# Pumping up my pecs...



## brandonmichelt (Apr 28, 2006)

Seems as if we've got quite a few members who are no strangers to the weight bench, wondering if I can tap into that knowledge.

Here's the rundown:

I've always been in fairly good shape, been active in sports (football, tennis, golf), and gone to the gym (mostly for cardio, occasional weight training, sauna etc.). I consider myself to be fit (5'8", 145lbs), but on the under-powered side (I only bench 125 max). The one issue I have is the fat(tissue?) on my chest that I can't seem to work off. Don't get me wrong, I don't have man-breasts, but as slim as I am otherwise, this has always been a problem for me.

In an effort to work this off and get stronger, I've decided to start seriously lifting weights. My first concern is to get my pecs in shape, but I'd also like to put on a few pounds of muscle.

Any tips/advice from the athletic builds of the group?


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Uomo Di Fretti said:


> Seems as if we've got quite a few members who are no strangers to the weight bench, wondering if I can tap into that knowledge.
> 
> Here's the rundown:
> 
> ...


People tend to, for genetic reasons sometimes, have an excess of adipose tissue in particular areas of their bodies. In your case it may be in the chest. Understand that through weight lifting you cannot spot reduce, meaning through resistance training you will not reduce the adipose tissue around your pec region. You may want to consider a combination of aerobic activity, which will reduce fatty deposits, and weight training. Also keep in mind that you may not want to focus your efforts on just one part but rather a comprehensive weight training regimen otherwise you will look out of proportion. I would suggest starting slowly however working more for muscular endurance with low weight, higher repetition activities rather than heavy resisntance which will actually bulk you up and force you to alter a good portion of you wardrobe.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

pt4u67 said:


> People tend to, for genetic reasons sometimes, have an excess of adipose tissue in particular areas of their bodies. In your case it may be in the chest. Understand that through weight lifting you cannot spot reduce, meaning through resistance training you will not reduce the adipose tissue around your pec region. You may want to consider a combination of aerobic activity, which will reduce fatty deposits, and weight training. Also keep in mind that you may not want to focus your efforts on just one part but rather a comprehensive weight training regimen otherwise you will look out of proportion. I would suggest starting slowly however working more for muscular endurance with low weight, higher repetition activities rather than heavy resisntance which will actually bulk you up and force you to alter a good portion of you wardrobe.


I would second pt's suggestion. Get some adjustable dumbbells and build up your strength slowly. Dumbbell bench press, arm extensions, curls etc will slowly build up and tighten up your muscles in the regions you want.


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## brandonmichelt (Apr 28, 2006)

pt4u67 said:


> People tend to, for genetic reasons sometimes, have an excess of adipose tissue in particular areas of their bodies. In your case it may be in the chest. Understand that through weight lifting you cannot spot reduce, meaning through resistance training you will not reduce the adipose tissue around your pec region.


pt4u67, I've actualy wondered about this myself. Adipose is essentially excess fatty tissue, right (I'm no doctor)? What I don't understand is that this is the only area where this is a problem. I'm on the slim side and already do a fair amount of cardio on an almost daily basis, so it seems strange to me that this would be fat.

Point well taken about spot training not providing that desired result. My hope is that in gaining muscle overall, I can increase my ability to lose this fat(?).

Any more info you can provide on adipose, and how to lose it?


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## arbitrage (Jan 13, 2006)

I see a lot of ads for male chest reduction surgery in the local papers. As someone with excess adipose myself I did some research on the subject. There is a lot of talk about the chicken industry pumping in estrogen into the chicken to make the breast meat bigger in the 70's/early 80's. This was banned by the US gov't but the effects are still here today. They say that 30% of US men have abnormally sized chests. In high school I used a crash diet to get myself down to 157lbs (6'3", large frame) and I still had excess adipose. I was wondering if anyone has had reduction surgery and is brave enough to talk about it.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Uomo Di Fretti said:


