# Hierarchy of sub-$500 suits



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I wanted to pick up where we left off with this thread here:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...erarchy-of-sub-1000-suits&highlight=hierarchy

What I was thinking was to attempt to create a rating system for sub-$500 suits, perhaps with weighted values. I could generate the table here or create a throw-away google docs account and have a collaborate spread sheet there. The question is, what would the fields be and how would we do it?

One thought is to break down quality into certain areas, although that's hard given that what's good for one person is not good for another. Like fit. Some of us are Madison fans, while others are Fitzgeralds. Still, it's clear that most here don't like big shoulders and tend to favor relatively natural ones. But what else is there? Fabric? How might we assign a numerical value to fabric quality? Half-canvassed versus fused: how much does that matter?

Another thought is to follow the Economist's lead with its Big Mac index. Might we attempt a Brooks 1818 index? The idea would be to take something that's recognized as a very good sub-$1000 suit (I'm not saying it's the best, but simply good enough to be a bench mark), and then rate other suits in terms of how good it is compared to an 1818. Are we 90% there? 50%? Or, might it even be a better suit?

Anyway, I wanted to open the floor to suggestions. One model I have in mind are the head-phone rankings you can find here: https://www.head-fi.org/t/478568/multi-iem-review-237-iems-compared-akg-k3003i-added-05-07-12

Each phone is ranked according to certain features, and at the very bottom, if you scroll down far enough, you'll find a chart that pulls all the numbers together. I once copied it into Excel to manipulate the date and found it useful. What are the features according to which we'd want to judge suits?

The suits I'd like to throw in for ranking so far are:
Three JAB models (Exec, Sig, Sig Gold)
Brooks Suiting Essentials
Jack Victor
One or two lines from the Wizard
Hardwick
Lands End
Alfani


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## wrwhiteknight (Mar 20, 2012)

I can't help you in this endeavour, but I would like to express some support for your effort!


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## mrbill12345 (Sep 21, 2011)

Some features might be durability, craftsmanship, "cheap" feel, and tailoring quality OTR.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Well, I think the basics should be covered:

SB/DB
Canvass, half canvass, fused
Made in USA, Made in Italy, etc. (we all know 'imported' means China)
Model name


Getting into more detail:
Lapel width
Pleat type available (many of the wizards have pleat options)
Darted/Sack
Jacket Vents
Any details such as pick stitching, surgeons cuffs (we all know to stay away OTR, but that doesn't mean some don't do it)
Experience in terms of fit, as in a 42R fits more like 40S; and/or defining 'generally slim cut' or 'generally full cut'


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## Fred G. Unn (Jul 12, 2011)

I would definitely include SuitSupply. I only have one jacket from them but it really is a great value for the $$$. The sleeves all have working buttons which is problematic if you have to have them altered though. The 40R SC I have fit me perfectly in the sleeve length without any alterations so I guess I'm in luck. Definitely worth a trip to the store if you are in the NYC area.
https://www.suitsupply.com/shop/1/Suits?filter_27=736


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I remember reading the last thread along these lines.

One thing that stood out was that "Benjamin Sartorial" seemed like a great value. They are supposedly full-canvassed, although as other discussions have illuminated, sometimes that term is used with suits that are also fused.

Don't know about these, but have seen them for sale on ehaberdasher, in limited colors however.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

S. Cohen
Lauren Ralph Lauren
J. Press
Bookster
Andover Shop
O'Connell's
Haspel
etc.



tocqueville said:


> I wanted to pick up where we left off with this thread here:
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...erarchy-of-sub-1000-suits&highlight=hierarchy
> 
> ...


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Made in USA, Made in Italy, etc. (we all know 'imported' means China)


Not necessarily. Many of the mass-market, imported suits are now made in India or even Vietnam, as labor is becoming more expensive in China.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

*Please Populate!*

OK, let's see if this works. It's kind of clunky, but maybe. IF this doesn't work, we can migrate it over to google docs and make the password available to forum members. You can manipulate the table first by hitting "reply" and then by using the "go advanced" button. That will shoe tool bars for things like adding and deleting columns and rows.

If this works, this can become a vital tool for budget suit shoppers. I believe you can all add rows with more brands/models. Please do.


brandmodelfabric typefabric ratingfitshoulderschest piececuffsdarts/sackstreet pricecompared to Brooks 1818 as a percentageCommentssuper number, etcqualitative:
I'd rate it on a 4-point scale. 1 = unacceptable, 2 = acceptable, 3 = excellent (i.e. on par with a Brooks 1818), 4 = superlative (i.e. better than an 1818)​full,trim,etclinebacker,
moderate,
naturalfull canvas,
half,fusedworking?Not MSRP,but
what
one can expect
to find
at a regular sale event100% = as good as an 1818. Can be higher than 100%BrooksSuiting Essentials5% Dowdependshalffake450Jack Victor (STP)half350CanadianHardwickfused263.70Made in USATm LewinC. TyrwhittworkingO'ConnellsHouse Brand595Lands EndYear RounderS90fused180JaBExecutiveJaBSignatureJaBSig GoldSuit SupplyS110working469Benjamin SartorialThe Wizard of AahsDanieleS150379.95AlfaniNavy Solid Stretchfused298IndochinoEssential Navy SuitS100379


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Curiously, why is 1818 the benchmark?? I'm wearing a GF today, and it is a TERRIBLE suit and only worn because of the crappy weather we're having.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Curiously, why is 1818 the benchmark?? I'm wearing a GF today, and it is a TERRIBLE suit and only worn because of the crappy weather we're having.


