# Age and bow ties



## D&S (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm going to my girlfriend's dad's law firm's Christmas party on Friday and I asked her tonight what I should wear. Her mom suggested I wear a suit since everyone would be coming from work or alternatively, a blazer and gray flannels. I said I'd wear the blazer and flannels and asked her if I could get away with wearing a bow tie. She told me that everyone was "old" so they wouldn't be wearing bow ties, and that I shouldn't either. This is news to me - I always associated bow ties with older people. It got me thinking that a lot of people our age (early-20's) wear bow ties too, but for some reason I can't picture as many middle-aged people (say, 30-50) wearing them. Am I correct in seeing an age-gap here? Do I put my bow ties into a time capsule on my 30th birthday not to be opened again for 20 years, when I can pull them off again? I'm kidding, but do bow ties really become that much less common during the years that people are in the prime of their careers?

For what it's worth, I'm going with a 3/2 blazer, gray flannels, blue OCBD, red wool tartan tie, black leather belt, and black bit loafers.

EDIT: Not to say that you can't be in the prime of your career after 50 - I mean more like the point when you can start doing what you want because you don't have to impress a boss anymore.


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## 35-Foxtrot (Jun 15, 2008)

I think bow ties tend to be seen either on older gentlemen who are are holding on to old traditions, and younger people who are up on the trends.

For people of that middle generation, spending the prime of their careers during the reign of buisness casual, even a proper suit and tie seems "dressy", and bows are just jumping the shark.

In any event, I'd say wear a bow tie if you want; it's a party, not a job interview. Hell, I'd be breaking out the tartan pants if I were you.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Bowties were out of fashion when I started wearing them in the early '80s. So what? I liked 'em then, like 'em now (at age 59). Got some flak, and of course a couple of the ones that cackled the loudest got some of their own, so I personally feel like I helped to bring them back.

You'll more likely get compliments than groans, and will probably be asked to demonstrate how to tie one.

Bet you won't be the only BT wearer, either


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## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

Along the same lines, I don't think it's an age-specific phenomenon, but rather a generation-specific one. The current grandfather generation always wore bowties (if at all); the current grandson generation always will (if at all). I suspect that by 'old' your girlfriend's mother meant mature, i.e., baby boomers, the current middle-age generation. Baby boomers in a position to attend a law firm Christmas party are generally settled into respectable professions, a situation which their upbringing (just speculating) has taught them does not mix with frippery such as bowties.

All in all I think your girlfriend's mother's assessment and advice ought to be heeded: you don't want to stick out.

(But in general, bring on bowties 2.0, I say. I'm all for it.)


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit (Dec 25, 2008)

Wear it like you forgot about it, and you'll be fine.


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm 34 and wear bowties a couple of times a month as a change of pace. If I could wear bows everyday without becoming "bowtie guy" I probably would because they are much easier to forget about than a "normal" tie - I never have to adjust my bow during the day, but every time I sit down I have to shift my long ties, adjust them, worry about dragging them through food, etc.

In this case, your girlfriend's mother is probably giving you sound advice - if there's any question about the appropriateness of a bow, then play it safe and wear a long tie.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I think it is always a mistake to characterize a particular style, with a specific age group. Speaking as a member of (perhaps) the older generation, I find it rather refreshing to see younger men wearing bows and, by-golly, I hope to be able to join in the fun...someday!


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## The Raven (Nov 7, 2006)

I tend to agree with you D&S. In my mind if the number of bow ties is on the Y axis and the age of the wearer is on the X axis , then it is something of an upside down bell curve. I think maybe this graph might be the GTH factor rather than the Bow Tie Curve. Again, just my opinion, but there is a GTH attitude when one wears a bow tie.


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## D&S (Mar 29, 2009)

The Raven said:


> I tend to agree with you D&S. In my mind if the number of bow ties is on the Y axis and the age of the wearer is on the X axis , then it is something of an upside down bell curve. I think maybe this graph might be the GTH factor rather than the Bow Tie Curve. Again, just my opinion, but there is a GTH attitude when one wears a bow tie.


