# Khaki Comparison



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

As, I'm sure many others on this form do, I wear to work, on most days, a button down shirt, dress shoe (cordovan saddle shoes or loafers), and a pair of nice khakis. I keep a Blazer in in my car with a tie in the pocket in case I have to meet with a client or end up downtown for lunch. But 9 days out of 10, I have khakis on; typically they've been LL Bean's "Wrinkle-Resistant Dress Chinos, Natural Fit Pleated," in size 46" waist, with cuffs, in British Khaki color. They meet the exact specifications I like, but recently though, I've become frustrated with the quality of these. My newer pairs are failing before a couple of pairs that I've now had for several years. They've also gone up in price. If I'm going to switch away from Bean, I need help deciding what to switch to; here are what I perceive as my options, let me know what y'all think:

- Lands End - or do y'all see this as being of the same quality as Bean?
- Charleston Khakis - there was a thread about a week ago that didn't seem to provide very high opinions of Berle though
- Bill's - these are more $$ than I am hoping to have to spend, and the few pairs I've seen in person seem more casual than I would like to wear to work. I'm guessing I would want the M1P, does that sound like the comparable fit to the above Bean pants?

Am I missing anything? are those assumptions right?


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

It really boils down to personal preference, I think. I favor Bills, although Mrs. 32 finds them overly baggy. I don't care. They are super comfortable and they last forever. When they are no longer suitable for casual business, they'll keep going several more years for gardening and raking leaves and dog walking and what have you. The down side for you is that they are not wrinkle resistant, and you'd have to get used to that. I buy them secondhand and have way too many pairs, from super light that work great on hottest summer days to the Bullard field pant. Between initial cost and alterations, I probably average $30-$40 a pair. If durability is vital, and to me it is, you can't beat 'em.

I also have a pair of Hiltl khakis that are dressier than Bills, certainly less baggy, but at $200 or so per pair, not affordable--thank God for the Thrift Exchange, where I also got my very best khakis, made by Oxxford from Neiman Marcus. I don' t even want to think what those cost brand new. On the more affordable level, I like very much a pair of J. Crew essential khakis I have with a button fly. They are cut much like the Hiltl khakis I have.

So many choices, but I think your challenge will be getting accustomed to trousers that aren't wrinkle resistant. If you're the sort who doesn't mind the secondhand route, I would try some Bills on eBay and see how you like them. I'm sorry that I can't be more help comparing any of these with LL Bean--the only pair I've owned were called Double L or something like that. They had an expandable waist, which I liked, but once I tried Bills there was no going back. Patrick, really, is your man on this, I think. If I recall correctly, he tried out virtually every pair of khakis known to man a few years back in search of the perfect fit. Maybe he can weigh in.


----------



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

32rollandrock said:


> It really boils down to personal preference, I think. I favor Bills, although Mrs. 32 finds them overly baggy. I don't care. They are super comfortable and they last forever. When they are no longer suitable for casual business, they'll keep going several more years for gardening and raking leaves and dog walking and what have you. The down side for you is that they are not wrinkle resistant, and you'd have to get used to that. I buy them secondhand and have way too many pairs, from super light that work great on hottest summer days to the Bullard field pant. Between initial cost and alterations, I probably average $30-$40 a pair. If durability is vital, and to me it is, you can't beat 'em.
> 
> I also have a pair of Hiltl khakis that are dressier than Bills, certainly less baggy, but at $200 or so per pair, not affordable--thank God for the Thrift Exchange, where I also got my very best khakis, made by Oxxford from Neiman Marcus. I don' t even want to think what those cost brand new. On the more affordable level, I like very much a pair of J. Crew essential khakis I have with a button fly. They are cut much like the Hiltl khakis I have.
> 
> So many choices, but I think your challenge will be getting accustomed to trousers that aren't wrinkle resistant. If you're the sort who doesn't mind the secondhand route, I would try some Bills on eBay and see how you like them. I'm sorry that I can't be more help comparing any of these with LL Bean--the only pair I've owned were called Double L or something like that. They had an expandable waist, which I liked, but once I tried Bills there was no going back. Patrick, really, is your man on this, I think. If I recall correctly, he tried out virtually every pair of khakis known to man a few years back in search of the perfect fit. Maybe he can weigh in.


I'm not huge on second-hand, because I find that the clothes are usually on their last limb by that point anyway, plus, for pants, find 46" waist second hand isn't exactly easy. This is also why I've never even bothered with J. Crew.

