# Contemporary Trad Car



## Bowdoin (Dec 9, 2004)

I know this has been discussed before, but given that it's not too practical to buy an '88 Volvo or Saab, what are the best contemporary options for a trad on the car market?

Some (mostly underwhelming) candidates:

Volvo S40:

Volvo S60:

Volvo S80:

Saab 9-3 Sport Sedan:

Saab 9-5 Sport Sedan:

VW Jetta:

VW Passat:

BMW 324ci Coupe: https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3/325cicoupe/default

Mini Cooper:

Mercedes C230 Sport Sedan: https://www.mbusa.com/models/main.do?modelCode=C230WZ

Audi A3 Sedan: https://www.audiusa.com/model_home/0,,bodyStyleId-13,00.html?bodystyle=a3sedan

Audi A4 Sedan: https://www.audiusa.com/model_home/0,,bodyStyleId-1,00.html?bodystyle=a4sedan


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Bowdoin_
> 
> I know this has been discussed before, but given that it's not too practical to buy an '88 Volvo or Saab, what are the best contemporary options for a trad on the car market?
> 
> ...


I OWN LINE ITEM #1. NEW. LOVE IT. BLACK W/GREYISH TAN LEATHER. NOT A SINGLE SCRATCH OR NICK YET. GIVE IT ANOTHER MONTH. DINGS GALORE FOR SURE.


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## FormerlyTM (Feb 18, 2005)

Ford Crown Victoria


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Bowdoin_
> 
> I know this has been discussed before, but given that it's not too practical to buy an '88 Volvo or Saab, what are the best contemporary options for a trad on the car market?
> 
> ...


Hey Bowdoin,

Do you happen to know Bill McLaughlin from Bowdoin? I know small chance. He was a linebacker in the late 80's. Captain of Bowdoin and lead the team in tackles. Friend of mine. Undersized so never went on. Super bright, does some genetic research in the the pharma industry. Great guy.........
Joe


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

I like the last generation of Audi's a lot. Does anyone else think the newer ones are a little too flashy? I guess they have to differentiate from VW,


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by TimmyMac_
> 
> Ford Crown Victoria


Yeah, that's pretty much it. And the XJ8, though it's really getting pricey.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Would a late 90s mid-size SUV count or only new cars?

---------------------


Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## Oswald Cornelius (Sep 27, 2005)

Wagoneer


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Oswald Cornelius_
> 
> Wagoneer


It's an alltime favorite but the true blue Wagoneer is not contemporary in the automotive sense, I think the last of the favored design was made about 1984.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

S60


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by ksinc_
> 
> S60


I think Volvos have lost a lot of their tradly boxiness.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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True. They have lost the boxiness. My Wife drives the S60 in Platinum Grey. It was a heck of a deal. They are still a good value and run forever. A guy in our neighborhood has one with ~300,000 miles. I know a ~very~, ~super~, wealthy Trad woman that has one. At $30k base, they are the cheapest of the nicer sedans (BMW, MB).


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## GreyFlannelMan (Jun 16, 2004)

Not sure how Trad a Mini Cooper is. Rather, it's Mod.

I'd say the Jeep Grand Cherokee.


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## Chris H (Oct 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by GreyFlannelMan_
> 
> Not sure how Trad a Mini Cooper is. Rather, it's Mod.


Does the Mini Cooper sell well in the states? I saw a few in San Francisco when I visited last fall.

For the record we have two Audis, a '98 A4 Avant and a '99 A3 Hatchback. I don't think the early A3 was sold in the US.

I can't say I've ever though of them as trad.


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## GreyFlannelMan (Jun 16, 2004)

I don't know how well they sell now, but when they were first introduced here, they seemed to be all over the place in NYC. I think it's good city car -- easy to park, reasonably good on the gas consumption, cool aura. Not sure how well they did/do in the Red States.



> quote:_Originally posted by Chris H_
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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by GreyFlannelMan_
> 
> Not sure how Trad a Mini Cooper is. Rather, it's Mod.


Very popular with the 'mod' or 'retro' set in the mid-west. Gay men who buy Eames and Nelson mid-century modern stuff.
Not trad at all.
Cheers


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Speaking of boxy shapes: How about the old Land Rover Discovery? Now replaced by the LR3.

Cheers,
Harris


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Speaking of boxy shapes: How about the old Land Rover Discovery? Now replaced by the LR3.
> 
> ...


We have had one for years and can't wear it out. Great car.

We also have an S60R which is a great car, but not at all trad imo.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Speaking of boxy shapes: How about the old Land Rover Discovery? Now replaced by the LR3.
> 
> ...


I have thought about these as well. Not that I dont love the JGWagoneer, but a bit impractical and hard to find. I like the new Volvos. I like the older VW body styles better than the new year.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Assuming a trad dislike of spending wads of cash, any new BMW would be right out of the running. Those (and the new M-Bs) are basically deep holes that you pee money into...

DocD


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## Morris (Feb 13, 2006)

For trads with children ...



-- Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by iammatt_
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Would you say more about the Land Rover? My wife insists that it wouldn't be reliable. I disagree.


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## Sweetness (Aug 25, 2005)

Discos are notoriously unreliable.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
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The car has been absolutly reliable for going on 11 years. The most important thing about them is that they need to be driven often. I believe that we have only had it in the shop once for anything other than regular maintenance.


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## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Bowdoin_
> 
> I know this has been discussed before, but given that it's not too practical to buy an '88 Volvo or Saab, what are the best contemporary options for a trad on the car market?


What are the problems with the old Saabs? LIke the boxy 240? Anything. Maybe expensive to fix eh? I always thought they were built well? Maybe if you get lucky and buy it from the mythical old granny who only drove it to church or down to the general store every week...


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## boatshoes (Aug 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
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I thought that's how everyone who didn't buy theirs new or had them handed down got them. If memory serves me correct, the 240 ended production in the early 90's.

