# victim-mentality politics at its best



## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

This is the smoothest attempt I've ever seen. I think Franken is an immediate favorite to win with this strategy. His supporting role as a proxy for Wellstone and Bill Clinton is a lock to win. He actually does it all very well; in a suprisingly postive way (for being so negative) and in a very non-offensive way. Why do people think he has no chance?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

He's not good enough, he's not smart enough, and doggone it people don't like him. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Is that true for Minnesota?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Is that true for Minnesota?


Oh, I don't know. I was just making a Stuart Smalley reference.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I cannot do youtube at work but I will say if they'll elect Jesse goobner there, I can believe Al for Congress no problem. It is obvious he has laid long term plans to do this, probably about the time Air America's little scandal over financing started.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

No offense to any of my fellow forumites from the state of Minnesota...but...it seems to me...that politically they must just be trying to gain toe reputation for being a circus...

Well...if Stuart Smalley were to get elected to senate anywhere I'd recommend there, Cali, or Mass...


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Okay, it's 7.5 minutes roughly, I got through four minutes of it. In those four minutes, we found out Al's dad had the capital to open a factory but lacked the ability to make it successful. He protrayed his family as just plain old working class....sorry, I do not know many working class families that open factories.* His mother-in-law obtained a GI loan under fraudulent pretenses and he spoke of it like a noble thing to do.* He does not like the thought of privatizing part of SS because if you croak early, he thinks only SS survivor benefits will get a family through. Of course, he fails to think of life insurance and he fails to mention under the proposed privatization, as I understood it, not only would a family get survivor benefits, they would also retain the capital of the private portion vs. having that disappear with the rest of the payments into the General Treasury.

Yes, he's certainly got quite the pitch there so far....


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

And if that doesn't work he could endear himself to the voters by telling warm tales of cocaine fueled evenings back in the good ol' days writing for SNL.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

pt4u67 said:


> And if that doesn't work he could endear himself to the voters by telling warm tales of cocaine fueled evenings back in the good ol' days writing for SNL.


Maybe the voters will forgive his substance-abusing past the way they did GWB's.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

crs said:


> Maybe the voters will forgive his substance-abusing past the way they did GWB's.


Perhaps they will if he's willing to bring it out in the open and talk about it.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Garrison Keillor needs some fresh material anyway.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Okay, it's 7.5 minutes roughly, I got through four minutes of it. In those four minutes, we found out Al's dad had the capital to open a factory but lacked the ability to make it successful. He protrayed his family as just plain old working class....sorry, I do not know many working class families that open factories.* His mother-in-law obtained a GI loan under fraudulent pretenses and he spoke of it like a noble thing to do.* He does not like the thought of privatizing part of SS because if you croak early, he thinks only SS survivor benefits will get a family through. Of course, he fails to think of life insurance and he fails to mention under the proposed privatization, as I understood it, not only would a family get survivor benefits, they would also retain the capital of the private portion vs. having that disappear with the rest of the payments into the General Treasury.
> 
> Yes, he's certainly got quite the pitch there so far....


I told ya the guy was good 

... and the loan was forgiven because she became a teacher! Yeah that's what we need more mercy towards fraud when the perpetrator performs some other community "good". By the way, have I mentioned Ken Lay's charitable giving? We might need to revisit the Enron case in the light of Wellstone's Values by way of his true prophet Al Franken.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

crs said:


> Maybe the voters will forgive his substance-abusing past the way they did GWB's.


He's a Dem, he'll get a free pass. Look at the length the media went to regarding GWB compared to Obama who's admitted to drug use. Evidently it's not news when a 'rockstar' admits to it.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Has Stewart Sm...I mean Al Franken done anything else worth of note other than snort coke, write jokes and trash talk republicans. People who say we should forgive him for his past indiscretions fail to point out that his past indiscretions make up the bulk of his public life. 

I'll give him credit though for putting his neck out there unlike so many of the other Hollywood libs.


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

<First, all politics since human time began is a victim mentality game by definition. Politicians promise you things that you couldn't obtain on your own in exchange for your vote. 

