# Michael Vick and Dog Fighting



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I totally don't understand the whole dog fighting thing. I'm no fan of PETA, but dogfighting and cockfighting??????

Come on.

I also have a hard time understanding why no one close enough to Vick could make him understand how this would devastate his image at a minimum and ruin his life at a maximum.

Oh well, a good lawyer might keep him out of jail.


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I totally don't understand the whole dog fighting thing. I'm no fan of PETA, but dogfighting and cockfighting??????
> 
> Come on.
> 
> ...


But a good lawyer probably can't undo the public perception of him.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I agree with that.


----------



## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

I cannot understand why anybody would want to watch something so horrible. Dogfighting seems to be glorified in the hip hop world for some reason.


----------



## fir3fox (Dec 17, 2006)

Trenditional said:


> But a good lawyer probably can't undo the public perception of him.


Its manageable.

Kobe hasn't suffered from it. He's back on top w/ jersey sales and still headlines promotion when the Lakers come to town.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Kobe benefits from the he/said she/said nature of his alleged crime. He also was never convicted. He was not wise to put himself in that situation and is lucky he is still married.

This stuff with Michael Vick is a lot more cut and dried, I think. Even if he gets off legally, how does he explain the doggie corpses on his property to the general public??


----------



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

fir3fox said:


> Its manageable.
> 
> Kobe hasn't suffered from it. He's back on top w/ jersey sales and still headlines promotion when the Lakers come to town.


Kobe and Vick are apples/oranges


----------



## fir3fox (Dec 17, 2006)

I'll concede their different, but there are some similarities. Two high profile athletes indicted for crimes potentially leading to some serious time.

I'm not sure if he'll escape punishment, but if he does I’m just not sure if there will be that big of an outcry from the general public for an explanation. As long as he continues to be a revenue center for the league the NFL and the media might just take care of the rest. IMO, Vick has already benefited from years of hype/spin compensating for his lackluster performance on the field. It might just continue.

I'll also be interested in Commissioner Goodell’s response given the recent events with Pacman Jones, Tank Johnson and the Bengals.


----------



## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

I'm sure Mr. Vick will be celebrated by a segment of the American population. Among some groups, such activities are not merely tolerated, but actively supported. And among such groups, a criminal charge or conviction would be considered a kind of credential, or a badge of honor, however perverse that may be among civilized people.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

JRR said:


> Kobe and Vick are apples/oranges


...word...

What Kobe did could be called a lapse in judgement or whatever, plus, as much as I dislike Kobe, I seriously doubt that he forced himself on her...I know guys who work in sports promotion, and work very closely with alot of these major stars...I've been lucky enough to get to hang out with some of these guys, and trust me, I've seen the flocks of women that come up to these guys at restaurants/hotel lobbies etc...a star as big as Kobe would never have to resort to raping anybody...so really all it comes down to is cheating in my book...people may not like it...but cheating is not a crime...I aggree that he's probably nobody that children should look up to...but he's no criminal either...

Michael Vick on the other hand was actively participating in something that you'd have to be retarded not to know is unlawful...and even if it were legal is still downright disgusting...as has been stated before, I'm very surprized that somebody in his inner circle didnt sit him down and explain the damage that something like this could do to his career...I seriously doubt he'll get into any kind of real trouble legally, but I wonder if comissioner Goodell (sp?) actually has the stones to throw the book at a top level star...I think at least one season suspension without pay should be in order...


----------



## fir3fox (Dec 17, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> I think at least one season suspension without pay should be in order...


That sounds reasonable based off previous suspensions Goodell has already handed out. He'll be saved from having to make that decision if Vick is convicted.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ...word...
> 
> What Kobe did could be called a lapse in judgement or whatever, plus, as much as I dislike Kobe, I seriously doubt that he forced himself on her...I know guys who work in sports promotion, and work very closely with alot of these major stars...I've been lucky enough to get to hang out with some of these guys, and trust me, I've seen the flocks of women that come up to these guys at restaurants/hotel lobbies etc...a star as big as Kobe would never have to resort to raping anybody...so really all it comes down to is cheating in my book...people may not like it...but cheating is not a crime...I aggree that he's probably nobody that children should look up to...but he's no criminal either...
> 
> Michael Vick on the other hand was actively participating in something that you'd have to be retarded not to know is unlawful...and even if it were legal is still downright disgusting...as has been stated before, I'm very surprized that somebody in his inner circle didnt sit him down and explain the damage that something like this could do to his career...I seriously doubt he'll get into any kind of real trouble legally, but I wonder if comissioner Goodell (sp?) actually has the stones to throw the book at a top level star...I think at least one season suspension without pay should be in order...


He is also being charged with illegal gambling. If convicted, Vick could face up to 6 years in prison and $350k in fines. 
Vick is a top star, but I doubt many outside of the Falcons' fans would be upset if he were suspended. I hope Goodell gives him a year suspension, and if he doesn't, I hope that the PETA people and other animal rights groups follow the Falcons around and annoy the hell out of Vick. 
GO PACKERS!


----------



## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

What I don't get about this deal is how it went on so long without coming out before this. From what I understand, one of the first things he did when he signed his first contract was to buy this land to build his "kennel" on. He apparently had t-shirts made up for his "Bad Newz Kennels":

From the indictment:

On or about June 29, 2001, VICK paid approximately $34,000 for the purchase of property located at 1915 Moonlight Road, Smithfield, Virginia . From this point forward, the defendants, aided and assisted by others known and unknown to the Grand​Jury, used this property as the main staging area for housing and training the pit bulls involved in the dog fighting venture and hosting dog fights .

And another section:​In or about early 2002, PEACE, PHILLIPS, TAYLOR, and VICK established a
dog Iighting business enterprise known as "Bad Newz Kennels ." At one point, the defendants obtained shirts and headbands representing and promoting their affiliation with "Bad Newz Kennels."

