# "Kids these days"



## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

I always read the curmudgeonly threads here with interest. I'm on the pre-curmudgeon track, and I enjoy the quaintness. That said, I didn't always understand what you guys were talking about until recently. 

Some background: I'm 30 years old. I graduated from The Ohio State University in 2002, and I did some graduate work afterward that kept my in school until 2004-2005. I've kept close ties to my alma mater since, finding myself back on campus once a month or so, if not more often. So I've spent about twelve years now observing the sartorial habits of my fellow Buckeyes. 

OSU doesn't have the best reputation for style (once at a football game, I overheard someone mention that if wearing jean shorts was a Big Ten sport, we'd win the conference). But I've never felt out of place. I wear/wore a lot of OCBDs and khakis, brown shoes, solid-color sweaters, etc. Fairly basic stuff. I felt like I blended in pretty well, and I still see guys dressed like that. It doesn't seem to be that unusual. I even wore ties to class on days we had fraternity functions, and the only attention it attracted was from the young ladies. Yeah, there are guys who only own one pair of cargo shorts and wear them every day, and there are pajama wearers, and AmJacks, and whatever else, but overall, I've never thought trad/preppy/whatever is out of place on a college campus like some people on here seem to. 

In the past month, though, my girlfriend started graduate school at Washington University in St. Louis, and I've had the opportunity to accompany her to campus a few times. Not to be hyperbolic or anything, but I've been astonished at what I've seen. Now I understand what you guys mean when you criticize campus dress. There are NFL football jerseys everywhere. (And keep in mind, I'm coming from OSU, which has a reputation for its jersey fetish. I'm used to seeing a few jerseys here and there.) One day there were so many that I thought there might have been an organized "wear your NFL jersey" day. I don't think I've ever been to campus without seeing at least two NFL jerseys. I can only recall seeing a handful of button-down shirts. Not just tradly OCBDs, but any button-downs: low quality Abercrombie stuff, Hawaiian shirts, early-90s-esque unbuttoned flannel. I don't think I've even seen any polos. Tops here are exclusively t-shirts, hoodies, and NFL jerseys. I wore a bowtie here one day (which I used to do often in Columbus, without much ado), and people literally stared. 

I'm surprised. Wash U has a great, just-below-Ivy reputation, while OSU has a fairly modest reputation. Is OSU just a hidden gem, or is Wash U unusually bad? 

At any rate, what is it with kids these days? I'm officially a curmudgeon now.

-k


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

Sad to hear - I've been told St. Louis was one of the last bastions of dress standards. I can't stand the whole hoody thing. Of course, even in HS I wore stuff from the old American Eagle, home of cheap OCBDs and khakis, so I've always been out of touch with the mainstream, but casual wear seems to have hit a new low, indicative of a culture where we embrace anti-heroes.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Embrace your Curmudgeonhood!!

Live it!!


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## Henry346 (Oct 31, 2009)

At Washington and Lee we do not have Generation X, we have generation lex.

On the back of our school t shirts this year is the slogan "tradition not trend."

Suffice to say, relatively speaking I have seen no better dressed school, let it be college or even prep school.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

As a graduate from WashU (MA, 2002) allow me to argree with your general assessment, but with the qualification that there were/are always some of us "trad" types around campus we're just greatly outnumbered.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

It's my observation that the more selective the school's admission standards, the worse the students' standards of dress.

My oldest is a freshman at Ole Miss, so make of that what you will...

Scott


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Henry346 said:


> At Washington and Lee we do not have Generation X, we have generation lex.
> 
> On the back of our school t shirts this year is the slogan "tradition not trend."
> 
> Suffice to say, relatively speaking I have seen no better dressed school, let it be college or even prep school.


You may well be right, henry, though we had some impressive pics from Sewanee last spring. At any rate the best-dressed colleges in the US are surely from the Southeast.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Welcome to the must-iron side, Kevin.


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## Valkyrie (Aug 27, 2009)

> On the back of our school t shirts this year is the slogan "tradition not trend."


All of those who see the irony here, raise their hands.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

^ You mean things like driving down the highway and seeing a billboard on a store that reads "Come in and ask us about our unadvertised specials!"?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

kevinbelt said:


> I can only recall seeing a handful of button-down shirts. Not just tradly OCBDs, but any button-downs: low quality Abercrombie stuff, Hawaiian shirts, early-90s-esque unbuttoned flannel. I don't think I've even seen any polos. Tops here are exclusively t-shirts, hoodies, and NFL jerseys. I wore a bowtie here one day (which I used to do often in Columbus, without much ado), and people literally stared.


"Button-down" is the BD in OCBD. What you're talking about are just shirts! Sorry, I just get tired of people referring to every shirt with a buttoned placket as a button down. 

I hate to say it, but by wearing a bow tie you are pretty much inviting stares.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

Valkyrie said:


> All of those who see the irony here, raise their hands.


At the risk of being a non-curmudgeon, I LOL'ed.


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## Henry346 (Oct 31, 2009)

Valkyrie said:


> All of those who see the irony here, raise their hands.


 Nothing wrong with taking pride in being one of the last vestiges of true southern gentlemen.'

Although I am but a knave.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Jovan said:


> ...I hate to say it, but by wearing a bow tie you are pretty much inviting stares.


Rubbish. Your bow tie may give cause for someone to give you a second glance, but it is not an invitation to become the subject of a fixed, vacant wide-eyed look.


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

I was looking at some bow ties on the Cordial Churchmen the other day and the wife caught a glimpse. She set me straight right away.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Henry346 said:


> Nothing wrong with taking pride in being one of the last vestiges of true southern gentlemen.'


Plantation required?


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Pentheos said:


> Plantation required?


