high thigh to ankle ratio end up looking like walking dreidl's.

Of course, I'm with you in terms of your underlying point. The real question is, ultimately, does Fran Lebowitz wear an Anderson & Sheppard suit as well as Fred Astaire did?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I have my preferences in what I like women to wear and women have their own preferences in what they like men to wear. Such as my girlfriend thinking I need to ditch the few pleated trousers I own entirely. So really... what I like them wearing makes no difference and I feel no need to dictate it. She'll no sooner wear a pleated skirt than I will a royal blue or burgundy dress shirt.

Also I'm just a lot more tolerant than I used to be. Being a snob never got me anywhere in life.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

mjo_1 said:


> I'm with you on both of these. I have bad memories of baggy, near capri length A&F madras shorts. Luckily I never owned a pair.
> 
> A fedora, etc. on someone under 60 plays right into the reddit gamer/neckbeard stereotype lol


Exactly right on the shorts. When I see them, my brain seems to get fogged over by that long-lingering cologne they used to coat shopping malls and 15 year old boys in. Even if I thought flip flops were great (I don't), I still couldn't wear them for the same reason. It just all seems to circle back to below-the-knee, heavy, heavy, twill cargo shorts, I guess.

Regarding hats, I didn't want to say it first, but, yes, a little too.... "m'lady"


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Jovan said:


> I have my preferences in what I like women to wear and women have their own preferences in what they like men to wear. Such as my girlfriend thinking I need to ditch the few pleated trousers I own entirely. So really... what I like them wearing makes no difference and I feel no need to dictate it. She'll no sooner wear a pleated skirt than I will a royal blue or burgundy dress shirt.
> 
> Also I'm just a lot more tolerant than I used to be. Being a snob never got me anywhere in life.


Good way to put it, and I agree. Clothes are a personal thing and I like what I like but I like people of all genders for so much more than the clothes they buy. Similarly, they can think what they'd like about my clothing choices because I don't care at all.

Case in point, my girlfriend wears mostly black and mostly vintage clothes, or else she shops at places like Derek Lam, Acne, etc. and absolutely hates my favorite suit - a thrifted Pressidential - and refers to it as "the elephant leg suit" and my best friend owns exactly one non-athletic-wear jacket: a faux-shearling-lined Levi's denim jacket, which he loves to wear with a pair of jeans that are very-nearly matching.


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## Andersdad (Oct 23, 2006)

gamma68 said:


> One of my standard answers to the question "Why are you so dressed up?" is "That's how I roll." ."


Love this!


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

Tilton said:


> Regarding hats, I didn't want to say it first, but, yes, a little too.... "m'lady"


Haha, yes!


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I wouldn't worry too much about what your client wore to a deposition. But, if the case, whatever it is, goes to trial, you should sit him down,' splain a few things and introduce him to the concept of a navy blazer, button-down white shirt, maroon tie and grey slacks. If necessary, take him to the clothier yourself. The cowboy look might be fine when it's only lawyers and a court reporter, but it won't fly so well in front of a jury. Especially in Kansas.



Nobleprofessor said:


> a couple of weeks ago a client of mine was being deposed. I asked him to make sure he was dressed up. He said he had several suits he could wear. So, I told him just to look nice and conservative. Its important to the context to note that my client is a 26 year old former gang member. That is not an exaggeration. He was actually in a gang. The fact that he is alive and NOT in the gang and a relatively productive member of society is a story worthy of one of those after school specials.
> So, he shows up for his deposition wearing a bright red shirt, black slacks, black tie and cowboy boots. The sad thing is compared to what he was wearing previously, this was a huge improvement. When we took a break he asked if I liked his "suit." I told him that I was glad he dressed up. AND I really was glad. He proceeded to tell me he probably had about 20 of these "suits."
> 
> This young man did not grow up like any of us. His mother was shot to death by the police. His father is in jail and at 26, he has somewhere between 6-9 children. So, the fact that he called his shirt, tie, and pants a suit was just fine with me. I still admire the fact that he got out of the gang and is alive.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Jovan said:


> I have my preferences in what I like women to wear and women have their own preferences in what they like men to wear. Such as my girlfriend thinking I need to ditch the few pleated trousers I own entirely. So really... what I like them wearing makes no difference and I feel no need to dictate it. She'll no sooner wear a pleated skirt than I will a royal blue or burgundy dress shirt.
> 
> Also I'm just a lot more tolerant than I used to be. Being a snob never got me anywhere in life.


I agree with you about 95%. My wife and I have some influence over what the other wears and we have informal vetoes over purchases (besides obvious household budget considerations and whatnot). I still think it's good for people to maintain a basic level of coverage. I'm not talking about levels of formality or anything, I'm just talking about people with their ass hanging out in public. Nine times out of ten, I don't need to see that.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Jovan said:


> I have my preferences in what I like women to wear and women have their own preferences in what they like men to wear. Such as my girlfriend thinking I need to ditch the few pleated trousers I own entirely....