> pt4u67, I've actualy wondered about this myself. Adipose is essentially excess fatty tissue, right (I'm no doctor)? What I don't understand is that this is the only area where this is a problem. I'm on the slim side and already do a fair amount of cardio on an almost daily basis, so it seems strange to me that this would be fat.
> 
> Point well taken about spot training not providing that desired result. My hope is that in gaining muscle overall, I can increase my ability to lose this fat(?).
> 
> Any more info you can provide on adipose, and how to lose it?


adipose tissue is not excessive, it just is. The thing to understand is that the adipose tissue is just there. It doesn't go away with exercise. The fat that is stored in it leaves however the potential is just still there for it to come back. Some of us are just born lucky I guess. Others have to work hard and still carry a bit of excess baggage despite our efforts. Cardiovascular really is the best way to burn fat. By weight training you may increase the lean muscle mass in your pectorals. By doing this you may change the overall shape of that area thereby giving you a better conture. You may also wish to consult a dietician/nutritionist regarding a diet that promotes fat burning and reduces your insulin response (a major contributor to enhanced fat storage).


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Starting member,

God you are weak! LOL

I am glad to offer advice.
Myself 54, 150ish, 30 waist.
I have been at other weights, active my entire life, and military career.
First, you shoul press you weight.
Why, I have no friggin idea.
My advice, start on your Triceps and your biceps.
I recommend no more than 50 lbs on your biceps and triceps, 3 sets of 10 reps, 3 times a week.
I recommend Nautilus or other non free weights.
I have seen some lifters get into trouble with free weights.
The non lifters.
I recommend the same, a military pulldown, 100 lbs for starters, same reps.
Then go up increments of 5-10 on your military press.
This will work your traps.
You definitely will not get brawn, but you do not have any.
Stay cardio, get HR above 160 4-5 times a week, 1 hour each time.
This is the best thing for you.
Eat correctly, and do not worry.
I see a lot of sports injuries, from poor technique, a lot.
The above, I have done, and got up to my weight.
Yes, include the situps or abdomen, and legs.
Yes, do quads, even if a runner.
You get more definitive tone doing 3 sets of 10 reps of 60 lbs quads than running, or cycling.
That is all the weight you need to do, on top of your exercise.
Quads will prevent knee issues for yourself.
3 times a week.
Again, do not fret the weight training, have been there myself, and got into stupid trouble on free weights.
Go with nautilus or another system.

Nice day my friend


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## brandonmichelt (Apr 28, 2006)

DukeGrad, I'll let that jab slide in view of the good advice you gave me.

One thing maybe you can advise me on is how to alter the routine you provided given that I hate Nautilus and other like machines.

And honestly I'm not as weak as I sound (I curl 40's and yes, w/proper from). I do have a weak chest probably triceps though, which is why I mentioned my bench, and am now serious about getting stronger.

I'm already doing more cardio than mentioned in your routine, but any advice you can offer on how to pull off the rest w/free weights w/o pulling anything else is appreciated.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Uomo Di Fretti,

Most weight types do. They, at the end of their regimens like to feel the burn, and feel the fatigue. 
When this happens, and happened to me, you push off, very mildly, but do so. To get that last rep in.
Over time, this leads to chronic injuries, the rotator cuff, and mostly the biceps.
I , and this was after a serious injury to myself, in the military, was able to bench my weight. Much older man, think I was 47 or 48ish, not a big deal.
At that time, was working my legs, and was doing some serious leg presses to strengthen.
I use the nautilus, or equivalent.
I nched up a 5 pounds each week, 5 at a time.
Took 3 months of this, but injury free.
I had no plan to do this.
For you triceps, the same as your biceps.
The military press will help you out as well as the overhead press, working your traps.And latissimus dorsi as well.
I used to like the free weights myself, but learned, as one who likes aerobic exercise more than anything, it felt futile to do anerobic with any serious plans.
You seem to know the regimen, but be aware, if you do free, just do them, without tiring or feeling the burn or the fatigue.
Again, you will use what other muscles, that are not working, to help in this process, opening yourself up to injury.
I see a lot of Bicep ruptures in body builders.
This suggest to me, a lot of chronic injury, over time to the biceps tendon.
This is a long term process that happens, just be aware.

