# More French nonsense



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

https://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=ayJZjR5OoaXA&refer=home

The market won't support a French version of CNN so Chirac has assigned the task to the French taxpayer. No surprise from a nation that views McDonalds, America and the English language as its real enemies. Why worry about Islamic radicalism, rogue states like Iran and North Korea, imploding internal demographics and an unsustainable social model when there are mythical battles to be fought (and undoubtedly lost) against the Anglo-Saxons! If only they had fought this hard in 1940 perhaps France would still be a world power.

Karl


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

"You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!"

" . . . now go away or I shall taunt you a second time-a!"


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

"And we will say "Nee" again and again until you appease us!"

"I want a shrubbery!"


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## GreyFlannelMan (Jun 16, 2004)

*Yawn*

Always easy to bash the French, isn't it? While they are late coming to the all-news television channel party, I give them credit for establishing their own channel.

I will say from the time I have spent in France (which, admittedly, isn't all that much), their newscasts do spend more time covering world affairs and generally do so in a much more thorough way than CNN (whose international edition essentially comnsists of repeating the same story 12 times a day).

Why do you care if the French taxpayer shoulders this burden anyway?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say `ni' at will to old ladies. ... There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Here is my favorite part of the article:



> The U.S., ``because of its prosperity, enjoys a unique position, which allows diffusion of culture founded on economic strength,'' said Jean-Noel Jeanneney, the national library's president. ``Against this, we have to defend ourselves.''


So they are defending themselves against being prosperous and economically strong? :icon_cheers: Good work guys


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Not so different from the VOA or World Service, is it?

I think there's plenty of room for another news broadcaster if they can provide a different perspective on world events. What's the problem with that?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Trilby said:


> Not so different from the VOA or World Service, is it?
> 
> I think there's plenty of room for another news broadcaster if they can provide a different perspective on world events. What's the problem with that?


There is nothing wrong with it per se, IMO. It is just that many of us in the New World automatically look askance when a government funds something to directly compete with an area of our private sector. Air Bus would be a good example.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

"We shall fart in your general direction!"


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## Tom72 (May 8, 2006)

Of course we Americans have more in common with the French than we have differences, certainly far more than either country cares to admit. Don't forget it was the French Army and Navy that cinched our freedom from monarchy in 1781 at Yorktown. The French have a free pass, in my book, for a couple hundred more years for that alone!

French Kissing? I am for it!

French Fries? Love 'em!

French Letters? "Zank Heaven, for leetle girrrrls"!!!!!


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## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> https://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=ayJZjR5OoaXA&refer=home
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the classic argument by xenophobia. A sound strategem conferring wisdom, knowledge and immense prestige on its owner.  With its obsessive xenophobia and errors in reasoning, this is a post worthy of a certain kind of esteem.

However, I suspect it is a rather thinly disguised attempt to bait whatever remaining French-speaking members we have left on AskAndy. If so, what a gentlemanly and thoughtful gesture toward your fellow forum members. Vraiment, c'est magnifique!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

erasmus said:


> Ah yes, the classic argument by xenophobia. A sound strategem conferring wisdom, knowledge and immense prestige on its owner.  With its obsessive xenophobia and errors in reasoning, this is a post worthy of a certain kind of esteem.
> 
> However, I suspect it is a rather thinly disguised attempt to bait whatever remaining French-speaking members we have left on AskAndy. If so, what a gentlemanly and thoughtful gesture toward your fellow forum members. Vraiment, c'est magnifique!


LOL, any time a native French speaker talks of xenophobia, I get a little warm chuckle in my Anglo-Canadian heart.


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

State support for broadcast media is hardly unknown in the "Anglo-Saxon," or English-speaking, world. In 2005 the Corporation for Public Broadcasting received nearly half a billion dollars in direct and indirect federal funding. The BBC is the largest broadcast corporation in the world, with an annual budget of approximately 4 billion pounds, most of which comes from television licensing fees that are set and collected by the British government. And in 2005 - 2006 the CBC received slightly over C$1 billion in government funding.


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't know what the problem is...

And I'd note that I hold special regard for those in Vermont, just to my north that have bucked the trend and shunned big billboards and Wal-Marts to protect their local environment.

France certainly has contributed to the global cultural scene, and I can see how globalization would dilute this. You can argue if the taxpayer should sponsor it, but last time I checked France wasn't a Jeffersonian democracy 

-spence


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Erasmus,

Thanks for the tortured logic. If by offering my opinion you think I am baiting French speakers to leave Ask Andy then it would seem that you have very little regard for diversity of opinion. I just find it strange that France has devoted more efforts and resources to combating English than it has to fighting tyranny in the world. And Jose Bove and company seem to get worked up by McDonalds but not by EU farm subsidies which hurt agriculture in Africa (American farmers and agribusiness are just as guilty as their EU counterparts in this regard.) But I suppose you make the mistake of viewing everything French as suave and sophisticated - don't worry its a common mistake among dilettantes. But be so kind as to point to my factual errors that you suggest that I have made.

Tom72 - you give the French a free pass, then fair enough. But why don't the French then give us a free pass? Surely liberating them from the Nazis surpasses their support in the Revolutionary War - unless of course you think George III was worse than Hitler.

Karl


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## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> Erasmus,
> 
> Thanks for the tortured logic. If by offering my opinion you think I am baiting French speakers to leave Ask Andy then it would seem that you have very little regard for diversity of opinion. I just find it strange that France has devoted more efforts and resources to combating English than it has to fighting tyranny in the world. And Jose Bove and company seem to get worked up by McDonalds but not by EU farm subsidies which hurt agriculture in Africa (American farmers and agribusiness are just as guilty as their EU counterparts in this regard.) But I suppose you make the mistake of viewing everything French as suave and sophisticated - don't worry its a common mistake among dilettantes. But be so kind as to point to my factual errors that you suggest that I have made.
> 
> ...


Please relax, you are becoming undone. Your vitriolic spewing is rather unseemly. I believe the French call such relaxation "joie de vivre". The Italians (perhaps you detest them less?) call it "la dolce vita". In English, it is called "relaxation".

Perhaps we shall continue this exchange at a later time if and when you are able to distinguish between mere doxa and logos. The teacher cannot teach when the student is unwilling, n'est ce pas?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

erasmus said:


> Perhaps we shall continue this exchange at a later time if and when you are able to distinguish between mere doxa and logos. The teacher cannot teach when the student is unwilling, n'est ce pas?


This easily wins the thread award for most supercilious and condescending statement. Good job!

Cheers


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Erasmus,

I don't detest the French. Only a few of them anyway. But I do, generally speaking, prefer Italians - unless of course they are Communists from Bologna. And be careful tossing around Greek terms lest I feel inclined to offer my opinion on modern Greece. 

Karl


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## Tom72 (May 8, 2006)

I would rather watch the Zimmerli girls move than read "ad hominem" argument. Please be civil, gentlemen.



Karl89 said:


> Erasmus,
> Tom72 - you give the French a free pass, then fair enough. But why don't the French then give us a free pass? Surely liberating them from the Nazis surpasses their support in the Revolutionary War - unless of course you think George III was worse than Hitler.
> Karl


Maybe "free pass" is a poor way of putting it - we don't often get free passes from anyone, and certainly not from the French, as a rule. However, I can't help but consider the ups and downs they have endured, and the contributions and sacrifices they have made over the years in the cause of democracy and freedom, and I believe that fundamentally they are one of our greatest allies, however much we disagree on the surface. And I firmly believe that rational, reasoned conflict between nations will ultimately result in a more secure world order than doglike obedience to American (or any other) dictates.

