# Are penny loafers acceptable business attire?



## hereformydad (Aug 18, 2009)

Hi. I'm an 18 year old who is getting an internship at a pretty good architectural firm. I've been in that office and everyone there is pretty sloppily dressed.

My business shoe wardrobe is limited to a pair of Allen Edmonds Park Avenue that I really got lucky on because they were in good condition and in my size. I really like the Allen Edmonds Fifth Avenue in brown for a second shoe I don't have $300+ for another shoe because I have to reserve that money towards text books and other college expenses.

I simply can not stand some of those rubber soled styles offered by Rockport or whatever for a more budget friendly office shoe, but I see a lot not high quality, but wearable penny loafers in the $100 ballpark.

Are the Penny Loafers an acceptable shoe for business attire? I'm not required to wear a suit to work and even if I did, I have my AE Park Avenues for that. I am not expected to wear a tie to work every day but I have to wear a button up shirt, trousers, or chinos.

If penny loafers are a go, which cheap pair should I buy? I am not going to get the Bass Weejuns because I handled a pair and they were made of plastic. I see that Sebago and LL Bean also offer penny loafers in my price range, and I was wondering if any of you guys could chime in on the quality.


----------



## mhj (Oct 27, 2010)

The LL Bean penny loafers are of the same quality as today's Bass or Sebago models (plasticy), and are probably made by one of those companies. I got a pair of Allen Edmonds Kenwood VIPs from the AE Shoebank recently for $139 which isn't much more than Bass or Sebago's retail prices.

To answer your question, I think they are fine for business dress especially in the environment you describe. Penny loafers are very versatile, they go well with khakis, dress slacks and I have worn mine with a suit in a more social setting.


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Penny loafers will be fine in the work environment you describe. Look at the HS Trask website (carefully) for whatever loafers they might have these days. They are sourced offshore, but none are made of deplorable Chinese plastic. Also, look in Sears for Lands End loafers, and on the LE website. In your price range, you may have to accept rubber soles, but they need not be clunky. AE's are always trustworthy. Good luck


----------



## hereformydad (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks for the efficient responses. Penny Loafers it is! I realize that at the $100 range I am essentially paying for plastic, and I was under the impression that most of the nicer AE start at $300, but a lot of their loafers can easily be had under $200. Some of the options I was considering were a little north of $100 but pay a little more and you get a nice pair of Allen Edmonds!

I don't like the sleekness of the Westchester (looks a little feminine in my opinion)

Here are my final choices

I'm down to the Walden and Kenwood in the ~$200 range

Or

Get a pair of throw aways. I looked on eBay and Sebago Caymans can be had pretty cheaply but they don't have my size right now.

Any other cheapo penny loafers that are easy to find on eBay?


----------



## jwlester (Oct 20, 2009)

I found the Sebagos to be not all that bad. I would take the suggestion to contact the AE shoe bank (factory store) in Wisconsin. Ask for Nate and explain what you are looking for. If you know your size, they should be able to find you something. Keep looking at ebay as well. You could always post a WTB message on the trad exchange here. Good luck this summer and in your coming semesters.


----------



## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Check bb bb lhs, it's on sale for 199 bucks. Florsheim.com has the Cabot for $69 minus extra 20% with coupon code next20 or clearance20. You can order a made in USA penny from Rancourt shoe co. In chromexel for about $200, which I think is a supersweet deal. If you will spend $140 on a plasticky shoe, might as well wait and save and get a better shoe.


----------



## teamtc (Jun 21, 2011)

As a budget-conscious law school student, I've found that Bass Logans in tan suit my need. They might be a little on the casual side, but for the price, you're at least avoiding the plastic look.

Find yourself a coupon code, and you can get 'em shipped for around $80. 

~ TC


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

The often deplored (here) "corrected grain" pennies are _not _made of plastic, but rather coated with something plasticky to give them a wipe off shine. Many seem to prefer it. though most here find the perma-shine to look plasticky, and wear hotter because the leathers pores are sealed shut. It's also a way to conceal lower quality leather.Other pennies might be "top grain," i.e. surface flaws are "corrected" by sanding the surface, and the application of surface dyes, as well as separating the outer hide from the inner. Many very fine shoes use this treatment In "full grain" the surface is uncorrected by sanding or dark dyes. A close examination reveals pore-like holes in the surface, from where the animal's hair is removed . The best leathers, with the fewest surface imperfections are reserved for this treatment. You can buy pennies that are not "corrected" with a coat of plastic, often for the same price. This is a good thing to look for in pennies in the $85-135 price range, because they breathe better, take a deeper shine, and can't hide problems in the hide as readily. I've had quite nice examples of this type from Sebago. And yes, they're fine for business such as you describe.


