# Independent/Individual Self-Sovereign



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

This is a subject I brought up at SF. I would like to discuss the subject here at AAF.

The _Independent Self-Sovereign_ is a term I have recently coined. Interchangeably, I also refer to this as _Indivudual Self-Sovereign_, or _ISS_.

Independent Self-Sovereign: An individual who is self-employed and not anchored by his/her economic interests to any particular nation or economy. Such individuals have taken advantage of modern technology and knowledge where they can earn income on a worldwide basis.

Here are some of the charactersitics that I am seeing of others I meet on my travels who I put in the category of Independent Self-Sovereign:

1. Almost all have zero debt, and I mean nada. Paid off mortgages, payment in cash lifestyles, with credit cards used only when carrying cash is not a good option. Even with credit cards, they are paid in full before interest rates can accrue.

2. The zero debt lifestyle and cash reserves allow them to ride out market fluctuations for their services and/or goods.

3. They are not employees, but may have multiple clients or customers, hence they are NOT tied to a single payor. Instead of getting fired by clients, they may typically drop a client that proves unworthy. They have much discretion and selectivity.

4. They can stay ahead of the "trade winds" and hence can adapt and turn their business strategy and tactics on a dime. Adaptability is their trademark since they are unencumbered by the bureaucracies of large organizations.

5. They appear to have transcended the need for government, and look upon government with disdain. Hence they regard themselves as Libertarian self-sovereigns.

6. Most speak at least two languages, with a good percentage speaking more. All are very well-travelled.

7. Proper dress, grooming, and etiquette is noticeable on them.

8. They tend to have a good deal of discretionary time for leisure activities and often couple this with their business travel.

9. They have extensive international social networks in addition to their business contacts.

10. Most do not, as a matter of policy, intermingle their business contacts with their social contacts.

12. Tha majority seem to be well over 35 yrs. of age, though I met one 28-yr. old woman from Portugal while on business travel in Angola.

13. Some, particularly those from Europe, do not own cars.

14. Most are in very good physical shape.

15. They work alone. Kinda like Simon Templar.

16. They invest their income either back in their business, or in instruments where they can generate rents, royalties and dividends, but this does not include publicly traded securities.

M8


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Well, you've pretty much described the 'ideal' situation for most of us, but cold hard reality says that 99.9999...% of us will never escape mortages or some debt, will always work for someone else, and will never have much luck with the right portfolio mix. Bully for those who get it right, but don't bust yer a** too hard chasing dreams. (Yes, I am a dead anchor of a personality.)

The people you've described are somewhat too self-centred for my tastes, I certainly would never socialize with someone like that. They no doubt sneer at all gov'ts and/or 'big organization' of any kind, but overlook the reality that they could not exist without states, regulated trade, oversighted investment markets, and military power to ensure some basic level of international peace.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for the feedback *Doctor Damage*, and see the Angola post.

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I found this subject to be of immense interest. Perhaps you might elaborate on the following:

1] Can you cite specific (anonymous) examples of a few of the niches you have experienced of witnessed into which these entrepreneurs have landed?

2] Do you find a predominance of one sex over the other. If so, by a small or large majority?

3] Though disdain for governments is easily understandable ... and the availability of offshore $torage obvious, cash can go only so far before storage becomes a security issue. Do you find that the practitioners generally establish one locale as a base? If so, and the base is not their own privately owned non-governed island, have you experienced the possibility of complete freedom from the regulations & statutes of the base nation?

4] Passports & visas?

5] Is the 'don't own cars' a preference or an avoidance of the inevitable statutory registration requirements and all of the pitfalls that might cause?

6] "Rents, royalties, and dividends" indicates property ownership. How does this relate to the questions I posed in #3?

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

What about the need to be protected from thugs who do not respect the ISS and wish to steal their loot. Do they still disdain government in that case?


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> 
> What about the need to be protected from thugs who do not respect the ISS and wish to steal their loot. Do they still disdain government in that case?


I would suspect self-reliance to be their strong suit and that the answer to your inquiry is probably yes. But will gladly wait for a response from M-8.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> 
> What about the need to be protected from thugs who do not respect the ISS and wish to steal their loot. Do they still disdain government in that case?


The disdain is for intrusive and overbearing government, and bureaucrats who see themselves as sovereigns over the citizenry, where in reality they are simply our hired help.

Government should provided physical protection to its citizens in the form of police and military, and should provide a criminal justice system. Also a court system where civil torts can be addressed.

An ISS is not anti-government, but perhaps a government minimalist. Personally I refer to government as "gooberment", as in Goober and Gomer 

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 So the ISS heartily support government insofar as it is a direct benefit to themselves, but otherwise reject it (even when it helps others). How intellectually childish.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I hate to be the cynic, but something tells me the native habitat of the ISS is in their parent's basement which has been converted into a flat and their natural leisure activity is watching James Bond films and picturing their face on whichever actor is playing Bond in that film.

I am not saying such individuals might not exist. What I am saying is that I find it very difficult to believe there are more than a handful that exist and most of those are trust fund babies. I mean zero debt (per #2) yet they are purchasing rental properties (per #16)? 

I freely admit I am currently a salaryman (albiet a highly compensated one) but I have three gentlemen that are part of my personal network with net worths of over $10 million USD. None of them are debt free. They finance their real estate holdings and projects (I do not know about their houses, but I suspect those are paid for). They only speak English and a smattering of Spanish. They work their asses off just like I do and vacation no more than the usual executive level person. They all own multiple vehicles, albiet not a single Rolls; usually nice late model luxury brands but even then, not the top line model i.e. a BMW 500 vs. 700 series. They do not dress in anything other than khakis or dockers on a daily basis and favor RL shirts repleat with pony. I have never seen one of them in a suit worthy of AAAC standards.

I am sorry, but I really think the ISS concept is largely the results of someone's wishful thinking. I could well be wrong and await correction.

Warmest regards


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> 
> I found this subject to be of immense interest. Perhaps you might elaborate on the following:
> 
> ...


1. Rights & Releases type attorney. Independent lawyer who counsels motion picture companies on rights and releases of their films in different countries.

2. I haven't really done a survey as to gender. However, since I am a womanizer, I gravitate to the female ones 

3. All the ones I have met have a legal residence, and pay taxes in accordance with the laws of where they reside and where they earn their income. There are ways to hide, but this is risky. Why take the risk? Never risk jail, I say.

4. I am a an active dual-national, and use two passports.

5. The ones who do not own cars travel a lot and reside in cities that have good transportation systems.

6. They still have to pay taxes. However, they take the income that they generate from their practice and invest it in ventures that generate _Sleeping Money_. Most of us only make money while we are awake and working. Sleeping Money is made while we are awake and asleep. It is passive income. One ISS I met has purchased over ten homes, paying cash for each, she rents them. The home values increase with time, plus she generates income off of them. A property management company manages it for her for a fee.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> Here are some of the charactersitics that I am seeing of others I meet on my travels who I put in the category of Independent Self-Sovereign:


Just to be clear, we are to suppose from this statment you are such an individual?

Warmest regards


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_ So the ISS heartily support government insofar as it is a direct benefit to themselves, but otherwise reject it (even when it helps others). How intellectually childish.


They support programs where the benefit is common to all. Highways would be another example.

Welfare programs, probably not.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> I hate to be the cynic, but something tells me the native habitat of the ISS is in their parent's basement which has been converted into a flat and their natural leisure activity is watching James Bond films and picturing their face on whichever actor is playing Bond in that film.
> 
> ...


You may be interested in reading some books by Stanley Thomas. Namely the _Millionaire Next Door_ and _The Millionaire Mind_. You may also want to check out Dave Ramsey's website, or listen to his radio show a couple of times.

ISS ranks are growing, at least from what I observe. However, I should empahsize that it is a lifestyle, and not a business model.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does it matter with respect to the thesis?

However, if you'd like to know more about me. You can check my West Africa and Las Vegas posts.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> You may be interested in reading some books by Stanley Thomas. Namely the _Millionaire Next Door_ and _The Millionaire Mind_.


Actually, I have read the first book. It was several years ago, but if memory serves, it runs counter to your description. The average joe millionare is a hard worker, owns a car, and is deeply tied to a local economy i.e. has developed a local business into a personal fortune. Please correct me if that summation is incorrect.

Warmest regards


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_...
> 
> I hate to be the cynic, but something tells me the native habitat of the ISS is in their parent's basement which has been converted into a flat and their natural leisure activity is watching James Bond films and picturing their face on whichever actor is playing Bond in that film...


Very funny

Actually, James Bond would be a very poor role model. After all, poor James is but a mere public servant who is constantly being berated by his boss 'M'.

Simon Templar would be better fictional example.

As for the real-life type, if you want one with a bit of panache, I would say Porfirio "Felix" Rubirosa  He died in 1960, crashing his Ferrari somewhere in Paris.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your recollection is correct. This is a modification to that model. However, the principle is that these individuals are debt-free, so we know that this is achieveable. The breakthru in Thomas' book is that he defines the big difference between _Income Rich_ and _Asset Rich_.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I hate to sound grumpy, but what you have just basically said is, "The reference book I provided in proof of my thesis, really does not support my thesis." I am afraid that is not very good support for the ISS. I hate to sound so contrary here, perhaps it is this bothersome piob I am practicing while we converse.

Warmest regards


----------



## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Seems to me like you just put together an arbitrary collection of characteristics that is a conglomeration of people that you have run into that you admire.

I don't see any necessary relationship between most of the characteristics you describe. For example, there are plenty of people that have the economic characteristics of the ISS but that do not dress and groom properly (though what is "proper" is highly subjective) or that are not in good shape.

You may well be noticing all of these characteristics in the people that you meet, but that might only be because you find these characteristics important and therefore tend to be attracted to people that have all of these characteristics. But I don't think that there's any special relationship about the characteristics you identified.


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think the _ad homs_ bring any substance to the discussion. M8 has posited his opinion of the purpose of government. Stating that it is "intellectually childish" is intellectually childish.

If you have something substantive to offer, such as exactly whom you think my hard work ought to be helping or what you opine to be the purpose of government, bring it on. Insular instigation rather than coherent confrontation seems, IMHO, to the a recurring theme in the majority of your Interchange posts.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> I don't think the _ad homs_ bring any substance to the discussion. M8 has posited his opinion of the purpose of government. Stating that it is "intellectually childish" is intellectually childish.
> 
> If you have something substantive to offer, such as exactly whom you think my hard work ought to be helping or what you opine to be the purpose of government, bring it on. Insular instigation rather than coherent confrontation seems, IMHO, to the a recurring theme in the majority of your Interchange posts.


 I'm honoured that you've read them all. Could you please cite some examples from this majority, as well as a concise explanation of the difference between 'insular instigation' and 'coherent confrontation'?


