# The £30,000 suit - your thoughts



## mancpack (Oct 16, 2007)

I was just curious about what fellow members thought of the £30,000 suit? (that's the starting price / how much is it in Vicuna?) The Tailor has even attached a currency convertor. Is this hype or is it reality?

I have attached the weblink for your convenience or here is the text from the site -

The ultimate suit, and a chance to fully showcase my hard learned craft..
As one of only a very few true tailors who is a genuine practicing cut and make tailor, I am offering a service for the discerning client that I believe is the best in the world.......*A FULL HAND MADE SUIT WHERE EVERY SINGLE STITCH WILL BE DONE BY HAND.*

This service is aimed at the client who wants the absolute truest and purest form of tailoring that money can buy.

I will personally place every single stitch in your suit by hand, a machine will never touch the garment at any stage.

This hand making is the absolute pinnacle of tailoring, and will create a garment that is unique and unparalleled from any other tailor in the world.

Your suit will take me so long to make it can not be measured in man hours, it will take *MONTHS* of my time to make the perfectly crafted suit.

The finished suit will appear as if it has not been hand crafted, but sculpted around your torso, the wearing of the suit and the softness will be unrivaled by anything else that can be offered from any other tailor or tailoring company.

The fabric and trimmings selected for the suit will be of the finest quality and will come from the best merchants in their field.

The price for this service will start at *£30,000 for a 2 piece suit and WILL BE LIMITED TO MAKING ONLY 2 SUITS PER YEAR. currency converter.*


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Silly. As if every single stitch a tailor does by hand is unequivocably better than what he could do with, say, a sewing machine. Nonsense.

To the tailor: either give me more photos to see, or give me a better reason to visit North Lincolnshire.

.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

mancpack said:


> I was just curious about what fellow members thought of the £30,000 suit? (that's the starting price / how much is it in Vicuna?) The Tailor has even attached a currency convertor. Is this hype or is it reality?
> 
> I have attached the weblink for your convenience or here is the text from the site -
> 
> ...


William Westmancott offers the same exact ultimate bespoke service. Except that with William Westmancott you get a minimum of about £60,000 worth and a maximum of about £90,000 worth of clothing for £45,000 (versus £30,000 worth of clothing for £30,000 with Des Merrion).

Just like Des Merrion, William Westmancott is one of Savile Row's four best tailors. And, just like Des Merrion, William Westmancott is one of the 15 best tailors in existence (the other 13, as I said in one of my reply message to another topic, being William Fioravanti, Frank Shattuck, Tony Maurizio, Vincenzo Sanitate, Maurice Sedwell, Rubinacci London, Gianni Campagna, Caraceni Milan, Rubinacci Milan, Caraceni Rome, Rubinacci Naples, Liverano & Liverano and J.H. Cutler, who is located in Sydney, Australia). This is all based on all around quality and craftsmanship, particularly hand sewing and handmade machine sewing (both quantity and quality of hand sewing and handmade machine sewing) but also fabric quality and all other aspects of quality and craftsmanship (far too many to mention here).

For £30,000, you only get once choice or two choices: a two-piece suit consisting of a jacket and one pair of pants, the choice that you definitely get or, the choice that you may or may not get, a two-piece tuxedo consisting of a jacket and one pair of pants from Des Merrion ultimate bespoke.

For £45,000, you get the following choices from William Westmancott ultimate bespoke: a two-piece suit or a two-piece tuxedo (consisting of one pair of pants along with either a jacket, morning coat or a tailcoat), a three-piece suit or tuxedo (consisting of one pair of pants and vest or two similar or identical pairs of pants with no vest along with either a jacket, a morning coat or a tailcoat) or a four-piece suit or tuxedo (consisting of two similar or identical pairs of pants and a vest along with either a jacket, a morning coat or a tailcoat). Of course, with each suit or tuxedo, a jacket, a morning coat and a tailcoat are mutually exclusive. And, with each ultimate bespoke purchase, you can have a suit or a tuxedo but not both. With each ultimate bespoke purchase, you also get six ultimate bespoke dress shirts with each suit or six ultimate bespoke formal shirts with each tuxedo. Each ultimate custom shirt is worth £2,475 and is included with each ultimate bespoke purchase, free of charge. That is a total of 12 choices! (YIKES!!!!!!!!!! :0) Basically, there is a mandatory discount that is a minimum of 25% and a maximum of 50%.

Otherwise, to my knowledge, ultimate bespoke from both of these tailors is exactly the same (absolutely nothing different at all)! (again, YIKES!!!!!!!!!! :0)


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Unless I make the Forbes 400, I won't be purchasing a 30,000 GBP suit or even a 45,000 GBP.

I don't think that stitching every stitch by hand is inherently better than doing the long straight seams with a machine. I agree hand stitching is better for the armholes and the like.

How do you determine the best 15 tailors in the world? How do you quantify that?


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

"Yes, this is expensive but there are suits and *then there are SUITS. Remember you are paying for ONE craftsman to work on your suit from measuring to finish for a few months.* "

and this is better then a normal bespoke suit how?

