# Review of NYC Custom Tailors



## Proton 6 (Jul 2, 2006)

I have been a keen observer of the forum for the past two weeks and have learnt many new things. However, I've noticed a worrying tendency on the part of many members to make unqualified assertions about many NYC tailors without having any first-hand experience whatsoever. Many members seem to revel in simply regurgitating information/opinions of highly regarded members.

I have extensive experience with NYC tailors and have used quite a few over the last 15 years. I have provided my review below in an effort to correct some misconceptions common on this forum.
Also, please keep in mind that the concept of "house style" is only relevant when talking about Savile Row tailors - most of the NYC tailors will make virtually anything you like.

Nino Corvato: Nino makes a beautiful garment and is my primary source of high-end bespoke suits. I have three beautiful suits from Nino and all three sport soft shoulders, a structured, but soft, chest (i.e. thin lining), and a trim, close to the body, torso. The waist is also nipped but not much.

Leonard Logsdail: A couple of members have implied that Len makes a very stiff coat a la Huntsman. This is not true - I have one suit from Len, and it is more Poole than Huntsman - natural shoulder, a lot of waist suppression, mild drape. Quite a nice garment and it was $4K well spent - I just prefer Nino's style a little more - purely subjective - Len is very talented and personable.

Lucio @ Visalli / Traguardo: Not a good garment at all for the price - I paid $1,600 for a pseudo-bespoke garment and the style and fit is unfortunate at best. Not recommended at even half the price.

Ercole: The best value in the city (ok, Brooklyn) for under $2K - good fabrics, decent styling, good fit and good honest people who will endeavor to satisfy the customer.

Izzy @ LS Men's: Never quite understood why people love Izzy here - his suits are forgettable. His tailor is not qualified to fit garments, and the fabrics are very mediocre. I realize its MTM so my hopes weren't too high, but Izzy did not turn out well at all. He's a nice guy but at $650-$750 one would be much much better served by going to Mr. Ned.

Mr. Ned: Good people, nice styling and, unlike many others in the city, willing to work with the customer to get things right. I paid $950 each for my two suits and am very satisfied at that price.

Brooks Brothers MTM (Digital Tailoring): Yuck, enough said

Belvest MTM @ British American House: Do NOT go to British American - they will give you a shoddy ill-fitting garment and insist vigorously that it fits perfectly and that the customer is being a pain. And that's for a $2,200 MTM job. Double...no Triple Yuck.

Any MTM @ Barneys NY: Sad, just sad. If I were ever in the mood to be fitted for a suit by idiots, I would go here.

Alan Flusser MTM: Pretty good for the price ($1,500). The suit is made by Southwick, is draped but still stylized with a nice chest-waist drop. Good fabrics as well, and the salespeople have excellent taste.

I have experience with some of the traveling SR guys as well if anyone is interested.

Best,


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## kali77 (Apr 8, 2006)

Excellent write up. It is greatly appreciated! I will be going to NYC at the end of August and was thinking of scheduling an appointment with Mr. Ned.

Gene


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Welcome Proton 6. Nice to see a new member with a bit of experience.

I must note, however, that most new members offer at least a bit of unattributed background information before posting a review in which some businesspersons are strongly and publicly relegated to the dustbin. 

I further note a bit of inconsistency in your selections, to wit: Why would one who has the ability to use Nino and Len have bothered with the others listed? 

Looking forward to your fleshing yourself out a bit in the interest of fairness and hopefully before a similar review of the travelling Row guys. Please note for the record that, though I know most of them, I have never used nor shall I be using any of those you mentioned.


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## Proton 6 (Jul 2, 2006)

Hi Alex - all fair points. As for my background, I am a corporate lawyer in my late 40s working in Manhattan. I first discovered fine clothing in my early 30s and have slowly built up a collection over the past few years.

Why one would use tailors other than Len or Nino simply comes down to finances. I have 3 Corvato suits, 1 LL suit, and 3 suits from varying Savile Row tailors. Sadly, my better half will not allow me to spend $4,000 on all my suits so I have to supplement my wardrobe accordingly. Furthermore, I travel constantly and refuse to wear my top suits when clearing airport security and having my suit all wrinkly after a long flight.

On the issue of fairness, I am not in the industry so have nothing to gain from taking sides - you can very easily discern from my posts that I have said complimentary things about $900 tailors as well as $4,000 tailors. Are Mr. Ned's suits comparable to Corvato's? - no ofcourse not, but they are excellent for the price and much better than those offered by many others.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Thank you, P6. 

Now, just give me a few minutes with your wife and I'll show her a few bespoke women's pieces. We'll get that budget redirected properly yet.


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## lee_44106 (Apr 10, 2006)

welcome, Proton 6. I have no personal experience with any of the tailors you mentioned except British American House. Almost ten years ago I purchased a few suits (Canali, Corneliani, Zegna) and thinking back about my experience I must agree with your assessment. I can't speak for the MTM program but the salespeople (at least at that time) only wanted to make a quick sale and could care less if the suit fitted properly. My biggest gripe, however, goes to the tailors that they employ. I had a Zegna suit destroyed by the amateurish attempt at making functional sleeve buttons. To date the said suit sits in the closet as I cannot bear to wear it.


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## JMH (May 2, 2006)

Interesting, insightful assessment, Proton 6. 

Do you have experience with shirtmakers that can share in a similar fashion?


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## Alan David (Jun 22, 2006)

Proton 6 said:


> I have been a keen observer of the forum for the past two weeks and have learnt many new things. However, I've noticed a worrying tendency on the part of many members to make unqualified assertions about many NYC tailors without having any first-hand experience whatsoever. Many members seem to revel in simply regurgitating information/opinions of highly regarded members.
> 
> I have extensive experience with NYC tailors and have used quite a few over the last 15 years. I have provided my review below in an effort to correct some misconceptions common on this forum.
> Also, please keep in mind that the concept of "house style" is only relevant when talking about Savile Row tailors - most of the NYC tailors will make virtually anything you like.
> ...


I am a custom tailor similar to Mr. Ned. I agree with your reviews. I am curious to know what you think of the Martin Greenfield product.

Also...being that I am new to this site I am a bit baffled by one thing. Obviously the members of this site are intelligent and seem to enjoy wonderful quality. Havind said that, what is the facination with Hong Kong. I have experimented with suits over there and I cannot believe anybody would endorse them (unless you go to Hong Kong and deal directly).

For custom shirts I guess I can understand it ieasie. There is less make to a shirt than a suit. But how can anybody compare or even speak of a suit from Hong Kong?

Looking forward to your input.

Happy July 4th


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## Proton 6 (Jul 2, 2006)

Thanks everyone.

Alex - Thanks, but no thanks - I'd rather not bankrupt myself J

JMH - I have used the same shirtmaker (Ascot Chang) for the last 5 years and have always been very happy with them. My best friend is religious in his devotion to Turnbull & Asser, and they make a fine product, but their bespoke is horribly expensive.

Alan David - Interesting point about the tailors in HK. To be honest, I have one suit from H. Baroman which turned out very well, but then again I was in HK for 3 weeks on business and got fitted in the showroom itself, instead of opting for the traveling tailor arrangement.

I have experience with 3 Savile Row tailors - Maurice Sedwell (Andrew Ramroop), Dege & Skinner, and Henry Poole.

Maurice Sedwell: I got my suit from Andrew Ramroop a few years ago when I was in London very consistently for several months working on a large deal. I am very very happy with this suit - the key advantage I feel was being fitted by Andrew himself. I got three fittings and received a very nice windowpane suit in Holland & Sherry Super 120s. Natural shoulders (roped) with decent waist suppression and a very clean line.

Dege & Skinner: Got my suit via their frequent visits to NYC. The key with the traveling tailor business is to have patience. D&S has a very distinct cut, but, at the same time, they are fairly flexible in terms of adapting their house style to better serve a customer. For example, I asked them to keep the extreme nipped waist but soften the shoulders and chest (a deviation from their house style) and they had no problems doing so. The final suit turned out very well but took over a year to complete.

Henry Poole: Again, a very good experience but the suit itself took very long to complete (1+ year). Poole was recommended to me by a very senior partner at my firm, and it was good advice. Nice, middle-of-the-road, Savile Row cut - soft shoulders, mild drape, some waist suppression etc. Recommended, but only if you realize that you won't get your suit within 3 months.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Proton 6:

Great post!


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## montmorency (Apr 16, 2005)

Does anyone have any experience with Gilberto? I have never read a post by someone who actually has had a suit made there.


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

Proton 6,

Do you have any experience with/knowledge of Winston Tailors?


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## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

I guess as my last besoke garment was made by my grandma out of a flower sack (or perhaps a feed sack), I'm somewhat mystified as to the hassels of bespoke with the sometimes unhappy results. Is it that when it's right, it's too wonderful to behold? Is it the journey that the fulfillment with the end product almost a collateral? Or is it like jazz--if you have to ask then you'll never know? How is it different than walking into Bergdorf and both my wife and me seeing a Kiton suit and saying that it's the one--style, texture, color, etc? Or is it just late and I don't know what of I speak?


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## Proton 6 (Jul 2, 2006)

Sorry sweetbones - I have no experience with Winston.

kitonbrioni - Bespoke is a tricky business - when its right, it is far far far better than anything you can imagine in RTW or MTM (incl. Kiton, Brioni, Oxxford and the like). When its wrong, its like an average fitting RTW garment (never much worse), except you spent $4,000, waited 3 months and were hoping to look like James Bond.


