# Skinhead to 'Smooth'



## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

In my opening piece for the 'Skinhead' thread I recalled how the look kept moving on and how we attempted different innovations in our desperate bid to stay sharp.

We knew instinctively that someone, somewhere was moving further ahead. I noted that we got a wake-up call on holiday in Clacton on the North Sea coast at a holiday camp in July 1970. A group of Chelsea supporters had moved onto the next level. Still unmistakably Skins, they had nevertheless adopted a more Mod look again. Their trousers were slightly flared and their shirts - shock horror - were quite fitted and in one case appeared to be almost lacy! But their hair! It was getting longer.

But there were a number of things that seemed to stand in the way of our adopting the new look quickly. A lack of funds, a lack of knowledge about the new look and where to get it and the in-built reluctance to abandon our own carefully crafted style.

We did drag our feet I recall. I started a college course that autumn and I remember one lunchtime a visit to the local pub. I dragged one of my new college chums along to meet some of my old mates. Later that afternoon my college mate observed that me and my old mates all looked the same. Why is that? I asked. He said that we all had short hair!.

Slowly but surely we did move on and embraced elements of the new smooth style. Problem was it did not have the same status. It didn't really have a name at that time. However, assisted by the evolving Ivy Shop and Squire Shop and the new Village Gate we adopted a softer, rather more feminine, longer haired style.

In fact, by the end of the academic year in June 1971 there was some evidence of a change. My college mate and I again joined some of my old circle (which had now begun to shrink and break up) down the local pub. This time he again said 'you all look the same'. I asked why. He said 'you all have the same long hair'!! So, in nine months we had gone from having much shorter hair than the 'man-in-the-street' to much longer.

Here are a couple of pics from early October 1971. I was just 19. Note the clothes - nearly all from the J Simon's Squire Shop in Brewer Street. Cuffs turned back in the then approved style. Note also my lovely GF of the time who had also moved on from the skinhead look. In fact, that afternoon we were just off to London to get some new Autumn stuff.......


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Your resemblance to Tony Blair is striking. You're about the same age, aren't you. But I believe he was a Teddy Boy around then.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Wonderful text and photos, Brideshead!

Sorry to see this thread get moved here, since Fashion Forum regulars will have missed the original discussion (which is here: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=54755).


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

*The Village Gate*

What was the relationship between The Squire Shop and The Village Gate? The latter was part of a chain with different names for the branches but all sold an own label shirt called 'Cassidy'. The latter was my stepping stone to 'proper' shirts.

Trimmer


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Brideshead - Interesting memories came flooding back after reading your thread. I'm just a couple of years younger than you, but in 1966 I just caught the end of the mod look myself when I began to be influenced by classmates who had mostly adopted haircuts like the 'Small Faces' (parting down the middle) and wore floral shirts with long pointed collars, John Stevens hipster trousers and slip-on shoes ...and of course the regulation chunky identity bracelet, but I also admired the slick style of other groups like 'The Love Affair' in 1968 - remember 'Everlasting Love' - oh, everlasting memories!

From 1970 when I began at art college there were two highly defined camps - the grungy hippies or the smart skinheads - and never the twain mixed company, but there was strong respect between each identity because we all knew that for the first time in our lives we were expressing ourselves. I was rather individual because I was rather more 'shabby sartorial fogey' - yet wannabee hippie - but to this day my style is still remembered by my contemporaries!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Very Nice pictures.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

wonderful. very stylish.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

*Oh dear!*



xcubbies said:


> Your resemblance to Tony Blair is striking. You're about the same age, aren't you. But I believe he was a Teddy Boy around then.


Yes, about the same age and a passing resemblance - even today perhaps.

Trying not to sound pompous, I would say it has taken Tony a bit longer to find his 'style'. Without the help of his style consultants he would still be sporting a mullet, I expect!


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

*J Simons is the link*



Trimmer said:


> What was the relationship between The Squire Shop and The Village Gate? The latter was part of a chain with different names for the branches but all sold an own label shirt called 'Cassidy'. The latter was my stepping stone to 'proper' shirts.
> 
> Trimmer


I wish I could remember more about the names of stuff back then.

I recall a wide range of American BDs, 'Royal' Brogues, Plains and Gibsons, trousers under their own label I think.

