# Segregation.



## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Today, I was driving around a middle class black neighborhood in Hartford. And noticed a white family has moved into a house on the street. I've noticed a few of these families as of late. This area is hardly a case for gentrification so I'm not sure of their motives for living in this neighborhood, but that's besides the point. I was a bit bothered by seeing this tiny influx of white families. I am against segregation by law or by manipulation and intimidation. Saying that, I desire to live in a middle class Black neighborhood.
Is it racist to desire to live among your race? Is self segregation wrong?

( For the record, I am not one who has issues with Whites having the same desires)


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

The generally accepted answer is that it is okay when non-whites or hispanics want to do it, wrong when whites do.


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## The Wife (Feb 4, 2006)

J. Pierpont,

One of the great freedoms which are afforded to U.S. citizens is the right to congregate; another one is the right to not be red-lined out of a community. While I support the natural desire to live among one's ethnic group, there is going to be someone who wishes to join the neighborhood, whether it is for economical or social reasons. As a conservative, I resist change in some departments. For example, in a Spanish Colonial "barrio" in Santa Fe, residents are reluctant to accept the "yuppie" invasion, because there comes with the infusion of money a certain amount of arrogance and a dismissal of four-hundred years of tradition and history.

I could say more, but I must run...interesting query, J. Pierpont.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> The generally accepted answer is that it is okay when non-whites or Hispanics want to do it, wrong when whites do.


I disagree that's the case in the the North East, especially in regards to
Italian, Jewish and Polish people.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I'm at a parttime job last week. The new iranian manager walks up to Walter, the oldest, probably most critical employee in the company. This moron announces, " I have scheduled you off for your racial holiday monday." Walter just sort of stands there open mouthed. I speak up, " I won't be in monday, it's my race too." The 5 other employees caught on, and in a rare moment of cohesiveness announced it was their racial holiday also. This clown, who is ruddier in complexion than all of us, even Walter says " but, you don't look black." I respond, " No, but we're all americans." The small company is now simply closing on monday, and I received my final paycheck friday.


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## The Wife (Feb 4, 2006)

Yes, I hear you, J. Pierpont. For a very short time in 1981, I lived in a Brooklyn neighborhood (Borough Park) while working in Manhattan. I had found a fantastic apartment there. Not knowing anything about the ethnic neighborhood formations in New York City's boroughs, it was somewhat of an anthropological expedition, as I discovered that the Hassidic community in which I found myself was resistant to interlopers. Shortly thereafter, I found an equally great place to live in Manhattan.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> The generally accepted answer is that it is okay when non-whites or hispanics want to do it, wrong when whites do.


Great answer.


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## Isaac Mickle (Nov 28, 2006)

I think yes, it is "racist" to believe that "race" correlates so strongly with taste, values, principles, behavior, etc.

There is only one race. The genes controlling skin color are very simple. Hair color is much more complicated. All other things being equal, there is greater genetic difference between a blond and a black-haired man than there is between a dark- and a light-skinned man.

If these white people do not share the tastes, values, and principles of the neighborhood; if they do not behave like the others in the neighborhood; then perhaps you have a good reason for not enjoying their presence in your neighborhood.

If you assume this to be the case on the basis of their skin color alone, then you are a bigot.

I will not touch the question of whether or not it is wrong to be "racist" or to be a bigot. But things are what they are, and a person who believes that there are multiple human races is, yes, "racist." And a person who believes that skin color controls or strongly correlates with values and behavior is, yes, a bigot.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

ksinc said:


> Great answer.


Unfortunatly it isn't true.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Kav said:


> I'm at a parttime job last week. The new iranian manager walks up to Walter, the oldest, probably most critical employee in the company. This moron announces, " I have scheduled you off for your racial holiday monday." Walter just sort of stands there open mouthed. I speak up, " I won't be in monday, it's my race too." The 5 other employees caught on, and in a rare moment of cohesiveness announced it was their racial holiday also. This clown, who is ruddier in complexion than all of us, even Walter says " but, you don't look black." I respond, " No, but we're all americans." The small company is now simply closing on monday, and I received my final paycheck friday.


Were you employed by the company or were you contracting through an employment agency? If the latter, I don't blame your ex-boss one bit for letting you go, since it wasn't your place to question his decisions and create problems for his company. But if the former, I say good for you.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> I disagree that's the case in the the North East, especially in regards to
> Italian, Jewish and Polish people.


I did not say it does not happen, I said it is generally considered racist at worst, insular at best. Such as black leaders often referring to the "lily white suburbs" for instance, or the implication that gated communities often have the gates up to keep non-white people out. Or a great example is when some of the Pointes neighborhoods in the Detroit area tried to block off streets leading out of Detriot into their neighborhoods. The hue and cry of "racism" was abundant over this attempt at traffic and crime control.

Funny no one mentions racism when re-entry of whites to urban areas leads to moaning over and dispargement of gentrification. In fact, you even mentioned gentrification specifically in your OP, implying whites usually only come with it. I am sure you did not view this inference as racism, did you? I have seen numerous black leaders, such as Al Sharpton and Charles Rangle, verbalize opposition against the gentrification of Harlem and the re-entry of whites.

It is not my world, I just call it as I see it.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

JP,

this is an interesting question. as somebody who didn't really live here for most of his life, I expected that neighborhoods in the US would be like they are on sitcoms - with a lot of blacks and whites living near by and friendly. I hardly know any african americans, and the ones that I have become friendly with happen to have very "white" backgrounds - married to a white man, or with a white step father, etc. I find that a little strange. 

in the town I live, there are several areas that are "black" - really just a few blocks square each, checkered throught town. when I called an apartment to inquire about renting, the owner, who had a very strong - and I hate to say this this way, but what I would identify as an african american accent - basically told me that I wouldn't like the apartment when she heard my voice, it took me a few questions to understand what she meant, and then she basically said "well you won't like the people who live on the street". and didn't want to show me the apartment. I was a little shocked, but I understood at that point. 

I se your point, JP. I think that it is very important to live in a way that you are comfortable with your nieghbors. I am jsut wondering how the cycle ever changes - how kids get to know white kids and vice versa?


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Neighborhoods*

JP,

I do not see it that way.You should be able to live where you want to. Where you will be comfortable as well.
I dont see it as racist to want to live where you are comfortable and will be happy.
Going forward though will our decisions affect future generations.
I dont know. 
I never looked at the color of a people in a neighborhood.
I guess my upbringing, and life I lived just helped me to be comfortable, anywhere I lived.
Its better than a jungle or a foxhole, I guess!
LOL
Nice day my friend


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

You ask if it racist to want to live among your own race. Since you are moral enough to eschew the use of legislation, manipulation, or intimidation to achieve your goals, I don't really care whether your preference is racist or not. I see no reason to worry myself over the private desires of others.


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## SGladwell (Dec 22, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> The generally accepted answer is that it is okay when non-whites or hispanics want to do it, wrong when whites do.


