# The Longevity of Shirts - A Short Treatise



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I am often quizzed regarding how many wearings one should expect from a shirt. Thanks to the abilities of my new Nikon D-80, I have recently had the ability to collect some visual evidence of my contentions.

* Synopsis of contentions; Make:*
Shirts should be well-made with adequate stitch count of at least 14 s.p.i.
Fabric should be woven slowly at proper loom speed, generally found primarily in Swiss and Italian mills
Cotton yarns should be carefully spun of Egyptian or Sea Island cotton and well-mercerized
For the finer cottons, yarns are preferably singed as well
Final weaving yarns should be plied at least 2x2

* Synopsis of contentions; Laundering:*
Good powdered detergent such as unphuckedwith Tide (no scent, no bleach, no mountain spring, no ...)
Use a borax based bar soap (Octagon; Kirkman) with brush for collar ring and stain removal in advance
Wash warm or, preferably, cold in the machine. You could also take it down to the river and use a washboard if you'd prefer. Or beat it with rocks. Personally, I prefer the machine ... but I know there are a number of you out there who are enamored of "handwork". Rock on ...
Dry without heat. That doesn't mean "low" heat. It means NO heat. Tumble dry is fine if your dryer has a no-heat setting.
Agitate while drying. Huh? That means either hang on a line in a breeze or tumble-dry no heat. Why? Lay on the beach for eight hours to dry yourself after swimming. You'll feel stiff as a board and cranky as sh**. Your shirt is no different! Instead, play a bit of volleyball on the beach while your suit dries. Don't you feel alive, limber, and ready to go? Can't duplicate the conditions in your urban apartment? Why? You don't own a fan or can't position a coat rack in front of your A/C? 
As your shirt is drying, talk to it. Why? No reason. Just wanted to see if you were paying attention.
No starch. Why? Cuz.

* Evidence of contentions:*
This first shirt was created in February, 1994. It has been worn and laundered approximately once monthly since then. You should particularly note:
The condition of the collar points
The condition of the corners of the cuffs
The lustre remaining on the Mother-of-Pearl buttons
The lack of many loose threads in any of the buttonholes
The original cross-stitching attaching the buttons
​
This second shirt was created in June, 1995. It has been worn and laundered approximately once monthly since then. You should particularly note:
The condition of the collar points
The condition of the corners of the cuffs
The lustre remaining on the Mother-of-Pearl buttons
The lack of many loose threads in any of the buttonholes
The original cross-stitching attaching the buttons
The small wine stain on the right chest :-( 
A bit of evidence of wear on the top outer edge of the center placket
​
I have a much older shirt, circa 1985, which I shall be bringing for inspection to the Collection of Sartorial Excellence. Though the majority of the shirt remains in good condition, my client reached for something way beyond his grasp and tore the sleeve fabric where it joins the shirt.

In the arena of properly cared-for high-end shirts, the above are far from anomalies. Rather, they are par-for-the-course. It should be noted that 20 years of fine shirt care can easily be completely wiped out by one tortuous hotel laundering. Therefore, if the longevity of your good shirts is meaningful to you, you'll either carry a sufficient number when you travel or keep a set of less valuable ones in your luggage.


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Wow - amazing. This is dangerous though - I may now buy ultra-expensive shirts on the same flimsy premise that I buy EGs - "Ya, well they cost a lot, but they last, like, 15-20 years"

Panzer


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Panzeraxe said:


> Wow - amazing. This is dangerous though - I may now buy ultra-expensive shirts on the same flimsy premise that I buy EGs - "Ya, well they cost a lot, but they last, like, 15-20 years"
> 
> Panzer


Not that that was the point or anything.


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## gordy (Jan 12, 2007)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> In the arena of properly cared-for high-end shirts, the above are far from anomalies. Rather, they are par-for-the-course. It should be noted that 20 years of fine shirt care can easily be completely wiped out by one tortuous hotel laundering. Therefore, if the longevity of your good shirts is meaningful to you, you'll either carry a sufficient number when you travel or keep a set of less valuable ones in your luggage.


Do you have any recommendations on what to do after wearing a shirt on a very hot day where one perspires more than usual? I like to launder my shirts quickly in such cases, or if that's not practical, leave them soaking in a tub of soapy water until they can be laundered. I once wore a shirt and forgot about it, leaving in in my luggage for a few months. When I discovered it, it was hopelessly stained due to sweat and oils having stayed on the fabric for such a long time and no amount of cleaning/laundry ever got it back to it's original state. When on travel, it's naturally impossible to carry around a tub of soapy water for my shirts, so I'm currently only left at the mercy of hotel laundering. I don't mind leaving a shirt out for a couple of days that I've worn, but when away from home for longer trips I worry about lingering oils on the fabric damaging the shirt.


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

> Good powdered detergent such as unphuckedwith Tide (no scent, no bleach, no mountain spring, no ...)


Alex,

Thanks so much. I try to practice good shirt care--mine have never seen a dryer--but if you wouldn't mind a few questions...

1) I get the no additives--I've been using all free clear for years--but why powdered? Does it make a difference as opposed to liquid?

2) Can the borax soap be used safely even w/ brighly colored shirts? I'm always afraid of fading the collar if I rub too hard...


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

The "powder" in powdered detergent actually contains small particles of a mildly abrasive sort which do not dissolve. Instead, these little "scrubbers" ... well ... the *scrub*! This is not the case with liquid detergents.

As far as to borax soap, you might want to test it on the tail of the shirt. But, frankly, in too many decades of washing shirts I have *never* had the borax affect the colors of a shirt. On the other hand, a soft-medium bristle toothbrush is best. A really firm brush most certainly can damage fabric if brushed too hard.

BTW, you won't find Kirkman. They don't make it any longer. Its greatest advantage was that they mixed in a bit of sand or pumice - never could figure out which. Those little abrasive particles really did a better job than Octagon. :-(

Everyone should email Colgate Palmolive and tell them we want our Kirkman back!


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## choubix (Jul 31, 2005)

i've been to the river a series of time, washing my clothes as always been a moment of pleasure for me... like fishing with my bare hands with my brothers bears...

and when I dry my shirt I talk to them and lsiten to mozart at the same time.

this way my shirts are always very happy... 



rather good condition for shirts made more than 10 years ago!!


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## Taxler (Oct 22, 2006)

I rather like the scent of Mountain Fresh Tide, and if the price I have to pay for the peace and tranquility imparted by said aroma is a few less wearings, I'm happy to do so. 

Alex, How do you feel about scented fabric sheets added to the dryer?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Taxler said:


> I rather like the scent of Mountain Fresh Tide, and if the price I have to pay for the peace and tranquility imparted by said aroma is a few less wearings, I'm happy to do so.
> 
> Alex, How do you feel about scented fabric sheets added to the dryer?


