# Sartoriani



## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

https://www.sartoriani.com/about.php

I've seen frequent adverts in the FT for this new "bespoke" (transparently MTM) outfit on Old Bond St. over the past few months. They're offering suits from £600 as an "introductory offer" vs. a claimed standard rate of £1,000. Manufacturing is in Germany or Italy. From the pictures, styling looks quite soft, at least compared to the very structured English suits I'm used to.

Does anyone have any experience with these guys? I've booked an appointment to see them next week, and will report back with my impressions. Given the low price, high rent location (they're on the first floor, but Bond St. can't be cheap at any altitude), and extremely expensive ad campaign, I'm sceptical but trying to be open-minded.


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

*Not empirical, but*

That name is crap, sounds like a new line from Woolworths.
You will get a better feel when you visit, I believe there are a few of these sort of operations around, there was one in north London that claimed, 'French craftsmen cut the cloth using the most modern lasers'

For that kind of money (£600 or £1000) there are lots of options, just out of interest, do you have problems buying of the peg/rack ?
Is a 'measured' suit, essential ?

Also be aware that the introductory offer may not apply to all their range and when you are on their premises, the 'consultants' will sell 'up'.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

I share the scepticism of the other posters. A friend phoned the firm to inquire about the bespoke offer. The salesman was evasive when asked about construction. It's probably MTM in a factory at those prices.


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

Franko said:


> For that kind of money (£600 or £1000) there are lots of options, just out of interest, do you have problems buying of the peg/rack ? Is a 'measured' suit, essential ?
> 
> Also be aware that the introductory offer may not apply to all their range and when you are on their premises, the 'consultants' will sell 'up'.


Thanks. I've bought only MTM for a couple of years, and am quite happy with the travelling tailor I've gone to the past few times, and whose prices are in a similar range. At the same time, I'm always curious to see what else is out there. Their prices will naturally range higher for better fabrics, extra trousers, etc.



Bishop of Briggs said:


> A friend phoned the firm to inquire about the bespoke offer. The salesman was evasive when asked about construction. It's probably MTM in a factory at those prices.


It's clearly factory-made MTM (I'm not sure there's any other kind, much as some tailors would like to persuade us that Wensum is really just a slightly larger workshop populated by thimble-wielding artisans), but at £600 could still be a good deal if it's well-made.

I'll report back next week.


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## joe1 (Feb 10, 2008)

Do you have any news about your suit? I'm thinking of buying one, but I'd like to hear from someone who's tried them first.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

I think I used to listen to him and to Steve Vai in high school.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

joe1 said:


> Do you have any news about your suit? I'm thinking of buying one, but I'd like to hear from someone who's tried them first.


Welcome to the forum, Joe.


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## cdcro (Jan 23, 2008)

RJman said:


> I think I used to listen to him and to Steve Vai in high school.


It's not every day you can drop a Satch reference in a clothing forum. I guess i'll bide my time until my Stu Hamm ref..:icon_smile_big:


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## joe1 (Feb 10, 2008)

Thanks. By the way.. I'm a bit of a novice in these matters. If im prepared to spend about £500 on a suit, do you think this would be the best bet. I'm often not so happy with the cut of RTW and I just thought this would be a good opportunity, but I cna imagine that forking out an extra £100 or so and buying a basic canali might be a better idea.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

joe1 said:


> Thanks. By the way.. I'm a bit of a novice in these matters. If im prepared to spend about £500 on a suit, do you think this would be the best bet. I'm often not so happy with the cut of RTW and I just thought this would be a good opportunity, but I cna imagine that forking out an extra £100 or so and buying a basic canali might be a better idea.


You would be better going to a cheaper bespoke tailor than buying Canali. Try Antoniou - https://www.allinlondon.co.uk/directory/1197/26381.php - who has had favourable comments on this forum.


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## joe1 (Feb 10, 2008)

Thanks.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

YYZ-LHR said:


> It's clearly factory-made MTM (I'm not sure there's any other kind, much as some tailors would like to persuade us that Wensum is really just a slightly larger workshop populated by thimble-wielding artisans), but at £600 could still be a good deal if it's well-made.
> 
> I'll report back next week.


What worries me about that company more than anything else is that the picture on their quality page shows a two-button suit that not only carries a lapel width that is circa 1992 but also the bottom button is DONE UP! 

The photographer may not have known about that but it should've been noticed somewhere along the line by the 'tailors' who work there.
I'm also wary of companies who offer very little text on their site and very small photos. It's as if they're trying to hide something.

As for the Wensum comment, it is basically a large workroom containing some (but not all) thimble wielding artisans. Some of the staff in the workroom are very highly trained and more than capable of making a fully canvassed suit. Samples are currently being made so I'm told.


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## Skinty (May 21, 2008)

*Post deleted as part of a legal settlement between the poster and Sartoriani -- Andy, June 19, 2008
*


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Bonhamesque said:


> What worries me about that company more than anything else is that the picture on their quality page shows a two-button suit that not only carries a lapel width that is circa 1992 but also the bottom button is DONE UP!
> 
> The photographer may not have known about that but it should've been noticed somewhere along the line by the 'tailors' who work there.
> I'm also wary of companies who offer very little text on their site and very small photos. It's as if they're trying to hide something.
> ...


There are very few "thimble wearing artisans" in the Wensum factory*. It is a machine made product with minimal (if any) hand stitching. I would not expect them to know how to make a full canvas product. Certainly not a traditional one without a fused front. Still a nice suit though.

*W_B*

*the factory Wensum outsource to.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

whistle_blower71 said:


> There are very few "thimble wearing artisans" in the Wensum factory*. It is a machine made product with minimal (if any) hand stitching. I would not expect them to know how to make a full canvas product. Certainly not a traditional one without a fused front. Still a nice suit though.
> 
> *W_B*
> 
> *the factory Wensum outsource to.


Trust me they are capable of making a fully canvassed garment and as I said they have sampled it already.
It's on the back burner at the moment as their priorities are elsewhere but they've made a couple of fully canvassed samples and they've assured me that at some stage it will go into production.
I'll let you know when it happens.

I'm told that some of the new staff that they've acquired into their workroom are more highly qualified than previously and have more skills than needed to make their usual suit.
They have also just recruited a major player from a rival (fully canvassed) tailoring company and he is keen to progress with f.c. garments.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

As Franko said, the name Sartoriani is a big red flag. I mean really... As Bonhamesque mentioned, their adverts in the FT never fail to provide amusement. Also, the fact that they claim to offer bespoke at those prices should be yet another red flag that honesty is not one of their core values, which of course speaks volumes...

The developments contemplated at Wensum sounds very interesting. I look forward to updates, Bonhamesque.

BTW, Franko, where are you???


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

misterdonuts said:


> As Franko said, the name Sartoriani is a big red flag.


I'm always suspicious of names that sound too suited to the product to be true.
Ever since the whole Haagen Das and Thomas Pink business was revealed I've been sceptical of any new brand names that sound contrived.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

There are very few brands or stores that offer a quality product and value for money. Even big names such as Gieves & Hawkes, Ralph Lauren and Kilgour peddle over-priced far Eastern rubbish at obscene prices. Jermyn Street, with a few exceptions, a shadow of its former self. The West side of Savile Row, with exception of Davies & Son, is full of spivs selling over-priced tat.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Bonhamesque said:


> I'm always suspicious of names that sound too suited to the product to be true.
> Ever since the whole Haagen Das and Thomas Pink business was revealed I've been sceptical of any new brand names that sound contrived.


So true :icon_smile_big: Haagen Daz gave the impression that it might be some Scandinavian outfit whereas it was a couple of guys in Maryland... That said, why I didn't think it strange that Scandinavians would be good at ice cream rather than something steaming hot is yet another story altogether:icon_smile_big:

Pink, in its original incarnation, was a popular outerwear maker who probably never made shirts. For 3 Irish brothers to pick up a defunct trade mark and build a successful business is impressive, even if their products aren't.

But, Sartoriani... I hate to dwell on it, but it sounds like a private label collection at Asda or something. It's not just contrived but pitifully comical and irredeemably naff. "Outfitters to the Teletubbies" or other...


