# Katy Texas



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

My local evening news just mentioned a conflict in this town. It seems a pig farmer of many years residence holds pig races on Friday night. And now a muslim group purchased the adjoining land for a mosque. They finally noticed? there is a pig farm next door,and are demanding the races cease on their sabbath. Pig farmer said no, local residents have offered to rebuy the land and the moslems are making a point of refusing. Good Grief! enough is enough.


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## Jimmy G (Mar 23, 2006)

I say muslims have as much right to piss and moan as any other professional grievance group in this country https://imageshack.us


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

*Let me just ask one question*

How would people feel if, instead of pig races next door to a mosque, it was wet T-shirt contests next door to a Baptist church on Sunday mornings.

Having said that, my answer would be the same either way: too bad, guys. Follow whatever religion you want, but don't bother me with it.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

jackmccullough said:


> How would people feel if, instead of pig races next door to a mosque, it was wet T-shirt contests next door to a Baptist church on Sunday mornings.


 I think that would depend upon the contestants. :devil:


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

Gee, do you think you should have thought about what goes on next door BEFORE YOU BOUGHT THE LAND?????

If I were the farmer, I would tell the Muslims, Wiccas, Catholics, Presbyterians, Pagans, Jews or whomever was complaining to go f themselves. I was here first and you knew what was here when you made the purchase.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

fenway said:


> Gee, do you think you should have thought about what goes on next door BEFORE YOU BOUGHT THE LAND?????
> 
> If I were the farmer, I would tell the Muslims, Wiccas, Catholics, Presbyterians, Pagans, Jews or whomever was complaining to go f themselves. I was here first and you knew what was here when you made the purchase.


Usually, yes. My parents bought 20 acres of land on Putnam Road in E. Montpelier on which to build their house. There was a cute little dairy farm up the hill across the street. Ten years later when, due to the economics of scale, the farmer decided to increase his herd from 400 head to 1000 head, the accumulation of non-dairy cow product (you figger it out - comes from the end opposite the head) began literally sliding down the hill.

Next time maybe they'll listen to me and buy the land across the street from the Wet T-Shirt Pub.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> How would people feel if, instead of pig races next door to a mosque, it was wet T-shirt contests next door to a Baptist church on Sunday mornings.


I understand your point however I think what raises the ire of some is that the pig farm was there first. When building a place of worship should not some preparatory work be done first. Your point about a wet t-shirt contest is a bit off mark however.

A pig in and of itself is not immoral. The ingestion of pork for a muslim is. The same way as a woman is not an immoral/evil creature, maybe some, but not all. A woman fluanting her sexuality in a wet t-shirt can be viewed as immoral by both christians and muslims alike. The last I checked hog races weren't on the _haram_ list for muslims.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

The muslims should have checked this out before they bought the land. (Unless of course, they wanted a big attention-seeking public squabble.)


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> My parents bought 20 acres of land on Putnam Road in E. Montpelier on which to build their house. There was a cute little dairy farm up the hill across the street. Ten years later when, due to the economics of scale, the farmer decided to increase his herd from 400 head to 1000 head, the accumulation of non-dairy cow product (you figger it out - comes from the end opposite the head) began literally sliding down the hill.


Sounds like a real bummer.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

pt4u67 said:


> I understand your point however I think what raises the ire of some is that the pig farm was there first. When building a place of worship should not some preparatory work be done first. Your point about a wet t-shirt contest is a bit off mark however.
> 
> A pig in and of itself is not immoral. The ingestion of pork for a muslim is. The same way as a woman is not an immoral/evil creature, maybe some, but not all. A woman fluanting her sexuality in a wet t-shirt can be viewed as immoral by both christians and muslims alike. The last I checked hog races weren't on the _haram_ list for muslims.


I fully agree.

Moreover, I understand from Kav's post that the local community offered to buy them off... so, what's the problem here?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

As a practicing Catholic I would be very happy if the liturgy included pig races and a wet t-shirt contest. Sadly it seems in this regard the liturgical reforms of Vatican II did not go far enough!

As to the issue in Katy, Texas I say we accomodate the Muslims there when Christians are allowed to wear a crucifix in Saudi Arabia - or if they work for British Airways for that matter.

Karl


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> The muslims should have checked this out before they bought the land. (Unless of course, they wanted a big attention-seeking public squabble.)


 How can you say that? Shame. No way could they POSSIBLY want a big attention-getter. :devil:


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## Murrah (Mar 28, 2005)

Dhimmitude won't go over well in Texas.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

The sad thing is, Western civilization sets itself up for this stuff. I mean, all week long I have listened to how Turkey has outlawed any religious school other than Islamic ones, so the ancient Xtian sect is dying out there due to having no new leaders trained and educated. There was also talk about the two men that converted from Islam to Christ and they were on trial for that? Now in the US, the mosque people feel totally empowered to stop this farmer from doing something rather harmless that he had been doing (apparently) long before they built the new mosque.

