# Pinky Signet Rings



## Allthingstrad (Jan 5, 2006)

I noticed one of the characters in Woody Allen's film Matchpoint wore a signet ring on his pinky finger (a great film, by the way). I know this has been discussed on the board in the past, and I know that these rings are very very trad. I have a graduation rings from my prep school and college that feature school crests (tastefully--no large stones, just 14k gold). I wear them occasionally, but I am thinking about purchasing a pinky ring. Does anyone here wear them often? What are the rules with wearing such jewelry, and what is the history of the pinky signet? General thoughts?

"Since it's a traditional, preppy look it's best if balanced by a relatively small four-in-hand knot." He sips his martini, recrossing his legs. "Next question?"


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

My dad had one made in Taxco, Mexico, in silver. I don't wear it often as it looks too big on my hands. My dad, had large hands and it looked Ok on him. I did inherit my dad's exquisite pinky ring with a star saphire. He was given the ring by my mother on their 25th anniversary. He didn't wear it often because it was so small on his hands, I wear it occasionally. I generally don't wear any jewelry, except wedding ring, so it is only on rare occasion for me to wear a pinky ring. I do like them, even though I think they are kind of fussy.
Cheers

Edit for spelling.


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

UK - Yes US - No. And I'm not sure if a signet ring is Trad. It really is a bad idea here in the states. Hence, the reason you saw it on the character in Matchpoint. He's in London and he's rich. And it's old gentile money.

Don't try this if you live in Lincoln Nebraske, are poor and are Jewish.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

pinky signet ring is very U British, not trad. The royals seem to wear them on the left pinky. I wear a signet (Scottish crest) on my right ring finger. 
Pinky signet - too affected for US
Pinky w stone etc - too ethnic shall we say

Cheers


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> pinky signet ring is very U British, not trad. The royals seem to wear them on the left pinky. I wear a signet (Scottish crest) on my right ring finger.
> Pinky signet - too affected for US
> ...


LMAO -


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

I would say that the 'rule' is that if you are required to wear one by virtue of a hereditary or religious title, then by all means, do so. 

Otherwise, I'd stay away from that look and seal your letters the plebian way rather than with hot wax.


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## floutist (Jan 9, 2006)

Rat Pack City. Love 'em! Especially when worn with black trousers. Or perhaps, with navy. The original version of Oceans 11, fairly reeks of pinky rings. []


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by tintin_
> 
> UK - Yes US - No. And I'm not sure if a signet ring is Trad. It really is a bad idea here in the states. Hence, the reason you saw it on the character in Matchpoint. He's in London and he's rich. And it's old gentile money.
> 
> Don't try this if you live in Lincoln Nebraske, are poor and are Jewish.


agree - I would love to wear one, but I really think that if you didn't inherit it, it makes no sense. I have 2 or 3 friends in Europe who have them, one wears a 16th century stone.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

In the US this is an affectation that belongs in the trashbins of history. Forget it. 

If you want to wear a ring other than a wedding ring, wear it on the right ring finger. 

Super Bowl Championship, World Series and NBA Championship rings and similar NCAA rings look great, no matter how big and gaudy. Otherwise stick to a small school ring or other simple gem. 

Whatever you do remember the rule of 7's. No more than 7 eye catching points, including watches, rings, pocket squares, etc.


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## Drinking and Drafting (Jun 23, 2005)

Unless your name is Vito and your idea of trad is a wifebeater with suspenders, DON'T DO IT. 
A note of interest: when architects in Canada receive their certification, they are given a silver pinky ring with to wear on their drafting hand. I suppose that might be an acceptable excuse.

_ "Any man honored by both his enemies and his compatriots is a man worthy of our closest attentions - for in him you may be sure to find authenticity. After all, authenticity is the rarest of all human traits."_

- Samuel Johnson


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I wear a small gold signet pinky. Right hand. Family crest. Scratched up. 

Cheers,
Harris


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## Goblin (Jan 31, 2006)

Is it some sort of "trad" badge to point out that one's items are beat-up?


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> I wear a small gold signet pinky. Right hand. Family crest. Scratched up.


Similar, save on the left. Nothing wrong with it, gng8.


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Some years ago I worked for Johnson and Higgins. It was a privatly held and very waspy insurance broker. I met a few of the "Partners" in the NY office. And what an office it was. Anyway, it was the 1st time I saw American men with pinky signet rings.

They dressed right outta Savile Row and I swear to God if there was one lock jaw accent there musta been 20. Being from Chicago I thought it odd that these men, many from New Jersey, looked and behaved so very English. Years later a wonderful man told me, "Dress British. Think Yidish." 

These "Partners" sold J&H to Marsh for $1.8 bn. Despite it being private for over 100 years. Charming guys. I hope you were not one of 'em, Harris.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

"...many from New Jersey, looked and behaved so very English"


Interesting quote. A la Tom Kean, former governor of NJ and president of Drew. Lots of New Jersey patricians, no doubt about it. Rumor has it you'll see more see more Harris Tweed and chinoed trads driving their scratched up Jaguar XJ6's in the Basking Ridge-Bedminster-Bernardsville area than in Greenwich, CT. 

Wouldn't surprise me.

Cheers,
Harris


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

That sounds reasonable given the extent to which hedgefunders have taken over southern CT.



> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> "...many from New Jersey, looked and behaved so very English"
> 
> ...


