# Kiel James Patrick vs. Lands' End or David vs. Goliath



## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm not a huge fan of Kiel James Patrick's products. Don't get me wrong, they're well-made in Rhode Island (I've bought a few things for my wife) from materials sourced entirely in the USA, but they're still trinkets that I wouldn't normally incorporate into my wardrobe, or that can be sourced from equally genuine sources who don't charge you for lifestyle points and street cred. Maybe I'm not as much in tune with the blogger generation as I thought, but there is definitely some merit in the success he's had based purely on social networking and word of mouth.

That being said, the interwebs was abuzz this weekend with opinions on Lands' End blatantly copying a KJP belt design right down to the product photo, having it manufactured in China and selling it for a fraction of the price.

Christian of Ivy Style and Muffy from The Daily Prep (two rabid KJP fans, for what it's worth) both sounded off on the subject of a corporate giant plagiarizing a small company and undercutting them by means of their volume and offshore manufacturing advantage.

Although I'm sure this kind of thing happens all the time (LE has offshore copies of Bean Boots, Boat and Totes, Barbour jackets etc.), KJP's army of bloggers and twitterers have taken to the cause in a Konyesque frenzy vowing to never buy from LE again and publicly bashing the company at every turn.

So, what does the trad forum think? Should clothing and accessory designs be "off-limits" even though there aren't any laws protecting them (unless your name is Ralph)? Does the fact that the copied designs are being produced off-shore influence your opinion?


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

That's just business. People might as well complain about all knockoff OCBDs that people "stole" from Brooks, etc. Absent patent protection (and this stuff ain't exactly patentable) that's the way its supposed to work - someone comes along with a competitive product and it's up to people to decide on the relative value of the product (i.e., does the Made in USA and an alleged quality differential justify the higher price).

I can't stand that KJP stuff and I don't own any of it - stupid, trendy nonsense IMHO. But, it's up to KJP, now, to justify the premium price for the product or lower its prices and makes smaller margins, or go bye-bye. Using proxies to whine about "stealing" or "plagiarizing" when what LE is doing is perfectly acceptable, and from an objective economic view, probably desireable, is a bit misguided. Let the market place decide - the competition may make KJP a better company and improve it offerings in ways he hadn't thought; it may hurt it too. Time will tell. I'm indifferent.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

^^ This was my initial reaction as well, with the OCBD being the obvious example in my mind. But while this has happened quietly and with little more than a whimper from the "originators," social networking has somewhat leveled the playing field for the little guy in this regard and LE might feel the sting a bit more than they would've ten or even five years ago.


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## dkoernert (May 31, 2011)

I understand KJP's frustration, as this is his livelihood and he is doing everything he can to produce a quality product. I also understand the frustration with LE manufacturing the product in China.

That being said, I still fail to see the problem here. There are copies of everything in the clothing industry, just like you pointed out hardline. LE is not the only company doing it either. I, for one, appreciate the ability to have different choices. I guess you could say I am a fan of competition.

I 100% agree with Epaminodas in that KJP now has to justify the price premium. He had it easy before, with virtually a total lack of competition, now he has to prove himself.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

For what it's worth, I don't see it on the LE site right now. But also, strictly as a consumer (and, in the consumer goods industry, isn't that all that really matters?) I like having the option to buy a LE belt that looks like the KJP belt because, at presumably half the cost, I don't have to shell out an arm and a leg for another kitschy belt. At $40, if I kind of like the belt, I'm much more likely to buy it compared to KJP's ridiculous $88 price tag. Also, unlike, say, Smathers and Branson, the KJP brand means nothing to me in terms of quality, durability, and enduring style. 

In the bigger picture, I don't know anyone who has bought any of that stuff anyway. I mean... $45 for a cheesy looking bracelet? It all seems a bit nouveau riche and tawdry to me... especially with all of Ivy/New England/"I'm so in the know you probably had to google the name of this product just to get understand the obscure reference" slang. It's all a very "Ivy League Hipster" mentality if you ask me.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Is KJP really going to lose a lot of business to LE? KJP is selling the story as much as the belt/bracelet. Now he can be "The Original."

Rather than pitch a fit, he needs to embrace the fact that he's moved into the playing field of the big boys. Speaking of which, Ralph Lauren has built a fortune on well selected imitation of classics.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I thought the extent of the copying was a bit absurd. That was my issue with it. Even the keeper loop is directly ripped. Illegal? Nah, but pretty crappy.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tilton said:


> For what it's worth, I don't see it on the LE site right now. But also, strictly as a consumer (and, in the consumer goods industry, isn't that all that really matters?) I like having the option to buy a LE belt that looks like the KJP belt because, at presumably half the cost, I don't have to shell out an arm and a leg for another kitschy belt. At $40, if I kind of like the belt, I'm much more likely to buy it compared to KJP's ridiculous $88 price tag. Also, unlike, say, Smathers and Branson, the KJP brand means nothing to me in terms of quality, durability, and enduring style.
> 
> In the bigger picture, I don't know anyone who has bought any of that stuff anyway. I mean... $45 for a cheesy looking bracelet? It all seems a bit nouveau riche and tawdry to me... especially with all of Ivy/New England/"I'm so in the know you probably had to google the name of this product just to get understand the obscure reference" slang. It's all a very "Ivy League Hipster" mentality if you ask me.


I think that KJP as a brand does deserve some measure of admiration . As I've said, his products are not for me. However, for a guy who until very recently was making all of his products by hand with his friends out of his parents' garage, he's been very faithful to his commitment to quality and sourcing all of his materials from the USA as well as employing fellow craftsmen in other trades (e.g. Frank Clegg, who makes all of the leatherwork for his products) to help him out. He's in a prime spot for a cash-grab outsourcing move and his hesitance to do so opened up the spot for LE to step in (here's the link to the ).

