# Hierarchy of sub-$1000 suits



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I thought it might be useful for us collectively to work out a hierarchy of sub-$1000 suits. I've found a few suit-hierarchy threads, but they are too broad and feature fights over such things about whether RLPL is better than Kiton or such things, which to me is like a fight I used to have with my friends when we were 12 about which were better, Lamborghinis or Ferraris. For those of us who are more focused on Honda CR-Vs, what matters more are the various budget offerings. So let's agree to cap the discussion by using, say, the Brooks 1818, which is roughly $1000, as our top benchmark. And include the different options now available to us. These include, in no particular order:

Brooks Essential Suitings
Brooks 346
Lands End
Wizard of Aahs Daniele
TM Lewin
C. Tyrwhitt
Mondaine?
Hardwick via. Menssuitseparates.com
Hickey
Hickey LTD

Anything else we should add to this list?
Anyone want to begin by offering some thoughts, based on personal experience, regarding, say, whether they found their TM Lewin to be > or < their 346? You get the idea.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Southwick
Hart Schaffner Marx
Jack Victor
Coppley
Peter Millar
Graham & Gunn
Austin Reed
Daniel Cremeuix
Hugo Boss


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

No experience, but do you want to also include MTM options such as mytailor and ravis etc. Those are sub-$1000 if I am not mistaken.

(For that matter, is there a list of the MTMs with their pricepoints somewhere?)


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

It's a good thing that nolan50410 included Hart Schaffner and Marx. I have half dozen HSM Gold Trumpeters in two piece suits, a blazer, and a couple of sport coats and they have been great garments given the fact that they can be had for a fraction of their retail price if you keep a close lookout.

It's difficult because there are several, (that I can think of) over $1000.- suits that can be had for much less if you know what you want and keep a close lookout. I honestly can't recall the last time I paid retail price for a suit, blazer, or sport coat.

For example I have a Ralph Lauren purple label suit and a sport coat that are made from cloth with a wonderful hand and I picked them both up for about 1/3 their retail price.

I have a very nice Oxford suit that I picked up for $550-. The examples go on and on. 

I don't think Land's End or Brooks 346 should be included at all. And I'm about to find out about Hardwick because I just received notice today that my special order has shipped.

I completely agree with including mytailor.com suits as I have two of their suits and three or four sport coats that have turned out to be bargains given that they fit me like a glove, they're fully canvassed, and they have every custom feature I could want.


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## WBuffettJr (Dec 3, 2008)

I'd certainly welcome any suggestions on how to grab RL Purple label for 1/3 retail. I check Last Call and Off Fifth regularly, but so far no luck in finding Purple Label suits or sport coats.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I tend to agree about the $1000 retail threshold. It really means very little. It doesn't take a lot of research or patience to pick up brand new suits for less than retail.

A BB 1818 suit is a very solid suit, but you'd be a fool to pay $898 for one of them. On December 26 they will be $600 or lower. During F&F sales and such (about 4 or 5 times a year), they can be had for 25% off, or about $599 a piece if you get two.

A Ralph Lauren (Polo, made in Italy by Corneliani) can be had twice a year for $800 or less with their private sales. Black Label items will be at similar prices.

My local retailers always send out coupon books to their customers at the start of each season. So twice a year, I get 20% off coupons for any suit in stock. That makes a brand new, full canvas, off the rack Samuelsohn close to your $1000 mark. There isn't a suit on those lists that come close to a Sammy.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

WBuffettJr said:


> I'd certainly welcome any suggestions on how to grab RL Purple label for 1/3 retail. I check Last Call and Off Fifth regularly, but so far no luck in finding Purple Label suits or sport coats.


Good thing to check regularly but be sure to check as many sources as you can. Also don't have your mind sent on just a RL Purple. Find out what you need in Southwick, HS&M, HF, etc. Do this and you'll be able to put together a very nice wardrobe.

An added benefit for me is that every time I put on a given suit or sport coat I remember how little I paid for it!


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

127.72 MHz said:


> It's a good thing that nolan50410 included Hart Schaffner and Marx. I have half dozen HSM Gold Trumpeters in two piece suits, a blazer, and a couple of sport coats and they have been great garments...


I agree that the USA-made HSM GTs are good suits.

Ben Silver offers a USA-made grey flannel suit this fall for below the OP's price threshold.

J Press offers some Pressidential suits for less than 1K.

Local stores (e.g., Eddie Jacobs, O'Connell's) have inhouse suits (some USA-made) for less than the magic number.

Haspel seersucker and poplin suits are typically very inexpensive. However, they are seasonal.

I'm surprised you're not considering JAB, with their "Buy X, Get Y Free" sales.

Finally, if you're going to include Lands End, why not include JC Penney, Target, J Crew, or WalMart?

***

Sub-1K is a BIG category that includes very good stuff and very bad stuff. It might be better to further refine it by construction, materials, made-in-the-USA, style, etc. or else this list could get crazy long pretty quick. Or make it a little harder by lowering the price point to something like $499.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok, ok. Good points, all.

So let's lower the price point to $499, which eliminates a lot of the "high-end stuff on deep discount" possibilities.

We still have:

Brooks Suiting Essentials
Brooks 346
Wizard of Aah
Lands End
TM Lewin
C Tyrwhitt (on sale)
Hardwick
Jack Victor
Alfani
JAB (Exec, Sig, Sig Gold)
????

I want to rule out Target, Walmart, etc. since I doubt any of us would go there for a suit. Or would we?


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## Dizzy99 (Sep 17, 2010)

This is a good thread. Would anyone be willing to take a shot at actually ranking them? 

For example, I can go to the outlets and take down the $500-600 HF, Zegna suits OTR. The problem is they are 40/34 and I actually need a 40/32. Would something like from say TM Lewin or CT which allows off their website to basically get suit separates be better than the $500 OTR suits from Zegna or HF at the outlet?

