# I may have to get a new Laptop! Recommendations?



## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

What laptop brand is good and how much memory?

THANKS


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## chatsworth osborne jr. (Feb 2, 2008)

*Yes, Lenovo is Chinese. No comment on memory.*

The IBM, now Lenovo, ThinkPad has been the gold standard in business for the line's durability and reliability. Not the cheapest by any means, but they use quality components and it shows. Their keypad offers a satisfying tactile experience lacking in most modern interfaces.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Apple MacBook.

I used to be the biggest Microsoft loyalist and supporter, but two years ago, I had a bad experience trying to upload photos to a Microsoft photo-sharing website through Microsoft's browser on Microsoft's operating system. I had been seeing some Apple ads at the time which were stressing how everything "just works", so I went to an Apple Store, the guy showed me how easy it was, and I left with a MacBook Pro, which is what I'm writing this reply on right now.

If you think you can't totally abandon Windows, you don't have to. Modern Macintoshes can run Windows natively, Apple makes it easy to do so.

All I'm saying is that at least be open to the possibility. Go to an Apple Store near you (find one at https://www.apple.com/retail/) and try them out, and talk to a sales person, ask him or her what's so great and why should you switch, and how easy is it to switch, etc.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Oh, I forgot the memory question. Hard to say without knowing exactly what you do with it. I would say 2GB is pretty much a minimum these days, while 4GB is a nice upgraded amount. You can get more, but you _probably_ won't notice a difference past 4GB unless you use the laptop for things like photo, video, or sound editing/creating. Or gaming.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

Now this is a topic I love to talk about.... (I'm a tech nerd)

Here is my top 5 Laptop suggestions

Apple Macbook
Pro: Easy to use operating system
prone to less viruses(only because not a lot of people make viruses for the mac)
great programs
great durability (unibody design)

Con: You have to pay the "apple tax" which means the specs you get are more in the $600 to $700.00 range, however, because it's Apple , you have to pay more.
Lack of software packages compared to Microsoft
It has a internal battery (it claims to you can get 1000 charges.. which is a plus)
lack of plug-ins (have to buy a hub)

Sony Vaio

Pro: Durable
Great sound quality
price is great
Several different designs to suit everyone needs
Often has a Blu-ray player (the new ones do)

Con:More Entertainment base, less business base
Some laptops have experienced issues with the new Microsoft operating system ( if you buy new, you won't have a problem)

Lenovo:

Pro: Very business oriented
Easy to use
Great price and value

Con: Customer service is dreadful (there has been some articles on it)
They have a higher amount of problems compared to other top brands
Some heating problems
Asus:

Pros:Great customer service record
Great specs

Cons:Not known well in the USA
price can get a little expensive

Toshiba:

Pro: a lot of specs
good amount of plug-ins
good customer service
price is great

Con:Known to lack a little bit in quality
problems with the battery
over-heating

Buy online:
Newegg.com
Bestbuy.com
jr.com
crutchfield.com
compusa.com

At store:
Bestbuy
Costco
Compusa
etc.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

ZachGranstrom said:


> Apple Macbook
> Pro: Easy to use operating system
> prone to less viruses(only because not a lot of people make viruses for the mac)
> great programs
> ...


Apple tax? I've heard of that, in various articles I've read lately about how it's not really real.

If you look at the specs of an Apple Macintosh _when it's released_ and compare to similarly-equipped PCs, they cost about the same. The thing is, the PC brands usually lower their prices over the lifetime of the product, while Apple does not. Thus, by the mid-point of their product cycle, Apples start to look a little overpriced. But it's not as if Apple deliberately charges more than what PC manufacturers charge, as if it's some kind of "tax". Additionally, what I've read indicates that over the life of the product, an Apple costs _less to own_ than a similar PC.

Lack of software packages? That's certainly true, if you just count the number of software programs for either platform and compare the numbers. But the vast majority of truly useful software that most people would actually want are available for the Mac. Microsoft Office? On the Mac. Photoshop? On the Mac. Anything else from Adobe? On the Mac. Web browsers? Email? Contact management? Chat programs (like AIM)? Calendar programs? Photo management and organization? Website creation? All of that comes on the Mac. Oh, and iTunes? Uh, yeah, it's on the Mac, too. So, what do I not have on my Mac that I used to have on my Windows computer? Anti-virus. Anti-spyware. Anti-malware.

To be fair, there is one type of software that is noticeably lacking for Mac, and that's games. The majority of games are still Windows-only. That's changing, but _very_ gradually. And I'm speaking more of major titles. For simple little games, like card games or board games, you can find Mac versions out there. The Mac does come with a pretty nice, simple chess game. (In fact, I've always felt that Apple including a chess game with their computers is a symbol of the difference between Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft originally put Solitaire in Windows so idiots could learn how to use the mouse. Apple, on the other hand, put in a game that requires some intelligence to play. I feel this symbolizes the differences between how Apple and Microsoft think about their customers.)


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

^^^^
I'm simply stating the (accurate) pros and cons of laptops. Every pro or con that I wrote on these laptops, can be disputed based off of a person's experience with the brand.

On a side note: I'm a Apple fanboy.....