For what it's worth, I don't like to be sold a "lifestyle" along with my product, and that's a huge part of why I don't like KJP stuff. But the few items I've bought are well-made, with attention to detail all the way through to the packaging. If he had just let his product do the talking (and not spend so much money on photoshoots and schmoozing) like Eliza B./Leatherman or Nantucket Knotworks his brand might be more appreciated by those who admire quality, but his blogosphere super-stardom puts his brand squarely in the "Ivy League Hipster" category, as you said.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

I dont think we should confuse if we like KJP or not with the question if what LE did was justifiable.

If the original design was distinguished and it was copied directly then that is questionable. Lands End have designers of their own, should not be hard to avoid directly copying KJP. 

As for KJP:s pricing, there is such a thing as positioning your price to meet demand, so KJP probably can't set his price independently of the market. Judging from what some people spend on jeans I don't see his pricing as anything out of the ordinary.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> As for KJP:s pricing, there is such a thing as positioning your price to meet demand, so KJP probably can't set his price independently of the market. Judging from what some people spend on jeans I don't see his pricing as anything out of the ordinary.


I'm not complaining about his pricing. What I am saying is that, to me, his products are kitschy and, while I often do buy novelty stuff that I will wear every once in a while, I make a point to buy them with the regularity with which I will wear them in mind. For instance, I do not shy away from spending a couple hundred on a pair of jeans whereas I go out of my way to buy things like needlepoint belts or bright colored canvas shoes on sale because I simply won't get ample use out of them for the price. I imagine that when most people are looking for a braided cotton belt like that, perhaps with an interesting keeper, they have a specific use for it (4-5 outfits or occasions), and thus overlook the story behind the product and the lifestyle sold with that product and are more interested in style and price point.

I think, that if someone were in the market for that belt, the LE belt would win out. Not to steal the Occupy rhetoric, but 99% of consumers are value-oriented.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

True...


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Bjorn said:


> If the original design was distinguished and it was copied directly then that is questionable. Lands End have designers of their own, should not be hard to avoid directly copying KJP.


 Nonsense. It happens ALL the time - it's standard industry practice and shouldn't be a suprise to anyone. Runway fashions are literally copied within hours after being on the catwalk and merchandised within weeks/days. The examples are legion - there's nothing questionable about the practice. How many makers of jeans, bluchers, camp mocs, OCBDs, repp ties, polo shirts, penny loafers are there? Guess what? Someone copied the original design and others then joined in the market. And, aren't most of us glad to have a wide selction on the price/quality matrix?



Bjorn said:


> As for KJP:s pricing, there is such a thing as positioning your price to meet demand, so KJP probably can't set his price independently of the market. Judging from what some people spend on jeans I don't see his pricing as anything out of the ordinary.


 There's also such as thing as economic "rents." You may think the pricing fine - but apparently, given that same pricing, LE thinks there's room for them and that they can meet the demand at a lower price (ignoring issues of quality). If you, subjectively, think the price is a good value - buy up! LE, obviously thinks that there is a market at a lower price. Like I said, the marketplace will decide.

This is a single, stupid belt, pleople. It's not KJP's whole product line (not that there would be anything wrong with LE copying all of that that either) or even a good potion of it - and it's a woman's belt, at that (always thought KJP stuff was pretty much for women, anyway - apprently LE thinks so too). What naif goes into business thinking that a good idea, to the extent not protectable, will not be copied?


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Technically speaking, there's an extra cord in LE's braid (5 vs. 4 for the KJP belt), so one could argue that it's not an exact copy. 

Still, I think whining about it shows how naive KJP appears to be. If he didn't think something like this would happen eventually, he's living in a fantasy land. He should be glad that it's only one belt, in one color, for women only, and will probably be gone from their catalog after one season. A more enterprising copy-cat could've ripped off his entire product line (see Tucker Blair vs. Smathers & Branson for an example of the latter).

I agree with Alan. KJP should be taking advantage of this. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. He now has a product worthy of being called "The Original." Authenticity is a hard commodity to come by.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm not sure that KJP is whining, I don't know him so it'd be tough to say. He may be leveraging the possible outrage smartly, to turn it into a faux pas amongst some to buy the copied good. That can only cause him to not lose business, and possibly gain it if truly, no pub is bad pub.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

I do think copying designs is par for the course in the fashion business. Hopefully, KJP can take advantage of the publicity. The fact that the copying was done by LE, which offshores production doesn't bother me. I would rather pay more for certain items and support owner-operated or family buinesses which manufacturer in the US.


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

FWIW, I agree with Tilton and Epaminondas. I've been to KJP's website a couple of times and liked that belt, but at $88, I decided to like it in the abstract rather than buying it. I just wouldn't get enough use out of it. Then, I read about the dustup. Hmm, thought I, let's see what LE's price point is and if the Knock-off is attractive.

So, I looked in the LE Men's belts section of their website, and as we now all know, it isn't there. So, I went to the distaff side of the house, and there it was - a belt for ladies! But it was forty bucks. Hey! That was in my use-adjusted price range. Checked out the women's size chart for a large woman and up popped the intended waist size - 33-35 inches. I'm a 34 ( a 33 on a good day) and it's a 1.25" width, so it would fit....

