# Lawyers



## Mayday924 (Nov 18, 2005)

Ok guys, I'm headed to law school in August. I need some opinions on some things. First is a law school prep course recommended? Like a law school preview class? There is one that is by Princeton REview: . Also, what would you guys do if you had three months before starting law school? Would you guys start or do something to read ahead or go vacation?


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm headed to law school in August, too. I'm not taking a prep course. This spring and summer I'm planning to continue working and earn as much money as I can.

I know better than to expect the same cakewalk that undergraduate study was. I have a healthy respect for what I am about to undertake, but I'm also too old to be intimidated by law school.

Edit: one of the reasons that I'm not intimidated is that I recently attended my 20-year high school (prep school) class reunion and it seemed like almost a third of those guys are lawyers now. I knew those guys and what kind of students they were, and I know if they can get through law school, so can I.


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## Vladimir Berkov (Apr 19, 2005)

I am a 1l at the University of Texas at Austin. Looking at that website, some of the stuff looks somewhat useful and some of it less so. I would say that any substantive preparation is pretty much useless. Don't bother trying to read ahead or learn material in advance. 

Advice on outlining or exams may or may not be helpful to you depending on your school and your profs. At Texas they do a fair job of explaining what they want on the exam and how to prepare for it. (it varies from class to class of course) 

I didn't go to any law school prep courses, although I did read a few of the prep books. Some of what they said turned out to be true, some turned out to be completely wrong or inapplicable.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

A prep course sounds like a complete waste of time and money. You're going to be working very hard as soon as classes start - my best advice for this summer is to go to the beach.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

I did not take a prep course before law school and I don't think my performance suffered as a result. The only things I think you should do in the three months before law school are to exercise, eat well and enjoy yourself.


Here are a few tidbits of advice for once you are in law school: 

-Eat well and exercise - You will feel better, you will sleep better and you will stay healthier (very important when trying to study). This can be a tough task when you feel overwhelmed by your work, but if you make the time, it will pay off.

-Read extra materials ASAP. Everyone figures this out in law school, but many people do not figure it out until second year. Reading extra materials will enhance your understanding of what you are doing in class.

-Make sure that you are receiving advice for a reliable source. You will see hoards of 1Ls sharing information that they receive from upperclassmen regarding testtaking, studying, certain profs, getting jobs, etc. The problem (particularly at top law schools) is that you could vomit on your exams and get a B. So unless you know these upperclassmen personally and you know their marks - take their advice with grain of salt.


Good Luck. Don't believe the horror stories, the materials are not that hard and, if you have sufficient discipline, the workload isn't too bad either.


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

I did not take a prep class before starting law school. I did, however, buy commercial outlines for the first year classes several months before starting just to begin familiarizing myself with terminology.


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## Earthmover (Jan 3, 2005)

I agree with the people who said spend time on a beach. Take a long break, as the first year is hard on almost everyone. After that, if you do well, you can go on cruise control the next two years. I don't think these courses give anyone a real significant competitive edge; it's another way for people to make money off of paranoid law students.


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## Wimsey (Jan 28, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Earthmover_
> 
> I agree with the people who said spend time on a beach. Take a long break, as the first year is hard on almost everyone. After that, if you do well, you can go on cruise control the next two years. I don't think these courses give anyone a real significant competitive edge; it's another way for people to make money off of paranoid law students.


Exactly.


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

Play tennis or golf like I did before the start of law school because it will be a long time before you feel this care free again. If ever.


Joe


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## kabert (Feb 6, 2004)

Definitely take a vacation if you can afford it. I've never heard of a pre-law prep class. I'd avoid it. It's the kind of thing that may make the first week or two more familiar, but that's it. Better to go and have some fun. I spent 6 weeks in China followed by 2 weeks at the shore before I started law school -- glad I did. Law school is a grind, particularly the first year. You've got the rest of your life to work. Have some fun.


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## Siggy (Jan 14, 2006)

A law school prep course is a waste of money IMO. Save that money for the bar review course you will need three years from now.

