# Black Shell Cordovan: thoughts and experiences



## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Gents,

Just got my first pair of Shell Cordovans: PTBs in burgundy. Unfortunately, I got the bug! 

I'm slowly seeing the cordovan rolls develop and can see the patina in bright sunlight.

I can see myself getting more shoes in burgundy/#8, cigar/brown, or Ravello (which I hear is much harder to get).

I'm curious. What's the appeal of shell in black? Aside from the feel, support and durability, I wouldn't think that they develop as rich a patina as some other colors. Am I wrong?

It seems that calf can never develop a deep patina like shell does in Burgundy, Brown or Ravello or even Whiskey over time, but I'm guessing a well polished shoe in black shell, will look, more or less, black. Sure it will have those cordovan rolls, and, perhaps a slight variance in color, but I seldom see anyone post pics of their sexy black shell cordovans.

Please share your thoughts and experiences, and pics if possible. 

Thanks,

Theoden


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

I've often thought it pointless to spend the premium on black shell because many of the desirable qualities would be lost by virtue of the shoe still just being a black shoe. If I was buying cordovan, I'd allocate my money on other shades. I'd start with Color 8 and then move to other browns. I think Carmina and Bonafe do a great job with cordovan and don't seem to be subjected to the Alden artificial limitation on shades other than Color 8 and black.

I think Watchman has had very good luck with Bonafe's cordovan offerings.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

I've found I get a lustre with black shell that I rarely get from calf.


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

smmrfld said:


> I've found I get a lustre with black shell that I rarely get from calf.


Agreed. And the durability of the cordovan makes black shell an investment.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

cellochris said:


> Agreed. And the durability of the cordovan makes black shell an investment.


Yes, the investment in a long-lasting shoe is not insignificant.

That lustre looks like a.....Waxy glow? Mirror-like shine?

Theoden


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

Love my black shells. All three from BB; unlined LHS, tassels and wingtip bals. I think they're just as handsome as my #8's and Marlows and are worn just as frequently.


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## swils8610 (Mar 12, 2016)

Really like my PTB in #8! No experience with black yet...


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Well, if you insist on a pair of black cordovans I do recommend Alden. They do an excellent job with black cordovan in particular.

Also, consider Alden #8. If you have a pair of burgundy AE's then Alden are different enough to justify one of theirs. Alden #8 will come almost as dark as black and then the shade will mature into a beautiful eggplant/oxblood.

Thanks.


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## John inSC (Mar 20, 2016)

Watchman said:


> Well, if you insist on a pair of black cordovans I do recommend Alden. They do an excellent job with black cordovan in particular.
> 
> Also, consider Alden #8. If you have a pair of burgundy AE's then Alden are different enough to justify one of theirs. Alden #8 will come almost as dark as black and then the shade will mature into a beautiful eggplant/oxblood.
> 
> Thanks.


I have been looking at some of Alden's in #8, and while I do love the dark burgundy color, i've never owned a pair of cordovan; what causes the dramatic color difference to the eggplant/oxblood? Would the color change normally just occur in the nice folds and creases or is it from the continual brushing and bleaching from the sun. Curious, thanks.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

John inSC said:


> I have been looking at some of Alden's in #8, and while I do love the dark burgundy color, i've never owned a pair of cordovan; what causes the dramatic color difference to the eggplant/oxblood? Would the color change normally just occur in the nice folds and creases or is it from the continual brushing and bleaching from the sun. Curious, thanks.


This is a subject of much debate and speculation. Every shoemaker that uses shell cordovan applies their own proprietary method of finishing the leather post-tannery.

Alden in particular produces shoes and boots that have the deep eggplant shade. We surmise that they apply a very specific and unique finishing process that is very different from all other manufacturers.

Which, in the big picture, works out well for Alden because their products are so distinct.

One of the cool things about shell is watching the color change and mature with regular wear and maintenance. The more you wear and care for your shell cordovan shoes and boots the more rich the patina becomes over time.

Various factors such as brushing, conditioning, polishing, exposure to UV rays and even stains contribute to the patina the leather will develop.

