# Saphir...Is it Really Better?



## Thewaxmania (Feb 20, 2008)

Ok, so I need some educating. I'm a savvy gent. I own about 20 pairs of quality shoes of varying colors. I've been taking a little vacation from the forums for the past few years and now Saphir is everywhere and its dominating the discussions. I'm now overwhelmed. My first question is, is it really that much better than the little cans of Meltonian I buy at the cobblers? Especially if I'm not spending 3 hours polishing each pair of shoes until I can see into the future in the reflection. I don't even like that super shiny style polishing, it makes me feel like I'm trying to hard. Not me. I typically use the Meltonian leather lotion and cream polish and then I use Lincoln Stain Wax on the areas that get a lot of wear and don't crease. I alternate, the usual cycle. I'm very good to my shoes and they last a long time. I probably need to know what products are what, because I started looking them up and there are FAR too many variations and I haven't been able to decipher them yet. Also, its like $20 for a pot of polish. I need to know more. Is it a better conditioning product, does it soak in better, is the color more powerful, will it make me walk faster? These are the things I don't know.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

The easy answer is YES. Saphir is that much better.

Although, Meltonian and particularly Lincoln are good as well.

I use an "All-Saphir" care regimen with remarkable results.

The thing with Saphir is that there is none of that petroleum smell. The stuff literally smells like something you would put on your own skin. Amazing really.

This is my end all source for all things Saphir:

https://www.hangerproject.com/shoe-care/brand/saphir.html

Any other questions I recommend you call them up. You can even speak with Kirby directly.

Thanks!


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## Thewaxmania (Feb 20, 2008)

Watchman said:


> The easy answer is YES. Saphir is that much better.
> 
> Although, Meltonian and particularly Lincoln are good as well.
> 
> ...


Great! Thanks! Would it just be a regimen of the Renovateur and Pommadier?


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

If you are set on actually transferring everything over to all Saphir then these steps:

1. Saphir Renomat
2. Saphir Renovateur
3. ...Pommadier Cream
4. ...Pate De Luxe Wax

Actually for all the stuff above you are looking at around 65 USD and the first 2 are interchangeable with ANY shade.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Renomat is only used to strip the shoes once a year or so. After that you should just do steps 2,3 and 4 as needed.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

As good as Saphir is, I just tried GlenKaren conditioner and polish in the last month and they're incredible. Not a hint of shoe polish smell-- as compared with Saphir which smells like really nice shoe polish. In particular, the conditioner is quite the miracle worker.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Watchman doesn't do the product justice. Yes, it really is that good.



Watchman said:


> The easy answer is YES. Saphir is that much better.
> 
> Although, Meltonian and particularly Lincoln are good as well.
> 
> ...


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

So it smells somewhat better than normal products. Seeing how I like the standard polish aroma, and have no complaints, I suspect my answer is still "who cares?"


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

Watchman said:


> The thing with Saphir is that there is none of that petroleum smell. The stuff literally smells like something you would put on your own skin. Amazing really.


Maybe I ended up with some knock-off Saphir, because mine spells quite terpentine-y. Regardless, the results seem amazing and better than the AE cream polish I was using, which wasn't bad at all. Perhaps it's all psychological...


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

Tempest said:


> "who cares?"


Apparently everyone else who has replied in this thread.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

With what you have invested in quality shoes, it's worth spending the money to build up a decent selection of premium shoe care products.


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## Thewaxmania (Feb 20, 2008)

RogerP said:


> With what you have invested in quality shoes, it's worth spending the money to build up a decent selection of premium shoe care products.


I don't disagree. But I wouldn't consider the kit I have now to be of poor quality. I think I'll give Saphir a go.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Lincoln and Angelus are particularly good if you so choose.

Angelus may even be in the same ballpark as Saphir, but for a lower price.

I could tell the most difference when I switched over to an All Saphir regimen.

That is to say when all the products were used in conjunction with one another, that I found, yielded the best results.

Here is but one recent example. Mind you this is what I have learned to achieve on shell cordovan of all things:



Mirror shine on whiskey shell cordovan...


