# White Guys



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulled from a recent thread. Your thoughts?


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Pulled from a recent thread. Your thoughts?


I'm happy and proud to be a rich white American male. I hope my children and grandchildren get to be rich white American males (and females). And no, I don't believe in reparations. But I do believe in karma.

M


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

tabasco said:


> I'm happy and proud to be a rich white American male. I hope my children and grandchildren get to be rich white American males (and females). And no, I don't believe in reparations. But I do believe in karma.
> 
> M


I was not limiting it to just "American" males. I hear there are some in other countries too. Also, I did not specify "rich" either.

Cheers


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Pulled from a recent thread. Your thoughts?


I suppose it depends who you are, were you were born and at what time.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

There are good and bad in all, I believe more good than bad. I think it interesting that it is not in vouge to be a white guy these days, men of color are in demand..that is fine with me, I am colorful in my own ways. My many friends of color have been my friends for more years than it has been the thing to have, friends of color....I wish I could say I was color blind that that would be a lie, I do try to take folks for what they are, and I am fortunate to have some good friends in this world....so white guys, while I did not say proud to be one, I am proud to be who I am...


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## woodywoodson (Feb 10, 2007)

*Strange poll choices, IMO*

Why not one for "Some bad, some good, proud to be one"?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Pulled from a recent thread. Your thoughts?


I've never seen a white man. So far they've all been a pinkish/brownish color.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> I've never seen a white man. So far they've all been a pinkish/brownish color.


I usually prefer "Northern European descent" but was using the term I usually hear in common usage. The US census still has "White", every college application I have ever seen uses "White" and every EEOC section I have seen on a job application uses "White". I figured people would know what I meant.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Northern European? My dad's family is from northern Italy and looks Swiss. Does that count? Does an imaginary border exist somewhere? Maybe a color wheel?
> 
> Also, the government definition of "white" isn't limited to those of Northern European descent, e.g. caucasians, Russians etc are also included.


FrankDC, use whatever definition you want. I never said I agreed with the government definition, I said what I preferred, now did I not? However, why do you feel it is necessary to attempt to thread jack this?


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> FrankDC, use whatever definition you want. I never said I agreed with the government definition, I said what I preferred, now did I not? However, why do you feel it is necessary to attempt to thread jack this?


In this thread I think its safe to assume White equal Europeans and their descendants.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> FrankDC, use whatever definition you want. I never said I agreed with the government definition, I said what I preferred, now did I not? However, why do you feel it is necessary to attempt to thread jack this?


No hijack, just common sense. I call racism when I see it, regardless of how obfuscated it is.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> No hijack, just common sense. I call racism when I see it, regardless of how obfuscated it is.


Oh, I was being racist? LOLOLOLOLOL


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

White Males ? A fine pinata of an issue to swing at. 
Ok, I mention that American issue to confuse things further. i.e. what's white? or American (North? South?), rich relative to who? rich in spirit? courage? 
And as for that gender thing, anybody read Eguene Stephanides *Middlesex* ?
I am proud of most of what I know about my white American forefathers of Northern European (English) descent. Most of it.

M


> I figured people would know what I meant


I make that mistaken assumption all the time too.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

tabasco said:


> I make that mistaken assumption all the time too.


Heh, touche.


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> No hijack, just common sense. I call racism when I see it, regardless of how obfuscated it is.


Oh fer pete's sake Frank, Wayfarer wasn't being racist. Come on.
M


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

tabasco said:


> Oh fer pete's sake Frank, Wayfarer wasn't being racist. Come on.
> M


Thanks tabasco, but it is no big problem. Frank wants to thread jack me and he figured that since I called him on it, he needed to pull out the big guns of sophistry. It was either that or a Hitler/Nazi allusion. :icon_viking:


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

tabasco said:


> Oh fer pete's sake Frank, Wayfarer wasn't being racist. Come on.
> M


Sure it is. Note the absence of a "people are people", or "race isn't relevant" (or anything to that effect) in Wayfarer's poll choices. Ask yourself what the purpose of this poll might be.


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## Gradstudent78 (May 7, 2003)

You left an option out. Some good, some bad, depends on the guy (not overall good or overall bad).