----------



## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

The only sub-$100 loafers that I have seen are the ones from LL Bean.


----------



## DoghouseReilly (Jul 25, 2010)

New Sebago Caymans are frequently available on the Bay for around $55. They seem like a significant value.


----------



## hereformydad (Aug 18, 2009)

After being sold on Allen Edmonds I've kind of decided to move back into the Sebago/Bass/Cole Haan realm. I just don't have the patience to look that hard on the Bay.

I've done some good searching and heard pretty good things about the Sebago Cayman II and the Cole Haan Pinch Penny Loafer, but these threads are 5 years old and I understand a lot has changed.

How do these 2 compare in the budget loafer battle? I was originally going to pay for these shoes out of my pocket but my mom happens to be a fan of Cole Haan and at around $120, I am pretty sure I can get my mom to get me the Pinch Penny.


----------



## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

I have the Cole Haan Pinch Penny, myself. Though corrected grain, I think they look better after being "broken in." And they are very comfortable.


----------



## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I agree about the Cole Haan. It's turned into my go-to penny for business meetings, including today. Definitely a good value.


----------



## brozek (Sep 24, 2006)

For sub-$100 penny loafers, I'm a big fan of the Bass Longwood and Gorham.


----------



## DoghouseReilly (Jul 25, 2010)

hereformydad said:


> I just don't have the patience to look that hard on the Bay.


I typed "sebago cayman" into Google and found a bunch on eBay. User "berkshiresoutlet" sells tons of them. You might want to look for your size.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

If you like AE and you're not adverse to secondhand, Waldens in top condition are frequently available for around $60. They are my go-to loafer.


----------



## calfnkip (Mar 21, 2011)

@Rambler:

Great post. Hope you don’t mind, though, if I take your information about corrected grain and penny loafers just a step or two further.

For tanners, the leather used for traditional penny loafers is referred to as ‘handsewn leather’. It differs from most corrected grain leathers in some important ways. 

Handsewn leathers have traditionally been vegetable tanned rather than chrome tanned. Handsewn leathers have also traditionally been among the heaviest weight (thickness) offered by most tanneries because many penny loafers are unlined to this day. A vegetable tannage gives the leather particular wear and flex qualities and in a well-made shoe produces a characteristic break on the vamp.

As to the ‘plastic’ quality seen in corrected grain and handsewn shoes many forum members find so unattractive, there are reasons for that. Here’s a big one: Handsewn and other corrected grain leathers I first knew over forty years ago aren’t the same as those being produced today because many of the materials commonly used to finish corrected grain leathers back then are simply no longer available to tanners. As a result, the overall look of these leathers has suffered.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

I don't know where you (the OP, that is) are: Hong Kong? The questions in the posts suggest that's not right. Who knows.

Just additional data points:

- I got some decent AE penny loafers for sub $100 at Nordstrom Rack. Presumably not an option in Hong Kong, but it possibly in other places, if you're lucky.

- On the original question (which has, I guess, been answered): penny loafers on an 18-year-old intern in an architecture office? That's no-brainer: perfectly acceptable.


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

calf: your expertise in these matters is always appreciated!


----------



## DoghouseReilly (Jul 25, 2010)

The Rambler said:


> calf: your expertise in these matters is always appreciated!


Agreed. Good post, Calf. I always find your posts informative; they are the epitome of quality over quantity.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Dude, call the AE Shoe Bank like mhj suggested. It's a much better investment.


----------



## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

hockeyinsider said:


> The only sub-$100 loafers that I have seen are the ones from LL Bean.


I meant to say the only ones with non-rubber soles.


----------



## dcjacobson (Jun 25, 2007)

> but my mom happens to be a fan of Cole Haan and at around $120, I am pretty sure I can get my mom to get me the Pinch Penny.


No doubt you will be one of the better-dressed young men on the scene. They are fine for your purpose, and a good value when bought on sale. I have a pair myself.

I hope you can try them on in person. What I have found out, with loafers and other moccasin-style shoes, no matter the brand (so far), is that I have to go down 1/2 size, else the back of the shoe slips off my heel.

Good luck,
Don


----------



## cvac (Aug 6, 2006)

If your office is biz casual, you could probably get away with wearing a pair of Clarks desert boots in beeswax with khakis and an OCBD. I just bought a pair the other day and plan to wear them at my new job next month. Just keep the boots nice and clean and you should be fine. At $80-90 a pop, they're a much better value than most of the cheap penny loafers going around. A lot more comfortable too.

