# Sherlock Holmes



## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Does anyone else like the clothing Sidney Paget depicted in the original Sherlock Holmes stories. (I would post pictures, but the will not show up.) 
I think they provide an excellent window in to late Victorian/early Edwardian fashion.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Holmes is typecast in the Deerstalker, Inverness and Calabash pipe, the last a theatrical devise by a stage actor .What the Basil Rathbone series did to Doctor Watson is insulting.

There are many clubs and references for the Homes fan. I own one of the 19th century hansom cabs used in those movies. I bought it when Hollywood went on a selling binge some years back. Now they rent it back which pays for my own horse's keep.


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## Dogtooth (Sep 9, 2008)

Have you seen the 80's Granada (UK TV company) adaptions with Jeremy Brett as Holmes and David Burke/Edward Hardwicke playing your good self.

I think most people would say these programs took great pride in their attention to detail and this included the clothes. I would guess they spent a small fortune at Saville Row during production.

You can buy them on DVD or most probably watch them online.

Other ITV programs worth searching for for historical and good clothing would be *David Suchet as Hercule Poirot (30's), *Michael Kitchen in Foyle's War (40's), Michael Gambon as Maigret (Not so well dressed but still smarter than today and covering the 50's) and if you really want period detail how about Derek Jacobi as a medieval monk in Cadfael, with very good detail as to clothing and day to day life.

Another one with Michael Kitchen but not a series is Dandelion Dead a two parter with a high degree of fashion (20's style).

Its not just the BBC making good TV in the UK

Bob


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## clothesboy (Sep 19, 2004)

Kav said:


> Holmes is typecast in the Deerstalker, Inverness and Calabash pipe, the last a theatrical devise by a stage actor .What the Basil Rathbone series did to Doctor Watson is insulting.
> 
> There are many clubs and references for the Homes fan. I own one of the 19th century hansom cabs used in those movies. I bought it when Hollywood went on a selling binge some years back. Now they rent it back which pays for my own horse's keep.


Kav,

If I'm ever in California I know who and what I want waiting for me at the airport.:icon_smile_big:


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## Zingari (Jul 9, 2007)

Agree with the Granada production - Jeremy Brett was superb as Holmes. Such a shame he died in middle age. He could have carried the role off for years.

Speaking of great fashion - What about Robert Powell as Richard Hannay in 'The 39 Steps?'


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Zingari said:


> Agree with the Granada production - Jeremy Brett was superb as Holmes. Such a shame he died in middle age. He could have carried the role off for years.


Agreed. My local PBS station has been rebroadcasting these recently and I'm loving them. Brett was so overwhelmingly perfect in the role that I can't imagine anyone else doing justice. Apparently he had a speech impediment early in life, but daily training & practice resulted in him overcoming the impediment, giving us his incredibly precise diction.

The Paget drawings are great and were the reason for the deerstalker and Inverness cape. I have a collected works with the Paget drawings which states that the costume is not mentioned in the text, but Paget just used normal fashions of the period in his drawings and it stuck.

The Brett television series uses the deerstalker and Inverness only rarely, when him and Watson are out in the country.


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

The Granada Series was the best. Jeremy Brett did not act as Holmes he was Holmes. They took such care with every little detail, down to the Watson's picture of Gordon on the wall.

To Kav, 
I think the problem with Rathbones' Deerstalker was that it was worn in town. Holmes, though depicted with such a hat in the original illustrations, only wore it in its natural habitat, the country. He wore a proper hat in town.

I personally dislike Rathbones' movies because _I_ am portrayed as a bumbling fool.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Dr.Watson said:


> Jeremy Brett did not act as Holmes he was Holmes.


+1000


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Dr.Watson said:


> Does anyone else like the clothing Sidney Paget depicted in the original Sherlock Holmes stories. (I would post pictures, but the will not show up.)
> I think they provide an excellent window in to late Victorian/early Edwardian fashion.


Dr. Watson:

I'm a big fan of Sherlock Holmes!

To post photos read the third "Sticky" post on this Forum.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

A UK maker of inverness capes posted here some time back With some good Holmes links. I know it was very appropriate in the country. I want one in ghilly Green.

The only problem picking anyone up at LAX are the carry laws. My 26" Westly-Richards in .30 WR would do nicely for drivebys though.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

Yes, certainly a fan, although I don't really carry it out into practice often (I do have a s/b frock coat and a 3-button morning coat which can pass for that period which I do sometimes wear, but not usually with the stick-up or high wing collar, as I used to do once upon a time.)


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Ahh... Sherlock Holmes. I was reading the third of Conan Doyle's four collctions just last night. Complete with Sidney Paget's illustrations. They are indeed beautiful. And capture the darkness yet subtle ellegance of the period so very well.



























I especially like the way that all dress is so accutely depicted.

There are so many even more beautiful illustrations in the Wordsworth Editions of the canon.

Happy Google-image-hunting!


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

The illustrations are wonderful indeed.

I love the one in A Case of Identity with Holmes half-asleep. Brilliantly languid & ethereal depiction. There's also a great one in the Blue Carbuncle with Holmes and Watson closely examining the felt hat of Mr Henry Baker, perched as it is on the back of a chair. And the swamp-adder in Specked Band, wrapped around the villain's head like a turban. 

Silver Blaze has some of the classic Deerstalker illustrations. The illustration of Holmes and Watson in the railway carriage Mr Pipps has posted above comes from that story, I think.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

*Holmes & Watson sum it up!*

"Excellent!" I cried.
"Elementary," said he.


