# Do you ever wonder why you prefer "trad"?



## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

I recently completed a Myers - Briggs assessment and found I'm a ISTJ. This personality type is classified as a Traditionalist. I couldn't help but wonder, how many here have taken this assessment and which category (Traditionalist, Troubleshooter, Catalyst or Visionary) do you fall in?


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

I am an INTJ, but never thought about it in terms of my Trad clothes leanings. It will be interesting to see if this thread builds out if there is a trend toward certain letter combinations.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

For a second, I though you were being funny and were going to say you were a TNSIL on Myers Briggs. Yep, it's confirmed....


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## Fiddlermatt (Jul 3, 2013)

Fading Fast said:


> I am an INTJ, but never thought about it in terms of my Trad clothes leanings. It will be interesting to see if this thread builds out if there is a trend toward certain letter combinations.


I am INJT as well. I honestly don't know if personality types, but it will be interesting to see.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Fellow ISTJ here. "I" because I am definitely an introvert. "S" because I like analytical data and facts. If I were an "N", it would designate that I leaned more toward creativity, theories, and intuition (definitely not me). So ISTJ it is. My wife is a clinical psychologist. She would be happy to answer any questions.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

The last time I took one of those, I got ENTJ, which I suppose could explain a thing or two.

Or, I mean, it could be because I'm a Virgo. :icon_viking:


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

INTJ here; have always been very traditionally minded in my politics (Burkean flavored), my religion (Anglo-Catholic), my schooling (Classics with a focus on ancient Greek) - and, my clothing. 

It's complex though. Chesterton says that what people don't understand about conservatives is that at the heart of a true conservative is a true rebel.


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

SammyH said:


> It's complex though. Chesterton says that what people don't understand about conservatives is that at the heart of a true conservative is a true rebel.


I haven't heard that one before, but on some level I knew that. I like it.

INFJ, so I am introverted and yet judgmental. No wonder I like forum posting so much...

As for trad "style", I find that I very much like what it says about me in regards to my values and appreciation of fine materials and workmanship. In a larger sense I very much like what it _does not_ say about me relative to the prevailing winds of our culture, i.e. I don't value "comfort" above and beyond anything else in any given situation, I am not always interested in the "next thing" of men's style, and I don't feel the need or desire to overhaul my entire wardrobe every 2-3 years.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Barnavelt said:


> I haven't heard that one before, but on some level I knew that. I like it.
> 
> INFJ, so I am introverted and yet judgmental. No wonder I like forum posting so much...
> 
> As for trad "style", I find that I very much like what it says about me in regards to my values and appreciation of fine materials and workmanship. In a larger sense I very much like what it _does not_ say about me relative to the prevailing winds of our culture, i.e. I don't value "comfort" above and beyond anything else in any given situation, I am not always interested in the "next thing" of men's style, and I don't feel the need or desire to overhaul my entire wardrobe every 2-3 years.


I agree and I would add to that this: that there is something very important, and I would argue even spiritual, about the virtue of thrift. This is especially true in when we live in what is largely a throwaway culture. And so when I purchase something, I purchase it literally for my lifetime - I may spend a lot more at the moment of purchase ($700 on Shell etc.) but that article of clothing not only reflects good craftsmanship and quality, it is also and somewhat ironically thrifty when one compares that purchase to a cheap pair of throwaway shoes.

Also, I really value continuity through generations, and even within my own life. And clothes passed down or clothes worn for many years provide a kind of lovely continuity that I continually reflect upon; and those clothes take on a kind of character that no newly-bought clothing will have.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

INTJ here


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Straight up 50/50 in three out of four categories every time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

INTJ 

What do I win?


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm an INTJ as well. I suppose I'm fairly conservative in many respects, except for my politics (although, depending on who you ask, I may be so left wing that I am right wing, or as Normal Mailer once said, a "conservative marxist, achieving Burke's goals through Marx's means")

Anyway, I like this clothing for the same reason I like cow tongue and game meat. (1) it fits in with my ethics, (2) it makes for a nice shibboleth because it is really weird to some and uncannily normal to others (although this backfires occasionally), and (3) it reminds me of my grandfather, who was basically the best person I ever knew.

Sent from the TARDIS using the chameleon circuit


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Oh, and I like this clothing because it's expected to be a little mussy and wrinkled. I don't have to own an iron, make frequent trips to the dry cleaner, or worry about my clothes if I go straight from the church pew to the backwoods. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Trad-ish said:


> INTJ
> 
> What do I win?


Don't know about that, but I just Googled it and INTJs make up about 2% of the population, but my informal count of this thread so far is 5 INTJs (assuming that is what Fiddlematt meant and he just had a typo) out of 10 who identified a MB assessment. Hence, 50% of us (so far) are INTJs versus 2% in the general population - that is statistically interesting.


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## Ivygrad71 (Mar 22, 2014)

Looks like I am all alone!! ISTP here!

This portrait is pretty much spot on for me, scary accurate actually.

As an ISTP, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you deal with things rationally and logically. Your secondary mode is external, where you take things in via your five senses in a literal, concrete fashion. 
ISTPs have a compelling drive to understand the way things work. They're good at logical analysis, and like to use it on practical concerns. They typically have strong powers of reasoning, although they're not interested in theories or concepts unless they can see a practical application. They like to take things apart and see the way they work. ISTPs have an adventuresome spirit. They are attracted to motorcycles, airplanes, sky diving, surfing, etc. They thrive on action, and are usually fearless. ISTPs are fiercely independent, needing to have the space to make their own decisions about their next step. They do not believe in or follow rules and regulations, as this would prohibit their ability to "do their own thing". Their sense of adventure and desire for constant action makes ISTPs prone to becoming bored rather quickly.


