# Unfriendly experience...is this typical?



## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

Today I had the fortunate opportunity to get to travel into Cambridge and Boston for some shopping at tradly destinations. I was very much excited to visit the Andover shop and J.Press, after fawning over their products for years and spending lots of time online researching the products and the company. In both stores however, I had a fairly cold reception.

Andover had a younger salesman who asked if we could be helped, but after that pretty much stared me down the entire time I was there. It's not a large store...but the feeling of being watched like a hawk is never too fun. 

Press was a lot worse though. When we walked in, we were the only customers in the store. The older salesman waiting inside did not greet us, or ask if we could be helped. He just stared in discontent as I gazed over the dozens of repp ties and blazers that normally I can only dream about. Two other guys entering a few minutes later were greeted. I wasn't only there to muck about either, I actually was interested in a few items as they were running a sale. I was on the fence about a wool scarf that was within my price range, but ultimately decided not to buy as I was kind of ticked off at the time as a result of this. Upon exiting I said "happy New Years" to which he didn't reply.

Does anyone else have a similar experience with upscale retailers? Every time I go to Brooks, at least they are friendly and (try to be) helpful. I know I'm a younger guy but I would love to have my first (really nice) suit come from one of these stores, but the experience was sort of off putting. I wasn't dressed like a slob of course. It shouldn't be an age thing because they cater to Harvard students and I'm a senior in college myself. Maybe I'm being overly critical but it would have been great to have a conversation with these guys rather than feel like I'm not wanted in the store.... I am willing to hear out all opinions on this as I know many of you are long time and loyal customers of these establishments.


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## UnivStripe (Mar 6, 2013)

When I go into a Trad shop, I usually wear one of my nicest Trad outfits. What exactly were you wearing?


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Just curious, who were you with (you said "we")?


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

I do realize clothing choice is probably fairly important. I was dressed for the cold temps outside, wearing a navy peacoat over a wool sweater, photo available in the trad WAYWT thread. I was accompanied by my girlfriend who was wearing a Barbour Beadnell...


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

I can't speak with any certainty about these particular folks, but I will say that in these shops, it's sort of protocol for a salesman to be with you, helping you, while you're in the store. I didn't realize this was the norm the first few times I went into Press, but came to understand after a while. They are not really used to having a bunch of people in the shop browsing on their own. I would recommend being totally up front with these guys as soon as you enter, just go right up them first and say you want to browse a bit.

I feel I came to really understand this when I went to Paul Stuart for the first time. There a salesman really escorts you around, even if you're browsing…he is right there with you the whole time. Maybe others have a different experience.

After I got to know the people at Press, I would go in and say 'hello' and then browse on my own, as the salesman knew I would seek him out when I wanted to get something or had a question.

I imagine part of the reason for this is that they work on comission and so they don't want to have people in the store that are randomly up for grabs.

That said, the Press salesman not greeting you seems a bit rough.

And I don't think it should matter what you're wearing. As long as you're not coming in in a tank top and flip flops they should treat you with respect, as you are a customer.


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

Perhaps your age factored in? 

I've always felt that my age had a little bit to do with it.


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

adoucett said:


> .....they cater to Harvard students......


That right there could be the problem.

I've gotten the same treatment at both places. While I'm not rich, I do occassionally like to spend a bit of money. Everytime I walk out of a place like that, after getting lousy service, it's usually with the money still in my pocket, and I don't really care that the employees essentially watched a bit of their salary walk away.

Along the the same lines, I know you've been happy with the service at BB in the Back Bay. I've had nothing but lousy experiences there. The staff at the small BBJ store in Dedham has been super, however.

Anyway, next time you're in Cambridge check out the Irish Importer, on Mass Ave between Harvard and Porter. It's a little bit of a walk, but they've got some really nice stuff; waistcoats, sweaters, jackets, caps....


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## UnivStripe (Mar 6, 2013)

There is no excuse for how you were treated. Every SA should be courteous to all customers who come into their store. Just a suggestion, you might consider swapping out the Bean boots for some dress shoes or dress boots and the coat for a tweed sport coat and tie. I usually try to wear clothing items purchased from the store in which I am shopping even though it is not always possible. This is no guarantee of courteous service but I think that it helps.


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

Flairball said:


> Along the the same lines, I know you've been happy with the service at BB in the Back Bay. I've had nothing but lousy experiences there. The staff at the small BBJ store in Dedham has been super, however.


I actually know the exact store (it's a Brooks Country Club shop) in Dedham, been there a bunch and the younger guy whose been there every time has been super friendly and helpful. He even suggested I work there but sadly I don't live in Eastern MA (yet).


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## Robotrick (Feb 13, 2014)

adoucett said:


> It shouldn't be an age thing because they cater to Harvard students and I'm a senior in college myself.


When I go to J Press I never see students in there. It's always middle-aged men, who are greeted by the salesman. I, however, am not greeted and get a similar cold treatment to what you described (I'm a student). So I guess what I'm saying is, it probably is your age. Press is really outside the price range of most students these days.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

I'm sorry, but I would be pissed.

If it is convenient for me to stop at the store on the way home from a workout and I haven't had time to shower, they should still be just as polite as if I was dressed in one of their suits (obviously, if I was sweaty and expected to try on things, that would be over the line). And last I checked, 18 year olds, 22 yo, 35 yo, 68 yo, and 112 year old's money is all the same.

This is the kind of stuff that gives places a bad name, imo. When you start thinking that someone is not of the caliber to wear your clothes or be treated well in your store, well then you are pretty much shooting yourself in the foot. Had it been me, I probably would have brought a bunch of stuff up there, paid for it, then returned it on the spot and tell him that he may never know how much business he is losing next time he behaves that way.

And of course, say Happy New Year on my way out....


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

adoucett said:


> Today I had the fortunate opportunity to get to travel into Cambridge and Boston for some shopping at tradly destinations. I was very much excited to visit the Andover shop and J.Press, after fawning over their products for years and spending lots of time online researching the products and the company. In both stores however, I had a fairly cold reception.
> 
> Andover had a younger salesman who asked if we could be helped, but after that pretty much stared me down the entire time I was there. It's not a large store...but the feeling of being watched like a hawk is never too fun.
> 
> ...


These threads never end well. The key when entering the store is to just state your business. When someone asks if they can help you, be direct and honest. If you want to buy a scarf, say "I'm interested in a red scarf I saw in your catalog; do you have it in stock?" If you're there to nurture a healthy brand obsession honed on the Internet, on which you may actually act someday and buy something, try "I've read a lot about your shop online and would like to understand how your suits fit me as I prepare for interviews." If you intend to buy nothing and would truly just like to browse without help, say so: "I'm visiting from upstate and heard this place is the best. I'd really just like to look around for myself." And if no one greets or offers to help but you still need it, approach the closest employee and blurt it out: "I'm going to need a little help, please."

We are so quick to perceive condescension--or even incompetence--on the part of salespeople of whom we expect so much while giving them nothing with which to work. We don't really just walk into these places with no clue what we're doing there. Why waste time pretending we do?


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

Aside from the personal appeal of looking nice you shouldn't have to dress to the nines to get a little service before you give someone your money. It's poor service and was probably because of your age. I remember being treated the same way when I was in college and still get that occasionally even though I'm in my early 30's. In truth, such indifference is a really stupid position because young customers without a ton of money aren't always going to be that way.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

UnivStripe said:


> Just a suggestion, you might consider swapping out the Bean boots for some dress shoes or dress boots and the coat for a tweed sport coat and tie. I usually try to wear clothing items purchased from the store in which I am shopping even though it is not always possible. This is no guarantee of courteous service but I think that it helps.


Screw that. It's not like he was wearing flip flops. He shouldn't have to dress to the nines to be greeted pleasantly by a sales associate.

I've got news for JPress and Andover: their older customer base won't be around forever. If they're smart, they should actively cultivate a younger customer base. I don't mean offering a b.s."York Street" line. I mean treating a potential new customer with the respect he deserves.


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

Could it be that these establishments are unaware that there is a small, but nonetheless growing population of younger customers that learn of their brand through Internet and social media sources? I think a lot of these companies could really capitalize on the younger market IF they could more properly position themselves to be desirable to them. Look at vineyard vines for example: similar price point, much less "authentic" yet it's a brand known by a large percent of college kids today. The difference is in how the customer is targeted and the viral nature of clothing and branding.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

UnivStripe said:


> you might consider swapping out the Bean boots for some dress shoes or dress boots and the coat for a tweed sport coat and tie. I usually try to wear clothing items purchased from the store in which I am shopping even though it is not always possible. This is no guarantee of courteous service but I think that it helps.


This is ridiculous advice. There is no excuse for the crappy service he received, and he shouldn't have to play dress-up to shop there.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

smmrfld said:


> This is ridiculous advice. There is no excuse for the crappy service he received, and he shouldn't have to play dress-up to shop there.


Agreed. I have received plenty of crappy service at upscale retailers before, but I have never shopped at those two stores. Bad service is everywhere today because of the corporate mentality of paying the sales associates as little as possible and not caring about employee turnover. I would have expected good service from those two stores because they are small outfits as opposed to large chains such as JosABank and Macy's.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I once had a sales associate at Ralph Lauren in Chicago throw a shirt at me and my future wife. I wrote a letter of complaint to Ralph Lauren that was not answered or acknowledged.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

We're all just guessing here.

I do think some of the SA's at these stores could get burnt out on hipsters coming in after reading a blog post about the store and wandering around and then vanishing without a peep. That is not to say that a cold, rude attitude is justified, I mean there's no upside to a SA being rude, they only win when they cultivate a customer. They ought to give people the benefit of the doubt, regardless of age&#8230;until given a reason to do otherwise.

On the other hand some people unused to the typical protocol in these stores may be misinterpreting what is otherwise usual behavior [i.e. following a customer around the store].

I think the nuances of normal human interaction apply in and out of the store&#8230;.so if you can deal with someone out in the world, you should be able to make a go of it in J Press or Andover.


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## g3org3y (Dec 30, 2014)

I'm a long term member of various automotive forums and this topic often crops up with (younger) members having poor experiences at dealerships belonging to premium/luxury manufacturers.



CLTesquire said:


> Aside from the personal appeal of looking nice you shouldn't have to dress to the nines to get a little service before you give someone your money. It's poor service and was probably because of your age.


More than likely this unfortunately. Don't take it to heart.

If the SA works on commission, they'll make a snap judgement as to whether they think you are someone who is a serious buyer and whether to devote time to you. It's not right, it's not fair, it's not good practice, but it happens.

Personally, I hate overbearing SAs. However, a simple greeting, introduction and statement that they are there if I need them is what I would expect.



32rollandrock said:


> I once had a sales associate at Ralph Lauren in Chicago throw a shirt at me and my future wife. I wrote a letter of complaint to Ralph Lauren that was not answered or acknowledged.


Now that's a story I'd like to hear!


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

g3org3y said:


> I'm a long term member of various automotive forums and this topic often crops up with (younger) members having poor experiences at dealerships belonging to premium/luxury manufacturers.


I know that attitude well, having had a ten year old BMW and been treated like dirt at the parts counter of one Dublin dealer.
Luckily there was another dealer, equidistant from my house, where they were much more accommodating of a diverse customer base.


