# The Social Decline of the Straight American Male?...



## Grayson

*(rant mode on) *

Recently I was out on the town with customers. At the end of the night, a client asked me in a hushed voice *"OK... you're gay, right?"* After I put her straight (no pun intended) , I asked what caused the confusion.


The reply - _"You always seem to look good and really know your way around a wine list, so we just assumed..."_


OK, how did we come to a point American culture where positive personal attributes are assumed to be the exclusive domain of gay men? Unless you behave like Al Bundy or Homer Simpson you must be gay? Lookit, I'm not offended about being asked if I was (that part is just like being asked if I'm left-handed). It's more about frustration that straight males in American society no longer getting any cred for looking good and behaving well.


It wasn't always so. I submit that many of yesteryear's "alpha males" would be considered "pretty boys" today, if for no other reason that today they would be... 
- Dressed a little _too_ well 
- Would be a bit _too_ physically fit 
- Would speak with a little _too _well, exhibiting some wit and intelligence 
- Would exhibit a little _too much_ taste for good food, fine wines, a few of the other fine things in life 

Not so long ago, these characteristics were hallmarks of a *gentleman* and a goal shared by all men (straight or gay). Don't believe me?... pull out an old photo album and check out a party pic of dear old Dad, Granddad, or Uncle Frank from the 1960's... 









I'll betcha he's dressed better in it than George Clooney at a Cannes premiere. 

And some famous examples from the 'Good Old Days'... 









Gary Cooper 










Cary Grant 










Dean Martin 

I believe that we in the US have forgotten that good grooming, social ease, and demonstrable intelligence are _not_ an integral part of one's sexuality. Unless we get a 'course-correction' and set some higher expectations, we're gonna end up with a single straight male population of socially-inept goobers. 

Or (looking on a bright side) maybe I could just start a "mail-order groom" business and take advantage of the situation? My guess I could make a killing. 

Just sayin'.

*(rant mode off)*


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## Victor123

Well said.


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## dwebber18

I completely agree with your comments. Granted I have never been asked if I was gay, but my dress is always a few notches above the rest, and I know a little about food, wine, cigars and fashion. It always amazes sales people when I ask about thread counts or remark to my fiance that OTR suits typically have a 6" drop which is why I go for seperates. I get alot of looks when I'm out and am wearing a pocket square or similar fashion item. I find it unfortunate that people don't expect a man to know how to dress himself or what makes an item quality. This is magnified in the fact that I live in East Tennessee where a man is well dressed in his good jeans and only twice worn, wrinkled, plaid button down. I guess its just easier to dress like a **** if noone is going to expect more from you. Men are moslty to blame for this, but I put a little of it on women and "fashion" companies that make it proper to dress like that.


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## Puffdaddy

I personally think it's the media. I cannot STAND how just about every single commercial on television portrays men as being bumbling idiots in need of proper "guidance" from women. It kills me.

I'm not saying every one of my friends is the embodies the style of fictional characters from the 40's, 50's and 60's, but if they don't know wine, maybe they know scotch, and if not shoes, then maybe clothes.

I'm not ready to write the male sex off just yet, but I agree that the situation has gotten alarming considering your interaction.

By the way, is it sexual harrassment if a co-worker attempts to out you as gay and you counter with a proposition? Seems one should be in the clear.


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## SkySov

Perhaps it's desperately not wanting people to think one is gay that drives men away from dressing well. Maybe even for safety. In the wrong parts of the country one can be killed if people think one is gay. Whatever you do, do not attend a NASCAR event in a button down shirt tucked in. Undershirts with beer stains only.


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## LaoHu

Puffdaddy said:


> I personally think it's the media. I cannot STAND how just about every single commercial on television portrays men as being bumbling idiots in need of proper "guidance" from women. It kills me.


And, unfortunately, life has a way of imitating this "art" in the form of what becomes common knowledge.


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## upr_crust

*From the other side of the fence, I feel your pain . . .*

Though I am from "the other side of the fence" in terms of sexual orientation, I can see how being mis-identified would be very annoying, and especially for merely knowing how to dress oneself in an attractive manner. It is as if large chunks of the straight male population is so insecure as to go well out of their way to be ***** only not to bear the lavender branding.


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## Pulledpork

I live in a town with a high percentage of gay men and women, and I have been asked this question before. 

The only reason I can possibly see that someone's sexuality would be of interest to someone is if they wanted to have sex with them. Just tell those who ask the question that you are flattered, but attached. Simple.


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## Grayson

Again, I'm certainly not bothered that someone misidentified my sexuality... I am bothered by the method they used to arrive at that conclusion. And I like lavender! :icon_smile_big:

I do agree with the media's effect, but gotta ask - Is it life imitating art, art imitating life, or a vicious concentric cycle of both? I do believe that the media once shaped a higher standard for the American male - making him smart, successful, kind, and (of course) well-dressed. Outside of larger than life film stars and the characters they played, consider these past representations of the 'typical' middle-class American Dad...
























Now consider their modern equivalents...























Yanno... this subject is making me more and more depressed. 
Can AAAC members apply for protection under The Endangered Species Act?


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## mrkleen

Completely agree with the OP. 

The best dressed gay men that I know certainly out dress the best dressed straight men I know (myself included). 

But to be honest, most gay men that I see around Boston dont dress much better than their clueless straight counterparts.


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## Flanderian

What a coincidence! At a recent gathering an attractive young woman took me aside and said, "You're straight, aren't you?" Sadly, I nodded.


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## Flanderian

Grayson said:


> And I like lavender! :icon_smile_big:


And pink too!


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## brokencycle

Grayson said:


> Again, I'm certainly not bothered that someone misidentified my sexuality... I am bothered by the method they used to arrive at that conclusion.
> 
> And I like lavender! :icon_smile_big:


I like lavender too!


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## Preu Pummel

I envy your wine abilities.  My interest for wine is null; it's just not enjoyably palatable. BEER is my realm, or whiskey, but moderation takes me away from being a true, current connoisseur.

Your breakdown of attitudes to men is refreshing. Feminism cropped up strong in the cultural revolution of the later 60's and I think the downfall of prudently dressed and groomed man followed quickly. Notice the ideal man of the 70's being rather hirsute, and open collared; a radical departure from the images of ideal men previous.

Women can pull society individually and as a group, because they are ultimate motivation for most men. If women like something about men they can sway opinion and culture over time. The current 'men are incompetent' images comes from a certain delight women have in that stereotype, despite wanting something quite different. A minority of women want a man that can't present himself well, can't clean up, and has no idea of clothes, culture and cuisine.



Pulledpork said:


> The only reason I can possibly see that someone's sexuality would be of interest to someone is if they wanted to have sex with them. Just tell those who ask the question that you are flattered, but attached. Simple.


These days it seems everyone is sizing up everyone sexually. Maybe it was always so; clothes do relate a certain, potent amount of sexuality. It's the packaging for the physical form, and defines the mind and personality of a man as well.

They 'gay' spotters are everywhere. I always had the problem of being 'gay' when dressed moderately nice. "Must be gay," isn't uncommon to hear whispered around, despite that not being the case. The 'gay' and 'metero' labeling is merely a knee jerk reaction born from feelings of inferiority. And that is sad in itself that someone would look down on someone because they are (mistakenly, supposedly, or actually) gay. Intellectually soft on all fronts.


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## Taliesin

You might like this article, which addresses the issue head-on. I apologize in advance for the fact that the article takes a sudden right-turn at the end, but the clothing analysis up to that point seems pretty good.

www.isteve.com/Decline_of_the_Metrosexual.htm


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## Pulledpork

Preu Pummel said:


> ...Intellectually soft on all fronts.


Agreed.


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## TheWardrobeGirl

Pulledpork said:


> The only reason I can possibly see that someone's sexuality would be of interest to someone is if they wanted to have sex with them. Just tell those who ask the question that you are flattered, but attached. Simple.


Or the question asker wants to set the person up with someone 

Also, when people say "must be gay" or "probably gay" take it as a compliment - sometimes that is a straight woman's way of saying "wow, that guy is way to good to be true/available/etc!"


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## Bob Loblaw

"I like the way your slovenly manner of dressing emphasizes your heterosexuality."


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## dwebber18

Thats completely correct. When I was in college I was taking my then GF out on an anniversary date, so I got dressed up in a button down and nice slacks. I also played baseball in college and we all lived near each other in the dorm. I got heckled quite a bit walking out the door on my way, it was ridiculous. Granted looking back many of their GFs would not have appreciated a well dressed man because it would have shown their own lack of confidence and personal pride. Not to mention that a girl from that area would have no idea what to do with a man with a little style and culture.


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## Pulledpork

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> Or the question asker wants to set the person up with someone
> 
> Also, when people say "must be gay" or "probably gay" take it as a compliment - sometimes that is a straight woman's way of saying "wow, that guy is way to good to be true/available/etc!"


Good point. :icon_smile:


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## Grayson

Perhaps things may equalize... but not necessarily for the better. When out for dinner with my brother-in-law and his life partner in Phoenix some months ago, I noted they both wore pleated Bill's khakis, subdued pattern buttondown shirts, and sub-$100 penny loafers. I wore a black MTM HSM sportcoat, an open-collar fitted Sea Island cotton dress shirt, tropical wool trousers, and just-shined Allen Edmonds Park Avenues. 

I wondered for some time why two well-heeled and well-educated gay guys would dress like 1980's high-school math teachers. These guys are out and a longtime couple, so I know there's no social issue with their appearance. Perhaps a desired lack of male social "plumage" isn't unique to the straight community after all... but American men in general?


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## Pantherhare

Grayson said:


> *(rant mode on) *
> 
> Recently I was out on the town with customers. At the end of the night, a client asked me in a hushed voice *"OK... you're gay, right?"* After I put her straight (no pun intended) , I asked what caused the confusion.
> 
> The reply - _"You always seem to look good and really know your way around a wine list, so we just assumed..."_


Very rude of her. Maybe she fancied you and was testing out the waters.

I don't think American society is lost, though. The characteristics you listed are well appreciated by straight women, and while a **** at your local bar might call you a nancy, at least you'll have his woman giving you a flirty smile.


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## dwebber18

I can get on board with that, we are a bunch of bums over here haha


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## Kav

Since when did young, sexually prepotent females become experts in identifying the social markers of a gay male?I hate to break the news, but Gays have as many nuances and subcultures as everybody. So we have TWO victims here; straight males, and curved males, er gay, I mean happy, well I think we'd all be happier if MEN, realised there is more to being a man, a human than what we do with our penises aside from the universal function of urinating and avoiding zippers in levis.If there is a 'war of the sexes' The phrase 'divide and conquer' should be remembered. I'm going to break here,watch Perry Mason and take notes on Paul Drake's flashy sportscoats. Raymund Burr would never dress like that!


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## Jovan

I have this problem too. Frankly, I think it's very rude of someone to ask that -- unless of course they are interested. But I'd still be slightly offended they'd assume as much. Has anyone ever felt they had to drop hints about their sexuality because of this? Sometimes it feels that way to me. I shouldn't HAVE to, but with all this confusion... eh. At one point, someone WITHOUT EVEN TELLING ME told a guy that I was gay and single. When the guy in question propositioned me, I found it sweet and flattering, but I had to decline and clear up the confusion.

