# RIP Ian Smith



## Murrah (Mar 28, 2005)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/21/db2101.xml


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Smith was a product of british colonialism no less than tea from India or beaver pelts from Canada. In the 1970s I bought a rather unusual saddle from Rodesia. A army unit called the Grey's Scouts would go on long horseback patrols. They tried every known saddle and all failed under the difficult conditions. A saddler took an old US McClelland, made some modicifations and used cape buffalo hide to produce the ugliest and toughest saddle ever made. I owned one. I answered a tiny ad in Western Horseman and received a 2 page brochure. A texas cattleman had invested in a operation in Rodesia and found himself unable to take any profits out except through secondary exporting of goods. So I bought a Grey's Scout saddle. That rancher was later forced out at point of AK 47 for 'war veteran' compensation under the current regime. His last communication with his black crew was that the cattle had all been slaughtered for food,including the blood stock breeding bulls, buildings falling in disrepair and 3 killings on the place. My liberal peers made so many negative PC comments I stopped riding my Grey's saddle. Years later I met a veteran of that organisation now living in southern Arizona. I sold it to him as he almost cried seeing it. I wonder how he makes out, dodging narcotico trafficantes and other heroes of the reconquista.


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*Rhodesia/Zimbabwe*

As so ofter happened in post-colonial Africa, a repressive regime was replaced by something far, far worse.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

agnash said:


> As so ofter happened in post-colonial Africa, a repressive regime was replaced by something far, far worse.


+1...why you really can't celebrate Smith. Mugabe was a direct result.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

JRR said:


> +1...why you really can't celebrate Smith. Mugabe was a direct result.


I'm quoting something I wrote in another post about Rhodesia:

_A few thoughts about Zimbabwe: since 1990, the life expectancy for males has declined from age 60 to age 37, which is the lowest in the world; for females it's 34. In 2006, unemployment was 80% and inflation was 15,000%. Currently, there are just under 6 million HIV cases in Zimbabwe (33% of the ages 18-49 are HIV positive). The next national election is scheduled for 2008, but President Mugabe is expected to change the constitution (again) to keep his office until 2010, at least.

Clearly, the situation in Zimbabwe is so bad it borders on the unbelievable, arguably much worse than it was before independence, although one needs to be wary of the post hoc ergo propter hoc(after this, therefore because of this) reasoning. Strong cases have been made that colonialism itself is at least partly responsible for the inability of new nations to govern themselves. If it hasn't been said before, I'll say it: democracy is less a political system than a growth process, and a people who have, for generations, been treated as children under a patronizing rule have not yet grown into the skills necessary to take over a nation. Zimbabwe is probably one of the worst examples of this, but, in recent years, nearly equaled by Uganda, Rwanda, Mozambique, etc.

Is it better in Zimbabwe than it was in Rhodesia? On the surface, it would seem not, but to quote Ghandi, "As every country is fit to eat, to drink and to breathe, even so is every nation fit to manage its own affairs, no matter how badly. "
__________________
_


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I was in South and East Africa in the 70's and in those days the two most pleasant economies were Rhodesia and Malawi (and Botswana but then as hardly anyone lived there it does not count). The socialist economies of Kenya, Tanzania and Zambia were failing and corrupt, something I think that has changed little since. Mozambique was at war. South Africa was apartheid. 

Malawi was under Hastings Banda at that time, a bit of a despot but unlike the socialist states I saw no malnourished people.

Rhodesia exhibited the benefits of a strong economy, lack of corruption, good hospitals and roads etc. The social interaction between the races was normal unlike South Africa. What followed is a disaster; a fine country with all the natural assets one could wish for dragged into the gutter by violence, bigotry, corruption and what despotism becomes when the man at the top goes bad.

I am afraid rip I do not accept your argument about post colonial governments. Many such as those of South East Asia, the Indian subcontinent, Australasia and North America have become strong economies, well governed with responsible legal systems. I may be out of line but there seems to be a problem on the continent of Africa. From tip to toe over the last 50 years good government has been driven out by bad, sometimes this has been due to international power politics of USA, Russia, China etc and sometimes it is self destruction as Nigeria.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

culverwood said:


> I was in South and East Africa in the 70's and in those days the two most pleasant economies were Rhodesia and Malawi (and Botswana but then as hardly anyone lived there it does not count). The socialist economies of Kenya, Tanzania and Zambia were failing and corrupt, something I think that has changed little since. Mozambique was at war. South Africa was apartheid.
> 
> Malawi was under Hastings Banda at that time, a bit of a despot but unlike the socialist states I saw no malnourished people.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I should have been more precise and indicate that I was speaking about Africa. I didn't think it necessary since the thread was about Rhodesia and the examples given were all African. As far as "social interaction between the races" being "normal" in Rhodesia, they were about as normal as can be between master and man, and in my world, that can never be considered "normal".


