# Anyone seen/planning to see Brokeback Mountain



## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Here in the great Midwest I may never get to see Brokeback Mountain due to some "values" issues. 

Has anyone seen this movie? 

There has been much discussion in the media as to this being a "love story" and not a "gay" movie. As a gay man I would like to see a "gay love story", although from what I've read the ending is not happy.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

How I miss the midwest and its wonderful values!

The smug intolerance, the anti-intellectualism, the proud ignorance of the wider world, the hatred of non-whites, liberals, artists, the gay, the weird, the creative, the different. The fascistic insistence on calibrating every aspect of life to ensure the production of conformist little automatons (this is called "family values").

Anyway,

My wife saw Brokeback Mountain. She found it beautifully shot, intermittently dull, and ultimately very sad.

She also complained it was a little "square"--too earnest and didactic.

She din't say, but I think she was also hoping for more scenes of a shirtless Jake Gyllenhaal.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm planning to see it. I just wish it were playing in more than two theaters in our area so I didn't have to drive all the way into the city.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
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> How I miss the midwest and its wonderful values!
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I haven't seen _BM_ yet, but I have spoken to a few people who have seen it and they agree with Brownshoe's wife in virtually every respect. Ang Lee directed, so it can't be bad; every film Ang makes is worth seeing. Is the film actually being excluded from theaters in the heart of the heart of the country? If so, the irony of this prohibition, given the subject matter of the film, is too rich. Just another day on the home front. Good God Almighty.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

From the Des Moines Register:

We're hearing that Des Moines probably won't get a look at Oscar contender "Brokeback Mountain" until Jan. 13 at the earliest.

While the movie is opening next Friday in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco, it is expanding very slowly. It will add only 16 cities on Dec. 16 - Minneapolis is one of them - and then another 16 on Jan. 6.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/a...51208/ENT04/512080335&SearchID=73229955184459

______________________

Brownshoe:

As a native Iowan, I find your comments about the midwest (at least my own little corner of it) highly inaccurate.

Regards,

Charles


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

What part of the Midwest did you live in? There are ******* areas in Michigan, but there are a lot of people totally unlike what you are describing.

It is interesting that when a ******* is like you describe, they are racist, homophobic and generally unacceptable. When someone liberal does the same thing to an entire region, it is apparently okay.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
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> From the Des Moines Register:
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Well, it's a relief to hear this. Now I can deplore other ironies too rich to believe.

Cheers

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

It occured to me that my comments about the midwest might tick some people off, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

However, I grew up in Kansas, and this was my experience. I could not get out of there soon enough, and have not regretted moving for a second.

I witnessed racism, homophobia, and the persecution of those not conforming to a very narrow set of beliefs and behaviors on a daily basis.

I'm heartened to hear that others had a better experienced.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

There are some parts of the Midwest where the ******* philosophy dominates. However, there are many more where people are not like how you describe.

I appreciate that you were willing to come back and clarify yourself. It's a shame that you had to deal with that kind of backwardness.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
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> It occured to me that my comments about the midwest might tick some people off, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.
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You are much too harsh on your childhood home, as such retrograde madness is scarcely limited to the flatlands and prairies of our imperial republic. Everywhere one travels in this fair and pleasant land, one finds the powers of darkness, wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross, relentlessly on the march. Their name is Legion, for they are many; they know this, and rejoice. Over hill and mountain, across river and stream, eternally vigilant, eternally confused, the heavily armed sons and daughters of H. L.'s Booboisie confront their many enemies and shout at the Devil. Wholesome and hate-filled, home-schooled and faith-healed, the stalwart men and women of Hellfire Nation increase daily. There is no escaping them. From every NASCAR oval and megachurch across the land, from Salem Mass to Salem Ore, from Pittsburgh PA to Pittsburgh CA, from the Columbia to the Rio Grande, from sea to shining sea oâ€™er amber waves of grain, one finds the holy hordes marching, voting, praying, breeding, building prisons and filling graveyards, smoking out welfare cheats and turning out Darwinists, whenever they gather, wherever they gather, they are assured that _this_ time victory will be total, _this_ time none but the righteous shall dwell in Freedomâ€™s Land and Bravery's Home. Look upon them and despair.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Yckmwia, am I to understand that you're on the side of diversity and tolerance?


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## Vecsus (Aug 27, 2005)

I grew up in central Minnesota, not quite as boring as Iowa, not quite as woodsy as Wisconsin. Anyway, I too found people there rather dim and uninspired. My mother once came to visit me when I was stationed in Georgia. One morning she when out for an early walk where she wound up chatting to my neighbor for an hour. She told me about the great conversation she had with her. That is when I told her that the woman she was talking to was one half of an interracial lesbian couple. My mother almost fainted. She didn't take another morning walk for the entire trip. That is how the midwest raised her generation. It will take years for that sort of ignorance to breed itself out. 

All that being said, it does not suprise me that Brokeback Mountain will show on limited screens in certain regions of the country. You can also expect severly limited overseas screenings. Personally, I won't even bother to Netflix it when it's out on DVD. The plot hold no interest at all to me.


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

I must say, I was shocked at how intolerant some seem to feel towards certain locations in the country. Apparently, as I recently heard the Chief of police from San Francisco say, with complete immunity to the irony, some have no tolerance for intolerance. Additionally, some areas of the mid-West are well known for liberal, dare I say it, left wing, orientation. Ann Arbor in Michigan and Champagne-Urbana in Ohio to name two such places.

To the topic: I certainly will not go to the theatre to see this flick. Then again, I haven't been to the theatre in approximately three years so it has no bearing on this movie. I will probably rent the DVD via Netflix when it comes out.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

"it does not suprise me that Brokeback Mountain will show on limited screens in certain regions of the country"

Vecsus, it's showing in only two theaters in the _Seattle_ area, within walking distance of each other. American cities don't get much more liberal than Seattle.


