# The J. Press shoulder



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Here goes the broken record: I think this year's Southwick-made suit jackets feature the same natural, sloping shoulder I've seen and worn in years past. Maybe a wee bit of "padding," but not much. It's basically the Douglas shoulder. And since there's a case to be made that a completely padless shoulder can (ironically) lack a natural slope because of the construction of the shoulder and/or sleeve, I'm not yet convinced that zero padding always results in the sloping, natural shoulder that comes to mind when we think of the Ivy-era shoulder. manton's superb post (way back in '06) that featured all that jazz about "spalla camicia" and "con rollino" and such and such said it all.

I'm guessing most of the complaints about the Press shoulder--as in "too much"--have to do with the Pressclusive jackets. Perhaps especially the ones made in Canada. This is just a guess.

So my hope is that this thread provides an opportunity to anybody who's willing to offer a compare-contrast, especially in light of a recent post suggesting that we would see an improvement in the shoulder (softer, more natural) this year. Another poster has written that a recent inspection of one of this year's madras sportcoats reveals little or no improvement. Okay, fine. But I'd like to hear from others who are willing to contribute. At least the folks at Press are making an effort, right?


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## JohnMS (Feb 18, 2004)

I have a Press blazer coming something this month after the alterations are made. I can compare it if you like to the Brooks version when it comes with photos and all if that will help.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I think it would be helpful. Thanks.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

I don't pay a lot of attention to the nuance among the various models, but these photos might be helpful...

I purchased the three coats below at this winter's season ending sale. The first two are made in Canada and are the "Plymouth" model. I don't know if they are Presstige, Pressclusive, etc. as there are no labels inside differentiating one way or the other. While the second coat is the exact same model, it seems like it may have a bit more padding to the shoulders.



















The third is identified as Presstige. It is "tailored in USA"; no specific model name is available.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Good thread and posts. I love those jackets of Sartes.

I think the trouble with finding the perfect natural shoulder is that everyone's shoulders are different. Not just in width, but in slope, angle forward, and many other subtle aspects. Add to that the width of the arm hole that varies for everyone, which can make a shoulder line look too wide.

For Tom Rath, no padding looks great. For myself, I agree with Harris that a little padding or reinforcement works best. Some of the vintage Brooks with no padding that I have bought feel a little tight around the deltoid. For me, the Douglas is as perfect as I have found (until I can get to Chipp2 and order to full "Tom Rath" custom fitted).


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## BillinStL (May 6, 2006)

*re: the J Press shoulder*

I have read the many posts on this topic. In my experience, I believe the variance in shoulder padding is more attributable to Press' different makers than to different seasons.

I have three older Southwick-made Press jackets, and I could not discern a difference between them and the Southwick made garments that appeared to be new this season that I saw in the DC store last month.

The Canadian garments have always seemed more padded to me.

No one in St Louis stocks Southwick, so I cannot compare a Southwick Douglas with the Press offering.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

I think the most important thing to consider when buying clothes is the shape of your body. For me, an unpadded shoulder is essential. My deltoids are very pronounced, meaning there is alot of shoulder muscle that juts outside of my shoulder "point". because of that, any padding on or around the shoulder gives me a very unnaturally broad look. So, when I have my coats made, I get the shoulder seam to hit right at my shoulder points. My shoulder muscles then fill out the area at the top of the sleeve head. I like the effect, although some of the sticklers on the site would probably think my coats are a bit snug through the shoulders. I like my coats to hold snugly against my shoulders, and look as clean as possible. Any padding would just emphasize my shoulders more than my body already does.

Im fully aware that others need that shoulder padding to make up for what isnt there naturally. Such is life. I do think a coat shoulder can look natural with some padding. Why some padded shoulders still look natural while others do not is something I cant answer. I dont know enough about coat construction.

Ive looked at some recent Press coats, I dont notice any difference from past years, but perhaps there is. I have bigger issues with Press, and thats the general mediocrity of their tailored clothes.

Here is a photo of how I like my coats to fit. You can see my shoulder muscles filling the area at the top of the sleevehead. Any padding would look silly on me. Perhaps if my shoulder points were closer to the edge of my shoulder some padding would look good, I dont know:


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Since you've asked, I rediscovered Press a few years ago, and began collecting their catalogs, and visiting them on-line. And while it is only from those sources, it appeared to me that in the last couple of seasons, they've noticeably widened and hardened their shoulder line. This can be seen in the middle photo, where the jacket takes an abrupt turn from the arm to reach the shoulder. While it's a very nice jacket, that's not my preference, and I don't care for this type of shoulder.

