# Iraq exit strategies.



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)




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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

I like the shake & bake option. But that should have been the entrance strategy, not the exit strategy.

M8


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Remember: There are people under those bombs. The blood of the innocent doesn't wash out easily.

Can I get an "amen" from some of our friends who profess to love the Prince of Peace?



Martinis at 8 said:


> I like the shake & bake option. But that should have been the entrance strategy, not the exit strategy.
> 
> M8


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

BertieW said:


> Remember: There are people under those bombs. The blood of the innocent doesn't wash out easily.
> 
> Can I get an "amen" from some of our friends who profess to love the Prince of Peace?


Hallelujah, Brother, AMEN!


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

The "Rapture" is not an exit strategy!


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

BertieW said:


> Remember: There are people under those bombs. The blood of the innocent doesn't wash out easily.
> 
> Can I get an "amen" from some of our friends who profess to love the Prince of Peace?


You seem to be equating Christianity with a pro-war mentality. At least for myself, this is not the case. I would most definitely be against such an attack.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Slip out one night en mass without telling our noble allies the brits. Leave Tony & Company holding the bag and responsible for cleaning up the mess created in pursuit of Empire and profit.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

BertieW said:


> Remember: There are people under those bombs. The blood of the innocent doesn't wash out easily.
> 
> Can I get an "amen" from some of our friends who profess to love the Prince of Peace?


No, you can't get an amen. At least not from me.

The lesson here is that we don't go to war unless we are prepared to treat it as a "national" war. Nations go to war, not armies. In which case there are no innocent civilians. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not the job any military in any war. Save that for the police.

This should have been just a punitive expedition. Specifically, topple the regime, capture the leaders and give them a swift execution via military tribunal, and then LEAVE. Followed by a stern warning with words to the effect, "we don't care who runs this place after we leave, just don't mess with us afterwards, or we will come back and repeat as necessary." That would have been an effective use of power instead of this lame-brain stuff that has been going on.

Leaving now is still a great option. I am with Napolean Bonaparte on this one, "...never interefere with an enemy in the process of committing suicide..." So, Sunnis and Shiites, have had it boys! Give war a chance. Maybe when it's all over ya'll will come up with something intelligent and secular, like the Peace of Westphalia.

M8


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Oh, another ripper of a thread JLP! 

I say we slaughter anyone that eats meat there or does not wear body armour made of free range hemp fibers.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Kav said:


> Slip out one night en mass without telling our noble allies the brits. Leave Tony & Company holding the bag and responsible for cleaning up the mess created in pursuit of Empire and profit.


I like that option. Iraq is just another European historical mess. Just like Southeast Asia. When are we Americans going to learn to quit cleaning up Europe's crap?

M8


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> I like that option. Iraq is just another European historical mess. Just like Southeast Asia. When are we Americans going to learn to quit cleaning up Europe's crap?


Damn right.

The most important thing when one's decisions or actions start to have awful consequences is to find somebody else and try and claim they are responsible.


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## queueball (Jun 16, 2005)

Étienne said:


> Damn right.
> 
> The most important thing when one's decisions or actions start to have awful consequences is to find somebody else and try and claim they are responsible.


Étienne my friend, now that I've picked myself up off of the floor and wiped the tears of laughter off of my face, it has occurred to me that if you don't remove your tongue from your cheek you won't be able to eat!

I agree wholeheartedly! This is, dare I say, a US problem. We screwed it up. We need to figure out a way to fix it. We can't blame the country we cajoled into coming along for the ride or the "Europeans." We meesed it up and need to take responsibility to fix it.

I say we just send "W" over there to make peace with the Sunni's and the Shiite's. He could just hold a news conference, give a hearty "my bad" and everything should return to normal.