Ah, yes. We white people are just _soooo_ put upon.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Our town is 45 percent black, 48 percent white, 7 percent assorted other. I would guess this is unusual for a non-urban town in my state. We actually were looking one town over and didn't see anything we wanted to make an offer on, and the real-estate person said let's take a look at this place over here. In doing our due diligence I was looking for crime stats, etc., on the Net and saw the census breakdown. Our only hesitation was in considering whether this might affect resale value, but we really do not think we are going to leave.

Our previous town was heavily Italian-American; there are still many towns here in which one ethnic group will predominate. The next town over from that one has been written about many times as a haven for black/white couples.

I really have not noticed a lot of differences as far as interactions with neighbors.

The distaste for "gentrification" is not always based on race but on economics. The late Jane Jacobs wrote about the North End of Boston, for instance, in which the people being priced out of their neighborhood were Italian-American. We are seeing this now in some mostly white (but ethnic) lower-middle-class towns here that have suddenly decided to try to go upscale and are taxing some people to the point they have to leave, not to mention taking property by eminent domain so the small houses can be bulldozed and replaced with pricey condos.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> I did not say it does not happen, I said it is generally considered racist at worst, insular at best. Such as black leaders often referring to the "lily white suburbs" for instance, or the implication that gated communities often have the gates up to keep non-white people out. Or a great example is when some of the Pointes neighborhoods in the Detroit area tried to block off streets leading out of Detriot into their neighborhoods. The hue and cry of "racism" was abundant over this attempt at traffic and crime control.
> 
> Funny no one mentions racism when re-entry of whites to urban areas leads to moaning over and dispargement of gentrification. In fact, you even mentioned gentrification specifically in your OP, implying whites usually only come with it. I am sure you did not view this inference as racism, did you? I have seen numerous black leaders, such as Al Sharpton and Charles Rangle, verbalize opposition against the gentrification of Harlem and the re-entry of whites.
> 
> It is not my world, I just call it as I see it.


Not sure where your from. But in my experience gentrification largely involves White people. Is it negative or positive? That's a personal thing , but that is the case up here. Let's be honest, its not the norm to see whites moving into Black areas or desiring too. I personally would have also liked Harlem to remain Black, it was major landmark for Black culture, one of the few we have considering our situation and history here. Mandela once called it the capital of the Black world, so its a sensitive place I can see why they were in an uproar. Gentrification there, was one that largely involved Whites. It had nothing to do with racism , just an attempt to preserve a bit of your culture. All of that not withstanding, just because you heard Sharpton and Rangle saying it doesn't mean it was the consensus among any group of people. 
I'm not familiar with the situation in Detroit, the community blocking the roads could have a history of racism for all I know. But nothing you said proves that in general people believe whites who like to live amongst white are racist.

Globetrotter, there are some integrated communities I can't think of many. I think middle class Blacks have many opportunities to mingle with whites. Through camps, sports, hobbies and such. I'm not sure when and where lower class Blacks interact with them. You asked a good question, I'm stomped. I grew up in a integrated neighborhood upper middle class around probably 80% white but went to all Black schools until college. I interacted with white through sports, mainly and in my teens through work. I know you have children do they interact with many Blacks?


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> Unfortunatly it isn't true.


Ummmmm...it kind of is...now, I have kind of a strange perspective on the whole issue of race being of hispanic descent, but being raised by a white family in a predominately white neighborhood for the majority of my childhood ( I also lived in Latin America and Jamaica, as well as the cultural treasure trove that is Philly [but that was as a teenager]), I gained an appreciation for both sides of the coin...As far as segregating communities, I think it's very true that if a minority group occupies a certain neighborhood, and the general consensus among them is that they want to keep it that way (no "outsiders") they are looked upon as celebrating their "rich heritage" or "preserving their culture" or worse yet _***uck*** "keepin it real"_  or some BS like that, but if a white neighborhood doesnt want minorities moving in, they are considered "racist" and "backwards thinking" or whatever...the double standard rears its ugly head again...

I personally see nothing wrong with communities being split up by whatever demographic ranking system that the members so choose (whites & blacks, rich & poor, old & young, whatever) but I think that the key thing is that all of those little sub-communities pay each other the proper respect and realise that the world doesnt revolve aroudn them, they are part of a larger community which must be well taken care of...now that's not to say that integration is a bad thing either, but I can deffinately understand why a black family would want to live among other black familys, a white family would want to live among other white familys, a hispanic---oh you get the point...


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

If I was half the troublemakers my grand, and greatgrandfathers were the business would be burned to the ground. As it is, there is more than one way to clean a persian carpet. It's always bad form to make racial remarks in pharsi when the recipient knows what you just said. I have to wait until tuesday, state and federal offices being closed in observance of Martin Luther King's birthday. I've experienced Crow Jim behavior in the past, figure reading it in this forum should be no suprise.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Ummmmm...it kind of is...now, I have kind of a strange perspective on the whole issue of race being of hispanic descent, but being raised by a white family in a predominately white neighborhood for the majority of my childhood ( I also lived in Latin America and Jamaica, as well as the cultural treasure trove that is Philly [but that was as a teenager]), I gained an appreciation for both sides of the coin...As far as segregating communities, I think it's very true that if a minority group occupies a certain neighborhood, and the general consensus among them is that they want to keep it that way (no "outsiders") they are looked upon as celebrating their "rich heritage" or _***uck*** "keepin it real"_  or some BS like that, but if a white neighborhood doesnt want minorities moving in, they are considered "racist" and "backwards thinking" or whatever...the double standard rears its ugly head again...
> 
> I personally see nothing wrong with communities being split up by whatever demographic ranking system that the members so choose (whites & blacks, rich & poor, old & young, whatever) but I think that the key thing is that all of those little sub-communities pay each other the proper respect and realise that the world doesnt revolve aroudn them, they are part of a larger community which must be well taken care of...now that's not to say that integration is a bad thing either, but I can deffinately understand why a black family would want to live among other black familys, a white family would want to live among other white familys, a hispanic---oh you get the point...


Nope, it's not. Your post lost validity around "keeping it real".


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> Nope, it's not. Your post lost validity around "keeping it real".


That's right...keep those blinders firmly in place...


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> That's right...keep those blinders firmly in place...


I think its best you re read your post. I'm sure you'd come to the same conclusion, it was assinine.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> I think its best you re read your post. I'm sure you'd come to the same conclusion, it was assinine.


maybe...but that's the reality...the double standard is very real...even as a minority I can see that...and IMO it sucks...if you want to talk about real equality, more often than not people will throw that racist label at you so fast it will make your head spin...

Why is it only okay for certain ethnic groups to not allow outsiders when others would be condemned for the very same thing???


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> maybe...but that's the reality...the double standard is very real...even as a minority I can see that...and IMO it sucks...if you want to talk about real equality, more often than not people will throw that racist label at you so fast it will make your head spin..Why is it only okay for certain ethnic groups to not allow outsiders when others would be condemned for the very same thing???


You haven't proved in the slightest that, that is the case. I know it isn't, I've lived around Blacks all my life, never once did I hear whites were racist for wanting to live in a white neighborhood, and I can say I haven't heard on adult home owning Black say "keeping it real" in my life, (actually I'm not sure I've heard the term uttered outside of a rap song). Your opinion is obviously derived from stereotypes.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

jpeirpont,

I believe that your attitude would be considered racist in this day and time. That being said, that specific attitude is (and should be) your right to have and to hold.

