# Lined vs. Unlined Penny Loafers



## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

Other than potentially the heat, what are important things to consider regarding an unlined vs lined loafer? The most obvious relative equals are the alden 986 and the brooks equivalent.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Weight.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I'm talking myself into this purchase in the coming weeks and I've explored it just a bit both in person and on some AAAC threads and it seems that the BB version simply has less to it in the uppers. This makes it softer from the get-go and to my foot felt more like wearing a high-end boat shoe than my J&M Pennies, which have the stiff feeling of a dress shoe. The Aldens, from what I've heard, will break in, but will never quite develop such a casual feel. 

I believe someone put it that if you're going to wear them as sockless loafers, go BB, if you're wearing them for less casual dress go Alden. I'd like to hear more from owners of either or both, but this seems to be the AAAC consensus and my dealing with brand new specimens would seem to bear this out.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

The unlined look cooler.


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## chiamdream (Aug 7, 2009)

FWIW, I recently purchased the lined Aldens because I couldn't wait for a BB sale and Cook County sales tax is murder on a purchase like these. I think I'm on my fourth full-day wear, and let me confirm that these are decidedly NOT comfortable right out of the box, but they're getting there. Leather-soled loafers are always going to be dress shoes to my eyes, so the lining is a plus for me.


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

The Brooks Brothers unlined pennies are my go-to shoe to wear
with shorts in the summer or chinos--always without socks.

From the first day I purchased them, they fit like a glove.
They are fairly light weight (for shell cordovan) and quite
flexible, and very comfortable.


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## TheWGP (Jan 15, 2010)

Trip English said:


> I believe someone put it that if you're going to wear them as sockless loafers, go BB, if you're wearing them for less casual dress go Alden. I'd like to hear more from owners of either or both, but this seems to be the AAAC consensus and my dealing with brand new specimens would seem to bear this out.


I would agree with this assessment, from my experience. I have the BB unlined in #8 and black, and a pair of Alden black shell full strap 6845 loafers which admittedly aren't LHS' but should give some frame of reference.

The one point I'd like to make is that by no means is the BB unlined loafer impossible to dress up - with the right socks it can be just as versatile, IMO. They are comfortable sockless as well, but as chiamdream said, leather-soled shoes will always have at least a little "dress-shoe" connotation to me!


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

I can confirm that the lined LHS get more comfortable when they're broken in. I'm wearing mine now and they're like slippers. The BB unlined LHS are softer and more comfortable out of the box (they also run a little bit larger, in my experience).


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

Other than the exterior detailing specific to the brooks version of this shoe, why would an unlined model exactly similar to a lined model be any more or less dressy? 

would there be anything visibly different while wearing the shoe (generically, say AE decided to copy the Alden version exactly, but unlined is the only change)?


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

The shoes look pretty identical. I suspect that 99% of the public (even people on this forum) probably could not tell the difference. But, because the unlined indeed are unlined, in theory I suppose that they will take on a more broken-down, casual appearance over time (that has not yet happened with mine as they are relatively new).


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Less crease on the lined.


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## wmdunn (Jun 3, 2006)

My Brooks Brothers LHS #8 are an older vintage ... *lined* and as comfortable as anything I've ever worn.


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*lined vs. unlined*

I've owned both, worn both, enjoyed both. My experience (YMMV):

A. BB unlined very comfortable, fit quite well. they were the first pair of cordo penny's i owned.
B. the alden is a much more substantially built shoe. Heavier but also comfortable.
C. the sole on the BB wore through much more quickly. The sole on the Alden seems harder-wearing and less prone to abrasion.
D. I had a choice when it came time to replace my BB pair and i went with Alden and would do so again.
E. the BB unlined is still a very cool shoe.


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## chacend (Mar 4, 2008)

Don't forget that while that it is widely believed that these two shoes are built on different lasts. The Alden LHS is on the Van last and many knowledgeable opinions believe the Brooks version to be on the Copley last. So it is reasonable to believe that they could fit you differently.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

IMHO shoes of any design feel better on the foot and stay looking better, longer, when they are purchased with a soft leather lining. So, that is how I generally prefer to buy my shoes!


