# Button Down Collars With a Tie??



## BamaCPA (Jan 19, 2008)

Aren't button down collars, by default, sport shirts and therefore not really supposed to be worn with a tie? Just reading back over the forum and splitting some hairs here. I know I don't have any bd shirts that I wear with a tie. :biggrin2:


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

BamaCPA said:


> Aren't button down collars, by default, sport shirts and therefore not really supposed to be worn with a tie? Just reading back over the forum and splitting some hairs here. I know I don't have any bd shirts that I wear with a tie. :biggrin2:


consider a bb ocbd or rlp bd can be worn with either neck tie or bow tie


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

A button down shirt with a tie is classic American look that is very much at home at dinner or in the office.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

A b.d. collar with the proper and elegant bell-shaped "roll" on either side of a well-dimpled tie (BB's "Polo" collar being the classic example) is one of the glories of American menswear. Here's Flusser on the b.d., fwiw:

*The Button-Down Collar*








The button-down collar was first introduced in this country by Brooks Brothers, patterned after the polo shirt worn in England. As explained earlier, the collar was originally fastened down in order to prevent flapping in the player's face during a match. This collar, unlike all others, is soft and meant to remain that way. It is without doubt the most comfortable collar and represents nothing less than the American spirit by producing a casual image so in tune with our heritage. It has been popular every decade since the twenties, and since its origins are definitely in sport, it is not considered a particularly dressy collar. Since it never lies exactly the same way, it offers an unpredictable buckling about the neck, thereby reflecting the wearer's individuality. It is a collar long associated with the Ivy League look and is especially complementary to the natural-shoulder suit. It is appropriately worn with tweed sports jackets and women suits. The Brooks Brothers original model remains the best version, for its points are long, permitting a "roll" that changes as the wearer moves. The button-down collar will accommodate a Windsor knot or a four-in-hand, and when worn with a bow tie, it projects the ultimate professorial image.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Sam Hober said:


> A button down shirt with a tie is classic American look that is very much at home at dinner or in the office.


Yes. Without concern for what someone's idealized standard may be, a sensible man dresses to look good while fitting in. In this country, the button down fits in.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

This is (still) OK for business on least formal days...


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Sam Hober said:


> A button down shirt with a tie is classic American look that is very much at home at dinner or in the office.


A button down shirt with a tie is classic British look as well.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

godan said:


> Yes. Without concern for what someone's idealized standard may be, a sensible man dresses to look good while fitting in. In this country, the button down fits in.


Fully agree. I often wear a bd with tie.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

godan said:


> Yes. Without concern for what someone's idealized standard may be, a sensible man dresses to look good while fitting in. In this country, the button down fits in.


Agreed. Note, though, that it looks awful on jowly/double-chinned men, who seem particularly drawn to it, and not much better on those with stoutly muscular necks. A large neck will totally crush the soft collar, rather than rolling it, and the whole thing will look like sloppy mess by miller time.


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## MRMstl (Nov 23, 2010)

Personally, I think bdc w/ a tie should only be worn with the most casual of suits and/or sport coats. I have never actually worn a bdc with a tie, and probably never will, as I really dislike the look. 

At a minimum, I think we should all agree that power suits with a button down collar is an absolute no-no. The bdc saps every ounce of power from a suit, dare I say it's the kryptonite of the business/formal suit. It should be avoided at all cost. 

It is also interesting to note that everyone claims the bdc w/ tie is a classic "American" look, and yet we all agree that the average American is quite sloppily dressed. Ironic, as I would expect more members of the forum to be inherently against the casual, increasingly sloppy trend of American dress. The bdc w/ tie is a definite step down in formality from any shirt with a true collar. IMO.


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## jwa_jwa_jwa (Jul 13, 2010)

MRMstl said:


> Personally, I think bdc w/ a tie should only be worn with the most casual of suits and/or sport coats. I have never actually worn a bdc with a tie, and probably never will, as I really dislike the look.
> 
> At a minimum, I think we should all agree that power suits with a button down collar is an absolute no-no. The bdc saps every ounce of power from a suit, dare I say it's the kryptonite of the business/formal suit. It should be avoided at all cost.


I agree with you on this one. I would consider wearing a tie a step down in formality. If I really want to dress it up in a suit and tie, I would never consider a button down dress shirt.


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## nosajwols (Jan 27, 2010)

The likely consensus here is it is OK. It is considered OK (normal) in the US and many members here are from the US. 

IMHO it is not OK, I am in the sport shirt should not be matched with a tie group (or a suit). 

It really just comes down to where you are.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

MRMstl said:


> At a minimum, I think we should all agree that power suits with a button down collar is an absolute no-no. The bdc saps every ounce of power from a suit, dare I say it's the kryptonite of the business/formal suit. It should be avoided at all cost.


I don't know about the power suit thing, but apparently one of the wealthiest, not to mention having a fair amount of power and influlence, men in America doesn't agree.










I don't either. For example, I hate the look of a spread collar and think that it ruins the look of a suit. I much prefer a point collar, and even think that a nice button down collar looks better than a spread collar. I'm glad that I live in America where the button down collar is acceptable in many of the halls of power.

Of course I suppose that when you have the power, any suit that you wear is a power suit regardless of collar style. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

BamaCPA said:


> Aren't button down collars, by default, sport shirts and therefore not really supposed to be worn with a tie?


Yes, exactly. That's why it's never been done and why you shouldn't do it either. I can't imagine anyone ever wearing a button down shirt with a tie - it's unheard of. If Brooks Brothers, the purported inventor of the button down, has never shown a button down with a tie in the shirt's over 100 year history, you should not question it now.

Imagine, a button down collar with a necktie......who's even imagined such a novelty let alone actually seen it.


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## MRMstl (Nov 23, 2010)

Cruiser,

If I was soliciting advice about oil investment and/or exploration, I would certainly value Boone Pickens' input. In fashion, however, I do not particularly care what an Oklahoma oil-man wears. Please do not show me any of Warren Buffet's ensembles either.

If wealth was a determinant of good taste, we would all be wearing jeans and black mockneck shirts.

Mike


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Cruiser, as usual, you are at your best when describing how things are, rather than how they should be. A realist, not an idealist.

To play the foil, allow me to suggest - no, *insist* - that Pickens will look like holy hell the minute he can no longer maintain his neck-craning pose. His ample jowls will re-appear and crush the collar into a mess, and its rolls will only reinforce those native to his neck.










