# Neapolitan Shoulder Explained



## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

This topic generates a lot of confusion, so I thought I would share what I have learned with the members.

What is a Neapolitan shoulder? The tailors of Naples have become famous over the last ten years, in part because the rise in popularity of brands like Kiton. Many writers wax poetic about the famous shoulder/sleevehead. But what do they mean?

There are three things that can distinguish a Naples-made or Naples-inspired coat shoulder. The first is a lack of padding. The second is a pleated sleevehead. And the third is what the Neapolitans call the _spalla camicia_, or â€œshirt shoulder.â€

Now, sometimes this latter is confused with the Neapolitan shoulder. But this is a mistake. The _spalla camicia _is a detail that is a specialty of Neapolitan tailors, but it is not in itself the necessary and sufficient criterion for a Neapolitan shoulder. Some Neapolitan coats are made with it, some arenâ€™t. Some tailors like to do it, some donâ€™t. There is a general beliefâ€"not universally sharedâ€"that the _spalla camicia _is only proper on odd jackets and informal suits.

Before I go on, I ought to make the obligatory caveats that, as everywhere, tailoring in Naples is not monolithic. There are tailors who make a very lean, very clean Roman-style suit. Also, the major brands that sell in the US do not sell classically Neapolitan coats like I am about to describe. The shoulders are too padded, and the sleeveheads too clean to be the soft, natural shoulder for which Neapolitan tailoring has become renown in recent years. Finally, as always, I could be wrong about some of this. I am merely doing my best at presenting what I know, or think I know. I have learned a lot here, and elsewhere, and anything I think I know at any given point is always subject to later revision.

But letâ€™s go through all three criteria. Most Neapolitan coats are characterized by minimal or even zero padding. This in itself is controversial. Many people really hate the look of sloping, rounded shoulders. Some tailors hate to make it because it so hard to fit. Padded shoulders give a coat structure. The tailor can affix a great deal of cloth to the pad and hang the rest therefrom. It solves a lot of thorny problems. Unpadded shoulders have to be measured in increments of 8ths or even 16ths. There is no margin for error.

This is why the true Neapolitan shoulder is almost never seen ready-to-wear. RTW patterns are very exacting. They are developed over time with a great deal of care. They are designed to fit as many men as possible with minimal alterations. We tend to be dismissive of RTW clothing on the forums, and I can see why; it has many, many shortcomings. But some acknowledgement should be made of the complexity and difficulty inherent in designing a RTW pattern that fits men across a range of sizes yet looks similar in silhouette no matter what the size. Itâ€™s harder than we think. Doing that reliably requires a shoulderpad. Which is why Kiton and Borrelli and Isaia and most Neapolitan RTW suits sold in the US (with the exception of La Vera) are padded.

But back to the real thing. There is no pad. There might, or might not, be some wadding at the edge of the sleevehead, on the shoulder side. This depends on the tailor, on his judgment of the clientâ€™s needs, and the clientâ€™s preferences. Either way, the overall effect is most sloped, soft, and rounded.

The second hallmark is the pleated sleevehead. But actually, â€œpleatedâ€ is a slightly misleading term, since â€œpleatâ€ implies a careful and precise folding. But that is not the case with a Neapolitan shoulder. Rather, the upper sleeve is deliberately cut much larger than the (typically very small) armscye. That excess cloth or fullness is then fed into the scye as the sleeve is hand-set into the body of the coat. This CANNOT be done by machine. Sewing machines can efficiently sew two pieces of the cloth together along edges of equal length. This is why even the very best bench tailors typically sew center backseams and the like by machine, even if they sew the rest of the coat almost completely by hand. There is a no way a sewing machine can properly feed in that extra fullness. A while back, Thomas Mahon explained the same concept on his fine blog. He was talking about the fullness in a coatâ€™s back, over the shoulder blades, but the sewing technique and purpose are exactly the same. Hereâ€™s the link:

Now, when the sleeve is completely sewn, that fullness inevitably puckers somewhat. There is more cloth on one side of the seam than on the other. Imagine taking a 6â€ square napkin and a 5â€ square napkin, and sewing them along an edge on each one. There would be more cloth on the 6â€ napkin side. Where does that extra inch go? It sort of puckers or bulges, as in Tomâ€™s photo.

On a shoulder, that puckering can be and is pressed out. The wool is shrunk along the seam to make the seam smooth, leaving the extra fullness over the blades more or less intact. However, for a number of reasons, that is not possible or desirable for a sleevehead. So that extra cloth â€œgathersâ€ and puckers around the scye. This is not done for aesthetics, although the devotees of the style certainly claim it is beautiful. To the unknowing eye, it looks sloppy, like a sign of inferior tailoring. But it most definitely is not. It is not to everyoneâ€™s taste, however, and de gustibus, as the saying goes. Anyway, it is done for comfort and freedom of movement. Classic Neapolitan coats have very small armholes, very close shoulders, and relatively lean bodiesâ€"more roomy than a Roman or Continental coat, but less than traditional Savile Row, and much less than what is typically made in America. The large upper sleeve combined with the tight armhole, draped chest, fullness over the blades, and soft front canvas give the arms a most free range of movement. The coat can be worn all day, in almost any circumstance. The heat might get to you, but you will be able to do whatever it is that you need to do without having to take off your coat. (Within reason.)

