# Current state of Bill's Khakis khakis ???



## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Hi Everybody,

I haven't bought decent khakis in a long time and thought maybe I should. I know Bill's has gone thru some hard times and all but I'm wondering if their standard khakis are currently in line with those from the glory days of 10 years ago. For me they were never the longest lasting pants, well constructed but the fabric gave up the ghost pretty quickly. Still, I miss them. Thanks.

LW


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

My understanding - after talking with a local, very well-respected mens' store last week - is that they're back.


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## DRWWE (Jul 6, 2009)

WillBarrett said:


> My understanding - after talking with a local, very well-respected mens' store last week - is that they're back.


That's nice to hear. I have been wearing their khakis for years and mine are nearing the end of their lives. I was nervous about buying from them after their troubles, so just purchased two pairs of Ultimate Khakis from Orvis and I'm quite impressed by them.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Thank you both for your replies. I'll give it a go. Or maybe Orvis? Just something other than my BB Advantage, please.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

WillBarrett said:


> My understanding - after talking with a local, very well-respected mens' store last week - is that they're back.


Should be able to soon buy them for $29 pretty easily, considering how they've f'd up their business.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

smmrfld said:


> Should be able to soon buy them for $29 pretty easily, considering how they've f'd up their business.


So, the apparel supply chain management company that now owns Bills is already overproducing again? That would be pretty ironic.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

LongWing said:


> Thank you both for your replies. I'll give it a go. Or maybe Orvis? Just something other than my BB Advantage, please.


I've got original Bill's Anniversary and Cramerton Twills coming out my a** and those do see occasional wear during the cooler months. However, the backbone of my chino collection remains my BB Clark's Advantage chinos. To my mind they are a much better value than Bills!


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

LongWing said:


> I haven't bought decent khakis in a long time and thought maybe I should. I know Bill's has gone thru some hard times and all but I'm wondering if their standard khakis are currently in line with those from the glory days of 10 years ago. I miss them. LW


Don't worry about Bills. Just get some O'Connell's khakis and you'll be fine. Yes, they are pricey, but still not as expensive as Bills.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

just got a pair of M2 and they are extremely comfortable and nice quality


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

LongWing said:


> Hi Everybody,
> 
> I haven't bought decent khakis in a long time and thought maybe I should. I know Bill's has gone thru some hard times and all but I'm wondering if their standard khakis are currently in line with those from the glory days of 10 years ago. For me they were never the longest lasting pants, well constructed but the fabric gave up the ghost pretty quickly. Still, I miss them. Thanks.
> 
> LW


Be warned though- I see a TON of Bills tagged as "American Originals" pop up at Marshall's/TJ Maxx/etc that are made overseas. I don't know how much of their production is still MiUSA, but it's worth noting.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

orange fury said:


> Be warned though- I see a TON of Bills tagged as "American Originals" pop up at Marshall's/TJ Maxx/etc that are made overseas. I don't know how much of their production is still MiUSA, but it's worth noting.


This warning is valid and should be taken seriously. I bought a pair about a year ago, made in Bangladesh, and posted about them here, but I cannot find my own post. It is lost among the many Bills posts of that period. The pants are nothing like real Bills. Don't buy them.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Bermuda said:


> just got a pair of M2 and they are extremely comfortable and nice quality


Thanks. I'll give them a try.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

orange fury said:


> Be warned though- I see a TON of Bills tagged as "American Originals" pop up at Marshall's/TJ Maxx/etc that are made overseas. I don't know how much of their production is still MiUSA, but it's worth noting.


Thanks for the warning. I'll probably buy from the Bill's website. At $155 the should be made in the USA, no? It's been a while but last I checked the few shop owners I talked to were not interested any more. Maybe that has changed.


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## Dmontez (Dec 6, 2012)

About a year ago I purchased two pairs when they were selling everything at near giveaway prices. I was severely disappointed in what I received. The fabric seemed to be of lesser quality than I was used to, and the measurements were all screwy. 

I found my self recently needing black trousers for work, and having gone to my local mall and finding nothing. When I got an email from Bills advertising up to 70% off "I thought $40 bucks for pants, cant be much worse than what I found at my local mall" So I ordered two pair, with hemming and shipping I paid exactly $110 for both pair. 1 black, and 1 khaki. I was surprised to find that they seemed to be a better quality than I got last year, and still made in the US. I won't buy Bills at full price, but I will take advantage when I can get them around $40 a pair. 