My issue is I'd like a sleek, modern suit. All of my suits are 1 pleat, 3 button. They fit nicely but at 5'10" 160 I'd prefer the 40/32 flat front type of look. TM Lewin has a sale right now, I know a lot of people are lukewarm on it but for a workman suit at this point and the sale off their site, might be a decent buy.


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## 4dgt90 (Dec 2, 2009)

LOL at WallyWord and Tarjay



Snow Hill Pond said:


> Finally, if you're going to include Lands End, why not include JC Penney, Target, J Crew, or WalMart?


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

tocqueville said:


> Ok, ok. Good points, all.
> 
> So let's lower the price point to $499, which eliminates a lot of the "high-end stuff on deep discount" possibilities.
> 
> ...


Honestly, they are all fused suits with mediocre or far worse fabrics. I'm not trying to be snobbish, but that is the reality of that list. If I had to pick one, it would be the one that is easiest to get and looks the best with the least amount of alterations.


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

Jack Victor is half canvased, and I think the Wiz's are full(?).


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

nolan50410 said:


> Honestly, they are all fused suits with mediocre or far worse fabrics. I'm not trying to be snobbish, but that is the reality of that list. If I had to pick one, it would be the one that is easiest to get and looks the best with the least amount of alterations.


True. And by that logic, the only way for those of us with tight budgets should ever buy a suit is by saving up and jumping on a once or twice-a-year sale at Brooks, or putting a lot of effort into scoring that marked down HSM GT or RLPL....this approach has done me some good: I scored my only 1818 that way, and I picked up my HF blazer on Ebay for $45. But then those TM Lewin catalogues come my way, and I ask myself, could that suit marked down to $350 be that bad?


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I just bought a suit from the Wiz; Francois confirms it is fused and half-canvassed. Luckily for me, the jacket needed only to have the sleeves shortened. According to Francois, the jacket fits just right everywhere else, which I found kind of amazing.

OK I would have thought a full canvassed MTM would rank ahead of many OTR and of most fused suits, but I suppose there are other factors. . . (?) Of course if stuff fits you perfectly off the rack, that's another thing. And I don't know which of the sub-$1000 are fused vs. canvassed.

Would it be OK to start a thread to list and discuss the MTM companies?


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

CAG said:


> Jack Victor is half canvased, and I think the Wiz's are full(?).


The Jack Victor suits that are half canvassed sell for $795 and up. They make a cheaper version for MW that is fused.

Wiz suits have a full floating chest piece, which is still different from full canvass.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

tocqueville said:


> True. And by that logic, the only way for those of us with tight budgets should ever buy a suit is by saving up and jumping on a once or twice-a-year sale at Brooks, or putting a lot of effort into scoring that marked down HSM GT or RLPL....this approach has done me some good: I scored my only 1818 that way, and I picked up my HF blazer on Ebay for $45. But then those TM Lewin catalogues come my way, and I ask myself, could that suit marked down to $350 be that bad?


But it isn't once or twice a year. BB offers 25% off or better about 6 or 7 times a year.

The only difference between a $300 suit and a $500 suit is the name on the inside of the coat. There can be huge differences between a $500 suit and an $800 or $900 suit a la Jack Victor, BB 1818, Peter Millar, HSM etc. Save your money, wait for 25% off, and buy the superior product.


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

nolan50410 said:


> The Jack Victor suits that are half canvassed sell for $795 and up. They make a cheaper version for MW that is fused.
> 
> Wiz suits have a full floating chest piece, which is still different from full canvass.


I know we said we aren't doing the discout thing, but the JV suits at sierratradingpost are under $499, and are the same as the ones sold for $700+. And a floating chest piece is still not fused.


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## new shoes (Sep 2, 2011)

Brooks Suiting Essentials is half-canvassed. The old BrooksEase line that moved to the outlets is also half-canvassed. I think both are good values for young professionals starting out. Suiting essentials can be bought on sale for around $400 a suit.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

new shoes said:


> Brooks Suiting Essentials is half-canvassed. The old BrooksEase line that moved to the outlets is also half-canvassed. I think both are good values for young professionals starting out. Suiting essentials can be bought on sale for around $400 a suit.


At 2 suits for $899, you can get those suiting essentials for $337 a piece if you get 2 during a 25% off sale. That's pretty hard to beat.


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

That is a good deal. Any idea what those go down to on Dec. 26?


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## new shoes (Sep 2, 2011)

CAG said:


> That is a good deal. Any idea what those go down to on Dec. 26?


Brooks probably won't have the buy 2 discount, so you're probably looking at a 25% discount on a $600 suit with an additional 15% off the morning of the 26th. So, at $382, it'll be a little more expensive than buying two during a normal 25% off sale.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Can anyone compare the STP Jack Victors with brooks suiting essentials or the wizard?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

tocqueville said:


> Can anyone compare the STP Jack Victors with brooks suiting essentials or the wizard?


I know there are some here who love the wiz, and I don't want to start an argument with wiz lovers. Stillthe maxim about something that seems too good to be true has yet to be repealed. I came across this thread about the wiz on Styleforum. The comments of Tony the Tailor, (a real tailor who knows these suits) are especially worth considering. Some of the most telling comments are further along in the thread so read to the end.

https://www.styleforum.net/t/193862/b...suit-review/60


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Baroni and Jack Victor will both be fuller cut and have more shoulder padding than Brooks SE. I actually didn't know until today that the SE was the Regent cut. I used to buy the Brookease right out of college and they were the Madison, which always turned me off later on down the line.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

nolan50410 said:


> Baroni and Jack Victor will both be fuller cut and have more shoulder padding than Brooks SE. I actually didn't know until today that the SE was the Regent cut. I used to buy the Brookease right out of college and they were the Madison, which always turned me off later on down the line.


That's very helpful. I like the sound of the SE more and more. I own a Madison 1818 and find it too full, so I was thinking that a Regent might be the way for me to go.

