# Florsheim Kenmoor Questions ANSWERED



## Mr. Mac

I just had a great conversation with our Florsheim Rep and one of the Florsheim corporate officers. They gave me some great info about some of their products. They have a fantastic new line coming out in fall that will interest some of you: a well-made gunboat in some really cool colors, very well made with a comfort insole, leathers from the Horween Tannery (not shell - though they do make shell for Duckie Brown) that will retail at $170. And the craftsmanship looked really nice.

But that's not the reason for the post. I grilled them for a while concerning the Kenmoor. There's a lot of opinions about this shoe floating around here so I wanted real answers from the horses mouth. The following are facts (according to the man responsible for production):

1.) The Kenmoor is a full-grain leather shoe. The smooth leather is NOT corrected-grain. The Pebble grain finish is NOT stamped. The leathers are sourced from both the US and abroad, depending on availability.

2.) Production was shipped overseas for labor costs. Period. The lasts, machines, methods, etc are all identical to the shoes made in the US. The quality standards are not lower. Quote: "If these were made by Americans they would retail over $300."

3.) It is the only Royal Imperial left in the line. It was the best-selling of the old RI's and the only one they continued making after shipping production to India. They merged it into the Imperial line.

4.) It's a $225 shoe. This point really made sense to me. The rep said, in essence, "Look, this shoe is as well made as they were when we moved production to India. The quality is top-notch. But it's not an Alden. It's not an Allen-Edmond. But it is the best $225 welted shoe on the market."

Discuss.

EDIT: What impressed me most was that these guys really are serious about restoring the Florsheim name. The quality is really improving on their new line made for small retailers.


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit

Hm, interesting. I really look forward to seeing what this develops into. I just got my NOS Kenmoors earlier this month, and have really loved them. They'd sure enjoy some company.


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## greekgeek

I feel you have been lied to and mislead. You have my sympathies for having suffered through such tripe.

Buy some Aldens, Allen Edmonds, or vintage Florsheim Kenmoors and do not look back. All three blow the current Florsheim production out of the water.


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## Nick V

Mr. Mac said:


> I just had a great conversation with our Florsheim Rep and one of the Florsheim corporate officers. They gave me some great info about some of their products. They have a fantastic new line coming out in fall that will interest some of you: a well-made gunboat in some really cool colors, very well made with a comfort insole, leathers from the Horween Tannery (not shell - though they do make shell for Duckie Brown) that will retail at $170. And the craftsmanship looked really nice.
> 
> But that's not the reason for the post. I grilled them for a while concerning the Kenmoor. There's a lot of opinions about this shoe floating around here so I wanted real answers from the horses mouth. The following are facts (according to the man responsible for production):
> 
> 1.) The Kenmoor is a full-grain leather shoe. The smooth leather is NOT corrected-grain. The Pebble grain finish is NOT stamped. The leathers are sourced from both the US and abroad, depending on availability.
> 
> 2.) Production was shipped overseas for labor costs. Period. The lasts, machines, methods, etc are all identical to the shoes made in the US. The quality standards are not lower. Quote: "If these were made by Americans they would retail over $300."
> 
> 3.) It is the only Royal Imperial left in the line. It was the best-selling of the old RI's and the only one they continued making after shipping production to India. They merged it into the Imperial line.
> 
> 4.) It's a $225 shoe. This point really made sense to me. The rep said, in essence, "Look, this shoe is as well made as they were when we moved production to India. The quality is top-notch. But it's not an Alden. It's not an Allen-Edmond. But it is the best $225 welted shoe on the market."
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> EDIT: What impressed me most was that these guys really are serious about restoring the Florsheim name. The quality is really improving on their new line made for small retailers.


I have a connection with a deep rooted Florsheim rep myself. I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I posted my call on this back when the Florsheim family bought back the company a few years ago.
Your items 2,4 and, EDIT say it all.
Although I am partial to quality goods made in the U.S.A. (sentimantally) from a price standpoint Florsheim is worth keeping an eye on.


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## Mr. Mac

greekgeek said:


> I feel you have been lied to and mislead. You have my sympathies for having suffered through such tripe.
> 
> Buy some Aldens, Allen Edmonds, or vintage Florsheim Kenmoors and do not look back. All three blow the current Florsheim production out of the water.


I fail to see how this changes anything I said in the post. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

FWIW I have accounts with both AE and Alden and own both.

EDIT: And in my opinion Alden is the only American company blowing anybody out of the water. AE make fine shoes, but they are closer to the low end than Alden is - by a large margin. The pre-production samples (of future models) I held today were easily the most impressive product I've seen in a LONG time, and side by side with an AE the Kenmoor stacks up nicely, especially considering the $100 + price difference.


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## Trip English

greekgeek said:


> I feel you have been lied to and mislead. You have my sympathies for having suffered through such tripe.
> 
> Buy some Aldens, Allen Edmonds, or vintage Florsheim Kenmoors and do not look back. All three blow the current Florsheim production out of the water.


^This is ludicrous.

It's great to hear that there's a company concerned with making the best shoe at a given price. Anyone can head down the rabbit hole and push their brand and product into the stratosphere with ever increasing granularity of perfection. To stake out a claim at a reasonable but premium price-point and make the best possible product accordingly is sorely missing in a consumer landscape that's becoming trash or treasure with nothing in the middle.


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## greekgeek

Mr. Mac said:


> I fail to see how this changes anything I said in the post. Perhaps you could enlighten me?
> 
> FWIW I have accounts with both AE and Alden and own both.


So you agree that the Kenmoor is not made with corrected grain or that the pebble grain is not applied via embossing, really?

How about the cardboard/shoddy insole?

The rock hard outsoles?

The inferior lining leathers/pleathers?

I have not seen salesman samples of new models but the comments about the Kenmoor being made to top standards but for the labor are pretty outlandish.


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## greekgeek

Trip English said:


> ^This is ludicrous.
> 
> It's great to hear that there's a company concerned with making the best shoe at a given price. Anyone can head down the rabbit hole and push their brand and product into the stratosphere with ever increasing granularity of perfection. To stake out a claim at a reasonable but premium price-point and make the best possible product accordingly is sorely missing in a consumer landscape that's becoming trash or treasure with nothing in the middle.


If you think paying $225 for an inferior quality shoe is good middle value then it appears Florsheim has found their demographic.


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## Mr. Mac

greekgeek said:


> So you agree that the Kenmoor is not made with corrected grain or that the pebble grain is not applied via embossing, really?
> 
> How about the cardboard/shoddy insole?
> 
> The rock hard outsoles?
> 
> The inferior lining leathers/pleathers?
> 
> I have not seen salesman samples of new models but the comments about the Kenmoor being made to top standards but for the labor are pretty outlandish.


I think you should re-read (or perhaps read for the first time) what I wrote in my OP. It might help dissuade you from putting words in my mouth.


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## greekgeek

Mr. Mac said:


> I think you should re-read (or perhaps read for the first time) what I wrote in my OP. It might help dissuade you from putting words in my mouth.


This is an odd post, I admit I do not understand it at all.

In elaborating on my initial reply I was making counter points to #1, #2, and #4 from your OP which were listed as "facts" on the Kenmoor from the Florsheim rep.


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## Mr. Mac

greekgeek said:


> This is an odd post, I admit I do not understand it at all.
> 
> In elaborating on my initial reply I was making counter points to #1, #2, and #4 from your OP which were listed as "facts" on the Kenmoor from the Florsheim rep.


In the absence of a third party laboratory to validate all the claims made by shoe marketers/salesman, I suppose I'm just naive enough to listen to the man who makes the damn things.

My apologies for an odd, hard to understand post.

One of these days I'm going to be able to use this forum as a way to talk to other people about clothes, the clothing industry, shoes and whatnot, without every exchange devolving into a pissing contest about what brand is best in the fanciful world of subjectivity.


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## Trip English

greekgeek said:


> If you think paying $225 for an inferior quality shoe is good middle value then it appears Florsheim has found their demographic.


Are you being intentionally rude or are we misreading the tone of your posts?


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## greekgeek

Mr. Mac said:


> In the absence of a third party laboratory to validate all the claims made by shoe marketers/salesman, I suppose I'm just naive enough to listen to the man who makes the damn things.
> 
> My apologies for an odd, hard to understand post.
> 
> One of these days I'm going to be able to use this forum as a way to talk to other people about clothes, the clothing industry, shoes and whatnot, without every exchange devolving into a pissing contest about what brand is best in the fanciful world of subjectivity.


Well you made a bold post in your OP and after your request for enlightenment I thought that a challenge on the quality points was welcome.

You proclaim to observe the quality gap between between Alden and Allen Edmonds yet you fail to appreciate the shortcuts taken on the Kenmoors?

My comments were objective on construction materials, not slanted towards a particular brand. You do not need a laboratory to observe these differences. I attempted a discussion with you on these points and what happens?

I am accused of putting words in your mouth, being ignorant of what you posted, and finally subject to a bizarre cry/lamentation session rather than discussion.

Ridiculous.


