# Made in England - oops China!



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Having read the Henry Poole/ Hanloon Tailor thread I am reminded of another story that shocked me when I heard it last year. That is, even the sacred and beloved English Northampton shoe industry is not free of this "Made in England - oh sorry that should say India disception.

Loake, Barker, Grenson, and so I was told all the "lower end" English shoemakers now have the majority ( don't know about their most expensive ranges) of their shoes made in India and are looking at China!

I have it on very very good authority from two people inside the industry that the uppers are made in the Far East for peanuts and then attached to the soles in the UK. This alone allows them to write "Made in England" on the shoes - because the welting and attaching of the sole involves enough work to say this. At the moment Goodyear welting is not done or not well done in the Far East so it is still done here.

My two sources ( both very different - and unconnected) told me that only the most expensive makers now truly make their shoes in England - C&J, Church's, John Lobb, EG , etal. There is some doubt about Trickers bespoke service ( how the hell can you make a bespoke shoe for £850? and therefore IMO it raises quesitons about whether they outsource some other work too?)

I find it disturbing that even a hallowed industry like English shoemaking is not immune from the drift of production to the Far East. I hope that the more expensive makes I have mentioned do not follow suit but I wouldn't put it past them. The only one I feel sure won't is Edward Green - it is small and I think committed to its Englishness - just my opinon. I do think it will be quite some time however before Church's , C&J, and higher up still JL will feel forced to go down the same route. Well, when I say " forced" they are all selling everything they make - it will not be down to "can't sell anymore at a truly "made in England" price" - it will be as usual - " oh wow we can make much more money if we go to the Far East".

As one of my sources said " It provides jobs for people in China and India but at what cost? - we don't really know the working conditions even though the MDs of said companies protest we do, and the carbon footprint of the product is horrendous." Also it was said that the quality went down when this mode of manufacturing was brought in - not by a huge amount but by enough was the comment.

So, does anyone know of any other "heritage" product like this - "Made in England/USA/ Austria" - substitute what you will but really and truly most of it is made in the Far East?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The swiss, known for chocolate, watches, red handled knives and now a considerable amount of money laundering for nazis have a dirty secret. For a watch to be considered swiss made I believe @ 20% of the parts must be from swiss sources.The rest can be from anywhere beyond the shadow of the Matterhorn. I just encountered yet more exchange rate and outsourcing shock today. This twit managed to smash the Brown Betty I've owned for two decades. So off to the local import shoppe. They aren't marked Sadler , are made in Southeast Asia and cost a rediculous amount. Fortunately there is EBAY. Unfortunately my tea supplier in Bath just stopped taking orders via post and International Money Order.they want a C/C probably processed in India down the road from the tea plantation. I just boiled my last Earl Grey. I'd weep in my handkerchief for the ignobility of it all, but being irish linen actually made in Ireland and not Red China I'm afraid to.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Kav - that handerchief could become a collectors item in oh.....lets say one year - in fact it may even be now that Irish linen is being made in Communist China! Funny how Western business men manage to over come a severe allergic reaction to Communism and all its evils when it comes to making money!! Where are people's principles these days?


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

Look at it very simply. Everyone in the west wants to:

Be paid at high wages
Buy at low prices

The two things do not sit together in basic economics hence manufacturers need to look to those markets where wages are low.

Take your choice.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

That's true.
We've discussed the whole 'made in China' thing before on this forum and the important thing to remember is that it doesn't necessarily mean that the watch parts / clothing / whatever is lower quality than if it was made in Switzerland / USA.
Often manufacturers go to China and take the machinery and the expertise with them and just recreate the workroom exactly as it was in Switzerland only with cheaper staff.
In some cases you can even see an increase in quality with a move to China.
Of course the romance is lost...


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## trolperft (Feb 7, 2007)

It is irresistible trend.
As long as the quality does not go down,
I don't mind where the product are made.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England -opps China*

Are we discussing quality or quanty ? the finest made goods are made in Europe and America, Watches , cars , clothing , electronics , etc. 
Are there any Japanese cars that match Porsche , Mercedes S series , BMW 
7 series , what about Ferrari , Rolls Royce , Bentley and even Aston Martin ?
Watches range from Rolex , Audemars Pigeut , Piaget , Patek Phillipe Breguet.
or Vacheron Constantin.
Men clothing includes Brioni , Attolini , Borrelli , Kiton , Oxxford , John Lobb , Edward Green , Turnbull Astor etc. Can the Asians match clothing made in Europe or America ?

Those of us who are interested knows that the finest electronics are still made either in America or Europe. How about Pianos, violins , The list is almost endless. Here I am not discussing China but Japan which is far ahead of China and India in development.

The Western European and American workers are still the finest workers in the world , they have for over 200 years produced the finest quality goods and services in the world's history , lets not forget that.


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## Infrasonic (May 18, 2007)

*Transparency*

For me the transparency is the key issue. Not bothered what the percentages of foreign versus home manufacture are, as long as it is truthfully passed on to the customer and they can make a judgement based on that info.

Peraps as a % split in terms of man hours (minutes?) spent on the product in each country.

It seems at the moment that advantage is being taken of the legislation to obscure the true source of the majority of the work.

Funnily enough I noticed a local discount shoe shop selling Loake and Grenson at very keen prices only yesterday! Some were seconds, but the majority were not......

I


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Those of us who are interested knows that the finest electronics are still made either in America or Europe. How about Pianos, violins , The list is almost endless. Here I am not discussing China but Japan which is far ahead of China and India in development.


Sviatoslav Richter, the legendary Russian pianist, preferentially played a Yamaha.

You also seem to forget Koji Suzuki:

There are other bespoke shoemakers and tailors in Japan who offer exceptional high end stuff.

ADDIT: this is my no means a defense of cheap mass production in sweat shops located in China or India


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## upnorth (Jun 18, 2007)

No use fighting the inevitable. The migration of production to China is also fueled by a dearth of the younger population's participation in long held traditions like tailoring and shoe-making. Speak to any teens on the street today and all they want are adidas apparels and nike shoes made in China. 

The main repurcussion I fear might be a two tier market participation with those products still made in the West becoming increasingly expensive. If everything is going to be made in the Orient, I fear there would be a drastic drop in quality and also a distancing from long held European traditions. Chinese companies even now are hardly ever concerned about having the highest quality. They care about figures like lowest per unit cost or the highest output per worker. Quality mantras there are as simple as doing your best to avoid product recalls and minimize wastage . A lot more seconds are definitely going to be paased off as top quality. This is neither good for consumers nor ultimately the companies who outsource their work to cheaper developing countries. 

The most discerning and affluent Chinese consumers still come to Europe to shop or choose to go for European made products.


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## Infrasonic (May 18, 2007)

upnorth said:


> .
> The most discerning and affluent Chinese consumers still come to Europe to shop or choose to go for European made products.


The flipside to that is that it will create a demand for high quality in the domestic market. So I could see English trained Chinese apprentices becoming a trend, who could then set-up a bespoke franchise in China.

I believe some Japanese have apprenticed at some of the UK bespoke shoe makers along these lines.

I


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England - oops China*

There is no doubt that Japan manufacturers fine products , but I think most would agree that Japan is not interested in building the finest.
The finest or the best is left to the Europeans or Americans. As for as pianos 
no one would in all honesty compare a Yamaha to a Steinway or Bosendorfer.
As in most items produced in Japan or anywhere outside of America or Europe they are excellent products but are seen more or less as a well made substitute for the finest generally at a lower price.

There is not enough space here to list all the pianist that performed with the pianos I posted above starting with the great Franz List.
The photo's Sator posted of Japanese bespoke shoes are excellent. I would think that European bespoke shoemakers would produce a better shoe but at a higher price.
In my opinion the finest clothing or for that matter anything is still produced in America or Europe. To save money buy items made elsewhere.


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## kaiiwa (Oct 15, 2006)

Globalization!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, would you purchase a Ferrari made in China?
The high end Swiss watch makers are not happy about the souring of other parts(ie.bands, cases, parts) by other lower end brands and putting "Swiss Made" on their watches.
Technically, still "Swiss Made", but in fact compared to the higher end brands they are not 100% Swiss Made. This dilutes the "Swiss Made" brand.

Globalization can not be stopped. What I find offensive and misleading are brands that market themselves as "British", or " German", "Italian" quality and have their products actually manufactured in China.

But it is not only products made in China but look at MB, BMW, Toyota, etc..manufacturing autos. in the U.S. If I want MB or BMW I want a German made auto not an American made German auto. 

I got in a huge argument with some dolt whom loves Jaguars. Jaguars of the past were English made and thus the charm or headache in which they know for. Today, Jaguar is part of Ford and have Volvo parts rebadged EuroFord autos in their lineup. Jaguar is no longer Jaguar of the past that he loved so much. However, he does not see the point.

For us, it is buyer beware and do your homework before purchasing.
BTW, both of our German autos. were made in Germany. :aportnoy:


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## markdc (May 17, 2007)

*"swiss made"*



Kav said:


> The swiss, known for chocolate, watches, red handled knives and now a considerable amount of money laundering for nazis have a dirty secret. For a watch to be considered swiss made I believe @ 20% of the parts must be from swiss sources.The rest can be from anywhere beyond the shadow of the Matterhorn.





kaiiwa said:


> Globalization!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> LOL, would you purchase a Ferrari made in China?
> The high end Swiss watch makers are not happy about the souring of other parts(ie.bands, cases, parts) by other lower end brands and putting "Swiss Made" on their watches.
> Technically, still "Swiss Made", but in fact compared to the higher end brands they are not 100% Swiss Made. This dilutes the "Swiss Made" brand.


"Moreover, a law *"regulating the use of the name 'Swiss' for watches*" sets out the minimum conditions that have to be fulfilled before a watch merits the "Swiss made" label. 
This law is based on a concept according to which Swiss quality depends on the amount of work actually carried out on a watch in Switzerland, even if some foreign components are used in it. It therefore requires that the assembly work on the movement (the motor of the watch) and on the watch itself (fitting the movement with the dial, hands and the various parts of the case) should be carried out in Switzerland, along with the final testing of the movement. It also requires that at least 50% of the components of the movement should be manufactured in Switzerland. 
Certain regions in Switzerland have their own "place of origin" labels. One of the most renowned is "*Genève*", which identifies top-quality timepieces made in the city and canton of Geneva. Like "Swiss made", this label is very popular with counterfeiters and therefore benefits from continuous protection within the framework of the FH's anti-counterfeiting programme. 
The Swiss watch industry is very active in safeguarding the integrity of "Swiss made" and its other regional labels of quality. 
The vigilant consumer can also play an effective supporting role. By choosing reputable sales points and not being tempted by deals that are as dubious as they are outlandish, he or she will help to thwart counterfeiters, protect his or her own interests and contribute to the defence of fair trading. 
The FH and its regional representatives will be happy to provide further information on this subject."

more information from the federation of the swiss watch industry: https://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php


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## arenn (Dec 29, 2003)

Japan actually has a very long tradition of high quality craftmanship.

