# You might be trad if . . .



## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

Since I'm trying to zero in on just exactly what trad entails, not only in terms of dress but also in terms of lifestyle, I thought it might be fun to list the telltale signs and symptoms.

Please indulge me. You might be trad if . . .

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

...if you not familiar enough with the web to have found this site.

...if you don't discuss what makes you Trad.

-- RJman


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

You habitually go around looking like this:


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

You might be trad if...

1. It wouldn't occur to you to go shopping at the mall

2. You have a closetful of buttondowns of various vintages, some of which have frayed collars and cuffs

3. Your first shopping excursion was to Brooks or Press and you continued to shop there through the decades growing up. And it never occurred to you that your clothing style was staying the same while the winds of fashion changed every which-a-way around you...

4. You wouldn't see the point of discussing the finer points of trad clothing on a discussion board on the internet and you'd be incredulous to learn that some folks do... "They _what?_ Do they *really?* Whatever on earth for? Why don't they just go shopping and then get on with doing something more interesting?"

Markus


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## fashionvictim (Jan 9, 2005)

The first rule of Trad is: you do *not talk about Trad*!

The second rule of Trad is: you do *not talk about Trad*!

...

It just seemed appropriate 

-- Mike


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

What happens in Brooks Brothers stays in Brooks Brothers.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

This is an interesting thread, since one of the original theological/intellectual underpinnings of "Trad" on this forum was the notion that a true Trad would never spend much time thinking about clothing. Indeed, that was considered the strength of the Trad wardrobe: you wouldn't need to think about it much, since it would all work together and would be acceptable for most occasions.

The Trad vs Preppy thread was perhaps most exciting, since that marked the real 'drawing of lines' on this forum, and the most vigorous debate. And not likely to be repeated.

DD


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

. . . your wife continues to dress you as your mother did.



> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> This is an interesting thread, since one of the original theological/intellectual underpinnings of "Trad" on this forum was the notion that a true Trad would never spend much time thinking about clothing. Indeed, that was considered the strength of the Trad wardrobe: you wouldn't need to think about it much, since it would all work together and would be acceptable for most occasions.
> 
> ...


Can you provide a link to that thread?

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Sadly, it appears that thread has vanished into the ether. Perhaps someone has privately archived it.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> This is an interesting thread, since one of the original theological/intellectual underpinnings of "Trad" on this forum was the notion that a true Trad would never spend much time thinking about clothing. Indeed, that was considered the strength of the Trad wardrobe: you wouldn't need to think about it much, since it would all work together and would be acceptable for most occasions.
> 
> ...


I agree with the not thinking about it, but then when you google something for advice on J. Press a year ago, and end up finding Harris's American/Trad thread as I did, it becomes irresistible to talk about it. Suddenly you realize it's part of your identity. It's a shocking experience.

The other thing is, as seemingly fewer people of late have been dressing trad, one notices oneself standing out and therefore, even if he never did before, begins to think about what he's wearing, and why, and where it all fits in. And then, if he's devious like me, he conspires to convert his non-trad friends...and, to this point, succeeds.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

So if you weren't born into a trad family, but want to become or at least emulate the trad, how do you learn without discussion? Perhaps the truely trad don't need to speak of trad, but as for me....


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> Sadly, it appears that thread has vanished into the ether. Perhaps someone has privately archived it.


Actually, I have saved in a Word file the bulk of that thread, which I would be happy to either e-mail to anyone or maybe post here (somehow). Obviously, I did not keep all the short, 'conversational' posts in the thread, just the meatier parts. Anyone interested can send me an e-mail and I'll reply back with the text.

Maybe I'll make a pdf of it, for convenience.

DD


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by young guy_
> 
> So if you weren't born into a trad family, but want to become or at least emulate the trad, how do you learn without discussion? Perhaps the truely trad don't need to speak of trad, but as for me....


And what if you were born into a trad family and don't know it, and furthermore can't identify it because no one will tell you what trad is? I've heard some people claim it is the same as preppy or Ivy League, while others imply that it is quite distinct.

However, if its essential characteristic is that it does not change or evolve with your changing sensibilities, then at least that much is clear. It seems trad happens by default.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Don't worry. If you were born into a trad family, I reckon your servants would have told you by now...



> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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How on Earth have you converted your non-trad friends? I wish I could do it. You must have a silver tongue. (I suppose that's good since you're going to be an attorney).

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Cantabrigian_
> 
> Don't worry. If you were born into a trad family, I reckon your servants would have told you by now...


I don't know about this. The most trad people I've met fit into two categories: the moderately well-to-do, and prep school faculty members.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

...you wear, are surrounded by and espouse many things found in the Preppy Handbook but deny ever having owned or read it, even for a laugh.


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

Have more than 10 posts on AA.....


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## jasonpraxis (Mar 29, 2005)

...embroidered on your Nantucket Reds is a Golden Retriever with a bad haircut.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Knightly_
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Easy....they see I care about the way I look. They have an interview to go to, they need a jacket or a suit. They say "[Coolidge], where should I go to get my first suit" I say "J. Press or Brooks Brothers, want a ride?"

Actually, not quite that easy. What usually happens is first they want a repp tie. So I tell them to order it from J. Press. Then they end up with the catalog. Things move along nicely from there. Keep in mind this is 4 friends or so. The teachings of trad are hard to spread unless you are close to someone. Most 22 year olds don't know Press from Men's Wearhouse. It's just a question of sending them to the right place. They say "shall I go to Men's Wearhouse" I say "no, Men's Wearhouse is crap. Get it from J. Press, it will last longer"

Or they just ask where I got a particular item...ie seersucker suit, madras jacket.

"Where'd you get that suit"
"J. Press"
"Is that part of J. Crew"
"No, but it's close by, just down the road in New Haven. YOu want my catalog?"

Also what happens is a girl will like it and want to know where the shop is for her boyfriend.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by jasonpraxis_
> 
> ...embroidered on your Nantucket Reds is a Golden Retriever with a bad haircut.


. . . if you have an _original_ pair of Nantucket Reds that you still wear.

I'm still a trad novice, but I believe the only thing the true trad will have embroidered on his Nantucket Reds are spouting whales in kelly green or navy blue (more often worn on a cloth belt), or the name of his country club. Of course, they are only purchased from Murray's Toggery and always by physically entering the shop.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

I can't recall ever having seen a pair of Nantucket Reds with anything embroidered on them.

Regards,

Charles

https://bostonhistory.typepad.com


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> I can't recall ever having seen a pair of Nantucket Reds with anything embroidered on them.
> 
> ...


Nor I.

Poplin red shorts, yes (whales, lobsters) but not nantucket reds.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> 
> You habitually go around looking like this:


I love that picture of Plimpton because (sans tie and fedora) that's the way I show up for law school classes (sans jacket 50% of the time).


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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Yes, this is correct. Now there are polo shirts available in the pre-faded version of Nantucket reds, and these can have logos, etc. embroidered on them. The whales, lobsters, etc. are found on belts, ties, or if on pants, white pants.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by young guy_
> 
> So if you weren't born into a trad family, but want to become or at least emulate the trad, how do you learn without discussion? Perhaps the truely trad don't need to speak of trad, but as for me....


I've always disagreed with the idea of thinking about the Trad as something genetic or something that one is born into. The Trad is essentially democratic (with a small "d" unfortunately). Those who wish to pervert the Trad from it's true providential path will proffer theories of the Trad. I believe them to be mistaken. Though my respect for the Ultra-Trad wing, now in a power vacuum since the departure of Harris, knows no bounds.


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## Yalie (Nov 24, 2005)

Horace:

Why do you say "unfortunately" that Trad is "democratic" with a small "d"? It seems to me that Trad, in order to be Trad, should be above the political fray. There's certainly an element of cultural or aesthetic conservatism in it, but I think it's wrong to align it with a particular political party. Have I misread your comment?



> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
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## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

No, sir, you didn't misread my comment -- but upon reflection, I believe I misthought and mispoke. I am, after all, a leftist and apparently, an egoist, though I hope this quotation won't be taken out of context.



