# For foot soldiers only



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Back in the day, 3 RAF Regt Gunners with their 7.62mm SLRs in what was then called the Radfan region of The Federation of South Arabia, now Yemen. The Radfan Campaign was the first half of 1964. 









Back in the day, and my old Squadron takes 5 in Belize!

Back in the day, RAF Regt sangar VCP (probably in Cyprus - if it was Northern Ireland the beret badges would be black, and it isn't an exercise as those are live rounds, and that is not an exercise GPMG) with the good old 7.62 mm Gimpy, before it was replaced by the SA80 MG and then the 5.56 Minimi.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

A RAF Regt Gunner from my old Sqaudron II Field Squadron Airborne serving here with the SFSG(Special Forces Support Group), pre-jump with two US Pararescuemen.










5 Rifles in Afghanistan

I have a special affinity with The Rifles, as my boyhood (14-16) Army Cadet service was with the Royal Green Jackets, which was subsumed into The Rifles along with several Light Infantry regiments from all over the UK.

The Rifles is the largest and best trained infantry regiment in the British Army and is probably the UK equivlanet of the US Marines in training and function.
https://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/23448.aspx

If I were now to make equivalents between US and UK units I would say, based on task and training alone:

SAS = Delta Force/Green Berets/SEALS

SBS =Delta Force/Green Berets/SEALS

1 Para/SFSG = US Army Rangers

Royal Marine Commandos = US Marine Force Recon

The Rifles = probably USMC

RAF Regiment = no direct US equivalent because of their unique multi-role (Airborne, LLAD, CVRT (mounted infantry), Force Protection, SFSG, LRRP, LRDP and helo force) probably a combination of USAF Combat Security Police, Airborne and Air Cavalry.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

That first photo would have gotten our entire unit an article 15. lol.. I admit that we all bathed somewhat "au natural" in a natural hawaiian spring during a long field problem, but we certainly didn't allow photos... lol

Subsitute k-pots for the boonie caps and the second photo seems rather reminiscent

Red tipped tracers... What a flashback....Just remember... Tracers go both ways (and run hot)... LOL:fool:


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Cool pics. Those SLRs look crazy heavy. Tell us about the shoes you're wearing in the desert pic.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

justonemore said:


> Red tipped tracers... What a flashback....Just remember... Tracers go both ways (and run hot)... LOL:fool:


Which was why, as soon as you knew you were hitting the enemy position, you removed the tracers!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> Cool pics. Those SLRs look crazy heavy. Tell us about the shoes you're wearing in the desert pic.


They'll be desert boots. Obviously ........


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Which was why, as soon as you knew you were hitting the enemy position, you removed the tracers!


While ideal...... In light infantry you run the belts you are issued (carry). HAving a truck full of ammo nearby is nothing like humping your ammo supply. Keep in mind that light infantry is also much more "spur of the moment". You can alter belts as to the mission, but in the end, tracers are still valid when htting a target...


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Chouan said:


> They'll be desert boots. Obviously ........


Not Chukkas?.....:biggrin:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

tocqueville said:


> Cool pics. Those SLRs look crazy heavy. Tell us about the shoes you're wearing in the desert pic.


The SLR, funnily enough was a very basic, no frills, single shot self-loader so as such was not that much heavier than the plastic, bells & whistles SA80 that replaced it in 84. It weighed about 9 ½ lbs empty, about 10 ½ lbs with a mag in. The SA80 weghs about 8 ½ lbs empty about 9½ lbs with a mag in.

The desert boots back then were basically the 3 eyelet Clarks style, suede and with a crepe sole.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

SG_67 said:


> Not Chukkas?.....:biggrin:


Oh noooo!!!!! Don't start that again


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

justonemore said:


> While ideal...... In light infantry you run the belts you are issued (carry). HAving a truck full of ammo nearby is nothing like humping your ammo supply. Keep in mind that light infantry is also much more "spur of the moment". You can alter belts as to the mission, but in the end, tracers are still valid when htting a target...


