# when is it OK to wear an OCBD (slightly) wrinkled (in a casual setting)?



## bellemastiff (Aug 17, 2011)

So I am definitely a convert to "must iron" brooks brothers OCBD, after trying many different brands and types of button down shirts. I like the "regular fit" after moving on from the slim fit (stays tucked in better, and is more comfortable).

I wear them often in what forum members would consider to be "casual" outfit, although, I am often the most formally dressed of my male co-workers.

E.g., here might be a typical outfit (at an office where most men are wearing non dressy jeans, with polo shirts or tee shirts)

White OCBD, chinos, brown belt, brown bit loafers
or
White OCBD, Levi's 550s, brown belt, AE brown cap-toe brogues

When weather permits I will put on my sport coat or navy blazer, too.

Now, I do try to catch the shirts fresh out of the dryer, so they are "slightly" wrinkled but they don't look like a mess or anything when I put them on. I'd call it the "lived in" look.

Are forum members against wearing the must-iron OCBD, without ironing it, in a 'smart casual' environment? I do wear ironed shirts with suits and in more format environments, BTW. But those days are a couple dozen days a year...

Oh and in case a pic is helpful, I found this in another thread... this is about the level of wrinkle I like to rock:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...ad-What-are-you-Wearing&p=1213933#post1213933


----------



## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Not at the office...period. Weekends at the bar/coffeeshop, okay, backyard parties, just fine, but not in a work situation. Might just be me, personally and alone, but being adolescent underdressed means lack of knowledge, "artfully wrinkled" means lack of respect.


----------



## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Creases? No. "rumples" sure, definitely. A starched/ironed OCBD never made sense to me, but I'm young and foolish, still.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Initial reaction: unless they've changed the shirts recently, a must-iron Oxford cloth straight out of the dryer is more than "slightly" wrinkled.

On seeing the linked photo: Yep ... that's not slightly wrinkled. That's wrinkled.

Bottom line of probably unnecessary agreement with others: Not for work.

For truly casual wear, particularly if you're a younger guy, fine.

I actually used to wear unironed oxford cloth shirts all the time, but I was in my early 20s and a student at the time. Even then, it was kind of a quirky "look." And never to work.


----------



## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Tucked in or not? Hopefully tucked in. And I have no problem with wrinkles, but I'm (shock!) a student who dresses quirkily.


----------



## bellemastiff (Aug 17, 2011)

> Creases? No. "rumples" sure, definitely. A starched/ironed OCBD never made sense to me, but I'm young and foolish, still.


 

Right. Not talking about hard creases, but more the "live in look" ("rumples").



> Tucked in or not? Hopefully tucked in.


Always tucked in.

Also relevant is that I'm 28yo and work at an internet startup company where the dress is decidedly casual. I wouldn't try to pull off the same look if I worked at a law firm.

Final point, I do have an aversion to a look that's overly polished (depending on the environment, it can make you stand out too much)... OK this isn't an OCBD, but still, there are some wrinkles:


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

phyrpowr said:


> Might just be me, personally and alone, but being adolescent underdressed means lack of knowledge, "artfully wrinkled" means lack of respect.


I agree. Many who aim at "artfully wrinkled" miss and hit "genuinely sloppy" instead. Also, it looks contrived.


----------



## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

Well, since you asked for opinions - and many of us are responding - I'll offer mine.

• The picture you used as an exemplar of "slightly wrinkled" was of Jovan, who had paired a wrinkled OCBD with Madras shorts and no socks. I happen to think Jovan's look is fine for what it is, namely VERY casual, not "smart casual."

• Another instance where I'd find a wrinkled must-iron OCBD acceptable is under a crew neck sweater or, just possibly, a sweater with a high V neck. Our poster, Oxford Cloth Button Down, is always very polished in his sweater looks, but it is often not clear to me whether his OCBD is ironed. My point here is that I give him the benefit of the doubt, because his outfits are so consistently "tidy."

