# Dickey-boy over at Wasp 101 has declared the Shaggy Dog -Out.



## Reptilicus (Dec 14, 2004)

Whattam I gonna do with all those stodgy old sweaters? They don't even have a logo on them? How's everybody going to know who I'm wearing? Anyone know where I can get an ultra-mega-slim fit Shetland that isn't thick or warm, with a big-ass pony on the front?


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

God, they're so passé. If anybody has some that will fit a size 36, I think I can suffer through with them on your behalf. :icon_viking:

Fun story: I think G. Bruce Boyer told me to buy a Shaggy Dog sweater at the last J. Press warehouse sale. I didn't know who he was, but with hindsight it was an incredibly well-dressed guy with his haircut and glasses who was giving somebody really excellent advice on what to buy. I sighed in disgust when I went through the whole stack of them and couldn't find any in size small. The guy said something to effect of "There's not a thing wrong with those," and I had to agree. I may have made some crack about needing to stop by McDonald's afterwards to make them work.


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## straw sandals (Apr 14, 2010)

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled shaggy dogs yearning to breathe free.

Please. :biggrin:

I have many sweaters but only one shaggy dog, in a sunny yellow. It's so pleasantly thick that it won't fit under my more tailored-fitting sport jackets. 

Does anyone know if they ever made a shaggy dog cardigan? I think that would be just fantastic. I've seen a few Drumohr cardigans, but never one branded for J Press.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

At they can't be too "out."


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

straw sandals said:


> Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled shaggy dogs yearning to breathe free.
> 
> Please. :biggrin:
> 
> ...


Yes, Press has made a shaggy dog cardigan before. I've only seen them at the warehouse sale, however, and they likely were made for the Japanese market, as they were on the small side. Unfortunately, Press now seems opposed to the warehouse sales, so we may not see such cardigans for awhile.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Press has made all sorts of shaggy dogs. Sweaters in cable and fair isle and my holy grail, the shaggy dog odd jacket.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

If yall are bored of your 40's, particularly the cable knits, let me know. There are 1 or 2 days per year I can wear them down here.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Wasp 101 = Shakespearean tragedy

The tenacity and persistence to run a blog for this length of time is admirable, but...


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## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

Sir Cingle said:


> Yes, Press has made a shaggy dog cardigan before. I've only seen them at the warehouse sale, however, and they likely were made for the Japanese market, as they were on the small side. Unfortunately, Press now seems opposed to the warehouse sales, so we may not see such cardigans for awhile.


Yes, there is a Shaggy cardigan. I have one that I'm pretty sure I bought off you SirC a few years back. It does run smaller than the crewneck version which would make sense if it was designed for the Japanese market. If I remember, I'll post a pic of it this weekend.

If anyone has been in the brick and mortar recently there is also a shaggy fair isle.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

CMDC said:


> Yes, there is a Shaggy cardigan. I have one that I'm pretty sure I bought off you SirC a few years back. It does run smaller than the crewneck version which would make sense if it was designed for the Japanese market. If I remember, I'll post a pic of it this weekend.
> 
> If anyone has been in the brick and mortar recently there is also a shaggy fair isle.


Yes, that's right, CMDC! I quickly bought a shaggy dog cardigan at the warehouse sale and it turned out to be too small for me. Since Press is currently doing some interesting things with the shaggy dog (fair isle, etc.), perhaps a cardigan isn't far off...


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

I recall that a few years ago (February 2011?) Press offered the Shaggy Dogs at 40% off for a very short time period. I hope that it is repeated this year, considering the almost $200 price point.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Is this the post? https://wasp101.blogspot.com/2013/01/making-over-j-press.html

With Rugby going under the days of $41.00 dollar sweaters are numbered. So he apparently likes the fake over the real thing. When I read the post all I could think of for some reason was that the Press wholesale price is less expensive then Ralph at full price.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Brio1 said:


> I recall that a few years ago (February 2011?) Press offered the Shaggy Dogs at 40% off for a very short time period. I hope that it is repeated this year, considering the almost $200 price point.


$200 is cheap for quality knitwear. It's 25% off right now and Andover's are also on sale.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Eric W S said:


> $200 is cheap for quality knitwear. It's 25% off right now and Andover's are also on sale.


Thanks, but I don't need any more encouragement as I own four Shaggy Dogs and I have my eye on yet another sweater in green. Perhaps you would like to buy one in order to present to me on my birthday? :icon_smile:


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Eric W S said:


> Press has made all sorts of shaggy dogs. Sweaters in cable and fair isle and my holy grail, the shaggy dog odd jacket.


I'm waiting for the blankets and toilet seat covers.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Brio1 said:


> Thanks, but I don't need any more encouragement as I own four Shaggy Dogs and I have my eye on yet another sweater in green. Perhaps you would like to buy one in order to present to me on my birthday? :icon_smile:


Sure. Just remember to check the ol mailbox around your birthdate. :cool2:.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Himself said:


> I'm waiting for the blankets and toilet seat covers.


Ya never know. Old is new again so toilet seat covers with matching accessories isn't out of the question....


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Shaggy Dog=pre-faded/distressed jeans=sucks

I hate those damn things. 

I prefer, by far, a conventionally knit shetland. Iroincally, it is J. Press that has tampered with the classic. Tampered and failed - the shaggy dog is a perfectly acceptable woman's sweater......


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I see them more as pre-washed khakis.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Wasp 101 = Shakespearean tragedy
> 
> The tenacity and persistence to run a blog for this length of time is admirable, but...


Richard laboring in the vineyard of futility.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Epaminondas said:


> Shaggy Dog=pre-faded/distressed jeans=sucks
> 
> I hate those damn things.
> 
> I prefer, by far, a conventionally knit shetland. Iroincally, it is J. Press that has tampered with the classic. Tampered and failed - the shaggy dog is a perfectly acceptable woman's sweater......


Such as? Are we to gather from this that a sweater with "pills" is unmanly? (It appears that we have a member suffering from an abundance of too much male testosterone and the consumption of cheap beer.) Let us hope that you don't own anything in pink, for crying out loud. :icon_smile_kisses:


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

"Dickie" who...?


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Brio1 said:


> Such as? Are we to gather from this that a sweater with "pills" is unmanly? (It appears that we have a member suffering from an abundance of too much male testosterone and the consumption of cheap beer.) Let us hope that you don't own anything in pink, for crying out loud. :icon_smile_kisses:


Your conflation of pills with pink reveals more about you than I. No cheap beer, but perhaps you suffer from a "cheap" education maybe one costing much but educating little.

I didn't say a thing about testosterone - I assume its absence attracted your comment. Maybe something about a vacuum...

Look, catamite - I don't like fuzzy sweaters. Simple as that.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Jovan said:


> I see them more as pre-washed khakis.


