# Revived Bill's Khakis?



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Has anyone bought any of the Original Twills from the "resurrected" version of Bill's Khakis? I get e-mails from them almost daily but no print catalog to date. Anyway, how do they compare in fit and quality with the original Original Twills?


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## Fancia (Jun 2, 2014)

Sadly, there is no valid comparison. The new Bill's are made in Bangladesh by different personnel using fabric sourced from a different vendor. The fabric weight, the zipper, the inner linings, the pocket fabric and size, the buttons and the amount of excess material on the interior of the leg and seat seams all have been "valued engineered." The twill is almost equivalent to the 5 pockets/Parker Pants construction now with the inseam being about the only alteration you can make for fit. If you have an Opps Store (catalog returns and overstock retailer) in your area, you can find any number of pre-hemmed Bill's there for around $89. Even at that price, they still aren't a viable option in my opinion.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

That's a shame. Luckily I bought heavily during the good years. Barring massive weight changes in either direction, I don't think I need to buy chinos for the next two decades.

(Doesn't mean I won't.)


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Fancia said:


> Sadly, there is no valid comparison. The new Bill's are made in Bangladesh by different personnel using fabric sourced from a different vendor. The fabric weight, the zipper, the inner linings, the pocket fabric and size, the buttons and the amount of excess material on the interior of the leg and seat seams all have been "valued engineered." The twill is almost equivalent to the 5 pockets/Parker Pants construction now with the inseam being about the only alteration you can make for fit. If you have an Opps Store (catalog returns and overstock retailer) in your area, you can find any number of pre-hemmed Bill's there for around $89. Even at that price, they still aren't a viable option in my opinion.


I've seen the exact pants you describe at my local Marshall's. However, the offering on their website appears to be MiUSA, and one of their previous wholesale customers told me last week that "Bills is back", and once again producing domestically and to the old standards.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

I bought a slug of them for my girlfriend's father and myself when they had their long blowout sale. At that time - buying the pants for 75% off (or there about) - I knew I would never pay full price again and doubted they would get too many others to do so.

It's one thing to have a select sale for a limited time, but with their never ending and deeply discounted sale, they destroyed the brand's value as no one wants to - or feels they should - now pay full price. 

Hence, bringing back an inferior product under the old name might have been their only marketing move left, but that doesn't mean any of us have to go for it. 

That was a going-out-of-business sale in all but name and whatever "Bill's Khakis" is now is simply the old "name" attached to a new company. 

I've fully moved on. I don't need any khakis right now, but have to believe someone will be making a credible pair when I do. 

Fair Isle ties / pin collar shirts / etc. might be too niche trad to always be made, but Americans still buy enough chinos to support a few good khaki brands.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

For that matter, has anyone here tried Frank's Pants? At the time the original Bill's was liquidating, they were touted as a successor to Bill's. From what I can see, they are only being offered in a couple of colors, and only with a "regular" rise. As a fan of the old Bill's M1 fit, the absence of a high-rise, comfort-fit version limits their appeal to me.


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

I got a pair of the new Bill's for Christmas - a relative found them at TJ Maxx. They're ok but nothing at all like the originals.


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## Corcovado (Nov 24, 2007)

The old Bills left me holding the bag on an unfilled order. Unless the new company wants to honor my old purchase I do not intend to patronize them. Having learned from the post above that their new product is second rate, I don't see much of a future between Bills and me.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Corcovado said:


> The old Bills left me holding the bag on an unfilled order. Unless the new company wants to honor my old purchase I do not intend to patronize them. Having learned from the post above that their new product is second rate, I don't see much of a future between Bills and me.


This position seems reasonable and proper to me. I bought Bills during the good years directly from the company and also on frequent visits to the STP mothership in Cheyenne. When the company began to self-destruct, I bought a pair of khakis made in Bangladesh or Antarctica - wherever. The only thing Bills about them was the name. Now the company claims to have returned to quality. To my thinking, that means quality behavior as well as quality products. To regain my business and trust, they would have to take ownership of all past dubious actions and bad garments, do something to make restitution to those who were left hanging, and generally act at a level they claim their products have once again achieved. I doubt they will do that, but I have a lifetime supply and can afford to be idealistic.