I'll let you know how it works out. I am the countervailing force. I was a buyer at $40 when I'd never buy at $88. I don't expect the LE item to equal KJP's quality, LE can call it a Ladies belt all day long and it won't bother me, and if it lasts for 100 wearings, that would extend beyond my personal expiration date.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

don't we aspire to posses the connoisseur's eye, to tell the genuine article from the knockoff at a glance? :icon_smile_wink:


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

It's interesting that this is cropping up. Over the past few weeks KJP has been posting pictures of his new "factory" and some of the goings on that have occurred therein. He's clearly projecting his personality and lifestyle as pillars of the brand. He's lined the floors with oriental rugs and appointed the environment with furniture appropriate for a Martha's Vineyard beach house. He also showed all of his outgoing orders laid out on an oriental rug with little notes ready to be packed and shipped. 

Now a great deal of this may be to promote the brand image the way Ralph Lauren's colorado ranch serves as a marketing asset, but my first reaction was that he was dead in the water. There's no way you can scale that sort of nonsense up. In a sense those sort of activities simply can't be part of a successful business. It's just too expensive to be that cute and you'll never recoup it. It will simply absorb your margins until you're broke. 

So here we'll get to see it in action. Land's End, which probably doesn't lay out their outgoing orders on expensive rugs, is going to undersell him. Good for them. If he's smart, good for him. 

I guess we'll see whether he sinks or swims.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

It's interesting that no one has mentioned whether or not KJP and LE even share a demographic. I'd say that a small percentage of consumers are aware of both brands and even fewer would consider shopping at both retailers. If it hadn't been for the even smaller percentage that also have a fashion blog, this wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

hardline_42 said:


> It's interesting that no one has mentioned whether or not KJP and LE even share a demographic.


*cough*



AlanC said:


> Is KJP really going to lose a lot of business to LE?


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

hookem12387 said:


> I'm not sure that KJP is whining


You be the judge.



> It broke my heart to have customers, friends and family send me link after link this past week to Lands' End's e-commerce site. There was my creation being sold at a fraction of the cost simply by sacrificing quality, originality and integrity of local production. I couldn't have felt more discouraged on my mission to continue designing original products and sustaining my American production. I design for myself and am not hired by corporate companies so that they may ship my ideas off to China carelessly in order to make a quick buck, all the meanwhile destroying the diminishing American spirit of industry, originality and entrepreneurship. The belt I created helps employ over 20 Americans. Lands' End's knock-off arrives to America in a box labeled "Made in China."


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## Billax (Sep 26, 2011)

The Rambler said:


> don't we aspire to posses the connoisseur's eye, to tell the genuine article from the knockoff at a glance? :icon_smile_wink:


 I think so, Rambler, but you may be posing a different question. I aspire to distinguish between a Ferrari 250 SWB, covered-headlight Spyder California and the Long Wheel Base version of same - and I'm pretty sure I can - but at 11 million simoleons for the Short Wheel Base, I'll appreciate the distinction in the abstract and keep drivin' my daily driver.:smile:


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

AlanC said:


> *cough*


....except Alan C. :redface:


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

Admittedly, I've never heard of KJP or his wares, so I perused his site for a few minutes.

Am I missing something, or is this fuss over a "craftsman" who makes leather and ribbon bracelets? I like where he sources his raw materials, but . . . bracelets? Really? Can't he at least make one of those to hold a watch?


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Mississippi Mud said:


> Admittedly, I've never heard of KJP or his wares, so I perused his site for a few minutes.
> 
> Am I missing something, or is this fuss over a "craftsman" who makes leather and ribbon bracelets? I like where he sources his raw materials, but . . . bracelets? Really? Can't he at least make one of those to hold a watch?


Well, he's got some bow ties, too.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

There's an angle that KJP can play. Explaining that his belt creates 20 american jobs is a big deal. Put that on the website instead of (or in addition to) pictures of his lady friend and he might create some waves. He can also shop this story to any number of print magazines, blogs, etc. He'll probably make more money and faster than if he had just quietly eked out more internet business.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Trip English said:


> There's an angle that KJP can play. Explaining that his belt creates 20 american jobs is a big deal. Put that on the website instead of (*or in addition to*) pictures of his lady friend and he might create some waves. He can also shop this story to any number of print magazines, blogs, etc. He'll probably make more money and faster than if he had just quietly eked out more internet business.


I almost missed that and was ready to fix it for you. There should be an entire thread devoted to her and her friends.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Topsider said:


> You be the judge.


I'd be willing to bet someone looking on his site will see that message, investigate for himself, and ultimately realize that for $44 he couldn't care less about KJP's sob (saab? we are talking sailing RI prepsters here) story about his quality braided belts and how big evil LE stole his baby and is going to take the jobs of KJP's closest friends, and they will buy the belt and never look back. I think he did his company a serious disservice by alerting his site's visitors to the fact that lookalike KJP is available at LE for half price.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Trip English said:


> There's an angle that KJP can play. Explaining that his belt creates 20 american jobs is a big deal. Put that on the website instead of (or in addition to) pictures of his lady friend and he might create some waves. He can also shop this story to any number of print magazines, blogs, etc. He'll probably make more money and faster than if he had just quietly eked out more internet business.


To quote KJP himself, "I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails and always reach my destination."

https://kieljamespatrick.tumblr.com/

He should take his own advice.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Mississippi Mud said:


> Admittedly, I've never heard of KJP or his wares, so I perused his site for a few minutes.
> 
> Am I missing something, or is this fuss over a "craftsman" who makes leather and ribbon bracelets? I like where he sources his raw materials, but . . . bracelets? Really? Can't he at least make one of those to hold a watch?