I think it's the most familiar to most people. It's also just at the outer limit of the price range. And it's widely regarded (accurately or not) as a very good suit for $500-$700. I'm inspired by the Economist's Big Mac index for comparing different economies. No one pretends a Big Mac is any good, but it's available everywhere, and everyone knows what it is.

That's why I think it's important to be able to rate things as better than an 1818. If someone comes and tells me that a certain $400-$600 suit is better than an 1818, I'm all ears.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> I think it's the most familiar to most people. It's also just at the outer limit of the price range. And it's widely regarded (accurately or not) as a very good suit for $500-$700. I'm inspired by the Economist's Big Mac index for comparing different economies. No one pretends a Big Mac is any good, but it's available everywhere, and everyone knows what it is.
> 
> That's why I think it's important to be able to rate things as better than an 1818. If someone comes and tells me that a certain $400-$600 suit is better than an 1818, I'm all ears.


Fair enough. And that said, what's the difference between my Golden Fleece and an 1818??


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Fair enough. And that said, what's the difference between my Golden Fleece and an 1818??


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GF is priced outside the $500 limit. That's all.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GF is priced outside the $500 limit. That's all.


I just noticed that the O'Connell's house brand worsted suit is $595, and thus outside the limit as well. Does anyone know if it ever drops down to $500 on sale?


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Are Macy's Alfani suits made to uniform standards of quality, and do they come from a single vendor? I have a suspicion this may not be the case. I had one for some years. It was okay for a cheap suit, I suppose, but I have now gotten rid of all my RTW suits and most seriously doubt I shall ever own another.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

JLibourel said:


> Are Macy's Alfani suits made to uniform standards of quality, and do they come from a single vendor? I have a suspicion this may not be the case. I had one for some years. It was okay for a cheap suit, I suppose, but I have now gotten rid of all my RTW suits and most seriously doubt I shall ever own another.


Feel free to add your knowledge of Alfani suits to the table. I added an Alfani row. Are there different models?

It is my hope that this can be a valuable reference for someone who might be tempted to pick up an Alfani on sale because of the price. Perhaps he'll be able to look here and see that for the same money, he'd be much better of buying a Hardwick, for example. Or vice versa. Or maybe it will become clear that what one really should do is save up the roughly $350 required for a Jack Victor.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

How about including some of the on-line and MTM tailors? You won't be paying for alterations which can be a good bit if you're hard to fit.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

cdavant said:


> How about including some of the on-line and MTM tailors? You won't be paying for alterations which can be a good bit if you're hard to fit.


A good idea. Which?


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## lalaland (Apr 10, 2012)

MTM sub-$500:

Thick as Thieves: huge following on Styleforum, fully canvassed 100% wool MTM for less than $500. One-man-shop run by a true clothing enthusiast - and if you're local to So-Cal you can get measured by the proprietor himself. Style is too trendy for some, but bang-for-buck ratio is good. Also you don't have to get the super short house cut - he does a longer cut he calls The Traditional.

Indochino: maybe not best bang-for-buck but should be on the list.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

How much do those JAB suits usually cost? Anyone know? There's always a sale, so what's a "good" price?


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Best JAB price is usually 70% off, or buy 1 get two free where you can mix and match--1 suit + 2 other items. Always on sale.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I added prices for the Jab suits, assuming a 70% off sale. Or are those to infrequent?

Can someone fill in which Jabs are half-canvassed, etc?

If anyone wants to add to this, please just hit reply with quote, and then the "go advanced" option, which opens up the table to editing. You can delete the code that makes it "quote."


brandmodelfabric typefabric ratingfitshoulderschest piececuffsdarts/sackstreet pricecompared to Brooks 1818 as a percentageOverall
RankingCommentssuper number, etcqualitative:
I'd rate it on a 4-point scale. 1 = unacceptable, 2 = acceptable, 3 = excellent (i.e. on par with a Brooks 1818), 4 = superlative (i.e. better than an 1818)​full,trim,etclinebacker,
moderate,
naturalfull canvas,
half,fusedworking?Not MSRP,but
what
one can expect
to find
at a regular sale event100% = as good as an 1818. Can be higher than 100%BrooksSuiting Essentials5% Dowdependshalffake450Jack Victor (STP)half350CanadianHardwickfused263.70Made in USATm LewinC. TyrwhittworkingLands EndYear RounderS90fused180JaBExecutive178.8JaBSignature201JaBSig Goldhalf285Suit SupplyS110working469Benjamin SartorialThe Wizard of AahsDanieleS150379.95AlfaniNavy Solid Stretchfused298IndochinoEssential Navy SuitS100379


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## Gopherguy (Feb 27, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> I added prices for the Jab suits, assuming a 70% off sale. Or are those to infrequent?
> 
> Can someone fill in which Jabs are half-canvassed, etc?
> 
> ...


Signature Gold is half-canvassed. Everything less is fused. They have a diamond or platinum line that is fully canvassed.

They do a 70% off sale infrequently. They also do once or twice a year buy one at 50% off get one free. The equals 75% off for two suits. That the best deal they offer.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GF is priced outside the $500 limit. That's all.