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

So, *rip*, just how much time have you spent in Africa working, and actually working with black Africans?

M8


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> So, *rip*, just how much time have you spent in Africa working, and actually working with black Africans?
> 
> M8


There are some human equations that have nothing to do with place, and racial suppression is chief among them. I realize, from past experience with you, that this concept is beyond your comprehension, but try to grasp it.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

RIP, forgive me, but Oprah Winfrey is never going to send anyone on this forum an invitation to her parties.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Kav said:


> RIP, forgive me, but Oprah Winfrey is never going to send anyone on this forum an invitation to her parties.


You know this for sure? I'm heartbroken. I had put all my hopes on one shot on her show. Damn! You just totally ruined my Thanksgiving mood, Kav.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

rip said:


> There are some human equations that have nothing to do with place, and racial suppression is chief among them. I realize, from past experience with you, that this concept is beyond your comprehension, but try to grasp it.


I thought so *rip*, more phony nonsense coming out of you, none of which is based on any personal experience. You are simply acting as a mouthpiece.

M8


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> I thought so *rip*, more phony nonsense coming out of you, none of which is based on any personal experience. You are simply acting as a mouthpiece.
> 
> M8


And when were you in Africa, working with black Africans? Before or after your time at West Point? Or was this during your time as an astronaut? BTW, you have no idea what my personal experience has been, I have no need to trot it out upon command. Those who know me know that I speak from a position of knowledge and understanding; my comment was based on knowable human equations, but as I said, you are unable to comprehend things on that level, hence your responses, which have been used by racists for hundreds of years to justify their most egregious acts. By such, you place yourself clearly in the midst of them.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

You are not going to like this rip but based on my experience in Africa racism cuts both ways. Blacks can be just as racist as whites. There are racists of every colour and hue and there is no excuse for any of them. 

Social interaction normal in Rhodesia then? Maybe not completely but certainly on a completely different planet to South Africa under apartheid.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

rip said:


> And when were you in Africa, working with black Africans? Before or after your time at West Point? Or was this during your time as an astronaut? BTW, you have no idea what my personal experience has been, I have no need to trot it out upon command. Those who know me know that I speak from a position of knowledge and understanding; my comment was based on knowable human equations, but as I said, you are unable to comprehend things on that level, hence your responses, which have been used by racists for hundreds of years to justify their most egregious acts. By such, you place yourself clearly in the midst of them.


Astronaut? LMAO! :icon_smile_big: What about movie star?

..._knowable human equations_...? We could have fun with that concept on this thread forever. You obviously are a concept-man and not a real doer.

Africa: Let's see this year alone I spent 7 months in Angola, working side-by-side with Angolans - I just got back last Sunday. Last year about the same amount of time. I've done similar in other years with Nigeria, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, Congo, DR Congo, the list goes on and on. Other parts of the world too, like Latin America and SE Asia.

Now that your assertions here seem to be losing ground you choose to invoke fraud on my part as your only defense. Such are those when they lose ground in their arguments. Oh yes, _...knowable human equations...ROTFLMAO! :icon_smile_big:
_
M8


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

The local press here in Botswana, a country where people avoid confrontation and criticism, Smith was lambasted without pity when he died. The country was hit pretty hard during the war, though less than other neighbors that gave sanctuary to the 'boys.' 

Ian Smith was the voice people heard outside of Rhodesians during the war. In recent years I have read several articles by Black Africans noting that while they were on the other side they still retained a respect for the man's fortitude, and adjustments he had made since majority rule. 

In the first years after majority rule things looked fairly rosey in Zimbabwe but soon began to deteriorate, particularly with the one-sided conflict in the mid-80s where Mugabe eradicated the ZAPU opposition. Since then things have just gotten worse.

It's hard to use Rhodesia/Zimbabwe as a study for the rest of Africa. It had too many peculiarities to it to compare. 

