# J. Press Oxford with pocket flap... Your thoughts please



## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

I am considering taking advantage of the 25% off sale @ J. Press and finally acquiring an Oxford (blue) with the pocket flap. I have never worn a shirt with a pocket flap so I'm not sure how much wear it will receive. Then again I could always wear it under a Shetland if there is not much need for the flap pocket.

Is this just a novelty or a trad tradition?

https://www.jpressonline.com/shirts_solid_detail.php?id=500BLU


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

The Press flap-pocket OCBD has been a staple of Trad dressing for at least the past 50 to 60 years - at least since the days of Fenn-Feinstein. The current shirts are excellent, and I highly recommend buying one or more during the sale.

It went like this: Fenn-Feinstein, no pocket; Brooks, large open pocket; Press, flap-pocket with button closure.

I do have a personal preference for the Brooks must-iron OCBD. I like the slightly looser fit and, since I often carry pens, pencils, rulers, scales, notepads, pocket screwdrivers, and/or erasers, also the large open pocket.


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## Beefeater (Jun 2, 2007)

Classic look. Can't go wrong.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

I love the J. Press OCBD with flap pocket. As others have said, it is most assuredly a classic. So much so, in fact, that at Mercer you can order a shirt with a "J. Press flap pocket."


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

*promo code*

What's the promo code???


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Because traditional men's style has hinged on minutiae -- belt or not belt with Levi's 501, crease or no crease on khakis -- the flap pocket was actually all the rage at a moment in the early '60s. Since then it's been an option at J Press and, to answer the initial post, one that I think looks best on a young person. It's classic, as stated above, but also youthful. Think of it as the true trad style for a young man, as opposed to the faux trad discussed at length in the J Press/Urban Outfitters merger thread.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I've got a couple: good shirt, seem to easily outlast the Brooks supima though not as soft: only problem is that the flap is a nuisance. Really like their Royal Oxford, probably also on sale now.


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

dks202 said:


> What's the promo code???


PSNOV10


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

bd79cc said:


> It went like this: Fenn-Feinstein, no pocket; Brooks, large open pocket; Press, flap-pocket with button closure.


At some point didn't the Brooks shirt not have a pocket?


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I love the flap. Love love.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

Brio1 said:


> I am considering taking advantage of the 25% off sale @ J. Press and finally acquiring an Oxford (blue) with the pocket flap. I have never worn a shirt with a pocket flap so I'm not sure how much wear it will receive. Then again I could always wear it under a Shetland if there is not much need for the flap pocket.
> 
> Is this just a novelty or a trad tradition?
> 
> https://www.jpressonline.com/shirts_solid_detail.php?id=500BLU


Brio1, come on....

You always seem to be the guy that has to do another re-tread of a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum. Use the search function, there are lots of discussions about the flap pocket...

& yes, buy the shirt. They are great, you'll love them.


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

EastVillageTrad said:


> Brio1, come on....
> 
> You always seem to be the guy that has to do another re-tread of a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum. Use the search function, there are lots of discussions about the flap pocket...
> 
> & yes, buy the shirt. They are great, you'll love them.


What hasn't been discussed ad nauseum around here?


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

The Rambler said:


> I've got a couple: good shirt, seem to easily outlast the Brooks supima though not as soft: only problem is that the flap is a nuisance. Really like their Royal Oxford, probably also on sale now.


What is the difference between the Oxford and Royal Oxford other than the Royal is less money? Thanks.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

EastVillageTrad said:


> Brio1, come on....
> 
> You always seem to be the guy that has to do another re-tread of a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum. Use the search function, there are lots of discussions about the flap pocket...
> 
> & yes, buy the shirt. They are great, you'll love them.


You, sir, need to learn to relax. You are awfully uptight for a man that has read Thoreau. I most certainly did do a search, thank you.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Brio1 said:


> What is the difference between the Oxford and Royal Oxford other than the Royal is less money? Thanks.


