# sociopaths



## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

So i'm watching the news and a story comes on about a 19-yo college kid in Kutztown PA who was walking home from a party and was attacked by 3 men roughly his own age. The men later reported that they had been drinking at a local bar and were trolling the streets looking for someone to hurt. In the end, they beat this poor kid to death for absolutely no reason at all. Working in mental health and recently having exposure to socipathic individuals I am as enthralled by them as I am disgusted. I can certainly comprehend killing under certain circumstances, rage, revenge, self-protection, but I cannot for the life of me understand how some individuals can kill at will, with no motive, and no moral compass to deter them from doing so. Many point to experiences of abuse in childhood to explain such behavior, however, many people live through abuse and do not go on to perpetrate against others or engage in antisocial/sociopathic behavior. 

I suppose this topic is a little dark for the interchange but I thought it would be a provocative topic to bat around a bit.
I'm curious what you all think.

MrR


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Random acts of violence occur every day, in all parts of the world.

Write the station who covered this story and ask them why they did.

Got the bubble headed bleach blonde, comes on at 5
She can tell you bout the plane crash with a gleam in her eye
It's interesting when people die
Eat your dirty laundry


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Well, no few people are just plain no good.

Still, this sounds so random and gratuitous it does seem very surprising. You are absolutely sure there were no "reasons"--however bad they might be? I am thinking of things like racial antipathy or homophobia, something like that.

P.S. After looking into the matter, it sounds as if the perps were more into "recreational fighting" than actually seeking out someone to murder. Recreational fighting (outside of a controlled, sporting environment, e.g., boxing, wrestling, martial arts) has always struck me as a crazy way to get one's kicks (pun unintentional), but it does seem fairly common in some masculine subcultures.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> P.S. After looking into the matter, it sounds as if the perps were more into "recreational fighting" than actually seeking out someone to murder. Recreational fighting (outside of a controlled, sporting environment, e.g., boxing, wrestling, martial arts) has always struck me as a crazy way to get one's kicks (pun unintentional), but it does seem fairly common in some masculine subcultures.


I dunno...I mean, we did the whole fight club thing when I was in High School, and we still had rules, we might randomly attack each other in public, but never strangers, and never with the intention of really "hurting" the other guy (not to say we all didnt get scraped/bruised up from these attacks, but if somebody saw that you were defensless, or didn't really have any fight in you and were at risk of being seriously injured, the fight was over), it was more about catching the other guy by surprize...the hunt, if you will...

Now, to me (and I'm by no means an expert in this, I did take a few psych classes, but it never really did liught my fire), a case like this is just a matter of punks who were wired wrong in the factory...I believe that people like that don't have any place in society, and should be "put down" just as you would a rabid animal, so they no longer present a danger to others...


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Now, to me (and I'm by no means an expert in this, I did take a few psych classes, but it never really did liught my fire), a case like this is just a matter of punks who were wired wrong in the factory...I believe that people like that don't have any place in society, and should be "put down" just as you would a rabid animal, so they no longer present a danger to others...


One of the real benefits of our advancing understanding genetics is that we are arriving at the place of foreknowledge. We will soon be able to tell in the womb that the child is psychologically wrong-wired and force an abortion. We can also sterilize, or perhaps, "put down" the parents so that there are no more possiblities of this recurring. Since at some near point we will have a national genetic database, we can then systematically weed out those who might potentially breed "wrong-wired" offspring. What a perfect society we'll have.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

MrRogers said:


> So i'm watching the news and a story comes on about a 19-yo college kid in Kutztown PA who was walking home from a party and was attacked by 3 men roughly his own age. The men later reported that they had been drinking at a local bar and were trolling the streets looking for someone to hurt. In the end, they beat this poor kid to death for absolutely no reason at all. Working in mental health and recently having exposure to socipathic individuals I am as enthralled by them as I am disgusted. I can certainly comprehend killing under certain circumstances, rage, revenge, self-protection, but I cannot for the life of me understand how some individuals can kill at will, with no motive, and no moral compass to deter them from doing so. Many point to experiences of abuse in childhood to explain such behavior, however, many people live through abuse and do not go on to perpetrate against others or engage in antisocial/sociopathic behavior.
> 
> I suppose this topic is a little dark for the interchange but I thought it would be a provocative topic to bat around a bit.
> I'm curious what you all think.
> ...