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## Vecsus (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
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> Vecsus, it's showing in only two theaters in the _Seattle_ area, within walking distance of each other. American cities don't get much more liberal than Seattle.


And yet it's already been nominated for an Academy award. Confirmation that there is a serious disconnect between hollywood and the people.

Of course, if you twist the premise to replace the men with women, it would be a blockbuster hit. Ain't America great?


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vecsus_
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It hasn't been nominated for an Academy Award. Nominations aren't announced until 31 January 2006. But hey, who needs facts? Everyone knows Hollywood hates America.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

It _has_ been nominated for seven Golden Globe awards. Prediction: it will get more than one Academy award nomination.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Yckmwia, am I to understand that you're on the side of diversity and tolerance?


Ideally. However, in this world and in this age one can seldom indulge oneâ€™s ideals. Iâ€™m an Irish Catholic, and, as Yeats nicely noted, weâ€™re good haters; hence my footer, taken from the opening pages of Adams' _Education_. It sums up my position rather neatly.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:
> Brownshoe:
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> As a native Iowan, I find your comments about the midwest (at least my own little corner of it) highly inaccurate.
> ...


Bosthit and Brownshoe, here in southern Ohio, I just found out, we won't get the movie until mid January as well. Brownshoe, I laughed when I read you comments - how true - how true! I live in the red heart of a frequently blue state. There are liberal pockets - Yellow Springs Ohio (Antioch College founded by Abolitionists) and my own neighbourhood. Alas the culture war is firmly being won by the ultra right, at least here. So if it was by accident or design that BM isn't shown, or at least not until mid-January there is simply more time to organize protests against it. Am I psychic? No, there just always are anti-liberal this and anti-liberal that protests in my town.

Anyway Brownshoe, thanks for the review, similar to that of frind who live on the coast who can see it anytime they want. (Me jealous, Ohhhhhh Nooooooo)
Cheers


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_
> 
> I must say, I was shocked at how intolerant some seem to feel towards certain locations in the country. Apparently, as I recently heard the Chief of police from San Francisco say, with complete immunity to the irony, some have no tolerance for intolerance. Additionally, some areas of the mid-West are well known for liberal, dare I say it, left wing, orientation. Ann Arbor in Michigan and Champagne-Urbana in Ohio to name two such places.
> 
> To the topic: I certainly will not go to the theatre to see this flick. Then again, I haven't been to the theatre in approximately three years so it has no bearing on this movie. I will probably rent the DVD via Netflix when it comes out.


Champagne-Urbana is in Ill. Home of the Illini.

Ann Arbor (A2 to those who've lived there) is definately far left-wing. Right down to those who make $250,000/yr driving beatup 1970's Volvos producing huge clouds of black smoke with "Save the Earth" bumper stickers. Except for that sort of thing it's a nice place to live, though.

CT

Fabricati diem, pvnc. (loose translation, To Serve and Protect) -- Sign above the door of the City Watch House, Ankh-Morpork.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Hmm.




Focus brass said Monday that it will roll out "Brokeback" on 300-400 screens by Jan. 6, altering its original agenda of putting the film on 250 screens by Jan. 13.

That decision by Focus co-heads James SchamusJames Schamus and David LindeDavid Linde came after the Ang LeeAng Lee-helmed pic -- starring Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal as cowboys who spark a taboo romance while ranching together during the early '60s -- lassoed the No. 8 spot in the top 10 over the weekend from a scant 69 theaters.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

Weird timing:

My sister, a defiant kind of girl, has NPR and Kerry/Edwards bumperstickers on her car.

She must hate America!

She emailed me last night to tell me that, coming back to her car after seeing a movie (King Kong; the midwest is apparently okay with ape/woman relationships), some enterprising patriot had smashed her tail lights and scrawled the charming epithet for homosexuals beginning with an "f" across the offending free speech on her bumper.

Ah, memories...

Anyway, sorry to hijack. Of course there are many excellent cities and people between the coasts. I spent a few very happy years in Lawrence, KS. It's just...

When I got my sister's news I wasn't a bit surprised. And that's sad.

More on topic:

I once met Ang Lee, waiting on line at an Au Bon Pain. We spoke briefly about movies, and he was very charming and friendly.

I admire his willingness to take on wildly different genres, with such beguiling results. Anyone who can make The Ice Storm and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is okay in my book.

Shame about The Hulk, though.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
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> Weird timing:
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Don't forget what may well be Ang's best film: the much overlooked _Ride With the Devil_. I have no idea why this excellent movie flopped so badly. I guess spectacular films about the Missouri Border War just don't have the box office appeal they once did. Well-written and acted, beautifully filmed, _Ride With the Devil_ even featured Spiderman and Jesus (Tobey Mcguire and James Caviezel). It sank like a stone though. Well worth a rental.

NPR and Kerry bumperstickers? Wow! That's pretty radical. Your sister had better tone it down, for everyone's sake.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
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Thanks for the correction, in has been a decade now since I moved out of the area and knew as I typed it that Ohio just didn't seem correct but could not think of the right state.

It is most interesting to see how the US political spectrum has divided and each side seems immune to its own inconsistencies and crimes. For instance, it is easy to abhor someone's sister having her car vandalized, presumably for her bumper stickers. However, it is somewhat harder to pinpoint the exact act of violence (and I hold it as such) when a good professor confesses to not holding the proscribed views and the tenure committee suddenly recieves several comments that he/she is not worthy. Again, it is easy to condemn (at least for me) people throwing rocks at women entering a family planning clinic however it is harder link cause and affect to the "open border" activist when your loved one cannot access a Level 1 Trauma Clinic and dies needlessly due to its closure related to the exhorbitant cost of caring for illegals (this happened in Tucson Arizona last year).

IMO neither party is aces on tolerance, logic, sound economics, and fulfilling their responsibilities to the legal residents of the country. I say "legal residents" as I am an immigrant myself and wanted to include both citizens and those lucky enough to call the US "home"....legally.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
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And Jewel!