This is exactly what I'm getting at. I have no problem standing out in general, but when specifically told not to wear a bow tie by the host - actually, her daughter - and given that a bow tie gives off the exact attitude Raven describes, I'm going to play it safe. But I did think the perception that bow ties were not for "old" people was interesting and worth mentioning on this board.

From my experience, the young bow tie wearers are usually guys in fraternities/eating clubs at preppier northern colleges (Princeton and Trinity) and schools where a Southern tradition predominates: UVA, Sewanee, H-SC, W&L, and SEC schools. Well, maybe not so much at Florida - those guys like their jorts.

Again, in my experience, more often than not, young bow tie wearers are also reactionary conservatives. Consciously choosing to wear a bow tie is to return to old ways and reject new fashions that the wearer associates with pop culture, Hollywood, hipsters, liberalism, etc. I'm generalizing, but that's part of their appeal to me, at least.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

As someone who loves bow ties, I'd say wear it if you want to. If you don't act like you want people to go to hell, your tie won't give that impression. Any "GTH attitude" is that of the observer.

The problem is that no one wants to be seen as dressing differently, so something that should be perfectly normal is seen as abnormal. 

Break the vicious cycle. I wouldn't tell you to do it if YOU didn't want to, but don't let anyone else (esp your GF's mother) dress you.


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## DownByTheRiverSide (Oct 25, 2009)

*I learned a long time ago . . .*

There is a quote (and I now forget where from) that a man should keep his own counsel, and no where is this truer than on the matter of his dressing, assuming he has tolerable taste.

I may ask another man what he thinks of something (and that is very rare) but I simply dont ask women. I find that while I can trust their opinions of a variety of subjects, that most ladies dont have the faintest idea of how a man should dress, and that even applies to ladies who in my opinion dress very well themselves.

I wish you had simply not asked the question and worn the bow tie that it seems you actually had hoped to wear.

So, next time, dont ask, dont tell, just show up in your bow tie and have fun. Some at the event will be puzzled or confused, and others will enjoy it and respect you for it, and often wish they had worn one, too. (I am assuming you are meaning a tie you tie yourself.) And, as someone else mentioned, you will be asked how do you actually tie it, so be prepared.

I might add that I am approximately 50 years old and that I have worn bow ties for my entire life. I specifically choose when I wear them, either by the event, or occasionally just by my mood, but never more than about 5-7% of the time. I am a tie lover in general, but bow ties are definitely my favorites.



D&S said:


> I'm going to my girlfriend's dad's law firm's Christmas party on Friday and I asked her tonight what I should wear. Her mom suggested I wear a suit since everyone would be coming from work or alternatively, a blazer and gray flannels. I said I'd wear the blazer and flannels and asked her if I could get away with wearing a bow tie. She told me that everyone was "old" so they wouldn't be wearing bow ties, and that I shouldn't either. This is news to me - I always associated bow ties with older people. It got me thinking that a lot of people our age (early-20's) wear bow ties too, but for some reason I can't picture as many middle-aged people (say, 30-50) wearing them. Am I correct in seeing an age-gap here? Do I put my bow ties into a time capsule on my 30th birthday not to be opened again for 20 years, when I can pull them off again? I'm kidding, but do bow ties really become that much less common during the years that people are in the prime of their careers?
> 
> For what it's worth, I'm going with a 3/2 blazer, gray flannels, blue OCBD, red wool tartan tie, black leather belt, and black bit loafers.
> 
> EDIT: Not to say that you can't be in the prime of your career after 50 - I mean more like the point when you can start doing what you want because you don't have to impress a boss anymore.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

DownByTheRiverSide said:


> ...I may ask another man what he thinks of something (and that is very rare) but I simply dont ask women. I find that while I can trust their opinions of a variety of subjects, that most ladies dont have the faintest idea of how a man should dress, and that even applies to ladies who in my opinion dress very well themselves.


Couldn't disagree more! If I had to choose between canvassing men or women on my choice of clothing, it's no contest. The women win.

