# Experiences with Crockett & Jones Handgrade?



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

What do people think about these shoes?

I may be in Charleston soon and thought I may try a pair from Ben Silver. I guess I'm most curious about fit, durability and overall construction/style...any opinions or advice?

Are they still a decent value at $595?


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

By all means, stop by Ben Silver, have a look at the shoes, and try some on. It will be interesting and educational if nothing else. Some of the styles, like this Adelaide and this spectator shoe, are rarely seen anywhere from any maker.

Ultimately, you have to decide for yourself whether the shoes represent good value, based on how they fit you and how you like the features that they offer. For me, they do not. I own the Mortimer monkstrap (purchased from Ben Silver), the Downing wingtip (purchased from Pediwear), and the Cornhill chasse (purchased from Tom James when they discontinued the shoe last summer and blew it out at absurdly low prices). I don't wear any of them very often for a variety of reasons. First, the 330 last, which all of the shoes I own are made on, is too wide in the heel and too shallow around the arch for me. If I wear the shoes all day, the tops of my feet will be sore and I will have blisters on my heels. Second (and this is going to sound really strange), I hate the configuration of the sockliner and the heel pad underneath it. The heel pad is close enough to the edge of the upper that the edge of the sock liner does not make contact with the insole. As I wear the shoe during the day, the sock liner becomes wet with perspiration from my foot; and it starts to make rude noises as it rubs up against the lining of the shoe as I walk. Third, the details of the shoes are lacking when compared to EG or JL Paris shoes. Take the Cornhill chasse, for example. This shoe is a copy of the EG Dover, with the handstitched apron and toe seam. This handstitching isn't nearly as pretty or as well-done as it is on the Dover or even the JL Paris Chambord. On the shoes that I have, the sides of the heels aren't as even or as well-finished as they are on EG and JL Paris shoes, nor is the quality of the closing of the flap over the channel on the sole. The shoes are antiqued, but the antiquing does not have nearly the visual impact that it does on EG shoes. But, you protest, C&J Handgrade shoes cost significantly less than EG or JL Paris shoes. True enough, but I would rather pay the price differential and get the EG and JL Paris shoe. The EG and JL Paris shoes that I have get worn; the C&J Handgrades do not. And it's not just a matter of price: I have many, many shoes that are priced lower than C&J Handgrades, and they get plenty of wear.

All of what I have written above is strictly personal. I do not intend to contend that C&J does not produce excellent shoes, merely that they do not produce shoes that have enough value to me to justify their price. Other people may come to different conclusions. Take a look and decide for yourself.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks jcusey for the feedback.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Thanks jcusey for the feedback.


For me, the only one of the three big English shoe companies that is at all inspiring is JL Paris. I spent a good bit of time in the CJ shop in Paris and was not overly impressed.

What impressed me a ton there was the Dimitri Bottier line. Those are absolutly superb, and, IMO probably the most beautiful English shoes (although made in France) made today. Absolutly stunning.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

iammatt said:


> What impressed me a ton there was the Dimitri Bottier line. Those are absolutly superb, and, IMO probably the most beautiful English shoes (although made in France) made today. Absolutly stunning.


Dimitri Bottier . The Dimitri is Dimitri Gomez, who designed the 337 last (and maybe others, too) for C&J. He also is a bespoke cordwainer (though he also sells a demi-mesure product that is handmade like the bespoke product but is made on stock lasts) whose work appears to be excellent.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Dimitri Bottier . The Dimitri is Dimitri Gomez, who designed the 337 last (and maybe others, too) for C&J. He also is a bespoke cordwainer (though he also sells a demi-mesure product that is handmade like the bespoke product but is made on stock lasts) whose work appears to be excellent.


I ordered one of the demi-mesure shoes and should have it at teh end of the month. I will report when it arrives.

Very nice guy, and the shoes were much more appealing to my eye than either JL or EG bespoke.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

JCusey makes an interesting point I have wondered about and that is what last are some of the US retailed C&J made shoes using.

I have C&J from UK on the 337 last (the Weymouth) and the Polo Benton and Tellman. I see much less volume under the vamp in the Polo retailed shoes. I suspect it is not the 337 but don't know that.

In answer to the original question, I think the shoes are very well made in a stout kind of way. They are heavy and constructed well but a bit stiff overall. And that can be a good thing for longevity. Are they worth $595??? Hmmm, are JL Paris prestige line worth $1440. Are EG worth $950.

If you can say yes to that than I suppose the C&J shoe is surely worth $595 if they fit you and you like them. 

And although they definitely are a better shoe (IMHO) than my Aldens or AEs, they don't evoke the same emotion with me as JL Paris Prestige, EG or even my Bontonis or Barker Blacks which have driven me to pay retail recently.

I suppose I am being really longwinded about saying they are really good shoes and if a pair captures your fancy and you pay $595 you certainly are not throwing money away but getting reasonable value and a shoe that will last a heck of a long time.

Perry


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

The one problem I have with Crockett & Jones are the two-piece heel counters.

