# Muslims in Europe & America



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

this is an interesting web page.

The video is very revealing about intentions from there own voices, and what they think and will do to nonparticipant Muslims. They even try to explain away child rape as though it is not child rape.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

The 48 minute video is from a news chanel in England. What is shown is what radical Muslims are saying that an undercover agent of some sort filmed.


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Not sure why they're in the West to begin with.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

WA,

Given your ignorance about Catholicism (and your comments about Catholicism in a private message to me) I can't take anything you say about any religion seriously. Perhaps if you find a cure for cancer or are off to Stockholm to accept a Nobel Prize this forum will again listen to what you have to say. And then again perhaps not.

Karl


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> WA,
> 
> Given your ignorance about Catholicism (and your comments about Catholicism in a private message to me) I can't take anything you say about any religion seriously. Perhaps if you find a cure for cancer or are off to Stockholm to accept a Nobel Prize this forum will again listen to what you have to say. And then again perhaps not.
> 
> Karl


Karl I sent you a private message about what Catholics have told me about RC, and they are all different, except for a couple, and they are in conflict with each other and you can't answer my simple question as to which RC view is correct or how these views fit together? The best you can do to hide your stupidity is by knocking me because you can't' answer the question?

This video is not about moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are like any other religion, such as Buddish and Hindues of which I have worked with and are very decent people. This video is about terrorist Muslims that intend great harm to the West. If you like bacon and pork and these people win, then you will never eat these foods again (just look at countries that are Muslim controlled). Even Kav didn't watch the video, because he is writting about stuff that is not even in the video. So, the thread is already hijacked.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

WA,

You sent me a PM saying that Catholics were banned from having a bible in their house before JFK and that some Catholics had told you that the Pope invented God - and you really have to ask me if these things are accurate? Are you that naive? Wait, don't answer that.

I can easily answer the question but as you have demonstrated many times the truth doesn't matter to you. You simply are an ignorant man, seeped in bigotry, who is at war with reason and logic.

WA, you are an unlikely person to make common cause with Sartre, but you certainly prove his maxim, "L'enfer, c'est les autres."

Karl


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> WA,
> 
> You sent me a PM saying that Catholics were banned from having a bible in their house before JFK and that some Catholics had told you that the Pope invented God - and you really have to ask me if these things are accurate? Are you that naive? Wait, don't answer that.


I have know idea how old you are. But I have heard it from more than one person about Bibles being banded from the Homes of Catholics (that is what I meant to ask you about). Even picking up the neigbors mail, because it ended up in the wrong mail box and two Catholic publications said that Catholics are not to read the Bible except under thier strick supervision, so even though they can have the Bible in the house these days they are not suppose to read it alone. Maybe I'm wrong that Catholics couldn't have a Bible in the house pre JFK- I only asked.



> I can easily answer the question but as you have demonstrated many times the truth doesn't matter to you. You simply are an ignorant man, seeped in bigotry, who is at war with reason and logic.
> 
> WA, you are an unlikely person to make common cause with Sartre, but you certainly prove his maxim, "L'enfer, c'est les autres."
> 
> Karl


Ignorant man I may be, nobody knows everything. Seeped in bigotry I am not, but those that throw that concept around usually are. Reason and Rationale I've seen people try to use, and break every rule to get what they want. Logic is a whole nother word, isn't it? Sartre is not in the Bible, so I could care less what he says.

Karl I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, and I'm sorry I did. I hear people say things about what I believe in that are just plain wrong, but they heard a litttle here and a little there and they are trying to make since of it (and a since of humor keeps ones head above anger). I too can only ask about what I have heard from Catholics and what I asked you about is what they said. Since you say I have no right not to know what correct Catholics believe, so as not to be ignorant, then that would apply to you about Pentecostals concerning about what they believe in in order for you not to be ignorant. Everybody is ignorant in this world-Who can know it all.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Old Brompton said:


> Not sure why they're in the West to begin with.


Greed to take over?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

WA said:


> I have know idea how old you are. But I have heard it from more than one person about Bibles being banded from the Homes of Catholics (that is what I meant to ask you about). *Even picking up the neigbors mail, because it ended up in the wrong mail box and two Catholic publications said that Catholics are not to read the Bible except under thier strick supervision, so even though they can have the Bible in the house these days they are not suppose to read it alone. *Maybe I'm wrong that Catholics couldn't have a Bible in the house pre JFK- I only asked.


First of all, you read your neighbor's mail? And second, where is your proof of this? Instead of spouting off lies that you supposedly heard from Catholics, why don't you go pick up a copy of the Catholic catechism and find out what their beliefs are for yourself?

For the record, I am Lutheran, but I know enough Catholics to realize how foolish it is to believe that the church forbids them to read the Bible.


