# Is Alden the Crockett and Jones equivalent



## Professorshak (Mar 16, 2009)

Been trying to understand the overall quality, style, and value of these two shoes since the U.S. Only has AE and Alden that can compete with English shoes. 
And I hear that AE and Alden cost more overseas, pretty much like English shoes would cost more here (not counting Plal) 

So in terms of overall value and quality, would Alden be considered the American equivalent of Crockett and Jones?


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

No; it's like comparing apples to oranes. They're different styles. Plus, Crockett and Jones make two ranges: the benchgrade and handgrade. As far as I know Alden makes on line. I'm sure you can find an analytic who would say that benchgrade and Alden are similar or equivalent in terms of quality and construction.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Handgrade would be closer to Church's Royal line or Edward Green.


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

Style alone would say no. Alden are great American made/styled shoes. Especially the Shell cordovan collection. C&J Handgrades are much better quality and styled completely differently. I don't agree that they approach EG quality. They are very good shoes.


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

Tonyp said:


> Style alone would say no. Alden are great American made/styled shoes. Especially the Shell cordovan collection. C&J Handgrades are much better quality and styled completely differently. I don't agree that they approach EG quality. They are very good shoes.


Can you elaborate when you say much better quality.
I own alot of Allen Edmonds and Alden shoes.
If I wanted to investigate C&J, what would you point out on those shoes that makes them better than Allen Edmonds and Alden?
Please exclude design because design is irrelevant to quality and is subject to one's opinion as to whether one design is better than the other.

Also take into consideration that AE, and Alden use several types of leather for their shoes and different techniques for dress shoes vs handsewn loafers.

With those factors in mind please describe what makes C&J better shoes than AE and Alden.
Also exclude desriptions like 'better attention to detail' or 'better leather' 
unless you can specifically point out what is a better detail or better leather than the other.
Thanks


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## Professorshak (Mar 16, 2009)

Unless there is a better shoe maker in the states. Assuming there is an Alden and CJ shoe that you both equally like, and costs the same, all availability being equal, would you consider Alden equal in value and quality to CJ benchgrade?


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

Professorshak said:


> Unless there is a better shoe maker in the states. Assuming there is an Alden and CJ shoe that you both equally like, and costs the same, all availability being equal, would you consider Alden equal in value and quality to CJ benchgrade?


I'm not sure if you're asking me or Tony this question.
One thing to keep in mind on these threads is that there are ALOT of opinions concerning different brands.

You will read on these threads over and over that one brand is better than the other.
Those that make the statements usually don't back them up with evidence.

You'll also find that many members will tear down brands like Allen Edmonds or Alden without having ever owned a pair.

It's best to ask questions to those who own the brands you're curious about. Ask them about their personal experience. 
Because if you ask this forum with thousands of members you'll find hundreds willing to give their opinion with zero experience.

For example there's a member here that has a fair amount of knowledge about clothing for a person his age.
He continually enters threads critisizing Allen Edmonds claiming they're poorly built shoes and don't last.
Yet there are numerous members here that own Allen Edmonds that are more than twice this guys age.
So I just wanted you to get a heads up that there's alot of nonsense on these threads and you'll have to do your due diligence and weed through the junk opinions. 
I just make a mental note not to engage certain members knowing that their opinions are very biased with more opinion than fact. 
Because it's not likely I'll learn anything from them about specific topics and those reading the thread won't either.

Often members will claim a brand is 'better', better leather, better attention to details, better this, better that.
Most who say that will not be specific even when asked.
In that case ignore their claim until you find out specifically what they mean something is better.

Here's an example. 
*"A Lexus rides better than a Dodge."*
That statement tells you nothing so you're left with making an assumption about what that means. 
It would be best to describe what that means.
*"A Lexus LS400 has a softer ride on the highway than a Dodge Viper. 
You feel less of the road, it's quiter inside, the steering wheel doesn't follow 
every crack in the road. It's easy to relax because you don't have to fight to
stay in control of the car like the Dodge Viper."*

Here's another example.
*'A Lexus isn't as good as a Dodge around corners".*
That statement tells you nothing. Someone could tell you that and without
ever knowing what they're talking about you could automatically assume 
every Lexus model corners poorly compared to every Dodge.
Here's a better description.
*"A Lexus LS400 is not good at going around corners at high speeds like a Dodge Viper. 
You can keep a Dodge Viper planted to the road at high speeds around corners while a Lexus LS400 will lose traction."*

Keep those statements in mind when surfing these threads asking questions.
Because many WILL say one brand is better without ever giving a description of what that means.

