# Trad and Disposable Income



## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Would someone who is more eloquent with words than I am please rephrase this question so that it makes sense.

Particularly after reading the threads about trad watches, I found myself wondering what impact does disposable income have on the quality of trad items you purchase.

For example JC Penny vintage chinos, timex watches, grosgrain watch bands, LE OCBDâ€™s, Weejuns, Sperry Top siders all may be trad, but there are other options. Iâ€™m talking more expensive, better quality options.
As one matures so do their tastes. 
As oneâ€™s disposable income matures, what? What happens?

If you have $10,000 in trad shoes and $5,000 in trad ties, would you have $5,000 dollars in Timex watches? Or would you buy a more costly trad equivalent?

Are trad items relative to income?
I'm reminded of Joe Morgan saying "only the good stuff". I don't think that is used out of context and I hope he doesn't mind my saying, but someone with that frame of mind has likely matured to a level financially to back it up. I wonder if that guy would buy a Timex? Not talking about Joe, necessarily?

Old beatup Volvo wagon vs. restored vintage 240d 
Weejuns vs. Aldens
JC Penny chino vs. Bills 
Timex versus Rolex
Etc, the list goes on

I wonder if American fogey is defined as being able to afford the better but opting for the latter more often than not?

Feeling like Mush mouth off Fat Albert,
Allen


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

oh dear, oh dear. the point has been missed completly. The values are about yankee thrift. You buy expensive stuff only if it will return value. A walmart watch is just as good as an expensive swiss model because it will last as long and fulfill its function as well. Edward green shoes are valued because they last a lifetime, just as will a well made suit, in a classic style that will always be out of fashion. 
Basically you have missed the point by a mile. Go back to square one. and stop looking at the ads in the fancy magazines.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> oh dear, oh dear. the point has been missed completly. The values are about yankee thrift. You buy expensive stuff only if it will return value. A walmart watch is just as good as an expensive swiss model because it will last as long and fulfill its function as well. Edward green shoes are valued because they last a lifetime, just as will a well made suit, in a classic style that will always be out of fashion.
> Basically you have missed the point by a mile. Go back to square one. and stop looking at the ads in the fancy magazines.


Oh I'm hearing you loud and clear. But I'm seeing something different.


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

My experience is that Aldens on sale from Brooks are the better value, they do last longer than what Bass produces today. Although I usually buy decent English shoes. A few pair will last you longer then a decade and will pay for themselves. Any quartz watch is a better value than an expensive swiss model. Hand tailored suits will probably serve you better, provided your size never changes, than fused models. Classic styles will always serve you better than trendy styles. 
that is sort of what it is about. "Investing rather then spending". Do I have that right? Isn't this all about the investor class?


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

you will have to elaborate on what you are seeing. But thrift and value for dollar is the heart of this sort of style. anything else is an aberration.


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

PPS I bought a pair of Bills for 90 bucks. they frayed at the cuffs after 3 or four years. not going there again. I'm going to look at Penneys.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

I think you are absolutely right in theory. Even without a sale, I think the Alden loafer is a better value than the Weejun. 
However, this falls apart when put into practice. Many on this board I would say would be fooling themselves to consider any additional clothing purchase of any kind an investment rather than an expenditure or flat out expense. I dare say there are several on this board who could go the rest of their life without another clothing purchase of any kind. Do you really need another good deal on a great pair of shoes when you already own enough to last this lifetime? Some maybe, but I doubt the clothing connoisseurs who frequent this board do. Just how many suits, blazers, coats, etc. do you need.

Do you really need a shot shell belt, etc? Even a good quality belt at a great price. 
The shirt I wore yesterday is 10 years old. I have 15 or so just like it. I didn't need another white shirt when I bought my last.

That type of stuff.
Don't hang me.
Just making an observation and asking questions.
Allen


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## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

I just dont think it's necessary to go there with clothes. Even the most well-made trad clothes are are within most people's financial reach! 

Some other areas in life worth splurging on, in my opinion. Here are some instances, I think, where you really do get what you pay for: 
- A moneypit of a boat
- High end audio (tube amps only!) 
- Good scotch and wine
- Good guns
- You children's schooling and weddings
- Vintage autos
- Vacation property
- A book collection
- An art collection

Big houses, gadgetry, modern luxury cars, etc are beyond boring to me. I will not waste money on things like that.


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## sweetness360 (Dec 13, 2005)

You have to remember with regard to clothing that everyone on this board is here for a reason, because they have an extra-ordinary interest in clothing. So perhaps while most trads do not buy excess amounts of clothing, the "wants" of this group are certainly going to be more than the average trad since we are all here discussing it. Not that there is anything wrong with that, after all, I'm just as guilty of wanting more nice clothes as everyone else.


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

I said on another thread that I don't buy many clothes any more. i really shouldn't be writing into this place at this point. But I do believe the point is to avoid fashion and spend money for value. sometimes this means spending a fair bit of money with the expectation that it will last. Of course we all have some hobbies, swiss watches may be a hobby for some (not for me). I do have a large collection of hand painted lead toy soldiers from the last century. And I do have a hobby of collecting antique American furniture, but the latter is often a good value compared to what you pay in a furniture store today. And I do shop for paintings that i like. No value there, but will you deny me all of life's pleasures?


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by PennGlock_
> 
> I just dont think it's necessary to go there with clothes. Even the most well-made trad clothes are are within most people's financial reach!
> 
> ...


I just canâ€™t imagine a fellow with a vintage wooden boat, 15-35K in high end audio (not a stretch by any means), a cellar of wine, vintage gun collection, Sage fly rod, better yet hand crafted split bamboo rod, kids in private school, garage full of expensive vintage cars, a private library and mini art museum, and a lake or beach house wearing a timex watch if not as some kind of joke. Or maybe I can see the watch, but they are not looking to score a 35 dollar blazer from Lauren RL, a blazer I might add than if worn twice weekly will last several years, I know. There is value to be had in a Southwick at full price just as there is value to be had in a Rolex. The resale on a Rolex, especially vintage is more than retail at time of sale in most cases.
Same with vintage autos. 
A trad wardrobe is available to most.
A top qulaity trad wardrobe with variety is not within everyones reach. I can't immagine that as my financial situation improves that I will not seek the finer trad offerings.

Allen


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> I said on another thread that I don't buy many clothes any more. i really shouldn't be writing into this place at this point. But I do believe the point is to avoid fashion and spend money for value. sometimes this means spending a fair bit of money with the expectation that it will last. Of course we all have some hobbies, swiss watches may be a hobby for some (not for me). I do have a large collection of hand painted lead toy soldiers from the last century. And I do have a hobby of collecting antique American furniture, but the latter is often a good value compared to what you pay in a furniture store today. And I do shop for paintings that i like. No value there, but will you deny me all of life's pleasures?


