# Advice to People Starting Out



## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

What advice do you have for guys just starting to build a decent wardrobe? What mistakes did you make at the start?

I think the best piece of advice I would give would be to put your money towards 3-4 pairs of good shoes (Alden, AE) and spend as little as possible on shirts. You need to think of shirts as being semi-disposable. One spilled glass of red wine at the bar that you forget about and throw in the hamper for a week or an exploded pen and the shirt is done for. You're best off sticking to Land's End / Jos A. Bank and putting the extra cash towards shoes, which will last decades if properly cared for.

The amortized cost of a pair of Allen Edmonds is what, $30 a year for the life of the shoe? Maybe less? That's assuming you spend $300 on a new pair and $300 getting them re-crafted three times over the course of 20 years. It's much less than the annual cost of a pair of less expensive shoes that you can't get re-crafted. 

Spending a bunch of money on new shirts is tempting since it's psychologically easier to spend $100 on a nice dress shirt than $300 on a new pair of shoes, even though the shoes will last much longer and it's quite likely that you'll screw up the shirt in a year or 2 (thereby costing you $50 a year for 2 years of use--more expensive than the shoe example when we amortize over the useful life).

Also, eBay is a FANTASTIC source for used ties. There's no reason to pay for new ties when starting out.

Finally, try on every suit/sport coat you can at BB, Press, Polo, even Macy's. That's the only way you'll get a feel for how things fit and what you like.


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## Dmontez (Dec 6, 2012)

I think my biggest mistake was not knowing about AAAC early enough. That and buying cole haan, and J&M shoes.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

The single greatest piece of advice I would offer to a novice is this: do not spend a single penny until you have read as much as you can on the subject of menswear. Then read some more.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Shaver said:


> The single greatest piece of advice I would offer to a novice is this: do not spend a single penny until you have read as much as you can on the subject of menswear. Then read some more.


This. But also realize that no matter how much you try, you are going to succumb to temptation, which means you are going to make mistakes. I would, respectfully, disagree that one should start out with three or four pairs of shoes. I would start with two, one pair brown oxfords, one pair black and, as the OP states, go with AE or equivalent. A pair of penny loafers in addition to oxfords, perhaps.

You knew this was coming: Instead of buying new, stock the closet from thrift stores, the thrift exchange or, if you are certain of your size, the seller knows their stuff and takes returns, eBay. Given that you are going to make mistakes, going secondhand can save hundreds, even thousands. That shirts are disposable is dead-on right. They are also fairly standard in size, and so once you know your size, you can buy secondhand BB OCBD's all day long for $20 or less.

Research brands. While it is true that JM is junk, that has not always been so. Vintage JM shoes are every bit as good as AE, but much, much more affordable on the secondary market because of label snobbery. Label snobbery can work to your advantage--why pay $75-$100 for used AE's when you can get a pair of JM Aristocrafts that are every bit as good, maybe better, for $20-$25?

Pay attention to accessories. Once you have the staples (see below) realize that socks and ties, which don't cost much, deliver tremendous bang for the buck, socks especially. You'll turn way more heads with the right set of argyles from Target than you will with the most expensive Oxxford suit.

Don't compromise on fit. Never. Ever. And spend lots of time on WAYWT to figure out what good fit is. The old saw remains true: A $125 suit from JAB that fits is far superior to a $5,000 Brioni suit that does not.

Finally, never forget that a large wardrobe is not necessarily a good wardrobe. Too many of us, me included, have way more clothes than we should. It doesn't make us any better dressed than the fellow who gets everything into one closet and one dresser with room left over.

Bottom line, here's the starting point (this is for office/professional wear):

Two pair shoes, as discussed

One navy blazer. Make it a good one, because this is a staple that never goes out of style and will be the most versatile item of clothing in your closet.

One charcoal suit.

One navy suit.

One button-down blue shirt
One button-down white shirt
One point collar white shirt
One point collar blue shirt
One blue university stripe shirt

One pair tan wool dress trousers

One brown belt

One black belt

One repp stripe tie with blues

One repp stripe tie with reds

One red foulard tie

One blue foulard tie

One predominately yellow tie (for when you are feeling daring/naughty).

Five pairs of socks

One tan rain coat, either single-breast or DB

One charcoal overcoat for cold weather (if you live north of the Mason-Dixon line)

And that, really and truly, is it. All you will ever need to look fantastic at the office from now until forever more, and everyone will consider you a clothes horse. The suit trousers can do double duty as odd trousers. Once you have these items, you can start acquiring more ties in various colors--green, orange, pastels, etc.--to rotate with the seasons. You can also start considering pinstripe suits, and perhaps a pink OCBD and a pink point collar (I have a weakness for pink). But, if you're doing it right, you shouldn't buy anything else until you have acquired these things because you really don't need anything else--a steak usually looks and tastes best without gravy. Or, as Thom Browne says, when people have too many choices, they generally make bad choices.

Class dismissed.


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

I'll make a few assumptions.
1 - 'just starting out' usually indicates a person in their young 20's
2 - there is some fixed time crunch driven by interviews/job starting, etc that would preclude waiting a year to learn everything here
3 - you work at a place that is largely 'nice' business casual, with the occasional suit. not a white shoe firm with a strict dark suit, white shirt, plain tie wardrobe

That said, here's what I'd recommend:
1 - Get a properly fitted pair of allen edmonds black oxfords. pay full freight. they will not fit like your nike's.
2 - A decent suit that fits well. Solid charcoal will likely be the most versatile. Don't break the bank, as you will likely change sizes in the next 5 years, and you'll discover preferences for things you don't know you can have a preference for yet.
3 - 2 light blue, 2 white, 1 'fun' dress shirts. Make sure your neck size fits and you aren't swimming in it. Don't get a non-iron that looks as such. 
4 - ties, buy 3 grenadines from winston. burgundy, navy, and other. fill in fun ties as demands warrant
5 - Over the calf, merino wool dress socks that approximate the color of your suit. 
6 - 1 pair grey dress slacks like those sold at BB. 1 pair navy.
7 - anderson little navy blazer.
8 - a non-shiny decent black belt

This satisfies the basic 'grey / black'. When the time and funds allow, either mirror this with a brown, or add to the blacks if work demands (perhaps a burgundy wingtip, etc).


