# My Wife Wants Me to Open a Store in Baltimore



## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

At first this seems like the dream, right? I guess it is fun to think about, but I am scared of ending up like Peter Weller and Judy Davis in The New Age.

I am trying to figure out if there is a market for another menswear store in Baltimore. I have some ideas and I thought you folks might give some good feedback.

I am considering a private label by Hardwick; it seems like the best compromise. Anyone in Baltimore who wants a decent suit and can spend $500 or more can go to J.S. Edwards and buy a Jack Victor, or go to Eddie Jacobs and buy a Southwick, or go to Samuel Parker and buy a Samuelsohn, or go to Brooks Brothers downtown. Plus you can get a custom suit for like $800 around here.

But there are a bunch of people (young professionals, folks just graduating law school, etc.) who want a decent suit but can't afford the above. Or they don't know any better. And they buy suits from Bank's or from Macy's. 

And Baltimore, so far as I can tell, lacks a decent mid-level independent menswear store. If you want a $300 suit, you have to go to Bank's and overpay for junk.

Here is the basic idea of what I would offer:

- Basic suits (solid charcoal, solid navy, etc.) - retail about $300 for two piece, $400 for three piece. Probably updated American style, but maybe a few sacks as well.

- Navy Blazers and a few sportcoats - retail about $175

- Slacks - retail about $80

- Private Label sweaters from Harley of Scotland

- Some kind of Khaki offering, potentially through Hardwick as well, but maybe not.

- Some kind of shirt offering - probably Forsyth to keep it inexpensive

- Maybe see if I can strike a deal with Bow Tie Club to make me some ties.

Any thoughts on whether this is totally nuts? I thought a lot of cities have this sort of store, which Baltimore seems to lack.


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## jerry_in_motown (Nov 14, 2011)

What is your retail experience? Be careful to not end up like Fraiser and Niles.


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

I like the mix of offerings that you propose, however I think your biggest challenge will be breaking through all the advertising clutter of the JAB daily "buy one and we'll give you the whole store" nonsense. Getting the message into the minds of your target audience would seem to be the most difficult challenge, (assuming you have access to the capital to get the store up and running)
just my $.02
Tom


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## workforclothes (Jun 18, 2008)

Totally nuts. Your modest product mix is sensible but not sustainable. You are too focused on the "mid-level", which requires quantities of scale to achieve. Baltimore is too small of a market to support the type of store you are proposing.


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## bbuehler (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm way too young to know how this all works, but I genuinely thought I should try and say this, just coming from the 18-25 group. Wouldn't it be better to seek a partnership with a high end shop and incorporate those offerings? I know that's something they may not want to do, but wouldn't that draw the biggest crowd? Especially since once you spend cheaply on things that can be foregone, the prospect of a high end item(s) becomes attractive and hard to pass up? That also eliminates high end competition/advertising/name barricade...2cents...


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

You'd have my business. I'd certainly point friends to you as well.

That said, I'm not sure about Baltimore as a market. You'd probably want to develop an on-line presence as well, perhaps with the help of a little advertising here. One possibility: Baltimore has a large "yeshiva" community of Orthodox Jews who wear lots of suits. I don't know where they do their purchases, but most don't have a lot of money, yet they wear a lot of suits. So they're not shopping at Brooks Brothers, that's for sure. A few ads in their community publications/newsletters etc., or even just in the Baltimore Jewish Times or Chronicle or whatever it's called could be a better investment than an ad in, say, the Baltimore Sun.

Also, perhaps you'd want to advertise to Hopkins students. Anderson Little sells a lot of blazers to college students, I think. There's a market there for folks who need a decent interview suit.

PS. I'm not aware that other cities have those kind of stores. Does DC have one?


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Just a quick thought...

I don't know if this "niche" you describe is really a niche. It sounds like you could visit a Lord & Taylor (Black Brown 1826 Private label) or Macy's and find items similar to what you describe at the prices you mention. The quality of your items are better, but your target customers probably think of these items as commodities.

https://www1.macys.com/shop/mens-clothing/mens-suits?id=17788&edge=hybrid

You could probably differentiate yourself with service, but that would take years to establish....lots of lean years.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

I love the concept and would definately shop there if you do it, but I wonder if you need a bit more research.

