# Connock and Lockie, Sims and MacDonald



## mathewr (Nov 16, 2006)

Anyone know anything about these two tailors on Lambs Conduit Street (near Russell Square/Grays Inn)? I can't find anything written about them on AAAC. I live nearby so dropped in to see them yesterday.

Sims and MacDonald - do a bespoke suit starting at £850. Not sure if the canvas is hand/machine sewn etc.

Connock and Lockie - spoke to them for longer. They do a bespoke suit starting at £1100, fully canvased and hand sewn. They don't do MTM as they don't want to put thier name to anything that is not "quality".

Anyway, I'll soon be looking for a suit and both these tailors impressed me, so any info will be helpful!


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

I am also interested to learn about these tailors. Lambs Conduit Street (what is a Lamb's conduit???) is on the edge of Bloomsbury and is a wonderful street with lots of great little shops and restaurants. Worth a detour if you are in the area - it's not on the tourist trail at all. I have found it quite strange that there are two tailor's shops within a block of each other on this street.

Thanks the sharing the information you learned from visiting them.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*Lambs Conduit Street*

Lambs Conduit Street dates back to the time of Henry VIII and is named after Mr. W. Lamb, who, at his own expense, drew several springs into a conduit in this street. This wonderful little street leads from the entrance to the Foundling Hospital into Red Lion Street, High Holborn. It's indeed worth a visit.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Amazing - not only an ability to produce links to any subject that has been discussed here, but also an encyclopaedic knowledge of the history and geography of London.


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## mathewr (Nov 16, 2006)

Thats right. The spring also ran down to Blackfiars (see the sign above the old dairy on Rugby st). Also, you can see the remains of the original well next to one of the shops.


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## SimonC (Nov 15, 2006)

There's also another bespoke tailor in the area, C Antoniou - he has a shopfront on Greys Inn Road just up from the junction with Calthorpe Street - number 248. I've never been in, so I'd be interested in your impressions if you get a chance.


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## mathewr (Nov 16, 2006)

Yes, I know the one. I'll go and check it out.


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## mathewr (Nov 16, 2006)

I went to see C Antoniou today as its just around the corner from my house. I must admit, he really impressed me with his work. All hand stitched, 2-3 fittings and completely canvassed. 2 pce going for £700 and trousers for £150.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

*Connock and Lockie*



mathewr said:


> Connock and Lockie


There is an example on the New Dandy thread :

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=57442

Trimmer


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## jadren0s (Mar 2, 2007)

Did you ever get a suit done at Christos Antoniou's? I live quite near the shop, and have always been interested. Certainly, the outfits in the window seem very well made.


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## JayBee66 (Jun 9, 2007)

I couldn't find a decent pair of linen trousers off the peg. After noticing Connock and Lockie near my office (they used to be in Sicilian Street) I dropped in and decided to order my first bespoke tailoring.

Lovely pair of trousers. Initial measuring up. Then called to a fitting. Then collection. About £250.

I was impressed with the photographs on the walls of previous customers. JFK being one of them.

James.


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## Winot (Oct 12, 2006)

I popped in yesterday lunchtime to have them sponge and press some trousers and ending up being measured for a bespoke shirt (£145 for a beautiful blue striped sea island cotton). Lovely chaps and fantastic "working" interior with cutting benches and paper patterns hanging all around. They told me that they have a good relationship with Sims & Macdonald over the road - "we send them the customers that are looking for a lower priced suit and they send us the awkward squad" - or words to that effect.

Particularly good subtle marketing - commenting astutely on ways in which my (Graham Browne) suit could be improved whilst still complimenting me on it.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

*Recommended*

Sorry to be late but have only just found this. I have a suit from C & L and I am delighted with it. It fits beautifully and is flatteringly cut so that it looks relaxed without losing its aura of being smart. The lining (a small point I know, but you do see it a lot) is a work of art with a white piping round a navy interior. I suspect this is two linings put together and it must be complicated because two cheaper tailors have flatly refused to copy it.

Most importantly of all I had a friend, who was a bespoke tailor and is now semi-retired and doing alterations only, have a look at it to put in a new hanging loop (the breaking of which is my only complaint) and he said he had never seen such careful hand canvassing.

As soon as I can get the money together I am on my way back...