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## Mujib (Jan 8, 2006)

[What is shown is what radical Muslims are saying that an undercover agent of some sort filmed.]

Actually, what are shown are snippets of edited footage.

Mosques are always open to everyone, so the undercover camera effect is a really absurd.

It's unfortunate that any intelligent reader would put forth this video for anything other than exposing its absurdity. And it is even more unfortunate that you've titled your thread "Muslims in Europe & America."


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Mujib said:


> [What is shown is what radical Muslims are saying that an undercover agent of some sort filmed.]
> 
> Actually, what are shown are snippets of edited footage.
> 
> ...


Mujib you came back, but you never answered any of my questions in another thread or two.

There are a number of Muslims that have come West to get away from those that spoke in that video. And they were even mentioned in that video as not worthy to be Muslims.

'Actually, what are shown are snippets of edited footage.'

These snippets speak clear enough, don't they? If those snippets were a lie then there would be no war in Iraq or anywhere else in the Middle East.

Opium grown by Muslims for addiction is like stabbing people in the back isn't it? What good religion allows that? Can't be a Christian and do that.

So, which is it? The nonpeaceful Muslims are the real Muslims? Or, the peace loving Muslims are the real Muslims? Is it real Muslims that blew up those buses in England or non Muslims? And then there is the train in Spain and other problems elsewhere, too, under the name Islam. So your religion is very troubleing to me. Can you explain?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> First of all, you read your neighbor's mail? And second, where is your proof of this? Instead of spouting off lies that you supposedly heard from Catholics, why don't you go pick up a copy of the Catholic catechism and find out what their beliefs are for yourself?


When you take mail out of your own mail box you assume that it is your own. And one was a large pamplet from the local Catholic Church that said, probably with these exact words 'you are not to read the Bible except under our strick supervision'. Why wouldn't I believe their own pamplet?



> For the record, I am Lutheran, but I know enough Catholics to realize how foolish it is to believe that the church forbids them to read the Bible.


I guess that if I'm supposed to believe that everybody that tells me something about Catholics is lying, I guess that would make you one, too. A pm to somebody else- why are you involved with this? If he had sent me a pm with questions I would have answered them with a pm. Is that unreasonable?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I also don't believe that Catholics are forbidden to read the Bible. I'm Lutheran, but one of my closest friends is Catholic, and she knows the Bible as well as anyone. She reads it and she is a devout Catholic.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

WA said:


> Greed to take over?


No, that was why we Europeans were in the East. We also went west for the same reason.

The Muslim are in the West because they can find better paid work, better housing, better medical care, and more security than they have back home, quite simply. Same reason Italians, Irish, Poles etc., crossed the Atlantic.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

WA, if I was you I would start worrying about your choice of friends (and any others) that you are getting your information from. Their ignorance and prejudices are appalling.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

KenR said:


> WA, if I was you I would start worrying about your choice of friends (and any others) that you are getting your information from. Their ignorance and prejudices are appalling.


I have to agree with KenR, WA. There has *never *been a prohibition concerning Catholics reading the Bible. After all, we picked the Gospels in the first place.:icon_smile_wink:

If you'd like, why don't you post all the "information" like the above you've received from these people you know about the Catholic Church and we'll review it for accuracy for you.


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## narticus (Aug 24, 2006)

yachtie said:


> After all, we picked the Gospels in the first place.:icon_smile_wink:


I hope the Orthodox Church doesn't find out that the RC picked them.:icon_smile_wink:


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

narticus said:


> I hope the Orthodox Church doesn't find out that the RC picked them.:icon_smile_wink:


Shhhh! (LOL)

Actually we were together at that time.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I deleted my earlier posts because this rehashed thread is without merit. I do think a clarification is in order. The 'Great Schism' between the Patriarch of Rome and the other Patriarchs was over the filioque, a theological disagreement over the nature of the Trinity and Rome assuming a preeminence over the other Patriarchs. The Gospels had already been determined by the one, united, apostolic catholic church. There are in addition a number of 'apocrypha' or books not included but available for study today in such editions as the Oxford Press. That the Bible, both old Testament and Gospel, a work of both God and Man can, and is translated for better or worse with the danger of misinterpretation if not outright deliberate modification is fact. I fully expect a Rap version soon " De Man sent Jesus, to our 'hood,' the homies said bro, this is good. 3 Puerto Ricans came hustling bling bling; kilo of good frank and gold and silver chains- wakka wakka wakka. Makes about as much sense as the stuff I've read here. One of the old grievances between Rome and the Eastern Churches was the 'behaviour' of Crusaders passing through eastern lands enroute to the Holyland. It would seem WA is repeating that same folly marching on the 7/11 convenience store owned by Sulieman the Sufi in Seattle.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Kav said:


> I deleted my earlier posts because this rehashed thread is without merit. I do think a clarification is in order. The 'Great Schism' between the Patriarch of Rome and the other Patriarchs was over the filioque, a theological disagreement over the nature of the Trinity and Rome assuming a preeminence over the other Patriarchs. The Gospels had already been determined by the one, united, apostolic catholic church.