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

- Go slow. Do not try and assemble everything at once.

- When buying used, be absolutely certain of your measurements. And do not try to measure yourself, it doesn't work.

- Resist impulse buys. The patch Madras jacket may well be the _ne plus ultra_ of patch Madras jackets, but if it hangs in the closet unworn it's a waste of money and space.

- You do not need six pairs of spectator shoes. I know this from personal experience.

- Just because something's on sale doesn't mean it's a good deal. You'll save even more if you don't buy it at all.

- If you find pants from Lands End that fit well, buy as many as you can afford, because LE changes their pants up all the time.

- You probably can't have enough knit ties, and you can roll one up and stick it in the glove compartment as an emergency backup, or for use as a tourniquet.

- Don't spit on the floor - remember the Johnstown flood.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

The best approach, IME, is to nail the basics first. It's very tempting to go for "statement" pieces and GTH stuff before you're ready for it. Make sure you have an adequate supply of khakis, a decent cross section of ties, at least two pairs of quality shoes and most importantly, shirts. I can't disagree with the OP enough regarding shirts. This is the trad forum. If you're a member, chances are there's an OCBD on your back 24/7. Don't compromise on the quality of such a staple in your wardrobe and have enough for a good rotation before moving ahead.

If you want to see the right approach to nailing the basics before moving on (documented in photos), take a look at oxford cloth button down's posts on the WAYWT starting from the beginning. He is the perfect example of restraint and it's evident that he made darn sure he could walk before he started running. The results speak for themselves.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Shaver said:


> The single greatest piece of advice I would offer to a novice is this: do not spend a single penny until you have read as much as you can on the subject of menswear. Then read some more.





32rollandrock said:


> Don't compromise on fit. Never. Ever. ...
> 
> Finally, never forget that a large wardrobe is not necessarily a good wardrobe. Too many of us, me included, have way more clothes than we should.





Patrick06790 said:


> - Go slow. Do not try and assemble everything at once.





hardline_42 said:


> The best approach, IME, is to nail the basics first. It's very tempting to go for "statement" pieces and GTH stuff before you're ready for it.


Addressed to Hayek's hypothetical 'starter outer':

Agree with all of the above.

Implied in some of these comments is something I will underline: seek to maximise the versatility of different items in the wardrobe: don't assemble 'outfits'; make sure as much matches with other items as possible.

Trad is great for this, as is any form of wardrobe based on classical staples (whether or not inspired by TNSIL). Avoid faddish fashions, etc.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

> One spilled glass of red wine at the bar that you forget about and throw in the hamper for a week or an exploded pen and the shirt is done for.


You must not have a very good cleaner.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

A few years ago Andy was one of a number of experts asked to give one tip or the best tip or something like it. The other experts said something about fit or style or the like. Andy said, I paraphrase, the most important thing about your clothes is that they are appropriate for the occasion. I hesitate to call anything to do with clothes profound, but I believe his answer is not just the best answer but actually the fundamental principle in dress and presentation as a whole.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

BB OCBD are a steal at the 25%.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Exception for shoes, but even then you're tastes may change, so don't buy 10 pair at once.

Buy cheap to inexpensive at first. Possibly for awhile. You don't really know your tastes for a little while. This goes for a lot of stuff: collar styles, pants fit, jacket fit, jacket styles, etc...


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

Don't worry about branding as much as you should worry about fit and appearance. It is far better to look good than be draped in labels. 

Tom


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## mingus2112 (Dec 6, 2011)

I've actually thought about this a lot. I made a lot of mistakes when I decided to start dressing better. Unfortunately, I think if I could tell my younger self what I know now, I'm not sure i'd do much different. When you open your eyes to style, it's a whole new world. The more you read, the more you want. You pick up the buzz words. You read about people finding gold (figuratively AND literally) in thrift shops. You just make mistakes.

One mistake I didn't make was shoes. I bought a pair of black bostonian cap toes at Nordstrom Rack for about $25 to go with a black tie rig I had to wear. With the way I went off buying OTHER things, I could have wasted a lot of money on cheap shoes. I didn't. WHEW! My only mistake with shoes was my feelings about them. I thought even $100 was too much for shoes. I'd pay $450 for a suit, but wouldn't spend $100 on shoes. If I could go back in time and show that guy all of my awesome Allen Edmonds now, I think he'd understand!

The biggest mistake I made was buying too many pieces, too fast. I also didn't coordinate outfits or even take 10 minutes to figure out what I could get away with wearing most days. I work in IT at a university (in the Library) where the IT uniform is usually jeans and a polo. Librarians dress a little better, but almost never jackets. I can't just flip a switch and wear suits every day.. .yet, I bought 10 used Southwick suits from a member here because they were a great deal! The WERE a great deal, but I don't wear them enough.

Another "mistake" I made was cheaping out on things. 5 pair of Dockers that I don't wear anymore at the steal price of $20/pair could have been a nice pair of Bills Khakis that i'd wear every week! Just because it's a great price, doesn't mean you should buy it. Unless you're going to resell it or wear it, that great price is just throwing your money away!

Best purchases i've made are my Allen Edmonds shoes, made to measure shirts and my vintage Harris Tweed jackets. They all get plenty of wear.

So I guess, bottom line, is:

1) Quality over quantity (seriously - you cn get by with 2 pair of fantastic khakis instead of 5 or 6 pair of cheap ones!)
2) Quality shoes are more important than you realize! Spend the money!
3) Shop for OUTFITS instead of pieces!
4) If it doesn't fit perfectly, don't buy it. (once you learn what alterations are possible and what they cost, you can venture into "take this in at the waist" territory)
and one that I didn't talk about above:
5) Uniforms are OK! (that's your niche!)

