# blackwatch season?



## salgy (May 1, 2009)

as the holidays are fast approaching, i had a question in regards to the pair of blackwatch tartan pants i scored on the exchange... a quick search revealed that black or burgundy shoes would work the best, but what i can't find is when are they appropriate to wear? are these acceptable anytime in the month of december? just for holiday parties? just for reference, i would be wearing them to work... jacket & tie dress code... but a little "fun" is encouraged (madras in the summer for example...)


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't see why they're not appropriate anytime this month.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

*lackwatch Tartans can certainly be worn during the holidays, but are also acceptable for wear throughout the winter months. Be bold and enjoy wearing your's as you feel the urge!*


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

It depends on the weight of the cloth. I've seen tartan trousers worn with a navy blazer worn in the spring and summer, too. 

If I was wearing tartan trousers at Christmastime, I'd wear them with a dinner jacket and velvet loafers for a snazzy look.

By the way, I'm looking for a pair of Black Watch tartan trousers with a 30, 31 or 32 waist.


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## ATL (Nov 29, 2011)

I need to get to the tailor STAT. I have a jacket I bought off ebay that's just a leetle too long.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

You wear those any time you have the cajones to do it.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Titus_A said:


> You wear those any time you have the cajones to do it.


so, the winter answer to madras?!?


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

https://shop.nordstrom.com/s/gant-r...B15F7C-F825-E211-9A4A-90E2BA0278A8&origin=pla

Change the buttons and it could be a nice dinner jacket.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

And here's a linen one: https://compare.ebay.com/like/150952236225?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Except for the fact that it's horribly too short, I agree. I don't even mind he gold button though I suspect black would be better.


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## straw sandals (Apr 14, 2010)

I wear mine to the club, but not to work. I think they're not GTH like madras, but still "fun". Perfect for any occasion that you might be sipping egg nog. Or caroling. Never spreadsheets.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

I know I have read somewhere, perhaps on a formalwear thread, that blackwatch is an acceptable alternative to a black jacket when black tie is required? I have a full blackwatch suit just back from the tailors, but it does have the brass buttons and so is likely appropriate for festive but not overly formal situations this Christmas. I am very much looking forward to wearing it.


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## straw sandals (Apr 14, 2010)

An entire suit? That's a lot of blackwatch! I sincerely hope that you'll post photos.

Blackwatch alternatives to black tie are covered here:

https://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic/Classic_Alternatives.htm

I think that this black tie guide is very well written and thorough.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Barnavelt said:


> I know I have read somewhere, perhaps on a formalwear thread, that blackwatch is an acceptable alternative to a black jacket when black tie is required? I have a full blackwatch suit just back from the tailors, but it does have the brass buttons and so is likely appropriate for festive but not overly formal situations this Christmas. I am very much looking forward to wearing it.


Blackwatch tartan is only acceptable instead of a dinner jacket if you're a member, or were a member, of the Blackwatch. Unless you're dressing as a clown, or in fancy dress, or wish to look foolish......
Why do you all imagine that tartan is somehow a form of dress for December?


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Chouan said:


> Blackwatch tartan is only acceptable instead of a dinner jacket if you're a member, or were a member, of the Blackwatch. Unless you're dressing as a clown, or in fancy dress, or wish to look foolish......
> Why do you all imagine that tartan is somehow a form of dress for December?


That's not true. Black Watch tartan was created as the Government Tartan, in the first half of 18th century. It was a generic tartan pattern worn by countless highland regiments and not just what is today The Black Watch, the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland.

Essentially, the Black Watch tartan is in the public domain for use by those without a family tartan.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Chouan said:


> Blackwatch tartan is only acceptable instead of a dinner jacket if you're a member, or were a member, of the Blackwatch. Unless you're dressing as a clown, or in fancy dress, or wish to look foolish......
> Why do you all imagine that tartan is somehow a form of dress for December?





hockeyinsider said:


> That's not true. Black Watch tartan was created as the Government Tartan, in the first half of 18th century. It was a generic tartan pattern worn by countless highland regiments and not just what is today The Black Watch, the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland.
> 
> Essentially, the Black Watch tartan is in the public domain for use by those without a family tartan.


And, more to the point, nobody in the US follows British rules about who gets to wear what tartan or stripe.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Orgetorix said:


> And, more to the point, nobody in the US follows British rules about who gets to wear what tartan or stripe.


Point. Outside of veterans of Her Majesty's forces, there are probably more regimental tie wearers in the United States than in the U.K.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Orgetorix said:


> And, more to the point, nobody in the US follows British rules about who gets to wear what tartan or stripe.