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, that is not what I said. I said that the book supports the debt-free part of the thesis, in that being debt-free is achieveable - same with the Dave Ramsey reference.

If the book supported the whole thesis, then no thesis would need to be developed.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

I think Dave Ramsey is a little too dogmatic (though I still listen to him all the time because he is entertaining). Sometimes being debt free is not the best option, and when Dave is confronted with these situations he cites some kind of negative psychological effect that being in debt has on people.

For example, a caller will say "Dave, I can borrow $10,000 at 0% interest and invest it for a return of 11%, should I do it?" Dave will respond, "No, you should be debt free because you won't be able to sleep at night when you have payments to make." My response to that is that I sleep better at night when I'm getting a return of 11% and have more money in my pocket.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_...
> If you have something substantive to offer, such as exactly whom you think my hard work ought to be helping or what you opine to be the purpose of government, bring it on. Insular instigation rather than coherent confrontation seems, IMHO, to the a recurring theme in the majority of your Interchange posts...


That was well said.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, hate to disagree, but the book you cited as reference counters many of your premises. Tied to a local economy, owns vehicles, hard worker, thrifty in things like clothes....the average joe millionaire has very little in common with your ISS and would probably chuckle at the thought.

Look, most intelligent and successful people know the difference between "bad" debt and "good" debt and try to utilize that thought, i.e only go into debt if it makes you money. That is not a huge revelation. The person you are proposing is certainly a romantic figure, cutting a swath through world society. I am just maintaining your premise points do not hold up and even tend to contradict themselves to my experience (see my original post). YMMV.

P.S. IMO, _haoles_ should really be careful in their choice of Aloha shirts.

Warmest regards


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

One of my closest friends continually aspires to the 'ISS' lifestyle, but to my mind what never gets said (or understood) is the 'unknowables' and 'unpredictables', i.e. those events which will bring it all to a halt very quickly. Two examples would be (1) a sudden change of government, thereby losing a large piece of your assets, and (2) a sudden health problem. Most people think nothing will ever happen to them, so their bare-bones home economics are fine until something happens.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> One of my closest friends continually aspires to the 'ISS' lifestyle, but to my mind what never gets said (or understood) is the 'unknowables' and 'unpredictables', i.e. those events which will bring it all to a halt very quickly. Two examples would be (1) a sudden change of government, thereby losing a large piece of your assets, and (2) a sudden health problem. Most people think nothing will ever happen to them, so their bare-bones home economics are fine until something happens.


I think most of us aspire to it  I just know that outside of a lottery powerball, I am unlikely to attain it on the scale M8 has described. Financial freedom yes, striding the global scene jet set style endlessly? Not likely for me.

Warmest regards


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> One of my closest friends continually aspires to the 'ISS' lifestyle, but to my mind what never gets said (or understood) is the 'unknowables' and 'unpredictables', i.e. those events which will bring it all to a halt very quickly. Two examples would be (1) a sudden change of government, thereby losing a large piece of your assets, and (2) a sudden health problem. Most people think nothing will ever happen to them, so their bare-bones home economics are fine until something happens.


The above is true for any lifestyle. After all, we are but mere mortals.

Well said.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Certainly. You authored a number of threads ostensibly on the clothing style of certain famous persons. In these, you posted clothing photographs. By themselves and as synopses of the person's style these were interesting. In the majority of instances, however, I found your selection of quotations - unnecessary to the idea of clothing on a fashion forum - to be most carefully selected to incite flames. This they accomplished, not only with easily predictable regularity, but in the extreme. I venture that most members who previously considered Ford to be the Father of Mass Production now think of him primarily as a The Father of American anti-Semitism.
You, yourself, have answered when questioned in a recent thread here on the interchange about your opinion on a certain subject that your opinion wasn't germane and that your sole reason for the thread was to see the ensuing debate. This is completely from recollection as I remember not the thread but clearly my anger at your incitement.

The rest of your answer: 
*Insular incitement* - non-substantive writing from a prejudiced point-of-view designed solely to cause reaction
*coherent confrontation* - writing from solid, fact-filled expertise or opinion to counter your opponent's assertion or theory.

Finally: Your reply to me begs the question. Not only have you failed to explain your weak and unfounded 'intellectual childishness' remark, but you continue to have have failed at posting anything of any substance whatsoever. Merely questioning a reply to your statement is a most commmon forensic tactic used when substantive answer escapes the writer.

EDIT: Here's another from your most current:


> quote: Below is a beautiful address by the late Madalyn Murray Oâ€™Hair, as published at www.atheists.org. I think that it is especially pertinent for a bit of perspective in these sad days of religious fanaticism.


 I note with dismay that you flame with the "religious fanaticism" statement, yet studiously avoid opining. Islamic? Or Evangelical? What a difference an opinion would make.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> 
> You, yourself, have answered when questioned in a recent thread here on the interchange about your opinion on a certain subject that your opinion wasn't germane and that your sole reason for the thread was to see the ensuing debate.


Mr. Kabbaz:

First, remind me never to take the opposing viewpoint from you, you are a most powerful force in debate.

I noticed this of our gentleman also and first tried to start curtailing his ploy here:

Warmest regards


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lets try and keep this on topic.

Thanks,

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I remembered that. The lack of appropriate response to you was what kindled my displeasure. Thank you for remembering the link.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sadly I watched the degradation of this thread on Style Forum. My intent here was solely to return the thread to its topic by calling on the _ad hom_ attack. No hijaaking intended.

As far as your reply to mine, I agree with your stated governmental objectives as far as you went in elaborating on them. Regretfully, many today have taken the "common defense" concept to mean protecting people from themselves.

Back to your original post. The characteristics you cite: 
1] Is their numbered order that which you consider to be the order of importance? 
2] If not, can you so order them?
3] Are there characteristics born of only one example?
4] Are there characteristics born only of hope?

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

I'm a little baffled by the virtue of owning no marketable securities. If you want really portable wealth that doesn't come with the hassles of management, local regulation, illiquidity, etc., what better place to park a lot of money than a batch of well chosen mutual funds (or individual stocks, if you wish to interview and retain money managers)? Not to say that owning condos in Lisbon or timber lots in Georgia can't be lucrative, but is it always worth getting so wrapped into a single economy if independence really is your goal?


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

M8 - I am not getting involved in this again. my opinion of this is that there are lots of individuals that fit much of this discription, but by outlining the philosophy of this, and by accenting the government issue and the debt issue, it makes the whole concept more confusing. I also think that, from your post, it seems to suggest a level of aversion to debt and a level of dissasociation with governments that are higher that the reality.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Also, I work for a real estate management and land development company. Renting out houses is no easy living by any means.

Leaving the management to someone else and paying no attention yourself is a way to possibly ensure that your properties decrease in value. There is no guarantee that tenants will pay the rent or leave your premises in decent shape when they leave.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> 
> Also, I work for a real estate management and land development company. Renting out houses is no easy living by any means.
> 
> Leaving the management to someone else and paying no attention yourself is a way to possibly ensure that your properties decrease in value. There is no guarantee that tenants will pay the rent or leave your premises in decent shape when they leave.


Of course there is no guarantee. One always has to check on one's investments. If the property management company does not do a good job, they you fire them and find one that will do a good job. This is a simple example it is done all the time.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> 
> M8 - I am not getting involved in this again. my opinion of this is that there are lots of individuals that fit much of this discription, but by outlining the philosophy of this, and by accenting the government issue and the debt issue, it makes the whole concept more confusing. I also think that, from your post, it seems to suggest a level of aversion to debt and a level of dissasociation with governments that are higher tha[n] the reality.


Quite the case, with the exception of your last line. Think about it, one who is engaging in this solo, would be necessity want to minimize the risk. Debt elimination minimizes the risk, and debt minimization tildiy fits into the ISS definition since debt is a form of being owned by others.
M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Concordia_
> 
> I'm a little baffled by the virtue of owning no marketable securities. If you want really portable wealth that doesn't come with the hassles of management, local regulation, illiquidity, etc., what better place to park a lot of money than a batch of well chosen mutual funds (or individual stocks, if you wish to interview and retain money managers)? Not to say that owning condos in Lisbon or timber lots in Georgia can't be lucrative, but is it always worth getting so wrapped into a single economy if independence really is your goal?


Securities are anathema. Mainly because the ISS does not believe in investing in venues that he can not control. When one invests one's money in Enron, Global Crossing, etc. one has no say-so in how that company is managed, nor does one have transparency in how said companies are run. For all one may know, such investments simply go to executive bonus plans or to acquisitions and projects that do not payout. However, in the real estate example I provided, the ISS can either fire the property management company or evict the deadbeat renters. Control reamains with the investor.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_
> Sadly I watched the degradation of this thread on Style Forum. My intent here was solely to return the thread to its topic by calling on the _ad hom_ attack. No hijaaking intended.
> 
> As far as your reply to mine, I agree with your stated governmental objectives as far as you went in elaborating on them. Regretfully, many today have taken the "common defense" concept to mean protecting people from themselves.
> ...


Yes, it was frustrating at the beginning. However, there was very good dialogue later on, especially from *globbtrotter*, *tiger02*, and *Nantucket Red*.

Answering your post, again in point form:

1. They are not numbered in any order.
2. No, I would not attempt to sequence them in a priority, other than to say a niche is required with respect to the service or good offerred.
3. No these are born of multiple examples. However, not all ISS posess all of them.
4. Not born of hope. These are observed.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:
> Certainly. You authored a number of threads ostensibly on the clothing style of certain famous persons. In these, you posted clothing photographs. By themselves and as synopses of the person's style these were interesting. In the majority of instances, however, I found your selection of quotations - unnecessary to the idea of clothing on a fashion forum - to be most carefully selected to incite flames. This they accomplished, not only with easily predictable regularity, but in the extreme. I venture that most members who previously considered Ford to be the Father of Mass Production now think of him primarily as a The Father of American anti-Semitism.


 If you recall, my good sir, I wasn't the one who brought notice to his anti-Semitism, and was very disappointed when my thread was flamed to that effect. I'm sorry that you did not recognise the intended art of interspersing photographs with quotations. Certainly, I don't recall you throwing any rotten tomatoes during the many months I have been taking the great efforts to create such threads.



> quote:You, yourself, have answered when questioned in a recent thread here on the interchange about your opinion on a certain subject that your opinion wasn't germane and that your sole reason for the thread was to see the ensuing debate. This is completely from recollection as I remember not the thread but clearly my anger at your incitement.


 I have often encouraged (and subsequently participated in) debates, and I didn't realise that this was an undesirable activity. It would seem that the Interchange would effectually cease if debate was forbidden.