<Second, he's a liberal Democrat with a past, but is running in very liberal state, so he could win

<Finally, he gets alot of credit from me. Despite his personal opposition to the war, I personally saw him in a number of locations on tour with the USO. There were quite a few well known supporters of the war who did not do that or just arrived in theater for a photo op and departed.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

crs said:


> Maybe the voters will forgive his substance-abusing past the way they did GWB's.





pt4u67 said:


> Perhaps they will if he's willing to bring it out in the open and talk about it.


That strategy seems to be working for Senator Obama!


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

maxnharry said:


> <First, all politics since human time began is a victim mentality game by definition. Politicians promise you things that you couldn't obtain on your own in exchange for your vote.


Well, that is not really 'victim-mentality'. VM is you can't make it without me and the government; you can't solve your own problems because "the system" is working against you. The whole BIG everything - Big Oil, Big Tobacco, Big Trains I guess - like when he said the train goes through the town, but wouldn't stop. Well, how about taking the blame for not checking that out ahead of time? Is the train a private enterprise? The whole story was supposed to make you feel sorry for his Dad and then get you to vote for Al becuase you "FEEL HIS PAIN" because "HE FEELS YOUR PAIN". Sound familiar now? 

OTOH there are a few things that we can only do together that require community and leaders. Needing a local fire department, state schools, or a national defense are not 'victim-mentality', but they are sort of "what can you do for me that I can't do alone?". I do agree that politicians either work at this level or the VM level. True leaders would focus on the positives and things we should be doing together, and they work on removing obstacles that get in your way of helping yourself (which is important) to success. I would say Ronald Reagan worked this way. Career politicians are indeed bottom feeders. One of the things Reagan learned about government was studying Russia preparing for negotiations with them. He learned that the Russian mentality was extremely ambivalent. It was a conditioned response that if you believed that if you grew an extra half-acre of food, etc. the Czar or the Party would just take it from you. So, what was the point of putting out any extra effort? This was a problem very early on with Russians and their individual motivation to succeed. As Reagan used to say, "the most powerful economic force on earth is individuals working to improve their own interest." This is why we were able to use the American Spirit and free market economy as a weapon in the cold war. I find it sort of appropos that the man that implemented this vision made a point to remind everyone the most dangerous nine words in the english language were "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

As for the USO. I think you're right about Franken. I think that does mean a lot and I wish more celebrities did something positive. I am reminded of a Dennis Miller line I heard where he said if he didn't support this war in Iraq, he would lie; and say he did at least until the soldiers come home. While probably not totally accurate he was, as is his style, making both a joke and a point.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> That strategy seems to be working for Senator Obama!


I loved the Obama 60 Minutes interview where he said something like, "If I don't win it won't be because I'm black, it will be because I haven't communicated a vision to solve the problems we face."

I couldn't agree more.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

How much cocaine did he do?

Was it a once in awhile type thing in high school and college or was it an every day habit for awhile.

If he let it come down to the every day habit, I don't care how long he's been clean, it's affected him on a serious level and permanently changed him in some ways.

I'm all for rehabilitated people being accepted back into society and being successful. Being president is an especially stressful job under the best conditions. 

If you have been addicted to anything more potent than cigarettes, I question whether "president of the U.S." is the job for you.

The currect occupant of the white house gives me no reason to change my opinion regarding this.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Big Oil, Big Tobacco, Big Trains I guess - like when he said the train goes through the town, but wouldn't stop. Well, how about taking the blame for not checking that out ahead of time? Is the train a private enterprise? The whole story was supposed to make you feel sorry for his Dad and then get you to vote for Al becuase you "FEEL HIS PAIN" because "HE FEELS YOUR PAIN". Sound familiar now?


