# White tie tips and tricks?



## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

For the last six months I've been assembling my white tie ensemble for an event in March. The last of the items, the Brooks Brothers white formal vest, should be arriving in early February. I think I have everything covered, but i keep thinking I may have missed something, given this is my first time going this formal. Any gotchas I should watch out for?


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm not sure how obvious this is, but one thing that a lot of people get 'wrong' is that the bottom of the waistcoat should not show beneath the coat front. You probably know that but I've seen it done wrong a lot recently, even in Television and film dramas where the wardrobe dept. ought to be experts, to the extent that I begin to wonder whether it is actually a 'rule' or not. Either way, it looks a lot better when the coat front is cut lower than the waistcoat.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

I'm hoping the length of my waistcoat/coat works out properly, but I won't know for certain until my waistcoat arrives in 1-2 weeks. I'm also waiting on a taller detachable collar from your side of the Atlantic. I've been pleasantly surprised with the recent improvement in shipping times from the UK to the US so I shouldn't have to wait long to see how the different height collars stack up.


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

+1 on the waistcoat/coat front relationship. It can ruin an otherwise well put together outfit. Where have you sourced the shirt/suit/studs/etc.?


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

The shirt is the Brooks Brothers Detachable Collar shirt, the studs are my grandfathers. Shoes are Ralph Lauren Purple Label made by Edward Green.


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## Marcellionheart (Mar 10, 2010)

Don't forget your top hat.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Salieri said:


> I begin to wonder whether it is actually a 'rule' or not. Either way, it looks a lot better when the coat front is cut lower than the waistcoat.


It's not a rule, but was widely copied when introduced by the Duke of Windsor when he was Prince of Wales in the early nineteen-twenties.

Astaire makes particular mention of it in his autobiography:



> Several nights later, the Prince of Wales again appeared at our theatre. This time he sent his equerry, Major Metcalfe, around between the acts to say that H.R.H. would like us to join him and his party for supper after the show at the Riviera Club. We were knocked cold, of course, and accepted, but it made us both mighty nervous for the rest of the performance.
> ...
> 
> All this time I was taking special notice of how he was dressed -impeccably in tails. H.R.H. was unquestionably the best-dressed young man in the world, and I was missing none of it. I noticed particularly the white waistcoat lapels-his own special type. *This waistcoat did not show below the dress coat front. I liked that.*
> I heard that Hawes and Curtis made the Prince's dress shirts and waistcoats. Next morning I was there and asked if I oould get a waistcoat like H.R.H.'s. I was apologetically told that it could not be done. So I went somewhere else and had one made like it.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Marcellionheart said:


> Don't forget your top hat.


...and cane as well. :icon_smile:


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

heheh... I'm going to pass on the top hat and cane. I'm admittedly over the top, but there are limits


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Finian McLonergan said:


> It's not a rule, but was widely copied when introduced by the Duke of Windsor when he was Prince of Wales in the early nineteen-twenties.


It was the case before the DoW and there are plenty of Victorian pictorals to prove it... As far as I can see it is a 'rule' and it makes logical sense. To have the waistcoat peek out the bottom creates untidiness because there are two different lines competing with each other: the hem of the waistcoat and the fronts of the bodycoat which are most often at different angles from one another. Then, the white sections on the sides creates a line across the waist which breaks the overall balance of the body shape and simplicity of the white centre of the whole ensemble.

The only time when the waistcoat is allowed to peek below is if the bodycoat buttons up fully (this can be seen on the bodycoats of equestrianist who always wear the bodycoat buttoned up as per Regency style).

1. Standard correct form
2. Slight peekage
3. More peekage
4. Peekage with waistcoat hem and bodycoat fronts at different angles
5. Greater peekage
6. Fully buttoned bodycoat with straight hem waistcoat
7. Fully buttoned bodycoat with pointed hem waistcoat


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Cheviot said:


> heheh... I'm going to pass on the top hat and cane. I'm admittedly over the top, but there are limits


Toppers and canes are not really essential nowadays (personally for me, I would not go out the house in full white tie without a topper as I would feel my stature would be too short).


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Also, final advice about waistcoats: you may get everything in the ensemble OTR or vintage but try and get the waistcoat made-up specially. All of the OTR waistcoats I have seen are of the same pattern, namely SB 3B shawl lapel with sqaure ends. This style is slowly entering the realms of the Ascot (or, more correctly, what passes off for it) for morning dress as it is been done to death by hire shops and retailers alike and IMHO quite boring. A good evening waistcoat cut in a different pattern makes all the difference and when people looks at your waistcoat they know it isn't OTR or hired.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Toppers and canes are not really essential nowadays (personally for me, I would not go out the house in full white tie without a topper as I would feel my stature would be too short).


Aside from the cost involved I don't think I'd be comfortable in a top hat. Regardless, I'll be staying at the hotel where the event takes place, so outerwear is off the table this time.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Anyone have suggestions with regard to the height of my collar? I have a 1 1/2" high collar and I'm waiting for a 2 1/4" to arrive.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> It was the case before the DoW and there are plenty of Victorian pictorals to prove it... As far as I can see it is a 'rule' and it makes logical sense. To have the waistcoat peek out the bottom creates untidiness because there are two different lines competing with each other: the hem of the waistcoat and the fronts of the bodycoat which are most often at different angles from one another. Then, the white sections on the sides creates a line across the waist which breaks the overall balance of the body shape and simplicity of the white centre of the whole ensemble.


I agree with your logic, and you may well be correct about this "rule" as you put it, but I would have to see it documented as such in a text contemporaneous with the era, i.e. pre-1920, before I would accept it. Perhaps the sartorial archaeologists at the Cutter and Tailor forum could oblige. If it were so ubiquitous back then, I find it curious that Astaire would have found the POW's use of it in 1923 worthy of special mention.

The American couturier Bob Mackie has some wise words to say on the subject, which echo your own:



> I learned from him [Astaire] a little lesson that I always remember: When you see people in tails and a waistcoat, if the white hangs down under the black jacket you know they have really ruined the line of the whole outfit. Fred Astaire always wore his waistcoat very high, and the jacket would just cover the white, which of course made his legs go on forever.
> 
> Nowadays when I see someone with the white showing below, I realize that it makes you look fatter and cuts you off around the middle, and it makes your legs look short. Not that Fred ever had to worry about looking fat. That was just a rule he had always known. If you watch films from the thirties, tails were always like that, but later on tails became an obsolete thing, and people didn't know how to wear them properly. That was a little lesson that he taught me, and it stayed with me. People hate me because I insist that the black jacket should cover the white waistcoat by at least half an inch, so that even if they raise their arm they have a little leeway there.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Cheviot said:


> Aside from the cost involved I don't think I'd be comfortable in a top hat. Regardless, I'll be staying at the hotel where the event takes place, so outerwear is off the table this time.


I recently purchased this (Speer top hat from Bailey of Hollywood) for $55. Ships UPS ground from a hat shop in Reading, showed up next day, and is absolutely excellent.


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## Dennis V. (Apr 20, 2010)

May I suggest adding a white linen pocket square and a white or red boutoniere. (I'd go for a red carnation)
You would need a working lapel buttonhole and a stem loop for that, but those are not difficult things to do if they aren't done already. Don't just pin it to the lapel.
Maybe changing the waistcoat buttons for studs would be a nice touch too.
Don't wear a wristwatch, if you have to have a watch with you you could use a pocket watch, but I'd suggest not having a watch at all, I would not think time will be of the essence.
If you're going to use formal white gloves, they do not have to come off indoors, as I understand it.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

I have a linen pocket square on the way. Unfortunately my tail coat doesn't have a lapel buttonhole. I just got a pair of white buckskin gloves, but as I'm staying at the hotel where the event is occurring I won't be wearing them. I'll have to see about swapping out the waistcoat buttons for studs once it arrives, but my budget is getting a bit strained.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> I recently purchased this (Speer top hat from Bailey of Hollywood) for $55. Ships UPS ground from a hat shop in Reading, showed up next day, and is absolutely excellent.