Really???? I have a GF that was acquired from a board member, NWT. It is one of the worst suits I own. I paid $250-ish for it, and frankly, wouldn't have paid $100 for it. I've gotten nicer suits at Kohls for $100, and the Wizard's offerings are VASTLY superior in every respect. Absolutely turned me off entirely to BB suitings.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Really???? I have a GF that was acquired from a board member, NWT. It is one of the worst suits I own. I paid $250-ish for it, and frankly, wouldn't have paid $100 for it. I've gotten nicer suits at Kohls for $100, and the Wizard's offerings are VASTLY superior in every respect. Absolutely turned me off entirely to BB suitings.


I might be wrong, but I always thought the GF was the fully canvassed high end line at brooks. Sounds like Brooks really blew it.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

tocqueville said:


> I might be wrong, but I always thought the GF was the fully canvassed high end line at brooks. Sounds like Brooks really blew it.


Toqueville, blew it isn't the word. Remember the thread about them being 'recalled'. If I hadn't spent the $100+ on alterations, I had half a mind to go into the store and ask WTF? Seriously, absolutely terrible, and the poor product (regardless of source, which was probably outlet) turned off a guy with a big wardrobe. The only thing I buy at BB is occasional socks.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

*Latest table*

Here's the latest. If you want to edit, hit reply with quote, and then "go advanced." Delete the "quote" code stuff so that this is not posted as a quote of an earlier post but a fresh post. Please, do: this can only work if it's a collective effort. I in fact own none of the suits on this list, so I can't supply any of the subjective assessments personally.


brandmodelfabric typefabric ratingfitshoulderschest piececuffsdarts/sackstreet pricecompared to Brooks 1818 as a percentageOverall
RankingCommentssuper number, etcqualitative:
I'd rate it on a 4-point scale. 1 = unacceptable, 2 = acceptable, 3 = excellent (i.e. on par with a Brooks 1818), 4 = superlative (i.e. better than an 1818)​full,trim,etclinebacker,
moderate,
naturalfull canvas,
half,fusedworking?Not MSRP,but
what
one can expect
to find
at a regular sale event100% = as good as an 1818. Can be higher than 100%BrooksSuiting Essentials5% Dowdependshalffake450ThailandJack Victor (STP)half350CanadianHickey FreemanHickeyHickey FreemanLTDHardwickfused263.70Made in USATm LewinRed LabelS80fused368TM LewinBannisterS110half?479C. TyrwhittBusiness suitfullworking499Lands EndYear RounderS90fused180JaBExecutivefused178.8ChinaJaBSignaturefused201ChinaJaBSig Goldhalf285ChinaSuit SupplyS110working469eHaberdasherBenjamin SartorialS120full canvas330The Wizard of AahsDanieleS150full canvas379.95China. The Daniele reportedly has some fusing with the fabric. I'm not sure what that means.AlfaniNavy Solid Stretchfused298IndochinoEssential Navy SuitS100379


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

A few years ago I purchased 2 JAB Signature suits during one of their frequent sales. Paid less than $300 each with alterations.

Shoulders between moderate and linebacker. Cut is trimmer than Brooksease...maybe a 1/2 size ? Regular JAB suit trousers have a lower rise than Brooksease.

Suits have held up well, but are not as comfortable as a Brooksease. My problem is with the chest piece and shoulders. While the jacket looks ok in the am, over the course of the day, it just doesn't move with me. It feels and looks stiff.

I have no experience with the BB 1818 model. Is the 1818 equivalent to Brooksease ?

Overall I would say the JAB Signature is about 60% of a Brooksease. Just my opinion, others may differ.

For the on sale price, I would say that the JAB Signature is a good suit, provided that the fit works for you. At the on sale price they are a particularly good value for someone starting out and will last until one can afford a better suit.

I just purchased a Hardwick poplin. Shoulders are moderate. Trouser rise is slightly less than I am used to. Fit is slightly trimmer than Brooksease. Good value overall. I will probably try a Hardwick "Max" 3r2 sack next.

Best,

Ross


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Are you sure the Baroni ( the wizard's Daniele is his name for a Baroni) is full canvas? This post from SF is by a man with a good reputation in the business.

TonyThe Tailor

Posts: 409
Joined: 9/2006
Location: Charleston West by God Virginia
Quote:

I have an account with Baroni (and Corneliani and know Herb Tucker and Maurizio). Baroni is not made by Corneliani. It is made in a Chinese factory that Corneliani has some ownership in, a BIG difference.
The only Baroni garments I will sell are the solid color ones because the stripes and plaids have terrible pattern matching, even for a $300.00 suit or a $175.00 Jacket. The "Super 150s" fabrics are not Italian, they are Chinese and I am still skeptical regarding that country's "truth in labeling" laws.
The Baroni coats are half canvas.

I think the main focus here is why do sellers have to lie and call a $300.00 suit a $1,200.00 suit to sell it?

As for for Neapolitan cut, high armholes, surgeon cuffs and button fly pants, I can do it myself (depending on the fabric) for $600.00 to $6,000.00.

