# Is there any place in "Black Tie" for a wing collar?



## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

Is there any place in "Black Tie" for a wing collar? 

I scored a removable wing collar from Brooks Brothers. I've read a few lines of information but didn't see any for or against wing collars for "Black Tie".

I know that wing collars are definately for "White Tie" but what about "Black Tie"? I've seen quite a few classic films from the 40's and 50's where wing collars were worn with "Black Tie" (but doesn't mean it's correct).


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

No...save it for white tie.


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

https://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/Shirt.htm - Classic

https://www.blacktieguide.com/Contemporary/Shirt.htm - Contemporary


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

No. Like opera pumps, wing collars should not be worn at Black-tie events.

However, most of the people would not know and or care.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

One may "correctly" wear a wing-collar shirt with a tuxedo in the United States. Ditto for opera pumps. The wing looks best, in the view of many, with a peak-lapel jacket.

These aesthetic preferences and practices are apparently frowned upon in the UK. It's a jurisdictional issue: follow the law of your location. Analogy: we don't drive on the left in the USA, even though it's "correct" to do it that way in London.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Absolutely. I have no idea what the naysayers are on about. The wing collar (detachable collar, of course) long predates the turn-down collar for black tie wear.

To prove the point, here's Jeeves, the quintessential gentleman's personal gentleman, fitting his man into black tie rig, complete with wing collar:


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Even in the UK, you will have many people wearing wing-collars.

Then you have the over-dressed, who try to bring white-white into black-tie.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

CuffDaddy said:


> Absolutely. I have no idea what the naysayers are on about. The wing collar (detachable collar, of course) long predates the turn-down collar for black tie wear.


Ditto


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## Sean1982 (Sep 7, 2009)

I like a stiff starched high detachable collar on a stiff starched shirt for black tie, with a single breasted peaked lapel grosgrain one button dj and low cut waistcoat, high cut trousers and braces etc. With satin/notch/shawl/cummerbund etc, not for me. And with an attached wing collar, never, they are abominations.

If it's good enough for Poirot, then it's good enough for me!


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

ToryBoy said:


> No. Like opera pumps, wing collars should not be worn at Black-tie events.
> 
> .


Yes, Like opera pumps they can be worn at Black-tie events.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Looks fine on other people, and in the context of earlier days of black tie (such as Bertie there) but I would personally prefer a soft turn down collar.


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## Jake1990 (Jan 5, 2009)

It's fine for black tie. Looks good as well.


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## Sufferable Fob (Aug 26, 2009)

With the decline and near-extinction of white tie, especially for the average person, I would rather see black tie re-incorporate more formal elements than further decline in formality (the silk-waistband trousers, button shirts, et cetera).


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

There are two ways to wear black tie, and the wing-collared shirt is one way. The shirt should have a detachable wing collar and the shirt should not have pleats pleats. It needs to be worn with a white cotton 3-button single breasted or low-cut double breasted waistcoat. I'd recommend wearing mother of pearl studs and cuff links on the shirt, and matching studs on the waistcoat. A black low-cut waistcoat may also work with such a shirt. The dinner jacket should be single breasted with peak lapels. So the shirt and waistcoat in this case are the same as they would be in white tie.
Either go all out of don't go there at all. If you wear a cummerbund, you need a soft turn-down collar. You can also wear a black waistcoat with a turndown collar as well as with a wing collar.
Since the Duke of Windsor started wearing a soft-collared shirt with his dinner jacket, it became standard to do so in Britain. Most American movies and television from the 50s and 60s featured soft-collared shirts with black tie. It wasn't until the 1980s that the wing collar became popular again in America. It never really came back in Britain.


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## Jake1990 (Jan 5, 2009)

It really is rather popular here. Largely in attached form, but nonetheless. The white waistcoat with black tie is not, however.


