# City vs Suburbs



## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

The wife and I are contemplating a move to the burbs for more space for our kiddies (and ourselves). I was wondering if any of you guys have moved from an urban area to a suburban one, and what were the main benefits for you and yours.

I'm hesitant because I want my kids to grow up with the diversity that Brooklyn has to offer, and I really like my neighborhood...lots of great ethnic food, no need for a car (we have one and put a few thousand miles a year on it), we work here, but we have so little space, no dishwasher, no yard, no parking...


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## norton (Dec 18, 2008)

Far be it for me to try to dissuade someone from leaving a city, but before you leave you really should consider the effects of commuting on your family time. What will you do if a kid gets sick at school? Will you be able to make it to their school and sports events? That sort of thing. Ideally, its best if you can find a place where your home, work and the kids schools and activities are all relatively close. As the kids grow you'll be transporting them all over.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

norton said:


> Far be it for me to try to dissuade someone from leaving a city, but before you leave you really should consider the effects of commuting on your family time. What will you do if a kid gets sick at school? Will you be able to make it to their school and sports events? That sort of thing. Ideally, its best if you can find a place where your home, work and the kids schools and activities are all relatively close. As the kids grow you'll be transporting them all over.


This is sound counsel. For that reason, I would note that whether both parents are working can be a factor. One commute may be acceptible in a way that two commutes are not.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*commuting is a drag*

Having commuted by train (between Newark and Highland Park, NJ, and car and train (Downtown LA and Pasadena, CA), I would definitely opt for the city if I were already established there as you are.

Of course, in the greater NY area there is such a range of possibilities that one could certainly find something agreeable. Perhaps a minor rebuild of your cabinetry to accommodate a small washer-dryer would be a good alternative.

Regards,
Gurdon

PS: If you opt to move I'd suggest a location with train service to your work. As much as I like to drive, commuting by train is far better than doing so by car. Just ask Mitchell.


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## obiwan (Feb 2, 2007)

We live in the burb's and I used to commute 100 miles each way 4 days a week. I didn't realize it at the time but it was taking a toll on me and my family.

I left my house at 4am and returned home at 7:30 pm, this was due to my taking public transportation (a bus to a train).

Since I have stopped the commute, I am more relaxed, have lost weight, get more time with my kids and save money on transportation costs.

This is all California based travel and I know the systems in NY are much better. A number of the guys I work with live upstate NY and take the train into grand central near Manhattan 3 days a week, they seem to not be bothered by it and then there is the bar car you could partake of on the way home...


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks for the travel tips guys. My wife and I are both teachers in the same school, so we commute together, although now its a 4 minute commute. We would prob go to Jersey and find jobs on *eek* Staten Island and deal with a 30 minute commute each way.

I'd really love to stay here, but space is so limited. We aren't even allowed to have a washer/dryer in our co-op which would greatly help. There is a communal one in the basement of a neighboring building so the baby does have laundry when we need it.

Just something about being able to have a basement, with workout machines and spare rooms seems so great, but I guess if we are there less for the kids, it would suck. My mom and dad always worked late and it was one of the things I still resent as an adult, and vowed never to do to my children. Its just so hard in such a tight space...


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## Mannix (Nov 24, 2008)

Well if you move to the suburbs you won't be forced to reduce your wardrobe as you previously thought. 

I've always lived in the suburbs, and quite like it. Although I really don't have anything to compare it to.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Why not look for a job in a small town, then the commute will be short. Some people are glued to the big city. Country living is a different kind of living and it certainly is not for everybody, as the big city isn't for everybody. Schools are in nearly every town, so it wouldn't be to hard to find a nice new place to live.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I lived in Memphis during college and loved it. It was great having all my favorite stores, restaurants and nightlife within 10 minutes. When I got married we decided to move to the burbs, which for us is actually north Mississippi. I miss being so close to my extracurricular stuff, but I enjoy my time at home much more then I ever enjoyed living in a small apartment in Memphis. Our neighborhood has 2 controlled access community pools, a 10 acre park with a lake and walking trails. The neighborhood architecture is "Charleston style" with a good mixture of brick and wood (painted light or pastel colors) and everyone has a front porch with rocking chairs. It really is a lovely place. 

I guess my advice is fairly straight forward. If you can afford to live in a great neighborhood with a nice size house in the city, then that is definitely the way to go. If you are like me, and you appreciate how much more you can get for your money out in the burbs, then I think it's worth looking into. I think the most important factor is how much you enjoy your current home/potential home and current n'hood/potential n'hood. Everything else will work itself out.