I confess to having tried Mountain Fresh. I find no operative difference between it and the Regular Unscented. But because I also launder for clients, I don't feel it appropriate to return anything but odorless shirts to them. In this regard, we even go so far as to prohibit smoking or eating in the laundry room and the delivery vehicle.

As for sticking those fabric sheets in the dryer, they tend to generate a bit of lint. Not surprisingly, the Swiss and Italian 2x2 cottons shed virtually nothing in that regard. Once lint gets on a shirt, my presser then has to spend a great deal of time with a lint roller removing all traces. She hates it. And if you've ever spent 12 hours working in the same room as a p/o'd 60 year-old Latin woman you would easily understand my recalcitrance.


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## Ofishbein (Aug 3, 2005)

I have been wearing nothing but Ascot Chang MTM shirts for about the past 8 years and am just getting to the point that some wear is showing on the cuffs and collar points on one of my shirts (end-on-end fabric). It has been through well over 100 washings and held up very well. Others have just as many wearings and washings with little or no wear showing.

When I made my first purchase I asked Tony (Wilshire Blvd. location) how to care for them. he simply said to wash them at home, let them dry naturally and NEVER use starch. I go a bit further and spray the collar with Shout before throwing them in the hamper and - despite the objections I am sure will be forthcoming - I have NO stains whatsover and the shirts hold up amazingly well.

My point is, buying good quality MTM shirts is definitely worth the extra cost considering the longevity I have experienced and the perfect fit. I would never go back to OTR except for casual wear.

Alex - Sorry I haven't been able to try yours out but I live in LA and AC works well for me. But one of these days if I am in the neighborhood . . .


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Ofishbein, have you tried Anto in Beverly Hills? Doesn't sounds like your looking for a new shirtmaker but from what I have read here, they sound pretty darn good.


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## In medio stat virtus (Jan 3, 2006)

gordy said:


> Do you have any recommendations on what to do after wearing a shirt on a very hot day where one perspires more than usual? I like to launder my shirts quickly in such cases, or if that's not practical, leave them soaking in a tub of soapy water until they can be laundered.


If traveling, I air the shirt as much as possible and back home I would soak it in water mixed with white vinegar. In summer I sometimes do the same (water + vinegar) when back from work. I think the vinegar nullify the acidity of sweat.

When shirts are more dirty (collar and cuffs rings) brush with soap or baby shampoo and sometimes leave in water with oxyclean. I avoid the later step as much as possible as I suspect oxyclean to be hard on textile and dye. NOte I only wear light colors (white and light blue).

edit: If staying long enough at the hotel, I would even soak my shirt of the day for half an hour or so and then let it dry on a hanger. Not in the perspective of wearing it a second time of course, but to avoid stain set in.


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## gordgekko (Nov 12, 2004)

Just writing to thank you Alex. What a great post!


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## clothesbunny (Apr 27, 2005)

*shrinkage*

The problem I have always had with shirts, casual and dress, is with shrinkage. They seem to shrink a very little bit every time they are washed so they end up being too small before they ever have a chance to wear out. I have never gone the custom route, but I haven't ever bought cheap shirts either.

About six months ago, I started having everything washed cold, and that seems to have helped, but it's hard to say.

It gets downright frustrating to constantly look in the mirror and discover my sleeves over my wrists. Does anyone have any wisdom or advice to impart on the subj.?


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

clothesbunny said:


> It gets downright frustrating to constantly look in the mirror and discover my sleeves over my wrists. Does anyone have any wisdom or advice to impart on the subj.?


No but I've since gone to cold water washing and line drying all my dress shirts after having the same problem. Assuming the shirts are the right length to begin with.

I'd also note that while I used to use spray starch, I've found that if you never use it, life is much better.

-spence


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> The "powder" in powdered detergent actually contains small particles of a mildly abrasive sort which do not dissolve. Instead, these little "scrubbers" ... well ... the *scrub*! This is not the case with liquid detergents....BTW, you won't find Kirkman. They don't make it any longer. Its greatest advantage was that they mixed in a bit of sand or pumice - never could figure out which. Those little abrasive particles really did a better job than Octagon. :-(


Given all the care to protect the shirt fabric, the idea of abrasive, non-dissolving, sand or pumice "scrubbers" seems a bit counterintuitive to me. While I have no doubt they might be more effective at cleaning, it just sounds as if they would take a greater toll on the fabric -- and consequently the longevity -- of the shirt.


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

> The problem I have always had with shirts, casual and dress, is with shrinkage.


I've never experienced shrinkage. Well, at least not w/ my shirts. Cold water and line drying always is the trick. It's really the heat of the dryer that does it in.



> sand or pumice "scrubbers" seems a bit counterintuitive to me. While I have no doubt they might be more effective at cleaning, it just sounds as if they would take a greater toll on the fabric -- and consequently the longevity -- of the shirt.


Medwards, I'm glad you said this. I completely believe Alex, but perhaps for those of us wearing lesser shirts, it can't hurt to be overcareful? I go so far as front load, delicate cycle, w/ a one-day presoak I got from Alex, though I'm a still a bit scared to chance warm water...

Unless I spill wine on my shirts, the only part that really gets "dirty" (as opposed to just sweaty) is the collars and cuffs. Makes me understand why they used to be detachable. Ofishbein, has the color and fabric held up where you've shouted it?


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## giff74 (Jan 15, 2007)

I am sure this could construed as a dumb question, but here goes.

If you apply no starch at all, how do you keep your shirts from becoming a wrinkled mess by noon? I have enjoyed what I consider nice MTM shirts from my tailor and Tom James, and even in these better materials I dont see how they wouldnt wrinkle if absolutely no starch was applied.

I spend my days, sometimes very long days, in front of clients or in planes or cars. I have often felt that some starch was required to keep me looking presentable by the end of the day.

Thanks, Giff


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## Taxler (Oct 22, 2006)

Without starch or sizing, cotton shirts will wrinkle; Fortunately, the wrinkles don't show under a jacket. If your sans jacket frequently, there's no solution other than to use sizing, accept the wrinkles, or switch to no-iron shirts.


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## giff74 (Jan 15, 2007)

Taxler said:


> Without starch or sizing, cotton shirts will wrinkle; Fortunately, the wrinkles don't show under a jacket. If your sans jacket frequently, there's no solution other than to use sizing, accept the wrinkles, or switch to no-iron shirts.


What does sizing mean?

Do you have a brand of non-iron shirt you would recommend? Or, by the time I go to a non-iron shirt have I dumbed down the process so much that I should just stick with "nicer" shirts and get them laundered and replace more often?

Thanks for helping a relative novice with his education!


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## Gruto (Jul 5, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> * Synopsis of contentions; Make:*
> Shirts should be well-made with adequate stitch count of at least 14 s.p.i.
> Fabric should be woven slowly at proper loom speed, generally found primarily in Swiss and Italian mills
> Cotton yarns should be carefully spun of Egyptian or Sea Island cotton and well-mercerized
> ...