Still, as was said, some people donâ€™t like all that puckering. This effect can be toned down if the shoulder seam is â€œpressed open.â€ All seams have what is called a â€œseam allowanceâ€â€"that is, strips of cloth on the inside of the seam. The needle and thread have to go through cloth, after all. You canâ€™t attach two pieces of cloth right at their very edges. So cloth is cut a touch wider along the sewn edge. That excess width is called the â€œseam allowanceâ€ and is typically folded inside the finished garment so that it canâ€™t be seen. When you want the seam to appear flat and almost invisible on the outside, the seam is â€œpressed openâ€ on the inside.

What does that mean? A shoulder seam, like many seams, is sewn by an interior stitch. The seam allowances are then tucked inside as per the rather crude drawing below:

The above represents a shoulder with the seam left closed. (By the way, either the pad or the wearerâ€™s shoulder or both will force those two strips over toward the sleeve side when the coat is worn.) The seam allowance sort of â€œstandsâ€ in that case, and the overall effect looks like roping because of the slight â€œpuffâ€ at the top of the sleeve as the cloth rises from the seam, and then curves over down into the sleeve. True roping, however, takes wadding in the sleevehead, and that is not a hallmark of this particular style. A closed seem will â€œdefineâ€ the place where the shoulder ends and the sleeve begins, and thus look slightly less natural and rounded. The upper sleeve looks to â€œbellowâ€ out from the scye. Some call this a â€œtrumpet sleeveâ€, on the notion that the flare of the sleevehead looks like the bell of a trumpet.

Here is a picture of an unpadded coat with a hand-set, closed seam shoulder. Note the way the sleevehead â€œstandsâ€ a little, even though there is not any wadding to fill it out or hold it up. Note also the puckering, to some a defect, to others, poetry in motion:

This coat is behaving itself a little more than usual, but you can see some of the puckering and rippling. Also note the way the cloth rises up from the seam and then falls down into the sleeve. That bump is what the Italians call _rollino_. It is like rope, but totally natural. There is no wadding or padding at all.

Here is another example of a shoulder with a closed seam. This one is quite sloped and natural but very lightly padded. (My thanks to Mr. Alden of the London Lounge for permission to use this picture.)

â€œPressing openâ€ a seam means folding the seam allowances back in opposite directions, then taking an iron and pressing them down so that they are flat against the cloth. Examples of pressed-open seams would be the center back of a coat, the side and back seams of trousers, etc. On a shoulder it would go something like this:

If you press open a Neapolitan sleevehead seam it will smooth out the shoulder a bit, especially at the top. However, it will â€œforceâ€ that excess cloth down into the upper arm, making the upper arm look very â€œstormyâ€ and not at all smooth. Again, some really hate this look.

Here is an example of an unpadded coat with an open sleevehead seam. This coat does not have the fullness of the true Neapolitan sleevehead, but it will give you an idea of what an unpadded open seam looks like:

Now, there is a little bit of roll there. The cloth is thick, so the seam canâ€™t be pressed completely flat, but you can see that it is pretty close. Certainly much more flat than the closed seam shown above.

Here is another example (thanks again to Mr. Alden):

Finally we come to the third element, the _spalla camicia _or â€œshirt shoulder.â€ Again, this is NOT the defining characteristic of the Neapolitan shoulder. It is something that Neapolitan tailors do more than tailors trained in any other tradition, so it is naturally associated with them. But it is not a universal trait of Neapolitan coats and it is not synonymous or interchangeable with â€œNeapolitan shoulder.â€

With a _spalla camicia_, both strips of seam allowance are folded in the same direction: back under the shoulder, as depicted here:

When you press open a seam, the seam allowances will stay on â€œtheirâ€ side without help, especially if there is a pad underneath, in which case they have nowhere to go. But when you try to fold them both in the same direction, they wonâ€™t. The natural tension inherent in the cloth will pull the sleeve-side seam allowance back down. So those layers have to be anchored. This is done with a top stitch that goes through both layers of seam allowance and then through the suit cloth itself. There will be a visible pick stitch close to the seam, on the neck side, at most about 1/16â€ from the seam.

Now, since there seems to be confusion on this point, let me clarify a couple of things. So far as I know, ALL dress shirt shoulders are made like this, insofar as both seam allowances are always folded up under the shoulder (i.e., neck side, not arm side), and then a stitch is run through both of the seam allowances and the top (outer, visible) cloth. (However, on dress shirts, the exposed cut edge of the cloth must be folded back into the seam lest it fray; that is not necessary for coats, because the lining will protect the seam from fraying.) On the vast majority of shirts, this stitch is done by machine and it thus quite visible. On certain high-end Neapolitan brands, it is done by hand, which is harder to see, but still visible if you look for it.

