# Wanted: Trad Bartender



## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

To assist in the preparation of martinias-mine never turn out right.


*well the first one anyway.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

This is about as traditional as it gets...

1 ice-cold long-stemmed martini glass (put it in the freezer)
4 oz. Gordon's (gin)
1/4 oz. Martini & Rossi Dry Vermouth (anything less, and you might as well be drinking straight gin)
3 large green olives (stuffed w/pimentos)

Put ingredients in metal shaker with ice, shake it until it's practically too cold to hold onto.
Strain into glass.
Garnish with three large green olives on a pick.
Enjoy! Remember the old saying: "One martini, two martini, three martini...floor." If you make 'em this strong, it might only take two.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

KentW said:


> This is about as traditional as it gets...
> 
> 1 ice-cold long-stemmed martini glass (put it in the freezer)
> 4 oz. Gordon's (gin)
> ...


Gin is an aromatic liquor (just look at all the ingredients in a proper gin, such as Bombay or Beefeaters), therein lies its beauty, its difference from vodka and the very reason it is used in classic martinis. If you get it too cold, it loses all aroma, therefore becoming both aroma- and taste-free and might as well be Everclear. Shaking makes it that cold, which is why any bartender who actually knows his or her stuff will always stir, not shake a true martini.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

rip said:


> Gin is an aromatic liquor (just look at all the ingredients in a proper gin, such as Bombay or Beefeaters), therein lies its beauty, its difference from vodka and the very reason it is used in classic martinis. If you get it too cold, it loses all aroma, therefore becoming both aroma- and taste-free and might as well be Everclear. Shaking makes it that cold, which is why any bartender who actually knows his or her stuff will always stir, not shake a true martini.


I realize the temperature and shaken vs. stirred issues are debated amongst martini fans. That's how I like 'em, though. 

I actually prefer vodka martinis, so perhaps that has something to do with my preference for chilling and shaking the gin versions.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

A.Squire said:


> To assist in the preparation of martinias-mine never turn out right.
> 
> 
> *well the first one anyway.


First, find a place that does not advertise 200 martinis! If you want a truly classic 1920s martini, ask for 4 to 1, gin to vermouth, have it stirred, not shaken (see my other post) and served with either a twist (the original garnish for a martini) or olives.

If you're in NY, try the King Cole Bar at the St. Regis Hotel, the lobby bar at the Algonquin or Bemelmans Bar at the Carlysle. They know how to make a proper martini.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

KentW said:


> I realize the temperature and shaken vs. stirred issues are debated amongst martini fans. That's how I like 'em, though.
> 
> I actually prefer vodka martinis, so perhaps that has something to do with my preference for chilling and shaking the gin versions.


Yes, I would want to kill the taste of a vodka martini, too


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

rip said:


> Yes, I would want to kill the taste of a vodka martini, too


:icon_smile_big:

My friend, you've inspired me to give the ol' stirred martini another chance. Maybe I've been watching too many James Bond movies.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

rip said:


> First, find a place that does not advertise 200 martinis! If you want a truly classic 1920s martini, ask for 4 to 1, gin to vermouth, have it stirred, not shaken (see my other post) and served with either a twist (the original garnish for a martini) or olives.
> 
> If you're in NY, try the King Cole Bar at the St. Regis Hotel, the lobby bar at the Algonquin or Bemelmans Bar at the Carlysle. They know how to make a proper martini.


The King Cole bar is great...try a Red Snapper too. That is a variation on the Bloody Mary. Apparently the bartender from 'Harry's New York Bar' in Paris who invented the Bloody Mary came to New York and worked at the King Cole Bar where he also invented the Red Snapper.

Of course it's $17 which is not so great. But it's an experience.

I always heard Gin was kind of really bad for you so I stick to Vodka Martini's.

Danny


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

A small disagreement
Chill the glasses in the fridge, not the freezer.
Take the cocktail glasses out of the fridge.
Pour vermouth in each cocktail glass.
Pour gin over ice, shake until the mixer gets frosty.
Dump the vermouth out of the glasses.
Pour gin in the glasses.
Two olives in each drink.
Perfect.

H.L. Mencken thought they were as perfect as a sonnet. Stalin thought they were a little "cold on the stomach" but I like that about them.


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

rip said:


> Gin is an aromatic liquor (just look at all the ingredients in a proper gin, such as Bombay or Beefeaters), therein lies its beauty, its difference from vodka and the very reason it is used in classic martinis. If you get it too cold, it loses all aroma, therefore becoming both aroma- and taste-free and might as well be Everclear. Shaking makes it that cold, which is why any bartender who actually knows his or her stuff will always stir, not shake a true martini.


Agreed, martinis should only be stirred, not shaken. Besides, this provides a far more aesthetically pleasing martini than a glass full of clouded liquid.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Last night the hounds cornered a ground hog. After the ensuing battle I was the sole nomination to toss the victim (thankfully just the rodent) over the perimeter fencing. Up for it? you bet--I decided to ride my bicycle. The R_ock Hopper_ has disc brakes and stops on a dime. Too bad wifey wasn't there to snap a shot of the end-over.


**Tonight, I removed the pimentos and stuffed the olives with blue cheese. That was so good I decided to grill some burgers and top them with you-know-what.


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## KCE (Nov 13, 2006)

I keep my gin in the freezer, because I like my martinis clear and ice cold (warm gin is disgusting). Shake some vermouth over ice, strain the vermouth out, pour your gin over the vermouth-coated ice, stir 30 seconds, and pour into your chilled glasses.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

Anyone like martinis on the rocks, as I do? I appreciate that there is a loss of the aromatic aspect when it is so cold, but I find it very satifying this way. 3 olives and a few drops of Sicilia lemon juice, or the real thing, make it just fine. I drink them fast enough that cube meltage is not a problem. How much vermouth? I open the bottle of M and R in the same room as the gin, walk near the glass, and that is enough. Trad or not, I cannot say. Cheers!
Bill:devil:


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## csheehan (Feb 27, 2004)

*Trad Martini*

2 parts gin, 1 part dry vermouth, dash of Orange Bitters. Stir with ice and strain into chilled cocktail glass, garnish with olive. Simple and can't be improved.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

A.Squire said:


> Tonight, I removed the pimentos and stuffed the olives with blue cheese. That was so good I decided to grill some burgers and top them with you-know-what.