I too have found the Marshalls/TJ Maxx versions, but I don't buy them.


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## Old Road Dog (Sep 4, 2015)

Explain to us how you paid $40. for $145. trousers, recently?


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## Dmontez (Dec 6, 2012)

Old Road Dog said:


> Explain to us how you paid $40. for $145. trousers, recently?


no real secret to it, if you catch the sale early enough you can usually find what you want.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

Old Road Dog said:


> Explain to us how you paid $40. for $145. trousers, recently?


I recalled receiving a 70% off email from Bill's a few weeks back, which I just located. It states 70% off, and appears to have included Original twill. If I remember correctly available sizes were very limited at least by the time I got around to checking.

Actually i just checked the website, and there are some limited sizes and colors available for $43.50


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## toddorbertBU (Apr 28, 2013)

I just received a couple of pair of the 14 wale cords. The M2 is a much better fit than the M2 I received last winter during the fire sale. Solid construction and nice fabric. Two pairs of cords and a Shetland sweater for less than $150 and all made in USA. Great deal!


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Dmontez said:


> no real secret to it, if you catch the sale early enough you can usually find what you want.


Indeed. Hopefully this is all the good USA stuff.

Unfortunately I'm between sizes for their tops, or I'd be grabbing some shirts and shetlands.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Just picked up 3 shetlands (russet, aspen blue, and dark gray). I bought the bermuda green at the end of 2015 at the same price (during the fire sale), and it's easily my favorite Shetland. The $43.50 price, minus 10% (discount code BK10), makes this way too good of a deal to pass on.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

According to his LinkedIn profile, Bill Thomas is currently the director/manager of the "Docker Premium" division of Levi Strauss in San Francisco.

If I ever bump into him, I'll be tempted to say, "Bill! What the heck happened?!"


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
...and if his reply is an honest one, he will candidly reply, "I sold out!" :redface: It is a very rare thing to find someone who is incorruptible in the face of the almighty dollar!


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Further on the khakis made abroad, the pair I mention above in post #11 came up in rotation yesterday, and I wore them for a few hours of routine errands - to the university, to a supermarket and other bits of shopping. Months of rest have not improved them, and my eye is now perhaps more critical. They are wrinkled badly from activities that "real" Bills would not have noticed. When washed, they will go into the pile to donate.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm very hopeful that the sweaters I ordered will be to the same standards as the one I bought last year. The site says they're still MiUSA, but we'll see.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Charles Dana said:


> ..."Docker Premium" division ...


There's an oxymoron for you. Good luck pulling that brand's image out of the trash can.



eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> ...and if his reply is an honest one, he will candidly reply, "I sold out!" :redface: It is a very rare thing to find someone who is incorruptible in the face of the almighty dollar!


If he did answer that way, he'd regain a bit of respect in my mind. If he started with some lame excuse, I'd put my hands over my ears and say loudly "Na, Na, Na, Na..."


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## swils8610 (Mar 12, 2016)

It's to bad...Bills have been my favorite for years. Hopefully they can regain their once stellar image although unlikely. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Charles Dana said:


> According to his LinkedIn profile, Bill Thomas is currently the director/manager of the "Docker Premium" division of Levi Strauss in San Francisco.
> 
> If I ever bump into him, I'll be tempted to say, "Bill! What the heck happened?!"


If he can get Levi Strauss to produce Bills Khakis' true equivalents, I will buy them.


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

> If he can get Levi Strauss to produce Bills Khakis' true equivalents, I will buy them.


But not if they have the rivets.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

had to get my first pair of Bills M2 altered for 10$. They were too long. A very nice material and quality otherwise


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Ask the wife to hem them. It could reduce the price by at least $10, if you discount the price of a requisite dinner out! LOL.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Crosspost from acquisitions- New Bills Shetlands came in today. The green in the upper left is the one I bought in Dec 2015:
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Closeup of texture:
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Fantastic sweaters, these were a steal at $40/apiece


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

OF I love the lilac shetland. Great score I am not surprised that color was snatched up. Over on the BK site the sweaters are pretty picked over at this point but Holy Cats they have a boatload of cords, flannels, twills and khakis all for <$50. I'm very tempted to at least pick up a flannel even though I don't need one.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Barnavelt said:


> OF I love the lilac shetland. Great score I am not surprised that color was snatched up. Over on the BK site the sweaters are pretty picked over at this point but Holy Cats they have a boatload of cords, flannels, twills and khakis all for <$50. I'm very tempted to at least pick up a flannel even though I don't need one.


