# Religious Affiliation of Trad style - "P" in WASP?



## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

I'm very interested to know whether there is a correlation between religious affiliation and the Trads of this forum, since OPH and other sources explicitly link elements of the style with WASPdom. Does the "P" still apply? Did it ever? I speak as an Anglican.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm a Deist. I'm not Anglo-Saxton either.


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## Tom Bell-Drier (Mar 1, 2006)

the kennedys and the whole Camelot carry on regarded by many as the pinnacle of WASP were well known Roman Catholics, however they were from Irish immigrant stock so maybe the wasp thing goes back further maybe to the puritan founding fathers.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

I'm a (lapsed) Presbyterian of English/German/Scandinavian descent--technically pretty WASPy.

The only thing I really like about the subculture is the clothes.


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## AsherNM (Apr 3, 2006)

There are the Buckleys, who are Catholic. Also, the Flytes of Brideshead Revisited were 'papist' - I believe there was a small contingent of upper class Catholics in England. 

I'd guess that the religion of ancestors takes precedence over one's current religion.

It would be interesting to compare religion it to other factors - say comparing growing up Episcopalian in Tucson to being Jewish in New Haven (ring a bell?). I'd guess region wins out every time. There's also the obvious issue of social class.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

William F. Buckley and Daniel Patrick Moynihan are also Trad icons who are Catholic.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

Congregationalist. Nothing like the Church of the Pilgrims.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree that trad is more correlated to social class and region than religious affil.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

I thought of this again recently when I started reading some of the press for the WASP Style picture book that was mentioned in another thread or two. The book description on Amazon discusses the WASP style portrayed by Grace Kelly, Truman Capote, and Jacqueline Bouvier. 

Grace Kelly and Jackie Bouvier were Catholic. I have no idea if Capote was religious. I have not bought the book, but I understand that the Forward is written by Steven Stolman, who is Jewish, and his point is that WASP style transcends religion.

Buckley, Fitzgerald, O'Hara, Moynihan, Bundy and many others were/are Catholic. Lisa Birnbach is Jewish I think.

Some might say that other religions dressed more trad to try to fit in. Maybe that was correct. I have no problem in giving credit to the Protestant faiths for starting the style. Auchincloss, Bush and many many others were Protestant. I am not a WASP, but I admire the style.


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## Kingsfield (Nov 15, 2006)

What’s the difference between the different protestant sects? 

An Anglican is a Presbyterian with a trust fund. 
A Presbyterian is a Methodist with a college education. 
And a Methodist is a Baptist with shoes.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Roman Catholic of German/Austrian & a little French Canadian heritage, eh.

Brian


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Lutherans were left out of this poll. Why?


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

I do not proscribe to any particular denomination, but the closest would be Congregationalist.


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

bd79cc said:


> Lutherans were left out of this poll. Why?


Just oversight. Sorry. If I were trying to offer a defense, it would be that all the Protestant denominations I mention are British in origin (actually, all of them English except for Presbyterians)

Are you a Lutheran?


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

I 'voted' Baptist, though I think my taste in clothing is more of an accident than related to any kind of upbringing, be it religious, social, or political (or anything else, for that matter). I more just stumbled onto trad and found that it suited me perfectly.


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

Untilted said:


> I'm a Deist. I'm not Anglo-Saxton either.


Tilt, you gotta be kidding me, right? I mean, I know being in Charlottesvile makes you want to imbibe all the Jeffersonia and I'm guessing that you go to Mr. Jefferson's university, but deism is an extinct philosophy/religion. This is because, if one buys into its Enlightenment presuppositions about the nature of reason and epistemology, God -- even the watchmaker God -- is no longer applicable post-Darwin.

But all of this is probably moot b/c you're really not a deist, I'm guessing.


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

On another note, has anyone heard of Presbyterians (especially ministers) wearing tartan ties? I've noticed Mr. Rogers on TV (himself a Presbyterian minister) frequently wore them, and several other Presbyterian ministers I've seen.


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## Jolly Roger (Apr 26, 2007)

M. Charles said:


> On another note, has anyone heard of Presbyterians (especially ministers) wearing tartan ties? I've noticed Mr. Rogers on TV (himself a Presbyterian minister) frequently wore them, and several other Presbyterian ministers I've seen.


I haven't really paid attention to that, but it _is_ a Scots kirk.

I am Presbyterian myself.


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## Speas (Mar 11, 2004)

M. Charles said:


> Just oversight. Sorry. If I were trying to offer a defense, it would be that all the Protestant denominations I mention are British in origin (actually, all of them English except for Presbyterians)


Arguably, for one brief (shining) moment, us Presbyterians ran Westminster!


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

M. Charles said:


> Tilt, you gotta be kidding me, right? I mean, I know being in Charlottesvile makes you want to imbibe all the Jeffersonia and I'm guessing that you go to Mr. Jefferson's university, but deism is an extinct philosophy/religion. This is because, if one buys into its Enlightenment presuppositions about the nature of reason and epistemology, God -- even the watchmaker God -- is no longer applicable post-Darwin.
> 
> But all of this is probably moot b/c you're really not a deist, I'm guessing.


I'm actually pretty apathetic.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I like how you decided that Islam and Hinduism, about 2.5 billion people when added together, should be relegated to "other."


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## wannaB1L (Jul 30, 2006)

I am Roman Catholic- SSPX (Society of Saint Paul X) Church. They do not allow men into church unless they are wearing a tie, and proper shoes- they also recommend a man wear a coat. Women are not allowed to wear pants- they must wear a skirt or dress- the dress must not rise above the knees when they sit. Women must wear a hat or those lacy head covering while in church.


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> I like how you decided that Islam and Hinduism, about 2.5 billion people when added together, should be relegated to "other."


Approximately what percentage of those you know who wear American trad clothing subscribe to these religions? My guess is that the percentage would be quite small, maybe less than 1 or 2%, and that's why I made the poll out as I did.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

M. Charles said:


> Approximately what percentage of those you know who wear American trad clothing subscribe to these religions? My guess is that the percentage would be quite small, maybe less than 1 or 2%, and that's why I made the poll out as I did.