Youâ€™re damn right I would, all of them. (hoping he knows I'm just kidding, because I do believe him to be older but still capable of kicking my a--)

Tom, I would love to inherit your wardrobe. Iâ€™m sure the best of the best is to be found there. And I appreciate you jawing back and forth with me and walking me through this. Iâ€™m just saying that I think ribbon watch straps and timex watches are fine for some. J crew belts with whale motifs at $9 are fine as well. Buying an Orvis sack from STP will do for now, but I canâ€™t image as my disposable income increases, that I wonâ€™t just get my regimental bows from Ben Silver like I want to, instead of going to the clearance rack at Lands End. I donâ€™t think Iâ€™ll ever wear my bows enough to ever need another. But I just like them. And like many things in life, I want more. One may begin trad because of the cheap entry, but theyâ€™ll stay because of the style.
I could go Italian, but donâ€™t think I will. I like it here.
I like other things as well. I like collecting things. All sorts of things. Cheap watches are not one of them. That said I do have a timex that is 20 years old. I have replaced the battery once. I found it in my drawer recently and believe it or not the date and time were correct.

Still hoping he's not out to kick my a--,
Allen


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

Well, back to Allen's original question.

I think that everybody posting on this thread sees and understands both sides. The yankee thrift side, the "buy quality, buy once" side, the aspect of taking pleasure in a well-made something rather than a closetful of crap. Virtually all the brands we talk about here all the time, except for when we're making recommendations to a person who wants to start out a trad wardrobe on a budget, all the brands are fairly well made and provide years and years of satisfactory service. I know my clothes and shoes have. And I take pleasure in this.

But back to Allen's question--yes, yes, I think _I_ have been able to afford more "nicer" things than I previously was able to, as I've gotten older. I'm also more confident of some things, some things I want but perhaps don't really need. For example, a nice tweed jacket. I work in a business/slob/casual office. Many people wear jeans, many wear golf shirts, many wear track shoes. Or low-end stuff. Do I _need_ a nice tweed from Press? No. Do I need any more ties? No, I hardly ever wear them. But I can afford to buy _some_ of what I want and when I do I don't tend to compromise.

But per Allen's scenario in which he describes a wealthy boat owner, someone with all the toys, I don't typically think of that person as the Trad type. "Old fashioned, Ivy League" clothing is probably the last thing on his mind.

And I doubt that he'd be wearing a Timex or any low-end watch. What's the motivation? We're talking about a completely different psychological point of view here, aren't we, than the typical thrifty, wear-it-til-its-frayed type of trad I think.

He, better sign off for now. An interesting thread, but let's not get all bent out of shape or take any of this stuff personally, right? I mean, we're all friends who would probably enjoy a good visit over a cup of coffee before we drop by Eljo's or Press I think...

Markus


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tom22_
> 
> Any quartz watch is a better value than an expensive swiss model.


I agree with the other points you made; this one, however, is just nonsense! The only advantage a quartz watch, any quartz watch, has over a fine mechanical timepiece is its accuracy. A well-made, properly serviced mechanical watch will last lifetime after lifetime. For example, my son has my grandfather's watch from the 1920s, which is still running, still keeping excellent time.

Conversely, most of the quartz watches from even the 1970s, if they are still electronically intact, require mercury cell batteries that are no longer able to be sold in the US. No matter how carefully the watch is treated or how well it is serviced, coils deteriorate, circuits fail and the watch is, within a relatively short period of time, a worthless piece of junk.

Train your eye! Then train your brain to trust your eye.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I love my Tiffany quartz (horribile dictu) watch. And my Alden shoe collection. And my Southwick suits. And my Pantherella socks. And my not-so-cheap repp ties. And my stainless steel buckle. And my alligator belt strap, Brooks boxers, and Draper slippers.

Luxe fabrics, high quality construction. They'll last for generations. 

I see nothing wrong with pairing a NATO G10 strap with a nice watch (didn't James Bond do it with a Rolex? Sure he did!).

As for Timex: I've promoted the merits of the Marlin model, but that's about it. And a classic (original) circa-50s Marlin is best. The Tiffany Mark is a handsome watch, as is the classic 34mm Rolex stainless steel Oyster Perpetual. White dial w/ black roman numerals please.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> As for Timex: I've promoted the merits of the Marlin model, but that's about it. And a classic (original) circa-50s Marlin is best.


Ah, yes...


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rip_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is why I think the BEST value is an older Timex or similar Seiko, etc from the pre-1970s that is an automatic. Attainable for under $100, reasonably accurate, requires no batteries.

To the main point

Sometimes you have to make an investment for long-lasting quality, sometimes you dont.

Case in point, if one has not inherited a lot of trad clothing because of lack of trad ancestors or, in my case, because the ancestor that possesses the most clothing is fortunately still alive, one can easily purchase the most expensive part of Trad, the suits, second-hand.

All you need to do is find an affluent town with a thrift store. The thrift store will accept nothing that is worse than gently worn, it usually seems. A quick dry-cleaning, and the suit is clean and basically "new".

Among the 3 button sack suits I have purchased from the WH Junior League

Brooks "346" Navy chalkstripe
Brooks "346" grey-white windowpane
Rosenberg grey flannel
Ed Richilsons (of Manhasset NY) 3 piece grey nailhead
R.W. Camp (Middletown, CT) Grey red-white-blue pinstripe

Assuming the cost of the same new from J. Press and noting the near-perfect condition (possibly unworn) condition of these, I imagine that saved me a good $1800-2500. All I did was dry-clean and alter. Total cost for all 5 with alterations is under $150, and only the members of this forum would ever know it (because of this post) if they saw me during oral arguments or mock trial competition.

Granted, I have bought two suits new from Press and a bevy of sport jackets from the same.

But if you are starting out, you can find most of the big ticket items in affluent areas for under $50 at places like Junior League. You can also get a plethora of trad ties, usually old Brooks stock in the preferred 2.75-3.25" widths.

That means that you have the rest of your disposable income left over to purchase shirts, shoes, sunglasses, watches, restored 240Ds and Ben Silver bowties.

Thrift in neighborhoods with abundances of rich people and you can dress in timeless, well made clothing on a retail part-timer's (or law student's) salary.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Cooly, as you save, it's okay to dream...(I do)...

...





My-oh-my. What a car. Will there every be another 240d?

Can't you hear that diesel crankin' like a tank?


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

Camp's of Middletown. They went out of business in the 80s. i remember looking in their windows. The family still lives in the area. I'm lost at this point. I think that timex is great. But I actually want a watch that tells good time. I have some mechanical clocks with fabulous chimes. the watch stuff I'm sort of at a loss about and write it off to a hobbyist's eccentricity. But the best coat i own is my father's cashmere from the 60s and the suits I value are the oldest ones I own. DON'T LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE. save money, buy old cars, wear old clothes. save money to pass on when you die. buy real estate when it is cheap (ie wait five years). Be thrifty.


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## Clotheswatcher (Dec 2, 2005)

I like the question that Allen poses because it is very applicable to my situation.

Allow me to explain:

I am 18 years old and go to college at UC San Diego, where most of my classmates wear hideous clothes, everything from stipey shirts to polos with collars popped to acid washed jeans and everything in between. My wardrobe basically consists of what I consider "Teenager Trad" (trademark pending), which is basically t shirts without any logos or artwork (purchased in many different colors from American Apparel), Levi 501s, and Addidas Superstar sneakers. Basically a timeless teenage look. 