They're not alone, excepting the sack, BB's style has long followed this trend, and a couple of years ago, Ben Silver's (Nick Hilton?) jackets did likewise. From too many years of experience, almost all purveyors of men's tailored clothing eventually modify their house cut to compromise toward prevailing norms. That's how we've been stuck with straight leg trouser as supposedly traditional tailoring for about 35 years, when it was arrived at as a compromise between the fashionable bell bottom, and the true tradition of a full cut tapered slack.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Just visited their site again. Not just wider, harder shoulders, but designer stubble! Good heavens! Perhaps that's what happens if you stock your marketing ranks with 20 something design school grads, rather than those who understand traditional clothing.


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## jrleague (May 12, 2004)

Tom Rath said:


> I think the most important thing to consider when buying clothes is the shape of your body. For me, an unpadded shoulder is essential. My deltoids are very pronounced, meaning there is alot of shoulder muscle that juts outside of my shoulder "point". because of that, any padding on or around the shoulder gives me a very unnaturally broad look. So, when I have my coats made, I get the shoulder seam to hit right at my shoulder points. My shoulder muscles then fill out the area at the top of the sleeve head. I like the effect, although some of the sticklers on the site would probably think my coats are a bit snug through the shoulders. I like my coats to hold snugly against my shoulders, and look as clean as possible. Any padding would just emphasize my shoulders more than my body already does.
> 
> Im fully aware that others need that shoulder padding to make up for what isnt there naturally. Such is life. I do think a coat shoulder can look natural with some padding. Why some padded shoulders still look natural while others do not is something I cant answer. I dont know enough about coat construction.
> 
> ...


I love the cut and button stance of your jacket. If you don't mind my asking, who is making these jackets for you?


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## mdellison (Sep 24, 2005)

Isn't Tom Rath's picture reversed? Or was it made with the chest pocket on the right?


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

That left sleeve looks a bit... odd to me.

I've got broad and squared shoulders relative to my skinny head and neck, so I sympathize with the fit, too.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

jr league - the coat pictured was made at Winston Tailors in NYC. Button stance is a 6 inch spacing, with the bottom button in line with the top of the side pockets. 

mdellison - I took the pic with the camera in my Mac computer, it reverses the image. 

pedantic - it might look odd to you because the coat is made from a very loose weave shetland, and I wear it to death. The result is alot of bagginess around the back of the elbows. It may also look odd to you because you can see how absurdly long my arms are in relation to my body.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Harris, I've just ordered the seersucker jacket and will be able to compare it with a chambray from 2 years ago. I believe Tucker has madras jackets from this year and last. 

The padding in the Chambray is substantial. Press could have improved on it quite a bit and still not satisfied some. I agree with you about Southwick. Their shoulders are good enough for me.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

Harris said:


> I think this year's Southwick-made suit jackets feature the same natural, sloping shoulder I've seen and worn in years past


Clarifying question: How does one know which Press jackets are made by Southwick? Is there a label inside the jacket?

Thanks,
tjs


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## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

Sartre said:


> Clarifying question: How does one know which Press jackets are made by Southwick? Is there a label inside the jacket?
> 
> Thanks,
> tjs


Near or on the collar of the coat there'll be a label that says:
Cohen: Made in/fabrique au Canada
Southwick: Tailored in the USA
HSM: Cleaning instructions & made in USA in yellow on black


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

*Natural shoulders*

if you want natural shoulders RTW, go with Polo RL. Nothing else comes close, unless you are willing to spend the big bucks to go for bespoke.

The brownwatch jpress jacket *does* have very soft shoulders. almost perfect. it's atypical though.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Harris said:


> I'm guessing most of the complaints about the Press shoulder--as in "too much"--have to do with the Pressclusive jackets. Perhaps especially the ones made in Canada. This is just a guess.


I think this is a correct hypothesis. I bought two Pressclusive jackets recently (both say "Made in Canada") and they both have pretty angular shoulders.

Personally , I don't think it's the amount of padding, just the cut. A shoulder has to have more of a radius to look right. My jackets are fairly lightly padded, but set high on my shoulder points.

But for those of us who don't have access to Winston, either geographically or financially, what are we to do? Is Southwick MTM (the Douglas Model) the only answer?