As some pointed out above, for young guys, you would somehow have to educate them that your suits are better than the $150 junk at Banks. Also, does Eddie Jacobs still have a more entry level suit offering (I cant remember, but he used to have a house suit that was cheaper).

Baltimore is still a city where a primary question among people you meet is "where did you go to school?" If you could market to the young prep-school guys, you might get a strong customer base who follow you.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

jerry_in_motown said:


> What is your retail experience? Be careful to not end up like Fraiser and Niles.


Hahahha, I have none. I'm just a lawyer.

My wife has a lot, but it's all in antiques, jewelry and oriental rugs. This would be more her baby than mine.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Tom Buchanan said:


> I love the concept and would definately shop there if you do it, but I wonder if you need a bit more research.
> 
> As some pointed out above, for young guys, you would somehow have to educate them that your suits are better than the $150 junk at Banks. Also, does Eddie Jacobs still have a more entry level suit offering (I cant remember, but he used to have a house suit that was cheaper).
> 
> Baltimore is still a city where a primary question among people you meet is "where did you go to school?" If you could market to the young prep-school guys, you might get a strong customer base who follow you.


I definitely need a ton of research. This is my "feeling things out" mode.

Prep schools would definitely be a big market. Obviously we have plenty of them and I think some of them still even have jackets as part of the uniform.

And obviously marketing would include information about the qualities of Hardwick, Harley, etc, why they are better than Banks, etc. I would probably also emphasize the "made in the USA" - patriotic/economic angle and/or the "sweatshop free" angle.

Another selling point could be that we don't have that "Buy one get two free" business going on. A lot of the times at Bank's, if you don't buy three suits, you're paying $500 per suit. What if someone wants to go into a store and just buy a single suit?

Hopkins students is a market I had not considered, but that's a great idea.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

As someone who has returned to school to get their MBA, I would highly advise you look into some business classes before you make the plunge.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

L-feld said:


> I definitely need a ton of research. This is my "feeling things out" mode.
> 
> Prep schools would definitely be a big market. Obviously we have plenty of them and I think some of them still even have jackets as part of the uniform.
> 
> ...


That's right. Careful marketing and market research: the schools, the yeshiva, etc. niche markets. I'd put the store in mount Washington, by the way.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Trad-ish said:


> As someone who has returned to school to get their MBA, I would highly advise you look into some business classes before you make the plunge.


I've been considering that, actually. Is an MBA worth it these days? I can go back to University of Maryland, where I went to law school, and combine some of my law school credits to do an MBA in about a year.

Let's say I already have a sufficient background in corporate structuring and tax. What should I take classes on? Is marketing the most important? Are there classes explaining how best purchase inventory? Should I take a general accounting class?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

L-feld said:


> At first this seems like the dream, right? I guess it is fun to think about, but I am scared of ending up like Peter Weller and Judy Davis in The New Age.
> 
> I am trying to figure out if there is a market for another menswear store in Baltimore. I have some ideas and I thought you folks might give some good feedback.
> 
> ...


I have a bad cold, so I apologize in advance for what I know will be a rambling and fairly incoherent exposition of my opinions. I've never done retail, but I did do sales and marketing in an unrelated industry for many years. And from that, I've always tended to look at retail men's clothing, a passion of mine, partly from a business perspective.

With a few tweaks, I think you may have a business opportunity. Big capital, the driving force behind most retail now doesn't just want to make money. They want to make *a lot* of money *right now!* This has resulted in business models that have segmented the men's clothing market into two extremes; cheap junk for most, and costly, somewhat better items for the affluent. OK margins and huge volume at the bottom, and huge margins and OK volume at the top. (The preceding is gross simplification but generally true.) Just as there are fewer middle class Americans, there is a smaller middle market largely driven to one side or the other. And this market, while perhaps not capable of either huge volume or margins, can still be a nice living for an independent businessman.

By definition it is something of a niche market. While you don't want ignore potential customers, I doubt you can be all things to all people. Your store and your line need to have a personality. Your store needs to have a recognizable style. That is what will attract a clientele. Anonymous clothing is what the big boys do. You don't want to try to compete in that market. You want a customer who is unsatisfied by it.