Sure, the guys on this board know better than most guys and I continue to learn from them. But I've gained much by tempering and modulating my tradly inspirations with the advice of good women. The men in my unextraordinary circles outside this board are totally unhelpful.

I'll give you this: Don't ask anyone (male or female) what WOULD look on you, or what you SHOULD wear. They have no bloody idea; they can't picture it mentally. You simply have to wear it and see what happens.

In the spirit of trial and error, do it. Wear the bow tie!


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## DownByTheRiverSide (Oct 25, 2009)

*Naturally, the only . . .*



Joe Beamish said:


> Couldn't disagree more! If I had to choose between canvassing men or women on my choice of clothing, it's no contest. The women win.
> 
> The rare guy I would ask would naturally be one whose taste I already know and admire. The guy I consult about adjusting the timing on my car would not be one I ask about clothes, not that I dont have great respect for him in general.


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## D&S (Mar 29, 2009)

Once again, I'm not asking if a young person can pull off a bow tie, or even if I should wear one to this particular party. I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing one tomorrow night after being told not to, especially since I don't know the parents very well. At this point it's an issue of deferring to the host; I think she means for me to fit in since I'm in law school myself, and I really didn't get the impression she was trying to dress me. Honestly, she probably has as much of a clue about what the men wear to work as I do about what their secretaries wear, and I wouldn't be surprised to see people there in bow ties. (Still, I wish I hadn't asked.) It was the association of bow ties with young - not old - men that was fascinating to me here.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

As other posters have intimated, I think there has been something of a push to make bow ties seem hip to the young. If you check out the Ralph Lauren Rugby Web site, the folks at Rugby are attempting to sell bows as cool for the high school/college crowd. Hence Rugby dresses up its models in bow ties and jeans, and various other odd assortments: e.g.,

https://www.rugby.com/shop/item.aspx?productId=3757397&categoryId=3372178&cp=3138868

To be honest, though, I am not sure that this is really catching on, perhaps because bow ties are so strongly associated with older men. Of course, I only have anecdotal evidence to support this contention. Maybe people who live in, say, NYC see youngsters sporting bows all the time.

I still recall (with some horror) John Stewart hectoring Tucker Carlson about wearing a bow on "Crossfire." You're in your thirties, he brayed: why are you wearing a bow?

Nowadays, it seems as if Carlson no longer wears a bow tie.


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## sowilson (Jul 27, 2009)

D&S said:


> I'm going to my girlfriend's dad's law firm's Christmas party on Friday and I asked her tonight what I should wear. Her mom suggested I wear a suit since everyone would be coming from work or alternatively, a blazer and gray flannels. I said I'd wear the blazer and flannels and asked her if I could get away with wearing a bow tie. She told me that everyone was "old" so they wouldn't be wearing bow ties, and that I shouldn't either.


You're GF's mom is making a classic mistake of confusing observation with causation which is another reason why you should not generally seek advice from women on what is appropriate to wear. Advice on color, pattern, coordination yes - type of article, no. She's stating that old people don't wear bow-ties which is confusing what she observes about her husbands co-workers attire (no bow-ties) with what she believes to be the cause (they're old). Poppycock. There are many reasons why her husbands co-workers aren't seen to be wearing bow-ties in her presence, some of which are;

1) They don't own any.
2) They own them but don't know how to tie them (daunting at first until you search for a youtube video then you dope slap yourself).
3) They don't wear them on occasions when she would see them.
4) They're lawyers and few lawyers in the firm (or city, region, etc) don't wear them (professional culture related).

All of which says nothing about age, socioeconomic status, or the approprietness of wearing a bow-tie during a festive occasion by someone outside of the firm. The information of value that you gathered from her was that the party would be attended by people in their work attire - mainly suits. Not a formal event, so business wear, or smart casual would be appropriate. A bow-tie would be acceptable.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Here's a bit of a fashion op-ed with some interesting links. Semi-contrarian conclusion: "Bow ties are a completely appropriate, unremarkable piece of professional clothing."


