# Fogey...



## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Here we go -

This is probably my chance to make _a contribution_...
My name is Russell Street and I am an ex-Fogey...
*All* my family are Fogeys...
I still have Fogey friends from Prep School/Public School/University.
I still have Fogey friends from the BBC.
I turned my back on it all (for all sorts of reasons) to embrace American Traditional style.
I know that you like your American Trads to be *American*, and I respect that.
So...
As pay-back for all the fun you've all given me over the last few weeks (and I know, I know, you didn't intend to entertain me...),
let's do a Fogey thread.
I know this stuff off by heart.
Forwards, backwards, upside down.
All I can give you is the English view - 
'The Official Fogey Handbook' from this side of the Atlantic.
(And I'm very happy that Fogey-ism can be international, in just the same (but opposite) way that some of you don't like the idea that 'American Trad-ism' can have an English/Euro slant.
Let's hammer out a manifesto?
Pick my 'brains'...
What I'm out of touch with my brother will know.

Any takers?

(Look at the offer, not at who is making it, please).

David James


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

Uncle Russ,
Have always enjoyed your contributions- Cananda always seemed to be sartorially more influenced by UK than US trad.
Isnt trad descended from British term trad jazz?
Looking forward to the fogey manifesto..
max


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks for your support 3 Button.

Quick reminder - This is _serious_.

*Fogey Notes:*

1)A Fogey never turns up the collar of his raincoat. All raincoats are called 'Macs', or if he's really feeling his Fogeyness: 'Mackintoshes'.
2) Fogies wear 'spectacles', never 'glasses'.
3) Fogies listen to the 'wireless', never the 'radio'.
4) Fogies have perfect manners, especially when at table. Fogey dinners begin with a very small, very dry, glass of sherry - Usually Tio Pepe.
5) A Fogey goes to the 'lavatory', never the 'toilet'. He 'draws' a bath or 'takes a tub' in the evenings only. He uses tooth *powder*, not paste to clean his teeth. In the bath he scrubs his back with a loofer (loofah? sp?).
6) A Fogey rides his bicycle with the air of one on horseback.
7)Yesterday was better than today. Tomorrow will be even worse.
8) Fogies are passionate people. Their passions are for things like getting really good cheese or hunting down obscure old books. Books are very Fogey. Films are not.
9)Charles, John, Edward, and James are nice Fogey names. Dave and Kev are not. No Fogey called William is ever called Billy.
10)Everything is worn or used until it falls apart. Then it is used even more. Eventually it will be patched up or repaired in a really obvious & messy way. Nothing is ever thrown away. Nothing is as good as it used to be. Nothing new can ever be trusted.

Tip of the Iceberg, Gentlemen.

Can I call in Old Brompton for support?
All contributions welcome.
Look at this as 'Trad to the Max' or something.

Very Best Wishes,

Dave


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Oh yeah - 

While I'm at it...

The Fogey way to talk - 

Forehead is Forrid.
Mantlepeice is Mantleshelf.
Plastic is Plaaaarstic.

We need a Fogey Forum.
This is HUGE!

Dave


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Differences between Fogey and Trad? For instance, Trad=plain front trousers, while Fogey=pleats acceptable? Thanks. Much enjoying this thread!


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Is fogey the same as Nancy Mitford's "U"?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

*Rich* - Spot on! There is loads of U & non-U in Fogey. Mitford being a big chum of Waugh etc.

*Shuman* - The clothes are the same fabrics etc, but with the _English_ cut. Trousers can be plain, but a single inward facing pleat is the most common (Outward facing pleats & double pleats are 'Euro' IMHO).
'American Trad' in London is a Modernist Jazz Hipster's look. Not Fogey & not Trad at all.
This is why I've been misunderstanding you boys. You are doing 'Fogey' dressed (to my London eye) like cool, clean, hard, sharp numbers that I'd expect to see in Ronnie Scotts, J. Simons, or Ray's Jazz shop.
Your American Trad *point of view* is our English Fogey. But the clothes are different.
Your American Trad *clothes* are a part our Soho Modernist culture. Miles away from Fogey. The opposite even.

Interesting?

Dave


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

A Fogey never trims his eyebrows.

The Fogey deodorant/Anti-persperant is a moistened block of Alum (bought from Trumpers) rubbed under the arms.

Scotland is Fogey heaven: Tweed, brogues, macs, _hairy_ sweaters, etc

Dave


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> *Rich* - Spot on! There is loads of U & non-U in Fogey. Mitford being a big chum of Waugh etc.
> 
> ...


Keep it coming.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Business cards aren't Fogey.
Calling cards are.
Plain & simple. Just your name & Fogey address.
Borrow the other chap's pen to write on your telephone number, if you want to give it out. Gives the impression that you've only just got a telephone. Nasty modern contraption.
Never carry a pen yourself. Makes you look like some sort of clerk.

Dave


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## GreyFlannelMan (Jun 16, 2004)

It is said tooth *powder*that explains why the fogey's teeth are rotten and falling out, and said ungroomed eyebrows why fogey is left with women who look like Camilla P-B!


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

These seem more Fogey than Trad. What do you think? Love them. 



Also, Fogey would use straight razor rather than disposable blades. Damn, those Mach 3 blades are ridiculous. And I dont like electrics. Maybe I'll look into straight razors...


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

Run us through the fogey closet. What's hanging, what's folded. Dressing day to day, what changes, what's a constant. Give us an outfit for each season, shoes to hat, what do you have on in winter spring summer and fall. I know it's a lot but I'd like imagery of the fogey as a fashion icon and less as a lifestyle icon. I know the two are hard to seperate with things like repairing clothes over and over, but paint us a picture. Or even better, post a bunch of pictures. 
Thanks, I'm enjoying this.

_____________________________________________________________________________
I am no enemy of elegance, but I say no man has a right to think of elegance till he has secured substance, nor then, to seek more of it than he can afford. 

John Adams


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by GreyFlannelMan_
> 
> It is said tooth *powder*that explains why the fogey's teeth are rotten and falling out, and said ungroomed eyebrows why fogey is left with women who look like Camilla P-B!


Fogey teeth are often a little brown & usually crooked. Fogies smoke too. This is probably the first _really_ big difference between the UK Fogey & the US Trad? (Apart from the *cut* of their clothes)
Fogey women are very 'no nonsense', but they can be quite jolly & sporting.

D.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> These seem more Fogey than Trad. What do you think? Love them.
> 
> Also, Fogey would use straight razor rather than disposable blades. Damn, those Mach 3 blades are ridiculous. And I dont like electrics. Maybe I'll look into straight razors...


'Fun' clothing isn't Fogey.
A Fogey shave is always a wet shave.
Straight razors are used by the Fogey's barber (never 'hairdresser') at Trumpers or Trufitt & Hill. At home the Fogey uses a safety razor. You need to be _really_ expert to use a straight razor IMO.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by familyman_
> 
> Run us through the fogey closet. What's hanging, what's folded. Dressing day to day, what changes, what's a constant. Give us an outfit for each season, shoes to hat, what do you have on in winter spring summer and fall. I know it's a lot but I'd like imagery of the fogey as a fashion icon and less as a lifestyle icon. I know the two are hard to seperate with things like repairing clothes over and over, but paint us a picture. Or even better, post a bunch of pictures.
> Thanks, I'm enjoying this.
> ...


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

No 3 button rolled to 2.
High rolled three is Fogey-est.
Not to be fashionable, but to look back to Edward VII.


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## Chris H (Oct 30, 2004)

Hello Russell,

I wondered if you think Boris Johnson fits in to the young fogey type. He appears to have the background and mindset, but he sometimes wears modern sportswear when out on his bicycle.

Prince Charles is the perfect example of an 'old fogey' in his actions and thinking. I don't consider his dress style fogey, purely because he employs professionals to dress him properly. It might be a different matter if he dressed himself.

Chris


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## Chris H (Oct 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> ['American Trad' in London is a Modernist Jazz Hipster's look. Not Fogey & not Trad at all.
> This is why I've been misunderstanding you boys. You are doing 'Fogey' dressed (to my London eye) like cool, clean, hard, sharp numbers that I'd expect to see in Ronnie Scotts, J. Simons, or Ray's Jazz shop.
> Your American Trad *point of view* is our English Fogey. But the clothes are different.
> ...


Spot on Russell.

In retrospect, this is maybe something that we europeans ought to have made clearer earlier on.

If I remember correctly, Horace alluded to this in a couple of his posts.

Chris


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Chris H_
> 
> Hello Russell,
> 
> ...


Hi Chris -

Boris Johnson is 90% Fogey. His background is _very_ Fogey. He puts it on a bit though.

Prince Charles has a Fogey brain. If he dressed himself he could set himself up as leader of the Fogies maybe.

Dave


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

So who are the American Fogies?
Am I right in that the attitudes I have listed are similar to the American Trad mindset?

D.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Here's a really Fogey detail -

Never carry a pen, but carry a silver engraved 'Yard-O-Lead' propelling pencil. Monogram it, & if you can attach it to yout watch-chain then all the better.

My dear brother wants me to point out that what I (an outsider) call Fogey style, he (a Fogey) would just call Gentlemanly.

That surely is your American Trad in America, yes?
*Gentlemanly* style.

D.


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## Daniele (Dec 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 'American Trad' in London is a Modernist Jazz Hipster's look. Not Fogey & not Trad at all.
> This is why I've been misunderstanding you boys. You are doing 'Fogey' dressed (to my London eye) like cool, clean, hard, sharp numbers that I'd expect to see in Ronnie Scotts, J. Simons, or Ray's Jazz shop.
> Your American Trad *point of view* is our English Fogey. But the clothes are different.
> ...


Very well phrased Dave, indeed!

Cheers,

Daniele


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Praise indeed from you D.

I remain a fan,

David


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Here's a really Fogey detail -
> 
> Never carry a pen, but carry a silver engraved 'Yard-O-Lead' propelling pencil. Monogram it, & if you can attach it to yout watch-chain then all the better.


Goodness! My (English) godmother gave me one (duly monogrammed) for my 21st birthday (a long time ago). I've still got it. I never use it, partly because it's so heavy - in fact I'd forgotten about it. I'm getting it out as soon as I get home. Thanks Russell.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Goodness! My (English) godmother gave me one (duly monogrammed) for my 21st birthday (a long time ago). I've still got it. I never use it, partly because it's so heavy - in fact I'd forgotten about it. I'm getting it out as soon as I get home. Thanks Russell.
[/quote]

Let's be really _vulgar_, Rich!

