# Sam Hober bow tie prototype



## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

After months of top-level discussions David Hober sent me a prototype bow tie - or Beta Bow.

Note no adjuster thingy. Clients will need to supply their measurements - which I found rather tricky. I think I need to shave an inch off mine, for instance.

It has the same feel as the Trad Specials.

David says it will be a little while before these are ready for the world - this is just a sneak preview.


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

Great looking tie. Patrick, may I suggest that you send your tie to someone with a larger neck. I for example have a 17.5 inch neck, I'm sure it would fit me just fine


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

How wide is it?


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

Agreed that it is too long on you. Other than that, I think it's beautiful. 

Huzzah to Hober.

JB


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

clemsontiger said:


> How wide is it?


2 3/4"

Remember, as with all Hober ties, these will be made to your specs.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

You know, I kind of have to question David's decision to not make an adjustable bow tie. The inability to change the length of the tie by quarter inches to get it "just right" is something that I'm afraid I would miss in a sized bow tie. It does look good though; I like the width.


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## zarathustra (Aug 24, 2006)

tripreed said:


> You know, I kind of have to question David's decision to not make an adjustable bow tie. The inability to change the length of the tie by quarter inches to get it "just right" is something that I'm afraid I would miss in a sized bow tie. It does look good though; I like the width.


True. There are times i like a small bow and others i prefer a bit larger. Totally depends on my mood and the situation.

It does look great and i can understand not wanting to have to deal with the adjustments. It could be quite cumbersome for production.


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

tripreed said:


> You know, I kind of have to question David's decision to not make an adjustable bow tie. The inability to change the length of the tie by quarter inches to get it "just right" is something that I'm afraid I would miss in a sized bow tie. It does look good though; I like the width.


I agree as well, I like to adjust mine as well. While a sized bow does seem a little nicer, there is a ring of impracticality.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

clemsontiger said:


> Great looking tie. Patrick, may I suggest that you send your tie to someone with a larger neck. I for example have a 17.5 inch neck, I'm sure it would fit me just fine


No offense, but as I take an 18 inch collar, perhaps I should step ahead of you in line. :icon_smile:

As an aside, I wish I could still wear a 17.5 collar as that is the maximum size that many shirts are made.

Cheers, Jim.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

stunning look!

let's say if you have a 15 neck, i think the bow should have adjustable neck from 14-16. leaving a bit room for error.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

I agree, Patrick...needs to be shortened up 1/2" or so. Still, not at all bad for a first effort.

I don't share the others' concerns about custom bow tie lengths. I mean, it's not like your neck actually changes sizes, right? If you buy your shirts with the right size collars, it shouldn't matter.

Long live custom tailoring.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Topsider said:


> I agree, Patrick...needs to be shortened up 1/2" or so. Still, not at all bad for a first effort.
> 
> I don't share the others' concerns about custom bow tie lengths. I mean, it's not like your neck actually changes sizes, right? If you buy your shirts with the right size collars, it shouldn't matter.
> 
> Long live custom tailoring.


I think figuring out what the length should be from the git-go is the tough thing.

Also, just as my waist size fluctuates, so does my neck. Not as much, obviously, but it does.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

*Patrick,*

You look great. Your photo is the first one of a Sam Hober bow tie.

Or should I say beta version 1.

*Zarathustra,

*_"True. There are times I like a small bow and others I prefer a bit larger. Totally depends on my mood and the situation.

It does look great and I can understand not wanting to have to deal with the adjustments. It could be quite cumbersome for production."_

First, I like your name. Didn't Zarathustra say that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger" I vaguely recall this quote and I could be wrong.

Now on to bow ties, you make a good point about wanting different knots at different times.

As for adjustable ties I think that perhaps some gentlemen have missed part of Patrick's post. His tie is a "Beta" version tie one that is being tested. We actually made half a dozen beta versions and sent 4 of them to different parts of the world for comments.

I appreciate the comments, so gentlemen please keep them coming.
We are now working on Beta version 2.

Perhaps I will include an adjuster as an option. Perhaps MOP buttons or ?
I am not sure.

Also am I busy experimenting with different interlinings and silks. Patricks' is an English reppe weave with a light interlining. Which seems to be a winner.