I bet the train not stopping was part of the vast Right Wing Conspiracy. So we have the son of a man that builds a factory who obviously does not complete due diligence (bet he paid union wages too!) wanting to help run the country. Married of course to the daughter of a woman that defrauded the G.I. Bill program. Speaking of which, $300 for teacher's college? Something does not wash there either.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Assuming Franken's father failed to do his due diligence is not necessarily correct. The town served as the final stop of the Illinois Central by the late 1800s and currently is served by three railroad companies, including Union Pacific. It is possible that rail service was interrupted after the factory was planned or started; the 1950s and 1960s were a time of great upheaval for railroad companies as their business declined dramatically. The Interstate Commerce Commission had to prevent some rail lines from being shut down entirely, but of course some stops were eliminated during that era.

Relatives of mine saw their store go under when the town decided to tear up the road in front of it for six months. Stuff like that happens despite due diligence.

The Albert Lea newspaper does not dispute Franken's version of history but still is seeking information from readers:



If we're going to harp on Franken's mother-in-law, then I suppose Rudy Giuliani ought to be held responsible for his dad, who by some reports spent time in Ossining State Prison (Sing-Sing). Both apparently did what they thought they had to do to survive -- bad choices, but irrelevant to a political campaign.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

crs said:


> Assuming Franken's father failed to do his due diligence is not necessarily correct. The town served as the final stop of the Illinois Central by the late 1800s and currently is served by three railroad companies, including Union Pacific. It is possible that rail service was interrupted after the factory was planned or started; the 1950s and 1960s were a time of great upheaval for railroad companies as their business declined dramatically. The Interstate Commerce Commission had to prevent some rail lines from being shut down entirely, but of course some stops were eliminated during that era.


Even if that is true, so what? Is that a reason to vote for his son in 2008? Do we "owe" Al Franken a senate seat for what the railroads did to his father's quilting business? What at all does it have to do with anything?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

crs said:


> If we're going to harp on Franken's mother-in-law, then I suppose Rudy Giuliani ought to be held responsible for his dad, who by some reports spent time in Ossining State Prison (Sing-Sing). Both apparently did what they thought they had to do to survive -- bad choices, but irrelevant to a political campaign.


Yes, we're going to harp on Franken's mother-in-law for fraud because it's being used as a reason to vote for Al. He brought it up and not in a "my family made bad choices" way, but as something he was PROUD OF.

If Rudy makes his Dad part of his campaign and says he is proud his Dad went to Sing-Sing, and is part of the reason we should vote for him, then yes, you should lay out what he did and you'll have full support.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

ksinc said:


> Even if that is true, so what? Is that a reason to vote for his son in 2008? Do we "owe" Al Franken a senate seat for what the railroads did to his father's quilting business? What at all does it have to do with anything?


I think he was just doing a little get-acquainted with the voters so they know he had relatively normal roots. He didn't talk much policy, I would hope that he will, but having no connection with Minnesota and not especially being a fan, I doubt I'll follow it closely. I don't think this is a bad strategy, getting people to see him as a human. Plenty of time for the other stuff. In a business interview, do you try to immediately hammer people with intellect or try to connect with them in a more informal manner and work up to it?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> I think he was just doing a little get-acquainted with the voters so they know he had relatively normal roots. He didn't talk much policy, I would hope that he will, but having no connection with Minnesota and not especially being a fan, I doubt I'll follow it closely. I don't think this is a bad strategy, getting people to see him as a human. Plenty of time for the other stuff. In a business interview, do you try to immediately hammer people with intellect or try to connect with them in a more informal manner and work up to it?


A "little get-aquainted"? LOL...so basically, hey, get to know me! My family is a failure and my in-law defrauds the Feds! We're good people. In a business interview, if someone fed me a crime committed by them or their family member as a qualification, yeah, I'd hammer on them. Ditto a business failure. Why would I want that in my organization, let alone running the company? But then again, per you crs, I am "creepy". I like silly things like honesty, integrity, and success.

Okay, this thread is gonna break down to this: liberals making excuses for Al, others thinking his speech is a little off kilter for a "vote for me" talk.

