# Looking to buy a new/used car



## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm thinking of buying a new/used vehicle sometime in the near future and wanted some advice. Normally, I hate car shopping because I find the whole used car salesman cliche a bit tiring. I hate haggling and want to be in and out of the car lot as quickly as possible. 

I'm currently driving my wife's 2004 Ford Focus which is a solid runner. I'll continue to use this car as my beater commuter car until I decide on a new one. We also have a 2010 Honda CRV which my wife drives, so i'm definitely leaning towards a Honda Accord for myself. Honda's reputation is attractive and their used prices on 2011-2012 Accord models are decent enough. My experience with our local Honda dealer was also a good one. The salesman didn't pressure us into buying something we didn't want, but we still had to haggle. We probably spent a couple of hours at least getting the price down and working out the down payment and financing. 

My question is, what is the standard reduction a dealership is willing to take off of a used vehicle? Have any of you ever worked for a dealership? If so, could you shed some light on this? I'm not looking to lowball the dealership and I'm assuming some of the prices i've looked at are in line with the KBB value. Is haggling even worth the effort if it means I can save $500-1000? I've read that Carmax is a good place to buy a car, unfortunately, the nearest Carmax to me is in Madison, WI, which is still a haul.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

In my experience, it is safe to assume that the dealership paid approximately the KBB Good Trade-In value for the car, maybe less if it came from an auction. But, assume that's what they paid and assume that you can get them down 5-10% off of their asking price if it is also in line with KBB's dealer prices. One thing, though, that is probably helpful: figure out how much you're willing to pay on, say, a 2012 Accord with 40,000 miles, leather, and nav, and go from there, being fully prepared to walk away if it is not within the range you think it should be. The better deals on cars are found on those being sold by individuals. A dealership may have offered them $10k for that Accord and your $12k splits the difference between the lot price and the trade-in price.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

That is sound advice and since you're looking at an Accord they aren't exactly rare. That allows you to have a bit more negotiation ability than looking for a more rare model. I would set a fair price in your mind, then offer them less than that. Once they work up to your price let them know you will not go above that and that you don't need to buy the car and are ready to shop elsewhere. If they still won't work with you leave them your phone number and walk out. Keep looking elsewhere to see what you can find and you never know they may call you and offer a better deal. That's what I did with my last purchase, I did not need to get the car so I gave them my price and walked out. The sales manager called me about 2 hours later and said he could meet my price if I wanted to come back in and talk. They did, and I negotiated a lower interest rate as well. Know all your numbers before you walk in and don't just take their word for it, if it's not what you're comfortable with then walk.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

dwebber18 said:


> That is sound advice and since you're looking at an Accord they aren't exactly rare. That allows you to have a bit more negotiation ability than looking for a more rare model. I would set a fair price in your mind, then offer them less than that. Once they work up to your price let them know you will not go above that and that you don't need to buy the car and are ready to shop elsewhere. If they still won't work with you leave them your phone number and walk out. Keep looking elsewhere to see what you can find and you never know they may call you and offer a better deal. That's what I did with my last purchase, I did not need to get the car so I gave them my price and walked out. The sales manager called me about 2 hours later and said he could meet my price if I wanted to come back in and talk. They did, and I negotiated a lower interest rate as well. Know all your numbers before you walk in and don't just take their word for it, if it's not what you're comfortable with then walk.


the frustrating thing for me is trying to keep track of the different models of the Accord (ie. SE, EX, LE) and assessing value. I don't need a fancy Accord V6 with all the bells and whistles. I prefer low mileage and maybe specific colors and then I decide on price. When we bought our CRV the salesman was nice and I felt that he tried his hardest to _earn _our business. Prior to buying our CRV my wife and I had looked at Subarus and the salesmen on the lot were horrible. They weren't very friendly and I felt they didn't try to earn our business. The entire process was very tiring. For example, when we looked at a couple of Subarus the response we got was, "you better act fast because these cars are going to sell right away." It felt very passive aggressive. Keeping in mind too that Subarus are incredibly expensive, so feeling pressured to buy one of their cars because 'it will sell right away' was annoying.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Cars. I've bought and sold a zillion, owing to the fact that I drove $500 cars practically forever and only recently started driving anything decent. Still, my goal remains the same: To get from Point A to Point B the cheapest way possible. Here is what I think.