Of course, if you're a good sedimentary geologist and oil speculator, your appearance is somewhat irrelevant to your wealth, and only very remotely relevant to your influence (wealth being far more important). Which I think was your point.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

MRMstl said:


> power suits


Is that what Iron Man wore?


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Button down collar with a necktie is fine during the daytime, but after 6 PM it's a huge faux pas! Never wear a button-down collar shirt with a necktie in the evening. And never day or night with a double-breasted suit.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

I acknowledge its acceptance, yet I really dislike the look.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

PJC in NoVa said:


> *glories of American menswear*


Oxymoron :devil: :icon_smile_big:

_(locks bunker door) _​


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> I don't know about the power suit thing, but apparently one of the wealthiest, not to mention having a fair amount of power and influlence, men in America doesn't agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My feelings exactly, very well stated by Cruiser, as usual. ALL of my shirt collars are button down, even my flannel shirts that I use for relaxing days off.

Thanks to Andy's advice, I am thinking of acquiring a couple of white dress shirts with collars other than button down, probably Ainsley, spread, or the rounded collar, which I particularly like. I despise pointed collars which remind me of cheap shirts from K-Mart or Sears and the disco era. :icon_smile_big:


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## WindsorNot (Aug 7, 2009)

Andy said:


> Button down collar with a necktie is fine during the daytime, but after 6 PM it's a huge faux pas! Never wear a button-down collar shirt with a necktie in the evening. And never day or night with a double-breasted suit.


I understand these conventions, but is it really a "huge faux pas" to wear a button down at night with a tie? What about a button down with a tie under a sweater?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

WindsorNot, I think it's a faux pas in the same way that wearing brown shoes after dark is a faux pas. Perhaps questionable at a very swank, 4-star eatery or some sort of just-shy-of-black-tie affair, but utterly acceptable in 99% of real life situations.


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

*Yet another sartorial point upon which we can all disagree . . .*

For myself, a shirt with a buttondown collar is by definition a sport shirt - worn with a tie and a sports jacket, (or more casually) but rarely would I wear such a shirt with a suit. As a sport shirt, worn open-necked, it is a classic, the lay of the collar framing one's face (whatever its shape) in a complimentary manner.

I know that it is a convention of post-WWII menswear that a white OCBD shirt is a dress shirt, and is part of the "uniform" of corporate America, but as a look it doesn't suit my tastes.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

CuffDaddy said:


> Cruiser, as usual, you are at your best when describing how things are, rather than how they should be. A realist, not an idealist.
> 
> Of course, if you're a good sedimentary geologist and oil speculator, your appearance is somewhat irrelevant to your wealth, and only very remotely relevant to your influence (wealth being far more important). Which I think was your point.


I plead guilty as charged on both counts; in addition to simply poking some good natured fun at those who view these matters in such absolute terms. I try to be a good sport when such fun is poked at me and I appreciate it when others take it in the same vein.

I hope folks understand that I was in no way saying that I think Mr. Pickens is some kind of sartorial expert. I was merely pointing out that in big business in America the button down collar isn't a sin. Actually it's an Eastern, or Ivy League, look and no doubt both politics and big business have been heavily influenced over the years by Ivy Leaguers.

As for me, I usually wear a point collar shirt with a suit; but when I'm watching my favorite TV dramas and see all of the TV lawyers and police detectives wearing button down collars with suits I can't help but think about how much I like it. But then I think of the snooty Ivy Leaguers that I've known and well---- :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser

ps. There was that one girl from Brown University that I dated some back in the late 70's, but that's another thing entirely.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

upr_crust said:


> I know that it is a convention of post-WWII menswear that a white OCBD shirt is a dress shirt, and is part of the "uniform" of corporate America, but as a look it doesn't suit my tastes.


And nobody is in a position to disagree! FWIW, I don't care for the look, either. I stick almost exclusively to double-cuffed shirts with suits, anyway, so it just never enters my mind to wear a button-down with a suit. But lots of otherwise well-dressed me have done it and do so.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

T. Boone Pickens is no Ivy-leaguer, in fact he's an Okie. He's one of the great salesmen of all time. He's presently long natural gas, so he's out selling the nation on natural gas as the solution to all our problems. He's out to look sincere and believable, so he's going with a dark suit and a white buttondown. He's a guy who knows exactly what he's doing. :icon_smile_wink:


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## tradfan207 (Nov 4, 2010)

I think the button-down gives off a nice serious image, especially in business. The spread collars and cutaways are bit too flashy for my taste. Point collars are good alternative to button downs, provided the collar is long enough to not fly up off the shirt.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

The Rambler said:


> T. Boone Pickens is no Ivy-leaguer, in fact he's an Okie.


I never suggested that he was; only that the button down collar with a suit and tie is Ivy League. Pickens is just one small piece of evidence that this has been accepted by business men all over the country, not just in New England.

The fact that the Europeans may not like it is all the more reason for me to embrace it as something American, no offense intended to my European friends. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

I don't like button down collars with ties but I don't think it's a big deal either. I associate it with a very preppy image, because most kids in prep school wear button down collars with their ties and blazers. If you're going to a billion dollar contract signing then stick to a spread but for the average man in an average day in the office, it doesn't matter. I'm not a fan of it but even I do it sometimes too, just in casual settings.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Button-down collar with a tie is, if anything, actually a "power look" in the real world.

Go to a Harvard Law School or Harvard Business School reunion if you don't believe me.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

MRMstl said:


> At a minimum, I think we should all agree that power suits with a button down collar is an absolute no-no. The bdc saps every ounce of power from a suit, dare I say it's the kryptonite of the business/formal suit. It should be avoided at all cost.


_I _certainly disagree. I would be _stunned _if you could find a boardroom in America that doesn't have at least 30% of the men wearing a BD collar with a tie at any given moment. There is nothing sloppy about a BD collar. Less formal? Perhaps. I certainly wouldn't wear one with a tuxedo. But business wear and formal wear are two totally different worlds.

And beside, I agree with the already mentioned thesis that the wearer is what makes a suit "powerful". As Starch points out, our world is run by Harvard MBA's that wear button-downs like it's their job.


