# Navy Tux (J Crew Ludlow) for my wedding - question on shirt, shoes, and tie



## sean0315 (Jan 14, 2014)

Hello,
First time poster, but long time lurker/viewer. My apologies if this has been answered before, but I searched the forums and couldn't find anything...

So I have purchased a Navy tux (J Crew Ludlow) for my wedding, and I wanted to know exactly what type of the following I should wear with it. I know that the forum doesn't particularly like the Ludlow suits, which is fine, but it fit me well and I loved it. Suit link:
https://www.jcrew.com/browse/multi_...=2534374302070761&bmUID=ke0XaGV&splitNumber=3

Specifically, what type/color of shoes should I be wearing? I assume black and shiny, but is there any situation in which I could wear dark or light brown? I tend to like wingtips, so in either scenario, would those be appropriate? And, should I stick with dark laces, or can I infuse some color here (one of our wedding colors is light pink, so I was thinking that laces in that color might be ok)?

Also, is a black bowtie the only way to go here? I want a bowtie for sure, just didn't know if I had any color options.

For the shirt, can I go with a slimmer fitting white dress shirt, or do I need a formal tuxedo shirt? I really hate cufflinks so would prefer just a regular barrel cuff if possible, though I don't want to ruin the look.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Shoes must be black. Brown is never appropriate with formal wear. Plain toe, patent leather oxfords are best, but you can get away with regular black calf shoes. They just need to be as simple as possible, no broguing or any decoration like that. You really should stick with dark laces, too. I wouldn't worry about wearing something pink, aside from maybe a pink flower on your lapel.

Bow tie should be black or the same color as your tux's lapels.

You could get away with a regular shirt, but that's not the best option. You really need a tuxedo shirt that's designed to close with studs instead of plain buttons. J Crew, Brooks Brothers, Charles Tyrwhitt all make slim-cut versions, and I'm sure there are plenty more options out there. They're all going to have french cuffs, though - barrel cuffs are less formal and would be incongruous with a tuxedo.

Don't forget, traditionally you need either a vest or a cummerbund, too. A lot of folks skip that nowadays, a trend that has grown since Daniel Craig went without in _Casino Royale_, but traditionally that's a faux pas.

https://www.blacktieguide.com/ has all the info you could possibly want or need about how to do black tie properly.

Congrats on your wedding!


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

You don't "have" to do any of these things, but if you're going to wear light brown shoes, a plain dress shirt, and a non-black bow tie, why not just go with a regular suit? Traditionally, black tie is one of the most constrained dress codes in men's fashion because it works. Any man who follows the rules and feels comfortable in his tuxedo is going to look great. Black tie guide, which Orgetorix pointed you towards, is a fantastic resource.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

My wedding is coming up in march, so I've been putting together some of this stuff as well. My comments here relate only to black tie attire, not normal suits or morning dress (as already suggested, check out black tie guide if you're going this route).

For the shirt, I went with (and highly recommend) the Charles Tyrwhitt Extra Slim Fit Marcella front shirt with a turn down collar (I think of wing collars as appropriate only for white tie and I hate pleats, but that's just me). French cuffs are a must with black tie, barrel is far too informal. For shoes, black patent leather is always correct (preferably with closed lacing, if you want to be absolutely correct), though many will tell you to go with a nice, highly polished black leather shoe (admittedly far more versatile because you can use it regularly after the wedding, unlike patent leather, which would be limited to tux use). I purchased the Florsheim Kingston in patent leather, it was formally correct and within my price range (got it for $104+free shipping after a coupon). Don't do colored laces, it'll look gimmicky in a decade. With the bow tie and cummerbund- go with black in a texture that matches the facing of your jacket lapels (satin with satin lapels, or grosgrain with grosgrain lapels). As for vests, my personal opinion: just don't do it. Bow tie + cummerbund is much more in keeping with the clean lines a tux is supposed to present IMHO. You may be able to add a bit of color with a pocket square, but honestly, my wedding's colors are navy/cream with coral accents, but I'll be wearing a white linen square.

Black tie isn't really the venue to show originality, the reason it works so well is that it creates clean lines and , like was said earlier, looks good if done correctly and within the bounds of traditionalism. Part of the reason I like black tie for a wedding is that, if it's done according to traditional rules, it allows you to fade into the background a bit and your bride to be the one who stands out (because let's face it, the wedding is her day really). The big thing for me when I was putting together my rig for that day is that I didn't want to be wearing something that would look dated in 20 years, my parents got married in the early eighties, but with the way my dad was dressed, the wedding could've been in 1950 or yesterday. Timelessness is what I would be aiming for, the colored vests and pintrest-y stuff is going to look down the road how powder blue tuxes with ruffles look now. 