I wouldn't discount an old Saab or Volvo. Fairly inexpensive and safe. Will probably last a long time.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

That description sounds very Tradly to me.


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## djl (Feb 6, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
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Harris:

While they have had a spotty reputation in the past, the model made a huge leap in 2003 engineering-wise. They completely redesigned it (Ford-owned), and it resulted in a far more reliable vehicle.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by djl_
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That's good to hear. But then they stopped making it and introduced the LR3. Interesting.


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## 80FJ40 (Sep 26, 2005)

didn't have a disco but had a defender 90 (windows were an option). Even though a very basic design it was unreliable in things that did not affect basic functionality (trying to squeeze too much production out of those guys at solihull).

80FJ40


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

Perhaps the Wrangler if you're young and the Cherokee if you have a family.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## Briguy (Aug 29, 2005)

I have a 2004 disco. Very reliable so far. It has a few squeeks that would never pass muster in any other car, but seems to give this car character. For example, the front sunroof squeaks when it is below 15 degrees F, rear sunroof squeaks between 20 and 30F (front stops squeaking at these temps) and rear hatch squeeks above 30 but below 60F (unless its very humid, then it squeeks in line with humidity).

I asked the dealer to address the rear hatch squeaking. It squeaked worse after the adjustment. I think the dealer misunderstood my instructions....


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by iammatt_
> 
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How's the S60R? Those are beautiful cars. I've been driving an 850R for the past 3 years, but am finally trading it out Saturday for a '99 4Runner because I'm so tired of paying to get it fixed. Aside from the annoying amounts of money I've had to spend on it though, I've thoroughly enjoyed the 850R.

Trip


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## BPH (Mar 19, 2007)

LongWing said:


> I like the last generation of Audi's a lot. Does anyone else think the newer ones are a little too flashy? I guess they have to differentiate from VW,


They don't look much different to me - put a current Passat by an A6 and there's not much between them - The Audi is much better inside and has a much higher performance potential if desired. The Audi has much less flash than MB or BMW and is just as nice to drive.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

Wouldnt taking a taxi everywhere be more trad than the recommendations here?

MrR


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Thats what I do. A combination of commuter rail (R5 and R8 only, please) and taxis. The best would be to have a standing order with a cab company to take you to and from the train station each day.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

septa said:


> Thats what I do. A combination of commuter rail (R5 and R8 only, please) and taxis.


But not the Lansdale/Fox Chase termini, one assumes.


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## VC2000 (Feb 10, 2006)

Harris said:


> That's good to hear. But then they stopped making it and introduced the LR3. Interesting.


I have a Range Rover - I have the last model and now I have the new model. Neither one has been a good vehicle. For the price you would expect a well put together vehicle but minor finish details are lacking, missing or poor quality. I have had several problems with the mechanical as well. A major disappointment. Since Ford has owned them I think they put pressure on the design but the follow through falls short.

Granted the RR are at the mountain houses so I do not use them frequently. Perhaps that is my problem however I have an older MBs that never give me any problems.


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## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

Doctor Damage said:


> Assuming a trad dislike of spending wads of cash, any new BMW would be right out of the running. Those (and the new M-Bs) are basically deep holes that you pee money into...
> 
> DocD


because they are unreliable, or because they are expensive when new?

I'm looking at an 04 325 for my wife but am nervous about the cost of repairs.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

egadfly said:


> But not the Lansdale/Fox Chase termini, one assumes.


True, but doesn't Fox Chase sound so much more tony than Paoli?


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

Depends.

Contemporary Trad is a bit of an oxymoron. A thing does not become Trad until it has acquired that all important ingredient, Age, which allows it to bob to the surface above the sea of fads, trends, and period novelty. 

However, it is possible to develop a knack for prediction, if you're the daring type. 

Fortunately the basic criteria for Trad autos appear to be surprisingly similar to those for Trad clothes.  

Is it immediately obvious when the auto is from by looking at it? I believe Trad automobiles are best in styles that have longevity, without looking like period pieces. Avoiding exaggerated boxiness or sleekness in lines, and sticking with classic colors are important. Is it the sort of auto that draws attention to itself for being rare or expensive, or could it easily pass as being any old car? Trad autos ought not encourage gawkers. Is it made by an auto manufacturer who has a long reputation for durability and low maintenence costs? If not, does it carry the same features that make those branded cars so durable? Trad autos are at their best when they can be passed along. 

Interesting topic. :icon_smile_big:


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

septa said:


> True, but doesn't Fox Chase sound so much more tony than Paoli?


Yes-but it certainly isn't.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> Assuming a trad dislike of spending wads of cash, any new BMW would be right out of the running. Those (and the new M-Bs) are basically deep holes that you pee money into...
> 
> DocD


Actually, I find my '06 3 series wagon not exorbitant, and by far the best (and not most expensive) car I've owned.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

My wife has a new BMW, and the nice thing about it is the service is included. This is true for the lifetime of the lease of the car, or if financed, for 3 years. Not a bad deal at all. 

BMWs are great cars, and I thoroughly enjoy driving hers. Im currently driving an 89 Grand Wagoneer myself. Gray with wood paneling on the outside, maroon on the inside.


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## arturostevens (Feb 6, 2007)

I have spent small fortunes on "German road cars" over the years. Hundreds of thousands of dollars on my own car addiction. Then I got smart and bought Japanese. Nothing goes wrong. Nothing breaks. They have elegant engines. Your first tune up on a Honda is at 100K.

The value for the dollar is amazing. You can buy a Honda with 100K miles on it, and if the oil was changed, the odds are, it will go for 200K more. No insults to the BMW people out there, I've been there in spades. They have great road stick. But for my money, looking for trad, stay away from "image" cars like old Saabs or old Volvos. Leave that to the college students. Get yourself a good preowned car from the Land of the Rising Sun like an Accord or Civic or Camry. That is trad enough, because trad, I think, also means being smart with your money.