Have nice day my friend
Good luck
Let us know how you make out.


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

Uomo Di Fretti, head over to bodybuilding.com and read the Over 35 forum. I don't know why Duke Grad is so against free weights, but you should be doing a M,W,F split or even a 2 or 3 day full body workout. Also, you need to get your diet in check.

You'll find a ton of programs over there, in addition to a bunch of information on diet.

To be quite honest, the info is this thread is scary.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Uomo Di Fretti: I have been seriously into exercise for a bit over 45 years, although, I'm just a few years older than DukeGrad. I stand just at 6' and presently weigh 197 lbs, never allowing my weight to vary more than 10 to 12 pounds over what I weighed when I graduated fron college. My chest measures 46" and my waist is 35" to 36," up from the 31 inch waist I had when I graduated. My max effort bench press is 8 to 12 reps @ 240 lbs and my bicep curls are 12 to 15 reps @ 140 lbs (using a bar, not barbells). I have said all this, not to say hey look at me but rather, to add credence to what I am about to say. 

DukeGrad has offered some very comprehensive and sound advice. The few times I have injured myself over the years, I have been using free weights and trying to work with more weight than I could really handle. Acknowleging your dislike of machines, I would like to point out there are units out that provide the advantages and sensation of free weights, while providing the safety and "form discipline" offered by machines. For my daily workouts, I use a Hoist V5 unit and for my max efforts I have to go to the gym and use the Nautilus gear, because of the weight limit on the V5. The V5, as well as a number of other machines features articulating arms that closely simulate the feel and actual exercise advantages of free weights. Unless you have a full tike, competent spotter, the advantages offered might be worth your consideration. 

Exercises to consider regarding the goals you have specified for developing your chest and your triceps would include not just bench presses and overhead presses but, to keep suprising your muscle groups and provide a more comprehensive workout, include, decline presses, elevated presses, tricep extensions, dips (if you have access to a dip stand), and seated rows. Structure your workout so that each time you work a muscle group, you also include an exercise to work the opposing muscle group. Try to avoid being drawn in by the heavier weights...you will incur fewer injuries and achieve better results by using less weight, focusing on achieving perfect form and slowing the cycle time for your reps, way down. The goal ought to be to experience muscle failure between the 8th and 12th rep for each set. Strength gains and increases in muscle mass will be greatest with such a training approach.

Another point DukeGrad made that bears repeating is, the results achieved will be determined by three factors; exercise, diet and genetics. Work hard, stick with it and be realistic...this will lead to long term success! Good luck and keep us appraised of your progress. Eagle


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## Jasper Delaney (Jul 26, 2006)

Many ways to do this. I prefer dumbbells. The fitness magazines are loaded with exercises that build pectorals. Done with steadiness and sincerity, these exercises will work. I've reshaped my entire body, through exercise. Best thing I ever did.


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## marcus_halberstam (Aug 8, 2006)

There's a lot of good info at bodybuilding websites. Find a good, solid plan and stick to it consistently.

As far as simple advice goes, I'd go with the following:

1) Use free weights. Machines build muscle less efficiently, build less useful strength and can cause systemic injuries in the long term (because you are locked into a specific movement).

2) Learn good form - the best source I found for this was a book by Stuart McRobert called The Insiders Guide to Weight Training Technique (or something similar). He has a very conservative approach to form and I have not injured myself whilst following his instructions.

3) Build weight gradually to give your body time to adjust, even if you feel like you can take more.

4) Focus on compound exercises - chin ups/pull ups, bench press, overhead press, rows, etc. Also squats and deadlifts are useful if you're looking to gain decent amounts of weight

5) LEARN GOOD FORM ... I can't emphasise this enough

6) Develop a good diet. If you're gaining, a good rule of thumb is to increase your intake by 250 kcal/day each week until you are gaining weight satisfactorily. 

7) Get lots of sleep.