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Last fall, after the new Windows operating system came out, we purchased two new Sony Vaio laptops. Everything worked fine, never a problem, and I could go on forever telling you how wonderful they are to use. I purchased one at www.tigerdirect.com, which not only has good prices, but also has very fast free shipping. The other I bought at B & H Photo (bhphotovideo.com), a camera/electronics store in NYC that I had purchased from in the past. Both were purchased by mail order with fast free shipping and no problems.

Since I first went online in the 1990's, I had used only Dell laptops. I was reluctant to make the brand change and am glad that I did. When shopping for new computers in Staples tech department, I was leaning toward Dell, but their screens were not bright, and did not have the contrast that the other brands had. Other shoppers were also commenting on the same, not just at one store, but at several Staples stores. The sales reps could not make the screens brighter using various controls. I sure wish Dell would get it together so that they could compete on an even keel.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I recommend an IBM Thinkpad,A pretty good laptop and you can add as much memory as you want.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Andy, 

The three questions that need answering before advice can be offered are...

Budget....

Usage and Size... (full feature with large screen, full feature with smaller screen, bleeding edge thin and light, cheap thin and light...)

Platform.... (Mac or Windows)


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

They are all made in China gadgets (mostly built by the same Foxconn) so the key things to consider are:

1. Price (anything over $600 is a waste of money)
2. Hard drive space (I recommend 500GB )
3. Minimum of 2GB but 4GB is better.
4. Screen size depends on your needs (I recently downgraded from a 15.6 to 13.3 to lessen the weight I lug around)
5. Brand names: Asus, Acer or Samsung (in no specific order)
6. Processor: Dual Core or better
7. OS: Windows. 

For decent deals and fast shipping, go to www.tigerdirect.com (I'm biased as I buy 99% of my computer stuff from there for business and personal use)


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Asterix said:


> They are all made in China gadgets (mostly built by the same Foxconn) so the key things to consider are:
> 
> 1. Price (anything over $600 is a waste of money)
> ...
> 7. OS: Windows.


What a crock. Hard to say what price is a ripoff if you don't know what the needs are.

Windows is not the only valid or viable OS choice anymore. Dell, HP, Sony, and (for the ThinkPad line _only_) Lenovo are valid choices for brands, too (not to mention Apple).


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

My vote would go with a Lenovo Thinkpad (SL or T series), good solid no-nonsense business laptops. 

However in my situation I don't want to be dealing with Windows, too much risk from malware/trojans/viruses/spyware here in China. I've got a Macbook Pro and an older IBM Thinkpad, loaded with Ubuntu Linux.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Asterix said:


> They are all made in China gadgets (mostly built by the same Foxconn) so the key things to consider are:
> 
> 1. Price (anything over $600 is a waste of money)
> 2. Hard drive space (I recommend 500GB )
> 3. Minimum of 2GB but 4GB is better.


From experience if one goes too cheap on the laptop, its very likely to fall apart just after the warranty runs out. Plus the cheaper ones tend to be absolutely filled with crapware, demos and advertisements, where one has to spend several hours cleaning up, just to get the thing performing as intended.

One probably can get a laptops with large HDD and 4GB RAM for under $600, but I have to ask what corners have been cut, so they can sell it for that price? Usually cheap flimsy creaky plastics have been used, or the tech support and warranty service sucks big time.

ADDED:

I can tell of some experience of getting laptops repaired in the UK with identical faults. Apple Macbook Pro and an Acer Aspire. Both with faulty DVD drives.

Apple Macbook Pro taken to the Apple Store, DVD drive replaced while we waited at the Genius Bar. *Total time: 40 minutes.*

Acer Aspire taken to PC World. Laptop was sent away for repair. New DVD drive had to be ordered from overseas(probably China). *Total time: 6 weeks*.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

and also what would you use it for?


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

The Thinkpads are a fine corporate laptop however the HP Elitebook series is imo the best of the best when it comes to corporate type laptops. However what you're buying into with these types of laptops along side enhanced robustness durability is a standardisation of platform and a roadmap to help ICT departments manage large scale deployments while reducing the support overhead. They are a slower burn and not as fast to implement the latest features etc. You need to be real careful if ddeciding to buy a machine of this type.

So, this is not the way to go for a soho user. You're paying for things you simply don't need and are limited to the sorts of things you might want - complete flexibility with regard to specification. 

Also, I would have to completly disagree about limiting spend. Sure, this is fine if one wants a mid range mid spec laptop that does most day to day tasks - and there are some very, very good laptops out there that fit this bill.

But, if you want new iCore processors, powerful graphics, bluray, < 4GB memory, solid state disk, 8 hour battery, eye popping LED screens and super light construction be prepared to pay.

Me? My work laptop is a HP Elitebook 2740 - it's superlight, very robust and the touchscreen actually very useful - I have it with the ssd and it's stupidly fast.. At home I - well my wife has - a Sony Vaio F series. This is anything but light but it's really, really powerful with 8GB ram, 640gb hdd, amazing screen and bluray burner. I really, really like it. We also have a tiny Vaio P series for long distance travel - fantastic little device. 

With all that said, if I was starting from scratch and didn't have loads of software and accessories for Windows machines....

I'd buy a MacBook Pro.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> What a crock. Hard to say what price is a ripoff if you don't know what the needs are.
> 
> Windows is not the only valid or viable OS choice anymore. Dell, HP, Sony, and (for the ThinkPad line _only_) Lenovo are valid choices for brands, too (not to mention Apple).