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## AlanC

I thought all pebble grain was made with some sort of embossing. How is "good" pebble grain made?

It would be nice if Florsheim would revive the Royal Imperial line by returning it to US production and making shell versions, even have the v-cleat. They could target the line to the same type of stores that carry Alden. If they really want to restore the Florsheim name that would do it.


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## greekgeek

Trip English said:


> Are you being intentionally rude or are we misreading the tone of your posts?


I think there is much misinformation in the OP which could mislead people into thinking that nothing more has changed from USA made Kenmoors to Made in India Kenmoors other than the labor used in assembly.

I do not think that is accurate and tried to point out why.


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## ZachGranstrom

To get back to the point...

I'm happy that floresheim is committed again to making quality shoes.:icon_smile_big:


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## Pentheos

When it comes to shoes, I think I'll listen to Nick V., not you, geekgeek.


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## Trip English

greekgeek said:


> I think there is much misinformation in the OP which could mislead people into thinking that nothing more has changed from USA made Kenmoors to Made in India Kenmoors other than the labor used in assembly.
> 
> I do not think that is accurate and tried to point out why.


I think your approach could use some polish. There was a distinct combativeness and a tone of superiority that does not play well here.


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## Mr. Mac

The best part of my chat with the Florsheim boys today was talking about their new synthetic soles, specifically the costs. It's much cheaper for them to introduce new welted shoes than cemented shoes. They have to sell tens of thousands of each size before they can amortize the molds for a cemented shoe (this is why companies like ECCO carry the same styles for years). 

Apparently that's why companies like AE can introduce so many new styles each season. The lasts and welting remain the same - all they have to do is pop on a new upper. Production costs other than labor and materials costs are pretty stable, plus larger per-unit profits don't tie them to economies of scale in quite the same way a cemented-shoe manufacturer is.


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## greekgeek

Trip English said:


> I think your approach could use some polish. There was a distinct combativeness and a tone of superiority that does not play well here.


You are probaby right, my shoes could use a little polish as well. I have a bit of a wry sense of humor which, based on the responses illicited, clearly did not come through in my initial reply.

Steady on.


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## Trip English

greekgeek said:


> You are probaby right, my shoes could use a little polish as well. I have a bit of a wry sense of humor which, based on the responses illicited, clearly did not come through in my initial reply.
> 
> Steady on.


Fair enough.


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## Mr. Mac

greekgeek said:


> Well you made a bold post in your OP and after your request for enlightenment I thought that a challenge on the quality points was welcome.
> 
> You proclaim to observe the quality gap between between Alden and Allen Edmonds yet you fail to appreciate the shortcuts taken on the Kenmoors?
> 
> My comments were objective on construction materials, not slanted towards a particular brand. You do not need a laboratory to observe these differences. I attempted a discussion with you on these points and what happens?
> 
> I am accused of putting words in your mouth, being ignorant of what you posted, and finally subject to a bizarre cry/lamentation session rather than discussion.
> 
> Ridiculous.


Objective on construction materials?

"Cardboard/shoddy insoles": I'm not sure which Kenmoors YOU own, but mine are fully lined with leather (although this is hardly a sign of quality: AE doesn't line their insoles.)

"Rock-Hard outsoles": That's called a double-sole. Alden calls theirs 'double-oak', I believe. Or as a customer of mine put it, "The sole you wear when you have to kick some a**."

"Inferior lining leathers/pleathers": The linings on my Kenmoors are soft, supple, substantial, and don't feel terribly different than those on my AE's (though my Alden's feel better). As for the "pleather", you must be referring to the cheaper Florsheims (sub $100) that use synthetics.

And so I'll stand by my original post. And you're right, I don't need a laboratory to illustrate quality. My professional experience selling shoes of widely different qualities for most of my adult life takes care of that for me.


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## frosejr

Has anyone purchased modern Kenmoor Imperials like these:



If so, your thoughts?


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## greekgeek

Mr. Mac said:


> Objective on construction materials?
> 
> "Cardboard/shoddy insoles": I'm not sure which Kenmoors YOU own, but mine are fully lined with leather (although this is hardly a sign of quality: AE doesn't line their insoles.)


The full leather lining does not necessarily equate to a full leather insole. If you peel back the liner, is the insole solid leather or something else?

I am fairly certain that they no longer use a leather insole. I looked at one and it was not whereas they used to be when made stateside. Perhaps they switched back to full leather? If so it was a smart move.



Mr. Mac said:


> Objective on construction materials?
> 
> "Rock-Hard outsoles": That's called a double-sole. Alden calls theirs 'double-oak', I believe. Or as a customer of mine put it, "The sole you wear when you have to kick some a**."


We better call the lab with a Rockwell tester and Abrasion tester for this one. :icon_smile_big: I'll agree that they are leather and could definately kick some A**! .



Mr. Mac said:


> Objective on construction materials?
> 
> "Inferior lining leathers/pleathers": The linings on my Kenmoors are soft, supple, substantial, and don't feel terribly different than those on my AE's (though my Alden's feel better). As for the "pleather", you must be referring to the cheaper Florsheims (sub $100) that use synthetics.


That could be the case, let's assume the linings are leather of good quality. It would not be the first time I might have made a mistake.

So the other feature I mentioned was the leather uppers. The Kenmoors I have seen appeared to be corrected grain for the most part, and certainly embossed for the pebble grain. All had quite a shine to them.

Better than the average shoe? Absolutely. Make them to the standard they used to be when stateside and believe me I will be the first person to buy a pair. I just think they still have quite a ways to go to get there.


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit

frosejr said:


> Has anyone purchased modern Kenmoor Imperials like these:
> 
> If so, your thoughts?


In the words of today's Internet: sorry, bro, those def. aren't Kenmoors.

Too sleek, single-soled. Also, the Kenmoor was made on Florsheim's Imperial and Royal Imperial lines, so the pill-shaped logo on the inner lining would have said so, and have been green and yellow.


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## WouldaShoulda

greekgeek said:


> If you think paying $225 for an inferior quality shoe is good middle value then it appears Florsheim has found their demographic.


I own several more expensive quality shoes but my India made Kenmoors filled a niche in my collection!!

It's just as simple as that.


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## TheWGP

Regardless of the debate over construction, I found this post quite interesting and illuminating. But yes, restoring the Florsheim name would probably at least take some US production and improved commitment to leather quality... shell would be the easiest way to do that but it's probably too pricey for them to consider.


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## greekgeek

WouldaShoulda said:


> I own several more expensive quality shoes but my India made Kenmoors filled a niche in my collection!!
> 
> It's just as simple as that.


Nice pic, and I agree they are good for what they are. The comments in the OP make them out to be something they are not.


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## Nick V

greekgeek said:


> Nice pic, and I agree they are good for what they are. The comments in the OP make them out to be something they are not.


?

4.) It's a $225 shoe. This point really made sense to me. The rep said, in essence, "Look, this shoe is as well made as they were when we moved production to India. The quality is top-notch. But it's not an Alden. It's not an Allen-Edmond. But it is the best $225 welted shoe on the market."


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## greekgeek

Nick V said:


> ?
> 
> 4.) It's a $225 shoe. This point really made sense to me. The rep said, in essence, "Look, this shoe is as well made as they were when we moved production to India. The quality is top-notch. But it's not an Alden. It's not an Allen-Edmond. But it is the best $225 welted shoe on the market."


What is the mystery? I do not agree that the shoe is as well made as before they moved to India. I do not think it qualifies as a top notch shoe and I have listed reasons why I think that.

Do you think it is the same quality shoe, domestic vs. Indian production, only made by different hands?

That is the problem I have with the OP, that it states that the India made Florsheim is the same quality shoe as the made in the USA version was but for the labor used.

But of course you already know they are not made to the same standard of materials, so why the coy post?


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## Coleman

I have to say I too find the rep's statements dubious, primarily in regard to the leather. It looks CG to me, even the pebble-grain. It has a shine to it that my eye finds very unnatural looking and very unlike non-CG calf. 

The fact that Nick is in support of them though makes me want to believe the rep's comments.

I feel I'm just as confused about these shoes (maybe more so) than before this thread.


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## Wes Bourne

AlanC said:


> I thought all pebble grain was made with some sort of embossing. How is "good" pebble grain made?


+1 ???

Fwiw, I have a pair of NOS USA made pebble grain Kenmoors w/v-cleats and tbh, the quality looks the same as current made in India ones, down to the plasticky looking uppers. The grained calf on my Trickers brogues as well as C&J made BB Peal boots is much nicer.


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## Nick V

greekgeek said:


> What is the mystery? I do not agree that the shoe is as well made as before they moved to India. I do not think it qualifies as a top notch shoe and I have listed reasons why I think that.
> 
> Do you think it is the same quality shoe, domestic vs. Indian production, only made by different hands?
> 
> That is the problem I have with the OP, that it states that the India made Florsheim is the same quality shoe as the made in the USA version was but for the labor used.
> 
> But of course you already know they are not made to the same standard of materials, so why the coy post?


There are a few points being made here. This is one of them:

But it is the best $225 welted shoe on the market."