This may explain why some get confused on this point. On â€œnormalâ€ coats, no exterior shoulder stitch is visible at all; the seam is sewn only on the inside, and then either pressed open or left closed. On â€œnormalâ€ shirts, a machine stitch is clearly visible on the outside of the shoulder. On coats with the _spalla camicia_, a very subtle hand pic is visible if you look closely. (The lighter the color and more tightly woven the cloth, the more visible this stitch is.) On Neapolitan shirts, a similar hand-pic is also visible only if you look closely. Now, if you judge whether or not a coat has a _spalla camicia _according to whether you can see a clearly visible exterior shirt stitch, you will mislead yourself. A _spalla camicia_ coat has a subtle hand stitch, not a clearly visible machine stitch. It actually looks a lot like the shoulder seam of a hand-sewn Neapolitan shirt. I think some people get confused because they assume that because _spalla camicia_ means â€œshirt shoulderâ€ they expect to see that clearly visible shirt shoulder stitch. Some even make direct comparisons to their Neapolitan shirts, and not seeing that stitch on the shirts, assume that the _spalla camicia _has no connection to the shirt sleeve. But this is a pretty basic error. How visible the stitch is depends largely on whether it is done by hand or by machine. Machine stitches are always more visible than hand stitches, on shirts or coats, because far more of the stitchâ€™s thread shows. Whereas with hand stitching, only very small intermittent pics will show. But whether the stitch is clearly visible or not, once again, all dress shirt shoulders are made the same way: both seam allowances are folded up under the shoulder and then anchored by a stitch that goes through both layers of seam allowance AND the top (showing) panel of cloth. How clearly you can see the stitch is irrelevant to this fact. Those who think that because their Neapolitan shirts donâ€™t show a clearly visible outer stitch simply do not understand this. The stitch is there. They just need to look more closely.

When the seam allowances are both tucked under the shoulder, that (obviously) means that the sleeve-side allowance is no longer on the sleeve side. Get it? It has been forced the other way. When it is allowed to remain on the sleeve side, it â€œsupportsâ€ the sleevehead. It is an extra layer of cloth (however narrow) that reinforces the upward arc of the sleevehead. But when it is stitched under the shoulder, that layer is gone. This the upper sleeve falls straight down with no support. This causes the â€œflutingâ€ or â€œrainfallâ€ effect. This is, strictly speaking, a different thing than the rippling or puckering inherent in the trumpet sleeve. The rainfall effect will happen in varying degrees whether or not the upper sleeve has a lot of fullness. Thus, the puckering from excess fullness and the fluting from the _spalla camicia _are two separate and distinct things. They often go together, but they donâ€™t have to. The rainfall of a _spalla camicia _is unique in that it falls straight down into the sleeve, whereas the shoulder side of the sleevehead is most smooth. Partly, what smoothes out the shoulder is the fact that not one but two layers of seam allowance are tucked up under the shoulder, giving it extra support.

This is an important point: the tell-tale sign of a _spalla camicia _is that there appears to be a â€œridgeâ€ on the shoulder side. Why? Because there are three layers of cloth on the shoulder side but only one on the sleeve side. See here:

Thus the shoulder seam and its tucked-under seam allowance appear like a ridge, under which the sleeve flows downward. With a pressed open seam, there are two layers of cloth on each side, equalizing things and making the top (showing) side look more or less flat.

Finally, a picture of a _spalla camicia_, in this case the coat has a little padding and not an overlarge upper sleeve. Thus you can see the fluting or rainfall, but not a lot of â€œpleatingâ€ or â€œpuckering.â€

Note the fluting. That is not the same as the puckering from excess fullness. That is the rainfall that flows downward because there is no seam allowance cloth or anything else to smooth out the sleevehead. Note also the barely visible ridge. Unfortunately, the picture really does not show the outside stitch. Sorry about that.

Here is another example, just to round things out (once again, thanks to Mr. Alden for permission to use):

Finally, here is a side-by-side of two Naples-made coats, both unpadded. The one on the left is a closed seam _con rollino_; the one on the right is a _spalla camicia _(originally posted on Style Forum by Giona Granata):


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## risto (Apr 11, 2005)

What an example of an enlightening contribution. Thanks Manton. Well done.


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## CHC (Jul 16, 2005)

Thanks for the post manton, interesting stuff. 

Just curious, is this type of thing exclusive to Neopolitans? I know companies like Anderson and Sheppard are renownded for "softness", but do they use *no* padding at all?


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## Keith Adams (Feb 19, 2005)

Manton -

Beautifully explained - Thank you.

I have a few coats cut in the Neapolitan style and have always appreciated what I have called the ' hint of rope ' on the shoulders but I never knew nor even inquired how 
" rollino " was achieved.

I'm also curious as to which firm made Mr. Alden's green window pan coat. Do you know?




