# So traditional it becomes eccentric



## CharlesFerdinand (Jun 18, 2010)

True story: 

During an international gathering, a French journalist (who likes to make witty remarks) introduces me to a collegue of his, describing me as 'the only Belgian journalist who dresses like that, the other ones dress more conventionally)

For the record, I was wearing olive moleskin trousers, cream shirt, light brown tattersal waistcoat, olive tie and olive jacket with small brown overcheck (which I actually got from the forum here, probably Tweedydon).

So I say: I thought this style was pretty traditional.

To which he replies: but it is so traditional it becomes eccentric again.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

I really haven't got a handle on this "trad" thing, yet. But some of my colleagues occasionally remark that I look like someone from the 19th century with my three-piece suits and pocket watch. Then again, my current Franz Josef moustache doesn't do much to counter their observation.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

One root of trad is Victorian men's dress, but if it stands out as such, it has probably left trad.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

CharlesFerdinand said:


> True story:
> 
> During an international gathering, a French journalist (who likes to make witty remarks) introduces me to a collegue of his, describing me as 'the only Belgian journalist who dresses like that, the other ones dress more conventionally)
> 
> ...


Yes, the outfit sounds wonderful. However, assuming that this occurred in the fall/winter, if you're wearing that outfit in a large city, then I think it might be a little out-of-place during weekday business hours. To me the outfit fits in well in the country/small town...or anywhere on the weekend.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Stirling Newberry said:


> One root of trad is Victorian men's dress, but if it stands out as such, it has probably left trad.


Did I just click on a link which took me in the Twilight Zone!?

Brian


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

vwguy said:


> Did I just click on a link which took me in the Twilight Zone!?
> 
> Brian


I read it as intended for TFL but mistakenly posted here.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Stirling Newberry said:


> One root of trad is Victorian men's dress


No, it isn't.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. The standard western male dress clearly has its roots in the 19th century Victorian, down to some very particular details.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Stirling Newberry said:


> The standard western male dress clearly has its roots in the 19th century Victorian, down to some very particular details.


Trad isn't "standard western male dress," particularly in this day and age.

You can trace the roots of a suit and tie back a helluva lot further than the 19th century. That doesn't have anything to do with trad, either.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

Topsider said:


> Trad isn't "standard western male dress," particularly in this day and age.


It is within the range of what upper middle class and professional class men wear as to be available, down to the most inexpensive price points. It is not so far from ordinary as to be unobtainable, or only available bespoke. The basic cuts, styles, accoutrements are all clearly variations of articles worn since the end of the Romantic in the 19th century.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Stirling Newberry said:


> It is within the range of what upper middle class and professional class men wear as to be available, down to the most inexpensive price points. It is not so far from ordinary as to be unobtainable, or only available bespoke. The basic cuts, styles, accoutrements are all clearly variations of articles worn since the end of the Romantic in the 19th century.


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

Stirling Newberry said:


> It is within the range of what upper middle class and professional class men wear as to be available, down to the most inexpensive price points. It is not so far from ordinary as to be unobtainable, or only available bespoke. The basic cuts, styles, accoutrements are all clearly variations of articles worn since the end of the Romantic in the 19th century.


This attempt at a definition fails precisely because it casts the net so wide that no subsequent distinctions are useful. This is fuzzy thinking at its finest. And hand waving at its best!


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

This message is hidden because *Topsider* is on your ignore list. Ah, blessed ignore.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Stirling Newberry said:


> It is within the range of what upper middle class and professional class men wear as to be available, down to the most inexpensive price points. It is not so far from ordinary as to be unobtainable, or only available bespoke. The basic cuts, styles, accoutrements are all clearly variations of articles worn since the end of the Romantic in the 19th century.


You can try to redefine it all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

Brian


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Sorry guys, looks like he's right. This lithograph was etched on the Dartmouth campus in 1966. I don't think this particular image was published in "Take Ivy" but as you can see it's practically indistinguishable from Victorian fashions.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

^ I'm not buying it. His pants aren't cuffed.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Stirling Newberry said:


> * This message is hidden because Topsider is on your ignore list. *
> 
> Ah, blessed ignore.


Wow! So that's what happens when you 'ignore' someone. Never found any need for it myself......

Traditional clothing can most easily become perceived as eccentric when you are surrounded by grown men in faded Led Zep tour t-shirts, ill fitting jeans and dirty trainers. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Topsider said:


> ^ I'm not buying it. His pants aren't cuffed.


