# Kwanzaa... Its history?



## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

I know there are several who are going to attack this strictly because Ann Coulter wrote it but I wanted to ask a few questions about this. Is this really the history of Kwanzaa? I was not alive during the 60s and was very young in the 70s so a lot of this history was before my time. I am also slightly handicapped by the sanitized versions of American History I was taught in school. Avoiding discussion about Ann's opinions what, if any, of the historical references are true?


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

Her outline is basically correct about the founder of Kwanzaa. I'm not sure about the SLA references. The question then becomes should the history of the creator of Kwanzaa then invalidate the aims of the holiday?


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

For what it's worth, none of my black friends -- most of whom are well-educated, none of whom is an "Uncle Tom" -- celebrates Kwanzaa, though a few of my white acquaintances do. The latter, nice and agreeable persons, also tend toward "benevolent racism".


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

I didn't hear about Kwanzaa until a few years ago. I work in a fairly large corporation and at this time of year one hears alot about Christmas, very little about Hanukah, and nothing about Solstice or Kwanzaa. I have friends who celebrate Christmas, Hanukah, and a few even celebrate Solstice. I'm beginning to think that there really isn't anyone who celebrates Kwanzaa. OK so I admit I live in the great fly-over midwest, perhaps some of you East/West coast guys can help out.


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

If you have access to back issues of Harper's, the following article is a good, level-headed critique of Kwanzaa, IMHO: 

Gerald Early. "Dreaming of a Black Christmas: Kwanzaa bestows the gifts of therapy." Harper's Magazine, January 1997, pp. 55-61.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

Sounds about right to me, too. As for the SLA thing, see https://ocrscans.homestead.com/screed1.html, screed 3. It's a few pages into the document, but it names the seven cobra heads the same as the seven Kwanza principles.

rws - In the interest being diplomatic, I will ask you to define "Uncle Tom" as you intended it before I get angry.

mpcsb - I've never heard of anyone celebrating Kwanza. I think it exists purely in the minds of white liberals who feel guilty about their own racist thoughts.

CT


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

a few totally seperate things:

1. there is a tendancy to suggest that because a person took money from a government agency that everything that he ever did was at the instigation of that agency. these are seperate issues - the man may have been an informant, and he may have been a founder of the holiday. there is no logical inferance that the FBI was involved in the creation of the holiday. a hell of a lot of people, who have taken money from different intellegence agencies, have done a lot of things that have nothing to do with those agencies.

2. I only know one family that celebrated Kwaanza. they also gave swahili names to their kids, and want to home school their kids.

3. I think that kwaanza is a very cool idea - it seems to me, as a white middle class middle aged guy with only a few African American friends (and I say that as an indication that very possibly my opinion on this matter is worthless), that a lot of African Americans could use a strong and healthy cultural identity to tie themselves too. there was an article in the NYT yesterday about ghana trying to develop the whole diaspora tourism angle with African Americans, and I think that that is a great thing. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/27/i...ca/27ghana.html
it seems that a lot of African Americans have been developing a quasi african culture, and that exposure to some of the rich cultures of african would give them great feeling for their roots.

4. this is my favorite kwaanza story - I was talking to my just turned 4 son about holidays. he identified his friends who celebrate hanuka, and his friends who celebrate christmas. he asked me who celebrated kwaanza. I thought, and said maybe and named 3 of his friends who I know are african american. he thought for a while and tried to figure out the pattern, and then said "you mean kids who were in my class last year, and are in a different class this year celebrate kwaanza?" it was too alien for him to concieve that somebody with a slightly different skin shade would have a different holiday. I thought that that was very cool.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

Kwanzaa is another manifestation of the desire to create a pan-national black African identity, an effort that is fairly constant in American history. One need only look at Marcus Garvey, for example, to see many of the same ideas which inform the celebration of Kwanzaa. One would imagine that Ann Coulter would prefer a holiday inspired by the beliefs of Booker T. Washington than those of people like Marcus Garvey. One can only imagine how Ann Coulter would describe the founder of the Mormon religion, or the liberal Massachusetts Unitarians who popularized the Christmas tree in this country.