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## Allthingstrad (Jan 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gng8_
> 
> Whatever you do remember the rule of 7's. No more than 7 eye catching points, including watches, rings, pocket squares, etc.


Explain further. Why 7?

"Since it's a traditional, preppy look it's best if balanced by a relatively small four-in-hand knot." He sips his martini, recrossing his legs. "Next question?"


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## Jaguar (Feb 12, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> "...many from New Jersey, looked and behaved so very English"
> Rumor has it you'll see more see more Harris Tweed and chinoed trads driving their scratched up Jaguar XJ6's in the Basking Ridge-Bedminster-Bernardsville area than in Greenwich, CT.


Hmmm...lost of commutes through and around those NJ areas not long ago when I-78 was backed up.

Jaguar wasn't particularly well represented. More of the stiff 'power-money' saloons than elegant Jags -- big M-Bs and such. Porsche seemed to be the sportscar of choice. If you saw a Jag out that way would be the XK8 or XKR, followed by the S-Type, and the prevalence of Jags increased slightly in Peapack-Gladstone, and moreso further north in Chester, Mendham, and the other affluent suburbs of Morristown. Older money, I presume.

Now if you were to head out further east to the Livingston, Short Hills and Madison area, you'd be where the exotics come out to play -- Ferraris and Lambos, mainly. Interesting that there was a big Jag dealer in Madison, though I don't know if it is still there. Head southeast to the beautiful little enclave of Millburn, which had my favorite wine shop of all, the greatest incidence of Astons in my experience, and a Lambo dealer (though it closed in the late eighties).

Can't say much about CT.

Regards,
Jaguar

-------------
"Courtesy is every man's own affair, but decency is a debt to life."


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

When I was working at Lloyd's an underwriter came over to me with an atlas of the US opened to NJ. He pointed to Short Hills and asked me if the locals might ever riot..."you know. Like they did in Newark."


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Yes; gold, little finger of left hand, with my heraldic badge.


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Goblin_
> 
> Is it some sort of "trad" badge to point out that one's items are beat-up?


No. It's a trad badge to _have_ beat-up items. However, pointing out the characteristics of your items is the point of this forum.

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man.


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## Seaforth (Apr 12, 2005)

Yes, right hand, put it on the day I was commissioned. Regimental crest SHC,( Seaforth Highlanders of Canada.)

Cheers

Brad

Time flys like an arrow, fruit flies like bananas...


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jaguar_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Old $ still in Mendham?

No way.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

Not all signet rings are engraved with heraldic arms. These are rings that I saw at an engravers, where I am having some cufflinks and business cards engraved.



The engraver who made these also engraved Prince Charles investiture signet ring.

Aus_MD


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Aus_MD_
> 
> Not all signet rings are engraved with heraldic arms. These are rings that I saw at an engravers, where I am having some cufflinks and business cards engraved.
> 
> ...


Excellent work, particularly the ring with the stones. Does he have a web site?


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## Vladimir Berkov (Apr 19, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tintin_
> 
> When I was working at Lloyd's an underwriter came over to me with an atlas of the US opened to NJ. He pointed to Short Hills and asked me if the locals might ever riot..."you know. Like they did in Newark."


Haha! I grew up in Short Hills, and I can just imagine it!


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

I wear one (ancestral) - left hand, little finger - with my wedding band on the same finger.

It's pretty common in the UK and i've even seen a few examples in Asia of the same.



Vik


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Tomasso_
> 
> Excellent work, particularly the ring with the stones. Does he have a web site?


Here is the site, and here is another example of John's work.

Aus_MD


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Signet rings were traditionally issued on a son's twenty-first birthday by his father (but nowadays on the eighteenth birthday) and should only be worn on ones left-hand little finger. It is a British tradition that has lasted thousands of years and the engraving is really only valid if it is a genuine family crest, since it's use was to confirm the validation of the wearer's identity on important documents with sealing wax.

Without wishing to project myself here with any pompous airs, and those on the forum who have met me I know will confirm this, I would only add that I was indeed issued with mine on my eighteenth birthday and wore it continuously for thirty years, but now choose to wear it very occasionally, being the modest fellow that I am! Here it shows the impression which shows my crest engraved in reverse on the ring and positive on the wax.


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## feesimple (Feb 2, 2006)

If you read Jilly Cooper's book, 'Class', she argues that the signet ring is an upper middle class phenomenon, and an attempt to mimick the style of the upper class aristo.

As for Matchpoint, which I also enjoyed, the Brits were typical upper middle class, not upper class. Money, top public school, home in the country....The ring was a perfect identifier.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> Signet rings were traditionally issued on a son's twenty-first birthday by his father (but nowadays on the eighteenth birthday) and should only be worn on ones left-hand little finger. It is a British tradition that has lasted thousands of years and the engraving is really only valid if it is a genuine family crest, since it's use was to confirm the validation of the wearer's seal on important documents with sealing wax.
> 
> Without wishing to project myself here with any pompous airs, and those on the forum who have met me I know will confirm this, I would only add that I was indeed issued with mine on my eighteenth birthday and wore it continuously for thirty years, but now choose to wear it very occasionally, being the modest fellow that I am! Here it shows the impression which shows my crest engraved in reverse on the ring and positive on the wax.


