# Addictions and diseases...



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Here comes another one of my controversial opinions (like anybody cares)...but anyway...If I could get a bit serious for a moment...the other day a friend of mine and I got into a bit of a debate as to weather or not drug addiction is a disease...his brother was a recovered drug addict, and recently fell off the wagon, now while we both aggree that it was stupid to get involved in drugs to begin with, he feels that his brother is dealing with a disease...I've heard this comparison before and dont aggree at all...now, the way I see it...if a person is stricken with cancer or some other terrible ailment which they had no part in getting, they can legitimately complain that they have a disease...but if a person is spending years partying up, having a good time, using controlled substances, and all the while becomming more and more dependant on them, I dont think that's a disease...it's a choice, I look at it like this, nobody held a gun to their head and told them to stick that straw in their nose, nobody forced this on them, I dont feel sorry for them, but rather find them to be incredibly selfish for doing something like this not to themselves, but to their families (whom I do feel incredibly sorry for)...But the logic that these people were somehow cut down in their prime by some terrible disease that was so unexpected, well that really kind of blows my mind, so by that logic I guess I could say that sence I like shopping...I mean I really like shopping, perhaps you could even say I'm "addicted"...fortunately, my financial situation allows me to do enough shopping that I get my regular "fixes"...but what if that wasnt the case, and I had to resort to robbing people to get enough money to feed my "addiction" well then, all should be forgiven...it's not my fault...it's the disease right??? Sounds nuts to me...So why should it be any different for drug addicts...I'm not saying society should cast these people aside completely...if they're willing to clean up their act, and be productive, well then welcome back is what I say...but if they want to continue to wallow in self pity under the facade that they have been stricken with some terrible disease that they had no hand in bringing upon themselves, well that's another story...I mean, I believe that we all make mistakes in this lifetime, and nobody is perfect, but at the same time, how many "second chances" should a person be allowed??? I'd be interested to hear the opinions of some of my AAAC colleagues (who may or may not aggree with me) regarding this matter...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> Here comes another one of my controversial opinions (like anybody cares)...but anyway...If I could get a bit serious for a moment...the other day a friend of mine and I got into a bit of a debate as to weather or not drug addiction is a disease...his brother was a recovered drug addict, and recently fell off the wagon, now while we both aggree that it was stupid to get involved in drugs to begin with, he feels that his brother is dealing with a disease...I've heard this comparison before and dont aggree at all...now, the way I see it...if a person is stricken with cancer or some other terrible ailment which they had no part in getting, they can legitimately complain that they have a disease...but if a person is spending years partying up, having a good time, using controlled substances, and all the while becomming more and more dependant on them, I dont think that's a disease...it's a choice, I look at it like this, nobody held a gun to their head and told them to stick that straw in their nose, nobody forced this on them, I dont feel sorry for them, but rather find them to be incredibly selfish for doing something like this not to themselves, but to their families (whom I do feel incredibly sorry for)...But the logic that these people were somehow cut down in their prime by some terrible disease that was so unexpected, well that really kind of blows my mind, so by that logic I guess I could say that sence I like shopping...I mean I really like shopping, perhaps you could even say I'm "addicted"...fortunately, my financial situation allows me to do enough shopping that I get my regular "fixes"...but what if that wasnt the case, and I had to resort to robbing people to get enough money to feed my "addiction" well then, all should be forgiven...it's not my fault...it's the disease right??? Sounds nuts to me...So why should it be any different for drug addicts...I'm not saying society should cast these people aside completely...if they're willing to clean up their act, and be productive, well then welcome back is what I say...but if they want to continue to wallow in self pity under the facade that they have been stricken with some terrible disease that they had no hand in bringing upon themselves, well that's another story...I mean, I believe that we all make mistakes in this lifetime, and nobody is perfect, but at the same time, how many "second chances" should a person be allowed??? I'd be interested to hear the opinions of some of my AAAC colleagues (who may or may not aggree with me) regarding this matter...
> 
> ...


Do you consider proper spelling a disease? Just kidding.

Well to start off with, the AMA recognizes addiction a disease and last I checked doctors were considered experts on the subject.

