# Sweaters and Ties



## cravat (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey, I'm new here as a poster, though I've been lurking for about a week. I was wondering what the opinion is on sweaters worn over shirt and tie in more casual situations (entertaining at home, in academic settings, or at a social gathering). I kind of like the look of a nice heavy v-neck or cardigan, or half-zip/button pullover on top of a shirt and tie in the winter. So what do you all think of the look?


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## PorterSq (Apr 17, 2008)

I do it all the time. Typically, I do it with a v-neck sweater, but I've been known to wear a tie under a crew neck sweater too.


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## Helvetia (Apr 8, 2008)

It's a great winter look! I also wear some v-neck sweater vests.


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## cravat (Feb 8, 2009)

I am happy other people enjoy the look too. How often do you all combine the sweater, shirt, and tie combo with a blazer or sports jacket on these occasions?


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

I often wear cardigans with a button down shirt and tie. I have a couple of sweater vests to wear with a blazer or sport coat and would probably have more if I lived in a cooler climate or if I found some light weight ones.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

You didn't make any mention of a jacket, so I assume you mean tie + sweater as an alternative to jacket + tie. 

For me, I never wear a tie without a jacket. Sometimes I doff the jacket at the office, but I will not wear a tie without a jacket. So if I wear a sweater (both crew and v) with a tie, I have a jacket on over it. And it's a look I do about once a week during the winter. I'm particularly fond of a butter yellow v-neck cotton sweater with gray herringbone sack jacket. I also wear fair isle with tweed and various forms of navy sweaters with tweeds. It's a look I enjoy.

JB


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## cravat (Feb 8, 2009)

Joe Tradly said:


> You didn't make any mention of a jacket, so I assume you mean tie + sweater as an alternative to jacket + tie.
> 
> For me, I never wear a tie without a jacket. Sometimes I doff the jacket at the office, but I will not wear a tie without a jacket. So if I wear a sweater (both crew and v) with a tie, I have a jacket on over it. And it's a look I do about once a week during the winter. I'm particularly fond of a butter yellow v-neck cotton sweater with gray herringbone sack jacket. I also wear fair isle with tweed and various forms of navy sweaters with tweeds. It's a look I enjoy.
> 
> JB


Is this only a personal preference, or do you think it is unacceptable to wear a shirt, tie, and sweater without a jacket? I would like to know because especially with heavier sweaters, the addition of a jacket means a lot of bulk indoors, and if I am basically inside the rest of the day, the jacket seems superfluous on these occasions.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Joe Tradly,

+1.

I esp. like the yellow with grey herringbone. You've almost got me longing for some cold weather! The feeling will pass though.

Sweaters and ties: about 1/3 down, my favourite photo of WFB: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=47669&highlight=frat&page=23

Another of my favourite shots is of a UNC frat council from the 1960s. In one of the rows of students near the back, 3 guys are hidden away--all 3 wearing sweaters with ties. Anybody else remember that image?


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## ardbeg1977 (Jan 16, 2009)

cravat said:


> Is this only a personal preference, or do you think it is unacceptable to wear a shirt, tie, and sweater without a jacket? I would like to know because especially with heavier sweaters, the addition of a jacket means a lot of bulk indoors, and if I am basically inside the rest of the day, the jacket seems superfluous on these occasions.


I tend to think this is personal preference. Especially since you mentioned less formal occasions. During winter months I will wear a sweater over an OCBD and tie to the office a couple times a week. Now granted, I work in healthcare, not finance, but if it is done neatly and with style people seem to enjoy and respect the look. Those are actually the days I most often get positive comments from coworkers--the other alternative is that I could use some advice from Joe Tradley on how to dress the rest of the time.:icon_smile_big:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I like the look, but am waiting for someone to make up a rule about it only being okay with sport coats.


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## Moose Maclennan (Apr 20, 2006)

I especially like the understatement of a slightly loosened tie under a crewneck.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

cravat said:


> ...do you think it is unacceptable to wear a shirt, tie, and sweater without a jacket? I would like to know because especially with heavier sweaters, the addition of a jacket means a lot of bulk indoors, and if I am basically inside the rest of the day, the jacket seems superfluous on these occasions.