Creepy.​


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

*Sad and Complicated Situation*

Arthur Blank is also the co founder of the Home Depot. Several hundred thousand Home Depot employees are going to be looking at the ethics involved. Pretty dangerous ground.Every Home Depot employee can't help but wonder what treatment they would get, if Blank cuts Vick a lot of slack.

Roger Godell also has a difficult situation. He suspended Pac Man Jones. His handling of the Vick situation will be compared to the Jones and Tank Johnson situations. As you know the Bears cut Johnson for his latest eacapade, which was alleged dui. Shortly after Johnson was apprehended, it turned out from a blood alcohol test that he was not under the influence.He's still gone. Discrimitaion between a franchise quarterback, a defensive back, and a defensive tackle will send reverbrations througout the NFL, if Vick gets lenient treatment.

Paul Horning and Alex Karas were given a one season suspension for gambling, but not on the outcome of the games that they played in. In the minds of the public, this is a Sunday school picnic, compared to the charges against Vick.

Vick also has the complication of three co defendants. It's fairly certain that the prosecutors can get one or more to turn on Vick.

As to the Kobe deal, he was indeed not convicted.Also, the public has an inherent distaste for animal cruelty that seems to greatly surpass their revulsion for a lot of other transgressions.

Kobe was able to commute to the trial and still play ball. This just wouldn't be possible with the preparation needed by an NFL quarterback, if the trial took place during the season, which it looks like it might.

Joey Harrington, you might want to get your chin strap buckled, or maybe Dante Culpepper has already gotten a call from Atlanta.

A real tragedy, at best.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> He is also being charged with illegal gambling. If convicted, Vick could face up to 6 years in prison and $350k in fines.
> Vick is a top star, but I doubt many outside of the Falcons' fans would be upset if he were suspended. I hope Goodell gives him a year suspension, *and if he doesn't, I hope that the PETA people and other animal rights groups follow the Falcons around and annoy the hell out of Vick. *
> GO PACKERS!


if they did this, it would be one instance where I would whole heartedly aggree with PETA's tactics...


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

He's just fighting the dogs that Americans don't want to fight.


----------



## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

I don't condone it, but I do understand why it is popular. It is bloodsport. It is an unfortunate part of human nature, but that is a powerful meme (how many 'the most dangerous prey' plots have you encountered in books/movies/tv episodes). Gnatty is correct that there is an element to the hip-hop/rap culture that participates in dogfighting, I've seen plenty of videos that include a pit bull on a chain (sometimes gold). The Gabba Ghoul hits the nail on the head. I'm in Atlanta and this was on WSB750 while I was in the shower: Vick had an alias he used (oggie?) and the Feds have testimony from witnesses about Vick chastising a dogfight MC (not sure what to call him) for calling him out by his real name. So early, it looks like Vick was not only aware of the illegality but on record taking active measures to maintain a ficticious identity. Not looking good for Vick. While I agree Blank is being put on the spot, it sounds like there may be a very real possibility of the NFL stepping in and taking the decision out of Blank's hands.

Personally, I feel that the elimination of these sorts of 'sports' or more properly gambling is a mark of a civilized society that seeks to guide our human nature to its better angels.


----------



## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

radix023 said:


> I don't condone it, but I do understand why it is popular. It is bloodsport. *It is an unfortunate part of human nature*, but that is a powerful meme (how many 'the most dangerous prey' plots have you encountered in books/movies/tv episodes).


I want to make sure I don't misunderstand you here, but I don't think that it's any more a part of human nature than what Jeffrey Dahmer did was part of human nature*. What drives this behavior is a distortion of human nature. It's evidence of a sickness in human nature. This has nothing to do with pure competitive drive or pure survival instinct. This is watching stuff die for the thrill of watching it die. It's sick. I neither condone it nor understand it. Nor do I want to.

As for PETA, I'm a conservative and have no love for PETA. If stopping this stuff were what PETA were all about they'd get my support. I'm afraid that instead of focusing on the evils of dogfighting they'll try to turn it on it's head and make the outrage people feel about this into outrage about other elements of their fringe agenda. It won't work, but that won't stop them.

*EDIT: Just because humans do it doesn't necessarily mean it's part of human nature.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Arthur Blank is one of the most two faced ammoral busines leaders I ever worked for.


----------



## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> I want to make sure I don't misunderstand you here, but I don't think that it's any more a part of human nature than what Jeffrey Dahmer did was part of human nature*. What drives this behavior is a distortion of human nature. It's evidence of a sickness in human nature. This has nothing to do with pure competitive drive or pure survival instinct. This is watching stuff die for the thrill of watching it die. It's sick. I neither condone it nor understand it. Nor do I want to.
> 
> As for PETA, I'm a conservative and have no love for PETA. If stopping this stuff were what PETA were all about they'd get my support. I'm afraid that instead of focusing on the evils of dogfighting they'll try to turn it on it's head and make the outrage people feel about this into outrage about other elements of their fringe agenda. It won't work, but that won't stop them.
> 
> *EDIT: Just because humans do it doesn't necessarily mean it's part of human nature.


I think this would be a better world were you right, but I respectfully disagree. You did not misunderstand me.


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

fir3fox said:


> Its manageable.
> 
> Kobe hasn't suffered from it. He's back on top w/ jersey sales and still headlines promotion when the Lakers come to town.


In the grand scheme of things, Kobe having sex behind his wife's back is a little less "offensive" than sanctioning dog fighting.


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

I spent the day today at the vet with my miniature dachshund, all 4lbs of her, because she got a stick used to hold up my miniature bonzai trees lodged in her throat. I was so traumatized by the days events, by my own failure to properly observe her, etc., and then I came home and read the entire article about what Vick is charged with (electrocuting, throwing to the ground, drowning of dogs, just to begin). These species of animal lives to please humans. They will die for you simply because you care for them, no other reason. Their loyalty is absolute, regardless of what you do to them. Imagine then torturing such an animal, one that is completely loyal to you. I am sorry, but this just sickens me, especially so in light of todays events for my poor little Lucy. Finally, what on earth would drive a person who has just signed a contract for more money than most corporations will make in ten years to engage in such a stupid and horrific activity? I simply cannot comprehend the evil necessary to do such a thing.