> quote:_Originally posted by Yalie_
> 
> Horace:
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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

My dear Horace,
There are of few of us who proclaim to be Trad and Democratic with a capital "D". As fas as leftists go, I gave up my membership in the SWP when I graduated from college. There was something about working in BB suits in a bank that didn't seem right keeping up my membership dues - LOL.
Cheers


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## Yalie (Nov 24, 2005)

Horace:

Thanks for your clarification. I think maybe someone like Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., might be an example of an iconic Liberal/ Democrat who consistently dresses traditionally. But he is, or at least was, the definition of the "vital center" liberal who still adhered to classical values and was self-consciously American.

Perhaps I am biased as well, but it seems that after the 1960s, at least on college campuses, it was difficult to dress trad and be seen as part of the liberal cause. At least today in much of the Northeast, and in college campuses like Yale, dressing trad goes against the "egalitarian imperative," wherein true leftists feel as though they must look, as well as act, in such a way that allows them to be in solidarity with the poor. A man who spends thousands on custom suits won't be granted membership into true leftist circles.

I find this lamentable, but I think it is also the natural outgrowth of real leftist philosophy, grounded as it is in radical egalitarianism. That said, the Schlesinger model is still an admirable one, but it requires one to be more moderate in his liberal pretensions.

I myself follow the cue of the Puritans. And I see trad dress as embodying a (culturally) conservative respect for tradition even as it represents the perennially new.



> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
> 
> No, sir, you didn't misread my comment -- but upon reflection, I believe I misthought and mispoke. I am, after all, a leftist and apparently, an egoist, though I hope this quotation won't be taken out of context.
> 
> ...


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## MichaelB (Dec 17, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Knightly_
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Speaking as a prep-school teacher, I must agree.


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by MichaelB_
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I guess that's probably one of the reasons that I'm doing my best to join your ranks next year.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

*You might be trad if . . .*

. . . you are from New England.

. . . you are from Connecticut.

. . . you are from Fairfield county.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

I know I shouldn't, but whenever I see this thread I can't help but hear Jeff Foxworthy's drawl reciting, "If your new TV is sitting on your old TV, you might be *******..."

-- RJman


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## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yalie_
> 
> Horace:
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Sir,

You'd be surprised how many lefties where custom-made suits. Enough to make anyone question the cause.

Still, I hope none of us are materialist enough to equate what we wear with whom we feel solidarity -- esp. when we feel solidarity with other humans.


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## RichardS (Nov 20, 2004)

If trad means adhering to conservative Ivy League 50s clothing style, shopping always the same clothing decade after decade in the same shops and wearing this clothing in always the same manner decade after decade I wonder...

why we have so many threads about it?[?]


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by RJman_
> 
> I know I shouldn't, but whenever I see this thread I can't help but hear Jeff Foxworthy's drawl reciting, "If your new TV is sitting on your old TV, you might be *******..."
> 
> -- RJman


My intent was to develop a somewhat loftier version centering on trad, since I have strong suspicions that I might have been raised trad.

You might be trad if . . .

. . . you went to prep school.

. . . you attended an Ivy League university.

. . . you wore those suede bluchers with the orange rubber sole in a long discontinued color, oxford shirts and khakis at said university.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

your house is filled with worn Persian rugs.
your driveway is raked gravel or oyster shell.
you don't buy furniture you inherit.
you inherit and wear  your dad's old cloths.
Cheers


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> your house is filled with worn Persian rugs.
> your driveway is raked gravel or oyster shell.
> ...


 . . . several of the Persian rugs are also inherited.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

You have a somewhat dour father who you had never seen go shopping until the age of 14, despite the fact that he's always well dressed. One day, at the dinner table, you ask your mother if she'll take you out to get a suit for the homecoming dance. Your dad chokes on his meatloaf and shakes his head. "Come downtown with me tomorrow," he says. End of discussion. He takes you to a store unlike any you've ever seen. It's not in a mall. It's organized and quiet. A 65 year old man emerges from the back room, smiling, and shakes your dad's hand. After introductions, the old man fits you in a navy blue, 3/2 roll, flat front suit. After the fitting, you shake hands and go home. No paper signed, no mention of payment.

