# LL Bean chamois shirt rant



## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

I've always worn and always been a fan of LL Bean's flannel shirts- for my money, you can't beat the feel and the warmth of the fabric or the classic patterns. So at the end of last winter (February-ish), I decided to branch out and purchase my first chamois shirt from them- this beautiful apple cinnamon plaid that screams "fall":


the shirt is amazing. I was advised prior to ordering the shirt to order a size down (because the shirt was a bit larger) so I ordered a small. The fit is great- slightly bulky (so I wear it as a light jacket), with ample sleeve length (which was my primary concern with ordering a small). All in all, probably my favorite fall/winter shirt.

fast forward to today. With cooler weather approaching, I decided that I wanted to get a couple solid chamois shirts (navy and green specifically). Since my first one is a small, I ordered a small for this as well. Long story short, here is the new one on top of the old one:


both size small, both traditional fit, the new one with sleeves about 2" shorter and attached at a clearly different pitch (I think that's the term). Since the sleeves were too short to be useable, I reordered a medium in the same shirt- the same size I wear for their scotch plaid flannel shirts. Results:


Besides the body being longer and wider (which was expected), the sleeves are STILL an inch shorter on the medium than my older small.

I had always heard to size down on the chamois, and that worked amazingly well on my first shirt, but unfortunately- as much as I like the material- it doesn't appear as though I'll be able to wear these. I do wonder if my first shirt was the inconsistent one- if so, it worked in my favor, but I wish I could replicate it.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Have you tried a small-tall? That'd fix your sleeve problem: https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/589...SLV_LNGTH*Long-Sleeve^1*SIZE_PROPORTION*Tall^


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Reuben said:


> Have you tried a small-tall? That'd fix your sleeve problem: https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/589...SLV_LNGTH*Long-Sleeve^1*SIZE_PROPORTION*Tall^


I wish they had a small-yall, but the only talks I see are medium and up


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

These two have small-tall options:

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/651...hamois-cloth-shirt-slim-fit&productId=1238886

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/830...-cloth-shirt-slim-fit-plaid&productId=1377813


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

I've found sizing to be inconsistent on this shirt and the LLB Scotch plaid flannel shirts. I just sent one back yesterday to exchange for a smaller size. Fingers crossed.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

The real lesson here is that if you find something that you really like and fits well buy multiples, because tomorrow will never be like yesterday. I have kicked myself more than once for not following that logic.


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## bloogy (Feb 14, 2014)

I have to agree with OCBD. I have probably been buying the chamois shirts from LLB for about 20 years. Every year, the country of origin for the sewing changes and the details get a little worse. Little things, like poorer quality buttons. And I agree with OF that the sizing can be odd. I lost a bunch of weight a while back and am pretty used to wearing things that are too big as I rejigger my wardrobe. In the instance of the chamois shirts, it's because I mostly tend to throw them on over an undershirt when I come from work in the cooler months. So as Iong as I'm warm, fit is not a huge issue. But late last winter I decided to try and size down to one that actually fit. Weirdly, these days I seem to fall out somewhere between a medium and a large. I stuck with the medium because it was less baggy but I have to wonder who they are using as their standard body type these days. Because it's the regular full cut but it fits a lot closer than I would have thought and I cannot account for the difference just because it's one size down.

And to OF's point, there is no excuse for such a wide variation on a standard (alphabetic) size. Just out of curiosity, OF, are both shirts made in the same country?



oxford cloth button down said:


> The real lesson here is that if you find something that you really like and fits well buy multiples, because tomorrow will never be like yesterday. I have kicked myself more than once for not following that logic.


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## Dr. D (Nov 19, 2010)

This is not unique to the chamois shirt, nor is this problem endemic to just Beans - Lands End is also famous for switching suppliers annually so that you can never get the same exact thing twice. It is well known around these parts that Beans' inventory is fickle from year to year and you have to get it while you can. Every fall my wife chides me to order our winter goods before Halloween because "everyone else is going to order the good stuff and you'll be left with purple polka dots in XXXXXL." And every year she is right- by Christmas time the pickings are slim.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I have been buying clothes from Bean, intermittently, since the mid-1950s. Not sure I'll ever get more from them. I deep-sixed my remaining Bean's flannel shirts not long ago just to make more room in my closet.


