# How Patriotic Are You? (US)



## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Say you could afford a $500,000 imported luxury car, but will you buy a Cadillac because it's American?


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

I would use the $500,000 to put 10 inner city kids thru college, then I'd buy me a big ol' Oldsmobile, 'cause I'm a patriotic _Liberal_ American.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

If I were ever to buy an American car it would be a new Chrysler 300C https://www.voiturefr.fr/chrysler-occasion/photos/photo-chrysler-300c.jpg I like the American vulgarity of it added to an almost European design. Either that or that 2-door sportback Chrysler Crossfire.https://kauli.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/chrysler-crossfire.jpg 
I can't define it properly but modern Chryslers really appeal to me. For me Chrysler is my US equivalent of Vauxhall/Opel, not the dearest car but always the best looking. I've always loved Vauxhalls and Opels. https://www.dieselstation.com/cars/2010-vauxhall-insignia-vxr-a1655.html

US Fords and Caddies and Chevvies do nothing for me. Chrysler's where it's at!


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> I would use the $500,000 to put 10 inner city kids thru college, then I'd buy me a big ol' Oldsmobile, 'cause I'm a patriotic _Liberal_ American.


I'd donate part of that money to the local children's hospital and part to the local sheriff's office :icon_smile_big:.



Earl of Ormonde said:


> If I were ever to buy an American car it would be a new Chrysler 300C https://www.voiturefr.fr/chrysler-occasion/photos/photo-chrysler-300c.jpg I like the American vulgarity of it added to an almost European design. Either that or that 2-door sportback Chrysler Crossfire.https://www.google.se/imgres?imgurl...chrysler+crossfire&um=1&hl=sv&sa=N&tbs=isch:1 I can't define it but modern Chryslers really appeal to me. For me Chrysler is my US equivalent of Vauxhall/Opel, not the dearest car but always the best looking. I've always loved Vauxhalls and Opels. https://www.dieselstation.com/cars/2010-vauxhall-insignia-vxr-a1655.html
> 
> US Fords and Caddies and Chevvies do nothing for me. Chrysler's where it's at!












I'm not a big fan of Chrysler, but my mother recently bought this car, it's quite prestigious.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> If I were ever to buy an American car it would be a new Chrysler 300C. I like the American vulgarity of it added to an almost European design. Either that or that 2-door sportback Chrysler Crossfire!


You'd have to buy the Crossfire on eBay. They stopped making them 2 years ago, but the 300C, I'm with you. That's a car. The back seat has limousine room, and I'm a limo kind of guy. (Tuck my black suit in the trunk tho.)


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

> I'm not a big fan of Chrysler, but my mother recently bought this car, it's quite prestigious.


Is your mom single by any chance?


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Not really, but this Italian young lady is :devil:.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

camorristi said:


> Not really, but this Italian young lady is :devil:.


Oh my word!!! I've just fallen in love with a Caribiniera?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

camorristi said:


> I'd donate part of that money to the local children's hospital and part to the local sheriff's office :icon_smile_big:.
> ...


+1. Ah yes...Riley's Children's Hospital; you could never find a better use for that money!


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## Top Guns (Apr 29, 2010)

I would answer the question of the OP this way: far more patriotic than most, as I have recently retired affter serving 23 years in the US Army.

However, being a true patriot, I argue your implied definition of patriotism involving consumer choices. Patriotism has nothing whatsoever with what car you purchase. The argument about buying "American-made" versus "Import" is exceptionally muddy as many imports are actually made right here on US soil using us parts and employing US labor while domestic brands are often made with foreign parts that are crafted using cheap foreign labor.

My lesson in patriotism comes from Adlai Stevenson:

"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

First post. Welcome to you, Top Guns. The Stevenson quote is a fave of mine too, but I really wish you hadn't phrased your very first sentence here the way you did.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Peak & Pine said:


> Is your mom single by any chance?





camorristi said:


> Not really, but this Italian young lady is :devil:.


Yes, but is she driving a shiny new 300C, which apparently would come with your mom?


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Neither. I'd buy another Audi (maybe upgrade from an A6 to an A8), buy a couple bespoke suits, take a nice vacation with the wife and give the rest to several local charities.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Deleted. Easier just to let it go.


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## sowilson (Jul 27, 2009)

I think I would take the Bently, rip out the engine and drive train and put a tricked out Duramax Diesel / Allison Transmission in it, some air bags to lower it a bit and drop the roof line down.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Top Guns said:


> The argument about buying "American-made" versus "Import" is exceptionally muddy as many imports are actually made right here on US soil using us parts and employing US labor while domestic brands are often made with foreign parts that are crafted using cheap foreign labor.


So, so true. They're also better built by all accounts, more reliable and the staff are paid better and deliver greater productivity than GM & Ford. So, buy American, buy BMW!


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Top Guns said:


> far more patriotic than most


I won't comment on that but,



Top Guns said:


> I argue your implied definition of patriotism involving consumer choices. Patriotism has nothing whatsoever with what car you purchase. The argument about buying "American-made" versus "Import" is exceptionally muddy as many imports are actually made right here on US soil using us parts and employing US labor while domestic brands are often made with foreign parts that are crafted using cheap foreign labor.





VictorRomeo said:


> So, so true. They're also better built by all accounts, more reliable and the staff are paid better and deliver greater productivity than GM & Ford. So, buy American, buy BMW!


the above part is true, the Cadillac CTS is assembled in China and Russia, while a BMW X5 is assembled in the US.



Top Guns said:


> My lesson in patriotism comes from Adlai Stevenson:
> 
> "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."


A very rational statement, not leaning towards extreme left or right!


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Neither the Caddy, nor any $500,000 European luxury car (Bentley or other), would likely be my choice. So just on principle, with neither option being all that attractive to me, I suppose I'd rather get the Caddy and save myself $450,000 (more or less).

If I were in a financial position where $450,000 simply meant nothing to me, so that factor could be completely disregarded, chances are I'd just have my personal executive assistant ask my Transportation Chief to submit a summary of his recommended automotive fleet additions for the year, and I'd likely rubber stamp his choices.