Try some of those stuffed olives in a "dirty" (add about 1/2 oz. of olive juice) vodka martini (preferably with a good vodka, like Grey Goose). Definitely not trad, but very tasty.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

A.Squire said:


> **Tonight, I removed the pimentos and stuffed the olives with blue cheese. That was so good I decided to grill some burgers and top them with you-know-what.


The discarded pimentos?

JB


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

One of my greatest pet peeves in life:

The "martini" is a drink that is gin or vodka and dry vermouth, served straight up or on the rocks. Any other primary liquor and any other secondary liquor and the drink ceases to be a martini. I hate that any drink served in a stemmed, angled glass is called a martini. Not the case. 

And while we're on the glass. It's called a cocktail glass. Not a martini glass. 

We all have our own little crusades.

JB


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

A.Squire said:


> **Tonight, I removed the pimentos and stuffed the olives with blue cheese. That was so good I decided to grill some burgers and top them with you-know-what?


Marmotte d'Amerique pate from the previous evenins adventure?

And to think that walkin around the Wal-Mart Friday nite after all-you-can-eat country style catfish with fixins and pitchers of double-sweet tea at the #9 Fish Camp was the hi-lite of the weekend hereabouts. Course next week we got raslin at the armory.


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

KentW said:


> This is about as traditional as it gets...
> 
> 1 ice-cold long-stemmed martini glass (put it in the freezer)
> 4 oz. Gordon's (gin)
> ...


Three olives?! This is olive soup, not a martini... ONE olive is trad, more is pure AmJack... originating in the 90s, when women took to martinis, found they hated them, but liked the shape of the glass, so started making drinks w/ chocolate, poured them in a cocktail glass and called them martinis... By the way, "martini glass" is nouveau and vulgar; it's a cocktail glass...


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

rip said:


> Gin is an aromatic liquor (just look at all the ingredients in a proper gin, such as Bombay or Beefeaters), therein lies its beauty, its difference from vodka and the very reason it is used in classic martinis. If you get it too cold, it loses all aroma, therefore becoming both aroma- and taste-free and might as well be Everclear. Shaking makes it that cold, which is why any bartender who actually knows his or her stuff will always stir, not shake a true martini.


Bombay is a chick's gin, excessively aromatic, all those orange peels and crap, nouveau and vulgar to the core. Beefeaters is a respectable trad gin.


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

KentW said:


> I realize the temperature and shaken vs. stirred issues are debated amongst martini fans. That's how I like 'em, though.
> 
> I actually prefer vodka martinis, so perhaps that has something to do with my preference for chilling and shaking the gin versions.


A "vodka martini" may be a nice drink but is not a martini and is not trad. Vodka comes in the 50s and 60s when people, wanting to attach themselves to the mystique of the martini, found that they didn't like them (as far as mixed drinks go, vodka is the mixer of choice of those who don't really like the taste of alcohol, v. often of women)... so these folks made this other drink and called it a martini... One may as well call a Rob Roy (Scotch and vermouth) a Scotch martini...


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

rip said:


> First, find a place that does not advertise 200 martinis! If you want a truly classic 1920s martini, ask for 4 to 1, gin to vermouth, have it stirred, not shaken (see my other post) and served with either a twist (the original garnish for a martini) or olives.
> 
> If you're in NY, try the King Cole Bar at the St. Regis Hotel, the lobby bar at the Algonquin or Bemelmans Bar at the Carlysle. They know how to make a proper martini.


This is a man who knows what he's talking about...


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

A.Squire said:


> Last night the hounds cornered a ground hog. After the ensuing battle I was the sole nomination to toss the victim (thankfully just the rodent) over the perimeter fencing. Up for it? you bet--I decided to ride my bicycle. The R_ock Hopper_ has disc brakes and stops on a dime. Too bad wifey wasn't there to snap a shot of the end-over.
> 
> 
> **Tonight, I removed the pimentos and stuffed the olives with blue cheese. That was so good I decided to grill some burgers and top them with you-know-what.


Why not try some taco sauce in your martini?


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

csheehan said:


> 2 parts gin, 1 part dry vermouth, dash of Orange Bitters. Stir with ice and strain into chilled cocktail glass, garnish with olive. Simple and can't be improved.


The orange bitters is beyond trad, it's fogey... the original!


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## Good Old Sledge (Jun 13, 2006)

If you don't waste a lot of vermouth, but approach it as eyedoc and I do, you needn't muck about with a lot of worry over shaking and stirring. Swirl a bit of vermouth around in your chilled cocktail glass, pour it out, pour in a bunch of gin, chilled or not, with an olive (or strip of lemon peel but for gawd's sake no onions) and keep drinking them until you like it that way.
It won't take long.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Nathan Detroit said:


> Three olives?! This is olive soup, not a martini... ONE olive is trad, more is *pure AmJack*...By the way, "martini glass" is *nouveau and vulgar*; it's a cocktail glass...


Nice.


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

To each his own, and grown-ups should not be overly-sensitive but IMO, I would rather see a gentle, simply-stated correction or statement of opinion instead of a public insult.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Joe Tradly said:


> One of my greatest pet peeves in life:
> 
> The "martini" is a drink that is gin or vodka and dry vermouth, served straight up or on the rocks. Any other primary liquor and any other secondary liquor and the drink ceases to be a martini. I hate that any drink served in a stemmed, angled glass is called a martini. Not the case.
> 
> ...


Almost totally in agreement with you; however I don't accept that vodka makes a martini, only gin and vermouth, and there is some on-going argument about sweet vs dry vermouth. But as you say, anything else just ain't it, no matter what kind of glass you put it in!


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Good Old Sledge said:


> If you don't waste a lot of vermouth, but approach it as eyedoc and I do, you needn't muck about with a lot of worry over shaking and stirring. Swirl a bit of vermouth around in your chilled cocktail glass, pour it out, pour in a bunch of gin, chilled or not, with an olive (or strip of lemon peel but for gawd's sake no onions) and keep drinking them until you like it that way.
> It won't take long.


An onion is fine, it's just not a martini, it's a gibson.


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## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

At the risk of being seen as a spammer, I have an article on my site about martini's - in the Food and Liquor section.

Martini recipe's are somewhat individual - there is no one recipe which will taste quite right to everyone. Of course, the good side to this is that the only way to get it right is to sample, sample, sample. 

