# Allen Edmonds Park Avenue Alternative?



## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

All -

I understand that a *black* cap-toe Balmoral is the ultimate in business-shoe attire and I'd like to check that box in my shoe wardrobe.

My problem is that the Park Avenue (and by extension, the 5th Avenue) is not complimentary on my foot. Due to the location of the toe cap, they make my feet look even longer than the size 15 that they already are.

Is there another black shoe in the AE catalog that the sartorial perfectionists among us would recommend? Would a Strand be too busy? Would a Lexington (a Derby) be too informal?

I welcome your thoughts.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

You might want to consider the Carlyle:

https://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF8830_1_40000000001_-1?style=8836

or the Vernon:

https://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF8808_1_40000000001_-1?style=8838


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

While the black, cap-toe Bal is the best choice, the AE PA is not the best example, just the most common. The location of the toe cap seam is a common cause for complaint both for reasons of comfort and proportion/aesthetics. Before giving up on the cap-toe bal, take a look at other examples. Maybe the Loake Aldwych from Herring. It's priced below the PA, is comparable in quality and doesn't suffer from the clunkiness and odd proportions of the AE.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

I second the notion of the Carlyle. That is a great looking shoe in person. AE has done some cool stuff with different lasts recently.

Also, this is my FAVORITE AE model right now:

The Harrison. And, it is available in your size, for $177 right now here:

https://www.shoebank.com/FactorySecondInventory.php?STY=7613S&DIM=D&SIZE=150

Your Welcome!


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

Embrace your big feet and buy the ultimate business shoe.


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

hardline_42 said:


> While the black, cap-toe Bal is the best choice, the AE PA is not the best example, just the most common. The location of the toe cap seam is a common cause for complaint both for reasons of comfort and proportion/aesthetics. Before giving up on the cap-toe bal, take a look at other examples. Maybe the Loake Aldwych from Herring. It's priced below the PA, is comparable in quality and doesn't suffer from the clunkiness and odd proportions of the AE.


Unfortunately, the none of the Brits offer anything in the equivalent of a US size 15D. Bespoke is always an option but its out of my budget.


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## WildCard22 (Feb 23, 2015)

I think that the park avenue is the best lookinf show that Allen Edmonds makes, but the 5 last is tricky to get a great fit in my experience.


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

Bandit44 said:


> Embrace your big feet and buy the ultimate business shoe.


No. It isn't a flattering look. After you get to a certain size, PA's simply don't work.


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

Watchman said:


> I second the notion of the Carlyle. That is a great looking shoe in person. AE has done some cool stuff with different lasts recently.
> 
> Also, this is my FAVORITE AE model right now:
> 
> ...


I saw those and I actually went to look at a pair of Harrisons in person. They have the same short toe cap and my guess is that they will have the same issues at in a larger size. Here is a photo comparison from elsewhere on the web:


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I agree about the placement of the toe cap on the PA. It's far too forward for my taste as well. I don't have long feet (9.5D), but I still find it an odd look.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

IotaNet said:


> I saw those and I actually went to look at a pair of Harrisons in person. They have the same short toe cap and my guess is that they will have the same issues at length.
> 
> Here is a photo comparison from elsewhere on the web:


^^^Wow, that is shocking...:cold:

Okay. How about Alden?

The Hampton Last is a great alternative to the 65:


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

You could take a look at the Johnston & Murphy Georgetown II (Crown Aristocraft). Made in USA, recraftable, Goodyear welt, comparable price.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Watchman said:


> I second the notion of the Carlyle. That is a great looking shoe in person. AE has done some cool stuff with different lasts recently.
> 
> Also, this is my FAVORITE AE model right now:
> 
> ...


Is the Harrison available made to order?


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Audi S5 TC said:


> Is the Harrison available made to order?


I don't know about that but it sure is a beautiful shoe for the money.

IMHO that 333 last holds its own against more expensive English and Euro lasts.

I have a friend who owns the Harrison in black cordovan and it is a show stopper.

I would call Allison and see what she can do for you.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

My only cap-toe bals are PAs, and they now seem kind of bulbous to me in 11E. Thanks for the tips, guys! I'm going to see if I can do better.


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

Watchman said:


> ^^^Wow, that is shocking...:cold:
> 
> Okay. How about Alden?
> 
> The Hampton Last is a great alternative to the 65:


These are what I have and I greatly prefer them over the Park Avenue (which was my first legit dress shoe). I think the cap is a better size and I can really tell the difference between wearing a shoe with a steel shank and one without. However, they're sort of bulbous when compared to the British or other Euro offerings.


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## Domnul (Oct 24, 2014)

I can sympathize with you - I wear a size 14, so when I look for dress shoes, all I ever look at is AE. I have never seen another good dress shoe maker who regularly stocks shoes at that length or above.