While I agree that one should not use an armorial crest inappropriately, I do not agree that only the armigerous are entitled to use seals and signets. Ecclesiastical seals were commonplace. The use of non-armigerous signets was frequent until the development of gummed envelopes, and pre-dated, by millennia, heraldic arms. I own a roman itaglio carnelian ring, which is 2000 years old. It is a signet ring.

Anyone of English decent can petition the College of Arms for granting of Arms, and each year about 100 are issued.

BTW, there is no such thing as a family crest - arms belong to an individual.

Aus_MD


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Where does an American discover his family crest - I imagine that there it's something more sophisticated than the kiosk in the mall but couldn't imagine what that would be...



> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I wear a small gold signet pinky. Right hand. Family crest. Scratched up.
> 
> ...


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by feesimple_
> 
> If you read Jilly Cooper's book, 'Class', she argues that the signet ring is an upper middle class phenomenon, and an attempt to mimick the style of the upper class aristo.
> 
> As for Matchpoint, which I also enjoyed, the Brits were typical upper middle class, not upper class. Money, top public school, home in the country....The ring was a perfect identifier.


Lots of stuff that upper middle class Americans do is an attempt to imitate British aristocrats. No "breaking news" there. Frankly, I'd rather we imitate certain British aristocrats than European entepeneurs, complete with Beemer and Armani suit.


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## rudiddy (Aug 10, 2005)

I agree with tintin. 

In Detroit, a pinky signet ring would likely be regarded as a Mafioso affectation or ghetto bling - at best, as trying too hard, at worst, as unmanly.

Conversely, a signet may be considered culturally appropriate and thus credible, if worn by a Brit living here.

I'm personally indifferent except to the extent that perception does matter.


Patty


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Aus_MD_
> 
> Not all signet rings are engraved with heraldic arms. These are rings that I saw at an engravers, where I am having some cufflinks and business cards engraved.
> 
> ...


The 2 buttons/cufflinks? on the right are certainly heraldic


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Cantabrigian_
> 
> Where does an American discover his family crest - I imagine that there it's something more sophisticated than the kiosk in the mall but couldn't imagine what that would be...
> 
> ...


You do not have one despite what the guy at the kiosk in the mall says. You can however petition the heraldic authorities in the country where your paternal ancestry originates in order to achieve one of your own. For you, not for everyone you are related to with the same surname.

You can also just find some non-heraldic design you like an wear that. It will be a lot cheaper, petitioning for arms is no small undertaking.

I have found these folks excellent source for such jewelry whichever you decide:


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> You do not have one despite what the guy at the kiosk in the mall says. You can however petition the heraldic authorities in the country where your paternal ancestry originates in order to achieve one of your own. For you, not for everyone you are related to with the same surname.
> 
> You can also just find some non-heraldic design you like an wear that. It will be a lot cheaper, petitioning for arms is no small undertaking.
> ...


As with most things, blanket statements don't apply. A classmate (very trad guy; I referred him to AAAC a couple of years ago, wonder if he ever followed through...) did some research to ensure that his family arms were his right to wear. The only break in continuity was about 6 generations back where there was no male heir, so he made the tenuous connection that it passed from father to daughter to son. He decided that that anomaly, along with being the younger son, would not keep him from wearing the ring.

And that's just England. Any blood relation to an Irish clan allows you to display that clan's coat of arms. Italian and Spanish rules are similar and bloodlines are nearly impossible to research. I'm not familiar with other countries, but it is certainly possible to have a right to display or wear a coat of arms without knowing about your right.

Tom


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## cpac (Mar 25, 2005)

I was given my signet ring by my parents on my 18th birthday and wear it (constantly) on my right ring finger. I has the family crest and motto.

My general thought would be: if you wear a signet ring, do it because that is what is done in your family and for no other reason.

*------------
cpac*


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Given the postings on this thread there certainly are an awful lot of "ethnic" or Canadien architects on this board - LOL [8D]
Cheers


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

different type of ring, but my wife has a 2000 year old greek gem ring, a seal with a scene of the worship of eros, which she wears. this would have been used by a roman for the same purpose as a signat. such stones are more accessible than you might think.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I agree with Jilly and feesimple signet rings should not be worn in UK unless you are a boxer, football manager or nightclub owner.



> quote:_Originally posted by feesimple_
> 
> If you read Jilly Cooper's book, 'Class', she argues that the signet ring is an upper middle class phenomenon, and an attempt to mimick the style of the upper class aristo.
> 
> As for Matchpoint, which I also enjoyed, the Brits were typical upper middle class, not upper class. Money, top public school, home in the country....The ring was a perfect identifier.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Anglophilia is rampant among certain members of certain circles in America. Again, that should surprise no one. And why should the British be bothered by an American's attempt at the sincerest form of flattery?

If Americans have seen fit to take something that was once quintessentially "British" and tinker with it so that it becomes "American" (or "Americanized"), so be it. Whether it's a Norfolk jacket, a polo coat, a navy blazer, or a signet ring, it's any American's privilege to borrow, tinker with, and transform into something of our own making. I should like to think that Land Rover drivers, Barbour jacket wearers, and Brooks regimental tie wearers are exempt from the stinging (and misguided) criticisms of our friends "across the pond" (who apparently dislike copycats) for the same reason that the signet ring wearer is: because Americans are allowed--nay, free--to take something "British" and give it our own spin...our own interpretation.