Go to LA, DC, NY, or Palm Beach, and you'll see a lot of Middle Eastern people dressed in traditional suits and shoes.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Fearful of going down on strikes.


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## wannaB1L (Jul 30, 2006)

my fathers family used to be Congregationalist- our family is an old stock (1600s) from Maine- but he and both his brothers are now Catholic- as the Congregasionalist Church has become quite illiberal.


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## Jolly Roger (Apr 26, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> I like how you decided that Islam and Hinduism, about 2.5 billion people when added together, should be relegated to "other."


rofl

_


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> Go to LA, DC, NY, or Palm Beach, and you'll see a lot of Middle Eastern people dressed in traditional suits and shoes.


Well, I mean no disrespect. But I've been around NYC a lot, never having seen a Middle Eastern person in a sack suit. Maybe I just don't frequent the right parts.

I've also spent 4 years of my life in London, and there one sees a lot more hijab, birkas, etc., on Middle Easterners than madras, Bass loafers, and 3-2 undarted jackets.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

M. Charles said:


> Well, I mean no disrespect. But I've been around NYC a lot, never having seen a Middle Eastern person in a sack suit.


Go to the really high end parts, or a jewelry store. London I didn't mention for a reason.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

^ Mitt Romney would not be pleased with the poll


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

mcarthur said:


> ^ Mitt Romney would not be pleased with the poll


Why not, because Mormons aren't included?


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> Go to the really high end parts, or a jewelry store. London I didn't mention for a reason.


I think the Upper East side counts as high end, my friend.


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## VC2000 (Feb 10, 2006)

I was in DC in law school and working on Capitol Hill when religion was more of a factor. (Today you rarely hear what religion anybody is say running for President other than the exception like Romney) 

What struck me at the time was that those that were not by defintion WASP almost tried harder to appear to be. Say the Kennedy clan attempted to look very old traditional New England WASP but weren't. They bent over backwards to appear to be so almost a nod to the conservative element. I suppose it was somewhat from the days of being in school when they were the outsiders or perhaps it was a political statement of being conservative old school rather than flashy liberal Democrats. (Liberal wasn't a negative word when I was there) But someone like Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. dressed rather flashy. The Cabot Lodges were the definition of WASP. Lodge was defeated in reelection by JFK for the Senate.

This is all history I suppose but it has stuck me in the past politically that those that dress the most trad sometimes aren't. Sen. Hatch dressed well but somewhat flashy with white collars and french cuffs with apparent cufflinks. He was very conservative. I suppose there are exceptions to everything and for the most part those in power in DC aren't that well dressed.


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## Foghorn (Feb 2, 2005)

Untilted said:


> I agree that trad is more correlated to social class and region than religious affil.


Gentlemen,
Tomorrow morning at the prayer breakfast, let us keep Untilted in our thoughts.
By the way, what, exactly, is this point of this thread?
Foghorn


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Foghorn said:


> By the way, what, exactly, is this point of this thread?


Well, do you know how hard it is to find repp-stripe phylacteries?

EGF


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Good thing this is the Trad Forum. Using the word "papist" will get one in the tall weeds in The Interchange. 

Word.


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> Good thing this is the Trad Forum. Using the word "papist" will get one in the tall weeds in The Interchange.
> 
> Word.


Funny you should mention this, since someone else mentioned previously that the Presbyterians briefly took over Westminster. They produced the 1648 Westminster Confession, which used the term papist and took a rather hard line:

"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God."

Before anyone else gets offended like my friend Mr. Marlinspike, I should say that I am not endorsing this statement. But we would also be kidding ourselves to deny that, even at midcentury, much of WASP culture had an element of anti-Catholicism left in it.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

M. Charles said:


> Funny you should mention this, since someone else mentioned previously that the Presbyterians briefly took over Westminster. They produced the 1648 Westminster Confession, which used the term papist and took a rather hard line:
> 
> "There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God."
> 
> Before anyone else gets offended like my friend Mr. Marlinspike, I should say that I am not endorsing this statement. *But we would also be kidding ourselves to deny that, even at midcentury, much of WASP culture had an element of anti-Catholicism left in it.*


I'm not a WASP, and I'm not interested in WASP culture. I just happen to like suits without darts.


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## Kent Wang (Aug 2, 2005)

wannaB1L said:


> I am Roman Catholic- SSPX (Society of Saint Paul X) Church. They do not allow men into church unless they are wearing a tie, and proper shoes- they also recommend a man wear a coat. Women are not allowed to wear pants- they must wear a skirt or dress- the dress must not rise above the knees when they sit. Women must wear a hat or those lacy head covering while in church.


I thought it was St. Pius? The last Paul being Paul VI who presided over Vatican II.


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

mcarthur^ Mitt Romney would not be pleased with the poll



M. Charles said:


> Why not, because Mormons aren't included?


As a "Mormon," or more correctly, member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS), I had no problem with the poll. I voted "other Christian."

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, attended Catholic schools until college, where I then attended Brigham Young University.

Not sure why Mitt Romney would not be pleased with the poll since it will take much more than Mormons for him to get elected. In fact, this may be the only part of the thread that I do find offensive, even if only slightly. Why does the religion of Romney have anything to do with his running for office?


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## Prepdad (Mar 10, 2005)

*From the Episcopal perspective...*

<An old joke>... to lighten this up a bit:

When crises arise:

Roman Catholics go to church and light candles
Presbyterians go to the library and find books on the subject
Methodists form a committee to study the issue
Baptists go to the bible for justification for what happened
Episcopalians bake hams.
<And, I might add, stop at the liquor store on their way home>


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> I'm not a WASP, and I'm not interested in WASP culture. I just happen to like suits without darts.