The JV intrigues me as well simply for the price on STP. I'd love to know how JV compares to the Brooks SE with respect to fabric, construction, etc.

I own a bunch of Banana suits I bought at an outlet when I did not know any better, so I know what crap suits are like. I once bought a Hickey LTD suit at the Rack and returned it after concluding that it was nothing special and did not have a nice fabric. I felt misled by HF and the Rack for tricking me into thinking I was getting a deal (ie. Wow, a HF for only $350!") that really wasn't.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

> I'd certainly welcome any suggestions on how to grab RL Purple label for 1/3 retail. I check Last Call and Off Fifth regularly, but so far no luck in finding Purple Label suits or sport coats.


I check Nordstrom Rack every now and again and have come across some great deals. I got my Hickey Freeman suit (fully canvassed) for $500 there. I also came across a nice looking Canali suit in my size which is rare, unfortunately, the shoulder pads in the suit jacket looked messed up and I didn't want to spend $800.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

tocqueville said:


> That's very helpful. I like the sound of the SE more and more. I own a Madison 1818 and find it too full, so I was thinking that a Regent might be the way for me to go.
> 
> The JV intrigues me as well simply for the price on STP. I'd love to know how JV compares to the Brooks SE with respect to fabric, construction, etc.
> 
> I own a bunch of Banana suits I bought at an outlet when I did not know any better, so I know what crap suits are like. I once bought a Hickey LTD suit at the Rack and returned it after concluding that it was nothing special and did not have a nice fabric. I felt misled by HF and the Rack for tricking me into thinking I was getting a deal (ie. Wow, a HF for only $350!") that really wasn't.


Jack Victor makes a nice suit for the money. It's a true half canvas garment and the fabrics can be decent to suprisingly good. The model that makes it to most stores tends to have too big of a shoulder for my tastes. They have other models with softer shoulders that they use for seasonal sportcoats and such. Fabric and construction will be similar to BB SE. Fit and overall aesthetic (for a normal to thin person) will favor the BB SE.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

tocqueville said:


> I want to rule out Target, Walmart, etc. since I doubt any of us would go there for a suit. Or would we?


Wal*Mart George Suit Separates
Jacket: $32 (was $40)
Slacks: $13 (was $19)
Country of Origin: Imported
Fabric: Unknown...possibly 100% polyester
Online Reviews (66): ****1/2
Percentage of customers who would recommend it to a friend: *97%
*Typical Review: "My fiance opted to buy a suit for our wedding, rather than renting a tuxedo, to curb cost. We got everything that we needed from Walmart.com except the tie and vest (for that more formal, tuxedo-like look) and at fantastic prices!"

***

Would I buy it? Probably not....strike that, definitely not. In a pinch, if I had to, could I make it work? You're darned right I could.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks SHP, what with the withering comments about those and JCP, I've been feeling a little ashamed about looking at the jackets on the thread about the JCP tweed jackets on sale.

:thumbs-up:


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

tocqueville said:


> Ok, ok. Good points, all.
> 
> So let's lower the price point to $499, which eliminates a lot of the "high-end stuff on deep discount" possibilities.
> 
> ...


S. Cohen


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Dizzy99 said:


> This is a good thread. Would anyone be willing to take a shot at actually ranking them?
> 
> For example, I can go to the outlets and take down the $500-600 HF, Zegna suits OTR. The problem is they are 40/34 and I actually need a 40/32. Would something like from say TM Lewin or CT which allows off their website to basically get suit separates be better than the $500 OTR suits from Zegna or HF at the outlet?
> 
> My issue is I'd like a sleek, modern suit. All of my suits are 1 pleat, 3 button. They fit nicely but at 5'10" 160 I'd prefer the 40/32 flat front type of look. TM Lewin has a sale right now, I know a lot of people are lukewarm on it but for a workman suit at this point and the sale off their site, might be a decent buy.


I bought a T.M. Lewin suit a couple of years ago. It fit well and looked nice. The cloth had a nice hand too. However, it only lasted about 14 months of hard wear (one or two times a week).


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

CAG said:


> Jack Victor is half canvased, and I think the Wiz's are full(?).


I also forgot about the Dutch company Suit Supply, which is now open in America. There's also J. Crew and Banana Republic, both of which have received decent reviews on here considering what they are.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> The Jack Victor suits that are half canvassed sell for $795 and up. They make a cheaper version for MW that is fused.
> 
> Wiz suits have a full floating chest piece, which is still different from full canvass.


All of the Jack Victor suits at Sierra Trading Post that I have ever seen are half-canvassed and generally under $400.

Corbin is also an option too.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

zzdocxx said:


> Thanks SHP, what with the withering comments about those and JCP, I've been feeling a little ashamed about looking at the jackets on the thread about the JCP tweed jackets on sale.
> 
> :thumbs-up:


If I may: As long as you're not hurting anyone, don't ever let a stranger make you feel ashamed about anything you do. Live your life. Meet it proud. I think I'm channelling Henry David Thoreau, but you get the idea.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> Baroni and Jack Victor will both be fuller cut and have more shoulder padding than Brooks SE. I actually didn't know until today that the SE was the Regent cut. I used to buy the Brookease right out of college and they were the Madison, which always turned me off later on down the line.


I'd consider S. Cohen, especially the new custom cuts option. While fused, you can get a made-to-measure suit for a very affordable price.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> Fabric and construction will be similar to BB SE.


That's probably because Jack Victor makes quite a bit of clothing for Brooks Brothers, or at least did as of a couple of years ago.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Wal*Mart George Suit Separates
> Jacket: $32 (was $40)
> Slacks: $13 (was $19)
> Country of Origin: Imported
> ...


A couple of years ago, the local Wal-Mart had George suits in a pinstripe navy blue that was 100 percent wool. It look fairly identical to the Chaps suits that you can find at Kohls.

Presuming the Wal-Mart suit is still 100% wool, it shows you how much mark-up some places put on imported suits. (Note the photograph on the website shows a jacket with kissing cuff buttons.)


