# Any difference between the Alden PTB and the BB PTB?



## Marley (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi All,

This is probably a silly question, but is there any difference between the Alden PTB in #8 and the BB PTB in #8 except the steel lace hole reinforcements on the BB model and a slight difference in price?

I like the added detail of the steel reinforcements and if everything else is the same, I would lean toward the BB model as my next shoe purchase.

Thanks for your help,

Marley


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Reverse welt on the Alden model, not on BB model.

Looks like the last is different, too?


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## Marley (Apr 4, 2008)

Nice eye for detail. I didn't notice the welt differences until you mentioned them.

I may just opt for the Aldens instead.

Thanks for your help!

Marley


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

both are on the barrie last. the welt ends up looking wider due to the reverse welt on the Alden, which, on a gunboat is probably desirable to most. Alden is slightly cheaper.


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## tonylumpkin (Jun 12, 2007)

Brooks Brothers PTBs are NOT on the Barrie last. They are on the M58 last, which is similar in shape but DOESN'T require sizing down.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

tonylumpkin said:


> Brooks Brothers PTBs are NOT on the Barrie last. They are on the M58 last, which is similar in shape but DOESN'T require sizing down.


+1,000,000

I have an email exchange with Alden proving this fact.


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## ecox (Oct 25, 2009)

joenobody0 said:


> +1,000,000
> 
> I have an email exchange with Alden proving this fact.


Hi. I've had an old pair of BB PTB shells from the mid-90s. They were not on the Barrie last, but I don't know what last they were on. I've also had a newer pair of BB PTB shells, which sure appear to be on the Barrie last -- the size and fit are exactly the same as my Alden PTB shells and chukka shells.

Let's let the pictures do most of the talking:

My old BB PTBs. Size 11.5C. Not the Barrie last; they have a pointier toe and a narrower waist than the Barrie last:










The sole of the old BB PTB after Restoration:










Newer BB PTBs. Size 10.5D:










Alden PTBs. Barrie last. Size 10.5D:










Alden chukkas. Barrie last. Size 10.5D:










Now let's compare a modern BB PTB with a modern Alden chukka, which is on the Barrie last (please ignore the belt; this is the only picture of mine I could find that has these two shoes in the same shot):










Ignoring the welting differences, they sure look like the same last to me. And they are both 10.5Ds.

Based on my experiences with BB and Alden shells, I believe that several years ago the BB PTB was on some last other than the Barrie, but now the BB PTB is on the Barrie last. As a result, the current BB PTB sizes and fits exactly the same as a Barrie-lasted Alden PTB.

And for my money, I'd go with the Alden. I think the Alden version simply looks nicer. Whether it's because of the lack of metal lace holes, the reverse welt, or something else, I prefer Alden's PTB to BB's.

-Erik


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## RTW (Jan 7, 2006)

According to Alden, the BB PTB is indeed made on the Barrie last.


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

its probably an issue of old vs new, like their lhs and copley v. van.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

If you get on the Shoemart seconds list, you'll see PTB shells on the M58 last. Without fail, these shoes have no storm welt, and do have the eyelets. M58 is the last Alden told me they use on the BB PTB. I feel fairly comfortable saying the seconds I described are Alden for BB. 

 The question now becomes "how does the M58 fit compared to the Barrie". My feeling is they fit exactly the same with a .5 length shift up (to fit TTS). I'm actually wearing a pair of BB PTBs right now in size 8D. They look and fit exactly like my Alden Barrie lasted shoes in 7.5D. It's very hard to disagree with those pictures though, so I'm not sure what the real story is. Maybe the sizing is inconsistent, but I can say with absolute certainty, that I would not be able to wear an 8D Barrie lasted shoe (a Barrie in 7D is too wide for me).
 
Unfortunately I can't find the email from Alden.


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

This is all very interesting. I have an e-mail from Alden from December 2010 saying to size down for the BB shoes.


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## PeterW (May 14, 2004)

For about the last 3 announcements, Shoemart has had seconds with metal eyelets and no reverse welt(i.e., appear to be BB PTB) in black cordo in Shoemart describes as "Barrie" last.