Link to the thread: https://www.styleforum.net/t/193862/baroni-wizard-of-ahhs-suit-review/60


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

brandmodelfabric typefabric ratingfitshoulderschest piececuffsdarts/sackstreet pricecompared to Brooks 1818 as a percentageOverall
RankingCommentssuper number, etcqualitative:
I'd rate it on a 4-point scale. 1 = unacceptable, 2 = acceptable, 3 = excellent (i.e. on par with a Brooks 1818), 4 = superlative (i.e. better than an 1818)​full,trim,etclinebacker,
moderate,
naturalfull canvas,
half,fusedworking?Not MSRP,but
what
one can expect
to find
at a regular sale event100% = as good as an 1818. Can be higher than 100%BrooksSuiting Essentials5% Dowdependshalffake450ThailandJack Victor (STP)half350CanadianHickey FreemanHickeyHickey FreemanLTDHardwickfused263.70Made in USATm LewinRed LabelS80fused368TM LewinBannisterS110half?479C. TyrwhittBusiness suitfullworking499Lands EndYear RounderS90fused180JaBExecutivefused178.8ChinaJaBSignaturefused201ChinaJaBSig Goldhalf285ChinaSuit SupplyS110working469eHaberdasherBenjamin SartorialS120full canvas330The Wizard of AahsDanieleS150Front of jacket is fused fabric, with canvas underneath it.
379.95China. Jeff is a nice guy and very service oriented. 
AlfaniNavy Solid Stretchfused298IndochinoEssential Navy SuitS100379


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## dhuge677 (May 16, 2012)

I think most of these suits pretty much suck. Saving money for a $1,000 suit is probably a good idea, and this is coming from someone who doesn't own one that expensive. From now on though, I will.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

I apologize for not being able to fill in the chart but I offer some ratings for Hardwick. I bought via www.menssuitseparates.com :
Model: 100% wool seasonal suits
fabric: 100% wool broadcloth
quality: 2+ acceptable; the finish is 'flat' or dead without sheen, which is good; I actually prefer it; the weave is not as fine as a BB Madison 1818 or the JAB traveler line, which I am wearing today.
Fit: average. I am slim; 41" chest (usually buy 42L) and 33" waist; Ordering these jackets and trousers separately works well and the jackets need no alteration although a tailor would insist on some waist suppression.
shoulders: moderate padding but certainly not European looking.
Chest; At this price point, these are certainly fused but do not 'pucker' at all.

I bought the navy and charcoal solids in the first-listed 100% wool line, which are supposed to be slightly lesser quality than the second grouping, for 'work suits', and they have worn like tanks. The fabric has no noticable shine or visible wearing and the trouser creases have held up in all weather much better than I expected. These look very nice with only one dry cleaning each over the past year.

Minor annoyances are the lack of a change pocket inside the trouser pocket and the now ubiquitous cell phone pocket in the jacket.

I rate Hardwick in the middle of the range of under $500 suits; not as nice looking as JAB but ahead of Alfani and ahead of LE.

I will certainly buy more later this year for work. I have a dozen or so BB suits and a few JAB but I find I reach for the Hardwicks at least twice a week. There is real value in a decent 'cheap' work suit.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

filfoster said:


> I apologize for not being able to fill in the chart but I offer some ratings for Hardwick. I bought via www.menssuitseparates.com :
> Model: 100% wool seasonal suits
> fabric: 100% wool broadcloth
> quality: 2+ acceptable; the finish is 'flat' or dead without sheen; the weave is not as fine as a BB Madison 1818.
> ...


Thank you!

I'll input the info into the data when I get a sec.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Isn't $285 a bit optimistic for JAB Sig Gold? I thought the best you could generally do was at a 70% off sale, where the price, the last time I looked, was $328. And are they, in fact, made in China. I'm pretty sure the one I got my boy a couple of years ago was made in Mexico.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

JLibourel said:


> Isn't $285 a bit optimistic for JAB Sig Gold? I thought the best you could generally do was at a 70% off sale, where the price, the last time I looked, was $328. And are they, in fact, made in China. I'm pretty sure the one I got my boy a couple of years ago was made in Mexico.


You're right. At the moment the Sig Gold is listed for $439, which is 66% off, I think. 70% off of the MSRP would be $388.50.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

*Updated*


brandmodelfabric typefabric ratingfitshoulderschest piececuffsdarts/sackstreet pricecompared to Brooks 1818 as a percentageOverall
RankingCommentssuper number, etcqualitative:
I'd rate it on a 4-point scale. 1 = unacceptable, 2 = acceptable, 3 = excellent (i.e. on par with a Brooks 1818), 4 = superlative (i.e. better than an 1818)​full,trim,etclinebacker,
moderate,
naturalfull canvas,
half,fusedworking?Not MSRP,but
what
one can expect
to find
at a regular sale event100% = as good as an 1818. Can be higher than 100%BrooksSuiting Essentials5% Dowdependshalffake450ThailandJack Victor (STP)half350CanadianHickey FreemanHickeyHickey FreemanLTDHardwick2+moderatefused263.70fabric not as fine.Made in USA. Middle of the pack but solid value. Good working suits.Tm LewinRed LabelS80fused368TM LewinBannisterS110half?479C. TyrwhittBusiness suitfullworking499Lands EndYear RounderS90fused180JaBExecutivefused178.8ChinaJaBSignaturefused201ChinaJaBSig Goldhalf388.5ChinaSuit SupplyS110working469eHaberdasherBenjamin SartorialS120lightfull canvas330ChinaThe Wizard of AahsDanieleS150Front of jacket is fused fabric, with canvas underneath it.379.95China. Jeff is a nice guy and very service oriented.AlfaniNavy Solid Stretchfused298IndochinoEssential Navy SuitS100379


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## Gopherguy (Feb 27, 2012)

The best you can get is 75% off. Last Christmas they offered buy one at 50% off get one free. That's 75% each suit. At $1,295 with 75% off that would equal $323.75. That's not bad for a half-canvassed suit.