For £30k, I could go to Huntsman or Henry Poole and get 5 bespoke suits and 2 bespoke dinner suits with money to spare.

WW charges £45K; that extra £15k should cover bespoke shirts from Turnbull & Asser, custom made belts and MTM shoes from Edward Green.

For the £30-45k, I would want to see how this is better then bespoke. I suppose not is stupid enough to spend so much on a suit. If I had silly money, went mad and decided to spend this money on a suit, I would go to WW.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

ToryBoy said:


> "Yes, this is expensive but there are suits and *then there are SUITS. Remember you are paying for ONE craftsman to work on your suit from measuring to finish for a few months.* "
> 
> and this is better then a normal bespoke suit how?
> 
> ...


Seconded. I could get everything in top quality bespoke for the price of one of these suits.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

You might find this lengthy discussion (from last January) of Des Merrion's 30K suit of some interest:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=77750

I should note that Mr Merrion is a member of this Forum as is Mr Westmancott. The latter's pricing policies have also been discussed at some length, Here are just two snippets:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=76134

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=76283


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

All that money and you don't get two pairs of pants? Go Away with you.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

And here: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=690454&postcount=38


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

medwards said:


> You might find this lengthy discussion (from last January) of Des Merrion's 30K suit of some interest:
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=77750
> 
> ...


Good read.

My comments were about their ultimate bespoke and not their normal bespoke suits. I do think there was too much focus on his prices, a person spends at least £3.6k on a Huntmans bespoke then going to somewhere like Dege and spend £1k less, because they are happy going to Huntsman. Why go to Dege if you will not be 100% happy, considering the money being spent.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

As someone's already pointed out this is suspiciously similar to the publicity stunt by Westmancott.
It's a shame that it appears to have been copied so transparently. It was a feeble idea in the first place imo.


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## mancpack (Oct 16, 2007)

With all due respect to Mr Merrion and Mr Westmancott, they maybe members of the forum but maybe if they could take stage to discuss and maybe post some pictures of why spending 30GBP on garment gives an ultimate bespoke experience.
The reason for bringing this up again is that in our workshops today we had a discussion about the same type of suit - completley handmade with no piece touched by machine and as to why this is different or better. The answer from our coatmaker was this. Now considering he has been in the trade for 45 years and his father was a tailor for his entire life then maybe we should listen to his response. He also started his apprenticship with one of the above mentioned Savile Row Tailors.

"Along time ago his father used to do everything by hand and that means sewing every seam - the lot - he was also trained like this as well. However for a number of reasons and in his opinion there needs to be a level of machine stiching in a coat but still with a significant degree of hand stiching in the garment" to give it character. We then discussed the 30kGBP suit and his response was "well if they can get that good luck to them!"

The question is about perceived value?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

mancpack said:


> I was just curious about what fellow members thought of the £30,000 suit?


Silliness cubed!

Anyone who doesn't have something better to do with that sum needs to give it to me!

About 25 years ago, Rolls Royce had a marketing problem, Mercedes had started building automobiles that were ostensibly superior in many regards, but sold for about 20% less. Problem solved! Rolls more than doubled their pricing without changing the cars a bit!


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## mancpack (Oct 16, 2007)

How can you tell who are the best tailors in the world - surely it is opinion?

Who are the top 10 guitarists in the world - dead or alive

Your answer will be different than mine

If you asked one of our clients who regulary buys bespoke suits from us and may have used a Savile Row tailor or maybe one of your mentioned top 20 before they came to us then they will say us. Although I would be quite happy to put one of our Bespoke Suits against any mentioned then the question would be - who judges it

Therefore it is a very difficult subject to get right or even comment on


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Audi S5 TC said:


> Just like Des Merrion, William Westmancott is one of Savile Row's four best tailors. And, just like Des Merrion, William Westmancott is one of the 15 best tailors in existence


Balderdash!!! (and I mean that in the most gentlemanly way :icon_smile_wink

Des Merrion is not a Savile Row tailor...as competent as he may be, there are a good many others who have had far greater experience, have refined their craftsmanship to a greater extent, and who consistently produce quality clothing at a higher level than the examples I have seen of his work. I sincerely doubt that Mr Merrion would claim such a status for himself. He seems to be a very forthright and candid gent. William Westmancott is certainly a competent craftsman as well, but to rank him as one of the fifteen best tailors in existence is a bit far-reaching. His work didn't rank up there when he was with Dege or Anthony Hewitt so I am unsure what has lifted him to this exalted status. But my aim is not to denigrate either. I am sure they are able to craft a decent suit. But I would suggest that they neither stand out above the crowd nor can one justify the price of these high priced garments other than to note that the price tag has indeed added to their notoriety. :idea:


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## Cary Grant (Sep 11, 2008)

Hmmmm $45,000 to spend...
one suit...
Audi A5...

one suit...
Audi A5...

one suit...
Audi A5...

one suit...
Audi A5...

Audi wins!!!!


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

But would that Audi be fully canvassed?


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Cary Grant said:


> Hmmmm $45,000 to spend...
> one suit...
> Audi A5...


Not sure about US prices. In the UK for $45k (£30.5k), one could get a brand new A5, with a new bespoke suit and MTM EG's to wear when driving the car.