You're not entitled to your own facts. Those pants are clearly cuffed.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

Shaver said:


> Wow! So that's what happens when you 'ignore' someone. Never found any need for it myself......
> 
> Traditional clothing can most easily become perceived as eccentric when you are surrounded by grown men in faded Led Zep tour t-shirts, ill fitting jeans and dirty trainers. :icon_smile_wink:


You are more affable than I am. This is the first time I have used it on this forum.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Well you've been a member for 2 weeks. Keep that button handy.


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

Stirling Newberry said:


> It is within the range of what upper middle class and professional class men wear as to be available, down to the most inexpensive price points. It is not so far from ordinary as to be unobtainable, or only available bespoke. The basic cuts, styles, accoutrements are all clearly variations of articles worn since the end of the Romantic in the 19th century.


Again, what's the usefulness of this as an attempt to define "Trad"? This is so general that it includes all Eurocentric tailored men's clothing. It does nothing it make any finer distinctions.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

I think he's lost. Would someone who isn't on his ignore list kindly direct him to the fashion forum?


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

PSA for newbies . . .

Do everyone a favor and don't try defining "Trad" until you're worked through the "Sticky: American/Trad" thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?34490-American-Trad


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Stirling Newberry said:


> You are more affable than I am. This is the first time I have used it on this forum.


Actually I'm not so affable by nature.

It's more the case I've learnt that being sharp with others looks rather silly on a forum such as this (which expects us to treat one another graciously). :redface:


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

This forum is neither more nor less gracious than most. It is, in the end, about a particular region of current men's fashion based on the tastes of the participants, and therefore not worth either being worked up over, nor to read too much into it.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Perhaps, perhaps not. 

But if we undertake analysis of analyses on every subject tabled for discussion then we may satisfy an urge toward philosophy but very little else. :icon_smile:


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

Stirling Newberry said:


> This forum is neither more nor less gracious than most. It is, in the end, about a particular region of current men's fashion based on the tastes of the participants, and therefore not worth either being worked up over, nor to read too much into it.


Cop out. You walked in, started pontificating about a subject of which you're unfamilar, and now you're too proud to admit that you're wrong. Quite a dubious entrance.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

What urges are being satisfied is up to each individual. The best thing to do is simply not read writers you are not interested in.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

Stirling Newberry, 

I don't think anyone is trying to displease you. It is simply that the very well established "norms" of this board are different than yours. You are showing that with your attitude in this thread. I see from the "What are you wearing" thread that your clothing tastes are also different. This is okay, just please don't dislike us for it.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

rsgordon said:


> Stirling Newberry,
> 
> I don't think anyone is trying to displease you. It is simply that the very well established "norms" of this board are different than yours. You are showing that with your attitude in this thread. I see from the "What are you wearing" thread that your clothing tastes are also different. This is okay, just please don't dislike us for it.


Yes, I feel so out of place with BB shirts and pin stripe suits, it is just devastating.


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

Stirling Newberry said:


> What urges are being satisfied is up to each individual. The best thing to do is simply not read writers you are not interested in.


Your ego precedes you. Simply admit that your attempt at defining "Trad" was pure silliness.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

[He hurries to the door, anxious to get away with his booty. When he opens it he is confronted with a dainty and exquisitely clean young Japanese lady in a simple blue cotton kimono printed cunningly with small white jasmine blossoms. Mrs. Pearce is with her. He gets out of her way deferentially and apologizes]. Beg pardon, miss. 
THE JAPANESE LADY. Garn! Don't you know your own daughter?

From GBS Pygmalion.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

Where are the moderators?


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

rsgordon said:


> Where are the moderators?


Who is John Galt?


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## Dieu et les Dames (Jul 18, 2012)

I would like to take advantage of the lull in this thread to advise to no one ever cleans their driving shoes with saddle soap. It is way too harsh for soft leather.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Stirling Newberry said:


> [He hurries to the door, anxious to get away with his booty. When he opens it he is confronted with a dainty and exquisitely clean young Japanese lady in a simple blue cotton kimono printed cunningly with small white jasmine blossoms. Mrs. Pearce is with her. He gets out of her way deferentially and apologizes]. Beg pardon, miss.
> THE JAPANESE LADY. Garn! Don't you know your own daughter?
> 
> From GBS Pygmalion.