As a source of both political philosophy as well as military advice and support, the French were indispensble for the creation of the American democracy. This doesn't answer your question, but George III was far more important to American history than Adolf Hitler. He, in part, caused our existence. Hitler was never a serious threat to mainland America or our democratic institutions, despite the carnage he wrought in Europe.

Now I must go. The Zimmerli girls are calling.

Yours,


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## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> This easily wins the thread award for most supercilious and condescending statement. Good job!
> 
> Cheers


Et tu, Grasshopper?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

erasmus said:


> Et tu, Grasshopper?


If I ever gave you the thought that I was Brutus to your Ceasar, I would like to know how, so I do not repeat it.

Cheers


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> I just find it strange that France has devoted more efforts and resources to combating English than it has to fighting tyranny in the world.


Wow. Quite a statement here. Of course, I give you full credit that this is not a case of purposeless French-bashing but a valid opinion. By all means, just to support that credit, do give some precisions about that statement.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Here we go again. Always so disappointing when Americans prove true to type, or rather stereotype. Childish, ethnocentric, ill-informed, heavy-handed, etc. The worst of it is that these people carry guns...


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Rich said:


> Here we go again. Always so disappointing when Americans prove true to type, or rather stereotype. Childish, ethnocentric, ill-informed, heavy-handed, etc. The worst of it is that these people carry guns...


Try living in this madhouse.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Rich said:


> Here we go again. Always so disappointing when Americans prove true to type, or rather stereotype. Childish, ethnocentric, ill-informed, heavy-handed, etc. The worst of it is that these people carry guns...


One could say, "Back atcha" for being a stereo-typical Frenchie bashing the US. Also, I would rather die from a quick bullet than fry from a "discontented youth" (French PC for muslim teenage rioter I believe) tossing a Molotav at me.

Either way, I'm not American so have at it. :icon_smile_big:

What was this thread about again? The new 50% State owned French answer to CNN? Hey, more power to 'em I say. Just wait until they want even more French content though so pass laws causing foriegn owned companies not to want to advertise....oh wait, I was having flash backs to the CBC and Canada! I'll never forget when they gutted the local CBC by my place in about 1989 or 1990.

Cheers


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I just find it strange that France has devoted more efforts and resources to combating English than it has to fighting tyranny in the world.


Hahaha. So true.

It doesn't bother me since they are not good fighters anyway, but it does bother me how they undermine capitalism and free markets, the very thing their underperforming economy needs.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich and Etienne,

Thank God or whatever altar you bow before - the Fifth Republic, 35 hour work weeks, 3 hour lunches, 8 weeks of package holidays, the joys of unfaithful marriages, etc.(chose the god of your choice) that Americans are true to type - otherwise you'd still be a Third Reich puppet or a Soviet satellite. But given how many of your countrymen were collaborators (why even Mitterand himself was awarded Vichy's highest order - think Mazarine is proud of daddy's achievement and is Chirac still sending flowers to Petain's grave?) during the Second World War and that during the Cold War the French Communist Party rountinely received double digit support I am not sure a large portion of the French population would have found either proposition so distasteful. 

Etienne - I would be glad to provide you a reading list concerning French efforts during World War Two. My favorite nugget is how how De Gaulle, Petain and Darlan all initially thought the French should resist any Anglo-American liberation. Should I post it publically or just PM you?

Rich - I would wager any amount that I have a greater knowledge of Europe than you do the States. Are you up to the test? 

And Lushington if its so bad here and such a madhouse I suggest you buy two tickets in Espace Affaires on Air France (hopefully there wont be a strike at CDG or a work stoppage by the Muslim baggage handlers there) and seek refuge in Paris. Take Alec Baldwin with you.

Karl


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Etienne - I would be glad to provide you a reading list corcerning French efforts during World War Two. My favorite nugget is how how De Gaulle, Petain and Darlan all initially thought the French should resist any Anglo-American liberation. Should I post it publically or just PM you?


Please post publicly, I have not seen that.



> Thank God or whatever altar you bow before - the Fifth Republic, 35 hour work weeks, 3 hour lunchs, 8 weeks of package holidays, the joys of unfaithful marriages, etc.(chose the god of your choice) that Americans are true to type


You are hilarious Karl. God bless you.



> Take Alec Baldwin with you.


Please do. He promised to move when Bush got reelected after all.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

AF,

Here is a start:

Petain: How the Hero of France Became a Convicted Traitor and Changed the Course of History (Hardcover) 
by Charles Williams 
https://www.amazon.com/Petain-Convi..._bbs_sr_1/105-8333268-4306061?ie=UTF8&s=books

The Collaborator: The Trial and Execution of Robert Brasillach 
by Alice Kaplan 
https://www.amazon.com/Collaborator..._bbs_sr_3/105-8333268-4306061?ie=UTF8&s=books

Strange Victory: Hitler's Conquest of France 
by Ernest R. May 
https://www.amazon.com/Strange-Vict...ef=sr_1_6/105-8333268-4306061?ie=UTF8&s=books

The Fall of France: The Nazi Invasion of 1940 
by Julian Jackson 
https://www.amazon.com/Fall-France-...ef=sr_1_4/105-8333268-4306061?ie=UTF8&s=books

Marianne in Chains: Daily Life in the Heart of France During the German Occupation 
by Robert Gildea 
https://www.amazon.com/Marianne-Cha..._bbs_sr_1/105-8333268-4306061?ie=UTF8&s=books

Armageddon: The Battle for Germany, 1944-1945 
by Max Hastings 
https://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-G..._bbs_sr_2/105-8333268-4306061?ie=UTF8&s=books


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Rich and Etienne,
> 
> Thank God or whatever altar you bow before - the Fifth Republic, 35 hour work weeks, 3 hour lunchs, 8 weeks of package holidays, the joys of unfaithful marriages, etc.(chose the god of your choice) that Americans are true to type - otherwise you'd still be a Third Reich puppet or a Soviet satellite. But given how many of your countrymen were collaborators (why even Mitterand himself was awarded Vichy's highest order - think Mazarine is proud of daddy's achievement and is Chirac still sending flowers to Petain's grave?) during the Second World War and that during the Cold War the French Communist Party rountinely received double digit support I am not sure a large portion of the French population would have found either proposition so distasteful.
> 
> ...


+1 :icon_smile:


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Rich and Etienne,
> 
> And Lushington if its so bad here and such a madhouse I suggest you buy two tickets in Espace Affaires on Air France (hopefully there wont be a strike at CDG or a work stoppage by the Muslim baggage handlers there) and seek refuge in Paris. Take Alec Baldwin with you.
> 
> Karl


See what I mean?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

He's flushing-a-ton alright.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Lushington,

Tell you what if you agree to take Alec with you I will use my Delta miles to upgrade you two to First Class - and say what you will about the French, First Class on Air France ain't too shabby.

Karl


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Lushington,
> 
> Tell you what if you agree to take Alec with you I will use my Delta miles to upgrade you two to First Class - and say what you will about the French, First Class on Air France ain't too shabby.
> 
> Karl


See what I mean?


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> He's flushing-a-ton alright.


See what I mean?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Lushington,

Really check it out.

https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/loca...BV_EngineID=cccdaddjiiddfhdcefecekedfnfdfok.0

You and Alec could get a suite at the Georges V and spend your days sipping cafe au lait, reading Le Monde (Alec can read, right?), listening to Edith Piaf records (though you might have to tell Alec that Edith Piaf is not a rice dish) and counting the hours until Bush leaves office. La vie en rose indeed!

Admit it, sounds tempting doesn't it?

Karl


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Lushington,
> 
> Really check it out.
> 
> ...


