# OCBDs—do you iron them or not?



## lorkp (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm deciding whether I like the slightly rougher look or if I like it ironed. I figure that this shirt is slightly less formal and it's' appropriate if it's not "perfect". What is your opinion?


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

Never...

TT:teacha:


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Are you kidding TT? Always. Only a bum doesn't iron his shirts.


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## GWhite (Aug 25, 2007)

Except for second-tier, weekend around the house- type shirts, always ironed.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

I hang them up right out of the dryer and they are fine by me. I like the more 'human' look.

Danny


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Wearing without a jacket - no
Wearing with a blazer/sport coat - maybe
Wearing with a suit - yes


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

All of my shirts are laundered at the dry cleaner. Any shirt to be worn with a tie (no matter the collar or cuff style) gets pressed with light starch.

It's the way I like it.

JB


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## zignatius (Oct 8, 2004)

crazyquik said:


> Wearing without a jacket - no
> Wearing with a blazer/sport coat - maybe
> Wearing with a suit - yes


my m.o. as well.


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

I'm neurotic and iron all of my clothes (yes, even underwear on occasion).


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> Wearing without a jacket - no
> Wearing with a blazer/sport coat - maybe
> Wearing with a suit - yes


Ditto.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

I hang mine right out of the washer. I do my best to pull them out of the washer and get them on hangers just as soon as the washing machine is done doing its business. I might touch-up if there is a particularly bad wrinkle, but otherwise they come out pretty unwrinkled after hanging. 

Besides, any wrinkledness that might still be around can be justified by the fact that the shirt is going to wrinkle once I wear it anyways.

Regarding the OP, I think most of us prefer the word "rumpled" over "rougher." Conveys a better sense of "crotchety old manness" to me.


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## CactusMark (Feb 14, 2007)

For me it depends on the shirt, unless I'm wearing a suit in which case ironing is something that I try to do. Some shirts that I have, all non-non iron OCBDS, are identical in every way except for color and I find that some of them need ironing and others do not. This has been the case with both LE and BB OCBDs that I've had.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Always.


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> Are you kidding TT? Always. Only a bum doesn't iron his shirts.


Thank you very little...

TT:teacha:


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Joe Tradly said:


> All of my shirts are laundered at the dry cleaner. Any shirt to be worn with a tie (no matter the collar or cuff style) gets pressed with light starch.
> JB


I launder any shirt appropriate for wearing with a tie, whether the tie is actually worn or not. I don't know of any professional my age who doesn't wear laundered shirts. (i.e. a lawyer, physician, mid-level or above corporate type, etc) I can't imagine being in a business setting in an unironed shirt.

Scott


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Count me in as having all my shirts laundered at the dry cleaners.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

I pay to have mine ironed, but you wouldn't know to look at them.


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## BeauJest (May 19, 2007)

All Ironed, All the time.


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

I recently purchased a Whirlpool drying center, with a steamed drying cabinet. It works pretty well on OCBD's, they come out about 80% of what ironing could accomplish. If I feel they need it, a quick run down the sleeves and collar and they are perfect. The handful of non-iron shirts come out perfectly.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

I'm one of those that has to iron mine as well.

Brian


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

My helper is instructed to 
1) Always hang dry and iron Jantzen & BB
2) Just hang dry LE & Press


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

Always.


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

I either iron them myself or take them to the cleaners.

CB


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I hope our esteemed Mr. Kabbaz doesn't see all you starch users! 

I won't even put mine in the dryer. Hang dry and steam iron.

"Do not use bleach! Do not use starch! Do not use fabric softeners!"


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## Prepdad (Mar 10, 2005)

Starched to hell and back at the dry cleaners. Shirts and wine are not investments. They're meant to be consumed. Eventually.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

ksinc said:


> I hope our esteemed Mr. Kabbaz doesn't see all you starch users!
> 
> I won't even put mine in the dryer. Hang dry and steam iron.
> 
> "Do not use bleach! Do not use starch! Do not use fabric softeners!"


For sure! No starch! I have seen the light and I will never go back.

If I am wearing a suit I'll wear a pressed shirt, but 8 times out of 10 I am wearing an OCBD in a casual or semi casual setting so I do not iron it. That said, I am not a 'professional', I work at home, so clearly my case is not applicable to all.


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## jeph (Feb 16, 2006)

Never. I would iron a poplin shirt, but never an OCBD.