Secondly, just because someone inflicts something on themselves does not prevent it from being a real illness. Certainly anyone would consider lung cancer a disease regardless of whether the person smoked or not. In the case of the smoker, it would have been avoidable but the disease is still real.

The definition of disease is as follows:
an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that interrupts or modifies the performance of the vital functions, is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms, and is a response to environmental factors (as malnutrition, industrial hazards, or climate), to specific infective agents (as worms, bacteria, or viruses), to inherent defects of the organism (as genetic anomalies), or to combinations of these factors

This definition certainly applies to drug or alcohol addiction. You have to realize that many drugs cause serious physiological changes (some permanent, some temporary) and some can cause mental disease as well. Even if you are unable to buy into the physical disease you surely can see that it qualifies as a mental one.

Someone who has never had to deal with addiction can never truly understand the way an addict's thinking goes. You will never be able to comprehend why someone's entire life can revolve around destroying oneself and those around you. Not all addicts are weak willed people dying of their own self pity. Many want help but are completely controlled by the disease. You wouldn't call a schizophrenic these things because he refuses to give up his delusions because you have accepted that he can't. In the same manner, many addicts are never able to recover because they lack the capacity to see a better way and often the ability to seek the help they need.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

You make some good points...but at the same time...my big gripe is...why did they get involved in the first place...I guess, on this issue I just take a firm stance of "you've made your bed, now you must sleep in it"...for example, I'm a smoker...I truly dont believe that smoking is as bad for you as they say it is...but I still realise that there is a risk of disease associated with this activity...so should I some day be diagnosed with one of these conditions, I have to realise that it's nobody's faoult but my own...although if I wanted to quit tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I could do that aswell, as I dont have a very addictive personality, so perhaps you're right that I cant understand what an addict goes through (nor do I want to), but I just have a very hard time feeling sorry for somebody who has brought upon themselves, through nobody's fault but their own, their current conditions, tragic as they may be...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Addiction is chronic, progressive, and, if untreated, fatal.

Addiction also has a charming feature - it comes with an internal voice that tells the addict "You don't have a disease. Why can't these jerks just leave us alone? Lay off it for a little while, and you'll see - you can take it or leave it. Besides, you're not hurting anybody but yourself..."

Is physiological dependence on a substance a disease? Well, get hooked on something in a clinical setting - opiate painkillers for a work-related accident. Then run out of pills and have your doctor refuse to prescribe more, and tell me if there's something amiss.

Now, when that individual goes doctor-shopping or buys his OxyContin from a guy on the street, is he suffering from moral degeneracy or trying desperately to alleviate the symptoms of opiate withdrawal?

Ultimately, how the addict got where he is is irrelevant. Continuous abstinence from all mood-altering chemicals is the way out. Opinions differ on how to achieve this.

A touchy subject, as one of my former clients, a perfectly decent guy of about 42, was just discovered dead in his apartment. The official cause of death will probably be listed as heart failure, but he simply drank himself to death. (The cause of death would be "denial" in a truly accurate world.) 

The combination of physical addiction, mental obsession with drinking and subsequent spiritual vacuum claims another victim.

I was given innumerable second chances and don't believe in giving up on people. At the same time a person has got to want to get sober.

But it's important to realize that the denial may be so strong that it's simply impossible for the addict to even consider abstinence as a viable option. That's when you need a lot of patience, coupled with a firm resolve not to enable the addict to continue the behavior.

Patrick

PS: Why do people get involved in the first place? Because it feels good. Would anybody sip fine single-malts if there was no glow?


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Drug addiction is a volontarily self-induced health impairment, like tennis elbow, writer's cramp... As such it is a medical condition amenable to treatment. The question of what resources society should devote to that treatment is a tricky one. Prevention through education is probably the right way to go. Another interesting issue is people putting their health and even their lives at risk to excell in highly competitive "extreme" sports.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Gabba:

Your reasoning seems akin to popular opinion on AIDS until at earliest 1984.