Karl, what on Earth makes you think I wish to relocate to France? I love France and the French, but I'm not terribly keen on living there. And I loathe Edith Piaf, not to mention any and all of the Brothers Baldwin. Who in his right mind would want to listen la Piaf after hearing Sarah Vaughn? No, when I abandon these blighted shores it will be for Stockholm or _la Costiera Amalfitana_, or both. And it won't be a minute too soon. For the nonce, however, I shall remain in the belly of the beast; somebody's got to pay for my comfortable retirement, and it may as well be corporate America.


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*America...*



Karl89 said:


> Gents,
> 
> https://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=ayJZjR5OoaXA&refer=home
> 
> a nation that views *McDonalds, America and the English language as its real enemies*. Karl


Sadly... this view is shared around the world.

Believe it or not.

...from paris


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Should I post it publically or just PM you?


You should answer my question instead. Karl, I am not there to read you stalling our insulting. I have not interest entering in a contest "my country has done less wrongs in history than yours". What point would that kind of comparison have? Slavery versus collaboration? Indian Wars versus colonization? US supporting dictatorships in Southern America versus France supporting dictatorships in Africa? Ridiculous and pointless, and utterly irrelevant in a discussion about a news channel. Funny how any time you speak about France you revert to WWII.

You claimed a very precise thing. Let me quote.


Karl89 said:


> I just find it strange that France has devoted more efforts and resources to combating English than it has to fighting tyranny in the world.


 Now, please support that claim or drop it. Hint: you have posted a lot of material about French wrongdoings of the past, real or imagined. I will not even take time to rebuff that, even if I strongly suspect a lot of it is bullshit. For example, I cannot help but notice that none of your books adresses the subject of De Gaulle considering resisting the Americans.

The point is that it is all irrelevant to the discussion at hand. None of that is a list of efforts France has done "to combat English"' which is what you caimed.



Artisan Fan said:


> Hahaha. So true.


Ah. It seems you agree with Karl on that. I'll just ignore you comment about "bad fighters" since I know by experience how pointless it is to try and correct the distorsion of military history so frequent in the French-bashing that has become a staple of some parts of the US public. Let's focus on serious answers about the claims made.

Since you agree, would you care to give some elements which support that claim? What the hell are those efforts to "combat English" which dwarf the billions we spend in troops overseas to fight tyranny (Congo, Ivory Coast, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kosovo etc.)?



Artisan Fan said:


> You are hilarious Karl. God bless you.


Glad you find the French-bashing so pervasive on this forum amusing. I am personally starting to get slightly tired of it. Whatever happened to this place being a place for gentlemen discussing?

Tell you what, if that kind of behaviour is so amusing to you, maybe I should start doing the equivalent of what Karl and some others have been doing? Anytime somebody mentions the US I would utter insulting coments and references to a shameful part of US history. He chose WWII for France (discussion about a news channel? WWII! about an election? WWII, etc.). I could choose, say, the Indian Wars. I would then repeat ad nauseam. I trust that would an invaluble amusement for the people who have been appreciative of French-bashing here, would it not?


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Étienne said:


> Whatever happened to this place being a place for gentlemen discussing?


Despite the mielleuse description of it on the forum listing page, the Interchange has never been a place for gentlemen discussing. It is simply a siphon from the main Fashion Forum to remove political sniping and ill-informed animadversion to its own terrordrome.

Reasoned arguments -- of any persuasion -- generally have no place here.


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## Richie_G (Jun 19, 2006)

Tom72 said:


> Of course we Americans have more in common with the French than we have differences, certainly far more than either country cares to admit. Don't forget it was the French Army and Navy that cinched our freedom from monarchy in 1781 at Yorktown. The French have a free pass, in my book, for a couple hundred more years for that alone!
> 
> French Kissing? I am for it!
> 
> ...


 Not to mention French shoes:icon_smile_big:


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

I think it would be worth moving to France if only to go to the boulangerie for bread (OK croissants too) and have cafe au lait every morning.


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

And no one has yet used the term "cheese-eating surrender monkeys."

Will wonders never cease?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

fenway said:


> And no one has yet used the term "cheese-eating surrender monkeys."
> 
> Will wonders never cease?


I have only heard one person use that term and....he is a "French-American" and chef to boot (gastronomy being arguable one of France's largest contributions to the world...I would argue for that, them surrender monkeys can cook!).

Seriously, France is no worse nor any better than the US. Each has its good points and bad points. I think people in the US just have a special place for France as France is rather like the older, fading, bitter brother to the US's younger, more athletic, richer younger brother, and France never misses a chance to stick its collective finger in the US eye. The US responds in kind, when it can bother thinking of France, so it is not blameless too. If I was ever independently wealthy, I would certainly spend considerable time in France. Since that will never happen I will just eat foi gras here until they outlaw it.

Cheers


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

I work in Switzerland.

I shop in France.

I party in Germany.

I call Italy HOME.


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## The Wife (Feb 4, 2006)

> But I suppose you make the mistake of viewing everything French as suave and sophisticated - don't worry; it's a common mistake among dilettantes.


_Touché_, Karl!:icon_smile_big:


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Hi Jeanne,

see you have migrated over to the dark side :devil: 

90% of the threads I've read thus far (here) are pretty much roller coaster ones!


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Etienne,

I don't always revert to WWII when discussing France. I have been very hard on Mitterand, Chirac and the current French political establishinment. 

But you seem to think I am fabricating some of the accussations I make against France and De Gaulle, so I present my evidence.

So from Petain: How the Hero of France Became a Convicted Traitor and Changed the Course of History by Charles Williams 

(page 210 in my edition)

Caps are mine.

"In the early hours of Sunday 8 November, Allied troops landed at Algiers, Oran and Casablanca. On the same morning the US charge d'affaires in Vichy, Pinkney Tuck, called on Petain. Petain greeted him with the words:"Monsieur Tuck, I am deeply grieved by what is happening." Tuck made no reply, but handed Petain the official message from Roosevelt announcing the landings. Petain in turn handed Tuck the official French response. It was, he said, simple: "We are attacked. We defend ourselves." "Monsieur Tuck," he went on, "a long time ago we took the deicision to defend our empire; we must now do what we have said we would do. It is French honor that it is at stake." He then shook Tuck's hand and Tuck left - in tears.

Petain was not alone in showing defiance. At six o'clock on the same morning in London, DE GAULLE was woken by his Chief of Staff, Pierro Billotte, to be told the news. "WELL," shouted the general, as he put on his dressing gown, "I HOPE THE VICHY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THROW THEM INTO THE SEA. YOU CAN"T GET INTO FRANCE BY BREAKING AND ENTERING." He then proceeded to give Billotte a fortaste of what he would say to Churchill when he saw him. It lasted two hours.

Thus, the reaction of two Frenchmen, on opposite sides in the war, ws the same. The major question, at that point, was what each of them would do next."

And btw the author of this book was a former Labour MP in the UK and is generally symapthetic towards Petain.

Ok your other points - I would be hapy to discuss the sins of my nation, though I might rank slavery as worse than our horrid treatment of Native Americans. I actually support an official government apology for slavery, a federal museum dedicated to the history of American slavery and reparations in the form of tuition credits for economically disadvanted African Americans. So if you would like to discuss these issues I would be happy to.

Second, I don't doubt or disparage the great martial history of France prior to WWII. But a few years after Clemenceau stated that he would fight in front of Paris, he would fight in Paris and he would fight behind Paris France lost its nerve. They don't call the 1930's in France the "hollow years" for nothing.

