# Cheever, Marquand, O'Hara, and other Trad Books



## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

There have been many threads on this topic, here's the biggest one I could find:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=74527&highlight=books

Most of these threads go off on tangents and none of them are very extensive.

One poster coined the phrase "the three Johns" to mean John Cheever, John O'Hara, and John Marquand, probably the three most talked about authors on this forum. I first heard of John O'Hara and John Marquand from one of those threads and have since read several of their books.

I'd like to add that while most have recommended early O'Hara like _Appointment in Samarra_, and _Butterfield 8_, and rightfully so, those are probably his best novels, many of the class signifiers and class issues that would probably interest members of the forum are found in more detail in his later less well recieved novels and in his always well recieved short stories.

And while Marquand's _The Late George Apley_ and _Point of No Return_ are often recommended among his other major novels (and they are really good), he wrote less serious books and stories which are easier and more light hearted glimpses into that New England class. For example, I found _Life at Happy Knoll_, a satire of country club life that was apparently serialized in _Sports Illustrated_ magazine before being collected, an extremely entertaining read.

Everybody knows John Cheever. I've still not read any of his novels but have read a majority of the short stories. I just picked up a copy of _The Wapshot Chronicle_ and plan on reading it this winter break.

As for other books and authors, here are some that I've found, in no order:

Fiction (the first 6 are also included on the reading list p. 59 of the OPH):
J. D. Salinger (from high school)
by John Knowles, _A Seperate Peace_ (also from high school)
by James Hilton, _Goodbye, Mr. Chips_
by James McPhee, _The Headmaster_
by Richard Yates, _A Good School_
by Louis Auchincloss, _The Rector of Justin_
by Tobias Wolff,_ Old School_
by Geoffrey Wolff, _The Final Club_
by Donna Tartt _The Secret History
_by Mary Mccarthy, _The Group_

Also listed in the OPH (in case someone doesn't have one and is interested):
by Muriel Spark, _The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie_
by Thomas Hughes, _Tom Brown's Schooldays_
by Robert Anderson, _Tea and Sympathy_
anything by F. Scott Fitzgerald (of course)
by Erich Segal, _Love Story_ (I also read, I'm embarrassed to say, _The Class_)
_Decline and Fall_ and anything else by Evelyn Waugh
by James Kirkwood, _Good Times/Bad Times_
by Owen Johnson, _Lawrencville Stories_
by Ronald Searle, _The Belles of St. Trinian's_
by Geoffrey Wolff, _The Duke of Deception_
by John Irving, _The World According to Garp_
anything by George Plimpton and William F. Buckley, Jr.

Memoirs:
by Annie Dillard, _An American Childhood_ (which has become one of my favorite books by one of my favorite authors after having read the recommendation on this forum)
by George Howe Colt, _The Big House_
WFBjr.'s _Miles Gone By_

The recent biographies of John Cheever and Richard Yates by Blake Bailey are terrific if intimidating in their size (at least to me).

_Class_, by Paul Fussell, works as a longer more thorough _Preppy Handbook_.

by Nelson W. Aldrich, jr., _Old Money_

Not completely related but maybe interesting to some of you is _Racing Odysseus_ by Roger Martin about, among other things, a traditional liberal arts education. I can't remember where I heard of this book but it may have been on this forum. I wish I had known about St. John's College in Maryland when I was in high school.

The Great Books or Harvard Classics?

From the previous thread here are some more recommendations collected:



oldschoolprep said:


> Many great works have been cited already. But I'll add David Riesman's The Lonely Crowd as the key work of Trad non-fiction along with:
> 
> The Significance of the Frontier in American History by Frederick Jackson TaylorAnything by Ralph Waldo Emerson
> Jefferson (six volumes) by Dumas Malone
> ...


This post was attacked last time around. The main issue raised was "what makes a book trad?" I don't think there needs to be too much debate here as most of us have difficulty defining trad itself. If you think the book is trad, post it. If you think the previous poster's recomendations have some hidden agenda, point it out, or don't.



vintage68 said:


> Just remembered this one:
> 
> In Defense of Elitism by William A. Henry III. Excellent.