Fast forward 8 years: The next time you go into the shop, the old man is still there and asks if the suit still fits.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Mr. K.
Ahhhhhh...deja vu.
Cheers


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Knightly_
> 
> You have a somewhat dour father who you had never seen go shopping until the age of 14, despite the fact that he's always well dressed. One day, at the dinner table, you ask your mother if she'll take you out to get a suit for the homecoming dance. Your dad chokes on his meatloaf and shakes his head. "Come downtown with me tomorrow," he says. End of discussion. He takes you to a store unlike any you've ever seen. It's not in a mall. It's organized and quiet. A 65 year old man emerges from the back room, smiling, and shakes your dad's hand. After introductions, the old man fits you in a navy blue, 3/2 roll, flat front suit. After the fitting, you shake hands and go home. No paper signed, no mention of payment.
> 
> ...


YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! SPOT ON! The amazing thing is that for generation after generation, they manage to come up with seemingly the SAME 65 year old man! I wonder if it's like an au pair service?


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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Great anecdote!

*You might be trad if . . .*

. . . your parents owned at least one summer house in a posh seaside resort where you spent summers.

. . . you went to equestrian camp.

. . . you went to tennis camp.

. . . you went to sailing camp.

. . . you'd been to all three before the age of 12.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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In my case (since my parents were divorced), at the age of 13 I was sent by my maternal Grandmother to see Mr. So and So at the 346 BB. He took care of me from middle school through high school and during college breaks. AFter I got out of college, I went in to see him and discovered he had retired. I felt like part of me had departed as well. He was such a helpfull influence, gently guiding and providing direction. Many was the time that I would ask "What about this ?" and his reply would be "That is an excellent choice, but this may be more appropriate for you". Invariably he was correct.

Best,

Ross


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

*You might be trad if . . .*

. . . you can trace your ancestry back more than three generations.

. . . you have at least one Mayflower ancestor.

. . . you still keep clothes in the trunk your Mayflower ancestor brought over from the Old Country.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## FrancisPlantagenet (Oct 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> Sadly, it appears that thread has vanished into the ether. Perhaps someone has privately *archived* it.


Archivist saves and squirrels away each and every discussion forum message. Do you remember having a bad day back in 1996 when in one of your messages you may have said a few things that were...well, perhaps a little...hasty? Don't worry, Archivist still has it and will post it to the forum if you begin to get the upper hand in battle. Archivist can be a very effective and fearsome Warrior.

____________________________________________________________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

Archivist may have a Mayflower ancestor.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
> 
> *You might be trad if . . .*
> 
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Does two out of three count?


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
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Even one out of three counts!

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## mendozar (Dec 13, 2005)

Hilarious answers to the question, check out sociological satires like Paul Flusser's _Class_ and Lisa Birnbach's _The Official Preppy Handbook_. At least, that's the impression I've been getting from browsing around the forum.

Cheers,

Rufino


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

I've seen Fussell's book quoted often here and it's a hoot. Anyone who mistakes the tone of that is likely to become very confused. I've never heard of the _Preppy Handbook_ before reading this thread. Is it in the same vein?

*You might be trad if . . .*

. . . you'd never even heard of the _Preppy Handbook_ before reading this thread.

. . . you never realized "preppy" or "trad" was something definable until you found out someone had defined it.

. . . you might benefit from a book about how _not_ to be preppy or trad, though you would probably scoff at it.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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I think they manage to look 65 starting at age 35 until 75 when they retire


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

You think the female models in the LL Bean catalogs are hot.


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

How can someone not have heard of _The Official Preppy Handbook_?

I'm not calling anyone a liar, but that just seems unbelievable. The book was published in 1980, and sold well. It wasn't some kind of underground/indepedent thing....it was very mainstream. Even to this day, it can be found at half the used book stores in America.

Unless "true trads" are so aloof they haven't paid attention to pop culture at all for the last 25 years?


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
> 
> *You might be trad if . . .*
> 
> . . . you still keep clothes in the trunk your Mayflower ancestor brought over from the Old Country.


If someone claims to have clothes from the Mayflower, I need to see it to believe it. That just seems outrageous.

If I had them, I'd wear those buckle shoes, and black hats with the buckles on them around town. Why let 400 year old vintage clothes go to waste away in storage?