You also point to current French military efforts as proof of French commitment to liberty. It can be argued and I would argue that French policy in Africa is one of the leading causes of that continent's misery. The "special" relationship that France enjoys with Francophone Africa has only been special for dictators and French business. The US is guilty of perhaps the more grave sin of indifference but there you have it. Please don't take any credit for Yugoslavia it was only US intervention in 1995 and 1999 that prevented greater problems. France and most of Europe did next to nothing while Yugoslavia burned. And the recent French habit of trying to bully the new Eastern European members of the EU is quite disturbing. Thankfully the Czechs and Poles have been fairly strong in standing up to Chirac's antics. Perhaps Sarkozy with his Central European heritage will be more diplomatic.

And RJMan sorry you find the Interchange so distatseful. Just remember we can't all celebrate and laugh about men who betrayed the Free World and collaborated with Stalin like you. But live and let live I say, unless of course you were somone executed bc of the Cambridge Five's treason, then your only solace is that RJman still celebrates those responsible for your deaths.

Happy Friday Gents!

Karl


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Rich - I would wager any amount that I have a greater knowledge of Europe than you do the States.
> 
> Karl


Maybe you do - so what ? Anyway, ethnocentrism is all about the things you don't know you don't know (Rumsfeld?).


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Rich said:


> Maybe you do - so what ? Anyway,* ethnocentrism is all about the things you don't know you don't know* (Rumsfeld?).


Not quite.

Main Entry: eth·no·cen·tric 
Pronunciation: "eth-nO-'sen-trik
Function: adjective
: characterized by or based on the attitude that one's own group is superior 
- eth·no·cen·tric·i·ty /-sen-'tri-s&-tE/ noun 
- eth·no·cen·trism /-'sen-"tri-z&m/ noun

I have to say, given this definition from www.webster.com, I feel more French are ethnocentric that Americans, as many Americans profess to experience great angst over the unworthiness and inferiority of the US while I have yet to meet a Frenchman that does not feel French culture is not the height of the world.

And to say "so what?" in this case is extremely funny, considering the charge you have leveled.

I am not taking side, as I posted above, but fair is fair and funny is funny.

Cheers


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich,

Wonderful Cartesian logic! How is it that you aren't a Government minister yet? Not an ENA alum? Your comments remind me of the great maxim of French bureaucracy - It may work in practice, but will it work in theory?

Karl


----------



## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Rich,
> 
> Wonderful Cartesian logic! How is it that you aren't a Government minister yet? Not an ENA alum? Your comments remind of the great maxim of French bureaucracy - It may work in practice, but will it work in theory?
> 
> Karl


Must be the cultural divide, but I don't see the relevance of your robust response. Let me put it another way - ethnocentrism comes from taking knowledge for understanding. 
But if wheeling out the old stereotypes makes you feel better, go ahead.


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich,

As slack American youth are known to say "Whatever..." But nevertheless glad this thread has you posting again.

Karl


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Étienne said:


> Tell you what, if that kind of behaviour is so amusing to you, maybe I should start doing the equivalent of what Karl and some others have been doing? Anytime somebody mentions the US I would utter insulting coments and references to a shameful part of US history. He chose WWII for France (discussion about a news channel? WWII! about an election? WWII, etc.). I could choose, say, the Indian Wars. I would then repeat ad nauseam. I trust that would an invaluble amusement for the people who have been appreciative of French-bashing here, would it not?


Very amusing. Manufactered outrage from a man that makes it a point to mock and ridicule people of faith at every waking turn.


----------



## Des Esseintes (Aug 16, 2005)

Gentlemen and others

reading through this thread should make it blatantly obvious to anyone who needs a reminder once in a while why politics, religion etc were never considered appropriate topics for discussion around any decent dinner table.

RJman said it all.

dE


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Des Esseintes,

We will put you down in the Form Over Substance camp. While you are at it, care to vote in RJMan's who was your favorite Soviet collaborator poll?

Karl


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Des Esseintes said:


> Gentlemen and others
> reading through this thread should make it blatantly obvious to anyone who needs a reminder once in a while why politics, religion etc were never considered appropriate topics for discussion around any decent dinner table.
> 
> RJman said it all.
> ...


Reading through this thread reminds me of what the biggest mistake Andy ever made on this great forum is, the Interchange.

But then again, this is not how Andy had ever envisioned it.

So perhaps the biggest mistake lies on the shoulders of the gents who have turned it in to what it has become. An appalling display!


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> Reading through this thread reminds me of what the biggest mistake Andy ever made on this great forum is, the Interchange.
> 
> But then again, this is not how Andy had ever envisioned it.
> 
> So perhaps the biggest mistake lies on the shoulders of the gents who have turned it in to what it has become. An appalling display!


This thread is fairly tame, except of course, that it is your ox that is getting somewhat gored. If you find it that appalling, the simple answer would be not to participate. I am impressed by your powers of telepathy though....but what does Andy think of you reading his mind? :icon_smile_big:

Cheers


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Z,

You are easily appalled. But if people disagreeing on an internet forum appalls you then what term do you use to describe how you feel about terrorism, AIDS in Africa, the situation in Darfur? Don't make language meaningless with hyperbole.

Karl


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> ..... I am impressed by your powers of telepathy though....but what does Andy think of you reading his mind? :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cheers


When Andy introduced this section of the forum, he outlined it as the place the ladies and gentlemen could kick back, have a cigar, a cognac and chat about things non sartorial. The manner in which some conversations, of very valid subjects, deteriorate hardly resembles "after dinner in the front room conversation", at least, fortunately for me, none that I have ever been exposed to.

But you are correct Wayfayer, 
it pains me to see such barbs being thrown at each other and I should stay out of the Interchange.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Z,

Lighten up a little. Sometimes the Interchange is a cigar and brandy affair and sometimes its a kegger. There is room for both I say.

Karl


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## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Disagreement is not the issue. It is the conduct and manner in which one disagrees that is telling. Telling on the character of the individuals involved. 

What is appalling is the utterly rebarbative logical infantilism, sneering jibes and inchoate vulgarity that passes for discussion on the Interchange - all this generated from "adults" on an Internet forum of all places. Simply precious. 

Perhaps some of you behave the same way to your spouse, family and friends? If so, then chalk one up for consistency at least. If not, this obsessive compulsion to deride, insult and attack complete strangers speaks volumes. 

Congratulations on offending Zegnamtl's sense of good taste. Well done. Touché!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

erasmus said:


> Disagreement is not the issue. It is the conduct and manner in which one disagrees that is telling. Telling on the character of the individuals involved.
> 
> *What is appalling is the utterly rebarbative logical infantilism, sneering jibes *and inchoate vulgarity that passes for discussion on the Interchange - all this generated from "adults" on an Internet forum of all places. Simply precious.
> 
> Perhaps some of you behave the same way to your spouse, family and friends? If so, then chalk one up for consistency at least. If not, this obsessive compulsion to deride, insult and attack complete strangers speaks volumes.


Sneering jibes? You mean, something like this?



erasmus said:


> Perhaps we shall continue this exchange at a later time if and when you are able to distinguish between mere doxa and logos. *The teacher cannot teach when the student is unwilling, n'est ce pas?*


As you say above, I hope you do not act in such a supercilious manner to your spouse, or are you merely inconsistent? Either way, I feel we have the pot calling the kettle black.

I have yet to see anyone firmly on one side or the other of this offer somewhat balanced commentary, such as I have attempted. Why do we all not admit that both France and the US have contributed much to the world, but that neither country is perfect, toast each other, and have a nice day?

Regards


----------



## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Ah yes, do read and cogitate over my post again in its entirety. You take offense where none was intended. But I suppose my humor is too ironic and my irony too subtle for the delicate sensibilities that haunt the Interchange.