I think Hardwick makes an OK garment at its price. But I think you will need to work on creating more stylized versions than vanilla to attract them to your store. I also think the sweet-spot in the market is a little north of where you're targeting it. Men who might want O'Connell's, etc., but need a little better deal. I think you're right about your customer profile, but your customer profile is highly aspirational. I.e., they'll pay perhaps 15% or 20% more for something they think is special more readily than they will buy clothing to fill a basic need.

If this is something you decide to do, I congratulate you on a significant contribution to men's retail, and I wish you great success!


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## challer (Sep 4, 2008)

Consider buying out an existing store with an established client base and reputation to which you can add your bit of magic. While you can start from the ground up, getting people to change habits in a highly branded market is tough. Placing your store next to the law school/MBA school would be a great place, if you were to start from scratch.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

tocqueville said:


> That's right. Careful marketing and market research: the schools, the yeshiva, etc. niche markets. I'd put the store in mount Washington, by the way.


Mount Washington is not a bad idea. Besides being where I grew up, it's in close proximity to Pikesville, Towson and Roland Park, and thus the Yeshivas and the Prep Schools.

My wife is trying to push Canton, possibly with the idea of us buying a storefront and living above. We're in the market to buy a house right now anyway, and that might help cut overhead.

But then the problem with Canton is parking...


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

challer said:


> Consider buying out an existing store with an established client base and reputation to which you can add your bit of magic. While you can start from the ground up, getting people to change habits in a highly branded market is tough. Placing your store next to the law school/MBA school would be a great place, if you were to start from scratch.


Sadly there is not much of anything in Baltimore to buy. I mean, Eddie Jacobs, Jr. keeps threatening to retire and sell off the store, but I certainly don't have the money to buy him out. Nor would I want to. I would feel like a fraud.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Not a chance. My company conducts demo research there every few years taking the temperature for a retail shop. You'd be better off opening a cash for gold store than a men's shop. 

Add to that the sheer impossibility to come up with the types of goods you mention at the prices you quote. 

There are easier ways to go bankrupt. The new slots casino at Arundel Mills for example.


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## Ensiferous (Mar 5, 2012)

Don't try to turn a passion or hobby into a business; run a profitable business to support your passion or hobby.

Don't become a business partner with your best friend.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

This would make an interesting subject for a country and western song.





I hope it does not end in tears.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Never heard of Lord & Taylor. How's the customer service? 

Their website is "facebook bound."


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Trip, I always respect your opinions, but I am surprised by some of your assertions.



Trip English said:


> Not a chance. My company conducts demo research there every few years taking the temperature for a retail shop. You'd be better off opening a cash for gold store than a men's shop. .


I know next to nothing about Baltimore. But it is a fairly large metropolitan area. And such areas typically have quite a bit of diversity and pockets of affluence. Are these wholly lacking in the Baltimore area?



Trip English said:


> Add to that the sheer impossibility to come up with the types of goods you mention at the prices you quote.


I have no information about this, but assumed the OP had some previous experience in the retail men's business upon which he was estimating pricing based on markups from wholesale prices.



Trip English said:


> There are easier ways to go bankrupt. The new slots casino at Arundel Mills for example.


There are bad ideas, and there are good ideas poorly executed. I don't know if this is the former, or would be the later. But what I would suggest is that are many ways to skin a cat. Such as reaching out via the web to augment in-store sales, and to promote a store. To a limited degree O'Connell's does that. And Bullock and Jones built a giant catalog business from a little store off of Union Square before being purchased and ruined.

The one thing I know from experience is that to have a chance of succeeding, you generally need far more capital, or access to capital than you think you'll need to start up, and to make it beyond the start-up phase. And if you don't have it, or can't get it, you're better off not trying. But if you do or can, I would never say never without having a whole bunch more information.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Trip English said:


> Not a chance. My company conducts demo research there every few years taking the temperature for a retail shop. You'd be better off opening a cash for gold store than a men's shop.
> 
> Add to that the sheer impossibility to come up with the types of goods you mention at the prices you quote.
> 
> There are easier ways to go bankrupt. The new slots casino at Arundel Mills for example.


