# Who Is Closer To Being a "Moderate"?



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Title says it all. Who do you think is closer to the middle of the road? Obama or McCain. Feel free to post your rationale.


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

I suppose it all boils down to one's definition of "moderate". The opposite of moderate isn't ideological or partisan.

If I was forced to choose, I would have to say the more moderate choice between the two is the one who didn't advocate the bombing of Iran.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Neither, look at voting records


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulledpork said:


> I suppose it all boils down to one's definition of "moderate". The opposite of moderate isn't ideological or partisan.
> 
> If I was forced to choose, I would have to say the more moderate choice between the two is the one who didn't advocate the bombing of Iran.


The concept here is to vote, then give rationale. Not rationale _sans_ vote.


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> The concept here is to vote, then give rationale. Not rationale _sans_ vote.


Noted, and voted.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Obama is closer to the middle of the road as he still drives. McCain lets Cindy do the driving (can't see well at night anymore) and is usually snoozing in the passenger seat which in America makes him further from the middle of any road. 

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I walked outside and looked at my street. In the middle is a long yellow streak and a dead, very two dimensional skunk. NADER 2008


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

Obama talks a good game but votes and prescribes policies that are consistently paleoliberal.

McCain has some conservative elements (strong military, smaller government, lower taxes) and some populist/leftist elements as well (objecting to high CEO compensation, "corporate welfare"). That makes him more of a centrist/moderate in my book. Should he win there is one place I hope he shows no moderation: vetoing spending/taxing bills and using the bully pulpit to shame members of Congress who are looting the public treasury.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

radix023 said:


> Obama talks a good game but votes and prescribes policies that are consistently paleoliberal.
> 
> McCain has some conservative elements (strong military, smaller government, lower taxes) and some populist/leftist elements as well (objecting to high CEO compensation, "corporate welfare"). That makes him more of a centrist/moderate in my book. Should he win there is one place I hope he shows no moderation: vetoing spending/taxing bills and using the bully pulpit to shame members of Congress who are looting the public treasury.


Agreed. Also, McCain has voted against GOP tax cut initiatives and is drinking the Global Warming -- oops, sorry, meant Climate change -- Kool-Aid. I think this makes him a moderate conservative overall. There is a reason why hard core conservatives have never been fans. On the other hand I am not aware of a single issue where Obama doesn't toe a doctrinairre liberal line. But perhaps I'm ill-informed. If so, I would welcome contrary information.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Since Obama's voting record makes Teddy Kennedy look moderate, I guess McCain would certainly get the nod by default.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

McCain


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Using the word moderate itself is a loaded term. I think most people would consider their own views "moderate"... so by asking who you consider "moderate" is almost like asking who's views are closer to yours, and who you identify with more. 

I voted neither


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> Using the word moderate itself is a loaded term. I think most people would consider their own views "moderate"... so by asking who you consider "moderate" is almost like asking who's views are closer to yours, and who you identify with more.


You are correct. Using a term such as "moderate" means that I am pre-supposing people have enough insight into themselves to objectively identify a political spectrum. I am forever making the mistake that people might both possess insight and be rational. One of my fatal flaws.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I was stationed in Alameda California and enjoying the rich culture mix of SF. This shipmate, a neat Southern Baptist gal from Alabama wanted to check out this church getting a lot of media attention and shoulder rubbing with California politicians. And being a student of buddhism at the time and somewhat infamous for dragging an AWOL recruit from the Church of Satan I figured why not, Jackie being the most gorgeous black lady I ever met and no mean cook either. So I donned my Cable Car Clothiers suit and we went. I don't think we were there 10 miutes into the sermon but we both looked at each other in near terror. Jackie knew evil when she smelled it, and so did I. So we left, pushing aside the smiling and body blocking ushers for the fresh air of the morning fog giving way to the Sun warming asphalt, winos and a Gay Pride parade. So I saw that twisted piece of crap Jim Jones long before the soft drink ( it was in fact NOT Koolaid) was forced down people. And when other people cavalierly try to force mere opnion down mine using that metaphor I get real insulted like, as if your next move is to stitch a yellow star or pink diamond on my jacket.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

omairp said:


> Using the word moderate itself is a loaded term. I think most people would consider their own views "moderate"... so by asking who you consider "moderate" is almost like asking who's views are closer to yours, and who you identify with more.
> 
> I voted neither


I see the point, but don't really buy it. First, "most people" probably ARE moderate so they'd be right to consider their views such. And in my experience most folks I who lean liberal readlily acknowledge that, just as most people I know who lean conservative readily acknowledge that. While terms such as liberal and conservative are imprecise to be sure, they are useful enough. The fact is that both liberal and conservative organizations that score politicians on these types of things consistently register McCain as solidly conservative but not consistently so, whereas Obama registers as consistently liberal. If both lefty and righty organizations can agree on this, it probably has some merit. Besides, a couple posters have mentioned a number of liberal positions endorsed by McCain. I'm still waiting to hear of a conservative postion taken by Obama.