Chubby Tiger's assertion that Kwanzaa "exists purely in the minds of white liberals who feel guilty about their own racist thoughts" is completely preposterous and demeaning to those people who do derive some spiritual and emotional satisfaction from Kwanzaa.

Regards,

Charles


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

How old is Anne Coulter anyway? Her play on Tom Hank's best generation insult to my peers is hardly endearing.It's curious, Kwanzaa's beginnings aside how hostile any black attempt at identity is treated. Eubonics may be a bad idea. But so is the 'spanglish' of an east los Angleles latino who aspires to anything beyond washing cars while a dashiki is no less silly than the ethnic explosion of green mold on Saint Patrick's day. Perhaps if we gave serious effort and honour to our black american heroes instead of the all but useless 'black studies' of my High school days young people would have a connection, if not with the mother continent of all humanity, but this one. Let me give a few examples I dare say few know about. Everyone knows, by way of the movie about the Tuskeegee airmen. Has anyone heard of Eugene Jaques Bullard, 'the Black Swallow of Death?' Anyone care to name a famous Revenue Cutter skipper of Alaska fame, probably the most colourfull coloured captain in Coast Guard history ( we were integrated before our seperate services were!)Even the inventor of cowboy rodeo bulldogging was slowly metamorphosed onscreen from a mexican vaquero to a lily white buckaroo in a series of all but forgotten B westerns. Finally, the greatest irony are the two industries benefiting from Kwanzaa; candles and greeting cards. How many black americans own candle works or printing shops and receive patronage for this observance


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

I won't read an article by the doofus Coulter. My own understanding is that Kwaanza was sort of invented in the late 1960s in the US in imitation of some African solstice ritual. My undertsanding of Christmas, for what it is worth, is that it replaced a winter solstice pagan celebration. whatever.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

> quote:bothist - Chubby Tiger's assertion that Kwanzaa "exists purely in the minds of white liberals who feel guilty about their own racist thoughts" is completely preposterous and demeaning to those people who do derive some spiritual and emotional satisfaction from Kwanzaa.


Fair enough. I suppose that my comment was a bit more strident than intended. What I meant, and more-or-less believe, is that the pseudo-Africanization of American blacks, Kwanza included, is largley the product of whites constantly telling them that their culture as Americans is subpar because it is somehow associated with slavery. Thus they need to invent 'African' holidays, make up 'African' names for their children, and refuse thier members the luxury of free thought.

There is no African culture nor African holidays any more than there is a European culture or Asian culture. There are many (I don't feel like counting) countries in Africa, all with different cultures and values. I'm sure that certain things are shared, in the same way that Naples and Stockholm share some things, but not many. If you tell me that you celebrate the Kenyan holiday of (insert Swahili word here) because your grandparents did, that's great and I'd love to learn about it. If you try to make up some panAfrican mumbo-jumbo, I'll think you're a freak. It is my contention that is mostly whites who have encouraged blacks to 'find their Africanness' or something, rather than just encouraging them to do whatever the hell they want becuase they're Americans and allowed to do just that. Those who stray from the official black talking points are branded 'Uncle Toms' by other blacks and by the media in an attempt to keep the entire race under the control of some strange cabal of wackos (Jackson, Farakhan, and Sharpton come to mind). I don't care if you like Condi Rice's politics, but calling her a traitor to her people is totally absurd. Her 'people' are the Americans and she has served us well. Ditto Clarence Thomas. How has he betrayed the USA (again, politics aside)? How are they different from Harold Ford and Barak Obama, neither of whom are called Uncle Toms?

I honestly believe that globetrotters son (that was a great story, btw) has the right idea and that we should encourage true color blindness. That means that both whites _and blacks_ need to forget about color and just get on with it. I don't really think that either side has make a good job of it. Maybe the kids like globetrotter-jr will manage it, if they're not corrupted by those who can't seem to look past melanin levels.