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## MDP (Jan 14, 2012)

INFP

The reason I prefer trad is that I love fabric in general and fabrics with heft (wool sweaters, corduroy, tweed, knits) in particular.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

INTJ, clearly, each of the several times I took the test. Much more than "fairly" conservative, no matter which of my acquaintances might be asked. The personality type connects with my military service, profession, interests, activities and habits of life. Trad attire fits my ideas of privacy, simplicity, authority, quality and austerity, but I do not at all grasp the GTH element.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Its been so long since I've taken the assessment that I don't even remember what I am. Per the question though, I like trad clothing because it, to me, represents a sartorial "middle point", where it's very easy to dress up or dress down, depending on the situation. If you have two staples (a blue OCBD and khaki chinos), it's very easy to go in either direction.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Reuben said:


> Straight up 50/50 in three out of four categories every time.


LMAO!! Even your tendencies have tendencies.


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## Fraser Tartan (May 12, 2010)

I took the test about 20 years ago and was INTJ.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Don't recall and don't care about these tests, but I've never cared for a lot of embellishment on anything: straps, buckles, piping, trim, etc. Trad has always been the antithesis to Zoot, Mod, psychedelic, hipster and the like, just good clean lines. And materials that do a job, not make a statement.


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## Chevo (Jan 3, 2013)

:aportnoy: ENTJ... I find that my taste in clothing came from time spent with my grandfather. As a result, those sartorial tendencies have turned into an absolute passion and hobby for me. Rarely did I every witness my grandfather dressed in something other than a suit and tie.


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## Dr.Watson (Sep 25, 2008)

An ISTJ here as well. I am a bit of traditionalist in most areas of my life (incidentally, I much prefer that term to "conservative" politically). I think Burke called it a "reverence for antiquity."


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

INTJ as well. Pretty funny that there are so many on here. I guess it makes some sense.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

L-feld said:


> I'm an INTJ as well. I suppose I'm fairly conservative in many respects, except for my politics (although, depending on who you ask, I may be so left wing that I am right wing, or as Normal Mailer once said, a "conservative marxist, achieving Burke's goals through Marx's means")
> 
> Anyway, I like this clothing for the same reason I like cow tongue and game meat. (1) it fits in with my ethics, (2) it makes for a nice shibboleth because it is really weird to some and uncannily normal to others (although this backfires occasionally), and (3) it reminds me of my grandfather, who was basically the best person I ever knew.
> 
> Sent from the TARDIS using the chameleon circuit


I understand that Erich Fromm and Christopher Hitchens also claimed to be conservative marxists. I've read Hitchens memoirs. I would like to read this biography of Fromm : https://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-16258-6/the-lives-of-erich-fromm :icon_study:


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## Walter Denton (Sep 11, 2011)

It is indeed interesting that there are so many INTJ's on the forum, especially TJ's. I can see why Introverts would be here. We're communicating in a non-verbal format that gives us time to formulate well considered responses to other posts. Introverts often prefer written communication to direct verbal contact. I'm an INFP and the description of that type fits me quite well. I'm not the least bit conservative and I've never understood why this TNSIL style is so often associated with a conservative political outlook. Some of the most radical college professors I knew in the 1960's dressed in a very Ivy style. I am attracted to the style because of the emphasis on natural fabrics, cloth that feels good to touch, and I suppose because it was the clothing worn by men I admired 50 years ago. Can it be that I'm the only INFP in the room? Actually, that's not unusual.


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## ytc (Mar 20, 2012)

I am a well-confirmed INTJ.


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## sp999 (Dec 9, 2012)

INTP. This would also explain my outbursts at people who think there is only one way to dress well.


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

Barnavelt said:


> I haven't heard that one before, but on some level I knew that. I like it.
> 
> INFJ, so I am introverted and yet judgmental. No wonder I like forum posting so much...
> 
> As for trad "style", I find that I very much like what it says about me in regards to my values and appreciation of fine materials and workmanship. In a larger sense I very much like what it _does not_ say about me relative to the prevailing winds of our culture, i.e. I don't value "comfort" above and beyond anything else in any given situation, I am not always interested in the "next thing" of men's style, and I don't feel the need or desire to overhaul my entire wardrobe every 2-3 years.


+1, It seems to me appreciation of fine materials and workmanship ties into the sensing tendency in that details really matter to my "type". Another trait of this type is the practacality factor. It just isn't practical to change a wardrobe every 2 - 3 years or more frequently.


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

MDP said:


> INFP
> 
> The reason I prefer trad is that I love fabric in general and fabrics with heft (wool sweaters, corduroy, tweed, knits) in particular.


Hailing from Wisconsin, it's good to love those fabrics.


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

Trad-ish said:


> INTJ
> 
> What do I win?


As my father was fond of saying "you win the left handed walking stick".


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

phyrpowr said:


> Don't recall and don't care about these tests, but I've never cared for a lot of embellishment on anything: straps, buckles, piping, trim, etc. Trad has always been the antithesis to Zoot, Mod, psychedelic, hipster and the like, just good clean lines. And materials that do a job, not make a statement.


+1 very true


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

INFP.

"Adaptable, flexible, and accepting unless a value is threatened".

Surely not?