BTW my trousers in the pics are from The Squire Shop, knitwear from Quincy/Jones (a very trendy London chain right up to a year or two back), loafers from a shop called 'Anglo American' I think - also in Brewer Street. Shirt I recall was from 'Take6 International'. I would spend just about all my money on clothes back then, having to borrow from my mum and dad to get through the month. As soon as pay day came around the whole circle started again. I don't think my finances have ever really recovered. That's Dandy behaviour isn't it??


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

Brideshead - I find it quite interesting, in retrospect, to question whether each of these styles remained a distinct 'style' for a definitive period of time or whether they constantly evolved and progressed without standing still for very long? I also question whether or not they were 'national' styles or styles with 'regional' differences and also whether they were solely influenced by the music industry? What do you think?

My first awareness of youth 'style' was as a ten year old in 1964 when the 'real' mods came to Brighton to smash up the deckchairs and fight the rockers. Then, by 1965, mod style had filtered into the mainstream clothing market and had become watered down and even slightly effeminate, which then seemed to become fused with flower power and all through the passage of time the hair just got longer and longer.

However, a couple of years later there was the abrupt arrival of the skinheads which kicked us all in the shins, but which again seemed to slip into the mainstream, becoming predictable and even made a style mockery of by 1972 (think Slade and Bay City Rollers here). Then, history repeating, there was the abrupt arrival of the punks in 1976 which spat us all in the face, but which as a style seems to have taken hold forever, but even this developed into a tangent with the goths!


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

V man what an eloquent post! I think these styles were short-lived and regional. I even wonder if some of the appellations, eg 'Smooth' were applied retrospectively, so brief was the currency of each one. I recall that after the Mod and Skinhead fashions had come and gone there was a profusion of different styles across the UK. I agree music continued to play a big part - Rod Stewart, TRex, Bowie all had an influence

But it felt as if we were searching in vain for a 'definitive' look that was always one step ahead of us. For me it was not a happy time style wise. 

Not until I visited Belgium in 1975 and noted there the very beginnings of the 'Designer' period, (which came later to the UK) did I feel a sense of belonging to any style of the early to mid 70s.

In his book 'The Way We Wore' Robert Elms spends a good deal of time examining the whirlwind era in question.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

The skinhead lifestyle kind of made clothes take over my life. I am really into vintage aswell, I just picked up a nice deadstock grey beagle ear collar shirt today.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

I remember the branch of The Squire Shop in Brewer Street and the Ivy Shop in Richmond. It was only recently I discovered they were linked.

They only really shifted shirts and shoes in large quantities. I did not know Ben Sherman copied their shirts. Ben Sherman had slimfit shirts (with the boxpleat sewn up and darts) by 1969. They were regarded as provincial by Londoners.

Shoes were the wing tips, flat tops and gibsons plus loafers, tassle loafers and tongue and tassle loafers. They never sold many Harringtons. The Millets copies had that market cornered - not Barracuta.

Mohair suits were from any number of High Street tailors, MTM rather than off the peg. I remember my brother getting a blazer made with patch pockets raised seams and an 'off-centre' vent. I suspect it is what is called a hook vent in the US.

Crombies, sheepksins and staprest were sourced elsewhere too.

Fashion was closely linked to the music. So when soul went psychedelic and those classic reggae tracks were not being churned out people looked elesewhere. I never went to Village Gate.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> I remember the branch of The Squire Shop in Brewer Street and the Ivy Shop in Richmond. It was only recently I discovered they were linked.
> 
> They only really shifted shirts and shoes in large quantities. I did not know Ben Sherman copied their shirts. Ben Sherman had slimfit shirts (with the boxpleat sewn up and darts) by 1969. They were regarded as provincial by Londoners.
> 
> ...