Hope this helps!

Thanks.


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## jeffreyc (Apr 8, 2010)

cellochris said:


> Agreed. And the durability of the cordovan makes black shell an investment.


That's the main reason I have a pair from Crockett and Jones. Although I do like the waxy shine you get if you work hard.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> Love my black shells. All three from BB; unlined LHS, tassels and wingtip bals. I think they're just as handsome as my #8's and Marlows and are worn just as frequently.


Sounds like a nice collection you have there.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Well, if you insist on a pair of black cordovans I do recommend Alden. They do an excellent job with black cordovan in particular
> 
> Also, consider Alden #8. If you have a pair of burgundy AE's then Alden are different enough to justify one of theirs. Alden #8 will come almost as dark as black and then the shade will mature into a beautiful eggplant/oxblood.


Thanks. I think another PTB in #8 might be a little redundant. From what I hear, the newer Allen Edmonds are darker than they used to be. They come in a dark cherry/eggplant color, but in bright sunlight seem to glow.

The argument in favor of black shell to me is this: if you're going to get a black shoe_ anyway_, why not invest an additional premium and get a shoe that will last considerably longer? Allen Edmonds black calfskin shoes retail at $395; their shell offerings are $650. Alden black calfskin shoes start above $500 and their shell is $690 - 720 (roughly).

I guess it depends on how frequently you wear black shoes in your rotation and if so, does the shell justify the premium.

I could see wearing a nice pair of black PTBs or LWBs with almost anything, though they will not be as glorious as #8, brown or ravello over time.

Theoden


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Theoden said:


> Thanks. I think another PTB in #8 might be a little redundant. From what I hear, the newer Allen Edmonds are darker than they used to be. They come in a dark cherry/eggplant color, but in bright sunlight seem to glow.
> 
> The argument in favor of black shell to me is this: if you're going to get a black shoe_ anyway_, why not invest an additional premium and get a shoe that will last considerably longer? Allen Edmonds black calfskin shoes retail at $395; their shell offerings are $650. Alden black calfskin shoes start above $500 and their shell is $690 - 720 (roughly).
> 
> I guess it depends on how frequently you wear black shoes in your rotation and if so, does the shell justify the premium.


Agreed with the above points. I have a two pair of AE burgundy cordovan and right next to my alden color 8 PTB, the Alden are much lighter, but they all look great in sunlight.

My black shell AE captoe bals are my workhorse shoes, I wear them for almost all my performances except when I wear tails. Hoping they last as long as I continue playing!


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

cellochris said:


> Agreed with the above points. I have a two pair of AE burgundy cordovan and right next to my alden color 8 PTB, the Alden are much lighter, but they all look great in sunlight.
> 
> My black shell AE captoe bals are my workhorse shoes, I wear them for almost all my performances except when I wear tails. Hoping they last as long as I continue playing!


Sounds like a nice collection there!

My son used to play the cello but gave it up. Broke my heart. He recently was talked into a salon performance by his old teacher and he did some pieces from the Bach Cello Suites. Hasn't played since 2009 - and he did well all things considering.

Lovely instrument.

--Theoden


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Theoden said:


> Sounds like a nice collection there!
> 
> My son used to play the cello but gave it up. Broke my heart. He recently was talked into a salon performance by his old teacher and he did some pieces from the Bach Cello Suites. Hasn't played since 2009 - and he did well all things considering.
> 
> ...


Thank you Theoden! I have been working on a shell rotation.

Glad to hear your son is playing again, it is always nice to be able to have music as an outlet. And you can't go wrong with Bach!


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## Barrister & Solicitor (Jan 10, 2007)

I own a number of shell shoes from AE, vintage Florsheim and Alden. 2 out of my shell collection are black, while the remainder are burgundy.

One of my black shell I got from AE a few years back when they had a "2 pairs for $200" sale. I could pass that deal. The other were seconds. To this day, I don't know why they were seconds. I bought them in store and had the chance to try a number of seconds that day and I was able to see why some were seconds... I digress.