K.A. Adams


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## Keith Adams (Feb 19, 2005)

Something happened to my reply ....text moved around ..... windowpane spelled as window pan ???



K.A. Adams


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Sophistication_
> 
> I'm not sure, but I believe this to be a Borrelli RTW to demonstrate Manton's point about padding versus the authentic.And this is me RTW Borrelli. (Please ignore my half windsor, I'm learning[:I]I've been using the Nicky now)


A little off topic but what is "the Nicky"? I thought I knew every tie knot imaginable but I have not heard of this one (excepting the few times I've seen you reference it). Perhaps, it has another name?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Oh, hell. I knew all that stuff already. But you said it pretty good ... at least for a "rules" guy. [}]

Actually, really beautiful post. Thank you for clearing up the rampant confusion. You've outdone yourself.

Not that that would be difficult. 

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Thanks Manton.

The green coat is overal pretty nice. Thought one side part way up the lapel seems to have a problem. On the same side, from the button down, the front edge curves outward, which is an error in my opinion.

The coat with the blue net vest and polk a dot tie- the sleeve crown reminds me of my Granddads, but his construction methods of attaching the sleeve to the scye was entirely different. That jacket looks very nice.

And I finally see a rainfall I like.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

I think the green coat looks flawless. The curve you describe is "belly" -- a feature not a bug, as it were. Unless I misunderstood you.

I have used a sewing machine, though it has been a while. I never tried anything that complicated. All the tailors with whom I have discussed this say that the fullness must be fed in and sewn by hand. One even refuses to let his coatmakers do it, and insists on doing it himself.


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## Syringemouth (Aug 24, 2005)

Very nice post, thank you for the information.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WA_
> 
> The green coat is overal pretty nice. Thought one side part way up the lapel seems to have a problem. On the same side, from the button down, the front edge curves outward, which is an error in my opinion.
> 
> ...


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## Notik (Jul 3, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Keith Adams_
> 
> Something happened to my reply ....text moved around ..... windowpane spelled as window pan ???
> 
> K.A. Adams


I have a green windowpane coat in the same (or an almost identical fabric) from Isaia. Mine is very unconstructed, with partial lining, no padding in the shoulders. The fabric is a flannel cashmere. Super comfortable jacket. Though now that it is a few years old it is showing a little wear, as cashmere -- very sadly! -- will.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


- The NIcky may and probably does have a different name, but I found it in The 85 ways to tie a tie by Fink and Mao. Page 74. They have a history lesson about how it came to, Ernesto Curami, of the Italian shop Nicky, advocated it in Milan. Then it goes on about how it resurfaced-ie Pratt tied wrong, submitted to the Daily Telegraph, mislabeled the Super Pratt, then the Oleny, really just rediscovered the Nicky, etc. etc. The book has alot of history, how things came to be, if you're more a historian etc.

From an application standpoint, which is more my conern, The Nicky was described as, "an elegant and versatile knot intermediate in size between the four-in-hand and the half Windsor--which was what I was looking for. The knot begins with the tie inside-out around the neck. Apparently, the knot's primary advantage over the Pratt is that it unties cleanly, leaving no residual overhand knot when the passive end is removed.

You can pick the book up for pennies in good conidtion off amazon.com or several other sites. I like it because it describes the pros and cons of alot of knots, and how they compare to other knots, easy to follow graphics, and you can experiment with lots of them.

Constantly Improving my Sartorial Style


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## nicksull (Sep 1, 2005)

One of the best original posts ive ever read on tailoring on this site. 
Best thing about menswear is you can keep on learning for ever.


nicks


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## Fashionslave (Sep 20, 2003)

Manton-you're back-(and not in Black!)Thanks for the awesome post!


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=5067&page=5&highlight=rollino

This thread will be of interest if you've enjoyed this briefing, as you will see where one of these photos originated, and endless discussion about silhouettes.

Pay close attention to Poster: Giona Granata and his pictures.

Some of the interesting comments such as:

these pictures (Manton's Last Picture post) come from Mr. Giancarlo Maresca , and this jackets are part of his wonderful wardrobe. Mr Maresca likes large and high lapels, and the cran looking over the shoulder. That is parte of the true neapolitan style.

They are neapolitan in the heart, and surely come from one of the tailors Mr. Miumoi mentioned in the message before.

I live in the north of Italy, and here the style is quite different, as Mr. Menton pointed out, and you surely know.

you mentioned the most authoritative voice in Italy, about men's clothing and in particular neapolitan style: Giancarlo Maresca and the Nove Porte.
Antonio Panico and Gennaro Solito are all well renowned.
London House of Rubinacci is one of most famous tailor house not only in Naples, but in Italy, and it is also a Bank of english fabric/

Fun stuff nonetheless. And he answers posters questions, a true gentleman.

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=5067&highlight=Scholte
Manton states: "Borrelli: A more "widening" silhouette. *Buttons spaced apart more, wider lapels, etc. *Otherwise, pretty classically Neapolitan."

