# Southern Fratters



## mwilliamspr (Sep 8, 2005)

This is from the comments section of a fairly entertaining website: Living the Frat Life 


Sherman McCoy - 2006-07-11 12:26:35

I feel I should share my collection with you.
I've been holding this back so long.

Best definition of Southern fratters: folks living in Mountain Brook, Alabama, or the West End, Virginia, or the Garden District in Louisiana, or Buckhead, Georgia, or Belle Meade, Tennessee (if you've never heard of these Old Guard, old-money, fratter southern suburbs, than you're not a birthrite fratter). Southern fratters wear most of the classic clothes and styles including Lacoste, L.L. Bean, Vineyard vines, Topsiders, Brooks Brothers, tevas, Polo, and especially Patagonia. And the more monograms, the better. They also like outerwear by Barbour, Cole-Haan bit loafers, and wallobies by Clark. Fratters have longish, shaggy, wind blown hair. So do their daddies. They look so much alike. Southerners would attend day schools such as Altamont or Westminster or Harpeth Hall or boarding schools such as Woodberry Forest or Baylor or Foxcroft or Madiera, rather than a New England fratter school. For college, they may attend state schools such as Bama or UVA or UNC or private colleges such as Vanderbilt or W&L or Hamden-Sydney. fratter families live in historic or historic looking houses in nice, woodsy neighborhoods, that are comfortable in size but never ostentatious (no electronic gates!) Inside, family antiques, silver, china and portraits are found and all rooms are always used. It is an elegant yet comfortable environment. Southern fratters and their families belong to private town clubs and country clubs such as the Piedmont Driving Club of Atlanta, the Commonwealth Club of Richmond, and the Mountain Brook Club of Birmingham. Southern fratter families don't emphasize cars as status, but typically drive volvo wagons, mercedes sedans, Jeep Cherokees, and sometimes SUVs. It is more important to have money in the bank than in the driveway! Southern fratters enjoy sports such as tennis, sailing, soccer, lacrosse, and golf, but also quail hunting (in season) and attend Steeplechases in Virginia, Tennessee and Georgia. And they love to watch and attend college football games in fall. While some southern fratters journey northwards to summer on Martha's Vineyard or in Maine, most old southern families summer on Sea Island or St. Simmons's Island in Georgia, the mountain towns of Linville and Highlands in North Carolina, or the north Georgia lakes of Lake Rabun and Lake Burton. Southern fratters believe strongly in giving back to the community and are active members of their church, sit on symphony and museum boards, volunteer at children's hospitals, and run historic preservation societies.All southern fratters seem to know one another and have a large group of friends and acquaintances. Southern fratters have large, extended families and lots of cousins. They always go to the family country place for Thanksgiving and play football and ride horses. fratter as a fashion trend may come and go, by fratter as a lifestyle will always continue and exist, and probably more so in the South than elsewhere. Remember: the Virginia colonies were settled by England before Massachusetts and the rest of New England. And Virginia is very fratter.

A fratter is typically a well-educated, good-looking person who comes from a solid, well-established, "old-money" family. fratters lean towards conservatism, and generally are well-dressed and buttoned-down in public. A fratter is inclined to wear clothes from Brooks, Lacoste, J. Crew, - NOT Abercrombie or American Eagle, as some non-fratters believe. A fratter is usually an all around good guy and would be unlikely to brag about their status or wealth. fratters shouldn't be characterized as spoiled underachievers - if they were, where would top-tier schools like Princeton get their fratty reputations? Colleges and universites are becoming more democratic each year; an unqualified student wouldn't gain admittance on family wealth alone. People who bash fratters have probably only had contact with the A & F, A & E kind of wannabe-fratter - and in many cases I would agree with their comments. But a true fratter is far more understated; they would drive a Volkswagen GTI over a Cadillac, vacation on the Vineyard or on Bermuda rather than on St. Bart's, favor subtlety over ostentation.