I worked for a guy named Bobby Garnett who owns one of the largest and most well known vintage clothing businesses on the east coast. He goes to England quite often to get stuff. If you drop his name at portobella most there will know him well, same at camden. But he has taught me a lot, so finding the original stuff is not hard at all. I got everything in my ward robe, Levi's sta prest, ruperts, shrink to fits, brogues, basketweave norwegians, oxblood dr martens, cherry red commandos, gibsons, loafers, crombie, sheepskin, fishtail parka, B-15 bomber, mac, ben sherman, fred perry, v neck jumpers, harrington, dog ear collar shirts, tonic suits (mainly off the peg), tonic trousers, a million ties, italian wool knit polos and jumpers, banlons. You name it. I also got a PX 150 vespa which I will post pics of soon. I also collect and am opening a shop in my basement. So if any of you older guys want to take a trip down memory lane and hop back into a pair of sta prest and american button down shirt with the little button in the back of the collar, let me know, I do stuff through pay pal.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

quazartkid said:


> He goes to England quite often to get stuff. ...I got everything in my ward robe.... ruperts


Getting the stuff in England sounds like doing it the hard way. I would have thought you would have much more available in the US. I suppose it is all circular.

I do not know what 'ruperts' are.

As for changes discussed above, it seemed to go to skimpy leather bomber jackets, Oxford bags and those horrible slimfit shirts with Charlie Chaplin printed on them -the Wigan casino style.

Budgie jackets named after the hero in the TV series of that name were also popular. Adam Faith the actor who played Budgie had some memorable last words before he kicked the bucket.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

Are any of you gentlemen familiar with "The Way We Wore: A Life in Threads" by Robert Elms? It covers a lot of this period with (to one who did not live through it) great aplomb. I recently completed my third (or maybe fourth) reread of it.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Anthony Jordan said:


> Are any of you gentlemen familiar with "The Way We Wore: A Life in Threads" by Robert Elms? It covers a lot of this period with (to one who did not live through it) great aplomb. I recently completed my third (or maybe fourth) reread of it.


Great read. The best book on English fashion since "today there are no gentleman" by Nic Cohn.

*W_B*


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

I know Robert Elms from his daily Radio London shows but I have not read that book.


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## J.L (Feb 3, 2008)

Excuse my U.S government issue ignorance but, what do you fellows mean by "skinhead"?


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> Getting the stuff in England sounds like doing it the hard way. I would have thought you would have much more available in the US. I suppose it is all circular.
> 
> I do not know what 'ruperts' are.
> 
> ...


yes well most of the things I listed we actully do get in the U.S. but he goes to get really old english made stuff that you can't get in the U.S.

Ruperts are loud POW checked trousers, named after the cartoon rupert the bear who wears em all the time.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

quazartkid said:


> Ruperts are loud POW checked trousers, named after the cartoon rupert the bear who wears em all the time.


Rupert actually wore windowpane check trahseez not Prince of Wales. :icon_smile:


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

either way, both kinds are reffered to as ruperts.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

J.L said:


> Excuse my U.S government issue ignorance but, what do you fellows mean by "skinhead"?


This


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## J.L (Feb 3, 2008)

Having since gone to the fountain of information, Wikipedia, I understand more perhaps. What I know as skinhead is a sad and perverted derivative of the original. 

I like your version better.

Not to hi-jack the tread but, I know in the whole Skinhead lifestyle over here they are big on "Laces and Braces" -their work boots and braces. Is that "big" in the version that you guys are talking of?

-JL


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

*If I may,*

'Ruperts' is/was the derogatory collective nickname by _other ranks_ for officers in the army.

@ JL, "what do you fellows mean by 'skinheads'. 
Depends who you consult, some thought the early manifestations were nationalistic thugs with little clothing sense, Levis with braces, Fred Perrys and Doc Martens, , , at the swimming pool!
Shaven heads had some relevance.

In fairness. as a result of reading the contributions in this thread I have discovered there was a really smart stream.

Whistle Blower, is that the Nic Cohn who produced 'Bomb Culture' a book I wasted a week of my life on in about 1969 ? or have I mixed up a Nick Cohen ? sorry if it's a daft and lazy question.

PS, Kingie, I went to C.James @ Ripley today because of your tip, more about that in another thread.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

Franko said:


> 'Ruperts' is/was the derogatory collective nickname by _other ranks_ for officers in the army.
> 
> @ JL, "what do you fellows mean by 'skinheads'.
> Depends who you consult, some thought the early manifestations were nationalistic thugs with little clothing sense, Levis with braces, Fred Perrys and Doc Martens, , , at the swimming pool!
> ...


