# Women have a vastly different idea of what looks good on a man.



## poorboy (Feb 23, 2012)

I purchased a pair of Allen Edmonds Malverns in suede and find them really comfortable. I show my lady friend, who is in her early 30's and is a good dresser herself, and she has a lukewarm reaction to them and then points to another pair of boots that she said looked a lot better to her because they were more masculine.

I mentioned to her that James Bond wore a pair of chukkas in Quantum of Solace, so they are fairly fashionable, but she still liked the black boots.


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## conductor (Mar 1, 2010)

Ugh. Combat boots vs. chukkas......I'm a little surprised by your lady friend's recommendation. Unfortunately vast portions of the populace have very low or misguided standards regarding style. Keep wearing them and maybe she'll come around....or not.


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## CdnTrad (May 27, 2012)

Colour me surprised with her choice as well. Those Malverns are beauties.


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## lalaland (Apr 10, 2012)

What is there to be surprised about, and what conclusions can be drawn from one data point?

They're apples and oranges - both combat boots and your AE's can look good in different contexts. They each send a totally different message.

This is like putting up pictures of a Jackson Pollock next to a Renoir and trying to compare them, or Dante vs Joyce.

They're false comparisons.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

There is masculine and there is masculine, as you subtly pointed out. Well polished boots under a sharp looking uniform, properly adorned in a chest full of ribbons definitely reeks testosterone but tell me that Marcello Mastrioni didn't do just as well in his Neapolitan flannels? I'm sorry, but just ignore her complaints. Either she'll come around or she isn't worth keeping.


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Sirs, Gentle persons all,
Let us please not demean the taste of a lady we do not know, nor say that what she may feel is appropriate is wrong. No doubt she has her reasons, which are not for us to judge. It's always ladies choice, gentlemen, and please do not forget this. It is essential.
As to footwear, one has options. Have had boots like those and chukkas both in my racks of available options. It is not a question of either or. It is a question of whether one chooses to have the lady or have...what? Boots? Please.
Have both if you wish.
It is my own preference to cleave to my beloved over any other person, thing, objective, or what have you. You may do otherwise at your pleasure.
Damn, what's so hard? Wear what you want when you want and please your lady when and how she should allow. Grow up, children. A good woman is better than any material thing; she is your life and prosperity.
Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law,
rudy


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## AndrisenMortonMan (May 31, 2012)

RM Bantista said:


> Sirs, Gentle persons all,
> Let us please not demean the taste of a lady we do not know, nor say that what she may feel is appropriate is wrong. No doubt she has her reasons, which are not for us to judge. It's always ladies choice, gentlemen, and please do not forget this. It is essential.
> As to footwear, one has options. Have had boots like those and chukkas both in my racks of available options. It is not a question of either or. It is a question of whether one chooses to have the lady or have...what? Boots? Please.
> Have both if you wish.
> ...


Just out of curiosity, are you a eunuch?

*Edit: No. He is a Member. Something you once were and now are not. *


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## g3dahl (Aug 26, 2011)

^^^Hey! That was...um...hitting below the belt.

Rudy, as always, I greatly appreciate the wisdom you so eloquently share.


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## lbv2k (Feb 16, 2010)

AndrisenMortonMan said:


> Just out of curiosity, are you a eunuch?


Really? Is this really neccessary?


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

May I remind that this is a discussion of _gentlemen's _clothing and we ought to be acting like gentlemen? Now, back to those shoes.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

g3dahl said:


> Rudy, as always, I greatly appreciate the wisdom you so eloquently share.


+1

:thumbs-up:


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## IvanD (Jan 5, 2012)

Oldsarge said:


> May I remind that this is a discussion of _gentlemen's _clothing and we ought to be acting like gentlemen? Now, back to those shoes.


Well said sir.
Whilst we all have opinions and some of the threads can get a little heated, ALL arguments and opinions can be put forward without resorting to insulting one another.

Love those Malverns by the way :icon_smile:


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

[QUOTE

*Edit: No. He is a Member. Something you once were and now are not. *[/QUOTE]

@ A. Kabbaz: Well put, sir!


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## db601 (Oct 3, 2008)

"Shunning" is under appreciated as a social regulatory scheme in the modern era. Thank you for invoking it in this instance.

With regard to the boots, could your lady friend have been making a subtle comment about a preference regarding men and their interest or lack thereof in their own habiliment? I'm only hazarding a guess from personal experience of wearing same on construction sites years ago. I took them off as quick as I could after work and never thought of them as a wardrobe article. If some do regard them as such, what would one pair them with?


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Levi's or Carhart's, to begin with. Either a plaid flannel or chambray shirt, no tie, obviously. Woolrich or Filson shirtjac in cool weather or cruiser in cold. Western or trooper hat, possibly. NO DAMNED BALL CAP!


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Oldsarge said:


> Levi's or Carhart's, to begin with. Either a plaid flannel or chambray shirt, no tie, obviously. Woolrich or Filson shirtjac in cool weather or cruiser in cold. Western or trooper hat, possibly. NO DAMNED BALL CAP!


You mean I can't wear them with my camo pants, camo jacket, black turtleneck, and camo ball cap? Carrying my pistol grip camo Mossberg while driving my camo Jeep? C'mon Sarge!


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## db601 (Oct 3, 2008)

Oldsarge, I'm with you. Penneys work shirt above levis. Wore a Filson red buffalo check mackinaw when it was cold, which was eight months/year. Topped with a highly personalized hardhat (off duty a nice blue engineer hat with large white polka dots). Never thought of it as a "look",it was just what everyone wore in scenic Anaconda, Mont. Couldn't wait to ditch the boots and wear sneakers, though. Hence my atempt at devining the message of the inscrutable lass in the initial post.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

poorboy said:


> I purchased a pair of Allen Edmonds Malverns in suede and find them really comfortable. I show my lady friend, who is in her early 30's and is a good dresser herself, and she has a lukewarm reaction to them and then points to another pair of boots that she said looked a lot better to her because they were more masculine.
> 
> I mentioned to her that James Bond wore a pair of chukkas in Quantum of Solace, so they are fairly fashionable, but she still liked the black boots.


The boots on the left might serve well as work boots, but those on the right are far more handsome. None-the-less your fair lady's remark serves well to illustrate a number of points, some of which are, randomly -

1. Very few women can dress men. (And the opposite is also usually true.)

2. Women tend to like fashion, whereas discerning men gravitate toward classics.

3. Women often tend to think of an article of clothing individually rather than in context. I.e., it would be entirely predictable if your friend were to comment how good you looked while wearing your AE's.

