# Israel may have committed war crimes during Gaza offensive, UN says



## Chouan

Israel may have committed war crimes during Gaza offensive, UN says.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/israel-may-have-committed-war-crimes-in-gaza-un

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...imes-says-uns-human-rights-chief-9624205.html

Israel, of course, denies it, claiming that Hamas is to blame....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/21/hospital-hamas-isreal-hiding-among-civilians

Mind you, they didn't accept that they'd done anything wrong last time either. The apartheid in Israel was being condemned last time as well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...he-knesset-8347504.html?origin=internalSearch


----------



## Kingstonian

They should be in court in The Hague.

However, they pay the USA to get them off the hook.


----------



## Shaver

Didn't this thread get locked? :devil:


----------



## Chouan

Shaver said:


> Didn't this thread get locked? :devil:


Different thread. Just because some American members used offensive language in the other thread there is no reason why Israel's actions in Gaza shouldn't be discussed.


----------



## justonemore

It will end the same. We will have U.N. deniers come out. "There is no such thing as International law", they'll cry. "Israel has a right to do whatever it wants beyond global pressure", they'll say. Who can argue? Afterall, these are "god' chosen people". Right? Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc. women and children have very little meaning to them. What matters is that there are no Israeli jews harmed or harassed at all costs (infighting amongst the various jewish factions is apparently ok though). Strange enough but this behavior almost seems expected from U.S. welfare recipients be they foreign or domestic.


----------



## Shaver

Doubtless our resident Satanist (who requires the Temple to be rebuilt in order to engender his beloved Armageddon cf Matthew Chapter 24) will grace us with his presence once more.

.
.
.

.


----------



## Kingstonian

Chouan said:


> Israel may have committed war crimes during Gaza offensive, UN says.


But a rabbi says it's OK to kill civilians

https://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/07/23/372448/israeli-rabbi-kill-civilians-in-gaza/

So that's alright then....


----------



## Chouan

Evidence of Jewish, or perhaps should I say Zionist, influence on British politics is shown here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ses-for-controversial-gaza-tweet-9624240.html

Fifth paragraph. In case you can't be bothered to read it, it states *"**The Board of Deputies of British Jews urged Nick Clegg to withdraw the party whip from Mr Ward".*

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/23/lib-dem-david-ward-refuses-apologise-gaza-tweet

Again the quote *"**The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Clegg should throw Ward out of the party."*. 

Also, *"**the Tory chairman, Grant Shapps, who said they were an incitement to violence and "completely irresponsible"."* Now there's a surprise!


----------



## SG_67

With the exception of Shaver's comment, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the echo chamber effect that this thread is going to turn into. 

Could someone please get Iran's opinion on this? They do sit on the U.N.'s Women's Rights Commission.


----------



## Chouan

And the relevance of Iran and Iran's opinion is, what exactly?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Hey U.N.,

F.U.!!

Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing

The U.N. secretary-general on Wednesday said he was "alarmed" to hear that rockets were placed in a U.N.-run school in Gaza and now "have gone missing," and he demanded a full review of such incidents.
A statement by the spokesman for Ban Ki-moon expressed the U.N. chief's "outrage and regret" at the placement of weapons at a site run by the global organization. The U.N. says that has happened at least twice so far in the current fighting.
"Those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children," U.N. staff and anyone seeking shelter, the statement said.
The rockets had been placed at one of the schools run by the U.N. refugee agency for Palestinians, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency in Gaza.
Once they were found, "in accordance with standard practice, UNRWA handed them over to the local authorities. Since then, they have gone missing," Ban's deputy spokesman, Farhan Haq, said in an e-mail Wednesday evening.


----------



## SG_67

^ but didn't you know that in order to reduce costs and decrease the carbon footprint, UN schools also double as weapons depots and staging areas for combat?


----------



## SG_67

Chouan said:


> And the relevance of Iran and Iran's opinion is, what exactly?


Merely observing that when one opens with the line "the UN says" it is in fact and rhetoric, utterly meaningless.


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> Merely observing that when one opens with the line "the UN says" it is in fact and rhetoric, utterly meaningless.


Justonemore was right then, and pretty much as quickly as he imagined!
I assume, then, that the UN only has relevance when it is carrying out the wishes of the US, otherwise it is meaningless?


----------



## Chouan

Well, on reflection, I suppose that the best thing for people to do is to ignore the horror of what Israel is doing, and think up some flippant remarks, then, after a while, all the nasty things will go away.


----------



## SG_67

Chouan said:


> Justonemore was right then, and pretty much as quickly as he imagined!
> I assume, then, that the UN only has relevance when it is carrying out the wishes of the US, otherwise it is meaningless?


The U.S. carries out U.S. wishes. What the UN agrees or does not agree to is meaningless.

I've never understood this slavish devotion to the UN and its proclamations.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Well, on reflection, I suppose that the best thing for people to do is to ignore the horror of what Israel is doing, and think up some flippant remarks, then, after a while, all the nasty things will go away.


They only "go away" after the UN "discovers" them in a Gaza school!!


----------



## justonemore

SG_67 said:


> The U.S. carries out U.S. wishes. What the UN agrees or does not agree to is meaningless.
> 
> I've never understood this slavish devotion to the UN and its proclamations.


Nor I the slavish devotion to the US and its proclamations


----------



## SG_67

^ As evidenced by your chosen place of residence. Trust me, no one is holding his breath awaiting your decision on what is proper and improper.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Justonemore was right then, and pretty much as quickly as he imagined!
> I assume, then, that the UN only has relevance when it is carrying out the wishes of the US, otherwise it is meaningless?


No, the UN is always meaningless.

Remember when the appearance of conflict of interest was a conflict of interest??

Ban Ki-Moon Travelled to Mideast on Flight Financed by Hamas Backer Qatar _by_  TheTower.org Staff  | 07.22.14 9:53 am 
 United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon flew to Cairo on a Qatari-chartered plane, _Newsweek_ reported Monday.
Accepting the flight from Qatar, which sponsors the terrorist organization Hamas, puts Ban in a compromised position. _Newsweek_ notes that when he condemned the Israeli efforts to defend itself from Hamas rockets on Sunday, it marked "the first time in two weeks that Ban did not mention rocket or other attacks against Israelis."
Aside from coloring Ban's statements, his coziness with Qatar also threatens his ability to arrange a long-term ceasefire that would effectively restrain Hamas.
Ban's choice of Qatar as the first Middle East capital on his trip has raised eyebrows in the region. Egypt, in particular, has bitterly criticized what Cairo's foreign minister, Sameh Shukri, has called Qatar's "conspiring" - along with Hamas and its other regional ally, Turkey - against Egyptian attempts to broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
The US has made clear in recent days it sees Egypt as the only viable mediator, and toward that end Secretary of State John Kerry landed in Cairo Monday. Dujarric said that Ban, too, supports Egypt's attempts to arrange the negotiations. "Obviously, I think the focus here is on supporting Egypt's leadership in mediating a durable ceasefire," he said. "No one is questioning Egypt's leadership in this effort."​ Ban's acceptance of the flight is one more in a series of scandals that calls into question the UN's neutrality in the conflict between Israel and the Gaza-based terror organization. Last week it was reported that the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA) handed over twenty missiles it found near one of its schools back to Hamas.

https://www.thetower.org/0750-ban-k...ast-on-flight-financed-by-hamas-backer-qatar/

Those were the days!!


----------



## justonemore

SG_67 said:


> ^ As evidenced by your chosen place of residence. Trust me, no one is holding his breath awaiting your decision on what is proper and improper.


Another personal insult from the biggest of the boohooers.... I guess when you got nothing else, you have to sink somewhere.


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> The U.S. carries out U.S. wishes. What the UN agrees or does not agree to is meaningless.
> 
> I've never understood this slavish devotion to the UN and its proclamations.


Exactly, "might is right", unless another country says so.
Without the "slavish devotion" to the UN and its proclamations Israel wouldn't exist. Israel's legal existence is based on the UN, which the US backed, yet now the UN is irrelevant.
The whole point of the UN, and the LofN before it was to prevent war, to ensure that countries could collectively solve problems without resorting to violence. The US were, of course, one of the founders of the UN.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Without the "slavish devotion" to the UN and its proclamations Israel wouldn't exist. Israel's legal existence is based on the UN,


Ah yes, here in the US we hold these truths to be self evident.

That we are endowed by the U.N. with certain unalienable rights.

:crazy:


----------



## justonemore

Chouan said:


> Exactly, "might is right", unless another country says so.
> Without the "slavish devotion" to the UN and its proclamations Israel wouldn't exist. Israel's legal existence is based on the UN, which the US backed, yet now the UN is irrelevant.
> The whole point of the UN, and the LofN before it was to prevent war, to ensure that countries could collectively solve problems without resorting to violence. The US were, of course, one of the founders of the UN.


We are just all Tools for our Israeli masters. Give them a country, aid them, furnish them with a military, defend their rights, cut them a big fat welfare check (at the cost of your own résidents). As long as it's going Israel's way, the U.N. is A ok. Of course when it's time for a bit of critism the Global community that has put them on the map should be ignored. Kind of like a teenager (but with less responsibility).


----------



## justonemore

WouldaShoulda said:


> Ah yes, here in the US we hold these truths to be self evident.
> 
> That we are endowed by the U.N. with certain unalienable rights.
> 
> :crazy:


At the rate the U.S. is going, you will probably need the U.N. to step in to guarantee you you're unalienable rights in the not too distant future. :confused2:


----------



## WouldaShoulda

justonemore said:


> At the rate the U.S. is going, you will probably need the U.N. to step in to guarantee you you're unalienable rights in the not too distant future. :confused2:


That's what the second amendment is for.


----------



## justonemore

WouldaShoulda said:


> That's what the second amendment is for.


Good luck taking on the U.S. military with your Mossberg Pump Action and that Colt 1911 in nightstand....Even if you managed to get large groups of firearm owners together, you would still be outmanned, outgunned, outmaneuvered, outsupplied, etc.... Any revolution in the U.S. would be shorter and bloodier than anything we see coming out of Ukraine or Sryia. And there is no doubt that the U.S. government would be the victors over any "opposition" groups. :teacha:


----------



## Kingstonian

Where is the meshugener from Oregon?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

justonemore said:


> Good luck taking on the U.S. military with your Mossberg Pump Action and that Colt 1911 in nightstand....


Both of which are more reliable than the corrupted UN.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> Where is the meshugener from Oregon?


Now I'm really getting schpilkus!


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> Ah yes, here in the US we hold these truths to be self evident.
> 
> That we are endowed by the U.N. with certain unalienable rights.
> 
> :crazy:


Curious that might is right as long as what is being done suits the US; obviously a repressive racist state that oppresses a minority on the grounds of racial superiority could be seen as a "bad thing". Like apartheid South Africa, for example. On the other hand, an oppressive racist state that oppresses a minority on the grounds of racial superiority that is friends with the US, indeed is funded by the US, is clearly a "good thing".
So, no moral compass, as it were, good and bad has no intrinsic value.
So, for example, Venezuelan policies which can be seen as oppressive, and indeed are oppressive, are bad, because Venezuela is America's enemy. Whereas Cuban oppressive policies, which were indeed oppressive, under Batista were good, because Batista's Cuba was America's friend.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Curious that might is right as long as what is being done suits the US; obviously a repressive racist state that oppresses a minority on the grounds of racial superiority could be seen as a "bad thing". Like apartheid South Africa, for example. On the other hand, an oppressive racist state that oppresses a minority on the grounds of racial superiority that is friends with the US, indeed is funded by the US, is clearly a "good thing".
> So, no moral compass, as it were, good and bad has no intrinsic value.
> 
> So, for example, Venezuelan policies which can be seen as oppressive, and indeed are oppressive, are bad, because Venezuela is America's enemy. Whereas Cuban oppressive policies, which were indeed oppressive, under Batista were good, because Batista's Cuba was America's friend.


1) Black South Africans bombarded White population centers with rockets??

2) If all oppressive policies where equal, you'd have a point. But they aren't, so you don't.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> 1) Black South Africans bombarded White population centers with rockets??
> 
> 2) If all oppressive policies where equal, you'd have a point. But they aren't, so you don't.


Maybe the real point he is making is that realpolitik trumps rhetoric?

Which it does in this instance.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> 1) Black South Africans bombarded White population centers with rockets??
> 
> 2) If all oppressive policies where equal, you'd have a point. But they aren't, so you don't.


But Israel oppressed the Palestinians long before they started firing rockets.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> But Israel oppressed the Palestinians long before they started firing rockets.


White South Africans oppressed Black South Africans long before they never started firing rockets.

Black South Africans eventually and rightfully gained internal and international sympathy and apartheid was ended.

Fears of White South Africans being slaughtered by Black South Africans proved false and unwarranted.

How far down this idiotic incomparable road must one go??


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Fears of White South Africans being slaughtered proved false.


Did they? Try telling that to the Afrikaaner farmers.

https://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Black South Africans eventually and rightfully gained internal and international sympathy and apartheid was ended.


The revolution in Portugal in 1974 led to the collapse of their colonies in Mozambique and Angola. They were South Africa's neighbours. Then Rhodesia fell.

So I would say "sympathy" had less to do with it, than ongoing change in the region making the apartheid regime untenable. The writing was on the wall.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> White South Africans oppressed Black South Africans long before they never started firing rockets.


Let's be clear though, Israel's racist oppression of its minority started long before any rockets were fired.



WouldaShoulda said:


> How far down this idiotic incomparable road must one go??


Yes, you're right, of course. There really is no point in comparing Israel's racist oppression to any other country's racist oppression of minorities. The idea that in our modern age, in our post-war world, that any other country, especially any democratic country, could deny equal rights to its citizens on the basis of race is so far fetched as to be ridiculous.


----------



## SG_67

Chouan said:


> Let's be clear though, Israel's racist oppression of its minority started long before any rockets were fired.
> 
> Yes, you're right, of course. There really is no point in comparing Israel's racist oppression to any other country's racist oppression of minorities. The idea that in our modern age, in our post-war world, that any other country, especially any democratic country, could deny equal rights to its citizens on the basis of race is so far fetched as to be ridiculous.


You're right...Israeli Arabs are treated differently. They're not required to serve in the IDF.

Otherwise under the constitution they enjoy full rights including voting and even hold seats, albeit a minority, in the Kennesett.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> The idea that in our modern age, in our post-war world, that any other country, especially any democratic country, could deny equal rights to its citizens on the basis of race is so far fetched as to be ridiculous.


Israel is a Jewish State. It does not deny equal rights to its citizens on the basis of race.

It may, however, deny citizenship to non-Jews.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Did they? Try telling that to the Afrikaaner farmers.
> 
> https://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html


Thanks.

Obviously under reported here and elsewhere.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Israel is a Jewish State. It does not deny equal rights to its citizens on the basis of race.
> 
> It may, however, deny citizenship to non-Jews.


Or Jews who are the wrong colour for that matter

https://www.irinnews.org/report/94819/israel-the-tribulations-of-being-an-ethiopian-jew


----------



## SG_67

Any country has a right to grant or dent citizenship to anyone applying for it.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> You're right...Israeli Arabs are treated differently. They're not required to serve in the IDF.


Neither are Orthodox Jews for that matter which annoys some other Jews.

However, given the number of Palestinians in Israel and it's bantustans exceeds the number of Jews, I would expect greater political representation for thePalestinians. Gerrymandering will not work forever.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> Any country has a right to grant or dent citizenship to anyone applying for it.


So much for a "Homeland for the Jews" claim then.

They just seem to make it up as they go along...


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Gerrymandering will not work forever.


Gerrymandering is still going strong here in the US and there is no sign of it stopping!!


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Gerrymandering is still going strong here in the US and there is no sign of it stopping!!


So that means it is OK then?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Or Jews who are the wrong colour for that matter
> 
> https://www.irinnews.org/report/94819/israel-the-tribulations-of-being-an-ethiopian-jew


Did you read this article??



> TEL AVIV, 9 February 2012 (IRIN) - Growing up in Israel, Shay Sium became accustomed to being called a "******".
> 
> Sium, 32, has lived in Israel most of his life, but says he and other Ethiopian Jews are treated differently from other Israelis: factories do not want to employ them; landlords refuse them; and certain schools turn away their children.
> 
> "The word discrimination doesn't describe what we experience. There is another word for it: racism. It is a shame that we still have to use this word today," he told IRIN.
> 
> An estimated 125,000 Ethiopian Jews live in Israel, but while they are supposed to be full citizens with equal rights, their community has continued to face widespread discrimination and socio-economic difficulties, according to its leaders.


Ethiopian Jews are citizens but face discrimination by other citizens.


> In 2009, a young Ethiopian-Israeli university student named Idano tried to board a bus in Rishon LeZion city.
> 
> "She knocked, but the driver wouldn't let her in," Keshet said. "When he opened the door for someone else, she followed inside, whereupon the driver said: 'Can't you see I am not taking black people. Did you have buses in Ethiopia, or even shoes?'"
> 
> The driver eventually appeared before a disciplinary hearing and was fined 20,000 New Israeli Shekels (NIS, US$5,330) in 2010. The next year, a magistrate's court ordered him to pay Idano 60,000 NIS ($15,980) in compensation.


And when it is determined they are treated unjustly, the wrongdoers are punished.

?????


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> So that means it is OK then?


No, it just means it may go on forever!!


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> Israel is a Jewish State. It does not deny equal rights to its citizens on the basis of race.
> 
> It may, however, deny citizenship to non-Jews.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that one has to be born a Jew. If one has to be born a Jew that makes being Jewish a matter of birth, as well as religion. Therefore being Jewish is to do with race. Therefore Israel's refusal to grant equal rights to non-Jews is racist.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Did you read this article??
> 
> Ethiopian Jews are citizens but face discrimination by other citizens.
> 
> And when it is determined they are treated unjustly, the wrongdoers are punished.
> 
> ?????


Are you aware of the efforts by Israel to sterilise Ethiopian women without their knowledge/consent?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/30/forced-contraception-jewish-ethopian-women

Ever get the feeling you are not wanted?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong,


You are wrong, Sir!!


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Are you aware of the efforts by Israel to sterilise Ethiopian women without their knowledge/consent?
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/30/forced-contraception-jewish-ethopian-women
> 
> Ever get the feeling you are not wanted?


When is the hearing scheduled??


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> When is the hearing scheduled??