The high shine is obviously very desirable.

Another aspect is the actual "ink like" color. They sometime have a green or a grey hue to them depending on lighting conditions.

I certainly do not regret my purchases.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

My experience has been that AE and Alden shell cordovan share attributes only in 1 element and that is the fact that they are both from Horween.

Maybe AE burgundy shell cordovan has become more and more like Alden eggplant since I have owned burgundy from those 2 makers, but I have owned more of the burgundy/eggplant shade from those 2 makers than I care to admit and always found the difference in shade to be quite significant.

You must decide.


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

This thread needs pics


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> This thread needs pics
> 
> View attachment 16204


Very nice!


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Alden 9015

Alden Cap Toe Balmoral on Plaza Last


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

That is a really very good shine. And I like your plaza last straight tips much better than the Hampton lasted version.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> That is a really very good shine. And I like your plaza last straight tips much better than the Hampton lasted version.


Thank You Sir.

They are my most non-Alden looking Alden's if that even makes sense.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Dieu et les Dames said:


> This thread needs pics
> 
> View attachment 16204


Those BB Wingtip Balmorals in #8 are actually one of my most sought after models.

If I found a pair in my size I would buy them on the spot.

Thanks.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Thank You Sir.
> 
> They are my most non-Alden looking Alden's if that even makes sense.


I get your point. They are quite sleek.

I think the Barrie Last would be quite comfortable, but I'm not yet sold on that super-rounded toe. That's why I chose the Leeds from AE, since, to my eye, it worked better with suits than the Alden PTB, though I understand that particular look is iconic/classic.

I need to get sized at the Alden store in NYC and see if the other lasts work for me. I have very flat, wide feet. 
--Theoden


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Theoden said:


> I get your point. They are quite sleek.
> 
> I think the Barrie Last would be quite comfortable, but I'm not yet sold on that super-rounded toe. That's why I chose the Leeds from AE, since, to my eye, it worked better with suits than the Alden PTB, though I understand that particular look is iconic/classic.
> 
> ...


Well, the good thing about Alden is that they come in a plethora of widths and lengths. The downside is that their lasts are generally seen as being a bit bulbous and blobby.

The Plaza and Aberdeen are the exception IMO.

If you can fit the Plaza, it is actually a great last. The Aberdeen is second to it IMO.

Thanks.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Well, the good thing about Alden is that they come in a plethora of widths and lengths. The downside is that their lasts are generally seen as being a bit bulbous and blobby.
> 
> The Plaza and Aberdeen are the exception IMO.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think it depends on the type of shoe. I saw a scotch-grain calfskin in the Barrie last that was quite handsome. I tried a special make-up of the Norwegian Split Toe in the Barrie Last in a #8 Shell Cordovan, which was also handsome. I just didn't connect with the PTB or the LWB in the Barrie. Though, if I could get it in Ravello in Shell Cordovan I might be convinced ;-)

--Theoden


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Well, the good thing about Alden is that they come in a plethora of widths and lengths. The downside is that their lasts are generally seen as being a bit bulbous and blobby.
> 
> The Plaza and Aberdeen are the exception IMO.
> 
> ...


You have a PM - please check.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Theoden said:


> You have a PM - please check.


Checked pm, but did not receive.

Thanks.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Checked pm, but did not receive.
> 
> Thanks.


Re-sent


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## WICaniac (Sep 25, 2013)

Watchman said:


> Alden 9015
> 
> Alden Cap Toe Balmoral on Plaza Last


The absolute best answer to this question one could possibly receive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Theoden said:


> I get your point. They are quite sleek.
> 
> I think the Barrie Last would be quite comfortable, but I'm not yet sold on that super-rounded toe. That's why I chose the Leeds from AE, since, to my eye, it worked better with suits than the Alden PTB, though I understand that particular look is iconic/classic.
> 
> ...


I would try to procure a pair of balmoral cordovans to wear with suits. IMO that is a better match.

