# What does "high arm-holes" really mean?



## aspiringadult (Jul 13, 2010)

I can't figure this one out. Seems like the arm-holes are at the same place on all jackets: the top. So...what's the distinction? It's not just that the arm-hole is smaller right? Cut closer to the body perhaps?


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## KvnO (May 25, 2010)

Here's a quick blog post about the subject:

https://mrlapel.blogspot.com/2008/04/its-all-in-armholes.html


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Its a misnomer really. It refers to the bottom of the arm scye being higher up.

It really should be renamed "smaller arm holes".


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## paul winston (Jun 3, 2006)

When you have a higher ( "Smaller") the armhole you have more freedom of movement. Large armholes have the same restraining effect on a jacket that having too long a raise has on trousers.
Paul Winston
Winston Tailors
www.chipp2.com
www.chipp2.com/blog/


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

paul winston said:


> When you have a higher ( "Smaller") the armhole you have more freedom of movement. Large armholes have the same restraining effect on a jacket that having too long a raise has on trousers.
> Paul Winston
> Winston Tailors
> www.chipp2.com
> www.chipp2.com/blog/


A good example is sailing foul weather gear. Good racing gear requires freedom of movement for winching sails and many other tasks but stretchy waterproof fabrics are still in the development stage and very expensive, thus 'high armholes' are critical for functional racing gear (see Henry Lloyd).


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

Very good question - thanks for posting it. I often wondered what this meant. 

Are the armholes of your suits a consideration when getting shirts made? I've certainly noticed that some shirts go better (ie the cuffs don't disappear) with certain suits than with others.


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## jean-paul sartorial (Jul 28, 2010)

You should get the armholes (and other measurements) right on your shirts because otherwise they are uncomfortable and unattractive with or without a suit.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

For example, I recently bought a Jack Victor blazer from STP. The arm holes were very low - so when I buttoned the jacket, the moment I raised my arms at all the entire jacket lifted off my shoulders. I returned it. In addition, unless one has one's arms rigidly held at the sides, low arm holes make for a very untidy silhouette.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

aspiringadult said:


> I can't figure this one out. Seems like the arm-holes are at the same place on all jackets: the top. So...what's the distinction? It's not just that the arm-hole is smaller right? Cut closer to the body perhaps?


Smaller and therefore, looking at the coat in profile, do not extend extend so far down. IE they are higher set in the coat.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

ashie259 said:


> Very good question - thanks for posting it. I often wondered what this meant.
> 
> Are the armholes of your suits a consideration when getting shirts made? I've certainly noticed that some shirts go better (ie the cuffs don't disappear) with certain suits than with others.


Absolutely. If the arm hole of the shirt is larger than the arm hole of the jacket, you run into problems. Aside from the obvious disjunction of having greater freedom of movement with your outer garment, but not your shirt. However, its probably not a very noticeable problem for the majority of society since shirts are now cut like tents and there is plenty of extra fabric to "give" and let the wearer have pretty good freedom of movement.

edit: Besides, it just looks better/cleaner.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

the shirt has a deeper armhole, that is a lower bottom.
the suit has a higher bottom. 
when you put the shirt sleeve inside the suit sleeve the bottom of the suit armhole pushes up
the bottom of the shirt sleeve armhole. thats why the shirt sleeve is suddenly shorter than it was before. 
it just got pulled up from the top. 
to demonstrate.
put on your deep armhole shirt. put your hand under your arm edgewise. raise your hand close to your armpit. 
see that shirt sleeve get shorter.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

The armhole should be fitted to you like the waistband of your trousers. It should be neither loose nor tight.

If your armhole is enormous then when lift your elbows up a little your coat will fly open and splay all over the place like this:










This often happens just by placing your elbows on top of your work desk.

For some reason, retailers pressure RTW cutters to draft enormous armholes that a child could pass through. They think this will make the coats more comfortable and that this is what you all want.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

Sator said:


> The armhole should be fitted to you like the waistband of your trousers. It should be neither loose nor tight.
> 
> If your armhole is enormous then when lift your elbows up a little your coat will fly open and splay all over the place like this:
> 
> For some reason, retailers pressure RTW cutters to draft enormous armholes that a child could pass through. They think this will make the coats more comfortable and that this is what you all want.


Surely they fit more people who walk in off the street which is an RTW vendors sole interest? Good fit is the least of their interests.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Sator said:


> The armhole should be fitted to you like the waistband of your trousers. It should be neither loose nor tight.
> 
> If your armhole is enormous then when lift your elbows up a little your coat will fly open and splay all over the place like this:
> 
> ...


+1

People have the misconception that larger is more comfortable. They wouldn't understand the concept of a tighter armhole allowing more ease of movement. One common aversion to suits (one that I had when I was a kid) is that they are too restricting. Most people think tighter is always more restricting. Most men would try on a jacket with high armholes and immediately reject it without second thought. They wouldn't believe that a smaller armhole could be less restricting.


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## Martin Stall (Sep 11, 2006)

Sator, forget about the armholes on that one. The jacket is simply way to big for starters.


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## kmckmc (Jan 27, 2005)

perhaps this could help to explain what is high armhole.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Now, if only I could find an OTR brand that does that and doesn't break my bank.


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## TheBarbaron (Oct 8, 2010)

Matt S said:


> +1
> 
> People have the misconception that larger is more comfortable. They wouldn't understand the concept of a tighter armhole allowing more ease of movement. One common aversion to suits (one that I had when I was a kid) is that they are too restricting. Most people think tighter is always more restricting. Most men would try on a jacket with high armholes and immediately reject it without second thought. They wouldn't believe that a smaller armhole could be less restricting.


They would and do immediately reject them. Our Joseph and Feiss suits have a _slightly _higher arm hole than your average elephantine RTW suit, and three out of five gents who slide on the coat immediately complain about tightness around the arm or armpit. You see, they can _feel_ the arm hole, which indicates that they must be losing circulation in the extremities and will soon die.

A very few more thoughtful customers, when asking about what alterations can be done to a sleeve or armhole, eventually express some sort of understanding when we explain it. Always saying "We can deepen the armhole, but you lose a good amount of mobility; we can not raise the armhole" covers my moral bases, but I wish that more brands would design based on that face. If I need it bigger, that's a relatively easy fix by any decent tailor. If I need it smaller, we're more or less SOL.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Seems like I read somewhere that the top end of the sleeve must be gathered slightly when it is stitched into the smaller/higher armhole, which allows greater freedom of movement.

Does that sound right Barbaron?

:icon_study:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

TheBarbaron said:


> If I need it bigger, that's a relatively easy fix by any decent tailor. If I need it smaller, we're more or less SOL.


Exactly. There's probably a good riddle in there... What's can be made bigger by cutting? A hole. Making a hole smaller requires adding material.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

What if you just sew up the underside part of it though?

I suppose it would depend if you had a little bit of extra room to play with in the chest.

I have no idea what I'm talking about, just brainstorming, trying to get my mind around the geometry of a jacket, what makes it fit, look good, etc. etc.


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## B9E (Nov 10, 2008)

kmckmc said:


> perhaps this could help to explain what is high armhole.


Who made this coat?


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## Busterdog (Jan 1, 2010)

Regarding high armholes, Hickey Freeman MTM now has a line with high armholes and higher gorge, a vast improvement.


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