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

WA said:


> Why not look for a job in a small town, then the commute will be short. Some people are glued to the big city. Country living is a different kind of living and it certainly is not for everybody, as the big city isn't for everybody. Schools are in nearly every town, so it wouldn't be to hard to find a nice new place to live.


We've actually both thought about that. We looked into New Hampshire, but the cost of living in New England is comparable to NYC and the teachers salaries much less. We both make upwards of 60k already, so we'd take a huge cut wherever we went.

We've also looked in Savannah, GA and we absolutely love it there, and the housing market is perfect as houses could be gotten in the historic district for a song, but again we'd take a huge cut.

I really love the options of things to do here, really the food. Around the corner from me (literally) i have an Italian place, three pizzerias, a Mexican, Polish, 3 Middle Eastern, a Spanish (continental), and we used to have an English Chip Shop until it recently closed up. That's only in the 2 blocks either side of ours...if you walk a few more, your options are ever increasing.

We also are comfortable in our jobs, which is very dangerous. As NYC workers with 8 years in, we are safe from any layoffs, excessing, cuts, and make very good money. One option we do have is to transfer to Staten Island schools and move to central NJ, which again would add to commuting time which right now is nothing. But thats not exactly rural living.

Then we have the prospect of trying to sell our co-op in this market which won't be easy. We'd need at least a $20,000 profit after broker fees to be able to afford the "next place". Anyway, I like the suggestions, comments, and dialogue. I don't want to discuss with either of our parents, friends, or colleagues, and your comments provide a helpful base to explore more deeply how we really feel about it.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

As a city boy myself, I think you'll find the suburbs stultifying - there are very good reasons the word "suburban" has come to mean "provincial and mindless".

Brooklyn is such a great town - as you say, layered in diversity and interest - and I don't think there's a suburb (or "exurb") anywhere that can match it. It has a good library system also, which to me (at least) is a big factor in the livability of a place. Suburban libraries are a sad joke, virtually without exception. I say stay, since you're already established there.

Besides, Ikea has plenty of tight-space solutions 

DH


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## MinnMD (May 6, 2008)

*Short commutes*

I much prefer short commutes. It's more time with the family.

MinnMD


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Some places the cost of living is less which means that a cut in salary may still leave you with more spending money. I think it is not how much you make, but how much you $pend, or, sometimes not spending but enjoyment. Money does not always = enjoyment. There can be a down side to less money; a bigger salary means bigger house payments which means more capital later when retirement arrives, and bigger SS checks later. Living next to ones enjoyments is always nice. Many country kids move to the big cities and a few city kids move to the country depending on which pleasures in life they like most. You may want to stay awhile longer and put money into an investment for later house payments until you know more about your childs needs. For example, if your child is athletic he/she needs and outlet for that, but many children are not that but something else, such as muscial or literature or art or science and etc, where the big city may have better options. Ethnic means more interesting cultureal foods. A cousin of mine told about this one school that became mexican and some white parents moved their children out because they wanted their children to have an American background and not a Mexican background (many mexicans in CA and Texas simply are not become Americans (third generation and the predominant language is spanish- something is clearly wrong with that)). Time is on your side when you are young.


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## RobertAllen (Nov 11, 2008)

rgrossicone said:


> The wife and I are contemplating a move to the burbs for more space for our kiddies (and ourselves). I was wondering if any of you guys have moved from an urban area to a suburban one, and what were the main benefits for you and yours.
> 
> I'm hesitant because I want my kids to grow up with the diversity that Brooklyn has to offer, and I really like my neighborhood...lots of great ethnic food, no need for a car (we have one and put a few thousand miles a year on it), we work here, but we have so little space, no dishwasher, no yard, no parking...


My family moved to the "suburbs" a couple of years ago and do not regret it a bit. If we need "diversity", the city is available in less than 30 minutes in terms of restaurants, that is what you mean by diversity?


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## Scrumhalf (Dec 20, 2007)

3 words - DON'T DO IT!!! You are in Brooklyn, man! I can't think of a more perfect place to be - great city, hop on the subway to Manhattan anytime, convenience.... the list goes on. Plus the diversity that you mention. The suburbs are mind numbing places, full of McMansions and stultifying mediocrity. Don't do it unless you like to get in your car every time you need to buy a gallon of milk.


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## chava (Mar 17, 2009)

*commute*



Scrumhalf said:


> 3 words - DON'T DO IT!!! You are in Brooklyn, man! I can't think of a more perfect place to be - great city, hop on the subway to Manhattan anytime, convenience.... the list goes on. Plus the diversity that you mention. The suburbs are mind numbing places, full of McMansions and stultifying mediocrity. Don't do it unless you like to get in your car every time you need to buy a gallon of milk.


