# Charlie Weis...failure rewarded!



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Yesterday it finally happened. Notre Dame fired Charlie Weiss. The firing was certainly warranted but, in spite of his rather obvious shortcomings in the job, they had to pay him in excess $18 million, for the privilege of doing so. What's wrong with this picture? Is this symptomatic of what's wrong with our economy? Has paying...BIG...for failure now become the American way(!)?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Fail big.

And never steal anything small!!


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I was hoping they'd give him a life time contract.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

It does seem strange.

I think that it's a symptom of a society that pays too much attention to sports at the expense of educating our children. We are now seeing the problems that are being created because too many people chase the (very few) college athletic scholarships (and even fewer) professional positions for athletes.

However, these coaches know that they are under constant fire from internet message boards and talk radio even if they are successful. To get them to risk taking your job, you have to give them some protection. I agree that the annual salaries, while justified by the free market, appear to be absurd. 

The real problem is a free market that values these athletic diversions more than they value genuine educational effort. While we can complain about the high salaries, in a democracy, we usually get the society we deserve while chasing what we want.

Hopefully the day will come when our society sees the necessity of educating our children better and pushes the more reliable path to success rather than chasing the athletic lottery.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Notre Dame Football brings in a LOT of money to the university. I am surprised all of the small government, free market guys are complaining about the contract that Weiss negotiated. They wanted a big name NFL coach on the marquee&#8230;.you have to pay for that. Period.

They have been through 6 coaches in 13 years - and are fighting an uphill battle against teams that are far inferior in every aspect except on the field. Charlie Weiss graduated 98% of his players - if you look at some of the southern powerhouses like Texas, LSU and Florida they hover around 50% on a good day.

So does Notre Dame want to be a great school with a perennial decent football team, or do they want to go all in to win again - and let the educational chips fall where they may?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I just commented on what the contract represents. I have no real problem with Mr. Weis doing what he could for himself and his family. There is a free market operating here (as opposed to what happens in corporations when boards of directors decide to break the bank for a few people who manipulate their way to the top of the pyramid.)

I stand by my point that we will be a healthier and wealthier society when we learn to value education as a society as much as we value athletic entertainment. (I mean REALLY value it; not pay lip service to it at graduation ceremonies, etc. I wonder how far we will have to slip as a society before some of these messages start getting through to a majority of our people.)


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

mrkleen said:


> ... So does Notre Dame want to be a great school with a perennial decent football team, or do they want to go all in to win again - and let the educational chips fall where they may?




In this instance were they paying him to win or did they just reward him for losing? How does that result in a restoration of greatness to ND's football program? I thought the source of greatness in an athletic endeavor, came from the heart...not from the pocket book. Perhaps we have simply lost sight of that?


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

The funny part of all of this is that ND will just make the same mistake again and again. Brian Kelly is not a sure thing at all. He's a great coach and his team has done very well.......against Big East teams. There's no reason you should assume he can bring a program like ND on the same level as Bama, LSU, Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, or USC. 

You want a blue print for turning a program around? Take a look at Alabama. They were absolutely 100% committed to bringing their program back to national prominence. They went out and offered $4 million a year to a guy who had already rebuilt a program and won a national title. After going 7-6 in his first season, Saban has Bama 24-1 in the last two seasons. Two straight undefeated regular seasons, two straight SEC championship games. 

If ND is truly committed to bring football back, they will offer the moon to a guy who has already turned a major program around and won a title. Start with Urban Meyer, then go to Pete Carroll, then go to Bob Stoops. I find it very hard to believe one of these guys wouldn't head to ND for $5 million a year and the full support of ND nation.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> In this instance were they paying him to win or did they just reward him for losing? How does that result in a restoration of greatness to ND's football program? I thought the source of greatness in an athletic endeavor, came from the heart...not from the pocket book. Perhaps we have simply lost sight of that?


If I recall, Weiss had several years remaining on his contract.

ND gambled that they'd want to hold onto Weiss long term, and lost. The consequence is that they have to pay him for his final years (or likely some flat termination fee) that they don't want him working.

In short, the contract was drafted with the expectation he'd be a winner and that ND would want to hold on to him. In addition, it probably needed to be drafted in such a manner to lure him to ND from his previous employer.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

nolan50410 said:


> The funny part of all of this is that ND will just make the same mistake again and again. Brian Kelly is not a sure thing at all. He's a great coach and his team has done very well.......against Big East teams. There's no reason you should assume he can bring a program like ND on the same level as Bama, LSU, Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, or USC.