Well they were all really smart, but after the NF bastards polluted the scene in the 70's it took a turn for the worse.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

BTW I just saw the english beat last night. They were amazing.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

Anthony Jordan said:


> Are any of you gentlemen familiar with "The Way We Wore: A Life in Threads" by Robert Elms? It covers a lot of this period with (to one who did not live through it) great aplomb. I recently completed my third (or maybe fourth) reread of it.


Great book! Even the cover is really cool










That pin through the top pocket was not only practical - it stopped the hank being yanked out on a Saturday night at Ilford Palais - but it also looked great.

Thanks for reviving the thread, guys.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Franko said:


> 'Ruperts' is/was the derogatory collective nickname by _other ranks_ for officers in the army.
> 
> @ JL, "what do you fellows mean by 'skinheads'.
> Depends who you consult, some thought the early manifestations were nationalistic thugs with little clothing sense, Levis with braces, Fred Perrys and Doc Martens, , , at the swimming pool!
> ...


I think I spelt his name wrong...

*Cohn, Nik*
Today there are no gentleman: The change in Englishmen's clothes since the war, 1971

*W_B*


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

Brideshead said:


> Great book! Even the cover is really cool
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't wait to get this book. I just took my crombie to get some velvet on the cuffs and collar.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

has anyone read these books? They have a lot of cool clothing reffrences.


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

quazartkid said:


> BTW I just saw the english beat last night. They were amazing.


Well that's just like us, think Dunkirk.

F.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

*¿que?*

wow...I've suspected as much for a while...but the fashion forum has really jumped the shark...

skinheads??? really??? okay, I understand the point of this thread; the movement started out as something different, yeah yeah yeah...but what's next??? a thread about the "good ole days" when the klan first started??? I mean I'm sure the nazi party had some charming elements and sharp dressers at its inception...

I guess I'm just an unrefined American and I just don't understand...but I really find glorifying a group like this in any permutation a very hard pill to swallow...now if you'll excuse me I have to go dig out my old red rag and start a post about how the Bloods were just a bunch of fun loving guys back in the day...


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

The Gabba Goul said:


> wow...I've suspected as much for a while...but the fashion forum has really jumped the shark...
> 
> skinheads??? really??? okay, I understand the point of this thread, it started out as something different...but what's next??? a thread about the "good ole days" when the klan first started??? I mean I'm sure the Nazi party had some charming elements and sharp dressers at its inception...
> 
> I guess I'm just an unrefined American and I just don't understand...but I really find glorifying a group like this in any permutation a very hard pill to swallow...now if you'll excuse me I have to go dig out my old red rag and start a post about how the bloods were just a bunch of fun loving guys back in the day...


Stay cool, err, Dude.

Not glorifying !

Just an an attempt to document and discuss, often with humour, a social and fashion movement from the many differing viewpoints of the eye witnesses to something that, , , *really happened, , , , really!*

Sorry, if a purer soul doesn't enjoy reading the threads, sorry about that sir.

F.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Franko said:


> Stay cool, err, Dude.
> 
> Not glorifying !
> 
> ...


...and like I said...I'm sure one could argue that the klan were a stylish lot back in the days too...

sorry but the way I see it, I dont need to "educate" myself about a violent, hateful, and downright ignorant group of morons...

...anyway...I wont get in the way of your cross burning party any longer...


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ...anyway...I wont get in the way of your cross burning party any longer...


Okay.
Sorry that's your take on it.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ...and like I said...I'm sure one could argue that the klan were a stylish lot back in the days too...
> 
> sorry but the way I see it, I dont need to "educate" myself about a violent, hateful, and downright ignorant group of morons...
> 
> ...anyway...I wont get in the way of your cross burning party any longer...


Oh, we are ignorant?

I bet you didn't relize that the first skinheads were black jamaicans? or that skinheads wouldn't even be around if it wasnt for jamaican culture and reggae music. If you don't believe me, I can give you a list of black jamaican artists from the 60's that even have skinhead in there lyrics. I can even tell you about Symarip, a black skinhead band from the 60's. Before you call us ignorant, why don't you try to listen and understand some truths about the world. You are ignorant. Infact there is a huge NON racist skinhead scene in america that purily imbrace the working class roots and listen to reggae music and dress very smart. I am part of that scene. If nazis come around we kick their heads in. Skinhead grew a racist conotation in the late 70's when the National Front high jacked the youth movement. If you care to understand and not be so ignorant look it up. Or read one of the books that Brideshead or I have posted. It will explain a lot to you.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

BTW take a look at the picture I posted of myself and my Girl Friend. Does she look white to you? No, didn't think so. BTW I am jewish.


