# Domestic cuisine in restaurants



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

It might sound odd that you can't find English food or English restaurants in England serving traditional English food or Swedish food in Swedish restaurants, but it's very true. But whenever I've been to France, French food is easy to find in eateries. The same is true of Czech Republic, Germany and Portugal.

Last week, several visitors asked me as well as some Swedes where they could go to a traditional Swedish restaurant in Stockholm to eat traditional Swedish food. And do you know, not one of us, not even the hotel staff, could come up with a single restaurant of that type. 
We could name Indian, Lebanese, Chinese, Italian, German and so on.

Then some of the Brits & I got talking about the same phenomenon in London. And the only English restaurants I could think of in London serving old fashioned trad English food were the old fashioned chop house on Floral Street in Covent Garden, and the very posh ,very expensive one in a back street just off Kings Road, just a bit east of Sydney Street. 

Ireland is getting like that as well now. I remember when I was last over in Donegal 6 or 7 years ago, and the best "looking" thing on the pub menu amongst all the global food was lasagne. However, it was awful, dry pasta and they'd forgotten the bechemel sauce.

I can't imagine the same is true in the US, after all there are burger, steak, and rib shacks all over the place.

But have you ever been to a country where you couldn't get local food in any restaurants?


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

As you mention cuisine before restaurants, you can get a roast dinner in lots of pubs on Sundays. Carveries cover the standard meat and two veg and are also quite common in pubs and hotels. 

Ireland was not big on dining out but pubs usually had decent grub. Cooked breakfasts in caffs are comparatively expensive over there. 

I am not sure what Swedish cuisine consists of. I could not get a hamburger in Hamburg though last month - apart from McDonalds. There was no Ye Olde German hamburger seller. I think kebabs and curry wurst are more their thing.

Incidentally someone was saying Swedish property was incredibly cheap outside the big cities for example old property in the Swedish Lake district. I checked and you can get a house for the price of a good car. What are the downsides apart from the complete lack of employment opportunities( which would not matter for a holiday home) ?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

When we visited London, we thought Indian food was English food!!


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I can't imagine the same is true in the US, after all there are burger, steak, and rib shacks all over the place.


How sad - if understandable - that one would identify traditional US dining as burgers, steaks, and rib shacks. Be that as it may...

It's a somewhat different situation in the US, in that instead of authentic American cuisine (to the extent such a thing could even be said to exist), emphasis would be placed on authentic regional dishes (which do exist, and which are readily found in restaurants).

For example, a table full of crabs w/Old Bay seasoning could fairly be regarded as an example of a traditional regional cuisine in various places near the Chesapeake Bay, and crawdad etouffee an example of traditional regional cuisine in much of Louisiana. Both are easily found in restaurants in their respective regions. But neither is really an example of an all encompassing national American cuisine.

Frankly, speaking of American cuisine is almost akin to a discussion of traditional European cuisine. Just as what's traditional in Madrid will differ from what's traditional in Gdansk, rendering the notion of an over-arching European cuisine silly, so do the traditional dishes of Texas and Minnesota have little in common with each other.

The situation is further complicated, of course, by the fact that many extremely popular "American" dishes are borrowings from other countries, brought here by immigrants, albeit with the basic recipes often altered to some extent. In fact, while I say "many," it might be more true to say "virtually all." I mean, I suppose corn on the cob is authentically American, in that it didn't arrive in the US from elsewhere, it's popular nationwide, and it's relatively uncommon as a food for human consumption in most other parts of the world (although over the past generation or so, its acceptance has increased) . But while I like corn on the cob just fine, it lacks some of the gravitas necessary to constitute a national cuisine.

Anyway, no, I've never been to a country where I couldn't get local food in any restaurants. Although I have been to places where the traditional local/national cuisine was regarded as "peasant food," and was held in lower esteem than various foreign foods. And in other places where there were essentially two types of restaurants - the easily found one that catered to foreign tourists, and the less obvious ones that served local residents. The tourist restaurants often claimed to serve authentic local cuisine, but in fact routinely altered this cuisine so as to avoid foods, spices, presentations, etc., which many tourists might have found too alien or extreme for comfort.
-- 
Michael


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> When we visited London, we thought Indian food was English food!!