That is not a _real_ top hat...


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Cheviot said:


> Anyone have suggestions with regard to the height of my collar? I have a 1 1/2" high collar and I'm waiting for a 2 1/4" to arrive.


The 2 1/4" is ideal. A collar too low is a pitiful thing...

If your lapel does not have a buttonhole, don't pin a flower on it as it will destroy the silk facing. Instead you could put a few stitches on the corner of the collar and the upper edge of the lapel then insert the flower in the gap between the collar and the lapel.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> The 2 1/4" is ideal. A collar too low is a pitiful thing...


 That was my feeling on ordering the taller collar. Had to order from London, but the shipping wasn't too dear. No one here in the States seems to sell high collars.

I'll look into attaching a boutonniere in the way you suggest.


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## Penang Lawyer (May 27, 2008)

The Brooks waistcoat is adjustible from the top (had one in the 50's) If you will be dancing then you should wear white gloves. That hat pictured looks like a clowns hat. Did you try Budd in London for collars?


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## Penang Lawyer (May 27, 2008)

Hope you are wearing Opera Pumps.


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## Dennis V. (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree that 2 1/4" is probably the best choice, people with relatively long necks could opt for taller ones, I'd probably go for 2 1/2" for myself.

And that hat in the link from TheGreatTwizz I also wouldn't consider a top hat, but it does look like a hat I think I saw Winston Churchill wear in a documentary, the hat confused me a lot, since the crown was too rounded to be a top hat, and too square to be a bowler. And he wore it with a business suit. I like tophats that flare out at the top with nice slightly concave sides. Top hats with almost straight sides just don't do it for me.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Penang Lawyer said:


> Hope you are wearing Opera Pumps.


Yes, I have a pair of Ralph Lauren opera pumps made by Edward Green.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Once I have everything put together I'll have to have a friend take some pictures for your consideration.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> That is not a _real_ top hat...


Please do educate me. Formal wear is to become a regular thing for me, and I'd like it absolutely correct. What makes this not a _real_ top hat?


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Silk top hats are no longer manufactured and have to be acquired second hand/refurbished. If you have an unusually small head you can find them at auction for as little as €50 but medium and large sizes in good condition are very expensive. Really good ones can and do cost thousands.

https://www.lockhatters.co.uk/Top_Hats___Coke__Bowler_-Silk_Top_Hat-P105.aspx


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## Dennis V. (Apr 20, 2010)

What my issue is with considering this hat a top hat is not so much the material, Top hats can be made out of materials other then silk, even though silk is the preferred material. The model is what I find at least unusual, it looks to me like the top of the crown is smaller in diameter than the bottom of the crown, they should at least be equal in diameter, and preferably wider at the top than at the bottom.
The edge of the crown to the top should be a hard edge in my opinion, not rounded.
I actually wouldn't mind a wool felt top hat, it seems like the top hat to wear to rememberance ceremonies and funerals, since that would mean you don't have to use the mourning band.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Looking forward to seeing this.


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

Not to steal OP's thunder, but sometime last month or so, I had the opportunity to wear white tie. I just have the one picture; sorry for the poor quality.
The shirt is a NOS Arrow Sanforized shirt from back in the day. It opens from the back and not at all in the front. The collar is the standard Brooks Brothers wing collar (I'd get something higher, but it wouldn't flatter my thick neck so well). The vest is from the Tuxxman on eBay, as is the tie. The suit itself is the pièce de résistance: made in 1940 by a Pennsylvania tailor. You can just make out the forward pleats on the trousers. Not pictured, BB frenchbacks. The wool is very heavy and the pants are unlined, so they worked out very well.

inb4 no shoes, sleeves too long, etc.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dennis V. said:


> I agree that 2 1/4" is probably the best choice, people with relatively long necks could opt for taller ones, I'd probably go for 2 1/2" for myself.
> 
> And that hat in the link from TheGreatTwizz I also wouldn't consider a top hat, but it does look like a hat I think I saw Winston Churchill wear in a documentary, the hat confused me a lot, since the crown was too rounded to be a top hat, and too square to be a bowler. And he wore it with a business suit. I like tophats that flare out at the top with nice slightly concave sides. Top hats with almost straight sides just don't do it for me.


Churchill wore what is called a 'Cambridge bowler'. Basically a normal bowler but with a flatter crown. It is also what Oddjob wore in Goldfinger.

One of the main things that make the hat in that link not a topper is the fact that there's some weird cockade attached/inserted to the side of the crown. Even if it wasn't there it would still look fancy dress like and as someone said, a wool or flat fur felt one is more suited to funerals or even livery.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dennis V. said:


> The model is what I find at least unusual, it looks to me like the top of the crown is smaller in diameter than the bottom of the crown, they should at least be equal in diameter, and preferably wider at the top than at the bottom.


Actually, I have seen a silk topper with the crown diametre smaller than the bottom on eBay (by Dunn & Co.). There are different crown shapes in the past, not just the bog standard bell.


























The shape of this one is vaguely similar to the one in the link we were discussing but notice how sharp it is compared. The brim curl is just amazingly done. I really wanted to bid on this one but had no funds at the time (went for £87, plus, I've got plenty of toppers already!)


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Benjamin E. said:


> Not to steal OP's thunder, but sometime last month or so, I had the opportunity to wear white tie. I just have the one picture; sorry for the poor quality.
> The shirt is a NOS Arrow Sanforized shirt from back in the day. It opens from the back and not at all in the front. The collar is the standard Brooks Brothers wing collar (I'd get something higher, but it wouldn't flatter my thick neck so well). The vest is from the Tuxxman on eBay, as is the tie. The suit itself is the pièce de résistance: made in 1940 by a Pennsylvania tailor. You can just make out the forward pleats on the trousers. Not pictured, BB frenchbacks. The wool is very heavy and the pants are unlined, so they worked out very well.
> 
> inb4 no shoes, sleeves too long, etc.


The proportions are good and the coat, vest and trousers agree with each other. As you say sleeves too long and I would also say that the trousers need to be shortened (are you wearing braces with them in this photo?)


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

There are two people in this thread who appear to be going to white tie functions this year. May I enquire what these functions are? To be honest, I thought white tie was really only for state banquets these days.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Me being in England, there are plenty of white tie events. You need to know where to look though. I am a member of a club that focuses on vintage traditions and ideals and we have a big party twice a year where you can wear white tie. In fact, you could wear white tie to pretty much any of the club's parties and events and could virtually wear it once a month if you choose to do so!


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

My event is a charity ball, planned specifically to create a new annual white tie event.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

MikeDT said:


> To be honest, I thought white tie was really only for state banquets these days.


Any participants in competitive ballroom dancing, whether amateur or professional, or classical music performers, whether solo or orchestral, will have at least one full evening dress (white tie and tails) which they don regularly.

The other accoutrements: top hat, cane, opera cloak etc. are pretty much obsolete.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Me being in England, there are plenty of white tie events. You need to know where to look though. I am a member of a club that focuses on vintage traditions and ideals and we have a big party twice a year where you can wear white tie. In fact, you could wear white tie to pretty much any of the club's parties and events and could virtually wear it once a month if you choose to do so!


Much as I hate to disagree with the normally excellent advice of Mr. CC, I have a troubling suspicion that this might be part of the 'eccentric' chap counterculture, which I think would not appeal to a lot of members here. I honestly don't mean to cast any aspersions at all, rather simply to dispel any image that you might get of a mythical Britain where where there are 'plenty of white tie events' at which you could be confident that nobody would appear in a pith helmet and monocle. Besides that, you're more likely to see it at _some _university balls, a few evening weddings, competetive dancing, and exceptionally high society balls.