We had a thread on Supers and durability a couple on months ago. What is your opnion on that - do thin fibers/yarns contribute to durability?


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

There are things the AK writes I accept and other things I do not accept, and that is my choice, before the tribe of the AK beats the crap out of me. That said, the ply is certainly very important. The inexpensive bespoke shirts I had made at the beginning of my sartorial experience did not weather laundering well, and they were all single ply. But construction matters not at all to the longevity of a garment, if we skip the extreme lows of Laotian slave-labor production (no offense to Laotian slaves intended).

I have all my shirts laundered: I am sure hand-washing or home-washing without the dryer would extend their life, but it would also decrease the income I have to buy more shirts. Intuitively, starch seems toxic to shirts and I avoid it. I also dislike starch so this is easy.

But the difference in longevity of a shirt is due to its material (1 or 2 ply for example, course or fine) and how you launder it (commercially or at home).

Notice the AK writes those shirts were worn once/month, which suggests you should have an adequate reserve of shirts in your wardrobe. And that goes for anything, shirts, suits, or shoes.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

More excellent knowledge sharing Alex. Thank you!

I've got maybe a dozen shirts around the ten year mark now and they look terrific due to a similar laundry regimen as Alex outlines.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

David Bresch said:


> I have all my shirts laundered: I am sure hand-washing or home-washing without the dryer would extend their life, but it would also decrease the income I have to buy more shirts. Intuitively, starch seems toxic to shirts and I avoid it. I also dislike starch so this is easy.


Don't you have this backwards? Getting a shirt properly laundered and pressed in Houston costs on the order of $7 (at least, it was $7 the last time I checked two or three years ago), and I suspect that the situation is similar in other areas of the country. Laundering my shirts myself gives me more disposable income to spend on shirts or whatever I want. Using a substandard laundry would still cost a significant amount of money, and it would decrease the lifespan of the shirts.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Thomas Fink writes that he can iron a dress shirt in no more than five minutes. Even if he's optimistic, it appears that the return on laundering your own shirts is on the order of $50 an hour after taxes.


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

*advice*

Your shirt is gorgeous. I would like to ask the expert a few questions, so that i can get a good tailored shirt from my tailor. 
1. Is a shirt stitched by you normally have ruffles at this area? or a better way to put it is "should it have ruffles" what is the way to minimize the ruffle
2. what happens when the yoke is stitched way back?
3. Do you prefer high armholes? 
4. Should a sleeve be tapered or generous cut to the button cuff? i see a lot of blousiness in my shirts.

Also when the armhole is joined to the body do you prefer curved 1 or straight 2 join? i would like to avoid the extra meat of the cloth under the armpit. Thanks again. Your shirts are gorgeous.


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## giff74 (Jan 15, 2007)

jcusey said:


> Don't you have this backwards? Getting a shirt properly laundered and pressed in Houston costs on the order of $7 (at least, it was $7 the last time I checked two or three years ago), and I suspect that the situation is similar in other areas of the country. Laundering my shirts myself gives me more disposable income to spend on shirts or whatever I want. Using a substandard laundry would still cost a significant amount of money, and it would decrease the lifespan of the shirts.


WOW, $7 a shirt! Do they come back with gold collar stays?

I pay $1.40 a shirt and the owner of the cleaners comes on Mondays and picks our stuff up and brings it back the next Monday included in that price. He is also the best cleaner/launderer in town. I know because I have had plenty of shirts destroyed at all the others.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

giff74 said:


> WOW, $7 a shirt! Do they come back with gold collar stays?


Do the math. If you want your shirts laundered separately from those belonging to others and you want then hand-pressed, it's going to cost you. Pressing machines are death to shirts and, as far as I'm concerned, are pure evil.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Heck, in San Francisco $7 a shirt doesn't get them segregated or hand pressed. But it does get them returned with the french cuffs pressed into artistic positions that have nothing to do with their function.


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

Monday morning meeting, someone says-- Hey! Phil, nice shirt. 
Phil: Yeah my wife ironed it for me.
Myself: Too bad she killed the shirt.
Phil & all: looking perplexed at me.
Myself: (thinking) she starched the sh** out of it. IT looks like a body armor.



jcusey said:


> Do the math. If you want your shirts laundered separately from those belonging to others and you want then hand-pressed, it's going to cost you. Pressing machines are death to shirts and, as far as I'm concerned, are pure evil.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Boston has a place that will do cold wash, air dry, and hand iron for around $5.25. A few artifacts from the hand ironing so far, but on balance much superior to the shop that sends them out to be done by machine. To that place go the OCBDs.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Pasadena (CA) shirt laundry*



jcusey said:


> Do the math. If you want your shirts laundered separately from those belonging to others and you want then hand-pressed, it's going to cost you. Pressing machines are death to shirts and, as far as I'm concerned, are pure evil.


I currently still use the $1.40 local shirt laungry. (My apologies to all who like to wash and iron. I cannot stand ironing, even though I can do it competently. I do, however, enjoy polishing my shoes.)

Can anyone recommend a good shirt washing establishment in Pasadena or otherwise near Sierra Madre?

I have observed a French hand laundry in the neighborhood of Peet's Coffee on Lake and I believe someone here mentioned it favorably a year or so ago.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Regular laundries are evil, but they are necessary. $1.50. I am sure this affects my choice of shirt, which are generally made of robust fabrics. I am quite certain, however, that I spend quite a bit less money altogether on shirts than most of the AK's clients! 

I am quite sure that regular commercial laundry is harder on shirts than AK's laundress. But if you have enough shirts, this should not matter too much. If you want a shirt that lasts it should be 2-ply and not from a super-fine fabric. But at $50/shirt I pay to Jantzen, I do not worry about math like this. By the way, longevity is not the only quality in the world, so those lovers of fine fabrics out there do not hurt me.

Material, not contruction, determines the longevity of garments. Life is inverse to the amount of cleaning.


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## giff74 (Jan 15, 2007)

jcusey said:


> Do the math. If you want your shirts laundered separately from those belonging to others and you want then hand-pressed, it's going to cost you. Pressing machines are death to shirts and, as far as I'm concerned, are pure evil.


My math never had segregated laundry in the equation. Heck I never even heard of it until now. I guess I dont take my shirts as serious as you guys, I never entertained the thought of a shirt lasting ten years either. Until the last couple years I was strictly a Menswearhouse and Macy's kind of guy and I never worried about those shirts making it more than a year or two.

Giff


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

clothesbunny said:


> The problem I have always had with shirts, casual and dress, is with shrinkage. They seem to shrink a very little bit every time they are washed so they end up being too small before they ever have a chance to wear out.