Not all sociopaths are violent, but they all share a complete lack of empathy and sooner or later, if you let them into your life, that will bite you hard. You find them everywhere, from the Serial Killer Hall of Fame, to neighborhood associations, to family reunions, even our on line community! They are a class of people who I have had to think about a lot and in doing so found a great book on the subject, "The Sociopath Next Door." I just googled it and found this review which sums up " sociopathy":

here's another:

https://www.curledup.com/sociopat.htm


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

Just found this link to an interview with Stout with her 13 rules for dealing with a sociopath:

https://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/index.cfm?author_number=1097


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Liberty Ship said:


> Not all sociopaths are violent, but they all share a complete lack of empathy and sooner or later, if you let them into your life, that will bite you hard. You find them everywhere, from the Serial Killer Hall of Fame, to neighborhood associations, to family reunions. They are a class of people who I have had to think about a lot and in doing so found a great book on the subject, "The Sociopath Next Door." I just googled it and found this review which sums up " sociopathy":
> 
> here's another:
> 
> https://www.curledup.com/sociopat.htm


Gosh, if I had just had this review, and a few others dealing with different issues in psychopathy, I could have saved years of graduate school and many tens of thousands of dollars. All I needed to do was to read reviews which "summed up" sociopathy, etc...

Truth be told, I had classmates and colleagues who I think did just that.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Random acts of violence occur every day, in all parts of the world.
> 
> Write the station who covered this story and ask them why they did.
> 
> ...


I will remember you of that when you start moaning again about the killing of some islamist thugs in the Middle East etc...


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

rip said:


> Gosh, if I had just had this review, and a few others dealing with different issues in psychopathy, I could have saved years of graduate school and many tens of thousands of dollars. All I needed to do was to read reviews which "summed up" sociopathy, etc...
> 
> Truth be told, I had classmates and colleagues who I think did just that.


If what you are saying is that it is impossible to condense years of accumulated knowledge and experience in to a useful survival manual for a lay person, or to even give advice to a lay person, I would have to disagree. I really don't understand the point of your comment.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> You are absolutely sure there were no "reasons"--however bad they might be? I am thinking of things like racial antipathy or homophobia, something like that.


I think that your reaction is typical to most and certainly mine when I heard the story. We assume that something is missing (altercation in bar, who felt up whose girlfriend), but even so, I dont "get" how not only was this a truly random act but how such individuals can take it to the point that they did. Not to be gory, but assume the guy was knocked out early on and was found shortly after in a pool of his own blood. At what point is there no cognitive interception that says, enough is enough. Assuming they didnt hit the kid and not realize the dire shape he was in as a result, but it seems unlikely.

I have to agree with Gabba that something is fundamentally wrong with such individuals from early on but what exactly that is, i dont know.

MrR


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

rip said:


> Gosh, if I had just had this review, and a few others dealing with different issues in psychopathy, I could have saved years of graduate school and many tens of thousands of dollars. All I needed to do was to read reviews which "summed up" sociopathy, etc...


And you would have _made_ tens of thousands of dollars in writing this sort of stuff and selling it to the general public.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Liberty Ship, your link above was really informative!


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> Random acts of violence occur every day, in all parts of the world.
> 
> Write the station who covered this story and ask them why they did.


Thanks for the insight Frank, I had no idea this type of thing was common. Forgive those of us who enjoy engaging in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding.

MrR


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

MrRogers said:


> The men later reported that they had been drinking at a local bar and were trolling the streets looking for someone to hurt. In the end, they beat this poor kid to death for absolutely no reason at all.


MrR,

Additional to a twisted psychological structure, I could imagine that the consumption of alcohol and simple boredom had been a contributing factor. I am not familiar with the economic situation of the neighbourhood you are talking about. However, at least in Europe it happens all the time that certain youths in uncivilized areas drink all the time (welcome to happy welfare land). When they are drunk, they still feel bored and the easiest way for them to get some thrill is to beat or kill someone...

Just enter "Happy Slapping" into google.co.uk...

Best,
A.


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## burnedandfrozen (Mar 11, 2004)

I'm certainly no expert but I cannot help but think there are always signs. Maybe these kids as individuals when they were younger tortured animals, had run-ins with the law ect. Maybe they went in for counseling or maybe they didn't. Whatever the case, several of them get together which makes them feel stronger and makes them feel less responsible at least on the individual level then add booze and well this is what happens. I guess some people are more in touch with the inner savage that we once were then others.

I remember when the Central Park jogger news hit. These days, it's hardly a front page story. Sad.

I also recall hearing about a group of blacks that beat a white man (or woman I cannot remember) and having to dig for any info on it. However, had it been a group of white people beating a black, well, that's all the papers would be running.