Sorry Charlie, I _honestly _don't mean to be rude. I would take more opportunities to wear white tie myself if I were more affable in company and could be bothered getting my collars laundered.


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> The proportions are good and the coat, vest and trousers agree with each other. As you say sleeves too long and I would also say that the trousers need to be shortened (are you wearing braces with them in this photo?)


I am indeed wearing braces, but, as I said before I'm not wearing shoes. The facings also need to be replaced as they're pure silk and very fragile and already torn in places. Also, I'd like to replace the buttons with 2 hole horn buttons. Do you (or anyone else) know where I can find some for cheap online?


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Salieri said:


> Besides that, you're more likely to see it at _some _university balls...


Which is still rather impressive, anyway. My college had "formal" dances for the dorms or a Senior Formal, where a few wore suits, but most donned a sport coat, khakis, and a tie-- usually loosely hanging about their neck. I had to lend my roommates a tie on more than one occasion. My girlfriend at the time was from a nearby all-girls' college, and when she was the chair of their all-school formal, even she felt like a tuxedo would be too much, despite nearly every girl there wearing a formal dress (at least something you'd see at the prom, and probably kept from those days). When my own Senior Formal came around, I wore black tie anyway, and received compliments from everyone. Hmm, I wonder why?

Sorry for the diversion. Still, I've only worn white tie once, and would love to have more opportunities to do so, so I'm jealous of you all.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

There are plenty of white tie events in the UK. Less so in the US: charity balls, debutante events, and the like, usually.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> One of the main things that make the hat in that link not a topper is the fact that there's some weird cockade attached/inserted to the side of the crown. Even if it wasn't there it would still look fancy dress like and as someone said, a wool or flat fur felt one is more suited to funerals or even livery.


There is a slit on the left hand side with a small black silk handkerchief folded to a point sticking out.

I would much prefer a vintage silk hat (we have one used by the WM at my lodge, it is a vintage one made by a firm from Jermyn St, I'll note the name next time I look), but I was a bit pressed for time, and this seemed like a suitable alternative for a black tie optional event where most show up in business suits.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Me being in England, there are plenty of white tie events.* You need to know where to look though.* I am a member of a club that focuses on vintage traditions and ideals and we have a big party twice a year where you can wear white tie. In fact, you could wear white tie to pretty much any of the club's parties and events and could virtually wear it once a month if you choose to do so!


I couldn't recall of seeing or hearing of any white tie required events in my home city of Bristol. I fact the only ones I really know of is the Lord Mayor of London's Mansion House banquets and other state dinners.

Of course it goes without saying that these things do not happen in rural northern China where I currently live, or for that matter anywhere in the PRC.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

By the way... this hasn't come up yet and I can't find any mentions but I would assume, like with black tie, that grosgrain lapel facings are preferred to satin. Is this correct?


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Cheviot said:


> By the way... this hasn't come up yet and I can't find any mentions but I would assume, like with black tie, that grosgrain lapel facings are preferred to satin. Is this correct?


Of course. Grosgrain is less shiny, so it's less theatrical and costumey. It's preferred especially in dress coats.

Best regards, Dr


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Dr Kilroy said:


> Of course. Grosgrain is less shiny, so it's less theatrical and costumey. It's preferred especially in dress coats.


As I said, I assumed. It just seemed odd that it's not mentioned more. Almost any time a dinner jacket is mentioned they speak about the lapel facings, not as much with tailcoats.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Cheviot said:


> As I said, I assumed. It just seemed odd that it's not mentioned more. Almost any time a dinner jacket is mentioned they speak about the lapel facings, not as much with tailcoats.


Maybe it's just too obvious for some. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

MikeDT said:


> I couldn't recall of seeing or hearing of any white tie required events in my home city of Bristol. I fact the only ones I really know of is the Lord Mayor of London's Mansion House banquets and other state dinners.
> 
> Of course it goes without saying that these things do not happen in rural northern China where I currently live, or for that matter anywhere in the PRC.


I certainly have attended a white tie event in Bristol (Well Clifton), I was of course wearing the kilt, Prince Charlie doublet and waistcoat and a black bow tie as black tie and not white is worn with the kilt or trews at white tie events (unless you are wearing a jacket where the jabot is worn instead). The hose change though.


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## Dennis V. (Apr 20, 2010)

@Cheviot

I didn't mention the grossgrain lapels because I never considered anyone would use satin instead. But since rental companies get things wrong more often than not, I suppose it would be good to mention it. I don't know if the lapel shape has been mentioned, but that should also be peak lapels.

Satin in my opinion is a less formal option for black tie only, white tie should always have grossgrain lapels. My own dinner jacket has a shawl collar, has satin lapels and is converted into double breasted, so all the less formal options combined.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Dennis V. said:


> I don't know if the lapel shape has been mentioned, but that should also be peak lapels.


Shawl lapel dress coats are also a very nice option in my opinion! 

Best regards, Dr


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Dr Kilroy said:


> Shawl lapel dress coats are also a very nice option in my opinion!
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Indeed!

George Grossmith: Comic Baritone, Novelist, Hero.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> I certainly have attended a white tie event in Bristol (Well Clifton), I was of course wearing the kilt, Prince Charlie doublet and waistcoat and a black bow tie as black tie and not white is worn with the kilt or trews at white tie events (unless you are wearing a jacket where the jabot is worn instead). The hose change though.


I disagree. Proper white tie (other than doublet and jabot) is a white bow tie worn with the regulation doublet. PC is correct at black tie events.

Taking a step back, I believe the Scottish - Anglo codes got skewed somewhere. Really, the Argyll / Crail should be worn with black tie (a la dinner jacket) and the Prince Charlie, with its short tails, should be worn with white tie. Despite the logic of that, convention nevertheless reigns.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Grosgrain and satin are equally correct. The satin of nowadays is very different from old satin which is much more shiny. You could also use silk barathea and other types of silk weave. Do not restrict yourself to only one option.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

DougNZ said:


> I disagree. Proper white tie (other than doublet and jabot) is a white bow tie worn with the regulation doublet. PC is correct at black tie events.
> 
> Taking a step back, I believe the Scottish - Anglo codes got skewed somewhere. Really, the Argyll / Crail should be worn with black tie (a la dinner jacket) and the Prince Charlie, with its short tails, should be worn with white tie. Despite the logic of that, convention nevertheless reigns.


It's actually a Regulation wore I just simplified, but a white tie is not worn AFAIK, Argyll PC or regulation can go with black tie, but PC, Regulation, Montrose, Kenmore and Sherrifmuir can go with white tie. Crail is walking out or daywear surely. My dad wore kilt and Crail to a Royal garden party at Hollyroodhouse, an official complimented him on being correctly dressed not just acceptably dressed.

As to tie colour wiki says both are acceptable, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_tie and black tie guide says white is not traditional https://www.blacktieguide.com/Supplemental/Scottish.htm as doe Kinloch Anderson who also point out no Scottish kilt retailer sell white ties or white waistcoats.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

MikeDT said:


> There are two people in this thread who appear to be going to white tie functions this year. May I enquire what these functions are? To be honest, I thought white tie was really only for state banquets these days.


See photos in the White Tie in America thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?104510-White-Tie-in-America


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*To Top or Not to Top?*

It is no longer essential to wear a top hat with tails, as it is seldom necessary to be out of doors for any significant period of time. White tie is unlikely for outdoor events in any case. Besides, when wearing a top coat, others can't see that one is dressed in a tailcoat, anyway, so it really doesn't make that much difference what hat is worn, if it's really as cold as all that. Putting on a top hat to impress the valets for the five minutes it takes to get into a venue is a little precious, IMO. That is especially true if, as mentioned above, silk top hats are no longer made. If you are sitting on the dais during a presidential inaugural and you are wearing morning dress, then a top hat would be proper. But we're talking night time events, aren't we?