I think they just have to put up with it with no redress. It seems some of them were refused entry if they did not agree to the procedure.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> You are wrong, Sir!!


An Orthodox Jew would disagree with you.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> An Orthodox Jew would disagree with you.


Fortunately, the Jewish State of Israel is more Reformed than Orthodox!!


----------



## Odradek

WouldaShoulda said:


> Fortunately, the Jewish State of Israel is more Reformed than Orthodox!!


Should be completely reformed.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

The biggest crime on this issue is the amount of global support Israel still has, from states as well as individuals.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Earl of Ormonde said:


> The biggest crime on this issue is the amount of global support Israel still has, from states as well as individuals.


Jesus!!

Are you changing teams AGAIN??


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

Never changed teams really. I was just throwing the idea out there as a thought that occurred to me i.e. that Israel is surrounded by enemies who want to see her total destruction, and so to a degree their form of "offensive" defence is understandable, while simultaneously being totally out of proportion to the threat and the ineffectual attacks they are facing. 

I think "Israel's" terrorism since the 20s is disgusting, starting with the terrorist murders of British soldiers by Haganah, the blind eye turned while Lebanese Christian militias massacred Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila, the Wall, and the total disregard for human and civil rights and the ignoring of every UN ruling aimed at them, and the current massacre of Palestinians.


----------



## Hitch

With any luck Israel can rid the world of a few more terrorists.


----------



## Kingstonian

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Never changed teams really. I was just throwing the idea out there as a thought that occurred to me i.e. that Israel is surrounded by enemies who want to see her total destruction, and so to a degree their form of "offensive" defence is understandable, while simultaneously being totally out of proportion to the threat and the ineffectual attacks they are facing.
> 
> I think "Israel's" terrorism since the 20s is disgusting, starting with the terrorist murders of British soldiers by Haganah, the blind eye turned while Lebanese Christian militias massacred Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila, the Wall, and the total disregard for human and civil rights and the ignoring of every UN ruling aimed at them, and the current massacre of Palestinians.


OK, picking up on this theme, I am interested in the early pioneers of Zionism, before Israel was set up, before Irgun etc.

I think there was possibly a decent crowd who did not want to go down the aggressive route.

Before the Jabotinsky, Ben Gurion philosophy took hold.

The grandmother in the "Defamation" documentary is a case in point. She says she was " a real Jew" and did not want to replace the existing people or take over their land.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjqN4dtbSOA

The kibbutz movement was also an idealistic, non-violent approach.


----------



## Kingstonian

Regev on the telly now.

He says Israel must be allowed to respond to attacks with a "surgical" response - or similar BS.

Then the interviewer points out Israel has Iron Dome so rockets have little effect.

But Gaza has no Iron Dome.

No answer from Regev.


----------



## Kingstonian

Hitch said:


> With any luck Israel can rid the world of a few more terrorists.


Ah Mr. Hitch...

We have been expecting you....


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

Kingstonian said:


> I am interested in the early pioneers of Zionism, before Israel was set up, before Irgun etc.


Well Haganah chose force as its weapon from day one. But pre-Haganah i.e. pre-1920, we only have to go back to the end of the 1800s to find the start of modern (as opposed to Biblical) Zionism, which grew up in the face of much antisemitism in Central and Eastern Europe as well as massive nationalist movements and nationalistic feeling all over Europe, which led to the pogroms in Poland and Russia, but then after the death of Alex II in 1881 the pogroms in Russia got even worse. The basis for modern Zionism was formulated by Theodor Herzl in his book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State) which was published in 1896. A year later Herzl called the first World Zionist Conference and the WZO was formed. Basically Herzl argued that antisemitism couldn't be conquered in Europe and that a Jewish state was an absolute necessity. Zionism, as I understand it from my reading was a very divided movement intially and only one of many that sought a solution, until Zionism became the strongest voice. But in the beginning you had the Labour Zionists who were socialists and didn't want Orthodox Judaism to be their guidebook, they came up with the Kibbutz idea. Then there was General (Liberal) Zionism, which was the bulk of zionism up to about WWI, Nationalist Zionism (basically racists, which came out of the non-religious far right wing Revisionist Zionism) and Religious Zionism (basically xenophobes).

The BIGGEST problem of all, across the years has been that MOST Jews have never supported any form of Zionism. Especially not the early view put forward by Herzl & his followers that Jews should settle in Ottoman Palestine.


----------



## Kingstonian

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Well Haganah chose force as its weapon from day one. But pre-Haganah i.e. pre-1920, we only have to go back to the end of the 1800s to find the start of modern (as opposed to Biblical) Zionism, which grew up in the face of much antisemitism in Central and Eastern Europe as well as massive nationalist movements and nationalistic feeling all over Europe, which led to the pogroms in Poland and Russia, but then after the death of Alex II in 1881 the pogroms in Russia got even worse. The basis for modern Zionism was formulated by Theodor Herzl in his book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State) which was published in 1896. A year later Herzl called the first World Zionist Conference and the WZO was formed. Basically Herzl argued that antisemitism couldn't be conquered in Europe and that a Jewish state was an absolute necessity. Zionism, as I understand it from my reading was a very divided movement intially and only one of many that sought a solution, until Zionism became the strongest voice. But in the beginning you had the Labour Zionists who were socialists and didn't want Orthodox Judaism to be their guidebook, they came up with the Kibbutz idea. Then there was General (Liberal) Zionism, which was the bulk of zionism up to about WWI, Nationalist Zionism (basically racists, which came out of the non-religious far right wing Revisionist Zionism) and Religious Zionism (basically xenophobes).
> 
> The BIGGEST problem of all, across the years has been that MOST Jews have never supported any form of Zionism. Especially not the early view put forward by Herzl & his followers that Jews should settle in Ottoman Palestine.


OK thanks. You also have religious anti Zionists who think Jews should not have a state.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

I'll never understand useful idiots like Lillian there or Cindy Sheehan. 

But I think using them is nearly as despicable as hiding terror weapons in schools, hospitals and among a defenseless population center of perpetual and professional victims.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'll never understand useful idiots like Lillian there or Cindy Sheehan.
> 
> But I think using them is nearly as despicable as hiding terror weapons in schools, hospitals and among a defenseless population center of perpetual and professional victims.


Much easier to dismiss Palestinian children as perpetual and professional victims eh?

Israel likes it both ways. When Palestinian rockets arrive they are a constant danger to 
Israel's people - despite Iron Dome intercepting them and little actual damage occurring.

Then when international airlines call their bluff and suspend flights to Tel Aviv they change their tune. Then there is " one in a billion" chance of a hit.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'll never understand useful idiots like Lillian there or Cindy Sheehan.
> 
> But I think using them is nearly as despicable as hiding terror weapons in schools, hospitals and among a defenseless population center of perpetual and professional victims.


I don't understand what you mean. But I'll try, do you mean that either side using a dissenting voice from the other side is not playing fair...or what?
Are you equating it to those cynical right wing parties with immigration as their main issue that appoint Asian and Black representatives?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Earl of Ormonde said:


> I don't understand what you mean. But I'll try, do you mean that either side using a dissenting voice from the other side is not playing fair...or what?


Not at all.

Poor Mrs. Sheehan and Lilian there are true suffering victims.

Their distress is real and has probably affected their ability to think clearly.

Let's review Lilian's comment.

"...I must say no...to a Jewish state *only* obtained through the suffering and blood of Palestinians."

Factually untrue, lofty and propaganda-like language like this cannot be taken seriously, regardless of the victim status of the person uttering it.

And to use obviously suffering and distressed people like this, like hiding weapons among the innocent, is despicable.

Dissenting opinions are fine, but let's limit rational arguments for a two State solution or what have you, without wheeling out those who have suffered like a sideshow.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Much easier to dismiss Palestinian children as perpetual and professional victims eh?


I'm not dismissing them.

Hamas, who cynically make targets of them to stay in power, dismisses them.


----------



## Odradek

Gaza baby rescued from mother killed by Israeli bombing.



> A premature baby has been delivered from a woman killed in a Israeli bombing on Gaza.
> 
> More than 800 people have been killed in Gaza since Israel launched its military offensive on 8 July.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

WouldaShoulda said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Poor Mrs. Sheehan and Lilian there are true suffering victims.
> 
> Their distress is real and has probably affected their ability to think clearly.
> 
> Let's review Lilian's comment.
> 
> "...I must say no...to a Jewish state *only* obtained through the suffering and blood of Palestinians."
> 
> Factually untrue, lofty and propaganda-like language like this cannot be taken seriously, regardless of the victim status of the person uttering it.
> 
> And to use obviously suffering and distressed people like this, like hiding weapons among the innocent, is despicable.
> 
> Dissenting opinions are fine, but let's limit rational arguments for a two State solution or what have you, without wheeling out those who have suffered like a sideshow.


Thanks, I'm with you now.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'm not dismissing them.
> 
> Hamas, who cynically make targets of them to stay in power, dismisses them.


It is Israel who "cynically makes targets of them". What civilised country ignores innocent bystanders when launching missiles? Especially when you are reacting to dud rockets.

Nobody believes Israeli propaganda now. People are also waking up to the fact that key American politicians are bought and paid for.

Kerry should demand a ceasefire or else, but Israel just ignores him and US politicians cannot force the issue as they would elsewhere in the world.

Greater Israel and collective punishment are the strategy here.


----------



## Odradek

Kingstonian said:


> Kerry should demand a ceasefire or else, but Israel just ignores him and US politicians cannot force the issue as they would elsewhere in the world.


Kerry stand up and tell Israel to back down?
Think again.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/newfound-jewish-roots-gave-kerry-a-deep-bond-with-israel/

The USA is a mere puppet of Israel. Pat Buchanan called it a long time ago.
'Capitol Hill is Israeli occupied territory'


----------



## universitystripe

Regarding world support of Israel:

I might be mistaken, but it seems to me that Israel is perfectly capable of handling such conflicts on its own. It may be surrounded, but it has the high ground. My $0.02.


----------



## Pentheos

No rockets = no offensive.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

universitystripe said:


> Regarding world support of Israel:
> 
> I might be mistaken, but it seems to me that Israel is perfectly capable of handling such conflicts on its own. It may be surrounded, but it has the high ground. My $0.02.


I hope by the high ground, you mean the Golan Heights and not the moral...


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

Pentheos said:


> No rockets = no offensive.


no wall = no rockets
no illegal settlements = no rockets
no illegal arrests = no rockets 
no police or military harassment = no rockets
no restriction of movement = no rockets
no restriction of employment = no rockets
no permanent ignoring of UN resolutions = no rockets
no murdering of Palestinians = no rockets


----------



## Pentheos

Imagine if the Palestinians embraced civil disobedience instead of a fatalistic culture of violence. They might then garner much more international sympathy, sufficient, perhaps, to achieve some goals.

All of the things you point to, "Earl", are a result of their embracing and celebration of violence.


----------



## Hitch

Earl of Ormonde said:


> no wall = no rockets
> no illegal settlements = no rockets
> no illegal arrests = no rockets
> no police or military harassment = no rockets
> no restriction of movement = no rockets
> no restriction of employment = no rockets
> no permanent ignoring of UN resolutions = no rockets
> no murdering of Palestinians = no rockets


No Hamas =no rockets


----------



## Odradek

Hitch said:


> No Hamas =no rockets


No Zionazi state = No rockets.

And, never forget, Hamas was started by Israel itself, a Mossad plan to counter the growth of the PLO.


----------



## Chouan

Pentheos said:


> Imagine if the Palestinians embraced civil disobedience instead of a fatalistic culture of violence. They might then garner much more international sympathy, sufficient, perhaps, to achieve some goals.
> 
> All of the things you point to, "Earl", are a result of their embracing and celebration of violence.


On the contrary, the things done by Israel have led to the violence. If there was no Israeli oppression, there would be no need for violence.


----------



## Kingstonian

Chouan said:


> On the contrary, the things done by Israel have led to the violence. If there was no Israeli oppression, there would be no need for violence.


Violence is a necessity for an expansive, tribal state like Israel.

"Greater Israel" will require violence.

The Oded Yinon plan to balkanise the neighbouring Arab countries will require violence.

Although it is often cheaper to buy an American congressman than a tank.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

Pentheos said:


> Imagine if the Palestinians embraced civil disobedience instead of a fatalistic culture of violence. They might then garner much more international sympathy, sufficient, perhaps, to achieve some goals.
> 
> All of the things you point to, "Earl", are a result of their embracing and celebration of violence.


Peaceful civil disobedience only leads to one thing over there - more brutality from the police and the military and the state authorities if you don't do what you're told. It's very easy for westerners to talk about civil disobedience from the luxury of a democratic country where everybdoy's rights and freedoms are fully protected by civil and criminal law. The Palestinians don't have such basic human rights.

Peaceful civil disobedience in Northern Ireland didn't work either, a classic example is the 13 peaceful civil rights marchers who were shot down in cold blood by the British Army in Derry in 1972.

All the things I listed have nothing to do with how the Palestinians behave, the vast majority of whom are peaceful, and go about their lives as such. They have to do with Israeli strategies.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Pentheos said:


> Imagine if the Palestinians embraced civil disobedience instead of a fatalistic culture of violence. They might then garner much more international sympathy, sufficient, perhaps, to achieve some goals.
> 
> All of the things you point to, "Earl", are a result of their embracing and celebration of violence.


And there you have it.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Earl of Ormonde said:


> It's very easy for westerners to talk about civil disobedience from the luxury of a democratic country where everybdoy's rights and freedoms are fully protected by civil and criminal law.


You think is was always that way over here??


----------



## Hitch

Odradek said:


> No Zionazi state = No rockets.
> 
> And, never forget, Hamas was started by Israel itself, a Mossad plan to counter the growth of the PLO.


You're right ,when all the NAZI collaborators ,aka Hamas, are eliminated there will be no need for violence.


----------



## Kingstonian

I suppose the good thing is that world is waking up to the lies and propaganda that Israel and its' US shills, like McCain, are paid to spout.

Now there is awareness.

What happens next will be interesting....


----------



## Chouan

Hitch's posts are interesting, in a way. Who knows what meaningless, or deliberately provocative and offensive nonsense he'll think of next!


----------



## Kingstonian

"Security requires more than walls and tanks. It requires alliances and support. *Yet every day Israel is seen to be battering Gaza, its reservoir of world sympathy drops a little lower. *And that is to reckon without the impact of this violence on Israel's own moral fibre. After 47 years of occupation and even more years of conflict, the constant demonisation of the enemy is having a corrosive effect: witness the "Sderot cinema", the Israelis gathering in lawn chairs on a border hilltop to munch popcorn and watch missiles rain down on Gaza. No nation can regard itself as secure when its ethical moorings come loose.

The only real security is political, not military. It comes through negotiation, not artillery fire. In the years of quiet this should have been the Israeli goal. Instead, every opening was obstructed, every opportunity spurned."

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-gaza-war-self-defeating-less-not-more-secure


----------



## Kingstonian

Chouan said:


> Hitch's posts are interesting, in a way. Who knows what meaningless, or deliberately provocative and offensive nonsense he'll think of next!


He might just be a very clever troll, playing the ignoramus.


----------



## Hitch

Kingstonian said:


> "Security requires more than walls and tanks. It requires alliances and support. *Yet every day Israel is seen to be battering Gaza, its reservoir of world sympathy drops a little lower. *And that is to reckon without the impact of this violence on Israel's own moral fibre. After 47 years of occupation and even more years of conflict, the constant demonisation of the enemy is having a corrosive effect: witness the "Sderot cinema", the Israelis gathering in lawn chairs on a border hilltop to munch popcorn and watch missiles rain down on Gaza. No nation can regard itself as secure when its ethical moorings come loose.
> 
> The only real security is political, not military. It comes through negotiation, not artillery fire. In the years of quiet this should have been the Israeli goal. Instead, every opening was obstructed, every opportunity spurned."
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-gaza-war-self-defeating-less-not-more-secure


This gets more pathetic by the day.


----------



## Kingstonian

Hitch said:


> This gets more pathetic by the day.


Actions have consequences. What goes around comes around...


----------



## Hitch

Kingstonian said:


> Actions have consequences. What goes around comes around...


 Right.You build attack tunnels and you draw fire, you use children as shields and people want to see you dead.


----------



## Odradek

Kingstonian said:


> The Oded Yinon plan to balkanise the neighbouring Arab countries will require violence.


So that's what it's called. I knew it was happening, but didn't know it had a name.
The toppling of the Iraqi regime and the attempt to split the country into three parts, the ongoing war to destroy Syria only Jordan's status as a US client state saves it. 
Yes, in effect the balkanisation of the nearby countries.
The Oded Yinon Plan.



> _Its two essential premises include:_
> 
> _- to survive, Israel must dominate the region and become a world power, and_
> 
> _- succeeding requires dividing Arab nations into small states - Balkanizing them along ethnic and sectarian lines as Israeli satellites, controllable satraps, the idea modeled after the Ottoman Empire's Millet (or nation) system under which local authorities governed confessional communities with separate ethnic identities._


Seymour Hersh revealed Israel's attempts to fracture Iraq back in 2004. The plan was for 3 smaller states. One Kurdish.

and from earlier this month...


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Odradek said:


> Seymour Hersh revealed Israel's attempts to fracture Iraq back in 2004. The plan was for 3 smaller states. One Kurdish.
> 
> and from earlier this month...


That was Joe Biden's plan too.


----------



## Kingstonian

Hitch said:


> Right.You build attack tunnels and you draw fire, you use children as shields and people want to see you dead.


Collective responsibility?

As a former lance corporal once said, "these wars build antisemitism"....

The old Jewish proverb "an eye for an eye".

He was not joking either.

He cleared out Eastern Europe.

Completely...


----------



## Hitch

Kingstonian said:


> Collective responsibility?
> 
> As a former lance corporal once said, "these wars build antisemitism"....
> 
> The old Jewish proverb "an eye for an eye".
> 
> He was not joking either.
> 
> He cleared out Eastern Europe.
> 
> Completely...


LOL By next week the revision will read Hitlerstein.


----------



## Kingstonian

Tailors and taxi drivers as well as "international hyenas".

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzSjSfFIQbM

Interesting to compare those times with today. USA is a fading power whose global role is drawing to an end.


----------



## Odradek

WouldaShoulda said:


> That was Joe Biden's plan too.


No doubt.
He's got his son on the job in the Ukraine now.
A country that Ukrainian fascist leader Ihor Kolomoisky 
Khazars coming home to roost?