*************
RJman. Accept no imitations.


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> ...for example, I'm a smoker...I truly dont believe that smoking is as bad for you as they say it is...but I still realise that there is a risk of disease associated with this activity...so should I some day be diagnosed with one of these conditions, I have to realise that it's nobody's faoult but my own...although if I wanted to quit tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I could do that aswell, as I dont have a very addictive personality, so perhaps you're right that I cant understand what an addict goes through (nor do I want to), but I just have a very hard time feeling sorry for somebody who has brought upon themselves, through nobody's fault but their own, their current conditions, tragic as they may be...


Please tell us the irony here is intentional


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> 
> PS: Why do people get involved in the first place? Because it feels good. Would anybody sip fine single-malts if there was no glow?


This is true. Further, it is not unusual for teens to experiment with drugs, and while most grow out of it, some don't and it becomes more than a phase. It would be unusual, I would think, to get through eight years of high school and college without at least sampling the herb and maybe some harder drugs. Some people are not attracted to this for whatever reasons.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> You make some good points...but at the same time...my big gripe is...why did they get involved in the first place...I guess, on this issue I just take a firm stance of "you've made your bed, now you must sleep in it"...for example, I'm a smoker...I truly dont believe that smoking is as bad for you as they say it is...but I still realise that there is a risk of disease associated with this activity...so should I some day be diagnosed with one of these conditions, I have to realise that it's nobody's faoult but my own...although if I wanted to quit tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I could do that aswell, as I dont have a very addictive personality, so perhaps you're right that I cant understand what an addict goes through (nor do I want to), but I just have a very hard time feeling sorry for somebody who has brought upon themselves, through nobody's fault but their own, their current conditions, tragic as they may be...
> 
> ...


Tell you what. Try to quit smoking. I think you may be able to get a little taste of what it feels like for the addict (though nowhere near as painful). AS for the reasons to start taking drugs or alcohol, they certainly offer more immediate pleasure than does your first Marlboro (as I remember, my first cigarette made me puke; my first drink made me carefree and tingly).

One does not have to have an "addictive personality" to become addicted to some drugs. I have not known a lot of part time heroin or crack users. These drugs can often create a habit from the very first use. The fact that there is fairly conclusive evidence that the tendency for alcoholism is at least partially genetic means that some people may become alcoholic while just trying the occasional drink in their early experimentation with alcohol.

But as Patrick said, how someone starts bears no relevance to whether or not addiction is a disease.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> You make some good points...but at the same time...my big gripe is...why did they get involved in the first place...I guess, on this issue I just take a firm stance of "you've made your bed, now you must sleep in it"...for example, I'm a smoker...I truly dont believe that smoking is as bad for you as they say it is...but I still realise that there is a risk of disease associated with this activity...so should I some day be diagnosed with one of these conditions, I have I have to realise that it's nobody's faoult but my own . . . .although if I wanted to quit tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I could do that aswell, as I dont have a very addictive personality
> *****


Have you ever seen someone die of aggressive, small-cell lung cancer, which is almost invariably caused by smoking? If so, did you tell him as he coughed up lung tissue and blood, and moaned in agony from the spreading metastasis, that "you've made your bed, now sleep in it"? Did you also tell such person that because of his moral weakness he should be denied medical treatment, and should die gasping and gurgling in the nearest alleyway? If not, why not? Do you not have the courage of your convictions? Or have you just been fortunate, and have not had the pleasure of watching a close friend or family member die of such a disease. I hope you never do.

Your lack of self-knowledge and empathy is remarkable. You don't believe that you have an addictive personality, thus you can stop smoking tomorrow if you pleased? Don't you realize that's what many, if not most, addicts tell themselves? Most tell themselves that they have it under control, that they can abandon their vice whenever they chose. Some can; some can't. Of course there's only one way to find out, isn't there?

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:This is true. Further, it is not unusual for teens to experiment with drugs, and while most grow out of it, some don't and it becomes more than a phase. It would be unusual, I would think, to get through eight years of high school and college without at least sampling the herb and maybe some harder drugs. Some people are not attracted to this for whatever reasons.


