# How important is fully canvassed suit construction?



## josepidal (Jul 24, 2005)

Article:


Old thread:


How important, exactly, is fully canvassed suit construction? Just how bad does a well done fused suit look in comparison?

I know it's important, obviously, but at what point should you shell out for it?

After canvassing the tailors in my country, I'm convinced that not a single one of them makes fully canvassed suits, although I was happy enough to find two tailors who actually did two fittings.

The best and most expensive in the country charges about $130 plus the cost of materials to make a sport coat, and I'm pretty convinced they can produce something that fits well. And this is the only tailor in the country that stocks bolts of Scabal and Dormeul.

I'm in my mid-twenties, just began working as a lawyer last January, and really need at least a blazer and a suit for formal occasions (especially where the native formal dress wouldn't cut it). A wonderful forum member even sold me two bolts for this purpose, one of rough Scabal and one of T&S 120s in a navy birdseye.

The advice of a number of very sensible people here is to find time to drop by Hong Kong and go straight to Chan (and Jantzen). However, I'm wondering if that's something I should do at this point in my life, and I don't think it's financially prudent. Basically, going to a client call or dinner with a Chan suit would make me better dressed than everyone on my firm letterhead, and I was thinking that at best, I could just go with what's available then go have three "real" suits made a couple of years later, when my finances and physique settle.

Thoughts, especially from people similarly aged?

(Alternately, I was thinking of investing in a test run and showing the results to the forum. If so, I was wondering if I should use the bolt of Scabal for this test run, or purchase the fabric from the local tailor for about $120.)


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

Fusing has advanced quite a bit over the years. In my opinion, those who can tell the major difference are the wearers of the garment, and those members of society who represent the kind of sartorial knowledge found on AAAC. That would make it a very small minority of people who could tell the difference.

I wear Southwick suits now, which are a hybrid of fusing and 1/2 canvas. I used to wear Oxxfords, which represent the pinnacle of construction. No one, has ever approached, or mentioned to me which garment was fused or fully canvassed. I have been complimented by knowledgeable people while wearing both garments. However, I think the most important thing to remember is not fused/canvas, but fit. Who cares if the suit is fully canvassed if it is not properly tailored? Who cares if it is fully canvassed, it you have not chosen to accessorize properly? Most of the compliments I have received, especially from females, has been on the accessories I have chosen, not the suit. I believe they could tell that the garments were well made, but it was the package/presentation that mattered.

The best dressed man in my neighborhood wears half canvassed HSM Gold Trumpeter suits. This gentleman looks simply smashing, yet wears entire ensembles that cost less than one of my old Oxxfords. I am just beginning to reach the point where I am "wearing my clothes" rather than the other way around.

I realize I gave a long winded answer, and apologize. None of the above was meant to chastize or knock anyone's viewpoint.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Having a locally made suit certainly isn't cost prohibitive, so why don't you try one--with a locally acquired fabric--and see what you think. If that suit meets with your needs then you can have more made. If it does not then little harm is done, and it's almost certainly the case that you could use the suit in some situations, at least enough to get your money's worth out of it.


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## BoX (Mar 29, 2006)

sweetbooness2 said:


> I am just beginning to reach the point where I am "wearing my clothes" rather than the other way around.


Sweetbooness2, what do you mean by this? Please explain.

BoX


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

I went through a long phase where I was caught up in what brand suit/shoe/tie etc. I was wearing. Therefore, I went out into the world "modeling" my clothes rather than wearing them as an extension of who I am. As I have aged, and gotten into my mid forties, I have largely left this habit behind, and find that I am much better dressed now, even though the clothes I purchase are usually not nearly as costly.


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## BoX (Mar 29, 2006)

sweetbooness2 said:


> I went through a long phase where I was caught up in what brand suit/shoe/tie etc. I was wearing. Therefore, I went out into the world "modeling" my clothes rather than wearing them as an extension of who I am. As I have aged, and gotten into my mid forties, I have largely left this habit behind, and find that I am much better dressed now, even though the clothes I purchase are usually not nearly as costly.


Thank you, I understand now.

I think I can relate to this a bit. At 37, I am just starting to rebuild my wardrobe from khaki pants and polo shirt as my daily attire to, sport coats, trousers, a tie, nice shoes, etc. At first I was very motivated by brand name, thinking if its brand X it must be great, regardless. I am starting to move away from that as I start to apprieciate the importance of good fit, quality materials and consturction, and an honest evalutation of what looks good on me. I think part of the problem in my case is that growing up in the 80s having that pony or alligator on your chest was very important to look good and its hard to unlearn that.


