# John Lobb vs. John Lobb



## constantmystery (Apr 18, 2006)

I seem to recall in one of Flusser's books a comparison of John Lobb Paris and John Lobb London and the relative quality of the shoes.
I recall he came down on the side of the Paris manufacturer...didn't he?

Anyway, I purchased some Lobbs from Hermes some years back and although they no longer have that franchise, who ended up with it besides,NM and Wilkes Bashford on the west coast?
Any discussion of the two Lobbs would be appreciated
thanks


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

London is bespoke only. Hermes acquired the Paris branch from the Lobb family in 1974 and used it to launch the RTW brand. Hermes still owns the brand, but today largely sells the shoes out of freestanding Lobb shops and not Hermes stores.

Flusser's comments concerned only the relative merits of the London v. the Paris bespoke product. I agree with his assessment.


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

so all the Lobb in NM and the Hermes stamped Lobb in Hermes stores are all Hermes owned?

i thought Hermes only owned the Paris division of Lobb and thus stamped them Hermes.
and the NM Lobb were still the original John Lobb? or am i confused?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Brian13 said:


> so all the Lobb in NM and the Hermes stamped Lobb in Hermes stores are all Hermes owned?
> 
> i thought Hermes only owned the Paris division of Lobb and thus stamped them Hermes.
> and the NM Lobb were still the original John Lobb? or am i confused?


Yes, Hermes owns the John Lobb RTW brand and all the freestanding John Lobb stores except the St. James, London, shop, which is still owned by the Lobb family and which only makes bespoke shoes. Any Lobb RTW shoe is made by a sub-division of Hermes.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

"Original" John Lobb (i.e., Lobb St. James, or Lobb of London) doesn't make RTW for Neiman Marcus or anyone else. If you bought it in a store, it's Lobb of Paris (even though it might be made in England).


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

The Neiman Marcus John Lobbs are made by John Lobb (Paris) in a former Edward Green factory in Northampton. As manton notes, the "original" John Lobb (St. James's) does not make any ready-to-wear shoes.

Misunderstandings about this are rather common. First, the names are the same. Second, they share a long history. Third, John Lobb Paris makes shoes in the UK and has a shop in London. Here's the simple distinction. All John Lobb ready-to-wear shoes are made by (what we term) John Lobb Paris (www.johnlobb.com, which is owned by Hermes) and which manufactures most of its footwear in a factory in Northampton, England. The other John Lobb (the one we term John Lobb St. James's www.johnlobbltd.co.uk) only makes bespoke shoes, which it calls "made-to-measure." Both John Lobbs make footwear -- whether it be bespoke or ready-to-wear -- of the highest quality.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

*Lobbs*

For the sake of completeness: there is a 'John Lobb (Paris)' branch in Jermyn Street around the corner from 'John Lobb' in St James's Street.

Trimmer


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

The original firm was founded by John Lobb in 18somethingorother. Like a lot of the top bespoke makers in London, the family founded a Paris branch, I believe before WWI. (Poole and H&K would be examples of other West End firms that had Paris branches; Poole's closed in 1940). The two Lobb shops made only bespoke shoes. The Lobb family owned both shops until 1974, when they sold the Paris branch to Hermes. Hermes also aquired the rights to use the John Lobb name as a RTW shoe brand. Hermes spent a long time -- more than ten years -- developing the RTW lasts and line before launching the brand.

The London shop on St. James Street is still owned by the Lobb family, and only makes bespoke shoes. Every other John Lobb shop (including the one I remember being on Conduit Street; is it gone?) is owned by Hermes and sells the Lobb Paris RTW shoes. The Paris branch also makes bespoke shoes, and does trunk shows in the various Lobb RTW shops. Lobb St. James travels to the US and takes orders in hotel suits, much like the travelling Savile Row taiors.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

manton said:


> The original firm was founded by John Lobb in 18somethingorother.


