# Wedding Tuxedo Question-Wing-Collar Shirt VS Turndown-Collar Shirt



## jc4pack (May 13, 2009)

Wing-Collar Shirt VS Turndown-Collar Shirt

Getting married in the July and need help with this. I don't really care for the wing-collar shirt, because it seems to make my face look puffy. I'm not an overweight guy, just have a round face. Would I be breaking tradition by going with the turndown collar?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

No, the Duke of Windsor wore turn down collars with black tie, many of his innovations went in the direction from more formal to less formal.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Turndown collar, definitely. Wing collars are so prom-night.


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

There was an informative tux thread a week or two ago, worth reading. It contained a link to a website on the subject. I didn't agree with everything on that website, but it was generally solid. Find that thread.

I wore wing collars in the 80's, when I was dating a cute little sorority girl. I now consider wing collar shirts to be trying too hard, but that's just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. 

I think the key thing for that day is, it's not your job to be the prettiest person in the room -- that job belongs to another person. Dressing quietly -- conservatively -- will speak volumes about your character. Dressing pretentiously (if we agree that wing collars are pretentious) will also speak about your character. 

Regarding a round face, I would suggest that you experiment with collar styles. I used to think that spread collars looked bad with round faces, but I've arrived at a point where I think that almost any guy (at least, almost any guy without a double chin and basset hound jowls) can wear almost any collar style -- it depends on his comfort and confidence. I prefer medium-spread, myself, including with a tux.

Now, indulge me, while I ramble. I hope that you are able to treat yourself to your own tux, not a rental. You'll wear it for at least ten years, so amortise that cost in your mind, as you set your budget. Shoot for decent fabric, 120's or 130's, not the burlap used in cheap tuxes. Have it tailored sharply, with a bit of a waist in the jacket, and leave a bit of room in the trouser waist for rich dinners. Tie your own tie. Try suspenders instead of a cummerbund -- a world of difference in both comfort and elegance. I bought silver-gray suspenders, and I also wear them with my gray suits. (Sitting through a play and then supper is drastically more comfortable with suspenders than not.) Treat yourself to a good-quality, simple, cotton tux shirt. Nordstrom is good for this item, although too expensive and limited for the suit itself, IMO. If possible, treat yourself to a simple set of plain sterling studs and cuff links. Whatever you do, resist the temptation to add any color whatsoever to your ensemble, no matter how classy that burgundy tapestry tie looks. Death's-head skull cufflinks, or rolling dice cufflinks, are best avoided as well.

There's more I'd like to ramble on, but you didn't ask, so I'll stop.

Many happy returns of the day. No... that didn't come out right. Congratulations and happy trails.


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## joshuagb (Nov 27, 2004)

Turndown a great option.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

PTB in San Diego said:


> Dressing quietly -- conservatively -- will speak volumes about your character. Dressing pretentiously (if we agree that wing collars are pretentious) will also speak about your character.


While I agree with you on the preferred collar, I don't think that the style collar one wears says anything at all about that person's character.



> I hope that you are able to treat yourself to your own tux, not a rental. You'll wear it for at least ten years, so amortise that cost in your mind, as you set your budget.


Again, I agree with you on buying the tuxedo; however, not necessarily for the reason you gave. Keep in mind that the majority of men never wear a tuxedo again after their wedding. For most their wedding and prom are the only times that they do so. Even so, unless I was one of those people for whom off the rack clothing fits perfectly, I would buy my own even if it wasn't likely that I would wear it again.



> Try suspenders instead of a cummerbund -- a world of difference in both comfort and elegance.


It's not an either/or thing. You should wear suspenders with a tuxedo whether you are wearing a cummerbund or not.

Cruiser


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

PTB in San Diego said:


> ...Try suspenders instead of a cummerbund...


Huh?

Suspenders hold up the trousers. Cummerbund covers the waistband.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Orsini said:


> Huh?
> 
> Suspenders hold up the trousers. Cummerbund covers the waistband.


+1. I commonly see this mistake. But to anyone who incorrectly believes that it's either/or, how might a cummerbund support your trousers?


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> While I agree with you on the preferred collar, I don't think that the style collar one wears says anything at all about that person's character.
> Cruiser


OK, fair enough. Does anything that anyone wears make a statement, or an implication, however subtle, about character?