One question: do you already own AE shoes? I have worn a 14D in dress shoes all my life, but for some reason I had to size up to 14E in AE otherwise the shoes would pinch either my 1st or 5th toe. I measure 13.5B/C on the Brannock and went through a long process of trial and error to figure out that a 13E and 14D didn't work. I always wondered about a 13EEE (since the 5 last runs long) but ended up using insoles and creative padding to make the 14E work. Compared to my previous Rockports, etc, AE makes my feet look positively svelte. Returning shoes to AE is easy, but since they don't typically stock sizes that big you wait 4 weeks for the shoe to ship, return it for an exchange, wait 4 more weeks, etc. It's better than having expensive shoes that don't fit well, and certainly better than paying to return something to Spain or Hungary.

The Carlyle is a very nice looking shoe, and I have it in black and dark chili, but I would stop short of calling it the ultimate business shoe. In black, it just looks too formal to me, for my purposes at least. I don't wear it much at all, even with business suits. 

Does your height match your shoe size? I have read several places that taller people can (and should try to) use more ornamentation on their shoes, as it "breaks up" their height. Not saying I buy that, but I think something like a Strand or a bal wingtip would look very good, and be slightly more versatile, especially in a color like black. I don't know if that would make your foot look longer, but if you don't like them just mail them back.

The only thing that will reliably make your feet look smaller is a wider pant leg. I would stay away from Suit Supply (although I found out they also offer free returns the hard way.) A size 15 shoe poking out of a 7.5 inch pant leg that only covers the first eyelet looks quite bad with or without a toe cap, or so I thought when I looked in the mirror.


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

Domnul said:


> I can sympathize with you - I wear a size 14, so when I look for dress shoes, all I ever look at is AE. _<snip>_ One question: do you already own AE shoes? _<snip>_ Not saying I buy that, but I think something like a Strand or a bal wingtip would look very good, and be slightly more versatile, especially in a color like black.


FWIW, I have 16 pair of AE's. The styles I have in Black are:

Bleecker Street
Boston
Burton
Grayson
Nashua
Sanford
Weekender
Weybridge

Obviously, none of those are the *"ultimate business shoe"* that *"the rules"* say that I'm supposed to have but the Sanfords _(and to a lesser extent the Weybridges)_ are what I use to fill the bill.

One thing about "the rules" and that a Gentleman knows when to break them when they don't apply to him. I think my best bet in this situation will be a pair of Black Strands or MacAllisters. _(The Rutledge is also nice but $500 is pretty dear)_

*Here's a question: Is a highly shined Derby classy enough? To my eyes, the Lexington is a great looking shoe.* (https://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF2996_1_40000000001_-1_)


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

IotaNet said:


> One thing about "the rules" and that a Gentleman knows when to break them when they don't apply to him. I think my best bet in this situation will be a pair of Black Strands or MacAllisters.


Exactly. There are no *Rules*, only guidelines that may or may not apply in each individual's case. Since you believe that in your case they do not, wear what you think works best. And remember that 99% of the people you meet will only note that your shoes are highly polished and fit your frame. Only in sites like this one will the exact details even be noticed.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

IotaNet,

You have to decide what you want. We here at AAAC can tell you our "opinion" till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, you must decide.

Everyone here knows that every man needs a black cap toe balmoral in his shoe rotation.

Yes, Alden's are blobby, but many of their designs are for men who have a foot just like yours...hard to fit feet is where Alden shines the most. (For me at least)

AE are more readily available and the Strand is their one of their best designs IMHO. And yes, black will work.

Here is an ideal shoe from a Euro manufacturer that we all agree is a competent shoe maker:



It is available in your size, for around $199 here:

Carmina trumps AE completely and Alden in many cases as far as QUALITY is concerned.

The Detroit Last was designed with Americano's in mind....


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

This is AAAC and we all know that the black cap toe balmoral is THE quintessential dress shoe.

Can you scoot by under the radar by the seat of your pants and not have one?

Absolutely.

But, when you slip your foot into a pair of shoes that is widely accepted by Sartorialists the world over as being the epitome of what a well dressed gentlemen should wear...know that you are following in the foot steps of generations of well dressed gentlemen who have went on before you...

Do you want to settle for second best? (I am just asking...)

Please do not misunderstand my post, I am passionate about dressing my best, and, I am passionate about helping other men reach their maximum potential.

I learned that from AAAC by the way.

Are you somehow incompetent if you do not take my advice?

No. But, just know that I believe you will not find true fulfillment in your heart until you have found the quintessential dress shoe....