I guess Borrelli does come as close as can be expected for the US RTW to being classically neapolitan. Joking aside, from a real world perspective, doesn't padding have many benefits to the structure and longetivity of a suit? I would say it does without a doubt, and for steady wear maybe preferable?. I do love the elegance of the 'a camicia' shirt shoulder. Ch(ee)icago and Da Bear's ain't no Naples.lol

Constantly Improving my Sartorial Style


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:Hmmm- I guess Manton has never used a sewing machine. Beneath the cloth are some teeth that pop up and push the lower layer of cloth forward, while on top the cloth is a pressure foot that holds the cloth from going up and down with the needle. This means one layer is being pushed forward while the other layer is being held back by the pressure foot. If you have two equal lenghts then you need to hold the two layers taw eough to pervent the bottom layer from creeping ahead. If you have two unequal lenghts, then the longer goes on the bottom. If you want even more of the bottom to go through you can place a finger behind the the foot to slow the top cloth from going through so fast. So, sewing machine can do the job, but sewing by hand can do a better job.


 With all due respect, except for the last nine words, this is wonderful theory which might work in practice at the K-mart level of sewing. Beyond that, the degree of control one has over the 'holdback' characteristics of the presser (not pressure) foot is - on a scale of 1-10 - just about 0. Holding one layer taut (not taw) requires two hands. Shirring in the other layer requires another hand to do properly. Either two people are going to drive the sewing machine or... Moreover, the 'holdback' characteristics of the presser foot vary with the weight and friction of the cloth. Additionally, with two unequal lengths, the longer goes on the top, not the bottom. Finally, the 'finger behind the foot trick' does not work well on cloths heavier than shirtings and I believe Manton was discussing suitings. Aside from these few problems, your theory is correct.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## Keith Adams (Feb 19, 2005)

Manton -

One more try - Do you know who made Mr. Alden's green coat?



K.A. Adams


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

I have noticed a little of the puckering effect on A&S jackets in their shop. They also have that effect of sleeve head standing. I have noticed this to a lesser extent on a Thomas Mahon coat


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*This is a superb thread and one which we should all be grateful for.* I'm going to go over to the trad forum and make sure folks know about it.

*Regarding the Nicky*--(my understanding is that) this knot was named after Nikita Kruschev, who wore it extensively. It is, essentially, the simplest possible knot. Having said that, I can't explain it in words, but the process has a counter-intuitive step in where you go backwards, in comparison to other typical knots. (I think I'm just making things needlessly confusing here, so I'll stop.)

Again, a great thread and a wonderful post, Manton. Superb work.

BTW, how do you think the neopolitan shoulder compares to the American natural shoulder? Both seem to be described as somewhat sloping and with minimal padding.

Markus


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## DressPRMex (Jun 20, 2005)

Thanks for sharing, Manton![8D]


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## Syringemouth (Aug 24, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kabbaz-

You seem a little uptight


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Superbly done, manton. Just please stop posting these things early in the workweek...I won't get anything done!


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## mgnov (Jan 11, 2006)

I'll have to bookmark this post and come back to it after I finish my degree.

(Seriously, a fine presentation!)


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Amazing post - thanks manton. I'll be asking Raphael for the spalla camica on my next suit - some of the examples he showed me in his office were beautiful.

Panzer


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## sweetbooness (Feb 26, 2004)

Thanks very much. You continue to provide us with consistently informative posts, that are among the highlights of AAAC in my view.


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## Blackadder (Apr 3, 2004)

Brilliant post. Thank you for explaining something that I have hitherto found inexplicable.


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## charle22 (Feb 20, 2004)

> quote:_Author: Keith Adams_
> 
> One more try - Do you know who made Mr. Alden's green coat?


The coat in question may be of A&S lineage; possibly Steed, S. Hitchcock, or T. Mahon.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:Kabbaz- You seem a little uptight


 Without question!

I found Manton's post delicious ... like a glass of top quality perfectly decanted, properly aged red wine. So here I was, sitting back, enjoying the succulent scent ... at which point the poster I admittedly pummelled walked by and dumped a scoopful of chipped ice into my glass.

Now, if yer gonna mess with a great glass of wine, you'd durn well better be correct in your messin'. 'twas not the case in this instance and, in horror, I felt compelled to mess back.

Manton: don't let this go to your head. Just turn back to the keyboard and keep writing. Earn your keep.

EDIT: Sorry, Malinda. [B)]

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
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* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## pinky (Mar 9, 2006)

"Classic Neapolitan coats have very small armholes, very close shoulders, and relatively lean bodiesâ€”more roomy than a Roman or Continental coat, but less than traditional Savile Row, and much less than what is typically made in America."

I have heard that Attolini, from Naples, makes the leanest RTW jacket. Is this not true? Is Brioni, from Rome, leaner? Perhapes Attolini is not "classic neapolitan" and this explains the difference? Perhapes someone like Borrelli would be more roomy than its Roman counterpart?


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## sheik (Apr 24, 2005)

Is there any question why men of good taste flock to this website?

MANTON IN '08.