Personally, I don't believe vodka has anyplace in a martini - gin and vermouth only. As far as he shaken vs stirred debate goes, you really only need to shake for 3 to 5 seconds, and in my experience the initial cloudiness dissapears quite quickly. If you were making three or four martinis for a group of people they would be clear before you ever delivered them to your guests.

I agree with sticking with a simple and classic gin.

Now I'm thirsty. Is it wrong to have a martini before heading out to brunch?


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

A.Squire said:


> To assist in the preparation of martinias-mine never turn out right.
> 
> *well the first one anyway.


If Martinis are too tricky, why not switch to Daiquiris?  They're cheap and easy, and JFK liked them.

2 oz cheap white Puerto Rican rum
1 oz fresh-squeezed lime juice
Sugar to taste

Dissolve the sugar in the lime juice. Add rum and ice. Shake hard and long, then strain into a cocktail glass. Rinse and repeat.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

How about an embroidered martini?

Not saying I wouldn't, but I haven't thus far.


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

HistoryDoc said:


> To each his own, and grown-ups should not be overly-sensitive but IMO, I would rather see a gentle, simply-stated correction or statement of opinion instead of a public insult.


Quite right, I apologize...

As to the trad bartender, he makes a martini w/ gin, something like Beefeaters, Seagram's Extra Dry, Gordon, and ONE olive (a twist really goes better w/ the so-called "vodka martini")... the brand of vermouth doesn't much matter... he probably stirs rather than shakes (not a big deal, this one)... uses a cocktail glass rather than a rocks glass, and a trad cocktail glass has a shorter stem and a smaller bowl than the ones you see today... he may even make it "dirty," w/ a dash of olive juice... but it has no ingredients other than gin, vermouth, olive and olive juice. None! Nada! Unthinkable! Nichts! Rien n'est plus vulgaire! Avete capito?!... There I go again, getting worked up... on this subject of even greater importance for the future of our civilization than cuff widths... Sorry...................


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

Oh, yeah, and the "drier" the martini, the less tradly... The craze for driness comes in the decadent period of martini history, the 50s and 60s... Like "vodka martinis," the demand for driness just meant you didn't like martinis and would rather drink straight gin. This was obvious when people began going for 10 to 1, 15 to 1, "just a drop of vermouth," and telling jokes about "just wave the vermouth bottle in the air over the gin," etc... Trad is in the range of 3 to 1 to 5 to 1, I think...


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## cgc (Jan 27, 2007)

Top notch hotels often feature world class bars. You may luck out and find a local equivalent of the Oak Bar.

I posted a martini recipe from Luis Bunuel which I have yet to find bettered:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=67612&page=2

Supposedly the original Martini was mixed by stirring with a teaspoon the ingredients in a highball or pint glass then pouring into the cocktail glass or tumbler. This does make a highly satisfying martini free of the abuses of vigorous theatrical shaking.

Some easy tips to know when to send the martini back include finding a layer of ice or foam on the surface and some sort of fruit or veggie in the cocktail. Garnishes are only there to take up valuable space in the glass that is rightfully the place for more dry martini.


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

For what it's worth, typing "traditional martini" into google produces this result: https://www.webtender.com/db/drink/587


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

You wanna talk trad? Wheres the orange bitters?


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## KCE (Nov 13, 2006)

Nathan Detroit said:


> Oh, yeah, and the "drier" the martini, the less tradly... The craze for driness comes in the decadent period of martini history, the 50s and 60s... Like "vodka martinis," the demand for driness just meant you didn't like martinis and would rather drink straight gin. This was obvious when people began going for 10 to 1, 15 to 1, "just a drop of vermouth," and telling jokes about "just wave the vermouth bottle in the air over the gin," etc... Trad is in the range of 3 to 1 to 5 to 1, I think...


This is true. I have a 1949 book titled "Esquire's Handbook for Hosts", and this book has several martini recipes, ranging from 'very dry' (5 to 1) to 'medium' (2 to 2). They also list a 'sweet martini', which calls for 1 part vermouth, 1 part Tom gin (not sure what that is), and a dash of orange bitters, but this recipe is for 'ladies only' :icon_smile:



cgc said:


> Supposedly the original Martini was mixed by stirring with a teaspoon the ingredients in a highball or pint glass then pouring into the cocktail glass or tumbler.


The Esquire book also says this, calling for martini ingredients to be gently stirred in a tall glass with ice, then strained into a cocktail glass.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Nathan Detroit said:


> There I go again, getting worked up... on this subject of even greater importance for the future of our civilization than cuff widths.


Nonsense..._nothing_ is of greater importance than cuff widths.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

rip said:


> Almost totally in agreement with you; however I don't accept that vodka makes a martini, only gin and vermouth, and there is some on-going argument about sweet vs dry vermouth. But as you say, anything thing else just ain't it, no matter what kind of glass you put it in!


RIP, I'll give it to you. Just thought I'd be flamed off the board if I dared to say vodka didn't belong in a real martini.

JB


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Joe Tradly said:


> RIP, I'll give it to you. Just thought I'd be flamed off the board if I dared to say vodka didn't belong in a real martini.


I wouldn't want to say it to his face. 










Edit: Curiosity got the best of me. As I type this, I'm once again enjoying a more "authentic" martini...4:1 gin and vermouth, _stirred_, with a _single_ olive. Not bad...I may have to do this again.


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## Good Old Sledge (Jun 13, 2006)

Originally posted by rip: An onion is fine, it's just not a martini, it's a gibson.

Thank you. I think I knew that once, but had forgotten.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

KCE said:


> a dash of orange bitters, but this recipe is for 'ladies only' :icon_smile:


Horse-hockey. . .

1949 eh... - obviously a communist plot to sapp our precious bodily fluids!


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

I agree with Nathan Detroit and many of the other posters. While it true that a drink called the "martini" once existed that contained bitters, this definition never received the necessary widespread acceptance to cross the threshold to trad. Indeed, I think calling such a drink a martini today is more exotic than trad, which is not to say that it isn't a wonderful drink. Similarly, a vodkatini, while a perfectly fine drink, is not a martini by trad standards. 