If I were somewhere in between those two extremes - wealthy enough that $450,000 isn't worth fretting over, but not so well off as to employ a Transportation Chief to oversee my automotive fleet, my private jets, my helicopter, or my superyacht - I'd probably go for a Lincoln limousine, with the usual safety and comfort upgrades, where I'd sit in the back and my driver would be behind the wheel. Yes, Lincoln is nominally American, but that really wouldn't be a big factor in my decision.

Admittedly, I've never had to educate myself on the fine points of limousine selection. If I were to do so, I suppose I might conclude that a Rolls or Bentley or Mercedes limousine is the best choice. In which case, I guess I'd buy that.
-- 
Michael


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

12345Michael54321 said:


> Neither the Caddy, nor any $500,000 European luxury car (Bentley or other), would likely be my choice. So just on principle, with neither option being all that attractive to me, I suppose I'd rather get the Caddy and save myself $450,000 (more or less).
> 
> If I were in a financial position where $450,000 simply meant nothing to me, so that factor could be completely disregarded, chances are I'd just have my personal executive assistant ask my Transportation Chief to submit a summary of his recommended automotive fleet additions for the year, and I'd likely rubber stamp his choices.
> 
> ...





TMMKC said:


> Neither. I'd buy another Audi (maybe upgrade from an A6 to an A8), buy a couple bespoke suits, take a nice vacation with the wife and give the rest to several local charities.


With my taste in understated luxury, I'd love to be chauffeured in something like this:



Earl of Ormonde said:


> Oh my word!!! I've just fallen in love with a Caribiniera?


with the Caribinera driving of course :cool2:


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

If I had $500,000 to spend on a car, I would get:

2010 Audi R8 4.2 starting at $114,200

https://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/models/r8.html

Or, The Jaguar 2011 XFR base price $79,500

https://www.jaguar.com/us/en/#/xf/models_and_pricing/models/xfr

____________________
Under different circumstances, I would use the money to pay for my college( very expensive for pre-med students), then the rest I would put in savings. (of course, $10,000 to use to buy clothes)


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

camorristi said:


> I'd donate part of that money to the local children's hospital and part to the local sheriff's office :icon_smile_big:.


You post this in direct reply to Peak and Pine's comment about donating the money to put children through school. I'll agree with you that donating money to a hospital is an equally-good alternative; however, in my opinion, education is a far more valuable use of money than supporting police forces.

In my experience working in a court, as well as my experience with watching the news, I believe that the undereducated are more likely to commit crime, especially violent crime. Please take note of the "more likely" that I put in that statement; of course I realize that college grads can also be criminals, and that some crimes take a good deal of intelligence to pull off. But in my opinion, directing money away from education and towards policing is like trying to coral oil on the surface of water rather than stopping it from leaking at its source. It's going after the symptom, not solving the problem. Unfortunately, most politicians agree withs spending more money on locking up criminals rather than keeping them from being criminals in the first place. Reduced crime and more arrests in the short term is something a politician can use in his or her reelection campaign, while investing money in the future produces no immediate results.



Top Guns said:


> I would answer the question of the OP this way: far more patriotic than most, as I have recently retired affter serving 23 years in the US Army.
> 
> However, being a true patriot, I argue your implied definition of patriotism involving consumer choices. Patriotism has nothing whatsoever with what car you purchase. The argument about buying "American-made" versus "Import" is exceptionally muddy as many imports are actually made right here on US soil using us parts and employing US labor while domestic brands are often made with foreign parts that are crafted using cheap foreign labor.
> 
> ...


First of all, thank you for your service. :aportnoy:

Secondly, I absolutely agree with you. Patriotism is a very unimportant factor to consider when buying a car. If it comes down to two cars, an American and a foreign, that cost about the same, get about the same fuel economy, are equally fun to drive, are equally comfortable, neither looks much better than the other, maybe then is a good time to start considering patriotism.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

ZachGranstrom said:


> If I had $500,000 to spend on a car, I would get:
> 
> 2010 Audi R8 4.2 starting at $114,200


Reach a _little_ deeper and get the R8 5.2. The V10 makes a world of difference.......


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> Reach a _little_ deeper and get the R8 5.2. The V10 makes a world of difference.......


I'll remember that..... Someday, when I have Doctor Money.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

ZachGranstrom said:


> I'll remember that..... Someday, when I have Doctor Money.


Oooh! Was that a lawyer dig?!


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> Oooh! Was that a lawyer dig?!


Maybe.....but all in good fun.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

ZachGranstrom said:


> I'll remember that..... Someday, when I have Doctor Money.


If you have that range, why not get the most beautiful car money can buy today?


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

^^^^^
Nice Maserati car.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I'd use the $500,000 to fix up this old house of ours that we've been living in for almost 40 years.


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## Top Guns (Apr 29, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> First post. Welcome to you, Top Guns.


Thank you very much. I've reading the forums for some time, but really haven't had anything to post until now.



Peak and Pine said:


> The Stevenson quote is a fave of mine too, but I really wish you hadn't phrased your very first sentence here the way you did.


Well, hopefully you didn't take offense. If so, I apologize. I merely meant most people in the US (not implying anybody in particular, just my experience) actually don't consider patriotism at all, and the topic of the post equated patriotism to purchasing power.

<hijack>IF anybody here takes offense to my comment, my apologies to you too. However, perhaps one should ask oneself WHY such a statement would cause an individual to feel bad about that statement. If one is indeed a patriot, then one would not have read into that statement anything untoward.</hijack>


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

Top Guns said:


> <hijack>IF anybody here takes offense to my comment, my apologies to you too. However, perhaps one should ask oneself WHY such a statement would cause an individual to feel bad about that statement. If one is indeed a patriot, then one would not have read into that statement anything untoward.</hijack>


Remember on the grade school playground where one kid says something incendiary (e.g., "Your mother is so fat that....") to another kid, and everyone just sort of crowds around and goes silent in awe of what is about to occur? That's how this thread sort of is right now.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

I know little of luxury automobiles, but recently seeing the adverts for this one, I think I'd check it out...

