# What will GWB do after he's out of office?



## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

Any rumors, ideas, speculation? I hope he goes back into baseball.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I for one, really do not care, with a couple of exceptions.

If Laura becomes a Senator, and he is out making millions from foriegn companies lobbying for something Laura is making political hay fighting the current POTUS on, I might raise an eyebrow.

If the country and the current POTUS is having a rough time with world relations and he goes out on multiple occasions and slimes the current POTUS, I might raise an eyebrow.

If he has a friend front over a million for a new house he cannot finance, I might raise an eyebrow.

I pretty much think the role of the ex-POTUS is to keep his/her mouth shut and gracefully fade off into the sunset as much as possible and try not to bring any disgrace upon the office.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

cenelson43,

Why? His primary success in baseball was building a new stadium and selling the team for signifigantly more than his investment group paid for it - nothing wrong in that but it hardly makes him a baseball genius. I think GWB will find that there will be little use for him in retirement. Perhaps he could champion the fight against AIDS bc that is one of the few areas where his record has been truly sterling. Otherwise he will be like Ford, without the public respect.

Karl


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

*baseball*

Though he was only an owner for a short period of time, he was acknowledged across the board as an extremely talented one in the way of human relations and getting things done for the Rangers.

Even Bobby Valentine loved him when he was being fired by him.

If you get a chance, look up David Brooks' _Weekly Standard_ article about his stint with the Rangers. It's a fantastic read and shows just how truly genius he is in those roles.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

cenelson43,

During the Bush tenure (1989-1998, though he left active management when he first ran for governor in 1994) the Rangers won exactly 1 playoff game and baseball had to cancel the remainder of the 1994 season, while seeing attendance decline and the sport lose market share to football and basketball and had a huge problem with steroids that still hasn't been fully addressed.

If this is the Bush "genius" you talk about, then no thanks.

Karl


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

cenelson43 said:


> Any rumors, ideas, speculation? I hope he goes back into baseball.


GWB will do what he is capable of, which is ...............


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I doubt he would be successful at anything. Maybe he could close himself up in a room and stay away from the rest of us.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I think the more important question is:

What will Paris Hilton do after she has served her time? :icon_smile_big: 

(The answer of course is more "who" she will do).


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

He will be in the employ of the Mexican government as a consultant and lobbyist.


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

I don't think he's responsible for baseball in general's falling attendance or its steroid problem. 

If you read the article in the WS, it talks about how when baseball was confronted with the problem of whether to ouster commissioner Faye Vincent, Bush was in the small minority of owners who actively campaigned around the US to keep him in place...which would've very likely kept baseball from going on strike.

Bush wasn't in control of which players came and went, but he was in control of soliciting potential season ticket holders and lots of other day-to-day business operations for the Rangers, who themselves did quite well with attendance and revenues while he was there.


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

Well, Jesse Ventura was named a fellow at Harvard, so there's always academia.

I wonder if he still wants the baseball commissioner job. What if he and Condi head MLB and the NFL respectively?


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

I guess he will go happily back to Texas and live a life of comfort, as ex-Presidents should do. Following his dad's lead would be the way to go if he decides to be an active public servant.

I'm sure he could do just about anything and do it damn well, but he doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. I think he's ready for a little R&R.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

cenelson43,

You hardly do the reputation of President Bush any favors when you point out that he excelled in getting season ticket holders to renew their ticket packages and that this might be a future role for him again.

I have to say, I admire yor pluck bc you might be the only Bush apologist left and undoubtedly you are the only one in Rhode Island.

Karl


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm one of probably only a few in RI. I converted all my roomates too :icon_smile_wink: .

I think most of the state prefers weaklings like Lincoln Chaffee and losers like Smash Kennedy.

Anyways, I was just pointing out that his duties with the Rangers were more business and human relations oriented, as he's obviously no baseball scout dealing in day-to-day player operations.