Actually, the preeminence of the Bishop of Rome as the See of Peter was agreed to before Nicaea (300's). The great Schism in the 1000's was over a number of things, the greatest of which was the caesaropapism of the Eastern Sees, although _filioque _was given as a theological basis of the schism.



> One of the old grievances between Rome and the Eastern Churches was the 'behaviour' of Crusaders passing through eastern lands enroute to the Holyland. It would seem WA is repeating that same folly marching on the 7/11 convenience store owned by Sulieman the Sufi in Seattle.


The Greek Orthodox patriarch mentioned the Venetians as recently as a couple of years ago. Long memories. That's IMO a bigger issue than _filioque _these days.


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## Mujib (Jan 8, 2006)

“What good religion allows that?”

“So your religion is very troubleing to me.”

You wonder why I do not answer your questions and comments. 

You post an attempt to vilify Islam and Muslims and title your thread “Muslims in Europe & America,” then to defend the obvious Islamophobia you put forth the usual “but these are extremists, not all Muslims,” and now “your religion in very troubleing to me.”

When you take extremists and/or anti-Islamic polemicists and Islamophobes for your teachers, much will be troubling to you, sir.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

WA said:


> Mujib you came back, but you never answered any of my questions in another thread or two.
> 
> There are a number of Muslims that have come West to get away from those that spoke in that video. And they were even mentioned in that video as not worthy to be Muslims.
> 
> ...


The (t)rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Mujib said:


> "What good religion allows that?"
> 
> "So your religion is very troubleing to me."
> 
> ...


Well put Mujib. A search through WA's posts should be enlightening to you.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Here's the thing that gives fire to islamophobia: lack of self-policing.

I have a close friend, a physician, who was born in an Islamic country and is still a Muslim today. We were chatting about this and he was bemoaning Islamophobia. I asked him what he had done in the last year to have the extreme, islamofacists stopped, silenced, and stripped of all clerical power. He stated he had done none of that. I asked him what his mosque had done in this regards. It had held an open house once to show not all Muslims were terrorists. I told him any intelligent person knows this but the open house was not what I had asked about.

Then I asked him if he was aware of any Muslims and/or mosques that were reported to be funding terrorism. He said, as everyone knows, there have been valid legal actions in the last year over this.

So while he could name nothing actionable done to stop extreme Islam, he could rightly point out cases in the West where Muslims were funding terrorism. The point is, until Muslims themselves take real, substantial, and meaningful actions, every snake-oil salesman jihadist just makes life tougher for peace loving Muslim.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Yachti, Catholicism and Orthodoxy have some issues. But I see them more as old family history that only comes up during weddings so the groom understands Aunt Harriet is still upset over Uncle Jack's bringing home a warbride from Germany. We are still family, and have a common treasure in the early church much of the christian collective left behind as if Martin Luther posting complaints on a door was as great an event as Jesus instructing the disciples on his church. In anycase, I don't see greeks or italians behaving rudely to reciprocal tourists in Venice or Athens lately. We can consider that some progress, better than blowing up your nieghbor over the successor to Mohamet.


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Here's the thing that gives fire to islamophobia: lack of self-policing.


This is certianly true to some degree...

But one root cause of this problem is that the fringe has so successfully exploited mainstream issues to gain broad support. To the West it's about the Caliphate but to the moderate Muslim it's also about Islamic suffering around the world, much of which has at least some legitimate basis.

To further complicate matters there's a huge underground anti-Islamic movement in the US to demonize Islam in an effort to "wake Americans up".

Personally I believe that politically militant Muslims using terror are a big problem we need to combat, but how it's being dealt with today is just adding fuel to the fire and not making much if any meaningful progress.

-spence


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Kav said:


> Yachti, Catholicism and Orthodoxy have some issues. But I see them more as old family history that only comes up during weddings so the groom understands Aunt Harriet is still upset over Uncle Jack's bringing home a warbride from Germany. We are still family, and have a common treasure in the early church much of the christian collective left behind as if Martin Luther posting complaints on a door was as great an event as Jesus instructing the disciples on his church. In anycase, I don't see greeks or italians behaving rudely to reciprocal tourists in Venice or Athens lately. We can consider that some progress, better than blowing up your nieghbor over the successor to Mohamet.


couldn't agree more kav. as a greek orthodox friend of mine said to me recently, we were one church once, lets try to be one again.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Kav said:


> Yachti, Catholicism and Orthodoxy have some issues. But I see them more as old family history that only comes up during weddings so the groom understands Aunt Harriet is still upset over Uncle Jack's bringing home a warbride from Germany. *We are still family, and have a common treasure in the early church much of the christian collective left behind as if Martin Luther posting complaints on a door was as great an event as Jesus instructing the disciples on his church.* In anycase, I don't see greeks or italians behaving rudely to reciprocal tourists in Venice or Athens lately. We can consider that some progress, better than blowing up your nieghbor over the successor to Mohamet.


