# Father/Daughter Talk



## obiwan (Feb 2, 2007)

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs, in other words redistribution of wealth.

She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing in school.

Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, 'How is your friend Audrey doing? She replied, 'Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over.

Her wise father asked his daughter, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask ! him to deduct 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, 'That's a crazy idea, and how would that be fair! I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the Republican party.'


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

Amusing


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Though largely besides the point. The two girls in question were in exactly the same position and one chose not to rise to the occasion.

I support the market and believe in the science of economics over misinformed approaches to philanthropy, but this is a faulty metaphor.


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

JibranK said:


> Though largely besides the point. The two girls in question were in exactly the same position and one chose not to rise to the occasion.
> .


...and you never heard a comment such as "why should I get a job when I can make more money on unemployment/welfare, etc?!?"


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

I see your point - that's simple economics. It is in someone's self-interest to take the option that will grant the greatest net benefit. It's a sad truth, but truth it is.

The key to tackling that is to widen access to education (thus improving people's human capital) so that jobs that pay more than welfare services are available. I think that there will be quite a large shift in the next generation since many prestigious institutions like the Ivies have excellent financial aid programs. All that is left to do is improve lower-level education, as we are doing now here in DC.


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

JibranK said:


> I see your point - that's simple economics. It is in someone's self-interest to take the option that will grant the greatest net benefit. It's a sad truth, but truth it is.
> 
> The key to tackling that is to widen access to education (thus improving people's human capital) so that jobs that pay more than welfare services are available. I think that there will be quite a large shift in the next generation since many prestigious institutions like the Ivies have excellent financial aid programs. All that is left to do is improve lower-level education, as we are doing now here in DC.


I hope there will be a large shift because quite frankly, my generation is an embarrassment. People don't accept responsibility, liability or accountability...everything is everyone else's fault and there is an expectation that if you get yourself into trouble, someone else will bail you out (ex: mortgage crisis, frivolous lawsuits, etc)...people are greedy, self absorbed and overindulgent...I work INCREDIBLY hard for my money, I have always worked incredibly hard for my money and I resent being socially responsible for my "peers" that don't understand the words responsibility and integrity. I don't mean that as a blanket statement because of course there are very hard working people that have been dealt unfortunate blows and I am MORE than happy to assist them as I would want the assistance if I was in that situation but I think there is an overall abuse of the social programs in our society and it gets worse instead of better.

I could go on for hours about my political opinions...I will spare you all!


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

When my Dad was discharged from the U.S. Army after WWII he was eligible to receive unemployment benefits of $25 a week for up to a year. Instead he took a job pumping gas 48 hours a week for $26 a week. And I don't think he was really the exception to the rule back then.

Something has happened since that generation lived, and it isn't for the better. Far too many of my generation and even more of the current generation expect society (ie. government) to give them the things they aren't willing to work and sacrifice for themselves. 

When I got out of the Navy in 1972 I lived in a converted garage with a concrete floor eating rice and beans while I worked and used the G.I. Bill to pay for college. I don't think that my daughter or any of her friends would even consider doing anything like that. I know one 18 year old who refused to accept a car his Dad bought for him because it was to "geeky" looking. Wonder what he would have thought of my '53 Chevy with a transistor radio hanging from the rear view mirror and the passenger door wired shut with newspaper bailing wire? 

Cruiser


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## SubparJ (Mar 27, 2008)

The key to tackling that is to widen access to education (thus improving people's human capital) so that jobs that pay more than welfare services are available. I think that there will be quite a large shift in the next generation since many prestigious institutions like the Ivies have excellent financial aid programs. All that is left to do is improve lower-level education, as we are doing now here in DC.[/quote] - Sorry Im new the quote is from Jibrank.

I believe in the opinion that more people should be educated, but it isnt at the lack of availability in this country. Try living in a foriegn country , where you are only educated if you are of upper class.

If you look at the shift in the professional jobs, doctors, lawyers and such. We are actually in a reversal of need in this country, the laborer is the one needed and in turn is the job that is well paying and available. Its not lack of education , its lack of motivation!

We still live in the greatest country, with the most available to us. But like the point being made in the opening of this post, we do have to work for it.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

I spoke not of not a lack of availability in higher education; I was speaking of lower-level education. I'm in a public high school that is quite well-funded, but many districts in the area are abysmal due to faulty models of administration (for example, the same pay for teaching in a dangerous area as in a rich one) that are not realistic means of recruiting educators.