My girlfriend likes both pleats and flat fronts, but when I used to work in an office, I found that a lot of women - over the last five years - came to hate pleats. So much so, that more than one said to me on days when I was wearing flat front pants that I should stop wearing the pleated pants because I looked so much better in flat fronts (read - you don't look good in pleats).

My explanation for this phenomenon is that many women are more fashion focused then men (many of the women at work dressed very fashionably) and they probably carried that viewpoint over to their assessment of men's clothing. My guess, if current men's fashion was in favor of pleats, the same women would have said the exact opposite thing to me.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I think, rightly or wrongly, pleated pants have a "fuddy duddy" connotation in the public imagination.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Duvel said:


> I think, rightly or wrongly, pleated pants have a "fuddy duddy" connotation in the public imagination.


Exactly, but it is all driven by the fashion of the moment. It will take time, but we might still be a live to see the next fashion revival of the pleat which is when the "how boring, staid and old-fashion all those flat front pants look" narrative will begin.

While tongue in cheek about the "we might still be alive" comment, I do think the fashion industry has so embedded the flat-front gospel in this generation of men (and women thinking about men's fashion), that it will take longer than usual for the fashion wheel to turn back to pleats.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't know about that. To me, the flat front chino always has looked solidly collegiate for some time, even when pleated fronts were more in fashion, i.e., I think they are more traditional.



Fading Fast said:


> Exactly, but it is all driven by the fashion of the moment. It will take time, but we might still be a live to see the next fashion revival of the pleat which is when the "how boring, staid and old-fashion all those flat front pants look" narrative will begin.
> 
> While tongue in cheek about the "we might still be alive" comment, I do think the fashion industry has so embedded the flat-front gospel in this generation of men (and women thinking about men's fashion), that it will take longer than usual for the fashion wheel to turn back to pleats.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Duvel said:


> I don't know about that. To me, the flat front chino always has looked solidly collegiate for some time, even when pleated fronts were more in fashion, i.e., I think they are more traditional.


Fair point, and tuxedo pants will always only look right as flat fronts - but the dominant fashion narrative can switch and at some point it will switch to "hip, young, pleats." You are correct that flat fronts in certain things have a timeless quality, but if the the fashion wheel turns hard to pleats, we will be seeing five version of pleated chinos to every one flat front version in the store. And that is when young women will be commenting to old men like me that you look better in your pleated pants and should get rid of those old flat front ones.


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## Natty Beau (Apr 29, 2014)

Fading Fast said:


> Fair point, and tuxedo pants will always only look right as flat fronts...


I think it's a matter of taste. Surely, pleats are more traditional on dinner clothes.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Technically pants in general started as flat front! So... if by "more traditional" you mean "came first" pleats are a more recent innovation.

Enough with the plain front versus pleats crap though. It's about time darted fronts get their spotlight.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Which is what the first inch or so of a pleat is; sewn together tight as a dart, then opens with a boom.

I like pleated pants, prefer them, if they're forward facing and closed up for the first two inches. Most do not come that way. But a needle, thread and a 2-hour baseball game on the radio can change all that.



Duvel said:


> To me, *the flat front chino always has looked solidly collegiate* for some time, even when pleated fronts were more in fashion, i.e., I think they are more traditional.


Why would you wanna look collegiate at 50, or whatever age you've said you are?


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I have never been told by anyone that they liked the pleated pants I wore (I wore some in the 70s.) However, I did receive compliments on my flat front pants.



Fading Fast said:


> Fair point, and tuxedo pants will always only look right as flat fronts - but the dominant fashion narrative can switch and at some point it will switch to "hip, young, pleats." You are correct that flat fronts in certain things have a timeless quality, but if the the fashion wheel turns hard to pleats, we will be seeing five version of pleated chinos to every one flat front version in the store. And that is when young women will be commenting to old men like me that you look better in your pleated pants and should get rid of those old flat front ones.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Fading Fast said:


> Fair point, and *tuxedo pants will always only look right as flat fronts *- but the dominant fashion narrative can switch and at some point it will switch to "hip, young, pleats." You are correct that flat fronts in certain things have a timeless quality, but if the the fashion wheel turns hard to pleats, we will be seeing five version of pleated chinos to every one flat front version in the store. And that is when young women will be commenting to old men like me that you look better in your pleated pants and should get rid of those old flat front ones.


Uh oh. I did not know that. Is that right? I don't even remember seeing a flat front option when I bought my tux. Should I look to replace my pleated tux pants with a flat fronted pair?


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

FLCracka said:


> Uh oh. I did not know that. Is that right? I don't even remember seeing a flat front option when I bought my tux. Should I look to replace my pleated tux pants with a flat fronted pair?


