# Patek Philippe



## Syringemouth (Aug 24, 2005)

I am considering a new watch. I would like to know if any of you own a Patek Philippe? How is the quality? What is the best one for business? Any information including models would be helpful. [^]


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## bespoke therapy (May 12, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Syringemouth_
> 
> I am considering a new watch. I would like to know if any of you own a Patek Philippe? How is the quality? What is the best one for business? Any information including models would be helpful. [^]


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i would check out Patek's website for pictures of models for you to decide which is suitable for you ( beauty in the eyes of the beholder etc..). Also timezone.com, which is like AA for watches.

thry are extremely accurate for mechanical watches- even the non tourbillion ones- i experience about 1 minute loss over a 6-8 week period


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

From what I've heard and read, very good quality watches. One of those brands where those who "know" watches will know you bought quality. A few that I have seen have a nice classic look to them.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

I am luckly enough to own 2, a world timer and an annual calendar. They are quite simply the best watches in the world.



> quote:_Originally posted by Trenditional_
> 
> From what I've heard and read, very good quality watches. One of those brands where those who "know" watches will know you bought quality. A few that I have seen have a nice classic look to them.


Vik


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

I prefer Lange at that level of watch. Actually, IMO they are the only two watches at that level, and I strongly prefer Lange.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

I do not own a Patek but I get the sense that while the movements are superb (innovative, ornately finished and impeccably crafted), you pay a bit more for the name than you do with other makers. 

Personally, I find Breguet and Lange to be far more attractive in their designs. 

One last consideration is water resistance - some Pateks have press-on backs that offer no water resistance. Obviously you're not going swimming - much less diving - with your Patek strapped to your wrist but it could make for one rather expensive summer downpour...


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

I should also clarify by saying that I do not own any watches in this price range.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

I think that PP's iconic "dress" watch is the *Calatrava 3919*. I have one in YG that I wear with a dinner jacket almost exclusively but it could certainly be worn at almost any time. I am currently looking at the *Calatrava 5115* RG, another classic look. Very simple, less is more. Complicated watches seem to be more accepted in business these days, so the Annual Calendar and the World Time may interest you.

There is a perception that PP stands alone as the worlds finest maker. IMO, PP has several peers.


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## Kai (Jul 30, 2003)

It's hard to go wrong with any of the Patek Calatrava models.

I've had a hobnail case Calatrava "travel time" dual time zone watch for many years. It is simple, slim, elegant, reliable. For me, it's the perfect business watch.


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## sam (Sep 5, 2004)

I have inhereted two PPs from my father: a Caltrava , and a Gondolo series. I plan to buy the Golden Elipse with the blue face this year. To me, that's the iconic Patek. IMHO, Patek is worth every penny. That can't be said about most things we discuss on this forum. Its the kind of thing that becomes a family heirloom. The other heavy hitter in this category of watches is Breguet. From an investment standpoint, Pateks often double and triple in value within ten to fifteen years. I can't say that about any of my investments in my IRA.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Do you mean

You never really own a Patek Philippe...

... you simply take care of it for the next generation? 




> quote:_Originally posted by sam_
> 
> I have inhereted two PPs from my father: a Caltrava , and a Gondolo series. I plan to buy the Golden Elipse with the blue face this year. To me, that's the iconic Patek. IMHO, Patek is worth every penny. That can't be said about most things we discuss on this forum. Its the kind of thing that becomes a family heirloom. The other heavy hitter in this category of watches is Breguet. From an investment standpoint, Pateks often double and triple in value within ten to fifteen years. I can't say that about any of my investments in my IRA.


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## sam (Sep 5, 2004)

I guess so! []



> quote:_Originally posted by Cantabrigian_
> 
> Do you mean
> 
> ...


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## William Massena (Mar 20, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Syringemouth_
> 
> I am considering a new watch. I would like to know if any of you own a Patek Philippe? How is the quality? What is the best one for business? Any information including models would be helpful. [^]


Go on the Patek forum at www.patek.com; narrow down your choice. then visit a n authorized dealer and ask tons of Q. Finally, go to Timezone.com; you have tons of knowleadgeable people who will answer your questions. Treat the purchase as if you were buying a car, unlike suits watches in this league last forever. Be warned the entry level Patek is now a retail of $10K.



> quote:_Originally posted by iammatt_
> 
> I prefer Lange at that level of watch. Actually, IMO they are the only two watches at that level, and I strongly prefer Lange.


I wish it was that simple....

W.