Mud, is it really that outlandish? Think about Smathers and Branson. They're revered on this forum despite the fact that they only sell variations of a single niche product and it's all made in Vietnam. KJP makes belts, ties, bows and accessories for the ladies, all in the USA, all by hand. The only difference is that S&B built up their reputation quietly, over time. KJP has his internet connections and blogger buddies to thank for his meteoric rise.

As for holding a watch...


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Mississippi Mud said:


> Can't he at least make one of those to hold a watch?


Yes, I've wondered the same thing. I could do a watch strap, but I don't do bracelets (or necklaces or earrings).

Edit: What's the width on that brace...watch strap?


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I feel bad for him, but this is the nature of doing business especially when you aren't dealing with innovative products protected by patent. Frankly, I'd try and peddle my company to someone larger and get bought out.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

hardline_42 said:


> As for holding a watch...


Looks a little, um..."girly." And that button doesn't look very secure. I'd fear for that Rolex's safety on that strap.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Topsider said:


> Looks a little, um..."girly." And that button doesn't look very secure. I'd fear for that Rolex's safety on that strap.


Girly indeed, but it's the image that came to mind when Mud asked about it. I think a Zulu strap made from some of his repp designs would be interesting and not that much harder to make.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

hardline_42 said:


> Think about Smathers and Branson. They're revered on this forum despite the fact that they only sell variations of a single niche product and it's all made in Vietnam.


Tucker Blair copied several of S&B's designs when they came onto the scene at a lower price point. Nonetheless, S&B survives to this day. So does Tucker Blair.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Topsider said:


> To quote KJP himself, "I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails and always reach my destination."
> 
> https://kieljamespatrick.tumblr.com/
> 
> He should take his own advice.


As Kongfuzi said "The relation between superiors and inferiors is like that between the wind and the grass. The grass must bend, when the wind blows across it."

As an English major with an Indo-Asian philosophical literature concentration, I couldn't resist the comment. Coincidentally, if anyone was curious, as an English major with an Indo-Asian philosophical literature concentration, I generally _can_ resist employment.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Topsider said:


> Tucker Blair copied several of S&B's designs when they came onto the scene at a lower price point. Nonetheless, S&B survives to this day. So does Tucker Blair.


Very good point. I remember that TB got quite a lashing as well but the dust has settled and they both have their own share of what I'm sure is a very large needlepoint market. IIRC, Tucker Blair undercut S&B by debuting their products in B&M stores, then undercutting their own retailers with web-only pricing and phasing out their B&M stock. A different tactic, but then again TB and S&B are both low-volume, niche retailers.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Personally, if I were in the market for a rope knot belt, I'd order this one from Leatherman, Ltd. Only $35, multiple colors to pick from, you get your choice of leather tabs and buckle colors, and it's made in Connecticut.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

^^ This. Or make your own.


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## Larchmont (Jan 2, 2005)

Early 80's, Day Prep School. The "in crowd" wore Sperry or Sebago. I had Thom McAn. My parents would not justify the additional expense of the name brands with the sailing history. So I had knock offs (insert Adidas or Converse All Stars as needed, I had knock-offs of those as well). 

Did I understand the economic implications on the manufacture of the various boat shoes? No. I was a kid. I wanted Prep-cred. To me, Kiel James Patrick supplies individuals in the know with their own 21st century prep-cred. I am no longer in the know but is that group going to buy a knock-off? Probably not. But their non-in-the-know parents / grandparents may and, for the most part, said knock-off will be put in the drawer or closet or abused in such a fashion to reduce the identification and/or the life of the product. I know I did.

What did I do when I had my own purchasing power Senior Year? I went to the top of the prep-cred for top-siders (at least for us at the time): Sperry Kudu's.

As an adult did I buy Thom McAn tassel loafers? Ha! Before my first real paycheck hit I was at Brooks Brothers - cordovan tassels for me. The fact that I still have them after close to 20 years does not make my price-to-wearing ratio come into my mind. While not a lifestyle accessory, I still get great pleasure in slipping on the Brooks / Alden shoe.

If a niece or nephew tells me they want a KJP whatever, am I going to go to Sears? Nope, I'll supply the requested trinket with (apparently) the great packaging (thanks Steve Jobs for showing us that packaging counts).

Time to decide between a Tanqueray and Tonic (Hansen's cane tonic) or an Evan Williams 10 year single barrel with a splash of water (tap). We all have our own cred items or idiosyncrasies.

You'll do fine KJP. Cheers to Vickers and all that.


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## Fraser Tartan (May 12, 2010)

The publicity generated by this controversy will be good for business at KJP.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Lands' End did the same with Kent Wang's polo shirt design. I let him know about it, but haven't heard back.


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## frosejr (Mar 27, 2010)

Just took a look for the first time at the KJP website/Tumblr/whatever it is. Pretentious much?


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## Ekphrastic (Oct 4, 2009)

Tilton said:


> Coincidentally, if anyone was curious, as an English major with an Indo-Asian philosophical literature concentration, I generally _can_ resist employment.


This is completely off-topic, but I had to publicly praise the best comment of the day. Huzzah, sir. (And, yes, I'm an English professor.)


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Larchmont said:


> Early 80's, Day Prep School. The "in crowd" wore Sperry or Sebago. I had Thom McAn. My parents would not justify the additional expense of the name brands with the sailing history. So I had knock offs (insert Adidas or Converse All Stars as needed, I had knock-offs of those as well).
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


This seems about right. My only question is whether Lands End really want to position themselves as the equivalent of Thom Mcann. Obviously its never really been at the top of the food chain, but I wonder if they are really going to the bottom.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

It is nice to see the macramé belt getting some attention. I do not see it as much as I used to. Maybe you will inadvertently start a revival.

