# Saphir on Franco's



## epl0517 (Apr 7, 2005)

Francos sells some nice products, and are as far as I know the only US seller of sapphire shoe care products. But it's impossible to figure out what they are selling from their web site, which sometimes gives no information at all about what a product is or does.

Questions:

1) Some products are labelled saphir, some Medaille D'Or, and some both. This would be fine if there were no overlap, but some creams are labelled Saphir only, some Saphir Medaille D'Or. What's the difference? (I'm using the labels in the photo. The labels that the web site uses are hopelessy inconsistent.)

2) The Saphir Medaille D'or Cream products come in several colors, including white. Is this really a white shoe cream (which I have never seen), or this not a shoe cream as the term is normally used.

3) The Saphir Medaille D'or Cream products have no color labels. Which ones would be correct for black, brown, burgundy, and tan shoes?

4) The Saphire creams (not Medaille D'or Cream) have color names that don't correspond clearly to the normal names for shoe colors, as listed above. Would I use red for a burgundy shoe? Does hazelnut mean tan?


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

I've presumed that "medaille d'or" simply meant that Saphir won a gold medal in 1925, like how "A-1" supposedly got its name. None of the small jars of Saphir cream seems to say "medaille d'or," while the larger ones, with larger labels, all do. I'd guess, and this is just a guess, that's it's simply a matter of space, or of logo design. I certainly haven't noticed any difference in the creams.

The smaller jars of cream all have color labels, don't they? I'd guess the colors are consistent in the larger sizes. If you need anything more specific, you might try contacting Franco's. They're good about recommending the appropriate color.


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## epl0517 (Apr 7, 2005)

DocHolliday said:


> If you need anything more specific, you might try contacting Franco's. They're good about recommending the appropriate color.


Do they respond to your e-mail messages? They surely don't respond to mine.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Franco's is not a high-tech shop by any means. I'm surprised they have as much stuff online as they do. I'd suggest calling. Or, barring that, try PMing Rider here or at SF. He knows all about their stock.


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## jimbob (Jun 24, 2006)

*Saphir*

Twenty years in the Navy and all I knew was Kiwi. Later I found Lincoln and it was a big step up from Kiwi. After a couple of moths using Saphir It seems to be a quantum leap over the others. It shines beautifully and is easy to apply. I'll never use anything else. Just wish they had a cordovan color wax and my collection would be complete.


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## epl0517 (Apr 7, 2005)

DocHolliday said:


> Franco's is not a high-tech shop by any means. I'm surprised they have as much stuff online as they do. I'd suggest calling. Or, barring that, try PMing Rider here or at SF. He knows all about their stock.


I called, and placed an order. Unfortunately, the representative I spoke with knew almost nothing about the Saphir products or even shoe care in general. The first thing she did was suggest that I use the web site, which, as discussed earlier, use rather useless.

Ultimately, in addition to the other usual colors, she sold me "light brown" for my tan shoes. This would work fine no doubt for cream, but I'm skeptical that this will be acceptable for the wax, which I will need to cover cuts and scrapes.

I suppose I could contact Ron Rider, but as I understand he no longer represents Franco's.

Do any of you use a Saphir wax on tan shoes? Do you know what the appropriate color is named?


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## ChriO (Feb 23, 2006)

epl0517 said:


> 1) Some products are labelled saphir, some Medaille D'Or, and some both. This would be fine if there were no overlap, but some creams are labelled Saphir only, some Saphir Medaille D'Or. What's the difference?


I asked the same question a while ago in a German shoe forum https://www.newsaboutshoes.de/showthread.php?t=194 - a representative of Saphir Germany is taking part there.

The main ingredients of the Crème 1925 (big jar, Medaille D'or) and Crème Surfine (small jar) are identical: beeswax and carnauba wax solved in turpentine, mink oil, neatsfoot oil and lanolin. While Crème 1925 contains 38-40% wax there is onle 32% wax in Crème Surfine. Crème Surfine claims to be beeswax based, its composition is probably different: Crème Surfine smells strongly of beeswax while Crème 1925 does not.



> 2) The Saphir Medaille D'or Cream products come in several colors, including white. Is this really a white shoe cream (which I have never seen), or this not a shoe cream as the term is normally used.


