# Number of buttons on a jacket sleeve



## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

What is the 'correct' trad* number of buttons on a jacket sleeve? The more I see jackets with only two buttons (with a button-sized space between them), the more I like the look. And the more I look at my jackets with three buttons on them, the goofier I think they look. 

I do believe I read somewhere (Flusser or Boyer, I'm assuming) that a jacket should have either two or four buttons on each sleeve. Four seems a little much, at least for a blazer or odd jacket, but I can certainly get on board with two. Would it be reasonable to take a small knife or seam ripper to the middle button of my 3-sleeve-button jackets?


*I say 'trad' not out of desire to fit into the uniform, as it were, but curious about the opinions of those on this forum.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I wear four. I find that if you have (L)ong sleeves four looks better and if you have (S)hort sleeves two looks better. I would say three for (R)egular, but that seems out of step with your post and Flusser. I think I see a lot of three-button sleeves around; perhaps not. I think the amount of buttons gives some visual balance along the lines of cuff lengths (1.5", 1.75", 2") and the amount of break for trousers based on height. YMMV. Is Flusser Trad? I thought he was into the modern anglo cut?


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

one or two. I have short arms.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

ksinc said:


> I wear four. I find that if you have (L)ong sleeves four looks better and if you have (S)hort sleeves two looks better. I would say three for (R)egular, but that seems out of step with your post and Flusser. I think I see a lot of three-button sleeves around; perhaps not. I think the amount of buttons gives some visual balance along the lines of cuff lengths (1.5", 1.75", 2") and the amount of break for trousers based on height. YMMV. Is Flusser Trad? I thought he was into the modern anglo cut?


Three buttons, as far as I've seen, seems to be the norm. Still, I do think it looks a bit off for whatever reason. As to whether or not Flusser is trad, he seems to have some trad leaning, or at least inspiration. In one of his books (Clothes and the Man, I believe) is a section with pictures of various outfits, including button-downs, tweeds, and madras, among others. I know for certain that some of the items came from Chipp, and I want to say that some came from J. Press, though that may just be wishful thinking.


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## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

Sacks should have two cuff buttons whereas two-button darted coats should carry three. Double-breasted are the only coats that should have four buttons, which itself is a holdover from the Royal Navy.

As you'll notice I, and Anglo-American tradition, left out three button coats for the rather evident fact of them looking like crap.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

Desk Jockey said:


> Sacks should have two cuff buttons whereas two-button darted coats should carry three. Double-breasted are the only coats that should have four buttons, which itself is a holdover from the Royal Navy.
> 
> *As you'll notice I, and Anglo-American tradition, left out three button coats for the rather evident fact of them looking like crap*.


A curious assertion, as any proper sack will have three buttons.

There is no hard and fast rule about how many buttons are appropriate. Most suits these days, irrespective of the of number of buttons on the chest, come with four. It's a matter of personal taste. Wear 'em as you please. The only two button with space in between model I've ever had was a DB from BB. Seems like credible evidence of it as an American look.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> A curious assertion, as any proper sack will have three buttons.
> 
> There is no hard and fast rule about how many buttons are appropriate. Most suits these days, irrespective of the of number of buttons on the chest, come with four. It's a matter of personal taste. Wear 'em as you please. The only two button with space in between model I've ever had was a DB from BB. Seems like credible evidence of it as an American look.


I have a blazer and a suit from BB (both sacks) with two buttons on the sleeve. I don't particularly like the look. I think the posting about buttons relative to sleeve length makes the most sense.


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## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> A curious assertion, as any proper sack will have three buttons.
> 
> There is no hard and fast rule about how many buttons are appropriate. Most suits these days, irrespective of the of number of buttons on the chest, come with four. It's a matter of personal taste. Wear 'em as you please. The only two button with space in between model I've ever had was a DB from BB. Seems like credible evidence of it as an American look.


Three button _dress_ coats; and pray tell did you read the first clause in the first sentence of simply gloss over it?

Three button _sports_ coats (norfolks and the like) do however have a long history, one that entails a single cuff button to be cinched tighter when necessity demands it.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Trad or not, a well-made suit coat usually has four sleeve buttons, often with the lower two working. Odd coats have three, two or one, the number generally decreasing with formality. A blazer may therefore have three or two buttons and a tweed coat may have two or one.


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## GMC (Nov 8, 2006)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> A curious assertion, as any proper sack will have three buttons.
> 
> There is no hard and fast rule about how many buttons are appropriate. Most suits these days, irrespective of the of number of buttons on the chest, come with four. It's a matter of personal taste. Wear 'em as you please. The only two button with space in between model I've ever had was a DB from BB. Seems like credible evidence of it as an American look.


I agree there's no rule.