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

This is very interesting. I used to live in Boston, but at the time was not even aware of J. Press nor The Andover Shop, so when I went back to visit over a year ago I paid both a visit. Upon entering J. Press I was greeted by an older gentleman, but for some reason he quickly diverted his attention away from me to some other customers that walked in. After that I received no attention at all.

At the Andover Shop there was some sort of book release party or similar happening (there was wine and cheese and some people sitting around in chairs...believe it or not, considering the size of the place) and the store probably had more people in it than they would typically have (I'm guessing...again my first time there). I was only browsing, and although I don't recall if I was asked if I needed help or not, I don't recall feeling as snuffed as I felt from the J. Press experience.

I've generally received a warm welcome in any BB I've entered.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

K Street said:


> These threads never end well. The key when entering the store is to just state your business. When someone asks if they can help you, be direct and honest. If you want to buy a scarf, say "I'm interested in a red scarf I saw in your catalog; do you have it in stock?" If you're there to nurture a healthy brand obsession honed on the Internet, on which you may actually act someday and buy something, try "I've read a lot about your shop online and would like to understand how your suits fit me as I prepare for interviews." If you intend to buy nothing and would truly just like to browse without help, say so: "I'm visiting from upstate and heard this place is the best. I'd really just like to look around for myself." And if no one greets or offers to help but you still need it, approach the closest employee and blurt it out: "I'm going to need a little help, please."
> 
> We are so quick to perceive condescension--or even incompetence--on the part of salespeople of whom we expect so much while giving them nothing with which to work. We don't really just walk into these places with no clue what we're doing there. Why waste time pretending we do?


The key to ME entering a store to spend MY money is to behave a certain, specific way? I am sorry, but that is absolutely nonsensical. The SA is getting paid to be there and it is he or she who should be living up to a certain expectation more so than the customer.



gamma68 said:


> Screw that. It's not like he was wearing flip flops. He shouldn't have to dress to the nines to be greeted pleasantly by a sales associate.
> 
> I've got news for JPress and Andover: their older customer base won't be around forever. If they're smart, they should actively cultivate a younger customer base. I don't mean offering a b.s."York Street" line. I mean treating a potential new customer with the respect he deserves.


Even if he was wearing flip flops he should have been greeted pleasantly.

I mean seriously - I shouldn't feel like they are doing me a favor by letting me spend my money there.

I lament the disappearance of the small shops of all types all across the country, but if a store really expects me to come in, state my business, service myself, and basically feel like they are allowing me to come their shop, then why in the world would I not just shop on the web?


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## blacksby (Jan 17, 2013)

I think that it's a little funny that this discussion, on a website all about clothing(and dressing well), is somewhat about not being judged on how you dress....
You are judged everyday by your appearance and the moment you realize this, the game gets a little easier. I'm not saying it's right, it just is reality.
You want to test drive a new Mercedes? Overdress for car shopping, and you'll get that ride.
You want to get some attention in a clothing shop? Walk in wearing an ocbd, trousers and leather shoes...
You want to be treated like a club member at the local golf course? Don't show up in cargo shorts and a stained polo...
You want to breeze through DMV and be treated like more than a subhuman? Wear a blazer(I've tried it, it works, everytime).


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

vpkozel said:


> I lament the disappearance of the small shops of all types all across the country, but if a store really expects me to come in, state my business, service myself, and basically feel like they are allowing me to come their shop, then why in the world would I not just shop on the web?


This right here. Other than when I don't feel like driving anywhere, it's the main reason I do a lot of shopping on the internet. I will say that I've received nothing but courteous service from anyone I've talked to at my local BB and great service from the local men's shop (Fairclough & Co.).


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I think this is completely unacceptable, adoucett. If I were you, I would write a letter of complaint to the managers of those stores.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

What would you as a customer think if other customers walked in wearing flip-flops?


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

SlideGuitarist said:


> What would you as a customer think if other customers walked in wearing flip-flops?


Well, obviously I would question the sanity of the SA for immediately not shooing him out the door and calling the appropriate authorities, try to figure out why the SA's parents had not raised him correctly, and begin berating the customer who DARED set foot on hallowed ground in such attire, and make sure he knew that THEY were not welcome here. THEY are not of my caliber, nor of the caliber of US. THEY should know better, after all.

Are you freaking kidding me? I would assume that the guy in flip flops knew how to dress and was running errands in flip flops. I would probably find it a bit odd if he had flip flops on in wintertime in the northeast, but that is about the extent of it.

Some of y'all need to get off of your high horses and realize that dressing well is an indication only that you dress well, not that you are better than someone else.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

CLTesquire said:


> (Fairclough & Co.).


They are truly top notch in all ways. Friendly, helpful, knowledgeable - everything. I drool over the Samuelsohn's they have on the right as you walk in.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

You shouldn't have to dress well to deserve something as basic as common courtesy. Also, dress is no indication of spendable income, and the sales clerk who disregards potential sales based on a customer's appearance is doing a great disservice to his employer.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

Is there a chance that you misinterpreted what was going on at the Andover Shop, adoucett? I've been there a number of times, and I've noted a sense of tension among the staff, which is never directed at customers. As you suggested, the store is tiny. And the salesmen are presumably on commission, and they seem to get on one another's nerves. Sometimes they can be a bit distant, but they are always helpful when asked, I have found. And Charlie himself is fantastic: he has a wonderful sense of humor and he always comes by to chat with me when I'm there.


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## blacksby (Jan 17, 2013)

SlideGuitarist said:


> What would you as a customer think if other customers walked in wearing flip-flops?


I find flip-flops to be a dealbreaker. They are shower/beach shoes. 
No excuse.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Why not write a diplomatic and fair-minded letter to the CEO ?


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

vpkozel said:


> The key to ME entering a store to spend MY money is to behave a certain, specific way? I am sorry, but that is absolutely nonsensical.  The SA is getting paid to be there and it is he or she who should be living up to a certain expectation more so than the customer.
> 
> Even if he was wearing flip flops he should have been greeted pleasantly.
> 
> ...


No. It is nonsensical to wander into a store expecting the salespeople to read your mind, only to race home to whine on the internet that they did not meet your expectations.

Their job is to help you buy things in the store. They can't do that if you refuse to tell them what you want.

State your business.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

If I worked as an SA at either of those shops, I would almost certainly be at least a casual observer of the AAAC Trad Forum......in which case, I would have looked over at the OP and said, "Hey look, it's adoucett!".


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I've worked a few retail jobs, including a while in college as a men's department salesclerk. Always, the expectation I was given was to greet the customer in a friendly way, inquire if they needed help, perhaps point out a sale or other feature, and then go from there. If the customer indicated not wanting help, you left the customer alone. However, at a minimum, one was friendly and courteous to every customer.



K Street said:


> No. It is nonsensical to wander into a store expecting the salespeople to read your mind, only to race home to whine on the internet that they did not meet your expectations.
> 
> Their job is to help you buy things in the store. They can't do that if you refuse to tell them what you want.
> 
> State your business.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

K Street said:


> No. It is nonsensical to wander into a store expecting the salespeople to read your mind, only to race home to whine on the internet that they did not meet your expectations.
> 
> Their job is to help you buy things in the store. They can't do that if you refuse to tell them what you want.
> 
> State your business.


Did you even read the initial post?


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## Jman9599 (Dec 23, 2013)

Well at least you didn't have the SA look at your LinkedIn profile to see if you were their type of customer.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

K Street said:


> No. It is nonsensical to wander into a store expecting the salespeople to read your mind, only to race home to whine on the internet that they did not meet your expectations.
> 
> Their job is to help you buy things in the store. They can't do that if you refuse to tell them what you want.
> 
> State your business.


You don't feel being courteous and saying "hello, how are you?" is part of a sales associate's job? I don't think that's too much to ask.

If a SA isn't inclined to extend the minimum amount of courtesy to a customer when one walks in the door, then they're in the wrong line of work.

Furthermore, I've always thought the JPress and Andover shops were supposed to practice top-notch customer service. (This is based upon what I've read online -- these stores are not near me.) Courteous customer service should extend to EVERYONE, not just the old boys who have shopped there since 1963 when grandfather from the class of ''37 brought them in for their first suit fitting.

As I said earlier, JPress and Andover better cultivate the younger generation, or they'll find themselves either resorting to being online retailers or out of business altogether.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

g3org3y said:


> Now that's a story I'd like to hear!


OK, then.

It was seven years ago now. My then fiance and I were shopping for clothes for our wedding. We went to Chicago and started at Brooks Brothers on Michigan Avenue. I knew exactly what I wanted, a white French cuff shirt with point collar and a breast pocket, but I didn't know as much as I do now and so we threw ourselves at the mercy of SA's. We explained why we were there and what we wanted and in what size. The SA at BB was very nice, congratulated us on the pending nuptials, but after checking, said that they didn't have what I wanted, which, in retrospect, I find amazing. She didn't bring up made to order options, which she really should have done. Would have saved us the shopping experience from hell.

We went next door to Paul Stuart, but they couldn't help us either. Nonetheless, they were welcoming and polite and also offered congratulations, as had been the case at BB. We were still upbeat and hopeful and smiling when we went across the street to Ralph Lauren--the sun was out, it was still early in the morning and we had the whole day ahead of us to shop without compromise.

When we got to RL, we did the same thing as we'd done at BB and Paul Stuart. We explained that we were getting married, I needed a shirt and I wanted a white point collar French cuff shirt with a breast pocket in 18/34--we were that specific. The SA in the shirt department--I'll always remember him, a bald guy with round tortoise shell glasses--just stared at us from behind the counter. Didn't say congratulations. Didn't smile. Didn't even say hello. "We only have that in Purple Label," he said simply. "Can I see it?" He rolled his eyes slightly, then turned around and faced the cubbyholes of shirts on the wall behind him that stretched to the ceiling. He climbed on a ladder and fetched a shirt from the uppermost cubbyhole on the far end of the counter and threw it down at us.

The ceilings in that place are pretty high, high enough that he needed something more than an ordinary stepladder to reach the shirt, and he was on the far end of the counter from us. Despite the distance involved, the shirt landed on the counter right in front of my fiance and I. It was obvious he'd done this before. He descended the ladder and, without a word to us, disappeared into a back room.

My future wife was furious at that point and said we should leave. I persuaded her to stay. It took five minutes or so for him to reemerge from the back room. He stood in front of us, still not saying anything.

"How much is the shirt?" I asked.

"$275," he answered.

"Does it have a pocket?" I asked.

"No," he said with open disdain. "Purple Label doesn't have pockets."

I've never wanted to buy anything so much as I wanted to buy that shirt so that I could then verbally abuse this idiot like he had never been verbally abused before, and hopefully in front of a manager, but decided that would likely not be a good idea. So we left, then wrote a letter of complaint to RL that was not answered or acknowledged in any way. I ended up buying a shirt from Nordstrom for $200, but I eventually acquired a brand-new Purple Label French cuff white shirt with point collar from eBay. I consider it the best shirt in my closet.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Wow. I've had a few bad experiences. That one is especially bad. Some SAs are just ASSes. I don't know why. Low blood sugar, crankiness, not a big enough breakfast or lunch, too little pay?


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## Spin Evans (Feb 2, 2013)

32rollandrock said:


> I ended up buying a shirt from Nordstrom for $200, but I eventually acquired a brand-new Purple Label French cuff white shirt with point collar from eBay. I consider it the best shirt in my closet.