1. Forget about brands. When you settle on a make/model of vehicle, you are drastically limiting your options and, therefore, your chances of getting a great deal. Instead, rule out makes and models that are not acceptable. This part is important. There are certain makes that I would never consider. I would never buy a Pontiac. Or a Chrysler. Or a Cadillac. Or a few others that have reputations for problems when it comes to durability and maintenance. I tend to avoid German cars because they tend, in my opinion, to be overpriced, but this is not a hard and fast rule. It's just that $5,000 tends to go a lot further when you are buying Japanese than when you are buying Volkswagen. I now own a 2002 Toyota Tacoma pickup. I did not set out to buy a pickup, but it was, by far, the best vehicle available in my price range when I needed a car. I paid $4,500 from a private party, and Illinois has no sales tax in that situation. It had 82K on it as well as maintenance records. I've owned it for 18 months now and it has had zero problems--it's a typical Toyota that is going to last ten years or more (I don't drive much). I would never have found it if I had limited my options to particular make and model. I figured I was going to end up with an American made sedan. When you find what looks like a good deal on a car you haven't previously heard of or considered, research it. There are lots of online resources to determine whether it could fill the bill, but take review sites with a grain of salt. Everyone thinks that the car they just bought is fabulous, and those sites are also prone to phony reviews.

There are lots of great cars that weren't popular in the marketplace and so present good opportunities to get reliable transportation for not much money. American sedans tend to be in this arena. I'm also partial to Mercury Mystiques and their Ford cousin, the Contour. They are great cars, I think, but didn't sell well and so were discontinued after a few years. I also like gas hogs, particularly the Lincoln Town Car. There are lots of bargains on Town Cars. They are super comfy, built like tanks and no one wants them because they use gas. Well, you can buy a lot of gas with the money you'll save on a Town Car. I did the math once, and you have to drive a used Prius something like 100K miles before the savings in gas will even out the price for a Town Car. I prefer the comfort of a Town Car to the cachet of a Prius.

2. How did I find my Toyota? I did an eBay search of all used vehicles offered by private parties within 100 miles of me (more on dealerships in a bit). It turned up 300 or so vehicles, a manageable size. When I spotted the Toyota, which was about 60 miles away, I checked craigslist in his town and, sure enough, he had listed it there for $5,200 (it was on eBay for $4,600). Needless to say, I did not tell him that I'd seen the CL ad. Therein lies the CL phenomenon. I have never understood this, but people ask way, way more money for cars (and practically anything else) on CL than the vehicles are conceivably worth. This is apparent when you check dealership prices on CL for cars. The dealers always ask less. That should not be the case--you will, or should, always pay less for a given car if you buy it from a private party.

3. Dealerships do not sell cars. They sell money. Which is to say, the vehicles are only a vehicle, so to speak, to loan money and collect interest. I would never buy a vehicle from a dealership. For one thing, you have to pay tax. That isn't the case with a private party, and even if it is (states vary), you can usually convince the private party to knock down the price on the bill of sale presented to DMV so you pay tax on, say, $3,000 instead of $5,000. That's a big difference. For another thing, a dealer will never take a loss on a car. If a dealer did that, the dealer would go out of business. A private party will take a loss, you just have to find the right private party. If you find a car you like on CL, track it. Don't go out and look at it if the price isn't in your ballpark. Swoop in after it languishes for a couple-three weeks at a dramatically inflated price (and most CL prices are dramatically inflated). It is very hard for someone who's been advertising a car for $5,000 for three weeks to walk away from $3,000 in cash. And I always pay cash. I bring along $500 or so for a deposit, then write out a bill of sale for balance to be paid within 24 hours. Private parties are influenced by cash in a way that dealers are not. It will take you longer to find a car via private party, but your patience will be rewarded.