I am in southern california. we use cars. My commute is 17 miles/20 minutes max. Any longer and I wouldn't do it. If your family is important to you, don't waste your time commuting. The only thing we have is time... and none of us knows how much or how little, so use it wisely.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Less bespoke = larger apartment?


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

I lived in the near north suburbs of Atlanta for seven years. I'd find myself leaving work (even farther north) and passing the exit for home to go do something in town practically every day; I felt a stronger connection to the city than I did to where I actually lived.

After I bought my townhouse, I got a new job that was walking distance from my old apartment. Which would have been nice, but I wanted to live near where I actually _lived_. I wanted to be convenient to the restaurants, the theaters, the shops, everything I did when I wasn't at work.

You've got the best of both worlds - an exciting place to live and a short commute. I'd consider finding a larger place in Brooklyn before giving it up for Mr. Blanding's dream house.

Besides, wouldn't you be losing your tenure if you get another job somewhere else?


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Reservations*

I did not feel entirely comfortable in New Jersey. I don't think I would make the move you describe. People were nice to us. It has many positive attributes and a rich texture. (I managed to watch several minutes of a Sopranos episode and felt much nostalgia for NJ. But, also had the old reservations stirred up.)

Take the tubes to Newark, ride the subway to Branch Brook Park. Walk around in East Orange. Drive to Piscataway and stand on a corner. If all that feels good and you'd like your children to grow up there with those accents and attitudes, then, OK make the move.

Bear in mind, however, that I am a westerner, frequently wear Levi's, and on rare occasions cowboy boots.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

RobertAllen said:


> My family moved to the "suburbs" a couple of years ago and do not regret it a bit. If we need "diversity", the city is available in less than 30 minutes in terms of restaurants, that is what you mean by diversity?


For me its one of the great things about diversity (I love to eat). But I want my daughter (and next one) to grow up with a group of friends that aren't homogenized. I want her to expand her mind by being around people, and families with so many different ideas on life. Yes, the food's great too, but the culture is the most important part.

We spoke with a financial advisor and now would not be the time for a move anywhere for us. But I think we've settled on the idea that we are in a great place for our children. Sure there are some drawbacks, less space, noise, more expensive groceries, but we are happy. The commute will probably be the biggest reason we stayed. Once our kids are out of daycare and into public schools (in 5 years) we'll have $2200 more a month in our pockets. On top of refinancing our mortgage we should be able to afford a nice, larger place (maybe even an actual house) by the time the kids are in middle school.

As far as the bespoke goes...sure, I had two jackets made and about 10 shirts in the past 2 years, I don't think that the $3500 I spent on that would mean the difference between 700 Sq Feet and 1200 Sq Feet. nd it makes me happy...:icon_smile_big:


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Distinction should be made between the country and the suburbs: they are totally different things right now, although the suburbs are _marketed_ as the country, and at the pace that we are raping the land in North America there won't be much distinction in a few decades.

I find people who live in surburbs are boing people, with little or no imagination. This is 100% true among my circle of friends. I enjoy my friends who live in the country or city more than my suburban friends. Something about the suburbs encourages insularity and self-centredness. The suburbanites talk about their kids, their lawns, their kids, their kitchen renovations, their kids, their day care, their f***ing kids. But that assumes good jobs and a spouse. For single people the suburbs are a disaster: you will NOT meet interesting single people in the suburbs at the same rate you will in a city.

It's also worth noting that the "white flight" phenomenon was true at one time, but here in the GTA it's slowly reversing and soon enough the suburbs will be the new urban ghettos. In fact, that trend is evident now.

I can see how city dwellers think they'll be getting a great deal on a house in the suburbs, but they aren't costing things out properly. I recommend sitting down and doing a full money analysis comparison of where you are now vs. the suburbs. Don't forget to factor in the following:
- need for a second car
- wear-and-tear on both cars
- gas prices (probably gonna go up again this summer)
- longer commutes means less time at home raising your children
- less time at home means more time at expensive day-care (latch-key kids?)
- need to buy more furniture (bigger living space to be filled)
- zoning bylaws which restrict what colour you can paint your garage door
- fewer high-level jobs for professionals
- bigger public schools (couple thousand kids)
- busing issues in some areas
- fewer cultural amenites (libraries, theatres, opera, etc.)
- limited shopping selections (each intersection has the same stores)
- waste time cutting postage-stamp sized lawn
- house maintenance (it's your roof, not the property mgt company's roof)
- etc. etc.

