# Smart loafers with tuxedo? Advice?



## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Are smart black loafers such as these, acceptable to wear with a tux?



The tux trousers have a black stripe down the leg. I will be wearing a bow tie and cummerbund.

The occasion is an annual, office ('moulin rouge' themed) Christmas party.

The loafers have fully black soles and are a plain leather finish.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

I wouldn't.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I really, really wouldn't.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

If they're really smart, they'll beg you to choose other shoes to go with your tuxedo.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Not with a tux


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

The only non-lace up shoes that are acceptable with a tux are pumps and I think that they would probably be inappropriate for a wedding unless it was being held in a residence. I'm not the resident expert on pump propriety so the last part of that could be inaccurate.

I am *sure* that loafers are inappropriate with formal dress.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

If you're a 7.5 UK are available (NFI, etc.).


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I am so glad I asked you guys first []

As for the 'pumps'... if I wore anything like that in England, I would get thrown out and beaten up in less than 30 seconds! [:0]


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

If you want to be casual, formal slippers from Belgian Shoes are perfectly appropriate. For example, 




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Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I am shocked... I really am!

Mens shoes with a bow and a big heel?

Is it just an American thing or something?

I don't mean to sound rude... but you do know I'm a guy at a black-tie event, right?


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## pejsek (Jan 25, 2005)

I'll just take this opportunity to (gently) register my continuing bemusement at the search for alternative formal footwear options. How many threads have there been along the lines of, Can I wear these (a brogue, wholecut, captoe, loafers, really black hiking boots, etc. etc.) with a tux? Just what is it about the pump that strikes such abject terror in the hearts of men? 
I wonder what those absinthe swilling denizens of the MR wore on their feet anyway.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Check this dude out - I will follow shoes along those lines now



Thoughts on broguing in such shoes?

Or would something like this be most appropriate?


Thanks fellas


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Pumps are the oldest item of men's clothing that are still worn. They date to the 17th century, if I recall correctly. 

If you look around your own Prince Charles' web site, there's a full body photo of him in black tie, wearing opera pumps. 

Of course, he has a bodyguard at all times. If you don't, wear patent leather oxfords. 



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Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

Why are the shoes in question called "smart"?

(As you probably know by now, the answer to yur question is "No").

Black pumps have been a part of the formal ensamble for a while (and not just in USA). Wearing taselled loafers for business seems to be more of a "American thing".

And, yes we are aware you are a guy. There have been discussions about formal shoes before, and some posters do think that they are "too much". If you have a pair of nice black closed-lacing shoes, just polish them weel, and you'll be fine...

And welcome to the forum.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> I am shocked... I really am!
> 
> ...


It's a traditional formal wear and I'm quite sure it originated in Europe not the US. In fact, all of the makers of pumps that I can think of are European.

Anyway, we've established that you are not ready for pumps so let's get into what is appropriate lace up footwear. Patent or highly polished black leather lace ups are in order. Try to avoid broguing or other ornamentation. Plain toe is best.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

I'm shocked! Really!
That you are shocked by a formal shoe.



Why not just toss on a pair of trainers and be done with it.

David

Everything went to hell when we let California have its own pizza.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

The pictured "dude" is OK with his oxfords. The pictured derbys are inappropriate. 


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Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

https://www.shoemall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?family_id=1792

These would work.

David

Everything went to hell when we let California have its own pizza.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> I am so glad I asked you guys first []
> 
> As for the 'pumps'... if I wore anything like that in England, I would get thrown out and beaten up in less than 30 seconds! [:0]


I totally understand you not wanting to wear pumps. I never wear mine to formal events in my hometown (I'm from Alabama) but save them for events in New York or LA.

If I were to wear them at home, the entire town would think that I had "switched teams."

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Will_
> 
> Of course, he (Prince Charles) has a bodyguard at all times. If you don't, wear patent leather oxfords.


Very good point! 

Sorry guys, your (rather foppish) pumps are certainly nice shoes, but I will stick to the Oxfords if that's ok. [^]

And thanks for the welcome


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

This type of slipper is also acceptable though they are really just pumps without the bows. They are less feminine looking. I think that they are only appropriate at a home though I could be wrong.







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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Will_
> 
> The pictured "dude" is OK with his oxfords. The pictured derbys are inappropriate


Those Derby's are inappropriate?

Seriously - how come? I'm really interest to know, because I genuinely thought they'd look good with a tux, such as here

If they really are simply 'no-go', then thank you for the education


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Do these fit the bill?

or these



Thanks again for the guidance, guys


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

In the 80s I saw a lot of black tassel loafers with black tie. A very southern thanng.

In the late 80s I saw a lot of blacg Gucci loafers with the bit. A very NY think.

Lately, amongst the Chicago folks I know, I see a lot of patent leather oxfords. Considered correct but nasty looking as the day is long.

I like monogramed velvet slippers. Black from S&H. Don't care if they should only be worn at home. They look a lot better than patent leather lace ups. Someday I'll get the courage up to go with the Opera Pumps but I'm not there yet.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> Do these fit the bill?
> 
> Thanks again for the guidance, guys


Most would say to avoid captoes but some will tell you they will work. I would still look for a plain toe or if you want something a little different a whole-cut would work.

Plain toe:

https://www.pediwear.co.uk/detail.php?stock_ID=458

Whole cut:

https://www.pediwear.co.uk/detail.php?stock_ID=458

These are good shoes and not too expensive. If price is not an issue, I can suggest some that are much better.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

I just looked at Marks and Spencer's formal shoe selection (after seeing that's where your pictures were from). Almost all of those shoes are horrible and have no business at a formal affair. One of the pairs was brown, WTF! They also showed some composite bottom boots. I would have to beat someone if they showed up to my wedding in a pair of Clarks.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks rabbit - those are nice shoes

Your advice on the capped toe is appreciated. I will consider...