I have lived in a foreign country (two, actually) both of which were very poor, but one has had a steadily growing economy due to the embrace of human capital as a resource by entrepreneurs and businesses. Certainly, education is still a problem but it has been improving a good deal and access to higher education is open, but very competitive. The upper class in third-world countries tend to get their educations in first-world countries.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> When my Dad was discharged from the U.S. Army after WWII he was eligible to receive unemployment benefits of $25 a week for up to a year. Instead he took a job pumping gas 48 hours a week for $26 a week. And I don't think he was really the exception to the rule back then.
> 
> Something has happened since that generation lived, and it isn't for the better. Far too many of my generation and even more of the current generation expect society (ie. government) to give them the things they aren't willing to work and sacrifice for themselves.
> 
> ...


Cruiser, I agree with you about the greatest generation and I've expressed admiration for your moving personal tale. My father also had to work from nothing to what he has now.

It is sad to see how my generation sees things. Sadder yet, to see how they plan things. I'm often mocked for being overly grown-up for trying to trying to make sure that I'll be able to support myself and keep to my dreams when I'm older - this comes from students whose parents buy them Benzes.

'nuff said.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

I hope the Republican Party that the girl in the OP has joined is more responsible than the profligate fools currently running the U.S. economy into the friggin' ground. We may all be pumping gas for $26 a week soon.


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## StickPig (Feb 8, 2008)

26/ week would be a welcome relief for me. I'm in the 50-60 range. I hope my next job involves a much shorter commute for both me and la espousa.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

StickPig said:


> 26/ week would be a welcome relief for me. I'm in the 50-60 range. I hope my next job involves a much shorter commute for both me and la espousa.


Twenty-six will be the salary we draw from being the ones pumping the gas, I mean.


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## StickPig (Feb 8, 2008)

Doh! I see that now.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Easy-Only those who pay taxes should vote. the more you pay the more votes you get.

Problem solved.:teacha:


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

yachtie said:


> Easy-Only those who pay taxes should vote. the more you pay the more votes you get.
> 
> Problem solved.:teacha:


Yeah, like that will ever happen. Wish in one hand and sh!t in the other and see which one fills up quicker.


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## Helvetia (Apr 8, 2008)

Once the daughter gets a taste of real life - like a job - she'd probably temper her beliefs.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

From the Georgia Public Policy Foundation:

- Then: "The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is... legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay... If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system." - Frederic Bastiat c. 1850

- Now: "The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more." - Michelle Obama

https://gppf.org/article.asp?RT=&p=pub/FridayFacts/4-18-08.htm

https://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G1414


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Liberty Ship said:


> From the Georgia Public Policy Foundation:
> 
> "The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more." - Michelle Obama
> 
> https://gppf.org/article.asp?RT=&p=pub/FridayFacts/4-18-08.htm


Single surest way to shrink the pie for everybody: tell the pie-bakers that they must give pie to those who don't care to bake.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

I found it funny. 

I fear Obama more than Hillary, but I fear them both.


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## SuitUP (Feb 8, 2008)

Wow great story and great responses. I am a dedicated republican myself (and only 29) however if I see a democrat that I view as more solid than the republican then that's the way I go.

I volunteer time with my church to help feed and talk with the poor and homeless. I also donate money and attend the charity ball for the state homeless organization. From what I have seen the system works but not very well. A lot of people that need help fall through the cracks and those that don't need help milk the system.

