# Do you look down on people with Windsor or half-Windsor tie knots?



## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

As opposed to the classic four-in-hand :icon_smile:


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

yes, they are swine.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

iammatt said:


> yes, they are swine.


Oink!


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Never got over that school boy way of doing things.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

I don't believe it's fair to think of them as swine. Barbarians maybe.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

I keep wanting to click the "play" button to see if the collar points ever end up touching the shirt. My guess is no.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

If anyone is elegant enough to wear a tie, I am happy with any neatly tied knot. (This excludes the carrot.)

Some knots are better than others for certain situations. I do mostly half Windsors, but Tuesday, with a thick tie and a button-down collar, I wore a four in hand.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

Will said:


> I don't believe it's fair to think of them as swine. Barbarians maybe.


Does this means that windsor knotted ties are acceptable with fur underwear and battleaxes?


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> Does this means that windsor knotted ties are acceptable with fur underwear and battleaxes?


Only if you're wearing ridding britches when you are on you way to a fancy restaurant.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Bah! Spread collar, half Windsor, 'nuff said. Skinny tie, 50's guy.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

*No.*

I am a definite FIH man but know some stylish dressers who wear other knots. Steed wore a windsor knot and always looked cool.

*W_B*


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## Cravate Noire (Feb 21, 2007)

I'm a fan of the shelby/pratt knot, but I see no reason why a Windsor shouldn't look good with a matching collar.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Wear a string tie and a slide clasp...Tom Mix used to do it(?)! "Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys"...Please don't!


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

eagle2250 said:


> Wear a string tie and a slide clasp...Tom Mix used to do it(?)! "Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys"...Please don't!


Podnuh, ain't yew confusin' a string tie with a bolo tie? A string tie don't have no fool slide clasp, Ah reckon!


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

I wore a windsor knot once wehn I was around 22. My father did not stop heckling me the entire evening. He was right, I was a barbarian!


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

whistle_blower71 said:


> Steed wore a windsor knot and always looked cool.
> 
> *W_B*


Except for the knot in his tie. I've never liked the look of a windsor knot; the last time I wore one was in the mid 1950s and it was, IIRC, a heliotrope tie and a canary yellow shirt with a Mr. B collar.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

I have fired, and refused to hire, people for this.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Anything but a FIH with dimple and a 30° stand is awful, but let's be tolerant.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

manton said:


> I have fired people, and refuse to hire people, for this.


And, you can literally look down on them.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

manton said:


> I have fired people, and refuse to hire people, for this.


You've scrapped the dark-ops squads?


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

rocco said:


> As opposed to the classic four-in-hand :icon_smile:


You know, as the father of a young lady who battled leukemia twice and was counted out by the doctors the second time, based on the picture you've included I'd cut the guy slack-whether he's the doctor or the father of the child in the picture, even forumites have to concede at some point there are things of greater import. One of the doctors who kept my kid in the dance was a lady who would be doing life for felony bad taste but when it comes to saving kids' lives I don't care if they wear string ties, bib overalls and Keds.

For my own account, the acceptable knot list begins and ends with four-in-hand.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

manton said:


> I have fired, and refused to hire, people for this.


what are you? a senator? you want to give a speach but not have a vote on record?


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Brooksfan said:


> You know, as the father of a young lady who battled leukemia twice and was counted out by the doctors the second time, based on the picture you've included I'd cut the guy slack-whether he's the doctor or the father of the child in the picture, even forumites have to concede at some point there are things of greater import. One of the doctors who kept my kid in the dance was a lady who would be doing life for felony bad taste but when it comes to saving kids' lives I don't care if they wear string ties, bib overalls and Keds.
> 
> For my own account, the acceptable knot list begins and ends with four-in-hand.


At the risk of being indelicate, let me say that I think that the first picture of Prince Harry visiting the childrens' hospital was meant to be the example of a FIH. That said, your point that it isn't the proper focus of the picture is well taken. But I think it was meant as the "good pic" not the "bad pic". I don't think he was being held up for ridicule, but rather as a good example. At least that's how I took it.

I hope that your daughter is doing well today.