It is!  But apart from that!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

12345Michael54321 said:


> How sad - if understandable - that one would identify traditional US dining as burgers, steaks, and rib shacks. Be that as it may...
> 
> It's a somewhat different situation in the US, in that instead of authentic American cuisine (to the extent such a thing could even be said to exist), emphasis would be placed on authentic regional dishes (which do exist, and which are readily found in restaurants).
> 
> For example, a table full of crabs w/Old Bay seasoning could fairly be regarded as an example of a traditional regional cuisine in various places near the Chesapeake Bay,...


When we travel, we miss our favorite restaurants back home!!

And scrapple!!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> Incidentally someone was saying Swedish property was incredibly cheap outside the big cities for example old property in the Swedish Lake district. I checked and you can get a house for the price of a good car. What are the downsides apart from the complete lack of employment opportunities( which would not matter for a holiday home) ?


True! 
On second thoughts I've sent a PM to you so as not to derail the thread subject.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

I was in Vienna a couple of months ago and had one heck of a hard time finding a can of those little sausages.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

The only place I've ever seen Swedish food served was in Dublin, Ballymun infact. Ikea. If you could call it Swedish food, that is. The did however have all kinds of dries reindeer bits and odd looking fishy bits in jars. Possibly not the best of what Sweden has to offer. But then again.....

Also if I remember correctly(when the Beeb ran the show) the most popular dish in Britain is Chicken Tikka Masala. A speciality hailing from the exotic climes of Birmingham. 

But seriously, I believe it's more about types of foodstuffs eaten rather than styles or techniques that seperate the different cooking cultures. From Dublin to Berlin - traditionally speaking, it's pretty much meat and two veg.

Generally and imo, the west's taste was/is driven broadly by protein, fat, carbohydrate, roughage - probably in that order. Driven historically by our cold, wet winters and mild warm summers and before central heating was invented so we needed to fatten up to survive winter. We've never really adapted our diet to match modern lifestyles. Of course match this with increased household incomes, reliance on cheaper produced foodstuffs and ingriedients that mess with our taste receptors at a neurological level and easy to see why obesity is so prevalent today.


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## Umlauf (Jun 4, 2010)

America and Australia are very similar in this way - we don´t have a specific food which is specific to us and is eaten regularly. Of course, we have kangaroo, crocodile and emu which no-one else does, but its not exactly a national food. You´d be closer with a meat pie and a slice of pavlova. I guess for me, growing up on the beaches, I associate home with amazingly fresh seafood which I haven´t had anywhere in Europe. Also in Sydney Thai and Sushi are massive influences.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

VictorRomeo said:


> The only place I've ever seen Swedish food served was in Dublin, Ballymun infact. Ikea. If you could call it Swedish food, that is. The did however have all kinds of dries reindeer bits and odd looking fishy bits in jars. Possibly not the best of what Sweden has to offer. But then again.....
> 
> Also if I remember correctly(when the Beeb ran the show) the most popular dish in Britain is Chicken Tikka Masala. A speciality hailing from the exotic climes of Birmingham.
> 
> ...


Glasgow is the purported home of Chicken Tikka Massala, someone complained a chicken massala was to dry and the cook added some spices to Campbell's condensed tomato soup to make a sauce and a nightmare was born. Though as no mention of deep frying is in the story I refuse to believe it.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

I sit corrected - I was typing that from memory after watching that TV show the beeb did about the UKs favourite dishes. Yeah, tomato soup.... I can see that. Scarily, I'm quite fond of that dish when out. That said, Indian restaraunts are not as ubiquitous here as they are over there..... They perch higher up the 'fine' dining scale here....


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Umlauf..can you stop linking to that (Is it yours? I'm guessing it might be as it's a German based forum) gold sales or buying forum or whatever it is. So far about 5 times today! I think it probably counts as unauthorised advertising or spam! I'm sure a moderator will be able to tell you. Only 10 posts and already several links to a forum that has no relevance to the topics being discussed....hhhmm...the term spammer does spring to mind.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

https://www.manze.co.uk/

The pie and mash shop in Sutton is not haute cuisine but it is British. I do not eat jellied eels or shellfish myself. The pies are nothing to write home about.

Had the pies in Sydney, Australia from the roadside stall with the pea gravy. Also had good fish Barramundi etc. is specifically Australian.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Quite possibly the best pies I've ever eaten were the roadside 'meat' pasties in Harare/Zimbabwe a couple of years ago. I don't know how they managed to get such flavour in and such tasty pastry given the lack of ingriedients. They were really, really good.