Fair enough. Good analogy.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Deleted


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Brio1 said:


> Such as? Are we to gather from this that a sweater with "pills" is unmanly? (It appears that we have a member suffering from an abundance of too much male testosterone and the consumption of cheap beer.) Let us hope that you don't own anything in pink, for crying out loud. :icon_smile_kisses:


Your conflation of pills with pink reveals more about you than I. No cheap beer, but perhaps you suffer from a "cheap" education maybe one costing much but educating little.

I didn't say a thing about testosterone - I assume its absence attracted your comment. Maybe something about a vacuum...

Look - I don't like fuzzy sweaters. Simple as that.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Epaminondas said:


> Your conflation of pills with pink reveals more about you than I. No cheap beer, but perhaps you suffer from a "cheap" education maybe one costing much but educating little.
> 
> I didn't say a thing about testosterone - I assume its absence attracted your comment. Maybe something about a vacuum...
> 
> Look - I don't like fuzzy sweaters. Simple as that.


Why did you delete your post in which you referred to me as a "catamite"? Perhaps you should explain this to the moderators?


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Reptilicus said:


> Whattam I gonna do with all those stodgy old sweaters? They don't even have a logo on them? How's everybody going to know who I'm wearing? Anyone know where I can get an ultra-mega-slim fit Shetland that isn't thick or warm, with a big-ass pony on the front?


With all due respect to Dickey-boy, perhaps he's dicked up! Heck, who am I kidding, no respect is implied,....

Opinions are just like our seventh sphincters: Everyone's got one.

Just speaking for myself, if and when, anything I enjoy becomes popular or the least bit trendy I move on and create a new trend for myself. What trait do I admire most? People who have no problem standing up to a crowd. What trait do I hold in lowest esteem? Followers,....

I don't know what I'd do if traditional American Men's clothing became trendy,...


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Epaminondas said:


> Your conflation of pills with pink reveals more about you than I. No cheap beer, but perhaps you suffer from a "cheap" education maybe one costing much but educating little.
> 
> I didn't say a thing about testosterone - I assume its absence attracted your comment. Maybe something about a vacuum...
> 
> Look, catamite - I don't like fuzzy sweaters. Simple as that.





Brio1 said:


> Why did you delete your post in which you referred to me as a "catamite"? Perhaps you should explain this to the moderators?


Actually the 'catamite' post is still up (see it quoted above). I must say that it is a rare occasion I must consult the dictionary whilst reading this forum so some small positive for Epaminondas there. That said I admit that I am not an expert homophobe, unlike some, eh Eppy? :icon_smile_wink:


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

Sir Cingle said:


> Yes, Press has made a shaggy dog cardigan before. I've only seen them at the warehouse sale, however, and they likely were made for the Japanese market, as they were on the small side. Unfortunately, Press now seems opposed to the warehouse sales, so we may not see such cardigans for awhile.


I bought 2 Shaggy Dog cardigans a few years ago. They're my house sweater of choice. Thankfully I got mediums as they are sized very small.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Epaminondas said:


> Your conflation of pills with pink reveals more about you than I. No cheap beer, but perhaps you suffer from a "cheap" education maybe one costing much but educating little.
> 
> I didn't say a thing about testosterone - I assume its absence attracted your comment. Maybe something about a vacuum...
> 
> Look - I don't like fuzzy sweaters. Simple as that.


A "liberal" education tends to civilize one, even instill those qualities necessary to gentlemanly comportment and thus he would refrain from puerile insults. (This from an individual fond of quoting a "Christian" apologist.)

I respect that you dislike "fuzzy" sweaters and I prefer a shetland that has not been combed as well, but I would ask that you refrain from insulting members (i.e. "woman's sweater") 
here that do happen to like the shetland from J Press.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

K Street said:


> I bought 2 Shaggy Dog cardigans a few years ago. They're my house sweater of choice. Thankfully I got mediums as they are sized very small.


Did you purchase these for a woman? (Please don't tell Epaminondas if you intend to wear them, for the love of God.) :icon_smile:


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ The "catamite" thing was a bit over the top but the woman's sweater thing isn't too rough, eh? On the other hand when put into context maybe the "woman" comment right behind the catamite thing is worth mentioning.

Jeeze Epaminondas, if I haven't been around in life I've definitely been in the vicinity and I can honestly say I don't ever recall catamite being used in everyday language. When was the last time you called someone a catamite? :icon_smile_big:


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

Brio1 said:


> Did you purchase these for a woman? (Please don't tell Epaminondas if you intend to wear them, for the love of God.) :icon_smile:


Haha did not see that half of the thread at first. They were definitely for me. And I wear them. Not sure I care what he thinks about it.


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## straw sandals (Apr 14, 2010)

I would love to see some photos of the cardigans. And, if anyone actually has one of those shaggy dog jackets, I would really love to see a photo.

Although the shaggy dog fuzz seems to have attracted a surprising amount of opprobrium, I personally love it. It's immediately recognizable, sensibly warm (noticeably warmer than my other shetlands!), and always brings back fond memories of late autumn in New Haven.

And heck, I'll even take a pink one. Paired with unassuming grey flannel trousers and a blue blazer, I think it would look very dashing indeed.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Well this fellow Dick has got you all talking about him, so I suppose he has accomplished his goal.

:icon_jokercolor:


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

If there are any new devotees of the brushed Shetland out there lurking, I hope this thread as not caused you any J. Geils inspired anxieties. Let me reassure you there is a long standing tradition of men wearing these sweaters.


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

Ban ban ban.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

C. Sharp said:


> If there are any new devotees of the brushed Shetland out there lurking, I hope this thread as not caused you any J. Geils inspired anxieties. Let me reassure you there is a long standing tradition of men wearing these sweaters.


While I would never say it with quite the strength of feeling of Epaminodas (although I do usually enjoy his vitriol, in a strange way), I have posted a few years ago that the shaggy dog reminds me too much of certain ladies sweaters. To me, the double brushing makes them look somewhat like mohair sweaters or angora sweaters which are very attractive on women, but not for me. And when the shaggy dogs get older, the piling can look odd to me. In fairness to the shaggy dog, I think a lot of the merino wool sweaters offered today are a bit too soft as well.

But with that said, I do like the fact that J.Press has continued to offer this iconic look that they created. Sort of like the fact that I never really liked their flap pocket oxford for my own shirts, but I appreciate the fact that they have kept to their own spin on the Ivy Style for customers who enjoy it. It is a nice throw back to when each town's College or Ivy shops were putting small twists on the classics (buttons on the back of the oxford collar, buckle back khakis, hook vents, etc.).

Different horses for different courses.


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

straw sandals said:


> I would love to see some photos of the cardigans. And, if anyone actually has one of those shaggy dog jackets, I would really love to see a photo.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Eh what is a J Geils inspired anxiety?


