# Why skinny trouser legs suck



## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

(Originally posted here and discussed here.)

The guy on the left is wearing trousers in the current fashion. He probably bought pants that were reviewed as "well-fitting" and then paid for some more "slimming" by a tailor. His trousers are, as a direct result, a lumpy, grabby, twisty, wrinkly mess.

The man on the right, Lucianno Barbera, knows what he is doing, and has properly-fitting trousers that fall vertically from the waist in straight lines along the creases.

I am a great believer that aesthetics are subjective and personal, but I have a VERY hard time seeing how the silhouette offered on the left can be considered even close to as good-looking as the one on the right. This seems like an AMC Gremlin versus Auburn Boattail Speedster grade decision.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

I'm guessing one has to put on/take off those trousers (lift side of pic) in the light, sitting down. Looks like a lot of work.


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## AncientMadder (Apr 21, 2011)

The pants wouldn't look as bad if they were hemmed to no break, which pants that slim and tapered call for.

I favor Barbera's look too, but I don't think the other guy would looks so terrible if he fixed the length. (While he's at it, he should change that shirt and tie combo.)


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

AncientMadder said:


> The pants wouldn't look as bad if they were hemmed to no break, which pants that slim and tapered call for.
> 
> I favor Barbera's look too, but I don't think the other guy would looks so terrible if he fixed the length. (While he's at it, he should change that shirt and tie combo.)


Yeah, but that's kinda like saying if we had any ham we could have ham and eggs, if we just had some eggs. I agree the skinny look can be sort of okay, but on most men it would take a *lot *more expert tailoring than they'll have done


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

I agree, Cuffdaddy. The lower button stance of Barbera's blazer also creates a visual line where the pants and the coat meet at his natural waist.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Hemmed with no break; having an opening that allows it to fall properly (even once slimmed); may a jacket that fit properly (too snug at waist, too short [IMO], and based on the wrinkling, sleeves too slim).

I, for one, would be embarrassed to look like that next to Mr. Barbera.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

AncientMadder said:


> The pants wouldn't look as bad if they were hemmed to no break, which pants that slim and tapered call for.


I have to disagree. The hemming is the least of the problem. Hell, those pants could have footie-pajama bottoms and that would still be the least of the offense. The stuff from mid-shin up is far worse than anything touching the shoe.


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## Mox (May 30, 2012)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> a jacket that fit properly (too snug at waist, too short [IMO], and based on the wrinkling, sleeves too slim).


It looks like he's wearing one of those storage bags that you attach to a vacuum to suck all the air out. At least that's what I thought of when I looked at the jacket.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

As long as we're just ripping on everything the guy is wearing (he's probably a good human being, just misguided by current fashion advice), it looks like those sleeves were pressed by Rand McNally. (Does that make any sense these days? God, I'm getting old.)


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> it looks like those sleeves were pressed by Rand McNally. (Does that make any sense these days? God, I'm getting old.)


Ehh, I'm a (pretty) young guy, and know they're a publisher, but don't get the correlation.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

RMcN used to make the kind of maps that fold up, accordion-style. Nobody uses those anymore.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> RMcN used to make the kind of maps that fold up, accordion-style. Nobody uses those anymore.


OHHHHHHHHH........Yea, I know what those are lol. Now I get the joke, and it's pretty funny.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Not only do they look bad but skinny trousers have got to be uncomfortable, especially if you've got any muscle on your legs at all. If you cycle, swim, walk/run distances or do squats you're going to be miserable in skinny pants. The ill-advised 'good person' is probably a desk jockey.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

CuffDaddy said:


> (Originally posted here and discussed here.)
> 
> The guy on the left is wearing trousers in the current fashion. He probably bought pants that were reviewed as "well-fitting" and then paid for some more "slimming" by a tailor. His trousers are, as a direct result, a lumpy, grabby, twisty, wrinkly mess.
> 
> ...


Well done! :thumbs-up:

And, IMO, 100% correct!


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

Guys, you have to back down on this. I need skinny trouser legs to remain in fashion, because with my chicken legs (relative to my waist size) they fit me _almost_ like Barbera's do there. If the pendulum swings the other way, I'll look like I'm in _Stop Making Sense._


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

YR, a mannequin with no legs can wear Barbera's trousers. Below the hips, trousers should make only the most incidental and fleeting of contact with the legs - *it doesn't matter how little leg there is not being touched*!


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## Virginia-Style (Oct 21, 2010)

slightly on topic - if you watch any PGA Tour golf most of the players are wearing horrible looking pants. I cant imagine being paid to wear pants that look ill fitting and in desperate need of a good pressing!


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2012)

That's an interesting picture. The gent on the right is very well dressed but it is a bit staid and conservative for my taste and not everyone is happy dressing that conservatively. For me the problem with the chap on the left is that the crotch on the trousers looks like is too low so it looks like he's wearing a nappy and he's quite bulky above the waist so his top and bottom halfs look out of proportion.

