# belts: "surcingle" versus "grosgrain" versus "ribbon"



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Can one of you experts help me out with definitions? Perhaps even pictures? Many thanks as always, gentlemen.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Grosgrain is a type of ribbon. The easiest thing to do might be to look around the J. Press web site. These are surcingle belts:

https://www.jpressonline.com/belts_surcingle.php

And these are grosgrain ribbon belts:

https://www.jpressonline.com/belts_ribbon.php?page=4


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

*That helps a lot, but....*

Thanks, rojo. Very helpful. Is the difference between surcingle and ribbon the fastener or the material? What would be an example of a non-grograin ribbon? Many thanks for your assistance.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Surcingle belts are generally made from wool, with leather trim and brass buckles (see photo.) They come in solids and stripes.



Grosgrain (a.k.a. "ribbon") belts are nothing more than a length of ribbon (usually nylon) attached to a D-ring buckle (see photo.) They are available in many color combinations, mostly stripes and solids. There's a variant, which is a canvas belt with a strip of ribbon sewn to it. These also use a D-ring buckle.


You'll also find belts made of nylon webbing with a D-ring buckle (found at L.L. Bean and other outdoors-type suppliers) which give a similar look, but these are technically not "grosgrain."


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

*or just look at what Kent W wrote before I finished typing*



Mike Petrik said:


> Is the difference between surcingle and ribbon the fastener or the material? What would be an example of a non-grograin ribbon?


Both.

Surcingle belts (always in my experience, though I'm willing to bet that there are counter-examples out there somewhere) have leather ends and a regular belt buckle.

Grosgrain belts end in a d-ring configuration. 
(both as pictured in the examples Rojo provided)

Surcingle and grosgrain belts are also made from very different materials. Grosgrain is - I believe - made of polyester or nylon and is woven like a twill. Surgincle is made of either cotton, wool or some blend with a stretchy material.

Ribbon belts could also be made of silk.


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Rough Draft-- a partial answer to your question...*

Ribbons can be Jacquard woven (with intricate designs woven into the fabric)

or they can have designs printed on them.

Ribbons can be made of gingham fabric.

Ribbons can be made from velvet fabric

Ribbons can be made from Japanese, hand dyed silk.

The most common variety of ribbon is "single face satin". That is, satin ribbon which is shiny and smooth on one side, and has a matte to semi-gloss finish on the back side. Most satin ribbon is made from polyester fillament, but it can be made of silk or rayon.

Grossgrain ribbon is only slightly less common than satin. It is shiny, but has a heavy "horizontal ribbing" effect. The plastic grossgrain known as "curly ribbon" makes a loud zippering noise when you rub the blade of your scissors down the length of it (prior to tying it into a bow for placement on a giftwrapped package).

Fabric stores sell polyester grossgrain in dozens of colors. JKM is one of the last places in the country to offer Rayon grossgrain, and the difference is huge. You can see from ten paces off that a ribbon is made from high grade rayon, instead of polyester fillament.

Most braces nowadays are made from rayon grosgrain, as silk grosgrain is impossible to find. Only the U.S. Military seems to know how to source it, and perhaps a few milliners. Trust me, I've tried in vain to aquire silk grossgrain from several suppliers to the military, and they cannot seem to figure out a way to sell it to civilians (drat!).

Grossgrain D-ring belts are often made from polyester grosgrain, but you never know. These things rarely list the fiber content on the label.

Ribbon watch bands are almost always made from a high grade nylon, which is about as durable as is humanly possible. The nylon grosgrain holds very rich colors (as does the rayon), and is very comfortable to wear. My guess is that the stripes are printed on using a "hot stamping" method, but I could easily be wrong about this.

Usually, when a nylon fillament is used, you see grosgrain refered to as "webbing" by those in the "narrow fabrics" industry. I guess "webbing" just sounds more reliable, and this is important when you are making seat belts, cargo nets, and rock climbing harnesses.










The word "Surcingle" has its roots in Equestrian sport, but more and more the term has come to mean a heavy wool (or sometimes wool and elastic) webbing with a pronounced diagonal weave. The above photo of a "surcingle trainer" should make plain how the surcingle belt got its name.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

dpihl
The word "Surcingle" has its roots in Equestrian sport said:


> Great post, David.
> 
> In the equestrian sense, does 'surcingle' refer to a specific type of material (wool?) or simply to any non-leather component of riding gear?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

*A thousand thanks!*

You gentlemen are the best!


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## ziggy (Jun 5, 2006)

The things I would never know if I hadn't found AAAC!


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

Cantabrigian said:


> Great post, David.
> 
> In the equestrian sense, does 'surcingle' refer to a specific type of material (wool?) or simply to any non-leather component of riding gear?


Main Entry:sur£cin£gle
Pronunciation:*s*r-*si*-g*l
Function:noun 
Etymology:Middle English sursengle, from Middle French surcengle, from sur- + cengle girdle, from Latin cingulum- more at CINGULUM
Date:14th century

1 : a belt, band, or girth passing around the body of a horse to bind a saddle or pack fast to the horse's back
2 archaic : the cincture of a cassock

*Surcingle*

*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

Jump to: navigation, search
A *surcingle* is a leather, nylon, or neoprene strap that fastens around a horse's girth area. It has many rings attached, running from the ribcage up to the withers area.
[edit]

*Uses of the Surcingle*

The surcingle is most commonly used for longeing, mainly to attach training equipment such as side reins, lauffer reins (sliding side reins), and chambons. A surcingle is also important in long reining, as it provides rings for the long reins to run through. Double longeing, using two longe lines, requires the use of a surcingle to thread the longe lines through the rings. Many trainers first teach a young horse to accept girth pressure by strapping on a surcingle before a saddle and girth.
Compared to a saddle, a surcingle provides better adjustment to the adjustment of side reins due to the placement of rings around it. While a saddle only provides one height to attach the rings (the billets), a surcingle allows the side reins to be attached all up and down the sides of the horse.
[edit]

*Placement of the Surcingle*

A surcingle may be used with or without a saddle.
When used with a saddle, the surcingle wraps around over the seat area near the pommel. The stirrups are usually removed to allow the surcingle to lie flat.
When used without a saddle, a surcingle sits just behind the withers. A surcingle should be used with a pad, and fit to the horse's back as carefully as a saddle would be.


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## Red Phillips (Jul 8, 2006)

Where can I get a natural surcingle belt? I have found blue, tan , etc. but not natural.


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