Other than that keep your eyes peeled for random sales on AEs and definitely call the shoe bank. Unfortunately, there was a big sale recently so a lot of the closeout priced shoes there are probably depleted in popular sizes. Check amazon too. You may be able to pick something up for ~$150.

Another option might be LL Bean blucher mocs or suede bucks. 

Now back to cheap pennys. I just picked up a pair of "Heartland" pennys for ~$30 at Marshalls. They're definitely not high end shoes but the leather doesn't have the plastic-y coating that a lot of the Bass and Sebago loafers have. I'm not really a loafer guy, but for the price I figured why not.


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

calfnkip said:


> @Rambler:
> 
> Great post. Hope you don't mind, though, if I take your information about corrected grain and penny loafers just a step or two further.
> 
> ...


Your informed insight is appreciated. Do you happen to know what the plastic surface material* is *that defaces the outsides of lower-end shoes? There have been some threads on how to remove it, and I even managed to deglaze a pair of mall store loafers, but the effort was out of proportion to the value of the result.


----------



## hereformydad (Aug 18, 2009)

I guess I was in Hong Kong when I made this account.

I'll buy the best deal available. Currently there is the Sebago Classic at $56 and the Cole Haan Pinch Penny for $100.

I'll give the AE Shoebank a call.


----------



## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

I recently bought a pair of Florshiems that have that shiny plastic looking finish but are unlined and have leather soles. I love them. The shine has toned down a bit so maybe they aren't corrected leather.


----------



## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I am enjoying this primer. Thank you Rambler, et al. 

I slightly disdain the mid-range ($200-$300) pennies out there, feeling that there are better values to be found both below and above. 

$100-$120 isn't a bad price range for a good looking, do-the-job penny loafer. But I also appreciate, from a great distance, the Alden shell (the 986), which will endure and improve with age, and bring (as I read it) a positively gooey pleasure to its wearers' hearts and feet.

I like the Ski Moc (by J&M), but I think the price is up there around the hated midzone by now


----------



## calfnkip (Mar 21, 2011)

@godan:


Corrected grain leathers are finished using successive layers of resins with colors added to them. In the old days the resins were naturally occurring ones and the colors added to them were almost always pure aniline. Mixing these finishes required expertise in chemistry along with a certain artistic touch on the part of the finisher. 

Today though, environmental regulations specify use of resins that are water soluble and most of those are man-made. Their molecules are generally larger than their natural counterparts which partly contributes to the appearance of the corrected grain leather that ends up in mass market shoes. It’s still possible to make an old style (and to me, more sophisticated) corrected grain leather, but the materials necessary to do it are expensive and the expertise required to apply them isn’t widely available anymore - - most of the guys I knew who were really good with CG are pretty much retired. 

Shoe manufacturers who cater to the mass market want leather that’s cheap and makes shoes that are largely impervious to scuffing and need little or no effort on the part of consumers to maintain a very bright shine. That’s because the retailers they depend on don’t want the shoes coming back. As a result, finishes today are bonded to the leather in ways that defy attempts at removal. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Calfnkip: Thank you. That is more than I, and perhaps others, knew before.


----------



## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Calfknip, I just went back and read through all of your posts. Please, don't ever leave!


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

The reason I asked about specifics of the "Chinese plastic" finish is that I know from the drab and smelly experience of deglazing a pair of shoes how tough that stuff is. I would like to buy a bucket of it to treat field holsters and other leather outdoor gear.


----------



## calfnkip (Mar 21, 2011)

@godan:

Unfortunately, the compounds and mixtures I’ve described aren’t available to consumers. Even the tanneries who buy them (generally in 50 gallon drums) are subject to an entire encyclopedia of regulations on how they’re to be used and stored. And you don’t even want to know what has to happen if any of it gets spilled.


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

There have been a number of threads detailing efforts to remove the finish from corrected grain pennies, using everything from denatured alcohol to E-Z Off oven cleaner. While some claim success, I have yet to see a picture of the final result that looks good, or even ok. If the point is to make the shoes look better, it doesn't work. At best you get something that looks like murky-colored sanded cardboard.


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Calfnkip: Thanks. I feared as much. There is not much serious field gear left made of leather, so it isn't a tragedy. 

Rambler: After a nasty deglazing project, "sanded cardboard" would be an accurate description of what I found underneath.


----------



## David J. Cooper (Apr 26, 2010)

For me Bass Weejuns and all of their short comings, is what is Trad to me. I'm not really sure that AEs or Aldens or Rancourts are. Of course everyone experience is different.