I have experience with Allen Edmonds and Alden but not C&J.

I also have experience with Lexus LS400 and Dodge Viper.:icon_smile_big:


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I think you can consider both brands well made shoes. Now you have to decide which you like better. The difference between them is a bit like a 4 door buick to a maserati in my book but that is my take.

The Alden's are generally a bulbous last but really well made if you want that look in a shoe (the ICBM nuclear submarine look).

If you want a well made shoe with some style go to C&J.

Perry


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

Interesting analogy but I don't think your dealing with extremes between Alden and C&J like a Maserati and a Buick.

Which models are you comparing when you're describing a bulbous, submarine Alden and a well made C&J shoe with style?


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## //Michael (Jul 29, 2008)

Good topic!


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

//Michael said:


> Good topic!


Hang on.

I'm just getting started.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

I own shoes from both alden (2 calfskins, several shells) and C&J (1 calfskin and 2 shells). All these shoes were bought brand new and have been used regularly. I don't think that one is better than the other in terms of quality. For me personally, alden is better value because they fit me better and are easier to source. I also beleive that alden is excellent value for money - it is one brand I would not mind paying full retail for. Had I lived in england, my vote probably would have been for C&J. 

In addition to traditional english lasts, C&J does make shoes on a lot of shoes on sleeker, modern lasts to fit european tastes. Comparing that to classic american styling by alden without bringing in personal bias to style is next to impossible. Quality-wise both brands are awesome and on the same level in my opinion. Part of my appeal for alden is the finish; it looks like a shoe made by honest hardworking folks for honest hardworking folks  Saying that alden finishing is inferior to C&J, is again a matter of personal taste. I don't think either company cuts quarters making these shoes for us.

Insted of bickering with proof-less comparisons of intagible qualities, we should be happy that we have the freedom to choose what we want, per taste, availability and style.


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## bodybydada (Apr 28, 2009)

Crownship said:


> For example there's a member here that has a fair amount of knowledge about clothing for a person his age.
> He continually enters threads critisizing Allen Edmonds claiming they're poorly built shoes and don't last.
> Yet there are numerous members here that own Allen Edmonds that are more than twice this guys age.
> So I just wanted you to get a heads up that there's alot of nonsense on these threads and you'll have to do your due diligence and weed through the junk opinions.


While I appreciate your call to reason, I'm not sure what relevance age has to your argument. You appeal to experience--specifically with Allen Edmonds shoes, but it doesn't matter really; let's just say experience with the product in question--but then you inject age into your argument, as though everyone in the forum will know exactly what you are talking about. It put me off because it made no sense and, since your appeal was for the rational over the impassioned arguments of ignorant blowhards, I found it a little ironic.

The original question was are Alden shoes "equivalent" to crocket and jones. MOST everyone seems to agree that both are well made shoes. some have asserted that the style of alden is a bit staid, whereas crockett and jones are rather artful.


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## donk93953 (Feb 8, 2007)

I've owned AE and Alden (tried Alden after their high regard on this forum)...I'll stick with C&J.
Their style is timeless and I have shoes that I've owned for over, gulp, 25 years.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

bodybydada said:


> While I appreciate your call to reason, I'm not sure what relevance age has to your argument. You appeal to experience--specifically with Allen Edmonds shoes, but it doesn't matter really; let's just say experience with the product in question--but then you inject age into your argument, as though everyone in the forum will know exactly what you are talking about. It put me off because it made no sense and, since your appeal was for the rational over the impassioned arguments of ignorant blowhards, I found it a little ironic.
> 
> The original question was are Alden shoes "equivalent" to crocket and jones. MOST everyone seems to agree that both are well made shoes. some have asserted that the style of alden is a bit staid, whereas crockett and jones are rather artful.