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> Should [McCain] win there is one place I hope he shows no moderation: vetoing spending/taxing bills and using the bully pulpit to shame members of Congress who are looting the public treasury.


To quote Homer Simpson, if you think this will happen, you're living in a world of make-believe ... with flowers and bells and leprechauns and magic frogs with funny little hats.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Kav said:


> I was stationed in Alameda California and enjoying the rich culture mix of SF. This shipmate, a neat Southern Baptist gal from Alabama wanted to check out this church getting a lot of media attention and shoulder rubbing with California politicians. And being a student of buddhism at the time and somewhat infamous for dragging an AWOL recruit from the Church of Satan I figured why not, Jackie being the most gorgeous black lady I ever met and no mean cook either. So I donned my Cable Car Clothiers suit and we went. I don't think we were there 10 miutes into the sermon but we both looked at each other in near terror. Jackie knew evil when she smelled it, and so did I. So we left, pushing aside the smiling and body blocking ushers for the fresh air of the morning fog giving way to the Sun warming asphalt, winos and a Gay Pride parade. So I saw that twisted piece of crap Jim Jones long before the soft drink ( it was in fact NOT Koolaid) was forced down people. And when other people cavalierly try to force mere opnion down mine using that metaphor I get real insulted like, as if your next move is to stitch a yellow star or pink diamond on my jacket.


Kav, the terrific entertainment value of your ramblings notwithstanding, the Kool-Aid reference is just a figure of speech. I would think that a person of your colorful and wordly experience would appreciate the fact that whether the disturbed "Rev." Jones served Kool-Aid, Flavor-aid or some such other soft drink is not especially irrelevant. And I certainly was not trying to force my opinion on you or anyone else, but the fact that you seem to think so suggests that you need something a bit stiffer than a soft drink. Come to Atlanta and I'll buy.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Kav said:


> ... So I saw that twisted piece of crap Jim Jones long before the soft drink ( it was in fact NOT Koolaid) was forced down people. And when other people cavalierly try to force mere opnion down mine using that metaphor I get real insulted like, as if your next move is to stitch a yellow star or pink diamond on my jacket.


It's really sad that not only is it a particularly bad metaphor but it isn't even historically accurate. I guess, though, that "Flavor-Aid" doesn't quite have the ring or cultural associations "Kool-Aid" does. In any case comparing a wonky difference of opinion with enforced mass suicide and murder is something a decent high school English teacher would have corrected. It's too bad that those who shout didn't first learn to listen.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> Kav...Come to Atlanta and I'll buy.


Tell him to meet you first at The Varsity. Everyone needs to know about that.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> I see the point, but don't really buy it. First, "most people" probably ARE moderate so they'd be right to consider their views such. And in my experience most folks I who lean liberal readlily acknowledge that, just as most people I know who lean conservative readily acknowledge that. While terms such as liberal and conservative are imprecise to be sure, they are useful enough. The fact is that both liberal and conservative organizations that score politicians on these types of things consistently register McCain as solidly conservative but not consistently so, whereas Obama registers as consistently liberal. If both lefty and righty organizations can agree on this, it probably has some merit. Besides, a couple posters have mentioned a number of liberal positions endorsed by McCain. I'm still waiting to hear of a conservative postion taken by Obama.


No offence intended, but the mistake that you are making to to assume that the rest of the world (outside of the USA) sees the political spectrum in the same way that you do. Take the media in England for example: The editorial position of the Guardian newspaper represents the point of view of roughly the center ground of British politics. I know several Americans who describe themselves as "liberal" who think it is way out in left field. Another newspaper The Telegraph horrified an American "conservative" friend of mine as in an editorial he read it was supportive of a hereditary aristocracy.

