# war of the longwings: AE macneil vs Alden 975



## srivats

Does anyone here own both the alden longwing and the AE macneil? Have these two iconic shoes been ever compared on AAAC? If you were to buy just one shoe amongst these two, which one would it be?

I have been patiently waiting to buy a pair of alden longwings (in #8 shell cordovan) and I have been cheating (so to say) by looking at other shoes - espicially C&J darltons (for ralph lauren) and the AE Macneils. I will definitely be getting the darltons someday (can't resist that color!) and I want to decide if the AE MacNeils are worth a shot too. CrownShip has posted plenty of awesome photos on this model, but it is hard to compare them with the alden longwing from say mac, because the sizes are different.

I own 3 shoes on the barrie last and I love the shape, but I am not sure how the AE macneils look. If someone owns both pairs, I'd love to see a pic of these two shoes side by side.

I'd request not to make this a AE vs Alden arguement thread ... I am more interested in the stylistic differences in external apprearance between these models than the "shank vs no shank" and similiar construction differences between AE and Alden 

Long live longwings!


----------



## dport86

I own both: whiskey shell longwings and pebbled macneils. Almost bought a pair of *8 macneils at the annual sale. If you like the barrie last fit and shape, you'll probably be disappointed by the macneils. Very comfortable as well, but a much different look. LIke the old Florsheim Royal Imperial pebbleds, they come to more of a point though they are quite wide through the ball of the foot. the look is well represented in many of crownships photos. My barries are much rounder, flatter (not nearly as much volume in the toe box, so strangely sleeker) and wider fendered. unlikely i will be able to take side by side photos for you but i think you should wait for your aldens. OTOH, there are those for whom the Macneil has no peer. suspect that is a fit issue. I cheated, bought the macneils first, went to the aldens and now rarely wear the macneils. nuff said


----------



## srivats

^ That is exactly what I wanted to hear. Thank you very much!

I am a big fan of the barrie last and the shape - I dislike shoes with pointed toes that is one of the reasons why I don't like the aberdeen last. If the AEs are distintcly pointed than the alden 975, then I will simply wait and get the alden longwings later on. 

It would still be awesome to see the pics of both shoes for reference though.


----------



## Got Shell?

I only own Alden 975's in #8. For me the Alden has a slightly better overall aesthetic appeal, with a more rounded toe. I think this gives it a slightly more casual look. That coupled with the fact that I have experienced better shell characteristics with Alden vs. AE, lead me to choose the Alden. That said, I have been on the lookout for a pair of black shell longwings, and Macneils would certainly fit the bill if I find a pair at the right price. It's really just a matter of preference, both are great shoes.


----------



## Crownship

I can guarantee my shoes aren't at war on my shoe shelves.
My MacNeils and Alden long wings are living in perfect harmony.

That being said. I do have several pairs of each. If you want photos of them side by side I'll charge a small fee and send you the payment info.
All you have to do is ask.


----------



## srivats

Crownship said:


> I
> That being said. I do have several pairs of each. If you want photos of them side by side I'll charge a small fee and send you the payment info.
> All you have to do is ask.


Please!

and what is the nature of the said fees?


----------



## Crownship

srivats said:


> Please!
> 
> and what is the nature of the said fees?


I already started the long, strenuous process of taking pictures and downloading them. I'll include them with the other info you requested.
My fees are steep so be ready to pay a huge price for my expertise.


----------



## srivats

Crownship said:


> I already started the long, strenuous process of taking pictures and downloading them. I'll include them with the other info you requested.
> My fees are steep so be ready to pay a huge price for my expertise.


As long as the fee is not a pair of either longwing, I'm game :icon_smile:


----------



## mcarthur

SRI,
You have engaged an excellent consultant. When you hire the best, I assume you are willing to pay $1,000 an hour (two winks)


----------



## eagle2250

dport86 said:


> I own both: whiskey shell longwings and pebbled macneils. Almost bought a pair of *8 macneils at the annual sale. If you like the barrie last fit and shape, you'll probably be disappointed by the macneils. Very comfortable as well, but a much different look. LIke the old Florsheim Royal Imperial pebbleds, they come to more of a point though they are quite wide through the ball of the foot. the look is well represented in many of crownships photos. My barries are much rounder, flatter (not nearly as much volume in the toe box, so strangely sleeker) and wider fendered. unlikely i will be able to take side by side photos for you but i think you should wait for your aldens. OTOH, there are those for whom the Macneil has no peer. suspect that is a fit issue. I cheated, bought the macneils first, went to the aldens and now rarely wear the macneils. nuff said


dport86's experience very closely echos mine with the AE MacNeil vs Alden's long wings, though our conclusions regarding toe box designs might be quite different. The wider (and, I think, more voluminous) toe box of the Alden's allows considerably more wiggle room for the toes and that results in the Alden's seeming somewhat more comfortable to me. With both the AE and Alden models in #8 shell, this difference in design resulted in my #8 MacNeils being passed on to my son-in-law. Although, I'm not sure how that reconciles with the three pair of calfskin MacNeils still in my shoe rotation.


----------



## Crownship

mcarthur said:


> SRI,
> You have engaged an excellent consultant. When you hire the best, I assume you are willing to pay $1,000 an hour (two winks)


It's good to know some members around here understand value and charging an acceptable rate for intellectual property.:icon_smile_big:


----------



## The Continental Fop

Full disclosure: With nine pairs and counting, I am an Alden guy through and through, particularly the shells. I also own four pairs of AEs and like them a lot, but I feel they are a distinct step down in quality, workmanship, and overall coolness compared with my Aldens. 