4. Ladies maintain the right to change their mind. (As often as they wish, and without notice or provocation. So it is entirely consistent from within the female perspective if 3 months from now she were to tell you that she loved your brown suede boots and that the black ones were "ugly." And 3 months following that, that she has always hated the brown ones, and why can't you wear the nice black ones? And that she has never said anything different!)


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## lbv2k (Feb 16, 2010)

Flanderian said:


> The boots on the left might serve well as work boots, but those on the right are far more handsome. None-the-less your fair lady's remark serves well to illustrate a number of points, some of which are, randomly -
> 
> 1. Very few women can dress men. (And the opposite is also usually true.)
> 
> ...


Sir, I cannot agree more.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> You mean I can't wear them with my camo pants, camo jacket, black turtleneck, and camo ball cap? Carrying my pistol grip camo Mossberg while driving my camo Jeep? C'mon Sarge!


I was paid to wear camo for twenty-nine years. I thought that was a good reason to wear it. I haven't been able to come up with another but I guess there might be one.:icon_scratch:

Don't knock the Mossy. In stainless steel at sea nothing beats them. :cool2:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

What women like sitting on a shelf and what they will like when actually worn (without even consciously processing/noticing the clothing) are two VASTLY different things.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Say "Yes, dear" and wear them anyway. Then get her a small jug of Chanel #5. A couple cycles of this, and no problem...


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*This is like seeing a meteorite!*

Wow! Finally saw one happen right in front of me! Bitchin'!


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Wow! Bright enough to see in daylight? Bitchin', indeed.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

poorboy said:


> I purchased a pair of Allen Edmonds Malverns in suede and find them really comfortable. I show my lady friend, who is in her early 30's and is a good dresser herself, and she has a lukewarm reaction to them and then points to another pair of boots that she said looked a lot better to her because they were more masculine.
> 
> I mentioned to her that James Bond wore a pair of chukkas in Quantum of Solace, so they are fairly fashionable, but she still liked the black boots.


If the question is which boots are right for cutting down a tree, going on a hike, clearing some brush, the answer would be the jump boots. If the question is which will look better with a pair of trousers (jeans/khakis) and a shirt and going out casually the answer is the chukkas. If you are planning on moshing the jump boots are your best option.

Maybe she was just having a Freudian moment, in that case ..........


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

mrp said:


> Maybe she was just having a Freudian moment, in that case ..........


Glad you said that and not me.

:devil:


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Now see? Cluelessness is a male secondary sex characteristic. Here she was giving you this big, luscious hint and mrp was the only one to catch it. Sad, just sad.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

RM Bantista said:


> Sirs, Gentle persons all,
> Let us please not demean the taste of a lady we do not know, nor say that what she may feel is appropriate is wrong. No doubt she has her reasons, which are not for us to judge. It's always ladies choice, gentlemen, and please do not forget this. It is essential.
> As to footwear, one has options. Have had boots like those and chukkas both in my racks of available options. It is not a question of either or. It is a question of whether one chooses to have the lady or have...what? Boots? Please.
> Have both if you wish.
> ...


Mr. Bantista is the gentleman from amongst the members of this forum that I would most like to drink a Scotch and smoke a cigar with. :icon_study:


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Get thee gone, AndrisenMortonMan, get thee gone, sir.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Oldsarge said:


> There is masculine and there is masculine, as you subtly pointed out. Well polished boots under a sharp looking uniform, properly adorned in a chest full of ribbons definitely reeks testosterone but tell me that Marcello Mastrioni didn't do just as well in his Neapolitan flannels? I'm sorry, but just ignore her complaints. Either she'll come around or she isn't worth keeping.


LOL. You are a wise man, Oldsarge, although, keep in mind that certain styles are arguably ageless! It was almost 45 years ago that my wife (then girl friend) found me rather fetching in my OD flightsuit and boots that were quite similar to the combat boots pictured in the OP. All these years I suspected it was the flightsuit, but then the present OP caused me to wondercrazy, could it have been the boots? Then your thoughtful offer of perhaps a more mature, insightful perspective on the matter, has restored my faith in the visual effects of a flightsuit! Thank gawd I kept a few for those dress-up opportunities in our present day bedroom!  Or perhaps one day they will serve as a convenient 'adult sized onsie,' for the final years in the nursing home? At that point, I fear the testosterone of which you speak, will have turned to some form of vinegar! ROFALOL.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Oldsarge said:


> Don't knock the Mossy. In stainless steel at sea nothing beats them. :cool2:


Certainly not knocking it. I own 2 12's, Joelle has a 20, and we bought our oldest a 12 for his birthday. The three younger ones will get theirs at the appropriate age.

And in case I forgot, thank you for your service.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I traded in my Mossy 930 on a Benelli Super Black Eagle (now shoot a Benelli Super Vinci) and never looked back. They're great for the money, but after 3 years of seldom maintenance and frequent drops in the mud, muck, and salty swamps where I hunt ducks, the Benellis come out on top. 

Regarding the women/men style preferences, I thought this was going to be a thread on the GQ poll a few years back that said women prefer men in t-shirts, straight cut jeans, and sneakers to any other clothing. This thread proved vastly more interesting.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Well, consider the participants . . . :icon_smile_wink:


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Gentlemen,
Many thanks to you for your kind words and good wishes. It is my great pleasure to still be with my one and only lady and beloved wife of 38 years (39, this year if she'll have me).
One endeavors to treat others with respect and courtesy as we are all one and only ourselves. We do the best we are able and try to keep one another alive and well. We all live to make the lives of others easier and our own beneficial to our own aims. May we all keep our aims true, and let us always leave the campsite better than when we found it.
Please feel free to live and grow to be the best You there ever was; there will certainly never be another.
Regards and respect to all gentle persons,
rudy


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## IvanD (Jan 5, 2012)

RM Bantista said:


> Gentlemen,
> Many thanks to you for your kind words and good wishes. It is my great pleasure to still be with my one and only lady and beloved wife of 38 years (39, this year if she'll have me).
> One endeavors to treat others with respect and courtesy as we are all one and only ourselves. We do the best we are able and try to keep one another alive and well. We all live to make the lives of others easier and our own beneficial to our own aims. May we all keep our aims true, and let us always leave the campsite better than when we found it.
> Please feel free to live and grow to be the best You there ever was; there will certainly never be another.
> ...


I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your posts. :icon_hailthee:
Always a pleasure to read, keep up the good work sir!
Kind regards
Ivan


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## Prisoner of Zendaline (Dec 8, 2008)

Congratulations on being involved with a woman who actually appreciates men. You're one of a lucky few. My impression is that an awful lot of women only _settle for_ men, because they can't have what they _really_ want. They seem in a constant battle against the manliness of their menfolk. Yours sounds like a real *keeper*.

