# Any reason to use super 220's?



## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

This week in the NY Times I saw an ad for a Hong Kong tailor. I believe it was Mahon or something like that. He had attractive pricing and it seemed to be based incrementally on the type of wool. If a suit was $899 in super 120's, it was about $1199 in super 150's and about $1499 in super $220's.

I have been told that there is no reason to use a fabric above 150's and it is generally a waste of money. I was wondering if any of the knowledgeable AAAC members might impart some opinions and knowledge about this.


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## dragon (Jan 28, 2006)

The higher the count ie..Super 180 and above, the finer the wool. It is more delicate than a super 120 and may wear out quicker.

I like to stay with 120's. More durable.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

rnoldh:

I can't think of one, unless you want a very soft hand in a fabric that might only last one season.

Super 100's, 120's, etc refer to the length in centimeters one woolen yarn can be stretched. It's a measurement of fineness. Also measured in microns. A micron is one-millionth of a meter, or one micrometer, which is approximately 1/25,000 of an inch.

Longer yarn results in a more luxurious, finer hand and a lighter weight. 

Modern high-tech machines spin wool finer than it's ever been spun before! The super number or S number was set up as shorthand for describing the fineness of wool fibers not a quality ranking. The S-system (aka Worsted Count System) began in the 18th century. Finished yarn was coiled in 560-yard long loops called hanks. The S number indicated how many hanks could be made from a pound of wool.

Now the S- number refers to the fineness of the wool as measured in microns or one-millionth of a meter.

But very high S-system number (Super 150, Super 200) wools don't guarantee the best garments. Any fabric over S-120 will feel rich, but will have a shorter lifespan. The high S fabrics are more difficult to tailor. 

Italian Tailors say the wool is "nervous". Since the material shifts so easily when it is sewn. Such wools wrinkle almost as much as linen. They are delicate and not as durable as less-fine wool. 

You can have good 15-micron wool or bad 15-micron wool. Ultimately it is the look and tailoring of the fabric that matter most, everything else is just a number.

Fineness is only one measure of quality. Length, and strength are also important. Length is vital since the longer the fiber the stronger the yarn that can be spun from it. Strength is critical because the yarn must be twisted very tightly to achieve a fine weave.


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

*120's for me!*

Thanks Andy,
Informative as always. After reading your post I almost feel that 180's and above are basically an affectation and just a way of saying "I can afford them". I personally, especially after your post will be sticking with 120's. But, I will say that I do see many very fine clothing makers that I admire, such as Oxxford, Brioni, and Kiton use 150's widely. 
Regards,
rnoldh


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

I go no higher than 100. I prefer 70 or 80 during the colder 3 seasons.


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## briiian13 (Oct 24, 2005)

good post, i learned some historical and scientific things today. 
i guess going over 180 is like anyone who is affluent enough to buy one suit or garment to wear ONCE to a high profile event, like academy awards, or some ball or something for princes and queens. 

at those events, these affluent and affluently dressed persons are not required to pull tables together, open doors, run around or anything but stroll in, smile at photographers and pose dramatically under display lighting, catching that magnificent sheen and drape of the 180+ yarn.

i wear 100s or around there for work, and take it to dinner afterwards, dont have a vast wardrobe.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

rnoldh said:


> This week in the NY Times I saw an ad for a Hong Kong tailor. I believe it was Mahon or something like that. He had attractive pricing and it seemed to be based incrementally on the type of wool. If a suit was $899 in super 120's, it was about $1199 in super 150's and about $1499 in super $220's.
> 
> I have been told that there is no reason to use a fabric above 150's and it is generally a waste of money. I was wondering if any of the knowledgeable AAAC members might impart some opinions and knowledge about this.


IMHO the only reason buy a suit crafted of a fabric beyond the "super 120's" would be an inexplicable desire to spend more for a suit that will provide far less service...it just wouldn't make "cents" to me!


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

It is certainly very true that you must be wary of this numbers game. You can easily fall into the trap of thinking that the higher the S number the better. The other thing to remember is that there are good S150 fabrics and bad ones. A good Super 100s fabric can be vastly superior to a shoddy Super 150s fabric. 

The following article is perhaps the most comprehensive on the subject:



So does everyone here agree that S150s is the pivotal point above which a suit immediately becomes a 'special occasions suit'?