8) If you're looking to reduce body fat (ie cutting), keep lifting heavy but reduce your intake of calories gradually until you are losing weight. It's important to keep lifting heavy to convince your body to hang onto muscle and get rid of fat instead. Cardio causes the body to burn muscle, the body does not like muscle as it is metabolically expensive.

9) Less is more. Don't go crazy and work out five times a week or something. You shouldn't be working your upperbody much more than twice a week. Your body grows outside of the gym, not in it.

10) Gaining muscle takes serious commitment but is highly rewarding. If you're going to do this, make sure you stick to it and keep going despite any setbacks.

There's much more comprehensive information out there on the web and I'd encourage you to read it.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I have been using 10, 15 and 20 pound dumbbells.

My right elbow is starting to hurt, so I have substituted resistance bands and calisthenics for the dumbbell work. The elbow is a little better now.

I'm hoping to get back to the weights again.

Should I drop the 20 pounder? I plan to see an exercise therapist at my weight loss center and see if we can identify the exercise that has been causing the pain.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

My advice is you need to get a balance between cardio, resistance training and diet. All 3 have to be in balance. Weight training can reduce fat, or it could just add bulk below your fat. Cardio and reistance training will be your best bet for fat reduction. At the same time you have to be diligent about what you eat.

My other advice for weight training is not to overly focus on your chest and forget the surrounding muscles. Overall size and mass will look better in proportion. Give attention to your shoulders and arms also for balance. Regarding your chest, you can work it from 3 angles (incline, flat and decline) so be sure to give it full attention.


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## marcus_halberstam (Aug 8, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I have been using 10, 15 and 20 pound dumbbells.
> 
> My right elbow is starting to hurt, so I have substituted resistance bands and calisthenics for the dumbbell work. The elbow is a little better now.
> 
> ...


Are you just doing curls? It's possible that this is causing an imbalance - ie arms are designed to have strong biceps & triceps, etc... I'd switch to pullups and dips for a while as they will hit your arms hard whilst treating them as part of a whole.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Should I drop the 20 pounder? I plan to see an exercise therapist at my weight loss center and see if we can identify the exercise that has been causing the pain.


What exactly is an exercise therapist? As a physical therapist I'm often concerned when people refer to themselves as an anything "therapist" when the term therapist actually implies that the individual in question is involved in some activity that has a medicinal/rehabilitative function.

To answer your question however I would suggest the following: You can always tell which exercise bothers your condition as when you perform that exercise it lights up your symptoms. I know it sounds simplistic but in most cases it is true. Sometimes by lightening the load you can resolve this. Sometimes changing your body mechanics can resolve this as well. I'm a big fan of full body conditioning. Unless you are working out as a body builder attempting to change the shape of your body I would recommend a good program consisting of medicine balls, free weights (dumbbells prefarably as they allow for more natural joint motion) and core/trunk strengthening. This combination will increase your overall endurance which is usually what most people are looking for.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

marcus_halberstam said:


> Are you just doing curls? It's possible that this is causing an imbalance - ie arms are designed to have strong biceps & triceps, etc... I'd switch to pullups and dips for a while as they will hit your arms hard whilst treating them as part of a whole.


If the the joint in question is being loaded with 10, 15 or even 20 lbs. and it is hurting I would suggesting staying away from loading said joint with full body weight. You may have an underlying orthopedic conditioning that may be exacerbated by doing so. I understand what you mean by a muscle imbalance however in the elbow this is rarely the case as it is not a weight bearing joint (unless you are a circus performer). I would urge an orthopedic consult or see your friendly neighborhood physical therapist.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I understand your concern about the title I gave to the people who teach exercise classes at our weight loss center (which is a branch of the local hospital.) I should not have used the term "therapist" and assure you that they do not use that term either.

I do think they have the expertise to tell me if I'm doing the exercises with the proper form if I bring my dumbbells in and do the workout in front of them.

I also do triceps exercises (with resistance bands). I once went over my routine with them, describing it, and they thought it would work. However, they did not actually see me doing the exercises. Since I am so new to all of this, I could be using poor form and not realize it.