I sent a black Thai shot silk bow tie to a gentleman in SF who loves classic clothes. I am waiting to see if he prefers a more traditional silk or likes the exotic Thai silk - which is not for everyone.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

David,

I think a slide adjuster is best. That way you don't have to worry about the T bar/holes and can easily adjust to your needs.

Looking forward to more prototypes and POINT ends!


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

EastVillageTrad said:


> David,
> 
> I think a slide adjuster is best. That way you don't have to worry about the T bar/holes and can easily adjust to your needs.
> 
> Looking forward to more prototypes and POINT ends!


East Village Trad,

Any chance that you could post a photo of a slide adjuster?

Point ends can certainly be made, as can any shape that can be clearly explained.


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

I'd like to see a slide adjuster as well


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## Leon (Apr 16, 2005)

Surely if these are bespoke bow ties, then they should be sized? The buckle of a adjustable tie is an ugly thing to see (admittedly only when wearing a wing collar).

I find bow ties on offer in London mean in width. They always look too small on me.

I would prefer either a more batswing, or a more thistle shape than this one.

Leon

Leon


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

For what it's worth, here are the three types of adjusters I have in my bow tie wardrobe (and the minimum and maximum lengths for each):

1. The most common 1/4 increment with metal "t-clip" (32 1/2" to 37")

2. Buttons--four buttons, four holes (32" to 37")

3. What I think EVT is referring to as a slide adjuster, on this Talbott tie. Hard to explain, but I think the detail picture shows it (30" to 39")



















JB


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

I agree the fit isn't quite right yet, but BEAUTIFUL tie!! Nice work!


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

Joe Tradly,

Thanks for the pics, I actually have some "sliders". I like the slider, if I had to commit I would commit to the slider over the "t-clip". I do enjoy the elegance of the mop buttons of say C&G and although none have fallen off a few are hanging on by dear life. Of course since I have a large neck I only use the last button.

PS - If anyone has C&G bows and want a little extras length they do make an extender. I was given one by a small store that carry them.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

*Joe,*

Great photos. Thank you.

The buttons look good and the slider seems better than the T style.

I have some nice smokey colored MOP buttons that I put aside a couple of years ago for just this project.

Perhaps I will make version 2 with some buttons. I will have to be careful to sew them on extra tight and perhaps add some extras in case one day a button falls off.

_____________________________________________________________

_"Surely if these are bespoke bow ties, then they should be sized? The buckle of a adjustable tie is an ugly thing to see (admittedly only when wearing a wing collar).

I find bow ties on offer in London mean in width. They always look too small on me.

I would prefer either a more batswing, or a more thistle shape than this one._"

*Leon,*

Yes, the ties will be bespoke.

To me bespoke means simply making what someone wants and it is our job to listen and create the client's vision. So while it is true that many gentlemen will prefer a sized bow tie, many seem to also prefer having a choice in how they adjust their tie's knot size etc.

At first our focus was on sized ties because I saw things the way you do. Now, I am swinging over towards offering adjustable bow ties.

The challenge is how to make the adjustable area look elegant yet be functional and strong.

I am pondering the matter and will be consulting with another beta tester in Utah who is a bow tie collector and enthusiast.

Also the shapes are not a challenge we will likely be making any shape requested. How to label the shapes can be interesting.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Patrick06790 said:


> Also, just as my waist size fluctuates, so does my neck. Not as much, obviously, but it does.


That is correct for most people. Most people's necks are proportionate to their waists. If you are scouring through vintage trousers in an open air market, as I used to do when I was a student, a good way to determine whether a pair of trousers would fit you without compromising one's modesty (as if I had any to begin with) is to close the trouser front and wrap the trouser waist around one's neck. If the fit around the neck is right, then it is very likely that it will fit your waist quite nicely.

As one gets older, the waist measurement tends to vary a bit, and as my shirtmaker has noticed every time I come in for a new order, my neck measurement has changed somewhat, in line with that of my gut.