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## AdamsSutherland (Jan 22, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> IMHO shoes of any design *feel better on the foot* and stay looking better, longer, when they are purchased with a soft leather lining. So, that is how I generally prefer to buy my shoes!


Unless you dread wearing socks. :icon_smile_big:


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

For sockless wear, I find that lined shoes are less comfortable, and, at least for me, they get nastier from perspiration and dirt getting inside of them. Unlined shoes can be scraped out, if need be - lined shoes trap sand/dirt along the insole, from my experience.

I hate wearing lined shoes without socks and concur with an earlier poster who likened the BB unlined Aldens to bedroom slippers - they're buttery soft from the first moment you put them on.


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*Yes, and after a year of wearing without socks...*



Epaminondas said:


> For sockless wear, I find that lined shoes are less comfortable, and, at least for me, they get nastier from perspiration and dirt getting inside of them. Unlined shoes can be scraped out, if need be - lined shoes trap sand/dirt along the insole, from my experience.
> 
> I hate wearing lined shoes without socks and concur with an earlier poster who likened the BB unlined Aldens to bedroom slippers - they're buttery soft from the first moment you put them on.


After a year or so they may start looking like you've dipped your feet in butter before wearing them! ;>)


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## Speas (Mar 11, 2004)

IMO real penny loafers are better unlined. The BB LHS is very nice and comfortable and looks better to my eye than the Alden lined version (as is the Alden unlined flex welt suede loafer), but it isnt a mocassin penny. A moc will conform to your foot more so than a typical welted shoe - a lined version works against this.

Unfortunately there are very few quality unlined traditional pennys around. Actually, I dont know of any quality, unlined, full-grain leather, moc penny loafers that are readily available. The J&M Skimoc used to be serviceable, but it isnt worth a [email protected] now (unfortunately my old ones clapped out recently). I have a pair of Russells that I had made up with brown scotch grain boot leather. I'd probably go that way if I could get satisfied with Russell's burgundy penny leather (theirs is too thin IMO - I wore out a pair of unlined Russell tassel mocs very quickly due to the thin leather). I'm wearing a pair of discontinued AE Kenwoods (below). They're a nice design though the leather is a bit cheap.

Any ideas as anything out there (other than the standard Bass/Sebago/Florsheim/Cole Haan/J&M/Bean cheapies)? To bad Alden doesnt make an unlined Cape Cod penny.


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## CrackedCrab (Sep 23, 2008)

Speas on the higher end I think C&J makes a nice looking unlined cordovan penny called the Harvard. You can get it at Ben silver or several English Internet sources. I'm not sure if it's done in calf however.


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## Got Shell? (Jul 30, 2008)

The Harvard is done in at least 3 colors of calf, as well as dark brown, burgundy, and whisky (!) shell. Ben Silver has it in 2 calf and 2 shell colors, and it seems that the whisky shell Harvard is only offered at BS. Their whisky also seems darker in pics than Alden's whiskey, which is why I'm wanting a pair so badly.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I don't own either pair (Alden lined, BB unlined) but plan to get the Alden 986 eventually. In all these forum photos, it just looks chunkier, more substantial, more the real deal. It's gotten so I can tell them apart at a glance. As for going sockless, I'll leave that to my Ski-Mocs, boats, etc.

But yes (and the Alden sales associate confirmed this) the 986 is going to be a breaker-inner for awhile.


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## RTW (Jan 7, 2006)

chacend said:


> Don't forget that while that it is widely believed that these two shoes are built on different lasts. The Alden LHS is on the Van last and many knowledgeable opinions believe the Brooks version to be on the Copley last. So it is reasonable to believe that they could fit you differently.


Per Alden, the BB Cordovan Unlined Penny Loafer is made on the Van last.


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## chiamdream (Aug 7, 2009)

Joe Beamish said:


> But yes (and the Alden sales associate confirmed this) the 986 is going to be a breaker-inner for awhile.


Update: I'm closing in on my fifth full-day wear and I'm probably 90% of the way there.


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

Speas said:


> IMO real penny loafers are better unlined. The BB LHS is very nice and comfortable and looks better to my eye than the Alden lined version (as is the Alden unlined flex welt suede loafer), but it isnt a mocassin penny. A moc will conform to your foot more so than a typical welted shoe - a lined version works against this.