----------



## Chouan

Hitch said:


> LOL By next week the revision will read Hitlerstein.


Hitch's unpleasantness and vitriol on this subject suggests, to me, that he's not merely a troll, but a Zionist stooge. He never replies to comments, in the sense of a rational response, just unpleasant remarks that suggest hate for anybody who doesn't whole-heartedly support the repressive racist regime in Israel. No arguments, no discussion. I know that he is famous for his pointless and fatuous one-liners, which obviously amuse him (although nobody else I suspect), but the particular unpleasantness that he has displayed on this and other related threads do suggest his anti-humanitarian stance.
I'll be interested to see how rational his response is to this, if any. I'm guessing another hate-filled yet pointless one-liner.


----------



## Hitch

I anticipated your drivel see # 94.


----------



## Kingstonian

Chouan said:


> I'll be interested to see how rational his response is to this, if any. I'm guessing another hate-filled yet pointless one-liner.


The one-liners may just be his best shot of course.

Either way, this is something of a detour from the original topic under discussion.


----------



## Kingstonian

Chouan said:


> I'll be interested to see how rational his response is to this, if any. I'm guessing another hate-filled yet pointless one-liner.


Contradiction ?

The automatic gain saying of whatever the other person just said?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

" I came here for an argument"

" I' m sorry this is abuse. You want room 34"


----------



## Odradek

Kingstonian said:


> The one-liners may just be his best shot of course.
> 
> Either way, this is something of a detour from the original topic under discussion.


They like it that way.


----------



## Hitch

> Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said today he is sorry for civilian casualties in Gaza, but he lashed out at Hamas, asserting the Islamic group that controls the Gaza Strip is purposefully putting civilians in harm's way while also attacking innocent Israelis with rockets.
> "We regret any civilian deaths but those lay entirely at Hamas' door," Netanyahu told ABC News chief anchor George Stephanopoulos on "This Week" Sunday. "Hamas is deliberately targeting our civilians; they've fired 2,000 rockets, 2,000 rockets at Israel cities. Seventy-five percent of our population has to be in bomb shelter alert of 60 seconds or 90 seconds. They're digging these terror tunnels from Gaza, from homes in Gaza to penetrate and infiltrate Israeli territory. They emerged and killed Israelis and run back or try and run back into their territory, so we've had to take actions.
> "What Hamas is doing very cynically is embedding its rocketeers, its rocket cashes, its tunnels - these terror tunnels in homes, in hospitals, in schools, and when we take action, as targeted as we can, they then use their civilians as human shields," Netanyahu added. "So Hamas is both targeting civilians and Hamas is hiding behind civilians. That's a double war crime, and therefore all civilian deaths as regrettable as they are fall on their shoulders."


 SOP in muslim countries.


----------



## Kingstonian

^ So a repetition of the "it's Hamas fault" blame shifting with a quote.

Here is what an independent body says :-

"Under international humanitarian law, all sides in an armed conflict must distinguish between military targets and civilians and civilian structures, and direct attacks only at the former. Deliberate attacks on civilians or civilian objects - such as homes, medical facilities, schools, governmental buildings - that are not being used for military purposes are prohibited and are war crimes. *Indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks (where the likely number of civilian casualties or damage to civilian property outweighs the anticipated military advantage to be gained) are also prohibited.*"

https://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-conflict-questions-and-answers-2014-07-25

No deaths from Palestinian rockets versus 900 plus deaths from Israeli attacks is disproportionate however you try to spin it.


----------



## Kingstonian

How to spin Israeli actions in a positive light

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...hat-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

Regev does not have much credence but financial and other threats to broadcasters usually means he gets an easy ride.


----------



## Pentheos

So the Israelis should endure random rocket attacks just because their indiscriminate nature has not _yet_ killed anyone? That's absurd. They are fully justified in flushing out their attackers. There will always be collateral damage. Yet, such damage can be minimized if belligerents do not shield themselves with human targets. Since Hamas does so, the blood of the Palestinians is on their hands.


----------



## Kingstonian

Pentheos said:


> So the Israelis should endure random rocket attacks just because their indiscriminate nature has not _yet_ killed anyone? That's absurd. They are fully justified in flushing out their attackers. There will always be collateral damage. Yet, such damage can be minimized if belligerents do not shield themselves with human targets. Since Hamas does so, the blood of the Palestinians is on their hands.


The notion of " collateral damage" is absurd.

The carnage is part and parcel of a continuous push to exclude Palestinians from Israel.

There is no peace plan.

There is no road map.

There is no two state solution.

These are just useful notions to have on hand when there is scrutiny of Israel.


----------



## Kingstonian

"Collateral damage" ?

"It's a hell of a pinpoint operation. It's a hell of a pinpoint operation." John Kerry


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> I know that he is famous for his pointless and fatuous one-liners, which obviously amuse him (although nobody else I suspect),


......


----------



## Hitch

Pentheos said:


> So the Israelis should endure random rocket attacks just because their indiscriminate nature has not _yet_ killed anyone? That's absurd. They are fully justified in flushing out their attackers. There will always be collateral damage. Yet, such damage can be minimized if belligerents do not shield themselves with human targets. Since Hamas does so, the blood of the Palestinians is on their hands.


Such basic logic is frowned upon on this thread.


----------



## Chouan

Pentheos said:


> So the Israelis should endure random rocket attacks just because their indiscriminate nature has not _yet_ killed anyone? That's absurd. They are fully justified in flushing out their attackers. There will always be collateral damage. Yet, such damage can be minimized if belligerents do not shield themselves with human targets. Since Hamas does so, the blood of the Palestinians is on their hands.


Yet, if peace is their desire, as you seem to think, why do they continue with the actions that cause the hostility? If Israel really wanted peace they would stop the building of new settlements on land confiscated from Palestinians. Only they won't stop because they don't want peace.


----------



## Kingstonian

Hitch said:


> Such basic logic is frowned upon on this thread.


Repetition of a flawed excuse is not "basic logic".

Even if you are trying to help the Israeli cause, clinging to a redundant argument smacks of desperation.

Your basic logic is also out of step with world opinion.


----------



## Kingstonian

Chouan said:


> Yet, if peace is their desire, as you seem to think, why do they continue with the actions that cause the hostility? If Israel really wanted peace they would stop the building of new settlements on land confiscated from Palestinians. Only they won't stop because they don't want peace.


OK, to move this on, for those of us who realise Israel has lost the argument, where do we go from here?

It seems to me that US will run out of money and influence in the not too distant future.

The 99% of American citizens will also realise that they are being well and truly screwed by special interest lobbies - not all Zionist. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q. ( succinct if crude)

China is probably being courted, but I am not sure they are as vulnerable to infiltration as the US.

I also think numbers trump money in the long run.

I don't know how it will pan out in the long run, but anything could happen.

What can Israel offer to buy off the Chinese? Not that China will worry about Palestinians. But it will not have a vested interest in looking after Israel either.


----------



## Hitch

The Islamic militant group Hamas controls Gaza. The U.S., Israel and the European Union all consider Hamas a terrorist organization, but the U.N. does not.
A week ago, UNRWA said that during a routine check, *it discovered about 20 rockets hidden in one of its vacant Gaza school*s, and called on militants to respect the "sanctity and integrity" of U.N. property. It said the incident was "the first of its kind in Gaza."
On Tuesday, UNRWA reported a second incident,* saying it found rockets hidden at a vacant school during a regular inspection*. "UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets," its statement said. "The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons."
The statement said UNRWA was looking at all possible ways to safely remove the rockets, and would investigate the incident.
Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird said in a statement late Wednesday that he was appalled to hear reports of the stockpiling of rockets in U.N. facilities. Baird called on the U.N. to launch an immediate independent investigation. "Even more alarming were reports that in the first case, officials with the United Nations returned these weapons to Hamas, a listed terrorist organization, once Israeli officials discovered their location," he said.
Ban has asked for the immediate development of a plan to safely handle any weapons found on U.N. premises, and told the U.N. Mine Action Service to immediately send people to deal with the situation of the missing rockets, Wednesday's U.N. statement said. "The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again," it said.

https://mashable.com/2014/07/23/u-n-rockets-school-gaza/


----------



## Kingstonian

Hitch said:


> The Islamic militant group Hamas controls Gaza. The U.S., Israel and the European Union all consider Hamas a terrorist organization, but the U.N. does not.


Hamas is the elected authority 
in Gaza - whatever foreign politicians are paid to say.

" One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

Of course, Israel does not want a united voice (Hamas and Fatah) speaking for Palestine either.

Divide and Rule.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Yet, if peace is their desire, as you seem to think, why do they continue with the actions that cause the hostility? If Israel really wanted peace they would stop the building of new settlements on land confiscated from Palestinians. Only they won't stop because they don't want peace.


Do Palestinians want these areas opened to them as well as those who came later??


----------



## Kingstonian

Either way, reigning down deadly missiles on a captive population, in response to dud rockets that have killed precisely nobody is disproportionate force.

Disproportionate force is a war crime.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Do Palestinians want these areas opened to them as well as those who came later??


Weasel words.

Are Palestinians willing to submit to land being stolen from them is what you really mean.


----------



## Kingstonian

'Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us , but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago , and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.' 




'Let me first tell you one thing: It doesn't matter what the world says about Israel; it doesn't matter what they say about us anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here on the land of our forefathers. And unless we show the Arabs that there is a high price to pay for murdering Jews, we won't survive.' 


David Ben-Gurion - first Israeli PM


----------



## Odradek

_''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
_David Ben-Gurion
https://www.nytimes.com/1987/07/12/books/l-ben-gurion-s-zionism-255687.html

The Ben Gurion quote is taken from comments he made to Mapai's central committee on December 7, 1938. This followed Britain's decision to deny entrance into Palestine of 10,000 German Jewish orphans in the wake of Kristallnacht, instead offering them asylum within Great Britain.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> Either way, reigning down deadly missiles on a captive population, in response to dud rockets that have killed precisely nobody is disproportionate force.
> 
> *Disproportionate force is a war crime.*


In a purely military sense, that is a ridiculous assertion. The degree of force used needs to be in response to the desired strategic outcome.


----------



## Hitch

I've got a Peace Plan. We send King over to Israel and he catches any rocket that makes it through the defense system. If is fails to explode Israel cannot retaliate.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> In a purely military sense, that is a ridiculous assertion. The degree of force used needs to be in response to the desired strategic outcome.


Might is right eh?

You might as well lift a thousand Gaza residents and execute them until the rockets stop.

Zionazi style.

At least you could avoid the "telegenic" ones that way.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> Might is right eh?
> 
> You might as well lift a thousand Gaza residents and execute them until the rockets stop.
> 
> Zionazi style.
> 
> At least you could avoid the "telegenic" ones that way.


Oh knock it off will you? I'm merely stating in a purely military sense, there is no such thing as "disproportionate use of violence".

In any conflict, one attempts to overwhelm his opponent in order to achieve the desired military and political outcome.


----------



## Hitch

According to Israeli sources, the information Yousef supplied prevented dozens of suicide attacks and assassinations of Israelis, exposed numerous Hamas cells,[1] and assisted Israel in hunting down many militants, including his own father.[4]

In March 2010, he published his autobiography titled _Son of Hamas.[5]__Yousef has since converted to Christianity and moved to California.[2] His request for political asylum in the United States was granted pending a routine background check on June 30, 2010.[6]_


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> Oh knock it off will you? I'm merely stating in a purely military sense, there is no such thing as "disproportionate use of violence".
> 
> In any conflict, one attempts to overwhelm his opponent in order to achieve the desired military and political outcome.


Well that is why we have rules of engagement and a Geneva Convention that civilised countries are held accountable to.

White phosphorous is banned too.


----------



## justonemore

Kingstonian said:


> You might as well lift a thousand Gaza residents and execute them until the rockets stop.
> 
> Zionazi style.


That's actually a great idea. Instead of watching & cheering missles, the israelis can gather and cheer exécutions. Seem to be right up their alley. The world may be horrified but there's always the U.S. veto in the S.C. and heck, why worry about the U.N. anyways when you're drawing a welfare check from U.S. taxpayers. They sure don't have to worry about weapon bans, the U.S. will ship them the latest and best free of charge. This way, not only do they get free miltary weapons but they can reverse engineer the technology and sell it onto China.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Weasel words.
> 
> Are Palestinians willing to submit to land being stolen from them is what you really mean.


 Palestinians want citizen rights in Israel but are not willing to grant the same rights to Israeli settlers??


----------



## Mike Petrik

Kingstonian said:


> Might is right eh?
> 
> You might as well lift a thousand Gaza residents and execute them until the rockets stop.
> 
> Zionazi style.


Speaking of Nazis:

https://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.607300?


----------



## Odradek

WouldaShoulda said:


> Palestinians want citizen rights in Israel but are not willing to grant the same rights to Israeli settlers??


Are you out of your mind?


----------



## Kingstonian

Odradek said:


> Are you out of your mind?


They call it " chutzpah".

Like the murderer who kills his parents and then asks for sympathy because he is now an orphan..

Top prize goes to the Zionazi minister who claimed Israel deserved a Nobel Peace price for "restraint".


----------



## Kingstonian

John Prescott has now labelled it a war crime



The trouble is the current generation of politicians are too mindful of their own comfort if they start admitting the Zionazis are war criminals.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Like the murderer who kills his parents and then asks for sympathy because he is now an orphan..


Or the loser that lost to his sworn enemy and would rather kill off every fellow ghetto dwelling loser with him, than see the victor succeed where he failed or live in co-existence and peace.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> Or the loser that lost to his sworn enemy and would rather kill off every fellow ghetto dwelling loser with him, than see the victor succeed where he failed or live in co-existence and peace.


That doesn't make any sense, I'm afraid. I assume that the "loser" in question is supposed to be the Palestinians, in which case you seem to be suggesting that the failure to co-exist and to live in peace is the loser's fault? If you had written "........... than see the victor succeed and continue to repress and oppress him, and continue to sieze more of his land and property at gun point, and deny him civil rights." instead, you might have been a bit closer to the truth.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> I assume that the "loser" in question is supposed to be the Palestinians, in which case you seem to be suggesting that the failure to co-exist and to live in peace is the loser's fault?


Exactly.

There comes a time when one has to accept defeat, sue for peace, and move on with one's life.

Or decide to be a vindictive, hateful, loser in perpetuity.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> Exactly.
> 
> There comes a time when one has to accept defeat, sue for peace, and move on with one's life.
> 
> Or decide to be a vindictive, hateful, loser in perpetuity.


If that were possible, I'm sure that the Palestinians would have chosen that option. However, even when they try to co-exist and "move on", as you put it, they are prevented from doing so. Or do you think that the ever-present risk of dispossession at gun point to make way for more new settlers, for example, is part of the process of "moving on"?

I would have thought that a people whose recent history included the denial of civil rights to a sector of its population on the grounds of their ethnicity would have been rather more sympathetic towards people who are now being denied civil rights on the grounds of their ethnicity, rather than having sympathy with the oppressors? Yet that doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> I would have thought that a people whose recent history included the denial of civil rights to a sector of its population on the grounds of their ethnicity would have been rather more sympathetic towards people who are now being denied civil rights on the grounds of their ethnicity, rather than having sympathy with the oppressors? Yet that doesn't seem to be the case.


I already explained, if the Palestinians had an MLK instead of Hamas, I probably would.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Exactly.
> 
> There comes a time when one has to accept defeat, sue for peace, and move on with one's life.
> 
> Or decide to be a vindictive, hateful, loser in perpetuity.


Hard line Israelis are certainly big on "vindictive and hateful" I will grant you that.

Permanent conflict would not seem to be much of life to most normal people.


----------



## Hitch

Nancy Pelosi appeared on CNN's _State of the Union_ with Candy Crowley, stuttered through a discussion on the Palestinians bombing Israel, and uttered one 
of the most inane statements ever:
_And we have to confer with the Qataris, who have told me over and over again that Hamas is a humanitarian organization.

Kinstonian in drag?

_​


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> I already explained, if the Palestinians had an MLK instead of Hamas, I probably would.


This appears to me to suggest that, if the Palestinians had a leader like MLK and an associated Civil Rights movement, I'm assuming that you could sympathise with them, but because they appear to be led by Hamas (an organisation set up by Israel to counter-act the PLO) you don't. Is that a correct assessment of your view?


----------



## Chouan

Kingstonian said:


> Hard line Israelis are certainly big on "vindictive and hateful" I will grant you that.
> 
> Permanent conflict would not seem to be much of life to most normal people.


Quite. "Vindictive and hateful" loser = bad. "Vindictive and hateful" winner = good.


----------



## Odradek

Kingstonian said:


> Permanent conflict would not seem to be much of life to most normal people.


They are not normal people. 
They regard themselves as being above the rest of us.

And as for "permanent conflict"; they like it that way.



> "Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adapt the strategy of provocation and revenge."


General Moshe Dayan

https://www.al-awda.org/quotes.html

Now an Israeli professor, and member of a "right-wing think tank", has proposed that the mothers and sisters of Hamas members should be raped. No kidding, he has really said this.
I know the Zionist love a bit of collective punishment but seriously.... And I doubt it will get reported by Wolf Blitzer.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israeli-p...thers-sisters-deter-terrorist-attacks-1457836
Israeli Professor: Rape Hamas Militants' Mothers and Sisters to Deter Terrorist Attacks


> An Israeli academic has claimed that raping wives and mothers of Palestinian Hamas militants is the only thing that could deter further terrorist attacks.
> 
> The remarks by renowned Middle East scholar Mordechai Kedar of Bar-Ilan University were made three weeks ago after the grim discovery of the bodies of the three kidnapped Israeli teenagers, but the recording was published online (in Hebrew) on Monday.


https://forward.com/articles/202558/israeli-professor-suggests-rape-would-serve-as-ter/
Israeli Professor Suggests Rape Would Serve as 'Terror Deterrent


> (Haaretz) - "The only thing that can deter terrorists, like those who kidnapped the children and killed them, is the knowledge that their sister or their mother will be raped." This assertion was made by Middle East scholar Dr. Mordechai Kedar of Bar-Ilan University on an Israel Radio program. "It sounds very bad, but that's the Middle East," added Kedar, of Bar-Ilan's Department of Arabic.