Must check that out - usually they're more: it's a different cloth, woven with, I think, a double thread in one direction: it gives a more open, oxfordy look, but is very soft. No flap, though.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Brio1 said:


> You, sir, need to learn to relax. You are awfully uptight for a man that has read Thoreau.


Funny!


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

hmm, no blue, must be phasing them out. They really did use to be more expensive than their regular oxford, which has gone up since I last checked.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

The Rambler said:


> Must check that out - usually they're more: it's a different cloth, woven with, I think, a double thread in one direction: it gives a more open, oxfordy look, but is very soft. No flap, though.


I am wearing a royal oxford from Mercer (which has become one of my favorites). You are correct on both counts. It does have more of a open look to the fabric and has a soft, almost silk-like, feel to the fabric. I will be ordering another with my next Mercer order.


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

To take a contrarian view, I actually do not care for them. The fabric is a bit stiff and not soft like BB or Mercer (as someone else noted), the cut is short and boxy, the neck has experienced significant shrinkage, and the pocket becomes a nuisance when wearing under a sweater. I personally would avoid them. Just my 2 cents.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

I'm wearing one today in off-white. It used to be bright white, but I've worn it and laundered it so many times, it is no longer. I just love this shirt. The weave is thick and textured. The flap puts it in a slot somewhere between dress shirt and work shirt. The white lifts it more toward dress. The accompanying tie pulls it even higher on the spectrum. The frayed cuffs and collar pull it back down. The mid-day wrinkle on a freshly ironed shirt puts it in a class by itself.

My only complaints include a collar that is a tad too short compared with BB and the lack of more colors, uni-stripes, and tattersalls in this chunky friend. Oh yeah, a locker loop and third button on the collar would complete me.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Correct.



Charles Saturn said:


> At some point didn't the Brooks shirt not have a pocket?


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Charles Saturn said:


> What hasn't been discussed ad nauseum around here?


I agree! If it were not for re-hashing past topics we would have run out of things to discuss a long time ago. Besides, it gives newer members who were not a part of the original discussion the opportunity to wade in and share their thoughts. Judging from the scarcity of new threads lately...I think that is a good thing.


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

I like a flap pocket without the button.


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## PeterW (May 14, 2004)

My problem is the boxy cut: not enough length in the body for me.


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## MKC (Sep 10, 2010)

I have the J. Press flap in both white and blue. I'm glad I have them, but the J. Press collar and cuffs are decidedly stiffer than a Mercer (unlined) or Brooks (lined). If I'm wearing a blazer, I may turn to the J. Press shirts. I can trust the collar will stay where it is supposed to. But most of the time, I reach for the softer, more comfortable Mercer or Brooks.


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## MidWestTrad (Aug 14, 2010)

Saltydog said:


> I agree! If it were not for re-hashing past topics we would have run out of things to discuss a long time ago. Besides, it gives newer members who were not a part of the original discussion the opportunity to wade in and share their thoughts. Judging from the scarcity of new threads lately...I think that is a good thing.


+1...let's not get too full of ourselves.


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## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

bd79cc said:


> The Press flap-pocket OCBD has been a staple of Trad dressing for at least the past 50 to 60 years - at least since the days of Fenn-Feinstein. The current shirts are excellent, and I highly recommend buying one or more during the sale.


Press started selling flap pocket shirts in 1938.


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## MKC (Sep 10, 2010)

bd79cc said:


> It went like this: Fenn-Feinstein, no pocket; Brooks, large open pocket; Press, flap-pocket with button closure.


Perhaps there is a trad historian who knows, but I thought I had read it was Fenn-Feinstein with a pocket, Brooks without.


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## Bato (Feb 5, 2010)

I used to not care much for the flap pocket shirt, but I was in the DC Press store over the summer and one of the salesmen was wearing one. I am still a bit hesitant to incorporate it into a more formal business look, but it looked great with a navy blazer, tie, khakis, navy wool surcingle belt, and brown tassel loafers.

Plus, Jack McCoy wears them which should count for something!


