# chivalry: rules of door holding.



## resilient (Jan 7, 2008)

hi everyone,

about a week ago, i started holding doors open for every woman and elderly couple that i encountered. because i am a college student, i think that the majority of people responded especially favorably to this gesture. i have decided to permanently incorporate this into my life, but i do, however, have a question about the rules of door holding...

lets say the door i am exiting opens towards me. do i open the door with enough force so that the person can walk through after i have exited, or do i open the door and step back allowing the person to walk through before i have exited?

it seems like taking a step back would be the right move to do, but i tried that today and it felt extremely awkward. the girl gave me a funny look while i motioned her into the doorway... at least i got a nice "thank you."


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

I find it really sad that the logic of chivalry must be explained to anyone (it's great that you think enough about it to ask); it means that my generation and the next didn't do our task well enough. In this instance, if the door opens toward you, pull it open and hold it for the person (or people) behind you; if it opens away from you, push it open and hold it so the person behind you can step through. If that isn't possible (there are doors one simply can't hold open that way) then open it, step through and hold it open. If the person behind you gets upset that you did it that way, don't worry about them; they're probably incapable of understanding it, anyway. I have to add, however, that the truly polite person doesn't limit his/her politesse to women and elderly couples, but extends it to all.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Rip, you are quite right.

However, a most annoying part of the process is when you hold it open and people walk through just ignoring you, without any kind of acknowledgement. It's not necessary to say thanks but a quick bit of eye contact or other gesture to recognise what you have done goes a long way. One feels like calling "You're Welcome!" after the ingrates! :icon_smile:


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## resilient (Jan 7, 2008)

ok, so i understand that part rip, but i was curious about what happens if the person is not behind me but rather coming toward me (separated by the door).

here is a poorly drawn diagram to show you what i mean...


o <--- person

----- <---- door

o <--- me


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I know what you're talking about resilient. For such people, if they're either getting to the door before me or close enough to the same time, I'd open the door and let them go through first.

I think rip is dead on about the fault starting with his generation (I'm guessing that's the baby boom generation or thereabouts).


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

resilient,

Thank you for willfully deciding to join the more human side of this world!
The likes of you are few and far between.

My father would have smacked me in the head for failing to hold the door for someone,
my mother, would have done worse!

I held the door for 5 people in the parking garage of my office this evening as I left for the weekend, only 3 said thank you, of those, two were truly grateful for the gesture.
It is easy to throw in the towel and say why bother, please do not.
Women under 30 or so are the least likely to acknowledge your effort.

I have been known to add the odd "your welcome" or having held the door for the first series of doors, making sure I do not for the second series of doors, this is NOT correct, but you will meet the odd first class B$#@ who will do everything possible to ignore you, pause and make you stand there like a door man, make it difficult to hold the second door and so on.

Be strong, be proper, and set the example 
(do better than I do at times when faced with a wretch of a human)
and when the time comes, raise your children the way it should be, which will be second nature to you by that time, and know the last generation screwed up with their priorities in life and right their wrongs for you and for your children 
(with this, I do not just mean holding a door, but I am guessing you got that!).

Most doors today are heavy, 
step through the door first and hold the door when faced with a push door.
Open the door and stand back and wait for the person to exit ahead of you when faced with a pull door.

Today, most states (provinces here) insist on push doors for exit doors as this reduces the risk of people being trapped in an emergency if there is a crowd building up against an exit door, it should just push open to free the people from a building, pull doors are dangerous in large public buildings, so assume in most cases, you will exit, and hold the door keeping a clear path for the person following you.

I often throw in a "have a good evening" when the person is approaching my own parent's age,
it wil be lost on the younger generation who will likely see it as a cheap pick up attempt.


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## riveroaks (Jan 1, 2007)

resilient said:


> ...
> it seems like taking a step back would be the right move to do, but i tried that today and it felt extremely awkward. the girl gave me a funny look while i motioned her into the doorway... at least i got a nice "thank you."


were you looking at her arse? that might explain the funny look :crazy:


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I've always opened doors for women. For that matter I try to be courteous and hold doors that I have already opened for myself for anyone, man or woman. I don't think I have ever thought of there being any specific rules as to when or how to open or hold a door for someone, I've just let the circumstances dictate what I do. 

