# Fork Etiquette?



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I have an ongoing dispute with my wife and her son about the proper fork to use when eating fish. It is my contention that if a dedicated fish fork is not available, the correct, most genteel fork to use is a lighter "salad" fork. They prefer to use our largest heaviest forks, such as I would use for tucking into a slab of beef. I find this, if not outright uncouth, definitely subpar.

My wife defended this on the grounds her late mother favored the heavy forks for fish. "And she knew more about such things than you," my stepson chimed in. "I'm not so sure about that!" I replied.

Anyway, will some gentlemen or ladies of exquisite taste, manners and refinement weigh in on this? I realize that the ideal would be to have proper fish forks, but, faute de mieux, who is being more genteel--my wife and her son or I?


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## ccffm1 (Jul 31, 2005)

Dear Dr. Libourel,


while I don´t know whether I qualify as a person of the attributes you are asking for, I can relate to a similar discussion I had with my girlfriend lately. We could agree on using lighter cutlery with a rather blunt edge to approximate the function of a fish fork or fish knife, which is used to part the fish rather than cutting it, applying slight vertical force. Please note that this would only work with fish with a softer flesh or one that has to be cooked longer, which is rarely the case in today´s cuisine. The flesh of a monkfish for example is quite compact. Therefore a sharper knife would be perfectly appropriate.
As far as I know fish forks came into existence because in former times knifes were made of iron, affecting the taste of fish, potatoes, asparagus and eggs, whereas fish knife and fork were made of silver.
So which knife would be best strongly depends on the kind of fish you are going to serve and its cooking time.
Fish is rather a light dish, which is exactly why you would refrain from pouring a wine that is too full, rich and overwhelming in comparison. In order not to disturb this prevailing atmosphere of lightness, I guess a heavy steak knife would not be consitent with it.
I hope this helps.

Best regards

ccffm1


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> I have an ongoing dispute with my wife and her son about the proper fork to use when eating fish. It is my contention that if a dedicated fish fork is not available, the correct, most genteel fork to use is a lighter "salad" fork. They prefer to use our largest heaviest forks, such as I would use for tucking into a slab of beef. I find this, if not outright uncouth, definitely subpar.
> 
> My wife defended this on the grounds her late mother favored the heavy forks for fish. "And she knew more about such things than you," my stepson chimed in. "I'm not so sure about that!" I replied.
> 
> Anyway, will some gentlemen or ladies of exquisite taste, manners and refinement weigh in on this? I realize that the ideal would be to have proper fish forks, but, faute de mieux, who is being more genteel--my wife and her son or I?


You are, of course. If one does not have the perfect fork, then one uses the most similar fork that is available. A fish fork and salad fork are very similar.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

The dinner fork is the correct one to use, not the salad fork. Fish is often served without salad. A basic 3-untensil set would have a dinner fork, knife, and spoon.

Trivia question: What is the the proper name for the the prongs on a fork? :icon_smile_big:

M8


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

There is nothing genteel about eating smelly beasts that dine amid their own waste, and mollusks are even worse, so who are we kidding? We were at the fishmonger yesterday and it's bloody, slimey, smelly, savage work not for the faint of heart! Which fork? A harpoon, I say! Haaarrrr, matey!


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## StevenRocks (May 24, 2005)

In the absense of a full silver service, one can use the place fork with fish (or any main dish). Using the salad fork isn't inappropriate, but it's a matter of personal taste.

This is a great forum. I can use my flatware knowledge for good instead of evil. 



Martinis at 8 said:


> Trivia question: What is the the proper name for the the prongs on a fork? :icon_smile_big:


Tines. :icon_smile:


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Martinis at 8 said:


> The dinner fork is the correct one to use, not the salad fork. Fish is often served without salad. A basic 3-untensil set would have a dinner fork, knife, and spoon.
> 
> Trivia question: What is the the proper name for the the prongs on a fork? :icon_smile_big:
> 
> M8


You only use one fork?


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

crs said:


> There is nothing genteel about eating smelly beasts that dine amid their own waste, and mollusks are even worse, so who are we kidding? We were at the fishmonger yesterday and it's bloody, slimey, smelly, savage work not for the faint of heart! Which fork? A harpoon, I say! Haaarrrr, matey!


As a vegetarian, I tend to agree with the first part.


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## Spooter (Jul 15, 2006)

Martinis at 8 said:


> The dinner fork is the correct one to use, not the salad fork. Fish is often served without salad. A basic 3-untensil set would have a dinner fork, knife, and spoon.
> 
> Trivia question: What is the the proper name for the the prongs on a fork? :icon_smile_big:
> 
> M8


tines. Now I'll raise you a trivia question: where is the most traditional and proper place on a piece of silverware to put the monogram, should you go in for those sorts of things.

By the way, years ago Tiffany had a little booklet that they issued to young brides-to-be that instructed them in all the proper silverware purchases. Including lunch and dinner forks, knifes, etc.:teacha:

As for fish forks, they're a Victorian invention so far as I know. Claim ignorance of them, because naturally your silver is Georgian.:icon_cheers:

Cordially,

Spooter


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Spooter said:


> tines. Now I'll raise you a trivia question: where is the most traditional and proper place on a piece of silverware to put the monogram, should you go in for those sorts of things.
> ...