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## Fabrizio (Dec 25, 2004)

*Like your post*

Of the names you mention, I have only tried Logsdail and have been very, very happy. (I've gone bespoke and will never go back.) On the traveling SR side, I do have something underway with Stephen Hitchcock and I am awaiting the results.

I too have built up a "travel" wardrobe over the years, mostly with Oxxford off-the-peg and a few rounds of MTM from my old friend Carmine Fabrizio, and it is indeed necessary to have some suits that you can subject to the plane without worry. My big problem now is that, even though I have many suits, I feel like I don't have enough suits, primarily b/c the only ones I'm happy pulling out of the closet are the 7 Len has made me so far.

Curious as to whether you ever considered Raphael or Nicolosi in your obviously thorough NYC experience?


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## rssmsvc (Aug 5, 2004)

Hello Proton 6,

Quick question , do you think the measurements were wrong or that Belvest screwed it up ?



"Belvest MTM @ British American House: Do NOT go to British American – they will give you a shoddy ill-fitting garment ..."


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## Proton 6 (Jul 2, 2006)

Belvest makes a fine garment - the contruction of the suit is quite good. It was the British American people who screwed up the fittings.

I've never tried Raphael or Nicolosi - I'm happy with Corvato so have no reason to try out new people.


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## Morris (Feb 13, 2006)

Welcome and nice post Proton 6.

A follow up question to you or the group. Thoughts on RL MTM? Same categories - quality, cost, experience, expertise, etc.


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## Proton 6 (Jul 2, 2006)

Never used RL MTM - sorry


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## Fabrizio (Dec 25, 2004)

*Fair enough*

Sounds like you've tried 'em all so I was just curious as to how you found your way to Nino and Len in the high-end price range as opposed to others.


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## Proton 6 (Jul 2, 2006)

Len through an article in Cigar Aficionado, Nino via a recommendation from a friend whose style I had always admired


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## SartoNYC (Feb 22, 2005)

*I was going to ask about Chipp / Paul Winston ...*

My experiences with Paul Winston at Chipp have been excellent.

Excellent with bespoke, excellent with MTM, excellent with alterations.


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## jdewey (Mar 28, 2005)

Proton 6:

What's your take on William Fioravanti?


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## Proton 6 (Jul 2, 2006)

Never used him - sorry. From what I've seen his cut is very Brioni-esque - he's probably the only NYC tailor with a definitive "house style" - expensive as well - $6,000 I believe


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

Proton 6 said:


> . . . Izzy @ LS Men's: Never quite understood why people love Izzy here - his suits are forgettable. His tailor is not qualified to fit garments, and the fabrics are very mediocre. I realize its MTM so my hopes weren't too high, but Izzy did not turn out well at all. He's a nice guy but at $650-$750 one would be much much better served by going to Mr. Ned.


I have used Izzy to copy a pair of bespoke trousers. His pantsmaker did an excellent job and I was very satisfied. I know that is different than his suit-making operation, but nonetheless, I did not want to let your general complaint go unremarked upon.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

Proton 6 said:


> I have been a keen observer of the forum for the past two weeks and have learnt many new things. However, I've noticed a worrying tendency on the part of many members to make unqualified assertions about many NYC tailors without having any first-hand experience whatsoever. Many members seem to revel in simply regurgitating information/opinions of highly regarded members.
> 
> I have extensive experience with NYC tailors and have used quite a few over the last 15 years. I have provided my review below in an effort to correct some misconceptions common on this forum.....




Proton 6, thanks for the post. While the review may be harsh on some sellers, I detect no attempts to do anything other than give your opinion as a consumer.

I think such reviews are very helpful as there are no shopping guides for mens wear except for the occasional ones written by journalists who may or may not know about mens clothing.

Two things jumped out at me in the review:

1) Your comments about MTM offerings reinforces the impression I get from other posts in this forum. While in theory MTM should give a better fit than OTR, it seems in practice the sucess of MTM depends greatly on the skill of the person taking your measurments. In most cases it seems that OTR + well executed alterations as needed is a better route.

2) In the bespoke range, I see a pattern in people running into trouble (or simply not being fully satisfied) with low- to mid-range bespoke and semi-bespoke. This seems to be an area where you can either end up with a great value or something that is not quite right.

One suprise came later, in your comment on Fioravanti, "he's probably the only NYC tailor with a definitive "house style"." I was lead to believe they all had some sort of "house style". Interesting, though it makes sense on some levels, NYC being crossroads with so many people with so many differing preferences.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Lino said:


> I was lead to believe they all had some sort of "house style".


I disagre with Proton on this. I think most of them do. Some are just more flexible than others.


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

Thank you Sarto. From my own conversations with Paul Winston, I am coming to regard his shop as one of the best values in the city for a traditionally cut suit.

In regards to Izzy's pantsmaker, wouldn't he be using the same source as other New York tailors? I have heard/read that there are only two or three such operations in New York, and all the tailors from Winston, Raphael, Izzy etc. use them.


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## Alan David (Jun 22, 2006)

dopey said:


> I have used Izzy to copy a pair of bespoke trousers. His pantsmaker did an excellent job and I was very satisfied. I know that is different than his suit-making operation, but nonetheless, I did not want to let your general complaint go unremarked upon.


Hello out there. I cannot believe that you could make a remark like that. Izzy is a great guy, run a fabulous off the rack store. But his custom clothing is not even a factor. I cannot understand why anyone would give any pair of trousers, no less a bwspoke pair, to LS to knock off. No offense, of course, but I have to believe your satisfaction was more luck than anything else.

I admit, I am biased being a custom tailor myself, but being a custom tailor I know quality and make, so please, lets not compare him to the others you have mentioned.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

lino said:


> One suprise came later, in your comment on Fioravanti, "he's probably the only NYC tailor with a definitive "house style"." I was lead to believe they all had some sort of "house style". Interesting, though it makes sense on some levels, NYC being crossroads with so many people with so many differing preferences.


 Perhaps it could be rephrased to say that Bill, widely credited with the strong shouldered/suppressed waist "Power Look", has the "most specific house style". I would consider that to withstand most scruitiny.


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## CharlieChannel (Mar 16, 2006)

*Thanks Proton 6 and My Thougts Greenfield & Gilberto*

Good work, Proton 6, much appreciated.
I like Greenfield, well made. Certainly takes 2 fittings but
so what? The experience is enhanced by working with Jay
Walter, now with Venanzi on West 56th near Bergdorf.
You know what I'll say about Gilberto: LOTS of you have
worn their custom work, so many of the independents -
including Oxxford famously - send their work there. They
have a no-kidding paper pattern there for a certain pressident
initialW. If Oxxford makes his suits there, count on it, they
make YOUR suits there too. So I've always wanted to
go there direct, but location (West 30s) is a pain.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

A few comments:

Charlie Channel-Hunter's implication that Oxxford has had Gilberto make and alter President Bush's Oxxford suits is very comic.

When President Bush was President-Elect he placed an order through Harold's, a Texas clothier. His father recommended him to Harold's, and Harold's set-up a fitting on the Crawford ranch. Since it is an honor to clothe the president, Oxxford sent its then CEO, Crittiden Rawlings, and its head tailor, Rocco. This was well documented on the former Oxxford website.

When President Bush was first inaugurated Oxxford took an ad in the NY Times congratulating "its customer." The ad is framed in the store.

President Bush had used the services of Gilberto in the past in an indirect manner. Then Governor Bush had bought suits from a Texas custom tailor who had Gilberto made the suits on a CMT basis. This was documented in a NY Times article which discussed CMT by Gilberto and Rocco Cicarelli (phonetic).

There is no basis to a claim that Gilberto either made or altered President Bush's Oxxford's suits. Why would a clothing factory with 200 tailors send-out its work to Gilberto? I'll mention this to the guys at Oxxford so that they could get a good laugh.

Incidentally, President Bush has also purchased suits from Georges de Paris, a Washington, DC, tailor.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

Alan David said:


> Hello out there. I cannot believe that you could make a remark like that. Izzy is a great guy, run a fabulous off the rack store. But his custom clothing is not even a factor. I cannot understand why anyone would give any pair of trousers, no less a bwspoke pair, to LS to knock off. No offense, of course, but I have to believe your satisfaction was more luck than anything else.
> 
> I admit, I am biased being a custom tailor myself, but being a custom tailor I know quality and make, so please, lets not compare him to the others you have mentioned.


Twice in this thread you have referred to yourself as a custom tailor, which is no skin off my nose. But using it to criticize is Izzy at LS is pretty outrageous. As best I can tell, and using only your own posts for information, you are no more a custom tailor than he is. Your shop, like his, doesn't produce custom, it produces made to measure. And neither of you are even tailors. You are both salesmen or measurers, or, to be fancy, fitters. You send measurements out to Coppley and he sends them to H. Freeman. Bit neither of you actually make the suits or employ the people who do. You both use someone else's factory. If you can go into an empty room with a pile of cloth and some trimmings and come out with a suit then you can call yourself a tailor. If you can also draft the pattern and cut the cloth yourself then you are really a custom tailor. As far as I can tell, you can do neither. And you have to be the only custom tailor who has to ask on a message board what kind of cloth is fresco. If you want to criticize someone else's work, then do it on the merits and not behind the authority of a title you don't really deserve.