I'd be very interested to know what you'd recommend if price was not an issue?


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> I just looked at Marks and Spencer's formal shoe selection (after seeing that's where your pictures were from). Almost all of those shoes are horrible and have no business at a formal affair. One of the pairs was brown, WTF! They also showed some composite bottom boots. I would have to beat someone if they showed up to my wedding in a pair of Clarks.


Thank you for viewing the M&S selection! 

You're right, their range is certainly not great.

But I have one day left to purchase, M&S are located just round the corner from my office, and I have some M&S gift vouchers to use too!

Arghhh! [xx(]


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> Thanks rabbit - those are nice shoes
> 
> ...


Edward Green Bespokes if it was absolutely no issue.

If you just mean that you are willing to spend a tidy sum, I would suggest these C&J handgrades.

https://www.pediwear.co.uk/detail.php?stock_ID=1009

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are some sweet shoes - worthy indeed of the moulin rouge!


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## jklu (May 22, 2005)

They are nice shoes, but I'm surprised anyone here would recommend derbies for semiformal wear.

I recommend opera pumps. If you don't want to go for pumps or slippers, then black wholecuts or plaintoe oxfords would work, too, polished to a high shine.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by jklu_
> 
> They are nice shoes, but I'm surprised anyone here would recommend derbies for semiformal wear.
> 
> I recommend opera pumps. If you don't want to go for pumps or slippers, then black wholecuts or plaintoe oxfords would work, too, polished to a high shine.


I was actually looking for a pair of oxfords but couldn't find a picture of one but IMHO those shoes would look odd at anything other than a formal situation. I know they don't fit all the rules but I think they would look rather smashing with a tux.

The only patent leather shoes that C&J had on their website were cap toes which again doesn't fit all the rules.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would you mind describing the kind of 'oxfords' that you mean please?



> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> ...I would have to beat someone if they showed up to my wedding in a pair of Clarks.


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## 80FJ40 (Sep 26, 2005)

I wear pumps all the time to black tie events. Never anything but appreciative comments. Mine are calf, not patent, with grosgrain bows. If all these years I have been committing faux pas of wearing outside of the home, I'd like to know. The calf makes them a little less flashy. Whatever you choose, consider polishing/dyeing the sole too, which I think is a nice touch on formal shoes.

80FJ40


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by 80FJ40_
> 
> I wear pumps all the time to black tie events. Never anything but appreciative comments. Mine are calf, not patent, with grosgrain bows. If all these years I have been committing faux pas of wearing outside of the home, I'd like to know. The calf makes them a little less flashy. Whatever you choose, consider polishing/dyeing the sole too, which I think is a nice touch on formal shoes.
> 
> 80FJ40


I think it is slippers that are not supposed to be worn out of a residence. Pumps are referred to as opera pumps so I know they can certainly be worn outside of the house. Like I said in my original post, I am not an expert on the propriety involved. Manton or Andy would be better to tell you when to wear what.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

rp:

You got some excellent advice here! The slip-on square toe shoes you first suggested are way too casual! If you don't have the required formal pumps then go with plain or cap toe oxford shoes as some have suggested.

Black Patent leather dancing pumps with ribbed silk bows are the most traditional. Formal shoes can also be shined leather or velvet. Velvet pumps are most appropriate when you are hosting a formal evening at home!

Oxfords (lace up) are fine, especially in an emergency. If you're going to wear oxfords, the best choice would be a plain toe or cap toe. Nothing that would resemble daily work shoes!!! No wing tips or loafers, or any other style that might be considered daytime business shoes. The oxford shoe can be shined as you would any dressy shoe.

Andy


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## pejsek (Jan 25, 2005)

The derby is a decent choice and not without something of a legitimate pedigree for formal wear. I've seen old bespoke two-eyelet patent leather derbies from both John Lobb and Alan Mcafee and must admit they looked quite nice--sleek and plain enough for formal wear while not evoking a daytime business shoe at all (this latter element being at least as important as the former one).


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

Hi rp. 

Yes, speaking as a fellow Brit, wearing pumps to an office xmas party would probably get you beaten up... by your own colleagues. In your case, the suggested derbys above should suffice, as well as perhaps polished black oxfords/wholecuts. It all depends on how "posh" your office do is. In any case, for an office party, I would not suggest wearing pumps at all. You would probably never hear the end of it.

If, however, you were having dinner with Royalty, then by all means wear pumps.

But whatever you do, don't wear loafers!

Regards


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

rp,and lameduck and all your other gentlemen from the UK:



> quote:"Yes, speaking as a fellow Brit, wearing pumps to an office xmas party would probably get you beaten up... by your own colleagues."


[:0] But you're the guys who invented all this and you're the reason we're wearing formal pumps with tuxedos!!

Andy


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## Hanseat (Nov 20, 2004)

I think that these C&J would be a nice touch of individuality when paired with a dinner jacket. Before my inner eye I can see those polished to a high spit-shine looking out of the bottoms of my trousers...[8D]

As to the rules: They are even more plain than wholecuts or anything else so that should suffice...

Now that I'm thinking of it I believe that Roetzel wore shoes much like these in the formalwear-chapter of the _Genteleman_


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

*sigh* Unfortunately the Brits on this site who dress as immaculately as they do, are fighting a 'losing' battle... well certainly if they and their fellow colleagues are ages 25-45 and work in a 'normal' office environment - in which case the magnitude of sartorial ineptitude is behemothic.