All that said, as a Windsor, wouldn't we expect him to be wearing a Windsor knot?


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## jml90 (Dec 7, 2005)

Brooksfan said:


> You know, as the father of a young lady who battled leukemia twice and was counted out by the doctors the second time, based on the picture you've included I'd cut the guy slack-whether he's the doctor or the No, I don't I wear a Pratt or FIH on most days.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Mark from Plano said:


> All that said, as a Windsor, wouldn't we expect him to be wearing a Windsor knot?


Windsor wrote that he never wore a Windsor knot. And his descendents follow in the proper path.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

[I hope that your daughter is doing well today.

All that said, as a Windsor, wouldn't we expect him to be wearing a Windsor knot?[/QUOTE]

She is well and will graduate high school one month from today-pretty good considering 10 years ago they gave her less than 25% chance to make another year. Puts everything else in perspective.


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## Mute (Apr 3, 2005)

I may be in the minority, but I find the FIH rather plain and lacking in personality.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

wait...what...windsor knot...windsor knot??? WINDSOR KNOT!?!?!?AAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!I *HATE* WINDSOR KNOTS!!! WHO SAID YOU COULD COME IN HERE AND TALK ABOUT WINDSOR KNOTS?!?!?! I DONT CARE WHO THEY ARE OR WHERE THEYRE FROM BUT I HOPE EVERYBODY WEARING A WINDSOR KNOT JUMPS OFF A BRIDGE AND THEN HAS THEIR PATHETIC LIFELESS BODIES THROWN IN JAIL FOR OFFENDING THE FASHION GODS!!!BUNCH OF UNFASHIONABLE SISSYS!!!

...lol...j/k I wear a windsor or a half windsor every day...I'm sure there are people who look down on me...but I'm pretty sure that my tie knot has nothing to do with it...


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Mute said:


> I may be in the minority, but I find the FIH rather plain and lacking in personality.


I find the FIH to have more personality than the Windsor and Half Windsor knots as it isn't symmetrical. The imperfection gives it character. The same goes for the larger Prince Albert knot.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> Podnuh, ain't yew confusin' a string tie with a bolo tie? A string tie don't have no fool slide clasp, Ah reckon!


That's the term I was trying to recall...a bolo tie! Thanks for the correction "Sundown".


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## Tom Bell-Drier (Mar 1, 2006)

I have to say I would prefer to wear the windsor and half windsor to the hangmans knot as warn by Saddam hussein recently


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

I would like to point out one very important thing: the degree of spread of the collar. A wide spread worn with a small knot looks awful. Similarly, a narrow spread worn with a huge knot looks awful, too. You can't judge based on a tie knot alone.


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

Will said:


> I don't believe it's fair to think of them as swine. Barbarians maybe.


If I'm a Barbarian for prefering the Half-Windsor to the Four in Hand for certain combinations of tie and shirt, what does that make a person who wears shorts and a t-shirt to work, or worse cuts someone's head off for religious reasons?


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

My father wore his ties with a windsor or half-windsor, but that was the 50's through 70's. He no longer wears ties, or only very rarely.

Nonetheless he taught me the four-in-hand because it was easier to learn, so that is all I use. But really, at this point I wouldn't look down on a clip-on given some of the alternatives ...


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## erdavis (Sep 19, 2004)

I thought this group would be more of a 1/2 Winsor group. Four in hand is what you do when you too drunk to tie a tie the proper way. ;-)

-eric


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## Harrydog (Apr 2, 2005)

No.

But I might be moved to look down on people who pose such silly polls....


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Oh god,
did I miss another group AAAC purchase?

The perfectly cloned, group DNA buy??
I must have, I guess I was too busy just being me and enjoying life to have noticed how incomplete I was without the right genetic tie knot. :-0


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

manton said:


> I have fired, and refused to hire, people for this.


Go ahead make my day - fire me!

(Oh BTW I don't have a job)

But there is no way just a thicker interlining could create that knot


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## KCE (Nov 13, 2006)

I wear a half windsor most of the time, so no, I don't look down on myself. It was the knot my father taught me years ago, and I've used it ever since.