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

And one more:


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## espressocycle (Apr 14, 2014)

Having just shelled out $75 for a brush, Renomat, renovateur and untinted wax, I'm wondering the same thing. Since I can't afford to buy multiple pots of tinted polish to match my shoes, I'll generally be using Allen Edmonds shoe cream in the third step. I think the only one you absolutely need is Renomat as I don't know if a comparable product for removing buildup safely. There are other great products to condition the leather and other polish and wax will do a great job.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

espressocycle said:


> Having just shelled out $75 for a brush, Renomat, renovateur and untinted wax, I'm wondering the same thing. Since I can't afford to buy multiple pots of tinted polish to match my shoes, I'll generally be using Allen Edmonds shoe cream in the third step. I think the only one you absolutely need is Renomat as I don't know if a comparable product for removing buildup safely. There are other great products to condition the leather and other polish and wax will do a great job.


That is really all you need. The stuff goes a long way.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Watchman said:


> That is really all you need. The stuff goes a long way.


I'm in total awe. How long does it take to achieve that mirror shine? Completely by hand or do you use an electric buffer?


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Mostly by hand, a method I was taught by Skip Horween that he said he learned by the late great bespoke shoemaker Stephano Bemer.

And yes, I have an electric buffer that saves my wrists and hands some stress. An 80/20 ratio. With the larger percentage being done by hand.

Perhaps someday I would make a video. But, I would like to have a few more years of practice beforehand.

Thanks.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Also, the full treatment shine includes sitting overnight, with about another 3 hours of work on top of that.

i will say this, the whole trick with cordovan is very thin, light even coats. Approximately 1/4th wax of what you would use for calf.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

I used Meltonian for many years with quite satisfactory results. I like the way the soft and somewhat transparent look of Meltonian allows the character of the leather to show. 

I learned of Saphir on Ask Andy and have found that it results in a denser and less transparent uniform coverage than Meltonian. A couple of the Saphir colors, Cognac and Hermes Red, particulary the Hermes Red, are very pretty. The Saphir Cognac is a bit darker than Meltonian's Cognac.

I now use both brands, depending on circumstances. I like the tupentine smell of Saphir. I do sometimes use the renovateur. I have used other brands of cream polish and have not found them to be as satisfactory as Meltonian and Saphir. I occasionally use Saphir neutral wax. I do not use paste wax polish, such as Kiwi.

If you search the Ask Andy archives you will find quite a large body of shoe polishing commentary.

I hope this is useful.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Watchman said:


> Mostly by hand, a method I was taught by Skip Horween that he said he learned by the late great bespoke shoemaker Stephano Bemer.
> 
> And yes, I have an electric buffer that saves my wrists and hands some stress. An 80/20 ratio. With the larger percentage being done by hand.
> 
> ...


I think a video of your process would be fascinating and instructive. I hope you don't wait years to make it.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

You must have arms that invite accusations of steroid use.



Watchman said:


> Mostly by hand, a method I was taught by Skip Horween that he said he learned by the late great bespoke shoemaker Stephano Bemer.
> 
> And yes, I have an electric buffer that saves my wrists and hands some stress. An 80/20 ratio. With the larger percentage being done by hand.
> 
> ...


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## Thewaxmania (Feb 20, 2008)

This is all very good. Thank you. I think I will try the Renomat, because that's something I don't currently have a facsimile of in my stash. That seems like it would be very helpful in the system. I also use Angelus products with great success. I don't have any scientific evidence to back this up, but I find that the Lincoln and Angelus paste wax polish products are far less waxy than Kiwi or other similar brands. They're softer and seem to have a solvent in them that creates a soft cream effect. I'd say halfway between a cream polish and a wax. Almost like beeswax furniture polish tends to be. Its emulsified with solvents and orange oils and its got the final properties of a wax but with a smother, creamer application.

Thanks for all the help. Like I said, I'm not going to spend 3-hours polishing a pair of shoes, although I respect the heck out of the accomplishments of those guys who do. I just don't dig that look.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

I think that oftentimes the chaps on this dear forum feel like the Watchman is made of $$$. I have worked very hard to get my shoes and the products that care for them. And there is no money tree in my back yard.

Furthermore, what I have done is built a solid care kit over a period of several years. One week I order Renomat. The next Renovateur. And then polishes etc. I stack up Amazon points to procure this stuff and also utilize coupons.

IMO Angelus and Lincoln both are very good. I just feel like what makes Saphir so special is their use of natural oils and beeswax. That is really the telltale sign of a premium care product.