OK, here's the real scoop and the best advice I can give. If you would like to read up before law school starts, while not necessary, I think that is not a bad idea. I wouldn't read cases, review outlines, or any of that stuff that you generally will be reading in law school. I think the two books that would be worthwhile for a new law student to read would be:

"Law 101" by Prof. Feinman. This book is really good at explaining in layman's terms the issues, policy and reasoning of the areas of the law. It will give you a basic understanding of the issues you will be discussing in the classroom.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0...f=pd_bbs_1/102-5180219-1271326?_encoding=UTF8

"The Common Law" by Oliver W. Holmes Jr. This is probably THE most classic work of scholarship in American civil law. There are many other classics (Fuller & Perdue's article on reliance interest, the Coase theorum, etc., which you will come across in law school) but this book is the basis of modern American contract law and is still worth reading today. 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0...102-5180219-1271326?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

My other advice is the following. First year law school can be a lot like high school. While it is important to socially mingle with your class (you will all be together all the time), don't fall into the trap of the constant parties. Study as much as you can because first year grades are the most important thing next to the bar exam. Your grades for the first year are MUCH more important than your grades in the second or third years, because your first year grades will decide whether you get onto law review, whether you get job interviews and a job for the summer and for after your second year, whether employers think you have what it takes etc. It is in your first year that you cover the basics of all that comes later in the law and what employers will consider the most, besides what school you are at.


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## lawschool82 (Oct 29, 2005)

I am a 1L at Wake Forest, and I think you would do well to follow the advice of the folks here on the forum. It won't take you long to figure out your individual style for briefing cases, and your 2L and 3L mentors will be great sources of knowledge for exam preparation. I have found that constant review is the best way to handle the stress of law school, although you will wonder how to fit the extra hours of review into your already busy schedule. Good luck!


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## jonroberts1234 (Oct 4, 2005)

read "king of torts"

MPM
The Guide to Getting More Out of Life 
https://www.thegmanifesto.com


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## clothingconnoisseur (Oct 9, 2005)

I will tell you what I wish I had known going into first year of law school. Do all of the reading before class as well as read the pertinent sections of the commercial outlines prior to the relevant class. Brief cases or not is up to you as long as you understand the issue, holding and reasoning. After class, forget you have the commercial outline for the material you just learned and MAKE YOUR OWN OUTLINE. Do this on a daily basis, after each days classes and you will be far ahead of everyone else. 

Also, study groups work for some people and not for others. It is up to you but I recomend you give them a try just prior to exams. Don't waste time with them too far in advance but in the weeks before exams they can be helpful in going over practice exams. And that is my next piece of advice. If you do your own outline all year long, you will know most of the material by the time the study period rolls around. Focus on doing practice exams if your professor has made them available or from another source if he/she has not - usually the Student Bar Association is a great source of old materials.

That said, don't fall in to the trap of non-stop partying, but don't be a hermit. Do not throw away your TV (I know someone who actually did this) or forget your old friends. You are allowed some time to relax and enjoy life so that you don't burn out a few months into the first year.

Good Luck!


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## anonterm (May 2, 2005)

I don't really have any new advice that hasn't already been given, but as a first year law student myself this year, I would just like to say stay calm and good luck.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Here are my tips, albeit from going to law school almost 30 years ago. I didn't figure this out until my second year, but once I did I got very good grades.

The main things to do are: 

(1) do an outline of your casebook as you go through it. The process helps cement the legal principles in your head and will help you prepare for the exam at the end of the year (see below). If you want to do the "extra credit" questions and research you usually find referenced at the end of a topic, you can, but I found many times these were distractions.

(2) Write down every thought and observation the professor makes in class. Generally ignore what your classmates have to say, unless the professor makes an observation it is a good point. Eventually you will find that no matter how brilliant your classmates sound, usually they don't have a clue what's going on and are just trying to sound smart.

It's ok to use various hornbooks and aids you can find at the local law bookstore, but just use them as a supplement. If you rely too much on them they can confuse you or overload your brain.

When it comes to preparing for end of the year exams, memorize your casebook outline by going over it repeatedly. Also go through your prof's comments that you've noted, because it will give you an idea what's important to the prof. Cram all into your short-term memory.

When you get to the final exam, it's generally like playing pinball. They grade you on not how brilliant your writing is, but how many issues you spot and cover in your answer. In other words, it's a process of ringing as many bells and lighting as many lights as possible. So don't worry too much about composing a brilliant answer; start writing as soon as you can and write until they tell you to stop.

If you don't know the answer to the question for some of the issues, don't let that panic you. If you've memorized your outline, you can generally come up with some imaginary majority rule and minority rule that sound ok, and the profs are not necessarily looking for the absolute right answer as much as how you do your analysis, applying the rules to the fact pattern at hand.

Once you have finished the exam and walk out of the room, flush it all out of your mind. You may find you don't remember anything about the exam questions or the subject when you walk out of the exam room, but that's ok and part of the process. It will still be in your subconscious later when you take the bar, or if it's not on the bar exam you don't care much.

Begin the process again for the next exam.