Jeph


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

I always iron all of my clothes, even jeans. Well, I don't iron my underwear like Connemara does. You really iron your underwear? Seriously? 
I guess I could see ironing an undershirt if it was wrinkled badly, but not boxers or briefs.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

I do keep one that is ironed in case I need to go to a funeral or wedding or audit or something. Other than that, no, never iron.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> Wearing without a jacket - no
> Wearing with a blazer/sport coat - maybe
> Wearing with a suit - yes


Me too.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

I generally launder my OCBDs myself and put in the dryer for 5 minutes then on hanger. I touch up with an iron.

All other shirts go the to cleaners to be laundered and pressed with no starch.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Naval Gent said:


> I launder any shirt appropriate for wearing with a tie, whether the tie is actually worn or not. I don't know of any professional my age who doesn't wear laundered shirts. (i.e. a lawyer, physician, mid-level or above corporate type, etc) I can't imagine being in a business setting in an unironed shirt.
> 
> Scott


Exactly. I had given up on looking at the "do you iron" threads because everyone always claimed they did not. If you are in school, or work in an ultra casual environment and can get away with a wrinkled shirt, then I am jealous.

But in the regular professional world (accounting, law, banking, consulting), I have never seen anyone wear an un-pressed shirt. In fact, I have worked at firms that might even send you home to change


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

I'm a never iron man. If I even have to dust off the suit (figuratively of course, it's covered to keep clean) then I'll pull out a normal point collar as the situation will be sufficiently formal to warrant it. In my normal casual life I never iron anything.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> Are you kidding TT? Always. Only a bum doesn't iron his shirts.


Medium starch from the laundry for work, nights out, and other times I want to look well-put-together, _i.e.,_ non-bum.

Folded out of my dryer for regular wear on weekends and other days off - definitely bum.

Church wear is by whim. Sometimes ironed and starched, sometimes not. Assume bum (at least until Confession of Sin).

Some shirts need commercial laundry much more than others. My Brooks OCBDs, with a little care, can look great out of the home dryer. My Lands End OCBDs are a bit more. . . problematic in this regard. (But recall that LEs cost _a lot_ less than Brooks.) So I end up sending all my LEs to the laundry.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Put another way - Guys on this forum seem to really appreciate a good shoe shine. I think of crisp shirts in the same category, along with a neat (not necessarily short) haircut.

Moreover if your boss wears laundered shirts, you better believe he will notice whether or not you do. In my college days laundered shirts were considered a primary discriminator between "Gentlemen" and "Rustics" (to use two G-rated top-of-the-head descriptions). I do realize that this prejudice is probably specious and unfair, but it's likely a lot of guys my age (mid-40s and above) still hold it. Of course, discount for your own Region / Profession / Generation, but that's my world view. 

I don't mean to disparage you wash and wear guys - just something to consider.

Scott


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

If I am beating around the house it is usually unironed. Whenever I go to work, it is ironed. I don't want to look like slouch. Just feels right to look sharp.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> Wearing without a jacket - no
> Wearing with a blazer/sport coat - maybe
> Wearing with a suit - yes


Excellent distillation.

I would just add that my few remaining LE OCBDs always get prof. laundered and light starch. The just look too rumply/sloppy to me after being home washed and line dried.

My BBs (I think due to the slightly heavier fabric) look just rumply enough being line dried, but I do prof. launder and light starch a couple for jacket and tie use.

For suits, I must confess, I have the BB slim fit non-irons (BB slim fit pinpoints are not available in must iron), and they look perfect even after home wash and line dry.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

I iron my OCBDs myself with no starch. If I needed a crisper look, I would buy more pinpoints to send out for starch and pressing. I think plain old oxford cloth is too thick for comfort with starch and industrial pressing.


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

Okay, I don't mean say never, ever...but, it's probably 90%/10%. I just like the cold wash/hang dry/put on and wear method...

TT:teacha:


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Naval Gent said:


> Put another way - Guys on this forum seem to really appreciate a good shoe shine. I think of crisp shirts in the same category, along with a neat (not necessarily short) haircut.
> 
> Moreover if your boss wears laundered shirts, you better believe he will notice whether or not you do. In my college days laundered shirts were considered a primary discriminator between "Gentlemen" and "Rustics" (to use two G-rated top-of-the-head descriptions). I do realize that this prejudice is probably specious and unfair, but it's likely a lot of guys my age (mid-40s and above) still hold it. Of course, discount for your own Region / Profession / Generation, but that's my world view.
> 
> ...


Well said. I'm younger than you, and we never used the terms gentlemen and rustics, but I noticied similar distinctions in college and more importantly high school--which had a moderately strict dress code. When I was on the parents's dollar all my shirts were laundered with light starch, but now that I am on my own I wash and iron ny own shirts. Also, it seems wise not to be better dressed than one's boss. It already irks her that I look, and more importantly am treated, as if I am older than her, although I am 15 years her junior. I starched shirt would be too much, as much as I like the look.


