# What's the difference between cheap and expensive dress shirts?



## WBuffettJr (Dec 3, 2008)

Just a newbie wanting to understand all the differences. Say I'm looking at an OTR $200 Ike Behar from Neiman's and a $20 Van Heusen from Macy's...what are the differences? I mean, I'm guessing the Ike uses a better fabric, but is there anything beyond that? A different type of stitching? How is the cotton better? Why is an expensive shirt worth the extra money?

Any help would be appreciated!


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## Scoundrel (Oct 30, 2007)

I would say a lot more ironing, ha ha ha ha


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## laufer (Feb 20, 2008)

WBuffettJr said:


> Just a newbie wanting to understand all the differences. Say I'm looking at an OTR $200 Ike Behar from Neiman's and a $20 Van Heusen from Macy's...what are the differences? I mean, I'm guessing the Ike uses a better fabric, but is there anything beyond that? A different type of stitching? How is the cotton better? Why is an expensive shirt worth the extra money?
> 
> Any help would be appreciated!


Save your self some time and money and go to mytailor.com and get custom made shirts. All of those $ 200 luxury shirts at Neiman Marcus will look just as bad as $20.00 shirts if they do not fit.


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## nmprisons (Mar 20, 2008)

Ike Behar is not a beacon of high quality shirts, but generally you are paying more for the following:

(1) nicer fabric 
(2) nicer buttons
(3) better stitching (more stitches/inch, single needle, higher quality thread, etc.)
(4) brand name
(5) at the high end, you get some hand work in there as well.


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

nmprisons said:


> Ike Behar is not a beacon of high quality shirts, but generally you are paying more for the following:
> 
> (1) nicer fabric
> (2) nicer buttons
> ...


All this plus:

Superb styling and structure of the shirt as in collar length; proportions; fit of course; longevity as in a good shirt will last a long time and look better with age; and finally, but most importantly, it will feel good wearing it in all types of weather. Last but not least, and if you don't get this then don't bother, pride of ownership.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

$200 for a RTW shirt seems pretty spendy to me when, as mentioned above, you can get MTM from MyTailor for a lot less or you can get MTM from Talbotts for a bit more.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Ahhhh, I love maths...



WBuffettJr said:


> Say I'm looking at an OTR $200 Ike Behar from Neiman's and a $20 Van Heusen from Macy's...what are the differences?


$180. That's the difference.

Sorry, I blew it, but these guys are saying it all. I've never even thought about a Van Heusen shirt and Ike Behar is above my range. You could do better just ordering online from some of the overseas guys making bespoke shirts for around $120 I bet. They would give you a better fit unless you naturally fall into the shape of these shirts in the stores.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

WBuffettJr said:


> Just a newbie wanting to understand all the differences. Say I'm looking at an OTR $200 Ike Behar from Neiman's and a $20 Van Heusen from Macy's...what are the differences? I mean, I'm guessing the Ike uses a better fabric, but is there anything beyond that? A different type of stitching? How is the cotton better? Why is an expensive shirt worth the extra money?


Odds are the $20 Van Heusen isn't even all cotton.

Another difference is that if you buy a shirt at Neiman-Marcus, the salesman will remember you, send you personal notes inviting you to sales, and will remember your size and favorite style. At Macy's, you're probably going to be waited on by a college student who'll spend the entire transaction on the phone with her girlfriend talking about what clubs they're going to that weekend, and if the register doesn't ring up the right price because they're having a "One Day Sale" she'll walk off to "find a manager" and go smoke a cigarette until you give up.


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## stant62 (Aug 6, 2008)

Miket61 said:


> Odds are the $20 Van Heusen isn't even all cotton.
> 
> Another difference is that if you buy a shirt at Neiman-Marcus, the salesman will remember you, send you personal notes inviting you to sales, and will remember your size and favorite style. At Macy's, you're probably going to be waited on by a college student who'll spend the entire transaction on the phone with her girlfriend talking about what clubs they're going to that weekend, and if the register doesn't ring up the right price because they're having a "One Day Sale" she'll walk off to "find a manager" and go smoke a cigarette until you give up.


I definitely agree. The customer service at Neiman, Brooks Brothers, Barney's or even Bloomingdale's definitely contributes to the shopping experience. Not saying that it'd be always worth that premium, but sometimes that extra something that the higher-end department stores bring to the table are definitely dealbreakers.