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

I was under the impression that in the US opera pumps were the correct choice for black tie. Perhaps even better than patent leather bals.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

windsor said:


> I was under the impression that in the US opera pumps were the correct choice for black tie. Perhaps even better than patent leather bals.


I only wear mine with white tie.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

windsor said:


> I was under the impression that in the US opera pumps were the correct choice for black tie. Perhaps even better than patent leather bals.


I would not say that they are *the* correct choice, but they certainly are *a* correct choice.


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## Cavendish (Nov 23, 2009)

Anyone pooh-poohing wing collars with black tie have never seen, or worn, a real one. To say that they are inappropriate is ridiculous. They may seem a tiny bit anachronistic, but not in a bad way. What is "wrong" are the tiny, half-inch-tall, flaccid, soft, squiggly, dumpy, attached wing collars sold at retail. I think that if a formal shirt is going to have a soft front, it should have a turn-down collar.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

The wing collar is standard with white tie and tails and went though a high degree of popularity during the 1980's and early 90's with Black tie, but the straight collar is being seen more these days.


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## TheBigOne (Mar 5, 2008)

As long as it's a white shirt with a white wing collar and not one of those black silk deals that I have seen in several instances...


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## Richard Baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Taliesin, you are correct. However, as the other point out, some want the wing tips and opera pumps restricted to White Tie, where they originate from, like does the Tuxedo(!!) as such. The Duke of Windsor's later penchant for turn down collars with Black Tie does not mean it needs to be followed slavishly. As wing collars are also worn with White Tie - with a more formal dress shirt that is specific for White Tie - wing collars are preferably worn when one is strictly following the classic-traditional Black Tie standards; i.e. white shirt, all in black and white, like at certain dinners/balls that are strictly Black Tie. As CuffDaddy correctly points out, the wing collar was the original collar when Black Tie was invented; turn down collars came later. When the occasion is less strictly Black Tie, e.g. "Optional Black Tie", or should you decide to wear a less traditional Tuxedo variation, the button down shirt probably looks better. In spite of various aesthetic quibbles by some critics, both collar types are ok, but with a very traditional Black Tie outfit, especially with peak lapel Tuxedos that mimic a White Tie tailcoat front, the wing collar probably looks better. Be aware that the size and height of the wing collar are important; they should not push into your chin. I have worn wing collars with strict Black Tie in very traditional surroundings in the UK frequently, and found that many others do the same, as some do wear turn down collars. 

Yes, Windsor, not only in the US; in general opera pumps are the gold standard. Patent Bals/Oxfords or, especially with a less strictly Black Tie outfit, well-polished black toecap Oxfords are ok, but patent shoes are better - the lustre and shine reflects the elegance of the outfit and, hopefully, the occasion.


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

I am in the US. The shirt I purchased is the Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece (Detachable Collar).
https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=1180443&Section_Id=235&Merchant_Id=1&default_color=WHITE&sectioncolor=&sectionsize=

I would be using it with black satin peak lapels, 1 button, no vents - evening suit. I have two suits. 

Along with the suit mentioned above I have a black satin shawl lapel, 1 button, no vents. I will be attending 3 events in three days including some of the same individuals and I wanted to switch up the look as to appear as though I'm wearing 3 different suits. 
1. Peaked lapel with turn down collar, pleated
2. Shawl lapel with turn down collar plain front
3. Pleaked lapel with with wing collar

If it were in the spring season I would wear my ivory, shawl collar (collar = same wool material as the jacket), 1 button - buttons not covered, no vents. As season doesn't permit.. that is out (I know some frown on wearing ivory totally in North America.. but I thing it's also a geographical difference in opinion. As the season prevents that I'm limited to the three options listed above.


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## Luis-F-S (Apr 6, 2009)

Of course there is! At least in this country! Most of us will never have need of or a chance to wear white tie; I have about a dozen tuxedo shirts about half wing and half fold and wear both equally!