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by sunnisalafi_
> Unless "true trads" are so aloof they haven't paid attention to pop culture at all for the last 25 years?


We have our handicaps but we're not that bad. When I was at school it was actually the "trads" who bought all the first copies. I even attended a few parties where sections were read aloud accompanied with lots of liquor and laughter.
Cheers

PS Oh wait, we did that with _Love Story_, or was it _Jonathan Livingston Seagull._


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
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Yeah, I know.
I imagine preppys (oops, I mean trads) get the biggest kick out of TOPH as it's about them....and pretty dead-on.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by KenR_
> 
> You think the female models in the LL Bean catalogs are hot.


They aren't?

(I prefer the ladies of Land's End, actually.)


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
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I read an article in the NYT from the 80s in which the authors of OPH were interviewed. In it, she noted that the book was not really a complete satire, that though some parts were a little sarcastic, the four who wrote it wanted it to be a realistic guide. One reported going to her parents' house and being told by parents and their friends that the book had "revealed too much" (!) The quote I remember from it was "one lady told my mother she had gone home and counted 20 duck-adorned items in her house".

It's pretty accurate in many ways.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by sunnisalafi_
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Actually, what I meant was keeping modern clothes in the antique trunk. Someone in my family (not me) has the trunk from the Mayflower ancestor. Whether they keep clothes in it or not, I don't know. I made that part up. Actual 400-year-old clothes? That _would_ be something!



> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
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My thought exactly!

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
> Actually, what I meant was keeping modern clothes in the antique trunk. Someone in my family (not me) has the trunk from the Mayflower ancestor. Whether they keep clothes in it or not, I don't know. I made that part up. Actual 400-year-old clothes? That _would_ be something!


Aaahh! 
That was a dumb misunderstanding on my part.

I'd still wear the Pilgrim hat though. LOL!


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

There's that Mayflower referred to again. 

The first permanent English settlement on these shores was founded 1607 at Jamestown, Virginia. The House of Burgesses was already in session in Virginia before the Mayflower ever set sail.

The Plymouth pilgrims did not arrive in Massachusetts until 1620. They were squatters with no legal right to settle where they did and no authority to establish a government. What exactly is the significance of Mayflower ancestry? Plymouth colony was only one of many settlements, and not even the first, to follow after Jamestown.

(I think there's a vast Northern conspiracy taken hold in our grade school classrooms, particularly come November every year )


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## winn (Dec 31, 2005)

_The first permanent English settlement on these shores was founded 1607 at Jamestown, Virginia. The House of Burgesses was already in session in Virginia before the Mayflower ever set sail._ (rojo, 3 February 2006)

It really blows my mind to think that 2007 is the 400th anniversary of the settlement at Jamestown!

I am reminded of this every time I see a Virginia license plate.

Looking forward to celebrations in the Old Dominion next year, especially around Tidewater,
Winn


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Hmm, I had never heard of the Preppy Handbook untill I came to this forum.

And I have duck decor too, as do my parents, and grandparents, and great grandparents...

---------------------


Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I must confess that during the couple of brief glances I offered to the "preppy" handbook years ago, I was a tad disappointed to learn that there was no mention of Eljo's, The Andover Shop, or Max's Men's Store. When I saw that they had bothered to suggest Jos. A. Bank and Paul Stuart instead, I just handed the thing back (with a wee bit of disgust) to its owner. Oh well. 
Cheers,
Harris


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Thatcher_
> 
> I must confess that during the couple of brief glances I offered to the "preppy" handbook years ago, I was a tad disappointed to learn that there was no mention of Eljo's, The Andover Shop, or Max's Men's Store. When I saw that they had bothered to suggest Jos. A. Bank and Paul Stuart instead, I just handed the thing back (with a wee bit of disgust) to its owner. Oh well.
> Cheers,
> Harris


However, weren't JAB and PS a little more trad in 1980 than now? JAB especially?


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Good point. True.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> There's that Mayflower referred to again.
> 
> ...


If you had a Jamestown ancestor, you might be trad.

My great grandfather 12 generations back helped found New Amsterdam. His name appears on the Walloon Monument in Battery Park, NYC. Those joyless Puritans were overrated. I think the Dutch were much more interesting.