Now, every since I joined this forum, I have been exposed to the intoxicating world of Trad and all it's pleasures. Although I really enjoy my current "Teenager Trad" wardrobe, especially because it is a manifestation of my personal style, I nevertheless have a craving for OCBD's, shetland sweaters, repp ties, Aldens, and the rest of the lot. The simple fact is that in the back of my mind, I have always been attracted to this world of classic gentlemen's dress, but I just have never articulated these unconsciouse thoughts into a wardrobe ideology that has come to be known as Trad.

Which brings me back to Allen's question. I do not have much disposable income to spend on the best of the best, and to be truly honest I think it would be a little crazy for someone my age, without any income other than what comes from my parents, to plurge hundreds of dollars on top drawer Trad paraphernalia. However, I am still interested in starting to build a Trad wardrobe. I have purchases Ray Ban Wayfeerers, a few nice logoless RL Polo shirts at heavy discount, Topsiders for $25 at Big 5, and a really nice pair of Brooks seersucker shorts last year at the 40% off summer sale (I feel I can get away with shorts because I am pretty young and I live in warm southern CA). But I want more than just a measly Trad foundation (if my collection can be called that).

I have saved $100 of my Christmas money and am planning on spending it this summer at the Brooks 40% off sale on 2 OCBD's and another pair of seersucker shorts. Yet, the recent rumblings on the forum about Lands End Oxford shirts make me question whether this would be the wisest choice. After all, I am only 18, don't wear OCBD often if ever (but I want to). Why should I waste money on two very good shirts (I know Mercer is probably better but I think the cut is probably WAY to be for me) when I could get many more shirts that are ok in quality? We'll, I really can't. I know my parents wouldn't mind buying me one or two articles of nice, top drawer Trad clothing (I almost got them to buy me a Barbour jacket, but then realized I didn't need it), but they would never purchase the closet full of Trad items that I would like. And of course I don't blame them, I wouldn't buy them for my kids either. But this leaves me in the crucible of Allen's question: What am I to do to aquire a Trad wardrobe when I have very little disposable income?

Start off with some LE OCBDs, J Crew sweaters, JC Penny chinos, etc, and when I make it one my own in 15-20 years go on a buying spree for top quality Trad clothing (if it is still offered)? I really don't know. I think I am leaning towards accumulating a few pieces here and there of top quality or damn near top quality Trad gear over the years along with some mid level/quality stuff until I get create real purchasing power. Wow. That was like therapy!


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

actually i think that is OK. Another long time source for thrift is the LL Bean catalog. Don't know if it makes it out to the west coast but everyone in New England gets a copy every season. Most of the stuff is imported but it has always been a resepected label among thrifty New Englanders. Including those who are sent by their parents to private schools. Teenagers in particular, who will outgrow their clothes in a short time, should acquire the (apparently in short supply) value of thrift.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Cooly, as you save, it's okay to dream...(I do)...
> 
> ...


Beautiful. I hope you pick one up. But I already have my dream, my venerable Cadillac, coveted by grandfathers, urban subcultures, and small children alike

Today I received the news it may need a new motor because the bearing may be shot. Having already replaced nearly everything else, I see no reason not to fix this. There's nothing else I could get in as good, rust-free shape for the money it will cost to fix the motor that will ever replace the memories it gives me of my grandfather, or the A-1 treatment I receive at any venue with a parking attendant even if it is old.

When it is running, given what I already have, I have everything I want except a law degree, a job with which I am happy, and a woman with whom to share it all...

so I dream of those things, and save for 20 year old car repairs, Mercer shirts, Alden shoes, and the necessary jewelry when that day comes...

That was sappy. I'm so sorry.

The point by Harris is well taken...thrift, but always dream.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Sweet ride, Cooly. I trust it has the requisite suspension for which hoopties are known.

Peace. And I'm out.

Harris


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Harris_
> 
> Sweet ride, Cooly. I trust it has the requisite suspension for which hoopties are known.
> 
> ...


HAHAHA, God no. Though if I sold it around here, I'm sure it would soon be. They'd spray paint the steering wheel gold and probably rip off my wire wheels and put rotating disco rims on it.

No, mine was my grandfather's and is still standard to the specs of its original intended market whether that be the older folks who generally bought them, or these folks in the brochure


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

Here's a funny quote from the 1993 J. Peterman catalogue.

"my Irish Grandmother divided her relatives into three sorts; Lace Curtain Irish" (self important, pretentious), "shanty Irish" (raw, untutored) and "True Irish" (possibly us?). Her definitions weren't based on money but something much deeper: character.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sort of funny that J. Peterman would use ad copy like that to sell pheasant hunting clothes to people who don't know the difference between a shotgun and an assault rifle!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the J. Press Catalogs I brought home from Japan depicted Snap-on tools as an icon of American Trad. I think they may have been on to something, but only my mechanic knows for sure.

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All I know, is that I'd rather have a used Selectric typewriter, than a brand new Brother. A pre-owned Bentley than a brand new Yugo. A pair of silver cuff links from the 1930's than a modern pair of silver- plated clip-ons. You get the idea.

This isn't a discussion about second-hand chic, but you have to consider extreme cases when seeking to understand this topic.

Timex watches are fine for a while, but rarely do they ever achieve heirloom status.

.....................
: David G. Pihl :
.....................


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Allen_
> 
> Would someone who is more eloquent with words than I am please rephrase this question so that it makes sense.
> 
> ...


Allen, 
Please refresh me. What "good stuff" was I referring to? (not all "my stuff" is "good stuff"! believe me!)
Joe


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Elegant motor-car, Coolidge. Quite a boat, too! It looks like the interior would be very comfortable.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Allen, your question reminds me of a quote from E.M.Forrester about confusing 'what is impressive with what is important'. 

I'm not convinced having money can make a Trad more Trad or not. By this I mean I don't think Trad comes in degrees e.g. poor Trad = Timex and JC Penny khakis, rich Trad = Rolex and Bills. There may be an economic distinction between the two but not a Trad distinction. 

As a child I recall asking my dad why he drove a Buick which was several years old unlike my friend whose father had the new Mercedes. My dad replied that everyone has choices to make, and my dad's choice was a several year old American car and travel as in "Let's go to NYC/Mexico/New Orleans for the weekend" (the point being they did not travel anywhere).

I'm fortunate in that I don't need to buy very much. Yes I do buy Bills and A&E and a few items from Press/Brooks every year. But I also have a lot of hand-me-downs including the sterling engine-turned buckle and Timex. Would I buy an engine-turned buckle today - probably not - I'd put it towards a plane ticket to Italy or another piece of porcelain for the collection.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Allen_
> 
> Would someone who is more eloquent with words than I am please rephrase this question so that it makes sense.
> 
> ...


Allen, for what it's worth, here's my advice: invest some of that $ in a good rod and reel and waders from Orvis, and some well-tied flies from a spot that's not far from you (or at least it used to be near you): Holston Angler. On my way through that area (I-81), I casted the Holston, as well as a few streams near Damascus. If memory serves, more than a few G.O.B.'s I know from that area grew up casting the Holston, which is trout heaven. I went to college with a few of them. I still remember the name of the guy who owned Holston Anglers--Tim Landis. Another guy named David assisted.