A fratter's wardrobe consists of some expensive clothing, but they've had it for the better part of a decade--excluding the two Vineyard Vines polos they got for their birthday and the 50% off sale at Brooks Brothers--indicating the true fratter trait of valuing "classic" over "trendy". We don't buy into the Lacoste trend of now, but we will gladly wear "handed down from dad" Lacoste polo shirt when it still maintained an association with Izod, which was well before it became the token icon of a sold out, soulless and materialistic world.

And as far as the true fratter's garage is concerned, you're more likely to find a boxy Volvo station wagon or sedan (ski rack clutching to the roof for dear life) than you are the Ferrari or Hummer that everybody seems to associate with a fratter.

This brings me to education. fratters spend money on an education for the sole reason of having the proper tools to become successfully established with relative ease upon graduation. It's not for bragging rights, because anybody who brags about going to Harvard because it's "Haaaarvard" and not "the groundwork for their future success" usually winds up the victim of some form of brutal sodomy. A fratter's tendency with regard to education is to go to a top College or University (generally on the east coast, but there's always Stanford and UCLA should a fratter choose to make a respectable deviation from the norm). If for high school, a fratter found Choate, Kent or Andover to be too small, they might choose to attend any of the following public universities: UVA, UNC, Michigan, UCLA, etc.

Finally, to put an end to an abhorrent misconception that everybody seems to maintain: NO, true fratters do not buy their social status. Maybe we'll hang out at a ritzy bar if a friend is getting married, but normally, we avoid those scenes until we're at least 45 years old and drink scotch. The young people who frequent those places are just plain trying too hard. A true fratter knows where to find a classy joint that won't break the bank or the heart. An amazing night on the town for a fratter consists of dinner at J.G. Melon (11$) followed by an evening of wasting away on well-bourbon at T.J.'s (25$), which is an incredibly fun and inexpensive joint, considering it's in Manhattan. If that were my night, which it has been before, I would have just spent less in six hours than the pretentious bastard across the street did in the thirty seconds that it took him to order the Escargot.

A true fratter is a classy individual. We know where to go, who to know and we seriously believe in class, and the true ones of us refuse to buy into pop culture. We do the right things, whether it's holding the door for a lady, mixing our Gin and Tonic with the right proportions, or double-spacing after every period when we write our essays. Truly, "fratter" is not a trend, it is a classic way of life.