With one exception: my color 8 shell MacNeil longwings, which, as it happens, I'm wearing at the moment. Hands-down my favorite AEs. Never wear them with a suit, though -- jeans and odd trousers only. The fit is extraordinary, the reddish oxblood color of the shell is perfection, and the thick double sole seems impervious to whatever elements the Northeast can dish out. Alden's LHS remains my favorite jean shoe, but the MacNeils are a close second.

I tried on both Alden's and AEs longwings in shell when I was looking for a pair, but felt the Aldens were too roomy in the toe box when sized correctly, too tight when sized 1/2 down. I also prefer the narrower profile of the MacNeil, at least on my feet and with jeans/khakis etc. I may get stoned for saying this, but I thought the Aldens looked a bit goofy on me -- to my eyes, the fuller, more rounded toe seems even moreso with all that brogue throwing down. 

Both are beautiful shoes, but I prefer the AEs. Like all good shells, they get better and better and require very little maintenance to look amazing. I came late to the longwing party having dismissed the genre as an old man's shoe, but I am definitely making up for lost time -- I spend more time in my MacNeils than my other 3 prs of AEs combined.


----------



## Crownship

Fixing photos


----------



## Crownship

fixing photos


----------



## Doctor Damage

Try on both the AE and the Aldens.
Buy the pair which fits your feet the best.


----------



## dport86

+1 for do what fits your fit. If your toes feel a little scrunched in the MacNeils, chances are the Aldens will feel great. If the Aldens make your toes feel like they are lost in space, the Macneils will probably fit you better. Both great shoes. I agree that today the Aldens feel slightly more solid and better finished. I've seen pictures of vintage macneils that make them look as solid as the old florsheims, which might be the toughest and strongest of all.


----------



## 127.72 MHz

Fashion is highly subjective. That being said I don't think there's another aspect in the fashion world that's more subjective than shoes. 

In this realm not only is beauty in the eye of the beholder, but also quality. (I think the Trad forum has been down this road before)

Since we're on such a highly subjective subject I'll venture another subjective view. I think a majority of the regulars here in the Trad forum are far too biased in favor of Alden shoes,...

Don't get me wrong I just purchased my 13th, 14th, and 15th pair of Aldens from "cbird." (one heck of a nice fellow with some high end tastes in shoes) And I have another pair on order from Tom Park at Leather Soul. 

Since this is the war of the long wings rather than between Allen Edmonds and Alden as shoemakers I think it's a bit easier. (although still quite subjective)

I do own both the Alden 975 which I purchased at the full retail price of $572.-. My Allen Edmonds MacNeils were free as a result of them being the 12th pair of shoes I purchased in a now defunct program they offered. (although the retail price on Shoemart.com is $475.-)

Although the Aldens go for about a hundred bucks more than the Allen Edmonds I would pay a hundred bucks more for the MacNeils. I'm not saying the Allen Edmonds are as good as the Aldens, I'm saying they're better. (might as well have my subjective two cents as well as the next guy right?)

I feel the same way about my burgundy Shell AE Bradley's at $525.- verses my $605.- Alden 2210. (the Bradley has been discontinued so buy them now if you want them)

That being said overall I like Alden's styles much better than those now being offered by Allen Edmonds. I just think Allen Edmonds is going too far fashion forward for my tastes. 

I know that was quite a bit more then my two cents worth.

Best wishes,
Bill Woodward
Portland, Oregon


----------



## babycatcher

Here are some Alden's, sadly no AE's, but a few of these are a little different:










Brown Calf









Brown Suede









#8 Shell









Black shell (not worn much)









Whiskey shell from Rider Boot Co.

Somebody point me in the direction of cigar and revello please!


----------



## 127.72 MHz

You wear all of them very nicely.:icon_smile_wink:

I'd be interested in knowing the story behind the whiskey shells by the Rider boot company.

When did they offer them? How long have you had them? (etc.)

Thanks for the images.

Bill Woodward
Portland, Oregon


----------



## Crownship

*Alden and Allen Edmonds Long Wingtip Comparison*

I posted alot of pictures so you can see the differences at a variety of angles.

Like it's already been said the Barrie last is big. 
My 13ee Aldens on the Barrie last are bigger than my 13eee MacNeils on the #7 last. 
For example the Aldens fit more like mittens because of the extra room in the toe. But it's not 
sloppy loose. 
The MacNeils fit is more like a glove. They're not tight but they hug your feet. 
My toes don't have near the wiggle room of the Aldens. In my case it's not uncomfortable. The heels 
on the Alden and AEs fit similar. Plenty of room. 
The MacNeil and Leeds have what's called Arch Support built into the shoes. 
I haven't seen that feature on any other AE models.

My Aldens are heavier shoes by 4-6 oz per shoe. Yes I weighed them. I had to know. 
4-6 oz. isn't really that much for me. But that's nearly the weight of one of my house slippers. All 
of the Aldens were heavier than the AE MacNeils. 
The heaviest were the Alden mahogany shell cordovan. 
One Alden mahogany shell shoe weighed 1lb 15oz. 
Alden black pebble grain, 1lb 14oz. 
Alden brown calf, 1lb 13oz. 
MacNeil chili pebble grain, 1lb 11oz extra wide 
MacNeil #8 shell, 1lb 11oz wide 
The lightest were the MacNeil black shell cordovan 1lb 9oz. extra wide.

Sole widths of the MacNeil chili calf are the same as the Aldens just over 5".
They're also 10+ years older than the black shell MacNeils which have a slightly narrower sole. Of 
course that doesn't effect the feel of the shoes and is barely noticeable.

The black shell MacNeils are the newest shoes with the black insoles used in the current AEs. 
They have the thinnest double oak soles of the bunch. The other shoes have nearly the same sole thickness.
I don't know if that's the new standard for the MacNeils but the soles are considerably thinner than 
the older MacNeils. I took photos of that. 
It could be to cut costs or decrease the time you need new soles and return them for a refurb job.