What is confusing about Crownship's comments that you quoted. He cited a younger members claims of the shoddy construction and poor durability of Allen Edmonds footwear. Crownship simply pointed out that many participating in these fora, are wearing AE's that have endured regular use, longer that the cited critic has been around. He goes on to suggest we check things out for ourselves and form our own conclusions. His factual example supported his conclusions. Crownship's seems a reasonable, measured and readily understandable response to me. 

PS: I agree wholeheartedly with your closing thoughts on Alden vs Crockett and Jones shoes!


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

Srivats and donk,
both of you own AE, Alden and C&J. Other than the styles of the makers, 
have either of you noticed a difference in the way the calf feels or in
the degree it wrinkles or any other noticeable differences in the shoes workmanship?

Thanks


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## donk93953 (Feb 8, 2007)

I dont care for Aldens or AE....I wear a 9D (USA)...and the C&J's I have never had a problem with...I cannot say the same for Aldens or AE.
At my age, I look at any wrinkles as part of the beauty of life.....


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

donk93953 said:


> I dont care for Aldens or AE....I wear a 9D (USA)...and the C&J's I have never had a problem with...I cannot say the same for Aldens or AE.
> At my age, *I look at any wrinkles as part of the beauty of life*.....


Thank you. I agree with that about wrinkles, on shoes.

I didn't know people were so opposed to wrinkles on leather shoes until I started looking at this forum over a year ago.
It seems like many would rather have their shoes in a glass case like a museum piece and never used.
Regardless of who makes the shoes, all leather will wrinkle if used.


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## tomboys (Apr 21, 2009)

I think the real question here should be; does it really matter? Topics such as this one does nothing more than create a pi**ing match where everybody is defending/justifying their point of view.

At the end of the day, both manufacturers produce a high-quality product, period. Whether or not people rate the values equal, greater or lesser is based largely on personal preference. So, there's no real way to quantify the results.


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## josh gibson (Feb 24, 2007)

Hi,

I have two pairs of AEs nd are very happy with both. I saw the C and J Edgware on SF and fell in love with the look of the shoe. My only concern is I wear a size 13 American (I'm 6'1") and I am wondering if the elongated last would work for me. Thanks guys!


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

tomboys said:


> I think the real question here should be; does it really matter? Topics such as this one does nothing more than create a pi**ing match where everybody is defending/justifying their point of view.
> 
> At the end of the day, both manufacturers produce a high-quality product, period. Whether or not people rate the values equal, greater or lesser is based largely on personal preference. So, there's no real way to quantify the results.


Amen.

I own several pairs of both Alden and C&J benchgrade shoes, and am highly pleased with the whole lot of them.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Crownship said:


> Hang on.
> 
> I'm just getting started.


I'm waiting for you to claim that your Lobbs are no better than your Aldens.


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

I haven't seen this thread for one day and alot has transpired. 

I have seen CS' AE's on the "what footwear are you wearing today thread" and he does have beautifully maintained shoes.

In no way would I ever say that AE or Alden are inferior to any shoe. They are made differently. I own several Alden shoes in shell cordovan and have owned C&J as well as AE. I do not own any AE's now as I do not like the styling, the lasts, the design of the sole or the leathers used and the actual polished leather is not as appealing to me. 

I only will buy the Alden shell cordovans because of the uniqueness in the shoe itself. 

I prefer english made shoes. The best italian leather is used. the beveled or fiddled waist is a very nice piece of workmanship. Whether the shoe is fully lined, the quality of the heel construction, and the antique polishing or higher finish polishing is also important. The fit is also the most important. I have never been a fan of the AE fit. Alden is also somewhat tough to fit as the various lasts either are to wide or too narrow. C&J seem to have a more consistent fit for me with the various lasts that they use. But when it comes right down to it. If you rotate your shoes properly, and take care of them, you will not notice a big difference in the quality of the workmanship.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

tomboys said:


> I think the real question here should be; does it really matter? Topics such as this one does nothing more than create a pi**ing match where everybody is defending/justifying their point of view.
> 
> At the end of the day, both manufacturers produce a high-quality product, period. Whether or not people rate the values equal, greater or lesser is based largely on personal preference. So, there's no real way to quantify the results.


Agreed. While C&J may hold more favor on this forum, it's not like Alden is a mediocre shoe, even in comparison to the C&J. That's what the tone of some of the replies convey. That's sort of like saying a Brioni is a pile of junk compared to a Kiton. While one may be superior in some ways to the other, is it really necessary to compare two brands that are superior to 99.99% of the shoes out there?