• OCBDs - even if ironed - wrinkle. That is, for office workers, they really crease on the inner elbow. Such an ugly occurrence is completely hidden by a suit jacket, sport coat or a sweater. Inner elbow wrinkles are not obscured when sleeves are buttoned at the cuff. If your style is to wear your sleeves rolled above the elbow, these wrinkles can be obscured. Otherwise not.

• Fundamentally, this is an issue of who you are. The existential YOU. Are your standards set by the attire of others or do you hew to your own standards? Pondering the answer to this question will tell you a lot about yourself and a lot about your future.

Good topic to bring up!


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If I actually worked in OCBDs and khakis, maybe they'd call for a pressing. But it would depend what _kind_ of "business casual" atmosphere there was. There's a stupid amount of different definitions on what that is now. Rumpled OCBDs and khakis wouldn't look very slovenly next to most people wearing polos and jeans, IMO. If, on the other hand, everyone was in pressed (sometimes non-iron) shirts and trousers, it would be time to take out the iron or find a quality cleaner near you.

On another note... holy crap, I barely remembered those photos from last year. The good times, when my girlfriend wasn't out of state and could take pictures of my outfits.


----------



## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

Damn, Jovan, that's pretty much my standard summer outfit in that pic.

As for the business environment, at least hit it with a steam iron. It won't looked starched and pressed but won't look messy either.


----------



## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

In high school, I'd dry my OCBD's on hangers instead of in the dryer. While they were still wet, I'd stretch out the placket and cuffs a little - helps keep the pucker down.

Looked very much like the shirt in Jovan's pic.

If I needed to step it up, I'd iron the front. Give it a try, can't hurt. :icon_smile:


----------



## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

I disagree with you all. It is a nice look. A worn, slightly wrinkled shirt.Is elegant. Please see the forum on british hunting clothing.
I have kept my shirts, to this look all my life. A little wearing of the collar is very acceptable.
And a nice look from this 60 yo.
I have always liked the worn , old look.
See how the British do it, my God.
And yes, looks great in a medical practice, or business off. Or lounging at home.

Again, some one here with rules on what is proper and not proper. To those who think a worn, wrikled shirt is wrong to wear.
You are wrong!!

Nice day


----------



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

DukeGrad said:


> I disagree with you all. It is a nice look. A worn, slightly wrinkled shirt.Is elegant. Please see the forum on british hunting clothing.
> I have kept my shirts, to this look all my life. A little wearing of the collar is very acceptable.
> And a nice look from this 60 yo.
> I have always liked the worn , old look.
> ...


Thank you Duke, finally a response I can agree with.

The idea that an OCBD should never be worn at the office is simply preposterous but then again I am comparing Europe with the US. That said, most US offices depicted on TV and in film seem far more relaxed than the extremely formal attitude expressed by more than a few people on this forum.

Is it maybe only in the upper echelons of the legal and financial spheres that office attire is so formal in the US?


----------



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

phyrpowr said:


> Not at the office...period. Weekends at the bar/coffeeshop, okay, backyard parties, just fine, but not in a work situation. Might just be me, personally and alone, but being adolescent underdressed means lack of knowledge, "artfully wrinkled" means lack of respect.


You're joking right? I've encountered plenty of Americans at very high level international business meetings in Sweden and abroad both tieless and/or wearing OCBDs.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Was he referring to the OCBD itself? I thought he just meant not pressing your shirts.


----------



## Acme (Oct 5, 2011)

bellemastiff said:


> Also relevant is that I'm 28yo and work at an internet startup company where the dress is decidedly casual. I wouldn't try to pull off the same look if I worked at a law firm.


Your line of work is pretty relevant here.

If your colleagues are all in T Shirts and jeans, I don't think wearing an OCBD pulled fresh out of the dryer is out of line. Especially at an Internet startup, where half the staff probably works remotely, a customer is never expected to visit the office, and there's often as much going on in the office at 9pm as there is at 9am.

The IT industry has the most relaxed dress code of any I've ever seen. After all, it's not unknown to see earrings being worn at the office.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Was he referring to the OCBD itself? I thought he just meant not pressing your shirts.


Here's the thread title: when is it OK to wear an OCBD (slightly) wrinkled (in a casual setting)?