I think you'll find that your 'Yard-o-Lead' is worth more than you might think!

Dave


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

*Vettriano*, my brother -

Please bring 'Trimmer', 'Brideshead', & 'Hugh Morrison', from 'The Other Place' to the party?

Here's another:
One's 'Sit-Upon' (behind) is often called one's 'Chuff'... Or is that just a Rugby thing?

Even worse: " I don't like them, they look as though they dunk their biscuits in each other's cocoa". ???????? !!!!!!!!!

(Edit: A horrible expression from my horrible school. Not my sentiments at all.)

Not long now before Malinda has words with me again.
Ho Hum.

_Davo_


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> *Vettriano*, my brother -
> 
> Please bring 'Trimmer', 'Brideshead', & 'Hugh Morrison', from 'The Other Place' to the party?


I am not sure if I am fogey enough to camp (as it were) here. I think of myself as 'radical-trad' which is certainly not US trad (definitely no button-downs)and a little too 'dandy' for UK 'fogey'.

I like velvet collars, cravats, spit-and-shine polished shoes, windowpane checks, red socks, pocket squares, fur hats and collars, brightly coloured - but formal - shirts . . .

Trimmer

_Waugh intended Trimmer to stand for much of what he detested - jazz culture, popular radio, the disinclination of the semi-educated to accept their subordinate status. What Waugh really fears about him is his ability to slide via cocktail bar patter into familiarity with his betters._


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

My Dear 'Trimmer',

Always thought your name was a Waugh ref., but didn't like to intrude.
Wise not to call yourself 'Hooper'.
There *is* a place for you here... if you want it.
What colour is the collar on your covert coat?
Just interested.

We have to be careful with 'camp' on Ask Andy ("The lie that tells the truth" etc.).
But you are bang on (as ever) with what is going on here.

'Fogey' is open to all. At its *worst* it is a crusty Sloan in SW3, at its best it is witty, flippant, stylish *bucks* knocking around the west-end. Isn't everything?

I'm no snob. Like any style, Fogey can be re-invented for the Fogey concerned...
Why can't there be a whole rainbow of grey? 

Only a very poor joke. I do kinda respect the stylistic rigour of *the Foge*.

(Wish I could spell... but Fogey education doesn't run to that... My last year at school we had a lesson on how to shake hands... sounds funny, but it's not.)

Davey


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

...forty-five years ago at my prep school, we had strict lessons on etiquette including how to wear and use the school cap when in the presence of a known lady - more specifically how to remove it from one's head, then swing it in an upwards / forwards direction at the correct speed, then replace it back onto one's head again - and I was forced to do this every day, even to my mother. No joke. Honest.

...and the habit has remained with me to this day. [^] [:I]


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Fogey Covert Coats:

NB: 'Covert' is pronounced 'Ku-Vut', never 'co-vert', and not even 'cover' (I'm only here to help).

Plain collar = Hardcore* Foge*.
Deep Green Velvet Collar: 'Cordings'.
Deep Brown Velvet collar: 'Harvey & Hudson'.
Any other coloured velvet collar that you fancy: Probably 'Hackett' now-a-days, or old bespoke. Plum looks good, albeit a bit 'racy'.

My dear brother (No irony here - I really do love the boy) wears my father's 1959 _Toffey_ (sp? I can't spell for toffey...) coloured velvet collared 'Ku-Vut' coat. Bespoke from Huntsman. A coat that cost more than his honeymoon (I inherited all the receipts)!

All this is is sociology.

Davey


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> ...forty-five years ago at my prep school, we had strict lessons on etiquette including how to wear and use the school cap when in the presence of a known lady - more specifically how to remove it from one's head, then swing it in an upwards / forwards direction at the correct speed, then replace it back onto one's head again - and I was forced to do this every day, even to my mother. No joke. Honest.
> 
> ...and the habit has remained with me to this day. [^] [:I]


That isn't you is it, *Ratty-Tatty*?
I'm sure I'm wrong... What are the odds?
So funny if it was you, R-T.
Remember the time we bunked off and took the train down to Euston?
All you wanted to do was to go to the V&A.
All I wanted to do was to aimlessly walk around Soho and get some cigarettes?

PLEASE let it be you!

David James


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> My Dear 'Trimmer',
> 
> ...


Who said I had a covert coat? How much do you know? Watch out V-M!


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## Chris H (Oct 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> We have to be careful with 'camp' on Ask Andy ("The lie that tells the truth" etc.).


What were those younger chaps at Public School that had to do all the 'chores' called?..........[:0]


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Goodness! My (English) godmother gave me one (duly monogrammed) for my 21st birthday (a long time ago). I've still got it. I never use it, partly because it's so heavy - in fact I'd forgotten about it. I'm getting it out as soon as I get home. Thanks Russell.





> quote:Let's be really _vulgar_, Rich!
> 
> I think you'll find that your 'Yard-o-Lead' is worth more than you might think!
> 
> Dave


Found it! Rather tarnished, in original case with original instructions leaflet. It turns out to be a "De Luxe" model. Birmingham hallmark with 1966 date letter. I've polished it up (not too much!) and it looks very fogeyish. As soon as I can find the requisite imperial size leads I'm putting it back into service. I expect it's worth a few bob, as you suggest. Do you think there's a Yard-o-Led owners' club anywhere?


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

_
O Tempora! O Mores!_


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> _
> O Tempora! O Mores!_


*Very* Fogey!


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Do you think there's a Yard-o-Led owners' club anywhere?
[/quote]

Yard-o-Leads are *hugely* collectable...
And a 1966 De-luxe?

VERY nice.

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Relax Trimmer, just an inspired guess. You sounded like a Covert Coat kinda guy.

While I'm always keen to swell the numbers of the London Trad's Army, I just thought that you English Trad guys might have an opinion here.
I think that English Trads (& especially Fogies) share the American Trad world-view, but not the same clothes.
Where as we English and Italian Ivy league dressers share the American Trad wardrobe, but not the same way of looking at the world.

That's my only point here.
Listing English Fogey attributes is fun and I hope some of them might ring bells with our American friends.
A Trad mind would seem to be a Trad mind the world over. But each culture's Trad 'uniform' differs.
As I said earlier, American Trad clothes in London have an opposite to 'Traditional' meaning.
I might share Harris's wardrobe (for example, & I use H's name with respect), but I'm sure that Harris would agree that I certainly don't share his outlook.

That's all.

Oh - Lapels on waistcoats: Very Fogey.

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> ...well Mr James, I am disappointed you took a wide berth round my tease!


Morning!
I wasn't ignoring you, just replying to posts in a rather random order.
Thought I'd save the one I could have the most fun with till last!
Hove, eh? Not Lancing. Very handy for Brighton is Hove. 
I once knew a man who had a little shop in the Lanes...
Blah, blah, blah, 

All the best -

Dave


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

David - yes, this particular prep school had strong links with Brighton College and all those who passed the thirteen plus went there or either Lancing or Ardingly Colleges - we all played rugby against each other so knew one another from college to college. 

ps - are you British or American?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> ps - are you British or American?


Oddly, I'm very British: Rugby, Brasenose, BBC, I'm an accountant.
But it all went wrong...
Hated Rugby, walked out of Brasenose, walked out of the BBC.
Always kept comming back to Soho.
Lived (part time) in London all my life, Chelsea & now Westminster.
Spent the rest of my time in Oxfordshire & now Gloucestershire.
I just really like Ivy clothes & Jazz & messing around.
I really, really *love* messing around.
It's a real handicap.

How about you? What did you do after Hove? Why do you like English clothes? Would you call yourself an English Trad?

Best Wishes -

David


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

I'm told the true fogey uses a coronation mug as a shaving bowl.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> I'm told the true fogey uses a coronation mug as a shaving bowl.


You should see the prices the (produced but never issued) Edward VIII ones go for!

Fogey investment tips:
Yard-o-Leads
Edward VIII stuff

David


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I am enjoying the discussion of/about Fogeyism quite a lot. It's nice to simply listen--or, rather, read--without offering commentary. I remain blissfully ignorant and eager to learn more...

Cheers,
Harris


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now you won't believe this, but I have an Edward VIII coronation mug -I've never used it as a shaving bowl, though. As you say, they were never issued, and had to be destroyed after the abdication, but some got away and ended up in the curio market. When I have a moment I'll take a photo of it and post it up. Am I sitting on a fortune?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> I am enjoying the discussion of/about Fogeyism quite a lot. It's nice to simply listen--or, rather, read--without offering commentary. I remain blissfully ignorant and eager to learn more...
> 
> ...


Sorry to use your name to try to make one of my 'points'.
Truely your fascinating posts are what brought me here.
I'm really interested by how we wear the same clothes but are polar opposites...
I think we are both 'sons of the establishment' - 
You wisely enjoy your birthright, I try to escape it -
And we both end up wearing the same clothes!

Interesting?

Best Wishes -

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And your name again is...?

Oh yeah - *RICH * !

David


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> How about you? What did you do after Hove? Why do you like English clothes? Would you call yourself an English Trad?


After prep at Hove, to college at Brighton, then on to art school followed by the London grindstone for the next twenty-six years employed as a graphic designer, becoming self-employed and sliding into my dotage by the seaside with pipe and slippers!

Always dapper style wise - hipsters 'Eric Clapton' in the sixties, kipper-ties and flares 'Gatsby' in the seventies, adopted the eighties Margaret Howell look after 'Chariots', then went business safe and boring in the nineties, which led into classic 'Andy' and part-time fogey in the new millenium! Does that qualify me as an English Trad? [)]

_(Trimmer, old bean, what am I letting myself in for here? - Help!)_ [:0]


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Fogey Watch Chains:

Worn on the waistcoat is a little 'trying to hard'.
Wear your watch chain from your lapel buttonhole as you might a flower.
Wear it with the T bar facing out.
Run the chain down *behind* your lapel and into your jacket breast pocket behind your handkerchief (Silk for showing, cotton for blowing, etc).
Watch chains rarely terminate in a fob watch these days, although sometimes they do. Wear a fob, a seal, a crest, or a silver Yard-o-Lead pencil instead (Unclip the pencil to use, obviously).
Single chains, double chains, all are good. In silver, very _yellow_ old gold, or be like the Street family and wear rose gold. All show up well against brown/green/fawn/grey tweeds or navy or grey pinstripe/chalkstripe/plainweave suits.