Shirt shrinkage is a recurrent theme on this board. I've never had this problem, but I never use laundries and I iron my own shirts.
I am convinced the only way to prevent your shirts getting spoilt is to look after them yourself. Shrinkage is not a problem if you wash them at 30°C, line-dry them and iron them yourself. Just make sure you stretch out the collar and the inside sleeve seam as you iron - this is important. With practice you can iron a shirt in five minutes. Good shirt makers always leave an extra half-inch to allow for shrinkage anyway.


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## Gruto (Jul 5, 2004)

Gruto said:


> We had a thread on Supers and durability a couple on months ago. What is your opnion on that - do thin fibers/yarns contribute to durability?


May I conclude that knowbody has an opinion on this?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Thomas Fink writes that he can iron a dress shirt in no more than five minutes. Even if he's optimistic, it appears that the return on laundering your own shirts is on the order of $50 an hour after taxes.


It takes me 15-20 minutes per shirt, and the results are always better than the local cleaners. They charge $7.50 per shirt for hand ironing here in Atlanta. That gets expensive in volume.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

David Bresch said:


> Regular laundries are evil, but they are necessary. $1.50. I am sure this affects my choice of shirt, which are generally made of robust fabrics. I am quite certain, however, that I spend quite a bit less money altogether on shirts than most of the AK's clients!
> 
> I am quite sure that regular commercial laundry is harder on shirts than AK's laundress. But if you have enough shirts, this should not matter too much. If you want a shirt that lasts it should be 2-ply and not from a super-fine fabric. But at $50/shirt I pay to Jantzen, I do not worry about math like this. By the way, longevity is not the only quality in the world, so those lovers of fine fabrics out there do not hurt me.


But the choices are not commercial laundry or AK's laundress. You could do it yourself. Your original contention was that sending shirts out to the laundry saved you money to buy more shirts. This is absurd. Powdered Tide probably costs less than $0.25 per load, or perhaps 2.5 cents per shirt. Obviously, water, electricity, and wear and tear on the washing machine add additional cost, but the total cost out of pocket per shirt to launder them yourself would have to be less than $0.10, which is $1.40 less than you pay to have them laundered. Assuming that you launder 5 shirts per week, this means that you would save enough money to buy 7.28 more Jantzen shirts at $50 apiece per year if you were to launder your shirts yourself, even if we ignore the shorter longevity of cheaply commercially laundered shirts.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Gruto said:


> May I conclude that knowbody has an opinion on this?


 No. You may conclude that this is one of the busiest weeks of the year in the world of menswear and that a reply will be forthcoming.


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## Gruto (Jul 5, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> No. You may conclude that this is one of the busiest weeks of the year in the world of menswear and that a reply will be forthcoming.


Great, thank you.

In the meantime I have taken the liberty to contact Alumo, maybe the best weaver of shirtings in world (right?) to ask about "Stoffe" and "Garnnummer". In logical German (see below) they answer something like:

Super 100s are thicker and heavier than Super 200s. Super 200s are more comfortable to wear, but much more expensive [so far so good, now for judgement ...]. Definitely, thicker shirtings are more resistent than lighter shirtings.

"Von: xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:[email protected]]
Gesendet: Montag, 22. Januar 2007 15:15
An: Alumo Info
Betreff: Hemdenstoffe

Sehr geerthe Alumo

Ich bin sehr interessiert in Masshemden. Können Sie mir sagen ob Hemdenstoffe mit Garnummer 100/2 ist stärker oder schwacher als 200/2 - welche Stoffe dauert am längsten?

Vielen Dank,
xxxxxxxxxx, Kopenhagen

---

Guten Tag Herr xxxxxxxx

Stoffe der Garnnummer Ne 100/2 sind dicker und schwerer als Ne 200/2. Ne 200/2 Stoffe sind angenehmer zu tragen aber viel teurer. Ein dickerer Stoff ist bestimmt resistenter als ein leichterer.

Freundliche Grüsse,
xxxxxxx"


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Alex, why is it that still air drying leaves shirts feeling so stiff? I have certainly experienced that myself but have no idea why that is. 

Does it have to do with the hard water that I imagine most washing machines use?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

jcusey said:


> Your original contention was that sending shirts out to the laundry saved you money to buy more shirts. This is absurd.


While I may agree with you ... please, jcusey ... lets not encourage others to reveal their income. :icon_smile_wink:

Alex's posts certainly encourages me to wash my better shirts at home ... if only because replacing a "favorite" can sometimes be next to impossible.

Of course, lately when I discover a particular shirt to have become a favorite ... I call and have one or two more made up. And even then ... washing them at home seems a good idea. The shirts Alex shares via the photographs look terrific for their age and number of times worn.


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Jcusey, you are not counting my time, which has a value. The amount of money I spend on the laundry is far less.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

David Bresch said:


> Jcusey, you are not counting my time, which has a value. The amount of money I spend on the laundry is far less.


Of course I am. However, I doubt very seriously that the time spent laundering your shirts would otherwise be spent earning money. Therefore, laundering your own shirts does not represent money out of pocket (except for the cost of the laundry supplies, the water, and the electricity), whereas sending them out to be laundered certainly does. Consequently, your claim that sending them out to be laundered allows you to save money with which to buy more shirts still is absurd.


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## Taxler (Oct 22, 2006)

Each person must decide how their time is best spent, and I think a case can be made both for and against laundering your own clothes. It's not unreasonable to say that the few hours/week spent ironing your own shirts might be better spent researching and managing your personal investments.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Taxler said:


> Each person must decide how their time is best spent, and I think a case can be made both for and against laundering your own clothes. It's not unreasonable to say that the few hours/week spent ironing your own shirts might be better spent researching and managing your personal investments.


Come now. If you were the mayor of a city that was facing a revenue shortfall, would police and fire services be the first things that you would propose to cut? There are plenty of men who dislike laundering and pressing their shirts and would rather spend money for the convenience of avoiding the task. That's a perfectly rational choice, but don't try to convince me that failing to make it would prevent them from monitoring their investments adequately.


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## Taxler (Oct 22, 2006)

jcusey said:


> Come now. If you were the mayor of a city that was facing a revenue shortfall, would police and fire services be the first things that you would propose to cut? There are plenty of men who dislike laundering and pressing their shirts and would rather spend money for the convenience of avoiding the task. That's a perfectly rational choice, but don't try to convince me that failing to make it would prevent them from monitoring their investments adequately.


I'm not taking a position on either side, but I am suggesting that the income derived from 3 hours of quality investment research should be more than enough to cover the laundry bill. If that's not the case, then you can spend the money you saved on laundry to pay an investment advisor.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Taxler said:


> I'm not taking a position on either side, but I am suggesting that the income derived from 3 hours of quality investment research should be more than enough to cover the laundry bill. If that's not the case, then you can spend the money you saved on laundry to pay an investment advisor.