I certainly don't have a problem with men wearing tighter trousers than would classically be acceptable, you just need to have the figure for it.


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## Wales (Jun 9, 2012)

Barbera looks sharp as always. The gent on the left is just trying WAY too hard to be hip, and unfortunately, the result for him is looking like the court jester.


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

Mox said:


> It looks like he's wearing one of those storage bags that you attach to a vacuum to suck all the air out.


The way things are going out there, you may have just identified the next big look...


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

matthelliwell said:


> That's an interesting picture. The gent on the right is very well dressed but it is a bit staid and conservative for my taste and not everyone is happy dressing that conservatively.


No problem. Change the colors. Change the details on the clothing. Do not f*ck up the fit in an effort to avoid being "conservative."



> For me the problem with the chap on the left is that the crotch on the trousers looks like is too low so it looks like he's wearing a nappy


Really? _Really?_ Look at all the crap going on around the knees and mid-thighs... and mid-calf, for that matter. The pants are just a total mess. And the reason is that they are too skinny to fall straight down.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I find the posts of a couple of apologists in this thread pretty interesting. They seem to take the view that this is just poor execution of a good idea. But the truth is that this is how skinny fits actually look in the real world. Men can fool themselves into thinking that skinny trousers look OK when they gaze into the mirror in the morning, but after a day of sitting, walking, etc., this is how they look. This isn't a good idea poorly executed... this is just a poor idea.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

matthelliwell said:


> ......very well dressed but it is a bit staid and conservative for my taste and not everyone is happy dressing that conservatively. .......


You say conservative as if it's a bad thing! :icon_scratch: + :smile:


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> No problem. Change the colors. Change the details on the clothing. Do not f*ck up the fit in an effort to avoid being "conservative."


True, though I still hold that the cut and fit are conservative as well as the colours.



CuffDaddy said:


> Really? _Really?_ Look at all the crap going on around the knees and mid-thighs... and mid-calf, for that matter. The pants are just a total mess. And the reason is that they are too skinny to fall straight down.


Yes, really, really really! I appreciate I'm probably in a minority of one with that opinion though :icon_smile: And I do think the outfit would look better on him if he was a bit skinnier.

My over all view of the trend for short tight jackets and narrow trousers is that I wouldn't wear them myself but I welcome seeing suits and jackets as fashion items. We should be welcoming it, subverting it, picking out elements that suit us and using them in our own clothes, being pleased that fewer people are wearing jeans and t-shirts. Instead we poo-poo their clothes, tell them they are doing it wrong and say they should be dressing like their grandfather did as that's the only proper way to dress and everything else is wrong.

Suit styles and cuts have always changed over time and I think we're in danger of trying to freeze a particular style and say this is right, everything else is wrong.

Whoops, that almost turned into a rant :redface:. I'd better shut up and do some work.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

matthelliwell said:


> .....we poo-poo their clothes, tell them they are doing it wrong and say they should be dressing like their grandfather did as that's the only proper way to dress and everything else is wrong.


*Devil's advocacy:* In a hundred year's time men of style and substance will, doubtless, continue to dress as our fellow forum members tend to prescribe.

It is unlikely that the shrunken suit will still be seen abroad upon the backs of males in even a hundred days time.

So; which then might be the preferred choice as 'proper'?

:biggrin2:


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## Mox (May 30, 2012)

bluesman said:


> The way things are going out there, you may have just identified the next big look...


"Turn even the saddest of sack suits into a modern, waist-hugging trend-setter with the Vacu-Fit System! This clear vinyl outer layer will suck away years of outdated fashion and bring your entire wardrobe into the modern era! Buy now at only $59.99! (Vacuum not included)"

(Ok, now I'm scaring myself...)


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

matthelliwell said:


> My over all view of the trend for short tight jackets and narrow trousers is that I wouldn't wear them myself but I welcome seeing suits and jackets as fashion items. We should be welcoming it, subverting it, picking out elements that suit us and using them in our own clothes, being pleased that fewer people are wearing jeans and t-shirts. Instead we poo-poo their clothes, tell them they are doing it wrong and say they should be dressing like their grandfather did as that's the only proper way to dress and everything else is wrong.
> 
> Suit styles and cuts have always changed over time and I think we're in danger of trying to freeze a particular style and say this is right, everything else is wrong.


I'm sympathetic to the core of your view (see any of my many crusades against false "rules" that would constrain choices), but I think it's misguided here. Although there is room for personal preference in many issues of fit, certain aspects of it have an optimal arrangement. Trousers hanging straight is one of those. They make a man look taller, they are more comfortable, etc. It's not best because it's traditional; it has _become_ traditional because it is best.