----------



## TheSaint (Jun 28, 2005)

That is the wonderful thing about pets. Their love for you is unconditional. They don't care how you look, your race, color, sex, politics, language etc etc. All they ever want from you is food and love. If indeed these "alleged" charges are true about Vick, I hope they throw the entire "book" store at him. Keep in mind that innocent until proven guilty.

Cheers
TheSaint


----------



## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

radix023 said:


> I think this would be a better world were you right, but I respectfully disagree. You did not misunderstand me.


I find this sad on a couple of levels:

1. I don't know anyone in my world that engages in this level of depravity (yes, there are levels of depravity). Perhaps you do and for that I'm truely sorry. That said it looks from my point of view like aberrant behavior, not as you say "just human nature".
2. It exhibits an unfortunate willingness to simply accept this sort of behavior as part of the human condition. If we so willingly give in to it, then we make it so.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

One man's depravity is another man's culture.

The Romans had all sorts of animal contests, not to mention gladiators fighting to the death.

Bullbaiting and bear baiting were widely popular (regularly scheduled, twice a week in some pits) for over 600 years in Britain until they were banned in the early 1800s. Dogfighting continuned in London.

Bullfighting is still legal in Spain and parts of the Hispanic world.

Cockfighting is still legal in Louisanna. It was legal in New Mexico until this year. It's still widely practiced around the world. It's even legal in France.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's not a historical exception to the human condition and there are countless more examples I'm sure.


----------



## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

crazyquik said:


> One man's depravity is another man's culture.
> 
> The Romans had all sorts of animal contests, not to mention gladiators fighting to the death.
> 
> ...


Although I hate to admit it, I'm a sucker for historical accuracy. You're right. I'm wrong. It's still sick.


----------



## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

Mark from Plano said:


> 2. It exhibits an unfortunate willingness to simply accept this sort of behavior as part of the human condition. If we so willingly give in to it, then we make it so.


I think you're projecting something on me here I didn't say. I'm glad the "sport" is illegal. I will not tolerate it myself and would call police if I thought someone was involved with it. To combat the evils in society, we need to see them clearly.


----------



## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

The amount of knee-jerking over this story today has been amazing. How do you folks feel about poultry-farms and cattle processing? The pit-bull was bred to fight- it's in the animal's nature and they probably love doing it. Fighting is a hell of a lot closer to a natural existance for a dog than than being kept locked in a house for 23 hours of the day, to be honest. Some aspects of the sport are less than ethical, but having seen first-hand all the steps between cow/chicken and packaged meat on the grocery shelf, Im not inclined to moralize from any soapbox.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

PennGlock said:


> The amount of knee-jerking over this story today has been amazing. How do you folks feel about poultry-farms and cattle processing? The pit-bull was bred to fight- it's in the animal's nature and they probably love doing it. Fighting is a hell of a lot closer to a natural existance for a dog than than being kept locked in a house for 23 hours of the day, to be honest. Some aspects of the sport are less than ethical, but having seen first-hand all the steps between cow/chicken and packaged meat on the grocery shelf, Im not inclined to moralize from any soapbox.


It's more than just the dog fighting...it's the other cruelty involved (beating, shooting, choking, drowning, and electrocuting the losing animal) seems to me that the beef/poultry industry kills my steak dinner in a much more humaine fashion than that...


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Given how we treat chickens in the food industry, how there can be an ethical objection to cockfighting is beyond me! If the doctrine of metempsychosis is true and for my many and grievous sins I am condemned to come back as a chicken, I would far rather live out my days as a fighting cock than as a broiler capon.

Dogfighting is a crucible that produces some of the best dogs in the world.

That said, I am profoundly uncomfortable with the callous disregard for life that characterizes a lot of that subculture--not so much for the occasional dog that is killed in the ring, but the relentless culling of losing dogs. However, many other dogs used in other activities (hunting, etc.) are culled if they don't measure up.

Dogfighting is still legal in Japan, but the fighting is far more humanely conducted. Losing dogs are not typically killed but often given a chance to make a comeback. I have spend many hours watching dogfighting tapes from Japan involving the Tosa (the Japanese fighting dog and my favorite breed). The fights usually get somewhat boring after awhile.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

What bothers me the most about this so called sport is the disreguard for these animals... 

I own two dogs...both were trained by a very elite dog trainer...through observing the training process, I've come to understand these animals much better...pits may have fighting in their blood...but...they are by no means vicious, unless people make them that way...the people who make them that way are usually assholes...

I think perhaps this could be seen as a sport...a disgusting sport...but a sport none the less...if these animals weren't treated with such blatant disreguard...I mean...I don't think baseball would have such a big following if we took the losing team to the middle of the diamond and slaughtered them after the game...

...but then again...I could be totally wrong...


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

- - - although when the closer blows a 3 run lead - - -

Seriously, Gabba, I agree with your post.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Isn't it ironic how frequently one's pet(s) seem more intelligent and show greater loyalty and more compassion towards their owner(s), than the other way around. Says a lot about the human condition!


----------



## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

9 Michael Vick excuses for running a dog fighting ring, by Jeff Goldstein.


----------



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Trenditional said:


> In the grand scheme of things, Kobe having sex behind his wife's back is a little less "offensive" than sanctioning dog fighting.


Thinking by analogy, I'm not sure my wife would agree. But perhaps yours is more understanding. ;-)


----------



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> One man's depravity is another man's culture.
> 
> The Romans had all sorts of animal contests, not to mention gladiators fighting to the death.
> 
> ...


And isn't dog-fighting legal in Georgia? I'm pretty sure I read that recently. Of course, I'm not suggesting that it should be. But it is true that society's mores do change. There was a time our society would have thought that the deliberate killing of unborn children was savagery. Today we have a wider consensus, apparently, regarding dog-fighting. 
We'd like to think that our mores become more developed over time -- i.e., more in keeping with some highly refined objective moral law. Perhaps, but I'm just not sure that is so clear. We are a complicated species, capable of great sacrifice grounded in genuine love and charity as well as great meanness grounded in selfishness and delusion, most especially delusion.
That's why, bad Catholic that I am, in my final days I shall rely on mercy more than anything else. I feel for Vick, I do, but his cruelty does deserve punishment.


