# Trad in the movies.



## Flanderian

Of course, we need only go back to the genuine article from the '50's, '40's or '30's (Anyone remember #1 son?), but among the contemporary crop, what stands out? Spare me Metropolitan, claustrophobic and dull with colorless characters. 

My money's on The Good Shepherd. A pretty good film with, with very good clothes. True to life. Quality clothes worn by quality people. A treat for the eye.


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## EastVillageTrad

We've had discussions on this before, check the search function.

Opinions vary, I am kinda up in the air...


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## tonylumpkin

Morgan Freeman's character makes a pretty good trad appearance in "The Dark Knight".


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## Flanderian

EastVillageTrad said:


> We've had discussions on this before, check the search function.
> 
> Opinions vary, I am kinda up in the air...


Thank you, yes there was one on January 5th, I've found it.


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## Sartre

Just saw a re-run of The Accidental Tourist, pretty good trad garb in that movie.

tjs

P.S. On Metropolitan: how dare you! Claustrophobic, yes, but hardly colorless characters.


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## Zot!

Not exactly conteporary, but after the 60's, would be _Body Heat_ from '81. A lot of searsucker and other southern/summer trad staples. Kathleen Turner in her white dress, while not exactly trad, is also nice to look at. :devil:


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## AldenPyle

Though I loved _Barcelona _, I can't say I liked _Metropolitan_ that much. I basically agree with Flanderian. Claustrophobic was kind of the point, but the lead actor and the (very cute) actress who played Audrey Roget were stiff. Especially, after Eigemann leaves the scene, colorless is pretty on the nose. Probably, if I had seen it when I was younger, it might have meant more to me and surely its better than _St. Elmo_'s _Fire _or other John Hughes kind of stuff.


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## AldenPyle




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## RyanPatrick

Great minds. I was just going to post this one. One of my favorite movies, watched it last night.


AldenPyle said:


>


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## Flashy

"The Good Shepard" was a bit disappointing all around. Far better was TNT's production of Robert Littel's novel, "The Company". Great costumes, geat acting byt Alfred Molina and Michael Keaton as Jim Angelton. And Chis O'Donnell is just all around move convincing as the all-American, boy scout type, than Matt Damon.


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## A.Squire

Zot! said:


> Not exactly conteporary, but after the 60's, would be _Body Heat_ from '81. A lot of searsucker and other southern/summer trad staples. Kathleen Turner in her white dress, while not exactly trad, is also nice to look at. :devil:


I agree, but don't bother to look her up, she hasn't aged well.


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## Quay

Sure it's been discussed before but they keep making movies and people here keep seeing old movies for the first time. Always something to talk about over drinks. :icon_smile: The movie version of _The Lawrencevile Stories_ is ace. A fellow forum member told me about it recently and I finally found it on VHS through Ebay. Wonderful movie and definitely full of Trad things, even union suits, about the most old-fashioned undergarments one could wear this side of a cod piece.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Zot!

A.Squire said:


> I agree, but don't bother to look her up, she hasn't aged well.


Yes, I was just discussing that with somebody recently. Especially when compared with the other great neo-noir femme fatal, Faye Dunaway.


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## AldenPyle

Anybody seen this one?


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## DiogenesClub

When Berkley's landlord asks, "You're not one of those agitators, those outside agitators?" that quote is etched forever in my memory. It is right up there with him pounding on the glass in the church. Downright primal! Turner needs to take the air of Gloria Swanson in Sunset Blvd., "I am big. It's the pictures that got small."


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## Zot!

DiogenesClub said:


> When Berkley's landlord asks, "You're not one of those agitators, those outside agitators?" that quote is etched forever in my memory. It is right up there with him pounding on the glass in the church. Downright primal! Turner needs to take the air of Gloria Swanson in Sunset Blvd., "I am big. It's the pictures that got small."


I always remember Ben waving the cross around to keep the wedding party at bay, before using it to block the door shut. The film also contains some nice scenes of the now demolished Ambassador Hotel. I'm not normally a mean-spirited person, but if a city _voluntarily _abuses its architectural treasures that way (see also the current state of the famous Brown Derby "hat") it almost _deserves_ to loose them in the Big One. At one point I used to stick up for LA when people around the Bay Area made smart remarks about it, but every now and then they do something so boneheaded it makes it impossible to defend them.


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## DiogenesClub

I love the temperatures and most of the attitudes. I hate to hear that about the Ambassador being sacrificed in the name of "progress."


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## pvpatty

Has anyone else seen the movie Rushmore? )

A fairly trad movie, I think. Many tweeds, some bows, blazers, Ivy League-type school. A good film too.


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## Tom Buchanan

Animal House! 

Pure ivy league trad goodness.


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## TMMKC

How could we forget the truly awful "B" comedy _"Making the Grade"_ starring Judd Nelson, Gordon Jump and Andrew Dice Clay? This movie is so bad, it's good. I even own a copy as a guilty pleasure. Great trad clothes, though.

*Caddy*: Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like, yes it is! It's slicing toward the elm trees! 
*Palmer Woodrow*: Who are you, Curt f**king Gowdy?


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## TMMKC

A.Squire said:


> I agree, but don't bother to look her up, she hasn't aged well.


YIKES! She was pure sex in Body Heat. Wow...stay away from the Krispy Kremes, Kathleen.


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## Acct2000

Possibly "American Graffiti" for the more casual stuff?


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## Acacian

Quay said:


> The movie version of _The Lawrencevile Stories_ is ace. A fellow forum member told me about it recently and I finally found it on VHS through Ebay. Wonderful movie and definitely full of Trad things, even union suits...


Glad you were able to track it down! It really is right up there with the best of the trad films.


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## Zot!

I thought of this old thread upon seeing _Divorce American Style_ on a cable movie chanel this evening. This film came out in 1967, maybe the last year or so of trad dominance in the 'burbs (here Los Angeles), before everything started to go haywire. Unfortunately I can't find any pictures that would really demonstrate how the look is shown in the film, but this film really plays almost like a satyrical counterpoint to _Mad Men_.


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## C. Sharp

.


AldenPyle said:


> Anybody seen this one?


Yes,
Jazz on a Summers day 1960 filmed at Newport 1958. I went back and watched it again after someone asked a question about TRAD and Jazz in a different thread. You can see the whole movie here https://www.joost.com/37rnezg/t/Jazz-On-A-Summers Day Hope it is ok to mention it, I have no idea what is legal what copyrighted etc. 
It was directed by Bert Stern the fashion photographer who gave us Marilyn Monroe's "Last Sitting" I saw this when I was young and it still reaches me on a subconscious level. They will need to put a waring label on this one and keep it away from minors or risk the youth of America become uncontrolled chain smoking jazz devotees with a taste for Reinhold beer and any IVY wardrobe:icon_smile_wink: The people are beautiful in this movie. They are Iconic like an old RL ad but completely natural. Here is the You Tube Teaser. 



I think TIN TIN knows this movie so I would defer to him for more information.


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## closerlook

though the point is well taken for the purposes of this thread, it should be pointed out that Metropolitan's bland characters and forced discourse operates on a strong sense of irony, resulting in what seems a set of personality-lacking individuals.

anyway, back to trad on film.
The movie 21 features a few scenes that take place at J. Pess, Cambridge


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## Mannix

AldenPyle said:


>


That's a fantastic movie! I loves me some Anne Bancroft, she's one hott cougar!


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## C. Sharp

pvpatty said:


> Has anyone else seen the movie Rushmore? )
> 
> A fairly trad movie, I think. Many tweeds, some bows, blazers, Ivy League-type school. A good film too.


When I first saw this movie I said that kids wearing a WASP football tie.
https://www.bensilver.com/fs_storefront.asp?root=1&show=12

I like the exchange about the OR Scrubs :icon_smile_wink:

https://www.spike.com/video/rushmore/2377169


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## Thomas Hart

Zot! said:


> I always remember Ben waving the cross around to keep the wedding party at bay, before using it to block the door shut. The film also contains some nice scenes of the now demolished Ambassador Hotel. I'm not normally a mean-spirited person, but if a city _voluntarily _abuses its architectural treasures that way (see also the current state of the famous Brown Derby "hat") it almost _deserves_ to loose them in the Big One. At one point I used to stick up for LA when people around the Bay Area made smart remarks about it, but every now and then they do something so boneheaded it makes it impossible to defend them.


LA is a Terrible Place. They are a lesson in how not to plan a city, how to build _terrible_ buildings. New York (and San Francisco, for that matter) has done a much better job. But, then again I was raised to hate that Terrible Place and think NY was superior.

For a more on topic bit, How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying features Robert Morse (who plays Bert Cooper in Mad Men) in some pretty Tradly clothing.


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## Beefeater

Some tradly garb in the movie "Revolutionary Road" that's just come out. Depressing movie, but some good period stuff.


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## Zot!

Beefeater said:


> Some tradly garb in the movie "Revolutionary Road" that's just come out. Depressing movie, but some good period stuff.


I read an interesting article where somebody -maybe the critic or even the director- was complaining about how everybody's comparing this to _Mad Men. _His point was, _Mad Men_ is very much about capturing the early 60's, whereas this is about epitomizing the late 50's. I haven't seen the film, so I can't really say. Did you pick up on what he was talking about?


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## Beefeater

Zot! said:


> I read an interesting article where somebody -maybe the critic or even the director- was complaining about how everybody's comparing this to _Mad Men. _His point was, _Mad Men_ is very much about capturing the early 60's, whereas this is about epitomizing the late 50's. I haven't seen the film, so I can't really say. Did you pick up on what he was talking about?


Yeah, I felt the costume design was more early 60s (especially in the casual dress scenes), but I don't agree with "epitomizing" (I realize not your word) the 50s as necessarily being a valid criticism as the movie was much more nuanced than that.

I can definitely see people creating comparisons/contrasts to "Mad Men" vis a vis the clothing aspect, though I've never seen an episode of it myself but know of the show and know somewhat of its premise. I think a lot of folks tend to blur the 50s-60s periods of dress, and I can see why, especially given how much time has elapsed. But, it's one more reason why I like this forum: there are still fellas that know the difference.

Edit: I guess if Sam Mendes uses "epitomize" then it probably does carry some weight since he directed the movie. Not having read the article, I will hold my judgement until further notice!


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays

I'm a big tent trad (or, more specifically, unsure as to what trad exactly is) but I really liked the costume in _Benjamin Button_.
Lots of cool classic mid-century American stuff, very _A Continuous Lean_.


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## Jovan

pvpatty said:


> Has anyone else seen the movie Rushmore? )
> 
> A fairly trad movie, I think. Many tweeds, some bows, blazers, Ivy League-type school. A good film too.


That's one of my favourite movies! I dug the schoolboy look of Max, even if he was considered "dorky" by his classmates.


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## C. Sharp

I would like to offer a little levity today. My Trad movie pick is Gremlins 2. Offered because of the Tony Randall Brain Gremlin. An erudite Tweedy, pipe smoker. :icon_smile_wink:

The interview video We want what everyone wants...Civilization






Transcript of Brain's interview 

Brain's advice for difficult economic times 





Brain wants to talk-ethnic group those of a nocturnal persuasion


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## AldenPyle

*Walk Don't Run*


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## Flanderian

*Married Life*

Married Life needs to be added to the list. It is a fine small film from 2007. It has a great period wardrobe of traditional men's clothing.

The following link offers thumbnails. The first 14 are characters in costume. The remainder are just glamour shots of the actors and can be ignored.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804505/mediaindex


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## closerlook

Flanderian said:


> Married Life needs to be added to the list. It is a fine small film from 2007. It has a great period wardrobe of traditional men's clothing.
> 
> The following link offers thumbnails. The first 14 are characters in costume. The remainder are just glamour shots of the actors and can be ignored.
> 
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804505/mediaindex


looks like at some point the movie ends up in the 70's - wide open collars, dark button downs over light colored sportcoats.

main character (it seems) has trad going on.


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## Jovan

AldenPyle said:


>


Both of those men's looks are pretty cool in their own way.


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## Brooksfan

The original Dirty Harry c. 1971.

Harper-Paul Newman rocked a ss seersucker shirt as I remember. 

Bullitt-McQueen sported chukka boots and a pretty neat herringbone jacket, with a SB tan raincoat, albeit over a black turtleneck.


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## Flanderian

closerlook said:


> looks like at some point the movie ends up in the 70's - wide open collars, dark button downs over light colored sportcoats.
> 
> main character (it seems) has trad going on.


If you are referring to this -

https://www.worstpreviews.com/images/photos/marriedlife/marriedlife1.jpg

you're a bit mistaken. The film ostensibly takes place in the '40's, though it looked more like what I remember being worn in the early '50's. This particular "look" was worn from the '30's through the '50's, and can be seen in a photo of Gary Cooper in a publicity from the '30's on through to 1950's photos of Oxford University students.


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## Naval Gent

AldenPyle said:


>


Peter-Son, before he join Green Beret!

Scott


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## P Hudson

I just watched all three Bourne movies. Most of the deskbound spies were wearing OCBDs with long, nice rolling collars, even with suits. And all the trousers had plain fronts. 

The clothes become some sort of metaphor. The "bad guys" wore their trad collars, while Bourne never once in 6 hours of cinema wears a shirt or a jacket with a collar.


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## closerlook

Flanderian said:


> If you are referring to this -
> 
> https://www.worstpreviews.com/images/photos/marriedlife/marriedlife1.jpg
> 
> you're a bit mistaken. The film ostensibly takes place in the '40's, though it looked more like what I remember being worn in the early '50's. This particular "look" was worn from the '30's through the '50's, and can be seen in a photo of Gary Cooper in a publicity from the '30's on through to 1950's photos of Oxford University students.


Interesting!


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## dukekook

C. Sharp said:


> .
> 
> Yes,
> Jazz on a Summers day 1960 filmed at Newport 1958. I went back and watched it again after someone asked a question about TRAD and Jazz in a different thread. You can see the whole movie here https://www.joost.com/37rnezg/t/Jazz-On-A-Summers Day Hope it is ok to mention it, I have no idea what is legal what copyrighted etc.
> It was directed by Bert Stern the fashion photographer who gave us Marilyn Monroe's "Last Sitting" I saw this when I was young and it still reaches me on a subconscious level. They will need to put a waring label on this one and keep it away from minors or risk the youth of America become uncontrolled chain smoking jazz devotees with a taste for Reinhold beer and any IVY wardrobe:icon_smile_wink: The people are beautiful in this movie. They are Iconic like an old RL ad but completely natural. Here is the You Tube Teaser.
> 
> 
> 
> I think TIN TIN knows this movie so I would defer to him for more information.


 This movie is also downloadable from Amazon.com for $7.99, but you have to use their Player to enforce the DRM. I have been enjoying this movie for several weeks now in the Amazon player. I think that, in addition to what has already been said about the Trad theme in all the clothing, it is an excellent primer for the younger Trad-sympathetic on what works and what doesn't work. It helps that it is set during the summer, because you see the full range of possibilities from guys in tweed to the super-Trad yachting crowd both during the day and at night. You also see how casual dress needn't be sloppy or ill-fitting.


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## Flanderian

Just remembered another, _The Amazing Mr. Ripley._ A very good film, and one I'm fond of. Surprised I had forgotten what a great traditional wardrobe it has.


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## AldenPyle

One more Hutton. I wish they would put out Ellery Queen on DVD.


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## C. Sharp

lockjaw said:


> This movie is also downloadable from Amazon.com for $7.99, but you have to use their Player to enforce the DRM. I have been enjoying this movie for several weeks now in the Amazon player. I think that, in addition to what has already been said about the Trad theme in all the clothing, it is an excellent primer for the younger Trad-sympathetic on what works and what doesn't work. It helps that it is set during the summer, because you see the full range of possibilities from guys in tweed to the super-Trad yachting crowd both during the day and at night. You also see how casual dress needn't be sloppy or ill-fitting.


Thanks for commenting on my original post. Just wanted to add these links https://thetrad.blogspot.com/2008/07/1958-newport-jazz-festival.html

https://acontinuouslean.com/2008/08/21/1958-newport-jazz-festival/


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## chadn2000

Flanderian said:


> Just remembered another, _The Amazing Mr. Ripley._ A very good film, and one I'm fond of. Surprised I had forgotten what a great traditional wardrobe it has.


It's called _The *Talented* Mr. Ripley_. Get it right or I will have you removed from the forum.


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## Flanderian

cenelson43 said:


> It's called _The *Talented* Mr. Ripley_. Get it right or I will have you removed from the forum.


Yikes! And so it is. Must beg forgiveness for yet another senior moment. A superb film from a book in the same series, though absent a traditional wardrobe, is Ripley's Game. Like it so well I must remember to buy it. (Save a lot of money this way. :icon_smile_big It's a much smaller production, but beautifully done.


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## Jovan

I wish there were better photos of the suit available.


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## gtsecc

Jovan said:


> I wish there were better photos of the suit available.


North by Northwest
How bout them shades?


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## Jovan

I've seen North by Northwest, but I wish there were better pictures on the internet.


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## srivats

Jovan said:


> I wish there were better photos of the suit available.