Chouan is I think speaking purely from a British perspective, and even there I'm not sure he is correct in saying that only the military may wear Black Watch. I have never seen a tartan dinner jacket but no doubt such a thing exists.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
A "Blackwatch Dinner Jacket?" Up until a bit more than a year ago, I owned one...purchased on clearance from the honorable Jos A. Banks for the paltry sum, as I recall, of $39. Wore the thing for several years at our holiday parties and eventually passed it on to the Goodwill Store! LOL. Had a whole lot of fun wearing that jacket!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Langham said:


> Chouan is I think speaking purely from a British perspective, and even there I'm not sure he is correct in saying that only the military may wear Black Watch. I have never seen a tartan dinner jacket but no doubt such a thing exists.


More from a taste perspective! It isn't a rule, and I doubt that even members of the Blackwatch would wear one. It's just that I can't see why people would want to wear a tartan dinner jacket per se, or why December is a time when it is thought appropriate so to do. Why would, I assume otherwise reasonable and respectable, people want to wear a tartan jacket?


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Chouan said:


> More from a taste perspective! It isn't a rule, and I doubt that even members of the Blackwatch would wear one. It's just that I can't see why people would want to wear a tartan dinner jacket per se, or why December is a time when it is thought appropriate so to do. Why would, I assume otherwise reasonable and respectable, people want to wear a tartan jacket?


I see your point - I wouldn't wear one personally, but obviously there is latitude for tastes to differ, especially in different climates or if, say, one wanted to advertise one's Scottish ancestry. I wouldn't wear a velvet DJ if it comes to that, or one with a collar configuration differing from my favoured shawl, but people often do and it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Orgetorix said:


> And, more to the point, nobody in the US follows British rules about who gets to wear what tartan or stripe.


I might just be that nobody, (perhaps my first wife was right). I do not knowingly wear anything emblematic that I am not entitled to, even when no one is watching. As Santa said, "Be good for goodness sake".


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Chouan said:


> More from a taste perspective! It isn't a rule, and I doubt that even members of the Blackwatch would wear one. It's just that I can't see why people would want to wear a tartan dinner jacket per se, or why December is a time when it is thought appropriate so to do. Why would, I assume otherwise reasonable and respectable, people want to wear a tartan jacket?


It's a pretty common thing here, for some reason. Tartans, especially red or green ones, are associated with Christmas.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

straw sandals said:


> An entire suit? That's a lot of blackwatch! I sincerely hope that you'll post photos.
> 
> Blackwatch alternatives to black tie are covered here:
> 
> ...


I will gladly post a picture. I am having some trouble determining the appropriate tie however. I also have a pair of blackwatch shorts purchased at a thrift sale; just the thing to accentuate pasty white legs in May!

As for taste, I always have enjoyed plaids and tartans. My family is a sept of the McLaren clan, which has a lovely tartan, and I always have worn my tie proudly. Unfortunately I recently found out the notion of "septs" was generally cooked up in the 19th century as a way to raise money for clans that were willing to attach themselves in name only to people with no real Scots heritage; all things Scottish have been fascinating to the public at large for a very long time. I would say in general most Americans think it is classy and fun to be associated with clans and the like. The proliferation of St Andrews societies attests to that, and the requirements for proving Scots heritage are often quite loose.

Anyway, I find blackwatch clothing to be classy and fun, and as I associate it with Christmas, will be wearing it within the month of December.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

I was all set to pick up this one, but then my office group didn't win the $550 million powerball.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Just purchased today, at 40% off:



This is southwick-made and is absolutely gorgeous. Word of warning though: it's cut to be cool, IE, I had to size up two chest sizes and from an R to an L, but at that, it fits perfectly!

JB


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Barnavelt said:


> Unfortunately I recently found out the notion of "septs" was generally cooked up in the 19th century as a way to raise money for clans that were willing to attach themselves in name only to people with no real Scots heritage; all things Scottish have been fascinating to the public at large for a very long time.


If one wants to be honest, most tartans date to the Victoria and Albert, when nationalism was on the rise and there was a romanticism with Scottish culture.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

Beautiful coat, JT. 

For this year's round of Christmas parties, I'm going with Orvis blackwatch pants and a blue blazer. Still on the hunt for a non-goofy Christmas emblematic tie.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

mjo_1 said:


> Still on the hunt for a non-goofy Christmas emblematic tie.


check out what drlivingston has in the sales forum... there were a couple that caught my eye... but being a bow tie man, i passed (still debating buying them and sending them off to be made into bows...)


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

hockeyinsider said:


> If one wants to be honest, most tartans date to the Victoria and Albert, when nationalism was on the rise and there was a romanticism with Scottish culture.


