# fabric and yarn count



## veepee (Mar 8, 2010)

ive been reading a lot about cotton and looking to buy my own cloth to make some shirts.

one thing that is stumping me is this equation on the yarn count:

for example : 80/2 is 80 two-ply

but what does it mean when it's 80/2 * 50?

or if the yarn count is 80 * 60, does it mean 80 warp * 60 weft?

what about 40*20/2?

thank you!


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## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

80/2 x 50/1 is yarn size
140 x 100 is the construction.
warp weft

i would stay away from this since it is wrinkle free. Unless you are very good at sewing. fabric will slip.

the second fabric must be an oxford cloth


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## veepee (Mar 8, 2010)

thanks for the info shirtmaven!

so was i correct in terms of 80/2 is equivalent to two-ply warp and 50/1 werth?

is this the same as some online retailer advertising their cloth as 80s 2-ply? (80/2 x 80/2 ?)


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## nanotech (Feb 24, 2011)

Shirtmaven said:


> 80/2 x 50/1 is yarn size
> 140 x 100 is the construction.
> warp weft


Shirtmaven, so when they say a shirt is 140's or 160's...is that referring to yarn count or construction? What does it mean for yarn size to be 80/2 x 50/1? I am assuming it means warp yarn size is 80/2 and the weft yarn size is 50/1? and /1 & /2 mean 1-ply or 2ply, but what does the "80" in 80/2 or or "50" in 50/1 mean?

How does this compare to the 140 x 100? Again I am assuming the 140 means 140 "yarns" per certain distance for the warp and 100 "yarns per certain distance" for the weft?

Thank you!


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

This is an old thread and we've covered this before. If you had your own copy of The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes now in PDF form you could have instantly looked up:

Yarn Counts:

Staple yarns are bought and sold by the pound, not by length. Sizes (or numbers) are used to express a relation between the weight of the raw fiber of staple yarns and the yarn length. Hanks are standard skeins of yarn (comprised of strands), used to gauge fineness in the worsted or metric system. 

One hank measures 560 yards and the number of Hank's in one-pound gauges relative fineness. 
For example:
40's quality yarn is actually 40 hanks which is 40 x 560 or 22,400 yards of yarn per pound--twice as "course" (less fine, smooth and dense) as 80's yarn which is 80 hanks or 80 x 560, equaling 44,800 yards of
yarn per pound. The higher the hanks number, the finer the yarn.​
Filament fibers weight is measured by a system called Denier. This measurement applies to all synthetic or manufactured fibers, and silk. This system works in reverse of the worsted or metric and the number increases with the coarseness of the yarns, so the lower the number, the finer the fiber. Numerically, a denier is the equivalent to the weight in grams of 9,000 meters of continuous filament fiber.

Making the right grade​
Yarn counts and wool grades are easily confused with each other! Yarn counts will often include talk of ply while wool grades will often mention "worsted". Yarn counts rarely climb above 80s and anything higher than 90 is impossible to spin whereas wool grades start at 80's and 90's.

*What does 2-ply 120 mean?*​
The numbers describing fabric refer to:
1. Yarn count - that's the ply part, such as "singles", "twists" and "ply". A single is one fiber or thread. Two-ply is two fibers twisted together. Using two or more fibers make the thread or yard stronger and more durable.​​

High count​: refers to fabric woven with a relatively high thread count, resulting in a dense, tight fabric. Thread count is the number of vertical (warp) and horizontal (weft) threads in 1 square inch of fabric. But the numbers can be deceptive - many manufacturers use a form of "thread count inflation," counting each double-ply strand of a thread twice. 


Ply yarns are two or more strands twisted together. Yarn is twisted to provide strength and smoothness. Most yarns used in clothing are plied yarns. Twisting together yarns of different tensions or diameters make complex yarns such as boucle and ratine.​
Twist is a term that applies to the number of turns and the direction that two yarns are turned during the manufacturing process. The yarn twist brings the fibers close together and makes them compact. It helps the fibers adhere to one another, increasing yarn strength. ​
The direction and amount of yarn twist helps determine appearance, performance, and durability of both yarns and the subsequent fabric or textile product. 

