# People and their kids...



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

So...the airplane thread and the sewer culture thread got me thinking about this...

To me, one of our biggest problems as a society is the fact that from the time they are born, most children have huge amounts of praise and encouragement heaped on them...now, don't get me wrong, I think children should recieve plenty of _positive_ encouragement...but I think the fact that they are all told how great they are from day 1 leads to alot of their bad behavior...

I remember a few years ago, being absolutely astounded when I was in a restaurant (a pizza joint, nothing fancy, but a restaurant none-the-less)...and this little girl (probably about 3 or 4 years old) was walking around on top of a table...her parents were quite loud and obnoxious about how cute they thought it was or some such nonsense...at one point a waiter came up and asked if they could get their daughter off the table, at which point the mother went bat$hit and the whole family stormed out as if the guy was demanding something unreasonable...I couldnt tell you how many times I've been in a store (usually a grocery store or department store, nicer boutiques usually dont let such crap fly)...where some kid between the ages of toddler and teenager was running around causing all kinds of ruckus, and the parents did nothing to control them, and in some cases even encouraged them...

Growing up in other countries, I had a very different childhood...I still recieved a tremendous amount of love and attention, but none of the coddling that I see heaped on so many kids now-a-days...In the places that I spent parts of my childhood, kids are expected to have some sense, and if they dont, their parents will see to it that they get some (usually in the form of a smack in the mouth)...I attended schools where if you stepped out of line, you had a date with a leather strap...and y'know what??? I actually learned things...

I don't know if it's just that parents dont want to discipline their kids, or they really do believe that they have the best kids in the world...but truth be told, all of this undue praise and coddling, to me, is ruining children, how can they grow up to be anything but lazy and worthless if they are never tought to think otherwise???

I dunno...just something I've been thinking about lately...


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I just point out that international academic scores are roughly inverse to the international "self esteem" scores. The US of course leads the pack in self esteem and sucks hind teat in academics. It can be broken down even further in the US, but I do not have the source to hand for posting.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*The open sewer kids*

I seriously doubt that the kids involved in the open sewer thread were heaped with love, affection, and praise. More probably, they grew up with the neglect and abuse that usually results in adults who are more animal than human.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

agnash said:


> I seriously doubt that the kids involved in the open sewer thread were heaped with love, affection, and praise. More probably, they grew up with the neglect and abuse that usually results in adults who are more animal than human.


The thing is...and I could be dead wrong as I have no kids myself...that parenting is a job and should be treated as such...you can't not be there or whatever...but at the same time, you have to carry out this job with a pretty high level of responsibility...how many spoiled 16 year old brats have killed themselves or others driving like they owned the road in the new CLK that mommy and daddy bought them for consistantly bringing home 2.0 report cards sence kindergarden??? I'm sorry...but it works both ways...and in some ways parents who irresponsibly spoil their children are just as bad as absentee parents...they both are not doing their part in making sure that their children are raised properly...


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Okay, as the father of five I guess I can speak with some experience on this. Alot of parents are scared of actually parenting- whether it's due to some misplaced fear that they'll "damage" the kids or that they want to be seen as a "friend' rather than a parent. That's the cause of the kids acting like little animals. Kids need direction and disclipline -not the wup their @$$ variety necessarily- but certainly they have to be taught that certain behavior will not be tolerated in certain places. One of my kids tablewalking would earn them a trip outside, and they know this. The soft and squishy sort of '70's style parenting is what gave rise to the self centered boobs that we see now. What alot of parents have to learn is that love, kindness and disclipline are not mutually exclusive, but necessary facets of the same thing.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Excellent post, Yachtie!!


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Excellent post, Yachtie!!


word...I've actually been a little nervous lately because alot of people (like 10 in the past month or so) have asked me why I don't have any kids yet...I always say that it's because I enjoy buying clothes and going out partying too much, but honestly...I'm not ready for that responsibility...and reading Yachtie's post just confirmed to me what a big responsibility that is...I'm sure it's a rewarding job...but still...not a job I'd be interested in taking for a while now...


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> I just point out that international academic scores are roughly inverse to the international "self esteem" scores. The US of course leads the pack in self esteem and sucks hind teat in academics. It can be broken down even further in the US, but I do not have the source to hand for posting.


yes, I remember reading the same thing quite some time ago (15+years?)

I think Gabba Goul is directly on to the issue of coddle vs discipline. Adversity and discipline necessary ingredients for the adult recipe.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

The Gabba Goul said:


> word...I've actually been a little nervous lately because alot of people (like 10 in the past month or so) have asked me why I don't have any kids yet...I always say that it's because I enjoy buying clothes and going out partying too much, but honestly...I'm not ready for that responsibility...and reading Yachtie's post just confirmed to me what a big responsibility that is...I'm sure it's a rewarding job...but still...not a job I'd be interested in taking for a while now...


I'm older than you and I feel the same way. The concept is scary, isn't it?

Well, plus... you're not married, are you? That's a pretty good reason not to have kids yet. 