-J


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

^ It's funny, I completely disagree about the outfit element. I suspect you may mean to buy clothes within the framework of your wardrobe as a whole; I do think that's a fantastic idea. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, and I'm happy to disagree if that's the case. 

I'm definitely all for putting the effort in on the buying side, such that most things work with other things. That way the actual getting dressed is simple.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

I don't like when people start out with Aldens or AEs. People should struggle (like me) through a few years of Bostonian and Nunn Bush. THEN, they would be able to fully appreciate a premium footwear experience.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Buying too many shoes at once.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

This is the place to get your questions answered well. My fashion experience is limited but when entering any unfamiliar territory, if your life is not at risk, make some mistakes.

I have a beautiful dark olive shirt, great label, fantastic fabric , the body fits close but not tight ,sleeves are great, the neck is 15 3/4 perfect and the wife loves it. It goes with most of my thrifted sport coats. And its two inches wide in the shoulders, I'll never wear it.

And I'll never make that same mistake .


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

Several have mentioned it already, but certainly go slow and buy conservatively until your taste matures. Even then, I think it's great advice to be fearless about cutting your wardrobe. Don't think of it as money wasted but rather as a hobby in which you participate. In that way, I'm glad I have a small closet because I allow myself to experience the garments therein many times over in a given season, and it accelerates my understanding of fabric, cut, and fit. And what it is I really enjoy wearing. If you find yourself with a piece that you don't look forward to wearing, pass it along to someone via the Thrift.

On the buying of "outfits," I translate this in my own way as making sure that an item I buy will already coordinate with several other things already in the closet. I try to rid myself of things that can only be used singularly, such as that pair of flannel pants that only match one jacket.


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## mingus2112 (Dec 6, 2011)

hookem12387 said:


> I suspect you may mean to buy clothes within the framework of your wardrobe as a whole; I do think that's a fantastic idea. .


That's PRETTY much what i meant. Once you have some clothes, you want to keep an eye out for pieces that will fit in with other pieces in your wardrobe. To me that means thinking "Oh, I can wear this with my gray flannels and walnut oxfords! You also need to start somewhere, and I think this means putting together an outfit or two.



drlivingston said:


> I don't like when people start out with Aldens or AEs. People should struggle (like me) through a few years of Bostonian and Nunn Bush. THEN, they would be able to fully appreciate a premium footwear experience.


Interesting! I never thought of it this way and perhaps that's why I finally "got" good shoes.

Something else I want to add: If you're asking for help, listen! I'm guilty of this as well. "What does everyone think about ____________ ?" "Oh, we think you'd do much better saving up more money and buying ____________________ ." "But I already have a gift card to ___________ and I can get these now." And then I go down the rabbit hole of defending my choice. Why did I ask? I wanted validation.

And on the topic of slowing down - this is really key. Everyone is different, but for me at least, my personal style wasn't what I thought it was or even what I secretly wanted it to be. Deep down I wish I could dress like I was on Downton Abbey. I THOUGHT my style was way more fashion forward than that. Turns out that i'm most comfortable dressing a mix of trad and semi fashion forward slim stuff. It took me a long time and a lot of tailoring before I figured out what I liked and felt good in. If I had curbed the spending a bit in the beginning I could have saved myself a ton!

-J


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## mingus2112 (Dec 6, 2011)

Mississippi Mud said:


> On the buying of "outfits," I translate this in my own way as making sure that an item I buy will already coordinate with several other things already in the closet. I try to rid myself of things that can only be used singularly, such as that pair of flannel pants that only match one jacket.


yes! that's what i was trying to say (hookem12387) but wasn't coming across right!

-J


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

You can never own too many pairs of socks.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

ArtVandalay said:


> You can never own too many pairs of socks.


+1 Especially when the sock fairy starts making off with one from each pair.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

1. Know the measurements which fit you. Know how to measure the following items: suit coat / sport coat / blazer, pants, shirts. This opens up the opportunity to buy great items at incredible prices on the AAAC Trad Exchange. 

2. I strongly disagree with the advice to use a pair of trousers from a suit as odd trousers. That is horrible advice.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

I agree with the above. 

In addition to this forum, watching certain movies can be instructive.

For me the best moves were
1) waiting for the sales at BB and LE: ocbd shirts for $10 or so in the case of LE is pretty painless.
2) buying suits and jackets on the exchange rather than new.
3) not spending much on peripherals: ties and squares aren't worth much in my opinion. A few good ones should suffice.
4) paying less than $2, years ago, for a Timex that I really like.

If I could start over, I would wait for a sale on navy socks, something like gold-toe, and buy about 20 pair. I have drawers full of fancy socks that I don't wear. I even have a half dozen pair of Pantharellas still in their packaging. Sockless or navy would cover virtually every situation.

I think everyone needs to learn some things the hard way. For me it was buying too many suits in an attempt to find something I couldn't quite define. Spending a bit more on fewer items would have been far more economical (but then my nephews wouldn't be so well dressed if I had been wiser). In the end, as is so often the case, the journey was as important as the destination.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

mingus2112 said:


> 3) Shop for OUTFITS instead of pieces!





hookem12387 said:


> ^ It's funny, I completely disagree about the outfit element. I suspect you may mean to buy clothes within the framework of your wardrobe as a whole; I do think that's a fantastic idea. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, and I'm happy to disagree if that's the case.


Agree with Hookem's take on this.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

arkirshner said:


> +1 Especially when the sock fairy starts making off with one from each pair.


That b%$#@ has been visiting me far too often!!:crazy:


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

hookem12387 said:


> ^ It's funny, I completely disagree about the outfit element. I suspect you may mean to buy clothes within the framework of your wardrobe as a whole; I do think that's a fantastic idea. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, and I'm happy to disagree if that's the case.
> 
> I'm definitely all for putting the effort in on the buying side, such that most things work with other things. That way the actual getting dressed is simple.