I was under the impression that the moc construction prevents resoling/recrafting. Is this incorrect?


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

goplutus said:


> I was under the impression that the moc construction prevents resoling/recrafting. Is this incorrect?


That depends on construction and how you define resoling.

Some moccasin constructed shoes are made with a single leather sole, sewn directly to the uppers (Gucci). This is really elegant and lightweight, but resoling means adding another layer of leather on top when the original gets worn down. Machines apparently exist that will sew a new sole directly to the uppers, but those are not common outside factories or major cobblers - your local shoe repair guy most certainly does _not_ have the machinery to do this, and frankly I wouldn't even want a factory doing this since it would inevitably mess with the longevity of the uppers (I look forward to debating this).

Some moccasin constructed shoes (Weejuns, Sebago, AE's penny loafers) have an outsole that is sewn to an upper sole (which is sewn to the uppers). The outsole can be replaced with ease since the upper sole, which is the only piece actually sewn to the uppers, acts like a welt does in welted shoes and is not separated from the uppers. This makes for an overall thicker sole, but it's easy to resole and more robust over the long term (and it also means the outsole can be replaced with rubber, or whatever).

I have diagrams somewhere that show this.


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## Wes Bourne (Nov 12, 2009)

Speas said:


> Unfortunately there are very few quality unlined traditional pennys around. Actually, I dont know of any quality, unlined, full-grain leather, moc penny loafers that are readily available. The J&M Skimoc used to be serviceable, but it isnt worth a [email protected] now (unfortunately my old ones clapped out recently). I have a pair of Russells that I had made up with brown scotch grain boot leather. I'd probably go that way if I could get satisfied with Russell's burgundy penny leather (theirs is too thin IMO - I wore out a pair of unlined Russell tassel mocs very quickly due to the thin leather). I'm wearing a pair of discontinued AE Kenwoods (below). They're a nice design though the leather is a bit cheap.
> 
> Any ideas as anything out there (other than the standard Bass/Sebago/Florsheim/Cole Haan/J&M/Bean cheapies)? To bad Alden doesnt make an unlined Cape Cod penny.


full grain penny loafer in Tan:

My only problem with these is the vamp is lower than other loafers, which results in slight heel lift, but ymmv. Aside from that, very serviceable if you don't mind the fact they're not made in the USA.


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

I have a pair of logans in burgundy, and it is most certainly corrected /brush off leather. serviceable shoes, but not really high quality.


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## Wes Bourne (Nov 12, 2009)

goplutus said:


> I have a pair of logans in burgundy, and it is most certainly corrected /brush off leather. serviceable shoes, but not really high quality.


The Logans in Burgundy and Black are both cg (called Brush Off), but the Tan ones are full grain leather (called Smooth). Trust me, I have a Tan pair. Fwiw, I believe the Tan ones were reviewed a couple of times here and many vendors do list them accurately as being full grain. Click on the closeup of the Tan.


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## AAF-8AF (Feb 24, 2009)

Wes Bourne said:


>


Nice leather, but the stitching on the strap is quite sad.
.
.


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## Wes Bourne (Nov 12, 2009)

AAF-8AF said:


> Nice leather, but the stitching on the strap is quite sad.
> .
> .


But not inaccurate; iirc, I've seen vintage made in Maine Weejuns with the same sewing on the strap. Besides, for less than $100 full RRP (and Shoebuy soes usually has a coupon floating around) for a full grain leather soled penny, beggars can't be choosers...


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Weejuns of all ages had that extra bit of stitching at the edges of the strap. Look in Flusser's big black book and you will see Humphrey Bogart wearing a pair of Weejuns with the same stitching. Only the absolute earliest models, from what little info I've found, had stitching really close to the edge (and thus not as distinctive). It is what it is.


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## AAF-8AF (Feb 24, 2009)

Wes Bourne said:


> But not inaccurate; iirc, I've seen vintage made in Maine Weejuns with the same sewing on the strap. Besides, for less than $100 full RRP (and Shoebuy soes usually has a coupon floating around) for a full grain leather soled penny, beggars can't be choosers...


I wasn't referring to the pattern, if that's what you meant. I was referring to the widely varying stitch lengths. 
.
.