This is another variation by Nantucket knotworks. 









Moving on I think someone else asked about quality, KJP laid it out in the first four paragraphs of his response to Ivy style.

For myself the LE design is to close to KJP. It has that street vendor LV bag/rolex feel about it.



Topsider said:


> Personally, if I were in the market for a rope knot belt, I'd order this one from Leatherman, Ltd. Only $35, multiple colors to pick from, you get your choice of leather tabs and buckle colors, and it's made in Connecticut.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

frosejr said:


> Just took a look for the first time at the KJP website/Tumblr/whatever it is. Pretentious much?


Pretentious, maybe, but _brilliant_. They have a really specific, fully realized brand image which is good enough to sell FIFTY-EIGHT DOLLAR ROPE BRACELETS. They don't even put bourbon in 'em or nothing.

I've kept hearing about the importance of digital marketing and branding (as an independent filmmaker, that's what I'll have to do instead of kowtow to Gucci-shod Hollywood producers), and the more I learn about it, the more I appreciate just how clever KJP & Co. are. I'm not too worried about them. I understand the pain of having an idea copied, but when you get right down to it, most people who'll buy the LE belt wouldn't have bought the KJP one. Most people who want a KJP belt aren't going to "settle" for the LE option.

Also, I think the repp ties with the "rope" stripes are super cool, and a repp-stripe watchband would be awesome. Too bad I probably couldn't afford a hypothetical KJP version.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

I wonder if any of these miffed KJP fans attempted to utilize the review feature on the LE listing. LE's known to publish negative ones (even mine), as do LLB. Of course, they wipe out reviews when they change SKU's. :crazy:


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I actually read all of the comments on Ivy Style. The most notable one, before it got into an insane lib on lib free-for-all that stemmed from some crazy ranting about how trickle down economics has something to do with Chinese factory workers, was that the most scandalous thing going on here is that KJP ripped off the logo for the Catholic organization Congregation of the Holy Cross. Hmmmm... I guess no good deed goes unpunished.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

When I initially saw this I thought it was really terrible (with the caveat I wouldn't buy anything from KJP and I find their marketing all together too cute), but Epaminondas made a good point, that this sort of plagiarism happens all the time in the clothing industry.

Still, I've had friends who've had their artwork, furniture and jewelry designs straight up copied by bigger retailers. They're basically out of luck when it happens, as the cost of legal action is beyond what they can afford and getting into a fight with someone with deep pockets can be all sorts of trouble. So I understand why KJP might be annoyed by this.



This forum is awfully hard to pin down on this issue as a whole. 
You'll read posts talking about how great small shops are, how the service is better and how important it is to buy quality stuff from them. Next thing we're complaining about high price points, questioning handwritten notes to customers, and mocking when stuff is called 'handmade' and 'craftsman'.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> Next thing we're complaining about high price points, questioning handwritten notes to customers, and mocking when stuff is called 'handmade' and 'craftsman'.


I have a higher tolerance: I draw the line at "Artisanal".


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## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

^Also, if he says that his line of belts is "curated," that would pretty much guarantee I'd never buy one.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

CMDC said:


> ^Also, if he says that his line of belts is "curated," that would pretty much guarantee I'd never buy one.


How about his claim of KJP's "current standing as a rejuvenation of sophisticated New England design"?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

I think it's safe to say you guys (or us guys) are not the target demographic, most of us. 

I don't find his products to be lacking in quality or design, and the marketing is good. He's in his right to call LE out on this in public if he wants to. 

I actually thought this was something y'all would go bananas for, it being made in America and LE being, well, made in the big bad C. I'm guessing this would get a different reaction here it were the AE strands being copied


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

His branding or marketing strategy really isn't at issue here. The fundamental question is whether or not it's unusual or unacceptable for a company like LE to copy an existing product. The answer, of course, is "no" on both counts. That's just the nature of the business.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Topsider said:


> ...That's just the nature of the business.


It certainly has been for a long, long time. But with the popularity of the internet and ease with which a disgruntled person, previously too lazy to write a letter or make a phone call, can take to the web and smear an individual or company for perceived wrongdoing to millions of readers might go a long way towards changing that.

In the OP I referred to the backlash this had generated as "Konyesque," in the sense that, much like the whole Kony 2012 fad, there was an enormous swell of support for something that had been happening for years and nobody cared about previously, simply because the internet generation was made aware of it via the most popular social networking sites and the idea that, if they typed angrily enough, they could do something about it.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

hardline_42 said:


> It certainly has been for a long, long time. But with the popularity of the internet and ease with which a disgruntled person, previously too lazy to write a letter or make a phone call, can take to the web and smear an individual or company for perceived wrongdoing to millions of readers might go a long way towards changing that.


If anything, the Internet makes it easier to market knock-offs.


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## TomS (Mar 29, 2010)

KJP goes out of his way to blur the distinction between himself and his brand, all the while cultivating an image of his "factory" as a harem of beautiful preppy girls in headbands. This may go some way to explaining the lack of sympathy in some quarters, justified or otherwise.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I have nothing against the use of himself and his s/o (they recently celebrated ten years together, congrats for them) as models and I'm not sure why that's such a big deal for others. Many small brands do the same thing (Cordial Churchman, anyone?) and Ralph Lauren and Tom Ford have used themselves as models many times. They put their name as the brand, why not their face? It's cheaper than hiring models. Especially if you're good looking, there's no reason not to.