Oh hang on...no...that won't work.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Etienne, The tone of these Bush/ Iraq posts by our sassanach are at best predictable and at worst snide digs at America itself. As such, one's recourse is to ignore him, or return specious argument in kind. America did not author the Balfour Agreement, hold colonies, mandates or exclusive petroleum deals. The world today is shaped by decisions largely made by European colonialism, a philosophy sadly imported to this nation. That we somehow by default, stupidity, good intentions or proxy inherited, took on or stepped in for an exausted continent of squabbling royals related to Queen Victoria is a reality.You survive, because we sorted out your little mess in 1939 and then spent a half century checking the USSR on the global chessboard and giving you a measure of Pax Americana. Don't like it, didn't ask for it? Niether did the people who watched the Legions withdraw from the Rhine and Hadrian's Wall at the end of Pax Romana.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

*Be Thankful Etienne*

Etienne,

Today is Thanksgiving in L'Etas Unis so I would ask you to be thankful for "clumsy" American foreign policy. If it not for the US you and your cohorts would be minor functionaries in Vichy (like Mitterand!) or some bureaucrat in a Soviet dominated France - though the latter probably would not be too different from the modern Fifth Republic. Be thankful that in this unipolar world the US is the only superpower and know that France can always rely on us (and if you have you have a problem during August or are faire le pont to le weekend don't trouble yourself, we'll help you alone.) 
Karl


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Today is Thanksgiving in L'Etas Unis so I would ask you to be thankful for "clumsy" American foreign policy. If it not for the US you and your cohorts would be minor functionaries in Vichy (like Mitterand!) or some bureaucrat in a Soviet dominated France


I should celebrate Thanksgiving because you are doing it?

Anyway, I am indeed thankful for the US intervention in 1941-1945, and I won't even quabble, as a history buff could, about the reasons. And I am sure you are thankful for the French intervention in the war of Independence. But what does this have to do with Iraq? You seem to be acting under the misguided assumption that I was criticizing the US in general and from a historical point of view.

I was merely laughing a little. Come on, you have got to admit, blaming the current Iraq mess on the British colonial rule is a little like blaming Cuba's problems on the 1898 war, or on blaming Northern Ireland on Cromwell. Sure, there is a historical continuity, so what?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Etienne,

I believe General Pershing settled our bill with France when he said upon his arrival with the AEF, "Lafayette we are here." Consider your liberation from Nazi and Vichy tyranny and the nuclear umbrella we provided during the Cold War - force de frappe notwithstanding - on the house. 

Perhaps we cant blame France for Iraq (though you could make a case for French culpability) but what about Algeria? How many hundreds of thousands died bc of the state Algeria was left in when France lost it? Well at least Sarkozy apologized, sort of, last week. Perhaps when he is elected President he will make a full apology for French misdeeds in Africa. Maybe he will also stop putting flowers on Petain's gave as well. Incroyable!

But a Happy Thanksgiving to you, Etienne, anyway.

Karl


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Etienne,
> 
> I believe General Pershing settled our bill with France when he said upon his arrival with the AEF, "Lafayette we are here." Consider your liberation from Nazi and Vichy tyranny and the nuclear umbrella we provided during the Cold War - force de frappe notwithstanding - on the house.
> 
> ...


Karl:

So you're murdering animals to celebrate your gratitude, correct? Perhaps you shouldn't climb too high on your American morality horse.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Fogey,

Delicious. Both turkey and your increasingly inane posts.

Turkey for me, turkey for you, lets eat turkey in a big brown shoe as Adam Sandler used to sing.

Karl


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> I believe General Pershing settled our bill with France


I find that accountant mentality amazing.



> Perhaps we cant blame France for Iraq (though you could make a case for French culpability) but what about Algeria?


What about explaining why you jump from the topic at hand ("can you blame the current Iraq mess on "Europe" as one poster argued") into a rather different one ("what are the compared historical merits of France and the US on the global stage ?")? If I am not mistaken, it is not the first time you jump to that topic from whatever the discussion happens to be on. Why that obsession?

Do you really think anything I say is a general and broad criticism of the US role in global history that has to be countered by a discussion of France's role? It certainly seems so.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Firstly, I supported the invasion of Iraq at the time (although with a somewhat critical attitude). As things get out of hand, I think it is right to consider a change in paradigma (not policy itself).

However, THIS is really too much:



Kav said:


> Slip out one night en mass without telling our noble allies the brits. Leave Tony & Company holding the bag and responsible for cleaning up the mess created in pursuit of Empire and profit.


Guess who pushed this in the UK - exactly, the friendly American allies. Given their track record, however, the Britons might be better able than you to clean up the mess anyway.



Martinis at 8 said:


> The lesson here is that we don't go to war unless we are prepared to treat it as a "national" war. Nations go to war, not armies. In which case there are no innocent civilians. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not the job any military in any war.