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks Mr. Pipps for the pictures, beautiful, simply beatiful, selections. 

I have always rather liked the one in "The Crooked Man", with Holmes hanging his hat on Watson's hat peg, and the several illustrations in "Hound of the Baskervilles," my personal favorite story. 

I am in the process of turning "Speckled Band" into a screen play for some friends and I to do over Christmas break.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Fans should search for the collected Sherlock Holmes stores which were issued in a single omnibus book. It included all of the Holmes stories, plus most (if not all) of the Paget illustrations. I've seen several copies floating around in used bookstores up here, so they seem to be readily available. Seeing the original illustrations in the context of their stories is priceless.

By the way, plans are afoot for another big-screen adaptation of Holmes set for 2009 or sometime. Apparently, Holmes will be played by Robert Downey Jr, Watson by Jude Law, and the director will be...get this...Guy Ritchie. I cannot think of a _less_ appropriate cast or director for this material.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Dr.Watson said:


> The Granada Series was the best. Jeremy Brett did not act as Holmes he was Holmes. They took such care with every little detail, down to the Watson's picture of Gordon on the wall.


Let's not forget horse dung in Baker Street...

https://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=holmesti7.jpghttps://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php


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## Scrumhalf (Dec 20, 2007)

Doctor Damage said:


> Fans should search for the collected Sherlock Holmes stores which were issued in a single omnibus book. It included all of the Holmes stories, plus most (if not all) of the Paget illustrations. I've seen several copies floating around in used bookstores up here, so they seem to be readily available. Seeing the original illustrations in the context of their stories is priceless.


The best collection in my opinion is the Annotated Sherlock Holmes. I have the Baring Gould edition which I swear by, but I heard that the new Leslie Klinger edition is pretty good as well.


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

I am looking forward to seeing Downey as Holmes.


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## Gradstudent78 (May 7, 2003)

Bird's One View said:


> I am looking forward to seeing Downey as Holmes.


Photos just released:
https://justjared.buzznet.com/2008/10/10/robert-downey-jr-as-sherlock-holmes-first-pictures/


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Oh well, it could have been Tom Cruise and John Travolta doing a scientologist buddy film.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Gradstudent78 said:


> Photos just released:
> https://justjared.buzznet.com/2008/10/10/robert-downey-jr-as-sherlock-holmes-first-pictures/


Is that Kirsten Dunst under the heavy hooker make-up/dress in one of the other pics in that album?

I presume Holmes is just in one of his many disguises in that pic and it's not that he's hit hard economic times!


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## Gradstudent78 (May 7, 2003)

Holdfast said:


> Is that Kirsten Dunst under the heavy hooker make-up/dress in one of the other pics in that album?
> 
> I presume Holmes is just in one of his many disguises in that pic and it's not that he's hit hard economic times!


She's not in the cast list so I would guess no. I think it's Rachel McAdams.


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Lets hope and pray that is a disguise, if not this will be a very new type of Holmes.


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## Zingari (Jul 9, 2007)

If anyone is interested in the Inverness Cape I have actually found a company that still makes them!

https://www.invernesscapes.co.uk/index.html


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

While we are compiling our roster of great fictional detectives, I have a proposal- BRING BACK CHARLIE CHAN! I want a chinese actor portraying him!


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

If anyone is interested in the Inverness Cape I have actually found a company that still makes them!

https://www.invernesscapes.co.uk/index.html
__________________
Yes I saw that site yesterday, you can even get a matching Deerstalker. 
I can't really spend money on that right now, but someday...


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Gradstudent78 said:


> She's not in the cast list so I would guess no. I think it's Rachel McAdams.


Ah, thanks.



Zingari said:


> If anyone is interested in the Inverness Cape I have actually found a company that still makes them!
> 
> https://www.invernesscapes.co.uk/index.html


Interesting... one day!


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

*"My dear Holmes!"*

My personal favourite quote from throughout the canon.

Oh you can just imagine Watson saying it, or rather, 'ejaculating' it, as he so often did, and with the pure love that he holds for his closest and most esteemed of all friends.


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## 82-Greg (Apr 13, 2008)

Gradstudent78 said:


> Photos just released:
> https://justjared.buzznet.com/2008/10/10/robert-downey-jr-as-sherlock-holmes-first-pictures/


I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Starbucks was available in Victorian England. :icon_smile_big:


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## Dogtooth (Sep 9, 2008)

I can only assume that "Holmes" is supposed to be in disguise, but have a look at his shoes, I really do hope this isn't for real.

To be is honest I doubt if I will go and see this version and really doubt they can surpass J Brett.


Bob


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Dogtooth may be right, the caption below speaks of Holmes' "new look." I do not understand the shoe connection, however. If that is Holmes' new look that will completely settle it for me, I will start a boycott of the film. (Wait, on second thought that would give it free publicity.) 

Also, notice that Irene Alder is in the cast. Do I sense a love story?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Albert Bartholemew Starbuck was our whalerman equivelent to Paul Bunyon, Jo Magarak and Pecos Bill.
He is remembered in the Merchant Marine intials for Able Bodied Sailor. He would have drunk coffee as anamerican post revolution as his commerical namesake now sells.
Holmes was a tea drinker.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

Dr.Watson said:


> Dogtooth may be right, the caption below speaks of Holmes' "new look." I do not understand the shoe connection, however. If that is Holmes' new look that will completely settle it for me, I will start a boycott of the film. (Wait, on second thought that would give it free publicity.)
> 
> Also, notice that Irene Alder is in the cast. Do I sense a love story?