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## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

They are some scary people.

A girl who ran in my circles in college was a full-blown case of sociopathy. Watching her manipulation in action was just amazing to me. She was the master, a product of sociopathy and abnormal intelligence. What really amazed me was almost everyone's inability to see her for the evil whore she was. Even after severely mistreating several of the friends, she managed to get a pass and in some cases even draw in other friends as parties to the misdeeds. She was charming and spontaneous, though, and had a way of making you feel like you're the center of the universe. Over the course of four years, most people eventually came to share my opinion, as she sabotaged some aspect of their lives one by one. 

The twisted things I observed her doing are just too many to begin listing. Just think of the ways you can cause a person pain and she's been there.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Another good argument for concealed carry laws. May not have saved this poor guy, but it might rid the world of a few sociopaths now and again if they mess with someone carrying a weapon.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Albert said:


> I will remember you of that when you start moaning again about the killing of some islamist thugs in the Middle East etc...


This is an apt comment for this thread, since the killing of many Islamist thugs in the middle east was generated by the sociopath-in-chief.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

gnatty8 said:


> Another good argument for concealed carry laws. May not have saved this poor guy, but it might rid the world of a few sociopaths now and again if they mess with someone carrying a weapon.


Right! and of course, no sociopaths will be carrying.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Albert said:


> MrR,
> 
> Additional to a twisted psychological structure, I could imagine that the consumption of alcohol and simple boredom had been a contributing factor. I am not familiar with the economic situation of the neighbourhood you are talking about. However, at least in Europe it happens all the time that certain youths in uncivilized areas drink all the time (welcome to happy welfare land)


more likely, welcome to happy, out-of-work land because there aren't enough jobs.


> When they are drunk, they still feel bored and the easiest way for them to get some thrill is to beat or kill someone...
> 
> Just enter "Happy Slapping" into google.co.uk...
> 
> ...


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

rip said:


> This is an apt comment for this thread, since the killing of many Islamist thugs in the middle east was generated by the sociopath-in-chief.


I assume you are referring to either Adolf, Ratzinger or G.W.B. (or all of them together). No mention, of course, of Saddam, Osama or Al Jazeera.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

rip said:


> more likely, welcome to happy, out-of-work land because there aren't enough jobs.


Without welfare, these kids wouldn't be able to hang around on the streets and consume alcohol. They would either get some job they don't necessary want to do or move to some other area.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

rip said:


> This is an apt comment for this thread, since the killing of many Islamist thugs in the middle east was generated by the sociopath-in-chief.


Sociopath-in-chief? Bush Derangement Syndrome knows no bounds.


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

rip said:


> Right! and of course, no sociopaths will be carrying.


I suppose sociopaths will wait for concealed carry laws to be passed, then wait in line, pay their fee, and apply for a permit like everybody else?

The sociopaths are already carrying weapons where I live. You must live in an extraordinary place if they are waiting for those laws to take effect before they start packing their handguns.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Sometimes I think society is no more than a Lewis Carrol nightmare and I'm being stretched and shrunk, half drowned and talking to hookah smoking caterpillars. I don't know what scared me more; driving a bobcat van in Compton to exchange a lousy mattress set for the company bookeeper who turned on me for declining an invitation to Promise Keepers, the gangbangers cruising next to me that day, or the fruitcakes at the Ventura Gunshow after considering an upgrade of my Walther PP.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Kav said:


> Sometimes I think society is no more than a Lewis Carrol nightmare and I'm being stretched and shrunk, half drowned and talking to hookah smoking caterpillars. I don't know what scared me more; driving a bobcat van in Compton to exchange a lousy mattress set for the company bookeeper who turned on me for declining an invitation to Promise Keepers, the gangbangers cruising next to me that day, or the fruitcakes at the Ventura Gunshow after considering an upgrade of my Walther PP.


You didn't go to Promise Keepers? That explains everything!


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Albert said:


> I assume you are referring to either Adolf, Ratzinger or G.W.B. (or all of them together). No mention, of course, of Saddam, Osama or Al Jazeera.


I didn't even mention the ones you mentioned. But hey, why confuse yourself with reality when your fantasy is so well developed.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Liberty Ship said:


> If what you are saying is that it is impossible to condense years of accumulated knowledge and experience in to a useful survival manual for a lay person, or to even give advice to a lay person, I would have to disagree. I really don't understand the point of your comment.