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Sure it is. Note the absence of a "people are people", or "race isn't relevant" (or anything to that effect) in Wayfarer's poll choices. Ask yourself what the purpose of this poll might be.


Ahhh, the good old conclusion by absence. So tell me, is a symposium on the contributions of women sexist unless they have a session on "people are people"?

Jack away Francis 

Oh Frank, is your wife the same race you are? If so, you just might be "racist" under your definition!


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

THANK YOU.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Gradstudent78 said:


> You left an option out. Some good, some bad, depends on the guy (not overall good or overall bad).


I left out literally millions of options. Sorry, just a quick poll, not a focus group validated survey tool for quantitative analysis


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Sure it is. Note the absence of a "people are people", or "race isn't relevant" (or anything to that effect) in Wayfarer's poll choices. Ask yourself what the purpose of this poll might be.


I have a pretty good idea why Wayfarer created the poll. I think it had to do with a comment I made about white males, history, and karma (after acknowledging I am one).

I also think the poll (or ANY poll) can be constructed as specifically as this one, without being racist in construct. I think the answers to the poll reveal additudes about racism. In other words, just because Wayfarer asks us if white males are racist, doesn't make HIM a racist.

and no, only some of us are  ;

and we white guys have no monopoly on racism.

M


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> I left out literally millions of options.


Just conincidentally, all of the fair and rational ones.


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## Gradstudent78 (May 7, 2003)

Wayfarer said:


> I left out literally millions of options. Sorry, just a quick poll, not a focus group validated survey tool for quantitative analysis


Well there are a million things you could have put on there, but a good, bad, neutral scale is pretty standard. As its set up you basically just have good or bad in differing degrees.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Proud to be a white American male of Irish descent.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

tabasco said:


> I'm happy and proud to be a rich white American male. I hope my children and grandchildren get to be rich white American males (and females). And no, I don't believe in reparations. But I do believe in *karma*.
> 
> M


Ayyyyaaaaghhhh. Another thing you have stolen from us persons of color!!

:icon_smile_wink:


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Proud to be a white Jewish male who works part Time,and I'm proud of it!


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

I refused to racially identify myself in my last hiring process. I actually found the federal guidelines on it: they said the manager is to make a classification based on appearance. About 10 mins after I found that and shared it with my manager, HR called and told him to do that.

On the census I put mixed race, as an Irish-Scotch-Polish-German.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

radix023 said:


> I refused to racially identify myself in my last hiring process. I actually found the federal guidelines on it: they said the manager is to make a classification based on appearance. About 10 mins after I found that and shared it with my manager, HR called and told him to do that.
> 
> On the census I put mixed race, as an Irish-Scotch-Polish-German.


I refuse to answer these questions on any government or other type of form (it held me up for some time when doing the "instant background check" when I was buying a shotgun). If "other" is an option for race/ethnicity, I always choose it without further explanation. I am of northern European ancestry (English, Scottish, and a dash of German) but I resent being asked that information by the government and frankly, don't think the government has any need to know my ethnic background - what are they going to do with the information - discriminate against me?

I'm sick and tired of seemingly everything coming down to an issue of race/racism in the U.S. - it's so tiresome. Maybe, as a start, if the government quit asking, we could stop categorizing people and simply deal with individuals as we meet them.


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

Rocker said:


> ....it's so tiresome. Maybe, as a start, if the government quit asking, we could stop categorizing people and simply deal with individuals as we meet them.


+1

Michael


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Ask yourself what the purpose of this poll might be.


See the OP maybe Francis? Too easy. Tabasco even pointed it out for you (thanks T).

So, is your wife the same race as you are? You have yet to answer and I think it is because you will fit into your own definition of "racism" you have expounded here. Shame that.