Good lord, I might really be trad!

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Nantucket Red_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Walloons were not Dutch but French Protestants from Wallonia (now part of Belguim) They were the first settlers in Manhattan under Dutch auspices.

I have Jamestown, New Amsterdam, as well as Mayflower ancestors. I think the big deal about the Pilgrims is the religeous freedom aspect whereas the former 2 were commercial ventures.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Religious freedom, yes, but freedom to practice Puritanism. Religious _tolerance_ was not a hallmark of the Puritan experiment.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, you are correct. My great grandfather, Jesse DeForest, was instrumental in launching the New Amsterdam venture from Leyden, where the family had settled after fleeing Avesnes, France, which was, as you mention, in Wallonia.

I have a rather obscure Mayflower ancestor who would have been named Barrett, and a Mayflower step-ancestor (provider of the trunk).

Literide, I believe you qualify as Ubertrad!

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Wimsey (Jan 28, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> There's that Mayflower referred to again.
> 
> What exactly is the significance of Mayflower ancestry? Plymouth colony was only one of many settlements, and not even the first, to follow after Jamestown.


When not dressed formally in shoes and hats with buckles, the pilgrims wore sack suits and buttondown shirts bought at Brooks Brethren (as it was then known). The settlers at Jamestown, as everyone will recall from history, wore closely tailored suits with a nipped waist, pointed collar shirts, pleated trousers, and brown italian basket-weave loafers. They learned about tassel mocs and casual Fridays from the Indians.

[)]


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wimsey_
> When not dressed formally in shoes and hats with buckles, the pilgrims wore sack suits and buttondown shirts bought at Brooks Brethren (as it was then known). The settlers at Jamestown, as everyone will recall from history, wore closely tailored suits with a nipped waist, pointed collar shirts, pleated trousers, and brown italian basket-weave loafers. They learned about tassel mocs and casual Fridays from the Indians.
> [)]


That was pretty funny.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by sunnisalafi_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that was inspired, and inspring in turn.
*
You might be trad if . . .*

. . . a significant portion of your wardrobe consists of items purchased at "Brooks Brethren" or "Ye Olde J. Presse."

. . . you own and wear more than one pair of tassel loafers and/or Italian basketweave loafers.

. . . you have a distinct predilection for Allen Edmonds and Alden shell cordovan, and own own more than one pair of either/both.

. . . you disdain casual Fridays and take them as evidence of the increasing moral turpitude in our society.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

You might be trad if:

...your gf's brother buys the beers after he beats you at squash.

Cheers


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by young guy_
> 
> You might be trad if:
> 
> ...


Brilliant.
Trad significant others are always involved with each others' families. Socializing with the family even when the S.O. isn't there does seem like a trademark.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> . . . you were the one who wrote CROATOAN


. . . you understand this reference without help from Google.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

You might be trad if:

...you went to both tennis _and_ squash camp, the result being you never really excelled at either

...you secretly preferred the upper-class Brit Higgins over the sloppy upstart Magnum

...the original 'Sylkoil' waterproofing formula that you use on your Barbour jackets doubles as hair cream


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

. . . you or anybody in your family ever had Thanksgiving dinner catered at the country club.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

Apropos of this thread:

. . . you've never worn a spouting whale _anything_ -- such stuff makes you cringe.

. . . you consider topsiders functional shoes and are vaguely baffled by people who don't sail wearing them as a fashion statement (if you ever even notice).

. . . you grew up with Harris tweed as staples of your wardrobe.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I must confess that during the couple of brief glances I offered to the "preppy" handbook years ago, I was a tad disappointed to learn that there was no mention of Eljo's, The Andover Shop, or Max's Men's Store. When I saw that they had bothered to suggest Jos. A. Bank and Paul Stuart instead, I just handed the thing back (with a wee bit of disgust) to its owner. Oh well.
> Cheers,
> Harris


It's been a long time since I read the book, but I could swear it did mention the Andover Shop.

As to being trad, if it comes down to it, I suppose I can play with the best of them. Am I trad if I grew up spending the summers at tennis camp, attended prep school and a private liberal arts college, have ancestors who fought in the American Revolution and others who fought for the Confederacy and a wife who's a member of the Mayflower Society, the DAR and the Junior League?