> quote:The rest of your answer:
> *Insular incitement* - non-substantive writing from a prejudiced point-of-view designed solely to cause reaction
> *coherent confrontation* - writing from solid, fact-filled expertise or opinion to counter your opponent's assertion or theory.


 You have obviously not read many of my 1400+ posts - or else chosen to ignore the countless facts, figures, graphs, tables, links and other materials that I consistently provide to augment my opinions. And yet such efforts are very rarely otherwise to be seen on the Interchange.



> quote:Finally: Your reply to me begs the queswhotion. Not only have you failed to explain your weak and unfounded 'intellectual childishness' remark, but you continue to have have failed at posting anything of any substance whatsoever. Merely questioning a reply to your statement is a most commmon forensic tactic used when substantive answer escapes the writer.


 Forgive my initial short reply, but I must confess that I was rather shocked at your seemingly pent-up attack.

With regards to the intellectual childishness comment, which in context is directed at the hypothetical, nation-less sort of person M8 describes, I stand by it one-hundred per cent. It is intellectually childish to only support the bare minimum of governmental services (ie only military and courts) merely because those are the only services from which one is perceived to directly benefit. Greed is not in and of itself bad, unless it compels one to embrace a philosophy which in turn rejects all moral obligations to one's fellow citizens. Such a person has become intellectually childish, since they have regressed to a child-like state of egoism and selfishness.



> quote:EDIT: Here's another from your most current:
> 
> 
> > quote: Below is a beautiful address by the late Madalyn Murray Oâ€™Hair, as published at www.atheists.org. I think that it is especially pertinent for a bit of perspective in these sad days of religious fanaticism.
> ...


 I was referring especially to Islam, and the crisis in Iran - which in turn seems to be largely fuelled by religious extremism. But, as you know, religious extremism isn't limited to Islam, and I certainly don't mind if the thread inspires people to reflect on religious fanaticism in general. Flaming is subjective, but I thought I titled the thread well enough so that those who might become emotionally overcome by such topics would be dissuaded from having to view anti-religious statements (Which is why I opted not to entitle the thread 'Islamic fanaticism' or something similar).

I have nothing but respect for you, Mr Kabbaz, and am saddened that you have suddenly - after all this time - adopted this strange new tenor with me. Perhaps I have offended you in some way. If so, please contact me so that we can make amends.

Most Sincerely Yours,

Philip.


----------



## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> However, in the real estate example I provided, the ISS can either fire the property management company or evict the deadbeat renters. Control reamains with the investor.


This is much easier said than done, which is another problem I have with the whole ISS thing - it just seems to oversimplify everything to a degree which is unrealistic. Evicting deadbeat renters can be one of the most frustrating experiences that a landlord can ever have and control often does not remain with the investor. Which, might after all be a reason why the so-called ISS loathes the government, but again, I think you are just picking arbitrary characteristics, which anybody can do about anything.

Example:

The Askandean Saville-Row Tradian (also known as the ASRT) is a term I have recently coined.

Askandean Saville-Row Tradian: An individual who experiences sleeplessness at night because of an overall confusion about whether to adopt the style of those commonly referred to on certain internet fora as trads, or the traditional sytles of Saville Row. Such individuals have taken advantage of information gleaned about a tradiational American style that descends from "upper crust" old money American families from the Northeast, but still retain an unshakeable draw to class English style.

Here are some of the characteristics that I am seeing of others I have talked to who I put in the category of Askandean Saville-Row Tradian:

1. They own several pairs of Alden cordovan oxfords.

2. They secretly harbor a desire to have a suit tailored by Anderson and Sheppard.

3. While they often wear buttondown collars, at the bottom of their dresser drawer they have a RLPL Keaton collar shirt stashed away.

4. They like their girlfriends to look like a 50s moviestar.

5. They wear sack suits to work, but wear suits with severe waist compression when out with their friends.

I could go on, but I hope everyone gets the point.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> Securities are anathema. Mainly because the ISS does not believe in investing in venues that he can not control. When one invests one's money in Enron, Global Crossing, etc. one has no say-so in how that company is managed, nor does one have transparency in how said companies are run. For all one may know, such investments simply go to executive bonus plans or to acquisitions and projects that do not payout. However, in the real estate example I provided, the ISS can either fire the property management company or evict the deadbeat renters. Control reamains with the investor.


Specious. One never truly controls the "venue". Ask anyone that has lost investment property when a regime change has decided to nationalize things. This mythical ISS person is by defintion invested in multiple countries, therefore has multiple instance of this risk and similar ones, i.e. war, natural disaster, etc. Granted this doesn't happen daily, but Enron type examples are also, contrary to popular media and the anti-capitalists, exceedingly rare. Now to pre-empt you, you might counter with something about insurance for these imaginary properties, I would counter with using options to hedge (insure) your securities.

Further, towards another post of yours on this thread, total elimination of debt would no doubt *increase* risk at times, just as in standard portfolio theory, adding a risker security can lower total portfolio risk.

Warmest regards


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Odoreater*, you are just a party-pooper . Nothing in life is easy.

Life is a beeotch. If she were easy she would be a slut.

Becoming an ISS is not easy, nor is being a landlord, even through proxy. However, if one has a negative attitude on the possible, then one will never succeed. I hope this is not a characteristic of you, but that you are just challenging the premise, unless of course Eeyore was your favoring character when reading Winnie the Pooh 

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No argument on what you have posted.

My overiding premise with regards to investments, is that the more control you have, the better. That is the ethos of the ISS. Publicly traded securities do not offer this control, nor are they transparent.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that it is impossible for someone to attain the characteristics you mentioned. I think that it is quite possible and that a person who has those characteristics might be very happy with his life. The only point I am trying to make is that it is just a conglomeration of characteristics that you have noticed in some people, but they seem pretty arbitrary to me. I guess what I'm trying to say is, and I can't think of a nicer way to say this, so don't think me rude, but: so what?


PS: Personally I have no desire to become an ISS. Being in debt doesn't bother me, I'm not a big fan of traveling abroad, I have no desire to run my own business, and I'm still pretty happy with my life.


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what I actually mean is that, the majority of the people I know who fit very closely or exactly to this concept are, in fact, basically dept free, but I don't think that any of them acually thought it through that way - it isn't a philosophy to them.

about the government - here is a similar issue. I think that I fit what you are talking about, in many ways, and I have perhaps fit it more in the past. I hold 3 passports. my parents were each born in differnt countries, my wife's were each born in two different countries. I have lived in 5 countries. I have no problem in shifting from one country to another, depending on factors such as legal inviroment, cost and quality of air connections, taxation levels and real estate costs. all that said - I value the relationship that I have with the states that issued me passports, I value some of the services that the state provides me, more for my dependents than for myself.

more importantly I think that the low intensity relationship you discribe with governments can only be maintained for a short part of life - maybe for 20 years or so of a career, with a period of preperation that is more dependent on governments, and a period of "retirement" that is more dependent on governments.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
I think the debt-free part does happen by accident for some. For others I say it was by design.

Interesting on the aging issue. I guess I'll see when I get there. I hope I have enough sleeping money by then.

M8

I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe*


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_...
> PS: Personally I have no desire to become an ISS. Being in debt doesn't bother me, I'm not a big fan of traveling abroad, I have no desire to run my own business, and I'm still pretty happy with my life.


Okay, it's not for everybody, and no one is suggesting that it is, but it is an observation that I have noticed over the last several years, and I see more of these types with every destination/trip.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

This seems very similar to the PT movement that was begun by WG Hill and also contain elements of the philosophy espoused by JJ Luna. Luna has alot more actionable details as his work was done more recently.

The ISS/private person philosophy is certainly attainable, but much of what we accept as conveniences of modern life. It is most easily attained by the self employed, but certainly partially attainable by salaried employers.

Zero debt-easily doable if one choses. Rent or live in a home owned by a shell corporation. Own a car outright that is registered elsewhere. Better than credit cards-prepaid charge cards.


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

bty - I am, have pretty much always been, dept free. and I guess that many of the people I know in the expat community are, too. but I don't think that that is a philosophy, so much.

anyway, I am off to put my son to bed, good night.*


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by maxnharry_
> 
> This seems very similar to the PT movement that was begun by WG Hill and also contain elements of the philosophy espoused by JJ Luna. Luna has alot more actionable details as his work was done more recently.
> 
> ...


You are very correct. The only issue I had with the PT movement was that there was a sleaze element to it, i.e, looked like a cover for illegal tax evasion. Other than that, I think the PT lifelstyle is a valid one. I have run into several PT types. Most that I have met that are Americans have expatriated themselves.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:I have nothing but respect for you, Mr Kabbaz, and am saddened that you have suddenly - after all this time - adopted this strange new tenor with me. Perhaps I have offended you in some way. If so, please contact me so that we can make amends.


 No, Philip, I did not mean to offend you and please accept my apologiies if I did. I have a profound respect for the obviously serious though you put into the threads you start. Unique, always. Thought provoking, usually. That said, I have noticed of late the growth of a certain sort of mysteriousness in your threads and posts, to the effect of: Let me throw down this hot potato and see what comes of it. The Ford thread was the first to become paramount in my mind because many I respect and have become friendly with over the years were highly offended.

When you posted if intellectual childishness _sans_ any supporting thought whatsoever, I thought you were trying to incite.



> quote:You have obviously not read many of my 1400+ posts - or else chosen to ignore the countless facts, figures, graphs, tables, links and other materials that I consistently provide to augment my opinions. And yet such efforts are very rarely otherwise to be seen on the Interchange.


 Yes, I have probably read all of them and you are correct.



> quote:With regards to the intellectual childishness comment, which in context is directed at the hypothetical, nation-less sort of person M8 describes, I stand by it one-hundred per cent. It is intellectually childish to only support the bare minimum of governmental services (ie only military and courts) merely because those are the only services from which one is perceived to directly benefit. Greed is not in and of itself bad, unless it compels one to embrace a philosophy which in turn rejects all moral obligations to one's fellow citizens. Such a person has become intellectually childish, since they have regressed to a child-like state of egoism and selfishness.


 Here we disagree. I can state with certainty that M8's person is neither hypothetical or fictional for I have and have had some of what he terms "ISS" as clients.
Additionally, I believe that you confuse "moral obligations to one's fellow citizens" with "governmental obligations to its citizens". I consider myself to have great moral obligations to my fellow citizens and believe that I discharge them well without any influence by a government. As soon as government mandates performance of moral obligations, that requires tax funding and suddenly 70% of that whch I could use to aid my fellows disappears into the bureaucratic maw. On a good day, 30% may make it through ... of which perhaps a smidgen will go towards need and the bulk towards perceived need such as toilet brushes ... for people without indoor plumbing.

Again, my apologies for any perceived offense towards you. Let us carry forward as friends with the topic at hand.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_...P.S. IMO, _haoles_ should really be careful in their choice of Aloha shirts...


