# Bi-swing half-belted suit jackets



## fleetfoot (Jan 18, 2006)

Recently saw a guy wearing a suit with a bi-swing half-belt jacket. Originally I saw it from the front and it caught my eye because I liked the fabric and pattern (steel grey with a light chalk plaid), but when I saw the back I did a double take, as it was a half-belted, vented jacket with pleats. I thought it looked great. 

I hear that such belted-back style suits may be gaining popularity, though I haven't seen this before and I realize it won't work for everyone since it does taper the jacket to the waist and has a leaner cut.

I really did like the look, and was wondering if any of you own such suits or have any thoughts/opinions on them. For example, are they appropriate as main business attire, or probably just certain occasions? I know that you could have a custom suit made this way, but I cannot recall seeing anything on the RTW rack like this.


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## alaric (May 23, 2005)

I think this is called a "Half Norfolk Jacket." The full on Norfolk, of course, has a belt that goes fully around and buckles in front.

I have two of the half Norfolks jackets and like them quite a lot. I don't have any suits in this style, though.

alaric

"Bunter, I shall have to look like a newspaperman." 
"Then, my lord, I would suggest the suit we don't like and the regrettable tie." 
"Perfect!"


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

Sounds like a belt-back with an action back... Half Norfolk from my experience refferes to the english sport suits or jackets... historical it's reffered to as a belt-back suit or jacket in the US.

I hope the style does return. You can see alot more in the suit section of the Fedora Lounge.

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www.thefedoralounge.com


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

I have one green tweed suit jacket with a half belt and action back. It's a great weekend look but very informal. It really reduces the wearability of the jacket during the week, if that's a concern.

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Fortuna elegantes adiuvit.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

My father wore them for skeet and bird shooting.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

I prefer the belt back with pleats on a chalk stripe navy blue three piece suit.

The belt works with any dress jacket as long as it looks to be pinching in the back. Some tailors make the design without the pleats under the belt, though the pleats are a necessity. Most tailors I have run into don't know how to alter the design to ad the pleats without making the rear of the suit ride up... I showed one how.

Very common in US suits in the 20's and 30's casual and dress.


























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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Norfolk Jackets have vertical pleats. Two in front and two in back. I suppose you could get away with no pleats in the back. The pleats don't have to go below the belt and they can start below the yoke. Breast pockets are generally stuck into the pleat virtically. Though if you have a yoke one could be put there, too. I belive they all have full belts, either under or on top of the pleats. They can have bi-swings, too. Pleats are sewn in and then generally the sides are cut, but some cut the pleats independently and sew them on, instead. 

Belts and bi-swings don't make it into a Norfolk. Belts and bi-swings will probably show up as suits, etc.- as suits become more popular again. Anyway, in another year or two it is time for them to come back into style (fashion) again. I'm surprised that some of you who buy tailored jackets haven't had any made- and wear them.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

I own several half Norfolks. Most are odd jackets of heavy tweed, but I do have 3 suits made up with half Norfolk coats. I rarely wear the entire suit, but have found all 3 pieces invaluable (coat, vest, trousers). If you are a fan of old movies you will very often see country suits made up with a norfolk coat, with a vest. 

RL does a great true Norfolk with the belt that goes all the way around. I have been contemplating getting one each fall for 3 years now at the MTM event, but always opt for a half Norfolk instead.


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## NukeMeSlowly (Jul 28, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mattdeckard_
> 
> I prefer the belt back with pleats on a chalk stripe navy blue three piece suit.
> 
> ...


Fantastic photos. I am drooling over the DB. Thanks for posting them.

____________________________________

"Hey, we all can't live near K-Mart."


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## alaric (May 23, 2005)

Matt Deckard:

Thanks for the correction. The jackets I have do have the belted back, but they have a large vertical pleat almost right next to the sleeve and the pleat reaches down all the way to the belt, rather than the four small pleats on your jacket.

So are mine a variant or another beast entirely? 

Alas, no pictures to post.

alaric

"Bunter, I shall have to look like a newspaperman." 
"Then, my lord, I would suggest the suit we don't like and the regrettable tie." 
"Perfect!"


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

There are many different variations. with the pleats down from the shoulder, or a deep center inverted pleat, it creates an action back.










Check out this thread.
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=6364

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## alaric (May 23, 2005)

Matt,

Thanks for the info and link. My jackets are (almost exactly) the A60.

I think I need to find a brilliant tailor that will take pity on my impecuniousness. I would love to have some of those suits made up.

alaric

"Bunter, I shall have to look like a newspaperman." 
"Then, my lord, I would suggest the suit we don't like and the regrettable tie." 
"Perfect!"


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

Alaric - RL MTM has 3 Norfolk models to chose from: A full Norfolk, and 2 half Norfolks.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by alaric_
> 
> Matt,
> 
> ...


Do you have any photos?

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## steedappeal (May 10, 2004)

Fantastic information; many thanks for the pictures and technical detail.