Well there you go. This romanticism is alive and well today with periodic peaks, at least it seems in America, that coincide with movie releases (i.e. "Braveheart", which was of course directed by an Australian anyway). As a youth I recall a friend and myself being obsessed with the "Highlander" film, Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod, sword fighting, and attractive Highland women. Of course that film also was directed by an Australian. In fact perhaps the Australians are the ones who truly are obsessed with all things Scottish.


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

salgy said:


> ...but what i can't find is when are they appropriate to wear? are these acceptable anytime in the month of december? just for holiday parties? just for reference, i would be wearing them to work... jacket & tie dress code... but a little "fun" is encouraged (madras in the summer for example...)


salgy,

As a geezer who's been wearing Black Watch sport coats for slightly more than half a century, and Black Watch trou for just a few years less than that, I have developed some rules of thumb that work for me. They may, or may not, work for you. Here goes:

• They are not a substitute for Red cords with candy canes embroidered on them. I've come to think of Black Watch as the most sober of tartans - appealing and manly, yes - but flamboyant, no.

• I wear Black Watch in the cooler months, not just December. For example, I wore Black Watch trousers this Thanksgiving.

• I've tried wearing cotton Black Watch in the Spring and Summer, but the colors don't work for me in the warmer months. YMMV.

• I do not concern myself with "the right" to wear Black Watch coats and trousers because: a) I am an American and, less important, b) the Black Watch is a Regimental tartan, not a Clan tartan.

• I would never, ever, wear Black Watch on St. Patrick's Day. The Irish have long, bitter, memories of the Black Watch Regiment.

• Events and occasions where I've felt comfortable and - truth be told - excited to wear Black Watch have included: Cocktail parties, dinner parties, reunions, college Football games, athletic awards ceremonies, and Club social events. Having a Single Malt Scotch in one hand and a good cigar in the other, while wearing a Black Watch sport coat, somehow makes me feel really, really good!

Good luck with your new acquisition!


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

^ Well said.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

Billax nails it. Insight like this is one of the reasons I so enjoy AAAC.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Barnavelt said:


> Well there you go. This romanticism is alive and well today with periodic peaks, at least it seems in America, that coincide with movie releases (i.e. "Braveheart", which was of course directed by an Australian anyway). As a youth I recall a friend and myself being obsessed with the "Highlander" film, Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod, sword fighting, and attractive Highland women. Of course that film also was directed by an Australian. In fact perhaps the Australians are the ones who truly are obsessed with all things Scottish.


It probably has something to do with the fact that there are more Scottish-Americans than there are Scots.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Billax said:


> As a geezer who's been wearing Black Watch sport coats for slightly more than half a century, and Black Watch trou for just a few years less than that, I have developed some rules of thumb that work for me.


thank you Billax, i am going to adhere to your rules & see where they lead me...


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Barnavelt said:


> Billax nails it. Insight like this is one of the reasons I so enjoy AAAC.


agree 100%


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Well, this is all very entertaining. Should I ever have occasion to wear 'black tie' during the holidays (or any other time, for that matter) I will take these comments under advisement.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Barnavelt said:


> I will gladly post a picture. I am having some trouble determining the appropriate tie however. I also have a pair of blackwatch shorts purchased at a thrift sale; just the thing to accentuate pasty white legs in May!
> 
> As for taste, I always have enjoyed plaids and tartans. My family is a sept of the McLaren clan, which has a lovely tartan, and I always have worn my tie proudly. Unfortunately I recently found out the notion of "septs" was generally cooked up in the 19th century as a way to raise money for clans that were willing to attach themselves in name only to people with no real Scots heritage; all things Scottish have been fascinating to the public at large for a very long time. I would say in general most Americans think it is classy and fun to be associated with clans and the like. The proliferation of St Andrews societies attests to that, and the requirements for proving Scots heritage are often quite loose.
> 
> Anyway, I find blackwatch clothing to be classy and fun, and as I associate it with Christmas, will be wearing it within the month of December.


But why would you associate it with Christmas? I could just about understand New Year, and only New Year's eve and New Year's Day, but why Christmas?


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

Chouan said:


> But why would you associate it with Christmas? I could just about understand New Year, and only New Year's eve and New Year's Day, but why Christmas?