Scott


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

You can rely on Southwick Douglas (the cheaper option), Samuelson, or Ralph Lauren (Grant model for a sack) for a natural shoulder.


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## neyus (Jan 12, 2005)

Untilted said:


> You can rely on Southwick Douglas (the cheaper option), Samuelson, or Ralph Lauren (Grant model for a sack) for a natural shoulder.


Im really interested in a sack by Ralph Lauren. Because of all the makers I've seen they make the best shoulders. Is Grant a current model? Where I can purchase the aforementioned?


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Naval Gent said:


> But for those of us who don't have access to Winston, either geographically or financially, what are we to do? Is Southwick MTM (the Douglas Model) the only answer?


Scott, Brooks Select is also Southwick MTM, but a little different than Douglas. I've been happy with MTM Southwick, but it's really not an option for cotton jackets. Way too expensive. For cotton jackets my only answer is to take what I can get from Press and try not worry about it.

Brooks still carries a Southwick made sack blazer. It's a great buy on sale. And easy to find on ebay. I hope that Southwick still makes the Brooks camel hair jacket. I'll be investigating that in the fall. And I think Southwick still makes the Brooks poplin sack.

O'Connells stocks H. Freeman sack suits (they only carry Southwick sportcoats for some reason). I can't speak with any authority on these, but they may be worth a try.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Random thoughts:



LongWing said:


> ...my only answer is to take what I can get from Press and try not worry about it.


The Pressclusive is still more desirable than anything I can source locally. I'm afraid this kind of thread leads to the youngsters thinking that Press makes a crappy product that should be avoided. I don't think that's true at all. The Pressclusive jackets are just not IDEAL.

My next blazer will probably be that BB sack (if they don't stop making it - usually my luck). I have a Brooksease (Correction, Brooks*COOL*) poplin suit, and the shoulders aren't very much better than the Pressclusive jackets. It says made in Taiwan on the label.

And, I forgot about O'Connells. I bought a suit from them last winter. Acceptable in every way.

Where do you find this good PRL stuff? Out here in the Provinces all we see if the cheap outlet stuff that teenagers wear. Last time I looked at the RL web site, it was very off-putting with stupid combinations, rolled up sleeves and pant legs, unbuttoned buttons. etc, etc.

I think the bottom line is that if you want natural shoulders, you're going to have to pay...

Scott


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

So I guess the question is how the made in Canada stuff from years past compares with the current stock. Yes, it would be great if they featured something resembling a Southwick Douglas or H. Freeman Naturalaire shoulder. If so, then we can offer words of praise to whomever (at Press) is responsible for the change. 

It's funny how, when you wear a suit five days a week, you become convinced that you can never have enough. Of course I may be speaking only for myself.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Not to split hairs, but I think the lower lines used to be made by Hartz in Frederick, Maryland, not Canada. Hartz also did some of the Brooks jackets. Perhaps Cohen was making jackets for Press before also, but I thought the perceived shift in shoulder padding was partly due to the change in manufacturers.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

neyus said:


> Im really interested in a sack by Ralph Lauren. Because of all the makers I've seen they make the best shoulders. Is Grant a current model? Where I can purchase the aforementioned?


Grant is a current model.



Naval Gent said:


> Random thoughts:
> Where do you find this good PRL stuff? Out here in the Provinces all we see if the cheap outlet stuff that teenagers wear. Last time I looked at the RL web site, it was very off-putting with stupid combinations, rolled up sleeves and pant legs, unbuttoned buttons. etc, etc.
> 
> I think the bottom line is that if you want natural shoulders, you're going to have to pay...
> ...


1. this good PRL stuff isn't online. nor is it in outlet stores/department stores usually. you need to go to a Ralph Lauren boutique store or go to a good men's store that does Polo MTM/OTR (im sure Wm King does). You'll be amazed by the suits once you step into the store. One option is Style Forum Buying and Selling forum, where people sell $1200+ NWT Polo suits and sportcoats at $200-$400 pretty frequently

2. you are right about having the pay...  My only RL coat comes from Style Forum.


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## Tucker (Apr 17, 2006)

Naval Gent said:


> Personally , I don't think it's the amount of padding, just the cut. A shoulder has to have more of a radius to look right. My jackets are fairly lightly padded, but set high on my shoulder points.