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## deanayer (Mar 30, 2008)

I and many people I know wear ties with a white OCBD. It might get more universal approval if the tie was knit but where I live people will wear any tie with an OCBD. What is probably more common though is to see the tie/OCBD combo done with odd jackets more often than suits. I do have a bunch of ties I wouldn't wear with an OCBD as they are to blatantly formal for that casual a shirt. I wouldn't wear thicker/wider woven ties with it and I would tend to go with a four in hand knot for its smaller size. Lastly I think slightly thinner ties and ties with a country/day tie look to them work better.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

Mr. Mac said:


> _I _certainly disagree. I would be _stunned _if you could find a boardroom in America that doesn't have at least 30% of the men wearing a BD collar with a tie at any given moment. There is nothing sloppy about a BD collar. Less formal? Perhaps. I certainly wouldn't wear one with a tuxedo. But business wear and formal wear are two totally different worlds.
> 
> And beside, I agree with the already mentioned thesis that the wearer is what makes a suit "powerful". As Starch points out, our world is run by Harvard MBA's that wear button-downs like it's their job.


Agreed - I can't imagine where these no ties with button down thoughts come from in America - overseas there may be different expectations such as dimples in ties not being that popular in some places.


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## FrontHeadlock (Dec 1, 2009)

This is a no-go for me. Makes one look like a kid.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

Since the buttons on the collar are meant to hold it down, they are not necessary when wearing ties, since the tie keeps the collar from flapping.

I think a button down can look hip and modern when worn with a tie or bowtie since it provides a sportier look than a stiff non-buttoning collar. It's a good look sometimes, but not all the time.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

FrontHeadlock said:


> This is a no-go for me. Makes one look like a kid.


How something looks to you is certainly a personal thing and not something that another can dispute; however, after reading your comment I decided to look into it further. I did a Google search for corporate executives to see how many of the people who run the United States (we said that this was an American look) wear button down collars with ties, and was astounded at how many of them do.

Maybe we should all look like kids; however, since these were mainly middle aged and older men I didn't see the "kid" correlation.

What really interested me was this one picture I found that really stood out. On the right we have the Chairman of Nokia, a European, announcing the new CEO, a Canadian. A Canadian is almost an American. :icon_smile_big:

Interestingly enough the European is wearing a spread collar while the Canadian is wearing a button down collar.










Cruiser


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

OCBD with tie. Quintessentially breezy American look. Not for me (with a suit) but it's a completely established style.


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## nosajwols (Jan 27, 2010)

Re: Cruiser's post above....

In Canada you do see the odd (maybe even more) person wearing a button down and tie for no other reason than the proximity of the US and therefore the associated cultural influence (and it is possible that the above mentioned Canadian exec was US schooled or worked in the US).

To me I look at the above pic and the man on the right looks well dressed and is presenting authority. The guy on the left looks like a typical engineer/IT guy due mostly to the button down and tie (and maybe the bad haircut).

I would listen to the guy on the right, I would ask the guy on the left to fix my computer...

Just my opinion of course but that would be my first impression when meeting both. 

Just because someone is powerful it does not mean they are by default universally (from a world wide perspective) well dressed or they should be mimicked...


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

I'm wearing a tie with my blue pinstripe suit and BB pink OCBD as I type this.


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## FrontHeadlock (Dec 1, 2009)

Cruiser said:


> How something looks to you is certainly a personal thing and not something that another can dispute; however, after reading your comment I decided to look into it further. I did a Google search for corporate executives to see how many of the people who run the United States (we said that this was an American look) wear button down collars with ties, and was astounded at how many of them do.
> 
> Maybe we should all look like kids; however, since these were mainly middle aged and older men I didn't see the "kid" correlation.
> 
> ...


It has a juvenile look. That picture does nothing to dispel that for me.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

FrontHeadlock said:


> It has a juvenile look. That picture does nothing to dispel that for me.


Yeah, that Cary Grant guy looks horrible!


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## nosajwols (Jan 27, 2010)

KenR said:


> Yeah, that Cary Grant guy looks horrible!


He looks good as always, but he would look even better without the button down collar....


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

Cruiser said:


> Cruiser


The guy on the right looks better. The guy on the left doesn't look "bad" but he's definitely out-dressed by the other guy in every way.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Cruiser said:


> The fact that the Europeans may not like it is all the more reason for me to embrace it as something American, no offense intended to my European friends. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Cruiser


None taken. And one European in particular had a decidedly unorthodox take on the style:


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

a!!!!1 said:


> The guy on the right looks better. The guy on the left doesn't look "bad" but he's definitely out-dressed by the other guy in every way.


I think he'd look better if he tied his tie with a 4-in-hand. I've never liked the way a BD collar looks with bigger knots like the windsor.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

nosajwols said:


> Re: Cruiser's post above....
> 
> In Canada you do see the odd (maybe even more) person wearing a button down and tie for no other reason than the proximity of the US and therefore the associated cultural influence (and it is possible that the above mentioned Canadian exec was US schooled or worked in the US).
> 
> ...


Interesting. I disagree entirely. The gent on the left looks well dressed and ready for the board meeting, whereas the gent on the right looks in need of collar stays before he expresses his pedantry on the fine points of 19th century impressionism. In any case IMO the European would have done better to have selected a windsor rather than four-in-hand knot.

That said, both men really are appropriately dressed and any predilection to avoid button-down collars when wearing suits should be regarded entirely a matter of preference, and indeed one I usually (but not always) exercise. I agree with Cuff's response to Andy in that the major faux pas to which he refers would be true only in the rarest of circumstances. The "rule" that one should never wear a button down shirt with a suit at an evening function is akin to the "rule" that one should never wear a shirt with a pocket to such a function. A rule that is worth knowing so that one can disregard it knowingly, except at black tie events of course.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

a!!!!1 said:


> The guy on the right looks better. The guy on the left doesn't look "bad" but he's definitely out-dressed by the other guy in every way.


Obviously if you prefer the wide spread collar you would view it that way. Personally I think the wide spread looks downright goofy and the other guy's attire looks much better; although I will admit that attire aside, he is somewhat dorky looking. But that has nothing to do with his shirt.

Here is a picture taken at work almost 35 years ago. It's hard to tell but it looks to me like three of the four men, myself included, are wearing button down collared shirts. You can't see the buttons but it looks like a definite roll to the collars on three of us with only the guy on the right having a non-button down, and I'm not 100 percent sure of his.










And here's a picture from about 20 or so years ago in which I'm again wearing a button down collar with a suit. I like to think that old Cary and I can do this and make it look good; or at least in my case, not dorky. :icon_smile_big:










And finally here I am just last year again wearing a button down collared shirt with a suit and tie.