As for the substance of your comment, I would appreciate it if you would explain yourself a bit more. Why shouldn't I give Izzy a pair of trousers to copy? And why do you say especially not bespoke ones. It seems logical to me that if you are going to have a pair of trousers copied, bespoke ones, which fit very well and are made precisely to my measurements, are a better start than a pair of RTW trousers that don't fit as well. And why do you say Izzy's success is luck? Why shouldn't a real tailor, who actually makes pants for a living by measuring customers and then cutting and sewing the cloth himself, not be able to take a pair of already made trousers and duplicate the measurements? I was not in the least bit surprised that the pants I got back fit nearly identically to the bespoke ones. Why are you? Where the pants I got from LS are inferior to the bespoke ones is in the quality of trimmings and the amount of handwork. In that sense there is no comparison. But as far as I can tell, the fit is pretty close to perfect.

Are you familiar with the pantsmaker Izzy uses? This is not the H. Freeman factory he uses for his suits, although I have been told that he can also split a suit order up with the jacket done by H. Freeman and the trousers done locally. I have no interest in his suits so I have not explored this. If you are familiar with the work of his pantsmaker, how would yours be better? For that matter, how would yours be better than the H. Freeman ones? As I have no more than a passing familiarity with H. Freeman and none with Coppley this is as good a place as any for me to learn.


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## Smooth Jazz (Apr 28, 2004)

Different people

The guy Izzy uses is quite good for the price -- I get some odd trousers from him and they are quite good

Raphael uses some of the same people as Shattuck and Nicolosi -- but, as you mentioned, the tailors cut the pattern in this case -- worksmanship is a notch above the person Izzy uses -- final price is 3-5x as much



dopey said:


> I have no idea to what degree your general statement is true or whether it applies to Izzy's pantsmaker. I can tell you that Izzy's usage, at least in my case, is quite different from how Raphael uses a pantsmaker. Raphael drafts the trouser pattern and cuts the cloth himself. I know because I have seen him do it, and have been summoned to him on one occasion mid-cut. He then bundles the cut cloth with some trimmings and sends it off to be made. Izzy does not draft patterns, and in my case, the trousermaker simply copied an existing pair. I know others who have used the same guy without going through Izzy and the trousermaker did the measuring and, presumably everything else. In theory, Izzy's guy should need a few extra skills than Raphael's guy. On the other hand, the trousers I got from Raphael were made to a much higher standard and used better materials. Maybe they are the same guy, maybe they are not, but I can't really tell.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

*Dopey is no Dope*



dopey said:


> Twice in this thread you have referred to yourself as a custom tailor, which is no skin off my nose. But using it to criticize is Izzy at LS is pretty outrageous. As best I can tell, and using only your own posts for information, you are no more a custom tailor than he is. Your shop, like his, doesn't produce custom, it produces made to measure. And neither of you are even tailors. You are both salesmen or measurers, or, to be fancy, fitters. You send measurements out to Coppley and he sends them to H. Freeman. Bit neither of you actually make the suits or employ the people who do. You both use someone else's factory. If you can go into an empty room with a pile of cloth and some trimmings and come out with a suit then you can call yourself a tailor. If you can also draft the pattern and cut the cloth yourself then you are really a custom tailor. As far as I can tell, you can do neither. And you have to be the only custom tailor who has to ask on a message board what kind of cloth is fresco. If you want to criticize someone else's work, then do it on the merits and not behind the authority of a title you don't really deserve.
> 
> As for the substance of your comment, I would appreciate it if you would explain yourself a bit more. Why shouldn't I give Izzy a pair of trousers to copy? And why do you say especially not bespoke ones. It seems logical to me that if you are going to have a pair of trousers copied, bespoke ones, which fit very well and are made precisely to my measurements, are a better start than a pair of RTW trousers that don't fit as well. And why do you say Izzy's success is luck? Why shouldn't a real tailor, who actually makes pants for a living by measuring customers and then cutting and sewing the cloth himself, not be able to take a pair of already made trousers and duplicate the measurements? I was not in the least bit surprised that the pants I got back fit nearly identically to the bespoke ones. Why are you? Where the pants I got from LS are inferior to the bespoke ones is in the quality of trimmings and the amount of handwork. In that sense there is no comparison. But as far as I can tell, the fit is pretty close to perfect.
> 
> Are you familiar with the pantsmaker Izzy uses? This is not the H. Freeman factory he uses for his suits, although I have been told that he can also split a suit order up with the jacket done by H. Freeman and the trousers done locally. I have no interest in his suits so I have not explored this. If you are familiar with the work of his pantsmaker, how would yours be better? For that matter, how would yours be better than the H. Freeman ones? As I have no more than a passing familiarity with H. Freeman and none with Coppley this is as good a place as any for me to learn.


That was one helluva post. Ouch.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Smooth Jazz said:


> Raphael uses some of the same people as Shattuck and Nicolosi -- but, as you mentioned, the tailors cut the pattern in this case -- worksmanship is a notch above the person Izzy uses -- final price is 3-5x as much


Yes, but remember, that higher price is not merely because one trousermaker is more expensive than the other. With the first guy, he just takes measurements and produces what is basically a MTM trouser, no handwork, all work done by him. The other trousermakers who take bespoke work do charge a little more by the piece, it is true. But they use more handwork. Also, you are also paying for the bepoke tailor's pattern drafting, cutting, fitting, and (in some cases) finishing. So really there are two people to pay, each adding value, which in part accounts for the substantially higher price.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

son of brummell said:


> Incidentally, President Bush has also purchased suits from Georges de Paris, a Washington, DC, tailor.


Ack, you mean that tailor that leaves bumps in the back of the jacket? For shame. Hasn't he closed his doors since that terrible tailor-induced wardrobe-malfunction during the dabates? And to think, it happened twice!

--snark mode off--

Seriously, I still think Georges got a dum rap for those dumps and never should have taken the blame.


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## Alan David (Jun 22, 2006)

dopey said:



> Twice in this thread you have referred to yourself as a custom tailor, which is no skin off my nose. But using it to criticize is Izzy at LS is pretty outrageous. As best I can tell, and using only your own posts for information, you are no more a custom tailor than he is. Your shop, like his, doesn't produce custom, it produces made to measure. And neither of you are even tailors. You are both salesmen or measurers, or, to be fancy, fitters. You send measurements out to Coppley and he sends them to H. Freeman. Bit neither of you actually make the suits or employ the people who do. You both use someone else's factory. If you can go into an empty room with a pile of cloth and some trimmings and come out with a suit then you can call yourself a tailor. If you can also draft the pattern and cut the cloth yourself then you are really a custom tailor. As far as I can tell, you can do neither. And you have to be the only custom tailor who has to ask on a message board what kind of cloth is fresco. If you want to criticize someone else's work, then do it on the merits and not behind the authority of a title you don't really deserve.
> 
> As for the substance of your comment, I would appreciate it if you would explain yourself a bit more. Why shouldn't I give Izzy a pair of trousers to copy? And why do you say especially not bespoke ones. It seems logical to me that if you are going to have a pair of trousers copied, bespoke ones, which fit very well and are made precisely to my measurements, are a better start than a pair of RTW trousers that don't fit as well. And why do you say Izzy's success is luck? Why shouldn't a real tailor, who actually makes pants for a living by measuring customers and then cutting and sewing the cloth himself, not be able to take a pair of already made trousers and duplicate the measurements? I was not in the least bit surprised that the pants I got back fit nearly identically to the bespoke ones. Why are you? Where the pants I got from LS are inferior to the bespoke ones is in the quality of trimmings and the amount of handwork. In that sense there is no comparison. But as far as I can tell, the fit is pretty close to perfect.
> 
> Are you familiar with the pantsmaker Izzy uses? This is not the H. Freeman factory he uses for his suits, although I have been told that he can also split a suit order up with the jacket done by H. Freeman and the trousers done locally. I have no interest in his suits so I have not explored this. If you are familiar with the work of his pantsmaker, how would yours be better? For that matter, how would yours be better than the H. Freeman ones? As I have no more than a passing familiarity with H. Freeman and none with Coppley this is as good a place as any for me to learn.


Looks like I hit a nerve with you.

In one facet you are correct-I am not a tailor, that term I used to loosely.

I am not attacking anybody, I am jsut stating a fact. I am a lot more familiar with the Freeman product than most people. It is a glorified seperates program and if you think differently them you are incorrect. Check your facts.

Also, 90% of what I do with Coppley is blue pencil. I am their largest single store account in the United States which probably gives me a little bit more to stand on than your off-the-cuff remarks. I sold close to 700 suits last year so forgive me if I do not have as much extra time on my hands to just post.

Why would you give a bespoke pair of pants to anyone but a bespoke maker? Would you bring your Mercedes in to a Toyota dealership for a tune-up. Yes, of course they can get it right but does that make it a wise choice.

As far as asking about fresco cloth, I am always learning. I do not claim to know everything but I know that my original post was not a post to critisize someone else. Read it again with an open mind and you will see that. And if it was offensive, I apologize. Again, I know Izzy, he is a great guy, has a great store . But in my opinion, just no great for custom.

I you want to get personal, fine. But that gets no where and just tells me that you are no such a secure person to begin with. Your post was a direct slap in the face to me, with intent, it was personal and I do not
appreciate it.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

Let's start again. You did hit a nerve with me. You disparaged another business, which competes with you, publicly and without any specific explanation. That is what offended me. I really didn't mind your comment about copying bespoke trousers except that it made no sense to me and your analogy to a car tune-up does no better. I will come back to that, but it is less important.