But does it have a pocket? :rolleyes2:


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Duvel said:


> Wow. I've had a few bad experiences. That one is especially bad. Some SAs are just ASSes. I don't know why. Low blood sugar, crankiness, not a big enough breakfast or lunch, too little pay?


Too little pay, little to no benefits, and no job security. Typical in almost all retail establishments today.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Spin Evans said:


> But does it have a pocket? :rolleyes2:


In fact, it does have a pocket--I ended up with exactly what I wanted. The SA at Nordstrom took very good care of us and ended up with, I'm sure, a nice commission for not much work, given that all she had to do was listen, poke around a bit and find a shirt. We were in and out of there in well under 30 minutes. But it is not nearly as nice a shirt as the Purple Label.

As a result of my experience, I will never buy anything from RL. Ever. I don't care if they start up buy-one-get-three-free sales on their entire stock.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

blue suede shoes said:


> Too little pay, little to no benefits, and no job security. Typical in almost all retail establishments today.


I'm quite certain that SA's at RL on Michigan Avenue are well compensated.


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## chicagoboy (Mar 16, 2012)

I had a very similar experience at the Andover shop. I walked in a couple hours before closing time well dressed, although not formal (tartan plaid, shetland sweater, brown cords, barbour coat), and I was treated so coldly that I left after about five minutes despite having traveled from Boston to Cambridge solely to visit the store.

A young SA was standing on the stairs watching me browse, while three older gentlemen standing in the back stopped their conversation as soon as I walked in and silently watched me. I inquired about trying on a shirt for size, but it was made very clear that that was not acceptable ("Well, I'd have to talk to my manager about it...."). Despite having a list of items to look at and try on to compare with my Press/O'Connell's/Brooks fare, I walked out of the store emptyhanded and very confused. It was the most uncomfortable shopping experience I've EVER had.

My girlfriend who was with me remarked, "It's almost as if they don't want you to buy anything." So I did just that, vowing not to ever shop and Andover and spending quite a bit of money at Kamakura in NYC, WM Fox in DC, and J Press & O'Connell's online. Will post my Jan haul when I'm home with my camera.


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## Piqué (Apr 10, 2014)

blacksby said:


> I think that it's a little funny that this discussion, on a website all about clothing(and dressing well), is somewhat about not being judged on how you dress....
> You are judged everyday by your appearance and the moment you realize this, the game gets a little easier. I'm not saying it's right, it just is reality.
> You want to test drive a new Mercedes? Overdress for car shopping, and you'll get that ride.
> You want to get some attention in a clothing shop? Walk in wearing an ocbd, trousers and leather shoes...
> ...


He was wearing this:








That's plenty of clothing to walk into a J Press. Good lord...


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

I recall reading a thread about treatment at the Andover Shop, which I've never visited, leaving much to be desired. I used to visit Press at its off Madison store years ago and service was very good, with staff making useful suggestions. Once, a newbie SA was fitting me for a blazer and an older gentleman, who obviously had some rank, stepped in with the right size. And David Wilder, whom I've seen mentioned on this forum, was exceptionally helpful both in person and on the phone. I haven't been at a Press store in years, however, though I keep wearing their clothes, much of it acquired here.
As for dressing to shop, that's just plain silly. First time I walked into Brooks (Madison Avenue) was a lifetime ago and I was dressed like, well, a hippie, which didn't faze the staff or alter their courtesy. Years later they helped me buy the clothes I needed for my first NY job -- at their entry-level floor. I took my sons there later and the staff at the boys department was as seriously helpful as those who dressed older gents. Of course, that was two owners ago, when a gentleman who sold me a suit later got featured in the Times as their most senior salesman when he retired. I recall his suggestion of a 1 3/4 cuff back in the day of trendy narrow cuffs. A good SA can be an education. Perhaps they're all gone and the slack is taken up by this forum.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Not surprised.

https://www.ivy-style.com/a-league-of-his-own-the-andover-shops-charlie-davidson.html


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

gamma68 said:


> You don't feel being courteous and saying "hello, how are you?" is part of a sales associate's job? I don't think that's too much to ask.
> 
> If a SA isn't inclined to extend the minimum amount of courtesy to a customer when one walks in the door, then they're in the wrong line of work.
> 
> ...


The more I read here, the more I worry some people actually walk into these stores just looking for something to complain about.

Salespeople are there to help you buy things. A successful trip to J. Press or Andover is one in which you get what you went there to buy. You will almost always get the help you need when you are direct and honest about your needs. Only on the rare occasion where that fails do you have a real complaint. Otherwise, when your reasonable needs are being met, you're already having a good day, whether the salesperson thought to ask you about it or not.


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

vpkozel said:


> Did you even read the initial post?


Of course. Did you?


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Topsider said:


> Not surprised.
> 
> https://www.ivy-style.com/a-league-of-his-own-the-andover-shops-charlie-davidson.html


Very nice, and the comments were interesting.

Thanks.

:chinese:


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

K Street said:


> The more I read here, the more I worry some people actually walk into these stores just looking for something to complain about.
> 
> Salespeople are there to help you buy things. A successful trip to J. Press or Andover is one in which you get what you went there to buy. You will almost always get the help you need when you are direct and honest about your needs. Only on the rare occasion where that fails do you have a real complaint. Otherwise, when your reasonable needs are being met, you're already having a good day, whether the salesperson thought to ask you about it or not.


My idea of the salesperons's job differs from yours. Salespeople are supposed to practice courtesy in addition to selling things. Lack of courtesy leads to lost customers.

I'm rather appalled at the suggestions throughout this thread that Adoucette did something wrong. This thread isn't about clothes, it's about courtesy. In my view, neither shop was very courteous to Adoucette.

The bottom line is this: Andover and JPress lost a sale due to their indifference. Too many of those, and those shops will go the way of the unlined collar.


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

K Street, I understand your suggestion or even requirement of giving the salesperson something to work off of, but it's something different when you're in a store for about 10 minutes without a word spoken to you...it's an uncomfortableness you can feel. 

I'm know not a high-profile customer yet, But these are the experiences which will shape my perception of the company for my future. I didn't come here to complain and drum up a huge controversy over something that's not a big deal in the long run, the bottom line is pretty much if you don't come off as someone who is prepared to drop a lot of dough, you won't get the same level of attention.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I've never sold anything except used stuff, but I'd imagine part of an SA's job at an upscale place like Press or Andover or RL on Michigan Ave. is to size up folks who walk in the door to determine whether they are serious customers, serious trouble or something in between. I don't necessarily have a problem with that. The problem I had, and what I think the OP had, was an abysmal failure to properly evaluate the customer. I should think that's accomplished in a variety of ways, dress being one and conversation being ultimate. It's true what the OP says: Those who are prepared to drop a lot of dough are going to get more attention, and that's understandable. What isn't understandable is being ignored, as the OP was, or, being treated rudely even though you were prepared to spend money, as I was.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

K Street said:


> Of course. Did you?


Yes. Especially the parts about neither experience meeting even the basic requirements that you described.

I understand that you may be a fan of Press or the Andover Shop, but there is just no way that you can defend their actions. It is not my job to make the SA feel at ease or provide him with a pleasant experience, it is his job to provide those things to me.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

^ This.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

g3org3y said:


> If the SA works on commission, they'll make a snap judgement as to whether they think you are someone who is a serious buyer and whether to devote time to you. It's not right, it's not fair, it's not good practice, but it happens.


In the early 1990's I owned a small real estate brokerage in Jacksonville, NC, the home of Camp LeJeune and obviously in the South. I was in the office by myself one afternoon and noticed a beat up old Audi drive into the lot. A mid 20ish black woman walked in with a baby on her hip and two little kids walking behind her. She was majorly irritated by the way she was treated at a Big Fancy Real Estate Office up the street.

The agent at the other office had looked down her nose at this single black woman who came up to the fancy office in a piece of junk car with 3 little kids in tow. It turns out that this woman was a US Marine Corps Staff Sergeant (E-6) who was married to a Staff Sergeant. They had both been stationed in Okinawa, Japan for the last 2 years and were being transferred to Camp LeJeune. They had been living frugally and saved a good chunk of cash, and had bought a cheap car for cash because they wanted to remain debt-free and maximize the amount of house they could buy.

Long story short: Great customers, bought a very nice house, nice commission for me, zip point nothing for the snooty agent who tried to judge a book by its cover.


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

vpkozel said:


> Yes. Especially the parts about neither experience meeting even the basic requirements that you described.
> 
> I understand that you may be a fan of Press or the Andover Shop, but there is just no way that you can defend their actions. It is not my job to make the SA feel at ease or provide him with a pleasant experience, it is his job to provide those things to me.


Do you actually read posts? I've said pretty clearly and a number of times now it's the salespeoples' job to help you buy things. I've never said it is your responsibility to make them feel at ease or provide them with a pleasant experience. But you know that. You're just looking for a fight.

ADoucett, I've been 'ignored' for 10+ minutes in that J. Press store before. I thought nothing of it because I wasn't there to buy anything and needed no help. Then I saw a pair of socks I really liked. I picked them up, walked up to the guy standing near the cash register and said "I'll take these, please." And that was it.

They just can't read your mind. To them it may genuinely look like you're just taking a casual stroll with your girlfriend and not looking to buy anything. If they're misreading the situation, you can speak up for yourself and get what you want. Or you can perceive an insult and write it up on Ask Andy, where your friends will pile on with self-righteous fits of pique about old boys clubs and age discrimination. I think if you step back and assess the situation more dispassionately you'll find you got exactly what you came for-- a nice afternoon walk and a quick tour of two really cool shops you aim to frequent in the future.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I cannot imagine how the manager of this store, or any other, would authorize ignoring a new customer for 10 minutes. It's not necessary to read customers' minds. That why one says to them, "Welcome! Can I help you find something?"


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

K Street said:


> Do you actually read posts? I've said pretty clearly and a number of times now it's the salespeoples' job to help you buy things. I've never said it is your responsibility to make them feel at ease or provide them with a pleasant experience. But you know that. You're just looking for a fight.


I have read your posts - and they have consistently missed the point. An SA's job is not just to help you buy things. It is to serve as an ambassador of the store, be knowledgeable about the products, and to provide a consistent and pleasant customer experience to all customers. Let me ask you a question - when you go to a nice restaurant, do you expect to seat yourself, grab your menus, look up the specials, and then flag down a server to place your order? No, you don't. And if you did have to do those things, you would probably - and rightly - be howling about the shoddy service. And I am not looking for a fight at all, thanks. I, and many others, are simply pointing out that we disagree with your take on things.



> ADoucett, I've been 'ignored' for 10+ minutes in that J. Press store before. I thought nothing of it because I wasn't there to buy anything and needed no help. Then I saw a pair of socks I really liked. I picked them up, walked up to the guy standing near the cash register and said "I'll take these, please." And that was it.


Did they say hello or may I help you when you entered?



> They just can't read your mind. To them it may genuinely look like you're just taking a casual stroll with your girlfriend and not looking to buy anything. If they're misreading the situation, you can speak up for yourself and get what you want. Or you can perceive an insult and write it up on Ask Andy, where your friends will pile on with self-righteous fits of pique about old boys clubs and age discrimination. I think if you step back and assess the situation more dispassionately you'll find you got exactly what you came for-- a nice afternoon walk and a quick tour of two really cool shops you aim to frequent in the future.