Btw, I have a Brooks suit with two buttons and a space in between. It's a one-off hybrid sold some years ago. It rolls to the third, but has darts and side vents.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

Desk Jockey said:


> Three button _dress_ coats; and pray tell did you read the first clause in the first sentence of simply gloss over it?
> 
> Three button _sports_ coats (norfolks and the like) do however have a long history, one that entails a single cuff button to be cinched tighter when necessity demands it.


I read the post in it's entirety. The first sentence is inconsistent with the third. Sack suit jackets have three buttons rolled to two. To strictly construe your third sentence, it is inclusive of the 3 button sack suit jacket.


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## fairway (Sep 23, 2006)

Like many things, personal preference seems to be the fittest rule. I seem to recall a time when BB packaged the sleeve buttons in small envelopes with spacing diagrams on the envelopes, and the number of buttons was two. Four seems like a lot. My Hilton suits and jackets from its heyday have three.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Rumor has it that Brooks put two buttons on the sleeves of their three-button jackets to make it easier for the salespeople to pick them out of the rack. That's just strange enough to be true.


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## Northeastern (Feb 11, 2007)

KentW said:


> Rumor has it that Brooks put two buttons on the sleeves of their three-button jackets to make it easier for the salespeople to pick them out of the rack. That's just strange enough to be true.


I just checked my closet and my two Glen Plaid BB 2 button suits both have 2 buttons on the sleeve, where as my 3 button sack sport coat has a whopping 4 buttons on it.

Oh sleeve buttons, you are a curious mystery.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

GMC said:


> I agree there's no rule.
> 
> Btw, I have a Brooks suit with two buttons and a space in between. It's a one-off hybrid sold some years ago. It rolls to the third, but has darts and side vents.


Agreed. No rule...


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

My jackets range from 2-4. I can't think of any logic to them.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

way back then [i cant remember when] many tailors custom was to number the number the sleeve buttons like the front. 1 front 1 sleeve,2and2,3and3. 
for a while cloth covered buttons were popular. they are still used on dinner jackets. i always thought they looked good on sport coats


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Every 3B sack suit and sports coat I've ever owned had two buttons on the sleeves. The 2B suits have two. The DB, or 2B or 3B darted double vent coats generally have four buttons.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

For some reason, and believe me I just got up and walked all the way to my closet to check, none of my best fitting jackets, those that really fit well right off the rack, have any buttons on the sleeve. Weird but true. What's up? 

All others vary from two to four buttons without apparent rhyme or reason.


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> A curious assertion, as any proper sack will have three buttons.
> 
> There is no hard and fast rule about how many buttons are appropriate. Most suits these days, irrespective of the of number of buttons on the chest, come with four. It's a matter of personal taste. Wear 'em as you please. The only two button with space in between model I've ever had was a DB from BB. Seems like credible evidence of it as an American look.


From what I can tell, you are correct about the BB sleeves. I have several GF suits that I have picked up here and there, and about 1/2 of them have 2 buttons on the sleeve. They are the only jackets in my wardrobe with 2 buttons.


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

*2 on the sleeve*

I have several Brooks jackets from the early eighties-all sack -

I think the Bros were 2 on the sleeve on sack, I dont know if this practice continued.

max


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

The Brooks Brothers standard when I was a kid in the 1980s was for the three-button jackets to have two buttons on each sleeve. More recently, I've bought most of my clothing from J. Press. The current standard there seems to be for the three-button jackets to have three buttons on each sleeve. I hardly think that one is more "correct trad" than the other. And even if it were, I wouldn't care.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

I have one "vintage" suit - Chipp - 2 buttons and
3 "vintage" BB jackets - 1 blue and 2 tweed, all with 2 buttons. 

I like the two buttons. "Less is more" is say!


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## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

2, 3 or 4. Preferably 3 or 4.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

I really like the look of two buttons on the sleeve of a suit or sport coat, and most of my favorites have this arrangement. 

It seems to evoke an unfussy casualness. I think four buttons on a sport coat sleeve are actually kind of annoying.

I've even removed buttons on a few jackets to get "the deuce" (I just made that up, and wow is it embarrassing).


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

I just got an O'Connell's sack blazer, and it came with two. I'm going to have my own buttons put on, and I'm trying to decided wether to go back with two or three...


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Someone once suggested to me (this was a very long time ago) a correlation between the number of cuff buttons and salary - two = £20,000 etc. Some feeble attempt to pass off a ridiculous suit he had had made with five-button cuffs.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

For whatever it's worth, I recently acquired a mint three piece, three button coat, Brooks Brothers suit from the 'Teens or '20's. There are two buttons on the sleeves with finished but unopened buttonholes. You can just see the two cuff buttons if you 'right click' and enlarge the second pic. I offer it as historical perspective.

