# 911 Hysteria Snowball Keeps Going, and Going



## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Congrats to Bush and spineless Democrats for doing what bin Laden and al Qaeda couldn't hope to accomplish in their wildest dreams.

"To secure access to the telecommunications switches inside the United States, which the NSA had simply asked for in the past, the new law obliges phone and Internet companies to create back doors for eavesdroppers; if they don't comply, they can be held in contempt. And best of all, there's no longer an audit of abuses by the DoJ's inspector general."

https://www.slate.com/id/2171747/

Wait, don't tell me. Y'all feel safer because of this new law.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

At least there is no talk about wiring up people's 'nads.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Wayfar,



Wayfarer said:


> At least there is no talk about wiring up people's 'nads.


That's what the Pathmark thread is for!

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> Wayfar,
> 
> That's what the Pathmark thread is for!
> 
> Karl


:icon_smile_big:


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

Bush and the Republicans are evil incarnate, but the Democrats who push this sort of thing are merely "spineless"?

Wait, let me guess -- Democrats have good _intentions_, right?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Phinn,

Exactly! Democrats just CARE more. But as we all know, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Karl


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

Phinn said:


> Wait, let me guess -- Democrats have good _intentions_, right?


Of course, Republicans hate America and want to take over like the fascists they are. When the Democrats gut the constitution it's to protect children from evil corporations.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

jbmcb,



jbmcb said:


> Of course, Republicans hate America and want to take over like the fascists they are. When the Democrats gut the constitution it's to protect children from evil corporations.


You forgot to add that Republican also long for the return to the days of back alley abortions. I believe FrankDC likes to use that old chesnut from time to time.

Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> ...Bush petulantly announced that he didn't like the Democrats' bill and threatened to hold Congress hostage, preventing them from adjourning for August, until he got "a bill I can sign."


Yes, because Dubya is the first POTUS *EVER* to use this tactic. Damn, for a moron, he's just an evil genius, isn't he?


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> Yes, because Dubya is the first POTUS *EVER* to use this tactic. Damn, for a moron, he's just an evil genius, isn't he?


:icon_smile_big:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

TMMKC said:


> :icon_smile_big:


OH BEHAVE! (in my best Austin Power's voice).


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> Yes, because Dubya is the first POTUS EVER to use this tactic. Damn, for a moron, he's just an evil genius, isn't he?


Well, he has Darth Rove for that sort of thing. The genius of His Rove-ness knows no bounds. There's no Democrat failure that cannot, given sufficient effort, be traced back to a diabolical Rovian conspiracy.


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

FrankDC said:


> Congrats to Bush and spineless Democrats for doing what bin Laden and al Qaeda couldn't hope to accomplish in their wildest dreams.
> 
> "To secure access to the telecommunications switches inside the United States, which the NSA had simply asked for in the past, the new law obliges phone and Internet companies to create back doors for eavesdroppers; if they don't comply, they can be held in contempt. And best of all, there's no longer an audit of abuses by the DoJ's inspector general."
> 
> ...




I work at a major telecom company and we've had to comply with CALEA (and have been spending lots of money on it) for years. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

"Had to comply" has never been codified into law, until now.

If anyone needs definitive proof America has become just another totalitarian shithole, they need look no further than the responses in this thread.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> "Had to comply" has never been codified into law, until now.
> 
> If anyone needs definitive proof America has become just another totalitarian shithole, they need look no further than the responses in this thread.


Just the fact you are posting this should give one pause to consider the veracity of the statement. Insight: it's a wonderful thing.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

FrankDC,



FrankDC said:


> "
> If anyone needs definitive proof America has become just another totalitarian shithole, they need look no further than the responses in this thread.


If the US is a totalitarian shithole as you write, then what words do you use to describe North Korea, Burma or Zimbabwe? You undoubtedly suffer from an inability to understand the nuances of language and a real poverty of imagination to reach the conclusions you do.

Karl


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

North Korea is good because it has free food, shelter, and health care for everyone. In the US the people have to pay banks and corporations. The Repubs care only about the big banks and corps, whereas the Dems care about the people. Sooner or later we'll have free food, shelter, and health care too. Power to the people!!!!


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Mike Petrik said:


> North Korea is good because it has free food, shelter, and health care for everyone. In the US the people have to pay banks and corporations. The Repubs care only about the big banks and corps, whereas the Dems care about the people. Sooner or later we'll have free food, shelter, and health care too. Power to the people!!!!