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

The whole womens sweater issue. The allusion being

"Those soft and fuzzy sweaters
Too magical to touch
Too see her in that negligee
Is really just too much"



zzdocxx said:


> Eh what is a J Geils inspired anxiety?


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## wacolo (Jul 21, 2006)

zzdocxx said:


> Eh what is a J Geils inspired anxiety?


"those soft and fuzzy sweaters, too magical to touch".... Centerfold


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Lol, great song, just never thought too much about the lyrics!


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

127.72 MHz said:


> Jeeze Epaminondas, if I haven't been around in life I've definitely been in the vicinity and I can honestly say I don't ever recall catamite being used in everyday language.


Mostly used by a certain type of English novelist such as Antony Burgess of 'Clockwork Orange' fame.

For example the first sentence from 'Earthly Powers' :-

"It was the afternoon of my eighty-first birthday, and I was in bed with my catamite when Ali announced that the archbishop had come to see me."


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

I did look up the Webster's definition.

I'm certain that a disagreement over fuzzy shaggy dog sweaters does not qualify as a precise application for "Catamite." Just doesn't work well,...


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## straw sandals (Apr 14, 2010)

Thanks, K Street. Those are beautiful.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Kingstonian said:


> Mostly used by a certain type of English novelist such as Antony Burgess of 'Clockwork Orange' fame.
> 
> For example the first sentence from 'Earthly Powers' :-
> 
> "It was the afternoon of my eighty-first birthday, and I was in bed with my catamite when Ali announced that the archbishop had come to see me."


Or perhaps Evelyn Waugh. However, I doubt that he is that well read. I vaguely recall the word in a book about the history of the popes.

The last Burgess novel that I read was his 'A Dead Man In Deptford'.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

In my experience, catamites generally dress well. Although I'm not sure how to separate the catamites from the general non-heterosexual male community?

Pily sweaters I don't think about when I read the word 'catamite' though.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Actually the 'catamite' post is still up (see it quoted above). I must say that it is a rare occasion I must consult the dictionary whilst reading this forum so some small positive for Epaminondas there. That said I admit that I am not an expert homophobe, unlike some, eh Eppy? :icon_smile_wink:


 Well, I was "censured" by moderators for the use of the word. Though, apparently, the moderators are indifferent to your ad hominem. I think the word "homophobe" is a pretty stupid term - there is no fear, more disgust. How does that translate into Greek? Pleased I could expand your vocabulary. I stand by my statement that "fuzzy" sweaters strike me as feminine - it was another poster who took that statment and started the insinuation and attacks. Apparently, a heterophobe....., but then, I'm sure once again, that fear is not involved so that would make it a stupid term to use......


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Brio1 said:


> Or perhaps Evelyn Waugh. However, I doubt that he is that well read.


Yes - you like fuzzy sweaters; I do not, therefore: I am unread. Please. I'll bet you had to look up the word too.

I read Waugh, the "Christian" (as you put it in quotes earlier) prior to reading reading Chesterton.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Epaminondas said:


> Well, I was "censured" by moderators for the use of the word. Though, apparently, the moderators are indifferent to your ad hominem. I think the word "homophobe" is a pretty stupid term - there is no fear, more disgust. How does that translate into Greek? Pleased I could expand your vocabulary. I stand by my statement that "fuzzy" sweaters strike me as feminine - it was another poster who took that statment and started the insinuation and attacks. Apparently, a heterophobe....., but then, I'm sure once again, that fear is not involved so that would make it a stupid term to use......


Initially - good. I'm glad to hear it. You deserved to be 'censured'.

Now, what's this abut my alleged use of an ad hominem? I wonder why you would choose to perceive a slur where none is directed at you?


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Let's not have this thread degenerate into the infamous "pink" thread: that definitely generated more heat than light ...

Not being trad, I had to look up what a shaggy dog was. It wouldn't be to my taste, but as the OP said far preferable to some wretched logo-emblazoned thing. My non-tradly choices would usually be a V-neck merino wool for under a jacket, or a plain Shetland for a country walk on a cold day under a Barbour.

I don't have any fair isles, but can see the attraction.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Balfour said:


> Let's not have this thread degenerate into the infamous "pink" thread: that definitely generated more heat than light ...


Agreed. If anti-homosexual commentary can be restrained then I am content.



Balfour said:


> Not being trad, I had to look up what a shaggy dog was. It wouldn't be to my taste, but as the OP said far preferable to some wretched logo-emblazoned thing. My non-tradly choices would usually be a V-neck merino wool for under a jacket, or a plain Shetland for a country walk on a cold day under a Barbour.
> 
> I don't have any fair isles, but can see the attraction.


Funnily enough I actually consider the shaggy dog to be rather feminine, myself. A bit too 'cuddly' looking for my tastes and certainly invoking images of Jayne Mansfield and 'sweater girls' generally. A decent Shetland is quite fluffy enough for me.

I'm toying with the purchase of a Fair Isle. Prior to my membership of this forum I had formed very negative associations with the Fair Isle of church youth clubs in the 1970's but by a happy sartorial osmosis resultant of exposure to some of the Trad forums leading luminaries I have managed to disconnect this relationship and can now see a Fair Isle slip-over fitting into my bucolic wear rather well.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

The youth group association never occurred to me with fair isles, but I can see the issue. I have a similar hang up about knitted ties - that is, a concern that I will look like a 1970s social worker from central casting (whilst seeing the attraction in principle of the texture and the casual nature of the tie for more casual tweed jackets).


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

K Street said:


>


I bought the tan Shaggy cardigan on a whim from an end-of-year sale on the website. I recall in that year many here were complaining about the weirdly small sizes of the Dogs that year. Never even tried it on, I wonder where I put it. Never seen the Shaggy Dog at any Press in Japan, so it was probably just a weird order (though now that I think about it, I pretty much visit Japan in summer).


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Epaminondas said:


> Well, I was "censured" by moderators for the use of the word. Though, apparently, the moderators are indifferent to your ad hominem. I think the word "homophobe" is a pretty stupid term - there is no fear, more disgust. How does that translate into Greek? Pleased I could expand your vocabulary. I stand by my statement that "fuzzy" sweaters strike me as feminine - it was another poster who took that statment and started the insinuation and attacks. Apparently, a heterophobe....., but then, I'm sure once again, that fear is not involved so that would make it a stupid term to use......





Shaver said:


> Agreed. If anti-homosexual commentary can be restrained then I am content.
> 
> Funnily enough I actually consider the shaggy dog to be rather feminine, myself. A bit too 'cuddly' looking for my tastes and certainly invoking images of Jayne Mansfield and 'sweater girls' generally. A decent Shetland is quite fluffy enough for me.