And as for the three murdered Israeli teenagers, (remember them), it appears that they were not killed by "Hamas" at all.
*Israeli Police: Hamas not complicit in teens' kidnap
*


> And quietly, the retraction is made while the blood of Palestine flows like the Nile.
> 
> *The Daily Star*
> 
> _BEIRUT: The Israeli Police Foreign Press Spokesman, Micky Rosenfeld, appears to have falsified the Israeli government's claim that Hamas was responsible for the killing of three Israeli settler teens in June, by saying responsibility lies with a lone cell that operated without the complicity of Hamas' leadership._


https://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/M...eens-kidnap-israeli-police.ashx#axzz38bwnnCGn



> BEIRUT: The Israeli Police Foreign Press Spokesman, Micky Rosenfeld, appears to have falsified the Israeli government's claim that Hamas was responsible for the killing of three Israeli settler teens in June, by saying responsibility lies with a lone cell that operated without the complicity of Hamas' leadership.
> 
> The kidnapping and subsequent killing of three Israeli settler teens last month is considered to be a flashpoint for the escalated violence in Gaza -- that as of day 19 of the conflict has left 926 Palestinians, mostly civilians, dead.
> 
> At the time Israeli authorities placed the blame squarely on Hamas, with Israeli Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu saying "They were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by animals in human form. Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay."
> 
> Friday however, there appeared to be break in the official line when *BBC journalist Jon Donnison *tweeted a series of statements he attributed to the Israeli Police Foreign Press Spokesman, Micky Rosenfeld.
> 
> _"Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def[initely] lone cell, Hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership1/2."_
> 
> _"Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government. 2/2"_
> 
> The journalist then goes on to tweet a further statement from Rosenfeld which, given that Israeli authorities used Hamas' culpability as a pretext for its crackdown of the West Bank that saw hundreds of Palestinians arrested and several killed, could cast serious doubts on the Israeli government's justifications.
> 
> "Israeli police spokes Mickey Rosenfeld also said if kidnapping had been ordered by Hamas leadership, they'd have known about it in advance."


----------



## Odradek

Odradek said:


> So that's what it's called. I knew it was happening, but didn't know it had a name.
> The toppling of the Iraqi regime and the attempt to split the country into three parts, the ongoing war to destroy Syria only Jordan's status as a US client state saves it.
> Yes, in effect the balkanisation of the nearby countries.
> The Oded Yinon Plan.
> 
> Seymour Hersh revealed Israel's attempts to fracture Iraq back in 2004. The plan was for 3 smaller states. One Kurdish.
> 
> and from earlier this month...


All going according to plan then...
*Iraq is already splitting into three states
*https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...BlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatoday-newstopstories


----------



## Odradek

Pentheos said:


> So the Israelis should endure random rocket attacks just because their indiscriminate nature has not _yet_ killed anyone? That's absurd. They are fully justified in flushing out their attackers. There will always be collateral damage. Yet, such damage can be minimized if belligerents do not shield themselves with human targets. Since Hamas does so, the blood of the Palestinians is on their hands.


Is it any wonder the American posters on this thread are so tragically ill-informed when this is what they see on the TV news.

*CBS Host: Palestinians Force Israel to Kill Kids*


> Recent controversies over coverage of Gaza suggest that reporters can get into trouble over appearing too sympathetic to Palestinians (NBC's Ayman Mohyeldin) or too critical of some Israelis (CNN's Diana Magnay).
> 
> But some opinions are perfectly acceptable. On his July 27 show, CBS Face the Nation host Bob Schieffer went on a rant about Palestinians:
> 
> _In the Middle East, the Palestinian people find themselves in the grip of a terrorist group that has embarked on a strategy to get its own children killed in order to build sympathy for its cause, a strategy that might actually be working, at least in some quarters.
> _
> _Last week, I found a quote of many years ago by Golda Meir, one of Israel's early leaders, which might have been said yesterday. "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children," she said, "but we can never forgive them for forcing us to kill their children."
> _
> When he uttered these words, Israeli attacks on Gaza had killed over 1,000 people, the vast majority of them civilians, including several hundred children. To suggest that Hamas desires that Palestinian children be murdered is offensive and irresponsible in the extreme.


----------



## Kingstonian

Odradek said:


> They are not normal people.
> 
> And as for "permanent conflict"; they like it that way.


A sort of Millwall of the Middle East?

I went to Millwall once. It is fairly close to Civilisation (London Bridge).

They have a sort of peace wall that leads to the railway. Police ensure Millwall and away fans are kept separate and get on different trains. It was even worse at the Old Den.

" We are Millwall,
Super Millwall,
No one likes us,
We don't care."


----------



## Shaver

Kingstonian said:


> A sort of Millwall of the Middle East?
> 
> I went to Millwall once. It is fairly close to Civilisation (London Bridge).
> 
> They have a sort of peace wall that leads to the railway. Police ensure Millwall and away fans are kept separate and get on different trains. It was even worse at the Old Den.
> 
> " We are Millwall,
> Super Millwall,
> No one likes us,
> We don't care."


I have visited Millwall as an away supporter (even worse - a Leeds away supporter!). It is a seething cauldron of hate. :icon_pale:


----------



## Kingstonian

Shaver said:


> I have visited Millwall as an away supporter (even worse - a Leeds away supporter!). It is a seething cauldron of hate. :icon_pale:


New IDF uniform ?


----------



## Shaver

Kingstonian said:


> New IDF uniform ?


:biggrin:

I passed an anti-Israel rally in Manchester city centre on Saturday morning. They were a rowdy foul mouthed bunch.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Quite. "Vindictive and hateful" loser = bad. "Vindictive and hateful" winner = good.


While good does not always triumph over evil, I than God that it has most of the time.


----------



## Odradek

WouldaShoulda said:


> While good does not always triumph over evil, I than God that it has most of the time.


I trust you're hoping for Israel's demise so.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Odradek said:


> I trust you're hoping for Israel's demise so.


Clever. <rolleyes>


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> While good does not always triumph over evil, I than God that it has most of the time.


Was I correct in my assumption of your view point? Post No.146. It wasn't a rhetorical question. You can, of course, choose not to answer, which itself will be an answer.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> While good does not always triumph over evil, I than God that it has most of the time.


Curiously enough, Irgun terrorism triumphed. The leader of the Irgun, the man who was in charge when the Irgun carried out its mass murders and rapes, subsequently became Israel's Prime Minister. He also ordered the commencement of the Irgun terrorist offensive against Britain, in 1944, whilst Britain was at war with Nazi Germany. Curious timing, wouldn't you agree? He ordered the massacre at Deir Yassin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_Massacre . I'm inclined to think that, in his case, good didn't triumph over evil.....


----------



## Kingstonian

Eleven Israeli myths about Hamas.

Plus a name for the policy of deliberately targeting innocent civilians - the Dahiya doctrine. Asymmetric targeting are the weasel words for this.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular


----------



## Langham

Chouan said:


> Curiously enough, Irgun terrorism triumphed. The leader of the Irgun, the man who was in charge when the Irgun carried out its mass murders and rapes, subsequently became Israel's Prime Minister. He also ordered the commencement of the Irgun terrorist offensive against Britain, in 1944, whilst Britain was at war with Nazi Germany. Curious timing, wouldn't you agree? He ordered the massacre at Deir Yassin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_Massacre . I'm inclined to think that, in his case, good didn't triumph over evil.....


Unfortunately the Jewish terrorists learned the basics of ethnic cleansing from the SS, and then went on to perfect the technique. That is the essence of the Israel story for the last 70 years.

On a personal level I know a number of Jews who are wonderful utterly charming people, and that is how I would prefer to think of the Jewish race, but Israel's treatment of the Palestinians disgusts me. I feel sure it will all come back on them like a boomerang soon enough.


----------



## Odradek

*
"Shocked" White House Slams "Fabrication" After Israel TV Leaks Damning Transcript Of Obama-Netanyahu Phone Call

*Israel's Channel 1 has decided to publish a Hebrew transcript of a portion of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and US President Barack Obama's telephone conversation which took place on Sunday, in which Obama was insistent that Israel unilaterally halt all military activities in the Gaza Strip. As is quite clear by now, Israel rejected, and the bloodshed continued.
The transcript, as shown by the Times of Israel was as follows:

The following is an English translation of the Hebrew account of the talk given in the report:



> _Barack Obama: I demand that Israel agrees to an immediate, unilateral ceasefire and halt all offensive activities, in particular airstrikes._
> 
> _Benjamin Netanyahu: And what will Israel receive in exchange for a ceasefire?_
> 
> _BO: I believe that Hamas will cease its rocket fire - silence will be met with silence._
> 
> _BN: Hamas broke all five previous ceasefires. It's a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel._
> 
> _BO: I repeat and expect Israel to stop all its military activities unilaterally. The pictures of destruction in Gaza distance the world from Israel's position._
> 
> _BN: Kerry's proposal was completely unrealistic and gives Hamas military and diplomatic advantages._
> 
> _BO: Within a week of the end of Israel's military activities, Qatar and Turkey will begin negotiations with Hamas based on the 2012 understandings, including Israel's commitment to removing the siege and restrictions on Gaza._
> 
> _BN: Qatar and Turkey are the biggest supporters of Hamas. It's impossible to rely on them to be fair mediators._
> 
> _BO: I trust Qatar and Turkey. Israel is not in the position that it can choose its mediators._
> 
> _BN: I protest because Hamas can continue to launch rockets and use tunnels for terror attacks -_
> 
> _BO: (interrupting Netanyahu) The ball's in Israel's court, and it must end all its military activities._


The White House immediately denied all of this, as did Netenyahu, but curiously, their denials are almost exactly the same, word for word.
And the Israeli TV station is not backing down, and is insisting on the veracity of the transcript, which it says it got from "a senior American official".

America's largest beneficiary of dollars and weapons just to Obama to like it or lump it, and America seems powerless to do any different.

Seems Ariel Sharon was right when he made that infamous statement to Peres.


----------



## SG_67

^ There's something very odd and unusual about a phone call like that and the wording used. 

I very much Netanyahu would have to explain to the president that Hamas "is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel." 

The tenor and tone sounds fabricated and lacks any depth or nuance that such a conversation would no doubt have.


----------



## Chouan

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment

They've also deliberately targeted Gaza's sewage treatment plant and the only power station. To what extent are these military targets?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...royed-israeli-airstrike-100-palestinians-dead


----------



## Kingstonian

Chouan said:


> To what extent are these military targets?


It is more like "state terrorism"

US funds it and Europe also chips in.

So rebuilding does not cost Israel anything - although it is their responsibility to run the place.

The objective is to keep the place just above a subsistence level of existence.
https://www.haaretz.com/news/diplom...made-sure-gaza-didn-t-starve.premium-1.470419


----------



## Odradek

Kingstonian said:


> It is more like "state terrorism"
> 
> US funds it and Europe also chips in.
> 
> So rebuilding does not cost Israel anything - although it is their responsibility to run the place.
> 
> The objective is to keep the place just above a subsistence level of existence.
> https://www.haaretz.com/news/diplom...made-sure-gaza-didn-t-starve.premium-1.470419


Careful now Kingstonian. Our Zionist overlords don't take kindly to such criticism.
In fact, they are trying to ban Europeans from protesting about their campaign of terror.
No, this is not from The Onion, this is real.

*Citing Holocaust, Israel Demands 'Strict Regulation' of Antiwar Protests in Europe

*


> _A new Holocaust is imminent, if one is to believe Israeli MPs, who spent the afternoon berating European officials about the growing antiwar protests across their countries, centered on criticizing the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip._
> 
> _Officials blamed "one-sided" media reports on the large number of dead civilians in Israel's attack, and *demanded* the European Union impose "strict regulations on the format and content" of antiwar demonstrations going forward._





> _Some of the EU officials present, notably Danish officials, insisted that they had a right to free expression that would be abridged by the proposed "regulations," but Israeli officials were having none of it, *insisting that criticism of Israel was anti-Semitism in and of itself*, and that "there is a difference between free speech and incendiary speech."_
> 
> _The Israeli proposal would see the creation of a Special Commissioner in the European Union that would empowered *to "monitor" antiwar protesters and restrict them from portraying Israel an "an aggressor" during its assorted invasions of Palestinian territory.*_


----------



## Chouan

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...al-no-more-outrage-indifference?commentpage=1


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Odradek said:


> And the Israeli TV station is not backing down, and is insisting on the veracity of the transcript, which it says it got from "a senior American official".





SG_67 said:


> ^ There's something very odd and unusual about a phone call like that and the wording used.
> 
> I very much Netanyahu would have to explain to the president that Hamas "is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel."
> 
> The tenor and tone sounds fabricated and lacks any depth or nuance that such a conversation would no doubt have.


I'm sure Dan Rather is convinced that's what they would have said had they said it!!


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

https://www.channel4.com/news/jon-snow

Jon Snow, one of the most respected telejournalists in the world for many years, provides a lot of objective feedback from his visits. Here is a selection of facts from his many blog entries and videoblogs.

FACT: The average age in Palestine is 17. 
FACT: A quarter of a million in Palestine of the 4.4 million population (West Bank and Gaza) are aged under 10.
FACT: The rockets fired into Israel have no effect, as the expensive US funded anti-missile shield "Iron Dome" stops them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

Also, all the injures to Israelis seem to be to IDF troops or people working for the IDF. For the whole of 2014 so far, up to 28th July, EIGHT IDF individuals have been killed by the rockets or other palestinian munitions.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'm sure Dan Rather is convinced that's what they would have said had they said it!!


Can I assume that, as you've posted three times since I asked you the question in post No.146 that you're not going to answer or reply?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> This appears to me to suggest that, if the Palestinians had a leader like MLK and an associated Civil Rights movement, I'm assuming that you could sympathise with them, but because they appear to be led by Hamas (an organisation set up by Israel to counter-act the PLO) you don't. Is that a correct assessment of your view?


That's not entirely accurate.

MLK did not deny the USA's right to exist.

MLK did not launch even ineffectual rockets into centers of population.

MLK sought and received support from all Americans and did not spew hate or propose a "Hate ******, they all done us wrong" campaign regardless of how poorly Black Americans were treated.

So I don't care what the Palestinian leadership calls it's self or who formed it.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> That's not entirely accurate.
> 
> MLK did not deny the USA's right to exist.
> 
> MLK did not launch even ineffectual rockets into centers of population.
> 
> MLK sought and received support from all Americans and did not spew hate or propose a "Hate ******, they all done us wrong" campaign regardless of how poorly Black Americans were treated.
> 
> So I don't care what the Palestinian leadership calls it's self or who formed it.


Then I was entirely accurate about your view. You approved of MLK's peaceful campaign and therefore sympathised with those being oppressed, whereas you are opposed to that of Hamas and therefore don't sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians because of the role of Hamas?


----------



## Chouan

https://www.hrw.org/video/2009/03/25/rain-fire-white-phosphorus-gaza

This was last time.


----------



## SG_67

Chouan said:


> Then I was entirely accurate about your view. You approved of MLK's peaceful campaign and therefore sympathised with those being oppressed, whereas you are opposed to that of Hamas and therefore don't sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians because of the role of Hamas?


I think one has to ask, when making such a comparison, what are Hamas's interesting vis a vie the Palestinian people. MLK seemed to represent the interests of the African American community and aligned his efforts with their interests. I'm not sure Hamas compares the same way.

Charlie Rose did an interview with Khaled Meshaal over the weekend. Rose asked directly if Hamas would recognize the right of the state of Israel to exist. Meshaal answered "no".

And therein lies the rub. When Hamas talks about the "occupation" they are talking about the entire state of Israel being an occupied territory. Regardless of the sympathy one may feel for the Palestinian people, the only answer that would satisfy Hamas (and again, I'm loathe to equate the interests of the Palestinians with those of Hamas) is the eradication of the Israeli state. They don't seem to be open to a middle road.


----------



## Kingstonian

What you will not be reading about in the media when Israel says Hamas are to blame for the deaths:-

https://imeu.org/article/the-dahiya-d...rtionate-force


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> I think one has to ask, when making such a comparison, what are Hamas's interesting vis a vie the Palestinian people. MLK seemed to represent the interests of the African American community and aligned his efforts with their interests. I'm not sure Hamas compares the same way.


Would you have argued, or do you argue, then, that Irgun was not aligned with the interests of the Jewish people?



SG_67 said:


> Charlie Rose did an interview with Khaled Meshaal over the weekend. Rose asked directly if Hamas would recognize the right of the state of Israel to exist. Meshaal answered "no".


As has been said elsewhere. Gandhi didn't recognise the right of Pakistan to exist either. Neither did the Indian government. They've managed to co-exist for the last 60 years though. Very poor relations and a couple of wars though border disputes, but they've co-existed. Iran doesn't recognise the right of Israel to exist either. When did Iran last invade or attack Israel?



SG_67 said:


> And therein lies the rub. _*When Hamas talks about the "occupation" they are talking about the entire state of Israel being an occupied territory.*_ Regardless of the sympathy one may feel for the Palestinian people, the only answer that would satisfy Hamas (and again, I'm loathe to equate the interests of the Palestinians with those of Hamas) is the eradication of the Israeli state.


Is that what they say or your assumption? During this particular aggression by Israel they've repeatedly called for Israel to cease the occupation of Gaza; they've never once called for anything more than that.



SG_67 said:


> They don't seem to be open to a middle road.


And Israel is? If Israel was they would surely have responded to the UN Resolutions, and the single main grievance of the Palestinians, the confiscation of Palestinian land and property for the benefit of new immigrants. They haven't.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> That's not entirely accurate.
> 
> MLK did not deny the USA's right to exist.
> 
> MLK did not launch even ineffectual rockets into centers of population.
> 
> MLK sought and received support from all Americans and did not spew hate or propose a "Hate ******, they all done us wrong" campaign regardless of how poorly Black Americans were treated.
> 
> So I don't care what the Palestinian leadership calls it's self or who formed it.


On further reflection, you appear to be suggesting that the problem lies with the Palestinian's choice of method, rather than with their oppression itself? If Black people in America had chosen a route of violence to free themselves from their oppression then they would have been "in the wrong" as it were? That they'd been denied civil rights wouldn't have mattered?
I know that you're not very good with analogies, but let's try this one.
Suppose a people, or some people, felt themselves to be oppressed by their government, that they were taxed without their having any political representation, for example. Based on your view, expressed above, they would have only been entitled to sympathy for their position if they had sought a peaceful means of addressing what they, or some of them, saw as oppression? If they'd armed themselves and taken a violent course of action you would condemn them? 
You would similarly condemn the French, Dutch and Belgian Resistance movements for using violence against their oppressors?
If this isn't your view, forgive me, but that appears to be what you've argued.