Here you go: click on the pics for *MUCH BIGGER* versions ... one of the finest suits I've seen on the silver screen; undarted, unvented and most elegant. He wears it really well too. The trouser break is simply perfect.









And a few in color:







To settle a really old debate on AAAC - CG wears *tasseled loafers *(not a penny!) in the climax scenes:


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## srivats

More pics (click for *bigger* versions):

Sean Connery in Goldfinger:



Miscelleaneous Bogart pics:


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## srivats

Being a big fan of old movies, I have collected a massive collection of pics from plain ol' google over the years - I'll post some more of my favourites here later on.

For now, more cary grant (including DB and black tie):



https://imgur.com/UNoA6.jpg


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## AldenPyle

Nice belt.


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## Joe Beamish

Cary Grant is an example of someone actually getting better looking with age.


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## rl1856

srivats said:


> Here you go: click on the pics for *MUCH BIGGER* versions ...
> 
> 
> 
> Don and Betty Draper anyone ? I think this is the archetype for the look of both characters.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Ross


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## mjo_1

Tom Cruise's dress in Risky Business is a great example of 80's preppy style. Wish there were better pics available online. His outfit when dropping his parents off at the airport is my favorite - Blue uni stripe OCBD, red shetland, levis, and a beat up pair of sperrys. Makes me want to pull the trigger on a red shetland this winter!


Best,

Michael


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## AldenPyle

mjo_1 said:


> Tom Cruise's dress in Risky Business is a great example of 80's preppy style. Wish there were better pics available online. His outfit when dropping his parents off at the airport is my favorite - Blue uni stripe OCBD, red shetland, levis, and a beat up pair of sperrys. Makes me want to pull the trigger on a red shetland this winter!


Definitely, what we were aiming for in 1983.


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## Ron_A

Great Risky Business pics -- it is such a classic. Thanks for posting. Reminds me of my junior high/high school days, when everyone in the Chicago suburbs (well okay, not everyone) dressed like this.


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## sowilson

AldenPyle said:


> Definitely, what we were aiming for in 1983.


The look or Rebecca De Mornay?


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## AldenPyle

sowilson said:


> The look or Rebecca De Mornay?


Both perhaps. There is indeed a good pick of Cruise in a very preppy cream shetland/burgandy cords outfit that cant be found if you have Safe Search on Google images. I strongly recommend it.


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## Cruiser

AldenPyle said:


> Definitely, what we were aiming for in 1983.


Just for fun I went back into my own personal archives to see if I could find something from 1983. All I found was this picture of me with my two brothers. I guess we weren't exactly "trad" but I suspect very typical. :icon_smile:










Cruiser


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## Jovan

Whoa, did I steal my high school hair from Tom Cruise or is it the other way around? :icon_smile_big:


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## P Hudson

There sure are a lot of "Trad in the Movies" threads.

My wife and I made our annual trek to the cinema and saw Moneyball. One of the characters is from Yale and wears a blue-blazer-and-buttoned-down-collar-with-repp-ties wardrobe throughout. He looks like a bit of a slob, with his khakis pooled over his shoes, but I like his choices.


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## JDC

My first thought on this was Animal House. Definitive proof I was born 40 years too late:









"Mine's bigger than that."


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## Youthful Repp-robate

Bumping an older thread here, but I reckon it's worth it for Bill Murray in madras pants throwing a burgundy loafer at Edward Norton.

https://www.avclub.com/articles/moonrise-kingdom,67604/


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## hardline_42

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> Bumping an older thread here, but I reckon it's worth it for Bill Murray in madras pants throwing a burgundy loafer at Edward Norton.
> 
> https://www.avclub.com/articles/moonrise-kingdom,67604/


Gotta love Wes Anderson. I love watching The Royal Tennenbaums just for the clothes. It's probably been mentioned in the thread, but the young (and older) Chas Tenenbaum character wears a grey tweed suit and has a collection of identical blue OCBDs and A&S repp ties.


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## Youthful Repp-robate

hardline_42 said:


> Gotta love Wes Anderson. I love watching The Royal Tennenbaums just for the clothes. It's probably been mentioned in the thread, but the young (and older) Chas Tenenbaum character wears a grey tweed suit and has a collection of identical blue OCBDs and A&S repp ties.


He's probably my favorite filmmaker. I think The Royal Tenenbaums was the first place I noticed a 3/2 roll, too.

If I can switch to bragging for a moment, in my last short film I put an actor in a J. Press shirt (from the warehouse sale) and P3 frames. The overall effect wasn't trad, but it worked for the character and I wouldn't have been able to do it without this forum.


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## Jovan

Nice. I've got to see that one.


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## Hardiw1

More from Animal House


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## Hardiw1

3/2 blazer with patch pockets from Wedding Crashers


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## Bermuda

alot of preppy clothing in wedding crashers. it's on TBS right now actually


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## Jovan

Too bad the guys wearing Trad clothing in the last two movies are complete jerkwads!


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## Bermuda

the main characters of Wedding Crashers are the dirty ones though. Lying about everything


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## Jovan

They redeem themselves in the end. Can't be said about Bradley Cooper and his seemingly permanent five o'clock stubble.


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## Hardiw1

Even more from Animal House


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## Jovan

_Animal House_'s wardrobe and hair was pretty inaccurate to the year it was set in many ways, but there are some decent looks nonetheless.


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## rwaldron

I watched Animal House last night, for the first time since becoming active on this forum. I spent the whole time drooling over the clothing (and sometimes the women).


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## AldenPyle




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## Conservative87

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0qvpcfYFHcw/maxresdefault.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/R9R_UI0St0Q/maxresdefault.jpg

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.ne...m54s141.png/revision/latest?cb=20130405200328

Godfather Trad


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## SG_67

^ we never did see him in his nice Ivy League suit did we? Badabing!!!


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## Dmontez

Am I the only one that see a nude redhead in post #56?


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## SG_67

^that wasn't trad?


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## FJW

Dmontez said:


> Am I the only one that see a nude redhead in post #56?


I think that's just to see if we're paying attention.


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## SlideGuitarist

SG_67 said:


> ^ we never did see him in his nice Ivy League suit did we? Badabing!!!


There are some horrible long point collars in that movie, to say nothing of Joey's collars in Goodfellas.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## SG_67

^ I remember Goodfellas. Yes, the collars were terrible. 

On the other hand, Sonny was wearing some sweet spectators when he beat the crap out of Carlo.


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## SG_67




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## AldenPyle

Conservative87 said:


> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0qvpcfYFHcw/maxresdefault.jpg
> 
> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/R9R_UI0St0Q/maxresdefault.jpg
> 
> https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.ne...m54s141.png/revision/latest?cb=20130405200328
> 
> Godfather Trad




















Godfather II Trad


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## ouinon

Scent of a Woman (1992)


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## Tom Buchanan

I watched The Intern on an airplane recently. The movie stars Robert DeNiro and Anne Hathaway.

DeNiro's OCBDs looked terrific, with a long collar and great roll. (I noticed when I wasnt admiring Anne Hathaway generally). DeNiro plays the solid, old school male character in contrast to the casual, boy-like men at the internet start-up run by Hathaway.

The wardrobe designer is on record saying they tried several designers on him, but went with Brooks Brothers and Hickey Freeman. While his suits are not sack cuts, the shoulder is very natural and the OCBDs are great.

It was nice to see trad-ish clothing used to signal a character as solid and competent.

https://thetake.com/product/90640/r...others-madison-fit-brookscool-suit-the-intern


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## ran23

Today I saw 'Women He's Undressed.' 2015 The legendary costume designer, Orry-Kelly. This was during Hollywood's Golden Age, with clips from Humphrey Bogart, Marilyn Monroe, Bette Davis and Rosalind Russell. this was a selection of the Ashland Film Festival (Oregon, USA)


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## Himself

Diner had great clothes:


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## Fading Fast

Recently saw part of 1966's "Any Wednesday" (which has a ton of trad / Ivy clothing - and a horribly dated script even for '66) and caught Dean Jones' sport coat which is a 3/2* sack with a swelled edge and patch pockets, but no vent that I could see. Unfortunately, this is the best pic of it I could find:










I was surprised to see that the sport coat didn't have any vent(s).

You'll also notice he's wearing a wool tie (pretty sure), high rise trousers and an OCBD with a decent roll.

* 90% sure it's 3/2 as it definitely has the right roll and I'm pretty sure I saw the third button hole on the lapel.


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## gamma68

I'm not seeing a third button on that jacket...(click to enlarge).


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## Fading Fast

⇧ I thought I saw it, but wasn't sure - which is why I put an asterisk on it. That isn't so odd to me, but the lack of a vent seemed more off - or was that not uncommon then?


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## ran23

I just watched Live by Night, now I want a Linen Suit.


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## gamma68

Fading Fast said:


> ⇧ I thought I saw it, but wasn't sure - which is why I put an asterisk on it. That isn't so odd to me, but the lack of a vent seemed more off - or was that not uncommon then?


Is his character European?


----------



## Fading Fast

gamma68 said:


> Is his character European?


MidWest. He came into the "Big City" for a few days from, maybe Kansas (I don't remember which state), and they definitely dressed him "less sophisticated" than the sharper looking, suit-wearing NY businessman he's competing with.


----------



## gamma68

Hmmm, the ventless jacket doesn't make sense. I associate that with Continental European jackets.


----------



## Bishop of Briggs

George Peppard in "Breakfast At Tiffany's".


----------



## Bishop of Briggs




----------



## Bishop of Briggs

More Peppard


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## Bishop of Briggs




----------



## Howard

The Legend Of Lizzie Borden


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Could Lizzie Borden be considered a viable candidate for thew Trad Girlfriend thread? If so, that really cuts it!  LOL.


----------



## AldenPyle

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Could Lizzie Borden be considered a viable candidate for thew Trad Girlfriend thread? If so, that really cuts it!  LOL.


Yes


----------



## Fading Fast

Bishop of Briggs said:


> George Peppard in "Breakfast At Tiffany's".





Bishop of Briggs said:


> Bishop of Briggs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bishop of Briggs said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Peppard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bishop of Briggs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You are spot on as in "Breakfast at Tiffany's," Peppard's wardrobe - which actually plays a small part in the movie's plot as it is funded by the women that is "keeping" him - is very trad and very cool.


----------



## eagle2250

^^
So you are telling us Peppard's wardrobe is Trad, but the procurement approach to acquiring same is not? Having never thought about the movie in that degree of detail, I find myself entertained by and in complete agreement with your conclusions! Perhaps so many of us have been going about it all wrong for so many years. LOL.


----------



## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> So you are telling us Peppard's wardrobe is Trad, but the procurement approach to acquiring same is not? Having never thought about the movie in that degree of detail, I find myself entertained by and in complete agreement with your conclusions! Perhaps so many of us have been going about it all wrong for so many years. LOL.


My girlfriend and I have a normal relationship for today's world - we both work to support us. That said, one of the first gifts she ever bought me was a MTM sport coat as she quickly got that I was into clothes and wanted to do something special for me as I had never had a MTM item before.

Clearly, nothing like George Peppard's fully stocked wardrobe (and fully decorated apartment) by his woman "friend," but that's as close as I'll ever get. At the end of the movie, when Peppard is leaving his woman "friend," if I was him (and paraphrasing another classic movie), I'd "leave the furniture and take the clothes."


----------



## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> So you are telling us Peppard's wardrobe is Trad, but the procurement approach to acquiring same is not? Having never thought about the movie in that degree of detail, I find myself entertained by and in complete agreement with your conclusions! Perhaps so many of us have been going about it all wrong for so many years. LOL.


It's funny, the book the movie is based on is very dark and the movie is darker than it appears on the surface. It was just the standards of the time that made them adumbrate the rougher parts in the film.

Calling it as it is, Holly Golightly is a high-priced call girl who ran away from a desolate life as the child bride to an older man (decent guy, but much older, widowed with young children and poor himself) - which she became perforce to find food and shelter for her, by then, orphaned and dirt-poor brother and herself. It's strongly hinted that the brother might be mentally challenged as well.

She also is a low level mob bag man who is paid to bring information in and out of prison for a mafia boss in jail. We know less about Peppard, but he is a young author who had modest early success, but now has writer's block and makes his "living" as a gigolo to a wealthy older woman.

These are young broken people in desperate situations who survive psychologically by creating the appearance of success and a carefree attitude; but in truth, life has been grinding them down and they are close to mental and physical exhaustion and breakdown.

I always laugh when people who aren't familiar with the film or who missed its real story, see it as a light or fun movie about living in New York and falling in love.

All that said, I'd love to have several items from Peppard's wardrobe (his grey herringbone sport coat in particular). And, heck, whatever the reality, Hepburn - in her black evening dress, long gloves, swirled hair and tiara, pearls, sunglasses and croissant in hand - standing in front of Tiffany's is the perfect picture of insouciant elegance.


----------



## Howard

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Could Lizzie Borden be considered a viable candidate for thew Trad Girlfriend thread? If so, that really cuts it!  LOL.


I thought this was about Trad In The Movies? So I gave an example of The Victorian Era back during The 1890's.


----------



## FLMike

Howard said:


> I thought this was about Trad In The Movies? So I gave an example of The Victorian Era back during The 1890's.


Trad was in the mid-1900's.


----------



## Pentheos

Howard said:


> I thought this was about Trad In The Movies? So I gave an example of The Victorian Era back during The 1890's.


Still running the long con -- must be amusing.


----------



## Shaver

Pentheos said:


> Still running the long con -- must be amusing.


I am extremely dubious that this might be the case. It seems implausible that anyone might expend the energy required to submit nigh on 14,000 posts, over 13 years, as a façade but with no possible yield. Further, the aggregate of Big 'H's' communiqués provide a convincing substantiation for his self-proclaimed persona. Occam's Razor obliges us - in the absence of any apparent benefit from the proposed subterfuge - to consider our AAAC mascot at face value.


----------



## Bishop of Briggs

Ryan O'Neal


----------



## Howard

FLMike said:


> Trad was in the mid-1900's.


Sorry would you like me to delete it?


----------



## Howard

Shaver said:


> I am extremely dubious that this might be the case. It seems implausible that anyone might expend the energy required to submit nigh on 14,000 posts, over 13 years, as a façade but with no possible yield. Further, the aggregate of Big 'H's' communiqués provide a convincing substantiation for his self-proclaimed persona. Occam's Razor obliges us - in the absence of any apparent benefit from the proposed subterfuge - to consider our AAAC mascot at face value.


I'm not a troll, I just thought we discussed it a long time ago, Why is that guy bringing it up again? I am an official member.


----------



## Shaver

Howard said:


> I'm not a troll, I just thought we discussed it a long time ago, Why is that guy bringing it up again? I am an official member.


You are not only an official member, Howard, you are also a well liked member.

AAAC would not be the same without you.

:beer:


----------



## Charles Dana

Howard said:


> Sorry would you like me to delete it?


Howard, you never have to delete anything. Carry on.


----------



## Shaver

^ You do seem rather keen to be banned again, which would be a pity.


----------



## FLMike

Howard said:


> Sorry would you like me to delete it?


No need. Just sharing some information with you.


----------



## AldenPyle

Fading Fast said:


> It's funny, the book the movie is based on is very dark and the movie is darker than it appears on the surface.


Funny, I just watched Barefoot in the Park for the first time and I was thinking the exact save about that movie. Although it seemed to be a light-hearted romantic comedy by intention, it actually seemed pretty dark if taken literally


----------



## Charles Dana

AldenPyle said:


> I just watched Barefoot in the Park for the first time....


Robert Redford's wardrobe in Barefoot in the Park has justifiably been cited as fine examples of Tradly goodness. And thanks to Redford's looks and acting ability, he did look as if he belonged in those suits.

But that was all Hollywood illusion. The reality was much different. Redford has never liked dressing up; he's always preferred western ranch clothes, even long before the Sundance years. (He attended-but did not graduate from-the University of Colorado in Boulder.)

According to the website TCM (Turner Classic Movies), Gene Saks-who directed Barefoot in the Park-stated that Redford hated the suits he had to wear in that movie and was relieved whenever he could take a break from filming; during those breaks, Redford would put on a cowboy hat and cowboy boots so that everyone on the set could see who he really was.


----------



## Howard

FLMike said:


> No need. Just sharing some information with you.


It's OK, Thanks for sharing the information.


----------



## Howard

Shaver said:


> You are not only an official member, Howard, you are also a well liked member.
> 
> AAAC would not be the same without you.
> 
> :beer:


Thank You I appreciate it.


----------



## Fading Fast

AldenPyle said:


> Funny, I just watched Barefoot in the Park for the first time and I was thinking the exact save about that movie. Although it seemed to be a light-hearted romantic comedy by intention, it actually seemed pretty dark if taken literally


Agreed, like "Breakfast at Tiffany's," it's another example of a movie that reads light or fun on the surface, but the underlying issues are pretty dark. These type of movies, IMHO, were some of the signs that things were changing in movie-land in the early / mid '60s.

Not only were there dark movies like "The Apartment" (great Trad clothes) and "The Days of Wine and Roses" already out, but even the "sweeter" "Rom-Coms" were getting dark. However, all of these had great Trad / Ivy clothes in them - which sometimes I find myself paying more attention to than the movie itself.