I bought a pair of BB PTB #8 during BB December sale and they fit exactly like my Alden Barrie last shoes in same size.


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

Tony and Joe,
This is my exchange with Alden about this:

hello Mr. Ek,

Thank you for your message.
We would recommend size 9 D in the Brooks Brothers PTB you are interested in.
Hope this helps
Happy Holidays,
Alden Shoe Co

----- Original Message ----- 
*From:* Edwin Ek 
*To:* [email protected] 
*Sent:* Friday, December 03, 2010 2:38 PM
*Subject:* Brooks Brothers PTB Sizing

Hello,

I own two pairs of Alden shell cordovan PTB shoes already: in whiskey and cigar. Generally I wear size 9.5D, but I take a size 9D in those, because the barrie last runs about half-a-size big.

I am thinking of buying the PTB in color #8 from Brooks Brothers. I have heard that you change the sizing printed on the inside to reflect that they run big. Is that true? In other words, should I buy a 9D or 9.5D from Brooks Brothers?

Thanks for your help.
Edwin Ek
Los Angeles
Owner of about 25 pairs of Alden shells


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

The plot thickens. Alden is saying the BB shoe is made on the M-58 last, but also that you should size down.

Hello Mr. Ek,

The Plain Toe Blucher that we make for Brooks Brothers is on the M-58 last.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Alden Shoe Co
----- Original Message ----- 
*From:* Edwin Ek 
*To:* [email protected] 
*Sent:* Thursday, March 03, 2011 7:22 PM
*Subject:* RE: Brooks Brothers PTB Sizing

Hello Again,

Is the Brooks Brothers PTB shoe made on the Barrie last or the M58 last? I have heard conflicting information. Perhaps the last changed at some time in the past?

Thanks,
Ed

*From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:35 PM
*To:* Edwin Ek
*Subject:* Re: Brooks Brothers PTB Sizing

hello Mr. Ek,

Thank you for your message.
We would recommend size 9 D in the Brooks Brothers PTB you are interested in.
Hope this helps
Happy Holidays,
Alden Shoe Co

----- Original Message ----- 
*From:* Edwin Ek 
*To:* [email protected] 
*Sent:* Friday, December 03, 2010 2:38 PM
*Subject:* Brooks Brothers PTB Sizing

Hello,

I own two pairs of Alden shell cordovan PTB shoes already: in whiskey and cigar. Generally I wear size 9.5D, but I take a size 9D in those, because the barrie last runs about half-a-size big.

I am thinking of buying the PTB in color #8 from Brooks Brothers. I have heard that you change the sizing printed on the inside to reflect that they run big. Is that true? In other words, should I buy a 9D or 9.5D from Brooks Brothers?

Thanks for your help.
Edwin Ek
Los Angeles
Owner of about 25 pairs of Alden shells


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Another potential issue is that I have the calf version of the M58 PTB. I wonder if the shells fit differently than the calf (beyond the difference that's always there for shell versus calf).


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## g.michael (Jul 9, 2010)

Based on the experience from posters on this site, I sized down (from 10.5 C in most shoes I wear--AE/Alden) to 10D when buying an older pair of the shell BB PTB's sight unseen. The width is fine, the length is not--I definitely need a 10.5C in these.

I was recently in Dallas and tried on the Alden PTB in 10.5 C (too big), then sized down to 10D (too wide). It seems the 10C was about the right fit--down half a size in length AND width. The Alden version has the storm welt (which the BB lacks) so this could have possibly added some extra room in the width, although I have 10.5C storm welted shoes and they fit fine.

So for me, BB PTB in 10.5C (my normal size) works but the Alden would have to be a half size down (10C). This would suggest a different last is used.

This pair is probably 10-15 years old so if there was a recent last change then this anecdote may not apply today. I personally like the BB version better without the storm welt and with the metal eyelets so I am on the lookout for a 10.5C pair.


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## Marley (Apr 4, 2008)

g.michael,

I am following exactly in your footsteps in an effort to find the correct Alden PTB (read Barrie) fit. 