Best I recall, we're allowed to do this. That is to say, we're no longer a colony.

Cheers,
Harris


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Harris, So what you'e saying is that it's okay for Ralph Lauren to wear a signet ring (which he does) with a crest? I mean that just smacks of so much ersatz as to be laughable.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

I would not wear any ring other than my wedding ring. I might rethink that if I were from a country where there is some reason for me to do so. When an American wears a signet ring or some derivative thereof, it makes them look like they are striving to be something that they are not. I would call it the pre-distressed jeans of the trad/anglophilia style.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tintin_
> 
> Harris, So what you'e saying is that it's okay for Ralph Lauren to wear a signet ring (which he does) with a crest? I mean that just smacks of so much ersatz as to be laughable.


I have no clue what the crest represents. What if it's the seal of a club to which he belongs? Or what if it's the Lipschitz crest?


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## yuppie100 (Dec 26, 2005)

Can someone comment on Chris Wilton's wardrobe in Match Point?

And why, until Today, everything English still commands so much class?


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## 80FJ40 (Sep 26, 2005)

-"The titled aristocracy are the scum of the earth. What really makes me furious is this idea of a whole class of people, mostly European, all looking down on me." 

-"You always say *titled* aristocrats. What about *untitled* aristocrats?"

-"Well, I could hardly despise them, could I? That would be self-hatred, which is unhealthy."

- Nick and Sally, "Metropolitan"

edited for attribution

80FJ40


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So he wears a crest not associated with his surname, but one back in a maternal line? Is this in Germany?

I know every male, not just the oldest, in a Princely line gets to call himself Prince in Germany.

I was Generally refering to the British system where strong primogeniture laws cover many matters including heraldry. Scotland has the strictest followed by England. Ireland, depsite being a republic still maintains a college of arms I understand, but the clan badges/crests you refer to are a indeed a different animal than arms, as are the Scottish ones. While containing elements of the hereditary chiefs arms, they are differenced considerably and "authorized" for sale and wear by "members" of the "clan"

Is your friend certain that his ancestor was indeed posessor of the arms he is utilizing? Most heraldic authorities would want some minor differencing. Did he even consult heraldic authorities or just decide all this for himself?

Dont get me wrong, as an American I take much of the Old World heraldic laws with a grain of salt, but there are many legal cases and precedents in some countries covering this stuff. Show up at cocktail party in London with a coat of arms you got at the mall back home on your blazer and it looks way too much like the one another guest "owns", you could find yourself answering to guys in powdered wigs and paying a fine. It's actually happened.

Cheers


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

Be aware that if you petition the College of Arms for a crest, they may send you George Lazenby in a skirt to check out your hilltop fortress... and that never ends well.

----------------------


"When you wear something like spats, I think you might as well wear your favorite players jersey bc what youre saying is I want to be powerful like the bear and Im wearing its hide to tap into its power." - Film Noir Buff

"First sense of what "normal" good clothes looked like came from my dad, of course, and from Babar books." - Concordia

" I have a related problem in that I often have to chase people. Leather soles are no good for this kind of work." - Patrick06790


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by FlatSix_
> 
> Be aware that if you petition the College of Arms for a crest, they may send you George Lazenby in a skirt to check out your hilltop fortress... and that never ends well.
> 
> ...


Touche' Flatsix


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

I wear a rose gold / white gold wedding band on my left wedding finger and a rose gold oval signet on my right pinky. It has a badge engraved intaglio, but nothing quite so fine as posted above! That's beautiful work. The badge I wear is a family badge - a logo, if you like - and is not an armigerous device, nor held out to be. I wear it because of what it means to me and my family, but I receive many questions and comments about it.

In my time I have made dozens of signet rings, most with either a "family crest" or monogram being engraved on top. Of all those that had "their" crest engraved, only one, I think, was properly entitled to do so.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> I wear a rose gold / white gold wedding band on my left wedding finger and a rose gold oval signet on my right pinky. It has a badge engraved intaglio, but nothing quite so fine as posted above! That's beautiful work.


That is why I am loathe to discourage people from wearing signets. Engraving is one of those crafts, like cordwaining and bespoke tailoring, that will soon die out without support.

Aus_MD


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Signet rings are a great










[}][}][}]


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> Signet rings are a great
> 
> ...


This is quite interesting. Signet rings just don't have that connotation in Australia or New Zealand, in the same way that striped ("regimental") ties do not either.

I guess that there are sartorial "dialects" which can be very subtle.

Aus_MD


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Yep, signet rings aren't common, but they don't raise an eyebrow, either. Often people will ask to see what's on a ring and ask a bit about the background of the symbol, but never in a derogatory manner.

Ties are much the same. I followed a recent thread on school ties with interest. Over here, it's not unusual for men to wear old boys' association ties, club ties and the like. Doing so makes no elitist claim - mainly because we have a very egalitarian society - and it is seen more as an expression of pride, support and brotherhood. I guess we do much as the British, but with few connotations of class or status.


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> Is your friend certain that his ancestor was indeed posessor of the arms he is utilizing? Most heraldic authorities would want some minor differencing. Did he even consult heraldic authorities or just decide all this for himself?


Traced through eldest sons to a specific minor royal in England, aside from the single generation where there was no son. He's American, 11th generation Princetonian. I don't know anything about Germany's heraldic laws; I've only spent about 10 of the 30 months I've been based there in the country. When he was going through the search I considered researching the fabled connections in my family to Italian gentry, but the laws are too convoluted and the records too disappeared.

