# tux or tails - piano recital



## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

I am a classical concert pianist and I am going to be giving a recital on a Saturday afternoon at 3pm at a major concert hall in Los Angeles. Beethoven, Brahms, Busoni, that sort of thing. I would like to know which is more appropriate for me to wear: tails or a tux? Now, mind you, I'm not oblivious to some of the newer trends in concert dress for performers, but for the moment my question is focused on the more traditional choices, considering the time of day this concert is to happen. I would appreciate any expert opinion on this forum.


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## Mahler (Aug 5, 2005)

3pm sounds way too early for tails anywhere, and especially in LA. I would even hesitate with the tux. Why not sport a morning suit, if you have a chance, unless 3pm is too late for that already.


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm not an expert.

But I'm not sure the usual thinking is applicable in this context. 

I've seen plenty of performances in a tux, but assuming your performance is on I'm not sure anyone would really care!

But if it is recorded, please let me know. My mother would love to hear it.

-spence


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

A morning coat would be appropriate. Or a stroller, but the MC would look better on the bench as it's a tailcoat.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Are you guys sure? Because the rules for musicians may be different. I have never seen a musician wearing a morning coat or stroller.

I would ask the concert hall what they have to say.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

WA said:


> Are you guys sure? Because the rules for musicians may be different. I have never seen a musician wearing a morning coat or stroller.
> 
> I would ask the concert hall what they have to say.


He can probably wear jeans if he wants. But he asked what's correct. A morning coat would be correct. Tails should not be worn before 6PM.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Will said:


> A morning coat would be appropriate. Or a stroller, but the MC would look better on the bench as it's a tailcoat.


Forgive my ignorace, but what is a stroller and what does it look like?


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## flylot74 (Jul 26, 2007)

This is the German equivalent of a stroller:



It's called a Stresemann, but you get the idea. There are several very good threads on the subject of MC and Stroller. Use the search function on this website to get the threads. It's very helpful.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

I agree, a morning coat with hickory strip trousers is the most appropriate for this occasion.

Black tie (tuxedo) and white tie (tails) are evening wear, and it's not appropriate to wear them before 6PM, unless, for some reason, one or the other is specifically called for.

There are, of course exceptions to the rule, generally when the outfit is standing in as a uniform.

For example, I belong to several Masonic organizations that require tuxedo or tails at meetings. Occasionally, one of these groups will meet during the day, but the dress code remains the same. I admit that it irritates me to wear formal wear in the daytime, but I understand why we're wearing it, so I don't say anything about it.

In the situation at hand, if there were a dress code specified for the musicians, then that's what he should follow. Since, apparently, there isn't a dress code specified, and he desires to wear what is correct, he should wear a morning coat.


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

*Concert hall is mute*

I'm following this thread with great intensity. I noticed that some have suggested wearing what the concert hall requires. There is no such animal in this case - it is a rented hall and there is no dress requirement or guideline.


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## gng8 (Aug 5, 2005)

goodear said:


> I'm following this thread with great intensity. I noticed that some have suggested wearing what the concert hall requires. There is no such animal in this case - it is a rented hall and there is no dress requirement or guideline.


I have been to many concerts at all times including during the afternoon. I suggest a dark suit, white shirt and tie. If you are uncomfortable with that selection, then try the tux.

The reality is you can wear white tie if you wish and most of the audience will think that you really dressed up because the concert is something special--which I am sure it will be.
Forget the stroller or morning coat. These are not really accepted as US dress except maybe at weddings.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

gng8 said:


> I have been to many concerts at all times including during the afternoon. I suggest a dark suit, white shirt and tie.


+1. This is most appropriate for such an event. Don't wear evening wear during the day. You are a musician, not a butler.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I'm not quite sure the reason for the hostility to appropriate daytime formal and semi-formal attire, especially considering the original poster said:



goodear said:


> ...for the moment my question is focused on the more traditional choices, considering the time of day this concert is to happen...


It seems puzzling to me to object to a morning coat or stroller and yet suggest white tie at 3 o'clock.