I use both models with the same clothing. I'll usually wear my MacNeils with pants with smaller leg openings. The Aldens look bigger so they can handle wide legged 
pants with wide leg openings without ever looking lost. 
Now my feet are big and I'm big & tall so none of my gunboats get lost in my pants with wide openings.

That extra room and weight of Aldens gives me the impression I can kick over a semi truck without 
stubbing my big toe. Because they feel nearly as roomy as some boots.
Neither model is elegant and I like that. They're like a big luxury sedan vs a sleek sports car. 
These are American gunboats, nothing dainty about them.

I can't argue one company against the other. Both are of the highest quality. I wear both models 
often and have no complaints. 
I don't have any issues with my feet that cause me pain or needs for a specific type of shoe. So I 
can't say from experience what shoe is best for a particular foot type. 
I like them all and wouldn't trade one brand for the other.
My favorite is the mahogany shell Aldens because they're the rarest.
If my mahogany shells were Allen Edmonds then those would be my favorites.
Regardless of favorites they all get worn.
I like my vintage Florsheim Imperials too.

I hope that helps. Enjoy.

My artillery.
























It's a little difficult to see from a photo but the toe box lays flatter on the Allen Edmonds.









Alden on left AE on right. 
The Alden tongue edge has pinking, MacNeils have a clean cut.









Shell differences










Not much difference in the length of the shoes. 


















The lighter color of the chili calf MacNeils makes them look narrower than the shell MacNeils.
They're the same. I did notice that the toe box on the shell MacNeils extends furthur back into the shoes. I don't know if that's on all newer MacNeils or shell models only.









Noticeable difference in the lasts.

































Older vs New MacNeil
Big difference in sole thickness. 
The older AEs sole is built to go furthur.









Lots of pictures I know, but one or two wouldn't do the shoes justice.

Photos of Florsheims will be extra.

Vintage Florsheim Imperials and MacNeils
















The Florsheim toe box is a little bigger than AEs but nothing compared to Aldens.

A bill will be sent.


----------



## obiwan

^ And I thought I loved wingtips, outstanding presentation.


----------



## babycatcher

127: These were a custom order--I had to wait awhile (5 mo) to get them. If you contact Ron, he can do similar---he is only limited by the availability of the Horween shell.

CS: sweet! This could be the beginning of a Master's thesis.....


----------



## eagle2250

CS: Thank-you for a very thorough, indeed fascinating, comparison of two classic American interpretations of "Gunboats!"


----------



## srivats

CS, the pictures are wonderful, and so are your shoes. This goes far and beyond what I asked for, I cannot thank you enough for this. 

I am going to buy a pair of Macneils and I will update this thread with my comments once they come by.

edit:
The mahogany shell is exquisite, and the vintage florshiems are even more amazing.


----------



## mcarthur

CS,
I greatly appreciated your time and effort in your posting of the LWB.
Thank you


----------



## 127.72 MHz

Babycatcher: Ron at Rider Boot Co. or another Ron at a specific dealer?

Crownship: Outstanding. I had thought about a layout including Imperials but nothing I could have done would have matched your images and commentary. I'm going to print them and keep them in my Alden and Allen Edmonds catalogs.

I have a couple of pairs of American made Imperials. I just love them.

Best,
Bill Woodward
Portland, Oregon


----------



## rebel222

Here is a pic of my Florsheims & Macneils.

The Florsheims are the darker shoes. In my experience Allen Edmonds uses thicker leather on their shell cordovan shoes. Even compared to Alden. Is this worth something? I don't know. The Florsheim feels like a more substantial shoe. The sole leather is denser and longer lasting. Also, the dozens of nails & v-cleat could add to the weight. The construction is similar; however, the Macneil uses a multi-piece construction of the upper. On the sides, where the laces attachment of the blucher(sorry, I don't know the technical term) connects with the body of the shoe, there is a seam. It is under the connection; however, you can see a raised portion where they meet. I know Hanover also uses this type of construction. I have been told that this is due to the price of Shell Cordovan leather. Presumably, you can make more shoes if you piece them together than if you use a solid once piece construction. The Florsheims use 1 peice as well as Alden. I am sure Florsheim did because these are older shoes when shell was much cheaper.


----------



## srivats

Update:

I have placed my order for a pair of shell Macneil (factory seconds) from the Allen Edmonds Shoe Bank today. They will be here next week.

Next step, alden 975s (next month)!


----------



## srivats

Logan, thanks for the pic and the short summary. Even though the shell hanovers have a "multi-piece" construction as you describe, I will point that it does not detract the looks at all. The Hanovers I have are very substantial shoes in all respects - esp. the soles. They are wearing extremely well, even after many wearings.

Crownship, your post is so detailed and so well written that I have read it atleast 20 times now. 

I am saddened to see new Macneils having less thick soles. How do these soles compare to your alden 975s?


----------



## babycatcher

127.72 MHz said:


> Babycatcher: Ron at Rider Boot Co. or another Ron at a specific dealer?
> 
> Ron Rider owns Rider Boot Co. he works through his blog, and has online sales through Franco's Fine Clothiers. His blog is here:
> 
> Happy hunting!


----------



## chava

I'd like to buy my first pair of MacNeils. If there was one color I should consider for wear with jeans and/or chinos, what color would you gentlemen recommend?


----------



## srivats

chava said:


> I'd like to buy my first pair of MacNeils. If there was one color I should consider for wear with jeans and/or chinos, what color would you gentlemen recommend?


If you are buying shell, go with #8. For calf, go with chili.