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## satorstyle (Jan 2, 2007)

A nice substantial knot I feel brings out the beauty of the tie.


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## ar traveler (Mar 18, 2007)

I use FiH, Windsor, and 1/2 Windsor all the time... as the shirt, the tie, and my mood dictates.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I would look down on them if I deigned to consider them.


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## Mr. Clark (Apr 25, 2007)

Four in hand or a half Windsor depending on the collar. I tend to notice someone by how they dressed the knot rather than the knot.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

From the Ian Fleming novel _From Russia With Love:_ Chapter 25-A Tie with a Windsor Knot:

"The man had taken off his macintosh. He was wearing an old reddish-brown tweed coat with his flannel trousers, a pale yellow Viyella summer shirt, and the dark blue and maroon zig-zagged tie of the Royal Artillery. It was tied with a Windsor knot. Bond mistrusted anyone who tied his tie with a Windsor knot. It showed too much vanity. It was often the mark of a cad. Bond decided to forget his prejudice."


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Was watching Law and Order, CI tonight and noticed, once again, that ADA Carver's windsor knot on his necktie was significantly larger than his head. Without putting too fine a point on it, that's a ghastly look.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Sator said:


> But there is no way just a thicker interlining could create that knot


Not merely a thicker interlining, but also the way the tie was cut: wide throughout, especially at the knot area. From the shape of that knot, there is no way it could be a Windsor knot. I've never seen a picture of Prince Michael in a Windsor knot.


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## jml90 (Dec 7, 2005)

manton said:


> Not merely a thicker interlining, but also the way the tie was cut: wide throughout, especially at the knot area. From the shape of that knot, there is no way it could be a Windsor knot. I've never seen a picture of Prince Michael in a Windsor knot.


I was going to bring this up as well; it seems he wears his ties like the former PoW.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

manton said:


> Not merely a thicker interlining, but also the way the tie was cut: wide throughout, especially at the knot area. From the shape of that knot, there is no way it could be a Windsor knot. I've never seen a picture of Prince Michael in a Windsor knot.


True but nor is it a FIH.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

I go so far as to be prejudiced against anybody who I know is not prejudiced against windsor and half windsor knots.


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## Isak (Oct 26, 2003)

Mute said:


> I may be in the minority, but I find the FIH rather plain and lacking in personality.


+ 1. Sure, the knot can be too large but a FIH with a spread collar normally looks strange.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

FIH is usually the first knot dads teach their prepubescent little boys- some just haven't moved on, I guess. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

YESSSSSSSS!!!!

The poll is going against the haters!!!

(I do use the four in hand when it is the best knot for the tie and collar in question, though.)


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## Cravate Noire (Feb 21, 2007)

Though my father has never been seen alive while wearing a tie (at least not during the last 20 years, he'd rather hang himself with it...) he ties perfect windsor knots.
So that was the only one that was taught to me by him, everything else was either autodidactic or by people from the branch who wanted to teach something to the youngster.
That might be even an advantage if your fahter doesn't influence you, perhaps it's easier to develop a personal style or to have a quite pragmatic view on things.


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## Rolo (Aug 22, 2006)

At 5'3", I look down on no one.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

yachtie said:


> FIH is usually the first knot dads teach their little kids- some just haven't moved on, I guess. :icon_smile_wink:


Or grow up and stop playing the role of pretend Royalty by tying a FIH with a standard RTW tie (hmm...why are those of you who live in Republics more prone to this, I wonder). I always find it discomforting to see the POW with a puny FIH knot lost in the expanse of the collar. Either get your ties made with a thicker interlining like the Duke of Windsor - or tie a 'Windsor'/half-'Windsor' knot. And if you still feel it an insult to your Royal blood, then there are other knots you can tie which lend more bulk to the knot. Of course you can always wear turn down collars all the time which do go well with the slender FIH knot obtained from standard ties.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> YESSSSSSSS!!!!
> 
> The poll is going against the haters!!!


Caution the Royalists will consider themselves vindicated by being in the minority: 'Bah humbug I say - the commoners are sporting a Windsor'


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Well then, 

"Say it Loud! I'm common and I'm proud!!"