Packing the stadium, which he did well, and in turn raising lots of revenue, was only one of his jobs. This goes to show that while, as you point out, the MLB had sagging attendance records, he succeeded when others were not able to.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

The need for Secret Service protection that GWB and Dick are going to need will probably keep them from doing very much. I guess they'll stay at home and count their money. Maybe shop on ebay. The harassment they will receive if they ever come into contact with normal people is hard to imagine. Protecting them will be a line item in the budget. They should definitely steer clear of war widows.


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

Who knows Karl, maybe he will move next door to you :icon_smile_wink:


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

cenelson43,

I don't hate the guy! And if you look at my avatar and see the general trend in my posts you will see that I am pretty right of center but I must admit that I am terribly disappointed in his administration. But if President Bush moves to me I wil be sure to get FrankDC his autograph.

Karl


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

Oh, I know you don't hate him. Your avatar clued me in to seeing that you were one of the good guys from the get go. 

I meant the joke about moving next door to you in a different context than I would've meant it for Frank, who should rename himself FrankVC.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Would he get an offer to star in a film?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Howard,

Maybe you could get him a job at Pathmark, otherwise he might resort to trolling internet message boards.

Karl


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> Howard,
> 
> Maybe you could get him a job at Pathmark, otherwise he might resort to trolling internet message boards.
> 
> Karl


He could take over The manager's part.


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## super k (Feb 12, 2004)

or spend his days posting at Ask Andy...


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

*The correct answer is:*

:icon_smile_wink:

1. Speak, mostly at friendly Republican and corporate events.
2. Work on getting his Presidential Library up and running.
3. Spend lots of time in Crawford.
4. Buy a second house in Dallas (Highland Park) and get moved in there.
5. Start writing a book.
6. Try to stay generally below the radar for a few years (a la Richard Nixon)
7. Raise money for the GOP
8. Campaign in certain select races for congressional and other candidates.
9. Do special projects, if requested, by the new President.

i.e. The same thing that other ex-Presidents do.

The difference is I don't expect him to be as tasteless and crass in his ex-Presidency as Jimma Carter has become. Oddly, Clinton and GHWB are much better role models. That is, other than a couple of Clinton missteps where he criticized Bush internationally...that wasn't good. I wouldn't expect that Bush will drop to that level.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

My guess is, like father like son: GWB will constantly wrestle with his conscience, spend all the money he made for his oil family and friends, and follow the Clintons around in a futile attempt to make himself look moral.


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

cenelson43 said:


> I'm sure he could do just about anything and do it damn well


I guess that statement doesn't include, "Being POTUS"


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I think W is looking to forward to being able to be an independent agent and do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants, without having to worry about forming a consensus!

oh ... wait ... nevermind


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

rnoldh said:


> GWB will do what he is capable of, which is ...............


screw up whatever he puts his hands on....


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## burnedandfrozen (Mar 11, 2004)

The first thing he should do is clean off his nose. I've never seen a president do such a shamless kiss up job as GW Bush did to former Mexican Prez Vicente Fox.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

super k said:


> or spend his days posting at Ask Andy...


We'll never see him on here.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't know. Does he have ants in his pants?

I hope what he does is out of the public light.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

guitone said:


> screw up whatever he puts his hands on....


especially like choking on food.


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

Maybe if his knees get better, he will continue dominating the long distance running scene. He's doing just fine as a mountain biker though, as all accounts show that he is at quite an advanced level of riding, even despite a few spills.

I'm sure whatever he does, he'll do it well. I doubt he'd bother writing a book like other attention seeking ex-presidents. But then again, he doesn't have to because he hasn't incurred massive legal fees like some others we know.


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

GWB has just travelled to Albania.

News reports are saying that he is getting a fantastic welcome in Albania. He is the first POTUS to visit Albania.

Albania is naming streets after him, and mothers are naming their babies after him. This is true. Reports are that this is the warmest welcome of his Presidency.

Perhaps he could move to Albania after his Presidency. It would be a very wise move.

Here's a report of his Albanian trip:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007260883,00.htmlhttps://https://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007260883,00.html


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

He belongs in the United States, as most foreign countries do not deserve his presence.