Yes, with lots of tasty squirrels.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Valkyrie said:


> All of those who see the irony here, raise their hands.


In the micrososm of a campus book store I see none.

If J Crew were selling it, there would be plenty!!


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Cardinals5 said:


> Yes, with lots of tasty squirrels.


Maybe southern squirrels are tastier than Wisconsin squirrels?


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

*Kevinbelt:*
Interesting observations.

Without being too tacky by asking dollar amounts may I inquire as to how many more years of student loans you have to pay off?

The reason I ask is becuase I recently found out that one of my cousins just graduated from Washington University with a liberal arts degree. Her Father told me that she left school with almost seventy thousand dollars in student loan debt,....:icon_pale:

As a forty nine year old who attended State University I had no idea that things had come to this.

My best,


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> The reason i ask is becuase I recently found out that one of my cousins just graduated from Washington University with a liberal arts degree. her Father told me that she left school with almost seventy thousand dollars in student loan debt,....:icon_pale:


She must have had a scholarship - yearly tuition at WashU is something like 37,000 + room, board, books, etc. WashU is pretty average in price for private liberal arts schools.


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## PeterW (May 14, 2004)

As Southerner in Charleston, SC, I believe the Southern college look gets too much credit around here. Yes, it might be better than some other college looks, but its rather annoying on the whole: flip flops, bad sunglasses (and even worse sunglass retention devices), bright polos, fishing accessories, and baseball caps and visors. 

Really, there is little worse on the streets anywhere than a gaggle of college boys in Charleston with blue blazers, ball caps, and flip flops.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

well-poised for a cool quarter million for 4 years, for class of '14 at a private college these days. is there any other business where increasing the price drives up demand?


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

PeterW said:


> As Southerner in Charleston, SC, I believe the Southern college look gets too much credit around here. Yes, it might be better than some other college looks, but its rather annoying on the whole: flip flops, bad sunglasses (and even worse sunglass retention devices), bright polos, fishing accessories, and baseball caps and visors.
> 
> Really, there is little worse on the streets anywhere than a gaggle of college boys in Charleston with blue blazers, ball caps, and flip flops.


why must you disillusion me like that?


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## 4dgt90 (Dec 2, 2009)

Take a stroll around Vanderbilt's campus. Ranked #17 academically on the US News & World Report.

By the way, how'd your son feel about the game two weekends ago?

Go 'Dores!



Naval Gent said:


> It's my observation that the more selective the school's admission standards, the worse the students' standards of dress.
> 
> My oldest is a freshman at Ole Miss, so make of that what you will...
> 
> Scott


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## jwlester (Oct 20, 2009)

While I only wear flip flops at the beach (and I'm not sure what you mean by bad sunglasses or fishing accessories) I take pride in my bright polos in spring and almost always have crockies or the like on my sunglasses when doing normal daily activities.

I also detest the sloppy "frat boy" look, but don't throw everything out with the bath water.

Josh


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

First off, congrats to your girl friend for getting into Wash U. No small accomplishment.

Having spent quite a bit of time on the Wash U campus over the last seven years I have to agree with your assessment that the students tend to dress pretty sloppily. I'm not sure but I think the fixation on t-shirts, cargo shorts, flip flops, fleece, sweatshirts, etc tends to be nearly universal on college campuses these days. Of course, the colder the weather the more clothing you'll tend to see (long pants, sweaters, jackets, etc.). But I don't think the Wash U students are the exception, I think they tend to be more representative of the norm...


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Cardinals5 said:


> She must have had a scholarship - yearly tuition at WashU is something like 37,000 + room, board, books, etc. WashU is pretty average in price for private liberal arts schools.


I'm out of the loop where the kid is concerned. The context of the conversation I had with her Father was that given her expected salary as an Elementary School Teacher and the fact that her student loan payments will be like a small mortgage I don't see how she'll be able to pay this thing off before she's in her fifties,.....


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Sad,

In 1983 my degree from U of Del in Overconsumption without Throwing Up cost me less than 5k!!


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Which is why I went state for undergrad and now law school!


127.72 MHz said:


> *Kevinbelt:*
> Interesting observations.
> 
> Without being too tacky by asking dollar amounts may I inquire as to how many more years of student loans you have to pay off?
> ...


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I think he means fishing shirts, not sure how those got trendy, and possibly croakies, which while acceptable on a boat, I suppose, serve little purpose on a sidewalk. I hope I'm not putting words in any mouths, though. I think this may now be the sloppy frat boy look; didn't the abercrombie version go out the door with American pie circa 2002?


jwlester said:


> While I only wear flip flops at the beach (and I'm not sure what you mean by bad sunglasses or fishing accessories) I take pride in my bright polos in spring and almost always have crockies or the like on my sunglasses when doing normal daily activities.
> 
> I also detest the sloppy "frat boy" look, but don't throw everything out with the bath water.
> 
> Josh


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

tdecast said:


> Take a stroll around Vanderbilt's campus...
> By the way, how'd your son feel about the game two weekends ago?


I think "The Grove was awesome" was the quote.

Scott


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## Henry346 (Oct 31, 2009)

hookem12387 said:


> I think he means fishing shirts, not sure how those got trendy, and possibly croakies, Whig while acceptable on a boat, I suppose, serve little purpose on a sidewalk. I hope I'm not putting words in any mouths, though. I think that may now be the sloppy frat boy look today. Didn't the abercrombie version go out the door with American pie circa 2002?


Personally I dislike fishing shirts, but croakies are totally fine.


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## PeterW (May 14, 2004)

Henry346 said:


> Personally I dislike fishing shirts, but croakies are totally fine.


And fish on belts and fish on ties and fish on caps.

Croakies are not totally fine in these circs: at night, indoors, backward around the neck, in an office, the classroom (at least not when I am a guest lecturer), or in all the inappropriate ways these young fellows wear them about.

