# Church Latin



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Just for fun, join in if you're interested.

Here are some simple ones to kick off with:

Ssmi. (Sanctissimi) = Most Blessed 

Pax Christi = The Peace of Christ
Pax Christi vobiscum = The Peace of Christ be with you

Dominus vobiscum = The Lord be with you - and when the Priest says that in Church the response is: Et cum spiritu tuo = exact translation: And with thy spirit. But with the everyday meaning: And also with you.
Pax Dominus vobiscum = The Peace of the Lord be with you

Oremus = Let us pray
Domine, exaudi orationem meam = O Lord, hear my prayer 
Gloria tibi, Domine = Glory be to Thee, O Lord.

Laus tibi, Christe = Praise be to Thee, O Christ
Per omnia saecula saeculorum = World without end
Ite, Missa est = Go, the Mass is ended - reply: Deo gratias = Thanks be to God. 


Now for the holiest words said by the priest during the consecration of the sacrament:

HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM = FOR THIS IS MY BODY

HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI = FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD 


Also note that in the Roman Catholic Church every single text, book, document, rite, type of mass, garment, sacramental item, sacrament, holy day, person, office, religious building, room etc. has a latin name! And just when you think you've mastered most of what you need to know, you discover some new ones.

Ostensorium, anyone? (no Googling)


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Et cum spiriti tuo = And with your spirit.

Just changed a few years ago from "And also with you" which had been in place since Vatican II. It's a more direct translation of the latin meaning.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Oh right, thanks, I didn't realise that. 
But exactly, as I wrote in my opening post, "and with your/thy spirit" is the correct translation. 

That said, when Father Martin here in Sweden says Mass in English (once a week), the response is still, "and also with you".


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ you're absolutely correct and I didn't catch that in your post. 

Oh well, just confirming I guess.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Oh right, thanks, I didn't realise that.
> But exactly, as I wrote in my opening post, "and with your/thy spirit" is the correct translation.
> 
> That said, when Father Martin here in Sweden says Mass in English (once a week), the response is still, "and also with you".


Interesting, the norm in the US was returned recently to "and with your spirit." I was under the impression, possibly incorrect, that this was the new English-speaking norm generally.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

I still goof up during mass. If I am not paying attention, I will say, "and also with you." Plus, adding words like "consubstantial" and "incarnate" was not exactly helpful to the people who have said the same profession of faith for many years.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> I was under the impression, possibly incorrect, that this was the new English-speaking norm generally.


It may well be, in fact now that you've both said it, I'm sure it is; but like I said to SG, I didn't realise that. 
Or maybe Father Martin and I are just too darn conservative!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Ostensorium by the way is the Latin word for monstrance.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

drlivingston said:


> I still goof up during mass. If I am not paying attention, I will say, "and also with you." Plus, adding words like "consubstantial" and "incarnate" was not exactly helpful to the people who have said the same profession of faith for many years.


Yes, no doubt it was clumsy for many for a while, and still is for a few. But exceedingly minor compared to the disorienting changes after VII. In general, the changes were designed to be consistent with the official Latin. Why they were not so designed from inception is a puzzle to me, but I gather that the intention was to not confuse people with multisyllabic words. So instead they saddled us with easier words that were deemed "probably close enough."


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I don't know about the USA but 2 years ago in Sweden, we got new Massbooks, and the wording of a few things was changed, but most obviously the Confiteor, reintroduced the triple chest beat and the appropriate wording to go with it, as a better translation of the Latin. In Sweden it had been reduced to a double beat decades ago, with that wording. Also changed was the "Lord, I am not worthy", it was updated into modern Swedish, which at the same time made it reflect the Latin more correctly.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I don't know about the USA but 2 years ago in Sweden, we got new Massbooks, and the wording of a few things was changed, but most obviously the Confiteor, reintroduced the triple chest beat and the appropriate wording to go with it, as a better translation of the Latin. In Sweden it had been reduced to a double beat decades ago, with that wording. Also changed was the "Lord, I am not worthy", it was updated into modern Swedish, which at the same time made it reflect the Latin more correctly.