Given that, I think it would be more practical to have an adjustable bow tie even though the idea of a sized bow is very appealing. That said, I find these bits of hardware rather unattractive. The bows I have are no exceptions. However, the example with buttons are rather nice, I find. Actually, I like the construction quite a bit. A very elegant solution, I think.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

*Bow Ties*



misterdonuts said:


> ......
> 
> Given that, I think it would be more practical to have an adjustable bow tie even though the idea of a sized bow is very appealing. That said, I find these bits of hardware rather unattractive. The bows I have are no exceptions. However, the example with buttons are rather nice, I find. Actually, I like the construction quite a bit. A very elegant solution, I think.


*Mister Doughnuts,*

There you have it in a nutshell, the hardware is somewhat unattractive yet sliders are useful and the MOP buttons are an elegant mid-point.

Perhaps for those who never gain or lose weight and know exactly what knot they prefer a sized bow tie sans adjuster would be a good solution.

For those who like the elegance of MOP buttons and need a little flexibilty, buttons would be nice. Perhaps a choice of colors for the buttons.

Finally, for those gentlemen who need lots of flexibilty in their knots sliding adjustors.

I think that I now have a plan.

I will use buttons on the beta 2 version.

And sliders on the beta 3 version.

A final beta 4 version to fine-tune shape, interlinings and constructions.

*Gentlemen,*

Please keep in mind that we are still testing and developing and all comments and suggestions are appreciated.

I am still pondering the sizing issue. With neckties I have a very simple mathematical formula that works very well.

Please see #6 on the following link:
https://www.samhober.com/customties/custommadetieguide.htm

Not long ago we completed a special Thai silk curtain project for a gentleman in New York that had precise and easy to follow directions. Part of the curtain had to wrap around a wooden rod and our client in his order notes used geometry from high school something along the lines of Pi r squared I think...

Well his calculations were perfect but I think that they may be too complex for measuring necks and lengths. Or am I all wrong and would this be a perfect solution?

Maybe clients measure the distance around their neck and I use a calculator to convert that into a length....

Hmm, I really am not sure.


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## dshell (Mar 17, 2007)

*Shank?*

Is there no way to knot part of the central bit in order to make minor adjustments to size? I would think something like a sheepshank although on a smaller scale would suffice. It might add some character without any of the vulgarity of adjustable hardware.

If monkey's fists can be used for cufflinks, then isn't there a whole world of nautical-inspired opportunities for the trad gentlemen?


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

dshell said:


> Is there no way to knot part of the central bit in order to make minor adjustments to size? I would think something like a sheepshank although on a smaller scale would suffice. It might add some character without any of the vulgarity of adjustable hardware.
> 
> If monkey's fists can be used for cufflinks, then isn't there a whole world of nautical-inspired opportunities for the trad gentlemen?


DShell,

I ma not sure that I can picture what you have in mind although it does sound interesting...

A photo please sir.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

David, I'm not sure how practical it is, but allow me to think out loud for a moment. The element of hardware that I find unattractive is the metal. Since one does not see the "T" or "L" hooks, that is not what bothers be. Instead, it is the ring, whether in a slider or a hook construction.

You live in a region that has traditional skill sets in carving horn objects. I am not knowledgeable about Thailand specifically but do know that artisans in Vietnam can do some rather nice work. 

If those rings can be done in polished horn, I think that it would be much more agreeable, perhaps even attractive.

As I said, just thinking out loud.
md


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

Mister Doughnuts,

When I read your post I liked the elegance of your solution. 

Although we are in Isan the silk region of Thailand, not in an area that works much with bone. 

Sometimes we go to OTOP shows where we may be able to meet artisans that work with bone.

OTOP means: One Tombon One Product with a Tombon being something like a county and the whole project is sponsored by the Thai government as a wonderful way to help traditional craft-people primarily from rural areas.

I would love to find someone at the next show that we visit who can weave a box for our ties and pocket squares from reeds. I can picture it as having an elegant natural look and being light weight. Hopefully, it will be strong enough to withstand post office mishaps.....


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## dshell (Mar 17, 2007)

Sam Hober said:


> I ma not sure that I can picture what you have in mind although it does sound interesting...


Well, I spent a few minutes experimenting with a tie. You'd better ignore my suggestion. I've found that knotting doesn't work because I can't get the knots to be small enough to be inconspicuous: one invariably ends up with lumps.