Why dress well and then wear a piece of neoprene as a necklace?


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> well-poised for a cool quarter million for 4 years, for class of '14 at a private college these days. is there any other business where increasing the price drives up demand?


The fashion industry?


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## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

@DCLawyer: St. Louis in generally isn't particularly badly dressed. I've seen some nice tweed around town, and the thrifting is nice. It's just Wash U's campus that seems to be the problem.

@Quay: I've been a must-iron guy for a while now. It actually got me in trouble at work once. 

@Jovan: You bring up a good point. I knew that the BD in OCBD referred to the collar, but referring to shirts that button as "button-downs" has become common, and I didn't think anything of it. But as we're fighting to maintain standards here, your point is well-taken. Your point about the bowtie, though... The thing is, nobody stared at me in Columbus. Some people occasionally giggled, but that was about it. Every single woman I encountered made conversation with me though. 

@127.72MHz: My girlfriend is the student, not me. I don't know the exact amount, but it's enough to periodically set off mild panic attacks when she thinks about it. Personally, I've got enough debt from OSU - I don't need to add any private school debt on top of it.

-k


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## Wisco (Dec 3, 2009)

As a graduate school graduate of "Warsh U" (Ph.D. '97)... that's the way the local's say it, I would second the picture @kevinbelt paints. Granted I haven't been on campus regularly since then, but the undergrads that I taught in the 1990's were a motley crew. Not too many sports jerseys, though I'm surprised to see NFL wear in St.Louis which is not much on the Rams (NFL) but is much on the Cardinals (MLB).

Then again, the unknown to most of you is that a big chunk of the Wash U undergrad popultation is from LongIsland (it's one word when they say it:biggrin, upstate NY or around Philadelphia. Its not uncommon to see a sorority girl in her Saab convertible with NY license plates zipping along Kings Highway near campus. My point is, parts of the campus are damn near Jersey Shore meets deep fried ravioli (A St.Louis mainstay)!

I now live near the U of Wisconsin campus where the state of dress is casual approaching slob. Students get dressed up in the red colored stuff for Saturday game day, but enjoy flip flops and cargo shorts most other days. Winter is a little better as you need MORE clothing to stay warm, but the issue is not what they generally wear but rather that they don't generally care about their appearance. I guess it's a reflection of societal norms, so can't blame them for following along. Madison WI is a pretty "aging hippie granola town", so wearing anything more than Birkenstocks, North Face jackets and jeans is frowned upon :icon_headagainstwal


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Anything but blue blazers, ball caps, and flip-flops. That's still creeping me out: I know two kids at the college of Charleston, and I think they're capable of it.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Kevin, you may have just tarnished your curmudgeon credential by writing in the "Twitteresque style."


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Wisco said:


> As a graduate school graduate of "Warsh U" (Ph.D. '97)


Hey fellow alum - good to see another WashU grad around here.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Valkyrie said:


> All of those who see the irony here, raise their hands.


Love the feel of irony. Can't stand non-irony.

(rim-shot)


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## Wisco (Dec 3, 2009)

Cardinals5 said:


> Hey fellow alum - good to see another WashU grad around here.


Glad to be in your company sir... at least in our alma maters. Still working on achieving your sartorial standard.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

kevinbelt said:


> @DCLawyer: St. Louis in generally isn't particularly badly dressed. I've seen some nice tweed around town, and the thrifting is nice. It's just Wash U's campus that seems to be the problem.
> 
> @Quay: I've been a must-iron guy for a while now. It actually got me in trouble at work once.
> 
> ...


 Wait, how did being a must-iron guy get you in trouble? I simply must know.

I didn't mean to be harsh about the bow tie, but it's just one of those things that is viewed as being hopelessly archaic by some people, especially younger ones. I suppose Quay is right though. Stares, in the true definition, would be quite creepy (and rude).


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

I think people lie a lot on the internet. Not here necessarily, but in general. Anonymity is cover. I do the reverse. I'm a stinking liar in life, but rather a boy scout here, which is all to say I could have lied about the following, but decided to just bleat it out: _I've never heard of Washington University._ How dumb is that?


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

^^ No worries - lots of people in the Midwest have never heard of Colby.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Thank you. I read here where you went there and figured you'd pop up maybe wildly offended, and you did but you weren't so we're okay with this, right? It's a troika up here in Maine: Bowdoin, Bates and Colby. Private little Ivies. Snooty and nice. The total enrollment of all three is less than half that of that behemoth diploma factory you attended. I've been Googling.


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## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

I tend toward the rumpled end of must-iron, and my old boss occasionally determined I had taken "rumpled" a bit too far for work. I got an actual write-up out of it. 

-k


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Peak and Pine said:


> Thank you. I read here where you went there and figured you'd pop up maybe wildly offended, and you did but you weren't so we're okay with this, right? It's a troika up here in Maine: Bowdoin, Bates and Colby. Private little Ivies. Snooty and nice. The total enrollment of all three is less than half that of that behemoth diploma factory you attended. I've been Googling.


Bowdoin, Bates, and Colby - little red schoolhouses with a woodstove? Chalkboard tablets? I applied for a job at Colby a couple years back but they had the good sense to put my application in the circular file.

As for diploma factories - I also attended the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign  And, Drake University and the University of North Dakota. I've been around the block. That said, best education I ever received was summers hanging around in taverns with my Grandfather.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Cardinals5 said:


> She must have had a scholarship - yearly tuition at WashU is something like 37,000 + room, board, books, etc. WashU is pretty average in price for private liberal arts schools.


Nothing like a liberal arts degree for getting a "great" return on investment. What kind of job does that qualify you for? Just curious.