CT

Edit: Spelling correction.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

As far as I have always understood, the holiday was invented by Ron (now Maulana) Karenga in the 1960s. I don't anything about his being an FBI stooge, although I have heard the claim for many years that police agencies fostered an internecine war between US and the Panthers.

In my favorite comic strip, "The Boondocks," a year or two ago Huey remarks to his friend Caesar, "This year I have decided to forgo the greed and materialism of Christmas in favor of celebrating the African-American festival of Kwanzaa." Caesar replies, "You're the only person I know who could say that with a straight face." Huey said, "It was hard, but I managed."

I once heard Ron Karenga harranguing an almost entirely African-American crowd at UCLA during my student days. He said, "And I say that the government should appropriate 5 billion dollars a year to settle a million black people back in Africa!" [Remember that a dollar went a lot further 40 years ago.] I was more reactionary back then. Karenga's plan sounded good to me, and so I cheered lustily. Most of the blacks glowered at me, but the matter went no further. I was much younger, stronger, bolder and more imprudent back then.

These days I am more politically eclectic. Commenting on a certain highly divisive contemporary issue (which I won't specify), I remarked to one of my best friends, a professor of political science, "I never thought Maulana Karenga and I would be in the same corner on a political matter, but it's happened." The prof (a dean these days, I think) asked, "Is that Ron Karenga's daughter?" "No, you damn fool," I retorted, "It's Ron Karenga himself. He changed his name."


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)




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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Friend of mine insisted on hyphenating her maiden and husband's names. Aside from Hermione Chapman- Shimazu sounding rediculous I had to explain the custom arose to denote royal b-----ds in Europe. Everybody is doing all manner of dumb neo tribal things to find an identity, from midlife crisis instant bikers ( just add motor oil, stir,and set in refrigerator for 2 hours) to born again pagans and civil war reenactors, Klingon mariage ceremonies and the kid next door who tried to impress me metamorphosing from greatfull deadhead last week to full on rainbow coloured mohawk and punker regalia this. Between urban legends, conspiracy theories from JFK to Roswell and Global Warming, Kwanzaa is way down on my list of concerns" As long as they don't frighten the horses' and all that.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

my next door neighbors, very nice older white prespeterian anglo saxons with at least 6 years of college each, have 3 children - one converted to become hassidic and has 13 children, one is lesbian and lives in nyc, one is an african drumming teacher and married a hatian woman of african descent. for better or for worse, all of their kids abandoned the parents culture to find someting else. it happens a lot these days.

my roots are not terribly interesting - one of my grandparents family has been in the area that is the US since the mayflower, and served in a variety of interesting positions. one branch came to the US in the 1820's as an indentured servant and served as on officer on Grant's staff, and didn't do much of interest since then. the other two branches were small merchants in poland until they came to north america 70 years ago. I am sure that they were all nice enough, hard working people, but aside from a few individuals, not too interesting. 

but, and here is the important part, I am in a position to know my background, my culture, and to pick and chose what I want to take pride in. 


I think that one of the most horrible parts of the atlantic slave trade was that you have millions of African Americans who do not have this option - they have no idea where they came from or what they culture is. and, whithout any direction, they flounder and they make up fake cultures, like this whole psudo-african thing. 

I remember sitting in a club in Lagos, Nigeria, with a Nigerian friend and some friends of his, and really enjoying the culture, the music, the food, the attitudes, and feeling what a damn shame it was that this couldn't be shared by African Americans. 

AS CT said - there are a huge number of cultures in AFrica, and some of them are very buetiful. it is a shame that not more African Americans can't find a way to learn about them and share them.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
> . . . . Those who stray from the official black talking points are branded 'Uncle Toms' by other blacks and by the media in an attempt to keep the entire race under the control of some strange cabal of wackos (Jackson, Farakhan, and Sharpton come to mind). I don't care if you like Condi Rice's politics, but calling her a traitor to her people is totally absurd. Her 'people' are the Americans and she has served us well. . . . *oth whites and blacks need to forget about color and just get on with it. . . .*


*This may be the most satisfying posting I've read in my many months on AAAC. At times I can scarcely believe that the racism I thought banished from American government when I was a child still exists, fifty years later. When will people learn that race, though interesting, is unimportant in comparison to the blessed variety of individual personality and character?*


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> 
> a few totally seperate things:
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"...African Americans could use a strong and healthy cultural identity to tie themselves too."

