# The White Dress Shirt Dilemma - Translucency



## Diversification

The White Dress Shirt Dilemma (WDSD) refers to the issue that many many white dress shirts suffer from, to wit, translucency. Affected white dress shirts pose a number of issues: they show ANY undershirt you're wearing (yes, even heather grey), they take on some of your skin tone which looks strange and they just end up looking cheap. This is a VERY common problem that seems to plague reasonably priced white dress shirts everywhere.


Yesterday I frantically scanned a mall looking for a slim fit white dress shirt that didn't suffer from the WDSD. I checked JCP, Lord & Taylor, Banana Republic, GAP, Old Navy, J Crew, H&M and Kohl's. I've been through Macy's so many times that I didn't even bother. Not a single place had a white dress shirt (slim or otherwise) that was able to avoid the WDSD. Obviously I'm not looking at higher end stuff here, but I don't see why making an acceptable white dress shirt is so hard to do...


Has anyone found white dress shirts that aren't horrible? Can they be found without wandering into the $100+ price range? Please discuss.


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## Guyute82

Herringbone or end-on-end will be less translucent than a lower quality poplin shirt, I believe.


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## upthewazzu

Macy's used to carry a brand called Club Room that I was pretty loyal too a few years back when my job required white dress shirt + tie. I left that job in '08 so I'm not sure if the shirts are still there but after doing a lot of searching like you they were the best bang for the buck.


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## Flanderian

Many oxford cloth shirts will do what you want. One example is Lands End Hyde Park -









It's been a few years since I bought one, but unless Sears has turned them to junk, they might do the trick @ $40 a pop.

Brooks oxfords will also work, but while still under your $100 threshold, will be about double.


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## FLMike

I wear white pinpoints from Brooks Brothers and have never noticed any problem. Buy them on sale.


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## Diversification

It seems that Macy's does still carry Club Room: perhaps I'll swing by again and check them out.

To comment on the herringbone/twill recommendation, I always look for those weaves before anything else. Unfortunately, American manufacturers seem to think broadcloth, pinpoint or whatever they call it is the way to go. Additionally, although some have begun making slimmer shirts, they still aren't "slim" (hence the slim fit shirt threads flourishing on just about every style forum).

Regarding the Oxford's, I'm just a bit hesitant to get THAT rough with the texture and structure. Perhaps I'll check them out anyway. I have seen Oxfords with much cleaner looks, so who knows.

In any case, I appreciate the help. Please keep it coming!


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## Bjorn

White shirts that are not see through at all tend to be a bit hefty. They can be a bit hard to wear successfully with finer (lighter/plainer)worsted suitings, IMO.


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## serene

Translucency could be considered as a problem, however it could be a prized trait in some cases like white linen and silk which tend to be more translucent. One could wear sleeved underwear below the shirt.

However with white cotton, transparency can be avoided by getting a cloth woven with high density of thread. This could be available in oxford or chambray weave at reasonable rates. If however very fine fabric is required, then the density has to be higher and the cloth may be expensive as in giza or pima cotton.


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## poorboy

I just wear a white t shirt underneath.


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## ferreseft

The Paul Fredrick pinpoint oxford shirts that are advertised on the radio for 19.99 each are a great value. They are not translucent, and they do have a trim fit option.


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## Randy Y

I vote for the Brooks Brothers shirts - if you can wear the OTR sizes.


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## Balfour

I agree wholeheartedly that translucent white shirts are unattractive. As has been pointed out, this can be an issue even with high quality shirts and is a product of material more than anything else. I have a Hilditch and Key sea island cotton shirt which suffers from this. The only solution for such shirts is really an undershirt with a crew neck.

I don't much care for white shirts, I have to say. I generally wear pale blues and blue / white stripes. White gets reserved for especially formal occasions or when I know I have an evening commitment.


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## MRR

I've always considered translucency to be a sign of a higher quality shirt because all my early shirts were horrible, thick, poly/cotton non-irons that were completely opaque. Translucent shirts struck me as being made of a higher quality fabric.

I guess that opinion was incorrect, and opaque shirts are better.