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## thegovteach (Dec 2, 2012)

I am trad because in the 70s when I was in college, this is the way the professors dressed. I attempted to do the same when I was teaching high school. 
Maybe people do not get the concept, but dressing like a teacher gets respect, and makes people think you know what you are talking about....even if you don't....( it makes you try to do your best job.....as my late dad said, " dress sloppy, your job often is sloppy....")


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Shaver said:


> INFP.
> 
> "Adaptable, flexible, and accepting unless a value is threatened".
> 
> Surely not?


I would have guessed INTJ, not FP based on your posts,
but I am so far from an expert that I shouldn't even have an opinion.


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## Lord Elgin (Jan 26, 2014)

I don't remember my personality type, but it was an E something and it confirmed in black and white what I already knew: not into details, low attention span, high on the intuition. So I don't have highly articulated, well-thought opinions to share here, as you may have noted, but I just feel this is the right place for me 

But OK, I have deep-rooted fond memories of my childhood years in the USA and an everlasting love for many things considered as "good old-fashioned american". From my viewpoint trad clothing is just that. So I guess I'm purely a sentimental romantic...but I do also highly appreciate the easy-going, comfortable clothing options Trad offers.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

thegovteach said:


> I am trad because in the 70s when I was in college, this is the way the professors dressed. I attempted to do the same when I was teaching high school.
> Maybe people do not get the concept, but dressing like a teacher gets respect, and makes people think you know what you are talking about....even if you don't....( it makes you try to do your best job.....as my late dad said, dress sloppy, your job often is sloppy....)


Your post is true words of wisdom. It has always amazed me how so many teachers dress like trash, particularly in big city school systems. Maybe they are trying to dress like the students to be accepted by the students. Long ago, school boards should have required all male teachers to at least wear a button down shirt with a tie, and banned polo shirts and tee shirts on classroom teachers.


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## Xaviair (Mar 29, 2014)

ENTJ
Similar to the above; I mostly wear trad because that's what most of the men in my family wore when they went through/worked for universities. Since I'm working at a "public Ivy" there wasn't any need to "transition" my daily workwear at all! (I'll shamefully admit that some of my best thrift finds have been darted worsteds, though...)


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Fading Fast said:


> I would have guessed INTJ, not FP based on your posts,
> but I am so far from an expert that I shouldn't even have an opinion.


INFP are often rather adept at suiting themselves to their situation and may, as example, employ the ascribed inferior function quite readily. Consider the shadow function of the INFP personality type, also. Now it makes more sense?


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Lots of us INTJ types here, pretty rare I was told. We are so particular about our stuff, we have become obsessed with the perfect fit, knot, shine, etc. That explains everything


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Very strong INTP here (80%+ in each category).

Also worth noting for those of you who took a real MBTI quite a while ago - your type changes throughout your life, especially along side major life changes like having children, moving, changing jobs, etc.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Incidentally, I'm a member of many other similarly dedicated (not clothing, but analogous) forums (private/invite only) - and we've had similar threads thrown up, and similarly found that 80-90% of the participants on those forums were also INTJ. Maybe it's that INTJ-ers just love the interplay, focus, discussion, minutia, the discerning of what's good/bad etc. - and forums in general are well suited to this type? LOL.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Brio1 said:


> I understand that Erich Fromm and Christopher Hitchens also claimed to be conservative marxists. I've read Hitchens memoirs. I would like to read this biography of Fromm : https://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-16258-6/the-lives-of-erich-fromm :icon_study:


I admire both of them and I'm glad to hear I'm in such good company.


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## Essential (Mar 20, 2012)

I have received INTJ on multiple occasions and INFJ on my first attempt. I haven't done another Myer-Briggs recently because the test is too broad to capture anything absolute.


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## TradThrifter (Oct 22, 2012)

I used to get INTJ a lot, but the last time I took the test I recieved an INFP


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

The last time I took this test, I got a score as close to the middle as possible. This might mean that I'm completely malleable, or that I have no personality, or utterly despise taking such tests (which I do), and somehow managed to game it.

I'm not sure that there's a single trad sensibility. Most American simply don't dress very well, so a full-on trad rig, in this context, might actually look willed, and not at all conservative. Today I got, "Ooh, a pocket square!" from a colleague, meaning that I don't look unassuming here, but quite the opposite.

Tom Ford's clothes are fairly trad, right? See Colin Firth's rigs in the film _A Single Man_, for example. Yet I don't think they represent anything conservative, except in the sense that these are good looks for men, and it would be a shame to let them be crushed by consumerism.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

I think the term "conservative" is misunderstood. It doesn't mean old fashioned or fuddy-duddy. It means conserving what is best about the past; which is an act of the will. As Chesterton said, if you want a white post to remain white over time, you have to DO something about it or it will over time revert to black. Conservatives are ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE fighting against the opposing tendencies in themselves and people around them; which is why "will" is most certainly involved, and why, again as Chesterton said, a true conservative is always a true rebel.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

SammyH said:


> I think the term "conservative" is misunderstood. It doesn't mean old fashioned or fuddy-duddy. It means conserving what is best about the past; which is an act of the will. As Chesterton said, if you want a white post to remain white over time, you have to DO something about it or it will over time revert to black. Conservatives are ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE fighting against the opposing tendencies in themselves and people around them; which is why "will" is most certainly involved, and why, again as Chesterton said, a true conservative is always a true rebel.


Well, generally speaking, "conservative" in this sense means either avoiding showiness or preserving tradition and resisting change. Fuddy-duddiness is entirely in the eye of the beholder and there are a lot of things in the trad forum that "outsiders" would consider fuddy duddy and you just have to either forget it and drive on or cave to fashion. You do realize that GK Chesterton was talking specifically about political parties of Great Britain, right? Those quotes have no real meaning when you apply them to the use of the word in the context of, for instance, the top piece of advice given on these forums: "You should wear a conservative charcoal suit for an interview."