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## briiian13 (Oct 24, 2005)

i believe that a fused suit will not dry clean as well as a canvassed. i heard that over several dry cleans, the fused suit will not be the same.

also, canvassed suits wear well, they drape and flow with your movements, better than a fused. 

also, canvassed has more handiwork, so anything more time consuming will entail a higher premium.

i overheard somewhere that if you paid $1000 for a suit, you either got RIPPED OFF, or got an AWESOME DEAL.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

Dry cleaning may cause bubbles in the suit. Once the bubbles are in they don't come out. While I prever canvassed suits, I have several that are fused. You can tell the difference after a few months.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

briiian13 said:


> i believe that a fused suit will not dry clean as well as a canvassed. i heard that over several dry cleans, the fused suit will not be the same.
> 
> also, canvassed suits wear well, they drape and flow with your movements, better than a fused.
> 
> ...


As for fusing going to hell in a few dry cleanings, I think that depends largely on the fusing and the dry cleaners. I have an inexpensive Nordstrom's blazer that I bought sometime in 1992 or early 1993 (can't remember which). I have given that garment enormous use. I have no idea how often it has gone to the dry cleaner's, but certainly many, many times. It is still an attractive, serviceable garment--no trace of bubbling or anything else beyond getting a bit threadbare right at the cuffs. In fact, I shall probably wear it this evening. I typically wear it to work a couple of times a week.

No, it doesn't have the lightness and perfection of fit as my Chan blazers. It is not as attractive on me as my Chan blazers, but I am still a long way from donating it to the homeless. In fact, if my canvassed Chan blazers hold up that well with the passing of years, they may just see me out!

I also have the fused navy suit in which I was married in 1994. I haven't used it nearly as hard as that blazer, but it has seen a fair amount of use, and i certainly have no plans to retire it. It seems as good as when we tied the knot. (Wish I could say the same about myself!)

For all the disdain for fusing in these fora, I think the matter is overblown.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

I strongly prefer fully canvassed suits because of the soft look and feel (basically all the reasons given by briiian13). Given your circumstances (early in career, in firm and country where fully canvassed jackets are not worn that often, etc.), however, Josepidal, I doubt that it will make much of a difference to others. If you don't feel that it's now financially prudent and there are no other factors that you feel weigh in favor of going with a better garment, then there's no reason to do so. Early in my career most of my suits were fully canvassed because there are so many discount stores here in the USA and I could buy these suits without breaking the bank. I probably wouldn't have bought fully canvassed suits at the time were it not for those low prices. If I were just starting in my career now, given the current pricing of suits, I would probably get mostly 1/2 canvassed garments (you still get that nice, soft roll in the lapel).


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

briiian13 said:


> i believe that a fused suit will not dry clean as well as a canvassed. i heard that over several dry cleans, the fused suit will not be the same.


I have heard that too. Yet, I still have the first suit purchased with my own money. I bought it in 1991 for about $300 in a mall at a place that sold only suits-I do not recall the name of the store, perhaps Cambridge something or other, it was in R.I. where I went to school). The suit brand is Cricketeer. The suit is certianly fused and it has been dry cleaned way too many times.

The lapel is still flat (no curling up) and there are no other signs of oddness due to the glue. About two years ago I took the suit in to a tailor and he re-altered it (I think he took out the padding too) and it fits and looks fine-it's not one of my favorite suits at this point, but I still wear it now and then in a pinch.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

One word:

'Essential'.


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## CHC (Jul 16, 2005)

I agree with most everyone that fit is really number one, followed by overall presentation/ coordination, and third on the list, quality. Canvassed will indeed last longer, and maybe provide a better drape and feel on your body, but in general, a good fitting fused suit will get the job done for all intents and purposes. 

In regards to feeling softer and more flowing, I don't think this is necessarily true. I have a Ralph Lauren suit that is totally fused, yet the front quarters of it feel very soft and light. I also have a Samuelsohn that is fully canvassed, but since the wool is so tough and the canvas is so thick, it almost behaves like a fused suit. The advantage of course, is that the Samuelsohn has more handwork, and will last much much longer due to material and construction quality. A further point on this note is comfort, as well. While the Ralph Lauren moves well, and may be more physically comfortable, the Samuelsohn has me convinced of it's quality. The suit seems to hug me and fit better the more I wear it, whereas the opposite is true for the fused coat. I also feel more mental comfort in the canvassed one because I am wearing a garment made with more pride than the Lauren, and the suit can take abuse very well. 

Again, however, fit is really the number one thing. If you know the difference, it's worth getting a canvassed coat, but if not, most people (including yourself) could never tell the difference. And a fused bespoke suit will always fit and look better than a canvassed that is two sizes too large. Give the local tailor a shot. If it's really that bad, or like wearing a bullet proof vest or something, go offshore and step up the quality. 