I'm in London next week so I might just check that pie shop out. Lot to be said for great pie.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Kingstonian said:


> I do not eat jellied eels...


There was a Jellied Eel vebdor in Brighton when we visited.

We opted for a soft ice cream with a flake bar in it instead!!


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

WouldaShoulda said:


> We opted for a soft ice cream with a flake bar in it instead!!


What we call a 99(nintynine)..... yum.... now I want one!


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## Pembers (May 3, 2010)

Northern Spain is a great place to go for "authentic" (such a naff word) local cuisine. Never had better food than in San Sebastian - even really smart places like Arzak have quite traditional local options.

London, where I'm from, has more genuine English restaurants than you might think, it's just that a lot of them are in the suburbs. For example Franklin's in East Dulwich. 

As for Oxford, the kebab vans are old and venerable enough to be classed as bona fide local cuisine by this point. It's not like their food bears any resemblance to what you find in the middle east, is it.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

VictorRomeo said:


> Quite possibly the best pies I've ever eaten were the roadside 'meat' pasties in Harare/Zimbabwe a couple of years ago. I don't know how they managed to get such flavour in and such tasty pastry given the lack of ingriedients. They were really, really good.
> 
> I'm in London next week so I might just check that pie shop out. Lot to be said for great pie.


Believe me, the Sutton pie and mash is not somewhere you would go out of your way to visit. They have more central locations but it is a very ordinary mince pie.

There is a pie and mash shop in Exmouth Market (near Mount Pleasant, between Farringdon and The Angel). Their parsley sauce is horrible though. Still handy for Moro, Medcalf and other fancy restaurants if you see it and change your mind.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Umlauf said:


> America and Australia are very similar in this way - we don´t have a specific food which is specific to us and is eaten regularly. Of course, we have kangaroo, crocodile and emu which no-one else does, but its not exactly a national food. You´d be closer with a meat pie and a slice of pavlova. I guess for me, growing up on the beaches, I associate home with amazingly fresh seafood which I haven´t had anywhere in Europe. Also in Sydney Thai and Sushi are massive influences.


If you haven't had fresh seafood anywhere in Europe, its because you haven't been to the right places. ALL European countries that aren't landlocked will have places where fresh seafood is available.


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## turban1 (May 29, 2008)

*fruit bat*

where i live in central london there are many pleasant restaurants serving english food, from famous and pricey places such as simpsons for beef, wilton's and sheekey's for fish, to delicious pies in small eateries around victoria or pimlico. goring's hotel is said to do splendid upmarket english food. boisdale's, on ecclestone and ebury streets, do brilliant game, fish and scottish fare.

but yes, i once dined in the only chamorro restaurant on saipan, with since ww2 the highest per capita consumption of budweiser and spam, a legacy of american troops. this is because their earlier national dish was fruit bat. it was the only chamorro dish on the menu, stuck off to one side with lobster, no prices and a note to 'ask your waitress.' i did.

i got a stream-of-consciousness reply. 'fruitbat-come-fruitbat-go-nobody-eat-fruitbat-fruitbat-finished.' so i had a cheeseburger with my american colleagues, who were grossed out at the thought of eating bat.

in the car later, i asked the driver if he liked fruitbat and he shot me a dirty look as if i were mocking him. eventually he confessed. is it like chicken or veal, i asked. he thought awhile.

'no-it-like-how-you-say-like-BIG-RAT!' he replied and my colleagues gagged. how do you cook it, i asked, enjoying their discomfort.

'boil-fruitbat-kills-how-you-say-bad-stuff, then-boil-in-coconut-milk-and-onions," he explained.

'much as we do it back home,' i mused, looking into the mirror at my companions turning a delicate shade of mauve.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Great story Turban. I've never eaten at any of those restaurants you name in London. They weren't part of my scene/life, plus they were too expensive in my opinion, I know as I regularly went past those in Victoria.


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

Umlauf said:


> America and Australia are very similar in this way - we don´t have a specific food which is specific to us and is eaten regularly.


What about the Sunday roast, or roast lamb which is an institution into its self, if there is anything that identifies Australia for me in terms of cuisine its Roast Lamb. Mind you I can cook in over a dozen or more ways.

ps just remembered Harry's Cafe de Wheels 'the pie floater.'


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

ajo said:


> What about the Sunday roast, or roast lamb which is an institution into its self, if there is anything that identifies Australia for me in terms of cuisine its Roast Lamb. Mind you I can cook in over a dozen or more ways.
> 
> ps just remembered Harry's Cafe de Wheels 'the pie floater.'