----------



## SG_67

Chouan said:


> Would you have argued, or do you argue, then, that Irgun was not aligned with the interests of the Jewish people?
> 
> As has been said elsewhere. Gandhi didn't recognise the right of Pakistan to exist either. Neither did the Indian government. They've managed to co-exist for the last 60 years though. Very poor relations and a couple of wars though border disputes, but they've co-existed. Iran doesn't recognise the right of Israel to exist either. When did Iran last invade or attack Israel?
> 
> Is that what they say or your assumption? During this particular aggression by Israel they've repeatedly called for Israel to cease the occupation of Gaza; they've never once called for anything more than that.
> 
> And Israel is? If Israel was they would surely have responded to the UN Resolutions, and the single main grievance of the Palestinians, the confiscation of Palestinian land and property for the benefit of new immigrants. They haven't.


I would urge you to listen to the interview with Charlie Rose. Draw your own conclusion then. By the way, Israel pulled out of Gaza some time ago. When the leader of Hamas says he doesn't accept the right of Israel to exist I don't think it's a huge leap to conclude what I've indicated.

And we're discussing Hamas. Let's keep it here and now and talk about the way the world is and not how it was 70-80 years ago. By the way, Irgun was widely criticized by many Zionist during its time. I don't hear much coming from the Arab world relating to Hamas. This is the problem when we talk about Israel. Everyone wants to harken back to a time that has long since past and is no longer relevant today.

If taken like that, of course there won't be an end. The history of the world is full of people going to war for land and resources. At some point one side wins and the other loses. Maybe they were too weak, too divided or just plain unlucky. As was mentioned by someone earlier, at some point the side that has lost needs to recognize this and settle for the best terms possible. The Palestinians need to move on and try to build some type of functional society and divest themselves of the notion that Israel will leave and they can go back to living as they did 100 years ago. They fought, they lost and now it's time to make their peace.


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> I would urge you to listen to the interview with Charlie Rose. Draw your own conclusion then. By the way, Israel pulled out of Gaza some time ago. When the leader of Hamas says he doesn't accept the right of Israel to exist I don't think it's a huge leap to conclude what I've indicated.
> 
> If taken like that, of course there won't be an end. The history of the world is full of people going to war for land and resources. At some point one side wins and the other loses. Maybe they were too weak, too divided or just plain unlucky. As was mentioned by someone earlier, at some point the side that has lost needs to recognize this and settle for the best terms possible. The Palestinians need to move on and try to build some type of functional society and divest themselves of the notion that Israel will leave and they can go back to living as they did 100 years ago. They fought, they lost and now it's time to make their peace.


How do they make peace when Israel won't let them? Israel reneged on its agreements last time regarding Gaza. Just because they didn't have soldiers on the ground in Gaza doesn't mean that it wasn't occupied. Gaza was blockaded by sea, air and land. How were the Palestinians living in Gaza supposed to "build some type of functional society" under those conditions? Every time that Israel attacks them they destroy more of Gaza's civilian infrastructure, and Israel are constantly seeking a pretext to have another go. The current aggression was predicated upon the killing of three teenagers by Hamas. We now know that not only did Hamas not kill them, but that Israel knew all along that Hamas didn't kill them. 
The Palestinians within Israel aren't allowed to "make their peace". They are subject to harassment by the Israeli security forces, have no real political representation, and no prospect of having any, and are always under the threat of property and land confiscations, at gun point, to make way for the building of more new settlements, despite these having been condemned by numerous Resolutions at the UN.
If Israel keeps behaving the way that they do of course there won't be an end! We have a saying in my line of work, "If you keep doing the same things you'll keep getting the same results." Israel won't learn.



SG_67 said:


> And we're discussing Hamas. Let's keep it here and now and talk about the way the world is and not how it was 70-80 years ago. By the way, Irgun was widely criticized by many Zionist during its time. I don't hear much coming from the Arab world relating to Hamas. This is the problem when we talk about Israel. *Everyone wants to harken back to a time that has long since past and is no longer relevant today*.


Including Israel. Even on this thread people hark back to the 1967 War to justify Israel's actions. Just because an organisation carried out terrorism 70-80 years ago doesn't mean that now it doesn't matter. If that was the case then what the Nazis did wouldn't be relevant either. It is, of course, and so is what people have done in the name of Israel. Nobody here, certainly not me, is arguing that what Hamas is doing is right, that firing rockets into Israel is right, but Israel's actions are also clearly wrong. The problem lies in the fact that Israel is only able to do this kind of thing because they are financed by other countries. Israel's economy could never support the level of military expenditure that Israel can sustain, so essentially, Israel is free to apply its aggressive military solution to the Palestinian question because countries like the US support them financially.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> The Palestinians need to move on and try to build some type of functional society and divest themselves of the notion that Israel will leave and they can go back to living as they did 100 years ago. They fought, they lost and now it's time to make their peace.


Israel pays lip service to peace but it is not a genuine aim.

They would prefer to extend their borders and remove Palestinians or pen them in with the sort of life that encourages them to leave of their own accord.

They try to mask this but it is more widely known. Dependence on rigged USA support cannot go on forever either.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> How do they make peace when Israel won't let them? Israel reneged on its agreements last time regarding Gaza. Just because they didn't have soldiers on the ground in Gaza doesn't mean that it wasn't occupied. Gaza was blockaded by sea, air and land. How were the Palestinians living in Gaza supposed to "build some type of functional society" under those conditions?


Their Egyptian or Jordanian cousins could welcome them with open arms.

Why don't they??


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Suppose a people, or some people, felt themselves to be oppressed by their government, that they were taxed without their having any political representation, for example. Based on your view, expressed above, they would have only been entitled to sympathy for their position if they had sought a peaceful means of addressing what they, or some of them, saw as oppression? If they'd armed themselves and taken a violent course of action you would condemn them?


Depending on the circumstances, yes.

Had only the Black Panther movement survived in the US, without MLK or civil disobedience, it would have been a huge disservice to all Americans.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Their Egyptian or Jordanian cousins could welcome them with open arms.





WouldaShoulda said:


> Why don't they??


The Zionist dream scenario.

Why would Egypt or Jordan want several million extra impoverished citizens?


----------



## Kingstonian

Analysis From an Israeli Jewish point of view. Not their American cheerleaders

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.608008


----------



## maltimad

SG_67 said:


> I would urge you to listen to the interview with Charlie Rose. Draw your own conclusion then. By the way, Israel pulled out of Gaza some time ago. When the leader of Hamas says he doesn't accept the right of Israel to exist I don't think it's a huge leap to conclude what I've indicated.
> 
> _And we're discussing Hamas. Let's keep it here and now and talk about the way the world is and not how it was 70-80 years ago. By the way, Irgun was widely criticized by many Zionist during its time. I don't hear much coming from the Arab world relating to Hamas. This is the problem when we talk about Israel. Everyone wants to harken back to a time that has long since past and is no longer relevant today. _
> 
> If taken like that, of course there won't be an end. The history of the world is full of people going to war for land and resources. At some point one side wins and the other loses. Maybe they were too weak, too divided or just plain unlucky. As was mentioned by someone earlier, at some point the side that has lost needs to recognize this and settle for the best terms possible. The Palestinians need to move on and try to build some type of functional society and divest themselves of the notion that Israel will leave and they can go back to living as they did 100 years ago. They fought, they lost and now it's time to make their peace.


The whole idea and Zionist justification for Israel is based on what happened in a time that's long since past. And if what happened literally thousands of years ago was relevant 70-80 years ago, then what happened 70-80 years ago is certainly relevant today.


----------



## Kingstonian

Here is another Jewish viewpoint.


----------



## MaxBuck

Were Israel to disappear tomorrow, most of the westerners (and many in the middle east) who oppose Israel today would soon wish fervently for its return.

Do I support all the decisions Israel makes in order to secure its own survival? Of course not. But I'm not so naive as to think the rules that apply to life in safe USA or western Europe would be sufficient to survive as a Jewish state in the midst of Islam. And the behavior patterns of Israel have been established as a result of horrors perpetrated against Jews for centuries, and most especially as a result of guerrilla warfare they have faced since their state was established, from Palestinians and other Muslim entities whose primary aim is to exterminate them.

The notion that we should criticize Israel for their actions while ignoring equal or greater offenses by Hamas and their "allies" (the term is a fluid one in the middle east) is ludicrous. Any criticism of Israel's actions needs also to consider the context in which they have been taken, and the precipitating acts of those Israel has acted against. I see very little such recognition by the anti-Israel crowd here.


----------



## Chouan

MaxBuck said:


> Do I support all the decisions Israel makes in order to secure its own survival? Of course not. But I'm not so naive as to think the rules that apply to life in safe USA or western Europe would be sufficient to survive as a Jewish state in the midst of Islam. And the behavior patterns of Israel have been established as a result of horrors perpetrated against Jews for centuries, and most especially as a result of guerrilla warfare they have faced since their state was established, from Palestinians and other Muslim entities whose primary aim is to exterminate them.
> 
> _*The notion that we should criticize Israel for their actions while ignoring equal or greater offenses by Hamas and their "allies" (the term is a fluid one in the middle east) is ludicrous.*_ Any criticism of Israel's actions needs also to consider the context in which they have been taken, and the precipitating acts of those Israel has acted against. I see very little such recognition by the anti-Israel crowd here.


The thread is about Israel's commission of war crimes. If you'd rather discuss Hamas then I suggest that you start a thread about Hamas.
I think you'll find that the context of Israel's actions, their persistent denial of full civil rights to Palestinians within Israel, and their occupation and control of Gaza, has been fully discussed. If Israel truly wanted peace rather than domination of the region then they could achieve it by following the UN Resolutions which Israel persistently ignores. If you cast your mind back a couple of weeks you will recall that Israel's operation started because of their claim that Hamas killed three Israeli teenagers. That's what Israel said at the time. Yet Israel knew, at the time, indeed, before the poor kids bodies had been found, that they hadn't been killed by Hamas. So they attacked Gaza under a knowingly false pretext. They then substituted the argument that they were attacking Gaza because of the occasional rocket being fired from Gaza, whilst ignoring the facts that Hamas had themselves, by their own actions, been able to dramatically reduce the number of rockets being fired in the months preceding Israel's attack. The rockets, like the murders of the teenagers, are pretexts and excuses to allow Israel to carry out the attacks that they were already planning, as part of their ongoing anti-Palestinian campaign. 
There is rarely mention of the numbers of Palestinians killed in Israel, by security forces and by settlers, in the weeks and months before the murders of the three teenagers. No meaningful investigations were carried out and no arrests were made by the Israeli authorities. What should the Palestinians do about that? Just accept it? Indeed, a settler shot and killed a demonstrator a couple of days ago, again, no arrests made.



MaxBuck said:


> Were Israel to disappear tomorrow, most of the westerners (and many in the middle east) who oppose Israel today would soon wish fervently for its return.


I would also suggest that, actually, the existence of Israel makes my life more at risk. The perceived and real support of Western Europe and the US for Israel is one of the motors that drives radical Islam's dislike of the West. Britain had no problems from radical Islamic terrorism until we supported America's invasion of Iraq and got ourselves embroiled in America's anti-Islamic crusade. Do you really think that America's massive support, political, financial, moral and military, for Israel has no connection with the radical Islamic view of America?


----------



## Kingstonian

MaxBuck says:-
"Were Israel to disappear tomorrow, most of the westerners (and many in the middle east) who oppose Israel today would soon wish fervently for its return."


^ Not so.

Jews who were so minded could live in the region but not steal the land and have an apartheid state.

The victimhood shtick is wearing thin now. Maybe blind "identity politics" prompts some of these excuses, but the rest of the world is aware of the reality.


----------



## Chouan

Another view.....


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Why would Egypt or Jordan want several million extra impoverished citizens?


Compassion.


----------



## MaxBuck

Kingstonian said:


> MaxBuck says:-
> "Were Israel to disappear tomorrow, most of the westerners (and many in the middle east) who oppose Israel today would soon wish fervently for its return."
> 
> ^ Not so.


Saying "not so" changes nothing. Ask the ruling Saudi family whether they want Israel gone. Ask secular leaders in Egypt the same question.

As for "apartheid state," this is yet another absurd analogy (though not nearly so absurd as the Nazi references). Palestinians living as Israeli citizens are typically far better off than those living in Islamic nations, and have voting and citizenship rights that South Africa never offered to blacks under Apartheid.

I'd also ask the anti-Israel crowd here to comment upon treatment of Jews in Islamic states; do you suggest their treatment to be less severe than treatment of Muslims in Israel?


----------



## SG_67

Like any complicated cultural or societal question there are going to be a range of opinions. Finding those Jews or Israeli citizens who disagree with the course their government is taken is not a matter of any consequence. The same as finding people here who disagree with a certain course of action. Israel is a democracy and if enough people were to feel that way, then they would vote the current government out and elect one that represented the majority view. In fact, they are a parliamentary democracy which means this sort of thing can happen quite quickly. 

As for the treatment of Israeli citizens of Arab descent, they have all the rights of any Israeli citizen. They are represented in parliament as well.

The mullahs from Iran would be more free to practice their particular brand of Islam in Israel then they would be in Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Kingstonian

WouldaShoulda said:


> Compassion.


Well that is certainly not an Zionazi trait.

They seem to be complete and utter .....


----------



## Kingstonian

MaxBuck said:


> Saying "not so" changes nothing. Ask the ruling Saudi family whether they want Israel gone. Ask secular leaders in Egypt the same question.
> 
> As for "apartheid state," this is yet another absurd analogy (though not nearly so absurd as the Nazi references). Palestinians living as Israeli citizens are typically far better off than those living in Islamic nations, and have voting and citizenship rights that South Africa never offered to blacks under Apartheid.
> 
> I'd also ask the anti-Israel crowd here to comment upon treatment of Jews in Islamic states; do you suggest their treatment to be less severe than treatment of Muslims in Israel?


You are living in cloud cuckoo land.

South Africa never attempted to eliminate/drive out its black majority.

South Africa was not expansionist. No new arrivals to South African were granted privileges, just because they happened to be Jews. Blacks were not expelled and then denied a right of return.

Jews lived in the Middle East for centuries with no trouble - before Zionism queered the pitch.

Take off your rose tinted Zionist spectacles.


----------



## SG_67

I am of the firm opinion that when people start referring to others as nazis or any other euphemisms suggesting likewise they are basically out of ideas.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> I am of the firm opinion that when people start referring to others as nazis or any other euphemisms suggesting likewise they are basically out of ideas.


I am firmly of the opinion that when people defend the indefensible identity politics are often at play.

Tribal loyalty.

My country right or wrong.


----------



## Odradek

MaxBuck said:


> xxxx


Then why say it?
Kingstonian, and other non-U.S. voices are only speaking the truth.

Israel is pure evil and the world knows it.


----------



## MaxBuck

Odradek said:


> Israel is pure evil ...


I'm at a loss to understand why what I said is grounds for a warning and this offal, along with the "zionazi" obscenity, is permitted.


----------



## Hitch

SG_67 said:


> I am of the firm opinion that when people start referring to others as nazis or any other euphemisms suggesting likewise they are basically out of ideas.


Shrillness is as much a requirement for the left as conformity.


----------



## SG_67

^ It's because when people are out of ideas they resort to invectives.


----------



## MaxBuck

I allow that people will disagree with me on Israel-Muslim issues, and have no problem with intelligent discourse with those who find Israel's positions untenable. Unfortunately the thread has become nothing more than a graffiti wall upon which anti-Israel fanatics paste insults and obscenities. It's shameful, and I'm abashed to share other interests (like the one I came to AAAC to begin with) with these people. I guess I just wish that, if my own objectionable posts are to be removed (and I don't dispute the appropriateness of their removal), those other screeds would similarly disappear.


----------



## Checkerboard 13

To all members posting in this (and all Interchange threads), please bear in mind that the Forum Rules apply to the Interchange in no lesser degree than anywhere else on the AAAC forum.

It might be wise for everyone to take a moment right now and refresh yourselves on the particulars of the rules we all are required to know and abide by, and to pay especially close attention to rules # 1 and 2.

While politics are allowed on the Interchange (though not on several other forums), profanity, insults, name-calling and ad hominem attacks ARE NOT.

The AAAC moderators purposely allow extra leeway on the Interchange, however it should be noted that what may be allowed might not always be the most becoming discourse.

Perhaps it might be of value to think of the Interchange as try-outs for the AAAC debating team. Unsubstantiated claims, insults and/or namecalling against one entity or another, parroting talking points or repeating the party line (no matter what party it may be) without examples or references, etc. will not win any debate.

The introduction to the Interchange ought to serve as a guide. A diligent application of intellect and wit is far more likely to make one's point as we "pleasantly discuss the great issues of the day that are not about clothes."

Please consider this post as moderation. It is not open for debate. It should however serve as a caution (and challenge) to all members to keep and aspire to the highest standards.


----------



## SG_67

maltimad said:


> The whole idea and Zionist justification for Israel is based on what happened in a time that's long since past. And if what happened literally thousands of years ago was relevant 70-80 years ago, then what happened 70-80 years ago is certainly relevant today.


Yet many others have found a way to move on. The French aren't looking to recolonize Viet Nam. Spain is not trying to reclaim its former empire in South and Central America. The French and the British are not fighting over Brittany or Normandy and even the Irish and the Brits have come to grips with their differences.

At some point people need to start to live in the here and now and think of the future.


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> Like any complicated cultural or societal question there are going to be a range of opinions. Finding those Jews or Israeli citizens who disagree with the course their government is taken is not a matter of any consequence. The same as finding people here who disagree with a certain course of action. Israel is a democracy and if enough people were to feel that way, then they would vote the current government out and elect one that represented the majority view. In fact, they are a parliamentary democracy which means this sort of thing can happen quite quickly.


Yes. The fact that the right wing hard line parties who carry out these atrocious actions keep getting voted in speaks volumes for the sentiment of the majority of the Israeli electorate. Chants of *"**There are no more schools in Gaza as all the kids are dead*" as people watch the shelling on big screens in Jerusalem.

"https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/gaza/10997123/Israel-Gaza-conflict-live.html"



SG_67 said:


> As for the treatment of Israeli citizens of Arab descent, they have all the rights of any Israeli citizen. They are represented in parliament as well.