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

rnoldh said:


> Thanks Andy,
> Informative as always. After reading your post I almost feel that 180's and above are basically an affectation and just a way of saying "I can afford them". I personally, especially after your post will be sticking with 120's. But, I will say that I do see many very fine clothing makers that I admire, such as Oxxford, Brioni, and Kiton use 150's widely.
> Regards,
> rnoldh


My only 2 150's (by Brioni and Oxxford) wear as well as lesser fabrics by other staples, such as Samuelsohn and Hickey, and better than lesser fabrics by Zegna (who I characterize as making beautiful but fragile garments.) So the yarn count is not the only criteria.

Perry


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## retronotmetro (Jun 19, 2004)

Sator said:


> So does everyone here agree that S150s is the pivotal point above which a suit immediately becomes a 'special occasions suit'?


No. I have a couple of suits in Charles Clayton S150s that are staples in my rotation, and they have been wearing very well.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

retronotmetro said:


> No. I have a couple of suits in Charles Clayton S150s that are staples in my rotation, and they have been wearing very well.


Thank you for sharing your experiences. I was very interested in your reply as I also have a couple of S150s, but I am a little reluctant to rotate them. May I ask how long you have been rotating your S150s suits and if you have ever dry cleaned them (and if so what sort of dry cleaning eg CO2, you used on them)? My understanding was that regular dry cleaning cannot be used on these finer wools.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

pkincy said:


> My only 2 150's (by Brioni and Oxxford) wear as well as lesser fabrics by other staples, such as Samuelsohn and Hickey, and better than lesser fabrics by Zegna (who I characterize as making beautiful but fragile garments.) So the yarn count is not the only criteria.
> 
> Perry


Now that Oxxford gets all of their fabrics from Holland and Sherry (who, supposedly, has much better super 150s and higher fabrics than the source Oxxford used to get their fabrics from), super 150s suits and other tailored clothing from Oxxford should be much more durable (i.e. much more resistant to wrinkles and much better overall substance) with no sacrifices in lightweight factor or fineness and no sacrifices in how well super 150s fabrics crease. Therefore, Oxxford tailored clothing made out of super 150s fabrics should be far better (and very good or excellent overall) for work while still being excellent for special occasions. All of the above also applies to super 140s fabrics for Oxxford as well.

Even with Holland and Sherry fabrics, Oxxford tailored clothing made out of super 160s through super 180s fabrics should only be worn to work two or three times a year at the very most, but preferably never. Before Oxxford started to use Holland and Sherry as their fabric source, Super 160s through super 180s fabrics were pretty much only for special occasions. Well, maybe they could be worn to work two, three or four times in their life span.

Super 190s and Super 200s fabrics from Oxxford can probably be worn to work once, twice or three times in their lifespan, but preferably (and a very stong preferance at that) never, even with Holland and Sherry fabrics. With the source that Oxxford used to get their fabrics from, super 190s and super 200s fabrics from Oxxford should never be worn to work, not even once in their lifespan.


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## jfr333 (Mar 21, 2006)

Fashion TC said:


> Now that Oxxford gets all of their fabrics from Holland and Sherry (who, supposedly, has much better super 150s and higher fabrics than the source Oxxford used to get their fabrics from), super 150s suits and other tailored clothing from Oxxford should be much more durable (i.e. much more resistant to wrinkles and much better overall substance) with no sacrifices in lightweight factor or fineness and no sacrifices in how well super 150s fabrics crease. Therefore, Oxxford tailored clothing made out of super 150s fabrics should be far better (and very good or excellent overall) for work while still being excellent for special occasions. All of the above also applies to super 140s fabrics for Oxxford as well.
> 
> Even with Holland and Sherry fabrics, Oxxford tailored clothing made out of super 160s through super 180s fabrics should only be worn to work two or three times a year at the very most, but preferably never. Before Oxxford started to use Holland and Sherry as their fabric source, Super 160s through super 180s fabrics were pretty much only for special occasions. Well, maybe they could be worn to work two, three or four times in their life span.
> 
> Super 190s and Super 200s fabrics from Oxxford can probably be worn to work once, twice or three times in their lifespan, but preferably (and a very stong preferance at that) never, even with Holland and Sherry fabrics. With the source that Oxxford used to get their fabrics from, super 190s and super 200s fabrics from Oxxford should never be worn to work, not even once in their lifespan.


Just curious at to how you've formed these opinions, i.e., what your source is, whether it be personal knowledge or otherwise. I fail to understand why anyone would want to have a suit made with some of these luxurious fabrics, never to wear it (or only to wear it very few times throughout its lifespan). Intriguing...

(((Just a disclaimer: I do not intend to be facetious by this post; I am truly curious.)))