Beresford said:


> As for books, anything written by P.G. Wodehouse.





jjohnson12 said:


> Books:
> The Compleat Angler - Izaak Walton
> Complete Manual for Young Sportsmen - Frank Forester
> Lord Chesterfield's Letters
> Anything by William Faulkner or Shelby Foote





lackspolish said:


> Roger Duncan, A Cruising Guide to the New England Coast: Including the Hudson River, Long Island Sound, and the Coast of New Brunswick





Naval Gent said:


> For the record, my favorite books are the Jack Aubry Series by Patrick O'Brian (20 volumes). In my opinion some of the best fiction ever written in the English language. Not tradly, (except maybe in a Napoleonic way) but quite good.
> 
> Scott





Fuller Dreck said:


> 2. Tristram Shandy by Laurence Sterne - only fits b/c it has special significance with the Yale Skull and Bones, despite the fact that it's a rather odd book from the 18th century.
> 3. Rule of Four by Caldwell and Thomason. Not a great book, but the focus of this mystery is on Princeton eating clubs and it's written by a couple of young Ivy alums (one Princeton, one Harvard).





Quay said:


> Off the top of my head:
> 
> The Way We Live Now by Anthony Trollope
> Vanity Fair by William Thackeray
> ...





JRT3 said:


> _The Theory of the Leisure Clas_s - Thorsten Veblen





katon said:


> _Alcoholics Anonymous_ and Plutarch's _Lives_.





PorterSq said:


> I just finished a novel called "Matters of Honor" by Begley, which I think folks here will like. It's about 3 roommates at Harvard in the early 50s and their lifelong friendship. One's Jewish and wants nothing more than to fit in with the WASPy set, one's a from an old family from the Berkshires and is dealing with alcoholic parents, and the third looks and seems old money, but his family is really new money.
> 
> There are several passages that discuss their clothing, and even a few references to buying clothing at Keezer's.
> 
> I thought it was an excellent book aside from being "trad," but whatever definition folks use as a "trad" book, I think this will qualify.





septa said:


> I can't reccomend enough the work of E. Digby Baltzell. He wrote about the American upper class from the guilded age to the 1960s and 1970s. He isn't as dense as other professional historians/sociologists. His stuff is great check out "sporting gentlemen" his history of Tennis.


I'll also add Sir Walter Scott's _Waverley_ novels referenced many times in _The Late George Apley_ as being Thomas Apley's favorite books.

Oh, does anyone have _The Official Sloane Ranger Handbook_? I've been meaning to get a copy. Is it worth the trouble?

OK, I've tried to collect as much as I could. I'm sure I've forgotten some and I'm certain there are more books of this (sort of vague) style that I've not heard of. That's what this thread is for. Hopefully it's not too redundant.

Since this is also one of my first posts on the forum, here is a little about how I got here. Around a year ago I found an old copy of the Official Preppy Handbook on my parents book shelf. I've grown up and continue to live in Texas so the culture of New England is far removed from me. Anyway, just before I'd monogrammed everything in my possesion (just kidding) I found this forum. I started collecting books on the subject (of that New England class) based on the many recommendations from previous threads.


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## TradMichael (Apr 13, 2006)

Nice topic.

I very recently discovered what may be a forgotten trad giant, considered by some who would know as one of the greatest novelists of the last century, James Gould Cozzens. He was a popular name in the 40s and 50s but his star crashed with the onset of the counterculture, who were antithetical to his uncompromising traditionalism. It apparently got to the point that Updike publically mocked his latter-day work. I've just gotten ahold of a few of his books and the definitive bio, and will report in a few weeks.

Anything in the House of Scribner is total 20th century American Trad (F. Scott, Hemingway, Wolfe, Dos Passos, Lardner, Wharton, Rawlings, Nancy Hale, and so on).