----------



## The Wife (Feb 4, 2006)

Thank you for the welcome, Hedonist--this IS the Dark Side! :icon_smile_big: 
As one who lives in France a good portion of the year, I do find it amusing.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

erasmus said:


> Ah yes, do read and cogitate over my post again in its entirety. You take offense where none was intended. But I suppose my humor is too ironic and my irony too subtle for the delicate sensibilities that haunt the Interchange.


Ah yes, your wit is far to subtle for us crass denizens of the Interchange.

My god man, you truly are not overly burdened with insight but your self-esteem seems to be boundless.


----------



## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Ah yes, your wit is far to subtle for us crass denizens of the Interchange.
> 
> My god man, you truly are not overly burdened with insight but your self-esteem seems to be boundless.


Thank you for supplying a model example of a "sneering jibe". The unintended irony contained therein is bountiful indeed.

As for my own alleged example, please elaborate how a basic principle of pedagogy becomes a sneering jibe. I look forward to the explanation.

Cheers and happy holidays


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Erasmus,

I think Mickey Mantle's comments about Joe Pepitone could apply to you as well. The great Mick said of Pepitone "I wish I could buy him for what he's worth and sell him for what he thinks he's worth."

Happy Holidays to you as well. Perhaps you will get a clue for Christmas?

Karl


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## Duane Gran (Jan 14, 2005)

The linked article explains that the network being expanded broadcasts in both French and English, so the off-handed comment about the French regarding the English language as an enemy seems unfounded.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

erasmus said:


> Thank you for supplying a model example of a "sneering jibe". The unintended irony contained therein is bountiful indeed.
> 
> As for my own alleged example, please elaborate how a basic principle of pedagogy becomes a sneering jibe. I look forward to the explanation.
> 
> Cheers and happy holidays


Quite simple lad! To place yourself on such a pedagogic pedestal, automatically assuming we are the padawan to your master, is the height of arrogance, superciliousness, and elitest attitude. You of course further added to it by exclaiming how your wit is far too subtle for us'uns slow folk on dat der Interchangie thang.

Did I volley back in my second reply to you? Most certainly. I tend to treat others as they treat me, two such instances from you was enough to earn my scorn.

Cheers


----------



## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> Erasmus,
> 
> I think Mickey Mantle's comments about Joe Pepitone could apply to you as well. The great Mick said of Pepitone "I wish I could buy him for what he's worth and sell him for what he thinks he's worth."
> 
> ...


And perhaps a generous soul will bequeath you Twister to correct the gyrated inversions of illogic you seem prone to. After all, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Cheers


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Erasmus,

And as Dan Quayle said "What a terrible thing it is not to have a mind."

Karl


----------



## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Quite simple lad! To place yourself on such a pedagogic pedestal, automatically assuming we are the padawan to your master, is the height of arrogance, superciliousness, and elitest attitude. You of course further added to it by exclaiming how your wit is far too subtle for us'uns slow folk on dat der Interchangie thang.
> 
> Did I volley back in my second reply to you? Most certainly. I tend to treat others as they treat me, two such instances from you was enough to earn my scorn.
> 
> Cheers


You read far too much into things. Indeed, you presume to know my intentions better than I. Of course, there is nothing presumptuous and arrogant about that 

As for being a student, there is no shame in that. A whole person both teaches and learns at some point in one's life. After all, I believe you mentioned you were thinking of going back to school yourself?


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

erasmus said:


> As for being a student, there is no shame in that. A whole person both teaches and learns at some point in one's life. After all, I believe you mentioned you were thinking of going back to school yourself?


Talk about contortions of logic. How you derive that I implied there is shame in learning from my comments on your arrogant comments about being a teacher to us is just bastardized. No need to carry this further. You may prove your geniune desire for respectful conversation and I will return it, but no further need for endless posts dissecting some pretty apparent things.

Cheers.


----------



## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> Talk about contortions of logic. How you derive that I implied there is shame in learning from my comments on your arrogant comments about being a teacher to us is just bastardized. No need to carry this further. You may prove your geniune desire for respectful conversation and I will return it, but no further need for endless posts dissecting some pretty apparent things.
> 
> Cheers.


I have learned much in this exchange. Thank you for teaching me about the many sides of human nature and our proclivity to produce prodigious amounts of ad hominem posts


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

erasmus,

Why do you write as though you are being paid by the word? Although your mastery of a thesaurus is quite impressive, when writing, less is more.


----------



## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

whnay. said:


> Very amusing. Manufactered outrage from a man that makes it a point to mock and ridicule people of faith at every waking turn.


I have many shortcomings, but being a liar is not one of them. Rest assured that when I say I am outraged, the feeling is genuine and not fabricated. For instance, I am deeply insulted by the lie you just uttered, and that is not a posture.

This is, I believe, the second time you have accused me of mocking "people of faith". Once again, then, I have to stress that I never did anything of the sort on this forum. It could be assumed you misread my comments on the subject the first time you alluded to them. Since I clearly answered to you then and you continue your lies, the lies and the insult are quite clearly intentional. Shameful behaviour, sir.

For once, I agree with both Wayfarer and RJman. There's nothing to be gained pursuing a discussion with the forum's resident trolls, and probably very little to be gained in reading the Interchange. I shall vow, as an early new year's resolution, to refrain as much as I can from reading it. I don't think what I learned here on the diversity of insults and xenophobia that can be found in some parts of the American public is worth it.


----------



## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> erasmus,
> Although your mastery of a thesaurus is quite impressive, when writing, less is more.


Indeed


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Etienne,

You feigned shock and outrage when I pointed out De Gaulle's wish to resist the Anglo-American forces and even hinted that I had no proof of such a claim. When I offer proof you remain silent. At least be man enough to admit when you are wrong.

Karl


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

I believe it was De Gaulle who said "A country has no friends, only interests". Let's remember that every country's foreign policy is governed solely by its interests. France, the UK and the US have all supported and go on supporting foreign tyrants when their interests (real or perceived) are at stake (for the US we have had Pinochet, Galtieri and other S. American dictators, plus the Saudi royal family, for example, not to mention Saddam Hussein pre-Gulf War I). They then unseat them when their interests (real or perceived) demand it. It's a question of survival. The US came into WWII when it became evident that it was in its interest to do so, at mimimal risk (that is good foreign policy). Sometimes things go wrong, of course ("stuff happens"). The rest is national mythology.


----------



## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I can't believe this dialogue occured while I was asleep. I think we're giving the Germans a free ride here.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> You feigned shock and outrage


No.



> when I pointed out De Gaulle's wish to resist the Anglo-American forces and even hinted that I had no proof of such a claim. When I offer proof you remain silent.


Sorry to have left that matter standing. Indeed you had proof. Unconclusive, since nothing in what you quote denotes real orders or a real decision. But you had something.

Your turn. Twice now I have asked you to give some substance to your claim ("I just find it strange that France has devoted more efforts..."). You have not done so. If you were a man, you would admit that outrageous claim as just an insult and drop it. Or you could whip out some irrelevant bullshit and post it, that's the accepted way of discussing on this forum. Choosing to remain silent is not an aceptable option, though.


----------



## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> erasmus,
> 
> Why do you write as though you are being paid by the word? Although your *mastery of a thesaurus* is quite impressive, *when writing, less is more.*


May I make two corrections? I don't wish to be condescending or supercilious but would it be fair to say that I am more familiar with the contents of my library than you? To wit, I actually don't have a thesaurus in my library. Hence, my command of the English language is in fact my own. My apologies for any discomfort I have created.

Secondly, I do believe in the virtues of written brevity. As it appears you question my allegiances on this issue, allow me to suggest an expeditious resolution to the matter.