As far as I know there is no white Crème 1925, only neutral - it looks white in the jar though. There are other other products that have the same white look: Saphir Renovateur, a cleaner and conditioner for standard leather, neutral as well and the Special Reptile.
Crème 1925 is a classic product that covers the classic colours, 
Crème Surfine is available in white and more than 60 other colours. That should take care of most colour problems and create a few as well. 



> 3) The Saphir Medaille D'or Cream products have no color labels. Which ones would be correct for black, brown, burgundy, and tan shoes?


The colour of Creme 1925 is labelled on top of the lid (see link above), the small stickers that you can see but not read in some of Franco's pictures. The shop's descriptions do not help either. I would write them a mail and order black, burgundy, light and dark brown. There is a medium brown as well.



> 4) The Saphire creams (not Medaille D'or Cream) have color names that don't correspond clearly to the normal names for shoe colors, as listed above. Would I use red for a burgundy shoe? Does hazelnut mean tan?


The problem of the 65 different colours - hazelnut might be tan, but since there is a light brown in the Crème 1925 line it might be another shade of light brown. My jar of Crème 1925 for tan is labelled: Marron Clair, Light Brown, Marron Claro, Teja, Hellbraun. Hellbraun is the standard German word for tan.

The Crème 1925 burgundy is labelled: Bordeaux, Granate, Weinrot, Burgundy.

There is a least one other shade of red in the Crème Surfine line, labeled Rouge Hermès, Hermes Red, Rojo Hermes, Hermesrot. There might be others. Just order Burgundy and you will be fine.

Edit: I took too long to answer  I use the light brown wax as well, without problems. I think it is impossible to hide every cut and scrape on light brown shoes if you don't use a product that really covers (in the sense of masking) the surface. Saphir has these products as well, but I wouldn't use it on the leather of good shoes. Give me a moment, I am going to look for the product's name.

Found it: One possible product is Crème Renovatrice, it's described as a colour intensive, abrasion resistant product for the correction of colour distortions, scratches and abrasions. It comes in units of 25 grams. It stays elastic and doesn't flake off. - That doesn't sound appealing to me. It is definitely not a product I would experiment with without dire need. Might be interesting for the edges of leather soles though.


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## epl0517 (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks ChriO. I'm glad there are people with such strong multilingual skills. So it would appear that some of the confusion is owing to language, as the color name for tan somehow was translated into English as "light brown".

Regarding the 1925 and Surfine, I still find some confusion. As I understand, shoe cream normally is something that penetrates and nourishes the leather, helps add to the patination, and is usually water soluble, whereas wax is used for shining, touching up, and waterproofing. But these "cremes" have heavy amounts of water repellent ingredients. It's not clear which of these, if either, is appropriate for the nourishing. 

I also find the ingredients of these cremes interesting. In my experience, mink oil, neatsfoot oil and lanolin are all noted for having a darkening effect on leather. Has anyone who has used these products found they do or don't affect the color of the shoe?


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

jimbob said:


> Twenty years in the Navy and all I knew was Kiwi. Later I found Lincoln and it was a big step up from Kiwi. After a couple of moths using Saphir It seems to be a quantum leap over the others. It shines beautifully and is easy to apply. I'll never use anything else. Just wish they had a cordovan color wax and my collection would be complete.


The Saphir wax (in cans; not the creams) in Mahogany is close and is what I use on burgundy shoes.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

epl0517 said:


> I called, and placed an order. Unfortunately, the representative I spoke with knew almost nothing about the Saphir products or even shoe care in general. The first thing she did was suggest that I use the web site, which, as discussed earlier, use rather useless.
> 
> Ultimately, in addition to the other usual colors, she sold me "light brown" for my tan shoes. This would work fine no doubt for cream, but I'm skeptical that this will be acceptable for the wax, which I will need to cover cuts and scrapes.
> 
> ...


First, the few times I've called, I've asked for Mark (that's Mark Ambrogi--Franco's son, I believe), and he's been very helpful. As for tan shoes, I'm not sure why you feel that the light brown wouldn't work well. It's what I use--after applying a similar-colored cream--to all my light brown shoes. Perhaps by "tan," you mean a color that is even lighter than that. I have the hazelnut wax that looks yellow in the can, but is really a very light brown.