I think it's fine to wear a shirt, tie and pullover without a jacket, but the pullover should have sleeves and a V-neck. The pullover with sleeves can be a jacket-substitute (the jacket could then become the overcoat-substitute in mild weather); a sleeveless pullover (what the Americans call a sweater-vest) is not a jacket-substitute.
It seems that, from the postings of Joe Tradly and others, Americans dislike the tie-without-jacket look more than Europeans do.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

This is true of the small percentage who post on clothing message boards. I doubt the general public has strong opinions about that.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

*Ties & Sweaters*

I agree with a previous posting that a tie presumes a suit coat, a sport coat, or a blazer.

Now, having said that, in the Air Force, we wore ties with the v-neck, "Wooly Pully" sweater (AKA "Action Man" sweater).

In colder climates, a v-neck cashmere sweater looks nice with a coat and tie.

Otherwise, I see sweaters in the "business casual" category, and suggest a crew-neck sweater with a button-down shirt (so the collar stands up).


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

williamson said:


> I think it's fine to wear a shirt, tie and pullover without a jacket, but the pullover should have sleeves and a V-neck. Americans dislike the tie-without-jacket look more than Europeans do.


I agree and you're correct on the seocnd point.

I do it often. V neck cotton in strong colours, which is a very British thing to do - red and bright green.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I agree -- it's a marvelous look, but one I haven't mastered yet. I happen to have only crewneck sweaters -- wonderful ones, very warm Shetland BB ones, but not ideal for wearing with a tie. And a bit too bulky for most of my sportcoats.

Anyone recommend particular brands of V-necks?


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

Jovan said:


> I like the look, but am waiting for someone to make up a rule about it only being okay with sport coats.


Sweater + Tie (w/o Blazer/Sportcoat) = Revenge of the Nerds

(Just my 2 cents...May look fine on some, but I would never do it.)


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

I think that a sweater/tie combo looks nice if the details are tradly. I've done it before and I'll do it again.

I am also in the camp that says a jacket is required. As some have mentioned above it's ok to take your jacket when your sitting at your desk or running back and forth to the copier. Much beyond that I think you look like a high-schooler wearing a tie without a jacket, regardless of your sweater status.


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## cravat (Feb 8, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys. So from what I gather it seems that this is a matter of opinion among the trad community here. Some people feel very strongly that a jacket is required, while others seem to think it looks quite smart without. 
For my purposes I think I will continue wearing it on occasion, despite some objections. The settings in which I wear the combo are either academic (I am a reasearcher and wear the sweater/tie combo in my office), or at my own home, hosting dinner or cocktails. I also happen to reside in the European context, which many people agree accepts this look much more. 
I do see the sense in wearing the jacket at all times with a tie (as I always do otherwise), and I am not trying to make the sweater a jacket equivalent. I think of it more as dressing up the sweater look, while still remaining casual. I think it is inspired as mentioned above by military and prep school attire, as these are the settings where I have seen it most used.
This has been great help though.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=47669

Whenever I'm in doubt on a question, or if I'm in search of new ideas, I always visit this mighty thread: American Trad Men (Photos). That, combined with our own posters in the What The Heck Are You Wearing Today? thread.

Generally I'm for wearing a sportcoat or blazer if you've got a tie on. Unless you're sitting at your desk. Or flinging your jacket over your shoulder on a warm day.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

williamson said:


> I think it's fine to wear a shirt, tie and pullover without a jacket, but the pullover should have sleeves and a V-neck. The pullover with sleeves can be a jacket-substitute (the jacket could then become the overcoat-substitute in mild weather); a sleeveless pullover (what the Americans call a sweater-vest) is not a jacket-substitute.
> It seems that, from the postings of Joe Tradly and others, Americans dislike the tie-without-jacket look more than Europeans do.


My feelings exactly. I sometimes wear a cardigan with tie alone when it's only a tad chilly. It can essentially be used as a sport coat substitute in most cases.



Pr B said:


> I agree with a previous posting that a tie presumes a suit coat, a sport coat, or a blazer.
> 
> Now, having said that, in the Air Force, we wore ties with the v-neck, "Wooly Pully" sweater (AKA "Action Man" sweater).
> 
> ...