Second the waistcoat not showing below the coat's front line. That's what the adjustment rig at the collar is for - to get the length right.

Studs and cufflinks (and waistcoat's buttons, if it's made for them) should be white or at most smoky MOP or plain metal. I prefer gold, but a lot of Forumites can't abide it, and many antique sets are white metal with MOP.

I hope that you have secured a self-tied white piquet tie. Brooks on line does not show one available in either a self- or pre-tied version. Rather an anomaly, since they carry everything else on line for white tie except the white tie itself:icon_scratch:

I've asked about that and will post whatever response I get. That may not be until Thursday, as the cataloguers went home about five minutes ago and anticipate that they may not be able to get in to work tomorrow because of the on-coming snow storm


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Brooks does have a self-tie white pique tie, but it only shows up as a suggestion on other product pages. Must be an error on the site. I have a self tie and a pre-tied as backup. 

I tend to get panicy about getting my tie tied properly. So I always start way too early. Then it all works out and I'm left fully dressed far too early. Hopefully having a backup will let me relax and just wait until a more appropriate time to start getting ready.

I'm wearing gold cufflinks and studs. I'll be skipping the top hat. If I did wear one I'd want silk... and thats outside my price range.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

Cheviot said:


> Brooks does have a self-tie white pique tie, but it only shows up as a suggestion on other product pages. Must be an error on the site. I have a self tie and a pre-tied as backup.


That's interesting. I didn't even see a suggestion, and I checked out all the white tie items. I'll be interested to hear what BB has to say.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Blueboy1938 said:


> That's interesting. I didn't even see a suggestion, and I checked out all the white tie items. I'll be interested to hear what BB has to say.


I had it bookmarked.

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...nt_Id=202&sort_by=&sectioncolor=&sectionsize=

But its gone.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Bog said:


> See photos in the White Tie in America thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?104510-White-Tie-in-America


Ah big US metropolitan cities, NYC, NYC, NYC, SF and NYC. Perhaps that's why I've never come across any white tie functions myself, having spent most of my life in Bristol, UK and now China.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

The UK view:


LondonFogey said:


> White tie now seems to be reserved for Oxbridge/Ivory Tower university balls, some public school events, various masonic and semi-masonic societies, dining clubs etc, state/diplomatic functions, military 'full regimental' functions (where the civvies would wear white tie) and the occasional big charity or club ball, although a lot of these seem to be 'white or black tie'.


The US view:


Blackadder said:


> I can only speak for New York by experience and London by observation over a very long number of years. In NYC, WT is really reserved only for the ancestral balls and opera societies, the latter of which are especially proud of their sartorial codes and traditions (or pretensions, I leave that to you). I've never encountered it at a charity function here with a non-social connection -- except where it's part of the "theme". (The exception that proves the rule is the Alfred E. Smith dinner, and the absence of tribe affiliation is debateable.)





Blackadder said:


> To my knowledge, the Met doesn't demand a dress code for Opening Night, but almost everyone is in black-tie. The Metropolitan Opera Club is a century-old independent social organisation that maintains boxes about four nights a week and a clubroom within the Met. The Club's evening dress code is always black-tie, except certain Mondays, premieres and galas when white-tie is requested and most members comply. Next time you're at the Met, unless it's a Saturday, take a look up at the dress circle to the right of the stage and you'll most likely see its superannuated membership.


The New Zealand view:


DougNZ said:


> I find that there are few events at which to wear black tie, let alone white. Sadly, even those events where white tie is appropriate tend to be 'costume', such as Art Deco weekend or the like. I have also found that in many societies exist groups of friends who like to meet and often do so in various levels of formal attire. Amongst these groups, a mix of white tie, black tie and smoking jackets at a dinner is seen as fun and little more is said of it. These people often also make up a large proportion of the people in a city owning formal clothes but the danger is when such people step outside their circles and insist on wearing their rigs 'because they can'. Sometimes they look cool, sometimes they look silly and sometimes they cause embarrasment to those around them.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Top hats: simply get an opera hat (satin, grosgrain or cloth). Can easily be folded and carried and stowed away. eBay has a few from time to time. 

High silk is really for the day time when you're mostly outside.


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Top hats: simply get an opera hat (satin, grosgrain or cloth). Can easily be folded and carried and stowed away.


I agree, though I had previously purchased a non-collapsible satin version. No characteristic bell shape to it, but it still looks great, and wouldn't go without it.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you Bog for an excellent summing up.

_White tie now seems to be reserved for Oxbridge/Ivory Tower university balls, some public school events, various masonic and semi-masonic societies, dining clubs etc, state/diplomatic functions,_

I'm British but, I've not had Oxbridge education, never went to public school, I'm not a freemason and nor do I know any diplomats. This is probably why I've never seen or been invited to a white tie function.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

GrumF14 said:


> I agree, though I had previously purchased a non-collapsible satin version. No characteristic bell shape to it, but it still looks great, and wouldn't go without it.


Personally, I do not like non-collapsible satin toppers. It is like a topper with an identity crisis...


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

MikeDT said:


> Ah big US metropolitan cities, NYC, NYC, NYC, SF and NYC. Perhaps that's why I've never come across any white tie functions myself, having spent most of my life in Bristol, UK and now China.


There's also Washington, DC: the Gridiron dinner is white tie. There are usually a few white tie state dinners during each Presidential administration. And there are numerous Viennese waltz balls that are white tie/black tie.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

My self-tie pique bowtie and 2 1/4 inch tall collar arrived today. Now all that remains is the vest... and a better tailcoat I just found is coming in via priority mail. It's all coming together now.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*RE: Availability of BB white tie.*

Their customer service said white formal piquet ties are not currently available online, but they are in some stores, Madison Avenue for one. The suggestion was to call whatever store is nearest you and order one. The only reason this is important to know is if you have or intend to acquire the BB piquet shirt and waistcoat. Getting the tie from the same source is the only way to ensure a match.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Thank you for investigating for me.


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Personally, I do not like non-collapsible satin toppers. It is like a topper with an identity crisis...


Nor do I, but it seemed silly to reject one as a gift, even if I would have rather than collapsible. But it's not as though you can find someone to trade it...


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

According to my previous posts; I found the source of wearing spats with evening dress:










The second sentence. The paragraph was about tails, of course.

This page was found on The Fedora Lounge:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/sho...Fashions-of-the-Turbulent-1930s-Men-s-Chapter

Best regards, Dr


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

I just searched the thread and can't find this mentioned. I just got a beautiful vintage tailcoat. Wool, fully canvased, grosgrain peak lapels, but the buttons... they are neither grosgrain covered nor bone. They look almost like plastic. I'm planning to replace those with grosgrain covered button when I get the sleeves shortened unless there's a better alternative.

My other question is about the length of the tails. Is there some standard for the length? This jacket is 51" from collar to the tip of the tails and to my eye they appear a bit long.


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

The buttons could be resin, as on suit buttons, or horn-- which can look plastic depending on the finish. Maybe the ones I've seen have, and I could otherwise be wrong. Both cloth-covered buttons and natural materials (horn, bone, etc) have been used on tailcoats of varying vintage, with equal correctness.

As far as tail length, I believe this is a matter of personal preference, but that the standard length is to the break point in the back of the knee. Posters here (such as Sator), and from The Fedora Lounge, no doubt, will point out longer or shorter tail lengths as being considered de rigeur in different decades between the 20s/30s, 40s, and 50s/60s. Different wearers, even on this forum, have their own personal preferences as well. On the whole, the "standard", if it may be called that, is that knee length. It would be difficult to answer your question, therefore, without knowing the length of your knee and your personal preferences.