Take this description as a 'classic' example of what this dying breed has to compete with:



Sad Regards


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> the magnitude of sartorial ineptitude is behemothic.


This is my new favorite phrase from AAAC. With your permission, I will use it immediately.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By all means! I'm so very flattered.

Regards


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

*sigh*

If the party is posh enough to be black tie then wear formal shoes. If you don't want to dress in a dinner jacket, then wear a suit and 'smart' loafers and be done with it. It's beyond me why people ask opinions and then argue with the answers.

Try these:

They are cheaper than the other options, and have the benefit of being correct.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brooksfan_
> 
> If they're really smart, they'll beg you to choose other shoes to go with your tuxedo.


From a guy who wears patent leather bluchers ...

Joke!


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## Eugene (May 23, 2005)

RP, the shoes in question are totally in bad form. Badrabbit has in correct; please purchase a pair of the pumps referenced in this thread or perhaps an alternative formal wear shoe. And to my European colleagues in the forum, no this is not an American style of formal dress. Thank goodness. 

Eugene


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> *sigh* It's beyond me why people ask opinions and then argue with the answers.
> Try these:


Where is the cheapest place to purchase these? Can someone tell me how they compare to other plain toe formal shoes out there? Is there a place I can try them on and then return them?

-- l'homme-RJ


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Channelling your inner Bresch again?


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by manton_
> Channelling your inner Bresch again?


Sir, there is no Bresch inside me and there never has been. That said, he was missed at the RJ sendoff this Sunday. Perhaps he was dutifully and humbly transcribing a certain list of Paris _chemisiers_?

-- l'homme-RJ


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

I think you should wear red heels.

They will be very sightly and you can dance with the sun.

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> I am shocked... I really am!
> 
> ...


Did you know that pumps are not a women's item?

And that Frank Sinatra wore them too?

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

rp., in case you still don't believe us:





Regards


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> 
> *sigh* Unfortunately the Brits on this site who dress as immaculately as they do, are fighting a 'losing' battle... well certainly if they and their fellow colleagues are ages 25-45 and work in a 'normal' office environment - in which case the magnitude of sartorial ineptitude is behemothic.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I really do think those shoes you mentioned have too heavy a sole. Not suitable for a tux IMO

________________________________________________________________________


> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> I would have to beat someone if they showed up to my wedding in a pair of Clarks.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Lameduck, you are eloquent indeed!
RJman, nowhere is cheaper than Marks&Spencers... surely you know that!

Now I'm sorry, but this simply needs to go on the record - patent black shoes are just too posh for a UK dinner party any more, unless you are seriously dining with royalty. They just look too over the top. They really do.

As for pumps... I'm sorry. I am not prince charles. There is a whole world of difference.

Which is why, today in my lunch hour, I purchased these beauties...

Â£60!!!! And the look even nicer in the flesh )

I really can't believe how perfect they are for my tux, and every tux I hope to wear in the future!

________________________________________________________________________


> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> I would have to beat someone if they showed up to my wedding in a pair of Clarks.


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Red heels very pop-popular in the 18th Cent'ty. Here as well as Europe. Believe the craze was started by (big surprise) the French. If I ever go to the pumps I should paint the heels red. Might make for some interesting conversations.


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

Words cannot describe my frustration.

rp, I think you may have misunderstood me. I was not praising or recommending those shoes.

"*Take this description as a 'classic' example of what this dying breed has to compete with*:

"

If you follow that link, Marks and Spencer describe those shoes as "brogues". What I have highlighted in bold means this is what the 'dying breed' [read: most members of this board] must compete with: firstly, incompetence of the retailers for the masses, who incorrectly describe the products they sell. Secondly, the second-hand ignorance - the people who buy these mislabelled goods will 'learn' that that shoe is a 'brogue'. It is not! It is a cap toe oxford. And an ugly one at that.

If I were to recommend you something, it would probably be the C&J Audley in Black Patent leather. Or any other patent leather/highly polished oxford (cap toe or wholecut from JL/EG/C&J/AS).

Regards


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> Which is why, today in my lunch hour, I purchased these beauties...
> 
> ...


Oh no. It's too late.

Regards


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## hbb1283 (Aug 25, 2004)

I've been reading this thread for the past few days and while pumps may be the traditional appropriate attire, they are not very practical unless dining with royalty or at some other pretentious gathering. 

If I wore those pumps most would question my sexuality, including my wife. I am not and do not pretend to be part of the uppercrust of society, but I beleive that myself and my associates do just fine in a pair of patent leather plain-toe or cap-toe oxfords. No matter if you're at a hob-nob soiree with pump wearers in Manhattan or at your 
cousin Trudy's 3rd wedding in Paducah, Kentucky, you will always be properly dressed (well, at least your feet).


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## JBZ (Mar 28, 2005)

Am I the only one who thinks that "rp." is just an extremely well-behaved troll who is getting his jollies from our anxiety regarding his continued posting of shoes that are obviously unfit for formal wear?

If I'm wrong, then I apologize. However, if I'm wrong, then I have to say rp., very bad choice.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

The "correct" shoes for black tie are either patent leather or calf pumps or patent plain oxfords (no toe cap). For what that is worth. Decent plain patent oxfords are not hard to find. Since you won't wear them more than a handful of times a year, they should last a long, long time. I got some middling quality patent leather oxfords in 1992 and they are still going strong. I have not even had to get them resoled.


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## 80FJ40 (Sep 26, 2005)

.rp, you will be saluted for your audacity in wearing those Duck-billed Platapusian concoctions! 80FJ40

edit -- typos/brevity


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

There should not be any debate about this! There are proper shoes for formalwear.