Yup, I said it. He'd be the first stylish presidente since JFK. Who's with me?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Attolini is probably the leanest high end RTW coat I have ever seen. It has a lot of classical Neapolitan traits, but I would not call it classic Naples. The original Cesare Attolini got his start as a coatmaker at Rubinacci in the 20s, and they were making a fuller coat.


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## Romualdo (Oct 18, 2005)

THANK YOU MANTON! I look forward to reading your post to Romualdo, our founder.

Trevor L. Furbay
Proprietor

ROMUALDO TAILORING CO.
www.romualdo.com


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

I am a longtime fan of the shirt sleeve shoulder, and I cannot tell you how nice it is to see your diagrams which shed light on the construction of said shoulder style. Thanks.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Chris Despos- The right and left lapel look different. It looks like one side has a belly in it, which even stands out more so because of the window pain pattern. And from the 3rd button hole along the edge for an inch or two there is a rolled edge, maybe because it just came out of a suit case, but it could also be somebodies sewing mistake, and if I were paying $2,000 for that coat I would not want either. As far as the 3 button roll to second this is a rather simple job- I've seen much more complicated ones, which are into the grandiose.

Below the button I'm not sure if you understand what I mean. Along the outer edge it is sewn so that it rolls outward, I don't mean the cut. All my instructor and the 4 books I've looked at say the better tailors don't do that. Reasons to do it could be the customer likes it. So, perhapes this is something we maybe agreeabley disagree about.


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## malinda (Aug 25, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by WA_
> 
> Alexander Kabbaz- Are you on medical pot or drunk?


Oh, for crying out loud. Cut it out. Now.


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## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Phenomenal post and pictures on a fascinating feature of Neapolitan tailoring. Thanks for enlightening us. What is striking to me is that there are very few - if any - tailors in the US (or more generally, outside of Naples) offering this. Perhaps because it requires a supporting cottage industry of skilled craftsman that is not easily exportable. 

Nonetheless, I would think such a style would do well in the US. Though we might disagree on the aesthetic merits of the Neapolitan shoulder, it does seem to offer a very high level of comfort and ease of movement for those who care about such things. 

I'm curious to know if anyone knows of a tailor in the US - practicing or retired - capable of (re)creating the Neapolitan shoulder. I can make it a bit easier to extend the geography to Canada and South America (which I understand has a sizeable Italian population).

"Ease and grace in everything" - Gracian


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

WA: If you wish to be treated with respect, you don't begin posts with disrespectful statements such as "Hmmm- I guess Manton has never used a sewing machine."

Leaving that aside, if you decide to make a technical argument, then get it - at least partially - right. I responded as I did primarily in response to your disrespect. Had you been correct in your allegations I would have been unable to do so. Sadly for you, and "all your instructors, and the four books you have looked at" - you got absolutely nothing right. Your entire post was wrong. Every last bit of it. Backwards. Upside down. Wrong. Each and every statement. Wrong. The sole nine words in your post which were correct was your admission at the very end that by hand is better.

Edit: Non-cuddly doesn't spell well when mad.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Manton,

Thanks so much! BTW did you see the article on Naples in the Spring issue of Menswear?

Karl


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

I too wonder why the Neopolitan style is not exported to other parts including London. There are many Itaian origin folk in the UK and London is very cosmopolitan, except, it seems, with tailoring.


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## SilkCity (Apr 3, 2004)

I (Caraceni client notwithstanding) am not worthy of Manton's erudition.

Great and informative post, amico!
Gabe


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

manton,

this is wonderful, and thank you. I don't know if you will be going to this level of detail in your book, but if you don't, please start writting the next one.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

I wonder how hard it is really to do the pleated shoulder. I see a lot of women's RTW clothing with big puffs and pleats at the sleevehead, along with high armholes. Perhaps it's getting it to be smaller and subtler so it's appropriately masculine that's the tough part.

Is the pleating a necessary consequence of having a larger sleevehead than arm scye? Kilgour says that their sleeveheads are larger than their arm scyes, but they seem to have very clean shoulders.

In case it hasn't been said enough times already, too: wonderful article, Manton.

--Andre


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Despos, correct me if I am wrong:

1) Upper sleeves are always somewhat larger in diameter than the scye. It is a matter of degree. The Neapolitan pleated sleevehead is MUCH larger. You can press out (really, shrink out, then press) most of that excess on the top if the upper sleeve is not hugely large. But if it is, forget it.

2) It takes much longer sew a sleeve by hand. Feed, sew, feed, sew. Etc.

3) And it IS harder. The feeding has to be consistent and even. Plus, the way the sleeve hangs (the pitch) can be much more easily thrown off as you sew. I had such a coat made recently on which the left sleeve was perfect, and the right off by 3/16". The tailor was pissed. He had to take it out and set it all over again. He got it just right, though.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

All sleeves are bigger. Ususally for mens jackets 2 1/2 inches. For shinkable cloths add as much as can be shrunk out if you want polished marble look. Non shrinkable- probably less.