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## forestcarter (Feb 11, 2007)

quazartkid said:


> Oh, we are ignorant?
> 
> I bet you didn't relize that the first skinheads were black jamaicans? or that skinheads wouldn't even be around if it wasnt for jamaican culture and reggae music. If you don't believe me, I can give you a list of black jamaican artists from the 60's that even have skinhead in there lyrics. I can even tell you about Symarip, a black skinhead band from the 60's. Before you call us ignorant, why don't you try to listen and understand some truths about the world. You are ignorant. Infact there is a huge NON racist skinhead scene in america that purily imbrace the working class roots and listen to reggae music and dress very smart. I am part of that scene. If nazis come around we kick their heads in. Skinhead grew a racist conotation in the late 70's when the National Front high jacked the youth movement. If you care to understand and not be so ignorant look it up. Or read one of the books that Brideshead or I have posted. It will explain a lot to you.


You are self consciously choosing to imitate a subculture from another time and country that has very different connotations in the US today than it did in England in 1969. Knock yourself out, but I don't think you have the right to get self righteous when people haven't gotten the memo.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

quazartkid said:


> Oh, we are ignorant?
> 
> I bet you didn't relize that the first skinheads were black jamaicans? or that skinheads wouldn't even be around if it wasnt for jamaican culture and reggae music. If you don't believe me, I can give you a list of black jamaican artists from the 60's that even have skinhead in there lyrics. I can even tell you about Symarip, a black skinhead band from the 60's. Before you call us ignorant, why don't you try to listen and understand some truths about the world. You are ignorant. Infact there is a huge NON racist skinhead scene in america that purily imbrace the working class roots and listen to reggae music and dress very smart. I am part of that scene. If nazis come around we kick their heads in. Skinhead grew a racist conotation in the late 70's when the National Front high jacked the youth movement. If you care to understand and not be so ignorant look it up. Or read one of the books that Brideshead or I have posted. It will explain a lot to you.


well...is that high horse white???

First off dont confuse Yardies/Rude Boys with that pathetic crew of neo nazi pissants...

I could care less about how they started, and yes, I do understand that in the old days there were even black skinheads...but, I mean,c'mon...there are plenty of examples; the P. Stones started as a neighborhood watch program and had some pretty positive roots before they became a major drug cartel and a threat to national security...as the saying goes the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions...call it what you want to call it, I just have to laugh at a forum where guys who post about wearing jeans practically get crucified but reminiscing about the good ole days of a movement who has become famous for their militant neo nazi views is considered hunkey dorey...either way I dont consider suspenders and doc martens all that stylish anyway...but by all means do what you do...perhaps next we could hear some wacky tales about those loveable SS officers during WWII...


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

For the full story I'd reckonend reading 'Spirit of 69.'

https://www.amazon.com/Spirit-69-Sk...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204702127&sr=1-1


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> I could care less about how they started, and yes, I do understand that in the old days there were even black skinheads...


But the great thing here is just that point. How things start. Understanding the history is the beginning of a true appreciation of clothing and style. Please try to separate the 'hype' from the sartorial aspects of the scene - if you have the mental capacity!


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

forestcarter said:


> You are self consciously choosing to imitate a subculture from another time and country that has very different connotations in the US today than it did in England in 1969. Knock yourself out, but I don't think you have the right to get self righteous when people haven't gotten the memo.


I don't see anything objectionable about someone adopting a style without adopting the ideology that came to be frequently associated with the style more recently, in the same way that I think it's fine for people running about wearing J Press when they are not Yalies or even an Ivy Leaguer of any kind, not to mention the fact that most Ivy Leaguers today don't even wear that stuff. Do you find gangsta rap fashion objectionable? I don't.