This is your concert in your rented hall. Wear what you want, but since you want the correct thing, why not a morning coat or stroller? Otherwise, go with the suit, but ah, the missed opportunity!

There are a several past threads on strollers if you do a search.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*Very NIce!*



flylot74 said:


> This is the German equivalent of a stroller:
> 
> It's called a Stresemann...


I love this!


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

Any formal wear rental store will be able to set you up with correct formal wear for the daytime.

The wikipedia article on morning dress will give you enough information to ensure that you rent the correct ensemble.

Daytime formal wear is just as impressive as evening formal wear, with the added benefit of impressing those members of the audience who are familiar with the subtleties of formal wear.


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

Well, what gng8 says above has a true ring to it. A novice in these matters, I was intrigued by the idea of a morning coat, but I did some research and found a photo of it. It does appear to be foreign to American audiences; I have never seen it at a concert.

Also, (and I am trying not to be argumentative here but just to clarify) I am not necessarily looking for "the correct thing." But if I were, I want to know what choices I have within the field of correctness. That was why I posted my question. I am open to all suggestions. It may be that I will opt for something completely different.



AlanC said:


> I'm not quite sure the reason for the hostility to appropriate daytime formal and semi-formal attire, especially considering the original poster said:
> 
> It seems puzzling to me to object to a morning coat or stroller and yet suggest white tie at 3 o'clock.
> 
> ...


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Proper morning or day dress would look spectacular. If you are of a weaker disposition or it was not at a "major concert hall" (suggesting a major event!), then a dark suit, white shirt, block coloured tie would be fine.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Actually a tailcoat is perfectly appropriate - just as long as it is a NOT a dress coat. Here is Jascha Heitetz in morning dress:















He looks very dashing too. His presentation and delivery was always legendary for its perfection, and this clearly extended to his manner of dress.

Tail coats come in three varieties:

1. Morning Coat (Cutaway in American English)










Like Jascha Heitetz in the above clip, the figure on the right wears full dress suitable for events before 6PM. Notice the angular cutaway front of the coat.

2. Dress Coat










This is full dress for events only after 6PM. Notice the horizontally cut away front.

3. Frock Coat










This style became extinct in the early decades of the 20th century and was once a step above the morning coat in formality for daytime full dress. Here Arthur Nikisch, legendary former chief conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic, wears morning dress with a frock coat:










ADDIT: an argument can be made to exclude frock coats from the category of tail coats on the grounds of a lack of a cut away to the front of the skirt. However, it is so closely related that it is useful to categorise them together with other full dress coats.


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

Matt S said:


> +1. This is most appropriate for such an event. Don't wear evening wear during the day. You are a musician, not a butler.


I assume you mean that "a dark suit, white shirt and tie" is most appropriate. This is the least butleresque.

Last month I played a noontime concert wearing a nice black untapered shirt, no jacket, no tie, top two buttons open and the shirt not tucked into the pants. Black pants and shoes. Any comments on this? Now I might mention that black shirt (usually tucked in) is lately considered the signature outfit for a soloist performing contemporary music. It is also the outfit for a pit musician.

On other occasions I have worn a white or off-white sweater-shirt (I don't know if that is the correct term), not with a turtle neck, no v-neck and a black business suit. I have mentioned this to broaden the discussion.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

goodear said:


> Last month I played a noontime concert wearing a nice black untapered shirt, no jacket, no tie, top two buttons open and the shirt not tucked into the pants. Black pants and shoes. Any comments on this? Now I might mention that black shirt (usually tucked in) is lately considered the signature outfit for a soloist performing contemporary music. It is also the outfit for a pit musician.


It is the ideal uniform for the café musician as it matches the dress of waiters in cheap joints.

Where is Jascha Heifetz when we need him most?


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

I am not very familiar with the subtleties of dress specific to the music profession, other than the following:


In a stage production, anyone who is not an actor or actress (e.g., stage hands, pit musicians, spotlight operators) seem to wear all black. The black ranges from black jeans with a black t-shirt to black trousers with a black sport shirt.
Conductors of orchestras seem to always wear tails at concerts in the evening.
If there is a dress code that is accepted among musicians, then you're probably fine sticking to that. You're probably more of an expert on that subject than anyone else here.