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

Ordered and paid for some, never got the pants or a refund.

In my opinion, people who have a sense of values should avoid them.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
What you say, richard warren, makes sense, but as I sit here wearing an older pair of my Bill's Anniversary Twills, I sure wish I could find a vendor offering for sale pairs of Chinos that are the equal of what I have on!


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> What you say, richard warren, makes sense, but as I sit here wearing an older pair of my Bill's Anniversary Twills, I sure wish I could find a vendor offering for sale pairs of Chinos that are the equal of what I have on!


I bought a couple of pairs of Bill's Army Cramerton Twills during the fire sale. I'm 52 and see no chance that I wear these out before I die.

The material is bullet proof but - now after many washes - is softening up nicely without appearing to loose any of its Kevlar-like durability.

It's a shame they won't be making that quality again, but I stand by my earlier post, somebody will, if not today, then soon, as there is a market for well-made khakis.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

richard warren said:


> Ordered and paid for some, never got the pants or a refund.
> 
> In my opinion, people who have a sense of values should avoid them.


Have you called them recently? I had an outstanding order for a sweater when the firesale was underway. They honored the order, even though it took about six months to restock under the new regime. And they had not debited my credit card until the the purchase was completed.


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## jbeck6 (Jul 6, 2015)

Fading Fast said:


> I bought a slug of them for my girlfriend's father and myself when they had their long blowout sale. At that time - buying the pants for 75% off (or there about) - I knew I would never pay full price again and doubted they would get too many others to do so.
> 
> It's one thing to have a select sale for a limited time, but with their never ending and deeply discounted sale, they destroyed the brand's value as no one wants to - or feels they should - now pay full price.


This is so very true. I adore the bill's khaki's I bought during that sale and I fully believe that it is better to pay $100 for one thing you like rather than $25 for something you don't, but mentally I just can't get over paying $145 for a pair of pants when last year I bought 4 of them for less than $25 a piece! I do go on every now and then to just check and see if they have them for $30 with a $25 gift card for order again...

It is exactly what happened with J Crew. Now that they have 50% off sales every few months and everything ends up in the "sale" section within 6 months, nobody in their right mind bothers to buy anything anywhere near full price. This has cut away almost all of their profit and they are almost certainly going to have to go to bankruptcy.


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## Corcovado (Nov 24, 2007)

I wonder if some company that makes selvedge denim jeans could be induced to pick up the torch of vintage style khakis? Perhaps one of the Japanese brands for example, since the traditional Ivy look is appreciated in Japan.


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## swils8610 (Mar 12, 2016)

I really hope they go back to made in the USA. Really loved the fit of my Bills and the chamois cloth was great in the summer months. 


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## Mr.Inappropriate (Nov 21, 2016)

Corcovado said:


> I wonder if some company that makes selvedge denim jeans could be induced to pick up the torch of vintage style khakis? Perhaps one of the Japanese brands for example, since the traditional Ivy look is appreciated in Japan.


Gustin makes selvedge chinos. But they have a button fly.


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## meanoldmanning (Jan 10, 2015)

Mr.Inappropriate said:


> Gustin makes selvedge chinos. But they have a button fly.


And are quite slim. And have a low-ish rise.

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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Fancia said:


> Sadly, there is no valid comparison. The new Bill's are made in Bangladesh by different personnel using fabric sourced from a different vendor. The fabric weight, the zipper, the inner linings, the pocket fabric and size, the buttons and the amount of excess material on the interior of the leg and seat seams all have been "valued engineered." The twill is almost equivalent to the 5 pockets/Parker Pants construction now with the inseam being about the only alteration you can make for fit. If you have an Opps Store (catalog returns and overstock retailer) in your area, you can find any number of pre-hemmed Bill's there for around $89. Even at that price, they still aren't a viable option in my opinion.


Well, this very day I got an e-mail ad from Bill's claiming that their Original Twills are "100% American made." Is this, then, fraudulent? If so, aren't there penalties for this sort of misrepresentation?