----------



## Cowtown

srivats said:


> Update:
> 
> I have placed my order for a pair of shell Macneil (factory seconds) from the Allen Edmonds Shoe Bank today. They will be here next week.
> 
> Next step, alden 975s (next month)!


Do you have a link for the site with the seconds?


----------



## 127.72 MHz

Thanks Babycatcher,...

Srivats, most often when I have purchased seconds from Allen Edmonds the flaw was lace holes that do not align correctly with one another. (I have rotated out all but one pair of AE shells that are seconds,...If it's a flaw I can't see it's no problem but the lace holes not lining up drives me nuts!)

Good luck with them.

Bill Woodward
Portland, Oregon


----------



## srivats

Cowtown said:


> Do you have a link for the site with the seconds?


There is no website. You have to call them at: 262-284-7158

The address is:
Allen Edmonds Shoe Bank at the Factory 
201 East Seven Hills Road 
Port Washington, Wisconsin 53074




127.72 MHz said:


> Srivats, most often when I have purchased seconds from Allen Edmonds the flaw was lace holes that do not align correctly with one another. (I have rotated out all but one pair of AE shells that are seconds,...If it's a flaw I can't see it's no problem but the lace holes not lining up drives me nuts!)


Thanks for the info. I will watch out for this in my pair.


----------



## hbs midwest

chava said:


> I'd like to buy my first pair of MacNeils. If there was one color I should consider for wear with jeans and/or chinos, what color would you gentlemen recommend?


Burgundy/#8...end of discussion.:icon_smile_big:

hbs


----------



## Crownship

obiwan said:


> ^ And I thought I loved wingtips, outstanding presentation.


Nothing compares to that classic design. Long wings aren't for everybody. 
But if I was someone that didn't like long wings before looking at those photos I would sure consider buying a pair after seeing them.



babycatcher said:


> CS: sweet! This could be the beginning of a Master's thesis.....


Ha ha. I'm still working on my Master's in Hard Knocks University.



eagle2250 said:


> CS: Thank-you for a very thorough, indeed fascinating, comparison of two classic American interpretations of "Gunboats!"


Thanks. Most who own long wings on this forum are fortunate to be able to call them gunboats. 
With my size "Aircraft Carriers" sounds a little more appropriate. Doesn't sound as cool as gunboats.



mcarthur said:


> CS,
> I greatly appreciated your time and effort in your posting of the LWB.
> Thank you


You're welcome. Of course my knowledge of Aldens LWB doesn't compare to your many years of Alden history.



127.72 MHz said:


> Crownship: Outstanding. I had thought about a layout including Imperials but nothing I could have done would have matched your images and commentary.
> I'm going to print them and keep them in my Alden and Allen Edmonds catalogs.
> 
> I have a couple of pairs of American made Imperials. I just love them.
> 
> Best,
> Bill Woodward
> Portland, Oregon


That's what the information is for. Use it to your advantage. Lots of good info on these threads.
If you're like me I hang onto my old Allen Edmonds and Alden catalogs from years ago.
It's good to revisit those classics every once in awhile.



srivats said:


> CS, the pictures are wonderful, and so are your shoes. This goes far and beyond what I asked for, I cannot thank you enough for this.
> I am going to buy a pair of Macneils and I will update this thread with my comments once they come by.
> edit:
> The mahogany shell is exquisite, and the vintage florshiems are even more amazing.





srivats said:


> Crownship, your post is so detailed and so well written that I have read it atleast 20 times now.
> I am saddened to see new Macneils having less thick soles. How do these soles compare to your alden 975s?


Your welcome. That's what it's for. When I spend my money on something like shoes or even a major purchase like a car I want to research the product. 
I'll look at the pictures and read articles over and over and read others experience with that product. It helps me make an informed decision but it also reassures me that I spent my money on a quality product.
You can't go wrong with either shoe.
As far as payment is concerned, if you can't send me $3750 you can inform me if you ever run across a pair of Allen Edmonds alligator shoes in my size.
It's not likely you will.
So just share what you know with others with your future long wings.
Bring about world peace, buy a fleet of American gunboats.:icon_smile_big:

As a side note I think this would be a great place for others to share their history with the Long Wing if they want.
I'll post some photos here periodically to see if it inspires any other members.

Thanks for the comments everybody.


----------



## epfunk

from a huge fan of the longwing... thanks for the info and pics.


----------



## srivats

CS, I once again thank you for this excellent pictorial review/commentary. It definitely helped my decision a lot. Now I know without doubt that I am getting a quality shoe that I will enjoy wearing. And I think 'aircraft carriers' are cooler than gunboats  To go with your sz 14 feet, you have a huge heart too, so all is well 



Crownship said:


> So just share what you know with others with your future long wings.
> *Bring about world peace, buy a fleet of American gunboats*.:icon_smile_big:


Sir, yes sir! Today I placed an order for shell Alden longwings have been at shoemart  They will be here in 2nd week of april (they are awaiting a shipment). Yes, I bought two pairs of shell longwings in the same week. I love longwings!


----------



## mcarthur

srivats said:


> CS, I once again thank you for this excellent pictorial review/commentary. It definitely helped my decision a lot. Now I know without doubt that I am getting a quality shoe that I will enjoy wearing. And I think 'aircraft carriers' are cooler than gunboats  To go with your sz 14 feet, you have a huge heart too, so all is well
> 
> Sir, yes sir! Today I placed an order for shell Alden longwings have been at shoemart  They will be here in 2nd week of april (they are awaiting a shipment). Yes, I bought two pairs of shell longwings in the same week. I love longwings!


You have become addictive


----------



## srivats

mcarthur said:


> You have become addictive


Absolutely, and I am enjoying every minute of it - I gotta thank you and CS educating me. You can never have too many shell longwings. There is always room for one more pair!