You're presenting a false choice. It's not a choice between laundry or investment research. It's a choice of all of life's activities that can be fit into 24 hours. Realistically speaking, for most people, doing laundry themselves means watching less television or doing less leisure reading or surfing the internet less, not sacrificing work or essential financial activities.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Taxler said:


> I'm not taking a position on either side, but I am suggesting that the income derived from 3 hours of quality investment research should be more than enough to cover the laundry bill. If that's not the case, then you can spend the money you saved on laundry to pay an investment advisor.


There are times when I'm much too tired to do investment research but not too tired to iron a shirt or two.

I think the quality of laundering and ironing that you can achieve yourself with basic materials and equipment (and somewhere to hang the stuff to dry) is superior to all but the very best professional services (when you can find them).

But rather than take stuff out, why not find someone who will come in and do it at your home with your equipment. You can show them exactly what you want. If there are others with the same needs as you in the neighbourhood you can share the person's services.


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## Taxler (Oct 22, 2006)

jcusey said:


> You're presenting a false choice. It's not a choice between laundry or investment research. It's a choice of all of life's activities that can be fit into 24 hours. Realistically speaking, for most people, doing laundry themselves means watching less television or doing less leisure reading or surfing the internet less, not sacrificing work or essential financial activities.


Factoring in the relative worth of all the activities occuring over the course of a day adds far to many variables. It mutates into a debate of should you do your own laundry, wash your own car, mow your own lawn, cook your own meals, read fewer books, etc .... Too complex for me.


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

But but...it's not about money, it's about, it's about... love. I could pay the teenager down the street far less than what I could earn in the same time to play fetch w/my dog, or save potential money and time and grab a take-home pizza rather than cook my girlfriend dinner, but why?

If you truly love your shirts, taking care of them isn't a chore, it's an honor...

;-)


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

Maybe people are less busy where you live, but actually, you are wrong, time I spend doing the laundry would be time I spend making money, or would come out of time that I would have to take out of time making money (like exercise to keep me healthy or preparing for my next exam).

Come now, jcusey, you might like laundering your shirts, but you can't say that my choice is "absurd"! I am not sure how you can generalize your home economics to everyone, when each of our schedules is so different. I think this is a jcusey-ism, like the ones I have come to know and love in the past.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

David Bresch said:


> Maybe people are less busy where you live, but actually, you are wrong, time I spend doing the laundry would be time I spend making money, or would come out of time that I would have to take out of time making money (like exercise to keep me healthy or preparing for my next exam).


Oh, so you're another one of those mayors who would insist that a revenue shortfall *must* be made up from funds that go to pay for police and fire service.



> Come now, jcusey, you might like laundering your shirts, but you can't say that my choice is "absurd"! I am not sure how you can generalize your home economics to everyone, when each of our schedules is so different. I think this is a jcusey-ism, like the ones I have come to know and love in the past.


I don't begrudge anybody his choice about doing his laundry. In fact, earlier in this thread, I wrote



> There are plenty of men who dislike laundering and pressing their shirts and would rather spend money for the convenience of avoiding the task. That's a perfectly rational choice


What I object to is not the fact that you or anybody else chooses to send shirts out to be laundered but rather the fact that you choose to represent this choice as one designed to save you money so you can buy more shirts. As I have explained, this is patently absurd: the actual laundering is much more expensive commercially than when done at home; and in most cases, it reduces the lifespan of the shirt, which makes it more expensive still. And using the cliche that time is money and that any time spent laundering shirts reduces the amount of time you can spend making money is absurd unless you're one of the very few people in this country who have no leisure time. You would prefer to do other things in your leisure time than laundering and pressing your shirts. There's nothing wrong with that, but be honest about your motivations.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

So. How's the weather where you live, gents? 

I just bought 4 antique bars of Kirkman soap for $26.50. Came with 3 antique bars of Octagon thrown in for good measure. 

Now, if I can remove the ring around the collar and cuffs on 467 shirts with each Kirkman bar, how long will it be before I need to buy more? 

And what would be the cost-per-shirt for the Kirkman?

Has anyone yet bothered to write to Colgate-Palmolive asking that Kirkman again be produced? I rather doubt it. We seem to be too busy debating about .... about .... uh ... what were you fellas saying?


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## fonsh (Aug 29, 2006)

*Longevity Of Shirts - 1 Key Consideration Not Addressed*

This is directed to those of us who service our dirty laundry at home. I seriously doubt commercial establishments would give it any thought - they usually add their own inherent problems to the list, anyway.

Most municipal water is chlorinated. Tap water (your wash water) typically contains at or above the level of chlorine recommended for swimming pools, 1 to 1.5 ppm. Surely, this is enough to damage the very fibers from which our clothing is made (at least over time).

Is there a way to negate the threat? A 'whole-house' water filter would certainly accomplish this - but - those things are both bulky & expensive. Additionally, even if affordable, they are impractical for those living in "cramped quarters" (mobile homes, apartments, etc.).

An 'add-on' (inline) water filter expressly for washers would seem to be the obvious choice but I'm not aware of any such thing currently on the market.

Perhaps neutralizing the chlorine chemically would help - "here, drop this tablet in your wash water prior to adding detergent & clothes"? This would still leave the spin-rinse cycle spewing untreated water.

I'm out of ideas on this "food for thought" post. Perhaps it will elicit some interesting responses from other members.

Don


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I just came home and dug me a well. Now we launder in spring water from an artisian spring. 

As far as the inline water filters for washer use, they are available. That is what I used to use when I laundered in Manhattan. IIRC, about $200 for the metal filter/checmical cannisters and $10 monthly for filter/chemical replacement. That was at a level of laundering 100-150 shirts each week so you wouldn't need to replace filters nearly as often. Puro, I believe, is the filter manufacturer we used.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> We seem to be too busy debating about .... about .... uh ... what were you fellas saying?


Whatever it was, it was very close to Interchange discussion.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

medwards said:


> Whatever it was, it was very close to Interchange discussion.


Makes sense to me! :devil:


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## fonsh (Aug 29, 2006)

*An observation & a question*

With regard to "Dry without heat. That doesn't mean "low" heat. It means NO heat. Tumble dry is fine if your dryer has a no-heat setting."

While this is probably darned good advice, I'd like to refer to the following:

Quoted from "Cotton Fabrics Damaged By High Dryer Temperatures" (8-31-99)

(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/08/990831080157.htm)

Abrasion from the tumbling action of dryers also contributes to fabric damage. Tumbling of cotton fabrics when they are wet causes more damage than tumbling them partially dry, the study finds. Most dryers use a warm-up phase that heats and tumbles clothes while they are still wet. If clothes were tumbled only after they had partially dried, damage would be minimized, says Buisson.

My question: How does one achieve 'partially dried' clothes - place them in the dryer & let them sit there for several hours before commencing to tumble?

I'd like to focus on this & avoid the obvious "hey, line-dry & forget the hassle!"


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## johnjack11 (Oct 13, 2006)

Can you hang them in your laundry room for a while before popping them into the dryer?