Is it any wonder why the West is seen as weak in so many quarters?


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Usually, yes. My parents bought 20 acres of land on Putnam Road in E. Montpelier on which to build their house. There was a cute little dairy farm up the hill across the street. Ten years later when, due to the economics of scale, the farmer decided to increase his herd from 400 head to 1000 head, the accumulation of non-dairy cow product (you figger it out - comes from the end opposite the head) began literally sliding down the hill.
> 
> Next time maybe they'll listen to me and buy the land across the street from the Wet T-Shirt Pub.


Putnam Road? That's about three miles from my house. It seems like there are good views everywhere in East Montpelier, although living in the country has its drawbacks.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

fenway said:


> Gee, do you think you should have thought about what goes on next door BEFORE YOU BOUGHT THE LAND?????
> 
> If I were the farmer, I would tell the Muslims, Wiccas, Catholics, Presbyterians, Pagans, Jews or whomever was complaining to go f themselves. I was here first and you knew what was here when you made the purchase.


I agree 100%. It's called moving to the nuisance.


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> Follow whatever religion you want, but don't bother me with it.





> what raises the ire of some is that the pig farm was there first


While I wholeheartedly agree with both of these points, neither of them is really dispositive of the issue.

What controls here is the basic right of property. Each of us has the basic, human right to use and enjoy his land in any manner that does not infringe on the property rights of others.

Does the mere proximity of pigs on someone else's land infringe on an adjacent owner's property right? No, of course not. To conclude otherwise would be to invert the essential principle of property boundaries. Owner A can not legitimately force Owner B to get rid of his pigs any more than Owner B can force Owner A to acquire some pigs.

Noise and odor pollution, however, is a different issue. These effects can be so serious as to infringe on the rights of one's neighbors. I have no idea if this is a factor in the mosque-pig-racing case.


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## rjc (Mar 2, 2006)

How funny. I live in Katy, Texas and have not even heard of this. Hasn't made the local news that I have heard. 

That being said, while the Muslins should have checked before purchasing the land, there is such a thing working with your neighbor. I'm sure they were aware of the pig farmer but just were not aware of the races on their holy day. If they were polite about asking, I don't see the problem with changing the races to another day such as Saturday. If they are really DEMANDING as the news story suggests that is something else all together. 

What happened to just being being polite and being a gentleman about things.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

rjc said:


> How funny. I live in Katy, Texas and have not even heard of this. Hasn't made the local news that I have heard.
> 
> That being said, while the Muslins should have checked before purchasing the land, there is such a thing working with your neighbor. I'm sure they were aware of the pig farmer but just were not aware of the races on their holy day. If they were polite about asking, I don't see the problem with changing the races to another day such as Saturday. If they are really DEMANDING as the news story suggests that is something else all together.
> 
> What happened to just being being polite and being a gentleman about things.


Ah, a common sense approach to the situation!


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Apparently the proposed mosque isn't "demanding" that the "pig races" "cease." The promoter of the pig races has initiated the swinefest as a deliberate attempt to offend the muslim organization that is intending to build the mosque. To date there have been no pig races. What this appears to be is an old-fashioned property dispute, something that could scarcely be more American.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

We have had similar problems in Germany recently. I always find it a bit uncanny if muslims go into non-muslim neighbourhoods to build huge mosques, cultural centres, schools etc. - why don't they do it in their own quarters?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Albert said:


> We have had similar problems in Germany recently. I always find it a bit uncanny if muslims go into non-muslim neighbourhoods to build huge mosques, cultural centres, schools etc. - why don't they do it in their own quarters?


Ah, but this is the meaning of diversity. That you can leave your "own quarters" and do what you want, where you want. Just like "Gay Pride" parades. Of course, such a parade in a Muslim country would never happen; a statement in and of itself.

Lush, that puts a different shine on things. Obviously the farmer is not a happy camper to have the mosque next door. Not sure if we can legislate good feelings though.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Why don't they do it in their own quarters? Because they're entitled to buy property anywhere they want, without being discriminated against on the basis of their religion.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> Why don't they do it in their own quarters? Because they're entitled to buy property anywhere they want, without being discriminated against on the basis of their religion.


Yes, of course, but I don't see the reason to build up these large centres in quiet residential neighbourhoods with a population that doesn't really benefit from them but might on the contrary be concerned about the associated traffic, noise, whatever. I mean, it's not a big surprise that the local residents then start to demand some way of local development that addresses their concerns as well.

How about building an airport on the back of your property?