4. When you look at a car, you must always find something wrong with it, even if there is nothing wrong with it. In the case of my Toyota, there was nothing wrong with it that was not obvious--a scratch in the paint and the like. So I drew attention to the temperature gauge, frowned, and asked whether it usually took that long to get to the normal range. This will not work with every seller, but it did with this one, introducing a seed of doubt that played to my advantage in negotiating the price.

5. As others have said, quickly establish in your own mind how much you are willing to pay for a car (and this shouldn't take long if you've done your research) and don't go a penny over your limit. There are zillions of cars for sale at any given time, and perhaps 5 percent are great deals. That is still a lot of great deals. You just have to look.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ my only comment is in reference to conspiring with a private seller to represent the selling price as something other than the true selling price.

That's a crime! Not to mention the charge of conspiracy. The law matters and if you want to deal in some shadowy, 3rd world economy then be prepared to face the consequences if caught. 

Be a grown up and pay your taxes. It stinks, but it's the law.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

SG_67 said:


> ^ my only comment is in reference to conspiring with a private seller to represent the selling price as something other than the true selling price.
> 
> That's a crime! Not to mention the charge of conspiracy. The law matters and if you want to deal in some shadowy, 3rd world economy then be prepared to face the consequences if caught.
> 
> Be a grown up and pay your taxes. It stinks, but it's the law.


This is true. And, in fact, I recall a cop getting caught doing exactly that and getting in big trouble. That said, everybody does it, or at least did do it while I lived in a state where there was no income tax and so everything else got taxed to the hilt to make up for it. A lot of people wrote out bills of sale stating that vehicles were gifts. It was so pervasive that the state passed a law stating that you paid sales tax on a vehicle given as a gift, regardless of whether money changed hands.

I agree that people should pay their taxes. Especially rich people. Unfortunately, rich people have so many loopholes available that they often pay little or nothing. Take Bruce Rauner, the zillionaire who is running for governor of Illinois. He paid no Social Security or Medicare taxes in 2010 and 2011, when he had an adjusted gross income of $55 million. He had an AGI of more than $53 million between 2010 and 2012 and paid 19 percent in taxes, well below what I paid, and I make a lot less than he did. Of course, what Rauner did was perfectly legal and what poor folks in need of transportation do is not when they fib on bills of sale to avoid taxes. But which is the greater sin? It is hard to feel bad about dodging taxes illegally when rich people who buy the politicians who write the laws get a legal pass.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Not being able to take advantage of the same loopholes is not an excuse to break the law.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Consider a auto broker.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Hitch said:


> Consider a auto broker.


Rhymes with "thief."


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

32rollandrock said:


> Rhymes with "thief."


Actually they are quite popular out here in the sticks.

Rhymes with hicks.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Hitch said:


> Actually they are quite popular out here in the sticks.
> 
> Rhymes with hicks.


Explains a lot. My view is, no one works for free. A broker of anything--cars, real estate, cocaine--is going to take a cut. Unless a broker provides a 20,000-mile warranty, or something like that, I think you can do just as well on your own if you are patient, do your research and avoid making decisions based on emotions.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

32rollandrock said:


> Explains a lot. My view is, no one works for free. A broker of anything--cars, real estate, cocaine--is going to take a cut. Unless a broker provides a 20,000-mile warranty, or something like that, I think you can do just as well on your own if you are patient, do your research and avoid making decisions based on emotions.


True enough but if memory serves Gas opened announcing his distaste of car trading.

Then you did miss my Tyson reference on the music favorite thread yes?


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Hitch said:


> True enough but if memory serves Gas opened announcing his distaste of car trading.
> 
> Then you did miss my Tyson reference on the music favorite thread yes?


I didn't understand it and don't, frankly, care to understand it. If something goes over my head, it's over my head, so I shrug and move on. I don't come here to pick fights or play I'm smarter than you or otherwise do anything than, as the original statement says, pull up a club chair and engage in conversation and debate.