Back in the day, RAF Regt units in small formation were very light infantry insertion teams w/o any vehicular support.
Recon had light armour tracked vehicles
LLAD had trucks and landrovers for their Rapiers
II Sqn Airborne jumped out of perfectly good aircraft  and yomped!


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Back in the day, RAF Regt units in small formation were very light infantry insertion teams w/o any vehicular support.
> Recon had light armour tracked vehicles
> LLAD had trucks and landrovers for their Rapiers
> II Sqn Airborne jumped out of perfectly good aircraft  and yomped!


It's all a bit hard to pin down the différences between U.K. and U.S.units.... Speaking only from my experience with the 25th ID light (5/14 and 3/21).....We had longer range support....i.e. units would cache supplies that we would need to locate in order to continue with our mission... We had Air Assault and Airborne capabilities, but they were secondary compared tp land based incursions. We had transport to the range, but we'd still be ^walking 10 times that over a month in the field(and at least half the time I remember marching out to the field as well).

I remember my turning point as to not re-upping....It was a 6 week field problem that somehow turned into 8 weeks. No problem. Such is life, and war is by no means far. I was a few years in and strating to gain rank and repect but as a big guy, I still had the gun, I had a little weasel of a guy as AG. This guy couldn't hump the gear with 20 years of experience. The end of this this 8 week problem was a 100 mile death march in ful gear (over 3 days). The last day we marched onto post and were told to sleep in the field 2 blocks away from our barracks.... I served the next couple years as agreed by contract, but never respected the concept ever again...

https://imageshack.com/i/ey8olpU1phttps://imageshack.com/i/idHdN2Mgj


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

But this is what the RAF Regt looks like nowadays in Afghanistan, headsets and sunglasses, body armour and kevlar helmets, knee and elbow protection....sheeeshh...I dunno....."when I were a lad..."


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Come on! Admit it! You KNOW you loved the Sharpe series as much as I did!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

I loathed it! The tv series was nearly as bad as the books! Dreadful!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Chouan said:


> I loathed it! The tv series was nearly as bad as the books! Dreadful!


Yea, but you were in The Andrew I WAS a Rifleman


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Yea, but you were in The Andrew I WAS a Rifleman


I'm also an historian! The books and the programmes are absolute $hite!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I will take your Word for it as the Peninsular Wars are not my forte, I just, took the novels and films for What they are, good action yarns, Boys Own stuff.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I will take your Word for it as the Peninsular Wars are not my forte, I just, took the novels and films for What they are, good action yarns, Boys Own stuff.


Indeed, but they could have been so much better if they were in any way believable. If they had believable characters, villains that weren't pantomime villains, believable plots, believable language and relationships, and an understanding of what the British army was like in the Peninsula. There are, afterall, plenty of real memoirs that he could have used, in particular, at least three memoirs written by Riflemen. Try these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Military-Memoirs-Recollections-Rifleman-Harris/dp/0900075643 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tales-Rifl...5414336&sr=1-2&keywords=Kincaid+Rifle+Brigade https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1846770...rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_i=0900075643 and this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rifles-Yea...id=1425414423&sr=1-6&keywords=Dorset+Rifleman
Once you're read the reality, you'll see what nonsense, and what insulting nonsense "Sharpe" is!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

What say you Then on the Douglas Reeman novels about the Royal Marines across the centuries? I read 2 & enjoyed them.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> What say you Then on the Douglas Reeman novels about the Royal Marines across the centuries? I read 2 & enjoyed them.


I've never heard of those. Any other good UK mil historical fiction? Chouan?

I've read through the Patrick O'Brien series, twice.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Any other good UK mil historical fiction?


Evelyn Waugh paints an entertaining picture of the British army in WWII in his Sword of Honour trilogy - Men at Arms, Officers and Gentleman, and Unconditional Surrender. A lot is owed to his fantastic imagination, yet his own direct experience - he was a Royal Marine and served in the Balkans and elsewhere - comes through to a surprising degree, as various lightly disguised characters from the real war come and go.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> What say you Then on the Douglas Reeman novels about the Royal Marines across the centuries? I read 2 & enjoyed them.


