# A question for a tailor re: rise



## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

How do you determine the rise of a pair of pants? Is it as simple as subtracting the inseam from the outseam measurement? (I.e., 42" - 32" = 10" rise.) Or is there a more complicated equation using, say, pi?


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## cactiman (Aug 1, 2009)

I'm not a tailor but I'd say just the difference between inseam & outseam by definition.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

cactiman said:


> I'm not a tailor but I'd say just the difference between inseam & outseam by definition.


Hopefully, a real tailor will come along any minute, but in the meantime I'll have to say this is incorrect. I've measured a considerable number of suits and trousers and the rise is never the difference between the inseam and the outseam. In my (meagre) experience measuring "traditional" suits with a medium rise (11-12.5"), the measurement is something like the inseam +1-2" = outseam. For example, a pair of trousers with a 40" outseam will probably have a 29" inseam, but a 12" rise. The extra inch seems to be taken up by the curvature of the fabric in the crotch area. That's a bad explanation, but you get the idea.

Here are some actual measurements from a suit and pair of trousers I sold on the Trad Thrift Exchange.

Trousers from a BB suit
Waist: 36.5" +2"
Inseam: 29" +2.75
Outseam: 40"
Rise: 12"

From a pair of Oxxford odd trousers
Waist: 38 +3
Outseam: 42
Inseam: 31.5 +1
Rise: 13
Cuffs: 1 5/8

As for determining the actual rise on a pair of trousers, that's easy: measure from the crotch seam (where the four panels of fabric make a + sign and not the bottom of the zipper) to the top of the waistband.


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

Cardinals5 said:


> As for determining the actual rise on a pair of trousers, that's easy: measure from the crotch seam (where the four panels of fabric make a + sign and not the bottom of the zipper) to the top of the waistband.


+1. That has been my understanding as well.

As for pie, have a slice after you take the measurement as a well earned reward.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Cardinals5 said:


> As for determining the actual rise on a pair of trousers, that's easy: measure from the crotch seam (where the four panels of fabric make a + sign and not the bottom of the zipper) to the top of the waistband.


In which direction? To the front or the rear? It seems to me that it need not be the same.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

The rise can be measured at the front and at the rear, and the rear will usually be more than the front. For me, I wear 34" waist and 29.5" inseam, with a 12-12.5" rise in front and 17" at back.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Matt S said:


> The rise can be measured at the front and at the rear, and the rear will usually be more than the front. For me, I wear 34" waist and 29.5" inseam, with a 12-12.5" rise in front and 17" at back.


Absolutely, both front and back rises can be measured and are often listed by companies who provide comprehensive measurements. Most often, though, you'll only find the front rise mentioned in a series of measurements. If you only see "rise" and a single number then the front rise is being measured.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

out seam minus inseam. its as simple as that. now thats for ready to wear. and i believe for M2M also.
top of the waistband down the side seam to the finished length, is the outseam.
from the 4 corner junction of seams at the crotch down the inside seam to the finished length, is the inseam.

custom tailors measure just a bit differently.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> In which direction? To the front or the rear? It seems to me that it need not be the same.


LOL. Indeed, that would depend on whether you carry your "junk in the trunk" or "under the bonnet!"


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

a tailor said:


> out seam minus inseam. its as simple as that.


Hi Alex, what accounts for the measurements I listed above that shows that outseam - inseam does not = the rise? In other words, what happened to the curvature of the rise?


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

OK, there's the vertical (more or less) distance from the crotch "+" to the plane of the waistband, which is what Alex described, and then there are the two distances from the crotch to either the front or the back of the waistband, along the curve of the seam. I suppose the OP's question is which of these would be most commonly quoted by a maker as the rise. Alex says the vertical measurement is what's typically quoted for OTR/MTM as "the" rise, while Cardinal5 thinks it would be the front curved measurement. Does that summarize the discussion and the point of disagreement, if any?


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Kurt N said:


> Alex says the vertical measurement is what's typically quoted for OTR/MTM as "the" rise, while Cardinal5 thinks it would be the front curved measurement. Does that summarize the discussion and the point of disagreement, if any?


Alex and I both agree on how to measure the rise. My point was simply that you can't arrive at an accurate measurement of the rise just by subtracting the inseam measurement from the outseam measurement. For example, many eBay sellers will give you the outseam and inseam measurements, but won't give you the rise. One can't just assume the difference between those two measurements is the actual rise.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Cardinals5 said:


> Alex and I both agree on how to measure the rise.


Alex says it's simple subtraction, and you counter that simple subtraction won't work. How can you possibly be agreeing? You must think that Alex is picturing the measurement along the curve but doesn't understand how this throws off the subtraction. Since he's the real tailor in this thread, I don't find this plausible. Hence I don't agree that you and Alex agree on how to measure the rise. I think you two are talking at cross-purposes because he's talking about the vertical distance (in other words, rise is not a seam measurement at all), whereas you're measuring along the curved seam. I will stick with that interpretation until Alex says otherwise.