Now, I'm going to have to go against the grain and say that there were probably a lot of men back these "good ol' days" who weren't well dressed either. I have a hard time believing everything was _Leave it to Beaver_ with the father eating a bowl of corn flakes in the morning in a suit, tie, and pocket square. That said, not everything is like _According to Jim_ these days either. The difference is the *perception* of well dressed men. It seems since around the early '90s that perception has been spoon fed with a lot of "peacocks" in TV and movies being homosexual. Like it or not the media has a foothold in some things.

I am not the greatest authority on alcoholic beverages, fine dining, or classy hang out spots. I try to live life simply and go on other's recommendations who know a lot more than me. I spend what I can on good things -- some booze and eBay'd clothes -- and leave the rest to fill my belly and pay the bills. I'm a middle class college student. Everyone understands that. I think what spurs people on to assume things about my sexuality is the way I talk and that I'm rarely seen in a t-shirt. If they assume as much about you at your age (no offence) then I think they need to grow up.

Kav: You crack me up. :icon_smile_big:


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## SuitUP

Taliesin said:


> You might like this article, which addresses the issue head-on. I apologize in advance for the fact that the article takes a sudden right-turn at the end, but the clothing analysis up to that point seems pretty good.


Interesting article. I was thinking about this issue the other day. Something I have found about gays is that for the most part they dress very fashion forward and trendy. I am in Brooks Brothers once a week and I have never been able to peg a guy who looks like he might be gay. However, I go over to Express, Guess or Banana Republic and there is usually atleast 1 guy that is gay excluding 1 of the sales men. I have found that the for the most part (not always like the gay gentlemen here) gays follow the fashion trends like women do.

Not to toot my own horn but I dress very well and I have never been mistaken for gay. But that perhaps has to do with the way I dress. My style has been drescribed as an aristocratic gentleman and helping add to that theme is the fact that I enjoy the opera, ballet, symphony, fine dining and charity balls. Actually of all the charity balls I have ever been to I have always seen male-female couples except 2 balls were a whole table was made of male-transsexual pairs.

Lastly yesterday opera providence help is regular summer series in the park. The dressed up straight looking men dressed in a trad tradition. The few gay appearing fellows wore more flamboyant outfits.


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## Kav

I was at a job with a very butch cashier named Linda. I used to sit down and flirt with Linda until she turned beet red and begged me to stop, both of us laughing. My assistant manager was Laurie, a androgynous, but to me attractive woman and good soul. The other assistant manager was Mike, an in the closet gay. They hired this italian girl from Boston named JoAnne. We started to date. One day over lunch JoAnne asked me who was Gay in the store. I thought this odd, but told her who was out and that several others were gay but not out and it wasn't my place. That monday Linda came to me worried, whispered joAnne was femme and to be carefull. Stupid me said " Well I'm dating her because she's femme."customers interrupted the conversation. Later Laurie pulled me aside and broke it to me JoAnne was a lesbian and using me as a 'beard' or cover while she sorted out company politics, and had come out to her and others that day. I was angry and hurt. I also had a lunch date with JoAnne. She was sitting in my car in the store parking lot and suddenly asked if I was gay. I grabbed two handfulls of ample italian bosom and kissed her until she broke free.I said " answer your question?" She went in and complained of sexual harrassment to Mike. Mike tried to fire me. Laurie countered she was going to fire Joanne. JoAnne went to fellow italian Steve. Steve did fire me. Linda beat JoAnne up in the 'Ladies Room' and JoAnne quit. I got steve and Mike fired for using hte company truck and landscaping plants for Mike's wedding. Sometimes I miss the working girls in Hawaii. They all carried those red bicycle reflectors in hand and would flash sailors walking out of Barber's Point airstation.It avoided a lot of confusion.


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## Grayson

^^^ *makes note to party with Kav one day* ^^^


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## Jovan

The kiss would have been sufficient. But then again, you dated within the company, and that's asking for trouble anyways. No offence, but you got what was coming to you there, buddy.


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## mipcar

Flanderian said:


> What a coincidence! At a recent gathering an attractive young woman took me aside and said, "You're straight, aren't you?" Sadly, I nodded.


If I get asked that then my reply (providing the woman is good looking) is "kiss me and I'll tell you". :devil:

Mychael


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## arnaud

Grayson said:


> Not so long ago, these characteristics were hallmarks of a *gentleman* and a goal shared by all men (straight or gay).




A great post, brave even.

America has become a radically egalitarian society and this is the reason that the lowest common denominator is expected of the American male, the reason no cultured man could be thought of as 'straight' if he knows his way around a wine list. Of course, egalitarianism in itself - as an ideal - is not a pejorative; it's the foundation of our republican form of gov't. _Radical_ egalitarianism is, however, and this sad reality is the state we find ourselves now (no doubt a result of the 1960's - but that's another story).

What on earth does all this have to do w/ clothing?

Well, Tom Wolfe is fond of saying that in New York City, the doormen along Park Avenue dress better than most of the inhabitants whose doors they open and close all day.

What you say is true, as much as I privately regret it. So I just ignore it, shrug, live my life but and order a big-ass bottle of red.


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## Kav

Bower birds expend a lot of energy building those nests. Bull elk can get locked in rut and die together of starvation. I figure 3 movies, a concert, trip to Catalaina and several meals were just as valuable during this fake biological ritual of selecting a breeding partner. I got as much back as I could for my bird seed.


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## Jovan

Granted, it was crappy of her to string you along. However, you _never_ grab someone's knockers without being invited to.


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## Beresford

This is precisely why I wear my wedding ring. Not so I don't deceive women into thinking I'm single, but to stop gay men from hitting on me.


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## TheWardrobeGirl

Jovan said:


> Granted, it was crappy of her to string you along. However, you _never_ grab someone's knockers without being invited to.


Yeah, last guy that tried that on me was shocked by my response


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## Jovan

Beresford said:


> This is precisely why I wear my wedding ring. Not so I don't deceive women into thinking I'm single, but to stop gay men from hitting on me.


Shouldn't you be wearing it anyway? Also, I don't know about you, but I'm flattered if anyone hits on me, male or female.


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## Kav

You're right. Next time I'll heed my belief in equal rights. I'll treat her like any other guy who ripped me off and used me.


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## gordgekko

Puffdaddy said:


> I personally think it's the media. I cannot STAND how just about every single commercial on television portrays men as being bumbling idiots in need of proper "guidance" from women. It kills me.


Someone argued with me once that this is overblown so while we were watching TV I said "Bing!" every time one of these commercials aired. After about five minutes he conceded the point and is as angry as I am about this stuff.

At any rate, I've never had a woman ask if I was gay, only accusations from guys. I usually respond that I've likely been with more women in the past two or three years then they have their entire lives. Typically I'm also right. If they want to throw down, so can I.


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## Victor123

Flanderian said:


> What a coincidence! At a recent gathering an attractive young woman took me aside and said, "You're straight, aren't you?" Sadly, I nodded.


LOL, you should have said a man pulled you aside though.


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## PedanticTurkey

Kav said:


> I (...)


Ohh! Next tell us the one where you learned a new appreciation of "Cajun" culture that time you wandered too far down Bourbon Street. It's definitely on-topic for this thread. Hahahah.


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## Aaron in Allentown

I have only ever been mistaken as gay once, and I was not wearing nice clothing at the time, but, rather, hiking shorts and a t-shirt.

I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that the date was 14 March 1993, though I may be off by a day or two. I only know this because it coincided with the birthday of a relative.

The incident occurred in the Naples metro. I was on my way to see some Roman ruin or other in the suburbs of Naples. I was living in Florence at the time, and I was spending a weekend in Naples.

A man sat across from me on the metro and started to talk to me. I was always eager to practice my Italian, so I chatted with him. As we pulled up to his stop, he asked me if I wanted to go with him. I told him that I'd already planned to go see some amphitheatre or whatever, and it was two stops away. He put his hand on my leg, and I gave him a very confused look. He slid his hand up into my shorts, I stood up and made it very clear that he was about to be on the receiving end of a rather different part of my body than he'd prefer.

Just then, the train pulled to a stop (I think the stop was called Pozzuoli or something like that) and he ran away.

That's the only time anyone ever thought that I was anything other than hetero.


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## T-Bag

Grayson said:


> I noted they both wore pleated Bill's khakis, subdued pattern buttondown shirts, and sub-$100 penny loafers. I wore a black MTM HSM sportcoat, an open-collar fitted Sea Island cotton dress shirt, tropical wool trousers, and just-shined Allen Edmonds Park Avenues.
> 
> I wondered for some time why two well-heeled and well-educated gay guys would dress like 1980's high-school math teachers.


I enjoyed reading your post until this. Now you just sound like a shallow & elitist *****.

By the way, I too like to dress nice, enjoy wine, and am well spoken. I've never been questioned. . . maybe it was something else? :icon_smile_wink:


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## Grayson

T-Bag said:


> I enjoyed reading your post until this. Now you just sound like a shallow & elitist *****.
> 
> By the way, I too like to dress nice, enjoy wine, and am well spoken. I've never been questioned. . . maybe it was something else? :icon_smile_wink:


Sorry that I offended.
Would you like it better if I said _English_ teachers? :icon_smile_big:


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## Fairlane

Pulledpork said:


> I live in a town with a high percentage of gay men and women, and I have been asked this question before.
> 
> The only reason I can possibly see that someone's sexuality would be of interest to someone is if they wanted to have sex with them. Just tell those who ask the question that you are flattered, but attached. Simple.


Hmmmmmm, in Portland, maybe, but in NYC and LI, not so simple. Been there done that. "I'm married". "So?". Ugh. I get propositioned from guys from the dance club me and my wife frequent. Does that mean I have to go somewhere else to dance to the music that I enjoy? No, and furthermore there _isn't_ any other place to go. I even get those questions or connotations on my myspace page. I had to say up front "Look guys, just because I may look or dress like I'm gay to you, doesn't mean I am". (well, I was tired when I wrote that, hearing it now sounds pretty offensive, maybe I should delete it ) _AND I'm NOT EVEN WEARING A SUIT AT THE CLUB!_

Good stuff Grayson. I haven't finished reading the thread yet but did anyone mention metrosexual? That's the term used here in the east I believe


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## T-Bag

Grayson said:


> Sorry that I offended.
> Would you like it better if I said _English_ teachers? :icon_smile_big:


Actually, that is pretty good. Thanks for the laugh. . .


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## mipcar

Scoundrel said:


> Speaking as a professional philosopher
> 
> * Is there such as thing as a professional philosopher? I ask that in all seriousness, not trying to be sarcastic, as I always thought of an philosopher as being along the lines of someone who is 'arty' like being 'musical' or whatever if you get my drift.*
> 
> today, there is a high emphasis on inward beauty.
> 
> * Is there? Really, I would argue that, take the superficial attitudes of the trend for waif thin models, that is not supporting inner beauty. Look at the current trends for aggression and self destructive lifestyles, neither of those show me the 'inner beauty' of the human race.*
> 
> We westerners will always have a concept of linear progress, however what defines progress will always change. My question with this way of thinking is: why do some concepts appear universal, yet others not?
> 
> * I'm not even sure they are universal even if we confine it to a western sense the 'mindset' of an American will be different to that of a Frenchman or someone from New Zealand. Then there is also the religious background even when confined to a Westernised Christian concept.*
> 
> In closer relation to the OP, who can tell me this: why, insofar as the masses are concerned, is the emphasis on inner beauty today?