The correct shoes with black tie are Black Patent leather or shined leather dancing pumps with ribbed silk bows. Oxfords (lace up) are fine (plain toe or cap toe), especially in an emergency.

This doesn't matter if you are going to a party full of hooligans or not. The types of people you associate with is your choice.

The word â€œformalâ€ comes from the Latin â€œformalisâ€ and French â€œformelâ€ meaning â€œof the form, appearance or organization of somethingâ€ or â€œwithin the rules of fixed formâ€.

In formalwear there isnâ€™t much room for creativity without making a social blunder. The present rules of formalwear works and they have been evolving to the perfection achieved for over a century. mostly from the *British!!*

Andy


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## Leon (Apr 16, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All is not lost! I was reminded yesterday by forum friends that Marks & Sparks has a great returns policy 

Leon


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

Well it seems the ones rp purchased are from Debenhams. How are their returns policy? 

Regards


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

RP,
You need to spend more time on the forum before you make any more shoe purchases. There is nothing "smart" about those loafers, and ceratinly nothing redeaming or appropriate about your latest purchase (duck bills??)

There is also nothing effeminate about evening pumps or albert slippers. If you dont want to go for a pair because they dont appeal to you or you wouldnt get much use out of them, then buy a decent pair of whole cut or smooth cap bals in black. Make sure they are well shined when wearing for black tie. You can also wear them with a business suit.

I'm afraid to ask, but what kind of lapel and how many buttons does your dinner jacket have? (thats the upper half of your "tux"). I assume you are renting?

The standards for proper formal wear and accesories are largely set by your countrymen. I am surprised at your lack of knowlege, though appreciate your query. Keep this site bookmarked, sounds like you'll be needing it if you are moving up in the business world.

Cheers


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Here's where real life steps in and messes up the black and white rules. It also helps to have lived with the Brits for some years.

I'd say the C&Js are perfect for an office party. I've even worn black paddock boots with a tux for a clean, highly polished look. A lot of guys, mates, whatever, are gonna make your evening dismal if you wear pumps. Why invite it? Different locales, people, parties, time of year all dictate one rule: There is no rule. Fit the shoe to the situation and have some fun. Maybe that's where style comes in?


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## The London Shoemaker (Sep 12, 2005)

I certainly wouldn't wear a moccasin with a tuxedo and if you really don't fancy wearing patent pump try a box calf pump that looks a lot more traditional. Failing that stick to a patent or calf dress oxford.

Paul Davies


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I'm sorry chaps... 
I swear... 'pumps' is simply not 'real world' advice. That is insane.

Not the world that I live in. That is the high business world of Britain! Yes, I kid you not.

That picture does not do my new shoes justice. I promise you it doesn't.

I am wearing them at the moment with my DJ and they look absolutely superb. I am over the moon with them. I am going to have to take a picture to proove it to you all! I will then be expecting lots of apologies and nods of approval!

N.B.
I believe you can be arrested in Britain for wearing pumps unless you are within the top 20 in line to the throne. Impersonating outdated foppery is not laughing matter I'll have you know!

________________________________________________________________________


> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> I would have to beat someone if they showed up to my wedding in a pair of Clarks.


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## JBZ (Mar 28, 2005)

> quote:Am I the only one who thinks that "rp." is just an extremely well-behaved troll who is getting his jollies from our anxiety regarding his continued posting of shoes that are obviously unfit for formal wear?


Seriously, am I the only one?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by JBZ_
> 
> Seriously, am I the only one?


When he posts things like this:



> quote:I swear... 'pumps' is simply not 'real world' advice. That is insane.
> 
> Not the world that I live in. That is the high business world of Britain!


it does make me wonder.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by manton_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hear rp is part of the navy-blue shoe class of English society.... [B)]

-- l'homme-RJ


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## eromlignod (Nov 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JBZ_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is obvious that he is quite young.

Don
Kansas City


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> That picture does not do my new shoes justice. I promise you it doesn't.


Those shoes won't be done justice until they're staked, burned and buried at a crossroads.

-- l'homme-RJ


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JBZ_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What took you all so long to work it out??



> quote: Not the world that I live in. That is the high business world of Britain! Yes, I kid you not.


It may be thus, but he cannot spell sole or heel.


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## Michael66 (Apr 28, 2005)

Manton...with ALL respect to you..heÂ´s just kidding....iritating. All this thread.....I fully respect your opinion, and not only your, for RIGHT shoes for DJ (though here, in Prague, you can just buy patent bluchers/derby!!!!!!!). But you are wasting your time...heÂ´s not going to learn your opinion or rules, heÂ´s just playing silly game.

...IÂ´m here to learn..and to envy sometimes)))


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I am not playing, I promise. I am genuinely grateful for the excellent advice I received from you guys over the last 24 hours. I just wonder in amazement at how you would seriously expect a young man in Britain to wear pumps to a serious social event. No matter.

Apologies for the typo's, too. I think this is the first time that I've ever discussed, in writing, sartorial matters like this. SP's are now corrected.

Maybe, just maybe, you guys need to consider something other than pumps - 'contemporise' a little [8D]

________________________________________________________________________


> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> I would have to beat someone if they showed up to my wedding in a pair of Clarks.


----------



## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am still waiting for an explanation of the blue shoes.


----------



## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Now if there's anything more sartorially and contemporarily perfect in a formal shoe then I've not seen it!

I'll take my bow now. Oh boy I'm in for some compliments tomorrow night... especially when I undo my bow tie and just wear it nonchalantly round my neck

N.B. Please ignore the carpet - it's my current rented accommodation during the week!

________________________________________________________________________


> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> I would have to beat someone if they showed up to my wedding in a pair of Clarks.