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## Domnul (Oct 24, 2014)

*Here's a question: Is a highly shined Derby classy enough? To my eyes, the Lexington is a great looking shoe.* (https://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF2996_1_40000000001_-1_)[/QUOTE]

I have always thought so, and my black Derby's are what I usually end up wearing instead of the Carlyle's. My opinion doesn't mean much, but if you look at the WAYWT thread, post 31381, you will see that style worn on someone whose style is beyond reproach. And like OldSarge says, no one else will notice. If captoe shoes are what you want, by all means get the Lexington.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

One last thought. 

Email Betty from Carmina, tell her you are a member of AAAC and that Joel told you to get in touch with her.

She may or may not remember me. If I was a betting man, (And I am not) I would bet that she will know me.

Be very detailed about your situation and what you need/want and she will help you.

Carmina is offering free shipping on orders over 250 Euros...so get a belt to boot. :cool2:

Best Wishes My Friend!


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## Domnul (Oct 24, 2014)

Watchman said:


> IotaNet,
> 
> You have to decide what you want. We here at AAAC can tell you our "opinion" till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, you must decide.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. I never even bother looking for these large sizes anymore because I assumed they didn't exist in these brands people talk about on this forum. The prospect of returning them is a little more daunting if they don't fit, though.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Domnul said:


> *Here's a question: Is a highly shined Derby classy enough? To my eyes, the Lexington is a great looking shoe.* (https://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF2996_1_40000000001_-1_)


I have always thought so, and my black Derby's are what I usually end up wearing instead of the Carlyle's. My opinion doesn't mean much, but if you look at the WAYWT thread, post 31381, you will see that style worn on someone whose style is beyond reproach. And like OldSarge says, no one else will notice. If captoe shoes are what you want, by all means get the Lexington.[/QUOTE]

^^^Without a doubt...Derby's are classy enough.

But again, the cap toe oxford is THE quintessential dress shoe. I don't think this is simply my opinion.

If the OP does not have one, then of course, we will kindly admonish him to procure one.

That is what the fine men of this wonderful forum did for me when I was faced with this same conundrum. 

Good looking, show stopping alternatives to the AE PA are available...even in size 15...


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Domnul said:


> Very interesting. I never even bother looking for these large sizes anymore because I assumed they didn't exist in these brands people talk about on this forum. The prospect of returning them is a little more daunting if they don't fit, though.


My Friend. Dressing well is a lot of WORK. Helping others dress well is the same. We must be willing to strive for excellence in whatsoever thing we do.

Taking risks is also daunting...but necessary.

Based upon what IotaNet has described about his feet thus far...I believe UK 14 in Carmina Detroit will be a PERFECT fit.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

For illustrative purposes, Here is a last comparison:










Left to Right:

AE 1 last; Carmina Rain; Carmina Detroit; C&J 325; Alden Barrie


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

I gotta get back to work...I am already behind...


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Here is the shoe that I picked up at the good advice from the men of this forum:



Alden Cap Toe Balmoral in Black Cordovan.

And, boy am I glad I did. It is THE BEST fitting shoe I own. And, I find myself looking for excuses to wear them.


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

Watchman said:


> Here is the shoe that I picked up at the good advice from the men of this forum:
> 
> Alden Cap Toe Balmoral in Black Cordovan.
> 
> And, boy am I glad I did. It is THE BEST fitting shoe I own. And, I find myself looking for excuses to wear them.


The shine on those is blinding...and amazing. Well done.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

I think we need to chip in and pay Watchman a stipend for all of his work and kindness!


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

FWIW - I bought a pair of Park Avenues when I moved to Manhattan to start my career because I thought I needed them. I don't think I've worn them or any other black shoe in the past 5 years other than wearing black shoes with a tuxedo. For most people I don't think they're necessary, and unless you are one of the rare people that actually needs them (e.g., appellate lawyer in certain courts) then I don't think you should feel compelled to buy a pair.


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Here is the shoe that I picked up at the good advice from the men of this forum:
> 
> Alden Cap Toe Balmoral in Black Cordovan.
> 
> And, boy am I glad I did. It is THE BEST fitting shoe I own. And, I find myself looking for excuses to wear them.


Those are beautiful -- and the shine is impeccable. Very nice!


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

pleasehelp said:


> FWIW - I bought a pair of Park Avenues when I moved to Manhattan to start my career because I thought I needed them. I don't think I've worn them or any other black shoe in the past 5 years other than wearing black shoes with a tuxedo. For most people I don't think they're necessary, and unless you are one of the rare people that actually needs them (e.g., appellate lawyer in certain courts) then I don't think you should feel compelled to buy a pair.


^^^I actually felt the same way....until I scored a pair of black oxfords that were not the PA...

This is one of the finest resources available anywhere on this subject:

https://www.styleforum.net/t/362365/the-quintessential-dress-shoe-black-cap-toe-oxford

This is the thread that helped me to make the plunge along with the gentle encouragements of my comrades here on AAAC.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

IotaNet said:


> Those are beautiful -- and the shine is impeccable. Very nice!


