# Fused vs. Unfused Collars



## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I've seen some discussion about fused vs. unfused shirt collars recently, in the context of MTM shirts.

So what's it all about?

Are they better? Why? Or is it purely personal preference? Is it good for some types of shirts but not others? Eg. buttondown collars vs. spread collars?

Thank you, I await elightenment on this.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

*The Fused versus Traditional Collar:*

a] Style: A properly fused collar is always 'flat'. A traditional collar is, no matter how accomplished the ironer, always a bit 'wavy'. There are those who like to think that the 'wavy' appearance is more traditional. They are entirely correct. A cobblestone street is also more traditional than an asphalt one. Upon which would you rather drive for eight hours? In the arena of styling, therefore, neither fused or traditional methods are 'better'. Preference here is strictly in the eye of the wearer. In my case, I lean towards fused for my dress shirts and traditional for casual or sport shirts.

b] Construction: Without boring you with hours of technical details, the fused collar is much, much more difficult to properly construct than a traditional one. However, it is easier to improperly construct a fused collar than a traditional one. The reasons for these seeming contradictions are many; understanding can be accomplished only by in-person observation.

c] A poorly constructed traditional collar will always remain exactly as poorly constructed as it was in the first place.

d] A poorly constructed fused collar will get worse continuously throughout its life. A few of the major pitfalls include continuous shrinkage, debonding between the shell fabric and interlining resulting in bubbles in the shell fabric, and debonding of multiple inner layers of interlining resulting in non-removable ridges.

e] The majority of fused collars were, during the 1980's and 1990's, poorly constructed. Though the percentage of more appropriately fused collars seems to be on the increase, there is no way other than reputation to judge fusing quality prior to multiple launderings.

f] To the skilled maker, there are a myriad of additional styling options and wonderful construction features available only through the use of a fused collar.

g] A Footnote: Fusing other parts of the shirt is always questionable. The fused component of the collar (the 'leaf') does not touch the skin and is therefore not the part that gets a 'ring around the collar'. The 'ring' affects the non-fused collar band. This is important because soil removal from fused parts is more difficult. For this reason, fusing folding French cuffs is a terrible idea. Fusing is fine for button cuffs as the fused side does not come in contact with the skin. However, button cuffs are commonly used for casual or sport shirts which, in my opinion, are preferably made with the more wavy, loose, traditional methods.

*The Fusing Process:*

Fusing is a process involving the use of high temperature (approximately 155 degrees Centigrade) and high pressure (approximately 35 pounds per square inch) which causes the shell fabric (cotton shirting) to adhere to the interlining. The adhesion is provided by a polyamide adhesive. Polyamide adhesive is a type of plastic. In the actual process the cut collar shaped cloth, interlining, and its coating of adhesive are sandwiched together. They are then heated to the specified temperature. When the specified temperature is achieved, the high pressure is applied uniformly to the three part sandwich for a short period of time which varies from 12 to 18 seconds. The pressure is then removed and the sandwich allowed to cool. The resulting collar exterior is now flat and somewhat "hard". It then returns to the normal shirtmaking processes, is made into a collar, and attached to the shirt as any traditional construction might dictate. The polyamide bond is permanent as long as it is not again heated above 150 degrees Centigrade. In the vast majority of commercial operations, this fusing process is accomplished in a fusing machine which contains a heat tunnel through which passes a conveyor belt. The sandwich is placed on the conveyor belt, proceeds through the heat tunnel, and is then run in-between two high pressure rollers. It then continues out the far side of the machine while cooling. The problem with this process is that plastic or a plastic bond, if in motion while cooling, becomes weak.

A conveyor belt, due to the nature of its operation, is not a flat path but instead a series of waves caused by the underlying rollers. Thus, when the collar is cooling as it moves out of the tunnel, it is not only in forward motion but also undergoing the bending motion provided by the wave characteristics of the belt's rollers. My determination (back in 1982 as previously detailed) was that I needed a machine which would keep the collar/polyamide/interlining sandwich stationery during the cooling process. If you look carefully at the machine ...