Regards


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> A "little get-aquainted"? LOL...so basically, hey, get to know me! My family is a failure and my in-law defrauds the Feds! We're good people. In a business interview, if someone fed me a crime committed by them or their family member as a qualification, yeah, I'd hammer on them. Ditto a business failure. Why would I want that in my organization, let alone running the company? But then again, per you crs, I am "creepy". I like silly things like honesty, integrity, and success.
> 
> Okay, this thread is gonna break down to this: liberals making excuses for Al, others thinking his speech is a little off kilter for a "vote for me" talk.
> 
> Regards


Didn't Nixon talk about his father's failure as a lemon farmer? Didn't Lincoln fail in business?

Good grief, the man is giving some family history. I'd hardly consider this a campaign speech. Get a grip.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> Didn't Nixon talk about his father's failure as a lemon farmer? Didn't Lincoln fail in business?
> 
> Good grief, the man is giving some family history. I'd hardly consider this a campaign speech. Get a grip.


If that speech was not towards the goal of getting elected, i.e. a campaign speech, what was it for? I suggest you get a grip, the sole purpose of that speech was to aid himself in getting elected.

Further, you asked a direct question and I gave a direct answer. I do apologize if you did not like the answer but anyone that said those things in a business interview should and would get "hammered" on. Yes there is a part where you feel out the "fit" of a candidate, but if one came out with a story about a relative defrauding the Feds and making it sound noble, I would probably wrap up the interview at that point. Again, that's just me and you feel such concepts are "creepy". I am fine being "creepy" according to you if that means I do not find fraud a good thing. Odd, I never once saw you defend the Enron boys, after this thread it would seem they would be your Poster Boys for fraud.

Cheers


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> If that speech was not towards the goal of getting elected, i.e. a campaign speech, what was it for? I suggest you get a grip, the sole purpose of that speech was to aid himself in getting elected.
> 
> Further, you asked a direct question and I gave a direct answer. I do apologize if you did not like the answer but anyone that said those things in a business interview should and would get "hammered" on. Yes there is a part where you feel out the "fit" of a candidate, but if one came out with a story about a relative defrauding the Feds and making it sound noble, I would probably wrap up the interview at that point. Again, that's just me and you feel such concepts are "creepy". I am fine being "creepy" according to you if that means I do not find fraud a good thing. Odd, I never once saw you defend the Enron boys, after this thread it would seem they would be your Poster Boys for fraud.
> 
> Cheers


I don't think Franken was holding up the fraud as a great thing, only using it to illustrate that a lack of other options made this the only way she saw to get that education. He appears to be saying that Pell Grants do not currently do as much as they once did relative to the cost of education and maybe we ought to do something about that.

You aren't creepy because of your views but because of your tone, your eagerness to jump on people instead of being civil. You seem to have an awful lot of hate in you, and you vent it on the Internet rather than wandering into a Tucson biker bar and venting it there. Right, tough guy?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> You aren't creepy because of your views but because of your tone, your eagerness to jump on people instead of being civil. You seem to have an awful lot of hate in you, and you vent it on the Internet rather than wandering into a Tucson biker bar and venting it there. Right, tough guy?


Crs, you are reaching new lows and wandering ever further off topic when you run out of logical fallacies to continue your shoddy rhetorical attempts. I have never once played ITG. You however had made posts stating you would like me sedated and restrained, that I was beat upon in high school, and other vile, violent, and hateful things. While I have made many comments about your politics and lack of ability to logically defend them as well as the rather self-inflated view you have of your profession, I have pretty much refrained from any comments regarding violence or violation of your person, such as you have started to regularly post about me. I think who is filled with hate in this little scenario is apparent and your "tough guy" thing has "little man" disease written all over it. I have particularly eschewed from any comments about any ability (or inability) I might possess in the manly arts of self defence. I have however posted a picture of myself in an outfit (something I do not believe you have ever done) and you can judge the robustness of my build yourself.

Cheers


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> I have pretty much refrained from any comments regarding violence or violation of your person


You are forgetting this?



Wayfarer said:


> No concerns on my part forsberg. I doubt our dear crs would be so cheeky in person.


Man up and stop trying to spin things.

