# " Confessions of an Ivy League Frat Boy: Inside Dartmouth's Hazing Abuses"



## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

https://www.rollingstone.com/cultur...-dartmouths-hazing-abuses-20120328?print=true


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Jeeze louise, what kind of high school senior scores a 2190 on his/her SAT's...and then goes on to college to swim in a "kiddie pool filled with vomit, urine, fecal matter, semen, and rotten food products." For sure, that's scary smart! 

Seriously, reading the article, one has to question the sanity of those administering, as well as of those participating in such activities!


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

eagle2250 said:


> Jeeze louise, what kind of high school senior scores a 2190 on his/her SAT's...and then goes on to college to swim in a "kiddie pool filled with vomit, urine, fecal matter, semen, and rotten food products." For sure, that's scary smart!
> 
> Seriously, reading the article, one has to question the sanity of those administering, as well as of those participating in such activities!


SAT scores, for most people, say a great deal more about ability to take the SATs than anything else.

The priorities change for a lot of people, in my experience: the kids who wanted to do well in high school (get good grades / into a good school) then want to "do well" at college, (get drunker than anybody else and be more crazy).


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## upthewazzu (Nov 3, 2011)

eagle2250 said:


> Seriously, reading the article, one has to question the sanity of those administering, as well as of those participating in such activities!


I never understood the Greek culture. It all seemed a bit perverse and way too ****-erotic for me. To each his own, I guess.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Somehow I find myself a little more tolerant toward darts and pleats now.


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## Atterberg (Mar 11, 2012)

I can attest to the inanity of greek culture. I don't understand it either.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I've never quite seen the point of joining a fraternity. Being debased and humiliated was just part of everyday life growing up in my neighborhood. No need at all.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

upthewazzu said:


> I never understood the Greek culture. It all seemed a bit perverse and way too ****-erotic for me. To each his own, I guess.


It's cute that "upthewazzu" won't type ****.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Frat boys get the cute girls.


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## upthewazzu (Nov 3, 2011)

Trip English said:


> It's cute that "upthewazzu" won't type ****.


I did, but the system blocked it. Sorry to disappoint.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

xcubbies said:


> Frat boys get the cute girls.


They get the girls who want to date frat boys... That's a definite "type."


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Fraternities were illegal where I went to school and cute girls might have gone for guys with good grades if they'd had any energy to date after studying 24/7. Mostly I think they just decided, "I want _that_ one" and vacuumed him up before he knew what was going on.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

xcubbies said:


> Frat boys get the cute girls.


LOL. I've been fortunate to date some very pretty ladies in my life. My wife and I went out on our fist date 40 years ago...she was beautiful back then and I find her to be drop dead gorgeous to this day. However, the good Lord has yet to create the girl cute enough, including my wife, to convince me to do laps in a kiddie pool filled with vomit, etc., just to be able to go out with her! :crazy:


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> They get the girls who want to date frat boys... That's a definite "type."


The type who are good looking.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> Fraternities were illegal where I went to school and cute girls might have gone for guys with good grades if they'd had any energy to date after studying 24/7. Mostly I think they just decided, "I want _that_ one" and vacuumed him up before he knew what was going on.


In my case, her friends did that to us both before we realized what was going on. And Cowtown, I guess the type of girls who want to date frat boys are your type. That's fine, though I have to admit they aren't really mine.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I question the veracity of many elements of that story.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> In my case, her friends did that to us both before we realized what was going on.


It's nice when your friends look out for you . . . :cool2:


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I sometimes regret not pledging, mostly because I wanted to get into another organization at UT that's hugely greek and almost impossible to get into from outside the greek world. There were some weird and awful pledging activities when I was there, though -- crap filled pools occurred, as did cattle prodding pledges, hot ironing one's hand, throwing darts at them, etc... Before I got there, one fraternity was known for dropping you off in Mexico sans-passport (really happened) and locking you in a closet for 24hrs.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

When I was in college, the Betas were said to make every pledge class adopt a puppy, and during hell week, to kill and eat it. Widely believed, totally untrue.

At my house, pledges were told that every brother was branded with the fraternity branding iron, on the bottom of his foot. They were blindfolded, and a piece of ice was applied to the foot as the hot branding iron was plunged into hamburger. A large bandage was slapped on. Most limped for a day or two. That's more like the kind of thing that went on at Fiji in the 60s.


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## M Go Crimson (Aug 20, 2011)

The Rambler said:


> When I was in college, the Betas were said to make every pledge class adopt a puppy, and during hell week, to kill and eat it. Widely believed, totally untrue.


There's still a fraternity on every campus that "does" this. It remains totally untrue.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

And the President, Kim, just says "Hey, what can I do?" and assures the alums he's one of the boys. A real class act.

BTW, I have neither evidence of any hazing, nor opinion on Lohse's veracity. It's just that a college President who says he's powerless to do anything about campus problems is a farce.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I think I found some of the garb worn by pledges at the thrift store today.