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

I propose the Model 80-Toyota Land Cruiser. It has all of the needed components. Reliable and durable, well appointed inside and with a distinctive shape.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

arturostevens said:


> I have spent small fortunes on "German road cars" over the years. Hundreds of thousands of dollars on my own car addiction. Then I got smart and bought Japanese. Nothing goes wrong. Nothing breaks. They have elegant engines. Your first tune up on a Honda is at 100K.
> 
> The value for the dollar is amazing. You can buy a Honda with 100K miles on it, and if the oil was changed, the odds are, it will go for 200K more. No insults to the BMW people out there, I've been there in spades. They have great road stick. But for my money, looking for trad, stay away from "image" cars like old Saabs or old Volvos. Leave that to the college students. Get yourself a good preowned car from the Land of the Rising Sun like an Accord or Civic or Camry. That is trad enough, because trad, I think, also means being smart with your money.


Toyota/ Lexus vehicles are of fine quality-I just prefer the riding qualities of the BMW by far.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

I can certainly understand the love of Japanese cars -they are reliable and run forever. There is just something about them that always keeps me away. They lack a certain ingredient that I love in a car - quirkiness. Japanese cars are just so efficient and souless. Their individuality has been engineered out of them.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

Both of my kids have used Japanese cars as first-time owners. The value and safety are superb, but I agree that they have not much soul. As for the wife and I, we just blew the law school tuition and added a second E-class MB. The 2007 version has eliminated some of the quirks that existed in the 2003-2006 models, such as grabby breaks and heavy steering. Is MB trad, or not? I can argue both ways. Bill


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

I plan to get a Volvo S70 or S90 for my next car (late '90's/early '00's). Cheap, reliable, boxy...sounds like Trad to me!

The S90's interior is really great, FWIW.


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

FormerlyTM said:


> Ford Crown Victoria


If you're Robert McNamara.

Hard question to answer these days- there's the luxury contingent, suv's (LR, not the porsche/ hummer ostentatiousness), the volvos which have changed so much since ford bought them, the saabs (which are the lowest ranked customer satisfaction on Consumer Reports), Suburus, etc.

In the "fog of war" McNamara, when discussing the demographics of import (vw) buyers in the 50's describes with surprise essentially the ivy types of the day. As I recall the motivating factor in the purchase was value more than anything else- the equivalent today would be the prius (no, not the one with 50 bumper stickers given free with the Hampshire diploma). I think that there are no more really easily identified singularly tradmobiles as there were 30+ years ago.


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

Not long ago I left a board meeting for a local non profit with another member. He's the most trad dresser I know. BB 3/2 blazer, ocbd's, loafers etc. He's probably in his late sixties. He got into a recent model Buick. It fit him perfectly.

Markus


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## Southern_Proper (Apr 23, 2007)

eyedoc2180 said:


> Both of my kids have used Japanese cars as first-time owners. The value and safety are superb, but I agree that they have not much soul.


Both of our daughters wanted VWs, so against our better judgement.....ugh. I have a BMW 330i, and between that and the Jetta and Bug, my husband is continually cussing German engineering. The Jetta costs a minimum of $1000 to fix everytime we take it to the dealership. It even has a brand new engine (we paid half, VW paid half since it was just out of warranty). I haven't had any serious problems with the BMW, but it's never cheap. The most annoying thing is that you can't just take it anywhere for an oil change or something simple.

Mr. SP drives our 2000 Landcruiser and it only needs brakes and tires. We thought we'd just give it to our son to drive in two years when he turns 16, but I don't think my husband will be willing to give it up.

All of our cars are silver and grey--I don't think we did this on purpose, it's just what appealed.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Markus said:


> Not long ago I left a board meeting for a local non profit with another member. He's the most trad dresser I know. BB 3/2 blazer, ocbd's, loafers etc. He's probably in his late sixties. He got into a recent model Buick. It fit him perfectly.
> 
> Markus


1975 Buick LeSabre Convertible. Navy with white top and white seats. 18 mpg but no car payments and parts readily available.


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## JeffC (May 28, 2006)

septa said:


> Thats what I do. A combination of commuter rail (R5 and R8 only, please) and taxis. The best would be to have a standing order with a cab company to take you to and from the train station each day.


I don't own a car, but am thinking of getting one. Thinking about getting a small little sportscar like old MG, since I don't need to rely on it for commuting.

My other (less fun, but likely less work) choices are an older Mercedes 300D or boxy volvo.


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## theoldguard (Mar 13, 2006)

Purchase a Land Rover and you will get to know the service department personnel very well; I did. I agree with the Buick recommendation. The trad car is a bland car--not shiny, not racey.


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

I prefer my motor cars as I prefer my women--with pedigree and class. Which is why I drive and have driven MB for years. These vehicles have rarely given me or my family any trouble. Older Volvos, Jags, and Saabs are appropriate too. Japanese and American motor cars are to be avoided. Modern SUVs of any make are accursed. :aportnoy:


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

knickerbacker said:


> If you're Robert McNamara.
> 
> Hard question to answer these days- there's the luxury contingent, suv's (LR, not the porsche/ hummer ostentatiousness), the volvos which have changed so much since ford bought them, the saabs (which are the lowest ranked customer satisfaction on Consumer Reports), Suburus, etc.
> 
> In the "fog of war" McNamara, when discussing the demographics of import (vw) buyers in the 50's describes with surprise essentially the ivy types of the day. As I recall the motivating factor in the purchase was value more than anything else- the equivalent today would be the prius (no, not the one with 50 bumper stickers given free with the Hampshire diploma). I think that there are no more really easily identified singularly tradmobiles as there were 30+ years ago.