That's my opinion, anyway, hope the suit to be turns out well.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

CHC said:


> I agree with most everyone that fit is really number one, followed by overall presentation/ coordination, and third on the list, quality. Canvassed will indeed last longer, and maybe provide a better drape and feel on your body, but in general, a good fitting fused suit will get the job done for all intents and purposes.
> 
> In regards to feeling softer and more flowing, I don't think this is necessarily true. I have a Ralph Lauren suit that is totally fused, yet the front quarters of it feel very soft and light. I also have a Samuelsohn that is fully canvassed, but since the wool is so tough and the canvas is so thick, it almost behaves like a fused suit. The advantage of course, is that the Samuelsohn has more handwork, and will last much much longer due to material and construction quality. A further point on this note is comfort, as well. While the Ralph Lauren moves well, and may be more physically comfortable, the Samuelsohn has me convinced of it's quality. The suit seems to hug me and fit better the more I wear it, whereas the opposite is true for the fused coat. I also feel more mental comfort in the canvassed one because I am wearing a garment made with more pride than the Lauren, and the suit can take abuse very well.
> 
> ...


How do you separate your number two, presentation, from your number three? Although I agree that advantages of canvassing are greater with nicer fabric and that RL Polo makes a nice (perhaps the nicest) fused suit jacket, almost any decent fabric will look better if it doesn't have anything glued to the back of it.


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

I don't think its difficult to separate two from three. Southwick makes a partially fused garment, as do many manufacturers in order to remain competitive. Is it an Oxxford....no. Is it a quality qarment.....yes. I have seen too many fully canvassed suits from high end manufacturers that suffered from lack of attention to details.
For instance, in a local men's store of some repute, there are fully canvassed suits from an Italian suit manufacturer/fabric mill without pattern matching, costing well over $1,300.00. I would feel much more comfortable in one of my mtm garments with its hybrid manufacture AND pattern matching than those fully canvassed garments.


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## CHC (Jul 16, 2005)

smr said:


> How do you separate your number two, presentation, from your number three? Although I agree that advantages of canvassing are greater with nicer fabric and that RL Polo makes a nice (perhaps the nicest) fused suit jacket, almost any decent fabric will look better if it doesn't have anything glued to the back of it.


Well, what I meant by "presentation" was a number of things. Namely, the outfit itself. A nice blend of patterns and colors that all compliment each other, as well as the wearer, but are still framed by a fused suit, will look better than an ill-fitting canvassed suit with a clashing shirt and tie that are weakly thrown together.

And I do also agree that hey, you _are_ going to be better off with both a canvassed suit _and_ a well put together ensemble. However, not everyone can access all the "ingredients", primarily the suit. Our case in point is the original poster. I think that a guy who is doing the best with what he has will outdo the guy who knows what quality is, just not how to wear it well.

Obviously, if a fused and a canvassed suit are both cut to the same pattern out of the same fabric, the canvassed one will take the cake, no question. All I meant to say is that a good fit and a nicely coordinated outfit can remedy low construction quality more than you'd initially think.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Unfortunately it is far more complicated than just fused or not.
For all the reasons above and then a few none aesthetic ones too.
It is not just canvass or glue, but how the canvass is made too.
There are badly done canvassed jackets just as they are decently done fused jackets.

Part of the task of a good canvass is absorb sweat, then, air out well and keep its shape and be odor free. 
A fused jacket can not do this as well by the very fact it is glued into place.

A fused jacket does not breath in the same way a well canvassed suit does.
This means you run a touch hotter all day long.
As your body heat runs up a notch, so does humidity, and your shirts look like $#@ quicker! 
(And you don't want Alex seeing your shirts looking like that!)

In a perfect world, you would never take your jacket off and you come home looking as dapper as the moment you left the house!

But reality says otherwise and a well canvassed suit will glide through the day in a better fashion than a fused. A well canvassed suit will mold to your frame in a similar fashion as a good shoe.

The very wise, young and lovely AAAC member VS has a signature that reads something along the line of:

"Buy the best, and you will only cry once"


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> Part of the task of a good canvass is absorb sweat, then, air out well and keep its shape and be odor free.
> A fused jacket can not do this as well by the very fact it is glued into place.
> 
> A fused jacket does not breath in the same way a well canvassed suit does.
> ...


Interesting point, Zegnamtl!


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Josepidal, I'm going to address the broader issue here first, then return to your specific situation at the end. Some of what I say below may not apply to you, but if you would, bear with me, because I think the core concepts are still relevant.

I'm a staunch proponent of the canvassed suit. But I'll set aside my construction-based arguments to raise a question of practicality: Outside of an emergency situation, why buy a fully fused suit at retail when canvassed suits of a variety of makes and styles can be had for $700 or less regularly, and often for under $400? This doesn't even take into account eBay, where canvassed suits can be had secondhand for less than $200 and often for less than $100.