See https://www.etsy.com/listing/113206383/reserved-4-phil-vintage-1920s-mens-suit?image_id=388740010


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

rwaldron said:


> I just got an O'Connell's sack blazer, and it came with two. I'm going to have my own buttons put on, and I'm trying to decided wether to go back with two or three...


I vote for two.


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## boatswaindog (Nov 18, 2010)

I will confirm that two spaced buttons on the sleeve was always the Brooks Brothers standard. It was the subtle way you could distinguish a Brooks suit that someone else was wearing. They were never the most expensive, never the cheapest, but they were the best made suit that you could buy of the rack well into the late 1970s.


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## KenCPollock (Dec 20, 2003)

Nearly everything now has 4 buttons, but way back Brooks always had 2 on its 3-button sack jackets and 3 on its "updated" darted 2 button jackets. Norman Hilton always had 3 buttons, spaced, with lots of thread wrapped around each button to mount them high.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm not very particular about how many buttons are on my jacket sleeves. Though... if all goes well with a certain MTM suit I'm getting, I may collaborate with them on a 3/2 sack "Ivy League" model or something, complete with spaced two button sleeves. We'll see.


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

KenCPollock said:


> Nearly everything now has 4 buttons, but way back Brooks always had 2 on its 3-button sack jackets and 3 on its "updated" darted 2 button jackets. Norman Hilton always had 3 buttons, spaced, with lots of thread wrapped around each button to mount them high.


The number of buttons is really all over the map. I have a Norman Hilton from the early to mid 80's with 4 buttons on each sleeve. However, the "kissing" buttons that are raised off the sleeve seem to be a trademark of Hilton. To me, this is an indication of the care Hilton took in tailoring their clothes. It takes a lot more work to use this method as opposed to just sewing the button to the fabric.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Aren't you talking about shanked buttons? Those should be there if the sleeve buttons actually open.


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## Cuttington III (Nov 15, 2008)

I prefer the classic 2 spaced buttons. I've even removed a button or tow to appropriate the look. Kind of silly, but so it goes.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Is there much precedence for them being "classic" besides some tailoring trends from the '50s and '60s though? All the other decades have the usual three or four touching buttons on the sleeve. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool look, but I can't entirely agree that it's classic.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Jovan said:


> Is there much precedence for them being "classic" besides some tailoring trends from the '50s and '60s though? All the other decades have the usual three or four touching buttons on the sleeve. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool look, but I can't entirely agree that it's classic.


I'm in favor of it because it looks better.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Because it is less cluttered? I think either looks fine.


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

Jovan said:


> Aren't you talking about shanked buttons? Those should be there if the sleeve buttons actually open.


Thanks Jovan, the terminology escaped me at the time. I have seen shanked buttons a few times when the sleeve buttons don't open. I think it is more common with working button holes.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

EastVillageTrad said:


> Agreed. No rule...


Except that 5 buttons on the sleeve is always wrong.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Five sleeve buttons... not something I'd do, but I'm not terribly bothered by it.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Jovan said:


> Five sleeve buttons... not something I'd do, but I'm not terribly bothered by it.


My conspiracy theory is that five button sleeves are for guys who want to leave the last button undone but look like they have four button sleeves.

I guess I prefer two buttons because I like having the spacing between them. Also, I think it's a really subtle version of the point you made in the contrasting buttonholes thread -- that interesting jacket cuffs work as a way to quietly show that you care a lot about clothes -- but I find sleeve cuffs and the like a touch baroque, while two button sleeves are striking (minorly so) because of their simplicity.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Odradek said:


> Except that 5 buttons on the sleeve is always wrong.


Heath Ledger's Joker wore 5 buttons on his coat sleeves.
He was just _*bad*_, not Trad, n'cest pas?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> My conspiracy theory is that five button sleeves are for guys who want to leave the last button undone but look like they have four button sleeves.
> 
> I guess I prefer two buttons because I like having the spacing between them. Also, I think it's a really subtle version of the point you made in the contrasting buttonholes thread -- that interesting jacket cuffs work as a way to quietly show that you care a lot about clothes -- but I find sleeve cuffs and the like a touch baroque, while two button sleeves are striking (minorly so) because of their simplicity.


That's a good way of looking at it.


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## wzjradam (Sep 27, 2011)

Four gets my vote.


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## Shiny (Jan 7, 2013)

wzjradam said:


> Four gets my vote.


Me, too.


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## Chevo (Jan 3, 2013)

I have a colleague who claims that anything over three buttons is ostentatious. :smile: I don't think I have been around long enough to make a call on this one.


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## Acme (Oct 5, 2011)

filfoster said:


> For whatever it's worth, I recently acquired a mint three piece, three button coat, Brooks Brothers suit from the 'Teens or '20's. There are two buttons on the sleeves with finished but unopened buttonholes. You can just see the two cuff buttons if you 'right click' and enlarge the second pic. I offer it as historical perspective.
> 
> See https://www.etsy.com/listing/113206383/reserved-4-phil-vintage-1920s-mens-suit?image_id=388740010


Nice one!