The OP stated his dislike for the car-lot scene and I can agree with him on that. Like the OP, I disdain car salesmen. There are, I think, just three things that you need to know about buying a car from a dealership: Salesmen work on commission, the higher the sale price the more they make and they are way, way better at negotiating than you are. Added together, that is reason to avoid a dealership when purchasing a car.

This does not mean that I don't enjoy hunting for vehicles. I do, and I have had a fair amount of success at it. In fact, my dad and I would sometimes go look at cars for fun on the off chance we could find something worth buying. We never did, but we came close a few times.

No one is invested in the purchase of a car as much as the purchaser, and so I, personally, would be loathe to contract with a broker thinking that that would somehow eliminate the chances of getting screwed. Near as I can tell, it does not.

As to the OP's question about KBB, in my opinion, KBB means absolutely nothing. At best, it is a starting point for figuring out the worth of a vehicle, although I think that the KBB becomes more relevant with newer vehicles. KBB is often used, I think, as part of a pitch by sellers to justify a price. Not good.

End of day, I think that there are ways for the OP to get a good deal on a car without setting foot on a dealership. If it were me, I would pursue those other options.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

32rollandrock said:


> I didn't understand it and don't, frankly, care to understand it. If something goes over my head, it's over my head, so I shrug and move on. I don't come here to pick fights or play I'm smarter than you or otherwise do anything than, as the original statement says, pull up a club chair and engage in conversation and debate.


 LOL And this has what to do with my post? I dont see any connection, but rave on by all means.


> The OP stated his dislike for the car-lot scene and I can agree with him on that. Like the OP, I disdain car salesmen. There are, I think, just three things that you need to know about buying a car from a dealership: Salesmen work on commission, the higher the sale price the more they make and they are way, way better at negotiating than you are. Added together, that is reason to avoid a dealership when purchasing a car.
> 
> This does not mean that I don't enjoy hunting for vehicles. I do, and I have had a fair amount of success at it. In fact, my dad and I would sometimes go look at cars for fun on the off chance we could find something worth buying. We never did, but we came close a few times.
> 
> ...


Good for you.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

If you can find a copy I suggest that you read "Confessions of a Used Car Salesman." The author describes the economics of car selling and the tactics of car sellers.

If you are looking for a used car I believe that the condition and milage of a particular vehicle are more important than the brand of car. On the other hand, if you are looking for a new car, the reputation of various brands can be helpful. I have found Consumer Reports to be useful in providing objective comparative information about new cars. 

You may have decided what brand and model you want, and what features you must have and what you don't want. In that case do your focussed research and keep looking until you find the cream puff you will keep for years. This, by the way, is usually my situation.

If you can do so, particularly if you are a credit union member, it would be very helpful to get pre-approved for a loan for the maximum amount you will pay. In any event, do not discuss financing or trade in value (if you plan to trade in your car) until after you have reached a firm price with the dealership.

Consumers's Union has a very good service that gives you the dealer's cost, mark ups, various put and takes by the manufacturer, and other factors that contribute to the lowest offer a dealer can afford to take. Past Consumer's Reports new car ratings can give you information about models in which you are interested. Consumer's Report also lists used cars with better than average and worse than average reliability records. They list cars to avoid.

There are publications that list the price ranges of used cars. I haven't used them for a while so I don't know which ones are in print, nor how well they might be regarded. 

Whether you are buying from an individual or a dealer it is imperative that you get a prospective purchase evaluated by a competent mechanic. If the seller is unwilling to have the car driven to a mechanic for inspection, walk away.

Considering your disinclination, which I share, to bargain, or spend a lot of time shopping you might consider buying a new car. It is a known quantity, you will have done the research on model and best price, and armed with that and a loan pre-approval you ought to be able to walk into a dealership, lay it all out and get a pretty good deal. 

Much of what I've described can be done on line. You can also check dealer inventories on line.

As to trying to save a few dollars by conniving with the seller to falsify the bill of sale, stop and think. If s/he is willing to cheat the government out of taxes, why wouldn't that person be willing to cheat you? 

I hope this is helpful.