When looking at Mr. Obama through the lens of British politics, he looks like a roughly middle of the road social democrat. That may be something you care about, and it may not.

Just my opinion.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulledpork said:


> When looking at *Mr. Obama through the lens of British politics, he looks like a roughly middle of the road social democrat. *That may be something you care about, and it may not.
> 
> Just my opinion.


And you think casting Obama as a social democrat is going to help?


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> And you think casting Obama as a social democrat is going to help?


I consider myself more or less in the social democrat camp (mostly in the center when it comes to most things), and he seems to fit that profile to me. I also realise that is quite left wing as far as many Americans are concerned.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulledpork said:


> I consider myself more or less in the social democrat camp...


I sort of figured that out when you said the Guardian was a centrist paper. :thumbs-up: Even the staff there will tell you it is left leaning. MORI polls show the UK population believe it to be left wing.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/content/voting-intention-by-newspaper-readership-quarter-1.ashx


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> I sort of figured that out when you said the Guardian was a centrist paper. :thumbs-up: Even the staff there will tell you it is left leaning. MORI polls show the UK population believe it to be left wing.
> 
> https://www.ipsos-mori.com/content/voting-intention-by-newspaper-readership-quarter-1.ashx


That isn't what the poll shows though, it talks about voting intention based on newspaper readership in 2005. The Labour Party ceased being a left wing party with the election of the Blair cabinet.

I will freely admit though that the Grauniad has moved a little further to the left in the last 10 years or so. Even I cringe at George Monbiot's articles.


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> I sort of figured that out when you said the Guardian was a centrist paper. :thumbs-up: Even the staff there will tell you it is left leaning.


Do you think then that if something contains any shred of a left wing idea, it cant be in the center?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulledpork said:


> Do you think then that if something contains any shred of a left wing idea, it cant be in the center?


Of course not. McCain utters some left wing things now and then. Dubya was pure left wing with Medicare D.


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> Of course not. McCain utters some left wing things now and then. Dubya was pure left wing with Medicare D.


I see. What were you saying earlier about people having enough insight into themselves to objectively identify a political spectrum? :icon_smile_big:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulledpork said:


> I see. What were you saying earlier about people having enough insight into themselves to objectively identify a political spectrum? :icon_smile_big:


If you do not think a huge new entitlement program is usually considered to the left of center, you really do lack the insight mentioned.


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> If you do not think a huge new entitlement program is usually considered to the left of center, you really do lack the insight mentioned.


I never said entitlement programs aren't, but I don't consider most of them so far to the left that it precludes the overall package from being in the center.

Baroness Thatcher kept the National Health system alive (barely) during her terms as PM, do you think she was on the left? Pretty big entitlement program, no?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulledpork said:


> I never said entitlement programs aren't, but I don't consider most of them so far to the left that it precludes the overall package from being in the center.
> 
> Baroness Thatcher kept the National Health system alive (barely) during her terms as PM, do you think she was on the left? Pretty big entitlement program, no?


I think you need to go back and re-read. I gave two examples where the people did something or said something left wing, but I do not deem them left wing. Basically, you were trying a composition vs. whole fallacy test and I passed it (or course :teacha: )


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> I think you need to go back and re-read. I gave two examples where the people did something or said something left wing, but I do not deem them left wing. Basically, you were trying a composition vs. whole fallacy test and I passed it (or course :teacha: )


Basically, you didn't. You said:

_McCain utters some left wing things now and then. Dubya was pure left wing with Medicare D_

Hardly sterling examples. You might as well have said that Dubya is a Bolshevek because he supports state education funded by public taxes.

I think we must agree that perceptions of what is or isn't left wing are very subjective. :icon_smile:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulledpork said:


> Basically, you didn't. You said:
> 
> _McCain utters some left wing things now and then. Dubya was pure left wing with Medicare D_
> 
> ...


*sigh* And *yawn*

Just go re-read the damn thread. You asked:



Pulling My Leg; said:


> Do you think then that if something contains any shred of a left wing idea, it cant be in the center?


I answered:



Wayfarer said:


> Of course not.


You left that little bit out. So to re-cap and hopefully bury this:

You asked: Do you think A?
I answered: Of course not. Examples to the contrary here.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Hitler!!!


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Hmm, let's try a little major media news editing on this.



Wayfarer said:


> *sigh* And *yawn*
> 
> Just damn the left and hopefully bury the contrary here.


