# Preppy: a New Generation takes hold (photos)...



## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Came across this series of photos from some frathouse event somewhere. I was going to offer 'witty' comments, but I think the photos should speak for themselves, which they do quite 'in yer face'. Let me just say this: would it kill young men to just wear boat shoes instead of flip-flops? Anyway, let's get started...

This is 'Bornstein' and "his crew'. He seems to be the BMOC at this event and presumably one of the prime movers behind it.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

The rest of these photos are random.



Bornstein again, with mates.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

I don't understand the flip flops either, but at least this crew is better dressed than most on college campuses.

Brian


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

All I can say is: necklace, bracelet, flip flops, sideburns, ridiculous color combos, gangsta hand jestures....oh please.

Mr. Bornstein and his "crew" need to either do it right, or put their acid washed jeans back on and give up the experiment.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Kids, what's the matter with kids these days? Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Tom Buchanan_
> 
> All I can say is: necklace, bracelet, flip flops, sideburns, ridiculous color combos, gangsta hand jestures....oh please.
> 
> Mr. Bornstein and his "crew" need to either do it right, or put their acid washed jeans back on and give up the experiment.


Amen, but this is also what you see a lot of at Conn.

The yuppies have taken over. There is little true prep left.


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## 1984 (May 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by vwguy_
> 
> I don't understand the flip flops either, but at least this crew is better dressed than most on college campuses.
> 
> Brian


Indeed!

-Joshua


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> The yuppies have taken over. There is little true prep left.


Meanwhile, back at Eton. . .

And elsewhere in the UK?

Images of a forgotten age for the most part.

It seems the "prep school" of today is not what it once was, on either side of the Atlantic.

And don't get me started about the hippie-era throwbacks on the faculty at my alma mater. Puh-lease!

.....................
: David G. Pihl :
.....................


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## Sweetness (Aug 25, 2005)

I think the photos capture the J. Crew "preppy" kid very well, in terms of rainbow sandals, bright shorts, and a polo shirt well, but this is not a preppy look at all. The double-collar popping is ridiculous, I think they're funneling punch (who does that?), they're wearing eurotrash sunglasses w/o croakies, etc. The list could go on, but I wouldn't consider this "preppy" except in the most liberal sense.


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## JBZ (Mar 28, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Louis M_
> 
> II think they're funneling punch (who does that?)


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Louis M_I think they're funneling punch (who does that?)


Yes, these kids should be funneling beer!

Brian


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

If they're funneling punch, perhaps it's a punch made with pure grain alcohol? (Voice of experience: don't drink grain alcohol punch at a party unless you've helped mix it yourself and know how strong it is. Also give it a good stir before ladling because water and alcohol have different densities. Otherwise you don't know what you're getting and can't pace yourself like you can with beer or mixed drinks. I once went to a fraternity party and had two or three cups of grain alcohol punch to no effect. I complained good-naturedly to the hosts, as I often did in those days. Much later in the evening and after many drinks elsewhere I came back and decided I would drink all that was left at the bottom of their punch bowl because I knew how weak it was. I blacked out for the next several hours. Perhaps they had mixed a new batch in the interim?)

Maybe the gang hand signs are meant in a purely satirical, ironic way. These look like well-fed, clean-cut youngsters from the suburbs.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Funnelling? That is a beer bong!

I suppose it could be a jungle juice bong.

Punch? Pshaw!


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## JBZ (Mar 28, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> Maybe the gang hand signs are meant in a purely satirical, ironic way.


Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say these guys aren't members of an actual street gang...


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## Sweetness (Aug 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JBZ_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's the "East Side Gang," they scare Trads with logos, cargo pants and flip-flops.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by dpihl_


 Thank-you for the restful photographs. They were the perfect antitote for having to suffer seeing the hooligans at the top of the thread.


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## Sweetness (Aug 25, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by VS_
> 
> Funnelling? That is a beer bong!
> 
> ...


I'm just saying I've never seen someone beer bong punch, it just seems like a purely bad idea. The whole concept of the bong is to have 24 (or more) ounces in only a few seconds. That is roughly equivalent of about 10 shots in the matter of a few seconds. Therefore, they're probably funneling Hi-C, which means that they're not drinking alcohol, which is NOT preppy.


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

Doc Damage,

Do you know where these kids go to school?

ASF


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by VS_
> 
> Funnelling? That is a beer bong!
> 
> ...


At my fraternity, we always called that a funnel, but they were filled with beer, not punch. We had beer bongs too, but a beer bong was a water-pipe that had had the water replaced with beer and it was used for smoking, uh, tobacco.


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## Sweetness (Aug 25, 2005)

> quote:
> a beer bong was a water-pipe that had had the water replaced with beer and it was used for smoking, uh, tobacco.


What else would you smoke out of a bong? The smoking paraphernalia industry only caters to those that smoke tobacco out of bongs, right?


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## 3button Max (Feb 6, 2006)

these are the offspring of yuppies! worse yet possible future masters of the universe.
max


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think kids use bongs for smoking substances anymore. There is no deniability if someone sees one of those in your room. "That? Erm, it's a... planter!"

It is true that you wouldn't drink jungle juice or other punch/liquor concoction with the help of gravity. I think that is red/amber lager.

God, I drink too much.


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## winn (Dec 31, 2005)

Hello DD -

The photos of Bornstein et al are at Princeton University. The giveaway to me was in the photo of "Bornstein, again with mates" as they walk down Prospect Street. The view behind them is the 1879 Arch at the corner of Washington Road and Prospect Street.

Cheers,
Winn


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

I guess the purpose of this thread was to (1) share, share, share, and to (2) illustrate what we had discussed back in January about trad vs preppy and how the torch has passed, but only a tiny flicker.

*JLPWCXIII*: More photos on Monday. It only gets better. Or should that be 'better'?

*ASF*: Will dig out the link on Monday for you.

*dpihl*: Excellent finds, even if I immediately think of AC/DC when I see those old school uniforms ("You, shook me aaaaalll night long").

I really, really hope Bornstein does a Google search for his name and comes up with this forum. Please God, you can keep world peace, I just want Bornstein to find this forum.

DocD


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Tom Buchanan_
> 
> All I can say is: necklace, bracelet, flip flops, sideburns, ridiculous color combos, gangsta hand jestures....oh please.
> 
> Mr. Bornstein and his "crew" need to either do it right, or put their acid washed jeans back on and give up the experiment.


Sideburns? You call those little wisps sideburns? On second glance, these fellows are mostly not too far off. I see lots of polo shirts, flat front trousers and shorts, button-down collars, and decent belts. There is nothing at all to complain about in the fellow at the far right of the first of the random photographs (same guy is pictured again holding up the funnel).

Twenty years ago I had fraternity brothers who were alumni of St. Paul's, Middlesex, Andover, Cate, Collegiate, Choate, Deerfield, NMH, Groton, Hotchkiss -- some of them wore bracelets and flip-flops. Don't remember any necklaces. But we've discussed the Prep School Deadhead phenomenon before.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> The yuppies have taken over. There is little true prep left.


Omigosh, I feel like we're living 1984 all over again!


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by vwguy_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could it be an Ivy League alpenhorn?


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## Bowdoin (Dec 9, 2004)

That's Princeton. And I'd guess from the backgrounds that these guys are freshmen in Wilson College.


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

DD, I like the wee hottie in the foreground of the second photo. I particularly like the way she eats her icecream


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

One of the things about getting older is that you've seen most things before...

Having said that, isn't it good to see Trad alive and well and full of so much energy?

Mark my words, Bornstein and crew will go on to great things.
Nothing stuck in the past about them - They are re-inventing Trad for themselves and carrying the evolution of the style on into the future.