Dispassionately read that again. You basically just told him that he should feel fortunate that he got to go into these 2 places and get ignored.


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## catside (Oct 7, 2010)

Silly. A hello and a smile costs nothing, and it is part of tradly courtesy.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

K Street said:


> I think if you step back and assess the situation more dispassionately you'll find you got exactly what you came for-- a nice afternoon walk and a quick tour of two really cool shops you aim to frequent in the future.





adoucett said:


> ... I wasn't only there to muck about either, I actually was interested in a few items as they were running a sale. I was on the fence about a wool scarf that was within my price range, but ultimately decided not to buy as I was kind of ticked off at the time as a result of this. Upon exiting I said "happy New Years" to which he didn't reply.


Sounds to me like Adoucett was a potential buyer, not just out for a stroll...



K Street said:


> Or you can perceive an insult and write it up on Ask Andy, where your friends will pile on with self-righteous fits of pique about old boys clubs and age discrimination.


Just because someone disagrees with another doesn't make them "self-righteous."



catside said:


> Silly. A hello and a smile costs nothing, and it is part of tradly courtesy.


Catside's got it right.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

K. Street: You're wasting your time here. Come back to TC. We want to see your outfits.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

The thing I've never understood is when I go to the checkout line at Salvation Army and Goodwill, the clerk always asks: "Did you find everything?"

I've always been tempted to say, "As a matter of fact, no. I was looking for a Ralph Lauren Purple Label shirt, a pair of Alden LHS loafers in cordovan, and a Golden Fleece suit."


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## Brigadier Cheape (Sep 25, 2014)

No soup for you!


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## 123abc (Oct 3, 2014)

32rollandrock said:


> OK, then.
> When we got to RL, we did the same thing as we'd done at BB and Paul Stuart. We explained that we were getting married, I needed a shirt and I wanted a white point collar French cuff shirt with a breast pocket in 18/34--we were that specific. The SA in the shirt department--I'll always remember him, a bald guy with round tortoise shell glasses--just stared at us from behind the counter. Didn't say congratulations. Didn't smile. Didn't even say hello. "We only have that in Purple Label," he said simply. "Can I see it?" He rolled his eyes slightly, then turned around and faced the cubbyholes of shirts on the wall behind him that stretched to the ceiling. He climbed on a ladder and fetched a shirt from the uppermost cubbyhole on the far end of the counter and threw it down at us.
> 
> The ceilings in that place are pretty high, high enough that he needed something more than an ordinary stepladder to reach the shirt, and he was on the far end of the counter from us. Despite the distance involved, the shirt landed on the counter right in front of my fiance and I. It was obvious he'd done this before. He descended the ladder and, without a word to us, disappeared into a back room.
> ...


32Roll, I think it's really stretching it to think a SA is a horrible person if he's not all excited about your wedding. Clearly, if BB, PS and RL weren't up to your shopping standards, then just maybe it's NOT the SA who is the issue... To have a deep desire to verbally abuse an SA is an issue. The Purple Lablel shirts don't have pockets, you asked, he answered. The price was $275 - asked and answered, much better than at JAB where no one knows the price (which I read in another thread you find acceptable and the customer's issue). Did you expect he'd sew a pocket on for you and say "congrats on the engagement", give it to you free for a wedding present?

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar ......


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

123abc said:


> 32Roll, I think it's really stretching it to think a SA is a horrible person if he's not all excited about your wedding. Clearly, if BB, PS and RL weren't up to your shopping standards, then just maybe it's NOT the SA who is the issue... To have a deep desire to verbally abuse an SA is an issue. The Purple Lablel shirts don't have pockets, you asked, he answered. The price was $275 - asked and answered, much better than at JAB where no one knows the price (which I read in another thread you find acceptable and the customer's issue). Did you expect he'd sew a pocket on for you and say "congrats on the engagement", give it to you free for a wedding present?
> 
> You catch more flies with honey than vinegar ......


Wrong answer, dude. You need to go back to shopping school.

Here's the deal. The SA abused me, not the other way around. By his manners, he was thoroughly insulting to both me and my fiance, who, if anything, was madder than I was when we walked out of the place. PL was absolutely up to my standards, and he might have made a sale had he treated me and my future wife like human beings. As you say, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

If you don't think that an SA should offer congratulations and at least smile when the customer informs him of upcoming nuptials, you are utterly nuts. Let me 'splain it for you: When people get married, they spend lots of money on clothes. When people spend lots of money on clothes, the SA who sells them the clothes makes lots of money. That's how the world works. So, unless a SA hates money, he should be nice to customers, especially ones who are shopping for clothes for a special occasion and are prepared to spend lots of money.

What, you think it's OK for a SA to throw a shirt at a customer from a distance of 15 feet or so then walk off without a word? What planet did you come from?

You really need to get over the JAB thread. And you also might benefit from an instructor when you go shopping so that you might know what is and is not acceptable in a retail establishment. It is obvious that you have much to learn.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

The first half page was fine, but I feel dumber for having read this far.


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## 123abc (Oct 3, 2014)

32rollandrock said:


> Wrong answer, dude. You need to go back to shopping school.
> 
> Here's the deal. The SA abused me, not the other way around. By his manners, he was thoroughly insulting to both me and my fiance, who, if anything, was madder than I was when we walked out of the place. PL was absolutely up to my standards, and he might have made a sale had he treated me and my future wife like human beings. As you say, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
> 
> ...


Wooaaa pal. Calm down there, 32Roll. I guess I'm getting the same vitriol you wanted to lay on that SA who didn't hug you for your wonderful engagement announcement. Such an obviosly friendly guy - I wonder how that horrible SA could have taken him for an angry non-buyer wasting his time?

Maybe he should have come down the ladder unsafely with an item in his hand - did you ever wonder WHY he tossed the shirt down from the high ladder onto a counter? Most likely, they are instructed NOT to carry items down, which makes a ton of sense if there is a safer method. You didn't buy anything in the end, as you say because the shirt had a pocket, so I'd say he made the correct read on you. Hopefully, you've matured a bit from the time of this story as it shows a very immature view of how to interact with other adults in a friendly, professional manner. Why would any SA just be nasty to you for NO REASON - have you ever considered that? Look back and try to grow personally from what you might have said, done, implied or just a look you may have had that set this in motion (most of which amounted to nothing, btw).

Also, 32, please let us know when your birthday is because we don't want to be "verbally abused" for the sin of not congratulating you on your special day, God forbid. j/k


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

In all fairness, even clerks are human, and we all have bad days. I remember a number of "moody" days back in college when it was more of an effort than other days to be nice and friendly.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

123abc said:


> Wooaaa pal. Calm down there, 32Roll. I guess I'm getting the same vitriol you wanted to lay on that SA who didn't hug you for your wonderful engagement announcement. Such an obviosly friendly guy - I wonder how that horrible SA could have taken him for an angry non-buyer wasting his time?
> 
> Maybe he should have come down the ladder unsafely with an item in his hand - did you ever wonder WHY he tossed the shirt down from the high ladder onto a counter? Most likely, they are instructed NOT to carry items down, which makes a ton of sense if there is a safer method. You didn't buy anything in the end, as you say because the shirt had a pocket, so I'd say he made the correct read on you. Hopefully, you've matured a bit from the time of this story as it shows a very immature view of how to interact with other adults in a friendly, professional manner. Why would any SA just be nasty to you for NO REASON - have you ever considered that? Look back and try to grow personally from what you might have said, done, implied or just a look you may have had that set this in motion (most of which amounted to nothing, btw).
> 
> Also, 32, please let us know when your birthday is because we don't want to be "verbally abused" for the sin of not congratulating you on your special day, God forbid. j/k


You need to cool it. Seriously. If you want to pick a fight with me, do it via PM. Otherwise, we can leave it up a mod to decide your fate.

You are, to put it bluntly, behaving like an ass.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Duvel said:


> In all fairness, even clerks are human, and we all have bad days. I remember a number of "moody" days back in college when it was more of an effort than other days to be nice and friendly.


True enough. But it's an SA's job to be nice and friendly. If you can't do your job, then you shouldn't be at work.


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## 123abc (Oct 3, 2014)

32roll, thx for replying and quoting my last post here. I loved getting another chance to re-read what I said a few posts up - it was pretty good material. Thanks again.

btw, Happy Birthday, whenever it is and Happy Anniversary. That should cover me so you're not so ready berate me like as you do SA's. 

Now... call in the Mods, 32Roll. You're down on the canvass and it's still round 2! It's your only hope.....


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## 123abc (Oct 3, 2014)

32rollandrock said:


> True enough. But it's an SA's job to be nice and friendly. If you can't do your job, then you shouldn't be at work.


Very true. That's a BIG part of the job and should never be compromised by a pro. I assume it's not always easy though - retail can be a tough business.


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## Trish (Jan 5, 2015)

I have worked in a few different retailers as a sales associate including J.Crew and Nordstrom- where I have also completed The Retail Management Internship. Alongside those I have been a brand ambassador for Vineyard Vines and now Southern Tide and there are a few parallels across the board between all of these companies. One of the main "rules" in the employee handbooks for these companies is to treat all customers equally and not to judge by appearence because people are from all walks of life. 
From my experience as a salesperson a lot of the time the customer you least expect will spend the most money. A lot of people don't feel as though they have to dress up for every ocassion, especially shopping if they plan to be there for a long time. As a college student I have experienced the same cold feeling in a few stores and it is an instant turn off to me because I can just buy it online or elsewhere. It is a sales associates job to cater to the customer and make it the easiest, most pleasent shopping experience- not a cold, awkward one where you won't want to come back.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

123abc said:


> 32roll, thx for replying and quoting my last post here. I loved getting another chance to re-read what I said a few posts up - it was pretty good material. Thanks again.
> 
> btw, Happy Birthday, whenever it is and Happy Anniversary. That should cover me so you're not so ready berate me like as you do SA's.
> 
> Now... call in the Mods, 32Roll. You're down on the canvass and it's still round 2! It's your only hope.....


Wow. Just wow.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Must be having a bad day.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

I think it's funny how, if you've paid attention, you notice that it's the same characters who turn up again and again in these unsightly "dust-ups". And then they disclaim any and all culpability. An all around ugly show, in my opinion. That's why I just usually sit back and opcorn:. Cheers.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'm not reading the whole discussion here; doesn't look like it would be profitable. 

To chime in on the OP, though: One reason sales people seem to "hover" sometimes is because of commission. Often there's an informal rotation system going on among the staff, where each associate in turn gets to help the next person that comes in the door. The salesperson who's "up" greets you, asks if they can help, and it's understood they'll get to ring you up and get credit for the sale when you're done. 

Sometimes sales people can be less than ethical towards their fellow workers, though, and end up vulturing a customer when it wasn't their "turn." So, in response, sales people will hover to keep other workers at bay. It's annoying, and maybe not the ideal for customer service, but that's what the incentives built into the system produce. 

Knowing this, when I'm in a store and someone greets me and asks if I can help, I say, "No thanks, I'm just browsing right now, but I'll let you know if I need help. What's your name?" Giving the salesperson some confidence that I'll come back to them usually keeps them off my back.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

To the OP, I'd suggest trying to forget about it and not letting a sales person dictate your happiness. There's not much you can do to control that person's behavior but you can control whether you'll let it bother you. If you asked for help and were refused then that would be a separate issue but a less-than-friendly attitude isn't worth worrying about in my opinion.