If you read my post again, you will see that I did not criticize your business as I have no experience with it or with Coppley suits. (This thread on Style Forum discusses Coppley's quality but I can't vouch for its accuracy.) I have no idea whether what they make for you is better or worse than what H. Freeman makes for Izzy. If you know and can explain it, that would be great. What I did criticize you for is claiming that you are a custom tailor. That criticism had two parts. First, you are a made-to-measure operation, blue pencil or not, that uses a factory. That is not real "custom". More importantly, in that regard you are no different than LS though your contract-factory may be better or worse than his. I know enough from speaking with Izzy and from reading reports of other posters about the degree to which H. Freemen will modify their patterns for him to say that your referring to his made-to-measure program as "glorifed separates" is simply wrong. I am not in this business, but I can't imagine you will be a popular guy if you criticize your competitors publicly so carelessly. I would love to hear what makes your product great, but you can probably explain what you do without putting others down (and especially when you don't provide backup).  The second criticism of you was that you were not a tailor. On that we agree. And by the way, there is no reaon why you have to be a tailor to get good results for your client. If you are good at measuring and fitting and can work well with the tailors who make the clothes, you can get a great product. I only made an issue of it because you used your claims of being a custom tailor to bolster your authority in criticising someone for not being a custom tailor when he, in fact, does exactly what you do. To the extent my criticism of you was personal, it was because you used personal claims about yourself to attack someone else. I don't know you and neither like you or dislike you. There was nothing personal in my comments except in the way I explained.

I will point out though, that in some regard, Izzy may provide more of a custom service than you do in that he can break up the manufacture of a suit. Rather than having the entire product made by H. Freeman, he can have the jacket done by H. Freeman, the trousers done by his guy and the vest done by one of the New York vestmakers. That is all customer's choice. I have no idea why this makes sense and don't feel like tracking it down, but it does show some interesting flexibility. If you don't do this already you might consider it yourself. Perhaps Coppley can do better than any of the NY sources. If you have thoughts on this I would love to hear them.

Now - to the copying of the trousers. Let me say again what I did. I took a pair of my own bespoke trousers to LS to have copied. As someone pointed out, the cost differential is about 4x. If that isn't sufficient explanation for my motives, consider this. Izzy has a guy who makes pants full-time. It seems sensible that he can take a pair of pants made by someone else, sit in his shop with a tape measure and measure away to his heart's content, duplicate the pattern and then sew and cut a new pair of trousers based on that pattern that is identical in fit to the first one. I don't know if that is the process he actually used, but the result was about 95% accuracy on fit. You called it luck, but to me it was the expected outcome. Just to be clear, only the fit and the details were copied. The sewing and the trimmings (e.g., pocketing, buttons waist curtains, etc.) were not as good as the bespoke trousers (and the details were not copied as well as the fit, e.g. the shapes of the side tabs or the feel of the waistband). Smoothjazz earlier said they were a notch below Raphael's outsourced product. I would say more than one notch.

Here is what you initially wrote:


> I cannot understand why anyone would give any pair of trousers, no less a bwspoke pair, to LS to knock off. No offense, of course, but I have to believe your satisfaction was more luck than anything else.


I can't tell whether you think the whole project was a dumb idea or whether you think using bespoke trousers as the template is the dumb idea or that it makes a dumb idea even dumber. I am guessing you mean the latter - a dumb idea made dumber.

I think I have already explained why getting a pair of well-fitting trousers copied by an experienced trousermaker is a sensible idea in general. I don't think I can do much better but if it is still unclear to you I will try. As for the choice of template, it seems obvious to me that if you are copying an article of clothing you will get a better fitting result if you use as your template a bespoke article that fits well than a RTW article that fits less well.

Here is your explanation of why you disagree:


> Why would you give a bespoke pair of pants to anyone but a bespoke maker? Would you bring your Mercedes in to a Toyota dealership for a tune-up. Yes, of course they can get it right but does that make it a wise choice.


 I fail to see the connection. The pantsmaker is copying them, not giving them a tune up. Does the meauring harm them? Do you think he is ripping them apart and then re-sewing them? If that were the case, I would agree with you and I would not have used bespoke trousers, or for that matter any trousers that weren't ready for the dustbin. It was not the case. The trousers were taken, measured and returned to me with the new pair (or earlier if I had wanted them back in a hurry). If this still makes no sense to you then let me know why.

I am sorry if we got off to a bad start but we did. I hope this post did a better job of explaining why I reacted as I did than the first one. Either way, I have no personal animus towards you or your business and wish you success. If I am welcome in your showroom, I would be glad to stop by when it opens. It is just a few blocks away.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

I know enough from speaking with Izzy and from reading reports of other posters about the degree to which H. Freemen will modify their patterns for him to say that your referring to his made-to-measure program as “glorifed separates” is simply wrong. 
--------------------
Can you give an example of modifications that Izzy can and cannot do to a jacket pattern? I understand that certain modifications would require a bespoke pattern, but would like to know the possible range of modifcations that Izzy can do and what falls outside that range.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

rkipperman said:


> I know enough from speaking with Izzy and from reading reports of other posters about the degree to which H. Freemen will modify their patterns for him to say that your referring to his made-to-measure program as "glorifed separates" is simply wrong.
> --------------------
> Can you give an example of modifications that Izzy can and cannot do to a jacket pattern? I understand that certain modifications would require a bespoke pattern, but would like to know the possible range of modifcations that Izzy can do and what falls outside that range.


I have no idea what falls outside of his range.

He specifically mentioned that he can raise armholes, move the waist and buttoning point around and reduce (but not eliminate) padding. If medwards does not come to my rescue and post links, you can do a search on this forum and style forum to see the specific changes people who used him have had him do. I seem to recall that someone had a severe shoulder drop but I cannot be certain.

As I mentioned earlier, I have not been interested in his MTM program, at least not for suits, so I did not explore the topic in depth. He was nonetheless happy to talk about what was and wasn't possible and seemed pretty straightforward about it.

If I can extrapolate from your general question, it is my belief that the success or limitation of an MTM program is going to be very dependent on how well the measurer knows the fit of the base product line, how good he is at identifying the things that need to be changed and how good he is at communicating the changes. In other words, the success in fitting of Oxxford MTM, to pick a neutral example, is something that can only be evaluated with reference to where you order it. Izzy is reputed to do H. Freeman very well but I am only repeating his reputation. I cannot vouch for it myself.


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

dopey said:


> I have no idea what falls outside of his range.
> 
> He specifically mentioned that he can raise armholes, move the waist and buttoning point around and reduce (but not eliminate) padding. If medwards does not come to my rescue and post links, you can do a search on this forum and style forum to see the specific changes people who used him have had him do. I seem to recall that someone had a severe shoulder drop but I cannot be certain.
> 
> ...


I do know that if a request falls outside his range he will be honest and tell you so. He recommended a friend of mine use Greenfield for that reason.


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## amerikajinda (Nov 11, 2005)

*Best Quote Ever*



Proton 6 said:


> Any MTM @ Barneys NY: If I were ever in the mood to be fitted for a suit by idiots, I would go here.


Great quote! I love it!


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Alan David:

Welcome to Ask Andy's. The mild criticism you received today was peanuts compared to the atmosphere around here a few years ago. Be happy it's now and not then!

Just a few short bits of advice:

If you misuse a term here, realize that of the 7,000+ members, at least 25% will know *exactly* what the term means and take you to task (none too nicely) for that misuse. Calling yourself a custom tailor when you don't actively make patterns, cut and sew will result in roasted (well-done) Alan David. I am a custom tailor. I don't actively make suit patterns, cut, and sew. So I don't call myself a custom tailor. I don't even call myself a tailor. I call myself a custom shirtmaker because I actively take shirt measurements, make shirt patterns, cut, and sew shirts.

For God's sake, don't criticize a competitor. Don't even criticize a garment if you know the maker or can see the label unless it is a garment out of your field (like my shirts). Here you have three choices: 

1-Ignore your competitors 
2-Compliment your competitors 
3-Get your a$$ handed to you multifold



> Also, 90% of what I do with Coppley is blue pencil. I am their largest single store account in the United States which probably gives me a little bit more to stand on than your off-the-cuff remarks. I sold close to 700 suits last year so forgive me if I do not have as much extra time on my hands to just post.


 Don't boast. Nobody cares. All tooting your own horn will getcha around here is a lot of traffic noise directed right back atcha.

Finally, spend a bit of time and learn who the knowledgeable members here are. Dopey ain't dopey. He's one of the most expert members here when it comes to custom clothing. That's one reason I won't make clothes for him. He knows too much. :icon_smile_wink: He came at you, and rightfully so with both guns blazing, because of your criticism of LS.

A glance at the members list will tell you who has been around and posting for a while. I hope you find this information helpful.


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## Alan David (Jun 22, 2006)

*ok*

Thanks for the tip


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

I hate it when I miss a good dispute, as I apparently did today.