Now we see Wayfarer is not only cursingly outraged but also secretly trying to undermine conservatism in the process.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Pulledpork (Jun 3, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> You asked: Do you think A?
> I answered: Of course not. Examples to the contrary here.


Are you really Ann Coulter? If so, can I have your autograph?


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Hitler!!!


Congratulations! You get today's Nazis Never Die Prize, today sponsored by EnGulf & DeVour, PLC, a wholly owned subsidiary of a shadowy ex-German corporation based in Argentina.

Todays prize is: a three-hour tour aboard the SS Minnow with Gilligan, the Skipper, too....

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Pulledpork said:


> Are you really Ann Coulter? If so, can I have your autograph?


Do you mean to imply she can type?

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I just had never been the first one to bring up Hitler in a thread before. I was feeling ignored.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I just had never been the first one to bring up Hitler in a thread before. I was feeling ignored.


Good gracious sir! The NNDP Prize Committee had no idea you were a Hitler Virgin. Since that's the case you may also claim Mary Ann or Ginger while on the tour, or even The Professor if that is more to your liking. Remember though, you have only three hours to play. :icon_smile_big:

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Pulledpork said:


> Are you really Ann Coulter? If so, can I have your autograph?


And now we get an insult for no reason other than I pointed out how you were obviously either lacking in reading comprehension or attempting to create an argument where there was none. Typical.

No need to go any further here.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I just had never been the first one to bring up Hitler in a thread before. I was feeling ignored.


I was not ignoring you. Just busy playing the latest moonbat.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'll take Mary Ann. Ginger's too butch.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Cool, Wayfarer!! I knew I could count on you for some desperately needed attention!!!

I probably should not have played the Hitler card. (Although since I'm white, the race card is really not available.)


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

radix023 said:


> Obama talks a good game but votes and prescribes policies that are consistently paleoliberal.
> 
> McCain has some conservative elements (strong military, smaller government, lower taxes) and some populist/leftist elements as well (objecting to high CEO compensation, "corporate welfare"). That makes him more of a centrist/moderate in my book. Should he win there is one place I hope he shows no moderation: vetoing spending/taxing bills and using the bully pulpit to shame members of Congress who are looting the public treasury.


There's the answer. Well said.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Nobody mentions Chuck Norris anymore, and thats a shame. Standing behind Huckabee in his karate stance, God on his side I never thought we would be discussing Obama and McCain. After all, in the real world of action heroes the black guy always dies first and the pilot is always late.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Kav said:


> Nobody mentions Chuck Norris anymore, and thats a shame. Standing behind Huckabee in his karate stance, God on his side I never thought we would be discussing Obama and McCain. After all, in the real world of action heroes the black guy always dies first and the pilot is always late.


:biggrin2: Thank you for that! Now I just have to clean up the water I just sprayed all over my desk in the course of a good laugh.

Cordially and a bit damp,
A.Q.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Quay said:


> It's really sad that not only is it a particularly bad metaphor but it isn't even historically accurate. I guess, though, that "Flavor-Aid" doesn't quite have the ring or cultural associations "Kool-Aid" does. In any case comparing a wonky difference of opinion with enforced mass suicide and murder is something a decent high school English teacher would have corrected. It's too bad that those who shout didn't first learn to listen.
> 
> Cordially,
> A.Q.


Quay,
I'll let your amusing reference to English teachers stand for what it is, but just for the record (and it is relevant): the suicide was largely unenforced -- that is what made it a suicide.


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> Quay,
> I'll let your amusing reference to English teachers stand for what it is, but just for the record (and it is relevant): the suicide was largely unenforced -- that is what made it a suicide.


How gracious of you but also unfortunately incorrect. I was also thinking of the six folks at the airport that day, the ones with all the bullets in them. Those were the murders. Sorry I didn't make that clear and put more after the "and" for those who don't remember that numerically smaller part of events that day.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> Agreed. Also, McCain has voted against GOP tax cut initiatives and is drinking the Global Warming -- oops, sorry, meant Climate change -- Kool-Aid. I think this makes him a moderate conservative overall. There is a reason why hard core conservatives have never been fans. On the other hand I am not aware of a single issue where Obama doesn't toe a doctrinairre liberal line. But perhaps I'm ill-informed. If so, I would welcome contrary information.