The same. I read Douglas Reeman, in all of his nom de plumes, as a youth, before I had much understanding of life, or history, and enjoyed them. However, once I had more experience of life, and literature, I realised that Reeman/Alexander Kent had about three basic plots which he endlessly recycled. Rubbish. Really.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> I've never heard of those. Any other good UK mil historical fiction? Chouan?
> 
> I've read through the Patrick O'Brien series, twice.


Patrick O'Brien is about the best of popular military based historical fiction, there is very little else beyond C.S.Forester https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Forester who, interestingly, also wrote some very good WW2 based fiction centred on the USN, with whom he sailed as a liason operative during the war. Brian Callison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Callison has written several very good WW2 and more modern based novels which are mostly good, almost always with a maritime flavour. However, my favourite, after O'Brien and Forester for "proper" military based historical novels are the "Flashman" series by George MacDonald Fraser, which are both entertaining and historically very accurate. His other books are also very good.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

I was going to add a photo, but I can't seem to do it. It's in a word document, but I can neither use the add picture tool, nor copy it, nor add it as a word document. Any suggestions?


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

Chouan said:


> I was going to add a photo, but I can't seem to do it. It's in a word document, but I can neither use the add picture tool, nor copy it, nor add it as a word document. Any suggestions?


You should be able to drag the photo out of the Word doc and onto your desktop, and then upload to whatever photo hosting site you use.
That should work on a Mac anyway.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Chouan said:


> but they could have been so much better if they were in any way believable.


But then they aren't as much fun and don't provide an escape from reality. After 13 years as a police officer in the Met I know how unrealistic every single "UK" police and private detective series is, especially the ones written by American women who think that British police detectives carry a pistol everywhere.

The worst aspect of ALL police & detective novels and dramatisations of them is that the writers think that police officers and private detectives actually can be mavericks and use unorthodox methods outside the letter of the law and shine like stars solving cases on their own. Linley, Morse and Dalgleish etc. couldn't possibly exist in real life, that solo type of maverick and often illegal policing just doesn't happen.

I've seen police officers sacked for using methods outside the "rule book" even though they prevented serious crime or "arrested" the criminals. 
I've been reprimanded for it myself. The "good result" is irrelevant if as a police officer you can't be seen to adhere to the very letter of the law.

The most realistic portrayal of police I have seen is Kirsty on Coronation Street, who got in trouble and was suspended for unauthorised use of the PNC (Police National Computer) and other systems to obtain information about people and vehicles for personal reasons...THAT actually happens.

Detectives pulling pistols out of their jackets as they approach a seemingly empty house in the English countryside (Linley & Havers) NEVER happens and has NEVER happened.

But again, I don't care, it's entertainment not a documentary. I watch them for entertainment not realism.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Odradek said:


> You should be able to drag the photo out of the Word doc and onto your desktop, and then upload to whatever photo hosting site you use.
> That should work on a Mac anyway.


Thanks, I'll give it a try.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Odradek said:


> You should be able to drag the photo out of the Word doc and onto your desktop, and then upload to whatever photo hosting site you use.
> That should work on a Mac anyway.


Doesn't work, I'm afraid. All I get is an icon telling me that it can't be done. If I try to upload it here I get an icon saying "Invalid file".


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> But then they aren't as much fun and don't provide an escape from reality. After 13 years as a police officer in the Met I know how unrealistic every single "UK" police and private detective series is, especially the ones written by American women who think that British police detectives carry a pistol everywhere.
> 
> The worst aspect of ALL police & detective novels and dramatisations of them is that the writers think that police officers and private detectives actually can be mavericks and use unorthodox methods outside the letter of the law and shine like stars solving cases on their own. Linley, Morse and Dalgleish etc. couldn't possibly exist in real life, that solo type of maverick and often illegal policing just doesn't happen.
> 
> ...