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## Ensiferous (Mar 5, 2012)

oxford cloth button down said:


> if you find something that you really like and fits well buy multiples, because tomorrow will never be like yesterday.


Very true.

One is none. Two is one. The third is a spare.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

As some here say, it makes sense to buy in bulk when you find a staple whose fit and quality suit your needs. A few years ago, I learned that a large, privately-owned outdoor store was phasing out their current supplier's silk turtlenecks, which are my trusted base layer for winter mountaineering and skiing. Believing (correctly) that whatever came next would be more expensive and worse, I bought all five remaining in my size and have not been sorry. For OF, I suggest sending the photos and an explanation to LLB and ask them to recommend a fit. It would be hard for them to ignore something that clearly written and visually competent. They might even alter some for a very good customer.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

oxford cloth button down said:


> The real lesson here is that if you find something that you really like and fits well buy multiples, because tomorrow will never be like yesterday. I have kicked myself more than once for not following that logic.


I generally do (exhibit A- my Brooks OCBD collection), but for this one I didn't want multiples of the same pattern, and I knew the basic solid colors would still be around, I just didn't think sizing would change so much.

this does make me nervous to order the scotch plaid flannel shirts this year though...



bloogy said:


> And to OF's point, there is no excuse for such a wide variation on a standard (alphabetic) size. Just out of curiosity, OF, are both shirts made in the same country?


They are- both are El Salvador, which is part of why I found it odd



Ensiferous said:


> Very true.
> 
> One is none. Two is one. The third is a spare.


Absolutely. I tend to do this primarily with shirts


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

They will also shrink from washing : https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wdff9typHz8/Ve7OHkQdywI/AAAAAAAAeAU/V1Yxgc86XDY/s1600/3-IMG_3815.JPG

https://www.saltwaternewengland.com/2015/09/ll-bean-chamois-shirts-and-scotch-plaid.html


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Nice Salt Water New England post! Thank you for sharing, although my wallet does not thank you. I just sprang for two flannel shirts, the navy tartan and the Prince Charles of Edward red.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Brio1 said:


> They will also shrink from washing : https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wdff9typHz8/Ve7OHkQdywI/AAAAAAAAeAU/V1Yxgc86XDY/s1600/3-IMG_3815.JPG
> 
> https://www.saltwaternewengland.com/2015/09/ll-bean-chamois-shirts-and-scotch-plaid.html


I've noted that post by Muffy in the past, but I haven't really experienced that much shrinkage in my LLB flannel shirts.

I've got a couple size L here that strike me (after removing from storage) as just too big/baggy. The problem is, when I tried size M in the past I found them too tight. I may exchange them for the "slightly fitted" versions, but I'm growing weary of the perpetual exchange by mail with LLB. I guess I'm a tweener, LOL.

I wish LLB had a store near me so I could try them on in person.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

No, no, no! Embrace the billow!



gamma68 said:


> I've noted that post by Muffy in the past, but I haven't really experienced that much shrinkage in my LLB flannel shirts.
> 
> I've got a couple size L here that strike me (after removing from storage) as just too big/baggy. The problem is, when I tried size M in the past I found them too tight. I may exchange them for the "slightly fitted" versions, but I'm growing weary of the perpetual exchange by mail with LLB. I guess I'm a tweener, LOL.
> 
> I wish LLB had a store near me so I could try them on in person.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

oxford cloth button down said:


> The real lesson here is that if you find something that you really like and fits well buy multiples, because tomorrow will never be like yesterday. I have kicked myself more than once for not following that logic.


Could not agree more. Especially today versus in Ivy's heyday (or, honestly, up until the late '80s when trad men's clothing went from "pretty consistent year to year" to "everyone always tweaking their business model" so nothing now is ever the same).

We have other threads on the subject and have discussed it from many angles, but it is brutal how inconsistent sizing is within the same store, same brand, same model, same exact size and all of that inconsistency grows when a year passes and, as OF just did, you discover that the exact same item is sized differently. Grrr.