And the first response was "Not at the office...period" which is clearly not an answer to the question because some offices are very casual. "in a casual setting" can apply to anywhere.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

First off, you shouldn't be putting your OCBD's in the dryer to begin with. They feel crisper and, I think, breathe better when air dried. Also, I suspect, they'll last a bit longer.

Secondly, it is absolutely appropriate to wear an untucked OCBD in a casual setting. The photo of Jovan is case in point, but it is also acceptable with jeans and khakis.

Thirdly, this is timely, given I experimented last weekend and attended an event in an un-ironed white BB OCBD. It was a cocktails and hors d'oeuvres gathering where dress was going to run from sport coat and tie to open-neck shirt and jeans (there's a lot of that around here). I chose a plaid tartan sport coat from Scotland House, Oxxford khakis and Church's wingtips (all purchased on the exchange, BTW) and an un-ironed BB OCBD with no tie. The shirt was slightly less rumpled than the one Jovan wears. I'm still debating whether I'd do it again. I don't think it mattered to anyone in the room, but I was keenly aware, and that counts.


----------



## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I take my shirts out of the washer, give them a few quick shakes, holding around the collar, then hang them up to dry. The finished product is considerably less wrinkled that pictured in your link, but without the complete smoothness that comes from pressing. I would think that it would satisfactory for most situations, including your office environment, short of a wedding or a job interview.


----------



## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Under a sweater.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Anybody who understood any of the prior posts (including phyrpower's) to say that you can't wear a _pressed_ OCBD to an office needs some help with reading comprehension.

Also, in his defense, phyrpower's post answered the original post quite exactly. The OP asked whether he could wear an unpressed OCBC in a casual setting, and indicated that he was particularly interested in a casual office. Phyrpower answered: not in a casual office, yes in a non-office casual setting (giving an example of the latter).

That is clearly an answer.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

phyrpowr said:


> Not at the office...period.


stick to the exact wording


----------



## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

A rumpled OCBD looks better in the office than a non-iron OCBD to me. It's a little too J. Crew of a look for a guy like me in his fifties, but it looks good on a bachelor. A tie dresses it up a little. On the other hand, a Kennedy roll on the sleeves dresses it down. Untucked doesn't look good IMO, but then neither does sagging, but that could be a generational shift.


----------



## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm a young guy in my twenties, and I wouldn't wear an untucked OCBD under any circumstances. I think it just looks wrong. If I'm going untucked, it's going to be in a polo.


----------



## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

It depends on the office. Some folks wear a Bowler to work, others Filson workwear. In my office (a boatyard) an OCBD is acceptable ironed or wrinkled.

The Trad target seems to be a moving one. I've given up on trying to hit the bullseye. I'm not sure wearing a suit and spread collar would qualify anyways.


----------



## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Jovan's picture captures exactly how I wear my OCBDs all the time nowadays - no starch, no iron, wash and dry only. Whether I'm hanging loose in shorts or tucked and furled in a blazer and tie, I never iron or starch my OCBDs. I might relent and wear a lightly touched-up OCBD with a suit. Or maybe not.

Let me say that as a given work day wears on from morning into afternoon, a starched OCBD will make my back start to itch. I haven't been the only hapless victim of this. I used to work in a big office, and many of the other like-dressed guys would, over an afternoon, surreptitously scratch their backs with pencils, rolled-up magazines, architect's scales, shoe horns, irons, putters, coat hangers, desk name plaques, on metal door frames, or even on the edges of doors. No starch and no ironing put an end to this suffering for me. 

I fold my OCBDs hot out of the dryer, and while this doesn't produce the absolutely flat collars, cuffs and plackets some of us might like, this does get out most of the wrinkles. I do make sure all the other clothes I'm wearing on a given day won't end up looking as rumpled as my shirt, though.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Not starched, just pressed.


----------



## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

I used to get my OCBD's pressed at the cleaners, but eventually just switched to pulling them from the dryer and hanging them up. I don't work at an office so that standard doesn't apply for me, but I always just wear my OCBD's dried and hung up. No ironing at all. They don't seem to be very wrinkly to me.