My personal preference is a sales person that is fast and accurate. I almost never browse, but if I did then I would want to be left alone until I was ready for assistance.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Don't want to derail the discussion, but did that white French-cuffed shirt come in slim fit?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Please. I just dealt with problems in the Fashion Forum yesterday between two of you. I'm not getting involved in this. Take the situation to PM if you must continue to argue. 

The next one to lob a grenade will not be happy with the moderation. Please stop if now; I'll close this thread if I have to.


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

I've had this experience a number of times at both stores but never thought much of it...I spent a lot of time browsing in both when I was in college and assumed that the...salutary neglect I received was due to my age and the fact that I usually wore jeans and a North Face jacket. On those occasions when I did have money to spend, I found that the salespeople were quite helpful. Don't take it personally...frankly I think the attitude fits in well with the people of Boston who struck me as being rather cold and standoffish.

I did go back to Andover last year wearing cuffed Bills and a blazer and was treated very well; I think the guys there thought that I was obviously going to spend money (joke's on them, all I bought was a watch strap). I suppose it would be nice if the treated everyone like they were about to drop $1,000 on a new suit, but it just isn't how they operate. Try not to let it detract from the experience.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

My alma mater town used to have, back in my college years, some decent independently owned men's stores. I visited them more often than I made purchases in them, but no matter--every time I stepped inside the door, from the first time to the last, I was greeted with a smile and at least a nod, usually a hello. It didn't matter what I was wearing. The gentlemen were always attentive, and always friendly.

Bottom line, there's never an excuse for rudeness toward a customer.


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## 123abc (Oct 3, 2014)

Orgetorix said:


> Well, I'm not reading the whole discussion here; doesn't look like it would be profitable.
> 
> To chime in on the OP, though: One reason sales people seem to "hover" sometimes is because of commission. Often there's an informal rotation system going on among the staff, where each associate in turn gets to help the next person that comes in the door. The salesperson who's "up" greets you, asks if they can help, and it's understood they'll get to ring you up and get credit for the sale when you're done.
> 
> ...


This is great advice. The SA has a tough decision to make - many shoppers want some attention and many others hate to be bothered and feel it's harrassment. If you tell them you're browsing but you'll come get them if you find something you're interested in then maybe they can leave you to your preference w/o losing a sales commission or bonus opportunity. On the other hand, if you do want help right away, just be upfront and ask for it so the SA doesn't have to worry about "bugging" someone who doesn't. Just be upfront with what you need/want and it usually works out. There are exceptions, such as at JAB (at least near me) where the merchandise is arranged in such a haphazard manner and pricing not clearly marked on anything, plus multiple overlapping sales so it's very hard to browse much w/o a SA to help you. Because of this, I will no longer shop there as I do like to browse before getting the SA when I am serious about buying.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

xcubbies said:


> Don't want to derail the discussion, but did that white French-cuffed shirt come in slim fit?


It fits me, so I'm guessing not.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

I think there is a lack of kindness in many of those stores. I don't have any problems; they know perfectly well how to be gracious when they want to be. However, I do see how they treat certain people, about whom I suspect they make snap-judgements; or, perhaps perceive them as first-timers or noobs or whatnot (they are admittedly easy to spot, but so what?) and to be honest I really don't like that sort of thing. I have often thought that a lot of these guys coming in have $ and are students at prestigious universities and are polite people - and that the salespeople are putting on airs to compensate in one way or another. I could be wrong but that's the way it comes across. That article about Charlie Davidson examples this well; to my ears at least, it oozes with a kind of smoldering envy beneath all that bluster. 

Also, on the issue of the dilemma of the salesperson wrt how much to interact with the customer: every salesperson has that problem at virtually every store, and they learn rapidly how to get a feel for that. Some of these guys have been doing this for half a century, it's difficult to believe that they haven't figured it out yet. 

I just think that one should always get out of oneself and try one's best to help or advise anyone who comes your way. Whether you be a salesperson at the Andover shop or just a passerby on the street. I watched my father in this way: no matter who it was he came across, my father would treat the person as if he were the king himself. 

Remember the origin of the word snob. Sine Nobilitas. 

And, it's always worthwhile to listen to Chesterton: "There is a great man who makes every man feel small. But the real great man is the man who makes every man feel great."


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

Considering what I believe are premium prices for the shops you mentioned, I would think the sales associates would go out of their way to be kind and helpful. Hell if you want to be ignored, you can go to the mall. The fact that you were there meant you were at least willing to consider their fairly steep prices. 

I have not been to the Andover shop or ANY J. Press store. Also, I have never been to a real BB store except for the BB outlet in Oklahoma City. The SAs were excellent. They greeted me asked if I needed help and let me shop, but when I looked up and in their direction, they recognized I needed help and came over to me. It was surprising for an outlet store. The other BB area I have shopped is a just a BB area set aside in the Men's section of Wichita's nicest department store (Von Maur). They are equally helpful without being obnoxious.


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## DRWWE (Jul 6, 2009)

This thread brought back memories. I lived in Cambridge when I was in grad school and visited J Press and Andover. I needed professional-looking clothing because I was seeing patients. I still remember being in those same stores after so many years. Never bought anything because I was looked down upon/ignored/not greeted or assisted. I was in my mid-20s and dressed like a Harvard grad student (usually khakis or jeans with whatever shirt was appropriate for the weather). I wasn't dirty or rude. I would walk in and eventually sheepishly walk out because I felt unwelcome. That was in the late 80s, so I guess things don't change. The comments about that you need to dress well when going shopping are ridiculous, but that has been discussed. My worst treatment ever during my school years was in the Boston Neiman Marcus (not trad, I know)--I needed nice clothes, they had what I liked, no salesman would help so I found what I liked on my own then proceeded to walk around trying to pay for my purchases only to have more than one salesman/lady tell me they were busy, the last straw was when the lady behind a counter with a cash register said that to me so I put my items on the counter in front of her and walked away. Getting treatment like that when you are trying to buy clothes that you need makes you feel like crap. 

Now that I am 50, I never walk into a nice store and get ignored (the opposite is true). But, I still remember those places that treated me like a worthless kid (there were more than I mentioned) and will never give them my business. That being said, the Boston Brooks Brothers salespeople always were very welcoming and helpful when I was a student, as were some other wonderful Boston shops (Simon's in Copley Square, now closed). The BB people there made me a customer for life, even though I no longer live in Boston.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

DRWWE said:


> as were some other wonderful Boston shops (Simon's in Copley Square, now closed). The BB people there made me a customer for life, even though I no longer live in Boston.


hah, remember Simon's? They were the opposite, lol. And just down the street from the Andover Shop (when there was one in the Back Bay) - the main sales guy who worked there was out of control with his snootiness.

Back Bay BB was and always is excellent; as is the Madison Ave one... in fact I have always liked the people at BB.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Adoucett, I'm sorry to hear about the bad experiences you had at Andover Shop and J. Press up in Cambridge - particularly so because these are two of my favorite stores. I honestly don't know why you had such a bad time with these folks. 

Without blaming or criticizing you or them, I can tell you what works for me.

Being from San Antonio TX, I know that even though I've lived up there in New England, I'm different from the natives. I keep this in mind so I can stay alert to misunderstandings - especially those I might cause.

I know these stores occupy small amounts of real estate and that their occupants typically are more reserved and somewhat more direct than we folks in Texas. So, when I enter either store, I act like a stranger walking into someone's home. I walk in slowly, smile, and have a good word and a ready handshake for all takers. I keep myself friendly and approachable. Again, these guys are cooped up in a small space all day, and I've most likely been out having fun, so I try to keep it low key. And I let them know that even though I love their store and really enjoyed my last visit, they're under no obligation to remember the last time I was there or even to remember me.

Only after they've had a chance to size me up do I start talking about the purpose of my visit.

J. Press tolerates browsers, especially if you're careful about pulling out the items you're going to buy as you're looking. I like to have the SA follow me around so he can answer my questions and help me dig out things. At Andover Shop, browsers seem to make the sales staff extremely nervous, but their SA's are extremely helpful if you tell them exactly what you want and let them bring those items out to you. Both my son and I have had good success with this approach. Use the Andover Shop website on your smartphone to show them what you want. . . or at least to establish a starting point.

Hope this helps.


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## Bleedblue (Aug 8, 2014)

Having gone to college where JPress was founded, I've come to regard the casual attitude and occasional snobbery as part of the charm of JPress. Students drove the majority of business for that JPress, but the SAs were still not the best - and that's OK! Just go about your business and accost an SA if you need them - life is too short to worry about who's nice and who's rude to you. And dress however the hell you like to go shopping.

(I will say, though, that JPress did reach a nadir when an SA in DC treated me like an abject moron for inquiring if they carried a specific affiliation scarf - a staple item for 80 years - haughtily telling me that he'd never heard of such a thing and that I might do better looking at JAB. But hey, now I have a funny story and lost nothing except, er, my standing in someone's eyes who I don't care about?)


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

When I was a young man I could have been offended by the attitude of a salesman in a store. Now..."Hey, he's the one working retail and punching a clock." Any air of superiority on his part in the relationship is just a laugher to me. If the business has problems with their employees then that is their problem, not mine. I refuse to let it ruin my day.


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## windsor72 (Dec 24, 2014)

BB staff have always been friendly and helpful, from my first visit 34plus years ago to the present, in the Chestnut Hill, Back Bay, Madison Ave and oth r mall stores, and at the outlets. esp. Kittery.
Andover Shop always a bit intimidating. I recall walking in once and feeling like not a member of the club...even though i was a prep-schooled grauate of the local college. But maybe it wouldbe better now. (But that's the point: everyone should feel comfortable. It is ungracious to make peole feel ill at ease. It is ungentlemanly. It is unseemly. ) I like their ties, but I'm happier looking in through the window. I liked George Fraser fine, but I agree w SammyH above. 
J.Press on Mt Auburn St always seemed hard to park at, but the staff on the phone have been swell. A trip a few weeks ago to the NHaven store was fine, but I have learned by now how to shoo away SA's when i don't want to interact. I expect i would have liked it years ago, when the fear of closures, firings, and what all hadn't taken hold. Yup, it was probably better when family owned. But the family sold it, like the Taylors sold the boston Globe, which was also better then. So it's not a museum or a foundation or Sturbridge Village.
Oh well!

The thing is, BB has always been accomodating. It is broad church, incluing trad orinteded and the rest. And they still make the traditional fit OCBDs, US-made, at a decent price (when on sale), even if these aren't as good as they used to be. What's to complan about? It is a business after all, and if they couldn't float the boat we'd all be in a sorrier state .


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Bleedblue said:


> Students drove the majority of business for that JPress, but the SAs were still not the best - and that's OK!


It always seemed as though the more student-oriented a business was in that town, the more that business disdained students. It was one of the better salesmen at that Press who told me he served everyone as well as he could - young people included - because he didn't know who would lead him to a lifetime of good earnings.


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## PaultheSwede (Dec 20, 2014)

All I can say is that shopping in Sweden is a different world to the US. Generally staff ignores you or if not often rude. When I find an exception to this I tend to stick to those stores.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Some of my worst shopping experiences have occurred at independent menswear shops. However, *all* of my best shopping experiences have occurred at independent menswear shops.