Cruiser said:


> Again, I agree with you on buying the tuxedo; however, not necessarily for the reason you gave. Keep in mind that the majority of men never wear a tuxedo again after their wedding. For most their wedding and prom are the only times that they do so. Even so, unless I was one of those people for whom off the rack clothing fits perfectly, I would buy my own even if it wasn't likely that I would wear it again.
> Cruiser


Well, that's a damn shame. What do they wear to opening night of the opera?

My instinct is that if the occasional wearing of a tuxedo is not part of one's life, then it's a bit forced to bother with one at one's wedding. Just my opinion. I got married twenty years after purchasing my first tux, but I wore a suit at my wedding. Or perhaps that's an irrelevant data point -- the ceremony was in the late afternoon.



Cruiser said:


> It's not an either/or thing. You should wear suspenders with a tuxedo whether you are wearing a cummerbund or not.
> Cruiser


Oops. In that case, I did it wrong for twenty-five years. I wish someone had told me earlier. Regardless, I'm very happy to have finally learned about suspenders, both with work suits and with my tux. And I no longer bother with a cummerbund, although I do button my coat when I stand.


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

lol at someone thinking wing collars are pretentious

IMO turndown collars are fine with black tie, but if it's something like my own wedding I'd definitely opt for the wing collar, because I wouldn't want to be out-dressed by my guests. However, if you really do look horrible in a wing collar, why not go with a more casual setting and just wear a suit?


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## LoneWolf (Apr 20, 2006)

When I wear a tuxedo, I wear a BB Gold Fleece shirt with a 2.5" detachable wing tip collar that I "sourced" elsewear and a vest. With a dinner jacket I wear a formal shirt with a turndown collar and a cummerbund. My rationale is that the a tuxedo is more formal than a dinner jacket and so should be paired with a more formal collar and waist covering. 

If I ever get married, my only request (after all, it is the bride's show) will be that the timing is such that I can wear a morning suit for the ceremony and white tie for the reception.


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## phillyesq (Dec 9, 2008)

I did a lot of research on this before my own wedding. I came to the following conclusions:

(1) The wing collar may be more technically appropriate;

(2) I preferred a turndown collar, and absolutely nobody in attendance would even suspect that it was anything other completely appropriate.

I went with a turndown collar and it looked great. Faced with the same choice, I'd make the same decision.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

jc4pack said:


> Wing-Collar Shirt VS Turndown-Collar Shirt
> 
> Getting married in the July and need help with this. I don't really care for the wing-collar shirt, because it seems to make my face look puffy. I'm not an overweight guy, just have a round face. Would I be breaking tradition by going with the turndown collar?


Then don't wear one. IMHO, they look awful and cliche (unless it white tie/tailcoat). Turn down collar is much more tasteful and subdued...again, IMHO.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I'm another who believes wing collars only belong with white tie. Not with black tie and not with morning dress.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

The website referred to earlier is www.blacktieguide.com -- everything you'll ever need to know about the subject.

Go with a regular collar, I say. If your wedding takes place during the day, wear a suit or morning coat instead. Black tie is only for night events.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm very familiar with the black tie guide and I realize that according to it, it may not be correct, but I like a wing collar. To me, a turn down collar is just too close to wearing a black suit.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

If you want to wear wing collar, remember that the shirt has to be the same as for white tie, ie. stiff front, detachable collar, single cuffs. However, if wing collar does not flatter you, just go for turndown collar. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

Since we're on the topic, can someone please explain the benefit of a detachable collar to me?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Hanzo said:


> Since we're on the topic, can someone please explain the benefit of a detachable collar to me?


The detachable collar can be laundered separately and can be stiffly starched without starching the rest of the shirt.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

I happen to like wing collars, but I also maintain that this a matter where one might say _gustibus non disputandem_. If you prefer a turndown, wear one. I will say that if you do want to go with a wing collar, look hard and find a shirt without pleats: the wing collar and pleated shirt will make you look like you belong at a prom. Paul Stuart and BB both sell them; most everyday retailers do not.

As for wing collars being pretentious, that strikes me as quite a lot of rot. Somewhat old-fashioned perhaps, but it's nonsense to insist that "old-fashioned" and "pretentious" are synonymous. Good clothes are, after all, almost all old-fashioned these days.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

arkirshner said:


> The detachable collar can be laundered separately and can be stiffly starched without starching the rest of the shirt.