----------



## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

I don't ever iron my OCBDS. I also never put them in the dryer. I hang them right out of the washing machine, shape the collars, button placket and cuffs, and let them air dry. The first 4 or 5 washes come out looking like Jovan's shirt. After that, the fabric relaxes and I get no creases and just the slightest rumple. 

I wear OCBDS with a sport coat to work everyday (architect) and I'm still dressed better than everyone including the principals (who just instituted a jeans-everyday policy to riotous applause from the rest of the staff). That being the case, the casualness of my OCBDS are determined by wear (fraying, thin spots) and not wrinkles, since all of mine come out looking pretty decent.

For suits, I prefer to wear pinpoint BDs which I do iron.


----------



## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Billax said:


> Well, since you asked for opinions - and many of us are responding - I'll offer mine.
> 
> • The picture you used as an exemplar of "slightly wrinkled" was of Jovan, who had paired a wrinkled OCBD with Madras shorts and no socks. I happen to think Jovan's look is fine for what it is, namely VERY casual, not "smart casual."
> 
> ...


Discerning comments from a gentleman of distinction. Bravo Zulu, sir. :icon_smile:


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'll see about hanging my OCBDs to dry like that. They tend to come out of the washer looking quite wrinkled, but if you insist they will look fine, what can it hurt to try. I press my non-OCBD shirts while they're still damp.


----------



## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Hang-dried, un-ironed OCBDs are my everyday wear. If I do press them, I try to do it while they're still damp. I'll wear them anywhere around here, where people "get" the trad/preppy/nautical aesthetic. Otherwise for business casual I'll throw on a sweater or jacket, or wear a dressier shirt.

I'd never wear a tailed shirt untucked.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I only wear shirts untucked with shorts and maybe occasionally jeans.


----------



## Semper Jeep (Oct 11, 2011)

I work in a pretty casual setting (except on days I know that I am meeting with the public) and wear un-ironed OCBD shirts nearly every day from the early fall through the spring. I would say that my OCBDs generally have about the same level of wrinkleness as the shirt in the picture you posted.

I find that as long as I pull them out of the dryer after just a few minutes and hang them to finish drying, the wrinkles aren't too bad for my tastes. Plus, the shirts are nice and comfortable and (seemingly) more durable and they are something I don't need to change out of once I get home from work - I'm not as apprehensive about getting down on the floor to play with my toddler daughter when I get home from the office if I have on a pair of chinos or cords and an OCBD as I would be with a broadcloth or herringbone shirt.


----------



## statboy (Sep 1, 2010)

I don't iron cotton clothes. Most OCBDs look less wrinkled at the end of a day than the non-iron junk. You can wear the un-ironed OCBD just fine with a SJ and wool trousers. And a suit. With everything really. My opinion is that ironing the OCBD takes some of the character and comfort away from it.


----------



## humblequant (Mar 23, 2010)

When I'm evaluating someone's attire in the context of work, I care less about what he's wearing than how he's wearing it. Unfair or not, if you appear careless and lazy in your dress, it will likewise influence how I anticipate your work. If you are sharp, attentive, and appropriate, than I will tend to think better. Appropriate is key, but I'd feel better about doing business with someone in well cared for and maintained business-casual clothing than a fellow in a tattered Saville Row suit. In fact, in the latter case I'm likely to think, "If he knows enough to love that suit, he really should know better."

TLDR: No one is going to think better of you for wearing a wrinkled shirt and some people will think worse.


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

humblequant said:


> When I'm evaluating someone's attire in the context of work, I care less about what he's wearing than how he's wearing it. Unfair or not, if you appear careless and lazy in your dress, it will likewise influence how I anticipate your work. If you are sharp, attentive, and appropriate, than I will tend to think better. Appropriate is key, but I'd feel better about doing business with someone in well cared for and maintained business-casual clothing than a fellow in a tattered Saville Row suit. In fact, in the latter case I'm likely to think, "If he knows enough to love that suit, he really should know better."
> 
> TLDR: No one is going to think better of you for wearing a wrinkled shirt and some people will think worse.