Hoo boy...

Very bad poet, but so unbelievably..uh...having trouble coming up with something better than "superfoxy"


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_
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And it is even more tragic when the United States and the instiutions of neo-liberal finance that it controls adopt programs of predatory capital warfare that drive peasants from the land and leave them with little choice but to immigrate illegally to the U.S. Once they arrive here, these despised peons can join the "reserve army of labor" that homegrown capitalists can exploit for profit, and the right-wing media machine can exploit for propaganda. It's a win/win.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_
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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
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Yes, quite. And her performance was quite good in the film. Jeffrey Wright and Mark Ruffalo were also part of the cast. Just a great flick.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> And it is even more tragic when the United States and the instiutions of neo-liberal finance that it controls adopt programs of predatory capital warfare that drive peasants from the land and leave them with little choice but to immigrate illegally to the U.S. Once they arrive here, these despised peons can join the "reserve army of labor" that homegrown capitalists can exploit for profit, and the right-wing media machine can exploit for propaganda. It's a win/win.


Sorry, I can't hear the predatory capital warfare over the giant sucking sound to the south (whatever happened to Ross?). I say this to point out there is always two sides to each topic. Also, if memory serves, Mexico is now one of the world's largest economies. I say this to point out that Mexico is responsible for Mexico, not soley the evil people that populate the power structure of the US.

Lastly, you need to now also create an excuse, no doubt with the US as the antagonist, for the large portion of illegals that are OTMs or "other than Mexicans". Sorry, as an immigrant, I love the US and just as I won't harken to right-wing xenophobia shouts, neither will I listen to the siren call of the US bashers on the left.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_
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> > quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
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So the left are US-bashers? Congratulations, you've drunk the Kool-Aid. It's a triumph for the reactionaries when any criticism of the large corporations, the wealthiest top percentiles, and the rapacious, shortsighed policies of the robber barons' peons in power can be called an attack on the US itself, rather than an attack on those who are prostituting our country and subverting its promises of equality and freedom in the name of their own gains.

-- l'homme-RJ


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

[/quote]So the left are US-bashers? Congratulations, you've drunk the Kool-Aid. It's a triumph for the reactionaries when any criticism of the large corporations, the wealthiest top percentiles, and the rapacious, shortsighed policies of the robber barons' peons in power can be called an attack on the US itself, rather than an attack on those who are prostituting our country and subverting its promises of equality and freedom in the name of their own gains.

-- l'homme-RJ
[/quote]

RJman - I think you just became my hero for the day!!!! I'd sing The Internationale with you but I can't sing - LOL


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_RJman - I think you just became my hero for the day!!!! I'd sing The Internationale with you but I can't sing - LOL


I want nothing to do with that.

-- l'homme-RJ


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
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Sorry if I offended, that was not my intent - it's just so rare and refreshing to hear something so defiantly liberal.


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
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Funny RJ, you did not demur concerning my comments on the right. Hmmm, double standard? Who drank the Kool-Aid I would ask? Why so defensive of the left and so antagonistic to the right?

To point, notice I did not use universal qualifiers. I never said "all on the left" or "all on the right". Some on the right are indeed xenophobic. Some on the left are indeed US bashers. Not all on the left are US bashers but some certainly are. Not all *gasp* on the right are xenophobic. If you wish to deny this, I will not attempt to dissuade you, however I think any objective person would agree to my statements.

This brings to light the very root of the problem with the US political system. If I mention a shortfall of one party, members usually resort to a_ tu quoque_ argument to justify their views. Why can not people admit that neither side is 100% good and neither side is 100% evil? It forces people like myself, an agnostic, pro-abortion, pro-needle exchange, pro-personal responsibility, pro-civil unions, pro-sensible taxation policies, pro-free trade, anti-racist, anti-xenophic (hell I'm an immigrant), anti-class warfare person to just shake my head.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I agree that the extremes on the left and the right are equally abhorrent. 

I entered from the right side in this thread, because I felt a comment made about where I live was unfair.

But, I find both the left and the right to be abhorrent. Both sides spend too much time trying to make their observations fit in with their preconceived prejudices and not enough time trying to see things as they are.

When the truth becomes as important to people as "winning" the argument, maybe we can unite again as a society. Until then - - -


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_Funny RJ, you did not demur concerning my comments on the right. Hmmm, double standard? Who drank the Kool-Aid I would ask? Why so defensive of the left and so antagonistic to the right?


Antagonistic to the right because I do not step in to defend [sic] it from your only rhetorical reference to presumed xenophobia? I have no affirmative duty to defend the right from your sophistry, sir -- and I thought that your side believed in its right to shoot itself in the foot, also known as Libertarianism. Nice try.

In brief, I stepped in to correct what appeared to be your characterization of the left. As to the right, you only qualified "shouts" as possibly xenophobic, implying the existence of non-bigoted mutterings and rumblings on the right -- and in such we can hope.

-- l'homme-RJ


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> 
> I agree that the extremes on the left and the right are equally abhorrent.
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What abysmal tripe. Itâ€™s just a matter of looking at the facts, is it? Well, then, letâ€™s recap: AzChilicat bemoans the presence of hordes of illegal Mexican immigrants who are overburdening the resources that should properly be available to U.S. citizens. (Aside: just because most of these â€œillegalsâ€ have black hair and speak Spanish, this doesnâ€™t mean they are all from Mexico. Many come from Guatemala, Hondouras, El Salvador and Columbia - everywhere, in fact that the local government is dominated by neoliberal elites.) I replied that this state of affairs is the result of a deliberate policy of predatory economic warfare pursued by the United States and its agents. AzChilicat dismisses this contention out of hand, claiming that he is deafened by a â€œgiant sucking sound to the south.â€ AzChilicat then proceeds to announce, quite amazingly, that Mexico is responsible for Mexico. No kidding? Well, this will certainly come as news to, say, Iran, Guatemala, Viet Nam, Chile, Cuba, Nicaragua Venezuela, Iraq, and other countries around the globe that have rebelled against the state of vassalage assigned to them by the U.S., and have tried to take responsibility for their own people. Thatâ€™s not part of the game, as these nations have learned to their sorrow. The literature on this subject is vast, and is ably represented in recent works by Andrew Bacevich, on the right, and David Harvey, on the left. Shall we look at these facts? Shall we consider these truths? Hell no. Weâ€™ll just denounce anyone who raises such unpleasant matters, and then whine about how we all just canâ€™t get along. In other words, love it or leave it. Nonsense. I have no interest at all in getting along with flag-waving patriots who canâ€™t make the elementary effort of applying the same standard of conduct to the actions of the United States, as the United States applies to the actions of other nations. Until such happy time as this basic principle of moral reasoning becomes a staple of mainstream discourse - itâ€™s on.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Your ridiculously vehement post proves my point.