Most of the minor figures are really just period lit now (Bromfield, Caldwell and so on), possibly amusing for the "retro" aspect but not divine.

Across the Atlantic there's Conrad, Waugh as you mentioned, and one of the finest, Sir Compton Mackenzie. Everyone should take the time to read _Sinister Street_, preferably when in his twenties. It could be the best of the "campus" novels and is great reading.

All their trademark decadence aside, I know the Brat Pack were considered trad and preppy. I've been thinking that maybe _The Secret History_ is more allegorical than most people might have picked up on. Bret Ellis hits his notes highest in _The Rules of Attraction_.



> The recent biographies of John Cheever and Richard Yates by Blake Bailey are terrific if intimidating in their size (at least to me).


Bailey had a short story this past year in the (despicable hipster) mag _Vice_, and it was great, quite tradly---I think the only problem was an abrupt and unsatisfying ending. Maybe it'd been mangled in editing.



> The Great Books or Harvard Classics?


They're both useful but each has its own biases, omissions and agendas. I'd add the Modern Library too---the size is good for reading, they're affordable, and I like how they look on a shelf. Maybe I'll have to take some pics. I have a couple of good shelves of books in this theme, too:



> Roger Duncan, A Cruising Guide to the New England Coast: Including the Hudson River, Long Island Sound, and the Coast of New Brunswick


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

_Harvard Yard_ by William Martin might qualify as pulp-trad.

For another book with a chapter set in Harvard (1910 iirc) there is Faulkner's _The Sound and the Fury_--an amazing, challenging book that just barely qualifies because (1) it may be considered southern trad; and (2) it does have that chapter in Harvard.


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## boatshoe (Oct 30, 2008)

TradMichael said:


> I very recently discovered what may be a forgotten trad giant, considered by some who would know as one of the greatest novelists of the last century, James Gould Cozzens. He was a popular name in the 40s and 50s but his star crashed with the onset of the counterculture, who were antithetical to his uncompromising traditionalism. It apparently got to the point that Updike publically mocked his latter-day work. I've just gotten ahold of a few of his books and the definitive bio, and will report in a few weeks.


This reminds me that Terry Teachout recently wrote about Cozzens and _Guards of Honor _in the October 5th copy of National Review.

Your mention of Cozzens also reminds me of John P. Marquand, who was similarly mocked by the literary establishment after a period of success following the publication of _Point of No Return _in 1949. Incidentally, Marquand was also recently mentioned by Teachout in NR. Here's an excerpt:

"The latter-day eclipse of Marquand's reputation is explicable, if not quite understandable. He was a Trollope-like chronicler of New England manners who lacked Trollope's charm, and his smoothly flowing prose was more workmanlike than stylish. Solid competence, not arresting individuality, was his literary line. Yet several of his books had the root of the matter in them, and one in particular strikes me as little short of masterly. _Point of No Return_, published in 1949, is the story of an ambitious boy from a small town in Massachusetts who makes his way to Manhattan, there to become the vice president of a small private bank - and to find that the promotion he has sought since returning from the war is mysteriously unfulfilling.

If any of this sounds suspiciously familiar, it's because Marquand was one of the first novelists to explore the lingering disquiet felt by a generation of American businessmen whose lives were upended by World War II. Charles Gray, the protagonist of _Point of No Return_, was the original man in the gray flannel suit, unable to see why the world he left behind was no longer capable of satisfying him." - NR 11/23/09


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Has anyone mentioned "Stover at Yale"?


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## TradMichael (Apr 13, 2006)

phyrpowr said:


> Has anyone mentioned "Stover at Yale"?


It all starts there ... the "textbook" of the 20s. Go back any further and you've got the Rover Boys.

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/17777


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## TradMichael (Apr 13, 2006)

boatshoe said:


> This reminds me that Terry Teachout recently wrote about Cozzens and _Guards of Honor _in the October 5th copy of National Review.
> 
> Your mention of Cozzens also reminds me of John P. Marquand, who was similarly mocked by the literary establishment after a period of success following the publication of _Point of No Return _in 1949. Incidentally, Marquand was also recently mentioned by Teachout in NR.