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

cenelson43 said:


> He belongs in the United States, as most foreign countries do not deserve his presence.


No, we are a great Christian nation!

We must share him with the world.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

I don't know, but I see him owning a baseball team. =)


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

cenelson43 said:


> He belongs in the United States, as most foreign countries do not deserve his presence.


Why do I get the feeling people that are into film noir are chuckling? Buffs you might even call them.


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

rnoldh said:


> No, we are a great Christian nation!
> 
> We must share him with the world.


Maybe he'll be claimed by the village in Texas we've been reading about on bumper stickers.

-can't wait


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

cenelson43 said:


> He belongs in the United States, as most foreign countries do not deserve his presence.


For once, that's a post I can wholeheartedly endorse. By all means, please, keep him!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Trenditional said:


> I don't know, but I see him owning a baseball team. =)


Bush's baseball?


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

That's my hope is that he'll get involved in baseball, as he was well cut out for it last time. 

Who would want to leave the U.S. anyways given that it is the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world? I won't blame him if he doesn't want to spend time in sub-par economies...though I'm sure France's is soon to be on the rise!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

cenelson43 said:


> That's my hope is that he'll get involved in baseball, as he was well cut out for it last time.
> 
> Who would want to leave the U.S. anyways given that it is the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world? I won't blame him if he doesn't want to spend time in sub-par economies...though I'm sure France's is soon to be on the rise!


He could take over the position of George Steinbrenner.


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

now THAT would be awesome!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

https://www.boston.com/news/globe/l...3/bush_cartoon_humor_is_too_lil_and_too_late/

Coming soon to Comedy Central.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

I think he should move to Albania and maybe even run for president there. They love him and have a long history of having their civil liberties taken away from them, so he would feel right at home there. Actually, I would hope he would step down as POTUS and move right away, say, next week?


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

ksinc said:


> I think W is looking to forward to being able to be an independent agent and do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants, without having to worry about forming a consensus!
> 
> oh ... wait ... nevermind


I think he's looking forward to not having reports and protestor camped out in front of his ranch, or maybe he just wants to be able to handle loiterers "Texas style." =)


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

Trenditional said:


> I think he's looking forward to not having reports and protestor camped out in front of his ranch, or maybe he just wants to be able to handle loiterers "Texas style." =)


Too bad Cindy Sheehan quit her day job protesting. I'd love to see her dealt with.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rip,



rip said:


> I think he should move to Albania and maybe even run for president there. They love him and have a long history of having their civil liberties taken away from them, so he would feel right at home there. Actually, I would hope he would step down as POTUS and move right away, say, next week?


First you predict that President Bush will suspend all civil rights and launch a White House coup in October of 2008 and now you compare the Bush administration to Albania under Enver Hoxha - just one question, are you ignorant of Albanian history or just stupid? A combination of both maybe? Again stick to clothing and your Porsche bc once again you demonstrate that more complex issues are beyond your comprehension.

Karl


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

cenelson43 said:


> Too bad Cindy Sheehan quit her day job protesting. I'd love to see her dealt with.


"Dealt with"?

That has a certain chilling tone.

How do you propose that someone whose political views you disagree with should be dealt with, and who should do it?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

cenelson43,



cenelson43 said:


> though I'm sure France's is soon to be on the rise!


France does indeed seem to be on the rise. Sarkozy has appointed an impressive cabinet that so far is saying important things about Darfur and human rights - far more so than anything coming out of the White House these days. France also seems serious about embarking on economic reforms, something that is anathema to the Bush administration and its reckless spending.

I am not exactly a French apologist but France under Sarkozy seems a bit more dynamic than the Bush administration does.

Karl


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Jack,

Just a point of information - were you concerned with how Saddam dealt with his politcal opponents, and if so how did that concern manifest itself?

Karl


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

cenelson43 said:


> Too bad Cindy Sheehan quit her day job protesting. I'd love to see her dealt with.


In honor of her son, I'm glad to see she stopped. No one wants to have to bury their child, but don't disgrace his memory by using him as a platform. He wasn't drafted, he had enlisted and if going to war wasn't what he wanted to do he shouldn't have signed on the dotted line.


