# Preventing a gap between tie and collar



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I've been working on my tie knots but can't seem to put an end to the chronic problem of the knot slipping down just a bit so that there's usually a gap between it and the collar. It can be as much as a centimeter, and now that I'm paying attention, it's bothering me more and more. Some people don't have this problem: Any ideas on why it happens and what I can do to stop it?

Ps. I'm week 2 into a new job, and a colleague just asked me in the elevator why I always wear a tie. Heh.


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## lt114 (Jul 30, 2009)

What kind of knot do you typically use? I have this problem when I use a four-in-hand knot. Most of the time I tie a half-windsor knot and that stays tight to the collar. Also, are the collars on your shirts a bit tight to start with? I've noticed that it's hard to push the knot up close to the collar when the collar is a bit tight to start with; if there's some room between your neck and the collar to start with then you should be able to tighten the knot appropriately so that there is no gap.

Hope this helps.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

And how are the collars ironed? My cleaners do a final "whomp" to flatten the shirt (to save space I guess) and it makes a second little crease that causes the collar to sort of roll down in front. I repress and it helps a lot. I hate ironing shirts.

and ditto lt114 on collar size


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I have this problem with either a windsor or a half-windsor.

It could be that the collars are too tight to begin with...but I hate to think I've gone up a collar size.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

tocqueville said:


> I have this problem with either a windsor or a half-windsor.
> 
> It could be that the collars are too tight to begin with...but I hate to think I've gone up a collar size.


You should be able to slide your index finger between your collar and shirt, without a lot of effort. If you can't, you need to increase your collar size a notch.


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## lt114 (Jul 30, 2009)

If you go up just a 1/2 inch in collar size it might fix this problem.

Many people say that you should be able to fit 2 fingers between the collar and you neck.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

lt114 said:


> If you go up just a 1/2 inch in collar size it might fix this problem.
> 
> Many people say that you should be able to fit 2 fingers between the collar and you neck.


That's true, for a more comfortable fit.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

When tightening our tie hold it straight out horizontally from your neck, dont tighten it while it hangs vertically. This can help a bit but if your collar is loose you end up using the tie to crimp the collar tighter around your neck and over time this will loosen a bit. 

You might also find that its a question of the shirt and collar design as some have more shirt peeking out above the tie than others. Many point collar shirts have no gap at all between the top of the points and others have a about a quarter inch or so, this can also be a factor in how high you can get the knot while trying to cover that tiny strip if collar.

If you look at other folks in ties you will see its fairly common and it may be that you notice it much more (and are bothered much more) since joining AAAC. If you had asked me a few years ago about this I wouldn't have even known what you were talking about.


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## Sean1982 (Sep 7, 2009)

What about the sirt being too loose at the collar, rather than tight. You scrunch the collar a tad when you tie the tie straight (which you can't see or notice), but it comes looser in time. This has heppened to me when I wore a slightly too big collar.

Also, perhaps the knot is not tight enough?


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## TRH (Sep 6, 2009)

Sean1982 said:


> Also, perhaps the knot is not tight enough?


I found that when I work a nice dimple in my tie, it helps the knot stay nice and tight, thus reducing slippage.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

Better quality silk slips less. It may be the tie.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

lt114 said:


> If you go up just a 1/2 inch in collar size it might fix this problem.
> 
> Many people say that you should be able to fit 2 fingers between the collar and you neck.


I've always had a question about that. Should the two fingers be stacked one on top of the other, of side by side?


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## lt114 (Jul 30, 2009)

Liberty Ship said:


> I've always had a question about that. Should the two fingers be stacked one on top of the other, of side by side?


I've always assumed that you stacked the 2 finger. Otherwise, it would have the same effect as one finger, if you put them side by side.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Liberty Ship said:


> I've always had a question about that. Should the two fingers be stacked one on top of the other, of side by side?


It is 2 fingers side by side, not stacked. It doesn't mean you have a finger-wide space all around the collar. It takes 2 fingers to take up the slack in the collar.


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## lt114 (Jul 30, 2009)

The bottom line is: if you turn your head and your collar turns with you, it is too tight.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

It's interesting because earlier today I was watching a Christmas special on television with Italian tenor Andrea Bocelli and all I could see was his tie knot being about a half inch below his collar. If I had not read this thread yesterday I probably wouldn't have even noticed it and just listened to his music; however, today I was looking at the location of his tie knot. Damn AAAC. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Alligator (Sep 17, 2009)

Isn't that what a restroom is for? Checking yourself out in the mirror and adjusting your tie before visiting someone important?