On the topic of praising kids for merely existing, there was an article about that I read recently blaming Mr Rogers. I sent it to a college professor friend of mind and he definitely agreed. Well, not so much with the Mr Rogers bashing, but people in general are not special just the way they are... they have to earn privileges and respect to be respected in turn. I am afraid a lot of people don't realize this and feel VERY ENTITLED all the time because no one ever told them no.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Walking on furniture is one of my biggest child pet-peeves. I have no idea why parents don't teach their kids not to walk on furniture.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

yachtie said:


> Okay, as the father of five I guess I can speak with some experience on this. Alot of parents are scared of actually parenting- whether it's due to some misplaced fear that they'll "damage" the kids or that they want to be seen as a "friend' rather than a parent. That's the cause of the kids acting like little animals. Kids need direction and disclipline -not the wup their @$$ variety necessarily- but certainly they have to be taught that certain behavior will not be tolerated in certain places. One of my kids tablewalking would earn them a trip outside, and they know this. The soft and squishy sort of '70's style parenting is what gave rise to the self centered boobs that we see now. What alot of parents have to learn is that love, kindness and disclipline are not mutually exclusive, but necessary facets of the same thing.


+1

My kids, gonna raise them like this guy did:
https://www.imdb.com/gallery/mptv/1204/Mptv/1204/0056_0021.jpg.html?hint=tt0049408


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> I just point out that international academic scores are roughly inverse to the international "self esteem" scores. The US of course leads the pack in self esteem and sucks hind teat in academics. It can be broken down even further in the US, but I do not have the source to hand for posting.


Apparently, academic scores and wealth/technological/scientific innovation may also inversely related? The U.S. scores prettty highly on these measures, and pretty consistently as well. Not arguing with your point, just wonder why it is that the U.S. does indeed seem to perform poorly on these academic tests, but remains among the wealthiest, most innovative and powerful nation in the world. That is the real mystery, and I don't believe this is all down to immigrants coming to America to innovate either.


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## samblau (Apr 2, 2005)

I have been thinking about this issue for quite some time. As a 25 year old I still fit into the "kid" demographic, at least I like to think I do. My comments are geared more towards the effects of such lax parental control. 

Coming from the suburbs of NYC is different than coming from somewhere else. The pressure/sense of entitlement/family backing leads to some terrible notion that unless you have an advanced professional degree you are a failure. Said degree must be aquired before the age of 30 of course. (My one year after college where I held a full-time with benefits job as a paralegal for the city of NY is referred to still as my "year off") 

During elementary-high school I didn't try. My parents still don't beleive me and like to think I was just smarter and didn't have to work as hard. Perhaps this is true however as I recall, my sole purpose in attending my last three years of high school was to play basketball. I am convinced I learned my (admittedly poor despite 7 years of higher education + private high school) grammar out of "Mad Libs". This total lack of effort has prooven to be disasterous as once I began law school I felt I could just meander my way through, which sadly, after 1st year, I learned was possible. My A's in law school, absent writing courses, were all a product of generic commercial supplements anyone can buy for $20. My education cost about half a million dollars. Most of it was spent napping yet supposedly (if I passed the Bar) I can be called "Esquire" and represent other people. As for decorum, the majority of popular kids in school were bullies, commited acts that in retrospect qualified as sexual assault, drug users/sellers etc. A good deal of people at my law school including top students are known to use cocaine/crystal meth etc. It makes my drinking seem like childs-play, which essentially it is as half of the bars I used to go to in Manhattan are overrun with "children" girls who appear to be 16 yrs old with fake licenses with guys wearing popped collars and no need to shave. How did they get there w/o parental support? When I was in HS my friends, or rather classmates, would go into Manhattan whereas my parents would typically not allow it. I find that it is these same people, who remain jobless/degreeless in many cases that cram up 5 peopel in $3k 1 bedroom apartments in Williamsburg and the LES because they are simply too cool to grow up. My favorite of course was the Nassau Community College student parking lot which had MUCH better cars than those of the teachers. I am talking Beemers, Benz, Range Rover's and above. Without insulting anyone, NCC isn't exactly braniac central. Oh, and as for grade inflation, for my two summer courses there my GPA was over a 4. I guess showing up was worth a lot. Furthermore, some of the actual academic debates I have been a part of focus on China's one child policy verses US "fundamental rights" to parenting. Without advoating enforced sterilization (a remedy previously enforced by US Courts btw), how can the government not see an interest in not having 18 year old parents? Maybe it needs to come from society as a whole. Is it that hard to say we don't think that the current socio-economic climate is condusive for such? I am attacked mercilessly whenever I dare bring up anything close to that in what is supposedly an academic "debate". 

So where does this leave us? In my humble opinion, the degree I hold is not worth the paper its printed on. The rampant nepotism, needless social promotion and perpetual ineficiency has stymied with once youthful-liberal initiative to "do something good" in life. Finding a job absent a "connection" (or as the school calls it "networking") or some other bit of luck is incredibly difficult now that the market is saturated with thosands of people who didn't wan't to go to law school, were coereced or in my case simply not ready. After attending Brandeis Universty and Brooklyn Law School, two of the most liberal schools on earth I am left with the desire to run and join the Republican's and move into Middle-America a la my parents who ran off to Pennsylvania. Having worked in numerous Manhattan offices, government and private I can not beleive the whining and carrying on. No one gets paid enough (including my $500k + options friends apparently), everyone works too hard....its all amusing. When I worked for the NYC Corp. Counsel we had to hire 12 paralegals that could do the work of two half-witted attorneys. Its infuriating. Forgive my rant, I just woke up after finishing the Bar exam yesterday.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gnatty8 said:


> Apparently, academic scores and wealth/technological/scientific innovation may also inversely related? The U.S. scores prettty highly on these measures, and pretty consistently as well. Not arguing with your point, just wonder why it is that the U.S. does indeed seem to perform poorly on these academic tests, but remains among the wealthiest, most innovative and powerful nation in the world. That is the real mystery, and I don't believe this is all down to immigrants coming to America to innovate either.