* It's not, as much as I have observed, it's all about outward appearance and being 'stronger' then another by having more or showing more.*

Mychael

Ps. Apologies that the quote format did not come out as intended.


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## gentleman amateur

Grayson said:


> *(rant mode on) *
> 
> Recently I was out on the town with customers. At the end of the night, a client asked me in a hushed voice *"OK... you're gay, right?"* After I put her straight (no pun intended) , I asked what caused the confusion.
> 
> The reply - _"You always seem to look good and really know your way around a wine list, so we just assumed..."_
> 
> OK, how did we come to a point American culture where positive personal attributes are assumed to be the exclusive domain of gay men? Unless you behave like Al Bundy or Homer Simpson you must be gay? Lookit, I'm not offended about being asked if I was (that part is just like being asked if I'm left-handed). It's more about frustration that straight males in American society no longer getting any cred for looking good and behaving well.
> 
> It wasn't always so. I submit that many of yesteryear's "alpha males" would be considered "pretty boys" today, if for no other reason that today they would be...
> - Dressed a little _too_ well
> - Would be a bit _too_ physically fit
> - Would speak with a little _too _well, exhibiting some wit and intelligence
> - Would exhibit a little _too much_ taste for good food, fine wines, a few of the other fine things in life
> 
> Not so long ago, these characteristics were hallmarks of a *gentleman* and a goal shared by all men (straight or gay). Don't believe me?... pull out an old photo album and check out a party pic of dear old Dad, Granddad, or Uncle Frank from the 1960's...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll betcha he's dressed better in it than George Clooney at a Cannes premiere.
> 
> And some famous examples from the 'Good Old Days'...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary Cooper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cary Grant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dean Martin
> 
> I believe that we in the US have forgotten that good grooming, social ease, and demonstrable intelligence are _not_ an integral part of one's sexuality. Unless we get a 'course-correction' and set some higher expectations, we're gonna end up with a single straight male population of socially-inept goobers.
> 
> Or (looking on a bright side) maybe I could just start a "mail-order groom" business and take advantage of the situation? My guess I could make a killing.
> 
> Just sayin'.
> 
> *(rant mode off)*


Well, I guess by her assumptions, James Bond, in particular as played by Lazenby or Brosnan, must be gay. Who cares what most American women think these days? I live in Japan where a lot of women still look and act like ladies who know how to dress, walk, and sit. No complaints about my dressing and love of food and wine--just the opposite.

Btw, here in Japan no Japanese has won the sumo championships in ages. Hawaiians, Mongolians, Eastern Europeans--and someday American women, as well. They might enjoy going topless and wearing thongs trying to bring down a big near naked man. Of course, they'll need to do something about their tatooes first, lest they be mistaken for yakuza.

The pix are great. Especially that of Cary Grant, who was never proved to be gay or bi. Jealousy can lead to such inexcusable behavior on the part of those with low self-esteem.

Your pix of Homer and the Family Guy are great, but we must remember that most American women look like this as well. And they do not know how to dress.


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## Beefeater

Great OP. I like the "socially inept goobers" bit. LOL.


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## Fairlane

As far as women's roles go, I'm not sure I agree with the notion that they want their men to dress as ***** all the time. Those that do probably like to be out in public with these "cavemen" so they can feel a bit superior? 

Most women I know would love for their man to know how to dress, (translation; take care of themselves) they are tired of being a poor substitute for mommies. The women I know now in my life have started to ask me about what they should wear, what should they buy, etc. I tell them, ''don't get me involved, ask Andy" and I promptly show them the website :icon_smile_big:

One of my brothers-in-law knows how to dress somewhat, but he's in a corporate setting at work. (someone mentioned the dress down look being in vogue now, but what about those hardcore rules of dressing for work? Something to be said for those I think) He's OK but could learn a bit more. My other in-laws are clueless but do clean up well; whether that's a function of their own brain or their wives, I'm afraid to ask

I think women have better gaydar (hope that's not offensive to anyone). At least I will say my gaydar is bad, out-of-date, and probably broken. My wife's is more accurate than I care to admit, but she would never ask someone the way that that woman did Grayson. But I understand being upset by the assumption. I haven't had a man ask me quite that way, a woman yes, and I was pretty pissed. Let's just say after I was done, she had no illusions.You don't want to go there.:devil:


----------



## Pulledpork

I don't think I have a gaydar. Then again, I am not 100% sure what a myspace page is either.


----------



## Fairlane

You've never heard of myspace? It's the new religion. All the kids are doing it. LOL! 

It's a social networking site, very popular, like facebook. You set up a free account and basically design your own webpage, that you can edit, add photos, add other people who have their own pages, as your 'friends', and see who they have as their friends. It's been described as an overblown blog, or online diary, to the new religion. Everyone has something to say, and they can say it with embedded videos, music, pictures, who they admire, what their interests are etc.. It's the web 2.0 way of meeting new people, but admittedly it's mostly patroned by teenagers, and 20 somethings. But there are older adults that have their pages too. Businesses are taking advantage of the social networking craze too. Musicians, movie tie-ins (advertising=$$) and even politicians have their own site. You can send a message, post replies on their blogs. I think it's a tool like any other, and has it's advantages and disadvantages.


----------



## Jackdaws

*Clothing tip...*

As Jerry Seinfeld said, if you're thin, neat, and dress nice, people think you're gay--"not that there's anything wrong with that." I've bought my best clothes when assisted by gay salespersons. I'll pick a gay salesperson over female anytime.


----------



## Bird's One View

T-Bag said:


> By the way, I too like to dress nice, enjoy wine, and am well spoken. I've never been questioned. . . maybe it was something else? :icon_smile_wink:


It surely was not your online handle....


----------



## burnedandfrozen

Yes I seem to get this reaction as well. This is why when "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" came out on TV I was p*$#d off beyond belief. This was all the proof the idiots out there needed to validate their jealousy and hatred. I've since stopped caring. I really cannot control what conclusions others arrive at about me so why bother I figure. I dress the way I do because I like it. Furthermore, I agree with an earlier reply that stated many gay men dress just as bad as straight men. Going by the openly gay men I've know through the years, I have found this to be true.


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## ksinc

I think the increase in non-straight males is creating a bit of a feeding frenzy for the straight ones. They don't have to do much and can get away with a lot so they do. Thus the decline in their social manner. 

I routinely see nice looking ladies with scraggly, unemployed, goofballs that "couldn't get laid with in a whore house with a fist full of $20s" as we used to say back when I was a 20-something. 

My Wife has lots of them that work for her now or did in South Carolina and all they do is complain about the lack of men. Usually they do it at my house or on my phone (long distance.) They've all got nose jobs, boob jobs, lypo-suction, cosmetic dentistry ... these chics will do anything to land a straight man to marry. It's pathetic or at least sympathetic. They're all a bunch of head cases because of it.


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## Jovan

I'm going to bow out of this thread while I still can. Have fun!


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## Beresford

Jovan said:


> Shouldn't you be wearing it anyway? Also, I don't know about you, but I'm flattered if anyone hits on me, male or female.


I was being somewhat facetious. . . . :icon_smile:

But my wife needn't worry about me straying in any event. As I tell her, "even if I had the inclination, I don't have the energy." :icon_smile_big:

And I still think she is the most beautiful and wonderful woman I've ever met, even after 24 years of marriage. So I'm very blessed.


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## ItalianGent

This is quite a "mixed bag" - I think there's so many reasons why people would associate a well dressed man with being gay. Even though it's incorrect, I'm afraid it's just another staple of the stereotype of gay men. I also tend to think that this is a local American phenomenon. If you travel to Europe, the men tend to dress better in all occasions. This would probably assume that anyone who thought you were gay (based on the way you dressed), would see Europe as one big runway show with gay men all over the place (also an incorrect assumption).

In short, don't let the ignorance of other people's statements get you down. It really points to their exposure more than your sexual orientation. Dress in a way that makes you feel good and have fun with it.


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## LD111134

I've read that many younger women now focus more on a man's physique rather than on his attire. One wag wrote that women are more interested in a man who goes to the gym than a man who wears an ascot. While I don't think that this is necessarily true of older women, I posit that many younger men wear what (they think) younger women want to see - no jacket, slim cut open collar (non-buttondown) shirt, flat front pants and square-toed shoes (which appears to be the "official" uniform of nightlife in this town).

I won't hazard a guess as to whether younger heterosexual men believe that dressing more formally (especially when going out for an evening) is "gay"...perhaps they simply think that dressing in tailored clothing is "old".


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## gentleman amateur

burnedandfrozen said:


> Yes I seem to get this reaction as well. This is why when "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" came out on TV I was p*$#d off beyond belief. This was all the proof the idiots out there needed to validate their jealousy and hatred. I've since stopped caring. I really cannot control what conclusions others arrive at about me so why bother I figure. I dress the way I do because I like it. Furthermore, I agree with an earlier reply that stated many gay men dress just as bad as straight men. Going by the openly gay men I've know through the years, I have found this to be true.


The problem with that show is that the guys, particularly the one whose business was fashion, are into Fashion in the pejorative sense. Can women distinguish between style and fashion in menswear?


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## deanayer

I have to rant here as well, god where to start? 

First let me say that since the Niquill "Doctor Mom" commercial first appeared about 15 or more years ago the average white American male has been portrayed as a moron that isn't smarter than the wife OR the kids and yet somehow he lives in a spectacular white Georgian Colonial on a perfect street with a fantastic wife who for some reason that never gets explained married this loser. Taken to its extreme there is the fantastic Ford SUV commercial which reaches the pinnacle of male-bashing by showing a wife dropping off the husband at his place while she drives off with the kids because its clear that they are divorced or separated and as an act of kindness she included him in whatever family event just happened (and he evidently doesn't have a car or she cleaned him out in the divorce) She has the SUV and he, looking bashful and sheepish, is forced to humbly thank her as he shuffles off to the methodone clinic and she goes to her tai chi class. 

The deal as I see it is this: people are pelted with media messages without end. Cosmopolitan magazine spent the last 20 years telling women they could have it all, the career, wife, mother schtick and so off went 50-odd million woman to give it a try. Guess what? You cant have it all, something has to give but if you make woman feel inadequate it sells magazines and skin cream and gives teenagers eating disorders nobody ever heard of in the 50's.

As for men, the media wants you to know you are a carb-scarfing, polar fleece wearing groin scratcher who has to be dressed by your wife at a minimum and are doomed by the fates to act out the one allowed role for you which is basically to imitate Ralph Kramden for the rest of your life. 

In order for Manhattan media to socially engineer us the following representations are allowed (and no others):

All asians will dress in slick dark colors and wear little square glasses and be hip. They will always be represented as the smartest in any setting.

White woman are all goddesses who need to have hot black rocks placed on their back at a spa while someone pretending to be swiss in a lab coat uses nonsense terms like "aroma therapy" in their presence. They can do anything and are so clever but are never shown holding a potato peeler just a glass of white wine with ice in it. they marry losers but end up in great houses and they all eat yogurt and meditate or do yoga and eat salad.

African Americans are always hip and the AA Male is never an Al Bundy unless the AA female is bashing him. No AA's or Asians are ever the butt of a commercial joke only the white male is.

Gay people are always better dressed and more style conscious than anyone, they are like magic "assistants" to fix broken hetero males by giving them a "makeover" which stresses style over substance at all cost. This cliche however doesnt include gay woman who are represented as dog owners in flat shoes.