LongWing mentioned that I have the Press madras jackets from SS07 and SS08. Both were made by Cohen (Plymouth model) and have the exact same measurements. My uncalibrated thumb and forefinger show the more recent jacket to have slightly less padding than that of last year. As Scott mentioned, there's no radius to the shoulder of this model. The reduced padding makes only a slight difference in appearance. My Presstige suits have about the same amount of padding as the current Cohen madras, but a better slope to the shoulder.


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## Zot! (Feb 18, 2008)

Untilted said:


> Grant is a current model.


Can you post a link to this model on the website? All I can find is an "Anthony" model.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Desk Jockey said:


> Near or on the collar of the coat there'll be a label that says:
> Cohen: Made in/fabrique au Canada
> Southwick: Tailored in the USA
> HSM: Cleaning instructions & made in USA in yellow on black


Interesting. I have a Hartmarx Pressidential which has a fairly angular should er as well, so probably we shouldnt just blame Canada.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

Zot! said:


> Can you post a link to this model on the website? All I can find is an "Anthony" model.


the first thing about polo is never use the website, besides small purchases.

80% of stuff on the website is JUNK.

you need to go to the Polo store or a good men's store (not department stores/outlets) to see (and try on) the Italy-made corneliani suits and sport coats. Go to the nearest store, ask the salesperson for the swatch book as well as the book that has all the model's specifications. Polo offers 10+ models just for jackets, and like 4 models for trousers.

Grant is: natural shoulders, undarted, dual vented, three OPEN patch pockets, 3 buttons rolled to 2.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

jpress used to make a decent shoulders...

example 1:


example 2:


miles better than the stuff we see now IMO. could be worse though...


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

I posted this in the "Quick Questions" thread, but got no reply. It may do better in the proper thread, so...

I'm looking at buying a new herringbone tweed jacket for the fall and, while perusing the Press sale, found this jacket in the Sale section:

https://www.jpressonline.com/sale_spo...etail.php?ix=7

Anyone own this model and care to give me some feedback? I'm particularly curious at how the shoulders fit (I know there's been some whining about it before) and how "sackly" it is. Press sacks seem to appear boxier than BB but, then again, I only own BB sack jackets so pictures are my only basis for comparison.

Thanks, guys.


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## david809 (Jul 1, 2003)

Untilted said:


> Grant is: natural shoulders, undarted, dual vented, three OPEN patch pockets, 3 buttons rolled to 2.


Not so. I ordered the Grant last year and it has front darts. The picture in the model book is deceptive.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

TradTeacher said:


> I'm looking at buying a new herringbone tweed jacket for the fall and, while perusing the Press sale, found this jacket in the Sale section:
> 
> https://www.jpressonline.com/sale_spo...etail.php?ix=7


TT, I don't have the jacket, but if its a circa 2007 Pressclusive, I'd say it's fairly shouldery. Especially if it's a Cohen. (I have a couple) I'd call a Press store and ask. If they won't tell you WHO made it, ask if it has a "Made in Canada " label in it.

The olive color would do quite well in my closet, shouldery or not. But I'm holding off for a Southwick MTM. Self-denial now for reward later.

Scott


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

Naval Gent said:


> TT, I don't have the jacket, but if its a circa 2007 Pressclusive, I'd say it's fairly shouldery. Especially if it's a Cohen. (I have a couple) I'd call a Press store and ask. If they won't tell you WHO made it, ask if it has a "Made in Canada " label in it.
> 
> The olive color would do quite well in my closet, shouldery or not. But I'm holding off for a Southwick MTM. Self-denial now for reward later.
> 
> Scott


Thanks, Scott, I"ll do that this afternoon. I have a feeling I know what they'll tell me...

I agree w/ you about the color--it's a great mix of olive & brown. I'm waiting to see what Polo, BB and Press have to offer up this fall. If I'm underwhelmed, I'll go MTM. Scott, have you ever wondered if John H. Daniel in the Old City could do a MTM sack? I've been pondering it lately...


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

TradTeacher said:


> Scott, have you ever wondered if John H. Daniel in the Old City could do a MTM sack? I've been pondering it lately...


Just so happens that I can answer that question. This Spring I took a chance and had them make me up a summer jacket in a very nice wool/silk herringbone. I like it pretty well except for the button stance, which is a little low and close compared to Press and BB. I suspect the button stance is something they could not fiddle with (but I haven't asked)

My conclusion is that with the exception of of their "two-for-one" sale after Christmas, you are better off paying $100 more for a MTM Southwick Douglas. That's what I'm going to try next.

Ever used Coachman Clothiers?

Scott


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

No--do they offer Southwick MTM? I'm sure M.S. McClellan does. 