Fratters are offspring of the old Anglo-American ruling class, whether or not they rule today. fratters once ruled North and South. Their offspring can be be found in select enclaves in Texas and California, but will always be aware of their roots in the British colonies where their ancestors were Royal Governors, Judges, Presidents of Harvard or Yale, Declaration of Independence signatories or other useful things such as merely rich. fratters have long driveways. Public display of wealth is not fratter. fratters do not drive ferrarris. fratter men do not wear Italian clothes.
Fratters have always been fratters. As far as clothes its a manner of dressing that you are born into. Siblings raid each other's or their parents closets for fratter clothes. All generations dress the same with minor variations. Old fratter clothes are better than new. fratters are not nouveau. Your dad bought his suits at Brooks brothers or had them made bespoke by his tailor. If you are lucky he may have some nice English tweeds you may come into and shirts with double cuffs from somewhere around St. James's in London. Your fratter dad taught you how to shoot (guns are fratty). You learnt how to swim, ride, and sail (water and horses are fratty). Someday you will get dad's very thin gold watch and you will wear it on a striped grosgrain band just like he did. You inherit your grandfather's thin gold cuff-links and thick ivory-handled coat brush engraved with his monogram or coat of arms. You have and often wear a dinner jacket, and possibly a white tie for full dress with gewgaws.
fratters are the gentry. The real ones have pedigrees that tie them to the English gentry and nobility. You may be a 9th cousin once removed of Prince William. fratters came to America in the 17th c. on boats like the Lady Arabella (better than the Mayflower) named in honor of the Earl of Lincoln's daughter.
fratters did not come through Ellis Island. Some of your friends and someone in your family is in the Social Register. You do not belong to the very expensive clubs and socialize with new minted high tech billionaires. You belong to the older clubs that fratters have always inhabited. You may go to a public school but only if you live in the right fratter neighborhood so that you will find other WASP fratters there including . Super fratters will have recognizable "social" names that are like a code only fratters know and by which they can identity each other. fratters are often the nicest people on the planet because they have no need to be otherwise. Since they are born with top inherited social status, they have no need to step on others to get ahead unlike the aggressive middle class strivers and class climbers you will find taking over places like Harvard.
fratters may be city slickers for a while, but they are country people at heart. Fratters love the land, country houses, and country pursuits like steeple chases, point-to-pointing and gentleman farming.
fratters love the past. fratters have oil paintings of their fratter ancestors, often by famous artists of the 18th c. The future belongs to everyone else. fratters know the best stuff (beautiful women, good drink, fine houses, the countryside, hunting, oxford, cambridge, and harvard) has always been around. fratters are not trendy, although the women may be stylilsh and fashionable. Men can be dashing and southern fratters tend to have retained a more aristocratic dash from their royalist ancestors than their buttoned- down puritan cousins.
fratters are not "intellectuals" and find the term somewhat alien and amusing in its pretentions. They may be very smart, even scholarly, highly accomplished and full prefessors in which case they are men of letters. fratters like alcohol and good conversation. Hip flasks and good jokes are fratty. Fratters have beautiful antique furniture (some inherited, some bought at auction or scrounged from estate sales in the country). fratters are rarely found running large American corporations anymore, and except for lucky fratters, the old
fortune is not what it once was although you probably still have your trust fund to take some of the hard edges off of life. Some fratters are born into branches of the family without the money but will live essentially the same way as their more fortunate cousins, just on a smaller scale. fratters won't change for anybody, or anything. Even poor fratters, They have one of the few authentic, distinct and enduring cultures in America reaching back nearly 400 years. fratters like Washington and Jefferson invented America. fratters are usually socially tolerant Republicans, although some may be conservative Democrats.

Happy fratters spot a noovo over Bloody Mary's at the Yacht Club on Sunday: one fratter says "What's the difference between a porcupine and a range rover?" The other fratter answers "With a range rover, the pricks are on the inside!"


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Some interesting stuff, although I feel like I read my life-time fill of the word "fratter." It does seem to me that this person had way too much time on their hands at some point to write this dissertation on "fratters." I think it's also interesting that the word "fraternity" was never used in the article.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

tripreed said:


> Some interesting stuff, although I feel like I read my life-time fill of the word "fratter." It does seem to me that this person had way too much time on their hands at some point to write this dissertation on "fratters." I think it's also interesting that the word "fraternity" was never used in the article.


I'm one of those people who absolutely depise any other word than Fraternity to describe a Fraternity or members thereof. Had fratter been replaced w/ Fraternity, it would have been a much better read for me as well 

Brian


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## Plainsman (Jun 29, 2006)

I should have started the Tom Clancy novel instead. I probably would have finished it quicker. :icon_smile:


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

vwguy said:


> I'm one of those people who absolutely depise any other word than Fraternity to describe a Fraternity or members thereof. Had fratter been replaced w/ Fraternity, it would have been a much better read for me as well
> 
> Brian


As all pledges should be instucted, "You don't call your country a 'c*nt', so don't call the fraternity a 'frat'.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm from a Virginia family myself, but I still think the Cavalier tradition is more mythology than reality.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Having now looked at the web site where this originated, I see that it is all about one kind of college kid being able to distinguish himself and his friends from other kinds of college kids.

Notice how the writer quoted above draws a distinction between the _Mayflower_ and the _Lady Arabella_, then turns right around and pays homage to Harvard several times instead of any number of Southern schools he might have mentioned.