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## clothesboy (Sep 19, 2004)

medwards said:


> Lambs Conduit Street dates back to the time of Henry VIII and is named after Mr. W. Lamb, who, at his own expense, drew several springs into a conduit in this street. This wonderful little street leads from the entrance to the Foundling Hospital into Red Lion Street, High Holborn. It's indeed worth a visit.





Trilby said:


> Amazing - not only an ability to produce links to any subject that has been discussed here, but also an encyclopaedic knowledge of the history and geography of London.


Does the nsa know about you or are you the AI behind the spying program?

Medwards scares me. Am I the only one?


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

clothesboy said:


> Does the nsa know about you or are you the AI behind the spying program?
> 
> Medwards scares me. Am I the only one?


Do not fear medwards, for he is a benevolent medwards...


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## Winot (Oct 12, 2006)

I'm sorry to have to pass on the sad news that Timothy Craig (the son of William Craig) has recently died after suffering an unexpected heart attack. William has taken back ownership of the shop and is rallying round his contacts in the trade to help him out (he also has a Japanese assistant). He is however very busy. As he is in his 70s I hope he can find someone to take on the business.


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## couch (Mar 8, 2005)

Are the messrs. Craig at Connock and Lockie or another firm?


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## Winot (Oct 12, 2006)

couch said:


> Are the messrs. Craig at Connock and Lockie or another firm?


I'm sorry that wasn't clear was it - Connock & Lockie.


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## couch (Mar 8, 2005)

Thanks, Winot.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Sims & MacDonald are mentioned in the Tatler this month as the tailor that young Sloanes and aristos go to.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

*Websites and examples*

Hello,
Sims and Macdonald have now launched their own website. It's pretty basic and I'm not sure it's entirely accurate (they told me that they no longer made shirts or offered made-to-measure but the website says otherwise). Worth a look anyway, though.

www.simsmacdonald.com

Also there are 2 examples of their suits currently on sale on eBay if anyone is interested (more in terms of the quality of the work than anything else).

Connock and Lockie also have a website in production at

www.connockandlockie.com

It is printed on their business cards but I presume the recent tragedy has slowed everything down.

Hope this helps,
Chris.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

I visited Lambs Conduit Street a few weeks ago. The owner of Connock & Lockie and his assistant were very busy making patterns and cutting cloth. By contrast, Sims & McDonald was very quiet. C&L quote £1100 for a two piece suit compared to £800 for S&M.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> I visited Lambs Conduit Street a few weeks ago. The owner of Connock & Lockie and his assistant were very busy making patterns and cutting cloth. By contrast, Sims & McDonald was very quiet. C&L quote £1100 for a two piece suit compared to £800 for S&M.


Hello,
I work very near by and tend to walk down the street a few times a week during my lunch hour. More often than not there are customers being measured in both shops during that period and I have seen plenty of pattern cutting being done in both premises. They both seem to be doing reasonably well which is great. I know C&L has the more "prestigious" reputation but the cluttered look of the shop and the way that the suits are displayed in the window (very poorly- the dummies aren't long enough and so the suits are crumpled) seems at odds with this. I have found the staff in both shops to be very pleasant.

Chris.


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

chrstc said:


> Also there are 2 examples of their suits currently on sale on eBay if anyone is interested (more in terms of the quality of the work than anything else).


Very nice, the double breasted especially.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

outrigger said:


> Very nice, the double breasted especially.


Hello,
Yes DB suits seem to be something of a house speciality for both Sims and C&L. I was going to abbreviate Sims and Macdonald as I have done Connock and Lockie but I thought the mods might not appreciate that!

Chris.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

chrstc said:


> I was going to abbreviate Sims and Macdonald as I have done Connock and Lockie but I thought the mods might not appreciate that!


If we're fine with T&A why not with the English Vice?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

RJman said:


> If we're fine with T&A why not with the English Vice?


I thought the English vice was, um, something else.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

manton said:


> I thought the English vice was, um, something else.


The English may have many vices, but I actually now tried looking it up on onelook.com and found it defined as corporal punishment (caning). Perhaps someone joking around? Perhaps we should ask in the English forum.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

I am very curious about these 3 establishments. If they really do floating canvas and can produce quality work, I just don't understand how they can do it for those prices with premises in central London. I assume they farm out some of the tailoring work, like most on the Row, but it's difficult to imagine that they can still make economic sense by having UK based contractors. Would anyone know how they make ends meet???? I am dying to know! I must pop round to their shops next time I am back in London.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

RJman said:


> If we're fine with T&A why not with the English Vice?