The bit connecting the blades (or whatever the nomenclature is) would need to be rather thin for something like a fisherman's knot (ABOK #293) to be practicable. Of course it would also look rather ugly with a wing collar.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

David is such a nice guy that I'm sure that he won't say that he is sorry that he brought the subject up.

As Leon and Topsider point out, your shirt collar and neck size rarely vary. It is a great benefit to have a bow tie that actually fits every time without having to bother with all of the adjustment mechanics such as buttons, slides, T things that come loose, etc.

Yes, you have to actually measure a bow tie from end to end, that fits perfectly. However, you only have to do it once. It works like trouser or shirt measurements. 

When we get into the third ring of saturn with things like polished Thai horn adjustments,Davids price will get to the point that no one can afford them. 

They are custom made, so he can do the length and blade width that you want. If it gets much more exotic than that, it would seem likely that he can't compete with Beau Ties Ltd.

No one has brought up the price yet, but that will be a factor. It's like an auto manufacturer asking a bunch of guys exactly what a new model should look like. By the time it is manufactured it will be priced so that it fails in the market place.

Yes, the prototype on Patrick is a tad too long. Make the model that he buys about an inch shorter, and the problem is solved.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Beautiful work as always, David.

I'm of two minds on the adjusters. If you go that route I think MOP buttons a la Carrott & Gibbs would be the way to go. No metal, nicely elegant. I do like the idea of completely sized tie, but it does make me a bit nervous.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Whatever the final product, it will be excellent. That's for sure. Mr. Hober offers top drawer service to customers, and the quality of the ties is consistently A+.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

Intrepid said:


> David is such a nice guy that I'm sure that he won't say that he is sorry that he brought the subject up.
> 
> As Leon and Topsider point out, your shirt collar and neck size rarely vary. It is a great benefit to have a bow tie that actually fits every time without having to bother with all of the adjustment mechanics such as buttons, slides, T things that come loose, etc.
> 
> ...


And here I thought that bespoke is about having options rather than having to pick a McMeal... No ketchup for me, thank you.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

*Intrepid,*

_"It is a great benefit to have a bow tie that actually fits every time without having to bother with all of the adjustment mechanics such as buttons, slides, T things that come loose, etc."_

Your comment about the practical aspect of custom sized ties is very clear and to the point much like your dimple post the other day which I read with pleasure.

_"When we get into the third ring of saturn with things like polished Thai horn adjustments, Davids' price will get to the point that no one can afford them."_

Very roughly I think that our bow tie prices will be around 2/3 the price of our 3-fold ties. So for example the silk that was used for Patricks tie was a reppe weave silk that we had woven in England last year when we started weaving college silks. As a bow tie it would be somewhere in the area of $50.

_"They are custom made, so he can do the length and blade width that you want. If it gets much more exotic than that, it would seem likely that he can't compete with Beau Ties Ltd."_

Don't worry although our prices will be very similar our quality will still be that of a tie custom made very, very slowly by hand. We will as always be available to listen to requests about shapes, interlinings etc..

I have seen similar tie and bow tie work in Paris or London or other parts of Europe but always at a high price point.....

*Mister Doughnuts,*

We shall have custom options.

Intrepid brings up a good point about prices and a simple way to deal with that is to have expanded menu pricing.

We already break our prices down by length, type of silk and construction etc..

*Harris,*

Thank you for your kind words.

*Alan,*

_"I'm of two minds on the adjusters. If you go that route I think MOP buttons a la Carrott & Gibbs would be the way to go. No metal, nicely elegant. I do like the idea of completely sized tie, but it does make me a bit nervous." _

Exactly.

Elegance vs nerves...


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## tonylumpkin (Jun 12, 2007)

Sorry to poke my nose into this discussion at such a late date, but I have one thing to offer. I would probably not buy a bow tie sans some sort of size ajustability. Not only is neck size subject to fluctuation, but I've found that a bow that will tie nicely for me on one shirt, may need size adjustment when I wear it with another shirt. For example: I've made adjustment of almost a full inch when going from a light linen shirt to wearing the same tie with a fairly heavy OCBD. Just another thought.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

tonylumpkin said:


> Sorry to poke my nose into this discussion at such a late date, but I have one thing to offer. I would probably not buy a bow tie sans some sort of size ajustability. Not only is neck size subject to fluctuation, but I've found that a bow that will tie nicely for me on one shirt, may need size adjustment when I wear it with another shirt. For example: I've made adjustment of almost a full inch when going from a light linen shirt to wearing the same tie with a fairly heavy OCBD. Just another thought.