Do you mean the thick ribbed sweaters that have cotton twill epaulettes and and elbow patches?



Ron_A said:


> Sweater + Tie (w/o Blazer/Sportcoat) = Revenge of the Nerds
> 
> (Just my 2 cents...May look fine on some, but I would never do it.)


Even with a sleeved sweater? Fair enough.

What I meant was, "Sweaters are never acceptable with suits, sport coats ONLY." :icon_smile_big: So far no one has made such a broad claim, however.


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## Pr B (Jan 8, 2009)

*Wooly Pully Sweater*

Yes, the very sweater so iconic with the British forces. It was one of the most handsome, practical uniform items we had, IMHO.

Eventually, all branches of the American forces would adopt this sweater: some with a v-neck, others with crewneck. I believe the US Air Force was the only American service to require wearing a tie with it. Nowadays, the tie is optional and they hafta' wear the nametag with it. Sigh.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

williamson said:


> I think it's fine to wear a shirt, tie and pullover without a jacket, but the pullover should have sleeves and a V-neck. The pullover with sleeves can be a jacket-substitute (the jacket could then become the overcoat-substitute in mild weather); a sleeveless pullover (what the Americans call a sweater-vest) is not a jacket-substitute.


This is a decent notion, although I will doff the jacket and proceed with the sweater-vest plus tie if conditions warrant. I'm thinking of crowded meetings I cover, when a bunch of people in a small room really raise the temp.

Most reporters look pretty awful, so I am generally ahead of the curve anyway.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Pr B said:


> Yes, the very sweater so iconic with the British forces. It was one of the most handsome, practical uniform items we had, IMHO.


Agreed, being an RAF Regiment Gunner I of course had the RAF blue one and the Regiment green one, both of which looked great with a stable belt.

Although standard Regt Gunners rarely wore it as a top layer. We nearly always wore a DPM jacket on top of a lightweight polycotton khaki shirt. Or went straight to shirt sleeves in green hairy marys. Rarely did we have Woolly Pully Order. The only people to do this regularly were Regt instructors.
That said the pengiuns, i.e. the rest of the non-aircrew RAF, in blue, were nearly always in Woolly Pully Order or in their horrid No.2 short zipper jackets.

Here's a cavalry Rupert in Woolly Pully order, with regimental stable belt. Properly called Barrack Dress Order (Winter) in the Household Division: https://www.householdcavalry.info/images/bdowbrf.jpg

And for a stark contrast, 2 gunners off my old squadron (II Field Squadron Airborne) on patrol in Belize a few years ago, note the total absence of fripperies such as stable belts, ties and woolly pullys  https://www.rafregiment.net/images/MNT03-104-RAW-UNC%20062%20copy.jpg


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I guess that answers my question...


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## woodenchair (Oct 21, 2008)

In the old days, before the 1950's, if you wore a shirt and were outside, then a tie not an open collar was the preference for the middle and upper classes; and indeed people did wear sweaters before the 1950's, and ties with them, which many period movies and television programs will show.


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## Mannix (Nov 24, 2008)

I like to wear a tie with a cardigan....especially since I can't find "deep v" v-neck sweaters.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

The more I wear a tie...the more I wear a tie. I'm getting to see it as a necessity. Without a tie, there seems to be something missing more often than not, unless I'm just playing in the park with my 8 year old daughter or something.



woodenchair said:


> In the old days, before the 1950's, if you wore a shirt and were outside, then a tie not an open collar was the preference for the middle and upper classes; and indeed people did wear sweaters before the 1950's, and ties with them, which many period movies and television programs will show.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^Joe is absolutely right...without a tie, something just seems to be missing. Hence, I've regularly worn ties with cardigans, V-necks and yes, even crew neck sweaters. When venturing out, in a suit during the cooler months of the year, I will almost always be found wearing a sweater vest under my sport (or even suit) coats. I guess, that's how I spell comfort!


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Joe is absolutely right...without a tie, something just seems to be missing. Hence, I've regularly worn ties with cardigans, V-necks and yes, even crew neck sweaters. When venturing out, in a suit during the cooler months of the year, I will almost always be found wearing a sweater vest under my sport (or even suit) coats. I guess, that's how I spell comfort!


Exactly my opinion and increasingly my practice.


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