Spoiler: that's the context in which the word is used in 99% of instances occurring on these forums outside of the Interchange.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Tilton said:


> Well, generally speaking, "conservative" in this sense means either avoiding showiness or preserving tradition and resisting change. Fuddy-duddiness is entirely in the eye of the beholder and there are a lot of things in the trad forum that "outsiders" would consider fuddy duddy and you just have to either forget it and drive on or cave to fashion. You do realize that GK Chesterton was talking specifically about political parties of Great Britain, right? Those quotes have no real meaning when you apply them to the use of the word in the context of, for instance, the top piece of advice given on these forums: "You should wear a conservative charcoal suit for an interview."
> 
> Spoiler: that's the context in which the word is used in 99% of instances occurring on these forums outside of the Interchange.


I realize exactly what Chesterton was talking about, lol, i've been reading him for 20 years. And actually, you are not exactly correct but I don't want to drag this too off topic.

The use with regard to clothing/appearance/manners is secondary and derives from the primary meaning to which I refer.

I am suggesting that the term is better understood when it is considered in light of that derivation.

To me, there are far better words for "lack of showiness" etc. and it avoids the confusion.

Moreover, when using the word "conservative" in the sense of "conserving the best of the past," it's a much richer and more evocative use of the word. It's also more correct.

And, because one is "conserving" the meaning of the word, it is, paradoxically, more conservative to do so.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

SammyH said:


> I realize exactly what Chesterton was talking about, lol, i've been reading him for 20 years. And actually, you are not exactly correct but I don't want to drag this too off topic.
> 
> The use with regard to clothing/appearance/manners is secondary and derives from the primary meaning to which I refer.
> 
> ...


There is no confusion on primary and secondary usages of the word, but it is used in a very particular manner with regard to clothing on these forums and I'm not sure you're quite grasping that nuance.

"Conserving the best part of the past" is a definition that you made up. You may find it richer and more evocative but it is certainly not more correct than the good ol' OED definition of (1.0) "Holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation" or (1.1) "(of dress or taste) somber and conventional."

Etymologically, the only use of "conservative" that doesn't make sense is using it to say "a conservative estimate" or similar so you're not really conserving anything by refusing to use a word for any secondary definition.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Tilton said:


> There is no confusion on primary and secondary usages of the word, but it is used in a very particular manner with regard to clothing on these forums and I'm not sure you're quite grasping that nuance.


It's not much of a nuance really. It's quite simple. And it's also a secondary meaning that has strayed a bit too far from the primary meaning of the word.



> "Conserving the best part of the past" is a definition that you made up. You may find it richer and more evocative but it is certainly not more correct than the good ol' OED definition of (1.0) "Holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation" or (1.1) "(of dress or taste) somber and conventional."


1. You don't appear to understand the nature of the OED and are obviously not very familiar with it. It is a DESCRIPTIVE dictionary; not a PROSCRIPTIVE dictionary.

2. The first "USAGE" there, is simply another way of saying "conserving the best of the past." <- this, however, is a bit more precise. And, incidentally, the OED articulation of its usage ("holding to traditional attitudes") is a bit off and a bit off-putting. At least to my ear. One doesn't hold onto ideas/attitudes/mores/behaviors/commitments etc. merely because they are "Traditional" but because they instantiate the true and good.



> Etymologically, the only use of "conservative" that doesn't make sense is using it to say "a conservative estimate" or similar so you're not really conserving anything by refusing to use a word for any secondary definition.


You're going to have to be clearer than that.

You must be INTJ too. LOL.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

All I'm really saying is that the "best" part is your own addition. Our language can be used however one wishes to convey meaning, which is really the beauty of English compared to many other languages. However, even Chesterton's definition seems to indicate that conservatives do not only preserve the best parts of past:



> The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist repents of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition.


INTP, but close enough.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

It always amazes me when folks can't grasp the concept that words can change meaning based on the time, place and context in which they are used. For example, in Glasnost-era Russia, Stalinists were "conservative." "Corporatists" don't advocate for a state run by business cartels. Hitler was not a "socialist" in the same way that Eugene V. Debs was. Pinochet was not a "liberal" in the same way Barack Obama is, although you could argue that he was (perhaps ironically) a liberal in the same was the Deng Xiaoping was.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Tilton said:


> All I'm really saying is that the "best" part is your own addition. Our language can be used however one wishes to convey meaning, which is really the beauty of English compared to many other languages. However, even Chesterton's definition seems to indicate that conservatives do not only preserve the best parts of past:
> 
> INTP, but close enough.


Well, it isn't I who has added the "best" but Richard Weaver, Russell Kirk, and countless others. And again, the "best" is implied: what else would you want to conserve except that which is enduring, significant, true, good, beautiful and permanent?


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

L-feld said:


> It always amazes me when folks can't grasp the concept that words can change meaning based on the time, place and context in which they are used. For example, in Glasnost-era Russia, Stalinists were "conservative." "Corporatists" don't advocate for a state run by business cartels. Hitler was not a "socialist" in the same way that Eugene V. Debs was. Pinochet was not a "liberal" in the same way Barack Obama is, although you could argue that he was (perhaps ironically) a liberal in the same was the Deng Xiaoping was.