At the end of the day the American woman wants a real man who she can spot by his ignorance off all things refined, his love of plaid flannel and pizza and beer and driving in his truck with his dog. She wants an Alpha male but he cant be allowed to challenge her in any way because she is trying to work her goddess bit and the two concepts always conflict.

Your fellow males don't want you making them look stupid so please be a good pack animal and don't outshine your fellow sled dogs because that isn't about your wife or GF, SHE IS THE ONE who will do the outshining of the other couples wife or GF in her role as goddess. If you do it, its a betrayal, when she does it its just catty which is fair play.

Because there is no defined role in society for a man with any refinement you are left forcing people to scratch their heads as to how you should be pigeon-holed. You don't make any sense so the best they can do is label you. And if that wasn't bad enough realize that our fate hangs on the actions of people like George Clooney instead of Humphrey Bogart or a modern day equivalent.


----------



## Kav

I overheard two guys setting up for a drumming circle at the local YMCA. First guy is near tears. " I finally saw a bootleg copy of Koyannisquatsi. It all came home to me.


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## ZegnaGent

deanayer said:


> All asians will dress in slick dark colors and wear little square glasses and be hip. They will always be represented as the smartest in any setting.
> 
> No AA's or Asians are ever the butt of a commercial joke only the white male is.


That the perception?

Reality is pretty different in Australia. Among my fellow asians, I'm the 'freak' who likes to dress well. Think baseball caps, untucked t-shirts, hoodies, and flip flops for the most part. I wear a sport jacket, button-down shirt, gray pants, and lace-ups to church, and those my age think its 'dressy' (wife included).

LOL:icon_smile:


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## SkySov

ZegnaGent said:


> That the perception?
> 
> Reality is pretty different in Australia. Among my fellow asians, I'm the 'freak' who likes to dress well. Think baseball caps, untucked t-shirts, hoodies, and flip flops for the most part. I wear a sport jacket, button-down shirt, gray pants, and lace-ups to church, and those my age think its 'dressy' (wife included).
> 
> LOL:icon_smile:


Uh that tilts me too. The "what are you dressed up for" when I'm in odd jacket and loafers. :crazy:

I was watching some ESPN and there was a commercial for the X-Games. The guy in the commercial said something about the X-Games athletes being "non-conformists." And I'm thinking really? Doesn't everyone dress that way now? When are the rebel youth going to really rebel and actually dress differently. Hopefully better?


----------



## ksinc

Fairlane said:


> You've never heard of myspace? It's the new religion. All the kids are doing it. LOL!
> 
> It's a social networking site, very popular, like facebook. You set up a free account and basically design your own webpage, that you can edit, add photos, add other people who have their own pages, as your 'friends', and see who they have as their friends. It's been described as an overblown blog, or online diary, to the new religion. Everyone has something to say, and they can say it with embedded videos, music, pictures, who they admire, what their interests are etc.. It's the web 2.0 way of meeting new people, but admittedly it's mostly patroned by teenagers, and 20 somethings. But there are older adults that have their pages too. Businesses are taking advantage of the social networking craze too. Musicians, movie tie-ins (advertising=$$) and even politicians have their own site. You can send a message, post replies on their blogs. I think it's a tool like any other, and has it's advantages and disadvantages.


I like that you explain MySpace to someone by comparing it to FaceBook and Web 2.0. His head probably spun off already. LOL


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## deanayer

when I say "Asian" I mean like Vietnamese or Japanese or Chinese, not Australian - I should have said "Oriental" but if I am not mistaken that magically became some kind of PC swear word because AGAIN whatever we used to say wasn't good enough for the PC nannies of America and had to be replaced by more "self-esteemy" terms designed to patronize those on the receiving end, just not on purpose.


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## Pulledpork

ksinc said:


> I like that you explain MySpace to someone by comparing it to FaceBook and Web 2.0. His head probably spun off already. LOL


Sorry, I wasn't listening. I was too busy winding my gramaphone.


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## eg1

deanayer said:


> when I say "Asian" I mean like Vietnamese or Japanese or Chinese, not Australian - I should have said "Oriental" but if I am not mistaken that magically became some kind of PC swear word because AGAIN whatever we used to say wasn't good enough for the PC nannies of America and had to be replaced by more "self-esteemy" terms designed to patronize those on the receiving end, just not on purpose.


Um, I am pretty sure there are Vietnamese, Japanese and Chinese people living in Australia -- hence ZegnaGent's response... :drunken_smilie:


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## ZegnaGent

eg1 said:


> Um, I am pretty sure there are Vietnamese, Japanese and Chinese people living in Australia -- hence ZegnaGent's response... :drunken_smilie:


Thank you... and yes, that's exactly what I meant.:icon_smile:


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## Francisco D'Anconia

LD111134 said:


> I've read that many younger women now focus more on a man's physique rather than on his attire. One wag wrote that women are more interested in a man who goes to the gym than a man who wears an ascot. While I don't think that this is necessarily true of older women, I posit that many younger men wear what (they think) younger women want to see - no jacket, slim cut open collar (non-buttondown) shirt, flat front pants and square-toed shoes (which appears to be the "official" uniform of nightlife in this town).


I believe we have a word for that man around here: AmJack


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## Bob Loblaw

Now a good physic AND an ascot.
https://imageshack.us
https://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=378&i=picnicwithaudreyld6.jpg


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27

LD111134 said:


> I've read that many younger women now focus more on a man's physique rather than on his attire. One wag wrote that women are more interested in a man who goes to the gym than a man who wears an ascot.


Can you blame them? To be honest, figure is one of the first things I notice in a woman.


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## Canadian

I've had it both ways. I've worn dress clothes, ties (even bow ties), jackets and even full charcoal grey suits to class at university (public, not private) and to work (as a delivery boy, to pay my way on all these fantastic trips I took as a student). Now as the same delivery boy (family firm, and somebody has to drop off the printing as well as make sales) I generally wear a button down or golf shirt and nice pants. Nobody ever says, "why are you so dressed up", but then again I haven't had a prof accuse me of committing a sartorial atrocity in quite some time (as my friend and favorite professor did when I broke out a pink bow tie). So to fit in, there's a happy medium. 

My favorite question people would ask is, "Are you Amish/Hudderite/Hasidic Jewish" or "Are you rich". People don't dress using conservative clothing anymore unless they're trying to prove a point. 

Is that to say I don't overdress or dress for what used to be a dress up occasion? Not at all. Last time I was at the symphony, I wore a suit. A full, dark suit with tie and I'm only 24. Most of the audience was 65+, wore sportscoats and golf shirts and anybody anywhere near my age was either uber-casual or female. As I stood outside the concert hall waiting for the performance, a midage woman asked me if I was the guest artist. As a musician, I was flattered, but doubt a membership in the Community Silver Band qualifies me to perform with the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra. 

What does this say. If you're young, you have a virtual obligation to dress as though you never worked a day in your life. It's like the Muskrat coat of the 1930s. It's a symbol that your parents are well off and you didn't get where you are by putting in 16 hour days. At the symphony, it's easy for a girl to put on a Le Chateau dress and fit in in the Dress Circle. But nobody's going to refuse entry to a guy in a t-shirt and jeans, after all the jeans cost 300 dollars! He may not pay the fee required for dress circle status because he sees nothing interesting about wearing formal clothes, and may be in the upper gallery, but his appearance is more about the cost of his mediocrity.

I also think one of the reasons I saw so few well dressed young men at work and socially is that art has shifted. Instead of being the luxury of the monied, it's accessable to people who have money, but no class. I'd sell a painting for a million dollars to a guy in jeans at a sale even though I know it's going to hang in a trailer park. No capitalist would argue with that. And nobody would dare resist a higher offer, knowing the painting was en route to a museum in Red China. People now spend lots of money looking casual, and they have the lifestyle tokens to make it appear stylish.

To demonstrate, we now have jeans that cost hundreds of dollars. They come "distressed" or "antiquified". They have labels affixed which certify that they are special, when indeed they would have been ridiculed in a time past. To me, the jeans I wear today are work clothes. I buy them from Mark's Work Wearhouse, not a menswear emporium. But to the AmJack, his 300 dollar jeans, paired with his black blazer and his striped Armani shirt are a symbol of his wealth and "power". If I were to wear my tuxedo to dinner out, I'd be ridiculed and questioned by staff and patrons alike. But a person who wears a 700 dollar outfit which casually appears to be farm workers garb will be welcomed and presented with amazing service. 

Long story and rant short, people pay to look casual. While I spent 500 bucks on a suit, others spend 120 on a t-shirt and 380 on cargo pants. It's a matter of style houses shifting focus from business appropriate wear to casual wear which by necessity of price becomes business acceptable.

Thomas


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## LD111134

*Chicago AmJacks*



Francisco D'Anconia said:


> I believe we have a word for that man around here: AmJack


FD'A: If you hang out in the city, you'll certainly know the kind of downtown havens that these AmJacks frequent - SoundBar, Rockit (and other Billy Dec-run places), the W Hotel bars...plus the cougar-hunters at Lux Bar and Tavern on Rush. I distinguish these guys from the even more atrociously-dress convention-goers, wiseguy-wannabes, Viagra-triangle desperados, et al.


----------



## LD111134

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> Can you blame them? To be honest, figure is one of the first things I notice in a woman.


That's why I go to the gym! To quote the main character Will in Nick Hornby's great novel _About a Boy _- portrayed by Hugh Grant in the film version (speaking to his sister):  
No, no, you've always had that wrong about me. I really am this shallow.​


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## FormerDATT

*So women have taste?*

Sitting here while woman-of-the-house is nearby, chuckling over some of these and she asks "what's up". We then have a spirited discussion re her regard for men's tastes. Coming from rural kansas, though aharp and eductaed, she deplores madras, "searsucker", pink oxfords, and Spectator style shoes - all "Gay" in the worst sense of the word. Don't get me wrong, we both have Gay friends and a few relatives so that's never been an issue, but the word comes out like fire when she bumps up against anything other than Dockers, Doc Martins, Levi 501's, etc. Trying to tell her that some parts of the country actually dress differently has no effect. Jeez, I think even ole Bob Dole has a Madras jacket hidden somewhere. It's hell sometimes getting out the front door in the morning! 
Dave


----------



## ChicagoMediaMan-27

LD111134 said:


> FD'A: If you hang out in the city, you'll certainly know the kind of downtown havens that these AmJacks frequent - SoundBar, Rockit (and other Billy Dec-run places), the W Hotel bars...plus the cougar-hunters at Lux Bar and Tavern on Rush. I distinguish these guys from the even more atrociously-dress convention-goers, wiseguy-wannabes, Viagra-triangle desperados, et al.


Oh, and don't forget the Underground, Enclave, & Rhino. Haha. I have to admit though, I like Rockit.

What do you call the guy in his 20's who wears jeans, tan/brown pointy shoes, a $95 t-shirt with a deep v-neck (that doesn't cover his gut), a sport coat with very outspoken stripes, and has spiky hair? Oh yeah, and he lives in Schuamburg but drives into the city to go clubbing every weekend. I saw a few of these at Citizen over the weekend.