I currently own a pair of LWBs and Saddles in 10D (normally a 10.5D in other brands) and while the length is correct, they still feel a bit too wide. With no local store to try shoes on, I am resorting to the multiple shoe size order via Shoe Mart. I have both the 10D and 10C in the PTB #8 coming next week and we will see if the narrower shoe is indeed a better fit.

Marley


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

My problem with the Barrie last is the super wide heel. If you look at the insole, the difference in width between the ball of your foot and the heel is much smaller than most other lasts. This creates a situation (for me) where you can get a good fit at the ball of your foot, with excess space in the heel. Alternately, you can get a good fit at the heel, but be way too narrow at the ball. Keep this in mind as you experiment with sizing. 

I really wish I could find some classic styles on lasts besides the Barrie. The Leydon last looks very similar to the Barrie, but with a more standard width decrease at the heel. On the other hand, I bet if you find the Barrie to truly fit you well, you probably have difficulty finding other lasts that work well.


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

Joe,

You know no doubt that Aldens come sized in both the heel and the main part of the shoe. A typical width is B/D. Perhaps you could order A/D?


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

The saddles you have on the WFAYWT thread do look quite wide and a tad long. Going a size down is not a bad idea. Just try it for kicks.


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## Marley (Apr 4, 2008)

Actually, the saddles are a good fit in length (10D down from my normal 10.5D). It's the width that could be reduced a bit.

What is more challenging is that each pair of Aldens tends to have sufficient variation (due to the hand-made nature of the shoe) so that half a dozen pairs of a certain model in a specific size will each fit with slight differences in feel and comfort.

My Barrie-lasted Saddles are really a pretty good fit on the right side, but looser on the left. My Barrie-lasted LWBs are pretty darn loose on both sides. As I noted in a separate thread, a recent LHS purchase (10D Van last) was too loose for my left foot while my current LHS (10D Van last) are just perfect.

I will definitely consider a long vacation weekend in perhaps San Francisco with a trip to the Alden store there just to be able to try several pairs of a certain model before purchase. It's either that or order several pairs from Shoe Mart and return all but the best fit. We'll have to see.

In the mean time, both pairs of PTBs (10C and 10D) should be here by the end of next week and I will let the group know of my findings.

Marley


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Edwin Ek said:


> Joe,
> 
> You know no doubt that Aldens come sized in both the heel and the main part of the shoe. A typical width is B/D. Perhaps you could order A/D?


If only that were possible! I've confirmed with Alden it is not.


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## TheWGP (Jan 15, 2010)

joenobody0 said:


> If only that were possible! I've confirmed with Alden it is not.


Really? I've seen a pair or two of shoes for sale that had this very thing done - so clearly it's POSSIBLE, whether they'll do it without much cajoling and perhaps factors depending on the last and the particular shoe is another matter. It might be a situation like on recrafting, where they essentially stopped accommodating people's requests for slight size stretching/tightening when it got to be too much of a hassle for them.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Fraser Tartan said:


> The Barrie last is the only fit in any shoe I've tried where I've found that any form of narrow is best for me. I'm usually a 10.5D and sometimes a 10D or foreign equivalent and with the Barrie last a 10 B/D fits me best.


I don't follow what you're saying. A Barrie lasted 10 B/D is the standard width. It's a "D" width in the front, and a "B" width in the back. A size 10 A/C, or 10 AA/B, or 10 AAA/A would all be narrow.


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

The 'combination' last or 'split' last is, I believe, a figure of speech. It does not involve two separate pieces of wood, one for the back and one for the front. Alden has solid lasts which are termed A/C, B/D, etc. They cannot mix and match an AA heel with an E forepart. All shoes are made on one of their lasts which have a two-width differential built in, but it's a nominal differential, not an actual one. If anyone knows different I'd be first in line to have them make such adjustments.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

well-kept said:


> The 'combination' last or 'split' last is, I believe, a figure of speech. It does not involve two separate pieces of wood, one for the back and one for the front. Alden has solid lasts which are termed A/C, B/D, etc. They cannot mix and match an AA heel with an E forepart. All shoes are made on one of their lasts which have a two-width differential built in, but it's a nominal differential, not an actual one. If anyone knows different I'd be first in line to have them make such adjustments.