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

misterdonuts said:


> So true :icon_smile_big: Haagen Daz gave the impression that it might be some Scandinavian outfit whereas it was a couple of guys in Maryland... That said, why I didn't think it strange that Scandinavians would be good at ice cream rather than something steaming hot is yet another story altogether:icon_smile_big:
> 
> *Pink, in its original incarnation, was a popular outerwear maker who probably never made shirts*. For 3 Irish brothers to pick up a defunct trade mark and build a successful business is impressive, even if their products aren't.
> 
> But, Sartoriani... I hate to dwell on it, but it sounds like a private label collection at Asda or something. It's not just contrived but pitifully comical and irredeemably naff. "Outfitters to the Teletubbies" or other...


There is no evidence that a Thomas Pink or Pinkk or Penk EVER made shirts, coats or riding wear. The whole story was part of the Thomas Pink myth used to sell shirts in the 1980s! Great marketing by the Mullens brothers.

*W_B*


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

whistle_blower71 said:


> There is no evidence that a Thomas Pink or Pinkk or Penk EVER made shirts, coats or riding wear. The whole story was part of the Thomas Pink myth used to sell shirts in the 1980s! Great marketing by the Mullens brothers.
> 
> *W_B*


Then I standed corrected!!:icon_smile:


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## Zaremba (Jun 2, 2008)

*Back on the Sartoriani thing....*

I've just bought a suit from Sartoriani, and actually it was pretty damn good, in fact I've just ordered 2 more.

They are completely honest about what it is they do. They make a suit for you - which is why they call it bespoke. But they never say that it is handstitched on the premises unlike some (Savile Row) tailors that I have be dupped by in the past!!

Personally, from the service I have had so far, I would be very happy to recommend them.


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## flash harry (May 17, 2008)

Zaremba, what exactly is your job title at Sartoriani?


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

flash harry said:


> Zaremba, what exactly is your job title at Sartoriani?


I have to agree. After all this Sartoriani stuff erupts, a new personality posts without the usual "I'm a newbie" post and comes to the defense of the firm in question.

I saw this happen on another blog site where a venrated retail firm was bought out and de-horned by another. The succeeding firm had terrible stock and service. After these blogs against the takeover appeared, all of a sudden there were entries that read about the new poster's recent mega purchases and the wonderful service that went with it.

If indeed the new poster is honest, my apologies, but.....


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## Zaremba (Jun 2, 2008)

HA HA HA! Actually I'm in the army so do have a little bit of experience with tailors even if I don't work for one.

I just wanted to give my opinion on a service that I received. It is just my point of view. Take it or leave it.

But I think I better go back and read the site etiquette so no other accusations can be waged against me!


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

Zaremba,
As I said at the end of my post...Please accept our apologies.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Zaremba said:


> They are completely honest about what it is they do. They make a suit for you - which is why they call it bespoke.


Erm.... what?

The fact that they're making a suit for you doesn't make it bespoke old chap.

Call me cynical but I find it highly suspicious that the manager of Sartoriani has said that she has read this site and finds the comments unfair and then a couple of days later someone new signs up and starts defending them.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Zaremba said:


> HA HA HA! Actually I'm in the army so do have a little bit of experience with tailors even if I don't work for one.
> 
> I just wanted to give my opinion on a service that I received. It is just my point of view. Take it or leave it.
> 
> But I think I better go back and read the site etiquette so no other accusations can be waged against me!


Get lost you pathetic troll!


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## flash harry (May 17, 2008)

Why would anyone buy a product be completely happy with it then go around the internet googling it to see other peoples comments on said 
product/company, you do your research before not after. 

Your post says more about the quality of staff that Satoriani must 
be employing than any criticism any genuine poster could ever give.


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## Zaremba (Jun 2, 2008)

I am not up for being a member of a site that only allows me to express a negative opinion. I have enough war at work, without trying to create conflict in my free time. 

I think you are being very narrow minded. You have probably never been to that outfit and yet only want to hear bad thing about it.

Why on earth wouldn't I google a company, any company, whether I had bought from them or not. Please don't tell me what I can and cannot do on the internet.

I joined this site becuase I saw what I thought was a discussion on a company that I had tried and wanted to offer my opinion, I also thought that the site might be interesting and fun. I was wrong.

Consider this goodbye.


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## flash harry (May 17, 2008)

"I have enough war at work" 

I'm sure you do dealing with all the dissatisfied customers. 

It seems you were as successful as posing as genuine poster as you are
at measuring people for a suit. 

BTW, I hope the poor girl whose husband to be had such a bad experience 
with you got his suit sorted in the end.


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## leica (May 13, 2008)

I am new to this forum but something about Zeremba's statements puzzle me. He claims to have purchased a bespoke suit from Santoriani and was planning to purchase two more. In addition he stated he was in the army. Please excuse me but how does a soldier afford three suits with prices beginning at £600. Traditionally the salary of a military man or woman is not sufficent to afford a "bespoke" suit with a price tag beginning at £600. let alone three "bespoke" suits.


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

leica said:


> I am new to this forum but something about Zeremba's statements puzzle me. He claims to have purchased a bespoke suit from Santoriani and was planning to purchase two more. In addition he stated he was in the army. Please excuse me but how does a soldier afford three suits with prices beginning at £600. Traditionally the salary of a military man or woman is not sufficent to afford a "bespoke" suit with a price tag beginning at £600. let alone three "bespoke" suits.


The Sartoriani model (as seen in their most recent FT adverts last weekend) is a junior officer in the British army, which is presumably why this person assumed that persona.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Zaremba said:


> I am not up for being a member of a site that only allows me to express a negative opinion. I have enough war at work, without trying to create conflict in my free time.
> 
> I think you are being very narrow minded. You have probably never been to that outfit and yet only want to hear bad thing about it.
> 
> ...


Good riddance. I have a lot of experience in business and sartorial matters. It is easy to spot commercial troll plugging a product and "Zaremba" fitted the profile exactly.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

This thread comes up as second on a Google search on "Sartoriani". So for all of those who find this thread on Google, here is some more salacious reading before you give your money away to these guys:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=82881
https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=83730


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Sator said:


> This thread comes up as second on a Google search on "Sartoriani". So for all of those who find this thread on Google, here is some more salatious reading before you give your money away to these guys:
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=82881
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=83730


Good! :icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

In fairness to Sartoriani, it would be good if another forum regular could pay them a visit and make an informed assessment of the place -- while my impression was very poor, I can't claim to be expert.

Alternatively, I volunteer myself as a guinea pig willing to post commentary and photos if others on the forum will volunteer the cash!


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## hockeyman (Jun 14, 2008)

*hockeyman*

An interesting piece on Page 2 of the London Evening Standard today re Sartoriani.
The ASA have ruled that Savile Row have lost the battle and Sartoriani have every right to use the term Bespoke when selling a MTM suit.
This proves that the world has gone mad and it`s `devil take the hindmost`. Honesty has gone out of the window and it`s a `free for all`.
I was tempted by the adverts placed by this company but something in the back of my brain told me that something was not quite kosher.
After reading the problems that the young lady from Henley had with this company I am thankful that I followed my instincts.


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## CPVS (Jul 17, 2005)

hockeyman said:


> An interesting piece on Page 2 of the London Evening Standard today re Sartoriani.
> The ASA have ruled that Savile Row have lost the battle and Sartoriani have every right to use the term Bespoke when selling a MTM suit.
> This proves that the world has gone mad and it`s `devil take the hindmost`. Honesty has gone out of the window and it`s a `free for all`.
> I was tempted by the adverts placed by this company but something in the back of my brain told me that something was not quite kosher.
> After reading the problems that the young lady from Henley had with this company I am thankful that I followed my instincts.


Just who is the ASA anyway, and how much did Fartoriani (sorry, Sartoriani for the Google bots) pay to get this "verdict"? :devil:


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

CPVS said:


> Just who is the ASA anyway, and how much did Fartoriani (sorry, Sartoriani for the Google bots) pay to get this "verdict"? :devil:


See...That's the whole new young sound problem. Instead of being good at what they do they get a ruling to bend the language around their inability to produce competently. I'm seeing more and more of this type of crap.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

YYZ-LHR said:


> In fairness to Sartoriani, it would be good if another forum regular could pay them a visit and make an informed assessment of the place -- while my impression was very poor, I can't claim to be expert.
> 
> Alternatively, I volunteer myself as a guinea pig willing to post commentary and photos if others on the forum will volunteer the cash!