By the way, it would be $66.5k (£45k) not $45k.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> But would that Audi be fully canvassed?


and will the leather seats be 100% hand stitched.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

mancpack said:


> "Along time ago his father used to do everything by hand and that means sewing every seam - the lot - he was also trained like this as well. However for a number of reasons and in his opinion there needs to be a level of machine stiching in a coat but still with a significant degree of hand stiching in the garment" to give it character. We then discussed the 30kGBP suit and his response was "well if they can get that good luck to them!"


Some tailors would disagree with that. A a hand sewn seam is different than a machine sewn seam. Hand sewn seam is softer and more flexible, not to mention stronger when done right. Some tailors say to do the seat seam right it has to be done by hand and the same with the leg seam, at least the top 12" or more, after that it is cutting to many corner. All horse riding and ski trousers need the seat seam hand sewn. The sewing machine is quick and easy, but more ridged. Nowadays ski clothes are completely machine sewn. When it comes to coats, if the hand sewer is good (no grinning stitches), then the more hand sewn the better. The coat already has thousands of hand sewn stitches in it, so add a few seams. Compare a machine at 5,000 stitches per minute to hand sewing at 33 stitches per minute and you can see why so many tailors went cheap.

What surprised me is when Des said he would do it at his age. While I expect a younger person such as William to come up with a high price I really didn't think Des would. These high prices are certainly reasonable if they and family are flown to some far away place like Thihiti to make such a fine suit. But, more power to them. There is also the cost of cloth, some is over $10,000 per yard, so now Des is loosing money, big time, because you need 3 1/2 yards for the average person. So, what is a fair price for a hand sewn suit?


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## stevener11 (Jun 11, 2008)

long shot maybe, but does anyone own one or has anyone seen/touched one of these in person? curious to see more pics


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

stevener11 said:


> long shot maybe, but does anyone own one or has anyone seen/touched one of these in person? curious to see more pics


I'd be suprised if anybody every paid out that kind of money. I have heard of people paying lots for cloth, but never an extreme amount for the hand sewing. People should pay more for a handsewn suit, but what is a reasonable price I don't know.

There was a group of tailors that only hand sewed until about 1922-4, when they finally decided that a little bit of machine sewing was OK.


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## Cary Grant (Sep 11, 2008)

ToryBoy said:


> Not sure about US prices. In the UK for $45k (£30.5k), one could get a brand new A5, with a new bespoke suit and MTM EG's to wear when driving the car.
> 
> By the way, it would be $66.5k (£45k) not $45k.


Yes- and at $65k I'd get the S5.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

I expect that these two tailors offer these 100% handsewn suits at such a price that they don't expect to get a commision to make one, but that it is an advertising scheme.

If it would take a few months to make one, I would think that would certainly interfere with their existing business. 

And as WA mentioned, there is no provision in the offer for various prices of cloth.

@WA - What in the world is $10K/yard cloth used for?


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

I read somewhere about a prince who wanted his pinstripes to be made of 24 kt gold or something. Probably something of that sort.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

Thanks -- nothing is too good for a Prince I suppose.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> If it would take a few months to make one, I would think that would certainly interfere with their existing business.


I suspect the big reason for the cost in the time away business. How much business would lose they not being able to work for those months. How many bespoke suits starting from £2k could WW make in that time?

To be fair to these guys, they are not the only ones. Armani charges £75k or $75k (cannot remember which one) for his top-of-the-range bespoke suits. Kiton does something similar.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

JibranK said:


> I read somewhere about a prince who wanted his pinstripes to be made of 24 kt gold or something. Probably something of that sort.


I have read this, it was Holland & Sherry or Scabal cloth (I think the former).


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## Benjamin NYC (Dec 28, 2006)

My understanding is that much of the cost of stratospheric suits of this sort is from the rare or otherwise special material used. It is also a bit of an open secret that really good tailors, not just those who want to brag that they sold an five figure suit, do not really like working with the ultrafine materials from which such big-ticket oneoffs are usually made. Of course most of them will do it, but it is not how most any were trained and the tailors themselves are the first to realize the slight absurdity of the whole proposition. And no matter how beautiful, rare, exquisite, etc the fabric may be, if the tailor in question is not used to working with the material, and does not like working with the material, the fit - the most important element of the suit - is in jeopardy. I understand that ultra high count fabrics simply do not make the best-constructed suits, as the fabric often lacks the body required for a good tailor to make deliberate and expressive cuts to the cloth. So, my thoughts are that a $50,000 suit would surely be made of beautiful fabric, but if its maker was unaccustomed or unable to fashion it into a well cut piece, the value of these five figure suits is seriously questionable. Now, I could see perhaps one or two tailors establishing themselves as ultrafine experts, trained and practiced in working with exotic fibers, but I do not think that most tailors, even the highest end bespoke outfits, would be at their best in terms of either value or outright product when ordered simply to make the most expensive suit possible. This goes for other things in life too.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> I expect that these two tailors offer these 100% handsewn suits at such a price that they don't expect to get a commision to make one, but that it is an advertising scheme.
> 
> If it would take a few months to make one, I would think that would certainly interfere with their existing business.
> 
> ...