Is Carl Baruch only able to sell them at those prices because he does it on the internet?

Anyway, no sense in opening a cash for gold shop. My wife wants to get out of jewelry consignment - she's an appraiser for an auction house.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Flanderian said:


> Trip, I always respect your opinions, but I am surprised by some of your assertions.
> 
> I know next to nothing about Baltimore. But it is a fairly large metropolitan area. And such areas typically have quite a bit of diversity and pockets of affluence. Are these wholly lacking in the Baltimore area?
> 
> ...


As the comment suggests, I actually have some pretty detailed and relevant info on the Baltimore area (I also grew up about an hour from there and lived there for almost 10 years). There are absolutely a few pockets of money in Baltimore, but there's a key difference between where money lives and where it shops. That's not to say that a dynamo of a retailer with a powerhouse of a brand couldn't make something work in a challenging area, but the numbers simply don't lend themselves to an ideal climate for a seasoned brand, let alone an absolute newcomer.

Further the tone of the original post and some follow-up detail suggests that the passion isn't really there (it's really to be his wife's baby). If you're going to beat the odds, this is not the attitude to do it with.

As for the costs, one of our own members did some research into starting a brand with much more limited offerings and a higher price-point. He was not able to make it work and was much deeper into the business side than this poster seems to be. He detailed his experiences elsewhere (maybe he did here, but I can't recall) and not only were we made privy to some facts and figures, but some very enlightening reports of what the actual person to person dealings were like with manufacturers.

The reality is that our perception can sometimes get clouded by our participation in these boards. The majority of people don't care too much about how they dress and will shop wherever (if they don't just wear what their wives and girlfriends buy) and the ones who do care generally develop the sort of discriminating tastes that marry them to a few key brands for very specific reasons.

Just like in my own business, the middle dropped out and offerings are clustered around the absolute worst disposable dreck and the beautiful polished gems. Anything that seems to exist on the continuum between those two poles is very likely just one or the other (usually the dreck) tarted up to look nicer.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Trip English said:


> As the comment suggests, I actually have some pretty detailed and relevant info on the Baltimore area (I also grew up about an hour from there and lived there for almost 10 years). There are absolutely a few pockets of money in Baltimore, but there's a key difference between where money lives and where it shops. That's not to say that a dynamo of a retailer with a powerhouse of a brand couldn't make something work in a challenging area, but the numbers simply don't lend themselves to an ideal climate for a seasoned brand, let alone an absolute newcomer.
> 
> Further the tone of the original post and some follow-up detail suggests that the passion isn't really there (it's really to be his wife's baby). If you're going to beat the odds, this is not the attitude to do it with.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the detailed education! :thumbs-up:

I view things only from the perspective of a one-time business man and clothes fancier and not from any direct experience with this business. I am particularly sensitive to your argument regarding the Catch-22 nature of trying to find manufacturers who are able to make a decent product, and are yet willing to do business with a small start-up and offer pricing that will allow both sales and a profit.

Having begun a couple businesses, I would add that perhaps in addition to passion, stupidity is a useful attribute, or at least extreme stubbormness! :icon_smile_wink:


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

If you're curious, user nerdykarim may have some advice he'd be willing to pass along.


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## nerdykarim (Dec 13, 2005)

Trip English said:


> As for the costs, one of our own members did some research into starting a brand with much more limited offerings and a higher price-point. He was not able to make it work and was much deeper into the business side than this poster seems to be. He detailed his experiences elsewhere (maybe he did here, but I can't recall) and not only were we made privy to some facts and figures, but some very enlightening reports of what the actual person to person dealings were like with manufacturers.


This, I think, might be a reference to me.

I looked into things pretty seriously and decided not to pull the trigger on anything basically because it was impossible to get manufacturers to agree to the kind of customization I wanted at the quantity I could afford (I had an investor partner and was--I thought, at least--reasonably well capitalized). There might be another opportunity for me to jump on board with another project being launched by someone with a lot of menswear pedigree (and money) in the spring, so I'm still a little bit in the loop with some manufacturers.