Your needlessly superior tone enhances it.

Whatever.


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

My, I've wandered into quite the viper's nest I see.

RJman, I don't have "a side". That is my point sir. Further, it is now sophistry to attempt even handedness and criticize both the left and the right? I see.

Yckmia, the most positive thing I can say about your post is that I hope you are purposively misquoting me. I specifically broadened illegals as including other than Mexicans. I was the only one to do it until you have now, when you attempt to paint the picture as if I focused directly on Mexicans. Such shoddy rhetoric. I never quantified the universe as "US citizens" only, in fact I went to some effort to specifically state "legal US residents" sharing with all that I am in fact myself, an immigrant. The "giant sucking sound" I referenced was an allusion to Ross Perot's neo-con stance concerning free trade and the shipping of "US jobs" to Mexico and was to present an opposing view (not necessarily mine, I am certainly not a neo-con). If you fail to understand one of my allusions in the future, please ask for a footnote. Straw man re: the other countries you reference. Ad hoc away my friend.

I find it most interesting that someone that stated he comes from the right agrees with me in my attempts at stating neither side holds the moral high ground yet I am acidicly attacked from the left, the supposed viewpoint of tolerance and diversity. It certainly should make one pause and ponder self-given labels.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_
> RJman, I don't have "a side". That is my point sir. Further, it is now sophistry to attempt even handedness and criticize both the left and the right? I see.
> I find it most interesting that someone that stated he comes from the right agrees with me in my attempts at stating neither side holds the moral high ground yet I am acidicly attacked from the left, the supposed viewpoint of tolerance and diversity. It certainly should make one pause and ponder self-given labels.


Ah, you're sounding quite "fair and balanced" today...

-- l'homme-RJ


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I came from the right for that issue because I felt my homeland was being insulted.

There are plenty of crackpots on the right, too. Rush Limbaugh makes roll my eyes and turn the channel the instant I hear him.

Our system is not set up for a third party to arise in the center. We can only hope that the people on the far reaches realise that strength and prosperity comes with consensus, not division and start to look to come together.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Most dismaying is the cynicism displayed by both your Jesse Jackson types and your Rush Limbaugh types. They will slant anything to prove their point, no matter how illogical the slanting sounds.


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
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Please sir, deny the fact that someone that identified themselves as having a right leaning agreed with me that neither side is 100% correct nor 100% wrong yet I have been attacked by left leaning folks. Please, just deal with the facts and leave references to the spinout zone aside.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Just to get back to the original topic of "Brokeback Mountain" and inject a bit of levity into this acrimonious political discussion (which is why I don't discourse on my political views in these fora--probably everybody would hate me!), I'll just say that I don't think a movie about cowboys discovering their gay natures would be my cup of tea. HOWEVER, if they had altered the story to have a couple of hot and sexy cowGIRLS discovering the joys of a little "sisterly love" up on that lonely ol' mountain, I'd have been the first in line to see it! [}][}][}]


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

Originally posted by AzChilicat



> quote:Yckmia, the most positive thing I can say about your post is that I hope you are purposively misquoting me. I specifically broadened illegals as including other than Mexicans. I was the only one to do it until you have now, when you attempt to paint the picture as if I focused directly on Mexicans. Such shoddy rhetoric.


You should mind your own rhetoric. If the "illegals" you were refering to in your initial post on the matter were not meant to be understood as Mexicans, why did you introduce Mexico into your reply post and contrast illegal immigrants from that country with non-Mexican "illegals" for whom I was to "create an excuse" for their illegal immigration (a point I briefly addressed in my aside)? Or are you suggesting that the "illegals" that so overwhelmed the Tucson trauma system included a large number of illegal immigrants from Canada, Europe, Africa, and Southeast Asia?



> quote:The "giant sucking sound" I referenced was an allusion to Ross Perot's neo-con stance concerning free trade and the shipping of "US jobs" to Mexico and was to present an opposing view (not necessarily mine, I am certainly not a neo-con)


I presumed that the "giant sucking sound" you alluded to was American job loss, but I had no idea you were quoting Perot - even "Ross" didn't give it away; to such depths of obscurity has the man sunk, at least to my mind. However, this allusion is hardly "an opposing view" to the one I advanced: loss of American jobs and immiseration of Latin American peasants are two sides of the same neo-liberal coin. If you can "hear" one, you can "hear" the other.

As for my "straw men": in this instance you evidently fail to grasp my point. Rather than repeat it, I'll again refer to the recent works of Bacevich or Harvey, especially the later: his exposition of the current state of affairs is a model of precise clarity.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## AzChilicat (Dec 18, 2005)

Yckmwia, you have strayed so far from reality that I shall refrain from further replies. As I can tell you are somewhat of a last word freak, I shall let you have it. Any objective reader can see who has attempted balance and who has misquoted, been partisan, and committed sophistry.

Cheers.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by AzChilicat_
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Saying neither side is 100% correct nor 100% wrong is like saying the sky is blue. The error is in assuming that the evils of the left and right have to balance out. So of course the right is going to agree with you--they have far more to gain in this formulation.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Anyone know if there's any pudding in Bareback Mountain?