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Desk Jockey said:


> Press started selling flap pocket shirts in 1938.


 Interesting.

I always have my shirts made with a pocket flap. Mostly because I find it useful. I carry a Parker jotter in there, plus maybe an IPOD and a flash drive and you don't have to worry about the pocket flap. If tat seems informal, more the better; I am not a formal guy.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

In the 1950's and 60's, an experienced observer could tell where a Yale man shopped just by his shirt: plain pocket meant Fenn-Feinstein; pocket with flap, J. Press; and no pocket at all, the Brothers, which in those days didn't believe in shirt pockets, perhaps because almost all their suits still came with vests. https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?70172-The-Yale-Look

Also see Tom Wolf -"...searching like detectives for the marginal differences, the shirt with a flap over the breast pocket (J. Press), the shirt with no breast pocket (Brooks), the pants with military pockets, the polo coat with welted seams-and so on and on, through study and disastrous miscalculations, until they learn, at last, the business of marginal differentiations almost as perfectly as those teen-agers who make their mothers buy them button-down shirts and then make the poor old weepies sit up all night punching a buttonhole and sewing on a button in the back of the collar because they bought the wrong damn shirt, one of those hinkty ones without the button in the back. " https://thematerialist.net/secretvice.html



MKC said:


> Perhaps there is a trad historian who knows, but I thought I had read it was Fenn-Feinstein with a pocket, Brooks without.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Everybody should have a couple, if only for variety.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Brooks without, and in an age where nearly everyone smoked. Tom Wolfe is certainly one of our most accute observers and commentators on traditional menswear.


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## JakeLA (Oct 30, 2006)

C. Sharp said:


> In the 1950's and 60's, an experienced observer could tell where a Yale man shopped just by his shirt: plain pocket meant Fenn-Feinstein; pocket with flap, J. Press; and no pocket at all, the Brothers, which in those days didn't believe in shirt pockets, perhaps because almost all their suits still came with vests. https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?70172-The-Yale-Look
> 
> Also see Tom Wolf -"...searching like detectives for the marginal differences, the shirt with a flap over the breast pocket (J. Press), the shirt with no breast pocket (Brooks), the pants with military pockets, the polo coat with welted seams-and so on and on, through study and disastrous miscalculations, until they learn, at last, the business of marginal differentiations almost as perfectly as those teen-agers who make their mothers buy them button-down shirts and then make the poor old weepies sit up all night punching a buttonhole and sewing on a button in the back of the collar because they bought the wrong damn shirt, one of those hinkty ones without the button in the back. " https://thematerialist.net/secretvice.html


Thanks for the link, what a great read. And I hereby suggest we rename this forum "Andy's Marginal Differences Forum."

FWIW, my favorite shirt has a flap pocket with a 1/2 opening at the top of the flap so you can stick a pen in there while the flap is still buttoned. Mytailor.com makes 'em like that.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

C. Sharp said:


> In the 1950's and 60's, an experienced observer could tell where a Yale man shopped just by his shirt: plain pocket meant Fenn-Feinstein; pocket with flap, J. Press; and no pocket at all, the Brothers, which in those days didn't believe in shirt pockets, perhaps because almost all their suits still came with vests. https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?70172-The-Yale-Look
> 
> Also see Tom Wolf -"...searching like detectives for the marginal differences, the shirt with a flap over the breast pocket (J. Press), the shirt with no breast pocket (Brooks), the pants with military pockets, the polo coat with welted seams-and so on and on, through study and disastrous miscalculations, until they learn, at last, the business of marginal differentiations almost as perfectly as those teen-agers who make their mothers buy them button-down shirts and then make the poor old weepies sit up all night punching a buttonhole and sewing on a button in the back of the collar because they bought the wrong damn shirt, one of those hinkty ones without the button in the back. " https://thematerialist.net/secretvice.html


Thank you for looking up the imperfectly recalled passage. I stand corrected!


