# Defend the counterculture



## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

As a youth I was greatly attracted to many aspects of the counterculture: punk rock, pacifism, anarchism, vegetarianism, etc. Needless to say, I was absolutely insufferable. Now that I am older I look back at the ideas I found so powerful then, and they seem to be garbage. The political thought is little more than paranoia and conspiracy theories, the literature is mostly trash, the music is beneath consideration, and I think we can all agree about the clothing. The whole 'stick it to the man', 'epater le bourgeoisie' attitude strikes me as more of a refusal to grow up than a principled stand against a corrupt society. 
Have I swung too far in the other direction? Is there anyone in our community here who can convince me that the counterculture is valuable and contributes something important to society as a whole?


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Absolutely too far. Lots of punk rock not only still sounds good, compared to the stuff today it sounds like a walk in the park with your sweetheart...

You're right about the rest.


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

I misrepresented myself. I still like some old punk rock.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

I like the clash. I also like Jane Fonda in a freaky kind of way.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

The Republicans are still the bad guys.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> 
> The Republicans are still the bad guys.


Yes they are. Unfortunately, in this country, your only other choice is the Democrats, AKA the worse guys.

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Women thrive on novelty and are easy meat for the commerce of fashion. Men prefer old pipes and torn jackets. 
Anthony Burgess


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gong Tao Jai_
> 
> As a youth I was greatly attracted to many aspects of the counterculture: punk rock, pacifism, anarchism, vegetarianism, etc. Needless to say, I was absolutely insufferable. Now that I am older I look back at the ideas I found so powerful then, and they seem to be garbage. The political thought is little more than paranoia and conspiracy theories, the literature is mostly trash, the music is beneath consideration, and I think we can all agree about the clothing. The whole 'stick it to the man', 'epater le bourgeoisie' attitude strikes me as more of a refusal to grow up than a principled stand against a corrupt society.
> Have I swung too far in the other direction? Is there anyone in our community here who can convince me that the counterculture is valuable and contributes something important to society as a whole?


So how exactly does your counterculture differ from mainstream culture today?

Regards,

Charles

p.s. I'm sorry that your counterculture sucked so much.


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

_So how exactly does your counterculture differ from mainstream culture today?_

A lot of the things that were countercultural twenty years ago are now mainstream on college campuses and among large groups of young people. Also, unfortunately for me, among an awful lot of the population of San Francisco, where I live. This wide dissemination of bad ideas is exactly what disturbs me.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gong Tao Jai_
> 
> _So how exactly does your counterculture differ from mainstream culture today?_
> 
> A lot of the things that were countercultural twenty years ago are now mainstream on college campuses and among large groups of young people. Also, unfortunately for me, among an awful lot of the population of San Francisco, where I live. This wide dissemination of bad ideas is exactly what disturbs me.


Well, without any specifics, it is useless to talk about it.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't understand what you mean by "counterculture." You've identified four items that you deem characteristic of the "counterculture," but at least two of them - a love of punk rock and vegetarianism - are neither "counter" to, nor incompatible with, the prevailing culture in this country. Anarchism and pacifism are certainly not characteristic of American culture - or any other culture, really - but they both have long and honorable traditions, and are not really linked to any particular time and place in U.S. history. If you are just repelled by the enthusiasms of your youth, well that's hardly unusual. I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. In a few more years you may look back on your moshinâ€™, meatless, and pacifist past with more amusement than disdain. Have you "swung too far in the other direction?" Without knowing you one can't say, but that also wouldn't be uncommon. People who strongly embrace a set of ideas often strongly reject them when they become disillusioned: "the god that failed," and all that. Also, has your admiration for the status quo coincided with a rise in your income? This is also fairly common.

However, if by â€œcountercultureâ€ you mean any collection of ideas that diverges from the conventional wisdom of the American mainstream, then thatâ€™s a different kettle of fish. From your post it seems that your disdain for the â€œcounterculture,â€ whatever it may be, is as much aesthetic as ideological. There may be something to that. Since the 1960s much of what passes for â€œprogressivismâ€ has relied far too much on symbolic action and theatrics, rather than organizing, educating, and plain _working_ towards achieving its goals. This has had an altogether baneful effect of political life in this country, and, unfortunately, there are few signs that anything significant will change in the foreseeable future. You mention conspiracy theories: Iâ€™ve read a couple of fairly deranged leftists who contend that the rise of the â€˜60s â€œcountercultureâ€ was actually the work of the forces of reaction in this country in order to discredit progressivism in the eyes of the bourgeoisie. Silly idea, of course; however, there may be a grain of truth in it, as less paranoid commentators, such as David Harvey, have noted. Be that as it may, as Bosthist notes, without more detail from you, it is difficult to continue with the discussion.

