# Here it comes...Ukraine, Crimea, Russia



## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

So here I am sitting and wondering what all the fuss is about. The Russians came into a place where there was likely going to great vioilence due to political disruption. Not a shot has been fired, no one is dead, the operation seems to have been a complete success. Peace in the region has been sustained and it is blocked off from illegtimate parties that might wish to cause disruption.

Unless I'm mistaken, it seems as if the Russians were invited there by the legitimate government of this independant part of the Ukraine. This was the only actual legitimate government in place in the "Ukraine" due to a violent coup/revolution by a couple thousand minorities taking place in Kiev. These "protesters", who hold only one side of the arguement, took the democratically elected government in Ukraine and replaced it with people that appear to hold membership in a racist, anti-semitic, and homophobic political party under the guise of being "pro-European". Let's not ignore the fact that this action is illegal uder International law (not to mention the Ukrainian constitution).

The Russians do have national interests in the area(Navy, Russian citzens, common border,etc.) all real and verifiable when compared to the Americans killing scores of women and children 1000s of miles from the U.S. border with drones (under the guise that they're trying to get "terrorists" or "enemy combatants"). Why is it that the U.S. can run around globally to cause murder and mayhem but the Russians shouldn't even protect the neighbors next door?

I do understand that the U.S. wanted Ukraine in its Pocket. How nice it would be to get rid of that naval base and set missles up right in Ukraine (does anyone remember the whole "let's put American missles & radar systems in Eastern Europe thing?). It would of course been a slap in the face of Putin, who is an "enemy" & "Bad Guy" (or at least a competant competitor). Did you see how fast we were there to offer $billions in U.S. aid to Ukraine if they went against the agreement with Russia (it must be nice to toss billions around like water).

I guess I can see why Europe is upset (other than its master the U.S. being upset). They feel rejected. They made an offer to bring Ukraine into their fold, but it turned out they were the lowest bidder ( why Europe even want another debt ridden country to support is beyond me...ooops.. to annoy the russians I suppose) and Russian made a better deal. Can you blame the Ukrainian government for taking the best deal? You wouldn't pay company x $2,000 for a suit you could buy for $1,000 at company z, would you?

Some classy moves by the new Ukrainian government...


Removing languages other than Ukrainian (while at least half the country speaks a language other than Ukrainian).
Ordering the arrest of a Naval officer that didn't recognize a governent formed counter to the Ukrainian constitution.
Freeing a political party member convicted of corruption.
Replacement of other legitimate government officials.

If 2'000 rioting & violent people (shooting police, molitov cocktails, etc) took over U.S. government buildings, would they give up their "democratic" process as easily? Is the U.S. Under control of the occupy people now? Perhaps they weren't violent enough? I guess they need to make a physical threat to politicians (and their families), drive them out of the area, and then they can claim themselves as valid? I would think there would be dead protestors everywhere under the U.S. definition of them being "terrorists" (but of course Kent State was just a "mistake" in the past. We're beyond that now, right folks? Right??)

Of course our Brit friends are right there with us. While I'm quite certain that the Brits never colonized anyone against their will, it does appear that tehy don't perhaps support protests as much as they're tring to make us believe. If memory serves correct, mostly non-violent protesters are still being rounded up, prosecuted, and jailed for their actions in London several years ago.

Perhaps everyone is jealous? When was the last time anyone outside of Russia actually succeeded in bringing peace duing a "peace keeping" mission? Other than a few small protests (which are being allowed and haven't involved violence), everyone seems able to carry on with life. The buildings , roads, bridges, and other parts of the infrastructue are intact. The elected government which was in power a month ago, is still in power. It seems that everything went well here. Sure Ukraine is crying & posturing but a military of 150'000 isn't too much of a worry to the Russians and it seems that they have the area well enough controled to avoid "trouble makers" from getting in and starting problems. I guess Europe and the U.S. would have prefered the minority coup to go full force? I guess this way the inevitable civil war could kill tens of thousands and toss everyone/everything into Kaos?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

If we play our cards right, this could be the big one!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

It's hotting up.

True to form, the American government believes itself to be the World Police and is interfering in the legitimate business of others.

Roll on World War III


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

I keep remembering how at the last Democrat convention, they plastered that huge image of the Russian Black Sea Fleet over the backdrop of the "tribute to vets." How ironic.

https://www.navytimes.com/article/20120911/NEWS/209110321/Russian-ships-displayed-DNC-tribute-vets


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Shaver said:


> It's hotting up.
> 
> True to form, the American government believes itself to be the World Police and is interfering in the legitimate business of others.
> 
> Roll on World War III


The way I see it, when we (US/NATO and Allies) fail to be the "World Police" the mafia takes over!!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> So here I am sitting and wondering what all the fuss is about.


If the Russians limit their short term objectives to securing their Naval base, nothing.

If they annex the Crimea or Ukraine itself, plenty!!


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

*Unless I'm mistaken, it seems as if the Russians were invited there by the legitimate government of this independant part of the Ukraine.*

As legitimate in government as Kermit the Frog of Charley McCarthy.

Im curious, exactly when did you hear this invitation?Certainly there must have been hundreds even thousands in the streets pleading for Russian protection, but I didnt see any of them, did you?

And in the same line of thinking it could be said the dear old uncle Joe did a great service to 20-30 million 'comrades', after all he did end their suffering. Even our old friend Adolph managed to free some millions of Jews from persecution, what a guy


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

WouldaShoulda said:


> The way I see it, when we (US/NATO and Allies) fail to be the "World Police" the mafia takes over!!


Oh, really? :icon_scratch:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

The American Industrial Military complex needs to get off its backside and escalate this situation.

Here's a little motivational music video - Killing is my business.......And killing is good!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Hitch said:


> *Unless I'm mistaken, it seems as if the Russians were invited there by the legitimate government of this independant part of the Ukraine.*
> 
> As legitimate in government as Kermit the Frog of Charley McCarthy.
> 
> ...


Might I enquire, Hitch: when you edited this post, shortly after submitting it, was your purpose to remove all vestiges of coherent thought? If so, well done - success is yours.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

As I don't see thousands of Mexicans in the street demanding U.S. intervention in their drug wars, I would take a wild guess that it was set up between the U.S. & Mexican governments. yikes, an agreement between governments without the public calling for it in protest form? what's the world coming to? 