I assume that the caption writer was being facetious, or did not realise that Holmes was required to don seedy disguises on a number of occasions. Wasn't he an ostler in Scandal in Bohemia?


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes, he was a cab driver (he probably stole the cart from Kav, but I don't think the story is "A Scandal in Bohemia". Thats the problem with Mrs. Alder's prescence. I believe , the story has something to do with an anti-British conspiracy plot, and is not in the original stories.​
-Huzzah-​


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Dr.Watson said:


> Yes, he was a cab driver (he probably stole the cart from Kav, but I don't think the story is "A Scandal in Bohemia". Thats the problem with Mrs. Alder's prescence. I believe , the story has something to do with an anti-British conspiracy plot, and is not in the original stories.


I've read on a gaming forum (of which I am a member) that this movie is based on a graphic novel and is an "action" film. I shall, of course, be avoiding this movie like the plague.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the very nice Prince of Wales suit that the director, Guy Ritchie, is wearing in those Downey pics. I have to agree about the odd choice of shoes for Holmes. Perhaps all of those shots won't have closeups of his feet, so he can wear something comfortable for standing and walking a lot.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The Cleveland Bay ( no red leg interbreeding) trots down the dry ice fogged street. He hits his mark and the left wheel goes up the hidden ramp, flipping the Hansom Cab and bursting into flames. Watson approaches, double gripped Weaver stance with his Bulldog .455, periodicaly raising it to the sky for no tactical reason. He kicks the door open and yells 'CLEAR!'


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

A huge fan of Sherlock Holmes. Best portrayed as I'm sure we all agree by Jeremy Brett.

*Caleb Carr's Doctor Kreizler* of two novels is also a favourite.
Not forgetting of course that Carr recently wrote a Sherlock Holmes novel, The Italian Secretary, which I thoroughly enjoyed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Italian_Secretary

Fans of both Doyle & Carr are now of course calling for Carr to invite Holmes to Gotham to work with Kreizler or the Dr. to London to work with Holmes.

I also enjoyed Laurie R King's interpretation of Holmes in the first couple of decades of the 20th C as seen through the eyes of Holmes' young American wife Mary Russell in the *Mary Russell Mysteries* series. The only one of which dragged and was altogether unsatisfactory was "Locked Rooms".
All the others, which I've read, were superb.

*Ian Rankin's John Rebus* is my favourite contemporary detective, mostly operating in Edinburgh, in the 21st C. 
Years ago of course I read all the *Morse* novels.
Another favourite contemporary detective is *Peter Robinson's Inspector Banks*. Although Banks' novels can drag a little bit too.

The hard-boiled American stuff has never appealed to me neither the splatter type detective/CSI stuff.

Reginald Hill and PD James were for me just one long snooze-fest, boring. 
Minette Walters, Elizabeth George and Caroline Graham all seem to deal more in tweedy quaint English countryside murder (a la some of Agatha Christie's work) rather than real police work. The Midsomer Murders are more farce than detective series.

But by far and away my most favourite detective of all time, more so than Rebus, Holmes and Morse is *Andrew Martin's Jim Stringer- railway detective. *
Read them in order starting with The Necropolis Railway (which really existed) and just soak up the ambience he creates of steam railways and crime and England in the golden years before the Great War.

You won't regret it I promise you.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

And don't forget G.K. Chesterton's father Brown mysteries. 

A bit of scholarship I should have persued was Conan-Doyles interest in 'spiritualism.'

The shock of WW1 revived many comforting beliefs, like the lovely movie about the Fairie phenomenon, the Angel of Mons etc.
I wish C. Evans- Wentz, first UC of California Anthropology Doctorate ( The Fairie faith in Celtic Countries- only Berekeley would do this!) had returned to look at the urban revival. But he was forever off into tibetan studies the rest of his career.

Maybe our love of Holmes is like those fairies. A Inverness is so much more reassuring in tough times than a tank top and flip flops, or Britney Spears flitting about without wings to hold her up!


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

Kav said:


> Holmes is typecast in the Deerstalker, Inverness and Calabash pipe, the last a theatrical devise by a stage actor .What the Basil Rathbone series did to Doctor Watson is insulting.
> 
> There are many clubs and references for the Homes fan. I own one of the 19th century hansom cabs used in those movies. I bought it when Hollywood went on a selling binge some years back. Now they rent it back which pays for my own horse's keep.


I thought Basil Rathbone smoked a Peterson.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanks Kav, you've just reminded me of one of the best detective novels I've read in years, and written surprisingly enough by Ben Elton. 
The First Casualty from 2005 

The setting being a bit like looking for a needle in a haystick, the London policman of the piece is sent off to France during the First World War to find a murderer in the trenches...good luck, you might think! 

Anyway a thoroughly enjoyable read. I read it in double-quick time it was so good.


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Doyle's spiritualism is fascinating, as is his friend Houdini's campaign against it. 

The First Casualty sounds pretty good, I may read it, thanks for the recommendation Earl!


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh, and the problem with a Calabash pipe is that they were not popular until long after Holmes' time. Paget always depicted a "straight" (real name anyone?) pipe.


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## interestedinclothing (Feb 8, 2007)

Does anybody wear a Deerstalker today?


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

This thread actually reminded me that I had been meaning to order one. It should arrive in December.