Lexus LFA 2012


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

^^^^
Sadly, they're all sold-out already.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

I say that this Alfa is quite possibly the most heart achingly beautiful car ever made..... It's the first car in a long, long time that made me gasp when I saw it in the flesh....

If I had 500k to blow on a motor - it would be mine....


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

^^^
Ahh! The Alfa Romeo 8c competizione is definitely a nice car. (you have very good taste in cars)


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

Top Guns said:


> Well, hopefully you didn't take offense. If so, I apologize. I merely meant most people in the US (not implying anybody in particular, just my experience) actually don't consider patriotism at all, and the topic of the post equated patriotism to purchasing power.
> 
> <hijack>IF anybody here takes offense to my comment, my apologies to you too. However, perhaps one should ask oneself WHY such a statement would cause an individual to feel bad about that statement. If one is indeed a patriot, then one would not have read into that statement anything untoward.</hijack>


Thank you for your service. I see nothing to apologize for. You have served your (our) country. It's not just service but also sacrifice.


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

*I like cars better than countries; don't care that much for cars*

I would not buy a Bentley for the same reason I wouldn't buy a Camry: I don't hate driving. Big heavy numb cars are not the thing for those with pulses and brain waves.

As much as I hate those stupid gills on the CTS, it's a sporting rear-drive car available with a proper transmission and a fine engine and suspension. even without V-spec, I'd assume it to be more entertaining than the British luxury locomotive.

Oh, and one excellent reason to hate America is the childishly low speed limits we have. My little four-banger hatchback is underused doing the lethargic legal highway speeds. I'm taking the money to a country that lets me drive like an adult.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> Remember on the grade school playground where one kid says something incendiary (e.g., "Your mother is so fat that....") to another kid, and everyone just sort of crowds around and goes silent in awe of what is about to occur? That's how this thread sort of is right now.


Well then let me disappoint you and tell the OP that no apology is required. I think TopGuns now sees how his phrase that he's._..far more patriotic than most, as I have recently retired affter serving 23 years in the US Army_ could be construed as conveying the idea that those who had not done similar were a wee less patriotic. He obviously did not mean that and I, after spending what felt like 23 years in the Black Suit thread, was a wee too touchy when I wrote what I did earlier today. My apologies also.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Peak and Pine said:


> Well then let me disappoint you and tell the OP that no apology is required. I think TopGuns now sees how his phrase that he's._..far more patriotic than most, as I have recently retired affter serving 23 years in the US Army_ could be construed as conveying the idea that those who had not done similar were a wee less patriotic. He obviously did not mean that


And anyone inclined to feel insulted was not really a patriot anyway. At least, that's how the apology reads. Gotta love it.

Let me rush to add that, being a super-patriot, I am far less offended than most here.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Of course if that money was going on a British car then the choice is simple an old huge Jag. Probably a Mk VIII or a 420G or even a Series I XJ6....whatever, old and big Jaguars are what I like.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Relayer said:


> I know little of luxury automobiles, but recently seeing the adverts for this one, I think I'd check it out...
> 
> Lexus LFA 2012


I have a friend of mine who ordered one in Apple Green, listen to its sound: no wonder they're sold out!


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## Top Guns (Apr 29, 2010)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> Remember on the grade school playground where one kid says something incendiary (e.g., "Your mother is so fat that....") to another kid, and everyone just sort of crowds around and goes silent in awe of what is about to occur? That's how this thread sort of is right now.


Well, aside from the fact that jokes about my mother's girth would have no effect on my emotions on the playground since she was/is rail thin (kind of my point), your analogy is nowhere near the same. The original question was "How patriotic are you?" which implies that one would assess one's own patriotism, which I did. At no point did I state that "Your patriotism is so lousy that...." Which brings me to my second point: IF kids making fat jokes about my rail-thin mother emotionally affected me, why? Or more along the lines of what I had asked in my second post, if somebody else on the playground had said that his own mother was far skinnier than most mothers and I had a visceral reaction to that, wouldn't the reaction be out of line?



El Abogado said:


> Thank you for your service. I see nothing to apologize for. You have served your (our) country. It's not just service but also sacrifice.


And thank you. By your avatar I would assess that you are military or former military?



Peak and Pine said:


> Well then let me disappoint you and tell the OP that no apology is required. I think TopGuns now sees how his phrase that he's._..far more patriotic than most, as I have recently retired affter serving 23 years in the US Army_ could be construed as conveying the idea that those who had not done similar were a wee less patriotic. He obviously did not mean that and I, after spending what felt like 23 years in the Black Suit thread, was a wee too touchy when I wrote what I did earlier today. My apologies also.


Indeed I can. I was merely using my time served as a quantifiable assessment of patriotism, better than "Boy am I patriotic," or "Super duper patriotic." Patriotism can be seen in a number of ways, but I used the Stevenson quote for a reason; feeling a particular way in your heart may be wonderful for a person, but the measure of anything a man (or woman) is must be based upon actions, not what they feel deep down.

A man may feel that he is a hero, but unless he actually does something heroic, he is not. Do we find a lawyer to be a great lawyer because he feels like he is a great lawyer, or because he actually wins his cases? The same goes for patriotism. Who would consider a man patriotic if he never actually does anything patriotic?



Relayer said:


> And anyone inclined to feel insulted was not really a patriot anyway. At least, that's how the apology reads. Gotta love it.


And again, I suppose I can see how one can get to that summation, but that is not what was written nor what was intended, as already explained in this post.

Back to the idea of patriotism being tied to purchasing power or selection of vehicles, I would offer that if we use that definition, perhaps the auto that will help keep the most US auto makers employed, be safest on the streets (thereby preventing collisions with others and their property), and provide the best fuel efficiency could be viewed as the most patriotic purchase.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

You sort of lost me on the thing about your mom, so let me ask you straight out: do you believe that your 23 years in the military makes you more patriotic than someone who did not serve?