Lol! Good point. I had completely overlooked that actually!



misterdonuts said:


> I am very curious about these 3 establishments. If they really do floating canvas and can produce quality work, I just don't understand how they can do it for those prices with premises in central London. I assume they farm out some of the tailoring work, like most on the Row, but it's difficult to imagine that they can still make economic sense by having UK based contractors. Would anyone know how they make ends meet???? I am dying to know! I must pop round to their shops next time I am back in London.


Hello,
Both firms told me that their suits are completely made on the premises in their workshops below the shops. Sims and Macdonald in particular made a point of telling me that if work was done elsewhere it wouldn't count as "true bespoke" in their eyes. Again I can only pass on the information that I was given. I have no "insider knowledge" of either firm.

Bloomsbury rents are certainly very high but I don't think they have quite reached the stratospheric levels of Mayfair and St. James yet. Most of Lambs Conduit Street consists of small independent shops and they would be driven out just as quickly as the tailors if rents were that high I think. Unfortunately there is a Starbucks at the bottom of the road now, though, so how long it will remain in its present state is open to debate.

Hope this helps,
Chris.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

chrstc said:


> I was going to abbreviate Sims and Macdonald as I have done Connock and Lockie but I thought the mods might not appreciate that!
> 
> Chris.


I posted that abbreviation earlier and it seems that you missed it.


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

misterdonuts said:


> I am very curious about these 3 establishments. If they really do floating canvas and can produce quality work, I just don't understand how they can do it for those prices with premises in central London. I assume they farm out some of the tailoring work, like most on the Row, but it's difficult to imagine that they can still make economic sense by having UK based contractors. Would anyone know how they make ends meet???? I am dying to know! I must pop round to their shops next time I am back in London.


Apart from the lower rents, they probably don't go on regular sales visits to America and elsewhere. Also they're largely unknown so they can't charge a premium for their reputation.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

Was at C & L today for a second fitting. Very impressed with the cut and fit. Jacket cut to fit the bulk of both my wallet (sadly not as bulky as I would like ) and my mobile. Trousers with overlapping seam done by hand. 

Big project is new DJ complete with grossgrain silk facings, set in from lapel by 1/8 inch, turned cuff with similar facing, waistcoat ditto, green silk lining and old fashioned squiggle braid on trouser, all in midnight blue (silk facings black). Will post pictures on first fitting in May abw...


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

As to prices, I suspect that the Row reflects what can be charged rather than what must be charged. Also, there is no big expensive shopfitting, advertising, travel costs etc. C & L are massively busy at the moment. I did a quick count of work in progress (from first fitting only - the rest of the work is not on display). There were 19 suits, 8 jackets and 5 coats.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> I posted that abbreviation earlier and it seems that you missed it.


Hello,
So you did! Sorry about that!!

Chris.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

chrstc / outrigger / Simon, thanks for your feedback. On the matter of rent, the trade association has successfully persuaded the government and the landowner (or perhaps landowners, I forget) to "manage" the rents for tailors on the Row. That was a few years ago. That said, Anderson & Sheppard did get driven out by the rental increase, so the rents are by no means cheap. The point about the quality of shopfittings is well taken except that the capex on those things, especially for the more established tailors on the Row who do not have a meaningful RTW business, have been written off a long time ago. Whether one is on the Row or very much off the Row, most tend not to spend much on marketing, other than those that do RTW marketing. Bespoke tailoring is a very low margin business especially relative to the RTW business, so everything else being equal, I can be persuaded that the rent & rates might be the prime suspect. But then, Bloomsbury isn't exactly an industrial park in the outskirts of Hong Kong, so the occupancy costs cannot be cheap enough to justify a >50% selling price difference... 

As for the observation about premium, it is absolutely correct that well known names tend to charge more but that is not really because they are just extracting more profit but because they tend to have proportionately higher overheads like occupancy and marketing costs. Therefore their gross margin might be higher but the EBITDA / net margin tends to be consistent with the smaller, less known firms, ie, the famous guys don't necessarily make higher margin.

If they fuse the front, then the prices would make sense, but all reports indicate that they don't. I'm sorry to obsess about the prices but I am simply amazed...

