# Floyd Did It!



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

This was a great tour. Tons of drama, good sprinting, GREAT climbing. I think we have a worthy champion this year, I hope his hip surgery goes well!


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

How long will it be before someone accuses him of cheating? You just know someone will.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

And here we go. Floyd allegedly failed a drug test:

https://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/news/story?id=2531225


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Yup, caught that this morning. I'll wait for the B test.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

I thought his mother's statement was refreshingly fair and honest.


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## Full Canvas (Feb 16, 2006)

*Is Anyone Really Surprised by the French?*

Leave it to the French to tell an American he has *too much testosterone*! :icon_smile_big:

For all those years, they tried to nail Lance Armstrong. It's the same thing all over again with Floyd Landis.

Let's see the results of the second sample's analysis.

Reading the mother's statement makes me feel she already believes the charges.
_______________________________________


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

crs said:


> How long will it be before someone accuses him of cheating? You just know someone will.


Well I knew you lefty types were into astrology and tarot cards and all but good God man...

Just curious, going to vegas soon and was wondering who you like for the BCS championship this year? I'll be betting on OU, just want to know how much to bet.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

Ok, first as cynical as I am and believe there is the use of performance enhancers in pro cycling (Yes, I do beleve Lance was as dirty as the rest of them), I actually thought this year's Tour was "cleaner" than the past few years. 

There were quite a few of the big name riders who just didn't seem to have it. Too many "should have dones" just didn't get it done. Oh well, Landis looked good and seemed to show character after bonking.

Now they're saying he is dirty. Well, maybe there is some huge conspiracy group going around and causing angst to the top pro cyclists. Maybe this is just a big misunderstanding. Or maybe these guys just do what it takes to be a little bit better than the guy next to them.

I know it won't happen, but if Landis is proven to be positive on his B test, I'd have much more respect for him if he came out and said, "Yes, I did what I felt was necessary to win!" It won't. We don't praise people who admit their mistakes. We don't teach our children to be responsible for their own actions. There's 5 excuses for every problem and not one is "I did it on my own." 

Hopefully it all works out for Landis. If he is clean, I hope he gets vindicated. If he is dirty, I hope he violated.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Full Canvas said:


> For all those years, they tried to nail Lance Armstrong. It's the same thing all over again with Floyd Landis.


Yes of course. It's all a big anti-American conspiracy. Damn French. You just know those scientists always cheat on the drug tests, and just to incriminate Americans cyclists too. That's why you never see German or Italian stars tested positive. Oh wait...


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Étienne said:


> Yes of course. It's all a big anti-American conspiracy. Damn French. You just know those scientists always cheat on the drug tests, and just to incriminate Americans cyclists too. That's why you never see German or Italian stars tested positive. Oh wait...


Oh, why was it that we didn't see Ulrich in this years Tour?


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

The news yesterday sheds a little different light on the title of this thread, eh?

I hope he's not guilty, and the story in this morning's Times quotes an expert as saying that they should keep testing him, and if the ration of testosterone to epitostesterone doesn't change then that will indicate the ratio shown in his test is normal for him. Doesn't the fact that he was tested after each of his other stage wins, and no abnormal results were found, militate against this suggestion?

Does anyone know wether there is any reason to think the other possible causes he cited, use of thyroid medication or consumption of alcohol, could reasonably be expected to account for these results?


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> The news yesterday sheds a little different light on the title of this thread, eh?
> 
> I hope he's not guilty, and the story in this morning's Times quotes an expert as saying that they should keep testing him, and if the ration of testosterone to epitostesterone doesn't change then that will indicate the ratio shown in his test is normal for him. Doesn't the fact that he was tested after each of his other stage wins, and no abnormal results were found, militate against this suggestion?


So it would seem.



> Does anyone know wether there is any reason to think the other possible causes he cited, use of thyroid medication or consumption of alcohol, could reasonably be expected to account for these results?