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## epl0517 (Apr 7, 2005)

Roger said:


> First, the few times I've called, I've asked for Mark (that's Mark Ambrogi--Franco's son, I believe), and he's been very helpful. As for tan shoes, I'm not sure why you feel that the light brown wouldn't work well. It's what I use--after applying a similar-colored cream--to all my light brown shoes. Perhaps by "tan," you mean a color that is even lighter than that. I have the hazelnut wax that looks yellow in the can, but is really a very light brown.


I generally consider light brown to mean chestnut, which is darker and redder than tan.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Roger said:


> Perhaps by "tan," you mean a color that is even lighter than that. I have the hazelnut wax that looks yellow in the can, but is really a very light brown.


Similar in function, perhaps, to the Kiwi Light Tan, which is also yellow in appearance, and can be used on the whole spectrum of browns without materially changing their color.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

epl0517 said:


> I generally consider light brown to mean chestnut, which is darker and redder than tan.


 I agree that chestnut is darker and redder than tan, but not that most 'light brown' creams and waxes are chestnut in color. For creams, I really like the Collonil line (the A-E special polish, I think they call it--the stuff in tubes--is rebranded Collonil), and their "light brown" definitely is not chestnut. Nor is the Saphir light brown wax (the stuff in cans) chestnut. As you have noted, 'chestnut' definitely has a reddish tint to it. In your two C&J pictures, you can see the difference between the Finsbury and the Clifford. Most 'light brown' products I've seen--whether cream or wax--are the shade of the Clifford.


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## ChriO (Feb 23, 2006)

epl0517 said:


> In my experience, mink oil, neatsfoot oil and lanolin are all noted for having a darkening effect on leather. Has anyone who has used these products found they do or don't affect the color of the shoe?


I have a pair of Grenson footmasters in tan that I treat with Crème 1925 and the wax, both in light brown. I bought these shoes in February 2006 and wear them frequently.
I am pretty sure that there hasn't been noticeable darkening. On Monday I will take some photos: Of the shoes and the contents of wax and cream, both in the tin/jar and on white paper and post it here.


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

ChriO said:


> I am pretty sure that there hasn't been noticeable darkening. On Monday I will take some photos: Of the shoes and the contents of wax and cream, both in the tin/jar and on white paper and post it here.


Hope you do find the time to do that, it will be appreciated by many of us.

BTW, your earlier resume of Saphir products belongs in The Great Book of Great Posts for these forums,:icon_cheers: thank you for taking the time and trouble.

F.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

I agree with Franko; nice post, ChriO--very useful, exactly what can make this forum so helpful to us all.

I had a question that someone may be able to answer. There's a product that I have always associated with Saphir (probably because I got it from Franco's), but I don't think is really made by them, _Crema Alpina_. Ron Rider once recommended it for conditioning leather (mainly moisturizing and keeping supple) before polishing. I'm wondering whether it is basically the same product (or at least has the same function) as the Saphir Renovateur. Does anyone know? And presumably the Renovateur is not the same thing as the Renovatrice you've described above, ChriO. Correct?

My polishing regimen these days consists of three phases: (a) cleaning/conditioning (after a thorough wiping down with a damp cloth and a brushing) with a leather conditioner (like the Crema Alpina), (b) an application of appropriately-colored cream, with this being thoroughly rubbed in, left to penetrate more, and then brushed (mainly for color restoration in scuffs, etc., and moisturization) and finally (c) polishing with a product with wax (the stuff in cans, rather than bottles) to produce a better shine, but mainly for protection against the elements. I've been using many of the Saphir products and really like them. They smell so much better than the Stoddard's Solvent-based polishes like Kiwi!


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

epl0517 said:


> Francos sells some nice products, and are as far as I know the only US seller of sapphire shoe care products. But it's impossible to figure out what they are selling from their web site, which sometimes gives no information at all about what a product is or does.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


Sorry for coming into this so late......

#1 - The company is called Avel, and Saphir is the brand name for a majority of it's shoe care products. 'Medaille d'Or' is it's top range, and is the terpentine based products, which are available in the classic colors. 'Saphir Creme Surfine' is the more broad range, and is a water based cream....not terpentine as stated below. There are numerous versions available to agents from this line, and when I agreed to be the agent here, I set it up in the same way we did with Martegani.....I buy the merchandise flat out, take a mark to pay expences and try to make a small profit, and re-sell to retailers. In this case, I did not 'represent' the entire range of the factory, just what I decided to sell here.