 Your comment is your *subjective opinion*. I see nothing what-so-ever "Anti-Homosexual" about Epaminondas comments. You have a right to your subjective opinion which are no less valid than the opinion than any member,...Which also means *they are not more valid either*.

My opinion is that adults have the right to be disgusted with anything they choose without risk becoming a social pariah. Individuals I admire most throughout history are those who have had no fear of being ostracized by followers of social fashion.

I dare say one could easily take your comments to be anti-feminine,....

I just can't see the fascination with Shaggy Dog sweaters. In my opinion they give the appearance of old, pilling, wool.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

127.72 MHz said:


> Your comment is your *subjective opinion*. I see nothing what-so-ever "Anti-Homosexual" about Epaminondas comments. You have a right to your subjective opinion which are no less valid than the opinion than any member,...Which also means *they are not more valid either*.
> 
> My opinion is that adults have the right to be disgusted with anything they choose without risk becoming a social pariah. Individuals I admire most throughout history are those who have had no fear of being ostracized by followers of social fashion.
> 
> ...


Au contraire, adults who express disgust with various things can freely be treated as pariahs. I generally put homophobes in that category. I can't think of a single homophobe whom I admire most throughout history either.

I also find it quite hard to see the anti feminism in S:s post.

As for the sweater in question, I generally agree.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

127.72 MHz said:


> Your comment is your *subjective opinion*. I see nothing what-so-ever "Anti-Homosexual" about Epaminondas comments. You have a right to your subjective opinion which are no less valid than the opinion than any member,...Which also means *they are not more valid either*.
> 
> My opinion is that adults have the right to be disgusted with anything they choose without risk becoming a social pariah. Individuals I admire most throughout history are those who have had no fear of being ostracized by followers of social fashion.
> 
> ...


I am well aware that I have a right to my opinion, as do others to theirs. And as long as opinions I consider distasteful are expressed then I will exercise my right to counter them with my own opinion. If you wish to then come along and counter my counter, please be my guest.

There, we're all sorted now. :icon_smile:


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

although it has nothing to do with those pre-pilled sweaters, a "catamite" is a boy kept for (****)sexual purposes, originally a slave, but later a male prostitute might be humorously called a catamite. The sexual peferences of the catamite himself are irrelevant. The OED suggests that catamite is some kind of corruption or mispronounciation of "Ganymede," but offers no details.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Bjorn said:


> Au contraire, adults who express disgust with various things can freely be treated as pariahs. I generally put homophobes in that category. I can't think of a single homophobe whom I admire most throughout history either.
> 
> I also find it quite hard to see the anti feminism in S:s post.
> 
> As for the sweater in question, I generally agree.


Of course people *can* be treated as pariahs. The question wasn't *if* people who express opinions can be treated as pariahs but to point out that the homophobe label has become overused in our society. I believe it's often used like pulling "the race card" attempting to silence those who's comments have nothing what-so-ever to do with being anti-homosexual.

This is exactly what you've done by suggesting that those I may have admired throughout history are somehow homophobes,....I'm also suggesting that perhaps you're wearing this on your sleeve.

I wonder if, anywhere, there exists individuals who are "hetrophobes?" If so, I wonder why we, as a society, haven't begun to identify them? Have you ever wondered about this? Do you believe that someone who could be labeled as a heterophobe should be socially ostracized?

I admire people who see through the silliness of many social trends,.... Period.

Back to Shaggy Dog Sweaters.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

127.72 MHz said:


> Of course people *can* be treated as pariahs. The question wasn't *if* people who express opinions can be treated as pariahs but to point out that the homophobe label has become overused in our society. I believe it's often used like pulling "the race card" attempting to silence those who's comments have nothing what-so-ever to do with being anti-homosexual.
> 
> This is exactly what you've done by suggesting that those I may have admired throughout history are somehow homophobes,....I'm also suggesting that perhaps you're wearing this on your sleeve.
> 
> ...


I see a reason for kicking homophobes, while heterophobes would be a very small and marginalized group indeed. But if you can find such a person, you're free not to socialize with him/her. If enough people do that, then maybe that person can be considered ostracized.

I would suggest right back that maybe YOU'RE wearing it on your sleeve. 

I also consider anti-homosexuality intrinsically amoral and, well, homophobic. That's just use, not overuse. If they then keep quiet, then so much better for polite society.

I hope you don't consider homosexuality a social trend. Googling ganymedes would in itself prove it is not.

As for if the comments where in fact anti-homosexual, that's obviously open for interpretation. But his follow-ups do not support your position, IMO.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

I see no reason for kicking *anyone* for their opinions. (with exceptions for acute public safety)

I believe your counter accusation that I'm wearing this on my sleeve lacks a cause and effect relationship, and thus validity.

While I do not consider homosexuality a social trend I do be believe this assertion to be the equivalent of "Pulling the race card."

I do however believe that it has become a social trend to label people homophobes. Making hallow accusations calling people homophobes is wrong regardless of what cause you feel you're defending.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Not a moderator anymore (Balfour graciously took up that position from me) but here's my two cents:

His use of the word "catamite" whether intentionally, unconsciously, or definitely not homophobic... was in very _bad taste_. I find it hard to believe that any of us could disagree on that.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ I'm with you 100% Jovan. (please refer to my posts right after the comment was made.)

There's also another point to be made here.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Not a moderator anymore (Balfour graciously took up that position from me) but here's my two cents:
> 
> His use of the word "catamite" whether intentionally, unconsciously, or definitely not homophobic... was in very _bad taste_. I find it hard to believe that any of us could disagree on that.


Agreed.

Let's be careful here, gentlemen. This conversation is flirting with some real unpleasantness. I think there's room to discuss homophobia or any other word with that particular greek prefix, but gently, gently, and without any trace of the ad hominem (from Greek to Latin).

I've never seen Shaggy Dogs in real life, but the idea of it strikes me as odd. Yes, it does remind me of the fuzzy sweaters that sometimes are fashionable among the ladies, and it also reminds me of 'distressed' clothing, which I never understood.

One of the concrete ways this forum has influenced my wardrobe is my rediscovery of shetlands in general; I wore them in the past and then strayed in favor of thinner marino v-neck sweaters, which look better over a dress shirt. I've late I've realized that I was lacking was the warmth of a nice, thick, crew-neck shetland. In fact, I just bought my first in many years. The bad news is that I can't figure out what to wear under the shetland other than an OBCD.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Balfour said:


> ... I have a similar hang up about knitted ties - that is, a concern that I will look like a 1970s social worker from central casting (whilst seeing the attraction in principle of the texture and the casual nature of the tie for more casual tweed jackets).