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## Boris (Aug 4, 2005)

I own a Vacheron Constantin Retrograde. I had considered the larger Patek Calatrava (#5117) with the hobnail bezel as my next watch. Until I had a problem with the Vacheron and found that the after sale servicing (god forbid) time is ridiculous. Even worse for the Pateks (from people that I know that own them). Although Vacheron replaced my watch I still rarely wear it. The one thing you should know about these watches is that they are quite sensitive and fragile. Dress watch means just that. Dress only. Fortunately I also own a Rolex that I bought in 1997 that I have never had a days worth of problem with. Wear it to the beach, in the water, dress, etc. etc.. Pateks are beautiful watches but...


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## manicturncoat (Oct 4, 2004)

I have a Patek Gondolo 5010 and I think that the quality is incredible. For business, I would recommend, either the Calatrava or Gondolo lines.


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## indylion (Feb 28, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Syringemouth_
> 
> I am considering a new watch. I would like to know if any of you own a Patek Philippe? How is the quality? What is the best one for business? Any information including models would be helpful. [^]


With the shoes you wear, a Patek Philipe watch is a must.

"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten" Stefano Bemer


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## norcaltransplant (Jan 13, 2004)

Lange and Patek are two completely different beasts. The first is decidedly German and the latter is an iconic Swiss manufacturer. In the 10k price range, I would be tempted to go with the base Patek Caltrava or a used-JLC Moonphase Reverso in RG. In the 20-30k range, both Jacquet Droz and FP Journe make beautiful timepieces.


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## G-man (Jul 6, 2005)

I own a Calatrava 5026 REF. Its a beautiful watch that I fell in love with after seeing it in the window of the Patek store in London. My wife, unbeknownst to me went back to the store and purchased it for my birthday. It was extremely expensive for a non-complication watch but I love it and wear it most every day. Would I have spent the money on myself? I doubt it. But what a great gift! Its now about 10 years old and I have never had any problems.


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## Samthedog (Feb 27, 2006)

You an't go wrong with a Patek. Ihave both a vintage Calatrava (Ref 96)as well as a langematik. Patek and Lange are, in my judgement, unquestionable the two finest manufacturers. You would love to own either. Some feel the new Calatrava (which is bigger) is less desirable. The Lange 1815 is a beautiful watch.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Syringemouth_
> 
> I am considering a new watch. I would like to know if any of you own a Patek *Philippe*? How is the quality? What is the best one for business? Any information including models would be helpful. [^]


If you would allow me to substitute Patek with Dufour, then I would recommend the Simplicity. Some would say that these two Phillipe's are not even in the same league.


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## William Massena (Mar 20, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Tomasso_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Iammatt comparing Patek with Lange is like comparing Huntsman and Rubinacci, and you do one better; comparing Dufour to patek is like comparing Kabbaz and Charvet. Two absolutely different animals. The Dufour simplicity has a two year waiting list and with a price at around 50,000 Sfr, one cost about the price of 3 similar Patek.

I would argue that there are maybe 250 people in the World who are not watchmakers and would appreciate and understand the difference.

Dufour is not a brand, Philippe is the nicest guy in the World, and I know him fairly well, but he does claim to be an artisan and nothing much else.

See you at Basel

William


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by William Massena_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't think of comparing the two, I was simply offering Syringemouth an option, in the event that he just HAD to have *Phillippe* written on the face. And, maybe to give PP a little tweak.


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by iammatt_
> 
> I prefer Lange at that level of watch. Actually, IMO they are the only two watches at that level, and I strongly prefer Lange.


There is also Vacheron and Audemars even though those two are somewhat overshadowed by their cousin, Patek Phillipe.

I tried on a Lange last week, and it was absolutely large on my wrist, really quite huge.

I actually prefered the Lange Woman's Model when I tried that on.

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## William Massena (Mar 20, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Tomasso_
> [I wouldn't think of comparing the two, I was simply offering Syringemouth an option, in the event that he just HAD to have *Phillippe* written on the face. And, maybe to give PP a little tweak.


My experience with internet fora, is that we should always keep it simple, especially when answering someone who is asking for help and direction.

William


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## EU-Flaneur (Jul 30, 2005)

Like others I also own a vintage Patek Calatrava and I can assure that it is one of the finest watches made. One does pay for the name but....


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## kidkim2 (May 31, 2004)

I, too, am a Patek-ite. Mine is fifty-seven years old, purchased five years ago. It constantly elicits admiring, envious comment--which I am not above enjoying.