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## interestedinclothing (Feb 8, 2007)

Bird's One View said:


> This thread actually reminded me that I had been meaning to order one. It should arrive in December.


Where may I ask will you wear your Deerstalker?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Why, stalking deer naturally, with a martini action single shot in .303


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

A deerstalker should *only* be worn in the country, preferably while hunting, as Kav said. Though I love deerstalkers I prefer cloth-caps; they look better on me.

Holmes did wear those as well. :icon_smile_wink:

-Huzzah-


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## Gradstudent78 (May 7, 2003)

Some shots of Jude Law as Watson and a couple more of downey:
https://justjared.buzznet.com/2008/10/12/dr-watson-jude-law/

Guy Ritchie is looking well dressed.


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## Grayson (Feb 29, 2008)

My only contribution to this excellent discussion is to fill one overlooked area, photos of the previously referenced Grenada TV production and the Jeremy Brett portrayal of Holmes.













































... as good as Downey is, there is no way he'll match Jeremy Brett in my mind. :aportnoy:


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks Grayson the pictures are great.

I hope that Law will not be running about London in suspenders, you can even see his undershirt. :crazy: 

I will not see this movie, especially after comparing the photos Grayson posted & the new ones. Clothing wise, their is no comparison.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Am ducking for cover just after I post the following, but sorry, can't help it:

To all those who feel that Jeremy Brett was and is the definitive Sherlock Holmes, I can only ask:

So you like your Sherlock Holmes as a screaming queen?​


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

Peak and Pine said:


> So you like your Sherlock Holmes as a screaming queen?​


Yep. Just like in the books.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

This is another reason I wear round toed shoes vs duckbills.
You can crush cockroaches when they scurry into a corner.

The theater, movies, Live T.V. in it's day; all require ' A willing suspension of disbelief' and the actors themselves vanish into character.

Jeremy Brett was one fine actor, and I was never aware, nor cared about his sexuality.

Thankyou ever so much for sharing with me.

wipes toe tap clean.


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

Kav raises an good point.

If I may clarify a bit my previous rather flippant post:

I know nothing about Jeremy Brett and furthermore have seen no screen adaptation of Sherlock Holmes to date. I have read all the stories. I think playing Holmes as a more or less closeted gay man is a reasonable way for an actor to approach the role, provided he keep in mind that sexual orientation as we now conceive it was not a fully developed concept at the time.

Holmes may or may not be homosexual but he is certainly queer.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I've had gay friends claim every person of any talent was gay. I've seen every category of misanthrope, introvert, unbalanced genius automaticaly categorised as gay. 

People forget Oscar Wilde was married with children when he had his life destroyed y public scandal over a homosexual relationship.Oscar Wilde was bisexual, or perhaps to ernest.

I retreat to my books, music and the visual arts to escape all this divisive crap. Learned study of possible influences are deeeply interesting- for the student. 

But with Holmes I just want to curl up with my tumbler of laphraiog, the churchwarden and enjoy it.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Kav said:


> You can crush cockroaches when they scurry into a corner.
> 
> Jeremy Brett was one fine actor, and I was never aware, nor cared about his sexuality.
> 
> ...


And I too will clarify my previous post, but only for you Kav, since you twisted it around so you could write your little cock roach ditty:

I know not of Jermy Brett's sexuality nor, like to you, does it matter. I am referring only to his _portrayal_ of Holmes. Even if one has never seen the series, like _Bird's One View,_ you need only to look at the above pictures to get an idea of the take he chose to make when acting the part. It was one of the better BBC comedies of the 90's. ​


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Somebody yells FIRE in a theater, I don't wait to see if it's performance art. The Birdcage has a classic portrayal of a Screaming Queen. Bretts portrayal of Holmes was something more complicated.

When you make blanket statements, I don't have to twist anything. I have a queensized surface to write on.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

With all due respect (but not too much of it) you're making about as much sense now as you did before your disappearance.​


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Peak and Pine said:


> So you like your Sherlock Holmes as a screaming queen?​


I can see exactly what you mean here. The real Sherlock Holmes would have been a much more reserved and sombre character.

Of course, that is probably the stuff which books are made of. And not the stuff which classic popular BBC television best leant itself to.


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Jeremy Brett (personally) was married twice, and cared very deeply about the second one, whose death led to the deterioration of his mental health. 

Let's act like Gentleman and not discuss this anymore.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Peak and Pine said:


> So you like your Sherlock Holmes as a screaming queen?​


Yes, just as he was in the books. And just how he is described in several biographies about Conan Doyle and in the fictional biography of Holmes by the name of a person I can't remember. However, I prefer to call it highly strung and passionate about his work. His sexual inclinations are neither here nor there.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Dr.Watson said:


> Jeremy Brett (personally) was married twice, and cared very deeply about the second one, whose death led to the deterioration of his mental health.
> 
> Let's act like Gentleman and not discuss this anymore.


Well said.


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Although I enjoyed the Brett programs I found his portralal too neurotic and twitchy for my taste. Course, I grew up watching the Rathbone films on Sunday afternoons. I have always felt that, with the same production values as the Brett programs, that Rathbone would have been the definitive Holmes.


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## JohnRov (Sep 3, 2008)

If Downey tries to match Brett, he'll fail. Great performances are never made trying to duplicate what has been done before, they are made by bringing something new to the character. If he does that, and does it well, he has a chance to succeed.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

Zingari said:


> Agree with the Granada production - Jeremy Brett was superb as Holmes. Such a shame he died in middle age. He could have carried the role off for years.


