# Fine Wine



## GT3 (Mar 29, 2006)

Let's talk about wine. I'll go first, my all time favorite: Chateau Montelena Estate Cabernet Sauvignon 1997.

Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. - F. M. Hubbard


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

A nice topic, thanks for starting it.

I'll start a little different by saying what I really do not tend to care for and what I do prefer. Contrary to modern fads, I am not a big fan of oaky, tannin rich Sav Cabs. I also do not care for super dry whites with a ton of oak. I'll take a Sutter Home chenin blanc over a $40.00 oaky chardonney any time.

What I tend to like are true vintage ports, ice wines, light, drinkable *balanced* whites, fruity young reds with *mild* amounts of tanin and/or oak. I just bought a case of this excellent muscat from *cough*, CostCo. It is from Australia, Yalumba Muesum Muscat. It is the darkest muscat I have ever seen, full of caramel, butterscotch, and peppery finish. In fact, I have half a bottle left from last night and the sun is setting over the mountains now. I shall see you later gents 

Warmest regards


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

I love minerality in white wines, so I'm very fond of Sancerre, Chablis, Pouilly-Fuisse and especailly Pouilly-Fume. The sheer "cleanliness" of the mineral taste really appeals to my palate. It's SO drinkable, especially around a few years old.

But in reds, I prefer a more balanced, complex taste - a Margaux or similar. I had an early 80s Margaux (can't remember exact year) a little while back that simply blew me away with its complexity.

I also have a massive soft spot for dessert wines. The caramelly full taste of a Sauternes or the soft and fruity sweetness of Tokay or a razor-sharp Eiswein.


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## mano (Mar 17, 2003)

I served a Yalumba Muesum Muscat to accompany tart tatin for a wine group dinner. I have another bottle of it sitting in my basement and look forward to drinking it soon with an after-dinner cigar. Two Hands â€œBrilliant Disguiseâ€ Moscato is a great bargain, but it's at the opposite end of the muscato spectrum; much lighter bodied with a very slight effervensence (SP?).


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## GT3 (Mar 29, 2006)

Wow, I am not yet at the point where I can describe the individual flavors in wine. I don't have very sensitive tast-buds so that is why I prefer the hard hitting reds from California. The whites are just too delicate for me, I can't really taste them effectively.

Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. - F. M. Hubbard


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

been loading up on spanish wines lately... particularly on gran reserva riojas. the brands i don't remember right now, but with real rioja g.r. you could almost never go wrong. 

serve with some tapas like jamon cerrano or olives.


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## Mahler (Aug 5, 2005)

I'm a big fan of mineral white burgundies as well, especially Puilly-Fuisse. With reds, I guess 'earthy' is the keyword. Still experimenting and learning though, and since I'm a student, my price range is usually below $15 a bottle. Recent pleasant surprises: some Malbecs, a cab.sav. from Veramonte in Chile, fresh reds from an Italian winery Falesco, and pinot noir from Sebastiani in California.

Also a big fun of Sauternes, where the $15 limit doesn't apply. I haven't ventured into Chateau D'Yquem yet, though. Is it as good as they say it is?


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

The best bottle of wine I ever had was a 1976 Les Forts de Latour (Chateau Latour's second label), which my wife and I shared about 10 - 12 years ago. Oh, what joy!


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## Mr. Checks (Dec 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by KenR_
> 
> The best bottle of wine I ever had was a 1976 Les Forts de Latour (Chateau Latour's second label), which my wife and I shared about 10 - 12 years ago. Oh, what joy!


I just had a bottle as well. Really the best wine I've had. I can't remember the vintage though (maybe 1999).

Usually I go with Rhone reds and CNP because of their high value, but that Les Forts really had me thinking about upgrading.

And I agree with the other poster in liking little or no oak on my Chardonnays. Let's form a club and march on Kendall-Jackson!


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mahler_
> Also a big fun of Sauternes, where the $15 limit doesn't apply. I haven't ventured into Chateau D'Yquem yet, though. Is it as good as they say it is?