The great Richard Merkin also recommended that you should buy pieces that you like and eschew buying "outfits". He went a step further to suggest that this recommendation should be followed regardless of whether the piece "matches" anything in your current closet. His thinking was that you'll find a place for it eventually in your regular wardrobe.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

ArtVandalay said:


> You can never own too many pairs of socks.


or underwear for that matter.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

try to look for the cheapest bargains and don't go over your limit.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> The great Richard Merkin also recommended that you should buy pieces that you like and eschew buying "outfits". * He went a step further to suggest that this recommendation should be followed regardless of whether the piece "matches" anything in your current closet. His thinking was that you'll find a place for it eventually in your regular wardrobe.*


Disagree with the second bit (emphasis added). I like the idea of having generally complimentary articles.(*) Partly that is about efficient use of resources: needing fewer things means quality can be prioritised. Partly it is about not wanting a surfeit of 'stuff', but having enough to dress as I wish to present myself. There's a big debate raging over at The Other Place on this at the moment - a lot of what Mafoofan and Manton writes resonates with me (although not carried to such an extreme as the former has written about).

(*) Clearly that sometimes only works within different modes (i.e. one isn't going to wear a shepherd's check tie with country tweeds; barbour over a suit, etc.).


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Balfour said:


> Disagree with the second bit. I like the idea of having generally complimentary articles. Clearly that sometimes only works within different modes (i.e. one isn't going to wear a shepherd's check tie with country tweeds). Partly that is about efficient use of resources: needing fewer things means quality can be prioritised. Partly it is about not wanting a surfeit of 'stuff', but having enough to dress as I wish to present myself. There's a big debate raging over at The Other Place on this at the moment - a lot of what Mafoofan and Manton writes resonates with me (although not carried to such an extreme as the former has written about).


Balfour, I cannot say I completely disagree with you. However, in defense of Merkin, I think his genius prevented him from seeing that others may not have the innate sense of style that flowed so easily from within him.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Balfour, I cannot say I completely disagree with you. However, in defense of Merkin, I think his genius prevented him from seeing that others may not have the innate sense of style that flowed so easily from within him.


I guess it depends on what one means "eventually ... regular wardrobe". I had read this to mean that ultimately you would acquire other things that would compliment the article in question. But is the philosophy more one that even if the article did not appear to compliment anything initially, over time you would find combinations where it did work? Either way, maximum versatility within modes for me.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Balfour said:


> I guess it depends on what one means "eventually ... regular wardrobe". I had read this to mean that ultimately you would acquire other things that would compliment the article in question. But is the philosophy more one that even if the article did not appear to compliment anything initially, over time you would find combinations where it did work? Either way, maximum versatility within modes for me.


I think it's at a higher level than that. It's not an equation of A + B = Stylish, where A is waiting for B to enter the wardrobe. It's more like expanding the universe of possibilty...beyond my capabilities, but I think I almost understand.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

I would suggest diligent reading of the Trad Forum Archives. This is the best way to find out what you must know and what you must do with respect to Trad and TNSIL clothing.

I really like Hayek's idea of categorizing Trad gems according to service life and focusing spending on the long-lasting items. I would add to Hayek's list of Aldens and AE's such items as Barbour jackets, alligator belts, and Tiffany belt buckles. 

Also, I would obtain larger-than-intuitively-normal quantities of the less-durable staples such as Brooks must-iron OCBD's and tropical-weight blazers from J. Press and The Andover Shop when these items go on sale. Some items, such as the lined balmcaans and trench coats from Jos. A. Bank, may not be Trad in the specific sense, but are generic enough for easy Trad use and are reasonably priced. 

I'm also a big fan of Dickies 874 Original Fit khaki pants. I no longer wear blue jeans, and no longer wear out all my Brooks Brothers khakis every six months, because of these pants. They fit well, are indestructible, and cost $25 a pair.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Steve Smith said:


> I strongly disagree with the advice to use a pair of trousers from a suit as odd trousers. That is horrible advice.


I agree with you. The member who gave that advice inexplicably failed to include grey flannel trousers on his list (ouch). I think, other than a good pair of chinos that fit, a good pair of grey flannels are the most useful leg coverings in existence.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Balfour said:


> Partly it is about not wanting a surfeit of 'stuff', but having enough to dress as I wish to present myself. There's a big debate raging over at The Other Place on this at the moment - a lot of what Mafoofan and Manton writes resonates with me (although not carried to such an extreme as the former has written about).


Those two operate in a mostly theoretical or hypothetical headspace. Neither learned (or were ever taught) that masturbation is best done in private.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Perhaps I just woke up in a contrary frame of mind, but I will defend "shop for outfits instead of pieces" as great advice for those beginning the journey. It is a long road from naked baby to Richard Merkin, and at different points along the road different advise applies. In the Tractatus, Wittgenstein put it"My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands me finally recognizes them as senseless, when he has climbed out through them, on them, over them. (He must so to speak throw away the ladder, after he has climbed up on it.) (6.54)"

When a man starts out as a naked baby, metaphorically of course, with an empty closet even a list of the basic rules of thumb and a big checkbook will not suffice to put together perfect ensembles everyday. He is , to follow Wittgenstein' metaphor, on the lower rungs of the ladder. At this point, acquiring individual items, excellent though each may be, does not suffice to enable one to combine them into excellent ensembles. At this point on the ladder reference to examples are, not only useful, but really the only way for the man to be sure his ensemble is impeccable. 