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Sator said:


> Or grow up and stop playing the role of pretend Royalty by tying a FIH with a standard RTW tie (hmm...why are those of you who live in Republics more prone to this, I wonder). I always find it discomforting to see the POW with a puny FIH knot lost in the expanse of the collar. Either get your ties made with a thicker interlining like the Duke of Windsor - or tie a 'Windsor'/half-'Windsor' knot. And if you still feel it an insult to your Royal blood, then there are other knots you can tie which lend more bulk to the knot. Of course you can always wear turn down collars all the time which do go well with the slender FIH knot obtained from standard ties.


Is it a Royalist thing? FWIW, my ties which I tie four-in-hand (sometimes with an extra wrap or two) have no lining. I find the large knots to be inelegant and poncey.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Sator said:


> Caution the Royalists will consider themselves vindicated by being in the minority: 'Bah humbug I say - the commoners are sporting a Windsor'


Royalty,....hmmmmm.....most of my friends are _queens_ and we most often wear FIHs, I mean _not_ to the opera or anything, there _are_ limits.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Sator said:


> Caution the Royalists will consider themselves vindicated by being in the minority: 'Bah humbug I say - the commoners are sporting a Windsor'


Sator, I am amused that you, of all people, are playing the populist card. :biggrin2:


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## jcriswel (Sep 16, 2006)

*Depends*

It depends on the thickness of the lining and how the tie knots. All of mine seem to have a mind of their own when it comes to knoting. If it has a thin lining and does not knot well, I'll go half-Windsor. If it has a thick lining, I'll go with a Four-In-Hand. It all depends on how the knot strikes me when I'm done. Sometimes the FIH knots look too skinny and don't have the right dimple. When that happens, I switch over to the half-Windsor. I have a broad face so the collars on most of my dress shirts are straight point. All of my knots seem to come out "tight" so a tie with a thick lining tightly tied in a half-Windsor looks good with the straight point collars. It all depends on how it looks after I finish tying the knot.

I hope I never have to go for a job interview with Manton. He would eat me alive!


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I will agree that a Windsor with the wrong tie (or apparently tied deliberately a certain way) will produce a mega-knot that usually does not look good.

However, I usually tie my tried and true half Windsor, but do FIH or Full Windsor when the collar and shirt work best that way.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

AlanC said:


> Sator, I am amused that you, of all people, are playing the populist card. :biggrin2:


The problem is with make-believe Royalty. The genuine thing is a different matter:

Call it poncey if you will but there is no doubt about it: no puny RTW FIH here.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Only use FIH for myself, way too lazy to do anything else.

Don't really care what others do, though don't care for the full Windsor at all, looks caddish.

Half Windsors are ok, so voted no.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*supercilious perspective*

I look with disdain on all who wear a fih, a button down collar, and who haven't read the "History of the Peloponnesian War".


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

dfloyd said:


> I look with disdain on all who wear a fih, a button down collar, and who haven't read the "History of the Peloponnesian War".


Did you like your history profs?


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

My feelings precisely. A well crafted and correctly proportioned half-windsor is always acceptable and proper.

I personally find a four-in-hand to look outdated and inappropriate in a modern business setting. I will assume that is the setting we are more topically concerned with here.

The photo of Prince Harry makes him look like a school boy with that tiny knot. With a half-windsor, not only would he look like he can actually tie his own tie, but he would also carry rather more gravitas.

Therefore, the only setting for wearing a four-in-hand is greeting school children. And as this is something which I do not partake in my spare time, I cannot say that I will ever have any inclination to resort to the rather childish four-in-hand.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I hope you were tongue in cheek and having fun with it.

We should be working together to promote tie wearing, not having a tie-wearers civil war, you know!!


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## Mitchell (Apr 25, 2005)

rp. said:


> I personally find a four-in-hand to look outdated and inappropriate in a modern business setting. I will assume that is the setting we are more topically concerned with here.


Jeepers. In some modern business settings it's difficult to find a guy wearing socks.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

In all seriousness, I don't usually notice what other people are wearing, and when I do, I generally don't bother to care.