First, Kelly's not a sure thing.

Next, I think the history augers for the very opposite of the strategy you outline. They'd be better off with someone who has won, despite having little tradition and resources, rather than raiding the head coach from an elite program (which would require that they offer him a Weis like deal). THAT would be making the same mistake all over again.

Consider the schools you named above and how they went about getting their coach: Meyer came from Utah. Stoops had never even been a head coach before. Carroll was a pro head coach, but not a successful one. Mack Brown had coached at NC and Les Miles has been at OK St, which were good but not elite programs when they left. None went out and simply lured away a coach at another top program.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

DCLawyer68 said:


> First, Kelly's not a sure thing.
> 
> Next, I think the history augers for the very opposite of the strategy you outline. They'd be better off with someone who has won, despite having little tradition and resources, rather than raiding the head coach from an elite program (which would require that they offer him a Weis like deal). THAT would be making the same mistake all over again.
> 
> Consider the schools you named above and how they went about getting their coach: Meyer came from Utah. Stoops had never even been a head coach before. Carroll was a pro head coach, but not a successful one. Mack Brown had coached at NC and Les Miles has been at OK St, which were good but not elite programs when they left. None went out and simply lured away a coach at another top program.


You do realize there are two additional paragraphs to my original comment? I believe I explained my rationale, but I'll do it again.

The hirings of Carroll at USC, Stoops at OK, Miles at LSU, Brown at Texas, and even Saban back at LSU are all the same type of hire. They are risky hires. They are just like ND hiring Willingham or Weiss. Those school's hirings worked out, ND's didn't. That's pretty much luck of the draw. They were guys who had not rebuilt programs and won national titles.

If you are ND, you don't try this again. You do what Alabama did. You hire a guy who has already done what you want to do. It took one mediocre season before Saban had Bama back in the top 5 programs in the country. Meyer has done it. Carroll has done it. Stoops has done it. You get one of those guys.

ND is no different then Bama. Traditional powerhouse that has fallen on mediocre times. Bama has turned it around and so can ND. But they have to swallow their pride and open their bank accounts.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

nolan50410 said:


> ND is no different then Bama. Traditional powerhouse that has fallen on mediocre times. Bama has turned it around and so can ND. But they have to swallow their pride and open their bank accounts.


 Alabama graduates 44% of their players&#8230;ND graduates greater than 95%.

Big difference.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

eagle2250 said:


> In this instance were they paying him to win or did they just reward him for losing? How does that result in a restoration of greatness to ND's football program? I thought the source of greatness in an athletic endeavor, came from the heart...not from the pocket book. Perhaps we have simply lost sight of that?


 Since when does heart come into play? This is a business transaction and a contract is a contract.

If you don't want to be locked into a big, long term contract - don't sign one.

But you are not going to get Bob Stoops, Pete Carol, or anyone else of that magnitude without it.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I just commented on what the contract represents. I have no real problem with Mr. Weis doing what he could for himself and his family. There is a free market operating here (as opposed to what happens in corporations when boards of directors decide to break the bank for a few people who manipulate their way to the top of the pyramid.)
> 
> I stand by my point that we will be a healthier and wealthier society when we learn to value education as a society as much as we value athletic entertainment. (I mean REALLY value it; not pay lip service to it at graduation ceremonies, etc. I wonder how far we will have to slip as a society before some of these messages start getting through to a majority of our people.)


The late, great Professor Carroll Quigley of Georgetown once remarked on the essential chiasmic irony of bigtime college sports: Students who needed to study more were on the field or court playing, while students who needed to exercise were sitting on their duffs watching.

It's a testament to ND's huge endowment that they can afford to fire Weis. Maryland has just decided to hang on to Ralph Friedgen because the cash-strapped UM athletic dept. simply can't afford to pay the millions it would cost to give him his walking papers. (Not to mention the cool $1 mil that they would have to pay the Fridge's failed OC, James Franklin, were they to opt not to give him the Fridge's job in the event of a vacancy.)


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

ND signed the contract with Weiss. Now they have to pay up.