Additionally, trad recipes generally called for 4 or 5 parts gin per one part dry vermouth, though certainly altering that mix to include either more or less vermouth is sufficiently time-honored to be trad -- but only to a point. Gin without vermouth (or olive juice as a substitute for vermouth -- olive juice can be added to or used instead of vermouth) is gin. Period. 

If chilled gin garnished with olives (and the prior posters are correct -- gin and vermouth garnished with an onion is a "gibson") is served without vermouth or olive juice then the drink is called a "Churchill" since that was reportedly the Prime Minister's drink of choice. 

Interestingly, Hemingway reportedly preferred a 50 to 1 (gin to vermouth) mix, naming his drink the "Montgomery" in "honor" of the famous Field Marshall Montgomery who in Hemingway's view would not engage the enemy in battle unless he benefited by 50 to 1 odds.

Finally, I agree that stirred martinis have a greater claim to trad status than shaken, though I think both are now sufficiently time-honored to fairly qualify as trad. As mentioned above, there are sound aesthetic reasons to prefer stirred over shaken, but one pragmatic reason to prefer shaken is that a fairly recent medical study reported that the shaken variety is healthier in that it releases antioxidants. While admittedly health considerations are not germane in the consideration of a drink's trad status, the study is interesting nonetheless.


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> As mentioned above, there are sound aesthetic reasons to prefer stirred over shaken, but one pragmatic reason to prefer shaken is that a fairly recent medical study reported that the shaken variety is healthier in that it releases antioxidants. While admittedly health considerations are not germane in the consideration of a drink's trad status, the study is interesting nonetheless.


Good gosh, so that is where my tax dollars have been spent under the new Democratic majority eh? I seriously doubt that the differences in levels are discernible beyond the finely tuned instruments of a laboratory anyway.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

*Moderator says...Gentlemen please...*

A very serious topic to be sure but please don't drag either political party into this. After all, drinking martinis is one thing both parties can agree upon as long as we don't get too specific.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

CCabot,
It might reassure you to know that I'm pretty sure that the study was conducted at a Canadian university.
Cheers!
Mike


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Joe Tradly said:


> RIP, I'll give it to you. Just thought I'd be flamed off the board if I dared to say vodka didn't belong in a real martini.
> 
> JB


A friend of mine -- an otherwise fine fellow -- insists on ordering vodka straight-up in a cocktail glass and calling it "a martini". I have begun to retaliate by referring to his Benz as "a Chrysler". They bear approximately the same relationship.

EGF


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## GMC (Nov 8, 2006)

*I feel left out!*

I can't add anything at all, but I'll throw down my prefs and ask one question. This post is truly inclusive, which is great: Had no idea so many Martini drinkers still existed.

To me (and my wife) it's got to be gin. I've learned from occasional postings here that you can go downmarket on the gin and still get a good drink.

It makes perfect sense -- and experience shows -- that the stirred version leaves you with more of the taste/aroma of the gin. But I just like the drink cold. So I shake. I also chill the glass. I do this not just by putting in freezer but by adding ice and water (even soda) to the glass before chilling, as it hastens the process.

The fora is absolutely right on the "dry" thing. It's better with a nice, discernible measure of vermouth. Otherwise it's just gin.

But I don't get the thing about the olives. I like several olives, and I usually splash a little olive juice in there. What's wrong with more than one olive? Is the point here something like this: spare = trad, whereas excess = not trad? :icon_smile:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

GMC,
If the reference point of trad is common practice post WWII through the 60s, then I do think that one olive would be uber-trad. I have no idea why multiple olives weren't common until more recently, but I think that's a fact, at least as a general matter. That said, I love olives and depriving myself of the three olive martini out of uber-trad principle would represent a wholly uwarranted act of scrupulosity.
Cheers!


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> GMC,
> If the reference point of trad is common practice post WWII through the 60s, then I do think that one olive would be uber-trad. I have no idea why multiple olives weren't common until more recently, but I think that's a fact, at least as a general matter. That said, I love olives and depriving myself of the three olive martini out of uber-trad principle would represent a wholly uwarranted act of scrupulosity.
> Cheers!


Things evolve over time. All my friends make martinis with three olives. I don't complain as I like olives. When I make them I only put in one olive. It's the way I learned. Should I wish to be uber-trad I would drink wiskey and water like my dad, uncles, and grand-dads. Oh well the link is broken - at least they never thought martinis were unmanly.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

mpcsb,
I hope you didn't take my reference to "uber-trad" as being in any sense pejorative. I certainly didn't mean it that way. I was only intending to convey the fact that the single olive practice would qualify as trad even under the most cautious definition, whereas the multi-olive practice must be acknowleded as being at least a bit of an innovation. Accordingly, a multi-olive martini qualifies as trad under a slightly more generous definition.
Cheers!


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## GMC (Nov 8, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> GMC,
> If the reference point of trad is common practice post WWII through the 60s, then I do think that one olive would be uber-trad. I have no idea why multiple olives weren't common until more recently, but I think that's a fact, at least as a general matter. That said, I love olives and depriving myself of the three olive martini out of uber-trad principle would represent a wholly uwarranted act of scrupulosity.
> Cheers!


Amen, brother!



mpcsb said:


> Things evolve over time. All my friends make martinis with three olives. I don't complain as I like olives. When I make them I only put in one olive. It's the way I learned. Should I wish to be uber-trad I would drink wiskey and water like my dad, uncles, and grand-dads. Oh well the link is broken - at least they never thought martinis were unmanly.


Trad as in ... tradition! Got it.

Let's not even get me started on my scotch drinking!


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

I thought about posting. Then I thought twice. Then, I posted.

There is no Trad way to drink a martini. A Trad will have his martini, provided it actually is one (gin or vodka and vermouth with olive or twist), any damn way he likes. Remember, these people come from a class who rule(d?) the United States and, by extension, the free world. They'll have what they want when they want it. If one likes three olives, fine. If he likes more or less vermouth, his business. The only thing that is uniform about it is that the bartender had bloody well serve it just as ordered.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> The only thing that is uniform about it is that the bartender had bloody well serve it just as ordered.


HEAR HEAR,
Well said Sir.


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> The only thing that is uniform about it is that the bartender had bloody well serve it just as ordered.