Ukraine suffered a bloody revolution. It's legitimate leaders were under threat & had to flee the area. This makes them no less legit. If the president of Ukraine asks for help (& a letter stating this exists even if Kerry doesn"t accept it), then the russians were invited. furthermore, Crimea has had an independant government of its own. As big brother Ukraine was in the middle of a bloody coup &had an illegal government set up, Crimea is no longer under no obligation to follow what is coming out of Kiev. In fact, it is illegal in its own right to support those breaking international law. The only surviving legitimate goverment in Ukraine, that in Crimea, asked the Russians for help protecting the peace. This they did by government agreement & unlike the situation in Kiev, there are no protesters rioting,tossing molitov cocktails, & shooting/killing people to make their political point.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Oh, really? :icon_scratch:


Speaking figuratively, of course. 

Isn't it curious that Putin says he will end subsidies to Ukrainian natural gas prices, the EU and US rush in with aid to offset the higher prices Putin and his crowd will now collect??

Looks like the bully Putin pushed us down, stole our lunch money and dares anyone to do anything about it!!


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Its pretty simple and does come with a fair amount of historical precedence, which is to say standard leftist newspeak; legitimate government = Russian (Soviet) installed puppet.

Ukraine should have kept her nukes.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Speaking figuratively, of course.
> 
> Isn't it curious that Putin says he will end subsidies to Ukrainian natural gas prices, the EU and US rush in with aid to offset the higher prices Putin and his crowd will now collect??
> 
> Looks like the bully Putin pushed us down, stole our lunch money and dares anyone to do anything about it!!


 Ever wonder if this was part of the 'deal' Obo was caught talking about for after the election?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Hitch said:


> Its pretty simple and does come with a fair amount of historical precedence, which is to say standard leftist newspeak; legitimate government = Russian (Soviet) installed puppet.
> 
> Ukraine should have kept her nukes.


Now, now Hitch - ignorant, ill-educated, neo-nazis, have taken control of Kiev. Take a look at the profile of the transitional government's Secretary of Security and National Defense Committee. Do you *really* wish that they had access to thermo-nuclear capability?

It's Doomsday!


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Now, now Hitch - ignorant, ill-educated, neo-nazis, have taken control of Kiev. Take a look at the profile of the transitional government's Secretary of Security and National Defense Committee. Do you *really* wish that they had access to thermo-nuclear capability?
> 
> It's Doomsday!


Oh come now Shaver, if Ukraine still had nukes we wouldn't have to worry about the Russians controling Crimea. In fact, everyone but the Russians (and Chinese) would be more than happy to have the peninsula blown off the map. Russia without military & economic might is a Russia that might just be willing to start trading oïl for food. The lives of a few million Ukrainians is hardly worth a second thought compared to the possibility of global domination by one of the "super powers". Economically, socially, politically, militarily..Domination is domination. While I'm not a fan of Russian and Chinese politics, I am happy that they are there to balance out the U.S., Europe, and their "allies". I personally don't agree with much of any political agenda that exists today.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Oh. By the way... You've had a bit of a row over Pink Floyd and Roger Waters (in past posts), but I doubt you can deny the appropriateness of such songs as "the bravery of being out of range" in such circumstances.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

justonemore said:


> Oh. By the way... You've have a bit of a row over Pink Floyd and Roger Waters (in past posts), but I doubt you can deny the appropriateness of such songs as "the bravery of being out of range" in such circumstances.


Pink Floyd? Bah! Pseudo intellectual 'music' for emotionally underdeveloped bedroom-dwelling teenage boys, who occasionally in their cannabis hazed adulthood persist in the habit.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Pink Floyd? Bah! Pseudo intellectual 'music' for emotionally underdeveloped bedroom-dwelling teenage boys, who occasionally in their cannabis hazed adulthood persist in the habit.


Ahh, Shaver. If anyone can bastardize a point, I give full credit to you. Unfortunate that the point itself may be missed in your disdain. The lyrics "you strafe and maim with the bravery of being out of range", no matter how mundane, are indeed once again representative of the U.S. and Western European attitudes in this case. What does some conservative idiot in bumble Iowa know or care about Ukraine? Other than it may go to the Russians? It's obviously much better to use force than it is to lose control (or whatever the perception of control is). If Floyd are capable of instilling even a bit of morality in the world, I'd argue that their "Pseudo intellectual 'music' for emotionally underdeveloped bedroom-dwelling teenage boys, who occasionally in their cannabis hazed adulthood persist in the habit" may serve a better purpose than the works of Wagner (although I much prefer Wagner to Floyd). Millions of Floyd fans pushing peace are better than a few thousand Wagner fans that have misinterpreted the meanings of his work.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

justonemore said:


> Ahh, Shaver. *If anyone can bastardize a point, I give full credit to you.* Unfortunate that the point itself may be missed in your disdain. The lyrics "you strafe and maim with the bravery of being out of range", no matter how mundane, are indeed once again representative of the U.S. and Western European attitudes in this case. What does some conservative idiot in bumble Iowa know or care about Ukraine? Other than it may go to the Russians? It's obviously much better to use force than it is to lose control (or whatever the perception of control is).


Why, thank you. That has made my day. 

Give me five to see if I can 'google' and upload my favourite parody of American foreign policy........


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Ah, here we go:


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Ah, here we go:


Well put.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

justonemore said:


> ... if Ukraine still had nukes we wouldn't have to worry about the Russians controling Crimea.


I couldn't care less whether Russia controls Crimea.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

It seems the 'nukes for secure borders' deal has fallen down the memory hole.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> While I'm not a fan of Russian and Chinese politics, I am happy that they are there to balance out the U.S., Europe, and their "allies". I personally don't agree with much of any political agenda that exists today.


How very neutral of you.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> What does some conservative idiot in bumble Iowa know or care about Ukraine? Other than it may go to the Russians? It's obviously much better to use force than it is to lose control (or whatever the perception of control is).