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## Plainsman (Jun 29, 2006)

Did we not have a discussion one time that having all clothes pressed and/or dry cleaned seems to be more dominant in the South? Not that there's anything wrong with the more wrinkled look. 

I get all of my trousers and button downs laundered and pressed. I like a "crisper" look.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

I am a slug when it comes to an iron, so I always send mine out to be laundered (light starch). I can usually get a couple wearings out of a shirt...especially easy in the fall/winter/early spring because I'll throw it under a sweater. I have some older shirts I never iron...and usually only wear on the weekends.

My wife tends to iron her clothing more, but since we bought a commercial-grade steamer and put it in our laundry room, the iron rarely sees the light of day (I hear it's better for clothes, too).


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## Tucker (Apr 17, 2006)

Plainsman said:


> Did we not have a discussion one time that having all clothes pressed and/or dry cleaned seems to be more dominant in the South? Not that there's anything wrong with the more wrinkled look.
> 
> I get all of my trousers and button downs laundered and pressed. I like a "crisper" look.


+1

A fraternity brother from south Georgia once tried to starch his own madras shirts by dipping them in a starch solution and then hanging them to dry. He claimed that this was the manner in which his household help starched his grandfather's dress shirts. After they dried the shirts were so stiff they might have cut his throat if he'd attempted to wear one. He kept one propped up in the corner of his room for most of a semester and used it as a bulletin board.

My South = Starched / Pressed


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

When I was in the service back in the 60's I noticed that after a few washings and heavy ironings my cotton uniforms started coming out of the dryer less and less wrinkled. My Land's End OCBD's are the same way. I don't know if the ironing had anything to do with it or not.


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## LonelyAreTheBrave (Dec 2, 2006)

I always launder and press all of my dress shirts...even my sport shirts.


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

*ironed/laundered ocbd*

It has been years since I regularly had ocbd laundered ocbd shirts, I just shake and hang dry my(should be must iron B2 shirts) cheap trad I guess.
I do think tennis collar and poplin /broadcloth - almost require ironing.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

All shirts sent to the local laundry and ironed with light starch.


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## Nathan Detroit (Oct 12, 2005)

I wash them in cold water, hang them up, pull the wrinkles out of them on the hanger, and wear them. They look fine...


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

Joe Tradly said:


> All of my shirts are laundered at the dry cleaner. Any shirt to be worn with a tie (no matter the collar or cuff style) gets pressed with light starch.
> 
> It's the way I like it.
> 
> JB


Light starch for work and dress-up, me too. It is a nice casual look if un-ironed, though. Perhaps with jeans and the in-transit Lucchese boots? Bill


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

Never. I'm not sure which I like better, but since I can't decide, I'll go with the one that's less work. Fortunately, slightly rumpled shirts go well with tweed coats, which I wear for most of the year. A dark business suit is overkill in my profession, so when I do occasionally opt for such attire, a rumpled shirt helps me to dress it down.

I wear a pressed shirt 5-6 times/year on only the most formal occasions. Usually black tie.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

BeauJest said:


> All Ironed, All the time.


 ...the words, taken right from my mouth!


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## Frank aka The Minotaur (Nov 12, 2004)

Joe Tradly said:


> All of my shirts are laundered at the dry cleaner. Any shirt to be worn with a tie (no matter the collar or cuff style) gets pressed with light starch.
> 
> It's the way I like it.
> 
> JB


Ditto, with one further exception... since I don't wear ties but maybe once or twice a year, I have all my buttondown shirts (bd collar or point collar) starched and pressed anyway. I like the flatness and non-puckering of the cuffs, collar and front placket when the shirt is professionally done.

Since I have an altogether too-large collection of shirts, I don't worry about them being starched and worn out... It takes me at least a month or two to go the full rotation.


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

*The care and feeding of the North American OCBD*

Please---Commercially laundered with extra-heavy starch!

The same treatment I gave my Army shade 107 green fatigues several lifetimes ago.

Have a great week.

hbs


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

I wash and dry mine, then steam the wrinkles out of the body and iron the collar cuffs and placket. That way, I keep the "roughness" in the body of the shirt, set off against the dressiness of the more visible areas of the shirt.


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## Southern Comfort (Jul 25, 2007)

For those of you who wash your OCBDs in the washer, do you not find that they wear quicker and the collars become faded? I take my nicer OCBDs to the cleaners (although who knows what they do with it!), after a couple of bad experiences in the washer...


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

It depends.