Maybe I'm bias because of her Vietnam actions, but Jane Fonda's acting in movies like "Barefoot in the Park" or "Any Wednesday" grates on me as she, IMHO, overacts and sounds shrill in many scenes.


----------



## AldenPyle

Fading Fast said:


> Agreed, like
> 
> Maybe I'm bias because of her Vietnam actions, but Jane Fonda's acting in movies like "Barefoot in the Park" or "Any Wednesday" grates on me as she, IMHO, overacts and sounds shrill in many scenes.


Actually, that was the darkness I was talking about. As performed, Jane Fonda's young bride seemed crazy not cute, literally in the midst of a manic high. I don't think that was Neil Simon's intention at all. So either that was bad acting on Fonda's part or very good acting (her mother was bipolar).


----------



## Fading Fast

AldenPyle said:


> Actually, that was the darkness I was talking about. As performed, Jane Fonda's young bride seemed crazy not cute, literally in the midst of a manic high. I don't think that was Neil Simon's intention at all. So either that was bad acting on Fonda's part or very good acting (her mother was bipolar).


Agreed. Have you seen "Any Wednesday" (great Trad/Ivy clothes movie, especially the role played by Dean Jones)? Fonda has that same unhinged crazy going on where, almost out of nowhere, she goes all manic emotional and / or starts crying. IMHO, it's bad acting.

As to "Barefoot in the Park," I tell my girlfriend every time we watch that movie that if I was Redford, I'd have left Fonda so fast your head would spin - that is a "cut your losses early" opportunity if ever there was one.


----------



## eagle2250

^^
I have not watched a Jane Fonda movie since her Hanoi Jane days. LOL, I cannot see where I have missed a thing!


----------



## gamma68

Nothing "Trad" here but Jane Fonda is pretty fetching:


----------



## SG_67

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> I have not watched a Jane Fonda movie since her Hanoi Jane days. LOL, I cannot see where I have missed a thing!


I have to agree with you on that. She's not a particularly compelling actress. At least not enough for me to overlook her personal and political shenanigans. If her last name weren't Fonda, I'm not sure she would have had much of a career.


----------



## AldenPyle

I have to admit I am a bit intrigued by the idea that she is not a good actress. I doubt they will be streaming Any Wednesday soon, but I did just watch "The Chase". James Fox is sporting a pretty slick Ivy look as the son of a small town Texas rich man








Fonda is terrible in this movie too, but I think the blame has to go to the script on this one. Brando, Redford, Fox, Duvall, E.G. Marshall among others are bad in this bad movie. They can't all be bad actors.



Fading Fast said:


> Agreed. Have you seen "Any Wednesday" (great Trad/Ivy clothes movie, especially the role played by Dean Jones)? Fonda has that same unhinged crazy going on where, almost out of nowhere, she goes all manic emotional and / or starts crying. IMHO, it's bad acting.


----------



## Fading Fast

Last night, we watched "The Man Who Came to Dinner" from '42 with Monty Woolley and Bette Davis. Woolley's clothes are classic '40s showing many Trad / Ivy roots.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find really good pictures.

The first, short clip, is the best I could do on his classic raglan herringbone coat (to me, this is the quintessential everyday winter coat).










This second pic does not do justice to the super heavy weight and rich texture of the material on his gorgeous suit - very Apparel Arts college kid '30s suit. (Ignore the tie and Jimmy Durante.)


----------



## AldenPyle

Peter Gallagher in Sex, Lies and Video Tape


----------



## Fading Fast

"*The Last Angry Man*" 1959

David Wayne plays a TV producer wearing late '50s Ivy perfect clothes: sack suits, knit ties, OCBDs (with outstanding collar rolls) and a heavy wool overcoat (with what I think is a Burberry lining).

There are other neat clothing items in the movie - the old "behind the times" doctor has some awesome heavy wool suits (with suspenders) and a wool overcoats that could stop bullets and his nephew has on a classic varsity jacket.


----------



## AldenPyle

Speaking of Jane Fonda, someone has taken Roddy McDowall's home movies from his Malibu beach house ca. 1965 and put them up on Youtube. Not trad, e exactly, but awesome West Coast style from young Hollywood of the time.






https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL78BAC4F867CDB342


----------



## Fading Fast

I work from home and was on a conference call yesterday and had "Anatomy of a Murder" on mute on TCM in the background. The movie is trad heaven - sack suits, all kinds of vests, tab collars / pin collars, knit ties, OCBDs, plain raglan-sleeve-hidden-buttons raincoats, plaid shirts, flat-front chinos and the general vibe of Ivy's heyday (plus Lee Remick, first picture sitting down).


----------



## Fading Fast

"*All the King's Men*" 1949 starring Broderick Crawford

The clothes here are BIG - big in that 1940s American way of cutting clothes (very padded shoulders, wide legs and sleeves and generally all-around blousy).

Trad American in fabrics and style, but not Ivy, again, BIG.

Also, overcoats and trench coats (only a few years after WWII) are everywhere with many Polo coats - even on the women - they must have been having one of their periodic moments of vogue


----------



## Fading Fast

Watched 1954's "Executive Suite" the other day. William Holden, as the bright young senior executive, wears mid-'50s Ivy business clothing throughout as shown in these not-great-but-the-best-I-could-find stills (below) - sack suits with OCBDs (with great roll) and simple ties (couldn't really get in close on the ties).


----------



## dukekook

"Executive Suite" is on TCM again today (4/29/2018) in about fifteen minutes at noon Eastern time. I agree that Holden looks great all through the movie, but I am a fan.



Fading Fast said:


> Watched 1954's "Executive Suite" the other day. William Holden, as the bright young senior executive, wears mid-'50s Ivy business clothing throughout as shown in these not-great-but-the-best-I-could-find stills (below) - sack suits with OCBDs (with great roll) and simple ties (couldn't really get in close on the ties).
> 
> View attachment 21241
> View attachment 21242


----------



## Fading Fast

dukekook said:


> "Executive Suite" is on TCM again today (4/29/2018) in about fifteen minutes at noon Eastern time. I agree that Holden looks great all through the movie, but I am a fan.


I really like the movie. Good story, good actors and a fair treatment of business - neither Hollywood reflectively antagonist toward business nor rah-rah business is perfect, a pretty balanced view.

Also, great time travel - cars, clothes, architecture, etc.


----------



## Fading Fast

Saw "Sunset Boulevard" in the movie theater this week - there's a clothing theme that runs through the move.

William Holden plays a gigolo (in the true sense of the word) and his older "girlfriend" takes him shopping for clothes (after she notes how tired she is of seeing him in "that same awful sport coat") in a scene set in a men's haberdashery where we see Holden being fitted for a suit (chalk markings and all) and where a smarmy salesman tries to up-sell him from a camel hair polo coat to a vicuna one by whispering to Holden something to the effect of "if the woman's paying, why don't you get the vicuna one."

Later in the movie, (the, now, nicely attired) Holden is packing to go away and we see a very long and full wall of closets. Additionally, his improved wardrobe is referenced several times which embarrasses him owing to the way he obtained it.

One more thought, Holden, IMO, has a bit of an odd-shaped body in that his shoulders are too broad for his body's length so his suits jackets never flow as well on him or make as nice a line as Cary Grant's or Jimmy Stewart's do.

I wish I could have found some better stills - especially of the polo coat (third pic below) - but you'll at least get a feel for his clothes. These are all shots of him after he goes shopping and gets his new wardrobe.


----------



## Fading Fast

Caught an interesting 1957 movie "No Down Payment" set in a slightly upscaled version of a West Coast "Levittown." The characters here are not East-coast Ivy, but more from all over America, mainly ex-GIs, of very modest backgrounds, but all trying to "advance," "capture the American dream," "better themselves and their families."

The clothes strike me as more of what a lot of Americans really wore in the '50s when Ivy was influencing "regular" people clothes. It isn't pure Ivy or even close, but you can see some Ivy influences / and some West Coast influences as well. If you ever look through thrift shops, etc., some of this stuff will be very familiar to you.

The follow images are the best I could find, but the movie provides a much better look at the sartorial style.


----------



## Reddington

Watched 1959’s ‘A Summer Place’ on TCM and it’s not a bad movie, but the styles worn by male characters are terrific. It takes place in Maine during the late Fifties and features a great collection of classic American dress on film. TCM usually has their films on their app for a week or so if you want to see it.


----------



## Reddington

A Summer Place (1959)


----------



## Reddington

A Summer Place (1959)


----------



## Fading Fast

Reddington said:


> A Summer Place (1959)


An outstanding trad clothing movie (and a fun soap opera of a movie itself). Some more images of the trad clothes:


----------



## Fading Fast

Recently watched 1962's "Advise and Consent" which is early '60s trad clothing heaven:

Pretty darn good sack suit:









A white linen suit for Washington DC's hot summers:








And just more good trad clothes

















Also, great early '60s architecture, clothes, cars, etc.

My comments on the movie here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1283#post-2442986


----------



## Doctor Damage




----------



## Vecchio Vespa

For a visual overdose of traditional design featuring clothing and furnishings I love The Reluctant Debutante. Plus Kay Kendall was a comic genius.


----------



## Fading Fast

Check out Barbara Bel Geddes' Polo coat in 1947's "The Long Night" when young women were, clearly, still wearing Polo coats:


----------



## FiscalDean

From the 1964 movie Good Neighbor Sam. Lemon's character works in the advertising business. Pretty nice collar roll on that shirt.










Also from Good Neighbor Sam, I believe both men are sporting a 3 roll 2 coat.


----------



## FiscalDean

From the 1957 movie Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?. It looks like both men are wearing 3 roll 2 jackets. The movie is set in the world of advertising.


----------



## Fading Fast

"Parrish" 1961 with Troy Donahue, Karl Malden, Claudette Colbert and Dean Jagger.

No great actor, but Donahue could wear Trad and Ivy clothes with the best of them.


----------



## Fading Fast

From 1965's "The Loved One"

A very young Rober Morse in a 3/2 sack very heavy tweed herringbone with a knit tie (sorry, these are the best pics I could find):
















Also, Tab Hunter as a tour guide looking very American (as he was genetically designed to do) in some kinda tour-guide getup:


----------



## Doctor Damage

Anthony Quinn in "Across 110th Street". His costume in the film isn't trad in any way other than this great light blue OCBD.


----------



## Fading Fast

From 1937's "Live, Love and Learn."

I saw this movie a few weeks ago and then forgot to post. Robert Montgomery is wearing (from memory as the pic isn't great and I couldn't find any better ones): a 3/2 roll sack (properly rolled) with what looks like an OCBD (and some good collar rolling) and a simple tie that looked - other than that the jacket is ventless - like he could have walked off of an Ivy campus in the mid '50s - proving, as always, that the roots of popular styles stretch farther back than one thinks.


----------



## SG_67

While not exactly film, over the weekend I was watching a few episodes of "My Three Sons" during a marathon and thought I'd offer up Fred MacMurray.


----------



## 127.72 MHz

^^ The lapels are a little narrow for my taste but I love everyone's look.

For me this era was the golden age of American men's style,....


----------



## Fading Fast

127.72 MHz said:


> ^^ The lapels are a little narrow for my taste but I love everyone's look.
> 
> For me this era was the golden age of American men's style,....


The show ran from '60-'72 (I've only seen, maybe, a quarter of the episodes), but the early years really reflected that "moment" of classic-American, heavily Ivy-influenced style.


----------



## wacolo




----------



## Corcovado

*Mortimer Duke*: Tell him the good part.
*Randolph Duke*: The good part, William, is that, no matter whether our clients make money or lose money, Duke & Duke get the commissions.
*Mortimer Duke*: Well? What do you think, Valentine?
*Billy Ray*: Sounds to me like you guys a couple of bookies.
*Randolph Duke:* I told you he'd understand.


----------



## Bermuda

Operation Finale and First Man are both current movies that take place in the 60s and have trad attire


----------



## Fading Fast

"Tunnel of Love" from 1958

If there is such a thing as late-50s, East Coast, Ivy, suburb style - this movie reflects it.













































And a promo shot from the movie (he wears this outfit in one scene), Richard Widmark in my favorite sports coat of them all, the black and white herringbone paired with a white OCBD and what I hoped was a black knit tie - a trifecta - but on closer inspection I think it is silk:


----------



## Bermuda

I saw First Man set in the 60s. A lot of short sleeve OCBD action. Narrow ties. A lot of plaid. White dress shirts with small pointed collars. At one point Neil Armstrong is wearing a blue short sleeve OCBD buttoned all the way to the top


----------



## Doctor Damage

Tom Hanks filming a show about Mr Rogers... pinned collar, blazer, grey dress pants, beefroll penny loafers, plain raincoat


----------



## Bermuda

Doctor Damage said:


> Tom Hanks filming a show about Mr Rogers... pinned collar, blazer, grey dress pants, beefroll penny loafers, plain raincoat


This is a full length Rogers movie


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Definitely a movie I look forward to watching! Fred Rogers seemed an admirable role model for us all.


----------



## Fading Fast

Caught 1944's "Double Indemnity" with Fred MacMurray, Barbara Stanwyck and Edward G. Robinson










Note the bold striped socks ⇩ on Robinson showing that being "edgy" by wearing loud socks with your suit is absolutely nothing new:


















And let's give Barbara Stanwyck her due ⇩ as she rocks a pair of trousers and a polo coat:


----------



## Fading Fast

In "The Story on Page One" from 1959, Anthony Franciosa shows how to wear a collar bar (sorry I couldn't find closer-in pics):















I love how it "tightens" the collar and tie up while, especially in the second pic, "dimpling" the collar nicely.


----------



## Fading Fast

Check out Jimmy Stewart's gorgeous herringbone overcoat form 1938's "Vivacious Lady" (with the not-bad-looking-herself Ginger Rogers), and note the entire outfit in the second pic including that pin collar and awesome cable-knit sweater vest:
















His coat looks heavy enough to use as a blanket ⇩


----------



## Fading Fast

"Holiday Affair" from 1949. While more "big" 1940s clothes than TNSIL, it does reflect a classic period in American attire with Robert Mitchum being equal to the bigness of the style.

It was hard to tell, but his suit looked like one heck of a heavy flannel to me while his raglan overcoat is iconically perfect.























Not that anybody is interested , but that is a very young, eleven-years-before-"Psycho," Janet Leigh in the last picture.


----------



## Fading Fast

"Love Finds Andy Hardy" from 1938.

The Andy Hardy movie series is fluff, but it's a great window into what middle-class teenagers were wearing in the '30s.

Here, Mickey Rooney (who was a teen idol in his day) is wearing a collared shirt and tie with a sweatshirt over that (probably a bit "edgy" at the time) with what I think are grey flannels (hard to tell in B&W, but - not sure - they look like wool dress pants) and, when outside, he puts a plaid jacket (my guess, black and red) on.

Very teenage cool for its day and shows that teenagers were already playing around with the formula - mixing in sweats and casual attire with ties - in the '30s.

















And check out this neat cardigan vest he wears:


----------



## peterc

Love Finds Andy Hardy is a wonderful film.

My choice for trad is Gregory Peck's suit in Roman Holiday. Trouble is, one really does need his physique to pull it off as nicely as he does. Once in a blue moon, I land a suit that looks that good on me, but not often.


----------



## Fading Fast

peterc said:


> Love Finds Andy Hardy is a wonderful film.
> 
> My choice for trad is Gregory Peck's suit in Roman Holiday. Trouble is, one really does need his physique to pull it off as nicely as he does. Once in a blue moon, I land a suit that looks that good on me, but not often.


Being a tall, lean and ridiculously handsome man does help the very nice suit look even better, especially when the wearer is standing next to Audrey Hepburn:


----------



## peterc

And to think there once was a time when one could buy a suit like that OTR, though I am fairly sure GP's was custom as of course it would be for an actor of that caliber. I once had a Missoni suit (not kidding) that fit like that - 1989/90. And although I have a special loathing for reverse pleats, please take note how flat the pleats on GP's suits fall. The only reverse pleated pants I ever had that looked like that were by Barry Bricken. He is in the fabric business now, I believe - no more RTW.


----------



## Fading Fast

So, I'm watching *The Godfather* on TV yesterday, the 850,000 time I've seen it, and I noticed how Ivy pre-Godfather Michael dresses. Here he's wearing a brown corduroy sport coat, University-strip (pretty sure) OCB (with a good roll) and a kinda rep tie (not the most Ivy looking item, but still):


----------



## SG_67

Fading Fast said:


> So, I'm watching *The Godfather* on TV yesterday, the 850,000 time I've seen it, and I noticed how Ivy pre-Godfather Michael dresses. Here he's wearing a brown corduroy sport coat, University-strip (pretty sure) OCB (with a good roll) and a kinda rep tie (not the most Ivy looking item, but still):
> View attachment 27706


Press


----------



## Fading Fast

SG_67 said:


> Press


Great quote. It was that comment "your nice Ivy League suit" that alerted me to his clothes.