Rather condecending, dont you think.

Whats wrong with identifying with being American and Christian? As most have been for many generations.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

I believe Kwanza was invented by African Americans, not white people.

Africa has hundreds of distinct cultural groups. African nations are relics of European colonialism.

Inventing Kwanza fairly recently (40 years ago) is IMHO no more or less artificial than the fairly recent invention of Thanksgiving or of Christmas as it is currently observed here and in Japan.

As to "[w]hat's wrong with identifying with being American and Christian[,]" that's definitely a topic for the interchange.

Happy New Year, of the common era, to all. Do not neglect the opportunity afforded by New Year's Eve, to dress up and have a good time.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Horace (Jan 7, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> When will people learn that race, though interesting, is unimportant in comparison to the blessed variety of individual personality and character?


I used to believe what you've written above until I realized that race was important -- if not in and of itself -- then only because of those ways in which it has been thought about and propagated (to lapse into lefty New York Review of Books speech -- "its discourse"). So, you know, what you right might be true -- that individuality and "character" are more important than "race", but that wouldn't seem to be the case from the way people treat others or are treated by them. As for when people will "learn" -- I don't think they ever will. Despite capitalism's best efforts, the most important color ain't green.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
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possibly condesending, I don't know. and, yes, I see nothing wrong, myself, with identifying with being american and christian. but it appears not to be giving the answer that is needed. As I wrote in my post, my cultural heritage isn't very important to me, but the fact that I know mine, and have facts available to me, and was raised with it, has allowed me to not take it so seriosly and to get on with my life and not worry so much about it.

For what ever reason, one of the biggest problems in America is a problem that could be discribed as a cultural identity problem with African Americans - a hell of a lot of African American families do not function well, and a hell of a lot of young African Americans are gettign into trouble. I do not mean to state this as a racist comment, but as a fact - one simply has to look at the statistics of children born out of wedlock and of the prison population.

To some extent, I think that this is a direct result of a lack of strong cultural identity, and I am sure that the only solution to this problem will be cultural.


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## Vecsus (Aug 27, 2005)

I find kwanza to be absurd...I won't even give it the dignity of capitalizing it. It's a purely invented holiday intended to give a specific demographic a holiday of their own. They intentionally chose to hold it in December to force a confrontation with Christmas and Hanukkah. 

As someone else pointed out, kwanza is based on the same concept as the invented "African" names that people give their children. If you want to pick an original name for your child, that's great. But don't justify it by trying to attach some great African heritage. 

People need to be proud of who they are as individuals. They should not build their sense of identity and self-worth on an amalgamation of history, whether fact or fiction. This goes for any race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, and any other label that people place on themselves and others. 

And I note with amusement that Microsoft Word does not even try to capitalize kwanza as a proper noun.


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vecsus_
> 
> I find kwanza to be absurd...I won't even give it the dignity of capitalizing it. It's a purely invented holiday intended to give a specific demographic a holiday of their own. They intentionally chose to hold it in December to force a confrontation with Christmas and Hanukkah.
> 
> ...


While i don't disagree with your assertion that the original founder of Kwanza might have wanted a confrontation with establishment holidays, that has not occurred as black Americans tend to be practicing Christians to a very high degree.

As to the made up-ed-ness of the holiday (and with respect to other members), it would not be incorrect to suggest that the timing and present incarnations of Christmas and Hannukah are made up as well.