Yeah, let's bin the Geneva convention. Can anybody explain to me why there is such a thing as a "war crime" if civilians are fair game?



Martinis at 8 said:


> Specifically, topple the regime, capture the leaders and give them a swift execution via military tribunal


I'm sure you would be happy to conduct some of those liquidations. How about a little mobile gallows? You could borrow some from Ahmadinejad, I suppose.



Martinis at 8 said:


> So, Sunnis and Shiites, have had it boys! Give war a chance.


"Please leave this bathroom as you would choose to find it."



queueball said:


> We can't blame the country we cajoled into coming along for the ride or the "Europeans." We meesed it up and need to take responsibility to fix it.


_Your_American politicians have supported Saddam a big deal during his career and then you decided to slaughter your little pig. I think you have slaughtered the wrong one (I would have taken on Iran), but anyway. Now it's just fair that you have to deal with it.



Kav said:


> America did not (...) hold colonies, mandates or exclusive petroleum deals. The world today is shaped by decisions largely made by European colonialism, a philosophy sadly imported to this nation.


And, apparently, you are quite happy to carry it on.


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## queueball (Jun 16, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Etienne,
> If it not for the US you and your cohorts would be minor functionaries in Vichy...
> Karl


Let's not forget that if it weren't for France in the Revolutionary war we'd all be speaking the Queen's English.

I am certainly not one to denounce or renounce the US - I am a staunch patriot and I am not a bleeding heart liberal. I am, however, a realist that works very hard to remain objective. The fact of the matter is that we went into Iraq. How anyone can try to pawn this off on other countries and the imperialism and/or colonialism we "inherited" from them is ridiculous. If that were the case Ted Bundy should blame Jack The Ripper for his killing spree.

This type of thinking seeks to shun our responsibility. We are responsible. We invaded Iraq. Not because we have blood lineage from Europe but for a myriad of other, and since disproven, reasons.

Where is our national responsibility?


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

queueball said:


> Let's not forget that if it weren't for France in the Revolutionary war we'd all be speaking the Queen's English.
> 
> I am certainly not one to denounce or renounce the US - I am a staunch patriot and I am not a bleeding heart liberal. I am, however, a realist that works very hard to remain objective. The fact of the matter is that we went into Iraq. *How anyone can try to pawn this off on other countries and the imperialism and/or colonialism we "inherited" from them is ridiculous.* If that were the case Ted Bundy should blame Jack The Ripper for his killing spree.
> 
> ...


Ridiculous is too nice a word, a more apt description would be paranoid delusion.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

queueball said:


> ...The fact of the matter is that we went into Iraq. How anyone can try to pawn this off on other countries and the imperialism and/or colonialism we "inherited" from them is ridiculous...
> 
> ...This type of thinking seeks to shun our responsibility. We are responsible. We invaded Iraq. Not because we have blood lineage from Europe but for a myriad of other, and since disproven, reasons.
> 
> Where is our national responsibility?


Nobody is shunning national responsibility, buddy-boy. And FYI, this isn't even a "national" war we are fighting.

The fact remains, however, that this whole abortion we call "The Middle East" is a European legacy that they have artfully dodged. Everything from the Israel situation and even as far as the India/Pakistan partition. Same for other regions of the world, like SE Asia being a complete French abortion. Korea I will lay at the feet of Japan however.

M8

P.S. I still like Option 3 the best. After all, you don't see any Carthaginians walking around these days. Do ya?


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> The lesson here is that we don't go to war unless we are prepared to treat it as a "national" war. Nations go to war, not armies. In which case there are no innocent civilians. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not the job any military in any war. Save that for the police.
> 
> M8


That's got to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. "...no innocent civilians"? Get a grip, pal. Your little "nations go to war, not armies" bit is a prime case of whiney semantics.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Connemara said:


> That's got to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. "...no innocent civilians"? Get a grip, pal. Your little "nations go to war, not armies" bit is a prime case of whiney semantics.


Maybe it's just the reader in this case with regards to the "dumb". Eh?

When wars are waged nilly-willy like this one, then you wind up with this kind of outcome, or a Vietnam type of outcome.

You need to get a grip. Read some history, and then connect the dots.

M8


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