I do think immigration plays a large part in this. I have read statistics that indicate well over 50% of graduate student positions in the hard sciences are foreign students. Have you looked at the last names in a directory of physicians lately? Computer science majors? Accountants and finance? Then we also still have a significant home grown talent pool, it is just that this is far outweighed by the duffers in the local population.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> I do think immigration plays a large part in this. I have read statistics that indicate well over 50% of graduate student positions in the hard sciences are foreign students. Have you looked at the last names in a directory of physicians lately? Computer science majors? Accountants and finance? Then we also still have a significant home grown talent pool, it is just that this is far outweighed by the duffers in the local population.


Those are not statistics, more allegory. I can respond that none of the doctors at the large medical practice my own doctors works at are foreign born, but that does not mean there are no foreign born doctors practicing medicine in the U.S. I also work in finance, and it is almost overwhelmingly a WASP profession, with very few exceptions. I just don't agree with you on this one, sorry.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

samblau said:


> I have been thinking about this issue for quite some time. As a 25 year old I still fit into the "kid" demographic, at least I like to think I do. My comments are geared more towards the effects of such lax parental control.
> 
> Coming from the suburbs of NYC is different than coming from somewhere else. The pressure/sense of entitlement/family backing leads to some terrible notion that unless you have an advanced professional degree you are a failure. Said degree must be aquired before the age of 30 of course. (My one year after college where I held a full-time with benefits job as a paralegal for the city of NY is referred to still as my "year off")
> 
> ...


+1 awesome post Sam

Good luck with your job search. Don't be afraid to use the douchebags you grew up with as contacts with their parents etc.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gnatty8 said:


> *Those are not statistics, more allegory.*


Oh really?



> The AIP report also found that foreign students made up a smaller fraction of the total first-year graduate student enrollment in 2004. The percentage of first-year students from outside the United States declined from a peak of 55% in the 2000-2001 academic year to about 43% in fall 2004.


Note that pre-9/11 55%, it has fallen to 43% in 2004. I dare say if 9/11 had never happened, the number would certainly not have dropped. This number has to do with the the makeup of graduate students in the physical sciences and can be found at https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200511/foreign-grad.cfm Certainly seems more fact than allegory to me.

There is no need even to comment on physicians, I think you are incorrect that a "large medical practice" fails to have zero foreign born physicians. It is possible of course, but doing what I do, I can tell you it is very unlikely and even if true, certainly not representative of current reality. Outliers will always exist but they do not represent the actual distribution.

I need to clarify what I meant in regards to accounting and finance. I was thinking of the academic departments at business schools. Please do not tell me that is the domain of WASPs. We have too many MBAs here that can testify it is not.



gnatty8 said:


> I just don't agree with you on this one, sorry.


It really is not a matter of agreeing with me or not. It really is a matter of accepting reality or not, i.e. the citation I just provided you proves my assertion is indeed reality.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Oh really?
> 
> Note that pre-9/11 55%, it has fallen to 43% in 2004. I dare say if 9/11 had never happened, the number would certainly not have dropped. This number has to do with the the makeup of graduate students in the physical sciences and can be found at https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200511/foreign-grad.cfm Certainly seems more fact than allegory to me.
> 
> ...


The citation you provided proves that U.S. graduate schools are among the best in the world and attract people from around the world who want to study at the best in the world.

I don't recall making any statements about the faculty at business schools. I made a statement about my professional experience. I went to graduate school and of course there were numerous foreign born faculty members. I think on average though, in the field of finance, the most well known are overwhelmingly American. Robert Merton, Paul Samuelson, Bob Lucas, Fischer Black, Gary Becker, Jeremy Siegel. Note I did not say all, but most. Also, I really do not understand how you can be an authority on the nationality of the doctors in the medical practice I patron. I said "my" practice, not all practices. To call me incorrect is a bit of a stretch wouldn't you say? I think my point that the American economy has produced more innovation, scientific, technological, financial and otherwise, than most any other economy in the last 100 years is irrefutable. It may not always be the case, but I don't think that can be argued with.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*Teens at the Mall*

https://news.aol.com/story/_a/town-considers-ban-on-teens-at-mall/20070726102409990001


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*I own a gun, several actually*

and there are probably another 57 million or so people in the U.S. who also own guns. Tonight on the news, the headline will not be 57 million U.S. gun owners did not kill anyone today. The headline will be about the gunowner who did kill someone.

I think the same applies to children. Only the scandalous, sexy and outrageous stoires make the headlines. Unfortunately, in the race for ratings, all news outlets are now the Jerry Springer Show.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gnatty8 said:


> The citation you provided proves that U.S. graduate schools are among the best in the world and attract people from around the world who want to study at the best in the world.


And it also proves *exactly what I claimed was true to be the case,* that you stated was "allegory", whatever that was supposed to mean.



gnatty8 said:


> I don't recall making any statements about the faculty at business schools. I made a statement about my professional experience.


I do not recall saying you made a statement about the faculty at business schools. I explained I needed to clarify my prior statement and I did.



gnatty8 said:


> I went to graduate school and of course there were numerous foreign born faculty members.