When Martin Luther posted his 95 theses on the door of the church in Wittenberg, he meant to challenge the church's views on indulgences, penance and the authority of the pope. Luther did not intend to leave the Catholic church, nor was he trying to destroy the church, but he did feel that changes needed to be made. He was then excommunicated for his views.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Yes, and it could be argued he ignored, by political reality or other reasons the alternative of the eastern tradition who held many similar views in common with his 95 thesis. Reform is quite different from changing the very simple directions for apostolic succession and liturgical worship to playing with rattlesnakes and selling glow in the dark last supper snowglobes for love gifts. How many Orthodox priests does it take to change a lightbulb? Answer, CHANGE?


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Here's the thing that gives fire to islamophobia: lack of self-policing.
> 
> I have a close friend, a physician, who was born in an Islamic country and is still a Muslim today. We were chatting about this and he was bemoaning Islamophobia. I asked him what he had done in the last year to have the extreme, islamofacists stopped, silenced, and stripped of all clerical power. He stated he had done none of that. I asked him what his mosque had done in this regards. It had held an open house once to show not all Muslims were terrorists. I told him any intelligent person knows this but the open house was not what I had asked about.
> 
> ...


more than that - a large number of muslims are sympathetic, to some extent or another, with some groups that support terror. I spend a lot of my time dealing with muslims, in the states and in various other countries. it is amazing how many people support hamas and the hizballah, and how many feel that Al-Quida had justifications for 911. it is a slippery slope. also, most religious muslims give money, at least 2.5% of their annual income, to "charities". most of these "charities" are muslim, and send the money to the middle east. many of these are not exactly careful with the money to make sure it doesn't fall into the hands of terrorists.

I would be extremly pleased to see muslims in america and europe coming out and making a clear stand against violence and terror, but i don't see it happening.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

WA said:


> I have know idea how old you are. But I have heard it from more than one person about Bibles being banded from the Homes of Catholics (that is what I meant to ask you about). Even picking up the neigbors mail, because it ended up in the wrong mail box and two Catholic publications said that Catholics are not to read the Bible except under thier strick supervision, so even though they can have the Bible in the house these days they are not suppose to read it alone. Maybe I'm wrong that Catholics couldn't have a Bible in the house pre JFK- I only asked.


Oh, it's worse than that! Catholics also practice human sacrifice and cannibalism, in case you haven't heard.

Your neighbors mail didn't, by chance, consist of Jack Chick tracts, did it?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I stand by my original comment made on or about September 12th, 2001. As soon as they knew it was Osama bin Laden.

We still lived in a 3rd floor apartment and my Wife had taken the dog outside. About 20 minutes later I realized she had been gone unusually long so I went out to find her. She was in the stairwell of the building talking to a couple in full robes and head-dress. When I asked why are you talking to them? She said, "They were just explaining to me that they are shiite, and different than the people that flew the planes into the WTC." 

My reaction was, "Give it a few months and it won't matter."

IMHO, Muslim and American values are totally inconsistent. We can have temporary allies, trading partners, etc. with Muslim countries. However, in the end they will always have to choose between their religion and their politics and they will always choose their religion. 

This is not to single them out, or even to criticize them. It's just reality. I'm the same way. However, my religion and my politics are consistent. Like it or not; this is a Christian country. Freedom of religion was designed as freedom to practice religion not as an atheist country. For that see: Soviet Union. As the USA becomes less so, I choose my religion too. My recognition of authority is ranked: God's Law, Natural Law, State Law, and Federal Law. I am self-described Conservative-Libertarian; I re-registered Republican from Independent to vote against W in the primary.

Let the flames begin ...


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## OldSkoolFrat (Jan 5, 2007)

Laxplayer said:


> First of all, you read your neighbor's mail?


I tried too, but all I got was junk mail and bills.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

globetrotter said:


> I would be extremly pleased to see muslims in america and europe coming out and making a clear stand against violence and terror, but i don't see it happening.


Based on my experience in France, Muslims cannot readily be persuaded to stand against their own, certainly not publicly, and certainly not in front of non-Muslims. They fear that making a public stand against the extremists may be construed as some sort of betrayal of Islam. Religious feeling runs very deep in Muslim communities, and pressure to conform is strong. However, the majority of Muslims do not support the extremists.

At the same time, Jews don't like to criticise Israel publicly, especially not in front of non-Jews; this would be betrayal. But in private, Jews are often critical.