Tom


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If she indeed had no brothers, then she would have been an heraldic heiress, capable of transmitting the arms of her father to her heirs male (and by courtesy to her daughters, though not their descendants). Whilst this practise is regularly used to quarter arms, this is the first time I've heard of it being used for one's sole heraldic inheritance. Thank-you for sharing.


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## passingtime (Jun 23, 2005)

If you want to get someone to do the research on your family in the UK you could try Achievements in Canterbury (www.achievements.co.uk) who have been in the business for some time, a friend of mine used to work for them. They are related to the The Institute of Heraldic and Genealogical Studies in some way (I think they own them, they share an address) that I have had explained but never quite managed to follow.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> 
> > quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_. . . . A classmate . . . . made the tenuous connection that it passed from father to daughter to son. He decided that that anomaly, along with being the younger son, would not keep him from wearing the ring. . . .
> ...


Perhaps you noted, J+, that this is just an assumption of arms -- worse, unauthorized assumption of _another's_ arms -- and not approval by heraldic authority of perpetuation of arms through an heraldic heiress. (Just think of the great variety of noble and royal arms open to each of us, were this example to be followed!)

What I find more interesting is the observation that the assumer is in the eleventh generation of his family to attend Princeton -- awfully short generations! I've cousins who've sent each generation of their men to Harvard, a much older institution, almost since its founding -- and they're only at the twelfth.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If he is correct about this ancestress being an heraldic heiress, and he descends from her in the male line, then he is in fact entitled to bear those arms, though perhaps with some mark of cadency if relevant.

As for 'noble' arms, one may well be a male-line descendant of the Duke of Bedford, for example, and properly inherit the arms of the Duke, except they will not have the supporters or coronet(s), and will additionally have marks of cadency or some other small alteration (which is not necessary to register, but encouraged).


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That Princeton reference made me curious as well, until I realised that he surely means 11th generation resident of the town of Princeton, and not 11th generation student of Princeton University.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> If . . . this ancestress [were] . . . an heraldic heiress, . . . he is . . . entitled to bear those arms, though perhaps with some mark of cadency . . . .


And if confirmed therein by relevant authority, at least in most Western lands. The original mention implied that the American had simply looked at his family tree, decided that he'd like to use an English ancestress's father's arms -- and adopted them on his own, without petitioning the College of Arms: that would be an unauthorized assumption.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

In reply to the story about the Princeton line that skipped a generation, I'm afraid the line ran out with the sole female child. On her marriage, she was entitled to impale her arms with those of her husband, providing of course that he was also armigerous. Her children, being sons of her husband, naturally bear the father's arms, although they are also entitled to quarter their maternal grandfather's arms with their own.

Should the husband not be armigerous, the particular arms in question die with the wife.

ref: College of Arms, England


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> In reply to the story about the Princeton line that skipped a generation, I'm afraid the line ran out with the sole female child. On her marriage, she was entitled to impale her arms with those of her husband, providing of course that he was also armigerous. Her children, being sons of her husband, naturally bear the father's arms, although they are also entitled to quarter their maternal grandfather's arms with their own.
> 
> ...


This sounds more right to me. As I originally stated, it was a tenuous connection. Him being an American, he didn't care. Again, he also has an older brother, so he doesn't earn the right to wear the arms anyway. Possibly display, but not wear.

I may have been wrong about 11th gen, but I'm fairly sure. The school was founded in 1746. ~20 year generations are short but not prohibitive. OK digging through the website...his grandfather was '40, dad '69, him '02...ggfather 1913, and the website doesn't go any further back. So at 23-29 (that due to WWII) year generations he was likely more around 7th-10th gen. I don't think Catholics were allowed at the school in the early years anyway [}]

Tom


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> . . . . [H]e also has an older brother, so he doesn't earn the right to wear the arms anyway. Possibly display, but not wear.


That wouldn't matter. Though arms may be differenced for younger sons and their descendants, all men in continuous _male_ descent are entitled to use of granted arms (well, under the English system; some Continental systems may differ from this).



> quote:. . . . I don't think Catholics were allowed at the school in the early years [of Princeton] anyway . . . .


I doubt there was such a prohibition, though perhaps only the Calverts and Carrolls among the few Romanists in colonial America (well under one percent of the population) would have cared to matriculate at college -- let alone an evangelical one!


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

The first book I ever read on mens clothing was Malloys "Dress for Success" many years ago. I recall in that book him explicitly stating that pinky rings screamed blue collar and lower middle class. For better or worse, since that day I have never dreamed of wearing one.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by 80FJ40_
> 
> -"The titled aristocracy are the scum of the earth. What really makes me furious is this idea of a whole class of people, mostly European, all looking down on me."


We don't look down on you. We don't even know you exist[8D]

Esse Quam Videre


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

It's just jewelery, guys!

Esse Quam Videre


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

> quoteinky rings screamed blue collar and lower middle class


HRH The Prince of Wales ...?

Round here there is no aristocracy, but it is the 'old' families that tend to wear signets, certainly not the lower middle class.


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

The Spanish system is most fascinating. The Duchess of Alba has over 150 noble titles of her own.