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> "Dealt with"?
> 
> That has a certain chilling tone.
> 
> How do you propose that someone whose political views you disagree with should be dealt with, and who should do it?


I propose Sheehan be chased off the Crawford Ranch with a shotgun (unloaded of course for Jack's delicate sensitivities).


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I'm not aware that she was ever on the premises, are you?

And I'll start calling Bush's vacation home a ranch as soon as he starts herding cattle there.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> And I'll start calling Bush's vacation home a ranch as soon as he starts herding cattle there.


Reminds me of the media tactic of calling a farm a "compound" whenever there is someone right of center with one or more guns living there.


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

I guess he better have Barney sneak up from behind her on that dirt road where she stages these protests and scare her _onto_ the property first....then he can have his fun with the shotgun! Maybe even a lasso...but that would entail her remaining on the property, which nobody in their right mind would want.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Rip,
> 
> First you predict that President Bush will suspend all civil rights and launch a White House coup in October of 2008 and now you compare the Bush administration to Albania under Enver Hoxha - just one question, are you ignorant of Albanian history or just stupid? A combination of both maybe? Again stick to clothing and your Porsche bc once again you demonstrate that more complex issues are beyond your comprehension.
> 
> Karl


Your response once again shows your remarkable inability to deal with the issue at hand, leading you to resort, yet again, to another ad hominum attack.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> now you compare the Bush administration to Albania under Enver Hoxha


Impressive mischaracterization of a post if I ever read one.



Karl89 said:


> Sarkozy has appointed an impressive cabinet that so far is saying important things about Darfur and human rights


That's one single man here you are talking about. I liked him before he chose to betray himself, but I don't think he will be allowed to achieve much.



> France also seems serious about embarking on economic reforms, something that is anathema to the Bush administration and its reckless spending.


Unless you restrict the word "reform" to exclude left-inspired reforms, our last years have been pretty productive. The last socialist government (1997-2002) was nothing if not a radical reformer (35-hour-week, to take but one example, a huge change). It is true that the 2002-2007 conservative government was rather more sedate.

The new conservative government is poised to be a little more dynamic than its immediate predecessor. Unfortunately, I am personally convinced the reforms (right-inspired ones this time) they intend to pursue are wrong for the country, but they seem indeed to want to change many things.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rip,

The issue is very simple. From your statement one has to conclude you know absolutely nothing about Albanian history and the horrors that Hoxha inflicted upon the country or that you lack the ability to distinguish the differences between a Stalinist dictatorship and a republican form of self government.

We won't even mention your condescending attitude that implies that Albanians desire political repression. Time and time again you demonstrate a woeful ignorance about the world around you and post the most ridiculous things, whether it be your mockery of religion, prediction of a Bush coup or comparing Albania under Hoxha to the Bush administration. Important issues are beyond your grasp, so its best you stick to more trivial matters.

Karl


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Étienne,

I also think the Justice minister was an inspired choice. But I can't win with you, can I? I get into trouble for criticizing France and I get into trouble for defending France! Mon dieu!

But in the original spirit of this thread, what will Chirac do in retirement? He probably will have a bit longer than Mitterand did and won't have to order his meal of ortolans (if the story about one of Mitterand's last meals is to be believed) just yet.

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Étienne said:


> Unless you restrict the word "reform" to exclude left-inspired reforms, our last years have been pretty productive. The last socialist government (1997-2002) was nothing if not a radical reformer (35-hour-week, to take but one example, a huge change).


I guess the term "reform" is one of those terms that is dependant on one's world view. For me, the 35 hour work week would be considered anything but a "reform". "Retirement" might be one term I would use for it 



Étienne said:


> The new conservative government is poised to be a little more dynamic than its immediate predecessor. Unfortunately, I am personally convinced the reforms (right-inspired ones this time) they intend to pursue are wrong for the country, but they seem indeed to want to change many things.