The short version is that it is really, really risky.

OP, if you're seriously interested in this, shoot me a PM and I'll talk you through some of the pricing models I came up with (though they were for an online store, so they may not be applicable to your cost structure).

There's also a reasonably large community of styleforum members in Baltimore; it might be worth reaching out to some of them (though their tastes are probably on the higher end of things, their opinions will be valuable).


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

There *used* to be *lots *of men's stores like that, in cities, towns, all over; how many have you seen lately...anywhere?

What you describe is basically the men's dept. in a decent-to-pretty good department store. When you factor in those, outlets, JAB/MW and the like, you're talking about a helluvalot of competition, with nothing I can see to make you stand out.

A "just exactly right" location could make the difference, but that would be tricky, e.g., schoolkids usually get their clothes _before _they get on campus.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Flanderian - Maybe we can say you have to be stupid enough to start it and smart enough to keep it going. :icon_smile_wink: 

Nerdrykarim - yep, I was referring to you


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

phyrpowr said:


> There *used* to be *lots *of men's stores like that, in cities, towns, all over; how many have you seen lately...anywhere?
> 
> What you describe is basically the men's dept. in a decent-to-pretty good department store. When you factor in those, outlets, JAB/MW and the like, you're talking about a helluvalot of competition, with nothing I can see to make you stand out.
> 
> A "just exactly right" location could make the difference, but that would be tricky, e.g., schoolkids usually get their clothes _before _they get on campus.


Is there a men's department store where I could buy a (albeit fused, but nonetheless) made in USA suit for $300?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Of course not. The product doesn't exist. H&M sells suits at that price point and they're made in who knows where and have the fit and finish of halloween costumes. A suit at that price, made in America would have no audience and no sleeves.


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## Pink and Green (Jul 22, 2009)

If you are the audience, look at the hoops we have to jump through to get what we want - it's a combination of eBay, thrift shops and the forums here. You need massive demand to make money - you'd honestly be better off selling to the largest common denominator whatever you can wring profits out of. Our group (and the one you are targeting) either don't have enough money, or have enough money and time to source what they need in many places.

I would stick to being a lawyer, as running a business may make you long for your old day job again.


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## nerdykarim (Dec 13, 2005)

Trip English said:


> Of course not. The product doesn't exist. H&M sells suits at that price point and they're made in who knows where and have the fit and finish of halloween costumes. A suit at that price, made in America would have no audience and no sleeves.


To be fair, the Hardwick suits at retail for 90%(195+98) = $263.70. Those are the kinds of retail prices that make guys like us [the OP and me] want to jump into the game. Of course, there are so many complicating factors that make it substantially more difficult. For example (extremely relevant to the OP), that's an e-business, without rent and sales associates' salaries that would eat up all of your margins.

That said, there are tons of startups that have been doing this sort of thing successfully in the last 5 years, both in my town (Athens, GA) and elsewhere (with an online presence). You have to have access to lots of capital and you have to get a little lucky, but I think it's worth trying. I'm young and broke, so I didn't have a safety net to fall back on if I failed, but if I had more time on my hands and a little safety net built up, I would definitely give it a shot.

At the very least, *L-Field*, do the research and put together some cashflow projections for a few different debt/equity levels and figure out how much inventory you need to sell in order to service your debt every month. It's an interesting mental exercise and I found that it changed the way I think about retail businesses. I was trained as a lawyer as well, so I can understand your desire to leave that field


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Online is the key there. To run a brick and mortar the margins will need to be significantly higher. If clothing is anything like electronics those suits would get closer to $500 in a hurry. (I'm obviously making an assumption as to the margins for that site)

It would seem that there's more luck in playing to the higher end buyer with a small men's shop.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

nerdykarim said:


> At the very least, *L-Field*, do the research and put together some cashflow projections for a few different debt/equity levels and figure out how much inventory you need to sell in order to service your debt every month._ It's an interesting mental exercise and I found that it changed the way I think about retail businesses._ I was trained as a lawyer as well, so I can understand your desire to leave that field


Sorry to be repetitive but I do consider that great advice. I have sat on both sides of the business financing desk and think this exercise has saved many people from losing everything, and helped others understand the complexity of the challenge they are about to begin. Doing a proper breakeven analysis can be a very sobering exercise in itself.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

L-feld said:


> Is there a men's department store where I could buy a (albeit fused, but nonetheless) made in USA suit for $300?