To me, a fused suit is a sign of shortcuts taken. Compromises made. They might be light, they might hold up decently, but ultimately, why plunk down money that could buy a better product for the same price?

Partly canvassed suits are more of a gray area, of course. There, the partial canvassing at least suggests better quality construction. I often recommend Polo blue label, for example. But I certainly consider them less desirable than fully canvassed suits. Canvassing simply makes for a better product.

Sometimes, of course, there will be exceptions. Perhaps an eBay cheapie just happens to catch your fancy. Maybe a fused suit just looks too good on you to pass up. Perhaps you want an inexpensive beater for bad weather or travel. Whatever. I don't think fused suits are inherently evil, just not smart investments at retail. (And the poorly made ones _are_ inherently evil; part of the problem is that the people most likely to buy them are those who haven't learned to recognize better from bad.)

Now on to your situation, Josepidal. I don't know how much access you have to places such as STP, so much of what I wrote earlier may be irrelevant. But let's think about your comments about fiscal prudence. How much money would you save by having a fused suit made locally? If it's a very large amount, and if your funds are very limited, perhaps it makes sense. But if this is not the case, it strikes me as silly to pay out good money if you know you're simply going to want to toss the suits in a few years.

Think about your evolution when it came to shoes. You went to Lobb and EG very quickly. Had you gone out and bought several pairs of Kenneth Cole shoes at retail, because they looked good and seemed decent enough at the time, would you wear them now? If you have fused suits made, do you think you'll really want them in the future? You're committing your money, time and nice cloth to this project. Is it worth it?

Also, you express concern about not wanting to outdress others. But this seems a bit silly. Why invest in having clothing tailored specifically for you if this is the case?

Sometimes, of course, the bottom line is the bottom line. If a fused suit is all you can afford right now, that may be all there is to your decision.

Just some things to think about.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

CHC- Please never call a fuse coat bespoke tailored. Maybe tailored or custom.

Fused and bespoke tailored never goes together.


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## josepidal (Jul 24, 2005)

Thanks for all the helpful comments. 

About Doc's comment, might it be right to say that despite the lower costs of tailoring here in Southeast Asia, you might get a better deal by hunting up fully canvassed RTW suits in US discount stores?


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

DocHolliday said:


> I'm a staunch proponent of the canvassed suit. But I'll set aside my construction-based arguments to raise a question of practicality: Outside of an emergency situation, why buy a fully fused suit at retail when canvassed suits of a variety of makes and styles can be had for $700 or less regularly, and often for under $400? This doesn't even take into account eBay, where canvassed suits can be had secondhand for less than $200 and often for less than $100.


Has there been a shopping guide thread for where to take advantage of such prices? If not, it would be great if we had one. Perhaps including strategies (when sales are, good ways to search, etc.) as well as sources.


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## CHC (Jul 16, 2005)

WA said:


> CHC- Please never call a fuse coat bespoke tailored. Maybe tailored or custom.
> 
> Fused and bespoke tailored never goes together.


Well I didn't say _good_ bespoke! But if a pattern is made for the customer specifically and the suit is cut and sewed to those measurements, but good cloth and cutting unfortunately have canvas _fused_ on, it can technically be "fused bespoke".

Don't get me wrong, though. I think the idea is something of an abomination to the idea of bespoke. It's just if it's literally the only thing available in the whole country (in JosePidal's case), then I think that it is workable and can look great if worn well, just not an ideal option.


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## retronotmetro (Jun 19, 2004)

josepidal said:


> About Doc's comment, might it be right to say that despite the lower costs of tailoring here in Southeast Asia, you might get a better deal by hunting up fully canvassed RTW suits in US discount stores?


Part of answering that would depend on how much you would spend in SEA, and how well the local tailor cuts a suit. I have some fused suits but mostly canvassed. If I was on a tighter budget I would not hesitate to wear more (if not all) fused suits, especially if they were well altered to fit me.

Another issue is whether you have a local alterations tailor who can do a good job on suits you might round up in the US. No sense in having someone butcher a good suit.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

*terms*



WA said:


> CHC- Please never call a fuse coat bespoke tailored. Maybe tailored or custom.
> 
> Fused and bespoke tailored never goes together.


please, custom is the american term for bespoke which is an english term.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

josepidal said:


> Thanks for all the helpful comments.
> 
> About Doc's comment, might it be right to say that despite the lower costs of tailoring here in Southeast Asia, you might get a better deal by hunting up fully canvassed RTW suits in US discount stores?