Unlikely. Of course, that is why a split sample is kept, to control for unusual factors that might result in a false positive. In either event, I must say that the comments from Landis I have read appear remarkably mealy-mouthed - as they usually are when one has been found out. The only alleged drug "cheat" that I recall acting like an innocent man was Butch Reynolds, who tested positive some time after smashing Lee Evans' longstanding 400 meter record. Butch went ballistic and stayed ballistic for years, until he was allowed to compete again. I still think he was "guilty" but at least he made a good show of acting as if weren't.

On the other hand, I'm unconvinced that the use of performance enhancing drugs should be prohibited, at least at the highest levels of competition. I can't see how allowing their use would create more problems than does the the tedious cat and mouse game world-class athletes must play with their regulatory bodies.


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## Full Canvas (Feb 16, 2006)

Full Canvas said:


> _For all those years, they tried to nail Lance Armstrong. It's the same thing all over again with Floyd Landis._





Étienne said:


> Yes of course. It's all a big anti-American conspiracy. Damn French. You just know those scientists always cheat on the drug tests, and just to incriminate Americans cyclists too. That's why you never see German or Italian stars tested positive. Oh wait...


It's simply that American cyclists have recently dominated the event. The same antipathy would hold true for any unusually dominant individual or nationality in my opinion.

Don't take it so personally. France is France. I don't want to change it. Only the French want to change it. Regularly living in and for more than twenty-five years paying enough taxes on a sizeable number of hectares in Corsica to pay the salaries of many French sport officials, I feel confident with my statement.

The Belarusian cyclists didn't fare so well this year. :icon_smile: 
____________________________________


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Full Canvas said:


> The same antipathy would hold true for any unusually dominant individual or nationality in my opinion.


My point was that I don't really see how there is any antipathy at work here. Ulrich and many others have suffered from the same crackdown on drugs.


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

*He Did Indeed.*

However, I see no point in awarding the victory to the runner-up, as he was likely juiced as well. Landis' victory should simply be vacated: And starting next year, the riders should be allowed to use any performance-enhancing drug or drugs
they choose. That would be infinitely preferable to this kind of debacle.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I have come to despise bicyclists. You can't walk down the sidewalk, er Camino Real without some mounted unit of the reconquista peddling to the job unwanted by lazy americanos. At least a whopping 51% go in the same direction of traffic and some won't argue to much when you almost tag them turning a corner or into a driveway. And then there are those sardine schools of Lancius pedophilias- wannabeesius in their designer outfits and ALIEN helmets ignoring traffic signals en mass and screaming 'CAR!' as if it's some phenomenon on the roadways and their arrogant game of chicken as you try to pass 5 abreast. Try to escape on horseback and some mountain biker will come careening on top of you. They make me cheer on the Mountain Lion's.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

Kav said:


> I have come to despise bicyclists. You can't walk down the sidewalk, er Camino Real without some mounted unit of the reconquista peddling to the job unwanted by lazy americanos. At least a whopping 51% go in the same direction of traffic and some won't argue to much when you almost tag them turning a corner or into a driveway. And then there are those sardine schools of Lancius pedophilias- wannabeesius in their designer outfits and ALIEN helmets ignoring traffic signals en mass and screaming 'CAR!' as if it's some phenomenon on the roadways and their arrogant game of chicken as you try to pass 5 abreast. Try to escape on horseback and some mountain biker will come careening on top of you. They make me cheer on the Mountain Lion's.


Kav,
You need some assertiveness training, you need to learn to speak your mind. Keeping your feelings bottled up will only give you ulcers. Next time, don't hold back say exactly what you're feeling. =)

Oh by the way, I'm one of those guys in the alien helmets yelling car. I do obey traffic laws, to a degree.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

Its not that he tested positive that bugs me, becuase I honestly believe the large majority are using some type of performance enhancement. What I don't like are all of the off the wall excuses. The best has to be the I drank a beer and had a shot of whiskey. I'd really like to know how many top cyclists, while cometing in the Tour De France (in the past 20 years) have had a beer and a shot of whiskey after a hard stage? Especially a hard stage where you bonk as bad as he did? I'd have much more respect for him if he stood up and said, "I wanted to win, I did what I felt it took to win."


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Preach it!