One could argue that suits without darts are an expression of WASP culture. It seems to me that being interested in Trad means being interested in a particular segment of WASPdom; but certainly you can ignore all of the non-sartorial WASP stuff if you want and still wear the Trad style.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

whomewhat said:


> Why does the religion of Romney have anything to do with his running for office?


Have you seen the e-mails that circulate saying not to vote for Barak Obama because he's Moslem (he isn't, btw)? People post them on internet forums, and the only flaw in that ever gets picked up on is that Obama is not Moslem...rarely does somebody say "even if he is, why does it matter."


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm from a mixed marriage. Mother is Catholic, father Presbyterian. I was raised in both, in a way. Would that make me a WASCP?


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

I'm getting the hell out of here and taking my post with me before this winds up in the interchange.


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## Silverado Squatter (Jul 19, 2005)

Was raised as an Episcopalian.

Am now a Presbyterian.

Got tired of sermons pushing social and political agendas from the pulpit. Can get that from the New York Times, if I wanted. 

Of course, they are better dressers over at the the old parish. . . .


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## wannaB1L (Jul 30, 2006)

Kent Wang said:


> I thought it was St. Pius? The last Paul being Paul VI who presided over Vatican II.


My bad- I just visited this Church a couple of towns over about 2 weeks ago. The P in SSPX is for Pius- which I know but was careless in posting. Sorries.


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## AsherNM (Apr 3, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> As a "Mormon," or more correctly, member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS), I had no problem with the poll. I voted "other Christian."


Thank you. Would people please stop being vicariously offended?



whomewhat said:


> Why does the religion of Romney have anything to do with his running for office?


Don't want to get into politics too much, but a man's religion is of course the source of many of his beliefs, which will in turn influence his decisions on government matters. Americans may ultimately disagree with these convictions. Perhaps it doesn't matter say, why a candidate supports Prohibition or polygamy, only that they do.



> Marlinspike's right - many of Middle Eastern and Indian birth or descent do wear the anglo/trad look:


Wow, that House of Saud must really be cranking out the kids to make it so that 'many' ME'ers wear trad/anglo. The vast majority of middle easterners I've met or seen, mostly Persians and Israelis, go for the antithesis of trad, with the chains and chesthair look, or Armani, etc. Usually not understated. Not always bad, but not trad. Middle Easterners definitely do not tend towards understatement (making them great fun, often enough) in character, and their sartorial choices usually reflect that.



> Good thing this is the Trad Forum. Using the word "papist" will get one in the tall weeds in The Interchange.


I assumed we were mature enough to not fuss over an archaic slur, even putting it in quotes. I admit to having a reactionary sort of humor at times, delighting in using un-PC, preferably archaic terms. Pharisee might be another, though I haven't had occasion to use it.



egadfly said:


> Well, do you know how hard it is to find repp-stripe phylacteries?


Let alone shell-cordovan ones, or shetland prayer shawls.



> They do not allow men into church unless they are wearing a tie, and proper shoes- they also recommend a man wear a coat. Women are not allowed to wear pants- they must wear a skirt or dress- the dress must not rise above the knees when they sit. Women must wear a hat or those lacy head covering while in church.


You've utterly convinced me of Pasadena's traditionalist leanings. Sounds dignified.

As for Jews, those of German descent, from the 1840s-50s wave >>> Jews who arrived afterward . Name just about any investment bank besides Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan, and you've got the fruits of a German Jew. Dutch/Portuguese Jews probably rank even higher (eg, Judah Benjamin, the #2 confederate and Supreme Court Judge Benjamin Cardozo), but they're just about gone as a distinct entity. Also, circumstantial evidence suggests J. Press was Jewish - his grandson was affiliated with a temple, the J. stands for Jacobi, and Jews were pretty ubiquitious in the garment industry, or so common belief goes.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

AsherNM said:


> Wow, that House of Saud must really be cranking out the kids to make it so that 'many' ME'ers wear trad/anglo.


Naw, a lot of those guys are the ones you see in the traditional garb. I'll agree that in LA it's changed, but there are still many trad wearing Middle Easterners out there. Part of the issue is that unless you're from the region, half the time you won't know the person you're standing next to is Middle Eastern.


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## Jolly Roger (Apr 26, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> I'll agree that in LA it's changed, but there are still many trad wearing Middle Easterners out there.


May we please have your definition of "trad"? Thanks.


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> Naw, a lot of those guys are the ones you see in the traditional garb. I'll agree that in LA it's changed, but there are still many trad wearing Middle Easterners out there.


I don't believe it. I am very familiar with Persians and Arabs (including royals) and these people generally are not trad as defined by this forum. Not in the least. The older gentlemen, in my experience, are regular visitors to Saville Row and Jermyn Street. The Arabs of my acquaintance who hail from former French territories, I find, look to Paris for guidance on sartorial and other matters. As a previous poster correctly pointed out, most of them seem to be devotees of Armani et al.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

M. Charles said:


> Just oversight. Sorry. If I were trying to offer a defense, it would be that all the Protestant denominations I mention are British in origin (actually, all of them English except for Presbyterians)
> 
> Are you a Lutheran?


Born, raised, and spent most of my adult life as a Lutheran. Lots of south-central Pennsylvanian influence in my old church. I recently became an Episcopalian. No offense taken - just an expression of curiosity on my part.


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## M. Charles (Mar 31, 2007)

It's interesting how Anglicans are currently tied with Catholics in this poll, even though the former has to represent less than a couple of % of the population, if that, while the latter is around 25%.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

M. Charles said:


> On another note, has anyone heard of Presbyterians (especially ministers) wearing tartan ties? I've noticed Mr. Rogers on TV (himself a Presbyterian minister) frequently wore them, and several other Presbyterian ministers I've seen.


I'd never heard this, but I do have a special fondness for tartan ties. Weird.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

M. Charles said:


> On another note, has anyone heard of Presbyterians (especially ministers) wearing tartan ties? I've noticed Mr. Rogers on TV (himself a Presbyterian minister) frequently wore them, and several other Presbyterian ministers I've seen.


