# Business Casual... Tie?



## jay687 (Dec 26, 2007)

I always assumed business casual meant no tie. However, looking upon some people here and there coming home from work, they all have ties.

So, now I dunno what to do, I start an internship this monday and am wondering if I should be wearing a tie or not. If only I could remember how many, if any, people wore ties when I went to their office for my interview.

Anyway, to help you guys answer this, I'll be more specific about where I'm working to see if anyone happens to know.

I'll be working for a Big Four accounting firm in NYC and while they say business casual, that could mean more than one thing and so that's where I am (clearly) confused.

I have the chinos, dress shirt, and dress shoes part down. Oh, and while it seems everyone here hates on rubber soles, I can't afford numerous pairs of leather soled shoes right now, nor do I care to walk long distances in them. Plus, not like I'm wearing those ridiculous clunky rubber soled shoes. 

Sorry for the sidetrack!

Anyway, so, tie or no tie? I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.

Actually, just another question too:

For really hot days (95+), polos? Short sleeve dress shirts? Rolling up sleeves? I prefer to roll up my sleeves really, but on even hotter days being able to wear short sleeved something is nice. But not even sure if any of that is acceptable, so if you have a mroe definitive answer, let me know.


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## ProphetHammer (Jun 10, 2008)

As a declared newbie I unashamedly second Jay's question. What are the "rules" regarding rolling up sleeves, particularly in hotter climates?


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

A lot of the folks here think of "casual" in the classic sense, meaning a sport coat or a less serious suit. They're a very small minority. The general public thinks it means, "no tie and no jacket" or occassionally, if they want to be more "dressy," either "tie, but no jacket" or "no jacket, but tie."

I personally would recommend you take a safe course and wear a suit the first day, and remove various articles until you're wearing what everyone else is.

No polo shirts.


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## jay687 (Dec 26, 2007)

Well, it was already said in an email to me that it was business casual attire the first day.

So, no go on the suit.

I also, considering it's been upwards of 90 degrees, and even over 100, recently doubt anyone will wear a jacket either. Even though for business casual I would probably opt for a jacket if the weather called for it.

So, if it is tie or no tie, which would you do? I guess, if I take the same sort of advice, you might say tie to be safe and then remove it if noone else wears one?

I suppose the thing is... what is worse, being the only one with a tie or only one without? That's if I unfortunately choose to go the wrong way. Let's hope I get lucky and everyone makes the same decision as me though. 

Now, what decision to make... I'm just not sure yet.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Do you have any contact person available over the weekend, via email, phone etc? Business means communicating. If not, wear a tie. You can always take it off.


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## emerson (May 28, 2007)

I may be able to help you. I work for a Big Four firm in Portland, OR. I will say on the West Coast it is universal you will not wear a tie if you are business casual.

I have heard that the various NYC offices do tend to dress more conservatively. I personally do not wear a tie without a jacket.

I know people who do not share this concern, and they happily wear ties (on occasion). In my office, there are a few people who have "tie Tuesday" if that helps to give you an impression of the "should I wear a tie" requirement. 

If you are still concerned, wear a tie. You may always slip it off. Be more concerned with making a good impression. Good eye contact, smiles, and enthusiasm will win the day. But then, I'm sure you already know that.


Good luck.


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## Flashy (Mar 15, 2006)

Just a suggestion: on your first day, dress up just a bit. Blazer, slacks, and tie. If you get to work and no one is wearing a tie or jacket, you can remove them. Make note of your coworkers attire for future reference.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Were I in your shoes, I would wear the tie...as others have observed, you can always take it off, if such becomes necessary. Same with a sportcoat/blazer...wear it and , should you be overdressed, take it off.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

jay687:

Good advice here. And we expect a full report on Tuesday!

For Business Casual you might want to review the article on Dress Codes linked from the Home Page:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/cracking-the-dress-code/

*BUSINESS*, also EXECUTIVE- or CORPORATE CASUAL: The level beneath the business suit and tie, which can consist of a suit or sport jacket and/or sweater, and an *optional tie*.​​​​


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## bluesmobile_440 (Mar 17, 2008)

As stated previously on the thread, my best advice is to wear more and dress down to the appropriate level when you get to work. Your managers will take notice that you were as prepared as possible.


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## cowboyjack (May 18, 2008)

I get invitations to business casual events all the time and find slacks, blazer, shirt and tie to be the uniform of the day. 

Like others have mentioned, you can always take off the tie if you are out of place, but it can also make you distinctive as someone who pays attention to sartorial details.