I am referring to the visible heel cap, which is a traditional feature of certain styles (like a full brogue). Apart from the decorative, they also serve the purpose to protect the back seam. The back seam is the most vulnerable part of any shoe (think of people squeezing their foot into a shoe without the aid of a shoe horn).

Various methods have been developed over the decades to strengthen this seam: ‘dog’s ear’ or ‘dog’s tail’ is a crescent shaped extension in the upper section, preventing the seam going right up to the top. ‘Back strap’ is a strip of leather (about ½” wide) covering the seam and again taking the tension off. The heel counter is just the extension of this back strap principle. Virtually all manufacturers I know, cut the heel counter in one piece, RTW shoes usually have a dart ¾” long to give shape to the lower section, bespoke, handmade shoes can ease the fullness in without the dart.

Crockett & Jones cut that heel counter in two pieces. Reasons unknown, in my opinion just to save a few pence on the leather (there is less waste, in placing two smaller pieces than one large one). Introducing an additional seam, means that the seam protecting aspect of the heel counter doesn’t work. So they have to introduce an additional ‘dog’s ear’. Which makes rather a messy back view of the shoe.

Under whatever label C&J produce, all shoes seem to have that divided two-piece heel counter. I checked last week in Munich, all the ‘Peduform’ range at Ed Meier, the shoes at Unützer as well as the brand “Alt-Wien” (Old-Vienna) have their two-piece heel counters (if a particular model has a heel counter). Needless to say, they are all made by C&J.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

I have a couple of pairs of CJ Handgrades on the 337 last. I'm not a huge shoe buyer but I do have some JLP and Ferragamo Tramezzas for comparison as well as an array of other lesser shoes, but no Edward Green.

I like the 337 Handgrades for 2 reasons - first they look elegant to my eyes and second they happen to fit me very, very well indeed. More so than any other last I have encountered so far. Of course, this is a purely personal thing, but weighs heavily in my mind and perhaps accounts for my very positive impression of these shoes. 

I will say that the leather is somewhat stiffer than, say, JLP. And I have little knowledge of construction details of shoes. But I find the 337 handgrades an elegant, well-fitting shoe and so I cannot help but like them and think them good value.


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## Pickwick (Dec 24, 2005)

Last week, I ordered several of the 337 Handgrades, and should be receiving them very soon.

I'll offer you my views once I have them.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

bengal-stripe said:


> The one problem I have with Crockett & Jones are the two-piece heel counters.
> 
> I am referring to the visible heel cap, which is a traditional feature of certain styles (like a full brogue). Apart from the decorative, they also serve the purpose to protect the back seam. The back seam is the most vulnerable part of any shoe (think of people squeezing their foot into a shoe without the aid of a shoe horn).
> 
> ...


A heel counter is, if I understand correctly, an additional piece of leather that runs around the heel, ending up somewhere along the quarters. A perusal of the C&J Handgrade line shows that only a small minority of the models have such a feature, particularly those made on the 337 last. Of Ben Silver's models--many on other lasts than the 337--again a minority have the heel counter. Thus, it's likely Artisan Fan will not encounter the two-piece heel counter with a pair of C&J Handgrades.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> What do people think about these shoes?
> 
> I may be in Charleston soon and thought I may try a pair from Ben Silver. I guess I'm most curious about fit, durability and overall construction/style...any opinions or advice?
> 
> Are they still a decent value at $595?


If you're asking this question at the specific price noted, you might get a slightly different answer than you'd get if you asked whether C&J Handgrades can be good value for money. Ben Silver's regular, non-sale prices are very high, and his stock of the more-favored 337-lasted Handgrades seems low, with several of the models he carries made on the 330 last, as Jcusey has noted, and few on the 337. I too have the Downing from Ben Silver, but solely because it was the only place I could get a full-brogue Handgrade in burgundy. In addition, I also have the Mortimer, but only because I was able to get it at a sale price of $262.50 from Ben Silver. Both are on the rounder 330 last. In my opinion, then, C&J Handgrades at $595 are probably not badly overpriced, but, at the same time, not really good value for the money.

However, the C&J Handgrade last that gets shoe aficionados' hearts fluttering is the 337, and you can get most of the 337-lasted models from P. Lal for about $400 US. I understand that Shyam Doshi will, on occasion, include shipping for that price too. If you were, therefore, to ask the question "Are C&J Handgrade shoes on the 337 last a decent value at $400?" there's no doubt in my mind that the answer would be resoundingly in the affirmative. This would put them at about 42% of the price of a pair of EGs, and it would be hard to argue that the latter are worth almost 2.5 times more. I say this as a person who has the two pairs of C&J Handgrades noted, along with four pairs of EGs; thus, I'm certainly not anti-EG. In my opinion, the EGs are somewhat more refined than the Handgrades, and there's no question that the antiquing is greatly superior to that found occasionally on C&J Handgrades (which many models don't have at all). Still, the Handgrades are very, very nice British shoes. As has been noted by others, fit is all-important, but if you find that they fit you well, you will be well- and stylishly-shod indeed with a pair.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

bengal-stripe said:


> So they have to introduce an additional 'dog's ear'. Which makes rather a messy back view of the shoe.