FYI, you can typically find Ike Behar (among other middle-level brands) shirts at bargain department stores like Filene's or Century 21.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

The high-end American dress shirts always seem over priced to me. English shirts like Hilditch & Key give you the same quality for a lot less. Just make sure you order from England. I don't know if any places in America still sell them, but when they used to they doubled the price.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

WBuffettJr said:


> ...OTR $200...


That is a lot for OTR...


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## El Captain (Nov 10, 2008)

Matt S said:


> The high-end American dress shirts always seem over priced to me. English shirts like Hilditch & Key give you the same quality for a lot less. Just make sure you order from England. I don't know if any places in America still sell them, but when they used to they doubled the price.


Where would you suggest to order from sounds like a great value.


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## ChicagoMediaMan-27 (Feb 23, 2008)

nmprisons said:


> Ike Behar is not a beacon of high quality shirts, but generally you are paying more for the following:
> 
> (1) nicer fabric
> (2) nicer buttons
> ...


Good answer. Plus, that Van Huesen shirt most likely will not be 100% cotton. 
As some of the others have said, the online MTM programs are a great deal for what you pay. You just have to be a little patient.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

The Van Huesen will look good with jeans and black shoes.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*Ike Behar and Robert Talbott shirts are available at discount ....*

at places like STP or Filene's. As previously posted, English shirts are a much better deal, and I might add, if you don't have a problem with an unusual shape, you don't need a custom shirt. I have had many custom made shirts, but my English shirts from Harvie and Hudson work just as well as any expensive shirt I've ever purchased. Order your shirts on line, and skip the department stores. You'll get a better shirt and save money. Do a search and read the threads about quality shirts to learn enough to make intelligent selections.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

WBuffettJr said:


> Just a newbie wanting to understand all the differences. Say I'm looking at an OTR $200 Ike Behar from Neiman's and a $20 Van Heusen from Macy's...what are the differences? I mean, I'm guessing the Ike uses a better fabric, but is there anything beyond that? A different type of stitching? How is the cotton better? Why is an expensive shirt worth the extra money?
> 
> Any help would be appreciated!


The price?

Seriously though, quality of fabric and workmanship (2 different things), both of which can impact longevity and therefore value, should be measured against the initial cost.

Beyond a few NY and London shitmakers (not on your shopping list) I dont have any recent experience that could help. But,... otr at $200 is likley not worth it as the first problem will be fit. You should have a custom fit at that price, and while the fabric may suggest a high price and value, the workmanship, as well as fit, is unlikely to keep up.

CEGO (Shirtmaven on this forum) can give you an outstanding custom shirt for about $150.

$20 at Macy's is worth $20 at Macys and probably looks it.

Cheers,


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

If you are like me, immediate gratification and finding exactly what you want when you are in the store assuming it fits well are the reasons to buy an OTR shirt.

Ike Behar are not worth $200. You can find them all day long for $75-$100 at the outlets and various secondary stores like nordstrom Rack.

Buy a shirt that fits and that feels good when you put it on even after several washings. This will take trial and error in the beginning. Buy on sale to find the best prices.

MTM if the Tailor is good at measuring you is great. If you know exactly what you want and can pick the cloth assuming you know anything about cloth is great too. The tailor can help you pick good cloth. The right kind of MOP buttons and all the details such as a pocket or no pocket, 5 mil stitching on the collar, the length of collar, sleeve buttons, split yoke, etc.. there are many things that go into a shirt. BTW, Most MTM shirts have no hand work in them.


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## WBuffettJr (Dec 3, 2008)

I want to thank everybody for your replies.

Just to be clear, I have no intention of spending $200 on a Ike Behar, Burberry, Robert Talbott, Hickey Freeman, or HSM shirt. I've already purchased all of these brand new for around $30 each. I went to the Neiman Marcus Last Call store at midnight after Thanksgiving and bought about 14 new shirts at that price plus lots of wool trousers. Both are at the tailor's right now being fitted.

I'm just wondering what makes those shirts cost that much. Why does one store have a dress shirt for $20 and one have one for $150 assuming neither is hand-made. That's really what I was asking.

In the future, I plan to have all MTM shirts going forward. It was just hard to pass up these ridiculous deals, and when you add in the cost of going to the tailor to have them altered, I still come out far, far ahead this way (just went back two days ago to NMLC and bought a Hikey Freeman in my size for $27.50 brand new.

Thanks again for all the responses thus far. This has been a great discussion.