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## The Swede (Aug 26, 2008)

Taken from the comments section:

"Bow ties have occasionally enjoyed a brief renaissance in the last half-century (notably during the “preppy” era) before taking their rightful place: stuffed in the back of the dresser drawer with the cuff links, shoehorn and mustache comb. Apparently we are experiencing another short rebirth.

There are times when a man must absolutely wear a bow tie, such as formal wear. Otherwise they are taboo. Here’s why:

Most men hate wearing ties; they’re hard to tie, they’re uncomfortable and, since tie tacks/clips, etc. have vanished, if you’re not careful you’ll get them in your food –hence the fashion statement of men tossing the end of their tie over their shoulder at meals, a maneuver that says: “No matter how mature and powerful I am, I have the table manners of a 6-year-old.”

And men being men, most would wear the same tie forever (and probably just slip it off over their heads rather than retie it every day) if it weren’t for the whims of fashion (wide-thin-wide-thin-wide-thin-wide-thin).

The discomfort and the matter of tying a complicated knot on oneself are only compounded with bow ties, which are nearly impossible to tie (I’ve tried … with a Harvard bow tie, no less) and as uncomfortable as a regular tie. As a result, very few men wear them.

In the ancient era when I was young (the 1950s and early ’60s), little boys were given bow ties until they were old enough to wear regular ties — of course, being the ancient era, these were clip-ons. Having your dad show you how to tie a necktie was as much a rite of passage as learning to drive.

About the only adult male from that era who wore a bow tie was the father in the “Dennis the Menace” cartoon strip, which speaks volumes about them.

In the years that followed, neckties went through many iterations (wide-thin, paisley, stripes, dots, black, long, short, you name it). I quit wearing a tie to the office years ago and they have just about vanished from my workplace, even among top management.

So what does all this say about the bow tie? Well think about who wears them regularly: Men like Dennis the Menace’s dad. Men who want to show off by sending the message that “I can tie this complicated torture device on myself,” “I’m a nonconformist” and “I don’t care if I look comical and eccentric.”

In other words, men who wear bow ties are sending the message that: “I’m a showoff, I’m a maverick, I’m eccentric and I don’t care what people think.”

Think about it: Ever seen Cary Grant in a bow tie? Would you want to?"

:icon_pale:

I find this depressing...


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

- - - her opinion

Wear them if you like; be skeptical if it's important to "fit in."


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

The Swede said:


> I find this depressing...


I find it idiotic.

Edit: Also a good deal of it is not grounded in fact (ties are not uncomfortable when one wears the proper sized shirt collar, tie bars & clips still exist, etc.)


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## sowilson (Jul 27, 2009)

The Swede said:


> In other words, men who wear bow ties are sending the message that: "I'm a showoff, I'm a maverick, I'm eccentric and I don't care what people think."


If you can tie a shoe, you can tie a bow-tie - it's the same knot. Those who can't tie a bow-tie should only wear shoes with velcro straps.


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## Kurt N (Feb 11, 2009)

Coleman said:


> I find it idiotic.
> 
> Edit: Also a good deal of it is not grounded in fact (ties are not uncomfortable when one wears the proper sized shirt collar, tie bars & clips still exist, etc.)


Dang, you guys are a glass-half-empty crowd! Do remember that the piece itself is pro-bow-tie, even if some of the reader comments are anti.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

The Swede said:


> Taken from the comments section:
> 
> "Bow ties have occasionally enjoyed a brief renaissance in the last half-century (notably during the "preppy" era) before taking their rightful place: stuffed in the back of the dresser drawer with the cuff links, shoehorn and mustache comb. Apparently we are experiencing another short rebirth.
> 
> ...


I hear this all the time.

Cary Grant DID wear them, ironically, when he was younger but decided it wasn't "his look." If you believe there's a "right" and "wrong" style, and that since Cary Grant had the right look (which he certainly did) anything he didn't do must be satorially verbotten.

A better way to look at this is that Cary Grant chose his own style, and didn't let the style of the times set it for him. Choosing to wear a bow tie today is a Cary Grant move - setting one's own style.

If others perceive you as a maverick, it's because THEY don't know any better. I'm not going to let others' ignorance guide me (and I only care what educated people think).