"Don't tell me not to live, just sit and putter/Life's candy and the sun's a ball of butter" Barbara Streisand


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## Sir Henry Billingsgate (Dec 14, 2005)

It's not a question of "counterculture - good / mainstream culture - bad" or the reverse. (However these are defined.)

However we might resolve this, good counterculture is better than bad mainstream - and the reverse.

Also, some individuals might be better suited for one than the other. Probably, the younger one is the more counterculture one can or even should be.

St. Paul and St. Augustine, with their distinction between the letter and the spirit - actually are helpful here. It's not the external form of what you are doing but rather the inner spirit. You and I could do the same thing, yet one be right while the other wrong. Everyday experience confirms this. We all know fellows who can pull things off that others can't.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Sir Henry Billingsgate_
> 
> It's not a question of "counterculture - good / mainstream culture - bad" or the reverse. (However these are defined.)


It wasn't clear to me what Gong Tao Jai was asking, which is why I asked my initial question. I now understand he is arguing that counterculture of twenty years ago is bad and present day mainstream culture is bad because it has incorporated "bad ideas" from the counterculture. Without examples however, I'm left to think his counterculture consisted of Billy Idol, Bret Easton Ellis, and brown rice, all consumed while wearing army surplus, but in a, you know, ironic way.

A playlist (partial) for helping think about this question:

The Beach Boys "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" from Pet Sounds

The Clash "Death of Glory" from London Calling

The Kinks "Do You Remember Walter?" from the Kinks are the Village Green Preservation Society

Regards,

Charles


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
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I'd add "I Wanna Destroy You" by the Soft Boys; "Girlfren" by the Modern Lovers; "I Can't Hardly Wait" by the Replacements.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gong Tao Jai_
> Also, unfortunately for me, among an awful lot of the population of San Francisco, where I live. This wide dissemination of bad ideas is exactly what disturbs me.


I've seen pictures from rallies and marches around San Francisco and I think I know what you mean.

One group will be protesting a cause (poverty in the US), and tons of other ppl will show up to protest something different (war for oil, plight of the innocent palestinians, castro is right, etc). Evidently so they can be seen and all thier friends will know how cool they are.

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Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> ...One group will be protesting a cause (poverty in the US), and tons of other ppl will show up to protest something different (war for oil, plight of the innocent palestinians, castro is right, etc). Evidently so they can be seen and all thier friends will know how cool they are...


That's a function of the media hyping everything to death, "making mountains out of molehills", etc. Courting media 'air time' is not just a counterculture strategy, it should be remembered.

DD


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

"Who's to say what's counterculture and what's not? It's all relative. It all depends on perspective. What used to be counterculture is now mainstream."

Hrmph. Spoken like a true hippy.

Counterculture is: Free love, recreational drugs, rock and roll. Protest marches. If it feels good, do it. Tune in, turn on, and drop out. Sticking it to The Man. Hippy clothing. Long hair. Water beds, lava lites, and shag rugs. Fascination with Eastern and third world culture and religion coupled with disdain for the mainstream Western culture in which one grew up. Embracing Marxism or Socialism. Anti-militarism. Irrational and reflex abhorrence of Republicans. Eroding hard definitions and values in favor of subjective standards.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Counterculture is: Free love, recreational drugs, rock and roll. Protest marches. If it feels good, do it. Tune in, turn on, and drop out. Sticking it to The Man. Hippy clothing. Long hair. Water beds, lava lites, and shag rugs. Fascination with Eastern and third world culture and religion coupled with disdain for the mainstream Western culture in which one grew up. Embracing Marxism or Socialism. Anti-militarism. Irrational and reflex abhorrence of Republicans. Eroding hard definitions and values in favor of subjective standards.


Sounds like the place I just spent the last 4 years at. That's really the best description of college I've read lately!


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

I was going to cite Burning Man as the perfect example of the counterculture I'm referring to,but Rojo has summed it up pretty well.

Bosthist, examples of what I was interested in as a teenager: Crass, Flux of Pink Indians, Emma Goldman, William S. Burroughs, radical feminism, hippie communes, the Situationists, Woody Guthrie, urban squatters, U.S out of El Savador, Robert Crumb, the Diggers, and so on. 