No Bornstein - No future.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> DD, I like the wee hottie in the foreground of the second photo. I particularly like the way she eats her icecream


Me too - in fact the photo really needs some speech balloons... But maybe they're better left to the imagination (there might be trouble with Malinda).


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> DD, I like the wee hottie in the foreground of the second photo. I particularly like the way she eats her icecream


Is it just me, or does she look like Mia Sara (Matthew Broderick's girlfriend in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off")?


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

The youth holding the beer bong will be a congressman. The kid doing the drinking, a senator.

The figure mostly obscured by the future senator will be head of Halliburton. He will give the other two their marching orders for the rest of their lives.

23 Skidoo.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

The figure mostly obscured by the future senator will be head of Halliburton. He will give the other two their marching orders for the rest of their lives.

23 Skidoo.

Good call 

Brian


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## Tiff_Bradley (Dec 7, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Chet_
> 
> One of the things about getting older is that you've seen most things before...
> 
> ...


Good call Chet, let's cut these guys some slack, they are the future whether the rest of you like it or not.

TB


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Chet_
> 
> isn't it good to see Trad alive and well and full of so much energy?


I'd much rather see kids dressing like that, as opposed to trying to look like rap stars/thugs in XXXL clothes with their pants hanging down to their knees. [xx(]


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

And how 'bout those ladies? 



Behold, the GTH Polo shirt.



Nice shorts.



Croquet, anyone?


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by KentW_
> Behold, the GTH Polo shirt.


This shirt is on sale at my local outlet, I'll still pass on it though 

Brian


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm having flashbacks. Need to adjust my meds. . .wait, I don't take any meds. This is bad. And I distinctly thought I saw Espadrilles.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

That's settled it. Enough is enough. I'm going back to Levis, workshirts and work boots. Did I mention my ponytail?


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

I am surprised and delighted at how well dressed American students are compared to British ones.

Trimmer


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by DougNZ_
> 
> DD, I like the wee hottie in the foreground of the second photo. I particularly like the way she eats her icecream.


Noticed that too. Gotta exercise those jaw muscles!

*Chet*: Welcome, new member! Your last name isn't...nah.

Seeing these photos, and especially the ones posted by KentW, kind of just killed any thoughts I had of buying some GTH pants/shorts. Maybe a pair of seersucker pants, nothing else. Just grey flannels and khakis from now on. And white BDs and polos.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Seeing these photos, and especially the ones posted by KentW, kind of just killed any thoughts I had of buying some GTH pants/shorts.


For me, it killed any thoughts of wearing flip-flops any place other than the beach or locker room.


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## Sweetness (Aug 25, 2005)

Am I the only one who hates how almost of them are dressed? Although there's only so much you can tell from photos, it just seems like an act for everyone. People are grabbing their collars to let people know that it's popped, the kid wearing the madras patchwork is wearing a trucker hat, etc. To be honest, it looks like a bunch of normal kids who got into Princeton and put on a "preppy" act.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Louis M_
> 
> To be honest, it looks like a bunch of normal kids who got into Princeton and put on a "preppy" act.


I suspect you are right. I suspect it is similar to what we did when the Official Preppy Handbook first came out, which I related in another thread on this site:



> quote:I have an interesting OPH story.
> 
> When the book came out, I and most of my cousins were all away at college or grad school. Every year, my extended family has a large Christmas party, with all the relatives and friends showing up, maybe 200 people.
> 
> ...


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

> quote:To be honest, it looks like a bunch of normal kids who got into Princeton and put on a "preppy" act.


Maybe at Princeton this would happen, I don't know, but from my experience, regular kids who are admitted to Ivys or other elite colleges still look pretty much like regular kids after four years, and the kids who prepped, either have taken thier "preppy" look to the point of insanity (kelly green cords, pink grosgrain everything, butter yellow shetlands, and girls with every Vera Bradley bag known to man) or look like roadies for the Dead.

Southeastern Pennsylvania Trad Authority


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Beresford_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, except these kids are not as well dressed as one who was copying the OPH would dress.

I am also becoming irritated at the random people who show up just to tell us that these poseurs "are the future and there is nothing WE can do about it" as if we are outdated fools or something.

You can't "reinvent" trad. Trad is trad, which is the point. The 1970s reinvented suits for a bit. One doesn't reinvent the 3-button sack. One might make slight adjustments to the roll, or make the cuffs slightly bigger or smaller, but it is still basically the same thing.

Double flagged purple and green collars makes one look like Barney or a "preppy" from the RL-J.Crew catalog, not a Trad.

Septa is right too, at least as far as my alma mater was concerned. One either went all out or blended in with the normal shabby dressers by the end, particularly the girls.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

Politics (and legacy admissions) aside, one must admit that Mr Bush's days at Yale were on a far higher sartorial plane than those of today's youth:

,


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

I actually am psyched if "preppy" is coming back. Among other things, if we are now cycling back through the Eighties style-wise I can bring out some really nice skinny trad/preppy ties that have been sitting on a tie rack in my closet for the past 20 years!


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Louis M_
> 
> I think the photos capture the J. Crew "preppy" kid very well, in terms of rainbow sandals, bright shorts, and a polo shirt well, but this is not a preppy look at all. The double-collar popping is ridiculous, I think they're funneling punch (who does that?), they're wearing eurotrash sunglasses w/o croakies, etc. The list could go on, but I wouldn't consider this "preppy" except in the most liberal sense.


Right on.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Here are some more preppy kid shots I found, allegedly from the Foxfield Races in Charlottesville:


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

The standards for what constitutes preppy have gotten awfully loose then if all one has to do is throw on an untucked stripey shirt and a ribbon belt. Backward baseball hat?

Are we sure we aren't confusing American Eagle fratboys with the genuine article?

Girls in the top shot are cute though


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Beresford_
> 
> I actually am psyched if "preppy" is coming back. Among other things, if we are now cycling back through the Eighties style-wise I can bring out some really nice skinny trad/preppy ties that have been sitting on a tie rack in my closet for the past 20 years!


Hmmm. My brother once told me a story about how during the 1970s Ronald Reagan saved all of his narrow ties because he knew that eventually they would come back in fashion, but George H.W. Bush never stopped wearing his.


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## JSE (Oct 4, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Beresford_
> 
> Here are some more preppy kid shots I found, allegedly from the Foxfield Races in Charlottesville:


One thing you have to consider about many horse races around the South, Foxfields, Strawberry Hill, Carolina Cup, etc., is that many people intentionally dress as preppy as possible. You might see someone at Carolina Cup wearing green seersucker pants, pink OCBD, and lime green bowtie. However, that same person would normally be seen wearing khakis, white or blue OCBD, and repp bowtie. The extreme preppiness is part of the occasion.

-JSE


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## AsherNM (Apr 3, 2006)

Kudos to the girls for dressing relatively modestly.

GTH clothing is excusable only if you are handsome, IMO. The fattie in patch polo, alas, is not.

Our "Congressman" here seems alright. I dress similarly, except I never roll my sleeves, unbutton the second to top button, or leave the collar unbuttoned.


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear Coolidge24,

You are right and you are wrong.
I have seen Trad evolve since around 1952 when I first became aware of these things. 
I have seen the basic sack turn skinny, baloon out, do anything else you care to mention. 
I have seen the "Fogey" mood of the moment come and go and the youthfull "Preppy" element do likewise.
The basic elements stay the same it is true, but they way in which they are worn and the styling details have always varied over roughly 5 year intervals.
Whatever the future is, Coolidge, it is not you or I. We will return to the dust from which we came. Bornstein will out live most of us probably and the day will come when he will be remembering the good old days with his peers on AAAC. That is the reality of the situation.
Maybe he will be wearing his Trad clothes still and bemoaning the poor taste of his grandchildren. More than likely he will.
Trad is in a constant state of flux. Always has been, always will be.
Right now this forum is in a nostalgic mood. That too will change.
Bornstein's "Trad", even if it is put on as a joke, is as valid as the most Fogey member of the board's here. It's just different, that's all.
You very well may not like it and I may or may not share your view on this, but it is a *living* style.