I'll go you one better: if the forum will volunteer the cash, I will actually boark an airplane and fly across the Atlantic, putting life and limb at great peril, and check it out.


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## Karsten (Jul 7, 2008)

Hi,

I'm from Germany (I apology for my bad English in advance) and read an ad from Sartoriani on board of my airplane to London. 

I have bought made-to-measure suits in Germany before, and the price seemed quite fair to me in comparison with the used clothes and the quality I saw on the suits in the showroom, so I ordered a suit ...

The tailor was italian and seemed quite knowledgeable about the correct fitting, the atmosphere was relaxed and productive. I think I was quite a challenge for a made-to-measure suit, because I have a kyphosis combined with a lordosis, but the result I was able to see six weeks later exceeded my expections. The suit is currently adjusted a little bit, and I'm waiting for the final delivery via UPS. Since I was quite convinced of my first suit, I ordered two more suits on my second visit.

Things I didn't like:
- The staff is "overselling" a bit too much in my opinion, I would have liked a little bit more "credible" atmosphere (due to my restricted knowledge of the nuances of the English language I'm afraid I'm not ably to express myself correctly here)
- The administrative staff seems very busy, I had to wait about two weeks for my order confirmation
- My spam filter identifies all e-mails from Sartoriani as spam


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

Karsten said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm from Germany (I apology for my bad English in advance) and read an ad from Sartoriani on board of my airplane to London.
> 
> ...


Welcome. I'm curious. How did you find Ask Andy's and how did you come to this thread so promptly? I think you do well with your English.


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## Karsten (Jul 7, 2008)

Mitchell said:


> Welcome. I'm curious. How did you find Ask Andy's and how did you come to this thread so promptly? I think you do well with your English.


I found this thread when I was looking for the Sartoriani phone number using Google and was attracted by the short summary Google presented ...


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## WhichSuit (Jul 15, 2008)

Hi all,

I am new here and registered after I found the site through Google search for Sartoriani. I want to give you my first impression of the outfit.

I saw the advert in the Telegraph and decided to make an appointment as suggested. I was initially given one, only for it to be cancelled 20 mins later due to a double booking. I was promised a call-back later that day to arrange another appointment. This was not forthcoming and I eventually decided to call them instead. Having secured the appointment a friend and I visited the premises.

Two things had attracted us to the premises. First, the prices were extremely reasonable for Super 150 and 180 cloth. Second, the fact that the tailoring address given was for Savile Row. We presumed, incorrectly it emerged later, that the main shop was located elsewhere due purely down to costs.

The premises were clean and we were shown a variety of cloth. Having selected two after much debate we waited to see the tailor for the measurements to be taken. In the meantime we selected the lining, styles, buttons etc. The measurements were then taken by a chap from Italy. It was only at this stage that we came to know the suits were being machined in Germany. We decided to proceed irrespective of that fact and assured by the quality of suits on display.

The turnaround time has been quoted as 8-10 weeks and as such I'll come back here to give you an update of how the suits look and feel plus the quality of the stitching and fit. Payment was made with a credit card in order to protect us should anything go wrong.


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

WhichSuit said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am new here and registered after I found the site through Google search for Sartoriani. I want to give you my first impression of the outfit.


Yawn.

Could an admin please check the IP addresses of the parade of one-time posters lauding Sartoriani and its customer service? If they aren't all from the same computer, I'll eat my super 150 hat.

Edit: If you google Sartoriani, you'll find a long thread on "Yahoo answers", again first-time posters falling over themselves to rave about their experience with the company. I'm curious to know who runs their advertising campagin: this is shockingly down-market stuff.


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## The Sartorial Executive (Apr 19, 2008)

Does anyone know what cloths they use at sartoriani? Their website suggest from 'the most prestigious weavers in the world'.

Also, what are their shirts like?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

WhichSuit said:


> the prices were extremely reasonable for Super 150 and 180 cloth.


This sounds very dubious. Even at cost, S150s and 180s might cost about 100-150 GBP per metre to a bulk buyer such as Sartoriani assuming they get a good deal. For a two piece lounge suit you will need 3.5m ie 350-525 GBP for the cloth alone. Locally, here in Sydney, the full retail price to tailors can easily be more like 250-375 GBP per metre (incl. duty, shipping, up-charge of middle men) of double width for quality S150-180s cloth.

Anything that costs less than this may be fake Chinese stuff. In the Far East there are plenty of fake cloths with dogdy "Scabal" etc selvedges claiming to be super this-that-and-the-other.


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## WhichSuit (Jul 15, 2008)

YYZ-LHR said:


> Could an admin please check the IP addresses of the parade of one-time posters lauding Sartoriani and its customer service? If they aren't all from the same computer, *I'll eat my super 150 hat*.


I hope you are prepared to do so. *This *is my second and only post to this forum. I only Googled their name after the order was placed because I was curious as to how they were doing such low prices. I had been to Savile Row that day and was quoted approx 14-18 weeks for a bespoke and prices around £4,200. MTM was considerable cheaper.

Why is it that anyone posting anything resembling a neutral POV is being challenged by you? I don't know them, haven't bought before from them and won't be able to make a judgement on the quality or service until I have the suits from them. Have you ordered from them and have personal experience? If you do, I would like to hear about it in order that I can make a decision whether to abort now. If not, your post only encourages one not to post here any further.

I would post a copy of the invoice but don't know how to do it on the forum. It only allows me to select a url location and not my PC.


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## WhichSuit (Jul 15, 2008)

Sator said:


> Anything that costs less than this may be fake Chinese stuff.


The total costs for the two suits was £1,100, inc. VAT both on Super 150's. The proof of the pudding will be only once I can see the finished article. My concerns are - 1) Will they in fact use the very fabric they showed us, and 2) The quality of the finish, the fine details and whether they accurately design the suit as per the order. I'll have to wait to find out when they arrive.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

WhichSuit said:


> The total costs for the two suits was £1,100, inc. VAT both on Super 150's.


ie £550 for a two piece lounge suit of S150s wool. A half decent S150 should cost about £350 for the cloth alone (assuming Sartoriani are getting a keen deal by buying in bulk, as small bespoke tailoring firms will easily pay nearly twice as much for a quality S150s) leaving £200 for the cost of manufacture of the coat and trousers but precious little room for a profit margin.

The only way to make a profit would be if the coat were mass produced by automated machines which cut and fuse it (glue it together in other words). Typical practice might involve £100 for cost of production, and £100 in total profit for Sartoriani. At £10/hr for total production costs/labour, that is 10 hours work for both coat and trousers.

Compare that to a Savile Row bespoke coat which might involve 60 hours of work. And that is just for the coat alone!


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

WhichSuit said:


> I hope you are prepared to do so. *This *is my second and only post to this forum. I only Googled their name after the order was placed because I was curious as to how they were doing such low prices. I had been to Savile Row that day and was quoted approx 14-18 weeks for a bespoke and prices around £4,200. MTM was considerable cheaper.
> 
> Why is it that anyone posting anything resembling a neutral POV is being challenged by you? I don't know them, haven't bought before from them and won't be able to make a judgement on the quality or service until I have the suits from them. Have you ordered from them and have personal experience? If you do, I would like to hear about it in order that I can make a decision whether to abort now. If not, your post only encourages one not to post here any further.
> 
> I would post a copy of the invoice but don't know how to do it on the forum. It only allows me to select a url location and not my PC.


Indeed.

I have no personal animosity toward Sartoriani: as I posted earlier in this thread, I saw their ad, visited their shop, thought better of it, and moved on. But I've been around this forum for a year or two now, and can't think of a single time when a new poster has popped up to rave about the maker of his new purchase EXCEPT for the three people that have done so on this maker. Either Sartoriani attracts uniquely loyal first-time buyers who are also particularly enthusiastic internet users, or there's something else going on.


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

Sator said:


> Anything that costs less than this may be fake Chinese stuff. In the Far East there are plenty of fake cloths with dogdy "Scabal" etc selvedges claiming to be super this-that-and-the-other.


They had a good range of credible-looking Holland & Sherry books, plus a number of bolts of fabric.