I am an IT person who owns an IT consulting firm with over 15 technicians on my staff where hardware buying decisions are routine so calling my view crock because it doesn't fit your idea of recommendation is not what I'd call intelligent. Btw, Andy's short question was "_What laptop brand is good and how much memory_?" which is what I tried to answer as simply as possible. Andy would hopefully glean from all of us what would be best for him as he gets to make the final decision at the end of the day.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

MikeDT said:


> From experience if one goes too cheap on the laptop, its very likely to fall apart just after the warranty runs out. Plus the cheaper ones tend to be absolutely filled with crapware, demos and advertisements, where one has to spend several hours cleaning up, just to get the thing performing as intended.
> 
> One probably can get a laptops with large HDD and 4GB RAM for under $600, but I have to ask what corners have been cut, so they can sell it for that price? Usually cheap flimsy creaky plastics have been used, or the tech support and warranty service sucks big time.
> 
> ...


I see the point you are making but what you seem to be missing is that most of the so called expensive laptops also come with crapware and inexpensive doesn't always equate to cheap quality. With some things, the price is not what determines the quality. Lenovo & Apple are quite good but are they really worth the premium paid for it? No because they are no better than Asus, Acer or any other laptop out there in terms of quality when comparing apples to apples. Now on the bit about aftersales support, I candidly don't know what it is like waiting because I or one of my staff would fix any system of mine that breaks or we get an RMA to ship it back for a replacement.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

VictorRomeo said:


> *The Thinkpads are a fine corporate laptop however the HP Elitebook series is imo the best of the best when it comes to corporate type laptops. However what you're buying into with these types of laptops along side enhanced robustness durability is a standardisation of platform and a roadmap to help ICT departments manage large scale deployments while reducing the support overhead. They are a slower burn and not as fast to implement the latest features etc. You need to be real careful if ddeciding to buy a machine of this type.
> 
> So, this is not the way to go for a soho user. You're paying for things you simply don't need and are limited to the sorts of things you might want - complete flexibility with regard to specification. *
> 
> ...


Great and well balanced response.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Asterix said:


> I am an IT person who owns an IT consulting firm with over 15 technicians on my staff where hardware buying decisions are routine so calling my view crock because it doesn't fit your idea of recommendation is not what I'd call intelligent. Btw, Andy's short question was "_What laptop brand is good and how much memory_?" which is what I tried to answer as simply as possible. Andy would hopefully glean from all of us what would be best for him as he gets to make the final decision at the end of the day.


I don't care if you're the director of operations for HP's service and support center or the guy who puts the lug nuts on to the passenger-side wheels of cars in an automobile plant. I direct a certain amount of intelligence into forming _all_ my opinions, and telling me what your job is after the fact does not change the amount of intelligence I directed into an opinion I already formed. I still maintain that your statement "anything over $600 is a waste of money" is a crock.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Unless you desire to visually impress those around you or want to plays higher end games, I pretty much agree with Asterix's answer to the original poster's question (though I would allow an extra $100 bucks for price and advise an Intel i3 processor and mimimum 3GB RAM.).


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## Casual_yet_trying (Mar 25, 2010)

Of course, no one says that you need to go OTR when buying laptops. Depending on what you intended uses for the laptop are, you could always go "bespoke" and have a laptop custom made to fit your needs.

That being said, like a bespoke suit, it's going to cost a whole lot more than something you just pick up from best buy.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

Casual_yet_trying said:


> Of course, no one says that you need to go OTR when buying laptops. Depending on what you intended uses for the laptop are, you could always go "bespoke" and have a laptop custom made to fit your needs.
> 
> That being said, like a bespoke suit, it's going to cost a whole lot more than something you just pick up from best buy.


https://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php?page=category_browse&selected_cat=10


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

I would have to recommend setting sights higher than entry level i3. An i5 would be my minimum starting point - with particularly now that Intel have launched their ulv variants for super thin and light laptops that don't cost the earth. Machines with latest chipsets will hit the consumer sometime mid Q3.

HD video and audio and now that Display Port and USB 3.0 is mainstreaming means power and performance specs are not about games anymore....


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Asterix said:


> I am an IT person who owns an IT consulting firm with over 15 technicians on my staff where hardware buying decisions are routine so calling my view crock because it doesn't fit your idea of recommendation is not what I'd call intelligent. Btw, Andy's short question was "_What laptop brand is good and how much memory_?" which is what I tried to answer as simply as possible. Andy would hopefully glean from all of us what would be best for him as he gets to make the final decision at the end of the day.


After some 15 years in e-commerce, I would tend to fall in with those who disagree with your blanket statement that "anything over $600 is a waste".


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> I don't care if you're the director of operations for HP's service and support center or the guy who puts the lug nuts on to the passenger-side wheels of cars in an automobile plant. I direct a certain amount of intelligence into forming _all_ my opinions, and telling me what your job is after the fact does not change the amount of intelligence I directed into an opinion I already formed. I still maintain that your statement "anything over $600 is a waste of money" is a crock.


Directing intelligence into your opinion (which as we all know like rear ends we all presumably walk around with one) has nothing to do with common sense which seems to be lacking in your case. Again, just because you have a differing opinion doesn't make you right or smart. It is just an opinion of mine so resorting to calling it crock shows you are not as intelligent or knowledgeable as you might want to present yourself as being.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> After some 15 years in e-commerce, I would tend to fall in with those who disagree with your blanket statement that "anything over $600 is a waste".