Exactly.



gnatty8 said:


> I said "my" practice, not all practices. To call me incorrect is a bit of a stretch wouldn't you say?


I told you exactly what I think. I think you are very likely incorrect, but offered you the benefit of a doubt. Again though, I am highly dubious that any "large medical practice" in a large urban area, such as yours, has exactly zero foreign born physicians. This means no Canadian, no Brits, no people born in another country then moved here in early childhood. As I said, it could be the case, but I suspect it is not.



gnatty8 said:


> I think my point that the American economy has produced more innovation, scientific, technological, financial and otherwise, than most any other economy in the last 100 years is irrefutable. It may not always be the case, but I don't think that can be argued with.


I do not recall this being in contention and I defy you to point out my arguing to the contrary. What is clear is that you made a statement that indicated my assertion concerning the make up of graduate students in the hard or physical sciences was incorrect. I demonstrated I was completely on target. I also had no idea we were speaking of the "last 100 years", I rather thought this thread was dealing with the current situation. Hell, 100 years ago, I am not even sure Chinese could own property in the state I am living in (which was a terriorty at that time). Of course that has nothing to do with the current reality either, but it you get to pull in extraneous stuff, so do I.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Good grief.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

agnash said:


> and there are probably another 57 million or so people in the U.S. who also own guns. Tonight on the news, the headline will not be 57 million U.S. gun owners did not kill anyone today. The headline will be about the gunowner who did kill someone.
> 
> I think the same applies to children. Only the scandalous, sexy and outrageous stoires make the headlines. Unfortunately, in the race for ratings, all news outlets are now the Jerry Springer Show.


all due respect...you are comparing apples to bowling balls...

I too am a gun enthusiast, but have taken safety courses, and have respect for the pistol and don't look at it as an extension of my penis (not saying that you do, but alot of other guys do)...I'm all for having guns, but I think that alot of gun owners shouldnt be allowed to be...just like I feel alot of people with children should never have been allowed to breed...

The Bay Area is kind of a funny place, because right next to some of the most expensive properties in the countries, you have some of the worst ghettos...truth be told, when you turn the news and hear about a tripple homicide in East Oakland or Hunter's Point, it doesnt even phase you...to the point, that it doesnt even really get reported any more...maybe a 15 or 20 sencond snippet on the evening news...that's about it...The thing is, kids acting like jackasses used to be big news, now, you don't really hear about that either...in fact, I think the opposite is true...I see alot of the good kids getting the credit they deserve (unfortunately, there just isnt that many of them...I was particularly amused by a story about a highschool girl who paints custom sneakers for kids in the hospital in the paper yesterday, and guess what, that made the front page...when most kids (who arent celebrities) act up, it'll make page 26 if it's really really bad, otherwise, you don't really hear about it unless you somehow know this person...yeah, you'll hear about Linsey Lohan or Paris getting sent up north for posession of blow...but I can tell you for sure, that during my time in highschool and college there were literally over a hundred kids who got some form of punishment for similar acts (and there was even one or two in middle school IIRC), and, I went to an upscale highschool in a good neighborhood, and a private college, so it can't be blamed on "the streets" or whatever...these were kids who like samblau pointed out drove cars (In high school mind you) that cost $40K+...in other words worthless spoiled punks who would never amount to anything if it wasnt for the fact that daddy has more connections than AT&T when it comes to the corporate world...

I'm sorry...it's not a matter of "Oh you only hear about the bad ones"...the deal is that the majority are bad...that's why you hear so much about them...


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gnatty8 said:


> Good grief.


I am sorry. Was I just supposed to let you tell me I was totally incorrect and not bother to provide proof and/or clarification? I was not trying to be confrontational but you pretty plainly stated I was incorrect, I felt a vigorous defense was warranted.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> I am sorry. Was I just supposed to let you tell me I was totally incorrect and not bother to provide proof and/or clarification? I was not trying to be confrontational but you pretty plainly stated I was incorrect, I felt a vigorous defense was warranted.


You proved nothing beyond the fact that there are a lot of foreign graduate students studying in the U.S. If you read my response, I stated I did not agree with you, not that you were incorrect.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I am sorry. Was I just supposed to let you tell me I was totally incorrect and not bother to provide proof and/or clarification? I was not trying to be confrontational but you pretty plainly stated I was incorrect, I felt a vigorous defense was warranted.


I think most anybody who works in the medical field knows that you're correct...at the hospital where I work, I'd say (no exageration) only about 5%-10% or so of the nursing staff is American born (most are from the Philipines and Africa), and off the top of my head I can only think of about 5 out of around 40 hospital based MD's who are American Born (or at least Anglos)...

The fact of the matter is that in countries like India and Japan, and many Caribbean countries, where these Doctors come from, they are made to strive for acchievement, they arent told that they are "somebody" regardless...they have it beaten into them from a very early age tha they have to earn the right to be "somebody" then they come here, and enter the workforce where they are competing against those who have been told that it's okay to fail and blah blah blah, and that's why they kick our butts...need more proof???keep an eye on the tech industry...it's already changing very rapidly...10 years from now, who do you think will be running that industry...

Truth be told...as much as I dislike illegal aliens, and feel they are a black eye to all Latin people everywhere...I can understand the argument for them being here when people say "well, they only do the jobs that Americans won't do"...and it's true...alot of these people who have been sitting on thier doughy behinds being told how great they are sence the day their mother birthed them would rather sit at home on the dole (or some fraudilent form of disability [you'd be surprised how popular that is]) then pick tomatoes or stand over a stove all day for minimum wage...