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## Wes Bourne (Nov 12, 2009)

AAF-8AF said:


> I wasn't referring to the pattern, if that's what you meant. I was referring to the widely varying stitch lengths.
> .
> .


My bad. Pulled out mine; turns out the stitching of the 'pattern' is kinda uneven, not as bad as the ones pictured though. Again, for less than $100, can't complain. Besides, I had never noticed before...


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

Any particular reason the brown is a better leather than the other colors? I'm assuming it's either easier/cheaper to source brown full grain than black / burgundy, or the brush-off looks better on the shelf (where as the brown looks better "in matte").


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## Speas (Mar 11, 2004)

^ I think that they expect folks want shiny burgundy penny loafers rather than having to polish them. Sebago used to make both in the Cayman - no more unfortunately.

Here is a pic of my Russells. I've had them for a few years now. The construction is solid but not particularly elegant - these are definitely boot makers. When I got the shoes one of the midsoles was not stained, so that may speak to their QC. They fit great though being moc construction and custom fit. A bit heavy with the rubber vibram 430 sole I had put on them. The leather is done right though - no lining needed at all (though they seem to push the lined version only now).


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

goplutus said:


> Any particular reason the brown is a better leather than the other colors? I'm assuming it's either easier/cheaper to source brown full grain than black / burgundy, or the brush-off looks better on the shelf (where as the brown looks better "in matte").


The reason I can think of is because the burgundy and black is made to look like its shell counterpart. When I got my burgundy Sebagos they looked much like shell, but they creased unfortunately and they will not polish and if they scuff your sunk.


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## Wes Bourne (Nov 12, 2009)

dwebber18 said:


> The reason I can think of is because the burgundy and black is made to look like its shell counterpart. When I got my burgundy Sebagos they looked much like shell, but they creased unfortunately and they will not polish and if they scuff your sunk.


While corrected grain might bear a brief and passing resemblance to its shell counterparts, I believe it was originally intended to provide shoes that required less maintenance since they have that built in 'shine'. Plus, it allowed manufacturers to use inferior hides since all the imperfections were smoothed out/sanded before that top layer of paint is applied. I once took some undiluted acetone nail polish remover to an old pair of cg captoes, hoping to remove the shine and prep them for a dye job. didn't like what I saw underneath. The surface was so uniform (no visible pores at all) that it looked more like vinyl than leather. I gave those away.

If you really want some cheap full grain burgundy or black Weejuns, I'd suggest you buy the Larson. Alternately, you can get the tan Logan and try to dye it; not sure the dye will work on the waxed stitching thread though...

Speas, I like your Russells! NOS made in the USA pebble grain Cole Haan pennies show up on ebay from time to time, but usually in larger sizes.


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## Got Shell? (Jul 30, 2008)

You just don't see pebble grain loafers. I wonder why?


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

goplutus said:


> Any particular reason the brown is a better leather than the other colors? I'm assuming it's either easier/cheaper to source brown full grain than black / burgundy, or the brush-off looks better on the shelf (where as the brown looks better "in matte").


At the price range we're talking about in this thread, heavily resurfaced and colour dyed black/burgundy leather is much, much cheaper than full grain brown.


Wes Bourne said:


> While corrected grain might bear a brief and passing resemblance to its shell counterparts, I believe it was originally intended to provide shoes that required less maintenance since they have that built in 'shine'.


That's exactly why Sebago refers to it as "brush-off". It's really easy to clean, since you just....well, duh. But there are different grades of this stuff, too. I have an old pair of Dack's penny loafers in the gloss: hundreds of miles later they look okay and can be quickly and easily cleaned, which makes them great for winter. SAS uses good quality brush-off which will respond reasonably well to shoe cream, but Sebago for instance uses crappy brush-off that will simply never look good.


Wes Bourne said:


> Plus, it allowed manufacturers to use inferior hides since all the imperfections were smoothed out/sanded before that top layer of paint is applied.


It's all about cost savings for shoes at this end of the price scale. Alden, AE, and the UK brands can source good quality leathers since their customers are willing to pay significantly more.


Got Shell? said:


> You just don't see pebble grain loafers. I wonder why?


Cost, and because not many people wear pebble grain anymore. Pebble grain, or scotchgrain, is a pretty casual leather and most people want to wear dress shoes with a more formal look (and when not wearing dress shoes, they opt for sneakers not casual dress shoes).