Strong ties with Scottish heritage and I do believe it was the Presbyterians that made the "Kirkin' of the Tartan" a big thing in the US?


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

In numerical terms, most Trads are probably of the Shinto persuasion. Seems actually pretty unfortunate that our Japanese cousins don't share their sartorial wisdom with us here.


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## mendozar (Dec 13, 2005)

I am a Roman Catholic who goes to a church where ushers wear Brooks Brothers. This one usher wears horn rimmed glasses and a bowtie every week. Tweed jackets, blazers, suits in general, tradly accessories, etc, are more prevalent than in the general population. Kids tend to dress "preppy" due to the large amount of kids from the nonsectarian schools in the area studying CCD there.


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## AsherNM (Apr 3, 2006)

It seems like all the trad Arabs are Lebanese Christian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Americans#Famous_Americans_of_Arab_descent . Eg,


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Old Brompton said:


> The older gentlemen, in my experience, are regular visitors to Saville Row and Jermyn Street.


I think this goes back to my using this forum to mean traditional gentleman's clothing, and you all using it to mean loafers without socks and plaid shorts (i.e. "trad" and not "traditional."). I'll agree with you that they don't dress "trad," the way you guys use it, but traditional business clothing is definitley what they wear.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

AsherNM said:


> There are the Buckleys, who are Catholic. Also, the Flytes of Brideshead Revisited were 'papist' - I believe there was a small contingent of upper class Catholics in England.
> 
> I'd guess that the religion of ancestors takes precedence over one's current religion.
> 
> It would be interesting to compare religion it to other factors - say comparing growing up Episcopalian in Tucson to being Jewish in New Haven (ring a bell?). I'd guess region wins out every time. There's also the obvious issue of social class.


The less perjorative term for the Flytes is Anglo-Catholic, and their catholicism was a dominant sub-thread throughout the story.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> I think this goes back to my using this forum to mean traditional gentleman's clothing, and you all using it to mean loafers without socks and plaid shorts (i.e. "trad" and not "traditional."). I'll agree with you that they don't dress "trad," the way you guys use it, but traditional business clothing is definitley what they wear.


Just read the Forum description header and you'll get the drift on "Trad". You are on the right path, Trad != traditional gentleman's clothing (defining that however you wish to).


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

rip said:


> The less perjorative term for the Flytes is Anglo-Catholic, and their catholicism was a dominant sub-thread throughout the story.


Anglo-Catholics are not the same as "papists", i.e., Roman Catholics. Anglo-Catholics are a ritualistic, "high church" party or faction within the Church of England and the broader Anglican Communion. They are not in communion with the Holy See. At least in the USA, many Anglo-Catholics have left the Episcopal Church over such matters as female ordination. To make matters more confusing, within the Anglo-Catholic movement there is a smaller subset known as "Anglo-Papalists," who accept full Roman Catholic doctrine, except presumably for Pope Leo XIII's declaration of the invalidity of Anglican orders in the bull "Apostolicae Curae." More Anglo-Catholics would see themselves as a Western counterpart to Eastern Orthodoxy. The triumph of liberal forces in the Episcopal Church (and the C. of E.) has forced Anglo-Catholics into a difficult position: Either they remain in the main church and practice an insular congregationalism; they can affiliate with any of a number of small sectarian splinter groups, or they can join one of the major churches they deem "catholic"--either the Roman Church or the Eastern Orthodox.

Many upper class English families are indeed Roman Catholic, often having clung tenaciously to the old faith since the days of the Reformation.


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## Beefeater (Jun 2, 2007)

I am an Episcopalian from the cradle and remain active in my church (acolyte, chalice bearer). Now the diocese I am in is very conservative as is the church I attend. And I can tell you that most dress either trad or with definite elements of trad. I have been to other Episcopal churches however that are more liberal and have come across Birkenstocks with socks and jeans. Didn't go back. . . not necessarilly because of the dress but the theology.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

M. Charles said:


> Funny you should mention this, since someone else mentioned previously that the Presbyterians briefly took over Westminster. They produced the 1648 Westminster Confession.


The Westminster Assembly took place in 1645 and was an assembly of the clergy of the Church of England (which at that time was virtually Presbyterian, having abolished episcopacy a few years earlier). It produced catechisms and a Directory of Public Worship. The illiberal attitude to the Roman Catholics was fairly typical of the period.


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

Was raised as a Roman Catholic & Confirmed as such, but I'm an atheist.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Connemara said:


> Was raised as a Roman Catholic & Confirmed as such, but I'm an atheist.


The fact you're an atheist in no way means you can't be a good Catholic!

Paraphrase of a line delivered by John Mahoney in an Ed Burns' movie. I always thought it was a great line.


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## blastandcast (Nov 29, 2006)

Prepdad said:


> <An old joke>... to lighten this up a bit:
> 
> When crises arise:
> 
> ...


Now Prepdad: A good Episcopalian would make sure the bar is well stocked long before a crisis occurrs unless, of course, the crisis is that the bar is empty ... .


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Next time, let's assess Trad on the basis of race, okay? I also heard that Trads prefer the missionary position. How do you set up a poll for that?


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

marlinspike said:


> I think this goes back to my using this forum to mean traditional gentleman's clothing, and you all using it to mean loafers without socks and plaid shorts (i.e. "trad" and not "traditional.").


Um, no. "We all" also use it to mean a three-button charcoal suit from J. Press, white broadcloth shirt with plain point forward collar, foulard tie, and black captoe oxfords. Did you somehow miss this, or are you trying to make a point that unfortunately eludes me? On the weekend it can mean madras bermuda shorts with loafers and no socks, but it is more than just casual summer wear. It is a complete wardrobe for every occasion, including professional business wear.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

rojo said:


> Um, no. "We all" also use it to mean a three-button charcoal suit from J. Press, white broadcloth shirt with plain point forward collar, foulard tie, and black captoe oxfords. Did you somehow miss this, or are you trying to make a point that unfortunately eludes me? On the weekend it can mean madras bermuda shorts with loafers and no socks, but it is more than just casual summer wear. It is a complete wardrobe for every occasion, including professional business wear.