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Y'all'r shur hy flutin'


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## cge (Sep 12, 2009)

Switching between wing and turn-down collars from evening to evening isn't preferable unless the evenings are different in ways that would warrant doing so. The two styles are quite different, and don't work well as simple variations. I find that varying the waistcoat works well, as does having several different collars (there are considerable and noticeable differences between different wing collars) and ties (slight shape difference). All three of those will have considerably less marked effects than changing from a wing to a double collar, while still being different.

I see no reason, however, to eschew wearing a wing collar with black tie simply because one wears one with white tie. The two still look very different, especially when one uses different styles of collar for each. Though all of my collars are higher than the dreadful attached ones so common today, most of my collars for white tie are taller and more pronounced than my collars for black tie.

Wing collars are, in my view, the traditionally correct choice from before unfortunate compromises started to be made.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

In the USA, the wing collar is absolutely required for evening formal/white tie - no wiggle room. For evening semi-formal/black tie, it is optional: you may wear a wing collar or a DOW-style turn down as you wish. 

Unfortunately, the wing collar may have picked up some baggage in recent years as a result of being pushed by the rental joints for their clown suits...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Richard Baker said:


> Taliesin, you are correct. However, as the other point out, some want the *wing tips* and opera pumps restricted to White Tie, where they originate from, like does the Tuxedo(!!) as such.


Wing tips are a shoe style. :icon_smile_big:


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## Richard Baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Jovan, correct, I meant wing collar.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Luis-F-S said:


> Of course there is! At least in this country! Most of us will never have need of or a chance to wear white tie; I have about a dozen tuxedo shirts about half wing and half fold and wear both equally!


You don't have the opportunity to wear white tie but have the opportunity to use a dozen tux shirts?:crazy:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I know, Mr. Baker, just poking fun.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Andy said:


> The wing collar is standard with white tie and tails and went though a high degree of popularity during the 1980's and early 90's with Black tie, but the straight collar is being seen more these days.


Is it OK to wear a button-down with black tie, Andy?


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

Brooksfan said:


> Is it OK to wear a button-down with black tie, Andy?


Careful!!!

You may get your license revoked ;-)


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If you're Stephen Colbert or Thom Browne, maybe!


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

I guess there might be a place for a wing collar with "Black Tie".

I found this out there and like the look.

Hmmm - does it look like his collar is in front of the tie?

Go figure.....


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## Cavendish (Nov 23, 2009)

A lot of stiff, detachable collars of yore were so stiff and unforgiving, that it was nearly impossible to wear the tie in front of the wings.


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## Jake1990 (Jan 5, 2009)

^ However, if possible the bow should be in front of the wings.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Wing collar looks best with DB , imo. There is a better sense of scale between the smaller V created by the DB and the wings. As in this example:






They also provide lift if you spend a good deal of time off the ground. :icon_smile_big:


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Finian McLonergan said:


> Wing collar looks best with DB , imo. There is a better sense of scale between the smaller V created by the DB and the wings. As in this example:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Though Fred Astaire did it, this was also before the turn-down collar became standard for black tie. The double-breasted jacket is less formal for black tie, so the formal wing collar looks a bit out of place. The way I see it, the wings look puny compared to the broad lapels found on a double-breasted jacket.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Matt S said:


> Though Fred Astaire did it, this was also before the turn-down collar became standard for black tie. The double-breasted jacket is less formal for black tie, so the formal wing collar looks a bit out of place. The way I see it, the wings look puny compared to the broad lapels found on a double-breasted jacket.


Astaire used the wing and turn-down collar interchangeably - along with many other variations of formal neckwear throughout his long career.

The example I provided was from 1935. In 1941, he used it again where he deliberately contrasts with the prosaic looking Bing Crosby, along with another actor, both of whom use the turn-down collar with a DB:






In 1950 he again uses the wing collar with a DB coat






He also wore wing collars with black tie, white waistcoat and unbuttoned SB jacket, though I don't think this works well, and he abandoned it after 1935.