C&J's dog's ear is a bit odd, too. It's not typically a crescent-shaped tab like just about every other manufacturer uses. Rather, it's rectangular- or trapezoidal-shaped. I don't much care for it.



Roger said:


> Of Ben Silver's models--many on other lasts than the 337--again a minority have the heel counter. Thus, it's likely Artisan Fan will not encounter the two-piece heel counter with a pair of C&J Handgrades.


Well, Ben Silver carries the Berkeley half-brogue, the Albany Adelaide punch-cap, the Downing full brogue, and the Cornhill chasse, all of which have the split heel counter with the dog's ear that bengal-stripe complains of. But, as you say, AF can avoid it if it bothers him like it bothers bengal.


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## TKDKid (Mar 20, 2004)

*The offending heel counter...*

Hmm that does look a bit odd.


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## Don Goldstein (Dec 25, 2005)

What other (conservative dress) shoes would people recommend in the C&J handgrade price range (i.e., $400 - $600 per pair)?


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

They are the best in that price range.

Perry


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Don Goldstein said:


> What other (conservative dress) shoes would people recommend in the C&J handgrade price range (i.e., $400 - $600 per pair)?


Grenson Masterpieces, currently available only at Paul Stuart, are very good shoes and come in slightly above your price range. Other possibilities include (Albaladejo), either in calf or shell cordovan (available at Peter Eliot in NYC, in Cambridge, Mass., and a few other US outlets), (some nice and very conservative welted shoes at Bergdorf Goodman in NYC), and (much of what you see is more fashion-forward, but Gravati is more than capable of making very classic shoes).


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## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Grenson Masterpieces, currently available only at Paul Stuart, are very good shoes and come in slightly above your price range. Other possibilities include (Albaladejo), either in calf or shell cordovan (available at Peter Eliot in NYC, in Cambridge, Mass., and a few other US outlets), (some nice and very conservative welted shoes at Bergdorf Goodman in NYC), and (much of what you see is more fashion-forward, but Gravati is more than capable of making very classic shoes).


I would add Ferragamo Tramezzas to John's fine list of options. Though they might be a tad bit more if not found on sale.


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## SGladwell (Dec 22, 2005)

Don Goldstein said:


> What other (conservative dress) shoes would people recommend in the C&J handgrade price range (i.e., $400 - $600 per pair)?


What Mssrs C & P wrote, plus Ludwig Reiter. In the states they're pretty ridiculous, but I recently bought two pairs, black calf Chelsea boots - or, more properly, "Militär-Zugstiefeletten," as they're based on the pattern used by the K.u.K. army - and reddish caramel Budapester in shell cordovan. Including shipping to the US from their Salzburg shop they totaled around $800.

Also Wilson & Dean, though I think that's just a line Gravati makes for Wilkes.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

SGladwell said:


> What Mssrs C & P wrote, plus Ludwig Reiter. In the states they're pretty ridiculous, but I recently bought two pairs, black calf Chelsea boots - or, more properly, "Militär-Zugstiefeletten," as they're based on the pattern used by the K.u.K. army - and reddish caramel Budapester in shell cordovan. Including shipping to the US from their Salzburg shop they totaled around $800.


Do you know anyone in the US who carries Reiter? I know that Louis Boston had the trainers at one time, but I have not heard of anyone carrying the regular line.



> Also Wilson & Dean, though I think that's just a line Gravati makes for Wilkes.


Yes, I believe that this is correct. Wilson & Dean have the shoe concession for Wilkes Bashford. I have heard that before JL Paris would allow W&D to carry their shoes, W&D made quite a good business by having Gravati knocking the JL Paris designs off.


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## SGladwell (Dec 22, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Do you know anyone in the US who carries Reiter? I know that Louis Boston had the trainers at one time, but I have not heard of anyone carrying the regular line.


I've seen the Reiter Sport sneakers at Louis and I'm pretty sure I saw the regular LR's at Barney's (could've been BG), albeit at comical prices. (A calf oxford was $850, IIRC.)

Except for one pair of denim and suede Reiter Sports I picked up at FB in Boston (from a Louis shipment) I've bought all of mine at their Vienna or Salzburg locations. Salzburg more commonly, because they have a lovely Irish saleswoman who reminds me of my mother....


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

i don't think i've ever encountered a compaint about c&j handgrades in this forum or at the other forum. and i myself am satisfied with mine. a good intersection between the price and quality axes.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Wilson and Dean is really just Wilson. Paul Dean passed away about a year into their partnership. The Gravati selection at Wilkes is the best going. The Lobbs are nice, but they are jus Lobb prestige line. It is not like they pick and choose, and it is pretty hard to make a mistake from that lineup. The rest of the shoe selection leaves a lot to be desired, and has gotten worse over the years.


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