Thank You Sir.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

pleasehelp said:


> FWIW - I bought a pair of Park Avenues when I moved to Manhattan to start my career because I thought I needed them. I don't think I've worn them or any other black shoe in the past 5 years other than wearing black shoes with a tuxedo. For most people I don't think they're necessary, and unless you are one of the rare people that actually needs them (e.g., appellate lawyer in certain courts) then I don't think you should feel compelled to buy a pair.


I too have lost my appreciation for black shoes - other colors seem to be much more aesthetically pleasing and versatile, without any loss in propriety. I still own three pairs of black shoes (Alden perforated cap toe balmorals, Trickers semi-brogue balmorals, and an old pair of surprisingly nice French calfskin Lands' End tassel loafers), but I'm reasonably certain I'll ever buy another pair of black shoes...


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

What colors, apart from black, do you think go well with grey trousers ?


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

Watchman said:


> This is one of the finest resources available anywhere on this subject:
> 
> https://www.styleforum.net/t/362365/the-quintessential-dress-shoe-black-cap-toe-oxford
> 
> This is the thread that helped me to make the plunge along with the gentle encouragements of my comrades here on AAAC.


Beautiful shoes. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a shoe in that thread (besides AE or Alden) that fits me.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

IotaNet said:


> Beautiful shoes. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a shoe in that thread (besides AE or Alden) that fits me.


There may not be.

But that is not why I provided the link.

That was to help you get a vision for the proper dress shoe. That's all.

The Carmina that I posted a link to would more than suffice your needs.

In the end, you must do what you think is best.

Kindest Regards!


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

In the spirit of full disclosure, I do own these:





Unfortunately, they are made of Nappa Leather which, while comfortable, is not holding its shape as well as I'd like. It's not ripping or tearing but it's like wearing one of those dreadful 1980s unstructured jackets -- they're just not sturdy enough.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

^^^There are some incredible Derby designs in black that would take the place of a cap toe oxford.

If I were you, I would bite the bullet and order those Carmina's on Detroit Last in UK 14. For $199 they are a staggering deal....literally, nothing like them anywhere for the $$$.

The shoes in the youtube link are not fulfilling you obviously.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

zzdocxx said:


> What colors, apart from black, do you think go well with grey trousers ?


Burgundy/oxblood shoes will go very well with all shades of grey trousers, while dark brown shoes will coordinate well with everything from mid-grey to the darkest charcoal grey. Others will recommend shoes in walnut, chestnut, et al., as a combination to be worn with grey, but I'm a bit too conservative to wear those combinations!


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Watchman said:


> Here is the shoe that I picked up at the good advice from the men of this forum:
> 
> Alden Cap Toe Balmoral in Black Cordovan.
> 
> And, boy am I glad I did. It is THE BEST fitting shoe I own. And, I find myself looking for excuses to wear them.


You're making me see black shells in a completely different light! Thanks.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Tiger said:


> Burgundy/oxblood shoes will go very well with all shades of grey trousers, while dark brown shoes will coordinate well with everything from mid-grey to the darkest charcoal grey. Others will recommend shoes in walnut, chestnut, et al., as a combination to be worn with grey, but I'm a bit too conservative to wear those combinations!


I'm a great fan of burgundy and its darker version, black cherry.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

^^^Sarge,

Those are some great looking shoes. And I know you thoroughly enjoy giving them your custom patina.

If the OP does not have a good pair of burgundy balmorals...that is a whole different conversation we need to have.:fool:

Color 8 is particularly beautiful. So, yes, I totally agree on that point.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

I just noticed this wonderful captoe Adelaide from Meermin MTO:


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Speaking of burgundy balmorals. The Alden 9015


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

^^^Better pics tomorrow.


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## sskim3 (Jul 2, 2013)

StephenRG said:


> I just noticed this wonderful captoe Adelaide from Meermin MTO:


Omg too tempting.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

sskim3 said:


> Omg too tempting.....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


FYI, I disagree with the suggestion on the website to go with the same sizing in this Park last as in the Hiro. I would go up 1/2 size, as the Park is narrow.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Gentlemen,

Hope you don't mind me posting a pic of my Alden 9015's after I have given them; "The Treatment"


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

^^^Yes, they are blobby and clunky, but the fit is SUPERB...I wouldn't trade them for anything. :biggrin:


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## IotaNet (Jun 28, 2009)

Closing this out ...

After reviewing my collection, I decided that I don't need a new cap-toe right now. I have a Bruno Magli cap-toe, an Allen Edmonds Weybridge, an Allen Edmonds Sanford, an Allen Edmonds Boston and a John Nordstrom Silk/Patent formal shoe. Those (all of them black) can cover any task that gets thrown at me for the foreseeable future. :biggrin:


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