*Tony,*

Good points.

The question is do you need a slider adjustor or would buttons work for you?


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

*A new owner...*

Patrick was kind enough to send me the Hober beta bow since my neck was large enough to house the beast.

The bow is much stiffer than my other bow ties. I first thought this was due to the lining Mr. Hober had used but its actually from the quality of the fabric. The stiffness certainly isn't a bad thing. The bow flares out a little more than my other bows, again just a difference. My wife noticed and loved the fact that the pattern matches up on both ends. Very nice work, I hope to report on well the bow holds up to picking from my stubble after a few more wears.

Here are a few pics I snapped on the way out to church on Sunday morning.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

^ Looking sharp.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

*Clemsontiger,*

Thank you very much for the photos.

The center of the tie has a nice look to it. Indeed, the tie does fit you so like in the fairy tales it must be yours.

Patrick will end up with another.

The silk is indeed a very tightly woven English reppe silk which gives it a crisp texture.

Our current testing focus is on the interaction of silks and interlinings so I appreciate your comments. Please do let me know how the silk holds up to extended wear. This particular silk should do very well.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

That is a GREAT looking bow tie. I love the colors/pattern and stiffness of the fabric. Looking forward to seeing more, David!


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Many apologies for this brief (I hope) diversion, but one of the posts above said that the tie (which is stunningly beautiful, by the way) was 2 3/4" wide. I recently saw a vintage Brooks Bros (formal black) on eBay that was described as 1.5" at widest point. I admit to favoring smaller bow ties over bulkier ones (I prefer classy to flashy), but is this too small? Suggestions/thoughts/opinions welcome.

P.S. I have about 100 neck ties. My favorite is a Hober. If I could start my collection over today, they'd pretty much all be Hober.


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## rgc (Mar 25, 2008)

I love the look of this tie, the crispness of the silk. I only wear a bow tie about once a week to once everyother week. That said, I want more, however, I think I will wait for Mr. Hober to come out with his. At $50-60 for a custom bow tie I don't consider it a bad deal at all. Hopefully within the next year or so business will pick up to the point I can start ordering some of his regular ties too as I am always just drooling at the diffrent materials he offers.

Oh yeah, I for one would be good with a custom measured tie or one that only allowed for an inch or so movement in size.

rgc


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## clemsontiger (Jun 9, 2007)

Mike Petrik said:


> Many apologies for this brief (I hope) diversion, but one of the posts above said that the tie (which is stunningly beautiful, by the way) was 2 3/4" wide. I recently saw a vintage Brooks Bros (formal black) on eBay that was described as 1.5" at widest point. I admit to favoring smaller bow ties over bulkier ones (I prefer classy to flashy), but is this too small? Suggestions/thoughts/opinions welcome.
> 
> P.S. I have about 100 neck ties. My favorite is a Hober. If I could start my collection over today, they'd pretty much all be Hober.


Personally 1.5 inch wide bow is too thin for my tastes. Yet I know some of the most sartorially/tradly sound dressers wear thinner bows and they wear them well. I think my wider preference (2.5-2.75) derives from what was readily available and thus the size I first wore.

I wish I could speak to the historically accurate trad acceptance of the bow tie width. I would expect that all widths have been accepted to a certain degree, minus the 3inch plus bows of the 70s.


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## anna.s (Mar 25, 2014)

*sliders*

3. What I think EVT is referring to as a slide adjuster, on this Talbott tie. Hard to explain, but I think the detail picture shows it (30" to 39")

Hello, 
Does anyone have a tip on where to get those slide adjusters? I feel like i searched everywhere but no results. Thank you, Anna


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

anna.s said:


> 3. What I think EVT is referring to as a slide adjuster, on this Talbott tie. Hard to explain, but I think the detail picture shows it (30" to 39")
> 
> Hello,
> Does anyone have a tip on where to get those slide adjusters? I feel like i searched everywhere but no results. Thank you, Anna


You might get a better response from making your own thread as opposed to replying to one that hasn't been active for almost six years.


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