Simon, I am very curious how your DJ turns out. I have also been thinking about a midnight blue version with grosgrain facing and turned up cuffs. How will your buttons look like?


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

misterdonuts said:


> If they fuse the front, then the prices would make sense, but all reports indicate that they don't. I'm sorry to obsess about the prices but I am simply amazed...


Hello,
Please don't forget that there are in fact several other tailors in London who produce true bespoke suits for around the £1400 or less mark. A quick search on this forum will reveal threads on most of them. George of Harringey has been well-reviewed in the past and makes a true bespoke suit in his workshop with floating canvas etc for around £650. Perhaps the most "famous" review of his services can be found here:

https://www.bownsbespoke.com/george.htm

Also see Couch and Hoskin and Tobias-Davis as examples I can think of offhand. However both of these firms are certainly at the very highest edge of that price bracket and are really nearer to £1500.
In other words, though, there are plenty of tailoring options at below SR prices, even though most of us would love to go to the Row for one reason or another.

Chris.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

A good pointer for those of us who would like a tailored suit, but cannot Savile Row prices.

I note Simon Myerson mentioned a clever ploy of getting cloth in Huddersfield tailored in Leeds. He gave a few tailors names.

I wonder do they make fully canvassed jackets ?

What is the advantage of Connock and Lockie compared to these Yorkshire tailors ?


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> Please don't forget that there are in fact several other tailors in London who produce true bespoke suits for around the £1400 or less mark. A quick search on this forum will reveal threads on most of them. George of Harringey has been well-reviewed in the past and makes a true bespoke suit in his workshop with floating canvas etc for around £650. Perhaps the most "famous" review of his services can be found here:
> 
> https://www.bownsbespoke.com/george.htm
> ...


Chris, many thanks for this. Very helpful as you can see I am a newbie around here. Have you had any experience with any of them?

Part of the whole "experience" is the personal relationship or comfort one develops with the cutter. Economics is certainly important but it would mean nothing if one cannot have a comfortable and therefore open dialogue about one's requirements and preferences. After all, it is a collaborative endeavour and there is something to be said about the comfort level that has been vested in a particular cutter / firm (and a few pints and chuckles) over a course of several suits... That said, one is not married to a cutter or a firm and price differences do provide a significant temptation for eyes and hands to wander... I don't recall anyone telling me, thou shalt not covet they neighbour's tailor :icon_smile_big:


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Kingstonian said:


> A good pointer for those of us who would like a tailored suit, but cannot Savile Row prices.
> 
> I note Simon Myerson mentioned a clever ploy of getting cloth in Huddersfield tailored in Leeds. He gave a few tailors names.
> 
> ...


C&L has a reputation for excellent cut, canvassing and lining. It is always a good sign if such a small firm is very busy.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

misterdonuts said:


> Chris, many thanks for this. Very helpful as you can see I am a newbie around here. Have you had any experience with any of them?
> 
> Part of the whole "experience" is the personal relationship or comfort one develops with the cutter. Economics is certainly important but it would mean nothing if one cannot have a comfortable and therefore open dialogue about one's requirements and preferences. After all, it is a collaborative endeavour and there is something to be said about the comfort level that has been vested in a particular cutter / firm (and a few pints and chuckles) over a course of several suits... That said, one is not married to a cutter or a firm and price differences do provide a significant temptation for eyes and hands to wander... I don't recall anyone telling me, thou shalt not covet they neighbour's tailor :icon_smile_big:


Hello,
I do not have experience with any of the firms concerned...yet.. but I share all of the views expressed in your post. I too would like to try several tailors before settling on one due to a combination of the experience, the finished product and the costs involved. I wish you the best of luck in your search but please post back regularly during your experimentation as I would welcome any advice born out of experience that you could pass on to me.



Bishop of Briggs said:


> C&L has a reputation for excellent cut, canvassing and lining. It is always a good sign if such a small firm is very busy.


I totally agree! Also the cutters in C&L were Savile Row trained and so this might be another factor that would be worth taking in to consideration. The firms in Yorkshire may well be excellent too but C&L certainly seem to be getting plenty of good online recommendations at the moment (see the London Lounge and SF for further comments on them).

Chris.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Trilby said:


> Lambs Conduit Street (what is a Lamb's conduit???)