I can be wrong on either of these points, and I defer to the more knowledgeable members to correct any of my errors.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Given that I don't like the look of the buttons, and the low cost to replace them I think I'll put in an order for the cloth covered buttons.

These tails are far longer than knee length, falling at mid-calf. Odd as the waist falls at the roughly the correct spot. Perhaps it was fitted for a taller, short-waisted man. As I have to have the sleeves taken in and shoulders narrowed slightly I'll talk with my tailor about shortening the tails as well.


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## Chasseur (Apr 1, 2010)

I have a set of evening tails from the 1950s (US made) that have tails of about that length as well. Its a beautiful set, high waisted trousers, great waist suppression/nipped waist on the jacket, etc. But the tails are super long past the knees.


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## Dennis V. (Apr 20, 2010)

My white tie coat also extends to beyond my knees, while the waist is at the correct level, perhaps that was in fashion in the 1950's, my set was made in march 1955 in the Netherlands. It is also made out of heavy material, expecially the grossgrain is very thick. It also has plain plastic buttons I will replace by grossgrain covered ones when I have a chance.

I actually like the long tails and will most likely keep them they way they are.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Dennis V. said:


> My white tie coat also extends to beyond my knees, while the waist is at the correct level, perhaps that was in fashion in the 1950's, my set was made in march 1955 in the Netherlands. It is also made out of heavy material, expecially the grossgrain is very thick. It also has plain plastic buttons I will replace by grossgrain covered ones when I have a chance.


Your coat sounds very much like mine, right down to the thick fabric and grosgrain and plastic buttons. Mine was made in March of 1961 on Conduit Street in London.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Jacket goes out for alterations on Wednesday, but I'm getting worried about my vest. I ordered it from Brooks Brothers 3 weeks ago. Almost immediately the ship date was bumped to 2/4 then to 2/12 and today to 2/19. Do they know what they're doing at BB?


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dr Kilroy said:


> According to my previous posts; I found the source of wearing spats with evening dress:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, but are there any other sources stating the same, especially pictorial? One swallow does not a summer make...


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Okay, but are there any other sources stating the same, especially pictorial? One swallow does not a summer make...


I agree, but this is the only source, the one that gave me this information about wearing spats with evening dress. Nevertheless, in my opinion, such an information wouldn't be included there if there weren't any cases of wearing spats with white tie.

But, my only choice of footwear for white tie is pumps, so spats are inappropriate.

Best regards, Dr


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dr Kilroy said:


> I agree, but this is the only source, the one that gave me this information about wearing spats with evening dress. Nevertheless, in my opinion, such an information wouldn't be included there if there weren't any cases of wearing spats with white tie.
> 
> But, my only choice of footwear for white tie is pumps, so spats are inappropriate.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Indeed.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Jacket is off being altered and my vest has shipped from the Madison Ave. Brooks Brothers. Anyone know a good source of pre-made grosgrain buttons? I need 8 each of 20L and 30L. The only place I can find that sells them online only has 24L and 30L... and a $25 minimum order.


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

You may not consider this at all helpful but I much prefer dyed horn to covered buttons. Covered buttons always rather remind me of upholstery and personally I think polished horn looks great under lights. By way of backing myself up, I've bought and sold a fair number of dress suits in the past and without exception all the ones we've found from top tailors like Anderson & Sheppard and Welsh & Jeffries have not had covered buttons.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Salieri said:


> You may not consider this at all helpful but I much prefer dyed horn to covered buttons. Covered buttons always rather remind me of upholstery and personally I think polished horn looks great under lights. By way of backing myself up, I've bought and sold a fair number of dress suits in the past and without exception all the ones we've found from top tailors like Anderson & Sheppard and Welsh & Jeffries have not had covered buttons.


I'd certainly be willing to entertain the idea of horn buttons. Any good sources out there?


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Cheviot said:


> I'd certainly be willing to entertain the idea of horn buttons. Any good sources out there?


Well, that's where my unhelpfulness really comes in to it's own: _I have no idea_. I just thought it worth chipping in in case that was what was already on the coat. I can never even get hold of ordinary horn buttons.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Salieri said:


> Well, that's where my unhelpfulness really comes in to it's own: _I have no idea_. I just thought it worth chipping in in case that was what was already on the coat. I can never even get hold of ordinary horn buttons.


I have been looking via google since I read your recommendation, but all I can find are decorative or novelty buttons... or one of a kind finds on ebay.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Cheviot said:


> Jacket is off being altered and my vest has shipped from the Madison Ave. Brooks Brothers. Anyone know a good source of pre-made grosgrain buttons? I need 8 each of 20L and 30L. The only place I can find that sells them online only has 24L and 30L... and a $25 minimum order.


You'll want the black Cord Covered Buttons in 22L and 30L.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Bog said:


> You'll want the black Cord Covered Buttons.


Excellent! Thank you so much!


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

If you need to refurbish it any more, they have real silk facings (and cheaper synthetic facings also) as well as trouser braids.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Thank you, I'm tempted to pick up some grosgrain as it's practically unavailable in the States. Unfortunately their shipment charge to the US is about £25 just for the buttons I need.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Here is a US source for buttons:

https://www.bblackandsons.com/tuxedo-buttons-p-859.html
https://www.mjtrim.com/Catalog/Category/13.aspx

And trim and hardware:

https://www.bblackandsons.com/sewing-supplies-tuxedo-supplies-c-68_80_108.html

Edit: Satin buttons only, unfortunately.

You may want to call up Tender Button in NY and ask: https://www.yelp.com/biz/tender-buttons-new-york


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Cheviot said:


> Thank you, I'm tempted to pick up some grosgrain as it's practically unavailable in the States. Unfortunately their shipment charge to the US is about £25 just for the buttons I need.


White tie has always been a luxury item, if one is going to save money by getting a quality second hand coat, you can't go wrong finishing it with luxury trim.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

I was considering picking up a yard or two of grosgrain for future projects, the grosgrain facings on my jacket are in beautiful condition. I don't have a problem paying for the buttons I need. It's just paying 3-4 times the actual shipping charges that makes me pause. Their shipping charges to locations in the UK and even in Europe seem to be much more reasonable.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Richard James Weldon makes those cover silk grosgrain buttons so you're better off cutting out the middle man and buying direct.

As for horn buttons, TBH the modern ones made today are nothing like the rather elegant vintage ones. I would go for covered unless you find a good set of vintage black horn that has a domed back and a very thin rim and edge.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Richard James Weldon makes those cover silk grosgrain buttons so you're better off cutting out the middle man and buying direct.


Thank you, I've just emailed them to see if they can be of assistance. In other news my waistcoat has arrived, so aside from alterations and buttons, I should be set. I'll post some photos as soon as my tailcoat arrives back.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Richard James Weldon makes those cover silk grosgrain buttons so you're better off cutting out the middle man and buying direct.


Alas, they direct me to their American agent who charges three times the British price.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Even so, I've bitten the bullet. Now is not the time to be stingy.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Cheviot said:


> Alas, they direct me to their American agent who charges three times the British price.


Does it come out to more than the pricing at The Lining Company?


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Bog said:


> Does it come out to more than the pricing at The Lining Company?


More than a bit less expensive. I've placed the order.


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

Need an online source to purchase the double split braiding for my matching evening dress tails' trousers

I have a sample from Richard James Weldon...but am hoping for other sources

Same with black ribbed grossgrain...need help

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated

I also triple dog dare Cardcaptor Charlie or anyone to guide me in finding uncovered black and midnight blue horn buttons for my dress tails


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm afraid I only know of RJW when it comes to the buttons and braid.