----------



## Got Shell?

I need a pair of black shell longwings. Crownship, your mahogany Alden longwings are sublime. Wow.


----------



## srivats

My Macneils came in today. They fit very comfortably and look great - different from Barrie definitely and less heavier. I am happy with the purchase!


----------



## mcarthur

srivats said:


> My Macneils came in today. They fit very comfortably and look great - different from Barrie definitely and less heavier. I am happy with the purchase!


Enjoy wearing


----------



## Crownship

epfunk said:


> from a huge fan of the longwing... thanks for the info and pics.


You're welcome.



srivats said:


> CS, I once again thank you for this excellent pictorial review/commentary. It definitely helped my decision a lot. Now I know without doubt that I am getting a quality shoe that I will enjoy wearing. And I think 'aircraft carriers' are cooler than gunboats  To go with your sz 14 feet, you have a huge heart too, so all is well
> Sir, yes sir! Today I placed an order for shell Alden longwings have been at shoemart  They will be here in 2nd week of april (they are awaiting a shipment). Yes, I bought two pairs of shell longwings in the same week. I love longwings!





srivats said:


> Absolutely, and I am enjoying every minute of it - I gotta thank you and CS educating me. You can never have too many shell longwings. There is always room for one more pair!


Glad the info helped. Good to see you're refusing to participate in a recession.
Like Mac said shell can be addicting.
Like Pringles or Lays pototoe chips, you can't eat just one.



Got Shell? said:


> I need a pair of black shell longwings. Crownship, your mahogany Alden longwings are sublime. Wow.


Thank you.
You won't be disappointed with black shell. It's like looking into a bucket of used motor oil or tar. You can see past the surface. Almost like liquid.


----------



## Doctor Damage

This thread is no longer safe for dial-up!

I found this photo particularly useful:


Crownship said:


>


There's a shoe store near my work that is selling the AE MacNeil and can order the shell cordovan for a good price. I'm seriously thinking about them and that photo kind of answered some questions I had about the MacNeil. It's a good looking shoe but I've seen no good photos on the internet before this one.

Here's the pricing for Canada (final prices):
AE MacNeil (shell cordovan) = CAD$655
Alden LHS/tassel (calfskin) = CAD$625

Hmmm...assuming fit is okay, that's not a hard decision.


----------



## Got Shell?

Here's my 975's that I so cherish:










And I had to show off my new Alden black shell gunboats! They are works of art.




























Longwings are the king of shoes!


----------



## Spats

Crownship said:


> Most who own long wings on this forum are fortunate to be able to call them gunboats.
> With my size "Aircraft Carriers" sounds a little more appropriate.
> 
> As a side note I think this would be a great place for others to share their history with the Long Wing if they want.


 In a previous thread someone, referring to longwings, said their familial predecessors wore "running board" wingtips and I liked the picture that evoked. The full length perforations extending back from the "wings" do indeed call to mind wide running boards that went from front to back along a car's side until about, oh, 1940 or so. And they looked old-fashioned then. You have to go back to the 1920's to find the era when running boards looked stylish. They looked a bit dated in the 30's. Talking about cars now, not shoes! But if the "shoe" fits...


----------



## Crownship

Spats said:


> In a previous thread someone, referring to longwings, said their familial predecessors wore "running board" wingtips and I liked the picture that evoked. The full length perforations extending back from the "wings" do indeed call to mind wide running boards that went from front to back along a car's side until about, oh, 1940 or so. And they looked old-fashioned then. You have to go back to the 1920's to find the era when running boards looked stylish. They looked a bit dated in the 30's. Talking about cars now, not shoes! But if the "shoe" fits...


Makes one wonder if the name of these wing-tips will develop another nick name in the future.
In Hawaii they could probably get away with a name like "surf-board" wing-tips.

LeatherSoul could corner a new market with a new name for a classic product.:icon_smile_big:

Surfers with wing-tips.


----------



## 127.72 MHz

I hesitate to say a market has been "Cornered," but in terms of offering new and unusual Alden Special Editions I think Leather Soul has been there for the past few years.

I too love heavy wings. Check out Leather Soul's Scotch Grain and #8 Shell Heavy Wings in Alden's crepe sole. One misconception I had was equating the crepe soles I remember on desert boots back in the day with Alden's version.

The old school crepe soles on desert boots are comfortable but wear quickly. Although I personally can't think of Alden's crepe sole in a dress situation or for that matter with a suit. (just my own personal preference. ) They are so cool with Khaki's, cords, and jeans.

I can't find another any other heavy wings like LeatherSoul's. 

Tom Park has made such a wide range of special edition Aldens the Heavy Wings I speak of are now on the second page of Leather Soul's web site. (a few pages further in you can see Leather Soul's Alpine Grain Heavy Wings which are favorites in my regular rotation)

I love Wings,

Best wishes,

Bill Woodward
Portland, Oregon


----------



## Doctor Damage

Has anyone else noticed that the AE MacNeil is not included in the AE Spring 2009 catalogue? Hopefully they just ran out of page space...


----------



## Crownship

I didn't see it in my catalog so I assumed they discontinued the MacNeil.
But they still have it listed in burgundy shell and black calf on their website.

They probably did run out of page space. Or forgot.









Allen Edmonds 'MacNeil'
black shell cordovan


----------



## mcarthur

hopefully our forum member the president of ae will respond to this issue


----------



## Doctor Damage

Crownship said:


> I didn't see it in my catalog so I assumed they discontinued the MacNeil. But they still have it listed in burgundy shell and black calf on their website.


Maybe it will be a "website only" model for the future, like the McGraw loafer. I can't imagine they would actually kill the MacNeil since it must sell well, or at least steadily.