Oh, that's right. The Republicans are to blame for all that, plus pestulance, locust, etc. How could I forget? They care, or pre neo-con, at least USED to care...care enough to expect people to stop waiting for the goverment to solve all their problems. Again, that's probably a GOP from a bygone are...but I get all misty-eyed over that.

Speaking of shitholes, has anyone heard anything from Albania or Bangladesh recently?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> FrankDC,
> 
> If the US is a totalitarian shithole as you write, then what words do you use to describe North Korea, Burma or Zimbabwe? You undoubtedly suffer from an inability to understand the nuances of language and a real poverty of imagination to reach the conclusions you do.
> 
> Karl


Forget imagination. Face simple fact: The U.S. has a higher percentage of its citizens behind jailbars than either Burma or Zimbabwe. In fact we now have the highest incarceration rates in the world, except for North Korea:

https://www.populistamerica.com/incarceration_nation_the_rise_of_a_prison_industrial_complex

Land of the Free? Not.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

FrankDC,

And what percentage of those people are there for drug crimes? I would argue that we need to decriminalize some drugs but the fact is that it is well known that drugs are illegal and it also true that the US generally (there are exceptions) affords people due process in the criminal justice system. No one is arguing that the US is perfect.

But let me ask you Frank, as you seem to really dislike everything about this country and you view it as a totalitarian shithole, why do you stay? There are host of garden spots around the world that would be happy to have you.

Your incessant tantrums, lies and hatred for the US is tiresome. And no one here takes you seriously and I suspect that is also true of the greater world as well.

Karl


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

FrankDC said:


> Forget imagination. Face simple fact: The U.S. has a higher percentage of its citizens behind jailbars than either Burma or Zimbabwe. In fact we now have the highest incarceration rates in the world, except for North Korea:
> 
> https://www.populistamerica.com/incarceration_nation_the_rise_of_a_prison_industrial_complex
> 
> Land of the Free? Not.


I'm sorry but let me get this straight. You're making a case for law, order and freedom and the places you select are Burma and Zimbabwe. We're down a real bunny hole now. Down is apparently up and up has apparently left the building.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Karl89 said:


> FrankDC,
> 
> And what percentage of those people are there for drug crimes? I would argue that we need to decriminalize some drugs but the fact is that it is well known that drugs are illegal and it also true that the US generally (there are exceptions) affords people due process in the criminal justice system. No one is arguing that the US is perfect.
> 
> ...


Judging from the responses in this thread, apparently you do speak for everyone here.

As for my original point, I rest my case.

And as for leaving, I plan on staying long enough to see the current set of morally bankrupt White House occupants replaced with another set of morally bankrupt occupants. Then it'll definitely be time to go.

In the meantime, have a gander at what the Leader of the Free World has been up to lately:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/news/orders/

The guy's got absolutely nothing on Kim Jong-Il.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Mark from Plano said:


> I'm sorry but let me get this straight. You're making a case for law, order and freedom and the places you select are Burma and Zimbabwe. We're down a real bunny hole now. Down is apparently up and up has apparently left the building.


Those were Karl's selections not mine.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> And as for leaving, I plan on staying long enough to see the current set of morally bankrupt White House occupants replaced with another set of morally bankrupt occupants. Then it'll definitely be time to go.


Could you please share with the group? Where are you bound Frank?


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

TMMKC said:


> Speaking of shitholes, has anyone heard anything from Albania or Bangladesh recently?


Bangladesh is where all the IT and textile jobs are going from the aforementioned shithole. In a few years ask andy may be moderated from there, and the clothes everyone talks about may be made there. :icon_smile:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> Bangladesh is where all the IT and textile jobs are going from the aforementioned shithole. In a few years ask andy may be moderated from there, and the clothes everyone talks about may be made there. :icon_smile:


Most of my clothes are already made in Asia. Where in lies the problem?


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> Could you please share with the group? Where are you bound Frank?


Albania?


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Could you please share with the group? Where are you bound Frank?


I don't claim to speak for FrankDC, but I think he would fit in just fine in many European countries (Germany, France, Sweden, etc.) Even here in Canada, he would be just another NDP party member. His remarks are quite bold by American standards, but would still be considered pretty mainstream by many left leaning people in those countries.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> I don't claim to speak for FrankDC, but I think he would fit in just fine in many European countries (Germany, France, Sweden, etc.) Even here in Canada, he would be just another NDP party member. His remarks are quite bold by American standards, but would still be considered pretty mainstream by many left leaning people in those countries.