But if you also have to starch the bib, does it make a difference?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Hanzo said:


> But if you also have to starch the bib, does it make a difference?


You don't want to starch the sides and back and you want more starch on the collar than bib


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

arkirshner said:


> You don't want to starch the sides and back and you want more starch on the collar than bib


Gotcha. And I appreciate the answer, I never could understand that one.


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

a!!!!1 said:


> lol at someone thinking wing collars are pretentious





Titus_A said:


> As for wing collars being pretentious, that strikes me as quite a lot of rot.


I'll try harder to use phrases like, "in my opinion", "I consider", "your mileage may vary", and so on, more frequently, and more clearly, and maybe even more often, in my posts, in order to make it quite clear that I am expressing my own opinion on the subject at hand, and that I am certainly not trying to suggest that my opinion is the final word on the matter. At hand. Of which we are speaking. Presently.

In my opinion, that practice might get a bit repetitive, or even redundant or excessive, or perhaps repetitive, in my opinion. Your mileage may vary, and you may feel differently, and you may even have different conclusions on the matter.

The above is only my own opinion. Others will perhaps disagree. Regardless, I'm happy to have given another fellow a moment of levity. Besides, as I own a notched lapel tux, I am defined once and for all as an unwashed, perhaps even unsophisticated, barbarian. (Note to self -- change AAAC nickname to "Phil S. Teen".)


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I think wing collars are too costumey for black tie. Turn-down collars have been the standard for black tie since the war. Whilst I admire pre-war fashion, I try to avoid costume.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

Matt S said:


> I think wing collars are too costumey for black tie. Turn-down collars have been the standard for black tie since the war. Whilst I admire pre-war fashion, I try to avoid costume.


Black tie IS a costume.


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## LoneWolf (Apr 20, 2006)

Hanzo said:


> Since we're on the topic, can someone please explain the benefit of a detachable collar to me?





arkirshner said:


> The detachable collar can be laundered separately and can be stiffly starched without starching the rest of the shirt.


Also gives you a bit of versatility. You can buy a turndown collar and attach it for those occasions when you don't want to wear a wing, or if you like different sized collars (I like higher ones), you can switch it up without having to buy a different shirt.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Hanzo said:


> Black tie IS a costume.


White tie is costume in the sense that it is hardly worn today and is (sadly) almost deady. Black tie is still worn.


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## 4dgt90 (Dec 2, 2009)

PTB in San Diego said:


> Try suspenders instead of a cummerbund -- a world of difference in both comfort and elegance.


Agree with you everwhere in your post except this. You should always wear suspenders and you should always cover your waist, either with a cummerbund or a vest. I would go with the cummerbund. Therefore you should wear both.

Back to the OP's question, I also agree with the turndown collar.


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## 4dgt90 (Dec 2, 2009)

a!!!!1 said:


> ...if it's something like my own wedding I'd definitely opt for the wing collar, because I wouldn't want to be out-dressed by my guests.


I've only been to a wedding or two as I'm still in my early 20s so forgive me if I'm naive, but isn't the groom (and maybe the wedding party) the only one(s) wearing tuxes, i.e. no guests would be wearing tuxes therefore no matter what collar you wear, you would not be overdressed by a guest.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

tdecast said:


> I've only been to a wedding or two as I'm still in my early 20s so forgive me if I'm naive, but isn't the groom (and maybe the wedding party) the only one(s) wearing tuxes, i.e. no guests would be wearing tuxes therefore no matter what collar you wear, you would not be overdressed by a guest.


I can understand why you'd think that based on the prevalent custom, but it is born out of ignorance and poor dressing rather than appropriateness.

Really, all at the wedding should be dressed in the same manner, but, we all know that's not going to happen. So, black tie turned into 'black tie preferred' acknowledging not all own black tie, thereby giving some leeway to those without. Of course, the wedding party would be appropriately dressed. Over the years, fewer and fewer people owned black tie, so while the wedding party was still held to a high standard, few others did, which brings us to the idea that only the wedding party wears formal attire, which is not true.

You will still come across some weddings that say black tie preferred or black tie optional. Though sadly, they are fewer and fewer these days.


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