As for those Double-L's, Bean uses the same fits for those, the dress khakis are just a nicer material and come in half inch increments for lengths (though I often go unfinished and have them hemmed by my local tailor).


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

rwaldron said:


> I'm not huge on second-hand, because I find that the clothes are usually on their last limb by that point anyway, plus, for pants, find 46" waist second hand isn't exactly easy. This is also why I've never even bothered with J. Crew.
> 
> As for those Double-L's, Bean uses the same fits for those, the dress khakis are just a nicer material and come in half inch increments for lengths (though I often go unfinished and have them hemmed by my local tailor).


True enough, which helps explain why I have always had good luck selling larger sizes on the bay. Not everything is threadbare, but you do have to be careful about with whom you deal. I should think that Bills would be good given the size you seek. Sierra Trading Post used to have them at affordable prices. Might want to check.


----------



## nonartful dodger (Nov 24, 2011)

While I don't own a pair, I've heard positive reviews of Jack Donnelly khakis. As far as thrift stores go, I have seen Bill's with the tags still on them. It's rare but it does happen. I will second 32rockandroll and say that the J. Crew khakis I own have held up well. I tried the LLB's and didn't care for the feel mainly from the treatment they used on it.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Have you considered Jack Donnelly khakis? There are must-iron, however. They offer relaxed and slim fit. I'm not familiar with the LL Bean khakis. But I did try the Orvis ultimate khaki and found it too baggy.

I recently ordered a pair of Jack Donnelly and am happy with the fit and quality. Certainly a few steps above JCrew, I think.


----------



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> Have you considered Jack Donnelly khakis? There are must-iron, however. They offer relaxed and slim fit. I'm not familiar with the LL Bean khakis. But I did try the Orvis ultimate khaki and found it too baggy.
> 
> I recently ordered a pair of Jack Donnelly and am happy with the fit and quality. Certainly a few steps above JCrew, I think.


I considered Jack Donnelly, but the largest waist size they produce is 44. I didn't think about Orvis, but that actually makes my decision harder, as I've now gone from 3 choices to 4. Not the worst of problems I suppose.



nonartful dodger said:


> While I don't own a pair, I've heard positive reviews of Jack Donnelly khakis. As far as thrift stores go, I have seen Bill's with the tags still on them. It's rare but it does happen. I will second 32rockandroll and say that the J. Crew khakis I own have held up well. I tried the LLB's and didn't care for the feel mainly from the treatment they used on it.


Thrift stores around here aren't as generous with the nice brands. Its most just stuff from JC Penny's that has already been worn close to death. the nicest thing I've seen in a New Orleans thrift store was a Brooks Suit full of moth holes.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

rwaldron said:


> Thrift stores around here aren't as generous with the nice brands. Its most just stuff from JC Penny's that has already been worn close to death. the nicest thing I've seen in a New Orleans thrift store was a Brooks Suit full of moth holes.


Sometimes it's a matter of sticking to it. I go to a minimum of two stores a day, usually four--the same stores--and I've gone more than a month without finding anything, especially during the summer months when they stop putting out anything with long sleeves. OTOH, there are hot streaks when you just can't miss. It's not for everybody, that's for sure.


----------



## linklaw (Aug 1, 2007)

If you watch STP and subscribe to their emails, you can oftentimes get Bills Khakis for less than $75 per pair. I just bought 2 pairs of british khaki M2 driving twills for $130 shipped.


----------



## nonartful dodger (Nov 24, 2011)

rwaldron said:


> Thrift stores around here aren't as generous with the nice brands. Its most just stuff from JC Penny's that has already been worn close to death. the nicest thing I've seen in a New Orleans thrift store was a Brooks Suit full of moth holes.


I don't want to come across as too pushy as thrifting isn't everyone's idea of acquiring, but the one I go to is part of a chain and has two locations in NO. Both are Red, White, and Blues with one on Jefferson Hwy and the other on LaPalco Blvd. My mind would twist in all directions if NO doesn't have more scores than here, where I have found shells, older BB, Press, Chipp, etc. in great condition. Good luck.


----------



## KayGee (May 19, 2013)

I had a similar experience with the Bean khakis, and tried the Lands End brand. I was equally unimpressed, and am reluctantly back to Bean.