Chet


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Louis M_
> 
> Am I the only one who hates how almost of them are dressed? Although there's only so much you can tell from photos, it just seems like an act for everyone. People are grabbing their collars to let people know that it's popped, the kid wearing the madras patchwork is wearing a trucker hat, etc. To be honest, it looks like a bunch of normal kids who got into Princeton and put on a "preppy" act.


Yes, this bunch is not wearing their clothes, they are wearing costumes of what they think they are supposed to wear. That said I wish them success in the world.


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But can we really judge? Are any of us really in touch with this generation?
The only thing that is for sure is that these are the young men and women from whom any innovations in Trad style are to come.
Fogey style is set in stone. It will not move on. It may move further backwards, but it will not move on.
Any new elements into the mix of OCBDs, Khakis and Loafers are going to come from Bornstein's crew, not from me, not from you.
Without new blood Trad will become period dress, costume, and laughable.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Given some of the things Iâ€™ve shown this board, I shudder to think of some of the opinions of me. I donâ€™t know why those kids look so bad, but I admit they do, even if I would/do wear similar items. For that matter Iâ€™m not sure that I didnâ€™t just order the blue oxford cloth coat that kid is wearing. 
Is it just the age or am I biased by skin tone, hair color?

Allen


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Allen_
> 
> Given some of the things Iâ€™ve shown this board, I shutter to think of some of the opinions of me. I donâ€™t know why those kids look so bad, but I admit they do, even if I would/do wear similar items. For that matter Iâ€™m not sure that I didnâ€™t just order the blue oxford cloth coat that kid is wearing.
> Is it just the age or am I biased by skin tone, hair color?
> ...


"Is it just the age or am I biased by skin tone, hair color?
"
Where are you going with this Doc?


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Chet_
> 
> The basic elements stay the same it is true, but they way in which they are worn and the styling details have always varied over roughly 5 year intervals.
> Whatever the future is, Coolidge, it is not you or I. We will return to the dust from which we came. Bornstein will out live most of us probably and the day will come when he will be remembering the good old days with his peers on AAAC.


Bornstein is not trad. Bornstein is "advertisement preppy" at best. It is he who looks custom-ey. I have never met a genuine individual who understands trad, even one who mixes it with contemporary styles and is a member of the young generation like me, who makes gang signs like that. If nothing else that should be a dead giveaway.

I don't think you could very well say I am not the future...I am 22 at a good law school and in the upper third of my class. The day that you find me walking around in flip flops instead of topsiders and purple polos with flagged collars...

These are garden variety frat boys, not Trads and not even legit preps stylewise. There are new inclusions in all of these styles to be sure but these boys do not represent those, they represent the commercially peddled version which is blatantly fake.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> The rest of these photos are random.


The two gentleman at the right are the closest to what I would call legit. Except that they are probably wearing flip flops, which I know some folks favor (the Reefs anyway) but about which I'm skeptical.

However the legitimacy is undermined when you read the imageshack captions of the picture a few pics down, that says "jewish gangsters". No, I'm not being anti-Semetic, check the original post yourself for the hidden caption, I just don't think Trads, young or old, would try to pull off anything "gangster". None of the ones I've met, anyhow.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Lots of good points. I'm glad I posted these photos and will post even more challenging ones tomorrow (they are sitting on my hard drive at work, waiting, waiting...).

Maybe we need to re-visit the 'trad' basics that this forum started with some 2 years ago, before the diversions into fogey, etc. Trad is certainly _not_ a nostalgic style, or a 'costumey' special event style. It's actually just the way most American men dress, with a few special details to separate it and to indicate to those paying attention that the wearer is aware of a longer tradition of American style than just the latest fashion. For example, nearly all contemporary American men wear BDs/blazers/khakis, but not everyone insists on flat-front khakis with cuffs, un-treated oxford cotton BDs, un-darted 3/2 blazers, and ties of just the right width.

Allen: I think I can say that we all have great respect for your style on this forum. Besides, you tuck your shirts in and wear proper footwear, right? You will never fall into the frat-boy, preppy-for-a-weekend category.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Lots of good points. I'm glad I posted these photos and will post even more challenging ones tomorrow (they are sitting on my hard drive at work, waiting, waiting...).
> 
> Maybe we need to re-visit the 'trad' basics that this forum started with some 2 years ago, before the diversions into fogey, etc. Trad is certainly _not_ a nostalgic style, or a 'costumey' special event style. It's actually just the way most American men dress, with a few special details to separate it and to indicate to those paying attention that the wearer is aware of a longer tradition of American style than just the latest fashion. For example, nearly all contemporary American men wear BDs/blazers/khakis, but not everyone insists on flat-front khakis with cuffs, un-treated oxford cotton BDs, un-darted 3/2 blazers, and ties of just the right width.


YES, it's not so much that the elements aren't there, it's the subtle differences.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> it's not so much that the elements aren't there, it's the subtle differences.


IMO, it's those subtleties that have separated "trad" from "bad" since the beginning. This is no different.


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

I really* do* think that our friend Bornstein represents the current new wave comming into the Preppy end of Trad. Hate it if you want to. Hate it all you like.
At 22, Coolidge, I agree that you should, God willing, have a long life ahead of you. But your opinions seem set. You will become a Fogey. Nothing wrong with that.
My point is that Trad has never really stood still, and I pray that that will continue.
Like you, Coolidge, I will not be dressing like Bornstein any time soon. But unlike you I am happy to give Bornstein room here.
Trad is bigger than you, me, or even Bornstein.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Chet_
> 
> I really* do* think that our friend Bornstein represents the current new wave comming into the Preppy end of Trad. Hate it if you want to. Hate it all you like.
> At 22, Coolidge, I agree that you should, God willing, have a long life ahead of you. But your opinions seem set. You will become a Fogey. Nothing wrong with that.
> ...


I am not now, nor will I become, a Fogey. Fogey is English. It is not Trad. It was brought up on this forum because there was no other proper place to put it. It was brought up because people were trying to see if it was the same as Trad, and then Russell Street pointed out many differences.


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

And not only do I find myself agreeing with you Coolidge, but now I find that I owe you an apology too.
Trad is the clothing we all share to a greater or lesser degree.
Fogey and Preppy are philosophical positions taken towards clothing and life in general.
I think an American Fogey can exist. I think it is, perhaps, a little _lifeless_ (probably that is the point of it?)... and I agree that it seems more of a British than an American thing.
Let an young American man be a young American man.
My apologies to you, Coolidge.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Chet_
> 
> And not only do I find myself agreeing with you Coolidge, but now I find that I owe you an apology too.
> Trad is the clothing we all share to a greater or lesser degree.
> ...


Oh gosh, no apology needed sir! Glad to have you aboard and I'm sorry if I've come off a little harsh. Something we can both probably agree on is that even if Bornstein is posing he and his friends are indeed dressed better than most people my age.


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

Not at all.
A good sparring partner. Well considered arguments backed up with personal knowledge.
We disagreed, we argued our postions, we came to an accord.
Such is the nature of a _real_ forum.


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## JSE (Oct 4, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> These are garden variety frat boys


From my experience, this is completely inaccurate. It seems to me that these Princeton students are going for the Abercrombie/Hollister look that has little, if anything, to do with Preppy or Trad.