If one did not get the memo and starts rattling off in an uninformed manner, are you saying that the memo should be withheld from him lest the memo contain information that might contradict what he's saying? Perhaps the manner in which the memo was delivered could have been different but at the very least it seems to have been delivered in a like-for-like manner.



The Gabba Goul said:


> well...is that high horse white???
> 
> First off dont confuse Yardies/Rude Boys with that pathetic crew of neo nazi pissants...
> 
> I could care less about how they started, and yes, I do understand that in the old days there were even black skinheads...but, I mean,c'mon...there are plenty of examples; the P. Stones started as a neighborhood watch program and had some pretty positive roots before they became a major drug cartel and a threat to national security...as the saying goes the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions...call it what you want to call it, I just have to laugh at a forum where guys who post about wearing jeans practically get crucified but reminiscing about the good ole days of a movement who has become famous for their militant neo nazi views is considered hunkey dorey...either way I dont consider suspenders and doc martens all that stylish anyway...but by all means do what you do...perhaps next we could hear some wacky tales about those loveable SS officers during WWII...


The point about what the skins usually represent today in many parts of the world is well taken. I also appreciate the temptation to compare the skins to other groups like the KKK or the Nazis. That said, I think it's important to distinguish between groups that were born out of an ideological basis or any sort of purpose from those that were born out of a particular social class and regions with a common interest in a particular street style influenced by popular music. There were no intentions, good or bad. The oft associated far-right ideology only came recently, only after the initial lack of ideology, black skins as well as white skins, red boot laces to signal a marxist leaning, white boot laces to signal a fascist leaning and brown boot laces to signal no political agenda, etc. and finally, after decades of evolution, came to what you Americans quite understandably stereotype as being a bunch of fascist thugs. Even when the skins first developed a menacing image in the UK, they were simply a bunch of frustrated, rowdy bunch of kids without any unifying political ideology or purpose. This whole Nazi stuff came way later. You're comparing apples to oranges, mate.

Given your knowledge of the skins, or lack thereof, and penchant for comparing dissimilar things, I can appreciate how you may have come to find this thread objectionable. The thread is clearly about style and none of the participants have demonstrated or even hinted fascist leanings. As you say, just some old geezers reminiscing about their youth. Given the information presented to you thus far in this thread, perhaps not as gracefully as it could have been, why would you want to participate in this thread at all when you haven't any relevant memories to share, I wonder.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

*^ not so much of the 'old' thank you*

I think the intention of this thread was originally to demonstrate a link to Trad/Mod/Hard Mod/Skin, etc. It can be read in conjunction with the earlier one on AAAT as referred to by Doctor Damage above.

Take it or leave it guys......


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

OK, how about young-at-heart? :icon_smile_big:


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

*Thank you*



misterdonuts said:


> OK, how about young-at-heart? :icon_smile_big:


I know from experience elsewhere that these threads often come to this kind of debate in the end. I do understand why.

But I am only interested in style. I know you have to set it in some kind of context, but this thread is about style.


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## forestcarter (Feb 11, 2007)

misterdonuts said:


> I don't see anything objectionable about someone adopting a style without adopting the ideology that came to be frequently associated with the style more recently, in the same way that I think it's fine for people running about wearing J Press when they are not Yalies or even an Ivy Leaguer of any kind, not to mention the fact that most Ivy Leaguers today don't even wear that stuff. Do you find gangsta rap fashion objectionable? I don't.


I tend to dress conservatively, and occasionally this will mean a 3 button sack, rep tie etc. Most people wouldn't say I'm dressing trad, they just think I'm dressing conservatively, and I tend to get compliments on the way I dress, so that's why I do it. Although my dad grew up in Princeton and went to Harvard in the late 50s, he is far from "Trad." He gets most of clothes from Brooks Brothers and J Press. I don't think he thinks about what he wears at all, that's just what he gets.

This is quite different from the skinhead look--which is meant to stick out, rather than blend in. Now were I to be wearing nantucket reds, boat shoes etc. and something extremely preppy (which I don't do, unless it is for a horse race or something like that) I wouldn't be offended if someone thought I was some rich waspy type.

There was a time that I was very much into early ska and reggae music (I still like it, just don't spend much time thinking about it) so I actually know a bit about the genesis of skinheads and rude boys.