I agree with Danny that the SA/owner is there to help you and build a relationship with you. If you let that happen, then you have a better chance of having a positive experience. This means that a typical visit to one of these stores may last an hour or two. Obviously, once the relationship is established, a quick visit is fine, but if they don't know you and get the vibe that you're in a hurry, the chances of a good visit diminish considerably, IMO.

Having said that, I will also say that not every shop can be all things to all customers. Most of these places are ruled autocratically by the owner. And so the owner determines the culture of the shop. Sometimes that culture can be quirky, and you'll have to figure out if that is acceptable. Otherwise, you might have to find another shop because they ain't changin'.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Duvel said:


> You shouldn't have to dress well to deserve something as basic as common courtesy.


Agreed, but unfortunately, in life, this is not always the case. For example, if you fly often, try taking a trip dressed as a typical traveler (ie, shabbily) and then try again dressed smartly in a sportcoat or blazer, pressed trousers, and shined shoes. I think the difference in how you're treated will shock you. Another place to try this experiment is at a very nice restaurant without a reservation.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

I think you guys have now thoroughly pulverized the original topic. You are now in the Realm of Mutant Threads.

Let's keep that mutation rolling. I rarely fly. I hate flying. It is a giant pain in the neck. 

But when I do fly I wear a coat and tie. It really makes a difference. Security people are polite. Stewardesses are politer. It works on everybody. Young ladies smile. Mothers ask me to watch their infants while they make a mad dash for the ladies. Dogs would follow me, if they allowed dogs in airports, which they don't, which is yet another reason why I dislike flying.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

I lived on Mount Auburn Street in the 2000s and have been to the Press there. I found it fairly friendly. Andover is a different story - the store seems to strive for an aura of exclusivity, which is consistent with the owner/founder's well-known reputation for only providing top-notch service to customers who pass muster in his eyes. 

On the whole, what puzzles me about these stores is the apparent assumption that one is coming in knowing what one is looking for. This may be true at times, especially with respect to very basic items, but the whole idea of ready-to-wear clothes is that someone else has designed and produced something that you might like and that might fit; you have to see it to make that decision. That's the point of browsing, trying things on, etc. 

So when SAs ask if they can help find what you are looking for, it is in many cases an inapt question - one may not be looking for anything in particular, but rather looking to see if something catches one's fancy. When stores discourage browsing, either by hovering or by ignoring customers who have not expressed an immediate, clearly-defined explanation of what they are looking for, they are missing out on opportunities that seem fundamental to the ready-to-wear premise.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Well said, Taliesin. For better or worse, I tend to spend more when I go to a store _not _knowing what I want. I'll often tell the SA something to the effect that I have a lot of things in mind that I want and that I would love to wander around and see what the store might have to offer. Basically all I'm saying is "I'd like to browse" but I think it suggests that I'm also ready to spend some money.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

The closest I've been to any store of that type is Perlis, which I've been to more times than I can count. every time I go there, it is different, but there are a couple unspoken rules that I've noticed:

1. the stuff between the door and the register can be browsed and perused without much interaction from the staff. This stuff includes ties and seasonal shirts, maybe some fun belts, or some grooming products. If you would like to look at suits, etc., you aren't going to really be welcome to peruse by yourself.
2. If you are not approached by the staff, they are more than happy to help upon request. They might seem to be ignoring you, but they may be filling a phone or internet order, checking on alterations for a customer who is about to come in, etc.
3. Perlis has an older gentleman on staff that has enough of his own old-line customers that he doesn't exactly have any time to deal with anyone new. He can seem gruff, but he is probably just busy. I prefer to work with someone a tad bit younger anyway -- I'd rather develop a relationship with a salesman that won't retire 20 or 30 years before I do, then have to build a relationship with a new one.
4. 99% of the people that come in, know exactly what they want before they step in the door (any MANY call ahead). The business model is not one built on browsing, but fulfilling a need one may have.


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## TheUndertaker (Feb 6, 2013)

*J Press Rant*

The Andover Shop in Cambridge have always treated me very well (when I first started shopping there I was only 25). They are always friendly, quiet, and a bit stuffy (after all, you are in Cambridge!) Once you get to know them, almost all of the salesmen have a great dry sense of humor, especially Larry.

As for JPress......that's another story. No personalities or sales charm. They feel that they are doing you a favor. I recently purchased two full length raincoats from their Connecticut location. One was a Grenfell, the other a Mackintosh. The Mackintosh was just too big, and when I tried to return it....they said they could only offer more store credit (which was A-OK with me). However, when I asked for a raincoat one size down, they told me that they had no more and they wouldn't be ordering anymore. (As ticked off as I was....I ended up purchasing their Hopsack Sack Grenfell Blazer. It arrived in the mail with a hole in the lining and no Grenfell label, whatsoever. When I called them, they said it was indeed a Grenfell Blazer (Still not convinced) and that they would send me out another. The other blazer arrived this morning with a pull in the hopsack fabric right on top of the shoulder! When I called, the salesman was most discourteous and said that they had no more of them ( as it is the end of the season). How does a Navy Hopsack Blazer (something they carry year round....not available???) A call tag has been issued and I am eagerly awaiting their reply.

Anyone else had a similar experience?


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## TheUndertaker (Feb 6, 2013)

I must also mention that the quality of the Grenfell Raincoat was SUPERB!!! The Navy Hopsack Blazer was also beautiful. Just a serious lack of quality control and customer service. I dropped a lot of $$$ with them and they couldn't have cared LESS


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

^^

It's been awhile since I bought anything from Press, but when I did, I never had an issue. Indeed, they once accepted a return on a clearance sweater I foolishly didn't try on for at least six months, and I think much longer, after purchase. It didn't fit and they had no obligation to take it back, but they did. Trevor at the D.C. store was once heralded here as a stand-up, helpful guy, and he once found me a navy blazer at an astonishingly low price (I think it was around $160). Not sure if it is still true, but it used to be that calling the store to buy stuff worked much better than going through the J. Press website/mail order operation, which was, and might still be, notoriously difficult. The folks at the stores, at least via telephone, were knowledgeable, courteous and helpful.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I called them once, and they were extremely nice.


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## ThatDudeOrion (Jun 17, 2014)

Patrick06790 said:


> I think you guys have now thoroughly pulverized the original topic. You are now in the Realm of Mutant Threads.
> 
> Let's keep that mutation rolling. I rarely fly. I hate flying. It is a giant pain in the neck.
> 
> But when I do fly I wear a coat and tie. It really makes a difference. Security people are polite. Stewardesses are politer. It works on everybody. Young ladies smile. Mothers ask me to watch their infants while they make a mad dash for the ladies. Dogs would follow me, if they allowed dogs in airports, which they don't, which is yet another reason why I dislike flying.


+1 million
The service, or lack thereof, that adoucett received is not uncommon and is occurring with ever increasing regularity, across all aspects of retail and service oriented businesses, the rub is that Press and Andover aren't big enough to pull off the current prevailing retail business model of "treat the customer like crap, they still have to buy our stuff because our multinational conglomerate destroyed any semblance of competition in the market." The Andover Shop will close soon enough and this type of service will be part of the reason why. Press is also doomed to suffer one of a couple fates, I see them either going bankrupt and ceasing operations, or possibly being resurrected by an unbroken chain of inept private equity investors like BB, or they'll simply dilute the Press brand that we know and love and shift the product line more and more towards the York St. or whatever they call it, or some combo of the above. I have my doubts as to whether Press will actually open their new location in NYC. My bet is that O'Connell's will be the last man standing. No matter how much we all want it, we aren't experiencing a resurgence of TNSIL, quite the opposite actually. Patronize these places at your own peril, while you still can. I must have read a hundred case studies in B school just like this.

Re: flying, my old career was rather technical in nature and I had to fly often, usually to crummy places like Yuma, AZ or etc. and never felt the need to wear anything above my prescribed uniform for these trips of Dickies work pants and a company polo. I was often carrying tools or some piece of equipment with me. Then one day, I decided to try a social experiment of sorts and wore a suit to the airport, I was astonished at the difference (deference?). People were smiling at me, extending greetings, I had never gotten a free upgrade before in my life, but I did with the suit on, generally falling all over themselves to help me. That trip was the watershed moment for my interest in clothes and dressing better.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

When I fly, I carry a book with me. It should be a "serious" book, preferably a literary classic. That way I look smart, and as most people in airports are stupid, they are intimidated by my choice of intellectual reading material and they won't bother me.

As another example of customer service, what about doctors? How do we know that they are telling us the whole truth? I get a flu shot every year. I'm now bald. However, my doctor will not verify for me that the two are related, and I think she's hiding something.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Duvel said:


> When I fly, I carry a book with me. It should be a "serious" book, preferably a literary classic. That way I look smart, and as most people in airports are stupid, they are intimidated by my choice of intellectual reading material and they won't bother me.


I like to fly with a current copy of Archie and Jughead comics. I don't want people to merely not "bother" me... I want them to avoid me altogether.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I will have to try this!



drlivingston said:


> I like to fly with a current copy of Archie and Jughead comics. I don't want people to merely not "bother" me... I want them to avoid me altogether.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

People write LOL when they really mean ha, ha that made me smile. HOWEVER, reading your response did make me laugh out loud! You could start a panic that flu shots cause baldness.

You might be surprised at the number of calls I get from people wanting to sue for medical malpractice. The overwhelming majority are totally unrelated issues. Many of them believe in a causal relationship like your Flu Shot = Baldness. A lot of the others just have doctors who are A holes and didn't treat them very well (but did NOT engage in malpractice). The most extreme case of malpractice that I have litigated was, unfortunately, a case I was DEFENDING!



Duvel said:


> When I fly, I carry a book with me. It should be a "serious" book, preferably a literary classic. That way I look smart, and as most people in airports are stupid, they are intimidated by my choice of intellectual reading material and they won't bother me.
> 
> As another example of customer service, what about doctors? How do we know that they are telling us the whole truth? I get a flu shot every year. I'm now bald. However, my doctor will not verify for me that the two are related, and I think she's hiding something.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

drlivingston said:


> I like to fly with a current copy of Archie and Jughead comics. I don't want people to merely not "bother" me... I want them to avoid me altogether.


Carry a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook. They will avoid you, but you might not get on the plane.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I usually travel with the World's Greatest Dad mug my son gave me prominently displayed which, I believe, indicates I deserve special attention and respect.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Yes.

Also this: I often walk to work. It has been years since I've received a significant pay raise. Correlation? I'm beginning to think so!



Nobleprofessor said:


> People write LOL when they really mean ha, ha that made me smile. HOWEVER, reading your response did make me laugh out loud! You could start a panic that flu shots cause baldness.
> 
> You might be surprised at the number of calls I get from people wanting to sue for medical malpractice. The overwhelming majority are totally unrelated issues. Many of them believe in a causal relationship like your Flu Shot = Baldness. A lot of the others just have doctors who are A holes and didn't treat them very well (but did NOT engage in malpractice). The most extreme case of malpractice that I have litigated was, unfortunately, a case I was DEFENDING!


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

xcubbies said:


> I usually travel with the World's Greatest Dad mug my son gave me prominently displayed which, I believe, indicates I deserve special attention and respect.