Tell us what you consider a good value at that price.


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## MR MILLER

greekgeek said:


> Nice pic, and I agree they are good for what they are. The comments in the OP make them out to be something they are not.


 Ill say this mutch, even though i am a new member i did read the forums before i joined and i have noticed a biest opinion when i comes to any shoe thats does not meet the price requirments of most members, it seems that if you dont purchase alden or edmonds (or more expensive churches or sargents) that your kinda thrown under the bus so to speak even when a member posts a pic of a nice shoe they have purchased that is clearly something they are excited about ,obviously enough to share it with some of the fine members here, they get blasted for not buying said brand, is this a forum for knowledge and self help or simply the rich kids taking shots at those who do not have the funds to afford such foot wear


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## MR MILLER

WouldaShoulda said:


> I own several more expensive quality shoes but my India made Kenmoors filled a niche in my collection!!
> 
> It's just as simple as that.


love those kenmoors by the way


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## Doctor Damage

AlanC said:


> It would be nice if Florsheim would revive the Royal Imperial line by returning it to US production and making shell versions, even have the v-cleat. They could target the line to the same type of stores that carry Alden. If they really want to restore the Florsheim name that would do it.


The Florsheim brand name is still widely know and respected, even here in Canada, so if they can produce shoes of decent quality at a reasonable price they might be able to grab back some market share in dress shoes.


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## dport86

Wes Bourne said:


> +1 ???
> 
> Fwiw, I have a pair of NOS USA made pebble grain Kenmoors w/v-cleats and tbh, the quality looks the same as current made in India ones, down to the plasticky looking uppers. The grained calf on my Trickers brogues as well as C&J made BB Peal boots is much nicer.


I saw the Ducky Browns in person here and the leather is definitely not as good as on my v-cleats. And I have some NOS Royal Imperials in brown pebble grained (or cashmere, as I believe Florsheim called it) that are superb, non-plasticky leather untouched by the Tricker's I've seen. There was also something material wise that didn't feel quite up to Florsheim's old standards. Can't put my finger on it but on the whole, just did not feel that same. OTOH, Florsheim USA production at the end wasn't like the old time quality either.


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## yossarian

I am wearing my made in Spain cordovan Royal Imperials right now and I really like them. They are a much nicer shoe than my J&M Aristocrats that I bought in the mid-90s. After 4 years, they still look great and have held up very well/


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit

I'll say this: my V-cleated, USA-made Kenmoors are definitely _not_ CG, and they are pebble grain. They absorbed leather conditioner, both outside of the shoe and inside. I honestly cannot say that the current Kenmoor lives up to this shoe, but I'll be excited to give the new line a chance.


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## greekgeek

Nick V said:


> There are a few points being made here. This is one of them:
> 
> But it is the best $225 welted shoe on the market."
> 
> Tell us what you consider a good value at that price.


Rather than be directed to become designated bargain hunter and chase a red herring, I would like to hear your take on the points of material quality I raised in refutation of the OP.


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## Mr. Mac

To reiterate what I tried to convey in my OP:

1.) There seems to be a bit of controversy concerning the quality of the India-made Florsheim Kenmoor

2.) I sell Florsheim (among many other brands) for a living

3.) I had a chance to ask questions directly to the company rep and a senior company executive in charge of production

4.) I thought you all might like to know what they had to say

And to add an additional thought to ponder:

Don't shoot the messenger. If you disagree with what I wrote, feel free to call the Florsheim brothers and tell them they're full of crap.


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## Nick V

greekgeek said:


> Rather than be directed to become designated bargain hunter and chase a red herring, I would like to hear your take on the points of material quality I raised in refutation of the OP.


*YOU:*
I feel you have been lied to and mislead. You have my sympathies for having suffered through such tripe.

Buy some Aldens, Allen Edmonds, or vintage Florsheim Kenmoors and do not look back. All three blow the current Florsheim production out of the water.

*ME:*
You don't seem to get the point. Re-read the entire tread with an open mind. Then, we'll talk.


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## Pentheos

greekgeek said:


> Rather than be directed to become designated bargain hunter and chase a red herring, I would like to hear your take on the points of material quality I raised in refutation of the OP.


If that was your idea of a "refutation," I hope you're not a lawyer.


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## heimskringla

Personally, I'd pay an extra $75 or so if the shoes were made in the US. It's not that I doubt the quality of goods made elsewhere, it's that I'd like to see more manufacturing moved back Stateside.


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## greekgeek

Nick V said:


> *YOU:*
> I feel you have been lied to and mislead. You have my sympathies for having suffered through such tripe.
> 
> Buy some Aldens, Allen Edmonds, or vintage Florsheim Kenmoors and do not look back. All three blow the current Florsheim production out of the water.
> 
> *ME:*
> You don't seem to get the point. Re-read the entire tread with an open mind. Then, we'll talk.


Are you purposely being obtuse or did you not read my other posts in this thread? The OP paints the picture that the shoes are top flight and that the only difference is that the labor source has change since the offshoring of production and that the quality of the Kenmoor line has been maintained. I guess I beg to differ.



greekgeek said:


> So you agree that the Kenmoor is not made with corrected grain or that the pebble grain is not applied via embossing, really?
> 
> How about the cardboard/shoddy insole?
> 
> The rock hard outsoles?
> 
> The inferior lining leathers/pleathers?
> 
> I have not seen salesman samples of new models but the comments about the Kenmoor being made to top standards but for the labor are pretty outlandish.





greekgeek said:


> This is an odd post, I admit I do not understand it at all.
> 
> In elaborating on my initial reply I was making counter points to #1, #2, and #4 from your OP which were listed as "facts" on the Kenmoor from the Florsheim rep.





greekgeek said:


> Nice pic, and I agree they are good for what they are. The comments in the OP make them out to be something they are not.


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## Nick V

greekgeek said:


> Are you purposely being obtuse or did you not read my other posts in this thread? The OP paints the picture that the shoes are top flight and that the only difference is that the labor source has change since the offshoring of production and that the quality of the Kenmoor line has been maintained. I guess I beg to differ.


I read your posts. Frankly, I don't see much credibility in them. I hope that's direct enough for you. The OP was trying to make the point that Florsheim is a good value. His post was based on his experience in the shoe biz and those he knows. Mine mirror that. Further, I'll repeat, keep an eye on Florsheim, they know what they are doing. I agree to disagree with you.


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## greekgeek

Nick V said:


> I read your posts. Frankly, I don't see much credibility in them. I hope that's direct enough for you. The OP was trying to make the point that Florsheim is a good value. His post was based on his experience in the shoe biz and those he knows. Mine mirror that. Further, I'll repeat, keep an eye on Florsheim, they know what they are doing. I agree to disagree with you.


Interesting take on it, suprising even, considering your background. Hopefully perception can become reality.


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## Racer

I have no dog in this hunt, other than I'm interested in learning more about this these topics to become a more educated consumer. In that vein, I found the OP's thread opener to be educational. The OP made it quite clear where he sourced his information, and from what I could see made absolutely no attempt to claim objectivity.

Unfortunately several of the follow-on posts didn't add any value to the subject; instead, they did the opposite. This substantially diminished the potential for educational value, and seems to have completely derailed the topic. I find that very disappointing.


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## Cardinals5

I've been trying to keep my nose out of the action in this thread, but fear some of the dispute, as usual, is over the use of language. We've all been refering to Florsheim "Kenmoors" as if they were the proper name of all versions of longwings Florsheim ever produced. At various times Florsheim has produced a number of different "lines" of longwings at different prices. At a period in the early 1980s, IIRC, Florsheim was producing (using black as an example):

Black shell cordovan longwings (Royal Imperial)
Black smooth calf longwings (Royal Imperial)
Black pebble grained longwings (Royal Imperial)
Black shell longwings (Imperial)
Black smooth calf longwings (Imperial)
Black pebble grained longwings (Imperial)
Black smooth calf longwings (standard line)
Black pebble grained longwings (standard line)

Now which of those models should accurately be called the "Kenmoor" I'm uncertain, but I assume the name should not be applied to the standard line versions. Or, if all Florsheim longwings are called "Kenmoor" then we should specify which line we're talking about. 

In the same vein, I have seen both full calf (Kenmoor?) and corrected grain (non-Kenmoor?) longwings by Florsheim that were made in India. Both were good quality for the price. If Florsheim is now only using full grain calf for their made in India Kenmoor longwings at the $225 price then I absolutely salute and congratulate them. I can't speak from recent experience, but it wouldn't surprise me if Florsheim was ALSO producing a longwing made of cg, but that shouldn't be called the "Kenmoor" and is sold for less than $225. Mr. Mac or Nick V can and should correct me on that last point if I am wrong.

When all is said and done, I'm planning on hunting down a brick-and-mortar store where I can see some of the recent Florsheim longwing offerings.


----------



## Nick V

greekgeek said:


> Interesting take on it, suprising even, considering your background. Hopefully perception can become reality.


It's not perception. Florsheim never claimed to be Alden or Allen Edmonds. It's price points. IMO they are hitting the mark.