----------



## LD111134

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> Oh, and don't forget the Underground, Enclave, & Rhino. Haha. I have to admit though, I like Rockit.
> 
> What do you call the guy in his 20's who wears jeans, tan/brown pointy shoes, a $95 t-shirt with a deep v-neck (that doesn't cover his gut), a sport coat with very outspoken stripes, and has spiky hair? Oh yeah, and he lives in Schuamburg but drives into the city to go clubbing every weekend. I saw a few of these at Citizen over the weekend.


Now that a suburban guido or guido-wannabe (he might also be from Lombard, Villa Park or Des Plaines), as opposed to the AmJack who might live in River North, Streeterville or Gold Coast and work out at Lakeshore Athletic Club.


----------



## Francisco D'Anconia

LD111134 said:


> I've read that many younger women now focus more on a man's physique rather than on his attire. One wag wrote that women are more interested in a man who goes to the gym than a man who wears an ascot. While I don't think that this is necessarily true of older women, I posit that many younger men wear what (they think) younger women want to see - no jacket, slim cut open collar (non-buttondown) shirt, flat front pants and square-toed shoes (which appears to be the "official" uniform of nightlife in this town).
> 
> I won't hazard a guess as to whether younger heterosexual men believe that dressing more formally (especially when going out for an evening) is "gay"...perhaps they simply think that dressing in tailored clothing is "old".





LD111134 said:


> FD'A: If you hang out in the city, you'll certainly know the kind of downtown havens that these AmJacks frequent - SoundBar, Rockit (and other Billy Dec-run places), the W Hotel bars...plus the cougar-hunters at Lux Bar and Tavern on Rush. I distinguish these guys from the even more atrociously-dress convention-goers, wiseguy-wannabes, Viagra-triangle desperados, et al.


Thanks for the geography lesson. :icon_smile_big: I'm afraid I don't hang out in the city that much. Married and in the suburbs means I usally come in to the city in the AM, go to my office, work, and leave in the PM to return to the suburbs. Not very exciting, but the bloom fell off that kind of exciting a while ago.

Your labels are great. I especially love the Viagra-triangle desperadoes. A true classic of sardonic social observation.

The cougar hunter mode gets me to thinking this thred suggests a new way to score. I have not quite figured it out yet and I don't know yet what to call it. But it it could appeal to young and single (or married and rakish) AAAC members.

If we're surrounded by fools who succumb to stereotypes, why not put it to work for you libido? If you dress well in the classic way advocated here and people, especialy women, mistakenly think you're homosexual based on that one peice of information, they will, perhaps, be less circumspect about your approach. Morover, many women I know lament that their homosexual male friends are not heterosexual and available. Why not play to that audience?

One more thing about the American man classicly dressed well. Since i came here a little over a year ago and started dressing according to what I'm learning here. I get a lot of complimentary comments from women, and a lot more suggestive looks. I suspect that were I the rake I'm not, I could be getting hot a-s like the toilet seats in the ladies rooms at the Ford Agency in Manhattan and LA.

As for the whole homosexual/heterosexual thing, who cares what somebody else is or what you think others think you are. I'm just indifferent about whether someone else is prefers men or women or what they think I prefer. That's their own business and none of mine, except, as I mentioned above, I could possibly exploit their myopic prejudices to get into the Pink. :icon_smile_wink: Regretfully, the vulnerability of the victims who would fall for such a ruse lose their appeal becuse of it.


----------



## David V

LD111134 said:


> Now that a suburban guido or guido-wannabe (he might also be from Lombard, Villa Park or Des Plaines), as opposed to the AmJack who might live in River North, Streeterville or Gold Coast and work out at Lakeshore Athletic Club.


Wanna start talking about the Wicker Park/Ukrainian Village. Gay or staight, man or woman they all sport the homeless look.


----------



## LD111134

David V said:


> Wanna start talking about the Wicker Park/Ukrainian Village. Gay or staight, man or woman they all sport the homeless look.


+1...and I live in Wicker Park! My girlfriend and I own a place off of Division Street and we were out on our balcony late yesterday afternoon and she pointed to a young guy walking down the street with a beard, white t-shirt, baggy cargo shorts and some kind of do-rag/bandana on his head (a common look in this neighborhood).


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27

LD111134 said:


> +1...and I live in Wicker Park! My girlfriend and I own a place off of Division Street and we were out on our balcony late yesterday afternoon and she pointed to a young guy walking down the street with a beard, white t-shirt, baggy cargo shorts and some kind of do-rag/bandana on his head (a common look in this neighborhood).


I completely agree that the person you are describing sounds horrible, but that's part of the reason why I enjoy living in a major city. You have all of these different kinds of people and neighborhoods that make it so diverse. I am not saying they look good, but they make it diverse.


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## LD111134

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> I completely agree that the person you are describing sounds horrible, but that's part of the reason why I enjoy living in a major city. You have all of these different kinds of people and neighborhoods that make it so diverse. I am not saying they look good, but they make it diverse.


Oh, I completely agree with you CMM! I also like the diversity...I just thought that the guy's look was particularly worthy of note.


----------



## SkySov

FormerDATT said:


> Sitting here while woman-of-the-house is nearby, chuckling over some of these and she asks "what's up". We then have a spirited discussion re her regard for men's tastes. Coming from rural kansas, though aharp and eductaed, she deplores madras, "searsucker", pink oxfords, and Spectator style shoes - all "Gay" in the worst sense of the word. Don't get me wrong, we both have Gay friends and a few relatives so that's never been an issue, but the word comes out like fire when she bumps up against anything other than Dockers, Doc Martins, Levi 501's, etc. Trying to tell her that some parts of the country actually dress differently has no effect. Jeez, I think even ole Bob Dole has a Madras jacket hidden somewhere. It's hell sometimes getting out the front door in the morning!
> Dave


punch her in the face


----------



## Diggy18

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> What do you call the guy in his 20's who wears jeans, tan/brown pointy shoes, a $95 t-shirt with a deep v-neck (that doesn't cover his gut), a sport coat with very outspoken stripes, and has spiky hair? Oh yeah, and he lives in Schuamburg but drives into the city to go clubbing every weekend. I saw a few of these at Citizen over the weekend.


Ha ha! Holy cow you just described a couple people I know! I guess i hadn't realized so much they were adhering to a certain "type", but you just described them to a T! That's funny.


----------



## eyedoc2180

Canadian said:


> My favorite question people would ask is, "Are you Amish/Hudderite/Hasidic Jewish" or "Are you rich". People don't dress using conservative clothing anymore unless they're trying to prove a point.
> 
> Is that to say I don't overdress or dress for what used to be a dress up occasion? Not at all. Last time I was at the symphony, I wore a suit. A full, dark suit with tie and I'm only 24. Most of the audience was 65+, wore sportscoats and golf shirts and anybody anywhere near my age was either uber-casual or female. As I stood outside the concert hall waiting for the performance, a midage woman asked me if I was the guest artist. As a musician, I was flattered, but doubt a membership in the Community Silver Band qualifies me to perform with the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra.
> Thomas


Great, humorous comments, especially regarding visits to the orchestra. My wife and I attend Philadelphia Orchestra 2-3 times yearly, using a friend's box seat. I am 50 years old and wouldn't think of wearing anything less than a suit. The audience's collective attire is amazing, even for a Saturday night show. Sometimes we count the number of Nike trail shoes seen, and we have a theory that these folks save the striped tee shirts for special occasions such as this. This especially includes the gay couples. Orchestra seems to draw out the loonies, and stereotypes go out the window. Bill:devil:


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## Fairlane

SkySov said:


> punch her in the face


LOL!!ic12337:


----------



## S.Otto

upr_crust said:


> lavender branding.


 Interesting phrase. I've never heard that one before. I come from insensitive homophobic side of Atlanta.


----------



## jasonbourne

*Somewhere along the line...*

I think men lost the gender wars when we stopped wearing suits. The suit was a symbol of power since the industrial revolution put the business man at the top of society. Now men wear suits only if they "have to" and those men wear suits like a McDonald's fry cooks wears his uniform - poorly and demoralized. I also think that we need more role models for men. I was fortunate to go to a private school where there was no dress code yet slacks and button down shirts were the common attire (an this was the dark days of the 90s). Also suits went out of fashion with the tech boom, as programmers and tech guys came to the top of society they influenced business fashion.


----------



## LD111134

jasonbourne said:


> Now men wear suits only if they "have to" and those men wear suits like a McDonald's fry cooks wears his uniform - poorly and demoralized.


That reminds me of a Chris Rock routine from a long time ago. He was imitating a homeless guy trying to convince a manager of a McDonalds to give him free McNuggets, and the character says to the manager "You think you're so great? You flip burgers in a suit!"


----------



## Preu Pummel

jasonbourne said:


> I think men lost the gender wars when we stopped wearing suits.


And stopped smoking briar pipes.
And got rid of chest hair.
And back hair.

And then Oprah came on TV and it was definitely over.


----------



## Francisco D'Anconia

As some alluded to above, was the American male, regardless of whether he was heterosexual or homosexual, ever really worthy of the reverence the title of this thread and some of the posts above suggest?


----------



## Grayson

^^^ My intent was to relate that American men once had ideals for their behavior and higher expectations for their appearance. Admittedly it was not a universal reality, but it was a socially-acceptable goal.

Today the male population of my country (not presuming to speak for other coutries) seems to largely have low expectations for themselves and a complacency about it.

As more me, I'll walk the former path... it seems less crowded.


----------



## VC2000

Many factors are contributing to the decline of the straight male but I think one that I would highlight is the need in the US society to be young. I think many males hold onto a dress style that doesn't progress beyond adolescence. They wear the clothes that don't fit or whatever. I think they think this is a way to stay younger...when a generation or two ago dressing well was a sign that you had matured and were a man of standing - wearing a suit said I have arrived.

As I live near San Francisco, I dress well most of the time and my age rounds to 40 and I have never been married thus I get tagged as gay at times. I have gotten over it. As I have a good many friends that are gay it doesn't bother me. I can confirm that hanging out with gay males can be a great time - one of my best gay friends gets calls that Playboy or Penthouse couldn't dream of... For example he got a call from a female friend who happens to work as a stripper - she begged him to come along with her to Las Vegas because she was going to be bored - she would pay for everything - flight, hotel...wanted him to hang out at the strip club while she danced -yep she pay his way to hang out in Vegas with a stripper. He gets calls like this frequently - if you hang out with them the social proofing is rather great... Mystery had Neil Strauss in the Society of the Pickup artist pretend to be gay to allow him to approach females easier...when he was first starting out. An interesting approach.


----------



## 76classic

VC2000 said:


> Many factors are contributing to the decline of the straight male but I think one that I would highlight is the need in the US society to be young. *I think many males hold onto a dress style that doesn't progress beyond adolescence. *They wear the clothes that don't fit or whatever. I think they think this is a way to stay younger...when a generation or two ago dressing well was a sign that you had matured and were a man of standing - wearing a suit said I have arrived.
> 
> As I live near San Francisco, I dress well most of the time and my age rounds to 40 and I have never been married thus I get tagged as gay at times. I have gotten over it. As I have a good many friends that are gay it doesn't bother me. I can confirm that hanging out with gay males can be a great time - one of my best gay friends gets calls that Playboy or Penthouse couldn't dream of... For example he got a call from a female friend who happens to work as a stripper - she begged him to come along with her to Las Vegas because she was going to be bored - she would pay for everything - flight, hotel...wanted him to hang out at the strip club while she danced -yep she pay his way to hang out in Vegas with a stripper. He gets calls like this frequently - if you hang out with them the social proofing is rather great... Mystery had Neil Strauss in the Society of the Pickup artist pretend to be gay to allow him to approach females easier...when he was first starting out. An interesting approach.