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## paulurfi (Mar 22, 2012)

And then there's this: 
Dartmouth Frat Brothers Cleared of Hazing Charges

There's also an article on The Dartmouth complete with comments.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Paulurfi: Thanks for a timly update and welcome to the forum! Looking forward to reading your future postings.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

"A week after Lohse's column was published, more than 100 faculty members wrote to the administration, describing hazing as an "open secret" and calling on the administration to set up an independent commission to address it. The college has since formed a task, and administrators say they see hazing as part of a larger problem, tied together with binge drinking and sexual assault. They point to the National College Health Improvement Project the college launched last year as one of the steps they've taken to address all three."

I'll believe it when I see it.


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

The Rambler said:


> When I was in college, the Betas were said to make every pledge class adopt a puppy, and during hell week, to kill and eat it. Widely believed, totally untrue.
> 
> At my house, pledges were told that every brother was branded with the fraternity branding iron, on the bottom of his foot. They were blindfolded, and a piece of ice was applied to the foot as the hot branding iron was plunged into hamburger. A large bandage was slapped on. Most limped for a day or two. That's more like the kind of thing that went on at Fiji in the 60s.


Outside of big brother/little brother drinking events, that was about the extent of hazing in my fraternity during the years I was an undergraduate at Ole Miss. One of the more interesting tasks that fell to me during "Hell Week" was that I had to procure a woman's nipple print in a jar of peanut butter. I was given one hour.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Stories like this are certainly the exception and not the rule. All national Fraternities take a hard line stance against hazing and rightly so. My Fraternity, Kappa Sigma, went so far as to outlaws simple scavenger hunts even if it includes Brothers. 

I'm sure hazing like that metioned in the OP does still go on, but not to the extent that everyong thinks it does. Heck, lately I think we're heard more hazing stories involving high school/college teams and bands than we have about Fraternities and Sororities.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Mississippi Mud said:


> Outside of big brother/little brother drinking events, that was about the extent of hazing in my fraternity during the years I was an undergraduate at Ole Miss. One of the more interesting tasks that fell to me during "Hell Week" was that I had to procure a woman's nipple print in a jar of peanut butter. I was given one hour.


Were you successful?


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm glad things are getting stamped out. We had some forced by law at UT after one major fraternity plea bargained out some fairly serious criminal charges (the stories I mentioned on the last page)


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

Cowtown said:


> Were you successful?


Quite. I returned in twenty minutes holding a jar of creamy with a deep and clear impression in the formerly smooth top. So fast was my time that I was forgiven some of the more odious tasks later in the week.

My older brothers were forever convinced of my studliness, and I never had the heart to tell them that it was as easy as asking the RA's skanky 26 year old girlfriend. Actually, I think it turned her on.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

I was a Kappa Sigma. I have sense closed ties with that group because there were some events which violated regulations which I reported. Instead of being called a responsible adult I was termed "a traitor" and "disrespecting the brotherhood". 

Strangely enough, another brother did exactly what I did. We're good friends to this day (and Freemasons in the same lodge) and he is still involved in Kappa Sigma.

After I reported Kappa Sigma for violating rules such as drinking alcohol at events while on probation, the chapter was fined five thousand dollars. The leader of the chapter said, "We know you did it. Give me five grand and we'll call it even".

He never got one cent from me.

Thomas


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## Ekphrastic (Oct 4, 2009)

A buddy of mine actually participating in a ritual which--I guess--was featured in the movie _Old School_. (I never saw it.) They had to stand naked and blindfolded (never a good combination) on an elevated platform, tie a cinder block to their, uh, jewels, and then throw the cinder block off the platform.

The idea was that someone would sneak up behind them and cut the string that connected their body to the cinder block. They didn't know that, of course; my buddy said there was a lot of screaming when the order was given to throw.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Canadian said:


> I was a Kappa Sigma. I have sense closed ties with that group because there were some events which violated regulations which I reported. Instead of being called a responsible adult I was termed "a traitor" and "disrespecting the brotherhood".
> 
> Strangely enough, another brother did exactly what I did. We're good friends to this day (and Freemasons in the same lodge) and he is still involved in Kappa Sigma.
> 
> ...


Good on you. "Traitor"... "disrespecting the brotherhood"... what a riot. I'm sure your friend has his reasons, but I wouldn't want to stay in that fraternity.

Unrelated, but that sort of "you're a wimp" tactic reminds me of a recruiter who harassed me over Facebook, voicemail, AND text message after I told him I had come to a decision and wasn't interested in the Marines anymore. I could have reported it, as he called me all sorts of dirty words in addition to questioning my sexuality and manliness. (What wonderful things he's doing for the perception of the U.S. Marines.) I decided it wasn't worth it and let him eat static.


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## Regillus (Mar 15, 2011)

After reading the article linked to in the OP; the most troubling thing that I find in it is this:

"...If you take your academics seriously, you're not one of us."