Imagine being young enough to think that having owned an article of clothing for "the better part of a decade" is a long time.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

rojo said:


> I'm from a Virginia family myself, but I still think the Cavalier tradition is more mythology than reality.


Myth is much more convenient, interesting, and comforting than reality.

Without the myth, they'd be middle class just like the majority 85% or so.


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## JDDY (Mar 18, 2006)

Yeah, I completely understand where this is coming from, but it sure doesn't seem too "classy". I guess this article is "noovo".


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

It would seem that I've been posting on the wrong forum. (wink)

Sure the author's piece is not the most eloquent and smacks of immaturity, however I would say that much of his posting could be used as the building blocks of "southern trad". In fact, follow the provided links for several examples of "Southern Lifestyle Trad". Of course, if you feel that trad is only about the clothes-stay away or this thread will erupt into one of "those" arguments. But, when these "young men" grow up and start posting on AAAC, which forum to you think they'll use?

I was even tempted to list the Chevy Tahoe/Suburban as an example of a "southern trad" vehicle in a recent post on the subject. 
Any others share these views?

Allen


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## JDDY (Mar 18, 2006)

You're right Allen. The article nails some things as discussed here; the youth of the author does seem to shine through though. Can't say I'd never take back anything I've ever said.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> As all pledges should be instucted, "You don't call your country a 'c*nt', so don't call the fraternity a 'frat'.


Amen to that. We are cut from the same cloth.


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## J. Fields Collins (May 25, 2005)

*Another youth post....*

Have to agree with JDDY on this one.

He does have some of the details (especially the first paragraph) down but the delivery is all wrong....

Cheers to youth, 
J.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

WAHOO culture is reality-based mythology. Or something like that. Ditto for W&L and HSC, although the latter is mostly reality.


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## Larchmont (Jan 2, 2005)

Sherman McCoy - a Southern Trip Bradford?


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## JohnnyDeeper (Jul 22, 2006)

The aristocracy are like potatoes. The best part of them are buried underground.:icon_smile_big:


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*get back to us when the fratters admit jews*

blacks and catholics. or actually don't even bother. no decent person cares at this point.


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*to be even more explicit, I have been everywhere and known*

everyone. and I think the author this thread is trash, pure and simple.


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## Spooter (Jul 15, 2006)

rojo said:


> I'm from a Virginia family myself, but I still think the Cavalier tradition is more mythology than reality.


Rojo,

the cavalier tradtion may be more mythology than reality -- but then again, does "tradition" have to be "real" or is it just as much an "idea" or "ideal"?? -- but those Southerners such as Shelby Foote, to name but one example, have attributed a conciousness of a Cavalier Tradition to the South. In fact, he claims that we shouldn't rule out entirely that the seeds of the South's defeat were sown in this very tradition. That these gentlemen, who learnt their ethics from Dumas and Scott, were woefully ill-equipped to fight the War with such an "arsenal".

--Spooter


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*My family owns land in the Caolinas which*

I plan to buy this year but at some point southerners need to know (hey there is GWB phrase) the north east thinks it is better off by accepting, blacks women jews and oh my god, irish catholics into their clubs. there may be some that some that don't today. but really, all that counts is some money. the places I know only care about the fees. and I don't want to belong to any goofy place that cares about much else.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Actually I recognize two Cavalier traditions. One is the tradition of ethics and gentlemanly conduct embodied among other places in the honor code at Washington & Lee University and in what my great-great-grandfather called "our plantation manners in Virginia." That Cavalier tradition, idea, and ideal was and is very real. 