I was unaware that Frank's stated views really were either "left" or "right". He just seems sadly self-loathing and manifests it in his rather irrational rants. I do not know anyone in Canada, my homeland, where all my family is, that thinks the US is a "totalitarian shithole". In fact, most Canadians seem to have a problem with all the freedoms in the US, not the other way around.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> I was unaware that Frank's stated views really were either "left" or "right". He just seems sadly self-loathing and manifests it in his rather irrational rants. I do not know anyone in Canada, my homeland, where all my family is, that thinks the US is a "totalitarian shithole". In fact, most Canadians seem to have a problem with all the freedoms in the US, not the other way around.


If it's not obvious, you're not paying attention. I'm struggling to figure out what freedoms that Americans have that Canadians have a problem with.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> If it's not obvious, you're not paying attention.


No, I'm paying attention, it is you that is not. He bashes the US left in this very thread. Go back and read.



FrankDC said:


> Congrats to Bush and* spineless Democrats* for doing what bin Laden and al Qaeda couldn't hope to accomplish in their wildest dreams.





omairp said:


> I'm struggling to figure out what freedoms that Americans have that Canadians have a problem with.


How about being able to pay for top flight medical care on demand and not be wait listed? There's a big one. Carrying concealed weapons? First Amendment rights? Much less burdensome taxation? I was just speaking with my brother tonight and he was talking about a 63% increase on a water levy in Windsor, Ontario. As I keep reminding him, just be glad it's a levy and not a tax :icon_smile_big: Just like that big one on OHIP now.

Buying liquor at the grocery store vs. a government run retail outlet? There's a great one.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

His remark about "spineless democrats" just re-iterates that he is further to the left than lots of center-left democrats (presumably the spineless ones.) I have never found myself in want of these freedoms you cite, as the costs simply outweigh the benefits, unless you're a Tory or Republican. :icon_smile:


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

omairp said:


> Bangladesh is where all the IT and textile jobs are going from the aforementioned shithole. In a few years ask andy may be moderated from there, and the clothes everyone talks about may be made there. :icon_smile:


Some IT jobs sure, but not the network, repair or security guys. Besides, there are an awful lot of job openings for security, Linux admins, Oracle dba's and Cisco techs...at least in this area.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

omairp said:


> His remark about "spineless democrats" just re-iterates that he is further to the left than lots of center-left democrats (presumably the spineless ones.)


That's neither accurate nor fair. I participate in nearly a dozen online discussion forums and this is the only one where I'm construed as some kind of freaking communist. Believe it or not, a substantial majority of Americans were against the Vietnam occupation, a substantial majority are against the current occupation of Iraq, a very substantial majority believe the country is headed in the wrong direction etc etc.

The Republicans got thrown out of power last year for specific reasons (Iraq, the ongoing power grabs by the Executive Branch etc), and the Democrats have completely caved in on almost every one of these issues. I'm far from being the only person who's ranting about this spinelessness.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

And yet the approval ratings for the Democratically controlled congress are under 30%.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> That's neither accurate nor fair. I participate in nearly a dozen online discussion forums and this is the only one where I'm construed as some kind of freaking communist. Believe it or not, a substantial majority of Americans were against the Vietnam occupation, a substantial majority are against the current occupation of Iraq, a very substantial majority believe the country is headed in the wrong direction etc etc.
> 
> The Republicans got thrown out of power last year for specific reasons (Iraq, the ongoing power grabs by the Executive Branch etc), and the Democrats have completely caved in on almost every one of these issues. I'm far from being the only person who's ranting about this spinelessness.


OK, than for the record, do you have any political affiliations of any kind or any political inspirations you can point to?


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Frank, if you haven't noticed, one of the significant differences between liberal and conservative is that a liberal is willing to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it; a conservative is unwilling to either entertain or accept an idea unless he's already had it. And even then, he's dubious.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Do any of ya think our founding fathers, ever considered that things would deterioriate to this point? Is that "Nero" I hear playing in the background?


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## Title III Guy (Mar 18, 2007)

_"Congrats to Bush and spineless Democrats for doing what bin Laden and al Qaeda couldn't hope to accomplish in their wildest dreams."_ - FrankDC

Correct me if I am wrong, Mr. FrankDC, but wouldn't the "wildest dreams" of bin Laden and al Qaeda be less about government interception of telecommunications and more about killing each and every non-believer in the world?