Moreover, we live in a world where it is simply not affordable for any but the very richest man to have _every_ garment in his wardrobe custom-made. I'm fortunate to be able to have my suits (and, often, sportcoats) made for me, but casual trousers must be found OTR for the good of my daughter's college fund. That means that I have to live with the vagaries of fashion. Right now, it is virtually impossible for me to find trousers because the fashionable (non-)fit has become so extreme and ubiquitous. It's all very well to say that every man is entitled to his opinion, but in a democracy I'm stuck with his opinion if it becomes too popular. Likewise, it's all very well to say that every man is entitled to his own preference in fit, but in a mass-market retail world, I'm stuck with his preference if it becomes too popular.

So: Those pants are *wrong*. And it matters.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

To my eye, Mr Barbera's trousers _are_ stylishly trim, and perfectly in tune with current fashion; the other gent's will never be fashionable.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Oh, they're fashionable all right. They just aren't of good style!


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## upthewazzu (Nov 3, 2011)

This is definitely an egregious example, not the norm as I see it. Slimmer pants look cleaner on a body type such as mine, and they keep the straight lines and silhouette that you talk about. Skinny, however, never looks right and tends to make the wearer look either emaciated or feminine.


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## bluesman (Aug 17, 2009)

Mox said:


> "Turn even the saddest of sack suits into a modern, waist-hugging trend-setter with the Vacu-Fit System! This clear vinyl outer layer will suck away years of outdated fashion and bring your entire wardrobe into the modern era! Buy now at only $59.99! (Vacuum not included)"


Damn, that's good! Will you do bespoke or stick to "off the sack"?


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## Mox (May 30, 2012)

bluesman said:


> Damn, that's good! Will you do bespoke or stick to "off the sack"?


*One size fits all. Made in Blefuscu. Actual mileage may vary.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Mox said:


> Buy now at only $59.99! (Vacuum not included)


I'm waiting for it to go on sale at JAB for $9.99!

Well done! :thumbs-up:


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

matthelliwell said:


> That's an interesting picture. The gent on the right is very well dressed but it is a bit staid and conservative for my taste and not everyone is happy dressing that conservatively. For me the problem with the chap on the left is that the crotch on the trousers looks like is too low so it looks like he's wearing a nappy and he's quite bulky above the waist so his top and bottom halfs look out of proportion.
> 
> I certainly don't have a problem with men wearing tighter trousers than would classically be acceptable, you just need to have the figure for it.


I'm aware that each succeeding generation feels the need to look different from that which proceeded it. (A seemingly natural phenomenon that the fashion industry greatly encourages!) But sometimes that different, for lack of a better term, sucks. And it's time to turn the page. That time is now.


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## Mox (May 30, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> I'm aware that each succeeding generation feels the need to look different from that which proceeded it. (A seemingly natural phenomenon that the fashion industry greatly encourages!) But sometimes that different, for lack of a better term, sucks. And it's time to turn the page. That time is now.


I think this is where the idea of "classic" comes into play again. I really like the way you gentlemen describe it: timeless. At times it may be conservative, and at times in fashion, but it's never out of fashion.

I'm personally am not a follower of TRAD. It makes me think of something my grandfather would wear. That's not a bad thing at all, but it doesn't fit my personal style. It's a fashion of a time before my own.

But I fall squarely into the classic category. Wide lapels are in. No wait, now narrow ones. Never mind all that-give me ones that fall in the middle and I'll be happy. Baggy pants... skinny pants... bah, give me something that fits. I've always felt this way, even when I was younger. I don't know if the term is already taken, but "modern conservative" works well for me. There are elements that change over time, as your thread about the Jazz Age Party shows, married with a median line that traces through these fads.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> I'm aware that each succeeding generation feels the need to look different from that which proceeded it. (A seemingly natural phenomenon that the fashion industry greatly encourages!) But sometimes that different, for lack of a better term, sucks. And it's time to turn the page. That time is now.


Brilliance.


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## Big T (Jun 25, 2010)

And I love getting close to the age of when going on a diet simply means moving up one pants size.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2012)

Shaver said:


> You say conservative as if it's a bad thing! :icon_scratch: + :smile:


No, not at all. Just that not being conservative is also fine and dandy.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2012)

Shaver said:


> *Devil's advocacy:* In a hundred year's time men of style and substance will, doubtless, continue to dress as our fellow forum members tend to prescribe.


May be. I tend to view this look for skinny tight trousers and jackets as just part of the normal flow of fashion. You see somewhat extreme versions like in the picture but that will filter down to the more normal clothes everyone else wears. When someone looks back in 100 years, I think suits of this decade will have a recognisable style in the same way that you can identify suits from different periods in the 20th century - narrower trousers, shorter jacket, smaller shoulders etc.

On the plus side of all this, my son recently bought a couple of suits. The styling isn't extreme but they are definitely what you'd describe as contemporary styling. A couple of years ago, there is no way he would have bought a suit but now its seen as a fashion item again, he's starting to find that he enjoys wearing them.