Full disclosure: the one thing my tux is not correct on is that it has notch lapels. It was a gift from a friend a while back, and I'm actually seeing today if I can get it exchanged for a ventless peak lapel version. Good job with the peak lapels, but you may catch some flak for the two buttons and vents.

Edit: forgot to mention studs/cufflinks. I would suggest black onyx with a silver colored setting as the most elegant/unobtrusive. I'm wearing black and silver studs, but for cufflinks I'm wearing some small, sterling silver Tiffany ones my fiancé had engraved with my initials and gave me as a graduation present one year. Also, not that it really matters, but Vera Wang for Men was apparently designed as a cologne meant for weddings. I havent tried it yet, so I can't vouch for it, but I did order some online specifically for my wedding day.

Short version: don't break the rules with black tie. There's a reason it's worked for a century.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Sean,
Congrats on your impending nuptials. Please know that you are getting very good info and advice from the three preceding respondents. A tuxedo should be black or midnight blue. True navy is suboptimal, but could work if it is dark enough. Mayostard (below) raises a fair point, but I doubt that the fashion forum posters would be any more enthusiastic about colored laces, a tie other than a black bow, wingtips, etc. The Ask Andy forums generally favor the classic over the fashionable, and that preference is probably most pronounced in the area of formal wear.


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## mayostard (Mar 10, 2013)

sean0315 said:


> Specifically, what type/color of shoes should I be wearing? I assume black and shiny, but is there any situation in which I could wear dark or light brown? I tend to like wingtips, so in either scenario, would those be appropriate? And, should I stick with dark laces, or can I infuse some color here (one of our wedding colors is light pink, so I was thinking that laces in that color might be ok)?
> 
> Also, is a black bowtie the only way to go here? I want a bowtie for sure, just didn't know if I had any color options.
> 
> For the shirt, can I go with a slimmer fitting white dress shirt, or do I need a formal tuxedo shirt? I really hate cufflinks so would prefer just a regular barrel cuff if possible, though I don't want to ruin the look.


You should probably post this somewhere other than the trad forum. The trad answer (not to say that's the only answer) is pretty much exactly the opposite of everything you've expressed any interest in.


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## sean0315 (Jan 14, 2014)

Wow thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. All great info, and all of the answers I was expecting, so I guess I was on the right track. 

I will cross-post this to a different forum, just to see what some others think, but I feel as though I will try to keep it as traditional as possible. Thanks again!


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Actually, since were on this topic, I wanted to pose a question. Like I said in my earlier post, my tux was a gift and is a black, notch lapel, single button, flat front, slim fit joseph a bank tux with satin lapel facing. My other items are:

black satin self tie bow tie/cummerbund
white linen pocket square (tv fold)
white braces
Charles Tyrwhitt extra slim fit Marcella front turn-down collar shirt
Florsheim Kingston oxfords (patent leather/closed lacing/leather soled)
black silk OTC socks
Onyx/sterling studs and sterling Tiffany cufflinks
Tissot Desire slimline dress watch (poor man's Patek Phillippe Calatrava)

In the event I'm unable to exchange my tux, blacktieguide says that having all the other details correct lessens the pedestrian impact of a notched lapel. I was curious as to the forum's opinion on this statement.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

orange fury said:


> Actually, since were on this topic, I wanted to pose a question. Like I said in my earlier post, my tux was a gift and is a black, notch lapel, single button, flat front, slim fit joseph a bank tux with satin lapel facing. My other items are:
> 
> black satin self tie bow tie/cummerbund
> white linen pocket square (tv fold)
> ...


The "pedestrian impact" of a notched lapel is unlikely to be noticed by anyone in almost any crowd. I wouldn't concern myself; as the website illustrated, the very well-dressed George Clooney wears notched lapels on his tuxedo. However, no harm done by seeing if you can exchange for a shawl collar.


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## Spin Evans (Feb 2, 2013)

sean0315 said:


> Wow thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. All great info, and all of the answers I was expecting, so I guess I was on the right track.
> 
> I will cross-post this to a different forum, just to see what some others think, but I feel as though I will try to keep it as traditional as possible. Thanks again!


What you want to wear is perfectly acceptable (though perhaps not optimal) with a suit. I, for one, have vowed not to wear a tuxedo to my wedding. It's partly a reaction to the satin nightmare that is the David's Bridal paint-by-numbers weddings I've attended. It's also partly because I may want to have a little more of my "personality" to show, and black tie simply ain't the right market for that.

Watch any awards show, and you'll quickly find out that the best dressed men are the ones who_ don't _break the rules. Adding "details" only distracts the viewer from what really matters, and that is the person IN the tuxedo. You don't want to look back at your pictures and cringe that you chose to wear x and y. I'm assuming you've read Put This On's guide to wedding attire?