Moving on ... I find that association most regrettable. In fact I would question whether in the 1970s social workers from central casting were wearing any form of neck-wear at all. A knitted tie, especially one made of silk, can be a most useful and even - if the colour is well chosen - stylish accessory. Try not to think of them in the way you describe.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm torn on Shaggy Dog sweaters. I nearly picked up Rugby's "Shaggy Shetland" imitator, but held off because I wasn't sure about the available colours or how I'd like a fuzzy sweater. Lo and behold though, the regular Shetland I got from them appears to have been lightly brushed. Not as fuzzy as a Shaggy appears to be, but still curious.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

There were and may still be some good brushed Shetlands for sale over at unionmadegoods. I hesitated because I don't know what to make of brushed Shetland. Is that in effect what a Shaggy Dog is, or is a Shaggy Dog sort of a super-brushed Shetland?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

127.72 MHz said:


> I see no reason for kicking *anyone* for their opinions. (with exceptions for acute public safety)
> 
> I believe your counter accusation that I'm wearing this on my sleeve lacks a cause and effect relationship, and thus validity.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid that the lack of cause and effect would go both ways, although I could see reciprocal cause and effect. Now, one mans pulling of the race card is another mans discrimination law suit.

So as not to be completely relative, if labeling some behavior as homophobic or anti-homosexual is a social trend (for what is not a social trend) then it is one that I believe in wholeheartedly, much like sailing and drinking scotch, and saying that a statement is homophobic may at times be called for. There's nothing wrong with that. There was basis, so S called him on it. That's not hollow.

Unless you want to argue for a reasonable basis to disparage homosexuals, then a person who does so can be termed homophobic, since we cannot find a reasonable basis for that behavior.

Usually, the 'hallow' accusations go the other way though 

Should I write something along the lines of "back to sweaters" now? Perhaps just move this thread to the IC, since the original topic has been lost.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Langham said:


> Moving on ... I find that association most regrettable. In fact I would question whether in the 1970s social workers from central casting were wearing any form of neck-wear at all. A knitted tie, especially one made of silk, can be a most useful and even - if the colour is well chosen - stylish accessory. Try not to think of them in the way you describe.


I agree! But the association persists. (I should add that I don't have anything against social workers, who do a difficult and underappreciated job. But I shouldn't wish to dress as TV stereotype of one from that decade.) My casual tie of choice for tweed jacket is either wool or ancient madder. Wool doesn't of course work for the Summer, and ancient madder is certainly not as casual as either a knit or wool tie, so I do wish I could get over the hang up!


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> One of the concrete ways this forum has influenced my wardrobe is my rediscovery of shetlands in general; I wore them in the past and then strayed in favor of thinner marino v-neck sweaters, which look better over a dress shirt. I've late I've realized that I was lacking was the warmth of a nice, thick, crew-neck shetland. In fact, I just bought my first in many years. The bad news is that I can't figure out what to wear under the shetland other than an OBCD.


Both are definitely needed. How about a non-button down tattersall check wool/cotton mix for under the shetland?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

I'm looking at maybe getting a Guernsey right now instead, bit rougher. Anyone own a real Guernsey? How is sizing?


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Balfour said:


> Both are definitely needed. How about a non-button down tattersall check wool/cotton mix for under the shetland?


I hadn't thought of that. Where does one find such a thing?

Interestingly, I recall that I abandoned shetlands in the first place in part because they didn't seem to go well with any of my "nice" shirts. I first had to discover the OCBD to learn about how some kinds of "nice" shirts work better with different kinds of textures...


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> Should I write something along the lines of "back to sweaters" now? Perhaps just move this thread to the IC, since the original topic has been lost.


Some of us are trying to get it back on track!

For what it's worth, with my metaphorical moderator's hat on for a moment (recently conferred, from a metaphorical Bates of course), I agree with Jovan's comment about the "catamite" quip. Shaver and 127 were both making fair comments in my view, but points related to social attitudes to homosexuality are probably more appropriately discussed in the Interchange, as you say.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> I hadn't thought of that. Where does one find such a thing?
> 
> Interestingly, I recall that I abandoned shetlands in the first place in part because they didn't seem to go well with any of my "nice" shirts. I first had to discover the OCBD to learn about how some kinds of "nice" shirts work better with different kinds of textures...


Here's an example of what I mean: I don't recommend at that price (H&K have great sales). I've also picked up perfectly respectable versions in the past from Tyrwhitt.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Balfour said:


> I agree! But the association persists. (I should add that I don't have anything against social workers, who do a difficult and underappreciated job. But I shouldn't wish to dress as TV stereotype of one from that decade.) My casual tie of choice for tweed jacket is either wool or ancient madder. Wool doesn't of course work for the Summer, and ancient madder is certainly not as casual as either a knit or wool tie, so I do wish I could get over the hang up!


My casual tie of choice is knitted silk. I admire ancient madder very much but consider it slightly smarter than 'casual'.

Rather oddly (perhaps because I was _not_ wearing a tie at the time, although I was nevertheless in uniform) a long time ago I was once taken for a social worker (I think I had a more kindly face then) and embarrassingly had to hear out one young man's sorry tale of wifely infidelity.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I don't think Americans associate anything with social workers. Perhaps there are more social workers per capita in the UK, such that they have an image in the population imagination?


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> I don't think Americans associate anything with social workers.* Perhaps there are more social workers per capita in the UK*, such that they have an image in the population imagination?


That is highly likely.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Balfour said:


> Here's an example of what I mean: I don't recommend at that price (H&K have great sales). I've also picked up perfectly respectable versions in the past from Tyrwhitt.


That's lovely. The closest I've seen come from Filson, but those are more of the "what to wear when panning for gold in the Yukon" genre. I've never seen such things from CT but will keep my eyes open.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Balfour said:


> I agree! But the association persists. (I should add that I don't have anything against social workers, who do a difficult and underappreciated job. But I shouldn't wish to dress as TV stereotype of one from that decade.) My casual tie of choice for tweed jacket is either wool or ancient madder. Wool doesn't of course work for the Summer, and ancient madder is certainly not as casual as either a knit or wool tie, so I do wish I could get over the hang up!


Back in the early-to-mid 1980s when you could go to GQ and get fashion advice that you could actually trust, I think their "Elements of Style" column listed the silk black knit tie as the most essential item in a man's closet. It could be dressed up with a blue blazer or down with a patterned shirt and tweed sportcoat.

I think you're on the right track to pair the knit tie with a tweed jacket. I don't know if I would follow GQ's advice of black as the appropriate color, as I think I would prefer a nice orangy-red color instead.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Which reminds me of Jesse at "Put This On"'s insistence that a black grenadine tie is the one tie to own if you only own one tie, although it still doesn't make sense to me.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Back in the early-to-mid 1980s when you could go to GQ and get fashion advice that you could actually trust, I think their "Elements of Style" column listed the silk black knit tie as the most essential item in a man's closet. It could be dressed up with a blue blazer or down with a patterned shirt and tweed sportcoat.
> 
> I think you're on the right track to pair the knit tie with a tweed jacket. I don't know if I would follow GQ's advice of black as the appropriate color, as I think I would prefer a nice orangy-red color instead.