----------



## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

Mike Petrik said:


> And isn't dog-fighting legal in Georgia? I'm pretty sure I read that recently.


It is not, Georgia law states:

OCGA§ 16-12-37. Dogfighting

(a) A person commits the offense of dogfighting when he causes or allows a dog to fight another dog for sport or gaming purposes or maintains or operates any event at which dogs are allowed or encouraged to fight one another.

(b) A person convicted of the offense of dogfighting shall be punished by a mandatory fine of $5,000.00 or by a mandatory fine of $5,000.00 and imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than five years.

There is a proposed bill to tighten the definition, increase the penalties, and make it more enforceable.


----------



## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

JLibourel said:


> Dogfighting is a crucible that produces some of the best dogs in the world.


Best dogs in the world for what?


----------



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Rocker,
It is as plain as the emblem by your name that you are biased on this matter and not to be trusted. 
And I am certain that I read about dog-fighting's legality in GA in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. I am embarrassed for allowing myself to once again assume the ajc to be a reliable source. My bad.
Now, down boy, down!


----------



## Bog (May 13, 2007)

People bet on men fighting, why not dogs?


----------



## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

Mike Petrik said:


> Rocker,
> It is as plain as the emblem by your name that you are biased on this matter and not to be trusted.
> And I am certain that I read about dog-fighting's legality in GA in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. I am embarrassed for allowing myself to once again assume the ajc to be a reliable source. My bad.
> Now, down boy, down!


The current state of Georgia law on dog-fighting:
a) only penalizes the actual person putting the dogs in the ring, not the breeders, organizers, transporters and all the other people involved
b) requires that the perpetrator is caught red-handed

As was already noted, this story is putting new legs on a bill in the current legislature to increase the categories of penalty and ease the burden of proof on prosecutors.


----------



## hcivic91 (Aug 29, 2006)

Who cares about the dog fighting aspects, I don't find that aspect of this story most heinous. You guys can debate its reasons for popularity all you want, it is Vick's treatment and execution of the dogs thats most noteworthy here. It's alleged that he electrocuted a dog, if true, solely based on that, he should do a lot of jail time! Not to mention how he killed others! True dogs are animals, but no animal deserves treatment like that. It turns my stomach just to think of it. If you disagree, I suggest that you, along with Vick, need your head examined.


----------



## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

Bogdanoff said:


> People bet on men fighting, why not dogs?


Becasue, it's despicable:

https://www.workingpitbull.com/dogfighting2.htm
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19836601/site/newsweek/?GT1=10150

https://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/sadreality2.html
https://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/sadreality3.html


----------



## hcivic91 (Aug 29, 2006)

I'm all fired-up.

Lets pretend for a minute that dog-fighting is ok, which its not. Imagine an individual dog has been breed and trained to fight. Now for some reason it can't anymore (injury, too old, etc..) Letting that dog lose or to an owner would be like giving a gun to a child, an explosive situation to say the least. So the dog must be destroyed. There are a lot better ways to do so than hanging, electrocution and slamming it repeatedly. I'm sure these ignorant men could have found a much better way euthanize the dogs, particularly given the profits secured by their enterprise. This proves these guys are savages; I'm embarrassed to share air with men who defend this behavior let alone call him an icon, hero or role-model.

BTW:
My wife has a dog which I don't care for at all, in fact I'm not an animal guy in the least. Despite my feelings I wouldn't even consider pulling his tail.


----------



## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Being originally from Atlanta and therefore somewhat of a default Falcons fan (though I'm not really that in to NFL), I'm hoping that this might get Vick off of the team so that someone else can step in and hopefully help the Falcons play better.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Our first domesticated animal was the dog, or, more properly wolves of suitable temperment. It is even postulated early humans entered into a collaboration with wolf packs. The two species share social behaviors and organization closer than even our near relatives the chimpanzees ( a rather nasty bunch in spite of Doctor Jane Goodall's pretty personna.) Dogs gave several advantages; a constant sentry system, hunters, light draft animals and even in dire conditions food. Then we started domesticating the very animals we hunted together. More than any animal, Cattle have shaped and influenced our economies. It is no wonder Bulls were worshipped, Minoans performed gymnastic feats leaping over their horns, the great caves of southern France painted with them, and to this day bullfights and the preliminary running of the bulls in Pamplona. The horse was finally domesticated, probably on the great steppes after being wiped out in it's ancestral home of North America and being eaten for millenia.The horse powered conquest and war. The irony is all three animals; dog,bovine and horse have been genetically modified far away from their wild ancestors with few exceptions. The wolf is hunted and exterminated, the buffalo nearly so, and Brumbys and Mustangs still subject to heated debate if not bullet and dogfood can. And what of Us? At least when the chimps tear a still living monkey or even juvenile from another clan they make no hypocrisy in their raucus vocalisations of celebrations. OLE'!


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

*Events as of 7/19*

Just looking at it from the view of an NFL fan, it is interesting to see what unfolded, today:

MV: In a call to Arthur Blank "I'm sorry."

A Blank: To paraphrase,"we are going to do the right thing."

NFL office: Again to paraphrase, "we're going to let due process play itself out"

NIKE: Due to release a M Vick shoe next month to retailers; "we're going to suspend the introduction of the shoes". (May see these on STP, if you are interested.)


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Well...I wont hold my breath for anything to be done...

Jeez...I never thought i'd say this, but I feel sorry for PacMan Jones and Tank Johnson (Especially Tank, as he got clipped for a DUI, when he wasnt even drunk, now his career is basically over)...our fearless commish is showing his true colors (yellow) and proving that his new behavior policy or WTF ever that thing is called has zero in the way of teeth...it's one thing to lower the boom on two second tier stars...but if he really wanted to show the fans, the league, and the players that he was serious, he would have dropped the hammer on this guy...basically from what I've seen transpire today is they are going to go so far as to even let this clown play until he's proven guilty...