I believe he first set up shop in Sydney around 1858. He began sending shoes to England in 1862 and eventually made his way to London to set up his firm a few years thereafter.



> Like a lot of the top bespoke makers in London, the family founded a Paris branch, I believe before WWI. (Poole and H&K would be examples of other West End firms that had Paris branches; Poole's closed in 1940). The two Lobb shops made only bespoke shoes.


I believe the Paris branch dates back to 1901.



> The Lobb family owned both shops until 1974, when they sold the Paris branch to Hermes. Hermes also aquired the rights to use the John Lobb name as a RTW shoe brand. Hermes spent a long time -- more than ten years -- developing the RTW lasts and line before launching the brand.


I'm not sure the sale was finally consummated until shortly thereafter and there is some evidence that John Lobb St. James's continued to receive a royalty on shoes sold after that.



> The London shop on St. James Street is still owned by the Lobb family, and only makes bespoke shoes. Every other John Lobb shop (including the one I remember being on Conduit Street; is it gone?) is owned by Hermes and sells the Lobb Paris RTW shoes.


One now finds it on Jermyn Street, I believe.



> The Paris branch also makes bespoke shoes, and does trunk shows in the various Lobb RTW shops. Lobb St. James travels to the US and takes orders in hotel suits, much like the travelling Savile Row taiors.


So many choices; so little time and money.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Sydney? I have read the little vanity book. I thought he was from Cornwall ...

I wouldn't be surprised if they received a royalty still. It's a very valuable brand name -- too valuable to sell the rights outright, one would think.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Your recollection is correct. There is that wonderful story of how he walked the 200 miles from his home in Corwall to London. But while Lobb trained as a bootmaker in England, he subsequently went to Australia to try to make his fortune among the gold fields. He was unsuccessful in that endeavour but began designing boots for prospectors. The rest, as they say, is history.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

medwards said:


> My recollection is that after training as a bootmaker in England, John Lobb went to Australia to try to make his fortune mining gold. He was unsuccessfu in that endeavour but began designing boots for miners. The rest, as they say, is history.


Ah, now that you mention it, it's coming back to me ... Wasn't he also missing a foot? Or something?


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Yes, an accident at age 12 left him with a crippled leg. By the way, his first London shop was opened in 1866 at 296 Regent Street. One remarkable aspect to this story is that when he opened this shop, he had already won a medal at the London Exposition of 1862 for his bootmaking and had landed a Royal warrant in 1863..despite the fact he was half-way round the world at the time...a tribute to his skill, audacity, and ingenuity.


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## constantmystery (Apr 18, 2006)

*many thanks guys, for clearing up the inaccuracy..*

yet another great reason that AAAC is the best clothing forum online!


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

manton said:


> Sydney? I have read the little vanity book. I thought he was from Cornwall ...
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if they received a royalty still. It's a very valuable brand name -- too valuable to sell the rights outright, one would think.


Oh yes there is indeed an Aussie connection:

_John Lobb trained as a bootmaker in London before moving to Australia to try his luck in the goldfields. He never found his fortune in gold but instead came up with the brainwave of making hollow heeled boots for prospectors to hide their gold. The idea caught on and John Lobb set himself up in business in Sydney in 1858. When the Great Exhibition came along in 1862 he sent a pair of his boots along and won a gold medal for their quality. Twelve months later he sent a pair of his riding boots to the Prince of Wales and was awarded a Royal Warrant. He returned to London and established a business " John Lobb, Bootmaker" which continues to trade as the world's most famous bespoke shoemaking establishment._

Quoted from:


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

medwards said:


> I'm not sure the sale was finally consummated until shortly thereafter and there is some evidence that John Lobb St. James's continued to receive a royalty on shoes sold after that.


I suspect that your source for this evidence may be the same as mine. Regardless, it makes sense, especially in light of the fact that some of the original RTW models were based on bespoke models that Lobb is well-known for (the William, for example). If the Lobb family isn't getting royalties from Hermes, they should fire their solicitors.