The truth will be told in the shoes sold in the United States. The US has very strict country of original labeling. Stricter than the EU, I believe. Simply doing the final stitching or something in Northampton would not allow the shoe to be labeled in Made in England in the US.


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## spectre (May 12, 2007)

As far as high-end cars go: The bulk of BMWs and Mercedes Benz cars are made in South Africa. Mercedes has long suffered from endemic electronic problems after the company decided some years ago they were over-engineered and now they are under-engineered. In Germany they are regarded as "agricultural."
The BMW Seven series is unfathomable as well as downright ugly.
An elderly German friend of mine (who lives in California), who won the Nobel Prize for engineering years ago, owns a Lexus which he says is far superior to BMW and Mercedes.
As for electronics, I have two new Grundig TVs and both have had problems I never experienced with Japanese brands. They remain overly complex and I wouldn't buy outside Japan (or China) again.
As far as clothes go, as long as there is quality control from the original company I don't see how it matters. Would you rather have the same product from Italy for twice the price (and it may have been made by Chinese immigrant workers working in Italian factories for low wages).


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## TKDKid (Mar 20, 2004)

Leather man said:


> There is some doubt about Trickers bespoke service ( how the hell can you make a bespoke shoe for £850? and therefore IMO it raises quesitons about whether they outsource some other work too?)


I seem to remember reading somewhere that Tricker's bespoke shoes are machine-made rather than hand-made a la Cleverley et al, which explains the low cost. It may just be a case of feeding the shoes through their normal production line as a special order once your lasts have been made up.


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## Dolle Dolf (Feb 7, 2006)

I prefer not to buy goods from Asia. Partly because of that "soul" thing. I would rather continue to drive my old Alfa Romeo than buy a MX5. And will continue to drive my 96 Jag instead of a Honda or a Toyota, no matter if it comes with a fake posh Lexus or Acura badge on it. Those things never ran the Targa Florio or Le Mans, when it counted. With some purchases however I fear that it cannot be avoided. The lady of the manor wanted a minivan for the brood, and we ended up with an Odyssey as it simply was the best value for our money. Cameras, TVs, videos, motorcycles, really no comparison. However, I feel that there will always be a top layer of comsumer articles that will be from the EC or the USA. Niche high priced items. For the discerning few, and unfortunately often out of reach for people on a relatively normal income. Now all give thanks to STP


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Most countries have pretty liberal labelling laws which specify that only part of the good needs to be made in the country to call it "Made in USA/England/Italy." Through some legal loophole, goods made in Saipan are labelled as "Made in the USA." 

I know the former manager of a south asian textile factory which produced jeans for Ecko clothing. He told me they made the jeans at their factory, but shipped them to the USA without any tags in them (care tags, brand tags, or logo badges.) In America they sewed all the tags on and put on the price tag and labelled in "Made in the USA"

Nowadays, all clothing companies whether they cater to the ultra-rich or not will cut any and all corners for profit if they think customers won't notice. Today's clothing companies care more about brand aura than workmanship. Some time ago, one of the exec's from Prada was extolling the virtues of having the shoes made in eastern Europe and only doing final assembly between the uppers and the soles in Italy at a trade convention. Stay tuned, your favourite brand is soon to follow.


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## LoveFashion (Jun 28, 2007)

*Quality is More important than Country of Origin*

As long as the quality does not go down and the factory has a good welfare policy for workers, there is no porblem to buy goods from China.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

LoveFashion said:


> As long as the quality does not go down and the factory has a good welfare policy for workers, there is no porblem to buy goods from China.


Are you Chinese?


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## LoveFashion (Jun 28, 2007)

Bogdanoff said:


> Are you Chinese?


Are you?


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England-oops China*

Most of the items listed and discussed on Ask Andy or usually very high quality. few if any or made in Japan or China. The clothing listed here is in the same category as the S series Mercedes , 7 series BMW , Rolls Royce , Bentley , Porsche , Aston Martin etc.
I don't think any of the cars listed above is made in the far east. Nor do I think Brioni , John Lobb , Kiton , Oxxford , Attolini , Borrelli etc. , is manufactured in the far east.

If we are truly talking about high end quality we are talking about western Europe or America. 
In electronic equipment there is also a high end that matches the clothing discussed here on Ask Andy , Audio Research , Mark Levinson , McIntosh,
etc., a few of the high end electronic equipment that would match the clothing discussed here the majority of the time.

For example I have Marantz and McIntosh tube equipment built in the 1960's
that is still giving outstanding performance although almost 50 years old. What far eastern products can make that statement.
I drive an 8 series BMW that is 12 years old , there are few Japanese cars that can match it built today.

As posted in an earlier post if one wishes to have the finest , one looks to western Europe or America. Elsewhere is only a compromise.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

I think that there are three points in the above posts that need comment.

1. Why should we assume that, if a European company moved its entire operation--equipment, procedures, etc.--to China and then hired Chinese workers to produce the goods (workers who were properly trained and monitored for long enough to determine that they could produce quality products), the resulting products would necessarily be inferior to those produced on the same equipment, with the some processes, in Europe? It seems to me that the "long tradition" argument is mostly fallacious when we're really talking about low-level, young European workers--the ones who do the actual work. How does this "long tradition" somehow permeate the work products of a 20-year-old entry-level worker who is thinking more about the upcoming weekend plans than about this tradition of which he is a part? With proper training, established standards, and the same equipment, materials, and processes, why couldn't the corresponding 20-year-old Chinese worker produce something of equal value? Perhaps this equality wouldn't be apparent right away--while the Chinese workers are learning something new--but after several years, I'd be surprised if there'd be any noticeable difference. All of this assumes, of course, that the company that's moved production off-shore intends to maintain existing quality.

2. This argument about moving production to third-world countries creating squalor, poverty of life, and desperation for the third-world workers seems to ignore the fact that it has created employment in many, many cases where none existed before. The result is that the workers' standard of living has actually been raised by the presence of the US or UK company there. Sure, 50 cents per hour would represent poverty for a US worker, but might well enable the Chinese worker to live far better than he would otherwise. Perhaps we should ask these third-world workers whether their lives have been degraded (or improved) before we trot out that argument.

3. I think that there's considerable evidence that silverporsche's assertions about the superiority of European products to Japanese ones aimed at the same market segment are incorrect. Perhaps it depends on the criteria of quality we use. Certainly, if we use criteria of workmanship, reliability, performance, etc. (as opposed to some vague notions of "tradition" emanating from the fact that an earlier version of the European product won some prestigious prize--as though that fact endows, as if by some analog of ancestral memory, some intangible quality on the present-day products made by the same company), many high-end Japanese products, ranging from cars (like Lexus) to cameras (Canon, Nikon), etc., from all reports I've read for many years now, appear to beat the pants off their European counterparts. With the exception of shoes, however, I don't think this applies to clothes. Still, I think we need to separate fact from fallacy here--the latter based on long-disproven stereotypes.


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> The finest or the best is left to the Europeans or Americans. produced in America or Europe. .


Bollocks! The only thing Americans make is the toothbrush.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

Seeing factories shuttered in the UK and having work sent to low-cost labor countries does affect quality. For example, pre 2003 Doc Martens are superior to the ones currently being made in Thailand. People who do not know better think they are buying an English shoe steeped in British subculture when in fact they are paying for just a name and a plasticky shoe and rewarding the bottom line of a slighly deceptive company.

I do not mind paying more for my goods if they are made in a developed country for the fact that I feel that I am atually dressed as opposed to wearing a costume hastily produced along with 60,000 similar garmets that day.

If consumers show all that matters is the lowest cost possible then we will have no diversity. All of us will be wearing Dockers pants.

Bottom line is when Tyrwhitt and the like masquerade as an English shirt company and enjoy the low cost and quality of Asian manufacturing - I feel lied to and want to smash things.


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## Dolle Dolf (Feb 7, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> ... S series Mercedes , 7 series BMW ... Aston Martin etc....Brioni , John Lobb , Kiton , Oxxford , Attolini , Borrelli
> ....Audio Research , Mark Levinson , McIntosh,
> I drive an 8 series BMW is 12 years old , there are few Japanese cars that can match it built today
> if one wishes to have the finest , one looks to western Europe or America. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England - oops China*

Is Oxxford made in the United States ? I thought Chicago was an American city. An English engineer told me years ago that the difference between a Japanese car and an European car was character. Each European car British , Italian , German , French , etc,. has a different character. The Japanese build excellent cars but they lack character. They are all very much the same.

Clothing is no different an Oxxford suit is very different than a Bironi suit.
How would one compare a Borrelli shirt to a Ralph Lauren Purple Label shirt?
The issue here I think is quality ,and image , to compare a Lexus to a S500 Mercedes makes little since. it is the same as comparing a Rolex to a Seiko. The Seiko is an excellent watch , but wouldn't one rather wear a Rolex.

James Bond would never drive a Japanese car , poor image as well as average performance. Aston Martins Vanquist or DB9 would be the car as well
as a Brioni suit and Turnbull Astor shirt. Image plus quality.
You want value buy Japanese image plus Quality European.


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

George Bush in an Oxxford really looks nice huh. My friend you are so naive. Europeans are so much engrossed in Asian culture. They learn and absorb from it. Have you seen the intricacies and the beauty of Japanese woodworking? Where do you think Monet learnt the art of perspective? Ando Hiroshige!! The Y chair by Hans Wegner is a copy of the Chinese chair. Cars have different perspective in different countries. Georgio Armani copied so many Asian motifs. If you go to Paris, near Bastille... most of the furniture designs are Japanese influenced. Silk weaving is second to none. Yeah savile row is the best for suits and stuttgart/fiorano is the best for motors no doubt. But you just cannot say the rest are idiots. That is very dangerous to the mind. Remember slavery was justified by CALLING black people as " Not hUMANS".

Rolex is not that great. It was made great by advertizing. There are some really good Seiko Watches. Rolex didnt even have it;s own movement.



silverporsche said:


> Is Oxxford made in the United States ? I thought Chicago was an American city. An English engineer told me years ago that the difference between a Japanese car and an European car was character. Each European car British , Italian , German , French , etc,. has a different character. The Japanese build excellent cars but they lack character. They are all very much the same.
> 
> Clothing is no different an Oxxford suit is very different than a Bironi suit.
> How would one compare a Borrelli shirt to a Ralph Lauren Purple Label shirt?
> ...