Even in the hottest climates, a lightweight long sleeve shirt is really no hotter than a short sleeve shirt and as an adult I rarely roll up my sleeves, even in NYC in August, though lightweight poplin or linen trousers and, ahem, boxers, make all the difference in the world.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Excellent advice here from all! Best of all, try to do some recon and find out whether anyone wears a tie. If impossible, then - yes - overdress a little. As days get hotter, you should consider the shirt material. Many people don't get the differences and don't realise - or take the time to consider - that a light poplin or linen will serve better in the heat than a heavy oxford herringbone or twill.


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

sounds like the prefect occasion for a *knit* tie.

you might as well bring a weather-appropriate jacket too. you can always drape it over the back of a chair. or wear it if it's one of those offices with arctic air-conditioning.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I think "business casual" which evolved from "casual Friday" means different things to different companies and offices. For example I have a friend who works at a law firm where they have to wear suits with white shirts except on casual Friday when they can wear sport coats/tie/dress slacks. Another friend works at an office where the normal mode of dress was dress pants or khakis with dress/sport shirt but casual to them meant jeans and polos. 

In other words, I think it often depends on the starting point; however, when I am told to wear business casual to something I generally interpret it to mean anything from dress pants/dress shirt to khakis/polo shirt. I usually find some in both. Basically, anything in between suit/tie and jeans/polo.

Cruiser


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

I don't know if many people feel this way, but in my opinion a button down collar dress shirt with tie looks more casual than a point or spread collar and could be a good compromise.


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## jay687 (Dec 26, 2007)

Well, thanks for all the advice you guys.

Unfortunately, my lightweight sportsjacket does not fit me anymore (chest has grown from 36 to 38 from the weight lifting), so that can't be done.

I do have a blazer though that fits, would khaki chinos, white shirt, broad belt/shoes, brown (checkered with different shades) tie and the navy blazer work? 

I always assumed blazer and sportscoats were really both equally casual for the most part. The blazer is dark, but it's not THAT heavy. 

But would that work?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

wheredidyougetthathat said:


> sounds like the prefect occasion for a *knit* tie.
> 
> you might as well bring a weather-appropriate jacket too. you can always drape it over the back of a chair. or wear it if it's one of those offices with arctic air-conditioning.


A knit tie is a good idea. I don't like to wear a shirt and tie without a jacket. If it is a really casual office, I'd rather wear a jacket with no tie. I don't like the khakis and polo shirt look for work. For me, business casual means a navy blazer, button down shirt and tie, khakis and loafers.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> I don't like to wear a shirt and tie without a jacket. If it is a really casual office, I'd rather wear a jacket with no tie. I don't like the khakis and polo shirt look for work.


I agree completely. You can never go wrong with a jacket whether you have a tie on or not. In fact, it seems to me that the jacket or suit worn with an open collar is almost becoming the norm in many offices not to mention just about any television talk show you care to tune in.

After I retired and starting working the part-time gig in the Mayor's office I was wearing a polo shirt every day that I wasn't going to be doing something that required a coat and tie. This was me in my office on a typical day:

https://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0019ti0.gif

After about six months I ditched the polos and started wearing a button down collar shirt with a blazer/sport coat. It's still a very casual look but definitely up a couple of notches over the plain polo.

Cruiser


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Cruiser, there's that flag behind you again.

As someone who works in the financial corporate culture of NYC business casual is dress slacks/chinos and either dress shirt or polo. However, people often dress it up with blazer or sport jacket.  I second the motion to bring a tie just in case.


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## Diggy18 (Apr 11, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> either "tie, but no jacket" or "no jacket, but tie."


?! :crazy:

I had to read that a few times . . .:icon_smile:


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## ilikeyourstyle (Apr 24, 2007)

Wear a suit and tie. Take off the tie if you arrive and your boss and co-workers are without ties. Then focus on remembering some names instead of the tie count.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Diggy18 said:


> ?! :crazy:
> 
> I had to read that a few times . . .:icon_smile:


Err-- I wish you hadn't. It made it right past me with just one reading.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

jay687 said:


> I'll be working for a Big Four accounting firm in NYC and while they say business casual, that could mean more than one thing and so that's where I am (clearly) confused..


Man the world sure has changed. After I graduated from UCLA with a degree in accounting I worked for a year for one of the Big Seven or maybe the Big Eight CPA firms - I forget and think it got as high as the Big Nine before the firms started to merge.