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Albert said:


> Yes, of course, but I don't see the reason to build up these large centres in quiet residential neighbourhoods with a population that doesn't really benefit from them but might on the contrary be concerned about the associated traffic, noise, whatever. I mean, it's not a big surprise that the local residents then start to demand some way of local development that addresses their concerns as well.
> 
> How about building an airport on the back of your property?


This kind of land use dispute occurs hundreds of time a day in the United States. So far as I know, most disputes of this kind do not result in complaints about the "weakness" of Western Civilization, or anguished cries that "enough is enough." Just to the east of Katy is Houston, Texas, which has long boasted that it is the largest city in the nation without zoning laws, where money alone talks when land use issues arise. (Katy itself has adopted a local zoning ordinance.) According the the 2000 Census the City of Katy had a population of 11,775, and one website devoted to the City states that Katy contains 65 places of worship. A brief review indicates that these consist of 63 Christian churches and 2 synagogues (one reform, one conservative.) Even if these holy places include those in the Greater Katy Area, which apparently has a much larger population, I still don't see that the addition of a single mosque will adversely alter the monotheistic balance. After all, one of Katy's prime tourist attractions is Forbidden Gardens, a 40 acre, $20 million recreation of the wonders of Imperial China, constructed in 1997 at the behest of one Mr. Poon, a Hong Kong real estate magnate who lives in Seattle. If Katy can survive the intrusion of that massive piece of heathen exotica, I'm sure that it will endure the establishment of one sanctuary devoted to the teachings of The Prophet - even one located next to a hog farm.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

It's worse than that. Congress, in its infinite wisdom (or in its craven desire to pander to church groups, take your pick) has enacted legislation, the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) that nearly guts land use regulation as it applies to churches by making them exempt from generally applicable regulations unless the government entity can show a compelling need.

Here's more if you're interested: https://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20061130.html


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Lushington said:


> This kind of land use dispute occurs hundreds of time a day in the United States. So far as I know, most disputes of this kind do not result in complaints about the "weakness" of Western Civilization...


Of course I was not saying the land dispute, in and of itself, in a total vacuum from the context of global geo-politics, makes the West appear weak. My point was clear.


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> It's worse than that. Congress, in its infinite wisdom (or in its craven desire to pander to church groups, take your pick) has enacted legislation, the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) that nearly guts land use regulation as it applies to churches by making them exempt from generally applicable regulations unless the government entity can show a compelling need.


Possibly. The Supreme Court has not yet ruled on the constitutionality of the land use provision of the the RLUIPA; until it does, the Ninth Circuit's decision in _San Jose Christian College _and the Seventh Circuit's decision in _Civil Liberties of Urban Believers_ may give local entites some ability to limit the wholesale application of the statute; as the religious entity has the initial burden of showing that the neutral regulation places a substantial burden on the exercise of religion. I don't know how the Fifth Circuit views the matter.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

*Sigh ...* remember the movie 'A Few Good Men'? Well, for all further discussions on *ahem* you know who/what ... here's a quote that pretty much sums it up ...

_*Jack Nicholson (Col. Jessup): &#8230; I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. &#8230; You have that luxury. &#8230; you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. &#8230; I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to! *_

*Amen*

btw, don't forget to have a good weekend


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Usually, yes. My parents bought 20 acres of land on Putnam Road in E. Montpelier on which to build their house. There was a cute little dairy farm up the hill across the street. Ten years later when, due to the economics of scale, the farmer decided to increase his herd from 400 head to 1000 head, the accumulation of non-dairy cow product (you figger it out - comes from the end opposite the head) began literally sliding down the hill.
> 
> Next time maybe they'll listen to me and buy the land across the street from the Wet T-Shirt Pub.


Or buy UPHILL from the dairy farm =)


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Lushington said:


> After all, one of Katy's prime tourist attractions is Forbidden Gardens, a 40 acre, $20 million recreation of the wonders of Imperial China, constructed in 1997 at the behest of one Mr. Poon, a Hong Kong real estate magnate who lives in Seattle. If Katy can survive the intrusion of that massive piece of heathen exotica, I'm sure that it will endure the establishment of one sanctuary devoted to the teachings of The Prophet - even one located next to a hog farm.


Please tell me Mr. Poon's partner is Ms. Tang.

These land-use fights invariably enter comic-novel territory.


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Patrick06790 said:


> Please tell me Mr. Poon's partner is Ms. Tang.


I can answer neither yea nor nay, but such is my fervent hope.



> These land-use fights invariably enter comic-novel territory


Indeed. This one certainly has. It nearly writes itself.


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

Isn't Roger Clemens from Katy?


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

I don't know, but Renee Zellweger is.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Phinn said:


> Noise and odor pollution, however, is a different issue. These effects can be so serious as to infringe on the rights of one's neighbors. I have no idea if this is a factor in the mosque-pig-racing case.