Over the years nearly thirty years that I have been working, off and on, in Sub-Saharan Africa, I have seen some of the solid models wither: Kenya, Cameroon, Cote D'Ívoire, Malawi. I can think of two countries that are noticeably better off since 1980: Botswana and Mozambique. The former has benefited greatly from the discovery of great mineral resources and a small population, and a leadership that has made wise decisions since independence. Mozambique is benefiting from it's natural wealth and great management in the private sector coming across the border from RSA. It too has enjoyed good leadership at the highest level. The jury is out on Ethiopia. I give them special consideration given the profundity of problems that the current government inherited.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

xcubbies said:


> The local press here in Botswana, a country where people avoid confrontation and criticism, Smith was lambasted without pity when he died. The country was hit pretty hard during the war, though less than other neighbors that gave sanctuary to the 'boys.'
> 
> Ian Smith was the voice people heard outside of Rhodesians during the war. In recent years I have read several articles by Black Africans noting that while they were on the other side they still retained a respect for the man's fortitude, and adjustments he had made since majority rule.
> 
> ...


Good post. Moçabique has indeed made strides, unlike its former sister colony Angola. I would add Namibia to your list of countries that have done okay post-colonial and/or post-war. Windhoek appears to be out of some European fairy tale.

Sad about Abdijan 

M8


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Martinis,
Thought about adding Namibia, but SWAPO is undergoing some problems and things could unravel quickly. I recently drove from Katima Mulilo to Windhoek and was duly impressed by the state of the country. It is amazing, still.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I was last in Zimbabwe only a couple of years ago and from what I saw then it was still an economy that while not at its peak was at least a functioning economy with petrol, shops full of food and other necessities and a farming and tourist sector. The fall into chaos (if one is to beleive what one reads in the papers or sees in the news) has been precipitous.

I found Botswana in the 70's to be like Malawi, both countries with few resources then but with people who did their best with what was there. They seem to have gone in opposite directions over the last 25 years. 

Mozambique has so far been a magnificent turn around and when they had the floods a few years ago I was pleased to give to the appeal with the reasonable expectation that the money raised would be used to good effect not syphoned off to a Swiss bank account. 

Most of my time in Africa has been in South Africa pre and post apartheid and from what I have seen it is still a country moving forward rather than backwards.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

culverwood said:


> You are not going to like this rip but based on my experience in Africa racism cuts both ways. Blacks can be just as racist as whites. There are racists of every colour and hue and there is no excuse for any of them.
> 
> Social interaction normal in Rhodesia then? Maybe not completely but certainly on a completely different planet to South Africa under apartheid.


There's no question about that, and one is as wrong as the other. BTW, there's nothing in my postings that would lead you to believe that I wouldn't like what you said, or that I was not aware of there being black racism in Africa (and many other places on the planet). To assume that is a knee-jerk reaction based on no information in my posts. However, in Rhodesia under Ian Smith, the topic of this thread, as well as in S. Africa under their system of apartheid, , there was the suppression and oppression of one group of people by another because of their color. My point: that's wrong... end of story.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

rip said:


> ...there was the suppression and oppression of one group of people by another because of their color. My point: that's wrong... end of story.


Don't be so sure color was the sole motivator in either system. Dig a little deeper, you may find something else...


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Culverwood

I don't present myself as an authority on RSA, I've just recently begun travelling there. The infrastructure is amazing and things still do work. Crime is the main issue. It is widespread and brutal. Most of my colleagues there have had home invasions, though none have been wantonly shot down. But it is frightening and it is spreading from Gauteng to other parts of the country most clearly. The police response is improving but there hasn't been a significant change in the levels. 

The big issues on the horizon are the ANC succession and the 2010 World Cup. The big fear with the latter is that the crime will continue and no one will come. It's not impossible and it would be a great blow to the economy and the prestige of the country. As for the ANC, it would be nice if politics moved on from the apartheid era and candidates ran on positive platforms. The ANC hasn't made much inroads in improving housing conditions or the overall inequity that exists. Of course, this doesn't happen overnight, but some of the ANC leadership can be pigheaded and retrograde, to whit their approach on HIV. Still, as I said, the highways are packed with late model cars, beautiful new retirement communities and golf courses are everywhere, tourism is booming and the press is free. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

RIP, from other threads I've seen I note that you can be bumptious. Take care.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

xcubbies said:


> Culverwood
> 
> I don't present myself as an authority on RSA, I've just recently begun travelling there. The infrastructure is amazing and things still do work. Crime is the main issue. It is widespread and brutal. Most of my colleagues there have had home invasions, though none have been wantonly shot down. But it is frightening and it is spreading from Gauteng to other parts of the country most clearly. The police response is improving but there hasn't been a significant change in the levels.
> 
> ...