Sir Henry, you are correct that good counterculture is better than bad mainstream (and I think most mainstream is pretty bad) but my complaint is that the counterculture is so contemptuous of the mainstream without actually being any better.

Yckmwia, I have no particular admiration for the status quo, I am just disappointed with the alternative. The gradual shedding of my old values preceded by many years (and was the cause of) my increased income.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
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The bottom picture is why I wish I'd gone to Hampton-Sydney, UVA, anywhere where that sort of thing is at a minimum.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> The bottom picture is why I wish I'd gone to Hampton-Sydney, UVA, anywhere where that sort of thing is at a minimum.


Of course. You wouldn't want to be exposed to different beliefs -- maybe even try a few on for size -- during your formative years, would you? At a college, of all places. Heavens no! In fact, the colleges ought to throw out all those Commie courses and refuse to admit anyone who refuses to sign a loyalty oath or comes from a culture or background different from yours.

Kiddo, health willing you will have half your life to be an uptight, crabby, pompous old man. Why start so young?


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

crs, when I was in college G. Gordon Liddy came to speak and there were vigorous protests. Same thing when the CIA recruiters were giving a presentation. I thought to myself, "Y'all wouldn't want to be exposed to different beliefs during your formative years, would you? At a college, of all places." 

The Birkenstocks and No-Blood-For-Oil crowd is especially adept at stifling free speech on campus. Ann Coulter and other conservative speakers are routinely shouted down and hit with pies by these people. Ann Coulter might well ask, "You wouldn't want to be exposed to different beliefs during your formative years, would you? At a college, of all places."


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> crs, when I was in college G. Gordon Liddy came to speak and there were vigorous protests. Same thing when the CIA recruiters were giving a presentation. I thought to myself, "Y'all wouldn't want to be exposed to different beliefs during your formative years, would you? At a college, of all places."
> 
> The Birkenstocks and No-Blood-For-Oil crowd is especially adept at stifling free speech on campus. Ann Coulter and other conservative speakers are routinely shouted down and hit with pies by these people. Ann Coulter might well ask, "You wouldn't want to be exposed to different beliefs during your formative years, would you? At a college, of all places."


Well, point taken. I read Liddy's first book in the early 1980s -- the one in which he described roasting and eating a rat. I didn't turn into a Republican or try to imitate his culinary tastes, but I was interested in reading what he had to say.

I actually do listen to Limbaugh sometimes when I know he's going to go off the deep end about something in the news.

Tuning out other viewpoints is intellectually bankrupt when either side does it.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> crs, when I was in college G. Gordon Liddy came to speak and there were vigorous protests. Same thing when the CIA recruiters were giving a presentation. I thought to myself, "Y'all wouldn't want to be exposed to different beliefs during your formative years, would you? At a college, of all places."
> 
> The Birkenstocks and No-Blood-For-Oil crowd is especially adept at stifling free speech on campus. Ann Coulter and other conservative speakers are routinely shouted down and hit with pies by these people. Ann Coulter might well ask, "You wouldn't want to be exposed to different beliefs during your formative years, would you? At a college, of all places."


Routinely? How many times has Ann Coulter been hit with a pie? Two attempts, with one being successful, if I recall. How many times have other conservative speakers been hit with pies? Poor, poor conservatives. Always the victims.

And just for the record, Ann Coulter's speech isn't free. Student activity money is being spent on her speaking fee. She doesn't just speak out of the goodness of her heart. I'd be little pissed off too if my school were paying thousands of dollars to allow her to dispense her pearls of wisdom about subjects like Muslim extremism: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

bosthist, you're right: routinely shouted down, but only sometimes hit with pies.

But your reference to student activity fees is exactly my point. G. Gordon Liddy came to campus and there was an uproar from the "Save the Whales and No Contra Aid" crowd because student activity fees were going to a Conservative. Another year, Abbie Hoffman came to campus and there was an uproar from the College Republicans because student activity fees were going to a Liberal.

I thought they should all pipe down and go listen to some opposing views. Isn't that why they're at a liberal arts college in the first place?


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
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I think that would be awesome. One campus, entirely counterculture free. With a dress code. Paradise. A damn sight better than having every single class loaded with Marxist innuendo.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Patrick Guerrero, president of the Log Cabin Republicans, was pied at my school.

Ann Coulter was just verbally abused but she gave better than she recieved. 

David Horowitz's speech was interupted and/or shouted down.

That was just in the time I was there. It has become a trend of late though. Pat Buchannon, Ann, Bill Kristol, Horowitz and others have all been hit with sticky foods at other schools.