----------



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

I'd rather this not turn into a thread about the relative value of thrifiting, as I am still looking for a comparison of the aforementioned brands of khakis, and guidance as to which I should purchase, but...



nonartful dodger said:


> I don't want to come across as too pushy as thrifting isn't everyone's idea of acquiring, but the one I go to is part of a chain and has two locations in NO. Both are Red, White, and Blues with one on Jefferson Hwy and the other on LaPalco Blvd. My mind would twist in all directions if NO doesn't have more scores than here, where I have found shells, older BB, Press, Chipp, etc. in great condition. Good luck.


To that I will reply with a quote: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." - Obi-Wan

I suppose I just don't have the cojones to frequent the Red, White, and Blue establishments too often, but I have, especially when one was a few blocks from my high school. The racks were frequently completely empty, as storms of people would wipe them clean in minutes, and the staff had no desire whatsoever to restock. In terms of quality, RW&B was a place one went as a high school or college student for costumes and not much else. the items that were there were mostly t-shirts or uniforms from places like McDonalds. The better thrift stores are Bloomin' Deals (Junior League) and the Uptown Salvation Army. Those can still be dismally short on stock. I think New Orleans thrift store underbelly, as a whole, might suffer from a case of demand far outpacing supply. Between the large number of welfare recipients and the HUGE number of hipsters the demand is. As for the folks that would be giving up high quality clothing in this area that would end up for sale, I think that the Crescent City's citizens that have this clothing often subscribe to the "Buy it new, then wear it out, make do, then do without" philosophy, and most of it is worn out before making it to a thrift store.



32rollandrock said:


> Sometimes it's a matter of sticking to it. I go to a minimum of two stores a day, usually four--the same stores--and I've gone more than a month without finding anything, especially during the summer months when they stop putting out anything with long sleeves. OTOH, there are hot streaks when you just can't miss. It's not for everybody, that's for sure.


Unfortunately, my employer has an awful compulsory attendance policy that involves me being in the office instead of search for clothing treasures. It might not make sense to most on this forum, but I do like to keep my power bill paid. I don't know too many thrift stores open outside of my typical 8-7 workday, and those that may be certainly aren't on my way home from work.

So, back to khakis...


----------



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

KayGee said:


> I had a similar experience with the Bean khakis, and tried the Lands End brand. I was equally unimpressed, and am reluctantly back to Bean.


That was what I was afraid of with LE, thanks for clearing that one up. I guess its between Charleston (quality concerns also?), Bill's (pricey, and maybe too casual for the office), and Orvis (the unknown variable in the equation possibly?) then.


----------



## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Actually, you might want to check out the Belk house label (I think it's called Saddlebred). I got one pair when I needed an extra for a golf trip while in the south, and they have performed very well. Quite reasonably priced, also.


----------



## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I'll vote for Orvis. I have several pairs of Charleston Khakis and they are fine, I have no complaints, but Orvis makes a good pant and it looks a bit more dressed up than Bill's. All the Orvis pants I have have worn like iron and they will replace any pair that you feel has prematurely deteriorated.


----------



## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

rwaldron said:


> That was what I was afraid of with LE, thanks for clearing that one up. I guess its between Charleston (quality concerns also?), Bill's (pricey, and maybe too casual for the office), and Orvis (the unknown variable in the equation possibly?) then.


Over the past year, Lands' End chinos have improved dramatically. Their "Original" must-iron chinos are of good quality and weight, as are the non-irons (slightly different style to them).


----------



## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I have a lot of chinos. Stacks of them.

They range from the same LL Bean wrinkle-resistant dress chinos to the Retro chinos JC Penney had many years back. I have baggy, not so baggy, and positively tight. I have mostly plain fronts but a few pleated. I have tan, British tan, olive, light grey, sort of a greyish blue, medium blue, faded red, far too red, orange, and yellowish.

I have cuffed and plain hem. I have chinos I iron (if necessary) and chinos that devolved into Fish Pants. And all points in between.

Why? Because I am single, bored and insane.

I am 5' 9" and usually a 36 waist, though that can change depending on this formula:

TW = (B+J) - OB
BR x ST

(Total weight equals Ben and Jerry's consumption minus oat bran divided by brown rice times stream time)

So depending on diet and level of activity I sometimes prefer an M1 with a 37 waist, or maybe a Double L in 35.

I also have no rear end to speak of.

Here's my take:

LL Bean: My last pair of old, untreated Double Ls is about at the Fish Pant stage, alas. That cut fit me better than anything before or since. Dockers D3 Classic is the closest currently available chino.