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## Top Guns (Apr 29, 2010)

No I do not. But I do believe that it is an indicator of a lifetime of dedication to this country and is therefore a viable measure of patriotism.

Benjamin Franklin was a patriot, yet he did not spend time in the Continental Army. Instead, he served as Ambassador to France and aided the American Revolution from afar. Adlai Stevenson was not a career military man (achieved the rank of Seaman Apprentice, the second lowest enlisted rank), and yet dedicated his life to serving his country.

As stated previously, there are many ways to measure patriotism.

EDIT: And to avoid what appears to me to be the inevitable critique of my use of Adlai Stevenson and Benjamin Franklin as examples of patriotism, NO, I do not feel that these are the only ways to express patriotism, nor do I feel that Government service equates to patriotism or is the only way to express patriotism.

I do feel that this thread has been well hijacked. My first post was merely answering the original question of how patriotic I feel that I am. It is my belief that my post should not affect how patriotic other people feel they are. I used my service as a unit of measure, but never claimed that it was the only way to measure patriotism.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

Top Guns said:


> Well, aside from the fact that jokes about my mother's girth would have no effect on my emotions on the playground since she was/is rail thin (kind of my point), your analogy is nowhere near the same. The original question was "How patriotic are you?" which implies that one would assess one's own patriotism, which I did. At no point did I state that "Your patriotism is so lousy that...." Which brings me to my second point: IF kids making fat jokes about my rail-thin mother emotionally affected me, why? Or more along the lines of what I had asked in my second post, if somebody else on the playground had said that his own mother was far skinnier than most mothers and I had a visceral reaction to that, wouldn't the reaction be out of line?


The analogy was bad? I dunno....it does seem like a bit of a playground circle has formed.... :icon_smile_wink:


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Top Guns said:


> No I do not. But I do believe that it is an indicator of a lifetime of dedication to this country and is therefore a viable measure of patriotism.


You've entered this forum in a manner unlike most. That's a compliment. I liked every word of your recent explanation. I think one way of looking at patriotism and the military is that with the military it's more obvious; you wear a uniform with a USA patch every day. Compare that to the paltry bunting thing I glue up once a year a few days before the 4th. In both cases these are just the showy parts. There's a depth in many of us that seeps out over the years. Yours, because of your profession, was more of a flow. I understand that.

I don't think the thread's been hijacked. The opposite maybe. When I first entered I wasn't expected to be asked about $500,000 cars. Nor was I expecting the babe that the Earl sent up. Or that Camo's mom would have a 300C and might be man-hunting, tho I'm not sure about that last part.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> Or that Camo's mom would have a 300C and might be man-hunting, tho I'm not sure about that last part.


Camo, say hello to your new daddy.( just kidding......please do not become mad Camo)


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

ZachGranstrom said:


> Camo, say hello to your new daddy.( just kidding......please do not become mad Camo)


:devil: ic12337:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

When I get cut, I bleed red, white and blue...now that's patriotic but, I wouldn't buy either of the vehicles featured in the survey. If it's not built "Ford truck tuff," it's not going to be parked in my driveway...except for the wife's Honda, of course!


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

Top Guns said:


> And thank you. By your avatar I would assess that you are military or former military?


ARNG, 27 Alpha. Former .gov as well. . . .


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Are the Bentley and the Caddy my only choices??? How about a fully restored GT500 like the one in _Gone in 60 Seconds_ 9the only thing still cool about that movie)...I'd imagine a person could pick one of those up for around 200K...then I'd have plenty left over for charity and a little bit of bad behavior :biggrin:...


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## Top Guns (Apr 29, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> You've entered this forum in a manner unlike most. That's a compliment.


Why enter a room when one can make an entrance? Thank you for the compliment.



El_Abogado said:


> ARNG, 27 Alpha. Former .gov as well. . . .


As I would have assessed from the insignia. Thank you for your service, my brother. I certainly have had much interaction with the JAG Corps. Unfortunately, that usually meant that I had a subordinate miscreant just unable to do the correct thing when required.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Thank you gentleman for your inputs, you are too kind.


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

Are Bentley gas pedals really heated?


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

I seriously doubt that, why would someone drive barefooted?! or maybe they would!


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## wiredroach (Sep 14, 2008)

Given our dependence on Middle Eastern regimes that harbor terrorists, the shocking situation in the Gulf of Mexico, the alarming upward tick in global temperatures, the frightening expansion of our children's waistlines, and the decline of civility in a society determined to get everywhere as fast as possible, I'd submit that this might be the most patriotic choice:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
I would have readily agreed with your assessment, back when Schwinn's were still being crafted in Colorado! Are there any bikes being made in the USA, these days?


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Ellsworth does, but they cost an average of $6,000!


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

As an European luxury sedan lover, forget patriotism, I'd be in the showroom of an Audi dealer special ordering a W12 A8L and my next stop would be the Jaguar dealership ordering an XJ while the remaining can go to a charity organization serving children.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Asterix said:


> As an European luxury sedan lover, forget patriotism, I'd be in the showroom of an Audi dealer special ordering a W12 A8L and my next stop would be the Jaguar dealership ordering an XJ while the remaining can go to a charity organization serving children.


This thing pulled next to me, and it was huge. But I would settle for an Audi A8L.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

The RR Phantom is too showy but definitely a grand masterpiece as is the Bentley Mulsanne below. My limit in the hierarchy of Luxo barges is the W12 A8L.



camorristi said:


> This thing pulled next to me, and it was huge. But I would settle for an Audi A8L.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Asterix said:


> The RR Phantom is too showy but definitely a grand masterpiece as is the Bentley Mulsanne below. My limit in the hierarchy of Luxo barges is the W12 A8L.


If I had the money for a Mulsanne I would order one right away in blue, but us poor people have to ride in Cadillacs  !


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> I would have readily agreed with your assessment, back when Schwinn's were still being crafted in Colorado! Are there any bikes being made in the USA, these days?