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

hockeyinsider said:


> I'd consider S. Cohen, especially the new custom cuts option. While fused, you can get a made-to-measure suit for a very affordable price.


I know S Cohen has a made to order program as I have used it in the recent part. Are you sure they have added a made to measure program?


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I just donated a Cohen suit to Goodwill. One of the more expensive casualties due to 40+ pounds of weight loss. I never liked the suit in the first place. Too much shoulder and an odd fit across the upper back. 

Jack Victor used to make some of the 1818 suits for BB. The suiting essentials are now made in a BB owned Thailand factory. 1818 and now Golden Fleece are made by Southwick.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> I just donated a Cohen suit to Goodwill. One of the more expensive casualties due to 40+ pounds of weight loss. I never liked the suit in the first place. Too much shoulder and an odd fit across the upper back.
> 
> Jack Victor used to make some of the 1818 suits for BB. The suiting essentials are now made in a BB owned Thailand factory. 1818 and now Golden Fleece are made by Southwick.


Most of the S. Cohen models now have natural shoulders.


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## TheBarbaron (Oct 8, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> Ok, ok. Good points, all.
> 
> So let's lower the price point to $499, which eliminates a lot of the "high-end stuff on deep discount" possibilities.
> 
> ...


Alrighty - I'll take a crack at this, since suits that come in around this price range are how I earn my daily bread. I'll include a couple more MW sells and that are available at other retailers fairly widely. I'll also exclude Brooks, TM Lewin, C Tyrwhitt, and the Wiz since I have little (Brooks) to no (TML, CT) experience with this.
For JAB/MW/Department/Discount Store brands, I attempted to equate the quality:rice ration to what you could reliably get them for on common sales. At MW, this is roughly 50% of regular retail (BOGO); at JAB, this is roughly 35% of regular retail (BOG2 or 65% off).

1) Jack Victor - true, the shoulders are a bit large. But mostly half-canvassed, made in Canada, decent weight and texture wool, and reliably attractive patterns and colors. (To an above poster, TMW has stopped carrying the JVictor fused models.) Also some variety in cut: some side vented, flat-front, slimmer fitting models, and many more traditional fits.

2) Hart, Schaffner, and Marx (not Gold Trumpeter) - Made in the US, half-canvassed, with a variety of some stolid, some magnificent, and some hideous patterns and colors. Only a few flat-fronts, and a very roomy fit make them ideal for some men, but routinely useless to others. Excellent (OTR) quality, none the less.

3) Jhane Barnes - some half-canvassed, some fully-canvassed, though made abroad to reduce costs. Soft and fine wools (though at 140s, the argument could be made that they're too fine). Not much variety on patterns or fits.

TIE: 4) JAB Signature Gold and Pronto Uomo Signature (MW) - both fairly nice house brand suits. PU Sig is 120s-130s, half-canvassed, and made in Italy, sometimes with Zegna mill fabrics. Attractive colors/patterns, moderately slim fit, no variety of fit or cut whatsoever. JAB Sig Gold is a slightly coarser wool, but well-constructed for the price; though the fit is on the fuller end, usually there is no quarrel with the classic sensibilities.

5) Joseph Abboud USA

6) JAB Signature

7) Tallia - included because of it's ridiculously good fit, if you're in the very slim suit crowd. More fashion-forward, and the material integrity has not always been ideal, but some drop-dead stunning looks and fits for certain men, and they feel fantastic. Half-canvassed (mostly), but with points deducted for a few of their suits having up to 5% synthetic materials.

8)JNY/CK/RLGL/Joseph Abboud/Tommy Hilfiger (Peerless Clothing, etc) - basic "designer" fare. Reasonably decent fabrics, a huge variety of cuts, fits, colors, and patterns. Construction is always in the third world, and often lacks the attention to detail of higher-ranked contenders. If purchased at sale price, reasonable value for the money; if purchased for designer name at retail, a scam to say the least.

9) Lands End - some good, some bad. They mainly sank to number 9 based on the proportion of suits (and blazers, and vests) that I see with rayon, acetate, polyester, etc, included at some significant proportion. For their better materials, I would promote them to 7 or 8.

10) JAB Exec - not great by any stretch, but a functional fused suit, in reliable and reasonably diverse looks. At $100-200 on sale, a good way to fill out a wardrobe, or meet a specific need.

TIE 11) Alfani (Macy's) and Wilke-Rodriguez (MW) - Alfani has a slight edge in some nice-looking suits (for a younger crowd). Both have grainy, poorly-woven wool, though at least they're usually wool. As for construction and longevity - every expense spared.

TIE 12) Stafford (JCPenny) AND Merona (Target) - Stafford is JCP's basic line of wool or poly/wool suit separates. They are bad, but the wool on mine from high school hasn't completely degraded, and since you can get them for under $100 from time to time, it's hard to complain. While most Merona suits are polyester now, they rate equal mention since they mainly do some nice, basic looks (charcoal, charcoal pinstripe), and there were/are some available that are 100% wool, don't fit too horribly, and are quite economical.

13)George (Wal-Mart) - Cheap as sin, but cheap as sin. You're not getting much, but then, you're not paying much. I wouldn't voluntarily wear George to..anywhere, really, but I will confess to having used some of their pants (Xmas from an...overly frugal parent) in the theater - say if a blood pack was scheduled to explode nearby, or if I was required to crawl on my knees for an act and a half.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

TheBarbaron said:


> TIE 12) Stafford (JCPenny) AND Merona (Target) - Stafford is JCP's basic line of wool or poly/wool suit separates. They are bad, but the wool on mine from high school hasn't completely degraded, and since you can get them for under $100 from time to time, it's hard to complain. While most Merona suits are polyester now, they rate equal mention since they mainly do some nice, basic looks (charcoal, charcoal pinstripe), and there were/are some available that are 100% wool, don't fit too horribly, and are quite economical.