Then, the Leeds could be reserved for more informal occasions. I am not dogmatic regarding wearing bluchers with suits. I don't normally do it though.

Leeds are perfect for SP and such.

My rules for bluchers with suits are:

1. No storm welt.
2. The last must be shaped VERY elegantly.

However, to each their own.

Thanks.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> I would try to procure a pair of balmoral cordovans to wear with suits. IMO that is a better match.
> 
> Then, the Leeds could be reserved for more informal occasions. I am not dogmatic regarding wearing bluchers with suits. I don't normally do it though.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Agreed.

Unfortunately, I've had trouble finding any balmorals that fit me. I've only looked at Allen Edmonds and their 65 last doesn't work for me - much too narrow. I think they have a newer last (201) with the Independence collection, which is wider, but when I tried it the heel was way too loose and slipped more than expected in an unbroken shoe.

I should talk to the folks at Alden and what they've got. If not a balmoral, perhaps a dressier, sleeker, single sole, non-storm welt, blucher with a cap-toe, if possible.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Theoden said:


> Thanks. Agreed.
> 
> Unfortunately, I've had trouble finding any balmorals that fit me. I've only looked at Allen Edmonds and their 65 last doesn't work for me - much too narrow. I think they have a newer last (201) with the Independence collection, which is wider, but when I tried it the heel was way too loose and slipped more than expected in an unbroken shoe.
> 
> I should talk to the folks at Alden and what they've got. If not a balmoral, perhaps a dressier, sleeker, single sole, non-storm welt, blucher with a cap-toe, if possible.


I cannot say enough good things about the Alden Hampton Last. Its a bit bulbous, yes, but tis so sweet on the feet...

We must be reminded of the orthopedic roots of the Alden Shoe Company. They specialize in fitting the feet of people who have special needs. Harrison Ford (amongst many others), has found great comfort with Alden's orthopedic lasts.

Trubalance and Modified are special lasts that are orthopedically minded. Before the "Indy Boot" was the plain Jane Alden model number 403.

I say all that to say, you have to keep this in consideration whilst pondering Alden's. I feel like even the best written mens wear articles fail to bring out the orthopedic heritage of Alden.

This is the primary reason why Alden shoes and boots are so blobby...because they have tried to make fit trump fashion. In closing, it has always been fascinating to me that so many hipsters wear Alden's.

Thanks.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Also, it is interesting to note some thoughts regarding fitting.

I have worn the following lasts from Alden:

Plaza
Hampton
Barrie
Van
Grant
379x

While all of them have their benefits; Plaza is by far the most aesthetically pleasing. Plaza is perhaps one of the finest lasts currently in production by any American maker IMO. Most certainly the most underrated. 

Here is a tip I have had to learn the hard way: try adjusting widths before you adjust lengths through the various Alden lasts.

The commonly held advice is to adjust length by .5 size. Myself (and many others whom I am friends with) have found it beneficial to adjust widths instead.

So if you are an 11EEE, I would recommend trying on that size and 11EE or 11E. I hope what I am saying makes sense...

My heart is to save you $$$ because I have made far too many Alden sizing mistakes...

Example: I bought 3 different Barrie last sizes before my proper one was procured.

The good thing is that Alden's hold their resale value...

Thanks.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Also, it is interesting to note some thoughts regarding fitting.
> 
> I have worn the following lasts from Alden:
> 
> ...


Thanks - this is super helpful.

Theoden.


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Concert later today, wearing black shell AE Park Ave:


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

cellochris said:


> Concert later today, wearing black shell AE Park Ave:


Sweet!!!!


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

You say blobby, I say classic-and comfortable.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

cellochris said:


> Concert later today, wearing black shell AE Park Ave:


The audience will admire those shoes!


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

richard warren said:


> You say blobby, I say classic-and comfortable.


I totally agree.

However, there has been a strong spirit of Anti-Aldenness on this forum in times past.

Certain parties have criticized Alden for their antiquated lasts and thus favored the more modern and sleek English and Euro lasts instead.

Obviously, I am still a devoted Alden Fan nevertheless.