My point was that Saville Row stuff isn't really different from "Trad" unless you look at the weekend stuff.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

williamson said:


> The Westminster Assembly took place in 1645 and was an assembly of the clergy of the Church of England (which at that time was virtually Presbyterian, having abolished episcopacy a few years earlier). It produced catechisms and a Directory of Public Worship. The illiberal attitude to the Roman Catholics was fairly typical of the period.


The Westminster Assembly was called by Parliament in 1643 to 'reform' the Church of England. It included Anglican bishops (who rarely attended), Presbyterians, 'Congregationalists' and others. The (Anglican) Book of Common Prayer was proscribed by Parliament in 1645 and episcopacy formally abolished and Presbyterianism established in 1649. In practice most parishes adopted ther own favoured version of church order, although around 2000 episcopally ordained 'Anglicans' were ejected. 


These events 'wrote in stone' the identity of 'Anglicanism' as episcopal and liturgical, and turned those who would have the Church of England otherwise into 'dissenters' at the Restoration of 1660.


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> I think this goes back to my using this forum to mean traditional gentleman's clothing, and you all using it to mean loafers without socks and plaid shorts (i.e. "trad" and not "traditional."). I'll agree with you that they don't dress "trad," the way you guys use it, but traditional business clothing is definitley what they wear.


Ah, I see what you mean. I think we're in agreement here. I certainly agree with your take on "trad." I consider myself "trad," in a more Anglo-American sense I suppose, because even though I like madras, loafers-without-socks, Harris tweed, and the rest of it, I prefer English cut suits and country clothing over unflattering American sack suits and bowties.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

xcubbies said:


> Next time, let's assess Trad on the basis of race, okay? I also heard that Trads prefer the missionary position. How do you set up a poll for that?


Missionaries? Mormons as Trad? Hmmm.


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## Prepdad (Mar 10, 2005)

blastandcast said:


> Now Prepdad: A good Episcopalian would make sure the bar is well stocked long before a crisis occurrs unless, of course, the crisis is that the bar is empty ... .


Blastandcast... point well taken!


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

RCs outpolling Whiskeypalians (Wherever 4 are gathered in his name, there is a "fifth")

Methodists outpolling Presbyterians

Congregationalists and Lutherans not included

Must not be getting a good size sampling....


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Old Brompton said:


> Ah, I see what you mean. I think we're in agreement here. I certainly agree with your take on "trad." I consider myself "trad," in a more Anglo-American sense I suppose, because even though I like madras, loafers-without-socks, Harris tweed, and the rest of it, I prefer English cut suits and country clothing over unflattering American sack suits and bowties.


Cheers to that


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

marlinspike said:


> Have you seen the e-mails that circulate saying not to vote for Barak Obama because he's Moslem (he isn't, btw)? People post them on internet forums, and the only flaw in that ever gets picked up on is that Obama is not Moslem...rarely does somebody say "even if he is, why does it matter."


His fathers backroung is Muslim, his religeous practice, if any, is unclear. Or perhaps it's whatever Democratic promary voters need to hear.

In any case he's a far left elitist guaranteed to raise all sorts of taxes and diminish national security. He's also rather wealthy though the only other job other than elected office he has had was as a "community organizer"


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

marlinspike said:


> My point was that Saville Row stuff isn't really different from "Trad" unless you look at the weekend stuff.


I see what you're saying. Yes and no.

Yes, in that they both tend toward fairly conservative suits and shirts and ties and dress oxfords for business wear.

But no, in that Savile Row tends toward spread collars, big Windsor knots, more padded shoulders, more suppressed waists, and pleated trousers. American Traditional favors a natural shoulder, less shaping through the body of the jacket, plain front trousers, and a forward point collar (or the less dressy button-down collar) with a four-in-hand knot. That might make no difference in the eyes of some, but every difference in the eyes of others.


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## AsherNM (Apr 3, 2006)

xcubbies said:


> Next time, let's assess Trad on the basis of race, okay? I also heard that Trads prefer the missionary position. How do you set up a poll for that?


Why are you so hot and bothered about the topic? The historical associations of trad are rather strong, and, as the results of the poll demonstrate, they persist; these differences do not go away on account of your, or our, ignorance of them. Besides, isn't the infinite variety across time and peoples something to behold?

Personally, I've always thought discerning and classifying differences of all sorts intrinsically appealing, 'systemizing' being a classic attribute of the male mind, according to Borat's cousin at Cambridge.


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## Speas (Mar 11, 2004)

I love this thread. Kinda like watching NASCAR for the crashes - you're not supposed to enjoy it but you do (especially when the papists crash ).


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Literide said:


> His fathers backroung is Muslim, his religeous practice, if any, is unclear. Or perhaps it's whatever Democratic promary voters need to hear.
> 
> In any case he's a far left elitist guaranteed to raise all sorts of taxes and diminish national security. He's also rather wealthy though the only other job other than elected office he has had was as a "community organizer"


Obama's religious "practice" is not unclear! He is a member of the United Church of Christ (Congregational)--a nice liberal denomination for him. His membership in the UCC is unsurprising since he spent quite a few years at the posh Punahou School in Hawaii, which I am pretty certain is Congregational, at least in its origins.

Obama's father, BTW, was an apostate Muslim turned atheist. He and Obama's mother divorced when Obama was two years old and he saw little of him thereafter. However, Obama's stepfather was Indonesian and presumably Muslim. In any event, the name "Barak Hussein Obama" does seem like a handicap for someone seeking national office in post-9/11 America.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Trimmer said:


> The Westminster Assembly was called by Parliament in 1643 to 'reform' the Church of England. It included Anglican bishops (who rarely attended), Presbyterians, 'Congregationalists' and others. The (Anglican) Book of Common Prayer was proscribed by Parliament in 1645 and episcopacy formally abolished and Presbyterianism established in 1649. In practice most parishes adopted ther own favoured version of church order, although around 2000 episcopally ordained 'Anglicans' were ejected.
> 
> 
> These events 'wrote in stone' the identity of 'Anglicanism' as episcopal and liturgical, and turned those who would have the Church of England otherwise into 'dissenters' at the Restoration of 1660.