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England- oops China*

Where was there any mention of idiots in any post ? What does the issue of Black people , slavery and non-humans have to do with quality and image in clothing and cars ?
The Japanese manufacture excellent products , it is just that if you want the finest clothes , cars , are any high end product it is usually made in either Europe or America not Japan.

Rolex is an excellent watch , but there are other Swiss watches that are better , there is no Japanese watch that matches the top Swiss watches listed in an earlier post.
As for as President Bush and Oxxford . I don't get the connection. Sure he wears Oxxford and so did Cary Grant. Oxxford is an excellent American made suit , many members of this forum wear Oxxford suits.

I will say for the last time if you want value for your money buy Japanese , 
if you are looking for the finest and value is not the issue than it usually is European. 
Ferrari is a great car is it a good value more than likely no , but the person that buys a Ferrari is looking not for value but image , performance , class , 
etc, etc, It is no different when a man buys a kiton , Hermes, , or John Lobb?


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

Finest clothes are not made in America. Period. Oxxford uses italian cloth etc. There is nothing fine in America. Quality of Ford,Chevy,GM....Zenith, etc is rubbish and is worse than third world products. American clothes used to be excellent. Those days are over. There is nothing here. Brooks brothers suck. Allen edmonds are like wearing CLOGS. 
I have a NAD CD player made in china. Now if this was made in England, i wouldnt have been able to afford it. The quality is superb. Reviews and self tests show that the little monster is in par with costlier CD players, made in "wherever". If you define your specs and create standards, there is no reason why a product cannot be excellent wherever manufactured.

A BMW, AUDI etc have bad qualities in terms of reliability. To the japanese it is all about perfection. Look at the Sony Walkman and their camcorders... no european company or American company can ever manufacture such products. I have driven BMW's from 1980's to current ones. The latest ones have no soul. They are victims of marketing. They are heavy and drab. A infiniti G35 or a is350 IS has better performance, looks better than the stupid Chris Bangle design.



silverporsche said:


> Where was there any mention of idiots in any post ? What does the issue of Black people , slavery and non-humans have to do with quality and image in clothing and cars ?
> The Japanese manufacture excellent products , it is just that if you want the finest clothes , cars , are any high end product it is usually made in either Europe or America not Japan.
> 
> Rolex is an excellent watch , but there are other Swiss watches that are better , there is no Japanese watch that matches the top Swiss watches listed in an earlier post.
> ...


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## spectre (May 12, 2007)

How on earth are we lumping America in with Western Europe when it comes to quality products.
Sure they make (stodgy) Oxxford - what else?
As far as cars go, which models can compete with high-end European (or Japanese) makes?


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

It is realistic to say, if you are talking about a heritage product such as a bespoke suit, which is the national dress of the English, you would expect the finest examples of this dress to be made in England. As they are. Is this important? Yes. It makes the garment authentic.


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## upnorth (Jun 18, 2007)

Agreed. I don't expect a kimono to be made in Indonesia or a cheongsam to be made in Italy. Some things are best left to be made in the country of origin.


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## A Guy from Shanghai (May 9, 2007)

Roger said:


> I think that there are three points in the above posts that need comment.
> 
> 1. Why should we assume that, if a European company moved its entire operation--equipment, procedures, etc.--to China and then hired Chinese workers to produce the goods (workers who were properly trained and monitored for long enough to determine that they could produce quality products), the resulting products would necessarily be inferior to those produced on the same equipment, with the some processes, in Europe? It seems to me that the "long tradition" argument is mostly fallacious when we're really talking about low-level, young European workers--the ones who do the actual work. How does this "long tradition" somehow permeate the work products of a 20-year-old entry-level worker who is thinking more about the upcoming weekend plans than about this tradition of which he is a part? With proper training, established standards, and the same equipment, materials, and processes, why couldn't the corresponding 20-year-old Chinese worker produce something of equal value? Perhaps this equality wouldn't be apparent right away--while the Chinese workers are learning something new--but after several years, I'd be surprised if there'd be any noticeable difference. All of this assumes, of course, that the company that's moved production off-shore intends to maintain existing quality.
> 
> ...


I could not agree with you more, Roger.



silverporsche said:


> ...You want value buy Japanese image plus Quality European.


You be the judge. Here is my case. I own an 2006 Audi A6 3.2 Quattro. In the first year, I took it to the dealerships at least 5 times. First, the trunk won't latch. Who would suspect such a single part could be defective. But sadly it was. Shortly after, it had a oil pan leaking problem. Last winter, it suddenly lost power while i was in the middle of driving on a freezing night. The cold was unbearable for my son, my wife, and I because the car had no heat (since no power). My wife started to blame me for having bought this piece of junk. We finally took a cab home becasue the car had to be towed to the dealership. I was without my car for 3 days because the Audi dealership were packed with cars needed to be serviced and they ran out of their courtesy cars. Just not long ago, the cup holder located at rear center support would't eject. Now the speakers (bose) make some weired noises once a while (while they do, you can not hear anything but these noises). Since they only happened a few times, so I am waiting them to be totally broken. I am sure that won't be long.

Oh, by the way, there is a label on the side of the driver's door says "Made In Germany".

A couple weeks ago, while I was walking towards my car at Costco parking lot, I saw a Korean lady was smashing her BMW 530i trunk door over and over trying to get it latched. It apparently had the same problem as my audi did once.

My romance to Germen cars is over, at least for the near future.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Keep in mind this is a clothing forum, not a foreign motors club.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

*MYTH*

Some have claimed Citizen Kane as Orson Welles' greatest achievement when in fact it is his perfect refutation of the myth of French superiority in champagne manufacturing:




If a celebrated champagne can be produced outside of France, then clearly as Mr. Welles demonstrated, excellence can come from anywhere in the world!


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

The sad part is that only the rich can afford bespoke clothing. In the past everyone had a tailor.


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## A Guy from Shanghai (May 9, 2007)

Bogdanoff said:


> Keep in mind this is a clothing forum, not a foreign motors club.


I ranted about my Audi story without thinking. My apologies to everyone.


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## Bracemaker (May 11, 2005)

Bogdanoff said:


> Keep in mind this is a clothing forum, not a foreign motors club.


I'm not trying to be pedantic, but...this is the WORLD wide web so what precisely is 'foreign'? No one mentioned the build quality of UFO's yet...


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

I have no issue with made in China and theoretically the quality could be as good there as it is in England. I am a delighted WW Chan customer and think that they make as good a product as anyone. Unfortunately many makers use their move offshore as an opportunity to also adopt inferior ingredients or techniques.

As mentioned earlier, globalization is an irresistable trend for mass market goods. Native artisans should be able to continue their work for the small subset who appreciates their quality. Incidentally, I predict the Chinese only have 15 to 20 years before they really begin to feel the pinch of outsourcing to India and Africa.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

A Guy from Shanghai said:


> I ranted about my Audi story without thinking. My apologies to everyone.


No need whatsoever to apologize. This thread is about the effects of moving production off-shore, and other posters introduced products other than clothing long before you did--watches, cars, etc. A wider perspective than merely clothing can enable us to better understand the phenomenon more generally--and this will enhance our understanding of it as it applies to clothes. :icon_smile:

_Edit:_ Just as an aside, my wife had similar problems with an Audi sedan a few years ago. It was always in the shop, and the repairs and replacement parts were unconscionably expensive, once it went off warrranty. She is now happier than hell with her Toyota Camry.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England oops China*

Ask Andy is a forum that discusses men's clothing. Some of the clothing discussed here is very expensive. Is a Kiton suit a good value ? to some it is overpriced. Why would one pay $500.00 for a Borrelli shirt ? or $1000.00
for a Burberry raincoat ? there are shirts and raincoats that are less expensive and may be a better value.
Certainly Japanese products are aimed at a different market than most high end European and American goods.
Would one really compare a Bentley to a Lexus ? or a Rolex to a Seiko.
Some of the finest audio equipment is made in America.

What one buys in high end European and America products is image , class , tradition , and maybe quality. I once owned a Porsche 911 and an E-Type Jaguar both cars are not trouble free. I had little interest in value or reliable , 
what I wanted was image , tradition and class. Those cars are not for everyone. a Brioni is not not for everyone and neither is a bespoke suit.

The average suit sold in America is somewhere around $200 dollars , shoes $50 dollars. Ask Andy is not about average. When is a pair of Edward Green
shoes considered average ? 
The thread reads made in "England oops China". England has the tradition dating back to the 19th century , to all of you who put down American made goods , there is no finer an engineering item that an American aircraft carrier.
No one in the world other than America has the technology are money to produce such an item. 
The suits made in England and Italy are the finest in the world. They are not for the average. Suits made in China are.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

silverporsche said:


> Ask Andy is a forum that discusses men's clothing. Some of the clothing discussed here is very expensive. Is a Kiton suit a good value ? to some it is overpriced. Why would one pay $500.00 for a Borrelli shirt ? or $1000.00
> for a Burberry raincoat ? there are shirts and raincoats that are less expensive and may be a better value.
> Certainly Japanese products are aimed at a different market than most high end European and American goods.
> Would one really compare a Bentley to a Lexus ? or a Rolex to a Seiko.
> ...


In my opinion, this is only partly correct. You have compared a Bentley to a Lexus. That is the wrong comparison. A better one would have been a Mercedes Benz to a Lexus--with the prices as close to equal as possible. With this comparison, not only is the Lexus the better value proposition (value for money), but it is also simply better. So it is not always "value for money" (which you are suggesting is the only reason to buy Japanese), but also sometimes just value, period. You have indicated that what you want is "image, tradition, and class," all intangible and subjective qualities. But, I would ask you "what good is tradition if the quality that established that tradition is now gone?" Would you really prefer an inferior car (watch, camera, etc.) simply because at one time that brand was the best, but now is decidedly not any more? To me at least, that seems like pretty empty "value." And what exactly is "class"? At least here in Vancouver, I would say that Lexus is seen as "classy" as MB and creates the same "image" of wealth (if that's what you want).


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## ChriO (Feb 23, 2006)

It is no problem at all to produce goods in China that are equal in quality to their European or U.S. counterparts:

1. Train the workers to be as good as their counterparts overseas.
2. Give them high quality tools to work with.
3. Supply them with high quality materials.
4. Make sure that they are motivated to produce quality.

All of this is possible, there is one main reason why it isn't happening on a large scale: Companies focused on cutting costs usually don't aim at producing top quality at lower costs than in Europe or the U.S. but go for acceptable quality at lowest possible costs.
The high end brands who are interested in top quality don't want the image problem that comes with "Made in China".