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## Balfour

^ I would clarify my post by saying that I would far prefer to wear my H&K + undershirt to a cheap opaque shirt, the former combining comfort, quality and non-translucency!


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## At Law

FLCracka said:


> I wear white pinpoints from Brooks Brothers and have never noticed any problem. Buy them on sale.


Agreed. Their pinpoints are quite thick and are not transparent and hold up very well over time.


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## Diversification

poorboy said:


> I just wear a white t shirt underneath.


Sure this looks fine with a jacket on, but if the white shirt ever becomes your outermost layer, the undershirt showing through looks atrocious.



ferreseft said:


> The Paul Fredrick pinpoint oxford shirts that are advertised on the radio for 19.99 each are a great value. They are not translucent, and they do have a trim fit option.


 I appreciate the advice, but we're talking about dress shirts, not OCBDs.



Randy Y said:


> I vote for the Brooks Brothers shirts - if you can wear the OTR sizes.


I've tried the 346 extra slim fit in my size and it still billows. Does the regular BB label fit any better?


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## Diversification

Sorry for the double post. Has anyone ever considered wearing something like a white Under Armour long sleeve shirt? I know they have ones designed to keep you cool and they fit like a glove in my experience. This might essentially solve the issue since it would be see though, but there wouldn't be any short-sleeve-cutoff point as there is with a regular undershirt.


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## N.O.Joe

I start all of my searches with, "Made in USA." For something like a white dress shirt try Sierra Trading Post. They have so many Gitman shirts available it's hard to choose. And I don't think I've seen a Gitman shirt on their site for more than $60.


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## salgy

Diversification said:


> It seems that Macy's does still carry Club Room: perhaps I'll swing by again and check them out.
> 
> To comment on the herringbone/twill recommendation, I always look for those weaves before anything else.


while you are at Macy's, also look at Tasso Alba... i have a white herringbone from them that would solve your problem... in the $40 range too (if memory serves me...)


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## FLMike

Diversification said:


> I appreciate the advice, but we're talking about dress shirts, not OCBDs.


Pinpoint oxfords ARE dress shirts, not OCBDs. You seem to be confusing the much finer "pinpoint oxford" with the courser/thicker "oxford cloth" of the OCBD.



Diversification said:


> I've tried the 346 extra slim fit in my size and it still billows.


That's hard to imagine. I suggest going back for seconds come suppertime.


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## Balfour

FLCracka said:


> That's hard to imagine. I suggest going back for seconds come suppertime.


:biggrin2:


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## Diversification

FLCracka said:


> Pinpoint oxfords ARE dress shirts, not OCBDs. You seem to be confusing the much finer "pinpoint oxford" with the courser/thicker "oxford cloth" of the OCBD.
> 
> That's hard to imagine. I suggest going back for seconds come suppertime.


Guess I misread his original post, sorry about that. I'll take a look at the shirts he mentioned. Is anyone aware if there's a certain coupon code I need to get the pricing he mentioned?

As for The BB ESF, I'm not sure why this is so surprising. It's been established that TML Fully Fitted shirts are slimmer than BB ESF (check the SF Definitive Slim Fit shirts thread if you don't believe me). The day I tried on a BB ESF I was wearing a TML Fully Fitted for comparison. Sure enough my findings were in line with the aforementioned SF thread.

I'm 6'1", 16.5" neck, 36" sleeve, 42" chest, 35" waist. I'm not even skinny, just slim. BB continues to be notorious for catering to the *ahem* not slim crowd.


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## Monocle

Quote from *diversification*
""""Has anyone ever considered wearing something like a white Under Armour long sleeve shirt? I know they have ones designed to keep you cool and they fit like a glove in my experience.""""

I can think of nothing more uncomfortable. All things considered, while lightweight, the close fit of an Under Armour would reduce the tactile qualities of wearing a nice dress shirt. To wit, it would feel "weird" to me. I personally wear loose fitting undershirts, very long because I cannot suffer the inevitable untucking that occurs during a busy day up and down, moving about, etc etc. And any slim fitting undershirt simply mocks me too much. I was forced to wear long johns during the winter under my dress clothes as a youngster, and I suppose I am still tormented. If you find a shirt which fits your imperative, please update.