Jack



fonsh said:


> With regard to "Dry without heat. That doesn't mean "low" heat. It means NO heat. Tumble dry is fine if your dryer has a no-heat setting."
> 
> While this is probably darned good advice, I'd like to refer to the following:
> 
> ...


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## GMC (Nov 8, 2006)

*A knowledgeable gent once told me ...*



Gurdon said:


> I currently still use the $1.40 local shirt laungry. (My apologies to all who like to wash and iron. I cannot stand ironing, even though I can do it competently. I do, however, enjoy polishing my shoes.)
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good shirt washing establishment in Pasadena or otherwise near Sierra Madre?
> 
> ...


... that the only diff between a regular cleaner and French laundry was about a buck a shirt more at the latter.

Which is not to say that the place you are talking about isn't fine. But the "French" means nothing.

Or maybe it means that they translate everything into euros. Maybe that's why shirts cost more than a scotch and water in California, apparently.


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## GMC (Nov 8, 2006)

*Did anybody answer the poor gent's question about "sizing?"*

Believe it's a bit like starch -- apply it to make ironing easier -- but been a long time since I've seen it.


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## GMC (Nov 8, 2006)

*the solution is simple ...*

... although it requires a LARGE upfront investment, it pays for itself over time.

I smuggle cleaning staff into the country and force them to hand clean and press my laundry in return for entry into the U.S. of A. I instruct them to wash my shirts ONLY in babies' tears, which I buy in bulk from the local orphanage. My shirts are never placed in a dryer. Instead, each shirt is held aloft by one of my staff, while another fans it with a large, natural-fiber hand fan until the point at which the desirable balance of dryness/dampness has been reached to faciliate pressing. It is at that point that the shirt is placed along a bed of linen manufactured from the Shroud of Turin and the entire team gets into the process, with each removing a perfectly polished bit of marble from the fireplace in the staff kitchen. Each applies that rock quickly and skillfully at a designated place on the shirt -- each team member always working the same section -- until the shirt is perfectly pressed. The shirt is then hung to air in a specially cordoned off, purified-air room at the Museum of Modern Art, where it is watched over by members of the Swiss Guard. A day later, the shirt is inspected by Chief of Staff (shirtings), who decides whether to release to my Minister of Transport (shirtings) or send it back through the process.

Many years into the process, I reckon my cost-per-shirt to be about 3 cents, well down from an initial outlay of roughly $62,000 each.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

GMC said:


> ... although it requires a LARGE upfront investment, it pays for itself over time.
> 
> I smuggle cleaning staff into the country and force them to hand clean and press my laundry in return for entry into the U.S. of A. I instruct them to wash my shirts ONLY in babies' tears, which I buy in bulk from the local orphanage. My shirts are never placed in a dryer. Instead, each shirt is held aloft by one of my staff, while another fans it with a large, natural-fiber hand fan until the point at which the desirable balance of dryness/dampness has been reached to faciliate pressing. It is at that point that the shirt is placed along a bed of linen manufactured from the Shroud of Turin and the entire team gets into the process, with each removing a perfectly polished bit of marble from the fireplace in the staff kitchen. Each applies that rock quickly and skillfully at a designated place on the shirt -- each team member always working the same section -- until the shirt is perfectly pressed. The shirt is then hung to air in a specially cordoned off, purified-air room at the Museum of Modern Art, where it is watched over by members of the Swiss Guard. A day later, the shirt is inspected by Chief of Staff (shirtings), who decides whether to release to my Minister of Transport (shirtings) or send it back through the process.
> 
> Many years into the process, I reckon my cost-per-shirt to be about 3 cents, well down from an initial outlay of roughly $62,000 each.


 Well Damn, Dude. That's the same way we do it. Stop spying on my personal proprietary processes (shirts)!


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## Taxler (Oct 22, 2006)

GMC said:


> *Did anybody answer the poor gent's question about "sizing?"*
> Believe it's a bit like starch -- apply it to make ironing easier -- but been a long time since I've seen it.


It's like starch only better. You can usually find it about 6" to the right or left of wherever you buy your starch.
*https://www.magicsizing.co.uk/svs.php*


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

GMC said:


> I smuggle cleaning staff into the country and force them to hand clean and press my laundry in return for entry into the U.S. of A.


Much of your process was unknown to me until your post but I've observed that smuggling cleaning staff into the country has been a staple of Beverly Hills life for decades.


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Alexander Kabbaz
> We seem to be too busy debating about .... about .... uh ... what were you fellas saying?


But Alex, wasn't it you who advised us to talk to our shirts? :icon_smile:


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## Khoa (Aug 20, 2005)

Hey Alex, do you use a front loader or a top loader?

Also, do you let the washing machine go through its spin cycle where it gets rid of all the excess water in the clothes? Or do you take them out of the machine completely wet?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Khoa said:


> Hey Alex, do you use a front loader or a top loader?


 Top. Can't open a front loader in the middle of a cycle and I do shirtmaker ... things ... to shirts at various stages of the cycle.



Khoa said:


> Also, do you let the washing machine go through its spin cycle where it gets rid of all the excess water in the clothes? Or do you take them out of the machine completely wet?


 Depending upon the size of the load, I usually repeat the spin/rinse cycle three times completely. Yes, I let the machine remove as much as possible. Centrifugal force is the gentlest mechanical method of so doing. Certainly an improvement over wringing.


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## augustin (Jan 19, 2007)

jcusey said:


> You're presenting a false choice. It's not a choice between laundry or investment research. It's a choice of all of life's activities that can be fit into 24 hours. Realistically speaking, for most people, doing laundry themselves means watching less television or doing less leisure reading or surfing the internet less, not sacrificing work or essential financial activities.


Ah, but if you could have done investment research, and instead watched TV, then the TV watching must have been worth to you at least what the time spent playing with your portfolio would have earned. Had you instead washed your shirts, then in some other time block a bit of the evidently more valuable TV will be chosen ahead of investment research, to the ultimate detriment of your pocketbook and your shirt budget. 'Course, I'd like to see that 5 minute ironing trick. *That* would be worth alot...


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## jimbabwe (Jan 15, 2006)

"You could also take it down to the river and use a washboard if you'd prefer. Or beat it with rocks."

This sentence brought back some fond memories of my time in Haiti.

One of my most vivid recollections involved seeing school girls on the way to class with the brightest white socks and blouses that I had ever seen. Stepping in and around muddy streets in their bright white attire to reach their destination was an amazing contrast and statement about human fortitude in the face of adversity.

This clothing obtains/maintains its whiteness by being washed in the streams and rivers throughout the country by children, mothers, grandmothers all stooped down and scrubbing these articles of clothing against the rocks in the riverbeds. It's another amazing sight to behold; this determination to have bright white clothing no matter the work needed to make it happen.


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## andreyb (Dec 24, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Good powdered detergent such as unphuckedwith Tide (no scent, no bleach, no mountain spring, no ...)