China is a market bigger than the U.S. and the EU combined. It is only a question of time until Chinese companies are going to rival the quality produced by today's leading brands. All that is needed is a little shift in focus, a domestic demand for Chinese high quality products to give those companies an initial market for their products and some time to catch up.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

ChriO said:


> It is no problem at all to produce goods in China that are equal in quality to their European or U.S. counterparts


Yet doing so shows a lack of loyalty to the very society the traditional values of which are supposed to be part of the image of both the clothes and the clothing maker.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*made in England -oops China*

Finally I would add that wearing a Burberry raincoat is something special it has tradition , quality , and class. It has that little something extra, pride of ownership. A Brioni suit is no different , the italians make the finest cloth for men's clothing in the world , to wear an Italian suit is more than wearing a suit it is something special.
Lexus is an excellent car , but a S series Mercedes is something special as is a Jaguar XJR , they both turn heads and both items have a long tradition of 
racing , and building fine sports and motorcars that goes back many years.

Lexus does not have that tradition nor does any product made in Japan. 
Call it status , greed , image etc. but we as humans some of us are willing to pay for the those values listed. 
It takes many years for any manufacturer to obtain the image and status of a Brioni , Hermes , John Lobb , Kiton , Oxxford , or Burberry. 
As for as value how can one place a value on an Aston Martin motorcar , it is very expensive to buy and very expensive to maintain. But to own one , wow !, to be seen driving one double wow !!

What's the point of being successful if one does not show it off in clothing , a fine home , cars , boats etc. Does not the lion roar , the eagle scream and the stallion rear up to show the world I am the best. Are humans any different.
I drive a car that gets terrible gas mileage , has high maintenance , but boy 
it turns heads , the same as with the cloths I wear, expensive , high maintenance clothing but boy does those clothes turn heads. It is not for everyone.
My cars are European and so are my clothes with the exception of some of my suits , Oxxford . Hickey Freeman and Ralph Lauren.
Those are my values , wearing a Burberry raincoat coat is like wearing a piece of British history or classic Hollywood , remember Casablanca.

The Lexus is an excellent car, excellent transportation, but one buys a S series Mercedes and a Burberry raincoat for more than transportation.


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## ChriO (Feb 23, 2006)

The problem with image, tradition or whatever it can be called in this context is that this unfathomable essence of luxury products is not a part of a product's quality. Image is really in the eye of the beholder and a sometimes fleeting thing.



silverporsche said:


> [...], but a S series Mercedes is something special as is a Jaguar XJR , they both turn heads[...]


That example clearly makes my point. No - from a German point of view there is nothing that turns heads about a S series Mercedes or a Jaguar XJR. Too common on German streets to be worth mentioning. A Jaguar is not as common as a Mercedes, but in Germany it is often ridiculed for it's build quality. Not much of an image there.

What turns heads in one country is just an expensive but in no way special car in another. In the end it comes down to build quality and price if a manufacturer wants to survive. Cars is one of the first market segments where Chinese products are going to give the established brands fierce competition - quality wise and value for money as well.
Chinese cars, brands that hardly anybody here is familiar with today, are going to hit the market hard - in Europe and the U.S. alike.

It will be similar in other areas where Chinese decide to invest time and money to produce quality.


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## spectre (May 12, 2007)

I think true class comes from being understated in both dress and such items as cars.
Expensive cars demonstrate to people you are either rich or have a large loan - but they are also vulgar and ostentatious. Driving a Ferrari which can't get out of first gear around a large city is ridiculous as is driving a Bentley which needs three parking places - not to mention the environmental issues.
As far as this being a clothing forum - so what if other things are discussed, certainly they relate to the general OP's proposition and are ideal examples used to put forward arguments for one side or the other.


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## arenn (Dec 29, 2003)

You might find the following document of interest:

https://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/04/musareport.htm

The United States has some fairly strict laws on this sort of thing.


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## arenn (Dec 29, 2003)

Ask yourself this. Why would a company move production offshore? Companies do this for two reasons:

1. To manufacture products closer to the end consumer, for example, by building a European factory to serve Europe and an American factory to serve America

2. To save money.

Clearly, going to low cost countries is almost always point #2. And if it is, then ask yourself: if someone is motivated to save money, do you think that the labor rate is the only place they are looking to save? I doubt it.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Luxury manufacturers should not be about saving money, otherwise they stand to be guilty of selling the famous invisible suit, the ultimate hoax where absolutely nothing, created at no cost, was sold as luxury product.

When customers discover some company is actually manufacturing in China cheaply, and then selling the product as if it is made in Italy at full European cost, they are right to be upset.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

^ True. Although I have no problem with transferring operations to cheaper locations for economical reasons, manufacturers should at least be man enough to disclose such information to buyers.

In a somewhat inverse issue, I recall the issue with the term "Glashutte" with regards to German watches. The brand Muhle was sued by another watchmaker, Nomos I believe, over the term Glashutte because Muhle didn't meet the standards in which a brand can use the name in their products. But Muhle produces robust and well-made watches that could, imho, stand on its own without "Glashutte" on its watch face. But the legal cost proved too much and now the brand is in some financial constraints because of this.


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## gangsta_lean (Oct 12, 2005)

*japan?*

how did a discussion of chinese-made products drag japan into it?

re: japan...

accuphase (and japanese market luxman), sony's CDP-XA7ES (the BEST cd player ever made; performance at the absolute theoretical limits of red book standard).

also grand seikos surpass rolexes in every regard save maybe hype.

and sean connery drove a toyota 2000GT in "you only live twice."


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Bogdanoff said:


> When customers discover some company is actually manufacturing in China cheaply, and then selling the product as if it is made in Italy at full European cost, they are right to be upset.


I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. My wife stopped buying Coach handbags because she came to discover that most of them were made in China, but still priced at well over $400. Her unscientific research at Nordstrom found the bulk of the $400 to $800 handbags made in the third world. Fortunately for me, she no longer buys 6 or 7 Coach bags per year. Unfortunately for me, she now buys 3 or 4 Marc Jacobs and Ferragamo bags per year.

I might even consider buying clothing made in China but if and only if the quality is impeccable and the price I pay reflects the vastly lower cost structure of the Chinese labor market. If the savings go entirely towards inflating the margins of the maker, then I am not interested.


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## Blackie (Jul 21, 2007)

And those who continue to produce in the US or Europe will use this in their advertising. I just recieved my test shirt from Alexander Boyd and it has MADE IN ENGLAND all over the label in bold.

Blackie.


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## arnach (Feb 3, 2007)

silverporsche said:


> Is Oxxford made in the United States ? I thought Chicago was an American city. An English engineer told me years ago that the difference between a Japanese car and an European car was character. Each European car British , Italian , German , French , etc,. has a different character. The Japanese build excellent cars but they lack character. They are all very much the same.


Utter BS straight from the car magazines. "They are all very much the same?" How many have you driven?

An ITR is the same as a RSX?

An NSX feels the same as a Legend?

A GT-R feels the same as a Camry?

If you define character by reliability, then sure, the Europeans build character by frequently having to walk home.



silverporsche said:


> S series Mercedes , 7 series BMW , Rolls Royce , Bentley , Porsche , Aston Martin etc.
> I don't think any of the cars listed above is made in the far east. Nor do I think Brioni , John Lobb , Kiton , Oxxford , Attolini , Borrelli etc. , is manufactured in the far east.
> 
> In electronic equipment there is also a high end that matches the clothing discussed here on Ask Andy , Audio Research , Mark Levinson , McIntosh,
> ...


You're a relentless brand whore.

BMW (unreliable), Mercedes (very unreliable), Bentley (was overpriced crap, now overpriced VW), Porsche (ok), Aston Martin (ok).

I'll take an Acura NSX. Sure, they don't make it anymore, but they made it to prove that they could. It could out handle a Ferrari and be driven all year long. Then they proved they could out handle a Ferrari for 20K, witness the ITR. And so on.

Your audio analogy is even worse:

Audio Research - overpriced crap. Sounds terrible. 
Mark Levinson - overpriced crap. Last good one was the ML2. The 33s have 8+ stages. AC Regeneration? Blah. 
McIntosh is a shadow of what it used to be and turns out solid state amps with output transformers. Whoopty-fing-do.

But on the Japanese side, you're forgetting:

Koetsu
Audio Note Japan
the finest iron in tube-land (ISO Tango/Tamura)
and so on..



gangsta_lean said:


> sony's CDP-XA7ES (the BEST cd player ever made; performance at the absolute theoretical limits of red book standard).


That's a laughable statement. The XA7ES wasn't even their best effort, and that's just Sony.


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## nikwik (Oct 29, 2005)

Please either start a new thread or stick to the original subject. The original question was (and is still) if you still would buy for example shoes from Tricker´s if you knew that they were (wholly or partly) made in China... 

BTW the whole discussion reminds me of what a member of a Gentleman´s Club in London once said about his club:

"This is a club for people who still prefers a silver salt shaker that doesn´t work before a plastic one that does..."


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## Bracemaker (May 11, 2005)

nikwik said:


> Please either start a new thread or stick to the original subject. The original question was (and is still) if you still would buy for example shoes from Tricker´s if you knew that they were (wholly or partly) made in China...
> 
> BTW the whole discussion reminds me of what a member of a Gentleman´s Club in London once said about his club:
> 
> "This is a club for people who still prefers a silver salt shaker that doesn´t work before a plastic one that does..."


Good point - and I love the quote.
It is all about perceived value, and many companies have made the mistake of ignoring this and moving their production to somewhere with cheaper labour costs with the effect of initially increasing their profit margins. A case in point would be the Dr Martens boot manufacturers, who gave up in it's entirety their UK based production and moved it to China. The bulk of their sales were previously exported from the UK, but as their customers cottoned on to what they had done they voted with their wallets and stopped buying.
The business has declined accordingly.


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## Avers (Feb 28, 2006)

It's OK for clothes to be made in China, as long as company is honest about the country of origin.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England -oops China*

The issue as I see it is made in China (bad) It was not to long ago that made in Japan was bad and later South Korea. Today there is Toyota and Samsong both companies build outstanding quality products . 
Both countries build what is called high quality values , neither the Japanese nor the South Koreans build items that are considered the very best. That is still left to the Europeans and to a lesser degree Americans.

Tradition , image are items not built by either the Chinese , Japanese , or South Koreans. While the NSX Acura is an outstanding Sports car it does not have the history or tradition of Jaguar, Aston Martin , Porsche and certainly Ferrari.
Is it more reliable ? yes ? well engineered most certainly. Does it have the same image factor ? NO!

This tread raised the same issues that would have been asked 40 years ago about Japanese products and later South Korean products.
Most of the members of Ask Andy appear to have an interest in high end quality clothing.
Most of those clothing or made in western Europe. Let's face it do we really need a pair of shoes that cost $ 800.00 ? or a shirt listed at $500.00 ?
Many here would say yes. No matter how well made the shirt is if it is made in any place other than Western Europe we "gasp" .