Well said!


----------



## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

I just cannot imagine a situation where a must-iron OCBD would be formal enough, but a few wrinkles wouldn't. Call it The OCBD Rule. I hang-dry my shirts and they come out with minimal wrinkles. I don't even tug the placket and sleeves as one poster mentioned. Ironing them just seems way too fussy. I'll iron pinpoints for wear with a suit, but given what the average American man wears in public these days (including the average American businessman), a BB OCBD is never going to look sloppy in comparison. All this talk of judging people by the number of wrinkles in their sleeve seems like something out of the 1940's.


----------



## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Unless you selling surf boards, not for business. Save this for washing the car. At home...


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I've never seen a Ron Jon employee wearing an OCBD...


----------



## OliT (Mar 13, 2012)

I would tend to agree with the previous posters. A shirt put damp on a hanger (one that does not color off on the shirt) and left to air dry tends to work very well in most situations, I find. I rarely end up with any creases worth mentioning.
On the other hand, leave the shirt in the washer for a couple of hours, and it'll be messy.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Orsini: FWIW, my girlfriend just got an office job where she is the most put-together person there without even trying. Everyone wears jeans and t-shirts. I fail to see how the female equivalent of rumpled shirts and khakis could possibly look any worse. Not all offices have the same dress code or atmosphere.


----------



## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Jovan said:


> Orsini: FWIW, my girlfriend just got an office job where she is the most put-together person there without even trying. Everyone wears jeans and t-shirts. I fail to see how the female equivalent of rumpled shirts and khakis could possibly look any worse. Not all offices have the same dress code or atmosphere.


I am not sure what point you are making, but something that looks bad will look bad in any environment -- whether the occupants recognize it or not.

Where I work, (younger) visiting firemen show up like this and it looks bad...


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

The point I'm making is that not being perfectly pressed isn't going to look bad in every environment. To you it may. But in a primarily t-shirt and jeans "come as you are" workplace? A marked improvement.

Would you say most of the guys in the Trad WAYWT thread look bad?


----------



## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Jovan said:


> I've never seen a Ron Jon employee wearing an OCBD...


That's because your Ron Jons are neither trad nor original :tongue2:


----------



## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

I don't really get it. Why not just iron them, and look slightly more professional at your workplace?

A workplace is by definition 'not' a casual setting. So the first answer seems, to me, most correct. 

Or are we afraid that ironing is effeminate? 

We are hanging out in a menswear forum, so I hope we don't judge our manliness by our bicep size. 

I do wear button down oxfords unironed sometimes during he weekend, but it's actually more comfortable ironed.


----------



## bellemastiff (Aug 17, 2011)

Well, ironing is a pain. I understand some folks find it therapeutic, and that a little work / effort is necessary to look good, but I'd rather avoid it if I could.

I do appreciate all the opinions / notes here, and it reminds me that outside of a very few hard rules, there is a diversity of opinion on appropriate men's attire and it's affected by personal situation, region, etc.

My conclusions / notes are as follows:

1. There does seem to be an assumption that we all work in "white collar" workplaces. Sometimes, it would be considered more inappropriate to wear a suit, than it would be to wear a t shirt, depending on your workplace. I'm not talking about an extreme example like a construction site, but there's a lot of gray area between that and a law firm. My own company is probably about halfway in between (an internet advertising firm).

2. All things being equal, a wrinkled, or slightly wrinkled, shirt is less formal than a pressed shirt. Can't argue with that.

3. Again all things being equal, a dress shirt is more formal than an OCBD.

... so a slightly wrinkled OCBD, is far from being 'business' dress.

However, this thread has confirmed to me, that yes in some situations it is 'trad' to wear a slightly wrinkled OCBD and it is indeed part of a 'look'. Whether you are comfortable with that 'look' depends on your own situation and feelings. I have decided that I am very comfortable with it... I just needed the moral support of a few Ask Andy forum members giving me 'permission' ;-)

Edit: but I will also be sure to press my OCBD, or wear a dress shirt, when more formal attire or appearance is called for.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

As is often the case, some people oversimplify clothes into a single dimension of "more to less casual/formal" or - even more simplified - "better" to "worse." Clothes say things in more dimensions than that.