I paid top dollar. Best expenditure I ever made.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

I do not own one but they are very very good watches. Of course they are very expensive watches as well. For my purposes I can get a lot of watch for less money, but if money were no object I woud look at these closely, but there are other brands I would look at as well.

guit


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## shoefan (Oct 30, 2003)

I own a PP 3802/200 (Calatrava automatic with date and second hand, hobnail bezel). It is a superb watch. I think the hobnail-bezelled Calatrava's are the best PP for business -- classic, understated, yet elegant.

Of course, there are many other wonderful PP's, but they do get more expensive quickly. And, you do pay for the name, but at least the quality is there.

I also own a Breguet, a Cartier, a JLC, and various other watches, but I think the PP is the best watch I own, though I really like the Breguet and JLC as well.

I don't entirely agree with the statement as to these watches' delicacy. I wore my Patek every day for quite a few years and never had any significant problems. It also keeps superb time.

The other watches I have considered include a Lange 1 in the smaller size, and a PP Ref. 5000 (a limited edition watch in white gold). But, I just haven't been willing to part with the necessary money to buy them.

If one has a smaller wrist, as I do, I find the regular Lange 1's to be too large. The current fashion is for watches to be getting bigger and bigger, but I personally do not care for this look. The good news is that, if you want a smaller watch, these smaller sizes are in lesser demand in auctions and in the used watch market. 

You do need to know that maintaining a high-grade watch is not cheap. I had my Patek serviced a few years ago (standard overhaul, plus a new strap and crystal), and I believe the total cost was around $750 - $900. I think the watch companies recommend the servicing every 3 years, although this frequency may be not quite necessary;still, between the servicing and replacing a worn out strap, they ain't cheap to own.

I would not necessarily purchase a watch new; the resale market for watches can provide quite a bargain. You do need to deal with a reputable person/company, however. I bought my PP and Breguet from the leading used watch dealer in London, who is right down the street from Asprey, as well as having a second location in Burlington Arcade. He's a great guy and totally honest. There is also the auction route, including Antiquorum, Sotheby's, and Christies. Theses can offer good deals, though condition can be an issue. I prefer Antiquorum, as they are specialists in watches and, from what I've heard, stand behind their assessments.


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## coatandthai (Jan 18, 2004)

My Patek 5055


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## kidkim2 (May 31, 2004)

Wow!


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by coatandthai_
> 
> My Patek 5055


Now that is elegant. Well done!

Constantly Improving my Sartorial Style


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes, Pateks are expensive, but I believe the money is all in the watch, not in the name. Year after year, decade after decade, Pateks always lead the pack at auction because of their incomparable quality. That said, they generally are a little less visually stunning than some other brands; unlike some of their wannabe rivals, they don't shout their presence across the room. They are simply, quietly, understatedly the very best there is.

Esse Quam Videre


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

Patek leads the price route partially because of the fact that the company itself bids on its own timepieces a auction which drive up the prices considering that a large company lik Patek has almost unlimited resources privae individuals do not have.

You cannot find a 29mm round watch new these days.

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

I collect watches and I currently have in my collection 2 Patek Philippe watches (Gondolo 5019 in Rose gold and Calatrava 5120 in White gold.) I bought them for the elegant simplicity they exude.

______________________________________
Elegant minimalism and stealth wealth appeal.


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## shoefetish (Jan 15, 2006)

Wearing a Patek Golden Ellipse with blue dial right now. Owned a Patek 3565 but sold it as it was under utilised - the attached gold bracelet was a bit of an overkill I thought. These are earlier models when PP production was relatively low.
There are other watches of the same caliber (pun unintended) as a PP.
Vacheron, Audemars, Blancpain, Brequet, JLC, etc.
It must be remembered that Patek has used JLC's calibres in the past. Though PP doesn't advertise it, ETA movements are bought in and reworked by them. Their quartz movement is similar to the ETA 955.412.
At the end of the day a lot of what you pay for goes for branding. For example Audemars used to tout their calibre 2003 as the thinnest mechanical handwound movement for some time. But VC and Chopard had similar movements. I own the Chopard that cost me 2/3 the price of the Audemars.
Another example is Rolex who claim their watches take a year to make. 1 million watches per year and 3,000 watch making staff. Even if the staff worked 365 days a year its about 2,700 watches a day, everyday. Makes you wonder.
An interview with the President of ETA states that ETA parts are outsourced, some to China. So your prestige swiss watch may contain parts of dubious origin. explains what constitutes a Swiss Made watch.
Sorry for being long winded. But with today's globalised marketing an educated decision is important if you want to get the best bang for your buck. Its only after buying some expensive watches that I did some serious study:-(
All the best with your purchase Syringemouth.