Here are some pictures of southern fraternity ('Frat' is an abbreviation used primarily by Yankees who aren't familar with, or don't respect, the Greek system) men for comparison.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JSE_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed, and apologize for my gross generalization: Perhaps it's because we Yankees don't get much of a taste of the southern Greek system? We only get ours, which looks like Bornstein. Though I will say, and maybe he is a special case, my law school roommate this year was a fraternity man from Wake Forest. He dresses considerably worse than these guys or Bornstein. Is he a bad seed or did we just catch these guys at a good moment?

These are great pictures though and very encouraging about the state of fraternity sartoria, JSE.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Poor Bornstein doesn't realize his name is already an entire description on a certain clothing fora.


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## JSE (Oct 4, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> Poor Bornstein doesn't realize his name is already an entire description on a certain clothing fora.


Something tells me that we don't have to worry about Bornstein finding his way to Andy's Trad Forum.

As far as the pictures are concerned, they are obviously more formal than the pictures from Princeton. In the South, especially in fraternities, there is somewhat of a uniform to which almost everyone between the ages of 20 and 25 wears adheres. From the head down: shaggy hair (possibly covered in a beat-up baseball cap), tortoise shell color sunglasses with croakies, OCBD with sleeves rolled up two rolls, shotshell or fishing-themed belt, khakis (almost always cuffed, often pleated), penny loafers, topsiders or Justin/Red Wing boots. This is what one could expect to see these same gentlemen wearing at parties. As a sidenote, southern fraternity parties almost always include a live band playing a good share of 50s/60s rock (think Animal House soundtrack).

About your roommate from Wake Forest, it's my experience that Wake Forest isn't the best representation of a southern college. It certainly has lots of students from the south that would fit my description above, but I believe that the 2nd highest represented state is New Jersey. Lots of northerners go to Wake Forest, dilluting the southern element.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> Poor Bornstein doesn't realize his name is already an entire description on a certain clothing fora.


Especially being as this is Princeton, I feel compelled to defend Bornstein's general theory of relativity.

Cetainly the dress of Mr. Bornstein and his companions is far preferable to what has passed for "style" among many of his generation. No baggy gangsta pants falling to the knees, "athletic wear" or their underwear hanging out. For the women, no midriffs and pierced belly buttons. It's actually quite tasteful by comparison. (And the women actually look attractive; nary a single thong peeking out between a tattoo and the too-tight pop-off pants.)

We do have to realize that "good" style changes over time, and it is the guys on the edges that move it. Otherwise we'd still be wearing spats and celluloid collars. Remember the Duke of Windsor? Half the style things he came up with were considered outrageous at first, but then they caught on.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

('Frat' is an abbreviation used primarily by Yankees who aren't familar with, or don't respect, the Greek system) 

Precisely. Well put. I was wondering if someone else would correct the misuse. Thanks.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Literide_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Literide,

I live in a very racially segregated area. That doesnâ€™t make us all racists. (let me, for the record, note that I know you were not necessarily implying that I was)
Here is the census info.

As of the censusGR2 of 2000, there were 24,821 people, 10,648 households, and 6,825 families residing in the city. The population density was 326.5/kmÂ² (845.8/miÂ²). There were 11,511 housing units at an average density of 151.4/kmÂ² (392.2/miÂ²). The racial makeup of the city was 95.15% White, 2.97% African American, 0.31% Native American, 0.64% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.23% from other races, and 0.70% from two or more races. 0.68% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race

Last night I went to an outdoor party. I wore a pair of patch seersucker shorts and a lime green silk/linen long sleeved bd with deck shoes. I thought I looked good. Didnâ€™t feel that I was breaking any new ground. Now, had I been a passer by and caught in the Berstein photos, I wonder what the opinions would be here on AA.

Donâ€™t get me wrong, there is something just not right in those photos, something unnatural looking to my eye. Even though that with exception of the GTH polo shirt, I own all those clothes or some variation there of. I couldnâ€™t help but wonder if it was because of my surroundings or maybe because they are young and â€œcoolâ€ with appropriate gestures.

DD makes a great point after my post in stating that although the basic elements are thereâ€¦â€¦â€¦etc.

Thatâ€™s all, nothing more.

Allen


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## AsherNM (Apr 3, 2006)

> quote:Is it just the age or am I biased by skin tone, hair color?


Or you think Jewish trad a contradiction terms. They can design your clothes, but they can't wear 'em? Trad is many things to many people, including 'ethnic' apparel. The difference between it and other sorts of ethnic apparel is that it was adopted beyond its initial customers, bringing into question its status as ethnic wear. And what else can an American wear if he admired his own country's culture of yesteryear? But one cannot avoid the associations of such clothing as they often do look most authentic on their original wearers (especially with the more anglophile apparel).

To be sure, trad's dictates extend beyond clothing, into such realms as etiquette. Equally, the tradliness of say, your average Mexican differs greatly from your average Maine lobster fisher or Massachussetts dairy farmer.

Are all the Japanese poseurs for wearing Western clothing?

I'm not at all calling you racist (or antisemitic), but questioning your conception of trad. I agree that these lads are not trad, being rather flippant and phony. But that's not the reason you initially stated.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by AsherNM_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please note the above post.
Allen


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## AsherNM (Apr 3, 2006)

> quoteonâ€™t get me wrong, there is something just not right in those photos, something unnatural looking to my eye. Even though that with exception of the GTH polo shirt, I own all those clothes or some variation there of. I couldnâ€™t help but wonder if it was because of my surroundings or maybe because they are young and â€œcoolâ€ with appropriate gestures.


I agree, but that's clearly not what you first said. I also edited my above post, in response to yours.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by AsherNM_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course that is not what I originally said. But the further explanation reflects my original sentiments and is in no way contrary to what I said in my original post, no matter how one wants to spin it. Furthermore, I question your contemptuous response and would add that parenthetically stating that you are not calling me racist does run contrary to your post. Now, I will not go on posting on this anymore.

A gentile saved by Godâ€™s grace,

Allen


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Allen_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Point taken, I hadnt actually noticed the apparent lack of Anglo-Saxons. I think however what may strike you as "unatural" is the preponderance of pastels and polo ponys. As others have pointed out, these guys look too much like an advertisement for some cross between RL and Abercrombie. Indeed the South in general has a stronger grip on true trad in my experience. Even more than NE prep schools it seems. These guys are likely from NJ or LI suburban high schools and dont dress like that when they go home for the summer.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by shuman_
> 
> ('Frat' is an abbreviation used primarily by Yankees who aren't familar with, or don't respect, the Greek system)
> 
> Precisely. Well put. I was wondering if someone else would correct the misuse. Thanks.


Interesting...is this something new? I was in a Yankee 'frat' in the early '70s. I referred to other members as 'fraternity brothers' but we lived in a 'frat' house. Most of the houses were on 'fraternity' or 'frat row'. There was thirty some years ago no real distinction between using 'frat' or 'fraternity'. When did this change?
Cheers


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I think some of you are unnecessarily harsh on Mr. Bornstein. He, and his pals, are probably not all that into clothing but want to look acceptable, and take their prompts from the advertisements they see in magazines. They didn't want to dress hip-hop or Woodstock retro, so what they've chosen, the A&F, Ralph mix is relatively inoffensive, widely acceptable. Would it be offensive if I added that they're probably focused more on their studies at Princeton than on their threads, as they should be at college?