If you lived in Vermont, you'd know this stuff.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> I do not have experience with any of the firms concerned...yet.. but I share all of the views expressed in your post. I too would like to try several tailors before settling on one due to a combination of the experience, the finished product and the costs involved. I wish you the best of luck in your search but please post back regularly during your experimentation as I would welcome any advice born out of experience that you could pass on to me.


I have not revealed who my tailors are because I somehow feel guilty about my interest in other firms as expressed so publicly in this forum. I suppose I feel a bit funny about the whole thing because I have developed a good relationship with the staff as well as the owner proprietor and now I am being tempted primarily by price. Bottom line, I do not wish to, out of respect for my current tailors, provoke an unduly disproportionate discussion about why one might stray from them and take the business to, for example, Connock & Lockie. In other words, I do not wish to unintentionally spark a discussion about who is better because I believe that the question is a strange one to be honest.

That said, the younger cutters tend to move around amongst various firms, just like in many other industries, so any notion related to loyalty and faithfulness may be misplaced unless one is referring to the veterans and proprietors or simply the name on the label.

In any case, if I do succumb to temptation in Bloomsbury, I shall report back on the result. :icon_smile_wink:


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

misterdonuts said:


> I have not revealed who my tailors are because I somehow feel guilty about my interest in other firms as expressed so publicly in this forum. I suppose I feel a bit funny about the whole thing because I have developed a good relationship with the staff as well as the owner proprietor and now I am being tempted primarily by price. Bottom line, I do not wish to, out of respect for my current tailors, provoke an unduly disproportionate discussion about why one might stray from them and take the business to, for example, Connock & Lockie. In other words, I do not wish to unintentionally spark a discussion about who is better because I believe that the question is a strange one to be honest.
> 
> That said, the younger cutters tend to move around amongst various firms, just like in many other industries, so any notion related to loyalty and faithfulness may be misplaced unless one is referring to the veterans and proprietors or simply the name on the label.
> 
> In any case, if I do succumb to temptation in Bloomsbury, I shall report back on the result. :icon_smile_wink:


Hello,
Thank you for your explanation and I hope that you make the right decision in the end- whatever that might be!

Thanks very much,
Chris.


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## MTB (Aug 7, 2008)

I paid a brief visit to all three shops yesterday to enquire about having a 2 piece suit made. Impressions/info as follows:

Connock & Lockie - Friendly enough, not bending over backwards to help but no real criticism though. Fully bespoke starting at around £1300. No semi-bespoke/MTM

Sims & MacDonald - Definitely the most welcoming environment, very helpful. Fully bespoke starting at around £1000. Definitely no semi-bespoke/MTM despite what I have read elsewhere.

C Antonio - TINY shop! Very haphazard. Very unpolished service but charming in its own way. Fully bespoke starting at £800. Again, no semi-bespoke/MTM.

I have to say, of all the actual suits I saw either finished or in progress, the ones in C Antonio looked the best, but I am absolutely no expert (in fact a complete novice).

For that reason (plus the price) I would be inclined to try C Antonio. But does anyone have any experience of suits from there? My only fear is ending up looking like De Niro in the Godfather (might not be such a bad thing.....).

Thanks


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## figliachepiange (Jun 13, 2008)

MTB said:


> I have to say, of all the actual suits I saw either finished or in progress, the ones in C Antonio looked the best, but I am absolutely no expert (in fact a complete novice).
> 
> For that reason (plus the price) I would be inclined to try C Antonio. But does anyone have any experience of suits from there? My only fear is ending up looking like De Niro in the Godfather (might not be such a bad thing.....).
> 
> Thanks


I am a customer of C Antoniou, and he has recently made me a sportcoat. It is very well made, and the finishing (button holes, etc) is equal to anything from Savile Row. If you are still interested, I think I'll make a post about it in the near future and will keep you posted.


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## Umer (May 5, 2005)

Figliachepiange, please do so.


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## SimonC (Nov 15, 2006)

Just to keep this thread alive, I noted that Sims & Macdonald have a sign in their window advertising that they will make a bespoke suit from £875, and offer interest-free credit (!). I might just pop in and see them next week.

Additionally I popped into C Antoniou - there was a decent quantity of work in progress hanging on the rail, though as someone else commented it's a small shop and slightly haphazard. The lady present informed me that suits started at £850, plus another £150 for a waistcoat if required.


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## emk (Jul 19, 2005)

Has anyone had any recent experience with Sims & MacDonald? I am seriously considering them for my next suit.