Tell me about, my whole generation seems to be stuck in perpetual teenage mode. Sometimes I go back to my old neighborhood and see grown men riding bikes with grown riding on the handlebars. Sagging jeans, over sized tee shirts, sneakers, etc.


----------



## eagle2250

...and then again, the "social decline of the Straight American male" just might be more perception than reality...I hope! Over the past forty or so years of wearing suits, ties and highly shined shoes, I have been, many times, called chauvinist, a**hole, tyrant, etc. by the woman/women (if we count the children) in my life but, never Gay! However, a few years ago, the kids were looking through my old high school yearbook and noticed a picture of me standing on a mat, wide eyed, with my arms outstretched and muscles flexed and wearing my wrestling singlet. They laughed, commenting, "Dad, that's Gay"...my wife laughed! My path was clear...those damn Yearbooks are now hidden away!


----------



## ItalianGent

Canadian said:


> I also think one of the reasons I saw so few well dressed young men at work and socially is that art has shifted. Instead of being the luxury of the monied, it's accessable to people who have money, but no class.
> Thomas


Exactly. It's a statement about "convenience" - it's more convenient to spend lots of money and look shabby (because it's more readily available) than it is to spend lots of money and look like you've spent it.

As far as "class" is concerned, I don't see much of it nowadays regardless of how much money people have spent on their appearance. American society has lost it's social values in a lot of places, but clothing manufacturers have still managed to raise prices on clothing that, fashion wise, doesn't reflect the price they are asking (and getting), and that's where the line between "dressing well" and "class" disappeared (if the relationship between "class" and "clothing" is the example).

To contradict myself, one of my favorite observations in life is: "Some of the classiest people I have met have no money at all", so I guess the assumption is a bit bogus to begin with.


----------



## Aaron in Allentown

And just when you thought straight American men were a lost cause...


----------



## edhillpr

Here's an insightful quote from the article:

"Jonathan Singer, 26, ... credits his new wardrobe with helping him land a better-paying job. 
"It always pays to look good," he said. "I had looked in the mirror and never was impressed. I looked like a little kid who was waiting to grow into his clothes."


Exactly.
We are not eternal teenagers in shapeless baggy sweatpants and tshirts with witty sayings printed on the chest. 
We are men. Men with responsible jobs, and other people who depend on us.

Why vainly try to dress like a sloppy, spoiled child who has never had to work? At lunch, I walked through North Point mall (Atlanta) today and roughly 90% of the men were dressed like they were unemployed or homeless. I saw only one man in a suit, and only a few others with ties.

Better to embrace the dignity of work and maturity, by dressing well.


----------



## Mr. Knightly

Grayson said:


> Sorry that I offended.
> Would you like it better if I said _English_ teachers? :icon_smile_big:


Have a little respect. We're not so bad.


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie

I've never had anyone come up to me to ask if I was gay by the way I dressed. If they did, I will answer back depending on circumstance (either 'what's it to you?/no comment' or 'that will depend on the nature of your enquiry.'  )

The only person who has issue with me wearing suits, ties, etc is my mother who seems to be offended for some irrational reason. Once I wore a tie to a birthday lunch and she openly condemned me for wearing it in front of the rest of my family. She either thinks suits are old fashioned or that they are strictly 'work clothes' (meaning you shouldn't wear them outside of the office). Before my interests in satorial matters, my mother use to criticise me for not spending enough on clothes!

All others (mainly outside my family) have complimented me; people at work, on the street, etc. and I seem to be the only best dressed man in my entire circle of family and friends who gives a toss about appearance.

[/rant]


----------



## Jovan

Francisco D'Anconia said:


> As some alluded to above, was the American male, regardless of whether he was heterosexual or homosexual, ever really worthy of the reverence the title of this thread and some of the posts above suggest?


I'm going to get that book. Thanks!



Aaron in Allentown said:


> And just when you thought straight American men were a lost cause...


_"You can throw out all the rules," Cohen said. Even in tough economic times, "this is a trend that you have to buy, otherwise you look outdated."_

For obvious reasons, I have to disagree with him.  The rest of the article is heartening though.


----------



## hockeyinsider

This is an interesting and rather enlightening discussion.

When I was in university, I would always get looks and side conversations from females and such that, "Oh he's probably one of 'them' because he dressed too well." Sometimes I enjoyed wearing something just to see people's reactions. 

I agree with the original poster that it's sad that American hetreosexual males cannot wear certain clothing without drawing suspcious looks or being the subject of rumors and inndeudos. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have noticed a lot of these sterotypes that hetreosexual men cannot dress well without being a homosexual-in-hiding is propagated by middle-class or lower-class individuals who are unacustomed to well-dressed men in fashionable and stylish clothing. That's my take anyways, as I have noticed the richer a woman is or the richer her background and raising was, the less skeptical she is about men who dress well.


----------



## hockeyinsider

Bob Loblaw said:


> Now a good physic AND an ascot.
> https://imageshack.us
> https://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=378&i=picnicwithaudreyld6.jpg


I hate to imagine if I wore that today. The looks I would get!


----------



## hockeyinsider

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> Can you blame them? To be honest, figure is one of the first things I notice in a woman.


Interesting point.

I agree to an extent that social class and style of clothing is less important for women when looking for men -- particularly at universities these days, as so many collegians dress horrible regardless of upbringing.


----------



## hockeyinsider

Canadian said:


> Last time I was at the symphony, I wore a suit. A full, dark suit with tie and I'm only 24.


I'm the same way ... we're rather unusual. Most men under 26 who still in school as undergraduates or graduates don't even own a suit, let alone a blazer or sportcoat. And when they do have a suit, it's obvious mom or dad bought it for them back in high school for a dance or graduation ceremony.


----------



## hockeyinsider

Canadian said:


> If I were to wear my tuxedo to dinner out, I'd be ridiculed and questioned by staff and patrons alike. But a person who wears a 700 dollar outfit which casually appears to be farm workers garb will be welcomed and presented with amazing service.


Blame the egalitarian, left-wingers for the downfall of culture and civilization.

As Lord Tebbit once said, The "permissive society of the 1960s has become a drunken, violent, _yobbish_ society of schoolgirl mothers and schoolboy fathers."


----------



## hockeyinsider

Mr. Knightly said:


> Have a little respect. We're not so bad.


The guy in the white shirt, tee-shirt and chinos, would be considered "dressed up" by most U.S. standards.

And what's with the two schmucks wearing black suits. You look good in the dinner jacket.


----------



## ChicagoMediaMan-27

hockeyinsider said:


> And what's with the two schmucks wearing black suits. .


Don't be so sure those suits are black. They actually look like navy or dark gray to me, but I could be wrong. A lot of dark suits can look black in photos.


----------



## Jovan

The guy in the chinos looks FINE.

The other two guys do as well.


----------



## hockeyinsider

Jovan said:


> The guy in the chinos looks FINE.
> 
> The other two guys do as well.


The chap in the chinos and white shirt is a mess.

And in the other photo, nobody knows how to hold a wine glass.


----------



## ChicagoMediaMan-27

hockeyinsider said:


> And in the other photo, nobody knows how to hold a wine glass.


So that means they don't look good? Actually, the 2 guys you referred to as "wearing black suits" aren't even drinking wine.


----------



## Dandy

hockeyinsider said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> I agree to an extent that social class and style of clothing is less important for women when looking for men -- particularly at universities these days, as so many collegians dress horrible regardless of upbringing.


I totally disagree with this point! Its only the American colleges in the middle of no-where that the students dress terribly. I have studied at the London School of Economics, and now the University of Toronto for my master (studying economics and finance), and every student has between 1-4 suits, with a few sport jackets and blazers. Most wear dress shirts with dress pants to school; you'll never see someone sporting the "Abercrombie look". The only people who I see dressing so atrociously are the fine art and engineering students.


----------



## NukeMeSlowly

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> What do you call the guy in his 20's who wears jeans, tan/brown pointy shoes, a $95 t-shirt with a deep v-neck (that doesn't cover his gut), a sport coat with very outspoken stripes, and has spiky hair? Oh yeah, and he lives in Schuamburg but drives into the city to go clubbing every weekend. I saw a few of these at Citizen over the weekend.


Do you mean this guy?


----------



## ilikeyourstyle

Dandy said:


> I totally disagree with this point! Its only the American colleges in the middle of no-where that the students dress terribly. I have studied at the London School of Economics, and now the University of Toronto for my master (studying economics and finance), and every student has between 1-4 suits, with a few sport jackets and blazers. Most wear dress shirts with dress pants to school; you'll never see someone sporting the "Abercrombie look". The only people who I see dressing so atrociously are the fine art and engineering students.


Maybe they dress well for certain special functions, but I recently spent seven years in university in Canada, and most students were wearing jeans and casual shirts, untucked, with sloppy shoes. I'd say less than 1% of male students were wearing dress pants to school, both in undergrad (science) and grad school (business).


----------



## Jovan

hockeyinsider: How, HOW is he a mess? Because he has his sleeves rolled up? Because he chooses to have facial hair? Because he's not wearing a coat or tie?

Between that and the wine glasses, you come off as so uptight it's not even funny.

EDIT: Hey wait, I remember why I originally left this thread! Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## YoungEconomist

hockeyinsider said:


> And in the other photo, nobody knows how to hold a wine glass.


I was under the impression that you only hold sparkling wine by the stem, not regular wine. (The heat from your hand causes the carbon to release faster, or something to that effect).

Am I way off?

PS, sorry if this is a little too off topic.


----------



## Aaron in Allentown

YoungEconomist said:


> I was under the impression that you only hold sparkling wine by the stem, not regular wine. (The heat from your hand causes the carbon to release faster, or something to that effect).
> 
> Am I way off?
> 
> PS, sorry if this is a little too off topic.


Yes. All wine glasses should be held by the stem in order to prevent the warmth of your hand from changing the temperature of the wine, which should have been served at the appropriate temperature.


----------



## Ricardo Malocchio

Aaron in Allentown said:


> Yes. All wine glasses should be held by the stem in order to prevent the warmth of your hand from changing the temperature of the wine, which should have been served at the appropriate temperature.


"Should have".

All the time, I am served whites - even heavier whites - that are far too cold for my liking. Holding the glass between two hands to warm the wine is my approach.

And just as often I'm served reds that are far too warm for my liking, particularly in the summer where "room temperature" is such a variable. Those are refused.

Of course, some folks like their white wines "frigidaire cold", and I've read that some folks request their reds "lightly microwaved" to the temperature of blood. Neither are my preference.

It seems to me that a slavish devotion to rules serves no one well, save those who delight in following them.


----------



## hockeyinsider

Jovan said:


> hockeyinsider: How, HOW is he a mess? Because he has his sleeves rolled up? Because he chooses to have facial hair? Because he's not wearing a coat or tie?


His shirt is too big and baggy, he should be wearing a v-neck tee-shirt, his facial hair is sloppy for a teacher, and his sleeves are rolled up (most young people these days seem to roll them up as if they're uncomfortable wearing them down). Oh yeah, his collar should be a button down since he doesn't have a tie or jacket on.