That's my understanding and experience as well. The difference in width between the heel and the ball is totally nominal; that's why the Barrie has so little "step down" from the ball to heel, but still claims to drop two widths. Just check the drop on some of the other lasts (Plaza in particular) versus the Barrie to see how arbitrary the nomenclature is.


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## ds23pallas (Aug 22, 2006)

Epaminondas said:


> Reverse welt on the Alden model, not on BB model.


I was in the local BB shop yesterday and took a quick look at the shoes in question. The # 8 coloured shoes were "correct" for a BB PTB, but the black shell shoes _did_ have the reverse welt. Is the black shoe supposed to be different from the # 8, or was this a "mistake"? It did have the metal eyelets so was not a "true" Alden-branded shoe.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Fraser Tartan said:


> It may be confusion on my part. I'm a "D" or equivalent in everything else I've tried but when fitting into a Barrie-lasted shoe, I tried the "B/D" and that fit me correctly. I didn't know that the "B/D" combination was the standard width and presumed the "B" part meant it was a narrow compared to some "D"-only (real or imaginary) Barrie last.


"B/D" is the standard width. You could just as easily describe it as "D" (as Alden does on a few pair of my Alden for BB shoes).


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

The final say out of Alden:

Morning,
Both are based on military lasts, with full, round toe shape and generous over all fitting characteristics. The Barrie probably offers a bit more toe room but, in truth, it is quite difficult to distinguish the fit of one from the other.
Regards,
Brenda
Alden Shoe 
----- Original Message ----- 
*From:* Edwin Ek 
*To:* [email protected] 
*Sent:* Friday, March 04, 2011 5:41 PM
*Subject:* RE: Brooks Brothers PTB Sizing

Thanks for this. My final questions, I assure you, are how do the two lasts, Barrie and M-58, differ? They look the same to this untrained eye. And, where did this special last come about? What is the history of it?

As you can perhaps tell, I am a fan of your shoes.

Thanks again,
Edwin Ek


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## g.michael (Jul 9, 2010)

Sounds like the BB version then, fits more true to size, which is my experience. Size down in the Alden.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Maria at BB Madison told me that the BB version is roomier than the Barrie and the size number is TTS and no sizing down is needed. Ed at SM told me that the Barrie is roomier. I size down on both Barrie and M58. 
I agree with Brenda at Alden, it is hard to distinguish. For me, they are the same. The difference for me is between the Balmoral and the Blucher. If the Balmoral has extra space, then it may be a width issue.


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

De gustibus non disputandum est. Everyone should choose a shoe size that suits them. Alden's advice is clear.


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## Marley (Apr 4, 2008)

In following up on my earlier entry in this thread, I tried both the PTB in 10D and 10C. The C stayed and the D went back to Shoe Mart.

It took a few hours to make the final selection, but with just a slight amount of wear time here in the den, the 10C just felt better. It was slightly snug at first, but then loosened up and now feels great (~3 hours of total wear time).

Marley


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## toneman (Mar 12, 2011)

Interesting post as I'm looking for my first quality loafer and it seems the Alden 986 gets the best reviews but there are no Alden dealers near me. Also BB is having a sale and I don't believe Alden ever does. So its seems that the Alden Cordovan LHS (986) in #8 basically the same shoe as the BB Cordovan unlined penny loafer in burgundy, the differences being that the BB being unlined and maybe a bit roomier due to a the a different barre? Is the #8 color the same as BB burgundy?


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## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

BB Burgundy is the #8. I have the BB unlined. Nice shoe and maybe just slightly roomier than lined 986. Can't go wrong with either one.



toneman said:


> Interesting post as I'm looking for my first quality loafer and it seems the Alden 986 gets the best reviews but there are no Alden dealers near me. Also BB is having a sale and I don't believe Alden ever does. So its seems that the Alden Cordovan LHS (986) in #8 basically the same shoe as the BB Cordovan unlined penny loafer in burgundy, the differences being that the BB being unlined and maybe a bit roomier due to a the a different barre? Is the #8 color the same as BB burgundy?


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