Do you have a link to anyone in the serious political sphere advocating use of force against Russia in this case??

I haven't seen any reports of such.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Do you have a link to anyone in the serious political sphere advocating use of force against Russia in this case??
> 
> I haven't seen any reports of such.


Nor has there been a threat to Ukraine itself. If the Russians started pushing into Kiev, I would be willing to bet that my statement would hold true. Do you picture a situation where Nato troops wouldn't be deployed along the border of Poland and everywhere else that might hold strategic interest. Although I'm no global strategist, I stand by my statement. Threats of force, if not force itself would be used if it came down to losing control of Ukraine to the Russians.

You only have to look at the rhetoric coming out of conservative camps. Good ole McCaine always seems to want to make certain he's not the last generation of war heros.

The domocrats are no better & While I haven't seen much in the way of threats of force, you know things aren't going well when the Obama camp has actually taken to name calling by publishing "The top 10 lies of Putin".


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

justonemore said:


> Nor has there been threat to Ukraine itself. If the Russians started pushing into Kiev, I would be willing to bet that my statement would hold true. You only have to look at the rhetoric coming out of conservative camps. Good ole McCaine always seems to want to make certain he's not the last generation of war heros. While I haven't seen much in the way of threats of force, you know things aren't going well when the Obama camp has actually taken to name calling by publishing "The top 10 lies of Putin".


Putin is an interesting fellow. He actually reminds me of my father's generation of American men. Serious to the point of being sullen. Patriotic. Intelligent. Hard-working. Rapier sharp wit that he keeps locked up. On occasion, slyly playful without admitting anything. Ambitious. Willing to be photographed in silly macho settings. Where my aviator-sunglassed topless father might pose like a muscle man on the beach, Putin does the same thing, but instead of the beach, he kicks it up a notch by sporting a high-powered rifle while on horseback.

If Putin weren't a damn Ruskie bent on the destruction of all we hold dear, my dad's generation might have welcomed him into the VFW post with no questions asked.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Putin is an interesting fellow. He actually reminds me of my father's generation of American men. Serious to the point of being sullen. Patriotic. Intelligent. Hard-working. Rapier sharp wit that he keeps locked up. On occasion, slyly playful without admitting anything. Ambitious. Willing to be photographed in silly macho settings. Where my aviator-sunglassed topless father might pose like a muscle man on the beach, Putin does the same thing, but instead of the beach, he kicks it up a notch by sporting a high-powered rifle while on horseback.
> 
> If Putin weren't a damn Ruskie bent on the destruction of all we hold dear, my dad's generation might have welcomed him into the VFW post with no questions asked.


I'd say that's a pretty accurate description. I would probably trust the guy more than any American politician. Sure he'd screw you but at least it seems that he'd be much more straight forward when doing so.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> ...you know things aren't going well when the Obama camp has actually taken to name calling by publishing "The top 10 lies of Putin".


Oh, I see.

That conservative idiot in bumble Iowa!!


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Oh, I see.
> 
> That conservative idiot in bumble Iowa!!


Cut Mr Swisster some slack. Most East Coasters (erroneously) think the same thing.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Oh, I see.
> 
> That conservative idiot in bumble Iowa!!


I think I listed McCaine as well. I was trying to be balanced & show that both the democrats and republicans are guilty of rhetoric wars. Nor was I directly referencing my previous post when mentioning the white house. Many apologies for you having misunderstood. I'll try to make my posts a bit clearer from now on. While the conservative idiots out of bumble are outdoing the democrats with the rhetoric, the democrats are far from bystanders.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Cut Mr Swisster some slack. Most East Coasters (erroneously) think the same thing.


I thought the America's image would be restored when Obama took over.

I had hoped for change.

Now I have only disappointment!!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> I think I listed McCaine as well. I was trying to be balanced & show that both the democrats and republicans are guilty of rhetoric wars. Nor was I directly referencing my previous post when mentioning the white house. Many apologies for you having misunderstood. I'll try to make my posts a bit clearer from now on. While the conservative idiots out of bumble are outdoing the democrats with the rhetoric, the democrats are far from bystanders.


Just for clarity, you appear to be accusing both Democrats and Republicans of the same rhotorical malfeasence, yet you describe one as bumbling or idiotic, and the other lacks such colorful and derogatory comments.

You do not appear to be as fair and neutral, or free from prejudice as you think you are.

Do you??


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

My apologies. In case you somehow missed it these past 7 years, I will once again state that I have complete & utter disdain for both major political parties in the U.S. No matter their political affilation, just viewing an American politician often leaves me with the feeling I need to shower, that somehow even a picture has allowed their greasy sliminess to be transfered to me. As such, I would be more than happy to use bumbling, idiotic, and many many other colorful words when refering to the democrats as well.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I thought the America's image would be restored when Obama took over.
> 
> I had hoped for change.
> 
> Now I have only disappointment!!


I'm sorry to hear that you got taken in by the whole Hollywood side of politics. The only chance of any real change will come when all the politicians are hung by their necks & the people have taken back power from all the special interests that have corrupted the U.S. system.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Do you have a link to anyone in the serious political sphere advocating use of force against Russia in this case??
> 
> I haven't seen any reports of such.


This just in... The U.S. is holding large scale Air force drills in Poland in relation to the situation in Ukraine. Clearly a show of force. Some might even say a threat of force. Is the Pentagon part of a serious enough political sphere? I understand that threat of force isn't actually the use of force but it would seem to show that someone has advocated the possibility at least.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

It seems that Crimea will now hold a vote as to their independence from Ukraine. The U.S. is against the idea & this speaks volumes as to their respect for the population deciding what is best for them. A bloody coup in Ukraine staged by opposition members that didn't want to lose (again) at the polls is fine... A free vote of the people... That's just not acceptable.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

justonemore said:


> It seems that Crimea will now hold a vote as to their independence from Ukraine. The U.S. is against the idea & this speaks volumes as to their respect for the population deciding what is best for them. A bloody coup in Ukraine staged by opposition members that didn't want to lose (again) at the polls is fine... A free vote of the people... That's just not acceptable.