You mean like Catholics in Northern Ireland under the Stormont Government? They can vote, but gerrymandering and electoral systems have ensured that they can never have a voice? 
Let's look at the other things that they can expect, which Jewish Israeli citizens don't expect: 
They can have their property confiscated at any time, without compensation, at gun point by the security forces to make way for new settlers, you keep forgetting that one, conveniently, it seems. 
They can face harassment at will from Israel's security forces, with no chance of redress.
They can be shot at any time by armed settlers, who will claim "self-defence" and not face investigation, so no chance of redress.
They can expect any public gathering, for whatever reason, will be treated with tear gas, in case they might be a threat to order, with no chance of redress.
They can expect to be fired at with live rounds by settlers and security forces if they demonstrate against the policies of the Israeli government, even if peacefully.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> Yet many others have found a way to move on. The French aren't looking to recolonize Viet Nam. Spain is not trying to reclaim its former empire in South and Central America. The French and the British are not fighting over Brittany or Normandy and even the Irish and the Brits have come to grips with their differences.
> 
> At some point people need to start to live in the here and now and think of the future.


1. You are referring to colonies that have been ceded not homelands.

2. It is easy to say live in the present when the status quo, "here and now" suits those making the request.

3. It is standard Zionist tactics to deny there is an issue, then say it is old news, then say move on. All the time annexing further territory and establishing "facts on the ground".


----------



## Chouan

MaxBuck said:


> As for "apartheid state," this is yet another absurd analogy (though not nearly so absurd as the Nazi references). Palestinians living as Israeli citizens are typically far better off than those living in Islamic nations, and have voting and citizenship rights that South Africa never offered to blacks under Apartheid.


You mean like Catholics in Northern Ireland under the Stormont Government? They can vote, but gerrymandering and electoral systems have ensured that they can never have a voice? 
Let's look at the other things that they can expect, which Jewish Israeli citizens don't expect: 
They can have their property confiscated at any time, without compensation, at gun point by the security forces to make way for new settlers, you keep forgetting that one, conveniently, it seems. 
They can face harassment at will from Israel's security forces, with no chance of redress.
They can be shot at any time by armed settlers, who will claim "self-defence" and not face investigation, so no chance of redress.
They can expect any public gathering, for whatever reason, will be treated with tear gas, in case they might be a threat to order, with no chance of redress.
They can expect to be fired at with live rounds by settlers and security forces if they demonstrate against the policies of the Israeli government, even if peacefully.



MaxBuck said:


> I'd also ask the anti-Israel crowd here to comment upon treatment of Jews in Islamic states; do you suggest their treatment to be less severe than treatment of Muslims in Israel?


Until the advent of armed, aggressive, expansionist and militant Zionism, Jews lived quite happily in the Islamic world. The Islamic world is where they went when they were expelled from Portugal and Spain, for example.
However, attempting to deflect the thread by saying "they did it to" doesn't mean that Israel aren't deliberately targeting civilians in Gaza. I would suggest that if you wish to discuss the Islamic world's treatment of Jews that you start a thread about that subject.
Then the "anti-Palestinian crowd" can enjoy justifying the deliberate targeting of children and hospitals.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/16/witness-gaza-shelling-first-hand-account
The Israelis have actually "apologised".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28344058


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

To whom it may concern

Name calling, xenophobia, racism, tribalism, religionism etc. are all a majopr part of the problem in the Middle East, so to start bringing them here on a discussion forum solves absolutely NOTHING!
So if all you can do is throw those kind of comments and insults around, go elsewhere!


----------



## Shaver

Un jour,
Un jour le diable vint sur Terre
Un jour le diable vint sur Terre
Pour surveiller ses intérêts
Il a tout vu le diable, il a tout entendu
Et après avoir tout vu
Et après avoir tout entendu
Il est retourné chez lui, là-bas.
Et là-bas, on avait fait un grand banquet
A la fin du banquet, il s´est levé le diable
Il a prononcé un discours :

Ça va
Il y a toujours un peu partout
Des feux illuminant la Terre
Ça va
Les hommes s´amusent comme des fous
Au dangereux jeu de la guerre
Ça va
Les trains déraillent avec fracas
Parce que des gars pleins d´idéal
Mettent des bombes sur les voies
Ça fait des morts originales
Ça fait des morts sans confession
Des confessions sans rémission
Ça va

Rien ne se vend mais tout s´achète
L´honneur et même la sainteté
Ça va
Les États se muent en cachette
En anonymes sociétés
Ça va
Les grands s´arrachent les dollars
Venus du pays des enfants
L´Europe répète l´Avare
Dans un décor de mil neuf cent
Ça fait des morts d´inanition
Et l´inanition des nations
Ça va

Les hommes, ils en ont tant vu
Que leurs yeux sont devenus gris
Ça va
Et l´on ne chante même plus
Dans toutes les rues de Paris
Ça va
On traite les braves de fous
Et les poètes de nigauds
Mais dans les journaux de partout
Tous les salauds ont leur photo
Ça fait mal aux honnêtes gens
Et rire les malhonnêtes gens
Ça va, ça va, ça va, ça va!

(Written by Jacques Brel)


----------



## Chouan

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politi...ition-to-israel-since-start-of-gaza-conflict/

Heaven forbid they should run out of ammunition. More expense for the American taxpayer......


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/us-firm-condemnation-shelling-un-school-gaza?CMP=fb_gu
Condemn Israel for the school attack and supply them with more ammo at the same time, talk about two faced, the US should change its name to JanUS. :devil:


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Kingstonian said:


> Well that is certainly not an Zionazi trait.
> 
> They seem to be complete and utter .....


The lack of compassion shown to Palestinians form their Muslim cousins is acceptable.

The lack of compassion shown to Palestinians from their sworn enemies which they vow to dispossess is unacceptable.

Sure.

Go with it.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel?CMP=fb_gu

Not even the sickest, most twisted, most extreme zionist should feel able to defend this latest outrage.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

Bolivia leads the way, and unlike the UK and US, shows some backbone and declares Israel a terrorist state! Well done Bolivia! 
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/bolivia-declares-israel-terrorist-state-299682688


----------



## SG_67

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Bolivia leads the way, and unlike the UK and US, shows some backbone and declares Israel a terrorist state! Well done Bolivia!
> https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/bolivia-declares-israel-terrorist-state-299682688


You mean this Bolivia:

https://www.hrw.org/americas/bolivia

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/bolivia

https://www.amnesty.org/en/region/bolivia

https://www.fsdinternational.org/country/bolivia/hrissues

https://inesad.edu.bo/developmentro...iolence-against-women-in-latin-america-chart/


----------



## Kingstonian

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Bolivia leads the way, and unlike the UK and US, shows some backbone and declares Israel a terrorist state! Well done Bolivia!
> https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/bolivia-declares-israel-terrorist-state-299682688


Meanwhile on the BBC today a minister could not bring himself to admit it was "disproportionate" force. He explained that disproportionate was an "emotive" term and then gave the game away by saying disproportionate force would mean a war crime had been committed. All this is code for he was not prepared to upset the " Friends of Israel".

On Newsnight yesterday the Dihaya Doctrine was briefly referenced - but then nobody watches Newsnight and they can slip the occasional admission in. Obviously, this is out of the question on News at Ten.

Normal service was resumed this morning. Israeli spokesman given an easy ride, then allowed to divert the question to a topic of his own choosing.


----------



## Odradek

Earl of Ormonde said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel?CMP=fb_gu
> 
> Not even the sickest, most twisted, most extreme zionist should feel able to defend this latest outrage.


But somehow they do, and condemn the rest of us.
Some sort of doublethink at work.

Criticism of Israel just does not compute.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> The lack of compassion shown to Palestinians form their Muslim cousins is acceptable.


Straw man. If you want a thread devoted to the lack of compassion in the Arab world, start one.



WouldaShoulda said:


> The lack of compassion shown to Palestinians from their sworn enemies which they vow to dispossess is unacceptable.
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Go with it.


You're happy to see your tax dollars being spent on killing sleeping kids? 
I should imagine that you thought Chivington and Carleton jolly decent fellows for sorting out those dreadful terrorists in the 1860's.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Earl of Ormonde said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel?CMP=fb_gu
> 
> Not even the sickest, most twisted, most extreme zionist should feel able to defend this latest outrage.


Article


> The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) said it was investigating the incident at the UN school. Initial inquiries showed that "Hamas militants fired mortar shells from the vicinity of the school, and [Israeli] soldiers responded by firing towards the origins of the fire", a spokeswoman said.
> 
> A UN source said there was no evidence of militant activity inside the school.


This seems odd.

Why would the UN say there was no evidence of militant activity *inside* the school when the IDF said Hamas militants fired mortar shells from the *vicinity* of the school??

That's not a denial that Hamas was intentionally firing rounds from the schools vicinity. And to what end?? In the hopes that the IDF would miss them and hit the school??

Not a defense.

Just an observation.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> Article
> 
> This seems odd.
> 
> Why would the UN say there was no evidence of militant activity *inside* the school when the IDF said Hamas militants fired mortar shells from the *vicinity* of the school??
> 
> That's not a denial that Hamas was intentionally firing rounds from the schools vicinity. And to what end?? In the hopes that the IDF would miss them and hit the school??
> 
> Not a defense.
> 
> Just an observation.


The UN people present stated, as you have said, that there was no military activity within the school, which of course includes the playground. Hamas fighters may well have been firing on the Israeli army near the school, but not from the school. It didn't make much difference though.

The Israelis have claimed and continue to claim to be able to hit targets in Gaza with surgical precision and pinpoint accuracy. They, apparently, hit their intended target with a small missile to warn the inhabitants of a forthcoming strike, so they say, to minimise civilian casualties. They knew exactly where the school was, and had been told that there was no military activity within the school grounds, and were able to hit it with pinpoint accuracy, I assume using the GPS data that the UN had given them. Rather like the children on the beach that they were able to target with pinpoint accuracy, even though they were clearly running away.


----------



## Chouan

Earl of Ormonde said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel?CMP=fb_gu
> 
> Not even the sickest, most twisted, most extreme zionist should feel able to defend this latest outrage.


I wouldn't bet on it. Look at Post 219!


----------



## Odradek

*Brian Eno condemns Israeli action in Gaza as 'ethnic cleansing'*
_The producer took to David Byrne's website to write an open letter, characterising Israel's military action against Palestine as a 'colonialist war' by a 'ragingly racist theocracy'

_


> The producer and musician Brian Eno has penned an open letter addressing the current crisis in Gaza, which heavily criticises the US government's backing of Israel and asks the question: "Why does America continue its blind support of this one-sided exercise in ethnic cleansing?"





> Eno then goes on to label Israel a "ragingly racist theocracy", and attacks the ideology behind Israeli 'settler militia' who target Palestinian homes. "Most of them are not ethnic Israelis - they're 'right of return' Jews from Russia and Ukraine... with the notion that they had an inviolable (God-given!) right to the land, and that 'Arab' equates with 'vermin'". Eno eventually compares America's financial support of Israel "like sending money to the Klan."


Fair play to Brian Eno.
Who else is willing to stand up and be counted?


----------



## SG_67

Odradek said:


> *Brian Eno condemns Israeli action in Gaza as 'ethnic cleansing'*
> _The producer took to David Byrne's website to write an open letter, characterising Israel's military action against Palestine as a 'colonialist war' by a 'ragingly racist theocracy'
> 
> _
> 
> Fair play to Brian Eno.
> Who else is willing to stand up and be counted?


Brian Eno? Why isn't anyone asking for Justin Bieber's opinion?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> The Israelis have claimed and continue to claim to be able to hit targets in Gaza with surgical precision and pinpoint accuracy. They, apparently, hit their intended target with a small missile to warn the inhabitants of a forthcoming strike, so they say, to minimise civilian casualties. They knew exactly where the school was, and had been told that there was no military activity within the school grounds, and were able to hit it with pinpoint accuracy, I assume using the GPS data that the UN had given them.


I may have missed that part of the article previously referenced.

Since the IDF was reportedly using mortars, any claim of "pinpoint accuracy" would be silly and meaningless.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

SG_67 said:


> Brian Eno? Why isn't anyone asking for Justin Bieber's opinion?


I'm not convinced anyone asked for Eno's!!


----------



## SG_67

^ It seems like he was joined by Javier Bardem and Penelope Cruz. That completes the Algonquin Roundtable I suppose. In a couple of weeks they'll move on to the next hot topic.


----------



## Pentheos

From the story in question:

"UNRWA has found rockets at three of its schools in Gaza in the past three weeks, which it has swiftly condemned as 'flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises'. Israel says militants from Hamas and other organisations launch rockets from the vicinity of UNRWA properties."

While I agree that it is a tragedy that children died in the shelling of a school, what is the solution to the fact that Hamas keeps munitions in the schools? How can Israel eradicate the rocket threat?

When the Hamas military hides behind children, no one should be surprised if the children are killed.


----------



## SG_67

Pentheos said:


> From the story in question:
> 
> "UNRWA has found rockets at three of its schools in Gaza in the past three weeks, which it has swiftly condemned as 'flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises'. Israel says militants from Hamas and other organisations launch rockets from the vicinity of UNRWA properties."
> 
> While I agree that it is a tragedy that children died in the shelling of a school, what is the solution to the fact that Hamas keeps munitions in the schools? How can Israel eradicate the rocket threat?
> 
> When the Hamas military hides behind children, no one should be surprised if the children are killed.




I think much can be explained when everyone involved recognizing that Hamas's interests aren't necessarily aligned with those of the Palestinians. Israel already understands this but for some reason the rest of the world seems to conflate the Palestinian cause with that of Hamas.

That's like saying the Latin Kings, a Chicago gang, are representative of the interests of Chicago and of Chicagoans.


----------



## Pentheos

SG_67 said:


> I think much can be explained when everyone involved recognizing that Hamas's interests aren't necessarily aligned with those of the Palestinians. Israel already understands this but for some reason the rest of the world seems to conflate the Palestinian cause with that of Hamas.
> 
> That's like saying the Latin Kings, a Chicago gang, are representative of the interests of Chicago and of Chicagoans.


I understand this. But Hamas governed Gaza for the last seven years, and are thus much more representative of Palestinians _en bloc_ than the Latin Kings are for Chicagoans.

My point was that belligerents are hiding behind children, and I wanted someone here to offer a reasonable explanation for how Israel should handle the situation. It's one thing to call "outrage" but quite another to suggest a solution to an intractable problem. Meir's words resonate, "Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."

Oh, and:


----------



## SG_67

^ there's no logic to the criticism. I suppose one option would be for Israel to roll over and capitulate. That's unlikely. 

Israel is doing what it can to prevent the deaths of civilians, but unfortunately in any conflict civilians are killed. It's sad but it's a fact which makes going to war so much less palatable. I realize there's an audience out there for this nonsense about Israel being blood thirsty and intentionally targeting civilians because the derive some perverse pleasure from it, but that notion is silly and unsupported. 

If Israel wanted to really kill Palestinians they would just carpet bomb Gaza instead of sending in ground troops. 

I believe Israel is doing it's due diligence in trying to prevent innocent deaths, but at some point a nation has a right to defend itself.

Edit: yes the Palestinians elected Hamas but they are a highly dysfunctional polity and Hamas at least offered them the basics. I'm sure they are regretting it now.


----------



## Odradek

SG_67 said:


> ^ It seems like he was joined by Javier Bardem and Penelope Cruz. That completes the Algonquin Roundtable I suppose. In a couple of weeks they'll move on to the next hot topic.


No they won't.
Brian Eno has a long and honourable history of speaking out against Israeli war crimes.


----------



## SG_67

^ there was a guy standing on the corner this afternoon saying the same thing. Something tells me he's not on David Byrnes's website. 

I'm not sure what the point is anyway. Crying foul over anything Israel does isn't exactly going out on a limb for those in the entertainment industry. Are we supposed to be challenged or surprised?


----------



## Chouan

Pentheos said:


> From the story in question:
> 
> "UNRWA has found rockets at three of its schools in Gaza in the past three weeks, which it has swiftly condemned as 'flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises'. Israel says militants from Hamas and other organisations *launch rockets from the vicinity of UNRWA properties.*"
> 
> While I agree that it is a tragedy that children died in the shelling of a school, what is the solution to the fact that Hamas keeps munitions in the schools? How can Israel eradicate the rocket threat?
> 
> When the Hamas military hides behind children, no one should be surprised if the children are killed.




I think that you'll find that "in the vicinity of a school" and "within a school" are not the same thing. Interesting to see people so desperately trying to justify Israel's killing of children.


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> ^ there's no logic to the criticism.* I suppose one option would be for Israel to roll over and capitulate. That's unlikely.*
> 
> *Israel is doing what it can to prevent the deaths of civilians*, but unfortunately in any conflict civilians are killed. It's sad but it's a fact which makes going to war so much less palatable. I realize there's an audience out there for this nonsense about Israel being blood thirsty and intentionally targeting civilians *because the derive some perverse pleasure from it, but that notion is silly and unsupported. *
> 
> If Israel wanted to really kill Palestinians they would just carpet bomb Gaza instead of sending in ground troops.
> 
> I believe Israel is doing it's due diligence in trying to prevent innocent deaths, but at some point a nation has a right to defend itself.
> 
> Edit: yes the Palestinians elected Hamas but they are a highly dysfunctional polity and Hamas at least offered them the basics. *I'm sure they are regretting it now.*


Straw man. Again. Nobody is suggesting that. Israel could try following the UN Resolutions and start treating Palestinians decently, of course, but that's unlikely.
Apart from deliberately shooting at them, vide the children on the beach, for example. Or shelling a school that they know children are inside because Hamas fighters were "in the vicinity".
Apart from the chanting and the Israeli spectators cheering reported earlier, which, incidentally, none of you Israel apologists have commented on.
Curiously Hamas is now more supported in Gaza than ever before and more Palestinians in Gaza are now supporting Hamas military action against Israel.


----------



## Shaver

SG_67 said:


> Brian Eno? Why isn't anyone asking for Justin Bieber's opinion?


Modern music owes a significant debt to the genius of Brian Eno, few artists have been so (surreptitiously) pervasive in their all-encompassing influence. Don't be knocking Bri!