The other Cavalier tradition is the notion that anyone with 17th century Virginia tidewater ancestry is descended from royalists (the Cavaliers) who fled England and took refuge in Virginia after Charles I was executed in 1649, and further, that these exiles were noblemen. The writer above, Sherman McCoy, seems to buy into that mythology when he says "The real ones have pedigrees that tie them to the English gentry and nobility." Such Cavaliers apparently did come to Virginia, but their numbers were a tiny fraction of the total population there. Colonial Virginia genealogy has been a hobby of mine for 15 years. If Sherman McCoy has such a pedigree, I'd like to see it and the documentation to support it.


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## Spooter (Jul 15, 2006)

tom22 said:


> but really, all that counts is some money. the places I know only care about the fees. and I don't want to belong to any goofy place that cares about much else.


Surely, if that goofy place cares not a whit about anything except fees, then your going to get some of those residents of the apartment bulding, which you now so deride, aren't you?

--Spooter


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

*Master Of The Universe ?*

"Sherman McCoy" is the name of the main character in BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES by Tommy Wolfe, from up Richmond way. SM is a smug, arrogant "Master Of The Universe" in the book. This Sherman McCoy may have had tongue planted firmly in cheek. Or? I waited for someone else to comment about the literary SM. Ya'll coulda been "had". Much ado....?


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

There are two kinds of greek organizations:

"frats": these are fraternities that are like the one in animal house--filthy house, cheap beer, dangerous drinking.

and

"fraternities": composed of classy and responsible greek men.


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## johnsamson (Sep 10, 2005)

Untilted, which would you say are the top fraternities at UVA?


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

The very concept of "top house" has always confused me. It's definitely something people always ask me. What makes a house a "top house"? money/endowment? history? Architecture? toughest pledging process? Gets the most girls? Most famous alums? Every house at UVa believes in a unique set of values and has a unique personality as well. To say one kind of character/personality is superior to the other is not very logical, as people should find the houses that "fit" them best. Nevertheless, to answer your question, the most common answer would be (as seen on fratty.net forum before it was banned for racist remarks):

Kappa Alpha (i don't know if it's KA society or KA order)
St. Anthony's Hall
Delta Kappa Epsilon
Zeta Psi

The above four do share some similarities: Southern, wealthy, WFS/St.Christopher/St. Albans alums, predominantly FFVs (first families of Virginia).


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## johnsamson (Sep 10, 2005)

Sounds accurate. The KA at UVA is a chapter of the Order


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

johnsamson said:


> Sounds accurate. The KA at UVA is a chapter of the Order


Which school did/do you attend?


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Untilted said:


> There are two kinds of greek organizations:
> 
> "frats": these are fraternities that are like the one in animal house--filthy house, cheap beer, dangerous drinking.
> 
> ...


Can't say I have EVER heard of anyone identify with the other fraternity in Animal House.

"Frats" were something for guys who really should have just stayed in the dorm, hanging out at the student union bowling and playing video games.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Do we really need a new name/label/category for upper/upper middle class college educated Anglo-saxons who dress/live somewhat traditionally and may have belonged to fraternities?


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## 321WCameron (May 7, 2006)

I rather enjoyed the read! I also lament that the author decided to use a derivative of the word "frat", but I'm willing to forgive him. Although I'm not from a certified "old-South" family, I do enjoy meeting people who send their kids to Woodberry because of the great academics and family tradition, and who drive an old truck because it still runs great and there's plenty of room for the dog. 

As for the style of the fraternity men on campus (UNC alum), a fraternity brother of mine brilliantly observed that the objective seems to be to own the best clothing, only to make them look as wrinkled and hole-filled as possible.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

Untilted said:


> There are two kinds of greek organizations:
> 
> "frats": these are fraternities that are like the one in animal house--filthy house, cheap beer, dangerous drinking.
> 
> ...


Oh please.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Rocker said:


> Oh please.


Haha, I must agree.


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## HSC87 (Mar 28, 2006)

.


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## Financier (Mar 6, 2006)

several college franternities use the term "fratter" in place of the word brother, although they would never use "frat" in place of fraternity. In other words, in some organizations, "fratter" is the proper term.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

_Frater_ is indeed the Latin word for brother, and _frater_ is also in my _Webster's New World Dictionary_ as an English word meaning "comrade or fraternity brother."