It's a nice touch.
It's Fogey with a capital F.

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're much more interesting than me!
Bryan Ferry's style journey echos your own maybe?
Not the _excesses_ of Bryan (Dressing like a G.I. on stage etc), but the _evolution_ of taste and style.
If I'm way off tell me.
I love the way *arty* people have 'periods' of dress just like Picasso had periods in art (Blue, etc).
I fell in love with Ivy & my clock stopped at that point.
Forever at the point when I first encountered J.Simons.

I bet you've had at least 5 different hair styles too.

Style is all any of us ever *really* has, I often think.
Take away style and everything is so... _unsatisfying_.

D.

Edit: Dear me, I am a _whimsical_ old dear tonight, aren't I? Time Uncle Russell had a little spot of sherry...


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> ...then when you hear old Big Ben strike midnight through your Westminster windows you know it's time to put the stripey nightshirt on and dream, of ...English Trad!


Don't give an old man nightmares!
English Trad?
Those insecure collar points left without being buttoned down to the body of the shirt?
Those funny jackets with stuff in their shoulders?
Those odd folds of material at the waistband of your trousers?
And what are those funny lines on the front of your jackets that look like someone has come at you with a knife and tried to slice out your innards down each side?

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Not nice.

D.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Fogey hats:
Brown fur felt Fedora from Lock (Brown in town!). Fogies never wash their hair in the morning so their heads are more adhesive than your's or mine. Keeps their hats on when on their bikes.
Tweed caps in the country. Brown is Fogeyest, then green.

Fogey pyjamas:
Drawstring waist only. Plain or checked with piping round the collar & cuffs, usually Derek Rose. Wooly old dressing gown - plain or checked. Bathrobes aren't Fogey.

David


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## Taxi_driver (Mar 19, 2006)

Just an observation....In the cab I find that fogeys in general are not the best tippers, our American friends are much more generous.

Fred


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Taxi_driver_
> 
> Just an observation....In the cab I find that fogeys in general are not the best tippers, our American friends are much more generous.
> 
> Fred


And I'm afraid that the Fogey answer to that is 'Why should I pay you twice for merely doing your job?' 
Not_ all_ the world loves a Fogey because of this kind of attitude.

D.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Literally just been phoned up from Fogey central by my bro.
Fogey pyjamas are plain or *striped*, not checked.

We live & learn.

David


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## Marcus Bergman (Mar 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Fogey hats:
> Brown fur felt Fedora from Lock (Brown in town!). Fogies never wash their hair in the morning so their heads are more adhesive than your's or mine. Keeps their hats on when on their bikes.
> ...


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Hello Marcus!

Welcome to the fun.
I can see your hat fitting in very well in Fogey-land.
Broken veins on the bridge of the nose are *very* Fogey.
Every Fogey secretly wishes that he also had gout. Probably the most Fogey ailment.
You agree that brown is the most Fogey hat colour?
I'd love to hear about Swedish Fogies if you ever have the time.
Be assured that this thread is serious.
I'm just listing English Fogeyness here.
International Fogeyness would be even better!
What is the 'Trad' tradition in *your* homeland?

Best Wishes & *Welcome* again -

David


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## Marcus Bergman (Mar 29, 2006)

Dear Russel,

Thank you so much for the warm -- and prompt -- welcome. Yes, I do agree that brown is the fogey hat colour of preference. Also brown gloves, of course. Preferably unlined and always Pickett or Budd. 

I reside in the western part of Sweden, where geographical and cultural proximity to England is quite noticeable, and has been for a long time (archelogical artefacts from the Viking ages indicate intensive trade with England.) Swedish fogey is therefore pretty much English fogey, but perhaps more of a statement, as in relation to contemporary fashion. For some reasons, Swedes in general tend to embrace novelty fashion with great enthusiasm. Fogey thus becomes a self-conscious choice, almost an underground movement with an element of dandy-ism thrown in for fun. 


Cheers,

Marcus Bergman


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> I'm Westminster Dave, I rise for a shave,
> And saunter along like a trad,
> ...


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Marcus Bergman_
> 
> Dear Russel,
> 
> ...


*Really* interesting, thanks.
What are Swedish Trad attitudes like? Similar to English Fogey or American Trad (Thrift, etc.)?

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> David, come along and meet the other troups (London AAAC members) - there will be another gathering soon in one of the city watering holes.


I'll sort out my email & we'll fix it up.
Only one of you at a time is allowed to beat me up.

D.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Button flies?


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

_I'll slip this one in before Big Ben chimes in and takes over again..._

Can beards be fogey? - and if so what style and length is correct?


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> _I'll slip this one in before Big Ben chimes in and takes over again..._
> 
> Can beards be fogey? - and if so what style and length is correct?


Yes, and two styles from which to choose:

and


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> *Wear your watch chain from your lapel buttonhole as you might a flower. Wear it with the T bar facing out...
> Run the chain down behind your lapel and into your jacket breast pocket behind your handkerchief (Silk for showing, cotton for blowing, etc)..*


 Every-day. The Fogey way.

I cherish that moment approaching a stranger when, as they begin to decide just which part of me is most unusual, their eyes lower to the small gold chain snaking its way from behind my left lapel down and then back up again and down into my breast pocket, behind the pocket-square. Their brows furrow slightly as they try and deduce the meaning of...well, the meaning of _all this_, and hence

_Honi soit qui mal y pense_.​


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> _I'll slip this one in before Big Ben chimes in and takes over again..._
> 
> Can beards be fogey? - and if so what style and length is correct?


*Big Ben?* More proof that you went to school with me! How else could you know my locker-room nick-name? 
Button flys are Fogey to the max. Good point *Rich*! 
*JLPWCXIII* is the Fogey authority here & I defer to him absolutely. Spot-on beards!

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Here's one to kick around - 
The Brown *Oxford* style brogue is far Fogier than what our American friends would call the Wingtip style brogue.
Discuss?

D.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Here's one to kick around -
> The Brown *Oxford* style brogue is far Fogier than what our American friends would call the Wingtip style brogue.
> ...


By Oxford style brogue do you mean a medallion captoe brogue? If so yes, it's fogier than a wingtip - wingtips are dressy. Old but well polished, and worn with itchy socks? - just guessing here.

P.S. Is the term "wingtip" American?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes to Captoe Brogue.
Yes to itchy socks. Dark itchy socks all year round with everything, even sandals.
Wingtip and Long Wingtip are American expressions, yes.
Are you a Fogey yourself, Rich?

D.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_
> Are you a Fogey yourself, Rich?
> 
> D.
> ...


_

No, we don't really have them over here - and I'm wearing wingtips and a Hugo Boss suit as a I type this, which I'm sure disqualifies me. However, later tonight I shall be putting on a pair of my Hilditch & Key pyjamas, striped, with full piping and tape drawstring. I think I have distant Fogey roots._


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_

A Fogey by night! _


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

More Fogeyness:
Signet rings on the little finger, left hand. Crest or initials. Four initials is good. 3 is fine. Yellow/Rose gold.
Wedding rings are for Fogey wives only. Goes back to the 'good' old days.
Cufflinks & tie clips and pins are Fogey, especially when inherited. Collar pins/bars are not - they're a little too 'flash' for England.
No Fogey has a wallet. He has a _notecase_.
Silk linings in jackets & suits are plain, never paisley, striped or polka/pin dots, but they can be any colour you like within reason. Bottle Green is nice (Pakeman, Catto and Carter line their stuff in Green... PCC is an up and comming _new_ Fogey name, but they are blowing it by having too many colourful items in their catalogues!). Gold is good. A Brown Herringbone with a soft rose silk lining isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Nobody but you and your wife will *ever* see the lining, as Fogeys always button up (Middle button only).

D.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

...David, I'm not so sure about signet rings being particularly 'fogey' - more sloaney perhaps - but I believe 'fogey' covers all the the social classes and is more 'gentleman specific' than 'class specific'. In my hometown I often see elderly gentlemen, real gentlemen _(the courteous type with manners)_ who are clearly good old salt-of-the-earth working class and they dress the way they have always dressed - perhaps a bit safe and dull in drab grey and beige 'Dunn's style' - but immaculately, wearing a cap and tie and spit'n'polished shoes _(learned from the army)_. To me, that's the heart of 'fogey'.

As for signet rings, NO INITIALS please. Very common indeed - I expect they can be bought in chain jewellers and engraved while one waits - but they show the absurdity of the lower classes trying to ape the toffs. One can never challenge a crest going back to William the Conqueror - they just won't let you in the hellfire club with initials. _"What Jeeves? With respect, Sir, I recall they didn't let you in anyway. Er... yes, quite Jeeves!"_

Isn't there a song? - _"A fogey day, in London town..."_ [)]


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

*Brilliant* post, Mr Vettriano!

Gentlemanly style (Fogey style) is to do with _real_ class, not social class.
The English Gentleman is an English man who is a gentleman. Nothing to do with birth or occupation, but to do with manners & integrity.
Always so many more *real* gentlemen in every other class than the English upper classes.
Mr. Vettriano's post blows all my observations based on one family's quirks clean out of the water.
AND a brilliant joke at the end!
AND he's right about the rings - Initials are upper middle class trying to ape the Aristos with their family crests. Lowest of the low is the psuedo family crest knocked up by the College of Heralds to flatter the vanity of a middle-class-made-good family who owes it's social position to trade.
Just a brilliant post!

More whenever you are in the mood Sir.

Sincerely - Dave


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> who owes it's social position to trade.


Buying cheap and selling dear..._is not social_. [^]



> quote:As for signet rings, NO INITIALS please. Very common indeed - I expect they can be bought in chain jewellers and engraved while one waits - but they show the absurdity of the lower classes trying to ape the toffs. One can never challenge a crest going back to William the Conqueror - they just won't let you in the hellfire club with initials. "What Jeeves? With respect, Sir, I recall they didn't let you in anyway. Er... yes, quite Jeeves!"


No initials, indeed. Not only common, but _patently_ prole. Forget one's crest on the ring...far better to simply have one's heraldic badge on it. The truest anachro-gentleman endorses documents by pressing his signet into red sealing wax, which he has elegantly dripped over the vulgar signature blank (melted - of course - with wooden matches, never butane [xx(]). The look on a clerk's face more than justifies the trouble.