Alabama is, indeed, the blueprint for rebuilding a program. However that doesn't always work, either. Look at South Carolina with both Holtz and Spurrier. Neither has produced the results that I'm sure USC hoped for.

ND needs to join a conference.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

nolan50410 said:


> You do realize there are two additional paragraphs to my original comment? I believe I explained my rationale, but I'll do it again.
> 
> The hirings of Carroll at USC, Stoops at OK, Miles at LSU, Brown at Texas, and even Saban back at LSU are all the same type of hire. They are risky hires. They are just like ND hiring Willingham or Weiss. Those school's hirings worked out, ND's didn't. That's pretty much luck of the draw. They were guys who had not rebuilt programs and won national titles.
> 
> ...


Ok. I'll quote your whole post although I don't really think anything I omitted changed anything.

You're assuming you know whether someone's a Saban (Alabama) or a Weis beforehand, though aren't you?

You are advocating a strategy (hiring "one of those guys") that the schools they are currently at did not. Florida, USC and OK all eschewed your "they've done it before and will do it again" approach and won with someone who _hadn't_ won a championship at a top level.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

AlanC said:


> ND signed the contract with Weiss. Now they have to pay up.
> 
> Alabama is, indeed, the blueprint for rebuilding a program. However that doesn't always work, either. Look at South Carolina with both Holtz and Spurrier. Neither has produced the results that I'm sure USC hoped for.
> 
> ND needs to join a conference.


South Carolina ain't Alabama, and it sure as hell ain't Notre Dame. Recruiting is a chore at SC. You are surrounded by ACC schools and UGA and UT in the SEC. SC never had, has, or will have the facilities and tradition of UGA or UT. Any coach has his work cut out for him at SC.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

DCLawyer68 said:


> Ok. I'll quote your whole post although I don't really think anything I omitted changed anything.
> 
> You're assuming you know whether someone's a Saban (Alabama) or a Weis beforehand, though aren't you?
> 
> You are advocating a strategy (hiring "one of those guys") that the schools they are currently at did not. Florida, USC and OK all eschewed your "they've done it before and will do it again" approach and won with someone who _hadn't_ won a championship at a top level.


Let me get this straight. In your eyes, the hiring of Weiss at ND and Saban at Bama were equal hires? Bama just got lucky? Let's compare. Weiss had NEVER coached at the college level. Weiss had NEVER been a head coach at ANY level. Nick Saban not only coached at the college level as a head coach, he rebuilt a losing program and won a national championship. Not to mention he left the Dolphins, where he was a head coach.

It's pretty easy to know if someone is a Saban or a Weiss beforehand. Who has done what you want to do? You CAN rebuild programs and win national titles by picking an up and comer. It's just that ND has proved time and time again that they are incapable of doing this. They can't hire the right guy.

I know you are a lawyer, but this ain't rocket science, it's football.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

AlanC said:


> ND needs to join a conference.


 I don't see any benefit from Notre Dame joining a conference. For the conference maybe, but not ND.

The whole point of conference play is that alumni from a certain university generally live in the same general region. For example, Ohio State fans are more likely to stay in Ohio or maybe move to Indiana, Michigan, Chicago - where they can continue to see their team once a year or more.

Notre Dame's alumni are very geographically dispersed, and a conference tie-in that would require them would be limiting to their mass appeal both to football players and students in general.  

Their TV rights alone are worth upwards of 9 million per year. If they joined the Big East or the Big 10 - they would be constrained under conference contracts.

They need to remain independent.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

nolan50410 said:


> Let me get this straight. In your eyes, the hiring of Weiss at ND and Saban at Bama were equal hires? Bama just got lucky? Let's compare. Weiss had NEVER coached at the college level. Weiss had NEVER been a head coach at ANY level. Nick Saban not only coached at the college level as a head coach, he rebuilt a losing program and won a national championship. Not to mention he left the Dolphins, where he was a head coach.
> 
> It's pretty easy to know if someone is a Saban or a Weiss beforehand. Who has done what you want to do? You CAN rebuild programs and win national titles by picking an up and comer. It's just that ND has proved time and time again that they are incapable of doing this. They can't hire the right guy.
> 
> I know you are a lawyer, but this ain't rocket science, it's football.