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Your welcome. Honestly it gets confusing. As an aside When Brooks went with the pocket, their tailors were willing to take them off at customer request.



bd79cc said:


> Thank you for looking up the imperfectly recalled passage. I stand corrected!


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Having read the Wolfe link - which most forumites who read it will enjoy - I would like to add to my above praise of his acuity the observation that he is also incredibly shallow, and wilfully obsessed with status symbols.


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

These are great shirts and I highly recommend. I am wearing a blue one at this moment. I have had about half J Press and half BB OBDs for the last 40 years or so. I will echo several people's comments when I say that the Brooks shirt is a bit softer but the J. Press can be improved by only using light starch every other trip to the cleaners. The weave on the JP appears to be a little looser than the BB but as I examine it now I am not sure it isn't an illusion.

i wear a jacket all day and thus keep pens etc there instead of my top pocket.

When I bought my oldest son his first batch of J. Press shirts with flaps he asked about their utility. I asked him what he planned to do when it rained. The flap was a very handy feature in the old days when my cigarettes resided there. Now only some lint.


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

I've never had a Press shirt but generally think pocket flaps are a nuisance. I could see the appeal if you wanted to keep some small item secured in the pocket, to be seldom removed, or if you just liked the look.

On the other hand, I can't stand a shirt without a pocket. I drop stuff in mine all day long; readers, pencil, cryptic notes, etc. 

Right now, I have a pack of smokes and a lighter in there. I am weak.

I have enjoyed Tom Wolfe's writings a great deal but to use a Southern phrase; I doubt we would "gee haw" very well in person.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

cumberlandpeal said:


> When I bought my oldest son his first batch of J. Press shirts with flaps he asked about their utility. I asked him what he planned to do when it rained. The flap was a very handy feature in the old days when my cigarettes resided there. Now only some lint.


lol, never thought of that!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Dragoon said:


> I've never had a Press shirt but generally think pocket flaps are a nuisance.
> 
> Right now, I have a pack of smokes and a lighter in there. I am weak.


Yet, if you had a flap on that pocket, they wouldn't fall out when you cartwheel!!


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Didn't Gitman Bros make a shirt like this a few years ago?


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## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

Dragoon said:


> I've never had a Press shirt but generally think pocket flaps are a nuisance. I could see the appeal if you wanted to keep some small item secured in the pocket, to be seldom removed, or if you just liked the look.


When not wearing my coat I clip my ID card to the flap--without & attached to the the pocket alone the thing tends to flip over & otherwise look like crap.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

I have never owned a Press flap pocket, but remember wearing a Tommy Hilfiger OCBD with a flap pocket in college back in 87. It was one of my favorites.


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*Huh?*



The Rambler said:


> Having read the Wolfe link - which most forumites who read it will enjoy - I would like to add to my above praise of his acuity the observation that he is also incredibly shallow, and wilfully obsessed with status symbols.


1. To assert that Wolfe is shallow is rude, uncalled for, impossible to prove or disprove and ungentlemanly. Especially when, for all practical purposes, he will not have an opportunity to come on this forum to defend himself.
2. To assert that he is "obsessed with status symbols" is to overly simplify his keen powers of observation and expression. What contemporary author can equal Wolfe with respect to his ability to examine and explore so many aspects of the modern human condition? I think he's brilliant.


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## MidWestTrad (Aug 14, 2010)

I took advantage of the 25% off sale ordering my first shirt from J. Press yesterday and a tie as well. Looking forward to comparing it to BB and Mercer shirts. 

Entertaining thread gents!


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

The observation about Wolfe being shallow and obsessed with status symbols is not rude since, as I read it, it's a criticism not of the man but of the writer, or at least of his authorial voice. Judging a writer is everyone's right, here and anywhere, and some of us do it for a living. However, having met him -- professionally, interviewing him for a newspaper -- I can attest that he is a gentleman in every way. I confess that I too was confusing the authorial voice with the man and feared he'd be dismissive and a snob; he was not in the least. What he does as a writer is to focus on observed detail, which by definition is shallow since looking into a man's eyes and seeing his soul is bogus, and using those details to expose mores and even morals. But since Wolfe is a fastidious dresser and this is a forum where sartorial minutiae matter (does that make the forum shallow and obsessed with status symbols?) I wonder what members think of his style. Maybe someone would start a thread.