At the same time, there are rumours of him fudging his backstory. The "prep school" he went to actually being an ordinary Christian school, for example. That I take some issue with. Haven't seen what TomS is referring to, but it would be more honest to take candid pictures/videos of his employees working on the products like every other company does (Rancourt, for example). If he does keep 20 people employed in the USA, he should state that on his website, too.

In short, while I have some reservations about his "preppy" credentials and _aspects_ of the brand image, his stuff is of good quality and I could see myself gifting it for friends of mine, even if I might not wear it myself.

(I agree that the button watchband is a fundamentally poor idea, why not just make regular watchbands?)


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Eh, questioning "credentials" seems a bit silly. Schools call themselves what they will. I went to a Jesuit "College Preparatory School" in Houston, but there was no boarding, and it wasn't in the northeast. Was it really a "prep school"? Who knows/cares.

He does a good job of selling a lifestyle and is apparently doing well through it. I do agree with Trip in wondering how they scale up, though.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

While I agree with you, Hookem, the guy lays it on pretty thick on his website, in fact he makes _The Daily Prep _looks like _Mother Jones._ It's no wonder that people want to question his credentials. :icon_smile_big:


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

hardline_42 said:


> ... the idea that, if they typed angrily enough, they could do something about it.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

The Rambler said:


> While I agree with you, Hookem, the guy lays it on pretty thick on his website, in fact he makes _The Daily Prep _looks like _Mother Jones._ It's no wonder that people want to question his credentials. :icon_smile_big:


Agreed. To me, the need to constantly remind everyone how "authentic," etc. a product is makes it seem...well, inauthentic.


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## frosejr (Mar 27, 2010)

mjo_1 said:


> Agreed. To me, the need to constantly remind everyone how "authentic," etc. a product is makes it seem...well, inauthentic.


Trying WAY too hard. Pretentious. Just be what you are, tell us what you are, without rubbing my nose in it. I get it. Your GF/wife is a prep hottie, your stuff will sweep me away to prep heaven if I buy/use it, I get it.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I disagree with Rambler. Actually, ever since someone complained about The Daily Prep in my blog comments, I've been checking it out from time to time and kind of like it.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Along the same lines of what others have said, it's the nature I the business and I personally feel that KJP is being kind of a whiny sissy. About it. Here is some more evidence of the very same thing, from a company that rips off everything it's ever done. 
I want one of each!
https://www.skechers.com/info/bobs?mobile=true


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## Beefeater (Jun 2, 2007)

Funny to see a thread about KJP lasting this long. He's probably amused more than anything. I've bought several of his bracelets as gifts and for myself and can attest to the quality and value in each of them. To each his own. . .Peace.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Reaction 1: I'll probably wait till WalMart is selling this type of belt. Then I won't want it anymore. I'll have saved all that money and invested it in bad stocks or zero interest savings accounts.

Reaction 2: next thing you know some company will start making "Norwegians" in South America or China and selling them in the US as penny loafers.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

firedancer said:


> Along the same lines of what others have said, it's the nature I the business and I personally feel that KJP is being kind of a whiny sissy. About it. Here is some more evidence of the very same thing, from a company that rips off everything it's ever done.
> I want one of each!
> https://www.skechers.com/info/bobs?mobile=true


A whiny sissy? Get real, man! He has every right to be upset. Was Cecil Lyon also being a whiny sissy? Just because it's the "nature of the business" doesn't make it right.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Oh please Jovan! KJP can cry me a river. When you voluntarily get involved in a business where knock offs and copies are par for the course, you need to go in with your eyes open. The fact that he's so shocked tells me he's uber naive or just plain stupid. 

Walk into any Target and you will see discounted versions of runway and popular fashions. 

No sympathy here.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Jovan said:


> Was Cecil Lyon also being a whiny sissy? Just because it's the "nature of the business" doesn't make it right.


I think Cecil's main issue was with the way he was lured into sending Bean samples.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

That's what made it even more of a backhanded slap, IMO.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

P Hudson said:


> Reaction 2: next thing you know some company will start making "Norwegians" in South America or China and selling them in the US as penny loafers.


This is really my only thought on the subject.

Doesn't every one sell 3/2 blazers, ribbon belts, repp ties, etc? It is not what you make that sets you apart, but how well you make and market it (for us here however, less is more in the marketing area).

Also, I...Ummm...like the Daily Prep.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

LOL. Given his apparent sensitivity to social injustices, I suspect KJP is reading this thread and is, at his very core, gratified by the realization that so many of us are not wasting our time debating less significant global challenges, such as world hunger, the increasing incidence of genocide, global warming, etc.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Eh, I expect all of it is well planned by him to drum up business. The prep school ramblings, the 'outrage' and 'hurt' at being copied, all of it. Why? Because he's trying to sell something. I've seen more mention of KJP on tumblr and blogs lately than I ever have before, I bet he's getting business out of it. Maybe I just defend him because his girlfriend is hot, though, you can never quite be sure.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

Jovan said:


> A whiny sissy? Get real, man! He has every right to be upset. Was Cecil Lyon also being a whiny sissy? Just because it's the "nature of the business" doesn't make it right.


Yes, I said this on the Ivy Style site and on Muffy's site and I'll say it here. Or, rather, I'll let you say it, and I'll agree. The "it happens all the time" justification is not persuasive. Of course it happens all the time. Those who say this are just describing the situation, not commenting on it.

I also agree with Hookem's earlier point that it's one thing to knock off a concept, but to appropriate every single detail, lock, stock, and barrel is beyond the pale.