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## WhichSuit (Jul 15, 2008)

YYZ-LHR said:


> But I've been around this forum for a year or two now, and can't think of a single time when a new poster has popped up to rave about the maker of his new purchase EXCEPT for the three people that have done so on this maker.


I can't see how my post could be considered anything but neutral. Certainly not raving about them, that will have to wait until I see the finished article. They might turn around a great suit, or they might try and see me off with something I wouldn't put on a homeless person. Time will tell.


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## WhichSuit (Jul 15, 2008)

Sator said:


> Compare that to a Savile Row bespoke coat which might involve 60 hours of work. And that is just for the coat alone!


There is no comparison. One costs upward of £4000 and the other is a £550 piece of clothing. One is bespoke, the other is tailor-made (maybe no tailors involved at all).

A friend of mine used to come to the UK to buy his suit materials and then get them tailor-made in HK. That used to work out at around £700 per suit (inc labour). Every suit he ever had made turned out absolutely amazing, but the tailor in HK is incredibly knowledgeable (and cheap comparatively to the UK). That took somewhere in the region of around 60-80 hours of stitching and 3-4 fittings.


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## flash harry (May 17, 2008)

Maybe neutral but I would question anyone who would still consider buying 
from them. 

Have you not read the thread from the lady who's future husband was having his wedding suit made by them? Hideous experience, not only in 
the poor fitting, that included numerous attempts but also the genuine 
lack of customer service and any consideration towards the couple. 

Then some moron from the company decided to come on here and pose 
as an actual customer, they were quite quickly shown up for exactly 
what they are. 

With so much choice why even bother with them. To ad insult to injury 
they have also help dilute the actual true meaning of the word bespoke.


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## WhichSuit (Jul 15, 2008)

I only read about the lady and her problems after I had placed the order so it couldn't have been a deterrent. Like I said, I only searched for this particular retailer after I had been to the premises to read other's experiences. Fact is, every retailer will have problems from time to time so one episode isn't too bad. The (fact?) that one of them posted here passing himself/herself as a customer would be damning if true.

However, I have to wait until I get the suits delivered and only then will I be able to make my final assessment. And perhaps I'll be able to describe my thoughts that would either help or discourage others. Fingers crossed on my end though, I don't need to see £1,100 wasted.

There are some 8 weeks to go before the suits are ready so I might not be around till then but I promise to update the thread when I'm in a position to do so.

As to the meaning of 'Bespoke' I don't have the same worries as you. I knew that for £550 I would not be buying a bespoke suit. But it might be better than a OTR one for similar money. Again, I will have to wait and see if my assumptions are valid.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I am speaking as a member of the trade and *NOT* as a moderator.

It has been asked "what is the ASA?" The ASA is the Advertising Standards Authority of Great Britian.

What follows is their pragmatically incorrect adjudication of a complaint agains Sartoriani. It is incorrect not only because the Savile Row Bespoke fellows have defined bespoke properly and been ignored, but also because the meaning of a word must recognize it's historic usage and the context in which lies its present usage. No tailor of repute will claim a made-to-measure suit to be bespoke. Among the congnoscenti of suits, the differences in meaning may be discussed insofar as their finer points but the basics are simply the basics. Bespoke is cut from an individually made pattern. Period.

Thousands of posts on this site, on Style Forum, and on the London Lounge have been devoted to arguing the exact definition of "bespoke". Combined, there are no authorities in today's world greater than the aforementioned. And none - repeat none - has arrived at the consensus or even the hint that a made-to-measure suit could be termed bespoke.

I thus conclude that the unknowlegeable folks at the ASA took a pragmatic and easy decision by dismissing the consumer's complaint.

Herewith the ASA decision in its entirety:

* ASA Adjudications *

*Sartoriani London* 1st Floor 24 Old Bond Street London W1S 4AL

*Number of complaints: *1 *Date:* 18 June 2008 *Media:* National press, Regional press *Sector:* Clothing

 *Ad*  
A local and national press ad, for a tailor, stated "LIMITED INTRODUCTORY OFFER To celebrate the opening of our showroom in Old Bond Street. 1 Bespoke Suit Uniquely made according to your personal measurements & specification from our extensive range of finest Italian Super 120s quality fabrics £495 (Regular price £995).
 
 *Issue*  
The complainant objected that the claim "Bespoke suit" was misleading because bespoke suits were made entirely by hand. He believed the advertised suits were machine-cut abroad to a standard pattern after initial measurements were taken and adjusted at the end of the process.

 *The CAP Code*: ; 
 *Response*  
Sartoriani said, although it was true that their suits were not made entirely by hand, and were machine-cut abroad, that did not mean the use of the term "bespoke" would mislead consumers. They pointed out that there were multiple definitions of "bespoke" and listed some of them. The Oxford English Dictionary definition was "made to order", a men's style guide defined it as "from 'to bespeak' i.e. to order or command. Generally speaking, this means 'made-to-measure' as distinct from 'ready-to-wear' clothes." Sartoriani also quoted a definition from another tailor, which stated "To buy a bespoke suit is to buy a suit that has been cut from a piece of cloth to measurements that we have calculated by analysing your body shape. We are not customising a pre-made suit (sometimes known as made to measure) ... the cut, style, colour, number of buttons etc are all chosen by you. The suit is therefore made to your exact specifications, and is completely unique to you." They provided further quotes, from a tailor "All made to measure products are bespoke, made especially for you" and from Ralph Lauren "A term referring to a custom made article of clothing". They listed other tailoring businesses that used "bespoke" in their advertising.

Sartoriani argued that their suits were made to order at the customer's demand, to their measurements and specification, rather than merely altering an off-the-peg suit, and that they therefore met the definition of "bespoke". They maintained that the ad did not mislead by ambiguity because all modern dictionaries defined the term as "made to order" and only old-fashioned Savile Row tailors could possibly interpret it in any other way. They said in their view the specific meaning that certain Savile Row tailors attributed to "bespoke" was not the same as the public understanding of the term. They added that they were very honest about the service they offered and would never imply, in response to an enquiry made to them, that they made their suits entirely by hand in the UK. They asserted that their target customers would see "bespoke" and "made to measure" as synonymous, meaning "made for you". They maintained that no one who purchased a bespoke suit for £495 would reasonably be confused in to thinking that they were buying a suit made to the same world famous standards as one costing up to or more than ten times that much.

Sartoriani listed the processes involved in the purchase of a bespoke suit at their shop. They said at the first appointment the customer would be given an explanation of the process, if they had not already enquired over the phone. If they then wished to proceed they would choose from a range of fabrics and a book of styles. The customer would then meet with the Master Tailor who would take approximately 20 measurements and give guidance about the material and fit, if needed. Payment would be taken and an order confirmation signed once all decisions and measurements were taken. A length of cloth would then be cut and sent to their manufacturer in Germany along with the customer's measurements and specifications to be made up into a suit. The measurements and any individual requirements, such as style, buttons, sewing thread, tags, linings and any other items the customer may have specified, would be entered into the manufacturers production computer. The fabric pattern created for the suit and the lining would be put into a "working-frame" where it would be cut and sewn by machine. In some cases it would be necessary to cut an individual pattern because either the customer's body shape or their requirements did not match the basic pattern. Once final adjustments had been made the suit would be sent to the UK and the customer would try it on and take it home if satisfied. If alterations were needed, they would be carried out by tailors in the showroom and another fitting appointment arranged, and the process would be repeated if necessary. Sartoriani said, even if a customer had taken their suit home, having signed to say they were happy with it, they could still come back for further alterations if they wished.

Sartoriani said in order to avoid any possible future confusion they would not use "bespoke" in isolation in ads that referred to their premises in Savile Row.
 
 *Assessment*  
Not upheld
The ASA noted the complainant's point that the advertised suits should be described, at best, as 'made-to-measure'. We also noted the industry traditionally made a distinction between made-to-measure and bespoke. A made-to-measure suit would be cut, usually by machine, from an existing pattern, and adjusted according to the customer's measurements. A bespoke suit would be fully hand-made and the pattern cut from scratch, with an intermediary baste stage which involved a first fitting so that adjustments could be made to a half-made suit.