Are we any different than the man that pays $12,000 for a Rolex Daytona chronograph when a Casio for $40.00 tells the same time with accuracy
Does not a $70,000 Porsche make perfect sense as a $5000 Kiton suit ?
That's status , self-aggrandisment and image.
It's not for everyone . if one feels it's a waste than the items named above is not for them !


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## bulla (May 26, 2006)

American goods are at the bottom of the ladder, except the toothbrush. Look at the horrendous quality and bulkness of thomasville furniture. The cheap interiors of a corvette. Look at the ugly buildings propping up in downtown Chicago. America the Ugly, maker of cheap quality products. Have you ever seen chinese clothes? who gave the world-Silk? Have you heard of the silk route? Chinese pottery, furniture etc. China is thousands of years old. You were born yesterday. America has no quality. Cars? who cares about CARS-- pollution causing agents. The evils of yesterday. Have some respect for other cultures. What do you know about Korean culture? Have you seen their intricate geometry patterns on clothing? I have to say the english attire is plain boring. It makes you look GAY.

Rolex DAYTONA's movement was made by Zenith. You are a Name brand thumper.
Now the americans are going to teach the world TRADITION? HAHAHAHAHA


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

bulla said:


> American goods are at the bottom of the ladder, except the toothbrush. Look at the horrendous quality and bulkness of thomasville furniture. The cheap interiors of a corvette. Look at the ugly buildings propping up in downtown Chicago. America the Ugly, maker of cheap quality products. Have you ever seen chinese clothes? who gave the world-Silk? Have you heard of the silk route? Chinese pottery, furniture etc. China is thousands of years old. You were born yesterday. America has no quality. Cars? who cares about CARS-- pollution causing agents. The evils of yesterday. Have some respect for other cultures. What do you know about Korean culture? Have you seen their intricate geometry patterns on clothing? I have to say the english attire is plain boring. It makes you look GAY.
> 
> Rolex DAYTONA's movement was made by Zenith. You are a Name brand thumper.
> Now the americans are going to teach the world TRADITION? HAHAHAHAHA


If this thread was straying off the original topic, the above just careened it off the cliff.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

acidicboy said:


> If this thread was straying off the original topic, the above just careened it off the cliff.


This thread is headed on a one way track to the Interchange. How it has remained here so long is a deep mystery to me.


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## ChriO (Feb 23, 2006)

nikwik said:


> [...]The original question was (and is still) if you still would buy for example shoes from Tricker´s if you knew that they were (wholly or partly) made in China... [...]


Allow me to quote myself from an earlier thread about the Grenson's Rose Collection:



ChriO said:


> I don't own a Grenson of the Rose collection, but two pairs of the Footmaster line, predecessor of the Rose collection. [...] All in all I am not unhappy with the purchase.
> 
> I don't think that I will buy another Grenson's though. Grenson moved the production (or at least a big part of it) of the cheaper Rushden Range out of England - to India [...]. I am not enamoured by this.
> When it comes to English brands I prefer to give my business to English shoemakers who still produce all of their shoes in England.[...]


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## Trommel (Sep 27, 2006)

arnach said:


> A GT-R feels the same as a Camry?


Amongst other things, I have a GT-R; it has character and a 50-year racing pedigree to shame a 911. Japan has every bit as much tradition, passion, character and skill as any Western country you care to name.

I digress - it should come as no surprise that production moves to the Far East. Business is about money, and in China (for example) you get more product for less money.

It's not about rocket science, it's about profit.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

gangsta_lean said:


> also grand seikos surpass rolexes in every regard save maybe hype.


Are they certified chronometers?


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## Trommel (Sep 27, 2006)

Albert said:


> Are they certified chronometers?


Some at least were certified as such by the Japanese equivalent of COSC, for what it's worth.

If you want accuracy, but quartz.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

Trommel said:


> Business is about money, and in China (for example) you get more product for less money.
> 
> It's not about rocket science, it's about profit.


Yeah, well, given all the product recalls on Chinese products in the U.S. ranging from defective tires, tainted seafood, lead paint encrusted toys, lethal pet food (and poinsoned grain products), and posioned tooth paste (just to mention a few examples) I'm tending to question that one, in fact, gets "more product" for the money - granted we're only talking clothing here so, my conclusion is not so dire if one gets a crappy suit - but China seems to make not just shoddy products, but dangerous products as well.


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## adrian07 (Aug 3, 2007)

arenn said:


> 2. To save money.
> 
> Clearly, going to low cost countries is almost always point #2. And if it is, then ask yourself: if someone is motivated to save money, do you think that the labor rate is the only place they are looking to save? I doubt it.


Can't remember the last time I heard anything half as wise and spot on as this statement.:thumbs-up:


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## T4phage (Nov 12, 2003)

arnach said:


> That's a laughable statement. The XA7ES wasn't even their best effort, and that's just Sony.


Teac Esoteric.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

T4phage said:


> Teac Esoteric.


I still have a Nakamichi. Unbelievable.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England -oops*

Why is it so important that an item be made in England rather than China or India ? The Chinese and Indians most certainly have the ability to build excellent products if given directions.
Why is it that here on Ask Andy many of the forum's members are so concerned by where an item is manufactured ?
Only 40 years ago there was that same concern with items made in Japan. That attitude has changed somewhat over the last 30 years but not much.

I still don't think most people looking to spend over $80,000 for a car would buy one made in Japan no matter how well it's made. The Acura NSX proved that. Would many of us spend $10,000 for a watch made in Japan ?
Would we as western consumers spend $5000 for a Japanese suit ? or $500.00 for a Japanese shirt ? Both items off the rack ?
But we will spend those amounts for items made in England ? why ?

Is it made better because it's manufactured in England ? There are those that would spend $ 140,000 for a car built in Germany that may not be as well made as one built in Japan , why ? or $200,000 for a car built in England
that may not be better built than the one in Japan , why ?
Am I wrong when I think it's image. not quality .?
Does a Lexus 400 have the same image as a Mercedes 500 ? is the Lexus equal in quality ? the difference in price is thousands !
I will admit I buy for image , plus quality sometimes. I have never owned a Japanese car , knowing they are excellent cars , but I have owned German and British cars knowing that they may not be built as well. IMAGE !
clothing is no different IMAGE !


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Why is it so important that an item be made in England rather than China or India ? The Chinese and Indians most certainly have the ability to build excellent products if given directions.


silverporsche,

I have got a Hong Kong tailor who does good work at a reasonable price. But it certainly isn't Kiton quality or A&S bespoke. Horses for courses.

The problem is that, as mentioned in the original post, some manufacturer is _pretending_ that it's British made when in fact it isn't. (of course the manufacturer is doing this in order to achieve a premium price)

I think the deception is the problem here. Conversely, Japanese gentlemen e.g. might be unhappy with Kimonos cheaply manufactured in Indonesia but sold under a "Made in Japan" label.

Cheers,
A.


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## LoveFashion (Jun 28, 2007)

Albert said:


> silverporsche,
> 
> I have got a Hong Kong tailor who does good work at a reasonable price. But it certainly isn't Kiton quality or A&S bespoke. Horses for courses.
> 
> ...


*The influence of global markets*

Nowadays, many products are manufactured in more than one country and marketed under a single brand name. For example, IBM, Sony or Coca-Cola, BMW, they are well-respected companies and customers are not likely to care about where its products are made. The country of origin effort is less important in such circumstances. If it is not a well-known brand name, customers are more likely to take an interest in where the product was made.

China was becoming one of the fastest growing economy in the world from 2000 to 2006. According to the theory of Saeed (1994, p579-650), the level of economic development is one of the major Influencing factors in the Country of Origin effect. Therefore, there is evidence that made-in-China products are developing a more positive image. More people are willing to buy Chinese products.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England-oops China*

LoveFashion do you really believe that BMW could charge as much for their cars if the "Made in Germany" was not on the sticker ? Would a consumer pay $130,000 for any "Made in Japan" car or" Made in America" car ? the top of the line BMW cost $130,000.
Exclusivity is what the BMW buyer is looking for. A consumer that pays extra for a Kiton suit is looking for the same, to own what is available only to the few. Not all but most.

it is much easier to fool a consumer who is buying a Kiton suit or Turnbull and Astor shirt than one who is buying a BMW. Check out ebay.
Deception is the problem. Why than is there a market for imitation watches such as Cartier and Rolex?

A watch made in Japan or China by Rolex could have the same quality and workmanship as one made in Switzerland , but who would buy it ? could they sell that "made in China " Rolex for $6000.00? or that Kiton suit for $5000,00
if it was "made in China " I think we all know the answer.

Consumers do care where an item is made and will pay the differences. 
Not all but many , especially those who want access to what is available to only a few.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

LoveFashion said:


> As long as the quality does not go down and the factory has a good welfare policy for workers, there is no porblem to buy goods from China.


But both conditions are rarely satisfied. Quality does always go down. I cannot think of a single clothing maufacturer I have bought from long term who after going to China ( all of them!) maintained quality - always always the fit and the quality of dye, button holes etc etc went to pot. Also independant reporters continually come out with reports of the awful conditions of the factories in the Far East - here in Europe there has even been a big expose of the so called " Ethical Trading Agreement" - apparently it isn't worth the paper it is written on.

It seems to me therefore that people are being exploited to give us cheap goods and make a few people very rich. That is not good ethics and if you believe the Bible, something that makes God angry.

Also we won't be able to have high wages and cheap goods for ever - if all the production is done in the Far East where is our wealth generation going to come from - OK in the UK it is the Finance Sector and the Service Sector - but the latter pays low wages and the former could be taken away from us give a change in world conditions - both very flimsy bases for building an economy on!


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

The problem isn't with Asia. People wear clothes in Asia, and have done so for quite some time now. :icon_smile_big: There are many venerable tailoring traditions to be found. 

The problem is with the companies doing the outsourcing, and the criteria that some choose when selecting people and places to produce their goods. Quality, durability, and tradition take a back seat to volume, expense, and legal flexibility.

If you buy from companies that stick to their principles, it doesn't matter where the stuff is made.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

katon said:


> The problem isn't with Asia. People wear clothes in Asia, and have done so for quite some time now. :icon_smile_big: There are many venerable tailoring traditions to be found.
> 
> The problem is with the companies doing the outsourcing, and the criteria that some choose when selecting people and places to produce their goods. Quality, durability, and tradition take a back seat to volume, expense, and legal flexibility.
> 
> If you buy from companies that stick to their principles, it doesn't matter where the stuff is made.


It is certainly true that the problem isn't with Asia per se. Asia has been making high quality material and clothing for thousands of years. However the problem lies with get rich quick company owners or directors/shareholders ( who are the owners) in the West and unscrupulous get rich quick business men and (women?) in Asia who own the clothing factories western companies use.

It is also certainly true that there is only one reason western companies go to Asia and it is not for improved quality! They could find excellent quality there but that is not why they go! I need not go on!