----------



## hockeyinsider

As others have said, these two kids probably spent a few pennys on their yobbish outfits:

https://imageshack.us
https://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=217&i=n10052203400390458416nz3.jpg

https://imageshack.us
https://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=297&i=n10052203401631768418pi7.jpg


----------



## The Transporter

I used to get the gay thing a lot when I lived in Iowa but not too much since I moved to Chicago in 2004. I still get it when I go back home, though, and my friends have to defend me when I'm not there even though it's pretty stupid. My family's definitely blue collar but I always wanted to be Alex P. Keaton growing up and started reading GQ and Esquire at 13. I just happen to know a lot about clothes.

My girlfriend bought me some stuff from Banana Republic for my birthday last month and the pants ended up being the wrong size. When I went to the counter to exchange them the girl asked if she'd bought my shirt, too. I was wearing one of my favorite Robert Graham shirts and I said no, I bought it myself. She was very impressed and my girlfriend chimed in that I'm the only guy she's ever dated who she has to worry about outdressing her.


----------



## Jovan

hockeyinsider said:


> His shirt is too big and baggy, he should be wearing a v-neck tee-shirt, his facial hair is sloppy for a teacher, and his sleeves are rolled up (most young people these days seem to roll them up as if they're uncomfortable wearing them down). Oh yeah, his collar should be a button down since he doesn't have a tie or jacket on.


He's slim and the shirt is probably RTW. Hardly "big and baggy" though. His facial hair is trimmed. It may have been hot outside. As for the crew neck and point collar... are you kidding me?


----------



## SlowE30

hockeyinsider said:


> As others have said, these two kids probably spent a few pennys on their yobbish outfits:
> 
> https://imageshack.us
> https://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=217&i=n10052203400390458416nz3.jpg
> 
> https://imageshack.us
> https://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=297&i=n10052203401631768418pi7.jpg


Oh, wait, there are guys in those photos? Thanks for bringing me back to my senses. I'm signing off to get dressed and scurry downtown!:devil:


----------



## ChicagoMediaMan-27

hockeyinsider said:


> His shirt is too big and baggy, he should be wearing a v-neck tee-shirt, his facial hair is sloppy for a teacher, and his sleeves are rolled up (most young people these days seem to roll them up as if they're uncomfortable wearing them down). Oh yeah, his collar should be a button down since he doesn't have a tie or jacket on.


I agree with Jovan on this one. There is no nothing wrong with wearing a non button-down collar without a tie or a crewneck undershirt. Actually, button-down collars are generally considered more casual than the other collar styles. Button-down collars are just your personal preference when not wearing a tie. It is nothing to criticize anyone about.

Sure that shirt isn't bespoke or MTM, but it actually isn't that baggy on him.


----------



## ChicagoMediaMan-27

hockeyinsider said:


> As others have said, these two kids probably spent a few pennys on their yobbish outfits:
> 
> https://imageshack.us
> https://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=217&i=n10052203400390458416nz3.jpg
> 
> https://imageshack.us
> https://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=297&i=n10052203401631768418pi7.jpg


I find it hard to believe that you are criticizing what looks like 18 year old kids at a kegger for wearing abercrombie & fitch. Who cares? 
Let's face it. Not all college kids have a ton of money to spend on suits and blazers.


----------



## jamgood

I thought it was the Mustang Ranch.


----------



## Jovan

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> I find it hard to believe that you are criticizing what looks like 18 year old kids at a kegger for wearing abercrombie & fitch. Who cares?
> Let's face it. Not all college kids have a ton of money to spend on suits and blazers.


To be fair, A&F is pretty pricey for what it is. I would personally rather spend $80+ on a decent pair of chino trousers (or less, hopefully) than "distressed," pre-faded jeans. That's me, though. Other people my age can wear whatever the hell they want, so long as it's appropriate for the occasion.


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie

Speaking of A&F, I once entered the Savile Row one to see what all the fuss was about. Let's say I'm never going in there ever again. It was so dark, it felt like I was in some sort of Disneyland haunted house attraction. You can hardly see any of the items they are trying to flog you and I soon got disorientated and claustrophobic. You'll find more glee in a dungeon...


----------



## dingbat

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> I agree with Jovan on this one. There is no nothing wrong with wearing a non button-down collar without a tie or a crewneck undershirt. Actually, button-down collars are generally considered more casual than the other collar styles. Button-down collars are just your personal preference when not wearing a tie. It is nothing to criticize anyone about.
> 
> Sure that shirt isn't bespoke or MTM, but it actually isn't that baggy on him.


Go to Ireland or the UK and the button-down phenomenon is far less common. They certainly look more casual to my eye than a spread collar or similar.

Undershirts are also far less common. If I'm wearing a tie I'll definitely wear an undershirt, but I am an exception here (in summer, the lads look at me as if I've got two heads - have tried to explain that (a) it's far more comfortable and (b) it avoids nasty underarm sweat patches but it's a losing battle). If I'm not wearing a tie, I'm far, far more likely to go without an undershirt as the shirt just looks better.


----------



## Liberty Ship

Aspects of this matter were addressed in the movie, "Idiocracy," in which a "normal" guy ends up way in the future where society is so dumbed down that whenever he speaks in complete sentences using proper grammar, someone thinks he is gay:

Narrator: "Unaware of what year it was, Joe wandered the streets desperate for help. But the English language had deteriorated into a hybrid of hillbilly, valleygirl, inner-city slang and various grunts. Joe was able to understand them, but when he spoke in an ordinary voice he sounded pompous and ***** to them."

I'm afraid this is happening not only in the area of language, but in every, single aspect of culture from the arts to cuisine to the way we dress.


----------



## Mr. Knightly

I'm always wary of nostalgia, and I suspect it might not be that language is declining, but rather that people who hitherto wouldn't have had an audience have started posting on blogs and forums. I doubt that the average American was particularly well-spoken 100 years ago, but 100 years ago, they would never have had an audience.


----------



## ilikeyourstyle

Mr. Knightly said:


> I'm always wary of nostalgia, and I suspect it might not be that language is declining, but rather that people who hitherto wouldn't have had an audience have started posting on blogs and forums. I doubt that the average American was particularly well-spoken 100 years ago, but 100 years ago, they would never have had an audience.


Very insightful. Thanks for that contribution.

I think you are least partly correct. Our influences in society used to be the prim and proper, the rich, the elite, those with political clout, etc. Now our influences are from TV, movies, and various Internet sources. Then again, the elite themselves have changed from what they used to be. I've been in classes where professors lecture in t-shirts and jeans, and I often see male political leaders show up to functions and travel abroad without suits or ties.

None of this really bothers me though.


----------



## Bog

ilikeyourstyle said:


> I've been in classes where professors lecture in t-shirts and jeans, and I often see male political leaders show up to functions and travel abroad without suits or ties.


Only in Europe/America though. In much of the rest of the world, that is not how it is, so this is more of a commentary on the decline of Western civilization than anything else. Take a look at countries that are economically on the rise in Asia, and you won't see ******** on elites.


----------



## dbgrate

Jamgood...only the names have been changed!


----------



## habitué

Grayson said:


> Unless we get a 'course-correction' and set some higher expectations, we're gonna end up with a single straight male population of socially-inept goobers.


From a European perspective it looks like you have reached that point already - forum members excluded of course :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## Zenny

Our only hope is Barney from How I Met Your Mother. 

SUIT UP!


----------



## Miket61

S.Otto said:


> Interesting phrase. I've never heard that one before. I come from insensitive homophobic side of Atlanta.


I was trying to catch up with this entire discussion before posting, but this one stopped me.

Henry County? Now that there's a Polo outlet in Dawsonville the folks in Forsyth are certainly used to gay men stopping to gas up their VW convertibles at exit 16.


----------



## Miket61

edhillpr said:


> Here's an insightful quote from the article:
> Why vainly try to dress like a sloppy, spoiled child who has never had to work? At lunch, I walked through North Point mall (Atlanta) today and roughly 90% of the men were dressed like they were unemployed or homeless. I saw only one man in a suit, and only a few others with ties.


And those men worked at Dillard's, probably.


----------



## Miket61

Zenny said:


> Our only hope is Barney from How I Met Your Mother.
> 
> SUIT UP!


Umm... was that meant to be ironic?


----------



## Miket61

After replying to three posts, I'm actually going to weigh in on the topic...

I agree with the persistent theme through this conversation that what some people now think of as "acting gay" was, as recently as the 1960s, considered being a *gentleman*. One worked hard to achieve a level of comfort where one could care about what one wore, what one ate and drank, where one went on vacation.

I escorted a lady friend to an event for her law school's chapter of Lambda Legal, which is a gay and lesbian group. It was held at a gay bar.

Trust me, gentlemen, across a sufficient sample, gay men do NOT dress better than straight men. There might be $300 jeans and $95 spandex t-shirts, but it's still jeans and a t-shirt. There was also a lot of the fratboy look of khaki shorts, leather flip-flops, and an untucked striped OCBD.

There's definitely a theme in heterosexual male culture that we have attained the privelege to be irresponsible adolescents until we're pushing 40, but there's an equally strong cult of youth among gay men. Someone over 30 going into a gay bar is looked at with derision by the young, horribly skinny, overly trendy little boys. I'm not sure what they think happens to a gay man when he turns 30, but apparently socializing is not part of their long-term plans.

On a related note, the membership director of a businessman's club wanted to offer me the "young professionals" rate, which I would have last been eligible for eight years ago. 

And regarding the holding of wine glasses, I'm reminded of a toast I made a few months ago:

_May you always hold white wine by the stem,_
_Red wine by the bowl,_
_Friends by the hand,_
_And enemies by the... Cheers! [gulp]_


----------



## Zenny

Miket61 said:


> Umm... was that meant to be ironic?


Yes.

I've never been misunderstood as gay, because I don't act like a gentleman alot of times. I have been called a "dandy" though, but it was by an attractive young lady.

I agree with what most of the posts in this thread are trying to say, that gentlemanly behaviour (including grooming, dressing, etc) has become rare. Queer Eye is not helping at all.


----------



## jamgood

Miket61 said:


> I was trying to catch up with this entire discussion before posting, but this one stopped me.
> 
> Henry County? Now that there's a Polo outlet in Dawsonville the folks in Forsyth are certainly used to gay men stopping to gas up their VW convertibles at exit 16.


Perchance they labor under the misapprension there's still a Barney's outlet there? 
A pilgrimage to the "Deliverance" squeal location farther up?
Or just a "scrumptious" cheezbourgier at Dawsonville Pool Room.


----------



## interestedinclothing

What you said is true, but likely not changing soon, and the world will likely have bigger problems at any rate in the future. I presume I shall be too old to care before the present tension resolves into whatever is the post-postindustrial era. In the meantime I will continue practising handwriting, pronunciation, reading about manners, and trying to improve my dress, since I was denied all of this refinement reared among self-conscious and awkward egalitarianism-but then, something is always wrong at every point in history, and in every government. Complaining is one way to pass our lives but perhaps not the ideal way, at least if done immoderately. But this is a thoughtful post, and reading another's perspective can be enlightening.


----------



## Miket61

Zenny said:


> Yes.
> 
> I've never been misunderstood as gay, because I don't act like a gentleman alot of times. I have been called a "dandy" though, but it was by an attractive young lady.
> 
> I agree with what most of the posts in this thread are trying to say, that gentlemanly behaviour (including grooming, dressing, etc) has become rare. Queer Eye is not helping at all.


I wasn't sure if it was common knowledge outside the US that the actor who plays Barney is in fact gay.