By way of explanation I must admit that I was, to some extent, trying to be witty by saying I associate it with Christmas (which I do) without actually providing any explanation why. A bit silly of me I guess! I suppose that, since tartans most often are present in woolen form, the average American associates them with warm clothing and the wintertime. I know that my first tartan item was a woolen muffler when I was young, for example. Also, and I may be going out on a limb here, for many Americans there is a distinct vein of Anglophilia that erupts especially around the holidays. "A Christmas Carol", beef wellington, wassail, single malt scotch, tweed clothing, and similar UK-related traditions all are part of many American's celebrations and I daresay tartan clothing and other items fit well with a general celebratory "cheers" to the old country in which many people indulge during the holidays. Of course American society is quite heterogeneous and I am admittedly describing a more or less Anglo Saxon point of view but it is what I grew up with.

For some reason I now feel quite impatient for Christmas to arrive, and not just so I can wear my tartan suit.


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## benjclark (Mar 14, 2012)

Barnavelt said:


> By way of explanation I must admit that I was, to some extent, trying to be witty by saying I associate it with Christmas (which I do) without actually providing any explanation why. A bit silly of me I guess! I suppose that, since tartans most often are present in woolen form, the average American associates them with warm clothing and the wintertime. I know that my first tartan item was a woolen muffler when I was young, for example. Also, and I may be going out on a limb here, for many Americans there is a distinct vein of Anglophilia that erupts especially around the holidays. "A Christmas Carol", beef wellington, wassail, single malt scotch, tweed clothing, and similar UK-related traditions all are part of many American's celebrations and I daresay tartan clothing and other items fit well with a general celebratory "cheers" to the old country in which many people indulge during the holidays. Of course American society is quite heterogeneous and I am admittedly describing a more or less Anglo Saxon point of view but it is what I grew up with.
> 
> For some reason I now feel quite impatient for Christmas to arrive, and not just so I can wear my tartan suit.


I think you nailed it! The small, remote farming community I live in was largely settled by Scandinavians, especially Norwegians and Danes, and though you will hear people say "Uffda!" throughout the year, the "Olde Country" traditions really come to the fore during the holidays. Nordic pattern sweaters and other knits, funny hats, and food. :icon_viking:


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Here's an interesting tartan suit, worn by an American, from Wisconsin; Scottish father. Served in the Sikh Army, amongst others.








Clearly wearing tartan is an American tradition!
Here he is with some of his men.









He was called Alexander Gardner.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

Chouan said:


> Here's an interesting tartan suit, worn by an American, from Wisconsin; Scottish father. Served in the Sikh Army, amongst others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow what a distinguished looking gentleman!


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## oxford (Feb 24, 2008)

I have two pairs of Blackwatch Trousers, one Fall/Winter weight from Brooks and one Spring/Summer weight from Majer. They look good with Navy Blazers of equal weights and a Camel Hair Sport Coat with the Fall/Winter weight. Team them with white or blue oxford button down and an equesterian club tie or solid navy knit tie finished off with navy cable knit Pantherella socks and Alden Tassell Slip On's in Burgandy and your set for whatever. Majer's Winter Tartan (which is their name for it) is also a great looking pant as is their Galway Tartan for Spring/Summer. Don't forget the Dress Campbell trousers and the Royal Stewart trousers also as they can be worn with many different accesories.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

A Black Watch tartan blazer would look great with herringbone trousers and vice versa. For inspiration, check out some of the photographs of H.R.H. The Duke of Edinburgh at the Highland Games, where he wear beautiful tweed jackets with various tartan kilts.


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## boatswaindog (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm dating myself by confessing to being born in 1955. When I was a teenager in the late 60s and early 70s tartan wool pants were far more than today a part of the standard wardrobe. It wasn't unusual to wear a pair of tartan trousers to public school, let alone prep school. It was part of the standard wardrobe for middle class kids in New England. Nowadays they are an exotic addition to the wardrobe. In my dotage, blackwatch trousers from Orvis and a JPress navy wool blazer have returned to the rotation. Tom


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

boatswaindog said:


> I'm dating myself by confessing to being born in 1955. When I was a teenager in the late 60s and early 70s tartan wool pants were far more than today a part of the standard wardrobe. It wasn't unusual to wear a pair of tartan trousers to public school, let alone prep school. It was part of the standard wardrobe for middle class kids in New England. Nowadays they are an exotic addition to the wardrobe. In my dotage, blackwatch trousers from Orvis and a JPress navy wool blazer have returned to the rotation. Tom


Perhaps it has something to do with the decline of Americans of British (or in this case North British) ancestry. I doubt the Italian-Americans of Jersey Shore would wear them.