Don't get me wrong; I'm not condoning fraternity hazing and I'm adamantly against it. However; when I attended college I took my studying very seriously and I spent most of my time doing that. No bars (only once, see infra), no movies, no girls, no hanging out with the guys; only once did I go out with a mixed group of friends to; of all places; a bowling alley; where we bowled for awhile and then went to a nearby bar for an hour or so. No, I spent most of my free time sitting at my desk with a book in front of me and papers strewn about. I have very high expectations for the people who "run the world." I want them to all be very smart Warren Buffett-types. I don't want the important issues in the world being decided by fraternity drunks who don't care about academics. Clearly the fraternities can't get away with serious physical abuse - that might leave marks; which would be evidence against them in court. So they engage in psychological abuse; which leaves no visible scars - but is no less harmful.

BTW: I didn't join a frat when I was in college. I just got a one-person room in a dorm.
I did join an honors society: Phi Theta Kappa. I went to exactly one meeting.

Addendum: Do you recall the book "The Wise Men"? The men who met with Pres. Truman after WWII and formulated the policy of communist containment? Can you imagine the disastrous consequences that could have resulted if some former Dartmouth frat boy who didn't care about academics had been present at those meetings to interject his "intoxicating nihilism" (from the article)?


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

I forwarded this to an '83 I know (not Tim Geithner) and I'm interested in hearing his opinion. I think he was a Kappa Sig.

SAE was banned from the University of Georgia for several years. The breaking point was, of all things, a fight that broke out at a fraternity-sponsored concert by Flock of Seagulls, more than a decade after they were relevant.

Full disclosure - I attended four different colleges and expressed no interest in joining a fraternity at any of them, not even honor fraternities that I could join with minimal interaction with the existing members.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

A few reactions.

One, the rate of sexual-assault reports at Dartmouth is disturbing. Without more context and information, it is difficult to draw conclusions. But, on the surface, that ain't cool. I would like to know more.

Secondly, this appears to be an object-lesson in the folly of drawing instant conclusions on most anything. In this day and age, there's just too much spin, nuance and demand for being all-knowing 30 seconds ago. We should remember this as we consider guns and hoodies--no one, at least no one in a position of responsibility, now knows enough to say anything definitive, yet there is no shortage of people saying definitive things.

Lastly, I never got the frat thing. They weren't a big deal at my college--the few frats there really were the stereotypical drunken jocks who knew how to score nitrous. That was the rep. I wonder whether any down-on-their-luck brothers ever got a job or loan from the bro's whose puke they once cleaned up.


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

I have found RS to be much like Wikipedia in the veracity of its content. RS has a decided editorial perspective and an obvious slant on many issues. So knowing that an article concerning hazing at Dartmouth appeared in the magazine automatically makes me skeptical. 

I am neither condoning nor dismissing any claims of hazing. But I would suggest that additional substantiation of the claims should be sought before judgment is rendered.

In my case I pledged a fraternity and enjoyed just about every minute of the undergraduate Greek experience. Some of my closest friends today are members of my chapter. 

My fraternity has provided me with ties that extend beyond the hallowed halls of my institution. I have received job offers and invitations to join clubs based upon my fraternity membership.

Understand that many employers specifically look for fraternity members when recruiting because it points to non academic achievements that can have just as much impact on shaping the individual as the effort required to get good grades. Also understand that at most schools, the top Greek organizations have higher GPAs than the general student body. Understand that at most schools, the top Greek organizations have the highest levels of participation in philanthropic activities among the student body. 

There is an old saying that "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy". Hazing is a reprehensible legacy. But you can learn just as much outside of the classroom as you can in it. And in many ways the Greek experience is great training for real life.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I was a fraternity man. I enjoyed every minute of it. I was hazed plenty. The thing is, for the most part, while hazing certainly exists to some extent in every fraternity, very few people are willing to risk jail time or expulsion for the sake of having fun. The definition of hazing has been stretched to include things like learning the history of an organization, study halls, community service, etc. Basically, if you require a pledge to do it, it is considered hazing. Not to condone the actions in the article, but 99% of hazing incidents amount to absolutely no more than the teasing that takes place between you and your good friends on a daily basis. 

I'll bet most of you have made plenty of contests out of stupidity. "You won't take a shot of tobasco, you woman."

I got hazed way worse on my rugby team than in my fraternity because there is way less risk of getting sued by making the new guy take a shot of mustard and bourbon out of his own shoe between wind sprints when you're in adult club sports league than when you're in an organization that is constantly under the microscope for the same such incidents.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Canadian said:


> After I reported Kappa Sigma for violating rules such as drinking alcohol at events while on probation...


Double secret probation??


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## Drew Bernard (Feb 19, 2009)

Can a moderator provide an explanation as to why this topic is on the Trad Forum and not on The Interchange?


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