So skinny trousers and jackets have saved the suit from a slow decline and created a new generation of suit wearers:icon_cheers:. Ok, I exaggerate, but I'm sure you get my point.


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## jankdc (Jul 7, 2012)

Shaver said:


> *Devil's advocacy:* In a hundred year's time men of style and substance will, doubtless, continue to dress as our fellow forum members tend to prescribe.
> 
> It is unlikely that the shrunken suit will still be seen abroad upon the backs of males in even a hundred days time.
> 
> ...


Here is a link to what men's suits looked like 100 years ago: https://www.costumegallery.com/1910/Men/Suits/Suits.htm

More information is here: https://www.costumegallery.com/1910/Men/Suits/


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## jankdc (Jul 7, 2012)

jankdc said:


> Here is a link to what men's suits looked like 100 years ago: https://www.costumegallery.com/1910/Men/Suits/Suits.htm
> 
> More information is here: https://www.costumegallery.com/1910/Men/Suits/


From 90 years ago: https://www.costumegallery.com/1923/Men/


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

jankdc said:


> From 90 years ago: https://www.costumegallery.com/1923/Men/


Thanks jankdc; from that which I can access it looks 'just-so' to me. :icon_smile:


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Has Mr Barbera deliberately splayed the points of his shirt collar over the lapels of his jacket?

Think he would have been smarter with a tie!

PS just striking a blow for the underdog!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Bandit44 said:


> I agree, Cuffdaddy. The lower button stance of Barbera's blazer also creates a visual line where the pants and the coat meet at his natural waist.


Yeah.


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## pusso (May 5, 2009)

I don't work due to serious ill health, so I live in jeans.

However I prefer a classic look so I wear slim straight bespoke jeans, with just a pair of off the peg skinny jeans for when theyre being washed.
I'm planning another bespoke pair so the skinnies will just be for emergency use.


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## junjie (Aug 21, 2012)

Agree that the man on the right definitely looks better than the other. Skinny trousers can work but like with most things, it's not just universal. You have to find the right fit for you and for the occasion.

"So skinny trousers and jackets have saved the suit from a slow decline and created a new generation of suit wearers:icon_cheers:. Ok, I exaggerate, but I'm sure you get my point." -- This is true!

I think skinny jeans are a much better concept than going skinny with these types of trousers. Not really a fan of left man's whole getup here. Slim fit jeans though, much as they are a fad, can actually look good, flattering and lift an outfit. I got a new pair of denims recently from Desigual on this local store, and they are my new favourites. I do wear it with a smart jacket sometimes to have the charm of a suit (on the ladies) but the casualness for a night out. Makes you look younger. Gotta get in with the cool kids yknow.. Sorta expands the possibilities of where you can wear certain shirts, when you pair it with skinnies. That's what I think at least.


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## Malabar (Nov 9, 2012)

I think the skinny items - trousers, shirts, or coats - fits only to very thin young men, and when athletic man after 30 wear it, it`s a desperate attempt to look younger and attractive. On the starting picture everybody can see the result of this attempt.


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## solipsism (Oct 13, 2012)

I feel the real issue isn't the wrinkling so much as it is the effect it has on the comparative silhouette of the upper and lower body. A good tailor should be able to make trousers that conform as closely as you like to your body without having the sort of wrinkling and lumpiness as those on the chap on the left do (they would in all likelihood protest whilst doing so, but, regardless...), but then - at least when worn with a jacket - you'd have the comparatively looser lines on your torso and then the tight, tapering lines on your legs. In my opinion, it simply looks strange, especially from the side. I recognize the trend in jackets is tighter these days as well, but being an outer garment, they'll never be as form fitting as you might tailor a shirt or trousers to be, leaving you looking heftier on top and tapered to the point of falling over on the bottom.


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## Nick888 (Mar 8, 2012)

I feel like the "skinny" look of the trousers should be reserved for body types that are slimmer that most. Stocky body types in skinny trousers would just be unflattering.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Malabar said:


> I think the skinny items - trousers, shirts, or coats - fits only to very thin young men, and when athletic man after 30 wear it, it`s a desperate attempt to look younger and attractive. On the starting picture everybody can see the result of this attempt.


+1

Well said.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Recently I went to a classical concert where the pianist was amazing. I mean this guy taught at Juilliard and everything and couldn't be older than 30. However, he could have used some help in the wardrobe department. The skinny suit he was wearing didn't do him many favours. The trousers, after sitting and playing for a prolonged period, had all but lost their crease, crotch spiders galore, bagged out in the knee, and stayed stuck there so that it exposed about four inches of sock when he stood up and took his bow. Not so sleek and trim after all if you're anything but a mannequin.