I thank you for the time you took to respond to my question!! I see you live in Chicago and wish I could visit you. You could probably help me a lot (although you probably already have more patients than you need.)


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Forsbergacct2000,

I think the 20 lb dumbell is the issue. Again, am a fan of assisted equipment, that does very good.
I had problems myself, on free weights.
You could have developed an "epicondilitis," a common work injury, from repetitive insult; such as the weight training, maybe too much weight and poor form.
I agree with the Physical therapist here, have seen poor advice from the gym trainers, rare, but do see it.
Try the assisted stuff.
Good luck my friend

Nice day gentlemen


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I understand your concern about the title I gave to the people who teach exercise classes at our weight loss center (which is a branch of the local hospital.) I should not have used the term "therapist" and assure you that they do not use that term either.
> 
> I do think they have the expertise to tell me if I'm doing the exercises with the proper form if I bring my dumbbells in and do the workout in front of them.
> 
> ...


I'll never turn business away!! Besides how could I refuse someone who drove 200 miles.


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## JohnnyDeeper (Jul 22, 2006)

Any input on the pros/cons of pull-ups and push ups - compared with weights?


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

JohnnyDeeper said:


> Any input on the pros/cons of pull-ups and push ups - compared with weights?


Pullups are one of the best bodyweight exercises you can do. Same for dips.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I have not heard of dips before.

I am new to the exercise thing this last year and a half.

I am eager to learn about another exercise that could probably help me!!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I have not heard of dips before.
> 
> I am new to the exercise thing this last year and a half.
> 
> I am eager to learn about another exercise that could probably help me!!


Dips are actually a great exercise that provide benefits for the chest, arms and shoulders. Using your own body weight (or some portion thereof) to provide resistance, you lower and raise yourself between two supports. Most well equipped gyms have "weigt assisted" dip stands that allow a beginner to perform the exercise while the equipment assists in supporting or lifting that portion of your bodyweight that exceeds your present lifting capability. You can replicate this scenario at home by placing two "solid seated" chairs just a bit more than your shoulder width apart. Placing your palms flat on the chair seat and extending your legs in front of you to support a portion of your weight, you lower and raise yourself between the chairs. Work your way up to the point where you can do three sets of 8 to 10 reps. You might also consider incorporating push-ups and pull-ups into your routine, applying similiar weight assistance techniques, as necessary (ie: doing bent knee push-ups in the beginning). Good luck and feel free to ask any additional questions you may have?


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## brandonmichelt (Apr 28, 2006)

Thanks for all the great advice. 

After my trip to the gym yesterday (this time with a competent spotter) I realized that according to eagle's advice (going for exhaustion between 8-12 reps) I actually wasn't pushing myself quite hard enough (specifically on bench press). After having messed around with some lighter weight (which I'm thinking may have decreased my max-out potential), I reached exhaustion on the bench with 8 reps @ 145lbs. 

After considering our physical therapist's thoughts about adipose tissue, and realizing how little body fat I have otherwise, I'm now not so concerned about focusing on that problem area but rather on gaining strength and improving my upper body as a whole.

In aiming to gain muscle and strength, should I go for my absolute max the first time out when working a specific area (reaching exhaustion on my first set) or is it best to work up to that with lighter weights (reaching exhaustion on the 2nd or 3rd set) although it may lessen my max-out potential? How many sets should I do at various levels and on which set should I shoot for exhaustion?

Thanks for all the help so far, and bearing with all the new-boy questions.