Made in USA, don't know, haven't shopped at dept. stores in more than ten years (for suits, anyway), but they have _*constant *_sales and plenty of mdse. at your price point. And tons of walk in traffic, by which I mean men-with-wives-who-*gottagetasuitIguessgeez.*

I'm on your side and pullin' for ya, just don't know in this day & time if it can work. So many men have NO IDEA what they're doing when they shop for clothes, MW looks upscale to them, and they don't seem to care to learn.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Orsini said:


> Never heard of Lord & Taylor. How's the customer service?
> 
> Their website is "facebook bound."


IMO, I would put Lord & Taylor in the same tier as Macy's or Dillard's. I've only been to an L&T occasionally, mostly when travelling. The customer service I received during my visits was typical of a mall dept. store.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Have you thought of a store within a store?

In Stroudsburg (PA), we have a well-established sporting goods store called Dunkelburger's. They have a menswear dept that sells Bill's, Pendelton, Filson, etc. Within that dept, there is a fine menswear "shop" that sells mid-range suits and jackets...kinda like what the OP wants to do. I think that "shop" is leased space...as it goes under a different name, Rovito's Fine Menswear.

I don't know how successful that model is as I've never seen anyone in Rovito's, but it's been there for at least 3 years, and I see their advertisements in the Pocono Record every week.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> IMO, I would put Lord & Taylor in the same tier as Macy's or Dillard's. I've only been to an L&T occasionally, mostly when travelling. The customer service I received during my visits was typical of a mall dept. store.


Thank you.

How are their accessories? I'm on an accessories jag now.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

You are a lucky man. Your wife means well but....


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Orsini said:


> Thank you.
> 
> How are their accessories? I'm on an accessories jag now.


Sorry Orsini, I can't help you there. The only accessories I wear are my wedding band and, on the weekends, a Timex watch.


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## leisureclass (Jan 31, 2011)

Don't know anything about retail and little about Baltimore, but... overhead seems to be a major concern with new garments. What about a Men's only vintage shop? With a decent web presence you might do alright.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Sorry Orsini, I can't help you there. The only accessories I wear are my wedding band and, on the weekends, a Timex watch.


No belt?


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## wrwhiteknight (Mar 20, 2012)

Orsini said:


> Never heard of Lord & Taylor. How's the customer service?
> 
> Their website is "facebook bound."


I bought a suit at their 5th avenue shop in NY this summer, the associate was very patient and very helpful, and I left with a nice summer suit at a great price. For a large department store, I would place them way way above Macy's in terms of service, slightly above Macy's instead of inventory, but definitely a fair bit below a Bloomingdales or Saks.

As for the men's store, you have as good a chance as many other small retailers these days, which is to say that the situation is very tenuous.

Having done retail management for 5 years before law school, I can say that staffing your location will be of major importance. I assume that you will the the "boss", but I hope you have realized that *you should not be the manager*.

You will do well to *hire somebody with at least 10 years experience in the menswear industry*, and who is a natural leader, and *you must be willing to pay them a very competitive salary* with an incentivized compensation structure. This is a necessity even if you never plan on having more than 2 people working at the same time.

Retail salesmanship is a fine skill like anything, and when your bottom line will turn on individual sales and repeat business as opposed to mass influxes such as an outlet store or a big box store, you cannot afford to screw it up yourself as you learn, or to hire some young or inexperienced folks in an attempt to save payroll.

*As for inventory, I can say that even in a small shop, variety is key*; I will use your shirts as an example. If somebody comes in for a shirt, but for some reason they don't like Forsyth, you're sunk. I think that while Forsyth is a nice baseline, you need to pepper in a few nicer shirts, such as a Jack Lipson, and then a few more comparable to the Forsyth such as Ike Behar. Differentiation makes each individual piece more appealing, and will allow you to cater to individual clients by painting each brand as being suitable for their style, price point, or demands, while still being in keeping with your overall image and target audience.