Quite. Free votes for the people only count if the vote goes the right way. We of the West certainly don't regard the free election that returned a Hamas government to Gaza to be a valid expression of popular democracy, nor did the US accept the free vote in Chile that brought Allende to power, preferring the neo-fascist, or perhaps, neo-falangist, Pinochet.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Interesting development.....
https://gcaptain.com/russian-warship-sunk-crimea/


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

"It's an obvious Commie trick, Mr. President. We are wasting valuable time! Look at the big board, they're getting ready to clobber us!"










U.S bombs cruisin' overhead!


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Chouan said:


> Interesting development.....
> https://gcaptain.com/russian-warship-sunk-crimea/


Smart move with all the posturing the rebels in Kiev have been doing. Could you imagine the problems we'd be facing if a Ukrainian ship got out and started playing wargames with the big boys?

I'm not quite sure of the definition of "warship" but the thing in the photo appears to be more of a cargo ship than anything one would take into battle but I guess warship has a certain sinister ring to it versus cargoship.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> This just in... *The U.S. is holding large scale Air force drills in Poland *in relation to the situation in Ukraine. Clearly a show of force. Some might even say a threat of force. Is the Pentagon part of a serious enough political sphere? I understand that threat of force isn't actually the use of force but it would seem to show that someone has advocated the possibility at least.


I'm looking for corroboration.

Links, that is!!

(Reuters) - *The U.S. military will send 12 F-16 fighter jets and 300 service personnel to Poland *next week for a training exercise whose scope was expanded in response to the crisis in neighbouring Ukraine, Poland's defence minister said on Thursday.

You call that "large scale Air force drills??"

Yeah, I guess YOU would!!

Swiss jets not scrambled over hijacked plane because 'airbases closed at night'

https://rt.com/news/swiss-fighters-office-hours-514/

An incident with a highjacked Ethiopian passenger jet has exposed the Swiss Air Force's inability to deal with threats in 'off-duty' hours. An emergency escort to the aircraft in distress was carried out by vigilant colleagues from Italy and France.
Early on Monday morning, an Ethiopian Airlines co-pilot told ground control he had highjacked flight ET-702 from Addis Ababa to Rome and was going to land in Geneva. The Swiss Air Force was caught off guard and missed a rare opportunity to go on a real mission. *It turned out that they were unable to scramble any jets because they only work during office hours! 
*_"Switzerland cannot intervene because its airbases are closed at night and on the weekend,"_ Swiss Air Force spokesman, Laurent Savary, commented to AFP later on, adding that it is _"a question of budget and staffing."_ 
According to Laurent Savary, the Swiss Air Force operates during office hours only, specifically from 8am until a lunch break at noon. A return to cockpits happens at 1:30 pm and they watch over Switzerland's skies until 5pm. 
When the Boeing 767-300 with 202 passengers, highjacked by 31-year-old co-pilot Hailemedehin Abera Tagegn got to Europe, it was still too early for the Swiss pilots to gear up for the urgent mission.

:thumbs-up:


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> Smart move with all the posturing the rebels in Kiev have been doing. Could you imagine the problems we'd be facing if a Ukrainian ship got out and started playing wargames with the big boys?
> 
> I'm not quite sure of the definition of "warship" but the thing in the photo appears to be more of a cargo ship than anything one would take into battle but I guess warship has a certain sinister ring to it versus cargoship.


Article~



> The Ukrainian Ministry of Defense released the above image today showing the Russian Navy's Ochakov, a Kara-class cruiser, which was intentionally sunk last night to blockade the Ukrainian Navy ships located in Novoozerne.


For the record.

Deplying 12 planes to Poland is an agressive act.

Blockading Ukraine Naval vesells is not an agressive act??


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
"Deploying 12 planes to Poland is an aggressive act." ??? I don't think so, but deploying a single plane from Missouri to drop up to 80 independently targeted 500 pound conventional bombs on the invading Russian forces. Now that is both very plausible and would certainly be aggressive, but would also could prove very therapeutic in working off our anger issues with Putin.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Article~
> 
> For the record.
> 
> ...


you asked for examples where force was being discussed/considered by the U.S. I came up with one. I made no judgement as to levels of agression (nor had you asked me to compare aggression levels in the sinking of a ship to 12 aircraft). That the Russians have acted aggressively wasn't much in debate. We can see were they are and what they have done. You seemed to question any thought of force out of the U.S. If you don't consider placing aircraft (2,12, or 100) as a show of force, you're more than entitled to your opinion.

I do somewhat wonder if you're not purposely misreading my statements or just plain hallucinating words that aren't there.

I also have to Wonder what Switzerland has to do with the thread. No one here will ever admit to being a military superpower, nor do we want to. Our education is better. Our health system is better. We have a direct democracy. Our economy is better. We constantly score among the highest ranking concerning satifaction of life. Less crime. Less unemployment. Higher rates of pay. Mandatory paid vacations and holidays. Geesh. I guess I can go on but you're right, there was a distressed plane once and heck, I feel so bad we couldn't scramble 50 fighters.

Oh by the way?? What good does it do to scramble fighter jets over populated areas when the highjacker wants to come down without violence? Were the police there to arrest the guy or were they sleeping too?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> you asked for examples where force was being discussed/considered. I came up with one. I made no judgement as to levels of agression. Are you purposely misreading my statements or just plain hallucinating words that aren't there?


Oh, sure, that's it!!

When you said "Smart move with all the posturing the rebels in Kiev have been doing. Could you imagine the problems we'd be facing if a Ukrainian ship got out and started playing wargames with the big boys?" I thought you were deminishing the Russian agression, and when you said "The U.S. is holding large scale Air force drills in Poland" I thought you were emphasizing and exaggerating the US and Ally response.

But it was all in my mind.

You made no judgements whatsoever.

I was hallucinating.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Oh, sure, that's it!!
> 
> When you said "Smart move with all the posturing the rebels in Kiev have been doing. Could you imagine the problems we'd be facing if a Ukrainian ship got out and started playing wargames with the big boys?" I thought you were deminishing the Russian agression, and when you said "The U.S. is holding large scale Air force drills in Poland" I thought you were emphasizing and exaggerating the US and Ally response.
> 
> ...