​
you will see a large aluminum plate suspended from springs. This is the heat surface. The collar sandwich is inserted on a flat metal plate underneath the heat surface where it is then allowed to achieve the necessary temperature. At that time, the 12 ton hydraulic jack you see at the top forces the heat plate down onto the collar sandwich. After the required dwell time, the heating surface raises off of the now fused collar. The metal plate is then withdrawn and its contents allowed to rest motionless until they return to room temperature. Hence, the collar remains perfectly stationary on a stable surface while the bond is drying. This results in the strongest possible bond. Theory is wonderful; product testing reality. Prior to releasing any of the fused collars to my clients, I tested the machine and the resulting products for a period of 18 months. I have one of the original collars I fused back in 1984 on a pink broadcloth shirt. It has been laundered more than 250 times, which is completely unprovable, and I keep it here for all who might be interested in seeing it. The collar began at exactly 16.5 inches in size and is now 16.25 inches in size.

As examples, here are a few fused collars. Notice the perfectly flat appearance:

​
For comparison ... Left two are fused; right buttondown is not. Note the difference in flatness:


​
Using fusing, even extraordinarily high collars can remain flat. This collar contains 3 layers of interlining. It is so strong and stiff that it can be detached and used as a weapon like Oddjob's bowler:


​
Virtually the same collar in pre-fusing days. You can easily see how it is nowhere near as flat:


​
Here's one of those engineering marvels which could not have been done as nicely before fusing was available ... a rather unique, 3.75" high fused formal "Stock" collar:

​
Here shown in use by Tom Wolfe:



Copyright © 2006 Alexander Kabbaz/CustomShirt1.com. All rights reserved. Reproduction in any form is prohibited without written permission of the copyright owner.​


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Phew! That is an amazing amount of work and its just for the collar. Well, one gets what one pays for . . . Alex, my hat is off in salute.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

So Alex you are also an inventor, necessity is the mother etc. as they say.

I notice of the three side-by-side pics, the unfused one is on a button down.

Of my Brooks Brothers shirts, the button downs have a much thinner collar, but I can't say for sure that it isn't fused. It isn't so stiff, that's for sure and it has a bit of a roll to it, very cute! They haven't been washed enough yet to know how they'll hold up.

Thanks for the elucidation, I appreciate it.

Trying to figure out how to apply these principles to the various MTM outfits advertising here. It sounds like the big question is, is their collar fusing done properly? And then, does one prefer the fused or not?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

zzdocxx said:


> Trying to figure out how to apply these principles to the various MTM outfits advertising here. It sounds like the big question is, is their collar fusing done properly?


Ask whether their fusing is "tunnel" (bad) or "clamshell" (good).

Another factor to consider is the quality of the interlining. Although a polyamide bond can be adhered to any quality of interlining the result will be no better than the substrate. If the interlining is of poor quality it will shrink and weaken whether fused or not. There are some excellent ones made in Germany which would retail for $10-$12/yard. There are others which would retail for under $1.00/yard. However, you probably won't be able to find out what any particular firm uses.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks Alex, I will indeed ask about it.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

zzdocxx said:


> Thanks Alex, I will indeed ask about it.


Please post if you get any answers. Very interested to know details.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Alex, thank you for your magnum opus on collar fusing. It is quite an education. :icon_hailthee: It is always best to get information straight from the horse's mouth, rather than from the other end.

Some of the latter: My own small experience when I still had (AKA, could afford) the services of a shirtmaker was that I never had a problem with the fused collars he made, either in terms of appearance or laundering. In fact, I preferred an edge stitched fused collar for all collar styles, *except* the button down. To me, the button-down fused collars just never did look right.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Brilliance, Alex. 

If one eschews fusings in french cuffs, how does one avoid the floppy/crumply problem that some of my non-fused cuffs have? Is it simply a question of a sufficiently heavy interlining?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Flanderian said:


> Alex, thank you for your magnum opus on collar fusing. It is quite an education. :icon_hailthee: It is always best to get information straight from the horse's mouth, rather than from the other end.
> 
> Some of the latter: My own small experience when I still had (AKA, could afford) the services of a shirtmaker was that I never had a problem with the fused collars he made, either in terms of appearance or laundering. In fact, I preferred an edge stitched fused collar for all collar styles, *except* the button down. To me, the button-down fused collars just never did look right.