----------



## HistoryDoc

I have to believe that anyone disagreeing with Nick V. must not know who he is. He knows all of these shoes, brands, and materials. When he weighs in, it should settle the issue. He is also the closest thing to an unbiased source we'll find, since he doesn't work for Florsheim, AE, or Alden. He tears apart and reconstructs these shoes every day. Look over his past posts, also. He doesn't needlessly criticize brands and he is the first to say when one of his competitors does good work. He is the expert.


----------



## Wes Bourne

Cardinals5 said:


> I've been trying to keep my nose out of the action in this thread, but fear some of the dispute, as usual, is over the use of language. We've all been refering to Florsheim "Kenmoors" as if they were the proper name of all versions of longwings Florsheim ever produced. At various times Florsheim has produced a number of different "lines" of longwings at different prices. At a period in the early 1980s, IIRC, Florsheim was producing (using black as an example):
> 
> Black shell cordovan longwings (Royal Imperial)
> Black smooth calf longwings (Royal Imperial)
> Black* pebble grained longwings (Royal Imperial)*
> Black shell longwings (Imperial)
> Black smooth calf longwings (Imperial)
> Black *pebble grained longwings (Imperial)*
> Black smooth calf longwings (standard line)
> Black pebble grained longwings (standard line)
> 
> Now which of those models should accurately be called the "Kenmoor" I'm uncertain, but I assume the name should not be applied to the standard line versions. Or, if all Florsheim longwings are called "Kenmoor" then we should specify which line we're talking about.
> 
> In the same vein, I have seen both full calf (Kenmoor?) and corrected grain (non-Kenmoor?) longwings by Florsheim that were made in India. Both were good quality for the price. If Florsheim is now only using full grain calf for their made in India Kenmoor longwings at the $225 price then I absolutely salute and congratulate them. I can't speak from recent experience, but it wouldn't surprise me if Florsheim was ALSO producing a longwing made of cg, but that shouldn't be called the "Kenmoor" and is sold for less than $225. Mr. Mac or Nick V can and should correct me on that last point if I am wrong.
> 
> When all is said and done, I'm planning on hunting down a brick-and-mortar store where I can see some of the recent Florsheim longwing offerings.


Ah-ha! My NOS longwings (can I call them Kenmoors?) are Imperial, not Royal Imperial. Might explain why the uppers on mine are closer in appearance to current ones than for those who have vintage Royal Imperials...


----------



## greekgeek

Nick V said:


> It's not perception. Florsheim never claimed to be Alden or Allen Edmonds. It's price points. IMO they are hitting the mark.


Price points have nothing to do with claiming a Chevy (Chery?) is made to Cadillac quality but for the labor used.

You have yet to address the comments in the OP as regards to quality of materials used and instead insist on pressing a "price to value" argument, which incidentally, I never directly addressed and is not the thrust of my posts.


----------



## Pentheos

This might be the stupidest thread ever on AAAC.


----------



## My Pet. A Pantsuit

*Maybe this will help clarify...*

These are from a 1975 Florsheim catalog. Little mention of the Royal Imperial line, but the Kenmoor appear as part of the Imperial set. 









Note the mention, but not appearance, of the Golden Harvest AKA Band-Aid finish:










There's also an _Albany_ longwing (there were other Albanies, such as a monkstrap) that is depicted as part of the Florsheim Flexibles line.










Dialing back to 1973, the Kenmoor did appear on the main line as well as the Imperial line. Finding this, I was willing to be wrong about the link Frosejr posted being Kenmoors, but I compared the medallion brogues and they were, in fact, different. Not to mention the overall shape and single sole...










Since the pictures of the Imperials were mightily similar to those in 1975, I didn't scan those out of the sanctity of bandwidth.


----------



## Gromson

Pentheos said:


> This might be the stupidest thread ever on AAAC.


It started off well enough but then went the way of far to many internet exchanges. I appreciate the OP and will certainly consider taking a new look at the Florsheim offerings in the future.


----------



## maximar

What the heck is going on? Is this about Florsheim still? This started out as a very good thread. Someone needs to start an "I hate Florsheim thread" and move on.


----------



## greekgeek

My Pet said:


> These are from a 1975 Florsheim catalog. Little mention of the Royal Imperial line, but the Kenmoor appear as part of the Imperial set.
> 
> Note the mention, but not appearance, of the Golden Harvest AKA Band-Aid finish:
> 
> There's also an _Albany_ longwing (there were other Albanies, such as a monkstrap) that is depicted as part of the Florsheim Flexibles line.
> 
> Dialing back to 1973, the Kenmoor did appear on the main line as well as the Imperial line. Finding this, I was willing to be wrong about the link Frosejr posted being Kenmoors, but I compared the medallion brogues and they were, in fact, different. Not to mention the overall shape and single sole...
> 
> Since the pictures of the Imperials were mightily similar to those in 1975, I didn't scan those out of the sanctity of bandwidth.


Great scans! The Kenmoor also came in a saddle style shoe at one point as well.


----------



## Nick V

greekgeek said:


> Price points have nothing to do with claiming a Chevy (Chery?) is made to Cadillac quality but for the labor used.
> 
> You have yet to address the comments in the OP as regards to quality of materials used and instead insist on pressing a "price to value" argument, which incidentally, I never directly addressed and is not the thrust of my posts.


Who wrote this:

Nice pic, and I agree they are good for what they are. The comments in the OP make them out to be something they are not.

I'll spare the forum this insainity and respond via pm.


----------



## greekgeek

Nick V said:


> Who wrote this:
> 
> Nice pic, and I agree they are good for what they are. The comments in the OP make them out to be something they are not.
> 
> I'll spare the forum this insainity and respond via pm.


The import Kenmoors are a decent shoe, they look good, but yes I do think they are misrepresented in the OP and do not think that the Florsheim reps comments represent the shoes accurately. Maybe they will in days to come.

I guess the hyperbole of my first post in this thread has clouded the issue, or perhaps I am simply a poor communicator. I'll refrain from posting in it also, feel free to PM me and that goes for others as well if you would like to discuss.


----------



## My Pet. A Pantsuit

Two "haters gonna hate" macros in one day? This forum's gettin' progressive!


----------



## maximar

Is this kid the hater or the hatee?


----------



## Cardinals5

My Pet said:


> These are from a 1975 Florsheim catalog. Little mention of the Royal Imperial line, but the Kenmoor appear as part of the Imperial set.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's also an _Albany_ longwing (there were other Albanies, such as a monkstrap) that is depicted as part of the Florsheim Flexibles line.


Might I speak for everyone in saying that whenever you're bored, please scan the rest of that catalog and post the whole thing! (or photocopy it and send it to me :devil


----------



## yossarian

I have a question about a pair of Royal Imperials I own. I can't tell where they were made sa it faded. However, the interior stitching is green and there is an oval toward the back of the shoe that reads "Florsheim Imperials." Am I correct to assume that these are made in the USA? If so, I got a great deal when I bought them on ebay a few years back.

Also, what exactly is the difference between Imperial and Royal Imperial. I am pretty sure these are Royal Imperial as the pattern looks the same as my cordovan Royal Imperials. But, like I said, the interior has a Florsheim Imperial label.


----------



## Pink and Green

As long as we're dragging this topic into the woods, what happened to their retail stores? Time was, a Florsheim shoe store was in every mall from here to eternity.

Whassadeal?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Pink and Green said:


> As long as we're dragging this topic into the woods, what happened to their retail stores? Time was, a Florsheim shoe store was in every mall from here to eternity.
> 
> Whassadeal?


I noticed that also.

Bostonian/Hanover all gone too. (Not that I miss those since they went to hell)


----------



## Pentheos

Re: the $225 Kenmoor

I once called a Florsheim outlet store to see if they had any Kenmoors, but they didn't have any in my size. The girl on the phone offered to send me a pair in my size, not seconds or anything, for the outlet store price (which was if I recall correctly $165). I didn't buy them, but I think I will. At that price point, they're probably an excellent deal.


----------



## AlanC

All the Florsheim mall space was rented by J&M.


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## WouldaShoulda

maximar said:


> Is this kid the hater or the hatee?


Band kids are the BEST!!

(Except those stoner drummers)


----------



## sgnt13

we have one in philadelphia at liberty place (16th and Chestnut) if you're in the area. james (i think that's the salesman's name) has been there for something like 30 years and knows his stuff. if that doesn't do it for you, sherman brothers is around the corner and carries a great selection of alden, allen-edmonds and others.

FYI - the imperial line has been on sale in store for the last two years at 25% off.


----------



## yossarian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Band kids are the BEST!!
> 
> (Except those stoner drummers)


I wouldn't consider shiny, shiny pants and bleached-blond hair to be trad.


----------



## sailgclass

yossarian said:


> I wouldn't consider shiny, shiny pants and bleached-blond hair to be trad.


Whoa, out of left field a wilco reference. I read that line several times to myself before I realized what it was. Nice.

To get back on topic, I recently purchased on eBay a pair of 5 nail vcleat longwings that I believe are royal imperial and had new soles heels put on. Ill be posting pics soon to see how well I did.