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## Twinspeare

*Learn to live with it . . .*

. . . and ENJOY your white shirt! It's the only real formal shirt there is. (When I say "formal shirt" I mean "dress shirt"). As I wrote on here before, I wear white shirts exclusively. It's true that they are somewhat translucent. I ALWAYS wear short-sleeved undershirts and you could theoretically see it when I take off my jacket. Simply learn not to take off your jacket too often, and when you do, well, you are simply sending the message: Look here, I'm a white shirt guy, and we all know that white shirts reveal a little bit of undershirt. So what?

The only thing you should avoid is wearing those horrible ... what are they called - undershirts without sleeves that sort of curve inwards. No idea what they're called, either in German or English. Horrible stuff, that.

Please, please, don't let yourself be discouraged from wearing white shirts because of that! Go on wearing white shirts as real men do!

Btw, I wear H&K shirts. I think they're fine at the sale price.


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## gaseousclay

Diversification said:


> The White Dress Shirt Dilemma (WDSD) refers to the issue that many many white dress shirts suffer from, to wit, translucency. Affected white dress shirts pose a number of issues: they show ANY undershirt you're wearing (yes, even heather grey), they take on some of your skin tone which looks strange and they just end up looking cheap. This is a VERY common problem that seems to plague reasonably priced white dress shirts everywhere.


it's even worse when the person isn't wearing an undershirt and you can see his pepperoni nipples underneath


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## upthewazzu

I'm just wondering if the OP ever found that elusive holy grail of non-translucent white shirts? I have an interview the week of Dec 11th and I'll be needing a new one myself. I think I'm going to get the Paul Fredrick 100's spread collar white shirt but if I can find something at Macy's today I'll get that instead. Unfortunately, my local selection is extremely limited (as in, only Macy's, and a very small Macy's at that) so mail order is probably the way to go.


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## mhdena

poorboy said:


> I just wear a white t shirt underneath.


Simple solution, make mine V neck.


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## Matt S

I wear a white crew neck undershirt with a white shirt. If I'm wearing a fine white shirt it's with a suit and tie, thus the outline of the undershirt isn't seen. And white for the undershirt ensures that my shirt looks as white as possible. If the situation is casual enough to be without a jacket, a heavier white shirt (oxford or twill) or a coloured shirt is a better choice in any case.


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## Wimsey

I haven't had the translucency problem with my white shirts, although, as Matt S notes, white shirts do tend to look whiter with an undershirt underneath.

However, I stopped wearing undershirts a few years ago, mostly because: (1) it's too damn hot; and (2) as I started buying nicer shirts, they were more comfortable and the tee-shirt became less necessary.

And I also tend to only wear a lighter white dress shirt with a suit.


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## cearain

I had the same problem. 

I have a very long waist and my tshirts would constantly come un-tucked under my dress shirt. This made me look fatter than I actually am and lead to my dress shirt coming untucked faster. Plus everyone in my office is always complaining I want the office cooler. (71 degrees is not cold!!) Last thing I need is another shirt. 


A few years ago I saw one of the tailors from Mytailor.com

They had a ton of fabrics to choose from. I bought a really thick cheaper white shirt, a white herring bone and a grey. 

The grey and herring bone held up really well. I still wear the cheaper thick material one but its not as good. The herring bone is my favorite shirt. Its not too heavy or thick but it is not translucent at all. Since I don't see allot of them I was afraid the design might be a bit much for a suit. But it goes great with a suit.

I basically have to buy my shirts custom though. I'm 6 foot 200 with a 19 inch neck. If I want to button my top button on anything but a custom shirt I have to wear a tent. Having a shirt I can button the top button on and having the extra long tails is a real luxury.

I'm actually hoping to get a few more shirts in the next 2 weeks. I will ask the guy what sort of fabric the herringbone was.