For example, if opening or holding a door creates a greater inconvenience for the person due to positioning or something of that nature, I don't make matters worse just trying to express chivalry. I think if you just try to practice courtesy and good manners you really won't have to even think about when or how to do it. It will just be second nature.

Cruiser


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

I try to open the door for anyone, either way...it's that simple.

When it's opened for me, regardless of gender I thank them.

-spence


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Rossini said:


> Rip, you are quite right.
> 
> However, a most annoying part of the process is when you hold it open and people walk through just ignoring you, without any kind of acknowledgement. It's not necessary to say thanks but a quick bit of eye contact or other gesture to recognise what you have done goes a long way. One feels like calling "You're Welcome!" after the ingrates! :icon_smile:


Quite right, and we wish more people were grateful, but true chivalry is done for the act itself, not for recognition of the act.


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## Lawson (Dec 2, 2007)

So etiquette actually exists above the Mason-Dixon line? :icon_smile_wink:


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

zegnamtl said:


> Women under 30 or so are the least likely to acknowledge your effort.


Interesting, my experience is different. Women under 30 are actually quite polite about it. It's the ones from, say 40 to 60 - male and female - who believe they are too important and too busy and it is their right to have the door held open for them that are least likely to say thanks - at least in my experience. Maybe it's a peer thing, to do with a latent respect for people of a similar age profile.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

resilient said:


> ok, so i understand that part rip, but i was curious about what happens if the person is not behind me but rather coming toward me (separated by the door).
> 
> here is a poorly drawn diagram to show you what i mean...
> 
> ...


You hold the door for them, end of story.


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## JayJay (Oct 8, 2007)

I've had women in business settings scold me for attempting to open or hold the door for them. Mentioning to them that I do it for men too didn't make them any nicer to me.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Rossini said:


> Rip, you are quite right.
> 
> However, a most annoying part of the process is when you hold it open and people walk through just ignoring you, without any kind of acknowledgement. It's not necessary to say thanks but a quick bit of eye contact or other gesture to recognise what you have done goes a long way. One feels like calling "You're Welcome!" after the ingrates! :icon_smile:


I could not have said it better. Spot on!


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## Magicman (Oct 6, 2005)

I often find it nice, and chivalric, when someone relieves me of the door holding duty. I open the door for all, without discrimination, whenever I go through the door. But when another man comes to the door (not elderly, mind you) he really should thank me and then hold the door open so that I may pass- as one gentleman to another. In the Northwest United States I see this often and I feel good that there are others out there that practice this kind, yet dying, gesture.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Rossini said:


> One feels like calling "You're Welcome!" after the ingrates! :icon_smile:


I've actually done that exact thing on occasion...mostly with younger women who have no manners. I've always held doors (including car doors) open for women, risen when they come into a room or leave/approcah a dining table, etc. Ninety percent of the women I have encountered I do that for truly appreciate it (the other ten percent are rude, clueless dolts). My wife once told me one of the little things she said she immediately liked about me (on our first date) was that I held open doors for her.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

One of the nice things about Hawaii is the culture here is generally still to hold the door open for one another when the circumstances make it the polite thing to do. And I wouldn't even say it's restricted by sex or age, although it is more unusual to see a woman holding open a door for a man.

By the way, it is also considered extremely impolite to beep your car horn, except in an emergency.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Chivalry is not dead and I think today holding the door for a woman is still considered a nice gesture on your part.Sometimes they say Thank You and sometimes they give you funny looks.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

JayJay said:


> I've had women in business settings scold me for attempting to open or hold the door for them. Mentioning to them that I do it for men too didn't make them any nicer to me.


This has happened to me, fortunately very rarely.
The comment was something to the effect of, "I do not need a man to get through a door".


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Rossini said:


> Interesting, my experience is different. Women under 30 are actually quite polite about it. It's the ones from, say 40 to 60 - male and female - who believe they are too important and too busy and it is their right to have the door held open for them that are least likely to say thanks - at least in my experience. Maybe it's a peer thing, to do with a latent respect for people of a similar age profile.


I think this may need further observation :--)

It may be a factor of "Radical Vulvas" the newer, younger 4th generation feminist movement???