*Your problem* is you are only giving credit for one side of each issue. :devil:

Take, for example, school vouchers. Obama has been both "skeptical" and "open" to them.

https://www.nysun.com/national/obama-open-to-private-school-vouchers/71403/

I only know about the vouchers because my neighbor was arguing the same thing with me and tried to use Obama's new position on vouchers to argue he had a Republican/conservative approach to education.

Apparently, there is no issue on which Obama does not think he can nuance his way around a strict binary choice.

Another example is his "no preconditions", but now "not without preparations" answer to one-on-one Presidential negotiations with Iran.

The media is falling right into line claiming that any criticism of his triangulating positions is out-of-bounds. Pathetic; if not transparent.


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## Apthorpe (Apr 8, 2008)

Kav said:


> I walked outside and looked at my street. In the middle is a long yellow streak and a dead, very two dimensional skunk. NADER 2008


Hear, hear. Go Pat Go.

As to the poll, Obama is liberal. McCain is not conservative, but he's not as liberal as Obama, hence he must be closer to being a "moderate."


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Quay said:


> Hmm, let's try a little major media news editing on this.
> 
> Now we see Wayfarer is not only cursingly outraged but also secretly trying to undermine conservatism in the process.
> 
> ...


Hmm, changing my posts in a quote (and not bothering to bold the change so people would know). Now what poster do we remember here that became so outraged over having his posts changed (although they were bolded and had attention drawn to the changes)? One that seems to hold the same views as Quay...and lives in California. And Quay seems to have a knowledge of architecture and design in many of his posts. And what poster could never seem to stay away after quitting at least three times? Hmmm....


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## Quay (Mar 29, 2008)

Wayfarer said:


> Hmm, changing my posts in a quote (and not bothering to bold the change so people would know). Now what poster do we remember here that became so outraged over having his posts changed (although they were bolded and had attention drawn to the changes)? One that seems to hold the same views as Quay...and lives in California. And Quay seems to have a knowledge of architecture and design in many of his posts. And what poster could never seem to stay away after quitting at least three times? Hmmm....


Lighten up, Wayfarer. That was a joke (remember those things? :biggrin2, in support of you who was misquoted in this threaad. I'd have thought that "major media news editing" would have been a big clue to not take something seriously but apparently not big enough. My apologies for not using more smilies or obvious signs to tread lightly.

As to the rest of your post, what are you talking about? You seem to sound like a Brit unsuccessfully attempting to parody Agatha Christie.

Cordially,
A.Q.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

ksinc said:


> *Your problem* is you are only giving credit for one side of each issue. :devil:
> 
> Take, for example, school vouchers. Obama has been both "skeptical" and "open" to them.
> 
> ...


I agree that Obama is trying to triagulate in order to position himself as a moderate, but his actual record belies his current vague rhetoric. And I don't think taking a non-postion significantly alters his extremist record.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Quay said:


> How gracious of you but also unfortunately incorrect. I was also thinking of the six folks at the airport that day, the ones with all the bullets in them. Those were the murders. Sorry I didn't make that clear and put more after the "and" for those who don't remember that numerically smaller part of events that day.
> 
> Cordially,
> A.Q.


Thanks, understood. But I fail to see how the fact that the "numerically smaller" number of homicides were murders as opposed to suicides renders my description of the homicides as "largely" unenforced (i.e., suicides) "incorrect." But perhaps I misunderstand you.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Pulledpork said:


> No offence intended, but the mistake that you are making to to assume that the rest of the world (outside of the USA) sees the political spectrum in the same way that you do. Take the media in England for example: The editorial position of the Guardian newspaper represents the point of view of roughly the center ground of British politics. I know several Americans who describe themselves as "liberal" who think it is way out in left field. Another newspaper The Telegraph horrified an American "conservative" friend of mine as in an editorial he read it was supportive of a hereditary aristocracy.
> 
> When looking at Mr. Obama through the lens of British politics, he looks like a roughly middle of the road social democrat. That may be something you care about, and it may not.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Understood, and I agree that my comment was not made through the lens of British politics but American politics, which I thought to be more germane.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Pulledpork said:


> No offence intended, but the mistake that you are making to to assume that the rest of the world (outside of the USA) sees the political spectrum in the same way that you do.


No offence is possible since in this case no mistake has been made. Last I checked Obama was running for President of the United States, not Prime Minister of England so where he stands in the defined political spectrum of the US is a particularly interesting question. Where he stands in the political spectrum of England or France or East Timor is much less so.


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