When you get to know individual Jews and Muslims very well, the picture is much less clearcut. Most of them are just ordinary, calm, moderate people, so long as certain subjects of conversation are avoided.

This is just my own experience, and I'm generalising a bit, but I think it's relevant.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I can see it now, a nieghborhood pot luck in the backyard. 747 flies into the nearby shopping complex. To keep the couple from upyoursistan ordinary, calm and moderate everybody just looks in the opposite direction and comments on the leaves changing colour.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Rich said:


> Based on my experience in France, Muslims cannot readily be persuaded to stand against their own, certainly not publicly, and certainly not in front of non-Muslims. They fear that making a public stand against the extremists may be construed as some sort of betrayal of Islam. Religious feeling runs very deep in Muslim communities, and pressure to conform is strong. However, the majority of Muslims do not support the extremists.
> 
> At the same time, Jews don't like to criticise Israel publicly, especially not in front of non-Jews; this would be betrayal. But in private, Jews are often critical.
> 
> ...


Rich,

first, I have been in demostrations against the occupation of lebanon where 1/10th of the populaiton of the country was present - Imagine 5 million people taking to the streets of paris to protest Algeria, for instance. there are pleanty of jews who come out and critisize israel, and the israeli position. coincidentily, I am going to a meeting this weekend of a group that is traveling around the US giving lectures on this. it is hugely common. so, I would say that that is not a great example.

2nd - I would argue that, with all said and done, there are strong arguemtns on both sides of the israel question - I am very critical about many aspects of israeli policy, but I will get really pissed off and fight when somebody starts throwing around stupid critisisms of israel. I think that there is a huge difference between saying "Israel should get out of most of the west bank, but israel isn't an apartheid state" to "well, of course terrorists shouldn't target children in france, but targeting israeli children is perfectly acceptable".

3rd - there is an overwelming burdon on the muslim community to do so. I know as many muslims as pretty much anybody here, I would venture. I have spent a lot of time with muslims and arabs, and I have a great deal of respect for much of muslim culture and religion. but, it is obvious to me that a great deal of muslims, not a minority (if you are counting arabs and muslims in the west, not counting the south asian and indonesian muslims), have offered support, either physical, or economic, or emotional, to people in the terror business. their communiies have a burden to distance themselves clearly and loudly. and a reluctance to do so should result in consquesnces.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

globetrotter said:


> Rich,
> 
> first, I have been in demostrations against the occupation of lebanon where 1/10th of the populaiton of the country was present - Imagine 5 million people taking to the streets of paris to protest Algeria, for instance. there are pleanty of jews who come out and critisize israel, and the israeli position. coincidentily, I am going to a meeting this weekend of a group that is traveling around the US giving lectures on this. it is hugely common. so, I would say that that is not a great example.
> 
> ...


Are you serious? That is like saying that most Irish-Americans support the IRA.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> Are you serious? That is like saying that most Irish-Americans support the IRA.


that would be my argument, yes.

I talk to a lot of arabs. quiet a few. most of whom are in the very top of the curve in terms of education and "exposure" to the west. who don't realize that I have a relationship to Israel, or that I am even jewish. and you would not believe what people tell me. because they feel very comfortable that supporting what we would consider terror - that is, what I would consider terror, organizaitons in the business of suppoting armed actions against israeli and jewish civillians- is perfectly acceptable.

the fact is that no major arab politician comes out and says "using terror is wrong" - and they justifiy this by saying "well, if I did this, my people would revolt and kill me". it stands to reason that this shows that a large chunk of the population is in favor of the terror.

Lax - look at the difference. how many irish do you know in the states? now, how many do you know who dont watch tv, don't speak english, stay in a neighborhood that is 100% irish, send their children to a school where everyone is irish, etc? now, how many muslims in the west live like that? how many jews do you know? how many muslims? there are about the same number in the country - so where are the muslims? they are living in high density muslim neighborhoods - which is exectly the best place for them to hold on to ideas and concepts that are forign.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

globetrotter said:


> that would be my argument, yes.
> 
> I talk to a lot of arabs. quiet a few. most of whom are in the very top of the curve in terms of education and "exposure" to the west. who don't realize that I have a relationship to Israel, or that I am even jewish. and you would not believe what people tell me. because they feel very comfortable that supporting what we would consider terror - that is, what I would consider terror, organizaitons in the business of suppoting armed actions against israeli and jewish civillians- is perfectly acceptable.
> 
> ...


I don't know of any muslim neighborhoods in St. Louis, outside of the large Bosnian population in South City. Most of the Bosnians I know aren't even practicing muslims. I can however, tell you where the jewish neighborhoods in the city are. The jews living in these areas _do_ go to jewish schools and _do_ live in a neighborhood that is mostly jewish. Some belong to a country club that only allows jewish members (Westwood CC). Whether or not they speak only Hebrew or refuse to watch TV, I do not know. Do I think that because they live in a high density jewish neighborhood that they support extreme Zionist ideas? No, absolutely not. I have no problem with people who want to live in ethnic neighborhoods. BTW, my dad grew up in a primarily Irish neighborhood, I did not.