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## palmettoking (Jan 2, 2010)

Saltydog said:


> Nothing like a liberal arts degree for getting a "great" return on investment. What kind of job does that qualify you for? Just curious.


Theoretically, everything.


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## Beefeater (Jun 2, 2007)

Saltydog said:


> Nothing like a liberal arts degree for getting a "great" return on investment. What kind of job does that qualify you for? Just curious.


Good idea for a poll.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Saltydog said:


> Nothing like a liberal arts degree for getting a "great" return on investment. What kind of job does that qualify you for? Just curious.


Having a well-nourished soul? Not being a corporate minion?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Pentheos said:


> Having a well-nourished soul? Not being a corporate minion?


So, what about the ROI??


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

In the realm of sociobabble, I remember reading a survey that said that in a previous generation, when asked why they went to college, the majority said "to get an education;" now the usual answer is "to get a good job."


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## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

So true. My degree is in Greek history, and I'm currently unemployed (since moving to St. Louis a month ago). People are always telling me I should go back to school to learn more marketable skills. I always decline. Meanwhile, the public library is free, and stocked with Russell Kirk, Marcel Proust, C. Wright Mills, to name just a few books I have out right now. They do run low on Kierkegaard, though...

-k


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> In the realm of sociobabble, I remember reading a survey that said that in a previous generation, when asked why they went to college, the majority said "to get an education;" now the usual answer is "to get a good job."


A resurgence of the 80s MBA chic??


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Saltydog* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1148947#post1148947 
Nothing like a liberal arts degree for getting a "great" return on investment. What kind of job does that qualify you for? Just curious.



Pentheos said:


> Having a well-nourished soul? Not being a corporate minion?


I'm not sure if this is tongue in cheek if if you're actually serious,...

Your implication is that to avoid being a "Corporate minion" while also having a "well nourished soul" one must leave college owning $150K (+)?? (with very little if any possibility of ever prepaying that student loan money until one is geriatric.)

I think it's very possible to have a well nourished soul while not being a corporate minion and at the same time having selected a college major that will allow one to earn a living wage.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> I think it's very possible to have a well nourished soul while not being a corporate minion and at the same time having selected a college major that will allow one to earn a living wage.


My engineer friends keep reminding me they can read and write about history and literature better than I can engineer!!

(While driving a nicer car  )


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^

I didn't want to put it quite like that but it's nearly exactly what I was thinking.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

I am reluctant to wade into this discussion, in large part because it has strayed so very far from the topic of clothing. But, as a professor at a liberal arts institution, I'd like to step up and defend the liberal arts tradition (the oldest tradition in Western education) from its detractors on the forum.

The liberal arts offer broad training in reading, writing, and critical thinking, among other topics. To the poet and critic Matthew Arnold, this helps introduce students to the best that has been thought and said. Americans must see some value in this long-standing tradition of higher education, since colleges and universities that focus on liberal arts education are amongst the most prestigious institutions of higher learning in the country. 

The existence of more esoteric majors on a given college campus, additionally, is often a mark of that college's prestige. At Harvard, for instance, you can't major in plumbing or business, but you can major in Near Eastern languages and Sanskrit.

The large majority of students who major in a particular subject as college students never work a job in their lives directly applicable to that major. So what do they do? Well, in large part, they go out and get white-collar desk jobs. Or they head to professional schools. If majoring in, say, English were really a one-way ticket to life-long penury (as some on this thread imply), no one would ever do it. But students majoring in less obviously pragmatic subjects get jobs in various white-collar fields like everyone else. Do you really need to major in "consulting" to be a consultant when you graduate? No, you do not.

On a strictly pragmatic level, there is something to be said for a broad training in the liberal arts in this day and age. Given the great employment uncertainties in the contemporary world, it may prove best to have a broad training applicable to various areas, rather than narrow training in a field that may not last, or be hiring much in the future.

My apologies for such a longwinded post. Perhaps we can return to a discussion of clothing?


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I enjoyed my poli sci and philosophy background, and since I planned on attending law school the entire time, was certainly not set back at all by it.


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## Mr.K (Sep 20, 2010)

It is not surprising that the youth around you are so badly dressed. As I get older I am more disgusted by the youth around me in their baggy clothes and sloppy hair does. The sad thing is I am even more disgusted by many people in my age group, the late 30s that have not realized we are not teens anymore and it is time to grow up and start being examples to our children. I am so tired of the amounnt of women my age with neck tattoos and running around in short shorts thinking they still look good.


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## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

WouldaShoulda said:


> My engineer friends keep reminding me they can read and write about history and literature better than I can engineer!!
> 
> (While driving a nicer car  )


But can they? I'm always surprised by the levels of historical ignorance I see, even among "educated" people. It's shockingly hard for many people even to form a complete, coherent sentence, let alone write an thorough, well-organized, and well-reasoned analysis of something they'd only recently encountered.

Meanwhile, I have no doubt that, given some background and plenty of time to work through, I would be able to successfully solve an engineering problem. Indeed, one of my engineering-major friends once told me that the reason she chose engineering is because there are definitive right or wrong answers, unlike the humanities, where one could work on a problem indefinitely. It's just a matter of finding your way to the right answer.

Not to mention that Barack Obama majored in political science, both George Bushes majored in history, Bill Clinton majored in international studies, and Ronald Reagan majored in sociology. I'd be reasonably satisfied with the cars they drove.

This is certainly not the direction I anticipated this thread going, but I'm happy it did. This is a pet topic of mine.

-k


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

kevinbelt said:


> But can they?
> 
> Not to mention that Barack Obama majored in political science, both George Bushes majored in history, Bill Clinton majored in international studies, and Ronald Reagan majored in sociology. I'd be reasonably satisfied with the cars they drove.


YES!!