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

It's hard to see exactly what Heifitz is wearing since his violin is blocking the view.



Sator said:


> Actually a tailcoat is perfectly appropriate - just as long as it is a NOT a dress coat. Here is Jascha Heitetz in morning dress:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

goodear said:


> It's hard to see exactly what Heifitz is wearing since his violin is blocking the view.


Have you looked at the video?


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## DEG (Jan 29, 2005)

*Why not be different...stand out?*

This is a fun riddle. If you want to stand out, wear morning dress. It IS traditionally appropriate, read: perfectly correct, and those who get it will fine it cool. Almost all of those who don't, will be pleased to see the added luster. Those who don't like it will be those bent on promoting the slobification of America anyway and they will be smug and quietly ridicule you. (**** ridicule is something a lot of members here find amusing and validating.) As for me, I have always had the policy of "when in doubt, overdress." It is always safer and more comfortable for me.

BTW, great post as usual, Sator. You are a great asset to this forum!


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

flylot74 said:


> This is the German equivalent of a stroller:
> 
> It's called a Stresemann, but you get the idea. There are several very good threads on the subject of MC and Stroller. Use the search function on this website to get the threads. It's very helpful.


Maybe it is just me, but, IMO, a stroller doesn't look that much different from a dinner jacket, or, as we call it in North America, a tuxedo jacket.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Fashion TC said:


> Maybe it is just me, but, IMO, a stroller doesn't look that much different from a dinner jacket, or, as we call it in North America, a tuxedo jacket.


Quite right, except that a dinner jacket has silk facings in the lapels. The only form of daytime formal/semi-formal dress which may correctly take silk facings is a frock coat (except when worn at a funeral when a frock coat with self faced lapels should be worn).


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

Fashion TC said:


> Maybe it is just me, but, IMO, a stroller doesn't look that much different from a dinner jacket, or, as we call it in North America, a tuxedo jacket.


I think stroller jackets have self-faced lapels, instead of the silk-faced lapels found on evening formal wear.

Edit: Obviously, I was typing my reply at the same time as Sator...


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

As a regular concert goer and having been engaged to classical musician, I would like to comment. Most concert pianists wear white tie or a dinner jacket/tuxedo for concerts. The time is irrelevant. 

Forget the stroller. It is an obsession of some posters on online clothing fora. I have yet to see one worn by a performer at a classical concert. I would also advise against a morning coat for similar reasons.

If in doubt, consult the venue or promoter.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

The stroller jacket itself doesn't look terribly different, although the overall ensemble gives quite a different look. Of course, one can acceptably wear a notch lapel jacket with a stroller.

If morning dress is so rare then why not rebel and wear it? I asume that's what an untucked, unbuttoned shirt is meant to convey while it's just conformity to an ever spiraling norm.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

There is a time and a place for rebellion. This is not it. The originator needs his audience to focus on his playing and music rather than how he is dressed. No one ever got laughed at for wearing white tie and tails.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

The only people who should wear evening dress (dress coat or dinner jacket) for a daytime event are servants, and waiters. Just because an increasing number of professional musicians wear black t-shirts, jeans or evening dress in broad daylight, it should not mean you are forced to sheepishly follow them.

Here is an example of Wilhelm Furtwängler wearing semi-formal daytime dress (stroller in American English):






I post this video clip with some hesitation due to the wartime context. Furtwängler once refused to start a Vienna Phil. concert until the National Socialist flag had been removed from sight angrily demanding that they "take that rag down!"


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

gng8 said:


> These are not really accepted as US dress except maybe at weddings.


Boy! Do I find that an overstatement. Just about anything is acceptable in the U.S. as far as what is considered 'dressed". I think a more correct statement is that that morning dress is less understood in the U.S. as correct daytime formal wear.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> There is a time and a place for rebellion. This is not it. The originator needs his audience to focus on his playing and music rather than how he is dressed. No one ever got laughed at for wearing white tie and tails.


The wearing of evening dress in broad daylight is an abomination. One would never see the Princes of Wales dressed in such a manner.