While the suede shoes are beauties, they probably do nothing for the way YOU look. The big boots will make your lower legs look more massive, and will also help the upper portions of your trousers attain the ideal state of 'flou'....standing out from the body... making your thighs look more massive, too.

If you have impossibly narrow pelvic structure, combined with massive leg muscles, then I'm sure the chukka boots look great on you. But, if you're built like that, then EVERYTHING you put on will look great on you. For mere mortals, however...those of us without superhero bodies... big boots accentuate masculine proportions. That's why cowboy boots make men look better, too.

I suspect your female counterpart is looking at the whole picture (also rare), while you're looking at an individual component.


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## randyrobotron (May 31, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> 1. Very few women can dress men. (And the opposite is also usually true.)
> 
> 2. Women tend to like fashion, whereas discerning men gravitate toward classics.


Very good points. I do know quite a few ladies who do a good job dressing men, I must say. But it's usually those guys who have no clue about what looks good. But women do get pretty wrapped up in what's hot now, and can be quite persistent on what looks good in general rather than what looks good on you. If it comes out in tomorrow's fashion digest, she will totally love it.

In this case, my vote goes with the chukkas as well.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Why men even bother to ask women what they think about clothes and footwear is beyond me. 

I wear what I want to wear, I don't care what my wife thinks about it.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

My partner and I tend to dress in a way that compliments one another, that is we will endeavour to ensure that our levels of formality (or otherwise) are in approximate accord. I am pleased to report that I enjoy a partner who is enthusiastic about attire, although she may wonder occasionally if I am not too intimately involved with my shoes. ahem.

If I may, I believe that women's perception of suitable male apparel is distorted by the examples that they are so frequently exposed to. It never ceases to shock me, in say a restaurant, when a lady has made not inconsiderable effort with her appearance but her companion is an utter slob. This can precipitate, amongst females, the impression that a tucked in shirt is dressed up, and if you put on a jacket you 'must be going for a job interview'. I imagine as a gender that we only have ourselves to blame for lack of adequate representation in sartorial matters.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Shaver said:


> although she may wonder occasionally if I am not too intimately involved with my shoes. ahem.


ha ha ha..I recognise that, my wife says we must be the only couple in Sweden in which the man has at least three times as many pairs of shoes as the woman.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> ha ha ha..I recognise that, my wife says we must be the only couple in Sweden in which the man has at least three times as many pairs of shoes as the woman.


 oh, now you are making me jealous; sounds like you have a fair few pairs to choose from. :icon_smile_big:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Prisoner of Zendaline said:


> If you have impossibly narrow pelvic structure, combined with massive leg muscles, then I'm sure the chukka boots look great on you. But, if you're built like that, then EVERYTHING you put on will look great on you. For mere mortals, however...those of us without superhero bodies... big boots accentuate masculine proportions. That's why cowboy boots make men look better, too.


I think there's some good insight here. I'm puzzled by the current fascination with "sleek" footwear; men tend to be rather stouter of structure than women, and our shoes and clothes should match. In fact, most of what is wrong with current fashion is that men are being told to dress like women.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Why men even bother to ask women what they think about clothes and footwear is beyond me.
> 
> I wear what I want to wear, I don't care what my wife thinks about it.





CuffDaddy said:


> I think there's some good insight here. I'm puzzled by the current fascination with "sleek" footwear; men tend to be rather stouter of structure than women, and our shoes and clothes should match. In fact, most of what is wrong with current fashion is that men are being told to dress like women.


Splendidly true on both counts. I'm a adult, dammit. My mother stopped dressing me decades ago. Why should I allow my wife to take over?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I care (somewhat) about my wife's reaction to an overall ensemble. She can certainly tell better than me if a particular pair of trousers or a jacket makes me look (even) fat(ter) from the back. But as to specific items? I mostly keep my own counsel, and routinely overrule objections. BTW, my wife is a color consultant (mainly paint, not clothing, but she has the colorist's eye), worked in men's upscale clothing retail for a few years, and has lived with me for a dozen or so years, so she's in the 99th percentile of women re: taste in men's clothing.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Oldsarge said:


> Splendidly true on both counts. I'm a adult, dammit. My mother stopped dressing me decades ago. Why should I allow my wife to take over?


oldsarge there is a significant difference between allowing your wife to dress you (which frankly sickens me. Some males I know, their wives clothes shop for them!!) and caring what she might think about what you wear surely?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I was in a clothes shop recently, buying some shirts, when a couple of pensioners came in to buy a shirt and tie for him, whereby the male sales assistant and the wife started discussing what tie to buy for that particular shirt without consulting the man who was just standing there looking uncomfortable. 

I just couldn't let it go, I had to say something, so I said to the elderly man, "what tie do you like with that shirt, you pick, after all you'll be wearing it?" he replied with a grateful smile "that's true" and his wife and the assistant gave a nervous laugh & for the first time turned their attention to him, for his opinion.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Shaver said:


> oldsarge there is a significant difference between allowing your wife to dress you (which frankly sickens me. Some males I know, their wives clothes shop for them!!) and caring what she might think about what you wear surely?


Yes, there is a wide gulf between 'advise' and 'take over'.



Earl of Ormonde said:


> I was in a clothes shop recently, buying some shirts, when a couple of pensioners came in to buy a shirt and tie for him, whereby the male sales assistant and the wife started discussing what tie to buy for that particular shirt without consulting the man who was just standing there looking uncomfortable.
> 
> I just couldn't let it go, I had to say osmething, so I said to the elderly man, "what tie do you like with that shirt, you pick, after all you'll be wearing it?" he replied with a grateful smile "that's true" and his wife and the assistant gave a nervous laugh & for the first time turned their attention to him, for his opinion.


Well done, that man!


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## alkydrinker (Apr 24, 2012)

Shaver said:


> If I may, I believe that women's perception of suitable male apparel is distorted by the examples that they are so frequently exposed to. It never ceases to shock me, in say a restaurant, when a lady has made not inconsiderable effort with her appearance but her companion is an utter slob. This can precipitate, amongst females, the impression that a tucked in shirt is dressed up, and if you put on a jacket you 'must be going for a job interview'. I imagine as a gender that we only have ourselves to blame for lack of adequate representation in sartorial matters.