I also agree that people should be proud of who they are, but since my ancestors were not brought here as chattel and sold to the highest bidder, it wouldn't be right for me to judge someone's desire to create some traditions for themselves. I don't subscribe to any white collective guilt theories, I just take the view that it's hard to judge others with walking a little bit in their moccassins.

I not with amusement that Microsoft has a devil of a time delivering quality, bug-free software despite their billions.


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## Vecsus (Aug 27, 2005)

Christmas and Hannukah evolved over time, they were not suddenly conceived as kwanza was. Christmas and Hannukah are also based on real people and real events that took place on a real point in time. kwanza is pure fiction, its format, its function, its timing...all contrived.

Yes, Black Americans, for the most part, celebrate Christmas. That further invalidates the recognition of kwanza as an official holiday: the people for which it was supposedly created don't want it. The whole concept needs to just fade away and be forgotten.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Horace_
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> 
> > quote:_Originally posted by rws_
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Good point, Horace. Just a temporary emotional effusion on my part. Got a grip on, now.

Happy *New Year* to all!


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Vecsus_
> 
> Christmas and Hannukah evolved over time, they were not suddenly conceived as kwanza was. Christmas and Hannukah are also based on real people and real events that took place on a real point in time. kwanza is pure fiction, its format, its function, its timing...all contrived.
> 
> Yes, Black Americans, for the most part, celebrate Christmas. That further invalidates the recognition of kwanza as an official holiday: the people for which it was supposedly created don't want it. The whole concept needs to just fade away and be forgotten.


Christmas and Hannukah have not been celebrated since the respective events occured and were in fact suddenly conceived at least a few hundred years after the fact. The modern celebration of Christmas didn't really begin until the Victorian era.


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## Badrabbit (Nov 18, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by maxnharry_
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I think the point being made was that though the celebrations may have developed rather suddenly and that though days on which to celebrate them may have been arbitrarily placed in the calendar (or even planned to coincide with other celebrations), they were not invented from whole cloth. There was something of record to celebrate (whether or not one believes that Christ was the son of God or that oil burned for 8 days in the temple in Jerusalem).

Columbus day was not celebrated from the very time that Columbus "discovered" America but there was something concrete on which to base the Holiday (i.e. historical record) when it was decided that it should be celebrated. Kwanzaa has no such event nor does it even reference a specific religion or culture.


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Badrabbit_
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Agreed


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> Her outline is basically correct about the founder of Kwanzaa. I'm not sure about the SLA references. The question then becomes should the history of the creator of Kwanzaa then invalidate the aims of the holiday?


No, but his aims should.

He was intentionally attempting to create a "black" alternative to christmas to further seperate the races here in America.

Let me repeat that so it sinks in.

He DELIBERATELY designed and positioned the holiday to CREATE DEVISIVENESS BETWEEN THE RACES.

What Coulter doesn't mention is WHY he went to jail--for torturing (rather savagely) two female members OF HIS OWN ORGANIZATION. This is *after* he started kwanza. Real spiritual guy there.

And now he's a professor at UCLA. Says quite a bit about the California University System now doesn't it?

Also he was a Marxist/Communist and the "holiday" reflects that. "Day of Co-operative Economics" my bleeding behind.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by petro_
> 
> He DELIBERATELY (fill in the blank) to CREATE DEVISIVENESS BETWEEN THE RACES.


Isn't this the same thing Jackson and Farrakhan do?


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by petro_
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I would be interested to see your sources on this.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

Res ipsa loquitur


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
> 
> Res ipsa loquitur


CT:

It doesn't speak for itself. Kwanzaa is a cultural holiday, not a religious one. Being black and Christian and celebrating Kwanzaa are not mutually exclusive. So again, I would be interested in learning of a reputable source which shows that Kwanzaa was designed to supplant Christmas and divide the races.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I'm suprised in all this discussion no one has mentioned Martin Luther King's observed birthday. Whatever you think of the man personally, the holiday marks as a whole the entire civil rights movement. Does anyone want to go back to the days of segregation? I got myself into another tangle yesterday. I'm in a Quiznos sandwich shop and ran into a well known actor friend. The store clerk of Middle Eastern birth pointedly refused his order with a series of increasingly ludicrous excuses, finally saying " I won't serve you." I'm standing there, looking at the present incarnation of ethnic hostility on many american's part stupidly displaying his own. Well, he got a face full of coke (the real thing)and an invitation to step outside. Police were called and now Quiznos is doing PR damage control to avoid becoming the next Dennys. What truly ticked me off is I enjoy total 'colour blindness' with my friend. It's just not part of our reality unless we consciously discuss it. For a third party to impose that division on our day really got me, er irish up


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

Christians should hesitate before denouncing the crimes and misdeeds of others. All the atrocities committed by all the Black Nationalists in history amount to no more than a good five minute's work for the Soldiers of Christ. If the numberless murders and thefts committed in the name of The Lord do not invalidate the celebration of His birth, then those who are inclined to observe Kwanza may freely overlook any crimes attributed to Professor Karenga. It is interesting to speculate why an event that purports to recognize and celebrate the African ancestry of millions of Americans should disturb anyone. Such a person must find St. Patrick's Day to be an intolerable outrage.

And I note with satisfaction that WordPerfect's spell checker does recognize Kwanza as a proper noun: Just one more reason to continue using this dying application in preference to MS Word.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> 
> Christians should hesitate before denouncing the crimes and misdeeds of others. All the atrocities committed by all the Black Nationalists in history amount to no more than a good five minute's work for the Soldiers of Christ. If the numberless murders and thefts committed in the name of The Lord do not invalidate the celebration of His birth, then those who are inclined to observe Kwanza may freely overlook any crimes attributed to Professor Karenga. It is interesting to speculate why an event that purports to recognize and celebrate the African ancestry of millions of Americans should disturb anyone. Such a person must find St. Patrick's Day to be an intolerable outrage.
> 
> And I note with satisfaction that WordPerfect's spell checker does recognize Kwanza as a proper noun: Just one more reason to continue to using this dying application in preference to MS Word.


If we accepted that reasoning, we would never be able to call any behavior unacceptable. I don't know your personal ethnic/cultural background, but I'll throw out a few cases of bad behavior/genocide just for kicks:

Anglo-Saxons: killed and displaced the Celts and Picts - basically destroyed the Picts entirely.

Italians: The Romans, enough said.

Germans: Hitler, most recently. Before him, the Goths, Vandals, etc.

Japanese: See WWII relating to China and Korea.

Chinese: Tibet, Mongolia, Muslims.

French: Napolean for starters (ok, he wasn't French, but his army was).

Greece/Macedonia: Alexander the Great

Jews: Ever read the Old Testament? They killed anyone in their way, especially right after the Exodus.

Muslims: The whole reason for the Crusades. They slaughtered and killed from Northern Africa to the Middle East to Southern Europe. The architecture in Spain is beautiful, but living there during Moorish rule was not.

OK, the point is that every country, culture, religion, and ethnicity has a story of commiting horrible crimes against some other people. If we let that lock us into inaction, we will be powerless to do anything.

Also, I don't think that anyone is bothered by a person of African descent celebrating their ancestory. What we're bothered by (well, me at least) is the purposeful invention of a fictional culture used to separate one race from another at a time when we should be doing the exact opposite. I'm very proud of my heritage, but before I'm an Italian-German-Swedish-(maybe-a-bit-of-something-else)-American, I'm an _individual American_. I'm not part of some collective with an fictional ancestral culture and no dissent allowed.

*Kav* I am appalled. Good for you cola-ing his face. For God's sake, this is America. We should not have to put up with that sort of infantile behavior here. I can't imagine that the police were very sympathetic to the dimwitted clerk, either.

CT

CT


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Good for you for pointing out the other genocidal behavior. 

Too often, those with an axe to grind will point out major sins that some Christians have committed. Most of these people were NOT following the true dictates of the faith, but were distorting the teachings to achieve some nefarious personal end.