Both black and midnight blue are excellent for knit ties, IMO. With a blue solid shirt, its perfect with a suit/jacket with a prominent check.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Which reminds me of Jesse at "Put This On"'s insistence that a black grenadine tie is the one tie to own if you only own one tie, although it still doesn't make sense to me.


Because I wear a lot of navy (suits and odd jackets), my "one tie" would be a Hober grenadine dark red (which is darker even than the name suggests - clarety).


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> Which reminds me of Jesse at "Put This On"'s insistence that a black grenadine tie is the one tie to own if you only own one tie, although it still doesn't make sense to me.


This puts it rather nicely:

Can also be worn with a solid suit for that very sleek, minimal look. And accessorize s easily with PS and shirt.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> Both black and midnight blue are excellent for knit ties, IMO. With a blue solid shirt, its perfect with a suit/jacket with a prominent check.


The wool ties I reach for (my substitutes for knits - supra) are burgundy and midnight blue. I realise black ties are favoured by 'style icons' but again I've never managed to reconcile myself to wearing one with a lounge suit outside of a funeral.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Should one wear a tie with a crew necked sweater?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Balfour said:


> The wool ties I reach for (my substitutes for knits - supra) are burgundy and midnight blue. I realise black ties are favoured by 'style icons' but again I've never managed to reconcile myself to wearing one with a lounge suit outside of a funeral.


That's why a knit works, I feel the same way about black ties in general. A black knit is really nice though. It switches the tie over to being a background for other items of clothing.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> That's why a knit works, I feel the same way about black ties in general. A black knit is really nice though. It switches the tie over to being a background for other items of clothing.


What width do you favour for knits?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Balfour said:


> What width do you favour for knits?


Grenadine in small and large. But anything goes, as long as it looks well made... I'm looking to buy some more and just got samples from Paul Winston. They look really nice.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Bjorn said:


> Grenadine in small and large. But anything goes, as long as it looks well made... I'm looking to buy some more and just got samples from Paul Winston. They look really nice.


They are nice. Well made ties.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> Grenadine in small and large. But anything goes, as long as it looks well made... I'm looking to buy some more and just got samples from Paul Winston. They look really nice.


Are we at cross purposes? Grenadine is a silk weave that produces that distinctive 'waffly' texture, but is non-casual. Knit silk is the casual 'sock tie'. Another hang up I have with knits is the width, which tends to be much narrower than conventional ties (e.g. 2.5", where as my width of choice - not being trad - is 3.5").


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Bjorn said:


> I'm looking at maybe getting a Guernsey right now instead, bit rougher. Anyone own a real Guernsey? How is sizing?


Are you referring to the kind that Woolovers sells? I looked at them and was interested, but I'd probably try their Lambswool or Fisherman's sweaters first.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Balfour said:


> Are we at cross purposes? Grenadine is a silk weave that produces that distinctive 'waffly' texture, but is non-casual. Knit silk is the casual 'sock tie'. Another hang up I have with knits is the width, which tends to be much narrower than conventional ties (e.g. 2.5", where as my width of choice - not being trad - is 3.5").


Actually, you want a 2.5" or 3" for knits. The reason they're narrower than woven ties is because they create a larger knot and are the same width from top to bottom.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Jovan said:


> Actually, you want a 2.5" or 3" for knits. The reason they're narrower than woven ties is because they create a larger knot and are the same width from top to bottom.


Oh yes, I appreciate that. But it's still a hang up with the overall look of the knit for me, as I'm used to a broader conventional tie.

Are 3" knits common? I thought anything beyond 2.5" was meant to be beyond the pale (my disclaimer is that this is not something I have much if any personal experience of, just what I've picked up in discussions about them).


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Maybe for residents of Style Forum. I've seen 3" knits retailed by a number of traditional British establishments.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Balfour said:


> Are we at cross purposes? Grenadine is a silk weave that produces that distinctive 'waffly' texture, but is non-casual. Knit silk is the casual 'sock tie'. Another hang up I have with knits is the width, which tends to be much narrower than conventional ties (e.g. 2.5", where as my width of choice - not being trad - is 3.5").


Oh sorry, my linguistic failure... I consider the grenadine usable as both casual and non-casual, and I see I confused them with 'knit' in English (from Swedish). My apologies. My idea of casual is fairly Italian and smart, though.

The sock tie, the real knit, I have the same hang ups about as you do. A black knit then would not be my first choice for the only tie to own, but very well a black grenadine or similar weave.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> although it has nothing to do with those pre-pilled sweaters, a "catamite" is a boy kept for (****)sexual purposes, originally a slave, but later a male prostitute might be humorously called a catamite. The sexual peferences of the catamite himself are irrelevant. The OED suggests that catamite is some kind of corruption or mispronounciation of "Ganymede," but offers no details.


My impression was that it is synonymous with "Butt-Boy" whereby the sexuality of both the pitcher and the catcher are irrelevant. It is merely a convenient gratification arrangement found most frequently aboard ships and in prisons.

(Excuse the colloquialism if you can)

I'm not a fan of the Shaggy Dog. It's just too bulky and warm for the DC area.

Sweater Girls??

I dig 'em.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> Oh sorry, my linguistic failure... I consider the grenadine usable as both casual and non-casual, and I see I confused them with 'knit' in English (from Swedish). My apologies. My idea of casual is fairly Italian and smart, though.
> 
> The sock tie, the real knit, I have the same hang ups about as you do. A black knit then would not be my first choice for the only tie to own, but very well a black grenadine or similar weave.


Not at all! I have enough difficulty in communicating in my native tongue!:icon_smile_wink:

On grenadines, I feel comfortable in wearing a grenadine within the very conservative to semi-informal spectrum (i.e. dressier lounge suits through to blazer and greys probably through to non-blazer semi-solid odd jackets). Wouldn't wear one with rough tweed.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Bjorn said:


> Oh sorry, my linguistic failure... I consider the grenadine usable as both casual and non-casual, and I see I confused them with 'knit' in English (from Swedish). My apologies. My idea of casual is fairly Italian and smart, though.
> 
> The sock tie, the real knit, I have the same hang ups about as you do. A black knit then would not be my first choice for the only tie to own, but very well a black grenadine or similar weave.