----------



## Cardinals5

yossarian said:


> I have a question about a pair of Royal Imperials I own. I can't tell where they were made sa it faded. However, the interior stitching is green and there is an oval toward the back of the shoe that reads "Florsheim Imperials." Am I correct to assume that these are made in the USA? If so, I got a great deal when I bought them on ebay a few years back.
> 
> Also, what exactly is the difference between Imperial and Royal Imperial. I am pretty sure these are Royal Imperial as the pattern looks the same as my cordovan Royal Imperials. But, like I said, the interior has a Florsheim Imperial label.


From your description, you have a pair of Imperials and not Royal Imperials. Royal Imperials, or at least all that I've seen, have "Royal Imperial" stitched in the oval inside the shoe. I think there were two different colors of stitching, but the green color is the most common (usually green on black, but sometimes on "natural" linings as well) IIRC, the other color was blue.

The two most obvious distinctions between the Royal Imperial and Imperial lines is that Royal Imperials have a higher heel cup to wrap the heel better and a higher throat (where the lacing climbs your forefoot). The higher heel and throat were designed to give a finer level of fitting. All other parts of the shoe are identical - rows of stitching, type of heel and sole, brouge patterns, etc.


----------



## Got Shell?

maximar said:


> Is this kid the hater or the hatee?


Is the clarinet trad?

And, more importantly, is this a young trip?!?!?!


----------



## yossarian

Cardinals5 said:


> From your description, you have a pair of Imperials and not Royal Imperials. Royal Imperials, or at least all that I've seen, have "Royal Imperial" stitched in the oval inside the shoe. I think there were two different colors of stitching, but the green color is the most common (usually green on black, but sometimes on "natural" linings as well) IIRC, the other color was blue.
> 
> The two most obvious distinctions between the Royal Imperial and Imperial lines is that Royal Imperials have a higher heel cup to wrap the heel better and a higher throat (where the lacing climbs your forefoot). The higher heel and throat were designed to give a finer level of fitting. All other parts of the shoe are identical - rows of stitching, type of heel and sole, brouge patterns, etc.


So if I understand you correctly, the pattern on Imperials and Royal Imperials is the same? I had not realized that. In any event, my cordovan Royal Imperials and my black Imperials have the same pattern, neither of which is the same as the current Kenmoor pattern (the pattern is closer to the current Carleton pattern).

Is it safe to assume that these black Imperials are made in the USA?


----------



## Cardinals5

yossarian said:


> So if I understand you correctly, the pattern on Imperials and Royal Imperials is the same? I had not realized that. In any event, my cordovan Royal Imperials and my black Imperials have the same pattern, neither of which is the same as the current Kenmoor pattern (the pattern is closer to the current Carleton pattern).
> 
> Is it safe to assume that these black Imperials are made in the USA?


In all the examples I've seen the brouge patterns on Imperials and Royal Imperials are the same. That said, one might find differences when comparing patterns across time (e.g. Imperials from 1960 v. 1990).

Unless the shoe specifically states "Made in India" (usually on the underside of the tongue) it's almost 100% certain that your black Imperials were made in the US.


----------



## My Pet. A Pantsuit

Cardinals5 said:


> Might I speak for everyone in saying that whenever you're bored, please scan the rest of that catalog and post the whole thing! (or photocopy it and send it to me :devil


I'll probably have a little time to do that early next week... as long as the Florsheim Brothers don't object to it!


----------



## Cardinals5

Since I always like pics, I thought I'd add these, which are some of the better images I could find of the current Florsheim Kenmoor lineup. As I suspected, the previous pair of Florsheim made in India corrected grain longwings I had were not the "Kenmoor" since they didn't have the split heel. 

Does anyone know when Florsheim started using the split heel on their Kenmoor line? Next step is to go visit a pair in a B&M store and check the leather.


----------



## trolperft

Teacher said:


> I don't know a specific date, but I can tell you they're American-made. As soon as the Kenmoors went to India, the all-leather heel was replaced with a half-leather/half-rubber toplift. That was _roughly_ 2000 (I don't know the exact date).


But I think it's earlier than 2000 because I've seen USA made kenmoors with combination heel.


----------



## The Deacon

It _was_ earlier than 2000. About 3 or 4 years ago, I owned and sold two pair of shell cordovan Florsheims NOS that I guessed were from 96 or 97 because they had the split heel like above and the more cushioned, slightly longer heel pad on the black footbed with a gold color scripted "Florsheim" and Imperial like above, with the same green stitching in the collar. I started a post about one of the pair that yachty(sic?) among others answered asking if it was wise to try to wear the 11EEE pair if my normal size was 12D. They fit but I needed the cash and sold them to that German seller who promptly listed them and sold them for a 400% profit.:icon_pale:


----------



## WillisGeigerFan

This will be a long post so I hope that you will indulge me. Once you glaze over the meaningless back-and-forth inappropriate drivel and attack posts, this is actually a very interesting thread. I happen to own 4 pair of made in India Kenmoors:

Burgundy smooth longwing
Cognac pebbled longwing
Burgundy smooth blucher
Black smooth blucher

And, today, at the Post Office a family member will be picking up for me these NOS made in the USA Black pebbled longwings: 



I intend to post a full review on the NOS Kenmoors upon inspection, lotioning, etc.

I think that this thread is so volatile because the Kenmoor is such a legendary shoe with a made in the USA heritage that it becomes very easy to paint a broad brush when stating that the shift of production overseas was the end of the manufacture of a quality shoe. I think that, like most things, the truth lies in the gray areas.

From my perspective, just by looking at construction from top to bottom, my NOS made in the USA Kenmoors must be superior to modern-day Kenmoors. Look at the heels, soles, v cleats, etc. I'll reserve judgment on the pebbled leather until I actually get my hands on it. But it's hard to square that they make them like they used to. The caveat is that compromises may have been made on construction toward the end of US production to make my comparison moot, but it's fair to state that the 2010 Kenmoor cannot compare facially to the 1989 Kenmoor. 

I do know that my made in India Kenmoors are among the most durable shoes that I've ever owned and I got them at good price points. The two smooth bluchers were purchased when the Florsheim shops around the country largely shut down and I recall vividly paying $99, yes $99, per pair. This was roughly 2000-2002 timeframe. I'm still wearing them today in an infrequent rotation (maybe one pair once a week in alternating weeks) where they still have the original heels and soles. I will state that they act like corrected grain shoes insofar as polish and cream having little impact on them. I have been very careful and do not have any scuffs that so mar the shoe as to make them unwearable, but I'd prefer them to be less impervious to maintenance.

Of the two India Kenmoor longwings, purchased last year at roughly $159/pair on sale at one of the remaining Florshem shoe shops, I must say that there is a noticeable difference in quality between the Cognac pebbled and the Burgundy smooth. The Cognac pebbled acts like full grain. I got my first scuff a week ago, applied Florsheim amber shoe polish, and voila the shoe is as good as new. I was told that a scotchguard type product is applied to the Cognac pebbled that gives it that new in the box plasticky shine and that shine has faded with time to resemble the "good old made in the USA" cognac color. It's a great shoe and my only complaint is that the rubber portion of the heel does not hold as firmly as it should (it's not hanging or anything) to the heel base and it should have been better glued or otherwise applied. The Burgundy longwing acts more like corected grain. They scuff - especially on the sides and back a bit more than I would expect given how careful I am as a shoe wearer - and do not take well to polish and cream. They do not take to polish and cream to a greater degree than the smooth bluchers.

So what's the verdict on made in India Kenmoors insofar as my experience? The plain, smooth bluchers are top-notch. I've gotten great longevity and I expect to have them with me for another decade at least.
The cognac pebbled are fantastic, head-turners (I've literally seen heads turn at meetings or on the train to get a look at them), and, I expect to get 20 years out of them, at minimum. The Burgundy smooth longwings worry me about longevity, but I will remain hopeful. 

Lastly, once the NOS shoes are conditioned, and otherwise tan, rested, and ready, I will share my observations.

Regards to all and stay positive and long live the Kenmoor.


----------



## Coleman

^A great post. Thank you. You've finally, I believe (unless someone contradicts you and confuses me again), straightened out my confusion on the current Kenmoors.


----------



## Theoden

WillisGeigerFan,

I was eyeing the Cognac Pebbled Longwing. 

I own the black smooth India Made Kenmoor Longwing. Bought it 3 yrs ago. Treated it like crap (no shoe tree), etc. I decide to take it to my cobbler near my office. He told me it's an incredible shoe. I had it re-resoled once. Looks like new -- excellent shoe. It's been a twice a week shoe in my rotation.

So...the Congnac Pebbled Longwing -- it looks gorgeous. I will wear it for business casual. Would you wear it with khakis and jeans? How would you compare it to the Allen Edmonds McNeil?


----------



## dport86

I have 8 pairs of vintage Florsheim Imperial or Royal IMperial kenmoors, including a NOS pair of Royal Imperials in pebbled brown. Many are late 70's, early 80's vintage. Others may be older. All are v-cleat. 