Over simplification I realize, but I find people's manners to be either 1 on 10 or 8 and above on 10, while middle ground has been washed out to sea.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

JayJay said:


> I've had women in business settings scold me for attempting to open or hold the door for them. Mentioning to them that I do it for men too didn't make them any nicer to me.


This, unfortunately, is a trickle-down from the feminazi movements. I, if I choose to bother (rarely) inform them that politeness, just like their extreme lack of same, is not a gender-specific act.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

What if you held the door open for a man,Would it be the same as holding the door open for a woman?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Howard said:


> What if you held the door open for a man,Would it be the same as holding the door open for a woman?


Generally we are faced with the door holding situation when we are approaching a door with someone following fairly close behind. If it is a man I will generally open the door and proceed on through, holding it open behind me long enough for the man to take in hand himself rather than letting it go in his face.

On the other hand if there is a woman behind me I will generally open the door while standing back and letting her go through the door first, or if the door opens away from me I will step in and hold it from the other side while she passes by me.

There are occasions where someone is coming from the other side of the door at the same time I am going through. If I have reached the door first and opened it for myself, I usually hold it open and motion the other person through first, man or woman.

Cruiser


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## davidhm (Jan 8, 2006)

*Due South - a guide for the ages*

There was a Canadian TV show, which aired for some time on CBS, called Due South that featured an unusually polite, uncannily knowledgeable Canadian Mounties who "first came to Chicago on the trail of the killers of [his] father and, for reasons which don't need exploring at this juncture, ... remained, attached as liaison to the Canadian consulate". His ability to remain patient and gracious, holding doors in the face of rudeness, rebuff and rancour often serves as my rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South

Manners and grace should be about one's own behaviour, not others', and about others' needs, not one's own. Two of the situations that others have discussed, women who think that you are making a play and women who think that your either being condescending, or, regardless of your intent, are undermining their credibility, may benefit from some analysis in that framework.

Both reactions are grounded in something real and something reasonable; whether the reality reasonably justifies the full reaction is not relevant.

There are cads who will hold the door as some showy display of manners, as a ploy to impress or an opportunity to be improperly forward or take unwelcome liberties. A review of the preceding posts discusses some of those liberties in more graphic detail than I will. With strangers you can minimize the likelihood of this reaction by smiling not leering, by making eye contact only, and by not attempting to strike up an uninvited conversation with a strange lady to whom you have not been introduced. With acquaintances, your general conduct and reputation should minimize this reaction, but, ahem&#8230; eye contact only. Of course, if you are trying shamelessly to impress and flatter, or take liberties, than the foregoing is no guidance to you. I might help if I could, but I cannot; then again, I might not. I hardly need the competition.

As to the condescension, or the possibility of undermining a woman's credibility in the workplace, its worthwhile first to acknowledge that this is a reasonable concern. Until only recently there have been environments that did not afford women the same opportunities as men. Whether that sad state has thankfully been remedied, or is still woefully present, is an open and sometimes hotly debated question, but hardly anyone suggests that it wasn't the case a mere generation ago. Little gestures of social graciousness can serve to suggest that women are different or, worse, deserving or needing special treatment. The original poster indicated that he also holds doors for the elderly. Is it really that surprising that a hard-charging young female executive, who wants to be known as the most effective VP in her division, who gets things done, who takes names and kicks tuckus, doesn't want that association? Heck, she doesn't want anyone noticing or thinking that she's a women; she wants them thinking that she's the most effective VP in her division, who gets things done, who takes names and kicks tuckus. And yes, from time to time, she or some less mannered young woman may very well want some man - or heaven forefend - men in her workplace noticing that she is a woman, but that doesn't change the general proposition, and there is nothing polite about speculating or commenting on such motivations.

Before one can deal graciously with her objections, I believe it is helpful to accept, at least, that a woman may hold the forgoing sentiments and regardless of one's view of their validity, if one's manners are about one's own behaviour and others needs, one will take them into account when choosing one's behaviour. So, what is one to do? Clearly, not making a big show of opening the door for the little lady is part of it. Another part is conducting oneself in all other regards as not denigrating women's role in the office. Another is holding the door for lots of people: higher ranking, older, women, juniors, support staff, colleagues - basically everyone save for interlopers bent on stealing office equipment. Another is simply thinking about these behaviours as serving a useful social purpose other than doting on helpless women. As one diplomat put it, we simply all cannot go through the door at the same time.