As noted by Ensiferous (and very well said at that - there's a writer's flair to your phrasing), I think three is the minimal right number for something you really like and want to have around to wear for many years (for the right OCBD, 30 [or 300 - okay just kidding] might be the correct number to stockpile - I'll let you know if I ever find the "perfect" one - FF looking for his "perfect" OCBD::fool.

There might be a separate thread in here as we all must have a "number" for items we stockpile and we all must have stories of those items we wish we had stocked up on and those that we did and shouldn't have (and took them to goodwill years later). Thoughts?

And OF, I feel your pain, but if it helps, that apple-cinnamon flannel is scripted out of central casting for Fall leaf season.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I'll add, for whatever it's worth, which is probably not much, that I love the Bean red chamois shirt I bought last year. It is perfect.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

gamma68 said:


> I've noted that post by Muffy in the past, but I haven't really experienced that much shrinkage in my LLB flannel shirts.
> 
> I've got a couple size L here that strike me (after removing from storage) as just too big/baggy. The problem is, when I tried size M in the past I found them too tight. I may exchange them for the "slightly fitted" versions, but I'm growing weary of the perpetual exchange by mail with LLB. I guess I'm a tweener, LOL.
> 
> I wish LLB had a store near me so I could try them on in person.


The shipping is free so why not order both sizes for comparison. And if you are a cardmember then returns are also free otherwise it is $ 6.50 : https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/510624?bvCategory=510624&nav=ftlink


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## dparm (Nov 18, 2008)

LLB is not the only company guilty of this. Lands' End has had this problem for a while. Each time the country of manufacture changes on their dress shirts, the fitment changes. I've had to actually size UP in the collar by 0.5 for some reason. The cut of the sleeves has also changed slightly too. It's a bit frustrating, but at least returns are easy.

I've actually noticed this a bit with Brooks, too. I have a few of their shirts from 4 years ago that fit differently than the "identical" shirt today.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I know. It's frustrating. I don't know why life has to be so hard.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Duvel said:


> I know. It's frustrating. I don't know why life has to be so hard.




Yes, these are the cosmic challenges of life that test the depths of man's character and fortitude.


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## MythReindeer (Jul 3, 2013)

gamma68 said:


> I've noted that post by Muffy in the past, but I haven't really experienced that much shrinkage in my LLB flannel shirts.
> 
> I've got a couple size L here that strike me (after removing from storage) as just too big/baggy. The problem is, when I tried size M in the past I found them too tight. I may exchange them for the "slightly fitted" versions, but I'm growing weary of the perpetual exchange by mail with LLB. I guess I'm a tweener, LOL.
> 
> I wish LLB had a store near me so I could try them on in person.


I often find "traditional" fits too billowy and "slim" fits too tight. The LLB "slightly fitted" flannel shirt is a good in-between in my opinion.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm wearing my red LL Bean chamois shirt right now! Over a Brooks traditional fit OCBD.

It's getting chilly out there. If only a great body of water with ducks were nearby.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Duvel said:


> I'm wearing my red LL Bean chamois shirt right now! Over a Brooks traditional fit OCBD.
> 
> It's getting chilly out there. If only a great body of water with ducks were nearby.


Its still in the 80's here lol


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Well, you are a _bit _south of this latitude. Move to Iowa. We'll show you a _real _fall and winter. 



orange fury said:


> Its still in the 80's here lol


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Duvel said:


> Well, you are a _bit _south of this latitude. Move to Iowa. We'll show you a _real _fall and winter.


Haha I won't argue with that. We'll have a high of 71*F next Saturday, which will be the lowest high we've had. It's a start at least.

What happened to all the predictions that the south would have a particularly cold winter this year? I have tweed and flannel that needs to be worn!