If you wanted to move into my neighborhood (which you would not as it is multi-racial) and I didn't want you here because you are black, then I would be a racist. It is no different.

Interesting responses to your post. Now, if I posted a message that stated that I live in a neighborhood that is and had been traditionally all white and I wanted to keep it that way, what would the reaction be here? I'm guessing I would be immediately the scourge of the forums.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

jpeirpont said:


> I know you have children do they interact with many Blacks?


its wierd..... in my sons last school, there were 3 black kids in his class. while they played at school, and all went to each other's birthday parties, one family seemed to only hang out with blacks - they had given very "afro-cnetric" names to the kids and had a swahili vanity plate. one girl's mother was very friendly with my wife, and we had a number of play dates, but the girls father was white, as was one of the mother's grandparents, which led me to believe that they were less "typical" than others, I would guess....
another of my sons best friends was a black girl who was adopted by a white woman. I mention the parents because they are the decision makers at this age, and I have to find it interesting that the black kids that ended up socializing with my son, had white parents, at least in part.

in my son's present school, its a jewish preschool, and there is one black kid in the class (not jewish) and he is one of my son's best friends.

the school my son will go to next year is right across from out house, and my wife has commented how the kids who play in the yard do it in groups of 
whites and blacks.

We made one of our choices about where to live, when we first came to the states, based on diversity - I didn't want to live in an overwhelming white city - more because of the lack of color than because their were few jews. I didn't want my kids to first encourter people of color in university.

2 funny stories - my son asked me, last year, who celebrated kwanza, he knew who celebrated hanuka and who celebrated christmas, he couldn't figure out who celebrated kwanza. so I named the 4 or 5 black kids I knew that he knew, and suggested that they would celebrate kwanza. so he thought and thought for a while, and said "they have a holiday for kids who were with me in school last year, and then were moved to another class this year?" he couldn't figure out what else these kids had in common.

another story - my son was trying to explain to a friend who another friend was, a black girl, in a video of 5 girls dancing. the friend was the only black in the group. so he says "see the girl with the pink bow? the girl next to her is my friend rachel". I interpret this as him simply not recognizing that the fact taht the girl was black was something that could be used to discribe her. I was very happy about that.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Relayer said:


> jpeirpont,
> 
> I believe that your attitude would be considered racist in this day and time. That being said, that specific attitude is (and should be) your right to have and to hold.
> 
> ...


my point exactly...

I mean...I'm not calling anybody a racist because I think most people in this day and age are for the most part above that...but J, you know good and well that if you moved into a white neighborhood and heard echos that you werent wanted there, you'd feel like a victim of racism...I'm not trying to get into a conversation about who has traditionally been more persecuted or the race card or even race in general for that matter...but if you really dont believe that a double standard exists now-a-days...you're blind my friend...


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

I fail to see what is morally wrong with segregation. No one here has provided a sufficient argument. In fact, I see plenty of arguments in support of favouring (economically, politically, culturally) your own children, family, and community over other, alien groups.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Old Brompton said:


> I fail to see what is morally wrong with segregation. No one here has provided a sufficient argument. In fact, I see plenty of arguments in support of favouring (economically, politically, culturally) your own children, family, and community over other, alien groups.


I know what youre saying, and I think that's probably fine, but I must emphasize again, that people still need to respect one another, and the greater community in which all of their sub-communities belong to...other than that, I too dont believe that there is anything intrinsically (sp?) wrong with such a concept...

at the same time, every group (not just select minorities) should be allowed the right to do this without fear of being called racist...


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## Isaac Mickle (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't think you people are talking about race. You are talking about ethnicity or culture or something else.

You can say "I want to live among my people" and not be racist, but it is racist to say it in some way that implies "your people" are essentially different from other people.

Racism is like, "God cursed the black race, that's why they are slaves." Or even, "White people can't dance." It's nonsense to talk like the differences between cultures or neighborhoods were created by some essential genetic or historical difference.

We use "black" and "white" as a shorthand to describe different ways of being in the world. In some towns it makes a lot of sense, but it's still dangerously lazy to talk like it's _the skin color _that explains why one group does one kind of thing on Sunday and another group does another kind of thing on Sunday.

If you can't define "your people" without talking like skin color is what keeps them together, then I think the idea that your people are much alike is a delusion.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Isaac Mickle said:


> I don't think you people are talking about race. You are talking about ethnicity or culture or something else.
> 
> You can say "I want to live among my people" and not be racist, but it is racist to say it in some way that implies "your people" are essentially different from other people.
> 
> If you can't define "your people" without talking like skin color is what keeps them together, then I think the idea that your people are much alike is a delusion.


Exactly...but dont you feel that saying something to the effect of "I dont what white people moving into my predominately black neighborhood" is kind of racist...as there was no mention as to the carachter of said white people, I mean the way I understood it was that he just didnt want them living near him because they were white...


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> my point exactly...
> 
> I mean...I'm not calling anybody a racist because I think most people in this day and age are for the most part above that...but J, you know good and well that if you moved into a white neighborhood and heard echos that you werent wanted there, you'd feel like a victim of racism...I'm not trying to get into a conversation about who has traditionally been more persecuted or the race card or even race in general for that matter...but if you really dont believe that a double standard exists now-a-days...you're blind my friend...


Nope, I just have experience and know more than just Sharpton and stereotypes of "keeping it real".


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Isaac Mickle said:


> I don't think you people are talking about race. You are talking about ethnicity or culture or something else.
> 
> You can say "I want to live among my people" and not be racist, but it is racist to say it in some way that implies "your people" are essentially different from other people.
> 
> ...


I don't live in theory I live in the real world. I'm treated and saw a certain because I'm Black and others for White and so on and so forth.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Isaac Mickle said:


> You can say "I want to live among my people" and not be racist, but it is racist to say it in some way that implies "your people" are essentially different from other people.


This doesn't make any logical sense to me (that you can say one without implying the other).

If "my people" are not "essentially different" from "other people" then why would I 'prefer' to live among "my people"?


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Relayer said:


> jpeirpont,
> 
> I believe that your attitude would be considered racist in this day and time. That being said, that specific attitude is (and should be) your right to have and to hold.
> 
> ...


I hear it all the time personally, they don't say White, but there are ways to say it. I've had this discussion many of times. 
I'm not racist, I like whites in general, have white friends and haven't had many negative interactions with them.
I have specific goals in my life which would be best served by living in a Black neighborhood, I'm pretty traditional so as long as a situation isn't immoral I prefer it to remain the same. That my position on traditionally Black neighborhoods, atleast the middle class ones. The poorer neighborhoods may gain from dispersion so I'm not sure of my position on them.
If I saw that you posted you prefer to live in a White neighborhood I'd assumed you enjoyed White people. If while making that comment you said Blacks are idiots I'd assume you were racist.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> Nope, I just have experience and know more than just Sharpton and stereotypes of "keeping it real".


hmmmm...perhaps you and I think more alike than we'd care to admit at this moment, you seem like you are able to see through this "racist" nonsense, that's good, I may have misjudged the purpose of this entire thing...If you honestly feel the way you do about this subject, then once more I'll say it...I think segregation in-and-of it's self is probably okay, but it needs to be equal across the board, and I think respect for all other groups is second only to respect for the greater community...so...I deffinately know what youre saying...perhaps, your honesty kind of threw me at first, I dont believe you to be a racist, and if you really feel that people of other racial backgrounds (including white) are entitled to have "their own thing" aswell...then by all means...have at...