Most of my shirts are no-iron. To my wife's consternation I just ordered about five Lands' End OCBD's that I got in 100% cotton, iron only, because the cotton ones were only $12.50. I do iron them (right out of the washer), or at least the cuffs and the front.


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

I turn the collars and cuffs in and I wash them on cold/gentle. They go about 80 washes without showing any real wear.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Commercially laundered with light starch.


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## Thomas (Jan 30, 2006)

It depends on I bring my clothes home for my mom to wash. If so, she always irons them after washing. When I'm at school and have to wash my own clothes, I just hang them up out of the dryer and wear them.


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## browning806 (Sep 4, 2007)

So is it generally agreed upon that the dryer is a no-no?

I sometimes have issues with the collars holding up, specifically the alignment on the back.


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## Pangster00 (Sep 15, 2008)

What's ocbd mean?


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

Oxford Cloth Button Down [shirt]


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Light wash, hang dry, press with no starch. I may try Kabbaz's method for cleaning shirts sometime.


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## jeph (Feb 16, 2006)

I never iron my OCBD shirts. 

Jeph


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## stfu (Apr 30, 2008)

Either direct from the washer to hang dry, OR a couple minutes in the drier then to hang dry. If it looks a bit too wrinkled, I will iron it directly before wearing.


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

Procedure hasn't changed since my last posting on this subject, 10/01/07, _supra...:icon_smile_big:_

hbs


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

Hmmm. My procedure has not yet been endorsed by anyone. I iron the shirt without starch, except for the collar. Then I iron the collar with light to medium starch. IMO, an OCBD is all about the collar and it needs a little bit of crispness.

Am I the only one who does it this way?


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## randomdude (Jun 4, 2007)

I never iron them. It's just wrong!


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*I never iron them. I pay others to do this for me.*

I understand the "just pull out of the dryer and hang" look. But when I see this I think it looks exactly like someone just pulled their shirt out of the dryer and put it on. Appropriate for working in the yard or cleaning out the basement, but not for work.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Wash cold, hang dry, then iron quickly. No starch.


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## CM Wolff (Jun 7, 2006)

I always thought my wife took care of my shirts through the 'wash and hang' approach, but recently she mentioned she sprays a wrinkle releaser on them. See the link below (although I don't know if this is the specific brand she uses, there apparently are many on the market). I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but I will say that my shirts have looked great and I personally have not noticed any ill-effects.

https://www.downy.com/en_US/products/wrinklereleaser.jsp


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

I have begun ironing my BB OCBDs after hanging them dry. (I assume that in this older thread I previously advised that I do not iron BB OCBDs because the heavier weight of the fabric pulls the wrinkles out pretty nicely while they hang dry). I have come to want a bit more smoothness in the shirt and collar. I don't use starch and it makes for a nicer appearance, since I basically treat them as dress shirts for all but suits.

I definately iron any other must-iron shirt or sport shirt. I generally wait until I have 4 shirts to iron and then get it out to make the time involved in set-up and take down worth while. I put on the TV in the kitchen and watch the game and have a beer whilst I work.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

^ Same here. Four shirts and a pair or two of Bills take me about 20 minutes.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

I have my domestic helper hang dry and iron. They appear in my closet at random. Some seem to show up 24 hours after I wear them. Others appear on a bi-annual basis.


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## RTW (Jan 7, 2006)

I wear my BB OCBD shirts (original, not not-iron) casually with Bills Sport Utility Twill trousers most of the time. The shirts are not usually paired with a sportcoat and/or tie. 
I never iron the BB OCBD shirts. I wash them in warm water, dry them using low heat for 10 - 15 minutes, give 'em a good shake, and then hang to dry.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

Joe Beamish said:


> ^ Same here. Four shirts and a pair or two of Bills take me about 20 minutes.


Joe,

I do not iron my Bills, because when I iron, I get those friction lines on the legs where the seam underneath gets pressed onto the top fabric. How do you avoid that?

PC


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## chadn2000 (Aug 4, 2006)

I just hang my OCBDs right out of the dryer. All the wrinkles fall right out this way, although ironing it I guess would make it look a tad bit crisper. If you've got a jacket on over it though, and nobody can tell whether it's ironed or just dried, why would you iron a shirt that's going to wrinkle within a half hour of having it on?