I just saw this. Watch yourself! I am not a _haolie_, nor should you use such terms on this site. You can check the SE Asia posted link for my ethnic background. Not that it should matter to you or anyone else.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_...With regards to the intellectual childishness comment, which in context is directed at the hypothetical, nation-less sort of person M8 describes, I stand by it one-hundred per cent. It is intellectually childish to only support the bare minimum of governmental services (ie only military and courts) merely because those are the only services from which one is perceived to directly benefit. Greed is not in and of itself bad, unless it compels one to embrace a philosophy which in turn rejects all moral obligations to one's fellow citizens. Such a person has become intellectually childish, since they have regressed to a child-like state of egoism and selfishness...


This is a typical labelling tactic of the uber/ultra Left.

So what I would like to ask you is what YOU are doing to help your fellow man in this world, other than the standard cookie-cutter stuff like paying taxes, UNICEF, etc. Are you out there in the world making a difference?

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

This is absolutely, without question, the dumbest thread _ever _on AAAC.

------------------


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you claim to be a happa. Same advice goes.

Edit: For the interested reader. "Haole" is the Hawaiian term that is a generic catch-all for mainland caucasians. It is not a derogatory in common usage. "Happa haole" literally means "half haole" or someone with parents that are asian and caucasian. My children will be happas. Again, in common usage it is descriptive, not derogatory.


----------



## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> I am sorry, but I really think the ISS concept is largely the results of someone's wishful thinking. I could well be wrong and await correction.


I'm presuming this an accident but you actually seem to have got one right. I'll correct you when it is necessary.

Don't bother responding. I already know what you are going to say.

------------------


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That time and space will now end?


----------



## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Hey! You said something original!

Don't trick me like that again.

------------------


----------



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz_


Thank-you for your reply. I think that we may be at cross-purposes. Often, when I post about taxation topics, it is in response to what I perceive are quasi-anarchist views - the violation of the social contract by the individual. But I am against the sort of plainly penal taxation you're describing. That level of tax is what I would consider to be the other extreme - a violation of the social contract by the government. If the Interchange was filled with people advocating such taxation schemes, I would be arguing passioniately against them. Here, however, the constant tunes are more along the lines of taxation is theft, and so unfortunately I am compelled to argue from the other direction. Since I am vastly outnumbered in this regard, the sheer frequency and 'volume' of my posts may seem to give a distorted image of my views. In the case of the ISS, I've only just seen M8's subsequent post in which he agrees that highways and some welfare programmes are also justifiable. I hope this somewhat clarifies.


----------



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Perhaps you ought to click the link and notice my reply to you, which was a mere two hours after your question. I've not noticed any follow-up from you, so I rationally supposed that my answer was satisfactory.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haole is a deragotary term. It is a racial epithet against Anglo-Saxons. Don't try and BS those of us who have been there, or who have frequented relatives who live there.

Complaint has been sent to the mods.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by gmac_
> 
> This is absolutely, without question, the dumbest thread _ever _on AAAC.
> 
> ------------------


Do you have something to contribute to the subject, or is this a drive-by?

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Been there? My wife was only born and raised there. I have lived there. Complain away. As I am a haole myself, I do not think you'll get much traction. Why not defend your thesis some more? Give up?

Edit: This from the guy telling me of my arrogance due to being agnostic? That I desire to be master of the universe and control others due being agnostic? Give me a big hairy break. Further, it encompasses more than just those descended from the Angles and the Saxons. At least get it right.


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't fret, M8. GMAC is famous for his fly-byes. A claim of "dumb" from him is actually a compliment. His intellectual bankruptedness is exceeded only by the financial woes of his namesake.

Now, if he should begin agreeing with you ... it would be time to worry.

*https://www.CustomShirt1.com

Kabbaz-Kelly & Sons Fine Custom Clothiers
* Bespoke Shirts & Furnishings * Zimmerli Swiss Underwear **
* Alex Begg Cashmere * Pantherella Socks **​


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> Been there? My wife was only born and raised there. I have lived there. Complain away. As I am a haole myself, I do not think you'll get much traction. Why not defend your thesis some more? Give up?
> 
> Edit: This from the guy telling me of my arrogance due to being agnostic? That I desire to be master of the universe and control others due being agnostic? Give me a big hairy break. Further, it encompasses more than just those descended from the Angles and the Saxons. At least get it right.


Wayfarer. I don't particularly care about your personal situation concerning Hawaii. If you want to call yourself a Haole, then go ahead.

The premise of this topic on the ISS has been well defended. In fact I was invited by others to post the subject here at AAAC.

You have earned yourself "ingored" status, and will be responded to you no furhter. I turn my back to you.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## malinda (Aug 25, 2002)

*Gentlemen: *

I have been monitoring this thread and remain hopeful that it will remain calm and gentlemanly on its very interesting topic. I am posting to rule on a dispute.

Two members, Wayfarer and M8, have had a bit of a disagreement over the use of a foreign word, Haole. For all of our benefits, here is the definition:


> quote:Haole, in the Hawaiian language, means "foreign" or "foreigner"; it can be used in reference to people, plants, and animals. It is also used in Hawaiian Pidgin to mean "white" or "Caucasian."
> 
> In Hawaiian pidgin, local is usually considered the opposite of haole. Local is an omnibus term for any non-white raised in Hawai#699;i, encompassing Hawaiians, part-Hawaiians, Japanese, Japanese-Hawaiians, Chinese, Chinese-Hawaiians, etc. The antonymy reflects a long history of race and class conflict in the Hawaiian islands, in which the upper class (plantation and business owners, professionals) tended to be haole and the working class was local. It can be a highly charged word and can be used descriptively or derisively.
> 
> ...


I hope that you two now understand that you can both be correct and you can both be wrong. M8: I do not think that Wayfarer meant to be derisive. Wayfarer: You can now see the reason for M8's upset.

It is not often that I am positioned to rule on the use/misuse of foreign words. In light of this clarification, please make up and continue the thread without animosity.

*GMAC:* I have noted your insulting post. Exercise control.

*Malinda*


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Thank you Malinda.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Funny, it was *your personal situation* to Hawaii that you referenced as a plea to authority. Can you not see your own logical inconsistency? I am happy you are now ignorning me, as an avowed agnostic, I can only say, "Thank god".

Malinda: Thank you for not responding to the knee jerk in like kind. Your research pretty much summed things up very nicely and was very King Solomon-esque.

Warmest regards


----------



## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Wonderful topic in that it provokes such different reactions in different readers.

My reaction was different... My though was "How miserable"

Note that is a reaction to inserting myself into the scenario. It would take a particular mindset to be happy.

I have two favorite times of the day - 
First: waking up, shoving 11.5 pounds of spaniel off my neck and joining her to wake my daughter via the 'puppy attack' methodology, giving Jill a kiss on the cheek and then driving kiddo to school.

Second: Checking on child, giving her a final kiss goodnight, kissing Jill goodnight and the satisfying plunk of 11.5 pounds of Spaniel landing on my neck for a good night's rest.

The appeal of the lifestyle you describe would depend entirely on what hings in life motivate and satisfy a person.

Interesting food for thought.

www.carlofranco.com
Handmade Seven Fold Ties


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by CarloFranco_
> 
> Wonderful topic in that it provokes such different reactions in different readers.
> 
> ...


Nothing in your post conflicts with being an ISS. One does not have to travel away from the pleasures you describe in order to be self-sovereign.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

I don't understand what everyone's getting so worked up about. An ISS--maybe not in all the specifics--seems like the natural extension of a globalized knowledge based economy. If you rely on infrastructure for your business, you're going to use debt judiciously and need more local government support. Thousands of other little details will lead to derivations off of the base list M8 posted. The fact remains that ISSes, regardless of their attitude towards governments or charity or your dog (personally, I think I'd probably like your dog a lot Chuck ) drive the global economy that's going to integrate niches that never before would have seen the light of day.

Tom

PS M8--PM sent over on SF.

--------------------
Death is...whimsical...today


----------



## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

You have pretty much described me. Differences are that I have a car and my "international network" sort of evaporated when I transitioned careers 10 to 15 years ago.

I will take issue with the "leisure time" thing. I think people like us run scared all the time and, relying on nothing to fall back on but ourselves and what we have created, never feel safe enough to really kick back and relax. We're a breed apart, kind of like hunted animals --part predator, part prey -- as opposed to the mor domesticated types of critters found in big organizations. I live much below my means in a part of town where everyone lives well beyond not only their means but their capabilities, as far as I can tell! People I know who work for governments and big organizations plan their leisure time; I don't. No matter how much I have, I can't forget what it was like "before." I know a couple of other people who fit into this category you have defined and who, like me, got there with earned, after tax income. They feel the same as me about running scared.

The relationship to government is a big factor. I need the government to maintain the general order and economic stability, though if they didn't I could probably still make a buck. But the world would be a horrible place. I rely on myself for personal protection, health care, whatever. I spend a lot more than anyone I know on all kinds of insurance. Everyone else seems to think of insurance as a "benefit," to me it is a cost of living the way I do. If something bad happens to me, I still do not want to have to go to government. I guess my relationship with government differs from other's in that while we all benefit from government, I never have and hopefully never will, receive direct, personal benefit from government. Don't want it. It's a matter of principle. The only salary I've ever had that came from somewhere other than a company I owned was from the Army. I felt as if I owed my country the service, and I took the pay because this screwed up country is the best place in space and time for people like me.

Likewise, I shy away from tax sheltering deductions. Most of the time when the government "gives" you something, it has a freedom cost. Most all retirement plans like SAR's SEP's IRA's, as well as 1031 Real Estate Exchanges, all of which are touted as big deal benefits, are bad deals in my opinion. By setting aside income in that manner, all you do is tie up operating money -- you will still have to pay the tax when you take it out, and who knows what the rate will be then? I file clean returns and take as few deductions as possible. Paying off the government is one of the "costs of doing business." Don't get me wrong, I take legitimate business deductions, but I'll give up a little cash to keep freedom and flexibility. After taxes, I'm free to do what I like with what I have left in savings. I have the ability to possess cash wealth without disposing of it (like blowing it on "leisure time" activities), but I do use it. For example, money that might have been locked up in IRA's allowed me to move fast on a property and buy a house for 60% of its appraised value for cash. It rents for 12% of what I paid for it each year, I made 40% on the money up front on the purchase, and its value goes up each year. When I sell it, I'll pay capital gains on the increase in value. If that cash had been in an approved plan, I would be looking at a marginal rate of return until I was old enough to take it out, and then it still would have been taxable! And, should I sell the house, I'll pay the capital gains instead of falling into the trap of deferring the taxes through a 1031 which would compel me to reinvest the money in similar property within a time frame which might force a stupid, hasty investment. My point is that every break the government "gives" you has a freedom and flexibility cost. And I get ahead through freedom and flexibility.