That's over 35 years and still counting for me. I guess I'm lucky that the button down collar police haven't caught up with me. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Mr. Mac said:


> I think he'd look better if he tied his tie with a 4-in-hand. I've never liked the way a BD collar looks with bigger knots like the windsor.


I agree. Indeed, each gent should have opted for the other's knot selection. A button-down looks better with a four-in-hand and a wide spread collar looks better with a Windsor.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

Cruiser,

You look good in all 3 photos.

And perhaps what the timing of the photos illustrates best is that button downs and ties have gone together in America for a long time.


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## WindsorNot (Aug 7, 2009)

+1 for Cruiser. I'm glad you're on our side fighting the good fight.

Re: the canadian/european photo, I think the guy on the left is dressed better. His lapels are certainly more balanced in proportion. However, the tie knots on each of these guys do not look good IMO.


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> Interestingly enough the European is wearing a spread collar while the Canadian is wearing a button down collar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





nosajwols said:


> Re: Cruiser's post above....
> 
> To me I look at the above pic and the man on the right looks well dressed and is presenting authority. The guy on the left looks like a typical engineer/IT guy due mostly to the button down and tie (and maybe the bad haircut).





a!!!!1 said:


> The guy on the right looks better. The guy on the left doesn't look "bad" but he's definitely out-dressed by the other guy in every way.





Mike Petrik said:


> That said, both men really are appropriately dressed and any predilection to avoid button-down collars when wearing suits should be regarded entirely a matter of preference.... A rule is worth knowing so that one can disregard it knowingly, except at black tie events of course.


From a purely physiological standpoint they are both wearing their correct collar shape; the slighter man is wearing a spread collar to accent breadth at the shoulders and neck, the stouter man doing the reverse with a pointed collar shape, albeit with buttons. If we disregarded the 'rules of dress' for a moment they are wearing *exactly* as they should to complement their differing physiques.

Well said Mike. Made up as they are, rules are guidelines to be followed to help one dress appropriately and should not stand in the way of a gentleman looking good who is not dressed inappropriately. Neither of those men are dressed inappropriately.

Blair


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## ATLien (Jan 6, 2009)

In the US it is certainly perfectly OK to combine BD collars with suits. Indeed I would estimate that you see more suit+BD collar shirts in corporate America than suits+spread collar. In Europe BDs are certainly less common, but I still doubt that somebody will not make a business deal with you because of your BD collar. Honestly, hardly anybody will notice. 

Is it OK by the rules. Well, Andy says yes (during daytime) - I would not dare to disagree even though I am not so sure what the folks on Savile row would say.

Does it look good? This is up to to the individual. I for my part think it looks crappy, but it could be much worse (not too long ago I have seen a fellow wearing a polo shirt with a tie...)


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I don't worry too much about the no button down with suit thing. I might avoid it for a job interview or something. I don't think that away from the Clothing Boards, people worry about that much in America.

As for the two executives in that picture, I don't like either of their tie knots. They aren't egregiously bad or anything, but they could both be better executed. In particular, the gentleman wearing the button down collar would like nicer with a smaller (probably four-in-hand) knot. I've seen four-in-hand knots look nice on spread collars, but his knot is fair at best. Maybe he needs to make it a bit tighter; I'm not sure.


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## nosajwols (Jan 27, 2010)

I know it is worn regularly at weddings and funerals in Southern Ontario by those who's best threads are a white OCBD, borrowed tie, black jeans, white socks, black leather jacket and black rubber soled shoes--always seems to fit the bill here... .

I think we all agree it is a US specific look (in the grand scheme of the world a regional look) that finds some limited following in Canada and not very many other places in the world... Is there anyone in this forum outside the US (and maybe Canada) that finds it a good combination and if so are you an IT guy???


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

You probably don't realize it, but you have probably said a lot more about yourself than either IT guys or folks who wear button down shirts with ties. I hope you weren't trolling.


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't give a fig for the "rules", but, since I have both kinds of shirts, I've never seen the point of wearing a button-down with a tie. If you're wearing a tie, your collar is going to stay in more or less the same place whether it has buttons or not. To me, the whole point of a button-down is to keep your collar from wandering around and making you look like a slovenly drunk when you're _not _wearing a tie. So if you have both kinds of shirts, why not wear the button down without the tie and the others with a tie?


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

nosajwols said:


> I know it is worn regularly at weddings and funerals in Southern Ontario by those who's best threads are a white OCBD, borrowed tie, black jeans, white socks, black leather jacket and black rubber soled shoes--always seems to fit the bill here... .
> 
> I think we all agree it is a US specific look (in the grand scheme of the world a regional look) that finds some limited following in Canada and not very many other places in the world... Is there anyone in this forum outside the US (and maybe Canada) that finds it a good combination and if so are you an IT guy???





forsbergacct2000 said:


> You probably don't realize it, but you have probably said a lot more about yourself than either IT guys or folks who wear button down shirts with ties. I hope you weren't trolling.


I do believe he was making making his point with tongue slightly planted in cheek. I can't really say I disagree with him. Button downs are much less common in the rest of the world than in central and eastern Canada and USA, and is therefor a regional differentiation just as a British cut is from a continental cut, and a southern drawl is from a Bahston accent. He's not trolling.


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## HalfLegend (Aug 1, 2010)

blairrob said:


> I do believe he was making making his point with tongue slightly planted in cheek. I can't really say I disagree with him. Button downs are much less common in the rest of the world than in central and eastern Canada and USA, and is therefor a regional differentiation just as a British cut is from a continental cut, and a southern drawl is from a Bahston accent. He's not trolling.


Very valid point is made by both people here, but nevertheless, my international experience is quite limited at the moment which makes me wonder: what is the casual wear outside NA as far as full button-down shirts, or phrased differently, what replaces the OCBD?


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Ties aren't worn by as many people every day as they used to, and thus ties are considered more formal than they were 60 years ago. I don't think that button-down collars have risen in formality as much as ties have, and with this logic a tie is no longer as appropriate with a button-down collar as it used to be. Likewise, this is why notch lapels aren't as appropriate on dinner jackets. Notch lapel dinner jackets weren't always the evil that they are considered to be nowadays, but they were more appropriate when wearing a dinner jacket when dressing for a private dinner. White tie is almost dead and now black tie occupies a higher place on the formality scale. For these reasons the notch lapels have lost their place with formal clothing. The neck tie has likewise gone up in formality and makes it less appropriate for more less formal wear. This is more on the lines of thinking about it from a modern perspective. But if you still wear white tie on occasion and wear ties everyday, I don't see a problem with wearing ties with button-down collars.