I would love to see pebble grain penny loafers, but the only way that will happen is if Tom gets off his keister and gets Alden to run up their LHS in a pebble grain (they've done it before).


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## Wes Bourne (Nov 12, 2009)

Got Shell? said:


> You just don't see pebble grain loafers. I wonder why?





Doctor Damage said:


> Cost, and because not many people wear pebble grain anymore. Pebble grain, or scotchgrain, is a pretty casual leather and most people want to wear dress shoes with a more formal look (and when not wearing dress shoes, they opt for sneakers not casual dress shoes).
> 
> I would love to see pebble grain penny loafers, but the only way that will happen is if Tom gets off his keister and gets Alden to run up their LHS in a pebble grain (they've done it before).


If you happen to wear an 11D (x-post from the ebay thread):


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Got Shell? said:


> You just don't see pebble grain loafers. I wonder why?


If anyone is interested I visited Rush Wilson in downtown Greenville today and they were featuring an Alden special make up - an alpine grain lhs (van last)! It looks like the same leather used on the All-Weather-Walker. They also had a special order NST in alpine grain. The price for the alpine grain loafer was $425. If anyone wants more details their phone number is: (864)232-2761. Honestly, if I had to choose between the LHS in shell or this alpine grain, I would have chosen the alpine grain. It was gorgeous.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Cardinals5: Perchance were those alpine grained LHS's done up in Cognac calf and with the flex-welt soles?


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Cardinals5: Perchance were those alpine grained LHS's done up in Cognac calf and with the flex-welt soles?


They certainly might have been "cognac" alpine grain (hard to describe the actual color). I have the All-Weather-Walkers and they were definitely darker than those and had a reddish tint. The soles looked like the standard single-leather sole rather than the flex welt.


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## Georgia (Aug 26, 2007)

LongWing said:


> The unlined look cooler.





Ron_A said:


> I can confirm that the lined LHS get more comfortable when they're broken in. I'm wearing mine now and they're like slippers. The BB unlined LHS are softer and more comfortable out of the box (they also run a little bit larger, in my experience).


^^Agree on both counts.


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## tiesmith (Mar 3, 2010)

*BB surprise*

I visited Brooks Brothers store on Madison Ave yesterday looking for a pair of unlined LHS in my hard to find(?) size 7 1/2, but I can report the sighting of a special run Whiskey unlined LHS in stock!
Anyone interested should call for size availability. They are the nicest I have seen. Of course they didn't have my size.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

tiesmith said:


> I visited Brooks Brothers store on Madison Ave yesterday looking for a pair of unlined LHS in my hard to find(?) size 7 1/2, but I can report the sighting of a special run Whiskey unlined LHS in stock!
> Anyone interested should call for size availability. They are the nicest I have seen. Of course they didn't have my size.


thank you for the information. welcome to the forum


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## tiesmith (Mar 3, 2010)

Thank you, it's lots of fun and informative!


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## TheWGP (Jan 15, 2010)

tiesmith said:


> I visited Brooks Brothers store on Madison Ave yesterday looking for a pair of unlined LHS in my hard to find(?) size 7 1/2, but I can report the sighting of a special run Whiskey unlined LHS in stock!
> Anyone interested should call for size availability. They are the nicest I have seen. Of course they didn't have my size.


Anyone else seen these? My store CLAIMS they're getting some in this weekend sometime... but I'll believe it when I see it! I can't find any photos or anything either.


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## tiesmith (Mar 3, 2010)

*Whiskey unlined LHS at BB*

I went to the Brooks Brothers store on Madison Ave. in NYC this afternoon, the salesman was kind enough to allow me to take a couple of pictures of the unlined Whiskey LHS on display, now if I could only attach them to this reply we would be in business. Any hints?


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=60615


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## TheWGP (Jan 15, 2010)

I actually obtained a pair today via special order from 346 Madison to my local store! I'll be posting a thread tonight with photos and information... gotta run to dinner for now!


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## FlashForFreedom (May 16, 2009)

Congrats WPG. Damn my small foot size, the BB on Madison Ave. did not have my size. I will just have to focus on breaking in the BB LHS #8s...


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