Single yarns may be twisted to the right (S twist) or to the left (Z twist). Generally, woolen and worsted yarns are S-twist, while cotton and flax yarns are typically Z-twist. Twist is generally expressed as turns per inch (tpi), turns per meter (tpm), or turns per centimeter (tpc).​
High twist: refers to yarn that are manufactured with a relatively high number of turns per inch. This may be done to increase the yarn strength or to give the fabric a crepe texture or hand.
​
2. The other number gives you the fabric grade. Super 100's, 120's, etc refer to the length in centimeters one woolen yarn can be stretched. It's a measurement of fineness. Also measured in microns. A micron is one-millionth of a meter, or one micrometer, which is approximately 1/25,000 of an inch. 

Longer yarn results in a more luxurious, finer hand and a lighter weight. ​
*Super*
Modern high-tech machines spin wool finer than it's ever been spun before! The super number or S number was set up as shorthand for describing the fineness of wool fibers not a quality ranking. The S-system (aka Worsted Count System) began in the 18th century. Finished yarn was coiled in 560-yard long loops called hanks. The S number indicated how many hanks could be made from a pound of wool.​
Now the S-number refers to the fineness of the wool as measured in microns or one-millionth of a meter. ​
For example:

SUPER NUMBER MICRONS
100 18.5
110 18.0
130 17.5
160 15.5 ​
But very high S-system number (Super 150, Super 200) wools don't guarantee the best garments. The high S fabrics are more difficult to tailor. Italian Tailors say the wool is "nervous". Since the material shifts so easily when it is sewn. Such wools wrinkle almost as much as linen. They are delicate and not as durable as less-fine wool. You can have good 15-micron wool or bad 15-micron wool. Ultimately it is the look and tailoring of the fabric that matter most, everything else is just a number.
Fineness is only one measure of quality. Length, and strength are also important. Length is vital since the longer the fiber the stronger the yarn that can be spun from it. Strength is critical because the yarn must be twisted very tightly to achieve a fine weave. ​
Weight:
Fabric weight for suits is measured in ounces per linear yard (36" x 60") of fabric. Tropical weights (6.5 to 8.5 oz.) are comfortable for summer wear. Mid-weight suits (9 to 10 oz.) are designated "year round" or favored for 10-month wear. Regular weight (11 to 13 oz.) is appropriate for fall and winter. Heavy weight (14 to 16 ounce) provides extra warmth but is most appropriate for winter in Scotland.​​

​


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## nanotech (Feb 24, 2011)

Thank you very much Andy. My apologies for not checking your encyclopedia first. Wow there's much more to it than I thought!

So, to help me clarify:

I'm talking about cotton here, for shirtings.

So there's yarn count, which doesn't usually go higher than 90's and that's very very fine yarn. What exactly are filament fibers though? I understand the lower the number the finer the fiber, but what's the range 1 denier to 5 denier?

For shirtings, is 80's yarn and a low denier number always the best for high-quality, smooth "hand" shirts? (not taking into account tailoring, just talking shirtings here)

I got the 2-ply part, but for "120's" or "140's"...we shouldn't say the fabric is "made with" 120/2 x 140/2, rather it's "made into" that, right? It's "made with" the yarn which would be 80's 2-ply, etc, but the yarn is woven tightly into fabric and the "tightness" or how many yarns per sq inch is the 120/2 x 140/2 part, right? Also, for the fabric just mentioned, do they always display the higher number, so if it's 120 one way and 140 the other way, do they just say it's a "140's" shirting?

You mentioned twisting together yarns of different tensions and/or diameters, but that's not typically done for cotton shirtings or even cotton blend shirtings, correct?