The wrinkle resistant dress chinos I have are at least five years old and they're fine. I confess I don't wear them much. I like wrinkles.

The treated Double Ls are fine, the fit isn't as good for me as the old ones, but they are durable, and the leg opening is small enough so they don't swallow up a pair of loafers.

Which is the main problem with Bill's M1s and M2s. M3s are okay in that regard, but I need to be on the oat bran/brown rice side of the spectrum (see formula, above) to wear those.

For the substantial man, the M1P is a good solution, with its forward pleat and overall bagginess merely hinting at the fact there is somebody inside, somewhere.

Bill's last forever and their poplins are hands down the most comfortable hot weather pants I own. Seconds from STP and eBay, as noted, help keep the cost down.

Orvis chinos are excellent value on sale, which they are frequently. Fit is similar to M2. Untreated.

Ralph's outlet chinos have that middle of the road fit too, but I find them a little on the flimsy side. They do come with a prehemmed inseam of 29, which I need and appreciate.

I have a couple pairs of Kevin's, very substantial, and one of O'Connell's house brand, also substantial. I wear these in colder weather.

I have not tried Charleston or Jack Donnelly.

And then there is Lands End, Home of the Moving Target. Heritage chinos, regular chinos, traditional regular heritage chinos, canvas heritage regular slim fit skinny lumberjack with little MSNBC glasses and stubble chinos, aaaagh.

As far as it is possible to generalize, I have found that LE's "tailored fit" in reality means "less huge." It is generally a good thing for The Man With No Butt.

LE also gets top marks for inseams to the quarter inch and cuffs to spec.

But here's the thing with LE - If you find one of their products that you like, buy a lot of them, because they won't be the same a year later.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

linklaw said:


> If you watch STP and subscribe to their emails, you can oftentimes get Bills Khakis for less than $75 per pair. I just bought 2 pairs of british khaki M2 driving twills for $130 shipped.


Indeed. With seen pair(s) of Bills Crammerton Twills hanging in the closet, I paid less than half of retail price for each one of them. There are bargains to be had...just shop carefully and spend wisely!


----------



## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

I can't believe no one has mentioned BB yet but those are my go to khakis. Don't know if they go to a 46 but with the after father's day sale coming, they can be had for a decent price. I've found them to be quite durable. Also a couple of cuts to choose from.


----------



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

CMDC said:


> I can't believe no one has mentioned BB yet but those are my go to khakis. Don't know if they go to a 46 but with the after father's day sale coming, they can be had for a decent price. I've found them to be quite durable. Also a couple of cuts to choose from.


They stop at 44, and even when I wore a 44, I found them a bit thin (cut, not material quality) in the thighs. I have a pair folded up somewhere from that I can still squeeze into on a good day. Also, they shrunk in length a good bit, and are now high waters.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

CMDC said:


> I can't believe no one has mentioned BB yet but those are my go to khakis. Don't know if they go to a 46 but with the after father's day sale coming, they can be had for a decent price. I've found them to be quite durable. Also a couple of cuts to choose from.


If you are talking about BB's Clark's Advantage chinos, count me as a +1.


----------



## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

The thing I hate about Patrick is that he keeps talking about stuff of which he has no experience.


----------



## Walter Denton (Sep 11, 2011)

Some comments on my experience with Bills and Orvis:
Bills Cramertons are nicely substantial and the M2 cut seems midway between slim and baggy to me. They hold up well but I don't believe they are currently being offered. They may be similar to the current Bills Bullard field pant although I have no experience with those. I have several pairs of Cramertons but I have never paid more than $60 for a pair. I like the fact that they are made in the US but I don't like their full price. They are my favorite khakis and even though I live in North Carolina, I don't mind wearing them in the summer. Many others may feel they are too heavy for summer use, however. Bills regular khakis are also nice although considerably lighter weight. They are well made but I just prefer the weight of the Cramertons.

I find Orvis Ultimates to be quite similar to the M2 Cramertons in cut and fabric. they are comfortable and good looking. Their regular price, especially when buying 2 pairs, is lower than Bills at full price. My only issue with Orvis is that the buttons don't seem to be sewn on very well. This is fairly easily remedied, however.

I haven't tried Jack Donnelly khakis yet but I may give them a try based on the positive comments I have read here as well as the lower price than Bills.