+1 - one of my all-time favorite tv shows....I should look into purchasing the DVD set....


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JohnRov said:


> Great performances are never made trying to duplicate what has been done before, they are made by bringing something new to the character. If he does that, and does it well, he has a chance to succeed.


Which is exactly the reason why Brett succeeded, in playing the part to the word of the descriptions in the books.

No other Holmes film or TV drama prior to Brett showed Holmes taking his narcotics, which is mentioned often in the novels.

No other Holmes film or TV drama prior to Brett showed Holmes often being extrmely short, sharp, loud, and volatile with both Watson and Mrs Hudson, which is mentioned often in the novels.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Holmes is a histrionic aesthete. He loves drama and indulges this dramatic sense with his behaviour and he also has a strong eye for detail, nuance and harmony and notices when balance is amiss. These themes crop up repeatedly in the books and in Jeremy Brett's portrayal. 

These days, some of those traits are sometimes confused with being a "screaming queen", whereas homosexuality itself is really just about sexual preference.


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Holdfast you said it perfectly. I believe there was a post a week or so ago on how dressing nicely can lead people to the same wrong conclusion.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

^ sometimes I think this forum - perhaps not uniquely - becomes a little too concerned about ideas around masculinity and sexuality.

Still, I keep coming back for the clothes.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Holdfast said:


> Holmes is a histrionic aesthete. He loves drama and indulges this dramatic sense with his behaviour and he also has a strong eye for detail, nuance and harmony and notices when balance is amiss. These themes crop up repeatedly in the books and in Jeremy Brett's portrayal.
> 
> These days, some of those traits are sometimes confused with being a "screaming queen", whereas homosexuality itself is really just about sexual preference.


Holdfast, I couldn't have said it better myself. (well, maybe I could have :icon_smile_wink Well said sir, you've hit the proverbial nail on the head!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Holdfast said:


> ^ sometimes I think this forum - perhaps not uniquely - becomes a little too concerned about ideas around masculinity and sexuality.
> 
> Still, I keep coming back for the clothes.


Again, a man after my own heart. Well said.


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## JohnRov (Sep 3, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Which is exactly the reason why Brett succeeded, in playing the part to the word of the descriptions in the books.
> 
> No other Holmes film or TV drama prior to Brett showed Holmes taking his narcotics, which is mentioned often in the novels.
> 
> No other Holmes film or TV drama prior to Brett showed Holmes often being extrmely short, sharp, loud, and volatile with both Watson and Mrs Hudson, which is mentioned often in the novels.


Agreed, which I think leaves Downey no choice but to deviate from that portrayal, which I imagine will irk some purists.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Dr.Watson said:


> Jeremy Brett (personally) was married twice, and cared very deeply about the second one, whose death led to the deterioration of his mental health.
> 
> Let's act like Gentleman and not discuss this anymore.


Perhaps you should read more closely the posts upon which you choose to comment. I am the one who made the _screamning queen_ remark and made it clear that I was not referring to Brett personally, but to the way he chose to _portray _Holmes, which is to say, as a complete and utter nancy.

You, from your name and location, are obviously very caught-up with Sherlock Holmes, the Brett rendition in particular, and my remark may have offended you. My apologies. But it was not ungentlemanly of me. Nor is my telling you not to tell me what to discuss. ​


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Peak and Pine,

I was not suggesting you were not a Gentleman, or that you were attacking Brett personally, I just feared the tread might turn in the direction, and asked _everyone_ to act as Gentleman. don't think he portrayed Homes as in an effeminite way, but that is my opinion, just as you have yours. I think Holmes and the Earl described Brett's interpretation well.

By the way, I am probably no more "caught up" with Holmes than you are with Peaks and Pines. :icon_smile: The location was picked some time after the username, to match, and I started this thread after seeing the Paget illustrations again, and remembering how much I liked them. It did not all occur at once. I enjoy Holmes, but am not _obsessed_, as you might suppose from this thread.

Please, Mr. Pine, lets forget this contoversy happened.

That was exhausting, I am going to bed. :icon_smile_big:

-Huzzah-


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Peak and Pine, the internet is a miserable medium for conveying nuances of thought. Your intent is now clear. PAX


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## Reddington (Nov 15, 2007)

*Patrick Horgan*

Is anyone familiar with the Patrick Horgan readings of the Holmes stories? I've recently found _The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes_ as read by Horgan, but would like to find others. I think he does an outstanding job.

Cheers.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Reddington, I would strongly recommend that you check out the Demonoid torrent forums, for an incredible array of the recorded works of the Holmes canon, and even a full collection of all BBC recordings, in digital circulation. Good luck! :icon_smile:


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Dear Gents

It's so pleasing to see that the earlier musunderstanding has been resolved so elegantly. Well done! :icon_smile:

Now, I tihnk we owe it to the dynasty of Arthur Conan Doyle, and to the timeless brilliance of Sherlock Holmes, that we keep this thread running for as long as possible!

So... the next item on the agenda is...:

Who do you think was the best-dressed of all of Holme's unfortunate villains?

My personal favourite? The Duke of Holdernesse from, 'The Prior School'. It was his stately dress and extremely long red beard that did it for me! :icon_smile_big:


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

Good idea Mr. Pipps, let us keep the Thread going!

As for the best dressed villain, I will go with the "worst man in London," Charles Augustus Milverton. Solely for his claret colored military-style smoking jacket with a velvet collar. Smoking jackets are just cool.