It depends on what you mean by "equal hires." Saban and Weis were both big name hires. Ironically, Saban had come from a position where he was not successful (Miami where he was 15-17 in two seasons) and Weis came from a position where he was VERY highly regarded (offensive coordinator for three Super Bowl winners). Frankly, I have a hard time (despite my law degree :icon_smile_big seeing how one could say that the Saban hire was the superior one AT THE TIME (in retrospect it is obvious).

Now here's a question for you.

Would you have recognized that Saban was the right man for LSU? He came from Michigan State, where he only had one great year (and quit the moment the regular season ended to take the LSU job). By your logic shouldn't LSU have passed him by?


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

mrkleen said:


> Their TV rights alone are worth upwards of 9 million per year.


For how long?



> They need to remain independent.


Hey, I'm still for giving Weis a lifetime contract.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

DCLawyer68 said:


> It depends on what you mean by "equal hires." Saban and Weis were both big name hires. Ironically, Saban had come from a position where he was not successful (Miami where he was 15-17 in two seasons) and Weis came from a position where he was VERY highly regarded (offensive coordinator for three Super Bowl winners). Frankly, I have a hard time (despite my law degree :icon_smile_big seeing how one could say that the Saban hire was the superior one AT THE TIME (in retrospect it is obvious).
> 
> Now here's a question for you.
> 
> Would you have recognized that Saban was the right man for LSU? He came from Michigan State, where he only had one great year (and quit the moment the regular season ended to take the LSU job). By your logic shouldn't LSU have passed him by?


Saban had success doing what Bama wanted to do. Saban rebuilt and won a championship. They knew he could recruit. They knew he could hire the right assistants. They knew he could coach. Weiss had success running the offense of one of the best franchises in NFL. An NFL OC doesn't recruit, doesn't hire assistants, and many times doesn't even make the play calls. There is no comparison. Let it go.

I understand that Saban at LSU wasn't the Saban that went to Bama. I understand Carroll, Stoops, and Meyer were not proven national champs. Most hires work that way. There is some level of risk involved. But ND has proven that they can't do what Florida, USC, Oklahoma, and Texas have done. They, for whatever reason, don't know how to hire the right guy.

There is only one program in the country that has recently been in the same position as ND. They tried something that most programs don't. They opened the pocket books and brought in the most proven champ on the table, at whatever cost.

I've never denied that a program can't have success with an unproven coach. But Notre Dame doesn't have to do that. They can get whoever they want, just like Bama did.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

nolan50410 said:


> Saban had success doing what Bama wanted to do. Saban rebuilt and won a championship. They knew he could recruit. They knew he could hire the right assistants. They knew he could coach. Weiss had success running the offense of one of the best franchises in NFL. An NFL OC doesn't recruit, doesn't hire assistants, and many times doesn't even make the play calls. There is no comparison. Let it go.
> 
> I understand that Saban at LSU wasn't the Saban that went to Bama. I understand Carroll, Stoops, and Meyer were not proven national champs. Most hires work that way. There is some level of risk involved. But ND has proven that they can't do what Florida, USC, Oklahoma, and Texas have done. They, for whatever reason, don't know how to hire the right guy.
> 
> ...


That's the unspoken premise isn't it? I am not as sanguine on this point. I don't see Carroll or Meyer going to ND from their current positions and Stoops has already said he would not.

As they say, time will tell!


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

AlanC said:


> For how long?


2015

https://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3452161


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

AlanC said:


> ND signed the contract with Weiss. Now they have to pay up.
> 
> Alabama is, indeed, the blueprint for rebuilding a program. However that doesn't always work, either. Look at South Carolina with both Holtz and Spurrier. Neither has produced the results that I'm sure USC hoped for.
> 
> *ND needs to join a conference.*


Why? For tv exposure? They have unequaled tv coverage. All of their home games are on NBC and all of their road games are on ESPN and ABC. They have no problem getting invited to the BCS bowl games _and_ they don't have to share any of the bowl money. 
Notre Dame will NEVER join a conference, there's no reason to. They can play whoever they want in all areas of the country. Joining a conference would limit their recruiting efforts.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> Why? For tv exposure? They have unequaled tv coverage. All of their home games are on NBC and all of their road games are on ESPN and ABC. They have no problem getting invited to the BCS bowl games _and_ they don't have to share any of the bowl money.
> Notre Dame will NEVER join a conference, there's no reason to. They can play whoever they want in all areas of the country. Joining a conference would limit their recruiting efforts.