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## sjtm (Dec 17, 2011)

Last Christmas I purchased four JAB Signature Gold suits, all 2 button and basic fabrics (solid navy, charcoal gray pinstripe, etc.) for $904 total online, or $226 per suit. They occaisionally have both the deep discount plus an additional discount on the total purchase, which was the case last Christmas. I am very happy with the suits. I also bought two 1818 Madison suits on sale for $499. I took all the suits to a well respected local tailor (real tailor - not the local drycleaner) and he preferred the JAB suit fit on me to the BB. I had expected the reverse due to the bias on this board towards BB over JAB. Both brands have worn well and I have received several complements on both. As Mr. arkirshner has stated many times, proper fit matters most.


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## MonkeySuit (May 23, 2012)

filfoster said:


> I apologize for not being able to fill in the chart but I offer some ratings for Hardwick. I bought via www.menssuitseparates.com :
> Model: 100% wool seasonal suits
> fabric: 100% wool broadcloth
> 
> ...


Could you clarify which Hardwick line you purchased? When I look at the website, the first listed wool suit line is Sartorial Separates while the second is the less expensive 9800 Range. The way I read your post (and correct me if I'm wrong), it says that the more expensive line is of lesser quality.


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## Timeless Fashion (Apr 12, 2009)

I would say HSM suits are reasonably priced (definitely under $500, sometimes as low as $250) Made in USA suits, although they are usually fused. Their cut tends to be boxy for my taste though. I have seen Hickey Freeman in the $500 range at outlet stores as well, though they usually have limited sizes and color/pattern.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Timeless Fashion said:


> I would say HSM suits are reasonably priced (definitely under $500, sometimes as low as $250) Made in USA suits, although they are usually fused. Their cut tends to be boxy for my taste though. I have seen Hickey Freeman in the $500 range at outlet stores as well, though they usually have limited sizes and color/pattern.


My problem with HSM is the number of lines that I can't readily identify. That's what I find at The Rack. Maybe they're good, maybe not, but it's hard for a most of us to be able to tell the difference on our own. One thing I like about Brooks is that since they really only have one "diffusion" line, the 346, I know what I'm buying if the label says 346. Moreover, the 346 line is well enough established that one can easily learn what the reputation is of a particular 346 item. I happen to like 346 shirts, for example, at least when they're on sale.

I'm not done with this project by any means, although I haven't had time to add much content lately. My own personal assessment is that for basic solids (navy, charcoal, etc.), the king of this hierarchy is the Brooks Suiting Essentials. Why? Because one can order them in basic solids and get them in different fits (the default is regent, but you can order Fitz, Madison, etc.). Most importantly, you can try on the corresponding 1818 to get the right fit. And you can get the full in-store experience with fitting, alterations, and a store that stands by the product. My current strategy is this: pick up Brooks SE basics and then expand the wardrobe by aiming for the various internet bargains, which are generally hard to find in the basic solids. That's the time to experiment with the Whiz and STP's offerings.


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## Gc2892 (Nov 29, 2011)

For college students (like myself) and recent grads, I think going online to Lands End and picking up the Year Rounder separates is a great option. If you wait for a sale, you can grab a suit jacket and 2 pants to rotate in all for about $200. If you know your pant length, they'll even hem your pants for you which saves tailoring costs. I've recently bought 2 of their suits myself and am very satisfied so far.


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## mulsas (Jan 27, 2011)

For the BB SE, do you order the different fits in the store? I didn't see that on the website. I went to their store for the first time recently, the 1818 Fitzgerald was very nice, and fit me well (light years better that a JAB Exec I have). They didn't really have much in terms of SE to try on to compare with the 1818. The only rub is that unless I can get one at the rock bottom sales price, the more normal sales price on the 1818 is still a bit pricey for me and my suiting needs. This is why I've been watching this thread with interest, to see what else is available. And tocq, I like the comments about the SE, I would like to stick with something that I can add over time, and know exactly how it going to fit.


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## Buffalo (Nov 19, 2003)

The chart list the BBs essential suit as half canvas which I seriously doubt. Does anyone have any support for the half canvas construction?


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

mulsas said:


> For the BB SE, do you order the different fits in the store? I didn't see that on the website. I went to their store for the first time recently, the 1818 Fitzgerald was very nice, and fit me well (light years better that a JAB Exec I have). They didn't really have much in terms of SE to try on to compare with the 1818. The only rub is that unless I can get one at the rock bottom sales price, the more normal sales price on the 1818 is still a bit pricey for me and my suiting needs. This is why I've been watching this thread with interest, to see what else is available. And tocq, I like the comments about the SE, I would like to stick with something that I can add over time, and know exactly how it going to fit.


The default for SE is regent, but at the store you can order any of the four fits. They won't have in stock but will have you try on the corresponding 1818s.

I confirmed this recently because I hatched a scheme to get my brother a suit. I can't trust him to buy one that fits, and I can't be there myself. So I called a SA in his local brooks and confirmed that theSA is prepared to walk my brother through the fits and sizes. Short of paying for MTO, I can't think of a more idiot proof way to put someone in a well fitting suit.