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## sean0315 (Jan 14, 2014)

I did not want to wear a tux either, initially. I have rented too many of those from ill-fitting ones as a groomsmen to hate the idea. But I thought that this blue one, tailored correctly, would be classic but also allow a little of my own style to show, even if i keep it fairly traditional. Full disclosure, I had initially planned to wear seersucker, but thought it wouldnt be formal enough, and when I thought about navy or charcoal suits, my mind jumped to business meetings. However, there were some great suits on suitsupply that I could go with instead of the tux, should I decide I want to insert a bit more personality into my attire.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

orange fury said:


> In the event I'm unable to exchange my tux, blacktieguide says that having all the other details correct lessens the pedestrian impact of a notched lapel. I was curious as to the forum's opinion on this statement.


I agree. Until very recently, I was in the same boat as you - my only tuxedo was a notch-lapel version I got from Jos. A Bank when I was in college, poor and didn't know much better. I never could justify the expense of replacing it with a peak or shawl model, since I hadn't had many occasions to wear black tie in several years. Now a friend has asked me to usher at his wedding, so I took advantage of the opportunity to get a new (to me) one I like better.

I say go for it. The horror of the notch lapel is very much overstated on these forums. It's not preferable by any means, but it's perfectly acceptable. You'll still likely be one of the best dressed men at any event.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Seersucker would've been great if the wedding was in the deep south and your dress code was GTH clothing (I'm not being sarcastic either, I would love to go to something like that, especially if mint juleps were on the menu).

One thing you might consider is a navy suit with a wedding tie (usually black, white, and grey in a dogtooth, check, or plaid pattern). This with a white shirt (French cuff, I still don't think barrel is appropriate here) and white pocket square could allow you to wear the wing tips you talked about (though I would probably go with black captoes).

im also saying all this assuming your wedding is indoors at night, FWIW


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Orgetorix said:


> I agree. Until very recently, I was in the same boat as you - my only tuxedo was a notch-lapel version I got from Jos. A Bank when I was in college, poor and didn't know much better. I never could justify the expense of replacing it with a peak or shawl model, since I hadn't had many occasions to wear black tie in several years. Now a friend has asked me to usher at his wedding, so I took advantage of the opportunity to get a new (to me) one I like better.
> 
> I say go for it. The horror of the notch lapel is very much overstated on these forums. It's not preferable by any means, but it's perfectly acceptable. You'll still likely be one of the best dressed men at any event.


Absolutely agree. If I were in the market for a tuxedo I would not buy notch, but if notch was what I owned I would not worry at all about wearing it, especially if all other details were safely traditional.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Great, thank you guys! I'm friends with the store manager of the JAB location where it was bought, so I'll see if he'd be willing to do an exchange, and if not I won't worry about it. Either way, I'll post the rig in WAYWT on my wedding day.

btw, didn't mean to threadjack, but it was at least topical


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## TimelesStyle (Aug 25, 2013)

Spin Evans said:


> What you want to wear is perfectly acceptable (though perhaps not optimal) with a suit. I, for one, have vowed not to wear a tuxedo to my wedding. It's partly a reaction to the satin nightmare that is the David's Bridal paint-by-numbers weddings I've attended. It's also partly because I may want to have a little more of my "personality" to show, and black tie simply ain't the right market for that.
> 
> Watch any awards show, and you'll quickly find out that the best dressed men are the ones who_ don't _break the rules. Adding "details" only distracts the viewer from what really matters, and that is the person IN the tuxedo. You don't want to look back at your pictures and cringe that you chose to wear x and y. I'm assuming you've read Put This On's guide to wedding attire?





sean0315 said:


> I did not want to wear a tux either, initially. I have rented too many of those from ill-fitting ones as a groomsmen to hate the idea. But I thought that this blue one, tailored correctly, would be classic but also allow a little of my own style to show, even if i keep it fairly traditional. Full disclosure, I had initially planned to wear seersucker, but thought it wouldnt be formal enough, and when I thought about navy or charcoal suits, my mind jumped to business meetings. However, there were some great suits on suitsupply that I could go with instead of the tux, should I decide I want to insert a bit more personality into my attire.


I also went non-tux and opted for a MTM three-piece, peak lapel suit in a deep blue (a bit lighter and inkier than true navy, which can look almost purple). I thought that if I was going to get something really nice to wear, I'd want it to be something I could wear more frequently than a tux and in Chicago, it's hard to really do a black tie (vs. black tie optional) wedding and I didn't want to be confused with a bartender when my dad, my grandfather and I were the only tuxedos in the room.