But, that doesn't fully answer what to do when you have held a door for a woman and she sneers that she doesn't need or want your assistance, and that she can open the door perfectly well herself. It may be helpful to pretend that she has articulated her objection more carefully, as I have tried to do above. An answer along the lines of "I'm certain you can [miss / Kate]. I'm very sorry to have - this is a tough bit, what the heck is one sorry for? - to have imposed, to have acted in an unwelcome way, or to have confused my social manners for my business manners. Perhaps you'll be kind enough to hold the door for me when we get to the client's office" seems like it might be appropriate. But the key is thinking about your tone. And your purpose. There is nothing gracious in entering, or winning, a debate on the propriety of holding doors for women generally, for Southern women in the Yankee North, or for women of a certain age who attended certain well-regarded women's colleges. The gracious answer is an apology, not for trespass but for causing distress, an assurance that the offence won't recur, and an attempt to smooth the unpleasantness over.


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## TweedyDon (Aug 31, 2007)

A very nice thread! I hold doors open for people, men or women--it's just second nature to me. If someone is offended--and this is very, very rare in my experience--a sincere brief apology is offered ("I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend") and invariably accepted. After all, since I believe that being polite is just making someone else feel more comfortable and at ease, it's only fair to apologise when this misfires.


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## davidhm (Jan 8, 2006)

*Oops.. Tweedy Don said it better*

I thought I was really covering the bases, but darn it, Tweedy Don said it better and in a lot fewer bits.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Being taught some rules about chivalry and then came the years of womens lib, the latter one learned me not to open the door for women. Today some of the younger women are nice.

Some of those old bags with their arms loaded with bags they could hardly see the door because of all the bags, and to open the store door for the old bags, and then, get yelled at by the angery old bags- you learn not to open the door for them. But, some of the younger women today are smarter.


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## davidhm (Jan 8, 2006)

My goodness! What a gracious way to put things. Manners are, partly, about smoothing over unpleasant situations. And so, a discussion of manners may get coloured by the unpleasantness of the situation. But that's unfortunate, and should be resisted.


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

I wouldn't find the irony in a heated discussion about manners odd at all.

Irony, like sarcasm, ruins so many things; it is one of the lowest forms of comedy and intelligence.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

I think the notion of chivalry is related but different from the notion of good manners and politeness. I think actions and words put forth based on the former, and those of the latter but perceived to be of the former, may cause offence, or simply not be appreciated, amongst the somewhat angry variety of feminists. I once encountered a woman, carrying 2 rather large bags, in New York that barked at me, "I can open doors myself!!" It wasn't chivalry on my part, just being considerate. Obviously, on that particular occasion, it had a regrettable outcome. I was rendered speechless by her barking reaction but must admit that a term describing a certain category of dogs did come to mind... And the irony here has nothing to do with comedy or intelligence.


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## davidhm (Jan 8, 2006)

My goodness! Whether it was chivalry, consideration, politeness, good manners, or any other noble motivaiton it is certainly disappointing to see that noble motivation undermined by a discussion of any "category of dogs".


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Scoundrel said:


> I wouldn't find the irony in a heated discussion about manners odd at all.
> 
> Irony, like sarcasm, ruins so many things; it is one of the lowest forms of comedy and intelligence.


but higher than puns eh?


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

davidhm said:


> My goodness! Whether it was chivalry, consideration, politeness, good manners, or any other noble motivaiton it is certainly disappointing to see that noble motivation undermined by a discussion of any "category of dogs".


Actually, I think that, as it transpired, goodness had nothing to do with it on this particular occasion.:icon_smile_big:


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## davidhm (Jan 8, 2006)

Indeed, Mr. Donuts. Well, I am sad to let this thread die on this note, but I think I've said all that I care to.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I hold the door for anybody,man or woman they are to be treated as an equal.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Spence said:


> I try to open the door for anyone, either way...it's that simple.
> 
> When it's opened for me, regardless of gender I thank them.
> 
> -spence


^Same here.


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