Markus said:


> 1. To assert that Wolfe is shallow is rude, uncalled for, impossible to prove
> or disprove and ungentlemanly. Especially when, for all practical purposes, he will not have an opportunity to come on this forum to defend himself.
> 2. To assert that he is "obsessed with status symbols" is to overly simplify his keen powers of observation and expression. What contemporary author can equal Wolfe with respect to his ability to examine and explore so many aspects of the modern human condition? I think he's brilliant.


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## snakeroot (Aug 30, 2008)

I have the blue and white versions.

Definitely a more casual look: I'll reach for one when I'm setting tweediness to 11.

Flap is useful if you're keeping stuff in your shirtpocket, which is one of my bad habits. You can't put a pen in though, which is perhaps a feature not a bug. (My current shirt's predecessor got demoted to dog walking after an horrific pencap accident.)

Regards,


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

Wolfe, my fellow commenters, was making fun of US! What on earth is a blog devoted to traditional dress and its infinite permutations anything other than shallow and status oriented? Were I inclined to use the abbreviation, I would use three letters instead of writing that I laughed out loud.


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

cumberlandpeal said:


> Wolfe, my fellow commenters, was making fun of US! What on earth is a blog devoted to traditional dress and its infinite permutations anything other than shallow and status oriented? Were I inclined to use the abbreviation, I would use three letters instead of writing that I laughed out loud.


I must emphatically disagree on various fronts, but I'll only address two. First, and most obviously, this is not a blog. I'm a confessed and card-carrying technophobe and even I know that. Second, any site in which the most popular thread is focused on thrifted clothing is hardly about status. I refer you to one Henry David Thoreau for a discussion of thrift and its merits.


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## DavidW (May 22, 2006)

I've been wearing these for many years. Although none compare to my earliest ones made by Hathaway, has anyone noticed the most recent versions to be a bit skimpier in the length, body and sleeves?


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

cumberlandpeal said:


> Wolfe, my fellow commenters, was making fun of US!


Yes, he certainly was - along with Brooklyn Democrats, LBJ, and all the other guys who've ever fallen under the spell of glad rags, including himself. As another great writer said, "Laughter is the best pesticide."


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

Mississippi Mud: Sir, the first thing you do, status wise, is rebuke me for calling this a "blog." Next you suggest that status is a matter of money which it is demonstrably not; for, in fact, from a traditionalists point of view money spent on clothes is not a feature but a bug. But the status matter remains for this site, this website if you will permit me, is devoted to exploring the minutia of dressing to a particular form, the traditional form. It is entirely about status, it is completely about getting it right. A well bought tweed jacket reflects not only the taste of the acquirer but also his thrift. And the thrift, my good man, lies not in the actual initial purchase price but in the choice of an object that will last decades. If it was bought cheaply then all the better.
Thoreau, as you know, invented a process by which his father's pencil company could produce pencils competitively with the then superior European versions. So though Thoreau was fairly well protected from the vicissitudes of earning his daily bread he was a practical and hard working man who would not have devoted one second to the subject at hand.


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

cumberlandpeal said:


> Mississippi Mud: Sir, the first thing you do, status wise, is rebuke me for calling this a "blog." Next you suggest that status is a matter of money which it is demonstrably not; for, in fact, from a traditionalists point of view money spent on clothes is not a feature but a bug. But the status matter remains for this site, this website if you will permit me, is devoted to exploring the minutia of dressing to a particular form, the traditional form. It is entirely about status, it is completely about getting it right. A well bought tweed jacket reflects not only the taste of the acquirer but also his thrift. And the thrift, my good man, lies not in the actual initial purchase price but in the choice of an object that will last decades. If it was bought cheaply then all the better.
> Thoreau, as you know, invented a process by which his father's pencil company could produce pencils competitively with the then superior European versions. So though Thoreau was fairly well protected from the vicissitudes of earning his daily bread he was a practical and hard working man who would not have devoted one second to the subject at hand.