I would be deeply saddened if someone were to suggest that musicians are like butlers, and other servants in that they should wear incorrect combinations of dress (such as evening dress in daylight) to force them to stand apart from the guests they serve. The true artist should be a free soul and servile to nobody.

By "rebellion", AlanC means the rebellion against the tidal wave of woeful dress that prevails today. I hope the aspiring musician today would rather look to the classical dress of great musicians of the past for inspiration.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

I would take it from Vienna's New Year's Day Concert. 
Just like your concert, it's a matinee:

Conductor and orchestra wear short coats with long ties.
(Although Harnoncourt wears a fluffy bow and Muti a rather peculiar thing).

Maris Jansons

Carlos Kleiber

Nikolaus Harnoncourt









In earlier pictures, Clemens Krauss wears a white tuxedo in the early-mid 50s.
Times have obviously changed.

Let's see what Maestro Georges Prêtre will be wearing in a month's time.


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## flylot74 (Jul 26, 2007)

Sator said:


> The only people who should wear evening dress (dress coat or dinner jacket) for a daytime event are servants, and waiters.


Historically musicians were servants albeit, servants of the court. They were the employ of the church or Kings, Queens, Dukes, what have you. So dressing as a servant is not out of the realm of being historically correct.

Having said that, I am of the opinion as others, when in doubt overdress. The average audience participant has no clue of sartorial standards or history. However, I am willing to conjecture, if polled they would expect tails at a classical performance. I am also willing to be they would not differentiate between the dove tail of a MC and the tails of white tie.

Personally, I would go with the morning coat rather than white tie and tails. Because: a. it is before 6pm and b. in these modern times a musician is identified as a professional, not a member of the servant class.

Is an example, however, I might even use a non winged collar and a standard long tie. My $ .02


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## Lookingforaclue (Nov 10, 2005)

I'm sure that most orchestras would wear either tails or dark business suits in the daytime. I've only seen them in anything but for a holiday or summer daytime concert. It's unlikely that their musicians would agree to cutaway morning coats or strollers for what would be only very occasional wear. Morningwear is hardly ever seen in the US outside of weddings, regardless of how "formal" the daytime occasion. Even most daytime weddings I've seen lately have been in either dark suits or misbegotten assemblages.

Having said all that, I would vote for the stroller with a black rather than grey jacket (which will be a better contrast against the keyboard, though either color is correct.) Unless you are playing with an ensemble, you really only have yourself to account to. 

Next choice would be a dark suit and a bow tie. A stroller is worn with a long tie, but has a vest to keep it in place. Otherwise the movement of a long tie may be a distraction.

And finally, your audience will not be critcal of tails or a tux, but you are in the lucky position of being able to do better.

SRW

PS - I know cutaways can be correctly worn in the afternoon, and that cutaways and strollers are two different levels of formality, but in my sartorial upbringing (Massachusetts beyond Rt. 128 in the 60's) it was cutaways if the event began in the morning, strollers if after noon.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

...Just so long as you don't dress like Ashkenazy (bloody turtleneck) or "Kennedy"...


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

flylot74 said:


> Historically musicians were servants albeit, servants of the court. They were the employ of the church or Kings, Queens, Dukes, what have you. So dressing as a servant is not out of the realm of being historically correct.


It was Beethoven who changed all that. My favourite story is how a prince tried to show him off like a trained monkey to some visiting Napoleonic generals. On being requested to play the piano for them he stormed out angrily knocking a bust of the prince to the ground. Beethoven later wrote him a letter in which he wrote:

"There have been thousands of princes, and there shall be thousands more - but there is only one Beethoven."

Never again has the musician been a servant, but a master.


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

In Picture 1, do you mean the gent at the right from our perspective, or his perspective?



Sator said:


> Actually a tailcoat is perfectly appropriate - just as long as it is a NOT a dress coat. Here is Jascha Heitetz in morning dress:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

*The fit*

Can a MC be worn unbottoned? I am concerned about restriction of movement as a pianist. (My apologies if some of my postings are being sent to wrong location - I am new to this.)