Almost every significant business move I have made throughout my life has violated conventional wisdom and has, withoug breaking any laws mind you, been against the best practical advice of my attorneys and accountants.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

*Liberty Ship*,

Thanks for sharing that with us. You are correct about the "scare" thing. A lot of us don't know where our next meal is coming from. I finally realized that Ford and GM don't really know if they are going to sell another car either. We just feel it more, because we are on the micro-scale and on the front line. However, now after twelve years of doing this, I am comfortable with the business model. After all no business, large or small really knows where its next meal is coming from either.

As for the leisure time. I can schedule mine in accordance with my calendar of gigs. Often I will couple the leisure time with a gig that takes me to an interesting area. As an example, the trips I wrote about on my Southeast Asia blog. But you are correct, in that if I have a profitable gig that conflicts with a planned leisure activity, I am taking the gig.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> I don't understand what everyone's getting so worked up about. An ISS--maybe not in all the specifics--seems like the natural extension of a globalized knowledge based economy. If you rely on infrastructure for your business, you're going to use debt judiciously and need more local government support. Thousands of other little details will lead to derivations off of the base list M8 posted. The fact remains that ISSes, regardless of their attitude towards governments or charity or your dog (personally, I think I'd probably like your dog a lot Chuck ) drive the global economy that's going to integrate niches that never before would have seen the light of day.
> 
> ...


I think this is a fair analysis. I doubt anyone fits all 16 criteria exactly, but the 16, taken as a whole, paint a picture. The debt thing is interesting. I differentiate between personal and business debt. Personal debt is, to me, bad. Business debt can be smart and, when over 100% secured by equity, is not really a personal risk to you. Business debt is leverage, it's capitalism and facilitates growth; personal debt is servitude. If you're going to be an operator, you have to learn to wear two hats and know where the line is.

One element of our current economy where I see people try to step in to the world we are talking about has to do with franchises. "Open a XXXXX and be your own boss." A seductive argument to someone locked in a cube or recently laid off. I have talked to people who have looked into these options. The people offering the franchise, of course want cash and you have to have start up money. Their solution to how to get this money is inevitably, "get a home equity loan." Big mistake, in my opinion. Co-mingling right off the bat, and making you an indentured servant to your own business. Great for the franchise seller, bad for you. The first thing an ISS has to know how to do is creat wealth out of nothing. Broker a deal and take a spread, or get some kind of finder's fee, or something but never go into personal debt for business ends. And don't go into personal debt for consumables or for pleasure. Don't go into personal debt at all, and if you must, _never_ get upside down. I have seen a lot of people who "owned" homes or condos have to write personal checks at closing to get out from under big payments.

Regarding taxes, government, and paying back to society, I pay taxes under protest. They are mostly a confiscatory transfer of my production to others. My production takes my time. Hours of my life. It is like taking years of my life and giving it to someone else. The way I operate, when I make money, so do others. No one has ever lost money working with me and people who have hitched their wagon to mine have done better than they ever could have without me, and they earn it and I'm damned generous with those people. That's how I "pay back." I pay back on merit.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

More wise words *Liberty Ship*. Excellent!

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

LS-
This puts your libertarian arguments in other threads into a more interesting context, thanks. Care to talk a little bit about what you do? I'm getting ready to join the non-military workforce and am looking for input from everywhere. You can email me through AAAC profile if you'd prefer.

Tom

--------------------
Death is...whimsical...today


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

I too am a Libertarian. Glad to know there are others here.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Lord Foppington (Feb 1, 2005)

"5. They appear to have transcended the need for government, and look upon government with disdain. Hence they regard themselves as Libertarian self-sovereigns."

I think it's great to have as few financial entanglements and debts as possible. But I don't get the "transcended the need for government" part.

Are you arguing that ideally such people implicitly demonstrate that government is unnecessary for _everybody_? That would be anarchism, I suppose.

Or just unnecessary for themselves? So the argument would be yes, government is necessary, but not for me. But if it's really _necessary_, doesn't this signify your reliance on it? I know in later posts there's some backtracking on this point, but not enough, I think.

If anarchy is the alternative, it doesn't require much imagination to multiply instances of our dependence on a well-administered collectivity (or at least as well-administered as we citizens can make it). When I depend in my daily dealings on people who are literate, whether they work for me or not, I implicitly depend on government education for all. When I draw breath and drink water, I implicitly depend on government regulations that prevent corporations from dumping toxins into my environment. This not to mention government sponsorship of police, courts, transportation, fire protection, medical standards, public safety, "homeland security," shields against fraud of innumerable kinds, and so on and on and on.

In short I believe in being a citizen of a society. Not an quasi-independent social atom who manages to capitalize, while "looking with disdain," on the social interdependencies and institutions of civil society and government that make social life possible.

I guess I'm just plain puzzled by libertarianism.

Stap my vitals!


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Lord Foppington_
> 
> "5. They appear to have transcended the need for government, and look upon government with disdain. Hence they regard themselves as Libertarian self-sovereigns."
> 
> ...Are you arguing that ideally such people implicitly demonstrate that government is unnecessary for _everybody_? That would be anarchism, I suppose...


Libertarianism does not advocate anarchy. For a decent description see the link on the Cato Institute https://www.cato.org/

I will make a separate post, real-life story on why so many of us regard the gooberment with disdain.

Thanks for asking.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

My 1st Vignette with the Gooberment

It's 1994 and I have just started my business. Back then my business was not always technical in nature. I was also a broker/finder. My client, a company in oilfield services, wanted to establish a beach head in Argentina to work with new oil companies in Argentina since the old national oil company broke off into several private companies. My client wanted me to set up a trade mission to expose them to the new markets in Argentina.

My first impulse was to contact the commercial officers working at the US embassy. I acted on the impulse. Here's what the conversation went like, or similar. The characters in the dialog are me, M8, and the Foreign Commerical Officer, FCO. I'll be brief and to the point.

M8: I have a client that would like me to organize a trade mission for them to Argentina. I would like to know if you have on record, the various new company CEO/COO names so that I may contact them, and arrange for appointments.

FCO: Tell me about your business.

M8: It is a 1-man business, I am providing this service to the client as a broker/finder.

FCO: <chuckling> We are not in the habit of helping 1-man businesses. I can do nothing for you.

M8: Do you help large companies?

FCO: Of course. They are established, etc. No offense, but 1-man businesses are usually fly-by-night operations, and besides who ever heard of 1-man international business unless some shady type deals are being made. Sorry, but good luck.

_(I was on my own my to set up and conduct the trade mission, which I did, and continued to do business down there for several years.__ Five years later I get a phone call from the Foreign Commercial Office from the U.S. emabassy in Argentina. Here's how it went.)
_
FCO: Mr. M8 my name is Mr. FCO. We are sponsoring a trade mission for several US companies that would like to do business in Argentina. One of our sources indicated that you have a lot of business connections in Buenos Aires, and we would like to know if you would be willing to provide us with some contact assistance.

M8: Absolutely not. I called you folks about five years ago asking for contact assistance and you essentially told me to bugger off. In fact you were rude.

FCO: Well I wasn't here five years ago, so sorry about that, but it wasn't me.

M8: No it wasn't you, but it was your office.

FCO: Well are you willing to assist us.

M8: Have you changed your policy with regards to helping 1-man businesses like mine?

FCO: I'm not sure what the policy is, but I would say that economy of scales dictate that we help the larger companies since they provide jobs back home.

M8: What about my "job".

FCO: Well you evidently don't need our services. Besides, you are an individual just getting rich on your own, we are helping out the little guy, indirectly, through their companies by sustaining or creating jobs.

M8: <click>

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Here's a more recent vignette with the Gooberment.

This time the players are M8, Army Corps of Engineers (COE), and OFS. OFS is a large oil field services company. They are well known, you have all heard of them.

M8: I am interested in looking at post-war reconstruction efforts in Iraq with respect to the oil industry.

COE: What do you do?

M8: (I explain this)

COE: How big is your company?

M8: 1-man.

COE: Hahahahaha! You must be joking. Look here's a number to call at the Pentagon.

M8: (I call and get a recording. I get sent a form to fill out, and never hear back).

_(More than a year later...)_

OFS: Mr. M8 we understand from some of our mutual clients that you are the techncial expert in blank technology, and we would like to retain you to help us with _Operation Restore Iraqi Oil_.

M8: Who gave you my name? Was it the COE? I contacted them over a year ago and never heard from them.

OFS: No, one of our contacts with ExxonMobil gave us your name.

M8: I see. Then you should know that I only contract directly with the end user, so if you want to give me a COE name, then I will gladly discuss it with them.

OFS: No, they would want you to subcontract to us. We have a lock on the contract.

M8: What value do you add to the contract?

OFS: In your case, none really, other than facilitating things for the COE, since they wouldn't have to manage a separate contract.

M8: What would your mark-up be on my billing rate.

OFS: About 25%.

M8: So you get 25% for doing nothing?

OFS: Well, that's the way game is played. What do you care as long as your day rate is met?

M8: Sorry, not interested. My business philosphy is *high class whores don't need pimps* <click>.

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

M8, no offense, but I don't really see anything inappropriate about the way the government acted with you in either one of those cases. You are basically complaining that the government is in the business of using its scarce resources to help companies that are in turn going to help the most people back home, instead of just helping one person. I consider myself a libertarian as well, for the most part, but I don't really see where your complaint is.

Maybe you feel good that you withheld your contacts from the government, but I have a funny feeling that the government doesn't really need you.


----------



## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Well, you've pretty much described the 'ideal' situation for most of us, but cold hard reality says that 99.9999...% of us will never escape mortages or some debt, will always work for someone else, and will never have much luck with the right portfolio mix. Bully for those who get it right, but don't bust yer a** too hard chasing dreams. (Yes, I am a dead anchor of a personality.)


The first step is admitting it. 


> quote:The people you've described are somewhat too self-centred for my tastes, I certainly would never socialize with someone like that.


 I'm sure you don't mean this in as broad a stroke as you say it here. Or I guess I'm just not seeing the "self-centered-ness".



> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> I am not saying such individuals might not exist. What I am saying is that I find it very difficult to believe there are more than a handful that exist and most of those are trust fund babies. I mean zero debt (per #2) yet they are purchasing rental properties (per #16)?
> 
> I am sorry, but I really think the ISS concept is largely the results of someone's wishful thinking. I could well be wrong and await correction.


Perhaps I need to go back and read M8's original description. But what he describes doesn't seem that unrealistic to me at all. Were I still in my former career, it could've been an easily attainable career path.