-----------side note: It is really fine stuff, but I made 2 errors here. One, I completely miscalculated the freight charges (little tins and jars really add up in weight when packaged...same thing I did with Crema Alpina) and, two, assumed that retailers here would want to sell very fine, unique products. Didn't happen...they arrived too expensive, as most of the better shops simply give away the polish, so they were not real interested in paying a premium. And, since most of the better distribution for shoes now are clothing shops, the result there was they really didn't want shoe polish around in their environments. Last blunder was the fact that I didn't realize I had to have Material Safety Handling Data Sheets available, and the first shipment got caught up in Customs while I had to have samples pulled and sent to the EPA for these tests...which cost money. So, for the ingredients, this is how we know...and is the same as the owner of the factory represents them....perhaps the German agent has a different version of the Saphir creams. In the end, Mark at Franco's bailed me out and bought the entire stock, as they sold it well, and that is where it is. They are in the process of updating the website, and I am going to try to help them out with this, so I will try to look at the Saphir page next week and re-do that as well.

#2 - the MDO does not come, typically, in white.....Saphir does, but not MDO. There is 'incolore', or neutral, but not white.

#3 - MDO comes in the classic colors....Black, Dark Brown, Mid Brown, Light Brown, Fawn (British Tan, for lack of a better description), Acajou (Burgundy), Navy, Forest Green and Neutral. The wax comes in the same, with the exception of the Forest Green. This factory also accepts custom color orders, so you might well find more options in Europe, or on some of the brands that they work for (just about all of the private label work for EU/UK manufacturers is Avel, from what I can see)....I think this is how we came upon the Forest Green, as I always sold that Olive/Green color well at Franco's retail stores when I was there all the time.

#4 - Saphir creams come in a huge range of colors....they probably add more all the time, as well. Every factory has it's own lingo for color names, so it's hard to assume a polish manufacturer in Spain will take a sampling of shoe manufacturers and concur on the color names and label as such....and a store like Franco's has a set program of colors in their computer receiving/bar coding system and will not pay a programmer to change them to correctly label a tin of shoe polish....they do their best with what they have.

I thought they set up the pictures to match the color someone would order, but I will check for sure and see how they have it...a quick check here seems to show that the creams are obvious, but the wax not so much. I'll help them get it straight, but in the meantime simply PM me a list of needs and I can reply Monday, if you wish.

Base Point - Uses:

Cream MDO - I use this in the shop when I need to impart alot of color on a shoe....it's actually pretty strong stuff and should be used sparingly until you see how much color absorbs into the shoe you are working with. It goes a long way.....covers better than any other cream I have used, and fills scuffs very well.

Wax MDO - smoother to work with than the cream, it covers well, but does not leave as much color as the cream, or a polish like Lincoln. Much easier to use, however...and builds up a protective layer very quickly. If you use a different method, however, it works wonders.....I spread the wax with my hands - not a rag - and 'melt' it into the leather. If you leave the top open, you will get the wax to dry out a bit, and I break it into small pieces and simply rub into the uppers with my hands. I use a vinyl glove, obviously, but this really works the best...and is a great way to finish/clean up sole edges and heels. If you prefer to apply in the normal way, then it's good, but not as good as Lincoln.

Saphir Creme Surfine - base creams that I use more than anything else.....the colors available are good to mix with eachother, or the available colors will cover just about any upper color. They don't get as much color into the leather as the MDO, but are much easier to use as multiple coats are preferred by me anyway. It's clean, simple, and you can't screw anything up with them. Every shoe I do in refinishing gets at least 4 coats of the basic Neutral cream throughout the process.

Renoveteur - a milky cleaner/conditioner, this is very good to use on a regular basis to protect the finish on any decent shoe [note - protecting the finish is what these products do....your not going to do anything with shoe care products to protect or condition chrome tanned leather, it's the finish you want to protect or enhance. Veg tanned hiking boots, or pull-up leathers, or something like that you can use the grease (graisse) for.]. I use this regularly as a mixing base (simply mix in a paper cup 30% Renoveteur and 70% cream) which gets more water resistance on the upper as well. This is also the principle way to finish off Shell Cordovan....regular cream (forget about wax, IMO) has a tendency to roll off, while this allows for nice coverage. Finally, you can use this product as a cleaner if you rub very briskly.