Stafford has gone down hill in the last four of five years. Until 2007 or early 2008, J.C. Penney had a line called Stafford Executive. These suits were very nice and were generally around $400, if not more.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

add Tom James and H. FreemN


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I think any listing should be broke up by:

-- Internet and catalogue merchants.
-- Traditional brick-and-mortar shops. 
-- Department stores.


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## dparm (Nov 18, 2008)

Lands End definitely deserves to be on the list but I am not 100% certain I'd place it that high. For the money the fit and attention to detail is good, but not amazing. It is a solid buy considering the coupons floating around. My only real complaint about them is that the pants are not the greatest, but again...for what I paid I am content.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

hockeyinsider said:


> I think any listing should be broke up by:
> 
> -- Internet and catalogue merchants.
> -- Traditional brick-and-mortar shops.
> -- Department stores.


For me, the different lines from each brand is dizzying. Ie. figuring out the quality/features of each. That'd be another interesting list but probably too complicated.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

One thing I've already gotten out of this thread is that I need to start taking Jack Victor seriously. Why? It's clearly THE value champ here, given a) the positive comments about it on this forum and b) the frequency with which STP issues 30-40% off deal fliers, which seems to be about every other week, at least. Yesterday STP was listing JV suits for $270.

There's another factor that's hard to quantify, which is styling and overall looks. Those Banana suits I bought--to be fair, they're Banana _Outlet_ suits--are crap because of the fabric and construction, but I'd argue that they look better than most cheap suits simply because of the fit and the modern, relatively slim cut, compared to the overly ample, boxy cuts one often finds with, say, the low end JAB line.

Also--and I think this is really important--I am aware of how cheap my Banana suits are because I wear them, meaning that I feel the fabric and notice the little details that remind me I'm not wearing my 1818. However, very few people are capable of perceiving such things in suits they see other people wearing. In other words, chances are that if one is wearing a cheap suit--so long as it fits well and one has the other details down (ie polished shoes, shirts that fit, appropriate tie, etc.)--one will look good. One question to be asked is how far one can take this experiment: at what point is a suit too crappy to work?

Even there it's debatable: In Africa I've met people who wear obviously cheap suits and yet nonetheless look good, in this sense that they communicate good grooming, dignity, self-respect, etc. Maybe that's something that's been lost in the US? 60 years ago it would have been more common for folks who could only afford that Walmart George suit to wear such suits...which would "represent" better than not wearing any suit. Or would it? But I digress.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

hockeyinsider said:


> I also forgot about the Dutch company Suit Supply, which is now open in America. There's also J. Crew and Banana Republic, both of which have received decent reviews on here considering what they are.


I've read that Suit Supply suits are great, but are made with working cuff buttons, which rules them out for many of us.

I have a strong bias against J. Crew and Banana, which I think look good but are generally not worth the money except when purchased at the steepest discounts. The stuff is not made to last.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

hockeyinsider said:


> I bought a T.M. Lewin suit a couple of years ago. It fit well and looked nice. The cloth had a nice hand too. However, it only lasted about 14 months of hard wear (one or two times a week).


This has been my experience with TM Lewin shirts. They look good and fit well, but they're not holding up well, not nearly as well as my Brooks 364 shirts.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

tocqueville said:


> Even there it's debatable: In Africa I've met people who wear obviously cheap suits and yet nonetheless look good, in this sense that they communicate good grooming, dignity, self-respect, etc. Maybe that's something that's been lost in the US? 60 years ago it would have been more common for folks who could only afford that Walmart George suit to wear such suits...which would "represent" better than not wearing any suit. Or would it? But I digress.


Nice.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

The STP suits seem somewhat limited in selection -- some models didn't seem to be available in my size, 48L. (Eg. the blue plaid which I liked.) Maybe that's just temporary though.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

So far the only consensus we seem to have reached is Brooks SE > STP jack victor > tm lewin, LE, and various dept store lines like Alfani. Where do we put the various JAB lines? Is the Wiz's Danielle = or < JV? Can anyone speak to Hardwick suits?


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Andy can, and has spoken to Hardwick. (at least a sport coat) On Wed. the 23rd I'll be able to speak to a Hardwick suit and two sport coats.


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## Dizzy99 (Sep 17, 2010)

Tocqueville - what about OTR suits from outlets for Hickey Freeman, Zegna, and Canali. I have seen Isaia suits for $700 at off 5th and last call at neiman marcus for example. I personally think the main thing is a blend of fit + quality as a previous poster said. He was saying his BR suits are garbage but they fit well and that is what matters. Also if one is in the 500-1000 range, why not rank the online MTM places? i have never used one but I think the quality/fit must be pretty darn good for the price.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

tocqueville said:


> This has been my experience with TM Lewin shirts. They look good and fit well, but they're not holding up well, not nearly as well as my Brooks 364 shirts.


I have T.M. Lewin shirts that I have worn once a week for three years.


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## INTJ (Apr 22, 2010)

Before I lost a bunch of weight, almost all my suits and sport coats were Hardwick, with the exception of 3 MTM suits I had made in Bangkok.

I'd put them above George, Lands End, etc., comparable to JAB Exec. There's a big difference between the fabric quality of the BB 1818 Blazer I purchased this weekend and my old Hardwick Blazer, but since the former cost $500 dollars, and the later less than $200, that's understandable. Still, most of their line was 100% wool, and they have a nice separates program and stock extended sizes (one of the main reasons I used them at the time). 