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## nosajwols (Jan 27, 2010)

blairrob said:


> I do believe he was making making his point with tongue slightly planted in cheek. I can't really say I disagree with him. Button downs are much less common in the rest of the world than in central and eastern Canada and USA, and is therefor a regional differentiation just as a British cut is from a continental cut, and a southern drawl is from a Bahston accent. He's not trolling.


You nailed it....


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

HalfLegend said:


> Very valid point is made by both people here, but nevertheless, my international experience is quite limited at the moment which makes me wonder: what is the casual wear outside NA as far as full button-down shirts, or phrased differently, what replaces the OCBD?


Throughout Europe, button downs are rare indeed, and in Eastern Europe they are as rare as hen's teeth. :icon_smile_big:

In warmer weather, in addition to polo type shirts, the men wear button down dress type shirts usually in a light color with pointed collars. However, their pointed collars are less pointed than the ones in North America. The shirts are also more apt to be made of a textured material than ours here in NA.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Matt S,

I hadn't thought of it that way, and I'm not entirely convinced, but the logic is appealing. For those of us in environments where ties are still worn everyday, maybe it doesn't apply...


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

This no BD with a tie in Europe thing would explain why I'm always getting thrown out of Parisian restaurants; that, and the fact that I'm an egocentric America!:icon_smile_big:


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Mr. Mac said:


> This no BD with a tie in Europe thing would explain why I'm always getting thrown out of Parisian restaurants; that, and the fact that I'm an egocentric America!:icon_smile_big:


Keep up your egocentricism and wear a Bush For President t-shirt and you will be forced to visit supermarkets if you want to eat while in Paris. :icon_smile_big:


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Yet another thread about some triviality, which will run and run for pages and pages. Black suits, battery operated watches, button down collars.. I wonder what will be next?


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

blue suede shoes said:


> Keep up your egocentricism and wear a Bush For President t-shirt and you will be forced to visit supermarkets if you want to eat while in Paris. :icon_smile_big:


Where you may find staff with better manners than in Parisian restaurants.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

In general I wear buttondowns with summer poplin suits and certainly with a blazer or any sportcoat.

For suits in general I prefer point collars.

I rarely wear casual shirts that don't have buttondown collars, the exceptions being LL Bean chamois shirts, fishing shirts and the like.

And that's that.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

I live my life in ocbd and tie. For a second there, I thought I'd made a 53 year mistake!
:tongue2:


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

MikeDT said:


> Yet another thread about some triviality, which will run and run for pages and pages. Black suits, battery operated watches, button down collars.. I wonder what will be next?


Could it be that we have run the gamut of important topics, and that they have all become trivial? Does this call our relevance into question? Nah. Now, about those watch batteries........:icon_smile_big:


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Matt S said:


> Ties aren't worn by as many people every day as they used to, and thus ties are considered more formal than they were 60 years ago. I don't think that button-down collars have risen in formality as much as ties have, and with this logic a tie is no longer as appropriate with a button-down collar as it used to be.


Spoken from the point of view of a clothing enthusiast. In order for this to have validity one must accept the premise that most men think like a clothing enthusiast thinks, something that I know to not be true. I seriously doubt that men in general think in terms of how formal one collar style is vs. the other. I know that I never did and I'm probably as cognizant of these things as your average guy.

In fact I would go so far as to suggest that a significant percentage of men in the U.S. really don't make much of a distinction between wearing a suit and wearing a sport coat.

It's not much different than debating about open vs. closed lacing on shoes and which is appropriate with a suit. I doubt that most guys in the U.S. distinguish the difference between the two styles of shoes, much less think about their levels of formality. Same with shirt collars.

And before folks start chiming in saying that they don't dress like "most men" or take clothing advice from this or that well known person, that isn't the point. We aren't talking about dressing like someone else or taking their advice. We are talking about public perception and in general the public in the U.S. views the button down collar as being entirely appropriate, actually preferred by many, with a suit and tie.



> Likewise, this is why notch lapels aren't as appropriate on dinner jackets. Notch lapel dinner jackets weren't always the evil that they are considered to be nowadays


Outside of the small fraternity of clothing enthusiasts, notch lapel tuxedos aren't considered to be "evil" at all. In fact at most black tie events these days, at least in the U.S., they will easily outnumber the other styles combined.

For example, three of the last four U.S. Presidents have favored the notch lapel, something that I'm sure they wouldn't do if they thought that a significant number of people thought of it as evil or even as a negative. In reality, few people distinguish between the different lapel styles; but instead simply see a tuxedo as a tuxedo as a tuxedo. Again, much the same as with the shirt collar styles.

Cruiser


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

MikeDT said:


> Yet another thread about some triviality, which will run and run for pages and pages. Black suits, battery operated watches, button down collars.. I wonder what will be next?


Isn't the essence of this entire board (and most internet fora) endless discussion about topics that are, in the grand scheme of things, trivial? What should we do instead, sit silently in contemplative meditation?


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I quite agree with CD. Perhaps a forum on international relations or human rights deals with weightier issues.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Cruiser said:


>


It was mean not telling the man on the far left that Thursday is Red Tie Day!!

I experimented with non-button downs in the past but I am now an affirmed button down guy.

I have decided that button downs are not good with pin striped or more formal suitings, so I don't own anything but blue or gray suits or sportcoats.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

wear a button down with an ascot or with a knitted tie and sport coat. I don't like them worn with suits and ties.


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## LoneWolf (Apr 20, 2006)

Frankly, I think the gentleman on the left looks best. His collar is secured and has a nice roll while the one on the right seems to be hovering above the shirt as if the tie is too thick or the knot is too large. Moreover, the gentleman the left appears to have dressed more creatively, pairing a patterned suit and patterned tie, while the gentleman on the right appears to be wearing a solid black (!) suit with a tie whose pattern, if there is one, is so subtle that it looks like it's textured (although he is wearing a patterned shirt so he may be sticking to the old two-solids-one-pattern rule).

I've heard that you're not supposed to wear ties with button downs but I've continued to do so (nothing looks better with a bow tie IMO). One consideration that I make however, is the formality of the suit - I do avoid button downs with dressier suits. Otherwise, whatever coordinates with what's next in my rotation.