I purchased two pairs of Charleston khakis in the past year and my main complaint is that the pockets seem to be made of a fabric very nearly like tissue paper. They developed holes within a few weeks. I wouldn't buy another pair. The older, made in US, Charlestons seem to have a better reputation.


----------



## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Patrick06790 said:


> I have a lot of chinos. Stacks of them. They range from...


The greatest chino post ever! If Shakespeare wore chinos, fished, and lacked a posterior, he would've written this...


----------



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

Patrick06790 said:


> I have a lot of chinos. Stacks of them.
> 
> They range from the same LL Bean wrinkle-resistant dress chinos to the Retro chinos JC Penney had many years back. I have baggy, not so baggy, and positively tight. I have mostly plain fronts but a few pleated. I have tan, British tan, olive, light grey, sort of a greyish blue, medium blue, faded red, far too red, orange, and yellowish.
> 
> ...





Tiger said:


> The greatest chino post ever! If Shakespeare wore chinos, fished, and lacked a posterior, he would've written this...


Seriously, Thank You Patrick!


----------



## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

I hate LE so no experience. BB stopped making nice khakis years ago. Bill's, JD, or Orvis are the only chinos I buy. Hold up well and if you actually are patient, you can score a good deal. I would love to try the brooklyn britches or another hertling pair from Andover or Press, but my Bill's have held up strong. 

LLB also has the USA made hertling's that are dry clean only that would suit your needs. DOn't know the size range as dry celan chinos seem weird to me.


----------



## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

You may find Mr. Tinseth's "tasting" helpful: https://thetrad.blogspot.com/search?q=chino+tasting


----------



## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Eric W S said:


> LLB also has the USA made hertling's that are dry clean only that would suit your needs. DOn't know the size range as dry celan chinos seem weird to me.


To me too, like "fake gabs" which are not "khakis."

I can vouch for Cramerton cloth Bills being dressy enough for most people, without treading into "fake gabs" territory. Other brands use this stuff too, like Epaulet NYC. Not cheap but will amortize well.


----------



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

I've been keeping my eye on STP for the past couple weeks (since y'all first pointed me in that direction); I keep a tab open with a search of Bill's khakis in my size. Everyday, I hit refresh, and everyday, the only results are an M3 and 3 different pairs all only available in pink. Nothing changes... except price. I've noticed the prices steadily climb actually. one of the pink pairs started at $32 - which was almost low enough for me to consider buying them (like I need more nantucket reds looking pants) - but now they are listed at $75. The M3's went from the $80's to $110. How often do new styles get added to STP?

I also looked at Orvis, but their prices aren't exactly cheap either, and I was wondering if those khakis will ever be on sale?


----------



## Walter Denton (Sep 11, 2011)

Try an E-Bay search. I've had good luck finding nwt Bills and Orvis khakis for around $60 or so. My experience with STP for Bills has been the same. I've never found a style I wanted in my size.


----------



## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Walter Denton said:


> Try an E-Bay search. I've had good luck finding nwt Bills and Orvis khakis for around $60 or so. My experience with STP for Bills has been the same. I've never found a style I wanted in my size.


Just scored some nice summer poplins for 40 bucks. There is a seller that lives near the factory and snaps up the seconds/overstock.


----------



## Yuca (Feb 19, 2011)

Tiger said:


> The greatest chino post ever! If Shakespeare wore chinos, fished, and lacked a posterior, he would've written this...


There´s some Einstein in there too.


----------



## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> If you are talking about BB's Clark's Advantage chinos, count me as a +1.


Problem with BB is that they have the horrible non-wrinkle finish that causes them to wear out prematurely. I gave up on them.


----------



## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

I have four pairs of Bills in various fabrics and fits (both M2 and M3) and am extremely pleased. I don't think I'll bother buying any other brand (though I am tempted by Orvis; it would be nice to have more un-cuffed and already finished khakis for when I'm too lazy to iron the cuffs).

Bills are more $$$ than the rest but worth it, in my opinion. They're a great deal despite not being cheap. You can also go for the chamois cloth option if you want something dressier.


----------



## jebarne (Jul 26, 2012)

I hate to plug a vendor, but I had a pair made by Luxire in a very heavy twill fabric for $89. If you have a pair of pants that fits the way you want, they are spot on. 

I am like a 36 waist but from the hips down, maybe a 33 pant is the best fit. They have light twills at $69. I didn't check the no-iron. but my chinos from them are no loops, button adjusters, flap rear pockets with hidden buttons, flat front, with cuffs. Interestingly the cuffs actually button up, which I've not seen. 