Tailors, etc. can deal directly with Hardwick, allowing them to purchase products directly at wholesale prices. This is a nice program since it gives the small shop owner the ability to direct order hard to find sizes, additional trousers, etc.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

INTJ said:


> Before I lost a bunch of weight, almost all my suits and sport coats were Hardwick, with the exception of 3 MTM suits I had made in Bangkok.
> 
> I'd put them above George, Lands End, etc., comparable to JAB Exec. There's a big difference between the fabric quality of the BB 1818 Blazer I purchased this weekend and my old Hardwick Blazer, but since the former cost $500 dollars, and the later less than $200, that's understandable. Still, most of their line was 100% wool, and they have a nice separates program and stock extended sizes (one of the main reasons I used them at the time).
> 
> Tailors, etc. can deal directly with Hardwick, allowing them to purchase products directly at wholesale prices. This is a nice program since it gives the small shop owner the ability to direct order hard to find sizes, additional trousers, etc.


I just read through the threads about Hardwick. It seems that the consensus matches these observations: a decent suit that comes below JV and above most of the rest of the fused models.

So Brooks SE > Jack Victor > Daniele? > Hardwick > LE and various dept. store models.

There are probably some JAB lines that are up there competing with the JV and Daniele.

I realize that the best way to do this would be to try to build a matrix that would take into account different qualities: fabric, construction, "American-style" vs. more of a tailored fit, half-canvas v. fused, durability, street price. It's possible, for example, that the Hardwick is better made than a Banana suit, but for some of us, the Banana might look better in that it's more "tailored" and modern looking. Others might have the opposite view.

I'd love to do something like "ljokerl" does on the Headfi forum for headphones. (https://www.head-fi.org/t/433318/sh...phones-reviewed-denon-ah-d1100-added-10-30-11) He breaks everything down by street price and then within each breaks down according to specific categories. If you scroll down, you can find a matrix that gives an overall rating but also enables one to look for particular characteristics, since not everyone weights things the same way. If only I had the time...

But for now, back to my real job!


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I like that idea.

:thumbs-up:

Edit: I'd be interested in lists of the different lines that each brand has, and their features/quality, it is so confusing!

:drunken_smilie:


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

tocqueville said:


> I realize that the best way to do this would be to try to build a matrix that would take into account different qualities: fabric, construction, "American-style" vs. more of a tailored fit, half-canvas v. fused, durability, street price. It's possible, for example, that the Hardwick is better made than a Banana suit, but for some of us, the Banana might look better in that it's more "tailored" and modern looking. Others might have the opposite view.


Any such ranking or flowchart should for the most part abstain on the style and manner of the suit's cut, as that would be a substantial variable. Rather it should focus on construction quality, price and the like.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Well maybe the cuts/styles/etc. could be in a comments column. Yeah that'd be cool if it was in a sortable spreadsheet, so fat guys like me could narrow it down to the fuller cuts, so to speak.

:icon_viking:


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## kennyramone (Sep 28, 2009)

My two cents:

I've found the Joseph Abboud (USA made) to be a decent pick and I have seen them around for 3/400. I have two Victor pieces (Nordstrom co-branded) and find them good quality but shoulder heavy. Was at Woodbuy Common in NY and the Barney's store was full of their house branded suits (made by Victor, mostly with Loro Piana wool) and they seemed to be a bit better on the shoulders (and 3/400 on sale).

I haven't appreciated any JAB lines, and was pretty disappointed in the Sig Gold when I saw them recently in person.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

nolan50410 said:


> Jack Victor makes a nice suit for the money. It's a true half canvas garment and the fabrics can be decent to suprisingly good. The model that makes it to most stores tends to have too big of a shoulder for my tastes. They have other models with softer shoulders that they use for seasonal sportcoats and such. Fabric and construction will be similar to BB SE. Fit and overall aesthetic (for a normal to thin person) will favor the BB SE.


Full line J.V. suits are a nice value. The L and V bodies are a little more traditional while the D and M bodies are modern, soft construction that is slimmer and more fitted.

I'd say a BB SE is more akin to an S. Cohen than a full line J.V.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

I have handled many BB SE suits and it is my opinion that they are underappreciated. Really some nice solid suits at a great price. 

Concerning the BB 1818 suits, consider the upgraded Saxxon wool suits (adds $200 IIRC) for incredible bang for the buck. The ultrafine herringbone Saxxon in either Navy or Charcoal makes an interesting suit. An 1818 suit can have better fabric than a Golden Fleece suit. 

All of these can be had new for less than $500, but not by ordering from BB.


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## tower10 (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm not sure that anybody has mentioned Banana Republic. I might get lambasted for mentioning them ha ha....but I own a navy suit from there that's pretty solid. The fit and fabric is surprisingly nice, and it's got a nice trim fit. I'd put it against the Hart Schaffner suit I own, which cost about 300 more than the Banana suit. 

Also, has anyone had any experience with SuitSupply?


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## raneyday (Nov 16, 2011)

New member, first post. 

I think even at the $499 mark you have to include the HSM GT suits. I now own seven of them and have yet to pay more than $250 for one. They wear very well, hold their shape through several (misguided) cleanings, and always garner compliments. Every December Dillards runs a half off sale that turns into a half-of-half by the end of the month.

I love the tips I'm picking up on this site! I'm looking to go up one level and still score some discounts (Yes! I can afford BB).

And good shirts. I need lots and lots of good shirts. Lots. 

--David


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## jbierce (Dec 20, 2008)

This is a great thread; really useful to me since I'm a poor college student currently looking for a suit for campus interviews next semester.

What are your opinions on the best basic charcoal suit I could buy sub-$350? 