Start at 22, just out of college, with a big consuting firm. Learn EVERYTHING you possibly can about your chosen area of expertise (PeopleSoft, in my case), while living expense free in apartments / hotels paid for by the company. Food and rental cars are provided as well.

5 years later, if you did your homework, and maintained all your contacts, you could easily go "independent" as a consultant for $100/hr. EASILY. Since expenses are still paid by the client, this equates to approx $1mil you could sock away over the next 5 years.

5 years later, you should've attained enough expertise to bump your rate to $200/hr.

10 years later, at the age of 42, you could've saved another 4 million. This savings of $5million is exclusive of interest income, equity growth or rental incomes. This is cash under the mattress money.

You can play with these figures however you wish, moving them up or down based on any number of variables including taxes, investments, consulting rates, etc. But the point is, a good debt-free lifestyle can be attained and maintained for just about anyone who chooses that particular lifestyle.

It's probably not something that I would find attractive today. But if I'd known 20 years ago what I know today, I definitely would be doing EXACTLY that.

I'm too much of a flag-waver to ever renounce my citizenship, but I do understand why some would be willing to chuck the mainland US life for a relatively tax-free "financial haven" of the islands or elsewhere, as a "base".


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> M8, no offense, but I don't really see anything inappropriate about the way the government acted with you in either one of those cases. You are basically complaining that the government is in the business of using its scarce resources to help companies that are in turn going to help the most people back home, instead of just helping one person. I consider myself a libertarian as well, for the most part, but I don't really see where your complaint is.
> 
> Maybe you feel good that you withheld your contacts from the government, but I have a funny feeling that the government doesn't really need you.


Seems to me you failed to appreciate that the government is here to serve it's citizenry - that includes me. That's what we pay them for. In the first vignette, I was representing a US company that does indeed provide jobs back home. The arrogant Gooberment stance was not to provide information to a 1-man business, but to laugh it off as a shady 1-man business. OTOH, when they needed contacts to promote their own trade mission five years later, they expected me to provide them with data for free. Their "limited resource" excuse is nonsense. These guys just like to hobnob with big companies so that they can feel important, and have a cocktail parties at the embassy, or at the Jockey Club (posh club in Buenos Aires).

In the second vignette. It is clear that doing business in Iraq, was to be done only through their selected vendor. A vendor not selected via competitive bidding, and who in the case of my specific technical service, did not have that technical service in their inventory - which is why they came to me later. Why should they get a 25% markup for skills that they do not bring to the table? Simply because Dick Cheney is their friend?

As for the Gooberment not needing me. You are probably correct, though they do call me often for information. You would be surprised. However, just think, if they didn't need anybody, then they would be minimalist in nature, instead of being the growth industry that they are due to the proclivities of both the Republican and Democrat parties.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jill_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said. Exactly the case with many I have met who are into enterprise data systems or data warehouse consulting.

I have maintained US residency and have avoided the tax "management" temptations. To do otherwise brings unacceptable risks.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

BTW, some of the responses and comments I get regarding the subject of ISS simply validate what I have thought all along.

The concept of the _American Rugged Individual_ is but a mere myth.

In fact I would say that the American Rugged Individual is actually hated by a society that prefers to hide in the anonymity of _collectivism_, which can masquerade itself in a variety of government models such as Socialism, Communism, Fascism, Big Obtrusive Gooberment, etc.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> The concept of the _American Rugged Individual_ is but a mere myth.


Oh, I don't know, my guess is he's just not spending much time posting on internet fora, with some exceptions. He is also outstanding, which often generates criticism.

--------------------
Death is...whimsical...today


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Har-har  on the internet thingy. You guys will be rid of me as of this upcoming Friday for 4-6 weeks. No weeping now please 

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> Har-har  on the internet thingy. You guys will be rid of me as of this upcoming Friday for 4-6 weeks. No weeping now please



Hey man, I'm here too []

--------------------
Death is...whimsical...today


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jill_
> 
> 5 years later, if you did your homework, and maintained all your contacts, you could easily go "independent" as a consultant for $100/hr. EASILY. Since expenses are still paid by the client, this equates to approx $1mil you could sock away over the next 5 years.


Okay, I very much regret anytime I inject reality to these threads lately, but let us examine this statement. I will go with your premise all, and I mean ALL expenses are paid by the client, 100% of your housing, food, medical, even clothing and entertainment, just to prove how false this statement is.

$100 per hour, sure seems like alot, doesn't it? I know at one time I thought it did. Let us inject some reality into this now. I will be *overly generous* in assumptions, again, just to demonstrate reality here.

Consulting at $100.00 / hour for 60 hours a week. Four weeks (unpaid of course as you are a consultant) of off time for the year. That is 48 weeks x 60 hours x $100.00 or $288, 000.00. Now, you would think multiply that by five years and you have over $1 million, right? I would like to inject one word here: taxes. Again, let us be generous and only deduct 30% from the total to cover all taxes, Fed, State, local, sales, FICA, SS, etc. So $288, 000.00 x .7 = $201, 000. Over five years, a tad over $1 million.

Now, does anyone think that this scenario is realistic? You need 100% of *all income earned* put in the bank, at 60 hours for week, non-stop for five years (and anyone that has done consulting knows, this is a very generous five year average), at my underestimated tax rate, with 100% of *all living expenses* paid for by someone other than yourself.

I am sorry to be the wet sock.

Warmest regards

P.S. I just want to re-state, I am not arguing against the concept of attaining financial independence, I think most that frequent this board are probably on the road to it. I am demurring at the specific set of criteria in the OP, as I have pointed out in several posts. I see others are now joining me, specifically in regards to financing business ventures vs. being debt free.


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jill_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My suspicion is that 'ISS' people are basically consultants, that breed of human for which a special circle of hell has been reserved. I doubt very much that there are any ISS blacksmiths out there, ranging across the globe, leveraging modern communications technology to achieve new levels of synergy by brokering win-win deals with...


----------



## Lord Foppington (Feb 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course pronouncements by the likes of the Cato Institute are precisely what I find puzzling. I know (who doesn't) that libertarians don't like government and find the free market to be the answer to practically every social problem.

While this position has the virtue and appeal of simplicity, it also has all of its faults.

Government responses to social, shared concerns--e.g., national security, education, environmental protection, disaster relief, poverty and malnutrition among children, repression of the civil rights of minorities, regulation of industry, social security, medical assistance to the disabled, elderly, and poor, public transportation, and so on--were made historically precisely because "the free market" wasn't addressing them.

Libertarians inform us puzzlingly either that the market can still somehow fix everything if only given the chance, or that our collective problems aren't really collective after all--they afflict only the contemptibly weak and lazy, so why bother addressing them? Most often, the Cato types oscillate uncertainly between the two sorts of answer. (Of course, many libertarians love big national security, though I'm sure some of the more starry-eyed at the Cato Institute still dream of local militias manned by armed freeholders. On horseback.)

Still seems unrealistic to me. To speak again to your particular fantasy: no matter how much entrepreneurs, "free economic agents," and their kind love to congratulate themselves on being entirely independent, self-created, "self-begot/Self-rais'd by [their] own quick'ning power," they wouldn't exist at all without the strong, fair, even-handed governments that protect, nurture, and educate them and the people they perforce do business with (their customers, associates, labor force).

Ever wonder why people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Mr. Nokia and Mr. Ikea (whoever they are) tend to come from places like the US, Europe, and Japan and not so much from the Sudan and Afghanistan?

Those latter places seem to me to be the natural habitat of your Independent Self-Sovereign.

Stap my vitals!


----------



## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Quite alright. Bring it on, I'm a big girl.



> quote:$100 per hour, sure seems like alot, doesn't it? I know at one time I thought it did. Let us inject some reality into this now. I will be *overly generous* in assumptions, again, just to demonstrate reality here.
> 
> Consulting at $100.00 / hour for 60 hours a week. Four weeks (unpaid of course as you are a consultant) of off time for the year. That is 48 weeks x 60 hours x $100.00 or $288, 000.00. Now, you would think multiply that by five years and you have over $1 million, right? I would like to inject one word here: taxes. Again, let us be generous and only deduct 30% from the total to cover all taxes, Fed, State, local, sales, FICA, SS, etc. So $288, 000.00 x .7 = $201, 000. Over five years, a tad over $1 million.


 First of all, 100x60 is not unrealistic AT ALL. I've never taken off 4 weeks vacation in my life, but I'll give you that one anyway. While you're implying that I would have to find housing for this time, you're forgetting that I've been accumulating hotel, airline, rental car and credit card points (loyalty program points) out the wahzoo. This is one topic I'm VERY familiar with. So not only would this month-off not cost me anything, I would actually be in a position to take a VERY posh vacation, if I so desired, and very likely have points left over. While I'm not advocating such practices, I knew several young consultants who would take the "per diem" option for food, then eat *very* frugally. This practice alone, which is perfectly legal and ethical, could net one another $7000/yr. Some have even sold or "bartered" their airline miles (which while not illegal, IS against airline policy) for cash or whatever else they wanted. In this scenario, the potential cash would be approx. $4000-5000/yr. These two little things alone would help offset the tax burden. If one chose to own property early in the process, then the tax benefits of a home-based business, combined with appreciation and a roommate... If the numbers still aren't working for you, then on the weekends, find one garment per day that you can sell on ebay for a $50 net profit. This will yield another $5200/yr. Obviously, this type of "scappiness" would not be as necessary or attractive when your bill rate is $3-400/hr. But when you're getting started...



> quote:Now, does anyone think that this scenario is realistic? You need 100% of *all income earned* put in the bank, at 60 hours for week, non-stop for five years (and anyone that has done consulting knows, this is a very generous five year average), at my underestimated tax rate, with 100% of *all living expenses* paid for by someone other than yourself.


But go ahead and take 30% out in taxes. That brings us in at $201K/yr. I wasn't adding any interest income (which is unrealistic). That's using a modest 10%, less 3% for inflation. So if we're going to pick nits, then that $1 million, if my college math serves me right, would actually be around 1.4mil.

Like I said in my original post, you can play with the numbers, EITHER way. Up or down. But the lifestyle remains the same.


----------



## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_My suspicion is that 'ISS' people are basically consultants, that breed of human for which a special circle of hell has been reserved.


 Wow. You say the sweetest things.



> quote:I doubt very much that there are any ISS blacksmiths out there, ranging across the globe...


Tell that to the independent, largely uneducated, HARD-WORKING construction workers, oil-field workers, etc who do it every day. They can be found making some good coin on offshore platforms, and rebuilding war-torn and other 3rd world nations ALL around the globe. Their bill rate may not be quite as high as some of their white-collar bretheren, but it's still pretty darned sweet.