And who says we want cheap clothes? We were told we want cheap clothes by the first retailers to source in Asia - we all happily bought quality and less of it until the late 1980s - then we were shown cheap fashion goods and enough people went for it so that other companies had to go down the same route to stay in business. Now we all ( well not I and I hope all of us here) think that the prices we paid 20 years ago are outrageous - I mean NOT rounded up to account for inflation! For example a pair of cords in Marks and Spencer ( was good quality once) cost £35 twenty years ago. They still cost £35 ( no where near as good quality) and people won't buy them because they can get them cheaper at H&M or Primark!

Anyway this thread was really about semi deceit - IMO - ie goods that purport to be made in Europe or the USA but are in fact largely made elsewhere - maybe complying with the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Bracemaker said:


> Good point - and I love the quote.
> It is all about perceived value, and many companies have made the mistake of ignoring this and moving their production to somewhere with cheaper labour costs with the effect of initially increasing their profit margins. A case in point would be the Dr Martens boot manufacturers, who gave up in it's entirety their UK based production and moved it to China. The bulk of their sales were previously exported from the UK, but as their customers cottoned on to what they had done they voted with their wallets and stopped buying.
> The business has declined accordingly.


If that is true, and I hope it is, it serves them right. The move of Dr Martens from the UK was cynical and therefore unnecessary. There is far more to a business decision than cutting costs and this company proves it. Sure they cut cost - full points on that one - and the board room said "Amen" - an imagined scenario - " until one day someone on the board dared to ask " what about the customers?" - OMG they all replied " we hadn't thought of them!!"

Seriously a friend of mine is reading a new book critiquing new managment theory ( can't remember the name) and it says that in the new corporate world customers come way down the list of priorites. Priorities are thus:

1. Shareholders
2. Company Directors
3 Senior staff
4. Work force and customers - about same level.

This holds true in my experience as a customer - so many companies say "we are making changes to improve customer service" - which is corporate speak for " we are cutting costs and in order to do so we are cutting staff - you will only be able to speak to a machine therefore or be put on hold for hours - or you will come into our shop and the only staff we have will be on the tills taking your money - " Who do they think they are kidding?

The absolutely crazy thing is that the old view of business men that customers are essential to the business and customer satisfaction comes first - is blindingly obviously the only right point of view!! Thank God one still comes across this outdated approach when dealing with Edward Green or Church's and I am sure most other Northampton(shire) shoe makers too! Maybe that's one reason they are selling their products so well.

And on this point - I read an article recently ( senior moment - can't remember where - Esquire or some such ) and it said the upturn in demand for Northampton shoes was directly due to men who used to buy mid market shoes from teh high street. Such men now are coming to the higher end of the shoe market because the once mid market shoes makers ( like Clarks) have now gone to China and quality has plumetted - it has - I was one of these men - I haven't bought Clarks in years because they are nothing compared to how they used to be - coinciding with the move of production away from the UK and am now a devoted customer of Church's EG and C&J - yes they cost much more but it is worth it - and as I say apparently I am part of a big trend.


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## smlaz (May 13, 2005)

*Harumph*

Well. I just stumbled onto this rather stimulating thread. Let's see -
History/Legacy/story - if I'm buying a new car/watch/suit, what on earth does it matter, but for the marketing, if it's grandparent/cousin etc. won the Cross Country of Calais 30 years ago or the Chronometer Competition of Neuchatel in 1910? What matters is the here and now, and if I were to buy a car without a test drive and research I would rightly be called a slave to Madison Avenue. OK, so it would matter to me if the same model Omega I'm looking at won a competition last year.

If I bought a Savile Row suit just because Prince Charles wore the make, and not because I like the design or checked the make out on AAAC, I daresay I would be doing myself a disservice. Not that the maker would be bad or disreputable (certainly not with a Royal Marque), but perhaps not right for me, or not the value that I'd want. What might work for our dear Prince of Wales might not work for dear old me.

Now, someone above made a comment about Seiko vs. Rolex. What that someone showed us was that he's either not all too knowledgeable about watches or just plain xenophobic. Grand Seiko, for at least 40 years, has been on a par with at least Rolex, if not the more touted marques in Swiss Watchdom. No, it's not the Seiko you get at Macy's; as a matter of fact Grand Seiko is only available in Asia. One may be biased for sentimental reasons, but let's not impugn the quality and reputation of a maker because of one's lack of knowledge of the maker and/or the market.

Cheers,


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## gangsta_lean (Oct 12, 2005)

*How is that laughable?*

That's a laughable statement. The XA7ES wasn't even their best effort, and that's just Sony.[/QUOTE]

Sony was the co-inventor of the compact disc. They have a nearly peerless r & d department. On an empirical basis, the 7ES will outperform any cd player put up against it [just look at the specs from anyone who ever tested one -- and no Stereophile does not count ;-) and compare that to red book] Not to mention its bulletproof build quality.

Calling something "crap" does not necessary make it so, esp. without backing it up with a rational explanation. It is just your opinion. At best it's merely dismissive and at worst it's inflammatory and trollish. But I don't know you so I will assume you are just passionate about what you like. So from the looks of it, you are into tube equipment and presumably vinyl. That's cool, but just chill a little...you don't need to be so militant about what you like.


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## gangsta_lean (Oct 12, 2005)

*That's hype as well...*



Albert said:


> Are they certified chronometers?


Any watch can function within the WIDE parameters of chronometer certification without being certified. Indeed a vast majority of Swiss watches are not certified. Who has the most watches certified? Rolex. It's marketing. Breitling and Omega have chronometers too. Any half way decent house can put a stock ETA ebauche together well enough to be called a chronometer. So what?


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## bob-k (Oct 9, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> What's the point of being successful if one does not show it off in clothing , a fine home , cars , boats etc.


I think many of us here have a different philosophy.


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## LoveFashion (Jun 28, 2007)

bob-k said:


> I think many of us here have a different philosophy.


I agree with you, bob-k.


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## silverporsche (Nov 3, 2005)

*Made in England-oops China*

These threats are very interesting. I once read in Car and Driver a quote.
" It is not the Mercedes that many of us dislike , it's the person driving the Mercedes we dislike " That quote came about at the end of a road test for the Mercedes 600SEL. Big powerful and expensive.

Clothing is no different, history tells us that before the industrial revolution 
the working class dressed very poorly , because of changes in how we made clothing , the working class was able to dress much better.
But than how does our culture separate the working class from the upper classes ? For the first time in history the lower classes was dressing better and in some cases there was little difference in dress.

The differences had to do with providing clothing and other items the working class could not afford , again separating the upper classes from the lower classes. The Mercedes 600SEL and a Brioni suit are examples.
Today with the computer , lower transportation cost and the global market , one can buy a cashmere scarf for less than $50,00 made in China ! "Ye gasp"
Everyone knows only the upper classes can afford cashmere !
But than where is it made ? "China" , heavens no mine is made in "England"

Now some wolfshead has decided to make clothing in China and pass it off as being made in England , terrible , burn him in oil !
Oh there is marketing can you imagine a Mercedes 600SEL not being marketed to the upper classes. Where would I find a Kiton suit add ? Magazines not marketed to the lower classes.

There is very little difference between a 2008 Jaguar XJR and a Dodge 300 Hemi that we can actually use on the road , who can use 400-horsepower supercharged power ? isn't 340 horsepower enough ? not if you are looking for prestige and that market does exist.
Is it any different when one buys a Brioni suit ?
At one time it was who made it , now it is where is it made . Isn't it tiring trying to stay ahead of the lower classes ?


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

silverporsche said:


> Now some wolfshead has decided to make clothing in China and pass it off as being made in England , terrible , burn him in oil !
> Oh there is marketing can you imagine a Mercedes 600SEL not being marketed to the upper classes. Where would I find a Kiton suit add ? Magazines not marketed to the lower classes.
> 
> (...)
> ...


Silverporsche,

I must admit that I am just looking for a timeless, classic look and for relatively long-lasting quality. If the "lower classes" were dressing in hand-made suits and shoes (and, to be candid, most people in Europe would technically be able to afford that) I would be most happy and not change anything about my very own outfit itself. And, moreover, I certainly would not consider myself "upper class".

I just think it's unfair to pass on goods as Engish if they aren't. And, for the reasons pointed out above, I would assume that there is a consequent step-down in quality if done so.

Cheers,
A.


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## ccffm1 (Jul 31, 2005)

silverporsche said:


> LoveFashion do you really believe that BMW could charge as much for their cars if the "Made in Germany" was not on the sticker ? Would a consumer pay $130,000 for any "Made in Japan" car or" Made in America" car ? the top of the line BMW cost $130,000.


I don´t know if it has been said before, as I have only speed-read, but quite a lot of Mercedes-Benz´ and BMW´s models are made in the USA. Still, they seem to sell very well.


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## meister (Oct 29, 2005)

GBR said:


> Look at it very simply. Everyone in the west wants to:
> 
> Be paid at high wages
> Buy at low prices
> ...


Yes I hear you... or is is really that simple? - why are they charging the same Made in England /Euro/UA etc prices for goods that are made in developed countries for a fraction of the cost and of inferior product quality? Look Down Under at shirts etc made by Country Road etc. The Australian made residual stuff (shirts, suits, whatever) is still vastly superior to the Asian made stuff yet they charge the same price.

IMHO it's just a new way of profiteering and has got nothing to do with competition but all to do with volume and the profit gouging and job losses as the whole of the world's industry including the deluxe stuff is transferred off shore.

Is there any reason why this should happen? Income in Australia under the Liberal Government in the last 10 years has doubled and prices have fallen for a lot of basic stuff because of the cheap manafacturing. But why does the deluxe stuff have to be compromised? Answer? Greed.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

meister said:


> Look Down Under at shirts etc made by Country Road etc. The Australian made residual stuff (shirts, suits, whatever) is still vastly superior to the Asian made stuff yet they charge the same price.
> 
> IMHO it's just a new way of profiteering and has got nothing to do with competition but all to do with volume and the profit gouging and job losses as the whole of the world's industry including the deluxe stuff is transferred off shore....But why does the deluxe stuff have to be compromised? Answer? Greed.


I agree with you entirely about the profit gouging and greed.

Unfortunately 'Country Road Australia' stuff is all made off shore now. I don't know where you shop but I struggle to find anything OTR still made here.

My tailor tells me that 30 years ago the department stores were full of locally made suits with fully canvassed coats with workmanship better than any Brioni coat he has seen. What's more there were several local mills which made beautiful clothes out of the finest Australian wool.

Imagine that: a suit as fine as a Brion or Kiton - made in Australia through and through, from the first fibre right down to the last stitch.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Sator said:


> I agree with you entirely about the profit gouging and greed.
> 
> Unfortunately 'Country Road Australia' stuff is all made off shore now. I don't know where you shop but I struggle to find anything OTR still made here.
> 
> ...