Crema Alpina - not made by Avel, this is a beeswax emulsion that does a nice job of coating the upper, cleaning build up off, and takes a higher shine than the Renoveteur....a more refined version of the same stuff, if that makes sense. It is much more fluid than the other, but I prefer it to all other bases/cleaners/conditioners that I have tried. Franco's has ordered more, I understand.

hope that helps.....please PM if any other questions and I will try to answer as best as time allows.

Ron


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

^^^Great, Ron. Very helpful. I really like the Crema Alpina, but am running out. As you've noted, Franco's say they've ordered more. Sure hope it arrives soon....


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## epl0517 (Apr 7, 2005)

Thank Ron for getting back to us, and for elevating us from ignorance.

Lacking German-language skills, I employed the services of Google Translate to decipher the Germany representative's post. It appears he has unambiguously stated that the Saphir wax is turpentine based, and it also appears that he says that it and MOD wax are very similar products. So it would appear that the products sold there are different, or that he was flat out wrong.

If you are making it your business (or it already is your business) to update the Franco's web site, you should also note that the MOD creams are a mess. Navy appears to represented. Two colors appear to be represented twice, they could be light and medium brown. Or they could be tan and burgundy. The names are not visible in the photographs, nor given in the descriptions. From a digital photograph, its almost impossible to distinguish. In any case, black is clearly absent altogether.

You've also sparked my curiosity about cordovan care. Alden insists that wax is to be used, and the cream or conditioner are to be avoided absolutely, which appears to be opposite from your suggestion. What regimen would you suggest for cordovan, and do you have any clue why Alden says as it does?


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## rider (Jan 8, 2004)

epl0517 said:


> Thank Ron for getting back to us, and for elevating us from ignorance.
> 
> Lacking German-language skills, I employed the services of Google Translate to decipher the Germany representative's post. It appears he has unambiguously stated that the Saphir wax is turpentine based, and it also appears that he says that it and MOD wax are very similar products. So it would appear that the products sold there are different, or that he was flat out wrong.
> 
> ...


Heh - how do you think I feel about the Martegani page.....

As for Shell....it's like anything - we all have our methods. I've never spoken with anyone at Alden, so I can't say why they say what they do....you'd have to ask them. I use a mix of Renoveteur and cream, apply with a bristle brush, brush out and then use some old Bemberg lining I have to clean up and shine. I also use some Crema Alpina, usually, as a finishing step. Works for me.....


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Roger said:


> The Saphir wax (in cans; not the creams) in Mahogany is close and is what I use on burgundy shoes.


Saphir has a burgundy wax.


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## jimbob (Jun 24, 2006)

*Saphir burgundy*

^^^ I don't see it on Franco's web site. I'd be happy to find some. Let me know where.

-Jim-


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## epl0517 (Apr 7, 2005)

Received my package today. Proof that the salesperson or packager was clueless is that I received A-E conditioner/cleaner along with my saphir waxes and creams. I was wondering if I could get help deciding to what degree what I received is what would work best with my traditionally-colored shoes.

Received:
- black MDO wax: obviously fine
- neutral MDO wax: obviously fine
- mahagony MDO wax: looks very light and red for burgundy shoes. Is there a darker alternative?
- light brown MDO wax: looks suitable for tan shoes, but Ron says a "fawn" product is available? Which suitable for tan shoes? Confused.
- dark brown MDO wax: definitely lighter than a basic brown shoe. (I generally consider the basic shoe color to be medium brown. Some makers, such as Alden, sometimes use a very dark brown, which I would call dark brown. Perhaps my idea of medium brown is their idea of dark brown?)
- black #01 MDO cream: obviously fine
- hermes red #12 MDO cream: like wax, this is red, not burgundy. Is a true burgundy available?
- light brown #03 MDO cream: A pinch darker than tan. Perhaps I should try "fawn".
medium brown #37 MDO cream: like wax, looks to light for basic brown shoes. Would dark brown be more suitable?


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## nicad2000 (Sep 14, 2007)

epl0517 said:


> Received my package today. Proof that the salesperson or packager was clueless is that I received A-E conditioner/cleaner along with my saphir waxes and creams. I was wondering if I could get help deciding to what degree what I received is what would work best with my traditionally-colored shoes.
> 
> Received:
> - black MDO wax: obviously fine
> ...