You would have to go to SF and aks the group that manton writes to. One of those South American camels has very expensive hair fibers. I've seen used capes on ebay for about $15,000. There are some other hair fiber creatures that is not cheap, too. The best silks are lots too, but not nearly as much- maybe over $1-3,000 per yard. A few people have custom cloth made.


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## mancpack (Oct 16, 2007)

WA said:


> You would have to go to SF and aks the group that manton writes to. One of those South American camels has very expensive hair fibers. I've seen used capes on ebay for about $15,000. There are some other hair fiber creatures that is not cheap, too. The best silks are lots too, but not nearly as much- maybe over $1-3,000 per yard. A few people have custom cloth made.


Apart from having your cloth woven for you then the following cloths are seen as very hign end but as discussed some tailors don't enjoy and sometimes won't touch the very fine cloths. Below is a list of some of the uber luxury cloths. We have made Bespoke Suits with these and they are more difficult to work with as you need to understand the cloth and it's properties.
Scabal - 100% Vicuna Suiting (Vicuna is an Andean Llama)
Scabal - Summit - Super 250's
Scabal - Sunrise - Super 200's with silk
Scabal - Diamond Chip - Super 150's with silk and diamond chips
Scabal - Gold Treasure - Super 150's with 22 carat gold pinstripe
Scabal - Kharisa - Fine Kid Mohair
Dormeuil - Guanashina - Various mixes of fine fibres including super 200's wool, Baby Cashmere, Guanaco and Kid Pashmina. 
Dormeuil - Phantom - Cambedoo mohair and cashmere

We have completed bespoke suits in the Diamond Chip, Gold Treasure, Sunrise and Guanashina and they take alot of understanding to achieve the result.

Hope this helps in terms of the uber qualities - there are more merchants but these are the ones we use.


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

All of this followed by a thread entitled, "How do I get red sauce stains out of my $60,000 suit."


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Mitchell said:


> All of this followed by a thread entitled, "How do I get red sauce stains out of my $60,000 suit."


TREMENDOUS!!:icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Mitchell said:


> All of this followed by a thread entitled, "How do I get red sauce stains out of my $60,000 suit."


With a $1,000 stain remover, of course. And guess which tailor would sell it?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

mancpack said:


> .
> Scabal - 100% Vicuna Suiting (Vicuna is an Andean Llama)
> Scabal - Summit - Super 250's
> Scabal - Sunrise - Super 200's with silk
> ...


I am truly a peasant because I would sincerely prefer a fine quality heavier merino worsted, or perhaps even a good flannel.


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

*But what about weight fluctuations...*

While I certainly admire precision tailoring it does seem a bit silly sometimes regardless of your budget. Theoretically, the greatest advantage to bespoke is fit; a precise fit. (_Custom details are nice, but I'd guess 80% of the time the types of things people actually want - i.e. custom chopstick pockets - in a suit can be accommodated by even the highest grade MTMs_) The thing is, regardless of how many fittings, adjustments, and hand stitches go into a garment, the odds of the fit actually _remaining_ precise for a meaningful amount of time are next to nothing!! Body weight, and thus shape, fluctuates from morning to night, and certainly from day to day. Muscle mass varies over time, your height grows and then shrinks as you age. The volume of your chest hair fluctuates. The list goes on.

My point is that a good deal of the other-worldly sum in this case is clearly spent trying to achieve the most precise fit possible. In Des' own words _"The finished suit will appear as if it has not been hand crafted, but sculpted around your torso."_ I fail to see the point if the jacket must be adjusted every few hours to precisely fit the changes that occur in your torso (gut). I think that with all tailoring the key is to strike a reasonable balance. If you can get something that fits 90% or so as well for $3000 - indeed at times better due to body changes - for many many thousands less what have you gained by spending $45,000? The $45,000 suit may fit you better than anything else available - but only for the 4 or 5 hours after you pick it up from the final fitting.


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## mancpack (Oct 16, 2007)

The Louche said:


> While I certainly admire precision tailoring it does seem a bit silly sometimes regardless of your budget. Theoretically, the greatest advantage to bespoke is fit; a precise fit. (_Custom details are nice, but I'd guess 80% of the time the types of things people actually want - i.e. custom chopstick pockets - in a suit can be accommodated by even the highest grade MTMs_) The thing is, regardless of how many fittings, adjustments, and hand stitches go into a garment, the odds of the fit actually _remaining_ precise for a meaningful amount of time are next to nothing!! Body weight, and thus shape, fluctuates from morning to night, and certainly from day to day. Muscle mass varies over time, your height grows and then shrinks as you age. The volume of your chest hair fluctuates. The list goes on.
> 
> My point is that a good deal of the other-worldly sum in this case is clearly spent trying to achieve the most precise fit possible. In Des' own words _"The finished suit will appear as if it has not been hand crafted, but sculpted around your torso."_ I fail to see the point if the jacket must be adjusted every few hours to precisely fit the changes that occur in your torso (gut). I think that with all tailoring the key is to strike a reasonable balance. If you can get something that fits 90% or so as well for $3000 - indeed at times better due to body changes - for many many thousands less what have you gained by spending $45,000? The $45,000 suit may fit you better than anything else available - but only for the 4 or 5 hours after you pick it up from the final fitting.