IME, the Royal IMperials fit differently--and looking at the bottom the last seems subtly different. Wider at the ball and narrower through the instep, more like an Alden modified or a spade toe J&M (of course, nowhere near that pronounced). The brown pebbled grain leather on the NOS Royal IMperials is a different shade (richer brown, a little less orange), more subtle pebbling (more like the Alden Alpine Grain but longer, more linear texture) and softer than my two Imperial cognacs.

I know Teacher here said he couldn't tell the difference between the leathers in the two lines except for maybe more hand antiquing. I can see more of a difference in mine. And the Royal Imperials definitely fit my feet better...


----------



## WillisGeigerFan

Theoden said:


> WillisGeigerFan,
> 
> I was eyeing the Cognac Pebbled Longwing.
> 
> I own the black smooth India Made Kenmoor Longwing. Bought it 3 yrs ago. Treated it like crap (no shoe tree), etc. I decide to take it to my cobbler near my office. He told me it's an incredible shoe. I had it re-resoled once. Looks like new -- excellent shoe. It's been a twice a week shoe in my rotation.
> 
> So...the Congnac Pebbled Longwing -- it looks gorgeous. I will wear it for business casual. Would you wear it with khakis and jeans? How would you compare it to the Allen Edmonds McNeil?


I wear the cognac pebbled longwing with khakis frequently and with tan gabardine trousers during the winter. I do not wear them with jeans - I'm sure that it's suitable; but it's not consistent with my personal style. I tried on the the AE longwings and honestly the last was uncomfortable for my foot in any size variation so I had to pass. I do think that AE is likely a better-made shoe, but it's nearly twice the price at first quality that you can regularly (such as at Florsheim outlets still 1st quality) find the Kenmoor. To me, the Kenmoor's general looks, durability, and comfort make it a bargain in the $159 range.


----------



## Theoden

Where can I find them for $159?


----------



## Luftvier

I will always, for personal reasons, have problems buying an Indian-made Florsheim.

There might not be a shoe at that price point that's the same value, but I'd rather pay the extra for US made - be it Florsheim, AE, or Alden.

...either that, or keep thrifting older US Florsheims.


----------



## WillisGeigerFan

Theoden said:


> Where can I find them for $159?


Florsheim has outlet shops. I think that they're as low as that price..maybe $169 or $179 but not more as far as I can remember. Call Wrentham, MA, and ask for the manager; he's very cooperative. For all I know, he might do mail order for you. Note that the Kenmoors at the outlet are first quality.


----------



## Nick V

WillisGeigerFan said:


> I do think that AE is likely a better-made shoe, but it's nearly twice the price at first quality that you can regularly (such as at Florsheim outlets still 1st quality) find the Kenmoor. To me, the Kenmoor's general looks, durability, and comfort make it a bargain in the $159 range.


Spot on. And they are made pretty well also.


----------



## WillisGeigerFan

So the NOS Kenmoors arrived. Wow. There is a substantial quality difference between the pair that I linked to in an earlier post and the made in India Kenmoors. 

For starters, the pebbled black leather upper of the NOS is very supple and not nearly as stiff as made in India. I only conditioned the NOS shoes out of complete paranoia as they felt as though they were manufactured yesterday and seemed to show no age whatsoever. I felt no dryness, stiffness and honestly they weren't that thirsty for conditioning lotion. I next applied black shoe cream and it took it nicely. 

Now it rained here today and I wasn't going to expose them to wet pavement, but I had to put them on after doing all these things, so I did so in the house. First thing I noticed, the tongue interior lining is of a much softer, pliable, and higher quality leather than the made in India Kenmoors. Additionally, the full lining is soft and supple. And for those poor souls that were hoping the pair may just not fit right so that they could have a shot at acquiring them, I'm sorry to report that they fit nicely. Just a hair loose which is standard with Kenmoors for me and, once I apply tongue pads, all will be perfect except for covering that soft tongue lining (sounds like shoe porn!).

Once they go out for a "test drive," I will report further.

I should add that these shoes are of a much higher quality than my 2009 purchased AE McAllisters. There is no comparison honestly. These Kenmoors would cost in my estimation upwards of $425 if manufactured to this quality today. This does not undermine that the current Kenmoor is still a terrific shoe at a great price point at the Florsheim outlets or mainline stores (on sale).


----------



## NoVaguy

My thoughts:

1) About the whole greekgeek/OP/Nick V. flap, I will just note that point 2 of the OP says that "If these were made by Americans they would retail over $300."; point 4 says "But it's not an Alden. It's not an Allen-Edmond." Allen Edmonds, in fact, is about a $300 shoe (I think the MacNeil has a MSRP $325 and some others are about $300 or so). So there is a little disconnect there - putting these two comments together, it were made by Americans it would be over $300, yet it would still be worse than Allen Edmonds/Alden. So there is a bit of a disconnect between statements 2 and 4.

2) I have the old Florsheim Royal Imperials, and the mid-2000's and older Allen Edmonds (I have nothing from the black liner era and onward). They're all very comparable shoes, I may give the edge to the earlier stuff, especially the earlier Florsheim Royal Imperials and earlier AE's I've handled. Here's why I like AE - I really, really, really liked the tan leather insoles that they used. If there is one thing I would bring back, that would be it. The poron stuff is okay, but the leather insoles were great.

3) I did obtain the made in India Kenmoors (tan grain wingtip) and was not impressed. It's a very decent shoe, but the tan grain didn't look that good and the soles felt hard. So I sold them off without wearing. Maybe they would have broken in nicely, I don't know. I never got to that point.


----------



## Reds & Tops

AlanC said:


> I thought all pebble grain was made with some sort of embossing. How is "good" pebble grain made?
> 
> It would be nice if Florsheim would revive the Royal Imperial line by returning it to US production and making shell versions, even have the v-cleat. They could target the line to the same type of stores that carry Alden. If they really want to restore the Florsheim name that would do it.


This post makes me think. What would the cost to Florsheim really be? Who would make them?

I would assume they'd have to go to Alden or Allen Edmonds to get something worth selling, right?


----------



## Reds & Tops

What happened to this thread/forum. 

Alan/Jovan/Moderators - can there be some rule that personal battles such as what took place here (and seems to be taking place more often) must be via PM? 

Sheesh.


----------



## Ed Reynolds

WillisGeigerFan said:


> Florsheim has outlet shops. I think that they're as low as that price..maybe $169 or $179 but not more as far as I can remember. Call Wrentham, MA, and ask for the manager; he's very cooperative. For all I know, he might do mail order for you. Note that the Kenmoors at the outlet are first quality.


Please be kind to a newbie.

The Florsheim Imperials work well with dark colored (charcoal, dark grey) suiting? I am just going into a real work environment and would love to pull the trigger on some AEs, but I think that will have to wait. For now, I will try to pick up a Florsheim.

It seems that Florsheim pre-1990s is made in the USA, quality shoe.

1990s-early 2000s, made in India, with sometime suspect quality, but shoe still at a decent pricepoint.

mid-2000s-today improving quality, even among its made in India models.

Are there other Florsheim outlets in the Northeast aside from Wrentham? Its a pain to get there SE Mass from here. What about retailers? Department stores? Macys? JCPenney? Thx


----------



## Motorpsycho67

I've got a question.....

I have an NOS pair of Kenmoors in black pebble grain with the V-Cleat and 5-nail waist. My question is this... Do they have to say 'Made in USA' to be US made? Mine don't say Made in USA or Made in anywhere else. I notice in the pair in the pics posted above that Made in USA is stamped on the inside.


----------



## WillisGeigerFan

Ed Reynolds said:


> Please be kind to a newbie.
> 
> The Florsheim Imperials work well with dark colored (charcoal, dark grey) suiting? I am just going into a real work environment and would love to pull the trigger on some AEs, but I think that will have to wait. For now, I will try to pick up a Florsheim.
> 
> It seems that Florsheim pre-1990s is made in the USA, quality shoe.
> 
> 1990s-early 2000s, made in India, with sometime suspect quality, but shoe still at a decent pricepoint.
> 
> mid-2000s-today improving quality, even among its made in India models.
> 
> Are there other Florsheim outlets in the Northeast aside from Wrentham? Its a pain to get there SE Mass from here. What about retailers? Department stores? Macys? JCPenney? Thx


I only know of Wrentham and the retail store at the Prudential Center in Boston. If you wish to pay full price, then there are many options including Nordstrom, Zappos, Florsheim.com, etc. Note that Nordstrom stores do not seem to carry the Kenmoor (only online).


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## Nick V

I forwarded this thread to a friend of mine at Florsheim. I don't think he read the last few days comments/questions.
Here is what he said:

"Nick.
I read everyone's comments with interest. there are a few misguided "soles" out there.lol...But as you said, the Kenmoor is a great value for the price. I'd like to correct the comment made by one individual. Yes, there were many long wing bluchers made by Florsheim in their regular line over the years, but they were never labeled Kenmoor. One of the names I remember was the Varsity.
Another point of information is that back in the day Kenmoores and other styles like the Yuma, Drexel and Tuscany were labeled Royal Imperial. The label was changed to Imperial not because the quality diminished but because the company wanted to use the Royal Imperial label for a more fashionable line of quality footwear they developed.
Regards"


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## De-Boj

*Florsheim outlets*

Gents, here is a link to a list of Florsheim outlets.

https://www.outletbound.com/cgi-bin/stores_by_name.cgi?StoreName=Florsheim

I know from visiting the outlet in PA, that you can get these in the $160 range. IMHO when you consider this price point (instead of the $225 MSRP), The OP Seems to be right on target.