I believe the last one I sat next to on a plane said that he made $80/hr PLUS 1.5 OT, which is something we hellacious white-collar types don't get to enjoy. He had spent his adult life working all over the world, travelling, touring, learning about other cultures, and was preparing to retire next year at age 44. While he may not fit the "well-groomed" or "well-educated" profile M8 mentioned in the OP, he does have a relatively independent lifestyle.


----------



## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

I think this thread is being overrun by rampant oversimplification of everything.

There are all kinds of people in the world that are self-sovereign without fitting the mold described in this thread. So, I will contain to maintain that it is just an arbitrary conglomeration of characteristics that are irrelevant.

In fact, if you want to get philosophical, self-sovereignty might just be in our heads. If we feel that we are self-sovereign then we are, whether we are in debt, working for the government or large corporations, or never left the state that we were born in.


----------



## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> I think this thread is being overrun by rampant oversimplification of everything.
> 
> ...


Absolutely the truth. We are self-sovereign if we think we are. Any social, legal or financial sanctions work only to the extent that they bother us.


----------



## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

Well, the "Self-Sovereignty" is probably not completely accurate, since M8 still has a sole primary residence where he is obligated to pay significant taxes. Of course in turn for this, he gets the protection of said government's military and diplomatic corp,as well as conveniences of nice roads, bridges, etc.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jill_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You misquoted me a couple times, such as I never said $100/hour times 60 hours in a week was unrealistic. What I said was that 60 hours per week of consultant billables, over a five year period, is indeed not common. Will you get 120 hour weeks? Sure. Will there also be weeks with less? Yes. Again, five years (your time frame premise) with 60 hours per week, is rare in consulting.

I did leave out interest on investment, the ISS parameters are too dicey for me to even guess what they might be. Also, you do not seem to want to admit that having 100% of all costs covered for all 52 weeks of the year, for five years, is a mighty big assumption. Dedicating 100% of your income for five years to savings is just plain unrealistic, if you cannot or will not admit that, so be it.

Again, I am not arguing personal financial freedom cannot be attained, I am disputing that the exact paramters put forward in the OP are likely, logical, and actually foster financial freedom, I think some of them are actually the contrary. For instance Jill, you claim never to have taken four weeks off in a year in your life. Well, one of the original paramters was having a ton leisure time, premise #8 I believe. Jill, you and I both know the consultant types that are very successful tend to be work-a-holics. If they are not busy at paying gigs, they are busy at getting more paying gigs. Again, it is not gaining personal wealth I am arguing against, it is the collection of premises in the OP.

Warmest regards


----------



## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> You misquoted me a couple times, such as I never said $100/hour times 60 hours in a week was unrealistic. What I said was that 60 hours per week of consultant billables, over a five year period, is indeed not common. Will you get 120 hour weeks? Sure. Will there also be weeks with less? Yes. Again, five years (your time frame premise) with 60 hours per week, is rare in consulting.
> 
> I did leave out interest on investment, the ISS parameters are too dicey for me to even guess what they might be. Also, you do not seem to want to admit that having 100% of all costs covered for all 52 weeks of the year, for five years, is a mighty big assumption. Dedicating 100% of your income for five years to savings is just plain unrealistic, if you cannot or will not admit that, so be it.
> ...


 And note that I didn't put ANYTHING in the savings account for the first five years. That too is unrealistic.

If you think that 80 or 60% utilizaion is more realistic, then fine. The numbers still work out to be an amount that one could live on very comfortably. No? Off to dinner. I'll respond more later.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

*Jill*,

Your posts are excellent. My type of lady! I bet I've seen you over at Flyertalk.com on the miles/points thingy. If you checked my SE Asia blog, that whole trip was either free via points/miles, or written off. It was done in conjunction with a gig.

Your numbers are right on, up/down as you say, the numbers come through.

I am amazed that this is such a volatile subject, with such vitriol in some of the replies and we aren't even talking about religion or politics 

I submit that what we are seeing here is simply the angst of the _collectivsts_ being exposed in its true form. Hatred for those that are competent _indviduals_.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not so. One I met was an engineer/architect/stone mason. He specializes in restoring old stone bridges. He does the work himself and directs local contracted workmen wherever his gig is at. Another I met was a forensic accountant who specializes in forensic accounting of law firms for fraudulent billing. Law firms cringe if this guy is coming after them. There are many, many examples of non-consultants.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Maybe it has to do with the smug tone with which some of the ideas are presented. You have made some lifestyle choices. They may work out for you, but they do not make you better than other people.

Because I don't know you, I can't say for sure whether or not you are smug. The tone appears to be that. Some people do better putting down roots and there is nothing wrong with that. Your posts make it appear that you think there is.

More power to you if you can live your life this way. The way the world works, only a small percentage of people will ever make their living in an expatriate manner.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jill_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, ad hoc rescue. QED.

Warmest regards


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> *Jill*,
> 
> ...


Yes, because I have pretty much torn apart your list of parameters and attempts to support them, I am a collectivist and incompetent. If this is true, then an incompetent collectivist has handed you your rhetorical fanny on a platter. So far, my favorite part has been when you directed me to a book as support for your parameters and when I pointed out your book actually was almost in direct opposition of your mythical ISS, you failed to comprehend the fact. Then in true collectivist thinking, I use a word you do not like so you run to the nanny state (the mods within this paradigm) to have me taken out! Then in your usual inconsistent way, you just went on to use a very derogatory term for some women. Never, *ever* change, you're just too precious.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> 
> Maybe it has to do with the smug tone with which some of the ideas are presented...


The smugness is _inferred_ by the reader, not _implied_ by the poster. I believe this is _inferred_ due to the collectivist angst I described earlier.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm hardly a collectivist. I stand by my post. You asked why you are apparently not popular and I gave my opinion. Some of the others who are posting here and occasionally criticize you are also not leftists.

I will say this is an interesting discussion. I have thought of pushing my life in this direction before, but I'll admit that there is a fear of obtaining enough clients and billable hours. (I'm a CPA, but work for a private employer.)


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Lord Foppington_...Ever wonder why people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Mr. Nokia and Mr. Ikea (whoever they are) tend to come from places like the US, Europe, and Japan and not so much from the Sudan and Afghanistan?
> 
> Those latter places seem to me to be the natural habitat of your Independent Self-Sovereign.


Not the case. Many I have met are right here in the US and work only here in the US. I could easily focus on working solely in the US & Canada. However, I like the adventure and travel, so I work the First World and the Developing World.

There's a lot to see and do out in the world, and we have so very little time to see it all. I choose to take advantage as I can.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Would anyone be interested in helping me compile a more likely list of parameters to create this ISS? I would start with:

1) Eschews consumer debt but is astute in using capital, both leveraged and retained, to generate income.

2) Has a broad range of experience/education in at least one (if not more) specialized areas.

More?


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> My 1st Vignette with the Gooberment
> 
> ...


M8 - strangly enough, I have had this very same conversation a dozen times. I was'nt an individual, except in one case, and in one case I was working for a fortune 1000 corp., in each case when I asked for help the government wasn't able to help, and when I had worked it out for myself they came and asked me for help. I didn't bear any annimosity, I found it just a little amusing. I have a half dozen friends who work for the US commerical service, I think that they are just nice kids with out much of a clue.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> 
> I'm hardly a collectivist. I stand by my post. You asked why you are apparently not popular and I gave my opinion. Some of the others who are posting here and occasionally criticize you are also not leftists.


As for the "popularity", whether it is regarding me or the topic, I do not require approval or disapproval from others. I did not use the word "popularity" nor state that I am seeking it. Reread the post. This is a topic for discussion, not a battle of wills. You will notice that the vitriol starts with opposing responders, not with I.

As for the collectivist issue. Leftists are not the only collectivists. Rightists are too. In fact both Republican and Democrat parties are collectivists. Hence Gooberment is a growth industry. I stated that earlier.



> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> I will say this is an interesting discussion. I have thought of pushing my life in this direction before, but I'll admit that there is a fear of obtaining enough clients and billable hours. (I'm a CPA, but work for a private employer.)


Perhaps this is the true source of your disapproval, as well as that of the others. However, I do congratulate on becoming a CPA. I always advise young people that when they pick a profession, they should pick one that they can do either within the confines of an organization, or one where they can "hang a sign" if the organization let's them down. You have chosen wisely.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> M8 - strangly enough, I have had this very same conversation a dozen times. I was'nt an individual, except in one case, and in one case I was working for a fortune 1000 corp., in each case when I asked for help the government wasn't able to help, and when I had worked it out for myself they came and asked me for help. I didn't bear any annimosity, I found it just a little amusing. I have a half dozen friends who work for the US commerical service, I think that they are just nice kids with out much of a clue.


*globetrotter*,

Thank you for the testimonial. I find these types of vignettes very ironic.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jill_
> 
> Well, the "Self-Sovereignty" is probably not completely accurate, since M8 still has a sole primary residence where he is obligated to pay significant taxes. Of course in turn for this, he gets the protection of said government's military and diplomatic corp,as well as conveniences of nice roads, bridges, etc.


You are correct. I chose the term because it is snappy  We of course could call it other things and then dissect the semantics forever.

The term actually derives from, "an indvidual who seeks independence via his own trade/skills in order to avoid being dictated to directly by employers, or having his career destiny controlled by a corporation." Or words to that effect.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> Would anyone be interested in helping me compile a more likely list of parameters to create this ISS? I would start with:
> 
> ...


This is the best compliment this subject has received yet. Hijack my topic and redefine it as one's own - and ask others to _collectively_ share in the larceny. ROTFLMAO! 

P.S.

Not addressing the poster, this is for the consumption of others 

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> You have earned yourself "ingored" status, and will be responded to you no furhter. I turn my back to you.


Shooting fish in a barrel.

As consistent as ever I see. Do you ever keep things straight in life or logic? If so, it has not been demonstrated thus far.

Further, it is not a hijack, although I hold little hope you will realize this fact. Rather, it is directly on top. Defining the ISS is the topic and I have merely started to attempt to develop a set of parameters that are somewhat more logical, intelligent, and credible.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> P.S.
> 
> Not addressing the poster, this is for the consumption of others


LMFAO, edited in after I point out how entirely inconsistent you are. _Ad hoc_ rescue at its hilarious best, it does not get any better than this.


----------



## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> ... Sorry, ad hoc rescue. QED.


 I'm sorry. Not sure what you're saying here. I only had 4 years of Latin, so forgive me if I mis-interpret your statement. I'm inferring that you've demonstrated something to me? Is that correct? Or does my memory fail me (which - Latin or no Latin - would not be a terrible shock)!


----------



## Preston (Aug 8, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_My suspicion is that 'ISS' people are basically consultants, that breed of human for which a special circle of hell has been reserved.


 Um, that's quite possibly the rudest thing I've seen on this forum in a long time. Seriously, dude. A well-respected member of the forum presents a rational scenario in her career as a consultant. The most charming response you can think of is to tell her that there's a special circle of hell that has been reserved for her?