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## nerdykarim (Dec 13, 2005)

wrwhiteknight said:


> Having done retail management for 5 years before law school, I can say that staffing your location will be of major importance. I assume that you will the the "boss", but I hope you have realized that *you should not be the manager*.


If you don't mind my asking, what's the justification for this?


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## TweedyDon (Aug 31, 2007)

leisureclass said:


> Don't know anything about retail and little about Baltimore, but... overhead seems to be a major concern with new garments. What about a Men's only vintage shop? With a decent web presence you might do alright.


I've thought about this, as a sideline hobby/business!

I looked at the numbers involved, and it really would not be worth doing for anything more than a hobby unless (a) you have a consistent supply of first rate items (not easy), (b) you are willing to charge fairly high mark-ups (easy, but the market for vintage items has low ceilings), and (c) you can sell in BULK--which usually means an eBay presence.

It's possible--mack seems to do well and offers great items on eBay--but it would be difficult. The chaps I know who have something akin to this--Typhoid Jones, Newton Street, and An Affordable Wardrobe--seem to do it as a sideline, I suspect owing to the difficulties of securing a consistent supply.

On a related note and out of gratuitous self-publicity I might be starting a blog on this sort of topic soon!


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## wrwhiteknight (Mar 20, 2012)

nerdykarim said:


> If you don't mind my asking, what's the justification for this?


If you have no retail experience, it doesn't make sense to be the day to day leadership of a retail location. Same idea as a financier of a sailing crew who is a sailing novice, you can be the "boss", but how are you going to direct the crew?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

leisureclass said:


> Don't know anything about retail and little about Baltimore, but...


I know both.

A walk-in methadone, STD and tattoo removal center would be what I suggest!!


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> IMO, I would put Lord & Taylor in the same tier as Macy's or Dillard's. I've only been to an L&T occasionally, mostly when travelling. The customer service I received during my visits was typical of a mall dept. store.


There are two near me, but they're very different from each other. One is almost exactly on par with Macy's, while the other is slightly nicer -- the nicer one sells AE shoes and a lot of Ralph Lauren casual stuff, while the other has a paltry selection of J&M and green label Lauren. I think this is because Nordstrom's has the high-end market cornered in the mall with the lesser L&T, while the other one is top dog in its mall.

Some of the store brand (Black & Brown 1826) stuff is decent, for "mall clothes."


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

Wife: Honey, I want you to open a menswear store, here in Baltimore. You like nice clothes, so why not?

Husband: Sweetheart, I already have a job that I like; I'm a lawyer. You're the one with the retail experience, so why don't you open and run the menswear store? You'll be completely in charge, and I'll cheer you on when you tell me about your business triumphs at dinner every evening. Unfortunately, I won't be able to play any meaningful role in the operation of the store, but I know that you can do anything you set your mind to, and I'm sure opening and running a menswear store here in Baltimore is no exception. So, I guess you'll want to start drawing up a detailed business plan now, complete with lots of numbers, and sales and expense projections, and all that stuff, right?

Wife: I don't know how to come up with a business plan, with all those numbers. I just thought a store that sells nice men's clothing, at a good price, would make us lots of money.

Husband: Gotcha. You're telling me that first you want to take some evening classes, in business management, business accounting, business law, and marketing. Sounds like a smart first move. Have you taken a look at CCBC's course catalog yet?

(Well, that's probably the best way to handle a "My Wife Wants Me to Open a Store in Baltimore" scenario, for all that it sounds an awful lot like dialogue from a 3rd rate, early 1970s era sitcom. Of course, this assumes that this thread was named accurately, and that it shouldn't really have been named, "I Have a Fantasy of Running a Menswear Store in Baltimore, But I Have Absolutely No Experience in this Field and the Heyday of Menswear Stores Passed About 35 Years Ago, and I Want You To Encourage Me in My Fantasies, While Letting Me Attribute Them To My Wife So I Won't Feel Foolish.")