I'd recommend a navy silk knit to start if you're unsure. It will be very versatile. The Knottery has fairly inexpensive knit ties. I've never tried them, but they can't be any worse than ones from The Tie Bar, which I hear are great value for the price.

https://theknottery.com/ties/knit-ties/solid-silk-knit-ties.html


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## boatswaindog (Nov 18, 2010)

A bit about fashion. I think these things remained popular in New England because mothers could pass around the clothes their children outgrew to the children of relatives. If no style ever changed, nothing was ever "out".


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Epaminondas said:


> Yes - you like fuzzy sweaters; I do not, therefore: I am unread. Please. I'll bet you had to look up the word too.
> 
> I read Waugh, the "Christian" (as you put it in quotes earlier) prior to reading reading Chesterton.


I thought the statement was implying that Waugh himself might not be too well read. I would not consider Waugh a particularly 'Christian' writer. Too much of a curmudgeon and he would be likely to describe himself as a Catholic rather than a Christian. He was no C. S. Lewis. When asked how he reconciled his appalling behaviour with his faith Waugh stated he would be even worse were he not a Catholic. Chesterton and Belloc are more what you might expect from 'Christian' or Catholic writers but neither would be likely to have used the term 'catamite'. Le Carre may have used it though.

Still bad form to call another poster a catamite though. It will never slip under the radar.


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## boatswaindog (Nov 18, 2010)

Waugh was a very Christain writer. Catamite might have been an acceptable term in his day. His day is past. Human sexuality is an incredibly complicated subject. Perhaps like the subject of economics, we are just beginning to understand it, a little. It's best not to insult people about it.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Should one wear a tie with a crew necked sweater?


It is not a look that I favour, as it has a rather ungainly appearance.

Similarly one should resist wearing a v neck without a tie, simply because the space demands to be filled.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Balfour said:


> Are we at cross purposes? Grenadine is a silk weave that produces that distinctive 'waffly' texture, but is non-casual. Knit silk is the casual 'sock tie'. Another hang up I have with knits is the width, which tends to be much narrower than conventional ties (e.g. 2.5", where as my width of choice - not being trad - is 3.5").


It's a fair point Mr B, and an issue I tend to surmount by wearing a knit silk with a slip-over, thus concealing the narrow blades.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Shaver said:


> It is not a look that I favour, as it has a rather ungainly appearance.
> 
> Similarly one should resist wearing a v neck without a tie, simply because the space demands to be filled.


Must disagree there.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Jovan said:


> Must disagree there.


OK, but don't keep it a secret - with what and why? :icon_smile_wink:


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## Essential (Mar 20, 2012)

Balfour said:


> Another hang up I have with knits is the width, which tends to be much narrower than conventional ties (e.g. 2.5", where as my width of choice - not being trad - is 3.5").


I totally agree. Even though I'm young and favor slim things, the knit ties are way too narrow for my liking. On most people, it looks really foolish so I'm not sure why people [the "common folk"] are flocking to adopt it into their wardrobe.

3.25-3.5" ties is the way to go though 3.75" aren't far off the mark.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704380504575529853222256376.html

This is also a popular brand https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=LeTricoteur&_sacat=0&_from=R40. To Bjorn question one web site suggests sizing up 4 sizes https://www.shop.guernseyknitwear.c...tional-Woollen-Guernsey.html?shop_param=cid=&


Jovan said:


> Are you referring to the kind that Woolovers sells? I looked at them and was interested, but I'd probably try their Lambswool or Fisherman's sweaters first.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Shaver said:


> It is not a look that I favour, as it has a rather ungainly appearance.
> 
> *Similarly one should resist wearing a v neck without a tie, simply because the space demands to be filled.*


I'll disagree with the second bit. V neck and jumper is a common casual look for me. And I rarely if ever wear ties without a jacket (even if the jacket is not worn continuously for the whole day).


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Balfour said:


> I'll disagree with the second bit. V neck and jumper is a common casual look for me. And I rarely if ever wear ties without a jacket (even if the jacket is not worn continuously for the whole day).


Once I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly (as you may recall) but increasingly I am taken with the wearing of a tie with a v neck slip over (even employing, oh mercy me, a four-in-hand knotted tie!).

You may perchance easily conclude which of our, mutually respected, fellow members has influenced this transformation. :rolleyes2:


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Shaver said:


> Once I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly (as you may recall) but increasingly I am taken with the wearing of a tie with a v neck slip over (even employing, oh mercy me, a four-in-hand knotted tie!).
> 
> You may perchance easily conclude which of our, mutually respected, fellow members has influenced this transformation. :rolleyes2:


Yes, indeed.

I am reluctant under any circumstances to advocate not wearing a tie, as it makes me feel somewhat of a Fifth Columnist for the greater evil of suits without ties. But I've never been able to get my head around ties without jackets. I think an example I've given in the past of a rare occasion where I would be comfortable with it is perhaps with a jumper and shooting jacket for a country jaunt. It doesn't help that it is a little close to what you see some people wearing now - waistcoats (aka vests) and ties without jackets, a look I find repellent.

EDIT: I suspect another part of the reason for me is that I am very comfortable wearing tailored odd jackets as casual wear - it doesn't at all feel like dressing up. So for a casual occasion a notch up from 'jumper and open necked shirt' it would never occur to me to add just a tie, but it would occur to me to add an odd jacket.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I would, at this point, note that i never leave my home without a jacket on my back. Thus the tie without a jacket look is one that need not concern me.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Now I want a guernsey.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Hey Mr. Balfour are you saying you would add the odd jacket but not wear the tie?


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

zzdocxx said:


> Hey Mr. Balfour are you saying you would add the odd jacket but not wear the tie?


Yes, I am very relaxed about an odd jacket and open-necked shirt. It's hard to explain why that feels right but suit without a tie is so wrong, but that's the way it is for me. Of course, I would have no difficulty adding a tie as well, but I was describing the next step along the spectrum from very informal to formal (i.e. why it would not involve adding a tie without a jacket).


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Shaver said:


> OK, but don't keep it a secret - with what and why? :icon_smile_wink:


Sorry, that v-necks must always have a tie with them. I agree it is a bit silly to wear a crew neck with a tie as you'll maybe just barely see the knot and half the shirt collar. But on the flip side, I see nothing wrong with wearing a v-neck without a tie.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Shaver said:


> It is not a look that I favour, as it has a rather ungainly appearance.
> 
> Similarly one should resist wearing a v neck without a tie, simply because the space demands to be filled.


Such hard and fast rules,..... While I do like v necks with ties I also think they work very nicely in a casual setting.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

C. Sharp said:


> https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704380504575529853222256376.html
> 
> This is also a popular brand https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=LeTricoteur&_sacat=0&_from=R40. To Bjorn question one web site suggests sizing up 4 sizes https://www.shop.guernseyknitwear.c...tional-Woollen-Guernsey.html?shop_param=cid=&


Nice. I think I will go for a traditional, tight fishermans fit  maybe size up a little...