Some very sensible posts here guys. Thanks for taking part.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

I a GWPM (gay white professional male). One thing about coming out was for me to acknowledge to myself that I am a good and worthy person. It took a while but I fully accept and am proud who I am. Interesting when I mention this same feeling to many of my 'liberal' friends - about being a white male, they get all guilt-angst-self-doubting on me. Why? Why should I not be proud of who I am. I don't strive to be better than anyone, only the best I can be. I don't think anyone should be ashamed of who they are (what they do is a different matter). I decided many years to stop apologizing for being gay, I see not reason to apologize for being white, male, or American either.
Rant over.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm white, male and far too busy causing all the world's problems to have time for a more reasoned response.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

mpcsb said:


> I a GWPM (gay white professional male). One thing about coming out was for me to acknowledge to myself that I am a good and worthy person. It took a while but I fully accept and am proud who I am. Interesting when I mention this same feeling to many of my 'liberal' friends - about being a white male, they get all guilt-angst-self-doubting on me. Why? Why should I not be proud of who I am. I don't strive to be better than anyone, only the best I can be. I don't think anyone should be ashamed of who they are (what they do is a different matter). I decided many years to stop apologizing for being gay, I see not reason to apologize for being white, male, or American either.
> Rant over.


Well put! GUPies and DINKs unite


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I'm white, male and far too busy causing all the world's problems to have time for a more reasoned response.


Oh now _there's_ a guilty post if ever saw one - :icon_smile_wink:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Got to wondering....*

mpcsb:

Got to wondering, why do you think your white male liberal friends feel such anguish over being white and male? This goes to the OP of this poll.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> mpcsb:
> 
> Got to wondering, why do you think your white male liberal friends feel such anguish over being white and male? This goes to the OP of this poll.


It's not PC. White men are responsible for all the bad in the world - jeeze - you gotta keep up - :icon_smile_wink:


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I know. It's quite a task to keep up with.

I still have a sore back from the work setting up last year's tsunami.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I know. It's quite a task to keep up with.
> 
> I still have a sore back from the work setting up last year's tsunami.


You did that.....I'm impressed - :aportnoy:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I know. It's quite a task to keep up with.
> 
> I still have a sore back from the work setting up last year's tsunami.


I thought that was from Tony Soprano doing a belly flop :icon_smile_big:


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Yeah, but I don't know if I'll bother with it again. I really didn't get much credit for it after all the work (and back pain!)


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I think I'm a WASPAH...white, anglo-saxon, protestant, a**hole...and, ashamed to say, proud of it...although, I do have as many gay and minority friends as I have straight and white friends and associates. My son-in-law, who is Hispanic, reminds me if I give him a few years, I'm going to be in one of the minorities and, even though I'm a Presbyterian, I attend the Catholic church, because that is where the kids and grandkids go...and Church is meant to be a "family activity!" Geesh, it sounds like I'm conflicted...perhaps FUBAR? (winks)


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> Geesh, it sounds like I'm conflicted...perhaps FUBAR? (winks)


Just stay away from the 'FUBU' and you'll be alright - :icon_smile_wink:


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I know. It's quite a task to keep up with.
> 
> I still have a sore back from the work setting up last year's tsunami.


I realize you guys are joking but there are people out there who tried to say that it was caused by oil exploration disrupting the earth's mantle. Truth *is* stranger than fiction.

It's beginning to look like Warhol's "15 minutes of fame" is going to become "every conspiracy theory will have its own website".


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

*moving target*



Laxplayer said:


> Proud to be a white American male of Irish descent.


You might be surprised to discover that there was a time in America where your statement would have been a nonsense.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

I think a good question would be, who identifies themselves as White first, over nationality and culture.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> I think a good question would be, who identifies themselves as White first, over nationality and culture.


Or any race for that matter as the primary identifier. You make a good point jpeir.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

eg1 said:


> You might be surprised to discover that there was a time in America where your statement would have been a nonsense.


+1

Where I grew up in New England, Germans were the first immigrants to hear, "Well, there goes the neighborhood."

Then the Germans said the same thing when Irish immigrants arrived.

Then the Irish said the same thing when Italian immigrants arrived.

Then the Italians said the same thing when Black Americans arrived.

Every group plays the same pathetic game.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> Just conincidentally, all of the fair and rational ones.


My humble suggestion would be for you to start your own poll in which you have total control over which options are allowed.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

I'm only half white...but luckily I was raised by that half...

Truth be told...it's very unfortunate but, white people have, in this day and age, been painted into a corner in the sence that a white person can't publicly acknowledge his pride in being white (very different than white pride), without being labled a cross burning, red neck, noose toting racist ****** mutha... so now, we have to accept everybody's cultures and customs and not disaprove of people from other countries who refuse to assimilate by speaking English, or joining the stream of those who go to work every day or whatever, because if we do, we are labled as racist...