How refreshing that you have put some context into this discussion.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Kav, my only regret is that Quiznos does not sell custard pies. Your clerk would have deserved one. 

Although, what did you do that upset him so much that he would refuse to do his job? (I'll admit that there are some jerks out there who end up getting dismissed during their first week on the job for this kind of behavior, but not a lot of them.)


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
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Your catalog of historical atrocity, and the conclusion you draw from it, are both irrelevant to my earlier point. Be that as it may, evidently you did not notice the irony of proclaiming yourself "an individual American" and then denying that you are "part of some collective with an fictional ancestral culture." And do re-read your history of the Islamic conquests, Muslim Spain, and The Crusades: the relative ease with which the warriors of the Prophet swept away much of the existing Christian world in the 7th and 8th centuries, and the consequences that followed from this, are subjects of endless fascination. Finally, I agree with you: "I don't think that anyone is bothered by a person of African descent celebrating their ancestory." Except when he or she does celebrate it; then, apparently, a whole lot of people are bothered by it.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> I'm suprised in all this discussion no one has mentioned Martin Luther King's observed birthday. Whatever you think of the man personally, the holiday marks as a whole the entire civil rights movement. Does anyone want to go back to the days of segregation? I got myself into another tangle yesterday. I'm in a Quiznos sandwich shop and ran into a well known actor friend. The store clerk of Middle Eastern birth pointedly refused his order with a series of increasingly ludicrous excuses, finally saying " I won't serve you." I'm standing there, looking at the present incarnation of ethnic hostility on many american's part stupidly displaying his own. Well, he got a face full of coke (the real thing)and an invitation to step outside. Police were called and now Quiznos is doing PR damage control to avoid becoming the next Dennys. What truly ticked me off is I enjoy total 'colour blindness' with my friend. It's just not part of our reality unless we consciously discuss it. For a third party to impose that division on our day really got me, er irish up


Kav, I am blown away by this. don't you live in LA? I have never seen that kind of thing.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

Yckmwia - I must just misunderstand your earlier point, then. I reread it and came to the same conclusion as before - that we do not have the right to critisize a violent sepratist because of some attrocity that our ancestors may have perpretrated. (Granted, I read it a little broader than purley "Christian", which is what you wrote.)

I'm not sure that the ease of Moorish conquest and occupation is a valid measure of the justice and/or gentleness of their rule there. I agree that it is fascinating, though.

Finally, as to "the irony of proclaiming yourself a "an individual American" and then denying that you are "part of some collective with an fictional ancestral culture." I'm not sure that I see what you mean. I don't see any irony in that at all. I know exactly how far back America and American culture (such as it is) goes. I didn't make up the Revolution or Pearl Harbor or Rosa Parks. It's hardly fictional. Anyway, I meant that I can have whatever opinion I want and speak it loudly and no one has the ability to shout me down because of it. Others may disagree, even loudly so, but no one would take seriously an attempt to mock me as a tratior to my whiteness because of it. That is something that I perceive the black community doing with some regularity. I don't think that a group will really ever be taken seriously if they intentionally supress internal dissent with the goal of maintaining some bizarre purity of thought. (On a side note, I hope that the new generation of black leaders, like Barack Obama and Harold Ford, will put an end to this silliness.)

I would like to add that I believe that Christianity has come farther than most Western traditions in acknowledging participation in terrible acts. Much moreso than I see from any other groups.

CT


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## cufflink44 (Oct 31, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by forsbergacct2000_
> Too often, those with an axe to grind will point out major sins that some Christians have committed. Most of these people were NOT following the true dictates of the faith, but were distorting the teachings to achieve some nefarious personal end.


That sounds fine until you take the next step and ask who is going to determine what "the true dictates of the faith" actually are.

Consider two prominent U.S. Christians, Pat Robertson and Bishop John Spong. Both take their Christian faith very seriously. Yet with regard to virtually every current issue of religious or social import, that faith leads them to diametrically opposed positions. Which one is following the "true dictates of the faith"?