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## Liquiriza (Dec 25, 2012)

rip said:


> I have a blazer and a suit from BB (both sacks) with two buttons on the sleeve. I don't particularly like the look. I think the posting about buttons relative to sleeve length makes the most sense.


The correct number of buttons is three or four, two are used if the manufacturer is trying to save on the cost of buttons. Which is yet another reason why excessively short and slim suits have become fashionable. An inch of cloth and 2 buttons doesn't seem like much, but it adds up very quickly over a production run.


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

Ok...


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Liquiriza said:


> The correct number of buttons is three or four, two are used if the manufacturer is trying to save on the cost of buttons.


Before you post in the Trad forum, you should take the trouble to learn the history of this way of dressing. Two sleeve buttons have been common throughout the history of Trad/Ivy League style, including the product of makers who have no need to scrimp on cost by cutting down on trimmings.



Liquiriza said:


> Which is yet another reason why excessively short and slim suits have become fashionable. An inch of cloth and 2 buttons doesn't seem like much, but it adds up very quickly over a production run.


That would make sense if the bargain-basement suit retailers of the world - Mens Wearhouse and the like - were full of nothing but skinny suits. However, they aren't, so I don't think this theory holds much water.


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## Liquiriza (Dec 25, 2012)

Orgetorix said:


> Before you post in the Trad forum, you should take the trouble to learn the history of this way of dressing. Two sleeve buttons have been common throughout the history of Trad/Ivy League style, including the product of makers who have no need to scrimp on cost by cutting down on trimmings.


Note that I'm not saying that two button's isn't historical, it is. Just that one of the purposes of a two button garment (vs a 3/2 roll) is to save the cost of button and making a buttonhole, and IMHO the same thinking applies when having two buttons instead of three or four on the sleeve.

Garment makers have always tried to save money on cloth, notions and findings. Money is money, the same today as in 1902. If the customer walks out the door happy (and with one less button), mission accomplished.

Retailers want a 2.0 to 2.3x markup on their wholesale cost, and the manufacturer wants 2.0 to 2.3x markup on his factory cost. Take a $900 retail suit, probably wholesales for $300, and cost $100 FOB at the factory. Saving $1 on sleeve buttons, is 1% of the final selling price at the factory which can be very important given the remarkably low profit margins in cut-and-sew operations.

If done with high end retail goods, think of it as "enhancing the profit margin" rather than as an attempt to provide lower prices.:teacha:

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/09/the-unions-shoddy-aristocracy/



Orgetorix said:


> That would make sense if the bargain-basement suit retailers of the world - Mens Wearhouse and the like - were full of nothing but skinny suits. However, they aren't, so I don't think this theory holds much water.


It's coming, just give it some time.

https://www.menswearhouse.com/shop/ContentAttachmentView_-1_12751_12001__85067__modernfitstyle.html



> At its essence, a Modern Fit suit is slimmer through the torso, with a narrower lapel, slightly shorter jacket, and flat front pants that lean toward the slim side for a better fit. (Pleated pants just don't work with this contemporary silhouette.)


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

^^ Times article is very enlightening. Tells the story a bit differently than BB does in its company history, Generations of Style where after noting that it made uniforms for Generals Grant, Sheridan, Hooker, and Sherman goes on to say: "While serving as Quartermaster General of New York State, future U.S. President Chester A. Arthur ordered massive amounts of military clothing from Brooks Brothers." Selective history indeed.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

arkirshner said:


> ^^ Times article is very enlightening. Tells the story a bit differently than BB does in its company history, Generations of Style where after noting that it made uniforms for Generals Grant, Sheridan, Hooker, and Sherman goes on to say: "While serving as Quartermaster General of New York State, future U.S. President Chester A. Arthur ordered massive amounts of military clothing from Brooks Brothers." Selective history indeed.


Perhaps this refers to 'General' Cleveland ordering for his own ample-sized self.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

Acme's response to the BB 'Teens/'Twenties suit post/link


Acme said:


> Nice one!


Incredibly, it is mint (was stored in a steamer trunk in New Hampshire for almost a century) and fits me in every way. It is nearly impossible to calculate those odds! And, it has TWO buttons on each sleeve.


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## Ceriano (Aug 9, 2018)

My tailor damaged my suit jackets sleeve as he was removing the false stitching. Any suggestion on how to fix this? Should I go with 2 large buttons to cover the mess?


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## Vecchio Vespa (Dec 3, 2011)

Whatever O’Connell’s, J. Press, Orvis, or Hunter & Coggins is offering. It’s all over the place. I’m not picky enough to have them changed to match.


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