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## BetterThanAliens (Dec 2, 2008)

laufer said:


> Save your self some time and money and go to mytailor.com and get custom made shirts. All of those $ 200 luxury shirts at Neiman Marcus will look just as bad as $20.00 shirts if they do not fit.


Maybe I'm confused, but can I only have white collars on my custom shirts? I'd like the same color all around - including the collar. This site holds a lot of potential...


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

The difference between cheap and expensive shirts....
When you buy a cheap shirt you have more money left over


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Joe Frances said:


> ...most importantly, *it will feel good wearing it in all types of weather.*


Help me out here. What exactly are you talking about?

I know of no shirt at any price that fits that description.​


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## laufer (Feb 20, 2008)

BetterThanAliens said:


> Maybe I'm confused, but can I only have white collars on my custom shirts? I'd like the same color all around - including the collar. This site holds a lot of potential...


Yes you can. You can have nearly anything you want. DO not order from online but check the schedule to see when one of their tailors is coming in your area to get personal measurement


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## cosmotoast (Oct 11, 2008)

*outcast*

O.k. guys let me be the outcast cheapskate around here.I have had plenty of experience with van huesen,haggar and pierre carden shirts. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt after one year or less of wearing and washing the stitches start to fall out of them, all of them. The only el cheapo shirts ive had any luck out of is nordstrom or geoffrey bean but, those really do not compare to a higher end shirt.You guys are all right, you get what you pay for.
Cosmo:drunken_smilie:


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## magmaster21 (Sep 11, 2008)

I am one that will and has spent $400 on an OTR shirt. One reason is instant gratification and the other is that many patterns are exclusive to these outfitters (Charvet immediately comes to mind - although their MTM aren't that much more money than their OTR).

I have been extremely pleased with the OTR fit of Brioni, Charvet, and Fray.

EDIT: And I almost forgot - I get personalized notes mailed to me from the salesmen at Bergdorf thanking me for my purchase!


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

magmaster21 said:


> I am one that will and has spent $400 on an OTR shirt. One reason is instant gratification and the other is that many patterns are exclusive to these outfitters (Charvet immediately comes to mind - although their MTM aren't that much more money than their OTR).
> 
> I have been extremely pleased with the OTR fit of Brioni, Charvet, and Fray.
> 
> EDIT: And I almost forgot - I get personalized notes mailed to me from the salesmen at Bergdorf thanking me for my purchase!


 I agree with you. See my post above. Instant Gratification. You can wear it immediately, They go on sale for 50-70% off as well. The sales people send you thank you notes.:icon_smile_big:


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## jammie (Sep 21, 2008)

Nice material and if it has a name (brand)


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## sucitta (Nov 13, 2008)

I would not spend $200 on an Ike Behar shirt. I have bought several Turnbull and Asser shirts and a beautiful Oxxford RTW shirt at Neiman Marcus for less than $200 each by waiting for a sale and then waiting a little longer until they make their final reductions (e.g., sale price plus another 40% off). Cheap dress shirts look cheap in every respect, from the buttons to the finish of the fabric. And they do not last.


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## tsaltzma (Jun 3, 2009)

sucitta said:


> And they do not last.


I've had some that last quite awhile, but they look like crap well before they physically start breaking down. The few expensive shirts I owned before I came here, still look good.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

1. price
2. snobbery
3. fancy label


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> 1. price
> 2. snobbery
> 3. fancy label


Yar.

But we're also comparing extreme opposites in the spectrum.

A walmart special gets you through the day. If you spill coffee on yourself and need a shirt, sliding by the nearby superdeluxe to cover the faux-pa (especially if you have a jacket to cover it) will work. But like anything else, you can buy cheap LOTS, or buy good once. In the OP's example, we're talking about the extreme upper end, whereas he can get 99%+ of the quality (or better) at 75% (or lower of the cost), and it will last him several times as long as the walmart special.

But... You can't where the same shirt day after day, so long term cost savings do have to be tempered with having an adequate rotating supply. I have several walmart specials in my closet (now I wear them with jeans), but having 3 of them, and 1 "nice" shirt, and slowly building up the nice:special ratio was how I did it. Couldn't afford to throw down all the cash at once, so I "split the difference" and bought a few lower end shirts/pants, and 1-2 sets of nicer stuff for when I wanted to make a "better" impression, then slowly built it up.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

WBuffettJr said:


> I want to thank everybody for your replies.
> 
> Just to be clear, I have no intention of spending $200 on a Ike Behar, Burberry, Robert Talbott, Hickey Freeman, or HSM shirt. I've already purchased all of these brand new for around $30 each. I went to the Neiman Marcus Last Call store at midnight after Thanksgiving and bought about 14 new shirts at that price plus lots of wool trousers. Both are at the tailor's right now being fitted.
> 
> ...