 A rare and dying breed I am afraid- just another harrowing indicator of the decline of Western Civilization.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

GMC said:


> The fora is absolutely right on the "dry" thing. It's better with a nice, discernible measure of vermouth. Otherwise it's just gin. :icon_smile:


So, GMC, your point would be........?  Bill


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## charms (Mar 24, 2007)

Nathan Detroit said:


> Oh, yeah, and the "drier" the martini, the less tradly... The craze for driness comes in the decadent period of martini history, the 50s and 60s... Like "vodka martinis," the demand for driness just meant you didn't like martinis and would rather drink straight gin. This was obvious when people began going for 10 to 1, 15 to 1, "just a drop of vermouth," and telling jokes about "just wave the vermouth bottle in the air over the gin," etc... Trad is in the range of 3 to 1 to 5 to 1, I think...


I was once at a bar with a friend who kept ordering martinis and was emphatic about only a "whisper" of vermouth. The barkeep was an older gentleman with a good sense of humor and he finally leaned over the bar and whispered, "Ya' know, it'd be cheaper just to buy a bottle of gin."


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

Nathan Detroit said:


> Three olives?! This is olive soup, not a martini... ONE olive is trad, more is pure AmJack... originating in the 90s, when women took to martinis, ...


I take two olives in my martini, one for me and one to share. I have heard it said that F. Sinatra also had his martinis prepared with two olives for the same reason, but have cannot personally verify that statement.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

The martini assay:


After much experimentation I am convinced that all martinis should be prepared exactly as the second.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Johnny Carson once said:

"Happiness is finding two olives in your martini when you are hungry."


.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

"Dean Martin was the victim of a crime in Beverly Hills...he stuck out his hand to signal a turn and someone drove by and stole the olive out of his martini" 

-- paraphrasing Joey Bishop.


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## Tradfan (Oct 17, 2006)

*The other Trad cocktails*

Since the title of this thread is not limitted to Martinis, but rather mentions only the "trad bartender", it seems fitting to at least pay homage to the other two trade cocktails: (1) the old fashioned, and (2) the manhattan. My favorite recipe for the former is as follows:

- mix 1 teaspoon of sugar with 1 teaspoon of water in an old fashioned glass, stirring virgously until completely disolved.

- add 1 ice cube, then 1.5 - 2 ounces whiskey (my personal choice is JD bourbon).

- add a dash (or so, depending on preference) of agustora bitters.

Viola!

JD


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

This thread has been very entertaining. I didn't realize there were such strong opinions about martinis. I've never really cared for them, but I have enjoyed the four G&Ts I've had tonight.


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

agnash said:


> I take two olives in my martini, one for me and one to share. I have heard it said that F. Sinatra also had his martinis prepared with two olives for the same reason, but have cannot personally verify that statement.


According to Bill Zehme's "The Way You Wear Your Hat," Frank used to give someone his olive, as a sign of special friendship... if you go on repeating this ugly story about the Leader having more than one olive in his cocktail glass... you might wake up to find a horse's head in your bed...


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

Tradfan said:


> Since the title of this thread is not limitted to Martinis, but rather mentions only the "trad bartender", it seems fitting to at least pay homage to the other two trade cocktails: (1) the old fashioned, and (2) the manhattan. My favorite recipe for the former is as follows:
> 
> - mix 1 teaspoon of sugar with 1 teaspoon of water in an old fashioned glass, stirring virgously until completely disolved.
> 
> ...


Very true! I've always said that the martini, Manhattan and Old Fashioned are the "Big Three" of gentlemanly drinking... the Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin... FDR loved martinis, supposedly invented the "dirty martini," and Churchill's mother is credited w/ inventing the Manhattan...


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I've never had a martini! 

I've tried to make a few but they tasted like crap so I must have done it wrong. G&T's for me....


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> I've never had a martini!
> 
> I've tried to make a few but they tasted like crap so I must have done it wrong. G&T's for me....


That's crazy! Quick! Leave now and you can still make it to the wood-paneled hotel bar in whatever city you're in before last call. Tell them to make it a little dirty, it's a good way to slip into a Martini.

JB


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

*Several olives*

Let's get back to this abominable heresy of multiple olives... I've already been scolded for insulting people on this point, but, really, I get so angry I can hardly type... What foul serpent belched this idea into your heads... The story of the degradation from more than one olive in a cocktail glass to two or three... is another sad example of the idiotization of American eating and drinking habits in recent decades, an analogue to the movement from Coke to Cherry Coke to Vanilla Coke, from Italian cuisine (which, truth to tell, very few Americans like at all) to Eyetalian cuisine, where the sauce doesn't flavor the pasta but you have a few strings of pasta in a cream sauce (always a cream sauce!) stew... when the pasta is gone, you still have half an inch of sauce left to drink... the common point is the childish lack of any sense of aptness or proportion... Do we, on this forum, share an unusual sense for this degradation in American dress, but only in dress, so that we are unashamed to admit that we put bleu cheese or piles of vegetables in our mixed drinks? Just asking!


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Nathan Detroit said:


> Let's get back to this abominable heresy of multiple olives... I've already been scolded for insulting people on this point, but, really, I get so angry I can hardly type...
> 
> Do we, on this forum, share an unusual sense for this degradation in American dress, but only in dress, so that we are unashamed to admit that we put bleu cheese or piles of vegetables in our mixed drinks? Just asking!


It's really not that important.

I love bleu cheese with everything.

ic12337:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

I agree, mpcsb. Moreover, three olives are better than one if you like olives, even if it probably makes the drink a tad less trad.

And tradfan,
"- add 1 ice cube, then 1.5 - 2 ounces whiskey (my personal choice is JD bourbon)."
For the record, Jack Daniels is not a bourbon. It is a Tennessee whiskey that undergoes a charcoal filtering or "leeching" process that distinguishes it from bourbon. Thought you might be interested in knowing that bit of admittedly minor triva.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Oh yeah, any guy who says cherry coke and vanilla coke are not trad should have his trad credentials suspended until he bones up on his history.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> Oh yeah, any guy who says cherry coke and vanilla coke are not trad should have his trad credentials suspended until he bones up on his history.


Well they didn't _always_ come in a can or plastic bottle. Soda fountain - what's that?