 Alexander, there is nothing wrong with your falling in line with them. The intelligent respondents (like you) who differed with my opinion weren't ignorantly insulting with their opposing view. The truth is a hard pill to swallow but my sympathies to those who have wasted their money buying overpriced/overspecced laptops for basic to moderate use (which is the case with many users) because they perceive that to being a sign of premium quality or just adolescent bragging rights.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Asterix said:


> Directing intelligence into your opinion (which as we all know like rear ends we all presumably walk around with one) has nothing to do with common sense which seems to be lacking in your case. Again, just because you have a differing opinion doesn't make you right or smart. It is just an opinion of mine so resorting to calling it crock shows you are not as intelligent or knowledgeable as you might want to present yourself as being.


It's ironic that what you complain about me doing, including "ignorantly insulting [you] with [my] opposing view" is something that you are doing yourself. You impugn my intelligence because I considered your opinion to be flawed, then act so high and mighty over being ignorantly insulted...It's amusing, it really is.

Your sympathies are wasted on me. I spent more than double your figure on a computer that wasn't bottom-of-the line, and I'm still using it today, more than two years later. It runs modern software just fine. From what I can tell, I expect it to still be useful for at least another year or two, with newer software. Can the same be said of a two-year-old laptop that cost $600 originally? Can it run Windows 7, and Adobe Photoshop CS5? If it _can_ run them, is it a pleasant experience? Here's another thought: My laptop developed an irregularly-shaped clump of dead pixels in one corner of the screen. The screen was replaced at no charge to me. I wonder if the same would have been true of a $600 laptop.

All I am saying is that it is possible to get more by spending more. If you got nothing else by paying more, I would agree with you that spending more is a waste. But the fact is that you _can_ get more, not just a faster CPU or more memory or a bigger hard drive.

In retrospect, I apologize for simply brushing aside your opinion without adequately explaining why I thought it was faulty.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> It's ironic that what you complain about me doing, including "ignorantly insulting [you] with [my] opposing view" is something that you are doing yourself. You impugn my intelligence because I considered your opinion to be flawed, then act so high and mighty over being ignorantly insulted...It's amusing, it really is.
> 
> Your sympathies are wasted on me. I spent more than double your figure on a computer that wasn't bottom-of-the line, and I'm still using it today, more than two years later. It runs modern software just fine. From what I can tell, I expect it to still be useful for at least another year or two, with newer software. Can the same be said of a two-year-old laptop that cost $600 originally? Can it run Windows 7, and Adobe Photoshop CS5? If it _can_ run them, is it a pleasant experience? Here's another thought: My laptop developed an irregularly-shaped clump of dead pixels in one corner of the screen. The screen was replaced at no charge to me. I wonder if the same would have been true of a $600 laptop.
> 
> ...


 My apologies also for responding in kind to your initial comments. You have done, in the comments above, what I expected of everyone of us which is to give our individual views (supporting or opposing) without being condescending of other's opinions.

Now on the valid issues you raised:
Yes a 2 year old $600 laptop can run Win 7, Adobe CS4 (since CS5 is not yet out) and still be fairly fast. One of the test mules I used for beta testing Win 7 actually actually ran faster with Win 7 than the Win XP it came with originally and it had the following specs: P4, 2.4ghz, 512mb, & 80gb Hard drive. Very few 2 year old $600 laptop running the most latest apps or OS should be faster than a brand new $600 laptop because components are automatically updated and the prices keeps dropping on those things.

So can someone enlighten me further as to what the average (basic to moderate use) user needs to add to this laptop besides what it has as standard features in other to function: https://www.tigerdirect.com/applica...?EdpNo=5590436&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

I just bought one of the new Dell Vostros and love it. Lots of memory and fast.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Good info here. 

Here's a status update. Originally my Dell 17" screen laptop's hard drive failed. My local computer repair place put in a new hard drive and got it working plus sent the original hard drive off to see if anything could be retrieved.

A few days afterward the old Dell with the new hard drive failed again. The computer repair is getting me a new one since it's under warranty (but I've lost some confidence!!!).

AND I have heard nothing from the original hard drive retrieval company.

So I'm waiting for word from both places!

Then I have to decide 1. New laptop or 2. try the repaired Dell or 3. Get a desktop but*

*If I get a desktop how to handle information files when I'm away using a laptop.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Andy said:


> Good info here.
> 
> Here's a status update. Originally my Dell 17" screen laptop's hard drive failed. My local computer repair place put in a new hard drive and got it working plus sent the original hard drive off to see if anything could be retrieved.
> 
> ...


First of all, backup, backup, BACKUP!.. one can't say this too often. Even if it's just to a USB stick or a DVD something. Data retrieval from crashed HDDs can cost thousands, all depending on what's failed with the HDD. Some companies have even gone out of business because they didn't have an effective backup policy in place.

You can always use a service like https://www.gotomypc.com/en_GB/entry.tmpl?Action=rgoto&_sf=4 for remote access to a desktop PC.