The skinhead types is that they were always violent hooligans--"racist" or not. Last I checked most of the Nazi skinheads aren't about to invade the Rhineland, so I don't see how them starting stupid fights is any worse than the original skinheads who were beating up hippies, starting soccer riots etc. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that the original "spirit of 69" skinheads did a lot more "hate crimes" in terms of beating up pakistani immigrants than all of the nazi skinheads today. In fact our resident skinhead here, seems to relish in his beating up nazis. Again, I could care less what someone wants to dress like, but I find it a bit ironic that people who imitate a violent youth cult get upset when people have negative first impressions, and feel the need to prove how cuddly they really are.

As for "rude boys" as far as I know, the original meaning in Jamaica meant gangster, so again, I don't see how they are some group we are supposed to look up to.

As for gangster rap, if some blacks who aren't criminals want to dress like gangsters, that's their perogative. But they shouldn't get upset when they get "Racially profiled" for dressing like criminals.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Brideshead said:


> I know from experience elsewhere that these threads often come to this kind of debate in the end. I do understand why.
> 
> But I am only interested in style. I know you have to set it in some kind of context, but this thread is about style.


Unfortunately it seems to be a waste of time trying to answer the types with fixed views who just muscle in on the thread.

They will have their own idea of what the style is/was.

They will have no experience of, or interest in, what it was at the time. I never had machined hair. I had a crop. I never had boots or braces, but I had all the shoes, shirts, suits, harringtons, Crombies etc.,etc.

Interlopers will see skinhead and think aggro - or its US equivalent.

Either that, or they will consider it infra dig. Working class ruffians and old gits who used to be working class ruffians upsetting their refined sensibilities.

It is not worth getting into flame wars with people, which is a good reason to be careful with interchange and many subjects featured there. Having said that, there are people browsing around just looking for reasons to take offence on all the fora.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

All shoes in The Squire Shop and Ivy Shop were seven guineas. I always thought loafers should be cheaper, as they were not so substantial.

All the American shirts were 69 shillings and sixpence in real money. Those are among the few prices I remember.

Six shillings and eight pence for a 45rpm single(three for a pound) and thirty shillings and sixpence for an LP - more than I would earn for a full Saturday working in Woolworths.:icon_smile:


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

The Gabba Goul said:


> well...is that high horse white???
> 
> First off dont confuse Yardies/Rude Boys with that pathetic crew of neo nazi pissants...
> 
> I could care less about how they started, and yes, I do understand that in the old days there were even black skinheads...but, I mean,c'mon...there are plenty of examples; the P. Stones started as a neighborhood watch program and had some pretty positive roots before they became a major drug cartel and a threat to national security...as the saying goes the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions...call it what you want to call it, I just have to laugh at a forum where guys who post about wearing jeans practically get crucified but reminiscing about the good ole days of a movement who has become famous for their militant neo nazi views is considered hunkey dorey...either way I dont consider suspenders and doc martens all that stylish anyway...but by all means do what you do...perhaps next we could hear some wacky tales about those loveable SS officers during WWII...


Perhaps you don't want to understand or except that skinhead is not a racist subculture. I hang out with skinheads, my best mate is a black skinhead. We listen to reggae music and motown and what have you. We are traditional skinheads. There are millions world wide. In every city of every continent. There are also those who try to pervert and ruin our scene with politics and racsist nonsense. We have none of it. We are discussing the real skinhead subculture in this forum not the grossly misinterperated off shoot ideals that you see on the news. There are many books and things writen about the traditional skinhead scene to date. I'd say now more then ever our scene is growing again and it is more well known that the majority of skinheads are not racist at all. If you choose to compare this conversation to one of kkk members and SS officers, then you are being rediculously ignorant, and like others have said you are comparing apples and oranges. You are talking about a completely different sub culture all together. I don't know that I can make it much clearer then that. If you still choose to compare this thread to speaking of SS officers then you have no cappacity for taking in information at all and should probably go jump off a cliff or something.


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## quazartkid (Feb 27, 2008)

that being said

I actully love brooks brothers and J press and I do believe that there is a lot of similarities in the whole suedehead smoothie look to that of the Ivy Leaguers who wear those brands.


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