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## Gong Tao Jai (Jul 7, 2005)

San Francisco mayor (and Brioni and borsalino wearer) Willie Brown was hit with a pie by a group of assailants during a speech. When they appeared in court they seemed to think that they had merely been exercising their right to free speech, and wouldn't concede any wrongdoing.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gong Tao Jai_
> 
> San Francisco mayor (and Brioni and borsalino wearer) Willie Brown was hit with a pie by a group of *assailants* during a speech. When they appeared in court they seemed to think that they had merely been exercising their right to free speech, and wouldn't concede any wrongdoing.


One of the points of pieing someone is the use of something soft and gooy that couldn't be construed as a weapon. I seem to recall that Willy was so upset that he insisted on pressing charges, unlike a number of other political and business persons who behaved much better, and laughed off or licked off the pie and continued with whatever it was they were up to when the pie brigade struck.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
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The Soft Boys and one of my favorite tracks from VGPS mentioned in the same post! I'm feeling strangely in my element.

If nothing else, a lot of countercultural stuff (the comix, the movies, the sex, drugs, and rock and roll-related stuff) is a lot of fun, and thus valuable.

The clothes are dreadful, though.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gurdon_
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If I were hit by a pie I'd be pretty mad, especially if I were wearing professional clothes as most of these speakers were. Much less Brioni, Oxxford, etc.

Civilized people tend not to throw _anything_ at someone when they say something you disagree with. Even in the vice presidential debate, Cheney never threw anything at Edwards although he acted like he wanted to. A better tactic would be to ask them why they claim that or how do they support that conclusion.

Oh wait, I made a judgement of someone thru the skewed ethno-cultural oppressing lense of the mainstream instead of a subjective standard!


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> Oh wait, I made a judgement of someone thru the skewed ethno-cultural oppressing lense of the mainstream instead of a subjective standard!


That's a no-no, man. Whoops, darn, did it myself. Stop me before I judge again!


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## n/a (Sep 4, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

bosthist, are you saying that shouting down an invited speaker is an appropriate way to lodge a complaint about the use of student activity fees? Wouldn't it be better to write a letter to the school paper, circulate a petition, or complain to whatever committee appropriates the fees? Shouting down a speaker or disrupting a presentation implies a lack of respect for free speech, which is something those on the Left not only claim to hold dear but say is under assault from the _Right_.

Gurdon, if someone were to splash a little old lady's fur coat with red paint, would that qualify as an attack or assault even though paint is not normally construed as a weapon? Better yet, find your local chapter of Hell's Angels and splash their leather jackets and chaps with red paint to make a point about wearing animal skins. Then explain to said bikers that you have used something soft and watery that cannot be construed as a weapon, and that you hope they will behave well, laugh off the paint, and carry on as they were.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> "Who's to say what's counterculture and what's not? It's all relative. It all depends on perspective. What used to be counterculture is now mainstream."
> 
> ...


Reminds me of my college days, where I onced chased down a woman for posting a sign outside the business school that said simply "US soldiers are the real terrorists" a week after 9/11. I asked her why she would post something so vitriol and she quipped some garbled message about how I was a fascist for questioning and ran away.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

But it's so hip and edgy - - - -


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

So much of what I thought was the counterculture of the 60s has become the culture of the present day, I find it difficult to make any sense of the topic. Someone has to define some terms, at some point.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> bosthist, are you saying that shouting down an invited speaker is an appropriate way to lodge a complaint about the use of student activity fees? Wouldn't it be better to write a letter to the school paper, circulate a petition, or complain to whatever committee appropriates the fees? Shouting down a speaker or disrupting a presentation implies a lack of respect for free speech, which is something those on the Left not only claim to hold dear but say is under assault from the _Right_.


Did I say that it was appropriate? No. Did I imply that it was appropriate to shout someone down? No. Did I say that I would be a little pissed off if my student money was being used to pay someone like Ann Coulter? Yes. My meaning was clear. I fail to see how you were confused by what I wrote, unless your confusion was simply a pretext to throw in another jab at the "Left".


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> Did I imply that it was appropriate to shout someone down? No. Did I say that I would be a little pissed off if my student money was being used to pay someone like Ann Coulter? Yes.


Not quite. You said that you would be a little pissed off _too_. That last little word could be read to imply that you are comparing yourself to, or agreeing with, those who shout her down. I don't know who you are and I don't know what you do when you're a little pissed off, so I thought it was perfectly reasonable to ask.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
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Then ask without your gratuitous little snipe, which is perfectly unreasonable, and not germane.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Somewhere in between the two extremes.