When you say "ply yarns are two or more strands twisted together," that's even if it's 1-ply right? Because each "ply" itself consists of strands that are twisted, right? Is "high twist" the same as "compact yarn?"

As an example, what would a nice "140's" or "160's" DJA twill fabric be made from? As far as yarn number, threads per square inch in warp & weft, and the twistedness (turns per inch) of each ply?

Thanks in advance!


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

nanotech said:


> I got the 2-ply part, but for "120's" or "140's"...we shouldn't say the fabric is "made with" 120/2 x 140/2, rather it's "made into" that, right? It's "made with" the yarn which would be 80's 2-ply, etc, but the yarn is woven tightly into fabric and the "tightness" or how many yarns per sq inch is the 120/2 x 140/2 part, right? Also, for the fabric just mentioned, do they always display the higher number, so if it's 120 one way and 140 the other way, do they just say it's a "140's" shirting?


No.



> As an example, what would a nice "140's" or "160's" DJA twill fabric be made from? As far as yarn number, threads per square inch in warp & weft, and the twistedness (turns per inch) of each ply?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


What is with your obsession with DJA?

Forgot about the link. https://archive.constantcontact.com/fs018/1101478760242/archive/1102772493004.html#article1.bg1


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## nanotech (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks Leighton, I've read that link already. But the linked site states yarn numbers can go up to 300, whereas the post by Andy says a 90 yarn number would practically be impossible to weave a fabric out of...so which is which?

You quoted 3 questions and typed one "No" answer, is that for all three questions? Can you pls clarify?

As for DJA, I'm just using it as comparison purposes as many on the board and other boards have pointed to DJA as having the best, highest quality shirting fabrics.


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## CTucker (Feb 5, 2016)

nanotech said:


> Thanks Leighton, I've read that link already. But the linked site states can go up to 300, whereas the post by Andy says a 90 yarn number would practically be impossible to weave a fabric out of...so which is which?


It's an old thread but I wanted to reply to nanotech. 
When the case is cotton ( unit), 90s and finer yarn are naturally possible. 100s, 120s, 140s are common counts in fine shirts.



nanotech said:


> I got the 2-ply part, but for "120's" or "140's"...we shouldn't say the fabric is "made with" 120/2 x 140/2, rather it's "made into" that, right? It's "made with" the yarn which would be 80's 2-ply, etc, but the yarn is woven tightly into fabric and the "tightness" or how many yarns per sq inch is the 120/2 x 140/2 part, right? Also, for the fabric just mentioned, do they always display the higher number, so if it's 120 one way and 140 the other way, do they just say it's a "140's" shirting?


120/2 x 140/2 
This is not thread count. It's the warp yarn count x weft yarn count. "/2" indicates that it's 2-ply.


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## SergeS (Aug 25, 2018)

This is a really old thread and as much as I have tried to Google and understand computing thread count I am a little stumped.
I recently purchased some apparently very good cotton fabric (it was certainly expensive). The fabric was especially woven for promotional purposes and the accompanying documentation stated it was 2 ply / 200s both in the weft and also in the warp. Since the 200s refers to the fineness of the yarn, is there necessarily a correlation between this specification and the actual thread count which measures density? In effect, the same yarn could be loosely woven to result in a lower thread count or tightly woven for a higher thread count. However, I assume there is a theoretical maximum that is possible given the thickness of the yarn which is known. Would this allow for a very general computation of the thread count?
In which case what would the approximate thread count be for the cloth mentioned above please (given that it is 2/200s in the warp and also in the weft) in popular parlance and in actuality, if computable?


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## SergeS (Aug 25, 2018)

Bump. 
Could one of the shirt makers chime in please....


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone talk about the thread count of a shirt.


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## SergeS (Aug 25, 2018)

As an example, here is a page from Kamakura shirts:
https://www.kamakurashirts.net/shop/pages/400_m.aspx


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