# Portuguese flannel?



## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

(1967)









(1989)









(1990)

A part of the look? Kind of reminds me of chambray, in that it started firmly in department store territory, but somehow ended up the darling of L.L. Bean, Lands' End, Patagonia, etc. by the 90s. (Lands' End devoted a catalog essay to it, for instance.) When did the transition happen? The 80s? Who started it? What made (makes?) the Portuguese mills so special?

Perhaps it was an issue of steady erosion? Wool flannel to Viyella to 80/20 to all-cotton and then off to Portugal? (Why Portugal???)









(1978)

American-made(?) Brooksgate cotton flannel was an an alternative to the 80/20 Brooksflannel by the late 70s.









(1983)

L.L. Bean's Scotch Plaid shirts were another early cotton flannel source. (Late 70s? Early 80s?)









(1976)

Woolrich (via Lands' End) suggests that the key to cotton flannel's rising position in the world can be traced back to its similarity to Bean's Chamois Cloth.









(1971)

Bean agrees (sort of), then goes off on the special virtues of Chamois Cloth. Are cotton flannel and Chamois Cloth really one and the same, or is there a difference? I'm a little unclear on this... Current L.L. Bean Chamois Cloth shirts use Portuguese fabric.

Was Portuguese flannel always a good (if under-appreciated) option, or did something happen to change the standard opinion?


----------



## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I still have my red and black shepards check shirt from 1980.


----------



## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

https://www.ramalhoni.com/2011/10/ramalhoni-factory-visit-teviz.html


----------



## DoghouseReilly (Jul 25, 2010)

Good question. LE has a Portuguese flannel this year too.


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

RE flannel v. chamois cloth: is it that cotton flannel is brushed on one side, whereas chamois cloth is brushed on both? My impression is that flannel shirts and pjs have been around longer than chamois cloth, but maybe not. As for the "Portugese" part, I first saw that creep in to the Bean lingo, now it's in Orvis and others. Is it because of a particular mill that Bean started sourcing from (the one seen in C Sharps link)?


----------



## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Why Portugal was answered in the Lands End article you linked to. "Portugal came into the picture as a relatively low-cost, yet geographically accessible, producer. But as the Portuguese mills gained experience, they began to eclipse their former masters. By the early 1950s, they had become the premier producers in the world. Today, Portugal is the only European source for flannel." Even now, I doubt that Portugal's costs are particularly high - as we know, with respect to most goods, almost any western European country has more cache than citing luxirious napped flannel from China or Vietnam.......I suspect Portugal has a nice niche market with expertise and production costs low enough to allow it to protect its market share.

With respect to chamois v/ flannel. I think both fabrics are napped on both sides - at least with Bean, they are. To me, the difference is that chamois starts with a heavier and more tightly woven fabric before it is brushed. Especially with Bean, the Chamois shirts are much thicker/denser than the flannel shirts (I have both). I was going to make a post on LL Bean products that I've known about for decades, but haven't tried until lately and the chamois shirt is one of them. I've owned lots of other makes and didn't buy the Bean version b/c, at the time, I preferred a button down collar and thought them relatively over priced. I'm starting my second winter with several and bought more this year. For whatever reason, the Bean chamois shirts are by far the best I've ever owned - they've kept their nap and have not pilled. One feels like cotton ball it so soft (I did get a red one that shed its nap within 2 washes - Bean replaced w/o problem and the replacement is holding up fine)


----------



## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Epaminondas said:


> Why Portugal was answered in the Lands End article you linked to. "Portugal came into the picture as a relatively low-cost, yet geographically accessible, producer. But as the Portuguese mills gained experience, they began to eclipse their former masters. By the early 1950s, they had become the premier producers in the world. Today, Portugal is the only European source for flannel." Even now, I doubt that Portugal's costs are particularly high - as we know, with respect to most goods, almost any western European country has more cache than citing luxirious napped flannel from China or Vietnam.......I suspect Portugal has a nice niche market with expertise and production costs low enough to allow it to protect its market share.
> 
> With respect to chamois v/ flannel. I think both fabrics are napped on both sides - at least with Bean, they are. To me, the difference is that chamois starts with a heavier and more tightly woven fabric before it is brushed. Especially with Bean, the Chamois shirts are much thicker/denser than the flannel shirts (I have both). I was going to make a post on LL Bean products that I've known about for decades, but haven't tried until lately and the chamois shirt is one of them. I've owned lots of other makes and didn't buy the Bean version b/c, at the time, I preferred a button down collar and thought them relatively over priced. I'm starting my second winter with several and bought more this year. For whatever reason, the Bean chamois shirts are by far the best I've ever owned - they've kept their nap and have not pilled. One feels like cotton ball it so soft (I did get a red one that shed its nap within 2 washes - Bean replaced w/o problem and the replacement is holding up fine)