I wonder if that's the case if Notre Dame continues to struggle and is not a factor in the National Championship. I don't know; I just wonder - - -


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> Why? For tv exposure? They have unequaled tv coverage. All of their home games are on NBC and all of their road games are on ESPN and ABC. They have no problem getting invited to the BCS bowl games _and_ they don't have to share any of the bowl money.
> Notre Dame will NEVER join a conference, there's no reason to. They can play whoever they want in all areas of the country. Joining a conference would limit their recruiting efforts.


+1 Unless Congress socializes college football, Notre Dame will remain an independent.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

DCLawyer68 said:


> That's the unspoken premise isn't it? I am not as sanguine on this point. I don't see Carroll or Meyer going to ND from their current positions and Stoops has already said he would not.
> 
> As they say, time will tell!


If I were those guys, I sure wouldn't want to leave my current job. If I'm the ND heads, I have to make one of those guy's feel like they can't possibly turn down my offer. We shall see. I have my doubts ND can pull this off.


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

Urban's out.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I wonder if that's the case if Notre Dame continues to struggle and is not a factor in the National Championship. I don't know; I just wonder - - -


Notre Dame has millions of .


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

mrkleen said:


> I don't see any benefit from Notre Dame joining a conference. For the conference maybe, but not ND.


And that, as much as anything, highlights what's ailing Notre Dame today. It's followers simply refuse to accept that this isn't your grandfather's Notre Dame. The mystique is gone in the eyes of the youth of America and it probably isn't coming back.

Schools like Alabama and Florida can build national championship caliber teams with in-state recruiting. Their kids have grown up wanting to play for their State school. A school like Tennessee with a great tradition but fewer in-state blue chip recruits to pick from must go national in recruiting and what brings a kid from California to Tennessee? The Southeastern Conference.

The landscape has changed. Conferences are gradually all going to a conference championship game which is starting to evolve into a stepping stone for the national championship game. If Notre Dame doesn't get into a power conference it's going to get left behind.

Cruiser


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Yes, ND is living off the championship capital it built over the past decades. They'd better get this hire right.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> And that, as much as anything, highlights what's ailing Notre Dame today. It's followers simply refuse to accept that this isn't your grandfather's Notre Dame. The mystique is gone in the eyes of the youth of America and it probably isn't coming back.
> 
> *Schools like Alabama and Florida can build national championship caliber teams with in-state recruiting. Their kids have grown up wanting to play for their State school.* A school like Tennessee with a great tradition but fewer in-state blue chip recruits to pick from must go national in recruiting and what brings a kid from California to Tennessee? The Southeastern Conference.
> 
> ...


That's exactly why ND shouldn't join a conference. They don't have in-state recruiting. They are a nationally televised team. Limiting themselves to one area of the country would only hurt their recruiting. Boise State is the one that should be trying to join an elite conference. Without one, they will never be respected by the BCS.

ND has had one of the top recruiting classes each year, Weis just didn't cut it as a head coach. No way should they have been 6-6 this year with the talented players they have. If they find a good coach and start having winning seasons again, they will have no problem getting a BCS bowl.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> And that, as much as anything, highlights what's ailing Notre Dame today. It's followers simply refuse to accept that this isn't your grandfather's Notre Dame. The mystique is gone in the eyes of the youth of America and it probably isn't coming back.
> 
> Schools like Alabama and Florida can build national championship caliber teams with in-state recruiting. Their kids have grown up wanting to play for their State school. A school like Tennessee with a great tradition but fewer in-state blue chip recruits to pick from must go national in recruiting and what brings a kid from California to Tennessee? The Southeastern Conference.
> 
> ...


 The mystique might be gone, but Notre Dame Football is still the biggest brand in college sports and one of the biggest in sports, period.

The Fighting Irish football program is worth $101 million based on what the team contributes to the university's athletic department for non-football sports ($23.5 million), the University's academic use ($23.2 million), and the incremental sales to South Bend, Ind., and the surrounding county when the team plays games at Notre Dame Stadium.

Big advantage for the Fighting Irish: A $9 million annual broadcasting fee from NBC, owned by General Electric, by far the most for any team. It also helps Notre Dame that it plays as an independent team, not belonging to an NCAA conference - so it doesn't have to share its broadcasting and bowl revenue the way other schools do.

