# European dueling clubs



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I read in a 35 year old book, somewhat tongue in cheek I believe, about German university students running around in dueling clubs. There were passages at length about these well off kids at university who were joining dueling clubs, somewhat like American students joined fraternities, and would get drunk and fight with knives untill one got a dueling scar on thier face, or something like that.

Did/does this actually happen, or was that 200 years ago when such nighttime recreation was popular?


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## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

I read several stories about the duelling clubs in Germany, apparently verfied as true. These clubs were in existence up until the World War I period. I believe the duels were fought not only with knives, but with sabres as well. There's more than one instance cited in the biographies of German Army officers of WWI and WWII.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Sounds like the current fad of white collar fight clubs.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

There were many books on the rules and etiquette of dueling which make fascinating reading. Many cultures forego actual physical combat with rituallised confrontations of words. DougZ and my recent Maori posting as example, and rap music is actually an offshoot of african verbal duels. My personal favourite is the Peurto Rican duel. The combatant's right arms are lashed together at the wrist and cocked handguns placed in each. The still free left arms are filled with a switchblade. The two opponents are then placed in a small, closet sized room, the 10 count given at which time the light is extinquished.- most often followed by both duelists!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Kav said:


> There were many books on the rules and etiquette of dueling which make fascinating reading. Many cultures forego actual physical combat with rituallised confrontations of words. DougZ and my recent Maori posting as example, and rap music is actually an offshoot of african verbal duels.


This exists in ancient European culture also. In the poems still known in Old English, the term is "flyghting" I believe. Since it has been 15 years since I paid much scholarly attention to Beowulf and the like, that term might not be quite correct. However, the concept was that the warriors would speak load and boastful words to the enemies, basically working themselves up to fighting through this speech. I am wondering if Tolkien's book/essay on Beowulf might have the term I am trying to remember.

Warmest regards


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Digging through my book collection and hearing dire creaking sounds of structural collapse as I pull keystone volumes out from the shelves. I remember the same reference.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

This is not so outdated as the above posts might lead you to believe. I know of at least two extant dueling societies in Heidelberg, also in Tubingen, and at least four in Prague, CZ.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Rule #1 about Dueling Clubs is you do not talk about Dueling Clubs.


Sorry, had to be said.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

rip said:


> This is not so outdated as the above posts might lead you to believe. I know of at least two extant dueling societies in Heidelberg, also in Tubingen, and at least four in Prague, CZ.


Are you at liberty to speak to what the character of these societies is?

Are they university students or older men? Are they clandestine, secret societies or relatively open? Are they upper class or relatively class-less? Are they shrouded in mystery like the Skull & Bones at Yale?

Found this online:

The Mensuren (German students duels) above referred to are frequently misunderstood. They bear little resemblance, save in form, to the duel a outra-nce, and should rather be considered in the light of athletic games, in which the overflow of high animal spirits in young Germany finds its outlet. These combats are indulged in principally by picked representatives of the corps (recognized clubs), and according to the position and value of the Sc/zmisse (cuts which have landed) points are awarded to either side. Formerly these so-called duels could be openly indulged in at most universities without let or hindrance. Gradually, however, the academic authorities took cognizance of the illegality of the practice, and in many cases inflicted punishment for the offence. Nowadays, owing to the decision of the supreme court reserving to the common law tribunals the power to deal with such cases, the governing bodies at the universities have only a disciplinary control, which is exercised at the various seats of learning in various degrees:

in some the practice is silently tolerated, or at most visitedby reprimand; in others, again, by relegation or carcerwith the result that the students of one university frequently visit another, in order to be able to fight out their battles under less rigorous surveillance.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

> Many cultures forego actual physical combat with rituallised confrontations of words


Sounds like a final jeopardy question...

"What is Chuck and Kabbaz after three drinks" would be the answer methinx...


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> Are they university students or older men? Are they clandestine, secret societies or relatively open? Are they upper class or relatively class-less? Are they shrouded in mystery like the Skull & Bones at Yale?