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## kirbya (Nov 10, 2004)

*Crazy wools*

It seems that there is a small market for super-expensive suiting fabrics. Scarba (sp?) has some fabrics with gold pinstripes. Necessary? Do they drape better than a normal super 120? Who knows... they probably DO set off the medal detectors at airports. However, if you're paying 10k for a suit, you're hopefully flying private.

P.S. I don't like this "new member" thing--I've been on this forum for over two years!


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## wcp45 (Nov 15, 2003)

Fashion TC said:


> Now that Oxxford gets all of their fabrics from Holland and Sherry (who, supposedly, has much better super 150s and higher fabrics than the source Oxxford used to get their fabrics from), super 150s suits and other tailored clothing from Oxxford should be much more durable (i.e. much more resistant to wrinkles and much better overall substance) with no sacrifices in lightweight factor or fineness and no sacrifices in how well super 150s fabrics crease. Therefore, Oxxford tailored clothing made out of super 150s fabrics should be far better (and very good or excellent overall) for work while still being excellent for special occasions. All of the above also applies to super 140s fabrics for Oxxford as well.
> 
> Even with Holland and Sherry fabrics, Oxxford tailored clothing made out of super 160s through super 180s fabrics should only be worn to work two or three times a year at the very most, but preferably never. Before Oxxford started to use Holland and Sherry as their fabric source, Super 160s through super 180s fabrics were pretty much only for special occasions. Well, maybe they could be worn to work two, three or four times in their life span.
> 
> Super 190s and Super 200s fabrics from Oxxford can probably be worn to work once, twice or three times in their lifespan, but preferably (and a very stong preferance at that) never, even with Holland and Sherry fabrics. With the source that Oxxford used to get their fabrics from, super 190s and super 200s fabrics from Oxxford should never be worn to work, not even once in their lifespan.


I often read in this forum about the fragility of super 150+ fabrics, and I must say my experience is very different. No doubt these aren't the hardest-wearing fabrics. But I have a few suits made from super 150s and 180s fabrics, and I wear them to work all the time. One, a charcol-grey super 180 from Kiton (K-suit model), is my go-to suit, both because it is a classic and it's my best-fitting and most comfortable suit. I've had it for 3 years. I wear it about once a week--to the office and to court. I take it when I travel. I fold it into my carry-on (not a suit bag), hang it up when I get to my destination, and the wrinkles fall out overnight. There is no sign of damage after 3 years of constant use. Will it be around in 10 years? I don't know, but I'm getting great use out of it now.

But the "super" designation does not guarantee fabric quality. In fact, if someone tells you they can make a suit from "super 220s" fabric for $1,499, I can guarantee you the fabric is poor quality, if in fact it is even super 220s fabric.


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## retronotmetro (Jun 19, 2004)

Sator said:


> Thank you for sharing your experiences. I was very interested in your reply as I also have a couple of S150s, but I am a little reluctant to rotate them. May I ask how long you have been rotating your S150s suits and if you have ever dry cleaned them (and if so what sort of dry cleaning eg CO2, you used on them)? My understanding was that regular dry cleaning cannot be used on these finer wools.


Each of these suits has been worn once every week for about 10 months, and they've never been dry cleaned. No noticeable sign of wear on either suit. And Charles Clayton isn't reputed to be a top 150s, either.


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## qasimkhan (Sep 24, 2003)

I agree the fragility of 150's is overdone. I have three suits made from 140's or 150's--fabric that I picked up in the main department store in Almati, Kazakstan. The fabrics were made in England according to the selvege, but I wouldn't be surprised if were Chinese or something like that. I have worn them once a week for over a year and dry-cleaned them several times, and they show no wear yet. 

Steve


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## Syringemouth (Aug 24, 2005)

Rnoldh:

Whom may I ask is stating that "any fabric over super 150's is a waste of money?" Because I don't agree with that at all. Just because the super 150's + range tend to wrinkle more than say "cardboard 100" it is a matter of personal preferance.

Personally I like the softness and light feel of a super 180's. For my body type it looks best on me in my opinion. The drape is far superior to any type of super 100 I have. 

I have a Kiton super 190's that I have had for several years with at least being worn 50+ times a year and it holds up better than some of the super 110's I have in my closet. 

There is good super 180's and bad super 180's I don't care what anyone says. I personally believe that Kiton uses "good super 180's." The old saying goes you get what you pay for, and I believe that to be true.

Yes, Kiton is overpriced but they make one of the finest garments in the world in my opinion and I have yet to find ANY other brand who comes close to replicating their cloths. This is because they usually buy all of the fabric from the mill so they have exclusivity over it. 