...and I doubt with all the other defendants in this thing he'll be the one to swing for it...I'm sure with his money he'll get one of his buddies to take the rap for it, and he'll be back in the Georga Dome soaking in the ovation of the mindless...one can only hope that he breaks his ankle or something trying to repeat his rushing performance from last season...


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I just heard on TV that the NFL and his team have decided to take no action until the legal proceedings run their course.

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19814494/

Is this consistent with what they've done with other NFL player/criminals? I think there was a guy they call Pac-Man or something like that? Has he been convicted?


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Rocker said:


> Best dogs in the world for what?


They make wonderful companion dogs--intelligent, loyal, obedient, great with children (the well-bred examples, anyway). They are laid-back and don't need to fight to be happy and content.

My family kept pit bulls over a hundred years ago. I have been keeping Japanese fighting dogs (Tosas) in recent years, and they are wonderful dogs. I have loved every one I've owned dearly. I just wish they lived longer.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

I heard on the radio today that the NFL has banned sales of the #7 Falcons jersey customized with the names Ookie, Pit Bull and Bad Newz. Ron Mexico is also on the list of banned names. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

jackmccullough said:


> I just heard on TV that the NFL and his team have decided to take no action until the legal proceedings run their course.
> 
> https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19814494/
> 
> Is this consistent with what they've done with other NFL player/criminals? I think there was a guy they call Pac-Man or something like that? Has he been convicted?


You're thinking of PacMan Jones, I believe he plays for the Titans. He was accused of being involved in a shooting outside a strip club and the NFL did not wait for a conviction. To be fair, Jones had prior convictions and was on probation. It's not quite apples to apples.


----------



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Good commentary from Jason Whitlock


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

radix023 said:


> You're thinking of PacMan Jones, I believe he plays for the Titans. He was accused of being involved in a shooting outside a strip club and the NFL did not wait for a conviction. To be fair, *Jones had prior convictions* and was on probation. It's not quite apples to apples.


Vick has had priors aswell...let's just face it...the team, the league, and the supposed hard line comissioner are all showing favorites in this case...it really makes me so sick I dont even want to watch football this season...

like I said before...not only did PacMan Jones get a raw deal...but Tank Johnson really got screwed, the league dropped the bomb on him, then the team cut him, all over a DUI, which as it turns out, he wasnt "UI" at all...but do you think they even though about giving either of these guys the "benefit of the doubt"? and no, they really shouldnt, but if Ron Mexico is allowed to so much as suit up for practice "because he deserves a fair trial" then both PacMan and Tank should be reinstated until further notice...

'least...that's the way I see it...


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> Of course, I'm not suggesting that it should be. But it is true that society's mores do change. There was a time our society would have thought that the deliberate killing of unborn children was savagery. Today we have a wider consensus, apparently, regarding dog-fighting.
> We'd like to think that our mores become more developed over time -- i.e., more in keeping with some highly refined objective moral law. Perhaps, but I'm just not sure that is so clear.


Or you could take the opposite side and say we struggle daily with a world that is growing further and further away from moral law.

In many ways this is the conservative vs liberal arguement.


----------



## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

*The Ongoing Saga*

Getiing back strictly to the NFL aspect of this tragedy, ESPN today has what appears to be a picture of the outcome.

Blank wants the problem to go away without taking a principled stand, as apparently does Roger Goodell. Goodell didn't hesitate to drop the hammer on a defensive back, and a defensive tackle. (What a wus!) As it turned out, the tackle is out for 8 games, and wasn't even guilty of what he was charged with,after "due process" was allowed to work itself out. (Sorry about that, Tank. Mistakes were made.)

Thus, according to ESPN, MV is going to be begged to take a paid ($6 million), leave of absence for the entire season. MV has apparently yet to decide if he will accept this resolution. If he doesn't, the season could be a nightmare for the Falcons. Distractions of the trial, distractions for the team, a new coach, and the predictable pickets and demonstrations at games.

It would seem to send a positive message to the public, and everyone else in the NFL, if Blank and Goodell stated that MV was going to be suspended for the season, without pay. If not convicted, he would be reinstated with back pay. If convicted, or if he pleas out, banned for life. " If that doesn't seem fair, Michael, sue us."

Blank to gopher: "get Daunte on the line, right away".

What a zoo!

ESPN says that MV is adding to his legal staff. Probably a good idea. Don't know if his ticket works in VA, but Nifong may be available.


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> The animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals has scheduled a protest in front of the league offices in New York on Friday morning.
> 
> "This is to show our frustration over the NFL's failure to take a strong stance against Michael Vick," PETA spokesman Dan Shannon said.


Here comes PETA!

Vick would have been better off to have been smuggling in illegal immigrants and found in possession of illegal guns and drugs.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Good article on the subject from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch:


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I note that in the Post-Dispatch commentary, the columnist cites Jim Brown among the admirable generation of older black athletes who were "men of social conscience and resolve." As I recall, he was involved in some very unsavory incidents of violence against women, in one of which he threw a woman off a balcony or out of a second-story window or something like that.


----------



## wereed (Aug 1, 2006)

Bogdanoff said:


> People bet on men fighting, why not dogs?


Because we don't shoot, hang, or electrocute the loser of boxing fights. Good enough reason?

For once, I'm actually glad PETA is getting involved in something. I hope they'll put pressure on Blank (and better yet, the NFL) to get rid of this thug for once and for all. The Falcons, from a winning perspective, won't be too sad to see him go, especially since he makes more news off the field than on it. What a waste of talent.

Walt


----------



## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I should preface this and say "I live outside of town". For instance, there is a house nearby with a permanent flagpole in the front yard flying a Confederate Flag! 

That said, I was speaking with my neighbor this afternoon and a lady walked by with a pitbull. So, I said, "Hey, what about that MV deal - weird huh?"