It's hard to put a price on those things, but you will when you realize you have to drive an hour from your suburban home to those things. Or, you can do what most people in the suburbs do: give up and spend your evening watching television.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

rgrossicone said:


> For me its one of the great things about diversity (I love to eat). But I want my daughter (and next one) to grow up with a group of friends that aren't homogenized. I want her to expand her mind by being around people, and families with so many different ideas on life. Yes, the food's great too, but the culture is the most important part.
> 
> We spoke with a financial advisor and now would not be the time for a move anywhere for us. But I think we've settled on the idea that we are in a great place for our children. Sure there are some drawbacks, less space, noise, more expensive groceries, but we are happy. The commute will probably be the biggest reason we stayed. Once our kids are out of daycare and into public schools (in 5 years) we'll have $2200 more a month in our pockets. On top of refinancing our mortgage we should be able to afford a nice, larger place (maybe even an actual house) by the time the kids are in middle school.
> 
> As far as the bespoke goes...sure, I had two jackets made and about 10 shirts in the past 2 years, I don't think that the $3500 I spent on that would mean the difference between 700 Sq Feet and 1200 Sq Feet. and it makes me happy...:icon_smile_big:


It sounds like you've done your homework. I think you've made the right choice, both for yourself and your family.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I think you'd be wise to stay put for now, no doubt. But I also think there are usually many levels of suburbs. I live in a small town in North Mississippi, which is a suburb of Memphis, TN. I live less then a mile from the Tennessee and Memphis border, but I'm a good 20-25 minute drive from the CBD of Memphis, which is actually East Memphis and not downtown. I'm definitely a tried and true suburbanite. 

However, most large cities in the South have suburbs that are essentially just extensions of nice parts of cities. The nicest part of Memphis is East Memphis. You can drive right through it into a town called Germantown and not know you've left Memphis city limits. Nashville has Brentwood. Birmingham has Hoover. 

My point is that, at least in the south, there are suburbs that are right outside the city that have the neighborhood feel of cities, but with more affordable housing, lower taxes, better public schools, and better law enforcement. They aren't just towns with chain restaurants, Walmart, and no trees.


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

nolan50410 said:


> My point is that, at least in the south, there are suburbs that are right outside the city that have the neighborhood feel of cities, but with more affordable housing, lower taxes, better public schools, and better law enforcement. They aren't just towns with chain restaurants, Walmart, and no trees.


Really if you think about it, thats what Brooklyn is (but with the same taxes). Although what is "more affordable" next to Manhattan is pretty damn expensive. There are fully attached homes in my neighborhood that easily sell for upwards of $1,000,000...in places like Park Slope and Williamsburg those prices are 50% higher.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

rgrossicone said:


> Really if you think about it, thats what Brooklyn is (but with the same taxes). Although what is "more affordable" next to Manhattan is pretty damn expensive. There are fully attached homes in my neighborhood that easily sell for upwards of $1,000,000...in places like Park Slope and Williamsburg those prices are 50% higher.


And I thought Chicago was expensive. I bought my 1900 sf. 3 bed, 2 bath house with 2 car garage for under 200K. My how things are so different in different parts of this country.


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## RobertAllen (Nov 11, 2008)

rgrossicone said:


> For me its one of the great things about diversity (I love to eat). But I want my daughter (and next one) to grow up with a group of friends that aren't homogenized. I want her to expand her mind by being around people, and families with so many different ideas on life. Yes, the food's great too, but the culture is the most important part.


I also have a child and one issue that sometimes comes up in the diversity context is finding a school. Our son will be attending a suburban public school, but I have quite a few friends who still live in the city who celebrate diversity more than I tend to, who curiously literally stand in line for "magnet schools" in the city rather than have their children attend the public school they are zoned to. I say this is curious because the zone school typically, if not always, has more diversity than the magnet school. Still others who celebrate diversity a whole bunch have taken the inexplicable step of enrolling their children in private schools, which have very little diversity while others, still celebrating diversity, are contemplating the unusual move of moving out of the city (to the suburbs) for public schools, which, as mentioned, have very little diversity. Finally, adding to the confusion, these parents who stand in line hoping to get their kids in a magnet school, or enroll them in a private school, or even worse, move out of the city, still vociferously claim allegiance to diversity and when I ask them to explain (since I don't understand), look at me with a bit of confusion (or perhaps contempt?)