I woudn't use the mahogany wax for burgundy shoes - as a reference I use it for my chili colored AE's and it works quite well. As mentioned above, if anyone has a source for the MDO burgundy I would love to know about it.


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## D2008 (Apr 3, 2008)

New member here, and I've been following this thread with some interest, as I'd like to purchase some Saphir products myself. Paul's Shoe Accessories seems to offer the Mahogany (Acajou) color. 

And no, I'm not affiliated with them in any way! :icon_smile:


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## william76 (Aug 11, 2006)

rider said:


> Sorry for coming into this so late......
> 
> #1 - The company is called Avel, and Saphir is the brand name for a majority of it's shoe care products. 'Medaille d'Or' is it's top range, and is the terpentine based products, which are available in the classic colors. 'Saphir Creme Surfine' is the more broad range, and is a water based cream....not terpentine as stated below. There are numerous versions available to agents from this line, and when I agreed to be the agent here, I set it up in the same way we did with Martegani.....I buy the merchandise flat out, take a mark to pay expences and try to make a small profit, and re-sell to retailers. In this case, I did not 'represent' the entire range of the factory, just what I decided to sell here.
> 
> ...


This post kicks ass.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

D2008 said:


> New member here, and I've been following this thread with some interest, as I'd like to purchase some Saphir products myself. Paul's Shoe Accessories seems to offer the Mahogany (Acajou) color.
> 
> And no, I'm not affiliated with them in any way! :icon_smile:


A big +1 (maybe +10) for Paul Bolten. I have e-mailed him with questions a couple of times now and have, each time, received a very prompt and full, lengthy, interested, and informative reply. He seems like a guy with excellent interpersonal skills (and his English-language skills are good) and a desire to provide customer service. By contrast, the last two times I've called Franco's (and haven't been able to talk to Mark), I've been given the run-around by seemingly clueless employees. After two calls now, I still don't have a straight answer to the availability of Crema Alpina. A month or so ago I was told they were sold out, but that it would probably be re-ordered. Yesterday, I was told that no one seemed to know much about this product and that he (the rep) thought that they were dropping it. This is crap customer service, indicating little interest in satisfying customers, and I will probably move my purchases of Saphir to Paul Bolten in the future. He carries the full line of everything Ron mentioned in his post.



nicad2000 said:


> I woudn't use the mahogany wax for burgundy shoes....


I'm surprised to hear this opinion. The mahogany is actually quite close to burgundy, and I have used it for ages on burgundy shoes with no noticeable change in color. I do, however, start with a burgundy cream and then apply the mahogany wax.


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## nicad2000 (Sep 14, 2007)

Roger said:


> I'm surprised to hear this opinion. The mahogany is actually quite close to burgundy, and I have used it for ages on burgundy shoes with no noticeable change in color. I do, however, start with a burgundy cream and then apply the mahogany wax.


I'm glad to hear that you've had good luck with it - my aversion to using Mahogany was that it always seemed a fair bit lighter than the burgundy I was wanting to polish. Maybe the burgundy cream was the missing step... Regardless, I really enjoy the finish the Mahogany gives to the AE Chili (try it out sometime!)


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

nicad2000 said:


> I'm glad to hear that you've had good luck with it - my aversion to using Mahogany was that it always seemed a fair bit lighter than the burgundy I was wanting to polish. Maybe the burgundy cream was the missing step... Regardless, I really enjoy the finish the Mahogany gives to the AE Chili (try it out sometime!)


It's not identical to burgundy and has seemed a little more towards the brown end of the red-brown spectrum than burgundy, but not too much more. I'm currently looking into locating the actual burgundy wax, and, if I can find it, I'll report back.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

OK, I'm reporting back. I sent Paul Bolten an e-mail, and here's his response to my question about a burgundy wax by Saphir:

Right again: Saphir/Avel/Md'O are the same, but quality and products are different... If you want Burgundy, you can only get this from Saphir pate deluxe (9 basic colours) since Md'O has only acajou which is not the same colour... When I have to do a gloss on a burgundy shoes, well instead of using MdO I use Saphir, it works out the same, but takes me a little more time to obtain the same quality of gloss... And also proportionally more wax!​
So...it appears that there _is_ a Saphir burgundy paste wax, but it's found in a different Saphir line than the Saphir Medaille D'Or. Evidently, this other line is Saphir's Pate Deluxe.