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

So I'm necro-threading my own thread from a year ago (does it really count as a necro if it's only a year old?). I didn't want to start another thread to ask a question though. I have a $10 gift card at LL Bean, and I'm looking at ordering another chamois shirt from LL Bean this year (while they're 20% off) and hoping they've fixed the fit problems I had last year. I ordered navy last year because I wear mostly khaki chinos, but I'm really liking the look of the chamois color (tan/camel). From those that own the tan, any thoughts on versatility vs the navy? Does it work with khaki chinos, or would I be better served wearing it with greens/Browns/etc?I would be wearing it over OCBDs, fwiw.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

May be this will make sense. I have chinos in shades (colors?) from whitish stone through dark khaki and sweaters in the same range. I often wear them in combination when the difference between the sweater, or turtleneck, and the pants is distinct enough to avoid a perception that the two garments are flowing into one another. When doing this, I try to select the belt and shoes according to the shade of the pants and, if wearing a windbreaker, match it toward the shade of the sweater.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Received my shirt today. Better fitting than last year's model:


wanted to get opinions on the sleeve length. It seems good right now, but I'm worried about shrinkage- I wash cold and hang dry all my flannel shirts, so I've never noticed shrinkage with my other shirts, but my other chamois (same size) had much longer sleeves. Thoughts?


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## crispyfresh (Jan 30, 2016)

orange fury said:


> Received my shirt today. Better fitting than last year's model:
> 
> 
> wanted to get opinions on the sleeve length. It seems good right now, but I'm worried about shrinkage- I wash cold and hang dry all my flannel shirts, so I've never noticed shrinkage with my other shirts, but my other chamois (same size) had much longer sleeves. Thoughts?


I'm curious as to their chamois shirts. It looks good on you. Are you gonna wear it tucked or untucked?


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

If you're not going to be wearing it with a suit I think the sleeves fall right where they should, just below your wrists.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

orange fury said:


> Received my shirt today. Better fitting than last year's model:
> 
> wanted to get opinions on the sleeve length. It seems good right now, but I'm worried about shrinkage- I wash cold and hang dry all my flannel shirts, so I've never noticed shrinkage with my other shirts, but my other chamois (same size) had much longer sleeves. Thoughts?


I think the sleeve length looks perfect. My wife throws my chamois shirts in the dryer, and I don't think they've shrunk much ... so with your routine I doubt shrinkage will be an issue.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

crispyfresh said:


> I'm curious as to their chamois shirts. It looks good on you. Are you gonna wear it tucked or untucked?


Thanks- they're wonderfully thick, I love the fabric. I'll wear it untucked, probably over an OCBD as a light jacket.



xcubbies said:


> If you're not going to be wearing it with a suit I think the sleeves fall right where they should, just below your wrists.





August West said:


> I think the sleeve length looks perfect. My wife throws my chamois shirts in the dryer, and I don't think they've shrunk much ... so with your routine I doubt shrinkage will be an issue.


Thanks for the feedback gents- I guess my concern is that the sleeves are great now, I just hope they don't shrink over time. I just pulled it out of the wash and hung it up to dry, so we'll see how it does.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I do have to say that most people here (Maine) wear their chamois shirts over other flannel shirts, especially when doing work outdoors in cooler weather. If that was your plan, you'd probably need the next larger size up, and roll the sleeves up.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

xcubbies said:


> I do have to say that most people here (Maine) wear their chamois shirts over other flannel shirts, especially when doing work outdoors in cooler weather. If that was your plan, you'd probably need the next larger size up, and roll the sleeves up.


so i tried it on again after washing- the sleeves didnt seem to shrink any, but i did notice that the body was fairly slim (perfect if i werent wearing anything under it, but im not sure how an ocbd would fit under it (much less a flannel, which i at least want the option to be able to do). i went ahead and ordered a medium and will see if that works better. My only concern is that the chest on the medium is supposedly 48" (im 38"), so i may need to shrink it some, but at least ill know that it wontt end up too small.

Sorry that I'm being OCD with this- I just want these shirts to work out


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

Dr. D said:


> This is not unique to the chamois shirt, nor is this problem endemic to just Beans - Lands End is also famous for switching suppliers annually so that you can never get the same exact thing twice. It is well known around these parts that Beans' inventory is fickle from year to year and you have to get it while you can. Every fall my wife chides me to order our winter goods before Halloween because "everyone else is going to order the good stuff and you'll be left with purple polka dots in XXXXXL." And every year she is right- by Christmas time the pickings are slim.