I haven't bought a tuxedo in over a decade, but have bought a few in my life and the only option at the time - and this was in the '80s and '90s when suits with pleated pants abounded - was flat front. Also, I thought the history of tuxedo was flat front.

That said, if I am wrong, I will gladly admit it as I am no expert - this is one that I sincerely didn't even think was up for debate - but that just go to show how little I know.

Jovan, OCBD, and other resident experts - any input?


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Peak and Pine said:


> But a needle, thread and a 2-hour baseball game on the radio can change all that.


Wait, you're hand-stitching pleats close? Is the stitching visible or is this from the back?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

gamma68 said:


> I'm a medical writer, and I wore this rig today during a visit to a hospital for a patient interview. I was early and sat on a couch next to an area where maternity nurses congregated. The reception desk knew the purpose of my visit, but not the nurses. After a few minutes, one of the nurses came up to me and asked if was there to conduct a ward inspection since I looked so "official." This made me laugh, since I wasn't even wearing a suit.
> 
> One of my standard answers to the question "Why are you so dressed up?" is "That's how I roll." People usually chuckle and let it go at that. Another good retort might be "Why are you dressed like a sloppy 13-year-old kid?" But I suppose being a smartass isn't Trad.
> 
> I recall a random woman last summer asking me if I had just attended a wedding because I was wearing a bow tie. I said, "nope, that's just how I roll." She laughed out loud and said "well, I _like _how you roll."


You don't need a specific reason to dress good, you dress the way you like whether it be any occasion.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Tempest said:


> Wait, you're hand-stitching pleats close? Is the stitching visible or is this from the back?


No. Yes. I'm not sure what the question is.

Pleats arrive, usually, with the top closed up for a length extending c. 1-inch below the waist line. I just extend that to 2 or so inches. Less flair. I am not a tubby; I don't _need_ pleated pants, but a lot of mine, especially suit ones, come that way. The closing -- remember, it's just for one or two inches, you can't close the whole thing -- is done in the same way and position as the manufacturer did, from behind, tho it's easier to do it from the front, I have, it shows a little, but like pick stitching elsewhere, it can be a sign of_ meticulous attention to detail_ which, if you really knew how I operate, you'd find what I just said knee slappingly ludicrous.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Oh, if I'd actually gone and looked at one of the pair of single pleat trousers I own, I wouldn't have asked. For some reason I'm remembering some old chinos where they stitched the pleat down from the top so a sewn line was visible. How does it take an hour to sew an inch?


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

It doesn't.

It takes the length of a Marlins-beating-the-hell-out-of-Some-Other-Team ball game on the radio which is usually around _three_ hours. That's because, according to the phrase in the post to which you allude, the pleat direction is also being changed, reverse to forward, and to do that a great deal of the paint waist has to be undone and then put back togeher. That, and the fact that I'm really slow.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

In a way I applaud you for the patience to be such a diligent seamster. But part on me thinks a sewing machine would speed up this work.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Whatever part that is is not factoring in my aversion to things that go whrrrrrrrr.

However I do have a machine, it's new to me and me to it, my first, a Brother. It didn't come with a fire extinguisher, but I bought six anyway, just in case. Very handy for doing flat, straight things, narrowing a pant leg for example, as well as also narrowing the other one.

But for small, high, bunchy lumpy things with poor access -- like fiddling with a waistband and its lining and its covering and its belt loops -- by hand is my preference. The Brother bills itself as having maybe 24 different kinds of stitches, a button hole function, a trailer hitch, air bags, whatever; I don't know about any of that. I never read the book. I just turned it on and balls'ed it out. I do long straight lines with it, that's it. I can make garment bags with it, long straight lines; I sewed the cat's tail back on with it, long straight lines, etc.

But by-hand is my preference for most work. Tho if someone is short on patience or time or doesn't like listening to baseball on the radio on fire fly lit summer nights, then they probably don't wanna delve too deeply into this.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

I ask only because it is my current thoughts and plans, but can't you just turn the hand wheel manually and forgo the electric speed and noise?


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Well now you've got me thinking.

Maybe you can, turn the wheel by hand, but I'm not sure the fabric would advance properly. Maybe tho. I'm the last person you wanna ask about the workings of a sewing machine.

And I exaggerate my distaste for machinery; it's the hauling out, setting up, threading part that seems a chore and I don't have a dedicated work room for this stuff. My work area is me on a high stool next to a lap top, a radio, a cat and a refrigerator for quick eats, especially the quick eats. But sorta like getting a calculator because you want to skip the part about learning how to do 2 +2 = 4, it's probably a good idea to have a handle on the mechanics of hand sewing first. It's also quieter, except when you step on the cat and then it's not quiet at all.


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