Good luck,
Gurdon


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> He paid no Social Security or Medicare taxes in 2010 and 2011, when he had an adjusted gross income of $55 million.


You and I don't pay SS tax on investment income.

Why should he??


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

WouldaShoulda said:


> You and I don't pay SS tax on investment income.
> 
> Why should he??


I'm always amused at when people make money and follow the law when filing their taxes, only to be chastised for following the law.

I suppose the same logic that suggests having two parties lie regarding the sale price of an automobile to save on taxes would have us believe it's ok to cheat on our taxes because Bruce Rauner declares investment income on his federal returns. The billionaire hero of the left, Warren Buffet, does the same thing.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

SG_67 said:


> I'm always amused at when people make money and follow the law when filing their taxes, only to be chastised for following the law.
> 
> I suppose the same logic that suggests having two parties lie regarding the sale price of an automobile to save on taxes would have us believe it's ok to cheat on our taxes because Bruce Rauner declares investment income on his federal returns. The billionaire hero of the left, Warren Buffet, does the same thing.


I am well aware that neither Rauner nor your or I pay taxes on investment income. My point is, at some point, you should--ask Warren Buffett. The complete exemption of investment income from taxes is outrageous.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> I am well aware that neither Rauner nor your or I pay taxes on investment income. My point is, at some point, you should--ask Warren Buffett. The complete exemption of investment income from taxes is outrageous.


You mean SS payroll taxes??


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

32rollandrock said:


> I am well aware that neither Rauner nor your or I pay taxes on investment income. My point is, at some point, you should--ask Warren Buffett. The complete exemption of investment income from taxes is outrageous.


Then let's get the law changed. I'm sure you declare some measure of deductions on your taxes so should I state that you're taking advantage of the "home owners loophole"?

I don't begrudge Bruce Rauner, or anyone for that matter, for following the law when it comes to income taxes. By the way, 19% of 53 million is a hell of a large sum for one person to have to foot.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

I agree with SG's statements that there are a host of crimes and other issues associated with the tax fraud described above, and I disagree with the statement that "everyone does it."

To the original question - what are you looking for in a car? If it's just transportation then why not stick with your current car? 

Unfortunately, there's no general rule around the negotiating room that a dealer has for a particular car. It depends on the market for that particular car and the dealer's financial strategy.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

jeez. could we not let this thread degenerate into a political diatribe about the rich vs the poor? I just wanted advice on buying a used car


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

gaseousclay said:


> jeez. could we not let this thread degenerate into a political diatribe about the rich vs the poor? I just wanted advice on buying a used car


Hold on! Someone wants to interrupts this thread and talk about used cars??? :biggrin:


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

gaseousclay said:


> jeez. could we not let this thread degenerate into a political diatribe about the rich vs the poor? I just wanted advice on buying a used car


Fair enough.

The Cliff Notes version: It's a jungle out there. Don't buy from a dealership. Be flexible on make-model. Do lots of research. Pay cash.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> The Cliff Notes version: It's a jungle out there. Don't buy from a dealership. Be flexible on make-model. Do lots of research. Pay cash.


i'm not opposed to dealerships per se. My experience buying our CRV wasn't bad at all, I just wished it didn't take 2 hrs to get in and out of the dealership. The salesman was a stand up guy too, which makes all the difference. I've had people recommend carmax.com as a means to buy used without the hassles, but when I checked their site the cost savings didn't appear to amount to much if anything at all. plus, the nearest carmax location to me is in Madison, WI, which is too far for me. Either way, I definitely want a Honda Accord, and that is mainly because we've had no issues with our CRV and Hondas have a rock solid reputation.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

gaseousclay said:


> i'm not opposed to dealerships per se. My experience buying our CRV wasn't bad at all, I just wished it didn't take 2 hrs to get in and out of the dealership. The salesman was a stand up guy too, which makes all the difference. I've had people recommend carmax.com as a means to buy used without the hassles, but when I checked their site the cost savings didn't appear to amount to much if anything at all. plus, the nearest carmax location to me is in Madison, WI, which is too far for me. Either way, I definitely want a Honda Accord, and that is mainly because we've had no issues with our CRV and Hondas have a rock solid reputation.