----------



## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by maxnharry_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is something I will choose not to respond to 

If I wasn't so confident in my own choice of style and presentation then I might actually be offended


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> I am not playing, I promise. I am genuinely grateful for the excellent advice I received from you guys over the last 24 hours. I just wonder in amazement at how you would seriously expect a young man in Britain to wear pumps to a serious social event. No matter.


*We suggested plenty of alternative to the pumps and you ignored them all and simply referred back to the pumps repeatedly*. Then, you went and bought the least appropriate shoes I have ever seen. Square toes do not belong with a tux. They are not at all elegant. Those shoes look very casual and will be in jarring contrast to the tux.

Gentleman, I'm starting to buy the troll theory.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

It would appear, Sir, that you are wearing your trousers around your hips rather than your waist from the way they are bunching over your duck-billed derbies. I think the shoes and your mode of wearing your trousers complement each other admirably and that you should have little fear of physical assault from your companions since, to judge by your previous posts, they will all be similarly attired.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

The shoes are completely plain and highly polished. As shiny as I've ever seen without the patent finish.

Yes, the trousers do not look good in those photos. They were not tightened or pulled up fully. Does not help my case, I'll admit.



> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> It would appear, Sir, that you are wearing your trousers around your hips rather than your waist from the way they are bunching over your duck-billed derbies. I think the shoes and your mode of wearing your trousers complement each other admirably and that you should have little fear of physical assault from your companions since, to judge by your previous posts, they will all be similarly attired.


I do love this forum though! At least when insults fly, they are elloquently and diplomatically delivered. Excellent 



> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> the magnitude of sartorial ineptitude is behemothic.


Beautiful [:I]


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Yes, we've been trolled.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

rp., I am increasingly coming around to the opinion that you are a good deal more sartorially sophisticated than you let on and are simply "taking the mick," as it were. I'd give even money that you've got a closet full of Edward Greens, Cleverlys, C&J Handgrades, Grenson Masterpieces and the like!


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> The shoes are completely plain and highly polished. As shiny as I've ever seen without the patent finish.
> 
> Yes, the trousers do not look good in those photos. They were not tightened or pulled up fully. Does not help my case, I'll admit.


We said plain toe and you got that part right, but we did suggest anything with a square toe for a reason. Wide square toes are a bad thing all around in my opinion but are certainly inappropriate in a formal situation. The shoes you bought, even highly polished, will never look formal because they lack the elegant lines of the shoes that the other members and I posted. The shape of the shoe is as important as the unadorned nature of the toe. Elegance is what you should be looking for with a formal shoe. The shoes you bought have none.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Next he'll ask if he can wear Spectators to a funeral.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by AlanC_
> 
> Yes, we've been trolled.


I believe you are correct. My troll-dar must be on the fritz. Early warning systems seem to have failed completely.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I fell for it hook, line and sinker. *sigh*


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

A closet full of Edward Greens? You're very kind, but I'm not quite so sophisticated. I'm just a normal guy trying to dress appropriately. 

You kind gentlemen are connoisseurs. You look for sheer elegance. I look for stylish but appropriate.

As a well-informed sales manager said to me today

"Thirty to forty years ago you would've been immediately ejected for wearing anything but patent oxfords at a black-tie event. But now this is tested left, right and centre. The rule book has gone out the window. There are so many more modern, smart designs which look modern, formal and acceptable."

Gentlemen, I really am delighted with my purchase and can't wait to wear them out tomorrow. I have you all to thank, as I wouldn't have got there without your advice and guidance. Thanks you to everyone who's contributed.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> As a well-informed sales manager said to me today
> 
> "Thirty to forty years ago you would've been immediately ejected for wearing anything but patent oxfords at a black-tie event. But now this is tested left, right and centre. The rule book has gone out the window. There are so many more modern, *smart* designs which look modern, formal and acceptable."


Is the word "smart" a word often used in the UK to describe ugly shoes? I suppose it must be an example of 'English' English that hasn't made its way to the colonies yet.

Does "well-informed" mean he agreed with what you wanted to hear?


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

rp, unfortunately, the shoes you have purchased really are an unmitigated disaster. There are simply no redeeming qualities. 

However, we learn from our mistakes. rp, I beg you to stay glued to this forum. Savile Row tailors post on this forum, as do Bespoke shirtmakers, shoemakers, tie makers, cufflink makers. There are members on this forum who travel the world to get suits made, or shoes, or shirts. This forum is bursting with sartorial connesiours (I would, without hesitation, go as far as to say 'world-class'), and they will give you a very good education. Judging by the pictures you posted - of your shoes and the way you wear you trousers - I presume you are still young. 

You were curious enough about the 'rules' of Black Tie (even though you went out and bought the polar-opposite of all our suggestions). This, I suppose, is a small light at the end of the tunnel. You are not beyond all hope.

Regards


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:As a well-informed sales manager said to me today
> 
> "Thirty to forty years ago you would've been immediately ejected for wearing anything but patent oxfords at a black-tie event. But now this is tested left, right and centre. The rule book has gone out the window. There are so many more modern, smart designs which look modern, formal and acceptable."


I do hope that you will ignore the animadversions of the other posters regarding your dress at the party. Bearing in mind the good advice of your colleague I would think the dinner jacket might also be dispensed with, and that your new shoes would go well with a suit of motley.


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## armorique4 (May 19, 2004)

Incidentally, rp, since you are a "guy" and apparently we are all also "guys", maybe you could explain what that means in addition to simply being male, if anything


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

EditOuble post


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> I do hope that you will ignore the animadversions of the other posters regarding your dress at the party. Bearing in mind the good advice of your colleague I would think the dinner jacket might also be dispensed with, and that your new shoes would go well with a suit of motley.