Interesting. Glad to know that someone is still thinking about these writers. There was a piece about Marquand in _Time_ (ca 1960) that mentions the Cozzens / Marquand New England connection:


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## TradMichael (Apr 13, 2006)

Tom Wolfe, I AM CHARLOTTE SIMMONS

Fantastic novel. Set in the trashbin of now, yet Trad all the way. Status quo universally panned it, couldn't hide their anger. Smarter than anything the Brat Pack did and just as stylish. Really one of the top novels of this new century.

Marisha Pessl, SPECIAL TOPICS IN CALAMITY PHYSICS

I'm not sure (yet) what to make of Pessl, but there's no denying that this is a _very_ Trad novel. I don't want to give anything away but if you enjoy mid-century culture and old-school tradliness, you'll revel in the thousand or so references she throws out in the pages of this book.


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

*more Marquand and Auchincloss*

You missed some of Marquand's others....

BF's Daughter
HM Pulham
Sincerely, Willis Wade
Wickford Point

as well as many novels and short stories by Auchincloss.

asf


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm afraid that if I read any of Cheever or O' Hara's books, it will feel like just another F. Scott Fitzgerald novel. The characters long to be in the upper class and come from poor backgrounds, etc....


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## blastandcast (Nov 29, 2006)

*Southern Trad*

May I suggest Neal Holland Duncan's triology about New Orleans (Baby Soniat, Carnival of Souls and Naked in Rhodendrons) and Bachelor Society by Charles Poulnot which is about Charleston. Both are entertaining reads about the older families of both towns and how they adjust (or don't) to the changes in both towns. The undercurrents of all of these novels is that "progress" is destroying the unique sense of place which make up the traditions and culture of both societies. The wardrobe of the main characters would be familiar to most members of this board (for example, the protagonist of Duncan's novels is described as wearing weejuns, Brooks Brother button down and madras bermuda shorts). B&C


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

Was about to post this in the American Trad Men thread but thought it might go better here. See how many authors you can name without looking at the listing. From the October 1973 special issue commemorating its fortieth anniversary:

































1 John Kenneth Galbraith
2 Tom Wolfe
3 Nora Ephron
4 Ernest Hemingway
5 Robert Alan Aurthur
6 Murray Kempton
7 John Updike
8 William Styron
9 Gay Talese
10 Thomas Wolfe
11 William Faulkner
12 Phillip Roth
13 Dwight Macdonald
14 F. Scott Fitzgerald
15 James Baldwin 
16 John O'Hara
17 John Steinbeck
18 Saul Bellow
19 H.L. Mencken
20 Dorothy Parker
21 Irwin Shaw
22 Richard H. Rovere
23 Truman Capote
24 Vladmir Nabokov
25 Peter Bogdanovich
26 Garry Wills
27 Richard Joseph
28 Leon Trotsky
29 Ralph Ellison
30 Tennessee Williams
31 Malcolm Muggeridge
32 Sinclair Lewis
33 Gore Vidal
34 John Sack
35 Arnold Gingrich
36 John Dos Passos
37 Thomas Berger
38 John Cheever
39 Laurence Stallings


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Raincoat, your pix didn't show on my computer, but I was pleased to ID what you referred to, and get my old copy off the shelf.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

phyrpowr said:


> Raincoat, your pix didn't show on my computer, but I was pleased to ID what you referred to, and get my old copy off the shelf.


Hopefully that problem is fixed now. I was having trouble resizing the pictures (they were way too big) and had to mess with the files but now everything should be sorted out.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

What a great collage..
I'm not one to pile on the new Esquire, they seem to want to be a men's fashion mag, and do a good job of it.
But they had some amazing writers working for them

as for the rest of this thread, I hesitate to read it, my "to read" pile is too big already, don't need to be adding more.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> What a great collage..
> I'm not one to pile on the new Esquire, they seem to want to be a men's fashion mag, and do a good job of it.
> But they had some amazing writers working for them
> 
> as for the rest of this thread, I hesitate to read it, my "to read" pile is too big already, don't need to be adding more.