Are you in breach of forum rule 9?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I wasn't aware Halley had written a 5th symphony.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

No I am quoting an from a famous English writer, George Bernard Shaw. I hear his works might have some merit to them.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I've heard of a discussion of men's dress that runs entirely on static electricity. Taken directly from the atmosphere. I intend to find that discussion.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Stirling Newberry said:


> No I am quoting an from a famous English writer, George Bernard Shaw. I hear his works might have some merit to them.


You appear to misunderstand.

Allow me to be blunt then - are you THE Stirling Newberry? The famous one, historian, composer etc?


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## blairrob (Oct 30, 2010)

Topsider said:


> ^ I'm not buying it. His pants aren't cuffed.


Pshaw. He is wearing proper square toed shoes, the definition of Trad, as observed by the Pilgrims of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in the early 17th century where Trad first evolved.

On another note, if I put any more of you silly fellows on 'ignore' I won't have any other posts to read and thus, oh wait now.... :idea:


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

Shaver said:


> You appear to misunderstand.
> 
> Allow me to be blunt then - are you THE Stirling Newberry? The famous one, historian, composer etc?


More than a few would note infamous as opposed to famous.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Stirling Newberry said:


> You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. The standard western male dress clearly has its roots in the 19th century Victorian, down to some very particular details.





Stirling Newberry said:


> One root of trad is Victorian men's dress, but if it stands out as such, it has probably left trad.


Mr. Newberry:

By making the logical assumption that "trad" is an abbreviation for "traditional" you have inadvertently fallen into a semantic trap. "Trad" as used here as a term of art to describe the specific post WWII style of men's dress that originated in New England and is associated with the Ivy League from roughly 1950 to 1965. Non darted 3 roll 2 jackets, flat front pants, oxford button down shirts and longwings are a few of the mainstays of the genre. Noted trad dressers included William Buckley on the right and Daniel Patrick Moynihan on the left. Trad has much in common with the style commonly called "preppy".

Trad is but one subset of traditional classical Anglo American dress, a tradition that includes several other subsets. Of course, traditional Anglo American men's dress can trace its antecedents not just to Victorian times but back to the Regency. The aspects of traditional Anglo American dress, other than trad, are discussed on Andy's Fashion Forum, which is only a click away.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

BiffBiffster said:


> More than a few would note infamous as opposed to famous.


Steampunk is a genre which depresses me.

Cyberpunk, too.

Tradpunk - now* there's* an idea that could have mileage amongst those without any sense of style.......

We could outline the framework right here - tweed waistcoats, colander on head (obligatory), Jackson Pollock effect splattered beef roll loafers........

:redface:

.
.
.
.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

Shaver said:


> Steampunk is a genre which depresses me.
> 
> Cyberpunk, too.
> 
> ...


Whoa easy please. I wore multicolor painted boat shoes for probably too long after helping a friend building a lakehouse.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Shaver said:


> Tradpunk - now* there's* an idea that could have mileage amongst those without any sense of style...


The OPH actually mentioned a "punk-prep connection." It was a pretty short-lived 80's phenomenon, as I recall.


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

Topsider said:


> The OPH actually mentioned a "punk-prep connection." It was a pretty short-lived 80's phenomenon, as I recall.


I had to look it up. She notes the Lower East Side scene and the only band mentioned is the Talking Heads.

For inspiration, the UK scene of that time is much more interesting, due to the Mod influence.


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## leisureclass (Jan 31, 2011)

The Talking Heads reference in the OPH makes a lot of sense. In their early days they dressed like they fell out of the OPH. Partly because it was how they were raised and partly as a reaction to all the Richard Hell wannabes in NYC at the time. That's Trad-punk for sure. Something that I very much understand if the first part comes from my wardrobe and the second part from my LP collection.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Topsider said:


> Who is John Galt?





Trip English said:


> I wasn't aware Halley had written a 5th symphony.





Trip English said:


> I've heard of a discussion of men's dress that runs entirely on static electricity. Taken directly from the atmosphere. I intend to find that discussion.


Can you recommend me a pair of bit loafers where the bits are made of Rearden Metal?


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

hardline_42 said:


> Can you recommend me a pair of bit loafers where the bits are made of Rearden Metal?


You might ask Calvin Atwood.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Telemachus Sneezed. :cool2:


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

If only someone had explained this so graciously a page or two ago.