You noted above that the cost for you to have a suit made is $130 plus the cost of materials. I don't know how much you'd be paying for materials, but if you have some time to shop here, you could find them for approximately $600 or less if you had some time to shop (you'd want to check Last Call, NM; Off Fifth, Saks 5th; and Hickey Freeman outlets stores, just to name a few, and all can be found at the Woodbury Common outlets in NY State). As noted, you should check Sierra Trading Post's prices for fully canvassed suit brands, if they have anything in your size. Check to see how much their suits by Gianluca Isaia cost, if they have any right now. There's also a coupon for 20% off in the deals and steals section of this site. With the discounts (sale that ends tonight, plust the coupon), here's a GI suit that could be had for less than $700: Not very much inventory left at this point, however, due in part to this sale that they've been running.

One compromise might be to go with 1/2 canvassed suits, as I suggested earlier. You might check to see if they have any Southwick 1/2 canvassed suits on STP.


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## MarkusH (Dec 10, 2004)

josepidal said:


> Article:
> 
> Old thread:
> 
> ...


Jose, it is not about looks. It is about comfort.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

a tailor said:


> please, custom is the american term for bespoke which is an english term.


To my understanding the word tailor started with pad-stitching, so pad-stitching can be called tailor-stitching. So, when pad-stitching begun the sewing world divided into tailors (pad-stitchers) and whatever the other was.

Bespoke is an English word that described a certain type of tailoring, that to my knowlege, was broadly used across Western Europe.

So, your saying the Americans decided to use the word Custom instead of Bespoke for the same product.

And then there are alterations tailors that really aren't tailors- no pad-stitching.

So, what would be a name for hand-made fused? At LL they are saying, erroneously, that bespoke is personal pattern, when there really is more to it than that for bespoke or custom tailored. Since fuse removes pad-stitching- it can't be called tailored. I guess it could be called bespoke garment or custom garment, but not bespoke tailored garment or custom tailored garment.


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## CHC (Jul 16, 2005)

WA said:


> To my understanding the word tailor started with pad-stitching, so pad-stitching can be called tailor-stitching. So, when pad-stitching begun the sewing world divided into tailors (pad-stitchers) and whatever the other was.
> 
> Bespoke is an English word that described a certain type of tailoring, that to my knowlege, was broadly used across Western Europe.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to start an argument or get off topic here, but I've never heard that definition of "tailor" before, and even if that is the origin, it's not still true today. A tailor is anyone who works with a needle and thread, and uses them to make or change clothing. The question of whether pad-stitching is involved in this clothing is not really relevant.

Bepsoke _can_ be fused, as the accepted definition of "bespoke" is a garment made to the wearer's specifications and cut to a unique pattern based on said specifications. I could, theoretically, go into a renowned Savile Row shop (the bespoke of all bespoke, unarguably) and have a pattern made up for me, then have a fused suit assembled from this pattern. The fused garment would, of course, be of worse quality than "normal" bespoke, but it would not be any _less _bespoke.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

CHC said:


> I'm not trying to start an argument or get off topic here, but I've never heard that definition of "tailor" before, and even if that is the origin, it's not still true today. A tailor is anyone who works with a needle and thread, and uses them to make or change clothing. The question of whether pad-stitching is involved in this clothing is not really relevant.
> 
> Bepsoke _can_ be fused, as the accepted definition of "bespoke" is a garment made to the wearer's specifications and cut to a unique pattern based on said specifications. I could, theoretically, go into a renowned Savile Row shop (the bespoke of all bespoke, unarguably) and have a pattern made up for me, then have a fused suit assembled from this pattern. The fused garment would, of course, be of worse quality than "normal" bespoke, but it would not be any _less _bespoke.


No argument. Just two different backgrounds, where neither of us knows it all. We come here to chat about our ideas and learn.

I think your background comes from the buyers side, and mine comes mostly from the makers side (thought limited). So, each person can only write about what they have been taught or believe.

If you went to each custom and bespoke tailor around the world and asked them if fused is ok in a coat or jacket, in place of pad-stitching, I think most would say no, even on Savile Row. While you say some would do it on Savile Row- it would be nice if you would ask them if they call it tailored, because, I wouldn't call it tailored, even if I made it- simply because standards and definitions need to be kept- at least by the makers. One tailor writing to me about pressing- 'indeed, no part in a suit is ever pressed flat. Except in confection, where a huge machine with flat paws just flattens the lapels unto a dummy - yuck'. It would be very interesting if somebody went out and did a survey asking the tailors what separates true tailoring from fake.

God must weeps sometimes when he hears salepeople telling customers what tailoring is.