If one is ready, or watching, a contemporary drama your point would be largely true. However, if I were to watch a drama, or read a novel, set on a ship, if there are procedural errors, even if only obvious to me, my suspension of disbelief would immediately be lost and I would no longer find the drama entertaining or watchable or readable.
Historical drama or novels are different in that they are inherently escapist. Even then, however, apart from the dreadful quality of writing in Reeman and Sharpe, and the poor plots etc, the historical inaccuracies again destroy the suspension of disbelief. The story, to me, must be believable, and gross historical inaccuracies (I'm not just talking about wrong buttons!) mean that, again, the story/drama/novel becomes pointless.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

We have very different approaches to watching TV and film then.

The only thing that bug me in TV and film is when geography is changed to make for a better shot (often to include a famous landmark) or to give a sense of continuity in time.

Most obviously (and I know I brought this up before on one of the Sherlock Holmes' threads) was when in one of the two Downey Jr./Law films, Holmes (or Watson, I can't remember) runs thorugh the London sewers from under the Palace of Westminster/Westminster Bridge to Tower Bridge in one continuous scene in about 3 minutes!!!! Driving that route in a car takes at least 10 minutes!!!


Another one was in Absolutely Fabulous when they set off from Ladbroke Road in Notting Hill to drive to Harvey Nichols in Knightsbridge, which is a straight run up Holland Park Avenue into Notting Hill Gate down Kensington Church Street and east along Kensington Road and into Knightsbridge, no river crossings even remotely needed, a 10 minute drive...but oh yea, they did the river crossing!!!! And then they had the car going round Sloane Sqaure and up Sloane Street!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

My father used to get very upset when the wrong long arms or pistols were used in historical dramas, westerns or war films. He also got very irritated when they showed Roman soldiers and American Indians using stirrups.  
He was like you too in that he could not enjoy a film if the chronology or the actual facts were askew. 

Okay then, movie blockbusters that were military/historical monstrosities awash with lies: 

1. Braveheart
2. U-571
3. The Patriot


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I was watching a Live and Let Die the other day.

The naive CIA agent/bunny was admonished for leaving the safety catch of her revolver on.

Revolvers have no safety catch.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

eerrrrmmm......sorry to tell you this but many revolvers old and modern have safety catches. I've fired revolvers with safety catches.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

English revolvers or S&W revolvers the CIA carried??


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> English revolvers or S&W revolvers the CIA carried??


Actually UK police only used S & W revolvers back in my day.

This S & W .44 I'm using here in the late 80s had a safety catch.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...31&oe=557595B5

Forgot to say that of course MOST revolvers do not have safety catches, but the ones I've encountered that do have them, have mostly been military and police issue, which would cover CIA as well.

I've seen 2 types of safety catch on revolvers, one which converts the chamber release on the left side into a safety catch and one which is up behind the chamber below the hammer, which is a simple psuh/slide bar to lock the hammer.

An officer at my old shooting club had a Ruger with this type of safety catch (that said he also had a Desert Eagle, a very ornate Colt .45, and various other automatics and revolvers, including a WWII Russian automatic) 









I know some of the old British Webleys and BSA revolvers had safety catches as did some of the early German revolvers. The first police revovler I handled in London in the early 80s was the S & W Model 10 (5-chamber) .38 Special and that DID NOT have a safety catch.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> My father used to get very upset when the wrong long arms or pistols were used in historical dramas, westerns or war films. He also got very irritated when they showed Roman soldiers and American Indians using stirrups.
> He was like you too in that he could not enjoy a film if the chronology or the actual facts were askew.
> 
> Okay then, movie blockbusters that were military/historical monstrosities awash with lies:
> ...


Arghh! Braveheart is, apparently, one of the worst films for historical, geographical, continuity and stunt errors, of all time.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

OLD STUFF fired!

This I fired in 1982, during squadron training, it is the L42A1 7.62 snipers rifle. They were conversions of the .303 Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk 1. Came into service in 1970 and was taken out of service in 1990.
[video]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/L42A1-Large.png[/video]

This I fired in 81 when training the SRF (Station Reaction Force) at an RAF station
7.62 LMG, Bren conversion









And this I fired in 1976-78 with the Royal Green Jackets TA and Cadets in Putney 
.303 Lee Enfield, heavy as hell with the full wooden furniture!