My point was simply that Alden has a very strong and often overlooked heritage of being orthopedic in nature. That helps to explain why they have lasts that are not quite as sleek, because they are really not meant to be. They have the overall comfort and foot health of the wearer in mind.

On another note, I know that people also sing the praises of vintage Florsheim shell cordovan. But, Alden really is on par with those from what I have seen. If you want to experience what classic American shoemaking used to be...buy a pair of Alden's.

Thanks.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Theoden said:


> ...Though, if I could get it in Ravello in Shell Cordovan I might be convinced ;-)
> 
> --Theoden


In recent times the shell cordovan shade from Alden known as "Ravello" has been one of the most elusive.

To my knowledge, it was early 2015 since any has been delivered and it was at least that long before that. Also, I know of no shop anywhere that has gotten approval to start submitting orders.

Therefore, my advice is that you consider another shoemaker.

Here is an example of my Carmina Cognac Shell Cordovan Long Wing Bluchers:










You may be able to get these in a wide width and Carmina has the cordovan available as well.

Thanks.


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

Theoden said:


> Sweet!!!!





Matt S said:


> The audience will admire those shoes!


Thanks gents!


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> However, there has been a strong spirit of Anti-Aldenness on this forum in times past.
> 
> ...


But, according to "the rules" most of what Alden makes can't really be worn with city/worsted suits: sturdy, double-oak, storm-welt, wide, comfortable shoes.

Though from what I hear, the gunboat look of PTB and LWB from Alden, Florsheim and Allen Edmonds was a staple at IBM in the 50's and 60's and men wore them with suits.

I really do need to get to their store in NYC and try on their various lasts.

-Theoden


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> In recent times the shell cordovan shade from Alden known as "Ravello" has been one of the most elusive.
> 
> To my knowledge, it was early 2015 since any has been delivered and it was at least that long before that. Also, I know of no shop anywhere that has gotten approval to start submitting orders.
> 
> ...


Those are beautiful, but I would need a place to try them on. I have _flat _11 EEE feet. Technically, the Barrrie last works for me because it doesn't curve in and assume you have a high arch.

If Ravello is such a lovely color, why does Alden not make shoes in it anymore?

--Theoden


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Theoden said:


> But, according to "the rules" most of what Alden makes can't really be worn with city/worsted suits: sturdy, double-oak, storm-welt, wide, comfortable shoes.
> 
> Though from what I hear, the gunboat look of PTB and LWB from Alden, Florsheim and Allen Edmonds was a staple at IBM in the 50's and 60's and men wore them with suits.
> 
> ...












^This is the Alden 974 in #8 shell cordovan. Tremont last. Available in wide widths in NYC.

Obviously, a WT oxford that can easily be worn with the finest worsteds.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Theoden said:


> Those are beautiful, but I would need a place to try them on. I have _flat _11 EEE feet. Technically, the Barrrie last works for me because it doesn't curve in and assume you have a high arch.
> 
> If Ravello is such a lovely color, why does Alden not make shoes in it anymore?
> 
> --Theoden


Thank you.

This is a deeper conversation that is very complex. But, in a few words I will give my best synopsis.

There are many factors that play into some of the rarer shades being unavailable.

1. The Horween company has a very limited supply of clear and pristine hides that can be made into the lighter shades of cordovan. I recently had an inside source tell me that only 9 of 100 hides can be used for Whiskey. Ravello is not much darker so the same basic rules also apply.

2. Alden in general has a very different business model. They do not care about meeting the high demand for their rare cordovans. The impression they give is that they would almost rather not make some of those shades.

3. Alden has had trouble finding skilled laborers to take the place of the retiring workers who have been mainstays. The rarer shell hides are more expensive and harder to get. Therefore, more costly to produce.

4. Horween has trouble meeting the high demand of the various makers due to several factors. Example: The horse meat industry in Europe has suffered due to hysteria over certain diseases.

5. Alden is experiencing a revival of interest in their rare models. Some sell on the secondary market for 2-3 times the retail price. This makes them hard to get.