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## Brax (Dec 3, 2005)

Hey, let's not forget that besides shoes and boots John Lobb, St. James makes wonderful ice skates with blades that detach. I hear that they can only be found on ebay for about $10,000.


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

so why is lobb paris bespoke better that lobb st james bespoke?


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

I will buy those 10k skates for my museum. I will call the display "Bob Loblaw's Lobbs"


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

luk-cha said:


> so why is lobb paris bespoke better that lobb st james bespoke?


The quality and style of the lastmaking for Lobb Paris is reputed to be better, as is the quality of the make, which, on the Lobb Paris shoes that I have seen is superb and unsurpassed.


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

jcusey said:


> The quality and style of the lastmaking for Lobb Paris is reputed to be better, as is the quality of the make, which, on the Lobb Paris shoes that I have seen is superb and unsurpassed.


so pound for pound if there was a world cup for shoe making lobb paris would come out on top?


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

luk-cha said:


> so pound for pound if there was a world cup for shoe making lobb paris would come out on top?


At or near the top. Gaziano could get there in a few years. I have never seen a Suzuki shoe in person, but they look great online. None of the Italians has impressed me as much. Gatto looked to be the best to me, but I would put Lobb Paris ahead of them.


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

manton said:


> At or near the top. Gaziano could get there in a few years. I have never seen a Suzuki shoe in person, but they look great online. None of the Italians has impressed me as much. Gatto looked to be the best to me, but I would put Lobb Paris ahead of them.


why would you say if would take gaziano a few years still, to maintain a consistant product each time? also what in your opinion is the most beautiful shoe - i remember another thread where some said it was gazianos bespoke version of his hayes - me personally would have a hard choice between that one and the black suzuki toe cap oxford he did for jun kuwana!


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

The most beautiful shoes I have seen in person are from Lobb Paris. It would be hard to name a specific model.


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

medwards said:


> Your recollection is correct. There is that wonderful story of how he walked the 200 miles from his home in Corwall to London. But while Lobb trained as a bootmaker in England, he subsequently went to Australia to try to make his fortune among the gold fields. He was unsuccessful in that endeavour but began designing boots for prospectors. The rest, as they say, is history.


You guys are remarkable; a tremendous resource.

I can only watch with admiration and amazement as you recount the history, not only of the brand, but of the man who gave birth to the brand, down to his physical impairment, all from a vantage point 150 removed. Un-fu_kin' believable.

More power to you both; suddenly, I feel like a midget among giants -- friendly giants, to be sure, but giants nonetheless.


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

manton said:


> The most beautiful shoes I have seen in person are from Lobb Paris. It would be hard to name a specific model.


Unless you're suggesting that all the shoes you've seen from Lobb Paris are (from the source of their origin) the most beautiful shoes in the world, you must have a model or two (or three or four) in mind. C'mon, give us something. Can't you tell we're eager to know what you consider to be the most beautiful shoe.

Its almost November 7 -- time to choose a candidate! Give it up.


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## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

LARon said:


> Unless you're suggesting that all the shoes you've seen from Lobb Paris are (from the source of their origin) the most beautiful shoes in the world, you must have a model or two (or three or four) in mind. C'mon, give us something. Can't you tell we're eager to know what you consider to be the most beautiful shoe.
> 
> Its almost November 7 -- time to choose a candidate! Give it up.


ditto" or at least a pic! stop being so PC !


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

manton said:


> The most beautiful shoes I have seen in person are from Lobb Paris. It would be hard to name a specific model.


The most beautiful in terms of style or construction?

There is little question that the Hermes Lobb is more comfortable and adept at making more innovative looking and stylishly modern shoes than its London competitor. But the old London John Lobb still makes the finest classic footwear in the world.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> But the old London John Lobb still makes the finest classic footwear in the world.


How do you know? Do you have any? Are you basing this on fit, esthetics or something else?