I think that it is really hard to save money AND not spend a lot of time in the buying process. One question: If the salesman was such a stand-up guy, why did it take two hours? Any event, if you have your heart set on an Accord, then you will get an Accord. Hondas are fine cars. So are Toyotas. So, actually, are Fords, and you'll spend a lot less on a Ford than you will on a Toyota or a Honda because you are paying for that reputation. As others have said, I don't think that there are any hard and fast rules at dealerships other than they will try to get as much money out of you as possible, as will a private party. The difference is, professional car salesmen are better at extracting money from people than amateurs.

I think that you should just bite the bullet and expect to pay a premium, given that you have your heart set on a particular make and model and you don't want to spend a lot of time in the buying process.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> One question: If the salesman was such a stand-up guy, why did it take two hours?


it took 2 hrs because we first checked the lot to see what we liked. the salesman came out, introduced himself and let us test drive the CRV we selected. we then had to figure out the trade-in value for my car, plus we negotiated a discount on top of that. finally, the financing portion took awhile because I was going to go through my bank but they said their finance department could get me a lower APR rate on a loan through them, so that was hard to pass up. it was mainly about his attitude during the entire process - he was genuinely a nice guy and we didn't feel like he was pressuring us to do anything. I had the exact opposite experience from a local Subaru dealership -- the salesmen weren't very helpful and the tactic they used to get us to buy was telling us, "you better act fast because this Subaru Outback will be gone next week." It felt very passive aggressive and it was a real turn off. Needless to say, i'm glad we went to the Honda dealership instead.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I'd consider certified used from a dealer.

Many of these are coming off lease from one owner and are sold warranted and with a no dicker sticker. 

Take it or leave it.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'd consider certified used from a dealer.
> 
> Many of these are coming off lease from one owner and are sold warranted and with a no dicker sticker.
> 
> Take it or leave it.


CPO is a good choice, I actually traded a 2010 Subaru WRX STi that I bought in 2013 for a used CPO 2013 WRX STi just to get the extended warranty. The engine on those cars are really expensive and being a performance car I didn't want to take the chance. And I really think it all depends on the salesman who you talk to. Most are bums and few are great. My wife purchased a CPO Jag and the whole dealership was wonderful and we go back in just to say hi to the salesman. Their other dealers under the same umbrella are also similarly nice and easy to deal with. Of course, the sales price may have something to do with the level of service but job satisfaction and quality hiring makes a difference too. If you haven't looked at other cars check out Ford, Toyota and others to see if anything tickles your fancy. If not go back to the Honda dealer and see if they will work with you. I too hate the car buying process but if Harper's in Knoxville sold Subarus I would have gone back there and bought it from my wife's salesman, but alas they don't.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Still not clear to me why you're buying a new car. Perhaps I'm misinterpretting your posts, but it sounds like you are focused on reliability and cost. Why not bring your current vehicle into a trusted mechanic for a tune-up and ask what repairs are on the near horizon? If that car is running well, I suspect that continuing to drive it will be the most cost-effective option.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

pleasehelp said:


> Still not clear to me why you're buying a new car. Perhaps I'm misinterpretting your posts, but it sounds like you are focused on reliability and cost. Why not bring your current vehicle into a trusted mechanic for a tune-up and ask what repairs are on the near horizon? If that car is running well, I suspect that continuing to drive it will be the most cost-effective option.


I should've been more clear. my wife and I are separated. The car i'm driving now is hers, meaning the title is in her name. She's driving our Honda CRV because we have a baby, so for safety reasons it makes more sense for her to drive that car. Even though her car runs fine i'm thinking that if and when the time comes and it craps out on me i'm gonna need a vehicle of my own. I will continue to drive her car but in the meantime I'm researching vehicles. There's an auto mechanic buy our house that is 100% reliable whom we both trust. If I need repairs i'll go to him.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Consider, too, if you're a Costco member taking advantage of their vehicle purchase program. I've used it before during my search for a new car and it offers a convenient, no haggling option.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> Consider, too, if you're a Costco member taking advantage of their vehicle purchase program. I've used it before during my search for a new car and it offers a convenient, no haggling option.