My J. Press colleagues and I were happy to have several half Norfolks to sell (in very limited quantities).


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

Anyone else wear belted backs?


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

I had a Bi-Swinging girlfriend. That was really wild! :icon_smile_big:


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> I had a Bi-Swinging girlfriend. That was really wild! :icon_smile_big:


I did as well. She was a model and the things she'd drag home.:icon_smile_wink:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

The tweed shooting jacket I bought from Orvis last season appears to be of the bi-swing design...very comfortable, sporty by my standards and, as stated by others, appropriate primarily for weekend wear. I also have two other sportcoats with the bi-swing shoulders but, not the belt across the back. I like the style very much and it is more comfortable than some of the other designs


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## Full Canvas (Feb 16, 2006)

Well, my Minsk wardrobe stays in Minsk and we are back in California now. Hence, no photos of my bi-swing action back jackets are available to post today. 

I have two older jackets with a bi-swing action back. One is a heavy worsted flannel with with a faint windowpane; the other is fourteen ounce (overcoat weight) cashmere herringbone. The bi-swing action back sure gives back the mobility otherwise lost due to multi-layered clothing in the cold Belarusian spring weather.

However, I had them made with a separate martingale rather than the attached (non-functional) belt. The martingale on each jacket has extra buttonholes to cinch the jacket waist.

Here are two vastly different styles of a bi-swing action back:




















_____________________________


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

I have been seeing the style pop up now and again on women's clothing. Though if it's going to be done right on menswear again, companies must make the armholes high enough for it not to counter the benefit of the bi-swing.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> I had a Bi-Swinging girlfriend. That was really wild! :icon_smile_big:


Let's not go there... far too many painful memories


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

As I can see it are these all without vents? Are side vents done with these beltted backs as it seems like a natural combination.(the coats , not the girlfriends)


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## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

They were very popular in the early 1970's. I owned a sport coat and a gray flannel suit in this style. The lapels were a little wider then, but they had fairly high armholes.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

There were little to no vents in the 30's and 40's on double or single breasted jackets.

The vents showed up on the bi-swing jackets in the 70's.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

Anyone have photos of their bi-swing jackets or belted backs?


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## william76 (Aug 11, 2006)

Mattdeckard said:


> There are many different variations. with the pleats down from the shoulder, or a deep center inverted pleat, it creates an action back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this. Do you know where to find more of these type of catalog pics? Sator posts a lot of these type of things though usually from the 1800's. I want to check some out to get ideas for upcoming bespoke pieces.


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

I have a few that need to be scanned.

I'm getting an action back made right now with the center knife pleat, belted back and... well all the style I can fit into one jacket.


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## THORVALD (Jan 30, 2007)

*Pictured Threads*

The suit & jackets shown are VERY nice when coupled with conservative neckwear. Those 40's rayon ties IMO are very distracting on the overall impression & move the overall outfits into a costume/period context!

THORVALD


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

It's not a look for me, but Matt, I'm really impressed with your detailed knowledge! 

Are you a tailor or do you work in the clothing industry?


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

I'm not a tailor, just a clothing aficionado who has taken apart suits from the past to compare them with suits of the present. German English French Italian.. many seem to have fallen to homogeny when it comes to styling nowadays... The italians have some of the best of the best modern I have seen...

Talking to some of the tailors on Savile Row last week has shown me that many still admire what was done in the past. I'm one that thinks if you don't study suits made in the past you tend to have a closed opinion of what is available right now. I did learn from one of the tailors on Savile Row that some of the tailors are disatisfied with the material made today even if it is in the heavier weights or denser weaves. From what I saw and what i was told, even the modern heavyweights don't last as long since the fibers of wool used are much finer do to breeding and never turn out fabrics as hard as they used to be. Whipcords wear out faster and tweeds stretch more... and seeing a whipcord pill up on the tailors back side from a suit he had made recently while he explained how they don't make them like they used to was proof enough. Stripes can be matched depending on the distance apart of the stripes and their widths and the fabric itself. Little stuff. Going to Savile Row opened my eyes to who is making great tailored clothing and to who is just going through the motions putting out baggy chests lumpy shoulders and , well... uninspired clothes that look dry as a cracker when it comes to style. 

I'm not a tailor, though I do know what I like and it usually has to be taught to whoever I want making my clothing. 

I noticed brooks Brothers tried to reintroduce belt back jackets onto the market over the last few years. They had no fit and where their should have been pleats under the belt they placed darts. I really wish some of these companies would take a look at what used to be available when they try to recreate classic clothing. The fit the style... it was available in many cases off the rack in the past.

not a tailor... 

More of a stylist.


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## KCE (Nov 13, 2006)

Check out the back of this suit jacket, it's even on sale (not that I could afford it, on sale or not )

https://www.polo.com/product/index....60788.2289753.1785264&SMR=1&parentPage=family


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## Mattdeckard (Mar 11, 2004)

Looks like someone is coming around when it comes to recreating the classics. I love Double breasted belt backs. I just hope the armholes are done nice and high.


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