As for the ribbed grosgrain, this place sells it cheaper (the silk is lighter and finer but it would do): https://www.fabrics.net/outlet/fabrics.asp?ProductType=Silk+Faille

As for vintage horn buttons, as I said, I don't really know. Your best bet would be to have a rummage at vintage button shops (don't ask me where to find them!) but your chances of getting a complete matching set are slim, unless you harvest them from an existing vintage tailcoat...


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

C.C.: thanks for the assistance
Is this ribbed grossgrain??? https://www.fabrics.net/outlet/Detail.asp?ProductID=4041


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Ay329 said:


> C.C.: thanks for the assistance
> Is this ribbed grossgrain??? https://www.fabrics.net/outlet/Detail.asp?ProductID=4041


Yes it is! Faille is just another name for a lighter version. Faille, grosgrain, ottoman in the scale of heaviness.


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

OK C.C....how much should I buy to make my lapels?


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

This is all sounding like it might end nicely. I hope results will be published here in photographic form.

I have a bit of a question about white tie and rather than make a whole new topic, I thought I might just muscle in here if nobody minds. It's about waistcoats...

Basically, I was wondering what people generally think about _other colours_. I know it sounds a horrible idea, so I should explain. In a few months (yes, quite a long time from now) I will be going to a white tie ball and I've done white tie a few times now, rolled out a couple of different marcella waistcoats, but I feel like I want to try something a bit different. I actually really like the look of a black waistcoat (eg. the picture of George Grossmith I posted a couple of pages ago) with white tie and I know that historically, and in some people's opinions, black is quite acceptable. HOWEVER, I have a vague intention to be even more experimental.

Over a year ago I bought a fantastic 1907 midnight blue velvet waistcoat edged with a fairly fancy black trim. The back of it is falling apart a bit but the front is in perfect condition, and it's very tight on me. Since buying it, I've always intended to have the back and lining completely replaced, with a little bit of extra room, but I've never really had occasion to do so. I have held my breath in it long enough to try it on with my evening suit and it does look amazing, BUT:

DO you think other people would think I was some kind of _'eccentric' _or, worse, think I didn't know what I was doing, if I wore it?


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Salieri said:


> This is all sounding like it might end nicely. I hope results will be published here in photographic form.


Will do! Just waiting for my jacket to return.



Salieri said:


> DO you think other people would think I was some kind of 'eccentric' or, worse, think I didn't know what I was doing, if I wore it?


It sounds like it's an amazing waistcoat, but my understanding is it's currently inappropriate for white tie wear. There was a time when white or black waistcoats were permissible, but that was a very long time ago.


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

If it was a black tie/tuxedo event, one can do no wrong in experimenting with a midnight velvet waistcoat...especially with a midnight velvet jacket

But the rules to white tie were quite rigid and with the exception of a black vest which matched the cloth of the tails and trousers...no "eclectic" variations were ever seen as appropriate. I would stick with the white marcela vest


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Ay329 said:


> OK C.C....how much should I buy to make my lapels?


One yard is enough but I think two yards just to be sure because it would ahve to be cut on the bias. Actually, ask the tailor how much to get giving them the width of the cloth.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Salieri said:


> This is all sounding like it might end nicely. I hope results will be published here in photographic form.
> 
> I have a bit of a question about white tie and rather than make a whole new topic, I thought I might just muscle in here if nobody minds. It's about waistcoats...
> 
> ...


Colours suitable for white tie waistcoats are white, off white, ivory, cream, black and (if also the tailcoat) midnight blue. For the light colours, the fabric can be marcella, plain cotton, taffeta, satin, grosgrain or some very subtle patterned silk (you could get away with damask (that is, all the same tone, not the type woven with different colours like this:

) as it was done in the past but I would advise you wear it within your circle of friends rather than to a 'serious' white tie event). Black/blue would be wool of course to match the coat. Any other material or colour will not do as it will stick out too much and throw the balance of the ensemble off.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

I don't like off white waistcoats for white tie. Subtly patterned white silk is okay, but if cream is used, the black-white only rule is broken. The only colour other than black (or, of course, midnight blue) and white in white tie is red for buttonhole in my opinion.

Best regards, Dr


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Cheviot said:


> Given that I don't like the look of the buttons, and the low cost to replace them I think I'll put in an order for the cloth covered buttons.
> 
> These tails are far longer than knee length, falling at mid-calf. Odd as the waist falls at the roughly the correct spot. Perhaps it was fitted for a taller, short-waisted man. As I have to have the sleeves taken in and shoulders narrowed slightly I'll talk with my tailor about shortening the tails as well.





Chasseur said:


> I have a set of evening tails from the 1950s (US made) that have tails of about that length as well. Its a beautiful set, high waisted trousers, great waist suppression/nipped waist on the jacket, etc. But the tails are super long past the knees.





Dennis V. said:


> My white tie coat also extends to beyond my knees, while the waist is at the correct level, perhaps that was in fashion in the 1950's, my set was made in march 1955 in the Netherlands. It is also made out of heavy material, expecially the grossgrain is very thick. It also has plain plastic buttons I will replace by grossgrain covered ones when I have a chance.
> 
> I actually like the long tails and will most likely keep them they way they are.





Cheviot said:


> Your coat sounds very much like mine, right down to the thick fabric and grosgrain and plastic buttons. Mine was made in March of 1961 on Conduit Street in London.


Jumping in here a bit late, I know, but I just wanted to add that my US-made (Hickey Freeman) tails from the early '60s also fall slightly below my knee. They may have been made for a taller man, though, as I had to have both sleeves and trousers shortened. I think they still worked out all right.










And my topper must be having an identity crisis, 'cause it's satin and non-collapsible!


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## GrumF14 (Aug 25, 2008)

ALWAYS elegant, Orgetorix! Truthfully, until I had looked at your location, between the times I've seen you in morning dress and eveningwear, I always assumed you were from the UK... fooled me!


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

GrumF14 said:


> ALWAYS elegant, Orgetorix! Truthfully, until I had looked at your location, between the times I've seen you in morning dress and eveningwear, I always assumed you were from the UK... fooled me!


Thanks, Greg. Unfortunately, despite the fun I had assembling my formal rigs and the enjoyment I get from wearing them, I've only had occasion to wear morning dress and tails once each so far--morningwear to my own wedding, and evening dress to a friend's. I hope to have an occasion to wear them again someday, though I'm afraid I'd have to drop a little weight to get back into my tails and even more to get into my cashmere stripes.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Orgetorix said:


> Jumping in here a bit late, I know, but I just wanted to add that my US-made (Hickey Freeman) tails from the early '60s also fall slightly below my knee. They may have been made for a taller man, though, as I had to have both sleeves and trousers shortened. I think they still worked out all right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks pretty good. I'd say the cuffs need attention and there is just a smidge of waistcoat peekage.

Topper: I thought it looked slightly odd... TBH, I think a taller topper would suit you more (at least a 6" wore dead straight).


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dr Kilroy said:


> I don't like off white waistcoats for white tie. Subtly patterned white silk is okay, but if cream is used, the black-white only rule is broken. The only colour other than black (or, of course, midnight blue) and white in white tie is red for buttonhole in my opinion.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


It depends what shade of cream you are using. I don't mean the yellow end but the white end.

Also, another colour used for WT is gold (for studs, etc) and pearl, and also light brown if we include the malacca cane but that is another can of worms I will not open...


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> It looks pretty good. I'd say the cuffs need attention and there is just a smidge of waistcoat peekage.
> 
> Topper: I thought it looked slightly odd... TBH, I think a taller topper would suit you more (at least a 6" wore dead straight).