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

I have the Patek Calatrava 5120 in white gold. It is discreet and appropriate with the most casual or formal dress. It is exquisitely made and a sheer delight aesthetically and mechanically.

-------------------------------------------------
God gave us women; the Devil gave them corsets.
- French proverb


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## cpac (Mar 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Syringemouth_
> 
> I am considering a new watch. I would like to know if any of you own a Patek Philippe? How is the quality? What is the best one for business? Any information including models would be helpful. [^]


This is very much like saying:

"I am considering buying a new suit. I would like to know if any of you own a Kiton? How is the quality? What is the best one for business? Any information including models would be helpful."

Patek and Lange are probably the two nicest brands out there, quality is beyond reproach.

For that level of money, I'd suggest visiting either Timezone.com or ThePurists.com and asking the experts there for opinions. Those forum are to watches what AskAndy is to clothing.

*------------
cpac*


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## Syringemouth (Aug 24, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by dopey_
> 
> Syringemouth:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be asking this question if I was just going to let the watch sit in a glass case and never wear it.  I currently own one watch a Rolex Explorer II and I love it it is just *SO* big and it is more sporty than anything. I think Patek is a very elegant watch and I need a dressier watch. I want something that is going to last for years to come so why not?


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## Mute (Apr 3, 2005)

For your first Patek, I recommend something conservative and timeless like a 3919. Mine is in WG (have never been a fan of YG).


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by LabelKing_
> 
> Patek leads the price route partially because of the fact that the company itself bids on its own timepieces a auction which drive up the prices considering that a large company lik Patek has almost unlimited resources privae individuals do not have.
> 
> ...


This is a myth that makes the rounds from time to time. The only watches that Patek bids on at auction are the extremely rare pieces they want for their museum, arguably the finest collection of timepieces in the world. I've collected Pateks for over 20 years, most of them bought at auction, and on only one occasion have I found myself bidding against the Patek people, for a stainless steel ref. 96 Calatrava from the 1930s (most non-sporting Pateks are much rarer in stainless than in gold). Pateks hold their value at auction simply because they are the most desirable watch in the world, values which certainly need no artifical propping up by the company.

Esse Quam Videre


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

I feel there is some inflation going on with the firm since the exact same quality watches from Vacheron and Audemars are much lower in price, probably less so for Vacheron as they hold the title of oldest watchmaker but certainly for Audemars.

Although when the firm bids on its own, indeed very rare watches, that drives up the general prices as well since people see a sort of desire for the name.

I have seen Audemars triple date moonphases for only $3000.

Those three watche firms have exactly the same quality and level of finish. Although at one point Vacheron eschewed the Genva Seal, saying that the quality of their work should speak for themselves.

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## Syringemouth (Aug 24, 2005)

What do you think of the Calattrava 5196 in platinum?

https://www.patek.com/


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Syringemouth_
> 
> What do you think of the Calattrava 5196 in platinum?
> 
> https://www.patek.com/


I prefer the 5127 in WG. I have a platinum watch, and sometimes often I wonder why I went with platinum instead of WG.


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## gregp (Aug 11, 2005)

I recently examined the 5196 in white gold at Govberg in Philadelphia. It is simply stunning: understated and flawless. It is neither too small for a contemporary watch nor large to the point of being unwearable. The salesperson indicated that it was her favorite watch that they carried and I do not blame her.


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## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

I own a Patek 3590. It is beautiful. The quality is superb. I suggest you buy what you love and can afford. There is nothing better IMHO.


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## sysdoc (Dec 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by LabelKing_
> Those three watche firms have exactly the same quality and level of finish. Although at one point Vacheron eschewed the Genva Seal, saying that the quality of their work should speak for themselves.


Before William Massena chimes in with the same issue, I'd like to point out that the above statement is unfortunately just plain wrong.

AP is situated in Le Brassus in the Valle de Joux and can't therefore get the Geneva Seal. Besides, AP's finishing would not qualify for the PoinÃ§on de GenÃ¨ve.

Vacheron is located in Geneva and does finish most of their watches according to the rules for the PoinÃ§on de GenÃ¨ve. Yet, there is one watch that shows rather obviously that VC is not on the same page as Patek when it comes to the finishing and fine tuning of a movement. It's VC's Malte Chronograph Perpetual Calendar (Ref. 47112) which uses the same Nouvelle Lemania movement as Patek's former (and lovely) Ref. 3970 and today's Ref. 5970. Both movements carry the PoinÃ§on de GenÃ¨ve, but you will see that the 3970/5970 Patek-finished version is a good bit more sophisticated.