I think this correlates to a modern day phenomenon of a general loss of manhood, where males are becoming perpetual boys into adulthood. I have read a couple articles about this recently, and routinely observe it as well. Many modern young men are relying on woman as breadwinners and in fullfilling other miscellaeneous adult responsibilities that men used to matter-of-factly assume no later in life than their early 20s. I am 32 years and see this all the time among my peers and, in fact, have some trouble maintaining friendships because of it. Something about men in their 30s and beyond playing video games is just wrong to me. Even TV adverstising for awhile now has tended to depict Dad as some goofy, hopeless object of ridicule.

It is depressing that many woman just accept and effectively enable this behavior. It is mind boggling how some very attractive, successful woman latch on to little boys. I think it has just become the new normal.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

alkydrinker said:


> I think this correlates to a modern day phenomenon of a general loss of manhood, where males are becoming perpetual boys into adulthood. I have read a couple articles about this recently, and routinely observe it as well. Many modern young men are relying on woman as breadwinners and in fullfilling other miscellaeneous adult responsibilities that men used to matter-of-factly assume no later in life than their early 20s. I am 32 years and see this all the time among my peers and, in fact, have some trouble maintaining friendships because of it. Something about men in their 30s and beyond playing video games is just wrong to me. Even TV adverstising for awhile now has tended to depict Dad as some goofy, hopeless object of ridicule.
> 
> It is depressing that many woman just accept and effectively enable this behavior. It is mind boggling how some very attractive, successful woman latch on to little boys. I think it has just become the new normal.


Careful, or you'll come across as a 1950's misogynist. Relative to (and, actually, regardless of) their proportion of the population, there are fewer female breadwinners than male breadwinners in the US. Further, females comprise a slightly smaller proportion of the workforce than men do even though there are more females in the US than males. Yes, many forms of media tend to depict dear old dad as goofy, helpless, and childish and mommy dearest as strong and intelligent. And while it may be true in some cases, it also has a correlation to the gender-neutral pronoun shift from "he" (known as "the universal he") to "she" (now known as "the universal she") in the past 15 years. This can be somewhat attributed to a feminist push back against the centuries-old patriarchal structure of western society. Let's not go there...

In a couple of years, my partner will be the breadwinner. I don't do poorly at all, I've never owned a video game, and I rarely watch TV. We're intellectually very even, but she has different goals than I do and has consequently found herself in medical school. I'm okay with knowing that once her residency is over, it will be long time (and that time may never come) before I make more than she does. Traditionally, women have not had the same professional opportunities as men and I think that society now, perhaps subconsciously, pushes women a bit harder than their male counterparts into traditionally male-dominated professions.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

MY wife and I have been somewhat nip and tuck in the income department until I retired two years ago. Now, of course, she makes quite a bit more than I do. No problem. Who cares where it comes from so long as I get to spend it!


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

alkydrinker said:


> Something about men in their 30s and beyond playing video games is just wrong to me.


Hey, now, I'm the sole breadwinner in my family, fairly well-educated, reasonably successful, etc. I enjoy the occasional video game; I don't see why it is inherently any more juvenile than playing any other kind of game (such as golf, which I also enjoy) or consuming other kinds of media, such as movies (same).


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

alkydrinker said:


> I think this correlates to a modern day phenomenon of a general loss of manhood, where males are becoming perpetual boys into adulthood.


This is undoubtedly true, but it may be true of the female sex as well, except that physical and psychological maturity comes, for purely biological reasons, earlier in human females than males. But the Peter Pan mentality is there. None of us wants to grow old, but far too many don't want to grow up.


Tilton said:


> . Yes, many forms of media tend to depict dear old dad as goofy, helpless, and childish and mommy dearest as strong and intelligent.


This, I think, is the real problem. Men of all ages are constantly depicted as pests, as incompetents, or indeed as both.


> Traditionally, women have not had the same professional opportunities as men and I think that society now, perhaps subconsciously, pushes women a bit harder than their male counterparts into traditionally male-dominated professions.


I actually come from a role-reversed home of the 1950s; my mother was the breadwinner, my father at home because of ill-health. It was, I think, strange and disturbing for him, but I don't think it affected the others of the family much.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> Hey, now, I'm the sole breadwinner in my family, fairly well-educated, reasonably successful, etc. I enjoy the occasional video game; I don't see why it is inherently any more juvenile than playing any other kind of game (such as golf, which I also enjoy) or consuming other kinds of media, such as movies (same).


Well, I too find it troubling for grown men to be playing video games. I guess it's not that they play video games that's the problem, but rather the amount of time spent doing it; but that's another subject for another forum.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

triklops55 said:


> Well, I too find it troubling for grown men to be playing video games. I guess it's not that they play video games that's the problem, but rather the amount of time spent doing it; but that's another subject for another forum.


Again, I don't see why it would be any different than any other recreational activity. Plenty of other people engage in various hobbies and media consumption preferences that I do not share or even understand; I do not presume to be in a position to deem them "troubling," though, absent some additional basis for doing so.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

williamson said:


> except that physical and psychological maturity comes, for purely biological reasons, earlier in human females than males.


Not entirely true. It is a proven fact that because birth control in developed countries is so widely used, and because water filtration systems cannot filter out estrogen, people receive greatly increased doses of estrogen and, in girls, this brings on puberty at a much quicker rate than in pre-hormone-based birth control times.Take a look around the internet, this issue has definitively caused several species of fish to androgenize and the rate of androgenization is directly related to how long the fish live in a water system that contains purified waste water.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Oldsarge said:


> Why should I allow my wife to take over?


 Because you prefer not to sleep on the couch?



Tilton said:


> Not entirely true. It is a proven fact that because birth control in developed countries is so widely used, and because water filtration systems cannot filter out estrogen, people receive greatly increased doses of estrogen and, in girls, this brings on puberty at a much quicker rate than in pre-hormone-based birth control times.Take a look around the internet, this issue has definitively caused several species of fish to androgenize and the rate of androgenization is directly related to how long the fish live in a water system that contains purified waste water.


Finally something useful in this thread: My private well must be why my breasts are not developing at the same rate as those of my peers. Given the number of shirts I own, maintaining the well is a good investment.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Girls have been entering puberty on the average of six months earlier every decade since the beginning of the XX Century. Estrogen in the water supply has _nothing_ to do with it. What does is still a matter of much discussion with lack of physical exercise being the most likely culprit. And developmentally, girls do indeed have about two years on boys up to about the age of fourteen when they stop and the boys keep going until they have caught up. In both sexes, however, neurological development is incomplete until about the age of thirty.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Because you prefer not to sleep on the couch?


Piffle. I go to bed first. If she doesn't want to sleep with me, _she_ can sleep on the couch.

It's the normal situation. A night owl always marries a lark. I'm the lark.


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## Acme (Oct 5, 2011)

CuffDaddy said:


> Again, I don't see why it would be any different than any other recreational activity.