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## montmorency (Apr 16, 2005)

Well said, Alex. Just to follow up, it is one thing for a member who is not in the industry to criticize the work of a particular tailor or merchant, when based on actual experience. In fact, that is useful and a good source of information for the others. It is quite another thing for this forum to be used by one person in the industry to criticize a competitor. Alan David may not have intended for his post to come across that way, but it did. It seems that the lesson was learned and I look forward to continued postings by Alan David. I am interested in learning more about his Coppley MTM program and what he offers, what type of suit construction (full canvassed, half canvassed or fused) and what flexibility there is in varying the styling and silhouette.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

montmorency said:


> Well said, Alex. Just to follow up, it is one thing for a member who is not in the industry to criticize the work of a particular tailor or merchant, when based on actual experience. In fact, that is useful and a good source of information for the others. It is quite another thing for this forum to be used by one person in the industry to criticize a competitor. Alan David may not have intended for his post to come across that way, but it did. It seems that the lesson was learned and I look forward to continued postings by Alan David. I am interested in learning more about his Coppley MTM program and what he offers, what type of suit construction (full canvassed, half canvassed or fused) and what flexibility there is in varying the styling and silhouette.


 D'accord!


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Since the AK says AAAC has turned over a new leaf (and I believe it, though many call me a naif), I want to address something else AAAC can get better, under the guidance of the most senior and expert moderators including AK, and that is ratings.

First of all, I am shocked (and always have been) about the lack of information about two of the most interesting tailors in NYC (from the perspective of someone who does not live in or know NYC), Traguardo and Ercole.

Second, the ratings of tailors sucks, plain and simple. It does not come close to the kind of minute analysis that we can expect about shoes. I have read (like everyone else) Jcusey's shoe pyramid, and while I do not have a fraction of his experience, everything he writes seems spot on, and we are talking about pretty subtle distinctions.

The last tailor ranking (if you could call it that) was the Mark-Grayson-endorses-Raphael-and-everyone-else-sucks one, not exactly useful.

Though I cannot know for sure, the top tailors seem all to be cut from the same cloth, no pun intended.

But tailors in the second tier, these are where distinctions can really be made. All things considered, and based on my reading of what other people write about their favorite tailor, my tailor in Philadelphia is a 9 (he charges $2000 CMT). My developing world tailor (who makes suits for $160 CMT) is a 7, all things considered except price, which would not be fair. I would rate the famous Neopolitan pantsmaker Ambrosi a "10" for construction. I would rate the famous Florentine shirtmaker Bugelli a "10" also, for construction. Frankly, I am not sure I have really seen a jacket that was a perfect "10." And I have not seen jackets by any of the most important tailors in the major capitals. Also, I do not think one could compare the service of Bugelli (for example) to customers he has never met in a distant city (like me), with the service the AK (for example) provides to New Yorkers.

I suggest Zagat-like ratings. For example if we rated construction/fit/flexibility/service/price, I would rate my Philadelphia tailor 9/10/7/10/9. Vis a vis the price thing, obviously developing world tailors are not strictly comparable. My Romanian tailor would be 7/10/6/8/NR. In any event, you get the idea.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

It really isn't so easy to rate tailors. It's in the nature of the work that the results are variable. And taste plays a huge factor in who likes what. I have seen suits from the same tailor, some I love, some I can't stand. Some tailors have made things for me that I did not like, yet I have seen their clothes on others and found them stunning. Conversly, some who have made things for me that I adore have also made things for others that I just don't think that highly of.

RTW shoes are altogether different. There are clear and quantifiable differences between what many makers do. At the level of the top NY tailors, the differences are small and mostly not related to quality. A few might be, but how important are they? Some tailors use pre-made (i.e., machine basted) collars rather than cutting and basting their own. Some even buy pre-made, machine basted canvas. Can you always tell in the finished product? Can you SEE or FEEL the difference? If not, how much could it really matter?


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

I understand that there is garment-to-garment variability. Also that one tailor might be strong in one item and another in something else. But after everything, a suit is a product meant to be worn and it serves a purpose. I disagree with your distinction between shoes and suits, it is a "distinction without a difference." 

Take my Bugelli shirts. Terry Teplitz saw his shirts and was extremely impressed. I am pretty sure Terry and I have very different taste, yet we could agree, though we saw different shirts and we have never met (and Terry knows a lot more than I do), that Bugelli's workmanship was superb. Michael Alden and I have never met, and to say he knows more than me would be an understatement. Yet he wrote that Ambrosi's pants were the best in the world and when I saw them, I easily agreed. There are constants.

So far as fit and inter-garment variability, a good tailor should not fluctuate that much. Besides, the fact that you cannot make minute distinctions between tailors should not discourage someone from making gross distinctions. Maybe there are small differences between Shattuck, Logsdail, and Nicolosi, to take three of the best known, that would be difficult to quantify. But all this means to me is that they are pretty close and would all receive the same rating, more or less.

Of course, the rating is no better than the rater. Were MG to go ape over some tailor because he boxes rather than bags, the rating would not be very useful. But some people seem very measured.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

David Bresch said:


> I disagree with your distinction between shoes and suits, it is a "distinction without a difference."


All I mean is that it is much easier to state what separates (say) a Lobb Paris with the "bookmaker" sole from an EG from a Grenson Masterpiece and so on. The construction and finishing details are clear and easy to spot. With tailors, this is much harder. You can't see the quality of the canvas or the pad stitching, for instance, unless you cut the coat open. Even then, does the mere fact that Raphael uses a machine made collar make him, on that basis alone, inferior to Nicolosi? I don't think so.



> Maybe there are small differences between Shattuck, Logsdail, and Nicolosi, to take three of the best known, that would be difficult to quantify. But all this means to me is that they are pretty close and would all receive the same rating, more or less.


That's all I'm saying. Thus ranking these guys is hard and probably pointless. All I really know is who I like best and who works best for me. That's all any of us can know.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

If I may volunteer to get my head bitten off and jump in the middle here, I think you are both agreeing. What Dr. Bresch is seeking is not a rating of the tailors acknowledged to be in the top tier. This, as you have both pointed out, would be pointless. Here, the major distinctions are style and personality.

What is sought is some sort of a measurement of the tailors who don't command $4-5-6,000 per suit. The "middle tier" if you will.

I would opine that this is something which could be accomplished over a long, long period of time. It would require the contributions of many members. A list of tailors would need to be compiled and agreed upon. Someone would need to set up general criteria (as Dr. Bresch has proposed a basis for). And then we'd have to wait as members filled in the blanks. To pull a number from thin air - with the assumption that someone would go back through a few years of threads and cull previous rating info - I would presume this ratings thread would begin to have some important meaning around 2009-2010.

With the polling abilities of vBulletin 3.4.5 (which we are currently running) it may be possible to set this up. I'll look into it in September after my Summer school closes.


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

I am David's wife. When he read that the AK agreed with him, and that he thought that Manton and he were saying the same thing, he passed out. We are trying to resuscitate him.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

David Bresch said:


> I am David's wife. When he read that the AK agreed with him, and that he thought that Manton and he were saying the same thing, he passed out. We are trying to resuscitate him.


If you are really David's wife and he has really passed out, surely you can find a better way to take advantage of this golden opportunity than posting on a message board. I am not suggesting you dress him in a chicken suit, tape a sign saying "RJMan come back to me" on his back and leave him on the Vesper boat launch, but you should be able to think of something. At least tie his shoelaces together. That's what my wife would do (and why I can never sleep).


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

dopey said:


> If you are really David's wife and he has really passed out, surely you can find a better way to take advantage of this golden opportunity than posting on a message board. I am not suggesting you dress him in a chicken suit, tape a sign saying "RJMan come back to me" on his back and leave him on the Vesper boat launch, but you should be able to think of something. At least tie his shoelaces together. That's what my wife would do (and why I can never sleep).


 Dopey Bobbitt? Kinda has a nice ring to it, eh?


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## Leonard (Apr 29, 2004)

Now I'll jump in and, I am sure, will get my head bitten off.

Liking or disliking a tailor is far too personal for a grading sytem to be put in place. How can it be possible to come up with a comprehensive list of 1 through ten top tailors. I have a group of clients who consider my suits to be OK who would not dream of going to Rafael, who has a group who would dream of going to Nicolosi, who has a group who would dream of going to Fioravanti, who has a group who would not dream of going to mauritzio who has a group who would not dream of coming to me. And so it goes. Each client considers their tailor to be the best "for them". So how can you come to a decent decision regarding who is top of the list, etc? Impossible. 

Certainly, I would not be happy to see such a list. Unless, perhaps, it was my clients who compiled it!!!!!!

No, let's stick to what we have in place. Healthy discussion on the various merits of tailors. And nothing more.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Leonard is right. 

There are too many varibles for a numbering system. They each have there own insights. They each have there own way of making patterns. Each have ways of construction that is different, even among the tailors that they use. For example, if Leonard use eigth tailors, then one customer may like jackets made from one of them and not the others, whereas, another customer may like a different tailor that Leonard uses. So it ends up like comparing apples to orange with a numbering system.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

manton said:


> Some tailors use pre-made (i.e., machine basted) collars rather than cutting and basting their own. Some even buy pre-made, machine basted canvas. Can you always tell in the finished product? Can you SEE or FEEL the difference? If not, how much could it really matter?


The above creates a rather hazy gray area between higher-end RTW (those with full canvas and perhaps some hand work) vs. custom/bespoke.

At that point, we are accepting we do not know what is in the suit beyond the fabric. We do not know the internals are done, was the canvas and colar purchased ready made (and altered) or are they made from scratch from a pattern made for the customer.

All that is left at that point it fabric quality (not a reflection of the tailor's skill), cut and fit-plus a few details and some handwork.