Ellsworth as mentioned(I built a bike up two years ago on one of their frames) and also Waterford - who make gorgeous hand built frames in Wisconsin. And for a spattering of small workshops, all has gone east. Even Canondale is outsourcing most of their production to China.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

though every car I've currently owned has been American, if I was loaded I would purchase a Mercedes


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

camorristi said:


> If I had the money for a Mulsanne I would order one right away in blue, but us poor people have to ride in Cadillacs  !


 If I had the money to pay cash for a Mulsanne, I wouldn't even buy the entry level car of the Bentley family, the Flying Spur. Btw, poor people don't drive Cadillacs.


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## JakeLA (Oct 30, 2006)

i don't care about cars, and patriotism, to quote Einstein, is "loathsome nonsense."


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

JakeLA said:


> i don't care about cars, and patriotism, to quote Einstein, is "loathsome nonsense."


At least quote him correctly: "Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them."

Your paraphrasing misrepresents what he actually (is reported to have) said.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

JakeLA said:


> i don't care about cars, and patriotism, to quote Einstein, is "loathsome nonsense."


Really?!  how ungrateful and misguided of you to say that. Patriotism, is giving back what you owe your country. It's alright not to care about cars, but one must love his country actively. And quoting Einstein who happened to be a moronic thief and a plagiarist who couldn't even tie his shoes?! Come on, you know better than that.

"Ungratefulness is the very poison of manhood" (Sidney)

"An ungrateful man is like a hog under a tree eating acorns, but never looking up to see where they come from." (Dexter)


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

I wouldn't disagree that one should love one's country; in fact, I do agree with that. However, I would request that the love be not blind, and not at the expense of the human race as a whole.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

camorristi said:


> Really?!  how ungrateful and misguided of you to say that. Patriotism, is giving back what you owe your country. It's alright not to care about cars, but one must love his country actively. And quoting Einstein who happened to be a moronic thief and a plagiarist who couldn't even tie his shoes?! Come on, you know better than that.


In the interest of preserving Dr. E's reputation a bit, please see my above post, which is the complete quote and has a very different meaning that was attributed by the earlier poster's paraphrasing.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> In the interest of preserving Dr. E's reputation a bit, please see my above post, which is the complete quote and has a very different meaning that was attributed by the earlier poster's paraphrasing.


I read his full quote after I posted my reply, but still I'm not a big fan of Dr. E which is irreverent anyway.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Einstein couldn't tie his own shoes? Hmm...You forgot to also mention that he sometimes forgot to put pants on, and sometimes he'd be walking in the rain, carrying an umbrella that he failed to think about opening. Many geniuses are quirky like that. Being a genius doesn't mean you're good at everything or even have much common sense. Being a genius means you can think quickly and deeply, make connections between facts and imagine new possibilities, but usually with narrow scope.

I've never heard of Einstein being a thief, moronic or otherwise. If he was, then I guess it's a good thing he decided to focus on science instead of thievery, since he clearly wasn't a moronic scientist. I also never heard about plagiarism allegations. It would take a lot of factual, non-annectdotal real evidence to convince me of that, or of him being a thief.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

JakeLA said:


> i don't care about cars, and patriotism, to quote Einstein, is "loathsome nonsense."





camorristi said:


> Really?!  how ungrateful and misguided of you to say that. Patriotism, is giving back what you owe your country. It's alright not to care about cars, but one must love his country actively. And quoting Einstein who happened to be a moronic thief and a plagiarist who couldn't even tie his shoes?! Come on, you know better than that.
> 
> "Ungratefulness is the very poison of manhood" (Sidney)
> 
> "An ungrateful man is like a hog under a tree eating acorns, but never looking up to see where they come from." (Dexter)


Well, I guess I'm ungrateful because I am definitely not a patriotic person.:icon_smile_big:


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Einstein couldn't tie his own shoes? Hmm...You forgot to also mention that he sometimes forgot to put pants on, and sometimes he'd be walking in the rain, carrying an umbrella that he failed to think about opening. Many geniuses are quirky like that. Being a genius doesn't mean you're good at everything or even have much common sense. Being a genius means you can think quickly and deeply, make connections between facts and imagine new possibilities, but usually with narrow scope.
> 
> I've never heard of Einstein being a thief, moronic or otherwise. If he was, then I guess it's a good thing he decided to focus on science instead of thievery, since he clearly wasn't a moronic scientist. I also never heard about plagiarism allegations. It would take a lot of factual, non-annectdotal real evidence to convince me of that, or of him being a thief.


Have you read (Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist by Christopher Jon Bjerknes)? If not, I recommend you do so. He was a genius for sure, a genius in con and make-believe art.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

ZachGranstrom said:


> Well, I guess I'm ungrateful because I am definitely not a patriotic person.:icon_smile_big:


By patriotic I don't mean extreme prejudice towards anything foreign. It simply means appreciating the gifts this land has given you, if you don't know that, I suggest you move to a third world country and live there for a year. When people hear the term patriotism, they start thinking "I hate the government, why should I be patriotic?", I don't think further explanation is needed. Do not assume you were entitled to everything you were given, even small things like paved roads or voting rights cost many men their lives. Appreciating those things is called patriotism.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

camorristi said:


> By patriotic I don't mean extreme prejudice towards anything foreign. It simply means appreciating the gifts this land has given you, if you don't know that, I suggest you move to a third world country and live there for a year. When people hear the term patriotism, they start thinking "I hate the government, why should I be patriotic?", I don't think further explanation is needed. Do not assume you were entitled to everything you were given, even small things like paved roads or voting rights cost many men their lives. Appreciating those things is called patriotism.


I understand what you mean and in reality, I do appreciate this nation, but I still don't like/show any form of patriotism to this nation or any nation. So, that means I don't sing the star spangled banner or pledge the allegiance*......but, you know what make this country great is that I don' have to if I don't want to.