For example, in 2006, Big Ten powerhouse Ohio State had to share its $15.75 million check for making it to the Fiesta Bowl with the other Big Ten schools. But Ohio State's opponent, Notre Dame, as an independent (non-conference) school, got to keep the full $15.75 million. So clearly, the South Bend school was the big financial winner of this year's bowls, even though it lost to Ohio State on the field.

All this during a period where the team was 56-44 over the last 100 games.

If they bring in a top notch coach, some strong recruits, and have a couple of 10-3 or 11-2 seasons&#8230;.their "mystique" will be right back on track.


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> Yesterday it finally happened. Notre Dame fired Charlie Weiss. The firing was certainly warranted but, in spite of his rather obvious shortcomings in the job, they had to pay him in excess $18 million, for the privilege of doing so. What's wrong with this picture? Is this symptomatic of what's wrong with our economy? Has paying...BIG...for failure now become the American way(!)?


Just a matter of contract law.

You pay BIG to get a signature from the coach you expect/hope can do what you require... if you choose to do so.

Make the wrong choice (Weis) and you can lose big, too. You don't pay him big to lose, you pay big so you can get out of the contract that you begged him to sign. You pay him big to go away and stop losing at your school.

However, if you make the right choice the payback can be huge:

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0901/092.html

Not mentioned here, but in another article:

"Alabama football coach Nick Saban and his wife Terry donated $1 million to the school's scholarship fund, designated for first-generation college students. Both Sabans were the first in their families to earn a degree.

The latest gift builds on a $100,000 donation the couple gave for the same purpose in January 2007." 
- _The NCAA News_, Jun 11, 2008


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

mrkleen said:


> The Fighting Irish football program is worth $101 million based on what the team contributes to the university's athletic department for non-football sports ($23.5 million), the University's academic use ($23.2 million), and the incremental sales to South Bend, Ind., and the surrounding county when the team plays games at Notre Dame Stadium.


While that looks impressive when considered in a vacuum (and it is impressive), the fact is that when those numbers are compared to other big name schools they lose some of their glitter.

Using the University of Tennessee as an example, that school has a monster of an athletic department with 85 percent of it funded by the football team alone with basketball picking up the rest. Heck, the women's basketball team brings in more revenue than many smaller schools football teams.

The entire athletic department is self funded. When you consider that they are paying one assistant football coach $1.2 million a year and the football stadium is currently undergoing a $200 million facelift, that's a remarkable achievement. And UT isn't alone. Many big name schools do the same.

This is what I meant when I said that Notre Dame followers are simply refusing to admit that times have changed. Notre Dame isn't the big dog anymore. The best thing they can do is to get into a power conference and try to start building their program back up. I think that they will fail as an independent.

Cruiser


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> While that looks impressive when considered in a vacuum (and it is impressive), the fact is that when those numbers are compared to other big name schools they lose some of their glitter.


Not sure what vacuum you are talking about - Notre Dame IS the most valuable team in college sports...period.

Nearly 25 mm more valuable than Tennessee.

https://www.forbes.com/2007/11/20/notre-dame-fooball-biz-sports-cx_ps_1120collegeball.html


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

mrkleen said:


> Not sure what vacuum you are talking about - Notre Dame IS the most valuable team in college sports...period.
> 
> Nearly 25 mm more valuable than Tennessee.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/2007/11/20/notre-dame-fooball-biz-sports-cx_ps_1120collegeball.html


Also, the football team's contribution to academics totaled $21.1 million for the 2006-2007 season--that's as much as the next five most valuable teams contributed to their respective schools combined.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Money is not an issue with Notre Dame. Florida, Tennessee, LSU, USC, and even Bama have nothing on ND when it comes to pocket books. Because money isn't an issue, there is little reason to join a conference. ND just keeps all that t.v. and bowl money for itself and laughs all the way to the bank.

Like someone said, the mystique may be gone for now, but if the Irish start winning 9+ games a year like the big boys do, then it all comes back. I remember watching the USC-ND game four years ago, the one with the "Bush push". Everyone watched that game, didn't matter what part of the country you were in. Notre Dame is the only program that is truly a national program.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> ND just keeps all that t.v. and bowl money for itself and laughs all the way to the bank.