I was going to go with M. Valentino from the Wiz, but maybe I should wait until after Christmas? Help please! Thanks :icon_smile:


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## Mississippi (Nov 10, 2009)

You can get not-so-boxy Jack Victor. I think the line starts with "P" or something. I really do enjoy this company. 
Latham Thomas MTM. $600+
HSM can be found at the Dillards annual half off sales. Suites for $500-$600. 
If you are around suit high-flyers, ask around. Men like custom suits, you might be able to find some local guys who do MTM. We have a guy in our area who does house visits, no overhead so his suits are cheaper. Completely MTM, great fabric selection $700+. Probably would be $1200 anywhere with overhead. 
Brooks is overpriced. JPress is okay if you're self conscious about your mid-section. I'm pretty sure some of their less expensive suits are HSM anyways.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

jbierce said:


> This is a great thread; really useful to me since I'm a poor college student currently looking for a suit for campus interviews next semester.
> 
> What are your opinions on the best basic charcoal suit I could buy sub-$350?
> 
> I was going to go with M. Valentino from the Wiz, but maybe I should wait until after Christmas? Help please! Thanks :icon_smile:


Check out Jack Victor. You may even be able to get an S. Cohen made-to-measure for $350 to $400.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

While out on Black Friday, I stopped in Club Monaco. I hadn't been in there in quite a while and was pleasantly surprised. Not only were several items made in America, but the quality and tailoring was very nice. They had a really nice soft blazer. I can't remember how much it cost, but it was quite nice. If you're under 40, you may want to stop in this shop.


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## ezgoezit (Oct 28, 2006)

In the past I waited for one of the two semi-annual sales at Nordstroms and bought a Joseph Abboud suit on sale when I needed or wanted a new suit. I don't have a large clothing budget and I have a job where I move around a lot and so I need a suit that doesn't need to be pampered. The Abboud suits seem to fit the bill. Once I bought a nice RLPL from a reputable Ebay seller. There were no problems, the suit came, it was nice, I had it altered without any issues. It was obviously a nice suit, but it seemed to age ge faster than my other suits. I think some of the nicer suits are better suited for boardrooms than managers that walk around and are active all day long.

-
I think it was three years ago, I saw a sale at Brooks Brothers. They were selling two 1818 suits for $1000. I had to try that out. On sale, they were just a little more than I was paying for my other suits when I was buying them on sale as well. I bought four and those suits have serveed me extremely well. They are like night and day compared to other suits I have owned in the past. I also bought two pairs of the Peal & Co. cap toe buchers at 60% off. I haven't seen another sale as good as that one since, but they do come close now and then. I guess for me, it was about finding the right suit that matched my needs. 

Ez


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## jbierce (Dec 20, 2008)

I think it's coming down to The Wizard's M. Valentino vs. S. Cohen made-to-order. I think both are decent options, but do you think that the fact that The Wizs' is half-canvassed and S Cohen is fused should be the deciding factor?

Thanks!


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## Thomas Martin (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't know if they are available outside Europe but the Swiss brand Strellson makes very nice suits with a good price/quality ratio.

https://www.strellson.com/


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Wiz is half-canvassed yet it is also fused.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

jbierce said:


> I think it's coming down to The Wizard's M. Valentino vs. S. Cohen made-to-order. I think both are decent options, but do you think that the fact that The Wizs' is half-canvassed and S Cohen is fused should be the deciding factor?
> 
> Thanks!


While fit is the most important criteria in a suit, fabric is second, and construction is only third. Assuming your tailor can alter both suits to fit you, the deciding factor is fabric. With the Cohen made to order you will see and feel the fabrics at the store or tailor where you place your order. Ask the wiz to send you swatches. (He advertises his as 150s, and others here and at other sites have reported it is thin and easy to wrinkle). Compare fabrics and then choose. Disclosure- I have a MTO from Cohen, looks fine, nothing really special, but for less money than MTM, I was able to get a DB in a fabric that was not available at the time in RTW DBs.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

jbierce said:


> I think it's coming down to The Wizard's M. Valentino vs. S. Cohen made-to-order. I think both are decent options, but do you think that the fact that The Wizs' is half-canvassed and S Cohen is fused should be the deciding factor?
> 
> Thanks!


The deciding factor is always fit. The wiz may be half canvassed but that means it is also half fused. Either way, you are getting a suit held together by fusibles. Unless you can afford full canvas garments, which are harder to find at discounts, then you need to worry about fit and not construction.


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## Mute (Apr 3, 2005)

The Benjamin line of suits from eHaberdasher is better quality than all of the previously listed suits. I'd put them on par with RL Black Label.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

arkirshner said:


> Disclosure- I have a MTO from Cohen, looks fine, nothing really special, but for less money than MTM, I was able to get a DB in a fabric that was not available at the time in RTW DBs.


AR I don't quite get the difference in MTM and MTO. Is MTO where you just tell them what standard size and fabric to make the suit? (Eg. 48L in Samuelsohn MTM 2.(

:icon_study:


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Mute said:


> The Benjamin line of suits from eHaberdasher is better quality than all of the previously listed suits. I'd put them on par with RL Black Label.


That's interesting, I have vaguely hear of them before. But I see they say these suits are full canvassed, for $495. Is that what you were referring to in terms of the quality being better than the others mentioned?

I wonder if they are cut in sizes that are trim, full, or ? ? ?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

zzdocxx said:


> AR I don't quite get the difference in MTM and MTO. Is MTO where you just tell them what standard size and fabric to make the suit? (Eg. 48L in Samuelsohn MTM 2.(
> 
> :icon_study:


In Made to Measure, the customer selects the fabric, and the style,( example- DB jacket, forward pleat pants ) the customer's measurement's are taken, the maker's stock jacket pattern closest to the customer's measurements is selected (same for pants), the pattern is altered to fit the customer's actual measurements (simple example-the length of the sleeve pattern is shortened or lengthened to the customer's actual sleeve length), the jacket and pants are cut from the altered pattern, the garment is sewn and delivered. If done properly the garment will need no, or very minor alterations.

In Made to Order, the customer selects the fabric and the style (example, single breasted peak lapel, athletic cut), the customer's measurements are taken, the maker's stock jacket and stock pants patterns are selected (eg. 41 L jacket, 34 R pants) but not altered, the fabric is cut,the garment is sewn and delivered. The garment will then need to be altered much the same as a ready to wear garment.