CuffDaddy,

Your comments reminded me of a recent article on the BBC's website. I was rather fascinated to find out that the average video gamer is 37 years old, and that boys under the age of 17 only make up 13% of the online gaming community.

I didn't see that coming, though in retrospect it's not surprising. Especially when you consider that Generation X grew up with Pacman.


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

alkydrinker said:


> Even TV adverstising for awhile now has tended to depict Dad as some goofy, hopeless object of ridicule.[/
> QUOTE]
> New Member alkydrinker,
> This has been an objectionable trend for some time. And it would seem to be a reaction to the 'Father knows best', 'Bonanza', and other depictions of male dominance over the life of the family description of the way things should be as much as anything else. Always bothered me as my children are warm hearted, knowledgeable, skilled, and compasionate humans who are always appreciated whatever they assail. Naturally, their good mother has some input and credit for this, but so have I had. They would tell you as much if you could ask. Good fathers and good men are not widely appreciated, unless they are your good father or your good man, Ladies. Then you will note the difference in outcomes.
> ...


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

alkydrinker said:


> I think this correlates to a modern day phenomenon of a general loss of manhood, where males are becoming perpetual boys into adulthood......It is depressing that many woman just accept and effectively enable this behavior. It is mind boggling how some very attractive, successful woman latch on to little boys. I think it has just become the new normal.


Alkydrinker, I tend to agree. Infantilism does not accord with my definition of masculinity.



Tilton said:


> Careful, or you'll come across as a 1950's misogynist.


Tilton, I am unclear as to how alkydrinker's post could be construed this way. Can I respectfully encourage you to expand upon this statement?



CuffDaddy said:


> Again, I don't see why it would be any different than any other recreational activity. .


Cuffdaddy, I am afraid that there is (rightly or wrongly) a very strong perception of the video gamer. I would be ashamed to admit it were I given to squandering my leisure time sequestered away, huddled over a console, curtains closed, twiddling at the buttons whilst pretending to be the hero of WWII. 
:icon_smile_wink:



alkydrinker said:


> Even TV adverstising for awhile now has tended to depict Dad as some goofy, hopeless object of ridicule.


Misogeny is a word we all understand the meaning of. Misandry, on the other hand, is rarely heard. You may have your own opinion as to why this might be.



RMBANISTA said:


> But ads are not life.


Unfortunately, Rudy, for some people they are. Aspirational templates for all that is of value which may if adopted provide succor and quench desire.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Acme said:


> I didn't see that coming, though in retrospect it's not surprising. Especially when you consider that Generation X grew up with Pacman.


Exactly. I grew up playing videogames. If I have a bit of spare time after work, after putting the offspring to bed, after performing any chores that need doing, I don't see why solving electronic puzzles is any more a waste of time than passively watching a sit-com or reading some paperback novel tripe. I will concede that there are more virtuous things I could spend my time doing - learning a foreign language, re-reading classics of literature, etc. - but sometimes I lack the mental energy for those things.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Cuffdaddy, I am afraid that there is (rightly or wrongly) a very strong perception of the video gamer. I would be ashamed to admit it were I given to squandering my leisure time sequestered away, huddled over a console, curtains closed, twiddling at the buttons whilst pretending to be the hero of WWII.
> :icon_smile_wink:


Well, correcting such ignorant misconceptions is why I said something. BTW, you aren't under the impression that one "pretends" to be the character on the screen, are you? Videogames are engaging because they present enormously complex problem-solving challenges.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Well, correcting such ignorant misconceptions is why I said something. BTW, you aren't under the impression that one "pretends" to be the character on the screen, are you? Videogames are engaging because they present enormously complex problem-solving challenges.


pretend as in simulated, counterfit, to play a part etc. well, yes, obviously there *is* pretence. However now my ignorance has been so brightly exposed I shall toddle off down to the game shop to by one of these apparently laudable and improving devices. :icon_smile_wink:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Might be a good idea.

https://www.pbs.org/mediashift/2011/08/the-literacy-of-gaming-what-kids-learn-from-playing215.htmlhttps://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2011/11/research-video-games-help-with-creativity/1#.T9H_nLDpFRQhttps://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Health/story?id=814080&page=1#.T9H_sLDpFRQhttps://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?70168-Use-of-Computer-games-to-train-soldiers-for-war-surgesThe real question is what the videogame time is being swapped for. If you're playing videogames in lieu of passive consumption of entertainment, you're likely better off. If you're swapping it for more substantive hobbies, the trade-off may be negative. Those who are such paragons of virtue, such renaissance men, or such tireless workers that they simply do not spend any time on passive entertainment should stick to their ways and stay clear of videogames. Those who, you know, watch television can probably dabble without fear of losing anything important.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Oldsarge said:


> In both sexes, however, neurological development is incomplete until about the age of thirty.


Do you remember the "trust noone over thirty" slogan of the hippie/student radical generation? Those who think that the under-thirties have some peculiar wisdom denied to those older should be told what you have mentioned in no uncertain terms.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Might be a good idea.
> 
> https://www.pbs.org/mediashift/2011/08/the-literacy-of-gaming-what-kids-learn-from-playing215.htmlhttps://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2011/11/research-video-games-help-with-creativity/1#.T9H_nLDpFRQhttps://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Health/story?id=814080&page=1#.T9H_sLDpFRQhttps://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?70168-Use-of-Computer-games-to-train-soldiers-for-war-surgesThe real question is what the videogame time is being swapped for. If you're playing videogames in lieu of passive consumption of entertainment, you're likely better off. If you're swapping it for more substantive hobbies, the trade-off may be negative. Those who are such paragons of virtue, such renaissance men, or such tireless workers that they simply do not spend any time on passive entertainment should stick to their ways and stay clear of videogames. Those who, you know, watch television can probably dabble without fear of losing anything important.


Cuffdaddy 3 of the 4 links you supplied specifically relate to _juveniles_; the benefits for children. Does that not merely support the position of those who have expressed concern that it may be considered a passtime ill behooving an adult?

I appreciate that this appears to be a rather sensitive subject for you but allow me to assure that I do not wish to provoke, merely to discuss cordially. Please consider the information as per link below;

https://healthland.time.com/2009/08/18/playing-too-many-video-games-is-bad-for-you-too-grown-ups/


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## alkydrinker (Apr 24, 2012)

I didn't mean to be too rigid in my post. My wife made more money than me for a long time (now somewhere around equal) and one of my dearest friends, age 35, plays some video games. 