Ok. When you raise the funds for me to buy a proper silk one to fit my 7 1/2 head, I'll take your advice! :biggrin:


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

White cotton gloves and replacement buttons have arrived... now just waiting on getting my jacket back from having the sleeves altered and a special goodie will be arriving next week. I thought it was a bit OTT, but the price and condition were right....


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Orgetorix said:


> Ok. When you raise the funds for me to buy a proper silk one to fit my 7 1/2 head, I'll take your advice! :biggrin:


Are you asking me to put you on my waiting list? I'm already on the lookout for silk toppers for my friends who all seem to have large heads (one of them is a 7 5/8 UK!)


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

BTW, I managed to alter a pair of dress breeches and will be wearing them for summer to my club's party (with silk stockings and opera pumps) as my fellow members are expecting it. Only for the brave mind you! And _honi soit qui mal y pense _to any naysayers... :icon_smile_big:


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Just asking, what colour stockings will you wear with it? White or black?

Best regards, Dr


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dr Kilroy said:


> Just asking, what colour stockings will you wear with it? White or black?
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Black. There is no other option as any other colour would just thrown the balance off by drawing too much attention to the legs (why you don't wear white socks with black/white tie).

White stockings are only worn for Court Uniform (scarlet tailcoat with gold lace embroidery on the front) with beige breeches.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Too bad. I like white stockings. From what I know, they were worn with it in Regency period, were they not?

I am also sorry that I probably will not be able to wear court dress, maybe for a costume party.  I assume that white powdered wigs, jabots tied in a bow and white court shoes on high heels with large bows are inappropriate for a real court dress, so a costume party is an option! 

Best regards, Dr


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

Isn't a court uniform tailcoat sometimes navy, or have I got too much Sir Joseph Porter in my head?

Acquired a 1948 midnight blue Huntsman & Son dress suit today. Didn't realise it was going to turn out to be Huntsman until it arrived!


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Black. There is no other option as any other colour would just thrown the balance off by drawing too much attention to the legs (why you don't wear white socks with black/white tie).
> 
> White stockings are only worn for Court Uniform (scarlet tailcoat with gold lace embroidery on the front) with beige breeches.


Someone has a copy of _Keepers of the kingdom_, methinks.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Dr Kilroy said:


> Too bad. I like white stockings. From what I know, they were worn with it in Regency period, were they not?
> 
> I am also sorry that I probably will not be able to wear court dress, maybe for a costume party.  I assume that white powdered wigs, jabots tied in a bow and white court shoes on high heels with large bows are inappropriate for a real court dress, so a costume party is an option!
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Yes, white stockings were worn in the Regency Period but with *light coloured* breeches.

Well, what I would be wearing is a formal version of white tie (not court dress) which can be worn to very formal balls, hunt balls, etc. I remember someone on this forum from Oxford said his friend wore beeches to one of the college balls. I could wear it as part of alternative court dress to meet The Queen in during an investiture or formal setting but there needs some changes to make it correct (that being removing the ribbon bows and replacing the gold knee buckles with black ones for the breeches and changing the waistcoat to a SB no lapel 4 button silk taffeta/satin one.)



Salieri said:


> Isn't a court uniform tailcoat sometimes navy, or have I got too much Sir Joseph Porter in my head?


Yes, they can be blue as well as black.



DougNZ said:


> Someone has a copy of _Keepers of the kingdom_, methinks.


I don't actually, but I have access to _Dress Worn at His Majesty's Court_, etc where most of my information comes from.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> I don't actually, but I have access to _Dress Worn at His Majesty's Court_, etc where most of my information comes from.


Those photographs both appear in _Keepers of the kingdom_. Have you had a read? An excellent book one one which I think you would enjoy.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Yes, white stockings were worn in the Regency Period but with *light coloured* breeches.


Oh yes, you are right. My breeches for court dress would be white, so there would be no problem.

Best regards, Dr


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

I wear black hose with my kilt for both black and white tie.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

You should get a pair of diced hose for white tie highland dress, really looks the part. Or a pair of diced hose tops like pipers sometimes use, steps up the look a notch.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

White is for daytime or dancing, diced for pipers or regimental. When I'm in formal evening kilt kit I don't want to be mistaken for any of those


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Diced or tartan is white tie, plain is black tie.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

A small update.

While my tailcoat is still out getting altered (I'm assured it will be done by week's end) another little goodie arrived. It needs a cleaning and a shine and it has a bit more wear around the crown edge than was apparent in the pictures, but its mine and I'm happy with it. After this event I'll have to see about sending it across the pond for Patey's to have a look, but for now...


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Cheviot said:


> A small update.
> 
> While my tailcoat is still out getting altered (I'm assured it will be done by week's end) another little goodie arrived. It needs a cleaning and a shine and it has a bit more wear around the crown edge than was apparent in the pictures, but its mine and I'm happy with it. After this event I'll have to see about sending it across the pond for Patey's to have a look, but for now...


TBH, I think the topper's in fair condition save the wear on the crown edge but I have seen far worse wear than that. I would just leave it unless there are other problems such as dents, falling off sweatband, worn brim binding, etc that would make it worth sending it over. Just give it a once over with the brush, pad and water polish (see my blog; use the spary method rather than the over splosh) and it would be okay. If you really must get it reconditioned I would contact Patey's, Lock's, Ascot Top Hats for quotes (with images attached and precise descriptions of the problems and what you want done). Avoid Hetherington Hats like the plague (they would try to flog you off with the full works which you don't need for £580!) You could also try contacting Ton Meeuwis of Silk Top Hats in the Netherlands (I heard he can recondition toppers too so may be an alternative there for you). Also, I would search out a hatter in the US that has a conformature and get them to take a conform card of your head which you would send with the hat so they can reconform it. Also may be a good idea (if you don't trust postal services of the hatters in the UK) is to send the topper to a friend or relative in the UK who would act on your behalf/collect the topper for you. I've heard one member of a forum who gave his topper in person to Patey's and then waited ages for the topper to be delivered to him in America (several months) and when he opened the box he discovered that things were not done fully as he requested etc (he asked for a full reconditioning but only got half of it done). If someone who lives in the UK can act as a go-between then things could be chased up quicker and directly than through long distant phone calls that get no where.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Overall the look is very nice, but it does have some wear and, given it's fairly large size (7 3/8 US) I think the refurbishment would be worthwhile, although not a high priority for me as I'll only be wearing it at night, and only for the 1/4 mile trip down the street from one hotel to another. 

Some of the wear is odd. The hat box it had been stored in for many years supported the hat, upside down, by its brim on two stretchy strings. Needless to say the strings wore spots on either side of the brim at the front and back. the brim is also worn at the very front, although i can't imagine how that might have happened. 

The sweat band is wavy but in good condition. perhaps just wetting it and allowing it to dry while held in the proper shape will fix it. I'd prefer to keep the original band as its labeled with the maker. It's a Henry Heath, by the way, but made for a American menswear store.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

From what you said, it looks like worthwhile to get it reconditioned. However, it might be 'the full works' as the plush is worn and that is difficult to correct (expect something in the region of £200-300). Patey would probably be the cheapest for a full job (but they don't use silk brim binding) but Ascot Top Hats could do a better job (they said they can use pre silk brim binding, etc and accommodate other requests which the other hatmakers probably won't do) but I dunno what they would charge as I never can get them to tell me an esitmate unless they see the hat in person. Lock's I know will charge you £400 and I haven't ascertained whether they use silk brim binding or not.