> quote:I believe 'fogey' covers all the the social classes and is more 'gentleman specific' than 'class specific'. In my hometown I often see elderly gentlemen, real gentlemen (the courteous type with manners) who are clearly good old salt-of-the-earth working class and they dress the way they have always dressed - perhaps a bit safe and dull in drab grey and beige 'Dunn's style' - but immaculately, wearing a cap and tie and spit'n'polished shoes (learned from the army). To me, that's the heart of 'fogey'.


_'To endure is greater than to dare; to tire out hostile fortune; to be daunted by no difficulty; to keep heart when all have lost it - who can say this is not greatness?' _

-Thackeray​


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> *Brilliant* post, Mr Vettriano!
> 
> ...


Boy, you guys are vicious! Of course, I speak as a member of an American middle-class-family-made-good who owes our social position to "trade."

Good stuff.

Cheers,
Harris


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Now you see why some of us opted out of all this  to follow Ivy style!

Life is so much _better_ when you can just *sling* on a button-down, *button up* your Bill's, and *shrug* on a Herringbone sack, before you *slip* into your Weejuns & head for the street (with a silk knit tie rolled up in your jacket pocket, just in case you need one later...).
*Smooth.
Cool.
Clean.
Hard.
Neat.*

All the Best -

D.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

I love that line spoken at the dinner table by Lady Marchmain in Brideshead Revisited when she stops Sebastian just in time from saying something that might let the side down:

"Not in front of the servants, dear!"

_"How life has changed, what Jeeves? Sir, nothing ever changes in this household - not even my wages. Mmmm, quite Jeeves." [:I]_


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Oddly, I'm very British: Rugby, Brasenose, BBC, I'm an accountant.
> But it all went wrong...
> ...


David, that scans like a Smiths song. Actually, the entire paragraph does. 

Viyella tattersalls are fantastic.


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## Goblin (Jan 31, 2006)

> quote:
> David, that scans like a Smiths song. Actually, the entire paragraph does.


That's probably the funniest thing I've ever read here.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by VS_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL !!!!   
...
I would go out tonight - 
But I haven't got a stitch to wear -

D.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

David - remind me to talk about Gloucestershire with you. Are you in Cirencester by any chance, since you mentioned Pakeman Catto and Carter? There is a fabulous fogey shop there called R. Scott and & Co. Ltd in Castle Street - a gentlemans' outfitter celebrating 100 years of business - offering the kind of old-fashioned courteous service that was 'usual' in past years with the most wonderful range of good county stock - perhaps you know it already? Also lots of seventeenth century oak furniture dealers in abundance there. I stayed in Cirencester and Chippenham last year and left my heart there. Let's talk!


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm confused. Please edify. "Smiths"?

-Harris


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My favorite band of all time. Very clever lyrics. Some find them a bit _mopey_.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiths

And if a double-decker bus
Crashes into us
To die by your side
Is such a heavenly way to die
And if a ten-ton truck
Kills the both of us
To die by your side
Well, the pleasure - the privilege is mine

- From "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out"


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi VS!

So many great lyrics to choose from!

... And the pain was enough to make a shy, bald budhist reflect and plan a mass murder. Who said I lied to her? Who said I lied - because I never, I never...etc.

Off 'Strangways here we come', I think.

D.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> David - remind me to talk about Gloucestershire with you. Are you in Cirencester by any chance, since you mentioned Pakeman Catto and Carter? There is a fabulous fogey shop there called R. Scott and & Co. Ltd in Castle Street - a gentlemans' outfitter celebrating 100 years of business - offering the kind of old-fashioned courteous service that was 'usual' in past years with the most wonderful range of good county stock - perhaps you know it already? Also lots of seventeenth century oak furniture dealers in abundance there. I stayed in Cirencester and Chippenham last year and left my heart there. Let's talk!


Small world!
Scott's is _hardcore_ Fogey. Very good Trad MTM there.
PCC are the wannabes.
Cirencester is 30 mins away-ish.
Good Beef Wellington at 'Serendipity' in Chippenham. If they are still going.
'Harry Hare's' in Cirencester is my favourite though.

David


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

David - I dined at Harry Hare's in the back garden (I have an amusing tale to tell about that, but not online) and at the Corinium Hotel - great places. I've asked Andy to email you with my address so that we can talk about the next AAAC London meeting.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> David - I dined at Harry Hare's in the back garden (I have an amusing tale to tell about that, but not online) and at the Corinium Hotel - great places. I've asked Andy to email you with my address so that we can talk about the next AAAC London meeting.


Lovely thought.
I'm in Harrogate at the moment spending time with *my* uncle for a change, but will be back to the Cotswolds next week. My London trips are very as-&-when at the moment... I've let my Brother-in-Law use the flat for a bit.
Where on the coast are you now?

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Hi VS!
> 
> ...


----------



## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> David - I dined at Harry Hare's in the back garden (I have an amusing tale to tell about that, but not online) and at the Corinium Hotel - great places. I've asked Andy to email you with my address so that we can talk about the next AAAC London meeting.


Sorry to use this post as my answerphone - 
*Young Mr. Vettriano* - I'm staying in Yorkshire 'till Thursday, then I'll be in touch. 
My dear old Uncle George is a bit poorly...
You'd like him - He used to be just like Rex Harrison in 'My Fair Lady' (very Fogey!), now he's getting on he's more like Chuchill...
Have you any uncles left?
If you have, you'll know what they're worth.

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

When do I get my own 'Russell Street' Forum?


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Is this Fogey?

https://imageshack.us


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> When do I get my own 'Russell Street' Forum?


 Let's see, a niche for those that are interested in:gay trads, Montgomery Clift photos, conjecture about Tucker Carlson's sexual persuasion, and playing with yourself in the bath tub.......be still my heart!

Carpe Diem


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

David, thank you for the invitation.

Despite my name I only embrace certain Fogey traits. I do live in the past; I dislike new technology for its own sake (although I am using a computer at the moment); I prefer books to films; I tend not to throw things away....

Would a Fogey always breakfast in his dressing gown and slippers? I presume he would always serve himself at breakfast.

Would a Fogey always take a mac (Mackintosh) with him even on a very clement day?

BTW my wife (who's late father was Irish but lived for a long time in Canada) displays many Fogey traits, herself. When recently ordering a new car (OK that's not Fogey) she asked the salesman what kind of wireless it had[:0] I nearly choked on my coffee.

I do like the thread and will dip in when I can.

John (got a real Fogey name apparently)


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Intrepid_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear young Intrepid - He's seen right through me again!
But at least he's a Trad and so he's OK by me.
I just hope that one day he'll learn to call me 'Uncle'... 

xxxxxxx David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brideshead_
> 
> David, thank you for the invitation.
> 
> ...


Brideshead Fogies:
Cousin Jasper
Charles' Father
Bridey
Charles' Scout (can't remember name)
And in the end... Charles himself!

Agree/Disagree?

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> Is this Fogey?
> 
> https://imageshack.us


Fogey with a big gun!

D.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

Ref. Brideshead fogeys I do agree. 

Bit difficult to say in the case of Charles as he was of course in the Army right at the end. If you are perhaps thinking of the exchange with Anthony in the 'louche little bar' after the art exhibition then Anthony accused him of being a fogey but, of course, chose rather different words in which to do so!

The scout was named 'Lunt' BTW.

I would say that Collins and the small circle in the first term at Oxford were also Fogeys. Cordelia was a female fogey!


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> I love that line spoken at the dinner table by Lady Marchmain in Brideshead Revisited when she stops Sebastian just in time from saying something that might let the side down:
> 
> "Not in front of the servants, dear!"


Lady Marchmain never says any such thing, nor would she.

There is a passage later in the book where Bridey is at the dinner table, about to announce his engagement, and "made a grimace which I took to mean 'not in front of the servants.' " Probably you are thinking of that.

Edit: There are only two passages with Lady Marchmain and Sebastian at the dinner table. She never addresses him directly in either one.


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## First among equals (Mar 24, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear David although not a card-carrying Fogey/Trad I share a very similar pedigree and interests - Dunchurch Winton Hall; Rugby, should have gone to Harrow; and a school in the western former Colonies of no importance. Always wanted to be a Guardsman. Love jazz (the real stuff - not Muzak masqurading as jazz, gardening, country pursuits, get annoyed at the lack of manners in society.

Hated Rugby, hated Uni, family maintains a place in The City (W1).

First among equals

PS: Do not own a Chelsea Tractor, yet


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! What knowledge! Lady Marchmain, whatever her various 'faults' must surely be one of the most complete and accomplished women in 20th C literature.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was referring not to the book itself, but the television series where the words are indeed hushly spoken across the table by lady Marchmain to Sebastian.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I must say I don't recall that incident. There are of course a number of variations between book and TV adaptation. Which scene was this, do you recall?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

*Brideshead* really ought to have its own thread!
Its influence on 'Young Fogey' was huge.
Fogeys love Brideshead but pretend not to because it's a bit _obvious_ to love it.
But they love it all the same.
Care to start one *'Brideshead'*?
It would be English Trad & English Fogey, with a crossover influence on our American Fogey Brothers too, I'm sure (as always, correct me when I'm wrong).

*Harris*, as ever, is spot-on in his analysis of American Fogey. In the US you have American Fogey as the High-Church of American Trad. In the UK we have English Fogey as the High-Church of Sloan Rangerdom.

Me? I just really like Ivy clothes, Jazz and messing around...
I really, really love messing around...
It's a real handicap.

D.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by First among equals_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello!
So how did you escape then?
Soho?
How do you dress?

If you went to Rugby you always wanted to have been at Harrow, if you went to Harrow you always wanted to have been at Eton!
I suspect I'd have been better educated at a normal school, meself. Who can tell?

D.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

Excellent thread.

I have always had fogey tendencies, but this was never 'codified' until recently when I managed to track down a copy of the Young Fogey Handbook (thanks Anthony) which is about as rare as a Gutenberg Bible.

A summary of fogey traits, based on the book and my own views:

Fogey formal: very old, slightly rotting morning coat, vintage grey weskit, detachable collar, frayed tie with pea sized knot. Similar quality white tie and tails.

Fogey semi-formal, evening: old dinner jacket, inherited or from charity shop. Frayed bow tie knotted badly, partly from laziness and partly to prove it's not a clip on. Old velvet smoking jacket for less formal occasions.

