# Social INFERIOR? Huh?



## Chase Hamilton (Jan 15, 2007)

I am reading Roetzel's book and currently am in the section on overcoats.

Roetzel states "The overcoat always used to serve to highlight distinctions of social rank. The person who helped you on with your overcoat was your social inferior."

What _the_... ?

I admire what he has to say about style, but I can't believe that the man who used to help me off with my coat the barber shop was my _inferior_. His path in life was just a little different than mine.

Gentlemen, what do you think? Am I caught in a game of semantics? Or do you think Roetzel makes a good point?

Kind Regards,

Chase


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Especially in the days before socialism, Europe was a very class-bound society. Knowing one's place was considered a good thing, and people generally knew who was above them or below them.


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## pcunite (Nov 20, 2006)

We are above and below people in this world. It is what we _do_ with this privilege...

*John 13:14*


> If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

pcunite said:


> It is what we do with this privilege...


ummmm...

I'm going to have to disaggree...

...nobody is better than anybody else...we are all people...I think that the point of the verse is saying that if The Lord and Master (In a spiritual sense) can humble himself and help "us little people" we should not feel as though we are above helping each other...we should not have it in our minds that we (as individuals) are better than anybody...

to take the theology down a notch and put it in other words...everybody has a different lot in life...our perceptions of what's "better" are all different, somebody who looks at life being all about money might say that Paris Hilton is better than you...would you believe that is true??? of course not, now somebody who looks at life being all about intellegence might say you are better than her...and as hard as it may be to swallow...that isnt true either...

nobody asked to be born, we're all just here doing our own thing, it's more important to focun on being the best we can be, and not worrying about being better than anybody else (if that makes any sense)...


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

It's a book reflecting it's times. No doubt many of our comments will be looked at with the same reaction someday.


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## pcunite (Nov 20, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ummmm...
> 
> I'm going to have to disaggree...
> 
> ...nobody is better than anybody else...we are all people...


It is hard to express everything I mean in short textual forms. I did not mean some are better, I meant that the position some hold is in authority over others, some are under subjection, I threw out the means of how we get there out of the discussion and brought to topic how we should act...


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

I have no qualms at all about saying that some people are better than others. A responsible family man is a much better and more valuable person than a criminal who abandoned his children. This seems pretty uncontroversial. Likewise, a hardworking poor man is better than a dishonest and violent rich man. A man who is moral and kind but stupid is better than one who is intelligent but cruel and greedy, etc ad nauseum. 

But this is not what Roetzel was talking about. The term social inferior refers to a person's place in the old social hierarchy. A servant was the social inferior of his master. The two groups did not mix socially. Jeeves was Bertie's social inferior, even though he was far superior in all other respects. Still, the term does kind of make me cringe. It doesn't sound as though Roetzel was defending the old arrangement, just giving a little history.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Chase Hamilton said:


> Roetzel states "The overcoat always used to serve to highlight distinctions of social rank. The person who helped you on with your overcoat was your social inferior."Gentlemen, what do you think?


I very much enjoyed reading Roetzel's book and found much of the information presented to be very useful. However, he is full of sh** on this point. Equating a helpful act, reflecting good manners, to social inferiority, is simply wrong (at least, it is these days).


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Chase Hamilton said:


> I am reading Roetzel's book and currently am in the section on overcoats.
> 
> Roetzel states "The overcoat *always used to *serve to highlight distinctions of social rank. The person who helped you on with your overcoat was your social inferior." [emphasis added--AlanC]


I can't check the context of your quote as I'm not near my copy of Roetzel, but it seems from the wording he's speaking of the past, not now. I don't believe Roetzel is advocating this, but rather reporting it. I think we're all aware that people had servants, etc. The exact wording could also be an issue of translation.

I think everyone can rest comfortably that he is not assailing the vision of an egalitarian society.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Is a world class neurosurgeon on the same social level as a janitor? Is that what everyone is saying? I am all for the basic worth of human life and basic respect due everyone until they prove they are not worthy of it, but to even try and pretend "we're all the same" is a load of meadow muffins in my book. I do think the overcoat thing is a relic as actually I would find a gracious host, for instance, ready to assist with an overcoat upon one's departure. But if people are saying a meth head has the same social standing as Jack Welch, well I have to say they are wrong headed. My vision of Western society is that no one is stuck in a caste or social station by birth, but find their own level in adulthood.


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## pcunite (Nov 20, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> ... Is that what everyone is saying? ...
> But if people are saying a meth head has the same social standing as Jack Welch, well I have to say they are wrong headed. ...


If someone does well they should be treated well. A _meth head_ as you say is not worry of praise. However a janitor faithful to job, family, and country is deserving of as much honor as a CEO when both enter a restaurant!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

pcunite said:


> If someone does well they should be treated well. A _meth head_ as you say is not worry of praise. However a janitor faithful to job, family, and country is deserving of as much honor as a CEO when both enter a restaurant!


I would not disagree that if said janitor dresses and acts appropriately and is a paying customer, he/she is entitled to be treated exactly like every other paying customer. But that is not the question I posed. I asked if he/she has the same social standing as a world class neurosurgeon. I come from a very working class background and agree all hard working people deserve basic respect, but I still maintain it is a sham to equate the surgeon and janitor as social equals on a global basis.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I would not disagree that if said janitor dresses and acts appropriately and is a paying customer, he/she is entitled to be treated exactly like every other paying customer. But that is not the question I posed. I asked if he/she has the same social standing as a world class neurosurgeon. I come from a very working class background and agree all hard working people deserve basic respect, but I still maintain it is a sham to equate the surgeon and janitor as social equals on a global basis.