Do take a look at your post count and the date you became a member. Calculate the simple implied ratio of post production per day. Then do the same for my post count and membership date.

Comparisons are invidious but I like my ratio. Less is indeed more, as you say. The only caveat is that this thread has rapidly pushed me over the 300 mark. Time to cut back for the holidays as they say.

Cheers


----------



## erasmus (Sep 26, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> Etienne,
> 
> At least be man enough to admit when you are wrong.
> 
> Karl


May I point out a subtle, perhaps unintended slippage of ideals here? Challenging and questioning the masculinity of another man on a different continent thousands of miles away, while sitting safely ensconced in your home sipping a double latte, is, perhaps, not the highest expression of manhood. Just a thought.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Etienne,

If I wanted to take orders from a Frenchman I would have made my way to Marseille long ago and signed up for the Foreign Legion. Alas, I did not do that so I am not about to take orders from you. But tell me what efforts has the Fifth Republic made towards fighting tyranny? Throw out French policy in Africa as that has only reinforced tyranny there. De Gaulle's PAF which is essentially the current French Middle East policy? How many democracies has France tried to foster in the Middle East and how difficult has it made life for Israel (well at least you gave them Dimona and the bomb.) How much more complicated did France make winning the Cold War by withdrawing from a unified NATO command and having its own first strike nuclear policy? Yugoslavia? Please, the French are just cleaning up and holding down the fort after the US did all the heavy lifting. Perhaps had you really done something in 1992-93 then you could claim to be a relevant power but if you won't even stop hundreds of thousands of deaths two hours flying time from Paris then why should anyone take your commitement to liberty seriously? And while Afghanistan hangs in the balance France refuses to pony up more troops, especially when it could if it wanted to, send up to 20,000 more (though the French aren't alone in their stinginess with NATO.) And what has France done to help Iraq? I am not talking about the invasion, what has France done to help Iraq rebuild? Not much as the French elite are probably still smarting from the loss of income when Saddam was deposed. And Chirac has stormed out of meetings when someone has dared to speak English yet he regularly entertains dictators and threatens Eastern European members of the EU (not to worry though, Warsaw and Prague have enough history to be able to dismiss French threats.) Now you may find the facts to be irrelevant bullshit but there it is.

If you don't like what I say then change your country's policies. 

Karl


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Erasmus,

I don't drink double lattes. Diet Coke is my morning beverage/addiction of choice but that hardly conjures up a more masculine image. But I am comfortable with the love that dares not speak its name - the love of Diet Coke over coffee.

Karl


----------



## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Erasmus,
> 
> I just find it strange that France has devoted more efforts and resources to combating English than it has to fighting tyranny in the world.
> Karl


Come on, this statement coming from an educated adult is ridiculous. I'm not even offended. Why this neurotic contempt for France and the French? Insecure or something?


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich,

Please cite examples of the Fifth Republic's fight against tyranny. Now I have to go the airport to pick someone up - arriving on an Airbus A320 that you and Etienne helped subsidize (well perhaps Etienne was too young at the time to pay taxes.)

A bientot,

Karl

P.S. One thing that would be useful coming from you French speakers are instructions on how to add the accent marks for French names and words while using an English keyboard. Any sugestions?


----------



## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Most sensible thing I've heard all day, mon frer.

Alas, a rarity in the Interchange.

Best.



Rich said:


> I believe it was De Gaulle who said "A country has no friends, only interests". Let's remember that every country's foreign policy is governed solely by its interests. France, the UK and the US have all supported and go on supporting foreign tyrants when their interests (real or perceived) are at stake (for the US we have had Pinochet, Galtieri and other S. American dictators, plus the Saudi royal family, for example, not to mention Saddam Hussein pre-Gulf War I). They then unseat them when their interests (real or perceived) demand it. It's a question of survival. The US came into WWII when it became evident that it was in its interest to do so, at mimimal risk (that is good foreign policy). Sometimes things go wrong, of course ("stuff happens"). The rest is national mythology.


----------



## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Alas, I did not do that so I am not about to take orders from you.


And yet when it is I who take a few hours to answer to your post about De Gaulle you don't shy from demanding that I do so. How ironic.

I shall then die without knowing what are those mysterious "efforts to combat the English language" that dwarf all the diplomatic and military expenses France has made to foster democracy. A pity, since I would have loved to know how exactly it is you "combat" a language that dominates global trade, culture and political affairs.

Obviously your contempt of France is bordering on the obsessive. The sad point is that so few people on this supposedly "gentlemanly" forum disagree with it.


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Étienne said:


> The sad point is that so few people on this supposedly "gentlemanly" forum disagree with it.


"I don't like snakes, but I stay away from the zoo."

-- Unknown 1940s film.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

*Karl89*,

Take it easy buddy. I am with you on most of the politics, but France is actually a pretty nice place to visit, and they have really provided a lot of advancement to mankind: Science, engineering, art, literature, etc.

I stopover there frequently. I get no hassles about not speaking French, and most who speak English are more than willing to do so once they hear me butcher their language. There's lots of cool stuff to do there, and not just in Paris.

M8


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Étienne said:


> I shall then die without knowing what are those mysterious "efforts to combat the English language"


I can tell you one in Canada. It is known as "Bill 101" in Quebec. I am not nearly as familiar with France, but is there not something called the General Delegation on the French Language that levies fines for not comforming and letting English creep into things like packaging and/or newspapers?

Just for clarity in this acid laden topic, my only claim here is that two French speaking governments have indeed put legislation in place to protect the French language from the incursion of English. It is almost like language socialism.


----------



## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> ... I am not nearly as familiar with France, but is there not something called the General Delegation on the French Language that levies fines for not comforming and letting English creep into things like packaging and/or newspapers?...


Yes, there is an official government position on the use of French. I think this was started by Jack Lang, their culture minister at one time. However, notice he spells his name _Jack_ instead of _Jacques_.

In practice, however, nobody cares about this. I find France to be much more USA-friendly now than it was back in the 80's. The place continues to be one of my favorite destinations.

M8


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Martinis at 8 said:


> Yes, there is an official government position on the use of French. I think this was started by Jack Lang, their culture minister at one time. However, notice he spells his name _Jack_ instead of _Jacques_.
> 
> In practice, however, nobody cares about this. I find France to be much more USA-friendly now than it was back in the 80's. The place continues to be one of my favorite destinations.
> 
> M8


I do always get a chuckle out of this, as it is the English speakers getting called xenophobes in this thread  The US does not even have an official language and you can take your driver's license test in how many languages? I wonder how many are offered in France?

M8, no two ways about it, I look forward to my first trip to France. The food and history interest me greatly. However, we do have some overly sensitive things going on here :icon_smile_big:


----------



## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Karl89 said:


> Etienne,
> 
> If I wanted to take orders from a Frenchman I would have made my way to Marseille long ago and signed up for the Foreign Legion. Alas, I did not do that so I am not about to take orders from you. But tell me what efforts has the Fifth Republic made towards fighting tyranny? Throw out French policy in Africa as that has only reinforced tyranny there. De Gaulle's PAF which is essentially the current French Middle East policy? How many democracies has France tried to foster in the Middle East and how difficult has it made life for Israel (well at least you gave them Dimona and the bomb.) How much more complicated did France make winning the Cold War by withdrawing from a unified NATO command and having its own first strike nuclear policy? Yugoslavia? Please, the French are just cleaning up and holding down the fort after the US did all the heavy lifting. Perhaps had you really done something in 1992-93 then you could claim to be a relevant power but if you won't even stop hundreds of thousands of deaths two hours flying time from Paris then why should anyone take your commitement to liberty seriously? And while Afghanistan hangs in the balance France refuses to pony up more troops, especially when it could if it wanted to, send up to 20,000 more (though the French aren't alone in their stinginess with NATO.) And what has France done to help Iraq? I am not talking about the invasion, what has France done to help Iraq rebuild? Not much as the French elite are probably still smarting from the loss of income when Saddam was deposed. And Chirac has stormed out of meetings when someone has dared to speak English yet he regularly entertains dictators and threatens Eastern European members of the EU (not to worry though, Warsaw and Prague have enough history to be able to dismiss French threats.) Now you may find the facts to be irrelevant bullshit but there it is.
> 
> ...