MY Trad is the Weejuns, a Daks blazer, an OCBD from Polo and some J Crew chinos or god forbid some JJ Farmer cords.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

calfnkip said:


> @godan:
> 
> Unfortunately, the compounds and mixtures I've described aren't available to consumers. Even the tanneries who buy them (generally in 50 gallon drums) are subject to an entire encyclopedia of regulations on how they're to be used and stored. And you don't even want to know what has to happen if any of it gets spilled.





The Rambler said:


> There have been a number of threads detailing efforts to remove the finish from corrected grain pennies, using everything from denatured alcohol to E-Z Off oven cleaner. While some claim success, I have yet to see a picture of the final result that looks good, or even ok. If the point is to make the shoes look better, it doesn't work. At best you get something that looks like murky-colored sanded cardboard.


:icon_scratch: As one who has undertaken at least one of those "de-glazing" projects, given the assumed caustic nature of the ingredients comprising a corrected grain finish, should we be taking any 'Herculean' precautions to insure against the negative health effects of using solvents to liquefy and remove said finishes, beyond working in a well ventilated area?

Honestly, the end result (very much as Rambler describes!) of my noble experiment was an almost immediate trip to the Goodwill Store, to rid myself of the shoes. Even the fellow accepting the donations that day was heard to utter a rather audible...Ewwww!


----------



## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

What is it that drives us to such extremes, against all odds? CG pennies are an acceptable, time-honored look. I've had a pair going since I was a kid (different shoes, of course), and still wear em, they're perfect for many real-life situations. I was very interested to learn from calfknip that the quality of the glaze has declined: I had sort of half-noticed that.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
LOL. In my case, I suspect it is too much time on my hands! :crazy:


----------



## calfnkip (Mar 21, 2011)

Eagle2250, you wrote:

_As one who has undertaken at least one of those "de-glazing" projects, given the assumed caustic nature of the ingredients comprising a corrected grain finish, should we be taking any 'Herculean' precautions to insure against the negative health effects of using solvents to liquefy and remove said finishes, beyond working in a well ventilated area?_

My take on this would simply be to not make the attempt at altering or removing the finish in the first place. Tanners can strip a finish at the tannery, but it requires putting the leather back in the 'wet' drum, adding a roster of chemicals that are downright scary and then crossing your fingers hoping you can just make some basic black leather out of the result. It's not something tanners like to do because the re-finished leather is often a problem.

Attempting to do this at home is something a consumer, no matter how knowledgeable he is, probably shouldn't do. As many in this thread have observed, the results leave a great deal to be desired.

And just as a note, I spent over three decades in the leather business and I wouldn't attempt to remove the finish from a pair of handsewns or any other shoe for that matter.

Now on to something else:

@godan
@hardline 42
@Rambler
@DoghouseReilly
@eagle2250

Thanks for the compliments on some of my posts. I just noticed most of them today when I was reviewing this thread.

I'm really glad you guys find them useful.


----------



## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

David J. Cooper said:


> For me Bass Weejuns and all of their short comings, is what is Trad to me. I'm not really sure that AEs or Aldens or Rancourts are. Of course everyone experience is different.
> 
> MY Trad is the Weejuns, a Daks blazer, an OCBD from Polo and some J Crew chinos or god forbid some JJ Farmer cords.


Just a PSA: If you're a size 7, JCP has Burgundy Logans for $40 right now.


----------



## hereformydad (Aug 18, 2009)

Bit of an update on my situation. Nordstrom had the Allen Edmonds Strand in Walnut for $200 and I just couldn't pass that up so I ordered a pair of those. I still feel uncomfortable wearing them for this internship but my Strands purchase definitely ruled out any loafer more than $100. I'm looking hard on eBay for a burgundy penny loafer in 10.5 D and it's harder than it looks.


----------



## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

*Nice score*



hereformydad said:


> Bit of an update on my situation. Nordstrom had the Allen Edmonds Strand in Walnut for $200 and I just couldn't pass that up so I ordered a pair of those. I still feel uncomfortable wearing them for this internship but my Strands purchase definitely ruled out any loafer more than $100. I'm looking hard on eBay for a burgundy penny loafer in 10.5 D and it's harder than it looks.


I also have a pair of AE Strands in Walnut and I consistently get compliments on them.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You made out very well! Be sure to take care of your investment.


----------



## hereformydad (Aug 18, 2009)

Final update. Just got a pair of the Sebago Classics because I don't feel comfortable wearing a pair of shoes valued at $300 around an office as their 18 year old intern. The Sebago Classics were the cheapest leather soled Penny Loafer I could find new in my size. Thanks for all the help!


----------



## Ancient Madder (Jul 21, 2011)

Never with a suit


----------