This is well said. The crime is on the rise, and the RSA citizens that I work with throughout the continent say that White flight is happening in J'Burg and even a mild White-flight exodus from the country. Plus there are non-substantive initiatives like the renaming of Pretoria, new Che Guevara boulevards, etc. Many are expecting a cultural and economic backslide as the ANC evolves into an MPLA (Angola) type political party and kleptocracy. The world ignores this, as they ignored Mugabe, while wrong-headedly thinking that the Whites are getting their comeuppance. The Blacks will suffer in this as well. The looting has begun.

M8


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> This is well said. The crime is on the rise, and the RSA citizens that I work with throughout the continent say that White flight is happening in J'Burg and even a mild White-flight exodus from the country. Plus there are non-substantive initiatives like the renaming of Pretoria, new Che Guevara boulevards, etc. Many are expecting a cultural and economic backslide as the ANC evolves into an MPLA (Angola) type political party and kleptocracy. The world ignores this, as they ignored Mugabe, while wrong-headedly thinking that the Whites are getting their comeuppance. The Blacks will suffer in this as well. The looting has begun.
> 
> M8


Let's see... last time around, you were a West Point graduate; this time you're a sub-saharan policy wonk, pleading the case of the poor downtrodden whites. I shudder to think where your imagination will take you next; former president of Freedonia, perhaps?


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

rip said:


> Let's see... last time around, you were a West Point graduate; this time you're a sub-saharan policy wonk, pleading the case of the poor downtrodden whites. I shudder to think where your imagination will take you next; former president of Freedonia, perhaps?


You left off astronaut and movie star. Policy wonk? Puuhhhhleeeeze! That would imply I work for or with some gooberment organization. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm an independent businessman.

If you'd read some of the posts around here, other than the ones you troll around on, or where you feign ownership of $20k+ watches, you would already know some of my background and what it is I do for a living.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I am fatiqued with the disingenuous quote by Ghandi that everybody should be allowed to fail on their own. I would point out the success of Ghandi was as much the very real threat of the Indian Land Army and a post war UK facing multiple conflicts as harvesting salt. And when they do fail the pointing of Kalashnikovs is followed by fingers at the former colonial powers and America for not interceding as in Rwanda. Standing on principle without compromise is a good thing, provided one has firm ground to stand on also. The problems of Africa and the world at large will not be solved by exchanging one injustice for even greater injustices on ever shakier grounds. By this line of thinking Rodney King's problems are all Robert E. Lee's fault.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Kav said:


> I am fatiqued with the disingenuous quote by Ghandi that everybody should be allowed to fail on their own. I would point out the success of Ghandi was as much the very real threat of the Indian Land Army and a post war UK facing multiple conflicts as harvesting salt. And when they do fail the pointing of Kalashnikovs is followed by fingers at the former colonial powers and America for not interceding as in Rwanda. Standing on principle without compromise is a good thing, provided one has firm ground to stand on also. The problems of Africa and the world at large will not be solved by exchanging one injustice for even greater injustices on ever shakier grounds. By this line of thinking Rodney King's problems are all Robert E. Lee's fault.


Bravo! Well said.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> You left off astronaut and movie star. Policy wonk? Puuhhhhleeeeze! That would imply I work for or with some gooberment organization. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm an independent businessman.
> 
> If you'd read some of the posts around here, other than the ones you troll around on, or where you feign ownership of $20k+ watches, you would already know some of my background and what it is I do for a living.


I will attribute it to English not being your first language, but you confuse "feign" (I'm surprised you could spell that) with "wish-for", or perhaps it's just your inability to read and comprehend irrespective of language. Sorry I left off your other imagined roles. But given them, one has to assume that "independent businessman" is yet another one.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

rip said:


> I will attribute it to English not being your first language, but you confuse "feign" (I'm surprised you could spell that) with "wish-for", or perhaps it's just your inability to read and comprehend irrespective of language. Sorry I left off your other imagined roles. But given them, one has to assume that "independent businessman" is yet another one.


*rip* you need to get a dictionary out. Looking at _The American Heritage Dictionary_: *feign* - to represent falsely (i.e., your watch ownership).

Since you wish to continue in this vein, let's have the mods intervene at this point.