I fear that Anne Hathaway is wasted therein...

-- l'homme-RJ


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> Anyone know if there's any pudding in Bareback Mountain?
> 
> ...


Check her out in "Havoc"

Good Night Nurse!


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> (King Kong; the midwest is apparently okay with ape/woman relationships.


My newspaper quoted someone comparing the two films exactly that way, but all I could think of is that if they wanted to make a really honest film about cowboys' sex lives, it would probably involve cattle, and then the PETA folks would be picketing.

Brownshoe, you may think you have fled the Midwest for a more enlightened place, but when I moved to Manhattan from California in 1993, I was shocked by the overt racism, as opposed to the more covert racism I had gotten used to during a 12-year absence from the Northeast. It was almost as if some reasonably well-educated people didn't know it was wrong to think that way and even worse to talk that way. It was jarring. I was sharing an apartment with two black people my first year in the city (just before moving in with the woman who became my wife), and some of the comments I heard ... even from a few people I had considered friends ... made me realize NYC is not quite as sophisticated and worldly as its reputation.

I saw the, um, coming attractions for Brokeback Mountain a few weeks ago when we saw Good Night And Good Luck. I think I'll pass. I was OK with paying to see Philadelphia, and I'm all for people being able to do what they want (or what they must, for that matter), but I don't necessarily want to watch them do it.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

I saw _Brokeback Mountain_ this afternoon. Good, but not great. Lavishly filmed, with many spectacular â€œcomposedâ€ scenes that are typical of Ang Leeâ€™s work, and well-acted, particularly by Heath Ledger. I found Ledgerâ€™s tight-lipped performance annoying at first, but over the course of the film it worked very well. However, _BM_ is hardly ground-breaking and I canâ€™t fathom how anyone might find it controversial or offensive. The film's theme of illicit passion thwarted by pitiless convention was threadbare in the days of Heloise and Abelard, and only its transposition to The High Country and the rugged world of cowpokes and combine salesmen gives the hackneyed tale any life at all. The pace is slow, but the sense of impending tragedy, if not doom, prevents it from descending to the glacial. Some of the plot contrivances are pretty darn contrived - Ennis _never_ thought to bring home any fish? Man, that's _whipped_! But these are quibbles. _BM_ is certainly worth seeing - unless one has an unshakeable aversion to three-hanky tear-jerkers. In that case, one had better stay home. As a final matter, I can report that no pudding is consumed in the entire film. However, in one scene Ennis is shown sitting in a greasy spoon, desolate and desperate with solitude and longing as he picks at what appears to be a custard-filled pastry. Close, but no cigar.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Lets take inventory.We won't see the movie in the midwest, have to watch our southern flank for illegals and Hollywood, Petri dish for the great communicator himself Ronnie Reagan hates America. I feel like an acrobat moonlighting as a Feng Shui designer navigating this thread.This film has an obvious target audience, and after almost getting killed taking a young family member to see Harry Potter i'll pass. I pretty much gave up on the moving picture phenomenon when they started watering down my Doctor Pepper and the popcorn came with artificial butter. You have to buy DVDs to see Bugs Bunny anymore and they went and tore down my local drive in. If they had a classic Yee-Haw! scene like Red River I'd reconsider.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I was talking about this movie with my riding partner at 5A.M. feeding the horses. We concluded the western is America's King Arthur and buddy movies have certain formulae. Ford and Fonda did THE ROUNDERS, Newman and Redford BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID to name just a couple. The great american myth has been pretty well stretched from BLAZING SADDLES to THE ELECTRIC HORSEMAN. I suppose a gay theme was inevitable. If you tell your story within the national psyche it gains credence in the familiar and thereby understanding. So I'll go see the thing, with a girl ( or two) so nobody thinks I'm gay like it matters. If you haven't rode a horse you can't really judge them after all.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> I was talking about this movie with my riding partner at 5A.M. feeding the horses. We concluded the western is America's King Arthur and buddy movies have certain formulae. Ford and Fonda did THE ROUNDERS, Newman and Redford BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID to name just a couple. The great american myth has been pretty well stretched from BLAZING SADDLES to THE ELECTRIC HORSEMAN. I suppose a gay theme was inevitable. If you tell your story within the national psyche it gains credence in the familiar and thereby understanding. So I'll go see the thing, with a girl ( or two) so nobody thinks I'm gay like it matters. If you haven't rode a horse you can't really judge them after all.


I'd highly recommend seeing _Brokeback_ with a woman - wife, girlfriend, casual friend, what have you. It's basically a "chick flick" - I mean, Ennis and Jack fall in _love_. For these two wranglers, Orsino's words are especially apt:

Come hither, boy: if ever thou shalt love,
In the sweet pangs of it remember me;
For such as I am all true lovers are,
Unstaid and skittish in all motions else,
Save in the constant image of the creature
That is beloved. . .

Jack and Ennis are a couple of beloved creatures, by God. The nature of their relationship is miles from the story Gore Vidal used to relate about a friend of his, a high-brow New Yorker, who picked up a hitch-hiking ranch hand while driving through Wyoming. The New Yorker made his move, and the cow poke was soon in the saddle. Afterwards, the crest-fallen high-brow was wracked with remorse and shame. The ranch hand shook his head and said: "You guys from back East do this because you're sick; we do it because we're horny." None of that kind of casual thing for Jack and Ennis - well, not for Ennis anyway. Two truer hearts never beat.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

What I won't do is wear any of my western togs. This horsey girl invited me to see Tombstone and we went straight from the ranch. I'm sitting there, self conscious allready in my wranglers, riding boots, pearl snap button shirt and chapeau. I think I hear jingle bob spurs coming down the aisle. I says to my date, "Date, I hear jingle bob spurs" Just then two members of the Single Action Shooting Society come walking down the aisle replete in full regalia including angora wool chaps[xx(] I sort of slithered low in my seat like a buzzworm and cupped my hand over my eyes like blinders.[:I]


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

It is interesting that in every discussion and review of Brokeback Mountain I have seen the romantic protagonists are invariably described as "cowboys." Yet in film weren't they herding sheep? Doesn't his make them SHEEPmen--something, at least according to the conventions of Western fiction and cinema, the true old-time cowpuncher detested and despised!