If I may use myself as an example of a man once on a lower rung, (not that I much higher today, he adds with modesty appropriate from one in fly over country). In the mid 80s I came across Alan Flusser's early book, Clothes and the Man. At the conclusion of the book he has 16 pages of color pictures, 8 for fall/winter, 8 spring/summer. each page has two ensembles around one of the following: dark grey worsted suit, navy herringbone suit, gray flannel suit, DB navy chalk stripe suit, muted glen plaid suit, brown tweed herringbone jacket, blue DB blazer, and grey patterned tweed jacket for cooler months, and dark gray tropical suit,gray pinstripe suit, b/w glen plaid suit, tan gaberdine suit, olive cotton poplin suit,blue seersucker suit, summer blazer, and madras jacket for warmer months. Each is shown as two variations of jacket, shirt, tie and PS ensembles, 32 ensembles in all. Each ensemble has a short commentary explaining why each ensemble works. ( several ties, shirts and PSs from Chipp Inc., our friend Paul Winston's firm, are used).

At the time ,in my wardrobe I already had many of the individual items but not all. I remember buying a blue circle on yellow ground tie specifically to go with my blue shirt and b/w glen plaid, and a white contrast spread collar blue end on end shirt to dress up my navy suit as pictured in two of the examples.

I think it would be very helpful for a man starting out to buy, for example, his first navy suit to also buy shirts and ties as pictured in Flussers' examples as he will then be certain he has two impeccable ensembles. When he climbs higher up the ladder he will then have no need for the lower rungs of the ladder, (pictures of entire outfits), and discard the lower rungs.


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## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

I agree with pretty much everything here so I don't have a whole lot new to add. I'm guilty of most of the "don'ts" listed. I have way too many clothes, especially ties. That said, if you experiment via thrifts (assuming you are diligent about fit and quality), the mistakes will be painless weighed against the value of your finds.

One recommendation I would make is to not be overly dogmatic about one's "style." When I first joined this forum and started expanding my wardrobe, I focused too much on the "is this trad?" question to the exclusion of other pieces. Most of this was due to lack of knowledge about what else was out there. So, be broad in one's exposure and reading and incorporate quality items from the spectrum of menswear into one's wardrobe.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

arkirshner said:


> Perhaps I just woke up in a contrary frame of mind, but I will defend "shop for outfits instead of pieces" as great advice for those beginning the journey. It is a long road from naked baby to Richard Merkin, and at different points along the road different advise applies. In the Tractatus, Wittgenstein put it"My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands me finally recognizes them as senseless, when he has climbed out through them, on them, over them. (He must so to speak throw away the ladder, after he has climbed up on it.) (6.54)"
> 
> When a man starts out as a naked baby, metaphorically of course, with an empty closet even a list of the basic rules of thumb and a big checkbook will not suffice to put together perfect ensembles everyday. He is , to follow Wittgenstein' metaphor, on the lower rungs of the ladder. At this point, acquiring individual items, excellent though each may be, does not suffice to enable one to combine them into excellent ensembles. At this point on the ladder reference to examples are, not only useful, but really the only way for the man to be sure his ensemble is impeccable.
> 
> ...


Entirely correct. My mistake for introducing Merkin into this thread. One must learn to crawl before running the marathon....


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Buy things that fit and work with your coloring and work together. Start with identifying the different occasions you need to dress for and the level of formality required. 

Remember that it's important that women think you look good, on many different occasions. Take care not to look too unfashionable or dated. Avoid hats. Avoid anything that smacks of costume as the very plague. Well fitted, inconspicuous, but stylish. Allocate a proper amount of your disposable income to dressing well and classically. Make sure trousers fit well but are not too expensive. Make sure suits fit well and are not too cheap. If you think you can afford a 2000$ suit, you can probably afford a 500$ suit properly fitted with the right accessories.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Bjorn said:


> [. . .] Make sure trousers fit well but are not too expensive. Make sure suits fit well and are not too cheap. If you think you can afford a 2000$ suit, you can probably afford a 500$ suit properly fitted with the right accessories.


This I like, Bjorn.

And DD, as always, I couldn't have said it better myself!


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## inq89 (Dec 3, 2008)

I have a pretty decent writeup of what I consider the Basics:




Buy used or at deep discount. My main pair of loafers are Allen Edmonds Waldens that I got for less than $50 off eBay.


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## Yuca (Feb 19, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> Avoid hats.


I take it you spend most of your life indoors or in a car. Or perhaps you migrate every winter.


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## mingus2112 (Dec 6, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> If you think you can afford a 2000$ suit, you can probably afford a 500$ suit properly fitted with the right accessories.


WOW - this is great!


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Bjorn said:


> Buy things that fit and work with your coloring and work together. Start with identifying the different occasions you need to dress for and the level of formality required.
> 
> Remember that it's important that women think you look good, on many different occasions. Take care not to look too unfashionable or dated. Avoid hats. Avoid anything that smacks of costume as the very plague. Well fitted, inconspicuous, but stylish. Allocate a proper amount of your disposable income to dressing well and classically. Make sure trousers fit well but are not too expensive. Make sure suits fit well and are not too cheap. If you think you can afford a 2000$ suit, you can probably afford a 500$ suit properly fitted with the right accessories.


I agree with much of this, esp. the comment about avoiding costume, being inconspicuous, etc. Where I differ is in the exhortation to "Take care not to look too unfashionable or dated". IMO this is by definition a dated look (Sept of 1962 to be exact:wink2. It just so happens that our favorite style intersects with current fashion. When that changes, I hope a few of us will just keep wearing the things we bought 20 or 30 years or more ago (or received from our fathers) and have worn ever since. My assumption is that many on this site will move on when the fashion moves on. That's fine, but there will always be a core who remain committed to TNSIL even when it means looking unfashionable and dated. Maybe mine is the perspective of an older member who has been through the vicissitudes two or three times.


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## SLeiber (Apr 27, 2012)

As a complete beginner, I want to say thanks to everybody in this thread giving me some good things to think about.