I agree. Given the popularization of the button-down by the extremely intelligent and equally frumpy William Buckley, a perfectly flat button-down is a contradiction in terms.

Interestingly, the first person to tell me this was Buckley himself. My first shirt shop was in the middle of nowhere; the only store on NYC's 35th Street at the always smoggy entrance to the Midtown Tunnel. _National Review's_ office was in the next block. Innocent young shirt maker that I was I decided to give it a go. Well ... promising to make him a flatter, neater button-down collar crowning a shirt which actually fit properly was _not_ the way to go!



CuffDaddy said:


> Brilliance, Alex.
> 
> If one eschews fusings in french cuffs, how does one avoid the floppy/crumply problem that some of my non-fused cuffs have? Is it simply a question of a sufficiently heavy interlining?


Counselor: Having been all-too-recently chastised by lalaland for my use of gutter language, I made a personal vow not to use the words "cheap" or "crap" in answering your question.

The answer varies:

Some shirt makers go by the philosophy that, because the French cuff folds and therefore the interlining is effectively doubled, a less costly, less durable, less substantial, less dimensionally stable, easier to cut, easier to sew, easier to iron interlining will suffice.

Other shirt makers go by the philosophy that, because the French cuff is bulky and not very visible because it is under the jacket, a less costly, less durable, less substantial, less dimensionally stable, easier to cut, easier to sew, easier to iron interlining will suffice.

Yet other shirt makers go by the philosophy that, because the client wants to pay as little as possible and the shirt maker wants to make as much profit as possible, a less costly, less durable, less substantial, less dimensionally stable, easier to cut, easier to sew, easier to iron interlining will suffice.

All three philosophies yield the same result: Flop & Crumple.

A very few shirt makers use a substantial, stiff, expensive German interlining at 8-12 time the cost of the previously discussed interlining. Regretfully, it neither flops nor crumples.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Funny.

Yes Mr. Buckley had a way with words.

I was just wondering, I see some pics with a perfect roll to the button down collar, are they using malleable stays, having them ironed that way, or ? ? ?



> Flop & Crumple


Tut, tut, let's watch our language, shall we?

:wink2:


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

zzdocxx said:


> Funny.
> 
> Yes Mr. Buckley had a way with words.
> 
> ...


I think that's in the cut of the collar more than anything else. I've never, ever seen a button-down collar with room for stays. I have heard of people bending collar stays, but they're been wearing them with spread collars in an attempt to have a mid-point between an unstayed collar and a stiff one. Not the best look, and far too much work for me.

I don't think it's possible to iron a shirt so the collar will roll, but I bow to more experienced members on that point.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

zzdocxx said:


> Funny.
> 
> Yes Mr. Buckley had a way with words.
> 
> ...


That can be accomplished using a good, slightly stiff interlining and precise marking of the button placement (while the shirt is being fitted on the client). Button down collars with stays are rare although we do occasionally make them for use with the malleable stays you reference.

Trying to accomplish that in RTW is simply hit or miss. How perfect the roll depends upon how the collar lays on each person. Posture differences, neck length, collar band height, and location of collar bones are all ingredients in the mix. The yellow collar somewhere above actually had a great roll on the client; not so on the mannequin.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> ...it neither flops nor crumples.


Impressive


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

BTW ... did I forget to say that, except for tennis shirts for which the idea was properly invented, I have never worn a button-down collar in my entire life?

And now, just in case one o' doz trads comes over here and decides to be distinctly un-tradly by reading a collar fusing thread ... I'm gonna duck & cover!


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Just remembered where I saw that, when I scrolled back up Alex, it was from one of the ads.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> BTW ... did I forget to say that, except for tennis shirts for which the idea was properly invented, I have never worn a button-down collar in my entire life?