We noted Sartoriani's argument that they made their suits to order at the customer's request, rather than altering an off-the-peg garment. We also noted they provided definitions of "bespoke" that referred to clothes being made to order or custom made. We understood that there had recently been changes in the industry: some tailors and high-end fashion designers described their made-to-measure suits as bespoke. We also understood that traditional Savile Row tailors had reacted by trade marking the term "Savile Row bespoke" and had set out a strict code of practice for its use, that stipulated, for example, that suits should be made entirely by hand.

We considered that both fully bespoke and made-to-measure suits were "made to order" in that they were made to the customer's precise measurements and specifications, unlike off-the-peg suits. We considered that customers would expect a bespoke suit to be tailored to their measurements and specifications. We considered that the majority of people, however, would not expect that suit to be fully hand-made with the pattern cut from scratch. We concluded that the use of the word "bespoke" to describe the advertised suits was unlikely to mislead.

We investigated the ad under CAP Code clauses 3.1 (Substantiation) and 7.1 (Truthfulness) but did not find it in breach.
 
 *Action*  
No action was required.
 
Adjudication of the ASA Council (Non-broadcast)

back |

Advertising Standards Authority,
Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn, London, WC1V 6QT, United Kingdom


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## LVP (Jun 28, 2008)

RJman said:


> I think I used to listen to him and to Steve Vai in high school.


Surfing With the Alien! :aportnoy:



flash harry said:


> Zaremba, what exactly is your job title at Sartoriani?


:icon_smile_big:


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## TinTin69 (Aug 19, 2008)

Hi All,

I just wanted to share my recent experience with Sartoriani. Firstly I want to point out that I bought 3 suits and only afterwards searched for this forum, so I do have some sympathy for the previous poster who was accused of being associated with the company. However, I'm not. I have rarely felt so compelled to provide feedback on an internet forum after a purchase and found this thread on Google.

I first heard about Sartoriani during their PR stunt with the ASA, which, I must admit, was a stroke of genius. So I made an appointment and went there. The person who "advised" me was clearly not a tailor, but an extremely pushy saleswoman who probably worked for scientology in the past. I went in there wanting one, maybe two suits and came out having bought three. I'm not usually a pushover, but once I had left I felt like having being run over by a freight train. I pointed out that I wanted to try their service with one suit first and if I'm happy I would order more. But every time I said I had enough she kept bringing new fabrics, which were admittedly very nice. She also made it very clear that the half price "promotion" was strictly limited for a few weeks and by the time I would receive my suit, prices would have doubled to the normal level. This, of course, turned out to be a lie. So don't ask me how, but I went from one suit to 3 suits...

The guy who took measurements was extremely rude and unpleasant, but it was all done within about 10 minutes. 8 weeks later I did indeed get a call, as promised, and went for my "first fitting". I use quotation marks as it turned out that the company policy is clearly that your first fitting is also your last one. Although I was not feeling 100% comfortable with the movement in the shoulder area and despite limited movement the back wasn't totally smooth, the guy kept insisting that everything was perfect. He pointed out that it was pretty obvious that I have never had a "bespoke" suit before and basically don't have a clue of what it should feel and look like. He suggested that once I had worn them a few times, they would "adjust to my body". Writing this actually makes me laugh, but at the time I was in a state of disbelief and shock which didn't allow me to react. 

Having tried on my 3 suits within 15 minutes, he pointed out that there were a lot of customers waiting outside and I should hurry up. There was another little incident, which I don't want to describe here as it would make it too easy for them to identify me, but let's say it was a complete shambles. So overall not a very pleasant experience. 

However, the reason I haven't kicked up a fuss was that I still somehow feel that the value-for-money aspect is satisfactory. I got 3 suits with a very nice Super 130 wool, which fit (even though not perfectly) much better than any off-the-rack suit I've ever had. And all that for a price, which is about half or two thirds of that (I normally buy Canali or Zegna). The quality seems good, but let's see what the suits look like in a few months time. The whole "bespoke" thing is clearly a joke, but I never expected to get the product and service of a Kilgour for a fraction of the price. As with most things in life, you get what you pay for.

So if you ask me whether I'd do it again, I can't give you a clear answer. I will come back here and tell you what the quality of the suits is like after having worn them for a while.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Clearly, they are a used car dealership.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

TinTin69 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I just wanted to share my recent experience with Sartoriani. Firstly I want to point out that I bought 3 suits and only afterwards searched for this forum, so I do have some sympathy for the previous poster who was accused of being associated with the company. However, I'm not. I have rarely felt so compelled to provide feedback on an internet forum after a purchase and found this thread on Google.
> 
> ...


With such an unpleasant experience, why would you go back even if it be at such prices? One of the key things is one's satisfaction and if you aren't fully satisfied with your experience then there's something obviously not right. Personally, I would not return to a place that treated me like cattle.


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

Is there any chance you could post photos of the suit? Despite plenty of reviews, complimentary and otherwise, I still haven't seen a photo of a real person wearing one of their suits.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

I don't see this the same way Charlie because emotionally I refuse to give money to people have been so disgustingly rude to me.
You've paid what I assume is over £1,000 to be treated like a cow pat - that's criminal.
I simply cannot believe the things that the staff said to you and I would recommend showing your suits to an independent tailor as I'm sure that the concerns you raised were quite valid and in fact the suits don't fit well at all, or even better post pictures on here and get a multitude of opinions.

At least then you can decide whether you'd return there again.


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## TinTin69 (Aug 19, 2008)

Ok, will try to get my girlfriend to take some pictures


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## Skinty (May 21, 2008)

Hi
I would say I'm sorry to ressurect this thread, but I'm not :icon_smile_big: mainly because I've had a PM from someone taking Sartoriani to court and I thought I'd better pop back after you were all so helpful just before my wedding.

Our situation was that I got a refund from Sartoriani for the botched wedding suit, and they agreed to make us a new suit, hubby was happy with that so as it was his suit I let it happen (if it had been me financial compensation would have been chased).

We didn't go and get measured for this new suit until it was convenient for us which was a few weeks ago, so the new one isn;t ready yet, but when it is I promise I will post on the experience AND pictures!

I know you all want pictures of a Sartoriani suit (and I wish I'd taken some of the wedding suit shambles now) so I'll cut hubby's head off (not literally, even if he does drive me mad sometimes) and post you some.

Tell you what - this suit had better fit!

Interestingly, the setup when we went more recently was much more sleek and sorted, and they did actually have the tailor there to take measurements.

They did say they would use the old ones but I insisted on new ones and hubby says they were different by some margin!

Perhaps if they have changed the way they work to ensure the tailor actually measures you then it will be OK. Although I do agree that they are not bespoke suits, but MTM.

My wedding dress was MTM and I had three fittings, a toile fitting and was able to be involved in the design, and if that isn;t bespoke then Sartoriani definitely isn;t!

Anyway, as I said they do seem to have sorted a few issues out and I live in hope of hubby getting a nice new suit which might make up for the nightmare before the wedding.


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## adhoc (Oct 5, 2008)

Good luck! Keep us updated. :icon_smile:


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## wokman (Dec 13, 2008)

*update from a recent visit to Sartoriani*

I am trying to build a new wardrobe of good suits. This Ask Andy site has been very educational and enlightening for me. As I cant spend too much, i succumbed to the Sartoriani sale in the FT and paid them a visit. Here is my experience.

The booking was very simple, one phone call and it was set up. I reached there, expecting to get some legendary Saville Row treatment in the form of some gentleman-ly care. However, was greeted by 2 Eastern European/Brazilian eye candy with their top button undone and short skirt. They could hardly speak decent English and most of the irony was lost on them. She showed me various fabrics, but you could see that she was reading from a script which was directed towards picking up a 130s. All the time, she tried to upsell a second suit and a cashmere jacket.

After about 30 minutes of this, I finally met the guy who did the measurements. Again not much words exchanged between us. He asked me try various pre made jackets. Once we found that fit, he took a few measurements and then it was over to finding a trouser. He asked me change into one of the trousers hanging on the rack.. right there. There is no changing room, and the windows dont have blinds. There is an office in the building next door, and they can see all the proceedings - a bit of SOHO in Saville Row!!!. We went thru the drill, and then he scans his paperwork off to Germany where they will cut the cloth. The 'fitting' ordeal takes about 15 mins.