An unironed OCBD says something slightly complicated. If you reduce it to single word, it might be "insouciance." In more words, something like, "I'm an educated guy from a good background and have good clothes, and at the moment I'm taking it easy and hanging out." While I wouldn't quite say there are _no_ jobs where expressing such an attitude is wise, there aren't many. When someone's talking to his lawyer (or doctor, or accountant, or even secretary) insouciance isn't the attitude that's going make him glad that he's not talking to some other lawyer/doctor/accountant/secretary. Of course, if he's at weekend barbeque, that might be exactly the best attitude ... but that's a different situation.

A T-shirt, obviously, can say lots of different things, and not only because it's free to use actual words. Steve Jobs in a plain black T-shirt looks intelligent, creative and even somewhat elegant. Another shirt on someone else might say something more like, "I'm an oddball nerdy guy who lives to write code for you."


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

To throw out another example, using an observation in bellemastiff's post (which I didn't see until after I wrote mine above):
- Unpressed OCBD -> white-collar guy on his day off.
- Various particular "less formal" options (T-shirts, flannel work shirts) -> blue-collar guy at work.


----------



## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Jovan said:


> The point I'm making is that not being perfectly pressed isn't going to look bad in every environment. To you it may. But in a primarily t-shirt and jeans "come as you are" workplace? A marked improvement.


At least that's clear enough.



Jovan said:


> Would you say most of the guys in the Trad WAYWT thread look bad?


Wouldn't know.


----------



## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

I hate, HATE, ironing. The only local dry cleaner was ruining my shirts... My best solution was to wash my must iron OCBD shirts on the delicate cycle of the washer and hang dry after smoothing them out a bit. They are just passable to me in my fairly casual office.

I also decided the cool aide was not to my liking and ordered up some BB no-iron shirts not long ago. 

I think a crisp, pressed shirt looks better than a wrinkled one. If somebody else likes wrinkled ones and can get away with it, that is ok with me.

r.e. the pics of Jovan; I truly detest the look of a long sleeve shirt with shorts.


----------



## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Starch said:


> To throw out another example, using an observation in bellemastiff's post (which I didn't see until after I wrote mine above):
> - Unpressed OCBD -> white-collar guy on his day off.
> - Various particular "less formal" options (T-shirts, flannel work shirts) -> blue-collar guy at work.


Unpressed OCBD=unironed shirt.

Unironed shirt= slightly sloppy.

Sometimes an unironed shirt is just an unironed shirt, but on the other hand: "Perfection is a trifle dull. It is not the least of life's ironies that this, which we all aim at, is better not quite achieved".

If you are otherwise perfection...


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Dragoon said:


> r.e. the pics of Jovan; I truly detest the look of a long sleeve shirt with shorts.


I'm... sorry? :eek2:


----------



## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

Starch said:


> To throw out another example, using an observation in bellemastiff's post (which I didn't see until after I wrote mine above):
> - Unpressed OCBD -> white-collar guy on his day off.
> - Various particular "less formal" options (T-shirts, flannel work shirts) -> blue-collar guy at work.


I worked all morning in my garden planting potatoes, peas, broccoli, cauliflowers and cabbages. Had on disreputable Justin boots and jeans with the knees caked in mud and a sweat soaked t-shirt. Got done and decided to head to town (population <3,000) to get some cold beers to celebrate . You can't believe how much I hoped a client would see me. What is this? The Mayor coming out with beer under his arm wearing grass stained shorts. A polite nod.

Plus which, this semi-hot/skanky red neck girl, thirty years younger than me, was giving me a look.

I need to go back on vacation, I don't fit in here.


----------



## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

I like being rumpled, but I work in a newsroom with people wearing everything from ties to T-shirts. I would say that my sportcoat and shoes (and at least once a week a tie) say I care and that the rumpled shirt and chinos are the way I want them.

I did have a colleague in the early 1990s who, trying to bust my balls, said: "Do you have your shirts professionally wrinkled or do you do it yourself?"