You've also initiated all the PM exchanges between us. You seem unbalanced.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> that I was beat upon in high school


If you can find that, I will vote Republican for the rest of my life. I wrote that probably no one liked you. I don't doubt that for a minute.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> If you can find that, I will vote Republican for the rest of my life. I wrote that probably no one liked you. I don't doubt that for a minute.


You are correct, I did not remember your insult correctly. Sorry if I do not place so much importance on them, as there are so many, that I can repeat them perfectly. It was more along the lines of saying I was shunned by my age cohorts. I do stand corrected.

At least you did not have the audacity to deny the rest of my post. Good on you.

Cheers


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> At least you did not have the audacity to deny the rest of my post.


You do not read very well, do you? Perhaps they have a remedial course at Pima Community College. If tuition assistance is unavailable, you can always follow the example of Al Franken's mother-in-law.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> You are forgetting this?
> 
> Man up and stop trying to spin things.
> 
> You've also initiated all the PM exchanges between us. You seem unbalanced.


LOL, a comment that you would probably not be so cheeky in person (as people rarely are when face to face with someone) in a thread where you were proposing I be sedated and restrained is an excuse for all your repeated violently tinged comments to me? I think you are losing all perspective.

If you think that is being an ITG, FlatSix would have you hiring a body guard.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

You know crs, you have got me to thinking. I believe I should take your postings seriously. I would like to request that you refrain from posts referring to the violation of my person in any fashion please. I feel that even over the 'Net, a certain line is being crossed that should not. Again, please refrain from any comments based upon violating my physical person or basic rights of autonomy and personhood.

Thank you.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Then leave my cheeks out of it. I'd bet you're interested in the lower ones, thus the numerous PMs you've sent to me, mostly deranged.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> Then leave my cheeks out of it. I'd bet you're interested in the lower ones, thus the numerous PMs you've sent to me, mostly deranged.


Nice. A reply asking you not to make posts alluding to violence to me generates a allusion I am gay. I imagine this post will draw some attention.

Cheers


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Nice. A reply asking you not to make posts alluding to violence to me generates a allusion I am gay. I imagine this post will draw some attention.
> 
> Cheers


You just seem obsessed. I get more computer messages from you than I get from my wife. I think you are looking for a little man love from the liberal ranks. Either that or you have a mental disorder.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs, I shall withdraw from this. I do not want to be party to an escalating personal animous. I feel I must help pull you back from the prescipse you seem to be on. I would extend to you the olive branch and ask we draw certain lines of decorum we do not cross. Aspersions on one's sexuality or wishing to violate their person, for instance, are things I would rather not participate in. Feisty debate, pointed comments about ideas, opinions, etc., but nothing more.

Regards


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Aspersions on one's sexuality


I don't consider being gay a negative, thus no aspersion. I'm just trying to figure you out, that's all. All those insults, yet all those PMs. All I can think of is third grade, when we teased the girl we thought was cute. Hey, I'm liberal. I'm a modern man. If you're hot for old CRS, it's OK. I'm not mutually attracted, but we can be friends.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

There is of course nothing wrong with being gay. The aspersion was in the nature of hiding one's sexuality or being false about it, which I am not. It was a nice attempt at trying to temper what was quite a nasty post. Now I shall withdraw from this. I have offered to difuse this with you, but it will take both parties to accomplish this. As long as you keep your insults directed at my ideas and opinions, things are fine. Start with the posts wishing to see my person violated and lines have been crossed.

Regards


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Start with the posts wishing to see my person violated and lines have been crossed.


I have no idea what you mean.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I have to admit to being secretly attracted to CRS. He reminds me of 'Jan' on the Brady's ...


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> I have no idea what you mean.


Please allow me to refresh your memory then:



crs said:


> I am not worried. He will be wearing a straitjacket.


The "he" referenced is of course me.



crs said:


> With you sedated and restrained, why would I demure?


A post to me.

Now we can see a couple of examples I am referring to and hopefully will no longer have posts where the subject is a violation of my physical person. I can see my offer of an olive branch is not being well received already. I hope you reconsider and I shall bid you a good night crs.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wow, that is serious stuff, Waysie. Send me the bill for your therapy, by all means.


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