Indeed. Just like imagining that I didn't know the difference between republicans and democrats. As long as we're making judgments.. What's worse, sinking a ship and killing no one, or hiring snipers to kill both sides in an arguement in order to bring about a forceful revolution?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> "Deploying 12 planes to Poland is an aggressive act." ??? I don't think so, but deploying a single plane from Missouri to drop up to 80 independently targeted 500 pound conventional bombs on the invading Russian forces. Now that is both very plausible and would certainly be aggressive, but would also could prove very therapeutic in working off our anger issues with Putin.


You remind me of this guy;






I like him.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Oh, sure, that's it!!
> 
> When you said "Smart move with all the posturing the rebels in Kiev have been doing. Could you imagine the problems we'd be facing if a Ukrainian ship got out and started playing wargames with the big boys?" I thought you were deminishing the Russian agression, and when you said "The U.S. is holding large scale Air force drills in Poland" I thought you were emphasizing and exaggerating the US and Ally response.
> 
> ...


I also doubt I was diminishing much when I stated that it would be better to keep the Ukraine military out of it. Where the Americans & Russians will most likely make calculated moves, I doubt the new Ukrainian governement is well versed in global warfare. I suppose you'd like it better if a Ukrainian ship got out & fired on a Russian vessel? I guess you'd have plenty of the bloodshed & what's even more fun, everyone would have a reason to get involved further militarily.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> "Deploying 12 planes to Poland is an aggressive act." ??? I don't think so, but deploying a single plane from Missouri to drop up to 80 independently targeted 500 pound conventional bombs on the invading Russian forces. Now that is both very plausible and would certainly be aggressive, but would also could prove very therapeutic in working off our anger issues with Putin.


What a lovely suggestion. Have you seen the close up damage these things do? These are smart bombs right? They'd only hit the Russians and Ukrainian Putin supporters? I would hope that such a devastating sounding weapon wouldn't be used if it could maime and kill women/children/bystanders. I'm sure U.S. intel is much better and the past mistakes of drone bombing women and children are a thing of the past (at least we could work out our anger issues with those "terrorist" children). Americans like their women and children too, don't they? But perhaps you're right, use the bombs, what is the blood of little children? Better they sacrifice for U.S. ideals now than live in a world controled by Russia tomorrow, right? Heck, we'll all sleep better at night if we just call them "collateral damage" instead of facing up to what they really are (disintegrated and maimed children). How did that old verse go for U.S. bayonet training? "Platoon. What makes the grass grow green?" "Blood. Blood. Blood. Drill sergeant". So here's to using 80 independently targeted 500 pound conventional bombs. Cheers. What a great response to a bloodless intervention that was invited.. Much a case of "the cure being worse than the illness".

All this over a small area on the map that has asked to no longer be part of the kaos that is Kiev (oh and American "pride" of course). But what could one expect of a group that uses a bastardized version of... _Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius..._as one of their main (unofficial) mottos.

https://imageshack.com/i/mjs1i3jhttps://imageshack.com/i/nhmofcp

This cute saying was actually coined back in 1209 and was stated by a catholic monk in the moments leading up to a massacre of 20'000 men, women, and children. In a bit of irony, the Americans actuallly stole/borrowed/adopted this saying from a Frenchman (one of those cheese eating surrender monkeys).


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> Indeed. Just like imagining that I didn't know the difference between republicans and democrats.
> 
> As long as we're making judgments.. What's worse, sinking a ship and killing no one, or hiring snipers to kill both sides in an arguement in order to bring about a forceful revolution?


1) No, I pointed out how you characterized one but not both parties as unsophisticated for the same action. You didn't add nuance to that mischaracterization until you were called on it.

2) If you continue to make assertions without attributing a responsible news source, I will turn off your microphone!!


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'm looking for corroboration.
> 
> Links, that is!!
> 
> ...


Oh. The term "Large Scale" was from Reuters (the same source you used), I didn't make it up myself...

"The Pentagon meanwhile announced a large-scale air force exercise in Poland which Washington's ambassador to Warsaw said had been augmented to reassure U.S. allies in the region in the light of the Ukraine crisis."

11 paragraphs down....

There was no mention as to amount of aircraft but I would agree that 12 isn't very many compared to the thousands in service.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> 2) If you continue to make assertions without attributing a responsible news source, I will turn off your microphone!!


Hmm... Is this a worse crime than bringing superfluous information about the Swiss Airforce into the debate? :icon_scratch:


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> Oh. The term "Large Scale" was from Reuters (the same source you used), I didn't make it up myself...


Don't get me started with how biased they are!!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

justonemore said:


> What a lovely suggestion. Have you seen the close up damage these things do? These are smart bombs right? They'd only hit the Russians and Ukrainian Putin supporters? I would hope that such a devastating sounding weapon wouldn't be used if it could maime and kill women/children/bystanders. I'm sure U.S. intel is much better and the past mistakes of drone bombing women and children are a thing of the past (at least we could work out our anger issues with those "terrorist" children). Americans like their women and children too, don't they? But perhaps you're right, use the bombs, what is the blood of little children? Better they sacrifice for U.S. ideals now than live in a world controled by Russia tomorrow, right? Heck, we'll all sleep better at night if we just call them "collateral damage" instead of facing up to what they really are (disintegrated and maimed children). How did that old verse go for U.S. bayonet training? "Platoon. What makes the grass grow green?" "Blood. Blood. Blood. Drill sergeant". So here's to using 80 independently targeted 500 pound conventional bombs. Cheers. What a great response to a bloodless intervention that was invited.. Much a case of "the cure being worse than the illness".
> 
> All this over a small area on the map that has asked to no longer be part of the kaos that is Kiev (oh and American "pride" of course). But what could one expect of a group that uses a bastardized version of... _Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius..._as one of their main (unofficial) mottos.
> 
> ...