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> My father used to get very upset when the wrong long arms or pistols were used in historical dramas, westerns or war films. He also got very irritated when they showed Roman soldiers and American Indians using stirrups.
> He was like you too in that he could not enjoy a film if the chronology or the actual facts were askew.
> 
> Okay then, movie blockbusters that were military/historical monstrosities awash with lies:
> ...


Interesting that 2 of the 3 posted are/were Mel Gibson movies.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> My father used to get very upset when the wrong long arms or pistols were used in historical dramas, westerns or war films. He also got very irritated when they showed Roman soldiers and American Indians using stirrups.
> He was like you too in that he could not enjoy a film if the chronology or the actual facts were askew.
> 
> Okay then, movie blockbusters that were military/historical monstrosities awash with lies:
> ...


Agreed. I particularly couldn't stand "The Patriot"'s portrayal of race relations, which were in fact the opposite of what was true.

The recent "Pearl Harbor" was an atrocity of a movie on every level.

One thing that really bothers me about historical films is when they stray from the truth and in fact make it less interesting. A case in point is that awful Joan of Arc, movie, "The Messenger," which made Joan out to be an angry crazy woman who needed therapy, when the real story is far more complex and thus more intriguing.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

1970s Sterling 9mm SMG









And here's a photo of a civvy doing the one thing military instructors tell you never to do with an SMG and especially not with the Sterling


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> Interesting that 2 of the 3 posted are/were Mel Gibson movies.


Not coincidental.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

SG_67 said:


> Interesting that 2 of the 3 posted are/were Mel Gibson movies.


Oh yea, I hadn't reflected on that actually. Can we make up a threesome of historically crappy films for him?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Oh yea, I hadn't reflected on that actually. Can we make up a threesome of historically crappy films for him?


Could we just list the "Lethal Weapon" series as just crappy?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Actually UK police only used S & W revolvers back in my day.
> 
> This S & W .44 I'm using here in the late 80s had a safety catch.
> 
> ...


On my Ruger that button only releases the cylinder for reloading.

So it is agreed, most revolvers do not have a safety catch.

How about silencers??


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Yea, LOL!!! Seen that in films too.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

2009 - That's the butt of a Swedish Army *Pistol 88 *(9 mm Glock 17) you can see in my breast pocket...and yes...I am a leftie.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> 2009 - That's the butt of a Swedish Army *Pistol 88 *(9 mm Glock 17) you can see in my breast pocket...and yes...I am a leftie.


Is this really a 'ground pounder" uniform?

Is your hat at an acceptable angle? It sure wouldn't fly in the U.S. as it looks quite slopppy from our old sops (it reminds me of Ted Nugent for some reason).

And a bright blue undershirt? Is this the military or boy scouts? Of course a U.N mission is probably more as to the latter over the former :rolleyes2:...

The long sideburns and hair remind me of someone not worried about needing to donne a pro-mask anytime soon.... and .....Do I detect facial stubble on your lip?

Is that a field mission uniform? As you were carrying an open arm, I have to Wonder what was the occasion,, My training is of course different from yours but I can't imagine most of this being allowed Undanycircumstances in the U.S. front line ground pounder Infantry.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Well, for starters this was a UN-EU exericse, not real  And in 2009 uniform had not my daily attire for 13 years. 

We were role-playing corrupt militia in a foreign land in civil war with its neighbour, hence the pistol in the pocket.

That was a borrowed uniform. I was wearing civvies underneath, as I had other roles top lay on the exercise as well  Photos later. 

BUT in real life the Swedish Army "green" DPM is used by all of the army for all purposes, unlike in the UK and US that has various combat and fatigue uniforms depending on unit and purpose. 





That said, the Swedish army only has one


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Further to my earlier attempts to post a picture, here I am, hard at work.








On this vessel:


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