I've made this point several times before. It's good to see that I no longer have to explain that many stores source their merchandise from independent contractors all over the world, but concentrated in areas with low labor costs. And that is why quality, fit, findings, and so on are inconsistent from season to season and from garment to garment. The other side of the argument, how to avoid the size/quality crapshoot, has yet to catch on. Here's the trick: Buy brands that make their own merchandise. Screw Bean. Screw Lands End. Screw Macy's. Screw L&T, Saks, Bloomies. As I've said before, "Why would you trust a guy who wears a sarong to make a pair of pants?" Go where the history and the expertise are. Buy Gitman Shirts. Buy Hertling pants. Buy Hickey or H. Freeman, or Samuelsohn clothing. Buy Alden shoes and Alex Begg scarves. Drake or Talbott ties. It makes the decisions so much simpler to limit the possibilities. Buy from companies that own their production. Part of the beauty of traditional clothing is that you can count on reasonable (not absolute) consistency. Granted, Samuelsohn, for instance, has introduced some trendy high-and-tight models into its line, but Greenwich is still there, too. Gitman has added Vintage for the hipster stores, but Classic is still available. You can buy three Bean chamois shirts in inadvertently assorted sizes for $56 a piece and tell yourself that you are participating in the traditional clothing club, or you can buy one Gitman flannel shirt in the exact size and model you want. ( And when you buy only one shirt, you needn't worry about inconsistent sizing). I'd much rather read yet another discussion of the difference between the Barrie and the Van lasts than another rant about the crap LL Bean's if foisting on us as if it hasn't changed in 50 years. What was Brooks Bros doing differently when they were beloved? They owned their production. Then, the organizational genius, Bill Roberti read Tom Peters and outsourced everything Brooks had once made for itself. While they are trying to recapture that lost strategy, Chinese sweaters and Mauritanian shirts are here to stay. It's sad when your merchandising strategy is built on taking advantage of credulous, oblivious customers.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Received the medium today and the fit is perfect. I washed it and it still fits the same- even if I lost an inch in the sleeves, they still would be long enough. Whatever supplier they're using this year must work for me size-wise, guess I'll spend this winter stocking up on the colors I want.


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## Quorum (Oct 10, 2009)

I would love to find a chamois cloth shirt that is made by a company which owns its production. Gitman makes flannel shirts, but not--that I've seen--anything with the density and weight of true chamois cloth.

Is there a manufacturer of chamois shirts which owns its own production? I know of only one source of US-made chamois shirts, Taylor Stitch, and while the fabric is impeccable and construction quality is solid, the cut is not what I suspect many on this forum are seeking (slim, with short tails designed to be worn untucked and thus impossible to keep tucked in, a very short collar, and no back or sleeve pleats at all) and colors are extremely limited (this year you get black, navy, and purple, I think). I've also looked for Portuguese manufacturers but not been able to find one. I'd live in these shirts in the winter if I could find something suitable that is made somewhere that people are paid decently.


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

Quorum said:


> I would love to find a chamois cloth shirt that is made by a company which owns its production. Gitman makes flannel shirts, but not--that I've seen--anything with the density and weight of true chamois cloth.


That's an interesting challenge. I wonder if there is a domestic or European source for chamois shirts.


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## Old Road Dog (Sep 4, 2015)

For that style of shirt, the fit seems borderline small on you. I layer those shirts often, which you would not be able to do. The sleeve also looks a bit shy to me...1/4". Are you a medium? You are probably 33-1/2" sleeve. I will say the shirts I have did not shrink. They are great shirts though; imitated, but not equalled.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Old Road Dog said:


> For that style of shirt, the fit seems borderline small on you. I layer those shirts often, which you would not be able to do. The sleeve also looks a bit shy to me...1/4". Are you a medium? You are probably 33-1/2" sleeve. I will say the shirts I have did not shrink. They are great shirts though; imitated, but not equalled.


The shirt was a small, I typically wear a 38" chest/15" neck/34" sleeve. Coincidentally, I ordered the medium and washed it last night, this one fits much better IMHO:


(The left sleeve is unbuttoned, which is why it's wider/longer than the right).

my intention with this shirt was to use it as a layering piece, so this fit works much better for me. The sleeves are long enough that a little shrinkage won't bother me (though I do wash cold/hang dry everything)


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