I know people who own both watches, but I think that owning the beautiful Patek Ref.3970 makes coveting the VC Ref.47112 almost impossible.

All in all, I used to be more of a Lange fan and still own more Langes than Pateks, but I have recently changed my mind. I'm still dreaming of Patek's Ref.5959, which blows Lange's huge and butt-ugly "Double Split" out of the water.


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by sysdoc_
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I've never really owned or handled to a familiar extent the three firms' modern watches, however, from what I've experienced with their vintage pieces all three have the same quality and level of finish.

That is to say, Audemars has a slightly "softer" finish than Vacheron or Patek, precisely because they are located in the Brassus region. I didn't say that Audemars could contend for the Geneva Seal, I only mentioned that Vacheron in the '30s to '50s never really went for the Geneva Seal as much as Patek did.

As for Patek's level of finish I am quite sure their modern items are highly finished and well-made, however it is worth noting that at one point Patek used Niton movements that they did not finish as in the cases like how they would finish LeCoultre ebauches. Niton was well-known for producing jump hour watches.

Lange's finishing is quite superb, very German, what with their quarter plates although the English used that too and IWC.

There is a reason that Patek, Vacheron and Audemars were known as The Big Three.

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## William Massena (Mar 20, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by sysdoc_
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Great post nothing much to add

The geneva seal can only be offered within the Canton of Geneva, AFAIK, only Patek, Dubuis, and VC receive it but a few more such as FP journe could technically get it but could not care less. Some such as Chopard did receive it on some specific models. My honest opinion is that the seal creates somewhat of a standard but it is not that hard to get a mvt to these technical and physical specs.

I've owned a 3970, 5070, a VC 47112, a Dubuis chronograph and a 5970. The VC finish is as good as the Patek but the feel is totally different. The activation of the chrono pusher, the reset were much smoother on the Patek, especially the 5970. However the smoothest moderrn chrono is the datograph, the 5970 is not far behind. I can't wait to try the 5960. VC case and dial are not even close in details and workmanship and that what makes a Patek such a great watch. The 5070 in YG is a killer watch and worth at least 2 VC.

Finally, you are absolutely right. The Double split is really ugly.

_Edited to correct a sentence_


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## LabelKing (Sep 3, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by William Massena_
> 
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What do you think about the three firms' vintage watches and the quality of their workmanship?

I was comparing the three in context of what I have seen, which is almost exclusively vintage.

I like Vacheron's cases by Verger Freres. Patek's modern watchcase designs aren't particularly compelling, in my opinion. They all seem too conservative.

As for chronographs, here is a beautiful example:

*'Naturally, love's the most distant possibility.'*

*Georges Bataille*


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## Don Goldstein (Dec 25, 2005)

If you ask 9 out of 10 people who don't know a lot about watches what is the best watch made, they would say Rolex. If you ask 9 out of 10 people who do know a lot about watches what is the best watch made, they would say Patek Philippe. Their watches always do the best in auctions. They retain their value. Many of the more reputable watch companies have been sold to companies like Swatch but Patek has not. If you can afford a Patek, you really can't go wrong.


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## Michaelgmd (Jul 14, 2005)

I've owned a number of Pateks, Vacherons, and Audemars in my time.
And between those, the Pateks have been my favorites.

Now I only own two, a Vacheron Overseas (new model) to wear on vacations which involve swimming, and a Journe Chronometer Souveraine which I consider to be even more beautiful than all the Pateks I've owned. My advice, however, is to NOT go to a dealer who won't discount. There are a number of dealers that I've dealt with who sell new or slightly worn watches from collectors at prices far below retail and these are real watches, not copies. European Watch in Boston, or Feel Good Watches in Scottsdale are two sources for pre-owned watches well below retail. 
You can trust either of these dealers. I think that Ira Schneider at Feelgood has a greater selection.

MAG


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## shoefetish (Jan 15, 2006)

Unless one buys a watch with an exhibition back the movement can't be seen (you can go kamakazi and open the case back yourself).
Only seen the inards of my watches when sent in for a CLA (clean,lubrication, adjustment). As to the Geneva Seal some companies just don't want to take that route. Like Chronometers. The Omega Speedmaster is not a certified chronometer but was the only one of 12 selected brands to make it to the moon.