The fact is, I found that 90% of what I learned in law school was not that applicable to real life legal problems. When you become a real lawyer, you still have to research the law of your jurisdiction to give the right advice. What law school does is give you a "spidey sense," a feeling when you are practicing law of what are and are not things of concern in the cases you are working on.


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## DaveInPhilly (May 16, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Earthmover_
> 
> I agree with the people who said spend time on a beach. Take a long break, as the first year is hard on almost everyone. After that, if you do well, you can go on cruise control the next two years. I don't think these courses give anyone a real significant competitive edge; it's another way for people to make money off of paranoid law students.


I agree as well. I am just about to graduate from law school and I prepared for my first year by spending the summer working as a custodian for a middle school in the Bronx [8D] (easy money - no responsibility). Just relax, the hard part was really just getting into school, once your there, just keep up with your work, keep up on your outlines and you'll do just fine. No worries.

If you really want to be ambitious, go out and get Examples and Explanations for Civ Pro - everyone has an "ah ha" moment in that course and it usually comes as a result of reading through that book - the quicker it clicks the better off you will be.

Just incase it hasnâ€™t actually been explicitly said, FEEL ABSOLUTELY FREE to ask me, either via email or PM any questions you might have, be it figuring out the Rule Against Perpetuities, or how to get by without sleep during that first final exam period (...ok...I'm just kidding...sort of...). Iâ€™m sure every other AAAC lawyer/ law student is also willing to entertain any questions and offer any help they can.


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## Mayday924 (Nov 18, 2005)

Hey, thanks for the advice guys. I think I'm going to plan a trip maybe to Asia or Europe before I head to law school. 

I was also looking through other law school messageboards and I came upon a post about studying in the first year. Here's the link: 
Is what this guy recommends a good strategy the first year or would that just be taking a shortcut to learning the law?


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## DaveInPhilly (May 16, 2005)

To some extent I do agree, but a lot of what he says is garbage. I agree that the amount you study does not determine how well you do, many of those who "live" in the library will fail out, and you certainly need to have a social life or you will burn out. I never really spent more than 2-3 hours a night preparing for a classes, but not reading cases is what will get you in trouble. Stay away from canned briefs, they will just get you in trouble, I only used them, if at all, at the end of the semester if I need a little clarification on a case that I had already read. Black letter law may be all that you need to know, but it will do you no good if you never learn the reasoning behind the courts decision. Unfortunately you will waste a lot of time reading stuff that is ultimately unimportant, that is just something that goes along with being a law student - you really just have to do the reading. 

As for studying with a group, it is something that profs will praise up and down. Through undergrad and my first year of law school, I stayed away because I always ended up spending my time getting the other guy(s) up to speed and not really benefiting much myself. By second year I found those students who were more on my level, and actually found that studying with them - bouncing ideas and theories of each other - to be very helpful. You'll figure out what is best for you, no one can really advise you on this. 

As for study aids, they are unnecessary (I got through many classes without them) but they can help, just do not let yourself get to the point where you start to rely on them. They should supplement your own studies and only be used to clarify something you don't understand, or to help you see the big picture. The best study aids, I have found, are the note cases between the main cases (so many people skip these because most profs won't call on you to recite them, and its really a shame there is so much useful stuff in there) and the Comments in code courses (Civ Pro, Fed Tax, any UCC course, etc). I do like flash cards, I find they are particularly helpful for rule based courses like evidence, and any exam that will be heavy on multiple choice questions. 

Notice that this guy is only a 2l - you are not just studying for the exam - you are studying for the bar and learning to practice law all at the same time. It really s***** when your property prof says don't worry about riparian rights it wont be on the exam and then you find that the first of three essay questions on the NJ bar exam happens to deal solely with riparian rights - that happens to be why my boss is only licensed in PA and not Jersey, too. If I could do anything over again I would have worked harder in my legal research and writing classes. All that we were graded on where those memos and briefs, but there was so much more to that class, this was painfully clear once I had to apply these skill at work.

The last thing I want to say is that there is a problem I read about a lot, and I am now starting to understand. Students are relying on profs, study aids, or other students to learn the law that comes out of a case. Make an effort to learn the law from reading the case and not needing to have someone explain it to you. With the law that my firm practices there are very few treatises or horn books for me to look to, I need to pull the cases and figure out what the law is, and trust me you do not want to ask a partner to explain a case to you.