They look awfully young and undeveloped. They've probably been working hard to get into a good school, as they no doubt have succeded. The era of F.Scott et. al. and their tweeds and weekend benders in Manhattan is pretty much gone. I think that we are the odd ones, dwelling on this Trad stuff and the relative purity of one OBD over another. (I'm equally guilty.) Those Southern Greeks have probably been preening for that frat photo since junior high. They do look good, and homogenous.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

I hope he scores, but it's not looking good.



Bornstein again.







One of these two is called Morgan. Guess which one?


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Nice patch madras shorts on the fellow at left...











This guy must have been the bouncer...


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

No problems here that I can see.
Youth. Strength. Vitality.
We may not dress like them but by God they're *alive!*


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

Interesting that many of the guys are wearing shorts, but their honeys are all in dresses. Sort of incongruous, isn't it?


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> Interesting...is this something new? I was in a Yankee 'frat' in the early '70s. I referred to other members as 'fraternity brothers' but we lived in a 'frat' house. Most of the houses were on 'fraternity' or 'frat row'. There was thirty some years ago no real distinction between using 'frat' or 'fraternity'. When did this change?
> Cheers


I'd guess sometime in the later '70s or early '80s, most Fraternities were (and still are) trying to shake off the Animal House image. I joined a Fraternity in the early '90s and Fraternity life, at least on my campus, has vastly changed. Kds today can't have half as much fun as we did w/out The Man coming down on them 

Brian


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Nice patch madras shorts on the fellow at left...


These gents look pretty good. I still object to flip flops though I know they increase in popularity by the year..Reefs, J.Crew and Rainbows were very popular at Conn in my (rather recent) days there. I just think Topsiders/Quoddys are so much classier.

I agree we shouldn't be too hard on these people. Again, as has been noted, they are better dressed than almost any other university students, and we should be glad that some of them bother to tuck in their shirts and wear something with a collar.

On the other hand, what they are doing still looks like something of a pose and I have to wonder, as another poster said, if they were these outfits when they're home on summer break. I had a friend who had a brother at Trinity like that---all Polo in Hartford, all, um, other stuff when he was home in San Francisco.

As I have noticed on many a campus (mostly in your earlier pictures but somewhat in these as well) the girls have always kept up the look better than the gents, who have gotten lazy and too casual with the untucked oxfords, lakc of button downs, and the flip flops.

I reiterate that what the majority are wearing (the two gents above are pretty close to preppy but the other pictures are not as much) is not really trad or prep and hopefully they will grow into those two genres. This I have noticed happens in graduate school...the flip flops are still popular, but the shirts start to tuck into those nantucket reds.

Bornstein himself is still way off base. Double flagged collars are mocked regularly even by those from prep/trad backgrounds who flag single collars.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

The thing that drives me nuts about these pictures isn't the clothing, but the SMUGNESS that fairly drips from the screen.

There's just something...swinish about the looks on most of these guys' faces.

Can we drop the entitled sneer for 5 seconds? If there is anything distasteful to me about the whole trad/preppy thing, it is this attitude.

I find myself pining for that archetypal 80s movie scene in which a cycle gang comes roaring in, throws Chip and Van into the punch bowl, and careens off with the girls slung over their shoulders.


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

LOL!
Coolidge & Brownshoe you are both my kind of guys!
But what can we do?
Sit out this generation hoping for a better one next?
Could the next be worse?
Pray God no!

Chet


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> 
> The thing that drives me nuts about these pictures isn't the clothing, but the SMUGNESS that fairly drips from the screen.
> 
> There's just something...swinish about the looks on most of these guys' faces.


Ah yes, the boys pictured above are the _only_ frat boys to _ever_ look smug - LOL. I guess they are also likely to be the _only_ young men who think they will live forever.

Yes, it's so nice to be older and wiser.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Here's the link to the galleries:


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Here's some more photos from the 'croquet' series, these two aren't doing too bad.





No flip-flops in evidence for this event...


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## Chet (Apr 29, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL!
And it's even better now we are older & wiser to remember the boys we once were! 

Chet


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

This one, "Jay", always seems to be making an effort, even when the others are clearly not. He could snug up the tie, though, but otherwise he's on track (I submit) and will be ready for the 'real world' on graduation.


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## Brownshoe (Mar 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Chet_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure there are palatable frat boys out there somewhere (they probably grew up and are all on this forum), but the ones I have had the displeasure to have known hewed all too closely to the boorish stereotype. Dad was an SAE, but the frat "vibe," whenever I encountered it, made my flesh crawl.

It did drive them amusingly bonkers to hear people refer to their beloved institutions as "frats," so I did so whenever possible.

You see, I was an obnoxious punk too, just a different type. Maybe everyone should get a pass to be obnoxious until they're 25 or so.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Brownshoe_
> Maybe everyone should get a pass to be obnoxious until they're 25 or so.


I think this is why parents send their kids away to school - or maybe that was just my parents justification. LOL
Cheers


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## robieusa (May 1, 2006)

Couple thoughts...

Maybe these kids are poking fun at preppy? They look like they're at a costume party, with lots of booze.

Also, the croquet pics just make me mad. Croquet is scared and should not be included in some socio-economic role-playing fantasy.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I recognize a few of the scenes. I know the Princeton campus well. Probably too well. Wife's a Princetonian, and I'm on campus a few times a week.

A few Princetonians may be Vineyard Vines or PoloRL or J.Crew style "preppies," but mostly what passes for "preppy" remains a sea of darts and pleats and 70s-era haircuts. And sandals. Gotta love those sandals. (Ugh). A lack of consistency, I think. The kid who gets all J.Crewed-up for a game of crocquet behind Nassau Hall (by the look of it, that's where they are) is the same kid who'll be sporting a black t-shirt, jeans, and Birkenstocks down at Winberrie's the next day. I think "Preppy" is an occasional costume for them, not so much a daily habit to which they instinctively and unflinchingly return.

And what's the deal with all the English spread collared shirts?


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I think there are a few colleges that remain very, very trad because they're near men's shops that have, for the most part, remained committed to the TNSIL style. For decades upon decades, young men at a certain few colleges in VA have been told (oftentimes by members of the administration) that the best spot for a good looking interview suit, dress shoes, and shirts is ELJO's. And for decades upon decades, Mr. Thurston and his crew have steared them toward the TNSIL style. I've often wondered if this is why one continues to see lots of TNSIL in Richmond, D.C., and the Tidewater (VA) area. 

I learned to appreciate the comfort and look of the Alden 984 in part because it was one of only a few shoes that ELJO's carried in house. I still marvel at how popular that shoe was among my undergraduate buddies. 

Cheers,
Harris


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Their spread collar shirts went with the acid washed jeans and square toed shoes they were wearing last season.

The great thing about true trad wear is that it's style serves a purpose -- boat shoes were meant for traction on boats, seersucker was a light material that came pre-wrinked, turning up your collar was only to shield your neck from sun while outdoors, nantucket reds were originally made from sails, etc.

For those who dont agree that these are costumes for these kids, why would anyone wear two polo shirts? Wearing double shirts (generally a polo and oxford) was done to keep warm in drafty dorm rooms, not to add a little "accent color" to one's wardrobe in the summer. 

If I thought that many of these folks would refine their look to become true trads, that would be good, but I think they will be on to the next look as soon as J. Crew re-stocks their black leather car coats, etc.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> This one, "Jay", always seems to be making an effort, even when the others are clearly not. He could snug up the tie, though, but otherwise he's on track (I submit) and will be ready for the 'real world' on graduation.


Needs to loose the 'fro

I'll say it again, these kids are wearing costumes


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Here's an honest question. Although these pictures are apparently taken at Princeton, several of you have responded they are in frats.

Does Princeton have frats? I thought they had "eating clubs," although I heard from time to time there is a move to shut them down because they were "too elitist."