This is just some of the reason why things are the way they are.

Thanks.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Theoden said:


> Those are beautiful, but I would need a place to try them on. I have _flat _11 EEE feet.
> 
> --Theoden


I would recommend a UK 10.5 EEE on the Detroit Last from Carmina.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> I would recommend a UK 10.5 EEE on the Detroit Last from Carmina.


Thanks


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Thank you.
> 
> This is a deeper conversation that is very complex. But, in a few words I will give my best synopsis.
> 
> ...


OK makes sense


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## ASH (Feb 7, 2006)

My Shell rotation collection

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

ASH said:


> My Shell rotation collection


Clever - you protect them from wear by gluing them to the ceiling


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

Very handsome rotation. Worth turning my laptop upside down to see! Are those moc or NST's in the top right corner?


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## Colr (Sep 30, 2014)

WICaniac said:


> The absolute best answer to this question one could possibly receive.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How do you get cordovan so shiny?


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## cellochris (Dec 14, 2015)

ASH - great rotation - fixed that for you!


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

cellochris said:


> ASH - great rotation - fixed that for you!


Awesome!!!!!


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## ASH (Feb 7, 2006)

Theoden said:


> Awesome!!!!!


Thanks, much appreciated

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ASH (Feb 7, 2006)

Theoden said:


> Awesome!!!!!


My latest addition to my Shell collection...




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

ASH said:


> My latest addition to my Shell collection...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ash,

Gorgeous! Who made the shortwings?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Ash:

Sir, yours is a stable of very handsome ponies! A nice collection, for sure. 

My first pair of shell cordovan's was a pair of black AE Leeds that I virtually killed by over polishing them, to the extreme. After that, mirror shined black calf AE Leeds saw me through an extended career with the USAF. However along the way I have seemed to harbor a growing affinity for shell cordovan and have expanded my collection of such to include black, #8, Ravello, chestnut (I think), cigar, and whiskey. Alas the love of shell is a persistent (and expensively treated malady! LOL.


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## jeffreyc (Apr 8, 2010)

Watchman said:


> Alden 9015
> 
> Alden Cap Toe Balmoral on Plaza Last


Great shine on those - AE Cordovan cream or just hard work ??


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## bkdc (Mar 4, 2007)

I love black shell cordovan. The durability and lack of any cracking is itself a justification for the investment. It has a depth and lustre that calfskin cannot match.

If it is looking dull, a little bit of Saphir Renovateur brings back the depth and lustre. Saphir Reno is just amazing for shell cordovan.


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## Marsay (Aug 16, 2016)

The only shoes I find I need to own in black are plain cap-toed Oxfords. The whole idea behind such shoes is tradition and tradition dictates that cap-toed Oxfords should be calf leather with a semi-matt appearance. High gloss Oxfords should only be worn with a dinner suit (and even then preferably without cap). I also find that the optical qualities of black leather make it look rather unattractive when glossy, especially when there are raised and depressed areas as on cap-toed shoes that are worn regularly.

To my eye, shell cordovan - being a touch flash dan to begin with - looks best in colours like burgundy or chestnut on a classic American shoe like a penny loafer. Shell cordovan Oxfords seem like an unpleasant meeting of Old World and New - very Rex Mottram with his bulging brandy snifter and spivvy suits.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

Marsay said:


> The only shoes I find I need to own in black are plain cap-toed Oxfords. The whole idea behind such shoes is tradition and tradition dictates that cap-toed Oxfords should be calf leather with a semi-matt appearance. High gloss Oxfords should only be worn with a dinner suit (and even then preferably without cap). I also find that the optical qualities of black leather make it look rather unattractive when glossy, especially when there are raised and depressed areas as on cap-toed shoes that are worn regularly.
> 
> To my eye, shell cordovan - being a touch flash dan to begin with - looks best in colours like burgundy or chestnut on a classic American shoe like a penny loafer. Shell cordovan Oxfords seem like an unpleasant meeting of Old World and New - very Rex Mottram with his bulging brandy snifter and spivvy suits.