I totaly agree that it is about fit and the interpretation of the garment to the wearer. In priority it is fit - correct measurements and posture corrections - cloth suitability both on usage and body proportion (eg flannel's tend to bag if being over used) and then the trinckets. A simple suit is a stylish suit.

Bespoke tailoring is about getting the best fit possible for the canvas you are creating your work on. Simple as that.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

mancpack said:


> Apart from having your cloth woven for you then the following cloths are seen as very hign end but as discussed some tailors don't enjoy and sometimes won't touch the very fine cloths. Below is a list of some of the uber luxury cloths. We have made Bespoke Suits with these and they are more difficult to work with as you need to understand the cloth and it's properties.
> Scabal - 100% Vicuna Suiting (Vicuna is an Andean Llama)
> Scabal - Summit - Super 250's
> Scabal - Sunrise - Super 200's with silk
> ...


I Always thought Loro Piana made the finest cloth. They've won this year with their 13 or 14 micron fabrics.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Jim In Sunny So Calif said:


> @WA - What in the world is $10K/yard cloth used for?





JibranK said:


> I read somewhere about a prince who wanted his pinstripes to be made of 24 kt gold or something. Probably something of that sort.


Not even close.
The 24-carat gold pin stripe that Scabal sells is only about £450 a metre last time I checked so even a very fat person who wants a 3-piece with extra trousers is going to leave these two tailors with plenty of profit.

I've never ever seen a fabric for £10k a metre and I'm not convinced it exists.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Bonhamesque said:


> I've never ever seen a fabric for £10k a metre and I'm not convinced it exists.


It's in El Dorado. The conquistadors' tailors looked long and hard for it.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Unless the suit fabric was woven by the elves from Lord of the Rings (with fire/water/magic/arrow resistance and magical camouflage properties of course) and completely hand made by them, I'm not going to pay that amount of money for a suit.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Or woven by spiders: that would be interesting. Strong as heck, but sticky. Lots of brushing off to do.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

I never liked Spiderman's suit though..


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

TheGuyIsBack said:


> I Always thought Loro Piana made the finest cloth. They've won this year with their 13 or 14 micron fabrics.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

I assume I'm not correct.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

"In 2001, Loro Piana made the world's finest suiting cloth, of 13.1 micron, from Jema wool. It is wool from these same sheep that is used in Jemala knitwear." 

"In 2002, Loro Piana of Italy purchased 12.9-micron bale, equal WORLD RECORD bale, for 120,000 cents per kilogram."


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Cheap at twice the price!*

Here's a testimonial from elsewhere on that site:

"Suit looks a million dollars. Just put it on as it came out of the box.... awesome! Night and day away from the various London things I've tried over the years."

Given that price works out to $44,000, one is really only paying 4.4% of what it is regarded as worth, at least by one customer:icon_smile_big:


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Cost = 44 000
Utility = 1 000 000
U > C
Ergo, to buy the suit is rational (utility exceeds the cost).


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

TheGuyIsBack said:


> "In 2001, Loro Piana made the world's finest suiting cloth, of 13.1 micron, from Jema wool. It is wool from these same sheep that is used in Jemala knitwear."
> 
> "In 2002, Loro Piana of Italy purchased 12.9-micron bale, equal WORLD RECORD bale, for 120,000 cents per kilogram."


I think that's finest as defined as being made from the thinest wool fibers, which are accordingly rare, but may not produce the best fabric, depending on how one decides to define the term best.


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## TheGuyIsBack (Nov 6, 2008)

Flanderian said:


> I think that's finest as defined as being made from the thinest wool fibers, which are accordingly rare, but may not produce the best fabric, depending on how one decides to define the term best.


You got a point there.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Reminds me of the Maharaja who built his palace out of chocolate...


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

*Yet another farm it out tailor moaning!*



mancpack said:


> I was just curious about what fellow members thought of the £30,000 suit? (that's the starting price / how much is it in Vicuna?) The Tailor has even attached a currency convertor. Is this hype or is it reality?
> 
> I have attached the weblink for your convenience or here is the text from the site -
> 
> ...


Gentlemen,

I have made my point VERY clear regarding the £30K suit.

It is nothing more than a bit of b......t!

I have not, nor have I ever claimed a hand made suit is better than a machine made one.

But one thing I can say for A FACT, and I do not care for one minute what many of these other so callled expert tailors say, is that such a garment would take at least 3-4 months of solid 14 hours a day 7 days a week sewing labour to make, and maybe even more to execute such a suit correctly.

Yes, of course there are better cutters, tailors and sewers than I, that I take as read, any-one that really knows me also knows I do not take myself seriously, life is for living and not getting too bogged down in the nitty gritty or the minute of a £30K suit guys!

But based on a cost of skilled labour, I think it is UNDERPRICED!