If anything, I think the wing collar slightly lifts the formality of a DB black tie outfit by connecting it with a more traditional, more formal collar form. And I don't believe the comparisons of the white wings with the black satin lapels are germane since the eye generally compares shapes in identical or related colours, not complete opposites.

Where I would criticise the wing collar is that the band of the bow tie tends to break up the line somewhat. In any event, the real reasons, I suggest, that this look is less often seen are twofold: firstly, exposure of the bow-tie band means that only those who know how to tie a bow tie from scratch or who purchase sized ready-tied bow ties can wear it, therefore eliminating most of the male population, and secondly, it really requires a traditional detachable stiff wing collar to look right.


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

*Side note!*

Fred must have been a size 36 as at a size 46 (with a small pouch) I wouldn't look as good in a DB jacket?

His pants also looked about an inch too high? That may have been for aesthetics when dancing.

Lastly,
All of their ties looked to perfect. I could never get my tie to look so uniformed (nor would I). Nor could I get the silk to stay extremely tight. I must admit I'm somewhat new to bow ties.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Hello all, returning after a necessary absence, due to operational tasks. (Photos of me in uniform on request..maybe)

Also not sure what the naysayers are on about. A wing collar with black tie is still quite common in the UK and in Sweden. That said I don't wear one with black tie myself anmyore, as I no longer like the look of it. 
I last wore a wing collar with black tie in about 2000.
But there is absolutely nothing in European clothing etiquetta that says wing collars are to be worn with white tie only.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*What says the Black Tie Guide?*

This quote is from the discussion "Defining Classic Black Tie" found at https://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/1_Definition.htm :

*"black-tie shirt*

white fabric
collar can be:
• wing collar, described by many authorities as the most formal but some insist it is the exclusive domain of white tie; best styled as per full-dress wing-collar shirts and best paired with peaked-lapel jacket 
• turndown collar"

It seems to me that settles the question, and the harping on turndown should cease immediately:icon_smile_big:


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

If you are going to be a Rule purist then the only time you should wear a turn down collar with black tie is if you are wearing it as informal dinner dress eg to a restaurant, privately at home. If you are wearing it to a ball, formal event etc then the rule is that you must wear a stand up collar. Otherwise, you might as well be wearing shorts and sandals 

In case someone raises it, the Duke of Windsor _*never*_ wore a turn-down collar to a formal event - he only wore this _*informally*_ at the dinner table. The Duke is in absolutely no way, shape or form a precedent for wearing turn-down collars to _*formal*_ evening events.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Sator said:


> In case someone raises it, the Duke of Windsor _*never*_ wore a turn-down collar to a formal event - he only wore this _*informally*_ at the dinner table. The Duke is in absolutely no way, shape or form a precedent for wearing turn-down collars to _*formal*_ evening events.


Exactly, and glad you brought that up, because most of the photos of him in a turndown collar are clearly, based on location, from private dinners not from public events.


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## cge (Sep 12, 2009)

knezz said:


> All of their ties looked to perfect. I could never get my tie to look so uniformed (nor would I). Nor could I get the silk to stay extremely tight. I must admit I'm somewhat new to bow ties.


You might need your ties to be made with heavier interfacing? Or perhaps a different type of silk? They shouldn't need to be extremely tight in order to stay perfect.


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

cge said:


> You might need your ties to be made with heavier interfacing? Or perhaps a different type of silk? They shouldn't need to be extremely tight in order to stay perfect.


As mentioned I wouldn't want a perfectly uniformed tie. The individuality of a tie makes the look.

I wore mine last evening and was truely satified with it's anomalous feel.

It would be difficult to change to a heavier version or different silk as it is the match to my cummerbund. I will consider the density of the material during my next "tie/cummerbund purchase consideration. Thank you for the advice.


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

As I did additional reading --- the wing collar elivates the black tie uniform to be the most formal (the next step being white tie). Therefore, SB, non-vented, besom pockets, 1 button, waist coat, peaked - satin or grosgrain lapel and opera pumps are as formal as you can get in black tie?