"Fratter" is pidgin English and just because it might be in common use among undergraduates does not make it proper.


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## Financier (Mar 6, 2006)

you are correct - frater, not fratter, is the ocrrect usage.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

rojo said:


> _Frater_ is indeed the Latin word for brother, and _frater_ is also in my _Webster's New World Dictionary_ as an English word meaning "comrade or fraternity brother."
> 
> "Fratter" is pidgin English and just because it might be in common use among undergraduates does not make it proper.


Agreed. The thread title, 'Southern Fratters', might make one think of a breakfast side item before associating it with a members of a collegiate fraternity.


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

Untilted said:


> The very concept of "top house" has always confused me. It's definitely something people always ask me. What makes a house a "top house"? money/endowment? history? Architecture? toughest pledging process? Gets the most girls? Most famous alums? Every house at UVa believes in a unique set of values and has a unique personality as well. To say one kind of character/personality is superior to the other is not very logical, as people should find the houses that "fit" them best. Nevertheless, to answer your question, the most common answer would be (as seen on fratty.net forum before it was banned for racist remarks):
> 
> Kappa Alpha (i don't know if it's KA society or KA order)
> St. Anthony's Hall
> ...


At schools like UVA and Vanderbilt where there is an influx of northerners, I think the definition of what was a top house would be considered different. I would consider the houses that had the most popular, but also refined southerners to be the best (I was in one of the afformentioned fraternities at UVA) but in terms of who had the best parties and who got the best looking (though not necessarily classiest) girls, there would be a different answer.

At much more southern schools like Ole Miss or Alabama, all the points you made about money, establishment etc. go hand and hand with everything else.

I felt dumber after reading that essay. My family's was poor in the 19th century. We're pretty well off now, but I don't have a trust fund or anything like that. I went to a private school with a lot of the FFV types and so I pledged a fraternity with my friends. I never got an inkling of the pretentiousness in that description among my brothers.


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## johnsamson (Sep 10, 2005)

Maddox - I'm going to guess you weren't in KA or the Hall


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

I was a DKE.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Due to modern (liberal) leanings of societal pressures, the modern fraternity bears almost no resemblance to the organization I pledged in 1989. Similarly, I'm sure the alum who visited at homecoming games thought the same of us. 

I was taught never to use the word frat, and everytime I hear the word used, I cringe uncontrolably. I think these generalizations are meant tongue in cheek, and I for one take them that way. 

Tau Kappa Epsilon.


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## HoustonTEX (Mar 21, 2005)

I have read the fratty.net message board and I have been disgusted by the immaturity. It is a bunch of kids that want to prove to other kids that they are more privileged and "old money" then others. They look at movies like "American Psycho" and "Wall Street" and do not see the negative social commentaries made but quote and praise the characters. They are even horrible to other members of the message boards.

I loved my fraternity days. I am still close to many of my fraternity brothers and we still talk about our wilder days. I do like the fact that when I go to football games the fraternity men still dress basically the same way we did 10+ years ago. I hope fratty.net and all other boards in the same vain are taken down. I fear that impressionable 18 year old will see these boards and believe this is how they should behave.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

HoustonTEX said:


> I have read the fratty.net message board and I have been disgusted by the immaturity. It is a bunch of kids that want to prove to other kids that they are more privileged and "old money" than others.


That's it, yes.


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

HoustonTEX said:


> I have read the fratty.net message board and I have been disgusted by the immaturity. It is a bunch of kids that want to prove to other kids that they are more privileged and "old money" then others. They look at movies like "American Psycho" and "Wall Street" and do not see the negative social commentaries made but quote and praise the characters. They are even horrible to other members of the message boards.
> 
> I loved my fraternity days. I am still close to many of my fraternity brothers and we still talk about our wilder days. I do like the fact that when I go to football games the fraternity men still dress basically the same way we did 10+ years ago. I hope fratty.net and all other boards in the same vain are taken down. I fear that impressionable 18 year old will see these boards and believe this is how they should behave.