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Since I'm white, let me ask you; do you not want me living next door to you, or not even in your neighborhood, at all. And why not?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Segregation is way different from one location to another. 

So there is no 1 answer.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey JP, since you apparently *already had an opinion that cannot be changed no matter what someone points out* why the hell did you pose this as a question? Why did you not just say, "This is what I think" instead of actually creating an OP where one would assume you were questioning?

As to the people disagreeing with my observations, it is always the same old crowd that lines up not wanting to deal with reality. I think Gabba said it best that when a minority neighborhood wants to stay minority, they are "preserving heritage". Perfectly put. Just like the difference between "networking" and "the old boys club". There's no difference except that one implies white males, the other does not. The double standard is alive and well.

Either way, I think people should be allowed to do what they want and do not really care. Just treat all self-segregators the same.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Isaac Mickle said:


> I don't think you people are talking about race. You are talking about ethnicity or culture or something else.
> 
> You can say "I want to live among my people" and not be racist, but it is racist to say it in some way that implies "your people" are essentially different from other people.
> 
> ...


IM - sorry, dude, what you are essentially saying is "that isn't an apple you are eating, that is a collection of molucles that is organized together to form the seedpod for a type of vegitation that we, in our laziness, have decided to call an apple". you may be right, but you make no sense what so ever.


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## Isaac Mickle (Nov 28, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Exactly...but dont you feel that saying something to the effect of "I dont what white people moving into my predominately black neighborhood" is kind of racist


Yeah man, absolutely that's racist, because skin color is being used as though it's a reliable sign for all kinds of behavior as if skin color somehow defined those kinds of behavior.


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## Isaac Mickle (Nov 28, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> I don't live in theory I live in the real world. I'm treated and saw a certain because I'm Black and others for White and so on and so forth.


???

If people think you wear certain clothes or go to certain schools or read certain books or eat certain foods or drive on certain streets because _your skin is black_, and because people with black skin are essentially different in all those ways, then those people are racist.

The USA is full of racist people. You can be racist too if you want. It's a free country.

White people do not eat certain food or go to certain schools because their skin is white. I cannot believe we are talking like that's true the night before Martin Luther King day.

I don't know where you live, but it sounds like a place where all the white people are one way and where all the black people are another way. It must make sense to say white and black. Where I live, that's just not true. We got all kinds of white skinned people and all kinds of black skinned people.


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## Isaac Mickle (Nov 28, 2006)

Relayer said:


> This doesn't make any logical sense to me (that you can say one without implying the other).
> 
> If "my people" are not "essentially different" from "other people" then why would I 'prefer' to live among "my people"?


_essentially_ different ... like God made "the White race" out of these ingredients, and God made "the Black race" out of these ingredients.

We put a lot in superficial things. Charger fans might hate Patriot fans and think there is a world of difference between "Charger people" and "Patriot people," but they are both football fans. There's no essential difference. God did not make one group from one batch of clay and another group from another batch of clay. One group does not have one set of genes while another group has another set of genes. No _essential_ difference.

If it sounds like I'm splitting hairs, hop in the time machine and go back to Nazi germany or American Georgia before the Civil War. And listen to how "racist" those people talk.


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## Isaac Mickle (Nov 28, 2006)

globetrotter said:


> IM - sorry, dude, what you are essentially saying is "that isn't an apple you are eating, that is a collection of molucles that is organized together to form the seedpod for a type of vegitation that we, in our laziness, have decided to call an apple". you may be right, but you make no sense what so ever.


That's a terrible analogy.

It's too bad that we don't have other ways of talking about groups of people. In a lot of places, for example, the white people are rich and the black people are poor. The white people do not want to hate the poor because they go to church and the church says, Do not despise the poor--pity them.

Poor people move in next door and those poor people happen to be black. They wear poor clothes, drive poor cars, have a poor dog, and do all these poor things. And all that gets blamed not on them being poor but on them having black skin.

The problem with talking about groups of people as though there are separate "races" of people who see things different and do things different and are destined, by God or Nature, to live apart, is that it totally avoids the real problem and instead creates a whole new set of problems.

To get back to the original question, the non-"racist" thing to do would be to go meet the white people that moved into the neighborhood. Invite them to your house and introduce them to your neighbors. Give them a chance to fit in. Then if they don't fit in and if they change the way everything is done and if they disrespect your values, then you have better things to complain about.

It's not, I don't like these people because they are white skinned, it's I don't like these people because they don't like my mother's cooking. I don't like these people because they don't laugh at my jokes. I don't like these people because they tell their children that my children are stupid. I don't like these people because they wear their pants around their thighs. I don't like these people because they listen to terrible music.

I'm sorry if I'm talking too fancy for some people, and I'm sorry if what I say makes you think I don't live "in reality." But I'm done putting on the clinic about race and racism and the trouble it's been. You all are on your own if this is still not making sense to you, and I'm sorry I won't be back in this thread to further answer questions or clarify things or quote Martin Luther King.

This is a clothes forum after all ...


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Isaac Mickle said:


> That's a terrible analogy.
> 
> ...


sorry you feel that way. I think what you are trying to do is say that for 10,000 years of human history everybody on earth has been wrong about the way that they treated this issue, but now that you are here to help us see it the right way, we can all get moving in the right direction.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Hey JP, since you apparently *already had an opinion that cannot be changed no matter what someone points out* why the hell did you pose this as a question? Why did you not just say, "This is what I think" instead of actually creating an OP where one would assume you were questioning?
> 
> As to the people disagreeing with my observations, it is always the same old crowd that lines up not wanting to deal with reality. I think Gabba said it best that when a minority neighborhood wants to stay minority, they are "preserving heritage". Perfectly put. Just like the difference between "networking" and "the old boys club". There's no difference except that one implies white males, the other does not. The double standard is alive and well.
> 
> Either way, I think people should be allowed to do what they want and do not really care. Just treat all self-segregators the same.


I asked if it was racist. Not if it was a double standard or any of the non sense I hear whined about. I'm not the person who initially caused it to stray. There are big differences between old boys networks that have denied people from making livelihoods and someone who simply wants to live in a neighborhood full of their own race or network with people because the old boys are controlling all the jobs and denying others solely on race. If you believe that networks arise for Blacks simply because they only want Blacks hired, and not a response from being denied jobs, then you haven't been in the real world long enough to speak on this topic. Also I said I saw no issue in White desiring to live amongst themselves so I your point about minorities is misguided. There's a long between denying people employment and deciding to live in a white neighborhood because you like to live amongst whites. I pretty sure most Whites, Blacks and other recognize that.