The only exception to this is when I see a windsor or half windsor knot, in which case I am generally a bit put off, but more than anything I sort of chuckle at the person.


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

I'm apparently an outlier.. my father taught me the windsor knot and no other. Only once I started building my wardrobe and appreciation did I learn the half-windsor and four-in-hand (and me a Boy Scout and all!).

Since I still have a fair number of ties that are not exact fits for me, I choose knot based on a combination of the length of tie and type of collar. It's dreadful to tie a FIH, have the tie tip right down to the buckle and the other end of the tie sticking out below. 

(braces for withering replies)


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

radix023 said:


> Since I still have a fair number of ties that are not exact fits for me, I choose knot based on a combination of the length of tie and type of collar. It's dreadful to tie a FIH, have the tie tip right down to the buckle and the other end of the tie sticking out below.
> 
> (braces for withering replies)


I'll take the heat off you. I'm wearing a FIH today with the small end an inch longer than the large, and tucked into my trousers.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

radix023 said:


> Only once I started building my wardrobe and appreciation did I learn the half-windsor and four-in-hand (*and me a Boy Scout and all*!).


Hmmm...gives me an idea. Anyone ever try tying their tie with a bowline knot? :idea: Then if you need to rescue someone from drowning in the lake you're all set.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

dfloyd said:


> I look with disdain on all who wear a fih, a button down collar, and who haven't read the "History of the Peloponnesian War".


Well, I'm wearing my new Balliol tie (the crested version) tied in a FIH and a BD shirt at this very moment, but in my younger days I did read Thucydides three times in the Greek in conjunction with Gomme's commentary, so I hope that redeems me somewhat! One out of three still ain't good, I know!


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Sator said:


> The problem is with make-believe Royalty. The genuine thing is a different matter:
> 
> Call it poncey if you will but there is no doubt about it: no puny RTW FIH here.


Sator,

I can't believe you are a fan of The Dook!?!
He hated formal clothing, particularly stiff boiled shirts and tails. He had his lounge suit trousers made with belt-loops and wore loafers with them. I would have put you down as more of a George V kinda guy or that other chap..The Duke of Clarence...now he was more your style.

*W_B*


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

I tie the knot that suits the tie and the situation.

At work I tend to tie a half-windsor or full windsor if the tie is lightweight. Most of my work ties are small geometric foulards or occasionally stripes. I pair them with a pocket hanky with TV fold and find the neat, symmetrical look to be more fitting to my job.

In the weekends, however, I break out the paisleys, tie them four-in-hand or Albert, and puff the hanky.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

DougNZ said:


> I tie the knot that suits the tie and the situation.
> 
> At work I tend to tie a half-windsor or full windsor if the tie is lightweight. Most of my work ties are small geometric foulards or occasionally stripes. I pair them with a pocket hanky with TV fold and find the neat, symmetrical look to be more fitting to my job.


This is my answer too. All depends on what looks best with the tie. I don't like an excessively large knot, but a microscopic one can be just as bad.


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## idler (Nov 23, 2006)

*Never trust a man in...*

I voted no, becuase I'm not prone to looking down on people. But you would only rarely catch me in a Windsor knot and only as a practical solution to a difficult tie/shirt problem.

But I do remember as a boy, my father telling me never to trust a man who wears grey shoes or a Windsor knot. I must try to find out what experience of his led to this view!


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## Jolly Roger (Apr 26, 2007)

idler said:


> But I do remember as a boy, my father telling me never to trust a man who wears grey shoes or a Windsor knot. I must try to find out what experience of his led to this view!


Funny. My father told me never to trust a man whose name ends in a vowel.


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## idler (Nov 23, 2006)

*A wise man...*



Jolly Roger said:


> Funny. My father told me never to trust a man whose name ends in a vowel.


Err, surname or given name?

If you mean given name, a quick glance through my address book indicates that all but one of my friends and closer acquaintances meeting that criterion are French. Being an Englishman myself I would take that as sufficient evidence that your father was a wise, wise man. :icon_smile_wink: Any other nuggets to share from this astute gentleman?

I should perhaps own that one of these Frenchmen was trusted enough to be best man at my wedding, though!