I'm going to order 2-3 more pair from them. The other chinos that fit me are the Banana replublic slim fit (their slimmest, only on their website). Size 35 waist. not much cheaper than luxire and the luxire is much dressier and nicer. I ended up at luxire after trying on every type of chino I could find in the mall.

my $.02


----------



## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Another plug for Banana Republic, sort of: I like the cut of their Gavin chinos, not their slimmest but a lot slimmer than, say, Bills M2, and quite classic in overall proportion. But they're still made of that chintzy fabric that gets harder with age instead of softer.

My perfect khakis might be the BR Gavin in Cramerton cloth _with no tacky logos sewn on*_. Or if Bills would simply slim the M2 another couple of inches, without making the rise any shorter.

*I won't wear Ralph's, otherwise pretty nice, for the same reason.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Hayek said:


> I have four pairs of Bills in various fabrics and fits (both M2 and M3) and am extremely pleased. I don't think I'll bother buying any other brand (though I am tempted by Orvis; it would be nice to have more un-cuffed and already finished khakis for when I'm too lazy to iron the cuffs).
> 
> Bills are more $$$ than the rest but worth it, in my opinion. They're a great deal despite not being cheap. You can also go for the chamois cloth option if you want something dressier.


I really like Bill's Cramerton Twills, but their vintage twills were a bit of a disappointment to me because of how quickly the cuffs and pocket seams frayed, thus reducing the trousers to fatigue/utility status.

Should you ever decide to give the Orvis Khakis a shot, take a serious look at the Orvis Ultimate Khakis! Enjoy the hunt!


----------



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I recently put my Jack donnelly khakis through heavy wear, and ended up liking them even more. My next pair will be from them.


----------



## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> I recently put my Jack donnelly khakis through heavy wear, and ended up liking them even more. My next pair will be from them.


Going to give thema try as well. Every other pair of chinos I own are Bill's. Held up very well. STP is a crap shoot. You can honestly score better deals elsewhere.


----------



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Eric W S said:


> Going to give thema try as well. Every other pair of chinos I own are Bill's. Held up very well. STP is a crap shoot. You can honestly score better deals elsewhere.


By the way, others' experiences might vary, but I ordered a 35" in JD (my natural waist is 35") and had to get mine taken in. The next pair I order will be 34". I'm referring to the trim fit.


----------



## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

linklaw said:


> If you watch STP and subscribe to their emails, you can oftentimes get Bills Khakis for less than $75 per pair. I just bought 2 pairs of british khaki M2 driving twills for $130 shipped.


linklaw, et.al.:
No don't go through their e-mails. Take the information and click on their banners on this site - it helps support the site. Thanks.


----------



## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> By the way, others' experiences might vary, but I ordered a 35" in JD (my natural waist is 35") and had to get mine taken in. The next pair I order will be 34". I'm referring to the trim fit.


Good to know. Thanks. -E


----------



## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

I just bought a pair of used Bills on ebay to give the brand a try - $20, $25 with shipping. They were the right size and inseam, the only problem is they are uncuffed. Oh well.


----------



## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Andy said:


> linklaw, et.al.:
> No don't go through their e-mails. Take the information and click on their banners on this site - it helps support the site. Thanks.


Andy: Do you know for sure that if one is buying over the counter at the STP mothership in Cheyenne and mentions this site, even provides a written note, that the site is credited with the purchase? I ask because I tried it a few months ago when a visitor was buying mountain boots. The young sales associate assured me the credit would go here, but the assurance was too quick and vague to be credible. I will be up that way this weekend and might spend a few $100, but if the purchases cannot be credited back to you, I'll wait until I return and click through the site instead. Offerings are not identical, but I will find items close enough. It is a simple business matter. You deserve the appropriate credit when a member here purchases from a vendor you recommend.


----------



## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

According to Greg Donnelly, who sent me an e-mail on the matter, the actual waist measurement on the regular-fit Jack Donnelly khakis is one inch larger than the stated measurement. Thus, the size 30 waist really measures 31 inches. And so on.


----------



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Charles Dana said:


> According to Greg Donnelly, who sent me an e-mail on the matter, the actual waist measurement on the regular-fit Jack Donnelly khakis is one inch larger than the stated measurement. Thus, the size 30 waist really measures 31 inches. And so on.


That would explain why i had to take mine in! Good to know.