A a published poet who has written poetry for more than 20 years, and as a classicist who has spent his life studying classical languages and how they changed over time and place, I assure you that I am quite aware of how languages do and do not change over time and in accordance with circumstances. LOL 

In above paragraph, you are glossing over so much as to render your examples exactly meaningless. I would be all-too-glad to go into detail about that and pick them apart. For example, the use of words in political propaganda is practiced precisely with the intention to deceive, which incidentally supports my point.

At any rate, probably everyone agrees that in many ways languages and words change. On the other hand, one doesn't need to verge upon, much less embrace, nominalism in oder to recognize this.

Be that as it may (the question of change v. status in language/meaning and in other contexts an enormous topic and something I LOVE to discuss), allow me to use this brief example to suggest something: just because a person wears suspenders AND a belt doesn't make it good or correct. Just because most people wear t-shirts, baggy jeans and sneakers doesn't make it good or correct. One might say, "well, things are changing - that's the way things are you know! - I can't believe people cannot grasp the concept that styles change! - and besides what right do you have to say it isn't good or correct?" Etc.

Similarly, just because people widely misuse words and steadily pull them altogether off their moorings, doesn't make it good or correct. Indeed, it can be quite destructive, as words are increasingly are unable to articulate distinct meaning. In "The Death of Words" C.S. Lewis said: "Men do not long continue to think what they have forgotten how to say."

So, to give an example of a word (I can mention thousands): 9 people out of 10 believe that the word "hypocrisy" means "failing to practice what one teaches." And this is, of course, how the word is now used. Unfortunately, this usage is somewhat close but entirely incorrect, and it is incorrect in such a way as to render the word incoherent, and thereby preclude a whole range of meaning and expression that are quite valuable. And what have we gained in return but a kind of vagueness? Because the word is now used simply as a emotional, subjective marker for approval or disapproval, and not as a precise description of a person and their behavior. The word "gentleman" also suffered this fate. Etc.

Words are essential to the generation of meaning and even of human community; and the use of words is akin to thinking. Nay, it IS thinking. And I shouldn't have to say why it is important that we think clearly and well; and all we have to do is look around us to see that most of the world is awash in very poor thinking indeed.

T.S. Eliot in "Little Gidding" writes of "purifying the dialect of the tribe" - doing so is one of the primary functions of the poet, the critic and the man of letters - and it is a function of such paramount importance that it is difficult to exaggerate.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

SammyH said:


> just because a person wears suspenders AND a belt doesn't make it good or correct. Just because most people wear t-shirts, baggy jeans and sneakers doesn't make it good or correct.


I think what L-Feld is saying is that it isn't incorrect, wrong, or bad either, and you seem to imply that it is.



SammyH said:


> So, to give an example of a word (I can mention thousands)


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Tilton said:


> I think what L-Feld is saying is that it isn't incorrect, wrong, or bad either, and you seem to imply that it is.


Yes, I think some ways of dressing (and thinking and talking and writing and being and eating and so on) are intrinsically superior to other ways of doing the same.

LOL at the video.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm reminded of that scene in Sabrina when the grumpy old fogey complains “I wish all these young men would stop wearing white jackets in the evening. They look like barbers!”

Style isn't eternal, it just changes slower than fashion.

Sent from the TARDIS using the chameleon circuit


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

L-feld said:


> I'm reminded of that scene in Sabrina when the grumpy old fogey complains "I wish all these young men would stop wearing white jackets in the evening. They look like barbers!"
> 
> Style isn't eternal, it just changes slower than fashion.
> 
> Sent from the TARDIS using the chameleon circuit


No, but the principles behind "style" are.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

L-feld said:


> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Probably that was the high fashion; and akin to a Paris runway photoshoot.

In any case, I said "principles" - which is by the way the reason why "style" changes more slowly than fashion.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Edmund Burke - fashion plate



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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Right, and that looks excellent as a matter of fact. 

You do understand the difference between principles and practice/manifestation, right? 

LOL?


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Someone - I'm not saying who - is either not keeping up; or is simply desperate to make a point. Any point. LOL.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

17th century athletic wear




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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

SammyH said:


> Right, and that looks excellent as a matter of fact.
> 
> You do understand the difference between principles and practice/manifestation, right?
> 
> LOL?


I will expect a photo in the trad WAYWT thread with your hair done in curls, then.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Ok, you're just a clown. Got it. LOL.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

L-feld said:


> I will expect a photo in the trad WAYWT thread with your hair done in curls, then.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You clearly don't understand what a "principle" is - either that or you are trying very hard to overwhelm with the thread with nonsense so that nobody sees how poorly you fared in our little debate.

LOL


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Let's test some "principles." I don't want to knock down any straw men, so why don't you give me something you think is a key principle.




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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

L-feld said:


> Let's test some "principles." I don't want to knock down any straw men, so why don't you give me something you think is a key principle.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


To be perfectly honest, you failed entirely to respond to a post I put some time into, so until and when you do that, I won't discuss this with you further.

I debate a great deal on philosophy forums and can readily identify people who really want to discuss things in detail, and those who just want to score points with cheap shots.

I shan't say which category you have already inserted yourself quite handily into.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Well, I thought I would argue by example, but I guess that isn't going to work. Allow me to summarize things thus far. You indicated that the word "conservatism" has some inherent, original meaning. I responded by saying that the word has had a number of meanings,often contradictory, based on context of time and place. In response, you indicated that, just because a word is used "incorrectly" en masse, doesn't mean that the one true meaning of the word has changed. You then gave an example relating to clothing, indicating that, just even if the majority of the population wore baggy jeans, it would still be sartorially incorrect, based on the guiding principles of sartorial correctness. 