During a recent flight, I picked up a copy of The New Yorker, and am I ever glad that I did. It contained this very useful and informative article about how one can go about getting proper attention in retail establishments and airplanes:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/20/pets-allowed


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Nobleprofessor said:


> Carry a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook. They will avoid you, but you might not get on the plane.


That's child's play. Carry "The Al Qaeda Reader" instead.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Reminds me of an experience I had in Cable Car Clothiers in San Francisco in the Eighties. I was wearing, as I remember, an OCBD, bow tie and blue blazer. 

And blue jeans.

When I first walked in, the sales lady at the counter smiled at me. And then I came out from behind the display that was hiding the bottom part of my outfit, and she saw my blue jeans for the first time. Boy, did her nose wrinkle up in disdain.

Needless to say, this was before "business casual" was even a heretical thought in someone's brain of what could be acceptable dress. But I was on vacation and I didn't care what I looked like. I thought her reaction was rather humorous.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Topsider said:


> Not surprised.
> 
> https://www.ivy-style.com/a-league-of-his-own-the-andover-shops-charlie-davidson.html


I'd like to return to the theme of apparent snobbery at Andover. The article at the link above references a situation in which a wealthy businessman orders three suits from the shop. The owner, Charlie Davidson, told the customer they'd be ready in a month. It wasn't until 11 weeks had passed and two phone calls (the last one angry) that Davidson decided he was ready to have the suits made.

Why on earth would anyone want to do business with a shop that operates like this? It doesn't matter how great the merchandise is if the owner doesn't want to make it available.

It's not only poor form to treat people in this manner, it also doesn't cultivate new customers. Youngsters aren't beating a path to his door. Chet Baker and Miles Davis aren't going to stroll in anytime soon. I'm rather surprised the shop remains in business with this kind of attitude.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

gamma68 said:


> I'd like to return to the theme of apparent snobbery at Andover. The article at the link above references a situation in which a wealthy businessman orders three suits from the shop. The owner, Charlie Davidson, told the customer they'd be ready in a month. It wasn't until 11 weeks had passed and two phone calls (the last one angry) that Davidson decided he was ready to have the suits made.
> 
> Why on earth would anyone want to do business with a shop that operates like this? It doesn't matter how great the merchandise is if the owner doesn't want to make it available.
> 
> It's not only poor form to treat people in this manner, it also doesn't cultivate new customers. Youngsters aren't beating a path to his door. Chet Baker and Miles Davis aren't going to stroll in anytime soon. I'm rather surprised the shop remains in business with this kind of attitude.


I emphatically agree with this post. I honestly think it's a need to feel important somehow. That's always the sense I get in places like that. There's a wee bit of unreality hovering about that portrait.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

gamma68 said:


> I'd like to return to the theme of apparent snobbery at Andover. The article at the link above references a situation in which a wealthy businessman orders three suits from the shop. The owner, Charlie Davidson, told the customer they'd be ready in a month. It wasn't until 11 weeks had passed and two phone calls (the last one angry) that Davidson decided he was ready to have the suits made.
> 
> Why on earth would anyone want to do business with a shop that operates like this? It doesn't matter how great the merchandise is if the owner doesn't want to make it available.
> 
> It's not only poor form to treat people in this manner, it also doesn't cultivate new customers. Youngsters aren't beating a path to his door. Chet Baker and Miles Davis aren't going to stroll in anytime soon. I'm rather surprised the shop remains in business with this kind of attitude.


That article makes me certain I will never shop there. And I'm sure ole Charlie is just fine with that.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Nobleprofessor said:


> That article makes me certain I will never shop there. And I'm sure ole Charlie is just fine with that.


Yup. And yet it's really too bad because surely there's some young, enterprising fellow who would give anything to take the reins of a place like that and would do tremendously well.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You have a right to be upset and the leadership of those stores should know of your experiences.

It shouldn't matter what one wears. Everyone should expect to be treated equally.

I know members of clothing forums tires of these "oil tycoon in disguise" stories, but from my experience it's not far removed from the truth. You never know who will come in wearing unassuming, rather beat up ranching attire at my store and end up spending $1000 or more. But that still misses the main point: Everyone should be treated as a potential customer, whether they end up spending $1000, $100, or nothing at all that day. Because good customer service leaves a good impression and leads to future sales. I can't count how many times someone was "just looking" after I explained everything in depth only to have them come back and ask for me, by name, the next day.

Though we don't sell anything Trad, I'd be more than glad to take the business these guys didn't want from you! :biggrin:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

drlivingston said:


> I like to fly with a current copy of Archie and Jughead comics. I don't want people to merely not "bother" me... I want them to avoid me altogether.


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## catside (Oct 7, 2010)

Jovan said:


> You have a right to be upset and the leadership of those stores should know of your experiences.
> 
> It shouldn't matter what one wears. Everyone should expect to be treated equally.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should accumulate some capital, move to northeast and revive one of the old school shops that had a good name but long gone. Names should be purchased fairly cheap now that they are long gone. With the right combination of internet and retail the business should be profitable, epaulet comes to mind but a more trad version.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Obviously they have a committed clientele who are content to deal with their eccentricities. They also have the much larger store in Andover, MA, which might be more to the liking of those who are more sensitive. In fact, they should be having their 30% off sale now, or in the next few days. I think they've discontinued the policy of requiring a CV with a recent photograph before they let you in.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

xcubbies said:


> Obviously they have a committed clientele who are content to deal with their eccentricities. They also have the much larger store in Andover, MA, which might be more to the liking of those who are more sensitive. In fact, they should be having their 30% off sale now, or in the next few days. I think they've discontinued the policy of requiring a CV with a recent photograph before they let you in.


I think the thing that is getting lost in all this is a general lack of courtesy and respect. Part of being a gentleman (which I hope every man desires to be) is being courteous and respectful to everyone. That means the store employee should be courteous and the customer should also!

If someone behaves like a jerk, you can always say, "Sir, I will continue to treat you like a gentleman. Not because you are one, but because I am one."


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Nobleprofessor said:


> I think the thing that is getting lost in all this is a general lack of courtesy and respect. Part of being a gentleman (which I hope every man desires to be) is being courteous and respectful to everyone. That means the store employee should be courteous and the customer should also!
> 
> If someone behaves like a jerk, you can always say, "Sir, I will continue to treat you like a gentleman. Not because you are one, but because I am one."


Yes, I see your point. Alas, if we were all noble.


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## DJO1961 (Dec 9, 2012)

I recently had a bad experience at Paul stuart, of all places. December 27 I was in New York with the family. We were shopping and went in. I admit that I was not particularly well dressed: khakis, button down shirt, sneakers, suede overcoat. WeI went to the third floor (?) to look at sport coats. Two men were at the top of the stairs and one gentleman asked me if I need help. I told him I was browsing sport coats. He took me to a nearby rack, separated about eight sport coats that were two sizes too big, and said "This is what we have in your size." I looked around and saw hundreds of coats, and I'll bet some of them were actually in my size. (By the way, every experienced salesperson that I have ever worked with has got my size right by eyeballing, or at least within one size.) I looked at the jackets as he stood nearby an then thanked him and left. On the way out I circled the floor and found the size I wear and the size he showed me in different styles in several places. I felt I was clearly being given the brush off. That may be my last trip to Paul Stuart.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Hard to say whether that was sheer incompetence or them trying to give you the brush off. Not good either way. Despite that some of us can eyeball one's size at our store (I haven't gotten that good yet), it's policy to measure someone first.



catside said:


> Maybe you should accumulate some capital, move to northeast and revive one of the old school shops that had a good name but long gone. Names should be purchased fairly cheap now that they are long gone. With the right combination of internet and retail the business should be profitable, epaulet comes to mind but a more trad version.


Oh, if only. I'd enjoy that quite a bit.



Nobleprofessor said:


> I think the thing that is getting lost in all this is a general lack of courtesy and respect. Part of being a gentleman (which I hope every man desires to be) is being courteous and respectful to everyone. That means the store employee should be courteous and the customer should also!
> 
> If someone behaves like a jerk, you can always say, "Sir, I will continue to treat you like a gentleman. Not because you are one, but because I am one."


Precisely.

I'm loving all these, "You must have done something wrong," assertions in this thread.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Nobleprofessor said:


> If someone behaves like a jerk, you can always say, "Sir, I will continue to treat you like a gentleman. Not because you are one, but because I am one."


That's a good one. I'll try that next time and hope that I only get a drink thrown at my face and not a fist.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

The best way to respond to someone who's uncivil is to take the high road and just be overly friendly yourself. Annoyingly so. Smile your biggest smile, and act like you don't even notice their incivility. No need to call them on not being a gentleman.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

sometimes the customer service people behind the counter think that the customer isn't always right but if you're experiencing bad service just walk out.


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## Bernie Zack (Feb 10, 2010)

Hope I am not straying too far from the point of the thread with this comment, but I feel compelled to relay two recent experiences that I had with sales folks. The first was over the phone with Ben Silver. It was my first experience. The customer service rep was fantastic. I asked the young lady ("Allison" was her name) if she could give me the vest measurements, since they were not listed in the catalogue. She actually put the phone down, went down to the store, pulled the exact vest from the rack, brought it up and measured it for me while I was on the line. I mention this because about a week before, I was interested in a vest from B/B, and the response I got was, "It should measure as any standard size 46." Gee, thanks for going the extra mile! I realize these are two very different stores, but good customer service is noticed.

The second experience was at Dillards. Again, a vest, but this time I was shopping in the store. The manager of the men's department ("Kennard" was his name) was an older, mature fellow. ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC customer service. Helped me put it on, made suggestions of sport coats, trousers, and shirts that would go with the vest, engaged in talk about MY clothing desires, etc. He understood that good customer service results in higher sales, and hence, higher commissions.

I guess I just wanted to give props to these two stores. I was very pleased with my experiences there. I'm sorry that your experience was not good at J. Press. I ordered a plaid madras sport coat (got some great comments from folks here at Ask Andy - the best one suggested that I spill a martini on the coat before I go out!!! LOL!) from the store in Connecticut 2 years ago (over the phone). The customer service was great. the gentleman there actually called another store (I believe it was in NYC) to see if they had my size in the coat I was looking for. He found it and made a sale. Best of luck in your future purchases.


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## Dcr5468 (Jul 11, 2015)

rwaldron said:


> The closest I've been to any store of that type is Perlis, which I've been to more times than I can count. every time I go there, it is different, but there are a couple unspoken rules that I've noticed:
> 
> 1. the stuff between the door and the register can be browsed and perused without much interaction from the staff. This stuff includes ties and seasonal shirts, maybe some fun belts, or some grooming products. If you would like to look at suits, etc., you aren't going to really be welcome to peruse by yourself.
> 2. If you are not approached by the staff, they are more than happy to help upon request. They might seem to be ignoring you, but they may be filling a phone or internet order, checking on alterations for a customer who is about to come in, etc.
> ...


3) his name is Patrick. I have not been in that store for over 20 years but I explained what I was looking for and he took the time and effort to fit me for a tux and accessories, even though they are super busy with Mardi Gras balls this time of year.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

I invariably dress well when visiting upscale retailers because I'm realist. However, I understand, and the owner and sales associates should, that any purchase will be discretionary. This is not shopping for grocery staples. If I do not receive courteous attention soon after I enter, I leave immediately. There are plenty of other places, including the internet.