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## Shoe City Thinker

upthewazzu said:


> Macy's used to carry a brand called Club Room that I was pretty loyal too a few years back when my job required white dress shirt + tie. I left that job in '08 so I'm not sure if the shirts are still there but after doing a lot of searching like you they were the best bang for the buck.


After the JCP Stafford Executive shirts went downhill, I started buying the Club Room and was pleased with them. However lately it appears that their quality have gone downhill where the material is flimsy and cheap.


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## Tim Correll

Matt S said:


> I wear a white crew neck undershirt with a white shirt. If I'm wearing a fine white shirt it's with a suit and tie, thus the outline of the undershirt isn't seen. And white for the undershirt ensures that my shirt looks as white as possible. If the situation is casual enough to be without a jacket, a heavier white shirt (oxford or twill) or a coloured shirt is a better choice in any case.


I have a custom (MTO) white solid 100% cotton twill (the twill weave is very subtle, BTW) Land's End dress shirt with double French cuffs. It is just as dressy as the dressiest white dress shirts that are not meant to be worn with formal wear (such as tuxedos and morning coats). And, it is completely non-translucent, FWIW.


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## gringodaddy

Diversification said:


> Guess I misread his original post, sorry about that. I'll take a look at the shirts he mentioned. Is anyone aware if there's a certain coupon code I need to get the pricing he mentioned?
> 
> As for The BB ESF, I'm not sure why this is so surprising. It's been established that TML Fully Fitted shirts are slimmer than BB ESF (check the SF Definitive Slim Fit shirts thread if you don't believe me). The day I tried on a BB ESF I was wearing a TML Fully Fitted for comparison. Sure enough my findings were in line with the aforementioned SF thread.
> 
> I'm 6'1", 16.5" neck, 36" sleeve, 42" chest, 35" waist. I'm not even skinny, just slim. BB continues to be notorious for catering to the *ahem* not slim crowd.


I have nearly the same measurements (though I am not slim but broad) and I find this hard to believe unless you like to appear as though you had your clothes painted on.


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## gringodaddy

What about royal Oxford cloth? Nordstrom sells a trim fitting one for $79


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## Diversification

gringodaddy said:


> I have nearly the same measurements (though I am not slim but broad) and I find this hard to believe unless you like to appear as though you had your clothes painted on.


I think I probably mismeasured myself. My chest is closer to 40" and my waist is about 33". I'm thinking your reaction might be caused by the idea that BB ESF dress shirts have the same fit as BB ESF sport shirts; it seems to be pretty well established that the sport shirts are significantly slimmer.

That said, I will admit that I was trying on the BB 346 line, not the mainline. I have trouble believing there is a significant difference in fit, though.


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## Watchman

Charles Tyrwhitt has worked for me. To me, if you can see through a shirt, any shirt, then that denotes an inferior fabric no matter the cost or label. I remember recently seeing a pic of President Obama with a seemingly nice, crisp dress shirt and being able to see through it, so much so that his undershirt was very visible.

I guess this is acceptable, especially in warmer climates and during the summer. It seems like I also have some Paul Fredrick dress shirts that are thick enough to not see through. I know that if it is a textured white shirt...herringbone for example, it definitely seems to help.

Below is a pic of the Presidents shirt, although not the example pic I remember seeing albeit an example nonetheless.

Thanks!


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## Watchman

Here is a little better pic of the President in a white dress shirt that is a bit translucent:


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## L-feld

Watchman said:


> Here is a little better pic of the President in a white dress shirt that is a bit translucent:


I don't think this is as much a problem with the shirt fabric as it is a problem inherent to wearing wife beaters. Switch to crew neck undershirts.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## L-feld

Diversification said:


> I think I probably mismeasured myself. My chest is closer to 40" and my waist is about 33". I'm thinking your reaction might be caused by the idea that BB ESF dress shirts have the same fit as BB ESF sport shirts; it seems to be pretty well established that the sport shirts are significantly slimmer.
> 
> That said, I will admit that I was trying on the BB 346 line, not the mainline. I have trouble believing there is a significant difference in fit, though.