I must admit I haven't tried one of the truly good Yquem's yet. One was on the list at dinner the other day, but I didn't realise it until after I'd has a glass of something else over dinner and I don't like more than one glass if I'm driving.

Next time...

GT3 - it's all about practice and training your nose. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but you can quickly pick up the basic dimensions with practice and a friend to teach you. You don't need to start with pricy wines either. In fact it's better to start with the cheaper wines in some ways because they're less complex and you can just concentrate of recognising the "textbook", stereotyped flavours.


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## GT3 (Mar 29, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Holdfast_
> 
> GT3 - it's all about practice and training your nose. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but you can quickly pick up the basic dimensions with practice and a friend to teach you. You don't need to start with pricy wines either. In fact it's better to start with the cheaper wines in some ways because they're less complex and you can just concentrate of recognising the "textbook", stereotyped flavours.


Good advice. It is sure as hell not easy for me yet. I'll get there.

Are there any wine lovers that would care to do a quick and dirty list about the regions and their famous wines, characteristics, etc.? Maybe we can keep adding to the list and make it grow.

Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. - F. M. Hubbard


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by GT3_
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Sure, I'll do my best with the mineral-rich whites I mentioned a bit later tonight (just got to pop into work first - on call tonight... [xx(] ).


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## Mithras (Apr 21, 2006)

The best I had was a 1978 Vosne RomanÃ©e Conti about 8-9 years ago. So so wonderful...

I'm a big fan of Burgundys. Good ones are complex without being overpowering. But Iâ€™ve started a good cellar of 2000 & 2003 Bordeauxs. i really like South African wines (good ones, not the plonk they export)


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Just remember this one thing about wine: the best wine is the one you enjoy drinking. If it costs $1k for the bottle and you think it tastes like pig swill, it's bad wine. If it cost $5.00 and is in a one gallon box, if you like it, it's good wine.

Oh, Y'quem is that good 

Also, very cool to see someone else has tried the Yalumba and enjoyed it. They have two other types in their "Museum" collection I think. One is a tawny port, which I care for ruby ports. I cannot remember the other, but I would actually like to try both. If anyone else has, please post their tasting.

A recent tasting I had, 1963 Graham's port. I was very lucky to be able to purchase the first glass from the bottle. I am a frequent customer at the local Sullivan's steakhouse and they opened it for me. Black cherries, vanilla and tar at first, opened up to a rich warm honey chocolate with light currants. I used to think people that talked like this were full of it, but with some experience in the varietals you like, these flavours really do become apparent.

Warmest regards


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

As requested by GT3:

OK a rough & ready run-down on the mineral-rich French whites I like and a brief tasting guide too. This is by no means an exhaustive guide, merely what springs to mind in the early hours of the morning!

When tasting a wine, pour a relatively small amount into a good-sized glass. Look for colour first, then gently swill it around and see if it forms little rivulets on the side (this is an indication of alcohol content and age). Take a good long sniff; really get your nose in their and breathe in. At first it'll be difficult to tease out different aspects of the bouquet, so divide it up into big categories - alcohol, fruit, blossom and "others". Then concentrate on each in turn, taking further sniffs as needed. This is all about training your nose to pick up and analyse the different components trying to think of scents you've encountered that match up. The wine experts do this pattern recognition almost instantly. You and I will not be able to do so without lots of practice. Take your time and concentrate. 

Then drink a small amount. Think about the initial flavours and how their change as it moves through your mouth and finally the aftertaste. Again, this takes practice and time. If you're formally tasting, you can spit out the wine. At home, feel free to swallow!

OK, moving on to the characteristics of the white mineral rich wines I mentioned earlier - Pouilly Fuisse, Pouilly Fume, Chablis and Sancerre. These refer to different areas of France. You can classify wines by the grape they're made from and the area they're made from. Your average cheap bottle of plonk is blended from a wide area and so is not very complex - you'll get the grape's usual characteristics coming through but no real depth to the wine. The nose usually hits you over the head with a single note, it's in the mouth and then gone. 