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## Good Old Sledge (Jun 13, 2006)

Nathan - point taken about multiple olives and the "childish lack" of a sense of proportion. Perhaps one day we'll be able to go to a McBar and order a supersized martini with a side of olives. More, bigger, drier, is not necessarily better.
Also, as noted throughout, it's worth recognizing that there is at least a generation out there for whom "martini" is interchangeable with "cocktail." It is a stench and an abomination, to be sure, but for whatever reason, one word seems to have replaced the other.
And finally (maybe), it seems that in matters of vice we ought to be allowed a bit of latitude. That is, work clothes and social mores should adhere to a strict trad code, but when it comes to wine, women and song, shouldn't we be allowed to express a bit of personal preference, be it 2:1, 5:1, gibson, Churchill, dirty, gimlet, redhead, blonde, dixieland, chamber music, jazz, Ford or Chevy?


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## Tradfan (Oct 17, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> And tradfan,
> "- add 1 ice cube, then 1.5 - 2 ounces whiskey (my personal choice is JD bourbon)."
> For the record, Jack Daniels is not a bourbon. It is a Tennessee whiskey that undergoes a charcoal filtering or "leeching" process that distinguishes it from bourbon. Thought you might be interested in knowing that bit of admittedly minor triva.


Mike, you are completely right and I stand corrected. I actually meant to write JB, as in Jim Beam, but for some reason the letters "JD" seem to stick in my head.

JD


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

"Well they didn't always come in a can or plastic bottle. Soda fountain - what's that?"

Of course, Coke did not always come in a can or bottle either. Bottled coke first outsold fountain coke in the 1920s, and cans have been popular since 1960. Plastic bottles were introduced in the late 70s and are to be avoided, not because they are not trad but because they are so plainly inferior. 

I get my cherry and vanilla coke from the fountains of Waffle House in Norcross, GA. The cans are inferior to fountain, but many purists would say that about regular coke too. Hyper-purists decry the switch (I believe made in the 1970s) from cane and beet suger to corn suger, and swear that they can tell the difference. They may be right, but hyper-puritanism is not trad.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Tradfan,
Jim Beam is a fine and under-rated bourbon, perfect for manhattans and old fashioneds. And though I've never tried it I have a hunch that Jack would make a splendid old fashioned in any case.
Cheers!


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> Of course, Coke did not always come in a can or bottle either. Bottled coke first outsold fountain coke in the 1920s, and cans have been popular since 1960....
> 
> They may be right, but hyper-puritanism is not trad.


Trad passtime for boys in the late 50s early 60s, collecting discarded coke bottles to turn in for money. 2 cents a bottle x 5 bottes = 10 cents = buying a cold bottle of coke.

Hyper-Puritanism - definitely not trad - I agree.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Nathan Detroit said:


> *Let's get back to this abominable heresy of multiple olives... I've already been scolded for insulting people on this point, but, really, I get so angry I can hardly type... What foul serpent belched this idea into your heads...* The story of the degradation from more than one olive in a cocktail glass to two or three... is another sad example of the idiotization of American eating and drinking habits in recent decades, an analogue to the movement from Coke to Cherry Coke to Vanilla Coke, from Italian cuisine (which, truth to tell, very few Americans like at all) to Eyetalian cuisine, where the sauce doesn't flavor the pasta but you have a few strings of pasta in a cream sauce (always a cream sauce!) stew... when the pasta is gone, you still have half an inch of sauce left to drink... the common point is the childish lack of any sense of aptness or proportion... Do we, on this forum, share an unusual sense for this degradation in American dress, but only in dress, so that we are unashamed to admit that we put bleu cheese or piles of vegetables in our mixed drinks? Just asking!


A few too many single-olive martinis last night, eh Nathan? By the way, would the constant use of...multiple periods...when writing be another example of the "idiotization of America"?


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Tradfan said:


> My favorite recipe for the former is as follows:
> 
> - mix 1 teaspoon of sugar with 1 teaspoon of water in an old fashioned glass, stirring virgously until completely disolved.
> 
> ...


Where are the muddled orange slice and maraschino cherry?

Regarding the olive debate, I'm just glad that a lemon twist is an acceptable replacement because I do not like olives, and I like them even less when they are ruining my gin.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Heretics and Libertines, this place is just full of Heretics and Libertines.


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## Tradfan (Oct 17, 2006)

tripreed said:


> Where are the muddled orange slice and maraschino cherry?


An authentically old-fashioned old fashioned has no garnishes.

JD


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

"Trad passtime for boys in the late 50s early 60s, collecting discarded coke bottles to turn in for money. 2 cents a bottle x 5 bottes = 10 cents = buying a cold bottle of coke."

Yes indeed. It was productive and great fun even on the not very trad southside of Chicago, where most kids grew up with parents who would find discarding a bottle worth 2 cents to be a venial sin at the very least. 

Thanks for the pleasant memory.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> A few too many single-olive martinis last night, eh Nathan? By the way, would the constant use *of...multiple periods...when writing* be another example of the "idiotization of America"?


By the way, "multiple periods" is nouveau and vulgar; they're called "ellipses." :icon_smile_big:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

"By the way, 'multiple periods' is nouveau and vulgar; they're called 'ellipses.'" 

Well, it may be vulgar, but I think "nouveau" would be "multiple dots." ;-)


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

Tradfan said:


> Since the title of this thread is not limitted to Martinis, but rather mentions only the "trad bartender", it seems fitting to at least pay homage to the other two trade cocktails: (1) the old fashioned, and (2) the manhattan. My favorite recipe for the former is as follows:
> 
> - mix 1 teaspoon of sugar with 1 teaspoon of water in an old fashioned glass, stirring virgously until completely disolved.
> 
> ...


Many thanks for bringing these two stalwarts and my favorites to everyone's attention.

I've used soda water in lieu of water with great results. Is a teaspoon enough? When I order an OF at the Drake Hotel, they must use more than teaspoon of either water or soda. The glass always contains more than 2ozs of liquid.

We are hosting a dinner party on Saturday and I'll be drinking Manhattan served up. Most bartenders in the middle west serve Manhattans on the rock in an OF or DOF glass. Most of you up East drink then up. Is that correct?

Again, thanks for giving these cocktails their due!

asf


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Agreed, ASF.
In Atlanta (which admittedly is south, not east) most bartenders will assume straight up in a cocktail glass unless requested otherwise, but some will not be presumptuous and ask. Very few assume on the rocks.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

ASF said:


> Many thanks for bringing these two stalwarts and my favorites to everyone's attention.
> 
> I've used soda water in lieu of water with great results. Is a teaspoon enough? When I order an OF at the Drake Hotel, they must use more than teaspoon of either water or soda. The glass always contains more than 2ozs of liquid.
> 
> ...