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## Scott T (Dec 30, 2010)

I try not to get too caught up on what the rules are. I wear both with ties. In Eastern Canada it is very common to wear a BD with a tie. I like the variety but if I have a more formal occasion I will normally not wear a BD.


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## At Law (Apr 15, 2008)

Cruiser said:


> I hate the look of a spread collar and think that it ruins the look of a suit. I much prefer a point collar,
> 
> Cruiser


I completely disagree. A spread collar with a suit is the only polished way to go. Very English looking and very elegant. 
A point collar looks horrible when worn with a suit and suggests it was purchased at JAB, Men's Wearhouse, Sears, or the like.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

And of course no real man would purchase a suit at one of these places. 

I'll concede there are better suits, but especially JAB and Men's Wearhouse can work for a lot of people. (The key at Men's Warehouse is finding a tailor who knows how to fit the suit.) Almost any suit that fits well will look decent (assuming it's not a flashy color or cut) although I'll concede that the higher quality suits will last longer and probably not get as disheveled during a day's wear.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

CuffDaddy said:


> Isn't the essence of this entire board (and most internet fora) endless discussion about topics that are, in the grand scheme of things, trivial? What should we do instead, sit silently in contemplative meditation?


The thing is I do actually like reading these long threads. I think its wonderful how people become so dedicated, polarised and opinionated about things like black suits, button down collars or battery operated watches.

Keep it up gents.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

British, suit button down, doesn't look a bad look to me.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

^^^^^^^^

Looks like he's wearing a *black* suit as well. Nothing wrong that I can see here.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

I think it's dark grey but it doesn't matter to me.


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

Button-down collars are appropriate with a suit and tie 24/7/365.

366 in leap years.


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> The key at Men's Warehouse is finding a tailor who knows how to fit the suit.


I went to Men's Warehouse in my early suit-wearing days and the tailor was wearing his pants at his chest and looked like he was about to audition for the circus. I almost laughed at him. If you can't even wear clothes that fit yourself, how is anyone supposed to believe you can make their clothes fit?



Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> British, suit button down, doesn't look a bad look to me.


Actually doesn't look too bad. But he'd easily look better if, keeping all other factors constant, he just substituted the collars for spreads.



MikeDT said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Looks like he's wearing a *black* suit as well. Nothing wrong that I can see here.


If you can't even tell if it's dark gray or black, who cares? This is snobbery at its finest.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

For as many years as I've been coming here (and not much, recently) I've read the rule about not ties with a button-down collar.

While it's kind of charming to see that things haven't changed, I can't say that it's ever been a rule in American men's dress for the almost sixty years I've been drawing breath. In that way it's kind of like the "rule" one sometimes sees around here that a proper dress shirt cannot have a pocket. Of course, that quickly devolves into a sort of elitist argument, that I'm never sure if it's serious or tongue in cheek, that if you're a gentleman you are either not in trade or you always have a servant to provide you with a pen or a piece of paper or whatever you would otherwise keep in your shirt pocket.

Can we agree that in both cases it's not a rule but a preference? A preference most of us happen not to share, apparently, but a preference nonetheless.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> British, suit button down, doesn't look a bad look to me.


Did anyone notice that this is a tab collar, not a button-down? A tab collar requires a tie, so there's no question here. And on my screen the suit looks navy.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

At Law said:


> I completely disagree. A spread collar with a suit is the only polished way to go. Very English looking and very elegant.
> A point collar looks horrible when worn with a suit and suggests it was purchased at JAB, Men's Wearhouse, Sears, or the like.


You took the words right out of my mouth. You obviously have good taste. If I don't wear a button down collar with a tie, I would wear a spread or rounded collar.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

wheredidyougetthathat said:


> Button-down collars are appropriate with a suit and tie 24/7/365.


... but not in row....



> Of course, that quickly devolves into a sort of elitist argument, that I'm never sure if it's serious or tongue in cheek


While I also remain unclear as to what may or may not be tongue in cheek (or, to put it another way, intentionally ironic), I find it ironic in _this_ case - whether intentionally or un - that if you look at the closest thing there is to an elite in this country, you'll see button-down collars with ties strapped around them and suit coat over the top with more, rather than less, frequency than in just about any other group.

I think the anti-buttondown element may be allied with the Tea Party ("No, really, it's right there in the 10th Amendment - You shouldn't wear buttondown collars with a suit....")


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Starch said:


> ...if you look at the closest thing there is to an elite in this country, you'll see button-down collars with ties strapped around them and suit coat over the top with more, rather than less, frequency than in just about any other group.


That's an interesting point because the button down collar is an old money, Ivy League thing and there is no doubt that for an awful long time those guys controlled just about everything from big finance to government. Of course that changed somewhat with the dot com millionaires and big oil money, but the button down collars were something of a trademark for the rich and powerful in the East.

What this means is that whichever way you go you are imitating the rich and powerful. It's either the Ivy League snobbery or the even older European snobbery, which incidentally some Americans (especially clothing enthusiasts) like to imitate. If I have to wear a tie I think I'll go with the Ivy League snobbery. At least it's American. Of course it's easier to simply not wear a tie. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

Cruiser said:


> Of course it's easier to simply not wear a tie. :icon_smile_big:


OH MY GOD A SUIT WITHOUT A TIE??? blasphemy


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Matt S said:


> Did anyone notice that this is a tab collar, not a button-down? A tab collar requires a tie, so there's no question here. And on my screen the suit looks navy.


It's a hidden button down, I even zoomed the images to check after reading your post, I watched this show religiously and noticed he often wore them.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

He has been seen wearing a tab and a spread collar as well, he is wearing a tab in the episode where he kills an enemy operative with his tie.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Andy said:


> And never day or night with a double-breasted suit.


Then why, I wonder, did Bruce Boyer select a photo of Astaire in precisely such dress to adorn the cover of his book on the man's style? The wearing of OCBD with DBs was not unusual in the forties and early fifties as men sought alternatives to the earlier DB with collar pin/collar bar/collar tab look.

It can look superb, but then, how often do you see DBs nowadays anyway?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Finian McLonergan said:


> Then why, I wonder, did Bruce Boyer select a photo of Astaire in precisely such dress to adorn the cover of his book on the man's style?[/IMG]


Here's another picture of Fred Astaire wearing a button down collared shirt with a double breasted suit.