Good question. Ike Behar's custom shirts on one thing, but their $200 OTR stuff is a flat rip-off. I don't know much about Burberry's prices, but I do know Gitman makes all their shirts for them and the Gitman's I sell are made in the USA and retail from $75-$200 (the high end is Swiss & Sea-Island cotton). I think the fashion brands sold by Nordstrom (facconable, Ike Behar OTR, etc) and others are usually overpriced junk.

Better shirts use better cotton with finer yarns, more luster and durability. Cheap shirts use low quality cotton blended with polyester that i sewn using Pacific Rim labor. Better shirts should also have better stitching (folded & sewn seams vs serged). Mother of pearl buttons are also a nice touch. Kabbaz is the best man for this question.


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## Thurnau (Apr 14, 2010)

Having owned both... 
The cheaper shirts won't wash as well, the cut won't be as nice, sometimes are itchy, the fabrics are very basic. You might get cotton, or a poly blend. The also may shrink more too. 
More expensive shirts tend to hold up better, are more stylish, the fabrics can be more interesting in color and textures, there is a finer attention to detail although it doesn't justify a 200 price or a 400 price if you go to the nicer brands. Go to Brooks brothers and you get to pick a nice shirt for 80 with a lot of fabrics collar and cuffs with several different cuts (full, slim, luxury, etc), or a made to measure picking all fabric, collars, cuffs, and sizes to 1/4" for about 150. 

For what its worth my dry cleaner said that more expensive shirts hold up better; cheap shirts don't last as many washes.


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## aillison (Apr 27, 2010)

maybe the difference between design and quallity


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

I know this was an older thread, but interesting that it popped up when it did.
I have been purchasing shirts at a local department store. The shirts looked nice on me, fit pretty good, and were $25 and less. Well I can definitely say the fabric starts showing wear after just a few washings, the seams start coming out, and they do shrink a little. I was having a hard time justifying $120 for a shirt (afterall, it is just a crummy shirt!!!), but NOW I see the differences. If a $120 shirt last five times as long as a $25 shirt, and I'm sure it will, and it looks good doing it, it is certainly worth it. Now I have to start saving up to slowly build up my quality shirt collection. 

Andy B.


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## harvey_birdman (Mar 10, 2008)

Another important difference, at least for me, is country of origin. Those cheap shirts at JC Pennys or Macy's are made in third world hell holes with child labour. I appreciate a good deal but I have no desire to wear shirts made off the blood and sweat and missing fingers of children. I will continue to purchase Made in the first world shirts from propercloth.com or BB's Made in the USA line.

Ike Behar as far as I know is made in the US or Canada.


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## Thurnau (Apr 14, 2010)

Speaking of propercloth my shirt just came in. The shirt quality is great as is the presentation, but the customer service wasn't that good. I tried to change an order the day after I ordered it. The phones were broken, I got a message of just noise and then their phone system hung up on me 3 times in a row. I then emailed them off of their web form and I never got any responses. I did however get a lot of repeated email spam of their new fabrics though. I think their website also misled me on fabric choice. I slid the slider to choose the thinnest coolest fabric. My shirt's fabric ended up being quite thick. If this shirt wasn't so beautiful and well made I would have sent it back.


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## ASH (Feb 7, 2006)

I agree that H&H, T&A or sometime CT shirts are better value for money when it comes to OTR - usually runs around $50-$110. Ike shirt for $200 is excessive, I got a superb one with Sea Island quality at the Last Call on sale for $37 (down from $175). 
However we are claiming the price tag of $200 is excessive for OTR, but what are your learned opinion on shirts from Kiton, Borelli, Lorenzini and Brioni starting at $500+? Does the price justify the handwork?


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## Peachey Carnehan (Apr 18, 2009)

In my limited experience a nice well made shirt can be had for just a bit more than the lower end shirts. If you shop the clearance items at Brooks Brothers a great shirt will just be a little bit more than the ok shirt from Lands End. A well made shirt should fit you better, and the better fabric should make it more comfortable and last longer.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Fit has absolutely nothing to do with price or quality. Nor does better fabric necessarily = longer life.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Lorenzini does not start at $500+


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