Where I went to college (Williams)they abolished frats back in the Sixties (?) as detrimental. When you go there, in addition to the Honor Code you have to sign a pledge saying you will not join a frat. There are apparently one or more clandestine ones across the border in Vermont--if they catch you being a member they kick you out of the college. So it's all very hush hush.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Beresford_
> 
> Here's an honest question. Although these pictures are apparently taken at Princeton, several of you have responded they are in frats.
> 
> ...


Just like living behind the Iron Curtain or Iraq under Saddam


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## rustjs1 (Feb 17, 2006)

Most of the photos here don't represent "trad" on most college campuses, or at least not in my experience. They look like they are going to some type of theme party. The KA photo does, and most of those fellows probably do it much better than those in the photos from Princeton.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

I went to a wedding this weekend, and the groom's brother who was back from New York was wearing flipflops with his seersucker suit and repp tie at the rehearsal dinner. He is out of college (about two years now) and works on Wall Street. I wish I had pics, it was so awful.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Beresford_
> 
> Here's an honest question. Although these pictures are apparently taken at Princeton, several of you have responded they are in frats.
> 
> ...


Princeton does have frats although, they are non-residential and peripheral to campus life. One guy I knew described them as a great place to "network". To me that says enough. Most of the Princetonians I know describe the frat boys as "tools". In my experience real trads at places like Princeton go to great lengths not to look like these kids, and also try not to look too much like they are going to a 1950s costume party either. They still have eating clubs, although, I don't think they would meet the high standards of trad set by this august body. I think they are all co-ed and only a few are selective, and even those (from what I have heard) are relatively open. Still, much more civilized than what you find most other places.

Southeastern Pennsylvania Trad Authority


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Some photos removed at the request of the subjects!

Andy


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## jbornstein (May 1, 2006)

Hello all. Being the actual "Bornstein" directed here by someone who had apparently read the thread, I'd love to thank you for one of the most entertaining discussions I've come across in quite some time. I appreciate the general regard for detail and tradition voiced in this forum, and thus before my name becomes synonymous with the awful A and F Polo crossover you've noted I'd like to clarify a few of your points:

The event that the pictures were taken at is known as lawnparties, and serves as the initiating event into the fall season of the eating clubs. Thus my attire and ridiculous gestures, along with those of my friends, are, I assure you, entirely facetious. If it's any consolation, I personally find two polo shirts reprehensibile (hence adding to the humor for anyone who knows me personally) and can generally be found in an ironed brooks brothers button down, a pair of flat-front chinos and topsiders. That is when I'm not wearing denim and something trendier for a night in the city.

To me, versatility and a sense of humor are everything, but I have tremendous respect for anyone who pays this much attention to the way in which their personality is reflected to the world, and I'd like to assure you all that these pictures are not indicative of mine. This forum was great.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jbornstein_
> 
> To me, versatility and a sense of humor are everything, but I have tremendous respect for anyone who pays this much attention to the way in which their personality is reflected to the world, and I'd like to assure you all that these pictures are not indicative of mine. *This forum was great.*


So are you, for being such a good sport.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Mr. J.B., glad you found your way to this forum. (I guess this means we won't be getting world peace, though. )


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jbornstein_
> 
> Hello all. Being the actual "Bornstein" directed here by someone who had apparently read the thread, I'd love to thank you for one of the most entertaining discussions I've come across in quite some time. I appreciate the general regard for detail and tradition voiced in this forum, and thus before my name becomes synonymous with the awful A and F Polo crossover you've noted I'd like to clarify a few of your points:
> 
> ...


I'm not sure whether to be ashamed and embarassed or burst out laughing but I think it's quite something that you discovered that you had, uh, been discovered.

Listen, whether you look like this normally or not, you're still better dressed then almost every college student and a good many adults, so even if I don't like the double-flags, I can credit you for that.

Best of luck at Princeton

Coolidge


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by jbornstein_
> 
> Hello all. Being the actual "Bornstein" directed here by someone who had apparently read the thread, I'd love to thank you for one of the most entertaining discussions I've come across in quite some time. I appreciate the general regard for detail and tradition voiced in this forum, and thus before my name becomes synonymous with the awful A and F Polo crossover you've noted I'd like to clarify a few of your points:
> 
> ...


Wonderful post. Welcome! Am happy you were not offended, although I'll be the first to admit that far from paying attention to the way in which my personality is reflected I simply have too much time on my hands and too ready an access to the internet.

On the bright side, you almost became the progenitor of a whole new clothing style, and I even compared you with the Duke of Windsor! I hope you will come back when you can and post your thoughts.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

"Something trendier for a night in the city."

Now, _that's_ modern-day Princeton.

Some bicker. Some do not.


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## Clotheswatcher (Dec 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jbornstein_
> 
> Hello all. Being the actual "Bornstein" directed here by someone who had apparently read the thread, I'd love to thank you for one of the most entertaining discussions I've come across in quite some time.


That "someone who had apparently read the thread" is noneother than myself! I found Mr. Bornstein through facebook, an online network of college students.

Glad to introduce Mr. Bornstein into the community.

Clotheswatcher


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## PennGlock (Mar 14, 2006)

Bornstein himself makes an appearance in the thread! This is the funniest thing Ive read in days. I can't even imagine the hilarity of discovering on an obscure Internet forum a discussion of one's own clothes. Those Princeton boys are going to be laughing for days at you guys. I knew there was a reason I keep reading the Trad forum...


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

*I went to a wedding this weekend, and the groom's brother who was back from New York was wearing flipflops with his seersucker suit and repp tie at the rehearsal dinner. He is out of college (about two years now) and works on Wall Street. I wish I had pics, it was so awful.* from Laxplayer

It's ironic, I think, that the Go-to Hell trousers are widely acceptable at the Trad Forum, but when the Go-to-Hell concept is applied via flip-flops the irony is missed. I guess there is an acceptable way to say it, and an unacceptable?


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by xcubbies_
> 
> *I went to a wedding this weekend, and the groom's brother who was back from New York was wearing flipflops with his seersucker suit and repp tie at the rehearsal dinner. He is out of college (about two years now) and works on Wall Street. I wish I had pics, it was so awful.* from Laxplayer
> 
> It's ironic, I think, that the Go-to Hell trousers are widely acceptable at the Trad Forum, but when the Go-to-Hell concept is applied via flip-flops the irony is missed. I guess there is an acceptable way to say it, and an unacceptable?


When I was 13 years old, I read several books by a man named James Laver. One of them was titled something like "Modesty and Dress", and I don't remember the names of the others.

Mr. Laver opined that the first item of clothing ever worn by humans was a precursor to the pocket, or in other words some way to carry stuff around. Interesting theory.

Another thing he theorized was that all clothing eventually "fossilizes" into formalwear. The colors turn darker (usually black), and the materials and workmanship improve, but the clothing item itself retains some connection to its roots.

Consider the buttons on the back of a tailcoat, which were originally put there so you could keep your tails from picking up horsehair during the ride home. Most tailcoats never go near horses these days, but even the tailcoat used for dressage are black nowadays.

After reading his theory, I began to joke to myself that someday people will wear black levis to formal affairs! After seeing this come to pass (at the Oscars no less!), the joke list much of its luster.

I also joked that top siders might someday be manufactured in black patent leather.









Here's the rub:

I happen to own a pair of MTM flip flops made with black velvet straps and leather soles, under a woven straw "upper". These are actually considered "trad" at a Japanese wedding, but obviously not during the indoor part of the ceremony. Also, wearing them with socks instead of tabi would be a major fashion faux pas. Obviously! 

.....................
: David G. Pihl :
.....................