My humble addition would be to ask questions. This forum is probably the friendliest I have ever been a part of and I can't remember asking a single question that didn't get at least one good answer. When in doubt, learn from others who may have already made the mistake you could be on the cusp of.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Reading up to start is absolutely required, but at some point you'll have to go out there and see what you're reading about. Find a good men's store, or the best dept. store you can, and go prepared to buy something, even if small; an actual customer will get more help than a mere looker. Then tell the salesman you're just starting on a wardrobe, and ask to see canvassed jackets, natural shoulders, different fabrics (e.g. super 100s vs. super 150s, gabardine vs. flannel). Don't request a full tutorial, just some examples. They're looking for long term customers, and should be willing to give a little time to help. DO mention you have a budget, and ask for specifics, so you're not just shown the most expensive stuff, or what they need to get out the door. Then go back and read some more in light of the new knowledge. I hate sounding like a codger, but when I first started dressing myself (more or less), even small towns had a place where men could shop with confidence that the store would send them out pretty well dressed at a reasonable price, due to pride of reputation. Chain stores are great for refrigerators and TVs, but not for clothes.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

P Hudson said:


> I agree with much of this, esp. the comment about avoiding costume, being inconspicuous, etc. Where I differ is in the exhortation to "Take care not to look too unfashionable or dated". IMO this is by definition a dated look (Sept of 1962 to be exact:wink2. It just so happens that our favorite style intersects with current fashion. When that changes, I hope a few of us will just keep wearing the things we bought 20 or 30 years or more ago (or received from our fathers) and have worn ever since. My assumption is that many on this site will move on when the fashion moves on. That's fine, but there will always be a core who remain committed to TNSIL even when it means looking unfashionable and dated. Maybe mine is the perspective of an older member who has been through the vicissitudes two or three times.


:icon_cheers:

Quite right. I don't dress "trad" in the TSNIL sense (although I like a lot of it, and it intersects with significant aspects of how I dress). But I intend to dress in my current classical style regardless of the vagaries of fashion, so long as it doesn't become anachronistic.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Hayek said:


> What advice do you have for guys just starting to build a decent wardrobe? What mistakes did you make at the start?
> 
> I think the best piece of advice I would give would be to put your money towards 3-4 pairs of good shoes (Alden, AE) and spend as little as possible on shirts. You need to think of shirts as being semi-disposable. One spilled glass of red wine at the bar that you forget about and throw in the hamper for a week or an exploded pen and the shirt is done for. You're best off sticking to Land's End / Jos A. Bank and putting the extra cash towards shoes, which will last decades if properly cared for.
> 
> ...


Buy everything in Primark. It is as cheap as chips.

Another economist John Maynard Keynes swore by them. He was famous for it.

And also his saying 'In the long run we are all dead'.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Hayek said:


> What advice do you have for guys just starting to build a decent wardrobe? What mistakes did you make at the start?
> 
> I think the best piece of advice I would give would be to put your money towards 3-4 pairs of good shoes (Alden, AE) and spend as little as possible on shirts. You need to think of shirts as being semi-disposable. One spilled glass of red wine at the bar that you forget about and throw in the hamper for a week or an exploded pen and the shirt is done for. You're best off sticking to Land's End / Jos A. Bank and putting the extra cash towards shoes, which will last decades if properly cared for.
> 
> ...


Buy everything at Primark. It is as cheap as chips.

Another economist - John Maynard Keynes - swore by them. He was famous for it.

That and 'in the long run we are all dead'.


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## halbydurzell (Aug 19, 2012)

I still consider myself very much a beginner but I must say that the Put This On blog was invaluable to me in terms of just getting me pointed in the right direction. My go to work rig for years was cheap black shoes, black pants, and a 60/40 Van Heusen shirt. No wonder I couldn't wait to rip all of it off of me the second I left work. Understanding simple basics like what colors went with what, what button NOT to button on a jacket, the difference between Oxford cloth and poly blends,etc. lead me to enjoy wearing clothes and clothes shopping along with starting to understand the history and purpose of clothes. That understanding combined with developing my own likes and dislikes eventually lead me to learning about "trad" and brought me here. I'd also occasionally hit up a thrift store and maybe buy something wacky, but now I'm there a few times a week as they have transformed from depressing, cheap t-shirt outposts into exhilirating treasure hunts now that I know what I'm looking for. In the past few years my whole thinking on clothes has changed and I feel I'm much better off for it. I'd definitely hit up PTO before any other clothing blog geared towards the authors personal tastes.


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## jshastings (Jul 30, 2012)

This may be some of the best advice given so far.


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## Chevo (Jan 3, 2013)

This has turned into a wonderful thread regarding a wardrobe for young professionals. I did not get into this arena until after grad school, which came at the age of 33! I am an assistant professor now, so I have had to change my dress habits. In grad school, everyone understood the lifestyle and most of the time we shopped at clothing exchange stores. I wish I would have found this forum much sooner. I could have avoided many mistakes. You do, however, learn from your mistakes - at least I tend to learn from them. And, I can admit that sometimes I had no clue as to what I was looking for in professional clothing. I have read many of the threads in this forum and I still have much to learn. So, I tend to agree with those of you who note that doing your research ahead of time will save you much money and frustration. 

I still, unfortunately, struggle with temptation. I appreciate those of you who make it a point to offer items at a damn good price as that tends to help my pocketbook. I also struggle with coordination. I have utilized some of the threads to put together outfits, but it is a work in progress.

I would then echo what has already been written by much more knowledgable folks than me - read, read, read or in my language, do your research!


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## coase (Apr 29, 2010)

I think the most valuable part of "making mistakes" is to understand your personal tastes. The rules are one thing, but what you like is another. After you start to internalize "the rules" you can weigh them against the norms for the groups you frequent vs. things you like or dislike personally. I've found things I like that shouldn't work, but that I feel do, so I wear them. Conversely, I've seen things that trad men approve of that I think are hideous, so I don't. 

I consider myself neither particularly stylish, nor fashion conscious, but I do feel like visiting this site for a couple of years and trying on and discarding different things has given me a better sense of what I want to wear, what I'm willing to wear, and what I don't care to wear. And that's probably the best lesson of all.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Yes I am learning that too, and that's one reason I'm periodically buying something from ebay, at least I can learn my lesson at a lower cost.