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## Miket61

jamgood said:


> Perchance they labor under the misapprension there's still a Barney's outlet there?
> A pilgrimage to the "Deliverance" squeal location farther up?
> Or just a "scrumptious" cheezbourgier at Dawsonville Pool Room.


I once drove past the outlet mall, turned left through Dahlonega, and kept going out to I-575. I passed a men's clothing shop unlike any I've ever seen. Their specialty is MTM white hooded robes...

Never cared for Barney's. I have one sweater and a pair of shoes from there, both of which I bought in Chicago (which used to have the most appallingly snobbish salespeople, but that's changed). I certainly don't like the overly casual Co-Op at Phipps. (Another four-letter word that begins with C and ends with P comes to mind, but I'll be nice.)


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## Miket61

ChicagoMediaMan-27 said:


> I find it hard to believe that you are criticizing what looks like 18 year old kids at a kegger for wearing abercrombie & fitch. Who cares?
> Let's face it. Not all college kids have a ton of money to spend on suits and blazers.


But one of those college kids can afford a $700 Louis Vuitton "Speedy" handbag...


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## hockeyinsider

In general, I think the cause can be linked to a broken society.

After decades of cultural pluralism and raging against the establishment, the idea of being whatever you want or feel like being is acceptable.

While some degrade Americans for being uncivilized when it comes to dress and manners, I wouldn't say the situation is much better elsewhere. Britain may be stylish in the city centres, but there are heaps of ***** around the country who do injustice to their country's rich sartorial and cultural history. 

This attitude is brought about by class conflicts by those who see suits and nice clothes as something associated with the so-called elite, while some of these elites dress down and overly casual because they are afraid of being anything but a man of the people.

I'm not a social scientist, but I think this is a rather fair and accurate assessment.


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## hockeyinsider

Zenny said:


> I agree with what most of the posts in this thread are trying to say, that gentlemanly behaviour (including grooming, dressing, etc) has become rare.


Let's not forget that many women aren't better when it comes to dressing, culture and manners of ladyism.


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## Bespoke Trout

Before I was married, I occasionally encountered this. I look at it as a way to screen women. The ones who "get" what you're about will be easier to identify. It'll take a while, but you'll save a lot of time and effort. The one or two Grace Kellys who are still out there don't waste their time with turned-around baseball caps and shapeless jeans. It will pay off, believe me. 

BT


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## dbgrate

Oh and it helps a bit if your last name is Rainier and you live in a nice neighborhood....wink.


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## 16412

hockeyinsider said:


> Let's not forget that many women aren't better when it comes to dressing, culture and manners of ladyism.


Ladyism is long forgotten. At most a few know what it is. When I was a child it was taught. Elementary school through middle school girls wore dresses and skirts. Pants were not an option. How many girls today have even worn a dress?

With the hippie generation ageing I wonder when the young guys will start dressing better and what the new better will be.


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## FlowRate

As a college student who is into dance (ballroom, jazz, fire), appreciates art (museums, orchestras), who volunteers with the elderly, and occasionally likes to dress far better than his peers... well.. most people around here have already assumed I'm gay, even my gay friends, before they found out I'm straight. Such is life.

(sorry if this is a resurrection of a very old thread--I like the topic)


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## Leather man

It is an interesting thread I agree. The assumptions in my experience, are the same this side of the pond. My daughter's gay friends ( she has several) are absolutely convinced that I am gay and in the closet. Why? Because I love shoes so much. Even she isn't convinced! I've talked about it to her and she says that no one who is straight is so into shoes and likes clothes, only gay guys. They even think the fact I clean my beautiful shoes and keep them so well is proof that I've not yet woken up to my true sexuality!

Another friend who is more my age said that gay men "smell so nice" they take such good care of their hygiene habits and use such good colognes. Because I like nice colognes too she then said to me " are you sure you're not gay?"

From this I conclude that the stereotype of straight men in American and British society is that they look dreadful, smell awful and are shod, well, shoddily!

And yes, I am sure I am not gay.


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## oroy38

I too have the same problem. All my friends back home see me dressed in something even as simple as a sportcoat, and all of a sudden it makes me gay. Even my mother, bless her heart, asks me if I'm gay. It's quite frustrating and, to be quite honest, it offends me. Not because I don't like gay people, but because I am not gay, and there are no legitimate reasons for people to think I am. I am a pianist, a hardworking student, I dress well and care about my appearance, I can cook, I enjoy fine dining, I love good beer, etc etc. There is nothing about me that would make me "gay." To me, it's the same as confusing a Samoan with a Hawaiian or a Chinese person with a Japanese person. A Samoan is not a Hawaiian, a Chinese is not a Japanese, and a heterosexual is not a homosexual.


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## Winot

Imagine how galling it must be for those badly dressed, pot-bellied gay guys with poor personal hygiene to be mistaken for hets.


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## Dhaller

Funny, all of the gay people I know currently are either software engineers or biologists - none of them are remotely fashionable (indeed, they are nearly all "bears", an interesting and cheerful subculture in itself).

I suspect a thorough investigation would reveal that gay people as a category aren't especially fit, fashionable or refined. They're just... people.

DH


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## Earnest in Brooklyn

*How sad...*



hockeyinsider said:


> Blame the egalitarian, left-wingers for the downfall of culture and civilization.


In a forum where people are supposed to come together to learn about clothes we have to insert a Fox News view of the world?

So the entire downfall of culture and civilization can be blamed on the left? Really?

I came to this place because I was looking for a good place to learn about clothes. Evidently, this is not that place.


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## Earl of Ormonde

And why isn't this thread in the Interchange, where it belongs?


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## Grayson

... and it's been here since July 2008.


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## JerseyJohn

Dhaller said:


> Funny, all of the gay people I know currently are either software engineers or biologists - none of them are remotely fashionable (indeed, they are nearly all "bears", an interesting and cheerful subculture in itself).
> 
> I suspect a thorough investigation would reveal that gay people as a category aren't especially fit, fashionable or refined. They're just... people.
> 
> DH


My experience, too. My friends who are gay don't dress any differently than anyone else at any time I've seen them. They may dress more "fashionably" if they go out to clubs, but so do young straight people.


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## riyadh552

This post made me laugh. I too have a friend, who thinks just because I dress well, I must be gay, and just masquerading as a straight man with a wife and child. Then again, he also thinks Kenneth Cole and Steve Madden make high quality shoes.


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## BamaCPA

This really is a big problem now. I am particularly upset by how the male is portrayed on most comedies. If you step back and not laugh at them, you'll realize that the Dad is always the babbling idiot. Not good for the little tykes in your house to see that and think that Men are supposed to dumb and not amount to anything. 

Did this happen in the 90's that being well dressed automatically made folks think you were gay? When was the transition?


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## JerseyJohn

BamaCPA said:


> This really is a big problem now. I am particularly upset by how the male is portrayed on most comedies. If you step back and not laugh at them, you'll realize that the Dad is always the babbling idiot.


Same with commercials. The straight white male is about the only target TV can get away with making a clown of.


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## CuffDaddy

JerseyJohn said:


> Same with commercials. The straight white male is about the only target TV can get away with making a clown of.


Not true. Fat people of all races are still apparently fair game. And teenaged girls don't fare very well in TV presentation - especially in commercials.


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## upr_crust

*I concur in your observations, for better or worse . . .*

. . . that gay people in general are no more fashionable, fit, or refined than the rest of humanity.

I will observe, however, that when gay men in a large urban setting attempt to fulfill the stereotype of fashionable, fit and refined, they usually do it to a very noticeable degree, hence the stereotype.

For myself, (a gay person of somewhat bear-ish proportions), I do not claim to be especially fit, I have a modicum of style, and I try to be refined in most situations, though living in NYC does inspire the therapeutic use of F-bombs quite a great deal. If this is giving fitness, style, and culture a bad name, I apologize :icon_smile_wink:.



Dhaller said:


> Funny, all of the gay people I know currently are either software engineers or biologists - none of them are remotely fashionable (indeed, they are nearly all "bears", an interesting and cheerful subculture in itself).
> 
> I suspect a thorough investigation would reveal that gay people as a category aren't especially fit, fashionable or refined. They're just... people.
> 
> DH


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## RedBluff

My cousin's lesbian friends swore I was gay at 8 years old. :icon_smile:
For me it has everything to do with having a strong matriarchal family and so many female cousins. My Mom loved to dress me up. For parties, for school, or just to go out into the city shopping, or for lunch even if it was just the Doggie Diner. She is a lady in the truest sense and she raised me to be caballero/gentlemen.


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## IlliniFlyer

upr_crust said:


> I will observe, however, that when gay men in a large urban setting attempt to fulfill the stereotype of fashionable, fit and refined, they usually do it to a very noticeable degree, hence the stereotype.


I think this probably goes along with what I think is the bigger picture. The limp-wristed gays (pardon the expression) who are more effeminate seem to be those that are more into fashion*. These tend to be the skinny kids with lisps. The opposite end of the spectrum gay guy is much more in line with the typical heterosexual male that is also not skinny, doesn't speak with a lisp, nor acts in any way noticeable.

The tight/skinny-fitting clothes seem to be more in line with the former group than the latter, and are much more noticeable (in my opinion). Since that is what gets noticed most it becomes the general stereotype for a gay guy. Thoughts?

*And I do mean fashion, not style.


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## Howard

CuffDaddy said:


> Not true. Fat people of all races are still apparently fair game. And teenaged girls don't fare very well in TV presentation - especially in commercials.


Yeah I've seen commercials with girls in them,many of them don't act very well.


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## CuffDaddy

IlliniFlyer said:


> The tight/skinny-fitting clothes seem to be more in line with the former group than the latter, and are much more noticeable (in my opinion). Since that is what gets noticed most it becomes the general stereotype for a gay guy. Thoughts?


I think that's right, and represents a much broader pattern that explains most nasty stereotypes. It is those who are most distinct/separated from broader norms that are most noticeable. For those who have limited conscious exposure to the group in question, these extreme examples become the image of the group. Thus, it is that, for those who have little exposure to the actual groups in question, the most "swishy" gay man comes to represent all gay men, the black guy with the gold "grills" comes to represent african-american males, and the great Santini comes to represent military pilots. These are all absurd generalizations, though, that are quickly dispelled when one has exposure to a decent number of the actual group.

Once one has some broader exposure to the group, it becomes impossible to think of them _as _a group. Once you know, say, a dozen people from the group, the differences between those people quickly swamp any common trait, and trying to describe what that group is "like" is revealed as an absurd proposition. You know too many of "the good ones." Real, meaningful, day-to-day exposure (on a peer-to-peer basis) to a meaningful cross section of a group will nearly always kill the stereotype.


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## lovemeparis

*What is gay? You are so gay...*



BamaCPA said:


> Did this happen in the 90's that being well dressed automatically made folks think you were gay? *When was the transition*?


Probably, when Rock Hudson came out of the dark...


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## Leather man

Dhaller said:


> Funny, all of the gay people I know currently are either software engineers or biologists - none of them are remotely fashionable (indeed, they are nearly all "bears", an interesting and cheerful subculture in itself).
> 
> I suspect a thorough investigation would reveal that gay people as a category aren't especially fit, fashionable or refined. They're just... people.
> 
> DH


Indeed and very good point. Funny then how the comments directed towards me have come from gay men and straight women! Go figure!


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