Indeed, very very true. I never tried the herbal or any other hard drugs during high school and college in the late 90s and early 00s mostly because of the known negative side effects and the negative connotations that come along with hard drug use. Given these factors and mandatory drug tests via college athletics I stayed away. That didn't stop those that regulary used them to ridicule those that didn't but more than anything I felt sorry for them. Personally, I view the use of hard drugs as a sign of weakness of character and question the validity of the notion that the use of hard drugs is a legitimate excuse to "feel good". Why someone would knowlingly put themselves and more importantly there families at risk for the sake of "feeling good" is quite beyond me, to each his own I guess.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:Have you ever seen someone die of aggressive, small-cell lung cancer, which is almost invariably caused by smoking? If so, did you tell him as he coughed up lung tissue and blood, and moaned in agony from the spreading metastasis, that "you've made your bed, now sleep in it"? Did you also tell such person that because of his moral weakness he should be denied medical treatment, and should die gasping and gurgling in the nearest alleyway? If not, why not? Do you not have the courage of your convictions? Or have you just been fortunate, and have not had the pleasure of watching a close friend or family member die of such a disease. I hope you never do.


I have. My mothers father and mother died from lung cancer, a horrible death for sure (I was personally in the room and helping assit my grandmother during the last night of her life as she weezed in agony from the pain). But I have to tell you it was altogether avoidable if they took some control of their lives at the pleading of there children that tried everything from pills, to doctor visits, to health camps to get them to quit to no avail. For this upon there death and even more so now I'm more angry than sad, angry that allowed selfishness to trumph love, angry that they allowed a product decide their fate, and angry that they did not live long enough to see all the great memories that have been formed since their passing. The options were available, they didn't decide they were necessary. For most addicts this is the same calculus, it comes down to choice and because of this I applaud those that chose and shake my head at those that don't.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## rtaylor61 (Jul 25, 2005)

I haven't read all of this, but I'm going to make a quick statement. For the addicted, the use is no longer enjoyable. They are not "partying it up" when they feed the addiction. That is only the appearance. What they are feeling is entirely different, because they "have" to get the fix. This becomes a quest that will cost people jobs, family, homes, and everything material in this world. Everything else becomes secondary. Some cope with the addiction and handle it better than others, possibly even hiding it for years. Being an addict is not about having fun, it's about being a slave.

Randy


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rtaylor61_
> 
> I haven't read all of this, but I'm going to make a quick statement. For the addicted, the use is no longer enjoyable. They are not "partying it up" when they feed the addiction. That is only the appearance. What they are feeling is entirely different, because they "have" to get the fix. This becomes a quest that will cost people jobs, family, homes, and everything material in this world. Everything else becomes secondary. Some cope with the addiction and handle it better than others, possibly even hiding it for years. Being an addict is not about having fun, it's about being a slave.


I have a friend with a severe drinking problem, and I can attest that she's not having any fun at all. On the contrary, she's ruined her career and most of her social network is in a shambles.

I recently received a reference request letter from a state student loan program and was advised by her mother NOT to fill it out - she's not planning to use the money for school - and not to loan her any money.

I think it is very difficult to understand addiction if you've never experienced it personally (I drink, but socially, and I'd never realized that she was drinking socially with me when we were 20, and then going home and having a bottle of vodka on top of it.)


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Whnay

I am sorry, read what life experiences you went through.
I understand your feelings.
Same for me as well.
Dont blame them?
It adds anger and fuel to a fire, that can go on forever.
I suugest applauding their lives, what they did do, what have you.
I went through the very same, was upset.
Thank you
Nice day

Jimmy


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

...hmmm...perhaps I should try to explain why I stand where I do on the issue...first off, RE: smoking & My own vounerability to addictions...after I graduated college (where I picked up the habbit), I quit for about 2 years, it was just about the easiest thing to do, and never once did I crave a cigarette, but, after finding myself in a very stressful job, and even then, I didnt really find myself wanting a cigarette that much...but the truth be told, they do help me take the edge off of a rough day and so I started up again (although I am nowhere near what you'd call a "heavy smoker" [1/2 pack a day at most])...so I'm sure if I wanted to I could quit again...I could cite other examples of being able to kick bad habits with realative ease, but I dont want to turn this into any kind of self-aggrandizing testament to my own will-power or anything...