Once I was back with with my Brazilian eye candy, she talks about the other details; If you need a non-matching inner linning: £50; working button holes on the arm: £50; extra trouser: £250; non-plastic buttons extra... we go thru another 15 minutes of this circus. Of course, all the money is to be paid upfront and the suit is delivered in 10-12 weeks

I asked to see samples of their cuts, and I was told to look at the mannequins in the room. While I was waiting, there were a steady stream of visitors. I spoke to 2 of them. One of them was getting a second suit done and was very happy with his experience. Interestingly, the second guy had been trying to get his suit from Satoriani for the past 12-16 weeks and it was his 3rd visit to the place. Seemingly they had been giving him different reasons and dates for when it will arrive.

Overall my experience has been mixed so far. I have handed them the money without any guarantees. If the suit works well then I will say that the experience was worth it... else..

Watch this space for a Feb update.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

adhoc said:


> Good luck! Keep us updated. :icon_smile:


 Earlier in this thread there was discussion of "made up" names which lack heritage and were marketing ploys. Seeing Ad Hocs avatar reminded me that many might consider Brioni to be in this group also, although I think most would agree they make fine clothing. For more information on how the Brioni name came to be, see page 110 of Roetzel's book. Other names which once meant something quite different than what they mean today include Abercrombie and Fitch, Kuppenheimer,and Palm Beach.:icon_smile:


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## hghevans (May 20, 2008)

+1 for pretty much everything wokman wrote!
Ha, interesting to hear about the guy hearing excuses about the suit; when I went there was a customer (wonder if it was the same man) whose suit they had lost; when I was being "measured" (same poor changing conditions as previously described), one of the short-skirted ladies came in and started whining down the 'phone, trying to locate the man's suit... Was not impressed... Still, fingers crossed that it will turn out OK... Have had only one experience with a discount tailor before, Raja, and that turned out very well in the end. Have about six weeks to wait before I can find out if my adventure with Sartoriani was similarly successful.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

wokman said:


> .
> Overall my experience has been mixed so far. *I have handed them the money without any guarantees.* If the suit works well then I will say that the experience was worth it... else..




I have thought about booking an appointment with this place, but I know it would be a waste of time as I have no intention of placing an order. Even if I did have the possible intention of getting something, I would be so offended, I would leave.

I am not sure if people are aware they have a number of websites, all with different url's.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

wokman said:


> Once I was back with with my Brazilian eye candy, she talks about the other details; If you need a non-matching inner linning: £50; working button holes on the arm: £50; extra trouser: £250; non-plastic buttons extra... we go thru another 15 minutes of this circus. Of course, all the money is to be paid upfront and the suit is delivered in 10-12 weeks.


No fitting room?!
£50 for a coloured lining!! They're free at most tailors. £50 for working cuff!!? Usually £20 or free.
All the money up front?? What a cheek! 50% deposit is standard.
And all of this with a 10 to 12 week delivery time!! Incredible!
Savile Row standard time for MTM is about 6-8 weeks! 10 - 12 is more like bespoke.

I must say that anyone here who parts with their money at Sartoriani (especially all of it up front!) after reading this thread is very very brave.
I know they have a sale on but still. 
I look forward to reading the outcome.


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## hghevans (May 20, 2008)

*Yeah, that's the thing, they are on sale...*

Yeah, forgot to mention that the foreign lady on the phone was making her (rather shocking for the customer to hear, I think) phone call while I was getting changed in the same room! I mean, not that I particularly cared, but, I don;t know, for some people that sort of lack of privacy would be probably rather humiliating! Certainly not the way a valued customer should be treated. The "tailor" was quite jovial and friendly, as were the ladies front of shop, but that doesn't really make up for it...
I must say, I only went there because the offer of a £500 mtm suit sounded good, and it was for a xmas present, so I thought why not go for one on offer. Still hope that it might turn out alright. 
Oh, and another thing, they didn;t mention at the time that the lining costs extra, they only told me when it came to paying that that was not included in the sale!


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Bonhamesque said:


> £50 for a coloured lining!! They're free at most tailors. £50 for working cuff!!? Usually £20 or free.
> And all of this with a 10 to 12 week delivery time!! Incredible!
> Savile Row standard time for MTM is about 6-8 weeks! 10 - 12 is more like bespoke.





hghevans said:


> offer of a £500 mtm suit sounded good
> Oh, and another thing, they didn;t mention at the time that the lining costs extra,


For £500 plus the extra's, they do not workout seem cheap at at all £600-700 for a MTM suit that takes 10-12 weeks.

A Steed MTM suit starts from £775 and one from Gieves & Hawkes (Wensum) from £795, the latter for less in a sale sometimes even from £595. Half-canvassed from Chester Barrie or anyone who uses CB should be the same as Wensum for G&H, again cheaper in a sale.

If you cannot wait that long RTW Chester Barrie, Wensum and Hackett are good quality and retail from about £500, again cheaper in a sale. If your budget is a less, Debenhams have some decent offers - once saw £400 casper Conran suit marked down to less then £100 on Boxing Day.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

I agree with Toryboy, and there are other tailors using Wensum in the same price bracket too.

£500 seems like a very attractive price but in retail, if something seems too good be true then it usually is.
I've said it before on this forum many times but the phrase 'you get what you pay for' is truer in tailoring than in any other product I can think of.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Bonhamesque said:


> I've said it before on this forum many times but the phrase 'you get what you pay for' is truer in tailoring than in any other product I can think of.


Which is why Savile Row bespoke is never on sale.

The same goes for most, if not all, true bespoke suits.


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## celery (Jan 9, 2009)

*Another (as yet unresolved) Sartoriani saga*

Hello everyone,

I would like to share my experience with Sartoriani which is still ongoing!

I saw their promotional offer in an in-flight magazine and, realizing that this was extraordinary cheap for what I understand "bespoke" to mean, decided to look into it. Sure enough it's MTM...and I found articles online that talked about the controversy.

However, I needed some new suits and to be honest was probably going to have MTM anyway (as I'm not well heeled enough for a truly bespoke suit).

I thought I would try them out, even knowing some of the history, to see for myself what they are like and I promised myself that I would sign up here and post the results. Well, here it is...

Order placed July 16th, 2008 for 2 suits. Efficient, if somewhat cold, service. Was told 8-10 weeks for delivery. They charged my card on this date.

Received "order confirmation" letter August 14th, where the T&C's state that the order is only considered accepted once an "order confirmation" has been issued...and the letter states an 8-10 week delivery time.

Called October 7th to chase up, was promised a call back. They didn't.

Called October 15th to chase up, was told the suits are expected "any day now" and was promised a call back. They didn't call me back.

Called November 10th to chase up again as I was due to be out of the country for most of the rest of the year. One suit is in the store, no idea about the other one - will check and call back. Again - they never called me back.

Called January 5th, spoke to "Olivia" who promised me a call back. It never happened.

Called January 8th, spoke to Olivia again I believe...who couldn't remember promising me a call back from the 5th. Told me that 1 suit was in (I know) but cannot find any trace of the other and she feared it may not have even been made (i.e. lost in the system). She promised to investigate with "production in Germany" and call back. No call back was received.

Called January 12th, was told they are still waiting a call back from "production" (!!) and will refund 2nd suit cost if it's not already in production. Was promised a call back...sigh.

Tried to call today, January 20th, on their listed number 0207 495 3556. I get a continuous "number out of service" tone. I wonder if this is temporary or permanent? 

By now, you're probably wondering why I didn't kick up a stink earlier. I wanted to see just how long it would take (morbid fascination) and how poor the service could get (pretty bad, as you can see).

I fear that I will probably have to pursue them through the small claims court to get my money back.

Bottom line: avoid like the plague (assuming they're even still in business)!


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## adhoc (Oct 5, 2008)

All the best, that behvaiour by Sartoriani truly is reprehensible.


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## celery (Jan 9, 2009)

Thank you 

Quick update - I managed to get through to them by phone (whatever the fault was, it was obviously transient).

They're still waiting to hear back about my 2nd suit, although the lady I spoke to said they are expecting to get an "issues list" of problems and delayed orders through shortly and she promised to call me back some time today with an update.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Wow celery, that is incredibly poor customer service. I've never known anything like it and I worked for Comet as a teenager!
I'm glad you waited this long before reporting as the list of offences is far longer and far more impressive!
I cannot believe that we are over SIX months down the line and you still haven't had a fitting!
You could've had 4 consecutive suits made with another tailor in that time.