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## JohnnyDeeper (Jul 22, 2006)

What I really meant to ask was, are dips/pull-ups BETTER than weights? Any thoughts on this?



eagle2250 said:


> Dips are actually a great exercise that provide benefits for the chest, arms and shoulders. Using your own body weight (or some portion thereof) to provide resistance, you lower and raise yourself between two supports. Most well equipped gyms have "weigt assisted" dip stands that allow a beginner to perform the exercise while the equipment assists in supporting or lifting that portion of your bodyweight that exceeds your present lifting capability. You can replicate this scenario at home by placing two "solid seated" chairs just a bit more than your shoulder width apart. Placing your palms flat on the chair seat and extending your legs in front of you to support a portion of your weight, you lower and raise yourself between the chairs. Work your way up to the point where you can do three sets of 8 to 10 reps. You might also consider incorporating push-ups and pull-ups into your routine, applying similiar weight assistance techniques, as necessary (ie: doing bent knee push-ups in the beginning). Good luck and feel free to ask any additional questions you may have?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

JohnnyDeeper said:


> What I really meant to ask was, are dips/pull-ups BETTER than weights? Any thoughts on this?


I don't know if one could actually say that exercises using one's own body weight to provide the resistance are better or worse than weights. Both approaches provide a load to exercise one's muscle groups. It is possible to get a very comprehensive workout using just body weight to provide the resistance. However I prefer to look at pull-ups, dips, and push-ups, as being regular supplements to my workouts using a combination of free wieghts, machines and body weight exercises. Our bodies are remarkably resilient and suprisingly capable of adapting to regular workout routines. If we do the very same exercises day after day, using exactly the same approach, our muscles adapt and we begin to realize less benefit(s) for the same level of effort expended. Introducing a variety of different exercises every couple of weeks, alternating between free weights, machines and body weight resistance routines will enable us to maximize our training benefits and avoid the boredom commonly associated with doing the same routine over an extended period of time.


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

JohnnyDeeper said:


> What I really meant to ask was, are dips/pull-ups BETTER than weights? Any thoughts on this?


There isn't a cut and dry answer. Pullups are a great exercise for your back, mainly the lats but also your delts.

Dips are great for your chest (pecs) and triceps.

You can't really say that they're "better" than weights, but IMO they should be a part of any bodybuilding program. On the other hand, if all you did was pullups and dips, you'd look better than most people. You should also work legs, even if you only do dumbell squats and lunges.

Do you know that the average adult male can't do 2 pullups? Don't be discouraged if you have to gradually work your way up. Happy lifting.


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## brandonmichelt (Apr 28, 2006)

Just a bump, thanks for the input.



Uomo Di Fretti said:


> In aiming to gain muscle and strength, should I go for my absolute max the first time out when working a specific area (reaching exhaustion on my first set) or is it best to work up to that with lighter weights (reaching exhaustion on the 2nd or 3rd set) although it may lessen my max-out potential? How many sets should I do at various levels and on which set should I shoot for exhaustion?


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## JohnnyDeeper (Jul 22, 2006)

What exercises do gymnasts do? These guys really look great. That's basically what I want. I don't want to end up looking like Arnold.



MarkY said:


> There isn't a cut and dry answer. Pullups are a great exercise for your back, mainly the lats but also your delts.
> 
> Dips are great for your chest (pecs) and triceps.
> 
> ...


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

JohnnyDeeper said:


> What exercises do gymnasts do? These guys really look great. That's basically what I want. I don't want to end up looking like Arnold.


gymnasts start at a very, very early age in order to develop the limb and core strength they have. They thing about high level athletes is that their training regimen is unique to them requires quite a committment. Also genetics plays a big part in how they end up so fine tuned. The sport applies a sort of "natural selection" and only those athletes with God given talent emerge at the top. The answer to your question however is that a large part of their training regimen is core/trunk strengthening. As far as upper body strength, that is developed over years and years of from the activities they perform in practice. Sort of like the story of Milo. He trained by carrying a young calf on his shoulders and as the calf grew, so did his strength.


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## marcus_halberstam (Aug 8, 2006)

JohnnyDeeper said:


> What exercises do gymnasts do? These guys really look great. That's basically what I want. I don't want to end up looking like Arnold.


Lots of body weight exercises using high leverage on the arms - for instance the iron cross where you suspend (and hold) yourself between two rings in a cross shaped position.

Interesting stuff on gymnast training here:

There's no danger of you looking like Arnold. You're not going to wake up one day and have put on fifty pounds of muscle overnight.


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