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

RobertAllen said:


> I also have a child and one issue that sometimes comes up in the diversity context is finding a school. Our son will be attending a suburban public school, but I have quite a few friends who still live in the city who celebrate diversity more than I tend to, who curiously literally stand in line for "magnet schools" in the city rather than have their children attend the public school they are zoned to. I say this is curious because the zone school typically, if not always, has more diversity than the magnet school. Still others who celebrate diversity a whole bunch have taken the inexplicable step of enrolling their children in private schools, which have very little diversity while others, still celebrating diversity, are contemplating the unusual move of moving out of the city (to the suburbs) for public schools, which, as mentioned, have very little diversity. Finally, adding to the confusion, these parents who stand in line hoping to get their kids in a magnet school, or enroll them in a private school, or even worse, move out of the city, still vociferously claim allegiance to diversity and when I ask them to explain (since I don't understand), look at me with a bit of confusion (or perhaps contempt?)


It's the exact same here in Memphis and in Birmingham, Jackson, etc. In the south, most urban public schools are just horrible. The target or "magnet" schools are usually pretty good, especially with their honors courses. But in the South, for the most part, if you want your child to have a good education while remaining safe and happy at school, the only options are suburban public or private. I really wish that wasn't the case, but it is.


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## RobertAllen (Nov 11, 2008)

nolan50410 said:


> It's the exact same here in Memphis and in Birmingham, Jackson, etc. In the south, most urban public schools are just horrible. The target or "magnet" schools are usually pretty good, especially with their honors courses. But in the South, for the most part, if you want your child to have a good education while remaining safe and happy at school, the only options are suburban public or private. I really wish that wasn't the case, but it is.


Indeed. And my previous comments concerning "diversity" were made with tongue firmly in cheek. And, as a fellow Southerner, I tend to not want to target my area of the country solely, because from conversations with those in other parts of the country, the same can be said re: public schools.

As a parent, the important things to me for my child is that he be safe, that he receive a good education, that he have opportunities to take part in a variety of activities, and, frankly, "diversity" in my opinion is the biggest scam perpetrated on America with economic consequences comparable to the sub-prime mess and other consequences that are immeasureable. If he received a good education, is safe and has opportunities to partake in variety of extracirricular activities, I could really care less whether his friends are "homogeneous". And, for those who say that is important to them with their child, don't be a hypocrite. Don't enroll your kid in a magnet or private school, don't "manuever" to get them into a "different" school, enroll them in the public school for which they are zoned if "diversity" truly means that much to you and is not just something you knee-jerk celebrate because you are told (over and over and over and over again) that you must celebrate it.


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

RobertAllen said:


> Indeed. And my previous comments concerning "diversity" were made with tongue firmly in cheek. And, as a fellow Southerner, I tend to not want to target my area of the country solely, because from conversations with those in other parts of the country, the same can be said re: public schools.
> 
> As a parent, the important things to me for my child is that he be safe, that he receive a good education, that he have opportunities to take part in a variety of activities, and, frankly, "diversity" in my opinion is the biggest scam perpetrated on America with economic consequences comparable to the sub-prime mess and other consequences that are immeasureable. If he received a good education, is safe and has opportunities to partake in variety of extracirricular activities, I could really care less whether his friends are "homogeneous". And, for those who say that is important to them with their child, don't be a hypocrite. Don't enroll your kid in a magnet or private school, don't "manuever" to get them into a "different" school, enroll them in the public school for which they are zoned if "diversity" truly means that much to you and is not just something you knee-jerk celebrate because you are told (over and over and over and over again) that you must celebrate it.


I think diversity up here in Brooklyn is a little different than diversity in the South. I hope I don't come across as an ignorant Yankee here (cause I'm a Met fan) but I've spent lots of time in Charlseton, Hilton Head Island and Savannah the past five summers. These places tend to still be very segregated with clear borders between the "white" side of town and the "black" side. I also think in the South, for whatever reason (at least in the samller cities I've mentioned but would assume most except Atlanta, Dallas and maybe Houston) that there are fewer ethnic groups. In Brooklyn, and the neighborhood where I live, there are no majorities or minorities, in the Websters sense of the word. We have Northern European, Southern European, Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, South Asian, East Asian, Central American, Caribbean, South American, West African and African American. No one of those groups outnumbers the others where I live, and to me that's diversity. I think in many parts of the south diversity is substituted for "black". We also don't really have the poverty that exists in some of these urban and rural southern communities, which I think has more to do with what makes a neighborhood rough. Gentrification of northern cities has put hipster neighborhoods right alongside impoverished ones, forcing those residents out into the far, affordable suburbs...(someone did mention the new "white flight" earlier).

Eventhough its been one hundred and fifty years since the War of Secession, in many ways the north and south are different worlds still.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

rgrossicone said:


> Eventhough its been one hundred and fifty years since the War of Secession, in many ways the north and south are different worlds still.