I drive an '04 SAAB 9-3. I've been happy with it. It looks nice, runs well and gets great gas mileage. My brother has a new Volvo S40. It's also a very nice car. His is a 5-speed, so it is more fun to drive than my SAAB. My wife insisted we buy an automatic. :icon_pale:


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## wannaB1L (Jul 30, 2006)

BMWs, mini coopers and MBs are not trad. Volvo and Ford Crown Vic are.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Dear me, please help. I just bought a new car and I'm afraid it's not very trad. What shall I do?

*M3 cab-Imola red. 

**Do you think if I "pop" my collar it will help?--Ha, Ha, Ha!!!


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

The Volvo S-60s.

The S-40s are too small and the S-80s have a bad rep.

FYI, Volvo is being sold to BMW now. Should improve again since Ford watered it down.

The interiors on the Ford-era Volvos are looking pretty bleak IMHO. We looked at them this weekend while getting our S-60 serviced. Our S-60 makes the current models look baaad. Well, the Wife's. I never drive it.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

wannaB1L said:


> BMWs, mini coopers and MBs are not trad. Volvo and Ford Crown Vic are.


Pretty definitive stance there, eh? Interesting since it seems to contradict not only the OPH (which is right on so many other things), but the general consensus that an 80's diesel MB is about as trad as one can get.


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## JeffC (May 28, 2006)

tripreed said:


> Pretty definitive stance there, eh? Interesting since it seems to contradict not only the OPH (which is right on so many other things), but the general consensus that an 80's diesel MB is about as trad as one can get.


Oh no. Is it bad if I've wanted a 300D since before I came to ask andy and learned the word trad?

My sister was right. I will never grow out of my conservative style dress.


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## Thornhill (May 14, 2006)

A.Squire said:


> Dear me, please help. I just bought a new car and I'm afraid it's not very trad. What shall I do?
> 
> *M3 cab-Imola red.
> 
> **Do you think if I "pop" my collar it will help?--Ha, Ha, Ha!!!


Probably not trad, Squire, but certainly the right thing to do!


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## Faulkner (Jun 24, 2006)

In my view, the BMW is a fine trad car. I am a practically daily Southwick, Robert Talbott, Gitman Bros, Bill's Khakis, and Alden wearer and a devoted BMW 5 series driver. Having an interest in, even an obsession with, trad clothes does not mean that one must drive a Buick (a very trad car, mind you -- and for many years the clear choice of well-bred doctors, lawyers, and merchants who did not want to drive a Cadillac) or a Wagoneer or old Land Rover. 

Many cars can be "trad" -- certainly the 70-80's Mercedes E class and SLs, practically all Volvos, Buicks (very trad), Suburbans and many wagons and SUVs today and in the past, Land Rovers, Saabs, Porsches, Audis, and VWs. The BMW 2002 is old school trad, and the modern trad can feel very comfortable in the current version of most of the cars listed above and several others including almost every modern BMW on the road.


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## wannaB1L (Jul 30, 2006)

tripreed said:


> Pretty definitive stance there, eh? Interesting since it seems to contradict not only the OPH (which is right on so many other things), but the general consensus that an 80's diesel MB is about as trad as one can get.


appearantly your reading comp skills are not up to par. The OP said [contemporary car]. The 80s were a couple of decades ago. I do agree that BMWs, MBs, and Range Rovers were trad way back then. But he asked about contemp auto. Don't feel bad that you are functionally illiterate, because I am a poor speller.


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## Thornhill (May 14, 2006)

A "trad" contemporary car seems a bit odd to me because I've always viewed trads as
liking low-tech things, and cars of recent vintage seem to be anything but.

Having said that, I think that the MB E-class and Range Rover (as well as the Land Rover LR3) are updated versions of the 80's models and therefore consider them trad. Both possess a conservative, understated design when compared to its modern competition, are still perceived as among the best in their respective segments, though not as definitively as 20-30 years ago, and can point to an accomplished history giving their respective brands a cache that others lack. The Jeep, particularly the Grand Cherokee, and Toyota Land Cruiser are valid alternatives to the Rover products. I'm pretty much set on the E-class as far as sedans go, although the Saab 9-5 resonates with me for some reason.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> Assuming a trad dislike of spending wads of cash, any new BMW would be right out of the running. Those (and the new M-Bs) are basically deep holes that you pee money into...
> 
> DocD


I am on my second new BMW. I traded my last one at 60,000 miles. I have never spent a dime in maintenance or repairs outside of the new tires for my first one. BMW's come with free annual maintenance, including brakes and pads, for 50,000 miles. They are also extremely well built. Upon what do you base your conclusion that they are money pits? MB, maybe, but I have never known a BMW owner to complain about maintenance or repairs. These automobiles are one of the best built vehicles in that price range. I am not sure how BMWs are when they get very old, maybe they are prone to regular repairs, but I was assuming the person was talking new since he mentioned contemporary. I have no experience with used BMWs, so I cannot speak to the older ones.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Thornhill said:


> I'm pretty much set on the E-class as far as sedans go, although the Saab 9-5 resonates with me for some reason.


As a former 9-5 owner, I understand the attraction. The 9-5 was actually fairly outdated when it was introduced back in 1999, and is the last "true" pre-GM Saab. Recent versions have been watered down quite a bit (they ruined the front end years ago, have "de-contented" most of the original quirky Scandinavian interior features, and the '07 model year has a new - and horrible - dashboard), but older cars are quite a bargain on the used-car market. Mine was a 2000 model, and was as reliable as any car I've ever owned, including Hondas.


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## tsweetland (Oct 2, 2006)

KentW said:


> As a former 9-5 owner, I understand the attraction. The 9-5 was actually fairly outdated when it was introduced back in 1999, and is the last "true" pre-GM Saab. Recent versions have been watered down quite a bit (they ruined the front end years ago, have "de-contented" most of the original quirky Scandinavian interior features, and the '07 model year has a new - and horrible - dashboard), but older cars are quite a bargain on the used-car market. Mine was a 2000 model, and was as reliable as any car I've ever owned, including Hondas.