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## n/a (Sep 4, 2002)

LMAO!! This is great, I have refrained from commenting thus far but I cannot hold it in any longer. I cannot imagine the surprise and ensuing apprehension JBornstein must have felt after finding out that he was the feature presentation on AAAC. In all honesty the guys and girls in the photos appear to be having a great time, they are youthful, nice looking and appear to be cognizant of their sartorial choices. I am certain that most of us would be horrified to find our college party pics posted here, I know I would. JB thanks for coming on and enlightening us to the real you, have fun and enjoy your days at Princeton,it will be over fast and then the reality sets in, spouses, mortgages, student loans, children, work,etc..


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

We have obviously veered off into an area of meddling in the business of Mr. B where we may not be entirely welcome, although I appreciate his willingness to be a good sport about it.

Under the heading of meddling, I would forget about the flip flops and shorts. When you are 20, you have no idea who you really are and are just starting on the journey.They will utlimately discover the answer in the fullness of time.

I audit classes with Mr B and his pals, and they are indeed the best and brightest. Many are brighter than their professors, and will make valuable citizens.

They won't all end up in Wall Street as masters of the universe. I attended a lecture by a graduate of thier institution ('68) who has devoted his life to battling the influence of gangs in Trenton, and has never earned over $35, 000 per year.

However, the thing that will literally destroy some of these fine young people is alcohol.They have no classes on Friday, and Thursday is a binge night for too many. 

At 20, you feel immortal. The 13 guys on the crew that I flew with are all dead. It wasn't the Mig 15s that got them but the 25cent happy hours at the officers club every night.

I know, I should mind my own business!

Carpe Diem


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

I graduated just a few years ago and was in a fraternity at UVA, and I have to tell you there is a huge difference between fraternities in the North in the South. Most everyone there is from the north. Also a lot of them aren't preppy, they are at preppy themed parties like "Golf pros and tennis hos" or croquet.

While everyone wore flip flops, and wouldn't always tuck in their shirts, most people in the Southern fraternities dress traditionally, while those in the north wear hollister, spiked hair, necklases, and cargo shorts etc.

As for foxfields, that is an event where people intentionally go overboard, so I don't see the problem. 

A fair explanation of how southern fraternity guys dress is here. They also go through the post grad.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Clotheswatcher_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did too, I just didn't know him well enough to message him.


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

Here are examples of southern greeks


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by mpcsb_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never has changed. At least for us "Yankees." Now, for "Rebels", maybe it is that way. 
See, I like to get a little "chippy" at times. In fact, 6 or 7 times a year I visit family and TX, and whenever "Yankee" comes up I just remind the "Rebels" who actually won the war.

Of course, it is done in a friendly way, and in a local pub where my brother has been a daily regular for 20 years. He tips em at around 245 lbs. (doesn't hurt) also the regs there know me, but there have been a couple of situations over the years where we get a big ol boy with the hat and boots who needs a little "settlin down" as we call it. It usually ends up with a handshake and a Texas Red beer.

Seriously, I'm sure their long-stading traditions differ from ours, but we called the house the "frat house" and even called ourselves "Sigs." The "fogey" Sigma Chi's (as I guess we would call them on this board) did NOT like our shortened nickname. (unless singing the song "A Sig I am.") It was ususally solved with "Hey, mellow out Henry and I'll getcha another draft." (said with respect of course!!)

All the best, 
Joe Morgan (a damned proud Yankee)


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## msh14 (Nov 11, 2005)

Well maddox you're really comparing apples and oranges with most of those photos except in the last one where I'd like the point out the very trad young man on the far left


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by msh14_
> 
> Well maddox you're really comparing apples and oranges with most of those photos except in the last one where I'd like the point out the very trad young man on the far left


HA!


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## maddox (Apr 27, 2006)

I think it is really stupid but generally using frat is OK as an adjective or verb, but not as a noun


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

In fairness to Mr. Bornstein, the KA Old South Ball pictures are as much costume as the Princeton prep gang. I guess it is a deep South thing, but I never really understood that whole look.

I guess it is no worse than dressing in Island wear and some of the things we wore back in my day. I just would not confuse any of it with Trad.


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Intrepid_
> 
> We have obviously veered off into an area of meddling in the business of Mr. B where we may not be entirely welcome, although I appreciate his willingness to be a good sport about it.
> 
> ...


You are right again Intrepid. (for the most part I think.) In fact, you and I have talked in the past about someone very close to me, who spend those exact same evenings at the Officer's Club and is now 74 and does not have "much longer." Sadly, the same can be said for his fellow SAC crew members. (unfortunately.) Genetics also "play a major role" of course, so, hmmm. Enough said from this end.
All the best, 
Joe


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jmorgan32_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Joe, I know that this isn't the place for this , but my heart goes out to you.

If it's possible to do so, please pass along kindest regards from another cold warrior that was proud to have flown for General LeMay. He'll know what I mean.

Carpe Diem


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Intrepid_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear Intrepid, 
I absolutely will. Thank you very much.
Joe


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

feel like the neo-gang hand signals of the kids entitle me to respond within the context of the expressed vernacular... these kids are frontin'. It seems that there are way more ready made, off the rack looks available for kids of all backgrounds, etc. today: the hip hop look, the 1979 punk look, the 'trustafarian' (pseudo-rasta) look, the art punk look (williamsburg, brooklyn), the rockabilly/car culture look/swing look (we call 'em "fonzies" around here).. and the abercrombie and fitch (aka A&F) look (that has nothing to do with the abercrombie and fitch uber trad store that anyone over 40 remembers). I live in San Francisco, and this A&F preppy thing is popular with a lot of the younger gay community and it is just a trend, not trad. For these kids in the pictures, their just tweaking the knobs of fashion and riffing on the prep look. Some may wind up in aldens and sack suits, and others may wind up in untucked snap button short sleeve shirts, jeans and darted jackets like the 30 year old gent who showed up straight from work at a focus group I was in last week. My first thought when he said that he was at the Pacific Exchange? Who lets people dress like this at work? But I digress... all I can say is that I look at these pictures and think that I am lucky that digital cameras did not exist when I was in school- for the most part, I control access to the few embarrassing pictures from my youth of folly.
I don't miss beer bongs.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Does anyone know of Bornstein graduated?
Does he still dress like that, I wonder?


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## inq89 (Dec 3, 2008)

^I'm glad you revived this, as I would have never read it till now.

A lot of the issues in this thread is what I'm in the middle of currently. As a student who will be attending a professional program in the fall, I'll have the chance to "dress up" more on a regular basis. I like a mix of northern and southern trad, but my goal is to _not_ look like some frat guy. So even if the guys in the earlier pictures are saving the world in the Peace Corps somewhere, I automatically think they looked like douchebags back in college.

So to combat this I have set up an invisible fine line for myself that will not be crossed. Particularities include: RayBans good, croakies not. LLB Bluchers and Weejuns instead of Sperrys (only for the sake of not wanting to be "part of the crowd"...boat shoes are big around here). Only one GotoHell article at the time...red shorts with a simple white or blue OCBD. Moderation is key. Stick with the classics. et al.

I'm not even trying to chase after a purely trad lifestyle. I like my Rainbows, although I'll make it a goal to only wear it sparingly and to the beach. I want to be in the middle in between my generation's youthful image and the extreme of trad blogosphere.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

^ Sounds spot on to me. Shake it up


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## ender01 (Dec 1, 2008)

*amazing thread*

This is one of the most amazing threads I have seen on this board. I started from the beginning, reading the comments on Borstein's dress, wondering where it was going, and then the subject himself showed up on the board! What a shock that must have been!