I looked at it a few times (I think it was taken down after some big controversy over black fraternities at South Carolina.) and I found it amusing.

The point of the board wasn't to be serious. I can assure you that my fraternity brothers and I loved American Psycho and Wall Street while choosing to ignore the social commentary (a huge difference between failing to see it) before fratty.net came around.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

There was a thread called "Nig*** joke of the day". It was awful. The anti-minority-into-greek-system sentiment was strong too. it's quite sad, that some of the ugliest posts were made by brilliant kids from top schools.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> If for high school, a fratter found Choate, Kent or Andover to be too small, they might choose to attend any of the following public universities: UVA, UNC, Michigan, UCLA, etc.


I resemble that remark.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Kappa Alpha (i don't know if it's KA society or KA order)
> St. Anthony's Hall
> Delta Kappa Epsilon
> Zeta Psi


Don't forget Chipsy! (Chi Psi, the Lodge). Some terrific parties in the late 80s there...lots of East Coast Establishment types as members. And this from a tudor house way off campus.


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## Tito (Aug 6, 2006)

One important note that was over looked was the fact that the "fratter" would owe dues and never pay them! Even to this day! But got all the benefits that the suckers did.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Rereading some old threads. Decided to pull my Clarks Wallabys out of the closet and boy are they comfortable. I love the look, but always wondered if the look fit my Trad ways. In HS, they were the shoe of the long haired smokers, and are now associated with hip hop artists, but they are too comfortable to be ignored. 

Would they go well with khakis and cords, or just jeans? THanks for letting me rant.


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## Mel (Dec 12, 2006)

*The long post is quite foolish*

Your long post about a romantic view of the south is rubbish. My family were German Jews who came to the deep South pre Civil war and experienced only minimal antisemitism. As the world changed and the immigration of Irish,Italian and Eastern Jews brought energy,innovation and growth to the U.S.,Ellis Island was not noovo but a gateway of freedom. It might upset the writer that the city clubs he cites in NYC as well as the South have some Jews Catholics and even a few African Americans. Sorry you'd be upset. The stereotype you glorify was a prototype of a bigoted segregated time . Your classest reverie is sort of a "gone with the wind". Not all Woodbury Students wear brooks suits or hang out at the "club". Conversely some public school grads (horror of horrors) are members of the toniest clubs now. This forum is about clothes not an image of bigotry and exclusivity. After all ZBT at UVa has had its share of leaders who are quite preppy and also civic leaders.


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## Mel (Dec 12, 2006)

*The long post is quite foolish*

Your long post about a romantic view of the south is rubbish. My family were German Jews who came to the deep South pre Civil war and experienced only minimal antisemitism. As the world changed and the immigration of Irish,Italian and Eastern Jews brought energy,innovation and growth to the U.S.,Ellis Island was not noovo but a gateway of freedom. The same distortions about who was related to the King of England is similar to the German Jewish prejudice towards the Russian and Polish coreligionists. 
It might upset the writer that the city clubs he cites in NYC as well as the South have some Jews Catholics and even a few African Americans. Sorry you'd be upset. The stereotype you glorify was a prototype of a bigoted segregated time . Your classest reverie is sort of a "gone with the wind". Not all Woodbury Students wear brooks suits or hang out at the "club". Conversely some public school grads (horror of horrors) are members of the toniest clubs now. This forum is about clothes not an image of bigotry and exclusivity. After all ZBT at UVa has had its share of leaders who are quite preppy and also civic leaders.