I visitied my Solicitor the other day and I suppose he is fairly middle of the road price wise and only charges £190 per HOUR , or £1,900 per day, which is £9,500 per week, or £38,000 per month, onto £456,000 per year!

So whether it is worth it is not the question, it is priced on what it WOULD cost for the labour.

It is nothing more than tounge in cheek marketing, which seems to get peoples attention!

If some-one has the money and wishes to buy one then they can. That is why a Bugatti Veyron is around a £1,000,000 no-one said it was worth it.

But back to the original poster, I smell a rat here, I think this may be Nick Jones, one of the Manchester based farm it out tailoring set ups, who some time back was on a programme about the biggest spending individuals in the UK.

On this programme I saw one of Nicks clients, who came into Nicks establishment and shelled out around £15K for one of Nicks factory made specials, and a couple of other suits at around £8-9K each, Yes, factory clobber all sold as bespoke, No Nick your stuff is not genuine bespoke, the £15K suit was a Scabal diamond chip number at £400 odd quid per metre... all I can say about the finished product is they were a LONG way short of the mark in both fit and quality, but if Nick can get that price for doing nothing but fit a client on..then hey ho good luck to him.

So I have some reservations about the actual reasoning of this post?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Silly. As if every single stitch a tailor does by hand is unequivocably better than what he could do with, say, a sewing machine. Nonsense.
> 
> To the tailor: either give me more photos to see, or give me a better reason to visit North Lincolnshire.
> 
> .


You read my mind. Since when has hand stitching been considered better than strong, tight, even machine stitching? I'll take a machine stitched parachute any day of the week!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

£30,000? I wouldn't even pay £3,000 for a suit!


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## mancpack (Oct 16, 2007)

*Maid Marrion strikes again*



des merrion said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I have made my point VERY clear regarding the £30K suit.
> 
> ...


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

If someone wants a £30k suit, it is there choice. Des offers a product and it appeals to some people, albeit very few people. *We have had the discussion of whether it is worth it or not and we should leave it at that, instead of continuously attacking Des.*

Harrods had a customer spend £30k at 3Billionaire. Maybe we should start a thread about that.

Some people do not think bespoke is worth the cost or would not purchase it, I think bespoke is worth it and would purchase it. I would not spend £30k on a suit, even if I had the money but someone might.
On the BBC documentary about Savile Row, a Richard Anderson customer had a £14k blazer made, guanashina and baby cashmere (£7k) with gold buttons (another £7k). That customer clearly though it was worth it. If I had that much to spend, I would swap the gold buttons for 2 pairs of trousers in super 250's.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

JibranK said:


> I read somewhere about a prince who wanted his pinstripes to be made of 24 kt gold or something. Probably something of that sort.


That's certainly possible.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

2 suits a year, working full time I suppose to produce? that's 60k minus tax and material......not a great income for a great tailor. And of course he would have to be great to attempt a suit made like this.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

In Walkers book on Savile Row there is a price list for tailors on how much they get paid per section of garment or garments and how long it takes per section. At the end I think it totaled 21 1/2 hours. These garments were all hand sewn back in those days. You would be hard pressed to fine a tailor today who can do that. In the old days when there were no sewing machines and the only way to sew is with thimble and needle in hand you would become fast and you would sew very straight. A sewing machine sews about 5,000 stitches per minute, whereas, the tailors of past did something like 33 per minute. You can see it is very hard for the needle and thimble guy to compete against the sewing machine in price. But even today the best tailors use needle and thimble sewing for about 95% of the coat. So when you buy bespoke you are paying for time and tailors are underpaid. 

As far as the parachute goes a properly hand sewn one is probably much safer. If you have ever seen a hand sewn coat by a master, who only did hand sewing, the sewing machined coat cannot compete in quality.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Another story from Walkers book on Savile Row is one tailor was such a perfectionist that he could only make three suits a year. Each stitch had to be perfect.

Another old tailor that I have talked to said that ski pants and horse riding pants the seat seam needs to be hand sewn for strength and flexibility because those two activities create lots of stress that a machine sewn seam cannot handle properly.


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

mancpack said:


> des merrion said:
> 
> 
> > Gentlemen,
> ...


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

Not that it relates directly to this conversation, but I am wearing, right now, a suit Des made for me. I like it (though I owe him a return of the waistcoat since it needs to be adjusted). He also made another suit for me. If he were still traveling to NY, I would be happy to keep using him.

Neither suit was of the £30,000 variety.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Is this thread what made Des withdraw his blog?


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

culverwood said:


> Is this thread what made Des withdraw his blog?


Saw that. WTF?


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

No Gents it did not, I got out of the wrong side of bed.

The truth is though, I would love to get hold of some of these prats and hammer it out with them...literally!


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

des merrion said:


> No Gents it did not, I got out of the wrong side of bed.. . .


That is not allowed in the fantasy land of the internet. Here, everyone is perfect all the time.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

dopey said:


> That is not allowed in the fantasy land of the internet. Here, everyone is perfect all the time.


Thank you, thank you, thank you. But what I'm I perfect at?

Des makes perfect sleeve caps.


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## mvarela (Jul 5, 2006)

If John Thain can spend USD 30,000 on a toilet then perhaps Mr. Merrion is underpricing his suit at GBP 30,000. 