*I don't do any of these patriotic acts because of religious beliefs......but I have the freedom to practice my beliefs and my religion.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

ZachGranstrom said:


> I understand what you mean and in reality, I do appreciate this nation, but I still don't like/show any form of patriotism to this nation or any nation. So, that means I don't sing the star spangled banner or pledge the allegiance*......but, you know what make this country great is that I don' have to if I don't want to.
> 
> *I don't do any of these patriotic acts because of religious beliefs......but I have the freedom to practice my beliefs and my religion.


You said you do appreciate this nation, then you have some sort of patriotism. I never said you have to show any form of patriotism like some selfish politicians do, it's the personal patriotic beliefs and doing what's in your country's best interest that matter.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
ZachG, while I am not sure that I have any right to be, I am surprisingly disappointed to read that! Careers in the USAF and Federal law enforcement afforded me fairly in-depth glimpses of seventeen other nations and almost every state in this wonderful Union of ours. Indeed, we are far from perfect but, we seem always striving to get better. The bad character I have unfortunately seen displayed within the borders of this great nation of ours, pales in comparison to the atrocities I've seen occurring locations claimed by some of the other nations I have been assigned in or had the opportunity to visit. Before you so quickly swear off patriotism, as a point of focus in your young life, perhaps you should try to get out and see some of the world. I hear the Army is looking for a "few good men!" 

PS: I get a lump in my throat and the back of throat and my neck tingles every time I see our flag unfurled and blowing in a strong breeze!


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> ZachG, while I am not sure that I have any right to be, I am surprisingly disappointed to read that! Careers in the USAF and Federal law enforcement afforded me fairly in-depth glimpses of seventeen other nations and almost every state in this wonderful Union of ours. Indeed, we are far from perfect but, we seem always striving to get better. The bad character I have unfortunately seen displayed within the borders of this great nation of ours, pales in comparison to the atrocities I've seen occurring locations claimed by some of the other nations I have been assigned in or had the opportunity to visit. Before you so quickly swear off patriotism, as a point of focus in your young life, perhaps you should try to get out and see some of the world. I hear the Army is looking for a "few good men!"


To concur, this ginny (me) is too skinny to be in the Armed Forces :icon_smile_big:, but I've traveled to and lived in more than 15 countries and I know that your point about this nation's imperfections compared to other nations is very true. Most of the people that do not appreciate this nation haven't even been North or South of the border. I wish if you'd expanded a bit more.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> ZachG, while I am not sure that I have any right to be, I am surprisingly disappointed to read that! Careers in the USAF and Federal law enforcement afforded me fairly in-depth glimpses of seventeen other nations and almost every state in this wonderful Union of ours. Indeed, we are far from perfect but, we seem always striving to get better. The bad character I have unfortunately seen displayed within the borders of this great nation of ours, pales in comparison to the atrocities I've seen occurring locations claimed by some of the other nations I have been assigned in or had the opportunity to visit. Before you so quickly swear off patriotism, as a point of focus in your young life, perhaps you should try to get out and see some of the world. I hear the Army is looking for a "few good men!"
> 
> PS: I get a lump in my throat and the back of throat and my neck tingles every time I see our flag unfurled and blowing in a strong breeze!


I'm sorry that my comment disappointed you,but I appreciate you writing a very good comment......

On a side note:I could never join the army because my mom would literally go to any country that I'm at, and drag me out of the Army......I wish I was kidding, but she would.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

I've said this since 1997 (when I bought my first "new" car).

"I'll drive Saturns until I drive Cadilacs."

I'm not opposed to cars of foreign manufacture, however I do lean towards domestic wherever possible. I don't think it's a matter of patriotism though, but sound economic practice.

Patriotism is something "quieter" and more subtle. Though... the original _Italian Job_ movie uses economic stimulus as a form of patriotic expression.


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't pay a lot of attention to where a car manufacturer happened to be founded a hundred years ago. Neither do the manufacturers. I have a Taurus. Most of it was made in Canada. My wife's VW was made mostly in Mexico. More of a Honda may be made in the US than a Chrysler. Some years ago, I heard from a UAW executive that a Toyota and a Chevy were being assembled on the same assembly line by UAW workers in Detroit. The UAW has a simple formula: if it's assembled by UAW members (regardless of where the parts came from or what the brand is), it's American. For the rest of us, it's not so clear. If you want to buy American, there's no such thing as an "American" car - look at the assembly labels and decide how much "American" you're willing to accept - 40%? 60%?


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

JerseyJohn said:


> Some years ago, I heard from a UAW executive that a Toyota and a Chevy were being assembled on the same assembly line by UAW workers in Detroit.


Yes, that's true. For some time, the Toyota Corolla and Chevy Nova were the same car. After that, the Corolla and Geo Metro (I believe it was the Metro, may have been another Geo) were the same car. But not really the same. Toyota picked the ones they were willing to put the Toyota name on, and gave the rejects to GM.


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## Top Guns (Apr 29, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> ZachG, while I am not sure that I have any right to be, I am surprisingly disappointed to read that! Careers in the USAF and Federal law enforcement afforded me fairly in-depth glimpses of seventeen other nations and almost every state in this wonderful Union of ours. Indeed, we are far from perfect but, we seem always striving to get better. The bad character I have unfortunately seen displayed within the borders of this great nation of ours, pales in comparison to the atrocities I've seen occurring locations claimed by some of the other nations I have been assigned in or had the opportunity to visit. Before you so quickly swear off patriotism, as a point of focus in your young life, perhaps you should try to get out and see some of the world. I hear the Army is looking for a "few good men!"
> 
> PS: I get a lump in my throat and the back of throat and my neck tingles every time I see our flag unfurled and blowing in a strong breeze!


While I appreciate your post, it is actually the Marine Corps that is looking for a few good men. As some of my fellow Soldiers have stated in the past, they are STILL looking!

Military service does not breed patriotism, but I appreciate your point.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Top Guns said:


> While I appreciate your post, it is actually the Marine Corps that is looking for a few good men. As some of my fellow Soldiers have stated in the past, they are STILL looking!
> 
> Military service does not breed patriotism, but I appreciate your point.