*'The kind of acting I used to enjoy no longer exists because your prime consideration is the budget, running time, the cost - and whether they'll understand it in Milwaukee.'*

*Dirk Bogarde*


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was refering to the lind of pinky rings worn by NY gansters, Las Vegas pimps, as well those that may emulate them.

Pinky signets in UK are definitely U


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

Originally posted by globetrotter:
"different type of ring, but my wife has a 2000 year old greek gem ring, a seal with a scene of the worship of eros, which she wears. this would have been used by a roman for the same purpose as a signat. such stones are more accessible than you might think."

INTERESTING. WHERE DOES ONE LOCATE SUCH RINGS? IS THERE A WEBSITE?
THANKS.


Dan


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

I have a pinky signet ring with the family crest that I wear sometimes. I wear it on the left smallest finger, by my wedding ring. I have never been accused of being trashy, flashy or part of organized crime, but many people have admired and commented on that ring. It is nicely made with deep engraving and is a hand-me-down. We are of English background, mostly anyway. There is some German and French in mix too. I really do not know the history on the ring. It belonged to my grandfather and father though. I researched the crest though and it is correct for our family and dates to the age of knighthood, so I was told anyway.



Dan


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## m kielty (Dec 22, 2005)

I found this Ebay seller when I was looking for intaglios.
Intaglios make very nice pinky rings.

He's one of the best engravers I've come across.



mk


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

Originally posted by NewYorkBuck:
"The first book I ever read on mens clothing was Malloys "Dress for Success" many years ago. I recall in that book him explicitly stating that pinky rings screamed blue collar and lower middle class. For better or worse, since that day I have never dreamed of wearing one."

I READ THAT BOOK TOO WHEN IT WAS HOT, BUT LATER HEARD THAT MALLOY WAS A FRAUD AND, WHILE A WRITER, HAD NO CLAIM TO ANY AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER ON THE MATTER. RATHER, HE FOLLOWED UP ON A GOOD IDEA TO CREATE A BOOK THAT WOULD SELL AND MAKE SOME MONEY. SINCE LEARNING THAT, I HAVE DISCOUNTED HIS MORE FAR REACHING CLAIMS, SUCH AS THE ONE YOU CITE AND, FOR EXAMPLE, HIS STATEMENT THAT ONLY LOWER ACHIEVERS WEAR DARKER SHADES OF RAIN COATS. HIGHER ACHIEVING CLASSES WILL WEAR LIGHT COLORED COATS. YEAH, RIGHT.

ANYWAY, THESE RINGS CAN BE HANDSOME AND ADD SOME PANACHE TO ANY HAND, IMHO, NOTWITHSTANDING MALLORY.

Dan


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DEG_
> 
> Originally posted by globetrotter:
> "different type of ring, but my wife has a 2000 year old greek gem ring, a seal with a scene of the worship of eros, which she wears. this would have been used by a roman for the same purpose as a signat. such stones are more accessible than you might think."
> ...


Dan

Here is , obtained by searching carnelian.

Aus_MD


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

> quote:FOR EXAMPLE, HIS STATEMENT THAT ONLY LOWER ACHIEVERS WEAR DARKER SHADES OF RAIN COATS. HIGHER ACHIEVING CLASSES WILL WEAR LIGHT COLORED COATS. YEAH, RIGHT.


Actually, thats not really what he said. What he said was his research indicated that people PERCEIVED that men who wore such rain coats were more successful. Since a large part of business dress is about perception, I think his contention framed in this manner is applicable. Whether these people are actually of a "higher" or "lower" class is a different question. In any event, although dated, in stark contrast to typical fashion "opinions", his conclusions appear to have been drawn from experimentation. Quite groundbreaking for the day IMO.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by DEG_
> 
> I have a pinky signet ring with the family crest that I wear sometimes. I wear it on the left smallest finger, by my wedding ring. I have never been accused of being trashy, flashy or part of organized crime, but many people have admired and commented on that ring. It is nicely made with deep engraving and is a hand-me-down. We are of English background, mostly anyway. There is some German and French in mix too. I really do not know the history on the ring. It belonged to my grandfather and father though. I researched the crest though and it is correct for our family and dates to the age of knighthood, so I was told anyway.
> 
> Dan


Thats a good pinky ring, if a little effected in the US as opposed to UK.

See the Sopranos or Showgirls for bad pinky rings


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by NewYorkBuck_
> 
> The first book I ever read on mens clothing was Malloys "Dress for Success" many years ago. I recall in that book him explicitly stating that pinky rings screamed blue collar and lower middle class. For better or worse, since that day I have never dreamed of wearing one.


Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. wore a pinky ring with a stone in it. He was upper class - one of the richest, if not the richest, officers in the Army, competed in the first modern Olympic Pentathalon, was Master of the Sword in the U.S. Army, an expert horseman, swordsman, marksman, polo player, historian, and all around pretty studly guy. He doesn't strike me as a blue collar personage or particulary "ethnic" - unless Scottish consitutes ethnic - which, for some people, I suppose it would.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

Patton was renowned for his flamboyance (remember those pistols?), so his wearing a ring on his little finger isn't persuasive of conservative practice. Nonetheless, here in southern New England the wearing of a signet ring isn't very unusual or regarded as an affectation in socially conservative, well-educated circles.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Yes, I suppose that among pinky ring wearers, it is not uncommon to see a pinky ring or two.