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## going grey (May 22, 2006)

www.sherlock-holmes.org.uk 
Try this !! I used to be a member..endless amusement..attendance at functions as a character (of your choice) from the books requires a good degree of forethought !! Boy that was a long time ago.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Mr. Pipps said:


> Who do you think was the best-dressed of all of Holme's unfortunate villains?


Not a villain, but I always loved the description of the King's attire in Scandal in Bohemia. Very louche.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Holdfast said:


> Not a villain, but I always loved the description of the King's attire in Scandal in Bohemia. Very louche.


Since he was making a poor attempt at a disguise, it really isn't indicative of the way he dresses, but I agree.


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

Among the Jeremy Brett productions, I'm going to vote for Thaddeus Sholto in the Sign of the Four as the worst dressed. Especially after they go out and he's wearing that ridiculous hat with the fur ear-flaps.


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

*The voice of his creator.*

Hope this still works.
Not perhaps the most appropriate forum, hope the mods wont mind, but given the context of this thread and because of the level of affection that still exists for Mr S. Holmes.

https://entertainment.timesonline.c...tainment/books/audio_books/article5040417.ece

This little audio gem last one minute and five seconds during which 'ACD' praises Edgar Allen Poe and of course, refers to Sherlock.
He gives no opinions on actors or preferred films. :icon_smile:

The link is to an item in The Times about audio recordings in The British Library with links to some snippets, click the authors name in blue at the top of the first page.

F.


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## Gradstudent78 (May 7, 2003)

*More Holmes*


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## balder (Jan 23, 2008)

Dr.Watson said:


> The Granada Series was the best. Jeremy Brett did not act as Holmes he was Holmes. They took such care with every little detail, down to the Watson's picture of Gordon on the wall.
> 
> To Kav,
> I think the problem with Rathbones' Deerstalker was that it was worn in town. Holmes, though depicted with such a hat in the original illustrations, only wore it in its natural habitat, the country. He wore a proper hat in town.
> ...


Also hard to think of anybody but Burke/Hardwicke playing Watson,the only time he was portrayed as the intelligent man he was!


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## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

Kav said:


> The Cleveland Bay ( no red leg interbreeding) trots down the dry ice fogged street. He hits his mark and the left wheel goes up the hidden ramp, flipping the Hansom Cab and bursting into flames. Watson approaches, double gripped Weaver stance with his Bulldog .455, periodicaly raising it to the sky for no tactical reason. He kicks the door open and yells 'CLEAR!'


Enter Le Strange in 1929 Bentley with blue flashing light, talking on two way radio and waving pistol around. 'Stop in the name of King George the Fourth!! Holmes, you m_____f_____r, this is my territory! What the hell do you think you're doing?

Holmes: I'm looking for the truth!

Le STrange: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Irene Adler approaches Holmes and breathes seductively 'Sherlock, you saved my life...I'm going to show you how grateful I am'. Cut to interior in front of roaring fire at 221b and soft focus, orange-backlit sex scene'. 'Oh Sherlock, you're the best!'


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

LondonFogey said:


> 'Stop in the name of King George the Fourth!!


eeerr...I don't think so not unless that is a deliberate error. :icon_smile_wink:

George IV (fourth) died in 1830. In 1929 George V (fifth) was on the throne. But I like the style. I can just imagine Le Strange as a hard boiled London copper swearing like a trooper - just like Jack Regan in The Sweeney.:icon_smile_big:


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Zingari said:


> Agree with the Granada production - Jeremy Brett was superb as Holmes. Such a shame he died in middle age. He could have carried the role off for years.


Jeremy Brett was 61 pushing 62. It seems kind of euphemistic to describe that as "middle age." Do you know of many 123-year-old men?

A great pity that the very serviceable word "elderly"--once a fairly precise term to describe those past the middle years of their lives but not yet really old, roughly those from their mid-50s to their mid-60s--was subverted into a kinder, gentler synonym for "old."


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> eeerr...I don't think so not unless that is a deliberate error. :icon_smile_wink:
> 
> George IV (fourth) died in 1830. In 1929 George V (fifth) was on the throne. But I like the style. I can just imagine Le Strange as a hard boiled London copper swearing like a trooper - just like Jack Regan in The Sweeney.:icon_smile_big:


I suspect that Londonfogey was joining in with Kav in mocking the whole film concept, historical errors and all...


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Anthony Jordan said:


> I suspect that Londonfogey was joining in with Kav in mocking the whole film concept, historical errors and all...


Yes, that's what I suspected ,which is why I wrote "unless this is a deliberate error"

And it never ceases to amaze me how poor the continuity and research work is on some films.

Classic errors, like, Britons and Gaels using stirrups.And London policemen swinging truncheons.
The list is endless.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

Hmmm, RE that second set of pics ( thank you Gradstudent ) has anyone else noticed that Mr Ritchie's trousers have belt loops and brace buttons ? Now, not a mortal sin I'd certainly agree, but seeing as he most likely goes the bespoke route, surprising nonetheless. 
Also, are those leather braces that Watson is wearing with, what appears to be, some level of formal wear ?


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> eeerr...I don't think so not unless that is a deliberate error. :icon_smile_wink:
> 
> George IV (fourth) died in 1830. In 1929 George V (fifth) was on the throne. But I like the style. I can just imagine Le Strange as a hard boiled London copper swearing like a trooper - just like Jack Regan in The Sweeney.:icon_smile_big:


I thought the inspector was Le Strade, and LeStrange was a family in the _Harry Potter_ series.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

I used a Barnes & Noble gift card from Christmas to get an imitation-leather-bound copy of the _Complete Works_.