Sorry for an inane question from a foreighner -- do you mean this powder?

I'm asking because here in Russia it is considered as "cheaper" powder from Procter & Gamble. "Costlier", and therefore, "better" one is Ariel.

So, in truth Tide is better?

Andrey


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## In medio stat virtus (Jan 3, 2006)

andreyb said:


> Sorry for inane question from a foreighner -- do you mean this powder?
> 
> I'm asking because here in Russia it is considered as "cheaper" powder from Procter & Gamble. "Costlier", and therefore, "better" one is Ariel.
> 
> ...


Beware that products branded with similar names across countries can actually vary a lot in composition (esp. with such a marketing giant as PG I suspect). E.g. your favorite cereals might have a very different taste in their US version, even if carrying the same name.


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## Virginia Dandy (Feb 12, 2006)

[/LIST]​
[/CENTER]

I think the lack of wear on the square corners of these French cuffs is astonishing. I always understood that to be a real vulnerable spot - and a strong argument for choosing rounded corners.

I am totally spoiled in this area. I have an excellent laundry one block from my house where I am on a first-name basis with the lady who provides a de luxe "off the menu" option - separate laundering, hang dry, hand ironing, little collar-shaping/protecting widget clipped to the top button, separate bagging, etc. She has been wielding an iron professionally for decades and does a great job. If I ever move or hear that she's quitting, I plan to get an ironing lesson from her first.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I think the lack of wear on the square corners of these French cuffs is astonishing.


I agree. Alex must have some talented launderers on staff.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

andreyb said:


> Sorry for an inane question from a foreighner -- do you mean this powder?
> 
> I'm asking because here in Russia it is considered as "cheaper" powder from Procter & Gamble. "Costlier", and therefore, "better" one is Ariel.
> 
> ...


 I have never seen this package, but it looks right.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> I agree. Alex must have some talented launderers on staff.


Thank you. About Pauline, the lady who taught me to launder: She picked cotton part-time in season during her youth. The remainder of the year she worked with her mother in Columbia, South Carolina. Her mother owned a shirt laundry. Every week, she hand washed and ironed about 400 shirts with Pauline. Her washer was out in the yard and had a hand crank. Her dryer was a hand crank ... attached to a wringer mounted to the washer. Her irons (she had a few) were the cast iron kind one heats on the stove.

The overriding mantra: No catfaces!!! If there was a catface you did the entire shirt over again.

What's a catface? Almost impossible to photograph. Find out at the Collection of Sartorial Excellence, March 2nd & 3rd at The Regency on Park. (Shameless plug )


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Find out at the Collection of Sartorial Excellence, March 2nd & 3rd at The Regency on Park.


I'll try to meet you there.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I failed to mention how many years of laundering experience of which I was the honored student-recipient. Pauline was 66 when she began teaching me back in the '70's. Pauline's Mom, her mentor, passed away about 12-13 years ago while ironing a shirt. She was 104.


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

Kabbaz you gonna answer my question or what?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

bulla said:


> Your shirt is gorgeous. I would like to ask the expert a few questions, so that i can get a good tailored shirt from my tailor.


Thank you.


bulla said:


> 1. Is a shirt stitched by you normally have ruffles at this area? or a better way to put it is "should it have ruffles" what is the way to minimize the ruffle


 It needs a bit of fullness here for movement. The amount of same is determined only in the measureing fitting process. In this case, you are seeing an illusion. The way to minimize these folds is to have the client put on the shirt. It tends to look better with arms in the sleeves. These folds ("Ruffles") are minimized by properly shaping the sleeve cap.


bulla said:


> 2. what happens when the yoke is stitched way back?


 The fronts don't fall to the floor. If the yokes were not stitched that's what would happen.  
Actually, I don't understand your question. The yoke is not stitched way back. It may appear that way as the shirt is on a form, not a body, and the shot was taken looking upward.


bulla said:


> 3. Do you prefer high armholes?


Yes.


bulla said:


> 4. Should a sleeve be tapered or generous cut to the button cuff? i see a lot of blousiness in my shirts.


 That depends upon client preference and client bicep/tricep/elbow/wrist size. My personal shirts are somewhat tapered.



bulla said:


> Also when the armhole is joined to the body do you prefer curved 1 or straight 2 join? i would like to avoid the extra meat of the cloth under the armpit. Thanks again. Your shirts are gorgeous.


 I prefer neither 1 nor 2. The body shape is determined by the shape of the client. Unless the client's chest, waist, and hips are all the same size, then each of those parts of the shirt will be different sizes. You can't get from a 41" chest to a 33" waist without a curve.

If #1 is someone's concept of how to minimize fabric under the arms, they are wrong. The way to accomplish this is to make the armhole high and the chest properly fitted. Once this is done, the sleeve cap size is determined by the resulting armhole. And, again, the cap needs to be properly shaped. Please don't ask me to be more specific on how to shape the sleeve. This is one of the very rare areas of my shirt patterns which I consider proprietary and do not discuss.

Questions answered. My turn: Would you mind going back into Photoshop and putting the Copyright notice back on the photograph? Thanks.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Virginia Dandy said:


> [/list]​
> [/center]
> 
> I think the lack of wear on the square corners of these French cuffs is astonishing. I always understood that to be a real vulnerable spot - and a strong argument for choosing rounded corners.
> ...


Iron the cuff corners on the back *only*. *Never* let the iron touch the front corner of the cuff where the bump is. Trade secret ... *revealed*. Now they're gonna throw me out of the Ironer's Guild.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

A Member's PM said:


> Hi Alex
> 
> A few quick questions for you regarding the two shirts shown in your 'Shirts Longevity' post:
> 
> ...


Hey guys, be fair to your fellow members. Share the questions and answers on the forum please (unless it has to do with buying something).

1. It is, when worn, a pretty wide spread but nowhere near a cutaway. We don't have collar "types" as each collar style is made from scratch for the client, but that is the general category of this one.

2. The fabric of the second shirt is the Alumo 2x2 170's, Stripe #5009, Color #256. You could call it a pencil stripe ... if you had a very accurate pencil.  It is one of the most popular stripes I have ever carried and been a stock item since the mid-1980's.

Thank you for your kind words about the stitching.


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

Dr KABBAZ...that was very educational. You are a great engineer. Thanks. I will try my best to put copyright on it. Do you want me to just delete the post?



Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Thank you.
> It needs a bit of fullness here for movement. The amount of same is determined only in the measureing fitting process. In this case, you are seeing an illusion. The way to minimize these folds is to have the client put on the shirt. It tends to look better with arms in the sleeves. These folds ("Ruffles") are minimized by properly shaping the sleeve cap.
> The fronts don't fall to the floor. If the yokes were not stitched that's what would happen.
> Actually, I don't understand your question. The yoke is not stitched way back. It may appear that way as the shirt is on a form, not a body, and the shot was taken looking upward.
> ...