Here's my fellow University of Michigan grad on the subject:



> "To me, it characterizes someone who is well rounded, who can speak to someone in Outer Mongolia or downtown Chicago. They don't limit themselves by the people who surround them."


Oh yeah, he's not some nerdy corporate lawyer like your's truly. He's an NFL star:

https://www.latimes.com/features/image/la-ig-diary29-2009nov29,0,1598194.story


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

Kurt N said:


> Dang, you guys are a glass-half-empty crowd! Do remember that the piece itself is pro-bow-tie, even if some of the reader comments are anti.


:icon_smile_big: Well, I was responding to the negative feedback that was depressing The Swede (not the article). I don't even wear bowties, but I also don't think there is anything wrong with them.


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## mfs (Mar 1, 2009)

I mediate lawsuits here in San Diego and other major and minor cities in California. I wear bowties, khakis and argyle socks every day. I am busy as hell, I get referrals because people, even from 10 years ago, recall I wear bowties, and the gals love them. :icon_smile_big:


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## blastandcast (Nov 29, 2006)

I am in my early 40s and wear bow ties occassionally. Couple of friends who also wear them are in their 40s as well. There are times when I wouldn't wear one say to court or when the weight shoots up and the tie draws too much attention to my second chin. But the issue is the situation and not my age. I actually didn't start wearing them until I was in my late 30s for what it is worth. If you like the ties then it doesn't matter how old you are. B&C


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

mfs said:


> and the gals love them. :icon_smile_big:


So I hear


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Totally forgot to ask the _really _important questions:

Is the girlfriend hot/serious?

Does the mom go from zero-to-witch in 3 seconds?

Do you want a job with the dad's firm or friends?

If yes to any of the above, go with the necktie.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

A serious girlfriend with a witchy mom and a dad that wants to buy you? 

Wear the bowtie and find the hot girlfriend who couldn't care less about the other stuff.


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

I've attended several big law firm holiday parties (as a guest) and there have always been men in bow ties there, including me. A holiday party is, after all, a festive occasion and as such you can usually have a little fun with the clothes. 

That said, though, you may not be as free as everyone else. As the boyfriend barely known to the parents, you're probably looking to ingratiate yourself with them-- probably best not to blatantly ignore the mother's advice after seeking it. Further, as a law student, you may be looking to network with future colleagues, mentors, etc.. Even though they may not find a bow tie off-putting, you'll need the father's help with them, so probably best not to insult his wife.  

If it's any consolation, soon enough you'll be free to wear whatever you want to the holiday party- at YOUR law firm.


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## D&S (Mar 29, 2009)

K Street said:


> I've attended several big law firm holiday parties (as a guest) and there have always been men in bow ties there, including me. A holiday party is, after all, a festive occasion and as such you can usually have a little fun with the clothes.
> 
> That said, though, you may not be as free as everyone else. As the boyfriend barely known to the parents, you're probably looking to ingratiate yourself with them-- probably best not to blatantly ignore the mother's advice after seeking it. Further, as a law student, you may be looking to network with future colleagues, mentors, etc.. Even though they may not find a bow tie off-putting, you'll need the father's help with them, so probably best not to insult his wife.


Haha all of this is true, thank you for the sound advice.



K Street said:


> If it's any consolation, soon enough you'll be free to wear whatever you want to the holiday party- at YOUR law firm.


I hope so!


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Now that I've actually read the original post, I retract the bow tie reco for this particular event. Once that you asked the girlfriend and received a "no", the bow tie became an albatross. 

Otherwise I agree with several posters. If you like your bow tie and wear it with confidence -- along with your other good graces -- you'll carry it off swimmingly at the next occasion regardless of your age.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

First rule of coping with the bureaucracy of a large law firm: forgiveness is easier to get than permission. 

Hopefully this will teach you - don't ask.


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## turban1 (May 29, 2008)

*please whom?*

whom are you trying to please? how about your girlfriend's mother...


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

My girlfriend's mothers ask me what to wear, not the other way around.


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