Aimed solely at the use of the phrase, "summed up". Antisocial Personality Disorder is quite a complex subject, one which our understanding of is constantly unfolding and developing, but the reader of a "survival Manual" probably wouldn't know the latest research on the subject. They would only have their manual, and my experience has been that most people do not replace books just because a later edition comes out, so their view of sociopathy remains rooted in the past.

In the instance of this particular work, she (the author) holds as "the gold standard for diagnosing mental disorders", the DSM-IV, whose section on Antisocial Personality Disorder has, from the time of its publication, come under severe critical fire from a very large segment of the profession for its broad strokes and most particularly, its overly-inclusive criteria. It's a pretty standard judgement call that if you include everything, its just as good as having included nothing. If this is an example of what the condensation of "years of accumulated knowledge, etc..." looks like, then it reinforces my vehement NO!

But, unless you misspoke, the "summing up" your post refers to wasn't even a survival manual, it was a review of a survival manual or, more accurately, a review of one person's experiences in dealing with sociopaths, arguably a useful addition to one's library about the field, but certainly not useful as a "survival manual for the layman" (IIRC, I have about 9 or 10 volumes just on APD and the related psychopathies, plus dozens, if not hundreds of journal articles and monographs accumulated over the years. It's the only way of not staying static in a dynamic field). There's a saying I heard once that has a lot of truth in it, "You wouldn't recognize a sociopath if he bit you in the ass, and just because he bit you in the ass doesn't mean he's a sociopath".


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

rip said:


> I didn't even mention the ones you mentioned. But hey, why confuse yourself with reality when your fantasy is so well developed.


Sorry, I was referring to another thread (which might have gone unnoticed). Frankie had some interesting participation there.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

I thought this topic said "hociopaths". Not to be confused with hocialites.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip, thanks for another "rip'ing" thread! Defending murderous sociopaths and berating someone for relying on the DSM when speaking of a psych dx is possibly a new height even for you!


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Come on, we are giving murderous sociopaths a bad name here!!

I think we should have a "Take a murderous sociopath to work" day.

How is vacation working out, Wayfarer??


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Violence occurs almost every day so you never know what's going to happen when you walk out that door.There's a bunch of crazies and that's why you've got to watch your back these days.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Howard, maybe if you study long and hard, you could be a sociopath.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> rip, thanks for another "rip'ing" thread! Defending murderous sociopaths and berating someone for relying on the DSM when speaking of a psych dx is possibly a new height even for you!


You are, once again, displaying your remarkably ignorance and inability to actually read. If you can find your way back to that thread, you will find that what I "dissed", along with just about everyone else in the profession, was the excessive inclusiveness of the particular diagnostic criteria relating to APD, antisocial personality disorder. Perhaps, once you graduate from high school (though with your reading deficiency, that might be a very long time. I don't guess they give social promotions any more), you'll be able to sort out some of this. Hey, we can always hope.


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## jcriswel (Sep 16, 2006)

*9/11*

I've had a few experiences here in the Interchange since my involvment with AAAC and I can say they have all been negative. So it is with hesitation that I contribute to this thread. I just want to remind eveyone of what today is... the sixth anniversay of 9/11. If you want to observe sociopathic behavior, examine what the terrorists did on that day.


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## hopkins_student (Jun 25, 2004)

Liberty Ship said:


> Not all sociopaths are violent, but they all share a complete lack of empathy and sooner or later, if you let them into your life, that will bite you hard. You find them everywhere, from the Serial Killer Hall of Fame, *to neighborhood associations*, to family reunions, even our on line community! They are a class of people who I have had to think about a lot and in doing so found a great book on the subject, "The Sociopath Next Door." I just googled it and found this review which sums up " sociopathy":
> 
> here's another:
> 
> https://www.curledup.com/sociopat.htm


You hit the nail on the head. For some reason these people seem to congregate in neighborhood associations.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip said:


> You are, once again, displaying your remarkably ignorance and inability to actually read. If you can find your way back to that thread, you will find that what I "dissed", along with just about everyone else in the profession, was the excessive inclusiveness of the particular diagnostic criteria relating to APD, antisocial personality disorder. Perhaps, once you graduate from high school (though with your reading deficiency, that might be a very long time. I don't guess they give social promotions any more), you'll be able to sort out some of this. Hey, we can always hope.


Ah rip, love ya baby! Keep it up old boy


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Howard, maybe if you study long and hard, you could be a sociopath.


No I'm not that type who would beat people up at will.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Some people do violence with their fists. Some inflict it via keyboards.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Kav said:


> Some people do violence with their fists. Some inflict it via keyboards.