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

A.Squire said:


> It would seem that I've been posting on the wrong forum. (wink)
> 
> Sure the author's piece is not the most eloquent and smacks of immaturity, however I would say that much of his posting could be used as the building blocks of "southern trad". In fact, follow the provided links for several examples of "Southern Lifestyle Trad". Of course, if you feel that trad is only about the clothes-stay away or this thread will erupt into one of "those" arguments. But, when these "young men" grow up and start posting on AAAC, which forum to you think they'll use?
> 
> ...


I'm inclined to agree with your analysis, excepting that I think it could be well describing trads both north and south. However, the very act of writing this type of chest pounding puff piece is the antithesis of the manners of those it describes. I especially like the acknowledgment of the class in decline- fortunes faded, no longer at the helm of the major corporations, etc. I'm glad I've looked no further into the website from which it came as it sounds pretty lackluster at best. As far as those who take offense at the dissertation, I'd point out that many of the alleged sons of the Lady Arabella (or the Susan Constant, Godspeed or Discovery) and 6th cousins of the Prince would find that their ancestors may have likely come over as indentured servants, thereby lower than slaves and slightly higher than chickens on the social hiearchy of the day (as indentured servants were considered, in the thinking of humans as property, a more disposable labor force/ commodity by nature of their contract and thus were worked as such. Those that made it through the seven years were free though -so this is not a "who had it worse" type of statement). Were the dissertation a bit more "this is who we are" and less "this is who you aren't" it could be funnier. Self satire; an important thing.

To the poster who took offense:

1) it's a quote, not a post- the thread starter didn't write it, some kid did.
2) the original inhabitants of the land looked down their noses at the noovahs when they got off their boats in the 1600's- look what happened to them! (besides, those Jamestown types will always be Noovahs in the eyes of the Roanoke Islanders)

There always will be threads of the fabric of the old and (often no longer) ruling elite in the fabric of the trad as many trads have run things once in a while, but the fabric is not reserved solely for those of us who may or may not be blue bloods at all. You don't have to be white. Or rich (you may be financially worse off after reading this forum), or anything. I may be a WASP from New England. Or the son of a lace curtain Irish family. Or both. Or a cab driver in England. who cares? (as long as you don't wear darts....just kidding). All are welcome.
OK the eggnog's getting to me.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

rojo said:


> I'm from a Virginia family myself, but I still think the Cavalier tradition is more mythology than reality.


"In Virginia, all geese are swans."

--John Adams


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## newbie1984 (Mar 30, 2007)

you wouldn't call stephan, steve would you? Give me a break.

I wouldn't call my fraternity a frat if it also meant ****.

I swear I want to punch every single person I've ever met in my life in the face who says "you wouldn't call your country a ****"


If you're the type of person who says this you might as well get a big tattoo on for your forehead that says "I'm stuck in middle management for the rest of my life."

...and now you know


and by the way I've got half a feeling somebody will ban me for saying this so I also want to add to the guy who was wearing a black jacket to his job interview and then wound up not getting the job. Black jackets are considered very poor taste unless your attending a funeral or in the mafia.


....GO GATORS!


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

How interesting. A friend just pointed out to me that whoever wrote that piece in the original post is either the same person or blatantly plagiarizing from a definition of the word “preppy” on urbandictionary.com (third definition down) that focuses on the South. Large sections are pretty much copied ad verbatim.

Actually, after having amused myself reading some of the definitions, I would lean more towards plagiarization as the author seems to have taken chunks from other definitions on the site as well. It would seem to be a hodge-podge of more or less quotations from various posted definitions.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

newbie1984 said:


> and by the way I've got half a feeling somebody will ban me for saying this so I also want to add to the guy who was wearing a black jacket to his job interview and then wound up not getting the job. Black jackets are considered very poor taste unless your attending a funeral or in the mafia.
> 
> ....GO GATORS!


Drinking after the game?

LOL


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Maybe there is a way to turn this thread into something positive, instead of calling names or rehashing the same old rubbish? I would love to see a productive discussion, although maybe we have covered everything Southern-prep related?


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