I've yet to find a white OCBD that dries in acceptable shape for wearing to the office. Works with blue and some uni stripes and I've had some pinks that worked this way and some that didn't didn't. Even Harris said that for some reason his hanger-drying method did not work on white OCBDS, that he had to use an iron. On the white ones I iron with no starch and they rumple on my body by the time I get to work. The Land's End white OCBDs dry especially wrinkley, but the BBs aren't much better.


----------



## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

Jovan said:


> I'm... sorry? :eek2:


Just as surprised as you are.


----------



## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

I have all my shirts professionally wrinkled by having the laundry do them with light starch and folded. The folds stay in. If I am in the mood I will iron them out (in a jiffy). Otherwise no. Doesn't much matter since I keep my coat on pretty much all the time.


----------



## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

crs said:


> I've yet to find a white OCBD that dries in acceptable shape for wearing to the office. Works with blue and some uni stripes and I've had some pinks that worked this way and some that didn't didn't. Even Harris said that for some reason his hanger-drying method did not work on white OCBDS, that he had to use an iron. On the white ones I iron with no starch and they rumple on my body by the time I get to work. The Land's End white OCBDs dry especially wrinkley, but the BBs aren't much better.


Yes, this is my experience as well, though I rarely wear white OCBDs (probably for this very reason, I can't remember). The blues and stripes always hang dry to an almost-ironed finish, while the white and some yellows end up a bit less wrinkle-free.


----------



## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Jovan said:


> I'm... sorry? :eek2:


I'm sorry too, Jovan. I think there's something very grown-up about a long-sleeve shirt and shorts and will pass on an otherwise perfect shirt if it's short sleeve. If you need short sleeves, roll them up!


----------



## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Starch said:


> An unironed OCBD says something slightly complicated. If you reduce it to single word, it might be "insouciance." In more words, something like, "I'm an educated guy from a good background and have good clothes, and at the moment I'm taking it easy and hanging out."


To me, it means "I can go through the whole work day without the twin torments of (a) incessant itching and (b) having to waste time and engineering expertise coming up with a discreet back-scratcher." Sometimes, it really isn't about how other people perceive your clothes!



Starch said:


> A T-shirt, obviously, can say lots of different things, and not only because it's free to use actual words. Steve Jobs in a plain black T-shirt looks intelligent, creative and even somewhat elegant. Another shirt on someone else might say something more like, "I'm an oddball nerdy guy who lives to write code for you."


Actually, Steve Jobs in a plain black T-shirt did say to me, "I'm an oddball nerdy guy who lives to write code for you." His secret was that this was the truth of his sartorial message!



crs said:


> I've yet to find a white OCBD that dries in acceptable shape for wearing to the office. Works with blue and some uni stripes and I've had some pinks that worked this way and some that didn't didn't. Even Harris said that for some reason his hanger-drying method did not work on white OCBDS, that he had to use an iron. On the white ones I iron with no starch and they rumple on my body by the time I get to work. The Land's End white OCBDs dry especially wrinkley, but the BBs aren't much better.


My experience exactly. Gitman OCBD's manifest as thicker, more substantial, better-made versions of the Land's End numbers in this case.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

bd79cc said:


> "I can go through the whole work day without the twin torments of (a) incessant itching and (b) having to waste time and engineering expertise coming up with a discreet back-scratcher."


Apparetly, I guess by way of some mystical alchemy of insensitivity and fortunate fabric choice, I have no idea what you're talking about. Does oxford cloth itch? It doesn't to me. If it did, I guess I'd just wear broadcloth or whatever, and be done with it. Then again, I don't understand the process by which pressed fabric itches and unpressed fabric doesn't.



> Sometimes, it really isn't about how other people perceive your clothes!


If that's the case, wear a sweatsuit, or T-shirt and shorts and be done with it. Also: I think you belong in a different forum. I'm pretty sure the primary subject of this one is how people perceive clothes.



> Actually, Steve Jobs in a plain black T-shirt did say to me...