Very different worlds indeed. If you could take someone who has lived in Brooklyn their whole life, and drive them around the different parts of Charleston, Savannah, Nashville, Memphis, Birmingham, Jackson etc., they would have a completely different opinion of "how far we've come" on the race issue.


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## RobertAllen (Nov 11, 2008)

rgrossicone said:


> No one of those groups outnumbers the others where I live, and to me that's diversity. I think in many parts of the south diversity is substituted for "black". We also don't really have the poverty that exists in some of these urban and rural southern communities, which I think has more to do with what makes a neighborhood rough.
> Eventhough its been one hundred and fifty years since the War of Secession, in many ways the north and south are different worlds still.


Again, I can not speak to your "neighborhood", but would dispute the idea that "diversity" has a unique definition in the south than it does elsewhere. I would gather that as far as (the University of) Michigan is concerned, diversity has the same definition as in Tennessee. Similarly (and closer to you), I believe the firefighters in Hartford (?) Connecticut who have a case pending in the SCOUTS have the same definition of "diversity" as those in Georgia. The same for the State of California's various "disputes" including, but not limited to, there public university system.
Perhaps it is my legal training, but the "record" is fairly clear that while "diversity" is given different definitions, in reality (and not just the South) the true definition is quite clear?


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

RobertAllen said:


> Again, I can not speak to your "neighborhood", but would dispute the idea that "diversity" has a unique definition in the south than it does elsewhere. I would gather that as far as (the University of) Michigan is concerned, diversity has the same definition as in Tennessee. Similarly (and closer to you), I believe the firefighters in Hartford (?) Connecticut who have a case pending in the SCOUTS have the same definition of "diversity" as those in Georgia. The same for the State of California's various "disputes" including, but not limited to, there public university system.
> Perhaps it is my legal training, but the "record" is fairly clear that while "diversity" is given different definitions, in reality (and not just the South) the true definition is quite clear?


I hope when you speak in person that you don't use those "air quotes". As far as I'm concerned, and form what I've seen, in the South "diversity" means "black". From what I've seen the South is still very segregated, albeit not by law these days, but by socio-economics.

As far as diversity in my neighborhood, and my city, its exactly what I spoke of before, no quotation marks needed.


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## spudnik99 (Apr 27, 2007)

*City*

+1 for living in a City


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I agree with rgross. It doesn't take a sociologist to know that Brooklyn is full of ethnic diversity. Maybe more then anywhere else in the States. He's also pretty spot on about our racial tension. Our cities don't have neighborhoods with equal amounts of whites, black, hispanics, asians, arabs, etc. In Memphis all of those groups have their own neighborhood that they dominate. It's not like there aren't good white people or black people who see the problem and want to do something. There are, they just know that they alone aren't enough to heal the wounds of our history.


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## Beau (Oct 4, 2007)

The 'burbs are where its at. I would say leave the northeast and come to the Carolinas. We have many NYers here. Diversity - yes. Ethnic foods - yes. Great shopping - yes. Most importantly, we have an affordable cost of living for housing and taxes. 

Charlotte, NC is a fine southern city. It is a smaller version of Atlanta, yet it lacks very little. We have lakes for boating in summer. We're three hours from the beach. We have pro football and basketball, museums, opera, symphony, great restaurants, and four distinct seasons.

My wife's cousins are from out on Long Island and they live in a new neighborhood where 90% of the families are from NY or NJ. It is crazy.

The hardest part about a move to the 'burbs is adjusting to not having everything you used to have at your fingertips. It takes at least two years to get over it; at least that is how long it took me when I moved from DC.

I wouldn't go back for three times my annual earnings. Really.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Beau said:


> The hardest part about a move to the 'burbs is adjusting to not having everything you used to have at your fingertips. It takes at least two years to get over it; at least that is how long it took me when I moved from DC.quote]
> 
> This is very true. I've been in the burbs for almost 3 years, and I think I'm just now getting used to driving 25-30 minutes to that great restaurant on Saturday night or to the great men's store just to waste some time.


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

Beau said:


> The 'burbs are where its at. I would say leave the northeast and come to the Carolinas. We have many NYers here. Diversity - yes. Ethnic foods - yes. Great shopping - yes. Most importantly, we have an affordable cost of living for housing and taxes.
> 
> Charlotte, NC is a fine southern city. It is a smaller version of Atlanta, yet it lacks very little. We have lakes for boating in summer. We're three hours from the beach. We have pro football and basketball, museums, opera, symphony, great restaurants, and four distinct seasons.
> 
> ...