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## Wimsey (Jan 28, 2006)

There are a lot of different ways to success in law school, but some will work better for a particular individual's learning style than others. Which means, basically, that you will have to try things out and see what works for you. But I have two suggestions:

(1) Many law students who came to school after working basically treated law school like a 9-5 job - They came in at 8:30 or so, regardless of when their first class was, read in the library until class, went to class, went back to the library, went back to class, etc. And then they went home at 5, their work for the day basically done. 

I, on the other hand, being a traditional student, would get up at 10 and go to my 11 o'clock class. Afterwards I'd go eat or go back home, making sure I got to school in time for my 2:00 class. Maybe that would be followed by a 3:00 class. Then I'd go home, do some random stuff, and settle down at 8 to do my reading. I'd read until 11 or 12, and then go to bed. Repeat.

I had good grades in law school, and I'm sure I put in, overall, the same number of hours as the 9-5 people. What I didn't have, though, was any time for a life outside of school, and I think it is possible to get that and go to school.

(2) Con law is a required first year class. A few weeks into the class, I realized I really didn't have a very good handle on what was going on, so about 5 weeks in, I took a weekend and somewhat carefully reread all the cases we had read up to that point, along with my notes. By the end of the weekend, I had a good handle on what was going on in class - and I felt on top of the material for the rest of the semester, ending up with one of two A's in the 70 person section.

The point is not so much that I got an A as that I got an A in a class in which I was completely lost for the third of the semester. As an inexperienced 1L, I didn't realize how unusual this was - but if I had to go back to law school as the result of some sort of star-trek-style temporal anomaly, I would do the 5-week-rereading thing.

But other than telling you how to get good grades and have a life in law school, I have nothing else to add.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mayday924_
> 
> Hey, thanks for the advice guys. I think I'm going to plan a trip maybe to Asia or Europe before I head to law school.
> 
> ...


I would take the advice with a grain of salt. Depending where you are going, the massive amounts of failures that poster described simply do not happen. Most better schools have low attrition rates. Leads me to believe that the poster you linked to is at a less compeitive school. Talk with people who are already at the school you are going to attend.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

> quote:
> I would take the advice with a grain of salt. Depending where you are going, the massive amounts of failures that poster described simply do not happen. Most better schools have low attrition rates. Leads me to believe that the poster you linked to is at a less compeitive school. Talk with people who are already at the school you are going to attend.


I would agree with this. Although classes in my law school could be brutal (many profs, and especially in first year, still followed the "Paper Chase - Professor Kingsfield" model of trying to bully and humiliate students in class) usually the people who left didn't flunk out but self-selected themselves out. They either decided law wasn't for them or didn't want to put in the work necessary. The school actually prided itself on the fact that its attrition rate was low.

As for the grill them until they break method, I remember one professor defending it this way when his manner was challenged in class by a brave student: "When you get out of law school and practice law in the real world, you have to be prepared to defend yourself every day. I am just preparing you for that reality. What you'll face out there is worse than the treatment I am giving you here."

Still, I remember it was rather disconcerting when one of our first-year profs had a woman in tears in the first week of class because she didn't know the difference between a "fee simple determinable" and a "fee simple subject to condition consequent."

From what I understand, the real brutal Socratic method of teaching has been largely abandoned now, and classes are a much more humane place.


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## lawschool82 (Oct 29, 2005)

What kind of idiot doesn't know the difference between a fee simple determinable and a fee simple subject to a condition subsequent? (laugh as I read through the casebook and my outline as I study for my Property exam).

"Sue them all - the short, the fat, and the tall." D.T. Smith, Sage of Property Law


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## MER (Feb 5, 2006)

To the gentleman who studies law at wake forest, were you lucky enough to study under Michael Green yet? I saw him lecture a while back, very entertaining and very knowledgeable.


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## lawschool82 (Oct 29, 2005)

I have not had the pleasure of studying under Professor Green, but I have two more years to take advantage. Thank you for the advice.

"Sue them all - the short, the fat, and the tall." D.T. Smith, Sage of Property Law


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

The nice thing about picking a profession like law is that one can do it with or without an organization. You can always hang your own sign and choose a path of self-sovereignty.

M8


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Change fields! Lawyers give 99% of their profession a bad name


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## lawschool82 (Oct 29, 2005)

The law is still an honorable profession. The dark side (Plaintiff's lawyers) have made segments of the law more like a commodity, but a lawyer can still do a lot of good for a lot of people.

I only meant the "dark side" in jest. Plaintiffs need quality representation if the system is to work.


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## MER (Feb 5, 2006)

Yeah, the government does a very good job of making sure nobody makes too much. 10-20 years ago you made a killing in malpractice. Now a days that has dried up a good deal and those same lawyers are doing workman's comp, etc. Then recently class actions have been giving some lawyers their own private jets but we've been cracking down on that as well.

