# Less inappropriate shoe for wear with tuxedo?



## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

I will be attending a black tie event this season, which is highly unusual for me. I will be wearing an old BB tuxedo that I own, but cannot get myself to buy patent leather shoes due to lack of potential utility. Renting plastic shoes is so far out of the question, that I only list it here for the amusement value. I have a choice of wearing black Park Avenues in calf or black Leeds in shell cordovan.

Which do you think will go more unnoticed? I know these are both inappropriate, but is the cap-toe or the double sole and blucher combo more offensive?


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Go with the PA. The blucher/double sole combo is more offensive. Put a good high shine on the PAs, and you'll be fine.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

What Orgetorix said. I wear black BB (by Peal) PA look-alikes for the few black-tie events I attend and send them out for a professional shine (my arm gets tired) beforehand.


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## harvey_birdman (Mar 10, 2008)

Definitely Park Avenues. I think they're fine, not inappropriate at all.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

I've been doing the highly shined AE Park Ave and Leeds, both in black calf, with formal wear thing for years...and have yet to have anyone try to kill and/or eat me, while doing so. LOL. Realizing that they cannot kill or eat you for doing so, takes a lot of the stress out of the transgression!


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I, too, admit to black captoes at standard black tie events; furthermore a crisp point collared white shirt, and I'm not the only one. I noticed, while watching_ Casablanca_ on TCM the other night, that Rick, that paragon of elegance, wears one with his white dinner jacket.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

You guys got money. Why do you do this?


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## Master-Classter (Jan 22, 2009)

got money because they don't spend it all on otherwise useless stuff like patent pumps! 


I think a well polished PA will do just fine.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

Orsini said:


> You guys got money. Why do you do this?


Obsession as an art form?


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Midnight blue formal slippers! Do it! Highly polished PA's seem fine.


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## GFH (Jan 22, 2008)

PA's. Highly Polished.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

You do it as an art form? Facinating! I would never have imagined that.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Orsini, it's kind of the Ducal look (as in your signature). :biggrin2:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Orsini said:


> You do it as an art form? Facinating! I would never have imagined that.


LOL. I do it as a concession to practicality! I seem to average wearing a civilian Tux, perhaps twice per year and my USAF Mess Dress, perhaps two or three times each year (if I am feeling really ambitious!). I just cannot justify maintaining patent leather shoes in my closet, to be worn no more than five times (total) in a years time.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> I do it as a concession to practicality!


While I applaud all endeavors geared toward practicality (excluding buying parts for my Hog :icon_smile_big, I see another reason to wear something like the PAs. To me the act of shining one's shoes is not much different than tying one's bow tie.

We applaud men for not wearing a pre-tied bow tie, but then encourage them to wear a pair of artifically shiny plastic coated shoes. Wearing a pair of self shined shoes and a self tied bow tie just seems to be a more grown up (dang I hate that term) way of dressing.

Although I get lambasted here for saying so, I think that this is all part and parcel of where black tie is today. Society has become much more simplified, for lack of a better word, with regard to attire and black tie is evolving in this same direction. What this means is that things like patent leather shoes, cummerbunds, and pleated shirts have gradually started to look a little costumey to many men with more and more men now wearing plain white dress shirts and no waist covering, not to mention shoes that aren't patent leather.

I realize that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth from purists and traditionalists; but they probably did that back in the late 1800's also when the short tuxedo jacket that we now wear began replacing tails. Like everything else there will aways be two sides, or more, to everything; but if there weren't, how dull would life be? :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

I have a pair of black polished cobbler AE "Belgiums" (U-throat plaintoe oxfords) that look too much like patent leather to wear for anything else that I wear when I wear a Tux. Having said that, I would not hesitate to wear my black PAs with a good shine.

To be honest, IMHO patent leather shoes on men for any reason, be it formal wear, military or police uniform wear--whatever--looks cheesy. A well polished pair of calf skin shoes is much more elegant. I remember working like crazy to put a true spit-shine on my military oxfords and taking a lot of pride in it. When I see guys in the military wearing patent leather it just looks 2nd rate and wrong. I know patent leather with formal wear is traditional and a long-standing practice. Why I don't know. It certainly is the antithesis of well groomed elegance. But that's just me. To the OP--wear your well polished PA's with pride...knowing you didn't just wipe them off with a damp cloth or whatever.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

eagle2250 said:


> LOL. I do it as a concession to practicality! I seem to average wearing a civilian Tux, perhaps twice per year and my USAF Mess Dress, perhaps two or three times each year (if I am feeling really ambitious!). I just cannot justify maintaining patent leather shoes in my closet, to be worn no more than five times (total) in a years time.