Fogey semi formal, day. Very old, possibly demob or Utility Mark/Wartime Economy Standard grey 3 piece 3sb suit. Frayed white or striped shirt, plain tie. Battered trilby hat. Covert coat or ancient Chesterfield or similar, or stained rubber mackintosh. Shoes probably brogues or bluchers. Long college scarf, faded and a bit stained.

Fogey casual: ancient Harris tweed 3sb sports jacket, or possibly corduroy, with taped cuffs and patched elbows, thick sweater of the type worn by Scott's expedition, or possibly army surplus No2 dress pullover. Tattershal shirt and plain woolen tie. Shapeless pleated flannel or corduroy trousers. Old brown brogues, possibly pebbledashed (no scatological pun intended, unless perhaps the fogey has been using a French public lavatory)

Fogey summer: linen suit, going out at the elbows and very wrinkled, or cotton pleated khaki or navy trousers with open striped shirt, sleeves rolled up to just below elbow (or just above for ex-army fogies)

Fogey transport: Old Pashley roadster bicycle with basket, or 1970s road bike done up to look like one. White blackout stripe painted on rear mudguard. Normal clothes worn with cycle clips: definitely no helmets, dayglo jerkins etc. Car: usually mid sixties wreck: Morris Traveller, Mini Traveller, or possibly more recent Volvo. In the country, Land Rover with pre-1962 number plate. Trains taken wherever possible.

Fogey religion: high Anglican or pre-Vatican II RC; Church of Scotland. Affects to be a recusant Catholic (ie, from a pre-reformation family, but is in fact the descendant of 1920s converts).

For all your pantomime requirements visit www.pantomimesonline.co.uk
'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Really *GOOD*, Hugh!
You capture that whole 'style that isn't a style' thing very well.

David


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

David - I see you're bursting with new energy after a week in Harrogate!

Hugh - this fogey thread is turning into a 'pantomime'. 
All the characters are lined up here readymade for you - could be a sell-out?


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brideshead_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's in the TV version, is it? I'll watch those episodes again tonight. It still seems out of character for Lady M., but I could be wrong. Sebastian humiliates her repeatedly ("any failure in my children is my failure"), in front of the servants and everyone else. The servants at Brideshead, Wilcox in particular, were her allies in trying to curb Sebastian's drunkenness. We know she spoke to Wilcox about not bringing in the cocktail tray, about how full the decanters were to be (not). Lady M. even says to Charles at one point, "We have no secrets in this house," although that's debatable. Julia says to Charles, "I've grown up with one family skeleton, you know -- Papa. Not to be talked of before the servants, not to be talked of before us when we were children. If Mummy is going to start making a skeleton out of Sebastian, it's too much."


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brideshead_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but Lady Marchmain speaks no such line in the TV version. Here's a summary of what does happen:

Episode 3: Charles visits Brideshead as part of the Christmas holiday at the end of 1923. There is one scene showing Charles and Sebastian having a conversation while dressing for dinner, but we never actually see anyone at the dinner table.

Episode 4: Charles returns to Brideshead during Easter of 1924. One afternoon, Sebastian gets drunk. Charles persuades Sebastian to go to bed, saying that he'll pretend to the family that Sebastian's cold is worse. Sebastian does not appear downstairs until after dinner, when he bursts into the drawing room very drunk to apologize to Charles for his harsh words earlier.

Episode 5: Charles is back at Brideshead for part of the Christmas holiday at the end of 1924; Sebastian and Mr. Samgrass have returned from a trip to the Levant. Lady Marchmain has asked Wilcox to restrict the availability of the cocktail tray. Sebastian comes in late to dinner and is given only a tiny amount when he requests whiskey. Conversation is about the recent trip to the Levant and the hunt scheduled for the next day. Just prior to the hunt, Charles gives Sebastian money, which he spends drinking in a pub. By dinner, Sebastian is reeling drunk. He babbles incoherently during the meal in front of the family, the guests (Charles, Mr. Samgrass, and Rex Mottram), and the servants. Lady Marchmain sits silently and stoically. As she leaves the table, she utters her only line in this scene: "Don't sit too long, Bridey."


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Just had a phone call from my brother in which he pronounced the word 'astronaught' as 'Arse-tro-norrt' (Sorry Intrepid)
Very Fogey! 

David


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

David - how bushy can one allow ones fogey eyebrows to get before looking embarrassing? I once made the fatal error of trimming with the beard trimmer and now they grow even faster! I believe you have this problem also! [:I]










"Anyone who works is a fool. I don't work - I merely inflict myself upon the public" - _Robert Morley_


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> Just had a phone call from my brother in which he pronounced the word 'astronaught' as 'Arse-tro-norrt' (Sorry Intrepid)
> Very Fogey!
> ...


Hee-larious.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Fogey semi-formal, evening: old dinner jacket, inherited or from charity shop. Frayed bow tie knotted badly, partly from laziness and partly to prove it's not a clip on. Old velvet smoking jacket for less formal occasions. 

Fogey semi formal, day. Very old, possibly demob or Utility Mark/Wartime Economy Standard grey 3 piece 3sb suit. Frayed white or striped shirt, plain tie. Battered trilby hat. Covert coat or ancient Chesterfield or similar, or stained rubber mackintosh. Shoes probably brogues or bluchers. Long college scarf, faded and a bit stained. 

Fogey casual: ancient Harris tweed 3sb sports jacket, or possibly corduroy, with taped cuffs and patched elbows, thick sweater of the type worn by Scott's expedition, or possibly army surplus No2 dress pullover. Tattershal shirt and plain woolen tie. Shapeless pleated flannel or corduroy trousers. Old brown brogues, possibly pebbledashed (no scatological pun intended, unless perhaps the fogey has been using a French public lavatory)

Hugh, this is exactly like Rumpole (as played by Leo McKern)! 

Does a mauve nose count as a Fogey attribute?


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## Chris H (Oct 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> 
> Does a mauve nose count as a Fogey attribute?




Like this ? 
https://www.imdb.com/gallery/mptv/1104/0815_0403.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Fields, W.C.&seq=22


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Perfect. I've got a nascent one myself.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> David - how bushy can one allow ones fogey eyebrows to get before looking embarrassing? I once made the fatal error of trimming with the beard trimmer and now they grow even faster! I believe you have this problem also! [:I]
> 
> ...


Where did you get that photo of me as a young man?
Why are you stalking me?


David

It is true though, I _do_ have exceeeeedingly good eyebrows!


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

...an old boy like me seems to be sprouting everywhere except the scalp these days, so what maintenance do you suggest? Perhaps it's best to leave it to the barber, though. I recommend a good old-fashioned fogey place on Moorgate - Flittner - which goes the extra mile by offering in hushed tones _"Do you require anything for the weekend, Sir?" _ [8)]


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> ...an old boy like me seems to be sprouting everywhere except the scalp these days, so what maintenance do you suggest? Perhaps it's best to leave it to the barber, though. I recommend a good old-fashioned fogey place on Moorgate - Flittner - which goes the extra mile by offering in hushed tones _"Do you require anything for the weekend, Sir?" _ [8)]


This being the Fogey thread let me give you a Fogey answer -

What's the matter with you?
Trimming and tweaking at yourself like a poodle.
Be a man for God's sake!
Courage tastes of blood.
Stand up straight.
Admire the world.
Relish the love of a gentle woman.
Trust in the Lord.

David


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Just for Harris, here's some Yale professors and students (date unknown).


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm glad to find a place I can call home, even if I am a 'damn colonial'.

My hairdresser spends more time trimming eyebrows and ears than head hair, but I have to do nostrils (when I remember, or when they get in my tea). I don't have an overly red nose, but it does have good pores which I believe is an acceptable alternative.

I had a bad childhood experience with cordroys and skivvies, so I don't do either but I can check most other things on the list. All my shoes have holes in them (brogues) and my wife teases me about getting brogued hats and underwear.

Are wives fogey? There's nothing more fogey then a 60 year old bachelor! And a certain degree of vagueness is desirable too. I think we have neglected the life blood of the fogey: sherry, port, whiskey.

To add to your charming stories, when Dad stepped up to make his first modern stereo purchase a couple of years ago, he was amazed by all the mod-cons. Just to be sure he had what he wanted (fogeys are very careful) he asked if the stereo would automatically play both sides of a CD or if he had to turn it over by hand.

Favourite shoes: ancient ox-blood derby wingtips with dent in one toe
Favourite trousers: sort of stoney-coloured drill trousers
Favourite shirt: faded light blue tattersall
Favourite jacket: brown houndstooth inherited from grandfather
Favourite hat: olivey-green corduroy flat cap
Jewellery: rose gold
Razer: old gillette with Wilkinson Sword blades

I admit the jewellery is an excess, but it was mainly inherited. Oh, and I have a weakness for my silver-handled shoe horn that was a wedding present to my great-grandfather. It makes putting on shoes a pleasure.

One more thing: I type with two fingers (one index, one middle) but neccesity means I have had to get rather fast rather than the more fogey method of peering at the keyboard and searching for keys. I steadfastly refuse to learn to do all-finger typing.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

Welcome!
We're all brothers here!


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## Tiff_Bradley (Dec 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> I'm glad to find a place I can call home, even if I am a 'damn colonial'.
> All my shoes have holes in them (brogues) and my wife teases me about getting brogued hats and underwear.


Welcome Doug,

It's good to have a 'damn colonial' aboard.

BTW with care and patience you can achieve natural brogueing of the underpants over a period of time.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Doug - music to my _'bushy'_ ears! Wonderful life in NZ I'm told, where people are polite and considerate, but you have all that wonderful space unlike here where everyone jostles for a square inch to stand on! My best _fogey_ friends have just bought a plot of land there to build a house on to escape the UK winters - have to put you in touch! BTW never ask the barber to do nostrils - it's considered an gross insult! Ears and brows are OK, but never nostrils!


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Vman, I have to tell: I was at my aunt and uncle's in Napier (Art Deco capital of the world) and took in four prints she had on the wall. I said "Are those by Jack Vettriano?" and she told me a story about how they were sent to her by my other aunt when she was in the UK a few years ago. The second aunt also lives in Napier and helps out with the Deco guided walks, and laughs that the same prints are now widely available throughout Napier. 

A couple of months ago I popped into a large antique shop there and was struck by a comprehensive 'exhibition' of 'Jack Vettrianos' painted by London art students. They weren't bad but not a patch on the real deal, I'm guessing. I thought you'd like to know. "Imitation is ..."