I'd be really interested to hear Sartoriani's response if you wrote to them with this list of dreadful behaviour.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Bonhamesque said:


> W
> I cannot believe that we are over SIX months down the line and you still haven't had a fitting!


I could live in New York and get a bespoke suit made from a tailor on Savile Row in that time.


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## celery (Jan 9, 2009)

Unsurprisingly, the promised call back never came. Unfortunately I'm tied up in meetings today but it seems that I have no alternative but to start writing letters and initiating legal action. What a pain in the backside!


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## celery (Jan 9, 2009)

Update for the record...

Called the showroom again. Was told that their “production” folks in Germany claim there is a a problem in production that needed rectifying hence the delay and was offered compensation in the form of complimentary trousers or a shirt.


I replied that the first suit arrived at their showroom on November 10th, according to my phone records, and that I doubted the plausibility of the explanation from their production folks as it shouldn't take months to resolve an unspecified problem with the second suit (unless the problem is that they forgot about it, of course).


Further, I requested that I take the suit that is available but that the outstanding suit is cancelled and that the corresponding £700 is refunded. Was told this may not be possible as the second suit was in production. I pointed out my rights under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and that if they could not comply, I would follow the legal advice I have been given and pursue a full £1400 refund plus costs through the small claims court.


Was promised a call back after a management consultation


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

It's the way of the modern world.

Certain firms are interested only in making the sale. Once seduced the customer is left to fight it out through red tape, non returned return phone calls, applying to a higher authority ad nausium.

I've gone through this with a highly praised reputable clothier.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

What amazes me is that this outfit continues to attract new customers.


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

Orsini said:


> What amazes me is that this outfit continues to attract new customers.


Of course they continue to attract new customers. They know how to do the dance, and say all the right things in the right way.

They can't do the job but that's not what counts anymore.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Orsini said:


> What amazes me is that this outfit continues to attract new customers.


Once they get you and take your money (100%) who cares.

I doubt if the suits are even made-to-measure, more made-to-order and then altered; hence, the £50 charge for different lining. They would have to reset the machine because of the change of lining.

This would explain why one customer can get their suit in 8 weeks and another 3 months. They need enough orders from the same fabric to maximise profits and or it is pot-luck with the fabric you choose, if they are making plain black and your choice was grey pinstripe, unlucky!

Another hint is that they try to sell the super 130's. The more suits they sell in the same fabric would be cheaper then 10 suits in 10 different fabric options. Which is not the case with MTM by Chester Barrie or Wensum.

I also reckon they get the button cuffs done in England. Why else charge £50.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Celery I can only imagine how many people must be threatening litigation with Sartoriani at this point.
Unbelievable, truly disgusting behaviour!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Mitchell said:


> Of course they continue to attract new customers. They know how to do the dance, and say all the right things in the right way.
> 
> They can't do the job but that's not what counts anymore.


You would think the word would get around...


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

Orsini said:


> You would think the word would get around...


Yes. One would think that. But there's enough clowns out there that think this is the way of luxury goods, so they don't know any different. Then there are those that do get the word around and they're known as "whiners." They're told, "What do expect now-a-days," or "You're really picky," or "You're living in the past. There's a new definition of service."


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Orsini said:


> You would think the word would get around...


.



Mitchell said:


> Yes. One would think that. But there's enough clowns out there that think this is the way of luxury goods, so they don't know any different. Then there are those that do get the word around and they're known as "whiners." They're told, "What do expect now-a-days," or "You're really picky," or "You're living in the past. There's a new definition of service."


Especially now with the credit crunch, people trying to save money wherever possible.


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## celery (Jan 9, 2009)

Well I did get my first ever call back last night, which was really just to let me know I'd get a call back tomorrow (i.e. today) and that they'd see what they can do to resolve the matter satisfactorily.

To Orsini's point about word getting around, I did google them before placing the order and I found a lot of articles about the MTM vs bespoke controversy and this thread (the latter being one reason why I have kept such detailed notes). If you google them today, you'll find that aside from a blog entry or two, that's about the same info available today.

You're right, however, that word really ought to get around! They've let slip a couple of times on the phone calls that they have a list of order issues (i.e. upset customers) 20+ items long to deal with - and that's just at present from the person I spoke to.

It's not easy to find reviews and feedback on companies like this, which is why I resolved to sign up here and record my situation...after all, this is the most prominent thread on Sartoriani I found while googling (third hit on the first page)!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

celery said:


> ...To Orsini's point about word getting around, I did google them before placing the order and I found a lot of articles about the MTM vs bespoke controversy and this thread (the latter being one reason why I have kept such detailed notes). If you google them today, you'll find that aside from a blog entry or two, that's about the same info available today...


There was a thread a while back about someone's experience with this vendor. I seem to recall that as part of the settlement it was quashed.

The thing about it is that their business model, while certainly *not* really bespoke, *can* work well and provide a good MTM garment. They just seem to be determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with inept manufacturing and bad customer service. Good legal department, though...


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## hghevans (May 20, 2008)

*Tomorrow...*

...I shall be in London for the second fitting, the suit having apparently arrived from Germany. Am rather apprehensive after the experience listed above.
Wish me luck, will report back on how it goes!


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

hghevans said:


> Have about six weeks to wait before I can find out if my adventure with Sartoriani was similarly successful.


You posted that on 6th January.
That's a very long six weeks!


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## hghevans (May 20, 2008)

*Today...*

Heh, yep, was a little longer than they said it'd be... Not too fussed though, couldn't have gone in much earlier as term only finished recently, have only been down for two days, would've had to postpone it anyway had they been on time.
Anyway, yeah, went along, had a bit of a wait as there was a bit of a queue (seems that despite the dreadful treatment the guy above recieved from these guys, they are still in business), then went in to see the tailor and my new suit. This time, the tailor left the room and closed the door when I was getting changed, which was nice. The second pleasant surprise was that the suit was actually very nice! Yeah, was rather pleased with it! Not perfect though, one of the shoulders was a little bit off, so I asked the tailor about it, he agreed and did not try to bs me into taking it away, but pinned it up ready for alteration. I am going abck in another two weeks (which seems excessive; whenever I have had things altered at Ede and Ravenscroft in Oxford, or my local place in Kent, it has never taken more than one week, and they don't have an alteration tailor in all the time, while Sartoriani presumably do. Not too fussed though, as I said, was pleased). They did remember to put 5 cuff buttons on (working), as I had asked them to (I know that that is controversial on these fora, but I just like the look). Oh, actually, I did ask for horn buttons in the first consultation thing, and the suit has come with plastic ones... Again, I am not too fussed, shall just buy some horn ones and put them on. In fact, I think that I have a set lying around somewhere... Anyway, yeah, all in all was pretty pleased. Pleasantly surprised, as I said.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Thanks for keeping us up to speed hghevans.
Would love to see photos of the final product when it's finished.


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## Caim (Apr 1, 2009)

*Another unhappy customer*

I ordered a suit from Sartoriani earlier this week, although the extremely poor service I received from them whilst there almost put me off doing so and, reading through the reviews on this site, I am now starting to worry about whether I will ever receive the final product and what it will look like.

Just to expand upon my concerns about their customer service, it took 1 1/2 hours approximately for them to take me through the various fabrics and for their tailor to take my measurements, mainly because they kept me waiting for most of that time.

Indeed at one point their tailor said would I mind having my measurements taken whilst other clients were in the same room as they were very busy that day - I said no I would rather wait until they finish, which proved to be a wise decision given that they still have no dressing room and so I had to change in the same room as the tailor and another chap who was doing something on a computer.

Another point is that they encouraged me to pick though the book of coloured linings and then only after I had picked one did they tell me that this was £50 extra. Moreover they also tried to pressure me into having several suits made, although I refused on the grounds that I wanted to see the first one before ordering any more. They also, as other reviewers have discovered, seem only interested in showing me Super 130 fabrics.

All in all, not a good experience.


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## hghevans (May 20, 2008)

*Late again...*

Hmm, this time they have put the third (and hopefully final) fitting off by another week, and I had to call them for the privilege of finding this out as well...


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

I think the "Sartoriani" attitude is the way of the new world of retailing. "Tell 'em anything to get them in the door, and then do anything you want to 'em once you've got their dough."