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## lalaland (Apr 10, 2012)

Thick as Thieves really needs to be in there - www.thickasthievesla.com

He's a one man operation (full time job is being a graphic designer - suit are his hobby) who sold over 600 suits last year, himself, via word of mouth with no advertising.

Fully canvassed MTM (online or in person if you live in california) with quality wools for $480. His house cut is "shrunken" but he has a cut he calls "traditional" which is longer - and he will customize to taste.

Mine arrives in a week - I'll report on its results here.


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## Underwhelmed (Jun 12, 2012)

It's been nearly a month, lalaland, any results to report? 

Also... When do the Benjamin suits drop to $330?!


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Toqueville, blew it isn't the word. Remember the thread about them being 'recalled'. If I hadn't spent the $100+ on alterations, I had half a mind to go into the store and ask WTF? Seriously, absolutely terrible, and the poor product (regardless of source, which was probably outlet) turned off a guy with a big wardrobe. The only thing I buy at BB is occasional socks.


Interesting. One of the things that really puzzles me about AAAC is the veneration for Brooks Brothers. Allen Edmonds is the other vendor that is always given the plaudits here, but in that case I feel its more justified.

BB on the other hand make a lot of sub-standard merchandise IMHO. It really irritates me that most of their shirts are made in Malaysia and I think they are very overpriced for what they are. The suits are likewise nothing to write home about and again the price is quite full.

Brooks Brothers has a very fine heritage and maybe they are just doing what needs to be done to run a successful large-scale business, but I am seriously underwhelmed with most of their offerings and am surprised about the popularity here.

Sorry for the digression.


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## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

Haffman said:


> Interesting. One of the things that really puzzles me about AAAC is the veneration for Brooks Brothers. Allen Edmonds is the other vendor that is always given the plaudits here, but in that case I feel its more justified.
> 
> BB on the other hand make a lot of sub-standard merchandise IMHO. It really irritates me that most of their shirts are made in Malaysia and I think they are very overpriced for what they are. The suits are likewise nothing to write home about and again the price is quite full.
> 
> ...


well, this is Trad-ville central, so the BB name goes a long way.

I'll add my two cents about the Jack Victor. Can be had between 300-400 depending on sale, etc, with $400 made from Loro Piana wool. It's half-canvassed, and i was told by the associate at Lord & Taylor in NYC that it's the best quality suit they carry (they also have green label Ralph Lauren and Hugo Boss). the downside is the cut, which tend to be on the boxy side. A regular-cut 38s looks boxier on me than my 40r press sack jacket does. This is from the cut starting with the letter V (for Verona perhaps?)

OTOH, they also have a slimmer style called the Napoli, but i haven't seen it carried in many places. The ones i purchased ($335) were from Bluefly, and i ordered a 36 & a 38 to see how they fit. I'm hoping it's still somewhat boxy as the 36 is solid grey and 38 is solid navy, and i prefer the grey. I'll write an update when i get the suits.

Sierra also throws out some great discounts, and some of the solid-colored Hickey suits were recently on sale for $450.


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## Wales (Jun 9, 2012)

I agree with Haffman re: BB. I do like some of their stuff and like the traditional styles, but neither the suits nor ties nor shirts strike me as terribly well made. Not badly made, but easily beatable for the price point. I just don't have much interest in BB anymore.


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## Big T (Jun 25, 2010)

Let me ask another question somewhat related to this thread: what would be the suggestions to a person who could afford a $1,000 suit, yet, because he has made his own way and money, finds it difficult to spend more than $300 to $500 on a suit (not including shirts, ties, etc.)? About twenty miles from where I live is a gentleman who is known locally as a good tailor (recommendations come from women-folk I know, and the tailor is aged mid-70, so I doubt it is infatuations), who could alter and fit what I would, if mail order.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

brandmodelfabric typefabric ratingfitshoulderschest piececuffsdarts/sackstreet pricecompared to Brooks 1818 as a percentageOverall
RankingCommentssuper number, etcqualitative:
I'd rate it on a 4-point scale. 1 = unacceptable, 2 = acceptable, 3 = excellent (i.e. on par with a Brooks 1818), 4 = superlative (i.e. better than an 1818)​full,trim,etclinebacker,
moderate,
naturalfull canvas,
half,fusedworking?Not MSRP,but
what
one can expect
to find
at a regular sale event100% = as good as an 1818. Can be higher than 100%BrooksSuiting Essentials5% Dowdependshalffake450ThailandJack Victor (STP)half350CanadianHickey FreemanHickeyHickey Freeman (STP)Lindsay/Milburn100% worsted3Trim. Perhaps similar to a Regent. Definitely not a Madison.moderatehalffake$45080%. Fabric not as fine.Made in USA. Decent value. Not sure how it compares with Jack Victor.Hardwick2+moderatefused263.70fabric not as fine.Made in USA. Middle of the pack but solid value. Good working suits.Tm LewinRed LabelS80fused368TM LewinBannisterS110half?479C. TyrwhittBusiness suitfullworking499Lands EndYear RounderS90fused180JaBExecutivefused178.8ChinaJaBSignaturefused201ChinaJaBSig Goldhalf388.5ChinaSuit SupplyS110working469eHaberdasherBenjamin SartorialS120lightfull canvas330ChinaThe Wizard of AahsDanieleS150Front of jacket is fused fabric, with canvas underneath it.379.95China. Jeff is a nice guy and very service oriented.AlfaniNavy Solid Stretchfused298IndochinoEssential Navy SuitS100379

Updated to reflect my experience with the STP Hickey Freeman.