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## mingus2112 (Dec 6, 2011)

coase said:


> I think the most valuable part of "making mistakes" is to understand your personal tastes.


This is EXACTLY my experience. Also keep in mind that your personal taste may end up being different than you think. Styles that I really like don't always end up working out for me. I have to kind of wing it until I know what works and what doesn't - and then work that into my style!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Be open to anything. Things I used to think were passé or ugly grew on me. In fact, I'm getting a pair of bit loafers in the mail soon!


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## AshScache (Feb 4, 2013)

I agree more or less with everything that has been said. I'm a newcomer to this forum, but as a young attorney, have been dressing myself for years. I am also fortunate in that I wear the same size (48r) as my late-grandfather, and have over the years, acquired a lot of (and now nearly all) of his clothing. These have ranged from GTH patch madras slacks ( as well as several pairs of embroidered corduroys) , to beautiful sportcoats, to a suit that, had the trousers not fallen apart over time, was a perfect 2 button piece without a single brand, size, or other label on it.


But I've been buying clothes myself for a long time too. Brooks Brothers tends to fit my style and shape pretty well, and I can't disagree more with the advice to buy cheap shirts. I will say, however, that while it might be very "traddy" to avoid no-iron, unless your clothes are going to become your job, there's no reason not to buy some conservative (white and light blue) dress shirts in no iron. Buy some brass collar stays, and the collar will look excellent. Not every professional situation is suited by an OCBD, even if it is white. Nothing wrong with some "low-maintenance" shirts.

Regarding ties, my advice is to buy in bulk on Ebay. I have twice found decent deals on sets of 5 brooks brothers ties for $30 or $35--a steal! For a long time, I've had a rule of not spending more than $15 on a tie, and with a few very minor exceptions, have never broken the rule.

I disagree a bit with the prevailing wisdom on shoes. My 16th birthday present was a pair of black Bostonian captoe shoes (because thats what my dad wore) and I think I had about 5 pairs after that. Yes I bought them approximately once a year. But I didn't go from that to Allen Edmonds. Before the local outlet closed, I bought a few pairs (black, oxblood, and a tan) of Florsheim Imperials in a standard dress shoe (oxford). Also have a pair of penny loafers from there as well. Not the quality they once were, or of Allen Edmonds, but I wear the black ones quite a bit and they haven't even come close to needing a heel in 2 years. Didn't pay more than $70 for any of them either. I also have black and oxblood tassled loafers from Cole Haan, which at $45 apiece were a steal. I would never buy them if the outlay would be $250 or $300. My suede oxfords from Bass are also a nice pair with chinos on Fridays. And, at $30, they were a decent deal.

Regarding suits: I still haven't found what I'm looking for. I rarely find any decent suits in my size when I'm thrifting, and, in my need to look good in the "uniform" fairly regularly, I bought Jos. A. Bank Signature Gold suits (buy 1 get 3 was the deal at the time-- so, about $300/suit). I'm not in love with them, but I got one in blue stripe, grey stripe, solid blue, and solid grey-- ie, everything I ever need. Next time I buy suits it will be from either J.Press or Brooks Brothers on sale, however.

In the end, I can't agree more with wear what you like and what fits, though. And experiment. You can likely enlist the help of a woman to tell you what pants coordinate with what tweed and what tie, and over time you'll learn it on your own.

And if you're a cigar smoker like I am, thrift an outfit just for wearing to the cigar store, and segregate it! The rest of your clothes will thank you!


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

1. Properly fitted shirts make all the difference in wearing a necktie comfortably. I've never regretted spending a few extra bucks on tailor made shirts.
2. Burgundy/oxblood/cordovan accessories (ties, shoes, belts) match everything. Unless you are going on interviews in the immediate future, buying these first makes sense.
3. Complete-ism is a form of mental disease. You don't need one of everything of anything.
4. Don't buy items on spec. Excepting upcoming interviews, buy only things for which you have demonstrated needs within an immediate time horizon. 
(I am still working on the last two).


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

P Hudson said:


> [. . .] but there will always be a core who remain committed to TNSIL even when it means looking unfashionable and dated.


The TNSIL look is eternal but not generic. Tasty and extremely familiar like really good chocolate chip cookies!


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## mingus2112 (Dec 6, 2011)

Here's one that AldenPyle's first point reminded me of:

THE BEST WAY TO SAVE MONEY IS TO SPEND MONEY! I'm not sure if my younger self would have believed my older self on this point, but I can't even count how many time saving a buck or two actually COST me money in the end. That jacket that was only $18 in B&S but needed 14 alterations, the 4 $60 MTM shirts from a traveling tailor that needed alterations and brought the cost up to $100 for cheap fabrics. . .if I had just SAVED a little more and bought what I really wanted to begin with, I would have saved money in the long run. Unfortunately, a lot of us (myself included) need instant gratification and a little bit of money to spend burns a hole in our pocket!

-J


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## Shiny (Jan 7, 2013)

Always begin with staples (navy, black shoes, white or light blue shirts, charcoal, etc) then branch out to the "out there" stuff.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

AshScache said:


> You can likely enlist the help of a woman to tell you what pants coordinate with what tweed and what tie, and over time you'll learn it on your own.


This is just one line from an otherwise well thought out post but NO NO NO. It is true that some women have a very good feel for color, however it is for color as worn by women. Many combinations worn by women are aesthetically pleasing. On the other hand, no style of classical men's dress is all about aesthetics, it is about aesthetics within the boundaries of tradition and custom. Women look great in red dresses, men, from an aesthetic point of view, probably also look great in red suits, but who would wear one? A woman who does not know the boundaries of traditional men's wear will unknowingly suggest ensembles, that to them look good, but are really inappropriate for the occasion. I have seen this mistake time and again, especially in the choice of ties. Ties of different patterns and colors carry different associations. Women don't know the language of ties and so think of them as scarves. They will often suggest a tie that looks good but creates a certain dissonance in the ensemble as a whole and/or sends the wrong signal by virtue of its color or pattern. Women are to love, not to rely on for clothing suggestions.