The use of the term "Anglican" would seem somewhat anachronistic in a discussion of this sort since it was only coined in the 1860s. Both the Puritans and the Laudian high churchmen were factions competing for the control of the Church of England.


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## Nordicnomad (Jul 11, 2006)

Kind of a funny thread, though not always intentionally so. The biggest suprise for me is that there is another Mormon reader besides myself and DPihl. 

Looking around the street or in the stores in Utah it is hard to find much in the way of Trad clothing, but as a Mormon I at least know my genealogy and can speculate that my affinity for Trad comes from my New England Congregationalist anscestors. (The more likely explanation is that I grew up in Vermont during the 80s)


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## emorel98 (Oct 9, 2005)

This thread is funny, but in a sad way. Makes one wish for a josepidal/RL Mansion shoe thread or a josepidal/AE-EG shoe thread.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I guess it had to happen, but I'm shipping this over to the Interchange.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Okay, just a warning here folks. This is The Interchange. Do not be using the word "papist" here!


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Okay, just a warning here folks. This is The Interchange. Do not be using the word "papist" here!


Is Pope-ist ok?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Wayfarer,

I am a Papist and view the term as a badge of honor. I don't however know Rome's position on madras though.

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Wayfarer,
> 
> I am a Papist and view the term as a badge of honor. I don't however know Rome's position on madras though.
> 
> Karl


My people had their hairy, formerly tartan clad, Papist arses booted to the New World too...

I don't make the rules guys, I just quote 'em. Fair warning!


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Interesting...arent [antagonistic mocking voice] "trads" [/antagonistic mocking voice] the ones who don't allow Catholics and Jews to join their country clubs etc...

So once again, it seems that many who dress in..._uuugh I cant even type it_ that style...you know...are just playing dress up...


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

The Gabba Goul said:


> So once again, it seems that many who dress in..._uuugh I cant even type it_ that style...you know...are just playing dress up...


Haven't we been through this already?


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

AlanC said:


> Haven't we been through this already?


ALAN!!! I had a feeling your lame ass might take issue with this...how's your mother???

yeah...and I'm pretty sure if you read that whole thing I replied to you...I'm pretty sure that I said there's a big difference between dressing to impress a specific person, and pretending that every day is Oct. 31st...

but...

you never did answer my follow-up question...is it because you're so interested in me that you need to scrutinize my every post? or is it just because you're a complete jackass??? Either way, you can rest assured that I'm not losing any sleep because some loser on the internet gets his feelings hurt when I make fun of his dress-up crew or whatever you want to call it...


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Gabba, sorry you don't get a free pass to ridicule anyone you wish. All I did was quote your own words. I made no verbal comment at all. If you're uncomfortable with what you say, then don't say it.

Also, keep in mind that you need to watch how you express yourself in dealing with a Moderator. Consider this a warning.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

AlanC said:


> Also, keep in mind that you need to watch how you express yourself in dealing with a Moderator. Consider this a warning.


OOOOOOOH...I'm sooooo sceeeeered...

I suspect you got picked on alot as a kid huh???

nice job of completely avoiding the original point of my post on this thread...


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Despite how cool it looks, driving off a cliff isn't a wise course of action, GG. I continue my suggestion that you drop it. You have now received two infractions.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

rojo said:


> I see what you're saying. Yes and no.
> 
> Yes, in that they both tend toward fairly conservative suits and shirts and ties and dress oxfords for business wear.
> 
> But no, in that Savile Row tends toward spread collars, big Windsor knots, more padded shoulders, more suppressed waists, and pleated trousers. American Traditional favors a natural shoulder, less shaping through the body of the jacket, plain front trousers, and a forward point collar (or the less dressy button-down collar) with a four-in-hand knot. That might make no difference in the eyes of some, but every difference in the eyes of others.


True. However, the stuff the Middle Eastern guys wear are a bit of a mix, since I've never known a Middle Easterner who likes British shirt collars, so it's sorta Saville Row with forward point shirt collars, which I say is darn close enough to call traditional American businesswear (all of our stuff came from that English stuff after all).


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

*Members Please Read Moderators' Message*

We, the Mod Squad, are receiving complaints about the use of the word "Papist" with the contention being that it is a derogatory slur against Roman Catholics. Being one, yet unaware that I was being maligned, I asked for citations & evidence and received the following.

Papist is a term, usually disparaging, referring to a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It was coined during the English Reformation to indicate a Christian's loyalties were to the Pope, rather than to the Protestant Church of England. Over time, however, it came to mean one who supported Papal authority over all Christians and thus became a popular term, especially among Anglicans and Presbyterians. The word ultimately derives from Latin papa, meaning "Pope".

The word was in common use until the mid-nineteenth century; it occurs frequently in Macaulay's History of England from the Accession of James II, and in other historical or controversial works from that period. It survives in the British legal system one of the surviving relics of the Penal Laws, Catholic ineligibility to the throne under the current law of the United Kingdom. Under the Act of Settlement enacted in 1701 and still in force, no one who professes "the popish religion" or marries "a papist" may succeed to the throne of the United Kingdom. Fears that Roman Catholic secular leaders would be Anti-Protestant arose during the suppression of the Catholic Church in England during the reign of Henry VIII and the subsequent persecution of Protestants during the reign of the Roman Catholic Mary I of England.​
Now that we are all aware of that, and this:

Currently loyalty to the Pope is sometimes indicated by the newer term "Papalism" with no pejorative intended.​perhaps we can henceforth use the correct term.

Thank you.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

Is Papalism trad?