Off topic, I realize. But the question was about what to do with "disposable" income. If you're not going to invest, then have fun with it. In that part of the world, fun comes in the form of fly casting.

Cheers,
Harris


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

*Clotheswatcher*, you seem to be on the right track. Don't worry about the posh OCBDs, cordovan Aldens, Southwick suits, etc. You can assemble a good 'trad' wardrobe, appropriate for you current student-ness, without breaking the bank. Our own *Familyman* for example has put together a great 'trad' wardrobe without spending like some of our other members. In fact, his Weejuns, which are smashing, are in fact vintage from a thrift shop! Just keep reading more threads and you'll pick out the stuff you can afford. The most expensive thing you should buy, assuming you're not growning too much now )), is a sack blazer. Everything else can be had for good prices. LE does shirts, even Weejuns are still a good cheap penny loafer (even if the leathers are not the nice leathers of the 1980s and earlier). Etc, etc.

Some legwork and research is needed, but you should find reasonably priced stuff. Don't overlook suppliers to prep schools and/or uniform suppliers, etc. They will have cheap OCBD shirts (usually only white or blue) and cheap flat-front chinos which will get you through your student years fine (and you won't panic if you spill beer on them). Ties you can easily find in thrift shops and all they will need is a dry-cleaning. Get your parents to pay for a blazer for a Christmas gift and you're ready to go.

When you graduate and are working and can save money, then you can start to get into the posher 'trad' gear that members here discuss.


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

A long time ago, my grandmother gave me some excellent advice: Value isn't always cheap. In that short sentance is a wealth of wisdom about how to conduct one's life. 

Regarding the topic at hand, it does take a certain level of income to afford the value represented by prototypical trad items. The real question is when one has the money to afford said items, does one purchase something timeless and created to last or does one purchase the trendiest and flashiest current alternative ? That choice alone says much about the person in question. I do not mean to imply elitism, just that for some value is an aspirational choice, just as ostentation is viewed in some circles as a mark of success. At the other extreme, how many of us are aquainted with people who are extemely wealthy, but conduct themselves as if their next month's income is all they had left ? Visibly, people in this category may purchase downmarket items and not really care how others judge them. In many ways these people are no less trad than those that have all of the visible trappings that we take for granted. It would probably surprise many people to realise just how many members of the last category are represented in the Trad population.

Best,

Ross


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

I completely agree with Coolidge's post about trad thrifting. One really needs to find a junior league thrift shop and make a run through once a week, and before considering any major purchase, it will save you much in the long run. I know many older gentlemen who do this. Around Philadelphia, people will mistake you for one of the "first 300" if they constantly see you rummaging through thrift shops and they know you have money. 

The other thing that we should all remember is that for most of us, the ultimate trad outfit costs nothing in comparison to what they talk about on the other AAAC fora. To the Lobb and Brioni set, $500 cordo Aldens seem cheap, and few would consider a $90 shirt, no matter how well made, luxe. Someone in a post mentioned that as a trad they can feel dowdy, and this is true, when surrounded by tall, athletic members of the Horse Guards or Argentine polo players wearing cashmere and T&A shirts, or even CEOs fully kitted out, one will feel dowdy in comparison. The thing is that people don't find themselves in these sorts of situations very often. While the trad wardrobe may be more expensive than what most people wear, if one looks at the old suburbs of big cities, where trads and non-trads live side by side, this distinction becomes clear. In earlier generations, as well as now, trads used conservative well made, but not extravagant goods as means for people with modest inheritances and "professional" jobs (doctors, lawyers, bankers) to live well but free up money time (in not having to work so hard) for more important expenses and activites. One wanted to have well made things and make a good show, but one needn't the best (in clothes that is, education, sailboats, book, wine and art collections, quite another story). Even partners in the biggest firms in Philadelphia and orthopedic seurgons in private practice have trouble doing all the things they are "expected" to do for thier familes. Again speaking from what I know about Philadelphia, it takes a lot of money to say, have an acre and a half in Bryn Mawr, send your kids to the Haverford School and Penn then take them on vacation, pay for summer camps, golf lessons, country club memberships. One can do all of this, but then one does not have a lot of money left over for neopolitan tailoring and bespoke shoes. And a trad would never forsake the welfare of his childeren for bespoke shoes. And when one's neighbors are driving Bentlys and Maserattis (no joke, last weekend my girlfriend and I went shopping in Ardmore and we saw a row of cars that went Bently, Maseratti, Bently, Maseratti, one of those huge Mercedes SUVs, Bently) $500 aldens and $1000 southwick suits become a good value, and I suspect that timex like Levis, is something that used to be much better than it is now. The one I am currently wearing doesn't even feel like it is made of metal. I suppose the point of this post is that the vale of trad clothing items is relative to one's peer group. I don't want to sound in any way condescending, nor give anyone the impression that I am a wealthy Main Liner (I living in gentele poverty in the city) but just point out that the thriftiness of Aldens is much more apparent on the feet of a DuPont than on me.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

Having a rambunctious 4-year-old son, I have embraced this strategy:

1 pair of Bill's
Brooks, Press, and Mercer shirts: 1 in each classic color
AE Graysons and Park Avenues
Press and Brooks jackets and suits

This is my work/dinner party/afternoon at a museum wardrobe.

Around the house, in the back yard, at the playground, in the sandbox, it's the Penney and Bean chinos, Lands' End OCBDs, and Weejuns.

This approach has saved me much heartache and expense. I think it makes sense to have the key items in both "luxe" and cheaper options.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> This approach has saved me much heartache and expense. I think it makes sense to have the key items in both "luxe" and cheaper options.


And a good reminder that 'trad' clothing is not 'label aware'.


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

I think trad has always had this continium. Look at Brooks now or the Brooks of old There are different levels of suits, always have been. The cheaper appeal to the younger, less well off and those likely to grow out of them. The top of the line to the established. Ask a salesman though and I bet they'd tell you they put some young men in top suits and the other way round. With trad though Brooks has always been at or near the top, there have always been lower priced and lower quality options. Many of those were probably small shops but LL Bean and Lands End have been around selling trad staples for quite a while. Trad is a continium of ages and incomes and values. There are and have always been places for everybody. I think it would be considered natural for one to shift along that line as one changes through life. Go with the Flow Allen, and read my signature, it's something in life that is important to me.

_____________________________________________________________________________
I am no enemy of elegance, but I say no man has a right to think of elegance till he has secured substance, nor then, to seek more of it than he can afford. 

John Adams


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Clotheswatcher_
> 
> I like the question that Allen poses because it is very applicable to my situation.
> 
> ...