I've got a 2003 9-5 and I like it just fine. The only problem with it, and I guess you could say this about any car of its ilk, is that anytime you have to get anything fixed, and I mean ANYTHING, it's a minimum of $500.


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## JeffC (May 28, 2006)

gnatty8 said:


> I am on my second new BMW. I traded my last one at 60,000 miles. I have never spent a dime in maintenance or repairs outside of the new tires for my first one. BMW's come with free annual maintenance, including brakes and pads, for 50,000 miles. They are also extremely well built. Upon what do you base your conclusion that they are money pits? MB, maybe, but I have never known a BMW owner to complain about maintenance or repairs. These automobiles are one of the best built vehicles in that price range. I am not sure how BMWs are when they get very old, maybe they are prone to regular repairs, but I was assuming the person was talking new since he mentioned contemporary. I have no experience with used BMWs, so I cannot speak to the older ones.


BMW had three choices: either improve their reliability to the level of the Japanese, provide free maintenance for the first 50,000 miles (two benefits: you improve consumer confidence and you force the consumer to replace their car every 50,000 miles), or lose market share.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

JeffC said:


> BMW had three choices: either improve their reliability to the level of the Japanese, provide free maintenance for the first 50,000 miles (two benefits: you improve consumer confidence and you force the consumer to replace their car every 50,000 miles), or lose market share.


I can't speak for all BMW models, but my 2002 530i (E39) has been as trouble-free as any Japanese car I've ever owned. "Full maintenance" is a plus, IMO.


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

*trad car*

I think the reason we all like the 80's diesel Mercedes so much is that they were similar to cars from 30 years earlier. and didnt change much etc(not to mention a great car that can and will see 250 k miles)

dont think there is a car today with that much trad cache-(too bad but no reason to fall into lockstep)
for all that buying an 80s Mercedes (however fun) seems more like a car collector move than a trad lifestyle one(given that there really is one in the 1st place)-


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

I had always thought that a Trad car exhibited understated reliability and longevity. Ford Crown Victoria, Buick LeSabre, Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee (old and new), Chevy/GMC Tahoe and Suburban from the US. Volvo, Saab, MD E class (gas and diesel) from overseas. What ties all of these together ? In my opinion, the abilty to travel 200k+ miles without requireing much beyond routine maintenance. While Land Rovers are nice and have a Sloane Ranger cache, they are unreliable moneypits. I have several friends who own Land Rovers (Range Rover, Discovery, LR3). They all love them- when they run- and bemoan the fact that they are on a first name basis with the mechanics at the dealership and have the service manager on speed dial.

Our vehicles:
2000 GMC Yukon Denali
2002 MB E320 Wagon (which replaced a 1995 E320 wagon that was sold with 160k+miles).

My 15yr old will turn 16 in Sept. Right now the child is practising on a car formerly beloging to my father in law- a 1996 Ford Taurus station wagon. Once September comes around- we'll be looking for a 2000-01 Jeep Cherokee.

Best,

Ross


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Faulkner said:


> In my view, the BMW is a fine trad car. I am a practically daily Southwick, Robert Talbott, Gitman Bros, Bill's Khakis, and Alden wearer and a devoted BMW 5 series driver. Having an interest in, even an obsession with, trad clothes does not mean that one must drive a Buick (a very trad car, mind you -- and for many years the clear choice of well-bred doctors, lawyers, and merchants who did not want to drive a Cadillac) or a Wagoneer or old Land Rover.
> 
> Many cars can be "trad" -- certainly the 70-80's Mercedes E class and SLs, practically all Volvos, Buicks (very trad), Suburbans and many wagons and SUVs today and in the past, Land Rovers, Saabs, Porsches, Audis, and VWs. The BMW 2002 is old school trad, and the modern trad can feel very comfortable in the current version of most of the cars listed above and several others including almost every modern BMW on the road.


I'm carsitting a 1994 BMW 5 series this summer. It has a carphone!! It also has Harvard, Episcopal Academy, and Haverford decals, along with the requisite parking passes. How does that stack up?


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and throw an oddball into the mix. The 240 wagon was a kid hauler. I dare say that every trad who bought one back in the day bought it to haul the kids and/or dogs around with. It was safe and reliable and they were great cars. 
Today's modern equivalent isn't a wagon at all, it's a minivan, the Honda Odyssey. The wagons built today don't have the same ablility to haul around all your stuff like the 240 did. Fold that seat flat and you can fit at least 40 2x4s' in the back (I've done it), hook up a trailer and you can haul enough shingles to re-roof your house (done that too) Strap a canoe to the top and head out for day. The 240 was a truck disguised as a car. Modern wagons are cars that have a tiny bit more space. 
The Odyssey is the successor to the 240. It hauls people and stuff and can tow as much as the 240 and is reliable as can be. The upmarket models are as nice as a luxury car, or damn close. They're not cheap, they hold their value well, they run forever and they have a cult following. 
Honda changes the van around much more often than Volvo did of course but everybody does these day. I'm hoping to upgrade from my '95 to an '04 in the next couple of years. 
I've owned a 240 wagon. I've owned a Range Rover. I've been around a bunch of diesel MB's and more Jeeps and huge American cars than I can count. I'm casting my vote for the Odyssey.


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

A.Squire said:


> Dear me, please help. I just bought a new car and I'm afraid it's not very trad. What shall I do?
> 
> *M3 cab-Imola red.
> 
> **Do you think if I "pop" my collar it will help?--Ha, Ha, Ha!!!


No, S it will not. Don't you see that the only thing you can do is sell that incredibly enjoyable machine and get a Honda Odyssey.