Could you list some of the proposed reforms and specifically why you think that are wrong and what the ill effect will be?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

"At some point in time, sooner rather than later, you've got to say: Enough's enough - Kosovo is independent," Bush said.

Responding to a reporter's question in Rome on Saturday, Bush had said a deadline should be set for a U.N. resolution on Kosovo's independence. "In terms of the deadline, there needs to be one," he said. "This needs to come - this needs to happen."

Asked Sunday about when he would like that deadline set, Bush seemed flummoxed. "I don't think I called for a deadline," he said. Told that he had, Bush responded, "I did? What exactly did I say? I said, `deadline'? OK, yes, then I meant what I said."

He then concluded: "The question is whether or not there is going to be endless dialogue on a subject that we have made up our mind about. We believe Kosovo ought to be independent."

https://www.mercurynews.com/politics/ci_6112235


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> "At some point in time, sooner rather than later, you've got to say: Enough's enough - Kosovo is independent," Bush said.
> 
> Responding to a reporter's question in Rome on Saturday, Bush had said a deadline should be set for a U.N. resolution on Kosovo's independence. "In terms of the deadline, there needs to be one," he said. "This needs to come - this needs to happen."
> 
> ...


So this tells us what about his plans for retirement?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> So this tells us what about his plans for retirement?


Lots of alcohol and Xanax.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,



FrankDC said:


> Lots of alcohol and Xanax.


Sounds like the best way to deal with a Francis post.

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Lots of alcohol and Xanax.


Spoken like the voice of experience....

Seriously, was the post just a random attack or did it have something to do with the OP or the thread evolution? If it was just a random Bush Bash, it's fine to just say so.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Thread drift. Someone mentioned Albania.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Thread drift. Someone mentioned Albania.


Fair enough.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> But I can't win with you, can I?


Unfortunately, Mrs Dati has about nothing going for her except the fact she is of Arabic descent.

By the way, why do you talk of winning or trouble? Aren't we allowed to have a rational disagreement? I just happen to disagree with you on this, and told why, that's all.



> what will Chirac do in retirement? He probably will have a bit longer than Mitterand did and won't have to order his meal of ortolans (if the story about one of Mitterand's last meals is to be believed) just yet.


Right now, I guess he'll focus on avoiding the few trials he hasn't been able to avoid yet. Rumour has it that Sarkozy promised to find a non-obvious way to amesty his deeds.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I guess the term "reform" is one of those terms that is dependant on one's world view.


Well, "reform" means a big change, with an overtone (stronger in English than in French) that you are changing what is bad to improve it. Then I guess it's logical that people use the term only for what they believe is right.



> Could you list some of the proposed reforms and specifically why you think that are wrong and what the ill effect will be?


His tax reform, to start with. Basically, he wants to decrease the income tax, the only progressive tax in our system and one that is already very low in France compared to other OECD countries (including the USA), and trade that with increasing the added-value tax, a very unfair (if efficient) tax. That's not a real "tax cut", he is basically shifting the same weight from the poor to the rich, something I don't really think is a good course of action. I also mourn the much-needed reform of our archaic and complex system of local taxes, which was in Mrs Royal's program.
(I admit I am biased, as an economist, tax reform is often the first thing I look)

I could also mention that, contrary to his two main challengers, he wants nothing changed in our institutional system, which I personally find pretty faulty in many areas.

Another point comes to mind: he has repeatedly asked for an affirmative action system in France. That's really not the good way to solve the various social problems of the most recent immigrants.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Étienne,

Relax! I am kidding, after all I don't expect you to start defending or agreeing with a center-right French government!

So Chirac won't become an elder statesman like Giscard d'Estaing?

And totally unrelated, but considering this thread drift who cares, but are you going to the Paris air show next week? Supposedly American is going to order 100 787s.

Karl


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> So Chirac won't become an elder statesman like Giscard d'Estaing?


Eventually he might, but he has more pressing matters to deal with right now.



> And totally unrelated, but considering this thread drift who cares, but are you going to the Paris air show next week? Supposedly American is going to order 100 787s.