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## JayJay (Oct 8, 2007)

jeph said:


> I never iron my OCBD shirts.
> 
> Jeph


Same here. I wash and wear.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

I understand. But I don't really iron the seams. I fold 'em for a flat front job (no crease in the front) and only iron the broard open areas between the seams on the front and back. Real fast, not very serious, plenty of steam. Just enough ironing to spiff 'em up.



paper clip said:


> Joe,
> 
> I do not iron my Bills, because when I iron, I get those friction lines on the legs where the seam underneath gets pressed onto the top fabric. How do you avoid that?
> 
> PC


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

cenelson43 said:


> I just hang my OCBDs right out of the dryer. All the wrinkles fall right out this way, although ironing it I guess would make it look a tad bit crisper. *If you've got a jacket on over it though, and nobody can tell whether it's ironed or just dried, why would you iron a shirt that's going to wrinkle within a half hour of having it on?*


If you can't tell the difference then it's a poor ironing job. Take a couple of your shirts to the cleaner's, ask for light to medium starch, and then report back on the difference.

Really, I try always to demonstrate a tolerant and open-minded attitude on this forum, but one of the well-dressed man's fundamental rites of passage into adulthood has long been taking his shirts to the cleaner's. I recognize that we are not all of the same means, but anyone who can afford to spend as significant a share of their budget on clothing as the members of this forum do should be able to afford to get their shirts ironed.

What's puzzling is the widespread preference here for the wrinkled shirt over the cleaned and pressed shirt, not as a matter of means but as an aesthetic preference. One would have thought that here, of all places, there would be a bias toward neatness, tidiness, and the old ways.

I am old, I am old / I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled...

TJS


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

^ Send my beautiful, beloved, hard earned shirts to the cleaners to be mistreated, aged, and shrunk? NO thanks. I take much better care of them.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

randomdude said:


> I never iron them. It's just wrong!


No, you simply have different preferences.


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## wolfhound986 (Jun 30, 2007)

I would either iron the OCBD myself or have it sent out, no starch. Pressed but not stiff.

I don't see how you could not notice wrinkles on an all cotton OCBD if you just wash and wear, the shirt placket would be noticably wrinkled - I'd be compelled to iron it.


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

wolfhound986 said:


> I would either iron the OCBD myself or have it sent out, no starch. Pressed but not stiff.
> 
> I don't see how you could not notice wrinkles on an all cotton OCBD if you just wash and wear, *the shirt placket would be noticably wrinkled* *- I'd* *be compelled to iron it.*


Yeah--that area is at least as noticeable as the collar; really stands out with either bowtie or tieless.

In a previous life, mrs hbs made starch and did my shirt laundry so I would have a week's worth of shirts in Chicago, where I was a student at Roosevelt University. The agreement was that I would start sending them out when I landed employment as a result of my studies.

I have been having them done (extra-heavy starch) for over 26 years.:icon_smile_big:

Can't quite comprehend the fixation on the unironed look, but hey, as long as I don't have to wear it, it's all good.

Enjoy Wednesday!

hbs


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Jovan said:


> No, you simply have different preferences.


I don't think he was mandating anything. A little exggeration, if you will.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Here in Los Angeles, upper management and upper-upper management executives used to wear their OCBDs very heavily starched. It assuaged them that the shirt was not _too_ informal for business.

.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

Joe Beamish said:


> I understand. But I don't really iron the seams. I fold 'em for a flat front job (no crease in the front) and only iron the broard open areas between the seams on the front and back. Real fast, not very serious, plenty of steam. Just enough ironing to spiff 'em up.


I get it. Thanks! My other pants ironing issue is up at the top - the waist and pocket area - I can never get that right, and it is another source of press lines. It seems that you skip that issue all together.

About 2 x a year, I break down and send the pants to the cleaners for a launder and wet press.


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## Halifax (Jun 14, 2007)

I have one OCBD that doesn't get ironed after the wash or when I can afford it a trip to the cleaners. I use it as my weekend wear with the polos. Other then that I like to have my remaining OCBD ironed as to me it just feels and looks better.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Arnold Gingrich fan said:


> Here in Los Angeles, upper management and upper-upper management executives used to wear their OCBDs very heavily starched. It assuaged them that the shirt was not _too_ informal for business.
> 
> .


That's the way we wore them here in NW suburban Chicago too. Then when the collars and cuffs began to fray (after years of service) they'd be relegated to weekend wear unironed, usually under a crewneck sweater.


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## Arnold Gingrich fan (Aug 8, 2008)

Brooksfan said:


> That's the way we wore them here in NW suburban Chicago too. Then when the collars and cuffs began to fray (after years of service) they'd be relegated to weekend wear unironed, usually under a crewneck sweater.


Just so. Who knew that L.A. and Chicago had something in common? :icon_smile_wink:

.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

^ Add Philadelphia and NY too. In fact the experience is more universal than you'd imagine; I think the non-iron non-starch thing is a factor of youth and perhaps generational difference.


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