T3G


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> I have never found myself in want of these freedoms you cite, as the costs simply outweigh the benefits, unless you're a Tory or Republican. :icon_smile:


False dichotomy. There is a wider range of choices than those two. And I find even wealthy Democrats will pony up buckets of cash to get their sick child health care.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip said:


> Frank, if you haven't noticed, one of the significant differences between liberal and conservative is that a liberal is willing to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it; a conservative is unwilling to either entertain or accept an idea unless he's already had it. And even then, he's dubious.


rip, then there is a large passel of Dems that are conservative. The prejudice displayed against Romney's religion by so many Dems demonstrates this.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

rip said:


> Frank, if you haven't noticed, one of the significant differences between liberal and conservative is that a liberal is willing to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it; a conservative is unwilling to either entertain or accept an idea unless he's already had it. And even then, he's dubious.


Actually this a complete freaking lie. Liberals haven't entertained a new idea in 40 years. They keep retreading the same old tired ideas. It's conservatives that have driven the debate in the US for the last 40 years and the liberals who have, without reexamining their positions, simply either supported the status quo or relied on the "make the government pay for it." mantra.

Examples:
Education advancement: Conservatives came up with the new idea of vouchers to permit individual choice in school funding. Liberals' best answer is to keep the status quo and just increase government funding.

Social Security Reform: Conservatives proposed allowing individuals to either remain in the current system or, alternatively, elect to have more control over how the contributions to the system are being used. Liberals best answer is to keep the status quo and just increase government funding.

Welfare Reform: Conservatives proposed (and passed as part of the 1994 Contract with America) a sweeping overhaul of the welfare system designed to get money to people who truly needed it and wean those who could work off the system. It was passed over significant liberal objection and only signed by Clinton because his conservative political advisor told him it would allow him to run to the center in the 1996 elections. Today it is so successful, everyone attributes the move exclusively to Clinton. The liberal counterproposal was of course, to maintain the status quo and increase government funding.

Of course the great quest of the libs now (domestically at least) is to socialize health care, which every experiment says will restrict access and decrease technological advancement. But at the end of the day the liberals are addicted to increasing government funding.

I hate to break it to you, but that's not entertaining a new idea. It's applying a failed idea to every situation. There's nothing enlighted about that.


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> No, I'm paying attention, it is you that is not. He bashes the US left in this very thread. Go back and read.
> 
> How about being able to pay for top flight medical care on demand and not be wait listed? There's a big one. Carrying concealed weapons? First Amendment rights? Much less burdensome taxation? I was just speaking with my brother tonight and he was talking about a 63% increase on a water levy in Windsor, Ontario. As I keep reminding him, just be glad it's a levy and not a tax :icon_smile_big: Just like that big one on OHIP now.
> 
> *Buying liquor at the grocery store vs. a government run retail outlet? There's a great one.*


Two observations about that one in particular -- first off, liquor availability is under provincial jurisdiction, so what holds for Ontario does not for Alberta. Second, the LCBO actually provides an excellent service -- I bet their general listings provide more selection than your local "package store" ...


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Mark from Plano said:


> Actually this a complete freaking lie. Liberals haven't entertained a new idea in 40 years. They keep retreading the same old tired ideas. It's conservatives that have driven the debate in the US for the last 40 years and the liberals who have, without reexamining their positions, simply either supported the status quo or relied on the "make the government pay for it." mantra.
> 
> Examples:
> Education advancement: Conservatives came up with the new idea of vouchers to permit individual choice in school funding. Liberals' best answer is to keep the status quo and just increase government funding.
> ...


+10,000


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

eg1 said:


> Two observations about that one in particular -- first off, liquor availability is under provincial jurisdiction, so what holds for Ontario does not for Alberta. Second, the LCBO actually provides an excellent service -- I bet their general listings provide more selection than your local "package store" ...


I realize the per province nature, but to my knowledge, all provinces regulate the sales in a similar fashion. Not exact like Ontario's, but similar. You seem to keep forgetting I am Canadian.

As to the listings. Roll your eyes back there son. I mentioned the grocery store as representative of ease of use and accessibility. If you want to challenge listings, a "Vintages" outlet is where you need to go at the LCBO. Limited allocations, limited choices vs. what someone can get in the US. Trust me on this. Heck, I just bought a case of Loring pinots a few days ago online after getting emailed my allocation from the winery. Try doing that.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Title III Guy said:


> _"Congrats to Bush and spineless Democrats for doing what bin Laden and al Qaeda couldn't hope to accomplish in their wildest dreams."_ - FrankDC
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, Mr. FrankDC, but wouldn't the "wildest dreams" of bin Laden and al Qaeda be less about government interception of telecommunications and more about killing each and every non-believer in the world?
> 
> T3G


No. If they killed every infidel in the world they'd have few people to sell their oil to.