What your morning commute needs is about 300 more vehicles--big SUVs, maybe--on the road instead of those pernicious bikes. That would solve everything.



Kav said:


> I have come to despise bicyclists. You can't walk down the sidewalk, er Camino Real without some mounted unit of the reconquista peddling to the job unwanted by lazy americanos. At least a whopping 51% go in the same direction of traffic and some won't argue to much when you almost tag them turning a corner or into a driveway. And then there are those sardine schools of Lancius pedophilias- wannabeesius in their designer outfits and ALIEN helmets ignoring traffic signals en mass and screaming 'CAR!' as if it's some phenomenon on the roadways and their arrogant game of chicken as you try to pass 5 abreast. Try to escape on horseback and some mountain biker will come careening on top of you. They make me cheer on the Mountain Lion's.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

BertieW, What we need is intact and covered by a thin veneer of asphalt. It's called the Red Line and was considered the finest city mass transit system of it's time. Bicycles indeed are 'appropriate technology.' But what is NOT appropriate is boorish and cavalier disregard for traffic laws because " I'm doing something healthy.' A bicycle knocking down a senior citizen on the sidewalk is just as devastating as that SUV taking out a spoke bundle of cyclists who don't want to break pace, change gears or brake because of a mere red light.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

Back on topic.....

I think that floyd, lance and the majority of the peleton use performance enhancing substances. Similar to the 99% of professional athletes and about the same percentages of olympians. What is hard to believe is how some of these guys come to get caught. Designer drugs are constantly being created to acheive top athletic performance and go undetected as well. The thing that confuses me about floyd's "test" is this.

Let me start off by saying im not a medical doctor but do have some knowledge of anabolic steriods. Everytime an athlete tests positive for testosterone it seems they all fall back on the same adage "I have a high natural test level" to explain their test results. 

From what I understand, when an individual injects exogenous testosterone into their body, the body's response is to shut down its own natural test production in an attempt to reach homeostasis. This in turn has an effect on the HTPA axis which is what most tests examine. Irregardless of the individuals test levels in the blood, abnormalities of the HTPA axis can only be a result of using exogenous testosterone. This leaves no room for arguements or explanations. 

The thing that strikes me as particularly odd about the allegations against Floyd are why any cyclist would take testosterone. Having competed as an amateur cyclist in the past I do not see how test would benefit any endurance athlete. Assuming he was using a long acting ester he would most certainly be experiencing bloating, weight gain and possibly even lethargy. I am aware that many cyclists in the past have doped or used plasma expanders but I did not think test would be of any benefit for a tour rider. 

As an American I did like seeing him on the pedestal but he wont be back again. Opinions vary but I think a true tour winner should dominate the competition and Floyd certainly did not. I'm a stickler for a good time trialer and all of Floyd's TT's this tour were unimpressive.

MrR


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

MrRogers said:


> Back on topic.....
> 
> I think that floyd, lance and the majority of the peleton use performance enhancing substances. Similar to the 99% of professional athletes and about the same percentages of olympians. What is hard to believe is how some of these guys come to get caught. Designer drugs are constantly being created to acheive top athletic performance and go undetected as well. The thing that confuses me about floyd's "test" is this.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you that I believe most of the professional cyclist (at least those contending for wins) are using some type of enhancers. The use of "something" has been in professional cycling since the 60's (at least the oldest that I've read about).

As far as what they are using and how it helps, I think that technology is above my head. The EPO is easily understandable, more red blood cells more oxygen. The testosterone is something different, I also don't understand how it benefits. Maybe it is some sort of cynergistic affect, based on other "stuff" they take?


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

D'accord.

'tis indeed a pity about mass transit's handling since its inception. A history worth revisiting to learn the details of the (comparative) demise.

Cheers.



Kav said:


> BertieW, What we need is intact and covered by a thin veneer of asphalt. It's called the Red Line and was considered the finest city mass transit system of it's time. Bicycles indeed are 'appropriate technology.' But what is NOT appropriate is boorish and cavalier disregard for traffic laws because " I'm doing something healthy.' A bicycle knocking down a senior citizen on the sidewalk is just as devastating as that SUV taking out a spoke bundle of cyclists who don't want to break pace, change gears or brake because of a mere red light.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Floyd did it!