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> Well, this very day I got an e-mail ad from Bill's claiming that their Original Twills are "100% American made." Is this, then, fraudulent? If so, aren't there penalties for this sort of misrepresentation?


Good point. Do you know an attorney who might take this case on?


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> Well, this very day I got an e-mail ad from Bill's claiming that their Original Twills are "100% American made." Is this, then, fraudulent? If so, aren't there penalties for this sort of misrepresentation?


Did you not read my post (#4), or did you discount its validity for some reason?


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

FLMike said:


> Did you not read my post (#4), or did you discount its validity for some reason?


I think a class action suit is appropriate. Maybe we can get Southwick to take up the cause?


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## Califax (Jul 10, 2015)

They assured me in email that the pants are the 1. same fabrics, 2. same fit, and that they are 3. made in America.


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## DownSouth (Jun 30, 2005)

The new, and best alternative to Bill's I have found is All American Khaki's. Identical in almost every way to original Bill's. Made in Thomson, GA. 
www.allamericankhaakis.com


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## LIer (Jul 15, 2016)

DownSouth said:


> The new, and best alternative to Bill's I have found is All American Khaki's. Identical in almost every way to original Bill's. Made in Thomson, GA.
> www.allamericankhaakis.com


DownSouth, there is a typo in your link above. Try this:

www.allamericankhakis.com


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

FLMike said:


> Did you not read my post (#4), or did you discount its validity for some reason?


Obviously, factual validity should be no impairment to class action lawsuits! This is America!!


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## DownSouth (Jun 30, 2005)

Thanks. Fat fingers!!


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

You are all living in the past. Has anyone actually bought a pair of Bills since the new regime took over? How do the new Bills compare to the beloved old Bills?


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

meanoldmanning said:


> And are quite slim. And have a low-ish rise.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Going by given measurements, about like BB Clark (slim, but still popular around here).

I consider the button fly a plus. It drapes more naturally while sitting, instead of folding up into a tent.


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## meanoldmanning (Jan 10, 2015)

Himself said:


> Going by given measurements, about like BB Clark (slim, but still popular around here).
> 
> I consider the button fly a plus. It drapes more naturally while sitting, instead of folding up into a tent.


I'm ambivalent about the button fly. Have you tried them on though or just going by the given measurements? I've got a pair, and will probably buy more but I definitely would not want them any more slim. Definitely hang them to dry.

A bit more rise would be a plus.

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## frankmartin (Mar 4, 2014)

ROI said:


> You are all living in the past. Has anyone actually bought a pair of Bills since the new regime took over? How do the new Bills compare to the beloved old Bills?


The new made in the USA Bills Khakis are the same as they ever were. They are the same.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

meanoldmanning said:


> I'm ambivalent about the button fly. Have you tried them on though or just going by the given measurements? I've got a pair, and will probably buy more but I definitely would not want them any more slim. Definitely hang them to dry.
> 
> A bit more rise would be a plus.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Just the measurements. I too would be concerned about shrinkage. The Clarks are as slim as I can go. I'd like an inch more rise as well, but they're OK.

I don't remember if Gustin had a split waistband. BB Clark would fit me better sized up and then taken in, and I would probably buy Gustin that way.

Back to Bills -- I wore them for over 20 years but recently -- especially as a dedicated bike commuter -- I don't like all that extra fabric. Their M3 fit is not much slimmer, just shorter rise. So I'm off Bills for now. I wasn't wearing mine, so I unloaded them all.


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## meanoldmanning (Jan 10, 2015)

Himself said:


> Just the measurements. I too would be concerned about shrinkage. The Clarks are as slim as I can go. I'd like an inch more rise as well, but they're OK.
> 
> I don't remember if Gustin had a split waistband. BB Clark would fit me better sized up and then taken in, and I would probably buy Gustin that way.
> 
> Back to Bills -- I wore them for over 20 years but recently -- especially as a dedicated bike commuter -- I don't like all that extra fabric. Their M3 fit is not much slimmer, just shorter rise. So I'm off Bills for now. I wasn't wearing mine, so I unloaded them all.