I personally think the Foster & Son/Henry Maxwell models made for Jun Kuwana are gorgeous, as are the sample models in pictures of their window. The Lobb Paris bespoke models I saw in their shop pre-renovation were beautiful, although I don't know if they're emblematic of what's made today.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

If you are asking, have I tried all the other shoemakers in the world, the answer is no. But I have seen the work of most of the British, French and Italian shoemakers and I have seen no evidence that any of them make a superior product...though beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Have I seen spectacularly styled shoes from other sources. Yes. But in the end, I side with the chaps in St. James's Street. I will confess that I have been a John Lobb customer for all of my adult life. I would suggest there is a reason for that!


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> The most beautiful in terms of style or construction?


Both. I only own the Paris shoe, but I have been in the London shop many times, and seen several clients' finished product. The Paris shoe just appears to be better made, and definitely better finished.

I also like their lasts a lot better. The Lobb St. James lasts are more bulbous by comparison, and less "individualized" looking for the customer's foot. The Lobb Paris lasts scream "bespoke" without being outlandish.

As to the designs, each can do a classic shoe. Lobb Paris just does them ever so slightly better, in my view.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

I am not terribly inclined to play the ranking game though I do understand that manton was specifically asked to do so. To my mind and eye, different shoemakers are simply different. Yes, there are aspects of quality and workmanship that can be quantified, but there are also elements of style and feel that are very much matters of personal taste. Moreover, how important these distinctions are is clearly an individual value judgment. Which reminds me that some may well want to add cost into the equation. I certainly understand why manton would find a preference John Lobb Paris bespoke and I can see why Mr. Chatterbox would hold steadfast to his choice of shoemaker.

Here's my assessment of the two (with the admission that it has been many, many years since John Lobb St. James's has made for me and I have not availed myself of the John Lobb Paris experience). These observations are based on seeing many examples of both their work and having had far more conversations on this topic with customers of both and with other shoemakers than I care to admit.

John Lobb St. James's indeed makes a classic shoe, excellently crafted and very well styled in a very traditional British sense. What manton terms "bulbous," I find rounded with a high primacy on fit and comfort. While one will not find much (if any) help with new and innovative designs here, the Lobb catalogue is replete with some simply superb past models. And while the firm does not seem to put too much stock into the kind of colours and finishes for which John Lobb Paris or Edward Green are known, they do use some beautiful and oft-times unusual leathers that provide a unique look and certainly give the sense that these are indeed bespoke. This seems particularly true with their country and less formal offerings. John Lobb Paris undoubtedly can make a classic shoe, but it also can craft a very sleek and elegant shoe, a shoe with a more modern and sophisticated feel. The workmanship that I have seen is first rate and there appears to be a greater interest in line and design. I have heard the word "sublime" attached to some John Lobb Paris work; the adjective most attached to John Lobb St. James's might be "excellent." 

What a wonderful predicament: having to decide between these two exceptional shoemakers!

Of course, in my own case, I have made a different choice and have stayed with it for quite some time. I have not spent any time trying to assess where Cleverley's shoes are on some bespoke shoe pyramid. All I can say is that they make a perfect shoe for me. What more could I want?  

BTW, a little side note: Earlier there was a question about the distinctions between the various John Lobb Paris websites (which differ by country). One difference is that the made-to-measure pages do not appear on the UK site -- a result of an agreement for JL Paris not to offer bespoke in the UK, perhaps? Does JL Paris take measurements for such offerings at its Jermyn Street shop?


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

medwards said:


> BTW, a little side note: Earlier there was a question about the distinctions between the various John Lobb Paris websites (which differ by country). One difference is that the made-to-measure pages do not appear on the UK site -- a result of an agreement for JL Paris not to offer bespoke in the UK, perhaps? Does JL Paris take measurements for such offerings at its Jermyn Street shop?