I am not saying that there are not those (maybe more than I realize) who do support terrorist activities, but I don't think it is fair to say that the majority of muslims in the U.S. support them.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> I am not saying that there are not those (maybe more than I realize) who do support terrorist activities, but I don't think it is fair to say that the majority of muslims in the U.S. support them.


That's not what he said - what he said was:



> but, it is obvious to me that a great deal of muslims, not a minority (if you are counting arabs and muslims in the west, not counting the south asian and indonesian muslims), have offered support, either physical, or economic, or emotional, to people in the terror business.


The U.S. was not specifically mentioned - he said "the west".


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Rocker said:


> That's not what he said - what he said was:
> 
> The U.S. was not specifically mentioned - he said "the west".


Fine. I do not think that is fair to say that the majority of muslims in "the west" support terrorist activities simply because globetrotter knows and has talked to quite a few of them.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

actually, this wasn't written that clearly, I meant arabs - muslims in the arab states, and muslims in the west not counting south asians and indonesians. 

I may very well be wrong by a percent point one way or another. I would be suprised, though. very surpised. 


I would say that overwhelmingly the arab press is pro-terror, although I admit that I am embracing the widest inerpretation of terror, which I think is accurate. and, judging by the various popular demonstrations in favor of terror around the arab world, I would say that it indicates huge support from the "Street". on top of that, I would say that I ahve never heard any arab say "I am totally against all use of violence against civilians". I hear a great deal of people saying why it is justified to use terror against certain groups. 

that would be my expereince.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Laxplayer,

I am inclined to agree with Globetrotter. The overwhelming majority of Muslims believe that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (an anti-Semitic forgery from Czarist Russia) is the gospel (pun intended!) truth. Also I would be surprised if a majority of Muslims didn't believe that 9-11 was some sort of Mossad-CIA conspiracy. American Muslims probably have more reasonable views but there is still a shockingly high percentage that choose to believe in myth and delusional paranoia.

They danced in the street in the Palestinian Territories during 9-11 and usually have a gay old time when any Israelis are killed and it would be naive to think that a large percentage of international Muslim community don't take a similar delight in such things.

Karl


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Laxplayer sounds like an inveterate leftist...!


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Agree or disagree, laxplayer gives some thought to his posts beyond puffs of cigar smoke and Pink Floyd renditions of " Are there any queers in the theater tonight? get them up against the wall."


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

Laxplayer is no lefty! His only sin is that his Cards defeated the Mets last year in the NLCS.

Karl


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

I'm not a lefty by the current definition. Blue Dog, DINO or Crunchy Con is how my friends would describe me. 
I certainly do not have anything in common with Hollywood liberal types or Ted Rall. I abhor Ted Rall. I also dislike Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly. A friend in college had a T-shirt that summed up my political views pretty well: _I Think, Therefore I Am Moderate_.

As far as this discussion goes, I don't want to judge a group of people as a whole because of what some extremists do. Like I said above, most of the muslims in St. Louis are Bosnian, and they don't seem to care much about what the arab nations are doing. I have met and talked to quite a few arabs (mainly Lebanese and Iranian) and they seemed like nice, reasonable people just trying to make a living here in the U.S. I went to lunch with a former client of mine who is Somalian, and was working as a plumber. He is now deceased (killed in a car accident). He told me that he was not interested in what goes on in Somalia anymore because he was an American. That is how I try to look at things, individuals not groups.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Last time listening to Luis Faracon his religious beliefs seem in conflict with America's Democratize. Hope other Muslims think different.

It seems some Muslims come West to get away from the problems over in the Middle East. And some like America's Democratize. But, then, the terrorist come over here and terrorize decent Muslims. And for the rest of us who is who? I certainly don't want to send decent Muslims back, which can be dangerous to them.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Globetrotter,

I should have said I was talking about North African Arab and Turkish Muslims in France and Pakistani Muslims in the UK, not Middle-Eastern Arab Muslims. So maybe we're not talking about the same Muslims. The Jews I was talking about were conservative or orthodox Ashkenaz Jews in North and East London. 

Even so, I think the colossal resentment felt (rightly or wrongly) by most Muslim Arabs towards the West is not unfounded. Since the crusades and throughout the colonial period to this day there has been endemic anti-Arab and anti-Muslim prejudice throughout Europe, to varying degrees. Even leaving the US and Israel out of the equation there is plenty of fuel for resentment, and that resentment, whether it is fully justified or not, anachronistic or not, helpful or not, is there. There are things even moderate Muslims will not do, and it seems that massive official unilateral public condemnation of violence is one of them.