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## coase (Apr 29, 2010)

Of course, to my mind, this applies to Nantucket Reds as well. They are just yesteryear's outrages made mellow with age. Justin Bieber for old fogies.


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## Larchmont (Jan 2, 2005)

Brooks Brother's (Alden) cordovan tassel loafers. I think they were $295 in 1993 (I cannot remember). Countless resoles and one recrafting and they still look fabulous.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

arkirshner said:


> This is just one line from an otherwise well thought out post but NO NO NO. It is true that some women have a very good feel for color, however it is for color as worn by women. Many combinations worn by women are aesthetically pleasing. On the other hand, no style of classical men's dress is all about aesthetics, it is about aesthetics within the boundaries of tradition and custom. Women look great in red dresses, men, from an aesthetic point of view, probably also look great in red suits, but who would wear one? A woman who does not know the boundaries of traditional men's wear will unknowingly suggest ensembles, that to them look good, but are really inappropriate for the occasion. I have seen this mistake time and again, especially in the choice of ties. Ties of different patterns and colors carry different associations. Women don't know the language of ties and so think of them as scarves. They will often suggest a tie that looks good but creates a certain dissonance in the ensemble as a whole and/or sends the wrong signal by virtue of its color or pattern. Women are to love, not to rely on for clothing suggestions.


I was wondering if someone would respond to that line. I was tempted, but wouldn't have done half as well as you have. I agree that a woman's eye is useful for a lot of things, and I don't mind when my wife compliments what I'm wearing, but TNSIL isn't really the place to give in to a woman's sensibilities.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

As per usual some truly great insight from the members here. Being patient in making purchases while accepting that one will make mistakes every now and then seems to be the most "zen" way of approaching things. I did not read enough when I was starting out and made all sorts of errors, either buying things that didn't fit or don't go with anything else I own just because they were "a bargain to good to pass up". Did anyone else here experience the same year long frenzy of "I need everything right now" that I did when I started out?


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## ran23 (Dec 11, 2014)

I can't find anything on 'TSNIL' unless it is something like Trad * * Ivy League??


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## Oldsport (Jan 3, 2012)

Try TNSIL ....



ran23 said:


> I can't find anything on 'TSNIL' unless it is something like Trad * * Ivy League??


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

I totally forgot that I made this thread but I'm glad that it generated such good discussion.

When I buy clothes now, I still try to think to myself "how much will this cost me over the item's useful life?" This has allowed me to focus more on saving up for "big ticket" items that won't wear out any time soon (such as a khaki rain coat or good shoes).

One other thought: well shined quality shoes, a well fitting sport coat, and a good haircut can generally take you very far and are three things you shouldn't skimp on.


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

Hayek said:


> I totally forgot that I made this thread but I'm glad that it generated such good discussion.
> 
> When I buy clothes now, I still try to think to myself "how much will this cost me over the item's useful life?" This has allowed me to focus more on saving up for "big ticket" items that won't wear out any time soon (such as a khaki rain coat or good shoes).
> 
> One other thought: well shined quality shoes, a well fitting sport coat, and a good haircut can generally take you very far and are three things you shouldn't skimp on.


In terms of advice, I was going to remind you to not immanetize the eschaton, but that's for Voegelin more than Hayek.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Southpaw Grammer (Feb 11, 2017)

Shaver said:


> The single greatest piece of advice I would offer to a novice is this: do not spend a single penny until you have read as much as you can on the subject of menswear. Then read some more.


A few years old, however In my opinion, this whole thread can be distilled down to this one piece of advice.


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## ran23 (Dec 11, 2014)

Still after what it stand for. again tonsil comes up.


Oldsport said:


> Try TNSIL ....


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## Proclus (Mar 8, 2016)

The natural shoulder ivy league look. If I'm not mistaken Billax coined the acronym.


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## Scott Anderson (Nov 20, 2008)

I'm from Nantucket and reds are just horrid lol. They are a novelty garment. Of course, I have four pair in various shades of fade. They live in a box in my house there. I don't allow them to leave the Island 

(Yes, guys I'm really from Nantucket.)

Get yourself a blue blazer, a couple of decent white shirts and blue shirts, a few ties, a well made belt in black and brown, a pair of khakis, black slacks and grey slacks, and some sort of shoe that isn't a sneaker also in black and brown and you can rotate that for a good while. (My Dad did for 78 years lol.)

If you just have to get a suit. Get in grey. You can wear that to a wedding a funeral or anything in between. I just love a nice grey suit and I dislike black suits with the same intensity.


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## Reddington (Nov 15, 2007)

Scott Anderson said:


> I'm from Nantucket and reds are just horrid lol. They are a novelty garment. Of course, I have four pair in various shades of fade. They live in a box in my house there. I don't allow them to leave the Island
> 
> (Yes, guys I'm really from Nantucket.)
> 
> ...


Excellent advice. Although I do like my reds......longs and shorts. I do agree they're not right if just starting out. 
:beer:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Scott Anderson said:


> ..................
> .................Get yourself a blue blazer, a couple of decent white shirts and blue shirts, a few ties, a well made belt in black and brown, a pair of khakis, black slacks and grey slacks, and some sort of shoe that isn't a sneaker also in black and brown and you can rotate that for a good while. (My Dad did for 78 years lol.)
> 
> ................


With the quoted paragraph, Scott Anderson describes almost perfectly the other than purely casual civilian wardrobe I packed into the backseat of (an eventually classic) Dodge Challenger R/T, as I drove of into the sunset, beginning my commissioned career with the USAF. It was certainly a good start on an eventually arguably excessive wardrobe! LOL.


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