As our friend Kaga likes to say on Styleforum, "If my memory serves me correctly," I remember reading here a while ago that the Lobb Paris shops in Britain referred people seeking bespoke shoes to the Lobb London shop.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Thank you, RJman. That does strike a bell. Id be interested in Mr. Chatterbox 's asessment of your suggestion of Henry Maxwell. Was it not tucked into the basement of his favorite tailor, H. Huntsman, for some time? :icon_smile:


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Exceptional riding boots in the past...but I don't ride (at least not horses). :icon_smile_big:


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

manton said:


> Both. I only own the Paris shoe, but I have been in the London shop many times, and seen several clients' finished product. The Paris shoe just appears to be better made, and definitely better finished.
> 
> I also like their lasts a lot better. The Lobb St. James lasts are more bulbous by comparison, and less "individualized" looking for the customer's foot. The Lobb Paris lasts scream "bespoke" without being outlandish.
> 
> As to the designs, each can do a classic shoe. Lobb Paris just does them ever so slightly better, in my view.


Perhaps this would be a good place for customers of these two establishments to post photographs of their respective shoes?


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

I was in Paris a couple of weeks ago and bought a pair for my husband, he loved them so much, I decided to read up about them. Here is what I've found on Wikipedia ... hope that helps.

John Lobb Bootmaker is a company which manufactures and retails a very exclusive luxury brand of shoes and boots mainly for men, but also for women. It is based near St James's Palace, London.
Hermès acquired John Lobb in 1976. It tookover over all operations except for the original John Lobb shoe shop in London. The original, family-owned Lobb still handmakes shoes one pair at a time, while Hermès broadened the reach of the John Lobb brandname through its ready-to-wear line.
Hermès' John Lobb shoes are available in both ready-to-wear and made-to-measure. Its motto is "The Bare Maximum for a Man".
Hermès' John Lobb shoes are sold in its own boutiques or in luxury department stores such as Harrods, Selfridges, Neiman Marcus and Lane Crawford.


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

i havent taken the time to read all the above, but is there any mention regards to the quality of JL paris RTW after Hermes take over?

i have the brampton , acquired recently through NM, 
but although a nice pretty little shoe, i would imagine that John Lobb Paris rtw was a bit more substantial and a better value 
prior to the Hermes bought them out?

any one with experience to this? thanks.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Brian13 said:


> i havent taken the time to read all the above, but is there any mention regards to the quality of JL paris RTW after Hermes take over?
> 
> i have the brampton , acquired recently through NM,
> but although a nice pretty little shoe, i would imagine that John Lobb Paris rtw was a bit more substantial and a better value
> ...


I would not go around assuming that being part of Hermes lowers quality. I cannot think of a brand that has overall better quality products than Hermes.


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

well, my point is that John Lobb manufacture may be of top shoe-purist methodology and materials, and any brand name take over (no matter how good they are) will just deviate from that purist methodology and skimp in areas to lower costs (so many examples of this: Prada, etc)

It may not even be a quality lowering issue: can be something like Lobb used to use stitch 'a' but after Hermes took over, they use a more universal stitch 'b'
...
something like that, just wondering if Lobb shoes rtw has changed somewhat due to their take overance?


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

There was no RTW John Lobb until Hermes so they can hardly have changed anything.


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## bespoke therapy (May 12, 2005)

Brian13 said:


> well, my point is that John Lobb manufacture may be of top shoe-purist methodology and materials, and any brand name take over (no matter how good they are) will just deviate from that purist methodology and skimp in areas to lower costs (so many examples of this: Prada, etc)
> 
> It may not even be a quality lowering issue: can be something like Lobb used to use stitch 'a' but after Hermes took over, they use a more universal stitch 'b'
> ...
> something like that, just wondering if Lobb shoes rtw has changed somewhat due to their take overance?


------------------------------------------
well, Hermes is not just any brand where leather is concerned- recall they began as a saddlemaker. I have found them fairly fanatical regarding the quality of their leather products.