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## Doctor Damage

I think we can all agree that vintage Florsheims were better made than current Florsheims, but after all is said and done, they don't make vintage Florsheims anymore and eBay examples will dry up someday. We have to compare apples to apples, which means forgetting about vintage Florsheims and looking only at what's available today. The modern Florsheims still might not measure up to the big names, but that's okay since as Nick has pointed out price is a factor in this debate. I'm intrigued to see him post that construction quality is being underestimated, even if the quality of uppers is not great.

I also think there is a danger that modern Florsheims will become the "new Church's", i.e. the brand that everyone loves to hate, rightly or wrongly.


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## yossarian

De-Boj said:


> Gents, here is a link to a list of Florsheim outlets.
> 
> https://www.outletbound.com/cgi-bin/stores_by_name.cgi?StoreName=Florsheim
> 
> I know from visiting the outlet in PA, that you can get these in the $160 range. IMHO when you consider this price point (instead of the $225 MSRP), The OP Seems to be right on target.


I purchased my burgundy Royal Imperials in Lee, MA around 3-4 years ago and I think I paid around $160. Those were made in Spain. They were incredibly stiff at first, but have become very nice over time. I don't feel any difference between those and my made in the USA black Imperials.


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## WillisGeigerFan

Nick V said:


> I forwarded this thread to a friend of mine at Florsheim. I don't think he read the last few days comments/questions.
> Here is what he said:
> 
> Nick,


I cannot read the comments, Nick. Maybe it's an error on my end?


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## HistoryDoc

WillisGeigerFan said:


> I cannot read the comments, Nick. Maybe it's an error on my end?


I can't read the comments either.


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## Ed Reynolds

yossarian said:


> I purchased my burgundy Royal Imperials in Lee, MA around 3-4 years ago and I think I paid around $160. Those were made in Spain. They were incredibly stiff at first, but have become very nice over time. I don't feel any difference between those and my made in the USA black Imperials.


May have to check out the store in Lee, or evenn the one mentioned in the Pru Center. Both are much easier to get to than Wrentham (thats just kind of random).

I would say for someone on a budget, Florsheim seems to be a good quality shoe at a good price.

(another one who could not see the comments.)


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## Nick V

Nick V said:


> I forwarded this thread to a friend of mine at Florsheim. I don't think he read the last few days comments/questions.
> Here is what he said:
> 
> Nick,


Sorry...tried to c&p a personel email he sent. As they say "that dog didn't hunt". I'll send it tonight from my home office.

"Nick.
I read everyone's comments with interest. there are a few misguided "soles" out there.lol...But as you said, the Kenmoor is a great value for the price. I'd like to correct the comment made by one individual. Yes, there were many long wing bluchers made by Florsheim in their regular line over the years, but they were never labeled Kenmoor. One of the names I remember was the Varsity.
Another point of information is that back in the day Kenmoores and other styles like the Yuma, Drexel and Tuscany were labeled Royal Imperial. The label was changed to Imperial not because the quality diminished but because the company wanted to use the Royal Imperial label for a more fashionable line of quality footwear they developed.
Regards"


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## Got Shell?

The shell longwings I've seen in pics look great. I do have to say I really don't like that streaky finish they put on the soles; it looks like wood. It wouldn't keep me from buying a pair though. How do the soles wear compared to AE/Alden double leather soles? I also noticed in the ads how they call it a "v plate" instead of our "v cleat". V plate sounds less harmful to wood flooring!


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## Racer

Now that the vitriol has abated, I want to reiterate that I'm very interested in learning more about the new Kenmoors. As communicated by the OP, the Florsheim rep stated that these shoes are not Aldens or Allen Edmonds, but IME the Allen Edmonds ain't what they used to be either. I have noted a significant drop in both quality of materials and quality of construction in recent and new-manufacture AEs compared to older examples, yet the price has certainly not gone down.

I prefer to buy newly-manufactured shoes. So, if Florsheim is now producing a well-constructed shoe with materials close to what the current AEs are using, and doing it for less money, I will be shopping for them. In that light, any observations or opinions from the shoe professionals and knowledgeable, *open-minded* shoe-buyers amongst us will be much appreciated.


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## HistoryDoc

Thanks Nick. Very informative.


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## WillisGeigerFan

Racer said:


> Now that the vitriol has abated, I want to reiterate that I'm very interested in learning more about the new Kenmoors. As communicated by the OP, the Florsheim rep stated that these shoes are not Aldens or Allen Edmonds, but IME the Allen Edmonds ain't what they used to be either. I have noted a significant drop in both quality of materials and quality of construction in recent and new-manufacture AEs compared to older examples, yet the price has certainly not gone down.
> 
> I prefer to buy newly-manufactured shoes. So, if Florsheim is now producing a well-constructed shoe with materials close to what the current AEs are using, and doing it for less money, I will be shopping for them. In that light, any observations or opinions from the shoe professionals and knowledgeable, *open-minded* shoe-buyers amongst us will be much appreciated.


My only AE experience is the McAllister wingtip when it was reintroduced at a lower price of $279. It's a great shoe, the last is perfect for my foot, and the quality is very, very strong. Comparing a $279 retail shoe to a de facto first quality retail price for the Kenmoor at the Florsheim outlet of $159 is a foolhardy exercise in my opinion - and I am saying so most respectfully. The McAllister seems insofar as the upper goes superior to current Kenmoors as well as the lining and footbed. But it's roughly 80% more expensive so I paid for those quality features. I needed a balmoral dress shoe and the McAllister fit the bill. But for everyday work and sometimes jeans needs, the Kenmoor is a phenomenal buy - especially if you go with the cognac or black pebbled - and if you take care of them (shoe trees, do not overwear, use overshoes in inclement weather, and apply cream periodically).


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## WillisGeigerFan

Another update. I am wearing my made in India cognac pebbled wing tips to work tomorrow and lined the NOS made in America ones against them and noticed another difference...the NOS soles are thicker by about 25%. So, while today's soles are definitely still double-soled and quite thick, they are still a compromise compared to the vintage edition.


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## Sean Archer

I have a pair of brown pebble longwings by Hanover LB Sheppards and a pair of Indian black pebble Kenmoors. I like the Kenmoors but the leather treatment they put on it is certainly plasticky. Also, the pair of Kenmoors I had before (Indian made, same shoe, just got exchanged) got cut/split open somehow and the leather underneath was grey. The topmost grain layer is also extreme thin. My Hanovers had a few nicks (Ebay, sigh) and the leather was brown underneath the surface layer. 

Different tanning techniques, different quality, different beast.

Also, in the past 1.5 years of 1/week wear, my Kenmoor's leather insoles are cracking (I wore deadstock Hanover LBS shell bluchers for the same amount of time and they are perfectly fine). The soft leather pad also peeled back but I superglued it back down. The insole is all leather, with a thin foam layer covered by soft leather at the heel with a sewn in Florsheim patch.

End result is this: I bought those nearly new Hanovers on Ebay for $100, and I bought some Hanover shell plaintoes for $200. I would be insane to buy Kenmoors for $225. As is stands I bought them for $159 from the outlet. These days, I have enough shoes that I can quietly sit back and only pounce on the really good shoes on Ebay.


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## Sean Archer

WillisGeigerFan said:


> So the NOS Kenmoors arrived. Wow. There is a substantial quality difference between the pair that I linked to in an earlier post and the made in India Kenmoors.
> 
> For starters, the pebbled black leather upper of the NOS is very supple and not nearly as stiff as made in India. I only conditioned the NOS shoes out of complete paranoia as they felt as though they were manufactured yesterday and seemed to show no age whatsoever. I felt no dryness, stiffness and honestly they weren't that thirsty for conditioning lotion. I next applied black shoe cream and it took it nicely.
> 
> Now it rained here today and I wasn't going to expose them to wet pavement, but I had to put them on after doing all these things, so I did so in the house. First thing I noticed, the tongue interior lining is of a much softer, pliable, and higher quality leather than the made in India Kenmoors. Additionally, the full lining is soft and supple. And for those poor souls that were hoping the pair may just not fit right so that they could have a shot at acquiring them, I'm sorry to report that they fit nicely. Just a hair loose which is standard with Kenmoors for me and, once I apply tongue pads, all will be perfect except for covering that soft tongue lining (sounds like shoe porn!).
> 
> Once they go out for a "test drive," I will report further.
> 
> I should add that these shoes are of a much higher quality than my 2009 purchased AE McAllisters. There is no comparison honestly. These Kenmoors would cost in my estimation upwards of $425 if manufactured to this quality today. This does not undermine that the current Kenmoor is still a terrific shoe at a great price point at the Florsheim outlets or mainline stores (on sale).