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## Isaac Mickle (Nov 28, 2006)

That's not what I'm trying to say, globetrotter. Thanks for reading and thanks for the comments though.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Isaac Mickle said:


> ???
> 
> If people think you wear certain clothes or go to certain schools or read certain books or eat certain foods or drive on certain streets because _your skin is black_, and because people with black skin are essentially different in all those ways, then those people are racist.
> 
> ...


As I said, in the U.S, people make assumptions due to race, period. There's no denying it. There for me living as if people don't wouldn't make much sense. I understand your point, i just don't think its applicable to real life.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Relayer said:


> Since I'm white, let me ask you; do you not want me living next door to you, or not even in your neighborhood, at all. And why not?


Do you live in a Black neighborhood? Its not my desire to turn pre-existing neighborhoods Black. I probably wasn't clear, I meant neighborhoods that were traditionally Black and middle Class.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> *I asked if it was racist.*


Sorry for not just answering then. Yes, it as about as racist as you can possibly get. There is no excuse for it. It shows your intolerance of other races and your lack of desire to embrace diversity. It shows you have no desire to internalize the "melting pot" and yet another generation of racial polarization shall be raised.

I think that covers it pretty well.



jpeirpont said:


> Not if it was a double standard or any of the non sense I hear whined about. I'm not the person who initially caused it to stray. There are big differences between old boys networks that have denied people from making livelihoods


Networking, by its very definition, means to create a social/business network that inherently choses its members first, thus excluding non-members. Ergo if you network, you are trying to take work from others. There is no difference between say, the Black Chamber of Commerce and the much disparaged and maligned "old boys network". Each is designed to benefit its members by excluding non-members. It is very interesting to see your racial attacks on "the old boys network."

So pointing out a double standard is whining to you? That tells me all I need to know in this conversation.

Cheers


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> Do you live in a Black neighborhood? Its not my desire to turn pre-existing neighborhoods Black. I probably wasn't clear, I meant neighborhoods that were traditionally Black and middle Class.


As I stated in my first response, I live in a multi-racial neighborhood.

I notice that you did not attempt an answer to the questions I posed.

A simple and honest answer might be enlightening.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Sorry for not just answering then. Yes, it as about as racist as you can possibly get. There is no excuse for it. It shows your intolerance of other races and your lack of desire to embrace diversity. It shows you have no desire to internalize the "melting pot" and yet another generation of racial polarization shall be raised.
> 
> I think that covers it pretty well.
> 
> ...


So not desiring to live in a melting pot is racist? Most things expousing diversity seem a bit racist to me. I'm not sure about the dictionary term for racism, but, racism involves some sort negative, condescending or dismissive view on a different race. I hold none of those feelings. Simply a connection to mine. As I'm sure you do to other Scots. Polarization is here to stay, me living on Canterbury Street isn't effecting it.
What country have you been in? These networks have excluded Blacks soley by race for god knows how long. Black networks haven't done the same thing, they exist because one wasn't allowed a fair chance at employment. There's a big difference. There no double standard because your not comparing like institutions.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> So not desiring to live in a melting pot is racist? Most things expousing diversity seem a bit racist to me. I'm not sure about the dictionary term for racism, but, racism involves some sort negative, condescending or dismissive view on a different race. I hold none of those feelings.


Well then if my answer is definitionally impossible, that would make your question of whether it was racist or not the same, now would it not? That would make the whole thread moot then and a complete waste of time, no?

Also, and I am not trying call the Grammar Police here, but I have to mention it that "you are" is "you're".


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Relayer said:


> As I stated in my first response, I live in a multi-racial neighborhood.
> 
> I notice that you did not attempt an answer to the questions I posed.
> 
> A simple and honest answer might be enlightening.


I probably wouldn't move to a neighborhood you lived in, But I wouldn't move if you moved in next door. I'm going to localize this, because different parts of the U.S might be different. In Greater Hartford Blacks are culturally distinct from Whites. And even if they aren't they have a view on their place in society that's similar to mine in general, one that I've only seen held by Blacks. This is the culture I wish to raise my kids in eventually and is what I desire to live in. It has worked for me, and other I grew up with, I think its the best route for prosperity for my family and the community as a whole.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Well then if my answer is definitionally impossible, that would make your question of whether it was racist or not the same, now would it not? That would make the whole thread moot then and a complete waste of time, no?
> 
> Also, and I am not trying call the Grammar Police here, but I have to mention it that "you are" is "you're".


You can correct grammar as you see fit. I'm stupid and can't spell, or speak, so be it.
I'm more worried about the substance of the post and if its right or wrong. But you might be right maybe I knew what I believed all along and just couldn't articulate it to myself. People have said I was racist before and some have said I'm not, in regards to where I desire to live. This site is more diverse than my circle of friends I posed the question here for that reason. And it actually help, so I offer a sincere thanks.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

JMO, but your attitude is indeed unfortunate. Similar to the attitudes that keep public schools segregated for many years.

But that is certainly your prerogative. Thanks for the honesty.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I just want to drive this home. Here is your question from the original post you started this thread with.



jpeirpont said:


> Saying that, I desire to live in a middle class Black neighborhood.
> Is it racist to desire to live among your race? Is self segregation wrong?


Here is your rebuttal to points of mine you feel are incorrect or have no validity.



jpeirpont said:


> I asked if it was racist.


So then I tell you that yes, wanting to live in a segregated neighborhood is racist. So your answer to that is this:



jpeirpont said:


> So not desiring to live in a melting pot is racist? Most things expousing diversity seem a bit racist to me. I'm not sure about the dictionary term for racism, but, racism involves some sort negative, condescending or dismissive view on a different race.


So I go back to my comment; you have already determined your answer and are just arguing with anyone that says something you do not want to hear.

Edit: You were replying to me while I posted this. Glad to be of service. I have no problem with some forms of racism and creating self segregated living arrangements is one of them.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Relayer said:


> JMO, but your attitude is indeed unfortunate. Similar to the attitudes that keep public schools segregated for many years.
> 
> But that is certainly your prerogative. Thanks for the honesty.


I'm not arrogant enough or experienced enough to say my opinion is surely right. If I'm wrong , hopefully I have to sense to correct it. But, I do think its the best way for the me and those I love, as it has worked for me, my family and my friends.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

:deadhorse-a:

...sorry...

...I've just been waiting for a chance to use that emoticon...


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

My delivery truck broke down one day on 60th in South Central. Several Crips began moving in on me. I drew my revolver and shoved it hard up into my jaw. " Don't anybody move! one step and the ****** gets it! " The Crips froze. Baptist minister began praying with his weathered bible raised midair. A black matron in navy blue dress suit, pearls, gloves and hat gripped her white cotton dressed granddaughter's hands tightly crying " lord Jaazzus hep that poor boy, can't somebody do somthin?' I backed into the decaying liquor store with unchanged flypaper strips and asked for change so I could call a towtruck. Korean owner says " you buy something." I said PULEEZE. Store owner said, " ha, you think this a Michael Douglas cult movie? I bought a coke, THE REAL THING unlike the crack outside. Fortified with sugar and caffeine I remembered the truck had a bad habit of slipping out of the overdrive so neccessary with a heavy load. I walked back out, gun still pressed agaisnt my jaw and forcing myself into the cab yelled "DRIVE HONKY!" I made it safely back to the road rage fillled arteries of my own multi ethnic, effluent community. Tommorow I won't listen to the I HAVE A DREAM speech or watch the parade down MLK BLVD. Hell,l I won't even order any KFC or play lena Horne for fear of diluting the american experience further. I can recall dozens of lost worlds once filled by people, my people that a John Steinbeck or Richard Brautigan would have loved meeting. I'll find somebody to blame, perhaps the many indians in my complex stinking up the evening air with curies and evening ragas by Ravi Shankar.