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

Brian13 said:


> i havent taken the time to read all the above,
> 
> just wondering if Lobb shoes rtw has changed somewhat due to their take overance?


Priceless. (You just can't make this stuff up; no one would ever believe these things could be said.)

Reminds me of a saying by Lincoln: "It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

The 1 pair of Lobb that my husband has is so nice, that he is considering having a bespoke pair made when he visits London for business. He prefers bespoke, as he dislikes making decisions on attire. They understand what he does, what he needs and leads him down the right path without wasting too much of his time. Bespoke is a relationship that you keep for a very long time, there is a quiet understanding about the needs of their client.

With respect to Hermes, they are indeed fanatical about their quality. While others are scrambling to locate the cheapest location to manufacture their products, Hermes have never waver from their tradition of only 150 craftsmen in France to manufacture all their leather products. Their bags are started and finished by 1 craftsman and it will bear his stamp on the bag (a very small one). Instead of a cloth lining, it will be lined with leather, usually lambskin. In a nutshell, there is no machine involve in this process, the leather is cut by hand, glued, it is then marked, hand-punched and sewn. So, therefore, I highly doubt that Hermes will buy an old established name like John Lobb only to demolish it. I can even go so far as to suggest that John Lobb would have had exclusion clauses attached to the sale of his family establishment to Hermes regarding quality and manufacturing. 

You can have made-to-measure in Paris, not bespoke. Nevertheless, there is much confusion over made-to-measure and bespoke. Made-to-measure is when they have a number of standard lasts or sizes and fit your measurements to their existing lasts. Bespoke is when a last is crafted out especially for your feet and will have your name on it for future orders. This is not any different from made-to-measure and bespoke tailoring. 

Your shoes will last as long as you are willing to take the right steps to care for it. Regardless of how good it is, if you neglect them, it will surely need replacing. Here is a list of to-dos that will help to ensure the lifespan of your shoes: 
Before you wear your new shoes, bring them to a cobbler and have Vibram soles (Vibram has wonderful soles for dress shoes) place on the bottom of the soles. (2) Apply a good layer of water resistant protective 'cream' and stain remover. (3) Keep them clean after each wear, as the dirt will eat into the protective layer of your shoes, a good brush is fast and easy. (4) Please change your socks after each wear, frankly, not earth-shattering news here. (5) Shoe trees are a necessity. If they are at least a year old, consider replacing the Vibram sole for another one and refurbishing the leather. The oldest pair in my husband’s shoe wardrobe is his 12 year-old JM Weston, still going strong, so, give your shoes a little TLC.

And last but not least, before you put your best foot forward, let’s not forget that you are all gentlemen here.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Hedonist said:


> You can have made-to-measure in Paris, not bespoke.


No doubt this is news to the Lobb Paris bespoke customers here, to Alan Flusser, to Philippe Atienza, director of bespoke at Lobb Paris, and to the ghost of Basil Zaharoff.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

I believe "made-to-measure" is what both John Lobb Paris and John Lobb London call their bespoke offerings, are they not?


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> I believe "made-to-measure" is what both John Lobb Paris and John Lobb London call their bespoke offerings, are they not?


Hi Mr Chatterbox,

If you look at the london website https://www.johnlobbltd.co.uk/ it's bespoke.

At Hermes https://www.johnlobb.com/ site, it's made-to-measure. Again, as I've mentioned above, there is alot of confusion over made-to-measure and bespoke.

As most of our attire is bespoke, we have had the opportunity to have this point clarify to us.

Maybe others know it to be different.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Thank you, my dear Hedonist, put if you click on this John Lobb London link, I believe you will see that they term their bespoke shoes "made to measure."


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

If I recall, he makes them personally, whereas in Paris or other locations, several people complete the made-to-measure. 

Nevertheless, as you live in London, maybe you can clarify this point for me and let me know. So, perhaps, my husband can just as easily go to Paris, which is closer for us anyway. 