Yup, he sure did!



Full Canvas said:


> Leave it to the French to tell an American he has *too much testosterone*! :icon_smile_big:


Leave it to the Americans to cheat.

Did I really just say that? Well, if the cap fits......


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gmac said:


> Floyd did it!
> 
> Yup, he sure did!
> 
> ...


Welcome back, glad to see you wasted no time poking your fingers in people's eyes. Before you continue on though, might I suggest you educate yourself on one of your fellow Scots, one Mr. David Millar?

If Floyd cheated, he certainly deserves what he gets. However, to make this an anti-US issue is just plain idiotic.


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## gmac (Aug 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> If Floyd cheated, he certainly deserves what he gets. However, to make this an anti-US issue is just plain idiotic.


Ah, but making it an anti-French matter is just fine with you?

I was merely responding to Full Canvas in a manner which he might comprehend. You, on the other hand, did not.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

gmac said:


> Ah, but making it an anti-French matter is just fine with you?
> 
> I was merely responding to Full Canvas in a manner which he might comprehend. You, on the other hand, did not.


If you can show me where I made it an anti-French matter, I would be more than happy to respond. Until then though, it would just be one of your usual rhetorical ploys.

Did you check out David Millar's doping history yet?

Edit: I went back and read FC's post. It would seem to be humour to me, albiet biting humour. The little smile icon is a good indicator there on that. Also, I have to say I indeed am mildly suspicious of the organization doing the testing, as they do seem to consistently break their own rules. A good example would be the identifiers used for Lance's stored 1999 sample and that Floyd's test results were released to the media before him. This is not anti-French, this is being mildly cynical of an organization that would seem to have its own flaws.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

bickering aside are they gonna make a decision about this or what???

Either hang the guy or let him go.... what is taking so long to decide???

MrR


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

Kav said:


> BertieW, What we need is intact and covered by a thin veneer of asphalt. It's called the Red Line and was considered the finest city mass transit system of it's time. Bicycles indeed are 'appropriate technology.' But what is NOT appropriate is boorish and cavalier disregard for traffic laws because " I'm doing something healthy.' A bicycle knocking down a senior citizen on the sidewalk is just as devastating as that SUV taking out a spoke bundle of cyclists who don't want to break pace, change gears or brake because of a mere red light.


Anyone who rides a bicycle on the sidewalk more than 1/2 a block needs to have a leg broken.

If they actually hurt someone else doing it, then kick their fookin teeth in after breaking said leg.

Pre-teens are exempt.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

GMAC, I was buying lunch today and stopped to chat with 3 Amnesty International members manning an information table. Well, maybe not 'manning' it, being 3 High School girls. They were impressed I connected their all black dresses with 'The Women In Black' and not merely Goths as another patron mumbled. At my age I was happy to impress them at all. Anyway, I stuffed a $20 I was saving for gasoline in their contributions jar, accepted some literature on the POC's they are actively working for and went my way. My point, GMAC, Is I've known of and supported A.I. long before discovering this forum. But, many forum members may not be so politically 'catholic.' Many forum members are going to think GMAC= A.I. and will blow off ' Women in Black' or round file the literature mailed at another acquaintance's suggestion. And that GMAC, is your accomplishment. Nobody says you can't state your opinion. But maybe, just maybe you should consider burning some indian sweetgrass instead of weathered cowpies while typing.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Thus sprach Petro.



petro said:


> Anyone who rides a bicycle on the sidewalk more than 1/2 a block needs to have a leg broken.
> 
> If they actually hurt someone else doing it, then kick their fookin teeth in after breaking said leg.
> 
> Pre-teens are exempt.


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## ccffm1 (Jul 31, 2005)

Lushington said:


> However, I see no point in awarding the victory to the runner-up, as he was likely juiced as well. Landis' victory should simply be vacated: And starting next year, the riders should be allowed to use any performance-enhancing drug or drugs
> they choose. That would be infinitely preferable to this kind of debacle.