The only problem is that when we crack down on these areas we can sometimes hurt the rights and access of the clients in our attempt to make sure the lawyers don't make more then we think they should.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Some of us are "dirt lawyers" (real property attorneys). We tend to be quite honorable but usually make much less than the realtors and principals in the the transactions we advise on.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

My opinion

1) Read all the reading before class. Brief all of the cases.

2) I think study aids are a waste of time, unless your professor has given you no useful text or any guidance at all.

3) I firmly believe in the "don't buy into the hype" method for law school. It really is not that awful if you've ever done any reading before during your life. The people I've noticed who have the most trouble are people who've done majors that didn't involve much reading, or people who just don't read. I think it's almost a clubby thing among lawyers and law students to say what a horrible and awful thing law school is. True, it can be confusing, and at times incredibly boring (*cough* *cough* Civil Procedure *cough*) but I thought high school AP Calculus was worlds harder, as was the Advanced Tonal Theory class I once took when I thought I wanted to add a music minor.

4) Playing off 3) don't be alarmed by the fact that other people seem to be becoming neurotic in their efforts to study. They will not do better than you. People drive themselves absolutely crazy studying, trying to read through 4 different study aids and commercial outlines, etc etc. The vast majority of them still get Bs and the people that get As tend to show up sort of randomly. My friends, and I, in several cases have found that the class we went nuts over study-wise ended up being the class we only got a B in, whereas the class we shunted aside to study like crazy for the first class was an "A" class. 


5) This goes against advice above. My Torts professor told us the first day of school not to outline until at least a month before exams and I firmly believe in this principle. You can't pull everything together until you've taken most of it. As a result, though my exams are the May 6-12 area, I am just starting to outline this Monday. It will be pulled together and fresh in my mind. I've forgotten cases and rules from the beginning of the semester at this point (evne had I outlined them).

To make my outlines, I combine (and condense) my briefs and notes, as well as meet with a maximum of 3 other friends to add anything and compare. The outline is both my review and my pulling together. When I sit down to take the exam, I feel like I know the material, and as my Contracts professor once said "why don't you people stop trying to find some machine like way to get an "A" and see if maybe you can actually master the material" ....hear hear.

6) Make time to have fun. I don't care how much work you have, you can still get it done. Go out on weekends. Please. People will constantly tell you that the grades are all that matter. It's my hypothesis that, while the importance of grades is indisputable, the importance of social skills, connections, and just the ability to communicate and relate to normal, real world situations is equally invaluable, since all those real world people you see out there in the bars and restaurants will be your clients, friends, bosses, etc.

7) Exercise. Sitting and studying, as well as going out and having a good time on weekends, will make you gain weight if you don't exercise. Swim, play squash, whatever. Just exercise.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> True, it can be confusing, and at times incredibly boring (*cough* *cough* Civil Procedure *cough*) but I thought high school AP Calculus was worlds harder, as was the Advanced Tonal Theory class I once took when I thought I wanted to add a music minor.


Are you serious in calling Civil Procedure boring? Civil Procedure is the best man. I wrote a 70 page law review note on a civil procedure topic (right of creditors committees to intervene in adversary proceedings in bankruptcy - actually, this is a Bankruptcy Procedure topic, but still very similar to Civil Procedure. [8D]

Hehe, but in all seriousness, if you want to succeed in law school just keep doing what has worked for you through the years. I mean, I think a major problem that people run into in law school is that they try to change up their whole style of studying to fit the supposed law school mold and this usually screws them up. If you've never studied well in a study group then now is not the time to start.

Oh yeah, and another very important thing, in fact, so important that it is key is to write your own outlines. I made 70 - 100 page outlines for every class (first year). This ensured that I learned all of the material (you learn better when you write stuff down then when you just read it). Then I took the monster outlines and wittled them down to smaller 20 page or so outlines. I then took that oultine and summarized it on about 2 or 3 pages that I would use for reference during exams. This method was highly effective (for me).


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## jeansguy (Jul 29, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> I'm headed to law school in August, too. I'm not taking a prep course. This spring and summer I'm planning to continue working and earn as much money as I can.
> 
> ...


You've been out for 20 years and are going to law school now? Good for you.

May I ask what you did with the past 20 years and why you feel motivated to make such a change now? Feel free to email me if you feel this is post hijacking...

Just looking back at my career as well and other's opinions are very helpful.

www.thegenuineman.com


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