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## k2000k (Oct 16, 2012)

Has anyone ever thought of adding a fair price column; which would be the price that individuals feel the garment should be listed at based on its quality of construction and materials used?

For example I tried on a tommy hilfiger suit jacket, which I know is a very low quality line relative to many others, and it fit tremendously well. However I did not purchase the item because the jackets was just uder $ 200 and with the pants the suit would have been almost $ 300. Not something I would buy at that price point, though the entire package for under $ 200 I'd consider as a night life suit.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Big T said:


> Let me ask another question somewhat related to this thread: what would be the suggestions to a person who could afford a $1,000 suit, yet, *because he has made his own way and money, finds it difficult to spend more than $300 to $500 on a suit* (not including shirts, ties, etc.)? About twenty miles from where I live is a gentleman who is known locally as a good tailor (recommendations come from women-folk I know, and the tailor is aged mid-70, so I doubt it is infatuations), who could alter and fit what I would, if mail order.


This old post is kind of funny. It woukd insuate that when one has made his own way and money it becomes difficult to spend more than $300-$500.00 on a suit. If anything, my experience generally shows the reverse.

This will be a great thread if that table expands a bit...!


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

blairrob said:


> This will be a great thread if that table expands a bit...!


Please feel free to expand it; or tell me what you want to add, and I'll add it.

You can edit the spreadsheet by quoting me and pressing the "Go advanced" button. Delete the code with the quote code.


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## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

tocqueville said:


> Please feel free to expand it; or tell me what you want to add, and I'll add it.
> 
> You can edit the spreadsheet by quoting me and pressing the "Go advanced" button. Delete the code with the quote code.


for Jack Victor:

Cut: depends. Verona is standard; Napoli is slim.
Fabric: I have seen Loro Piana Super 120 fabric.
Price: $250-$450. Can be found at Lord & Taylor ($300 right now), Bluefly, STP, and Gilt. The Napoli model is available from the internet retailers but not from Lord & Taylor.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

echappist said:


> for Jack Victor:
> 
> Cut: depends. Verona is standard; Napoli is slim.
> Fabric: I have seen Loro Piana Super 120 fabric.
> Price: $250-$450. Can be found at Lord & Taylor ($300 right now), Bluefly, STP, and Gilt. The Napoli model is available from the internet retailers but not from Lord & Taylor.


Any thoughts on how it compares to other suits on the spread sheet? Or others not on the spread sheet?


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## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

i wish i could tell you, but i don't have enough experience with the fancier stuff (e.g. Brooks) to make the comparison.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

I was asked to compare BB Suiting Essentials (SE) suits with Hardwick's wool suits.
Fit: BB/SE are form fitting and more like the 'Fitzgerald' fit. They have low rise trousers that are frankly less comfortable. The Hardwicks are more traditionally cut and comfortable. The jackets are more 'sack' like even though they have darts.
Fabric: The BB/SE suits use a a smooth finish wool that compares with their more expensive suits. The Hardwick suits use fabrics that have slightly more texture. The solids have a nice 'dead' finish and the pinstripes are smoother, approaching a vintage fabric hand and appearance, if you like that. (I do.)
Finish: The BB/SE suits are what you would expect from BB, even at the lower price point (I get these on the 25%-30% off sales), are finished with the same details you would expect on better suits, cell phone and change pockets, smooth seams at sleeve top and cuff, lapels that lay properly flat. The Hardwick suits have fabric 'bunching' at the sleeve cuffs; the solid patterns lack cell phone pockets unless these have been added, as they appear in the pinstripe ones recently acquired.
I have not dissected my suits but a poster in the Trad forum says the Hardwick suits are actually half canvassed!
The BB/SE suits are made in Thailand. The Hardwicks are made in Cleveland, TN.
I have four each of the BB/SE suits and the Hardwicks, in similar colors/patterns. I prefer the Hardwicks for daily wear. That's just me but it probably has to do with the trouser rise as much as anything else. Still, the BB/SE suits look youthful and have a nice narrow profile for those of us fortunate enough or cursed with health regimens that keep us slim.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks! I gather your SEs are the "Regent" fit? I recently purchased my brother an SE in Madison fit; I was pleased with the results.


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## njruss (Dec 8, 2012)

Gopherguy said:


> Signature Gold is half-canvassed. Everything less is fused. They have a diamond or platinum line that is fully canvassed.
> 
> They do a 70% off sale infrequently. They also do once or twice a year buy one at 50% off get one free. The equals 75% off for two suits. That the best deal they offer.


Lately, JAB has been running "buy 1 get 3 free" promos


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## cincydavid (May 21, 2012)

JAB is getting to be like the fireworks stands that spring up prior to the 4th of July every year...buy one, get 5 free!!! "Ticky, tacky", as my grandmother would say.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

cincydavid said:


> JAB is getting to be like the fireworks stands that spring up prior to the 4th of July every year...buy one, get 5 free!!! "Ticky, tacky", as my grandmother would say.


Part of my motivation for starting this thread is to identify better alternatives for those of us on a tight budget who want to feel like we're getting something of quality for our money nonetheless. I think we've already identified a few winners:

1. Brooks Brothers Suiting Essentials
2. Hardwick via https://menssuitseparates.com/?gclid=CLH5icq2jLQCFYqZ4Aoda3gAFw
3. The Hickeys available at STP
4. The Jack Victors available at STP.