Well to France's credit they have been one of our strongest allies from an intelligence perspective during the GWoT and have been a strong supporter in Afghanistan and parts of Africa.


----------



## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I am not nearly as familiar with France, but is there not something called the General Delegation on the French Language that levies fines for not comforming and letting English creep into things like packaging and/or newspapers?
> 
> Just for clarity in this acid laden topic, my only claim here is that two French speaking governments have indeed put legislation in place to protect the French language from the incursion of English. It is almost like language socialism.


There is indeed legislation that prescribes the use of French by government departments - there are recommended French terms to translate English words in new technology, for example computer jargon, business-speak and so on. No fines or other punishments though. There is also legislation that makes it compulsory for things like user instructions for appliances to be translated into French. All of which is perfectly reasonable. But no language police. Just some legislation voted in (most of it unanimously) by a democratically elected parliament. Quite often ignored and unenforced. 
At the heart of this is the issue of the right for people to be able to use their own language if they wish, and not have to learn someone else's.
The cost of all this is of course negligible compared with France's military expenditure in Afghanistan, say.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Rich said:


> There is indeed legislation that prescribes the use of French by government departments - there are recommended French terms to translate English words in new technology, for example computer jargon, business-speak and so on. *No fines or other punishments though. *


Not sure that is quite correct:



> According to the General Delegation on the French Language, more than 15,000 companies have been spot-checked for compliance since 1994. The biggest offenders in packaged foods, cosmetics, stereos and computers received fines ranging from $150 to $1,000.


https://www.discoverfrance.net/France/News/English_invasion.shtml

Source is a few years old, maybe that has changed. I could have sworn there were government mandated style sheets having to do with language issues too, along the lines of "hamburger" being disallowed with the preferece being, "patty du beuf" (I am sure I mangled that, my French is horrid). Again, I could be wrong on this too, even though it seems I was correct on the compliance fines from the General Delegation.

Cheers


----------



## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Étienne said:


> No.
> 
> Sorry to have left that matter standing. Indeed you had proof.


Proof of what? De Gaulle didn't oppose an "Anglo-American" liberation of France from the Nazis; he opposed Operation Torch, which was the liberation of French North Africa from the French. De Gaulle opposed this operation on both political and strategic grounds, and he may well have been correct in doing so. The American General Staff also opposed the operation, preferring instead to focus on a cross-channel invasion of occupied France; but Churchill convinced Roosevelt to pursue the North African sideshow. De Gaulle goes into this matter in considerable detail in War Memoirs:


> On July 23 [1940] General Marshall and Admiral King, both in London, again asked to see me. I saw them along with Arnold, Eisenhower and Stark. . . . ¶ Naturally I was in favor of a direct offensive in Europe, to be launched from England. No other operation would bring matters to a head. Moreover, the best solution for France was the one that would shorten the trials of invasion and hasten unification - that is a battle waged on the soil of metropolitan France. (_The Complete War Memoirs of Charles de Gaulle_, Vol. 2 _Unity_ (New York 1959) p. 312.


However, Churchill and Roosevelt had other plans:


> By the end of July I foresaw what would happen. Although their intentions were carefully concealed from us, it seemed extremely likely to me that the Americans would limit year's efforts to seizing North Africa, that the British would willingly comply with this plan, that the Allies would employ General Giraud in this accomplishment, that they would exclude me from the operation altogether, and that thereby these preliminary steps to our liberation, auspicious though they were from many points of view, would nevertheless confront us as Frenchman with inner torments that would raise fresh obstacles to national unity. (_Id._, at p. 317.)


Such proved the be the case. Roosevelt and de Gaulle loathed one another, a personal loathing exacerbated by the fact that the U.S. recognized Vichy as the legitimate French government. To drive this home, in the weeks leading up to Torch FDR unceremoniously snubbed a direct appeal from de Gaulle to recognize his Free French as the representative of French interests abroad. FDR further refused Churchill's request to at least disclose to de Gaulle details of Torch, writing:



> I am very apprehensive in regard to the adverse effect that any introduction of de Gaulle into the Torch situation would have on our promising efforts to attach a large part of the French African forces to our expedition. Therefore I consider it inadvisable for you to give de Gaulle any information until subsequent to a successful landing. You would then inform him that the American commander of an American expedition with my approval insisted on complete secrecy as a necessary safety precaution. (Quoted in Cook, _Charles de Gaulle_ (New York 1983) p. 160.)


As it happened, de Gaulle was given only three hours notice of the landings, and he more or less came unglued when he learned of them. Hence the comment to Billotte. Field Marshal Brooke sent de Gaulle a personal message telling him to suck it up, and Churchill and Anthony Eden were given the task of smoothing things over in person later that morning. This approach worked and on the evening of November 8 de Gaulle gave a radio address directed to the "leaders, soldiers, airmen, officials and French _colons_ in North Africa," urging them all to support and join in the Allied invasion. So de Gaulle hardly "resisted" the operation. He made himself a colossal pain in the ass in return for being excluded and ignored; but that's hardly unusual among political and military _prima donnas_. Montgomery or Patton, to take but two examples, were supremely capable of the same conduct if they thought they were underappreciated. It goes with the territory.

De Gaulle's comment that "you can't get into France by breaking and entering" was probably correct: the liberation of occupied France was not much advanced by amphibious landings in French North Africa - especially as the American forces kept the Vichy regime in place for another six months. Had Torch failed in November 1942 - had the British and American forces been "thrown into the sea" - there might still have been time for the Allies to prepare a cross-channel invasion for the summer of 1943 to liberate France, not French Algeria; and fight the Germans, not the Vichy French. But Torch didn't fail, and the second front in Europe was delayed by another year - and Vichy France was invaded and occupied by the Germans, with the loss of those strategic assets France retained after the 1940 Armistice: its fleet, Army, and Free Zone. Of course, de Gaulle hoped to avoid these losses, as they might prove useful to him and the Allies when the European invasion finally occurred. As Karl has read Julian Jackson's _France: The Dark Years_, he should know that the German occupation of France created an immensely complicated political situation, one which de Gaulle, a supremely political man, sought to navigate and exploit to his advantage; and in de Gaulle's mind his advantage was identical with France's best interests. As the Allies won the war one might question whether de Gaulle's enthusiasm for an early second front in Metropolitan France was the wisest stategy, but it was hardly irrational or duplicitous, and he really didn't care if it inconvenienced the U.S. or Britain. As he later wrote, "[T]oday as yesterday, there is only the interest of France to attend to." Such is the nature of war and politics.

Of course, one can't expect an enthusiastic fan of Ronald Reagan to understand the complex thinking of an unusually shrewd man such as Charles de Gaulle; but I can't imagine what Karl has against Marshal Petain. Petain made a deal with the Nazis largely out of his fear of Communism. As an apologist for Pinochet on the very same grounds, Karl should sympathize with the aged Field Marshal, not contemn him. And a good Catholic boy such as our furious Karl could get behind the National Revolution in a big way. Or so one would think.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Interesting and informative post, Lushington. This is a good thread after all.