----------



## peterc

Watched "The Sweet Smell of Success" last night. Wow, what a movie. I have a vague recollection of seeing it very young on TV back in the 70's, but this is the first time I have really say through it to speak of. Tony Curtis's suits are simply amazing. Note how he can move in them without the fabric pulling or him looking like he's wearing a suit that is too big for him.

Then, of course, there's NYC, arguably the real star of the show. What can I say? People who are born in America have, I think, a harder time understanding the draw of NYC. Not being born in the U.S., NYC has never ever lost its allure for me and it never will.


----------



## Fading Fast

peterc said:


> Watched "The Sweet Smell of Success" last night. Wow, what a movie. I have a vague recollection of seeing it very young on TV back in the 70's, but this is the first time I have really say through it to speak of. Tony Curtis's suits are simply amazing. Note how he can move in them without the fabric pulling or him looking like he's wearing a suit that is too big for him.
> 
> Then, of course, there's NYC, arguably the real star of the show. What can I say? People who are born in America have, I think, a harder time understanding the draw of NYC. Not being born in the U.S., NYC has never ever lost its allure for me and it never will.


I agree. As a kid growing up in New Jersey, New York City was Oz to me - and it's never lost its appeal.

I also agree that NYC should get equal billing with the other stars in "The Sweet Smell of Success."

My comments on the movie from a site about America's "Golden Era:" https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1148#post-2211553


----------



## peterc

Fading, just read your comments. Excellent and accurate, as usual.


----------



## Fading Fast

peterc said:


> Fading, just read your comments. Excellent and accurate, as usual.


Thank you - I was blown away by how good that movie is.


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## Fading Fast

More 1930's Apparel Arts than Trad or Ivy, but Fred MacMurray, in 1935's *Alice Adams*, wears some outstanding outfits. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find really good pics, but as you can see below, he's got some cool threads.

This sport coat is belted back.









Note the collar bar.


















His ivory sport coat (which he wore with dark pants and white bucks) had a very Palm Beach '30s feel. Also, while a bit much, Hepburn's sailor outfit did look darn cute.









My comments on the movie itself: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1324#post-2506669


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## peterc

Fading, NICE. You can see in these where Ralph Lauren got some of his inspiration. Funny, I used to think Polo was expensive when it was in its original blue label form; but now that it doesn't exist in that form at all, it does not seem expensive in retrospect.


----------



## Fading Fast

peterc said:


> Fading, NICE. You can see in these where Ralph Lauren got some of his inspiration. Funny, I used to think Polo was expensive when it was in its original blue label form; but now that it doesn't exist in that form at all, it does not seem expensive in retrospect.


As a fan of old movies, you see Ralph Lauren inspirations everywhere in those films.

I wasn't aware that Polo had done away with its Blue Label. I work from home now and haven't bought a suit in about seven years, but when I did buy them regularly before that, Blue Label was my go-to Polo one.


----------



## peterc

Blue Label still exists - it is what Polo has done to Blue Label that is troublesome to me. (I am only talking about suits, sport-coats & dress trousers.) Lowering the price of it was one thing - I get that - but in order to do that, some compromises had to be made, and in my view they were made: fit was slimmed; fabrics seemed a bit less nice, etc. It was a conscious decision by RL to streamline his product line - merging Black Label into Purple Label and reducing prices on Blue Label.

Now, having said this, I have 5 of the new Blue Label suits and I really like them. They are slim without being constricting and they look really nice on. Some are made in Italy and some in Slovakia (still by Corneliani, apparently), but, in general, they are not the Blue Label of the past. (My first Polo suit was bought at Bloomies in 1984 and I still have one from Bloomies circa 2007.) The shift occurred when the label was changed from the blue/silver to the blue/gold.


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## Fading Fast

A lot of cool, interesting clothes in 1951's *An American in Pari*s where Gene Kelly plays a, for the day, non-conformist artist.

That says, he does wear one very nice grey flannel sack suit (albeit with double vents, probably owing to his dancing needs). Unfortunately, I couldn't find a really good pic of it - in color, it is a beautiful suit:








The super-cute actress is the underrated and, sadly, forgotten talented and beautiful Nina Foch.

Kelly also wore some neat casual getups in the movie:


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## peterc

I am not good at posting photos, but I recently re-watched "To Sir With Love." Sidney Poitier's clothes are fantastic in it. Trim, well cut, flattering. I wonder who did his wardrobe. Fading, if you can post some stills, I would be grateful.


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## Fading Fast

peterc said:


> I am not good at posting photos, but I recently re-watched "To Sir With Love." Sidney Poitier's clothes are fantastic in it. Trim, well cut, flattering. I wonder who did his wardrobe. Fading, if you can post some stills, I would be grateful.


Glad to help as "To Sir With Love" is an outstanding movie and, yes, Poitier's clothes are awesome. While the movie is a bit dated with '60s idealism, it still holds up as smart and engaging entertainment.

Best quote from the movie: "Oh, I don't understand you a bit Sir. I mean, you're a toff, and you ain't."

As to the clothes, my favorite outfit is his very Ivy-like, navy blazer, (with patch pockets) grey flannels (with side tabs), white shirt (but not OCBD, he's a Brit after all), rep tie:
















He also wears a classic balmacaan raincoat, but I couldn't find a better pic of it than this one:









And this very nice example of a slim-fit suit that (as apposed to today's) still understands classic proportions that look best on a human body (the color shot shows how beautiful the material is):

















And this comely female both ⇧ and ⇩ - she proves that women will always be attracted to a well-dressed man:









As to your who-did-his-wardrobe query, IMDB just says John Wilson Apperson which is not a costume designer I'm familiar with but, to be honest, Poitier's clothes, while fantastic to us today, were very mainstream young-teacher-in-England for the time (but somebody really knew how to tailor them).


----------



## peterc

Fading, thank you and of course I agree with all that you say. There truly is a difference between trim, tailored garments and the stuff you see today. I think your choice of the word "proportion" says it all. Take a look at Larry Tate's clothes on Bewitched. They are trim too, but they fit him so well because they are properly tailored. And yes, the outfit from TSWL that you posted is exactly the one I was thinking of, so thanks again.


----------



## wacolo

I saw Mr. Deeds Goes to Town this morning. The scene where Cooper is being fitted for some suits and barraged by various individuals at the same time is wonderful.


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## Fading Fast

*Dark Passage* 1947.

One cool thing is that Bogart's navy pinstripe suit serves as one of the clues in the movie and is commented on several times.
















Separately, wealthy West Coast heiress, Bacall, wears this neat and, for the time, casual outfit:









Finally, at the end of the movie, Bogart is down in Peru wearing this light-colored sport coat and what might be, not sure, black knit tie:









And my comments on the movie itself (if anyone cares): https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1326#post-2510855


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## Doctor Damage

Fading Fast said:


> He also wears a classic balmacaan raincoat, but I couldn't find a better pic of it than this one:
> View attachment 27871


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## Doctor Damage

Fading Fast said:


> A lot of cool, interesting clothes in 1951's *An American in Pari*s where Gene Kelly plays a, for the day, non-conformist artist.
> 
> That says, he does wear one very nice grey flannel sack suit (albeit with double vents, probably owing to his dancing needs). Unfortunately, I couldn't find a really good pic of it - in color, it is a beautiful suit:
> 
> Kelly also wore some neat casual getups in the movie:


Kelly always dressed like an American in his films, whereas Astaire usually dressed like an Englishman.


----------



## Fading Fast

I'm not a trench coat expert - they wore me / not the other way around, so I haven't owned one in decades - but saw this one in the movie *Waterloo Bridge*. The movie's from 1940, but set in WWI, so, in theory, an original trench coat (with all the appropriate doohickeys, etc. ):


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## Flanderian

All from _The Good Shepherd_.


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## wacolo

Flanderian said:


> All from _The Good Shepherd_.


I am quite fond of that movie. Probably could have been a bit shorter but still quite watchable. Here are a few more...









































And William Hurt in what is almost certainly a Chipp tie....


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## Flanderian

wacolo said:


> I am quite fond of that movie. Probably could have been a bit shorter but still quite watchable. Here are a few more...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And William Hurt in what is almost certainly a Chipp tie....


I thought it very good, and greatly underappreciated.

It kept my interest throughout, and I thought the way in which De Niro told the story just about perfect.

Jesus in the flesh -


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## peterc

Fantastic stuff guys. On a semi related note, I have always noted how well Dudley Moore's clothes fit him in Ten and same for Richard Gere in American Gigolo.

And, to all the young people here, yes, indeed, men's clothes really looked that good in 1980. There are scenes in both these films that show DM and RG wearing sportcoats and/or suits and when viewed from the back, there is literally not one ripple or crease anywhere to be scene. My French made Calvin Klein suits fit like that in 1977-1980. I had 2 suits and 2 sportcoats. Made in France - unbelievable.


----------



## Doctor Damage

Fading Fast said:


> I'm not a trench coat expert - they wore me / not the other way around, so I haven't owned one in decades - but saw this one in the movie *Waterloo Bridge*. The movie's from 1940, but set in WWI, so, in theory, an original trench coat (with all the appropriate doohickeys, etc. ):
> View attachment 28142
> View attachment 28143
> 
> View attachment 28141
> View attachment 28144


Thanks for the photos, I was unaware of this film. It's the same design/config as Bogart wore in several of his films (and a bunch of publicity stills). It's a civilian coat for sure, either early Burberry or Aquascutum, but more likely the former.

EDIT: I'm reasonably sure Burberry since the Aquascutum coats of the early 1940s already had that company's distinctive half-moon shaped rain flap (much different than the flap on Taylor's and Bogart's coats).


----------



## Doctor Damage

peterc said:


> Fantastic stuff guys. On a semi related note, I have always noted how well Dudley Moore's clothes fit him in Ten and same for Richard Gere in American Gigolo.
> 
> And, to all the young people here, yes, indeed, men's clothes really looked that good in 1980. There are scenes in both these films that show DM and RG wearing sportcoats and/or suits and when viewed from the back, there is literally not one ripple or crease anywhere to be scene. My French made Calvin Klein suits fit like that in 1977-1980. I had 2 suits and 2 sportcoats. Made in France - unbelievable.


Yes, there really was a time when the average joe could wear great clothes, and without breaking the bank like today. The "1980s" in particular is an under-appreciated and mis-understood period style-wise; once you set aside the MTV freak show fashions, then standard business attire of the period was often better looking and fitting than the 1950s and 1960s in my view.


----------



## Fading Fast

Doctor Damage said:


> Thanks for the photos, I was unaware of this film. It's the same design/config as Bogart wore in several of his films (and a bunch of publicity stills). It's a civilian coat for sure, either early Burberry or Aquascutum, but more likely the former.


The coat's impressive and Robert Taylor (like Bogie) has the presence to carry it off.

In case you want to see the movie, TCM runs it pretty frequently. My comments on it from another site (I touched on two movies in that post):

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1327#post-2512227


----------



## peterc

Doctor Damage said:


> Yes, there really was a time when the average joe could wear great clothes, and without breaking the bank like today. The "1980s" in particular is an under-appreciated and mis-understood period style-wise; once you set aside the MTV freak show fashions, then standard business attire of the period was often better looking and fitting than the 1950s and 1960s in my view.


I agree - the clothes I had in the 80's were just amazing and fit that way too. Examples: Alexander Julian suits & sportcoats made by Greenfield, 1987-1988; Private Label Bergdorf Goodman linen blazer 1988, also made by Greenfield; Calvin Klein USA made sportcoats at Bloomies; Garrick Anderson 1988 suit at Barneys; British made Paul Smith which made you look like a rock star; Barry Bricken sportcoats and trousers (the only reverse pleated trousers I have EVER worn that fit properly) - because the pleats fall flat; the list goes on and on.


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## Fading Fast

I know I've written about it before, but just caught a scene from *The Graduate* where Dustin Hoffman meets Mrs. Robinson in the hotel lobby (darn good scene, even better scene follows ) and he's wearing a white (maybe very light blue) OCBD, a black knit tie and a quintessential Ivy sport coat:

Black-and-white herringbone wool tweed that alternates between looking grey and looking black and white
Natural shoulder
3/2 roll (90% sure)
2 button cuff
Swelled edges
Lapped seams 
Patch pockets
Center hook vent (90% sure, a bit blurry when I freezed the picture - yes, I'm that nuts)
That is my favorite of all Ivy sport coats.

For a very popular movie that is known for its clothes, I was surprised that I couldn't find better pics of it, but this is the best I saw:


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## Color 8

I just watched "Philadelphia Story" last night. The film is an encyclopedia of Trad.


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## Fading Fast

Color 8 said:


> I just watched "Philadelphia Story" last night. The film is an encyclopedia of Trad.


Agreed. It had two of Hollywood's finest classic dressers in it with Stewart and Grant.


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## Chuck 1984

Flanderian said:


> Of course, we need only go back to the genuine article from the '50's, '40's or '30's (Anyone remember #1 son?), but among the contemporary crop, what stands out? Spare me Metropolitan, claustrophobic and dull with colorless characters.
> 
> My money's on The Good Shepherd. A pretty good film with, with very good clothes. True to life. Quality clothes worn by quality people. A treat for the eye.





EastVillageTrad said:


> We've had discussions on this before, check the search function.
> 
> Opinions vary, I am kinda up in the air...





Flanderian said:


> Of course, we need only go back to the genuine article from the '50's, '40's or '30's (Anyone remember #1 son?), but among the contemporary crop, what stands out? Spare me Metropolitan, claustrophobic and dull with colorless characters.
> 
> My money's on The Good Shepherd. A pretty good film with, with very good clothes. True to life. Quality clothes worn by quality people. A treat for the eye.


Wh


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## Chuck 1984

Chuck 1984 said:


> Wh[/QUOT
> Does anyone know this jacket I've been trying to find it for weeks


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## Fading Fast

Richard Chamberlain in "Twilight of Honor" form 1963:


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## Fading Fast

*The Strange Love of Martha Ivers* from 1946

The clothes are very '40s classic - big shoulders, bold patterns, full cuts.

















Check out this awesome herringbone tweed suit ⇩ 
























And I know we are mainly about men's clothes here, but the women's clothes were '40s classic in a very Hollywood way ⇩























My comments on the movie here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1338#post-2544769


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## eagle2250

^^
I am certain that what I am about to confess will cause some to question my sincerity as a true student and practitioner of men's style, but I must tell you, I fine the photos of the ladies in film to be much more interesting than that of the men!


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## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> I am certain that what I am about to confess will cause some to question my sincerity as a true student and practitioner of men's style, but I must tell you, I fine the photos of the ladies in film to be much more interesting than that of the men!


When Lizabeth Scott popped up wearing what was described in the movie as a "sun outfit -" the shorts and halter top - I certainly prioritized paying attention to her over what any of the men were wearing at that time.


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## Corcovado

Nice gams!


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## Fading Fast

Paul Newman in *From the Terrace* mainly wears classic Ivy clothes throughout. Surprisingly, I struggled to find good pics to show his navy suits, tab collars, rep ties, balmacaan raincoat, etc., but these give you some idea.




































My comments on the movie here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1338#post-2545774


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## Fading Fast

"The Man Who Cheated Himself" from 1950.

Very classic American "big" '40s clothing.






























My comments on the film here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1340#post-2551068


----------



## Oldsport

Tod Hackett said:


> A rather odd one...
> 
> Leonard Nimoy from _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_ working a late 1970s sort of go-to-hell trad vibe.
> 
> View attachment 31279


OMG, I have that coat, at least that color and pattern. It's a H. Freeman & Sons in Camel Hair...


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## Fading Fast

Tod Hackett said:


> ^ Sublime Camel Hair...


You're so right - it's an outstanding coat.

Here are two more pics of it.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find that one really good full-frontal shot:















Good movie too - worth watching for both the movie itself and the clothes.


----------



## Fading Fast

Tod Hackett said:


> What strikes me the most is how it luxuriously drapes without in any way being ill-fitting.
> 
> Everything being made today looks too stiff, too stuffy, and (paradoxically) too informal in comparison.
> 
> If only somebody would think to return to making polo coats with such a degree of easy comfort and relaxed luxury for less than the price of a decent vintage roadster...


What you see in the pics is even more obvious in the movie where you can see the coat move - it does drape and flow beautifully and is well tailored, but not silly tight or short like today.

As you imply - my kingdom for a coat like that.


----------



## eagle2250

Fading Fast said:


> "The Man Who Cheated Himself" from 1950.
> 
> Very classic American "big" '40s clothing.
> View attachment 31288
> 
> My comments on the film here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1340#post-2551068


The gentleman being carried into the apartment by the gentleman and the lady, is he unconscious? I don't think so...look at the placement of his left hand. That old coot's copping a feel! LOL.


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## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> The gentleman being carried into the apartment by the gentleman and the lady, is he unconscious? I don't think so...look at the placement of his left hand. That old coot's copping a feel! LOL.


At that point in the movie, the gentleman is dead, but of course, in the real world he was alive. More than anything, lithe Jane Wyatt was probably not providing any real-world help in even fake carrying that large man.