Since it comprises several books, I've been able to resist my normal temptation of reading the entire eleven-hundred-page book in one night.

Last night I read _A Study In Scarlet, The Sign of the Four, _and _the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes_. Tonight I read _Memoirs_ and the first few stories in _Return_.

One thing that bothered me in _Adventures_ was that three of the stories - "A Case of Identity," "The Copper Beeches," and "The Speckled Band," all had the same unusual motive.

Continuity was so bad that I almost wonder if Doyle intended _Sign of the Four_ to be part of the same canon - Watson's bullet wound migrates from his shoulder to his leg, and Holmes goes from finishing his breakfast before Watson awakes to "always being a late riser."


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I for one should like to respectfully request that no further mention is made of the apparent attempt for a new film to be made bearing the name of the esteemed Mr Holmes.

Let's keep to the proper Holmes, shall we? :icon_smile_wink:


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The late writer Edward Abbey was actually suprised when a friend pointed out his character, Jack Burns had appeared in all but one of his novels. From the one eyed wobbley in his first,and rare effort, to GOOD NEWS! Jack appears a little bit older, more beat up and DANGEROUS. You can see him in Kirk Douglas' favourite role LONELY ARE THE BRAVE.
Jack even metamorphised to real life, when, an environmental activist painting his horse different schemes ( appie one action, paint the other) took out a few yellow caterpillars of the steel variety, dark western garb and horses looking like deer invisible to half asleep security guards. 
So literay characters can continue to evolve even after the creator's death. Shakespeare is performed in modern settings with switchblades sans rapiers.
But, there is a point where the essence is lost.
Looking at Downey, I think rehab didn't work.
But then, Holmes used opium.


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

Kav said:


> But then, Holmes used opium.


cocaine.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Yes, a '7% solution', rather than the street-crack variety. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

wheredidyougetthathat said:


> cocaine.


He does use opium in _The Man With The Twisted Lip_, although presumably to fit in with his surroundings while investingating a case.


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*A Brilliant Mind... Indeed!!!*



Mr. Chatterbox said:


> "Excellent!" I cried.
> "Elementary," said he.


I like the movie,

the new extended trailer:


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Grayson said:


> My only contribution to this excellent discussion is to fill one overlooked area, photos of the previously referenced Grenada TV production and the Jeremy Brett portrayal of Holmes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm actually watching the entire run of all nine Grenada series right now. I checked them out from the library. I've been meaning to ask what kind of tie is Holmes/Brett wearing in these photos? In the episodes I've seen so far, it's by far his most commonly-worn tie. I was going to post a screenshot, but this saves me the trouble.

I've also noticed that, from time to time, Watson wears a rather unusual collar. At least, it's unusual to me, for I've never seen anything like it before (same with Holmes' tie, for that matter). It's like a winged collar, except the "wing" is very small, and the points are rounded.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

I also meant to say that I very much like the hats that were selected for Brett to wear. I appreciate that he rarely wears a deerstalker, which he is never explicitly stated as doing so by Conan Doyle. In the Grenada series, in town, Holmes commonly wears a Homburg, but also wears a top hat from time to time.

I like the top hat, in the first photo above. Specifically, I like that its diameter does not swell greatly towards the top; it has a very subtle swell. (No, I would not like it if it went straight up, though.) I also like that the roll of the brim is correspondingly subtle.

But my most favorite of his hats is his Homburg, as seen in the spyglass photo above, and the photo below it.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> I've been meaning to ask what kind of tie is Holmes/Brett wearing in these photos? In the episodes I've seen so far, it's by far his most commonly-worn tie. I was going to post a screenshot, but this saves me the trouble.


I'm still hoping to learn what kind of neckwear Holmes is wearing in the photos. I don't believe I've ever seen anything like it in real life. Although I said "tie" earlier, there doesn't appear to actually be any kind of knot. Anyone know what it is?


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> I'm still hoping to learn what kind of neckwear Holmes is wearing in the photos. I don't believe I've ever seen anything like it in real life. Although I said "tie" earlier, there doesn't appear to actually be any kind of knot. Anyone know what it is?


I always imagined it to be some sort of continental tie. Can't see a pin either though..


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## shandy (Jul 4, 2010)

I am so happy to have found this thread!

The first "proper" book I read was at the age of 7 and it was Hound of the Baskervilles. Holmes and Watson have been, along with Thoreau, my constant companions ever since! 

I grew up close to Dartmoor in Devon, home to the hound of the Baskervilles. One of my favorite things to do each year as a child and adult was to pitch my tent up on the moor and read Hound of the Baskervilles over a weekend. On occasion I would also use one of the pre-historic huts, just as Holmes did!

And yes, I agree, Jeremy Brett for me was the very best portrayal of Holmes ever. It is hard to imagine it being replicated. As for the recent Movie. I just do not see what it had to do with Holmes or Conan Doyles work.. But then again I have never been a fan of Mr Richies "Lad's" movie style!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Seeing as this has come up agian, I'd like to point out the greatest howler in the new film (I think I might have done this before though on another thread). Some of you will have gasped in astonishment, others won't have a clue. I refer of course to the footchase at the end of the film, through the sewers from the Houses of Parliament to Tower Bridge. The camera stays on the runners and so is in real time...however, about 2 minutes after they set off running from Westminster they emerge on the top walkway of Tower Bridge......which means they must have been running at about 150 mph!