CW, you're is such a wonderful position. Nobody expects much out of you sartorially so anything you do, anything at all, is a huge positive. You're 18 and you body will most likely change shape by the time you're 30 even if you stay the same weight. Your sleeve lenght will probably stay the same but your neck size will change and coat and pant size may as well. Not at all a problem, just something to think about when you purchase things. No need to buy lifetime clothes. No need to buy Mercer, buy Lands End instead for shirts. Get some JC penny chinos or Lands End or LL Bean or watch STP for Bills (got mine for $33, SCORE!) Know your coat size and watch ebay for jackets and suits. I firmly believe that there is no need for a young man to buy new. So many men buy nice clothes right out of college and then expand outward and outgrow them soon. Most 18 year olds are built such that they can take advantage of this. Let us know your size and I'll find you a few things on ebay to show you. Hell, if you're a 38R I'll send you a BB blazer, it's darted but it's a nice coat. I wear oxxford, hickey freeman, southwick and BB and I haven't paid over $30 for any coat yet. Shoes, thrift watch ebay and realize that you can wait for expensive shoes. Weejuns are fairly cheap at retail, get topy applied to extend their lives. AE tassels go stupid cheap on ebay, a little formal for college maybe but I paid $12 for mine in excellent condition. Ties are a no brainer to thift, you can probably find 10,000 ties for $1 each in the SD area today and at least a few of them are going to be good nice condintion trad reps, but you probably won't need to wear them much so $10 in ties should get you through as much scool as you care to attend. 
If you really want to go trad get two pairs of chinos, 3 or 4 LL Bean polos (I think bean is the best value) and three OCBD's from Lands End, one white, one blue and one pink, get their trim fit if that's how you are built, it makes a difference. Get a pair of boat shoes and no socks and you're there. That's all you need. Add here and there as time and money permits. Try a sack coat and a darted coat from ebay and see which you like better. Try a single bow tie and see if you can do it. Pick up some weejuns from an outlet or e-bay and see if penny loafers are your thing, some people actually like laces better. 
Trad clothes are fun, they are timeless and ageless and they don't have to be expensive.

_____________________________________________________________________________
I am no enemy of elegance, but I say no man has a right to think of elegance till he has secured substance, nor then, to seek more of it than he can afford.

John Adams


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Iâ€™ll try to answer as many of these posts as I can.
First, with all the bickering regarding what constitutes a trad watch, I felt that they were all trad more or less and that everyone was right. Now there are a few people that just do not care about watches and will wear anything or nothing. But more generally I would say that a trad watch is relative.

One would be hard pressed to look at a pair of Bills flat front khakis and be able to distinguish from a pair of JC Penny flat fronts. Hold a photo up of two flat front cuffed khakis and both are equal. The only difference being quality, not always easy to visualize. No debate.

But when the topic moves to something that is easier to differentiate visually, e.g. watches, there is more debate. 

My contention is that like so many things in life, the best trad whatever is simply relative as long as it meets certain parameters.

We can hardly talk about practical longevity of item. Sure theyâ€™re going to last a long time, but to most on this board that is not a concern, really. Most will never wear out what they already own.

Markus, good advice to go to be last night. I want to point out that the guy with the boat and other items metioned, the wealthy guy who you wouldnâ€™t think was interested in old fashioned clothes, that was another member on the forum. He has all those fine quality items, and I canâ€™t imagine his clothes are not equally as fine. I agree with you on finding pleasure in not having crappy things.
My advice to someone starting trad on a budget. Donâ€™t buy a new watch with ribbon bands to be trad. Keep the watch you have, save your money for something really nice and trad. Donâ€™t buy 5 or 6 pair of cheap trad shoes, save for the Aldens. Rather than 5 or 6 Orvis sacks, save for the really nice one. 

Harris,
I think you would serve as a good case in point. I just canâ€™t see you (fictitious character created in my mind) wearing a Timex with ribbon band at this point in your career. Maybe as a teen or even into your college years. I think you will evolve out of your G10 at some point. Would you mind sharing the make/model of your current dress watch?

Kent,
That is a fine looking Timex. It looks vintage and collectable. In a different category I dare say than a current quartz from the drug store.

Coolidge, 
You have made an impression on me with your intellect. I am sure you have a successful and lucrative career ahead of you. I will be interested to see if you continue to thrift in 10-15-20 years. 
SEPTA, Great post and I echo my sentiments regarding Coolidge. You are soon to finish residency program if I remember correctly. Wonâ€™t find any Docs at the thrift stores around here. You are right though Trad is relatively cheap. Again there is the word relative.
I shouldnâ€™t feel guilty with comments like who spends 100 dollars on boat shoes. Or feel like I need a pair of 80 dollar Weejuns when Iâ€™d prefer a new pair of cordo loafers that I may or may not decide to polish. I will wear my relatively inexpensive rolex with my croc band, because where I live this is trad, relatively speaking. 


Now, I have a selection of fine fly rods, even have some spare waders, Simms not Ovris and I think I will take that drive down to the South Holston. Anyone interested?

Harris I do believe you live around here.
Joe, if Iâ€™m not mistaken you were referencing Alden loafers about â€œonly the ood stuff.â€

Allen


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by septa_
> 
> I completely agree with Coolidge's post about trad thrifting. One really needs to find a junior league thrift shop and make a run through once a week, and before considering any major purchase, it will save you much in the long run. I know many older gentlemen who do this. Around Philadelphia, people will mistake you for one of the "first 300" if they constantly see you rummaging through thrift shops and they know you have money.
> 
> The other thing that we should all remember is that for most of us, the ultimate trad outfit costs nothing in comparison to what they talk about on the other AAAC fora. To the Lobb and Brioni set, $500 cordo Aldens seem cheap, and few would consider a $90 shirt, no matter how well made, luxe. Someone in a post mentioned that as a trad they can feel dowdy, and this is true, when surrounded by tall, athletic members of the Horse Guards or Argentine polo players wearing cashmere and T&A shirts, or even CEOs fully kitted out, one will feel dowdy in comparison. The thing is that people don't find themselves in these sorts of situations very often. While the trad wardrobe may be more expensive than what most people wear, if one looks at the old suburbs of big cities, where trads and non-trads live side by side, this distinction becomes clear. In earlier generations, as well as now, trads used conservative well made, but not extravagant goods as means for people with modest inheritances and "professional" jobs (doctors, lawyers, bankers) to live well but free up money time (in not having to work so hard) for more important expenses and activites. One wanted to have well made things and make a good show, but one needn't the best (in clothes that is, education, sailboats, book, wine and art collections, quite another story). Even partners in the biggest firms in Philadelphia and orthopedic seurgons in private practice have trouble doing all the things they are "expected" to do for thier familes. Again speaking from what I know about Philadelphia, it takes a lot of money to say, have an acre and a half in Bryn Mawr, send your kids to the Haverford School and Penn then take them on vacation, pay for summer camps, golf lessons, country club memberships. One can do all of this, but then one does not have a lot of money left over for neopolitan tailoring and bespoke shoes. And a trad would never forsake the welfare of his childeren for bespoke shoes. And when one's neighbors are driving Bentlys and Maserattis (no joke, last weekend my girlfriend and I went shopping in Ardmore and we saw a row of cars that went Bently, Maseratti, Bently, Maseratti, one of those huge Mercedes SUVs, Bently) $500 aldens and $1000 southwick suits become a good value, and I suspect that timex like Levis, is something that used to be much better than it is now. The one I am currently wearing doesn't even feel like it is made of metal. I suppose the point of this post is that the vale of trad clothing items is relative to one's peer group. I don't want to sound in any way condescending, nor give anyone the impression that I am a wealthy Main Liner (I living in gentele poverty in the city) but just point out that the thriftiness of Aldens is much more apparent on the feet of a DuPont than on me.