Speaking of marines, HBO's Generation Kill is an interesting drama.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

camorristi said:


> To concur, this ginny (me) is too skinny to be in the Armed Forces :icon_smile_big:, but I've traveled to and lived in more than 15 countries and I know that your point about this nation's imperfections compared to other nations is very true. Most of the people that do not appreciate this nation haven't even been North or South of the border. I wish if you'd expanded a bit more.


LOL, If I may paraphrase Lt Gen. Hal Moore, "I was skinny once...and young!"  Sorry for the lack of details but, I crafted the response you quote, sitting before this keyboard and looking up at the a couple of sizable shadow boxes containing memorabilia from my two primary careers (the family refers to it as my "jobs in a box" wall), attempting to resurrect memories, some of which are 40+ years old. Also I wanted to avoid crafting a post that might prove offensive to forum members from some of those other countries. Suffice it to say, we all have our demons, with which we respectively must wrestle!


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> Yes, that's true. For some time, the Toyota Corolla and Chevy Nova were the same car. After that, the Corolla and Geo Metro (I believe it was the Metro, may have been another Geo) were the same car. But not really the same. Toyota picked the ones they were willing to put the Toyota name on, and gave the rejects to GM.


 It was actually the Corolla and the Geo Prism.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

ZachGranstrom said:


> I'm sorry that my comment disappointed you,but I appreciate you writing a very good comment......
> 
> On a side note:I could never join the army because my mom would literally go to any country that I'm at, and drag me out of the Army......I wish I was kidding, but she would.


ZachG: Your comment about your mom's objection to your serving in the military resurrected a similar memory of mine and gave me a good chuckle. A long time ago in a State far, far away from 'Hoosierville,' I was presented with a similar dilemma. As a senior in HS and holding Army and Air Force ROTC scholarship offers, an appointment to West Point and an alternate appointment to the Air Force Academy; I got myself all spun-up (with a bit of help from the local Army recruiter) over the Army's helicopter flight training program. I was ready to throw away the college offers in hand and join the Army right out of high school. My sainted, late (and in my opinion, great) Mom was absolutely certain that I had lost my mind and needed to be brought back to my senses. Her response was, to tell me, that if I was intent on being that much of a fool (to throw away all those educational opportunities) and was that intent on getting over to Vietnam, trying to be a hero and, probably, getting myself killed in the process, that I could consider the Army as my home and that I shouldn't plan on coming back to Lock Haven, Pa, until my enlistment was up and I was completely out of the Army.

To make a long story just a little less long, I declined the enlistment offer, cashed in the Air Force ROTC scholarship at The Pennsylvania State University and...the rest is history. I was really angry at my Mom back then but, in retrospect, she was right and I was being young and stupid back then! LOL, Things are different now...these days, I'm older and not quite as stupid!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Top Guns said:


> While I appreciate your post, it is actually the Marine Corps that is looking for a few good men. As some of my fellow Soldiers have stated in the past, they are STILL looking!
> 
> Military service does not breed patriotism, but I appreciate your point.


LOL, thanks for the correction. I guess I was so busy "aiming high" with my references to popular military service recruiting slogans, that I missed my mark, "failing to be, all that I could have been" in my efforts to convince our young Jedi to sign up for something that's, well, "more than a job, it's an adventure!" Indeed, "every day is a holiday, every meal is a picnic and every paycheck is a small fortune!" 

Have a great day!


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> LOL, If I may paraphrase Lt Gen. Hal Moore, "I was skinny once...and young!"  Sorry for the lack of details but, I crafted the response you quote, sitting before this keyboard and looking up at the a couple of sizable shadow boxes containing memorabilia from my two primary careers (the family refers to it as my "jobs in a box" wall), attempting to resurrect memories, some of which are 40+ years old. Also I wanted to avoid crafting a post that might prove offensive to forum members from some of those other countries. Suffice it to say, we all have our demons, with which we respectively must wrestle!


I salute you for your service officer :aportnoy:! It's a habit of mine to salute military officers whenever I bump into one.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

camorristi said:


> To concur, this ginny (me) is too skinny to be in the Armed Forces :icon_smile_big:,


LOL. It's never too late. I was 106lbs & 5'6" when I shipped to MCRD San Diego back in 1994. They slapped 26 pounds on me over the following 13 weeks.

Then again, even now I get "You were a Marine?!?" and i have to respond with "yah, they make us in bite size too."

There was an old Admirals quote which referred to each of the armed services as breeds of dogs. Marines were likened to two breeds, Rottweilers & Dobermans. Big & Mean, and Skinny & Mean.


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## Top Guns (Apr 29, 2010)

And I was 6'0" and 126 lbs. My biggest muscle was my elbow. My mother had to tie knots in my legs so I'd have knees. And the Army shrunk me 3" (on my paperwork and ID card) so I'd make minimum weight.

By the time I left service three years later, I had packed on a WHOPPING 24 lbs, effectively weighing in at 6'1" and 150lbs. Still a tad "slender."

Regardless of mass, if you can do the job, you can do the job.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
LOL. When first entering on active duty, I stood at 6'0" and weighed 192 pounds, just seven pounds away from being determined as overweight, based on the maximum weight allowed (for that height) on the weight charts. With a chest measure of 44" and a waist measure of 30", I was sent to see the medics to determine if I should be watched as a possible candidate for the "fat-boy" (their term) program. The flight surgeon came in and said "you don't look fat. Are you fat?" and he threw me out of his office. Some people wouldn't be happy, even if you hung-em with a brand new rope!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

I got caught "underweight" a few times. Nothing like eating two dozen bananas, and as much water as you can hold. 

Shortly after I got married, I ended up with Bell's palsy, and the Docs put me on steroids for 6 weeks, which packed on ALOT of weight (only wish it was muscle!) which kept me in regs the rest of my time.


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## Pirendeus (Jul 17, 2009)

I'd have to buy a car that would work on the autobahn.