As an aside, I didn't think there were too many well-educated socially conservative people left in the Northeast...



> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> Patton was renowned for his flamboyance (remember those pistols?), so his wearing a ring on his little finger isn't persuasive of conservative practice. Nonetheless, here in southern New England the wearing of a signet ring isn't very unusual or regarded as an affectation in socially conservative, well-educated circles.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Cantabrigian_
> 
> As an aside, I didn't think there were too many well-educated socially conservative people left in the Northeast...


Guess we all learn something new everyday, eh?


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Cantabrigian_
> . . . . I didn't think there were too many well-educated socially conservative people left in the Northeast...


! I did pause to puzzle how best to phrase that! I don't mean to say "politically conservative"; I might include such folk as Joseph Kennedy's progeny or John Kerry, but, otherwise, perhaps "old families" (most, well out of the public eye) might come closest to another description.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by NewYorkBuck_
> 
> The first book I ever read on mens clothing was Malloys "Dress for Success" many years ago. I recall in that book him explicitly stating that pinky rings screamed blue collar and lower middle class. For better or worse, since that day I have never dreamed of wearing one.


Certainly, 9ct gold signet rings 'scratched' with the wearer's initials are a pathetic attempt by the lower middle classes to emulate the 18ct gold signet rings worn by the upper middle classes and aristocracy who have their crests 'engraved' on them.

Actually, I find all this class tier one-upmanship very sad, but in Britain today it is still sadly alive and well, thanks to dear old Queen Victoria who obviously left a great legacy!


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> . . . . I find all this class tier one-upmanship very sad, but in Britain today it is still sadly alive and well, thanks to dear old Queen Victoria . . . .


Really? I'd put it down to human nature, as one may find this one-upmanship in virtually any time or place: "I'm smarter than you, richer, handsomer, better", or who-knows-what: the inevitable attempts of the insecure or anxious to differentiate himself and assure himself of salvation (or of worthiness for some other end).


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> Really? I'd put it down to human nature, as one may find this one-upmanship in virtually any time or place: "I'm smarter than you, richer, handsomer, better", or who-knows-what: the inevitable attempts of the insecure or anxious to differentiate himself and assure himself of salvation (or of worthiness for some other end).


 I'm not so sure. In Britain, before the Victorian era, people basically knew their place or had a purpose in life and they mainly stayed that way throughout their lives as such, but of course the vast majority were peasants. However, there were politicians and churchmen etc who served everybody or there were craftsmen, artists, merchants and artisans etc who served the church and the aristocrats - same as in pre-revolution France - but the staunch formation of the lower, middle and upper middle classes by the Victorians was the kiss of death to humanity.


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## Pug (Nov 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jaguar_
> Interesting that there was a big Jag dealer in Madison, though I don't know if it is still there.


It's still in Madison, but has moved east to the site of a defunct Oldsmobile dealer. Cheers.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> Certainly, 9ct gold signet rings 'scratched' with the wearer's initials are a pathetic attempt by the lower middle classes to emulate the 18ct gold signet rings worn by the upper middle classes and aristocracy who have their crests 'engraved' on them.


How tiresome it must be, to be aped by the lesser orders, for those whose greatest accomplishment in life is to have been whelped from the right dam (_pater semper incertus_ and all that, even in the most aristocratic English family).

Trouble is, I think you will find your English upper classes and aristocrats are getting their rings scratched in some dreary shopping mall trophy shop, and their stationery printed at Kinkos, which is why my chap in Sydney ends up engraving wedding invitations for Europes' royalty.

Ever so 'umbly yours,

Aus_MD


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

I'm sure you're right - today's peasants insist on the best of everything (living off the state, of course) and the poor old hard working upper middle's and aristo's are scraping along, down at heel! [^]


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> I'm sure you're right - today's peasants insist on the best of everything (living off the state, of course) and the poor old hard working upper middle's and aristo's are scraping along, down at heel! [^]


"When Adam dalf, and Eve span,
Who was thanne a gentilman?"

Aus_MD


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

Quote from Aus MD,

Dan

"Here is , obtained by searching carnelian.

Aus_MD"

AUS MD, JUST GETTING AROUND TO LOOKING AT AAAC SINCE LAST NIGHT. THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE FOLLOW UP. I WILL LOOK INTO THESE.

[/quote]

Dan


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DEG_
> 
> AUS MD, JUST GETTING AROUND TO LOOKING AT AAAC SINCE LAST NIGHT. THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE FOLLOW UP. I WILL LOOK INTO THESE.
> 
> Dan


You are welcome. Good luck.

Aus_MD


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

Originally posted by DEG

"FOR EXAMPLE, HIS STATEMENT THAT ONLY LOWER ACHIEVERS WEAR DARKER SHADES OF RAIN COATS. HIGHER ACHIEVING CLASSES WILL WEAR LIGHT COLORED COATS. YEAH, RIGHT."
Posted by NewYorkBuck: "Actually, thats not really what he said. What he said was his research indicated that people PERCEIVED that men who wore such rain coats were more successful. Since a large part of business dress is about perception, I think his contention framed in this manner is applicable. Whether these people are actually of a "higher" or "lower" class is a different question. In any event, although dated, in stark contrast to typical fashion "opinions", his conclusions appear to have been drawn from experimentation. Quite groundbreaking for the day IMO."
_____________________________

Thanks. Good point. I hurried through that comment and it has been, perhaps, 25 years ago that I read the book. I was refering in my comment to the class of achievers, not a particular class upbringing or background. Sorry for the confusing choice of words. It was an interesting book and it infulenced my dress then and still, come to think of it. Some of the positioins he took, I found then and still unsubstantiated in my experience though. It was a creative book. Say, I wonder what became of the author in these ensuing years.