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

There's absolutely nothing unethical or immoral about wanting to live among individuals of your own race, culture, or faith. In fact, it's perfectly natural-- and GOOD! I'm not sure why this is a subject of debate...


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## The Wife (Feb 4, 2006)

*Kav*, that was _some_ story; great dialogue, too. You have an extremely fertile imagination. Holding yourself up, you beat the Crips to it--brilliant tactic! 

This part really flowed:


> ...my own multi ethnic, effluent community.


 Or, perhaps you meant _affluent_.

Back on-topic: *Pierpont*, everyone has a comfort-zone, and rather than brand your previously stated preference "racist", I interpret it as practicality. Shared heritage and experiences are quite important. Almost everyone, deep down, wants to have a feeling of "belonging". I've seen some people lately whose sense of not being part of some community or heritage screws them up pretty badly.


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

"Is it racist to desire to live among your race?" 

Being racist does not exclusively mean that one feels that one race or another is superior, or that race itself is the cause of differences in people. Racism also encompasses "discrimination or prejudice based on race". Since you are judging these incoming families solely on the basis that they are white, and not based on any other factors, then yes, by definition you are a racist.

"Is self segregation wrong?"

"Wrong" is perhaps the wrong word here. That self-segregation has certain negative consequences cannot be disputed. I understand that often people feel more comfortable around those they are similar to, including those of the same skin color, and that self-segregated communities in some ways allows those groups to maintain their self-identity against the diluting influence of the majority. Especially regarding the black community however, such actions both serve to reinforce racial stereotypes, and make it harder for blacks to integrate themselves into mainstream society. Whether you like it or not, communities in which minorities are of a plurality are likely to be labeled as “ghettos” by mainstream society, as unfortunate as that may be. Instead of fostering interaction between different peoples and thus moving towards the banishment of the entire idea of “race”, self-segregation perpetuates and amplifies the differences between minorities and the rest of society, and is ultimately, in my opinion, self-defeating.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Something Gabba touched on...

People segregate themselves based on all sorts of things besides race. The retired, young couples with children, social class. These are things people consciously or subconsciously look at when choosing where to live. 

The best community I've ever lived in wasn't at all diverse racially (there were a few people who weren't white, this was in a pretty non-diverse part of the UK) but it was a small village with mixed-price housing. Our friends were of all different ages, and we'd find ourselves at a pub on Friday night with a guy who did drywall and a London couple who owned a dotcom who had a second house there, a teacher with four kids and a retired man of 75 and a young woman who was accepted into Cambridge and another who was studying to be a hairdresser and American military people and antiwar vegans. So it was diverse in some ways. We'd disagree about politics and then someone would buy another round.

I think that's healthier than being in a large city and socializing chiefly with a bunch of other journalists or finance people in their late 30s just because you have THAT in common.

Living in a community with other parents who have children in elementary school or other Latino families or retirees doesn't guarantee that you'll have ANYTHING ELSE in common or want to sit around a campfire and sing kumbaya together.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> I'm not arrogant enough or experienced enough to say my opinion is surely right. If I'm wrong , hopefully I have to sense to correct it. But, I do think its the best way for the me and those I love, as it has worked for me, my family and my friends.


JP I don't think you're doing anything wrong. This is supposed to be the country where anything one wants, one can have. I can understand the desire to live with similar people in a similar cultural position if one thinks that is beneficial.

I will never deny that some people benefit from living in diverse communities, but some other people may actually benefit more from living in homogenous communities. The urge to diversify everything is understandable given the past mistreatment of so many minorities, but I personally have no issue with people self-segregating themselves unless, as you say, they are doing so in the same breath as they say awful things about those not included in the group. Forced de-segregation of places that are doing okay as they are is probably just as detrimental as Plessy-esque forced segregation.

If I may ask, since we both reside in the same city and have discussed it before, to which neighborhood you refer. I am presuming it is not the one in which you currently reside if I am recalling where you live correctly. You may PM if you wish...I am still downtown myself.


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## burnedandfrozen (Mar 11, 2004)

I have a friend who is Thai. She has two daughters about 5 and 7. She used to live in an area that is mostly Hispanic. When she informed me that she was moving I asked her why out of curiosity. She told me "Because nobody speaks #%*[email protected] english". She went on to explain that her two girls have no friends because of the language barrier. She said she wanted to move into a white neighborhood so she can take her girls to the park where other kids will play with them.

I've also read that many blacks in LA are not too happy either about the growing Hispanic population and how they feel they are being pushed out of their parts of town. I can't say I blame either. Who likes walking out their front door and seeing another countries flag flying? Remember this is the United States key word being United.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Coolidge24 said:


> JP I don't think you're doing anything wrong. This is supposed to be the country where anything one wants, one can have. I can understand the desire to live with similar people in a similar cultural position if one thinks that is beneficial.
> 
> I will never deny that some people benefit from living in diverse communities, but some other people may actually benefit more from living in homogenous communities. The urge to diversify everything is understandable given the past mistreatment of so many minorities, but I personally have no issue with people self-segregating themselves unless, as you say, they are doing so in the same breath as they say awful things about those not included in the group. Forced de-segregation of places that are doing okay as they are is probably just as detrimental as Plessy-esque forced segregation.
> 
> If I may ask, since we both reside in the same city and have discussed it before, to which neighborhood you refer. I am presuming it is not the one in which you currently reside if I am recalling where you live correctly. You may PM if you wish...I am still downtown myself.


Brother Coolly
It is in the Blue Hills Avenue area. It's a couple of streets ,not exactly a neighborhood, as it has declined a bit. The local Black politicians and business men (those who are from Hartford) live on , Canterbury Street and Ridgefield street, which is where I desire to live.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

You can dice it any way you wish, but the truth of the matter
at the end of the day is,

Having a desire to live "amongst your own" is not racist.

Having a desire to keep all others out is.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> Today, I was driving around a middle class black neighborhood in Hartford. And noticed a white family has moved into a house on the street. I've noticed a few of these families as of late. This area is hardly a case for gentrification so I'm not sure of their motives for living in this neighborhood, but that's besides the point. I was a bit bothered by seeing this tiny influx of white families. I am against segregation by law or by manipulation and intimidation. Saying that, I desire to live in a middle class Black neighborhood.
> Is it racist to desire to live among your race? Is self segregation wrong?
> 
> ( For the record, I am not one who has issues with Whites having the same desires)


Well, there goes your neighborhood. Better sell now before it's too late. ;-)

For what it's worth, it's entirely possible that the White buyers didn't know the ethnic composition of the neighborhood they were buying into. I think the penalty for a real estate agent for discussing that is death by hanging.