I have to say that I definitely have not sorted out all the Saphir/Avel lines or products at this point, and would appreciate anyone straightening all of this out. Rider and ChriO, back to you! :icon_smile_wink:


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## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

rider said:


>


I love that middle pair of winged double monk straps.

Cordovan


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## Dmax (Jan 9, 2006)

Roger said:


> I have to say that I definitely have not sorted out all the Saphir/Avel lines or products at this point, and would appreciate anyone straightening all of this out. Rider and ChriO, back to you!


I just thought I would add some more information that I have gathered to what Ron has already graciously provided.

Avel/Saphir markets several lines of leather, fabric and furniture care products under the Saphir label. The main line of shoe care products consists of paste wax (Pate De Luxe) and shoe cream (Creme Surfine). Then there is the premium, more expensive line of shoe care products called Medaille D'Or, which also has a paste wax product and shoe cream product. Both product lines are based on beeswax, turpentine and carnauba wax. Supposedly, Medaille D'or line has a higher beeswax content than the main Saphir line. Subjectivly, it appears denser and smells a little different.

Medaile D'Or comes in black colored tins and jars. It consists of 10 colors of Cirage Pate Deluxe Medaille D'Or (the paste wax product available in 50ml and 100ml metal tins) and 10 colors of Creme Medaile D'Or (the shoe cream product comes in 100ml glass jars).

All Saphir products carry a label with a color code number and color name in several languages. The color names and color code stay the same between different Saphir product lines.

The Cirage Pate Deluxe Medaille D'Or (paste wax) is available in the following colors:

Jaun Cire (color code )/ yellow
Cognac (color code 10)/a shade of medium brown with some yellow tint, 100ml tin only
Marron Clair (03)/ light brown
Marron Moyen (37)/ medium brown
Marron Fonce (05)/ very dark brown
Acajou (09)/Mahogany, medium brown with some red
Havane (34)/Light Tabacco brown, 100ml tin only
Bleu Marine (06)/ Navy
Noir (01)/ Black
Incolore (02) Neutral wax with no color pigment

Creme Medaile D'Or (shoe cream) comes in the following colors:

Marron Clair (03)/ light brown
Marron Moyen (37)/ medium brown
Marron Fonce (05)/ very dark brown
Acajou (09)/Mahogany, medium brown with some red
Noir (01)/ Black
Bordeaux (08)/ also listed as Burgundy on the can, I find it funny how Bordeaux is translated as Burngundy, they should have wrote "Red Wine" 
Hermes Rouge (12)/ dark red but not quite burgundy
Vert Fonce (20)/ Dark green
Bleu Marine (06)/ Navy
Incolore (02) Neutral wax with no color pigment

There are a few other products in the Medaile D'Or line which Ron mentioned already:

Renovateur - leather conditioner, may darken light leathers a bit.
Graisse - 15% Seal fat based leather conditioner-water reppelant, has an assertive "marine" smell that diminishes over time.
Special Reptile - conditioner for exotic leathers, such as crocodile, lizard, snake, etc.
There are also other products like Nappa leather conditioners, leather restrorers, suede cleaners etc.

Saphir main shoe care line consists of Pate De Luxe (paste wax, 50ml and 100ml tins, 9 or maybe more colors) and Creme Surfine (shoe cream, 50ml glass jars, approx. 74 colors).

Pate De Luxe (wax) is available in the following colors (maybe more):

Jaun Cire (color code )/ yellow
Marron Clair (03)/ light brown
Marron Moyen (37)/ medium brown
Marron Fonce (05)/ very dark brown
Acajou (09)/Mahogany, medium brown with some red
Noir (01)/ Black
Bordeaux (08)/ also listed as Burgundy on the can
Incolore (02) Neutral wax with no color pigment

I am not going to list all the Creme Surfine colors since there are at least 74 of them but it includes all of the colors available in other lines I listed above as well some unusual colors like silver, white or green apple, etc. There are also at least a dozen of different shades of brown, including all the brown colors from other lines. A few more brown colors listed below.

Havane Clair (36)/ Light Tobacco Brown
Havane Moyen (35)/ Medium Tobacco Brown
Fawn (19)/ yellowish tan
Noisette (38)/ Hazelnut

Hope this information proves usefull to someone.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

Dmax, just great! Thanks for your efforts. It is starting to make sense....


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