# Syria



## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

Obama and the UN's inaction will be judged harshly.

Another case of not learning from history.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/selassie.htm

Let's hope we don't end up with a world war to follow.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

It's US inaction that's the real embarrassment. The UN was, is and shall forever remain a completely feckless organization. Something our current POTUS has failed to grasp over the past 8 years. 

This is what happens when a super power plays chicken and then blinks.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

What should the US have done? If the US had gotten involved directly, a world war, or at least a regional war, would have been much more likely.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

We've had a world war for the last 10 years! And now the line in the sand is somewhere north of Oklahoma City!


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

blue suede shoes said:


> What should the US have done? If the US had gotten involved directly, a world war, or at least a regional war, would have been much more likely.


We're already involved. And there's plenty that could have been done with minimal physical involvement.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

SG_67 said:


> We're already involved. And there's plenty that could have been done with minimal physical involvement.


Yes, and unfortunately we are on the wrong side.

Plenty? Such as?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

When Putin stepped in the US should have dropped several of its largest bombs on President Bashar Al-Assad. Set its foot down. Now it is a huge mess.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

There would not be a winner in this type of "war." It would be a protracted conflict that would cost trillions. You can't fight a religion and hope to win.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

It's more than about Syria. Opening up places for Putin to step into isn't good for anyone, including him. The world is a more dangerous place.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Any of you guys watch the video of The Syrians dancing and yelling "Allah Akbar" around mutilated corpses?


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

I disagree. For all the wring if hands and gnashing of teeth, Iraq is a democracy and is progressing well. It was doing far better when Obama first got into office, but it is still a much,much better place than it was pre invasion. 

We consider WW2 a success, right? But if you really look at it, it touched off the Korean War, Chinese Revolution, and Vietnam. Not to me tion the rape of Eastern Europe for 50 years and countless proxy wars.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

blue suede shoes said:


> Yes, and unfortunately we are on the wrong side.
> 
> Plenty? Such as?


No fly zones
UN peacekeepers 
Special Forces on the ground
Air strikes
NATO involvement
Outright invasion

Anything would be better than making big pronouncements and drawing red lines and then not backing them up.

If we aren't going to act in this situation, then we just need to tell the world that they are on their own and feel free to kill each other as they see fit.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

vpkozel said:


> ...we just need to tell the world that they are on their own and feel free to kill each other as they see fit.


But we need oil, man! We can't tap our own reserves. To not be dependent on another country's supply? Why that's un-American... :great:


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

vpkozel said:


> No fly zones
> UN peacekeepers
> Special Forces on the ground
> Air strikes
> ...


It's a fundamental misunderstanding and a childish worldview to assume that rhetoric and shame are sufficient tools of diplomacy.

There's not surer way to lose face and be discredited than to draw red lines and not do anything about it when said lines are crossed. All of that happened before the Russians entered the picture.

Now Vlad has made himself a player. Not bad for a second rate power.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

SG_67 said:


> . Now Vlad has made himself a player. Not bad for a second rate power.


He is real fine until he murders your family for no reason. Who is next? Blood thirsty does not make a good ruler. He is no different than organize crime, because that is what he is, and openly took over the government. How many people have disappeared? If it had real law and order it would be one of the most wealthy countries on earth. Thugs kill off advancements. Putin is not good for any country. Thuggery is a vice. He is a huge theif. If it is not your hard earned money guess it's OK, huh?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ So what? That's for the Russians to deal with. What he does within his own borders is his own business.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Apparently you don't know how thugs work. Probably the only way for them to get rid of him is a sharp shooter.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ So be it. We'll deal with the next guy. I really don't care how the Russian choose and then dispose of their leaders.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

WA said:


> Apparently you don't know how thugs work. Probably the only way for them to get rid of him is a sharp shooter.


Stalin was our ally and Putin is nothing compared to him.

And unless you want our president to be fair game, assassinations are totally off limits.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

The complicating problem with Syria, and most Middle Eastern states - which you don't really find as a feature in other parts of the world - is tribalism.

Even the greatest Western experts in Middle Eastern politics and history shake their heads in confusion when faced with Middle Eastern tribalism, which is simply beyond the ability of Western observers to track or map.

So it's essentially not possible for the US, or Russia, or NATO, or whomever to come to the Middle Eastern diplomatic table with a meaningful strategy, or with anything like a "fair resolution" and so on. Yes, it's terrible seeing stories of women, children and families suffering in Syria, but the notion of "we need to do something!" is at once uniquely arrogant and bound for ineffectualism, because it's simply flying blind when faced with the tribal complexities of the conflict.

I'm all for humanitarian intervention when it can be done with comprehension, planning, and meaningful goal-setting; absent that, the wisest course for any nation is to follow a realpolitik strategy of practical containment, and to augment that with humanitarian objectives IF that containment fails (as in the case of a refugee crisis).

So house, feed, and hospitalize the people who escape the war zone, but don't try to intervene *within* the warzone, except to counter Russian efforts to exploit the war for *their* benefit.

DH


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

Yeah, no other parts of the world - especially Europe - would ever have civil wars or commit attrocities against different ethnic or religious groups....

And complicated is never a good reason for inaction.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Wonder why so many people stay there. There are so many better places on this planet to live. The Europeans explored this planet. Few in the other races do.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

vpkozel said:


> Yeah, no other parts of the world - especially Europe - would ever have civil wars or commit attrocities against different ethnic or religious groups....
> 
> And complicated is never a good reason for inaction.


What do they have against us Americans?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

vpkozel said:


> Yeah, no other parts of the world - especially Europe - would ever have civil wars or commit attrocities against different ethnic or religious groups....
> 
> And complicated is never a good reason for inaction.


The RC were kinda brutal. Look at at all the other Christian groups they stomped out. Some of the early Protestants were ruthless to. There was a lot of anti New Testament being done by the "Church" in the Name of God.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

vpkozel said:


> Stalin was our ally and Putin is nothing compared to him.
> 
> And unless you want our president to be fair game, assassinations are totally off limits.


I meant Russians assassinating their own.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

WA said:


> The RC were kinda brutal. Look at at all the other Christian groups they stomped out. Some of the early Protestants were ruthless to. There was a lot of anti New Testament being done by the "Church" in the Name of God.


You don't have to go back nearly that far. There were massacres in Europe in the past 25 years.

Also notable is that the EU and US didn't do much then either.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

blue suede shoes said:


> What should the US have done? If the US had gotten involved directly, a world war, or at least a regional war, would have been much more likely.


The US has been involved directly.
Heavily involved.
ISIS are nothing but a US proxy who've gotten a little out of control, and the whole Syrian war was orchestrated by the US, Israel and the Saudis/Qataris.

Look up the Yinon Plan.
I's all in there.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Howard, what part of 'tribalism' do you not understand? Anyone outside the extended family that is the 'tribe' is suspicious and a potential enemy. They don't hate Americans any more than they hate each other. Read history. This has been going on for over four thousand years.


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## RightJohn (Dec 11, 2016)

Let's hope that the ceasefire everyone is talking about really comes into effect. It's utterly needed. Personally I wish the Kurds to become independent, they have suffered immensely at the hands of Arab and Turkish rulers.


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## ouinon (Jun 28, 2015)

WA said:


> Wonder why so many people stay there. There are so many better places on this planet to live. The Europeans explored this planet. Few in the other races do.


Yeah it truly is a head-scratcher...


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