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## CHC (Jul 16, 2005)

WA, I agree that if you asked most tailors if fusing was OK, the general concensus would be "no". I also know that no Savile Row firm with any dignity whatsoever would actually _make_ the fused suit, I was just using it as a hypothetical example. I meant that you could make a fused suit from a bespoke pattern and it'll still be bespoke.

I'm just saying that even a fused suit can be salvaged in terms of looks, it's just not ideal.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

*custom/bespoke*



WA said:


> CHC- Please never call a fuse coat bespoke tailored. Maybe tailored or custom. ~please !!!
> 
> Fused and bespoke tailored never goes together.


fused and custom tailored never go togther.[/quote]

"bespoke" is the english translation of the american word"custom".

SORRY did not remember that i already responded earlier.


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

A jacket with a full canvas construction is the way to go if possible.
Are they so superior to fused?
My opinion is no.
This may seem strange to some coming from a bespoke tailor, the answer is this.
Fusing and modern garment production have come a LONG way from the early days of fused garments that felt like you were wearing body armour. I spent the first 14 years of my career working for my father in the wholesale 'trade' and during that time we made garments for the high street and world famous design houses.
Our production methods really only varied with the internal construction of the garments, ie fused and canvassed. We made a fabulous fused garment, soft, truly soft fronts with the 'buttery' feel. This is achieved by using high grade fusing, very expensive, combined with a chest canvas of the softest grade.
Yes, you will always lose some of the natural drape quality of the fabric with fusible, but, the top grade fusibles are lighter down the front from the chest down than any canvas and very soft, looking like they are canvassed. 
To canvas a jacket by hand is a labour of love, very hard to do well and this is reflected in the price for bespoke, combined with all the other hand work and finishing involved to achieve a quality product.
The wearer that really knows his onions can tell the difference. There is a difference to the feel when wearing, that cannot be denied, but it is not so vast from the quality fused as you would think.
I think it was J Libourel who has mentioned a fused jacket he has had for years, this is not suprising, or uncommon. Fusing when applied correctly, with heat and pressure, will withstand hundreds of dry cleaning trips.
Clothing is as much about how it makes you feel and look, if the budget permits, bespoke is king. 
If the choices are, average tailoring or good fused? I would go good fused.
I have a very brief outline of the differences on my website, under 'services', I would not offer it if it was vastly inferior.
www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

interesting, and very enlightening, mr. merrion.

so if canvassing is not superior to a good fusing, then why would canvassing be the "way to go if possible?"

also, can a non-tailor see the difference between a good fusing and a mediocre one?


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

acidicboy said:


> interesting, and very enlightening, mr. merrion.
> 
> so if canvassing is not superior to a good fusing, then why would canvassing be the "way to go if possible?"
> 
> also, can a non-tailor see the difference between a good fusing and a mediocre one?


Canvas IS the better choice if you can afford it. It creates a soft jacket, fluid, moulded to the body, natural. It is traditional and tradition is similar to experience, you can not buy it. It should be preserved and I am doing my best to preserve it. The bespoke experience is at the pinnacle of excellence, as such any difference, even slightly, the absolute best quality should be given to the customer. That is canvas, full hand padded canvas.

My opinion is based on my experience within the wholesale trade, making fused and canvas jackets and I hope is a fair reflection.

My argument is there is a difference, but, it is not as defined as some say, both have their merits, when done well. To simply dismiss all fusing as completely inferior is untrue.

No, in answer to the second question, in my opinion.

www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

thanks for clearing it up for me, sir.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

des merrion said:


> Fusing and modern garment production have come a LONG way from the early days of fused garments that felt like you were wearing body armour.


FWIW, that's my sense as well, as someone with a wardrobe featuring a mixture of fused, fully canvassed, and some half-canvased garments. Years ago, I would occasionally see one of my fused suits develop the dreaded chest and/or lapel bubbling (often cited as a cardinal defect of fusing) that necessitated a trip to the local Salvation Army donation center with the afflicted garment, but that has not happened to a fused suit of mine in at least a decade and a half.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

I saw a blazer with bubbled lapel for sale in a J. Crew only a few months ago, so the problem isn't entirely extinct. Seems like you'd find out there was a problem only when it was too late.

The trouble with fusing, to me, is that for the price of good fusing, I could get good canvas.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Random comments.

1) At least one Savile Row house made fused suits for years before going back to canvas. 

2) Custom is a word mis-used most of the time in the United States, by people who are selling made to measure clothes. I heard it again this past Sunday at Malouf's, a relatively respected clothier out side of San Francisco. 

I went in for an Edward Green trunk show. A pleasant young man mentioned that they also offer "custom" Brioni and other brands. I asked if he meant made to measure and he said yes. 