The thought of Alden being the equivalent of a Buick sedan is downright laughable.


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

Doctor Damage said:


> I'm waiting for you to claim that your Lobbs are no better than your Aldens.


Ha HAA!

Well, I only own 2 pairs of Lobb loafers. I'm no expert there.
The only Alden loafers I own are shell tassels.

I could surely give my _expert_ opinion.

Of course I could start a story about how all the stitching on the John Lobb 
vamp began to frey after 2 wearings.

I wouldn't want to keep you waiting so here goes..
'My Lobbs are no better than my Aldens'.


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## Groover (Feb 11, 2008)

nolan50410 said:


> Agreed. While C&J may hold more favor on this forum


I don't believe they do on this forum. Certainly over on StyleForum the majority think C&J are the best thing since sliced bread. The C&J regular shoes are nothing special in terms of leather & construction, certainly no better than other manufacturers around that price point.

However, their Handgrade shoes, have much better leather and much neater construction. In my experience the leather is far smoother, has a much tighter grain, and 'feels' better. IIRC there's already a lot of threads about this.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

Crownship said:


> Srivats and donk,
> both of you own AE, Alden and C&J. Other than the styles of the makers,
> have either of you noticed a difference in the way the calf feels or in
> the degree it wrinkles or any other noticeable differences in the shoes workmanship?
> ...


CS, not really ... I haven't had the C&J calfskins as long as the aldens, but what I do know is the alden calfskins take an amazing patina with wear and polish as they age.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

donk93953 said:


> I look at any wrinkles as part of the beauty of life.....


I totally agree ... leather shoes look better with age and wear.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^+1...and then some!


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## sid1971 (May 12, 2009)

Ditto!


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## Jimmy Balantyne (Jan 1, 2017)

Why can't we all just get along?


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Jimmy Balantyne said:


> Why can't we all just get along?


Why can't we all just leave 10 year old threads to rest in peace?


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## winghus (Dec 18, 2014)

RogerP said:


> Why can't we all just leave 10 year old threads to rest in peace?


Can't get paid to astroturf if you don't post a lot. Gotta build up that post count before you start spamming whatever junk you're being paid to tout. That way you look like you're a real member of the community.


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## challer (Sep 4, 2008)

The best quality shoes for your are ones where the last feels like it was made for you. In my case that is Carmina Rain. I have numerous pairs in various styles. And they have made to order so I can get whatever I want.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

I enjoyed reading this ancient thread. I kept waiting for someone to say that both Alden and C&J are garbage wal-mart shoes because of gemming, and then I realized that this threat is so old that it pre-dates the gemming "controversy" that was ginned up later that same year. Oh, the memories!


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## prospero1b (Mar 10, 2008)

This is a very strange thread.

I guess most shoe brands have their own particular qualities that attract the loyalty of their adherents.

I've long been a fan of C&J and, indeed, bought a new pair of Durhams from the larger Jermyn Street shop on Saturday (a saving of £65 in the sale).

You buy what you feel suits you, and, at the end of the day, for me it's C&J.

An illustration: my fancy was taken by the Loake Levens, a dark brown calfskin loafer from the top-end 1880 Legacy range. I'd previously thought of buying the C&J Merton, but the Loake was £265, as against £435 for the Merton. And, so I thought, a top of the range Loake must surely be comparable to a benchgrade C&J.

And then fate intervened. I found a brand new pair of Loake Levens for £105 on eBay. I'd be daft not to, I reasoned. So I snapped them up.

And I was, truth to tell, a bit disappointed. The finish wasn't there. The leather wasn't as good. It was just... ok. I'll wear them, of course. But I won't ... cherish them., as I would the Mertons.

And I will buy the Mertons some day. I know I will. Because C&Js suit me. And Loakes, to be honest, don't.

So if you like C&Js too, just keep buying them. Similarly if you like Aldens. And also if you like Loakes.

Because we are all different. And that's a really good thing. Isn't it?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I can’t decide what is more unusual. Constant threads about whether X is better than Y or X v. Y threads that are resurrected and argued afresh. 

Who was that Pope that was dug up and put on trial?


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