----------



## eagle2250

^^LOL...
I guess I had better watch that movie. Gotta check Amazon to see if they offer The Man Who Cheated Himself in a DVD. :icon_scratch:


----------



## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> ^^LOL...
> I guess I had better watch that movie. Gotta check Amazon to see if they offer The Man Who Cheated Himself in a DVD. :icon_scratch:


Do you get TCM on your cable TV? That's were I saw, and while I haven't checked this particular title, TCM makes some of its movies available On Demand. Also, check out YouTube as they have a lot of old movies - often for free - but the quality of the print can be anywhere from excellent to unwatchable on Youtube.

I just checked, here's a free YouTube copy (link below) with okay print quality. If you can find it on TCM, the print quality is outstanding - it looks as if they filmed it yesterday it's so clear. The clothing and shots of San Francisco in the '50s makes looking for a really clear and crisp copy worth the effort. Good luck.


----------



## eagle2250

Fading Fast said:


> Do you get TCM on your cable TV? That's were I saw, and while I haven't checked this particular title, TCM makes some of its movies available On Demand. Also, check out YouTube as they have a lot of old movies - often for free - but the quality of the print can be anywhere from excellent to unwatchable on Youtube.
> 
> I just checked, here's a free YouTube copy (link below) with okay print quality. If you can find it on TCM, the print quality is outstanding - it looks as if they filmed it yesterday it's so clear. The clothing and shots of San Francisco in the '50s makes looking for a really clear and crisp copy worth the effort. Good luck.


We used to get TCM, but then our cable company (Spectrum) dropped it and offered it as a $13 monthly pack to the basic cable package I refused to be victimized by the overly greedy cable dudes, so no, we don't get TCM. However, I do want to say a hearty "Thank you very much" for the You Tube link. That's going to save me about $12.


----------



## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> We used to get TCM, but then our cable company (Spectrum) dropped it and offered it as a $13 monthly pack to the basic cable package I refused to be victimized by the overly greedy cable dudes, so no, we don't get TCM. However, I do want to say a hearty "Thank you very much" for the You Tube link. That's going to save me about $12.


I hear you about the nickel and dimming from the cable companies and completely respect your view. For us, TCM is one of the primary reasons we even get cable, so despite having to purchase it via an overpriced package from hateful Spectrum (yup, it's our provider too), we bite the bullet.

We've dumped most of the extras from cable over the years and have a pretty slim package, but TCM is one of the very few things we'll pay up for. We also get HBO because I am not or - at least until the past week or so - was not going to tell my girlfriend I cut off her access to "Game of Thrones" (a show I've never watched) - a happy home is worth a few bucks here and there .


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## Fading Fast

*Pitfall* from 1948 with Dick Powell, Raymond Burr and Lizabeth Scott.

The clothes are very post-war '40s, but to be honest, Scott steals the movie and has the best clothes.











































My comments on *Pitfall* here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1341#post-2552170


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## Fading Fast

Cross post from the Tweed thread.

Check out this super-cool (I assume) Tweed coat from the 1961 movie "Murder, She Said."

The movie was filmed in England.

I believe the pattern is called broken herringbone, but if anyone (@Matt S) knows better, I'm happy to be corrected.























My comments on the movie: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1341#post-2554216


----------



## SG_67

Fading Fast said:


> *Pitfall* from 1948 with Dick Powell, Raymond Burr and Lizabeth Scott.
> 
> The clothes are very post-war '40s, but to be honest, Scott steals the movie and has the best clothes.
> View attachment 31391
> View attachment 31392
> View attachment 31396
> View attachment 31393
> View attachment 31394
> View attachment 31395
> 
> My comments on *Pitfall* here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1341#post-2552170


Just saw this a few weeks ago on TCM. Can't believe just how nasty Raymond Burr could be.


----------



## Fading Fast

SG_67 said:


> Just saw this a few weeks ago on TCM. Can't believe just how nasty Raymond Burr could be.


I know. I grew up knowing him as moral good-guy Perry Mason, but as I became a fan of old movies, I learned that he had a dark, film noir past. He plays the heavy in several noirs.


----------



## Fading Fast

SG_67 said:


> Just saw this a few weeks ago on TCM. Can't believe just how nasty Raymond Burr could be.


He also plays a very nasty (very not MeToo) fella in "The Blue Gardenia" and, of course, "Rear Window."

My comments on "The Blue Gardenia" here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1333#post-2531494

Also, if you read on in that thread, you'll see that someone else commented on the nastiness you see in these film noir movies.


----------



## Fading Fast

I know we've talked about this several times before, but I recently watched *Three Days of the Condor* (good movie, my comments here: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...ovie-you-watched.20830/page-1341#post-2555368) and was amazed with how much classic style Redford brought to a mid-'70s movie, which also shows the timeliness and flexibility of classic items.

A classic grey herringbone tweed sport coat with jeans, a tie, sweater and hiking boots is not classic overall, but anchored by the sport coat, it looks better than most '70s outfits:
















And later in the movie he swaps out the sport coat and tie for a fantastic looking peacoat:


----------



## eagle2250

^^Your review of the movie in the other forum was perhaps the most thorough and absorbingly interesting one that I have seen Having seen Three days of The Condor just two times, I agree with your assessment..."it is one hell of a thriller!" They just do not make movies like that anymore.


----------



## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Your review of the movie in the other forum was perhaps the most thorough and absorbingly interesting one that I have seen Having seen Three days of The Condor just two times, I agree with your assessment..."it is one hell of a thriller!" They just do not make movies like that anymore.


Thank you for your kind words. I was really impressed with the movie - engaged from the first to the last scene which doesn't happen that often and even less so with many movies from the '70s.

Today, the story would be downplayed (and muddled); whereas, the action sequences - which were graphic, but realistic in *Condor* - would be amped up to the point of cartoonification.

And, as noted in my comments, somebody involved in making *Condor *had studied at the feet of Hitchcock.


----------



## MikeF

Fading Fast said:


> Thank you for your kind words. I was really impressed with the movie - engaged from the first to the last scene which doesn't happen that often and even less so with many movies from the '70s.
> 
> Today, the story would be downplayed (and muddled); whereas, the action sequences - which were graphic, but realistic in *Condor* - would be amped up to the point of cartoonification.
> 
> And, as noted in my comments, somebody involved in making *Condor *had studied at the feet of Hitchcock.


Funny you should say that about a remake of Condor, it was remade as a tv series for some off the wall network last year. Guess what, you got it exactly right. It was pretty much of a mess if you liked the movie. It's available on dvd now and I bought it and if you watch it without referring back to the movie it's not terrible. I like both, the movie a lot more than the show. One thing that really makes it suffer is that the lead doesn't have nearly the screen presence of Redford.


----------



## Corcovado

"The Big Chill." Not entirely trad but, somehow the movie itself seems trad even if certain sartorial details here and there are not.


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## Fading Fast

⇧ I think you - as reflected in that movie - captured a time when trad/Ivy style still had a decent influence on "regular" clothes. To be sure, while I don't remember the specific characters from that movie, they were college educated in the late '60s, so they had learned some of their style when Ivy was losing out to late-'60s rebel clothing, but it wasn't all gone.

Even in the '80s, chinos, wool sweaters over collared shirts, boat shoes, button-down collars, etc., were, yes, Ivy / trad, but also a part of many "regular" Americans' wardrobes who never went to college or thought about their style of dress.

My dad hadn't gone to college - growing up, there was no thought of Ivy or trad dressing in my house - but some of those items were part of the clothes my family wore simply because they were the clothes in the stores at the time and the clothes others wore.

In the '70s and '80s (as a kid), I wore OCBDs, boat shoes, chinos and wool sweaters well before I had any idea - any idea at all - that they were part of a clothing ethos and style. As said, it was just what you wore. Even in our very modest household - clothes came from Robert Hall (a discount warehouse), Sears, the Army/Navy store, etc. - plenty of trad/Ivy influenced items (if not the original, better-made or "genuine" versions) made it to our wardrobes.


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## Corcovado

Very well put, Fading Fast!


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## Fading Fast

Caught a little bit of "All About Eve" yesterday and, while there are a lot of fun '50s clothings, this sport coat has always been a favorite. I couldn't find better pics, but in the movie you can feel its nubby tweedy-ness.

It's a bold herringbone affair with patch pockets - a bit "large" in cut, but that was the norm then. Also, I love the whole outfit, even the undone bowtie - which you'd undo too if you had Bette Davis harping on you as much as Gary Merrill did.





























⇧ "But your sport coat looks fantastic!"


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## Fading Fast

Kinda a cross post from the "Arts" forum.

Check out the sweater and the duffle coat from the 1958 movie "Dunkirk:"








My comment on the movie here: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/threads/best-movie-ever.107521/page-16#post-1916413


----------



## eagle2250

^^
Have you seen the 2017 remake of the movie Dunkirk? A sobering rendition of the story, for sure. I'm going to find a copy of the 1958 version and watch it to consider the two films in the perspective of the other. With other films, it's been my impression that the original is almost always better than the remake.


----------



## SG_67

Fading Fast said:


> Kinda a cross post from the "Arts" forum.
> 
> Check out the sweater and the duffle coat from the 1958 movie "Dunkirk:"
> View attachment 32146
> 
> My comment on the movie here: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/threads/best-movie-ever.107521/page-16#post-1916413


I'm not terribly familiar with the region, but is the weather in late May to early June cool enough to warrant wearing such a coat?


----------



## Corcovado

SG_67 said:


> I'm not terribly familiar with the region, but is the weather in late May to early June cool enough to warrant wearing such a coat?


In the summer of 1990, I took a summer trip to England and Scotland. I was there throughout the month of June. I had packed summer clothing. Upon arrival I quickly realized that, in Scotland especially, I needed warmer attire. I purchased a nice, thick woolen sweater and a windbreaker and these items served me well.


----------



## SG_67

Yes but Dunkirk is in northern France. I suppose it’s still spring technically, but that coat seems a bit heavy. 

Oh well, it is a movie after all.


----------



## Fading Fast

SG_67 said:


> I'm not terribly familiar with the region, but is the weather in late May to early June cool enough to warrant wearing such a coat?


Good question - I don't know - I'll let others how are familiar with the region speak to that - but in the movie the soldiers definitely reference it getting cold at night.



eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Have you seen the 2017 remake of the movie Dunkirk? A sobering rendition of the story, for sure. I'm going to find a copy of the 1958 version and watch it to consider the two films in the perspective of the other. With other films, it's been my impression that the original is almost always better than the remake.


I have seen the 2017 one. If you get a chance, take a look at my comments on the movie over in the "Best Ever Movie" thread as I touch on a comparison.

The quick-and-dirty is that the 1958 one is a traditional movie with historical context (although, since it was made only 13 years after the war ended, you can tell they assumed the audience knew a lot) and a pro-Allies point of view.

The 2017 one, IMHO, was a bit "artsy" or "different" where it gave you almost no historical context or "bigger picture" view and pretty much just showed you views of the battle and some windows into the commanders' and civilians' views, but not enough to form your own opinion if you weren't familiar with the history of it to start.

In many ways, the 2017 one felt like a video game to me and, much like the few times I've seen my nephews play them, I find I'm exhausted and unsatisfied despite having compelling moment of action and tidbits of a story.


----------



## Corcovado

I liked the 2017 movie and whatever its shortcomings, I did not feel it was like a video game. It was really an artsy sort of movie, with the story unfolding from different points of view, all culminating (IIRC) in a scene in which all the different points of view are experiencing the same moment of action. When I think of a movie that to me is like a video game, I think of a frantically busy action movie, with a lot of CGI special effects. Dunkirk didn't come off that way to me.


----------



## Fading Fast

Corcovado said:


> I liked the 2017 movie and whatever its shortcomings, I did not feel it was like a video game. It was really an artsy sort of movie, with the story unfolding from different points of view, all culminating (IIRC) in a scene in which all the different points of view are experiencing the same moment of action. When I think of a movie that to me is like a video game, I think of a frantically busy action movie, with a lot of CGI special effects. Dunkirk didn't come off that way to me.


Good points - I hear ya. If interested, check out my fuller comments on the two movies here: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/threads/best-movie-ever.107521/page-16#post-1916413


----------



## eagle2250

Fading Fast said:


> Good question - I don't know - I'll let others how are familiar with the region speak to that - but in the movie the soldiers definitely reference it getting cold at night.
> 
> I have seen the 2017 one. If you get a chance, take a look at my comments on the movie over in the "Best Ever Movie" thread as I touch on a comparison.
> 
> The quick-and-dirty is that the 1958 one is a traditional movie with historical context (although, since it was made only 13 years after the war ended, you can tell they assumed the audience knew a lot) and a pro-Allies point of view.
> 
> The 2017 one, IMHO, was a bit "artsy" or "different" where it gave you almost no historical context or "bigger picture" view and pretty much just showed you views of the battle and some windows into the commanders' and civilians' views, but not enough to form your own opinion if you weren't familiar with the history of it to start.
> 
> In many ways, the 2017 one felt like a video game to me and, much like the few times I've seen my nephews play them, I find I'm exhausted and unsatisfied despite having compelling moment of action and tidbits of a story.


Succinct and to the point Your comparison of the two editions of Dunkirk was sufficient to motivate me to order both from Amazon. I'm looking forward to watching both and making my own comparison. Thanks.


----------



## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> Succinct and to the point Your comparison of the two editions of Dunkirk was sufficient to motivate me to order both from Amazon. I'm looking forward to watching both and making my own comparison. Thanks.


That's awesome - I can't wait to hear your thoughts on them. Hate to do this to you, but have you seen "Mrs. Miniver?" If not, you might want to visit Amazon again. While "Mrs. Miniver" only has a few scenes devoted to Dunkirk, they are powerful scenes and the movie is wonderful in its entirety.


----------



## Peak and Pine

eagle2250 said:


> I'm looking forward to watching both and making my own comparison.


Allow me to help you. I know nothing of the earlier one, and 30 minutes of the later one. Left the theater to enjoy the July sun. Movie opens on lead kid taking a dump in a sand dune, okay, that happens, then cut to beach (coulda been Cony Islsnd, Frenchie stuff missing. Incidentally, how cum this part of France, and in reality, Dunkirk, has an Irish name? But that's not the movie's fault; everything else is.) Endless cuts to Branagh and (I draw a blank) as commanders muttering in movie British about what they should do. And then we get to the heart of the real Dunkirk saga, the floatilla of private craft crossing the channel to evacuate. According to the movie, it musta been just one boat with a grumpy pilot too old to be the father of his mentally obsure and thoroughly obnoxious kid in a Fair Isle sweater who stop to pick up a shell shocked leading Peaky Binder (a really good show check it out) and lock him below, and then I left.

Edit. Blinders, not Binders. Binders has something to do with Mitt Romney and women. I have a tick about getting gang names wrong. Cryptics, Bloodies, Heavens Angels, etc. Will try to be more careful in future if we have any threads concerning gangs.


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## Fading Fast

*The Last Hurrah* from 1958. Jeffery Hunter's clothes are very '50s Ivy, Boston conservative:























⇧ Can't get much more Ivy than a grey-and-white broken herringbone 3/2 sack sport coat, black knit tie and white OCBD.

My comments on the movie itself here:  #188 

Dustin Hoffman used a not-broken herringbone version of the exact same outfit to get Mrs. Robinson to do this in *The Graduate *(clip from the movie). Until it wasn't, nothing was cooler than a man dressed in Ivy.


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## Fading Fast

*Fate is the Hunter* from 1964 has some decent '60s Trad clothing.






























My comments on the movie here:  #197


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## WatchmanJimG

Fading Fast said:


> *The Last Hurrah* from 1958. Jeffery Hunter's clothes are very '50s Ivy, Boston conservative:
> View attachment 33212
> 
> View attachment 33213
> View attachment 33209
> 
> ⇧ Can't get much more Ivy than a grey-and-white broken herringbone 3/2 sack sport coat, black knit tie and white OCBD.
> 
> My comments on the movie itself here:  #188
> 
> Dustin Hoffman used a not-broken herringbone version of the exact same outfit to get Mrs. Robinson to do this in *The Graduate *(clip from the movie). Until it wasn't, nothing was cooler than a man dressed in Ivy.
> View attachment 33214


Great photos! Hoffman's coat appears to be darted. Am I correct?


----------



## Fading Fast

WatchmanJimG said:


> Great photos! Hoffman's coat appears to be darted. Am I correct?


I don't think so - but I could be wrong as it was hard to find a really good pick of the sport coat even when I posted about it here -  #210 - earlier in the year.

My memory of it from the movie says it's a sack, but my memory has also proved to be wrong before.

There is this article that touches on the jacket (toward the end of the article):

https://streetxsprezza.wordpress.com/2017/09/14/dressing-like-dustin-hoffman-in-the-graduate/
but it only calls it a "3/2 roll jacket."

I think sack, but still haven't found the picture that is conclusive.


----------



## WatchmanJimG

Fading Fast said:


> I don't think so - but I could be wrong as it was hard to find a really good pick of the sport coat even when I posted about it here -  #210 - earlier in the year.
> 
> My memory of it from the movie says it's a sack, but my memory has also proved to be wrong before.
> 
> There is this article that touches on the jacket (toward the end of the article):
> 
> https://streetxsprezza.wordpress.com/2017/09/14/dressing-like-dustin-hoffman-in-the-graduate/
> but it only calls it a "3/2 roll jacket."
> 
> I think sack, but still haven't found the picture that is conclusive.