In most states -- including mine and, from what I can tell, Texas -- "right to farm" laws were enacted, mostly in the 1980s, to protect farmers from lawsuits claiming their farming infringes on the rights of neighbors. Animal smells, for instance. The farmer can't really do anything about that and still raise animals.

https://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/Ob...B-D553-438E-94E8D66498A911D7/213/243/267/ART/


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

*An expensive White Elephant!*



Lushington said:


> . After all, one of Katy's prime tourist attractions is Forbidden Gardens, a 40 acre, $20 million recreation of the wonders of Imperial China, constructed in 1997 at the behest of one Mr. Poon, a Hong Kong real estate magnate who lives in Seattle. If Katy can survive the intrusion of that massive piece of heathen exotica, I'm sure that it will endure the establishment of one sanctuary devoted to the teachings of The Prophet - even one located next to a hog farm.


I live 20 minutes from this fabulous attraction and have never been there.

Nor do I know anyone that ever has. I think Mr. Poon is one of those Billionaires with more dollars than cents!

Here's a great little article on Forbidden Gardens:

https://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/TXKATforbidden.html

It seems a little like F***ed Up Gardens!


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

rnoldh said:


> I live 20 minutes from this fabulous attraction and have never been there.
> 
> Nor do I know anyone that ever has.


I once lived within a five-minute walk of the World Famous San Diego Zoo, and not once during my three-year stay in that residence did I visit The Zoo. We are often indifferent to the marvels that are at our very doorstep.



> I think Mr. Poon is one of those Billionaires with more dollars than cents!


My preferred species of the billionaire genus. I believe it should be required of all billionaires that they pay for the construction of some ghastly public eyesore such as Forbidden Gardens. It's the least they can do.



> Here's a great little article on Forbidden Gardens:
> 
> https://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/TXKATforbidden.html


The source of such knowledge as I possess of _this_ roadside attraction.



> It seems a little like F***ed Up Gardens!


F**ked up? You want f**ked up? I tell you what's f**ked up: UCLA 13 USC 9 - that's f**ked up.


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

crs said:


> In most states -- including mine and, from what I can tell, Texas -- "right to farm" laws were enacted, mostly in the 1980s, to protect farmers from lawsuits claiming their farming infringes on the rights of neighbors. Animal smells, for instance. The farmer can't really do anything about that and still raise animals.
> 
> https://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/Ob...B-D553-438E-94E8D66498A911D7/213/243/267/ART/


Right-to-farm laws are primarily intended to protect corporate agribusiness from nuisance claims when suburban sprawl collides with modern industrial agriculture. It's one thing to shut down a small hog farmer when his new neighbors find that the smell of pig manure interferes with their newly chosen bucolic lifestyle; it's another thing all together for a huge feedlot producing more than a million pounds of cow manure per day to be compelled to relocate its operation in order to accommodate the delicate sensibilities of those residing in a newly created retirement community. When the latter happened as the result of the _Spur Industries v. Del E. Webb _case in the early 1970s, the legislative wheels began to turn in every state in the Union. But this raises an interesting point. With just the little we know of the Katy dispute we see that it may involve a conflict between the competing policies of the common law of nuisance, the RLUIPA, Texas' right-to-farm statute, the City of Katy's zoning ordinance, and more general legal and equitable principles of land use policy. Added to these are real or imagined issues of national security, religious animosity, media interest, and war time anxiety, not to mention Mr. Poon's Forbidden City On The Prairie. As is so frequently the case, things are much more complicated than they appear at first glance.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Lushington said:


> Right-to-farm laws are primarily intended to protect corporate agribusiness from nuisance claims when suburban sprawl collides with modern industrial agriculture.


That may be true for most of the nation, but there isn't a whole lot of corporate agribusiness in my state, at least not in the northern and central parts. The farmer who first told me about "right to farm" had all of 25 acres at the time, although he since acquired another 20 of preserved farmland.


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

crs said:


> That may be true for most of the nation, but there isn't a whole lot of corporate agribusiness in my state, at least not in the northern and central parts. The farmer who first told me about "right to farm" had all of 25 acres at the time, although he since acquired another 20 of preserved farmland.


Yes, every state in the Union has enacted right-to-farm statues, even those with little current agribusiness. However, some states have enacted such laws with the hope of eventually luring such enterprises in the future. The policies do differ from state to state; but as I understand the history of the matter, the impetus for much of the legislation came from agribusiness concerned about sprawl and the rising power political power of developers. Of course, as with most agricultural issues the issue is framed in the rhetorical context of "the family farm" and suchlike romantic notions; and those dwindling enterprises do benefit from the more general legislation.


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