I particularly like the collar and shoulders.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Here is Muffy in one  :
https://www.muffyaldrich.com/2010/10/guernsey-sweater.html?m=1


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Are guernseys and shetlands identical with respect to where they fit in one's wardrobe (when they're appropriate, what clothing one wears with them, etc.)?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> Here is Muffy in one  :
> https://www.muffyaldrich.com/2010/10/guernsey-sweater.html?m=1


That's a lovely photo Bjorn. What a fine looking gentleman, very rugged and manly.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

127.72 MHz said:


> Such hard and fast rules,..... While I do like v necks with ties I also think they work very nicely in a casual setting.


Now, now. No mention was made of rules, they are merely personal preference attributable to aesthetic considerations. :icon_smile:


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Shaver said:


> That's a lovely photo Bjorn. What a fine looking gentleman, very rugged and manly.


Gods S, you must really like them pink, frilly and sweet 

I like the sweater though, but she's wearing it a little on the loose side perhaps.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> Are guernseys and shetlands identical with respect to where they fit in one's wardrobe (when they're appropriate, what clothing one wears with them, etc.)?


The Guernsey would be much more casual, as it is in an oiled (or waxed?) thread. It's an actual nautical garment, with some water resistance. I'm not sure I'd wear an odd jacket over it at all.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> Gods S, you must really like them pink, frilly and sweet
> 
> I like the sweater though, but she's wearing it a little on the loose side perhaps.


I shall be honest (dangerously so given the beliefs expressed by certain folk in other threads) and admit that I don't mind a touch of androgyny. That creature does rather take the proverbial biscuit though. Bushy eyebrows give me the creeps.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I prefer my brows painted on!!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Shaver said:


> I shall be honest (dangerously so given the beliefs expressed by certain folk in other threads) and admit that I don't mind a touch of androgyny. That creature does rather take the proverbial biscuit though. Bushy eyebrows give me the creeps.


I could have sworn you said at one point that you found her attractive. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I wouldn't say her eyebrows are "bushy", she just doesn't over-pluck them as some women are wont to do.

I think androgyny can be beautiful in its own way. David Bowie made me question my erm, leanings a few times...


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Muffy does seem to excite strong reactions. I've not read her blog, but do we really need to make ungentlemanly comments about her appearance?:icon_scratch:


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> Are guernseys and shetlands identical with respect to where they fit in one's wardrobe (when they're appropriate, what clothing one wears with them, etc.)?


A guernsey is not a sweater I would buy on a whim. It's a very particular design that doesn't really pair well (IMO) with most clothing. The guernsey has no front or back. Both sides are identical so you get twice the wear out of one by wearing it "backwards." This is most notable in the neck, which always looks and feels like you're wearing a crewneck backwards no-matter which way it's on. It's also got a loose, split hem instead of a traditional knit hem, raised shoulder seams and a few other symbolic details in the knit. It's more of an outerwear piece than something that can be incorporated between layers like a Shetland, which is usually relatively thin.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Balfour said:


> Muffy does seem to excite strong reactions. I've not read her blog, but do we really need to make ungentlemanly comments about her appearance?:icon_scratch:


That's a Shaver thing. I disagree with him, but I think it's kind of funny when he comments on it nonetheless. :tongue2:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Balfour said:


> Muffy does seem to excite strong reactions. I've not read her blog, but do we really need to make ungentlemanly comments about her appearance?:icon_scratch:


Yes, occasionally I do.

Sorry. I shall endeavour to keep it to a minimum. :redface:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Jovan said:


> *I could have sworn you said at one point that you found her attractive.* Maybe I'm mistaken. But I wouldn't say her eyebrows are "bushy", she just doesn't over-pluck them as some women are wont to do.
> 
> I think androgyny can be beautiful in its own way. David Bowie made me question my erm, leanings a few times...


You take that back! :mad2:


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

hardline_42 said:


> *That's a Shaver thing. *I disagree with him, but I think it's kind of funny when he comments on it nonetheless. :tongue2:


Maybe he protests too much!:devil:


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Balfour said:


> Maybe he protests too much!:devil:


He doth. Mayhap his scantily clad neighbour is a Muffy


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> He doth. Mayhap his scantily clad neighbour is a Muffy


Nah, the neighbour has an entirely....err... shall we say 'different' figure.


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## boatswaindog (Nov 18, 2010)

I said it once before: Muffy is the real thing. You might not like it, but 400 years of a certain style is what she knows and what she writes about.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Jovan said:


> ...use of the word "catamite" whether intentionally, unconsciously, or definitely not homophobic... was in very _bad taste_. I find it hard to believe that any of us could disagree on that.


Well, we all know what a delicate, sensitive soul you are, but then the poster wrote "It appears that we have a member suffering from an abundance of too much male testosterone and the consumption of cheap beer" - that because I suggested that a shaggy dog looked more like Angora than a sweater a man would wear. The " I find it hard to believe that any of us could disagree on that" is a old worn rhetorical trick that belies your education i.e., no serious person could possibly.......". I suspect many would object to the initial response to my mild attack against fuzzy sweaters. And using your mindless rehtoric, I find it hard to believe that any of us could disagree that that it is inappropriate to chratcerize someone as a cheap, drunken, sabvage, nerely because he thinks a shaggy dog looks like a sweater for a '50's pinup.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Agreed. If anti-homosexual commentary can be restrained then I am content.


How is saying that a fuzzy sweater is nice on a woman anti-homosexual?


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

boatswaindog said:


> You might not like it, but 400 years of a certain style is what she knows and what she writes about.


 Really? silver buckles, corsets, shifts, pettticoats? I think not. Her casual wardrobe dates from the 1950-1940s at the earliest.......


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Kingstonian said:


> Still bad form to call another poster a catamite though. It will never slip under the radar.


I consider stating that I "suffer[ed] from an abundance of too much male testosterone and the consumption of cheap beer" for merely opining that a fuzzy sweater was better for a woman to be worse. Espcially the cheap beer slight. I was drinking a very fine bourbon....and I suspect either Chesterton or Belloc might have resorted to a similar defense in the face of such a personal attack especially given the pink and pills tangent that the atacker engaged in which reflected only too much of his inclinations.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

boatswaindog said:


> I said it once before: Muffy is the real thing. You might not like it, but 400 years of a certain style is what she knows and what she writes about.


Muffy is 400 years old? Ah, well that explains a great deal. Now I am aware of this I will be less hard on her.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

This thread has now benefited from some addition by subtraction (of some posts).

As a softly softly approach fell on deaf ears (my #75), let me be clear: The topic of social attitudes to homosexuality is a sensitive one. This thread is not the place for an extensive debate about it, and any contributions to such a debate in the Interchange should be framed in civil terms without ad hominem attacks or slurs.


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