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

goodear said:


> Can a MC be worn unbottoned? I am concerned about restriction of movement as a pianist. (My apologies if some of my postings are being sent to wrong location - I am new to this.)


While seated? Yes.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

The figure on our right in the top hat wears the morning coat (cutaway for the American gentlemen here) and formal striped trousers:










The figure to the left is wearing a stroller with formal checkered trousers.

You can see that Arthur Nikisch has posed for his photo with his coat unbuttoned. It is quite acceptable given that he is wearing a waistcoat underneath. So you could easily do the same wearing a morning coat during a piano recital.

The formal waistcoat is usually double breasted in a dove grey, cream or buff coloured linen for summer. Lavender is a more unusual but highly attractive alternative. A waistcoat of a colour matching the morning coat /cutaway is the most formal option. For a concert it would a correct either way, but a bit of colour makes the ensemble less sombre. Note that Heifetz wears a matching coloured waistcoat in the video clip I posted. His accompanist at the piano also appears to be wearing morning dress.

Here is Prince Charles wearing a dove grey waistcoat (with morning coat unbuttoned):










Here I am wearing a stroller with a buff coloured waistcoat:


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## Des Esseintes (Aug 16, 2005)

Sator said:


> Never again has the musician been a servant, but a master.


Sator - that, I guess, is another of your enthusiastic overstatements for which we love you so much on this forum. I would argue strongly that the vast majority of musicians in today's world are much closer to the servant end than the master end of the spectrum. And many of the greats after Beethoven have "served" their respective masters, although of course the romantic ideal of the artist helped elevate them, compared to earlier times.

Regarding the OP, while I am a great admirer and enthusiatic wearer of morning coats, I would guess that you may also want to take into account what you would feel comfortable in during the concert, as that may well have an impact on your performance. No, I am not about to recommend a tracksuit but feeling appropriately dressed in a tailcoat, despite the early time of your concert, may be better advised than going in with the feeling of being put together in a manner the audience will find rather odd, and maybe you, too.

I personally might opt for the - even more uncommon - stroller. Most of the audience will not even notice that you are not just wearing a dark suit.

And, in the end, it will be your music that counts anyway, right?

dE


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

I am definitely not in favor of slobification, guilty as I occasionally am.



DEG said:


> This is a fun riddle. If you want to stand out, wear morning dress. It IS traditionally appropriate, read: perfectly correct, and those who get it will fine it cool. Almost all of those who don't, will be pleased to see the added luster. Those who don't like it will be those bent on promoting the slobification of America anyway and they will be smug and quietly ridicule you. (**** ridicule is something a lot of members here find amusing and validating.) As for me, I have always had the policy of "when in doubt, overdress." It is always safer and more comfortable for me.
> 
> BTW, great post as usual, Sator. You are a great asset to this forum!


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

When you say "short coat" do you mean just a regular business-type jacket?
And "long tie": does that mean a regular (long) tie as opposed to a bowtie?


bengal-stripe said:


> I would take it from Vienna's New Year's Day Concert.
> Just like your concert, it's a matinee:
> 
> Conductor and orchestra wear short coats with long ties.
> ...


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

Will said:


> While seated? Yes.


You mean it should be buttoned when I am standing, then unbutton it when seated at piano?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

goodear said:


> You mean it should be buttoned when I am standing, then unbutton it when seated at piano?


It is a bit smarter that way but I would suggest not worrying too much about it and concentrate on your recital. Note that Prince Charles seems to be unconcerned over whether to button or not.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

I love this thread.

My two cents is that when you play, it will be "after six" in New York city. 

Wear a dinner jacket.


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

Liberty Ship said:


> I love this thread.
> 
> My two cents is that when you play, it will be "after six" in New York city.
> 
> Wear a dinner jacket.


But in Tokyo it will be about 8am, so maybe I should wear...a cutaway...?
See? I might be learning something in here. Or maybe it's just a different slant on the subject. Oops.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*This is truly magnificent!*



Sator said:


> ...Here I am wearing a stroller with a buff coloured waistcoat:


:icon_cheers:This is truly magnificent! 