----------



## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Charles Dana said:


> According to Greg Donnelly, who sent me an e-mail on the matter, the actual waist measurement on the regular-fit Jack Donnelly khakis is one inch larger than the stated measurement. Thus, the size 30 waist really measures 31 inches. And so on.


True more often than not these days. Sometimes it's more than one inch! A measuring tape is your friend.


----------



## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

Question, out of curiosity, how do the BB Clarks and Orvis Ultimate Khakis (plain front of course) compare in terms of fit?


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
The Orvis Ultimate's present a more generous fit in the caboose and a higher waist, than do the BB Clark's Advantage chinos. The legs of the Ultimates are also roomier and the fabric is more robust.


----------



## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> The Orvis Ultimate's present a more generous fit in the caboose and a higher waist, than do the BB Clark's Advantage chinos. The legs of the Ultimates are also roomier and the fabric is more robust.


+1

To my eye the the Clark have a nicer, straighter line without blousing -- as do Bills M2, which are closer to the Orvis in overall volume. Orvis legs are a bit tapered too.

I have some broken-in Orvis headed for the Exchange -- 32W 30L, with smallish cuffs.


----------



## teamtc (Jun 21, 2011)

By the by, Orvis has a 'buy 2 / save $50 promotion' going on the Ultimates right now. Helps take a bite out of that $17 shipping fee.


----------



## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

Aren't the Orvis ultimates rather large for a slender fellow?


----------



## ChipJ (Feb 10, 2009)

I recently bought a pair of Jack Donnelly's since there were a few recommendations here. I have to say they are made of nice, heavy material BUT the buttonhole completely fell apart after about six months. For me, that makes the quality rating very poor compared to even other bargain brands like Dockers that I bought at Costco (yikes!) for $24. The material does not keep a crease very well either.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

I was deeply disappointed by Donnelly khakis. I obtained a pair and exchanged them several times trying to get a pair that actually fit. It seemed that they are all tagged improperly, about an inch or two too small. The company owner admitted some tag sizing issues to me but said those problems had been resolved. Four pairs later, I beg to differ. I like the material and the extra belt loop. But if they don't fit properly, there's no point.



ChipJ said:


> I recently bought a pair of Jack Donnelly's since there were a few recommendations here. I have to say they are made of nice, heavy material BUT the buttonhole completely fell apart after about six months. For me, that makes the quality rating very poor compared to even other bargain brands like Dockers that I bought at Costco (yikes!) for $24. The material does not keep a crease very well either.


----------



## Mike75 (Jul 18, 2013)

I have several pairs of Donnelly's and have found they all fit true to size. IMO they are on par if not a bit better than Bill's. Especially at the price point.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Mike75 said:


> I have several pairs of Donnelly's and have found they all fit true to size. IMO they are on par if not a bit better than Bill's. Especially at the price point.


When did you acquire your pairs? My exchange fiasco occurred over the past couple months. They were not even close to "true to size."


----------



## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

Bills M1, cuffed and pressed; RL Polo "Classic Chino" flat front, unpressed, sockless with Bean Mocs.


----------



## Mike75 (Jul 18, 2013)

gamma68 said:


> When did you acquire your pairs? My exchange fiasco occurred over the past couple months. They were not even close to "true to size."


Over the past three months. I've found the sizing to be the same as Bill's.


----------



## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Mike75 said:


> Over the past three months. I've found the sizing to be the same as Bill's.


Glad they worked out for you. Not so much for me.


----------



## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

linklaw said:


> If you watch STP and subscribe to their emails, you can oftentimes get Bills Khakis for less than $75 per pair. I just bought 2 pairs of british khaki M2 driving twills for $130 shipped.


I've bought the driving twills as well fromSTP. I've not really been satisfied with them as they seem to stretch as the day goes on and feel excessively baggy. They also have an extremely soft feel that i do not like much as I do other fabric choices. I also bought 2 pairs of Cramerton Cloth Bills when Hansens had a special on them a while back and like them as well as the original Bills.


----------



## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

WillBarrett said:


> Aren't the Orvis ultimates rather large for a slender fellow?


I find them baggy but it's more their shape than overall volume. Bills measure bigger in almost every respect but hang trimmer. Orvis blouse out at the pockets, on me at least.


----------



## rhdeis (Feb 12, 2013)

I am happy with the Izod Saltwater Chinos I get at my local Macy's. Relaxed but not baggy. Soft and untreated. Normally around $60 but frequently on sale for about $35.


----------