I will assume for the purposes of this argument, that the purpose of language is to communicate and that the purpose of following sartorial conventions is, similarly, to communicate. If a word's original meaning is lost to the populace, then attempting to use it to convey that original meaning is something of a lost cause. You can gripe all you want about how society has lost the true original meaning of the word and you are the last person alive who truly understands language, but you will have lost the purpose of language. You will not be able to communicate. Want proof? Go to your nearest hardware store and ask to buy a ****** that you can throw in your fireplace. See where that gets you.

Perhaps even more important is the fact that many of our conventions are not even the originals and were, at one time, viewed as vulgar themselves. For example, it was considered extremely vulgar up until the 1850's to wear a jacket and trousers made of the same fabric. The lounge suit didn't really come into acceptance until the 1870's. As much as we like to say that there is a guiding principle that the continuous lines of the lounge suit somehow flatter the male body, the truth is that it is a convention that sprang up in the late 19th century. Basic idea of top/bottom proportionality only date to the early 19th century. Prior to that, men's clothes were distinctively top-heavy.

If you want to talk aesthetics, that's fine. I don't discount the concept of value completely. But it helps to be aware of how much we have been conditioned by our present society to think a particular value is correct.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

^
Please check your PM inbox, L-feld. Thanks...


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Barnavelt said:


> As for trad "style", I find that I very much like what it says about me in regards to my values and appreciation of fine materials and workmanship. In a larger sense I very much like what it _does not_ say about me relative to the prevailing winds of our culture, i.e. I don't value "comfort" above and beyond anything else in any given situation, I am not always interested in the "next thing" of men's style, and I don't feel the need or desire to overhaul my entire wardrobe every 2-3 years.


I agree with the general sentiment here. However, it kind of implies that there is a false choice between Trad and comfort. As I see it, Trad clothing is comfortable. Very comfortable in fact. There is no choice between the two to be made.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Do I ever wonder why I prefer "trad"??

Not really.

But I am very confident that I made a good decision!!


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I agree with the general sentiment here. However, it kind of implies that there is a false choice between Trad and comfort. As I see it, Trad clothing is comfortable. Very comfortable in fact. There is no choice between the two to be made.


Very true, I've never found trad clothing to be uncomfortable. I do find roped shoulder suits / sport coats to be very uncomfortable.


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## halbydurzell (Aug 19, 2012)

INOJ here!






I prefer trad because it's simple, cheapish (thirft stores), you are usually always dressed properly for any occasion, and, yes, the clothes are comfortable without being frumpy, lounge wear.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

halbydurzell said:


> I prefer trad because ... you are usually always dressed properly for any occasion.


I agree and will go a step further. It tends to make a good first impression. I've found that when dressed in Trad clothing, it is very easy to be treated well by others. Whether their station in life is high or low, it makes no difference. People will want to treat you in a civil manner.


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## halbydurzell (Aug 19, 2012)

Years ago I was denied entrance into a club because I was wearing sneakers. I railed against it at the time but today all i can think is "I went out for the evening wearing sneakers? Good grief!"

Side story: my friend had to take some schematics to a client of his a year ago and the client offered to meet him at the Harvard club in NY for lunch (the client was a member.) My friend shows up with the drawings wearing his $400 Jordan foamposites what have you, and was promptly turned away. He tried to argue about the high cost of his sneakers but whoever was working the door wasn't having it.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I'm an INTP.

_INTPs are armchair detectives, scientists and philosophers, spending most of their time in quiet reflection to ponder truth, and solve mysteries. They may tend to neglect social requirements and responsibilities, finding many relationships to be too superficial to be of much interest._

I think I need to wear more bow ties to make this INTP thing work.


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## Colonel Ichabod (Jun 4, 2013)

INTJ here. I moved towards trad because it allows me to be both dressed up and yet comfortable at the same time.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Patrick06790 said:


> I'm an INTP.
> 
> _INTPs are armchair detectives, scientists and philosophers, spending most of their time in quiet reflection to ponder truth, and solve mysteries. They may tend to neglect social requirements and responsibilities, finding many relationships to be too superficial to be of much interest._
> 
> I think I need to wear more bow ties to make this INTP thing work.


Interesting that as two of apparently three known INTPs on here we are both professional writers.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

halbydurzell said:


> Years ago I was denied entrance into a club because I was wearing sneakers. I railed against it at the time but today all i can think is "I went out for the evening wearing sneakers? Good grief!"
> 
> Side story: my friend had to take some schematics to a client of his a year ago and the client offered to meet him at the Harvard club in NY for lunch (the client was a member.) My friend shows up with the drawings wearing his $400 Jordan foamposites what have you, and was promptly turned away. He tried to argue about the high cost of his sneakers but whoever was working the door wasn't having it.


Several years back, for a period of time, my career in finance had me regularlly going to several private clubs for business lunches and dinners and other meetings and it was like a step back in time to a Trad world. All of them (to my memory) required jacket and ties (not only in the dinning rooms, but throughout the club other than in the athletic areas, but even then, you couldn't come through the main areas in that attire). So for a brief moment, you were in a world where everyone was dressed in jackets and ties (and most were pretty conservative - Brooks, Oxford, etc., and seersucker and linen were common in the summer) and it quickly felt normal. So normal in fact that when, only a few hours later, I would leave, it was jarring to see the non-trad-attired real world of NYC passing by. I always looked forward to those meetings / meals as they had a time travel quality to them.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Fading Fast said:


> So normal in fact that when, only a few hours later, I would leave, it was jarring to see the non-trad-attired real world of NYC passing by. I always looked forward to those meetings / meals as they had a time travel quality to them.