What does a Southwick MTM go for? $600? More?


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

TradTeacher said:


> What does a Southwick MTM go for? $600? More?


Coachman told me a MTM Southwick tweed jacket would be "*about $750*" over the telephone. *I'd love to get a reading on that from folks who have ordered one recently.* They said they would get their fall books in mid August, so I'm in no hurry. I'll also pulse McClellan's before I order. They're closer, and you get all that free attitude. BTW, a BB MTM in a soft checked fabric I pointed out just this week was priced to me at $850. That's getting pretty rich for this ole boy. (But this project intends to replace a particular favorite jacket that doesn't fit me anymore)

Scott


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

TradTeacher said:


> I posted this in the "Quick Questions" thread, but got no reply. It may do better in the proper thread, so...
> 
> I'm looking at buying a new herringbone tweed jacket for the fall and, while perusing the Press sale, found this jacket in the Sale section:
> 
> ...


TT, You might want to give Press a call. I checked with them about the gray herringbone about a month ago only to find that their available sizes are inacurate. I spoke with David Wilder first. He told me to check with the New Haven store where these are now located.

Good luck,
lw


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Naval Gent said:


> Coachman told me a MTM Southwick tweed jacket would be "*about $750*" over the telephone. *I'd love to get a reading on that from folks who have ordered one recently.* They said they would get their fall books in mid August, so I'm in no hurry. I'll also pulse McClellan's before I order. They're closer, and you get all that free attitude. BTW, a BB MTM in a soft checked fabric I pointed out just this week was priced to me at $850. That's getting pretty rich for this ole boy. (But this project intends to replace a particular favorite jacket that doesn't fit me anymore)
> 
> Scott


Scott, If you already know your size, you might check with O'Connells. They usually have a trunk show each season complete with percentage discount. I have done Southwick MTO with good luck. Never had mods for specific measurements, however I wear XL jacket with regular rise trousers. A little strange, but that's me.

lw


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## randomdude (Jun 4, 2007)

Naval Gent said:


> TT, I don't have the jacket, but if its a circa 2007 Pressclusive, I'd say it's fairly shouldery. Especially if it's a Cohen. (I have a couple) I'd call a Press store and ask. If they won't tell you WHO made it, ask if it has a "Made in Canada " label in it.
> 
> The olive color would do quite well in my closet, shouldery or not. But I'm holding off for a Southwick MTM. Self-denial now for reward later.
> 
> Scott


I have this jacket in gray. It is shouldery. And it is Made in Canada.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

david809 said:


> Not so. I ordered the Grant last year and it has front darts. The picture in the model book is deceptive.


the polo salesman lied to me then...


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## TradTeacher (Aug 25, 2006)

I called yesterday (three stores) and, while they do have the jacket I linked, they confirmed that it is Made in Canada. Feedback seems to be that it is quite "shouldery" and, for the $$$, not as nice as I could get by either waiting until Fall pieces arrive or going MTM. As such, I'll watch and wait. Thanks, boys...


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## JordanW (Jan 8, 2007)

The Canadian shoulder...



For reference this is the Parker model.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

^ I hate to confuse the matter, but there is more than one "Canadian shoulder" from Press. My own range from relatively soft/natural all the way through to Brian Urlacher-like. The only solution is to try them on.

Case in point -- I was at the NY J Press for the sale and purchased a Made in Canada jacket. Great shoulders. Then tried on a terrific madras jacket (they have many things in the store that are not available on their website) and the shoulders looked patently ridiculous. Also a Canadian garment. I'll have to start getting more sophisticated in how to deconstruct the labeling...

tjs


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## JordanW (Jan 8, 2007)

Sartre said:


> Then tried on a terrific madras jacket (they have many things in the store that are not available on their website) and the shoulders looked patently ridiculous. Also a Canadian garment.


Thank you Sartre
. Do you recall the model?


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

JordanW said:


> The Canadian shoulder...
> 
> For reference this is the Parker model.


Looks good to me.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

Jordan, i recommend you get some waist suppression. just a bit.


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## JordanW (Jan 8, 2007)

Untilted said:


> Jordan, i recommend you get some waist suppression. just a bit.


Thanks Tilt. That's in the plan. I have already discussed competent tailor options in the Atlanta area with Tucker and I think I have found one that I can trust for the job.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

JordanW said:


> Thank you Sartre
> . Do you recall the model?


Sorry I do not.


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