Wasn't there once a rating system of 1 to 6 to rate tailoring (if not tailors) based on how much handwork there was? Can something like this be resurrected? It may help us in talking about various suit makers, both bespoke and RTW.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Lino- pre-made, machine basted canvas

There are a number of things that go into a full bespoke. Personal patterns, fittings, etc. When they put in pre-made, such as machine basted canvases, then it becomes semi-bespoke in my opinion. Clearly other people have other ideas about what bespoke is.

Pre-made takes away options. While pre-mades can be shifted around some the customer looses some. Hand made opens many doors; how there angled, long or short, better use of cuts, such as darts. A shorter haircloth creates a softer coat. Putting the main canvas on bais creates a softer coat. Better locations for darts. You may want darts in one canvas and not the other. Putting cuts in better places. 

Each customers body is different, so how can one use the same pre-made canvas to get the best? Hand basting allows the tailor to put in even more shape into the canvas. For example, a pre-made collar foundation is machine basted flat and all the pressing to shape it will not give as much as one that is hand basted into some shape and then pressed futher into shape for that customer. Without hand basted canvases is there any tailoring in the jacket? Even a seamestee can do the rest. Although, pressing is a tailors art.

A cutter/tailor can do very nice work using pre-made parts, but some of the craft and art is gone. Some cutters/tailors that uses pre-made parts are better than some that don't.


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

I do not agree Leonard. Any of Manton's and your remarks could apply to restaurants, movies, or books, all of which are rated and critiqued semi-objectively all the time. Plus, Leonard, you are supposing that ratings would distinguish you for better or worse from the other most famous tailors in NYC.

I don't really need to hear another rating of you or Raphael. Everyone knows you are amongst the top tailors in the USA. Whether your style appeals to me or not is a separate issue and I would have to experiment. But there are plenty of tailors without your enormous reputations. I could learn a lot about them if ratings were codified.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Movies are indeed rated all the time. In San Francisco, the newspaper pays a guy to write reviews. And I know from experience that anything he gives a rave review to will be one of the worst movies of all time, for me personally.

From that experience I conclude that someone can go to a lot of trouble to rate tailors subjectively and once I have a couple of suits made so I can determine whether I agree with him, there may some usfulness to the ratings.


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## alebrady (Oct 14, 2004)

David Bresch said:


> I do not agree Leonard. Any of Manton's and your remarks could apply to restaurants, movies, or books, all of which are rated and critiqued semi-objectively all the time. Plus, Leonard, you are supposing that ratings would distinguish you for better or worse from the other most famous tailors in NYC.
> 
> I don't really need to hear another rating of you or Raphael. Everyone knows you are amongst the top tailors in the USA. Whether your style appeals to me or not is a separate issue and I would have to experiment. But there are plenty of tailors without your enormous reputations. I could learn a lot about them if ratings were codified.


Not to be disrespectful to your post but i disagree with the analogies, somewhat. Yes, restaurants, movies, and books are all 'reviewed' but i think there are more standardized parameters to do so. For instance, sure you can get a rating of steakhouses - for the most part (even though there is some level of subjectivity) you are probably more likely to find a common consensus from the general public on what constitutes a good steak. Furthermore, restaurants (and movies/books) can be much more easily categorized (i feel) than something as aesthetic/esoteric as a suit. What constitutes a good action movie or a great mystery novel - much easier to find common ground on than what shape shoulder or trouser details is preferable.

More apt analogies would be rankings of painters, musicians, actors...clearly even these can be categorized, however (much like clothing), i think it would be much harder to define a consensus on what constitutes 'good' ones.

of course any ranking needs to be used as just a piece of information, along with other information, and is not in itself definitive....but i think rankings of the latter would be an even less useful piece of information...just my opinion though


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

I think the idea here is not to try to quantify the differences between people at the level of a Raphael or a Len Logsdail. Any differences in any area that can be somewhat objectively defined or quantified are - from what I have read - so small as to be completely overshadowed by unquantifiable factors such as personality.

The idea is rather to trace out broad bands among tailors that are not at that level. Here price could serve as a crude proxy for level of craftmanship - the idea is not to split hairs among the 3k+ crowd but rather to settle who falls approximately where in the 1k - 2.5k range. 

On the face of it, it seems as though that group will be more easily differentiable than the top group.


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## Des Esseintes (Aug 16, 2005)

I tend to agree with David on this topic. 

Surely, you cannot precisely measure one tailor's quality, fit, style, etc against another's, however, some kind of rating system could most probably be developed that would give guidance (relative and subjective, inevitably) to those who are rather new to custom tailoring, or just have not had any experience with a particular tailor, and simply want to see how others "score" them. This is, in my opinion, nothing else than a somewhat formalised and simplified summary of the usual long and winding discussion about such a topic on this forum, and it inevitably comes with all the advantages and disadvantages of such a simplification and more rigid structure.

I also believe that the restaurant analogy is a good one - eating is another rather subjective and multi-facetted experience, some will love, say, French or Indian food, others will avoid it wherever possible. Nevertheless, a Michelin guide star rating (or others) is very useful if you want to get a rather subjective and also somewhat simplified but generally widely respected assessment of a particular restaurant's quality - within the boundaries of its particular "style" (ie, cuisine), to guide your own choices. I don't think something like the "Ten Best Restaurants in the World" list, as compiled every year, is very helpful - some people will always prefer the French Laundry, others El Bulli, others the Fat Duck - but the established restaurant guides allow you to adjust your expectations and make a (more) informed choice.

The difficulty will be to get the categories and the scoring system right. And to ensure the scoring is based on a representative sample, as AK points out or clearly labelled as a "one off" experience. With the appropriate disclaimers and qualifiers, readers might find even such scores useful.

Just my thoughts, of course...

dE


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## Leonard (Apr 29, 2004)

Personally, I would rather not be rated, and for a number of reasons. Take Smoothjazz and Manton, both of whom visit me on a regular basis, but choose not to have their clothes made by me. They prefer, for one reason or another, other tailors. And we talk quite openly about this. Sometimes, a suit one or the other is wearing is, to me, not what I would have made. But it's not my suit, it's their's and they must wear whatever they please. I do not consider this an insult to my abilities. I consider this personal choice. And this is where a rating system stinks and sinks. Whomever is deemed worthy to make the ratings is automatically biased by his own preferrences. And I disagree, quantifying tailors is vastly different to quantifying a book or a movie. You sit and read a book or watch a movie, and then it's done. Your relationship with your tailor is an ongoing thing as he works on creating a two-dimensional piece of cloth into a three-dimensional garment that has to pass muster from all sorts of opinions and look good and be functional all while maintaining a jovial attitiude that may, or may not, sit well with the client depending on his own mood at any given time and his own personality. You can't compare this to a book or a movie. Sorry.

I do not care to be at the top of a rating system as I would consider this completely unfair to the abailities of other tailors lower on the table. niether would I like to be at the bottom of the ratings as I would consider this unfair to my abilties. Healthy discussion and personal preferrences of members should easily enable those interested in weeding out the frauds from the authentic and the underlying personality of the tailor with whom you will, should you decide to go with him, spend a lot of time for the remainder of your clothes-buying life.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Let me just add two things:

1) Len did make a suit for me some years ago, one that I wear every summer (the cloth is very light). The fit and balance are as good as any suits I own, from any tailor. Cut-wise, I have just gone in a different direction.

2) Smoothjazz introduced Len to a new client not long ago, and I have seen the clothes Len has made for this gentleman, and they look absolutely terrific on him.


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Leonard is right in the artistic realm, he cannot be rated. Art cannot be rated. But tailoring is not just art. It is a business that makes a product that serves a purpose. The product has to be ordered and delivered.

Leonard declares himself hors concours and that is fine, seeing a top rating for him or another petulant gripe by a Grayson-type character is like reading criticism of Taillevent, interesting but something that adds luster and does not detract.

People in NYC consider Centofanti an enigma but to Leonard and other top people in the profession, he is also hors concours. In fact, I compare all clothing to his work, for better or worse. But what about Di Pietro, this South Philadelphia tailor without much of a reputation, or Emilio, with a small reputation?

Just because ratings don't exist, does not mean we cannot make them. I hate Zagat but its rating system is as good as any. I would suggest construction/fit/style/flexibility/cost. Cost would be objective, so that it was directly proportionate to cost and not value. I would rate my beloved Centofanti 9/10/8/7/$2000, with the last number representing the cost CMT of a suit. My Romanian tailor would be 7/10/5/6/$160. I think I am being objective. That does not mean I am right, just that I am trying to see things with someone else's eyes.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

David Bresch said:


> Leonard is right in the artistic realm, he cannot be rated. Art cannot be rated. But tailoring is not just art. It is a business that makes a product that serves a purpose. The product has to be ordered and delivered.


Thinking about what I do for a living, which is in it's own way custom work, I would not want to be rated either. That said, I am always looking for ways to show I am better at what I do than other designers or to at the least differentiate myself.

What if, rather than a rating, there was something more akin to a guide? Something that listed say:
--contact info
--type of work done (MTM, Semi-bespoke, bespoke, etc.)
--short bio or stats
----years in the business
----where the person learned their craft
----important mentors
----major influences
--list of house styles
--basic price range
--fabrics
--select client list (perhaps not)
--production methods (kept in general terms, just enough to let customers what they are getting, but not so much that it puts people under a microscope); i.e., everything done by hand in-house, some of it farmed out, etc.
--perhaps a number system like the 1-6 for how much work is done by hand how much by machine.

The objective would not be ratings, but to gather and organize information so that a consumer can compare.