The narrower the area the grape comes from, the more "terroir" dominates. Terroir is basically the overall growing environment of a place that gives it its unique profile. The wines I mentioned are Chardonnays (Pouilly Fuisse and Chablis) and Sauvignon Blancs (Sancerre, Pouilly Fume). What makes them different from the Blossom Hill Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc is the terroir and therefore complexity.

Your "textbook" Chardonnay is full of tropical and citrus fruits, is buttery and often oaky, or at least a bit woody. 

Your "textbook" Sauv. B has lots of green/grassy notes - think cut grass and gooseberries. I don't usually like it, in its normal profile!

The ones I mentioned in both cases are very rich in salty, flinty mineral flavours which cut through the textbook flavours. This creates a much cleaner initial taste and bouquet, but also a more complex and deeper mouthful and a slight salty - sometimes even cheesy! - aftertaste. Sounds crazy and pretentious I know, but try it and concentrate and you'll detect the differences.

Well, that's the best I can come up with off the top of my head and my limited knowledge. Better get back to work; got another call to go to!


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## GT3 (Mar 29, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Holdfast_
> 
> As requested by GT3:
> 
> ...


Thank You Sir!

Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. - F. M. Hubbard


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by GT3_
> 
> Wow, I am not yet at the point where I can describe the individual flavors in wine. I don't have very sensitive tast-buds so that is why I prefer the hard hitting reds from California. The whites are just too delicate for me, I can't really taste them effectively.
> 
> Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. - F. M. Hubbard


Wow, what a refreshing absence of BS!

Train your eye! Then train your brain to trust your eye.


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## GT3 (Mar 29, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by rip_
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Wow, you are so smart. I'll try to train my eye maybe my brain will trust it, but I am not as smart as you.

Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. - F. M. Hubbard


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

Best wine I ever had: '75 Chateau Lafite
Chances I'll ever have a glass again: 1,000,000 to 1
(Partially because I don't drink any more and partially because I couldn't afford it)

My favorite affordable wine was '94 Caymus Special Selection Cab


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rip_
> Wow, what a refreshing absence of BS!




I don't know if this is a bit of a dig at those of us in the thread talking about some of the complexities of wine. If so, I can fully understand that it does seem remarkably pretentious and unrealistic. I can only say that if you try concentrating/analysing what you're drinking, some of the features will start to emerge with practice. It does sound funny though, I'll grant you!

And let's face it, to most people, the ins and outs of suit construction would also seem pretty arcane and full of BS!


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Favorite cheap (under $50) White-Hundred Acre Gold or 03 Sole di Sicilia Chardonnay

Favorite cheap (under $50) Red-Either 03 Santino Zin by Renwood (gee, I wonder why?) or Mouton Cadet

Favorite spendy white-Cristal

Favorite spendy Red- any "Chateau L"

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

^ Off-topic, but good to see you back on the board Gabba. Haven't seen you around recently.

On-topic. Cristal? I've never been a huge champagne drinker, so find it difficult to compare them, but find myself choosing a Moet more often than not. If you've got a few minutes, I'd love to hear your thoughts on different champagnes, because it's an area I have very little knowledge of.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Holdfast_
> 
> ^ Off-topic, but good to see you back on the board Gabba. Haven't seen you around recently.
> 
> On-topic. Cristal? I've never been a huge champagne drinker, so find it difficult to compare them, but find myself choosing a Moet more often than not. If you've got a few minutes, I'd love to hear your thoughts on different champagnes, because it's an area I have very little knowledge of.


Thank you...hopefully, I'll be able to spend a bit more time on the fora in the future, I've just been beyond buisy lately (don't even ask)...but, I still check the boards regurlarly.

Re: Cristal...now, let me first off say that I am not really an expert in wine tasting, as somebody who's very interested in gastronomy I am able to pair wines with food very well, but I'm no where near good enough to discuss the subtleties of one vintage vs another of the same label etc...but I basically "cut my teeth" on champagne when it came to getting my education in wine...I think that I like Cristal for the simple fact that...It's good...for lack of a better term. I mean, it's complex, but at the same time there isnt alot to "figure out" (if that makes any sense)...it was the first really premium wine that I had ever drank, and I instantly loved it because it was completely approachable for me even when I was a "rookie", and still, to this day, it's my favorite. If you're trying to get into Champagne a bit more, I'd deffiantely recommend picking up a bottle, if you want something almost as good at a lower price point (but still not cheap [at least in my estimation]) I'd check out La Grande Damme by Veuve Cliquot, I find that though it doesnt taste the same as Cristal, it falls into the same category...