The various rarified brands (eg. PP, Audemars, VC, etc) do seem to have a number of similar designs so its down to personal taste. For watch lovers its a case of having something from as many top brands as possible.

As for any watch, including Patek, appreciating in value that's only true if the watch is a limited edition/run or bought pre-owned in the first place. Factoring in inflation and $ value at time of purchase may not make the purchase very lucrative in the long run. Most times price appreciation is because of periodic price increases by the producers.

BTW, RIP hope you were successful in the auction. The 96 is sooooo beautiful.


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## Blackie (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi William,

Could you please direct me to a grey market dealer who can aid me in getting a PP at a really cheap price.......:icon_smile:

Maniac salutes,

Johan


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Syringemouth said:


> What do you think of the Calattrava 5196 in platinum?
> 
> https://www.patek.com/


I'm not a watch guy, but just on aesthetics I'd prefer one of the other 5196s. The numerals ruin the look on that particular model, IMO.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Blackie said:


> Hi William,
> 
> Could you please direct me to a grey market dealer who can aid me in getting a PP at a really cheap price.......:icon_smile:
> 
> ...


See other PP thread--and beware any grey market dealer. I've seen exactwatches.com replicas, I know next to nothing about watches, but I would be easily fooled. Unlike clothes most of us don't buy a watch frequently enough to know what is likely a knock-off.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

cdavant said:


> See other PP thread--and beware any grey market dealer. I've seen exactwatches.com replicas, I know next to nothing about watches, but I would be easily fooled. Unlike clothes most of us don't buy a watch frequently enough to know what is likely a knock-off.


I checked the site and the only brand that looks close to the originals is Rolex (and those may be be pictures of the originals). All other brands (PP, IWC. Lange) were obviously fakes. Anybody with a picture of a real thing would be able to tell the difference.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

If the smallish size ( It is only 30.5mm in diameter) and the lack of water resistance are not a problem for you, go with a vintage Patek such as the Calatrava ref: 96, which is THE iconic Patek.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

hreljan said:


> I checked the site and the only brand that looks close to the originals is Rolex (and those may be be pictures of the originals). All other brands (PP, IWC. Lange) were obviously fakes. Anybody with a picture of a real thing would be able to tell the difference.


Perhaps the fakes from that website. Be very aware, however, that there are many replica watches out there that fool some of the most sophisticated watch buyers. When you are dealing with something worth many thousands of dollars, it is worth someone's time and effort to make a very, very realistic fake, right down to the correct serial numbers and fake papers.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

shoefetish said:


> The Omega Speedmaster is not a certified chronometer but was the only one of 12 selected brands to make it to the moon.


IIRC, one of the main reasons the Speedmaster was chosen is that most, if not all, the competing watches were automatics which will not wind in a no-gravity situation.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

hreljan said:


> I checked the site and the only brand that looks close to the originals is Rolex (and those may be be pictures of the originals). All other brands (PP, IWC. Lange) were obviously fakes. Anybody with a picture of a real thing would be able to tell the difference.


I have no problem steering clear of guys with rolls of watches--but how about thrift shop and yard sale watches? I know about the sweep second hand on Rolex, but are there guides to authenticating watches? My mother was about to donate my Dad's Movado 1955 bumper automatic along with his clothes after he died and someone would have picked it up for five bucks.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

rip said:


> Perhaps the fakes from that website. Be very aware, however, that there are many replica watches out there that fool some of the most sophisticated watch buyers. When you are dealing with something worth many thousands of dollars, it is worth someone's time and effort to make a very, very realistic fake, right down to the correct serial numbers and fake papers.


You are absolutely right. I have seen Rolex fakes, that are indistinguishable from real watches from the outside. That level of replication is very rare for other brands (I am sure that some of them do exist...).


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

cdavant said:


> I have no problem steering clear of guys with rolls of watches--but how about thrift shop and yard sale watches? I know about the sweep second hand on Rolex, but are there guides to authenticating watches? My mother was about to donate my Dad's Movado 1955 bumper automatic along with his clothes after he died and someone would have picked it up for five bucks.


Please don't use the "sweep second hand" as a judge of authenticity. That caveat stems from the days when most fakes were quartz watches with their once-a-second ticking; that is simply no longer the case. Many, if not most, replica watches now have self-winding mechanical movements that very accurately mimic the second hand sweep of the real thing.