The little I know about these societies has them pretty open, more or less restricted to Western Germany, Southern Germany and Austria, and still rather heavily politically linked to right-wing movements (less so than they used to be, one presumes). I could be wrong, though.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

There are lots of references to duelling and duelling scars in German novels, e.g. Thomas Mann, often associated with officer cadets (Junkers) in military academies. The German fondness for duelling (pre-WWI) is mocked in the Powell and Pressburger movie "The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp".

I think the persistence of duelling and duelling clubs in Europe until relatively recently was a result of the importance attached to duelling as an obligation to defend one's honour in aristocratic circles, which lived on as a military tradition, certainly up to WWI.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> Are you at liberty to speak to what the character of these societies is?
> 
> Are they university students or older men? Are they clandestine, secret societies or relatively open? Are they upper class or relatively class-less? Are they shrouded in mystery like the Skull & Bones at Yale?
> 
> ...


Although the societies are in the universities, there are a number of hangers-on from outside; the core of the societies tend to be upper-class, the hangers-on less so, but all seem to be extremely right wing, even so far as to be attached to some of the neo-nazi groups which are "enjoying" quite a resurgence, particularly in eastern Europe. Of course, they aren't listed in the university's "Guide to Student Activities", but while they don't seem to be particularly secret (although there might well be a clandestine wing, of which I have no information), neither are they open to just anyone. The membership seems to be pretty well vetted.


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## DOn_Gotti (May 22, 2006)

Gentlemen, these so called "dueling clubs" clubs your're speaking of are the German form of your American fraternities, in fact your kind of "greek" frat is somehow based on our "Studentenverbindungen".
A big amount of these "clubs" request to fight a "Mensur" from their members, it's a special kind of fencing. The Mensur is not a duel, more a kind of sport, nobody has any risk of death or even dangerous injuries, the only thing that can happen is a little scar on the left side of your cheek or your forehead, if you're right handed or on the right, if your lef handed.
Not every "Studentenverbindung" is fencing "Mensurten", for example the Catholic fraternities aren't allowed to do, also there are some "clubs" who let their members decide if they want to fence or not, and let me tell you, most of them decide to do.
Most of the images shown in the web, which claim to show persons with dueling scars are fakes, as I can assure you, I've senn enough of them myself, don't believe in rumors.
Also it is not true, that all "Studentenverbindungen" are linked to the right wing political movement, most of the are conservative and traditional but they stand for tolerance, human rights and democracy and have always fought for these things in times past, when Germany was seperated in a lot of small states with counts and kings and all this kind of feudalism.
This thread shows how the lack of knowing better mixed with prejudice

Here is an interessting link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensur

If you are interessted I'll tell more.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

I recently met a bloke involved in re-enactment who had fought the Battle of Hastings a number of times, for both sides. He told me of a Russian group that went to England to 'play' and were offended when told they could not use their live blades. Apparently that is all they had used at home.

I'm picking they were good at parrying.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I seem to recall reading in Otto Skorzeny's memoirs that Hitler outlawed the duelling fraternities in Germany as elitist and contrary to the spirit of the New Germany. Skorzeny, who had such prominent duelling scars he was often referred to as "Scarface," implored Hitler to reconsider, but I don't know whether he did. These societies had a revival in postwar Germany and got quite a bit of publicity in the later '50s and early '60s. Don't know anything much about their status today. Ironical if they are accused of Neo-Nazi leanings when Hitler outlawed them!

I always thought they sounded kind of neat and appealing...at least at the time when I was in my post-adolescence. I gather they would treat the saber cuts to make the scars more visible when they healed.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> Ironical if they are accused of Neo-Nazi leanings when Hitler outlawed them!


They are accused of "right-wing" or "extreme right-wing" leanings, not necessarily neo-nazi ones.


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## DOn_Gotti (May 22, 2006)

Which is totally crap, most of them are conservativ, but do not belong to the "right-wing" leanings, these are just a few clubs, who give the majority of decent "Verbindungen" a bad name.