Dell's customer service from experience really sucks these days. Years ago it used to be second to none, but now it's been offshored to Hyderabad, India. One has to be very lucky to find a Dell support drone who can speak good English, and even then they're just following a script and have no real knowledge of PCs and trouble shooting. Same goes for most PC manufacturers.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Andy, based on that type of usage it's much better to take advantage of newer 'cloud' based service like drop.io or Windows Live SkyDrive - free, secure online storrage services for the files you need access anywhere. SkyDrive is really interesting as it offeres 25gb space and a maximum filesize of 50mb. I'm using both those services in one way shape or form and are great. Drop.io is best for sharing and SkyDrive best for personal storage. There are lots of other services like this out there - Apple's MobileMe for example, but I don't use.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

VictorRomeo said:


> Andy, based on that type of usage it's much better to take advantage of newer 'cloud' based service like drop.io or Windows Live SkyDrive - free, secure online storrage services for the files you need access anywhere. SkyDrive is really interesting as it offeres 25gb space and a maximum filesize of 50mb. I'm using both those services in one way shape or form and are great. Drop.io is best for sharing and SkyDrive best for personal storage. There are lots of other services like this out there - Apple's MobileMe for example, but I don't use.


I was going to suggest cloud based services, but these may not be accessible depending on where one is, and of course they rely on having an internet connection.

Things like Google Docs, drop.io and Windows Live SkyDrive are just not accessible at all here in China, probably because people are using them for stuff that the government doesn't agree with. Although Apple's MobileMe is accessible in China, so far.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Asterix said:


> Yes a 2 year old $600 laptop can run Win 7, Adobe CS4 (since CS5 is not yet out) and still be fairly fast. One of the test mules I used for beta testing Win 7 actually actually ran faster with Win 7 than the Win XP it came with originally and it had the following specs: P4, 2.4ghz, 512mb, & 80gb Hard drive. Very few 2 year old $600 laptop running the most latest apps or OS should be faster than a brand new $600 laptop because components are automatically updated and the prices keeps dropping on those things.


CS5 went on sale on April 30, 2010.

The fact is that a $600 computer will be obsolete sooner than a $1500 computer.

Your question about what needs to be added to the linked laptop for it to function is very clever. The answer, of course, is "nothing". I would expect it to _function_ right out of the box; I would not expect that retailer to sell me a non-functioning laptop. But by the same token, one could ask what needs to be added to a Chevy Cobalt in order for it to function? What needs to be added to a $20 pair of cap-toe dress shoes at Bargain Basement in order for them to function? Nothing and nothing. They both function already, just like a $600 laptop functions already. But are you going to get a Mercedes-Benz owner, or a Rolls-Royce owner, to agree that the Cobalt was a perfectly acceptable alternative? Are you going to get someone who wears Allen Edmonds or Edward Green to agree that the bargain basement special would have been just fine? No and no. Therefore, I continue to stick by my penultimate statement in my previous reply.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> CS5 went on sale on April 30, 2010.
> 
> The fact is that a $600 computer will be obsolete sooner than a $1500 computer.
> 
> Your question about what needs to be added to the linked laptop for it to function is very clever. The answer, of course, is "nothing". I would expect it to _function_ right out of the box; I would not expect that retailer to sell me a non-functioning laptop. But by the same token, one could ask what needs to be added to a Chevy Cobalt in order for it to function? What needs to be added to a $20 pair of cap-toe dress shoes at Bargain Basement in order for them to function? Nothing and nothing. They both function already, just like a $600 laptop functions already. But are you going to get a Mercedes-Benz owner, or a Rolls-Royce owner, to agree that the Cobalt was a perfectly acceptable alternative? Are you going to get someone who wears Allen Edmonds or Edward Green to agree that the bargain basement special would have been just fine? No and no. Therefore, I continue to stick by my penultimate statement in my previous reply.


This is really lurching off into absurdity.

You know that Asterix was merely asking what would need to be added to the computer in order to meet Andy's needs? Not will this computer turn on and "compute".

Let's please try to keep the thread at least moderately rational.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Relayer said:


> You know that Asterix was merely asking what would need to be added to the computer in order to meet Andy's needs? Not will this computer turn on and "compute".


No, I really do suspect that the word "function" was very cleverly chosen as a gambit to get someone--me, perhaps--to say "well it needs this, and that, and some other third thing". Even if I did overestimate the amount of cleverness that went into the wording of that question, I still believe the points I made were perfectly valid. Who really _needs_ the more expensive versions of anything, really? They're just nicer to have and more pleasing to use, and if extra comfort or pleasure is all we really get, then is it really a waste of money to spend more?


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> CS5 went on sale on April 30, 2010.
> 
> The fact is that a $600 computer will be obsolete sooner than a $1500 computer.
> 
> Your question about what needs to be added to the linked laptop for it to function is very clever. The answer, of course, is "nothing". I would expect it to _function_ right out of the box; I would not expect that retailer to sell me a non-functioning laptop. But by the same token, one could ask what needs to be added to a Chevy Cobalt in order for it to function? What needs to be added to a $20 pair of cap-toe dress shoes at Bargain Basement in order for them to function? Nothing and nothing. They both function already, just like a $600 laptop functions already. But are you going to get a Mercedes-Benz owner, or a Rolls-Royce owner, to agree that the Cobalt was a perfectly acceptable alternative? Are you going to get someone who wears Allen Edmonds or Edward Green to agree that the bargain basement special would have been just fine? No and no. Therefore, I continue to stick by my penultimate statement in my previous reply.