Notre Dame will take in about $9 million in television revenue this year. Vanderbilt, the worst team in the SEC, will bank somewhere in the neighborhood of $13-15 million this year in television revenue. Who is laughing all the way to the bank?

Notre Dame's TV ratings have been in the tank so one can only wonder how much longer they will even have that $9 million dollar a year deal. Then what?

I'm not saying that Notre Dame isn't still a valuable commodity, it obviously is; but it's fast losing it's big dog status. The youth of today simply don't see Notre Dame the same way that their fathers and grandfathers do and unless Notre Dame get's it's head out of the sand and sees where the future is headed, it will be too late. Just like one car teams are no longer a factor in NASCAR, independents will not stay on top in big time college football.

The big contracts being negotiated by the power conferences will destroy the independents, even Notre Dame. I'm not saying that is a good thing. I'm just saying that it will happen.

Cruiser


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> Notre Dame will take in about $9 million in television revenue this year. Vanderbilt, the worst team in the SEC, will bank somewhere in the neighborhood of $13-15 million this year in television revenue. Who is laughing all the way to the bank?
> 
> Notre Dame's TV ratings have been in the tank so one can only wonder how much longer they will even have that $9 million dollar a year deal. Then what?
> 
> ...


You can't compare the SEC television deal with Notre Dame. The SEC's deal is mind boggling. ND isn't getting in the SEC anytime soon. Notre Dame's $9 million a year is a ton better then they'd get if they were a part of the Big 10 or Big East.

College football is about talent and coaching. You get talent by having tradition, facilities, etc. Notre Dame has all of that in bunches. They recruit top 10 classes nearly every year. Notre Dame has everything that Florida, Oklahoma, and USC have, plus more. What they haven't had is the proper coach to succeed.

Watch them hire the right coach, win 10+ games a season, and then see what the next t.v. deal is worth.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Revenue sharing brings money in in down years (and good years). Florida, for example, will have to share the money it gets from its BCS bowl appearance, but it will also share in the money from all the other bowls SEC teams will appear in.

If ND's financial model works for them, fine, it really doesn't matter to me. But their coaching hiring model isn't working, which is also fine by me. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> You can't compare the SEC television deal with Notre Dame. The SEC's deal is mind boggling. ND isn't getting in the SEC anytime soon. Notre Dame's $9 million a year is a ton better then they'd get if they were a part of the Big 10 or Big East.


Not necessarily. For example, in 2007 each Big Ten team received $14 million in shared revenue from the conference. That included both TV and bowl revenue and I'm assuming that those Big Ten teams that actually went to bowl games received more like SEC teams do. Since Notre Dame didn't go to a bowl game in 2007 it obviously received less revenue from TV and bowl money than did all of the Big Ten teams since even the Big Ten bottom feeders got $14 million.

Cruiser


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## PetroLandman (Apr 21, 2006)

*Rebuild?*

Many people assume that rebuilding always equals winning. All of the great posts above put that notion to a peaceful death. ND is unique and, while I'm not an Irish fan, in my mind should retain its uniqueness. I know the fans want wins, but the mystique is awesome. In the education business, like all others, money is the god. And as for worrying about the size and duration of coaches salary packages, I agree that 'Hey, a deal's a deal".

If you want a real lesson in rebuilding, winning and character, take a look at Texas Christian in Fort Worth. Again, not a fan, but that is a real program.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

As a Florida State Seminole fan I have no comment about other teams' guaranteed coaching contracts ... :devil:


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

mrkleen said:


> Notre Dame Football brings in a LOT of money to the university. I am surprised all of the small government, free market guys are complaining about the contract that Weiss negotiated. They wanted a big name NFL coach on the marquee&#8230;.you have to pay for that. Period.


All of us small government guys are complaining about his contract? A bit of hyperbole, no? :devil:


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

brokencycle said:


> All of us small government guys are complaining about his contract? A bit of hyperbole, no? :devil:


Yeah, sorry. I should have mentioned you by name as not being part of the group.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

nolan50410 said:


> You can't compare the SEC television deal with Notre Dame. The SEC's deal is mind boggling. ND isn't getting in the SEC anytime soon. Notre Dame's $9 million a year is a ton better then they'd get if they were a part of the Big 10 or Big East.
> 
> College football is about talent and coaching. You get talent by having tradition, facilities, etc. Notre Dame has all of that in bunches. They recruit top 10 classes nearly every year. Notre Dame has everything that Florida, Oklahoma, and USC have, plus more. What they haven't had is the proper coach to succeed.
> 
> Watch them hire the right coach, win 10+ games a season, and then see what the next t.v. deal is worth.