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

Sartre said:


> Yes, I said this on the Ivy Style site and on Muffy's site and I'll say it here. Or, rather, I'll let you say it, and I'll agree. The "it happens all the time" justification is not persuasive. Of course it happens all the time. Those who say this are just describing the situation, not commenting on it.
> 
> I also agree with Hookem's earlier point that it's one thing to knock off a concept, but to appropriate every single detail, lock, stock, and barrel is beyond the pale.


And the obviously copied pose of the stock photograph added insult to injury.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

If you make something to sell it you invest a lot of time, energy and consideration in it. I don't find his reaction faked. Had he had a design patent, I'm guessing the copy would be actionable as an infringement (?).

Also, this discussion on what is more or less 'genuine' prep or ivy, unless you are a league college professor or hnw ivy league professional working in the 60's and participating in this forum by means of time travel, I question your genuinity. Just slightly. It's aspirational to follow dress codes, if you did not invent them yourself. 

Perhaps he does more to make young people appreciate a more classic approach to style than say, O'Connels?


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

ArtVandalay said:


> And the obviously copied pose of the stock photograph added insult to injury.


That did twist the knife a bit, but I bet LE ordered a belt. LLB requesting a free sample from Mr. Lyon is even worse.


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

Taken Aback said:


> That did twist the knife a bit, but I bet LE ordered a belt. LLB requesting a free sample from Mr. Lyon is even worse.


Is there a link to what you're referring to so I can read up on that one? Afraid I'm not familiar.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

ArtVandalay said:


> Is there a link to what you're referring to so I can read up on that one? Afraid I'm not familiar.


Read the updated blog post from The Daily Prep. The owner of Eliza B./Leatherman Ltd. comments on his own similar (worse, actually) experience with L.L. Bean.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

I don't know who exactly LE is ripping off w/ these shoes, but I'm sure it's someone we know. I also find it strange the item just came out in the past few days yet already has a positive review 

Brian


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

vwguy said:


> I don't know who exactly LE is ripping off w/ these shoes, but I'm sure it's someone we know. I also find it strange the item just came out in the past few days yet already has a positive review
> 
> Brian


Those are sort of a Red Wing copy. Not quite, but edging on it. But, those aren't really this-week new. I think they were in the Feb/March catalog.


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## zarathustra (Aug 24, 2006)

Look, as much as I love artisinal vendors and loke being different from everyone else, this is no differernt that DVF's claim. Look at me. I invented it! The piano key neck tie... er um... I mean the wrap dress. You want to run with the big boys, be prepared for it. Knock offs is fashion.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

Tilton said:


> Those are sort of a Red Wing copy. Not quite, but edging on it. But, those aren't really this-week new. I think they were in the Feb/March catalog.


Damned faux 360° lacing again.

Speaking of Red Wing, I have a pair of US-made oil resistant boots from Ponderosa that at first glance look like RW's. I wonder if they were another "homage" (can't find the company today).


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

All of the orignal red wings with the ripple wedge sole have been copied for so many years they're no longer red wing copies. They're just work books. Look around and you'll see similar boots from Orvis, Duluth, Cabelas, Bass Pro, Gander Mtn, Dick's, LL Bean, etc... they rotate around... seasonally, you know. Have to keep fresh designs rolling through.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Land's End and L.L. Bean should have read Seth Godin:

https://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths...stion-to-ask-before-extending-your-brand.html


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

vwguy said:


> I don't know who exactly LE is ripping off w/ these shoes, but I'm sure it's someone we know. I also find it strange the item just came out in the past few days yet already has a positive review
> 
> Brian


Absent the 360 degree lacing pattern and equipped with that white Vibram christy wedge sole, they look very similar the the Ranger Mocs Rancourt recently crafted for me. However, looks can be deceiving and though they were about twice the price, LOL, I'll stick with my Rancourts!


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

vwguy said:


> I don't know who exactly LE is ripping off w/ these shoes, but I'm sure it's someone we know. I also find it strange the item just came out in the past few days yet already has a positive review
> 
> Brian


Oak Street Bootmakers is the victim.


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## roman totale XVII (Sep 18, 2009)

Taken Aback said:


> That did twist the knife a bit, but I bet LE ordered a belt. LLB requesting a free sample from Mr. Lyon is even worse.


It was considerably worse, but actually sending it was naive in the extreme.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

Not so, if it were after a solicitation to distribute.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Larsd4 said:


> Oak Street Bootmakers is the victim.


No, Oak Street clearly copied Red Wing. The Red Wing wedge oxfords have been around decades. LL Bean just varied it up a bit and made it look like a boat shoe too.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Bjorn said:


> Had he had a design patent, I'm guessing the copy would be actionable as an infringement (?).


 Yes, and had he wings he could fly and if he had a magic wand......well, you get the idea. The stuff he sells isn't remotely patentable.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Epaminondas said:


> Yes, and had he wings he could fly and if he had a magic wand......well, you get the idea. The stuff he sells isn't remotely patentable.


Should not that belt be patentable as far as a design patent goes? Protecting the ornamental design of a functional item and all. It's more akin to copyright than a utility patent. Or so I seem to recall from law school... ?

A design patent may be had for a font, for example. The European equivalent would be a registered design.

Could not the ornamentation on the belt be covered by copyright as well? Not my field...


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Tilton said:


> No, Oak Street clearly copied Red Wing. The Red Wing wedge oxfords have been around decades. LL Bean just varied it up a bit and made it look like a boat shoe too.