Thank you for a thoughtful answer. 

Don't get me wrong: you gentlemen are free to wear what you like with no risk of damage to your karma. 

But because you all know what you are doing, l want to understand why. 

Your reason, which I interpret to be concern regarding cost, is a logical rational and makes perfectly good sense. I can certainly understand your point of view. 

Is there anything in The Air Force uniform that could pass for Copleys? I seem to remember that The Army had a patent leather-sole derby. I wonder if that might be a possibility.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Somewhat agreeing with others, somewhat not: _today_, though wearing patent leather shoes with black tie is theoretically "correct," it comes off as trying too hard. That's not the impression you want to create in social situations, as a general matter. In addition - at least in this situation - it tends to make the wearer look like someone who's never been to a black-tie event before, and is following an instruction manual.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Saltydog said:


> I have a pair of black polished cobbler AE "Belgiums" (U-throat plaintoe oxfords) that look too much like patent leather to wear for anything else that I wear when I wear a Tux. Having said that, I would not hesitate to wear my black PAs with a good shine.
> 
> To be honest, IMHO patent leather shoes on men for any reason, be it formal wear, military or police uniform wear--whatever--looks cheesy. A well polished pair of calf skin shoes is much more elegant. I remember working like crazy to put a true spit-shine on my military oxfords and taking a lot of pride in it. When I see guys in the military wearing patent leather it just looks 2nd rate and wrong. I know patent leather with formal wear is traditional and a long-standing practice. Why I don't know. It certainly is the antithesis of well groomed elegance. But that's just me. To the OP--wear your well polished PA's with pride...knowing you didn't just wipe them off with a damp cloth or whatever.


I think we can call this equivalent functionality/"I got something just as good." 

Things like this are a good substitute for the patent leather-sole plaintoe because the trouser will cover any detail and any wardrobe geeks who notice will appreciate what you are doing and think you quire clever. 

Patent does have a lot of baggage and it is never going to go away! 

Appreciating patent for evening-wear is, for almost all gents not of a patrician background, a re-leaning or reallocation of perceptions and associations built up over a lifetime. 

After a couple of shoving matches, the word of one's enlightenment should get around&#8230;


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## gordgekko (Nov 12, 2004)

This thread is a good example of why one should take anything one reads with a grain of salt.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Starch said:


> Somewhat agreeing with others, somewhat not: _today_, though wearing patent leather shoes with black tie is theoretically "correct," it comes off as trying too hard. That's not the impression you want to create in social situations, as a general matter. In addition - at least in this situation - it tends to make the wearer look like someone who's never been to a black-tie event before, and is following an instruction manual.


Rigid adherence to spec felt to be unsophisticated/"Really, old boy!" This is another logical rational that I can appreciate. 

This can be a very real concern if when dealing with old money, American Brahmin, and others with the sophistication to appreciate the subtleties.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

The Rambler said:


> Orsini, it's kind of the Ducal look (as in your signature). :biggrin2:


This is marvelous! 

Let's call: it the Ducal look/the trendsetter/"I'm above all that - I set the fashion!" 

To possess the stature to intentionally deviate with the objective to change society. Or to have the insouciance to do so and not care anyway. 

Wow!


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Mentioned in this forum before, but there's a famous photo of Cary Grant in black-tie wearing black penny-loafers. He looks terrific. But then, he always did.


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## Timeless Fashion (Apr 12, 2009)

Many members here seem to say that polished PAs can be appropriate without patent leather shoes. Is it becoming more acceptable to wear long ties instead of bowties?


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Timeless Fashion said:


> Many members here seem to say that polished PAs can be appropriate without patent leather shoes. Is it becoming more acceptable to wear long ties instead of bowties?


 Not amongst forum goers, I can assure you that


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Though patent leather is correct according to strict rules, polished PA's (or similar shoes) are Old School, according to an esthetic that can't be bothered with strict rules and that in this forum is called trad. Though tie length and stance has varied with the ages, long ties have been a trendy style, which like all trendiness is now out of fashion except to those who don't know better, that is the antithesis of Old School/trad. Stay with the bowtie. And tie it yourself, one of life's small but gratifying pleasures.


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## Pugin (May 15, 2010)

I wear calf opera pumps and have found the bowed little beauties to be sh*t-kicking shoes with a great deal of GTH charm. Most surprising, though, is how few people notice them. That's because they look perfectly subtle when paired with the outfit. You'd be surprised.