My neighbor says, "Yeah, they just have it out for MV. People fight dogs all over. It should be legal. They do it just down the road here. I've been invited. Haven't you been? Those dogs aren't good for anything anyway. They love to fight."

Thank God it started raining and I had an excuse to come inside.


----------



## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

JRR said:


> Good commentary from Jason Whitlock


So this guy is blaming this obscene behaviour on, um, rap music?

OK. Sounds like a major cop out.

Funny how rap music never led me or my friends to torture animals. GMAFB with these loser athletes already.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Just my $.02, but I think how a person treats animals is pretty indicative of their nature. There is a big difference from quickly killing a creature to eat it vs. taking pleasure of one sort or another in the death of a creature as advanced as a dog or cat.


----------



## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I think the problem with the article is the last two paragraphs



> Ray Lewis was at the scene of a double murder, failed initially to cooperate with police and eventually pleaded guilty to obstruction-of-justice charges. Ray used to be in love with his street cred, too. It took double-murder charges to knock some sense into one of the game's best linebackers.
> 
> He changed, and he certainly has been an asset to the NFL ever since. Will the same thing happen to Michael Vick? I doubt it, but I certainly hope so.


Apparently, it's ok to do the crime as long as you grow and change.


----------



## Bog (May 13, 2007)

wereed said:


> Because we don't shoot, hang, or electrocute the loser of boxing fights. Good enough reason?


Not really. How about it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Saddam_Hussein

If you are going to treat the dogs like they don't deserve to be pitted against each other, you should do the same for humans. Otherwise, just ain't fair. Word on the street is, same people who cry over dogs fighting, invest much money into pitting men against each other, and won't rise up to the standard and treat humans decently.


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

As a matter of interest, boxing in the 19th century was a sort of semi-outlaw subculture much like dog fighting. Many prominent boxers of that era were also pit dog men. Yet boxing gained respectability in the 1920s, while today the pit dog men are hated outcasts, almost universally abhorred.


----------



## Bog (May 13, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> As a matter of interest, boxing in the 19th century was a sort of semi-outlaw subculture much like dog fighting. Many prominent boxers of that era were also pit dog men. Yet boxing gained respectability in the 1920s, while today the pit dog men are hated outcasts, almost universally abhorred.


Probably because dog gamblers aren't paying taxes on their winnings! We had the same campaign recently to outlaw internet gambling -- too much money going offshore, and not enough to legal gambling with state government owned lottery ticket counter. I suspect a similar hypocrisy is at work here.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> I note that in the Post-Dispatch commentary, the columnist cites Jim Brown among the admirable generation of older black athletes who were "men of social conscience and resolve." As I recall, he was involved in some very unsavory incidents of violence against women, in one of which he threw a woman off a balcony or out of a second-story window or something like that.


Great lacrosse player though. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

ksinc said:


> I should preface this and say "I live outside of town". For instance, there is a house nearby with a permanent flagpole in the front yard flying a Confederate Flag!
> 
> That said, I was speaking with my neighbor this afternoon and a lady walked by with a pitbull. So, I said, "Hey, what about that MV deal - weird huh?"
> 
> My neighbor says, "Yeah, they just have it out for MV. People fight dogs all over. It should be legal. They do it just down the road here. I've been invited. Haven't you been? Those dogs aren't good for anything anyway. They love to fight."


Occasionally our local newspaper will report someone getting arrested for animal fighting so I take it that's a pretty good indicator that it happens here too. There are two houses I know of that keep fighting cocks behind them. Cockfighting seems to be growing in popularity with the waves of new undocumented neighbors.

Maybe once 50%+ of NM and AZ is Hispanic those states can change the laws to legalize bullfighting and cockfighting again. Hooray for cultural diversity!


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> Occasionally our local newspaper will report someone getting arrested for animal fighting so I take it that's a pretty good indicator that it happens here too. There are two houses I know of that keep fighting cocks behind them. Cockfighting seems to be growing in popularity with the waves of new undocumented neighbors.
> 
> Maybe once 50%+ of NM and AZ is Hispanic those states can change the laws to legalize bullfighting and cockfighting again. Hooray for cultural diversity!


another unfortunate side effect of opening the floodgates and allowing this element into our country...


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> another unfortunate side effect of opening the floodgates and allowing this element into our country...


Heh Gabba, the people doing bullfighting and cockfighting where I live were here, on this very land, before half of my ancestors hit the New World. Do not forget, a large part of the current US was part of Mexico not all that long ago.


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

*This doesn't look so good for Vick*

Apparently the feds have flipped one of his co-defendants.

https://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/07/30/vick.dogfighting/index.html

In the same story we see charges by the NAACP that the federal charges against Vick constitute "piling on". 
The president of the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP criticized the prosecution of Vick at a news conference Monday morning. Dr. R.L. White, Jr., accused the government of "piling on."

"There's a penalty in football for piling on," White told reporters. "After a player has been tackled and somebody piles on, they're penalized for unnecessary roughness. Today, the NAACP blows the whistle and warns the powers that be that you are piling on."

I don't see how this makes any sense. It's not as though he's already been successfully prosecuted in one forum, and now they are hitting him again. He hasn't been convicted in any forum, although the testimony of his accomplice will make his conviction more likely.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

There are a lot of black people who are screwed by the legal system because of prejudice. A big factor for them is the lack of money for proper representation. A lot of the people who get caught in the system like this have educational deficiencies, etc. that do get them off to a poor start and possibly make a life of crime seem more appealing than it would otherwise be.

Michael Vick has none of these disadvantages and if (and there is a lot of evidence that he has) he has done these things, he deserves what is happening. 

The NAACP could better spend its political capital helping the "average black guy" work into our system better and fighting real prejudice.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> "There's a penalty in football for piling on," White told reporters. "After a player has been tackled and somebody piles on, they're penalized for unnecessary roughness. Today, the NAACP blows the whistle and warns the powers that be that you are piling on."


Good quote Jack, thanks for posting it. A very interesting little peek into this person's inner landscape to see he feels that he is the arbiter for the legal system.