Manton 'polished marble' description for sleeve crown is the best I've ever heard.


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## BjornH (Dec 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> ...
> Edit: Non-cuddly doesn't spell well when mad.


It is always good to know that my postings are beeing read. [8D]

Thank you for this post Manton - I made sure to archive it on my laptop.

Bjorn


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by manton_
> 
> Despos, correct me if I am wrong:
> 
> ...


Manton,
No need for correction.
My entire tailoring life has been in Italian workrooms, but we never made a waterfall sleeve or the shirt sleeve. I don't know anyone making this style in the U.S.. I have become aware of it with the popularity of Kiton and similar brands and the photos you have shared are excellent examples.
Sleeve circumference is larger than the armholes circumference and the fullness,in differing amounts, is worked in at different points of the armhole. The various basting techniques and distribution of fullness creates the sleeves "expression", as I like to say. This is also what gives a jacket its kinetic nature. The sewing method to achieve this waterfall effect is unknown to me. Your third point sounds like you are saying the sleeve is sewn in without first being basted. Is this correct? I can understand the benefit of handsewing and how it may be difficult to create this sleeve by machine. I'm curious if sleeveheads of any type are used in any of these examples.
I've seen Len L. sew sleeves in by hand and he claims he can do it as fast and is easier than by machine. All his talk of being slow with a needle is just his humble disposition.

Another element in achieving these sleeve styles is the shape of the cap of the sleeve in relation to the undersleeve. The top sleeve is cut short and wide with a long and wide undersleeve.

At the CTDA convention I met a tailor who is the head of The Academy of Tailors in Rome. All the jackets made in his shop are made without shoulder padding but the shoulders were cut concave and the sleeves were finished similar to the blue jacket in your comparison shot. Incredible clothes. Never seen jackets like this.

I favor and make the Brioni/Fioravanti shoulder and cut of jackets. Personally, I have sloped shoulders and like the contrast to my build. This study of and exposure to neapolitan tailoring is strangely and mysteriously drawing me to experiment with these other looks. My eye for styling is evolving.

Thank you for sharing,
Chris


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I dunno squat 'bout it ... but if I were to do this construction I would baste the gathering into the sleevehead with a long, removable stitch. Once finished, I would then observe the spread of the gathers, adjust the pleating evenly along the stitch and then sew the sleeve into the coat. Subsequently, I might remove the baste.

Chris? Alex? Anyone?

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by archduke_
> 
> I too wonder why the Neopolitan style is not exported to other parts including London. There are many Itaian origin folk in the UK and London is very cosmopolitan, except, it seems, with tailoring.


Well, _has_ opened a London shop.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

> quote:
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> ...


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## hspc (Mar 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by manton_
> 
> This topic generates a lot of confusion, so I thought I would share what I have learned with the members.
> 
> ...


Excellent piece.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Chris Despos_
> 
> Regarding exporting this look to other parts of the world, I think the audience for this style is very small and the retailers (for RTW) who understand and would properly educate and promote this look to their clientele, even smaller.


I've heard a couple of retailers (who specialize in Neopolitan-style clothing) say that many customers think the pleating is wrinkling, and don't like the look. It's definitely an acquired taste.

--Andre


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

New AAAC Forum member Desmond Merrion has an interesting article on his blog on the construction of a Neopolitan shoulder. It seems revelant to this thread: https://www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com/


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## Gruto (Jul 5, 2004)

Andre Yew said:


> I've heard a couple of retailers (who specialize in Neopolitan-style clothing) say that many customers think the pleating is wrinkling, and don't like the look. It's definitely an acquired taste.


"The Rainfall" might be an napolitanian invention but is a very old and classic to way to treat a sleeve. You find many pictures of garments from 19th and 18th century which shows a rainfall at the shoulder. A local tailor told me that the rainfall was a common technique in 1950s and 1960s among tailors in Copenhagen just to show that it was bespoke!


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

*There is nothing new under the sun*



Gruto said:


> "The Rainfall" might be an napolitanian invention but is a very old and classic to way to treat a sleeve. You find many pictures of garments from 19th and 18th century which shows a rainfall at the shoulder.


I wonder if it is a Neapolitan invention at all. I suspect that the Neapolitans have merely continued to make this style of shoulder long after it had gone out of fashion elsewhere. In the 19th C. unpadded shoulders were the norm up till around the 1870's. Padded shoulders were referred to as "American shoulders".

I guess a perfect example of this sort of older shoulder construction is this superb example dating from circa 1815:

https://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridingsuit19c9rm.jpg

As Ambrose Bierce said: "There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we don't know".


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## Gruto (Jul 5, 2004)

Sator said:


> I wonder if it is a Neapolitan invention at all. I suspect that the Neapolitans have merely continued to make this style of shoulder long after it had gone out of fashion elsewhere. In the 19th C. unpadded shoulders were the norm up till around the 1870's. Padded shoulders were referred to as "American shoulders".