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

I believe its a sales technique. They frown on browsing because they want to put you under psychological obligation to buy something. Sometimes they also want you to believe they do you a favor by noticing you, and to even let you in the store. Prevalent in places that cater to a certain status conscious clientele. When they know you it becomes worse because they start recommending stuff to you which they expect you to buy on account of ersatz friendship. Don't let it bother you, its not personal.


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## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

Bleedblue said:


> *Having gone to college where JPress was founded*, I've come to regard the casual attitude and occasional snobbery as part of the charm of JPress. Students drove the majority of business for that JPress, but the SAs were still not the best - and that's OK! Just go about your business and accost an SA if you need them - life is too short to worry about who's nice and who's rude to you. And dress however the hell you like to go shopping.
> 
> (I will say, though, that JPress did reach a nadir when an SA in DC treated me like an abject moron for inquiring if they carried a specific affiliation scarf - a staple item for 80 years - haughtily telling me that he'd never heard of such a thing and that I might do better looking at JAB. But hey, now I have a funny story and lost nothing except, er, my standing in someone's eyes who I don't care about?)


That's an interesting circumlocution for "I went to Yale." I usually prefer "a finishing school on the shore of the Long Island Sound." 

Jest aside, I know of only person one person who bought stuff from J Press as an undergrad. Perhaps my friends were not as well off as the average Yalie, but i just don't recall many venturing into the hallowed halls of J Press.

The first time I went in to make a purchase, I recall one sales associate lamenting the quality of cloth worn by the student population and particularly directed his rant toward products from J Crew. This made me feel quite self-conscious as that's where I purchased the majority of my preppier items (most on heavy discounts), and I didn't dare to venture back until I graduated and had some income. I did eventually buy a sportcoat from the shop with the money I saved from my grad school stipend and wore the said sportcoat everywhere i went.



Patrick06790 said:


> I think you guys have now thoroughly pulverized the original topic. You are now in the Realm of Mutant Threads.
> 
> Let's keep that mutation rolling. I rarely fly. I hate flying. It is a giant pain in the neck.
> 
> But when I do fly I wear a coat and tie. It really makes a difference. Security people are polite. Stewardesses are politer. It works on everybody. Young ladies smile. Mothers ask me to watch their infants while they make a mad dash for the ladies. Dogs would follow me, if they allowed dogs in airports, which they don't, which is yet another reason why I dislike flying.


Funny you mention that as I do the same thing, and I think it's the tie that does the trick. I may be sitting way down in cattle class (i mean coach), but having a classy tie certainly seems to elicit better responses from flight attendants and agents at the gate. That said, when my dad saw me at the airport, his first reaction was "not this decadent dandy look again." Guess you can't please everyone...



32rollandrock said:


> ^^
> 
> It's been awhile since I bought anything from Press, but when I did, I never had an issue. Indeed, they once accepted a return on a clearance sweater I foolishly didn't try on for at least six months, and I think much longer, after purchase. It didn't fit and they had no obligation to take it back, but they did. Trevor at the D.C. store was once heralded here as a stand-up, helpful guy, and he once found me a navy blazer at an astonishingly low price (I think it was around $160). *Not sure if it is still true, but it used to be that calling the store to buy stuff worked much better than going through the J. Press website/mail order operation, *which was, and might still be, notoriously difficult. The folks at the stores, at least via telephone, were knowledgeable, courteous and helpful.


It certainly is. After all, that's how I located the sportcoat I bought last week. The website has indicated that a particular jacket in size 38 was sold out, but a gentleman in the New Haven store was able to locate one.


ThatDudeOrion said:


> +1 million
> The service, or lack thereof, that adoucett received is not uncommon and is occurring with ever increasing regularity, across all aspects of retail and service oriented businesses, the rub is that Press and Andover aren't big enough to pull off the current prevailing retail business model of "treat the customer like crap, they still have to buy our stuff because our multinational conglomerate destroyed any semblance of competition in the market." The Andover Shop will close soon enough and this type of service will be part of the reason why. *Press is also doomed to suffer one of a couple fates, I see them either going bankrupt and ceasing operations, or possibly being resurrected by an unbroken chain of inept private equity investors like BB, *or they'll simply dilute the Press brand that we know and love and shift the product line more and more towards the York St. or whatever they call it, or some combo of the above. I have my doubts as to whether Press will actually open their new location in NYC. My bet is that O'Connell's will be the last man standing. No matter how much we all want it, we aren't experiencing a resurgence of TNSIL, quite the opposite actually. Patronize these places at your own peril, while you still can. I must have read a hundred case studies in B school just like this.


From what I heard, their Japanese sales volume is far greater than what they sell Stateside, so perhaps the powers that be will keep the U.S. stores afloat as loss leaders...



richard warren said:


> I believe its a sales technique. They frown on browsing because they want to put you under psychological obligation to buy something. Sometimes they also want you to believe they do you a favor by noticing you, and to even let you in the store. Prevalent in places that cater to a certain status conscious clientele. When they know you it becomes worse because they start recommending stuff to you which they expect you to buy on account of ersatz friendship. Don't let it bother you, its not personal.


There are studies done on the snooty sales tactic, and the general consensus is that it works in the short term as the customer wants to feel validated; however, the long term effects are detrimental.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

richard warren said:


> I believe its a sales technique. They frown on browsing because they want to put you under psychological obligation to buy something. Sometimes they also want you to believe they do you a favor by noticing you, and to even let you in the store. Prevalent in places that cater to a certain status conscious clientele. When they know you it becomes worse because they start recommending stuff to you which they expect you to buy on account of ersatz friendship. Don't let it bother you, its not personal.


I posted it in another thread a while back, but I read an interesting article about a study that was done on rude salespeople and effects on sales in high end stores. The study found that the more insecure a customer was, the more likely they would be to make a purchase, the thought being that the consumer is subconciously trying to garner approval from the sales person. I don't have the article on hand, but I found it interesting.

of course, it could be that they're just crotchety in their old age ("damn kids with your rock n roll! Git outta mah shop!")

Edit: Ah, eschappist beat me to it, I didn't see that section of your post


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I walked into the DC Press store for the first time this morning. Qualifiers: I'm 54, and dressed up. In any case they couldn't have been nicer.


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## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

orange fury said:


> I posted it in another thread a while back, but I read an interesting article about a study that was done on rude salespeople and effects on sales in high end stores. The study found that the more insecure a customer was, the more likely they would be to make a purchase, the thought being that the consumer is subconciously trying to garner approval from the sales person. I don't have the article on hand, but I found it interesting.
> 
> of course, it could be that they're just crotchety in their old age ("damn kids with your rock n roll! Git outta mah shop!")
> 
> Edit: Ah, eschappist beat me to it, I didn't see that section of your post


it's all good . i first heard of the study while listening to a podcast, which links to the aforementioned study

https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05...ney/snobby-salespeople-sell-more-luxury-goods

Though these days I feel perfectly at ease perusing the offerings at Brooks or Press, I think i would still feel "inadequate" walking into a boutique of one of those LVMH brands.



SlideGuitarist said:


> I walked into the DC Press store for the first time this morning. Qualifiers: I'm 54, and dressed up. In any case they couldn't have been nicer.


agreed. I saw in another thread that you were looking to purchase a tweed sportcoat. Were you able to find anything to your liking?


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

It's not Trad to be snooty or condescending in any context.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

gamma68 said:


> It's not Trad to be snooty or condescending in any context.


This. I may venture into a J Press if I am ever in the location where one is, but I will certainly be watching for any signs of poor customer service.


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## CSG (Nov 22, 2011)

Sometimes, it's a good thing to live in small town Idaho where the only men's shop in town in Men's Wearhouse...

(I have to buy my clothes online)


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

echappist said:


> I saw in another thread that you were looking to purchase a tweed sportcoat. Were you able to find anything to your liking?


Heck, yeah! But no OTR jackets in my size: 46L. Not even close. In the end, I ordered something very AmTradly: a tan sport coat to replace a beloved and dilapidated camel hair sport coat.

I agree with the suggestion that one should walk into a boutique dressed at least competently, within one's idiom. It makes it easier for the SA to know where you both stand. Still, adoucett knows what he's doing, and I wouldn't countenance rudeness any more than he should.

At my lowest ebb, after finishing my Ph.D., I actually had to deliver Vietnamese carryout in Ithaca, NY. In winter. Since I'd already acquired the affectation of wearing Florsheim gunboats, I got an old herringbone tweed at a second-hand store there, and that was my "work rig." I always got the most tips. Of course, that might have been because customers felt sorry for me.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

SlideGuitarist said:


> At my lowest ebb, after finishing my Ph.D., I actually had to deliver Vietnamese carryout in Ithaca, NY.
> 
> You make light of it, and have obviously survived and prospered, but that sort of job is all too often the only kind new Ph.D's can find these days, especially if their degrees are in the humanities. Off the subject but I felt like mentioning it.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

gamma68 said:


> It's not Trad to be snooty or condescending in any context.


I also can't imagine that it would help sales. I _would_ expect it to be a deliberate sales tactic for more-money-than-sense stores such as Zegna (I actually experienced this at the Zegna store near Stanford University; I ended up walking to the Brooks Bros. store and buying some socks).


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

its a technique that seems to work for a merchant that has a clientele from a limited population that sees itself and is seen as an elite, so the patronage of the store can be seen as an indication of group membership


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

SlideGuitarist said:


> I walked into the DC Press store for the first time this morning. Qualifiers: I'm 54, and dressed up. In any case they couldn't have been nicer.


My experience too, even when I arrive on my bicycle in shorts and a frayed polo shirt.

I visited the NYC store once and they were super, in particular the woman sales rep whose name I can't remember.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

godan said:


> SlideGuitarist said:
> 
> 
> > At my lowest ebb, after finishing my Ph.D., I actually had to deliver Vietnamese carryout in Ithaca, NY.
> ...


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

vpkozel said:


> This. I may venture into a J Press if I am ever in the location where one is, but I will certainly be watching for any signs of poor customer service.


This is why all of my JPress items have come from thrift stores. However, is it ethical to build a wardrobe from thrift store inventory? Maybe someone should start a thread about the ethics of thrifting a wardrobe. :evil:


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## echappist (Dec 14, 2007)

SlideGuitarist said:


> I make light of it because, well, that's what I do, but honestly, I was so relieved to hand in my dissertation (which was rejected at first, or rather, accepted only pending a huge rewrite, during which I lived in my mom's basement [wow, the clichés keep coming]) that I didn't notice for a while how precarious my position actually was.
> 
> I was lucky enough to still know how to code in C and C++, which finally landed me a Silicon Valley entry-level job in '98.
> 
> ...


i can definitely commiserate, though I never had things that badly. There was a period during which i took off time from school and was "hustling" to make ends meet by driving an hour just for an hour-long tutoring appointment. Grad student life is just miserable, even more so as I was living in NYC. I had neither the time nor the money to enjoy the diversions that the city offered, though I was fortunate to have attended a few jazz concerts at Lincoln Center. I was penny-pinching so much that I rode my bike everywhere as I was loath to pay for subway fare.

Having the discretionary income to buy fancy stuff for myself is nice, but more importantly, it allowed me to be able to afford nicer presents for the people I care about.


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