It was a black suit, too. :icon_smile_big:


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Jovan said:


> Recently I went to a classical concert where the pianist was amazing. I mean this guy taught at Juilliard and everything and couldn't be older than 30. However, he could have used some help in the wardrobe department. The skinny suit he was wearing didn't do him many favours. The trousers, after sitting and playing for a prolonged period, had all but lost their crease, crotch spiders galore, bagged out in the knee, and stayed stuck there so that it exposed about four inches of sock when he stood up and took his bow. Not so sleek and trim after all if you're anything but a mannequin.
> 
> It was a black suit, too. :icon_smile_big:


Not his fault. Most men need advice and what little they get is pretty awful. He is probably a victim of a well-meaning girlfriend and an incompetent salesman.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Well his fault to a certain extent..but also, some men just don't care about clothing. Not a bad thing either, some things are more important--unless you are expected to dress in a certain way


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## questioner (Jul 25, 2012)

skinny pants (and other type of clothes) works well only in certain type of body. So it's not for all.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

questioner said:


> skinny pants (and other type of clothes) works well only on women. So it's not for people with testes.


There, fixed that for you.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Skinny does seem a tad uncomfortable..

One thing I don't quite understand is why grown men react so strongly to certain types of clothes...If it is objectively a bad style of clothing then why care? You look even better dressed and more sophisticated in comparison. 

Sometimes I think such strong objections come from insecurity, not to say cuffdaddy is particularly invested in bashing skinny clothes--he might be saying these things humorously and not care what people do


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Ivanov said:


> Skinny does seem a tad uncomfortable..
> 
> One thing I don't quite understand is why grown men react so strongly to certain types of clothes...If it is objectively a bad style of clothing then why care? You look even better dressed and more sophisticated in comparison.
> 
> Sometimes I think such strong objections come from insecurity, not to say cuffdaddy is particularly invested in bashing skinny clothes--he might be saying these things humorously and not care what people do


I care because I have not yet reached the point where I can have ALL of my trousers made bespoke. So I am dependent on retailers to some extent. And retailers carry what people will buy.

A marketplace is a democracy where dollars are votes. I have to live with the government determined by the votes of my fellow citizens, and I have to live with the inventory determined by the dollar-votes of my fellow consumers. If I don't like the choices my fellow citizens are making, I will try to speak out and change their minds. If I don't like the choices my fellow consumers are making, I will speak out and try to change their minds.


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## upthewazzu (Nov 3, 2011)

CuffDaddy said:


> I care because I have not yet reached the point where I can have ALL of my trousers made bespoke. So I am dependent on retailers to some extent. And retailers carry what people will buy.
> 
> A marketplace is a democracy where dollars are votes. I have to live with the government determined by the votes of my fellow citizens, and I have to live with the inventory determined by the dollar-votes of my fellow consumers. If I don't like the choices my fellow citizens are making, I will try to speak out and change their minds. If I don't like the choices my fellow consumers are making, I will speak out and try to change their minds.


I can 100% guarantee that at least one store in the great city of Atlanta carries what you are looking for.

Geesh, talk about overreaction of the century.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

upthewazzu said:


> I can 100% guarantee that at least one store in the great city of Atlanta carries what you are looking for.


What happens when I cash in on the guarantee? You pay my tailor to make me what I want?


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> I care because I have not yet reached the point where I can have ALL of my trousers made bespoke. So I am dependent on retailers to some extent. And retailers carry what people will buy.
> 
> A marketplace is a democracy where dollars are votes. I have to live with the government determined by the votes of my fellow citizens, and I have to live with the inventory determined by the dollar-votes of my fellow consumers. If I don't like the choices my fellow citizens are making, I will try to speak out and change their minds. If I don't like the choices my fellow consumers are making, I will speak out and try to change their minds.


Do you fancy yourself a taste maker? The market and people's minds are not as pliable as you think, you certainly have little influence on the production of skinny pants.

But this discussion is academic since classic fit is not hard to find...

Cuffdaddy, are you insecure about your wardrobe? Not all your trousers are bespoke--certainly sounds like you are aspiring to reach something. I bet cuffdaddy wears skinny pants at home:tongue2:


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Ivanov said:


> Cuffdaddy, are you insecure about your wardrobe? Not all your trousers are bespoke--certainly sounds like you are aspiring to reach something. I bet cuffdaddy wears skinny pants at home


Yes, I'm aspiring to have trousers that fit.

And you would lose that bet.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Most people can simply find their approximate size RTW and then have it tailored...you must be rotund?

I wear bespoke too but if I can find RTW then I am just as happy.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

questioner said:


> skinny pants (and other type of clothes) works well only on women. So it's not for people with testes.





CuffDaddy said:


> There, fixed that for you.


you just made my day... thank you CuffDaddy :icon_hailthee:


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Why would that make your day?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Ivanov said:


> Most people can simply find their approximate size RTW and then have it tailored...


Have you got a tailor who can add rise to trousers? And turn flat-fronts into pleats? Those are not size issues.

BTW, finding OTR trousers that interested me was no problem 5-6 years ago.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Ivanov said:


> But this discussion is academic since classic fit is not hard to find...