I would not drive my modest car over a bridge either one of them may have desighned or built!!


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ To Kevin and Sir Cingle:

*Your implication is that to avoid being a "Corporate minion" while also having a "well nourished soul" one must leave college owning $150K (+)?? (with very little if any possibility of ever prepaying that student loan money until one is geriatric.)*

*I think it's very possible to have a well nourished soul while not being a corporate minion and at the same time having selected a college major that will allow one to earn a living wage.*

^^ This is what was posted above and it led to your replys.

I did not read one individual who knocked the liberal arts education. (in terms of it's value to an individual)

The reason the thread even went in this direction was because it was mentioned that in my niece is facing overwhelming student loan debt and a Liberal Arts BA.

That's all. Any other aspects might have something to do with the two of you being overly defensive.

I stand by every word,...

*I think it's very possible to have a well nourished soul while not being a corporate minion and at the same time having selected a college major that will allow one to earn a living wage.*


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

kevinbelt said:


> Barack Obama majored in political science


That's what he says...

I kid.

Do I?

You'd think a bunch of guys interested in traditional American clothing would have a little respect for the humanities.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Remember this?



Saltydog said:


> Nothing like a liberal arts degree for getting a "great" return on investment. What kind of job does that qualify you for? Just curious.


That's a crack at liberal arts degrees, and this is what I and others are responding to.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

127.72 MHz said:


> *I think it's very possible to have a well nourished soul while not being a corporate minion and at the same time having selected a college major that will allow one to earn a living wage.*


Anything is possible. But the minions I know (including my niece with a MA in "HR") worry about getting over "hump day," can't wait for "TGIF," and think the Harry Potter novels are great literature. I guess I need to get to know different minions.


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## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

127.72 MHz said:


> Your implication is that to avoid being a "Corporate minion" while also having a "well nourished soul" one must leave college owning $150K (+)?? (with very little if any possibility of ever prepaying that student loan money until one is geriatric.)


I disagree. Although my student loan debts seem considerable to me, they're less than half that. That includes $20k of an ill-advised year of law school. Take that out and my education cost less than a third of the figure you quoted. And I wasn't being particularly thrifty. Indeed, I think it's quite possible, with good planning, to get an impressive education for less.



127.72 MHz said:


> I think it's very possible to have a well nourished soul while not being a corporate minion and at the same time having selected a college major that will allow one to earn a living wage.


What I do disagree with is your implication that majoring in the liberal arts will not lead to a job that pays a "living wage". I've lived rather comfortably, actually. I eat well, I dress well, I travel, I indulge my hobbies. When I lived in Ohio, I lived in arguably the nicest suburb in the state. Could I live even nicer? Perhaps. But I wouldn't consider myself impoverished, even if I haven't found a job since moving yet.

-k


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Saltydog said:


> Nothing like a liberal arts degree for getting a "great" return on investment. What kind of job does that qualify you for? Just curious.


 Was that remark really necessary? Just curious.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

To Bill:

If you look carefully, you'll notice that I didn't say anything about "corporate minions" or "well nourished souls." Please don't attribute others' comments to me. To be sure, liberal arts education isn't for everyone, and that's just fine. As a tradition pioneered by the ancient Romans that has existed in different forms for centuries, however, the liberal arts have great intrinsic merit.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Sir Cingle said:


> As a tradition pioneered by the ancient Romans that has existed in different forms for centuries, however, the liberal arts have great intrinsic merit.


...just not to the tune of 150K!!


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> ...just not to the tune of 150K!!


To you, education in the liberal arts is not worth that kind of money. To others, it is. To each his own.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Getting back to the clothes, College students have not been sartorial aware for some time. If I took you back 25 years you would see allot students wearing jeans and T-shirts. I went back and looked at my college year book and I say most of the clothing worn was uninspiring but of course what was not illustrated very well in the yearbook was a dueling reality of classic college kit. If you did not come to campus Khaki clad back then there was still hope, one could go back to the future so to speak embrace Khakis and button downs etc. Depending on were you went to school there was usually students modeling the look. What I do not think has changed is the desire on the part of some young men to embrace a traditional look. That is a positive. What I worry about a little is that some may have hit high curmudgeon to soon. When I think of the past we were allowed to embrace youthful brands like Polo and J. Crew along with our old favorites Bean and Brooks Brothers. I do not remember any hate or any cynicism directed at anyone in the trade. With the disappearance of local haberdashers and changes in old lines stores you folks have your work cut out for you so the INTERNET is an essential tool. When I think about a time before the INTERNET I have to admit we were a little naive but we seemed to fill our college years with parties and other social distractions.


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## jhr954 (Jun 11, 2008)

Henry346 said:


> At Washington and Lee we do not have Generation X, we have generation lex.
> 
> On the back of our school t shirts this year is the slogan "tradition not trend."
> 
> Suffice to say, relatively speaking I have seen no better dressed school, let it be college or even prep school.


So, Henry, you decided to go to school in Lexington. I hope you like it there as much as I did.
I sent you a PM.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Sir Cingle said:


> To you, education in the liberal arts is not worth that kind of money. To others, it is. To each his own.


I suspect those that have the 'rents pay, are given "easy-money" loans or have little appreciation for money are more likely to think so!!

You'd think some of that cash would be spent on something besides flip flops and PJs to go to class in!!


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Jovan said:


> Was that remark really necessary? Just curious.


If I remember correctly, I was basically just commenting on the fact that someone had left college with a liberal arts degree owing $70K in student loans. I was only attempting a bit of levity/irony on having the kind of loan debt that would stress someone with a professional degree. Obviously I failed in my lame attempt and opened up an unintended can of worms and defensiveness (methinks a bit too much protest and defensiveness). I have a great admiration for a well rounded education.