----------



## hcivic91 (Aug 29, 2006)

Conversation with my personal legal advisor this weekend turned to this subject. Despite being a lawyer, this advisor is a man of the highest moral and ethical character. I make that statement because he, in a way, thinks this is being handled in the wrong way.

He stated that the county should have picked out one or two of the worst offenses and charged Vick with those. While they would be leaving something on the table they would do a much better job of ensuring victory for the people and punishment for Vick.

Think about it; Vick probably has more money than the entire county budget! And undoubtedly he will use ever last cent to stay out of prison. He will bury the prosecutor's office in paperwork and hold the trial up with an endless number of motions. All of that is decreased exponentially if the number of charges is reduced from >60 to <5, and likewise the opportunity for prosecutorial error and reasonable doubt.

I tend to agree, in this case less looks like it could be more. I think the charges the NAACP make are totally unfounded however. I would guess the county threw the kitchen skin at Vick hoping something will ultimately stick. Bottom line, the judicial system is not really designed to deal with a situation like this for an array of reasons and Vick and Co. will work to exploit those.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

hcivic91 said:


> Conversation with my personal legal advisor this weekend turned to this subject. Despite being a lawyer, this advisor is a man of the highest moral and ethical character. I make that statement because he, in a way, thinks this is being handled in the wrong way.
> 
> He stated that the county should have picked out one or two of the worst offenses and charged Vick with those. While they would be leaving something on the table they would do a much better job of ensuring victory for the people and punishment for Vick.
> 
> ...


I may be mistaken, but I thought Vick was being prosecuted by the US Attorneys office. Don't they win the vast majority of their cases?


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

I was quite amused the other day when I was at the Nike Outlet, and saw Vick's merch all selling for rock bottom prices ($30 for a pair of shoes)...so I'm thinking...cool...maybe some kids without alot of money can afford some Nikes (hopefully they'd still take that lame's name off them, but they're still Nikes)...any who, I bought a copule pairs of other shoes (Jordans and some Trainers, no Vicks although I was thinking about getting a pair and making a video for YouTube of a Pit using one of his shoes as a chew toy)...anywho...I went to lunch afterwards with my mother, when I showed her the trainers, I realized that I didnt like the color, so I went to take them back...when I did, the lady at the counter gave me a 20% off coupon, but it had to be used within 2 hours, so I decided to pick another pair of shoes, there were some Lebrons by the Jordans that I liked, so as I'm walking back to try on the Lebrons, I walk past the spot where Ron Mexico's crap was and an employee was clearing all of his junk off the shelves...I asked about it casually, and I guess the order had come directly from Beaverton that Ron Mexico's crap was to be pulled from shelves immediately...

I was glad to see this...I was also glad to see that Reebok isn't going to sell this loser's jersey anymore...


----------



## hcivic91 (Aug 29, 2006)

I haven't the foggiest and may have spoken out of turn on that point, sorry. Mostly the argument stays the same; some office must deal with the endless red-tape that Vick's team will produce. The marginal benefit of the additional charges is far outweighed by the marginal cost of pursuing them. Both cost in the financial sense but also in the risk sense, risk of getting a conviction on 1 or 2 charges vs. no conviction.


A legal analogy to a business I know a little more about, patents. I'm not an attorney but I've seen this play out several times. Company A infringes on series of companies B patents. Company B picks the most egregious and winnable offense and files suit. Much like the Vick case if you win that one case you've got them by the..... and there is no need to worry about the other offenses. Air-tight is air-tight: civil or criminal. 

60+ charges are just too many. Maybe the people are required to level charges on all known counts?


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Well, it looks like he will plead guilty.


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

As bizzare as it might seem I heard some commentator on the radio at lunch praising Vick for "keeping real." If Vick is authentic then give me fake every time.

Karl


----------



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> As bizzare as it might seem I heard some commentator on the radio at lunch praising Vick for "keeping real." If Vick is authentic then give me fake every time.
> 
> Karl


Well if he spends time in jail his "street cred" will sky rocket. It's a different world.


----------



## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Sometimes I think that "keeping it real" is code for "Please excuse my criminal behavior"


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Ken,

And to think, Vick didn't even have to comply with Sarbanes-Oxley!

Karl


----------



## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

You mean "Bad Newz Kennels" is not a public corporation?


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Ken,

Surely he would have been convicted just for the name of the operation alone. Though in Vick's defense, I bet it was a very "classy" operation for a dog fighting ring (See Karl89's Rule Number 1 - "Anything called classy never is.")


Karl


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Well, it looks like he will plead guilty.


I just saw that on Yahoo. I wonder what deal he made? 
https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-vickfuture082007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


----------



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

I think he's pleading guilty to something smaller to avoid the RICO charges and minimize jail time. If he got convicted of anything related to gambling, it would be impossible for him to return to the NFL because it would tarnish the reputation of the sport. 

If he's pleading guilty, he should do his time, but he should be allowed to return to the sport once he's out, provided there is a team out there willing to sign him. He should also do some type of community service (on a voluntary basis) like talking to kids at schools about the perils of dog-fighting. Sort a right-the-wrong thing. But even 12 months in jail is a stiff sentence.


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

..and then the NAACP got involved 
The president of the NAACP chapter in Atlanta R. L. White said "...he does not support dogfighting and that he considers it as bad as hunting. "His crime is, it was a dog," White said.
What!? Hunting is as bad as dog fighting!? Give me a break...

Brian


----------



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

I think the NAACP was right on the money in their statement. 

Besides the kennel name "Bad Newz Kennels" is a reference to the nick-name the area has. Because of Newport News' high crime rate, many people refer to it as Bad Newz, Va.


----------



## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

If Michael Vick wanted to see dogs fight, why didn't he just watch The View?

(rimshot)


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

VS said:


> If Michael Vick wanted to see dogs fight, why didn't he just watch The View?
> 
> (rimshot)


Vey nice 

Brian


----------



## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*NAACP*

I wonder if the guy at the NAACP who wants a second chance for Vick would support a second chance for Imus?


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Elisabeth from Survivor is no dog!!