This discussion takes me back my youth. Ahhh, the golden days! The ultimate style statement among certain young men in my high school was the _*high-roll*_ button down! Much favored by wiseguys in training, preferably in an iridescent cloth with 4" or even 4 1/2" points. Amazingly, these contraptions often did have a perfect roll though they usually looked as if they were trying to swallow the wearer's head.

Properly worn, it would lie under a *continental *cut suit jacket with 1" lapels, jetted pockets and matching nut-hugging, high water trousers. Also iridescent, but this time of sharkskin. Tieless, the shirt would be worn unbuttoned to below the chest, allowing everyone to admire the gold chains and medals.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Is that where those came from? I'm so relieved. All these years I've felt guilty that California foisted them on the national consciousness. Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you!


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> The answer varies:
> 
> Some shirt makers go by the philosophy that, because the French cuff folds and therefore the interlining is effectively doubled, a less costly, less durable, less substantial, less dimensionally stable, easier to cut, easier to sew, easier to iron interlining will suffice.
> 
> ...


All of my double-cuff shirts have either a light sewn interlining or a stiff fused interlining. The stiff cuffs are neither comfortable nor do they look very good. I suppose my cuffs with the light sewn interlining might be flimsy, but I can't say I've known any better. I always thought they were meant to be less substantial like that. Single-cuff shirts from the same maker have the same interlining and aren't so effective, especially where there is only one button and the cuff just crumples.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Flanderian said:


> View attachment 4559
> 
> 
> a *continental *cut suit jacket


Had to look that up, found something on a site called Dandy Fashioner, or was that a blog?

https://dandyfashioner.blogspot.com/2009/09/suit-three-kinds-drape-continental-sack.html


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Matt S said:


> All of my double-cuff shirts have either a light sewn interlining or a stiff fused interlining. The stiff cuffs are neither comfortable nor do they look very good. I suppose my cuffs with the light sewn interlining might be flimsy, but I can't say I've known any better. I always thought they were meant to be less substantial like that. Single-cuff shirts from the same maker have the same interlining and aren't so effective, especially where there is only one button and the cuff just crumples.


You need to reach a compromise here. There are good, stable, mid-weight interlinings for French cuffs which are both comfortable and look professional. Fusing *anything* which touches the skin is simply a bad idea. Not only will it irritate and chafe, but fused cloth makes soil removal much more difficult. This does not apply to the collar leaf because, when properly pressed, it does not touch the neck.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

zzdocxx said:


> Had to look that up, found something on a site called Dandy Fashioner, or was that a blog?
> 
> https://dandyfashioner.blogspot.com/2009/09/suit-three-kinds-drape-continental-sack.html


I think it's a blog, and of some interest. Thank you.

The term _*continental *_as I was recalling it has no real relevance to those offered in the blog. It's 50+ years old and was the common name given by retailers to a type of cut that was actually an American RTW reinterpretation of mainly Italian suits of the same era with very slim and streamlined details. The difference being that the American RTW version tended to exaggerate these elements and, to my eye, tend to the tasteless.


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

*1960's Continental suit with high roll button down collar shirt.







*


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Amazing how the over-the-top tight-and-short suit from the 60's is less extreme than the average stuff in store's and men's magazines today. WTF are we doing?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

CuffDaddy said:


> WTF are we doing?


 May I be exempted from that *"we"*?


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> BTW ... did I forget to say that, except for tennis shirts for which the idea was properly invented, I have never worn a button-down collar in my entire life?
> 
> And now, just in case one o' doz trads comes over here and decides to be distinctly un-tradly by reading a collar fusing thread ... I'm gonna duck & cover!


My exception takes me to high school, when I had a pale yellow button down fitted Haggar shirt which was my 'go-to' for important Debate/Forensics tournaments. Since then, ZERO button downs.



CuffDaddy said:


> Amazing how the over-the-top tight-and-short suit from the 60's is less extreme than the average stuff in store's and men's magazines today. WTF are we doing?


And they actually looked good, not this overly fitted garbage now a days.