And I expect we can regard the fit of sleeves, etc., as being an example of perfection, yes?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

goodear said:


> Well, what gng8 says above has a true ring to it. A novice in these matters, I was intrigued by the idea of a morning coat, but I did some research and found a photo of it. It does appear to be foreign to American audiences; I have never seen it at a concert.


That was the preferred attire of Horowitz, who only performed on Sunday afternoons. Remember, dress for the job you want!

More seriously, a dark suit and dark tie should be just fine for a daytime event. In Boston, the Symphony wears tails in the evening, suits in the afternoon. Freelance-based orchestras wear black tie regardless of the time. [It's harder to insist that a union-scale musician acquire and maintain a diplomat's wardrobe.] If you're a soloist, you should dress according to the image you would like to portray, given that you have no colleagues with whom to coordinate.


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

Using your example of the stroller with buff-colored waistcoat. are the flower and handkerchief necessary parts of the outfit?



Sator said:


> The figure on our right in the top hat wears the morning coat (cutaway for the American gentlemen here) and formal striped trousers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Hey, you've paid for the hall, and this is in Los Angeles where seemingly anything goes. Shouldn't you be practicing?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

goodear said:


> Using your example of the stroller with buff-colored waistcoat. are the flower and handkerchief necessary parts of the outfit?


If you ask me, of course I am going to say that both pocket square and boutonnière are essential. In actuality, only the pocket square is, but a soloist would look very elegant sporting a boutonnière. Note that Heifetz sports only a pocket square.


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## Oxonian (May 1, 2007)

Interestingly enough I played in a concert at Blenheim Palace today (about two hours' worth of Handel's "Messiah"). Dress was black tie in the middle of the afternoon. Did indeed feel a bit like a servant, although the surroundings were certainly pleasant... we were given lunch and the green room was quite obviously an ex-stable.



flylot74 said:


> Historically musicians were servants albeit, servants of the court. They were the employ of the church or Kings, Queens, Dukes, what have you. So dressing as a servant is not out of the realm of being historically correct.
> 
> Having said that, I am of the opinion as others, when in doubt overdress. The average audience participant has no clue of sartorial standards or history. However, I am willing to conjecture, if polled they would expect tails at a classical performance. I am also willing to be they would not differentiate between the dove tail of a MC and the tails of white tie.
> 
> ...


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

Fashion TC said:


> Maybe it is just me, but, IMO, a stroller doesn't look that much different from a dinner jacket, or, as we call it in North America, a tuxedo jacket.


Stroller jacket is peak lapel, black OR dark gray. The waistcoat is traditionally dove gray (except at funerals). The pants are gray striped or checked. The tie is a straight tie, never a bow. The shoes should be black Balmoral boots, but plain black captoe bals should be fine, I guess... Shirt is white, no pleats, turndown (not-wing) collar.

So there are some differences, I suppose. However, the stroller is the less-formal version of morning wear, like the dinner jacket is for evening wear. The morning coat is daytime tails.

As a last note, the last time the stroller was seen in a major public forum in America was Reagan's first inauguration. At his second inauguration he wore a dark suit. The Solicitor General of the US wears full morning dress when he argues before the Supreme Court. I believe that my appointment to that office will be the only way I could ever justify the commissioning of a bespoke morning suit, so on that note, I return to studying for law school finals.


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## 16712 (May 10, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> As a regular concert goer and having been engaged to classical musician, I would like to comment. Most concert pianists wear white tie or a dinner jacket/tuxedo for concerts. The time is irrelevant.
> 
> Forget the stroller. It is an obsession of some posters on online clothing fora. I have yet to see one worn by a performer at a classical concert. I would also advise against a morning coat for similar reasons.
> 
> If in doubt, consult the venue or promoter.


I agree that the time of day is in this case irrevelant. Concert halls are not "daylight" settings, nor are they, for the performer, social events. Concert halls are usualy dark and outside light does not come in. The black and white of evening dress is in keeping with the setting, where the sounds and distractions of outside world are removed.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

MR said:


> I agree that the time of day is in this case irrevelant. Concert halls are not "daylight" settings, nor are they, for the performer, social events. Concert halls are usualy dark and outside light does not come in. The black and white of evening dress is in keeping with the setting, where the sounds and distractions of outside world are removed.