If you have photos, all the better!


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## Cavaliere (Oct 25, 2006)

I have experience of all three firms mentioned in this thread (Connock, Sims and Antoniou). Connock is the best of the bunch, but, as with most British tailors charging less than £3,000 per suit, the finished product is as stiff as cardboard, heavy and with no discernible silhouette. The trousers are often too wide and come with a high rise that even my grandfather should be embarrassed to wear. Try asking Connock to make-up a 6 or 7 ounce zephyr weight and see what you get!

It is all too easy to be seduced by wooden benches, glass and mahogany counters and dead beasts hanging from walls. If you like that sort of thing - and wish to contain cost - you might try Childs at Wandsworth, but I warn you that you'll get much of the same.

If you're prepared to pay £1,100, you should be prepared to pay £1,600, in which case you're better off going to Brian Staples at Kingly Street - provided, of course, that you're not put off by a squalid workshop!


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Cavaliere said:


> Connock is the best of the bunch, but, as with most British tailors charging less than £3,000 per suit, the finished product is as stiff as cardboard, heavy and with no discernible silhouette.


Hello,
This does seem odd as the C&L suits that have been pictured here before are very soft in their construction with quite a pronounced silhouette.

Chris.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

Cavaliere said:


> I have experience of all three firms mentioned in this thread (Connock, Sims and Antoniou). Connock is the best of the bunch, but, as with most British tailors charging less than £3,000 per suit, the finished product is as stiff as cardboard, heavy and with no discernible silhouette. The trousers are often too wide and come with a high rise that even my grandfather should be embarrassed to wear. Try asking Connock to make-up a 6 or 7 ounce zephyr weight and see what you get!
> 
> It is all too easy to be seduced by wooden benches, glass and mahogany counters and dead beasts hanging from walls. If you like that sort of thing - and wish to contain cost - you might try Childs at Wandsworth, but I warn you that you'll get much of the same.
> 
> If you're prepared to pay £1,100, you should be prepared to pay £1,600, in which case you're better off going to Brian Staples at Kingly Street - provided, of course, that you're not put off by a squalid workshop!


I can only say that your experience is totally different to my own. I now have 3 C&L suits. Both work suits are soft and well fitted, with a good shape and trousers that have a normal rise - as I discussed and agreed. The Dinner Jacket is cut close and has a rise appropriate to the waistcoat that accompanies it. The 8-9oz cloth from which it is cut is holding up well after a number of wearings. All 3 suits are distinguished by their lightness and the tailor who does my repairs (after retiring from the Row) kindly looked inside one of the jackets for me and said that he had never seen such careful stitching.

I am not sure why there is a seemingly arbitrary monetary minimum which must be paid for a 'proper' suit. The things which you criticise are not issues relating to materials, but skill. If you are really asserting that the appropriate skill level is only accessible on the Row and via various 'celebrity' tailors (which is where your £3,000 minimum puts it) then I entirely disagree.


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## Cavaliere (Oct 25, 2006)

Let me be clear. The (rough rule of thumb) sum of £3,000 is based on the following: (1) it represents the 'entry' level not only to the Row, but to the great tailors of Italy (e.g., Caraceni, the erstwhile Angelo, Panico, Formosa, Gallo, etc.), the USA (e.g., Fioravanti), Austria (e.g., Knieze) and France (e.g., Cristiani); (2) you generally get what you pay for; (3) paying substantially less than this sum is, in my experience, a risk.

Let me also be clear as to the following: I have spent nearly thirty years trying to hunt down 'value' tailors. The net result is that I have wasted thousands of pounds on suits, coats and trousers which I was embarrassed to wear. The only beneficiary of this bounty was the charity Oxfam. (If I were sufficiently wealthy, they'd have found their way to my footman.)