I have several friends who have moved to the Carolinas. I just think in my industry (education) I wouldn't be able to earn as much as I would where I'm at.

i also see places like Carolina, and Florida, with tons of transplanted NYers as newer versions of Staten Island. SI is a very homogenous place. Its sometyhing like 65% Italian American, mostly those who fled the diversity of Brooklyn (and its ill-affordability) for a more vanilla (albeit vanilla gelato) place for less price. I do see the value in places like that though (including SI) because to some the space is very important.


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## RobertAllen (Nov 11, 2008)

rgrossicone said:


> I hope when you speak in person that you don't use those "air quotes". As far as I'm concerned, and form what I've seen, in the South "diversity" means "black". From what I've seen the South is still very segregated, albeit not by law these days, but by socio-economics.
> 
> As far as diversity in my neighborhood, and my city, its exactly what I spoke of before, no quotation marks needed.


Diversity means black in the South, in California, in Michigan, in Connecticut, and most parts in-between.

I have a sister who moved recently from Queens to L.I. and ironically used some of the same language you use, i.e. "diversity" (which ALWAYS should be used with air quotes) and homogeneous. I quizzed her on the quality of public schools (better in L.I.), neighborhood safety (better in L.I.) and opportunities for parent/child activities (at least the same, if not better, in L.I.). I am very confident her family will get over the lack of "diversity" although I am sure her friend in the city will still tell her how much they love "diversity" when they get together.


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## Thermactor (Feb 8, 2009)

By all means, stay in the city. The burbs will suck the life out of you. Besides, nothing is as fun as a ride on the F-train. Besides, isn't Brooklyn already a suburb? People from Brooklyn commute to the only part of NYC that matters, Manhattan.


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27 (Feb 23, 2008)

Another vote for staying in the city. I live in a great neighborhood just a few miles north of downtown Chicago and there is just something about walking out my front door and having everything right there. Cabs, public transportation, restaurants, bars, shops and so on. Of course, I am a 28 year old single guy so take it for what it's worth. I understand why people move to the burbs once they have children.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> Another vote for staying in the city. I live in a great neighborhood just a few miles north of downtown Chicago and there is just something about walking out my front door and having everything right there. Cabs, public transportation, restaurants, bars, shops and so on. Of course, I am a 28 year old single guy so take it for what it's worth. I understand why people move to the burbs once they have children.


My favortie aunt lives in Old Town. She used to live in Gold Coast but could buy more for her money in the new neighborhood. I visit often; lovely city.


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27 (Feb 23, 2008)

nolan50410 said:


> My favortie aunt lives in Old Town. She used to live in Gold Coast but could buy more for her money in the new neighborhood. I visit often; lovely city.


I'm actually right on the border of Old Town and the southern part of Lincoln Park. I agree it's a great area. Yes, the Gold Coast is very pricey!


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## newtothis (Apr 13, 2009)

rgrossicone said:


> For me its one of the great things about diversity (I love to eat). But I want my daughter (and next one) to grow up with a group of friends that aren't homogenized. I want her to expand her mind by being around people, and families with so many different ideas on life. Yes, the food's great too, but the culture is the most important part./quote]
> 
> So, I guess you're looking at the diverse benefits of Detroit, Camden, Baltimore, etc.. right?


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## newtothis (Apr 13, 2009)

nolan50410 said:


> However, most large cities in the South have suburbs that are essentially just extensions of nice parts of cities. The nicest part of Memphis is East Memphis. You can drive right through it into a town called Germantown and not know you've left Memphis city limits. Nashville has Brentwood. Birmingham has Hoover.


You would have to be driving blind to not realize you're in Germantown from the disaster, crime-ridden Memphis.

I have a sister who goes to the University of Memphis and not only has living in Memphis made her less positive to the 'benefits' of diversity, she drives all the way from Mud Island to Germantown to do her shopping because the local supermarkets and stores nearby all have armed guards and crime, rape & murder problems.

Maybe Nashville ->Brentwood, Franklin I can see... but Memphis->Germantown. No way.



RobertAllen said:


> Our son will be attending a suburban public school, but I have quite a few friends who still live in the city who celebrate diversity more than I tend to, who curiously literally stand in line for "magnet schools" in the city rather than have their children attend the public school they are zoned to.


It seems the liberal who 'celebrates diversity' are also the ones who flee to be least effected by it. Those same 'friends' would never send the kids to those 'diverse' public schools... and really by 'diversity' it seems to mean a school that has a large Black or Hispanic population and to me that is hardly 'diversity.' Unfortunately, in this country 'diverse' is someone having a different skin colour.

Those liberals who tout 'diversity' are the same ones who flee to areas least affected by it. Similar to how the anti-apartheid champions in South Africa fled out of the country once things fell apart once it ended.