Thanks- the lilac one was the one I was most surprised by. The pics on the BK website made it look like a light blue, so I figured I might be buying a duplicate of the BB Red Fleece Shetland I already have (albeit, a much nicer duplicate). I was surprised by how much depth the color had to it- lots of pink and purple undertones. Far more visual interest than the other three (which are certainly nice, but not as much color variation).


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## Barnavelt (Jul 31, 2012)

Perfect for Easter.


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## DownSouth (Jun 30, 2005)

You might look at All American khakis (you can Google them). It's been my go to for the last 6-7 years. Made in Thomson GA. I bought most of mine thru www.beautiesltd.com out of Vermont (I think). These are identical to the old Made in the USA Bills and go for under $100. Beau Ties Ltd will hem for free.


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

DownSouth said:


> You might look at All American khakis (you can Google them). It's been my go to for the last 6-7 years. Made in Thomson GA. I bought most of mine thru www.beautiesltd.com out of Vermont (I think). These are identical to the old Made in the USA Bills and go for under $100. Beau Ties Ltd will hem for free.


I've got a nice stock of Bill's and PRL Khakis but I want to check out AA. What I've seen is great, and that's a good price.

Beau Ties also has Gitman shirts for just under $100, which is a terrific price.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slim Jim (Jun 21, 2015)

Bill's is fine. Made in USA. Go buy some. I did.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

DownSouth said:


> You might look at All American khakis (you can Google them). It's been my go to for the last 6-7 years. Made in Thomson GA. I bought most of mine thru www.beautiesltd.com out of Vermont (I think). These are identical to the old Made in the USA Bills and go for under $100. Beau Ties Ltd will hem for free.


Which Bills model are they identical to? M1 or M2?


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## keltor (Oct 1, 2016)

WillBarrett said:


> I've got a nice stock of Bill's and PRL Khakis but I want to check out AA. What I've seen is great, and that's a good price.
> 
> Beau Ties also has Gitman shirts for just under $100, which is a terrific price.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Beau Ties branded Oxfords and Chambrays they sell are not Gitman Vintage made. (Lined collars too from the look of it.)


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## frankmartin (Mar 4, 2014)

Himself said:


> If he can get Levi Strauss to produce Bills Khakis' true equivalents, I will buy them.


Me too.


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## DeltaTango (Feb 27, 2020)

....just purchased two pairs of Ultimate Khakis from Orvis and I'm quite impressed by them.

I know I am late to the party, but I've been looking for some heavy weight khaki shorts, and I came across this site.

I too am a long time fan of Bills, when they were in Reading, PA. Still have a few. However, recently I've gotten 9.5 oz, heavy/thick, all cotton khakis form Orvis. Love them! VERY comparable to the original Bills. I purchase two at a time when they have the promotion. save $50.

Per their add: "_Our exclusive two-ply 9.5-oz. twill is more substantial than that of ordinary khakis, so they hold up longer. Yet they undergo our perfected prewash for the soft, broken-in fit and feel you love, right from the start. Just like the khakis your father or grandfather wore."_

I get mine laundered and starched, so they are heavy and stiff, ( I was in the army when we had starched cotton fatigues and Khakis) . Eventually, I let the older Orvis khakis get machine washed at home and they are buttery soft after a few years of wear and the starch washes out!

I might add, I am ordering a pair of shorts, $99, from O'Connells in NY; they sound decent.
Along the lines on classic cotton items - may I recommend Proper Cloth for a decent ($85 ish) OCBD shirt!


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

If you happen to be a waist size 32 or less, Bill's is currently offering a large selection of pants at $20 a pair!!!

My pandemic routine affords me more time to run, and I've recently dropped my waist size to 32, so the timing for me is perfect. Just picked up 4 pair, all made in USA.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

If you're anywhere near Portland, Maine, Mardens in Scarborough has numerous racks of Bills trousers in a large variety of styles, broad selection of sizes. They're all marked down to $19.95. They also have many Bills' shirts, which I find somewhat flimsy, many slim-fit.


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## Vecchio Vespa (Dec 3, 2011)

DRWWE said:


> That's nice to hear. I have been wearing their khakis for years and mine are nearing the end of their lives. I was nervous about buying from them after their troubles, so just purchased two pairs of Ultimate Khakis from Orvis and I'm quite impressed by them.