I also suggest first doing it on something other than custom tailors (like OTR suits or shoes) so that problems can be worked.



David Bresch said:


> But what about Di Pietro, this South Philadelphia tailor without much of a reputation, or Emilio, with a small reputation?


Not long after I started reading this list and SF, I started getting the feeling that both groups tended to keep coming back to the same tailors, not always because they are the best (and some notably are), but because those are the ones that have been written about before. I keep thinking there may be a number of untapped resources throughout the area that are unintentionally kept off the radar.



David Bresch said:


> Just because ratings don't exist, does not mean we cannot make them. I hate Zagat but its rating system is as good as any..


There are a number of problems with Zagat's system. The most notorious is that the ratings in the Zagat tend to influence how people rate restaurants-this means everyone more or less simply keeps getting the same ratings not because the establishment has been consistent, but because people give the same ratings they saw in the book.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

David, another problem with the rating system is, Who is going to try all of these guys in order to rate them? At least with the Michelin guide, the reviewers don't have to pay for their own meals. Zagat is more democratic, I understand, but unless clients of these other, less-discussed tailors somehow find the forum, we won't be able to read their ratings because we don't know how to find them.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Lino said:


> What if, rather than a rating, there was something more akin to a guide? Something that listed say:
> --contact info
> --type of work done (MTM, Semi-bespoke, bespoke, etc.)
> --short bio or stats
> ...


For as much as I would personally love to be able to see that infromation for all custom tailor or even all custom tailors in NYC, I would imagine that very, very few would be willing to answer that sort of survey.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

*I give this thread a "10"*

There is too small a pool of potential participants for a Zagat rating system.

Furthermore, I find the Zagat guides to be of limited value. A typical entry is: "Regulars praise its 'old world food and friendliness' while others wince that 'it's a cemetery with waiters.'" I never look at the number system.

I guess that there is nothing wrong with having your own internal Zagat system as some guys have their own rating for women who pass down the street. ("This one is ten. That one is a seven.") But, how do you put a rating on a life's experience? How do you rate a tailor who re-cuts a coat at no charge because he wants to make you happy? How do you rate a tailor who is a magician with the shears but very difficult to do business with? How do you rate a tailor who steers you away from bad cloth and style choices?

And, how can you give a Zagat rating to the experience of having a suit made in Romania?


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

son of brummell said:


> And, how can you give a Zagat rating to the experience of having a suit made in Romania?


"Regulars praise his 'old world suits and friendliness' while others wince that 'he cuts in a cemetery with vampires.'"


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

Cantabrigian said:


> For as much as I would personally love to be able to see that infromation for all custom tailor or even all custom tailors in NYC, I would imagine that very, very few would be willing to answer that sort of survey.


Yup, I agree. There has to be something in it for them and you have to figure out what the taboo subjects are and leave them out.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

son of brummell said:


> There is too small a pool of potential participants for a Zagat rating system.
> 
> Furthermore, I find the Zagat guides to be of limited value. A typical entry is: "Regulars praise its 'old world food and friendliness' while others wince that 'it's a cemetery with waiters.'" I never look at the number system.


This is why serious foodies prefer the NYT ratings or Michelin guide.


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## dopey (Jan 17, 2005)

Between Ask Andy, Style Forum and the London Lounge, something like that already exists, although in chaotic form. 


For my own use, I keep a flat database of thousands of articles on all sorts of subjects and have made a habit of clipping threads from these sites that have useful information, including ones that have tailor reviews. I can pretty easily retrieve references to tailors that I thought were worthwhile enough to save (such as Proton 6’s at the beginning of this thread). Having done this for a while, I also have a reasonably good sense of how to interpret different people’s opinions. That makes it useful to me.* On the other hand putting it into a form that is useful for others, especially in the sense that David suggests would be a monumental undertaking.

I believe there is a trade association that Leonard and Chris have mentioned from time to time. If someone wanted to begin compiling the hard data of the type Lino suggested, that would seem to be a good place to start. 

* What I really wish is that I had taken the time to put down all I have learned in conversation with so many helpful people. But I am not that industrious.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

dopey said:


> Between Ask Andy, Style Forum and the London Lounge, something like that already exists, although in chaotic form.


If someone wanted to do such a thing (and I don't because I do not have enough time on my hands), perhaps it should pull from all three forums (I know there is overlap, but there are some who just read one or two out the three-I for one would love to read all thress, but mostly read AAAC, SF when there is time, and take a peak at old threads at LL once in a while).


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Manton, I thought of that problem (that we do not have a way for people to try all these tailors) and it is a definite issue that I do not have a solution to. This is why my rating is a sort of fantasy exercise of no utility.

Zagats sucks, I am a foodie and I never use it. But the ratings system seems useful enough.

So far as my Romanian tailor is concerned, I am comparable to all those people who have business in Hong Kong and get to visit Jantzen and the big three in person, or the Indians I have envied who go to Dehli or Bombay regularly. If you beg and promise not to tease me, I may describe the process by which I use him, which actually makes for a good story. But no racist remarks about vampires. I have repeatedly exposed my wife to garlic without effect, and she definitely throws a reflection. Besides, what is wrong with a little vampirism?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

David Bresch said:


> Manton, I thought of that problem (that we do not have a way for people to try all these tailors) and it is a definite issue that I do not have a solution to. This is why my rating is a sort of fantasy exercise of no utility.
> 
> Zagats sucks, I am a foodie and I never use it. But the ratings system seems useful enough.
> 
> So far as my Romanian tailor is concerned, I am comparable to all those people who have business in Hong Kong and get to visit Jantzen and the big three in person, or the Indians I have envied who go to Dehli or Bombay regularly. If you beg and promise not to tease me, I may describe the process by which I use him, which actually makes for a good story. But no racist remarks about vampires. I have repeatedly exposed my wife to garlic without effect, and she definitely throws a reflection. Besides, what is wrong with a little vampirism?


 Happy to see Mrs. Bresch managed to rescusitate you.


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## Smooth Jazz (Apr 28, 2004)

On the whole ratings issue -- may be I am beating a dead horse -- but do we really need them? Nearly all (some have indeed escaped attention on these forums) of the really good tailors in NY have been discussed at great lengths on these forums. You could get a great suit from any of them -- the only variables are personal preferences -- as to what you like. House styles and price have also been discussed on AA and elsewhere at great length. Would a 29 for Len vs. a 27 for Raphael on any category make you want to try one over the other? 

As Len said, this is about personal preferences and a long-term relationship with your tailor -- can that really be quantified in a few numbers?


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

You are not beating a dead horse. But I agree, ratings for the top tailors are like following the Michelin stars, more for chit chat than anything else. Ratings would be more useful at the next tier. Plus, I know NYC SEEMS like the center of the world and the only city that matters, but some of us live elsewhere and don't feel like going to NYC.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

Smooth Jazz said:


> On the whole ratings issue -- may be I am beating a dead horse -- but do we really need them? Nearly all (some have indeed escaped attention on these forums) of the really good tailors in NY have been discussed at great lengths on these forums.


Have they? If you mean the top-tier, then you may be correct, but I still think there are a lot of rocks unturned.

There are a number of good tailor from South and Central America in NYC and have not seen reviews of them. I used Flormont Tailor off Union Square at 857 Broadway, and while I am not an expert on these matters as of yet, I can say that he worked miracles on a suit that was about 12 years old. He took an old Cricketeer that I purchased for my college graduation and life beyond, which my wife hated, and altered it so that it not only fit correctly, but my wife no longer hates the suit-it's not one of her favorites, but she can not find fault in it anymore. I beleive he also does custom work.

There are some Hong Kong trained tailors in NYC and I have only seen one thread on SF about one of these guys. But, the thread started about a month before the gent closed up shop to retire.

In addition, I am sure there are more tailors in Brooklyn who are basically unknown.

There seem to be legions of tailors on the Upper East Side who offer mostly alterations, but some also do custom work. When up that way, I am always amazed by how many tailor there are in that area compared the dearth of tailors in other areas of the city (not counting dry cleaners).


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

One more thought on this rating thing.

Another way to do this is to create a system that only allows people to report the positive.

There can also be a way for people to check off if they are reporting based on first hand experience or what they have heard or read. This would do two things: 1) it would hopefully filter out hearsay from first hand accounts, 2) once separated the first handers info can be used for compiling the main body of info and the hearsayers can be used for a "word of mouth" index (some may see value in how much positive word of mouth a business gets, others may see it as representative of the echo chamber effect of the on-line world—in either case, it would be interesting).

Personally, I'd want to know if others had negative expereinces with a business, and this could be added in a non-specific way. There could be a question at some point as such: "Have you have had a negative expereince with this business/product: yes, no; if yes, how many times; please rate the level frustration caused by the negative experience 1 2 3 4 5 (or some such thing). Keeping it non-specific keeps things from focusing too much no the negative.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

A few examples of tailors we do not see mention of on the forum:

-- Michael Andrews
-- Flormont Tailor
-- Alfonso Sciortino Custom Alerations
-- Bhambi's get's the occational mention, but no much else, the best that can be said for them so far is that no one has said anything bad about them (which is a lot), also I know the Zegna and Borelli (sp?) shops recommend them (I've used them for alterations and I like them a lot).
-- Traguardo is in the same boat as Bhambi's
-- Ercole gets more mentions, and some positive nodes, but still seems a bit of a mystery.
-- Eddie Ugras, though I do not know if he does only alternations.
-- French American Reweaving have only one nod—at least as far as the search function can tell me.
-- La Rukico Hong Kong Custom Tailors, search brings up only an unanswered request for info.
-- John's European Boutique
-- Marsan Tailors
-- Wong's Custom Tailor
-- Giliberto Designs Inc
-- Sanitate Tailors & Shirtmakers 
-- Mohans Custom Tailors
-- Mark Christopher (for shirts)
-- J And L Custom Tailors Inc 
-- Y. William Yu Inc.