First with the difference between flannel and chamois cloth. I believe flannel is standardly made from a twill weave that has been brushed, whereas I don't believe that chamois cloth is a twill and tends to be much more tightly woven, though I'm uncertain of the nature of the weave. I also think that cotton flannel is a more standardized term than chamois cloth which I recall being introduced comparatively recently as more of a marketing term to just connote a cloth that wore as well as chamois leather.

The best chamois cloth shirts I own were purchased from the late Atlantic Rancher over 10 years ago and are incredibly thick and dense with a very short nap that resembles what you would find on a billiard table. Very warm, and classic work shirt able to stand up to abuse. I remember that the shirt was made in Portugal though I am uncertain of the origin of the fabric.

The best flannel shirts I've *ever* had were purchased from Lands End perhaps a dozen years ago. They were woven in traditional tartans from thick and dense but very soft cotton flannel. I think the cloth may have come from Portugal but the shirts were made in Hungary, and what a glory they are. All panels are perfectly cut and sewn, and the buttons never fall off! I've purchased flannel shirts from Lands End and elsewhere before and since, but have never found their equal. After buying one tartan, I immediately splurged and purchased the remaining color-ways, and am very glad I did.

As with just about anything, while Portugal might make the best flannel, simply being made in Portugal doesn't mean it's the best, as there is varying quality deliberately made to be either cheaper or better. As with most any cotton, adequate density and softness tend to be indications that it was well made from better cotton.


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

how about chamois cloth vs moleskin?


----------



## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

https://www.brisbanemoss.co.uk/history.asp

https://www.brisbanemoss.co.uk/fabrics.asp?qual=MOL00


----------



## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> The best chamois cloth shirts I own were purchased from the late Atlantic Rancher over 10 years ago and are incredibly thick and dense with a very short nap that resembles what you would find on a billiard table. Very warm, and classic work shirt able to stand up to abuse. I remember that the shirt was made in Portugal though I am uncertain of the origin of the fabric.


That reminds me of my other grievance against Bean shirts at the time - I found shirts that used someting heavier than the 7.5 oz material that Bean used (9 and 10oz shirts), thinking heavier meant better. You, obviously, found shirts that were both heavy-weight and superior. Perhaps becasue I live down South, but I find Bean's shirts more than sufficiently thick and warm. My experience was that other chamois shirts shrunk, pilled, or quickly lost their nap. So far I've been very pleased with Bean (though the new flannel shirts seem to be lighter weight than of days of yore).

LE did some great quality merchandise years ago - and you make me wish I had spotted this shirts years ago. I don't understand why merchants offer generic plaid flannel shirts when actual tartans are almost always so much more attractive (writing this in a Buchanan tartan viyella shirt right now).


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks, C#


----------



## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Your Welcome.



The Rambler said:


> Thanks, C#


----------



## ramalhoni (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi there.. I'm the Guy that did the little visit to the amazing Flannel factory - TEVIZ- in the north of Portugal. 
We do have quite a nice little niche, when it comes to making high quality fabrics, shoes, etc...
Our factories have been "naturally selected" in these harsh economic times, and so, only the very best survive. Teviz is one of them and is currently undergoing a major multimillion euros remodel to make it even better. 
As for the napping they have flannels that are napped on both sides and others that are just on one side.
If any of you guys have a shirt maker near you, take a look on what I posted and if you like any of the fabrics in the pics drop me a line and maybe if they still have it I can get you a couple of meters for a shirt. 
Cheers...


----------



## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

If I recall correctly, Lands' End until a couple of years ago was still marketing the Portuguese flannel. I haven't seen it for at least two or three years now.


----------



## DoghouseReilly (Jul 25, 2010)

^^ There are Portuguese flannel shirts on their site this year. Bean's look like a better deal, though.


----------



## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

DoghouseReilly said:


> ^^ There are Portuguese flannel shirts on their site this year. Bean's look like a better deal, though.


Apologizes. I guess they aren't as heavily promoted though. I seem to recall full-page spreads in the catalogue with big, bold headlines. I also reckon they aren't made in Portugal any longer.


----------