Karl

P.S. My best friend in the world is a priest in the Diocese of Brooklyn and he isn't offended by the P word, unless its uttered by Ian Paisley.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Does anyone know the circumstances that brought the House of Saud to power? A tribal battle when old man Saud literally grabbed his rival's ankles as he was escaping from an adobe building. For a few moments the future of 'Saudi' Arabia literally hung in the balance of a window sill until Saud managed to pull him back in. Such moments are not lost to exotic realms, and if not " For the want of a nail" a lot of 'Trads' would be in rags.


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## wannaB1L (Jul 30, 2006)

Goodness I cannot believe that people are so sensative that they can't tolerate the 'P' word. As I stated earlier I am Catholic, but I guess I am not as fragile and weak as others. Everybody is a victim in this day and age. It is like not allowing school children to visit an icecream factory because one of the kids is lactose intolerant and they don't want to hurt his feelings. I rather enjoyed the dry humor- and hope that this board does not become over regulated. There will always be a couple of babies, and I do not think that we should base rules upon the feelings of the most sensative.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> Is Papalism trad?
> 
> ...





wannaB1L said:


> Goodness I cannot believe that people are so sensative that they can't tolerate the 'P' word. As I stated earlier I am Catholic, but I guess I am not as fragile and weak as others. Everybody is a victim in this day and age. It is like not allowing school children to visit an icecream factory because one of the kids is lactose intolerant and they don't want to hurt his feelings. I rather enjoyed the dry humor- and hope that this board does not become over regulated. There will always be a couple of babies, and I do not think that we should base rules upon the feelings of the most sensative.


+1
and
+2

Please don't slay the messenger. As I said in my short preamble, I am reporting the news, not expressing agreement.

Alexander Kabbaz
Senior Moderator and unoffended Roman Catholic


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

In regards to the "P" word (which that right there, priceless gem), to quote a Monty Python character after watching the attack rabbit decapitate someone, "Warned him, warned him I did!"


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Interesting...arent [antagonistic mocking voice] "trads" [/antagonistic mocking voice] the ones who don't allow Catholics and Jews to join their country clubs etc...
> 
> So once again, it seems that many who dress in..._uuugh I cant even type it_ that style...you know...are just playing dress up...


What are you trying to say here, GG? Everyone, I repeat, EVERYONE on this forum likes to play dress up. That's the whole reason we are posting on AAAC. We love clothes! We love getting dressed! We love getting dressed differently and more elegantly than the average person! We love using our outfits to get ourselves perceived differently by different people! Our clothes make a statement, and we all know it, and we all love it. (ex: look at me, I'm retro! look at me, I'm chic! look at me, I'm rocking the power tie! look at me, I look anglo! look at me, I look hot in my thom browne pants! look at me, I am ahead of the fashion! look at me, I am practicing CBD! look at me, I look old money! look at me, I look like a hippie!)


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Untilted said:


> What are you trying to say here, GG? Everyone, I repeat, EVERYONE on this forum likes to play dress up. That's the whole reason we are posting on AAAC. We love clothes! We love getting dressed! We love getting dressed differently and more elegantly than the average person! We love using our outfits to get ourselves perceived differently by different people! Our clothes make a statement, and we all know it, and we all love it. (ex: look at me, I'm retro! look at me, I'm chic! look at me, I'm rocking the power tie! look at me, I look anglo! look at me, I look hot in my thom browne pants! look at me, I am ahead of the fashion! look at me, I am practicing CBD! look at me, I look old money! look at me, I look like a hippie!)


Oh?!? This forum is about clothes?


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## wannaB1L (Jul 30, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> +1
> and
> +2
> 
> ...


Dear Sir,
My rant on the overly sensative was not against you my dear chap- I know that you are performing your duty- it was against the whiners that complained that their feelers were hurt. I could tell that the moderators were unenthusiastic about limiting the thread, and that your heart was not in it- by your language. I was directing my reply to those limp wristed 'victims' that probably gave you an earful.

Baptized Catholic 7 days after Birth


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## Calvin500 (Jan 16, 2009)

M. Charles said:


> On another note, has anyone heard of Presbyterians (especially ministers) wearing tartan ties? I've noticed Mr. Rogers on TV (himself a Presbyterian minister) frequently wore them, and several other Presbyterian ministers I've seen.


Dr. Douglas F. Kelly (PhD., Edinburgh) of Reformed Theological Seminary-Charlotte and pulpit supply at a small PCA church in SC (and my Systematic Theology Prof) would basically ONLY wear a tartan tie. Perhaps some exceptions with the occasional regemental.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Calvin500 said:


> Dr. Douglas F. Kelly (PhD., Edinburgh) of Reformed Theological Seminary-Charlotte and pulpit supply at a small PCA church in SC (and my Systematic Theology Prof) would basically ONLY wear a tartan tie. Perhaps some exceptions with the occasional regemental.


There's a word for people who resurrect contentious old threads. And it's much less nice than "Papist."

Personally, I was baptized Roman Catholic, attended a Lutheran Pre-K, Episcopal elementary, Catholic middle, and Quaker high school. And given the context of _Brideshead Revisited_, I don't have a problem with describing Lady Marchmain with that term.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

The No. 1 noble family in the UK after the royal family, is that of the Duke of Norfolk, who also happen to be the foremost Roman Catholic family in the country.
And most of the foremost noble and upper class Church of England families don't consider thermselves protestant anyway. Partly because most of them are High Anglican, and partly because like most Anlgicans in the UK they are all fully aware that Anglicans are theologiclaly not protestants. The C of E and Rome both still consider the Anglican faith as part of the one catholic (small C i.e meaning universal) apostolic church. 

You see Henry VIII unlike Luther, Calvin, Erasmus etc. only split with Rome for personal reasons not because of theology.

Methodists, Presbyterians, Calvinists, Baptists, Lutherans are all Protestant faiths. Other Anglicans around the world may feel they are. But the more religious C of E Anglicans generally don't. 

For the record born Roman Catholic.
Have been a secular humanist (what the church calls athiest) for a very long time though.