A quick Google search will turn up quite a few pictures of both Astaire and Cary Grant wearing shirts with button down collars with their suits, including the oft repeated picture of Grant wearing said shirt with a double breasted suit. Of course there are also pictures of Grant wearing a notch lapel tuxedo. :icon_smile_big:

As for the commonly repeated comment here about them being allowed to break the rules because they know the rules, I say hogwash. If you think it looks good, then wear it. If you think it looks bad, then don't wear it. That sounds like a good rule to me as long as some good old basic common sense is used regarding one's environment at the time.

Cruiser


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Interesting point, Finn. I think the reason that Cary Grant and Fred Astaire (two true style heroes whose actions usually put the stylishness of an action they adopted beyond dispute) could carry off a DB suit with a BD collar is that the meaning of a DB suit was very different in mid-20th-century than it is today. 80 years ago, a DB suit was seen as no more formal than a SB suit, and, indeed, as _less_ formal.* Today, that meaning is reversed, and a decently-cut DB is seen as a quintesential "power" or "formal" suit.**

Thus, in 1935, a DB with BD was not a contradiction in terms. Today, it will read as such to almost all viewers. Just as the meaning of certain words in verbal language changes over time, the meaning of some "words" in the language of clothes changes. A DB just doesn't mean what it used to mean, and that changes what _other _words we can use with it and still make (easyily-understood) sense.

* Notice that the most formal clothing - morning dress and white tie - does not have a DB option. 
** Notice that it is virtually impossible to find an OTR DB odd jacket, barring the blazer/reefer (which is, itself, the most formal of the odd jackets excluding strollers, which can also be DB).


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Spend an enjoyable half hour looking at the long-running "American Trad Men" on the Trad forum to see how button down shirts can be worn with suits.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

Every time this topic comes up for discussion I'm reminded of one of the best dressed men I've ever known. He sold menswear for almost 50 years before hanging it up and had one of the most gorgeous wardrobes I've ever seen. Everything he wore was top-drawer. And the _only _dress shirt he wore was a white button down. I asked him about it once. He said, "When I first started in this business in 1958 I wore white button downs. And I've never seen a reason to wear anything else."

Not bad advice for a guy that made millions dressing other men!


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I think the biggest problem I have with the button-down collar is that it is too American. Label me as an anti-American who needs to move out of the country if you like.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Too American??

Why, there is simply no such thing!!


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Mr. Mac said:


> I asked him about it once. He said, "When I first started in this business in 1958 I wore white button downs. And I've never seen a reason to wear anything else."


The white button down was pretty much the norm when I was growing up in the South. Here is a picture from 1965 in which I'm wearing said white button down shirt with a suit. I was never one to blaze new ground so if I was wearing this style shirt back then it meant that most of the guys around me were too.










I've seen this so much over my lifetime that I'm not really sure that I was aware that there was a "rule" saying that you weren't supposed to do it until I read it here. Actually if there is anything in this photo that I don't like in retrospect, it's those butt ugly eyeglasses. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Matt S said:


> I think the biggest problem I have with the button-down collar is that it is too American. Label me as an anti-American who needs to move out of the country if you like.


It is that. That's not to say that plain collars are un-American, Matt, so unpack those bags! btw, Connery/Bond has been my sartorial ideal for a long time, and I thoroughly enjoy your blog.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Cruiser, although I don't personally wear BD's with suits, I'm in broad agreement with you. It is, and has always been within my lifetime, absolutely ubiquitous. 

I did hear this "rule," though, before encountering it on the fora. I recall reading or hearing that Warren Burger, CJ of the Supreme Court, would excoriate counsel who came to the Court in a BD collar. Of course, that was back in the days when a good many practicioners, not just the Solicitor General's staff, wore morning dress before that Court, and BD's are now pretty common even before that august body.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> It's a hidden button down, I even zoomed the images to check after reading your post, I watched this show religiously and noticed he often wore them.


This one definitely looks like a tab collar:


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

CuffDaddy said:


> Interesting point, Finn. I think the reason that Cary Grant and Fred Astaire (two true style heroes whose actions usually put the stylishness of an action they adopted beyond dispute) could carry off a DB suit with a BD collar is that the meaning of a DB suit was very different in mid-20th-century than it is today. 80 years ago, a DB suit was seen as no more formal than a SB suit, and, indeed, as _less_ formal.* Today, that meaning is reversed, and a decently-cut DB is seen as a quintesential "power" or "formal" suit.**
> 
> Thus, in 1935, a DB with BD was not a contradiction in terms. Today, it will read as such to almost all viewers. Just as the meaning of certain words in verbal language changes over time, the meaning of some "words" in the language of clothes changes. A DB just doesn't mean what it used to mean, and that changes what _other _words we can use with it and still make (easyily-understood) sense.
> 
> ...


I'm not so sure about this. The double breasted suit was presented as a "next best" alternative to a morning coat (production of which was banned during WWII to save cloth) in this Apparel Arts picture from the 1940s. Note the formal "wedding tie":

And the tailcoat has its origins in a double breasted coat, as in this picture of the Beau. The six buttons on the front of a tailcoat appear to be a double breasted vestige:










Finally, the morning coat has its origins as the more casual alternative to the more formal, double breasted, frock coat, seen in this image from 1904:


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

PJC in NoVa said:


> This one definitely looks like a tab collar:


 You are right you can see where it pulls.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Fair enough, Talesin. I am not particularly knowledgeable about Edwardian, Victorian, or Regency clothing. I was merely relying upon things that I had read elsewhere. Did you and Sator have this out at some point?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> You are right you can see where it pulls.


Sir Harry's wardrobe makes good sense for the character. He's a very busy man with a (to say the least) high-pressure job. At some point in his life, he decided he'd wear nothing but white, tab-collar (or hidden bd) shirts, and that's what he does. One less decision to spend time on in the morning before he goes "on the grid" with his "spooks" to "defende Regnum."

It's also good to see he grasps the wisdom of wearing braces w/ a 3pc suit (you can see the brace strap peeking out from under his waistcoat), even if such a rig can take a bit of extra time to deal w/ in the gents'.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Taliesin said:


> I'm not so sure about this. The double breasted suit was presented as a "next best" alternative to a morning coat (production of which was banned during WWII to save cloth) in this Apparel Arts picture from the 1940s. Note the formal "wedding tie":


Maybe so but men have been wearing double breasted suits as casual wear for a long time, much in the same manner that single breasted suits are worn casually today. For example, here are a couple of pictures of my Dad taken in 1945 wearing his typical Saturday night date attire, and I can assure you that my Dad didn't dress in a manner that was different from his contemporaries at the time.



