From Chinatown (Manhattan Chinatown, not even couting the larger one in Queens and the growing one in Brooklyn):
-- 26 Elizabeth Tailor
-- 264 Tailor Shop
-- First Custom
-- Global Tailor	
-- Kam Sean Tailor
-- LNC Custom Tailor
-- LNK Custom Tailoring 
-- New Age Designer
-- North South Tailoring Co.
-- Ramon Tailor
-- Tai Fong Tailors
-- Tim Tailor

Granted, some of the above may only be useful for alterations, but some do make suits (or pants) as well. 

I am sure there are more out there.

Tailors we do not seem to hear abou who are members of The Custom Tailors and Designers Association of America:
-- Adrian Jules, Ltd. in Rochester
-- Bermini Custom Clothiers, who claims to be Voted Best Tailor New York NY in 2006 and 2005.
-- David Lance
-- Lawrence David
-- Saint Laurie (one review)
-- Thomas Mitchell in Huntington
-- Alan Michaels Design in Brooklyn
-- Dara Lamb, though I do not know if she does men's clothing
-- Maurizio Custom Tailor (a few mentions)
-- Stephen Kempson (some mentions about $4k MTM suits)


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Many, many of the above have been discussed extensively. Many of those discussions are sadly lost to the archive bugs. But some of the discussions have taken place on SF or LL. Dopey is right that some industrious person could cull together those comments -- except, of course, those that the locust hath eaten.

Beyond that, we would need reviews from people who have actually ordered from these operations. No one is going to spend the $ just to write a review here, I would venture. Actual customers may not know about AAAC or may know and not care. I just don't see how we can convince customers to come here and share their experience if they don't want to. Perhaps you could go around to all the tailors in question and post handbills that say "CUSTOMER! PLEASE REVIEW YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THIS TAILOR ON askandyaboutclothes.com". Otherwise, AAAC is going to be what it always has been. People will come and post if and when the spirit moves them.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

manton said:


> Many, many of the above have been discussed extensively. Many of those discussions are sadly lost to the archive bugs. But some of the discussions have taken place on SF or LL. Dopey is right that some industrious person could cull together those comments -- except, of course, those that the locust hath eaten.
> 
> Beyond that, we would need reviews from people who have actually ordered from these operations. No one is going to spend the $ just to write a review here, I would venture. Actual customers may not know about AAAC or may know and not care. I just don't see how we can convince customers to come here and share their experience if they don't want to. Perhaps you could go around to all the tailors in question and post handbills that say "CUSTOMER! PLEASE REVIEW YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THIS TAILOR ON askandyaboutclothes.com". Otherwise, AAAC is going to be what it always has been. People will come and post if and when the spirit moves them.


Hey now. Just for the record, I'm not the one who suggested a rating survey, I've only commented some ways to do it, some reasons for and against.

On the for side, I do see a bit the classic internet echo-effect going on where the same names keep coming up. Now it could be that the names that come up do so becuase the are the best. Or, it could be because member viewed as knowledgeable have mentioned them, then others have used them and commented favorably, and then still more people try to be helpful when someone asks a questions and does the best they can, which may be to simply parrot what they read from the other two-the internet echo. In my last post I was trying to point out that it's a big world and a big city, and perhaps there are untapped resources. I did a search on AAAC on many of the tailors listed above and found either nothing or little of worth mentioned. This could be due to the past archive issues, but I also see a tendancy for someone to post a question about tailor or product X and then someone pointing to the thread that mentions tailor or product X as a source of information, but when you look at the thread there is nothing of any worth there.

So, what am I saying. I am saying I see both-no all-sides of this issue. I understand it is a big task that most likely no one will do, I understand some tailors will not like the other and some may love the opportunity for more exposure, I understand some of the tailors have been covered before, but that many have not been covered or the archive is lost or what was said is useless. So is there a need, yes, is it a monster of work, yes, could it be done, actually it can, do I see the desire for such a directory being so great that it magically happened, no.

So until someone deciedes to spend the time creating the thing out of nothing, it's all just chit chat.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

There are basically three categories that would be of interest to most people: cut, fit, and construction. Cut is so subjective that I can't see a rating there being very useful. Fit is much less subjective, but consistency can be a problem. Of ten suits made by the same tailor for different people, the accuracy of the fit may vary. So how do we rank that? Perhaps consistency itself could be a ranking. I certainly believe that some NY tailors produce more consistently good results than others. Construction is the easiest, and the one where we would be most likely to achieve some wide consensus. But it is the least important of the three, so, again, what good is that really? Does it help a potentional customer to know that tailor A's sewing is neater than tailor B's? Maybe. But most of us would rather wear a flattering, well-fitting suit with a loose thread here and there than an exquisitely sewn suit that does not fit.

Again, I don't see where a ranking system gets us. We might be able to rank individual garments along these lines. But that still will not account for taste. What you or I may not like may make some other client giddy.


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## Smooth Jazz (Apr 28, 2004)

For the record, I recently met Tony Mauritzio for the first time completely by chance. He does really good work but charges a lot for it (mainly because, given his clientele, he can -- which is great for him). I will add that he is a perfect gentlemen and one of the nicest people I have met in this business. Anyone here planning to spend $6K+ for a suit?


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

FYI, Dara Lamb is a ladies clothier. She does bespoke tailoring, and she has a workshop in Long Island City. Her retail store is at Park Avenue between 56th and 57th Streets. I met her at the recent book party for Bruce Boyer, and she seems to be a good choice if you wanted to buy a blazer or tweed coat for your lady.

I prefer anecdotal reports rather than a methodical rating system in the Zagat manner. Individual reports capture the experience better than a set of numbers.

I don't think that we have the adequate number of participants for a Zagat style survey. Only people who patronized a specific tailor could vote on that tailor. How many of the fora members have actually patronized a Maurizio or a Logsdail or a Santitate? In comparison, the Zagat restaurant guides have hundreds of willing participants who have visited a wide range of establishments from Joe's Luncheonette to Le Cirque. 

Another consideration is that dirty word, PRICE. I and the vast majority of members consider price as an essential element. Therefore, even if a Sr. Botticelli received the highest rating, I wouldn't consider him based on a $5,000 price tag.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Smooth Jazz said:


> For the record, I recently met Tony Mauritzio for the first time completely by chance. He does really good work but charges a lot for it (mainly because, given his clientele, he can -- which is great for him). I will add that he is a perfect gentlemen and one of the nicest people I have met in this business. Anyone here planning to spend $6K+ for a suit?


What was the quote? 'My clients aren't millionaires, they billionaires. Millionaires can't afford me."

or something to that effect.


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

I agree with these problems, number of people who could rate the tailors, and some of the tailors' extremely high cost. One thing, and I am talking fantasy here, but if we ever DO get some kind of directory/rating system together, the price we report has to be standardized so that, for example, we report the price the tailor charges for a two-piece man's suit, CMT, so that there is absolute comparability.

And while we are talking about how difficult this is, let us note that even Manton points out that the rating of the construction of a suit is relatively objective. That is a lot right there, an objective rating of construction and the CMT cost of a suit.


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## AvariceBespoke (Jan 7, 2007)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Welcome Proton 6. Nice to see a new member with a bit of experience.
> 
> I must note, however, that most new members offer at least a bit of unattributed background information before posting a review in which some businesspersons are strongly and publicly relegated to the dustbin.
> 
> ...


Who makes your suits, sir?


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## T1Million (Feb 13, 2009)

I would like to recommend David Reeves a young independent British tailor with a great background and friendly attitude.

David's website needs updating but he can be contacted via Email [email protected]

His U.S cell is 917 783 2270

He makes both Bespoke and custom suits and shirts. He is also very active on this forum.

Here are some pictures of a made to measure suit he made for me:




























Here is a picture of David from "what are you wearing today?" perhaps wearing his "look" a little better than me.:icon_smile_big:


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## Weisser99 (Mar 13, 2008)

*CUSTOM MEN'S SHOP*

I have been getting my Custom Suits from "Custom Men" since 1996. They have tons of fabrics and Unlike other tailors in New York City, you will never feel robbed here because everything is at par with the price you pay: a $50 shirt feels like a $50 shirt and a $1000 suit feels like a $1000 suit..but the fit is just slims you down. Awesome service, reasonable prices, friendly staff. Nordstroms and Bergdorf and even Andy recommends them as well. 
www.CustomMen.com


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

Weisser99 said:


> I have been getting my Custom Suits from "Custom Men" since 1996. They have tons of fabrics and Unlike other tailors in New York City, you will never feel robbed here because everything is at par with the price you pay: a $50 shirt feels like a $50 shirt and a $1000 suit feels like a $1000 suit..but the fit is just slims you down. Awesome service, reasonable prices, friendly staff. Nordstroms and Bergdorf and even Andy recommends them as well.
> www.CustomMen.com


What's your relationship to "Custom Men"?


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

I have enjoyed reading this thread and hearing from so many of the "old timers" who are so knowledgeable.(you know who you are)


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