As with almost all battles waged ostensibly for religious purposes, this current one has absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with money and political power. Bin Laden's/al Qaeda's goal from the beginning has been to depose the current Saudi government and gain control of his country's oil reserves. It started in the 1990's with bin Laden setting off car bombs in Saudi Arabia, and when the Saudi government turned down his request to head up the effort to throw Hussein out of Kuwait, as he had done with the USSR in Afghanistan, and instead allied themselves with the U.S. and UK to handle Hussein, that's when bin Laden started complaining about U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia, and that's when al Qaeda turned their attention toward the U.S. and Britain.

All of this history is covered in the 911 Commission Report.

Remember what the 911 perpetrators did the night before the attack? They went to a strip club. Don't delude yourselves into believing this has something to do with Islam. Islam (and the Palestinian cause, etc) is simply fodder for political support.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> No. If they killed every infidel in the world they'd have few people to sell their oil to.
> 
> As with almost all battles waged ostensibly for religious purposes, this current one has absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with money and political power. Bin Laden's/al Qaeda's goal from the beginning has been to depose the current Saudi government and gain control of his country's oil reserves. It started in the 1990's with bin Laden setting off car bombs in Saudi Arabia, and when the Saudi government turned down his request to head up the effort to throw Hussein out of Kuwait, as he had done with the USSR in Afghanistan, and instead allied themselves with the U.S. and UK to handle Hussein, that's when bin Laden started complaining about U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia, and that's when al Qaeda turned their attention toward the U.S. and Britain.
> 
> ...


Why did they need to go to a strip club? Weren't they going to receive 70 virgins the next day?


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## Title III Guy (Mar 18, 2007)

_"Remember what the 911 perpetrators did the night before the attack? *They went to a strip club*. Don't delude yourselves into believing this has something to do with Islam. Islam (and the Palestinian cause, etc) is simply fodder for political support."_ - FrankDC

I feel no more comforted by knowing they're hypocrites as well as murderers.

But really, Mr. FrankDC, don't you think that persons willing to fly airplanes into buildings whilst still on them, or strap bombs to their persons and detonate them whilst still wearing them - don't you think those people _may_ have been less interested in "political support" and more interested in killing in the name of their religion?

T3G


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I think the leaders may be cynical, but the suicide bombers and run of the mill guys probably have a religious agenda. They have nothing to gain in an earthly sense by killing themselves.


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

eg1 said:


> Two observations about that one in particular -- first off, liquor availability is under provincial jurisdiction, so what holds for Ontario does not for Alberta. Second, the LCBO actually provides an excellent service -- I bet their general listings provide more selection than your local "package store" ...




To be perfectly fair, regulation of alcohol distribution is a state issue and there are states where the government sells the liquor (New Hampshire, Pennsylvania as examples):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States_by_state


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I think the leaders may be cynical, but the suicide bombers and run of the mill guys probably have a religious agenda. They have nothing to gain in an earthly sense by killing themselves.


According to the 911 Report only a few of the 19 assailants knew it was a suicide mission; the others thought it was just a hijacking. But I agree with your point. There's never been a shortage of people who're easily misled.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> According to the 911 Report only a few of the 19 assailants knew it was a suicide mission; the others thought it was just a hijacking. *But I agree with your point.* There's never been a shortage of people who're easily misled.


But his point was in refutation to yours. Don't you mean to say, "I was wrong. You have corrected me"?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I just found this.After 6 years,they still have it up.

https://www.september11news.com/


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> False dichotomy. There is a wider range of choices than those two.


Like when G.W. said "you're either with us or against us"?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> Like when G.W. said "you're either with us or against us"?


Yup, exactly like that. Glad you see your error :icon_smile_big:


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

omairp said:


> Like when G.W. said "you're either with us or against us"?


That's one of the most frequent misquotations of the whole Bush presidency. The actual quote is, "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists."

I've found that anyone who quotes it as "against us" has about a 99% likelihood of being a Leftist, for some reason.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Howard said:


> I just found this.After 6 years,they still have it up.
> 
> https://www.september11news.com/


I love how they have a section devoted to the number 11 as being part of some Da Vinci Code-like conspiracy.

https://www.september11news.com/Mysteries2.htm


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Onward Christian soldiers, marching into war. With the cross of Jesus ...

https://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QUECGG1&show_article=1


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

"Every nation has to either be *with us, or against us*. Those who harbor terrorists, or who finance them, are going to pay a price."

-- Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) (September 13, 2001)

https://www.wavsource.com/news/20010911a.htm


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I figured out what Frank is watching ...


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Heh, thanks for the laugh. This is what I was actually watching when I read your post:






Hope I can belt out screams like that when I'm in my mid-60's.


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> I realize the per province nature, but to my knowledge, all provinces regulate the sales in a similar fashion. Not exact like Ontario's, but similar. You seem to keep forgetting I am Canadian.
> 
> As to the listings. Roll your eyes back there son. I mentioned the grocery store as representative of ease of use and accessibility. If you want to challenge listings, a "Vintages" outlet is where you need to go at the LCBO. Limited allocations, limited choices vs. what someone can get in the US. Trust me on this. Heck, I just bought a case of Loring pinots a few days ago online after getting emailed my allocation from the winery. Try doing that.


I realize that you are Canadian by birth, but I don't really know which province you hail from.

I also have no idea what listings are available to you locally. All I know is that I have several very good Vintages locations nearby (3 in Burlington alone, along with an outstanding location in Mississauga), and I suspect that their selection is beyond anything in the other 9 provinces and most US locations (not to mention prices).
But hey, I am more than willing to be proven wrong! :icon_smile_big:


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

eg1 said:


> I realize that you are Canadian by birth, but I don't really know which province you hail from.
> 
> I also have no idea what listings are available to you locally. All I know is that I have several very good Vintages locations nearby (3 in Burlington alone, along with an outstanding location in Mississauga), and I suspect that their selection is beyond anything in the other 9 provinces and most US locations (not to mention prices).
> But hey, I am more than willing to be proven wrong! :icon_smile_big:


It is no longer that simple in the US. Most of the good wineries in Cali and Oregeon...and even WA now...have "clubs" or mailing lists that let you get dibs on their offerings. For instance, Loring just sent out email for the release of the 2005's, for those on their list. I purchased a mixed case and they will hold them until the weather cools down for safe shipping. Of course, I can also get most bottlings at wine shops, but this is exactly my point, multiple sources for the product.

Vintages, good as they can be, are not up to snuff of the best US outlets by any means. For instance, their offering of 2006 Bordeaux futures included zero, yes zero, first growth offerings. Often too, pricing is not that good, a specific instance could be July's release of Joseph Phelps Chardonnay at $52 which is about $20 (or about 40%) more than you can get in the US. This is just a specific bottling that came to my attention, but the total lack of first growth Bordeaux is unforgivable IMO, when you figure the consumer has only this government monopoly to deal with in Ontario.

My point of course was that in fact, the government in most states allows a much more free market in alcohol sales, increasing both availability and access as well as selection while congruently decreasing pricing.

Here is an actual price list of first growth releases in Calgary. Why the entire province of Ontario loses out I do not know, but for the interested reader, here is what you can get in Calgary and the price (CA $):

Calon Segur - $228
Lafon Rochet - $147
Montrose - $357
Clerc Milon - $177
Forts de Latour - $381
Lafite - $1995
Lynch Bages - $276
Mouton Rothschild - $2280
Pontet Canet - 294
Haut Bailly - 255
Mission Haut Brion - 2025
Ausone - 3285
Pavie - 1080
Palmer - 825
Leoville Las Cases - 825
Leoville Poyferre - 279

You can view what was actually available from Vintages at: https://www.vintages.com/futures/bordeaux-futures-2006/bordeaux-futures-2006_list.html This should show you that you are incorrect, Alberta has better offerings than Ontario. Also of note, Alberta is the only province to privatize the sales of alcoholic beverages. I will leave it to you to decide if there is a co-relation between private outlets and better selection vs. Ontario.

A further note to pricing, for prior years the Vintage price is usually current price +100%. Yes, double what a bottle is going for in France.

Well, if you want to argue further over this, go for it. I am sure I just thoroughly bored most people here, except for maybe cuffthis, and will call it quits at this.

Cheers


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## eg1 (Jan 17, 2007)

Nope -- no interest in arguing about it. Just thought that the LCBO was doing a pretty good job. Mind you the taxes are obnoxious :crazy: 

Oh, and those items you listed available in Calgary are way, way out of my league


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I think September 11 stories will keep going on for years.People cannot get the tragedy out of their minds,It still seems fresh.


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