Leather is skin. Would you want to smear a product on your skin if it smelled like it would run your car?

Not if I don't have to.

I also use Venetian Shoe Cream and Leather Honey with great success.

If you are looking for a more budget friendly care regimen, I can provide that for you as well. Kiwi is ok. Uncle Mac uses that on his shell if I recall.

The only reason I wielded the Saphir Sword is because you asked me too.

Thanks.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I don't think that you should be defensive at all. Mac advocates water (I'm not sure that I've heard him preach Kiwi, but I could be mistaken). The key, as your results show, is thinking about what it is that you are trying to accomplish, dedicating some time and effort and research into accomplishing the mission and spending what it takes to get there. That goes for shoes or playing the ponies or buying cars. I resisted Saphir Renovateur for a long time based on cost. Once I broke down and bought some, I felt like an idiot for having been a penny pincher. Sure, I might have been able to achieve similar results with a lot more time and elbow grease, but I am lazy. I can throw a bit of Saphir on a pair of tired-looking shoes and they look fabulous within minutes. I have not achieved the same results as you, but I haven't worked as hard, either. It's the work, not the coin, that counts. I'd be busting-buttons proud if my shoes looked like yours.



Watchman said:


> I think that oftentimes the chaps on this dear forum feel like the Watchman is made of $$$. I have worked very hard to get my shoes and the products that care for them. And there is no money tree in my back yard.
> 
> Furthermore, what I have done is built a solid care kit over a period of several years. One week I order Renomat. The next Renovateur. And then polishes etc. I stack up Amazon points to procure this stuff and also utilize coupons.
> 
> ...


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> I don't think that you should be defensive at all. Mac advocates water (I'm not sure that I've heard him preach Kiwi, but I could be mistaken). The key, as your results show, is thinking about what it is that you are trying to accomplish, dedicating some time and effort and research into accomplishing the mission and spending what it takes to get there. That goes for shoes or playing the ponies or buying cars. I resisted Saphir Renovateur for a long time based on cost. Once I broke down and bought some, I felt like an idiot for having been a penny pincher. Sure, I might have been able to achieve similar results with a lot more time and elbow grease, but I am lazy. I can throw a bit of Saphir on a pair of tired-looking shoes and they look fabulous within minutes. I have not achieved the same results as you, but I haven't worked as hard, either. It's the work, not the coin, that counts. I'd be busting-buttons proud if my shoes looked like yours.


Thank You Very Much Sir.

And, I do not want the tone of my post to be defensive, and, I apologize if it has been so.

Of this I am certain, the Alden Color 8 paste wax is re-branded Kiwi.

I too have achieved great results with Saphir products. I read recently where they are now recommending that you dilute the Renovateur with the Universal Cream polish. Makes it less strong and it goes lots further that way.

That makes sense because the UCP is quite a bit cheaper for more product.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Watchman said:


> I think that oftentimes the chaps on this dear forum feel like the Watchman is made of $$$. I have worked very hard to get my shoes and the products that care for them. And there is no money tree in my back yard.
> 
> Furthermore, what I have done is built a solid care kit over a period of several years.....


Recalling, as I do, a little of your personal history that you were kind enough to share with us a while back then you deserve to be incredibly proud of your achievements and acquisitions my friend. :thumbs-up:

Whilst the mirror shine is being discussed, here is an example of a 100% hand achieved mirror shine via kiwi wax, warm water and cotton wool with a large dash of patience. Observe your old Uncle Shaver holding up a camera reflected on the toecap.

The Shoe Shine Showdown is still open to all comers: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?121969-Shaver-s-Shoe-Shine-Showdown-%26%238207%3B


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## bmg102 (May 25, 2014)

I tried out Saphir wax polish for the first time yesterday on a couple pairs of shoes I have. I liked it - easy to work with and brought out a good shine. I thought it was worth the price premium over other products I have used.


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## TheQue (May 29, 2013)

bmg102 said:


> I tried out Saphir wax polish for the first time yesterday on a couple pairs of shoes I have. I liked it - easy to work with and brought out a good shine. I thought it was worth the price premium over other products I have used.


Could you post a link to the specific product you used on your strands?


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

bmg102 said:


> I tried out Saphir wax polish for the first time yesterday on a couple pairs of shoes I have. I liked it - easy to work with and brought out a good shine. I thought it was worth the price premium over other products I have used.