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Jolly Roger said:


> Funny. My father told me never to trust a man whose name ends in a vowel.


Funny. My father told me never to trust a bigoted imbecile. ic12337:


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Okay, let's keep this on track, and only insult people based on their tie knot of choice.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

AlanC said:


> Okay, let's keep this on track, and only insult people based on their tie knot of choice.


beautiful Alan,
just beautiful!


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I am inclined to believe that those on this thread who have demonstrated distain for wearers of the half-windsor knot are perhaps basing their view on an unusually bad experience.

From time to time I do see a sartorially inept individual who has attempted some sort of tie knot, perhaps a half-windsor or perhaps not, and has left the knot looking ridiculously bulbus and as if he is smuggling three mice inside his tie knot.

Such tie-wearers should be pitied. Their evident lack of ability would suggest that they probably never had fathers to teach them, or more appropriate to my upbringing, were not able to read a book and teach themselves. So they are poor, simple, chaps.

However, this is not the sort of tie-knot which we are referring to here.

I, on the other hand, wear a half-windsor knot which is knotted reasonably tightly. Too tight a windsor can cause all manner of distortions. But the purpose of a windsor or half-windsor is not to look bulbus - it is supposed to look balanced.

A four-in-hand seldom creates balance, in my opinion. Unless you are a wearer of button down collars, then a four in hand will often make the tie look 'underweight'. Frankly, I would wonder why a man had even bothered to wear a tie at all.

Just my views. Do continue...


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Sator said:


> True but nor is it a FIH.


I bet it is.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

rp. said:


> A four-in-hand seldom creates balance, in my opinion. Unless you are a wearer of button down collars, then a four in hand will often make the tie look 'underweight'. Frankly, I would wonder why a man had even bothered to wear a tie at all.


Have you seen HRH Prince Michael's tie knot? It isn't underweight by any means, and it is tied with a four-in-hand knot. The balance of the Windsor knot is the reason why many don't like it. If your four-in-hand is too small just wrap the tie around the knot an extra time. I prefer the look of HRH Prince Charles' knot.


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## couch (Mar 8, 2005)

I'm mystified by the lumping of half-Windsors with full or double Windsors. An oversized knot is naff. An equilateral triangle of a knot suggests a clip-on or a fast-food uniform component. As my choice of terms suggests, I'm not usually favorably impressed when I see either.

When I tie a half-Windsor with a lighweight silk/lining, the knot is compact, slightly asymmetrical, and dressed to sit high, arch properly, and stay tight in the collar's vee. It is in proportion to the collar and face, and neither oversized nor equilateral. The effect differs very little from that of a FIH tied with a heavier silk/lining, which I also use. For a sharply cut away collar, I sometimes use the Nicky, which has the drawback of being quite symmetrical, but is a bit more elongated and much less bulky than the Windsor. 

To me, a FIH that is poorly dressed or allowed to slip looks just as bad in its own way as the swollen Windsor. It doesn't seem casually elegant to me, just sloppy. So for me it's not the specific knot that creates the gaffe, but the lack of proportion and fluidity. One can miss the mark on either side, as in other areas of dress.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

manton said:


> I bet it is.


Seconded - what do you think it is?


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## 2tieatie (Jan 15, 2008)

*Windsor Knot is Stuffy*

I do find the Windsor Knot stuffy and bulky. I just placed a post on th forum asking the same question. It seems like everyone shows the Windsor. It is one of my least favorite tie knots. I think the four in hand knot and St Andrews knot are far easier to tie and better necktie knots.

My teenage sons created a website over the summer and I have taken and intense interest now in the type of necktie knots that are being used.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

idler said:


> I voted no, becuase I'm not prone to looking down on people. But you would only rarely catch me in a Windsor knot and only as a practical solution to a difficult tie/shirt problem.
> 
> But I do remember as a boy, my father telling me never to trust a man who wears grey shoes or a Windsor knot. I must try to find out what experience of his led to this view!


...maybe a run in with John Steed? He wore both!

*W_B*


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## jimbob (Jun 24, 2006)

*windsors*

Last year on the "Top Chef" show one of the contestants wore these huge windsors as big as your fist. He looked like an idiot.