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*A more thorough reading of Wayfarers info*



gnatty8 said:


> Good grief.


I took a look at the source material for Wayfarer's generalizations. First, the "first year grad student survey" was only for physics students, not all grad students. Second, It was only during the tale end of the booming 90s economy that foreign born grad students exceeded U.S. born grad students, and anyone with a basic understanding of economics knows why. For those who missed that day in class, all advanced educational programs see less demand when there is low unemployment.

Finally, there is the well documented decrease in the U.S. birthrate. There were about 25% fewer native born students available to attend grad schools in the 1990s than there were in the 1980s. This is based on the approximatley 25% decreasein the U.S. birth rate between the 1960s and the 1970s. Unless that trend changes, get used to immigrants. We will need them to care for the people who forgot that children are necessary in order to have a future.

https://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/ed/figure4.htm


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*Actually, they are more accomplished than there elders*



The Gabba Goul said:


> I think most anybody who works in the medical field knows that you're correct...at the hospital where I work, I'd say (no exageration) only about 5%-10% or so of the nursing staff is American born (most are from the Philipines and Africa), and off the top of my head I can only think of about 5 out of around 40 hospital based MD's who are American Born (or at least Anglos)...


I think you are mistaking cause and effect here. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, in the last 5 years, U.S. medical schools have graduated 77,930 native students, and 809 foreign students. According to their site, the number of graduates has remained steady, despite the decreasing U.S. birth rate. For those scratching your heads, that means that a larger percentage of the kids born in the 1970s are doctors than the percentages in the 50s or 60s. Why are there so many foreign born medical staff? Because the whole field has blown up. An aging population needs more care than a young, healthy population. Foreing nurses and doctors have to be brought in, just as all types of foreign labor has to be brought in, to make up for the short sightedness of people who, and I do repeat mysely here, forgot that children are necessary to have a future.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

I think 5 out of 40 does not represent the distribution either. I agree, the practice I go to may be anomalous, and who knows, there may be a Canadian or two in there. However, using some really rough numbers such as this one from USA Today:

https://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm

which puts the number of doctors in the U.S. at about 800,000; and then this one, which quotes a professor from GWU:

which puts the number of foreign born doctors at 130,000, leads me to believe the ratio is more like 6 to 1 in favor of native born doctors, or about 16%. Your number of 8 foreign born to each native seems slightly anomalous.

Also, I noted no rebuttal to my statement that the biggest innovators in finance were almost all native born. I even forgot to mention Gene Fama, Ken French, and Milton Friedman.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

You lot make me chuckle :icon_smile_big: 

Why did I pick physics students as representative? Because a) it came up on a Google search first and b) I never addressed "all grad students", I specifically stated "hard sciences" and "physical sciences". I also never attributed cause, merely description. Further, all these numbers are concerning "foreign students" (people that are non-residents, here on student visas), not "foreign born students"! If one added those people born in another country but permanent residents or naturalized citizens of the US, I have no doubt the number would be even higher.

However, once again, those damn trees are getting in the way of seeing the forest.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

I think that we're straying from the original argument here...perhaps many of these doctors werent spoiled as children...or perhaps they're just hacks (trust me, alot of doctors are, nothing against doctors, my uncle is one, but it's true, there are alot of bad ones out there)...the thing is that yeah, we have educated people in this country, we have hard working people too...but the problem is that these values arent engrained into children, instead, they are told from day one that they are special...and are "somebody" and all that other bull$hit...other countries dont have this...go to some of your poorer countries in Latin America (I've been to alot of them)...the funny thing is that even the bums and street people have some kind of "job" (for the most part), they're shining shoes, or selling newspapers or somehting to at least give them a few pieces of silver to buy dinner that night, they arent sitting around on their lazy fat cans stuffing cheetos into their worthless faces complaining about what an unfair shake they have in life...

That's the difference, perhaps if these kids werent raised to become knuckleheads, we'd graduate twice as many doctors...


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gnatty8 said:


> Also, I noted no rebuttal to my statement that the biggest innovators in finance were almost all native born. I even forgot to mention Gene Fama, Ken French, and Milton Friedman.


I do apologize, but I have yet to find a need to rebutt that with which I am not disagreeing. In my second post to you I stated I needed to clarify my original position and in fact, you agreed with it.

As far as physicians go, further examination is required. Please find the distribution for docs under 40 or 45 (cannot remember the cut point from the last article I read on this) and the distribution greatly changes.

gnatty, we seem to have come to some disagreement here. I have yet to dispute that the US is wealthy, powerful, and innovative. I have yet to dispute that in the last 100 years the US has been responsible for many wonders. I have yet to dispute the innovators in finance. I have however made some specific assertions regarding the current reality in regards to the make up people in the hard sciences in the US. If you do not want to agree with my data, all well and good.

I will not however "rebutt" points I have never disputed.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> gnatty, we seem to have come to some disagreement here. I have yet to dispute that the US is wealthy, powerful, and innovative. I have yet to dispute that in the last 100 years the US has been responsible for many wonders. I have yet to dispute the innovators in finance. I have however made some specific assertions regarding the current reality in regards to the make up people in the hard sciences in the US. If you do not want to agree with my data, all well and good.