Although not a private club, you can still find places like that if you look hard enough. For example, in the right church and the right service, you can find well-dressed parishioners in attendance. In my neck of the woods, it's very early on Sunday, before the ones who attend the later services in their NY Giant jerseys and blue jeans roll out of bed.


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Tilton said:


> Interesting that as two of apparently three known INTPs on here we are both professional writers.


INTP here, too. Still a student-not for very long- but I have my eyes set on the written word as well.

More broadly, I'm not particularly surprised to see a _vast_ predominance of INs here, namely the TS and TJ subtypes, though they account for a rather small portion of the population.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Mark me down as an INTJ who has written professionally for a substantial amount of my career.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Although not a private club, you can still find places like that if you look hard enough. For example, in the right church and the right service, you can find well-dressed parishioners in attendance. In my neck of the woods, it's very early on Sunday, before the ones who attend the later services in their NY Giant jerseys and blue jeans roll out of bed.


That's interesting and nice. Less sublime, you used to be able to find that in fine restaurants in NYC, but now, with almost no exceptions, the dress codes are gone and a meaningful number of the patrons will show up in jeans, sneakers, etc. (even if they are the expensive versions of those items, there is still a loss of elegance).


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

Fading Fast said:


> I am an INTJ, but never thought about it in terms of my Trad clothes leanings. It will be interesting to see if this thread builds out if there is a trend toward certain letter combinations.


Ditto.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

halbydurzell said:


> INOJ here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oy, that brings me back to middle school. I've always preferred the original RFTW version, though.


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## LouB (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm ENFP

 Originally Posted by *Fading Fast* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1542651#post1542651
_I am an INTJ, but never thought about it in terms of my Trad clothes leanings. It will be interesting to see if this thread builds out if there is a trend toward certain letter combinations._

We can add this 2007 thread to the analysis pool (sorry if the link has already been posted):

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?64978-Myers-Brigg-and-Trad/page2


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## Jchuck61 (Apr 27, 2014)

ISTJ here as well. Seems to be a trend….


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Fraser Tartan and LouB - thank you for the link to the other threads. My humble (truly, as I know very little about Myers Briggs) observation is that INTJs are about 2% of the general population but are a meaningfully higher number of our Ask Andy population.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Fading Fast said:


> Several years back, for a period of time, my career in finance had me regularlly going to several private clubs for business lunches and dinners and other meetings and it was like a step back in time to a Trad world. All of them (to my memory) required jacket and ties (not only in the dinning rooms, but throughout the club other than in the athletic areas, but even then, you couldn't come through the main areas in that attire). So for a brief moment, you were in a world where everyone was dressed in jackets and ties (and most were pretty conservative - Brooks, Oxford, etc., and seersucker and linen were common in the summer) and it quickly felt normal. So normal in fact that when, only a few hours later, I would leave, it was jarring to see the non-trad-attired real world of NYC passing by. I always looked forward to those meetings / meals as they had a time travel quality to them.


I've attended several different lodges where the members were wearing a tie and jacket. It wasn't a compulsory dress code (we had all just gotten off of work and gone straight there), but it was neat to be around a group of guys dressed the same as me (and as jarring as you describe to walk out of the building into the "real world")


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

We're all taking this _cum grano salis_, right? This test isn't considered to have much value, at least not by psychologists.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

orange fury said:


> I've attended several different lodges where the members were wearing a tie and jacket. It wasn't a compulsory dress code (we had all just gotten off of work and gone straight there), but it was neat to be around a group of guys dressed the same as me (and as jarring as you describe to walk out of the building into the "real world")


A coat and tie, suit and tie, or tuxedo is the standard for any Virginia lodge. If you're not wearing proper attire, it is assumed that you just got off work from your day job welding Caterpillars (which is not a bad thing), and even most of those guys manage to put on a tie.


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## sp999 (Dec 9, 2012)

I was reading wikipedia about fashion in the 1980's and under men's fashion they described "The preppy look"

Quote


Contemporaneously, there was a resurgence of another look, a throwback to the earlier 1950s collegiate look or Ivy League look. Its wearers and advocates rallied against the more trendy styles cited above..... Preppies eschewed micro-suede jackets, instead favoring a classic single or double-breasted blazer in navy blue or midnight blue seasonal weight wool or linen. The truly privileged favored an English bespoke shouldered pattern, double vented.... Beneath the blue jacket, Preppies donned a variety of shirts; prized were candy-stripes and solid colors; flashy Hawaiian patterns or designs were to be avoided, at all costs, to protect one's perceived upper-class status. 
Endquote

That got me thinking. What do Trads think of preppies. Do you like trad because you identify with preppies? Do you consider yourself a preppy?


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

sp999 said:


> I was reading wikipedia about fashion in the 1980's and under men's fashion they described "The preppy look"
> 
> Quote
> 
> ...


Never considered myself preppy. I tend toward trad clothing becuase I prefer the look and it's something that is comfortable.


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## FiscalDean (Dec 10, 2011)

sp999 said:


> I was reading wikipedia about fashion in the 1980's and under men's fashion they described "The preppy look"
> 
> Quote
> 
> ...


I think one of the differences, in my mind, between "preppy" and "trad" would be that a preppy may avoid a Hawaiian shirt while a trad would consider the pattern as a GTH statement.