Missed this. This is false. Classic fit is quite hard to find at the moment. BB has dropped the rise and skinnied the legs of Madison fit. This has been discussed at length. Polo has dropped the rise and skinnied the fit of many of their models, and simply dropped others. Add a requirement that the fabric be interesting in some way, and you're down to zero options in many cases.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Do you only shop at BB? Ben Silver or O'Connell's do not have what you want? There are department stores from my neck of the woods that carry what you are craving.

The only problem is pleats, which I don't like myself...A gym membership might make things easier in the clothing department as well as the health department. My brother had the same problem, and that helped him--but it might not apply to you unless you are portly as well.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Ben Silver is about what it's down to. Which is fine, if one of the three or four fabrics they have for any season is what you want. And fine if you don't expect to shop in person. And fine if you don't ever want to get something on sale at the end of a season, and fine if that's the price point you are looking for. 

As for my health, I'll be up at 4:50 tomorrow morning for my appointment with the trainer. 

I don't know why you're so determined to turn everything into an ad hominem attack.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Ben Silver is about what it's down to. Which is fine, if one of the three or four fabrics they have for any season is what you want. And fine if you don't expect to shop in person. And fine if you don't ever want to get something on sale at the end of a season, and fine if that's the price point you are looking for.
> 
> As for my health, I'll be up at 4:50 tomorrow morning for my appointment with the trainer.
> 
> I don't know why you're so determined to turn everything into an ad hominem attack.


Curious as it may be to you and I CuffDaddy, there are those who gain a sense of validation from provoking fellows on-line. I speculate here, of course, but it is perhaps a deep loneliness that drives this urge to pester.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Ben Silver is about what it's down to. Which is fine, if one of the three or four fabrics they have for any season is what you want. And fine if you don't expect to shop in person. And fine if you don't ever want to get something on sale at the end of a season, and fine if that's the price point you are looking for.
> 
> As for my health, I'll be up at 4:50 tomorrow morning for my appointment with the trainer.
> 
> I don't know why you're so determined to turn everything into an ad hominem attack.


Who's attacking you, not me...If you want me to carefully brush your hair and tell you your pretty then tough cookies, ask your wife.

It is a simple fact, that you might be too fat or too thin if you have to, out of dire necessity, go bespoke. Bespoke is rarely out of necessity. As for your talk of sales and convenience, bespoke tailors do not offer what you are after either.

Ben Silver is not the only brand that carries a higher than trendy rise, there are others...I am proof of this. I have done bespoke out of convenience of not having to shop and vanity not out of a necessity, as you have to endure. You having a trainer is only further proof that I was in fact correct, you may be too out of shape, and it is not so much the retailer's fault you turn to bespoke but the failings of age and physique. If that hurt you then you are too weak to even face fact, which means you might indeed suffer some insecurities. I do not intend to provoke, but my bluntness is not what you are used to...I work in an industry where brute fact is thrown in your face everyday, get used to it


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks, Ivanov. Very helpful of you to be so honest about exactly what you are. Now we know.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Thanks, Ivanov. Very helpful of you to be so honest about exactly what you are. Now we know.


Only Ben Silver carries higher rise pants...No other retailer in America does. It is fact.

Thank you for letting me know this, I will now go to my closet and tear up all my low rise pants shamelessly masquerading as higher rise. They have deceived me, they are horrible. I have been wearing skinny pants all along.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Yawn.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Shaver, prove me wrong, prove your friend right. Then it will be known that you are not opposing my view because you and Cuffdaddy exchange careless whispers. Acting like a gnat, does not make you clever

Do you read Khayyam or did you just find that line to make you seem profound...tell me, please what do you know about Persian poetry?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Ivanov said:


> Shaver, prove me wrong, prove your friend right. Then it will be known that you are not opposing my view because you and Cuffdaddy exchange careless whispers. Acting like a gnat, does not make you clever


A *view*? Is that what you believe you are expressing? My monitor must be on the blink because all I am able to see is you picking fights, with some of our finest members, across several threads simultaneously. Clever man that you are.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Shaver said:


> A *view*? Is that what you believe you are expressing? My monitor must be on the blink because all I am able to see is you picking fights, with some of our finest members, across several threads simultaneously. Clever man that you are.


As I expected, you have nothing to say...I suggest when you have nothing to say you don't say anything. Pity that the members you deem 'fine' need you to defend them.

You are doing your fine members a disservice.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Ivanov said:


> As I expected, you have nothing to say...I suggest when you have nothing to say you say nothing. Pity that the members you deem 'fine' need you to defend them.
> 
> You are doing your fine members a disservice.


shhhhhh........ :icon_smile:


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

I suppose that settles it, high rise pants can only be found bespoke. I was proven wrong


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## questioner (Jul 25, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> _skinny pants (and other type of clothes) works well only on women. So it's not for people with testes._


leading Beau Brummel finds this offensive.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

questioner said:


> leading Beau Brummel finds this offensive.