I have to say that I always found the Orvis Ultimates to be superior. The cloth is a good bit heavier than the standard cloth used by Bill's and others, and their stitching and detailing is rock solid.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

Just don't order from Orvis cuffed, unless you happen to prefer 1.25". I learned that the hard way recently.

I will say when I contacted them about it, the customer service was excellent and offered even to pay return shipping. Frankly I'm very lazy about returning things and haven't do so yet, and may not.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

The order I mentioned yesterday is scheduled to arrive today via standard UPS. That is incredible, and even more so in these Covid times.


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## drpeter (Nov 21, 2008)

I've received things very quickly through UPS. USPS, on the other hand, has become a disaster, since last year's attempts to delay mail-in ballots, slowdowns, understaffing etc. Months after the elections were over, we still have significant delays in mail delivery. I hand-carry my bills, the ones that I pay locally. The out of town bills are paid through telephone banking (I do no financial transactions online after a bad experience with hacking a year or so ago).


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## hsc89 (Oct 14, 2009)

Haven’t posted in forever but recently (within the last couple of months) ordered a new pair of Bill’s directly from the company and thought I might respond to the thread to relay my opinion as to their “current state.” Bill’s have exclusively been my go-to khakis for several years now (mostly M1s but a few M2s) and almost all have been in original twill. The pair I recently received - M1 original twill in khaki - were not exactly like the ones I purchased in the past but were still very nice. The fabric had a slightly different feel off-the-rack (or out of the shipping box) - sort of more stiff than heavy, if that makes sense, probably due to some fabric treatment/sizing - but was a nice overall weight. The cut was pretty much the same as it was in the early days as well - quite full and with a healthy, if not slightly higher, front and rear rise. The edge of the waistband (interior) is now taped and looks nice but seems a bit too fancy-dancy for a pair of cotton pants in my opinion. The waist measurement is also very true-to-size if not a tad bigger than marked. The pockets are where I noticed the most difference between old and new. Far from a deal breaker but the new ones are not as generous and the fabric seems a bit inferior to what was used in the past. The rears are just a tad shorter and the fronts, while they initially seem almost as long, are definitely not as generous. When it’s all said and done, however, I believe most will be pleased with the current product from Bill’s with the exception, perhaps, of the much higher price-point and recent price increase (my first pairs, purchased from a local, then-traditional clothier, were - if I recall - around $65 or $75 MSRP and they now retail for literally more than twice that amount) and the difficulty actually getting a new pair or two given the apparent inventory/availability issues their website seems to reflect of late - unless you happen to have a 32 inch waist


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## drpeter (Nov 21, 2008)

I have dozens of Bill's Khakis, but I bought only my first two pairs directly from the company: Two pairs made with regular WWII-type drill, one of which was in the Gurkha style. And you are right, they were much cheaper then, but that is understandable, given the way prices increase for most things over time. All my other pairs were picked up from eBay re-sellers: Most were brand new with tags at less than half the then current prices when I bought them. The average amount I spent on a pair was around $50 or so. I have enough to last me the rest of my life, in the styles that I like, mostly M2, so I don't anticipate buying any more. I agree with you, they remain my khaki trousers of choice.

Bill's Khakis are never seen in the thrift shops I frequent, here in the middle of Wisconsin. It's possible they come up in thrift shops in the bigger towns.


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## John M (Jan 11, 2017)

drpeter said:


> I have dozens of Bill's Khakis, but I bought only my first two pairs directly from the company: Two pairs made with regular WWII-type drill, one of which was in the Gurkha style. And you are right, they were much cheaper then, but that is understandable, given the way prices increase for most things over time. All my other pairs were picked up from eBay re-sellers: Most were brand new with tags at less than half the then current prices when I bought them. The average amount I spent on a pair was around $50 or so. I have enough to last me the rest of my life, in the styles that I like, mostly M2, so I don't anticipate buying any more. I agree with you, they remain my khaki trousers of choice.
> 
> Bill's Khakis are never seen in the thrift shops I frequent, here in the middle of Wisconsin. It's possible they come up in thrift shops in the bigger towns.


I will stick with O'Connell's and I am going to try Jack Donnelly again and see how they do. I still have to try the Orvis Ultimates also.


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## Vecchio Vespa (Dec 3, 2011)

I got a pair of flannels from Berle and like them so much I think they may be the source for my next pair of khakis. The pants are very well priced, and Berle will cuff to order.