But if so many really have a problem with it...I will tell you that I did not have the privilege of parents to pay for my education...and worked my way through school. I graduated from the college of arts and letters but with a degree I actually had a passion for and pursued--and could pay off the very modest student loan I had to get since I couldn't afford a _private_ university. I took plenty of liberal arts courses in 
school but knew I had to make a living when I graduated. I have nourished my soul plentifully by constantly continuing to read, study and add to my academic education in the 40 years since I graduated from college. So please...none of that look down your glasses, joy of learning stuff. You took the remark too personally (perhaps my fault) and now want to turn this into a debate on academia vs. greedy corporate "minions".

Good grief. I best put a lid on it. I have to go to work tomorrow (and help pay taxes for those who don't.)


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## Henry346 (Oct 31, 2009)

jhr954 said:


> So, Henry, you decided to go to school in Lexington. I hope you like it there as much as I did.
> I sent you a PM.


I have not recieved a PM from you? Unless you mean the one quite a few months ago.

That being said, and I hate to come off as elitist or snobby, but those who opt for an elite liberal arts education (I cannot speak for the value of a lower ranked liberal arts school) generally can afford to shoulder the debt. I am incredibly fortunate in that my parents are paying my way through college and that applies to all of my friends here as well. That being said, at least in the Southern liberal arts schools, what we lack in the large career services of a university of like prestige, we make up for in the sheer power and influence of our fraternities. A fiji was telling us about how an old fraternity president has offered the brothers any job they wanted in DC over the summer at his law firm.

Furthermore, you are only as limited as what you wish to study. I could major in something nonmarketable in NYU as well and have a similarly hard time finding a job. I am currently looking into economics and Business so I consider myself fairly marketable after some experience. It all comes down to how you treat and approach the liberal arts college experience.


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## Beefeater (Jun 2, 2007)

I honestly think it is up to the individual and has less to do with the degree. 

My wife and I both have L.A. Degrees from UT-Austin. She went to law school and is a corporate executive. I bounced around a bit and ended up in management at a financial services company. There was some luck along the way to be sure, and it's a tougher market than when we both began our careers. Neither she nor myself have felt less equipped for our jobs/careers by not having pursued another course of study. 

As to the cost, it has risen astronomically compared to when we both attended. Of course, I also worked summers doing odd jobs and worked for several professors on campus as well during semester to earn extra income. My wife worked throughout undergraduate school at about every retail job imaginable. I avoided credit cards like the plague (unlike many friends) and paid off my student debt (Perkins Loans) in about 3-4 years after undergraduate school. My wife is set to pay off her law school debt this year, about 8 years after graduating from law school.


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## pseudonym (Aug 1, 2010)

I've held my lip for a while, but as someone said earlier, it's surprising to see this discussion even taking place here at all. A liberal arts education is not for everyone, though neither is an engineering or vocational education. We should stop interpreting each others' words in extremes.

However, as a liberal arts student myself, I can't help but take umbrage at some things that have been said, namely those that seem to paint me and my classmates as naive, spoiled, sloppy, moneyed brats. Yes, there are people at my school whose parents are quite wealthy, but that is not the case for the majority. I'm paying my own way through college with loans, two jobs, and a heaping of financial aid grants, and the fact is, this is the norm for many liberal arts students. We work hard because we love learning. And don't think we don't know what we're doing. We're doing what we're doing because we think it will lead - not to a six-figure salary (though that would be nice)- but to a richer, more fulfilling life.

Let me just reiterate that this path isn't for everyone. If you think you'll be happier and better prepared for life with an engineering degree, go for it! Just don't knock our choice, especially for reasons as trivial as money, and most importantly, don't knock us personally.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Going back to the OP's initial observations, it appears to me that the current youth sartorial culture is based on being ready, at all times, to join some sort of athletics in progress or to join _the band _on the road. The clothes are practically throwaways when new, and in most cases some sort of advertisement, for the merchant (A&F, Nike) or a musical group. A message of "willingness to participate in..." is apparently being communicated, but just what, the deponent knoweth not.


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## frosejr (Mar 27, 2010)

phyrpowr said:


> The clothes are practically throwaways when new, and in most cases some sort of advertisement


I am amazed at the willingness of people to advertise someone else's product, and pay money to do it. I guess it's not much different than wearing sports team clothes, since they've essentially become corporations, but that seems different. Wearing something branded "Nike" seems cheesy to me.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

A liberal arts education seems to be the best preparation for later sartorial accomplishment.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Ironically, I resemble that remark.


The Rambler said:


> A liberal arts education seems to be the best preparation for later sartorial accomplishment.


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## DoghouseReilly (Jul 25, 2010)

kevinbelt, where have you gone thrifting in St. Louis? I've been around to a few places, but only with limited luck.

About Wash U, is it possible that it was during finals week? When I was in school, it wasn't an uncommon sight during certain times of the semester. Most of the kids stayed up way too late the night before. Studying, I assume. That's all kids do at college, right?


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## southernstunna (Mar 14, 2007)

Having graduated from Ole Miss this past July, I can completely understand where the opening poster is coming from. The kids my freshman year (2006-2007) at college were dressed significantly better than the freshman class of 2014. I have gone to visit my little brother at the University of Texas on a multitude of occasions and it is embarrassing to see some of the stuff his friends wear. Additionally, several of his friends have commented on his Sperry's, calling them "aarp shoes."

That being said, a lot of the "southern fraternity guys" in the South do not dress what is known here as "trad" at all. 99 percent of the guys in my fraternity wore pleats, and almost as many wore cuffs. The main that I saw in Mississippi that I do not see here in Austin is the short shorts. People definitely look at me strangely when I wear my 5 inch inseam shorts in Texas haha.