The current Esquire is dreck; the old one was superb.


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## Congresspark (Jun 13, 2007)

_A Summons to Memphis_ and _Collected Stories_ by Peter Taylor.

_Life Studies_ by Robert Lowell.

Cheever writes the most marvelous sentences. Despite the tweed jacket and sweater on the commuter train platform (see cover of the Library of America edition of the _Collected Stories_) he's a fiendish satirist, not a portraitist of earnest striving.

For those who love the American literary tradition: https://www.loa.org/highlights/?gclid=COG2qo_HjaACFQtx5QodUUzkgA


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## Congresspark (Jun 13, 2007)

And _The Education of Henry Adams._


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Cheever is too complicated to be labelled a satirist. His universe is a mix of good and bad in equal measure, and his voice doesn't indulge in any satirical distancing: he's part of the same lump. There's no sense that human folly is something to be avoided or transcended except in momentary flights. The moral is to embrace life, celebrate it, keep one's chin up. Satire is only part of the story.



Congresspark said:


> _A Summons to Memphis_ and _Collected Stories_ by Peter Taylor.
> 
> _Life Studies_ by Robert Lowell.
> 
> ...


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## Congresspark (Jun 13, 2007)

That's a very nice appreciation of Cheever. Thanks.

My sense of the satiric quality of his writing may have been sharpened by reading the very interesting biography and getting a clearer sense of the complicated balance of distance and attraction between his life and the life he wrote about. He reminds me a lot of Hawthorne in that way. I don't think to recognize or even to emphasize the satiric streak in the work diminishes the pathos or the possibilities of second chances he offers. And I think I like him all the better for the satiric edge.

I was out on the x-c skis in the local park a few weeks ago, when I heard a voice call out, "Jupiter, Jupiter!" and then a great bounding retriever came into view. Fans of "The Country Husband" will understand my pleasure at that.

I hope no one will mind a second plug for the wonderful Peter Taylor.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

Congresspark said:


> I hope no one will mind a second plug for the wonderful Peter Taylor.


Not at all. I didn't even catch your first plug.

Actually I've been reading more Southern writers lately. I just read Neal Holland Duncan's Baby Soniat (recommended by blastandcast above). Was a little disappointed with that one actually. The last chapter was so much better than everything preceding it (in my humble opinion). It was a fun read though.

Another Southern author worth mentioning in this thread (Southern Trad?) is Walker Percy. I actually haven't read anything by him but Congresspark's mention of Peter Taylor sort of reminded me that I've been meaning to. I'll probably check The Moviegoer out from the library this afternoon.

Also, I read Cold Spring Harbor by Richard Yates a few days ago and would really, highly recommend it to anyone. It's a quick read too.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Walker Percy's uncle (who raised him after his parents died), the attorney William Alexander Percy, wrote a classic of Southern regional literature called _Lanterns on the Levee._ It's worth a look.

Does anyone read Booth Tarkington any more? I could see putting him on the "trad writers" list.


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

"Lanterns on the Levee" is excellent and has a nice chapter on Sewanee where the author spent time as a student. Peter Taylor, anything at all, is splendid and catches the voice of the upper middle class Southerner perfectly. Ditto Ellen Gilchrist.

I loved Booth Tarkington when I was a child.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

cumberlandpeal said:


> "Lanterns on the Levee" is excellent and has a nice chapter on Sewanee where the author spent time as a student. Peter Taylor, anything at all, is splendid and catches the voice of the upper middle class Southerner perfectly. Ditto Ellen Gilchrist.
> 
> I loved Booth Tarkington when I was a child.


I guess he's fondly recalled for the Penrod and Sam books, indeed. I was also thinking of _The Magnificent Ambersons, _which I came to via the great (even if criminally studio-mutilated) Orson Welles movie.