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> I always imagined it to be some sort of continental tie. Can't see a pin either though..


Just found a decent close-up of it. Here, it almost seems like it could be a bat-wing bow tie that's completely tucked under the collar for some reason:


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

I know there are those who believe that Holmes and Watson were homosexual partners, pointing at hidden clues and secret meanings, etc. I've never believed that, not that it matters one way or the other. But this scene probably didn't help matters much:



Mind, this is not Holmes suddenly grabbing Watson to stop him or get his attention. The two were walking the entire length of Baker Street like this, just casually strolling along.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

For the Jeremy Brett fans...

Here's three screenshots from an interview clip from a television series called "Daytime Live". I would guess that this interview was done sometime in 1989, because they talk about the Sherlock Holmes play they are currently engaged in, which ran from 1988-1989, and the woman interviewer mentions that Brett has been playing Holmes for five years. The series started in 1984. At this point in time, the first five series had been completed, consisting of _The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes_ and _The Return of Sherlock Holmes_.

Nice red socks...

...and nice earring.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> I know there are those who believe that Holmes and Watson were homosexual partners, pointing at hidden clues and secret meanings, etc. I've never believed that, not that it matters one way or the other. But this scene probably didn't help matters much:
> 
> Mind, this is not Holmes suddenly grabbing Watson to stop him or get his attention. The two were walking the entire length of Baker Street like this, just casually strolling along.


How does Watson's wife fit into that then?


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> How does Watson's wife fit into that then?


In the middle? 

Seriously, though, Watson wasn't married at the time. This story--you _did_ note the title, _The Resident Patient_, in the screenshot's window title, yes?--took place in 1881, not long after Holmes and Watson had met. Watson did not meet his future wife, Mary Morstan, until 1887, during _The Sign of Four_.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> In the middle?
> 
> Seriously, though, Watson wasn't married at the time. This story--you _did_ note the title, _The Resident Patient_, in the screenshot's window title, yes?--took place in 1881, not long after Holmes and Watson had met. Watson did not meet his future wife, Mary Morstan, until 1887, during _The Sign of Four_.


Sorry, of course.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Whatever Doyle's intention regarding Holmes' sexuality, I always thought that Brett played him quite gay. The books suggest it less, in my opinion.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

I haven't really noticed any particularly "quite gay" portrayal from Brett yet, although I'm only half-way through the entire series.

Two things I have noticed about Brett is he has a masterful command of facial expression, particularly in the eyes, and he is also very expressive with his hands. He could have made an excellent magician with the way he flourishes his hands and directs attention here and there. I can use my hands to say "stop" or "keep going", but the way he uses his hands, he says "I beg your pardon but could you please pause for a moment" and "I'm dreadfully sorry for the interruption, pray continue with your delightful tale".


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Obviously, it's a highly-subjective thing. I had read a great deal of Holmes by the time I saw Brett's portrayal the first time, and one of my first reactions was that he was playing it with homosexual notes. (Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's a valid interpretation.) But if you don't get the same impression, that's fine, too.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

CuffDaddy said:


> Whatever Doyle's intention regarding Holmes' sexuality, I always thought that Brett played him quite gay. The books suggest it less, in my opinion.


We covered all this several pages ago.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Several pages ago was also a couple years ago. Just because other people talked about this a couple years ago doesn't mean someone else can't give his opinion on it now.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> Several pages ago was also a couple years ago. Just because other people talked about this a couple years ago doesn't mean someone else can't give his opinion on it now.


No, but people can at least read through a whole thread; or if having done so they want to re-ignite a discususion strand at least reference back to it, rather than making it look as if they haven't read the whole thread. 
My comment to CD wasn't a rebuke, it was a pointer that if he looks back through the thread he'll find more on this topic.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Ah. I didn't think he was trying to re-ignite anything; it seemed to me he was just replying to a comment that I made in #110, as you yourself did. Although I did not specifically refer to earlier conversations on that particular topic, I did have them in mind when I wrote "there are those who believe".


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## Parker Gabriel (Sep 18, 2013)

I too have no stomach for Nigel Bruce having used his flair for comedy to degenerate the character of Dr. John Hamish Watson M.D. from that of a formidable combatant and a brilliant practitioner of medicine into this wretched excuse for a man that we get too often.
Watson was a veteran of the Majesty's Army, and the seeming change of his injury site from his shoulder to his leg could, conceivably, reflect his having been shot in BOTH places, and with TWO Jezails, not just one. That would cause him to bleed out more quickly and threaten his life more severely than has yet been depicted, in addition to giving him both an arthritic shoulder and a pronounced limp after his recovery.

As for William Sherlock Holmes, his skills in disguise were formidable indeed. He was shown to be almost super-human in his abilities to observe, deduce, reason, and surmise. Watson was rather ordinary by comparison; he was thus apt to miss details that Holmes noted.

In "A Scandal In Bohemia," though, Holmes's attire as a Nonconformist clergyman was somewhat laughable. And as Watson himself noted of the attire of Wilhelm Gottsreich Sigismond von Ormstein, Grand Duke of Cassel-Feldstein and hereditary King of Bohemia, "His dress was rich with a richness which, in England, would be looked upon as akin to bad taste."


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Nice thread revival. I once owned, and had nearly memorized, a huge, green volume of "The Complete Sherlock Holmes" and diligently practiced my observational skills when not working on my Spock-like logic and emotional control.


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