People talk about how more education would mean better jobs for the lower class and more pay than they could make on welfare only. The habit of choosing welfare over a paying job is usually passed down from generation to generation. So what makes people think that better education would mean they would choose to stop milking the system? What would more likely happen is that they'd stay on welfare AND get a part time job off the books. Therefore working less than full time but still make the same amount or more between a part time job and welfare.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Assuming that we are discussing taxes exclusively on PERSONAL income and assets, I find the underlying notion of fairness, which appears to be held by many around the world, rather strange: the more one earns, the more one ought to be taxed in relative terms. Most of us get taxed on both income as well as consumption. (There is no capital gains tax here in Belgium.) Taxation on consumption is done in an equitable manner: same rate for everyone in a given tax jurisdiction. I believe that income should be taxed in a comparable manner. That is to say, income should be taxed at the same rate for all, regardless of income level. In order to ensure that fairness is achieved to a reasonable level, there should not be any deductibles. (I readily admit that I have no clue as to what an appropriate rate would be but have a feeling that it ought to be well south of 50%.)
That said, I do recognise that there is a massive and diverse group whose vested interests will be threatened by the above scenario. Furthermore, I recognise that this is also a very emotional / political issue and therefore poses some challenges in reaching a purely rational solution.
I also recognise that this is still a complex issue even in its simplest form. Does one get taxed on income generated outside of your country of domicile? If yes, at the same rate? How do double taxation treaties amongst various countries come into play? There are plenty of other questions&#8230;
The notion of forced wealth redistribution is conceptually flawed, but I believe that the execution bit is especially bad in the US when one examines the level and quality of public service that is available to the masses. One glaring example is healthcare. Americans get very poor value for their money, aka tax dollars. Things like healthcare and education are perennially favourite issues amongst the politicians, but all they keep doing is to apply ointment on the skin whilst the problems lie with the internal organs. Yes, I do recognise that these are very complex issues for which any effective, sustainable solution will take longer to implement than any one politician's term limit. That said, it does not change the observation that the average American does get ripped off with respect to taxes.
Several American universities, my alma mater included, in the past year announced a new undergraduate tuition fee policy where students whose parents' household income is less than $100k per annum will not be charged any tuition fees. (God forbid you receive your annual salary adjustment that puts you at $101k!!) The new policy was designed to alleviate growing concerns about the cost of higher education in the US, but I have mixed views on the matter. It is effectively another form of income redistribution, but immediately begs the question about why the fees needed to be so high to begin with if in fact the schools can afford to offer a no-fees option to families earning less than $100k. It simply validates the outrage about the way fees have been increasing at a rate of 2 to 3 times the rate of inflation. 
In practical terms, it makes higher education at certain institutions more accessible to more people without the prospect of large debt by having wealthier families help finance the education of others. It is effectively income tax, without the involvement of government agencies, levied at the point where funds are actually required. I find consolation in this specific aspect of the new policy: the federal, state and local governments will not have the opportunity to piss away the funds before they reach the intended beneficiaries. Is it a fair way to make these schools accessible to a broader pool of students? Well, I think that at least it is a more efficient and effective way of making it happen than having some government programme manage it through higher taxes. Lesser of two evils, I think.
OK, enough rambling.:icon_smile_big:


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Yet another case of "Affluenza."


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## Northeastern (Feb 11, 2007)

Helvetia said:


> Once the daughter gets a taste of real life - like a job - she'd probably temper her beliefs.


Funny, I became more of a liberal after I entered the workforce...and was then laid off during the .com era.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

yachtie said:


> Easy-Only those who pay taxes should vote. the more you pay the more votes you get.
> 
> Problem solved.:teacha:





Laxplayer said:


> Yeah, like that will ever happen. Wish in one hand and sh!t in the other and see which one fills up quicker.


Yeah,yeah- killjoy.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

BertieW said:


> We may all be pumping gas for $26 a week soon.


Wouldn't be surprised to be pumping gas for $26 a gallon soon...thanks, W.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

BertieW said:


> I hope the Republican Party that the girl in the OP has joined is more responsible than the profligate fools currently running the U.S. economy into the friggin' ground. We may all be pumping gas for $26 a week soon.


I agree 100%! Pelosi and Reid have to go; AND GO NOW!



Brooksfan said:


> Wouldn't be surprised to be pumping gas for $26 a gallon soon...thanks, W.


So, you think W has more to do with it than say Alan Greenspan?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

ksinc said:


> So, you think W has more to do with it than say Alan Greenspan?


Yeah, I agree. While W hasn't always been my favorite person I'm not really sure how he is responsible for the price of gas. Of course I guess if he can be blamed for Hurricane Katrina (not for FEMA but for the hurricane itself), it isn't much of a stretch to blame him for gas prices too.

Cruiser


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> Yeah, I agree. While W hasn't always been my favorite person I'm not really sure how he is responsible for the price of gas. *Of course I guess if he can be blamed for Hurricane Katrina (not for FEMA but for the hurricane itself), it isn't much of a stretch to blame him for gas prices too.*
> 
> Cruiser


That reminds me of the Chris Farley sketch on SNL. 
_I am El Nino! All other tropical storms must bow before El Nino! For those of you who don't "habla Espanol", El Nino is spanish for...The Nino! :icon_smile_big:_


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## StickPig (Feb 8, 2008)

Chris Farley- A tragic loss to comedy


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## Francisco D'Anconia (Apr 18, 2007)

Ahh, the difference between the Moochers with their tears, the Looters with their guns, and the Strikers with their minds. Need I say more than what is in this post to identfy which side I incline towards?


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