TMA seems to me to offer some "traddish" preoccupations, with a touch of melodrama and a Midwestern rather than a Northeastern or Southern spin (he was from Indiana), to wit: concern with upward and downward social mobility in American society; the place and meaning of family pride and old-fashioned virtues in such a fluid milieu; etc.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

So many half-forgotten masterpieces: _The Late George Apley_, wow, that's a superb book--must read again. I think for me the ultimate is the scene in _Gatsby_ where he starts throwing shirts on the bed, and Daisy starts weeping because she's 'never seen such beautiful shirts.' Sort of what it's all about, though as I recall the shirts aren't really trad.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

By Michael Knox Beran, The Last Patrician: Bobby Kennedy and the End of American Aristocracy

I read this over a year ago and can only remember enjoying it, no details. I may have heard about it on this board actually. Anyway I was looking through some notes I had taken while reading it and found mention of Nelson Aldrich, Digby Baltzell, Marquand, Johnson's Stover at Yale, Averell Harriman, George Plimpton, John Lindsay, and it just goes on and on.


Really enjoying all the Southern trad recommendations by the way, so thanks to all who have given them.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

The Rambler said:


> So many half-forgotten masterpieces: _The Late George Apley_, wow, that's a superb book--must read again. I think for me the ultimate is the scene in _Gatsby_ where he starts throwing shirts on the bed, and Daisy starts weeping because she's 'never seen such beautiful shirts.' Sort of what it's all about, though as I recall the shirts aren't really trad.


I wonder if that that famous scene was inspired by one of Zelda's emotional displays. I could see her getting overwrought and falling into a pile of Scott's shirts.


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

www.LeatherBoundBooksByTheMetre.com


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## Benson (Aug 28, 2009)

Bermuda said:


> I'm afraid that if I read any of Cheever or O' Hara's books, it will feel like just another F. Scott Fitzgerald novel. The characters long to be in the upper class and come from poor backgrounds, etc....


I can't speak to O'hara's work, but I think you should reconsider Cheever (his characters are hardly F. Scott castoffs). In fact, I think anyone who reads the Day the Pig Fell into the Well would find it difficult to say Cheever was not a writer of peculiar gifts.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Congresspark said:


> And _The Education of Henry Adams._


I'll bet you read Henry James for pleasure:icon_smile_big:

BTW, anyone who wants to get into Faulkner, IMHO, do not start with "The Sound and the Fury". It's the culmination of a rather long line of work that begins, chronologically, with "Sartoris" and "The Unvanquished". It's fine on it's own of course as an example of stream of consciousness, but you won't really get any feel for who Quentin Compson is or why

The Hamlet, Town, Mansion trilogy is a stand alone and very instructive on Faulkner's obsession(?) with status.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

The Swimmer is the best short story I have ever read.



Benson said:


> I can't speak to O'hara's work, but I think you should reconsider Cheever (his characters are hardly F. Scott castoffs). In fact, I think anyone who reads the Day the Pig Fell into the Well would find it difficult to say Cheever was not a writer of peculiar gifts.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Speaking of great short stories, has anyone mentioned Updike. Recently reread _ Collected Early Stories: _the guy writes in HD. And look at the jacket pictures, or any picture of Updike, to see near perfect (perfect doesn't cut it) traditional dressing.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

For Cheever and Updike fans who missed this thread:

NYT: video of Cavett show with Cheever & Updike


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## Benson (Aug 28, 2009)

Not to hijack the thread, but I am beginning to wonder how many writers frequent the Trad forum, or AAAC generally. I know there are a good deal of academics here, but what about writers of fiction, poetry, and non-fiction?


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## Congresspark (Jun 13, 2007)

phyrpowr said:


> I'll bet you read Henry James for pleasure:icon_smile_big:
> 
> BTW, anyone who wants to get into Faulkner, IMHO, do not start with "The Sound and the Fury". It's the culmination of a rather long line of work that begins, chronologically, with "Sartoris" and "The Unvanquished". It's fine on it's own of course as an example of stream of consciousness, but you won't really get any feel for who Quentin Compson is or why
> 
> The Hamlet, Town, Mansion trilogy is a stand alone and very instructive on Faulkner's obsession(?) with status.