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## Placebo Effect (Mar 15, 2013)

Old thread... but still relevant. There's still a sizable population of men out there looking for sub-$500 suits, wanting to look nice but not willing (or able) to drop a ton of money.

I've tried on Hickey Freeman's LTD (STP) and Milburn lines (half-canvas at places like NM Last Call) and owned a few Jack Victors myself. My opinion is that the Jack Victor suits are a really good buy for $300 or so, and while the Hickey Freeman half-canvas models felt like the fabric was a bit nicer, they aren't worth the extra cost.

I would also add that you can occasionally get very lucky on ebay or at NM Last Call/Nordstrom Rack and find a fully canvassed, NWT Hickey Freeman mainline model for at or even under $500 during a good sale. You do need to know what to look for, though, since there's a lot of the Hickey Freeman diffusion-line, half-canvas stuff at the same price all around them.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Joseph Abboud, who makes half-canvas suits in the USA, was available for about $430 OTR during Nordstrom's recent anniversary sale. List was, I believe, $699. At the sale price I found them to be outstanding value. I've found most things sold at Men's Wearhouse to be good value (I think Jack Victor used to be available there routinely).

Personally I don't find anything Brooks Brothers sells, except maybe socks, to be particularly good value, even at sale price. It is pretty reliable, though overpriced for what it is.

At progressively higher points in the price spectrum, I think H. Freeman, Hickey-Freeman and Canali present very good value. Zegna's fully canvassed stuff is reasonably priced given its high quality. Oxxford, too, though it's value at a pretty high point.

At one time Macy's had a line of Loro Piana fabrics in an OEM line of tailored goods they sold (full or half canvas), but they quit selling it some time ago. It was unbelievable value; tant pis.


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## Placebo Effect (Mar 15, 2013)

MaxBuck said:


> Joseph Abboud, who makes half-canvas suits in the USA, was available for about $430 OTR during Nordstrom's recent anniversary sale. List was, I believe, $699. At the sale price I found them to be outstanding value. I've found most things sold at Men's Wearhouse to be good value (I think Jack Victor used to be available there routinely).
> 
> Personally I don't find anything Brooks Brothers sells, except maybe socks, to be particularly good value, even at sale price. It is pretty reliable, though overpriced for what it is.


I actually bought one of my Jack Victors from Men's Wearhouse. They're a consistently good deal on staples when they run BOGO or 50% off, when you can get them for $400 each, technically less since MW also gives you a $50 reward certificate for every $500 you spend. At Sierra Trading Post/Gilt/Bluefly you can find them for about $300, sometimes even less, but they rarely have staples in the size you want. Patterns abound.

I certainly agree with you about Brooks Brothers. The 1818 doesn't strike me as anywhere near what they charge, even on sale. For that price I'd just find a mainline Hickey Freeman, fully canvassed.


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## scholl43 (Jul 22, 2013)

Wish I had found this forum/thread months ago when I bought a bunch of Alfani suits. Picked up three for under $500 after sale prices plus opening a credit card. These were suit separates at $400/coat and $150/pants. So originally $1650 plus tax. I think this is a really great thread for people like me who need to establish a professional wardrobe on a tight budget. Luckily I did it in advance of actually needing the suits so I wouldn't be paying full price. 

I'm wary to use eBay or deal sites since I find fit to wildly vary for me. The biggest thing I find is that coats often have arms cut too low and wide. I prefer a slimmer fit coat, but if I'm buying a full suit, the pants are usually a bit too small while the jacket will fit perfectly.


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## TimelesStyle (Aug 25, 2013)

zzdocxx said:


> I remember reading the last thread along these lines.
> 
> One thing that stood out was that "Benjamin Sartorial" seemed like a great value. They are supposedly full-canvassed, although as other discussions have illuminated, sometimes that term is used with suits that are also fused.
> 
> Don't know about these, but have seen them for sale on ehaberdasher, in limited colors however.


This is eHaberdasher's own line. The owner of EH, Benjamin, has these made and sold under his own label. I have one and it was a great value for the money. Material not _quite_ as fine as RLBL or Zegna mainline (but very nearly so), but they are indeed fully canvassed. I think he was trying to have more stock available perhaps with other colors. They are also awesome to deal with; I bought a suit in one size and was allowed to exchange just the trousers for a different size, which isn't usually the case.


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## TheBarbaron (Oct 8, 2010)

Placebo Effect said:


> I actually bought one of my Jack Victors from Men's Wearhouse. They're a consistently good deal on staples when they run BOGO or 50% off, when you can get them for $400 each, technically less since MW also gives you a $50 reward certificate for every $500 you spend. At Sierra Trading Post/Gilt/Bluefly you can find them for about $300, sometimes even less, but they rarely have staples in the size you want. Patterns abound.
> 
> I certainly agree with you about Brooks Brothers. The 1818 doesn't strike me as anywhere near what they charge, even on sale. For that price I'd just find a mainline Hickey Freeman, fully canvassed.


Yeah, the Victors are a consistently available nice brand for MW. We also just purchased Joseph Abboud (the label and the factory, since we hired the man a while ago), so I'm hoping to see domestically manufactured and MTM suits under that label in my store soonish.


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## Mapleton (Sep 6, 2009)

Where do Banana Republic suits fit on this list?


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Mapleton said:


> Where do Banana Republic suits fit on this list?


Too tight. Especially the trousers


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