Love the Redwing high-tops, equipped with those wedge soles...great for doing a lot of walking and they do take a beating and continue looking good. Still have a pair in the field/work boot rotation! However, as odd as it sounds, those Red Wing oxfords didn't quite work for a young man growing up in central Pennsylvania...alas, they garnered a lot of unwelcome notice and comment(s), while the high tops seemed perfectly acceptable! :icon_scratch:


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## Griswold (Mar 29, 2010)

Trip English said:


> There's an angle that KJP can play. Explaining that his belt creates 20 american jobs is a big deal. Put that on the website instead of (or in addition to) pictures of his lady friend and he might create some waves. He can also shop this story to any number of print magazines, blogs, etc. He'll probably make more money and faster than if he had just quietly eked out more internet business.


But I like the pictures of his lady friend.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Looks like sommmmmebody decided it was easier to sell the real thing than deal with blogosphere backlash:


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Good eye. I would only add this correction that Orvis bought these belts pre scandal.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Is it just me, or does that $89 price tag look less exorbitant when viewed on the Orvis website? 

I just got a couple of Orvis $25-off coupons that brings the belts down to $64. Still not sure I would bit even at that price.


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

I like Kiel and Sarah and have followed them on Twitter for several years. Yes, they are using their images to promote the brand, but how is that any different than what Ralph Lauren has always done? And while I don't think what Land's End did was right, it's definitely hard to claim ownership of a belt style but I think KJP's reaction has been appropriate and the controversy has probably driven more business to his site than before. Unfortunately, this seems to happen in the fashion world all the time and it appears that there is little that can be done to prevent it.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

hardline_42 said:


> Is it just me, or does that $89 price tag look less exorbitant when viewed on the Orvis website?
> 
> I just got a couple of Orvis $25-off coupons that brings the belts down to $64. Still not sure I would bit even at that price.


Funny you should say that. I look on the KJP website and am repulsed by the prices. But, I look at Orvis and my first thought was "huh, under $100." I guess, having bought the majority of my clothes from Orvis throughout high school and college, I am willing to pony up more dough because their customer service is, hands down, the best I have ever dealt with. I know that I can wear that belt for a week or two, realize that I just don't love it, call up Orvis and get my money back with no questions asked.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Orvis would be a good choice for an initial purchase for the reasons mentioned above.
As an aside my instincts tell me these might be drop shipped.

When this story first broke I looked into who was selling KJP belts. I found a bunch of small firms but the two big ones were Orvis and Tommy Hilfiger. I thought it was interesting that they original sourced were Lands End went with a copy.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

C. Sharp said:


> Orvis would be a good choice for an initial purchase for the reasons mentioned above.
> As an aside my instincts tell me these might be drop shipped.
> 
> When this story first broke I looked into who was selling KJP belts. I found a bunch of small firms but the two big ones were Orvis and Tommy Hilfiger. I thought it was interesting that they original sourced were Lands End went with a copy.


I think it's all about each retailer's intended demographic. Though, admittedly, I know nothing about who Tommy H. is catering to these days, I think the average Orvis shopper would be more appreciated of the KJP belt's provenance and less offended by the price than the average LE female shopper. Of course, there are exceptions, but I think whoever made that call at LE thought so as well.


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## Fraser Tartan (May 12, 2010)

KJP should be partnering with J. Crew as one of its brands. It would be a natural fit.


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## MDP (Jan 14, 2012)

https://www.ivy-style.com/abandon-ship-lands-end-pulls-kjp-belt.html

Apparently LE has pulled the belt and made some talk of a collaboration with KJP.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

... they could have just said that instead of totally ignoring the comments on their Facebook page.


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Bradford said:


> Unfortunately, this seems to happen in the fashion world all the time and it appears that there is little that can be done to prevent it.


If you've ever worn a pair of denim jeans that wasn't Levis, or a trench coat that wasn't Burberry, or a pique polo shirt that wasn't Lacoste, or an OCBD that wasn't Brooks Brothers, or a penny loafer that wasn't Bass, or a tassel loafer that wasn't Alden, a shirt with an attached collar that wasn't Arrow, a boat shoe that wasn't Sperry, a dinner jacket that wasn't from Poole, etc. etc. then you should be glad that this is the way the fashion world works - there's nothing unfortunate about it.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I agree - there would be no fashion industry without thefts and knockoffs. KJP knows that as well as anyone, no doubt. He couldn't have designed a better advertising campain. Of course, there is that embarassing little issue of a nearly identical product for half the price, but I gather LE has pulled it, and is talking to him about doing some design work for them :icon_smile_wink:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Just the fact that they copied it down to the crossed keeper loops makes it worse. I'm not sure why, but it just does for me somehow.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

It wasn't technically "identical," either. The LE braid used more cords than KJP, and they stitched through the front of the belt to attach the fabric backing, which (IMO) looked like crap. You get what you pay for.


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

Epaminondas said:


> If you've ever worn a pair of denim jeans that wasn't Levis, or a trench coat that wasn't Burberry, or a pique polo shirt that wasn't Lacoste, or an OCBD that wasn't Brooks Brothers, or a penny loafer that wasn't Bass, or a tassel loafer that wasn't Alden, a shirt with an attached collar that wasn't Arrow, a boat shoe that wasn't Sperry, a dinner jacket that wasn't from Poole, etc. etc. then you should be glad that this is the way the fashion world works - there's nothing unfortunate about it.


It's unfortunate for the original designer whose work is not protected.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Topsider said:


> It wasn't technically "identical," either. The LE braid used more cords than KJP, and they stitched through the front of the belt to attach the fabric backing, which (IMO) looked like crap. You get what you pay for.


then what's the problem?


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