----------



## Pentheos

Chouan said:


> I think that you'll find that "in the vicinity of a school" and "within a school" are not the same thing. Interesting to see people so desperately trying to justify Israel's killing of children.


Does "in" a school satisfy your need for specificity?

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school

Interesting to see people cling so desperately to their anti-Semitism. You're in good company with Hamas.

Back to the question I posed: what else is Israel to do?


----------



## Chouan

Pentheos said:


> Does "in" a school satisfy your need for specificity?
> 
> https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school
> 
> Interesting to see people cling so desperately to their anti-Semitism. You're in good company with Hamas.
> 
> Back to the question I posed: what else is Israel to do?


To quote SG 67 in Post 201, "_^ It's because when people are out of ideas they resort to invectives._"
I'm afraid that the tired old "anti-Semitism" trick doesn't work any more. Must try harder.

I suppose, however, that the use of that expression might be deliberate as a way of shutting down the thread.


----------



## Chouan

Pentheos said:


> Does "in" a school satisfy your need for specificity?
> 
> https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school
> 
> Interesting to see people cling so desperately to their anti-Semitism. You're in good company with Hamas.


I think that you'll find that this refers to a different example of Israel firing at schools and civilians. There are many to choose from.



Pentheos said:


> Back to the question I posed: what else is Israel to do?


I think that you'll find that I answered the question in Post 234. First line. It's easy to find.


----------



## Pentheos

Chouan said:


> I think that you'll find that this refers to a different example of Israel firing at schools and civilians. There are many to choose from.
> I think that you'll find that I answered the question in Post 234. First line. It's easy to find.


You can do better than that! As though Hamas hid rockets in only one school!

Once: https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school

Twice: https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/pres...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

Thrice:

Quote from the third link: "According to longtime Middle East analyst Matthew Levitt, Hamas has long planted weapons in areas inhabited by vulnerable residents. "It happens in schools," . "Hamas has buried caches of arms and explosives under its own kindergarten playgrounds," referencing a that said a Hamas leader was arrested after "additional explosives in a Gaza kindergarten" were discovered. For years, Hamas has "planned carefully for a major Israeli invasion,"according to a Washington Institute for Near East Policy report. In addition to an , there was the "integral use of civilians and civilian facilities as cover for its military activity; schools, mosques, hospitals, and civilian housing became weapons storage facilities, Hamas headquarters, and fighting positions &#8230; IDF imagery and combat intelligence revealed extensive use of civilian facilities."

Please suggest a realistic response to such a threat. (And please do so without a "I think that..." Vary up your rhetoric. ) Simply treating the Palestinians _nicely_ is not going to lead to peace.


----------



## Shaver

Pentheos said:


> You can do better than that! As though Hamas hid rockets in only one school!
> 
> Once: https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school
> 
> Twice: https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/pres...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools
> 
> Thrice:
> 
> Quote from the third link: "According to longtime Middle East analyst Matthew Levitt, Hamas has long planted weapons in areas inhabited by vulnerable residents. "It happens in schools," . "Hamas has buried caches of arms and explosives under its own kindergarten playgrounds," referencing a that said a Hamas leader was arrested after "additional explosives in a Gaza kindergarten" were discovered. For years, Hamas has "planned carefully for a major Israeli invasion,"according to a Washington Institute for Near East Policy report. In addition to an , there was the "integral use of civilians and civilian facilities as cover for its military activity; schools, mosques, hospitals, and civilian housing became weapons storage facilities, Hamas headquarters, and fighting positions &#8230; IDF imagery and combat intelligence revealed extensive use of civilian facilities."
> 
> Please suggest a realistic response to such a threat. (And please do so without a "I think that..." Vary up your rhetoric. ) *Simply treating the Palestinians nicely is not going to lead to peace*.


Isn't the very essence of peace a situation where people treat one another 'nicely'? :icon_scratch:


----------



## SG_67

Shaver said:


> Modern music owes a significant debt to the genius of Brian Eno, few artists have been so (surreptitiously) pervasive in their all-encompassing influence. Don't be knocking Bri!


I first became aware of Brian Eno listening to the Talking Heads and he is indeed a brilliant musical producer and artist.

He's entitled to his opinion but he's also entitled to the criticisms that may come his way based on his opinions.


----------



## Kingstonian

Shaver said:


> Isn't the very essence of peace a situation where people treat one another 'nicely'? :icon_scratch:


True, but when you have a history based on seizing other people's land and killing and harassing them it is difficult to switch to "nice" mode.


----------



## Pentheos

Where's this thread going? Nowhere. I'm out. Respond to my posts if you like, but I'll never read what you write. Later.


----------



## Odradek

Pentheos said:


> Where's this thread going? Nowhere. I'm out. Respond to my posts if you like, but I'll never read what you write. Later.


That's much like the attitude of the Israel regime itself.


----------



## Chouan

Pentheos said:


> Where's this thread going? Nowhere. I'm out. Respond to my posts if you like, but I'll never read what you write. Later.


Rather like sticking one's fingers in one's ears and singing "La la la".


----------



## Kingstonian

Odradek said:


> That's much like the attitude of the Israel regime itself.


Of course you have to factor in identity politics and support for the tribe. So some may feel obliged to post but uncomfortable doing so.


----------



## Hitch

Hamas =Terror

But then I dont believe King's notion that most Hamas missiles have DUD stenciled on the side.


----------



## Kingstonian

Hitch said:


> Hamas =Terror
> 
> But then I dont believe King's notion that most Hamas missiles have DUD stenciled on the side.


Well you can go down the sloganeering route. I could reply "Zionism =State Terrorism".

It is when you go into the detail that people like Pentheos struggle.

Incidentally, is anyone else painfully aware of the discomfiture of Western politicians required to come out with supportive words for Zionism?

For Brits, the BBC is even more embarrassing than usual with all it's handwringing about the missing Israeli soldier.


----------



## Kingstonian

Of course we do not have a match for US shock jocks who dabble in politics, or TV loudmouths like Hannity.

But at least Americans do not have to pay for the privilege of watching these people.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/colum...trong-pro-israel-bias-western-media-881718416


----------



## Hitch

Nothing to see here media, just an Israeli soldier that is helping a mentally ill Palestenian that was chained to a wall by Hamas&#8230;

https://youngcons.com/a-picture-of-an-israeli-soldier-you-definitely-wont-see-on-the-mainstream-media/


----------



## MaxBuck

Kingstonian said:


> Of course we do not have a match for US shock jocks who dabble in politics, or TV loudmouths like Hannity.


I suppose you prefer Chris Matthews?


----------



## Odradek

Hitch said:


> Hamas =Terror


Zionism = International Terror and always has, since at least the 1930's.


----------



## Kingstonian

MaxBuck said:


> I suppose you prefer Chris Matthews?


I have not heard him. I do not know all of them.

Pat Buchanan I have heard of. He is sound on Israel and a lot more.

His network ditched his show because they did not like what he was saying.


----------



## Odradek

Kingstonian said:


> For Brits, the BBC is even more embarrassing than usual with all it's handwringing about the missing Israeli soldier.


That kind of thing is even more blatant these days with the recent appointment of ardent zionist James Harding as head of BBC News.

*BBC editor tells staff to be soft on Israel*



> In 2011 Harding spoke at a media event organized by the Jewish Chronicle, telling his audience:
> 
> _I am pro-Israel. I believe in the state of Israel. I would have had a real problem if I had been coming to a paper [The Times, of which he was editor before taking up his BBC job] with a history of being anti-Israel. And, of course, Rupert Murdoch is pro-Israel._


----------



## Odradek

*"Genocide Is Permissible" Muses Times Of Israel, Promptly Retracts*

*The Times Of Israel* has removed a provocatively-titled blog post after huge blowback, denunciations, and ridicule across social media. The post - "When Genocide Is Permissible" - concludes, _"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?"_ Removal or not, we are sure this will do nothing to endear Israel to the world.

Though now removed from the site, thanks to "_The Way-Back Machine_", the original article is still available to read in full.
https://archive.today/RPf3M


----------



## Hitch

Odradek said:


> Zionism = International Terror and always has, since at least the 1930's.


Yup. If it werent for Israel and all her international terrorism we wouldnt have those long lines at the airport and the World trade Center would still be standing.

Come by sometime I'll rent you cabin on my unicorn ranch.


----------



## Kingstonian

"And from Uri Davis (Apartheid Israel) citing an interview of a settler, in response to the stance of Yeshaayahu Leibowitz, renowned Riga-born Israeli academic, Orthodox in the necessity of state-religion separation and opponent of the post-1967 Occupations:

'Leibowitz is right. We are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? &#8230; Even today I am willing to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them &#8230; Hang me if you want as a war criminal &#8230; What you lot don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it. True, it could have been finished in 1948 &#8230;'

And Davis citing Leibowitz in 1982, echoing Israel Shahak:

'If we must rule over another people, then it is impossible to avoid the existence of Nazi methods. The [Shabra and Shatila] massacre was done by us. The Phalange are our mercenaries, exactly as the Ukrainians and the Croatians and the Slovakians were the mercenaries of Hitler, who organized them as soldiers to do the work for him. Even so we have organized the assassins in Lebanon in order to murder the Palestinians."
https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/01/the-pariah-state/


----------



## SG_67

^ In reference to the above passage as well as others cited by Israelis and Jews around the world, isn't it interesting and doesn't it speak to the values of the west that they are free to criticize such actions and dissent without fear of having a Fatwah issued against them? 

Think of what would happen if someone in Saudi Arabia, Iran or any other number of Gulf states were to openly criticize their government either in the press or in public.


----------



## Kingstonian

^ A desperate attempt to accentuate the positive? "The beacon of Western democracy" shtick?

Fatwahs are not needed. You can always bump people off - like Bernadotte or Rabin, if necessary.

Mostly you rely on a compliant press.


----------



## Kingstonian

https://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2014/772-gaza-massacre.html


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

Godwin's Law be damned!

The similarity of the walled-in, captive Palestine to the Warsaw Ghetto cannot have escaped many people.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> ^ A desperate attempt to accentuate the positive? "The beacon of Western democracy" shtick?
> 
> Fatwahs are not needed. You can always bump people off - like Bernadotte or Rabin, if necessary.
> 
> Mostly you rely on a compliant press.


Not a desperate attempt at anything. Simply stating an observation.

We may now return to the utter silliness of this thread.


----------



## Kingstonian

"Silliness"

More desperation on your part. Run out of justifications, so attempt to trivialise.


----------



## SG_67

^ Throughout this thread terms like "zionazi" and zionism=terrorism are abound. I've read the term "genocide" used ubiquitously and it's incredible how easily some of these terms roll off of tongues of some members. 

So yes, much of it is silliness.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

On Friday the death toll stood at:

Gaza: 1400
Israel: 58, of which only TWO were civilians!


----------



## SG_67

^ Would you feel better if there were more dead Israelis?


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> ^ Throughout this thread terms like "zionazi" and zionism=terrorism are abound. I've read the term "genocide" used ubiquitously and it's incredible how easily some of these terms roll off of tongues of some members.


Would you prefer the term Judeo-Nazi that the Israeli settler uses above?

"Genocide" rolls off the pages of the Israeli press too. See above.


----------



## SG_67

^ Just curious why we need any comments regarding this when we just have to read what has already been published? Is there anyone here capable of independent thought and analysis and not just quoting others?

By the way, for every Israeli settler and Israeli press proclamation that you cite, there are just as many that run counter. 

Simply linking and referencing the opinions of others hardly makes for reasoned argument.


----------



## Hitch

Earl of Ormonde said:


> On Friday the death toll stood at:
> 
> Gaza: 1400
> Israel: 58, of which only TWO were civilians!


Way to go Hymie!


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> ^ Just curious why we need any comments regarding this when we just have to read what has already been published? Is there anyone here capable of independent thought and analysis and not just quoting others?
> 
> By the way, for every Israeli settler and Israeli press proclamation that you cite, there are just as many that run counter.
> 
> Simply linking and referencing the opinions of others hardly makes for reasoned argument.


I realise that misplaced tribal loyalty may be coming into play here, but you really are clutching at straws now.

If no links were supplied you would doubtless ask for proof.

Best stick to slogans like Hitch.


----------



## Hitch

SG_67 said:


> ^ Throughout this thread terms like "zionazi" and zionism=terrorism are abound. I've read the term "genocide" used ubiquitously and it's incredible how easily some of these terms roll off of tongues of some members.
> 
> So yes, much of it is silliness.


I hope you havent just now come to this conclusion.


----------



## Kingstonian

^ No worries now SG_67, Hitch "has got your back" as they say.


----------



## Hitch

Poor King ,its sad when an angry young Israel hater cant even get Egypt to take his side.


----------



## Kingstonian

^ Egypt has enough troubles of its own at the moment - which is the way Israel likes it.

But things change....


----------



## Kingstonian

Hitch said:


> Way to go Hymie!


Are you a fan of Baruch Goldstein and Meir Kahane too?


----------



## Odradek

Kingstonian said:


> Are you a fan of Baruch Goldstein and Meir Kahane too?


"Genocide Is Permissible" Muses Times Of Israel



> _If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?"_


says the now erased Times of Israel editorial.

If you search Google News there's little coverage of this story, as a compliant media will self-censor.
AIPAC's Wolf Blitzer wouldn't go near this story.

Plenty of proof online that it happened however.
https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=taneU6nLHc2e7AbktYHADg#q="genocide+is+permissible"+israel


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> I realise that misplaced tribal loyalty may be coming into play here, but you really are clutching at straws now.
> 
> If no links were supplied you would doubtless ask for proof.
> 
> Best stick to slogans like Hitch.


It's fine to reference online content, but you basically allow the content to speak for you. That's ok. I realize how you feel about the subject as I'm sure you understand the way I feel. The question is are you just trying to express your opinion in the most dramatic manner possible or are you wanting to engage in dialogue.

Calling a group of people Nazis and accusing them of committing genocide rather shuts down the discussion quickly and causes it to degenerate into juvenile name calling.

By the way, I'm perfectly capable of putting up an intellectual defense of my positions without the assistance of anyone.


----------



## Odradek

SG_67 said:


> It's fine to reference online content, but you basically allow the content to speak for you. That's ok. I realize how you feel about the subject as I'm sure you understand the way I feel. The question is are you just trying to express your opinion in the most dramatic manner possible or are you wanting to engage in dialogue.


It's a fairly dramatic situation which in turn calls for a "dramatic manner" to counteract the incessant drone of zionist controlled media whores.



SG_67 said:


> Calling a group of people Nazis and accusing them of committing genocide rather shuts down the discussion quickly and causes it to degenerate into juvenile name calling.


Why so?
Calling the Israelis "_Zionazis"_ is nothing if not accurate.
And yet another Israeli newspaper drops the mask and let's the real plan out into the open.
Nothing *we* didn't know already though.

*The Jerusalem Post - Why Gaza must go*


> _The only durable solution requires dismantling Gaza, humanitarian relocation of the non-belligerent Arab population, and extension of Israeli sovereignty over the region._


----------



## SG_67

^^^ I think you've done more to prove my point than any number of posts I'm capable of. You are dedicated my friend, I'll give you that.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> It's fine to reference online content, but you basically allow the content to speak for you. That's ok. I realize how you feel about the subject as I'm sure you understand the way I feel. The question is are you just trying to express your opinion in the most dramatic manner possible or are you wanting to engage in dialogue.
> 
> Calling a group of people Nazis and accusing them of committing genocide rather shuts down the discussion quickly and causes it to degenerate into juvenile name calling.
> 
> By the way, I'm perfectly capable of putting up an intellectual defense of my positions without the assistance of anyone.


You get my own words and cross references. Dialogue needs an opposing voice but if you feel the evidence is too powerful then that can be a challenge.

Well when Israelis use the term "Judeo Nazis"themselves and refer to genocide there is no reason why others cannot speak of this.

I am not convinced you are capable of an intellectual defence but that is not my problem.

I think we all know who the "juvenile name calling" specialist is and his presence is helpful to my case, although he probably thinks he is doing his bit for Israel.


----------



## SG_67

^^^ No I don't know nor do I care. There seems to be name calling occurring on both sides. 

Amongst any group of people who are free to express themselves, there is going to be a divergence of opinion. I'm sure where you reside people hold a variety of opinions on political topics, both domestic and foreign. 

But understand when you go out of your way to find an Israeli who uses the term "Judeo-Nazi" there are just as many, if not more, who support the state of Israel. I'm simply putting forth an element of rhetoric; if you want to reference others who support your opinion that support flimsy as all I have to do is find an Israeli who disagrees.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> ^^^ No I don't know nor do I care. There seems to be name calling occurring on both sides.
> 
> Amongst any group of people who are free to express themselves, there is going to be a divergence of opinion. I'm sure where you reside people hold a variety of opinions on political topics, both domestic and foreign.
> 
> But understand when you go out of your way to find an Israeli who uses the term "Judeo-Nazi" there are just as many, if not more, who support the state of Israel. I'm simply putting forth an element of rhetoric; if you want to reference others who support your opinion that support flimsy as all I have to do is find an Israeli who disagrees.


So find one.

The soi-disant "Judeo Nazi" thought he was a supporter of the state of Israel too.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

SG_67 said:


> ^ Would you feel better if there were more dead Israelis?


No, of course not. I would feel better if no one was getting killed. 
I post those figures to highlight the progress of the conflict and Israel's illegal and totally disproportionate response. This thread just keeps going round in circles, I and others have said all this already.

However, it is ironic that the Palestinians are able to kill 99.9999999% IDF personnel, yet the IDF are bombing the hell out of children, hospitals and schools, sick fvckers bascially!


----------



## Chouan

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/israeli-racism-gaza-kleinfeld-511


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

Chouan said:


> https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/israeli-racism-gaza-kleinfeld-511


On the BBC this morning listening to tearful Palestinians in Gaza was a real eye-opener because one obvious thing that came out was their clear dislike of anti-semitism, a couple of times Palestinian men made it clear they were talking about Israelis not Jews. They have no beef with Judaism just with hateful Israeli civilians and the IDF killing their friends and families.


----------



## SG_67

Earl of Ormonde said:


> No, of course not. I would feel better if no one was getting killed.
> I post those figures to highlight the progress of the conflict and Israel's illegal and* totally disproportionate response*. This thread just keeps going round in circles, I and others have said all this already.
> 
> However, it is ironic that the Palestinians are able to kill 99.9999999% IDF personnel, yet the IDF are bombing the hell out of children, hospitals and schools, sick fvckers bascially!