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## The Deacon (Nov 25, 2006)

At about the age of seven, I saw a photo of my great uncle where he is seated with a three piece light-grey flannel suit and cognac double soled wing tips. I've been hooked on the look ever since...


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## peterc (Oct 25, 2007)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I agree and will go a step further. It tends to make a good first impression. I've found that when dressed in Trad clothing, it is very easy to be treated well by others. Whether their station in life is high or low, it makes no difference. People will want to treat you in a civil manner.


1000% correct.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

SlideGuitarist said:


> We're all taking this _cum grano salis_, right? This test isn't considered to have much value, at least not by psychologists.


I like making cracks about astrology whenever it comes up, but apparently that kind of eye-rolling is par for the course for a EN-whatever, and for a Virgo, so they've got me there.



sp999 said:


> I was reading wikipedia about fashion in the 1980's and under men's fashion they described "The preppy look"


I recently took an online "which Twin Peaks character are you" quiz, and there was some question like "how would you describe your sense of style." I hesitated for a split second, and my girlfriend said to me "Don't you dare even think about putting something down other than 'preppy'..."

So it's similar. People often want to make "preppy" into a whole aspirational lifestyle, and it doesn't make much sense to do that with "trad," which is basically big-tent Ivy style.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

sp999 said:


> I was reading wikipedia about fashion in the 1980's and under men's fashion they described "The preppy look"
> 
> Quote
> 
> ...


I like a lot of things that overlap with "preppy," but it depends what you mean by "preppy." In Baltimore, that usually refers to Lax bros, who are more or less the bane of my existence.

I'm more at home with old curmudeonly east coast academic types. And that's why I prefer the term "U.H.B."


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## KJD89 (Aug 10, 2011)

INTJ

I like the trad look probably for the same reason I liked the hard mod/skinhead look of the 60's and 70's - it's simple, stripped down, and rougher than most, while still being clean, sharp, and versatile. The whole "Go To Hell" aspect of both looks appeal to me as well - looking sharp, while still looking like myself. It's not a stale look unless you make it one. You can still express yourself while sticking to a uniform and without coming off as a peacock. 
subtleties...


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

I have always tested borderline ISTJ/INTJ. However, it should be noted that INTJs seem to dominate online forums, so any prevalence of that type here may say more about our internet habits than our dress. 

I do like tradition and having a connection to something I feel is larger than myself. When I wear my loafers or boat shoes, I think of all the respectable men in my family that I aspire towards. The Ivy League look exemplifies to me good American values and ambition. 

It also translates easily from work to play. You can't beat it.


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## Monocle (Oct 24, 2012)

INTJ - wow, a lot of us on here. 

I'm trying to correlate the two. Without putting too much stock in the assessment itself, the feedback was rather interesting. Off the top, I think it appeals to the sense of not being overly concerned about critics. But reality is that most people, I think, quietly admire those who wear trad well. And INTJ's would naturally perceive this, though actually shy from too much attention about it. 

But perhaps that is the abiding confidence the assessment indicated? Being cleverly confident about dress and grooming and allowing it to elevate us in our own mind,.. allowing, and even maybe wanting others to notice us or perceive us as different or aloof...though stopping short of allowing it to actually make us feel elitist, because inside we are soft mushy empathizers, who when challenged emotionally and socially, people do realize we are actually quite accessible...maybe?


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Personality types aside, what I get from this very interesting forum is a clarification of what I like:
* Like many, I picked this up at school, having attended a public high school that, by virtue of zoning in what was mostly an upscale section of a Southern city, was a de facto prep school. Quite literally and to my benefit, for, not belonging at all to that elite, I enjoyed the privilege of college preparatory courses. The clothes were part of the package.
* Though I had not trad elders per se, I'm old enough for the generation above me to have worn traditional clothes and have traditional attitudes toward proper dressing, much of which translates into what we here call trad.
* In my youth, dandyism was trad -- or as we called it then Ivy League. Such flash as madras and white bucks, and a fastidiousness about natural shoulders, hooked vents and repp ties. As was hipsterism -- check out what jazzmen, the original hipsters, wore for decades, though they often mixed it with what we called Continental, the Italian influence of midcentury.
* Trad clothes are rugged. They wear longer and, doubtedlessly due to the influence of British country clothing, won't fall apart under stress.
* Trad clothes are comfortable. The American thrust toward casual comfort is embodied here while keeping a sense of propriety. They won't bind or pinch. And a little wrinkling is OK, so no fuss.
* Trad clothes are cheap. Thrifted they're so cheap it's ridiculous. But if one looks at the cost of a suit or a shirt back when Brooks Brothers was, well, Brooks Brothers, they cost a fraction of what designer duds charged, plus they were better made and did not require a whole new wardrobe when fashions changed.
* In the end, if a man wants to dress well there are only two choices. Bespoke, of course. There's nothing like it, and once you learn about how clothes should fit and only will if you wear bespoke, you are doomed to suffer unless you are wealthy. And trad, if you are willing to compromise in knowing that, yes, there are a few imperfections here and there because they were not made to your body, but since the trad aesthetic encompasses a little slouch and droop, no big problem. There are men who can afford to wear bespoke trad -- and I don't mean made-to-measure, which is only a simulacrum of bespoke -- and sartorialists are divided on the question of whether that makes any sense at all, mostly on the polemic of whether a man's suit should follow the man's natural lines or improve on them, and not being an expert, I leave the debate to others. Since I assume this community of thrifters is not making regular visits to their tailors to pick out fabric and order new suits, thrift on in good health!


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