3) WA states that "At LL they are saying, erroneously, that bespoke is personal pattern, when there really is more to it than that for bespoke or custom tailored." In response, I believe I know MTM suppliers who will do anything and everything having to do with suit-making EXCEPT make a pattern for the individual prior to cutting the cloth. The pattern is the only step that, to my knowledge and others whom I respect, differs from MTM.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Will said:


> 1) At least one Savile Row house made fused suits for years before going back to canvas.


Intriguing. Could you possibly say which SR house that was, Will?


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

des merrion said:


> Canvas IS the better choice if you can afford it. It creates a soft jacket, fluid, moulded to the body, natural. It is traditional and tradition is similar to experience, you can not buy it. It should be preserved and I am doing my best to preserve it. The bespoke experience is at the pinnacle of excellence, as such any difference, even slightly, the absolute best quality should be given to the customer. That is canvas, full hand padded canvas.
> 
> My opinion is based on my experience within the wholesale trade, making fused and canvas jackets and I hope is a fair reflection.
> 
> ...


The general consensus in the clothing community is that full canvas is better.

Fusing came about as a labor/cost saving device. It has improved greatly since its inception. I recall a gent years ago who had a sea of bubbles across the front of his suit.

A couple of case studies:

Savile Row's Davies & Son makes fused suits for a small number of customers. Davies acquired a number of firms including James & James and Wells of Mayfair. Both James and Well made fused bespoke suits. Davies has always made a full canvas suit, however some special customers of James and Wells still want fusing. In so many words those customers have said "give me the same exact suit that Mr. James used to give me." He mentioned to me a leader of industry who wants fused suits because he feels they give him a "smarter" appearance. Otherwise, Alan Bennett of Davies believes that suits should have a floating canvas (or full canvas), and the fused suit is being offered to the few hold-outs.

At the other end of the spectrum, LS Mens Clothes in NYC sells discounted MTM from H. Freeman. These are full canvas fronts. LS also sells Coppley which are half canvas, but Izzy feels that the H. Freeman product is better particularly because it has the full canvas front.

Finally, I recall that St. Laurie in its Park Avenue shop used to have a small sign saying that its coats are sewn and not glued.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

The issue of fusing has been an exceptionally controversial one for some time -- not only on this Forum but among tailors as well...even on the tradition-laden and quality-committed Savile Row. As Son of Brummel notes, some firms -- such as James & James and Wells -- have been ardent advocates of it in the past. But this was not just a cost issue as SoB suggests. These firms believed that the technique brings better control and consistency, particularly with harder to tailor lightweight fabrics, that there was no loss in the look and drape of a quality fused garment, and that the Row needed to harness modern technology to speed up production times and make the best clothing possible...particularly in an era of fewer and fewer skilled craftsmen and rapidly rising costs. I have seem some beautiful clothing from these two makers and have not heard of dissatisfied customers as a result of their approach (although there certainly may be some). Now that James & James and Wells have been incorporated in Davies & Son, they are now employing more traditional construction though -- again as noted -- Davies (J&J and Wells are really just names on the letterhead now) will continue to make fused garments for past James & James and Wells customers. Others are of the view that the traditional methods remain best, that the look and feel of a canvased garment is superior, fear the potential failure of these new technologies, and value the truly unique product that will always result from the distinct touch and skill of individual craftsmen. Of course, some of those "unique" products leave customers unsatisfied or may soon cost so much as to make them virtually unattainable. So this is Savile Row's continuing question: how much to use modern methods, technologies, and equipment without losing the artistry and handwork that makes a Savile Row suit a Savile Row suit. And for the consumer the question remains how superior -- if at all -- is a fully canvased garment? And so it goes....


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

medwards said:


> And for the consumer the question remains how superior -- if at all -- is a fully canvased garment? And so it goes....


So how would you answer this question medwards in terms of your preferences?


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*Medwards Augmentation*

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=49328

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=47890


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

smr said:


> So how would you answer this question medwards in terms of your preferences?


My preference is canvas. For many years, Keith Fallan was my tailor. Keith (who learned his tailoring the old fashioned-way -- as an apprentice at Huntsman -- and who learned cutting at Wealeson and Leagate) was intrigued by the technique of fusing, but adamant against employing it. The idea that at some point -- no matter how distant in the future -- the fusing had even a _possibility_ of coming apart or that the coat could bubble simply wasn't acceptable to him. I have not owned a fused garment in twenty-five years so I cannot personally attest to their feel or wear. But Keith's approach seemed sound to me...and so I'm not about to experiment.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Thanks, medwards. That's my choice, too. I have a handful 1/2 canvassed suits with fusing in the body, and they do look nice, but my fully canvassed suits look and feel much better.