As for Mr. Merrion, his work comes highly recommended and I look forward to becoming a customer in the future -- albeit for more humble items.


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## BeyondBespoke.com (Oct 8, 2008)

Although I am not familiar with Desmond Merrion Bespoke, after perusing the articles (he wrote) on his website, he seems to talk down to his "competition" and makes other tailors look incompetent compared to him.

Confidence is good. Ego is bad.


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

BeyondBespoke.com said:


> Although I am not familiar with Desmond Merrion Bespoke, after perusing the articles (he wrote) on his website, he seems to talk down to his "competition" and makes other tailors look incompetent compared to him.
> 
> Confidence is good. Ego is bad.


I hope it does not come across like this to everyone, that is not the intention.

I do however have a habit of straight talking and saying things as I see them.

I do try to be objective and clear with my weblog postings, but being a man, I am not very good at lots of things and damn useless at most things!


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Audi S5 TC, are your posts tongue-in-cheek or serious, with their mathematical pronouncements? You always right things like "top ten" this or ""95% hand-made" that, do you honestly believe you can evaluate tailors without actually trying them? Do you think very likely that all the best tailors in the world will be identified on the internet? I am just curious because being OCPD myself, I would love for my life to be so Euclidean and algebraic. But it is not.


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## BeyondBespoke.com (Oct 8, 2008)

des merrion said:


> I hope it does not come across like this to everyone, that is not the intention.
> 
> I do however have a habit of straight talking and saying things as I see them.
> 
> I do try to be objective and clear with my weblog postings, but being a man, I am not very good at lots of things and damn useless at most things!


Dear des_merrion;

Good to know you are not like that. You have a lot of knowledge about the industry as per your articles, and it is good to see such honest truth as I know many things you said are true.

I still would have preferred a less harsh tone against other tailors in your articles. It's almost like if one medical doctor said that most other medical doctors take shortcuts and don't do the job right, the overall confidence the general public places in medical doctors would diminish. If one tailor says other tailors take shortcuts and don't do the job right, it is diminishing the overall confidence in tailors in general.


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## mvarela (Jul 5, 2006)

Well said, however, I must say that I find Mr. Merrion's obvious passion refreshing in a world where it seems that cutting corners has become the norm. I am not qualified to judge the substantive claims in the debate but it is nice to see that people care passionately about the issue.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

BeyondBespoke.com said:


> Dear des_merrion;
> 
> Good to know you are not like that. You have a lot of knowledge about the industry as per your articles, and it is good to see such honest truth as I know many things you said are true.
> 
> I still would have preferred a less harsh tone against other tailors in your articles. *It's almost like if one medical doctor said that most other medical doctors take shortcuts and don't do the job right, the overall confidence the general public places in medical doctors would diminish.* If one tailor says other tailors take shortcuts and don't do the job right, it is diminishing the overall confidence in tailors in general.


Would that be altogether a bad thing, at least in the case of doctors? My own impression, having played a role in seeing four close relatives (two aging parents and two siblings with cancer) through prolonged periods of involvement with physicians, hospitals, and the healthcare industry over the past few years, is that the skill, knowledge, and level of concern of physicians are probably a good deal more variable than most of us laypeople would like to believe.

I for one find it refreshing that Mr. Merrion is willing to "tell it like he sees it" rather than being bound by some kind of_ omerta_ about his guild.

In the case of doctors, one could argue that diminution of public confidence in them is dangerous insofar as it might deter individuals who need a physician's care from seeking same, but obviously no one's life depends on custom tailoring, so what's the harm in Mr. Merrion pointing out tailors whom he has reason to believe overhype the level of service and craftsmanship that they offer? That he's willing to do so publicly and in his own name only increases my sense that he's a straight shooter.


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## Infrasonic (May 18, 2007)

BeyondBespoke.com said:


> Dear des_merrion;
> 
> Good to know you are not like that. You have a lot of knowledge about the industry as per your articles, and it is good to see such honest truth as I know many things you said are true.
> 
> I still would have preferred a less harsh tone against other tailors in your articles. It's almost like if one medical doctor said that most other medical doctors take shortcuts and don't do the job right, the overall confidence the general public places in medical doctors would diminish. If one tailor says other tailors take shortcuts and don't do the job right, it is diminishing the overall confidence in tailors in general.


Whilst I agree with your sentiment, I think you will find this sort of competition/bitching is fairly standard (in the UK at any rate). Certainly each of the the SR houses consider their own methods superior to the others, and having had many conversations with various tailors in Manchester, they all have good (a few) and bad (many) things to say about each other! 
Claiming to be bespoke (in house) whilst farming out to factory set-ups seems to be one of the things that really gets the older tailors wound up. (Justifiably so in my opinion).


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

des merrion said:


> The truth is though, I would love to get hold of some of these prats and hammer it out with them...literally!