----------



## Doctor Damage

AE Macneil in brown suede with lug soles.

https://img14.imageshack.us/i/bg4ehkq2kkgrhqihdiesjup.jpg/https://img14.imageshack.us/i/bg4dwrw2kkgrhqiheeslfg5.jpg/https://img163.imageshack.us/i/bg4ephwbwkkgrhqqhc4eslm.jpg/


----------



## srivats

^ Those are very nice. Where did you buy them?


----------



## PeterSawatzky

Those suede longwings are lovely, but aren't the suede upper (nice weather) and lug sole (bad weather) at odds? Maybe I'm missing something.


----------



## Doctor Damage

srivats said:


> Those are very nice. Where did you buy them?


Spotted on ebay Germany - possibly a Europe only model? I don't own these.


PeterSawatzky said:


> Those suede longwings are lovely, but aren't the suede upper (nice weather) and lug sole (bad weather) at odds? Maybe I'm missing something.


That's one way of looking at the combination, but here's another:
suede = casual
lug sole = casual


----------



## Green3

At the risk of threadjacking, I have had my eye on the AE Cambridge. Not a longwing, but a suede brogue with a double sole.


----------



## gman-17

Crownship said:


> I didn't see it in my catalog so I assumed they discontinued the MacNeil.
> But they still have it listed in burgundy shell and black calf on their website.
> 
> They probably did run out of page space. Or forgot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allen Edmonds 'MacNeil'
> black shell cordovan


Gents,

I just had a quick e-mail exchange with Paul Grangaard re: logistics for an upcoming trip to PW. I have good news for you:

The MacNeil is not being cancelled, in fact it is being expanded in 2010. All you Mac fans can breathe not only a sigh of relief, but get ready for some new leather choices. (And hopefully additional color choices.)


----------



## NoVaguy

gman-17 said:


> Gents,
> 
> I just had a quick e-mail exchange with Paul Grangaard re: logistics for an upcoming trip to PW. I have good news for you:
> 
> The MacNeil is not being cancelled, in fact it is being expanded in 2010. All you Mac fans can breathe not only a sigh of relief, but get ready for some new leather choices. (And hopefully additional color choices.)


Yeah, that makes sense. Shoes like the Leeds and MacNeil fit in well with the Americana/American Inspired shoe wave that is going through a lot of retailers (Ducky Brown and Florsheim, J.Crew and Red Wing, Lands End and Allen Edmonds) these days, and discontinuing them at the peak makes little sense.

Don't forget, if you look at LE Canvas site, the Leeds and MacNeil have been expanded to dark brown calf.


----------



## stuman

Gents,

I have a pair of black shell cordovan MacNeils (size 8E) - mint condition. They're just too big for me. Any interest?


----------



## Got Shell?

AE needs to offer the MacNeil in some alternative shell colors. It would be awesome to see some competition for Alden. How about a dark brown shell MacNeil or something between whiskey and ravello - brandy?


----------



## Green3

NoVaguy said:


> Yeah, that makes sense. Shoes like the Leeds and MacNeil fit in well with the Americana/American Inspired shoe wave that is going through a lot of retailers (Ducky Brown and Florsheim, J.Crew and Red Wing, Lands End and Allen Edmonds) these days, and discontinuing them at the peak makes little sense.
> 
> Don't forget, if you look at LE Canvas site, the Leeds and MacNeil have been expanded to dark brown calf.


If only they were eee-xpanded in width as well ...


----------



## gman-17

Got Shell? said:


> AE needs to offer the MacNeil in some alternative shell colors. It would be awesome to see some competition for Alden. How about a dark brown shell MacNeil or something between whiskey and ravello - brandy?


I am going to raise this point with Paul and Jim. I think Jim is very open to it. Paul is truly interested in the "voice of the customer." I think he sees AAAC as an opportunity to connect with his hometown audience. Even the criticism serves a purpose.


----------



## Doctor Damage

gman-17 said:


> Got Shell? said:
> 
> 
> 
> AE needs to offer the MacNeil in some alternative shell colors. It would be awesome to see some competition for Alden. How about a dark brown shell MacNeil or something between whiskey and ravello - brandy?
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to raise this point with Paul and Jim. I think Jim is very open to it. Paul is truly interested in the "voice of the customer." I think he sees AAAC as an opportunity to connect with his hometown audience. Even the criticism serves a purpose.
Click to expand...

Get him to make the MacNeil in a triple sole.

Dack's up here in Canada used to make triple sole brogues back in the 1980s, but I was too young and by the time I started buying proper footwear those shoes were long discontinued. I saw a pair in a thrift store last summer and the soles were about 1" thick.


----------



## ds23pallas

Doctor Damage said:


> Get him to make the MacNeil in a triple sole.
> 
> Dack's up here in Canada used to make triple sole brogues back in the 1980s, but I was too young and by the time I started buying proper footwear those shoes were long discontinued. I saw a pair in a thrift store last summer and the soles were about 1" thick.


DD,

A colleague of mine has a pair. He gets them re-soled at Dack's whenever required. He wears them every day and keeps them well polished.

Too bad that Dack's has recently filed for bankruptcy. 175 years of shoe selling comes to an end.


----------



## Doctor Damage

ds23pallas said:


> A colleague of mine has a pair. He gets them re-soled at Dack's whenever required. He wears them every day and keeps them well polished.
> 
> Too bad that Dack's has recently filed for bankruptcy. 175 years of shoe selling comes to an end.


Jeez, I didn't know that. I stopped into their Yonge Street store last week and their offerings had reached a new low for variety. And Ivor was gone. And Norman looked haunted. Now I know why. Shame. My grandfather and father both wore Dack's for decades. The factory in Nova Scotia used to make Church's and the Hartt RCMP boots, before it was shut down. I saw some NOS Dack's in a local store a year ago and they hurt my eyes: the quality of the 1980s and early 1990s models was better than anything Alden makes today.