Thanks for the correction on the launch bit about CS5. 99% of fiscally intelligent software owners who currently have a laptop and for any reason want to get a new laptop wouldn't be in market shopping for the latest version of a software like CS5 just in other to work on the things they've been using CS4 for.

To a a limited extent, I'd agree that the so called $1500 laptop might not become as obsolete as a $600 would be within the same time frame but when you look at the price difference in financial sense if invested over time, you'd see that it makes more sense to save one's money and just buy another $600 laptop 3 yeas later than to have wasted $900 upfront just to own a laptop that might last a few months or a year more than the cheaper one. The reality is that in the world of computer technology, a system that was launched into the market yesterday would become obsolete by the end of the quarter because the newer ones released after them would make them obsolete.

As to your bit about 'function", Relayer has appropriately answered that. The only thing I'd add is an analogy of my own. Until this past April, I owned a W12 VW Phaeton (basically a Bentley Flying Spur lite) which was in every-way better than the 760IL or S600 when comparing apples to apples specs wise but I paid at least 30K less. For the brand name/badge freaks, that would be unimaginable but for the engineering and financially savvy people, it was a smart buy because I got all the bell and whistles the Benz or BMW owner got in their cars for less in a car that is actually better. Again I'll reiterate, inexpensive doesn't mean cheap or less quality.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Asterix said:


> Thanks for the correction on the launch bit about CS5. 99% of fiscally intelligent software owners who currently have a laptop and for any reason want to get a new laptop wouldn't be in market shopping for the latest version of a software like CS5 just in other to work on the things they've been using CS4 for.


I'm having a tremendous amount of difficulty identifying what it is you're trying to say here. First of all, 99% of people agree that statistics shouldn't be made up. But what is it you're saying? Are you saying that the average person doesn't want to upgrade their software at the same time that they replace their laptop? Not true; for some people, CS5 is the reason they're looking for a new laptop in the first place, because their old computer would be too slow for it to be comfortable. Also, you seem to imply that the people you're talking about already have CS4. Maybe they don't. Maybe they have CS3, or just Elements, or maybe they're first-time buyers. You also seem to be implying that if one has CS4, there's no reason to upgrade to CS5. Also not true, but that's a whole other conversation. To be honest, I'm just tossing these arguments out there, not really sure if they're going to your point or not, since I couldn't tell what it was to begin with.



> As to you bit about 'function", Relayer has appropriately answered that. The only thing I'd add is an analogy of my own. Until this past April, I owned a W12 VW Phaeton (basically a Bentley Flying Spur lite) which was in every-way better than the 760IL or S600 when comparing apples to apples specs wise but I paid at least 30K less. For the brand name/badge freaks, that would be unimaginable but for the engineering and financially savvy people, it was a smart buy because I got all the bell and whistles the Benz or BMW owner got in their cars for less in a car that is actually better. Again I'll reiterate, inexpensive doesn't mean cheap or less quality.


If a $600 laptop had the same "bells and whistles" as a $1500 laptop, or was in _any_ way better than a $1500 laptop (as you claim your Phaeton was compared to a 760iL or S600), then I never would have argued against more money being a waste of money. But the fact is that a $600 laptop is _not_ in any way better than a $1500 laptop* when "comparing apples to apples specs wise".

In any event, it seems that at this point we'll just go around in circles forever. You can maintain your point of view, that a $600 laptop is just as good as, maybe even better than, a $1500 laptop. Fine. I will maintain my point of view, that looking at the facts, a $1500 laptop is superior to a $600 laptop, not just today, but even more so in, say, 3 years from now. So if that's all either of us have to say about that, I'll agree to cease the redundant circling if you will.

* Notwithstanding the fact it is possible for a cheaper laptop to have an individual component that is better in some way than the related component in a more expensive laptop, although this would be at the relative expense of the other components.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> I'm having a tremendous amount of difficulty identifying what it is you're trying to say here. First of all, 99% of people agree that statistics shouldn't be made up. But what is it you're saying? Are you saying that the average person doesn't want to upgrade their software at the same time that they replace their laptop? Not true; for some people, CS5 is the reason they're looking for a new laptop in the first place, because their old computer would be too slow for it to be comfortable. Also, you seem to imply that the people you're talking about already have CS4. Maybe they don't. Maybe they have CS3, or just Elements, or maybe they're first-time buyers. You also seem to be implying that if one has CS4, there's no reason to upgrade to CS5. Also not true, but that's a whole other conversation. To be honest, I'm just tossing these arguments out there, not really sure if they're going to your point or not, since I couldn't tell what it was to begin with.
> 
> If a $600 laptop had the same "bells and whistles" as a $1500 laptop, or was in _any_ way better than a $1500 laptop (as you claim your Phaeton was compared to a 760iL or S600), then I never would have argued against more money being a waste of money. But the fact is that a $600 laptop is _not_ in any way better than a $1500 laptop* when "comparing apples to apples specs wise".
> 
> ...


Pardon my erroneous statistical use of "99%" instead of using "many" or "most" but most people (and even organizations) don't just upgrade applications because a newer one is now in the market or just because they have gotten a new hardware except it is a requirement for the newer system or an actual _need_.