...anyway...perhaps, I am a bit ignorant when it comes to this subject, but, I have known drug addicts, recovered and otherwise...and I'm not saying that they are bad people, I'm deffinately not saying that they are stupid (my friend's brother is actually a very smart guy)...and I'm deffinately not making any indictments as to the "morality" of such activities...what I'm saying is that these people have made a very stupid decision, especially a younger person...given the education available to them today about the adverse effects of participating in drug use...furthermore...I dont really care if they want to do this or not...what I'm saying is...they have to accept responsibility for the choices that they've made...If somebody attacks somebody without the intention of killing them, but accidentally does, they have still killed them wheather they intended to or not, and must face the punishment for their actions, regardless of if it was an accident or not...

This is an argument that has interested me for a while now, and though my opinion is deffinately not the popular one...and I can deffinately appreciate "the other side of the coin", I think that there may be a bit of a happy medium between taking a hard-line stance against ever forgiving these people and coddling them for the rest of their lives...I like what Patrick said as far as "They have to want to quit"...I've heard this before...and (as a big believer in willpower) I think it's particularly true...perhaps that's what I've been trying to say all along without being able to articulate it all that well...to me it's about accepting responsibility...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

I will stick up for Gabba on this one. If by a disease, we mean "something that can be addressed by the medical establishment" (usually unsuccessfully, in this case), then addiction meets that description. But if disease means something that the sufferer cannot be held responsible for, then I have to disagree. It does not minimize the suffering of the addicted to say that they are ultimately responsible for their problems. I think Patrick can attest that part of recovery from addiction is taking responsibility for yourself.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> ...hmmm...perhaps I should try to explain why I stand where I do on the issue...first off, RE: smoking & My own vounerability to addictions...after I graduated college (where I picked up the habbit), I quit for about 2 years, it was just about the easiest thing to do, and never once did I crave a cigarette, but, after finding myself in a very stressful job, and even then, I didnt really find myself wanting a cigarette that much...but the truth be told, they do help me take the edge off of a rough day and so I started up again (although I am nowhere near what you'd call a "heavy smoker" [1/2 pack a day at most])...so I'm sure if I wanted to I could quit again...I could cite other examples of being able to kick bad habits with realative ease, but I dont want to turn this into any kind of self-aggrandizing testament to my own will-power or anything...
> 
> ...


It might help you to engage in the proper discussion if your constructed your question properly. The term "disease" does not relate to fault in any manner - I could inject myself with a disease and I would be at fault for contracting that disease; nonetheless, I would still have a disease regardless of my fault.

It seems that you are seeking to debate whether people with additions should be held responsible for having such an addiction. Therefore, your question should be, "Are addicts responsible for their addiction?" The answers will vary doubtlessly vary depending on the type of addiction and peoples' opinions.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by ashie259_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mr Goul,

What do you smoke?


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## manicturncoat (Oct 4, 2004)

Once you get to the point of addiction, when you must have your fix, I think you are certainly dealing with a disease which must be treated. Unfortunately drugs are everywhere and every type of person seems to be doing them. I spent a night out with some friends in New York recently, you go into a fashionable club and see the crowd and they don't look like drug users but go to the bathroom and a whole other world opens up. People going into stalls four at a time and all sorts snorting and sniffling noises begin, not a couple of people but long lines of people most them with this incredible urge to use the stall at three a.m. and I imagine this scene is repeated at countless clubs and bars all over New York and elswhere.
It seems despite billions of dollars spent we are unable to stop the flow of drugs into the US where the demand is colossal. We made stricter drug laws, in terms of sentencing, but the problem seems to still be pervasive and growing in places where drug abuse hardly existed twenty years ago. Think of the methaphetamine epidemic that has swept across the rural midwest. Do you give up and legalize? I guess you could eliminate them entirely if you wanted to be like Singapore where consumption carries a ten year penalty and a modest amount of drugs, defined as traffiking, is a is a capital offence. Unfortunately, I think they are here to stay.