I'm sorry to hear the never ending saga of these dopes, and I understand your frustration.


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## hghevans (May 20, 2008)

*Update - again, not bad*

Have finally recieved suit! 

If I'm honest, I am actually quite pleased with it, though I prefer higher armholes and the shoulders are perhaps a bit boxy; I may take it into Ede and Ravenscroft to see if the good people there can make them a little more rounded. Have put some horn buttons onto it, much better than the cheapy plastic discs the suit came equipped with. Hmm, also, I think that the rise in the trousers may be a shorter than I asked for, though this is of little concern as I am a young, hip, slim sort of chap and can pull this off, esp as the trousers are pleated. Aside from that, am quietly pleased. Will probably take some photos and put them up (as soon as I work out how!) in the near future.

Thinking about it now, I do not think that I would suggest others use their services, not beacuse I am sniffy about mtm pretending to be bespoke (though I did at one point get a little irritated with one of the shop girls who insisted that the products her company peddles were "bespoke", a word she could barely pronounce). I just think that one is better going for an overseas tailor such as Raja over Sartoriani, as the quality is miles better, the prices are much better, and they take a lot less time to cough up the product. That said, they too can be brusque to the point of rudeness and, unlike Sartoriani, do not fill their showroom (they do not even have a UK showroom!) with Eastern European eye candy (one of these ladies was incapable of spelling "E-V-A-N-S", even when I spelled it out. She thought I'd said "Adams". Twice.) 

All in all a sort of half-hearted thumbs-up.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Thanks for the update hgh, I look forward to seeing the photos.

It's strange to hear you say that you're pleased with a suit that you're having to take to another tailor to alter!
You're also changing the buttons and questioning the rise. Oh yeah, and it took four MONTHS to make it. 

I think it might've been better to go with someone like E&R in the first place.


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## Benmarsh1984 (Nov 13, 2009)

*Help with Sartoriani*

Hi guys, i am new to this forum and have discovered it a few months too late as reading some of the threads about Sartoriani they say to stay well clear. Anyway, i didn't and am now in the situation where five months down the line i have a suit jacket that fits me except the lapels are too big for the jacket as they measured me so incorrectly to begin with the jacket has had to be taken in so much that obviously the lapels are now too big. Anyway, i am not happy with the product and want a refund, however, they keep on telling me it is their policy not to give refunds, does anyone know where i stand with Trading Standards or the Office of Fair Trading and am i entitled to a refund?

Any help you guys can give me will be so much appreciated, i just want this whole saga to be over so i can get a suit from someone who knows what they are doing! :icon_pale:


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## Benmarsh1984 (Nov 13, 2009)

*Update*

Following my earlier posts, my issue with Sartoriani seems to have been resolved and, I have to say, they have been helpful in making sure that I leave their business as satisfied as possible. 

After I rejected the suit, they offered me other options as a gesture of goodwill to make sure that the matter has been resolved to both parties' likings which is the main thing. One of the offers was full compensation of the suit, which I have taken.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Resurrecting this because I've just seen an ad for Sartoriani in today's NY Times.

The ad's positioned amidst all the luxury ads on page 2, stating "introductory offer bespoke suit". They're offering "one bespoke suit made of finest English Super 150s & cashmere cloth tailored to your measurements and specification in England" for $995, against a "regular purchase price" of $1990.


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## Qato (Feb 21, 2010)

I am just posting here to say thank you for this thread! I am looking for a London tailor and was impressed by Sartoriani's slick presentation, however after doing a little research, mainly on this forum, I am now looking elsewhere!

If anyone has any recommendations of a good bespoke London tailor, please see my other thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1061594


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## Twobuttondoublevent (Mar 1, 2010)

*Close call*

Likewise, a big thank you to this thread and all who sail on her.

I had been taken in by the offer in Esquire (2 suits, 2 shirts all for £895) and was about to make an appointment after doing a quick check on Google.

Will research a bit more for alternatives, the 8-10 week is OTT. In the meantime I went into M&S to keep me going and picked up 2 RTW suits for €550, one is nearly as good as my first Canali, nice cut. 2nd is very acceptable for work.

Not easy to find 42S chest (with a short "drop" I think), 36 waist, 29 leg.

So thanks again.

BTW any tips on finding Canali in UK at good prices?


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## JSJ (Jun 23, 2010)

*meaning of Made to Measure*

Yes, I got seduced by the "bespoke" term, but let me ignore that and ask about a bigger issue... What does Made To Measure mean? After my shopping visit and the taking of all my measurements I came back for my first fitting, only to discover that the waistband was more than 3 inches too big! I am a suit newbie, but I was shocked at that. The jacket sleeves were off by a half inch and other details needed adjustments, but the pants were SO far off that I am worried they just grabbed something off a rack to get started. What should I expect when told the suit is MTM? Is 3" in the realm of common experience?

Worried and dismayed.


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## cufflink44 (Oct 31, 2005)

A Sartoriani ad appeared in today's _Los Angeles Times_:

"Limited Introductory Offer. To celebrate the opening of our showroom on 212 N. Rodeo Drive Beverly Hills we are offering one bespoke suit made of finest English Super 150 & Cashmere cloth tailored to your measurements and specification in England. $995 (regular purchase price $1990). Please call [details] to schedule your private consultation in our Beverly Hills showroom."

I used the search facility to see if AA had anything on them and wasn't disappointed. Having read this thread, I think I'll stay away.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

I don't know if this has been mentioned already in another thread but Sartoriani have officially gone bust.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned already in another thread but Sartoriani have officially gone bust.


More "amusement": https://www.qype.co.uk/place/237544-Sartoriani-Bespoke-Suits-London


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

The most insightful post in that link was this:



> As most already know, they're going out of business
> 
> The suits were made in China.
> 
> ...


It sounds like the poster was an employee. Note the confession about writing fake/shill reviews. I am sure some of the positive "reviews" found here were of this variety too. Also interesting is the fact that their stuff was made in China. The truth is coming out.

I hope this serves as a good lesson to anyone else out there who is thinking of passing off stainless steel as platinum - irrespective of whether some sort of dodgy advertisement body thought it was OK, consumers clearly don't like to be lied to.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

JSJ said:


> Yes, I got seduced by the "bespoke" term, but let me ignore that and ask about a bigger issue... What does Made To Measure mean? After my shopping visit and the taking of all my measurements I came back for my first fitting, only to discover that the waistband was more than 3 inches too big! I am a suit newbie, but I was shocked at that. The jacket sleeves were off by a half inch and other details needed adjustments, but the pants were SO far off that I am worried they just grabbed something off a rack to get started. What should I expect when told the suit is MTM? Is 3" in the realm of common experience?
> 
> Worried and dismayed.


BTW the term Made-to-Measure traditionally means bespoke. Only a bespoke garment is truly made to your measurements. That is why in Europe the term for a bespoke garment means made-to-measure eg sur mesure, su misura, nach Mass etc.

I prefer the term made-to-order for a factory made garment with alterations pre-built into it. That is essentially what a MTO garment is - instead of altering after the garment is complete, you alter it before it is finished. If you can call this made-to-measure then you can call a RTW garment that too because it is made to measures eg size 38", 40" chest etc. If you wear a size 38 coat, and it fits you could argue that it has been made to your measures and proportions for a 38" chest and therefore "made-to-measure".


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Sator said:


> I hope this serves as a good lesson to anyone else out there who is thinking of passing off stainless steel as platinum - irrespective of whether some sort of dodgy advertisement body thought it was OK, consumers clearly don't like to be lied to.


My only regret in the case of Sartoriani is that they won the court case over the use of the word 'bespoke'.
Had they been made an example of in court, perhaps other charlatans would've been forced to change the wording on all their advertising.

I still believe that Savile Row bespoke suits should be given the 'Champagne' treatment so that legally no-one is allowed to label it as SR bespoke unless it's the real thing.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Sator said:


> Also interesting is the fact that their stuff was made in China.


Normally I have absolutely nothing against made in China products. In fact some of my best friends are 'Made in China'. But passing off stuff as Savile Row bespoke suits, well that's just wrong.


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## andreyb (Dec 24, 2003)

It would be almost funny if not for all those people who were cheated. 

Andrey


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

The world is a better place now.


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