I think that the story sounds like a salesman who had no appropriate footwear to sell but wanted to make the sale anyway.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> I think that the story sounds like a salesman who had no appropriate footwear to sell but wanted to make the sale anyway.


I wanted to avoid bashing this so called "well-informed sales manager", but to do so would be criminal as he is simply amoral.

That salesman needs shooting.

Regards


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> I am so glad I asked you guys first []
> 
> As for the 'pumps'... if I wore anything like that in England, I would get thrown out and beaten up in less than 30 seconds! [:0]


I'm suprised. Are there really places in England like our Texas?


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## profjmb (Oct 15, 2005)

On styleforum, they did a poll on "opera pumps." About 45% of men said "I wear them." The other 55% said they hated them "with the passion of Christ." Me too. Tradition can/must change.


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

I have trouble getting over this idea that wearing pumps would lead to being harrassed, humiliated, or beaten.

While I am no professional bouncer or globetrotting tough guy, I can assure you that I would have a well-crafted reply to any remark about my wearing pumps; should the offending party wish to take it further, I have no moral difficulty with administering a sharp chop to the windpipe to settle down the square-toe rabble.

----------------------


"When you wear something like spats, I think you might as well wear your favorite players jersey bc what youre saying is I want to be powerful like the bear and Im wearing its hide to tap into its power." - Film Noir Buff

"First sense of what "normal" good clothes looked like came from my dad, of course, and from Babar books." - Concordia

" I have a related problem in that I often have to chase people. Leather soles are no good for this kind of work." - Patrick06790


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

Oh my goodness, is your high business world of London a high school business club party?

Because the level of sartorial acumen displayed in your digital pictures suits only the *classiest* of high school events.

Did you opt for a modern long tie of satin sheen?

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by profjmb_
> 
> On styleforum, they did a poll on "opera pumps." About 45% of men said "I wear them." The other 55% said they hated them "with the passion of Christ." Me too. Tradition can/must change.


No.

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by FlatSix_
> 
> I have trouble getting over this idea that wearing pumps would lead to being harrassed, humiliated, or beaten.


I think there was some hyperbole being employed there. As we don't know how senior rp. is or what his peer group is like it is difficult to know how he would find himself being responded to. I mention seniority as - as a sad fact - it seems that the number of people willing and able to take liberties with you reduces as you step up the hierarchy, so a middle manager might be able to dress without comment in a more distinctively formal manner than a more junior executive could. (It is a pity that to dress formally is to make oneself distinctive in this day and age, but such is life.) One would hope that people in the "high business world" would display more _savoir faire_, but I can imagine that a young fellow might get a lot of ribbing from his fellows for wearing pumps unless they had been reared in a fairly sartorially rarefied atmosphere and taught to dress properly. Probably many fellow guests would have no idea what they were for this reason. I very much doubt if anyone else would be wearing them and it would take some little nerve to be the first to do so. The best that one is likely to find would be a few plain toes or patent captoes (yes, not correct, I know, but still a slight improvement) in evidence. That is not a reason _per se _ for following the herd, but it is a consideration.

rp., welcome to the forum. I have to query your sales managers' advice - yes indeed, the shoes are modern, but being right on only one of three counts is not a good strike rate! That said, I am glad you are happy with them and I hope you have/had (?) a good evening.

Anthony.

By the by, I like my pumps (still awaiting an opportunity to wear them though) and wish they were more in evidence, although for an officer party I might go for a more low-key approach and wear my (sadly incorrect but I didn't know that when I bought them and I still like them anyway) patent Oxfords with the dreaded cap toe.

A.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> I just wonder in amazement at how you would seriously expect a young man in Britain to wear pumps to a serious social event. No matter.


I'm with you on this one, rp - our US cousins just do not understand how low the Brits have become in matters of formal attire, even around the square mile of London. I would also be too embarrased to walk down the street to an evening event wearing patent pumps. I think you will probably find that nobody will bat an eyelid if you wear the ones you purchased since most normal people don't go around staring at shoes at those events - they are too interested in talking, drinking and making eye contact. You should be able to get a refund on them from Debenhams if they are unworn - standard customer policy.

PS - you will learn in the course of time on this forum that a lot of what is said by 'sartorial experts' should be taken with a pinch of salt and I do have to pinch myself sometimes at what I read here - yes, the boundaries of correctness should be aimed for as much as possible and we all have our own little individual sartorial eccentricities, but we also have to live in the real world. But, I mean, really... _ascots, spats, strollers, starched wing collars, patent pumps???_


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Anthony Jordan_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Anthony Jordan_
> I think that the cloth-topped boots and white kid gloves with the opera cape might have been a bit of a mistake though...


You promised me you wouldn't tell anybody about those...


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My lips are sealed forthwith.


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

I think many Brits avoid dressing overly smart in fear of accusations of being one monocle away from "doing a Eubank".

Regards


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> Many members of this forum are not as concerned with correctness as they might wish to appear, judging by the disappointing apathy regarding Brooks Brothers' hijacking of the Royal Arms (per my recent thread).
> 
> [}]


Not at all, JLPWCXIII. I myself have challenged the CEO to a duel over the point and Vettriano man is to be my second, both to load for me and to take my place in the unfortunate event that I should be inadvertently delayed on my way to the field of battle. That'll show them.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

RP, do let us know how it went. The shoes you went for are considerably better than the loafers you intitially suggested. That shows a remarkable level of improvement despite the less than warm reception you received (with some obviously courteous exceptions).