I prefer my Manhattans on the rocks. This is mainly due to the fact that: 1. Too many restaurants and bars nowadays use the oversized cocktail glasses which I find awkward and unwieldy, and 2. You have a better chance of not getting a dunce bartender who thinks he is supposed to shake a Manhattan. Manhattans are probably my favorite drink, though I only order it at places that I feel will make it correctly, which are few.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

I prefer my manhattans (and my martinis) shaken. They're colder that way. That said, stirred is good too and definitely more trad. I'm a pretty tradly fellow, but I simply cannot view it as a religion. In other words, I do occasionally flout trad orthodoxy -- something I never do with my religious faith.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

*Olives & Spring*


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

*Chicks dig bowties*

Wear 'em, it's true.


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

Squire,
Superb.
HD


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Indeed.
But your martini is missing an olive! ;-)


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

KentW said:


> By the way, "multiple periods" is nouveau and vulgar; they're called "ellipses." :icon_smile_big:


I thought ellipses signified an intentional omission or a trailing off of speech. ND's rant contained neither. I suppose ellipses would be the correct term though, I stand corrected.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> I thought ellipses signified an intentional omission or a trailing off of speech. ND's rant contained neither. I suppose ellipses would be the correct term though, I stand corrected.


My post was completely in jest, playing off Nathan Detroit's earlier response to my use of the term "martini glass."

I had hoped that the "big grin" smiley would leave no doubt. Humor is challenging to convey online, although I try my damndest.  <--- Note the smiley.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Squire...is that _vodka_ in your martini...?!? 

Maybe it's just the light.

By the way...spittle can be difficult to remove from silk. Since she's your youngest, though, you probably already knew that.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

KentW said:


> My post was completely in jest, playing off Nathan Detroit's earlier response to my use of the term "martini glass."
> 
> I had hoped that the "big grin" smiley would leave no doubt. Humor is challenging to convey online, although I try my damndest.  <--- Note the smiley.


I knew you were joking. No hard feelings here. I've been called worse than nouveau and vulgar! :icon_smile_big:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

"I knew you were joking. No hard feelings here. I've been called worse than nouveau and vulgar!"

Sadly, Laxplayers are all too easy targets for unfair accusations.

They are forgiving souls, though, and play a great sport.

Cheers,
Mike Petrik (Duke Law '83)


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> "I knew you were joking. No hard feelings here. I've been called worse than nouveau and vulgar!"
> 
> Sadly, Laxplayers are all too easy targets for unfair accusations.
> 
> ...


There used to be a lacrosse t-shirt that was sold in one of the catalogs that said "And on the 8th day God created beer so that lacrosse players would not rule the Earth." Since they sold this shirt when I was 13 years old, I didn't take much interest. But nowadays, I can see that there really was a lot of wisdom in that saying...


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

tripreed said:


> I prefer my Manhattans on the rocks. This is mainly due to the fact that: 1. Too many restaurants and bars nowadays use the oversized cocktail glasses which I find awkward and unwieldy, and 2. You have a better chance of not getting a dunce bartender who thinks he is supposed to shake a Manhattan. Manhattans are probably my favorite drink, though I only order it at places that I feel will make it correctly, which are few.


I have two smaller steeper walled cocktail glasses that are great for Manhattans when I drink them up.

When making a Manhattan that will be served up, are you supposed to stir them? I've always used a shakers and given the mixture a few firm shakes. I read it mixes the ingredients better. I don't know how relavent this is as I tend to drink them faster when served up. Perhaps not having ice to get in the way and drinking from a properly shaped glass aids this???

asf


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

ASF said:


> I have two smaller steeper walled cocktail glasses that are great for Manhattans when I drink them up.
> 
> When making a Manhattan that will be served up, are you supposed to stir them? I've always used a shakers and given the mixture a few firm shakes. I read it mixes the ingredients better. I don't know how relavent this is as I tend to drink them faster when served up. Perhaps not having ice to get in the way and drinking from a properly shaped glass aids this???
> 
> asf


Well, perhaps my methodology is not correct, but I prefer stirred because I don't like bubbles that are formed in the bourbon. Also, I feel like it gets more watered down, since more ice melts. Those are my reasons, though, as is apparent here, the "rules" for drinks certainly aren't cast in stone.


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## Tradfan (Oct 17, 2006)

*Authentic Old-Fashioned Recipe*



ASF said:


> Many thanks for bringing these two stalwarts and my favorites to everyone's attention.
> 
> I've used soda water in lieu of water with great results. Is a teaspoon enough? When I order an OF at the Drake Hotel, they must use more than teaspoon of either water or soda. The glass always contains more than 2ozs of liquid.
> 
> ...


ASF,

The proper amount of water or soda water is a matter of contention, and strict originalists insist that a true old fashioned has as little water in it as possible. The only purpose of the water or soda water is to disolve the sugar, since sugar will not readily disolve into the whiskey alone. You have to mix it quite a bit (just the water and sugar), for maybe a minute or so, but the result is worth it. Or simple syrup can be used as a substitute, eliminating the need for any water.

The same strict originalists claim that the whole soda water substitution, especially when any significant amount is added, is an abomination that got its start with lazy bartenders. A true old fashioned is nothing more than whiskey or bourbon, sweatened a bit and bittered a bit, so that the two flavors balance each other. You should try it.

JD


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

Tradfan said:


> ASF,
> 
> The proper amount of water or soda water is a matter of contention, and strict originalists insist that a true old fashioned has as little water in it as possible. The only purpose of the water or soda water is to disolve the sugar, since sugar will not readily disolve into the whiskey alone. You have to mix it quite a bit (just the water and sugar), for maybe a minute or so, but the result is worth it. Or simple syrup can be used as a substitute, eliminating the need for any water.
> 
> ...


At home I use just enough water to dissolve the sugar cube. I'm going to try to find some simple syrup and give that a try.

asf


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

ASF said:


> At home I use just enough water to dissolve the sugar cube. I'm going to try to find some simple syrup and give that a try.
> 
> asf


ASF --

You probably know this already, but simple syrup is nothing more than sugar dissolved in water. You can buy it, but it's just as easy to make it yourself. The "recipe", such as it is, can be found here, as well as in any cocktail handbook.