If you asked Osama bin Laden whether he's following the true dictates of Islam, what do you think he'd say? And if a moderate Muslim were to argue with him, what do you think the debate would look like? I think I know, because I've seen it a hundred times in Christian, Jewish, and Muslim contexts: it'd be the good ol' Circus of Dueling Verses. You go to your holy book and pick out the quotations that serve your purpose, then throw them in the face of your opponent. Trouble is, both sides can play the same game.

The true dictates of the faith boil down to the interpretation of the faith that we and the group of people we identify with find congenial.


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
> 
> Yckmwia - I must just misunderstand your earlier point, then. I reread it and came to the same conclusion as before - that we do not have the right to critisize a violent sepratist because of some attrocity that our ancestors may have perpretrated.
> 
> CT


There is a big difference between criticizing the creator of Kwanzaa, who is fair game for criticism, and refusing to acknowledge Kwanzaa because it is some made up African mumbo jumbo. Unfortunately most of the posters here cannot separate the man from Kwanzaa. One can only imagine what you all think of Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion.

As to the claims that Kwanzaa is "made up", many African cultures hold "first fruit" harvest celebrations and these were the inspiration for Kwanzaa. These same types of festivals appear in the Bible as well:

Exodus 23:16 (King James version)

"And the feast of harvest, the first fruits of thy labors, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labors out of the field."

Should just one authentic celebration, say the West African yam festivals for example, be celebrated as Kwanzaa? Or, since, as Globetrotter notes, slaves were uprooted from their cultures and consequently many African-Americans descended from those slaves can't identify the culture of their ancestors, should a pan-African holiday promoting inquiry into cultural origins suffice?

And again, show me some proof that Kwanzaa was created to "divide the races". I've heard that claim several times now, yet no one seems able to back it up. Furthermore, let's not forget that America was plenty divided in 1966 when Kwanzaa was created. Since the creation of Kwanzaa, America has become less divided, not more. So what exactly has been the divisive effect of Kwanzaa on Americans?

Regards,

Charles

"Si monumentum requiris, circumpsice"


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

It's totally safe to say that no genuine Christian would condone Hitler's activities. 

I do realize that I am not nearly as patient with Muslims who claim that flying planes into buildings is not true Muslim belief. I am not sure how to rationalize this, but I am not as patient with Muslims who claim what I have just claimed.

Go ahead and say that Christians condone and support genocide and other hideous actions like this if you must. Only other strident anti-Christian leftists will give you the time of day anyway.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Hitler's name invoked in a thread about a Black American winter holiday! Godwin's Law at work again!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> One can only imagine what you all think of Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion.


About the same as I think of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> Hitler's name invoked in a thread about a Black American winter holiday! Godwin's Law at work again!
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


Alas, that was originally my doing. Though in my defence, it was just in a list of genocidal maniacs.

CT


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

I may be stating the obvious here, but in a free society Kwanzaa will flourish or wither based only on how much people actually _want_ to celebrate it (or not). I personally think it is debated about more than it is observed. Just my two one cent.


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## Cliff (Mar 10, 2005)

Hmmmm......totally made up holiday. Makes about as much sense as a religion started by a science fiction writer.


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## KCMan (Nov 11, 2005)

> quote:Originally posted by bosthist
> And again, show me some proof that Kwanzaa was created to "divide the races". I've heard that claim several times now, yet no one seems able to back it up. Furthermore, let's not forget that America was plenty divided in 1966 when Kwanzaa was created. Since the creation of Kwanzaa, America has become less divided, not more. So what exactly has been the divisive effect of Kwanzaa on Americans?


Here are some contradictions from Karenga that show at one time he was intentionally trying to be divisive

Also, here is a good article by Tony Snow about kwanza
https://www.jewishworldreview.com/tony/snow123199.asp


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## bosthist (Apr 4, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by KCMan_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm unimpressed.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by bosthist_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I rather like Karenga's early dismissal of "spookism".

"If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal." Emma Goldman


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