Kav, if you see this, I'd appreciate your commentary.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> It is interesting that in every discussion and review of Brokeback Mountain I have seen the romantic protagonists are invariably described as "cowboys." Yet in film weren't they herding sheep? Doesn't his make them SHEEPmen--something, at least according to the conventions of Western fiction and cinema, the true old-time cowpuncher detested and despised!
> 
> Kav, if you see this, I'd appreciate your commentary.


Well, they're herding sheep when Cupid fires his bolt, but Jack is a bullrider in off-brand rodeos until he marries, and Ennis spends his adult life as a working buckaroo, so calling them cowboys is not stretching the truth very far. One of the film's virtues is its evocation of the rural poverty and hardship that Ennis's family suffers. He can't be too selective about the work that comes his way: sheep, cows, bulls, whatever. It's a hard life.

"Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." Henry Adams


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

So why is it that when people criticize some of our government's policies that they are "US Bashers?" And why is it that the characterization "US Bashers" is used so often against the left? I doubt very much that one political party loves this country more than the other. Since we are talking about movies, in "Good Night, Good Luck," it was shown how similar ad hominem attacks were made against opponents by Joseph McCarthy and his supporters. Great movie! I do agree that the extremes in both parties can be pretty awful. I find plenty to disagree with from both parties during political conventions, when red meat for both extremes is in large supply.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

'Cowboy' was a imported title taken from rural England. Buckaroo is anglicized vaquero and in Arizona they were called punchers. There was a traditional hostility between sheepmen and cattlemen on the open range. However in real life the bigger estates often held both. Cowboys did sometime herd sheep, though it was considered a lowering of self esteem. Some of those guys would saddle up just to collect the mail within walking distance. In another classic western, Lonely are the Brave, Kirk Douglas' character has been reduced to sheepherding during hard times. The character of Jack Burns is one of my favourites. Any reader of Edward Abbey can trace his appearances in many of his novels, increasingly ghostlike, rumoured to be a fiction and always slipping around the trail's bend ahead of you.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> Some of those guys would saddle up just to collect the mail within walking distance.


I do that. Why walk when I can ride?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Or write letters when you can ride over and palaver


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> How I miss the midwest and its wonderful values!
> 
> ...


You might want to talk to someone about your proclivity for stereotyping a diverse group of people with such a broad brush.

BTW NYC all my life. The home of doctrinaire thinking and intolerance of diverse ideas.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> It occured to me that my comments about the midwest might tick some people off, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.
> 
> ...


That happens just about everyplace. It's just that you can insulate yourself more in a dense urban environment.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> Weird timing:
> 
> ...


No sympathy, I have seen and experienced the abuse and intolerance directed at conservatives in NYC. BTW a conservative is simply someone who beleives in limited government, low taxation, a strong defense, and a generally hands off approach to social matter, up to certain bounderies. The behavior you describe are simply human failings.

As far as the movie, I'll probably go see it if my Kerry voting wife wants to, but she doesnt seem to exited. She says she's tired of (some) gays always getting in her face with their lifestyle and politics. It does make me wonder how many people who prefer same sex relationships seem to adopt the same doctrinaire set of ideas and viciously respond to those who may not agree.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by cufflink44_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your reading far more in to this than I wrote. We havent seen the movie yet so I have no idea how in or out these characters are. I think she may just perceive the overall subject matter of the film as "in your face". I'll be happy to report back both our views when and if we see it.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Literide, I'm surprised that a Kerry voter would be "tired of (some) gays always getting in her face with their lifestyle and politics." I understood that to be the complaint of conservative Republicans. Are not Democrats usually tolerant, if not openly supportive, of gay lifestyles and politics?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

When I attended the Nader rally in los Angeles three groups met us outside; the Corvair Car Club in a party mood, Gore environmentalists who got humiliated by moi over his stock in Occidental petroleum and the U'wa indian issue and the log Cabin Republicans. They didn't get in my face after watching the Gore people leave. An anti abortion group were praying loudly for them while the Eisenhower dressed cabinites were outshouting them.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

"No sympathy, I have seen and experienced the abuse and intolerance directed at conservatives in NYC."

Terrible, just terrible. Ted Nugent should record some kind of benefit single. I like that "No Sympathy." Would look snappy on a t-shirt.

Am I reading this right: you have no sympathy for someone criminally attacked on the basis of an expressed political affiliation because you have seen people on the other side of the fence similarly abused? Does that really make sense? I'd feel bad for anyone on the receiving end of that kind of hateful, moronic violence. But maybe I'm painting with that darn old wide brush again.


"BTW a conservative is simply someone who beleives in ...a generally hands off approach to social matter, up to certain bounderies"

Oooooo....kaayyyy....

For the record, I don't dislike convservatives. My anecdote about my sister was meant to illustrate a certain attitude prevalent in my home region that holds non-conformists are to be ridiculed and punished. I doubt these meat-heads subscribe to the National Review.


"It does make me wonder how many people who prefer same sex relationships seem to adopt the same doctrinaire set of ideas and viciously respond to those who may not agree."


Yes, it's quite a mystery. Can't imagine why gay folks might feel a little defensive these days. I'll have to ponder on that.



In all seriousness, Literide, happy new year and best wishes. All in good fun. We're not going to agree on some points, clearly. Take some more shots if you want, this is the most fun I've had all night. I'm pathetically posting this on New Year's Day, shortly after midnight--I'm home visiting my family and everyone fell asleep two hours ago.