Exactly...I don't think anybody is saying that the US is bad or whatever...just that if we want to continue our tradition of being a wealthy, innovative, powerhouse, then perhaps the way we raise our children should be further examined...as was stated earlier...it started in the 70's...and it's been all downhill from there...


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

Praise in and of itself is not the problem, rather disingenuous praise for dubious achievement. Lack of the will to curb inappropriate behaviour in children is even worse, and there is no shortage of that going around, for sure.

I have a 5 year-old daughter and a 2 year-old son, and every day is a struggle to inculcuate manners and discipline (hopefully to develop that most precious of commodities, self-discipline). I figure putting in the effort now will pay dividends when they are older -- kind of like compound interest. Even if I fail, I will be content knowing that I gave it my best shot and didn't just let them float along with the atrocious zeitgeist.

There is hope:



Oh, and the "no spanking" crowd are certifiable. If the government ever makes that illegal, then they can come take my kids from me.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I agree that part of it is parents who'd rather be "friends" and "cool" rather than walking Gods who demand to be respected and even feared. Buying your kids drugs and alcohol doesn't make you a better parent because your kids will like you more. 

Children, just like dogs, need guidance. Sometimes this involves discipline. 

Maybe we're just all old fogeys? The older generations have been lamenting the younger forever. To quote Mark Chandler, SVP and General Counsel at Cisco:
" But this reminded me of something I read recently, a complaint that “affluent parents have become role models for luxury and licentiousness, and have moved far away from caring about whether their children develop habits of discipline and self-restraint. As a result, young people are increasingly impudent and have a total disregard of the respect they owe to themselves and others.” Pretty strong stuff. This was written by Tacitus in 75 AD."


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> *I think that we're straying from the original argument here...*perhaps many of these doctors werent spoiled as children...or perhaps they're just hacks (trust me, alot of doctors are, nothing against doctors, my uncle is one, but it's true, there are alot of bad ones out there)...the thing is that yeah, we have educated people in this country, we have hard working people too...but the problem is that these values arent engrained into children, instead, they are told from day one that they are special...and are "somebody" and all that other bull$hit...other countries dont have this...go to some of your poorer countries in Latin America (I've been to alot of them)...the funny thing is that even the bums and street people have some kind of "job" (for the most part), they're shining shoes, or selling newspapers or somehting to at least give them a few pieces of silver to buy dinner that night, they arent sitting around on their lazy fat cans stuffing cheetos into their worthless faces complaining about what an unfair shake they have in life...
> 
> That's the difference, perhaps if these kids werent raised to become knuckleheads, we'd graduate twice as many doctors...


Parents....
1. Be parents first and friends second
2. Lead by example
3. Set boundaries for your children and hold them accountable
4. Don't allow your child to not be a productive member of society
Children...
1. Do as your told


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Trenditional said:


> Parents....
> 1. Be parents first and friends second
> 2. Lead by example
> 3. Set boundaries for your children and hold them accountable
> ...


Quite so.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> " But this reminded me of something I read recently, a complaint that "affluent parents have become role models for luxury and licentiousness, and have moved far away from caring about whether their children develop habits of discipline and self-restraint. As a result, young people are increasingly impudent and have a total disregard of the respect they owe to themselves and others." Pretty strong stuff. This was written by Tacitus in 75 AD."


Very funny. I was thinking we might start complaining about that rock and roll music next. Elvis with his lewd hip shaking and those crazy British boys with their long hair covering their ears.:icon_smile_big:


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> I think that we're straying from the original argument here.....but the problem is that these values arent engrained into children, instead, they are told from day one that they are special...and are "somebody" and all that other bull$hit...other countries dont have this... even the bums and street people have some kind of "job" ...they arent sitting around on their lazy fat cans stuffing cheetos into their worthless faces complaining about what an unfair shake they have in life...
> 
> That's the difference, perhaps if these kids werent raised to become knuckleheads, we'd graduate twice as many doctors...


I guess I am not properly following the argument. Let me see if I can recap. 1) American children are told they are special, and this results in a sense of entitlement. 2) This translates into a generation that are lazy,uneduacted and lack innovation.

Our current unemployment rate is less than 5%. For those of you who took a course in economics, you know just how low that is, and it can be justifiably argued that an unemployment rate that low represents a labor market that is too tight, i.e. not enough workers available. Look at the linked graph for a comparison.
https://www.investmenttools.com/thestate/us_unemployment_rate.htm

How about education levels? According to the U.S. Census, the high school graduation rate increased from 50% in 1947 to 89% in 1976. From 1976 to 1992 it held steady, and then started increasing to an all time high in 2003 (the latest year for which data is available). College education levels followed a similar trend, peaking in 1978, staying steady through the mid-90s, and then climbing to an all time record in 2003. So, if you were born in the 50s, then yours was the best educated generation, until the generation born in the 60s. If you were born in the 60s, then you are part of the best educated generation, until the one born in the 70s. And so on.

If the children in America are being coddled and told they are special for no particular reason, and if there is some relationship between this coddling and education and work, then the coddling seems to have produced record levels of education and employment.

I would not disagree that children today are more disrespectful than prior generations (unless you include the generation that came of age in the 1960s). I wouldn't disagree that it sometimes scares me that I am raising a daughter when I look at the behavior of teens. But that said, some of the things I value, such as education and work, do seem to be valued by the generations coming up behind me.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Many good points, most notably crazy's concerning every generation thinking the next one is headed to ruination. I noticed that myself.