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

What I like about fogeyism is that there are degrees of the condition, one doesn't have to embrace it wholeheartedly as a 'look' - in fact the 'fogey' or 'Brideshead look' was a bit of an 80s aberration because 'looks' are of no concern to the true fogey.

For example I have a friend in the midlands who has many fogey tendencies of which he is, I am pretty certain, completely un self-conscious - he drives a 22 year old rusting British car, wears hand-me-down tweed jackets, watches old films in art cinemas and only listens to records bought from charity shops. Yet he would scoff at any suggestion that he is a 'fogey' and certainly doesn't have a 'look'.

For all your pantomime requirements visit www.pantomimesonline.co.uk
'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

I agree HM. I think fogeyism is a state of being which is seperate from one's style. For example, my clothing style, I think, is NZ country, which is similar to UK country. However, if pressed I am beginning to admit to a certain fogeyness; I like my furniture old and preferably inherited, I like meat and three veg, enjoy lying on the couch in winter with a good book and a fine port, and don't give a damn about owning a flash car. Now it is undeniable that fogeyness impacts on sartorial style, such that my favourite shoes are well beaten-up brogues, I prefer well worn shirts and my hats aren't hats until the shine has been kicked off them. My sartorial awakening, together with AAAC influences, has led to me having some dandy impulses (though I'd never admit it) but having the fogey in me to take the sharpness off a new oufit makes it sit better in my mind. Given the choice of being labelled 'dandy' or 'fogey' I would happily take the latter.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

From PC&C:

https://imageshack.us

Product Code: 1873
Wool Dressing Gown-Green. 
Green with red piping. A perfect old-fashioned dressing gown. Ideal for weekends away when the temperature of the house and the proximity to the bathroom is uncertain! 100% wool. Dry clean only.

This reminds me of a film I once saw that was set in an English "public school" where all the boys in the dormitory wore heavy green tartan dressing gowns with piping, owing to the cold.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> From PC&C:
> 
> ...


You wouldn't be thinking of 'Another Country' would you Rich?
A film with some lovely details.

David


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that's it! Thanks RS - you embolden me to order the DVD right away.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> you embolden me to order the DVD right away.


Curses - only available in Region 1, apparently.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Try video?
If you kept the old technology.

David


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Found it on Amazon! Thanks RS.


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## Hanseat (Nov 20, 2004)

Being available only in Region 1 shouldn'd prevent you from ordering. Especially on the computer it is very easy to 'unlock' your DVD drive. 
There are plenty of programs that could do that for you. If you tell me what your computers DVD-drive's make is I'll see what I can do.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hanseat_
> 
> Being available only in Region 1 shouldn'd prevent you from ordering. Especially on the computer it is very easy to 'unlock' your DVD drive.
> There are plenty of programs that could do that for you. If you tell me what your computers DVD-drive's make is I'll see what I can do.


Is that so? I've got Windows Media Player 10, French version.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So glad.
I know no end of trivia about the film, the play, and its author!
I hope you enjoy it.
It's bitter-sweet and although it's based on Eton in the 20s (filmed in Oxford because Eton would have nothing to do with it!), I can tell you from my own schooldays at a lesser establishment and from those of my friends also that the attitudes depicted in it are true and continued to be true in England up to around the end of the 70s at least.

David


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

David and Rich - you surely must like Chariots of Fire also?


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> David and Rich - you surely must like Chariots of Fire also?


Never seen it actually - you recommend?


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think I saw it when it first came out - I remember the line in the Moscow interview about "what you miss most" ("the cricket") with the boys' choir in the background - at least that's how I remember it. All very English. I'd already read a lot about Philby and Co. I've always meant to read his own account _My Silent War_.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> David and Rich - you surely must like Chariots of Fire also?


And then there's 'A Month in the Country' too.
All these films are called 'White Flannel' - a big part of what was going on in the 80s.
The White Flannel look was even a rent-boy fashion briefly!

D.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Do you think period films spark off mainstream clothing 'fashion' styles? I wonder if films like The Great Gatsby in 1974 were an influence on the seventies revival of the twenties and thirties - cream oxford bags, wide stripey ties, brown and white spectator shoes etc - in fact Biba went all thirties at this time, which they endorsed by moving into the magnificent art deco Derry and Toms store. The 'white flannel' films of the early eighties also had an effect on menswear and was embraced by Margaret Howell with her white cotton baggy look.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> Do you think period films spark off mainstream clothing 'fashion' styles? I wonder if films like The Great Gatsby in 1974 were an influence on the seventies revival of the twenties and thirties - cream oxford bags, wide stripey ties, brown and white spectator shoes etc - in fact Biba went all thirties at this time, which they endorsed by moving into the magnificent art deco Derry and Toms store. The 'white flannel' films of the early eighties also had an effect on menswear and was embraced by Margaret Howell with her white cotton baggy look.


Absolutely!
Other films had less direct, but still potent, impact too - 
*Cabaret*.
*Bonnie & Clyde*.

I'm sure there's quite a list.

D.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Yes, I had forgotten about Bonnie and Clyde. Following that film in 1967 there was an instant interest in art deco as a collectible style and the first ever book on the subject was written by Bevis Hillier, followed by a magnificent exhibition in 1971 at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts. This is when I first became aware of art deco while at art college, so all my graphic projects had modernist type and stepped corners!
Don't I ramble on...?


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> Yes, I had forgotten about Bonnie and Clyde. Following that film in 1967 there was an instant interest in art deco as a collectible style and the first ever book on the subject was written by Bevis Hillier, followed by a magnificent exhibition in 1971 at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts. This is when I first became aware of art deco while at art college, so all my graphic projects had modernist type and stepped corners!
> Don't I ramble on...?


Don't worry...
We understand


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Decided to watch Chariots of Fire again tonight and ...brilliant! But, oh my God I cannot believe it's twenty-five years since I first saw it - half my lifetime! Frightening - seems like yesterday. Worth watching, even just for the period clothing styles. I was clearly born in the wrong era, but dream on...


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

David - I've several big comfortable-fit chinos - two pairs of Land's End in cream, one pair 
in black and the khaki and olive/grey pair shown here with my winter country ensemble, which is 
very *'Far from the madding crowd' *inspired, would you not agree? _(oh, gorgeous Julie Christie...)_:










Any comments? Did I hear you snout "PLEATS"? - _I know, I know!_ The tweed short coat, 
you will be pleased to hear, is from PCC and I have a couple of caps to go with it, 
but the tattersall shirt is Lewin's. Fit for the shires, what?

Glass of port, old boy, to round off the Easter weekend?


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Some old 'fogeys', all photographed in November 1950. Professor Hugh Trevor-Roper, Fellow of Christ Church.



Professor A. L. Rouse, Fellow of All Souls College.



C. S. Lewis.



...and finally (my favourite), the Warden of All Souls College, straight from the corridors of Gormenghast.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> David - I've several big comfortable-fit chinos - two pairs of Land's End in cream, one pair
> in black and the khaki and olive/grey pair shown here with my winter country ensemble, which is
> ...


Very 'County', _slightly_ 'Euro', but not too much.
You'd still get a good table in Harry Hare's dressed like that!

D.


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## Russell Street (Nov 28, 2004)

*Doctor D.* - 
Mervyn Peake & Mave & the family all out on Sark with the Street family!
I've no end of family stories about how lovely M.P. was.
Troubled at times, but lovely. God rest his soul.

D.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Russell Street_
> 
> I've no end of family stories about how lovely M.P. was. Troubled at times, but lovely. God rest his soul.


Too sensitive a man for this grim world.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

This man needs no introduction.


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## tweedchap (Sep 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> From PC&C:
> 
> ...


Better hurry--they're discontinuing this!


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jstaylor_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What! Discontinuing! - splutter, gasp... Thanks for the tip-off.


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## tweedchap (Sep 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes indeed! They're already out of 46-48.... [V]


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jstaylor_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They've still got 42-44... GBP 115... Hmm...


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

I would kill for Trevor-Roper's jacket, but the tie is a little 'flamboyant' for 1950 - or was he 'flamboyant' himself perchance?

I had forgotten about the 'white flannel' look. It occurred to me that this was the influential 'look' of my teens as I came of age in the 1980s. I wonder if anyone still wears this as a 'look' (as opposed to a badge of faith, as we do on this forum) in the same way that one still occasionally sees old hippies, bikers etc wearing the styles of their teens despite being in their 50s or 60s.

Some white flannel/fogey films/series to watch:

Chariots of Fire
Another Country
Heat and Dust
A Room With A View
The Wings of The Dove
Brideshead Revisited
The Far Pavilions
A Passage to India
The Jewel in the Crown
Shadowlands
Maurice
A Piece of Cake (mini-series about the RAF)
The Camomile Lawn
Anglo-Saxon Attitudes
Dance With A Stranger
Hope and Glory
A Month In The Country
The Remains of the Day
Gosford Park
The Shooting Party

For all your pantomime requirements visit www.pantomimesonline.co.uk
'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

During my school days, on Sundays we wore whites: white shorts, white polo shirt and white cricket jersey with sandals. Those having school colours wore a cricket jersey with colours knitted into the v-neck.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Am I correct in assuming that the white flannel look would be more dandy than fogey?


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that the white flannel look would be more dandy than fogey?


You would be incorrect to assume that with certainty. The 'white flannel' look is for 'sporting' fogeys who play cricket and I doubt that dandies would play cricket, if play all. Surely a dandy would be more concerned about looking the part so wouldn't be much use in the game!


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Most fogey shoes? Brand name and description please! This is fun!


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Fogey role-models:


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Not otherwise Fogey, except that Fogeys love old albumen photographs:

Eton v Haverford Cricket match, 1896.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> Most fogey shoes? Brand name and description please! This is fun!


Beat-up pre-Prada Church's brown cap-toe derby brogues for country, beat-up pre-Prada Church's black plain Oxford cap-toe for town. Both have to be substantial double-soled models, say the Chelmsford and Lancaster, respectively. Beat-up but well polished, of course.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Fogey trapped in 21-year old's body:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ma...tis25.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/25/ixhome.html


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## HenryBemis (Jan 23, 2006)

Fogey is, well old WASP and old Preppy (Prep with a capital P) to a "t". How refreshing to know I am a 30 something/generation X Fogey. The apple doesn't fall far from the continental tree.