There is no such thing as a contemporary trad car anymore - one thing that made the older models mentioned is that they weren't typically very popular outside of the 'trad' world. These days every contemporary vehicle mentioned thus far is popular with many and can't be associated with a single segment of the population. There was a time that more often than not a Series 2 LR or volvo or MG was owned by a 'ivy type'. Not anymore. I don't want the last word on this thread so I hope the next post is the last- it's officially been beaten to death now (and I am quite guilty of participating in that flogging).


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## Faulkner (Jun 24, 2006)

septa said:


> I'm carsitting a 1994 BMW 5 series this summer. It has a carphone!! It also has Harvard, Episcopal Academy, and Haverford decals, along with the requisite parking passes. How does that stack up?


Res Ipsa!


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## JeffC (May 28, 2006)

KentW said:


> I can't speak for all BMW models, but my 2002 530i (E39) has been as trouble-free as any Japanese car I've ever owned. "Full maintenance" is a plus, IMO.


Aye, but perception and reality aren't the same thing. Ford came in second in a recent reliability survey (read it in the paper this morning, they were right behind Porsche). However, I didn't quite understand the survey. It said car manufacturers average is 125 problems per 100 cars. Ford averaged 100, Porsche, 91. That seems bad.


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## HolyBull (May 10, 2007)

The ultimate Trad car of today has to be a Ford Grand Marquis or a Lincoln Town Car


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## patbrady2005 (Oct 4, 2005)

A trad car is whichever car you are driving while wearing Trad clothing.


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## Abe Frohman (Apr 29, 2007)

*Trad Cars*

I must have a pretty trad garage, 99 Audi A4 V6 Quattro (110K and still near perfect), 2000 LR Disco (Kent Green is pretty darn trad), and 78 Triumph Spitfire...


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

^sounds good to me, friend.

Would be really trad if you owned a Ur Quattro.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

Maserati will hopefully be my first car. (I plan on living in NYC so cars will be used as frequently as boats, both will be luxury consumption purchases)


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

If you don't stay off the computer at work that new Maserati may be a long time coming.


*nice choice, btw.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

A.Squire said:


> Would be really trad if you owned a Ur Quattro.


Are you talking about the orignal or some of the later models? A friend of mine just picked up a '95 S6.

Brian


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

The original series. The ones labeled Ur Quattro. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. (I rarely do)


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## Thornhill (May 14, 2006)

A.Squire said:


> The original series. The ones labeled Ur Quattro. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. (I rarely do)


You're right. That's the original.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

A.Squire said:


> The original series. The ones labeled Ur Quattro. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. (I rarely do)


Yup, that's the original. Nice, old school cars indeed.

Brian


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Has anyone mentioned the Audi A8, or better yet the S8? Very subtle, yet quite the piece of German engineering. I particularly like the '97- '03 versions. While I'm at it, I'll throw out the VW Phaeton just 'cause I like those Dubs 

Brian


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## enecks (Apr 25, 2007)

I once had a Land Rover Discovery, and I miss it quite a bit. It was black and had a lot of character (read: wear and tear). If it could have propelled itself further than 12 miles on one gallon of gasoline, I might still be driving it today. Alas, I traded it for an egg-shaped Civic.

Nice choice on the Maserati, Untilted. The early 00s models have taken a huge depreciation hit over the last few years, so they're actually far more affordable than their Ferrari cousins.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

This is it. End of discussion.


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## Andy S. (Mar 27, 2007)

My dad drives an identical example of this:










Which I consider the mack daddy.

Or, if you prefer the "CEO" alternative:


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

Horace said:


> What are the problems with the old Saabs? LIke the boxy 240? Anything. Maybe expensive to fix eh? I always thought they were built well? Maybe if you get lucky and buy it from the mythical old granny who only drove it to church or down to the general store every week...


old saabs break a lot. a 20 year old one will certainly have it's share of weird expensive problems. at least at some point.


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

Audi AllRoad, maybe?


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

Maybe this is getting a bit too psychological, but why do you think a person wants to drive a trad car, especially if they don't have a clear idea of what exactly that might be?


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Leaving the "contemporary" premise; what about these?














































Here's mine:










The Volvo was inherited from my grandfather - it's a 1983 240 DL. Salt-and-pepper tweed and black plastic interior. One fist-sized ding on the right wing, from when my mother killed a moose with it:










(I think I may have posted this on AAAC before, but I'll take a chance.)


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Lucky Strike said:


> Here's mine:
> 
> The Volvo was inherited from my grandfather - it's a 1983 240 DL. Salt-and-pepper tweed and black plastic interior. One fist-sized ding on the right wing, from when my mother killed a moose with it:


Great cars Strike. My first car was a Brown Volvo Wagon 79. Incredible car and created my love for the wagon. Still have a wagon and it ups my old man cred.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

When I was young in age the trad car for a young gentleman was MG, Corvette or Thunderbird


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

I know this thread has been beat to death, but as something of a car enthusiast, I feel compelled to add my 2 cents. 

Some of these posts really strike a chord with me, because in a perfect world (where cost of maintenance and time to deal with maintenance were not an issue) I probably would drive an old SAAB 900 or an old (much older) BMW. I have owned BMW, SAAB, and Volvo cars over the years, and always have enjoyed them. I like the way they look, and I like their classic styling. For the most part, I do not like the styling of European autos today (such as new BMW 7 series, etc.).

However, the fact of the matter is that the SAAB is just not a long-term reliable vehicle, IMO. And the newer models, that have cheaper interiors consisting of cheap GM parts, simply are not appealing. An older BMW could be a huge headache, if hasn't been properly maintained (as is the case with many used cars) and has maintenance issues.

Call me anti-Trad, but I recently bought a Lexus GS and love it. It obviously is not trad (although an old Lexus LS 400 might be --?), but it is fun to drive, reliable, and sharp looking. So much for owning Trad wheels.