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## drpeter (Nov 21, 2008)

Good to know this, TK. A critical feature for me, for all trousers, is the width of the trouser bottoms. I like straight legs on trousers with little if any taper. Anything less than 9" will not work for me, I dislike the narrow tapered legs that get down to 8" or even 7" -- I know that is all the rage these days, although I have heard that they are on the way out.

I checked out Berle's website and their prices are substantially lower than O'Connell's. Also, I noticed that they sell Charleston Khakis. I believe Berle manufactures them. I have two pairs of Charleston Khakis acquired elsewhere, and I have been impressed with their durability.

Are the Berle flannels and khakis made in the US? My Charlestons were made in the US.


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## Vecchio Vespa (Dec 3, 2011)

drpeter said:


> Good to know this, TK. A critical feature for me, for all trousers, is the width of the trouser bottoms. I like straight legs on trousers with little if any taper. Anything less than 9" will not work for me, I dislike the narrow tapered legs that get down to 8" or even 7" -- I know that is all the rage these days, although I have heard that they are on the way out.
> 
> I checked out Berle's website and their prices are substantially lower than O'Connell's. Also, I noticed that they sell Charleston Khakis. I believe Berle manufactures them. I have two pairs of Charleston Khakis acquired elsewhere, and I have been impressed with their durability.
> 
> Are the Berle flannels and khakis made in the US? My Charlestons were made in the US.


I believe all their pants are made in the US. Their prices are pretty good. I hope their workers make decent wages.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

drpeter said:


> I dislike the narrow tapered legs that get down to 8" or even 7" -- I know that is all the rage these days, although I have heard that they are on the way out.


Have a look back at some of Billax's post in the "What are you wearing thread". I remember reading Billax posting that he tapers his trousers to7.875. To my eye, that's perfect.High rise with a tapered leg is the classic ivy league look.

Jack Donnelly M3 taper is a very close facimile to the heyday chino in my opinion.


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## drpeter (Nov 21, 2008)

August West said:


> Have a look back at some of Billax's post in the "What are you wearing thread". I remember reading Billax posting that he tapers his trousers to7.875. To my eye, that's perfect.High rise with a tapered leg is the classic ivy league look.
> 
> Jack Donnelly M3 taper is a very close facimile to the heyday chino in my opinion.


Thanks. I think I saw those posts, but I'll take another look.

I suppose, then, that my "look" isn't precisely the classic Ivy League look in that respect. I prefer my trousers wider! That is more important to me than a specific look.


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## drpeter (Nov 21, 2008)

TKI67 said:


> I believe all their pants are made in the US. Their prices are pretty good. I hope their workers make decent wages.


Thank you, that is good to know.


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## August West (Aug 1, 2013)

drpeter said:


> Thanks. I think I saw those posts, but I'll take another look.
> 
> I suppose, then, that my "look" isn't precisely the classic Ivy League look in that respect. I prefer my trousers wider! That is more important to me than a specific look.


At risk of belaboring my point, , I do think a tapered trouser leg drapes better and as a result looks better. Nothing extreme mind you, I'm certainly not suggesting venturing into "skinny leg" territory. I would also think that the leg opening should be proportionate to waist size. A 7.825 leg opening probabably is "too skinny" for a size 40 waist (not making any assumptions about your waist size, just an example reference).

I would offer fellow member Ensiferous as another example of someone who's pants always look fantastic with a leg taper, along with everything else in his rigs.


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## drpeter (Nov 21, 2008)

August West said:


> At risk of belaboring my point, , I do think a tapered trouser leg drapes better and as a result looks better. Nothing extreme mind you, I'm certainly not suggesting venturing into "skinny leg" territory. I would also think that the leg opening should be proportionate to waist size. A 7.825 leg opening probabably is "too skinny" for a size 40 waist (not making any assumptions about your waist size, just an example reference).
> 
> I would offer fellow member Ensiferous as another example of someone who's pants always look fantastic with a leg taper, along with everything else in his rigs.


August West, I must commend you for your charming efforts at persuasion, LOL. But I like the way my 9" trousers look, so I'll stick to those. Mind you, I _have_ a few trousers that are 7" - 8" (thrifted long ago because I liked the fabric) and also jeans with varying amounts of taper, so it is not as though I do not know how they look on me.