But it isn't specific to Australia. It is also a classic British, NZ, and even French and Argentinian dish.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Chouan said:


> But it isn't specific to Australia. It is also a classic British, NZ, and even French and Argentinian dish.


_And Irish!...._

Just back from a short business trip to London. Had dinner in Bentley's Oyster Bar and Grill Wednesday night. Very, very good.

Ate fish, steak and lemon pudding....


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

I would say American is definitely more regional than nationwide. Ofcourse burgers and steak are everywhere. But if you know what to look for there are subtle differences between, Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, and Texas BBQ. There are also subtle differences with seafood in gulf states. Boiled crab in Maryland, fried or grilled shrimp in Florida and blackened in Lousiana. Having such a large flow of immigrants to the US has really created a great eating opportunity in most locations. I really can't think of a specific dish that I would call really American except for junk food type items. I can however, this of a number of regional specialties. Maybe thats just like Europe when viewed as a continent and each country as a specific region with their own styles.


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## Not Ed Harris (Jun 30, 2010)

I suppose it all depends on what you consider to be "British foods". The problem, if you want to look at it as one, is that the various foreign cuisines have had such a great impact that it's extraordinarily difficult to find a restaurant which hasn't been influenced in some way.

Basically, what we're left with is pubs (where the food is often dire) at one end and a few higher end traditional British restaurants at the other, with little inbetween.

If I might make a recommendation for when you're next in town, try the Harwood Arms in Fulham. Not too far out the way, but the food is superb and reasonably priced for what it is. Two caveats though: the service can be rather slow, and you really need to book in advance since it got its Michelin star.

Other recommendation would be Richard Corrigan's. I've not tried his new place in Mayfair, but the food I had at Lindsay House was as good as anything I've had in London.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

dwebber18 said:


> But if you know what to look for there are subtle differences between, Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, and Texas BBQ.
> 
> There are also subtle differences with seafood in gulf states. Boiled crab in Maryland,


1. Subtle?? I think NOT!!

2. Only some backward know-nothing would boil a crab. In Maryland we STEAM them!!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> 2. Only some backward know-nothing would boil a crab. In Maryland we STEAM them!!


Globally, I wonder, isn't steaming in the minority? In Sweden, and from memory the UK and Ireland, crab, crayfish and lobster are all boiled.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Ah yeh British foods... Thinking of where I could possibly get some lardy cake.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Globally, I wonder, isn't steaming in the minority? In Sweden, and from memory the UK and Ireland, crab, crayfish and lobster are all boiled.


So my assertion is proved, excellent!!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> So my assertion is proved, excellent!!


  probably.


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## Pirendeus (Jul 17, 2009)

dwebber18 said:


> I would say American is definitely more regional than nationwide. Ofcourse burgers and steak are everywhere. But if you know what to look for there are subtle differences between, Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, and Texas BBQ.


 Definitely true. In SC, there are different types of bbq even when you travel from county to county.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Depends on the region of the U.S you visit it is the same way. There are no restaurants serving traditional New England fare in the CT's cities. Outside the cities the only traditional fare will be seafood related for the most part. Then again CT isn't all that culturally New England.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Pirendeus said:


> Definitely true. In SC, there are different types of bbq even when you travel from county to county.


Is that really true? That there is a variation even in the next county? If so, that would make the US a culinary paradise & I will have to come back here to consult on food before I make any trip to the US. I love Cajun and Texmex and seafood and steak. Not a fan of artsy fartsy nouvelle cuisine or the kind of inedible looking crud Ramsay serves up. I like real food.


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

*NC Barbeque*



Earl of Ormonde said:


> Is that really true? That there is a variation even in the next county? If so, that would make the US a culinary paradise & I will have to come back here to consult on food before I make any trip to the US. I love Cajun and Texmex and seafood and steak. Not a fan of artsy fartsy nouvelle cuisine or the kind of inedible looking crud Ramsay serves up. I like real food.


Earl,
It might take you weeks, if not months, to sample all of the various barbeque (and sauce) varieties in North Carolina, and there are rabid followings from one town to another, not to mention from one end of the state to the other. Carolina "q" is legendary. It is about as regional and "southern" as one can find. And don't even get me started on the brunswick stew and "hush puppies"!
Cheers, tom


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