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## dingbat (Jul 24, 2008)

Can I suggest that Mr Kabbaz's fused/unfused collars post be added to the Hall of Fame thread? 

And every other similar Kabbaz post like it?

Utterly fascinating.


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## mhj (Oct 27, 2010)

We must have gone to the same high school.



Flanderian;1306337 said:


> View attachment 4559
> 
> 
> This discussion takes me back my youth. Ahhh, the golden days! The ultimate style statement among certain young men in my high school was the _*high-roll*_ button down! Much favored by wiseguys in training, preferably in an iridescent cloth with 4" or even 4 1/2" points. Amazingly, these contraptions often did have a perfect roll though they usually looked as if they were trying to swallow the wearer's head.
> ...


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

dingbat said:


> Can I suggest that Mr Kabbaz's fused/unfused collars post be added to the Hall of Fame thread?
> 
> And every other similar Kabbaz post like it?
> 
> Utterly fascinating.


Thank you very much.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

dingbat said:


> Can I suggest that Mr Kabbaz's fused/unfused collars post be added to the Hall of Fame thread?
> 
> And every other similar Kabbaz post like it?
> 
> Utterly fascinating.


Agreed.

I would, actually, much prefer a daily newsletter containing all of Mr. Kabbaz's posts for the day. It would be much more interesting than the blogs I read.


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## dingbat (Jul 24, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Thank you very much.


You're welcome.

If you ever consider writing a book on the intricacies of shirtmaking you've got a buyer right here.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

EP said:


> *1960's Continental suit with high roll button down collar shirt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Certainly tending in that direction, but not extreme enough. Trousers much too loose, jacket not short enough, or cut cloose enough, shoulders too broad. Bobby D. had talent, and this suit looks too well tailored. The shirt collar isn't tasteless enough.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I would, actually, much prefer a daily newsletter containing all of Mr. Kabbaz's posts for the day. It would be much more interesting than the blogs I read.


*
SARTORIAL EXCELLENCE NEWS*​

East Hampton, New York - _Exclusive to AskAndy_ - Due our addition of brassieres, bathing suits, and beach batitas (robe-ettes) to the CustomShirt1.com repertoire, our stockrooms were overflowing. Thus we had to make yet another addition to our burgeoning studio/warehouse. Tomorrow the roofers are coming. That made today cleanup day for all of the wood and other accoutrement of our in-house carpenters. And so ... in the close-to-3-digit heat, we carried beams, planks, and panels off to the trash trailer.

_And for tomorrow ... _:devil:


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> Certainly tending in that direction, but not extreme enough The shirt collar isn't tasteless enough.. Trousers much too loose, jacket not short enough, or cut cloose enough, shoulders too broad. Bobby D. had talent, and this suit looks too well tailored. The shirt collar isn't tasteless enough.


I could be wrong, but it also looks to me like he's only buttoned the bottom one on a 2 button jacket. That may be intended to make him look taller (as I recall, he was well under 6'). Of course, performers dress to present a memorable visual image, and he certainly had stage presence. That was typical attire for the time - at least SDJr went with one button...


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I think the overall point is becoming muddled.

These days performers have "wardrobe malfunctions" and some can't even remember the words to the national anthem of their country.

Foolish looking in hindsight as the 50's-60's-70's attire may have been ... at least they were wearing suits and ties! And as much as we may not like the suits and ties of today's "fashion" ... would you rather flip-flops, shirtless sequined vests, and exposed breasts?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

mhj said:


> We must have gone to the same high school.


Only if you're from New Joisey!

When I referred to wise guys in training, it wasn't in jest! :icon_saint7kg:


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

bluesman said:


> I could be wrong, but it also looks to me like he's only buttoned the bottom one on a 2 button jacket. That may be intended to make him look taller (as I recall, he was well under 6'). Of course, performers dress to present a memorable visual image, and he certainly had stage presence. That was typical attire for the time - at least SDJr went with one button...