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## Mr. Papa (Jun 15, 2007)

I almost bought a Grand Wagoneer once, but at 8 MPG, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. My SAAB 9000 was a nightmare ($3000 bill when I stopped in for an oil change one time) and my Jeep Cherokee Wagoneer (the small one with Wagoneer trim) was a great truck, but everything slowly broke on it until the 4WD went bad at 90K and the engine threw a rod at 128K. I enjoyed buying them, but I hated owning them, and the rest of the cars I own will most likely be Hondas or possibly Acuras--with the exception of a Mazda Miata, which I think of as the modern equivalent of the MG. Perhaps slightly more feminine somehow, which is what keeps me from buying one. I have my eye on the Honda S2000, but it's a bit pricey in comparison.

What about Alfa Romeo Spyders--are they not trad?


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## Tommy Jefferson (Jul 23, 2007)

2008 Crown Victoria of course.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=4081


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Danny said:


> old saabs break a lot. a 20 year old one will certainly have it's share of weird expensive problems. at least at some point.


Not sure what qualifies as "old" here. I drive a '97 with 100k+ miles and have had relatively few problems; certainly fewer than with our last Subaru.​EGF


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## Chris H (Oct 30, 2004)

*Audi A4 Avant*










We have owned one of these for the last eight years. It is comfortable, reliable and has room for our two large dogs.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

BMWs used to be trad, before iDrive and Chris Bangle.

The E39 (5-series from 1996-2004) - get 'em while you can.


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

egadfly said:


> Not sure what qualifies as "old" here. I drive a '97 with 100k+ miles and have had relatively few problems; certainly fewer than with our last Subaru.​EGF


I can't let this one go because I can't agree more. I, too, differ with the old saw about SAAB sob stories. I've been driving SAAB since 1985. To me, I would never really feel at home without one. I had a 2000 9-5 V6 (the low-compression turbo) wagon that was totaled by a three-ton pickup on Thanksgiving morning. I walked away with a bruised rib.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

zignatius said:


> I can't let this one go because I can't agree more. I, too, differ with the old saw about SAAB sob stories. I've been driving SAAB since 1985. To me, I would never really feel at home without one. I had a 2000 9-5 V6 (the low-compression turbo) wagon that was totaled by a three-ton pickup on Thanksgiving morning. I walked away with a bruised rib.


I had a 2000 Saab 9-5, which was totaled a couple of years ago. All that happened to me was that my coffee spilled all over my pants (damn cheesy cupholder).

Great cars. I really miss it. GM has completely screwed up the 9-5 nowadays, not to mention the rest of the line.


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## philm (Jun 17, 2007)

*Trad Car*

Funny, I was just thinking about this matter the other day. I think all of the right points about trad autos have been made. Where I live there is the only Corvette Plant in the world; and the trad Corvette folks gather here all of the time going back to the 1955 vette, which was the first of the genre.

Myself, I drive a 2002 Toyota Celica GS, which only has 37,000 miles on it. It fits real well in smaller parking places at work and in front, diagonally of my local trad clothier. It is also cheap to maintain. I know you don't see the connection, but I am looking at the future five years or so of use. Toyota, as some of you probably know, quit making them in 2002 so they will become a collector's item as time passes and that to me is trad.

I bought the first Mustang in the summer of 64 and if I had kept it, it would now be a collector's item. Would you include the 64 and 65 Mustangs in the trad auto class? I can see the red Mustang somewhere in the eastern US against a darkening sky with people around in Tweed Jackets and colorful Andover Shop scarves with their cheeks reddening; and the Mustang that they surround is taken almost as an item of apparel on that mid-October evening in 1965 just before the Age of Innocence ended.

Thanks for this thread. I enjoyed it.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

First year on my 2006 LR3 HSE this month, not a single problem (knock on wood!). 15k miles, including several very rough off road trips. Maybe I just seem to have gotten one of the good ones or maybe LR got the kinks in the LR3 out by year three of production?

My wife drives an XC90. No one feels this is Trad in the least? Odd what is and is not considered "trad".


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## philm (Jun 17, 2007)

*Trad Car*

Agree with the previous post: trad is all in the mind and, with the rules down as feelings, we can adapt as makes us feel precisely as we wish to.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

KentW said:


> I had a 2000 Saab 9-5, which was totaled a couple of years ago. All that happened to me was that my coffee spilled all over my pants (damn cheesy cupholder).
> 
> Great cars. I really miss it. GM has completely screwed up the 9-5 nowadays, not to mention the rest of the line.


That's my impression as well, and at least part of the reason why I'm not looking to replace it any time soon. I'm honestly not even sure what I would look at, as very few newer sedans appeal to me in the slightest. I will probably just drive this one into the ground.



Wayfarer said:


> My wife drives an XC90. No one feels this is Trad in the least? Odd what is and is not considered "trad".


We will be replacing my wife's wagon in the next six months or so, and the XC90 is at the top of my list of cars to check out. Are you happy with yours?

EGF


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

egadfly said:


> We will be replacing my wife's wagon in the next six months or so, and the XC90 is at the top of my list of cars to check out. Are you happy with yours?
> 
> EGF


My wife has been very happy with it and the only thing other than oil changes has been warranty replacement of a piece of trim and this last visit, at three years, for brake pads and tyres. The AWD makes it an extremely stable vehicle (outside of a sports car, I do not think I will ever own a vehicle not AWD again), the interior is comfy and not badly appointed. Her only con is a lack of interior storage space compartments. Cargo room is fine.


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## JordanW (Jan 8, 2007)

My very non-trad car:

2002 LS 4x4 Suburban hand me down from my father




As you can imagine, I get some perplexed looks being a twenty something driving such a family man's behemoth. The sorority belles here in town love it though! 

Flame away...


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

JordanW said:


> My very non-trad car:
> 
> 2002 LS 4x4 Suburban hand me down from my father
> 
> Flame away...


"Flame away?" Why? The 'Burban is a total trad-mobile (it's even listed in the OPH), especially with the DU sticker on the back window.