Here's what I just turned up:

"After the suit is shown briefly in this first scene, he then displays the versatility of traditional sportswear. Ben appears to wear sack jackets throughout the film; sack jackets have an un-darted front with a straight silhouette and natural construction. While his jackets are in fact aesthetically sack-like, they are actually darted and feature 2 button fronts, but they still retain natural shoulders, flapped patch hip pockets, rear hook vents, lapped seams, and 2 button cuffs."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/placid...e-film-and-the-clothes-the-graduate-1967/amp/


----------



## Fading Fast

WatchmanJimG said:


> Here's what I just turned up:
> 
> "After the suit is shown briefly in this first scene, he then displays the versatility of traditional sportswear. Ben appears to wear sack jackets throughout the film; sack jackets have an un-darted front with a straight silhouette and natural construction. While his jackets are in fact aesthetically sack-like, they are actually darted and feature 2 button fronts, but they still retain natural shoulders, flapped patch hip pockets, rear hook vents, lapped seams, and 2 button cuffs."
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/placid...e-film-and-the-clothes-the-graduate-1967/amp/


Fantastic article - really good stuff. Also, great call on your part on catching the darts - well done sir.


----------



## WatchmanJimG

Fading Fast said:


> Fantastic article - really good stuff. Also, great call on your part on catching the darts - well done sir.


Thanks for your kind words. I was curious about the backstory after seeing the photos posted earlier. Such an incredible era for tailored clothing!


----------



## Fading Fast

WatchmanJimG said:


> Thanks for your kind words. I was curious about the backstory after seeing the photos posted earlier. Such an incredible era for tailored clothing!


It really is amazing how important tailored clothing was back then - college kids, businessmen, gangsters (amazing but true) all spent time and money on their tailored wardrobes. Guys who didn't wear tailored clothes as part of their work, still had a suit or two in the closet and some cared very much about them.

Sure there were dress codes in some establishments, but in general, the rules weren't written as it really was just an amazing example of common knowledge being more powerful than any written rule as in - everyone knows that everyone knows that men where suits and ties and sport coats and tailored slacks to....


----------



## WatchmanJimG

OK, I couldn't resist the urge to watch the film again and take a few pics. As shown here the blazer, herringbone, and corduroy jackets are all darted while the seersucker appears to be undarted.


----------



## Fading Fast

WatchmanJimG said:


> OK, I couldn't resist the urge to watch the film again and take a few pics. As shown here the blazer, herringbone, and corduroy jackets are all darted while the seersucker appears to be undarted.
> View attachment 33753
> View attachment 33754
> View attachment 33755
> View attachment 33756
> View attachment 33757
> View attachment 33758


Impressive sartorial sleuthing and evidencing - well done.

And what a good movie - not a bad scene in it.


----------



## WatchmanJimG

Fading Fast said:


> Impressive sartorial sleuthing and evidencing - well done.
> 
> And what a good movie - not a bad scene in it.


Having been born in 1967 I sadly missed out on the opportunity to enjoy this era as an adult; however, I remember always loving the clothing style from seeing it on TV reruns. 😜


----------



## Fading Fast

WatchmanJimG said:


> Having been born in 1967 I sadly missed out on the opportunity to enjoy this era as an adult; however, I remember always loving the clothing style from seeing it on TV reruns. 😜


Being born a few years before you - '64 - I, too, never experienced that sartorial world as an adult, but having been an old movie fan from a very young age (my grandmother introduced them to me as soon as I could watch TV - we watched what she wanted), I felt, before I understood the cultural significance, how much better looking those clothes were.

It just seemed that people dressed that way (and I'm talking '30s - pre-hippies '60s) looked nicer, looked more serious, looked more like adults than the way adults were dressing in the '70s.


----------



## Fading Fast

Playing on TCM right now is *The Children's Hour* (an outstanding movie) with James Garner wearing a herringbone 3/2 sack, OCBD, knit tie and flat front trousers


----------



## FiscalDean

How to Stuff a Wild Bikini was on TCM yesterday afternoon. Some nice 3 roll 2 three piece suits. Of course it was a silly movie aimed at teenagers but there were some nice clothes. Oh yeah, there were a few shapely young ladies.


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## Fading Fast

FiscalDean said:


> How to Stuff a Wild Bikini was on TCM yesterday afternoon. Some nice 3 roll 2 three piece suits. Of course it was a silly movie aimed at teenagers but there were some nice clothes. Oh yeah, there were a few shapely young ladies.
> 
> View attachment 33797
> 
> View attachment 33798


I caught about twenty minutes of it before, despite all the quite-attractive, scantily-clad women, I couldn't take the stupid dialogue anymore and bailed out.

There are , as you note, some neat trad clothes. What I found interesting about Rooney's suit (last pick of yours) was that it was double vented and had slanted pockets - looked like what you'd get if an English suit and an Ivy suit had a kid.


----------



## FiscalDean

Fading Fast said:


> I caught about twenty minutes of it before, despite all the quite-attractive, scantily-clad women, I couldn't take the stupid dialogue anymore and bailed out.
> 
> There are , as you note, some neat trad clothes. What I found interesting about Rooney's suit (last pick of yours) was that it was double vented and had slanted pockets - looked like what you'd get if an English suit and an Ivy suit had a kid.


Truth be told, I wasn't watching it very closely, I had it on for background noise more than anything. I didn't even notice that Rooney's suit had doouble vents and side pockets.


----------



## SG_67

Fading Fast said:


> Playing on TCM right now is *The Children's Hour* (an outstanding movie) with James Garner wearing a herringbone 3/2 sack, OCBD, knit tie and flat front trousers
> View attachment 33768


Quite the challenging and risqué topic for the time.

Garner always looked good. It helps that he has the physique for wearing clothes so well.


----------



## Fading Fast

SG_67 said:


> Quite the challenging and risqué topic for the time.
> 
> Garner always looked good. It helps that he has the physique for wearing clothes so well.


Agreed on the movie - it took on a subject that was pretty taboo at the time.

The movie is also a remake of 1936's "These Three," which is very well done too. The '36 version replaces the lesbian crux with one of heterosexual pre-marital sex, which was a big deal at the time (at least for it to be discussed in a movie).

Garner looks great in those clothes as he is so classic American handsome. I've always thought he would have had a bigger career if he had been born twenty years earlier, as, IMHO, his looks actually hurt him by the late '60s when counter-culture heroes were more in style. Garner can grow his hair out, but he'll never look angry / rebel; he'll just look like the hero who missed a few haircuts.

Another good movie where Garner wears classic clothes is "Mr Buddwing," which also has some incredible '66 New York City location shots - it's like time travel to mid-'60s NYC. My favorite Garner move from that period (yes, the ensemble movie, "The Great Escape," but one where he is the sole male lead) is "The Americanization of Emily."


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## SG_67

Fading Fast said:


> My favorite Garner move from that period (yes, the ensemble movie, "The Great Escape,"...


I always loved that turtleneck he wore. He was supposed to be Canadian, no?


----------



## Fading Fast

SG_67 said:


> I always loved that turtleneck he wore. He was supposed to be Canadian, no?


I don't remember that, but maybe. I thought he was an American, but again, not sure.


----------



## SG_67




----------



## eagle2250

^^
James Garner in The Great Escape...put a good looking guy in uniform and he becomes an instantaneous 'Babe Magnet'.......at least that's what the Recruiters told me!


----------



## SG_67

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> James Garner in The Great Escape...put a good looking guy in uniform and he becomes an instantaneous 'Babe Magnet'.......at least that's what the Recruiters told me!


I wonder if that works for Jack Webb in "The DI"


----------



## Fading Fast

From 1954's *The Barefoot Contessa,* which, overall, has an international style, but Bogey, as an American director, dresses pretty Trad:





























My comments on the movie here:  #204


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## Fading Fast

Gene Kelly in* An American in Paris* sports a very American look with his chinos, sweatshirt, pennies (pretty sure) and ball cap:















My comments on the movie here:  #214


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## eagle2250

^^
Gene Kelly...An American In Paris...I'd like to say it was one of his best, but on closer examination Gene Kellys scripts all seemed to follow an incrementally more familiar plot line, each set in a different location. However, as an actor, Kelly did give the viewer a lot of bang for his/her movie buck(s)!


----------



## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Gene Kelly...An American In Paris...I'd like to say it was one of his best, but on closer examination Gene Kellys scripts all seemed to follow an incrementally more familiar plot line, each set in a different location. However, as an actor, Kelly did give the viewer a lot of bang for his/her movie buck(s)!


Agreed and the same thing can be said of Fred Astaire movies with the formula being:

_Astaire + pretty female dance partner + exotic locale or upper-class society setting + minor issue(s) thwarting his efforts to attract pretty dance partner + some other plot nonsense + a bunch of song and dance numbers (the whole reason for the movie) = successful movie that makes plenty of money_​​Laugh (as I do sometimes, while still enjoying the movie), but it worked for three decades for Astaire.


----------



## Fading Fast

Troy Donahue sports a kinda west-coast, horsey trad in *Susan Slade* from 1961:






























My comments on the movie here:  #226


----------



## Ungentleman

I watched "Lethal Weapon" all the way through for the first time the other day, and was surprised to see Danny Glover's character wearing relatively natural shoulders and pinned collars. Pretty trad, especially compared to his partner.


----------



## Vecchio Vespa

I just rewatched _Joe Versus the Volcano_. The chap who sells Joe those marvelous trunks was wearing a very nifty Donegal suit with a Bengal striped shirt and a bow tie. Quite sharp. Plus it's a quirky and charming flick with a better than average soundtrack. You can Youtube the scene with "Are you traveling light or...heavy?" While you're on Youtube you might as well listen to Eric Burdon's version of Sixteen Tons.


----------



## FiscalDean

TCM aired Come Fly With Me yesterday. Hugh O'Brien sported some decent tradly clothes.


----------



## Fading Fast

FiscalDean said:


> TCM aired Come Fly With Me yesterday. Hugh O'Brien sported some decent tradly clothes.
> 
> View attachment 34740


Watched about half of it yesterday - never seemed to really come together as a movie, but great time travel and some, as you note, good trad clothes.


----------



## FiscalDean

Fading Fast said:


> Watched about half of it yesterday - never seemed to really come together as a movie, but great time travel and some, as you note, good trad clothes.


It seems like there were quite a few movies in the early to mid 60's that showcased some good trad attire even thought they weren't great movies.


----------



## Fading Fast

FiscalDean said:


> It seems like there were quite a few movies in the early to mid 60's that showcased some good trad attire even thought they weren't great movies.


You know you've crossed some line that you don't want to admit when you're watching a bad '60s movie just to see if the sport coat some character's wearing has a center hook vent. Of course, I'm talking about what I know a friend of mine does, not me of course - I'd never do that.


----------



## FiscalDean

Fading Fast said:


> You know you've crossed some line that you don't want to admit when you're watching a bad '60s movie just to see if the sport coat some character's wearing has a center hook vent. Of course, I'm talking about what I know a friend of mine does, not me of course - I'd never do that.


Here in Wisconsin's great Northwoods, most activities involve being outside. Today is going to be only the third day this month without rain.


----------



## Troones

Not a movie, but can I mention Michael J. Fox as Alex P. Keaton in the 80's sitcom Family Ties? I happened to see a re-run a few months ago while flipping around on the tube. I was a kid/teen and never really paid attention back then, but Alex was always sharply dressed in some great tweeds and ties, clearly from BB and J. Press (and others I'm sure.) The episode I saw showed him in a great 3/2 roll herringbone with the classic hook vent.


----------



## Fading Fast

I recently watched "A Hologram for the King" in which Tom Hanks wears a couple of some trad-inspired suits.















My comments on the movie here:  #258


----------



## FiscalDean

Watched Dear Brigitte today. Stewart's character wore some pretty good 3 roll 2 sack coats.


----------



## Virtue Aesthetics

Not sure if we said this one yet but I'll put in a vote for "A River Runs Through It". The entire culture of the film felt quite trad, in a geographically and economically agnostic way (my preferred kind of trad anyway).


----------



## Corcovado

I re-watched "Metropolitan" last night. I guess it's been nearly 30 years since I first saw it. Naturally I thought of this forum and this thread, and also the "trad girlfriend" thread, as I watched it. I was not surprised to see that it has already been mentioned in the comments, indeed at the very start, but I was surprised that the mentions were all dismissive. I really like this sweet and often funny movie which seems to have laid some groundwork for Wes Anderson, whose movies I also like.








"Mansfield Park? You got to be kidding."









"I warn you, he's a Fourierist!"


----------



## Dr.Watson

My wife and I rewatched _Metropolitan _recently as well (I bought a pink shetland sweater on sale last summer inspired by the film's "Charlie" character, but on rewatching I think his sweater might actually be cotton). It is such a great movie. Interestingly, several of the female actresses (Sally, Jane, and Audrey's mother) wore their own clothes.

Taylor Nichol's wardrobe in Barcelona is also quite nice. Though his jackets are darted and pants are pleated, all his shirts are voluminous button down collar oxfords.


























Fun fact, Whit Stillman made Chris Eigeman wear a madras jacket in _Barcelona_; the actor hated it so much that Stillman made him wear one again in _Last Days of Disco_.

















And you are right, Wes Anderson actually said he was inspired by Whit Stillman at one point: https://www.whitstillman.org/2013/10/11/wes-anderson-was-inspired-by-whit-stillmans-metropolitan/


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## FiscalDean

Watched Monolith Monsters Saturday night. Made in 1957 and had some fairly trad clothing.


----------



## Fading Fast

In the movie "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" form 1956 (my comments on the movie here:  #340 ), one of the plot twists depends on the main character buying a "generic" grey Tweed overcoat.

Try as I could, the first pic below is the best one I could find of that scene (or the coat). I'm sure a better pic is out there, but I couldn't find it.

As a consolation prize though, the second and third pics are of an incredibly beautiful herringbone overcoat from the movie that plays no part in the plot though.


----------



## Fading Fast

I recently watched the 1956 move "Julie" (comments here  #345  ) with Doris Day, Louis Jordan and Barry Sullivan.

Set and filmed on the West Coast, the clothes were, of course, very mid-'50s America, but you could feel the West Coast as the clothes had fewer East-Coast-Ivy details like OCBDs or 3/2 sport coats.

That said, Sullivan's duffle coat (1st pic) could not have been more Ivy perfect as were some of Doris Day's outfits (women's Ivy, of course - a lot of women in the movie wearing cardigans).


----------



## Corcovado

Aside from the shoulders of the coats, I thought the FBI agents in the movie "Black Mass" looked like they wouldn't be too out of place in this thread.


----------



## Fading Fast

(Cross post from the Tweed Thread)

Kirk Douglas' suit from the movie "Young Man with a Horn:"























He also wore this sport coat (maybe suit, don't remember) in the movie:









My comments on the movie here #355


----------



## Fading Fast

The film noir movie "To Deep for Tears" from '49 (comments on movie here  #372 ) has a lot of "big" late '40s clothes. It was clearly made just before Ivy started to take off. That said, this jacket popped up and I was wondering if anyone knows what kind of pattern it is:








If you enlarge the pic, you'll see that it's got one "stripe" of boxes with a vertical (twill) pattern inside and another "stripe" with (what I think is) nailhead. So some combining and "breaking" of the patterns.

That said, I'm just guessing but thought someone like our very knowledgable @Matt S might know?

Thank you.

Some other clothing pics from the movie:


----------



## Matt S

Fading Fast said:


> The film noir movie "To Deep for Tears" from '49 (comments on movie here  #372 ) has a lot of "big" late '40s clothes. It was clearly made just before Ivy started to take off. That said, this jacket popped up and I was wondering if anyone knows what kind of pattern it is:
> View attachment 45184
> 
> If you enlarge the pic, you'll see that it's got one "stripe" of boxes with a vertical (twill) pattern inside and another "stripe" with (what I think is) nailhead. So some combining and "breaking" of the patterns.
> 
> That said, I'm just guessing but thought someone like our very knowledgable @Matt S might know?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Some other clothing pics from the movie:
> View attachment 45186
> View attachment 45189
> View attachment 45187


That pattern is a combination of a barleycorn weave and a broken diamond twill weave. That must be one complicated weave to set up! It's rather busy for my tastes to wear, but it would make for nice drapes.


----------



## Fading Fast

Matt S said:


> That pattern is a combination of a barleycorn weave and a broken diamond twill weave. That must be one complicated weave to set up! It's rather busy for my tastes to wear, but it would make for nice drapes.


Thank you sir. I always forget about barleycorn.