M8


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

GENTLEMEN ... and I use the term as loosely as the morals of a hooker:

*THIS* is the *kitchen*. Moderators are stationed in both the Traditional and Fashion Living Rooms, the Women's Salon, the Dining Room, the Dressing Room, and even the center of grooming ... the Bathroom.

There are no Moderators stationed in the Kitchen. None. Zero. Zip.

You can choose to play nicely here in The Kitchen. Or not.

However, if you choose to play in The Kitchen and can't stand the heat ... then you are just going to get burned.

We have no intention of coming in here and rescuing you because, frankly, we don't play here and therefore don't give a rat's ...

*BTW*
You should know that the vBulletin options for Interchange Moderators are limited. Our sole choices are

1] Inaction:

That's what I did above.

*or*

2] Infraction

When we infract in the Interchange it gives an infraction to every member who wrote anything on the page containing the Reported Post.

Would anyone else like to report a post? :icon_smile:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

*P.S.: STOP!!!*

*BACK AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD!!!*​
The same thing occurs when you PM a Moderator about the Interchange!

:devil:​


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Okay I get it. Thanks for the clarification. Anything goes in The Interchange, and no PM and no post alerts allowed. Actually that's great news. So I take it this means that we can flame on each other in any manner we please. Am I reading you correctly? New policy?

If so, I am ready to roll! :devil:

*rip*, draw!


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

The Rules still apply. We trust you will all abide by them and play like decent fellows without a chaperone.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Seems I was misunderstood.

PM to your heart's content. Report Interchange posts to your heart's content.

However, we shall take that as a 911 call to the Mod Squad. And we shall swoop down like S.W.A.T. upon the scoflaws, enforcing each and every rule to the utmost degree ... and beyond. By the time we're done there won't be an infractionless member in the lot. Heck - we'll probably have to infract each other for overzealous rule enforcement!

BTW, were you arguing with a moderator? Or did I misinterpret just a bit? Beware that modern political correctness would have judges not only interpreting the rules, but legislating from the keyboard as well.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Okay, I get it. *Be adult*.

M8


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> *rip* you need to get a dictionary out. Looking at _The American Heritage Dictionary_: *feign* - to represent falsely (i.e., your watch ownership).
> 
> Since you wish to continue in this vein, let's have the mods intervene at this point.
> 
> M8


That's exactly what I meant. I, however, didn't need to go to a dictionary to look it up; I knew the meaning already. I stand by my statement that you confused that word with "wish". At no time in any post have I presented myself as owning watches of that quality, only in wishing for them. However, you have, in a previous thread, presented yourself as a West Point Graduate, the accuracy of which is, at best, questionable. Also, I don't need the Mods to intervene on my behalf; as any gentleman would, I fight my own battles. Now, at this point, since you bore me interminably and since you have nothing of value or interest to say, I'm putting you on my ignore list. Bye-bye.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I didn't graduate West Point. I was third from the bottom of my 8 week boot camp company of 38 new apprentice seamen ( my CPO reminded all of us we started out with 112 recruits.) I do know when somebody announces they are through with an argument and placing the other party on ignore it's a retreat lacking only the pathos of Napolean's, well, his destroyed army's retreat from Moscow.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

rip said:


> That's exactly what I meant. I, however, didn't need to go to a dictionary to look it up; I knew the meaning already. I stand by my statement that you confused that word with "wish". At no time in any post have I presented myself as owning watches of that quality, only in wishing for them. However, you have, in a previous thread, presented yourself as a West Point Graduate, the accuracy of which is, at best, questionable. Also, I don't need the Mods to intervene on my behalf; as any gentleman would, I fight my own battles. Now, at this point, since you bore me interminably and since you have nothing of value or interest to say, I'm putting you on my ignore list. Bye-bye.


Hooray! I'm on his ignore list. LMAO! :icon_smile_big: Now if he could just go away for good.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Kav said:


> I didn't graduate West Point. I was third from the bottom of my 8 week boot camp company of 38 new apprentice seamen ( my CPO reminded all of us we started out with 112 recruits.) I do know when somebody announces they are through with an argument and placing the other party on ignore it's a retreat lacking only the pathos of Napolean's, well, his destroyed army's retreat from Moscow.


Actually the US Army Ranger School, which is only eight weeks long, was much more difficult than anything West Point could throw at anyone over the course of the four years one spends there.

So you were 35th out of 112? That's pretty damned good!

M8

P.S. I can still see *rip*'s messages :icon_smile_big:


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