I must also here declare an interest: I wear only unlined coats - save for the buggy - with no shoulder-padding; I like a coat to feel as if I've draped a linen handkerchief over my shoulders. This is not part of the British tradition and one of the gravest mistakes a customer can make is to impose his style on another tradition. And this is where we get back to cost: haven't you noticed that the 'cheap' tailors will tell you that they "can make anything you want?" Well, they can't; they have rules and habits. The results are invariably a disaster.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

Cavaliere said:


> Let me be clear. The (rough rule of thumb) sum of £3,000 is based on the following: (1) it represents the 'entry' level not only to the Row, but to the great tailors of Italy (e.g., Caraceni, the erstwhile Angelo, Panico, Formosa, Gallo, etc.), the USA (e.g., Fioravanti), Austria (e.g., Knieze) and France (e.g., Cristiani); (2) you generally get what you pay for; (3) paying substantially less than this sum is, in my experience, a risk.
> 
> Let me also be clear as to the following: I have spent nearly thirty years trying to hunt down 'value' tailors. The net result is that I have wasted thousands of pounds on suits, coats and trousers which I was embarrassed to wear. The only beneficiary of this bounty was the charity Oxfam. (If I were sufficiently wealthy, they'd have found their way to my footman.)
> 
> I must also here declare an interest: I wear only unlined coats - save for the buggy - with no shoulder-padding; I like a coat to feel as if I've draped a linen handkerchief over my shoulders. This is not part of the British tradition and one of the gravest mistakes a customer can make is to impose his style on another tradition. And this is where we get back to cost: haven't you noticed that the 'cheap' tailors will tell you that they "can make anything you want?" Well, they can't; they have rules and habits. The results are invariably a disaster.


A number of noted firms, including Meyer & Mortimer and Andersen & Sheppard charge below your 'entry' price.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Cavaliere said:


> I must also here declare an interest: I wear only unlined coats - save for the buggy - with no shoulder-padding; I like a coat to feel as if I've draped a linen handkerchief over my shoulders. This is not part of the British tradition and one of the gravest mistakes a customer can make is to impose his style on another tradition. And this is where we get back to cost: haven't you noticed that the 'cheap' tailors will tell you that they "can make anything you want?" Well, they can't; they have rules and habits. The results are invariably a disaster.


May I ask why did you spend so much on English suits if you prefer Neapolitan tailoring?


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## Cavaliere (Oct 25, 2006)

In answer to Jibrank: (1) I should be most surprised to find that Andersen & Sheppard charges less; (2) if it does, it doesn't charge much less; (3) I did state that the sum of £3,000 was a rough rule of thumb minimum.

Good point, Culverwood! The answer is complicated, but it boils down, in essence, to the fact that in my early fashion sleuthing days I didn't have too many excuses to go to Italy; I now have an office in Rome (in addition to London), which enables me to attend the requisite tryings-on (without having to wait several months for completion). I also have a job which often requires me to wear a vest (or 'waistcoat', if you prefer). Since vests are rarely worn in Italy and Italian trousers are cut with a low rise and belt loops - vests, in my opinion, require a high rise and buttons (inside the waistband) for suspenders - a 'good' three-piece suit would require me to IMPOSE upon Italian tailors British traditions and therefore asking them to do something which they are unaccustomed to doing.


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## DocRobert (Jul 29, 2011)

*Connock & Lockie in the 50s and 60s*

In 1952, as an impoverished young graphic designer, I stopped to gaze in amazement at a pair of trousers on a legs dummy. they were standing in a shop window in New Oxford Street WC1. You must understand that in the 1950s - outside Savile Row, English trousers were effectively standardised with pleated pockets, capacious at the crotch and with 22" bottoms. The trousers in this window were beautifully cut, flat-fronted with cross pockets, and followed the leg to c17" bottoms. The side seams piped. I was 24 and earned only £9 a week but I just had to go inside. This was Connock & Lockie and Mr Connock told me he'd be happy to accept a hire-purchase account. I came away in a dream. I'd always had to alter my off-the-peg clothes myself, but I had just ordered my first bespoke two-piece SB suit in dark grey wool worsted at £19. That suit was quite wonderful. It was to be the first of dozens of suits and coats that I would order from Mr Connock and much later from Mr Craig, over 20 years. I soon learned the secret of those wonderful clothes - Connock employed an old ex-Savile Row cutter. Everyone asked where I got my clothes and soon dozens of my friends from adland were queuing at their door.


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## codhead (Mar 9, 2008)

A couple of hours ago, I bought a Connock & Lockie 3-piece suit in a local charity shop. It is in a medium-weight worsted in puppy-tooth check and is in phenomenal condition. All of the buttons are leather football-type and the coat buttons (including cuffs), don't look as if they've ever been fastened, the buttonholes are as stiff as board. Considering it was tailored in 1987, it looks as if it just came through the shop door.


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