They are definitely worth a look then. No split waist unfortunately, but so far I'm ok with a stock size. Quality of construction is very good on the pair I have, better than Bills for sure. I have to be careful with slimmer cuts as I'm 6'5" and don't want to appear to have bird legs. Maybe wait until they do a grab bag sale so you can get a pair more cheaply. You don't get to pick color/fabric, but they are usually several dollars off.

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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

frankmartin said:


> The new made in the USA Bills Khakis are the same as they ever were. They are the same.


Thank you. That's exactly the information I was looking for.


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## Dcr5468 (Jul 11, 2015)

There are still a few old stock pairs floating around at small stores, I just picked up a pair yesterday marked down to $59


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

This information is a month old, but anyway: NEJ Inc., which had been managing Bills Khakis since December 2015, is now the sole owner of Bills Khakis as of last month. NEJ bought the company from private equity firm Source Capital.

According to NEJ, the products will continue to be made in the USA.

Source Capital didn't hold onto Bills for very long, did it?

The matter is academic to me; I stocked up on a lifetime supply of khakis from Bills a bit more than a year ago, when Bills and STP were practically giving away the products.


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## 89826 (Jun 22, 2016)

It wouldn't be very surprising if Bill Thomas joined the new owners. The jackasses are out of the picture.

We know Source Capital to be jackasses because in the short time they controlled the firm, clothes were being made in Bangladesh and the like.

I take some pleasure in knowing that Source probably lost lots of money. Unfortunately, Thomas probably did too; and people lost their jobs.

Edit: I just looked at NEJ'S website. The firm liquidates excess inventory. It doesn't sound like a long-term operator and owner to me.


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

I believe that I have a lifetime supply of the old Bills. However, JIC, I look forward to hearing more about how Bill's quality shapes up under the new management. In the mean time, I think I'll try a pair of the All American the next time that I visit Atlanta. My old favorite men's store, H. Stockton carries them now and they sell quality men's wear, so...

It's always a shame when a grand old name is taken over by new management and cheapened in the name of profit. I remember when Palm Beach and Botony 500 were excellent brands.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

I bought a Bills shirt size XL and it was skin tight. LL Bean for me. perfect fit


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

89826 said:


> It wouldn't be very surprising if Bill Thomas joined the new owners. The jackasses are out of the picture.
> 
> We know Source Capital to be jackasses because in the short time they controlled the firm, clothes were being made in Bangladesh and the like.
> 
> ...


It strikes me as odd that Bill Thomas is framed as the potential savior of the company and that the financial management company who came to his 'personal' rescue is characterized as "the jackasses." Should one look at the situation in a more revealing light, Bill Thomas made a series of bad business decisions, literally running his company into ruin and Source Capital only entered the picture to make what good of a bad situation that it might be possible to do. Let us not kid ourselves...theirs was not a humanitarian intercession, but from the start, a purely business decision designed to make their investors a profit. Does that make them the jackasses or was Bill Thomas the true villain in this scenario? My vote is for Bill!


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Bermuda said:


> I bought a Bills shirt size XL and it was skin tight. LL Bean for me. perfect fit


Really? Because I wear a medium in all the Bill's OCBD's I own and I'm typically a L-XL, 16.5-36.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Similarly, a Bills Popover design I purchased a couple of years back also proved to be rather generously sized, but oddly the length of the tail was a bit more truncated than I was expecting. Even sporting a 38" waist, the shirt still fits me like a tent (SWMBO's words, not mine). LOL. :icon_scratch:


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## 89826 (Jun 22, 2016)

eagle2250 said:


> It strikes me as odd that Bill Thomas is framed as the potential savior of the company and that the financial management company who came to his 'personal' rescue is characterized as "the jackasses." Should one look at the situation in a more revealing light, Bill Thomas made a series of bad business decisions, literally running his company into ruin and Source Capital only entered the picture to make what good of a bad situation that it might be possible to do. Let us not kid ourselves...theirs was not a humanitarian intercession, but from the start, a purely business decision designed to make their investors a profit. Does that make them the jackasses or was Bill Thomas the true villain in this scenario? My vote is for Bill!