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## beherethen (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't feel as patriotic today as I did when Bush was in office. If I had to buy a car, I'd get a Smart Car, just because It parks easily.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Just got myself a new Caddy, guess my patriotism is at peak :icon_smile_big:. And no comments on my RICO shoes !


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
+1. IMHO you have made an excellent choice...very American, with parts made in 17 different countries!


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Can't have a Caddy without a Lincoln :icon_smile_wink:


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

camorristi said:


> Just got myself a new Caddy, guess my patriotism is at peak :icon_smile_big:. And no comments on my RICO shoes !


Unless I have "misunderestimated" (Hey, someone mentioned Bush) your age, that's an unusual choice. At least in my experience in my neck of the woods, very few young people buy that variety of Cadillac. You see young people in CTSs and Escalades, but the "old school" models (DTS/STS) seem to be solely for the social security set. Lovely car regardless.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> Unless I have "misunderestimated" (Hey, someone mentioned Bush) your age, that's an unusual choice. At least in my experience in my neck of the woods, very few young people buy that variety of Cadillac. You see young people in CTSs and Escalades, but the "old school" models (DTS/STS) seem to be solely for the social security set. Lovely car regardless.


I am 22-24, and yes the DTS is mostly driven by retired folks. The CTS is more like a Japanese car that doesn't deliver what Japanese cars do, while the DTS is an American classic with more passion and history behind it. Thanks!


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

My take on Cadillacs is that the CTS is more like a _European_ car at a better price.

The STS always seemed to me to be targeted at a younger demographic than the DTS, although not as young as the CTS is.

I remember this one time, at a gas station, there was this cream-white Escalade stopped next to me on the other side of the pump. It had big chrome wheels and some other aftermarket touches. A white guy came out of the gas station, got in the Escalade, and drove away. Then a black guy came out and walked over to the car behind me, and as he was opening the passenger door, another black guy, who was pumping gas into that car, said to the first something about a white guy getting into that Escalade and "that's just wrong".


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

JJR512 said:


> My take on Cadillacs is that the CTS is more like a _European_ car at a better price.
> 
> The STS always seemed to me to be targeted at a younger demographic than the DTS, although not as young as the CTS is.
> 
> I remember this one time, at a gas station, there was this cream-white Escalade stopped next to me on the other side of the pump. It had big chrome wheels and some other aftermarket touches. A white guy came out of the gas station, got in the Escalade, and drove away. Then a black guy came out and walked over to the car behind me, and as he was opening the passenger door, another black guy, who was pumping gas into that car, said to the first something about a white guy getting into that Escalade and "that's just wrong".


Agree that STS is for people merely approaching social security.  Also agree that the CTS targets the German rivals.

Funny story about the Escalade!


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> My take on Cadillacs is that the CTS is more like a _European_ car at a better price.
> 
> The STS always seemed to me to be targeted at a younger demographic than the DTS, although not as young as the CTS is.
> 
> I remember this one time, at a gas station, there was this cream-white Escalade stopped next to me on the other side of the pump. It had big chrome wheels and some other aftermarket touches. A white guy came out of the gas station, got in the Escalade, and drove away. Then a black guy came out and walked over to the car behind me, and as he was opening the passenger door, another black guy, who was pumping gas into that car, said to the first something about a white guy getting into that Escalade and "that's just wrong".


I can understand the black guys' unapproval of that white guy's Escalade, thanks to rap videos. The CTS looks better than any European or Japanese car, but its sports seats are very uncomfortable.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

camorristi said:


> The CTS looks better than any European or Japanese car, but its sports seats are very uncomfortable.


Sorry, but WHAT?! The CTS - and sorry to all you lovely North Americans that drive them - is, well, it hurts my European eyes....

Europe leads the world when it comes to automotive style, design, engineering, quality and passion.... End of...!


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

VictorRomeo said:


> Sorry, but WHAT?! The CTS - and sorry to all you lovely North Americans that drive them - is, well, it hurts my European eyes....
> 
> Europe leads the world when it comes to automotive style, design, engineering, quality and passion.... End of...!


...and America leads the world when it comes to everything else . Okay, how about "the CTS is the best looking American car in production today"?


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

VictorRomeo said:


> Sorry, but WHAT?! The CTS - and sorry to all you lovely North Americans that drive them - is, well, it hurts my European eyes....
> 
> Europe leads the world when it comes to automotive style, design, engineering, quality and passion.... End of...!


Yeah, Mercedes is really leading the world with their new E-Class. People used to say that the Japanese were copying the Germans. Well, take a look at the front of the 2009 Mercedes E-Class:









Then take a look at the front of a 2006 Lexus GS:









Even the backend of the E-Class looks like an amalgamation of various Japanese cars:


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Yeah, Mercedes is really leading the world with their new E-Class. People used to say that the Japanese were copying the Germans. Well, take a look at the front of the 2009 Mercedes E-Class:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, there you go :cool2:.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

camorristi said:


> ...and America leads the world when it comes to everything else


You wish!


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

If the CTS in the Caddy stable is the best there is, well there's nothing to worry about. And just to be fair I do agree about the e-class. Shocking looking car. Whatever about the front, those haunched rear arches have destroyed the look of that car.

But, and there always is a but.... and let's focus on saloons (sedans in US parlance) look at the _*best *_currently from MB - CLS, BWM - new 5, Audi - new A8, Maserati - Quattroporte, Jaguar - XF, Volvo - new S60 and even the re-emerged SAAB. Now let's head to the lower divisions.... we have VW - new Phaeton, Alfa Romeo, Skoda - Superb (yes even Skoda make a **** looking car), SEAT - Exeo etc.....

Finally, I'd take that ugly 'ol E or Lexus over a Caddy any day!


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

VictorRomeo said:


> If the CTS in the Caddy stable is the best there is, well there's nothing to worry about.


I don't know if I'd say the CTS is the best Cadillac. It depends on what kind of car you want. But you're right, there's nothing to worry about: Cadillac has finally established itself--no, scratch that, finally [returned[/i]--as a worthy competitor with cars as good as, or better than, some of the so-called "better" cars from Europe and Japan but at better prices.


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