Are you refering to me cause this nonsense has to stop already!
What are you implying Kav?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I'm not implying anything Howard. Whatever motivations for posting online, we as individuals create a personae. That personae will either find favour or disapproval with individuals and the forum peer group at large. If one makes an offensive or poorly thought out post; we hear about it. The option is to apologise, rephrase or take a deep breath like a pufferfish and not budge. But you are unique, making posts not unlike a Lobotomy performed with a Cat D 9 scraper. Again, everybody makes their share of offensive or inane posts. Yours are about as topical to your audience as a L.A. freeway Tag is to a interstate trucker delivering Toilets from Akron.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Some of Howard's posts strike me as inane, but none strikes me as offensive. Unless accompanied by obvious arrogance, a gentlemen responds to inane commentary either not at all or with good-natured humor. Responding with acerbic criticism is offensive, which is usually the mark not of a sociopath, but a jerk.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Kav, I think we all like to stress the benefit of the doubt sometimes. And please allow me to add the following: your posts are so extremely colourful and highly stylized that to me they appear to be the product of a very sophisticated _mind_.  Thank you very much.

A.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Albert said:


> Kav, I think we all like to stress the benefit of the doubt sometimes. And please allow me to add the following: your posts are so extremely colourful and highly stylized that to me they appear to be the product of a very sophisticated _mind_.  Thank you very much.
> 
> A.


Sometimes Kavs post seems like with his degree knowlege he then takes some wild drugs and then sits down to the keyboard types to us at Ask Andy.

Sociopath- in middle school one history teacher told about somebody 100 years or two sooner had noticed that sociopaths had a certain shape head, but after more research and lots of people disagreeing with him, it became obvious shape of the head had nothing to do with sociopaths same as dna will prove to be worthless, too.

To add to the question- Is there any organize crim'er that is not a sociopath?

And, after a sociopath has served his time, how many have been let out on the street?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Wa, My drug history consists of the onetime ingestion of 2 peyote buttons within a very structured cultural context. I chewed two coco leafs walking up Macchu Pichu after being offered them by a roadside vendor seeing my distressed breathing. Aside from a standard two fingers of single malt at days end thats it.I Well, I do have this affinity for aspirin. I woke up once with a terrible cluster headache to find an empty bottle. I confess: I rolled up the cotton plug and smoked it.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

Alcohol and anger and personality disorders are not a good combination, and then there are the just plain mean people out there. There are so many Macho types, those that need to prove something to themselves. Being tough is usually a cowardly thing.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

Kav said:


> But you are unique, making posts not unlike a Lobotomy performed with a Cat D 9 scraper.


Spot on Kav
MrR


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## bwridge (Feb 20, 2006)

Another good book on the subject is Snakes in Suits, by Paul Babiak. He focuses primarily on the havoc sociopaths can cause in the workplace.

It's a touchy subject for me as I was diagnosed with PTSD due to an abusive, and I now believe sociopathic, co-worker a few years ago. I encourage people to be careful about the people they associate with and no matter what, put your own psychological well-being above everything.

Brian


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

> I encourage people to be careful about the people they associate with and no matter what, put your own psychological well-being above everything


Yeah,cause they too can be sociopaths themselves.


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## Good Old Sledge (Jun 13, 2006)

Aren't sociopathology and Antisocial Personality Disorder two different things? I have all too much experience with APD having worked Forensic in-patient psych for some 12 years now, but I've never really heard the term "sociopath" in a clinical setting.
Further, I have a Chief Clinical Officer who argues every time some poor nurse charts that one patient attacked another "without provocation." He insists that there must have been something that triggered the assault - some words earlier, the wrong glance or attention paid to the wrong third party. The thing is, it's because they require no provocation that makes them - by any measure - sick. Perhaps the "provocation" is a response to internal stimuli or some creepy transference/countertransference issue, but to anybody observing the scene, there was no provocation.
Take a few guys who are drunk, bored and full of adolescent hormones, maurading about looking for trouble. They'll find it, lads. Every bloody time.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Good Old Sledge said:


> Aren't sociopathology and Antisocial Personality Disorder two different things?


Not in a purely clinical sense, but with the general public I think it is along the lines of a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't necessarily a square.

A sociopath is what most clinicians call someone who suffers from Antisocial Personality Disorder; however, given that APD can range from very mild to very severe, the general public probably tends to use the term sociopath to describe only the more severe cases.

Cruiser


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