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## bpworks (Oct 30, 2009)

*Gap between tie & collar*

If in fact it is not the fact your collar is too tight you might try this. After you have folded your collar down place thumb & forefinger of both hands inside the shirt collar toward the back of your neck. Slowly pull your shirt collar toward the front. This should shape the collar to where the collar sides meet in the front. Then tighten your tie.

A suggestion regarding laundering shirts. The more starch you put in your shirts, the smaller the collar will become. Also the faster your shirts will wear.


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## Zingari (Jul 9, 2007)

I think this has a lot to do with shirt manufacture and the tie - choice of knot and material.

If you look at Prince Charles, for example, he wears his shirt collars quite tight and uses a very small 4 in hand. This has the effect that it 'lifts' the lower part of the knot away from the shirt for a perfect position. Exactly the style I aspire to.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

*The Correct Answer*

The above answers, while informative, are not germane to the problem and are incorrect. Your problem, if your ties are any good, is lack of tie space. Look at the photo. A collar which is close together at the top will push your tie knot down (center photo). A collar which has space between the leaves will allow the tie to stay in the proper place.

You can solve this problem in any of these four simple ways:
1] Have your shirts made and specify tie space requirement
2] Buy a shirt with too tight of a collar and move the button 3/8" looser
3] Find a RTW maker who makes their collars with sufficient tie space
4] Buy shirts with wide spread collars

As for the finger question:
Standard collar fit: Two fingers, side by side, in the back. And yes, these take more room than one finger.
Tight collar fit: One finger struggles to get in the back.

As for collar tightness: A _Forbes_ magazine study from the early 1990's found that 70% of American men wear their collars too tight. This is only detrimental in that it significantly reduces blood flow to the brain through the carotid artery. No big deal. :devil:


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

Alex, It's nice to see a post from you. 

Question regarding the button down. Is the space requirement between the leaves, the same for button downs as spread collars, or is the approach somewhat different?


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## oroy38 (Nov 11, 2009)

Cruiser said:


> It's interesting because earlier today I was watching a Christmas special on television with Italian tenor Andrea Bocelli and all I could see was his tie knot being about a half inch below his collar. If I had not read this thread yesterday I probably wouldn't have even noticed it and just listened to his music; however, today I was looking at the location of his tie knot. Damn AAAC. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


As a former pianist I've worked with enough vocalists to be able to explain this one!

A lot of it has to do with how much he needs to expand his throat to get the necessary airflow to produce the amount of sound needed to fill a performance hall. If the tie is cinched even a little snug (this applies to the collar too) it can completely ruin the airflow and destroy his sound. There needs to be enough slack in the collar and the tie so that when his throat expands, it doesn't restrict it, and you would be truly amazed at how much a singer's throat can expand when they're singing full voice in a concert hall.


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## jamezzz122 (Dec 26, 2009)

I have noticed that the material of ties make a difference. Some of the smoother silks with print on them loosen up much more. While heavier fabrics like wool have kept a good knot for me.

The previously mentioned holding of the tie horizontal when tightening has worked for me also. Adding a tie bar/clip helps also.


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

Simon Myerson said:


> Better quality silk slips less. It may be the tie.


This is a very astute observation, "it may be the tie", I had this problem with some ties and some shirts.

My solution was an elastic band rolled tightly on the thin section of the tie and pushed up underneath the knot, stayed put all day and didn't require buying more shirts and ties, , , , , unfortunately.

F.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Since the expert Mr. Kabbaz has weighed in, you've probably heard the answer. One other possibility, though, may be the silk in the ties. Silk that is given an extremely slippery hand is a little more likely to slip, simply because there's less friction. This is another example of the way in which characteristics that can make a tie initially appealing while on the shelf in the shop make it a less enjoyable tie to wear.


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## Twinspeare (May 3, 2007)

*Not just a tie-space question*

With all due respect to Mr Kabbaz, I believe that another, equally important factor which has been overlooked in this thread (if I haven't overlooked anything) is the degree of the collar's stiffness/softness.

I would more or less still repeat myself if I explained it once again, so here is a link to an earlier post of mine:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=68628&page=2

So, there's basically these three elements to consider: 
collar spread, tie space, and softness/stiffness of collar.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

I guess there will be no tight knots with that yellow button down.


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