Many members of this forum are not as concerned with correctness as they might wish to appear, judging by the disappointing apathy regarding Brooks Brothers' hijacking of the Royal Arms (per my recent thread).

[}]


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## 80FJ40 (Sep 26, 2005)

I agree that maybe we are being too hard on rp. Welcome (from a relatively newbie myself). If the event doesn't include dancing, then there is little likelihood anybody will notice your shoes unless you take pains to display them. Those who do will have the manners not to comment.

If they turn out to be the much-predicted failure, take solace that you can have your hatter craft them into a cap suitable for leather bars. 

80FJ40


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> I am not playing, I promise. I am genuinely grateful for the excellent advice I received from you guys over the last 24 hours. I just wonder in amazement at how you would seriously expect a young man in Britain to wear pumps to a serious social event. No matter.
> 
> ...


My friend, a serious social event would require pumps. I only suspected a troll earlier, now I am sure.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rp._
> 
> Now if there's anything more sartorially and contemporarily perfect in a formal shoe then I've not seen it!
> 
> ...


RP
Will that be a burberry check bow tie w matching cumberbund? Will this be a Chav black tie event? It cant be a "serious" one.

So sad that a British subject is so deluded on matters sartorial.


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> 
> I think many Brits avoid dressing overly smart in fear of accusations of being one monocle away from "doing a Eubank".
> 
> Regards


I have met some Germans and Austrians who still wear a monocle.

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

Hey Guys! I hate all this UK pump-bashing. The classiest thing you can wear is a pump with a tux. You can get them without the bows if you like. The main thing is they need to be patent leather.

Follow Andy's advice on this. I have both a bowed pair and some Italian made patent, formal pumps that have a PL V where the bow should be if they had one. 

Everyone here goes nuts over those pumps with the bows when I wear them. Alan Edmonds and Polo sell those bowed pumps in the US, among others. 

I got the idea for them from a Princeton alum friend from my home town who had a pair. He was the first cable TV operator in one part of New York City, in fact. He told me that when he was in college that they were much more common. That would have been just after WW II. He was a bomber pilot and was stationed in England for much of the war, in fact. This guy certainly didn't need a bodyguard. Cheerio!


Have a great party

Dan


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[V]

I used to think that London/England was still one of those sartorial wonderlands, but visiting these forums has really changed my outlook. I'm sure there are still lots of older gents in odd waistcoats, aristocrats floating around on country estates, and wedding parties in morning coats; but I'd almost feel more comfortable in NYC wondering into stores wearing a stroller or going out in a dinner jacket and pumps than in London.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

I'll take the other end of that bet.



> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> rp., I am increasingly coming around to the opinion that you are a good deal more sartorially sophisticated than you let on and are simply "taking the mick," as it were. I'd give even money that you've got a closet full of Edward Greens, Cleverlys, C&J Handgrades, Grenson Masterpieces and the like!


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> I used to think that London/England was still one of those sartorial wonderlands, but visiting these forums has really changed my outlook. I'm sure there are still lots of older gents in odd waistcoats, aristocrats floating around on country estates, and wedding parties in morning coats; but I'd almost feel more comfortable in NYC wondering into stores wearing a stroller or going out in a dinner jacket and pumps than in London.


Ah, I get a feeling rp. is not from London.

Regards


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> I used to think that London/England was still one of those sartorial wonderlands, but visiting these forums has really changed my outlook. I'm sure there are still lots of older gents in odd waistcoats, aristocrats floating around on country estates, and wedding parties in morning coats; but I'd almost feel more comfortable in NYC wondering into stores wearing a stroller or going out in a dinner jacket and pumps than in London.


Please take pity on us Brits - it's very depressing! But we just have to forge ahead as individuals and hold our heads up high [^] to the earshot sound of those delightful words: _"isn't he eccentric!"_ [)]


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> 
> I think many Brits avoid dressing overly smart in fear of accusations of being one monocle away from "doing a Eubank".
> 
> Regards


Please forgive me but what is "doing a Eubank" anyway?

And, I think the biggest problem with those patent leather "loafers" we wear with formal dress is their name. OPERA PUMPS. Gag, it just sounds to "girley," men to me. Athough, come to think of it, Governor Arnold S. has them on at formal affairs. I always wear them and so does most everyone else I know.

Dan


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DEG_
> I always wear them and so does most everyone else I know.
> 
> Dan


Perhaps you have justifiable reasons to wear them - maybe dinners at the White House, gala operas or other high end social activities where you step out of a chauffered limousine onto red carpet, but for those who don't it just doesn't work.


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DEG_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chris Eubank - British boxer, Eccentric Dandy, and default laughing stock of the country with regards to style:

*Photo Removed by Andy*

Regards


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, Eubank does cross the line in to parody and costume in his social pretensions. As for our friend RP, he hasnt quite acheived Eubanks level, just that of a deluded shlub going to a middle brow black tie affair. (or a troll who knows better winding us up)


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## Film_Noir_Buff (Mar 3, 2005)

I see he attended Magdelen, right choice, by god!

____________________
Get In Touch With Your Sartorial Chi.


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Film_Noir_Buff_
> 
> I see he attended Magdelen, right choice, by god!


Not quite. If you stare closely, it seems he has a black and silver tie.

Regards


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He reminds me of an African dictator arriving at some sort of international meeting.

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Thank you everybody who has contributed to this thread. I am rather flattered by the overwhelming level of response it has received!

The party (last night) was a huge success and I am delighted to report back that my choice of shoes could not have been more perfect. Honestly!

In fact, I was complimented twice on my presentation. Shoes were indeed mentioned. Not least, when the bow-tie was later undone and worn around the neck in the most nonchalant fashion.