----------



## Fading Fast

If I can impose on @Matt S again, I'd love to know the pattern in this outstanding sport coat worn by Leslie Howard in 1936's "The Petrified Forest" 























And a rare quote from Mr. Howard, "Matt, what pattern is this in my sport coat" Thank you, LH"


----------



## Matt S

Fading Fast said:


> If I can impose on @Matt S again, I'd love to know the pattern in this outstanding sport coat worn by Leslie Howard in 1936's "The Petrified Forest"
> View attachment 45285
> View attachment 45291
> View attachment 45293
> 
> 
> And a rare quote from Mr. Howard, "Matt, what pattern is this in my sport coat" Thank you, LH"
> View attachment 45294


You've stumped me! I've never seen this pattern before, but it's some type of birdseye. It's not the standard birdseye suiting that you see all the time, but it looks like a more complex variation on that. It's a fascinating pattern up close.

I also like how he's folding back his shirt cuffs. It was a popular thing to do in movies. I used to do that before I got button cuffs that were designed to fold back!


----------



## Flanderian

Fading Fast said:


> If I can impose on @Matt S again, I'd love to know the pattern in this outstanding sport coat worn by Leslie Howard in 1936's "The Petrified Forest"
> View attachment 45285
> View attachment 45291
> View attachment 45293
> 
> 
> And a rare quote from Mr. Howard, "Matt, what pattern is this in my sport coat" Thank you, LH"
> View attachment 45294


To me, it looks as if it might be a version of what I know as a pheasant's eye tweed. I came by that nomenclature via Paul Stuart who from time to time has had tweeds made up in that pattern.










https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/threads/the-pheasants-eye-tweed.231925/


----------



## Fading Fast

Matt S said:


> You've stumped me! I've never seen this pattern before, but it's some type of birdseye. It's not the standard birdseye suiting that you see all the time, but it looks like a more complex variation on that. It's a fascinating pattern up close.
> 
> I also like how he's folding back his shirt cuffs. It was a popular thing to do in movies. I used to do that before I got button cuffs that were designed to fold back!





Flanderian said:


> To me, it looks as if it might be a version of what I know as a pheasant's eye tweed. I came by that nomenclature via Paul Stuart who from time to time has had tweeds made up in that pattern.
> 
> View attachment 45307
> 
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/threads/the-pheasants-eye-tweed.231925/


Thank you guys. It seems like Pheasant Eye Tweed is the answer (awesome pic of Coleman too). It looks like a beautiful pattern, I'd love to see one IRL.

Matt, I, too, noticed the folded back shirt cuffs. For the day, 1936, Howard's outfit - the clothes themselves, how he wears them (tie down, for example) and carries himself (hands casually tucked into side pockets, for example) - is a study in indifferent nonchalance that perfectly fits his character.


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## Flanderian

Fading Fast said:


> Thank you guys. It seems like Pheasant Eye Tweed is the answer (awesome pic of Coleman too). It looks like a beautiful pattern, I'd love to see one IRL.
> 
> Matt, I, too, noticed the folded back shirt cuffs. For the day, 1936, Howard's outfit - the clothes themselves, how he wears them (tie down, for example) and carries himself (hands casually tucked into side pockets, for example) - is a study in indifferent nonchalance that perfectly fits his character.


Presumably, that may be a correct term, though the weave pattern of Howard's jacket appears to be smaller. If my failing memory serves, I was informed of its name via the description for a photo in a Paul Stuart catalog. And I think that pattern was larger yet. Should I come across it, I will see if I can scan it, and post it here.


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## Fading Fast

Flanderian said:


> Presumably, that may be a correct term, though the weave pattern of Howard's jacket appears to be smaller. If my failing memory serves, I was informed of its name via the description for a photo in a Paul Stuart catalog. And I think that pattern was larger yet. Should I come across it, I will see if I can scan it, and post it here.


Good stuff and thank you. I would think a pattern could come in different sizes/scale - think herringbone. I Googled the term and it seems to be a real not just Paul Stuart pattern name.


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## Fading Fast

I have "King Kong" from '33 on in the background and it's amazing how many Trad clothes are in it.

Check out the man's and woman's Polo coats, plus the pea coat (sorry, these were the best pics I could find):






























And this awesome very '30s Tweed suit:









Lastly, note actress Fay Wray wearing an all white dress on a filthy tramp steamer. She, oddly, isn't worried about getting her nice dress dirty, but was concerned enough about her clothes getting mess up that she decided to not wear a bra:


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## eagle2250

Fading Fast said:


> I have "King Kong" from '33 on in the background and it's amazing how many Trad clothes are in it.
> 
> Check out the man's and woman's Polo coats, plus the pea coat (sorry, these were the best pics I could find):
> View attachment 46042
> View attachment 46043
> 
> 
> Lastly, note actress Fay Wray wearing an all white dress on a filthy tramp steamer. She, oddly, isn't worried about getting her nice dress dirty, but was concerned enough about her clothes getting mess up that she decided to not wear a bra:
> View attachment 46049


She may be not wearing a bra, but she does appear to be wearing the latest in women's fashion(s) "Stemmed Teacups!" Rather appealing, I think.


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## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> She may be not wearing a bra, but she does appear to be wearing the latest in women's fashion(s) "Stemmed Teacups!" Rather appealing, I think.


Pretty brazen for 1933.


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## Fading Fast

From the movie "The Gentlemen" (comments here  #402 ). While only some of the clothes are Trad, many have echoes or elements or Trad.

And for starters, check out this looks-like-it-came-from-Ben-Silver getup:









And some more fun ones from the movie (1st pic, overcoat left - very '30s Apparel Arts):















Pretty classic-looking Macintosh ⇩


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## Fading Fast

On TCM now - and on in the backroom as I work - is the 1927 silent "Spring Fever," which seems to be all about young rich people playing golf and flirting heavily (a guess from the little I've seen).

But here's the thing, the movie looks like a Ralph Lauren advertisement forty years before there was a Ralph Lauren company.

The clothes are "Ralph" country club and golf perfect. I had a friend who worked for Ralph Lauren for years and she said they went back to the books, magazines, movies, etc., of the '20s ad '30s for "inspiration" all the time. I'd bet this movie was part of that inspiration.

These pics from the movie all but look like Ralph Lauren ads.















Oh, and that is a ridiculously young (24 years old) Joan Crawford.


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## Fading Fast

Cross post with the Tweed thread.

On mute in the background on TCM right now is the outstanding 1945 British film "Brief Encounter."

There are a lot of cool clothes in it (note the overcoats in the pics below) including several neat Tweeds back when Tweeds were just regular-people clothing.

So far, these are the best pics I could find. Her suit is outstanding and looks better on screen than in the pics.


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## Fading Fast

Despite the movie being filmed in 1969, when the Hippie '60s was in full flower, Rock Hudson's wardrobe in "A Fine Pair" is very '60s Ivy.

He wears a sack suit with a white OCBD and nondescript tie for a chunk of it. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a good pic of it and, while I know it doesn't quite look like it here, on screen, the suit looks flannel.
















Over that suit, he wears a very sixties narrow-lapel raglan-sleeved Tweed overcoat:

















Later on, he also sports a polo coat nicely accessorized with Claudia Cardinali:
















Finally, he wears this classic Shearling:









And, Claudia herself wears this neat raglan-sleeved herringbone tweed overcoat


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## drpeter

Fading Fast said:


> Cross post with the Tweed thread.
> 
> On mute in the background on TCM right now is the outstanding 1945 British film "Brief Encounter."
> 
> There are a lot of cool clothes in it (note the overcoats in the pics below) including several neat Tweeds back when Tweeds were just regular-people clothing.
> 
> So far, these are the best pics I could find. Her suit is outstanding and looks better on screen than in the pics.
> 
> View attachment 47521
> 
> View attachment 47522
> View attachment 47523
> View attachment 47524
> View attachment 47525


It's a beautiful film. It's a study of two people who relate in a quiet but unconventional way within the strictures of a society that is strongly bound up with class and tradition. Quite unlike the large-scale dramas of David Lean's later years. And for once, Trevor Howard isn't swaggering the way he does when playing a lot of his later characters (from Major Calloway in _The Third Man_ to Captain Bligh in _Mutiny on the Bounty_). Nice stills, @Fading Fast!


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## Fading Fast

drpeter said:


> It's a beautiful film. It's a study of two people who relate in a quiet but unconventional way within the strictures of a society that is strongly bound up with class and tradition. Quite unlike the large-scale dramas of David Lean's later years. And for once, Trevor Howard isn't swaggering the way he does when playing a lot of his later characters (from Major Calloway in _The Third Man_ to Captain Bligh in _Mutiny on the Bounty_). Nice stills, @Fading Fast!


I agree, it's a wonderful movie, very real to life.

Have you seen David Lean's "Madeliene" or "The Passionate Friends?" (Comments on "Madeliene" here #26641 and "The Passionate Friends" here #26694.)

Both are outstanding efforts and closer to "Brief Encounter" in style than Lean's later efforts like "Dr. Zhivoago" or "Lawrence of Arabia."


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## drpeter

Fading Fast said:


> I agree, it's a wonderful movie, very real to life.
> 
> Have you seen David Lean's "Madeliene" or "The Passionate Friends?" (Comments on "Madeliene" here #26641 and "The Passionate Friends" here #26694.)
> 
> Both are outstanding efforts and closer to "Brief Encounter" in style than Lean's later efforts like "Dr. Zhivoago" or "Lawrence of Arabia."


Yes, I've heard of both of those films, but no, I have not seen either. Thank you for pointing them out to me, I'll look for them on TCM and other sources. The way you describe them, they are certainly more like _Brief Encounter_. Like many an _auteur_ director, Lean seems to have assembled a set of actors whom he used in multiple films, like Ann Todd and Trevor Howard.

The early David Lean reminds me of another great director whose films I absolutely love: Yasujiro Ozu, the pre-eminent Japanese director of the last century -- in my opinion, even more powerful than Akira Kurosawa. Ozu is a director who works on a small scale and explores intimate human relationships. A meticulous artist who understands how to use subtext, he is a master at evoking emotion and at artful elision._ Tokyo Story_ is consistently on my list of top ten films of all time. _Early Spring_, and his last venture, _An Autumn Afternoon_, are both very fine films_. _Ozu's films don't play as well to mainstream Western audiences as Kurosawa's because they are seen as slow -- this is mainly because they are used to the faster pace and more dramatic tone of Hollywood films.

Side note: A large number of Ozu's films, mostly silent films from the early twentieth century, were destroyed during the Allied bombing raids of Tokyo in WWII. A sad case of collateral damage, and a loss to those of us who love his films. I keep hoping someone will discover a trove of prints that somehow survived the bombing!


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## Fading Fast

I've never seen 1982's "Best Friends" but I had it on, on mute, in the background this morning (looks like a typical schmaltzy early '80s couples-love-each-other-but-fight-a-lot movie).

Burt Reynolds' character wears a bunch of Trad clothes in it.

Despite the late '60s and '70s style broadside, classic attire was still quite common in the '80s (and '90s and, even, the '00s).

A grey herringbone sport coat, OCBD and conservative tie (sorry, best pic of it I could find).









A '50s-style college scarf.









And a trenchcoat.


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## Fading Fast

Caught a few minutes of two James Garner movies, "Grand Prix" and "36 Hours," yesterday and he was wearing a different grey herringbone sport coat in each. A quick search told me what I thought, he was a big fan a sport coats and big fan of grey herringbone ones.






























Kinda funny, but I couldn't find an online pic of the grey herringbone one he wore in "Grand Prix."


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## eagle2250

Fading Fast said:


> Caught a few minutes of two James Garner movies, "Grand Prix" and "36 Hours," yesterday and he was wearing a different grey herringbone sport coat in each. A quick search told me what I thought, he was a big fan a sport coats and big fan of grey herringbone ones.
> View attachment 48786
> View attachment 48787
> View attachment 48788
> View attachment 48789
> 
> 
> Kinda funny, but I couldn't find an online pic of the grey herringbone one he wore in "Grand Prix."


Grey Herringbone jackets? Indeed, he wore them so well, Garner stood out in "a league of his own!" I can think of no other who wore thew grey herringbone quite so well.


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## Fading Fast

eagle2250 said:


> Grey Herringbone jackets? Indeed, he wore them so well, Garner stood out in "a league of his own!" I can think of no other who wore thew grey herringbone quite so well.


I grew up watching "The Rockford Files" on Friday nights. Maybe that's were I got my love of grey herringbone sport coats.


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## Fading Fast

The other day, I caught five minutes of 1963's "The Prize" where Paul Newman wears this very cool raglan overcoat.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the material? Sometimes I think wool and sometimes some type of raincoat material, especially in the last pic where it is (crazy) wrinkled like some raincoat materials can.

@Matt S your expert opinion is always much appreciated.























And the blonde who is telling Newman his coat is ridiculously wrinkled is Elke Sommer.


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## Doctor Damage

Fading Fast said:


> Caught a few minutes of two James Garner movies, "Grand Prix" and "36 Hours," yesterday and he was wearing a different grey herringbone sport coat in each. A quick search told me what I thought, he was a big fan a sport coats and big fan of grey herringbone ones.
> View attachment 48786
> View attachment 48789
> 
> 
> Kinda funny, but I couldn't find an online pic of the grey herringbone one he wore in "Grand Prix."


These two photos (the first and the fourth) are from "Marlowe" which was a great movie and his wardrobe was extremely ivy/trad/etc in that film. Recommended.


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## Matt S

Fading Fast said:


> The other day, I caught five minutes of 1963's "The Prize" where Paul Newman wears this very cool raglan overcoat.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the material? Sometimes I think wool and sometimes some type of raincoat material, especially in the last pic where it is (crazy) wrinkled like some raincoat materials can.
> 
> @Matt S your expert opinion is always much appreciated.
> View attachment 49021
> 
> View attachment 49022
> View attachment 49023
> 
> And the blonde who is telling Newman his coat is ridiculously wrinkled is Elke Sommer.


Balmacaans are traditionally made of tweed or cotton gabardine. You could never get tweed to wrinkle like that if you tried, so this is possibly cotton gabardine. Is there a reason in the film why his coat got so wrinkled?


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## Fading Fast

Matt S said:


> Balmacaans are traditionally made of tweed or cotton gabardine. You could never get tweed to wrinkle like that if you tried, so this is possibly cotton gabardine. Is there a reason in the film why his coat got so wrinkled?


Thank you, that makes sense.

I just happened to see the coat on TCM as I keep it on mute in the background and catch bits and pieces of the movies like I did, yesterday, when this coat popped up.

It's been a while since I've seen the movie proper, so I don't remember why the coat is that wrinkled. Newman's character in the movie is traveling and does get into some chase scenes, etc, but I don't remember if the coat was wrinkled for those reasons.

Thank you again Matt - always appreciate your insight.


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## FiscalDean

I watched the V.I.P.'s on TCM the other day. Louis Jourdan sported a nice 3 roll 2 tweed sport coat for most of the movie.


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## Fading Fast

FiscalDean said:


> I watched the V.I.P.'s on TCM the other day. Louis Jourdan sported a nice 3 roll 2 tweed sport coat for most of the movie.
> View attachment 49057


Love his sport coat. In the great-minds-think-alike category, I posted similar thoughts a few years ago. 
 #3,255


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## Fading Fast

@Matt S this similar-to-Newman's coat (a few posts above) but, obviously, not with raglan sleeves, just popped up in the 1958 movie "The Last Hurrah." Like Newman's, it's hard to tell if the material is Tweed or cotton-gaberdine raincoat, but the wrinkle in the collar tip has me leaning raincoat. Thoughts? Thank you.


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## Matt S

Fading Fast said:


> View attachment 49218
> 
> 
> @Matt S this similar-to-Newman's coat (a few posts above) but, obviously, not with raglan sleeves, just popped up in the 1958 movie "The Last Hurrah." Like Newman's, it's hard to tell if the material is Tweed or cotton-gaberdine raincoat, but the wrinkle in the collar tip has me leaning raincoat. Thoughts? Thank you.


I would agree. You don't see many checked raincoats these days.


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## Corcovado

Moneyball


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## FiscalDean

Watched a bit of Paul Newman recently in "the Drowning Pool" He had some pretty good collar roll going on in this film.


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## drpeter

FiscalDean said:


> Watched a bit of Paul Newman recently in "the Drowning Pool" He had some pretty good collar roll going on in this film.
> 
> View attachment 50681


I watched the last three-quarters of this film too! It was on the TCM channel.

Newman does sport half-sleeved shirts with ties and jackets in the film. This practice is not very common, although there may have been a time in the fifties or sixties in the US when this was more often seen, or perhaps it was prevalent in warmer parts of the country.


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## Corcovado




----------



## FiscalDean

The High Cost of Loving from 1958.


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## Fading Fast

FiscalDean said:


> View attachment 51973
> 
> 
> The High Cost of Loving from 1958.


I had it on in the background on mute yesterday. As in your pic, there is a lot of really good Trad clothing in that one.


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## ChadHahn

Corcovado said:


> View attachment 51411
> View attachment 51412
> View attachment 51413
> View attachment 51414


It's been so long since I watched Diner. Is the guy on the left what's his name from Wings?


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## FJW

ChadHahn said:


> It's been so long since I watched Diner. Is the guy on the left what's his name from Wings?


Yes it is, Tim Daly...