I have always wondered what Leatherface from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre might be up to these days.

Now I know.

Posing as George Brummell, apparently.

:icon_smile_wink:


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

As witty as always...you must get that from searching lines of Khayyum


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

*There is a difference between skinny and slim trousers!*

You look at Cuff's original post and those pants on the left look absolutely ridiculous. The trousers are simply way too snug. The fact that the trousers are binding to his legs and the cuff opening barely covers his ankle without covering a bit of the shoe is awful. I would say that even the gentleman on the right has fairly slim fitting trousers especially in context of what may have been popular over the last 30 years or so (I have to ignore most of the 70s - a lost decade sartorially speaking)

Slim fitting trousers look good on slim individuals in the same way a slim fit shirt looks good on a slim individual. Overly tight clothing that fit to the point they pull and bind never look good. I think there is a difference between a slim fit and a skinny fit.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

A very rational post...Watch out cuffdaddy and his henchmen might make an example of you


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Ivanov said:


> A very rational post...Watch out cuffdaddy and his henchmen might make an example of you


Whatever - took me only four posts the first time and then they all piled on! Cuff is a bit overbearing at times - so what - he knows it! The people on this forum know it! Nonetheless, many of his posts are informative and well written so on the whole I enjoy his contributions. Hey - I have been called overbearing more than once - I kind of see it as a positive personality trait.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

I don't think I'd really understand what you've gone through, I have a thick skin...but being overbearing is not a positive thing, ask women what they think.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Ivanov said:


> I don't think I'd really understand what you've gone through, I have a thick skin...but being overbearing is not a positive thing, ask women what they think.


Women are usually the ones calling me overbearing.....perhaps not as positive a personality trait in that context!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Dedicated to our lonely friend:

Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss'd 
Of the Two Worlds so learnedly, are thrust 
Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn 
Are scatter'd, and their Mouths are stopt with Dust.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Do you actually read translations of Persian poetry? I don't know why I deign to ask you...


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Ivanov said:


> Do you actually read translations of Persian poetry?* I don't know why I deign to ask you*...


Agree, that is an intriguing and possibly revealing question.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Ivanov, it seems you came here looking for a fight. Why? What is your purpose in this? No offence buddy, but not only has CuffDaddy been around longer than you and I have been alive, he's got a lot more knowledge about menswear than you do.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

JBierly said:


> You look at Cuff's original post and those pants on the left look absolutely ridiculous. The trousers are simply way too snug. The fact that the trousers are binding to his legs and the cuff opening barely covers his ankle without covering a bit of the shoe is awful. I would say that even the gentleman on the right has fairly slim fitting trousers especially in context of what may have been popular over the last 30 years or so (I have to ignore most of the 70s - a lost decade sartorially speaking)
> 
> Slim fitting trousers look good on slim individuals in the same way a slim fit shirt looks good on a slim individual. Overly tight clothing that fit to the point they pull and bind never look good. I think there is a difference between a slim fit and a skinny fit.


With that I will agree. I think Cuff was specifically railing against the truly skinny trousers, however.


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Jovan said:


> he's got a lot more knowledge about menswear than you do.


How would you know this? A serious question.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Ivanov said:


> Do you actually read translations of Persian poetry? I don't know why I deign to ask you...


Is a passing familiarity with the genre not explicitly revealed in the provison of such an apt quatrain, for you? :icon_smile:


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Shaver said:


> Is a passing familiarity with the genre not explicitly revealed in the provison of such an apt quatrain, for you? :icon_smile:


No, since when is a passing anything considered anything but superficial? Also, telling is calling a national literature a genre (the novel is a relatively recent form used in Iran). Dilettante, I believe would be a kind way of describing your 'scholarly' pursuits. You must be as profound as the posts I've encountered.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Ivanov said:


> No, since when is a passing anything considered anything but superficial? Also, telling is calling a national literature a genre (the novel is a relatively recent form used in Iran). Dilettante, I believe would be a kind way of describing your 'scholarly' pursuits. You must be as profound as the posts I've encountered.


There are two meanings of dilettante, which rather erodes your attempted witticism. You may, or may not, be aware of this for you also seem confused as to the possible applications of the noun 'genre'.

Never mind. I am certain that you can rectify this when you 'edit' your comment ex post facto, in your usual manner. :icon_smile:

Truly I wept, leaning upon a peak
Of the hard crag, so that my Escort said
To me:"Art thou, too, of the other fools?


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Shaver said:


> There are two meanings of dilettante, which rather erodes your attempted witticism. You may, or may not, be aware of this for you also seem confused as to the possible applications of the noun 'genre'.
> 
> Never mind. I am certain that you can rectify this when you 'edit' your comment ex post facto, in your usual manner. :icon_smile:
> 
> ...