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## The Wife (Feb 4, 2006)

Karl asked:



> P.S. One thing that would be useful coming from you French speakers are instructions on how to add the accent marks for French names and words while using an English keyboard. Any sugestions?


I keep an old print of the codes in my desk-drawer, Karl. I was able to locate a helpful site on the web just now, and it will help you. One needs to put "Num. Lock" on the numeric key-pad at the right of your keyboard, and then, while pressing an "Alt." button, type in a code. For example, alt+130 will yield *é*.

*Here is the link I found with information:*


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Didn't know fines had actually been levied (I wonder how many were actually paid), but I suspect it was for not providing consumer information in French, which is illegal (fair enough - the laws were voted in democratically). This seems perfectly reasonable to me because French-speaking people consider they are entitled to information in their own language, if only for reasons of safety (electrical appliances, for example). Still, it's no big deal. It's not war on the English language, or Canute ordering the tide to retreat. Just democracy at work.

The style sheets were only recommendations, I think - at least that's how they were interpreted. Many of the new French words have taken hold, actually, though a hamburger will always be a hamburger!

Beware of exaggeration, oversimplification, stereotyping and selective reporting that panders to readers' ingrained prejudices. If I believed everything I read in the media I'd be thinking Americans were all badly-dressed ignorant materialistic overweight hypocritical gun-toting sexually inhibited racists - or God-fearing upstanding clean-living neighbourly straightforward normal decent folk, and a shining example to the rest of the world, depending on the source.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

RJman said:


> "I don't like snakes, but I stay away from the zoo."


I shall endeavour to apply your advice at last and stay away from the trolls, lies and xenophobia.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

*Apologia pro Karl89*

TheWife,

Merci. I will endeavor to properly spell French words and names correctly now that I have your handy guide.

Etienne,

Just wondering am I a troll, xenophobe or a liar? All three perhaps? If you think I am these things then say so. I won't be offended though you would be wrong.

Lushington,

I did not read the Jackson book you mention but rather his book on the 1940 invasion of France. I am not an apologist for Pinochet but considering the alternative and the geopolitical situation at the time he was the lesser of two evils. Honest men can disagree on this point but suffice to say there were far worse and far better than Pinochet. I see that your comments disguise a thinly veiled anomosity towards Catholicism but alas you are not alone in that prejudice. But please don't for a second think I would align myself with a fascist movement. I don't like Petain bc he was a defeatist and made a pact with the devil. Paul Reynaud wanted to fight on and France was even offered a union with the UK by Churchill so that even if Metropolitan France was to be occupied, France proper would still have been in the fight, needless to say they refused. Also the refusal of the French navy and especially Darlan to sail the fleet to the UK or at the very least a neutral port was contemptible and led to Churchill's necessary and painful decision to sink the French fleet at Oran.

RJMan,

You seem to now wear some pious cloak of decorum and civility yet you have no problem querying the forum about who their favorite Soviet collaborator was. If such actions represent the mark of a gentleman than undoubtedly I will never enter your ranks. Btw who was your favorite victim of the Cambridge Five treachery? Perhaps you should be a true gentleman and remove that thread.

M8,

I have no quarrel with France, just certain aspects of French policy and history. I do enjoy France - even when when I am greeted with scowls by waitstaff when I ask for my drinks avec glace (ok this only happened once but it did happen!) I am certainly not a Francophobe as my paternal grandmother is Suisse Romande and my father was born in Switzerland and his first language is French. Mon francais est tres mauvais though. I still have some great aunts and many cousins who live around Geneva and Vevey. I even have an aunt who lives across Lac Leman in France. Though my critics would paint me as some unsophisticated, inexperienced rube I have lived in Europe(from 1999-2002) and still travel there regularly for business. In fact an impending job change will have me relocate there in the first quarter, though not to France. Am I hard on France and critical of it? Yes but only bc I feel that France and the US should be closer bc we do have common cause in so many issues. And some of the ant-American setiment in France is beyond offensive such as the book l'Effroyable Imposture which sold nearly a million copies. One might expect such nonsense in an Arab country but not in a civilized one like France. But for those who accuse me of Francophobia they should take a look at the bile of French critics of the US and how America is routinely portrayed in the French media - far worse than anything I have ever said about France.

But from now on, unless there is a specific thread related to WWII and a mention of France is relevant I will refrain from mentioning the French record during the war. If Etienne and Rich feel unwelcome bc of some of my comments than I sincerely apologize. It was not my intention to drive them away as they make valuable contributions to this forum. I don't think what I have posted is wrong nor have I made it a habit of personal attacks but perhaps I could have been more diplomatic. So for all my sins in this regard, real and imagined, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I do hope that the well is not so poisoned that we cannot once again discuss serious and complex issues on the Interchange.

Karl


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## lovemeparis (May 20, 2006)

*see no evil... do no evil...*



Karl89 said:


> "What a terrible thing it is not to have a mind."
> Karl


hihi:icon_smile_big:... Come with me to the DARK SIDE...:devil:

...from paris


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Just wondering am I a troll, xenophobe or a liar?


Everybody has his own definition of what a troll is. My own is that a troll is somebody who derails discussions with offensive comments on purpose, then fails to discuss rationally. You never answered my query for more substance to one of your most outragous francophobic claims with any semblance of serious information. Rather, you treated that query with contempt and deemed it an attempt to order you around. Indeed, you have entered the "troll" category in my eyes.

The only information you offered was information about some political details in WWII. Irrelevant to the discussion, but still it could be interesting. As Lushington's informed answer showed it was, as I suspected, a completely biased interpretation of the facts.



> If you think I am these things then say so.


I could mimic you and pretend to be offended because you give me orders. Instead, I answer (see above) even if I don't see how that can be useful to the discussion at hand (I don't like to make a discussion personal and I try to do it as seldom as possible, which is why my comments earlier were left vague).



> Am I hard on France and critical of it? Yes


The problem was that the criticism was biased, unfair and uncalled for. But at least I learned what is considered acceptable discourse in parts of the American public. Contrary to what you claim, I have never seen the equivalent in France (or in any European country I have been to) about the US.



> how America is routinely portrayed in the French media - far worse than anything I have ever said about France.


Wrong.

I'll let the matter rest here.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Merci. I will endeavor to properly spell French words and names correctly now that I have your handy guide.


The guide will work on a Windows OS, but it's rather cumbersome. If your OS supports it (I think most versions of Windows do) it would probably be easier to switch the layout of your keyboard from "US" to "US-international".


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

*Pinochet Kaput*

And we were just talking about the old scoundrel. This story has a good collection of file photos:

https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/10/MNPinochet10.DTL

The photo of he and Castro standing next to one another is classic:

Now there's a couple guys who look like they're enjoying themselves.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Lushington,

Lets discuss other scoundrels in the hope they to will soon die - the curse of the Interchange! So what do think about Kim, Mugabe, the gang in Khartoum? I won't get greedy, lets just see if the above survive the week.

Karl


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Lushington,
> 
> Lets discuss other scoundrels in the hope they to will soon die - the curse of the Interchange! So what do think about Kim, Mugabe, the gang in Khartoum? I won't get greedy, lets just see if the above survive the week.
> 
> Karl


Well, I've already put Fidel in play. He's not long for this world under any circumstances; but if he cashes out tonight, you might be on to something.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Karl,

I’m just going to write this off as to you having a bad week. May I kindly suggest in the future, best not to categorize all French and/or Americans fitting a stereotypical model. 

Btw, I’ve made a number of recommendations to your question about dinner question on Food/Travel section.


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