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## 2tieatie (Jan 15, 2008)

*Windsor Knot Overused*

I think the Windsor knot is over used. I prefer to tie the Balthus Knot or the Four in hand knot.

Here is a website that give step by step instructions with video and diagrams on how to tie neckties. There are over 15 covered.


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## 2tieatie (Jan 15, 2008)

*I love the Balthus Knot*

I have tied the Windsor and half Windsor for years but lately have been using the Balthus knot. You should try it out. A nice fat knot for a nice fat old man :icon_smile:

Below are a few of my other favorite knots






The boring knots


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## capitalart (Apr 2, 2007)

I had no idea there were so many ways to tie a knot. I learn somthing new every day in this forum.:icon_smile_big:


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## penguin vic (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Pipps said:


> a four in hand will often make the tie look 'underweight'. Frankly, I would wonder why a man had even bothered to wear a tie at all.


+1 in many instances. I've never understood the disdain for windsors on this forum and the overwhelming preference for the FIH. There's nothing worse than an anorexic FIH which, unfortunately, is what I see a lot of.



couch said:


> To me, a FIH that is poorly dressed or allowed to slip looks just as bad in its own way as the swollen Windsor. It doesn't seem casually elegant to me, just sloppy. So for me it's not the specific knot that creates the gaffe, but the lack of proportion and fluidity. One can miss the mark on either side, as in other areas of dress.


+1 again.



2tieatie said:


> I do find the Windsor Knot stuffy and bulky. I just placed a post on th forum asking the same question. It seems like everyone shows the Windsor. It is one of my least favorite tie knots. I think the four in hand knot and St Andrews knot are far easier to tie and better necktie knots.
> 
> My teenage sons created a website over the summer and I have taken and intense interest now in the type of necktie knots that are being used.


Quit spamming ...


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*To put it somply ...*

there is time and place for every knot.

When I started out at University, I was doing Windsors and half-Windsors (but they were well proportioned), and I found the latter slightly dis-balanced. My shirts were all Windsor collared.

I was then using the Albert or Victorian knots to do a 70's styled look.

When I switched to Polo and Paul Smith shirts I strated using the FIH, for a preppy look (the collars complemented this).

For a Crombie or an Udeshi shirt a Windsor would be the best.

Everything has to be well-placed and proportioned. You can spoil your looks with anything. Even a wrongly placed pocket square. Think with your brains and trust your eye.

Andrey


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## Lowndes (Feb 25, 2008)

If you look down on another guy for the way he ties his tie you have serious problems. How boring would this world be if every single person walked around in the four in hand knot. I don't think I have looked down on anybody for the way they dressed. Style is an individual thing and too each their own. The reason I think this board is great is because my personal style is more of the contemporary classic approach and I am learning a lot here. It is pretty silly though to actually look down on somebody or even care that somebody tied a half windsor or a four in hand knot.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

dfloyd said:


> I look with disdain on all who wear a fih, a button down collar, and who haven't read the "History of the Peloponnesian War".


I second that.


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## JDJ (May 2, 2007)

There's nothing wrong with a half windsor, but a full windsor just looks like crap. Too symmetrical.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

DougNZ said:


> I tie the knot that suits the tie and the situation.
> 
> At work I tend to tie a half-windsor or full windsor if the tie is lightweight. Most of my work ties are small geometric foulards or occasionally stripes. I pair them with a pocket hanky with TV fold and find the neat, symmetrical look to be more fitting to my job.
> 
> In the weekends, however, I break out the paisleys, tie them four-in-hand or Albert, and puff the hanky.


Sounds about right, Doug. Although I use a FIH generally some of my ties don't sit well with it and i need a half-windsor. So it definitely depends on the tie itself, accompanying attire, and circumstances.


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## AgentX (Mar 1, 2008)

Doesn't it get boring tying the same knot over and over?

I enjoy mixing and matching different ties, tied in different knots, with different shirt collars for different looks.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

dfloyd said:


> I look with disdain on all who wear a fih, a button down collar, and who haven't read the "History of the Peloponnesian War".