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## jasonpraxis (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> Fogey trapped in 21-year old's body:
> <snip>


Great article. Thanks for the link!


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

I find myself with little to say on this subject, others having said it all! I have found, however, that fogeys I have known fall into two sartorial camps, those who wear "town" and those who wear "country". Amongst the former it is even possible to find fogeys who _don't like tweed_, shocking as I know this must be to all right-thinking people. This latter is the territory of the three-piece suit, morning coat and frock coat only fogey, interesting to visit but perhaps not to live! I can second Hugh's recommendation of the Young Fogey Handbook - an excellent resource if you can get it. I am shocked that no-one has yet mentioned the use of a plaited leather fob in place of a watch chain when wearing the watch in the top pocket - or is that just me?


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

How about a plain leather fob strap, like this one that was my grandfather's?


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## Tom Bell-Drier (Mar 1, 2006)

Re: Otis Ferry, this man is a hero,to all of us who mourn the loss of hunting with hounds due to our labour government`s meddling to suit the vociferous minority.
Despite or as a result of his upbringing he upholds the once great values of this country that the labour government are trying to eradicate.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> How about a plain leather fob strap, like this one that was my grandfather's?


I prefer plaited but plain is equally good!


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Could someone please post some observations from the Young Fogey Handbook, if they own a copy. For those of us less fortunate members across the pond...Thanks.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

I must say, well done on the Haverford v. Eton Pic JLPWCXIII. We may have dropped our football team in the 70s, but the Haverford XI still lives on. You can still see it played there on Saturdays and Sudays in the fall and spring, and they wear traditional whites. If my memory serves me correctly, that is the pitch at Haverford.

Southeastern Pennsylvania Trad Authority


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Where is Russell Street?


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

No-one seems to have mentioned Rupert Bear:

https://imageshack.us

(complete with rhyming couplets)


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

> quote:No-one seems to have mentioned Rupert Bear:


For the youngster who is to grow up with Enid Blyton and Arthur Ransome. Is Paddington Bear a more recent equivilent?


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
> What I like about fogeyism is that there are degrees of the condition, one doesn't have to embrace it wholeheartedly as a 'look' - in fact the 'fogey' or 'Brideshead look' was a bit of an 80s aberration because 'looks' are of no concern to the true fogey.
> 
> For example I have a friend in the midlands who has many fogey tendencies of which he is, I am pretty certain, completely un self-conscious - he drives a 22 year old rusting British car, wears hand-me-down tweed jackets, watches old films in art cinemas and only listens to records bought from charity shops. Yet he would scoff at any suggestion that he is a 'fogey' and certainly doesn't have a 'look'.


I agree with Hugh, "fogeyism" is a matter of degree. In fact, it may be more of an attitude than anything else. My wife who is more that just a few years younger than I can say, "Don't be such an old fogey" in response to many things I say or do, but it is never about what I wear or how I look. It's about getting older, not feeling up to a noisy party or an all day family thing. In fact what sets me out as a fogey is that I don't like to go on long drives late at night because I feel tired, and frankly I prefer being home. My wife wants to travel, but I travel a lot for work, and (again) I prefer to be home. This worries her. Her response is,"don't be such an old fogey" to which I have recently replied, "I'm not, I am a happily middle aged fogey!"

Joe


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

A perfect example of fogey, Joe. It is not necessarily crusty. It is not necessarily about clothes. It is about how one chooses to face the madding crowd.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Paddington is much more sophisticated, and something of a rebel. He's got the makings of a post-modern fogey as defined by Trimmer.

It seems that Rupert has been nominated as an "English Icon":

https://www.icons.org.uk/nom/nomina...rtcriterion=alphabeticalTitle&order=ascending

Rupert was published in the Daily Express, the low-brow fogey newspaper. It would be interesting to explore the link between the fogey and the Little Englander.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> Could someone please post some observations from the Young Fogey Handbook, if they own a copy. For those of us less fortunate members across the pond...Thanks.


Mr Shuman, I recently purchased the book. When I read it, if I may somewhat blasphemously parody the late Reverend Wesley,'my heart was strangely warmed' as it fitted in so completely with my own ideas. So pretty much everything I post is taken from the said book, with a few 'extra canonical' musings of my own.

_Ex Fogiat Nulla Salvum Est_(apologies for the schoolboy latin)

For all your pantomime requirements visit www.pantomimesonline.co.uk
'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"I doubt that dandies would play cricket." Hmmm...I seem to recall that Brummell, the archetype of all dandies, was one hell of a cricketer or cricket player or whatever you call it over there!


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Just for Harris, here's some Yale professors and students (date unknown).


Interesting that I can descry only one pocket square in the bunch--the gent in the back row on the viewer's far left.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Okay...rainy day got me thinking....Most Fogey raincoat? Aqua or Burberry or other?


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> Okay...rainy day got me thinking....Most Fogey raincoat? Aqua or Burberry or other?


Cordings have a very fogey model:


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Phew, what a fantastic thread. I have just finished reading it all and, a few oversights excepted (tie clips? signet rings with initials?), it is all hugely impressive.

I've often been tempted to come out from the shadows and stop lurking, but my fogey-ish instincts have always restrained me.

While I can't pretend to be a full-on fogey - I am too young too have been fully indoctrinated, I fear - my roots point toward good fogey potential. Many's the time I've read some style advice dished out on the main forum which no gentleman could ever endorse. Italian tailoring? Button-down shirts? Shunning slip-ons ('loafers') as not to be worn with a suit?

Fiddlesticks.

As for fogeys from literature, surely the classic example is Wodehouse's Lord Emsworth.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Henry_
> 
> Phew, what a fantastic thread. I have just finished reading it all and, a few oversights excepted (tie clips? signet rings with initials?), it is all hugely impressive.
> 
> ...


 Welcome, Henry.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

Welcome Henry.

I myself don't like tie clips, though I have worn them. There's something about them that makes me think of brash '50s men with too much brylcreem - sort of like the car salesman played by Dennis Price in 'The School For Scoundrels'.

For all your pantomime requirements visit www.pantomimesonline.co.uk
'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

> quote:Fiddlesticks.


Brilliant opener. Welcome aboard from one fogey to another.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Thank you all for your kind welcomes.

I thought I'd pitch in with a contribution regarding the social status of the fogey.

While I completely agree that regarding someone as a fogey is, in itself, no indicator of class (in the social sense), it is pretty clear from the discussion here that many of the trademarks of fogey-dom are also inherently upper class.

I was wondering whether this is because being a fogey is a kind of euphemism for being a traditional member of the upper (or upper-middle, for that matter) class - or whether it is the circumstances and luxuries that being a member of such a class offers one.

I for one have no doubt that next to no upper class fogeys would be fogeys if they were born in a Welsh mining town. So, as it is not innate, what is it about being upper class which fosters such eccentricity? I think there are X reasons.

Firstly, there is the security aspect. Being a member of the upper class is - or was - a pretty clear cut thing. One would have no need to prove one's wealth, or status, with vast expenditure. This is how the seemingly paradoxical rich man in tatty clothes scenario arises. Further proof of this view is the emergence of the nouveau riche: the social climbers attempt to camouflage their lack of class (in the traditional sense) by dressing and living well. As such, the old-school aristocrat has both an incentive to prove that he is still top of the tree, and an excuse to flaunt his wealth more. Thus fogeydom has been in decline in recent years.

The second point is a corollary to the first. The exhibit of old clothes, antique furniture, vintage jewelry - it is all a subtle way of showing one's credentials. Not to those of a lower class, but likely to those of a similar social standing to yourself. A kind of aristocratic membership card. It was the emergence of second hand shops and, more recently, internet trading, which has undermined the certainty which one can rely on this card.

Finally, the life of a leisure that the typical aristocrat would lead - toddling about in town or country, with little or nothing to occupy one's body or mind - meant that he was always going to tailor his wardrobe and lifestyle around comfort. In an age before consumerism, comfort was the peak of such a lazy outlook. By all means observe the social norms - indeed, it would be anathema to ignore them - but work within them in a way that maximises ease of living. Perhaps this is the dichotomy between efficiency and eccentricity. I am not sure.

Anyway, I don't pretend that these characteristics are innate to the fogey, merely that they are characteristics of the upper class which create a predisposition to act in a fogey-ish way.

I hope this wasn't too long-winded for you all. Fogeys anything but concise.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Henry_
> 
> Thank you all for your kind welcomes.
> 
> I thought I'd pitch in with a contribution regarding the social status of the fogey.


It does seem that belonging to or feeling a strong attraction to the leisured upper classes (and being able to live like them)is a necessary condition for true fogeydom. However, it may not be a sufficient condition - a certain mindset is also required.

This mindset may itself be a product of an upper-class background, of course, although fogey-like behaviour exists in all walks of life. It could be that fogeyism arises from a conjunction of circumstances and mindset.

This in turn suggests there may be chaps out there who in more favourable circumstances would be hardline fogeys, but who are just boring non-entities. And of course scions of noble families who could have been great fogeys but who unaccountably prefer frivolous playboy pursuits.

There may also be closet fogeys who feel too weak to challenge middle-class social pressures to conform to mainstream "style" and who suffer in silence - _Many a flower is born to blush unseen... _


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Those are some very good points, Henry; however, Rich has advanced it closer to my reckoning.

The point about credentials is thought-provoking, and may explain my fogeyness, although for credentials to be relevant, they must be recognised by someone else. Or do they? Rich's point that a certain mind-set is needed strikes true with me. I am essentially a fogey because that's what I am. In this respect, my credentials are recognised by me, as well as - I'd like to think - my late grandfather and my ancestors who were also, God bless them, fogeys. So maybe it is partly credentials and maybe it is measuring up to one's own standards, goals or ideals.

I also like Henry's comment that the modern age wherein one can purchase second-hand tweed coats and well-worn, antique furniture has led to a blurring of 'old family' membership. However, this has always been the case where successful merchants, for example, have moved into a new area, filled their new house with approprately aged furniture, become armigerous and possibly even bought a title, and then settled into a life of leisure and pipe smoke. The point is that surrounding oneself with fogey paraphenalia can be an outward manifestation of an upwardly-mobile ambition.