@JLibourel
Otto Skorzeny was a member of a "Burschenschaft" in Austria, and Austrian "clubs" always fenced much more, than German.
For example Skorzeny fought ten "Mensuren", today this would be an enormous amount of fights, but back then it was quite common.
Also it is uncommon for more than 80 years to treat the cuts with hair or salt to make the more visible, today somebody is proud to have no scars, because this really show, that your are good in academic fencing, scars just show, that you made mistakes and didn't block right.

To give you some better examples of the scars, Gemans call them "Schmiss" I will show some pictures:

This is Georg Diederichs, he was a politician of the SPD (a German "left-wing" party) in the 1950s, you can see a typical "Schmiss" on his right cheek near his nose.

www.stadtarchiv.goettingen.de/bilder/diederichs.jpg

This is the German politician Klaus Ernst, you can see his "Schmiss" on the right side of his chin.

Below you see popular German TV-judge Ulrich Wetzel, you can see his to scars on the left side of his face, one near his mouth an one on the chin.


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

rip said:


> Although the societies are in the universities, there are a number of hangers-on from outside; the core of the societies tend to be upper-class, the hangers-on less so, but all seem to be extremely right wing, even so far as to be attached to some of the neo-nazi groups which are *"enjoying" quite a resurgence, particularly in eastern Europe*. Of course, they aren't listed in the university's "Guide to Student Activities", but while they don't seem to be particularly secret (although there might well be a clandestine wing, of which I have no information), neither are they open to just anyone. The membership seems to be pretty well vetted.


Agreed.

Poland looks worrying.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Good afternoon.

Have just seen this thread and thought I might contribute a little bit.



crazyquik said:


> Are you at liberty to speak to what the character of these societies is?
> 
> Are they university students or older men? Are they clandestine, secret societies or relatively open? Are they upper class or relatively class-less? Are they shrouded in mystery like the Skull & Bones at Yale?


No mystery, young students as active members and university alumni as senior members. We are not secret but we are not perfectly open as well - preserving tradition (which is the main and lasting objective of German fraternities) requires a certain degree of discretion.

Most of our starting members are from the middle and upper middle class. of course, most of our senior members have succeeded to work their way into the upper class. ;-)



crazyquik said:


> The Mensuren (German students duels) above referred to are frequently misunderstood. They bear little resemblance, save in form, to the duel a outra-nce, and should rather be considered in the light of athletic games.


I can confirm that. The homepage of my fraternity () states the following about fencing (which is mandatory):



L! Thuringia said:


> As fencing is a mandatory membership prerequisite, all our members are obliged to complete at least three duels ("Mensuren") during the time of their active membership. A _Mensur_ is a duel of academic fencing which is characterised by tight rules and conducted with the member of another fraternity. A framework of rules, protection glasses and additional protective measures minimize the probability of serious injuries.
> 
> The concern of a _Mensur_ is not winning or losing, but to overcome one's fear and to demonstrate one's willingness to stand up for the fraternity. As the fraternity brother enters a significant risk for the community, the _Mensur_ is an apparent and manifest expression of the lifelong bond between the fraternity members.


If you are frightfully interested, you might convince me of sharing one or two pictures of me after these duels. But I certainly will not do this in public, as they might affect the one or other fellow member with a weak stomach.

All the best,
A.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Sorry, forgot to write one thing: please do not think of the mandatory-fencing German fraternities as an isolated, peripheral social phenomenon. I estimate that the four largest mandatory-fencing fraternity federations have maybe 50,000 to 70,000 members, so you could rather compare them to the free masons in Anglo-American countries.


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## Hanseat (Nov 20, 2004)

I don't mean to bring this back without purpose, but I found a nice article about studentcorps in Germany in the FT:

https://www.jonathan-green.com/portf_dueling.html

You have to understand this article cum grano salis, but mostly it holds true.

The political spectra vary (sometimes vastly) between the different sorts of Verbindungen (which literally just means 'connections'): While Corps (such as the one I'm a member of) are generally very tolerant on issues such as politics and race (we have non-german 'brothers' as well, unlike Burschenschaften), some (not all) Burschenschaften really create the bad reputation the Verbindungen have.


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