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## norton (Dec 18, 2008)

newtothis said:


> You would have to be driving blind to not realize you're in Germantown from the disaster, crime-ridden Memphis.
> 
> I have a sister who goes to the University of Memphis and not only has living in Memphis made her less positive to the 'benefits' of diversity, she drives all the way from Mud Island to Germantown to do her shopping because the local supermarkets and stores nearby all have armed guards and crime, rape & murder problems.
> 
> ...


This is similar to my experience. Our town schools went through a multi year discrimination lawsuit where the federal court was running the schools until their method of funding was found to be unconstitutional under state law. By that time the schools were broke, but several magnet schools had been built. Now, conservatives send their kids to private schools and liberals and teachers (but I repeat myself) send their kids to the magnet schools, if they can get in, and to private schools if they can't.

The regular public schools are far worse than before the law suit, but that may be true in most communities.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> Distinction should be made between the country and the suburbs: they are totally different things right now, although the suburbs are _marketed_ as the country, and at the pace that we are raping the land in North America there won't be much distinction in a few decades.
> 
> I find people who live in surburbs are boing people, with little or no imagination. This is 100% true among my circle of friends. I enjoy my friends who live in the country or city more than my suburban friends. Something about the suburbs encourages insularity and self-centredness. The suburbanites talk about their kids, their lawns, their kids, their kitchen renovations, their kids, their day care, their f***ing kids. But that assumes good jobs and a spouse. For single people the suburbs are a disaster: you will NOT meet interesting single people in the suburbs at the same rate you will in a city.
> 
> ...


I suppose I resemble this remark, becuase my move to the suburbs was all about the f***ing kids. :icon_smile: Of course, my urban area was/is New Orleans. So some of the issues the good Doctor listed cut both ways. New Orleans has more zoning laws than my suburban community, the cost of living (square footage, taxes, daycare, groceries, gas, etc) is far less on my side of the lake than on the south shore. I am a number cruncher, and I did assign values to things like my commuting time, gas, vehicles, etc, and found that I am far better off living outside of New Orleans. I even included in my calculation a few weeknds a year (Mardi Gras, Jazz Fest, random night in the FQ) in hotels across the lake to make up for the dearth of cultural amenities (bars in walking distance). Of course, urban areas vary greatly, and each of us has to consider our personal work and financial situation.

As for diversity, I have far more of that in my suburb than I ever had in NOLA. In New Orleans, there are far more ethnic categories than in most Southern cities, but they all cling together in little communities. I would have never had black, white, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. neighbors, but I do living in the burbs.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

I've lived in suburbs, center city, on a farm, in a semi-city-center (Burbank, CA), European big city center townhouse, and in a farm town...

Diversity is ridiculously overrated.

First, your kids will survive. Everyone in this world lacks SOME kind of diversity until the day they die: the world just isn't small enough for everyone to know everything and get a hold of everything.

Big cities are great for culture, but they are expensive and generally brutal. The money you spend for all the taxes and living could be used to build a fortune quickly.

Suburbs, where I lived my first 25 years, are utterly bland. The people are driven completely by product and what the neighbors are doing. It's pretty evil at the core unless you find a group of people with your kind of lifestyle.

Small towns and farms are really cool, where people are generally individual and law is held up because everyone has a few guns and generally well defined boundaries. It is deprived of culture and finer things, but cheap and usually quite personable. Dirty, though, dirt wise, not smut. People dress like crap....as if most people don't these days?

My advice--live close to work. Live as tight and small as possible. Save as much money as possible. Your kids will survive and do ok. If you can tolerate the living conditions, excellent. Spend 10 or 20 years saving and saving, because you'll need it. Autos are one of the most ridiculous expenses around, so drive cheap and drive little--commutes cost you time and money.


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## newtothis (Apr 13, 2009)

Preu Pummel said:


> Small towns and farms are really cool, where people are generally individual and law is held up because everyone has a few guns and generally well defined boundaries. It is deprived of culture and finer things, but cheap and usually quite personable.


How are they 'deprived of culture'? Because most of the people are White conservatives?

From what you've described, those small-towns sound like they very well be filled with culture... classic Americana where you can leave your doors unlocked, you know your neighbors, and their is a local community and trust.


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## amplifiedheat (Jun 9, 2008)

nolan50410 said:


> However, most large cities in the South have suburbs that are essentially just extensions of nice parts of cities. The nicest part of Memphis is East Memphis. You can drive right through it into a town called Germantown and not know you've left Memphis city limits. Nashville has Brentwood.


You haven't spent much time in Brentwood, have you? The place is housing, office space, and chain stores--and quite insulated from the city.


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