I think a person has a right to be comfortable in his home and with his neighbors, to "feel at home." If that means being among your own people, and I think it does, you have that right. Realizing that dream, however, is almost impossible because of the equal housing laws. The only "legal discrimination" is by housing cost. Which makes the promotion of so-called "exclusive communities" a declasse exercise in who is willing to assume the most debt.

Regarding the motivations of the White families in question, did they buy foreclosures? Are they first time homebuyers cashing in on Bush's FHA "American Dream" program? Is the value of the homes in the neighborhood depressed compared to nearby comparable White neighborhoods?

But it really is possible that they didn't know the composition of the neighborhood they were buying into. They might have only seen the homes a couple of times, during the workday if they were moving in from out of town. The laws that address your reference to "segregation by law, or by manipulation or intimidation" have made it impossible for you to seek out the middle class Black neighborhood you desire. I guess the truth is that you can't have it both ways.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Liberty Ship said:


> Well, there goes your neighborhood. Better sell now before it's too late. ;-)
> 
> For what it's worth, it's entirely possible that the White buyers didn't know the ethnic composition of the neighborhood they were buying into. I think the penalty for a real estate agent for discussing that is death by hanging.
> 
> ...


That is almost impossible considering the neighborhood to which Peirpont refers. I was told never to drive up the streets that he names as soon as I moved here.

Hartford is quite territorialized.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Coolidge24 said:


> That is almost impossible considering the neighborhood to which Peirpont refers. I was told never to drive up the streets that he names as soon as I moved here.


Sounds odd. Why?


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

when I called an apartment to inquire about renting, the owner, who had a very strong - and I hate to say this this way, but what I would identify as an african american accent 
------------------------------
How did you know she was American?


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Liberty Ship said:


> Well, there goes your neighborhood. Better sell now before it's too late. ;-)
> 
> For what it's worth, it's entirely possible that the White buyers didn't know the ethnic composition of the neighborhood they were buying into. I think the penalty for a real estate agent for discussing that is death by hanging.
> 
> ...


I have done some inquiring this morning. I've found there always has been a small number of Jewish families in the neighborhood. Doesn't completely explain the new folks but it might be connectted. I do remember seeing a white guy walking two small dogs. 
Coolidge is right, its impossible for one not to know where they were moving. The North End means Black, among other less than desirable things. 
It would be a better move financially for them to move to W.Hartford. I've been following the home sells on the streets I like the few houses that go on the market sell typically between 220,000 - 260,000. W.Hartford has houses in that range and a far better school system. Sorry I'm rambling, I don't know why this is my mind so much, I guess I don't handle change to well.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

whnay. said:


> Sounds odd. Why?


It's surrounded by bad neighborhoods, that even I wouldn't desire to hang out in. I think it's less of a race thing and more of a crime thing , in regards to why they warned Coolidge.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

burnedandfrozen said:


> I have a friend who is Thai. She has two daughters about 5 and 7. She used to live in an area that is mostly Hispanic. When she informed me that she was moving I asked her why out of curiosity. She told me "Because nobody speaks #%*[email protected] english". She went on to explain that her two girls have no friends because of the language barrier. She said she wanted to move into a white neighborhood so she can take her girls to the park where other kids will play with them.
> 
> I've also read that many blacks in LA are not too happy either about the growing Hispanic population and how they feel they are being pushed out of their parts of town. I can't say I blame either. Who likes walking out their front door and seeing another countries flag flying? Remember this is the United States key word being United.


How are they being pushed out? If they dont sell your home.....


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> I did not say it does not happen, I said it is generally considered racist at worst, insular at best. Such as black leaders often referring to the "lily white suburbs" for instance, or the implication that gated communities often have the gates up to keep non-white people out. Or a great example is when some of the Pointes neighborhoods in the Detroit area tried to block off streets leading out of Detriot into their neighborhoods. The hue and cry of "racism" was abundant over this attempt at traffic and crime control.
> 
> Funny no one mentions racism when re-entry of whites to urban areas leads to moaning over and dispargement of gentrification. In fact, you even mentioned gentrification specifically in your OP, implying whites usually only come with it. I am sure you did not view this inference as racism, did you? I have seen numerous black leaders, such as Al Sharpton and Charles Rangle, verbalize opposition against the gentrification of Harlem and the re-entry of whites.
> 
> It is not my world, I just call it as I see it.


Sharton & Rangel have very self serving reason for keeping Harlem Black. They need a ghetto-ized, and permanantly disenfranchised voter base as the majority to maintain their power. Simple as that.

BTW Harlems' gentrification has involved no displacement so far. New development has been on empty or underbuilt lots and re-development has been of abandonned properties. And as someone who grew up as a townie in a wealthy Northeastern resort town, I can attest to the economic opportunity provided to the industrious by big spending newcomers.

The slums and projects of Harlem should be preserved perpetually, why? Dont those people deserve better, whether in Harlem or elsewhere?

Harlem was once virgin forest and native settlements, then Dutchmens farms, then an upper middle class enclave, a black middle class enclave, pockets of Eurpoean immigrants settled there, then a lower socio-ecomic black and hispanic community, and now of the verge of a commercial and residential revitalization. Nothing stays the same forever, nor should, especially not to satisfy crooked politicians and hucksters. Who by the way, are benefitting disproportionally to their constituents from re-vitalization, both under the table and over.

Just my 2 cents
Cheers

PS: At least some of the gentrification of homes in Harlem and Brooklyn has been by upwardly mobile blacks


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> It's surrounded by bad neighborhoods, that even I wouldn't desire to hang out in. I think it's less of a race thing and more of a crime thing , in regards to why they warned Coolidge.


Right. I think JP refers to a particular part of the neighborhood in general that is still good. I was referring more to the upper albany and the bottom of blue hills ave where a perfectly innocent person can easily catch a stray bullet, it seems.

JP from what I understand the nearly the entire metropolitan Jewish population in our area used to live in the North End in the area you describe. So those you encountered are probably remenants. Apparently the entire group took a 2 mile drive to the west cerca 1965-1970 and now live in the neighborhood just to the West of the Hartford Golf Club mansions...ie King Phillip Drive area off 44. Hence the Kosher food market and the synagogue following them there.

What has always stunned me about that region is the vast gulf between mansions on Scarborough Street and, only maybe a block or so to the east over a little railroad bridge, another world...especially provocative when viewed on the satellite image via google earth.


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> Having a desire to live "amongst your own" is not racist.
> 
> Having a desire to keep all others out is.


Wrong. Having a desire to live amongst your own people is perfectly natural and good, and logically the best way to maintain that community is to prevent others from fracturing it. There's absoluately nothing "racist" about wanting to maintain your own family, community, or people.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> Saying that, I desire to live in a middle class Black neighborhood.
> Is it racist to desire to live among your race?
> ( For the record, I am not one who has issues with Whites having the same desires)


In a word, yes.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> You can dice it any way you wish, but the truth of the matter
> at the end of the day is,
> 
> Having a desire to live "amongst your own" is not racist.
> ...