I used USAA when purchasing my last new car.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

When we bought our 2000 Ford Mondeo in 2006, the idea was to run it into the ground. That day has now come, as I found out over the last 2 days on a long drive, well actually that day came about a year ago, I only scraped through the last vehicle test, but over a year ago my mechanic said, "James, don't spend any more money on fixing this car, it isn't worth it." 

So I am also now about to commence the arduous task of buying another secondhand car. The list of faults on the Mondeo is extensive and not worth fixing for a car that proved to be a money pit and what has at best been an average working car on a good day. I've now owned 2 Fords. I won't be owning a third. 
Ford has convinced me to return to my GM roots - I've owned a 79 Opel, which was a great little car, and I still own an 89 Vauxhall, which still goes like a Swiss clock & is great fun to drive, unlike either of the Fords I've had.


On my short list:
An Opel Astra estate - no older than 2010
An Opel Insignia estate - no newer than 2010


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> When we bought our 2000 Ford Mondeo in 2006, the idea was to run it into the ground. That day has now come, as I found out over the last 2 days on a long drive, well actually that day came about a year ago, I only scraped through the last vehicle test, but over a year ago my mechanic said, "James, don't spend any more money on fixing this car, it isn't worth it."
> 
> So I am also now about to commence the arduous task of buying another secondhand car. The list of faults on the Mondeo is extensive and not worth fixing for a car that proved to be a money pit and what has at best been an average working car on a good day. I've now owned 2 Fords. I won't be owning a third.
> Ford has convinced me to return to my GM roots - I've owned a 79 Opel, which was a great little car, and I still own an 89 Vauxhall, which still goes like a Swiss clock & is great fun to drive, unlike either of the Fords I've had.
> ...


There are some brands I would not buy, but Ford isn't on the list. There are lots of folks who have sworn off Fords or Chevy's or Dodge's, take your pick, because they owned one or two that were not good cars. I don't think that is sufficient reason to write off a manufacturer. I've owned Fords and Chevy's and Dodges (and a lot of others). Some were good, some were not so good. Best car I ever owned was a 1994 Ford Taurus. Bought it for $500, drove it 50,000 miles and sold it for $1,500, and I regret selling it. I still see it occasionally on the road. The Achilles heel of the Ford Taurus was the transmission, but if you drove it like the transmission was ready to fall out--i.e., no hard shifting--they were fine, at least mine was. Even then, if you knew someone who could install a transmission, Tauruses were steals--you could buy one with a bad transmission for a grand or less, plop in a tranny for $1,500 and you'd be good to go for 100k miles.

After the Ford, I had a 1993 Buick Century that wasn't half the car, even though it had just 46k miles on it when I got it. I don't think that Buicks are bad cars, I just happened to get a bad one, and that was my fault for not exercising usual caution when I bought it (among other things, it came with a front end problem I was never able to fix). My father has a 1994 Oldsmobile that just refuses to die--it's the same motor, same transmission and same chassis as my problematic Buick. He's at 150k miles with nary a problem.

Besides the Mondeo, what other Ford did you own?


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> Consider, too, if you're a Costco member taking advantage of their vehicle purchase program. I've used it before during my search for a new car and it offers a convenient, no haggling option.


A great point; we've used it on both a lease and an outright purchase.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

BTW~Best 13 year old car with 130k miles on it I've ever driven;


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

32rollandrock said:


> Besides the Mondeo, what other Ford did you own?


Both German Fords

2000 Mondeo is a 2 litre, straight 4, Ghia - reasonable engine once upon a time and good electrics compared to the Scorpio, but awful suspension, chasis and shocks, and terrible disc brakes and handbrake, and bad rust proofing.