For those that think that fogeys are rooted in the past, I believe it is wrong to say that fogeys shun the modern. After all, a bicycle is easier to keep than a horse, but an automobile is warmer than a bicycle. Books are great, but information is so much more readily available on the internet. However, it is the social values and behaviours of the past that the fogey yearns for. Let's face it, the sartorial side of this is why Ask Andy exists at all.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

That's rather what I was driving at: that while there is a strong correlation between fogeydom and the aristocracy, it is wrong to assume that the two are interchangeable.

I consider it to be rather like a predisposition for crime. While it not very politically correct nowadays to suggest that some people have crime 'in their genes' - they are product of the society they live in, and thus it is society that causes them to commit crimes - I believe it is inevitable.

However, it _is_ wrong to assume that this criminal gene is peculiar to poorer people. The tendency to commit crimes goes across the board, but it is the poorer elements of society who have who have the need to indulge this disposition. Similarly, fogeydom is innate in many people, but it is the circumstances of their upbringing which either nurtures or suppresses this instinct.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

I've just come across a website I didn't know, called Brocklehursts of Bakewell (sic). Very fogeyish but also remarkably cheap. I can't make out what market segment it's aiming at. Does anyone know these people?



Ed: Your analogy with the criminal classes is cogent, Henry (I found "cogent" in Roget's Thesaurus - a work only used by fogeys today I expect).


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> I've just come across a website I didn't know, called Brocklehursts of Bakewell (sic). Very fogeyish but also remarkably cheap. I can't make out what market segment it's aiming at. Does anyone know these people?
> 
> https://www.brocklehurstsofbakewell.co.uk/


Thanks Rich, but... _zip fly!_ [V]


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Having refound this poem for the other thread, I thought I'd repost it here, as it's so superb.


Phone for the fish-knives, Norman,
As Cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.

Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.

It's ever so close in the lounge, dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea,
And Howard is out riding on horseback,
So do come and take some with me.

Now here is a fork for your pastries,
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know what I wanted to ask you --
Is trifle suffient for sweet?

Milk and then just as it comes, dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

John Betjeman

- You can be pretty sure that anything he mentions here is unlikely to be fogey-ish! Also, other good fogeys to aspire to: Henry Blofeld, Hugh Montgomery Massingberd.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vettriano man_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes - though there is a pair of quite nice looking plain grey clearance trousers with button flies if you have a 34" waist (not the case for me). Some of the stuff _looks_ quite good (obviously) - the striped lambswool ties, the winceyette pyjamas... Might be junk though.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Another fogey: Nicholas (Fatty) Soames.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Henry_
> 
> Another fogey: Nicholas (Fatty) Soames.


A chum of the late Diana's, if I'm not mistaken. Which would place him into that whole BCBG or whatever crowd.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

> quote:Might be junk though


Too many polycotton shirts for my liking.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Not sure what BCBG means, maybe I'm too young... he's an MP, grandson of Churchill, fat old Etonian, infamous for mocking Italian suits sported by young politicians. Still, fat as he is, he couldn't ever buy OTR...


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

I'm not sure, but I think a distinction ought to be made between the unselfconscious fogey and the deliberate fogey. The true Noblesse Oblige "U" fogey is not selfconsciously fogey. His fogey ways are just natural - in fact "fogey" is a term he wouldn't use - indeed, he might not even be sure of what it meant. Being unselfconscious the true fogey is not a purist - he can often be found in gross breach of the rules (which he doesn't know).

There would be two kinds of "deliberate" fogey - 

(i) chaps who were brought up in a fogey setting and chose to continue that way, despite being transplanted into mainstream society through their careers or interests. They are fully aware that their fogey ways are anachronistic, but choose to keep them, or even flaunt them,

(ii) chaps who are attracted to fogeyism as a reaction against modern slobbishness, tat and silly fashions. These range from the totally self-conscious retro-dandy to the "difficult" fogey who will refuse to drink tea from a mug or write with a "ball-point pen". The latter is liable to be a purist in fogey matters.

There might be a fourth type, the fogey who is constantly trying to shake off or disguise his fogey background, but can't help looking and behaving fogey at all times, even when wearing trainers and tank top. This is close to the mainstream, derisive meaning of "fogey", as an old-fashioned stick-in-the-mud.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Henry_
> 
> Another fogey: Nicholas (Fatty) Soames.


Please don't mention that name around here! Nicholas Soames is one of the most disgusting members of parliament, well known as an embarrassment for thinking he has the right to be overtly sexist. Winston Churchill was a real gentleman and he would be thoroughly ashamed of his grandson.

BCBG is - _'bon chic, bon genre'_ - the French for 'good dress sense, good breeding' which is roughly equivalent to the English 'sloane ranger'.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Henry_
> 
> he's an MP, grandson of Churchill, fat old Etonian, infamous for mocking Italian suits sported by young politicians. Still, fat as he is, he couldn't ever buy OTR...


He was invited to Charles and Camilla's wedding - among the "other guests", i.e. not family, other royals, political leaders or dignitaries. They were:

Rowan Atkinson
Phil Collins
Joanna Lumley
Jools Holland
Kenneth Branagh
Trudie Styler
Richard E. Grant
Anna Valentine
Edward Fox
Jonathan Dimbleby
Nicholas Soames
Robert Harris
Ronald Harwood
Valentino Garavani

Odd bunch.


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## Hugh Morrison (May 24, 2005)

Check these out! A snip at only Â£2.75 and a must for any snuff addicts:

I realise Fatty Soames is a tad offensive to modern parliamentarians, but I think it's good that the House still has a few characters left amid the grey, centrist conformity.

For all your pantomime requirements visit www.pantomimesonline.co.uk
'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Hugh Morrison_
> 
> Check these out! A snip at only Â£2.75 and a must for any snuff addicts:
> 
> I realise Fatty Soames is a tad offensive to modern parliamentarians, but I think it's good that the House still has a few characters left amid the grey, centrist conformity.


I have the set of these hankies - not of superb quality but perfctly serviceable and a good size.

I believe Mr Soames was also the perpetrator of the well known "two gins, John!" joke at the expense of the Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, a former ship's steward (a joke for which I understand he later apologised). I must admit to being quite fond of him for the reasons adduced by Hugh, although I wasn't aware of the side of him Vettriano Man refers to.

Anthony.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Anthony - it was reported in the Daily Telegraph that Soames had been sledging female Labour MPs in the Commons, apparently, making disparaging jokes about them. The boot-faced former Lib Dem MP Jackie Ballard made an official complaint, saying that Soames ought to be sacked for being sexist.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Vettriano Man, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there.

Winston Churchill was many things, but hardly a gentleman as far as women were concerned. Books are filled with quotations of him being rude to women. Nicholas Soames is made from a similar mould. He merely makes jokes which would have passed in the House 50 years ago at inopportune moments. Being sexist is hardly a unique trait among public school educated men of a certain age.

edit: not that I'm condoning his behaviour - I'm merely observing that his behaviour is hardly unique! Perhaps his crime is that he is as rude as his grandfather, without the wit...


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Henry_
> 
> Vettriano Man, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there.
> 
> ...


Interesting to learn this, Henry, thanks. Obviously a misconception on my part after hearing Thatcher as an all-time feminist icon constantly praising Churchill, together with views of him by the population at large - but then I suppose equality as such was still in it's infancy during his lifetime which was long before the feminists had really proved and established their point.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

I think I note a hint of sarcasm in your reply! Honestly, I don't mean to cause any offence - I just think Churchill's wit (and other achievements) combined with the era he lived in meant his antics wererather better received than his portly grandson.

I still thinks he's a fogey though, if not a very polite one!

Edit: wikipedia even uses 'fogeyish' in his entry!


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Henry_
> 
> I think I note a hint of sarcasm in your reply! Honestly, I don't mean to cause any offence - I just think Churchill's wit (and other achievements) combined with the era he lived in meant his antics wererather better received than his portly grandson.
> 
> ...


Let me leap to VM's defence here - I've never known him to be sarcastic - well, not on the board, anyway.

Churchill was certainly a man's man (robust humour, high alcohol intake, scruffiness, interest in military matters, not a womaniser, etc.).


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

No I wasn't offended at all, I just didn't want to make a fool of myself by taking the comment at face value if wasn't intended that way! Hope no harm done.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

At least he's better dressed than most MPs (though admittedly not such a difficult thing to do).


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Rather well dressed I think - certainly he's a Savile Row man. He's good test case for the guy - was it the head of Gieves? - who said they could dress anyone, including Humpty Dumpty!


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*I am not sure ...*

I will be able to get the message across but ... the term fogey was created to describe a certain mental/psychological outlook (I am not sure if this is true, but it has a certain negative feel to it - I mean the word itself).

The whole clothes/external traits of this are probably secondary, come as a consequence to the outlook and do not matter for the non-fogey population at large etc.

The whole aristocracy mentality is also something different - one must be polite/ be a real gentlemen to people who surround you, including women (not necessary be a womanizer and NOT that everybody else should NOT be polite). Wearing old clothes that look good/ feel comfortable is a normal male thing (in certain places bordering with "old money" approach to saving things - or I would say a general Western Europe/US approach). But I think that one must always polish shoes (no matter how old they are) and clean his teeth.

But a true aristocrat (or as one may say in this modern age - an aristocrat of spirit) must have that little extra inside, be a sportsman old-boy - be a racer, love horses, sail in a proper boat etc. You know, be adventurous &#8230; and just grumble about in his old morning coat.

P.S. from what I understand, a fogey does not always like sport.

Andrey


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Khnelben,
I agree with you about polishing the shoes, but not necessarily about the teeth.

There is an observation by some English wags, I forget the original source, about Americans, as to how we seem to think that if we were in England we would be considered as belonging to the upper reaches of the upper middle-class, with the privileges and good taste that would entail. The overwhelming sense is that we are being pretentious. 
Fortunately, in America we can shop wherever we can afford and dress accordingly. Tally ho!


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## Old Brompton (Jan 15, 2006)

Khnelben said:


> P.S. from what I understand, a fogey does not always like sport.
> 
> Andrey


It is a misunderstanding, I think, to assume YFs do not like sport. Surely rowing, croquet, fly-fishing, and claret-drinking (in heroic quantities) qualify as sport...?! :icon_smile_wink:


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Old Brompton said:


> It is a misunderstanding, I think, to assume YFs do not like sport. Surely rowing, croquet, fly-fishing, and claret-drinking (in heroic quantities) qualify as sport...?! :icon_smile_wink:


Rather, old man.


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