Yes, Mr. Davis has the look down. Except that it's *very *well tailored. Pretty sure it ain't OTR.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Given how much the man was making at the time, OTR would have been weird, just weird.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

bluesman said:


> I could be wrong, but it also looks to me like he's only buttoned the bottom one on a 2 button jacket. That may be intended to make him look taller (as I recall, he was well under 6').


That's a different type of 2-button suit than what you're used to seeing, so don't compare it to the 2-button suits you've seen in stores for the past 45 years. It used to be a popular style, which is like a 3-button jacket sans the bottom button and cutaway more at the bottom. Two-button jackets that have been popular since the 1960s are cut more like 3-button jackets sans the top button, that's why only the top button is fastened. In the case above, it is designed to be buttoned like a 3-button jacket. Same concept as the 1-button jacket buttoning the same as a contemporary 2-button jacket.

I'm not sure if that jacket qualifies to be called the "paddock"-style jacket. Most of what I've seen called paddock jackets place the 2 buttons in between where the buttons on a 3-button suit are placed. So both buttons are equidistant from the waist and both are buttoned. Some shorter men (like the Duke of Windsor) left the top open for a longer lapel line.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> ?..would you rather flip-flops, shirtless sequined vests, and *exposed breasts?*


Umm...you say that like it's a bad thing?


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## J.Marko (Apr 14, 2009)

Mr. Kabbaz, if you never wear button down collars, what do you wear when tie-less, or are you never tie-less in a shirt?

And thank you for the informative posts!


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

Flanderian said:


> Yes, Mr. Davis has the look down. Except that it's *very *well tailored. Pretty sure it ain't OTR.


According to the literature, Sammy Davis and most the rat pack had their suits
custom made by the hollywood tailor shop of Sy Devore. Their shirts were custom
made by Nat Wise of Beverly Hills. That shop is now owned by Anto Distinctive
Shirtmakers who still have the shirt patterns from their famous clients.

Bobby Darin's suit is undoubtedly custom made. His tailor seems to have taken the elements of the continental suit and adapted them for Mr. Darin without being
overly extreme about it.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> *would you rather ... exposed breasts?*


Yes, please. Or at least lightly covered ones like those of your website :devil:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

J.Marko said:


> Mr. Kabbaz, if you never wear button down collars, what do you wear when tie-less, or are you never tie-less in a shirt?


Placement of the first front placket button determines how wide apart the collar is when the collar button is open. I make my casual shirts with a variety of collars - most less spread than my dress collar. On those shirts, the first button is located 1.5" down rather than the standard 3". This keeps the collar leaves close together.



smmrfld said:


> Umm...you say that like it's a bad thing?


Perhaps I went just a bit too far. I'll have to fire myself.



TheGreatTwizz said:


> Yes, please. Or at least lightly covered ones like those of your website :devil:


 Oh ... do you mean our pajama page?

​


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Oh ... do you mean our pajama page?


One has to respect the juxtaposition of pyjama bottoms and high heels


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Placement of the first front placket button determines how wide apart the collar is when the collar button is open. I make my casual shirts with a variety of collars - most less spread than my dress collar. On those shirts, the first button is located 1.5" down rather than the standard 3". This keeps the collar leaves close together.


I like this idea, maybe I can incorporate it into a MTM shirt order, hmmm. . .

Thanks again Alex.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

zzdocxx said:


> I like this idea, maybe I can incorporate it into a MTM shirt order, hmmm. . .
> 
> Thanks again Alex.


If you do be sure to specify that you want one more button than standard. Otherwise you may find your shirt buttons only to your waist as most MTM companies use a set number of buttons on the front placket.

Additionally, the force required to hold the collar leaves closer exerts a slight bit more stress on the first front button. This is stress better dispersed by having the shirt made with a center placket (stronger because it has interlining) rather than a plain (often called "French") front. Depending upon the weight of each collar, I sometimes also insert interlining in the right front center.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Got it, wow, I never realized the complexity.

Seems to hold true of many things that appear simple on the surface; I continue to learn this.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

zzdocxx said:


> Got it, wow, I never realized the complexity.
> 
> Seems to hold true of many things that appear simple on the surface; I continue to learn this.