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

Not all schools have poorly dressed students. St Ignatius High School in Cleveland OH is as trad as they come. The dress code is khakis, long sleeve dress shirt and a tie every day. They have several days a month where they have to wear the obligatory navy blazer.


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## mlongano (Feb 3, 2010)

A fellow Clevelander I see...I graduated from Elyria Catholic many moons ago. We also wore ties every day to school. When I started as a freshman at Bowling Green State University in the summer of '69 I can assure you that I never wore a tie! In fact we looked like slobs.

In 1974 when I completed my undergraduate degree at Cleveland State I started wearing suits and ties to work every day, and I still do today. I guess my point is that what an 18 year old student wears to college is not necessarily indicative of what that same person may wear as a productive member of adult society.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

That's interesting regarding the shoes since I've often thought 30% of campus must own nothing else other than sperrys. As for the shorts, people just want your pale thighs hidden  (I kid). Austin is drinutelu more granola than trad, but campus is filled with polo shirts, fishing shirts(ughh), rainbows and sperrys.


southernstunna said:


> Having graduated from Ole Miss this past July, I can completely understand where the opening poster is coming from. The kids my freshman year (2006-2007) at college were dressed significantly better than the freshman class of 2014. I have gone to visit my little brother at the University of Texas on a multitude of occasions and it is embarrassing to see some of the stuff his friends wear. Additionally, several of his friends have commented on his Sperry's, calling them "aarp shoes."
> 
> That being said, a lot of the "southern fraternity guys" in the South do not dress what is known here as "trad" at all. 99 percent of the guys in my fraternity wore pleats, and almost as many wore cuffs. The main that I saw in Mississippi that I do not see here in Austin is the short shorts. People definitely look at me strangely when I wear my 5 inch inseam shorts in Texas haha.


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## erbs (Feb 18, 2008)

The Rambler said:


> A liberal arts education seems to be the best preparation for later sartorial accomplishment.


+1 Especially as a trad professor.


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> Anything is possible. But the minions I know (including my niece with a MA in "HR") worry about getting over "hump day," can't wait for "TGIF," and think the Harry Potter novels are great literature. I guess I need to get to know different minions.


I think that this is a self-selection issue. The kids who would like to major in a liberal arts subject would probably still enjoy reading and thinking in their free time anyway, regardless of what they majored in.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Hayek said:


> I think that this is a self-selection issue. The kids who would like to major in a liberal arts subject would probably still enjoy reading and thinking in their free time anyway, regardless of what they majored in.


Indeed. Some of the best read most educated people I know don't even have degrees. Education is a lifelong pursuit to those who love learning. This idea that one has to choose between learning a marketable area of skill and having a "well-nourished soul" and wide range of learning is, I suspect, put forth by those who apparently lack the will to do both.


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## kevinbelt (Dec 2, 2007)

I ventured back to campus this afternoon to catch a talk with Nicholas Kristof of the Times. Even more interesting than before. Today, despite temperatures in the 50s, the trend was tank tops. For men, just to clarify. I don't remember the last time I'd seen a tank top on a guy, but I saw four or five today. Most unusual. I did observe a pink uni-stripe OCBD under a navy shetland (albeit with jeans). Perhaps unsurprisingly, the student was Japanese. I wouldn't call the foreign students well-dressed, but they're consistently better than the Americans. The Americans seem to be too busy blow-drying their hair (another oft-observed trend among WUSTL undergraduate males). 

Also, when did flip-flops become a year-round thing? I've gotten used to seeing them in summer. Some people are just too excited by the prospect of exhibiting their toe 'fro to restrain themselves, but seriously? It's cold. Wear shoes. 

-k


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

So true, Salty. One of the best-read fellows I know (in contemporary lit at least) is not among the faculty in my English department; he is a maintenance man for the grounds crew.

Wendell Berry has had some choice things to say about structured education and its myth of value addition.


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## caravan70 (Mar 18, 2010)

I think it's just a general societal change. I went to one of the "little Ivies" back in the late 80s/early 90s, and the standard uniform was a sweatshirt and jeans. I always believed that it was a sort of reverse aspirational thing - dress down and you won't look like a trust fund baby. It was the opposite when I was taking some post-graduate classes at a state university in California a few years later - many of the students "dressed up" in an attempt to look professional, but they didn't really know how to do it. Ill-fitting suits, cheap shirts and shoes, etc. I would attribute some of that to income questions, but I think most of it was that no one really taught them how to dress. There's a sort of sartorial legacy that's being lost in this age - no one really cares anymore, and that lack of interest is passed on to kids.

I can't speak from personal experience about attire on college campuses these days - but I do believe that in the general culture there's been a dumbing-down all around, and that's reflected in the way that people dress and choose to comport themselves. Dressing well is a matter of respect for yourself and for the people around you, and when that respect is missing it's a much larger issue than sartorial choice.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I agree with you mostly, but disagree with the notion that not knowing how to dress is indicative of a much larger issue.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Jovan said:


> I agree with you mostly, but disagree with the notion that not knowing how to dress is indicative of a much larger issue.


The egalitarian in me would like to believe this is true; that people are capable of aspirational deeds while cloaked in rags, but I see no evidence to support this. Participating in society and commerce is becoming a harrowing experience whether it's trying to avail yourself of the "expertise" of a salesperson or striking up a conversation in a bar. People have been bred into sociopaths and solipsists to such an extreme that courtesy, empathy, or even basic respect of those around you have evaporated. The attire that people choose is just one indicator of this inward turn indicating that the only thing that should matter is your own slovenly comfort.

Get a job, hippies.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Trip English said:


> Get a job, hippies.


I love you, man!! :icon_cheers:


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Oops there's still a few drops of rant in the carton...