There's a lot of goofy stuff posted in this forum, and IMO this is yet another example of a ferkokteh "tradition" or "rule" perpetuated via iGentry.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Theoden said:


> *It seems that calf can never develop a deep patina like shell does* in Burgundy, Brown or Ravello or even Whiskey over time, but I'm guessing a well polished shoe in black shell, will look, more or less, black. Sure it will have those cordovan rolls, and, perhaps a slight variance in color, but I seldom see anyone post pics of their sexy black shell cordovans.


We must understand the term "patina" very differently. Shell will certainly outshine calf. But as for patina - the subtle variations in shading that develop over time through wear and care - calf leaves shell very far behind in my opinion and experience. Shell just doesn't absorb much in the way of pigment - so an alteration in shade is something it naturally resists, rather than accepts. As compared with, say, a soft premium crust leather, the latter will take on a vastly more interesting evolution in shade over time than any dense, monochromatic shell.

That aside, and onto what I understood to be the main thrust of the thread: I really dig black shell. Precisely because nothing shines like shell. I could really go for a pair of black shell jumper boots. It would be a niche purchase, to be sure, but then I do have the basics covered.


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## Marsay (Aug 16, 2016)

smmrfld said:


> There's a lot of goofy stuff posted in this forum, and IMO this is yet another example of a ferkokteh "tradition" or "rule" perpetuated via iGentry.


Of course you're welcome to wear your shiny Oxfords, and enjoy doing so; I'll go on thinking it was dark in your wardrobe and you picked up your evening shoes by accident.


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## Tribal (Jul 1, 2016)

Theoden, if the AE Park Aves are too narrow, give the new Exchange Place a try. They fit me almost like a glove.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Tribal said:


> Theoden, if the AE Park Aves are too narrow, give the new Exchange Place a try. They fit me almost like a glove.


Yes, I just saw them recently and need to give them a try. Thanks!!!!!


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

Marsay said:


> The only shoes I find I need to own in black are plain cap-toed Oxfords. The whole idea behind such shoes is tradition and tradition dictates that cap-toed Oxfords should be calf leather with a semi-matt appearance. High gloss Oxfords should only be worn with a dinner suit (and even then preferably without cap). I also find that the optical qualities of black leather make it look rather unattractive when glossy, especially when there are raised and depressed areas as on cap-toed shoes that are worn regularly.
> 
> To my eye, shell cordovan - being a touch flash dan to begin with - looks best in colours like burgundy or chestnut on a classic American shoe like a penny loafer. Shell cordovan Oxfords seem like an unpleasant meeting of Old World and New - very Rex Mottram with his bulging brandy snifter and spivvy suits.


Perhaps we have an ironist among us?


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## Peppercorn78 (Aug 2, 2014)

Watchman said:


> I would recommend a UK 10.5 EEE on the Detroit Last from Carmina.


I would be wary of Watchy's advice here. In my experience, the Detroit EEE is halfway between an E and EE on the Alden Barrie last one half size longer. I wear:

10.5 EEE Allen Edmonds
10.5 EE Barrie
10.5 E TruBalance
10 EE John Lobb
10 "EEE" Carmina Detroit

Additionally, the wide version of Detrpit necessitates a special order, so you're either paying +50% for an MTO or joining an existing GMTO, both of which would be nonrefundable.

I love the Detroit EEE last and can fit it, but I took a gamble on it when prices were 25% less and lucked out. Much better luck than I've had with Alden sizing, but I would feel very bad for anyone who paid 1000$ for a Carmina MTO only to have the sizing fail.

On topic, I love black shell, particularly for boss casual boots. I have a pair of black AE Dundees that are super badass. I do prefer calfskin for oxfords, though:



http://imgur.com/5F7txh7

 (Black Dundees)

Here's my Detroit EEE trifecta:

Cognac shell PTB:


http://imgur.com/PtVRMg7

Navy shell LWB:


http://imgur.com/PqWFE9G

Color 8 shell chukka:


http://imgur.com/ApPIDDq


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