Is this the kind of conversation that usually works for you with the ladies? Regardless of how you think about consultants in general, that's beyond the pale, man.


----------



## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Preston_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have _got _to lighten up.

------------------


----------



## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

So do consultants who switch to fashion go to hell too?

See I think it depends on whether or not the consultant is stylish but that's me. Where in Hell do the consultants reside... near the rude people or the poorly dressed?

Yeeeeesh, interesting topic, amazing to see how nasty it got and I can't quite put my finger on how that happened or why.

When Jill and I both traveled over 100K miles per year (I think my max was around 160K) we spent a lot of time on airplanes and chatting with strangers in Admiral's Clubs and met a lot of interesting folks whose life was similar to the ISS herein described. My favorite was a guy who cashed in his options after 10 years of doing what I was doing at the time, moved his money and self to Costa Rica and opened a shrimp farm. He was the least stressed guy in 1st class that night and it was pretty fascinating. He visited 'Home' once per month or so and explained that in Costa Rica he lived like a Sultan on $100K per year or so... and was accidentally making $100k every month raising a good chilled appetizer.

He fit kinda close to the description, as did others I met and when the tech market was really booming it was not unusual for people with certain specialties to bill out for more than $300/hr plus expenses. I would imagine this remains true.

My sister could do it... but I think with her security rating they would shoot her if she tried to consult any foreign governments on areas of network security... drat.

It's interesting hypothetically... personally I am a homebody and my nightmare scenario would be a return to living out of a suitcase and trying to remember what city I was in and who I was supposed to meet with each morning. I'll take the insistent ear chewing of a small spaniel with a full bladder over a wakeup call any day - but I can see the appeal of the ISS lifestyle.

Also, technology and specialization are making this sort of life far more commonplace and sensible. When I was in that game I was part of a team of 5 specialists supporting a group of 50 in three countries and in order to close a deal one of us had to be there. We lived on airplanes and in my best financial (worst lifestyle) quarter I think I spent 28 of the last 30 days of the quarter on the road and was never in one place for more than 20 hours. Doable? Yup. Desirable - your call.

www.carlofranco.com
Handmade Seven Fold Ties


----------



## kenz (Jul 25, 2005)

I'm with CarloFranco on the homestay preference. We make our annual trip to UK next month, and I'm seriously wondering why videoconferencing hasn't become more prevalent. The number of people I know who dislike traveling makes it a growth industry cinch.

My brother (in Britain) regularly traveled Europe and Russia for years in his IT job, and for him it was an endless round of taxis, hotel rooms and soulless office blocks. The exotic quickly became the mundane.

I similarly find myself wearily trudging down endless corridors, passing travel-clones (who says the world is made up of different peoples...they all look the same to me), and wondering if the luggage is following or ahead.

Whether giving handouts to beggars in 3rd world countries or hobnobbing with business class, my traveled life has been very predictable. Travel instead makes me weary and jaded. It hasn't been the liberating, surprise-driven, intellectually stimulating journey I imagined 40 years ago. I've been conned badly.


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by kenz_
> 
> I'm with CarloFranco on the homestay preference. We make our annual trip to UK next month, and I'm seriously wondering why videoconferencing hasn't become more prevalent. The number of people I know who dislike traveling makes it a growth industry cinch.
> 
> ...


its a real lifetsytle choice. I have been doing the international sales stuff for 17 of my 39 years. I had afew years when I was sitting on just under 1 million status miles (about 350 or so actual flown annual miles) and an average of 130 nights away from home over 17 years. there are a lot of people who do it for 2-4 years. and a small group who end up doing it for their whole life. depends how you handle it, and if you have other viable options.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

As I mentioned previously, the Road Warrior style of travel is not a requirement, nor does it conflict with being an ISS. However, most true Road Warriors I meet are not ISS. They travel a lot with great frequency. By frequency I mean some of these folks are doing five cities in a five days. That would kill me. Plus lining up five clients for successive gigs like that would be tricky if one was always on the road. True Road Warriors are found in companies like Accenture, etc., and their gig calendar is managed for them by their employers.

My gigs tend to be more excursion-like. Usually at least one week's duration if outside the US, and sometimes as much as six weeks. This is a little bit easier on the body, and the mind, being that one is settled into one location. The longest gig(s) I have had is one month in Melbourne followed by another month in Kuala Lumpur.

Airplane hopping from one day to the next can be a real killer, and I would not be able to adopt that lifestyle.

Regardless, any type of travel job requires that there be a good support system at home if one has a family.

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

I love America too much to ever expatriate.


----------



## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> LS-
> This puts your libertarian arguments in other threads into a more interesting context, thanks. Care to talk a little bit about what you do? I'm getting ready to join the non-military workforce and am looking for input from everywhere. You can email me through AAAC profile if you'd prefer.
> ...


I have two companies, a primary and a "back up." The primary is a boutique services company wherein I make it possible for a bunch of highly skilled technical people, with skills I don't have, to make a lot more money than they otherwise could on their own or working for an idiot or big org. In providing this venue for them, I make more than I ever thought I could. The "back up," or "life boat" as I call it, is a real estate license and a few investment properties. I live modestly, free from personal debt. I use credit cards which I pay off in full monthly.

I hesitate to give a lot of advice. I'm a salmon who made it up the waterfall and it's hard for me to say how. Perhaps never having had a safety net of any kind kept me scared enough long enough to perservere where others might have bailed out or slacked off.

I made a radical "career change" at one point and learned one valuable lesson that I will pass on with the caveat that it is a generalization. All business processes are fundamentally the same. What changes are the nouns, the terms; the verbs are a constant. Understand the process and you can move fairly easily from one venue to another. The key to doing that with a quick ramp up is glossaries. You can find a glossary for every business. The process I refer to is thermodynamic in nature, you have to know how to invest or infuse _something_, time, knowledge, creativity, capital, raw materials, communication skills, guts, into a productive stream to add value to it, to _create wealth_. It's hard to make money for yourself alone, but if you can make money for other people, your boat will rise with theirs in a very solid way. But there is a big IF there and that leads me to another piece of advice.

You have to know how to secure your interest in the deal. I had an undergraduate degree in liberal arts from an excellent school. I had a commission in the Army upon graduation. (Sound familiar?) I had brains, guts, blah, blah, blah. I could make a buck but I was living deal to deal. I was frustrated and scared; I wasn't any better than my last deal. Every time I made a deal, it seemed so easy and the money was so good I couldn't imagine doing anything else. Then the money would run out and I would have to scramble and the only way out was to score again. I was losing my nerve. I decided I wanted a "real job." The next time I got ahead, I went to paralegal school, a good one, and memorized everything. I never made it to an interview as a paralegal (thank god), but it was the best move I could have made.

Maybe people learn this stuff in business school, but what I learned there 20 years after graduating from college changed everything. I learned the ins and outs of contracts, I learned corporate structure and governance, I learned about real estate law, I learned about legal research, criminal procedure, estates wills and trusts...I learned where the controls and buttons of society were and how to manipulate them. I'm not a lawyer, but I understand legal principles and how to do and scrutinize the paperwork. Best educational bang for the buck I know of.

Armed with all that, I went forth and changed careers and got myself set up right. Contract law is critical, not so much because people are out to rip you off -- very few people are really out to get you in business, and, in most cases, their word is good within the limitations of their power. The reason understanding contracts is important is that you learn all the various things that need to be taken into account to give an agreement a solid foundation; many people agree to things in good faith without thinking through all the contingencies. Often, people agree to things with you in good faith that they simply don't have a right to agree to. You need to be able to surface what their limitations are because they themselves might not know, in which case it will bite you both. Understanding contract law makes all that second nature and then, when you have an agreement with someone, it is fully informed, well thought out, and binding and doesn't unravel and go to hell when the first wild card is dealt. The next most important thing is understanding coroprate goverance, how things are set up so you know who to make your deals with. I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point.

Hope this helps. Needless to say, I've made a long story short!


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Martinis at 8_
> 
> As I mentioned previously, the Road Warrior style of travel is not a requirement, nor does it conflict with being an ISS. However, most true Road Warriors I meet are not ISS. They travel a lot with great frequency. By frequency I mean some of these folks are doing five cities in a five days.


that is what my life usuually is like - I had a period when it was common for me to be in Norway on monday, Mumbai on Wed, and Seoul on Friday, sometimes with a stop in Singapore on thursday. it is very common for me to have meetings in 5 different european cities in a week and take the night train between the cities.

my company has never set my schedule - it is a matter of achieving results. remember, that to some extent you are a staff position to your clients. many road warriors hold line positions (myself included). the more cities I get to, the more sales I close, the more revenue the company has.

it is extremly uncommon for me to be 3 nights in a row in one city - unless I am involved in very complex negotiations, training or a trade show.

like I said - there are a lot of variations of the lifestyle of the expat/globalist.


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Globetrotter,

And I thought my schedule was bad. When I was "living" in Sofia I probably spent 160 nights on the road and lived out of the Vienna airport and the Sheraton at the Frankfurt airport. After about two years of such a schedule I knew I had to change my pace after waking up on a BA flight and having no idea where I was going. I literally had to ask the flight attendant where we were going. Turned out I was headed to Newark to visit my mom. There was a good road warrior work of fiction a few years ago entitled "Air World" by Walter Kirn. When the protaganist of the story talked about how he loved the smell of jet fuel it hit a nerve!

Now when I travel for work I get to do so at a leisurely pace though I am no longer a Lufthansa Senator. 

Karl


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Globetrotter,
> 
> ...


hey Karl - where/when did you stay in sofia? I was there a lot in 2003 (maybe 25 nights over the year) I used to stay at the radison. I was selling telecommunications stuff.

yeah, I know what you mean - I used to hub in frankfurt, too. one day I walked into 2 different senator lounges and one business lounge (back in the pre-wifi days I was looking for an internet connection) and the staff at each of the desks greeted me by name - then I knew I was spending too much time in the frankfurt airport.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> ...After about two years of such a schedule I knew I had to change my pace after waking up on a BA flight and having no idea where I was going...


That hasn't happened to me, but I have gotten in my car to drive to the store and have forgotten where I was going [:0]

M8

_I've seen so much in so many places
So many heartaches, so many faces
So many dirty things
You couldn't even believe_


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Just bumping this due to the flag-burning thread, and also since we seem to know each other a bit more now :icon_smile_wink:

Being an ISS does not mean one has to release himself from a political entity, nor act hostile towards a political entity [like flag-burning]. Generally it would mean transcending the confines that a government [or corporation] may be able to put on someone. Much of this is dependent on attitude, and does not require going off and buying one's own island to set up as an independent kingdom. And yes of course, financial independence is probably a must.

M8


----------