There are many meanings to all sorts of words; however,it takes a fair bit of obtuseness not to connect what you euphemistically call a 'passing familiarity' with what I meant...as well, the meaning you are referring to is rather dated. Let us simply assume you are as clever as you are trying to pass off.

As for the application of genre...Persian literature of that period was essentially all poetry, there were no other 'genres'.

Shld we start keeping score of how many times you have failed miserably at being clever?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Ivanov said:


> There are many meanings to all sorts of words; however,it takes a fair bit of obtuseness not to connect what you euphemistically call a 'passing familiarity' with what I meant...as well, the meaning you are referring to is rather dated. Let us simply assume you are as clever as you are trying to pass off.
> 
> As for the application of genre...Persian literature of that period was essentially all poetry, there were no other 'genres'.
> 
> Shld we start keeping score of how many times you have failed miserably at being clever?


This is too incoherent, old chap. Be a good fellow and write it up again, in order that it makes something approaching sense.

I note from your postings you have been submiting to this forum regularly for nearly 24 hours. Perhaps a little rest will allow you a fresh and lucid start later in the day. :icon_smile:


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> I'm waiting for it to go on sale at JAB for $9.99!
> 
> Well done! :thumbs-up:


That's all well and good. However, what are you going to do with the two that come free with it?


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## Ivanov (Nov 7, 2012)

Shaver said:


> This is too incoherent, old chap. Be a good fellow and write it up again, in order that it makes something approaching sense.
> 
> I note from your postings you have been submiting to this forum regularly for nearly 24 hours. Perhaps a little rest will allow you a fresh and lucid start later in the day. :icon_smile:


My life is caught up in research at the moment...I cannot rest till that is done. As to coherence, you can't understand because you are obtuse or playing the part. You clearly don't like being outed as a simple fellow playing the sophisticated gentleman.

Please post another exotic Persian poem from the book your father kept in his study...your passing familiarity is so impressive


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Ivanov said:


> There are many meanings to all sorts of words; however,it takes a fair bit of obtuseness not to connect what you euphemistically call a 'passing familiarity' with what I meant...as well, the meaning you are referring to is rather dated. Let us simply assume you are as clever as you are trying to pass off.
> 
> As for the application of genre...Persian literature of that period was essentially all poetry, there were no other 'genres'.
> 
> Shld we start keeping score of how many times you have failed miserably at being clever?


On the subject of obtuseness...hhhmm


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Ivanov said:


> My life is caught up in research at the moment...I cannot rest till that is done. As to coherence, you can't understand because you are obtuse or playing the part. You clearly don't like being outed as a simple fellow playing the sophisticated gentleman.
> 
> Please post another exotic Persian poem from the book your father kept in his study...your passing familiarity is so impressive


Actually the last excerpt I bestowed upon you was Dante, did you not recognise it?

Get some sleep. :icon_smile:
.
.
.
.
.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Ivanov said:


> As I expected, you have nothing to say...I suggest when you have nothing to say you don't say anything. Pity that the members you deem 'fine' need you to defend them.
> 
> You are doing your fine members a disservice.


In my experience, having been a member here for almost 5 years as opposed to your, what is it... 5 days?, that Shaver has plenty to say, and I would suggest you simply don't want to hear it.

The only person doing other members a disservice is you!

I would further suggest that if you can't accept alternate opinions without becoming pompous and aggressive then a gentleman's discussion forum is clearly not for you.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Another sock puppet.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> In my experience, having been a member here for almost 5 years as opposed to your, what is it... 5 days?, that Shaver has plenty to say, and I would suggest you simply don't want to hear it.
> 
> The only person doing other members a disservice is you!
> 
> I would further suggest that if you can't accept alternate opinions without becoming pompous and aggressive then a gentleman's discussion forum is clearly not for you.


Exactly right.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


>


Getting back to the OP, I'm more interested by the ... strange way they display trousers in Mr Barbera's shop. Is that normal in America?


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

Wait a minute... Dante was Persian?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Langham said:


> Getting back to the OP, I'm more interested by the ... strange way they display trousers in Mr Barbera's shop. Is that normal in America?


Nope.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Ivanov said:


> Skinny does seem a tad uncomfortable..
> 
> One thing I don't quite understand is why grown men react so strongly to certain types of clothes...If it is objectively a bad style of clothing then why care? You look even better dressed and more sophisticated in comparison.
> 
> Sometimes I think such strong objections come from insecurity, not to say cuffdaddy is particularly invested in bashing skinny clothes--he might be saying these things humorously and not care what people do


There's seemingly greater insecurity in wearing what most people wear, skinny, than wearing a looser fit.

And if you don't understand a opinionated discussion on menswear, then why post on this forum at all? If you view clothing in a social context, non-reaction to what other people wear is hard. Perhaps it would be easier to understand your point if you explained how you yourself react to what other men wear, and why.


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