Excactly, that is why it sounds strange when one hears that Armani (sorry, to mention him) invented the soft jacket in the 1970s and Scholte invented the lightly padded jacket in the 1930s. Indeed, no padding and soft lining has been the norm before!


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Gruto said:


> Excactly, that is why it sounds strange when one hears that Armani (sorry, to mention him) invented the soft jacket in the 1970s and Scholte invented the lightly padded jacket in the 1930s. Indeed, no padding and soft lining has been the norm before!


I don't think anyone says that Scholte invented the lightly padded coat. In fact, by modern standards of Scholte-inspired cuts, his coats were more padded and stronger-shouldered than those of contemporary followers. What it is claimed that Scholte invented is the drape cut.


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## alaric (May 23, 2005)

Clarity, at last!

Thank you, Manton.

alaric


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Gruto said:


> Excactly, that is why it sounds strange when one hears that Armani (sorry, to mention him) invented the soft jacket in the 1970s and Scholte invented the lightly padded jacket in the 1930s. Indeed, no padding and soft lining has been the norm before!


This claim about Armani is new to me. However, it would not surprise me one bit if it was claimed that he invented the suit. The sorts of claims made by advertisers are barely worth the effort typing out on a keyboard methinks.


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## Oswald Cornelius (Sep 27, 2005)

I thought Armani invented the internet? No?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Oswald Cornelius said:


> I thought Armani invented the internet? No?


And the wheel to boot


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

WA said:


> Hmmm- I guess Manton has never used a sewing machine. Beneath the cloth are some teeth that pop up and push the lower layer of cloth forward, while on top the cloth is a pressure foot that holds the cloth from going up and down with the needle. This means one layer is being pushed forward while the other layer is being held back by the pressure foot. If you have two equal lenghts then you need to hold the two layers taw eough to pervent the bottom layer from creeping ahead. If you have two unequal lenghts, then the longer goes on the bottom. If you want even more of the bottom to go through you can place a finger behind the the foot to slow the top cloth from going through so fast. So, sewing machine can do the job, but sewing by hand can do a better job.
> 
> The green coat is overal pretty nice. Thought one side part way up the lapel seems to have a problem. On the same side, from the button down, the front edge curves outward, which is an error in my opinion.
> 
> ...


on the green coat. the left lapel is rolled up higher plus given the camera angle makes it look as though there is a belly on the edge. if it were rolled as the right they would be the same.the edge bows out on the left because the coat is too tight and the model may have a heavy of high left hip. or a heavy wallet there. note the lines of draw at the button. thats tight. on second look yes the modles left hip is larger.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

a tailor said:


> on the green coat. the left lapel is rolled up higher plus given the camera angle makes it look as though there is a belly on the edge. if it were rolled as the right they would be the same.the edge bows out on the left because the coat is too tight and the model may have a heavy of high left hip. or a heavy wallet there. note the lines of draw at the button. thats tight. on second look yes the modles left hip is larger.


So, 'a tailor', would the left be more crooked and the right more straight to correct the fit?

Or, just correcting for a lower shoulder?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

I think this another example of what Medwards has noted earlier, viz., the difficultly of judging a garment from one photo. I have seen this coat on the owner, as well as several others by the same tailor, and it is phenomenal. Let's try to remember that cloth is not steel. It moves and is meant to move.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

Oswald Cornelius said:


> I thought Armani invented the internet? No?


I thought Gore.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Manton- I always like seeing that coat- the green cloth and nice style. I would do the lapels a little different. Anybody know what cloth that is?



The sleeve caps on the green coat would look better, I think, if they were like this. Although, the ones on the green coat are fine. Sometimes I like the puffed sleeve caps.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

It's a North Highland Tweed, I forget the number, even though I have exactly the same cloth.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Great post, Manton. Thanks for the education!


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

manton said:


> It's a North Highland Tweed, I forget the number, even though I have exactly the same cloth.


Thanks Manton. Looked high and low on the internet and found nothing. Perhapes I should ask Smiths, or some other company that sells cloth for the weavers.

Some time I would like to hand select some yarns and have them woven to my design, and watch them do it. But, a continent and ocean away- it ain't go'en to happen for awhile. There are a couple of websites that allows one to play with the idea of ones weaveing ideas.


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## Scott Hill (Jun 9, 2009)

Bravo! Manton, I know you wrote this in 2003; but I just had a chance to read this for the first time. Your description and understanding ot the "Neapolitan" shoulder and "expression" is well detailed and the first time I have seen such a concisely detailed description of the Naples style. 

I have specialized in the sales of Neapolitan suits and jackets from Sartoria Partenopea, Kiton, some Isaia from Naples and also Castangia from Sicily ( also the southern reigon of Italy). Your post should be re posted on PAGE One of the "Ask Andy" site.. as to this day, I see alot of confusion and mis information from posts on this subject. Your Thread is most accurate and well presented. This is coming from a verteran, Neapolitan enthusiast for more than 30 years. Again, well done!! 

Scott Hill
Scott Hill Bespoke Designs


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