ND also has other recruiting advantages: constant TV exposure, lots of guys in the NFL, and a 'brand' that gives ND the ability to recruit nationally (it does not hurt that Catholic high schools are everywhere, either).

Expectations are always sky-high and some of the Domer fans can at times be intense verging on unhinged--I can recall when a vocal faction wanted to "dump" Dan Devine during what turned out to be a national-championship season, and then were calling for running him out of South Bend on a rail because he went 7 and 4 and missed a bowl the season after Joe Montana graduated--but the resources any ND coach has to work with are also formidable.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> +1 Unless Congress socializes college football, Notre Dame will remain an independent.


Now there's the ticket! Do ya think ND might be able to get a stimulus payment from us(!), to pay off Charlie Weis? We did it for the auto makers. We did it for the criminally negligent bankers and insurance execs. Why not do it for universities that are inclined to execute ill-advised employment contracts within their athletic departments? 

In each case, rescuing businesses from their own long term ineptitude seems wrong!

PS: ...and then a guy like Bobby Bowden, who does it well, over the long term, get's forced out. :crazy: There is much we could all learn from Coach Bowden!


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> Now there's the ticket! Do ya think ND might be able to get a stimulus payment from us(!), to pay off Charlie Weis? We did it for the auto makers. We did it for the criminally negligent bankers and insurance execs. Why not do it for universities that are inclined to execute ill-advised employment contracts within their athletic departments?
> 
> In each case, rescuing businesses from their own long term ineptitude seems wrong!
> 
> PS: ...and then a guy like Bobby Bowden, who does it well, over the long term, get's forced out. :crazy: There is much we could all learn from Coach Bowden!


Talk about a cluster-**** of a situation. The people at FSU make ND look good. Force out a legend to hire a guy who was a hot commodity FIVE YEARS AGO, who has a contract that says he gets $5 million if he isn't hired as head coach by the end of next season. Whose idea was that? According to most reports, Jimbo has been running the team for the last 3 years. In case you haven't noticed, the Noles haven't exactly been world beaters in that time period. Absolutely amazing.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> Talk about a cluster-**** of a situation. The people at FSU make ND look good. Force out a legend to hire a guy who was a hot commodity FIVE YEARS AGO, who has a contract that says he gets $5 million if he isn't hired as head coach by the end of next season. Whose idea was that? According to most reports, Jimbo has been running the team for the last 3 years. In case you haven't noticed, the Noles haven't exactly been world beaters in that time period. Absolutely amazing.


True, FSU hasn't been a world beater the past five years, but I don't see how that makes ND look good. FSU has a slightly better record and one more bowl appearance during that time period. Also the buyout of Charlie Weis' contract is reportedly costing ND anywhere from a low of $4 million to a high of $10 million. FSU could give Jimbo his $5 million and still be on the hook for less than ND.

But I agree, it's amazing. It cost Tennessee $6 million to sever ties with Phil Fulmer last year.

Cruiser


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Cruiser said:


> True, FSU hasn't been a world beater the past five years, but I don't see how that makes ND look good. FSU has a slightly better record and one more bowl appearance during that time period. Also the buyout of Charlie Weis' contract is reportedly costing ND anywhere from a low of $4 million to a high of $10 million. FSU could give Jimbo his $5 million and still be on the hook for less than ND.
> 
> But I agree, it's amazing. It cost Tennessee $6 million to sever ties with Phil Fulmer last year.
> 
> Cruiser


Phil and Charlie were their programs head coaches with fat contracts. Jimbo is an OC and judging by his results so far, he's not even a good one. Paying an overrated OC $5 million for not making him your head coach? That's just pathetic.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I actually think FSU's play calling has been better than it was with either Jeff Bowden or Mark Richt. It's been the defense that has been terrible. Ponder is a good QB and they have been scoring this year even without a good running game. They had a few O-line issues the last few years with injuries. I haven't heard anyone say Jimbo is the problem with FSU.


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