I thought about going out to a bar, but I'm not really in the mood to get beaten up in a parking lot by four guys wearing mesh feed-company promotional caps.

Peace,

This little Brownshoe is longin' to stray


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## Curator (Aug 4, 2005)

Saw the film yesterday. I'm a huge fan of E. Annie Proulx and I thought that Ang Lee did a great job of capturing her lyrical descriptive technique, with the soaring shots of Wyoming. Jake Gyllenhal was excellent and Ledger did as good a job as could be expected overcoming his accent.


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

Saw this last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. At no time did I feel it was slow - luckily, because my seat was incredibly uncomfortable and I would have really suffered if it had dragged.

Rather, I found it refreshingly restrained. It would have been easy to treat this material in a heavy-handed way. Only at the very end, with the sweeping music, did I feel any buttons were being pushed too hard.

By the way, I find it quite telling that a thread about a film with this 'subject matter' should be the venue for one of the more bilious exchanges seen on this forum. Also that as always, the most hateful comments came from those who haven't seen the film.


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## queueball (Jun 16, 2005)

Gents - Live and let live.


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:Ideally. However, in this world and in this age one can seldom indulge oneâ€™s ideals. Iâ€™m an Irish Catholic, and, as Yeats nicely noted, weâ€™re good haters; hence my footer, taken from the opening pages of Adams' Education. It sums up my position rather neatly.


What James Joyce wrote:

_"Ireland is the ols sow that eats her own farrow"
_

As for the film, I think it may break down the common stereotypes of who gay people are, and redefine certain social ramifications, whic in numerous guises, is social progress. However, I have not seen it and probably will not see it as I have not been to a cinema for about 5 years.

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by LabelKing_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Great hatred, little room/maimed us at the start . . . "

Why have you avoided the cinema for five years? Is it a general loathing for the current state of film, or do you just wait for the DVD/Cable release? I hope you haven't avoided films altogether because there have been some fine movies released in the past five years. _BM_ is perhaps best seen on the (relatively) big screen, as the combination of Ang Lee's compositional technique, Roberto Prieto's cinematography, and the Wyoming landscape results in a simply beautiful film.

"If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal." Emma Goldman


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I generally dislike cinemas with their stuffiness and uncomfortable seating along with possible patron disturbances.

Actually there have been a few compelling films this year such as Capote, The White Countess, etc. that I would like to see.

Usuaully I wait until the DVDs come in.

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## Preston (Aug 8, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> How I miss the midwest and its wonderful values!
> 
> ...


 WTF? And you're the model of tolerance? Do you actually KNOW anyone who's proud of his ignorance? who is ANTI-intellectual? 
And dear God, please don't teach your family to have values. This would just ruin everything.

There is just as much smug intolerance on the Left. I dare say, more. And the hate is much more shrill, loud, carrying picket signs, keying cars, disrupting otherwise peaceful gatherings. The hatred of Bush, the military, conservatives, Christians, business, the normal, the straight, the law-abiding.

The irony of this entire quote of yours is just too rich to overlook.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Preston_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I should just let this drop but...

"And you're the model of tolerance?"

I'm not a model of anything, nor do I claim to be. I admit to intolerance of racists, homophobes, and censorious philistines. Probably a character flaw of mine.

"Do you actually KNOW anyone who's proud of his ignorance?"

Oh, yes. Did you miss that bit about Kansas tossing evolution out of the school curriculum? You'll hear a lot of this sort of thing during arguments in these parts: "Well, maybe you read that somewhere, all I know is how I was raised (said proudly)!"

"who is ANTI-intellectual?"

See above

"And dear God, please don't teach your family to have values. This would just ruin everything."

I'm all for teaching values...kindness, fairness, honesty, curiosity, responsibility, etc.

The "family values" I refer to (you'll notice I put the phrase in quotes) is a nasty little code term, used by some, for a host of creepy and repressed stuff I won't go into.

"There is just as much smug intolerance on the Left."

Probably. So what? Who's talking about the Left, or the Right, for that matter? (b/t/w, do you really have a problem with picket signs?!)

I was talking about the midwest, which, believe it or not, was germane to the original post. While I certainly overstated the matter for rhetorical effect, my experience growing up all over the region was this: If you do not fall in line with an extremely narrow set of beliefs and behaviors, which include: the maniacal worship of sports, a conspicuous devotion to Christianity, adherence to gender roles out of a Dick and Jane primer, reflexive xenophobia, unquestioning support of the president and his policies, a suspicious disregard for the arts, etc., you'd better keep it to yourself, or your life will be made miserable.

Obviously, this is a gross over-simplification and over-generalization, but this is my memory of the place--I'm subjective, biased, and resentful as hell.

Never claimed otherwise.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

I was talking about the midwest, which, believe it or not, was germane to the original post. While I certainly overstated the matter for rhetorical effect, my experience growing up all over the region was this: If you do not fall in line with an extremely narrow set of beliefs and behaviors, which include: the maniacal worship of sports, a conspicuous devotion to Christianity, adherence to gender roles out of a Dick and Jane primer, reflexive xenophobia, unquestioning support of the president and his policies, a suspicious disregard for the arts, etc., you'd better keep it to yourself, or your life will be made miserable.

Obviously, this is a gross over-simplification and over-generalization, but this is my memory of the place--I'm subjective, biased, and resentful as hell.

Never claimed otherwise.

[/quote]

Brownshoe,
Sometimes I feel exactly the same way, which is in part, why I started this thread.

Talk about frustrated. The movie opened this past weekend and has been sold out at both locations everyday and for every showing. So I guess there are more open-minded people than one suspects - or at least more curious.

I hope to see the movie this weekend when I will have time to stand in line for hours. But d*mn it - I WILL see this movie.


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by Preston_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is "normal" and "straight?"

*"In truth, I am not altogether wrong to consider dandyism a form of religion."