Agnash, one thing I would investigate. What is the actual educational achievement of people graduating from high school? Also, what degrees are people getting in college? Two year? Four year? Most importantly, what subject was their major? 

This is purely anecdotal but so many wait staff in Tucson (so I will guess around the country) have degrees that I almost have come to expect to have a college grad asking me if I would like more bread or another cocktail. I think there are a number of degrees that are virtually worthless, in regards to marketable job skills, that pump out grads by the thousands. I think that a disservice is being done to many in easy access to student loans and ready acceptance into programs that in all truth, are rather unlikely to land someone a professional job. In all truth, I think a successful journeyman electrician has made a better choice than someone recieving an undergraduate diploma in a host of majors that present no marketable skill.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Agnash, one thing I would investigate. What is the actual educational achievement of people graduating from high school? Also, what degrees are people getting in college? Two year? Four year? Most importantly, what subject was their major?
> 
> I almost have come to expect to have a college grad asking me if I would like more bread or another cocktail. I think there are a number of degrees that are virtually worthless, in regards to marketable job skills, that pump out grads by the thousands. I think that a disservice is being done to many in easy access to student loans and ready acceptance into programs that in all truth, are rather unlikely to land someone a professional job. In all truth, I think a successful journeyman electrician has made a better choice than someone recieving an undergraduate diploma in a host of majors that present no marketable skill.


As to your first point, the data collected by the census was for a bachelor's degree or higher. Data on majors, if collected, was not available.

As to your second point, colleges that allow students to take out loans for degree progams that offer little professional opportunity are doing a disservice to their students. Of course, a degree that leads to professional opportunity is not always the best option. I had a professor when I was getting my MBA, who pointed out that his best friend from childhood had become a plumber while he (the professor) persued a career path in academia and consulting. It took the prof 30 years, but he was finally earning more than his friend the plumber.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

agnash said:


> I had a professor when I was getting my MBA, who pointed out that his best friend from childhood had become a plumber while he (the professor) persued a career path in academia and consulting. It took the prof 30 years, but he was finally earning more than his friend the plumber.


Yup, exactly what I am saying. Here's a good example from my industry: registered nurses. One can take an 18 to 24 month diploma program and become an R.N. Right now fresh graduates in this area are commanding about a $30/hour wage with various hire perks, ranging from sign on bonuses of from $4-8k (I have seen a $20k one for Navapache Hospital recently, but that is really out in the boonies), to student loan repayments, housing allowances, etc. I cannot think of a program that gives a better and faster ROI than that at the moment. Community college tuition for maximum two years and come out earning over 60k?


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Yup, exactly what I am saying. Here's a good example from my industry: registered nurses. One can take an 18 to 24 month diploma program and become an R.N. Right now fresh graduates in this area are commanding about a $30/hour wage with various hire perks, ranging from sign on bonuses of from $4-8k (I have seen a $20k one for Navapache Hospital recently, but that is really out in the boonies), to student loan repayments, housing allowances, etc. I cannot think of a program that gives a better and faster ROI than that at the moment. Community college tuition for maximum two years and come out earning over 60k?


But you have to touch people


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> R.N. Right now fresh graduates in this area are commanding about a $30/hour wage with various hire perks, ranging from sign on bonuses of from $4-8k (I have seen a $20k one for Navapache Hospital recently, but that is really out in the boonies)


My employer (an HMO) is offering a $6k referral bonus for any employee who brings in a nurse. More antecdotal evidence, but I am trying really hard to meet nurses,and for once mywife approves.:icon_smile_big:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

JRR said:


> But you have to touch people


Well, even worse than that, usually people's bodily functions (and fluids) are a major part of your work day. However, it is deemed "professional" and really has better career growth potential than most wait staff have, with or without four year degrees in say, sociology (okay, please...no flames for specifically mentioning a major!)


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

agnash said:


> My employer (an HMO) is offering a $6k referral bonus for any employee who brings in a nurse. More antecdotal evidence, but I am trying really hard to meet nurses,and for once mywife approves.:icon_smile_big:


Yikes, I hope I do not ever have to pony up $6k just for a darn employee referral! Sounds like your area is even harder hit than mine. Another local hospital was recently offering $50/hour for RNs willing to work both Friday and Saturday nights.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*Way off the original topic*



Wayfarer said:


> Yikes, I hope I do not ever have to pony up $6k just for a darn employee referral! Sounds like your area is even harder hit than mine. Another local hospital was recently offering $50/hour for RNs willing to work both Friday and Saturday nights.


I can get $2k for a social worker referral. Both bonuses are paid out over the first year of employment.

My area is post-Katrina New Orleans, so, yeah, it was hit pretty hard.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

agnash said:


> I can get $2k for a social worker referral. Both bonuses are paid out over the first year of employment.
> 
> My area is post-Katrina New Orleans, so, yeah, it was hit pretty hard.


Yup, we always pay out bonuses on a quarterly basis. We also have a policy in place that is you receive a disciplinary action, for any reason, that quarter you forfeit your bonus. No need paying someone that does not appear to be working out.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

agnash said:


> How about education levels? According to the U.S. Census, the high school graduation rate increased from 50% in 1947 to 89% in 1976. From 1976 to 1992 it held steady, and then started increasing to an all time high in 2003 (the latest year for which data is available). College education levels followed a similar trend, peaking in 1978, staying steady through the mid-90s, and then climbing to an all time record in 2003. So, if you were born in the 50s, then yours was the best educated generation, until the generation born in the 60s. If you were born in the 60s, then you are part of the best educated generation, until the one born in the 70s. And so on.