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Bradford_
> Am I trad if I grew up spending the summers at tennis camp, attended prep school and a private liberal arts college, have ancestors who fought in the American Revolution and others who fought for the Confederacy and a wife who's a member of the Mayflower Society, the DAR and the Junior League?


Not necessarily, none of the thing you mention automatically make you trad. For more insight into trad as defined on this forum, may I suggest reading the 18 page (or so) long trad thread.
Cheers


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

Wow - shot down by the trad police!

Apparently the trad pedigree is not enough - to be truly trad you must bow to the power of the sack suit, worship the grosgrain ribbon watch band and grovel at a pair of Church's captoes.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This very topic is being hotly debated (again) in the "Trad vs. Preppy" thread.


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

Aaahh!
The Nature vs. Nurture debate.

If ancestory determines one's tradliness, consider me quintessentially untrad.

But, I do sincerely love sack suits, narrow ties, oxford bds, Nantucket Reds, madras, grosgrain, gray flannels, wide wale cords, ect.

Whatever that makes me, I'm fine with it. 
Call me a trad, a preppy, a poser, an imposter, whatever floats your boat.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Early Miles is more Trad than current George W.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

*You might be trad if . . .*

. . . you are somehow related to a US senator past or present.

. . . you're not, but with the way you dress, people might think you are.

. . . you shop for value and timeless style in clothes because you have better things to spend your money on than So-And-So's new [insert season here] collection.

I don't think that Trad belongs exclusively to one social stratum or geographical region, though I would say it's certainly typical of one.

Until recently, I'd never heard of the term "trad," and hadn't the vaguest notion what it meant. As I learned more about what it connoted, thanks largely to Harris' posts and some kindly and lovingly archived threads, I realized that I'd grown up steeped in it. It occurred to me that many people are Trad by default without ever realizing it or feeling any compulsion to give the style a name. These people would get a chuckle out of the heated debate on this and other threads and wonder why those young whippersnappers have nothing better to do with their time than endlessly parse the grammar of clothes.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by sunnisalafi_
> 
> Aaahh!
> The Nature vs. Nurture debate.
> ...


Well said; a short manifesto.
DD


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Genealogy run amuck...*



Nantucket Red said:


> *You might be trad if . . .*
> 
> . . . you can trace your ancestry back more than three generations.
> 
> ...


How did I ever miss this marvelous thread?

According to Nantucket Red's definition, I'm the traddest one here!

How does Swedish Royalty from the thirteenth century grab you?

Abe Lincoln's in the pedigree to boot!

are a few generations for your entertainment and amusement...

Ethel Garner, my mother's father's mother, is the one who is descended from John Moses Browning, who was father to the famous gunsmith, and also the man Abraham Lincoln nicknamed "Judge". The two men used to spend time together before Honest Abe ran for political office and Browning joined the Mormons in Nauvoo.

Ethel Garner was Abraham Lincoln's eighth cousin three times removed.
*Abraham Lincoln*
(8th cousin 3 times removed)Common Ancestor(s):
R. LINCOLN(1525,England)
If you go to the web page, you can find all manner of crazy stuff.
One of the groups I've created can be accessed via the page.
The group name is: Emily_Hermana_Pihl
and the password is: trad

Couldn't get my computer to log in this way, but it's supposed to work so let me know if any of you get in.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Nantucket Red said:


> . . . you or anybody in your family ever had Thanksgiving dinner catered at the country club.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
> - French proverb


Never had Thanksgiving at the country club, but we have ours at a Sportsman's Club....dining amongst the deer, pheasants and ducks on the walls. Hopefully one of the men in the family has been lucky enough to bag a turkey or two by then, so we don't have to have a store bought one (I only remember a few years that this was the case). Pheasant and quail also make nice additions to our table. Our family has grown so large we had to find somewhere else to go besides relative's homes. We go to the country club for Christmas.
Any other wingshooters out there? This gives me a new thread idea...


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Maybe?*

The madder ascot you inherited sometimes appears in your breast pocket in lieu of a pocket square. You love the pattern of the silk, but can't see yourself wearing an ascot in public...


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