That looks really nice. Good shine!


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Nice shine work gents!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Saphir is certainly an excellent product, as are the Meltonian and many of the "brand specific" shoe care options (and over the years I think I have used them all), but who among us has ever been let down by those tried and tested Kiwi products. They are comparatively inexpensive and they do what we purchased them to do! What more can be asked of such purchases?


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

eagle2250 said:


> Saphir is certainly an excellent product, as are the Meltonian and many of the "brand specific" shoe care options (and over the years I think I have used them all), but who among us has ever been let down by those tried and tested Kiwi products. They are comparatively inexpensive and they do what we purchased them to do! What more can be asked of such purchases?


.

Yes. I have used Kiwi and nothing else on everything from jump boots to Aldens and have no plans to change.


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

Does Nick Horween have any position on Saphir products?


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

tigerpac said:


> Does Nick Horween have any position on Saphir products?


I don't know about Nick, but I have spoke to Skip, (Dad) about this very thing.

When I asked about the age old conundrum of Renovateur V.S. VSC, Skip said that VSC was just as good and cheaper. But, he did say that both products have strong points. He said Renovateur was able to get down into broguing better and so forth.

When I asked about wax polishes, there was no hesitation about Saphir. He did indeed recommend Saphir Wax Polish without reservation.

This was all in the context of shell cordovan of course.


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## bmg102 (May 25, 2014)

TheQue said:


> Could you post a link to the specific product you used on your strands?


Sure, I first used Allen Edmonds cleaner/conditioner, followed by their Walnut Premium Polish, and then finished with Saphir Pate de Luxe Wax Light Brown #03. Here is a link:

https://www.hangerproject.com/saphir-wax-shoe-polish-50-ml.html


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## Thewaxmania (Feb 20, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Saphir is certainly an excellent product, as are the Meltonian and many of the "brand specific" shoe care options (and over the years I think I have used them all), but who among us has ever been let down by those tried and tested Kiwi products. They are comparatively inexpensive and they do what we purchased them to do! What more can be asked of such purchases?


I think that's absolutely valid. I used Kiwi, and still do occasionally, because its readily available and its particularly "waxy", which is good for the shoes and boots I assume will get wet. As far as price goes, I feel there are better deals out there, albeit, marginally so. We're talking about shoe polish that costs between $2 and $5, so its not like there's a huge delta, but still. I just bought a bunch of Angelus products from their factory direct service and the 3oz tins of wax were only $3.52 and I picked up some additional colors of Lincoln Stain Wax from Duffy's Supply (online) for $3.19 for a 3oz tin. Incidentally they have the same Angelus products for $2.29/tin, which I didn't know at the time of the order. Even with shipping, it was worth it. They are a good source for bulk laces, Star brushes, shoe trees and care supplies. I just happened upon them via a google search. Anyway, the small tins of Kiwi (1.125 oz) at the local shop are $4.00. Either way, its not a deal-breaker cost-wise, but I also like to have Meltonian creams to go with the colors I have too. Those are inexpensive too at around $1.79-$3.00. With prices like that, I've been able to try a lot of different products and I honestly haven't been let down by any of them. I DO find Kiwi builds up a little more and tends to crack more easily, but its not something I fuss too much about.

The way I look at it is this. I own...maybe 20 pairs of good shoes. All bought on sale or whatnot, I'm not a Rockefeller. That means I can wear a different pair each day of the work week without repeat, for one month. That also means I have the task, and great pleasure, of cleaning and polishing 4-5 pairs of shoes weekly. I genuinely look forward to the slow Friday night or Sunday evening when I get to sit and tend to my shoes. It might sound silly, but its one of the more enjoyable tasks in my life. Its just me, my kit, and my shoes. I'll often watch a good English panel show at the same time. So, my shoes don't get to the point of getting rough or dirty or the point at which they need reviving. I keep them tidy enough during the month that I don't need to spend tons of time bringing them back to life. Once or twice a year I strip and clean, condition, and re-polish, but more so to remove wax buildup than anything else. I think its more important to have a system that works for oneself more than anything else. I'm happy with my kit full of Meltonian, Angelus, Lincoln, and yes, sometimes Kiwi. I'm still interested in the Reno Mat for those yearly overhauls, so I might grab some of that soon.


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