My girlfriend works for the aerospace industry, so I will indeed be there. I wonder if that first export contract for the Rafale (Morocco is buying a few), supposed to be almost finalized, will be announced there.

Since the Russians have recently shocked the world by changing their mind and saying they plan to build air-carriers soon, I wonder if I might be able to pick any news on what type of planes they plan on putting on those.

I don't suppose the various American projects (F22, F35) have any sort of flying prototype yet?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Étienne,

I would be interested with what is happening with the Sukhoi RRJ, especially now since Boeing has secured an Aeroflot order for 22 787s. The Russians, with Boeing's help, could really compete on price against Bomarbier's CRJ and Embraer's E-Series (btw have you been on the E-70 yet? Really nice and I think Air France just ordered a bunch.)

Does the Rafale have any other possible orders to announce? I know the Czechs have put out a tender and the rumor was that the Hungarians would as well. 

And I do hope Airbus has some big orders to announce - it would be nice to see a non-Middle East carrier order an A380 or A350, bc Airbus needs a more diverse customer base for its product and for the resale value of its products.

Anyway, give us a report from the show next week.

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Étienne said:


> His tax reform, to start with. Basically, he wants to decrease the income tax, the only progressive tax in our system and one that is already very low in France compared to other OECD countries (including the USA), and trade that with increasing the added-value tax, a very unfair (if efficient) tax. That's not a real "tax cut", he is basically shifting the same weight from the poor to the rich, something I don't really think is a good course of action.


Maybe it is the language barrier here, but I am not sure it's you mean to bemoan the loss of a "progressive" tax and then tell me the weight of the VAT is being shifted to the rich (as I cannot imagine you minding if the rich get soaked). I also, while not an economist, was always led to believe taxes like VATs were considered "regressive" as they hit the poor disproportionally? Maybe you can clarify.

I tend to like VATs vs. income tax, as it would just stimulate me to save more money vs. spending it. I do not like both a VAT and an income tax though, as it seems they always total more than each would in isolation from the other.



Étienne said:


> I also mourn the much-needed reform of our archaic and complex system of local taxes, which was in Mrs Royal's program.
> (I admit I am biased, as an economist, tax reform is often the first thing I look)


I am not familiar with this system of taxes, but I would always be for simpler taxation systems. Transparency is a good thing, contrary to what any government agency will have you believe.



Étienne said:


> Another point comes to mind: he has repeatedly asked for an affirmative action system in France. That's really not the good way to solve the various social problems of the most recent immigrants.


So you are against affirmative action?


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Maybe it is the language barrier here, but I am not sure it's you mean to bemoan the loss of a "progressive" tax and then tell me the weight of the VAT is being shifted to the rich (as I cannot imagine you minding if the rich get soaked). I also, while not an economist, was always led to believe taxes like VATs were considered "regressive" as they hit the poor disproportionally? Maybe you can clarify.


Sorry, I was unclear. He plans to decrease the income tax and trade that for an increase in VAT. Indeed, the fiscal burden is shifted from the rich to the poor.

As for stimulating savings, unlike the USA, France has no shortage of savings. You could say we have a problem in where savings are used (not enough in risky investments). So even that is not a justification for a trade income tax/VAT.



> So you are against affirmative action?


Yes, as a matter of principle.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Étienne said:


> Sorry, I was unclear. He plans to decrease the income tax and trade that for an increase in VAT. Indeed, the fiscal burden is shifted from the rich to the poor.
> 
> As for stimulating savings, unlike the USA, France has no shortage of savings. You could say we have a problem in where savings are used (not enough in risky investments). So even that is not a justification for a trade income tax/VAT.


He should be cutting capital gains taxes then (if France has those) and/or any tax on investment gains. Maybe playing with amortization tables and the like to stimulate capital investments?



Étienne said:


> Yes, as a matter of principle.


Wow, we agree on something, and in principle too, not just as a pragmatic matter.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Wayfarer,

There is a savings glut in the rest of the world - its a double edged sword as lack of foreign consumption fuels the US trade imbalance but for the most part those excess dollars in foreign hands are dumped into US Treasuries which help keep US borrowing costs low (this will however change in the medium term has the US Dollar begins to lose some of its reserve currency status as foreign central banks begin to diversify their holdings.)