A lot of us are with you on that.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

A good question is, "What is tailoring?" Some manufactureing has no tailoring in it. That means the people sewing, pattern maker, and so on are not tailors. Just because a real tailor is working in a clotheing factory doesn't mean he is doing any tailoring there, or enough to call the garment tailored. There is also the fact that anybody sewing garments in a factory is called a tailor for tax purposes, even though they are not tailors. The word tailor is use rather losely. And, even if somebody is doing some tailoring in a factory, does that make him/her a real tailor? I don't consider somebody who pad stitches lapels all day a tailor. I do say no pad stitching no tailoring. In todays world fitting has to be part of the tailoring, too. In some ways m2m seems to be tailoring, but it really isn't, even though it may have some tailoring in it and lots of choices and with minor fittings. The word tailor is so blurred few know what it is. A tailor is a highly skilled craftsman. Remove the highly skilled part and you don't have a real tailor. Lets say you go to somebody to make a jacket and they put fuse in the lapel instead of pad stitiching it- that would be custom, but not tailored, even if the guy is a real tailor. This one fine tailor used premade canvases; he made beautiful clothes, I wish I hadn't critized him, and he never charged enough. Tailored methods have been developed over hundreds of years. Manufactured methods are different.

When you are around a real tailored garment there is something magical about it. Or you could say, "It has magical qualities."


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Infrasonic said:


> I think you will find this sort of competition/bitching is fairly standard (in the UK at any rate).


+ 1

Quite a few tailors, shoemakers, hairdressers have that nastiness towards their colleagues (at least in front of potential customers). 
Everyone claims their way of doing things is the only correct way and everyone who ventures just 1 inch differently, is wrong.

Rather like good, old Wanda Landowska, who threw famously that infamous remark at her colleague Rosalyn Tureck:

"You play Bach your way, and I'll play him *his* way."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanda_Landowska

Joke is that Tureck's interpretations are far closer to modern sensibilities than Landowska's, played on a monstrosity that sounds like a fairground organ.

There is no right or wrong way of doing anything.

*It's the result that counts.*


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## BeyondBespoke.com (Oct 8, 2008)

It appears that there is a cultural difference between USA and UK. Competition in Savile Row, England is so cut-throat that perhaps one must have talk down about the competition. I now agree that Des Merrion Bespoke is absolutely correct to have that attitude with current trends in the tailoring industry to cut corners. Bespoke does not necessarily mean "bespoke" these days.

You may find the following two links interesting:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/21...-lose-fight-to-preserve-the-term-bespoke.html


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

The trouble with any word is language evolves over time, one time maybe all tailors were Bespoke, it wasn't until MTM became popular in the early 20th century that Bespoke meant a superior product. 
There are some tailors who are a cut above factory made to measure, but not quite Savile Row Bespoke, the way I see it is, if a tailor is honest about his methods and charges a fair price for his work then that's fine by me.
I've got good suits at three different price points, I try not to worry about whether any or all are either MTM or Bespoke, nobody would agree on the definitions anyway, what I like about Des is he deals in facts and lets the reader work it out in his own mind.


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## Infrasonic (May 18, 2007)

outrigger said:


> The trouble with any word is language evolves over time, one time maybe all tailors were Bespoke, it wasn't until MTM became popular in the early 20th century that Bespoke meant a superior product.
> There are some tailors who are a cut above factory made to measure, but not quite Savile Row Bespoke, the way I see it is, if a tailor is honest about his methods and charges a fair price for his work then that's fine by me.
> I've got good suits at three different price points, I try not to worry about whether any or all are either MTM or Bespoke, nobody would agree on the definitions anyway, what I like about Des is he deals in facts and lets the reader work it out in his own mind.


+1
Absolutely. I find DM's honesty refreshing. Yep he's a blunt Yorkshireman, and he's not really interested in playing politics or worried about putting a few noses out of joint.

He doesn't claim to be the best tailor in the world and if you look at the timing of when his £30k suit went on the site, it was just after a certain WW (RIP) had claimed all sorts of self appointed awards on this site at the tender age of 27. Des was having a laugh. 

Every industry has its b******t, I have worked in the music industry for twenty five years, believe me I know.


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## mancpack (Oct 16, 2007)

*Facts are key*



des merrion said:


> mancpack said:
> 
> 
> > B......t!
> ...


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## mancpack (Oct 16, 2007)

BeyondBespoke.com said:


> It appears that there is a cultural difference between USA and UK. Competition in Savile Row, England is so cut-throat that perhaps one must have talk down about the competition. I now agree that Des Merrion Bespoke is absolutely correct to have that attitude with current trends in the tailoring industry to cut corners. Bespoke does not necessarily mean "bespoke" these days.
> 
> You may find the following two links interesting:
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/21...-lose-fight-to-preserve-the-term-bespoke.html


I wholeheartedly agree with you but as your links suggest the ASA in the UK have made the wrong decision


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## nicksull (Sep 1, 2005)

It is amazing that the sillier the proposition the longer were prepared to talk about it. What an idiotic waste of money. 

I cant see any degree of hand work that's worth that much - its a gimmick that could backlash tho...I wonder for example if Des's conventional customers might begin to think how much proportionately less quality they're getting in their suits. 
After all if it costs 30k to get 100% hand stiching, what do you get for 3k? Mighty Mendit and some Sellotape? Makes you think.....


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