Right: tines!

Monograms should go on the back of silverware since there is room, in Europe the back of forks is usually up on the table for the place settings and even if it isn't, the back is up when you use the fork.

And I do "go in for those sorts of things"!!

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/Lifestyle/proper_table_manners.htm


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Andy said:


> Right: tines!
> 
> Monograms should go on the back of silverware since there is room, in Europe the back of forks is usually up on the table for the place settings and even if it isn't, the back is up when you use the fork.
> 
> ...


Very good Andy!

In an effort to make a gentleman out me, when I was at West Point, I had to learn these silly things. While I did graduate, you can see from my posts that they failed in their mission to make a gentleman out of me.

I shoulda' gone to VMI! :icon_smile_big:

Cheers,

M8


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## Spooter (Jul 15, 2006)

Andy said:


> Right: tines!
> 
> Monograms should go on the back of silverware since there is room, in Europe the back of forks is usually up on the table for the place settings and even if it isn't, the back is up when you use the fork.
> 
> ...


That's right Andy, one the backs! :icon_smile_big: And yes, the back is up on place settings in many European and English old place settings!:icon_cheers: :teacha:


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## Droog (Aug 29, 2006)

As a fish fork is typically an in-between size, I'd say it depends on your silverware. For example, the salad forks in our silverware set are on the small side and would not work well for fish. In my case, I would use the same type of fork I would provide for the main.


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## tabasco (Jul 17, 2006)

*OK, which is the back?*

One of my 3 sets of family silver (gosh, it's good to be the eldest son), has the family monogram on the reverse, as noted above (the other 2 sets have no monogram). The knife of the set has a monogram on one side....so what is the BACK of the knife? or in other words, when setting the table, which way does the blade face?

Hmmm, the emancipation of women has had some odd effects, non? or, are we become butlers?

amazing place, this.

Michael


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

tabasco said:


> The knife of the set has a monogram on one side....so what is the BACK of the knife? or in other words, when setting the table, which way does the blade face?


The blade always faces inward toward the plate.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Spooter said:


> As for fish forks, they're a Victorian invention so far as I know. Claim ignorance of them, because naturally your silver is Georgian.


Spooter is right that there is a school of thought that denounces separate fish knives and forks and views them as a bourgeois invention.

However, if you have fish knives and don't have the forks, I would just use ordinary dinner forks.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

JL: There are a couple of appropriate answers to your initial inquiry. 

Response #1 is that you should use whichever fork your hostess provides.

Response #2 is that it depends on how and when the fish is being served. If it is as a first or introductory course, a salad-type fork might suffice; if it is served as the main dish, a dinner fork would be appropriate.

Response #3 is that no matter the merits of one's arguments, arguing with one's spouse (and her son) is a losing proposition.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

tabasco said:


> ... or in other words, when setting the table, which way does the blade face?


Michael (tabasco):

As medwards says, always facing in, toward the plate.

In the Table Manners article I have:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/Lifestyle/proper_table_manners.htm
_The first and only utensil was the dagger, that same threatening symbol of violence that you carried with you for defense! The prevention of violence was one of the principal aims of table manners. So there are some serious restrictions regarding knives at the table. The knife is never pointed at anyone._

_A blade pointed outward is a sign that you wish the person across from you harm!! Richelieu was responsible for the rounding off of the points on table knife blades in 1669 France in order to prevent further dinnertime bloodshed._ ​


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## tasteful one (Oct 6, 2006)

*And the correct answer is....*

..in the absence of a specialized 'fish fork' one should use the smallest fork on the table. Your wife and son sound like they've been dining at the McDonald's too long...


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Before WW1, most people in America ate with a spoon only. Anyone know why?

M8


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Forks were considered a European affectation?


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## Spooter (Jul 15, 2006)

Martinis at 8 said:


> Before WW1, most people in America ate with a spoon only. Anyone know why?
> 
> M8


Bourgeois affectation?
:idea::icon_smile_wink: :icon_smile_big:


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Most meals were served in bowls.

Stew, porridge, etc. The multicourse meals we see today, back then were only for the rich. Meats and vegetables were cut up and put into stews, and seldom was a steak offerred on a plate. Things of course changed after WW1.

M8


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## wannaB1L (Jul 30, 2006)

tasteful one said:


> ..in the absence of a specialized 'fish fork' one should use the smallest fork on the table. Your wife and son sound like they've been dining at the McDonald's too long...


Doesn't a big dinner fork seem like a bit much for such a delicacy? Fish is generally light, flaky and tender. But to each her own. If she wants to use a dinner fork and steak knife with fish, hold your tongue and pour yourself a second as a reward.

Also because her mother 'knew' more than you about 'such' things does not mean that you are incorrect about the forks. This is a fallacy of logic. The flawed reasoning parrellels "I know about world geography, so I know more about Malta than you."


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## Prepdad (Mar 10, 2005)

Perhaps a bit of a compromise is in order (as I, too, have given up arguing with women since it seldom does any good anyway). A luncheon fork is often available in many patterns and is decidedly lighter than the dinner version but generally shaped the same albeit on a smaller scale. Ergo, you get the lighter weight, she gets the essential shape and the step-son perhaps gets a withering glance from the stepfather that discourages further correction.


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