So, I don't think a wife's income being more than a man's is necessarily emasculating in all cases....but when it is happening in society to an extreme combined with other loss-of-manhood traits on a broad scale it signals something going on. I think done right, a man could be stay-at-home-dad and still be properly manly. And, I personally don't get modern video games (though I would enjoy playing arcade classics for about 1 -2 hours per year), if a man enjoys them I think it can be OK as long as they are treated appropriately as an occasional trifle.

What bugs me is men who live off women (becoming more and more common). Also, men who can't handle personal business in a direct, effective, personable way. I see lots of men becoming awkard shrinking violets when conducting day-to-day business as simple as ordering at a restaurant. In some cases you'll see a man shrink back like a 6 year old boy as his wife conducts some matter of business. You can just see they have no concept of taking on an appropriate male role. I don't mean men should be an all-powerful, dominating god of every situation, just have some presence and decisiveness along with politeness. It can definately still be done with a modern 50/50 power split with the woman.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Of course the vast majority of research relates to kids... because most of the speculation as to the harm of videogames relates to kids. Grown-ups are commonly thought to be able to judge for themselves how they spend their time!

The link that you posted contains some rather obvious information. Of course playing videogames to excess is bad for your health. Eating fine cuisine to excess is bad for your health. Jogging too much is bad for your health. It's hard to find an activity that, done to excess, is not bad for one's health - indeed, that's a workable definition of "to excess." I'll leave aside the methodological criticism that, as with so many studies, the reporting on it seems to confuse correlation with causation. 

As for my sensitivities, don't fret, you're nowhere near them. Since I argue with people for a living, I'm fairly thick-skinned. But I do react strongly to irrational prejudices, which seem to exist against videogames.

Allow me to pose this question: Would you agree with me that watching television is not better for an adult than playing a videogame?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Of course the vast majority of research relates to kids... because most of the speculation as to the harm of videogames relates to kids. Grown-ups are commonly thought to be able to judge for themselves how they spend their time!
> 
> The link that you posted contains some rather obvious information. Of course playing videogames to excess is bad for your health. Eating fine cuisine to excess is bad for your health. Jogging too much is bad for your health. It's hard to find an activity that, done to excess, is not bad for one's health - that's sort of the definition of "to excess." I'll leave aside the methodological criticism that, as with so many studies, the reporting on it seems to confuse correlation with causation.
> 
> ...


Cuffdaddy; yeah ok; good point, well made re definition of 'to excess' in context.

You are in dialogue with one of your aforementioned 'renaissance men, paragon of virtue' types who does not consider television a worthy occupation.

That said I'm not so certain that disputing with my fellow man via the internet as to the merits or otherwise of video game play is such a worthy occupation either. Oh crikey! I'm wasting my time and possibly yours. I'm sorry. :frown:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

No worries. I noticed in another thread that you appear to be about to embark on learning to fly whirlybirds. I think we'd all agree that constitutes an excellent use of your time. If you are able to consistently fill all your time with such worthy ventures, then I salute you, and can only hope that you understand that many of us mortals have chunks of time that resist filling so admirably. I, for one, love to play golf, but that doesn't work terribly well at 9pm. Nor does playing the drums go over well with the wife after we've put our daughter to bed! I like to shoot skeet, but the operators of the range near me are curiously insistent that this be done during daylight hours. 

There are simply times when I get home after a hard day and need to unwind with something that's engrossing, substantively divorced from anything I've spent the day on, requires neither leaving the homestead nor daylight nor earmuffs, and compatible with a block of time of less than an hour. About once a week, that time is reasonably likely to get filled with a videogame. I should probably spend it doing push-ups while listening to a Berlitz course teaching me to speak Italian, but I'm a weak soul. Forgive me.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> No worries. I noticed in another thread that you appear to be about to embark on learning to fly whirlybirds. I think we'd all agree that constitutes an excellent use of your time. If you are able to consistently fill all your time with such worthy ventures, then I salute you, and can only hope that you understand that many of us mortals have chunks of time that resist filling so admirably. I, for one, love to play golf, but that doesn't work terribly well at 9pm. Nor does playing the drums go over well with the wife after we've put our daughter to bed! I like to shoot skeet, but the operators of the range near me are curiously insistent that this be done during daylight hours.
> 
> There are simply times when I get home after a hard day and need to unwind with something that's engrossing, substantively divorced from anything I've spent the day on, requires neither leaving the homestead nor daylight nor earmuffs, and compatible with a block of time of less than an hour. About once a week, that time is reasonably likely to get filled with a videogame. I should probably spend it doing push-ups while listening to a Berlitz course teaching me to speak Italian, but I'm a weak soul. Forgive me.


Of course, forgiven, forgotten etc. Believe me, I have not put my entire life to noble purpose.

BTW It is extremely easy to entrench one's position in these threads isn't it? I really need to be more aware of this phenomenon.

Enjoy your weekend - however you choose to spend it!


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Shaver said:


> pretend as in simulated, counterfit, to play a part etc. well, yes, obviously there *is* pretence. However now my ignorance has been so brightly exposed I shall toddle off down to the game shop to by one of these apparently laudable and improving devices. :icon_smile_wink:


If you are serious about it and have deep pockets don't bother with a console, learn something about building your own PC. Fortunately I was late to this portion of the thread late, as I could write volumes on it from early main frame lunar lander sims to the current stage of gaming, be it MMO's or Sims. 
BTW the one thing I've never learned to do in life is idly sit and watch someone else at sports on the tube.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Shaver said:


> Tilton, I am unclear as to how alkydrinker's post could be construed this way. Can I respectfully encourage you to expand upon this statement?


Gladly.

AlkyDrinker implied in his post that is in some way wrong or bad that women can fulfill a traditionally manly role, such as being the breadwinner or assuming other, ambiguous, "manly" tasks or jobs. This counters the idea that women are equal to men. A pretty standard view is that feminism is exactly 180 degree away from a patriarchal society and that misogyny is indeed both the cause and result of a patriarchal society. Stating that certain tasks are for men, such as being the breadwinner of a family, is pretty straight-forward patriarchal thinking.

Of course, duties such as mowing the lawn, cutting wood, etc _can_ be man-tasks without being discriminatory, but that is, of course does not mean such tasks inherently _are _man-tasks, and man-tasks only.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Tilton said:


> Gladly.
> 
> AlkyDrinker implied in his post that is in some way wrong or bad that women can fulfill a traditionally manly role, such as being the breadwinner or assuming other, ambiguous, "manly" tasks or jobs. This counters the idea that women are equal to men. A pretty standard view is that feminism is exactly 180 degree away from a patriarchal society and that misogyny is indeed both the cause and result of a patriarchal society. Stating that certain tasks are for men, such as being the breadwinner of a family, is pretty straight-forward patriarchal thinking.
> 
> Of course, duties such as mowing the lawn, cutting wood, etc _can_ be man-tasks without being discriminatory, but that is, of course does not mean such tasks inherently _are _man-tasks, and man-tasks only.