Try building an identical laptop with the specs on the Acer i linked a few responses ago from a manuafacturer like Sony or Lenovo and see if the prices are the same. That is the reason for my Phaeton vs 760/S600 analogy. In some cases we pay more for perceptions or feel good than reality. My $199 seconds Allen Edmunds Shelton gives me just as good a service as my $400 Calfskin Alden Saddle Oxford shoes and if i take good care of both of them provided i use them similarly, they'd last almost for the same length of time.

Now if the above explanations still doesn't make sense to you, then I'd concede that we stop as you recommended so as to stop the redundant circles.

Btw, you didn't need to shrink your subtle disclaimer.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

It is clear to me now that we are participating in two different arguments. You are saying that if you can spend $600 for a computer, then spending more than $600 for the same computer is a waste of money. If the more expensive computer is identical in every way, including its reliability, warranty, and quality of customer service, then I agree. Meanwhile, what I have been saying is that you can't set an arbitrary limit of, say, $600, and state that any amount spent over that is a waste. It's a waste if you don't get more, sure, but all this time, what I've been saying is that you can, in fact, get more, and what you can get for more than $600 isn't completely useless or without value. In other words, I've been saying that what it's possible to get for more than $600 isn't worthless.

Completely off the point, but I don't believe I ever said that someone would get CS5 (or, in general terms, upgrade any software) just because they were also getting a new laptop. This might be why I didn't initially understand what you were saying, because I didn't see how it related to anything I said. What I said was basically that an older $600 laptop might not be able to run CS5 today as smoothly and quickly as a more expensive laptop (meaning: one that had a faster CPU, more memory, etc.) of the same vintage. The point was that spending more for a laptop now, if done wisely, will get you a laptop that will be useful longer than a $600 laptop. If the higher cost actually goes to faster/better components, and not just a name badge, the more expensive laptop will be less obsolete two or three years from now than the $600 laptop. And this was one of my main points.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

MikeDT said:


> I was going to suggest cloud based services, but these may not be accessible depending on where one is, and of course they rely on having an internet connection.
> 
> Things like Google Docs, drop.io and Windows Live SkyDrive are just not accessible at all here in China, probably because people are using them for stuff that the government doesn't agree with. Although Apple's MobileMe is accessible in China, so far.


Over here hi speed wireless internet is available everywhere so access is never a problem - it just gets sticky when roaming as costs are still very high. For now the cloud is great place for backup and for key stuff on the move.


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

General comment: How can you all argue about laptops? They are simply portable money pits. Look for reliability more than features.

Specific to Andy: Andy I suggest always have a desktop which stays synchronized with your laptop. The desktop is more reliable and backups are more convenient. You can also access the desktop from your laptop via the internet so that when you need to access the CAD design for that new jacket you want made it is only a click away. Also if you carry everything on a laptop and it gets stolen your life could get much more difficult. Thus only keep crucial info on the desktop and access it only when needed.

I won't even get into the "how much to spend" argument. One should get what one needs and that is all. A cheap machine might not be a bargain but an expensive machine probably has features you will never use (or even realize are present).


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> It is clear to me now that we are participating in two different arguments. You are saying that if you can spend $600 for a computer, then spending more than $600 for the same computer is a waste of money. If the more expensive computer is identical in every way, including its reliability, warranty, and quality of customer service, then I agree. Meanwhile, what I have been saying is that you can't set an arbitrary limit of, say, $600, and state that any amount spent over that is a waste. It's a waste if you don't get more, sure, but all this time, what I've been saying is that you can, in fact, get more, and what you can get for more than $600 isn't completely useless or without value. In other words, I've been saying that what it's possible to get for more than $600 isn't worthless.
> 
> Completely off the point, but I don't believe I ever said that someone would get CS5 (or, in general terms, upgrade any software) just because they were also getting a new laptop. This might be why I didn't initially understand what you were saying, because I didn't see how it related to anything I said. What I said was basically that an older $600 laptop might not be able to run CS5 today as smoothly and quickly as a more expensive laptop (meaning: one that had a faster CPU, more memory, etc.) of the same vintage. The point was that spending more for a laptop now, if done wisely, will get you a laptop that will be useful longer than a $600 laptop. If the higher cost actually goes to faster/better components, and not just a name badge, the more expensive laptop will be less obsolete two or three years from now than the $600 laptop. And this was one of my main points.


Glad you finally saw the light. :icon_smile_big: The 2 fundamental rules for debate....... know what the issue/point is first and understand your opponent's position before initiating an offensive.

The bit about the software was on the premise that you asked of how well newer software like Win 7 & CS5 would run on a 2 yr old $600 laptop and my response was that whoever owns the 2 year old most likely would have (Win XP/Vista and CS4) the tools/apps they are using for whatever the laptop was meant to serve as for them so most likely would not be buying upgrades except for a simple and cheap upgrade like Win 7 which would run much better and faster on any Win Vista specced Machine but if the person opts to buy the CS5, the laptop would more than adequately handle it.

Below are the required specs for running Adobe Creative Suite 5 Premium. Please tell me if the minimum specifications I recommended in my first posting on this thread are not more than adequate.