It filled my heart with laughter to think what you gentlemen might have said had you seen me as such. But my presentation and every article on my body could not have been more appropriate to my surroundings - this is what mattered most to me!

To have attempted anything such as 'blazing a trail' by wearing pumps would have been socially suicidal.

I am so glad that I stayed true to my sartorial inner-senses, as inferior as they may well be [8)]


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

These seem to almost walk the line between pumps and loafers. Pretty fashion foward though.


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

Oh thats not pretty.

Regards


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## Film_Noir_Buff (Mar 3, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Andy_
> 
> rp,and lameduck and all your other gentlemen from the UK:
> 
> ...


Lol! Nice one Andy and quite true.

Incidentally, what kind of people are you working alongside lame duck? Sounds like youre surrounded by turkeys.

____________________
Get In Touch With Your Sartorial Chi.


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:
> 
> Incidentally, what kind of people are you working alongside lame duck? Sounds like youre surrounded by turkeys.


I don't work. I'm a student surrounded by turkeys.

Regards


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Interesting topic... I see I've come to it rather late and missed all the fun!

I do understand why in some Black Tie settings in the UK someone in the UK would avoid wearing opera pumps. The explanation is that most people in the UK have zero concept of what a Black Tie level of formality actually means. Therefore, if you are a relatively junior member of staff in your average middle-market provincial corporate office going to your annual "black tie" Xmas bash (being the only time in the year these folks will wear black tie), I can see why it would be suicidal to wear pumps. No-one would understand you are actually in the right (_especially_ your bosses). They'd think you're just being a pretentious ****er. You could still avoid wearing the amusing monstrosities posted in this thread by rp though!

Even when I go a black tie occasion, there will only one or two people wearing pumps (and a good 20% wearing "duckbills"). I myself don't wear pumps but that's just because I actually dislike the style. I wear a highly polished pair of black cap-toe oxfords, but should really get a set of Patent Leather cap toe oxfords for black tie events.


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## Film_Noir_Buff (Mar 3, 2005)

Now youve got me thinking that black tie events in britain have skinheads or football hooligans in kilts going OI! every minute and head butting people in the face. As in: "Oi, is that a pair of bleedin slippas youre wearing my lovely?"...BAAM!

Like that guy pretending to be King Louis in the balloon brothers episode of Monty Python's Flying Circus.

____________________
Get In Touch With Your Sartorial Chi.


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Film_Noir_Buff_
> 
> Now youve got me thinking that black tie events in britain have skinheads or football hooligans in kilts going OI! every minute and head butting people in the face. As in: "Oi, is that a pair of bleedin slippas youre wearing my lovely?"...BAAM!
> 
> Like that guy pretending to be King Louis in the balloon brothers episode of Monty Python's Flying Circus.


That is rather accurate.

Regards


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How sad for you


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## lameduck (Jan 6, 2005)

> quote:
> How sad for you


Yes, indeed. 

Regards


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by lameduck_


Lameduck and all:

Just got this message re the bottom photo:

*I am the webmaster of enroutemag.com and one of your forum
members is using an image without authorization

Please remove your hotlinking to this image on your forums.*

I just removed it. Any thoughts?

THANKS

Andy


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Andy_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently I arrived too late to see the photograph, though that level of esurience is rather frightful. A single image on a private message board? 'enroutemag.com', as with any other web-site, is itself heir of countless bequeaths from generations of beneficent geniuses. Good-faith, non-profit use in private settings of intellectual property should not be cause for such remonstrances. One hopes the web-master enjoyed the free counsel of these fora.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

_when the bow-tie was later undone and worn around the neck in the most nonchalant fashion._

Surely this is impossible with a clip on bow tie? 

Sad to say RP's reports of the 'high business world' of modern Britain are fairly accurate. I go fairly regularly to business awards dinners etc and the usual dress is hired notch lapel DJ (removed as soon as possible), wing collar shirt, clip on coloured bow tie, optional fancy waistcoat, and any black footwear that isn't actually a pair of trainers - Doc Martens, Clarke's 'cornish pasty' loafers, hush puppies, duckbills, etc.

Famously, our Chancellor Gordon Brown decreed that the Mansion House dinner (a formal banquet for the top dogs of the City of London) was to be 'business dress' (ie, off the peg suit from Oswald Boateng) rather than black tie. (I know I keep going on about this but it sums up modern Britain!)

The only time I see opera pumps is at black tie events where people wear their own dinner jackets as normal clothing as opposed to costume - hunt/charity balls, Pall Mall club dinners etc.

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## passingtime (Jun 23, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Copyright is copyright, the number of pictures is unimportant if they are within copyright, as is the good-faith, non-profit, or any other nature of this board. The 'fair use' provision is given here, (for US law only - it is different in other countries) https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html, and governs what you can post. In all cases the source should be cited, the usage should be relevant, and the excerpt used should be the minimum required.

The copyright status of linked material is unclear - and nobody wants to be the test case. The odds are that it will be a violation of copyright.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

This one ceratinly came back from the dead.

Same in the US, the CEO can be the worst dressed in the bunch. Even some of the top sales people look like crap. I dress better than all of them, but do sometimes need to adjust depending upon what customers I'm seeing


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## Charley (Feb 8, 2005)

I have only a light understanding of how the copyright laws are applied to the web. However, simply including a link to something hosted on the copyright owner's website would hardly seem to be a violation. Storing the picture and including it on your site as if it were yours is another matter.

Think about it a bit.
Almost Everything that Google provides a link to is covered by a copyright. And the sites are generally glad to get the traffic. What is likely to be of interest is that the link was causing his bandwidth useage to increase.


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