Tilton, I wonder if the original post has been edited prior to my reading. I have just re-read it to refresh my memory and remain unable to infer from it even a flavour of that which you have observed. It appears to me a very straight forward criticism of juvenility in adult males and specifically an inability to accept responsibilty for and ownership of their lives. That females increasingly have little option but to accept this relinquishment on the part of many men does not contain an inherent gender criticism nor define masculine/feminine stereotypes.

Can you perhaps identify any specific phrases within alkydrinkers post which might clarify your assertion?


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

alkydrinker said:


> I think this correlates to a modern day phenomenon of a general loss of manhood, where males are becoming perpetual boys into adulthood. I have read a couple articles about this recently, and routinely observe it as well. *Many modern young men are relying on woman as breadwinners and in fullfilling other miscellaeneous adult responsibilities that men used to matter-of-factly assume no later in life than their early 20s.* I am 32 years and see this all the time among my peers and, in fact, have some trouble maintaining friendships because of it. Something about men in their 30s and beyond playing video games is just wrong to me. Even TV adverstising for awhile now has tended to depict Dad as some goofy, hopeless object of ridicule.
> 
> It is depressing that many woman just accept and effectively enable this behavior. It is mind boggling how some very attractive, successful woman latch on to little boys. I think it has just become the new normal.


Bolded.

My question is what sorts of roles, other than being a father figure, are roles that Alky is implying a man should be in and women shouldn't. The mere fact that a portion of the complaint is that women are performing tasks that men "should" be assuming implies that there are certain things women are unfit to perform. I'm no feminist, I just think that saying certain responsibilities such as breadwinning are things that men should be doing is not giving women enough credit. You will certainly have no problem finding women who will be happy to stay at home and be homemakers, but to imply that a man bringing home the bacon is the way things should be is to imply that women are not equal, whether you take that "women should not make as much as men" or "women should not work." I understand what he's saying, maybe, but this is the wrong way to say it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, though. You either have men _always _being the breadwinners and assuming "adult responsibilities" or you have strong, successful women, on equal footing as men in society.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Tilton said:


> Bolded.
> 
> My question is what sorts of roles, other than being a father figure, are roles that Alky is implying a man should be in and women shouldn't. The mere fact that a portion of the complaint is that women are performing tasks that men "should" be assuming implies that there are certain things women are unfit to perform. I'm no feminist, I just think that saying certain responsibilities such as breadwinning are things that men should be doing is not giving women enough credit. You will certainly have no problem finding women who will be happy to stay at home and be homemakers, but to imply that a man bringing home the bacon is the way things should be is to imply that women are not equal, whether you take that "women should not make as much as men" or "women should not work." I understand what he's saying, maybe, but this is the wrong way to say it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, though. You either have men _always _being the breadwinners and assuming "adult responsibilities" or you have strong, successful women, on equal footing as men in society.


I have taken alky to be commenting upon a lack of personal responsibility in modern males. I'm not convinced that it in any way implies women are unfit to perform any particular task, rather that some men are defaulting on their reponsibilities to themselves and those around them. Note that alky employs the term 'adult responsibilities' which is in no way gender specific. The generic women of alky's statement are performing tasks, those that men should be performing not just because they are men but because they should be accountable for their own decisions.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Sure, I can absolutely see it that way. However, I can also, very easily, see it come across a much different way. That's why I told him to take care in making those sorts of comments. I will admit that I saw it the other way first and just ran with it, though.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Tilton said:


> Sure, I can absolutely see it that way. However, I can also, very easily, see it come across a much different way. That's why I told him to take care in making those sorts of comments. I will admit that I saw it the other way first and just ran with it, though.


either way, it's been an enjoyable discourse. :smile:


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Doubt I'll ever get back to your area, But should you pass through mine, and most do from time to time, let me know and there may be a pleasant afternoon to be enjoyed. And I do thank you for that great compliment.
Regards,
rudy


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I went out for drinks with a number of female coworkers the other night and they all commented on how nicely I dress at our casual office. I'm one of a few who wears sports coats, though I don't wear one at my desk. Some mentioned how old-fashioned I dressed, calling me an "old soul", and they all said they really liked that I dress that way. I'm the youngest in my office at 24, though it's mostly people under 40. They also commented on how I had a raincoat and umbrella, though they said that like it's an old-fashioned thing to do. But now that I think of it, I'm one of only a few guys who ever comes to the office prepared for rain (which we've had every day this week here in New York). They mostly just deal with getting soaked.


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Gentlemen,
Under no circumstances should we forget that without strong women we could not have become civilized human beings with a potential for advanced culture and grand achievement for at least 5,000 years ago and more probably older days than we know. History has been altered many times by unfortunate purging of the archives of achievement. This is why we did not have sophisticated computational production from 1200 AD. Something like that; and the similar opportunity was available in the 1800's. But it is not until now that we have hand held computers that are more capable than any that have ever been in our telephones, and what do we do with them? Text while driving? 
Very sound use of human knowledge. We do need the organs to transplant into Dick Chaney and Larry Hagman after all, and we should do everything we can to encourage young people to make terrible choices that will result in more organ donation and fewer demands on social security and end of life Medicare.
Very sensible.
It is always possible that we may chose a better plan for the future of our prosperity. We only need to be smarter and more thoughtful about how we wish to spend our time, resources, and computing cycles in the grand scheme of things that we may do with our time and dime.
There is no reason to waste the potential of the younger minds with fresh solutions, nor is it productive to waste the experience and life skills and work ethic of the more senior workers who know stuff and show up on the day.
Business people are overly fixated on qualifications and exact criteria for employment of staff. This is too restrictive thinking as is exhibited in any point in the available historical record you may select. The innovation and success is often from left field and completely out of line and out of the park.
Baseball, I know. Obscure and not communicative to a worldwide audience.
Observe, the young have much to offer but no experience, the elders have much to offer and only a few years left to share their knowledge and experience with the young.
An over emphasis on credentials will hold an enterprise back from success as opposed to a fair evaluation of potential, which will bring success.
Again, I apologize for wandering far afield of the first topic of the thread.
Maybe, one has bones to pick with some thinking that has nothing to do with any of our fellows and colleagues here.
But women are the mothers of our civilization, survival, and the foundation of our survival. We would do better to treasure their efforts and imagination than to ignore same.
Just saying,
rudy


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

triklops55 said:


> Well, I too find it troubling for grown men to be playing video games. I guess it's not that they play video games that's the problem, but rather the amount of time spent doing it; but that's another subject for another forum.