Intel® Pentium® 4 or AMD Athlon® 64 processor
Microsoft® Windows® XP with Service Pack 3; Windows Vista® Home Premium, Business, Ultimate, or Enterprise with Service Pack 1; or Windows 7
1GB of RAM
9.1GB of available hard-disk space for installation; additional free space required during installation
1280x800 display (1280x1024 recommended) with qualified hardware-accelerated OpenGL graphics card, 16-bit color, and 256MB of VRAM


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Asterix said:


> Glad you finally saw the light. :icon_smile_big: The 2 fundamental rules for debate....... know what the issue/point is first and understand your opponent's position before initiating an offensive.


Don't even try to go there. Your statement was, "Price (anything over $600 is a waste of money)." That's a blanket statement. You changed your argument later into something more like, "If you can get a laptop for $600, then spending over $600 is a waste of money." Your earlier statement simply says that anything over $600 is a waste of money, period. And on this, your original statement, I will continue to maintain my position that you can spend more, you can get more for having spent more, and what you get for spending more might be valuable to some or many people, and if it is, then it wasn't a waste of money for them.

I can use myself as a perfect example. I spent more than $600 for my laptop. For doing so, I got a better operating system (OS X), excellent customer support (though rarely needed), and a computer that was more than capable of running any software available at the time (for Mac or Windows) without problem or frustration. For the convenience, comfort, and pleasure that I got, I _know_ that the extra money I spent over $600 absolutely was not a waste. And that is why I struck out at your blanket statement. What you said was clearly meant to apply to all people in all situations, yet in my experience, it clearly didn't apply to me; therefore, I knew it was wrong. And I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.



> Below are the required specs for running Adobe Creative Suite 5 Premium. Please tell me if the minimum specifications I recommended in my first posting on this thread are not more than adequate.


"Minimum specifications" do not necessarily equal a pleasant experience, which is one of the terms I've used a few times in this thread. Perhaps you completely missed that, or perhaps you chose to ignore what I meant. I'm sure CS5 will run on any computer you can buy today. That doesn't mean someone that uses CS5 on a regular basis would _want_ to run CS5 on any computer available today. CS5 (as all versions before it) is very dependent on the computer's hardware. You can make an edit to a photo and wait two seconds for the preview to show you what it will look like, or 10 seconds. Spend more money, get better, faster hardware, have a more pleasant experience...gee, I feel like I'm repeating myself here.

Does anyone absolutely _need_ to spend more than $600 for a computer? No. Does not needing to spend more than that amount mean that if you do, you've wasted money? No. Period, the end, goodbye. You can keep quoting things I say and trying to rebut them all you want, and I will keep repeating what I've been saying all along, but why bother wasting any more time...Hah, time...that's really the only thing that's been wasted in this argument over what's a waste of money and what isn't.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

VictorRomeo said:


> Over here hi speed wireless internet is available everywhere so access is never a problem - it just gets sticky when roaming as costs are still very high. For now the cloud is great place for backup and for key stuff on the move.


The significance of cloud computing and the implications of putting stuff on the cloud. Really hit home for me last month, when I was spending a couple of weeks in a really rural village in Hunan province. Where I was attending a friend's wedding BTW.

Here there is just no internet at all, except for a rather makeshift internet cafe located in a barn, which has virus filled ancient PCs. Some of which may work if one is lucky, NO WiFi. In this village most inhabitants work in the fields, still wear Zhongshan suits(Mao suits) and ride old Flying Pigeon bicycles. Water comes from a hand pumped well, no paved roads, just dirt tracks. The majority of China is still like this, it's only the cities which have become westernised.

As a result of been in such situations my backup regime consists of storing one copy of my documents and photos on the laptop itself, and another duplicate on an external HDD, which is normally kept totally separate from the laptop.


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*Hooked on Gagets...*



Andy said:


> What laptop brand is good and *how much memory*?
> 
> THANKS


Your brain on computers... an interesting article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/technology/07brain.html?src=me&ref=general


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

lovemeparis said:


> Your brain on computers... an interesting article:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/technology/07brain.html?src=me&ref=general


very nice article Paris.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Well it looks like my Dell can not be repaired and all is lost (hard drive and memory), but they are replacing it with a new once since it was under warranty.

I should get it today. The new one has Windows 7 - so now all I need to do in re-install my passwords, favorites, all the software, e-mail (but I don't have any addresses now), etc.

Should be lots of fun!

Oh and yes I have a back up hard drive now - Alex made me buy one!!!


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Andy said:


> Well it looks like my Dell can not be repaired and all is lost (hard drive and memory), but they are replacing it with a new once since it was under warranty.


The best way to get a new computer--or a new anything, for that matter. Yay!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Andy said:


> Well it looks like my Dell can not be repaired and all is lost (hard drive and memory), but they are replacing it with a new once since it was under warranty.
> 
> I should get it today. The new one has Windows 7 - so now all I need to do in re-install my passwords, favorites, all the software, e-mail (but I don't have any addresses now), etc.
> 
> ...


Good Luck with it.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

THANKS for all the great advice.

The new computer is a Dell Inspiron 1564 with Windows 7. So far I like it. (but I'd like anything with "iron" in it! :icon_smile_big: )

Just the months ahead getting back my e-mail addresses, favorites, remembering passwords. And the Western Digital backup hard drive that Alex Kabbaz forced me into buying works great (thanks Alex!).

The good news is I get to start fresh with how I organize it and what new documents I add.


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