OP: if individuality is the goal (and your bride is alright with the idea), you could also look to do a velvet smoking jacket like this (if your size can be found):

https://www.jcrew.com/AST/Navigatio...~~~/22273.jsp?isSaleItem=true&isFromSale=true

However, unless you are known for "getting creative" and it's a part of your personality that people expect then I'd be a bit nervous about doing this for a wedding.


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## TimelesStyle (Aug 25, 2013)

Mike Petrik said:


> Absolutely agree. If I were in the market for a tuxedo I would not buy notch, but if notch was what I owned I would not worry at all about wearing it, especially if all other details were safely traditional.


And I'd worry even less if I were given one as a gift and didn't have to pay for it  !


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

TimelesStyle said:


> And I'd worry even less if I were given one as a gift and didn't have to pay for it  !


Impossible to argue with that!


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

TimelesStyle said:


> And I'd worry even less if I were given one as a gift and didn't have to pay for it  !


this is true, and it actually is really nice and fits really well (especially since I've lost some weight), my only concern with it was notch vs peak.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Whenever we finally put dates down (probably aiming for the 8 year mark), I'm going full-blown GTH needlepoint cummerbund if I end up wearing a tux at all. Ideally, I'll be in seersucker, though. If she's down for some improvisation, go for it. Nobody can require you to follow arbitrary rules if you're the one throwing the party.


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## mayostard (Mar 10, 2013)

MaxBuck said:


> the very well-dressed George Clooney wears notched lapels on his tuxedo.


The only time I've seen Clooney in a notch-lapel dinner jacket he also had pants that were way, way too long and his hair was really messed up. It was obviously his laundry day tux.

He just pulled that out of the hamper like 30 minutes before rolling over to the oscars. Awful.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

mayostard said:


> The only time I've seen Clooney in a notch-lapel dinner jacket he also had pants that were way, way too long and his hair was really messed up. It was obviously his laundry day tux.
> 
> He just pulled that out of the hamper like 30 minutes before rolling over to the oscars. Awful.


his jacket and pants look like different shades of black :crazy:


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## mayostard (Mar 10, 2013)

Basically when clooney is in a relationship he lets it all go. When he's on the prowl he nails it. Since he's currently unattached I'm expecting great things at this year's oscars.


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## TimelesStyle (Aug 25, 2013)

mayostard said:


> The only time I've seen Clooney in a notch-lapel dinner jacket he also had pants that were way, way too long and his hair was really messed up. It was obviously his laundry day tux.
> 
> He just pulled that out of the hamper like 30 minutes before rolling over to the oscars. Awful.


All the worse since it's a two-button jacket (with both buttons buttoned) and appears to be a button-front shirt.

However, part of the issue is that different designers dress stars for the awards, and one has to rely on them to find a good looking outfit and have it fit properly. It could be that the reason he looks so good usually is that a good stylist/outfit is sent, but he doesn't actually care much himself.


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## TimelesStyle (Aug 25, 2013)

mayostard said:


> Basically when clooney is in a relationship he lets it all go. When he's on the prowl he nails it. Since he's currently unattached I'm expecting great things at this year's oscars.


May also depend on whether he's nominated for something or not. Was he in the above/will he be this year?


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

orange fury said:


> Actually, since were on this topic, I wanted to pose a question. Like I said in my earlier post, my tux was a gift and is a black, notch lapel, single button, flat front, slim fit joseph a bank tux with satin lapel facing. My other items are:
> 
> black satin self tie bow tie/cummerbund
> white linen pocket square (tv fold)
> ...


i figured red ill go ahead and resurrect this thread instead of starting a new one. Went to Jos A Bank today and spoke to my friend there, who is willing to make a swap with me. The one I tried on fit great, had peak satin lapels, flat front pants, etc. Only problem: the jacket is a single vent. I'm thinking of going ahead with this, even though I know the single vent is vastly more casual than even double vent. Am I correct that this (compared to peak vs notch lapels) is the lesser of the two evils?


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## Spin Evans (Feb 2, 2013)

orange fury said:


> i figured red ill go ahead and resurrect this thread instead of starting a new one. Went to Jos A Bank today and spoke to my friend there, who is willing to make a swap with me. The one I tried on fit great, had peak satin lapels, flat front pants, etc. Only problem: the jacket is a single vent. I'm thinking of going ahead with this, even though I know the single vent is vastly more casual than even double vent. Am I correct that this (compared to peak vs notch lapels) is the lesser of the two evils?


If lapel type on tuxedos is esoteric knowledge to most people, then the number of vents on a tuxedo must seem downright arcane to them. Don't worry about it, peak lapels will have a much stronger impact on the way you look. Be sure to post pics!


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Haha all valid points, thank you for the response. I'll definitely post pics, probably in the WAYWT thread on my wedding day


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