Whatever. The point was that clothes don't exist in a single dimension, but that you can move orthagonally from the formal<->informal dimension and wind up with something that look right in the circumstance. Nobody, in recent years, ever thought Steve Jobs looked like a slacker or a loser; indeed the (somewhat implicit) note I intended was that the second version of Steve Jobs (the one in the dark T-shirt or turtleneck) was an iconic demi-god, while the first version (the one in the suit) couldn't hold a job.


----------



## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Starch said:


> Nobody, in recent years, ever thought Steve Jobs looked like a slacker or a loser; indeed the (somewhat implicit) note I intended was that the second version of Steve Jobs (the one in the dark T-shirt or turtleneck) was an iconic demi-god, while the first version (the one in the suit) couldn't hold a job.


Not to poke my head into your internet argument, but...

You are confusing association with causation. People didn't think Steve Jobs looked like a slacker or a loser _because_ he was wore turtlenecks and jeans; they didn't think he was slacker because the $500bil company he created tells them otherwise. He only looked "iconic" because he very publicly captained a company that could (literally; actual fact) buy Poland and yet refused to wear suits in situations where most other men would. Similarly, nobody thinks Mark Zuckerberg is a slacker even though he wears plain Hanes T-shirts and zip up sweatshirts to important meetings. People don't think Mark Zuckerberg is a slacker because he's Mark Zuckerberg.

Sometimes it's not the clothes, it's just the man.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Disagree.

People thought Bill Gates and Paul Allen looked like doofuses (doofi?) when they were in a position to buy and sell Apple. Less so, actually, nowadays (at least in the case of Gates). People think Zuckerberg looks like a slacker.

People thought Steve Jobs _was_ a screw-up when he dressed like this, but they didn't think he _looked_ bad:


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)




----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Call me crazy, but I don't see why people in the electronics and software industry don't dress for business anymore. The image of Steve Jobs in a suit and tie gives me a lot more confidence in his product than him in an ill-fitting turtleneck and super faded jeans.

He doesn't look like a Wall Street yuppie. He doesn't look like some evil corporate overlord. He looks like a smiling, ordinary joe who wants to be taken seriously and has confidence in his product. The image of him with the three computers? It works. I would have bought from him back then.

Just my two cents. RIP Steve Jobs.


----------



## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Starch said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about.


Well, I'll make it as simple as I can:

Cotton shirt + starch or sizing + body heat and sweat = itching, for some people.

Cotton shirt, _with no starch or sizing_ + body heat and sweat = _no_ itching, for some people.

It's not the fabric. It's the fabric treatment.



Starch said:


> Also: I think you belong in a different forum.


Really? Why would you think that?

Also, I agree with Jovan - for me, Jobs probably would've come across more effectively in public wearing a 3/2 and Color #8's rather than in his jeans-and-turtleneck getup. But I think Jobs' choice of clothing reflected how he really saw himself: as the proprietor of a very productive one-man shop.


----------



## adrianstern (Mar 23, 2012)

shirts need to be ironed. always. period.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

_*You can iron a shirt without starch.*_

I continue to be surprised that some people are unaware of this.


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

adrianstern said:


> shirts need to be ironed. always. period.


Yes. True.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

adrianstern said:


> shirts need to be ironed. always. period.





godan said:


> Yes. True.


You can make me iron all my casual shirts (mostly worn for hanging with friends) when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers.


----------



## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

cumberlandpeal said:


> I have all my shirts professionally wrinkled by having the laundry do them with light starch and folded. The folds stay in.


This was me earlier in my life. I went from light starch from the laundry, to no starch from the laundry, to wash-and-dry at home with no ironing. My last professional laundry recommended once-monthly home washing with bleach and stain remover. In Texas, apparently, professional laundries can't use anything but detergent, water, starch, and sizing to clean and treat shirts.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Gentlemen! I just tried the method of using the fluff/air setting in the dryer (no heat) for a bit and then hanging them up overnight. You all were right. It really does yield the same result as straight-up, low heat tumble drying, even with my poplin casual shirts. It makes the shirts a little more "crispy" feeling, but that's not entirely bad.

Will definitely be doing this from now on. Thanks for correcting my ignorance.


----------