That is not hard to imagine. You can tell by the dress sense of the many Australian visitors we have in London that they come from a land with a strong sartorial tradition.:icon_smile:

*W_B*


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## adrian07 (Aug 3, 2007)

I'm not sure if this is as important but I've just discovered that my beloved Tintin albums are no more printed in Belgium as they used to be. Now they are printed in spain  

  
:icon_smile_wink:


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## nikwik (Oct 29, 2005)

*You can´t trust anyone these days...*

...and I have a strong suspicion that the Financial Times I get every Sunday is indeed printed in... Sweden. Blasphemy!


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

whistle_blower71 said:


> That is not hard to imagine. You can tell by the dress sense of the many Australian visitors we have in London that they come from a land with a strong sartorial tradition.:icon_smile:
> 
> *W_B*


Yes, I know. But during the Ashes series, when Sydney filled up with British tourists they were hardly any better dressed. I guess what do you expect from a nation which strives to look like Beckham 

But there was a time when Australians, English, Americans all dressed properly. And every man kept a Sunday best suit in his wardrobe. This was taken in Sydney in the 1920s:


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

See post #25 on this thread:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=610784#post610784

For a clarification from Angus Cundey (Chairman of Henry Poole & Co).


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## rdhancock (Nov 22, 2004)

*For the record, James Bond drove the hell out of a Toyota*

in You Only Live Twice. It was a great looking and great driving car, the 2000GT, introduced at the '65 Toyota auto show. And I know we're trying to stay away from cars, but people pay well past $130,000 for lots of American made cars, and American made cars that are much closer to the bespoke suits we normally talk about here than a BMW or Mercedes are. I'm talking Shelby Supercars, Saleen, etc. It should be interesting to see if the Ultimate Aero can top the Veyron before the end of the year.


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## Asterix (Jun 7, 2005)

silverporsche said:


> Ask Andy is a forum that discusses men's clothing. Some of the clothing discussed here is very expensive. Is a Kiton suit a good value ? to some it is overpriced. Why would one pay $500.00 for a Borrelli shirt ? or $1000.00
> for a Burberry raincoat ? there are shirts and raincoats that are less expensive and may be a better value.
> Certainly Japanese products are aimed at a different market than most high end European and American goods.
> Would one really compare a Bentley to a Lexus ? or a Rolex to a Seiko.
> ...


I laud your patriotism but these 2 words don't go well together...... *America* and *Premium Quality* when talking about cars, electronics and clothing. :icon_smile_big:


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## tudor (Jul 13, 2007)

Just as a fact: many car companies (including Mercedes and BMW) make their dashboard components (like the steering wheel, glove compartment door, etc.) in Romania. It's fair to assume that if they don't make these "visible" parts in Germany, other "hidden" parts are also made abroad. For instance Mercedes buys their braking system components from specialized makers.

In the end I guess everyone should be happy if the purchased product meets their demands, and worry less about the labels since they are so misleading.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

And now Michelin Guide has come out in Japan ... Tokyo has more stars than Paris ... by more than two times. 

If Japan didn't know quality -- and I'm not convinced of that -- it does nowadays ... and I'm not speaking only of food.


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## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

I missed this thread the first time around, but I find it funny that the post that started the whole thing is based on a misconception/misrepresentation:



> That is, even the sacred and beloved English Northampton shoe industry is not free of this "Made in England - oh sorry that should say India disception.
> 
> Loake, Barker, Grenson, and so I was told all the "lower end" English shoemakers now have the majority ( don't know about their most expensive ranges) of their shoes made in India and are looking at China!
> 
> ...


This is hardly earth shaking news. Shoe uppers are basically a _component_ of the shoe - material if you will. In the shoe business the 'making' of a shoe *is* the part the op is treating as an afterthought. That is the building of the shoe starting with the stretching of the upper over the last, then the welting process which attaches the upper, insole and welt together, and then the attaching of the sole and heel. And all the other smaller steps involved. According to op this making process is being done in Northampton, so there is not much of an issue here. The shoes are still legitimately made in England, even if they have some components sourced elsewhere. Much ado about next to nothing


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

RSS said:


> And now Michelin Guide has come out in Japan ... Tokyo has more stars than Paris ... by more than two times.


Well, Japan does have the Iron Chefs...


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*Please Name Two*



Bonhamesque said:


> ...In some cases you can even see an increase in quality with a move to China...


 I cannot resist asking this question: can you give us any examples of cases where quality was found to improve when the manufacturing was moved to PRC?


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

gnatty8 said:


> I might even consider buying clothing made in China but if and only if the quality is impeccable and the price I pay reflects the vastly lower cost structure of the Chinese labor market. If the savings go entirely towards inflating the margins of the maker, then I am not interested.


I think this quote hits the nail right on the head and could not have been articulated better. LEt the consumer decide-with the right disclouse. Buying a luxuary item priced on the premise it is made by artisans, but actually mass produced in china, is in my opinion fraud. Simple as that.

Buying a well made product that happens to be produced in china: let the consumer weight the labor (loss of USA/European jobs), moral, enviornemtal and human rights issues himself.

Personally, i was dissapointed to find out the the $350 patagonia jacket i wanted was made in China. Forgetting the other stuff, this price certainly does not reflect the country of origin. PAtagoina sent a very nice letter explaining why they used china. The gist was: lets help folks in a commerical weigh. Im not convinced but at least they had the stones to address the issue.

My personal two cents on this subject is that this thread has hit a nerve becuase it may really be a new realization that the "so called lux items made in china" is a wake up that in the last decade the world has seen a seismic changed, and maybe not for the better. Stated otherwise, i hope this thresd is an early harbinger that the general public will soon realize, that in the short term, maybe the cheap off shore production of goods may have actually hidden the ulitmate costs of all the super mergers, I- banking, hedge fund, Super money BS: namely there may be no jobs left for the bulk of the usa and or euro populace.

Go ahead, flame away but in my opinion, i hope that the first step to averting a bleak economic future is that there are real and tough costs to the new off shore manufacturing.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

arnach said:


> Your audio analogy is even worse:
> 
> Audio Research - overpriced crap. Sounds terrible.
> Mark Levinson - overpriced crap. Last good one was the ML2. The 33s have 8+ stages. AC Regeneration? Blah.
> ...


Right on. Dopnt forget MActone, yammamoto, shindo and airtight

Im also willing to bet that that cdp hes talking about was not fully made in japan


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Chinese Dim Sum is better than the English version.


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## kolecho (Nov 15, 2004)

silverporsche said:


> Are we discussing quality or quanty ? the finest made goods are made in Europe and America, Watches , cars , clothing , electronics , etc.
> Are there any Japanese cars that match Porsche , Mercedes S series , BMW
> 7 series , what about Ferrari , Rolls Royce , Bentley and even Aston Martin ?
> Watches range from Rolex , Audemars Pigeut , Piaget , Patek Phillipe Breguet.
> ...


You should get out of your backyard more often.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

Rossini said:


> Chinese Dim Sum is better than the English version.


There's dimsum in England?


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Of course. Don't they have it where you are?


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Orsini said:


> I cannot resist asking this question: can you give us any examples of cases where quality was found to improve when the manufacturing was moved to PRC?


Blimey, feels like a long time ago that I wrote that.
I was referring to tailoring really. There are tailors in China who have been trained in constructing suits by Savile Row tailors and after several years the London tailors found that the Chinese product was actually superior in some ways to some S Row bespoke suits.

Not really a case of a company moving a factory/workroom to China but you get the point.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*That's One*




Rossini said:


> Chinese Dim Sum is better than the English version.


I never had dim sum in England so I guess I will have to defer to your judgment: that counts as one.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*Saving Worth Risk?*

Here is my point: 

The recent trend of moving manufacturing processes from one place to another with little regard for quality has provided customers with the following opportunities: 

Feed their animals pet food intentionally contaminated with industrial by-products not meant to be eaten by vertebrates: 

Brush their teeth with poison toothpaste: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/05/toothpaste02.html 

Buy their children toys containing toxic levels of lead: https://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=130a0c4a-0fb4-428f-9a8e-7ac659fb4aca&k=90954 

Ride on tires that fail because the manufacturer unilaterally decided to remove the gum strip: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/business/worldbusiness/26tire.html
You can cut costs by substituting shoddy for quality but the customer may feel a significant negative impact. 

I just do not think that the savings is worth the risk.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Orsini said:


> Here is my point:
> 
> The recent trend of moving manufacturing processes from one place to another with little regard for quality has provided customers with the following opportunities:
> 
> Eat turkey that have been fed lead pellets:


That one's a satirical article not a real story...


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

gnatty8 said:


> I might even consider buying clothing made in China but if and only if the quality is impeccable and the price I pay reflects the vastly lower cost structure of the Chinese labor market. If the savings go entirely towards inflating the margins of the maker, then I am not interested.


You as an individual buyer wouldn't save that much. New Balance has Chinese made shoes and US made shoes. Their US made shoes (when you factor in things like cheaper shipping, not needing as large an inventory to keep up with the on-demand inventory stores have in the modern world, and greater efficiency) only cost something like $4.25 more to make than the chinese made shoes (I can't remember the exact amount, it's $4.something, it's in one of my econ books back home). That doesn't mean anything to an individual shopper, but it does add up to the corporation when they're selling thousands of shoes.


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

Orsini said:


> Here is my point:
> 
> The recent trend of moving manufacturing processes from one place to another with little regard for quality has provided customers with the following opportunities:
> 
> ...


Well said. dont forget that the outsourcing of medicine production to the third world has massive economic, security and moral implications- so think of that when you buy a consumer product made in china-so there is more then one reason to be concerned about the loss of local and or artisanal usa/euro manufacturing.

Reprinted from the New YOrk times: 
*"Security concerns raised as China fills U.S. medicine chest"*
https://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_8947.cfm


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## KeithR (Sep 5, 2006)

I don't mind buying goods made in third world countries (e.g., The Phillipines), but I try very hard not to buy anything made in Red China. My reasons are based on China being a growing strategic threat, and their continued active repression of Christianity. For example, I won't decorate for Christmas by using ornaments and lights made in China.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

StephenRG said:


> That one's a satirical article not a real story...


A joke by some sorry comic named Andy Borowitz? Is my face red! 

The anthill I am going to stake him out on is going to be real enough!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

kbuzz said:


> Well said. dont forget that the outsourcing of medicine production to the third world has massive economic, security and moral implications- so think of that when you buy a consumer product made in china-so there is more then one reason to be concerned about the loss of local and or artisanal usa/euro manufacturing.
> 
> Reprinted from the New YOrk times:
> *"Security concerns raised as China fills U.S. medicine chest"*
> https://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_8947.cfm


We could put that in there in place of the gag story I had to take out.