I guess to answer your question in a quote from Public Enemy..."Don't believe the hype!"


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Andy said:


> rnoldh:
> 
> ...Such wools wrinkle almost as much as linen.


Dare I disagree with the man himself? Yes.
I have a suit made from 9oz Holland & Sherry Super 140's and it creases less than any other suit I own.
It's better than all my S100's S120's etc. and the best part about it is that it feels like I'm wearing silk pyjamas.
Definitely worth the extra cash.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Bonhamesque said:


> Dare I disagree with the man himself? Yes.
> I have a suit made from 9oz Holland & Sherry Super 140's and it creases less than any other suit I own.
> It's better than all my S100's S120's etc. and the best part about it is that it feels like I'm wearing silk pyjamas.
> Definitely worth the extra cash.


 Sorry Bonhamesque, but you'll have to be banned! :devil:

Just kidding :icon_smile_big:

It could be the fabric weight, the weave or .... so many factors!


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

jfr333 said:


> Just curious at to how you've formed these opinions, i.e., what your source is, whether it be personal knowledge or otherwise. I fail to understand why anyone would want to have a suit made with some of these luxurious fabrics, never to wear it (or only to wear it very few times throughout its lifespan). Intriguing...
> 
> (((Just a disclaimer: I do not intend to be facetious by this post; I am truly curious.)))


My source is from information and knowledge of other people here on Ask Andy's who either know more about clothing in general that I do or knew more about clothing in general than I did before I joined this forum last year on Monday 7-18-05. Besides boldness, brashness and the striking factor, there are reasons as to why Oxxford now gets their fabrics from Holland and Sherry instead of whatever fabric source they used to get their fabrics from. Don't many of the exotic Italian brands of clothing as well as the best bespoke tailors in Europe (particularly England and Italy) get many or most of their fabrics from Holland and Sherry? Correct me if I am wrong, but Holland and Sherry fabrics with higher threads per square inch (i.e. S140s and up) are more durable than the same fabrics from most (but NOT all) other fabric sources out there.


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## Syringemouth (Aug 24, 2005)

Fashion TC said:


> My source is from information and knowledge of other people here on Ask Andy's who either know more about clothing in general that I do or knew more about clothing in general than I did before I joined this forum last year on Monday 7-18-05. Besides boldness, brashness and the striking factor, there are reasons as to why Oxxford now gets their fabrics from Holland and Sherry instead of whatever fabric source they used to get their fabrics from. Don't many of the exotic Italian brands of clothing as well as the best bespoke tailors in Europe (particularly England and Italy) get many or most of their fabrics from Holland and Sherry? Correct me if I am wrong, but Holland and Sherry fabrics with higher threads per square inch (i.e. S140s and up) are more durable than the same fabrics from most (but NOT all) other fabric sources out there.


I couldn't have said it better myself!! Thank TC!


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## retronotmetro (Jun 19, 2004)

Fashion TC said:


> Besides boldness, brashness and the striking factor, there are reasons as to why Oxxford now gets their fabrics from Holland and Sherry instead of whatever fabric source they used to get their fabrics from.


How about the fact that Individualized Apparel Group, which owns Oxxford, purchased Holland & Sherry in 2004?

Not to say that H&S is inferior cloth (which it isn't), but there is more at work here than simple free market vendor selection.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Fashion TC said:


> My source is from information and knowledge of other people here on Ask Andy's who either know more about clothing in general that I do or knew more about clothing in general than I did before I joined this forum last year on Monday 7-18-05. Besides boldness, brashness and the striking factor, there are reasons as to why Oxxford now gets their fabrics from Holland and Sherry instead of whatever fabric source they used to get their fabrics from. Don't many of the exotic Italian brands of clothing as well as the best bespoke tailors in Europe (particularly England and Italy) get many or most of their fabrics from Holland and Sherry? Correct me if I am wrong, but Holland and Sherry fabrics with higher threads per square inch (i.e. S140s and up) are more durable than the same fabrics from most (but NOT all) other fabric sources out there.


Micronage, which is what the supers number referrs to, and thread count/density are unrelated concepts. High micronage means each hair is thinner, making it weaker. This is why these fabrics, _all else being equal_, wear out faster. This is not someone's annecdotal experience, this is simple fact. Many other factors come into play when it comes to a fabric's behavior: yarn twist, density of the weave, type of weave, yarn thickness, number of plies, staple length, finishing technique, probably speed of loom...the list goes on.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

wcp45 said:


> But the "super" designation does not guarantee fabric quality. In fact, if someone tells you they can make a suit from "super 220s" fabric for $1,499, I can guarantee you the fabric is poor quality, if in fact it is even super 220s fabric.