Cheers,

EGF


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

egadfly said:


> ASF --
> 
> You probably know this already, but simple syrup is nothing more than sugar dissolved in water. You can buy it, but it's just as easy to make it yourself. The "recipe", such as it is, can be found here, as well as in any cocktail handbook.
> 
> ...


Process looks easy enough.

Thanks-asf


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

ASF said:


> Process looks easy enough.
> 
> Thanks-asf


I make a batch with steeped mint about once every ten days starting about the first weekend in May. Keeps well in the fridge. Great for sweetening iced tea, but I think you all know what I use it for...

JB


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

*Here's "one" for Nathan*


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## Tradfan (Oct 17, 2006)

*Mind sharing your recipe?*



Joe Tradly said:


> I make a batch with steeped mint about once every ten days starting about the first weekend in May. Keeps well in the fridge. Great for sweetening iced tea, but I think you all know what I use it for...
> 
> JB


JB,

If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd love to hear your recipe for this. I was thinking of making some this summer, for juleps (and mohitos, too, admitedly). I wasn't sure how to steep the mint flavor into it.

JD


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Tradfan said:


> JB,
> 
> If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd love to hear your recipe for this. I was thinking of making some this summer, for juleps (and mohitos, too, admitedly). I wasn't sure how to steep the mint flavor into it.
> 
> JD


For juleps indeed.

I use equal parts sugar and water, usually a cup of each, warm in a pan over medium heat, toss in a handfull of mint leaves (don't even need to remove them from the stems) and let the whole thing simmer for, maybe 10 minutes. Don't overheat. You can pluck out or strain out the mint, and let cool. The mint turns the syrup a bit green.

JB


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

NYT has a martini story today: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/02/dining/02wine.html?ref=dining&pagewanted=all


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

HistoryDoc said:


> NYT has a martini story today: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/02/dining/02wine.html?ref=dining&pagewanted=all


NYT-I wouldn't have thought you read fiction.

*great little article


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Joe Tradly said:


> For juleps indeed.
> 
> I use equal parts sugar and water, usually a cup of each, warm in a pan over medium heat, toss in a handfull of mint leaves (don't even need to remove them from the stems) and let the whole thing simmer for, maybe 10 minutes. Don't overheat. You can pluck out or strain out the mint, and let cool. The mint turns the syrup a bit green.
> 
> JB


I do the same, but I also press the mint leaves with a spoon to impart more flavor to the syrup.


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

Just read the, ah, developments on the thread... Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Joe Tradly said:


> For juleps indeed.
> 
> I use equal parts sugar and water, usually a cup of each, warm in a pan over medium heat, toss in a handfull of mint leaves (don't even need to remove them from the stems) and let the whole thing simmer for, maybe 10 minutes. Don't overheat. You can pluck out or strain out the mint, and let cool. The mint turns the syrup a bit green.
> 
> JB


Joe,

Do what type of sugar do you prefer?


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

plain old american whole grain sugar. When making the syrup, it all dissolves, so using a finer sugar is not necessary.

JB


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Joe Tradly said:


> plain old american whole grain sugar. When making the syrup, it all dissolves, so using a finer sugar is not necessary.
> 
> JB


Excellent. I have been watching the Food network too much.

Thanks


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

^ Minor point: some books (and some bartenders) suggest storing the syrup in a plastic squeeze bottle. I wouldn't recommend this, however, as the syrup can pick up "off" flavors from the plastic. Even some "food grade" plastics will do this. A glass bottle is better, especially one fitted with a pour spout. A small but exquisite crystal decanter would do nicely as well.

EGF


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Thanks for the tip. I am trying to keep this as clean as possible.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

egadfly said:


> ^ Minor point: some books (and some bartenders) suggest storing the syrup in a plastic squeeze bottle. I wouldn't recommend this, however, as the syrup can pick up "off" flavors from the plastic. Even some "food grade" plastics will do this. A glass bottle is better, especially one fitted with a pour spout. A small but exquisite crystal decanter would do nicely as well.
> 
> EGF


Indeed. I find the "plastic squeeze bottle" to be terribly inelegant. Mine is a very small glass pitcher that lives in the fridge with plastic wrap pulled tightly over the top. Ready to go at a moment's notice.

JB


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## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

*Vermouth and Gin and Ice, oh my!*

Hello Gents,

I apologize for my first post being on this off-topic, but it is dear to my heart.

Vya Vermouth. Tasting Vermouths does not make the weekend top-ten list of anyone I know, but do try to find a bottle of Vya. Supposedly concocted in a more "traditional" (sorry) manner it is smoother to my tastes and allows the older recipes of equal, or nearly equal, parts of Gin and Vermouth to be tried again and enjoyed. I am presently sampling a 3:2 (Gin:Vermouth) mixture with two dashes of Oranger bitters that I favor over an equal 2:2 mixture (also with the bitters).

I believe that the brand of Vermouth does make a difference.

I am using a very non-traditional Gin - Hendricks, but I find it to my taste. Tanquery 10 and Bombay Saphire are also fine choices.

In a Dilffords guide I did read that the reason for having the ingredients at room temp and shaking or stiring over ice is that part of the recipe is to dilute the mixture with water from the melting ice. Therefore freezing the ingredients will give you a different experience (but then again, not unpleasant.)

I prefer to shake, let stand for a moment and strain.

It works for me and my guests.

I suppose my main point was that not all Vermouth is created the same. A $20 bottle of Vya vs. a $4 bottle of XXX? Worth looking into at least.


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## BeauJest (May 19, 2007)

eyedoc2180 said:


> Anyone like martinis on the rocks, as I do? I appreciate that there is a loss of the aromatic aspect when it is so cold, but I find it very satifying this way. 3 olives and a few drops of Sicilia lemon juice, or the real thing, make it just fine. I drink them fast enough that cube meltage is not a problem. How much vermouth? I open the bottle of M and R in the same room as the gin, walk near the glass, and that is enough. Trad or not, I cannot say. Cheers!
> Bill:devil:


Draining the brine from a bottle of olives and refilling with your vermouth of choice is a "different" way fo dealing the the gin/vermouth conundrum. Works for me...on the rocks of course. Cheers back at you.


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