As des merrion stated, "It creates a soft jacket, fluid, moulded to the body, natural." For me, that makes it a much better choice even if fusing doesn't bubble nearly as much as it used to, and even if fusing is softer than it used to be.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

To the more knowledgeable members,

How can one tell a jacket is canvassed, half canvassed or fused?


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

harrybee said:


> To the more knowledgeable members,
> 
> How can one tell a jacket is canvassed, half canvassed or fused?


To tell if a jacket is fully canvassed, pinch the inside and outside of the jacket below the bottom buttonhole. Gently pull the layers apart. If there's a third layer inside, the jacket is canvassed.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

medwards said:


> The issue of fusing has been an exceptionally controversial one for some time -- not only on this Forum but among tailors as well...even on the tradition-laden and quality-committed Savile Row. As Son of Brummel notes, some firms -- such as James & James and Wells -- have been ardent advocates of it in the past. But this was not just a cost issue as SoB suggests. These firms believed that the technique brings better control and consistency, particularly with harder to tailor lightweight fabrics, that there was no loss in the look and drape of a quality fused garment, and that the Row needed to harness modern technology to speed up production times and make the best clothing possible...particularly in an era of fewer and fewer skilled craftsmen and rapidly rising costs. I have seem some beautiful clothing from these two makers and have not heard of dissatisfied customers as a result of their approach (although there certainly may be some). Now that James & James and Wells have been incorporated in Davies & Son, they are now employing more traditional construction though -- again as noted -- Davies (J&J and Wells are really just names on the letterhead now) will continue to make fused garments for past James & James and Wells customers. Others are of the view that the traditional methods remain best, that the look and feel of a canvased garment is superior, fear the potential failure of these new technologies, and value the truly unique product that will always result from the distinct touch and skill of individual craftsmen. Of course, some of those "unique" products leave customers unsatisfied or may soon cost so much as to make them virtually unattainable. So this is Savile Row's continuing question: how much to use modern methods, technologies, and equipment without losing the artistry and handwork that makes a Savile Row suit a Savile Row suit. And for the consumer the question remains how superior -- if at all -- is a fully canvased garment? And so it goes....


I recently spoke to a retailer whose factory had a devil of a time trying to tailor an 180's cloth. The factory wanted to fuse since the cloth had no body and tended to pucker and bubble if it were made into a full canvas coat. The retailer insisted on a fully canvassed coat, and it's a mess.

I have a few fused and half canvas coats. They aren't bad although I prefer full canvas. I believe that the industry has conquered the bubbling and puckering issue with fusing on better garments.

Medwards raises an interesting point. Perhaps fusing will be become more accepted in the future as a cost saving issue in the bespoke/custom trade as the prices keep rising and the skilled worker ranks diminish. Or is Asian labor (either in UK or USA or off shore) the answer?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

son of brummell said:


> I recently spoke to a retailer whose factory had a devil of a time trying to tailor an 180's cloth. The factory wanted to fuse since the cloth had no body and tended to pucker and bubble if it were made into a full canvas coat. The retailer insisted on a fully canvassed coat, and it's a mess.


This further confirms what I've heard about the higher, ultrafine ranges of "super" wools being suboptimal. In addition to being hard to tailor, I bet that 180s fabric doesn't resist wrinkling or wear very hard, either.

I've got some suits made of Loro Piana and E. Thomas Super 130s that work very well, but I have no desire to go any higher.


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## MarkusH (Dec 10, 2004)

DocHolliday said:


> I saw a blazer with bubbled lapel for sale in a J. Crew only a few months ago, so the problem isn't entirely extinct. Seems like you'd find out there was a problem only when it was too late.
> 
> The trouble with fusing, to me, is that for the price of good fusing, I could get good canvas.


I saw a bubbled chest on a friend a while ago. I asked what had happened, and he said rain.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> This further confirms what I've heard about the higher, ultrafine ranges of "super" wools being suboptimal.


At the 180s and 200s ranges yes. For good quality 150s cloth, then a suit can be quite durable as my Kitons have proven even with mega-travel wear.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> At the 180s and 200s ranges yes. For good quality 150s cloth, then a suit can be quite durable as my Kitons have proven even with mega-travel wear.


That's interesting to know. I came close to buying an Arnold Brant in a Super 150s (probably not near as good as the Super 150s that Kiton uses, I know) at a Saks Off 5th a couple of years ago, but opted not to pull the trigger b/c while there was a lot I like about the suit, that fabric just seemed too fragile. I tend to place a pretty high value clothes being at least somewhat hard-wearing.


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## em36 (Feb 10, 2004)

One appreciates canvas construction when traveling a great deal. Ordinary, fused suits will eventully start to fall apart; shoulders seperating, etc. The more traditional construction bears repeated folding/unfolding and pressing, especially if you use cabin rollers.


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