I guess this means Church's won't be available in Canada either. Hole in the market? Opportunity for an online Canadian seller for fine shoes? Probably not, as 18% duty on shoes, plus 13% taxes, is a definite mood killer...


----------



## gman-17

Doctor Damage said:


> Get him to make the MacNeil in a triple sole.
> 
> Dack's up here in Canada used to make triple sole brogues back in the 1980s, but I was too young and by the time I started buying proper footwear those shoes were long discontinued. I saw a pair in a thrift store last summer and the soles were about 1" thick.


Doc,

I will discuss with the AE team tomorrow if a triple sole can be done.

G


----------



## Green3

Terrible news about Dack's, but not surprising. The fact that they never got a decent website up and running told me about how much vision they had.

I have some Made in Canada Dufferins and cap toes and they are both great.


----------



## rwaldron

My foot is moderately wide at the ball, but it doesn't get any narrower as you move back toward the ankle, and it is widest, in fact, about an inch toward my ankle of the ball of my foot. Too many times, I've tried shoes that were very tight around my instep and loose at the heel and ball. Thus, I was wondering if anyone could tell me which of these two shoes would fit better in that part of the shoe.


----------



## blue suede shoes

rwaldron said:


> My foot is moderately wide at the ball, but it doesn't get any narrower as you move back toward the ankle, and it is widest, in fact, about an inch toward my ankle of the ball of my foot. Too many times, I've tried shoes that were very tight around my instep and loose at the heel and ball. Thus, I was wondering if anyone could tell me which of these two shoes would fit better in that part of the shoe.


In the AE offerings, try the MacNeil or the Sanford, both on the same last. In the Alden lineup, try the modified last. It is rather hard to find because it is a part of Alden's "foot balance" collection.


----------



## rwaldron

blue suede shoes said:


> In the AE offerings, try the MacNeil or the Sanford, both on the same last. In the Alden lineup, try the modified last. It is rather hard to find because it is a part of Alden's "foot balance" collection.


Would this imply that the Macneil is more likely to fit my foot than the 975? Also, the Sanford is not a longwing. Also, isn't the modified last for high arches, which are typically narrower?


----------



## Ensiferous

rwaldron said:


> Would this imply that the Macneil is more likely to fit my foot than the 975?


That you would have to verify in a personal fitting, but I too have a problem with wider shoes which offer a proper fit across the forefoot, but have my heel swimming in the heel pocket. The MacNeil fits me better in that regard, even though I strongly prefer the 975 aesthetically. Your eyes will lose an argument with your feet every time.


----------



## rwaldron

Ensiferous said:


> That you would have to verify in a personal fitting, but I too have a problem with wider shoes which offer a proper fit across the forefoot, but have my heel swimming in the heel pocket. The MacNeil fits me better in that regard, even though I strongly prefer the 975 aesthetically. Your eyes will lose an argument with your feet every time.


Also, a shoe that looks good in the store, but doesn't fit, doesn't look good on your feet.


----------



## Watchman

So what was the final consensus on this.....it seems from reading the posts that it is a..."To each his own" kind of thing.

It also seems that the Macneil had a greater following over the 975, which I find interesting.


----------



## dks202

Just saw this for the first time. I owned both and sold them both, they didn't work for me. The Aldens were very heavy, literally. I got less than $100 on eBay for them, Alden was shell #8 too, very disappointed.


----------



## sacafotos

The Continental Fop said:


> Full disclosure: With nine pairs and counting, I am an Alden guy through and through, particularly the shells. I also own four pairs of AEs and like them a lot, but I feel they are a distinct step down in quality, workmanship, and overall coolness compared with my Aldens.
> 
> With one exception: my color 8 shell MacNeil longwings, which, as it happens, I'm wearing at the moment. Hands-down my favorite AEs. Never wear them with a suit, though -- jeans and odd trousers only. The fit is extraordinary, the reddish oxblood color of the shell is perfection, and the thick double sole seems impervious to whatever elements the Northeast can dish out. Alden's LHS remains my favorite jean shoe, but the MacNeils are a close second.
> 
> I tried on both Alden's and AEs longwings in shell when I was looking for a pair, but felt the Aldens were too roomy in the toe box when sized correctly, too tight when sized 1/2 down. I also prefer the narrower profile of the MacNeil, at least on my feet and with jeans/khakis etc. I may get stoned for saying this, but I thought the Aldens looked a bit goofy on me -- to my eyes, the fuller, more rounded toe seems even moreso with all that brogue throwing down.
> 
> Both are beautiful shoes, but I prefer the AEs. Like all good shells, they get better and better and require very little maintenance to look amazing. I came late to the longwing party having dismissed the genre as an old man's shoe, but I am definitely making up for lost time -- I spend more time in my MacNeils than my other 3 prs of AEs combined.


Love this. Thanks. Eyeing the Macneils. Wish AE used different shell colors other than burgundy and black.

How do you guys feel about having long wings AND a wingtip boot like the dalton? Too much overlap?

I was eyeing the Alden LWB in Ravello shell, but it's impossible to find. I have two Color 8 boots (Dalton, Indy with commando sole) so was hoping to expand my shell color gamut.

Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder. -- Rumi

Jacket: 36S/38S. 
Shoes: 7.5EE-8.5D.


----------



## 127.72 MHz

^^ Actually Allen Edmonds has used several different colors for their shell offerings. (You'll need to follow the AE website for their "webgems" offerings that occasionally offer unique colors of shell shoes.)