*****
[image]https://radio.weblogs.com/0119318/Screenshots/rose.jpg[/image]"See...What I'm gonna do is wear a shirt only once, and then give it right away to the laundry...eh?
A new shirt every day!!!"​


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## tbabes (Feb 28, 2006)

I need to become your drinking buddy if the '94 Caymus SS is an "affordable" wine -- not really that much difference in price between the '94 Caymus SS and the '75 Lafite!



Badrabbit said:


> Best wine I ever had: '75 Chateau Lafite
> 
> My favorite affordable wine was '94 Caymus Special Selection Cab
> 
> ...


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## ortolan (May 29, 2006)

*ortolan*

Anyone read the article about the reenactment of the 1976 blind tasting where California cabs reigned supreme over (some) French first growths?

As for the winner, I do like Ridge wines (especially since the winery is about 20 miles away from where I live). Their Santa Cruz Mountains cab is a good value alternative to their pricier Montebello line which won the tasting, though I can't recommend the 2003 SCM as it tastes a bit hot and acidic. The Ridge Zins are good, too; for example, the 2004 Sonoma Three Valleys is a reasonable purchase at $15.


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## nole_guapo (Jan 20, 2006)

Cakebread Chard Reserve......Wonderful example of American artistry at its best.........


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Had an interesting wine last night...*

Last night (in 1987 according to gmac  ) at the wine bar, I had a glass of a very intense sherry, Pedro Ximinez Grand Reserve. It was a 25 year old, intensely sweet, thick, molasses like drink with tons and tons of raisins and chocolate. We had it with a Stilton cheese and some sesame crisps; a sharp cheese is needed to cut through it. Give it a try sometime, it is very intense.

Warmest regards


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## Droog (Aug 29, 2006)

Greetings.

Long time lurker and first time poster. I work a hobby job at the tasting bar in one of the shops of a notable Pennsylvania winemaker. It's great fun, like hosting a party for free.

Responding to GT3, I think Holdfast very well summed up the basic approach to wine sampling. I would add just a few points. We use the five "Ss" to talk about sampling wine, just another handy way to summarize it.

SEE: Besides being part of the sensory experience of wine in its own right, color is a good tip-off of what you are going to smell and taste. Light colors tend to indicate light wines, dark colors (and relative opacity) indicate big wines. Brown-tinged whites and brickish reds indicate older wines. Check color against something white like a napkin or sheet of paper. You might also want to look for sediment.

SWIRL: Swirling the wine in the glass causes friction between the wine molecules that opens up smell and flavors. You do this by moving around the glass in the air or sliding it back and forth on the table. Nothing too gentle or too violent.

SMELL: You can readily anticipate the flavors by the bouquet/nose (although the smell and flavor may vary a little from one another). This makes sense since the senses of smell and taste are physiologically closely interrelated. You can also learn to readily differentiate wines by their smell. We had a person in the shop below drinking age who developed an amazing "palette" with just his (rather substantial) nose.

SIP: Swish it all over the mouth since different parts of the mouth taste different things. One way to exaggerate the flavors is to tilt the head forward and gently suck in some air; it really creates an explosion of flavor. An important point is that mouth chemistry varies from person to person, so inter-judge reliability is often iffy; what you taste is not what someone else would necessarily taste although there should be some overlap.

SAVOR: Note the changes in flavor over the course of a few seconds. The first sip is quite different from the "finish," what you experience before the taste dissipates. Part of this is taste bud habituation and partly the fact that the wine hits the front of the mouth first.

When tasting a variety of wines, always go from light to big, dry to sweet. Otherwise, the light wines are overwhelmed by the big ones, and the stickies make the following dry wines tart.