EDIT: Part of the reason I can't believe Alex is just confused is that measurement along the seam will be longer than the vertical distance for TWO reasons: (1) the curve, as mentioned, and (2) the slant, i.e, even without the curve of the seam, the straight-line distance from the crotch "+" to the front of the waistband is going be greater than the vertical distance to the plane of the waistband.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

What I meant is that Alex and I both agree that this is how to measure the rise









The second part of my explanation was about the relationship between the inseam and outseam measurements, which is a different matter.

This picture shows that that the measurement of the rise (the curvature shown in the left of the picture [the numbers 9 and 23]) can't be arrived at simply by subtracting the inseam measurement from the outseam measurement. To understand this relationship better, just measure any pair of dress pants you own - you'll see that adding inseam + rise is actually longer than the outseam measurement by itself.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Cardinals5 said:


> What I meant is that Alex and I both agree that this is how to measure the rise


Nothing in Alex's single short post suggests that this is what he means by rise. Did he PM you or something?

I've already agreed with you about the geometry issue--points 9 and 23, etc., etc.--so I'm not sure why you're still trying to drive home that point. The question is not about geometry but about what people (such as Alex) mean by the word "rise."

EDIT: Put it this way: referring to your figure, if I understand Alex correctly, he considers "rise" more or less a synonym for "crotch depth."


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

the rise is a straight line vertical measurement. the height of a mountain is a straight line vertical measure, not measured on its slope. 
picture two parallel lines one at the level of the crotch the other at the level of the waist. 
now draw a line between and perpendicular to them. thats the rise.
its one of the first things an apprentice learns when starting to make trouser patterns. 
the line curving up the back is called the seat seam. front some will call the fly, although that is not truly accurate.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Kurt N said:


> Nothing in Alex's single short post suggests that this is what he means by rise. Did he PM you or something?
> 
> I've already agreed with you about the geometry issue--points 9 and 23, etc., etc.--so I'm not sure why you're still trying to drive home that point. The question is not about geometry but about what people (such as Alex) mean by the word "rise."
> 
> EDIT: Put it this way: referring to your figure, if I understand Alex correctly, he considers "rise" more or less a synonym for "crotch depth."


Ah, gotcha. I'll shut my mouth now and let Alex and other real tailors set the record straight on what they mean by rise.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

first,the picture of the jean being measured is not about measuring the rise. it can be called the front length. 
tailors measuring the pattern rise will use the line O to 1. and the inseam line 1 to 3.
so the rise is a straight line.
true the inseam and out seam have curves.and do not match perfectly. and when we measure the trousers 
we are measuring cloth, there is give in the cloth. so the best we can do is to measure the out seam and inseam.

the curved line 9 to 10 can be called the front length. but not the rise.
the curved line 24 to 21 can be called the back length.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks guys! I knew that it had to be either a subtraction measurement (inseam from outseam) or a seam measurement (junction to waistband), but I wasn't sure which.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

a tailor said:


> first,the picture of the jean being measured is not about measuring the rise. it can be called the front length.
> tailors measuring the pattern rise will use the line O to 1. and the inseam line 1 to 3.
> so the rise is a straight line.
> true the inseam and out seam have curves.and do not match perfectly. and when we measure the trousers
> ...


Thanks, Alex. Your post was very informative. It's now quite clear I've been using the wrong terms.


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## ROBAIRE (Jan 5, 2022)

Pentheos said:


> How do you determine the rise of a pair of pants? Is it as simple as subtracting the inseam from the outseam measurement? (I.e., 42" - 32" = 10" rise.) Or is there a more complicated equation using, say, pi?


USE A DIVISIONAL SQUARE; 1/3 HEIGHT PLUS 1/4 SEAT = TOTAL RISE INCLUDING WAISTBAND


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## drpeter (Nov 21, 2008)

a tailor said:


> the rise is a straight line vertical measurement. the height of a mountain is a straight line vertical measure, not measured on its slope.
> picture two parallel lines one at the level of the crotch the other at the level of the waist.
> now draw a line between and perpendicular to them. thats the rise.
> its one of the first things an apprentice learns when starting to make trouser patterns.
> the line curving up the back is called the seat seam. front some will call the fly, although that is not truly accurate.


Thank you. This is the simplest and clearest definition of _rise_ in a thread that was drifting toward serpentine complexity, LOL. This definition is one that I had assumed was what was meant intuitively by _rise_. That is, vertical height. My understanding of the "curved" measurements. the slopes of the mountain in Alex's analogy, were as _front and back seams_ (or as Alex puts it, fly and seat seams).


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2022)

As someone who has, literally, cut thousands of trousers patterns over my 50 year career, I can tell you categorically that the rise is the difference between the inseam and the side seam. That's it!!


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## paxonus (Dec 26, 2016)

There is a significant difference between what a tailor means by "rise" and what a seller on ebay, or a great many online retailers mean by "rise." The former is the difference between inseam and outseam. The latter is the length from the crotch seam to the top of the waistband. As a buyer you need to be aware of the difference and decide accordingly.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

paxonus said:


> There is a significant difference between what a tailor means by "rise" and what a seller on ebay, or a great many online retailers mean by "rise." The former is the difference between inseam and outseam. The latter is the length from the crotch seam to the top of the waistband. As a buyer you need to be aware of the difference and decide accordingly.


I'd say both numbers are important. It's also important to know if the outseam/true rise measurement is including the waistband or not, because I've seen tailors measure both ways.


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