Many of our members are old enough to have lived through a time when you had to wear a hat and a white apron to serve hamburgers. While it was a gimmick, of course, to indicate cleanliness it was also a message that you were not to screw around at work. You were to take whatever your immediate task was seriously. I'm not saying that poor dress caused any of this, in fact I suspect it was the other way around. At some point you look out from your manager's desk over the goofballs, les miserables, and walking dead and think, "why am I bothering to make these numbskulls wear ties? MARCH IS PAJAMA MONTH!"


GET A JOB SIR!!!


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

...And the William F. Buckley Award for Arcane Vocabulary goes to Trip English for his masterful use of "solipsists" as imagery.

Well done, sir! (I had to look it up).

Scott


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Thanks NG, The WFB awards are my favorites.


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## Trotsky1940 (Jul 5, 2010)

mlongano said:


> A fellow Clevelander I see...I graduated from Elyria Catholic many moons ago. We also wore ties every day to school. When I started as a freshman at Bowling Green State University in the summer of '69 I can assure you that I never wore a tie! In fact we looked like slobs.
> 
> In 1974 when I completed my undergraduate degree at Cleveland State I started wearing suits and ties to work every day, and I still do today. I guess my point is that what an 18 year old student wears to college is not necessarily indicative of what that same person may wear as a productive member of adult society.


Graduated from BGSU in 2000 and again with Masters in 2003. Good to see another Falcon alum!

I dressed like crap throughout college, hell, way up until 2005 when I started wearing Sweater Vests, decent shirts and khakis. Add a good Tennessee thrift store and BAM! I started to care about what I wore.

I see younger guys _trying_ to dress well. I did run a "how to get a job" class at Ohio University a few years back with a section on how to dress. The young guy uniform for any "dress-up" occasion seems to be black trousers and a dark blue shirt, sans tie. They're trying, at least.


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## inq89 (Dec 3, 2008)

I'm 21 and in a grad program (got in early) and we have a required business dress code. A lot of my peers dread it but I use it as an excuse to dress up "tradly" which we all love to do, without any out-of-the-place looks. OCBD, surcingle, and chinos during the warmer months and OCBD, shaggy, and corduroy in the winter. I've been told several times that I dress very well. I've posted a few of my pictures in a thread I made around here.

I go to school in NC, so I've seen some tradly young men with southern trad and all. There are a few private campuses in this state that equate to what you'd see at W&L or Ole Miss. Wish I went to those universities sometimes to be among the like-minded!


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## DocVenture (Sep 30, 2010)

At University of Maryland in the mid 00's, standards of dress were poor. Sweatshirts with sweatpants were dismayingly common, generally matched with a backwards "Abercrombie" baseball hat. 

No thanks!

I tried to keep things fairly neat (shirts and chinos most of the time), as did some others, but on the whole we were a sloppy bunch.


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## yossarian (Apr 17, 2007)

A question for the professors on the forum. How do you dress when you teach? My wife is a professor at a liberal arts college in NY and she says that most of the male professors wear suits when they give lectures. I was quite surprised. I figured there would at least be some tweed in the fall. But she said not much. I went to Cornell as an undergrad, and I don't remember many suits at all, only with some of the older professors. But I also don't remember much tweed, also except with the older professors (and I graduated in 1993). There was a lot of what ended up as business casual wear -- khaki chinos and a button down, sometimes with a tie. I went to law school in NYC and that was even more casual, except for the adjunct professors. But they were coming from their law firms and business casual did not exist yet at those firms.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
As one who has occasionally served as an adjunct professor at five different universities, I've alway worn a suit or at the very least a sport coat and dress slacks when in the classroom. I cannot say, in all instances, that the full time staff maintained that standard! Although, it seemed that some did.


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## jwlester (Oct 20, 2009)

southernstunna said:


> That being said, a lot of the "southern fraternity guys" in the South do not dress what is known here as "trad" at all. 99 percent of the guys in my fraternity wore pleats, and almost as many wore cuffs. The main that I saw in Mississippi that I do not see here in Austin is the short shorts. People definitely look at me strangely when I wear my 5 inch inseam shorts in Texas haha.


Pleats are just a southern thing and I would think cuffs are very "trad". Do a search for all the arguments over "southern trad".

I'm not surprised, but it gave me a chuckle to read about Texans looking at you funny in short shorts.

I'm just glad there is somewhere like AAACT for information and thrifty resources. "Changing the world, one man at a time."

Cheers, Josh


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

yossarian said:


> A question for the professors on the forum. How do you dress when you teach? My wife is a professor at a liberal arts college in NY and she says that most of the male professors wear suits when they give lectures. I was quite surprised. I figured there would at least be some tweed in the fall. But she said not much. I went to Cornell as an undergrad, and I don't remember many suits at all, only with some of the older professors. But I also don't remember much tweed, also except with the older professors (and I graduated in 1993). There was a lot of what ended up as business casual wear -- khaki chinos and a button down, sometimes with a tie. I went to law school in NYC and that was even more casual, except for the adjunct professors. But they were coming from their law firms and business casual did not exist yet at those firms.


Just check out the What Are You Wearing Thread - quite a few regular posters, including myself, are professors/teachers/educators.


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## Repp Stripe (Oct 6, 2010)

Trip

Of the Lebowskis I'd much rather be The Dude.

It's foolish to judge so seriously a man's essence by his external appearance.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Repp Stripe said:


> Trip
> 
> Of the Lebowskis I'd much rather be The Dude.
> 
> It's foolish to judge so seriously a man's essence by his external appearance.


Get a job, hippie.


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## Repp Stripe (Oct 6, 2010)

Ha!

Oh, I've got one. But, honestly, I'd love to be in the position to not have one.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

This isn't 'nam. There are rules.


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