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## tck13 (Nov 4, 2005)

Being somewhat familiar with addiction and recovery, I wanted to try to explain the "disease" part of addiction. Lacking an easy way to do so, I linked an article about it. 

The first paragraph or two should suffice.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> Mr Goul,
> 
> What do you smoke?


I'm assuming you mean what brand do I smoke?

Dunhill Reds (or Dunhill Milds if I cant find the reds)...plus the occasional cigar (usually no more than about 10 a month or so)...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

> quote:what I'm saying is that these people have made a very stupid decision, especially a younger person...given the education available to them today about the adverse effects of participating in drug use...


True - and yet the education available today about the adverse effects of smoking has somehow not been enough to make you quit.

You say you don't smoke much, but half-a-pack a day (10 cigarettes) and 10 cigars a month (more than 2 per week) is a pretty substantial habit.

I'm glad that you think you have the willpower to quit and I would challenge you to prove it by actually doing so.

Until then - I would remind you not to throw stones when you live in a glass house.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Bradford_
> 
> True - and yet the education available today about the adverse effects of smoking has somehow not been enough to make you quit.
> 
> ...


You seem to be missing the point...if you tell a kid not to do something...what's the first thing they'll do??? But that being said, they have to realise that there are consequences...though some people might, I blame nobody but myself for my smoking...I dont claim that I have a disease or anything else because I enjoy smoking, I'm not looking for a scape goat to allow people to feel sorry for me while all the while I continue to fuel my bad habbit...as has been stated before, the vast majority of people (myself included) dont make it through high school and college without at least doing a little experementing...lucky for me, none of that stuff ever did anything for me...and perhaps I'm just being a hypocrite because my drugs of choice (niccotene and ETOH) are both legal, so I dont have to participate in criminal activity to get my "fix"...and as I said...I dont even have a probelm with somebody simply because they are a drug addict...I have a problem with the fact that they dont want to accept the responsibility for their actions...I never said that they should all quit or whatever, what I'm saying (and I know that I'll be puring gas on the fire with this one) that I find it a bit irresponsible to blame a "disease" for one's bad decisions...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your arguments are inconsistent. You chide people for using dangerous/addictive substance despite their education; yet also argue that such education is ineffective, "if you tell a kid not do something... what is the first thing that [said kid] will do?"

You are also failing to seperate an individual's actions prior to acquiring an addiction and once that individual has an addiction. Once an individual is addicted to certain substances, they continue using those substances due to a disease. However, an individual who is not yet addicted to such a subtance, generally does not begin using that substance due to a disease (although many individuals do become addicts due to mediciation they take for certain diseases).

Finally, you are mixing the idea of "culpability" with that of "disease."


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by pleasehelp_
> 
> Your arguments are inconsistent. You chide people for using dangerous/addictive substance despite their education; yet also argue that such education is ineffective, "if you tell a kid not do something... what is the first thing that [said kid] will do?"
> 
> ...


Okay...Let me spell it out even further...

A kid experiments with drugs knowing full well the effects...fine...but then when he becomes hooked, he wants to play the role of the victim as though he has been stricken with some disease that he never saw comming...as I've been saying, my argument is about accepting responsibility for this "disease"...

I mean, yeah, it's stupid to get involved in the first place, but as I said before...people all make mistakes...but one must own their mistakes...and going easy on these people because they have a "disease" is just makind special allowences for them not to have to own their mistakes...at least that's the way I see it...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Who is going easy on addicts? Offhand it's hard to think of a group of people more thoroughly reviled by society.

The only people who ever "went easy" on me were the ones telling me to cut the crap and do what was necessary to get better. It was no strawberry festival, I can assure you.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> 
> Who is going easy on addicts? Offhand it's hard to think of a group of people more thoroughly reviled by society.
> 
> The only people who ever "went easy" on me were the ones telling me to cut the crap and do what was necessary to get better. It was no strawberry festival, I can assure you.