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## Thomas Hart (Dec 1, 2008)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Interesting...arent [antagonistic mocking voice] "trads" [/antagonistic mocking voice] the ones who don't allow Catholics and Jews to join their country clubs etc...
> 
> So once again, it seems that many who dress in..._uuugh I cant even type it_ that style...you know...are just playing dress up...


Well, those of a Hebrew disposition seem to be lacking posts so, I'll put one in for us. In response to the above. There have always been Catholics and Jews who socialized with Episcopalians. Please, my dear sir, do your research.

To name a few:
The Mackays
The Biddles
The Drexels
The Schiffs
Otto Kahn
Felix Warburg
August Belmont
The Rothschilds
The Floods
The Fairs
The Buckleys
Every Old Sephardic Family

Just to name a few.

Mind you, many Jews who _could _have socialized with them chose not to, and were quite content not to. The Jews had their own Society that was just as intricate as that of Mrs. Astor, Ward MacAllister, and The Social Register (which has gone to shambles).


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

Being a failed Catholic I didn't know that there was a particular style associated with religious affiliation, but according to The New Penguin Dictionary Catholic is described as universal comprehensive, broad in tastes and sympathies.

But that does not mean I will ever wear polyester safari suits you have to draw the line somewhere :devil:


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> The No. 1 noble family in the UK after the royal family, is that of the Duke of Norfolk, who also happen to be the foremost Roman Catholic family in the country.
> And most of the foremost noble and upper class Church of England families don't consider thermselves protestant anyway. Partly because most of them are High Anglican, and partly because like most Anlgicans in the UK they are all fully aware that Anglicans are theologiclaly not protestants. The C of E and Rome both still consider the Anglican faith as part of the one catholic (small C i.e meaning universal) apostolic church.
> 
> You see Henry VIII unlike Luther, Calvin, Erasmus etc. only split with Rome for personal reasons not because of theology.
> ...


Lutherans do not consider themselves to be Protestant. Lutheran theology and liturgy has more in common with the Catholic Church than the other Protestant faiths you mentioned.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Laxplayer said:


> Lutherans do not consider themselves to be Protestant. Lutheran theology and liturgy has more in common with the Catholic Church than the other Protestant faiths you mentioned.


That might be true of the view of American Lutherans. But in Europe, I can assure you that Lutherans most definitely consider themselves protestants. Which is hardly surprising seeing as Martin Luther was the main and most important protestant reformer of the day.

On the theology side however, you are correct. I have several Russian Orthodox friends in Sweden and I used to attend the Russian Orthodox church in London. And I have read a fair bit of Orthodox theology. And they & I both agree that the Lutheran faith is the closest protestant faith to Russian Orthodox. Even closer in fact that Roman Catholicism.

Because many centuries ago it was the filioque, partly, that forced a wedge between the Eastern (Greek Orthodox) and Western (Roman Catholic) churches.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Laxplayer said:


> Lutherans do not consider themselves to be Protestant. Lutheran theology and liturgy has more in common with the Catholic Church than the other Protestant faiths you mentioned.


Interesting, Lax. I am a Lutheran like you and have always considered myself a Protestant. I wonder if that distinction has more to do with church-by-church tradition (which is strong...and encouraged...in the Lutheran church), than by any wholesale edict by the ELCA or the Missouri Synod. If it is the latter, that's news to me!


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

wannaB1L said:


> I am Roman Catholic- SSPX (Society of Saint Paul X) Church. They do not allow men into church unless they are wearing a tie, and proper shoes- they also recommend a man wear a coat. Women are not allowed to wear pants- they must wear a skirt or dress- the dress must not rise above the knees when they sit. Women must wear a hat or those lacy head covering while in church.


Are you referring to the Society of St Pius X?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I am always bemused at the arrogance of people who take umbrage when their traddie, bigoted vocabularies are called to account. It is not the onus of the offended to 'understand' it doesn't mean anything really. Some of my ancesters came to America BECAUSE papist was no less than a yellow star sewn on a coat. 
Others of my family, those already here at least 10,000 years find various athletic mascots no less offensive. 
This led to our own traditions in Sept Kavanaugh and the Alik'shi lineage.


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## Pale Male (Mar 24, 2008)

*English Lutherans*

I'm of the "bake a ham & pick up some more gin" group, but saw no mention of the elusive "English Lutheran". When I was growing up, there was a large Lutheran presence -- German, of course, but the English Lutherans had their own rather impressive church. Wonder how common this was. And why no English Lutherans post here. OK, off to google....


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## obxsouth (Mar 18, 2009)

*From a reading Baptist seminarian with shoes*



Kingsfield said:


> What's the difference between the different p
> rotestant sects?
> 
> An Anglican is a Presbyterian with a trust fund.
> ...


Kingsfield:
You have it wrong (though the shoes line is great, giving me a needed laugh). Borrowing from "A River Runs Through It" --"Methodists are Baptists who can read."
Thanks again for a good laugh. Have a great day.


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## KennethB (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm a recovering Catholic.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

M. Charles said:


> I'm very interested to know whether there is a correlation between religious affiliation and the Trads of this forum, since OPH and other sources explicitly link elements of the style with WASPdom. Does the "P" still apply? Did it ever? I speak as an Anglican.


 I'm Episcopalian. As for what another is ... frankly I prefer less religious over too, absurdly, or ridiculously religious.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

Methodist. My grandfather was a Methodist minister. I'm a member of one church, recently moved and am joining another Methodist church


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

M. Charles said:


> Tilt, you gotta be kidding me, right? I mean, I know being in Charlottesvile makes you want to imbibe all the Jeffersonia and I'm guessing that you go to Mr. Jefferson's university, but deism is an extinct philosophy/religion. This is because, if one buys into its Enlightenment presuppositions about the nature of reason and epistemology, God -- even the watchmaker God -- is no longer applicable post-Darwin.
> 
> But all of this is probably moot b/c you're really not a deist, I'm guessing.


Don't knock it, I had Deist on my dog tag as religious affiliation when a young fellow in the Army!!

Then I realised...


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Back when the P-Bomb lived.


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