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## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

Dolle Dolf said:


> I prefer not to buy goods from Asia. Partly because of that "soul" thing. I would rather continue to drive my old Alfa Romeo than buy a MX5. However, I feel that there will always be a top layer of comsumer articles that will be from the EC or the USA. Niche high priced items. For the discerning few, and unfortunately often out of reach for people on a relatively normal income. Now all give thanks to STP


I believe there are two distinct groups of buyers, one will be happy as long as the quality of an item remains and the other, whilst expecting quality for his money also has the concept of "soul/Tradition" call it what you like.
I read a quote from a book written by Jeremy Clarkson (top gear fame), I don't recall it well enough to quote verbatim but it related to how the "good things" (in this case cars but can be anything really) began with a persons dream to make something special and memorable, it began with a real person.So I imagine it was once with clothes where a real person made the decision he wanted to make the best item money could buy.
That whole concept is being lost now, companies don't instill product pride into their workers and (whilst trying hard not to sound like a racist *******) I don't believe some global companies especially China has the same concept of "traditionally well made" as do Europeans.
Things are not being made now because a person wanted to make it, they are being made by faceless companies that see a market niche they can fill and make a profit from.

My biggest irritation I find with RTE clothes now is that I can find the same faults in say a $150 shirt from a higher class menswear store as I would from a $30 shirt from Target, both are made in China or India. Sizing labels mean almost nothing anymore. I purchased two belts the other day both marked as the same size and almost 2 inches different in length. Why can one brand of shirt fit me as a "Medium" but in another brand I require a "Large". I mean at the very least you'd hope they would be consistent with size.

Mychael


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

I think with this size thing you have hit the nail on the head. Just a small but perfectly illustrative example. Marks and Spencer ( so we are not talking high end here!) used to make 90% of their clothes in the UK. When they did one could go into one of their stores pick up a pair of trousers or a shirt in ones own size and it would fit you when you got it home, 100% of the time. Due to "market pressure", M&S now make about 98% of their clothes in China or other Far Eastern countries. Now, you dare not just "pop in " and pick something up. You need to try on two or three items bearing the same size label to find one that fits! This was the first clue some ten years ago or so that clothes made in the Far East - at least ones that Western firms source- are not good quality. Other clues surfaced like dye quality being poor, shirt buttons and button holes being poor, and so on. As with the previous post, I find it most upsetting that one experiences the same problems with clothes costing two or three times M&S prices but that are also made in China.

Another High Street name , Next, began reducing their prices some years ago. I was suspicious, and noticed labels that the previous year had said " made in the UK" now said " made in Tunisia" or "made in China" etc. The fit totally changed with their trousers. Less material was used and the fit became poor. Now, lest anyone makes a joke about me putting on weight, I tried on a pair of trousers from Next that were British made and they still fitted brilliantly. 

Once again, I have found the same thing happen with better makes ( although Next used to be quite acceptable for men's tailoring). 

I find therefore the views that some have put forward that " all is well in the garden because clothes can be made just as well in China" to be a bit hollow. I am sure clothes can be well made in China or India, it is just that the ones for sale in our shops - whatever the price are not well made! Why? Because which ever clothing retailer we are talking about, from high end to low end who has switched sourcing to the Far East has only done it for one reason and one reason alone. To save money. 

Now when one contacts companies to find out why they have switched they say " we just cannot source what we need in the UK anymore! - As if they are just innocent victims of factories closing! " They are the cause!!

Dear friends, it is all about money! Once it was about pride in a product and yes of course the need to make a profit - nothing wrong with that! But now, it is all about money! 

I can think of one exception regarding quality. I have some non-iron shirts from Orvis and they are superb. They are the best non-iron shirts I have in my wardrobe and they do exactly "what it says on the tin!". All made in China where the best non-iron cloth is made - only of course because Western companies stopped sourcing most things from the US or Europe - many of these things are self-fulfilling of course.


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## brioni007 (Dec 3, 2007)

*Made In china*

One thing I can say for sure is that way too many products are made in China. My personal opinion is that the Chinese government is only concerned about exporting and controlling as much product as possible in the world markets. A lot of quality has suffered, I don't have to site some of the information about Chinese products that has flooded the media recently. I think before the world signs off on giving all their production and manufacturing to a developing economy that is blanketed in secrecy, the world should attempt to understand the philosophy of the culture. So the question is what will the world sacrifice for cheaper products. I don't think i would want to live in a world with a complete walmart Philosophy. I like my nice products too much to sacrifice the quality.



Leather man said:


> Having read the Henry Poole/ Hanloon Tailor thread I am reminded of another story that shocked me when I heard it last year. That is, even the sacred and beloved English Northampton shoe industry is not free of this "Made in England - oh sorry that should say India disception.
> 
> Loake, Barker, Grenson, and so I was told all the "lower end" English shoemakers now have the majority ( don't know about their most expensive ranges) of their shoes made in India and are looking at China!
> 
> ...


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## jar2574 (Aug 30, 2007)

It's always been about money. Pride in one's product doesn't get one very far when someone else can make a cheaper product that is perceived as equal to yours. That's always been the case. 

The difference today is that with cheaper communication and cheaper transportation, manufacturing a shirt in China and selling it in England has become cheaper. Consumers are thus more likely to by the shirt from China than they were in the past.

Unfortunately, the general public doesn't care about the quality of its clothing as much as this forum. Therefore many fine clothing makers have been run out of business. And many fine clothing makers are going "down-market" because not enough of their customers respect true quality.

I blame the consumer for most clothing offshoring, because if enough consumers cared about quality, then producers would continue to produce quality or others would step in to fill the void.

The manufacturers are just selling what the public wants at prices the public is willing to pay.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

BTW anyone who's encountered 600-thread Chinese rugs will not be too quick to dismiss Chinese workmanship.


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## Maveric (Dec 14, 2007)

I think this is generally true but with exceptions. For instance, Joseph Abboud seems to be making a go of it with American workers at relatively high wages, even while exporting elsewhere.

https://www.boston.com/business/articles/2007/01/07/made_in_new_bedford_a_suit_designer_retools/

Maveric


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## brioni007 (Dec 3, 2007)

*Made in China*

Well I can give the Chinese credit on rugs, But I believe that is something that the Chinese have excelled in for centuries. I think that I would rather have my bench made shoes, suits, and watches produced in the area where the inhabitants are known for such. Not to say the Chinese can't do it. I think some have a certain romance with some consumer items. And with the bulk of items now being produced in China has in my opinion salted the water. The worlds largest works force does not equate worlds greatest quality. Not to mention the quality control and the lack there of regulation on imported products. It has been a problem in America. I have first hand experience and knowledge of these issues. On the other hand when I'm in the market for a rug like you mentioned in the post, I will certainly look to the East.


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## brioni007 (Dec 3, 2007)

*You speak the truth*

The prices are on the rise from China. America and the rest of the world are in for a rude awakening. When we destroy the bulk of your production economy. A prime example is the furniture and the textile markets. But for now I will stick with furniture market. We export the wood to China to make the furniture they in turn sell us the products cheaper than the price of the wood that we exported to them to produce the furniture. This is called dumping. This forces all the American based production to cease because you can not compete with unfair labour market practices and dumping. Now the final outcome from dumping is that the Chinese control all the production. Therefore they control the prices, so those once cheap products are not as cheap as they once were. We need to understand the culture in which we are placing our hands.



jar2574 said:


> It's always been about money. Pride in one's product doesn't get one very far when someone else can make a cheaper product that is perceived as equal to yours. That's always been the case.
> 
> The difference today is that with cheaper communication and cheaper transportation, manufacturing a shirt in China and selling it in England has become cheaper. Consumers are thus more likely to by the shirt from China than they were in the past.
> 
> ...


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

The highest quality goods require a market of extremely wealthy patrons to purchase them. The reason goods made in second and third world countries often do not compete with the very best from the West is simple, their is little to no domestic market to support such an endeavor. The reason we have Saville Row is because the British nobility's concentrated wealth created a demand for such super high-end clothing. I think if you look at the quality of items made for the Chinese upper class prior to the Communist takeover, quality would be similarly high. There is a reason that for centuries Chinese luxury goods were imported into Europe to adorn the houses of the nobility.

Obviously learning the intricacies needed to master a craft at its highest level takes time. Europe, where the clothing, automobiles, and other items mentioned here originated, has had a very long period to perfect them. Considering Japan's comparably tiny span post World War II to compete in such markets, their ability to make competing products in a number of areas is extraordinary. It cannot be said that the Japanese do no care about quality- many are fanatical about it. Consider the excesses to which they go through to make Kobe beef, or the absurd distances they are willing to go to fly in the most pristine seafood. The most expensive restaurant in the world is a Japanese temple of simplicity.

In regards to China, the decades of Communist rule have taken a toll on its ability to produce "the best." Before their recent economic reforms, there has been little impetus to create a product beyond what would could be good for the most amount of people. I think we will find however, that as China develops economically and becomes more capitalist in the next few decades, it will eventually be able to successfully compete with the best of the West in terms of quality.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Leather man said:


> I think with this size thing you have hit the nail on the head. Just a small but perfectly illustrative example. Marks and Spencer ( so we are not talking high end here!) used to make 90% of their clothes in the UK. When they did one could go into one of their stores pick up a pair of trousers or a shirt in ones own size and it would fit you when you got it home, 100% of the time. Due to "market pressure", M&S now make about 98% of their clothes in China or other Far Eastern countries. Now, you dare not just "pop in " and pick something up. You need to try on two or three items bearing the same size label to find one that fits! This was the first clue some ten years ago or so that clothes made in the Far East - at least ones that Western firms source- are not good quality. Other clues surfaced like dye quality being poor, shirt buttons and button holes being poor, and so on. As with the previous post, I find it most upsetting that one experiences the same problems with clothes costing two or three times M&S prices but that are also made in China.


A big problem with Marks and Spencer was that they thought they could do no wrong. They were a well-regarded firm. Their share price was always rising. Over time,they stopped concentrating on their wares. Instead they looked to see greater growth opportunities. They tried to reposition themselves as a store that sold goods at a premium, like the big department stores in London's West End.

Neglecting their product and hiking prices led consumers to desert their stores. Primark filled the gap for inexpensive clothing and demonstrated that some of their goods were a match for M&S pricier lines. Two fold cotton shirts at Jermyn Street prices in M&S stores only served to send other customers directly to Jermyn Street. Once you lose a reputation it is difficult to recover.

Outsourcing is also a problem, not just for the clothing and shoe trade. I cannot say too much, as it is more of an interchange topic. However, I do feel our European neighbours have a more sensible approach than the Anglo-Saxon, British and American capitalist approach that only looks at the bottom line of the P&L account.


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