-- 
Michael


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

12345Michael54321 said:


> Wife: Honey, I want you to open a menswear store, here in Baltimore. You like nice clothes, so why not?
> 
> Husband: Sweetheart, I already have a job that I like; I'm a lawyer. You're the one with the retail experience, so why don't you open and run the menswear store? You'll be completely in charge, and I'll cheer you on when you tell me about your business triumphs at dinner every evening. Unfortunately, I won't be able to play any meaningful role in the operation of the store, but I know that you can do anything you set your mind to, and I'm sure opening and running a menswear store here in Baltimore is no exception. So, I guess you'll want to start drawing up a detailed business plan now, complete with lots of numbers, and sales and expense projections, and all that stuff, right?
> 
> ...


Hahaha, we had a conversation very much like that, except the whole "it will make us a lot of money" part. I would be happy if we don't lose money on it.

I started this thread mostly because my wife wants me to cough up a lot of seed money and obviously I was hesitant. I wanted to get a feel for whether it would be an okay investment.

My wife also asked me some questions about what products to carry and whatnot, just because I obviously have an opinion on that and I told her that I wasn't going to fund a store that carried clothing made in China.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

A bar would be easier. People will always want booze.


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## russelldl (Jun 7, 2012)

I would also consider the fact that many Baltimore suit wearers live outside the city. They most likely shop outside the city as well. Not sure how that affects things, just something to consider.


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## Angrik (Dec 7, 2006)

Suits were common in downtown Baltimore 15 years ago but no more. I haven't worn a suit on a daily basis since 2000. Perhaps you should consider setting up a "university shop," selling preppy clothing geared towards Baltimore prep school students and college students from Hopkins, Loyola, Goucher and UMBC.


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## Dovid (Feb 26, 2008)

I would calculate my startup costs, figure in my ongoing costs (rent, utilities, wages), establish how much debt I am willing to carry, and consider what my exit strategy would be (how much would I get for a fire-sale of inventory and store fixtures?) before entering into this. I suggest starting small with a pop-up store selling shirts and ties. This way, you are limiting your potential losses, while gaining some feedback from the public about the direction you want to go in. From there, I would consider getting a small space from which to sell shirts and ties. Stick to that for a few years before branching out to a full-line store.


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## dmac (Jun 30, 2006)

This store was in a slightly different market, but the former owner echoes a lot of the sentiments expressed here:

https://www.mrketplace.com/1773/yale-genton-closing-shop/


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> Have you thought of a store within a store?
> 
> In Stroudsburg (PA), we have a well-established sporting goods store called Dunkelburger's.


I think that's a good idea. Something that doesn't overlap with the original store's product mix would increase traffic to both stores and perhaps let them put unneeded extra space to good use.

(I have to check this place out next time I'm there. My grandfather grew up in Cresco and I've been told his father once had a lot of real estate holdings in Stroudsburg.)


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

L-feld said:


> Hahaha, we had a conversation very much like that, except the whole "it will make us a lot of money" part. I would be happy if we don't lose money on it.
> 
> I started this thread mostly because my wife wants me to cough up a lot of seed money and obviously I was hesitant. I wanted to get a feel for whether it would be an okay investment.


I don't even know where to start. In a nutshell, I would put the likelihood of you and your wife making a profit at about 0%. Not 1%. 0%. And this could very well ruin your marriage.

All risk, no upside. Sound like an opportunity worth pursuing?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

0% is comically optimistic.


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## Wimsey (Jan 28, 2006)

Q: How can you make a million dollars with a menswear shop?
A: Start with two million dollars.

...I'll be here all week...


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

Angrik said:


> Suits were common in downtown Baltimore 15 years ago but no more. I haven't worn a suit on a daily basis since 2000. Perhaps you should consider setting up a "university shop," selling preppy clothing geared towards Baltimore prep school students and college students from Hopkins, Loyola, Goucher and UMBC.


There is a nice mens store here in Knoxville that has a good selection of quality shirts, pants and suits as well as a very unique selection of UT merchandise and clothing. I assume the university gear keeps them going pretty well since this town is like one big walking orange blob in the fall. I have also thought about a mens store, but specifically a shoe store. However, doing some very informal research it seems like that would be a waste, no amount of marketing is going to change the minds of a large portion of men that a $500 pair of shoes is better than 4 pairs at $150, I mean they are disposable right? haha


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