The world must be coming to an end soon, I find I agree with you, hard-core radical pinko [email protected] that I am. LOL :icon_smile_wink:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

mpcsb said:


> The world must be coming to an end soon, I find I agree with you, hard-core radical pinko [email protected] that I am. LOL :icon_smile_wink:


And here I have been operating under the assumption that you have been agreeing with me all along and now I find this is the first time?!


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Is a world class neurosurgeon on the same social level as a janitor? Is that what everyone is saying? I am all for the basic worth of human life and basic respect due everyone until they prove they are not worthy of it, but to even try and pretend "we're all the same" is a load of meadow muffins in my book. I do think the overcoat thing is a relic as actually I would find a gracious host, for instance, ready to assist with an overcoat upon one's departure. But if people are saying a meth head has the same social standing as Jack Welch, well I have to say they are wrong headed. My vision of Western society is that no one is stuck in a caste or social station by birth, but find their own level in adulthood.


What's so great about Jack Welch? I've got equal contempt for meth heads and adulterers.


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## going grey (May 22, 2006)

Maybe the guy who helps you on with your coat is "socially challenged" there ..is that better ?


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

pcunite said:


> If someone does well they should be treated well.


Would you accept a friendly amendment? "If someone does good they should be treated well."


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

fenway said:


> What's so great about Jack Welch? I've got equal contempt for meth heads and adulterers.


Being a meth addict is a defining characteristic IMO. Being an adulterer rarely is and certainly not in the case of Welch, so I find the comparison invalid. I can only speak for myself, but I would much prefer living in Welch's neighborhood than next door to a crack house.

Cheers


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

There are many social distinctions, some are socially better than others. Socially better doesn't mean your a better person, just are from a class considered to be higher. Unless one doesn't believe there are social classes in America.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> There are many social distinctions, some are socially better than others. Socially better doesn't mean your a better person, just are from a class considered to be higher.* Unless one doesn't believe there are social classes in America.*


That is the thing jpeirpont. We are to believe that there are basically three classes in the US:

1) The noble poor. Everyone that is poor, is poor through no fault of their own and it is our duty to support them.
2) The middle class.
3) The greedy, exploitive, born with a silver spoon or stole it, rich. They are the source of all our ills.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

...but...I still must contend that it still comes down to matter of personal standards...I mean, what one person thinks makes somebody "better" than another isnt necessarily what others think...

I mean, yes, there is a class system...and I aggree that it is abit askewed(sp?) as far as making all wealthy people look like miserly fiends and the poor look like victims...and while anybody with eyes can see that such isnt usually the case, we still must look it as, no matter what your social standing, net worth, etc...we all came into this world the same way, and when we are gone, all that we have or have done wont really matter much anyway...I mean...some people really arent lying when they say they arent impressed by wealth...that's the way I look at it...

perhaps this will kind of contradict my first post but, the way I see it...if we all worked on being better people, perhaps, we wouldnt worry about being better than other people...


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ...but...I still must contend that it still comes down to matter of personal standards...I mean, what one person thinks makes somebody "better" than another isnt necessarily what others think...
> 
> I mean, yes, there is a class system...and I aggree that it is abit askewed(sp?) as far as making all wealthy people look like miserly fiends and the poor look like victims...and while anybody with eyes can see that such isnt usually the case, we still must look it as, no matter what your social standing, net worth, etc...we all came into this world the same way, and when we are gone, all that we have or have done wont really matter much anyway...I mean...some people really arent lying when they say they arent impressed by wealth...that's the way I look at it...
> 
> perhaps this will kind of contradict my first post but, the way I see it...if we all worked on being better people, perhaps, we wouldnt worry about being better than other people...


I agree with your last sentiment.
I don't think someones social position is based on an individuals view, but on how ones position viewed by society in general. I also subscribe to the view that most don't see the rich and upper class as one and the same. Though I know this is up to debate.
@ Way, I agree that the rich get blamed for just about everything, funny thing it usually by other rich people or other comfortable people.
I believe one of the best things about the U.S is the poor and working classes don't feel completely disenfranchised and believe they too can one day lead a comfortable life. Though I might be caught up in the so called "American Dream"


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

Also, keep in mind that the transaltion of the book in question is less than perfect.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

For I agree with you that there is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virture and talents.


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## Chase Hamilton (Jan 15, 2007)

You have all made some interesting posts in this thread. Excellent "food for thought."

I still think it is a little funny to think that a man who helps you off with your overcoat is your social inferior due to just that one act, but I think there _are_ plenty of men out there who are my social inferiors, such as those who are knowingly and consistently rude, thinks the rules exist for everyone but them, and do not take time to practice charity with those less fortunate than oneself.

Yes, I believe men such as those are _definitely_ my social inferiors.

Kind Regards,

Chase


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

As a person who was born into a royal family, i do consider the masses as inferior.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

bulla said:


> As a person who was born into a royal family, i do consider the masses as inferior.


JLP/Fogey reborn?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

You may be on to something, Wayfarer!


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## pcunite (Nov 20, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> Would you accept a friendly amendment? "If someone does good they should be treated well."


Sure!


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> JLP/Fogey reborn?


At least Fogey was funny sometimes...

I have a feeling that this Bulla moron will be taking a trip to BANned camp before long...

Na na na-na, Na na na-na, heeey heeey heeey, goooood bye...


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> I have a feeling that this Bulla moron will be taking a trip to BANned camp before long...


Cannot happen fast enough for me. He needs to sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Word...


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