About a half dozen changes were made to the Mass in the USA more or less contemporaneous with the changes in Sweden, all for the purpose of achieving more perfect translations of the official Latin. Drlivingston is correct that many Catholics undertandably still stumble over the changes having become used to the predecessor verbiage, however inferior. The changes were controversial, with more liberal bishops generally opposing on the ground that the words were too formal for most Catholics and therefore insufficiently accessable. Although it is true that "consubstantial is hardly a common word, the phrase "one in being" was probably equally cryptic to most Catholics, unfortunately.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

I do not do the chest beat during the "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault" part of the Confiteor. I do bow during that certain part of the profession of faith. Non-Catholics who visit our parish must think that we go through some sort of religious calisthenics. I have noticed at my in-laws parish about an hour from ours the re-emergence of women wearing head scarves as a sign of modesty. Fully 10% of the women that attend there don the head coverings during mass.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Yes, I've noticed the headscarves making a reappearance as well, I think it's wonderful. One young Swedish woman (who converted 2 years ago) in our Parish wears the black silk lace mantilla to every mass. I am her daughter's godfather.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ There are times when it's more convenient for us to attend Mass at Holy Name Cathedral so the crowd is a bit more eclectic. We sometimes will see a Filipino family there. The mother and daughter will a similar mantilla. They all receive communion the pre Vatican II style. There is a certain solemnity to it vs. the way the rest of us do.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Why is this thread in a vulgar tongue? Come on, guys!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

tocqueville said:


> Why is this thread in a vulgar tongue? Come on, guys!


Indeed.

Omnia scribere Latin!


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

*"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam."

*The only Latin I remember. Not sure how it would play during Mass though.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I think I'd consider becoming Catholic if I knew Julie Fuchs would be singing in Latin at my church:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

tocqueville said:


> Why is this thread in a vulgar tongue? Come on, guys!


Latine loqui coactus sum.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> Latine loqui coactus sum.


Parentes mea locutus ad me hibernices 

Sé do bheatha a Mhuire, (Hail Mary)
atá lán de ghrásta; 
tá an Tiarna leat,
is beannaithe thú idir mná
agus is beannaithe toradh do bhroinne, Íosa. (Iesu = Jesus)

A Naomh Mhuire, a mhathair Dé, (Holy Mary, Mother of God)
guigh orainn na peacaigh, (peacaigh = peccatoribus = sinners)
anois agus ar uair ár mbáis. 
Amen.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Parentes mea locutus ad me hibernices
> 
> Sé do bheatha a Mhuire, (Hail Mary)
> atá lán de ghrásta;
> ...


During the 30 years war, it was sometimes difficult to tell which of the principalities a given soldier was fighting for (lack of uniforms, etc.). The Catholics would make a habit of sometimes asking a captured soldier to recite the Hail Mary and if he was unable to, he was likely killed.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

tocqueville said:


> I think I'd consider becoming Catholic if I knew Julie Fuchs would be singing in Latin at my church:


So if there were more hot chicks at mass you'd consider converting?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Parentes mea locutus ad me hibernices


Si multum tibi dixerunt parentes Hibernicis.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> So if there were more hot chicks at mass you'd consider converting?


No, just Julie Fuchs.

I jest, of course. But seriously, the Church has an extraordinary musical heritage. I find the Mozart Mass in C, for example, deeply moving, even thought the specifics of the theology are utterly alien. I suspect I might like "Et incarnatus est," for example, a lot less (even with Mlle Fuchs singing) if it were in English, thus revealing the theology, but even then, I doubt I would be able to resist being moved. Such music, especially when performed in an appropriate setting, overwhelms the senses.

Judaism, in contrast, consciously scorns aesthetics, largely as a result of a very old fight with Hellenism. Thus there's no musical or artistic tradition worth mentioning beyond the simplest of hymns, which can be powerful, but nothing on the order of high art music like Mozart's.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Yes, the music in the Church is often fantastic. But be advised, many Catholic priests (my own included) frown upon people who attend Mass just for the music! 

Panis Angelicus is a stone cold fav. The very old version by the Irish tenor Count John McCormack (Papal Count) gets me every time.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Yes, the music in the Church is often fantastic. But be advised, many Catholic priests (my own included) frown upon people who attend Mass just for the music!
> 
> Panis Angelicus is a stone cold fav. The very old version by the Irish tenor Count John McCormack (Papal Count) gets me every time.


Gorgeous stuff. I think I need to become more familiar with Franck's music. I did not know that there were Papal Counts.

Here's another one of my absolute favorites, the Benedictus from Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. The Mezzo-Soprano, Elisabeth Kulman, shares space with Julie Fuchs on the official Tocqueville's Crush List. I long to see this music performed live, although I know I will probably sob throughout. Mine is a romantic soul.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

tocqueville said:


> I did not know that there were Papal Counts.


Oh yes, sometimes called a Roman Count or a Count of the Holy See. The Vatican is a State and the pope is the Head of State (until recently the Pope was considered a monarch in fact until 1963, when the Pope's Triple Crown was done away with) and as such the Pope has the right to grant titles of nobility.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> The Vatican is a State and the pope is the Head of State (until recently the Pope was considered a monarch in fact until 1963, when the Pope's Triple Crown was done away with) and as such the Pope has the right to grant titles of nobility.


Which of course explains your name, sir.


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