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## smets (Sep 22, 2006)

*chainstitch purpose?*

Great Info, Thank you Mr. Kabbaz!

One question that you hopefully will be obliged to answer or any other shirtmaker may be able to help with.

Is chainstitching on the underarm and side seam necessary in all better made shirts? Would a straight stitch in these areas make the shirt inferior?

Thanks again,


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

smets said:


> Great Info, Thank you Mr. Kabbaz!
> 
> One question that you hopefully will be obliged to answer or any other shirtmaker may be able to help with.
> 
> ...


Chainstitching on a regular dress shirt is not the best quality. Lockstitching is. Knitted shirts such as polo shirts cannot be lockstitched. Knits stretch. Lockstitches do not.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Glad I found this thread, especially after my recent experience with a Jos. Banks traveler shirt.

The laundry service is rough on shirts. They also crush the buttons, and if they do sew on a replacement button it's usually not a match. More often though, they just press the button and the heat deforms it or cracks it.

Still, I am not ready to iron my own shirts. I hate ironing. But like the earlier poster, I like shining my shoes (guess it's the ex-military).

I'm going to look for some illegal alien to custom launder and iron my shirts. I am sure I can find one to do this for me, as I remember a few ladies in the old neighborhood who used to do washwoman type work.


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## dc4ever6 (May 30, 2006)

i recently ordered 5 MTM Ascot Chang dress shirts from Tony on Wilshire Blvd ... I will be sure to reprt how they turn out ... any suggestions on ties befitting such a luxurious shirt? most of my current collection is zegna, armani and robert talbott


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## arturostevens (Feb 6, 2007)

I always used to launder my shirts...less so with BB non irons as I dry then briefly, hang and shake them, and then steam them briefly in my closet before wearing. I will take the steamer to all of my shirts. 

The fastest way to wear out shirts and collars is to get shirts starched which will result in premature cuff wear. If I want that look, I will dry briefly, spray a light amount on and iron briefly. I will always have 2 or 3 white shirts laundered and starched for court, but other than that, I actually am very pleased with the longevity and quality of my BB shirts.


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## Sylvestre (Dec 29, 2007)

Great post! Thanks.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Thank you. Had forgotten this one.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Thank you. Had forgotten this one.


Maybe I missed it, but someone asked a question that I also have: why don't the abrasive properties of the powdered detergent add to the wear on the shirt?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

marlinspike said:


> Maybe I missed it, but someone asked a question that I also have: why don't the abrasive properties of the powdered detergent add to the wear on the shirt?


As near as I have been able to figure out it is because they are extremely small. As such they are able to work themselves down into the crevices between each yarn which is where the soil gets stuck.

It is similar to a technique we use for heavily soiled areas. Wet and rub a bit of Ocatagon on the soiled spot. Then, grabbing the fabric in both hands, rub it against itself, first in one direction and then again at a right angle. This motion serves to move the warp and weft yarns temporarily out of alignment thus permitting the soil to detach/be abraded off of the spaces between the yarns.


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## Lowndes (Feb 25, 2008)

Also, wanted to add that I found this to be a really interested thread. Awesome information.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Thank you.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

giff74 said:


> WOW, $7 a shirt! Do they come back with gold collar stays?
> 
> I pay $1.40 a shirt and the owner of the cleaners comes on Mondays and picks our stuff up and brings it back the next Monday included in that price. He is also the best cleaner/launderer in town. I know because I have had plenty of shirts destroyed at all the others.


I pay $1.25 a shirt. I've never had a problem.

Knit shirts, on the other hand, cost $5.00. I'm inclined to launder them at home if I have more than two or three in a week.

A friend used to insist on having her husband's shirts heavily starched. For some reason it took her eight years (and three husbands) to start taking my advice not to do so.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Properly pressing a shirt takes an average of 27 minutes. Assuming no time or cost for washing and no profit for the owner, at $1.25/shirt the person doing the ironing would be earning $2.77 per hour.

So ... either significant shortcuts are being taken, most of which are harmful to the shirt, or indentured servitude is again alive and well in the U.S.


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## dingbat (Jul 24, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Properly pressing a shirt takes an average of 27 minutes. Assuming no time or cost for washing and no profit for the owner, at $1.25/shirt the person doing the ironing would be earning $2.77 per hour.
> 
> So ... either significant shortcuts are being taken, most of which are harmful to the shirt, or indentured servitude is again alive and well in the U.S.


A shirt usually takes me 15 minutes... hmmmm.... I'm obviously leaving out a few things...

Mind you, my housemates usually take about five minutes so I don't feel too bad


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

dingbat said:


> A shirt usually takes me 15 minutes... hmmmm.... I'm obviously leaving out a few things...
> 
> Mind you, my housemates usually take about five minutes so I don't feel too bad


15 minutes is fine. If one were to figure the converse of $1.25 per shirt, the allowance for pressing would be 45-60 seconds. Which, actually, is how much time they are alotted.


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## General Koskov (Jan 2, 2004)

*Sunlight bar soap in lieu of Octagon?*



Alexander Kabbaz said:


> * Synopsis of contentions; Laundering:*
> Good powdered detergent such as unphuckedwith Tide (no scent, no bleach, no mountain spring, no ...)
> Use a borax based bar soap (Octagon; Kirkman) with brush for collar ring and stain removal in advance.


Octagon is not available anywhere where I live but Sunlight laundry bar soap is in supply. I don't think it is borax-based but would it suffice for stain removal? 
I haven't done a comparison between Octagon and Sunlight for myself but perhaps someone can tell me if the latter works as well as the former.


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## rabidawg (Apr 14, 2009)

Miket61 said:


> I pay $1.25 a shirt. I've never had a problem.
> 
> Knit shirts, on the other hand, cost $5.00. I'm inclined to launder them at home if I have more than two or three in a week.
> 
> A friend used to insist on having her husband's shirts heavily starched. For some reason it took her eight years (and three husbands) to start taking my advice not to do so.


Mike,

Would you be willing to recommend by name your cleaner?


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## pusso (May 5, 2009)

My mother does my laundry and treats both bespoke and rtw in the same way.

All of my shirts from last year wore out, so I've spent a fortune replacing them!

Mind you, apart from to my purse, this is no great hardship!!!


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

rabidawg said:


> Mike,
> 
> Would you be willing to recommend by name your cleaner?


Regrettably, the cleaner I was using at the time was bought out. On my first visit to the new owner he presented me with a "client information form" that I recall as being very intrusive - almost as though I were completing a credit card application. I never went back.

I now use Professional Cleaners at West Paces Ferry and Northside Drive (it's behind the Starbucks in the Publix shopping center). They charge $1.50 for dress shirts and $4.00 for polos.


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## Regent1879 (Jan 14, 2016)

Amazing! And I appreciate the scientific approach to the study!


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