In the 60s, as a teenager, I wore drainpipe trousers, looking like one of those Teddy Boys or perhaps, yobs! I know, dated slang for us old folks. My friends and I vied with each other to get our tailors to make those trousers as tight as possible. My father, with his usual, quiet sense of humour offered to buy me a horse -- he thought if I dressed like a jockey, I might as well do the job!

Because of some weight loss, my waist size has gone down from 36 to 33/34, with an occasional 32 waist fitting me, although it might be snug. And I am 5'-7", having lost an inch to aging. (We must accept these things philosophically, LOL). So I suppose the proportion issue is not an issue.

My ideal trousers are the older US Army and USAF surplus issues, of which I have several, in both wool and cotton. High-waisted, flat front, fits just right at the waist and hips, and straight legs with 1-3/4" cuffs or plain bottoms if there isn't enough fabric for cuffs. I also like similar trousers but with English style pleats. I have a few that I like with single pleats as well. I've said this before on another thread, but I don't dress according to a single strict code. I wear what pleases me, and I don't care if it looks particularly TNSL, or English country, or Neapolitan or Milanese...I even have clothes from other cultures that I have lived in, especially India (rounded-collar _galbandhi_ suit jackets, for example). They don't look all that much like Ivy style, LOL. But they are part of my heritage, so I will wear them on appropriate occasions, and maybe a few inappropriate ones as well.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

drpeter said:


> August West, I must commend you for your charming efforts at persuasion, LOL. But I like the way my 9" trousers look, so I'll stick to those. Mind you, I _have_ a few trousers that are 7" - 8" (thrifted long ago because I liked the fabric) and also jeans with varying amounts of taper, so it is not as though I do not know how they look on me.
> 
> In the 60s, as a teenager, I wore drainpipe trousers, looking like one of those Teddy Boys or perhaps, yobs! I know, dated slang for us old folks. My friends and I vied with each other to get our tailors to make those trousers as tight as possible. My father, with his usual, quiet sense of humour offered to buy me a horse -- he thought if I dressed like a jockey, I might as well do the job!
> 
> ...


I agree with this. I think it best to thoroughly asess your personal clothing style each decade of your life. Not because styles change, because you do. I'm in my seventh. My face is fuller now, so I've gone with a broader shoulder on tailored clothing (while still keeping the older stuff and 'punching' out the sleeve heads a half-inch each.) Big believer in clothing foremost being compatible with head size. Legs tighter than 9" drape poorly over dress shoes if you have large feet. I do. I wear jackets constantly summer and winter and almost all are three button with the top one done up. The jacket's not meant in my world to be a frame for a shirt and tie, vest or sweater. The jacket's the star, and the more buttons there are and the higher they button reduces everything else to accesories, shutters on a house. I treat my jacket's as my house, and am more or less constantly in both.


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## Vecchio Vespa (Dec 3, 2011)

FYI, not khakis but flannels, my Berles are 9 1/4". I love the way they drape.


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## Eligius (Jan 1, 2019)

August West said:


> Have a look back at some of Billax's post in the "What are you wearing thread". I remember reading Billax posting that he tapers his trousers to7.875. To my eye, that's perfect.High rise with a tapered leg is the classic ivy league look.
> 
> Jack Donnelly M3 taper is a very close facimile to the heyday chino in my opinion.


I had never experienced the high rise with tapered leg until I recently acquired some NOS from O'Connell's, and I love it. Almost everything I see in terms of different "fits" with tapered legs includes a lower rise. Thanks for the tip on M3s. I will check them out.


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## never behind (Jul 5, 2016)

I believe I read a rule of thumb on this website that the leg opening should be 2/3s the length of ones shoe. For me that’s about 8 3/8”. After having several widths, I’ve found that to be fairly close to what I consider optimal for me (~8.5”).


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## donk93953 (Feb 8, 2007)

So is Bill's history?
I see new shorts on their website, but that isn't my target.
My go to daily trousers are M2 Pleated...in Original or Travel Twill.
They seem to be selling already hemmed and waist sizes I only have a faint memory of.


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

Vecchio Vespa said:


> I believe all their pants are made in the US. Their prices are pretty good. I hope their workers make decent wages.


Their factory is near Charleston SC. I've driven by it on the way out to one of the small beach towns just south of the city.


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## xcubbies (Jul 31, 2005)

I often drive near The Andover Shop when driving to CT.


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## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

I now prefer Jack's but I have to admit its VERY close with Bills.


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