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## JordanW (Jan 8, 2007)

KentW said:


> ...(it's even listed in the OPH), especially with the DU sticker on the back window.


Thanks Kent.

I always thought the collective opinion around here was that the Suburban was "southern prep".


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

JordanW said:


> Flame away...


Okay. If it's untrad, it's untrad because of how much fuel it wastes. Once upon a time -- during the decade when OPH was being written -- most of us knew nothing about global warming and cared little about the supply and price of crude or where it comes from. Now we know better. Out here in Oregon, a Surburban is less about trad and more about scorched-Earth consumption.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

zignatius said:


> Once upon a time -- during the decade when OPH was being written -- most of us knew nothing about global warming and cared little about the supply and price of crude or where it comes from.


Sure we did. We'd just emerged from the "oil crisis" of the 1970's, which spawned (among other things), the VW Rabbit (also listed as a prepmobile in the OPH). The Suburban is to conspicuous consumption as the Rabbit is to reverse snobbery.


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

I hope I didn't sound too political or didactic. (Yikes.) Let's see if I can redeem myself. 

Yes, no one can deny that the Suburban was arch trad back in the day; I only meant to suggest that the world changes and our values evolve based on what we learn and discover.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

zignatius said:


> I hope I didn't sound too political or didactic. (Yikes.) Let's see if I can redeem myself.
> 
> Yes, no one can deny that the Suburban was arch trad back in the day; I only meant to suggest that the world changes and *our values evolve *based on what we learn and discover.


Strictly speaking, I am not sure evolution is Trad in the least!


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Strictly speaking, I am not sure evolution is Trad in the least!


The Mitsubishi Evolution is definitely _not_ trad.


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Strictly speaking, I am not sure evolution is Trad in the least!


But I trust learning is.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

JordanW said:


> My very non-trad car:
> 
> 2002 LS 4x4 Suburban hand me down from my father
> 
> ...


Party Mobile. Pay somebody to drive, and plan a one to two hour road trip to a fun but not so visited spot, and bring a girl and four other friends. Have some chosen drinks at the ready, and you have an all day party.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Party Mobile. Pay somebody to drive, and plan a one to two hour road trip to a fun but not so visited spot, *and bring a girl and four other friends.* Have some chosen *drinks* at the ready, and you have *an all day party*.


Say what?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Party Mobile. Pay somebody to drive, and plan a one to two hour road trip to a fun but not so visited spot, and bring a girl and four other friends. Have some chosen drinks at the ready, and you have an all day party.


We used to refer to such ventures as a "drive-about".


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## JordanW (Jan 8, 2007)

Wow. We have really drifted off course. 

:icon_smile:


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## philm (Jun 17, 2007)

To try to tie back in with a number of themes and subsequent debates in this thread, how about the black oldsmobile four-door sedan gas guzzler of the _Animal House_ fabled road trip?


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

egadfly said:


> Not sure what qualifies as "old" here. I drive a '97 with 100k+ miles and have had relatively few problems; certainly fewer than with our last Subaru.​EGF


old means pre GM in my book. dont get me wrong I love Saabs. I had an 89 9000.


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## Acacian (Jul 10, 2007)

Danny said:


> old means pre GM in my book. dont get me wrong I love Saabs. I had an 89 9000.


Ditto. I had a vintage 1972 Model 99 that had hundreds of thousands of miles on it (broken odometer, so who knows exactly...) and still ran great. It was a challenge to drive, since the *speedometer* was also broken and I didn't have the $$ to get it fixed at the time. This meant that you had to basically guess your speed on the highway and in town, hoping you were staying roughly around the speed limit.

As far as contemporary vehicles go, I can't see that one stands out as particularly trad compared to the rest of the herd. The ones that do stand out are sort of "contrived retro". I can't say that there is one that is organically trad (organic meaning "a natural outgrowth of traditional ideals" in this case).


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## Andy S. (Mar 27, 2007)

I'll throw a fratty twist in, which can certainly be derived from the preppy, therefore quite trad ancestry.

May I present my very own "Frathoe" (chevy tahoe, which is vastly used on/around college campuses by fratty people en route to frattastic activities)










Hopefully she will serve me well in my years of higher education.


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## anselmo1 (Dec 22, 2006)

Now this is a traditional car where traditional clothes are worn by the driver:


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## KMP (Jun 28, 2005)

I just bought my first car today. A brand new Volvo S60. Not quite the box of her tradly predecessors, but oh well, sometimes its just as good to think outside of the box.


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

anselmo1 said:


> Now this is a traditional car where traditional clothes are worn by the driver:


That is a very handsome automobile! Yours or on the wish list?


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## anselmo1 (Dec 22, 2006)

maxnharry said:


> That is a very handsome automobile! Yours or on the wish list?


Needless to say, it is on my wish list. I drive one of these:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Here is my (arguably) Trad-mobile. Not that I bought it for any possible Tradness, but I do enjoy it.










And one of the things I like about it? The views it takes me to:


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Coolidge24 said:


> And the XJ8, though it's really getting pricey.


Agreed.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Chris H said:


> We have owned one of these for the last eight years. It is comfortable, reliable and has room for our two large dogs.


This is on my (realistic) wish list, I'm going for a 1.8T Quattro when my 80 Quattro finally dies. I'm not *just* a VW guy, I'm also an Audi guy 

Brian


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## Lucky Strike (Feb 23, 2006)

Anyone familiar with the Volvo "Puppy" jeep?


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

I'm getting our new driver started in the right direction:

I've just bought our 16 year old a 2000 Jeep Cherokee.

I'll post a picture one of these days.

Best

Ross


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

tripreed said:


> This is it. End of discussion.
> 
> Trip,
> Although the LC site is very cool, I can't believe you bumped this idiotic thread of ours back to life. If only it were the "end of discussion".
> K


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## riveroaks (Jan 1, 2007)

*The new Trad car*

Bugatti:


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