I can understand racism...I was sent to elementary school (by my white family) in a very nice area, where probably 99% of the students were of WASPy descent...being literally the only kid in your class with brown eyes, or curly hair or whatever, kind of made things difficult for me sometimes (but then when you get older and all the WASPY girls take interest in the guy who's a little different...it works out well...plus I learned to fight at a fairly young age...)but at the same time...I doubt the crap I had to deal with would have been anywhere near as bad as a little blonde haired blue eyed carachter going off to a public school in the ghetto somewhere...

Now it seems that white people who at one time may have been considered the most racist, have to appear to be the least racist...and there's nothing wrong with that...but my question is...If I ran around in public shouting from the rooftops how proud I am to be Cuban, nobody would pay it any mind...but why then would it be considered wrong of me to do the same thing, only declare my (justified) pride in my European heritage???

Any way...the point is (and I probably could have jsut said this and spared you all of my above rambling)...There is a double standard in full effect in this country...


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> I'm only half white...but luckily I was raised by that half...
> 
> Truth be told...it's very unfortunate but, white people have, in this day and age, been painted into a corner in the sence that a white person can't publicly acknowledge his pride in being white (very different than white pride), without being labled a cross burning, red neck, noose toting racist ****** mutha... so now, we have to accept everybody's cultures and customs and not disaprove of people from other countries who refuse to assimilate by speaking English, or joining the stream of those who go to work every day or whatever, because if we do, we are labled as racist...
> 
> ...


Well I think we covered the double standard enough so I'll leave that alone, as I don't believe it exists.
In America only White pride has ever equaled superiority in law & action , in a widespread sense. So I think people react more negatively towards "White pride' because its scarier. If someone hears a Black say their proud to be so, no one worries that we think we are superior or will eventually enact laws where we'd deny White people civil/ human rights. That's my take on it on why people react negatively.
My personal view is people should be proud of what they are or whatever they identify as, whether its race, culture or ethnicity. Self hate isn't option under any circumstance, in my opinion.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Now it seems that white people who at one time may have been considered the most racist, have to appear to be the least racist...and there's nothing wrong with that...but my question is...If I ran around in public shouting from the rooftops how proud I am to be Cuban, nobody would pay it any mind...but why then would it be considered wrong of me to do the same thing, only declare my (justified) pride in my European heritage???


The primary mistake is using the terms "white" and "European" interchangeably, the same way "black" is used interchangeably with "African". One term doesn't equal the other in either case, and never has.

If you want to shout from a rooftop about your pride in a French heritage, or Russian heritage, or German, Italian etc people will know what the hell you're talking about. The second you use the word "white" your audience's eyes will glaze over -- not because of reverse racism but simply because the term doesn't mean anything.

A double standard still exists in this country (e.g. the "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People", as if some people exist who aren't "colored"). But these are largely artifacts of the last two centuries and appalling mistreatment in the past of certain minority groups.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I'm white, male and far too busy causing all the world's problems to have time for a more reasoned response.


Why would you be thinking that?


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I look in the mirror and I see the color of my skin, and I know that it has nothing to do with my efforts, or who I am. I cannot imagine why I would be proud of it.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> Ask yourself what the purpose of this poll might be.


I'm still scratching my head about that one.

MrR


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

The Gabba Goul said:


> If I ran around in public shouting from the rooftops how proud I am to be Cuban, nobody would pay it any mind...but why then would it be considered wrong of me to do the same thing, only declare my (justified) pride in my European heritage???


Even in some academic situations, you can barely show your appreciation of European accomplishments in the face of any other.

I more impressed with countless castles and cathedrals in Europe than the Great Zimbabwe in Africa (or anything in Cuba....sorry). However it's not _cool_ to appreciate overblown medival and renaissance buildings because they were built by oppresive white Europeans.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> I've never seen a white man. So far they've all been a pinkish/brownish color.


And everybody is pink on the inside. But there are some bone and gristle in there as well.

I fear my lungs look a little grey.


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