Let's consider a few things. Bills was running smoothly and growing for 25 years- it was founded in 1990. After Source became an investor, the business started to grow like crazy. Do you think a private equity firm is a bunch of naifs? Taken advantage of by a guy who started out selling pants?

In other words Source was a driving force in the expansion. Did Thomas like that idea too? Almost certainly. He was no doubt looking to expand his business and take some money out. Surely he was tired of being squeezed for capital. Making and selling clothes is a capital-intensive business.

Who drove the over-expansion? My guess is Source, for a few reasons. First, they are the professional investment types and (so-called) business experts. They know what to do and how to lead the expansion of a business. That's their rap, anyway. Second, it was their money at risk. They only make investments where they have very substantial input or control. Third, they didn't invest because they liked khakis; they invested because they wanted to make lots of money. You have to get bigger to do that.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

89826 said:


> Let's consider a few things. Bills was running smoothly and growing for 25 years- it was founded in 1990. After Source became an investor, the business started to grow like crazy. Do you think a private equity firm is a bunch of naifs? Taken advantage of by a guy who started out selling pants?
> 
> In other words Source was a driving force in the expansion. Did Thomas like that idea too? Almost certainly. He was no doubt looking to expand his business and take some money out. Surely he was tired of being squeezed for capital. Making and selling clothes is a capital-intensive business.
> 
> Who drove the over-expansion? My guess is Source, for a few reasons. First, they are the professional investment types and (so-called) business experts. They know what to do and how to lead the expansion of a business. That's their rap, anyway. Second, it was their money at risk. They only make investments where they have very substantial input or control. Third, they didn't invest because they liked khakis; they invested because they wanted to make lots of money. You have to get bigger to do that.


Is this all conjecture or do you actually have knowledge on what happened?


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## 89826 (Jun 22, 2016)

Experience and ratiocination.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

89826 said:


> Do you think a private equity firm is a bunch of naifs?


No...in fact, I know many PE guys who do well enough to order custom-made boxer shorts. Some of them even supply their own fabric for an even more exclusive makeup. You would do well to emulate them.


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## 89826 (Jun 22, 2016)

smmrfld said:


> No...in fact, I know many PE guys who do well enough to order custom-made boxer shorts. Some of them even supply their own fabric for an even more exclusive makeup. You would do well to emulate them.


 Only pinching pennies.


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## ThomGault (Oct 6, 2016)

smmrfld said:


> No...in fact, I know many PE guys who do well enough to order custom-made boxer shorts. Some of them even supply their own fabric for an even more exclusive makeup. You would do well to emulate them.


Yes, but is the fabric they supply special enough to be previously worn as their shirt? ;-)


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

89826 said:


> Making and selling clothes is a capital-intensive business.


Run that by me again. Why do you suppose the rag trade is called the rag trade? Because people with no capital whatsoever can start out reselling rags they scrounge in the garbage and work their way a garment at a time into being retailers. Why do you suppose every kid with a FIT diploma starts a clothing company? Because you can make a sample, collect a few orders, and sell the receivables to a factor to get enough cash to manufacture the goods to fill the orders. The clothing business is the opposite of capital intensive. There are virtually no barriers to entry.


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

As interesting as the discussion of "Who Shot Cock Robin" is, does anyone have any real life experience with new Bill's? Are they or are they not back up to their early standards? Inquiring minds want to know.

I have a son, 2 grandsons and a great grand son who I may want to gift. Okay, maybe not the great grandson, but I have an old dress shirt or 2 that I'm considering having made into Gitman quality designer diapers.


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

tda003 said:


> As interesting as the discussion of "Who Shot Cock Robin" is, does anyone have any real life experience with new Bill's? Are they or are they not back up to their early standards? Inquiring minds want to know.


I asked the same question in this thread about a month ago. Here is the reply:

Originally Posted by *frankmartin* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=1818364#post1818364 The new made in the USA Bills Khakis are the same as they ever were. They are the same.


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

On my next Charleston trip, I'll compare Bill's Khakis and Charleston Khakis. Also my older Bill's to the new ones.


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