My first German Ford was a 1992 Scorpio V6 2.9 litre estate - great engine, a kingly drive, a real land yacht, really comfortable but terrible electrics and terrible rust proofing, terrible brakes.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Both German Fords
> 
> 2000 Mondeo is a 2 litre, straight 4, Ghia - reasonable engine once upon a time and good electrics compared to the Scorpio, but awful suspension, chasis and shocks, and terrible disc brakes and handbrake, and bad rust proofing.
> 
> My first German Ford was a 1992 Scorpio V6 2.9 litre estate - great engine, a kingly drive, a real land yacht, really comfortable but terrible electrics and terrible rust proofing, terrible brakes.


Ah, that might be the difference. I have no experience with German-made Fords. You know those Germans. When will they ever make a decent car?


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

32rollandrock said:


> There are some brands I would not buy, but Ford isn't on the list. There are lots of folks who have sworn off Fords or Chevy's or Dodge's, take your pick, because they owned one or two that were not good cars. I don't think that is sufficient reason to write off a manufacturer. I've owned Fords and Chevy's and Dodges (and a lot of others). Some were good, some were not so good. Best car I ever owned was a 1994 Ford Taurus. Bought it for $500, drove it 50,000 miles and sold it for $1,500, and I regret selling it. I still see it occasionally on the road. The Achilles heel of the Ford Taurus was the transmission, but if you drove it like the transmission was ready to fall out--i.e., no hard shifting--they were fine, at least mine was. Even then, if you knew someone who could install a transmission, Tauruses were steals--you could buy one with a bad transmission for a grand or less, plop in a tranny for $1,500 and you'd be good to go for 100k miles.


My wife's Ford Focus has proven to be very reliable, but I have my heart set on a Honda. As for swearing off certain brands, I will never buy a VW again. Call it bad luck but my 2000 Passat was an absolute piece of crap and cost me more money than it was worth. After having gone through a number of recalls I decided it was time to get rid of it. So much for German engineering.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

gaseousclay said:


> My wife's Ford Focus has proven to be very reliable, but I have my heart set on a Honda. As for swearing off certain brands, I will never buy a VW again. Call it bad luck but my 2000 Passat was an absolute piece of crap and cost me more money than it was worth. After having gone through a number of recalls I decided it was time to get rid of it. So much for German engineering.


Would you walk past a perfectly fine Toyota Camry at a great price on your way across the lot to look at a Honda at a not-so-great price? That's hypothetical, of course. My disdain for dealerships has been made clear.

The only VW I have ever owned was a '73 Super Beetle and it was only OK--it had too many miles on it by the time it fell into my hands. I do think that VW's are overpriced. I look at cars on CL more than I should, even when I have no intention of buying a car, and am always struck by how much VWs cost compared with comparable Japanese models. I don't understand the cachet. I'm a big fan of the Focus. I think they are dandy cars that hold up well, although they have zero sex appeal. I am a devoted Honda fan when it comes to motorcycles. I would own no other brand. I care a lot more about my bike than I do about anything with four wheels.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Checked out Volvo? My 2002 S60 is at 131K and hasn't had a single large problem yet. Small things, sure, but all cars have minor issues. Maintenance is expensive, however.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Pentheos said:


> Checked out Volvo? My 2002 S60 is at 131K and hasn't had a single large problem yet. Small things, sure, but all cars have minor issues. Maintenance is expensive, however.


Volvos are fantastic, until they reach a certain point. Then they become money pits. As you say, maintenance is expensive, both parts and labor. I always laugh whenever someone says a Volvo--or any car--lasts forever, is bulletproof, etc. If that was true, no one would ever sell a Volvo. I can't count the number of people I know who bought used, worn-out Volvos thinking they had entered automotive nirvana. Without exception, they deeply regretted the purchase sooner rather than later.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

Sounds like this is a pretty easy decision for you if you have already determined that you will buy a used Honda. I woudl suggest getting a background report (e.g., Carfax) and having a mechanic check it out before you buy it. Good luck.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

My Prius (a 2006) just rolled over 180k without a single issue. Can't beat that. And, I paid <$6k for it 70k and three years ago. Craigslist!


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