Davidson College, can't find a date for it but Davidson went co-ed in 1972 and there are a lot of women in the photo. I just moved and now live about 4 minutes from Davidson. Nice place, nice school. 





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Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Mizz Coulter is fairly annoying, but she has good legs. In a perfect world, this would mitigate.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Patrick06790_
> 
> Mizz Coulter is fairly annoying, but she has good legs. In a perfect world, this would mitigate.


Ann Coulter has long legs; but "good"?

"Cross-legged under an umbrel umbershoot, he thrones an Aztec logos"


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Youch!!!

I've always thought she thinks of herself as prettier than she is. 

Maybe someone will glue a mirror to the bottom of a pool and put her out of her misery.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Ack!!!

Put those things away.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Republicans just aren't sexy. That's why they want to ruin other people's fun, unless there is intent to breed.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
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Oh, my goodness. I stand corrected. She looks ill.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> 
> Republicans just aren't sexy. That's why they want to ruin other people's fun, unless there is intent to breed.


You've obviously never seen Bush's daughters.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Maybe she deserves a pie in the face for showing those legs in public!


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
> 
> Republicans just aren't sexy. That's why they want to ruin other people's fun, unless there is intent to breed.


Spend sometime on any campus in the SEC, all of which are chock full of Republican woman and then re-examine this statement.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
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There is a difference between sexy and good physical features. After listening to the Bush girls ... ummm ... speak during the Republican Convention, I think I would need a triple dose of Viagra to accomplish that mission.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
> Spend sometime on any campus in the SEC, all of which are chock full of Republican woman and then re-examine this statement.


My wife went to an SEC school. They're not all Republicans.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Point is, your assertion is baseless. There are plenty of Republican women that are plenty hot and plenty fun.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
> 
> Point is, your assertion is baseless. There are plenty of Republican woman that are plenty hot and plenty fun.


Amen.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Yeah? Name one.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
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Roll, Tide. My word. The only school that can compete with 'SC - in that respect.

"Cross-legged under an umbrel umbershoot, he thrones an Aztec logos"


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
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I'd prefer "get em dawgs" in reference to my alma mater and the plethora of hot women, left and right.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> So much of what I thought was the counterculture of the 60s has become the culture of the present day, I find it difficult to make any sense of the topic. Someone has to define some terms, at some point.


hear hear


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## John S (Jan 11, 2006)

I don't pretend to have the answer to your questions, but consider this, from Winston Churchill: "Any man who is not a liberal when he is 20 has no heart and any man who is not a conservative when he is 40 has no brain." He said this, of course, long before the 1960s and long before the word "counterculture" was invented. 

I share many of your views on the current counterculture, despite having been a crusading and fairly radical lawyer during the 1960s. (The only true, meaningful and "relevant" counterculture was the one we lived through in the '60s, right?) 

Having entered my own "60s" (as in age), I don't consider myself to be the conservative Churchill predicted a young liberal would become, but my daughters, now both in their early '20s (and hoping to change the world) are convinced I have. (How can this be, I ask them. Although I now head a private law firm, I still do some pro bono work and take an occasional case for the ACLU. My daughters are not persuaded.)

Have YOU swung too far in the "other direction"? I don't know. What I do know is that wherever you now stand (or sit) along the cultural/political spectrum, you have lots of company and a great deal of insight. 
-John S


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by John S_
> 
> I don't pretend to have the answer to your questions, but consider this, from Winston Churchill: "Any man who is not a liberal when he is 20 has no heart and any man who is not a conservative when he is 40 has no brain." He said this, of course, long before the 1960s and long before the word "counterculture" was invented.


Of course, it would have been extremely convenient for Sir Winston to hold and express such an opinion, as he famously jumped the declining Liberals for the rising Conservatives in middle age, after famously jumping the declining Conservatives for the rising Liberals in his youth. (Throughout his long career, Churchill had one overriding passion and cause: Winston Churchill.) However, this celebrated maxim is apparently spurious:

https://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=112

Much more useful are the words attributed to Churchill at the time of his mid-life change of parties: â€œAnyone can rat, but it takes a certain ingenuity to re-rat.â€ Now, _those_ are words to live by. Cheers.

"Cross-legged under an umbrel umbershoot, he thrones an Aztec logos"


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by CRS_
> 
> Yeah? Name one


My wife


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

I think it would be much tougher to defend the mainstream. 