This would be so wrong, mainly because of two reasons. 1) Let´s not forget that performance enhancers can be rather harmful. 2) Therefore, forcing sportsmen to use them just to be able to compete with others that are juiced as well is unethical and contravene any idea of sportsmanship, at least in my book.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

So I read that the TDF no longer considers floyd to be the champion. Since his contract is up I wonder if he will be signed by any other teams. 

I also read that floyd's father in law with whom he was very close commited suicide. Talk about having your ups and downs.

I dont agree with what others said about doing away with testing as this will force the small percentage of clean riders to jump on the wagon.

What a sad disgrace to the sport.

MrR


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

the vietnamese family next to me were out this morning. Their charming little girl just made her first solo ride without training wheels. So it wasn't the Tour de France with news coverage. But it was real.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

Kav said:


> the vietnamese family next to me were out this morning. Their charming little girl just made her first solo ride without training wheels. So it wasn't the Tour de France with news coverage. But it was real.


Too bad the pros can't go back to those days (in their hearts) when they were just happy to be able to ride a bike without training wheels.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm surprised that this isnt a topic of interest on AAAC since if I recall there are several riders and enthusiasts who regularly post.

O well, ill keep my comments to the cycling boards.

MrR


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Sorry Mr. Rogers, I have nothing to say of merit at this point, so I am saying nothing. Do I think Floyd might have done it? Yes. Do I trust the offical lab and French authorities? Nope, they have already proven they do not follow their own rules. So I am left in a quandry, not knowing if testing data is valid or bogus and just want to leave myself thinking of Floyd's wonderful comeback stage.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

MrRogers said:


> I'm surprised that this isnt a topic of interest on AAAC since if I recall there are several riders and enthusiasts who regularly post.
> 
> O well, ill keep my comments to the cycling boards.
> 
> MrR


Mr. Rogers,

As a long time cycling fan, all of the doping stories don't deter from my enjoyment of watching cycling. I will always watch the Tour (and the other races that OLN oops VS decides to show).

That said, as far as doping and cycling go, they are intertwined and I don't know the answer to get it out of the sport. I use the analogy of Nascar to make people (who don't follow cycling) understand. All of these pro riders are basically of the same calibre and ability level. Like with Nascar and all of the vehicles being basically the same, over the years people have tried different things (some of them have been against the rules) to make their car just a little bit faster. Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes they don't. The same has been going on for many years in cycling. Riders have been taking "stuff" to give them a bit of an edge.

I would like to think everyone is competing on an even playing ground. It would be nice for everyone to be clean, but there is too much money for the riders, teams and sponsors to make by winning, to keep drugs out of cycling (just my opinion).

Did Landis dope, yes he did. Has he doped previously, yes, but he's just been lucky to not have been caught. Do I trust the testing process, no. I don't know what controls are in place to guarantee there could be no chance for tampering. Do I believe there is some conspiracy theory by the French, to keep another "American" from wining, I don't want to believe it, but it is sure possible. Look at Eddie Mercx, he was punched in the stomach by a fan enroute to his 6th victory. He didn't win this tour, but finished it with a broken rib. I know Armstrong has commented about spitting and other minor things done to him by roadside fans. Could there be a larger conspiracy by the French governement to put "people" on the roadside to "tamper" with a cyclist, I think that is a bit extreme.

I just wish someone would step up and admit to it. Stop trying to make the fans think it was some disgruntled massuse who had an axe to grind and slipped the rider a "mickey." If you are pro rider and you know you're going to be tested, you'd better make damn sure what substances are being put in you. Because they want to win, they don't do that. And the skeptic in me believes they know exactly what they are doing. The problems happen when the steps they take to "mask" the drugs don't work properly and they get a positive test.

I'll end my ramblings now. Landis is guilty, he doped to win. Armstrong doped to win. We are a society of greedy people and that greed makes us do what ever we need to, to get what we want. Doping is across the board in all sports. We each need to make the decision to whether or not to continue watching and or supporting these sports.


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