There are a few guides to authenticating watches, but none of them are adequate substitutes for the experience of handling lots of fine watches. There is a feel to a fine timepiece, a "fit and finish" that simply eludes lesser manufacturers, and is certainly beyond the capabilities of the replica makers. It shows up in some of the simplest things, like winding the watch, pulling or pushing the crown or setting the time. It should be silky smooth, as you would imagine perfectly meshed gears to be.

Visit as many fine watch dealers as will let you actually handle their watches. If you can convince them that you are actually in the market for a very high-end watch such as a Patek or Lange, and you are trying to ascertain the differences between them, they might even let you wind them (a very little bit)


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## scwtlover (Nov 12, 2008)

I second the suggestion of consulting European Watch Co. And if PP and the like are out of your league, you may want to consider Zenith.


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## damon54 (Dec 12, 2007)

I do not own a Patek but have a somewhat funny story.

Had an Italian friend come visit Dallas who felt he needed to do 2 things while in Texas.

1) Purchase some odd colored Cowboy Boots
2) Ride a mechanical Bull

When I got him out to a properly equipped nightclub the guy manning the bull told him "$10.00 bucks & take your watch off". Carmine tried to hand him a 20 Euro note & was refused so I got a $10.00 out of my wallet.

Carmine pitched me his Patek just as the Cowboy mentioned something to the effect of what a freeloader this guy was. Did not have the patience to tell him the watch was worth more than any 2 trucks in the parking lot that night.


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## adamb (Sep 10, 2006)

William Massena said:


> My experience with internet fora, is that we should always keep it simple, especially when answering someone who is asking for help and direction.
> 
> William


Surely, then, one might have suggested something from Timex? (I eschew emoticons, but of course an instance is implied here.)

adam

--


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## gbinc1 (Aug 18, 2013)

I am a watchmaker and have serviced the Patek Phillipe standard wind timepiece movement #215. It is truley an exsqusite mechanism. The engineers thought this out well, everything makes sense from a watchmakers vantage and the timekeeping is excellent. I recommend the Patek. 
g. barrow


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## TsAr (Mar 21, 2013)

A question for watch experts...Apart from Patek Philippe what other brands qualify for Geneva Seal?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

One of the best watches in the world but you're paying a lot just for the name. You can get just as good a watch in an Oris or an Omega for a fraction of the price.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> One of the best watches in the world but you're paying a lot just for the name. You can get just as good a watch in an Oris or an Omega for a fraction of the price.


IMO, Patek is in a different league. Those aren't as good...


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

It generally runs against my principles to participate in a 7 year old thread necro, but suggesting an equivalence between Patek and Oris is quite spectacularly uninformed.


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## Essential (Mar 20, 2012)

_Except from "All that Glitters," by: Clancy Martin._

"What about Patek?" I ask him.

This is an unkind question. Patek Philippe, founded in the late nineteenth century not by the Swiss but by two Poles, is the ne plus ultra of Swiss watches: unlike most companies, they make all their own movements, and they have perfected the art of elaborate complications, mechanisms within the watch that tell the phases of the moon, for example, or chime with different tones on the quarter hour, half hour, and hour. In 2008, a Patek Sky Moon Tourbillon was auctioned for $1.49 million, the highest price ever paid for a modern wristwatch (and bear in mind that this watch was produced by an ongoing concern that can reproduce it - the piece was not unique).

"Patek Philippe is the Rolls-Royce among Rolls-Royces," he says, luxuriantly rolling his r's. "Of course I would like to say that we compete with Patek Philippe, but that is"-he gestures abruptly, as though pulling open a shower curtain-"that is a dream. No one competes with them."


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

RogerP said:


> but suggesting an equivalence between Patek and Oris is quite spectacularly uninformed.


Actually as a watch collector of many years I am very well informed and well read on the whole subject of quality watches. I said "just as good" and they are, after all, they all tell the time in the same way and just as well.

And in my opinion, and it is an opinion and a matter of taste when it comes to watches, Oris and Omega are as elegant as Pateks, some models even more so.


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## TradThrifter (Oct 22, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> And in my opinion, and it is an opinion and a matter of taste when it comes to watches, Oris and Omega are as elegant as Pateks, some models even more so.


Some would consider this outright blasphemy. You can not disrupt the order of the holy trinity - AP, PP, VC.

lol I see what you're saying though.


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## mhdena (Jan 4, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> One of the best watches in the world but you're paying a lot just for the name. You can get just as good a watch in an Oris or an Omega for a fraction of the price.


You're bank account will be thankful if an Oris or Omega satisfies you to the point you don't need to go further than those.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

mhdena said:


> You're bank account will be thankful if an Oris or Omega satisfies you to the point you don't need to go further than those.


