# Perfect shoulder width



## Royal_Elegance (May 8, 2006)

Is there a thumb's rule on the width of the shoulders (distance between armhole seams) on a suit coat vs. the size of the head (circumference)? 

If not, how can someone find the perfect width for a bespoke suit? 

What else you think should be taken into account (person's height)?


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## Daywalker (Aug 21, 2005)

Can't say I have ever heard that one before.

The perfect shoulder width will be determined by your tailor and your preference.


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## constantmystery (Apr 18, 2006)

I am sure that if you were to look in an art book you would find the ideal shoulder head size proportion based on classical art, but flusser covers this in his book in a general way as well


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## Royal_Elegance (May 8, 2006)

*Anthropometric Measurements*

Constantmystery, that was a very interesting advice. I looked it up; the rule is for the shoulder line to be three times the head's width, i.e. you can fit three heads across the line.

I've also looked into anthropometric databases. For an adult male the average head width is 6.1" whereas the shoulder line is 18.3". This is a shoulder line to head width ratio of 3.

For a small person, the head width can be no smaller than 5.6" and the shoulder line no smaller than 15.8". This is a ratio of 2.82.
For a large person, the head width can be no larger than 6.7" and the shoulder line no larger than 20.6". This is a ratio of 3.07.

So, if we want our head to look normal, the shoulder line should be 3 times our head's width, a ratio of 3. 
If we want our head to look small, we increase the ratio towards 3.07.
If we want our head to look large, we reduce the ratio towards 2.82.

Of course, reducing the ratio may mean that the shoulder line is smaller than your real size, so the suit won't fit you. I believe in these cases the slope of the shoulders has a visual effect. Even if the ratio is perfect, i.e. 3, slopping shoulders can make the shoulder line look smaller and your head larger. Here, the suit must compensate for the slope.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

TPapakostas said:


> Is there a thumb's rule on the width of the shoulders (distance between armhole seams) on a suit coat vs. the size of the head (circumference)?
> 
> If not, how can someone find the perfect width for a bespoke suit?
> 
> What else you think should be taken into account (person's height)?


This used to confuse me, too, until my tailor explained it to me:

wherein:

So, obviously:

As you can see, color plays a factor, too.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

*CG, Before Shoulders And After Shoulders.*


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## Daywalker (Aug 21, 2005)

I think we just stepped through some kind of portal.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

If you are going bespoke your tailor is your best friend! You should explain in your words what you are looking for and a good, experienced tailor should be able to translate your gobblygook into a meaningful design. Otherwise I would defer to Liberty Ship's calculus (don't forget to take along you TI-85 though).


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Liberty Ship said:


> This used to confuse me, too, until my tailor explained it to me:
> 
> wherein:
> 
> ...


...And people think tailoring is an easy job!


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

As Daywalker says it's down to your tailor to assess your height, head size and physical shoulder width before cutting the suit.
I often find that getting that topseam measurement balanced correctly is far more important than where the customer's actual shoulder bones come to.
For example a client with a large head and narrow shoulders will have to have his suit cut so that it balances out his large head even though the width of the shoulders on the suit are significantly wider than his actual shoulders.


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## RichardS (Nov 20, 2004)

CG, Before Shoulders And After Shoulders. 



CG had quite a large head and sloping shoulders (so said an early Paramount screen test). The first picture was taken about ten years before the second when Grant started in Hollywood. At the time the second pic was shot Grant was an established star and knew exactly which clothes worked best for him so from then on he always had jackets with quite wide shoulders to compensate his "shortcoming".


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

RichardS said:


> CG, Before Shoulders And After Shoulders.
> 
> CG had quite a large head and sloping shoulders (so said an early Paramount screen test). The first picture was taken about ten years before the second when Grant started in Hollywood. At the time the second pic was shot Grant was an established star and knew exactly which clothes worked best for him so from then on he always had jackets with quite wide shoulders to compensate his "shortcoming".


CG also had an 18 inch neck. In fact, he failed his first screen test with this studio assessment noted, "bowlegged and his neck is too thick."


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

Don't poke too much fun. I think Flusser mentions that a suit is entirely based on proportions as they relate to the body.

While a good tailor should know the are of manipulating the proportions of the suit to enhance those of the body from training and experience, not all tailors are as good or trustworthy as the ones who post here. I recall in another thread that mentions battles some have with their tailors over something as basic as sleeve length—and those tailors too should know better.

I think it is very useful to know these geomtric rules of proportion so that one can evaluate fit for oneself. One way is learn to know it when you see it, another is to learn rules of thumb. The latter is easier to learn without a trusted mentor at your side, while the former will come with time.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> ...And people think tailoring is an easy job!


THAT IS THE EASY PART.


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