Thanks, Mr Chatterbox.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Hedonist said:


> If I recall, he makes them personally, whereas in Paris or other locations, several people complete the made-to-measure.
> 
> Nevertheless, as you live in London, maybe you can clarify this point for me and let me know. So, perhaps, my husband can just as easily go to Paris, which is closer for us anyway.
> 
> Thanks, Mr Chatterbox.


Also, if you could kindly ask him to clarify on the bespoke and made-to-measure, that would be nice.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

"Made to Measure" is what John Lobb London terms its bespoke shoes. I have been a customer for a very long time. They do not offer ready-to-wear or made-to-order variations of stock models. All their shoes are bespoke.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> "Made to Measure" is what John Lobb London terms its bespoke shoes. I have been a customer for a very long time. They do not offer ready-to-wear or made-to-order variations of stock models. All their shoes are bespoke.


Bespoke is what I understand to be available in London. Start and finish by Mr Lobb himself.

The term that you used, 'made-to-order variations of stock models', that is what is really available in Paris, which is the reason why they never use the term 'bespoke'?


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

My understanding is that there are three options with John Lobb Paris -- ready-to-wear, special order variations of their ready-to-wear shoes, and bespoke. At least one esteemed member of this Forum has used this latter option and rates it the most beautiful bespoke shoe in the world. While he nd I may differ on this assessment, I cn assure you he know what _bespoke_ truly is.


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## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Hedonist said:


> Bespoke is what I understand to be available in London. Start and finish by Mr Lobb himself.


If you are suggesting that "Mr. Lobb" personally completely makes each and every shoe, I am afraid you are mistaken. But John Lobb does have experienced and expert craftsmen who indeed make a superior product.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

LOL!

And my husband complains about ladies clothing! Thanks, Mr. Chatterbox for all your help. 

As I’m a believer of trying something new, will suggest he go to the London store.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

FWIW, for a long time shoemakers used a different terminology than tailors. West End "bespoke" shoemakers would describe their product as "hand made to measure." Cleverley used to bill their services this way ("hand made to measure") and I believe Foster's still does. I'm not sure why they prefered to call their product "made to measure" as opposed to "bespoke"; no Savile Row tailor would ever use such a term, yet they practiced a roughly equivalent process. The roough equivalent to the individual customer's paper pattern was the individually carved last. You could choose nearly any skin (cloth). Design details were wide open. Etc. 

In France and in the rest of Europe, some variation of a cognate of "measure" was always used. Hence the term "sur measure" in France for "bespoke." But, to be clear, we are again talking about the same process. Both the Lobb London (St. James) shop and the Lobb Paris (Boissy d'Anglais) shop make fully bespoke shoes, and always have, whatever term they happened to be using at any given time.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Foster now use the term bespoke. At least in their website 

I will be able to confirm what they use on their invoices soon.


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

LARon said:


> Priceless. (You just can't make this stuff up; no one would ever believe these things could be said.)
> 
> Reminds me of a saying by Lincoln: "It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."


But how could i have known that JL RTW was not in existence prior to Hermes take overance? there is a first time to know anything!


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

which is exactly why you must read prior posts -- to learn what other members have said; after all, isn't the very reason you come here to learn something? if so, isn't that goal defeated when you make statements or ask questions without having read what was previously said?

secondly, not sure "take overance" is a real phrase


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

take-overance?
take-overocity? take-overness? sorry, having a don king moment here.


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## constantmystery (Apr 18, 2006)

*would gordon gekko be considered 'take-overacious"...*

as in rapacious? Or merely lacking in gracious...ness?


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## TimelesStyle (Aug 25, 2013)

Sorry to dredge up an ancient thread, but I had a question: Who makes Lobb's RTW accessories (small leather goods, gloves, bags and ties)? Are they made at the regular Lobb factories or is this outsourced?


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