There's been a variety of articles in Houston and Dallas papers about how the HS grad rates are cooked in TX, so I wouldn't completely trust these numbers. I'm sure they're cooked all over the country.

The first of the main two methods are treating drop-outs as "transfers" and just making them go away. They want to change the law so that a sending away school must receive an acknowlegement from the receiving school and document it before they can adjust the stats.

The other method is that you will notice that most urban school districts now have 9th,10th and then 11th and 12th grades at different schools. Current reporting in many districts is to only count kids that actually enter the 11/12 school as incoming for statistics, so all the kids that drop out before 11th grade (and there are a lot...) don't count.

Regardless, I don't think that the skills and knowledge (except maybe keyboarding skills) of most graduating HS seniors would compare favorably to any previous generation.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

android said:


> The first of the main two methods are treating drop-outs as "transfers" and just making them go away. They want to change the law so that a sending away school must receive an acknowlegement from the receiving school and document it before they can adjust the stats.
> 
> Regardless, I don't think that the skills and knowledge (except maybe keyboarding skills) of most graduating HS seniors would compare favorably to any previous generation.


These were U.S. Census numbers that were not looking at graduation rates, which many schools have an incentive to cook, but were looking at the actual percentage of the poulation that have high school or college degrees.

I don't know if I can agree or disagree with the skills and knowledge that the current crop of students have or lack relative to those who came before them. I will say this, my wife is smarter than I am (please do not ever let her know I admitted that), but I went to private schools growing up, and then attended a private university. She went to public schools. We are roughly the same age, and we both can see the difference in the end educational product. I was okay with sending our kids to public school, but she is most definitely not.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

JRR said:


> But you have to *wear Crocs*


Fixed it for you.


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

agnash said:


> These were U.S. Census numbers that were not looking at graduation rates, which many schools have an incentive to cook, but were looking at the actual percentage of the poulation that have high school or college degrees.
> 
> I don't know if I can agree or disagree with the skills and knowledge that the current crop of students have or lack relative to those who came before them. *I will say this, my wife is smarter than I am (please do not ever let her know I admitted that), but I went to private schools growing up, and then attended a private university. She went to public schools.* We are roughly the same age, and we both can see the difference in the end educational product. I was okay with sending our kids to public school, but she is most definitely not.


This squares completely with my experience -- all the *really* smart people I know went to public schools.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

eg1 said:


> This sqaures completely with my experience -- all the really smart people I know went to *public schools.*


You are speaking of public schools in comparison to the "seperate school" system? FYI to those not familiar with Ontario, it publically funds an obstensibly Catholic school system.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

I have a 5 year old boy (and twin 9 month old girls). yesterday I had a talk with him, for the second time, about why I discipline him, and not his friends who do the same thing. 

my son is extremly well behaved, and very polite. but it takes a great deal of discipline. I waited untl I had gotten a lot of life out of the way before I got married, and then another 5 years of life out of the way to have kids. at this point, I see being a father as the main focus of my life, and put in what ever effort is needed to pursue it. as I have told my son, my job, as a father, is to give him the tools to grow up and be a happy adult, capable of making a living, forming a stable and loving relationship that will develop into his own family, being a good citizen of the country he chooses to live in, having friends and being a gentleman, while letting him enjoy the path to that goal, as much as possible while focusing on the goal. that is my job, not entertaining him, or being his friend, or having fun. I try to have fun with him, and to keep him happy, but the overriding focus is on raising him correctly. 

I have struck my son twice - both times with the pad of my index finger on his forehead, both times when he was 3. he learned the lesson from that, and has never tried to use violence against me, or my wife, again. 


most of his friends are very poorly behaved, in my opinion. my biggest problem is explaining to my son why his friends have so few rules and are given so much more endulgences. but, that is my burden.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> You are speaking of public schools in comparison to the "seperate school" system? FYI to those not familiar with Ontario, it publically funds an obstensibly Catholic school system.


In New Orleans, and thoughout most of Louisiana, we have a well developed network of private schools. Some are faith based, and others are secular. It grew out of the fact that originally all schools in the area were Catholic. The government does not fund the private schools directly, but it might be better for the kids in public schools if the government did pay for the private schools. Almost all of the money for public education comes from property taxes, which people get to vote on. Most of the kids go to private school, so no one is willing to raise property taxes.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

eg1 said:


> This sqaures completely with my experience -- all the *really* smart people I know went to public schools.


I might agree, but I think that is because only the really smart ones can get a decent education in most of the public schools in the U.S.


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> You are speaking of public schools in comparison to the "seperate school" system? FYI to those not familiar with Ontario, it publically funds an obstensibly Catholic school system.


Your Canadian roots are showing! :icon_smile_big:

You raise a point that I did not think would make any sense to the mostly US community here, but yes, I mean *all four publically-funded school systems* in Ontario (English Public; English Catholic; French Public; French Catholic).

What I was driving at, however, is something *agnash* riffs on in his post, though I do not know enough about public education in the US to comment fairly on his assertion. I meant that the really, really intelligent people I know (especially in math dominated fields) all went to public schools -- the private school educated guys are nice enough, and no doubt well educated, but they are without exception intellectually average or, um, worse ... 

I don't doubt that the experiences of others may differ, but there you have it FWIW.


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