The practicing conservative Jews I knew in London would not take any criticism of Israel coming from a non-Jew - in public they all supported Israel unreservedly. Which I can understand.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's not going to be simple. I don't see a Muslim Gandhi emerging.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich,

If we look far back enough in history it would seem that every group has some basis for resentment. But the facts are that today Arab Muslims can enjoy more freedom and economic mobility in Europe than they can in their home countries.

The Arabs have a massive inferiority complex, which in many cases is justified. The lies and propaganda which their governments feed them only add to their confusion - how can the infidel West be superior to us in every way they ask.

Instead of focusing on reforming their governments, of harnessing the great potential for intellectual and cultural talent and building economies which are more than resource based (though the same could be said of post-Soviet Russia as well) most of the Arab world has chosen to blame everyone but themselves. Israel IS their greatest enemy, not bc Israel poses a threat to their national security, but rather Israel allows the Arab world to focus on some phantom menace instead of facing the cold hard truth in the mirror.

If one excludes oil and gas, which admittedly is the luck of geography and cannot be harnessed or exploited without Western technology, the entire Arab world exports less than Finland!

Said might have ranted about the evils of Orientalism but the self inflicted wounds of Occidentalism have crippled the Arab world almost beyond repair.

Karl


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Rich,
> 
> *If we look far back enough in history it would seem that every group has some basis for resentment. But the facts are that today Arab Muslims can enjoy more freedom and economic mobility in Europe than they can in their home countries.*
> 
> ...


Now this is something that I agree with. When I see the crowds of people yelling and burning US and Israeli flags on tv, I wonder what lies these people must be told about western nations to have so much hatred towards us. For the Arab muslims, living in Europe or the US, there is no excuse for continued hatred. They are free to work, worship and live their lives as they please, and they enjoy far more freedoms than their own countries allowed.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> I'm not a lefty by the current definition. Blue Dog, DINO or Crunchy Con is how my friends would describe me.
> I certainly do not have anything in common with Hollywood liberal types or Ted Rall. I abhor Ted Rall. I also dislike Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly. A friend in college had a T-shirt that summed up my political views pretty well: _I Think, Therefore I Am Moderate_.
> 
> As far as this discussion goes, I don't want to judge a group of people as a whole because of what some extremists do. Like I said above, most of the muslims in St. Louis are Bosnian, and they don't seem to care much about what the arab nations are doing. I have met and talked to quite a few arabs (mainly Lebanese and Iranian) and they seemed like nice, reasonable people just trying to make a living here in the U.S. I went to lunch with a former client of mine who is Somalian, and was working as a plumber. He is now deceased (killed in a car accident). He told me that he was not interested in what goes on in Somalia anymore because he was an American. That is how I try to look at things, individuals not groups.


LAX,

let me clarify my position

1. I think that what is the main mistake of americans, and a lot of westerners, is where the line is drawn between what is an extremist and what is mainstream, in muslim/arab society. because we feel that terror is extreme, we then feel that terrorists are extremists. I do not mean this as either to be offensive or a challenge - but try to find examples of where mainstream muslim leaders, in the US, the west or in muslim population centers, have come out an expressly condemed all acts of terror. you will find few.

2. in the past two years, I have probrably had a meal with 50 or more guys who support terror in one way or another - although mostly simply by emotional approval of it, some financially. aside from one or two, all were charming, nice, reasonable people who were trying to support their families.

3. drive around an arab neighborhood one day. see all the stores that specialize in sending money internationally? they wouldn't be there if people didn't keep relations with their roots. around the world, in the US, in western Europe, in latin america, in west africa, you have arab populations that send money back to arab countries. in many cases, families have houses in the west and in the middle east, and float back and forth. look at how many american citizens were in lebanon last summer to be evacuated in the war. every muslim that I have ever known in the west has kept excelent relations with his family back home, certainly for the first generation.

4. you are right - the best way to look at things is to look at individuals, not groups. but I make my living understanding how different cultures do things, and one thing that I have found is that americans really don't understand very well that there are other cultures out there.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Rich said:


> Globetrotter,
> 
> I should have said I was talking about North African Arab and Turkish Muslims in France and Pakistani Muslims in the UK, not Middle-Eastern Arab Muslims. So maybe we're not talking about the same Muslims. The Jews I was talking about were conservative or orthodox Ashkenaz Jews in North and East London.
> 
> ...


1. historically speaking, there is no more reason for muslims to hate the west than for the west to hate muslims. sorry, that is just history. if the muslims had been a little better at war, they would have colonized western europe, but the fact is that europe and the middle east clashed again and again for more than 1000 years, and the mulsims were no more innocent or guilty than the west in this. until the west african slave trade started, a great deal more europeans were enslaved and sold in muslim lands than any other group of slaves - I've gotten past that, I hold no grudge. they should learn from this attitude.