Also Mickey O'Rourke, Daniel Stern, Kevin Bacon, Paul Reiser and Steve Guttenberg


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## ChadHahn

FJW said:


> Yes it is, Tim Daly...
> 
> Also Mickey O'Rourke, Daniel Stern, Kevin Bacon, Paul Reiser and Steve Guttenberg


I remember all those people being in it but not Daly.


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## Corcovado

The Talented Mr. Ripley.


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## Fading Fast

From the 1948 movie "Rope" (comments here:  #542 ).

While probably not really Trad (not that I truly know what that term means anyway), I thought this heavy wool, three piece, with a faint herringbone pattern, three button (not 3/2), single breasted, peak lapel suit worn by Jimmy Stewart was worth noting. Also, check out his gorgeous pin-dot (is that the right term?) tie and collar pin.


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## drpeter

Nice images! _Rope_ is a classic Alfred Hitchcock film, and I think I last saw it when I taught a film class on the cinema of Hitchcock in collaboration with my film professor colleague and good friend Roger Bullis, here at the university. That was in the late 1990s.

I love Stewart's suit, especially the lapels which are rolled properly. These days, dry cleaners often press lapels flat, ruining the elegance of a well-cut lapel. I had to work very hard to get my own cleaners to understand what I wanted, and I used to give them diagrams to show their worker how to do it. Should have send them photos, never thought of that! Their unwanted pressing can be undone, though, using a clothes steamer.

However, I think the tie is a simple twill weave, sinilar to the one you see on trousers. Pindots would be very small dots, usually white against a solid background. Here's an example of a pindot fabric:










This is a twill weave (if you enlarge it, you will see the clear diagonal weave):


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## Fading Fast

drpeter said:


> Nice images! _Rope_ is a classic Alfred Hitchcock film, and I think I last saw it when I taught a film class on the cinema of Hitchcock in collaboration with my film professor colleague and good friend Roger Bullis, here at the university.
> 
> However, I think the tie is a simple twill weave, sinilar to the one you see on trousers. Pindots would be very small dots, usually white against a solid background. Here's an example of a pindot fabric:
> 
> View attachment 52845
> 
> 
> This is a twill weave (if you enlarge it, you will see the clear diagonal weave):
> 
> View attachment 52846


Thank you, that makes sense.

It's very neat and impressive that you taught film.


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## drpeter

Fading Fast said:


> Thank you, that makes sense.
> 
> It's very neat and impressive that you taught film.


You're most welcome.

Hitchcock is one of the most psychological of all directors, and these days people in my discipline (the cognitive sciences in general) are studying both cinema and literature from the perspective of cognitive psychology -- perception, memory, language, etc. I have had a background in appreciating film from early days as a member of a film society which taught me to understand serious, good cinema. My colleague has a background in American film (he wrote a dissertation on noir films, especially Chandler and Hammett), so he thought I would be a good person to work with him to provide some of the international film experience.

I loved teaching across departmental lines -- I taught a course with an English professor on the post-colonial novel (he invited me to do so after he had read my first novel, LOL), and several courses jointly with a philosopher of science on consciousness, mind and brain, etc. Once I slipped in two textbook suggestions into one of my syllabi just for the benefit of friends and colleagues, but kept it from getting into students' hands:

_Philosophy of Mind for Dummies_
and
_The Complete Idiot's Guide to Cognitive Neuroscience_.

Just good clean fun, LOL.


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## peterc

I re-watched The Front (1976) recently. Woody's grey fleck ventless jacket is very nice and it has a half belt in the back. He also wears a nice grey 2 piece suit, that has a watch pocket flap on the right. Makes me think the suit was PRL, but not sure about the jacket. Unlike later WA films, RL's name does not appear on the credits. Incredible movie, by the way.


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## drpeter

Yes, it was a good movie, although some critics did not feel that the ramifications of the paranoid style of politics during that time in our nation's history was treated effectively in the film. Two things I remember from my reading about those times:

The gifted screenwriter Dalton Trumbo, who was part of the front, "won" an Oscar for the script of _Roman Holiday_ -- his friend Ian Hunter was the one whose name was on the credits, and who picked up the Oscar. In fact, Trumbo's script for _Spartacus_ was the breakthrough screenplay when he finally got credit for his fine script. And that script is full of allusions to the blacklisting. There's a 2015 film _Trumbo_ which is about his life.

The talented director Joseph Losey (_The Servant, King and Country_) was lost to the United States as part of the HUAC investigations. Losey, who was from my state (La Crosse, Wisconsin), and attended the same high school in La Crosse that Nicholas Ray attended, moved to England permanently, and made most of his films there. The other notable director from Wisconsin was Orson Welles -- he was from Kenosha, but wasn't involved in any of the blacklisting, at least not to my knowledge.

Many in Hollywood succumbed to the pressure and named names, Edward G Robinson notable among them -- he named Dalton Trumbo to the Committee. And some didn't, Humphrey Bogart being one of those exceptions. Bogie stood up against McCarthy's efforts and held fast -- he did not name names. I've always admired Bogie for that, in addition to the many fine roles he inhabited as an actor.


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## peterc

DrPeter, your above post is fantastic and informative. Thank you. I have seen the Trumbo film - I liked it very much. Waldo Salt was another whose career was severely impacted by the blacklist. He wrote the screenplay for Midnight Cowboy, one of my favorite films. His daughter, Jennifer Salt, played Joe Buck's girlfriend in the movie.


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## drpeter

Thank you for your kind words. I have taught film classes in addition to psychology/neuroscience at my university, so one picks up a certain amount of information doing that.

I saw Midnight Cowboy a long time ago. I had heard of Salt at that time, but did not know his life too had been affected by the blacklist. So much craziness, and for what? Human beings can be so deeply flawed, and can also be fooled into going along with every type of lunacy. As we can see, that hasn't changed much in the ensuing years! Oh well.


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## rl1856

" Yes, it was a good movie, although some critics did not feel that the ramifications of the paranoid style of politics during that time in our nation's history was treated effectively in the film."

For the most part it was a typical WA movie. A local guy from the neighborhood trying to be a "Macher"; a Yiddish term meaning the Boss or someone with power and influence. WA's character gets involved with a women, gets in over his head with his scheme and ultimately someone else pays a large price.

I thought it was a lightweight movie until the end credits. WA made sure to use as many blacklisted movie industry workers as possible. Each name is credited along with their association to HUAC investigations. That touch put everything into perspective, and made you realize that what you saw was not the plight of a few people, but what happened across the country.


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## peterc

drpeter said:


> Thank you for your kind words. I have taught film classes in addition to psychology/neuroscience at my university, so one picks up a certain amount of information doing that.
> 
> I saw Midnight Cowboy a long time ago. I had heard of Salt at that time, but did not know his life too had been affected by the blacklist. So much craziness, and for what? Human beings can be so deeply flawed, and can can also be fooled into going along with every type of lunacy. As we can see, that hasn't changed much in the ensuing years! Oh well.


You are so right...


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## drpeter

rl1856 said:


> " Yes, it was a good movie, although some critics did not feel that the ramifications of the paranoid style of politics during that time in our nation's history was treated effectively in the film."
> 
> For the most part it was a typical WA movie. A local guy from the neighborhood trying to be a "Macher"; a Yiddish term meaning the Boss or someone with power and influence. WA's character gets involved with a women, gets in over his head with his scheme and ultimately someone else pays a large price.
> 
> I thought it was a lightweight movie until the end credits. WA made sure to use as many blacklisted movie industry workers as possible. Each name is credited along with their association to HUAC investigations. That touch put everything into perspective, and made you realize that what you saw was not the plight of a few people, but what happened across the country.


You've touched upon something very important.

This technique, if that's the right word, of a film's story-telling is something that I really like: The story proceeds along a certain plane, but then, very briefly, there is a scene, or information revealed, in a very oblique, tangential fashion, which makes you realize that the film is about something else at a deeper level. It requires some patience, but the final effect can be powerful. It is so subtle at times, that the realization is almost a victory on the part of the viewer, an "I get it!" moment.

Among the films I have seen, one stands out especially in its effective use of this method: _L'Empire des Sens_, (titled _In the Realm of the Senses_, in the US), a French-Japanese film directed by Nagisa Oshima. It is about the intense, obsessive sexual relationship between a prostitute and the owner of the hotel where she meets her clients, set during the mid-1930s. It's a very controversial film, ostensibly about obsession and intimacy, but there is one brief shot at the very end that changes the entire meaning of the film, in an astonishing way. This is a shot of Japanese soldiers marching off to war, and we realize it is the end of the 1930s and Japan has entered the Second World War. To my way of thinking, this shot changed the significance of all the events that had gone before in the film, and placed those events against a historical backdrop that constituted the subtext of the film, and lent a new meaning to the obsession that the film depicted.

IMHO, a work of art succeeds especially well when it has multiple levels of meaning. As a fiction writer, I know that what is left unsaid in a scene is more important than what is being made explicit. As one matures as a writer, one begins to internalize some of these techniques, so that writing a scene with depth and subtext becomes second nature. As John Gardner maintains, the need for profluence, and for maintaining a "vivid and continuous dream" in the mind of the reader is a necessity for good writing. This is also true for filmmaking, I think.

A wonderful little book by the novelist Charles Baxter, called _The Art of the Subtext_ is a must if one wants to understand the use of subtext in fiction.


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## drpeter

Just watched _The Talented Mr Ripley_ again today -- I last saw it in a movie theatre when it came out in 1999/2000. A splendid, dark film. The clothes are, of course, very much in the trad spirit, although there is more variation and some departures, of course. Although the story is set in the fifties, as I recall, some of the production details are not quite spot on, so that there are details of objects that could have been from a later date. But that's a very minor quibble. The late Anthony Minghella's direction is superb, and of course, the editing (which can make or break a film) is by the phenomenal genius Walter Murch. The acting by all four principal actors (Damon, Law, Paltrow and Blanchett) is also superb.


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## Fading Fast

drpeter said:


> Just watched _The Talented Mr Ripley_ again today -- I last saw it in a movie theatre when it came out in 1999/2000. A splendid, dark film. The clothes are, of course, very much in the trad spirit, although there is more variation and some departures, of course. Although the story is set in the fifties, as I recall, some of the production details are not quite spot on, so that there are details of objects that could have been from a later date. But that's a very minor quibble. The late Anthony Minghella's direction is superb, and of course, the editing (which can make or break a film) is by the phenomenal genius Walter Murch. The acting by all four principal actors (Damon, Law, Paltrow and Blanchett) is also superb.


Agreed. It's a fun movie and visually beautiful. My comments on it here  #400  (but please feel free to ignore as we all have a lot going one).


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## Fading Fast

Jack Lemmon's clothes in 1960's* The Apartment* (comments on movie here:  #555 ) are nearly perfect early-'60s Trad/Ivy: sack suits, OCBDs, rep ties, pin collars (note the pin hanging on one side in the first pic), cardigans and a balmacaan raincoat.


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## drpeter

And don't forget: A crisp white dress with pearls, a snappy skirt suit, and a comfy tartan dressing gown. The future is female, Faders. I have a magnet that says so on my fridge door, so it must definitely be true. If we don't pay attention to the smarter sex, we are doomed. As our own Eagle often reminds us in his Platonic discourses on SWMBO.


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## rl1856

drpeter said:


> You've touched upon something very important.
> 
> This technique, if that's the right word, of a film's story-telling is something that I really like: The story proceeds along a certain plane, but then, very briefly, there is a scene, or information revealed, in a very oblique, tangential fashion, which makes you realize that the film is about something else at a deeper level. It requires some patience, but the final effect can be powerful. It is so subtle at times, that the realization is almost a victory on the part of the viewer, an "I get it!" moment.
> 
> Among the films I have seen, one stands out especially in its effective use of this method: _L'Empire des Sens_, (titled _In the Realm of the Senses_, in the US), a French-Japanese film directed by Nagisa Oshima. It is about the intense, obsessive sexual relationship between a prostitute and the owner of the hotel where she meets her clients, set during the mid-1930s. It's a very controversial film, ostensibly about obsession and intimacy, but there is one brief shot at the very end that changes the entire meaning of the film, in an astonishing way. This is a shot of Japanese soldiers marching off to war, and we realize it is the end of the 1930s and Japan has entered the Second World War. To my way of thinking, this shot changed the significance of all the events that had gone before in the film, and placed those events against a historical backdrop that constituted the subtext of the film, and lent a new meaning to the obsession that the film depicted.
> 
> IMHO, a work of art succeeds especially well when it has multiple levels of meaning. As a fiction writer, I know that what is left unsaid in a scene is more important than what is being made explicit. As one matures as a writer, one begins to internalize some of these techniques, so that writing a scene with depth and subtext becomes second nature. As John Gardner maintains, the need for profluence, and for maintaining a "vivid and continuous dream" in the mind of the reader is a necessity for good writing. This is also true for filmmaking, I think.
> 
> A wonderful little book by the novelist Charles Baxter, called _The Art of the Subtext_ is a must if one wants to understand the use of subtext in fiction.


Please forgive including this lengthy but incisive post in my reply.

DrPeter: What are your thoughts regarding Elia Kazan's "A Face In The Crowd" given the past 4yrs of history ?


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## drpeter

rl1856 said:


> Please forgive including this lengthy but incisive post in my reply.
> 
> DrPeter: What are your thoughts regarding Elia Kazan's "A Face In The Crowd" given the past 4yrs of history ?


I have not seen the film so I can't comment directly. I have heard that it is seen as a precursor to some of the events of the past four years of US history, but without seeing the film, it would be hard for me to comment on the connection. I have also read that Francois Truffaut admired the film, but that was quite some time ago.


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## Fading Fast

There are a lot of nice Trad clothes in the 2000 movie "The Legend of Bagger Vance" (comments on the movie itself here:  #701 )


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## Fading Fast

Cross post with the "It's Tweed Season" thread.

From 1970 movie "The Owl and the Pussycat" (which I have never seen and will never see as one of my goals in life is to never see another movie with Barbara Streisand in it).

Note his Tweed-reversible-raincoat, a classic item that has all but disappeared. It doesn't show in this pic, but the "reverse" side of his coat is a tan cotton raincoat.


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## FiscalDean

Fading Fast said:


> Cross post with the "It's Tweed Season" thread.
> 
> From 1970 movie "The Owl and the Pussycat" (which I have never seen and will never see as one of my goals in life is to never see another movie with Barbara Streisand in it).
> 
> Note his Tweed-reversible-raincoat, a classic item that has all but disappeared. It doesn't show in this pic, but the "reverse" side of his coat is a tan cotton raincoat.
> View attachment 62336
> View attachment 62337


I have to say, we share the same goal!


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## FiscalDean

I did watch Blume in Love on TCM yesterday and George Segal sported some nice 3 roll 2 coats but I'm not finding any images on-line.


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## Fading Fast

From the 1951 movie "On Dangerous Ground" (comments here:  #753 ). Cool clothes in general, but note, in particular, the raglan overcoat on the gentleman to the far left, which I believe is a "reversible" coat, meaning the coat "reverses" from its Tweed side to a raincoat side. You can see a bit of the tan cotton (or blend) raincoat side from the lapel on the Tweed side.

It's similar to this one from O'Connells:
https://oconnellsclothing.com/chrysalis-runcorn-reversible-raincoat-speckled-tweed-hbf-runcorn-hbf-speckled-eotr.html


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## Fading Fast

Cary Grant in the movie "People Will Talk" from 1951 (comments here:  #767 ). There are a lot of nice Trad clothes in this one.


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## eagle2250

Fading Fast said:


> Cary Grant in the movie "People Will Talk" from 1951 (comments here:  #767 ). There are a lot of nice Trad clothes in this one.
> View attachment 63450
> 
> View attachment 63452
> 
> 
> View attachment 63453
> View attachment 63456


Based on your review, my friend, I am going to have to see that movie!


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## Fading Fast

Jack Lemmon wears some very (early '60s) trad clothes - rounded pinned collars (@DCR, thought you'd like seeing it), rep ties, sack suits and cardigans with dress trousers for relaxing - in 1962's "The Notorious Landlady" (comments on the movie itself here:  #833 )


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## drpeter

Fading Fast said:


> View attachment 63392
> 
> From the 1951 movie "On Dangerous Ground" (comments here:  #753 ). Cool clothes in general, but note, in particular, the raglan overcoat on the gentleman to the far left, which I believe is a "reversible" coat, meaning the coat "reverses" from its Tweed side to a raincoat side. You can see a bit of the tan cotton (or blend) raincoat side from the lapel on the Tweed side.
> 
> It's similar to this one from O'Connells:
> https://oconnellsclothing.com/chrysalis-runcorn-reversible-raincoat-speckled-tweed-hbf-runcorn-hbf-speckled-eotr.html
> View attachment 63394


I picked the tall actor to the right of the frame correctly as Robert Ryan. But I was misled by the woman he is talking to. I thought to myself, surely it's Lauren Bacall, but it is actually Nita Talbot. She is the spittin' image of Lauren Bacall in this shot, especially sporting "The Look" first made famous in _To Have and Have Not_, one of my favourite old Bogart/Bacall films: The side parting of the hair, the sultry, upward glance, that lovely hand on an equally lovely hip, the crossed leg showing a bit of calf. It's a great still!


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