A national sales tax in the US (in lieu of the current income tax) might help bolster the anemic US savings rate as consumption would be taxed/penalized but savings and investments would not. There is a proposal to offer yearly rebates if there was a national sales tax so that the poor would not be adversely affected. I favor a national sales tax over a flat tax but would take a flat tax in a minute if we could scrap the current system.

Étienne,

We have finally found an issue that I am to the left of you on, namely affirmative action. I suppose such a view is heresy compared to my general libertarian world view but sometimes principle can get in the way of a decent and just policy.

Karl


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

Let's get this thread back on point.

How about GWB being sent to Paris as ambassador to France.

He would be beloved by the French.

BTW: He doesn't know enough about world affairs to be a roving ambassador. Well, you know, if Hillary C is elected (Ugh!), she could make GWB a roving world ambassador instead of Bill C. It would be an incredible act of reconciliation and noblesse oblige.

And maybe it could keep GWB away from the good old USA.

BTW: Very Jeffersonian, Oui?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

rnoldh,

Don't quit your day job bc neither comedy or satire are your forte.

Actually W would be could as an international spokesman in the effort to combat AIDS. I am no fan of W, but his efforts to combat AIDS and the American resources he has pledged in this fight are laudable.

The execution of the Iraq strategy and his reckless spending may very well doom W's administration to failure during his own time but it would not surprise me if history takes a kinder view of his presidency bc of his dedication to the fight against AIDS.

Karl


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> rnoldh,
> 
> Don't quit your day job bc neither comedy or satire are your forte.
> 
> ...


No argument here. He has done a good job on Aids awareness and prioritization.

But do you really think that one noble policy in the fight against Aids, could possibly offset all the horrendous policies and decisions that have occurred under his watch.

You may legitimately feel that history will take a kinder view of his Presidency than the current view.

Do you think history may redeem the reputations of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and the Vulcans?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

rnoldh,

Cheney and Rumsfeld are sunk but I do believe that the reputation of the neo-conservatives will be rehabilitated. I find it Kafkaesque that many of those who have opposed the war in Iraq have willingly turned themselves into apologists for Saddam and that their concern for human rights seems to ignore those suffering in places like China and North Korea. The removal of Saddam was a huge opportunity for Iraq and the Arab world to begin the painful but necessary process of embracing pluralism and elements of liberalism. While its a shame that the Bush administration stubborn refused to supply the necessary resources to foster success, its a tragedy that Iraq and Arab world squandered a chance to embrace a future that would begin to leave so much of baggage of the past behind.

Karl


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> rnoldh,
> 
> Cheney and Rumsfeld are sunk but I do believe that the reputation of the neo-conservatives will be rehabilitated. I find it Kafkaesque that many of those who have opposed the war in Iraq have willingly turned themselves into apologists for Saddam and that their concern for human rights seems to ignore those suffering in places like China and North Korea. The removal of Saddam was a huge opportunity for Iraq and the Arab world to begin the painful but necessary process of embracing pluralism and elements of liberalism. While its a shame that the Bush administration stubborn refused to supply the necessary resources to foster success, its a tragedy that Iraq and Arab world squandered a chance to embrace a future that would begin to leave so much of baggage of the past behind.
> 
> Karl


Agreed!


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> He should be cutting capital gains taxes then (if France has those) and/or any tax on investment gains. Maybe playing with amortization tables and the like to stimulate capital investments?


Many measures have been taken in the past 10-15 years to encourage more risky investments. I admit I am not sure how successful they have been.



> Wow, we agree on something, and in principle too, not just as a pragmatic matter.


And Karl89 is on my left on that matter. I just saw a pig fly.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Étienne



Étienne said:


> And Karl89 is on my left on that matter. I just saw a pig fly.


A pig fly? Didn't know that Airbus was flying the A380 over Paris today.....just kidding!

Karl


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