Not a bad reply at all. However, the problem you have is one of context. Status, broadly defined, in our culture _is _about money. Perhaps it wasn't once, but to argue otherwise now is mere tomfoolery. On this site, however, it is not. Status is, of course, totally beholden to context, and like every other little niche community on the web--from computers to handforged gardening tools--this forum has, yes, its own criteria for status. All of the things you listed are among them. These things, however--handwork, aesthetic longevity, thrift--don't translate into our culture at large very well: a youth-obsessed, money-driven, over-technified society it is that throws away some of its better clothes which, with luck, appear here from time to time.

I agree with you that if Thoreau were alive today, he would not be a participating member here; he would, however, have a serious problem with the manufacture of modern clothing as many contemporary writers do. While he wouldn't worry so much about collar rolls and pleated fronts, he might indeed purchase a solid vintage sweater from the thrift.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Markus said:


> 1. To assert that Wolfe is shallow is rude, uncalled for, impossible to prove or disprove and ungentlemanly. Especially when, for all practical purposes, he will not have an opportunity to come on this forum to defend himself.


What planet are you from? Are you challenging me to a duel or something?


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

btw, I think that Wolfe's acute observations about dress are exactly in tune with this forum, if better expressed, which is why I praised him, and recommended that entertaining essay that was linked. I remembered reading it in the 60s, and note that his personal style of dress was and is consistent with it. As far as shallowness goes, there's a very appropriate and witty comment by Oscar Wilde about surfaces -superficiality- being all that really matters, that I can't quite call to mind at present.


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

Mississippi Mud: Thoreau might well buy a thrifted sweater but his choice would probably be based on the utility of the purchase and not on its style, the origin of its fabric or its fit. Otherwise I believe you have generally conceded my point. I would argue, however, that it is wrong to combine the words "culture" and "our." There are many of us who adhere to a culture that is quite old and uncorrupted by contemporary values. I would commend to you the works of any of the stoics but would particularly recommend Seneca.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Markus said:


> ... when, for all practical purposes, he will not have an opportunity to come on this forum to defend himself.


A fair observation, since practical purposes also seem to have dissuaded him from defending his copyright....


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

cumberlandpeal said:


> There are many of us who adhere to a culture that is quite old and uncorrupted by contemporary values.


That is an impossible task, of course, for any number of reasons: the simple fact that you, by default, are posting using a computer implicates you in an incredible number of modern economies which did not exist in your "old and uncorrupted" culture.

Also, to argue that nothing on this board has to do with utility would be, again, mistaken. There are many discussions here which have to do with aesthetic considerations only: the vestigial third button and the width of a turn-up are obvious examples. On the other hand, there have been other topics which emphasize utility, like density of material and weave as concerns the weather. The fact is that generalizations and over-simplifications don't make for a well-reasoned post.


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> As far as shallowness goes, there's a very appropriate and witty comment by Oscar Wilde about surfaces -superficiality- being all that really matters, that I can't quite call to mind at present.


And Edward Abbey: "... I am pleased enough with the surfaces - in fact they alone seem to me to be of much importance. Such things for example as the grasp of a child's hand in your own, the flavor of an apple, the embrace of a friend or lover, the silk of a girl's thigh, the sunlight on the rock and leaves, the feel of music, the bark of a tree, the abrasion of granite and sand, the plunge of clear water into a pool, the face of the wind - what else is there? What else do we need?"


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Starch said:


> A fair observation, since practical purposes also seem to have dissuaded him from defending his copyright....


because the essay was on the web?


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## Dragoon (Apr 1, 2010)

Interweb BBs are fascinating no matter the underlying content. I wonder how many scholarly papers have been written on them.