Essentially the difference is that a made to measure garment is altered before the fabric is cut, while a made to order garment is altered after it is sewn. Made to order is most practical if you do not require extensive alterations after purchasing ready to wear garments. It is also a way to get what are in effect separates eg. 40 jacket, 31 pants in fabrics not included in a standard separates line. Example, while solid and striped navy and grey suits are often available as separates, a blue glenplaid check with red overplaid is not. If you need separates, made to order jacket and pants in a blue glenplaid/red overplaid will allow you to get a suit that otherwise would not be available to you. MTO will also allow you to get a matching vest that may not be available through ready to wear.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Mute said:


> The Benjamin line of suits from eHaberdasher is better quality than all of the previously listed suits. I'd put them on par with RL Black Label.


If I recall correctly, the Benjamin line doesn't come in anything other a regular fit.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> In Made to Measure, the customer selects the fabric, and the style,( example- DB jacket, forward pleat pants ) the customer's measurement's are taken, the maker's stock jacket pattern closest to the customer's measurements is selected (same for pants), the pattern is altered to fit the customer's actual measurements (simple example-the length of the sleeve pattern is shortened or lengthened to the customer's actual sleeve length), the jacket and pants are cut from the altered pattern, the garment is sewn and delivered. If done properly the garment will need no, or very minor alterations.
> 
> In Made to Order, the customer selects the fabric and the style (example, single breasted peak lapel, athletic cut), the customer's measurements are taken, the maker's stock jacket and stock pants patterns are selected (eg. 41 L jacket, 34 R pants) but not altered, the fabric is cut,the garment is sewn and delivered. The garment will then need to be altered much the same as a ready to wear garment.
> 
> Essentially the difference is that a made to measure garment is altered before the fabric is cut, while a made to order garment is altered after it is sewn. Made to order is most practical if you do not require extensive alterations after purchasing ready to wear garments. It is also a way to get what are in effect separates eg. 40 jacket, 31 pants in fabrics not included in a standard separates line. Example, while solid and striped navy and grey suits are often available as separates, a blue glenplaid check with red overplaid is not. If you need separates, made to order jacket and pants in a blue glenplaid/red overplaid will allow you to get a suit that otherwise would not be available to you. MTO will also allow you to get a matching vest that may not be available through ready to wear.


I could be mistaken, but I believe S. Cohen's custom cuts program is more made-to-measure than special order ready-to-wear or in your words "made-to-order."


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## Mute (Apr 3, 2005)

hockeyinsider said:


> If I recall correctly, the Benjamin line doesn't come in anything other a regular fit.


No. They have shorts and longs. As for quality, beyond the full canvassing, the stitching and construction of the suit are very well executed. The canvas they use is nice a supple without being limp. Like I said before, I've only seen this kind of quality in much more expensive clothes (at least at retail prices).


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

hockeyinsider said:


> I could be mistaken, but I believe S. Cohen's custom cuts program is more made-to-measure than special order ready-to-wear or in your words "made-to-order."


Let us not split hairs, it is somewhere in the middle between MTO and MTM as the terms are commonly used. While there are options available that are not ordinarily found in most made to order programs, it is not fully made to measure either. The Cohen web site put up a review with the following:

"One thing to keep in mind if purchasing from S. Cohen is the company's new Custom Cuts program. 
This is essentially halfway between what-you-see-is-what-you-get and bespoke. While not made-to-measure 
in the full sense of the word - made-to-order is probably better - it allows one to order a customized suit. (A 
bespoke suit on the other hand involves a pattern created from scratch based on the customer's measurements.) 
Options include hundreds of cloths and dozens of linings and buttons. It also allows one to select options such 
as notch or peak lapels, pickstitching, hacking pockets, a ticket pocket, surgeon's cuffs and natural shoulders.
I did note that some of these options were not available when other choices were selected. I could order a twobutton jacket with natural shoulders, side vents, and a ticket pocket, however, I could not order hacking pockets 
with a natural shoulder. Custom Cuts also did not allow me to select a three-two roll, which S. Cohen makes for 
J. Press. This classic choice involves the jacket lapels rolled past the top button rendering it functionless and in 
essence creating a two-button jacket."

In ready to wear jackets I need the sleeves shortened and because of my posture, I need the collar lowered. In my S Cohen suit from this program, while the sleeves (and pant legs) did not require any alteration, the collar did. In none of my made to measure suits, because the pattern was altered before cutting, did the collar need adjustment.

IMO, because alterations such as adjusting the collar maybe necessary, while one might call the program MTM minus, it would be more accurate to call the program MTO Plus.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> Let us not split hairs, it is somewhere in the middle between MTO and MTM as the terms are commonly used. While there are options available that are not ordinarily found in most made to order programs, it is not fully made to measure either. The Cohen web site put up a review with the following:
> 
> "One thing to keep in mind if purchasing from S. Cohen is the company's new Custom Cuts program.
> This is essentially halfway between what-you-see-is-what-you-get and bespoke. While not made-to-measure
> ...


Do you have a link to the website review?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

hockeyinsider said:


> Do you have a link to the website review?


The rest of the review is also interesting.

Regards,

Alan


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I've had a look at the Benjamin website, it is pretty impressive.

What I meant about regular fit, is that it is not cut really trim and tight for someone who is slender.

PS. Nice review on S. Cohen, thanks!


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Here's a review of SuitSupply.
https://putthison.com/post/14122203816/we-got-it-for-free-suitsupply-suit-in-my-short

This gist is that this is a great $500 suit, although one of the catches, for me at least, is that it has working cuff buttons. That rules it out as an option for me.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

The suit supply website says you can return for refund or exchange (with tags intact) if you are not satisfied.

So I am thinking you could find out if the arms fit you or not. Or do no OTR suit arms fit you?

Also, I notice they say the suits are half-canvassed, but I have noticed that some of those are also fused.

Having said that, they seem to have quite a snazzy selection whereas the fully canvassed Benjamins at ehaberdasher seem to me mostly offered in the basics.

Disclaimer: I really have no idea what I am talking about, just throwing out some ideas here.

:redface:


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