Whew, that was close. I do tie a fih with my button down collars, but fortunately for me I have read the "History of the Peloponnesian War". For a split second there I thought I was going to be looked at with disdain. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

2tieatie.com has the wrong instructions on a few knots, but most importantly the Pratt. It indicates how to tie a bowtie.

https://www.2tieatie.com/pratt-knot.html


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## fullgrain (Jan 5, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> Whew, that was close. I do tie a fih with my button down collars, but fortunately for me I have read the "History of the Peloponnesian War". For a split second there I thought I was going to be looked at with disdain. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


In the original or [sound of disdainful sniffing]--a translation?


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*Different types ...*

of collars and width of ties may call for different types of knots.

I am wearing an extreme windsor Stephens Brothers shirt today and a Frangi silk Italian tie - tied a half-Windsor.

And if we look at Udeshi's collars of Polo Purple Label - a Windsor is a must. You just have to balance it right, it has to blend in ...

Andrey


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## S.Otto (Aug 14, 2007)

manton said:


> I have fired, and refused to hire, people for this.


What do you do to have such expendable people?


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## S.Otto (Aug 14, 2007)

Khnelben said:


> And if we look at Udeshi's collars of Polo Purple Label - a Windsor is a must. You just have to balance it right, it has to blend in ...
> 
> Andrey


Those collars are extreme. The angle exceeds 180*; that is a little too much for me, even with a Windsor knot.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

fullgrain said:


> In the original or [sound of disdainful sniffing]--a translation?


Cliff's Notes. :icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big::icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Khnelben said:


> of collars and width of ties may call for different types of knots.
> 
> I am wearing an extreme windsor Stephens Brothers shirt today and a Frangi silk Italian tie - tied a half-Windsor.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I totally disagree. I wear the FIH with my RLPL Keaton collar.

*W_B*


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*Well, ...*

Whistle_blower71, it just shows that there as many opinions as there are people.

I have this inner wish lately for simple things - including classic tie knots, so I would not totally disagree with you.

Andrey


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*What Knot to Wear*

The Financial Times on Bill Clinton, David Beckham and Windsor knot:

https://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b975d10e-f171-11dc-a91a-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1


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## rossyl (May 28, 2008)

never been able to balance a half windsor...do tell the secret.


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## HISMES PARIS (Mar 26, 2008)

rossyl said:


> never been able to balance a half windsor...do tell the secret.


The beauty is in the fact that it's not symmetrical. And another thing: I don't think half-Windsors are at all similar to Windsors in terms of sartorial connotations, and I object to them being lumped together in this poll.


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## dcdapper (Feb 9, 2008)

Usually I do a four-in-hand or a Prince Albert. Every now and then I'll do a Windsor if I'm wearing a spread or cut-away collar.


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## 13eastie (Jun 1, 2008)

While I'm generally in favour of prejudice and discrimination when based on sartorial dogma, this matter does not call for hard and fast rules.

The knot should be selected which most becomes the collar, and sets the tie best against the shirt, but the knot should never be used so as to show off the tie.

Properly done, the FIH is the most traditional and elegant knot. But, misused, it looks dreadful. Most importantly, it should not be tied loosely to expand into a wide, open, cutaway, collar. Worn thus, the FIH may give the impression of the wearer being a professional soccer player, and should therefore precipitate his immediate ejection from wherever he happens to be (certainly this is the case at my house).

Also, the exclusive use of the FIH is not a good thing either. The most common reason for wearing it is simply that one knows no other knot, which is oikish and inexcusable.

The Prime Minister's ineptitude reaches far beyond his wardrobe, but I'll wager it all started from his tie-knot and his collar is the scene of his most heinous crimes, always involving a FIH...


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

I look down on most everyone... I'm kinda tall.

Full blown Windsors always look awkward to me, making me think, 'What's this large advertising space doing just below their chin??'

I tend to see the Windsor on all the wrong people as well, which doesn't help sell me on that knot. Might work well with an extremely thin fabric tie, but I pass on using it myself, unless maybe I want to look like a pimp, basketball player, over bearing politician, or prom date.


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