Clearly the double breasted suit wasn't thought of as being so far up the formality scale that it couldn't be worn casually without a tie. I can't help but notice that he is still wearing his belt from the Army in both pictures. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

great stuff, Cruiser. Have you digitized the family album?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Apparently Italian necktie maker Patrizio Cappelli is one European who favors button down collars. I've only seen two pictures of him and he is sporting this style in both, and like a true Italian he has left one button undone. :icon_smile_big:










Cruiser


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm usually one of the first into the fray when it comes to absolutely defending the button-down with a suit and tie crowd. I've been quite busy getting back into the first of the year flow and thus somehow this thread escaped my attention. Just as well. Not for the first time, I find myself agreeing entirely with everything Cruiser has said. Job well done, Cruiser. When I attend that most solumn of all ceremonies, I have instructed all to make sure they lay me out with a OCBD...just hopefully not for many years.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Malloy*

I am surprised no one has yet posted the picture of William F. Buckley wearing an OCBD with evening clothes.

The author of How to Dress for Success urged his readers to wear the Ivy League clothes, including the shirt style presently under discussion, in order to look like a member of the elite. I believe Mr. Malloy has apologized for the resulting negative effects of his advice on American style.

Although I am a westerner I grew up wearing OCBD's with suits and did so throughout my working life. I also wore penny loafers with said suits and OCBD's, comfortable in the knowledge that I was wearing the uniform of the men who ran things. I don't know if this made a difference in how well I did, but one boss, who was a clothes horse, told me he assumed me to be of wasp ancestry, which happens to be the case.

Since retiring from the day job, and joining this forum, I have broadened my clothing horizons considerably. I rarely wear OCBD's except under sweaters and never with a tie. I do retain a fondness for their unique Americanness, one aspect of which is thrift. I just got one back from having its frayed collar turned and resewn. I was told recently that BB will still have your collars turned if you bring in your shirt.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> I've seen this so much over my lifetime that I'm not really sure that I was aware that there was a "rule" saying that you weren't supposed to do it until I read it here. Actually if there is anything in this photo that I don't like in retrospect, it's those butt ugly eyeglasses. :icon_smile:
> 
> Cruiser


The glasses are the best part! I'd wear those in a heartbeat. My wire frames, combined with too-long hair, make me look like somebody's lesbian grandmother.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Patrick06790 said:


> The glasses are the best part! I'd wear those in a heartbeat. My wire frames, combined with too-long hair, make me look like somebody's lesbian grandmother.


But an extremely well-dressed grandmother she would be!!


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Cruiser said:


> I've seen this so much over my lifetime that I'm not really sure that I was aware that there was a "rule" saying that you weren't supposed to do it until I read it here.
> 
> Cruiser


You're being kind: Of course there's no such "rule." This is the barmiest thread since the "mechanical-watch" thread. And I say this as one who got bored w/ buttondowns a few years back and pretty much quit wearing them, tho' I still have my BB OCBDs on hand for when the rare mood does strike me.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> You're being kind: Of course there's no such "rule." This is the barmiest thread since the "mechanical-watch" thread.


+1 Agreed 100%.

...and the infamous inane 'black suit' thread as well.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

MikeDT said:


> +1 Agreed 100%.
> 
> ...and the infamous inane 'black suit' thread as well.


Yeah, that one was pretty whack, too.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I got bored with buttondowns and switched to plain collars, maybe in the 90s, then I got bored with pcs and switched back to bds....


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## roman totale XVII (Sep 18, 2009)

> My wire frames, combined with too-long hair, make me look like somebody's lesbian grandmother.


:icon_hailthee:

2011 is young, but that might be the quote of the year on the internets...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Finian McLonergan said:


> OCBD with tie. Quintessentially breezy American look. Not for me (with a suit) but it's a completely established style.


Those shirts may actually be pinpoint or even broadcloth, which go better with a plain or striped suit. I've grown to believe that actual _oxford cloth _button-downs are best paired with sport coats or more casual suits.

Anyways, I prefer double breasted or pinstriped suits with other collars. Read: PREFER. I'm not calling those men badly dressed by any stretch. However, they are advanced in the art of dressing and know how to carry it off.



David Reeves said:


> wear a button down with an ascot or with a knitted tie and sport coat. I don't like them worn with suits and ties.


What a European attitude. :tongue2:



Patrick06790 said:


> The glasses are the best part! I'd wear those in a heartbeat. My wire frames, combined with too-long hair, make me look like somebody's lesbian grandmother.


Patrick, you are too funny sometimes.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

I am surprised that anyone would consider having their computer repaired by the guy on the left with the BD, or taking advice from the man on the right with the spread collar. Don't you guys realize that neither of them is sporting a pocket square? Only a slight degree above forgetting to put your pants on.


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## BamaCPA (Jan 19, 2008)

I too made this post and got busy with end of year tax planning and beginning of year business cycles but - wow - quite the mess I made here, and absolutely unintentional. 

I know there isn't an absolute for anything, but being the right brained person I am, I always look for a set of rules to start out with and then I can deviate from them as needed. But I do like to have a certain base layer of etiquette to go from. I had just read/heard on several occasions that the buttons on the button-down lent the shirt to more sport attire and less of a mandate to have to wear a tie. Whereas, the pinpoint or spread collar would advise a tie be worn more times than not. 

And BTW - I also mostly adhere to the "no black suits for business attire" rule too - while I'm being honest . Thanks for all the input.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You mean point collar. Pinpoint is a type of fabric.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Jovan said:


> Those shirts may actually be pinpoint or even broadcloth, which go better with a plain or striped suit. I've grown to believe that actual _oxford cloth _button-downs are best paired with sport coats or more casual suits.


Probably so, and it tallies with my opinion that those choosing this style in the forties and early fifties were seeking an alternative to the then very prevalent use of collar pins/bars/tabs.

My own observations based on dealing with US executives over the years have led me to the conclusion that the DB is seen as a rather "European" style of suit. This is very much the case with executives from Middle America, less so perhaps with those on either seaboard. And since the OCBD with tie look is seen as a traditional American style of dress I can well understand how nowadays, mixing the two would raise eyebrows. However, these are just my experiences and may not be representative.

Anyway, here's another fine American exponent of the button-down with tie, from 1947:


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## BamaCPA (Jan 19, 2008)

Affirmative.



Jovan said:


> You mean point collar. Pinpoint is a type of fabric.


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