Expressing the flavor and bouquet of wine is really just a learned skill in which you identify a wine's affinity with other scents and flavors and, sometimes, with more fanciful imagery. In addition, there is a tactile aspect to wine which goes beyond effervescence (read "carbonation") to what is called mouth feel or mouth coating. As to flavor and bouquet, there are flavor and aroma wheels (little graphic aids) that help provide the vocabulary for these dimensions of wine; you can fine these on the web.

Regards.


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## JeffT (Jul 27, 2006)

French Bordeaux's for me. I am especially fond of 2000 Pavillion Rouge, the second growth by Margaux but as everyone knows one can't go wrong with any 2000 Bordeaux! 

I was just able to get a few bottles of the 2003 Leoville Barton which is every bit as great as WS and RP rate it. There is a seller on Ebay "Hookedonwine" that has me hooked! LOL!~

The best I have ever had. 1961 Chateau Mouton and a 1982 Lafite (My father still has an unopened case of 1982!) I have a 1948 Margaux, 1961 Lafite and a 1976 Chateau y'quem still in the cellar I haven't had the guts to open yet.....

Favorite everyday drinking wine. Chateau St. Jean, Bogel, BV and Mondavi every now and then.


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## JeffT (Jul 27, 2006)

Since on the subject of Sauternes. Question. Does anyone here drink them often? The reason I ask is I am a wine collector and my father was a wine collector before me (Hence the ownership of a 1976 y'quem). I never had a Sauterne until a few months ago and I have never seen my 80 year old father crack one open either. I had dinner @ Areole in Las Vegas, ordered Foie Gras and they pared it with a Sauterne for free which was very nice.

Since then I purchased 2001 Chateau Suduirat at a local wine shop to drink. Yep. I sat down and drank the whole damn bottle which was quite an accomplishment. I do not recommend this feat to anyone who is not a trained professional because of the high alcohol and sugar content. LOL!

It was refreshing, fruity and quite nice for a one glass after dinner wine but I never got into the habit of drinking Sauternes. How about you guys? Any experiences?


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## Scarred by Homer (Sep 8, 2006)

I rather like Sauternes, though I normally prefer drier wines. I once visited, with my family, a _cave_ in Sauterne, directly adjacent to Chateau d'Yquem, and, having discovered the owner lounging on his terrace, we were given a wonderful tour of the vineyard, cellars, and some very extensive tastings. I'd never really enjoyed visiting vineyards before then, but I thoroughly enjoyed that afternoon. The owner was marvellously characterful, in a way you only really find in rural France. Ever since, Sauternes wines have had a real feelgood factor for me.

Incidentally, I visited some California wineries this summer, but they wouldn't allow me to taste. Some rubbish about being five years below the legal drinking age. That's why I love France...


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## kabert (Feb 6, 2004)

Favorite cabernet sauv or cab blend -- 1987 Chateau Montelena (Napa); 2000 Chateau Barde Haute; 1995 BV Tapestry; 1997 Silver Oak Napa

Favorite cabernet franc -- 1997 Pride Mountain (all Pride CFs are great)

Favorite pinot noir -- 1990 Dujac Amourouses (sp?); late 1990s Flowers Camp Meeting Ridge; recent (2003?) Joseph Swan

Favorite syrah/shiraz -- 1998 Ojai Roll Ranch Special Bottling Lot EH (in a class by itself)

Favorite merlot -- Pride Mountain 1993, 1997

Favorite zin -- Turley (any and all); 1997 Edmeades Ciapusci Vineyard; 1999 (?) Neyers Tofanelli Vineyard

Favorite petite sirah -- Switchback Ridge and Pride (all years). 

Favorite chardonnay -- Kistler Durell and Dutton Vineyards; Newton Unfiltered (always reliable and tasty); Peter Michael. With seafood, a nice chablis from Valmur, Vaudesir, etc. A recent magnum of 1996 chablis -- Dauvisset's "Le Forest" -- was fantastic. I've finally learned that oaky chardonnay ruins the taste of seafood.

Other whites -- I spent the summer sampling a variety of Italian and German whites. Cheap, and great for uncritical sipping, with or without food.


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