You mean as opposed to playing golf, shooting skeet, IPSC/IDPA, windsurfing, watching TV, reading detective novels, stamp collecting, model train building or any one of a half million other things that men find interesting OTHER than their primary occupation? You know, like hanging out on a forum on the internet talking about clothes?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

mrp said:


> If you are serious about it and have deep pockets don't bother with a console, learn something about building your own PC. Fortunately I was late to this portion of the thread late, as I could write volumes on it from early main frame lunar lander sims to the current stage of gaming, be it MMO's or Sims.
> BTW the one thing I've never learned to do in life is idly sit and watch someone else at sports on the tube.


Thanks mrp. I am currently reading the book 'goto' a history of computer programming. I initially chose it to give me more scope to converse with my, hopefully, future father in law; who is a PhD mathematician and developed many of the algorithms and frequency tables applied in the early days of computing. I am finding it to be a fascinating subject and a revelation as to the intricacies of this device at which I am now tippety tapping. I am also tremendously interested in the Apollo program (and this will inform a definite destination during my visit to your Cape in August). What else might you recommend I read as a useful source of information?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

RM Bantista said:


> Doubt I'll ever get back to your area, But should you pass through mine, and most do from time to time, let me know and there may be a pleasant afternoon to be enjoyed. And I do thank you for that great compliment.
> Regards,
> rudy


Rudy, am I being dull-witted? Might I enquire to whom this post is directed? :redface:


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I'm very pleasantly surprised.

Not by your friend's reaction, but by the look of the chukkas. I generally think most A-E casual shoes are ugly, but those chukkas look great.

You have excellent taste.


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Rudy, am I being dull-witted? Might I enquire to whom this post is directed? :redface:


Sir, no, I did realize that this ended up being somewhat ambiguous; However, that aside, the gentleman who would like to drink a scotch and smoke a cigar was the person to whom I intended to respond. Then, It occurred to me that it is also true for others who are fond correspondents and respectful gentle persons. It is not my preference to travel far from the main roads of my town, but others pass through my town on a regular basis, traveling from one point to another in their personal and business pursuits and one does not limit an invitation to only one person in the end. Of course, I am here and easily found. All Gentle persons are welcome in my town. Everyone is safe and protected in my company.
You are also invited.
One has meetings and doctors as well as many work obligations, but do not be deterred if you are welcome contributors here, we may at least have a meal and a conversation.
Good fortune to you,
rudy


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Shaver said:


> Thanks mrp. I am currently reading the book 'goto' a history of computer programming. I initially chose it to give me more scope to converse with my, hopefully, future father in law; who is a PhD mathematician and developed many of the algorithms and frequency tables applied in the early days of computing. I am finding it to be a fascinating subject and a revelation as to the intricacies of this device at which I am now tippety tapping. I am also tremendously interested in the Apollo program (and this will inform a definite destination during my visit to your Cape in August). What else might you recommend I read as a useful source of information?


Morning Shaver,
The noted volume looks to be a great source on the info for the time period it covers (pre 2k), while I don't personally have the following book "The Art of Video Games: from Pac Man to Mass Effect", it looks to be good if you've had zero to limited exposure. At this point printed information has gone by the wayside, at one point there were several monthly publications, now information and reviews are web based. I will send you a PM with some links for suggested viewing.
On a side note one of the Apollo astronauts noted not too long ago, that his "Blackberry" was more powerful than the computers on the Lunar Landers.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

mrp said:


> ....On a side note one of the Apollo astronauts noted not too long ago, that his "Blackberry" was more powerful than the computers on the Lunar Landers.


In fact some modern electric toothbrush have more computing power than was available to the lunar astronauts!

Thanks mrp, I will await your PM.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

I've heard it stated that men dress to impress women and women dress to impress other women.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

Matt S said:


> They also commented on how I had a raincoat and umbrella, though they said that like it's an old-fashioned thing to do. But now that I think of it, I'm one of only a few guys who ever comes to the office prepared for rain (which we've had every day this week here in New York). They mostly just deal with getting soaked.


This goes to show that traditional/classical clothes are actually often more practical than the nondescript casual wear we see today. The price some people are willing to pay for the sake of being "cool"!


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## dreamhopereality (Nov 20, 2011)

Are you sure she's a good dresser or she looks good in her dress?



poorboy said:


> I purchased a pair of Allen Edmonds Malverns in suede and find them really comfortable. I show my lady friend, who is in her early 30's and is a good dresser herself, and she has a lukewarm reaction to them and then points to another pair of boots that she said looked a lot better to her because they were more masculine.
> 
> I mentioned to her that James Bond wore a pair of chukkas in Quantum of Solace, so they are fairly fashionable, but she still liked the black boots.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^Resurrecting a two year old thread? The author of the OP has been inactive (has not visited the fora) for well over a year. 
Surely there must be a point here, but it clearly escapes me. May I be so bold to ask, what is it? :icon_scratch:


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

petro said:


> You mean as opposed to playing golf, shooting skeet, IPSC/IDPA, windsurfing, watching TV, reading detective novels, stamp collecting, model train building or any one of a half million other things that men find interesting OTHER than their primary occupation? You know, like hanging out on a forum on the internet talking about clothes?


i'm on the fence with the video game comment. On the one hand, I can see how it could be viewed as something best left to children. I know a guy who is 30, lives with his dad and lives/breathes video games. he's single and has no social life to speak of (that i'm aware of). On the other hand, if it's something he enjoys doing and isn't hurting anyone in the process then that's his choice to make.

I enjoyed playing video games every now and again before I had a child. It was something I did to pass the time and relieve stress. It was nice to not have to think about real problems for a change. the same could be said of any hobby, as you've mentioned.


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## Quetzal (Jul 25, 2014)

The "Man-Kid" has been something of a joke since the 1980s, but was, unfortunately, taken literally in the 1990s and the 2000s; television shows of the era were of no help. I remember, long before I even knew the importance of clothing (even as a child, I wore a little suit and a clip-on tie to church and other nice events, OUT OF MY OWN CHOICE!), that something seemed awfully wrong with the then-modern man (I grew up watching old films from the 1920s-1980s, and thought that it was normal for men for wear suits, ties, and even hats as regular business clothing; there are many other things that I learned were, unfortunately, not so).

I feel, however, that there is something of a Renaissance going on, with people of my generation being the last of the slobs, and will be residue by the next decade. With luck, it will not be a "fashionable" trend to be a Man, but something that will last forever.

-Quetzal


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