Avoid wetting the sweatband as it could create futher problems. I'm guessing that they'll replace the sweatband as well if you get it reconditioned.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Thanks for the tips. I wish I could find somewhere in the States to do the work. Working this out long-distance will be quite a bother. However this is a bridge I can cross once I'm prepared to send it off, probably this summer.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Well, most if not all hatmakers in the US have lost the skill of top hat making and repairing as there is no common event or situation where top hats are ever worn en masse. You can probably just about get them to reconform a topper or reinstall the sweatband (must be done by hand) but reblocking and recondition the silk plush is outside of their skills as they would only know how to work with soft felts.

I've just remembered that there is a Canadian hat maker who makes top hats (silk ones previously) and he may be able to assist somehow (as a last resort). However, from what I have heard he maybe not as skilled as the British hatmakers in terms of construction but since he is not making the hat but restoring the plush it maybe worth a gander...

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/sho...r-or-Derby-Hat&p=867234&viewfull=1#post867234


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

Cardcaptor Charlie:

Do refurbishments generally include removing indentations from top hats? I have one that's otherwise in good condition but has a bit of a dent in the crown.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

I don't much see the point in going to an craftsman of unknown skill when I know exactly where to find the best, however inconvenient it might be. I've emailed Patey to see what they have to say on the matter.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Taliesin said:


> Cardcaptor Charlie:
> 
> Do refurbishments generally include removing indentations from top hats? I have one that's otherwise in good condition but has a bit of a dent in the crown.


Well, refurbishment can mean anything from replacing the brim binding to the full works. Other words used: reconditioning, renovation, etc. Means the same thing: anything to do to repair the topper. Chnaging a brim binding/sweatband/etc even though it is in perefct condition would be called a modification.

As for the degree of refurbishment, it depends on the hatmaker. Some charge you per item. Some have 'price points' (e.g. Patey) which they charge you a fixed price based on the level of service you want and then that includes a number of different things. You just have to ask.

Having dents in the crown requires reblocking. That Patey can do it (for £95 + VAT) but I must warn you that they would also replace the sweatband no matter what the condition is if it is an old one (not sure if you can tell them not to replace it but worth a try). Lock's would charge you £200 for it. Dunno about ATH as per reasons given.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Cheviot said:


> I don't much see the point in going to an craftsman of unknown skill when I know exactly where to find the best, however inconvenient it might be. I've emailed Patey to see what they have to say on the matter.


Well, yes. Just giving you the options. I would guess they would charge you the top price point of £195 for the work you want doing, plus the postage which would probably be around £34-50. Either way if you do go with them, do explain to them what you want doing precisely and what you want left alone. Then follow my conform card advice to ensure a good reconformation so it would fit perfectly.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Well, yes. Just giving you the options. I would guess they would charge you the top price point of £195 for the work you want doing, plus the postage which would probably be around £34-50. Either way if you do go with them, do explain to them what you want doing precisely and what you want left alone. Then follow my conform card advice to ensure a good reconformation so it would fit perfectly.


I've been searching for a hatter in the area with a conformateur, but so far no luck. Still, the search goes on!


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Cheviot said:


> I've been searching for a hatter in the area with a conformateur, but so far no luck. Still, the search goes on!


Might be worth asking at the Fedora Lounge where some hatters and hat lovers lurk... I've gotten the picture that there were loads of antique ones left over from when toppers were worn daily in America (some come up on Ebay from time to time fetching thousands of pounds a set), now most of them keep them for show (not for use as per reason that they don't block hard hats anymore) but they are still in working condition.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

*coming down to the wire*

Timing is getting tight. I was hoping to pick up my jacket today but my taylor is saying it should be ready Tuesday. Here's hoping!


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

I got my tailcoat back and threw everything on to make sure it all came together. Forgot to put in my pocket square and my shirt sleeves rode up a bit as I was dressing, but you get the general idea. Yes, the hair is getting cut and the mustache and beard will be gone before the big night. Insert obligatory photos taken while standing awkwardly in front of the camera here.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Very nice! I only do not like shirt studs - mother of pearl would be better for white tie. Also do not put the evening scarf under the lapels - that does not look very good. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

I agree on the scarf... saw that as soon as I looked at the pictures.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

One last update. Got a photo back from the party. Evidently I was the only one that actually wore a top hat to the event so the photographers asked me to retrieve it from coat check for a picture.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Very good. I hope you also took your scarf off indoors as well! 

Also, I noticed the buttonhole is pinned onto the lapel rather than inserted into the buttonhole... Don't do that next time as it will wear out and mark the silk facings faster than you think.


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## Cheviot (Feb 16, 2006)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Very good. I hope you also took your scarf off indoors as well!
> 
> Also, I noticed the buttonhole is pinned onto the lapel rather than inserted into the buttonhole... Don't do that next time as it will wear out and mark the silk facings faster than you think.


I did take off the scarf, but when I checked my hat I had placed it inside and the photographer asked me to wear it is well. There should be some photos of me actually in the party on the way, but they're taking quite awhile in posting them. I was having a great deal of trouble with my buttonhole and eventually gave up and pinned it in place. I'll be fixing that before my next outing.

I had a great deal of trouble


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

The flower might be a bit too big or the buttonhole too small (less than 1 1/8") that's why. Go for a small white carnation.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

Hello, I have got a question regarding white tie, but I do not want to start a new thread. Let it be a general white tie thread. 

Here it is: what do you think about a velvet collar for a dress coat? I cannot find any modern illustrations as this is rather an old feature, but this is the best one (second from right):



Best regards, Dr


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Nicholas Storey mentions the velvet collar in his book as appropriate for white tie but I have never seen or found examples that it was used generally. I know it is a feature that survived from when all dress coats had the velvet collar from the Regency period but it sort of died out during the Victorian era and I have never come across it being mentioned at all by the Edwardian. 

I would say that it is still correct to have a velvet collar on the body coat (I cannot see why it cannot, and it is subtle enough for inclusion) but it is extremely rare.


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## questioner (Jul 25, 2012)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> Toppers and canes are not really essential nowadays (personally for me, I would not go out the house in full white tie without a topper as I would feel my stature would be too short).


I'm 21, i live in a casual devoted country, but i have a great respect for white tie.
My experience is that when i was flirting with a girl :cool2: and showed examples of correct hatless white tie, she spontaneously said it seemed incomplete for some reason, asked if she had seen it before, but she said no. Then I showed pictures where top hat and cane were and she told me that now is OK y look great. Newly i asked if she had seen it before, and neither. The same history with the next 5 girls.
Apparently top hat fulfills the function of balancing tailcoat, otherwise it would look unbalanced. And appears to be in the structure of the human mind.
that's why I can not imagine white tie without top hat, ...
and cane, cloak, ...


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

questioner said:


> I'm 21, i live in a casual devoted country, but i have a great respect for white tie.
> My experience is that when i was flirting with a girl :cool2: and showed examples of correct hatless white tie, she spontaneously said it seemed incomplete for some reason, asked if she had seen it before, but she said no. Then I showed pictures where top hat and cane were and she told me that now is OK y look great. Newly i asked if she had seen it before, and neither. The same history with the next 5 girls.
> Apparently top hat fulfills the function of balancing tailcoat, otherwise it would look unbalanced. And appears to be in the structure of the human mind.
> that's why I can not imagine white tie without top hat, ...
> and cane, cloak, ...


My father, who would now be 98 were he alive, told me, (I don't know if he was serious), that in his day at the conclusion of a date a young men might ask the young lady "Would you like to come up and see my etchings?" I wonder how "Would you like to come up and see my top hat and cane?" might go over. Good luck with number 7.


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## questioner (Jul 25, 2012)

arkirshner said:


> Good luck with number 7.


thanks. :icon_smile_big:


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## questioner (Jul 25, 2012)

BTW, is this topper correctly made?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

I don't know about this one, perhaps one of our UK members knows and can give his suggestions. You might take a look at Ede & Ravenscroft, a merchant that always gets good reviews, top hat for 245 pounds less.


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