You are misreading the intent of my comment(s) that you quote. I was simply illustrating the absurdity of considering the deployment of 12 aircraft to quell the nerves of our NATO allies as an aggressive act. As for the weapons/weapon systems I was referring to in my suggestion of what would constitute an aggressive act, yes, I was referring to the deployment of a single stealth bomber delivering a full load of 500 pound smart bombs against the invading Russian forces. As to your assertions of brutality, yes warfare is brutal. In an earlier period of my life, well back in the last century actually, I was paid to put iron on targets and subsequently (several years later) assigned to pull a total 408 alert tours in a Minuteman II launch control center, with our nuclear cross hairs centered on the nuclear armed enemies of my Country. Prior to every one of those long past missions/alert tours, I prayed that I would not have to launch those missiles, but if ordered to do so, I certainly would have carried out those orders to the best of my ability. So yes, my friend, I am acutely aware of and sensitive to collateral damage/casualties. However, your assumptions about the extreme numbers of innocent victims of the use of such weapons is misplaced. As the targeting of our warheads becomes more precise, unintended collateral damage is correspondingly reduced.

I am very proud of my military service and would without hesitation return to active service if asked to do so. Furthermore, your scurrilous comments regarding America's leadership offends me, although oddly, I also do not hold a number of those players in very high regard. However, Russia's President Putin is a very dangerous and arguably evil man. We would all be woefully misguided to underestimate him or to ignore his actions in this or any future incidents!


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> You are misreading the intent of my comment(s) that you quote. I was simply illustrating the absurdity of considering the deployment of 12 aircraft to quell the nerves of our NATO allies as an aggressive act. As for the weapons/weapon systems I was referring to in my suggestion of what would constitute an aggressive act, yes, I was referring to the deployment of a single stealth bomber delivering a full load of 500 pound smart bombs against the invading Russian forces. As to your assertions of brutality, yes warfare is brutal. In an earlier period of my life, well back in the last century actually, I was paid to put iron on targets and subsequently (several years later) assigned to pull a total 408 alert tours in a Minuteman II launch control center, with our nuclear cross hairs centered on the nuclear armed enemies of my Country. Prior to every one of those long past missions/alert tours, I prayed that I would not have to launch those missiles, but if ordered to do so, I certainly would have carried out those orders to the best of my ability. So yes, my friend, I am acutely aware of and sensitive to collateral damage/casualties. However, your assumptions about the extreme numbers of innocent victims of the use of such weapons is misplaced. As the targeting of our warheads becomes more precise, unintended collateral damage is correspondingly reduced.
> 
> I am very proud of my military service and would without hesitation return to active service if asked to do so. Furthermore, your scurrilous comments regarding America's leadership offends me, although oddly, I also do not hold a number of those players in very high regard. However, Russia's President Putin is a very dangerous and arguably evil man. We would all be woefully misguided to underestimate him or to ignore his actions in this or any future incidents!


How unfortunate that my comments about u.s. "leaders" were seen as offensive versus realistic. Sadly, my belief is that Americans don't have leaders, they (should) have representatives.

A republican or democrat in the pockets of israel represents israel & not their constituants. This is plainly seen with all the welfare checks & arms we send them. They then repay the politicians by investing these same u.s. taxpayer dollars into lobbying for more weapons, money, and "special friend" status (strange that the majority of the world doesn't quite agree with Israel doing whatever it likes). Insurance lobby. old age lobby. nra lobby. weapons lobby. oil lobby. They're all well represented by u.s. politicians. Who is representing the people if the politicians are too busy being bought off or trying to "lead".

I have asked twice to renounce my citizenship. This was refused both times. As I am apparently owned by the u.s.(ownership of people is only against the law for individuals and businesses it seems, there is no divorcing the U.S. and its government unless it's under their terms), I will take every opportunity to voice my displeasure with what I find disgusting and wrong about the place. You have every right to be proud of & defend such politicians, I won't. If I'm forced to accept these people as "leaders" (they sure don't represent me), then I will do my best to state that I believe thier path is a false one when I believe it to be a false one.

Other than military strength and business rights, can you point out what advantages the U.S. holds compared to many other nations in the "developed world" ? What about the U.S. demands any type of loyalty compared to say a country like Norway?


If we're so great, why do we have the highest percentage of our population in jail? Is it all that freedom we hear so much about? Is the U.S. really just a bunch of criminals? Or is it tight fisted laws that make just about anything illegal at the discretion of the officer on the scene?
Why do we place so poorly in matters of education, médicine, unemployment, etc.? Is it perhaps because we spend an idiotic amount of money and other resources on the military? I can see keeping up and surpassing the competition, but when is enough, enough?
Do you have any type of workers rights in the U.S.? Doesn't much of the population work without a contract? It's mostly "at will" right? Do your workers have a right to paid vacation? Holidays? No? Who's representing them? Surely they must have voted on such issues (the Swiss do).
It's nice that you're finally starting to catch up with the civilized world in health care. Quite something leaving your fellow Americans on the street to die. Boo hoo. You ask people to give up their children to go to war but don't want to pay another $20 in taxes to help a fellow citizen stay alive.
When was the last time the U.S. held a public referendum versus having a law passed by one political party or the other? Didn't Bush even come out & admit that he wasn't interested in U.S. public opinion on issues? If everyone was against a military campaign, he would go ahead on personal "morals"?

I won't deny that the U.S. has done some great things in its short history but at this point its really just riding on its laurels while ignoring the international law that it often says it believes in. The U.S. has been the main international agressor the past 20 years. I'm aware that Russia was a bad guy 40 years ago. How many more years before we can question whether or not we're becoming worse than the bad guy? If Russia doesn't kill anyone for 50 years and we've killed 500'000, are we still the "good guy"? I'm sure you blame Russia for putting missles in Cuba but ignore the facts that the U.S. put missles in Turkey first. Wasn't it the Americans that just wanted to place missles & radar in Eastern European countries bordering Russia? Who's the agressor? What about the whole putting weapons in space thing.. That was the U.S. wasn't it? Under Reagan? Star Wars?

Add into that U.S. operations in the past 15 years outnumber russian interventions 10-1, have killed over 200'000 civilians compared to less than 1'000 combatant deaths from russian operations(wikipedia). Out of the top 10 most financed militaries, the U.S. is number 1 and outspends the other 9 COMBINED. U.S. operations not only kill thousands of civilians but leave the infrastructure in shambles. u.s. intervention has been so effective that 10-15 years later there is rampant violence that didn't exist before the intervention.