Charles Baudelaire*


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## hopkins_student (Jun 25, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by hopkins_student_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## KCMan (Nov 11, 2005)

Brownshoe,

I know you're probably tired of this subject, but I just read this thread and I have to say that all your comments and generalizations about Kansas really pi$%#d me off. I am Indonesian and I grew up in the middle of KS and I had to join the Army and go to a different state to actually be discriminated against because of my skin color. We are not ignorant, as you say, just because we are not ready to accept all of your "progressive" garbage as the way everyone should live. We should not be chastized as a bunch of dumb ******** just because we are mostly Christians (so is 83% of the country by the way ). It sounds to me like you are intolerant of anyone who doesn't think the way you do. You are incorrect about Kansas schools; the board did not "throw out" evolution, they just voted to cast some doubt on it. I see nothing wrong with that since, after all, it is a THEORY, not proven fact. Also, did you not notice that we have a lefty for governer? There must be some smart people like you that live here after all.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by KCMan_
> 
> Brownshoe,
> 
> I know you're probably tired of this subject, but I just read this thread and I have to say that all your comments and generalizations about Kansas really pi$%#d me off. I am Indonesian and I grew up in the middle of KS and I had to join the Army and go to a different state to actually be discriminated against because of my skin color. We are not ignorant, as you say, just because we are not ready to accept all of your "progressive" garbage as the way everyone should live. We should not be chastized as a bunch of dumb ******** just because we are mostly Christians (so is 83% of the country by the way ). It sounds to me like you are intolerant of anyone who doesn't think the way you do. You are incorrect about Kansas schools; the board did not "throw out" evolution, they just voted to cast some doubt on it. I see nothing wrong with that since, after all, it is a THEORY, not proven fact. Also, did you not notice that we have a lefty for governer? There must be some smart people like you that live here after all.


Jeez, I really ticked a lot of people off.

Let me say, again, that my remarks are one man's opinion, based on many, many real and painful experiences and a profound feeling of alienation that persists to this day.

I am sincerely sorry to have offended you. I'm happy you had a better time there.

For the record, I don't think Kansans are "a bunch of dumb ******** because they are Christians." I don't think that Christians are dumb, or that Kansans are dumb in general. That rejecting evolution thing doesn't help their reputation, though.

My description was not meant as a political manifesto or substantive work of sociology or call to arms. I was just miserable growing up there, for the reasons stated, which, in my experience, were absolutely true and pervasive and stifling.

I must go now, as I'm late for my "We Hate America" meeting, and Al Franken is a real stickler for punctuality, and I don't want to wind up with the "Never thought I'd miss Nixon" placard with the bent corners again.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> I must go now, as I'm late for my "We Hate America" meeting, and Al Franken is a real stickler for punctuality, and I don't want to wind up with the "Never thought I'd miss Nixon" placard with the bent corners again.


LOL - Dude, you crack me up!!!


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## Mr. Checks (Dec 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by KCMan_
> 
> Brownshoe,
> 
> I know you're probably tired of this subject, but I just read this thread and I have to say that all your comments and generalizations about Kansas really pi$%#d me off. I am Indonesian and I grew up in the middle of KS and I had to join the Army and go to a different state to actually be discriminated against because of my skin color. We are not ignorant, as you say, just because we are not ready to accept all of your "progressive" garbage as the way everyone should live. We should not be chastized as a bunch of dumb ******** just because we are mostly Christians (so is 83% of the country by the way ). It sounds to me like you are intolerant of anyone who doesn't think the way you do. You are incorrect about Kansas schools; the board did not "throw out" evolution, they just voted to cast some doubt on it. I see nothing wrong with that since, after all, it is a THEORY, not proven fact. Also, did you not notice that we have a lefty for governer? There must be some smart people like you that live here after all.


She's hardly a "lefty," and was only elected because of a split between the establishment right and the religious right.
The right still rules Kansas, but it's splintering.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, M! You know where I'm coming from.

Sorry for turning this thing into a bloodbath.

Lesson learned: what one might say among friends is not necessarily appropriate for this kind of public forum.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Well after all this time I finally was able to see the movie. It is still selling out every day and every time slot. Infact the theater where it is being shown has pulled Capote so that Brokeback is showing in two theaters. 

As regards the movie itself, I have to agree with all comments regarding how beautiful it is, but I have liked Ang Lee's work for a long time. The story itself seems as folks have mentioned: a classic love tragedy. OK, so while it is two guys, I don't think it is a "gay" tragedy. It seems to be a tragedy for two guys who happen to be gay, not because they are gay. 

A decent movie and for once I felt the money I spent was not wasted. Don't see what all the broohaha is about, but then I've never seen cowboys as holding any sort of sacred place in society, or at least any more sacred than anyone else.

Thanks for everyone's input and contributions to this thread, much appreciated.


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## JohnnyVegas (Nov 17, 2005)

To answer the question that starts this thread, yes and finally yes.

It was definitely a well-done film; great acting, good story, pulled at one's heartstrings, and my girlfriend got to swoon over those two on screen. I went into the movie thinking it would be a somewhat modern take on films like "Easy Rider" and "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" since the topic is quite controversial, and I feel it was exactly that. It may not be as good as those films (to me, at least), but I would highly recommend it.

You may return to your argument.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

Staying away from the argument...saw the movie this past weekend. GF really liked it, I thought it was OK. The scenery was really beautiful and I was really glad there was so little sex. I guess now we can wait to see if it wins anything at the Globes and/or the Oscars.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> 
> Don't forget what may well be Ang's best film: the much overlooked _Ride With the Devil_. I have no idea why this excellent movie flopped so badly. I guess spectacular films about the Missouri Border War just don't have the box office appeal they once did. Well-written and acted, beautifully filmed, _Ride With the Devil_ even featured Spiderman and Jesus (Tobey Mcguire and James Caviezel). It sank like a stone though. Well worth a rental.


_Ride With the Devil_ is an excellent movie. I own the DVD.


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