----------



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> Here comes PETA!
> 
> Vick would have been better off to have been smuggling in illegal immigrants and found in possession of illegal guns and drugs.


PETA would be ok with that, as long as he used the guns only to shoot people. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Here's a different view of it:

Beat a Woman? Play On! Beat a Dog? You're Gone


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

VS said:


> If Michael Vick wanted to see dogs fight, why didn't he just watch The View?
> 
> (rimshot)


A friend of mine who had considerable contact with a lot of old-time dogfighters said they didn't like b#tch fights because they were "too vicious." "And these are DOGFIGHTERS," he exclaimed.


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

vwguy said:


> What!? Hunting is as bad as dog fighting!? Give me a break...
> 
> Brian


Well, I don't know about that. Let's say, back when my dog Dempsey was still alive, my stepson and I had driven down to his breeder's and rolled him against his brother for 15 minutes. He would in all probability have been an eager, enthusiastic participant in the goings-on, gotten chawed up a little and been just fine in three weeks or so. Yet I would be condemned as a soulless degenerate and guilty of a felony if detected.

Now, let's say I guided my boy through a hunter safety course, got him a license and we went up to the mountains and shot a buck through the lungs. He runs 50 yards and piles up drowning in his own blood. Certainly, at least in "Red State" culture, my role in this would be seen as character-building for the lad--"A boy's first buck," healthy outdoor recreation and whatnot.

Yet who is worse off--Dempsey, who got chewed up a little, or the buck who was shot through the lungs and drowned in his own blood? And that's assuming a best-case scenario for the deer. Every season countless thousands of game animals and birds escape wounded to die lingering deaths or to be pulled down by predators.

I think the big difference is that a lot of rich, powerful people like hunting. Dog fighting and cocking are mostly the preserve of poor and marginalized people.

And I am not anti-hunting.


----------



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

https://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTAxOWViZTY4ZWVlODA2NzllNGU1ODc0ZTA5ZGE5N2Q=


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Ruh roh!


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

****WARNING*** Disturbing images below***WARNING*** *



JLibourel said:


> Well, I don't know about that. Let's say, back when my dog Dempsey was still alive, my stepson and I had driven down to his breeder's and rolled him against his brother for 15 minutes. He would in all probability have been an eager, enthusiastic participant in the goings-on, gotten chawed up a little and been just fine in three weeks or so. Yet I would be condemned as a soulless degenerate and guilty of a felony if detected.
> 
> Now, let's say I guided my boy through a hunter safety course, got him a license and we went up to the mountains and shot a buck through the lungs. He runs 50 yards and piles up drowning in his own blood. Certainly, at least in "Red State" culture, my role in this would be seen as character-building for the lad--"A boy's first buck," healthy outdoor recreation and whatnot.
> 
> ...


The difference is we're not talking about getting "chawed up a little"...








you call that "chawed up a little"??? You think your pooch would've "been eager" to participate in an activity that would leave him looking like that???









how about that??? You think he would have "been fine in three weeks or so" after that??? You don't think taht somebody who puts an animal through something where they end up looking like that is a "soulless degenerate"???

To steal a line from Dennis Miller (at least I think it was Dennis Miller who said that), I'd call these guys scumbags, but then I'd be doing an injustice to bags filled with scum...

Look at it like this...would you rather get into a tussle with somebody and...

A) Get repeatedly slammed to death on the concrete, or held under water until you drowned, or electrocuted, or lynched by somebody you regarded as a friend after you lost

or

B)killed with one bullet

I dunno, I mean, yes I hunt, but, I believe in things like Fair Chase and one shot-one kill...yes, it can still be looked at as barbaric, but there's really no way you can compare capping one deer from hundreds of feet away (after you've put down good money for the license), and murdering multiple dogs in some of the most disgusting fashions imaginable...True, there are plenty of @$$hole hunters out there, but, I believe that if you really want to do it right, it's just as important to be a conservationist (ala Teddy Roosevelt) as it is to be a hunter...

...now I'm most definately not a fan of PETA or any of those other nutbags...but what's right is right...I'm sorry...I suppose I could see this thing beign a sport as long as the animals were well cared for, and not allowed to be essentially mauled to death...or brutalized for the enjoyment of ignorant numbskulls should they escape being literally torn limb from limb...

If these are the activites of the "poor, marginalized" everyman, then call me an elitist snob any day...dog is man's best friend, anybody who is capable of doing something like that to a dog is indeed a soulless degenerate, and should be locked away for a long time...


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I have seen many videos of Tosa fights lasting a half-hour. These included scenes of them being patched up afterwards. I certainly never saw anything that approached the horrible mutilation suffered by those poor pit bulls. The dogs I saw were still wagging their tails as the vet sewed up their minor lacerations.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> I have seen many videos of Tosa fights lasting a half-hour. These included scenes of them being patched up afterwards. I certainly never saw anything that approached the horrible mutilation suffered by those poor pit bulls. The dogs I saw were still wagging their tails as the vet sewed up their minor lacerations.


indeed...and that's why I say...that this thing could be run like a sport...and as long as the animals were well cared for after the fact, I doubt most people would have any real problem...but obviously the way some of these scumbags are running fights here is appauling...that's why I get so mad when I hear people trying to compare what Ron Mexico did to hunting...as I stated before, I try to be a responsible hunter (granted I only go once or twice a season), I respect nature, so that way it'll still be there for me to enjoy next hunting season...to me there can be no comparisson between something like that, and murdering dogs after letting them maul each other...all for the entertainment of some ignorant pieces of trash...

as I've said before...here's hoping that #7 catches severe beatdowns when he's in the joint...


----------



## SoutherWinds (May 24, 2007)

The Gabba Goul said:


> as I've said before...here's hoping that #7 catches severe beatdowns when he's in the joint...


I doubt anything will happen to him. As a celebrity he'll probably enjoy a nicer cell and be away from other inmates. He deserves it though...


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Is he going to spend a long time in jail?

I heard is fines is something like a total of $150 million.


----------