I'll state again that I'm no fan of Russia but looking at recent figures it's really hard to make them out to be the boogey man when compared to what the U.S. considers proper. You ask for a belief in a system but show no reason for the belief. It's like religion.... believe, belive, believe...and also like religion, you lack the miracles that provide proof. why does wikepedia list 112 U S. wars since its inception in 1776?Hard to believe we're the good guys. What ever happened to the old saying "lead by example" (russia's war involvement in the same time frame is about half & China has been in only 9 since 1927).

When I was being raised one associated torture & secret prisons with the russians (or nazis), this was something the bad guys do. Oh wait. Now that the u.s. is caught it"s ok? Keeping prisoners without trial? Wasn't this a commie thing to do as well? Ordering air strikes on your citizens without a trial? Again commie, right? Spying on your own citizens..Commie thing. No Knock warrants? Commie thing.

What is the difference between what we have become and what we were against? I would love to believe we're the good guy but to do so would be borderline delusional.

I too proudly served in the military. My impressions of the U.S. afterwards lead me believe that the government was unworthy of my sacrifice. I justify the time spent only by believing that I served my fellow Americans. I would not serve if asked to come back. Needless to say, I find no reason to be loyal to a government that is unloyal to its constituants.

All this being said, while I despise the government, I still love my country & my countrymen.I would love to see the U.S. get back on track. Stop being the world bully, get your own house in order, become number 1 at something if you want to claim you're the best. Start living and providing the world proof that you have a right to ask to have your morals instilled globally.

Oh. and none of this is meant as a jab at you personally. You have your beliefs & I respect that (I don't have to respect all of your viewpoints however).

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

"Would those who can't hit the nail on the head please refrain from hitting the nail at all?"

Freiedrich Nietzsche


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Post removed....


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Odd how its always in style ,somewhere, to kiss some Russian's ass.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Hitch said:


> Odd how its always in style ,somewhere, to kiss some Russian's ass.


Odd how it's always in style, somewhere, to deny statistics. Leave Russia out of it.. How many foreign operations has the U.S./NATO embarked on in the last 15 years compared to any other country/political association? Who has killed the most amount of civilians in the past 15 years? Who spends the most to bolster their military might? Go global... The answer may spook you but the numbers don't lie. The heros have killed and maimed more and more often. In order to do what? Spread their ideals of peace & equality around the globe?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Justonemore: As with so many of your past postings, you overgeneralize to the point that it is just not worth the level of effort it would take to respond to lo, the infinite nuances of insult and over statement incorporated in your rants. Yes, the United States, as does every Nation, has it's fair share of ills, but if circumstances were as dire and exaggerated as you allege, why are so many from other countries beating on our doors to come to the United States and participate in the American Dream. How many are beating down the doors, overcoming obstacles to relocate to and/or become citizens of Russia or any other of the Nation states that make up this increasing polluted world of ours. As bad as you may think the US to be, you have followed a very questionable path to addressing Her ills in any positive or constructive way. Rather, you choose to sit way off in the cheap seats and toss your cyber hand grenades at the United States. That's your choice and God bless you for it, but for me, I choose to do as was voiced by the late, great General Daniel (Chappie) James, and "hold Her hand and comfort Her, as we treat the symptoms of those ills!" I find more constructive approach is to work to fix things from within.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> Justonemore: As with so many of your past postings, you overgeneralize to the point that it is just not worth the level of effort it would take to respond to lo, the infinite nuances of insult and over statement incorporated in your rants. Yes, the United States, as does every Nation, has it's fair share of ills, but if circumstances were as dire and exaggerated as you allege, why are so many from other countries beating on our doors to come to the United States and participate in the American Dream. How many are beating down the doors, overcoming obstacles to relocate to and/or become citizens of Russia or any other of the Nation states that make up this increasing polluted world of ours. As bad as you may think the US to be, you have followed a very questionable path to addressing Her ills in any positive or constructive way. Rather, you choose to sit way off in the cheap seats and toss your cyber hand grenades at the United States. That's your choice and God bless you for it, but for me, I choose to do as was voiced by the late, great General Daniel (Chappie) James, and "hold Her hand and comfort Her, as we treat the symptoms of those ills!" I find more constructive approach is to work to fix things from within.


Odd. According to the U.N. Russia has the second highest immigration rate (right after the U.S.). As such, I'd guess that a lot of people don't find as many detractors with Russia as you do. This is just total numbers only, there are many many countries with a higher percentage of immigrants in their population than the U.S.

What method can you recommend for addressing the ills of the United States from within? In a positive, constructive way, that also promotes real change? As an example, if I wanted to eminate outsider interests in campaign finance, would I be able to do so? It seems the supreme court has already ruled it legal and the politicians certainly have no interest in reform. I can't get it put on the ballot (no right to public referendums). I have no funds to hire lawyers for expensive federal lawsuits (even if the supreme court were to reconsider its decision).

Perhaps if I got a couple thousand armed people together, called ourselves "the opposition", stormed the white house, named myself president (and appointed my friends ministers), then perhaps I could make change from within? I should get international support for doing so and I reserve the right to call in international forces should any state not wish to recognize me as the official government & follow my orders.

Seriously.. What do you recommend? Please keep in mind that the average person has to work 45-60 hours a week, raise a family, maintain a household, isn't rich, isn't politcally connected, has limited resources, etc..


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## Joseph Peter (Mar 26, 2012)

justonemore said:


> Odd. According to the U.N. Russia has the second highest immigration rate (right after the U.S.). As such, I'd guess that a lot of people don't find as many detractors with Russia as you do.
> 
> What method can you recommend for addressing the ills of the United States from within? In a positive, constructive way, that also promotes real change? If I wanted to protest outsider interests in campaign finance, would I be able to do so? It seems the supreme court has already ruled it legal and the politicians certainly have no interest in reform. I can't get it put on the ballot (no right to public referendums). I have no funds to hire lawyers for expensive federal lawsuits. Perhaps if I got a couple thousand armed people together, called ourselves "the opposition", stormed the white house, named myself president (and appointed my friends ministers), then perhaps I could make change from within? I should get international support for doing so and I reserve the right to call in international forces shoiuld any state not wish to follow my orders.