I have so many pairs of Allen Edmonds that I can't keep track anymore. None the less, in this case I like the shape of the Alden 975 last slightly better than the McNeil last. The McNeil past is a bit too "pointy," especially when it's compared to the 975 Alden side by side.

As far as Aldens being offered in unique shades of shell, you need to begin following Tom Park's LeatherSoul website. If you know your size in Alden lasts, (and *PLEASE*, be sure you know your size in a given Alden last because you are likely to be very disappointed if you just assume that the 975 will be like other shoes you've owned)

Anyway, Tom will have special order Aldens being made up on and off throughout the year and you can get on the list to have a pair made.

Good luck.


----------



## bd79cc

My favorite shell longwing came to me strictly though fit. I like both the almost-oppressive weight and huge volume of the Alden and the sleekness and solidity of the the AE's. But it's the big wide toe of the Aldens that do it for me. It's not that I feel cramped in the AE's: much more that I have so much more room to wriggle my toes in the Aldens. And I was reminded on a trip to the yoga-and-mushrooms part of Venice CA (The Stronghold, which carries lots of Alden) that I DON'T have to drop 1/2 a size with the Barrie last.

Keep in mind that your feet change (_i.e.,_ they spread out and get bigger) with advancing age. What works today may not work five, ten, or twenty years from now!


----------



## sacafotos

Thanks! I have followed LSW for a while, also on their Instagram. I follow them and Leffot, which I finally visited in December while vacationing in NYC.

I have color 8 Indys that I love and a pair of Alden x Context Roy boots that are super versatile. But my Dalton burgundy shells are my prized possessions.

If AE brought back their walnut shell, I'd be in heaven. I've only seen the Strand in a brown "caramel" esque shell. Pretty, but not for me.

Thanks again. 


Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder. -- Rumi

Jacket: 36S/38S. 
Shoes: 7.5EE-8.5D.


----------



## maximar

I owned almost all solid colored Macneils, except for the brown pebble grain, in multiple sizes. I had both calf and shell. I also had AE for BB. I never found the right size. I lost so much money in my pursuit. With Alden LWBs, I have them in two sizes (8.5e & 9D) and the fit is spot on. I have color 8, black shell, black calf, and tobacco calf. 
Macneils are much lighter on the feet and of course on my wallet but they just don't fit right. They are too tight on the toe. Often I feel that AE should reward me for forcing myself to be a fan of Macneils. I'm am a fan who does not own a single pair anymore. Maybe one day when they make it on a different last.


----------



## Steve Smith

This question makes me think of another:
Q. When Superman and The Flash have a footrace, who wins?
A. Chuck Norris.

Q. Which is the best longwing, AE McNeil or Alden 975?
A. Vintage Florsheim.


----------



## 127.72 MHz

^^ While I have more pairs of Allen Edmonds than any other shoe I admit to likely the 975, for the shape of the last, better than the McNeil. 

Just about the time it was announced that Florsheim would move production to India I panicked and called all over the country and ended up getting in touch with someone from Florsheim corporate. They could not have been more accommodating, they found me a new pair from a defunct dealer in Dallas. He said the box had some water damage but that the shoes were brand new. I wanted Oxblood but all he could find me was black calf. (The Florsheims are by far my favorite long wings and I long for a burgundy/Oxblood pair of Florsheim Imperials in 10.5C)

I purchased a new pair of Florsheim Imperials that were made in India. I'm told that the Florsheim Imperials that are made in India are made on the exact same machinery that used to make the USA made versions yet the leather is just not the same. The Indian made versions are inferior in every way to the USA made Imperials.

So sad that once manufacturing goes global they almost never see the error of their ways and return.


----------



## tigerpac

^I'm just starting to read about a recent 'movement' reevaluating some of the globalization of manufacturing. One 'expert' in the field did a study and concluded that up to 60% of the moved manufacturers would have done better staying at home. Take that for what it is, a single opinion, and it covered all different types of manufacturing... but its a start!


----------



## momsdoc

You want a LWB, I have lost track of he color. if  you want Cordovan. I just special ordered at no extra charge the MacNeil with double sole in merlot. You can customize the welt color and the edge dressing. If the 7 last is holding you up then do what I did. Call Allison at AS. they are making me the melot Macneil in a five last, and she indicated other lats are possible. I see no reason you cannot order the last you want, as well as double sole. the cordovan is available, and In my mind is nicer shape than the Alden. Allison says the 5 last while longer than The 7 tapers back slower giving more toe room. They will allow any customization for free, including the combo v-tread sole. I think you'll get a sleeker gunboat with the color and fit you want. I find the Alden/ #8 too bulky looking in the toe Call her and your problems will be solve. AAAC gets customization for free. You have nothing to lose.


----------



## Doctor Damage

127.72 MHz said:


> I purchased a new pair of Florsheim Imperials that were made in India. I'm told that the Florsheim Imperials that are made in India are made on the exact same machinery that used to make the USA made versions yet the leather is just not the same. The Indian made versions are inferior in every way to the USA made Imperials.


That's ironic since great quality leathers _can_ be sourced in India. The family of one of my closest friends owns and operates tanneries and leather goods factors in India and she has shown me stuff they've made and it's great quality. So obviously Florsheim made a decision to use cheap leather.


----------



## Jimmy Balantyne

*Beauty is in the eye of...*



Watchman said:


> So what was the final consensus on this.....it seems from reading the posts that it is a..."To each his own" kind of thing.
> 
> It also seems that the Macneil had a greater following over the 975, which I find interesting.


I've got both and the Alden's a better fit- for me. However, I prefer the look and shape of the AE.


----------



## crispyfresh

The Macneils are a waay better buy. I hope Allen Edmonds continue to make them...


----------