Exactly. I do not possess the wealth that some of the members here clearly do. I've been lusting after a Big Crown Oris for years, I will eventually buy one...I hope.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

:biggrin: Holy Trinity....hhmmm....not so sure the watchmakers of the world would agree with that.

But it does all come down to taste. 
There are a couple of PPs & VCs in their current collections that I like, but most of them seem quite fussy & delicate and way too expensive for my pocket.


I'd list my fav brands as:

Oris, Longines, GP 

Then in a-z order only:

B et M, B & R, Blancpain, Certina, GP, Hamilton, Jacques Lemans, J Le C, Omega, Panerai, Revue Thommen.


Some of the watches I own: two vintage Revue watches (both late 1940s officers watches, sub-second, luminous), a Certina Argonaut (1960s), a Tell (Swiss 1950s) a Wendia (1930s Swiss watch for the Swedish officers market with sub-second, luminous ) a Siduna (1940s also a Swiss watch for the Swedish officers market with sub-second, luminous) a Poljot (1960s Russian) a Vostok Kommandirskie (1970s Soviet military, luminous).


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Actually as a watch collector of many years I am very well informed and well read on the whole subject of quality watches. I said "just as good" and they are, after all, they all tell the time in the same way and just as well.
> 
> And in my opinion, and it is an opinion and a matter of taste when it comes to watches, Oris and Omega are as elegant as Pateks, some models even more so.


A Kia is just as good as a Bentley - they both get you to the store. A Wallmart tie is just as good a Brioni - they both keep your collar closed. Crocs are just as good as Edward Green - they both keep your feet off the pavement. All that separates them rests upon personal opinion and taste. Got it.

If you really don't know what separates Oris from Patek in terms of quality then you need to read more, or read better source material. I suspect both.


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## jc1305us (Jan 13, 2009)

Patek is quite simply the top of the line wristwatch in the world IMO. I believe Rolex sells more watches in one year than Patel has sold in their history.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

RogerP said:


> If you really don't know what separates Oris from Patek in terms of quality then you need to read more, or read better source material. I suspect both.


'

You really are quite unnecessarily rude aren't you!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

jc1305us said:


> Patek is quite simply the top of the line wristwatch in the world IMO.


Granted, but my point is that I don't think they are the best looking; and as appearance is everything in a watch I wouldn't want one.


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## Neill (Jul 10, 2013)

Patek are lovely watches, and they are masters of marketing, "You never really own a Patek...." etc. Speaking personally, if I could afford one I'd also look a Jaeger leCoutre etc, there's a lot of choice in that price range. If money was no object, then it would either be a Roger Smith or McGonigle Brothers hand made piece.

Sadly though, money is an object. I do own a Panerai, it needs repair and that needs saving for. My everyday watch is a delight to me though. It's from Robert Loomes in Stamford, Lincolnshire, one of only a hundred and a bargain at the price.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

jc1305us said:


> Patek is quite simply the top of the line wristwatch in the world IMO. I believe Rolex sells more watches in one year than Patel has sold in their history.


Correct on the first point, and as Rolex churns out a million watches a year, you are very likely correct on the second point.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Neill said:


> Patek are lovely watches, and they are masters of marketing, "You never really own a Patek...." etc. Speaking personally, if I could afford one I'd also look a Jaeger leCoutre etc, there's a lot of choice in that price range. If money was no object, then it would either be a Roger Smith or McGonigle Brothers hand made piece.
> 
> Sadly though, money is an object. I do own a Panerai, it needs repair and that needs saving for. My everyday watch is a delight to me though. It's from Robert Loomes in Stamford, Lincolnshire, one of only a hundred and a bargain at the price.


I'm with you on JLC, though they are attainable for a good deal less than Patek. Glashutte Original is another brand I would recommend. Of course, Oris is just as good..... I'd love to see a pic of your Robert Loomes.


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## Neill (Jul 10, 2013)

RogerP said:


> I'm with you on JLC, though they are attainable for a good deal less than Patek. Glashutte Original is another brand I would recommend. Of course, Oris is just as good..... I'd love to see a pic of your Robert Loomes.


I can do better, here's the link;

https://www.dialrestorer.co.uk/11.html

I've got the chronograph. It's actually built around a seagull movement I believe, and I have to say it's a cracking watch. Their Robin watch is even nicer, but a bit pricey for me.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

^^^ Nice - very classic overall aesthetics.


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