PA's will look okay, sure, but if you care about dressing well, then get some proper formal shoes. Patents are correct, but if you don't care for the leather, get calf pumps. They'll cost about as much as your date spends on her dress, and they'll see much more use. 

Remember that ebay is your friend. Set up a saved search, then watch and wait.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

I picked up a pair of Copleys from AE's outlet recently and got them for a good price, as they were seconds. Prior to that, I wore black cordovan Leeds to a number of black tie events in DC. They were what I had (I wasn't going to wear my military black shoes), but also they were far more comfortable, especially given that formal events in DC tend to be events at which large numbers of people stand around for long periods of time. It seems to me that, from the perspective of the "purist", Leeds (Bluchers/Derbys) have three things going against them: 1). They aren't patent leather; 2). they aren't Balmorals/Oxfords, and so are wide, not narrow, and not "elegant"; and 3). they have the thick sole and reverse welt. On the other hand, Leeds are made of very high quality leather; they are simple and unadorned (no broguing, no cap toe); and they are relatively comfortable. A highly polished pair of Leeds makes more sense than inexpensive pair of patent leather shoes. And, really, who is going to call you on this?


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

While I admire your argument, Pugin, and enjoy seeing opera pumps on the feet of fellow-revelers, wearing them makes me feel like a dork. Don't go kicking any sh*t in them, by the way: they're not really designed for that :biggrin2:


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## Pugin (May 15, 2010)

The Rambler said:


> While I admire your argument, Pugin, and enjoy seeing opera pumps on the feet of fellow-revelers, wearing them makes me feel like a dork. Don't go kicking any sh*t in them, by the way: they're not really designed for that :biggrin2:


Haha ... good advice. I haven't tried it, yet.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

In case someone is looking for high quality (Brooks English) patent leather lace-ups in 9 1/2D, I have some for sale in the Thrift Exchange, in a post graciously done for me by Tweedydon. At https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...C-Informal-Trad-Thrift-Store-Exchange/page457.


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## DFPyne (Mar 2, 2010)

I hate to dredge up this thread but it seems the consensus is that a highly shined AE PA is a good alternative to proper patent shoes. However if one were to buy Patent shoes directly from Allen Edmond, the two models they offer, the Kendall and the Mayfair, are both bluchers. 

I was always under the impression that cap-toes were the appropriate lace-shoe with formal wear but I find it curious that AE dosn't sell anything fitting that bill. 

What gives?


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Actually, the correct shoe for formal wear is a patent plain-toe bal or dress pumps, in calf or patent. Cap toes are acceptable with a tux, but they're really a business shoe and only a second-best substitute.

https://aldenshoe.com/cat_plaza_9373.htm

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...id=522&Product_Id=1065328&default_color=Black


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

I have nothing useful to add but will post anyway. I share the phobia of purchasing or even owning black patent leather shoes-too much like Corfam! 
I wear a pair of spit-shined, leather-soled military, plain toe oxfords, that I would defy you to tell are not patent leather, at least at the distance only moderate alcohol consumption would allow you to see them.
And yes, the pleasure of shining them to that degree is something I cannot explain.

Those bowed slip on BB pumps above would give me a pleasantly decadent feeling, though.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Opera pumps most sublime. 
Patent plain toe leather sole OK. 
Albert slippers some venues. 
Else chaos. 

Call Nate at the shoe bank. Maybe some of those Copleys are left.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

filfoster said:


> I have nothing useful to add but will post anyway. I share the phobia of purchasing or even owning black patent leather shoes-too much like Corfam!
> I wear a pair of spit-shined, leather-soled military, plain toe oxfords, that I would defy you to tell are not patent leather, at least at the distance only moderate alcohol consumption would allow you to see them.
> And yes, the pleasure of shining them to that degree is something I cannot explain.
> 
> Those bowed slip on BB pumps above would give me a pleasantly decadent feeling, though.


Orgetorix has posted pictures of the only two shoes styles accepted by tradition. Although less common, either style in black calf is equally correct. On the other hand, even though they are made in patent leather,and marketed as formal shoes, plain toe bluchers are incorrect.


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

I am glad to know this. My bluchers look enough like the bal to avoid attention and opprobrium.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Factual note:

AE _has_, at times, had a patent-leather bal model or two. Apparently they don't now. Weird.

Less factual note:

Plain-toe calf bal would be preferable to cap-toe. Yes, they exist. They're not technically preferable to patent leather, but I prefer them.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

AE's version of the pump, which had a slight tongue instead of he perfectly oval opening, was called the Ritz. Just in case anybody elects to go searching for a pair. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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