Superb post SEPTA!

I think this sensible approach to clothes is what drives trad. Wearing clothes should not be a pissing match.

It also appears that much what defines Philadelphia trad is carried forward into the Midwest. Doesn't surprise me, if you look at the settlement patterns of the country. See:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0..._1/104-5961686-4036756?_encoding=UTF8&s=books

No harm in being thrifty!

Cheers,

JRR


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## HoustonTEX (Mar 21, 2005)

My Dad did not spend money on clothes, cars or houses (my Mom did for the house). He spent it on his family. I inherited his value on cars and the house. I have a 9 year old Toyota 4-runner (only 80,000 miles) and my wife has a 7 year old Discovery (money pit). The 4 runner will last for years and the Discovery until the maintenance finally pushes me over the top. I live in a 2,000 sqft house that was built in the 40's. No plans to leave it even with the second kid on the way.

I did not inherit his value on clothes. I am drawn to higher end and I don't know why. I have to convince myself that 4 pairs of Bills is enough for now. After buying my first AE shoes I was already planning the next pair to buy. The only good thing is for the real high dollar I do look for value. My wife got my Omega from a friend that is a buyer for cost. I have no desire to tell anyone how much I spend on clothes and when asked I donâ€™t tell. I really donâ€™t think it is to be showy but just a since that the high price brings value. There is no doubt that as disposable family income goes up I will buy nicer things ( more expensive things). 

I know that I am not that trad but compared to the $100,000 a year millionaires that I live amongst with their 4,000 sqft houses, leased SUV and luxury car, and latest expensive designer jeans I feel a tad trad.

Son of a true Trad,
Michael

PS - Allen, i love reading your posts


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Allen-
Thanks for the great thread. When I see pics of your family and wardrobe, it definetly serves as a bit of a morale boost. Reminds me what is in store. 

JRR-Albion's Seed is great. I love that book.


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## Clotheswatcher (Dec 2, 2005)

familyman, many thanks for offering the blazer but I really don't need one.

And thanks everyone for the great advice. Reading this thread and others like reminds me why I keep coming back to Ask Andy.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Allen, I do not live in that area. I live in northern New Jersey. Just a short commute to/from NYC. stephenson among others may have experienced the negatives of letting other forum members know where he lived, and I'd prefer not to provide specifics.

I know that area--Southwest VA and East TN--very well, though. Great part of the world. 

Regarding my watch: I doubt I'll ever outgrow the NATO G10's...and yes, I still wear my old Leatherman Ltd. straps from time to time. Despite the wisdom of old fogeys who say ribbon straps look silly or frivolous, I continue to like the look of a plain, simple ribbon strap with a nice,plain watch. 

You wear a Cellini, right?


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Allen_
> 
> Iâ€™ll try to answer as many of these posts as I can.
> First, with all the bickering regarding what constitutes a trad watch, I felt that they were all trad more or less and that everyone was right. Now there are a few people that just do not care about watches and will wear anything or nothing. But more generally I would say that a trad watch is relative.
> ...


Allen, 
Thanks! No bickering here! (I have been known to but not with you.........yet!! ha ha)
I just forgot. didnt want to be snobby......which i have no right to be by the way! alden yes.......i like them the best......i think they are "good stuff" there are better shoes to be sure but they are the best for me...........i love the look the durability etc.......just plain love em.............did i have them in 1980 as a college grad??????? hell NO! i had weejun tassels (the original) wore em with suits till i learned better and got myself a pair of black Footjoy tassels (same look as the Alden but at the Pro shop with a coupon from a buddy about 100 buck i would guess) damn nice shoes back then............

as far as all the good stuff.........i can say I have never owned anything from Ben Silver (and I know it is GOOD stuff) or Cable Car (also great stuff i hear) no Pantheralla fine hosiery here (I will admit I am curious no doubt!!) just regular Gold Toes (wool blend of course.......no cotton I am firm about that one.).......Hanes boxers...........no Press or Brooks....... Brooks suits, ties, Alden unlined LH, yes...........Hell I am almost 50 now and say,,,,,,,,,damnnit,,,,i worked hard as all hell for 25 years living out of a suitcase, and if i want aldens........i'll get em!

i bet you feel the same..........you bust your rear end to get through medical school..........if you want a nice a wardrobe, and your wife won't murder you in your sleep......(kidding of course!!) then you deserve it!!!!!!!! hope you take the wife thing in stride..........damn........money issues..........2 marriages.......always a problem.........very challenging to agree on that stuff. i think..........

all the best, joe


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

Joe--

Judging from the prose style of this post, you are morphing into erstwhile trad poster Jimmy, he of the Duke sweatshirt and flip flops!

Nice little blast of nostalgia there.


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Allen_
> 
> Iâ€™ll try to answer as many of these posts as I can.
> First, with all the bickering regarding what constitutes a trad watch, I felt that they were all trad more or less and that everyone was right. Now there are a few people that just do not care about watches and will wear anything or nothing. But more generally I would say that a trad watch is relative.
> ...


Allen, 
Thanks! No bickering here! (I have been known to but not with you.........yet!! ha ha)
I just forgot. didnt want to be snobby......which i have no right to be by the way! alden yes.......i like them the best......i think they are "good stuff" there are better shoes to be sure but they are the best for me...........i love the look the durability etc.......just plain love em.............did i have them in 1980 as a college grad??????? hell NO! i had weejun tassels (the original) wore em with suits till i learned better and got myself a pair of black Footjoy tassels (same look as the Alden but at the Pro shop with a coupon from a buddy about 100 buck i would guess) damn nice shoes back then............

as far as all the good stuff.........i can say I have never owned anything from Ben Silver (and I know it is GOOD stuff) or Cable Car (also great stuff i hear) no Pantheralla fine hosiery here (I will admit I am curious no doubt!!) just regular Gold Toes (wool blend of course.......no cotton I am firm about that one.).......Hanes boxers...........no Press or Brooks....... Brooks suits, ties, Alden unlined LH, yes...........Hell I am almost 50 now and say,,,,,,,,,damnnit,,,,i worked hard as all hell for 25 years living out of a suitcase, and if i want aldens........i'll get em!

i bet you feel the same..........you bust your rear end to get through medical school..........if you want a nice a wardrobe, and your wife won't murder you in your sleep......(kidding of course!!) then you deserve it!!!!!!!! hope you take the wife thing as purely a joke!!!!..damn........money issues.........many times a problem in relationships.........very challenging to agree on that stuff. i think..........

all the best, joe


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## 16198 (Feb 25, 2005)

I think Tom 22 nailed the return on investment and value based mindset of trad pretty well, right at the beginning. I am going to watch for his posts from now on. Bean, Lands End, Timex, are chosen for basics based on value and thrift.

And if you are buying multiples of something or the fancy version of something because it's the fancy version, then you have become an enthusiast. That's OK I suppose, but let's just call it what it is.