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

My rough guide of black tie formality:
Best (e.g. ticketed event, lots of important people in attendance) - peak lapel, wing collar, waistcoat.
Mid (e.g. formal dinner) - peak lapel, turndown marcella collar, waistcoat.
Relaxed (e.g. friends' dinner; hosting a dinner) - shawl lapel, turndown collar with pleated front, waistcoat or cummerbund depending on temperature, Albert slippers if hosting a dinner.


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## knezz (Nov 28, 2009)

DougNZ said:


> My rough guide of black tie formality:
> Best (e.g. ticketed event, lots of important people in attendance) - peak lapel, wing collar, waistcoat. +1
> 
> Mid (e.g. formal dinner) - peak lapel, turndown marcella collar, waistcoat. +1 with the option of cummerbund.
> ...


That is a reasoned approach.

BTW - I attended a black tie event where both the mayor and governor (along with other officials) attended and neither had on a dinner suit. Go figure? That should have been listed as a more formal event.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Sator said:


> If you are going to be a Rule purist then the only time you should wear a turn down collar with black tie is if you are wearing it as informal dinner dress eg to a restaurant, privately at home. If you are wearing it to a ball, formal event etc then the rule is that you must wear a stand up collar. Otherwise, you might as well be wearing shorts and sandals
> 
> In case someone raises it, the Duke of Windsor _*never*_ wore a turn-down collar to a formal event - he only wore this _*informally*_ at the dinner table. The Duke is in absolutely no way, shape or form a precedent for wearing turn-down collars to _*formal*_ evening events.


This whole point is moot if you consider that black tie itself is only meant to be a semi-formal thing, not worn to formal events.

The reason turn down collars are preferred is that it shows that one has a set of appropriate clothes for both black tie and white tie dress. Having the right kit is what matters.


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## digby_snaffles (May 18, 2009)

It's all well and good reminding us that the dinner suit was founded as informal evening dress but we have to accept that the formality of the dress is sadly relative to increasing informality today and the decline of full evening dress, which 'black-tie' is mostly worn in lieu of. Given the greater range of occasions it is generally deemed suitable for, as Sator said, the choice of collar is interchangeable given the formality of the event. Unfortunately there is a different between what something is meant to be and what it is.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

knezz said:


> Is there any place in "Black Tie" for a wing collar?
> 
> I scored a removable wing collar from Brooks Brothers. I've read a few lines of information but didn't see any for or against wing collars for "Black Tie".
> 
> I know that wing collars are definately for "White Tie" but what about "Black Tie"? I've seen quite a few classic films from the 40's and 50's where wing collars were worn with "Black Tie" (but doesn't mean it's correct).


I assume that you mean you bought one?

They are quite acceptable with 'black tie' wear either turn down or wing at you choice and ignore the nonsense posted to the contrary.


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## Sean1982 (Sep 7, 2009)

I wear a detachable wing collar and stiff fronted shirt (with black studs) for black tie, but only with my peaked lapeal grosgrain dj and waistcoat. Shawl collar or DB gets a marcella attached turndown collarshirt (variously with waistcoats or grosgrain cummerbund). Satin or notch lapels are not in my wardrobe.

Two picture of this look from my birthday party last Friday (one is when I was at home, a surprise action picture when I was talking and putting my match striker in my pocket, so looks a bit silly)

https://img52.imageshack.us/i/blacktie1.jpg/

https://img248.imageshack.us/i/blacktie2.jpg/


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

When I had my Tuxedo made, it came with a wing collar shirt. 

I've always thought it looked more appropriate with bowties myself, as the lines don't "conflict" in the same fashion as turn down collars.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Sean: Nice getup. One of the better defences for a wing collar with black tie. Curiously, the pictures of Bertie Wooster and the 1925 illustration only made me think, "Great, but I wish it had a turn down collar."


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