Good stuff.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

I also particularly enjoyed the threads on the Foxfield Races which started appearing around the same time.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Of course, it may not have been JB himself - easy enough to post a fake comment. And only one reply? I'd have milked it for a bit more.


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## Memphis88 (Sep 10, 2008)

inquirer89 said:


> ^I'm glad you revived this, as I would have never read it till now.
> 
> A lot of the issues in this thread is what I'm in the middle of currently. As a student who will be attending a professional program in the fall, I'll have the chance to "dress up" more on a regular basis. I like a mix of northern and southern trad, but my goal is to _not_ look like some frat guy. So even if the guys in the earlier pictures are saving the world in the Peace Corps somewhere, I automatically think they looked like douchebags back in college.
> 
> ...


Sounds like me. I hung up my croakies a couple years ago and my rainbows this year. The rainbows will make an appearance on the beaches of Sandestin later this summer, but that's it. And I never have gotten boat shoes for the exact reason that you mention.


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## RyanPatrick (Jul 3, 2008)

maddox said:


> Here are examples of southern greeks


Maddox, are you affiliated with KA at Ole' Miss? I ask because I am an acquaintance of David's (front row, 3rd from the left) and I was shocked to see a picture of him here on AAAC. This is a very accurate portrayal of Southern Fraternity style. Varies quite a bit from most schools above the Mason-Dixon with the exception of some of the liberal arts colleges in the Northeast.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

ender01 said:


> This is one of the most amazing threads I have seen on this board. I started from the beginning, reading the comments on Borstein's dress, wondering where it was going, and then the subject himself showed up on the board! What a shock that must have been!


Believe me, it _was_ a surprise, but he was cool about it. However, he did insist we remove one photo of some guy holding an item of "drug paraphenalia"...


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## ButtondownMind (Sep 24, 2008)

Could be worse. Could be much, much worse. At least they're wearing some color, and not looking like some sort of black-clad hooded post-apocalyptic undertaker. 
But the flipflops, God I hate them.....


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

JSE said:


> From my experience, this is completely inaccurate. It seems to me that these Princeton students are going for the Abercrombie/Hollister look that has little, if anything, to do with Preppy or Trad.
> 
> Here are some pictures of southern fraternity ('Frat' is an abbreviation used primarily by Yankees who aren't familar with, or don't respect, the Greek system) men for comparison
> 
> ...


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## magnum P.I. (Mar 11, 2009)

wheredidyougetthathat said:


> JSE said:
> 
> 
> > From my experience, this is completely inaccurate. It seems to me that these Princeton students are going for the Abercrombie/Hollister look that has little, if anything, to do with Preppy or Trad.
> ...


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## nick.mccann (May 3, 2009)

vwguy said:


> I don't understand the flip flops either, but at least this crew is better dressed than most on college campuses.
> 
> Brian


At my college if you wear a polo you're overdressed. I need to get out of here! Its a mix of country people and gangster wannabes.


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## Memphis88 (Sep 10, 2008)

magnum P.I. said:


> wheredidyougetthathat said:
> 
> 
> > No, I'll tell you right now, none of those southern greeks dress in cargo shorts, and most of them either wear drivers, or boat shoes. and they don't ALWAYS dress like that, duh....lol cargo shorts...
> ...


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## D&S (Mar 29, 2009)

You can usually tell the people who've affected a preppy look in college by their cargo shorts. Initially, they'll have the look 75% correct - Topsiders (though probably very new looking) and a polo from BB, VV, or Lacoste, with the effect completely ruined by tattered cargo shorts from A&F, American Eagle, etc. or God forbid, a puka shell necklace. Cargos betray the poseurs every time. (Exception: Columbia PFG's, but only in certain settings.)

And even though they're dressed in suits in the picture, you can tell by looking that not a single one of those guys (the Ole Miss KA's?) would wear cargo shorts. If they were the type, they'd probably be wearing monochromatic neckties and black dress shirts instead. I wouldn't rule out flip flops though, and Rainbows are perfectly acceptable in the right context. It's a real go to hell look to wear them with a coat and tie for tailgates, spring cocktail parties, etc. I've done it.


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## Memphis88 (Sep 10, 2008)

D&S said:


> black dress shirts


Another favorite of Memphis Fraternity members.

As far as cargo shorts go, I think the quote from Superbad pretty much sums them up.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

This was a great thread that some of our newer members might have missed!

aaaah memories, memories...


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

I was particularly impressed by Harris' introspective commentary here and, of course, by Mr. Bornstein's grace amid all the criticism hurled at. . . his clothes.


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## cmacey (May 3, 2009)

"All I can say is: necklace, bracelet, flip flops, sideburns, ridiculous color combos, gangsta hand jestures....oh please.

Mr. Bornstein and his "crew" need to either do it right, or put their acid washed jeans back on and give up the experiment."



Experiment? Hope it's a parody...that would make me feel better anyway.

Them to "Preppy" as "A Mighty Wind" is to Folk music.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Simply classic and a great read. 

But looking through this and many other older threads I can't help but see all the members that have been banned or suspended. What gives? Was there some over zealous moderation going on some time ago or what? I've been hard pressed to find any uber inappropriate post on this site, which is quite refreshing.


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## pistolandrapier (Jul 4, 2011)

Haha, I went to prep school with one of the kids in the Princeton pics in the beginning—he looks exactly the same!! Only he would never have gotten away with wearing that stuff in our school. lol.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Beresford said:


> Omigosh, I feel like we're living 1984 all over again!


There's a problem with that??


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## Drew Bernard (Feb 19, 2009)

TILL had some fun with this...https://theivyleaguelook.blogspot.com/2010/04/campus-style-princeton-1960.html


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

Interesting read, I missed this when it first came out. I can't understand why the kids' clothing engendered so much hostility from the forum; pretty standard preppy stuff if you ask me.


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## dcjacobson (Jun 25, 2007)

Fun stuff.

This line gave me the biggest laugh:


> Trad is certainly _not_ a nostalgic style, or a 'costumey' special event style. It's actually just the way most American men dress,


_The way most American men dress_? That's just nuts!

Don


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## TomS (Mar 29, 2010)

Clotheswatcher said:


> facebook, an online network of college students


Such innocent days...


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

The original photo from circa 2006. I wonder where/what Bornstein is today, some 11 years later?


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

^Probably much more mature......maybe switched to red solo cups and only a single polo at a time.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

FLMike said:


> ^Probably much more mature......maybe switched to red solo cups and only a single polo at a time.


That is an odd example of layering. Reminds me of my cousin who used to wear boxer shorts under his swim trunks.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^Indeed,
layering polo shirts has always looked just plain goofy to me. Perhaps it's an age thing? :icon_scratch:


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Back in 2006 I got the sense he and his friends were deliberating over-doing the preppy thing mostly for laughs. I didn't know those cups came in any colour other than red, though!


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

drlivingston said:


> That is an odd example of layering. Reminds me of my cousin who used to wear boxer shorts under his swim trunks.


Noticed that when I was down on 30A a few weeks back - guys wearing underwear under their trunks. I'll never understand that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ouinon (Jun 28, 2015)

In 2006 I was in (a public) high school and I can tell you that layering a couple of polos and popping the collars actually was a common habit among those we called the "preppies". In reality, they were the popular trendy kids, i.e., jocks or hockey bros. But 2006 was a time when _preppy_ was the popular trend, so we called 'em like we saw 'em. Now in the young-adult world they'd be called "normies".

A few years ago the same stores that provided my peers with prep-inspired clothing were providing the next generation with boho-inspired clothing, and today provide grunge-inspired clothing to the current high school crowds. I wonder whether the class of 2019 has its popular trendy jocks wearing flannels, or whether the grungy punk kids are now the popular trendy ones.


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