If you need EVERYTHING to be the fancy version and you must have lots of stuff then it seems to me you have a need to prove something. [:0]

I am put off by the person who thinks you need to wear a watch more expensive than a Timex, or everyday clothes from a higher end maker than Bean or Lands End.


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## Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

Allen, thanks for the great thread, and for reminding me of a favorite Fat Albert character from my childhood. ("Heyba, manba. Howba doba youba likeba myba newba regibamental bowbatieba?")

Appreciating the Gentlemanly discourse of this forum,

Randall


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

It varies. You buy AE shoes because they'll last a long time (and because of AE's refurb service, which you will use), but you buy weejuns too, because you've always bought weejuns.

Somebody: "I tell you, he's so well dressed that when he walks down the street people turn around to look at him."
Beau Brummell: "Then he is not well dressed."


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Randall_
> 
> Allen, thanks for the great thread, and for reminding me of a favorite Fat Albert character from my childhood. ("Heyba, manba. Howba doba youba likeba myba newba regibamental bowbatieba?")
> 
> ...


Now that....was Funny.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

Dressing trad can be economical, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we say we do it because it's thrifty. For instance, I've read countless posts about the value of Alden cordo handsewn leisure mocs(so many that I finally caved and ordered a pair). In purely economic terms, I remain unconvinced that these will last as long as ten consecutive pair of Weejuns, bought for $50 at N-Rack, rotated in a wardrobe, and handled with the same care. Ultimately, buying $19 Chinese crappy shoes at Walmart would probably be the most economical. The Alden's though, will provide a pride of ownership and satisfaction that only an old trusty workhorse will give you. They'll likely grow far more comfortable than the Weejuns, and generate more than their share of compliments.

We buy the good stuff because life is short. It feels good to have a few things that are nice. While raising a family, it's next to impossible to watch the continuous and fleeting outlays for school, hockey, housing, automobiles, etc. go by without wishing for a few items that would last; that would still be here at the end of the day, at the end of next year. These trad items serve as just that. Sure, dressing this way is cheaper than GQ'ing your way through life, but if you want economy, buy Target t-shirts, jeans, and flip-flops. Dressing American Trad is not the cheapest way to go, but possibly the best.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Larsd4_
> 
> Dressing trad can be economical, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we say we do it because it's thrifty. For instance, I've read countless posts about the value of Alden cordo handsewn leisure mocs(so many that I finally caved and ordered a pair). In purely economic terms, I remain unconvinced that these will last as long as ten consecutive pair of Weejuns, bought for $50 at N-Rack, rotated in a wardrobe, and handled with the same care. Ultimately, buying $19 Chinese crappy shoes at Walmart would probably be the most economical. The Alden's though, will provide a pride of ownership and satisfaction that only an old trusty workhorse will give you. They'll likely grow far more comfortable than the Weejuns, and generate more than their share of compliments.
> 
> We buy the good stuff because life is short. It feels good to have a few things that are nice. While raising a family, it's next to impossible to watch the continuous and fleeting outlays for school, hockey, housing, automobiles, etc. go by without wishing for a few items that would last; that would still be here at the end of the day, at the end of next year. These trad items serve as just that. Sure, dressing this way is cheaper than GQ'ing your way through life, but if you want economy, buy Target t-shirts, jeans, and flip-flops. Dressing American Trad is not the cheapest way to go, but possibly the best.


Spot on. Good post.


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## 16198 (Feb 25, 2005)

Huh? Raising money for business or a charity, board meetings, social events, sporting events, traditional outdoor sports and activities. To me these are the activities of this lifestyle. You can't buy clothes that really work for this stuff at Target at all. 

The question is: can a timex, weejuns, and lands end duds do it? And, if you have the disposable income or are older shouldn't you aim a little higher? 

Sports Jackets and Suits? I say buy Press, Brooks, or go MTM depending on how often you need to wear it.
Dress shirts, trousers, ties? Some Brooks, Mercer, type and some LE and Bean type, saving the nicer for more refined activities.
Shoes? If you've got lot's of business meetings - a nice pair of Aldens pay off AND they happen to be built to last. Weejuns are great fill-ins for rainy days and causal.
Watch? Keep it simple. It's fine if you feel the need get a nice dress watch, but don't come fundraising to me flashing your fancy watch. I won't be impressed.

As you get older and perhaps your investments grow, then kick it up a little. Or not.

Looking this over I think it's really basic and value based. If there was a cheaper shoe than an Alden that could do it all, and have the same level of sophistication and class, a trad would be wearing it. Same goes for the rest of the clothes.


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Larsd4_
> 
> Dressing trad can be economical, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we say we do it because it's thrifty. For instance, I've read countless posts about the value of Alden cordo handsewn leisure mocs(so many that I finally caved and ordered a pair). In purely economic terms, I remain unconvinced that these will last as long as ten consecutive pair of Weejuns, bought for $50 at N-Rack, rotated in a wardrobe, and handled with the same care. Ultimately, buying $19 Chinese crappy shoes at Walmart would probably be the most economical. The Alden's though, will provide a pride of ownership and satisfaction that only an old trusty workhorse will give you. They'll likely grow far more comfortable than the Weejuns, and generate more than their share of compliments.


I am not so sure about that. In the past, I have purchased more economical items from places such as Jos A Banks. Invariably, ties/shirts/suits/boxers will wear out or show noticable signs of wear after as little as 18mos of normal use. While the intial price may have been 1/2 or 1/3 that of Brooks/Press et al, is it really true value if the less costly items have to be replaced 2-4 times to replicate the lifespan of susposedly more costly items ? I would rather buy once, and be done with it. One less thing to worry about.

Best,

Ross


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

thrifty yes, miserly no.

quality yes, ostentation no.

Somebody: "I tell you, he's so well dressed that when he walks down the street people turn around to look at him."
Beau Brummell: "Then he is not well dressed."


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Larsd4_
> 
> ... I've read countless posts about the value of Alden cordo handsewn leisure mocs(so many that I finally caved and ordered a pair). In purely economic terms, I remain unconvinced that these will last as long as ten consecutive pair of Weejuns, bought for $50 at N-Rack, rotated in a wardrobe, and handled with the same care.


in my experience the aldens last the longest and are the most comfortable. And they can be repaired and maintained to last and last. Weejuns stretch too much to last that long.

Markus


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rl1856_
> While the intial price may have been 1/2 or 1/3 that of Brooks/Press et al, is it really true value if the less costly items have to be replaced 2-4 times to replicate the lifespan of susposedly more costly items ? I would rather buy once, and be done with it. One less thing to worry about.


I agree 100% with this philosophy.

And Clotheswatcher, regarding the stripey shirts and acid-treated jeans worn by your contemporaries - and these fashiony things aren't necessarily cheap - it doesn't matter how long they last, since they'll be out of style in about ten seconds anyway.

*"Buy the best, and you will only cry once." - Chinese proverb*


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Excellent thread. 

Brownshoe has said it well.

Regardless of disposable income the hallmark of many trads is cheap, and comfortable.

Cheap means the best you can afford, but always keeping in mind that the number of wearings per dollar = cost.

Mercers are not inexpensive, however, they will last much longer than stuff from most factory outlet stores.