Very well put. From what I understand the price of the S200s fabric alone should be more than $1499. If they claim they can make a suit as well for this price I would be highly skeptical.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

"Correct me if I am wrong, but Holland and Sherry fabrics with higher threads per square inch (i.e. S140s and up) are more durable than the same fabrics from most (but NOT all) other fabric sources out there."

Holland & Sherry is almost certainly the best large merchant. Their cloth is of consistantly high quality and they stock a uniquely large number of types than the other merchants, such as Lesser, with comparable quality.

That said, their cloth is not uniquely durable.


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

My only super 150 suit was an Oxxford purchased in the 1990's. It was not delicate at all, and was part of my regular spring/summer rotation. I am in agreement with those who say that the fragility of s150 fabric is overblown.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Years ago a very kind and informed life long member of the rag trade told me, never more than super 100s for work, super 120s for going out.
I think perhaps there was time a time when this may have been very true.

Like others here, I have only partially heeded that advice. 
My favorite, my go to, is of 130s and it shows no sign of wear what so ever.


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## Michaelgmd (Jul 14, 2005)

*Wearing 150's*

I have a number of 150's and even some 180's that I wear regularly to work and they are doing just fine. Yes, the 180's are finer cloth (all btw are Kiton, Brioni, or Oxxford) and I just can't get "precious" about my suits or my clothes. They're made to be worn and enjoyed. I had Oxxford make a polo coat recently from some amazing vintage (1949 still sealed in the mill wrapping vicuna I found (on E-Bay -- story to follow later this year in a photo essay I've agreed to do for Robb Report) and basically I just wear it and enjoy it. I do take some care to not just toss it around. I consider it a work of art, but also a coat to be used.

I have a pair of Oxxford slacks that are super 180 and cashmere blend and I've worn it repeatedly over the winter (it's unbelieveably wonderful to just feel the cloth) and they look like the day I got them (from E-Bay with the $1995 tag from Neiman's still on them!!)

I agree wholeheartedly regarding looking past the number into the quality of the cloth. But in general, I like the way most of my 150's drape and feel. That's, in my opinion, however, as much to do with the tailor as the weaver.

M


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

*weight vs micron*

I totally agree that judging a cloth by its "s" number is mis-leading. I have tried various cloths and IMHO the best fabric for tailoring is a 12oz super 80's with a 2-fold warp and weft. I can wear it for 9 months in London. This is far superior (and more expensive to produce) than many of the 8oz Super 120's and cashmere you see in middle market RTW.
I have a few suits in Super 150's (from English and Italian mills) and they are nice occassion suits that I would only wear for work once a fortnight.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Whistle-Blower,

I think you may have hit on a key point. And that is what type of wear will the suit get.

It is one thing if you have few suits and must get up at Oh Dark Thirty and take public transportation in all kinds of weather to the train and the train to town and walk to work; than work for 9 hours; and reverse the process. 

That would take a heavier fabric in a very durable 80s-90s yarn count. And maybe even a suit with heavier construction than many we like here.

I have suits for this type of wear and they tend to be Hart, Abboud, and Samuelsohn.

OTOH, you could office at home as I do and only wear your suit when you go out for your daily appts. Typically 5-8 hours away from the office and only a short drive by private car. In this case super 150s up can work. That is when the better suits can come out.

Also for your evenings out. For most of us that tends to be a 4-6 hour wearing event. So in the latter 2 cases much less durable fabric can work very nicely.

Perry


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Michaelgmd said:


> II had Oxxford make a polo coat recently from some amazing vintage (1949 still sealed in the mill wrapping vicuna I found (on E-Bay )M


You. Found. Vicuna. On. Ebay.

I am awed. Guess I need to add to my standard searches.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

pkincy said:


> Whistle-Blower,
> 
> I think you may have hit on a key point. And that is what type of wear will the suit get.
> 
> ...


I would second Perry's endorsement of Whistle-Blower's post - nicely paraphrased and expanded on. Here in Sydney, the weather is mostly quite warm and so higher S numbers mean a lighter and cooler fabric. I imagine that if you are in the Southern States of the US or California, the same might hold true. And if a Londonder did move to Sydney, he might have to get a new wardrobe. So fabric choice clearly needs to be based on the local climate as well as your personal set of circumstances.


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