Let's keep things in perspective. That ... is not complex. That's logic. I had it figured in my early 30's.

*These *are complex:


​
I'm now twice as old and have those half as figured out as I did back then. Perspective. :icon_smile:


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

You mean women's clothing, right?

:icon_smile_wink:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

zzdocxx said:


> You mean women's clothing, right?
> 
> :icon_smile_wink:


Oh, yeah. That, too.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I believe this will illustrate the point more fully:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

zzdocxx said:


> I believe this will illustrate the point more fully:


That's fabulous! 
I notice there is an "Off" indicator on the "Women" panel. Does it work? If so, how much is this device (price is unimportant) and can it be sent via Next Day Air (that's important)?

Alternatively, I have found my own method of telling the difference. Go into your bathroom. Count the number of items which are yours. Then, if you have the time, count hers. In our case, I have 9 and she has 357. Not counting her items in as-yet-unopened UPS packages.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Our case is not _quite_ so extreme. We have a three compartment 'medicine' chest. Two compartments hold hers, bulging. One holds mine, sparingly. We won't talk about how much of the under-sink area I don't even approach . . .

And Alex, every time your add shows the pajama page I lose track of what I thought I was going to write. It isn't just the high heels and pajama bottoms. It's also the line of the elastic . . .


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Oldsarge said:


> And Alex, every time your add shows the pajama page I lose track of what I thought I was going to write. It isn't just the high heels and pajama bottoms. It's also the line of the elastic . . .


I'm sorry.

Is this better? There's no elastic in this one:



:devil:​


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I think the overall point is becoming muddled.
> 
> These days performers have "wardrobe malfunctions" and some can't even remember the words to the national anthem of their country.
> 
> Foolish looking in hindsight as the 50's-60's-70's attire may have been ... at least they were wearing suits and ties! And as much as we may not like the suits and ties of today's "fashion" ... would you rather flip-flops, shirtless sequined vests, and exposed breasts?





smmrfld said:


> Umm...you say that like it's a bad thing?


Having given serious thought and two Stoli martinis to the matter, I stand corrected, with apologies for my momentary lapse.


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## CrimsonWave (Sep 13, 2010)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Another factor to consider is the quality of the interlining. Although a polyamide bond can be adhered to any quality of interlining the result will be no better than the substrate. If the interlining is of poor quality it will shrink and weaken whether fused or not. There are some excellent ones made in Germany which would retail for $10-$12/yard. There are others which would retail for under $1.00/yard. However, you probably won't be able to find out what any particular firm uses.


Apologies for reviving and old thread, but Mr Kabbaz, could you please let us know what the name of the company in Germany that produces these interlinings? My shirtmaker is comfortable with me sourcing my own interlining.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm afraid you'll have to ask another world class bespoke shirtmaker somewhere. Mr. Kabbaz has been AWOL for half a year without explanation. :confused2:


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## CrimsonWave (Sep 13, 2010)

Whoops! Well I haven't been checking back on this forum for some time so I didn't notice. Thanks for letting me know Jovan!


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## jdemy (Aug 30, 2013)

Isn't there a third option between no lining and a fused lining? What about a cloth lining of some soft fabric?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You can have varying levels of softness with either two or a combination of both (such as a non-fused band with the collar piece fused or vice versa) but interfacing is still interfacing.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

jdemy said:


> Isn't there a third option between no lining and a fused lining? What about a cloth lining of some soft fabric?


The three options are sewn interfacing, fused interfacing and no interfacing. Both sewn and fused interfacings come in different weights. After wearing all kinds of shirts, I have come to prefer a somewhat stiffer sewn interfacing in my collar and cuffs.


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## softcollar (Oct 21, 2013)

On the subject of starching fused or unfused, I have been advised that fused materials should not be starched. Is this so? Is there any difference between using a starch from a spray can or adding natural starch to the wash? If starch should not be used at all, why not?


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

softcollar said:


> On the subject of starching fused or unfused, I have been advised that fused materials should not be starched. Is this so? Is there any difference between using a starch from a spray can or adding natural starch to the wash? If starch should not be used at all, why not?