You could put forward the same argument about many churches. In which case you would have to wear evening dress for many weddings regardless of the time of day. However, as Arthur Nikisch, Jascha Heifetz and Wilhelm Furtwängler demonstrate - the time of day dictates how one dresses irrespective of the venue and musicians are not exempt from the classical rules of dress.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I remember one anecdote about the great German conductor Hans Knappertsbusch. While recording a Viennese Waltz the time signature degenerated from Waltz time to 4/4 time. The record producer (Walter Legge, IIRC) stopped him to point out the error. Knappertsbusch replied "Oh! - they will never notice".

Here are some examples of musicians dressed poorly.

1. Karl Böhm

Even the old fashioned and often Kapellmeisterish Böhm is shameless in conducting the very conservative Vienna Philharmonic - in the Musikvereinsaal no less - wearing a turndown collar 






2. James Levine and Luciano Pavarotti

James Levine manages a royal botch up of evening full dress coat with turndown collar and - wait for it folks - a cummerbund :icon_pale:






Pavarotti in his turndown collar is hardly any better.

3. At a Sydney Philharmonia matinee performance last Easter of the Bach St Matthew Passion I was was horrified to see the conductor in a dress coat with what looked from a distance like a leopard print waistcoat peeking out a provervial mile underneath the coat. Needless to say I was wearing a stroller.

Given the epidemic of major sartorial disasters it is little surprise to see musicians dressed likes cads with dress coats in broad daylight. Should any of these errors be copied? Or are musicians going to think like Knappertbusch and say "Oh! - they will never notice".


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

videocrew said:


> Stroller jacket is peak lapel, black OR dark gray. The waistcoat is traditionally dove gray (except at funerals). The pants are gray striped or checked. The tie is a straight tie, never a bow. The shoes should be black Balmoral boots, but plain black captoe bals should be fine, I guess... Shirt is white, no pleats, turndown (not-wing) collar.


Not entirely. There is quite a bit of flexibility in the stroller look, including notch lapels and even bow tie:










I believe Sator has also posted pictures of Churchill (and maybe others) wearing a bowtie with morning dress. Still, the look is quite different on the whole from evening attire.

Our own Orgetorix put the idea into action here:










The bowtie is houndstooth, the trousers are b&w glen plaid, although that doesn't come through (at least on my monitor).


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Captain Peacock at work (not at a funeral):










Prince Charles with a blue contrast collar shirt:










The young Bogart with a non-white shirt:










Morning dress with a bow tie:



















A cream coloured waistcoat and extravagant bow tie:










Morning dress (semi-formal) with detachable standing collar and cravat:


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## goodear (Nov 29, 2007)

MR said:


> I agree that the time of day is in this case irrevelant. Concert halls are not "daylight" settings, nor are they, for the performer, social events. Concert halls are usualy dark and outside light does not come in. The black and white of evening dress is in keeping with the setting, where the sounds and distractions of outside world are removed.


My first reaction to "nor are they, for the performer, social events." was: how true - they are artistic/musical events, after all is said and done. Second reaction was - wait a minute - what IS a SOCIAL event? I believe its where there are people. Does that not influence the performer's choice? Let's for a moment substitute "penguins" for "people." If there were only penguins in the audience, I would not be thinking about this question about appropriate dress, regardless of the setting, "where the sounds and distractions of outside world are removed."


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

goodear said:


> My first reaction to "nor are they, for the performer, social events." was: how true - they are artistic/musical events, after all is said and done. Second reaction was - wait a minute - what IS a SOCIAL event? I believe its where there are people.


Indeed, a marriage ceremony in a church is a social event. It is said that the artistic profundity that Furtwängler brought to a concert gave it a religious intensity. Of course, Bartók asks for an _Adagio Religioso_ in his third piano concerto. So even the most contemplative of shared religious or artistic experience is a social event - indeed a social ritual. And since time immemorial whether for a priest, a shaman, a warlock, or a conductor/soloist there is the appropriate ritualistic attire.


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