Perhaps run for office?


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Joseph Peter said:


> Perhaps run for office?


Don't you need millions in your campaign war chest to run for public office? Where do you get millions for a campaign? From super pacs. Can I compete in a campaign minus this funding? Nope? Will a superpac give me money if I'm running on a ticket that includes getting rid of superpacs? I somewhat doubt it. Running for office nowadays is more about how much press you can afford compared to your standing on any actual issues (have you noticed how most politicians become moderates at election time?).

I suppose Superpacs aren't the only financing. I guess if I was born rich like a Bush/Romney/Kennedy or married into money like a McCaine/Kerry, then financing a campaign on my own might be realistic.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

justonemore said:


> Smart move with all the posturing the rebels in Kiev have been doing. Could you imagine the problems we'd be facing if a Ukrainian ship got out and started playing wargames with the big boys?
> 
> I'm not quite sure of the definition of "warship" but the thing in the photo appears to be more of a cargo ship than anything one would take into battle but I guess warship has a certain sinister ring to it versus cargoship.


No, it's clearly a warship.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Chouan said:


> No, it's clearly a warship.


Ok. i thought warships had big guns & weaponry. I didn't see anything like that but perhaps I just missed them.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

justonemore said:


> Ok. i thought warships had big guns & weaponry. I didn't see anything like that but perhaps I just missed them.


I believe that brother Chouan may be something of an expert on this particular subject.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

*"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - *_Nietzsche - __Morgenröte (pub. 1881)_


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Shaver said:


> I believe that brother Chouan may be something of an expert on this particular subject.


I'll happily admit to Chouan's expertise over mine on such matters. I've always prefered aviation for wars, transportation, & cargo. Perhaps I confused the term "warship" with "battleship" or something else of the sort.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

justonemore said:


> Ok. i thought warships had big guns & weaponry. I didn't see anything like that but perhaps I just missed them.


How old are you??


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

WouldaShoulda said:


> How old are you??


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> How old are you??


12 actually & I fully admit to not being an expert on "Warships" so perhaps my view was somewhat off. Usually when one hears the word "warship", they do not automatically associate the term with "support vehicles" such as supply ships, hospital ships, laundry ships, etc. While I suppose a radar ship is technically a "warship", taken on it's own (without weapon support), it's pretty much a sitting duck.

A quick Google seach for "warship" seems to support my 12 year old point of view: :rolleyes2:

https://imageshack.com/i/0kzecdj

https://imageshack.com/i/5h87wtj

https://imageshack.com/i/15jqujj

https://imageshack.com/i/mut843j

https://imageshack.com/i/5ku13ej

https://imageshack.com/i/0rfwhjj

https://imageshack.com/i/5benb7ij

I suppose I'm showing my age again but are submarines considered warships? This one has mounted cannons in addition to its torpédos:

https://imageshack.com/i/5i2z95j

OK. I admit these weapons aren't a built-in fixture but..... I would think that most of us "Laymen" would call the carrier a "warship" versus the support craft next to it. I'm sure those that served in a Naval force or have such as hobbies would be more versed on the lingo than I (just as we here at AAAC know the difference between a Balmoral and a Blucher).

https://imageshack.com/i/gohnbaj


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

AH!!

I thought you may have been thinking....


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Indeed. That beauty is much more to my taste than any of the ones I posted (although I'd still prefer flying).


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, HMS Daring is a warship, but doesn't even look particularly like a ship.....


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^ It's a Dalek on a surfboard, right? :rolleyes2:


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Chouan said:


> Well, HMS Daring is a warship, but doesn't even look particularly like a ship.....


I admit the thing is rather ugly but unless I found the wrong picture, it appears to have the standard modified triangle shape one normally associates with such craft. Are you refering more as to how it is equipped?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

This is the warship that was scuttled. She'd been used as a floating store beforehand, hence the cargo gear. Nevertheless she was a warship.

This is what she was....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-class_cruiser


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

justonemore said:


> Odd. According to the U.N. Russia has the second highest immigration rate (right after the U.S.). As such, I'd guess that a lot of people don't find as many detractors with Russia as you do. This is just total numbers only, there are many many countries with a higher percentage of immigrants in their population than the U.S.
> 
> What method can you recommend for addressing the ills of the United States from within? In a positive, constructive way, that also promotes real change? As an example, if I wanted to eminate outsider interests in campaign finance, would I be able to do so? It seems the supreme court has already ruled it legal and the politicians certainly have no interest in reform. I can't get it put on the ballot (no right to public referendums). I have no funds to hire lawyers for expensive federal lawsuits (even if the supreme court were to reconsider its decision).
> 
> ...


First allow me to apologize for my delay in answering a very legitimate and well stated inquiry. Real life issues precluded my finding some free to get on the keyboard and visit AAAC for a few days. Democracies work best when members actively participate and to effectively contribute we must do more than just vote each time an election comes around. How well do we actually know our candidates for office or how familiar are we with the performance records of those already in office. If asked to do so, we should certainly be ready to contribute. On the first two counts I do put considerable effort into getting to know the candidates and have taken the time to review the voting records of the Hoosierville representatives to the US Congress. I have twice written the offices of those Congressmen in the past 12 months to let them know of my interest in their efforts. My thoughts are that if they know enough of their constituents are watching them, they just might be more righteous in their execution of their elective responsibilities. With regard to stepping up and running for office or serving when asked, I am somewhat ashamed to admit that since my retirement from full time employment, I turned down an opportunity to run for an elective office and declined an appointment to serve as a city manager of one of our local municipalities.

Beyond that, I spend most of my time these days trying to make my local community a better place to live, volunteering a couple days a week at a men's homeless shelter, supporting several Habitat for Humanity efforts with my financial support and volunteering my labor at the work sites, as they see fit to ask me to join in, providing labor and financial support for a litany of other local civic initiatives, etc....well I hope you get the picture. The bottom line is we all need to do all of that which we are able to do and be willing to give back when we can to make this wonderful experiment in participative democracy all that our founding fathers intended it to be.


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