We wore suits not because we were told to, but we all knew that was what was acceptable at that time. I still remember once when I was working in the 'back office' at a Savings and Loan firm on the second floor where there was no access for customers and my senior told me to put my suit coat back on.

During that year I decided that auditing was boring as were most accountants (no offense intended) and I had enough GI Bill left to go to graduate school.

Anyway, I have seen so much discussion here in the past few years about Business Casual that I think any firm that has that as a dress code would be doing not only its employees a favor, but also the rest of us a big favor by defining exactly what they mean by that term.

I think it is much worse than some party invitations that leave people confused as to what type of dress is expected.

Cheers, Jim.


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## jay687 (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks for all the help on this. I meant to reply to this sooner, but haven't been online recently.

Anyway, I ended up going with chinos, white shirt, tie, and blazer. 

Only one other person (maybe 2?) had a blazer out of the 25 or so male interns and employees. I didn't mind though. I actually liked wearing the blazer. There were a bunch of people who just went a tie and no blazer. 

And now after being there two weeks, it seems that really it's just managers and partners who will wear tie/blazer/sportscoat/etc. It's actually somewhat expected from them. 

So I've usually been going tieless for the most part. And if it's a little chilly in the morning, or weather isn't so nice in general, I have worn a blazer/sportscoat. Will continue to do same. 

Again, thanks for advice everyone. 

And for those entering Big 4 firms... that is the general consensus for all of them (since have seen many other interns, associates, and so on from the other firms as well and they all have worn the same type of thing).

I'd say, and you know, it could just be because in general, people nowadays would rather not dress up, go as casual as possible. So it's usually khakis, dress shirt, dress shoes. And too often have I seen shoes that IMO are too casual (worn out dock shoes) or just in need of some maintaince. To each their own I suppose.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

"And now after being there two weeks, it seems that really it's just managers and partners who will wear tie/blazer/sportscoat/etc. It's actually somewhat expected from them."

Interesting.


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## ilikeyourstyle (Apr 24, 2007)

I work at such a firm in Canada, and the typical outfit is different. The partners wear a suit and tie about 95% of the time. The rest of the staff generally wear wool pants and a dress shirt. The extreme upper (50+ years old) and lower (under 30 years old) ends of the age range will wear ties, while the middle-aged (30-50 years old) of the workers are generally tieless.


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## ozonemania (Jun 23, 2008)

I can empathise with your predicament, but I think it's so sad that you have to fret over making sure you wear what everyone else is wearing.

If your individual style prefers to dress it up a bit, and express your sartorial interests, I don't see why you shouldn't, as long as it's within generally accepted parameters of business attire.

You are in New York, after all... I can't think of a better place in America where you would be able to experiment and express yourself better.

If done tactfully, dressing well can only mean good things for the work environment you are in. After all, as my grandpa told me... you dress well for the benefit of others, not for yourself!

If you wear really nice clothes and act like you're better than the rest because of it you're going to cause trouble. If you wear really nice clothes and act like you're one of the rest then you might just earn some respect for it.


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## ItalianGent (May 2, 2008)

ozonemania said:


> If you wear really nice clothes and act like you're better than the rest because of it you're going to cause trouble. If you wear really nice clothes and act like you're one of the rest then you might just earn some respect for it.


That is excellent advice, and very true. I've always felt that in order to be *truly stylish*, then can be no affectation whatsoever.

As far as how "business casual" is defined, I really think it does cause more confusion than anything else and gives clothing stores more ways to market their clothes. I also tend to think that the definition of "business casual" exists purely for people who are generally lost as far as what they should be wearing. In other words, a "dumbed down" definition for people who need instructions on how to dress for an occasion. Dressing up gives you far more possibilities to make a good impression that dressing down does. So I guess in the end, in my mind anyway, "business casual" means "don't come in here wearing fatigue shorts with a Twisted Sister t-shirt". It's like a reverse definition - it tells you what *not* to wear, more than what you *should* wear. It's a definition created by people who don't know about fashion, taste or style.

Done ranting for now. :aportnoy:


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Simple:

Look at what others are wearing.

When you are dressing to fit in to a company, look at what others are wearing, and emulate as best possible. Luckily you can take 2 or 3 ties to work and it isn't a hassle to carry. Change out on the job as needed that first day. Take a proper tie for business, a lighter color tie, maybe a bow tie.

I would wear a dress shirt the first casual day, and work the tie. It would be odd that the polo wearers would fault you for a dress shirt sans tie. The next time around you can match the predominant trend in the office without fear or fuss.


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