Please don't say Palestinians are able to kill, as it's Hamas that's doing the killing. And the reason they are able to kill "99.99999999% IDF personnel is because Israel has efficient and effective countermeasures for Hamas rockets. The death toll on the IDF side would likely be zero were the IDF to just indiscriminately shell and carpet bomb Gaza.

As for disproportionate response, again I'm afraid I don't understand what that means. Should Israeli snipers just find a perch and knock off random Palestinians for each Israeli killed? That would be proportionate I guess. Or would you prefer that Hamas kill more Israelis? Would you rather the IDF allow a few more rockets to land in neighborhoods and kill innocent civilians? Or would you rather Israeli soldiers just march in column unprotected and let themselves be killed?

What body count ratio would you be more satisfied with? I'm just curious as to what metric would please you. Of course, a zero body count on either side is ideal, but the world is not an ideal place, war and conflict are never fought on ideal terms and this particular stretch of earth is and has for a long time been less than ideal.

For all the vitriol you spew out, I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind stating your solution to this problem. If you are the PM of Israel and rockets are indiscriminately falling on your civilian population, how would you respond?


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

SG_67 said:


> For all the vitriol you spew out


And with that slur you have just negated everything else you wrote and extinguished the last spark in me that intended to provide a full response to your questions.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

*Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents"*


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> As for disproportionate response, again I'm afraid I don't understand what that means.


It's a Christian thing. As opposed to an Old Testament, Talmudic, vengeful view, where ***** are second class citizens who are of no account.

If there were Jews in the Gaza buildings Israel would not fire rockets in response.

Here is President Truman :-

"A previously unknown diary by Harry Truman, discovered in 2003, revealed that he harbored harsh feelings about Jews. Incensed when former Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, Jr. called him about the plight of the refugee ship Exodus in 1947, Truman wrote in his diary, "He [had] no business, whatever to call me. *The Jews have no sense of proportion* nor do they have any judgment on world affairs&#8230; The Jews, I find, are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[erson]s as long as the Jews get special treatment. *Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog.*"


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> It's a Christian thing. As opposed to an Old Testament, Talmudic, vengeful view, where ***** are second class citizens who are of no account.
> 
> If there were Jews in the Gaza buildings Israel would not fire rockets in response.
> 
> Here is President Truman :-
> 
> "A previously unknown diary by Harry Truman, discovered in 2003, revealed that he harbored harsh feelings about Jews. Incensed when former Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, Jr. called him about the plight of the refugee ship Exodus in 1947, Truman wrote in his diary, "He [had] no business, whatever to call me. *The Jews have no sense of proportion* nor do they have any judgment on world affairs&#8230; The Jews, I find, are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[erson]s as long as the Jews get special treatment. *Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog.*"


Whenever I read or hear someone say "The Jews" I cringe, as though they are all classified as one entity with one mind and one frame of thought.

Interesting how you don't mind finding random quotes by Israeli Jews to support your position, but then have no compunction about quoting someone who paints Jews with such a broad brush. They are a monolith when it suits your purpose.

I think that passage says more about Truman than it does about anything else.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> I think that passage says more about Truman than it does about anything else.


I see it as a prophecy of troubles ahead.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> I see it as a prophecy of troubles ahead.


You're welcome to see it any way you would like. Something tells me that what Truman thinks bears little on any opinions you have formed up to this point.

But I ask you, why do you insist on lumping all Israelis and Jews together when it suits you, but when it serves your purpose you pluck quotes from others that support your argument.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

Talk of genocide is very premature, just 1% of the Palestinian population would be 44,000. The current death toll isn't even 2,000.


----------



## dr.butcher

Cant we get back to talking about clothes, something I assume people here have a little knowledge of rather than potted uninformed opinions?


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> Please don't say Palestinians are able to kill, as it's Hamas that's doing the killing. And the reason they are able to kill "99.99999999% IDF personnel is because Israel has efficient and effective countermeasures for Hamas rockets. The death toll on the IDF side would likely be zero were the IDF to just indiscriminately shell and carpet bomb Gaza.
> 
> As for disproportionate response, again I'm afraid I don't understand what that means. Should Israeli snipers just find a perch and knock off random Palestinians for each Israeli killed? That would be proportionate I guess. Or would you prefer that Hamas kill more Israelis? Would you rather the IDF allow a few more rockets to land in neighborhoods and kill innocent civilians? Or would you rather Israeli soldiers just march in column unprotected and let themselves be killed?
> 
> What body count ratio would you be more satisfied with? I'm just curious as to what metric would please you. Of course, a zero body count on either side is ideal, but the world is not an ideal place, war and conflict are never fought on ideal terms and this particular stretch of earth is and has for a long time been less than ideal.
> 
> _*For all the vitriol you spew out*_, I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind stating your solution to this problem. If you are the PM of Israel and rockets are indiscriminately falling on your civilian population, how would you respond?


It would be useful if you could find some evidence of the Earl's "vitriol". I can't find any.

If I were the PM of Israel a good idea would be to find out why the rockets were being fired. To solve the Palestinian problem one would first have to find out what the problem is. Of course the problem is easy to solve, but the solution is harder to achieve because it would mean upsetting the hard line Zionist racists in Israel who can make or break any Israeli government.


----------



## Earl of Ormonde

dr.butcher said:


> Cant we get back to talking about clothes, something I assume people here have a little knowledge of rather than potted uninformed opinions?


Hi Doc, this is the Interchange, where we argue about everything. Talk of schmutter can be found in the fashion and trad forums


----------



## dr.butcher

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Hi Doc, this is the Interchange, where we argue about everything. Talk of schmutter can be found in the fashion and trad forums


I know, I know, I was just voicing frustration without directly engaging any particular comments. That's allowed in the Interchange I hope.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> You're welcome to see it any way you would like. Something tells me that what Truman thinks bears little on any opinions you have formed up to this point.
> 
> But I ask you, why do you insist on lumping all Israelis and Jews together when it suits you, but when it serves your purpose you pluck quotes from others that support your argument.


References to " Jews" are Truman's - apart from my mention of Jews as targets, rather than non Jews, which was to make a legitimate point.


----------



## Kingstonian

The Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset - no less - is now calling for concentration camps to house Gaza residents, followed by the obliteration of the remaining buildings and the eventual expulsion of all Gaza citizens.

https://electronicintifada.net/blog...parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

And Israel genuinely wants peace?

Certainly not a just peace.


----------



## SG_67

^ I mean, the sources you cite are truly ridiculous! The "electronic intifada"? 

No less a source than "High Times" magazine is calling for the legalization of pot! Now that's news.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> References to " Jews" are Truman's - apart from my mention of Jews as targets, rather than non Jews, which was to make a legitimate point.


Yes, I realize you're quoting Truman. But you seem perfectly content to quote Truman when he references "The Jews" but then seems perfectly willing to single out those Jews in Israel, and outside, who may be against the current policy of the state.

I'm wondering if you're getting my point? Do you realize the inconsistency of your rhetoric?


----------



## SG_67

Earl of Ormonde said:


> And with that slur you have just negated everything else you wrote and extinguished the last spark in me that intended to provide a full response to your questions.


Yes of course! You're free to look for any evidence you like to vindicate any position that you take.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> ^ I mean, the sources you cite are truly ridiculous! The "electronic intifada"?
> 
> No less a source than "High Times" magazine is calling for the legalization of pot! Now that's news.


It is in a national daily newspaper in the UK as well, if the particular source bothers you. I think deniability will prove difficult on this one though. I am not sure the will even be any breathing space.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> Yes, I realize you're quoting Truman. But you seem perfectly content to quote Truman when he references "The Jews" but then seems perfectly willing to single out those Jews in Israel, and outside, who may be against the current policy of the state.
> 
> I'm wondering if you're getting my point? Do you realize the inconsistency of your rhetoric?


Not really. Individual Jews or Jews as a group, what is the difference?

It is not an either/or option.

Yes there will be a variety of views but sometimes their will be group values that apply to many.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> So find one.


https://tbo.com/news/politics/local...m_campaign=Feed:+tbo/politics+(TBO+>+Politics)

Since there are those who like to pluck quotes from people in support of their argument, here are a couple of examples of those that don't necessarily see it your way.

We can probably play this game all day long. My citing the above as well as your citations aren't a substitute for dialogue and even debate. They don't add any credence, validate nor invalidate a position.

Citing online sources, especially from sources with an obvious agenda, are the last refuge of those who basically are arguing on pure emotion and care little for facts.

You may have facts on your side, but at least present them in your own words, instead of links to online sources. By doing so, you're abdicating your own intellectual honesty and relying on someone else to make your argument for you.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> https://tbo.com/news/politics/local...m_campaign=Feed:+tbo/politics+(TBO+>+Politics)
> 
> Since there are those who like to pluck quotes from people in support of their argument, here are a couple of examples of those that don't necessarily see it your way.
> 
> We can probably play this game all day long. My citing the above as well as your citations aren't a substitute for dialogue and even debate. They don't add any credence, validate nor invalidate a position.
> 
> Citing online sources, especially from sources with an obvious agenda, are the last refuge of those who basically are arguing on pure emotion and care little for facts.
> 
> You may have facts on your side, but at least present them in your own words, instead of links to online sources. By doing so, you're abdicating your own intellectual honesty and relying on someone else to make your argument for you.


All your posts show is that the Israeli public support the butchery. I have never said they did not.

As I said before, you get my words plus back up in case anyone wants evidence - and they inevitably do.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> All your posts show is that the Israeli public support the butchery. I have never said they did not.
> 
> As I said before, you get my words plus back up in case anyone wants evidence - and they inevitably do.


Ok...does this count?

Here you go. Here's someone who supports the Israeli action. Do you realize how silly it is now to debate by proxy?


----------



## Kingstonian

^ Not really. That example is an Israeli sportsman who supports the action.

However, he does not go into detail. My examples had more depth than "We had to do it".

Suggest you try a Zionist politician or academic.


----------



## SG_67

^^^ You asked for opinions from people who run counter to those that you referenced, and to your own. 

The opinions of Zionist politicians and academics is no more valid or invalid as those of anyone else. This is not Plato's Republic, where we are ruled by philosopher kings.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> ^^^ You asked for opinions from people who run counter to those that you referenced, and to your own.
> 
> The opinions of Zionist politicians and academics is no more valid or invalid as those of anyone else. This is not Plato's Republic, where we are ruled by philosopher kings.


You said you could back up your statements with pro Israeli support. I must admit I was expecting something more substantive though. Not a no mark sportsman, with about as much to say as a certain poster from Oregon.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> You said you could back up your statements with pro Israeli support. I must admit I was expecting something more substantive though. Not a no mark sportsman, with about as much to say as a certain poster from Oregon.


Hardly. I suppose near unanimous Israeli support (per public opinion polls) matters little to you.

You cite newspaper editorials and proclamations by Jews within and from without Israel but all you're doing is citing evidence of a diversity of opinion. That's a given and not in dispute, at least on my end.

But you're acting as though this diversity of opinion speaks to the legitimacy of what is being done. As though the existence of opinion serves as existential proof of your rightness.

I suppose anyone who disagrees with you has nothing to say and those that do are intellectuals. That's a pretty shallow way of seeing things.


----------



## Kingstonian

Thinking about it, I know you can do better.

You must be deliberately choosing anodyne quotes to make a point.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> Hardly. I suppose near unanimous Israeli support (per public opinion polls) matters little to you.


 As a former good time girl and current Israeli citizen once opined :-

"They would say that, wouldn't they"

Corroborating cross reference https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandy_Rice-Davies


----------



## SG_67

^^^ again, you can find as many quotes as you want. This is not a quotes arms race.

Opinions are not a substitute for fact. By the way, the only opinion that really matters are those of Israeli voters and they seem to be in favor of the campaign. I suppose those who are under the constant threat of having missiles rain down on them have something to say that carries more weight than a columnist for the electronic intifada.

Diversity of opinion and the expression of that opinion is a healthy thing and perhaps will lead to an internal dialogue.

I'll leave you with one link, since you're so fond of links. It's from Wikipedia but valid and accurate nonetheless. It's the charter for Hamas:

https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm

Please read and tell me how anyone is supposed to reason with an organization such as this.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> ^^^ again, you can find as many quotes as you want. This is not a quotes arms race.
> 
> Opinions are not a substitute for fact. By the way, the only opinion that really matters are those of Israeli voters and they seem to be in favor of the campaign. I suppose those who are under the constant threat of having missiles rain down on them have something to say


If you mean ALL the citizens - including non Jews in the bantustans - then I would agree.

No quotes this time.


----------



## SG_67

^^^ That's not how polling works and you know it. The same as the quotes you keep citing aren't representative of ALL Jews.


----------



## Hitch

This wouldnt pass the plausible test for an SNL skit;



> Among the UN's long bill of particulars against the beleaguered Jewish state comes the almost unbelievable accusation that Israel's refusal to share its Iron Dome ballistic missile defense shield with the "governing authority" of Gaza - i.e. Hamas, the terror group created to pursue the extermination of the Jewish state and now waging a terrorist war against it - constitutes a war crime against the civilians of Gaza.


https://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace...st-War-Crime-Not-Sharing-Iron-Dome-with-Hamas


----------



## Shaver

Manchester Police have called for the pro Palestinian groups who protest in the city centre to reconsider the manner in which they express their strong views. I have witnessed these protests the last two weekends and one could easily be forgiven for mistaking them as the type of folk who would approve of Endlösung.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-28645331


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> ^^^ That's not how polling works and you know it. The same as the quotes you keep citing aren't representative of ALL Jews.


Israel does not really work. You can rig it so an Arab majority can never upset the apple cart but at some stage you have to get rid of them, or reach some sort of compromise.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> Israel does not really work. You can rig it so an Arab majority can never upset the apple cart but at some stage you have to get rid of them, or reach some sort of compromise.


Israel admits that it is a Jewish state, with a Jewish identity and the Jewish homeland. I realize those of us in more heterogenous societies find this a difficult concept but when you consider that the UK and America are largely anglo-saxon with anglo-saxon cultural and political values that we just take as a given due to history then you can see how Israel can think of itself in this manner.

I'm just wondering how you would feel if in your beloved UK a small but burgeoning group started to agitate for Sharia law, the marginalizing of Christianity and limitation of religious freedom in favor of Islam.


----------



## Kingstonian

SG_67 said:


> Israel admits that it is a Jewish state, with a Jewish identity and the Jewish homeland. I realize those of us in more heterogenous societies find this a difficult concept but when you consider that the UK and America are largely anglo-saxon with anglo-saxon cultural and political values that we just take as a given due to history then you can see how Israel can think of itself in this manner.
> 
> I'm just wondering how you would feel if in your beloved UK a small but burgeoning group started to agitate for Sharia law, the marginalizing of Christianity and limitation of religious freedom in favor of Islam.


The UK comparison is irrelevant.

Israel has no legitimacy and the model does not work.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> The UK comparison is irrelevant.
> 
> Israel has no legitimacy and the model does not work.


Then this thread should have ended after the first 4-5 posts.

"Israel has no legitimacy". So hence there is no point arguing further.

What a clever rhetorical argument; Israel has no legitimacy. Why? Because it is illegitimate. Why? Because it has no legitimacy.

I seem to recall a phrase from my freshman year philosophy class. Circular logic! That's it. Otherwise known as begging the question.

I suggest you dust off your copy of Aristotle's "on topics" and give a quick read.


----------



## Kingstonian

Stolen lands.

But this is thread about war crimes. 

And how to rectify the situation.

Aristotle is not needed.


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> Israel admits that it is a Jewish state, with a Jewish identity and the Jewish homeland. I realize those of us in more heterogenous societies find this a difficult concept but when you consider that the UK and America are largely anglo-saxon with anglo-saxon cultural and political values that we just take as a given due to history then you can see how Israel can think of itself in this manner.


That's alright then! Israel, by saying that it's a Jewish state is, are therefore allowed to behave in a grossly racist way, because they say so! A group of people in Eastern Europe, mostly, decided that they were entitled to their own homeland because their particular book of mythology said that Palestine was theirs, because their God said so. Do you, an apparently rational person, really believe that their view of their destiny gives them the moral right to behave the way that the state of Israel does? 
Surely the USA in the 1960's rather than allow civil rights to black people could simply have said that the United States was a white country, then everything would have been fine! The Black people could simply have been given the choice of deportation or repression! The Northern Ireland government needn't have used gerrymandering and a confessionally biased police to deal with Catholic Nationalists in Northern Ireland, they could just have announced that "Northern Ireland is a protestant country", then the civil rights problem would have gone away! The Catholics could have left or accepted their inferior status. Problem solved!



SG_67 said:


> I'm just wondering how you would feel if in your beloved UK a small but burgeoning group started to agitate for Sharia law ....


Sharia Law, like Talmudic Law, has been acceptable in civil cases under the British legal system, since the late 19th Century. The only condition is that all parties involved have to agree to accept that Sharia or Talmudic Law be applied in their case.



SG_67 said:


> ..... the marginalizing of Christianity and limitation of religious freedom in favor of Islam.


Straw man. Again. Do you really believe that the Palestinians in Israel are seeking to marginalise Judaism and limit religious freedom in favour of Islam? When Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Turks, an Islamic state, both Christianity and Judaism were tolerated.


----------



## SG_67

Kingstonian said:


> Stolen lands.
> 
> But this is thread about war crimes.
> 
> And how to rectify the situation.
> 
> Aristotle is not needed.


It's more existential than just war crimes. You state that Israel is illegal to begin with. Hence it's no different than a criminal enterprise with a state; non different than the Taliban.

Therefore, the conversation is over. Any security operations it conducts are therefore criminal. It's very existence is criminal.

Your problem is not what they are doing in Gaza, your problem is the very existence of a strip of land called Israel.

It's ok, just admit it. Don't hide your true feeling in a blanket of philosophical arguments about disproportionate force or other political arguments such as the right to return.

Just say "Israel shouldn't exist and any action taken against the illegitimate gang of criminals calling themselves the government of Israel is justified."


----------



## Kingstonian

There are two problems.

The most pressing is the Gaza war crimes.

The other is the land mass currently known as Israel.

You are not going to pretend it is legitimate are you?

I know it suits you, but that is a different matter.


----------



## Andy

I'm declaring a 72 hour cease fire on this thread.  Definitely for humanitarian reasons.

Let me know when you're all ready to reload!!


----------