FWIW, I picture Thoreau wearing Patagonia.

Edit: with all the academics here I've become paranoid about my very poor writing. I think that my English 101 and 102 professors became alchoholics after having me in their class. I was earnest and tried but I sucked.


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

Mississippi Mud: To conflate the use of a computer with the adoption of a mindless and debased popular culture is sophomoric and suggests a unibomber like view of technology in competition with our heroic past or some other failure to think deeply. To acknowledge that people spend their time discussing the vestigial third button again underscores the point that Wolfe made in his classic essay. The ability to quickly look at a person's coat and know that the presence of a dart excludes him from the traditional society is proof enough that status is at work here, beyond utility and beyond aesthetics. Ditto the flap on a J. Press shirt. Ditto the shape of the toe of a shoe. And so on. These methods of creating and maintaining status are available to those both with and without money. It is a game we play.

Finally, "adhere" should not have suggested in any way that the popular culture does not intrude at every turn. We try to keep the old values going as much as we can.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Dragoon said:


> .
> 
> Edit: with all the academics here I've become paranoid about my very poor writing. I think that my English 101 and 102 professors became alchoholics after having me in their class. I was earnest and tried but I sucked.


fwiw, i think you're style is fine Dragoon: back in the day when you took English 101, kids barely wrote anything, with predictably poor consequences for their prose style, and the trick was to just get them writing, used to doing it: a million websites like this one have been a big plus :biggrin2:


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

Dragoon: As a former English teacher and recovering alcoholic I absolve you totally from any perceived failings you might have on the writing front. I second, wholeheartedly, The Rambler's encouragement. Good writing will come from writing a lot and reading even more.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

mon frere!


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

cumberlandpeal said:


> Mississippi Mud: To conflate the use of a computer with the adoption of a mindless and debased popular culture is sophomoric and suggests a unibomber like view of technology in competition with our heroic past or some other failure to think deeply. To acknowledge that people spend their time discussing the vestigial third button again underscores the point that Wolfe made in his classic essay. The ability to quickly look at a person's coat and know that the presence of a dart excludes him from the traditional society is proof enough that status is at work here, beyond utility and beyond aesthetics. Ditto the flap on a J. Press shirt. Ditto the shape of the toe of a shoe. And so on. These methods of creating and maintaining status are available to those both with and without money. It is a game we play.
> 
> Finally, "adhere" should not have suggested in any way that the popular culture does not intrude at every turn. We try to keep the old values going as much as we can.


Good luck with your recovery.


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

Mississippi Mud: Thanks. I just passed my twentieth year sober. Left teaching English over forty years ago to pursue investment banking. Successfully. I figured that instead of railing against the machine I should have a look inside it. No regrets.


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

The Rambler: Indeed.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

I pulled the trigger on a blue one today @ the sale price.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

^Exactly! And where are the moderators when you really need them?


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## oldschoolprep (Jun 21, 2007)

*Wise Choice - Brio*

Good move, Brio. You won't be diasppointed. Also Consider the Pink OCBD the next time around. While some eschew the color for a multitude of reasons, its one of the most Trad garments on the market today.

Regards,
OldSchoolPrep

QUOTE=Brio1;1166145]I pulled the trigger on a blue one today @ the sale price.[/QUOTE]


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I love returning to threads 2-3 pages in and, finding the rubicon swiftly crossed, seeing what Ceasar is up to. Things have certainly gotten weird.


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## MidWestTrad (Aug 14, 2010)

Got my first one yesterday from the recent sale. Tried it one briefly, fits very well and seems to be a well constructed shirt. Looking forward to getting it washed and wearing it to work!


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

oldschoolprep said:


> Good move, Brio. You won't be diasppointed. Also Consider the Pink OCBD the next time around. While some eschew the color for a multitude of reasons, its one of the most Trad garments on the market today.
> 
> Regards,
> OldSchoolPrep
> ...


[/QUOTE]


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