Patrick...I dont mean to trivialise your triumph...perhaps I'm speaking more from my own personal experiance...but I have known it to be the case more than once, wheather it be my friend's brother, or classmates, or co workers, or whomever...that a person has thouroghly screwed up in some way, and rather than punishing them, everybody around them just let it slide due to the fact that this person has a "disease", when in all reality, they needed to be telling them to cut the crap and get better...all I've been saying is that is shouldnt be a "get out fo jail free card" and as you said, a person has to want to quit...but what if they never do want to quit, because they realise that their bad behavior will always be seen as excusable due to their addiciton??? I'll give an example from my own personal experiance, and I've seen things like this happen more than once...A certain person I knew when I was younger used to make it a habbit ot show up either drunk or high to work every day...one day, she decides to just up and leave at the start of the work day, doesnt say anything to anybody, just leaves her co-workers stranded to do her work, and doesnt return for days...now, if a ceratin co-worker of hers got miffed and went to say somehting to a superrior...imagine that person's surprise then the superrior not only knows this person is a drug addict, but refuses to punish her because "she has a disease"...I've seen things like this more than once...to me, that's alot worse than giving them the proverbial (or perhaps even literal) "swift kick in the ass" and trying to make them realise that their behavior is inexcusable...

perhaps I'm exposing my true ignorance to the subject...but that's just the way I see it...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by The Gabba Goul_
> 
> *
> I'm exposing my true ignorance to the subject...but that's just the way I see it...*


This is the first thing you've said that I agree with.

Signed,
A friend of Bill's

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## marc_au (Apr 22, 2004)

l have alot to say on this topic but l haven't read all the posts so l will hold off.

Drug addiction is a disease related to PIKA. Pika stems from blood sugar problems and from mineral deficiencies in the human body. Alot more about this later.

*GR8MAN (The Shooman) B8MAN.*


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Gabba writes:



> quote:I'll give an example from my own personal experiance, and I've seen things like this happen more than once...A certain person I knew when I was younger used to make it a habbit ot show up either drunk or high to work every day...one day, she decides to just up and leave at the start of the work day, doesnt say anything to anybody, just leaves her co-workers stranded to do her work, and doesnt return for days...now, if a ceratin co-worker of hers got miffed and went to say somehting to a superrior...imagine that person's surprise then the superrior not only knows this person is a drug addict, but refuses to punish her because "she has a disease"...I've seen things like this more than once...to me, that's alot worse than giving them the proverbial (or perhaps even literal) "swift kick in the ass" and trying to make them realise that their behavior is inexcusable...


That's an annoying scenario, to be sure, and when family, friends, or employers do this kind of thing it's called "enabling."

Addiction is a weird disease. In addition to the denial feature, it also affects pretty much everybody the addict comes in close contact with. Like you, in this case.

But ask yourself this: "How much time am I spending thinking about this other person and his problem? Why am I making it mine?"

Or, in rehab parlance - How much rent are you charging for the space in your head? []

Patrick

PS: Gabba, if you're having problems with someone with a substance problem feel free to e-mail me privately - maybe I can help.


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## stache (Oct 1, 2004)

Having lost a brother to alcohol and a pretty good friend to heroin, I have to say both of these guys were looking for something in life that they found in a product, but is also available to a certain extent with serenity. One usually doesn't get those fabulous rushes with being serene, but then the crash is not so bad when things aren't going well.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

I don't quite understand the premise that addicts somehow "expect" something from other people. Could you explain that some more?

As for addicts being "weak", I think of them as 'vulnerable' instead. That is not to excuse or condone the destructive behavior, but just recognizes that something beyond their control caused them to succumb to something they at one point fooled themselves into thinking they could control. The problem is being able to judge whether or not you will ever get to the point where something is beyond your control. No one knows that for sure, anyone who EVER tries drugs or alcohol could theoretically be said to be doing something 'stupid', because at first they don't know for sure whether they'll be able to control it or not.

None of us has full capacity to control our destructive behaviors or tendencies. Those of us who resent having lost a friend or relative to their addiction can't just turn off our resentment, even though it diminishes our lives to some extent to hold this resentment. The resentment shrouds our memories of the good the person brought into our life, so why don't we just give it up? Not so easy.


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