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## JmpMstr82 (Nov 12, 2012)

Great discussion; I've been examining the many facets - and comparing the various manufacturers - of Black Watch trousers and I have settled on the Madison Fit Plain-Front Black WatchDeco trousers from Brooks Brothers. Admittedly, I only conducted surface research,so I'm not exactly sure whether the colors are exclusively Blue-Black-Green, norwhat the Red, and sometimes Gold/Yellow, single stripes mean and how long they'vebeen a part of the pattern.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

Not a great pic at all, but here's how it turned out:










I figured I might as well take it all the way and wear a bow. Turns out the pants were a big hit.

Alden tassels down below.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

For anyone who followed the beginning of the thread, here is a photo as promised / threatened of me in my blackwatch suit on Christmas day. LE dress shirt, Rooster knit tie. I am wearing black Rockports down below, which were thrifted by my wife and actually proved quite comfortable for the purpose, what with the snow and all. I was considering my AWW but they are brown and I thought the black was a better choice.


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## swb120 (Aug 9, 2005)

^^^^^ Awesome, awesome, awesome.

But quick question: are those separates that you put together as a suit, or was it purchased together? I ask only b/c the plaids look to be different sizes, but it could be my bad eyes playing tricks on me.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

hockeyinsider said:


> Perhaps it has something to do with the decline of Americans of British (or in this case North British) ancestry. I doubt the Italian-Americans of Jersey Shore would wear them.


In an ironic twist, DeNiro wears a pair in the last scene of "Silver Linings Playbook." Sure, the "Italian-Americans of Jersey Shore" wouldn't wear tartan trousers. Neither would 20-something clubgoers of German descent from Austin, Texas, or (yes) 20-something clubgoers of Scottish descent. I don't think the issue is ethnicity, but rather one of fashion: it's not as if tartan trousers are seen significantly less than other slightly esoteric trad gear -- heck, I've seen more tartan trousers than I have embroidered cords.

Billax & Barnavelt, great posts.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

swb120 said:


> ^^^^^ Awesome, awesome, awesome.
> 
> But quick question: are those separates that you put together as a suit, or was it purchased together? I ask only b/c the plaids look to be different sizes, but it could be my bad eyes playing tricks on me.


Thanks very much for your kind words. Yes, they are separates. My wife found the jacket and I found the pants, both on different days at the same hospital thrift sale.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Billax said:


> salgy,
> 
> As a geezer who's been wearing Black Watch sport coats for slightly more than half a century, and Black Watch trou for just a few years less than that, I have developed some rules of thumb that work for me. They may, or may not, work for you. Here goes:
> 
> ...


Excellent posting. As to the Irish thing I would definitely agree. My wife is half Irish (the other half German, love the combo) and has a beautiful Black Watch dress that she will occasionally wear around Christmastime. Some of her siblings that consider themselves to be _very_ Irish get a bit huffy at her choice of outfits.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Billax said:


> I've tried wearing cotton Black Watch in the Spring and Summer, but the colors don't work for me in the warmer months. YMMV.


Eh. Anytime is the right time to wear a Tartan and/or blackwatch. I have shirts/trousers/waistcoats/jackets/shorts in cotton/linen/worsted wool and have no problem wearing them in the spring or summer. I don't view them as being remotely seasonal and, I believe, National Tartan Day is in April in the U.S. If I could find a nice black watch madras shirt, I'd buy it in an instant ( I do have two linen shirts in Blackwatch).


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

_ Originally Posted by *Billax* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1347924#post1347924
I've tried wearing cotton Black Watch in the Spring and Summer, but the colors don't work for me in the warmer months. YMMV.

_




Epaminondas said:


> Eh. Anytime is the right time to wear a Tartan and/or blackwatch. I have shirts/trousers/waistcoats/jackets/shorts in cotton/linen/worsted wool and have no problem wearing them in the spring or summer. I don't view them as being remotely seasonal and, I believe, National Tartan Day is in April in the U.S. If I could find a nice black watch madras shirt, I'd buy it in an instant ( I do have two linen shirts in Blackwatch).


Epaminondas, I don't get the "Eh." Not only did I specify that Black Watch didn't work for *me*, I indicated that YMMV (_Your Mileage May Vary_). I don't know how to better say that my opinions applied ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY to me. I take the gratuitous "Eh" as either a cheap shot or a lack of careful reading. Either way, it doesn't fit your otherwise careful posts.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Billax said:


> _ Originally Posted by *Billax* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1347924#post1347924
> I've tried wearing cotton Black Watch in the Spring and Summer, but the colors don't work for me in the warmer months. YMMV.
> 
> _
> ...


You're correct. No offense intended. You made it clear that it was a subjective statement - like mine.

I should have left out the "eh" and been more solicitous. My apologies.


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

Thank you, Sir. You are a Gentleman!


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