An Alden 663 is 4 times the cost of Weejuns from the Bass outlet. But you will probably have the 663s ,and get great pleasure from them, for a decade or more.

When you look at some of the posts on the Fashion Forum, it would seems that the trad definition of excellence differs, in that understated elegance is usually the objective of most trads.

Carpe Diem


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

what a great series of posts.(enjoyed that mercedes shot harris. 240 D ??)
Adding to it would be superflous. but...
-I have seen the distinction between trad and disposable income. and I think we are all misers about some monetary spending and devil may care about other purchases-it has occured to me that if I never bought another bow tie(or to a lesser degree -long) I would still be in good shape-dreaming of a Mercedes 240-but if it doesnt happen and the money gets sunk into daughters "crew" athletic needs-the kids are the real investment.

value + longevity = trad, kind of fuzzy math!(sometimes we are buying a name--see trad websites sticky #1 --exhibit a for coolidge- but basically holds true.

when the Brooks ocbd shirts arent even presentable for mowing the lawn I'll have Dave Mercer on the phone, yet seeing the dandy colorful side of trad pictured and posted is great fun-and lets face it-pretty cheap entertainment .

then there is of course a reverse snob appeal (it's there(we all know it!) and there is a perverse humor in it)ie better a rusty mercedes than a $$$new or maybe new $(fill in blank) ??better no money than new money??(or at least appearing that way)

probably so
a little affectation perhaps but appealing none the less.what is funny is if one has to justify it. never complain never explain

frugal but dreaming is ok . What constitutes disposable income is of course relative but I wouldn't buy anything I didnt plan to wear the hell out of(but maintain)---it's all but summer and I'm thinking about a 3-2 sack camel hair jacket-but it's ok. this is the trad forum , I'm allowed. Thanks for the nights entertainment gents.-{Morgan -hope your laptop made it home safe and sound.)
Some day I will learn to type.

max


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

To clarify my own philosophy I am not opposed to going new.

I believe not in spending as little as possibly but in identifying what is good and then finding IT for as little as possible.

Hence those old, but barely worn Brooks suits: they are great quality, but I bought them for $20 each. That's not miserly, in my opinion that's common sense.

It is just that, for suits and sportcoats, I always check thrift first, because these are the particular articles on which savings and quality are most likely to be combined, unlike most other clothes or material goods.

Some things are impossible to find thrift: I have never seen a 3B Sack seersucker or poplin suit or madras jacket in a thrift store. Those I have bought new from Press. Same with corduroy. Sometimes I find ties but usually repps, if I want a motif I have to buy it new. 

Somet things I've inherited: overcoats, dress hats, tennis sweaters, madras, a suit or two.

Shirts, pants, shoes, underclothing, always new. I might make an exception on the shoes if I found Aldens somewhere that appeared to be completely unworn.

Car old, house will be old but it will be according to the advice of a little Plaid book my mom owns called "Life's Little Instruction Book" which states "drive a used car, but buy the best house you can afford"


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

EDIT: Double post


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

that you could and did get Brooks suits for $20(previously owned) is fantastic- I'd would do it in a heartbeat,no matter what my bank balance was-and consider it a great investment. I have never seen madras or seersucker in thrift either. we hope to see Cadillac picpost sometime-good luck w/that engine.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Also, keep in mind the "Boston Cracked Shoe" look that Thomas Wolfe verbalized.

These guys are long gone, as is the look. However, these were people with immense amounts of disposable income, and yet chose to go "cheap and comfortable.

Again, Adlai Stevenson, was perhaps best known for the picture of him in the 1952 presidential campaign showing a big hole in the sole of one shoe.

Trad, large disposable income, I would think so.

Carpe Diem


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

There is a shell cordovan equivalent of the "Boston cracked shoe" look. The "shell cord furrowed look"--when other shoes crack, shell cordovan develops those trademark welts and ridges.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

At Harris' recommendation I've been reading "The Last Patrician" about RFK, and the introduction paints a wonderful picture of the reverse snob world of Old New England, modesty and understatement were de rigueur. The Kennedy "compound" is a relatively modest affair. Its modesty, rather than the grandeur of the North Shore or Newport, which Joey K. could have afforded, showed the Kennedy's desperate desire to appear Old New England. It has to do with those good old Protestant values of thrift and restraint. One can't imagine William Penn or William Bradford in Kiton.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by 3button Max_
> 
> that you could and did get Brooks suits for $20(previously owned) is fantastic- I'd would do it in a heartbeat,no matter what my bank balance was-and consider it a great investment. I have never seen madras or seersucker in thrift either. we hope to see Cadillac picpost sometime-good luck w/that engine.


The people that said the engine was botched were frauds. I took it to GM who ran a test of their own and said that if the numbers matched these peoples numbers the car would not even start, but apparently it runs fine.

Lesson: Trad or not trad, "always get a second opinion"-Dad


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by septa_
> 
> At Harris' recommendation I've been reading "The Last Patrician" about RFK, and the introduction paints a wonderful picture of the reverse snob world of Old New England, modesty and understatement were de rigueur. The Kennedy "compound" is a relatively modest affair. Its modesty, rather than the grandeur of the North Shore or Newport, which Joey K. could have afforded, showed the Kennedy's desperate desire to appear Old New England. It has to do with those good old Protestant values of thrift and restraint. One can't imagine William Penn or William Bradford in Kiton.


Fascinating book. I love the George Will quote on the back.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by septa_
> 
> At Harris' recommendation I've been reading "The Last Patrician" about RFK, and the introduction paints a wonderful picture of the reverse snob world of Old New England, modesty and understatement were de rigueur. The Kennedy "compound" is a relatively modest affair. Its modesty, rather than the grandeur of the North Shore or Newport, which Joey K. could have afforded, showed the Kennedy's desperate desire to appear Old New England. It has to do with those good old Protestant values of thrift and restraint. One can't imagine William Penn or William Bradford in Kiton.


I still have a hard time calling the Kennedys reverse snobs. Yes, they deliberately downplayed in order to appear old New England but I think it might have worked better if it were a private act, rather than the very public "spin" they insisted on putting on themselves.

Not that I disliked the way they dressed, the two button sack has its place.


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## Uncle Remus (Aug 31, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by septa_
> 
> The other thing that we should all remember is that for most of us, the ultimate trad outfit costs nothing in comparison to what they talk about on the other AAAC fora. To the Lobb and Brioni set, $500 cordo Aldens seem cheap, and few would consider a $90 shirt, no matter how well made, luxe ... While the trad wardrobe may be more expensive than what most people wear, if one looks at the old suburbs of big cities, where trads and non-trads live side by side, this distinction becomes clear. In earlier generations, as well as now, trads used *conservative well made, but not extravagant goods *


This is correct. Fine, Alden Cordovan loafers are $500, and that's a lot for loafers, but it's not even beginning to approach the astronomical prices of some European shoes.

The less tradly on AAAC are OK with paying $300 for a Brioni shirt; Mercer is high-end on this forum and only their best shirts crack $100. Examples abound, but the basic point is that, while Trad has a cost hierarchy of its own, it's still very affordable.

And everything else Septa said is correct, too.


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