If you are in need of a shirt that is trimmer than BB ESF, you may have betterluck getting advice on TOF. The general consensus here is that anything slimmer than BB ESF looks a bit goofy and lacks functional practicality.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## gringodaddy

Diversification said:


> I think I probably mismeasured myself. My chest is closer to 40" and my waist is about 33". I'm thinking your reaction might be caused by the idea that BB ESF dress shirts have the same fit as BB ESF sport shirts; it seems to be pretty well established that the sport shirts are significantly slimmer.
> 
> That said, I will admit that I was trying on the BB 346 line, not the mainline. I have trouble believing there is a significant difference in fit, though.


That would explain the difference!


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## Matt S

Watchman said:


> Charles Tyrwhitt has worked for me. To me, if you can see through a shirt, any shirt, then that denotes an inferior fabric no matter the cost or label. I remember recently seeing a pic of President Obama with a seemingly nice, crisp dress shirt and being able to see through it, so much so that his undershirt was very visible.


Being translucent doesn't make a shirt inferior by any means. Sea Island cotton, one of the highest and finest grades of cotton, feels like silk but is typically translucent. And never try a voile shirt if you don't like translucent shirts.

Obama's problem is wearing the wrong kind of undershirt. He should wear a crew-neck undershirt, not a vest.


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## Jovan

^ Right on the money, as usual. I'd rather someone see that I have a short sleeved undershirt on when I'm jacketless than have a weird outline showing even with a jacket on.


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## Orsini

Wow! The President wears wife-beaters!


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## ThomasC

L-feld said:


> I don't think this is as much a problem with the shirt fabric as it is a problem inherent to wearing wife beaters. Switch to crew neck undershirts.


Some of us prefer A-shirts rather than a crew neck, which is too binding and constrictive for me. They have been perfectly acceptable for decades and I would rather someone see the outline of my A-shirt instead of chest hair and nipples.


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## Fatman

ThomasC said:


> Some of us prefer A-shirts rather than a crew neck, which is too binding and constrictive for me. They have been perfectly acceptable for decades and I would rather someone see the outline of my A-shirt instead of chest hair and nipples.


I wear both, particularly the sleeveless in summer, but the President of the United States having his shirt see through?


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## L-feld

ThomasC said:


> Some of us prefer A-shirts rather than a crew neck, which is too binding and constrictive for me. They have been perfectly acceptable for decades and I would rather someone see the outline of my A-shirt instead of chest hair and nipples.


I don't know about you, but my chest hair rises above the scoop neck of a wifebeater. That said, I do like to wear them under polo shirts.

But if I suited up, I wear a crew neck. I don't get how that is constrictive, unless your dress shirts are too small.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## Watchman

Matt S said:


> Being translucent doesn't make a shirt inferior by any means. Sea Island cotton, one of the highest and finest grades of cotton, feels like silk but is typically translucent. And never try a voile shirt if you don't like translucent shirts.
> 
> Obama's problem is wearing the wrong kind of undershirt. He should wear a crew-neck undershirt, not a vest.


Yes Sir,
You are right about that now that I think about it. I had the privilege of owning a 200 thread count shirt that was rather pricey and I thought as I was waiting to receive it that it would be thicker than all my others due to the high thread count. However, I was staggered to see that it was so thin that it seemed silky and was very, very comfortable.

The problem is that I had to give the shirt away to my father-in-law because I lost so much weight that I could no longer fit it. So it has been awhile time since I wore that shirt and remember now that it was both very high quality and quite thin all at once. So, I should of thought my first post in this thread through a little better.....:icon_headagainstwal


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## ThomasC

L-feld said:


> I don't know about you, but my chest hair rises above the scoop neck of a wifebeater. That said, I do like to wear them under polo shirts.
> 
> But if I suited up, I wear a crew neck. I don't get how that is constrictive, unless your dress shirts are too small.


I have MTM dress shirts from Brooks Brothers and have them allow a little more room so that they are not snug. It is the added layer of the short sleeves on a crew or v-neck that are uncomfortable to me. They just feel too confining and an A-shirt fits the bill perfectly for me.

We all have different likes and dislikes. That is why there are different styles to choose from.


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