(BTW, I do not think of the participants in this forum, with the possible exception of Coolidge, to be mainstream, whatever their politics.)

For the record,I lived in the Haight during the summer of 1967, graduated from Berkeley in 1968, and lived about 15 miles from the original Woodstock concert. (I declined to attend as it was too commercial, and I didn't much like the music.)

Regards,
Fellow Worker Gurdon, well dressed and well armed


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Gurdon_
> 
> I think it would be much tougher to defend the mainstream.
> 
> (BTW, I do not think of the participants in this forum, with the possible exception of Coolidge, to be mainstream, whatever their politics.)


Hardly mainstream. More upstream.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
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This definition from Wikipedia does nicely: "In sociology, counterculture is a term used to describe a cultural group whose values and norms are at odds with those of the social mainstream, a cultural equivalent of a political opposition. In casual practice, the term came to prominence in the general press as it was used to refer to the youth rebellion that swept North America and Western Europe in the 1960s and early 1970s."

That youth rebellion was characterized by, among other things: Free love, recreational drugs, rock and roll. Protest marches. If it feels good, do it. Turn on, tune in, drop out. Sticking it to The Man. Hippy clothing. Long hair. Water beds, lava lites, and shag rugs. Opposition to the Establishment. Fascination with Eastern and third world culture and religion coupled with disdain for the mainstream Western culture in which one grew up. Embracing Marxism or Socialism. Anti-militarism. Irrational and reflex abhorrence of Republicans. Eroding hard definitions and values in favor of subjective standards. Let it all hang out. Do your own thing.

And, as several fairly recent college graduates have stated, these characteristics of the 1960s and early 1970s youth rebellion are still present on college campuses, where they have been preserved in a remarkable time capsule for more than 30 years.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
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So, then, are we to assume that â€œmainstreamâ€ culture is characterized by: â€œunfree loveâ€; prescription-only drug use; no rock and roll; no protest marches; if it feels good donâ€™t do it; turn off, tune out, drop in; let The Man stick it to you; un-hippy clothing; short hair, spring mattresses, Berber carpets, acceptance of The Establishmentâ€™; indifference to Eastern and Third World culture and religion, coupled with fascination for Western culture; rejection of Marxism or Socialism; militarism; irrational and reflexive love of Republicans; erosion of subjective standards in favor of hard definitions and values; keeping it all in; and doing someone elseâ€™s thing? (I donâ€™t know where lava â€œlitesâ€ (lamps?) fit in either of these catalogs.)

You can have either, or both, of these cartoon â€œculturesâ€ . . .

"Cross-legged under an umbrel umbershoot, he thrones an Aztec logos"


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Uh, yeah. Pretty much.

Edit: Lava-Simplex Internationale produces what it calls Lava Lites. "Lava lamp" is a colloquialism introduced by free-wheeling, subjective-standard hippies.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
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> Uh, yeah. Pretty much.
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> Edit: Lava-Simplex Internationale produces what it calls Lava Lites. "Lava lamp" is a colloquialism introduced by free-wheeling, subjective-standard hippies.


According to Haggerty Enterprises d/b/a LavaÂ® World International, neither Lava Lamp nor Lava Lite is the correct nomenclature: LAVAÂ® brand motion lamp is preferred:

Rather unwieldy if you ask me. Apparently the original, uh, lamp was invented by a pioneering British pornographer and named the Astro Lamp:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A641224

It is still available today, made in the original Dorset factory (I guess some commodities just can't be outsourced):

.

Nevertheless, if in, say, 1970, an unfortunate fellow had been heard saying something like: "hand me the bong, it's over by the Lava Lite," . . . well, the room would have cleared in a heartbeat, as he would have revealed himself to be a closeted Nixon supporter, if not a narc.

And, really: I thought I'd never see the day when a trad man would prefer the use of "lite" to "lamp," in any context. Standards are clearly declining across the board. Cheers.

"Cross-legged under an umbrel umbershoot, he thrones an Aztec logos"


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> This definition from Wikipedia does nicely


Why would someone with your education use Wikipedia? There is no standard of truth or scholarly accuracy there, much less objectivity. "Irrational abhorrence of Republicans" is certainly a matter of opinion, no matter where you stand politically. But don't worry, eventually someone will change that Wikipedia entry because anyone with an agenda can do that -- expertise on the subject is not required.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by crs_
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Because I don't take this thread all that seriously. People were asking for a definition of terms. I found a definition that agrees with what I mean when I say counterculture.


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