Your user name makes this very ironic.

There are a lot of people who suggest that not starching your shirts at all is the best policy in terms of longevity.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If you must use it, make sure you're using natural wheat starch in the old fashioned method. It's much better than the glue-like substances being passed off as "starch" now, since those tend to just stick to your shirts and build up with every wash. I can attest to it, as when I first started out in nicer clothes I tried starching my shirt with one of those spray cans and it didn't come out for several washes.

I avoid the stuff altogether in any case, it's much more comfortable.


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## softcollar (Oct 21, 2013)

Many thanks for those speedy comments on my original post. The query arose because of my recent need for a replacement dress shirt for wear with white tie; I was told the traditional "boiled" shirt with a stiff bib front was not available. I was offered a similar looking dress shirt with a fused bib front. The supplier said it was machine washable (good), but should not be starched (bad). Such bib fronted shirts are traditionally heavily starched, usually by a laundry, resulting in a smooth finish, and with starched single cuffs. I am puzzled why starch, especially traditional water soluble starch, should be advised against. I am minded to ignore their advice and to starch it. If it can be put in a washing machine I do not understand what damage starch can do. Of course I am wearing a traditional starched wing collar with it, attached with collar studs, which is professionally laundered.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Again, it's fine if you use traditional wheat starch. It will wash out and not break down the fibres like a synthetic starch will. They might be thinking of synthetic starch, which almost everyone and every average cleaner uses now.

https://www.ravefabricare.com/true-...hy-your-light-starched-shirts-feel-stiff.aspx

White tie attire, eh? You're better off getting a quality cleaner in your area (which there are in London for sure) to launder the shirt and detachable collar. I have trouble just getting my pleated front shirts smooth. The fused front seems quite common now, but I don't know its advantages versus a traditional boiled shirt besides that they can be laundered at home. Are you looking at Darcy Clothing?


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## softcollar (Oct 21, 2013)

Thanks for another quick reply. And thanks for the link to Rave. Yes the shirt did come from Darcy. Normally I would send such things to be professionally laundered, but if it is machine washable that should be unnecessary. Such shirts cost about 70 GB pounds nowadays and I do not want to wreck it. I understand Darcy import them from Austria, where I expect white tie is more common today than it is in The States or England.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

More common than in England? Well, so much for Austria being the socialist state Mr. Schwarzenegger once accused it of being! I assume you're getting this shirt?



True, the fused bib will make it easier to launder at home which is the main selling point. If it were me, I'd wash the shirt once before you wear it and see how you like it pressed by not starched. That will also have the advantage of getting some of the shrinkage out before you wear it out to your event.


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## softcollar (Oct 21, 2013)

Jovan said:


> More common than in England? Well, so much for Austria being the socialist state Mr. Schwarzenegger once accused it of being!


The extent of Austrian white tie balls can be found here https://issuu.com/ballguide/docs/dc-2012-01-english In only five out of the 26 principal balls listed are gentlemen not invited to wear tails (although usually more informal dress is accepted if not in possession of white tie)


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

I have a few shirts from William Pennington that have the option of a very stiff heavy interlining for the fusing. These collars, cuffs and plackets are so straight and stiff (but still comfortable thanks to a well made collar band), that I think starch would be superfluous. They make Tuxedo shirts MTM and are based in Australia, but the packages come from Thailand.


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## softcollar (Oct 21, 2013)

Well, I didn't use starch on my fused shirt front and, despite my earlier misgivings, it seemed fine. We had a great evening. But I still don't understand why starch is advised against on fused materials. With natural starch all you have to do is immerse the item in water and it should dissolve away. I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of comfort for smartness.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Again -- and I could be wrong here -- I really do think it's just a guard against the synthetic starches that cleaners and most people at home use for their dress shirts now. Keep in mind though I'm not the biggest proponent of starch except when absolutely necessary. I avoid the stuff as much as possible. Call me crazy, but even on pleated front shirts they look better to me with their bib left soft.


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