Awesome! This confirms what I figured looking at picture 2 of the tongue. The leather seems to be brown throughout and thick. Vegetable tan? vs the crappy grey chrome tanning of today.


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## Sean Archer

NoVaguy said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> 1) About the whole greekgeek/OP/Nick V. flap, I will just note that point 2 of the OP says that "If these were made by Americans they would retail over $300."; point 4 says "But it's not an Alden. It's not an Allen-Edmond." Allen Edmonds, in fact, is about a $300 shoe (I think the MacNeil has a MSRP $325 and some others are about $300 or so). So there is a little disconnect there - putting these two comments together, it were made by Americans it would be over $300, yet it would still be worse than Allen Edmonds/Alden. So there is a bit of a disconnect between statements 2 and 4.
> 
> 2) I have the old Florsheim Royal Imperials, and the mid-2000's and older Allen Edmonds (I have nothing from the black liner era and onward). They're all very comparable shoes, I may give the edge to the earlier stuff, especially the earlier Florsheim Royal Imperials and earlier AE's I've handled. Here's why I like AE - I really, really, really liked the tan leather insoles that they used. If there is one thing I would bring back, that would be it. The poron stuff is okay, but the leather insoles were great.
> 
> 3) I did obtain the made in India Kenmoors (tan grain wingtip) and was not impressed. It's a very decent shoe, but the tan grain didn't look that good and the soles felt hard. So I sold them off without wearing. Maybe they would have broken in nicely, I don't know. I never got to that point.


After 1.5 years, the sole is still hard. Compared to my 2 Hanover LBS double soles, these are abnormally hard.


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## Sean Archer

One final note: if you end up going the AE route, steer clear of "polished cobbler" and "black custom calf". Polished is CG apparently (never owned a pair) and the CC appears to be heavily coated, creases like CG, and does not absorb conditioner.


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## Sean Archer

One other thing, when evaluating any shoe, look at the tongue. You can very quickly spot if the leather is brown all the way through and thick. Also, if it looks too shiny/plasticky on Ebay, it's probably worse in real life. Happy hunting.


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## maximar

Sean Archer said:


> One final note: if you end up going the AE route, steer clear of "polished cobbler" and "black custom calf". Polished is CG apparently (never owned a pair) and the CC appears to be heavily coated, creases like CG, and does not absorb conditioner.


Almost all of AE shoes in black are black custom calf, most especially the Classics. That is a little disturbing.


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## Sean Archer

maximar said:


> Almost all of AE shoes in black are black custom calf, most especially the Classics. That is a little disturbing.


Indeed. It's not as bad as full on low end CG, but it's heavily coated. When I press my wet finger onto it and rub it, it squeaks a bit. :crazy:

Gotta be careful with a middle-of-the-road brand like AE. They do some amazing things (walnut calf is GODLY) but they also do some dodgy things.


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## steve-d

I recently had Nick Valente's shop ( https://www.bnelsonshoes.com ) install new V Cleat heels on my Florsheim gunboats. Unfortunately, as many of you know, one cannot post attached pics here. Here's a link to show the great quality of work done and the now, like new shoes!! Just great.

www.styleforum.net/t/333044/help-identifying-dating-florsheim-royal-imperial-wingtips#post_7108329

Steve


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## 127.72 MHz

Mr. Mac said:


> I just had a great conversation with our Florsheim Rep and one of the Florsheim corporate officers. They gave me some great info about some of their products. They have a fantastic new line coming out in fall that will interest some of you: a well-made gunboat in some really cool colors, very well made with a comfort insole, leathers from the Horween Tannery (not shell - though they do make shell for Duckie Brown) that will retail at $170. And the craftsmanship looked really nice.
> 
> But that's not the reason for the post. I grilled them for a while concerning the Kenmoor. There's a lot of opinions about this shoe floating around here so I wanted real answers from the horses mouth. The following are facts (according to the man responsible for production):
> 
> 1.) The Kenmoor is a full-grain leather shoe. The smooth leather is NOT corrected-grain. The Pebble grain finish is NOT stamped. The leathers are sourced from both the US and abroad, depending on availability.
> 
> 2.) Production was shipped overseas for labor costs. Period. The lasts, machines, methods, etc are all identical to the shoes made in the US. The quality standards are not lower. Quote: "If these were made by Americans they would retail over $300."
> 
> 3.) It is the only Royal Imperial left in the line. It was the best-selling of the old RI's and the only one they continued making after shipping production to India. They merged it into the Imperial line.
> 
> 4.) It's a $225 shoe. This point really made sense to me. The rep said, in essence, "Look, this shoe is as well made as they were when we moved production to India. The quality is top-notch. But it's not an Alden. It's not an Allen-Edmond. But it is the best $225 welted shoe on the market."
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> EDIT: What impressed me most was that these guys really are serious about restoring the Florsheim name. The quality is really improving on their new line made for small retailers.


I have read though the entire thread. My initial thoughts were to just let well enough alone, but I cannot.

I have been a Florsheim customer for many years. Years ago when I learned that they were moving production to India I got hold of one of Florsheim's national distributors to have him source me a new pair of Imperial heavy wings to add to the three other pairs of Florsheim Imperials I owned at that time. He could not have been a nicer fellow and he managed to get me a NOS pair from a dealer in Dallas.

The Florsheim distributor told me the exact same thing about the Indian made models that the Florsheim people told you. So I thought, I love these heavy wings and I am going to get a pair of Imperials and Kenmoors from India,....After all they are full grain made on the exact same machines that were shipped from the U.S., so what could there be to risk?

Answer,*....Both pairs were absolute trash!* Specifically, the leather on the Indian made pair(s) *are not* the same as the leather that is on my newest pair of American Made Florsheims. (This goes for the leather on the tops of the shoes as well as the leather on the soles.) The leather on the Kenmoors got rained on lightly once and it soaked right through and stank like no leather on any of my other sixty some odd pairs of leather shoes from any manufacture. *The leather used on the Indian made Florsheims is clearly inferior to the leather that is on any other pair of shoes I own.
*
I subsequently was told by someone at Florsheim whom I called to voice my dissatisfaction to that they source different leather for the Indian made Florsheims. (which stands to reason.)

So, bottom line, I dispute what the Florsheim reps told you. Yes I am formally saying the people you spoke to at Florsheim and the guy that Nick from B. Nelson spoke to were either intentionally lying or they are ignorantly, innocently spewing the company line.

Not calling you a lair Nick so don't mess up the three pairs of my shoes you're converting to Dainite for me!


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## jamesn67

I know this post has been around a while but I just came across it and wanted to just add my own experience and to ask some questions relative to that.

To begin let me say that I own many pairs of Florsheim Imperials & Royal Imperials. Primarily vintage
made in USA models but a few new made in India Kenmoors. I will not comment on CG leather specifically as I am obviously not a leather expert, but to my eye the leather on the new Kenmoors looks very plasticy. It also does not take polish at all as mentioned by privous posters. The leather on the PTB in particular seems very thin. I won't compare the quality of the made in India models to my older models as that has been covered. My biggest complaint on the newer made in India varieties ist that they are horribly uncomfortable. I own 30 year old vintage longwings that far surpass the comfort level of these newer shoes. Leterally every pair of made in the USA Florsheims I have are significanty more comfortabe. I would like someone to explain to me if the made in India varieties are
just a labor source change why are they so different from a comfort perspective? I keep my made in India models to use as winter beaters but I honestly rarely wear them as they are so uncomfortable and before you say they need to be broken in they are used and feel no different than the brand new ones I have tried. I have even owned a pair of made in India shell cordovans...never even new they existed...and they were also terrily uncomfortabe.

As for AE, I own several pairs of AE calf leather Macneil & Leeds and to my eye the leather is much better than the made in India Kenmoors and they are significanty more comfortable. Considering most folks buy their shoes at retail price not outlet, for what you get the AE models are a better buy than the Florshiems in my opinion and I truly love my vintage Florsheims so I don't say that lightly.

So my questions to the folks in the know...Why are these made in India models so much different from a comfort perspective if they are so similar to the made in USA and if they are not CG leather how are they processed such that they have a look that's much like CG?


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## [email protected]

Some pics of the new Made in India Shell Florsheim Kenmoor's:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...ell-Florsheim-Kenmoor-s&p=1619644#post1619644


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## maximar

Florsheim? Can you hear us? We want made in USA! Gunboats!!
Don't forget though, Made in India price and discounted!!


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## crispyfresh

lmao at this thread... Good arguments both for and against the Kenmoor. I think McNeils are the way to go...


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## BuddyJ

Just picked up some Kenmoor 93602s. What color should the sole edges be; black for brown? Mine obviously need some attention and the original color is questionable.


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## MNJ83

My "new old stocks" 93602's have black edged. Use black dressing


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## BuddyJ

MNJ83 said:


> My "new old stocks" 93602's have black edged. Use black dressing


Thank you for the reply. Black it is.


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