Dan


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

Originally posted by Literide
Originally posted by DEG:
"I have a pinky signet ring with the family crest that I wear sometimes. I wear it on the left smallest finger, by my wedding ring. I have never been accused of being trashy, flashy or part of organized crime, but many people have admired and commented on that ring. It is nicely made with deep engraving and is a hand-me-down. We are of English background, mostly anyway. There is some German and French in mix too. I really do not know the history on the ring. It belonged to my grandfather and father though. I researched the crest though and it is correct for our family and dates to the age of knighthood, so I was told anyway."

Dan

Thats a good pinky ring, if a little effected in the US as opposed to UK.

See the Sopranos or Showgirls for bad pinky rings.
_________________________________________________________

Thanks Literide. Yes, I never felt wearing it was in bad taste or tacky. And, no one has ever suggested such. BTW, I recalled today that a local architect friend has just such a ring, too. He told me his father gave it to him at his college graduation. He is about 50 and from the Eastern Panhandle of the state (WV). His family has been there for many generations and a grand 1830's house built by his gggrandfather is still an notable landmark there, although no longer owned by the family. If I see him this weekend, I will get the details on the ring and why his father felt it was an important gift to give to him. It do seem to recall that he told me it was a tradition in his family.


Dan


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> Certainly, 9ct gold signet rings 'scratched' with the wearer's initials are a pathetic attempt . . . to emulate the 18ct gold signet rings . . . [with] crests 'engraved' on them.


They are rather sad, but preferrable to wearing somebody else's crest.

I occasionally see men wear rings with the arms themselves (with or without crest, helm, or motto) instead of the crest alone: a bit of a Continental touch, I think, as signets in colonial America invariably showed only the crest. Interesting.


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

I wear a gold signet ring, on the little finger of my left hand, as is traditional here in old Europe (at least in Belgium & in the UK). 

My ring is engraved with the family arms: the arms each member of the family has the right to bear just like the familyname. A big part of Belgian and British nobility & bourgeoisie wears the signet ring this way. 

In France, members of the French nobility & bourgeoisie wear the signet ring on their left ring finger.

It's definitely not a bad thing (rather the opposite, it's obviously upper class), as long as you are wearing an authentic family crest. Here rings with your initials engraved or other types of pinky rings are not appreciated at all in higher social circles. 

Yet this is the situation in Belgium, France, the UK and most parts of old Europe, but it might be different in other parts of the world.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Nice observation, and welcome to the forum.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

euroman, 

Welcome. Your thoughts are particulary interesting as you come from a different region than most of us and obviously have a different perspective on dress than those of us in the States. Please post often.

gng8

edited to correct typo


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## euroman (Feb 26, 2006)

Many thanks DougNZ and gng8 for these welcome words! This seems to be a very informative forum with a really great atmosphere. 

I will surely try to make my contribution by posting from time to time about the traditional European view on the fashion topics I know about. This might be fun to read for the American, Asian & Australian friends who read this forum, as things sometimes do differ. (I'll try to use my best English )


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## SartoNYC (Feb 22, 2005)

If the arms have been granted to you, or matriculated down to you, and you have the inclination to wear a pinky ring engraved such, what does anyone else's opinion matter?

Highly recommended Thomas Flack at:

https://www.familycrest-engraving.co.uk/


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## P.J. Collins (Feb 13, 2006)

An engraved family crest on a signet ring was often passed down to both male and female progeny. Worn on the little finger, it was clearly an identifier of group membership.

The more daring would deftly twist the top of the ring which bore the crest off to the side, forcing the groundlings to take to their knees to see it.
All a bit much...

'England confides that every man will do his duty'. (Vice-Admiral Horatio Nelson, Trafalgar,1805).


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*Rings with stones ...*

Gents,

the Europeans seem to have a tradition to wear stone family rings (in France, Italy etc.)

Does anybody have them? What do your stones mean?

I also know several US guys who have gold/stone rings - wear them either on the right hand or with their wedding bands on the left wedding finger.

Andrey


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## 16712 (May 10, 2005)

I don't think men should wear signet rings, even if by inheritence they have a reason to do so. You are who you are and should not need to advertise that fact. The majority of continental aristocrats that I know own rings but refuse to wear them for that very reason. I know that at one time wearing a signet ring was viewed somewhat negatively in England for the same reason; not so much anymore it seems. There no point wearing one except to show off who you are, which I don't think people should do.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

MR-

I don't think that's really fair - why should one be ashamed of one's heritage? In any case, the majority of signet rings worn nowadays are people with little or no connection to the title beyond sharing a name. It's hardly showing off, as there is little to show off about.

In my view, of you don't have the permission of the head of the family which bears the arms, you should not be wearing the ring, but I doubt it's a rule many abide by.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Khnelben said:


> Gents,
> 
> the Europeans seem to have a tradition to wear stone family rings (in France, Italy etc.)
> 
> ...


I think you should definitely go for it.


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