2. believe me, or do the research yourself, for every bit of anti-muslim propoganda in the west, there is at least one piece of anti-christian or jew propoganda in the east. such is life. the fact is that christians and jews were terribly restricted in the east, by our standards. it was a lot better than what the germans did to the jews 70 years ago, but it was a lot worse than pretty much anything that christians did to muslims over the years.

3. yes, there is a huge amount of resentment and hatred. and a lot of it is justified. that doens't mean it is ok to voice this with violence. the fact that a person might feel a great deal of resentment over his employment situaiton in france doens't justify his contributing money to a terror organization. sorry, no equation


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Anyone interested in a discussion of a new book addressing some of the issues under discussion here may want to visit this site: https://www.slate.com/id/2158114/entry/2158134/

A representative quotation:

Among scholars of terrorism these days, the accepted wisdom is that a major reason no second catastrophic attack on the United States has occurred is that the foot soldiers of jihad are not here-at least not in great numbers. Many Muslims in this country may be angry about U.S. foreign policy, but they are not alienated from American society or values. They are also more educated than the national norm, earn more than the norm, and are not ghettoized, as the Muslims of Europe are. ("American Muslims have bought into the American dream," my friend Marc Sageman, the author of Understanding Terror Networks, likes to say. "What is the European dream?")


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

globetrotter said:


> 1. historically speaking, there is no more reason for muslims to hate the west than for the west to hate muslims. sorry, that is just history. if the muslims had been a little better at war, they would have colonized western europe, but the fact is that europe and the middle east clashed again and again for more than 1000 years, and the mulsims were no more innocent or guilty than the west in this. until the west african slave trade started, a great deal more europeans were enslaved and sold in muslim lands than any other group of slaves - I've gotten past that, I hold no grudge. they should learn from this attitude.
> 
> 2. believe me, or do the research yourself, for every bit of anti-muslim propoganda in the west, there is at least one piece of anti-christian or jew propoganda in the east. such is life. the fact is that christians and jews were terribly restricted in the east, by our standards. it was a lot better than what the germans did to the jews 70 years ago, but it was a lot worse than pretty much anything that christians did to muslims over the years.
> 
> 3. yes, there is a huge amount of resentment and hatred. and a lot of it is justified. that doens't mean it is ok to voice this with violence. the fact that a person might feel a great deal of resentment over his employment situaiton in france doens't justify his contributing money to a terror organization. sorry, no equation


I don't dispute any of this. The point I want to make is that we are in a situation right now where several succesive generations of Muslims, especially Arab Muslims, have been brought up at best to mistrust and at worst to hate Christians and Jews and the West in general. On the other side, Europeans have been brought up to have at least a condescending attitude towards, and at worst contempt for Arabs, Islam and the East in general. These hardened attitudes underly the conflict in the Middle East.

There are three solutions:

1. Live apart. Have nothing to do with each other. Impossible today with globalisation. (Leave your wife and move away)
2. Destroy the other side. Some want that (on both sides), but it is obviously unacceptable. (Murder your wife - difficult to get away with when everyone's looking, unless you can provoke her into a fight and then use self-defence as an excuse)
3. Win hearts and minds on both sides. Give and take. Move on, etc. This is the only feasible solution, but it is also extremely long and difficult. (Both go to a marriage councillor, both get psychoanalysed, etc.)


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

Rich said:


> I don't dispute any of this. The point I want to make is that we are in a situation right now where several succesive generations of Muslims, especially Arab Muslims, have been brought up at best to mistrust and at worst to hate Christians and Jews and the West in general. On the other side, Europeans have been brought up to have at least a condescending attitude towards, and at worst contempt for Arabs, Islam and the East in general. These hardened attitudes underly the conflict in the Middle East.
> 
> There are three solutions:
> 
> ...


interesting analogy. I honesty don't think that it is that good a fit to the situation. I would say that it is more like if you went off to the 3rd world and brought back a second wife, who married you so that she could live in the west, but treated you with contempt. and you coulght her beating your kids. so, you can agree that she gets to beat your kids only part of the time, or you can put down an ultimatum, or you can divorce her.

look, I think that the west has a huge amount to be gained from having muslims, and frankly people from all over the world, integrate peacefully. what is happening, however, is that we are not having this peaceful integration. look at what is happening in the "Suburbs" of paris with immigrants. they are changing the whole culture of france, because they don't want to integrate into french culture. on top of that, there have been terror attacks, and unsuccessful terror attacks across europe by immigrants who are enjoying the material advantages of immigration, but are not integrating and are willing and eager to use violence against their hosts.

I am not saying "kick them out" - I am saying "it does no one any good to ignore facts".


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