:thumbs-up:



arkirshner said:


> Mr. Newberry:
> 
> By making the logical assumption that "trad" is an abbreviation for "traditional" you have inadvertently fallen into a semantic trap. "Trad" as used here as a term of art to describe the specific post WWII style of men's dress that originated in New England and is associated with the Ivy League from roughly 1950 to 1965. Non darted 3 roll 2 jackets, flat front pants, oxford button down shirts and longwings are a few of the mainstays of the genre. Noted trad dressers included William Buckley on the right and Daniel Patrick Moynihan on the left. Trad has much in common with the style commonly called "preppy".
> 
> Trad is but one subset of traditional classical Anglo American dress, a tradition that includes several other subsets. Of course, traditional Anglo American men's dress can trace its antecedents not just to Victorian times but back to the Regency. The aspects of traditional Anglo American dress, other than trad, are discussed on Andy's Fashion Forum, which is only a click away.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

I really like the first post in this thread, and intend to use that turn of phrase -- I'd say it works well.

My school has a Yogi Berra museum, so in tribute I'll offer up "Nobody dresses like that any more -- it makes you look like a conformist," which popped into my head recently.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

leisureclass said:


> The Talking Heads reference in the OPH makes a lot of sense. In their early days they dressed like they fell out of the OPH. Partly because it was how they were raised and partly as a reaction to all the Richard Hell wannabes in NYC at the time. That's Trad-punk for sure. Something that I very much understand if the first part comes from my wardrobe and the second part from my LP collection.


Undarted with patch pockets.

Although those roped shoulders are another story.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Also, it's well noted that Georgetown Day School was a breeding ground for the DC hardcore scene.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

L-feld said:


> Undarted with patch pockets.
> 
> Although those roped shoulders are another story.


Isn't he in seersucker and Shuron frames off and on in _Stop Making Sense_? I haven't seen it in ages, but the soundtrack's been on heavy rotation for me.

Actually, it was a vague desire to dress like the Talking Heads that made me buy my black jeans.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Youthful Repp-robate said:


> Isn't he in seersucker and Shuron frames off and on in _Stop Making Sense_? I haven't seen it in ages, but the soundtrack's been on heavy rotation for me.
> 
> Actually, it was a vague desire to dress like the Talking Heads that made me buy my black jeans.


It might be pincord, not entirely sure. Definitely Shuron frames, though.

And don't forget that bowtie in the video for Once in a Lifetime


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

In the early '80s, I found Paul Weller to be more inspirational for dress than David Byrne . . .


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

BiffBiffster said:


> In the early '80s, I found Paul Weller to be more inspirational for dress than David Byrne . . .


Haha, yes. So did I. When I was in college, I spent an inordinate amount of time looking for sta-prest trousers and skinny ties on in thrift stores thanks to him.

For better or worse, I also looked to Elvis Costello as an inspiration back in those days. Oy vey.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Everyone on this forum is still drunk from yesterday's festivities, right?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

*Trad Punk*


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## BiffBiffster (Jul 2, 2012)

Even Joey could put on tailored clothing--at least for a short spell.


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## matt.e. (Sep 22, 2011)

^ Two fine examples of Tradpunk!


~~~~~~~~


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## YoungSoulRebel (Feb 10, 2015)

Delving back into the blackness I can across this gem Mr. Shaver. Little did you know that in two short years you would have the likes of me to pester you haha.



Shaver said:


> Steampunk is a genre which depresses me.
> 
> Cyberpunk, too.
> 
> ...


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## YoungSoulRebel (Feb 10, 2015)

As did I. Not so much during his Jam days, but the early Style Council albums blew my little Mod mind sartorially speaking.



BiffBiffster said:


> In the early '80s, I found Paul Weller to be more inspirational for dress than David Byrne . . .


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

L-feld said:


> Also, it's well noted that Georgetown Day School was a breeding ground for the DC hardcore scene.


Psssh. I don't wanna hear it.


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## YoungSoulRebel (Feb 10, 2015)

Go to college, be a man, what's the ******* deal?
It's not how old I am, it's how old I feel...

Read more: Minor Threat - Minor Threat Lyrics | MetroLyrics



WillBarrett said:


> Psssh. I don't wanna hear it.


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

Stirling Newberry said:


> No I am quoting an from a famous English writer, George Bernard Shaw. I hear his works might have some merit to them.


Shaw wrote in English, but he wasn't English.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Indeed. Nor Wilde either.

YSR, this thread was rather a wheeze. I enjoyed perusing it anew.

We really don't get the same high quality of idiocy these days as once could be expected.



ROI said:


> Shaw wrote in English, but he wasn't English.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Shaver said:


> We really don't get the same high quality of idiocy these days as once could be expected.


Yeah, the idiocy these days is low quality, so dull.


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