Both impulses are racist.

Acting on them in a way that prevents, discourages, or makes it more difficult for people to obtain housing in a particular location based on their race is both illegal and immoral.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

jackmccullough said:


> Both impulses are racist.
> 
> Acting on them in a way that prevents, discourages, or makes it more difficult for people to obtain housing in a particular location based on their race is both illegal and immoral.


Although I did question my motives originally . After much thought I realized I'm not racist in general, why would I randomly morph into a racist on this one subject. I'm exercising a preference, nothing more. Hyper sensitivity to racism is worse than actually being racist. Let not offend one another, lynch, shoot, rape one another or call each other vulgar racist names. At the same time lets not condemn someone for trying to preserves the existence of a neighborhood, maintain tradition , the character of a neighborhood and provide leadership to those who need it most.

Jack, so I shouldn't move to the neighborhood I like so, someone else can move in?

Brompton, I understand your sentiment, but how would one exclude others from the neighborhood without initiating racist tactics? I don't believe that's possible. If you no longer like the neighborhood make up I'm afraid the only thing a civilized person can do is move or wait and hope.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Coolidge24 said:


> Right. I think JP refers to a particular part of the neighborhood in general that is still good. I was referring more to the upper albany and the bottom of blue hills ave where a perfectly innocent person can easily catch a stray bullet, it seems.
> 
> JP from what I understand the nearly the entire metropolitan Jewish population in our area used to live in the North End in the area you describe. So those you encountered are probably remenants. Apparently the entire group took a 2 mile drive to the west cerca 1965-1970 and now live in the neighborhood just to the West of the Hartford Golf Club mansions...ie King Phillip Drive area off 44. Hence the Kosher food market and the synagogue following them there.
> 
> What has always stunned me about that region is the vast gulf between mansions on Scarborough Street and, only maybe a block or so to the east over a little railroad bridge, another world...especially provocative when viewed on the satellite image via google earth.


As I noted before I went to a Black schools all my life, my mothers desire. I walked from my house across that bridge just about every morning since until 8th grade. The differences are extreme, until your get around the Blue Hills area. Where there are still big differences but not extreme.
Funny thing Canterbury is only 2 minutes away from Scarborough by car, ten minutes by foot.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

jpeirpont said:


> As I noted before I went to a Black schools all my life, my mothers desire..


JP,
I am not sure I understand why. not at all critisizing, this is just something that I know nothing about.

I can understand why somebody would send their kids to a jewish or greek orthodox sschool, for instance - in orer to learn something that isn't tought at public schools. I can understand why a person from a prodominantly black neighborhood would try to send their kids to a "white" school - on the assumption that their may be some level of educaton, or level of education material, that may not be available in the "black" school (a correct or incorrect assumption, I can see the logic behind it). I can think of a few ideas why one would want their kids to go to a black school, but I am not at all convinced that those assumptions make sense.

so, it would be helpful to me if you could explain ow you understand her reasoning.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

globetrotter said:


> JP,
> I am not sure I understand why. not at all critisizing, this is just something that I know nothing about.
> 
> I can understand why somebody would send their kids to a jewish or greek orthodox sschool, for instance - in orer to learn something that isn't tought at public schools. I can understand why a person from a prodominantly black neighborhood would try to send their kids to a "white" school - on the assumption that their may be some level of educaton, or level of education material, that may not be available in the "black" school (a correct or incorrect assumption, I can see the logic behind it). I can think of a few ideas why one would want their kids to go to a black school, but I am not at all convinced that those assumptions make sense.
> ...


The same reason some go to the Jewish and Greek Schools you mention. To keep me connected to my culture and to send me someplace that will teach me about Blacks in the U.S , the West Indies and Africa, aside from the infrequent mentions of MLK, Malcolm and slavery. My girlfriend went to private school all her life and learned very little about Blacks, at school, until college.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

jpeirpont said:


> The same reason some go to the Jewish and Greek Schools you mention. To keep me connected to my culture and to send me someplace that will teach me about Blacks in the U.S , the West Indies and Africa, aside from the infrequent mentions of MLK, Malcolm and slavery. My girlfriend went to private school all her life and learned very little about Blacks, at school, until college.


again, I am asking from curioustiy - but I am assuming that we are talking about public schools with majoirty of black students, right? then, aside from having other black students, wouldn't the curiculum be the same as other schools?

or am I wrong, are their black only private schools? I would have thought that wouldn't be legal.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

globetrotter said:


> again, I am asking from curioustiy - but I am assuming that we are talking about public schools with majoirty of black students, right? then, aside from having other black students, wouldn't the curiculum be the same as other schools?
> 
> or am I wrong, are their black only private schools? I would have thought that wouldn't be legal.


It was a public school. I'm pretty sure the curriculum was specific to my school or atleast the teachers deviated from what was assigned. I have no idea how curriculum was implemented at the time. My friends tell me they learned of Blacks only during Black history month, so the style of education I received doesn't seem to be the norm. I also had a teacher who helped some of the students trace there ancestry back to slave times. Some years 3 of the 4 teachers in my grade were Black and the schools students were uniformly Black no whites or hispanics students at all some years. So I think that influence the extra attention given to things regarding Blacks. This was elementary school. My education in middle school was very different and much worse, I had to plead with my mother to let me remain in that school.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

jpeirpont said:


> It was a public school. I'm pretty sure the curriculum was specific to my school or atleast the teachers deviated from what was assigned. I have no idea how curriculum was implemented at the time. My friends tell me they learned of Blacks only during Black history month, so the style of education I received doesn't seem to be the norm. I also had a teacher who helped some of the students trace there ancestry back to slave times. Some years 3 of the 4 teachers in my grade were Black and the schools students were uniformly Black no whites or hispanics students at all some years. So I think that influence the extra attention given to things regarding Blacks. This was elementary school. My education in middle school was very different and much worse, I had to plead with my mother to let me remain in that school.


thanks, intersting. Very frankly, I find the whole issue of the black/white race issue very interesting.

In Israel, I had a great deal more contact with Arabs that I have with blacks in america (and I use that simply as an example of 2 minorities in different countries). I worked with a few, I served in the army with several, I had several in university. I really thought, from what I had seen in the media, that there was more interaction between blacks and whites in general american life, which hasn't been my experience in the past 3 years.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

https://www.cnn.com/video/player/pl...s/2007/04/07/holmes.self.segregation.town.cnn


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> I was a bit bothered by seeing this tiny influx of white families. I am against segregation by law or by manipulation and intimidation. Saying that, I desire to live in a middle class Black neighborhood.
> Is it racist to desire to live among your race? Is self segregation wrong?
> 
> ( For the record, I am not one who has issues with Whites having the same desires)


Choosing to live in a neighborhood where other people are of the same ethnicity of you (whether it's black, white, brown, etc.) is all right. It's just as good any other reason to move into an area. You being a bit bothered by people of another race moving in is cause for some introspection.

Singling out newcomers for being a different race by shunning them or trying to make them feel unwelcome, etc. is out of bounds.


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