Why else would you read Henry James?


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Congresspark said:


> Why else would you read Henry James?


For the sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll, of course.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Congresspark said:


> Why else would you read Henry James?


for penance


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

by Tad Friend,

This one just came out last year.

and

by Tom Lightfoot, edited by William C. Codington, American Blue Blood: The Challenge of Coming of Age in Upper-Class America

I know absolutely nothing about this book. It appears to be self-published.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

Three biographies by Matthew J. Bruccoli:

The O'Hara Concern: A Biography of John O'Hara

James Gould Cozzens: A World Apart

Some Sort of Epic Grandeur: The Life of F. Scott Fitzgerald

Wish I'd known about these while I was on a book buying spree a few weeks ago. . . Had y'all heard of Matthew Bruccoli? I hadn't, though he appears to be well known, especially as a Fitzgerald biographer.


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## Congresspark (Jun 13, 2007)

phyrpowr said:


> for penance


:icon_smile:

OK, OK, James is something of a writer's writer. But he does deal with concerns that might appeal to members of this forum: subtlety and decorum and the ways these are used in service of desire, power, privilege.

Perhaps Nicholas Shakespeare's fine biography of Bruce Chatwin doesn't exactly belong in this thread. But Chatwin had a lifelong love of Brooks Brothers shirts, and his own writing is elegant, restrained, confident, and pointed. Again, qualities some here might find sympathetic. It's also fascinating, given the number of worlds he managed to inhabit.


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## ds23pallas (Aug 22, 2006)

raincoat said:


> by Tad Friend,
> 
> This one just came out last year.
> 
> ...


Raincoat,

I have a copy of the "American Blue Blood" book somewhere. Not sure about it being self-published, or how I managed to get my hands on it if it was. If I recall correctly, it is the biographical story of a young college grad trying to make his way in the world. His is an old, wealthy Philadelphia family which provides little if any support to his efforts. Some aspects of the book I found somewhat interesting, but on the whole I would give it a pass.

I saw "Cheerful Money" soon after it was published, in a wonderful book shop in Concord, Massachussets last fall. I didn't buy it at the time, but may pick it up down the road.


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## TradMichael (Apr 13, 2006)

All three of those books are good reads. MJB is tops ... the most important editor after Max Perkins.



raincoat said:


> Three biographies by Matthew J. Bruccoli:
> 
> The O'Hara Concern: A Biography of John O'Hara
> 
> ...


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## North Woods (Mar 4, 2010)

*I have read both...*



raincoat said:


> by Tad Friend,
> 
> This one just came out last year.
> 
> ...


I read Tad Friend's book last fall and have just finished American Blue Blood. I definitely recommend the latter over the former. Tad writes for the New Yorker and is an excellent writer to be sure, but to quote a review on Amazon.com, his book is "too much Tad, not enough WASP." Meanwhile, American Blue Blood is the best novel I have seen about the decline and fall of upper class WASP splendor and hegemony during the last two decades of the 20th Century. A rightful successor to the stream of earlier books about the decline of the WASP by such authors as John Cheever, John P. Marquand, John O'Hara, etc.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Raincoat: I clicked on your Cavett link, skeptically, because I've always thought he was a twerp--but listening to Updike and Cheever brought tears to my eyes.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

North Woods said:


> I read Tad Friend's book last fall and have just finished American Blue Blood. I definitely recommend the latter over the former. Tad writes for the New Yorker and is an excellent writer to be sure, but to quote a review on Amazon.com, his book is "too much Tad, not enough WASP." Meanwhile, American Blue Blood is the best novel I have seen about the decline and fall of upper class WASP splendor and hegemony during the last two decades of the 20th Century. A rightful successor to the stream of earlier books about the decline of the WASP by such authors as John Cheever, John P. Marquand, John O'Hara, etc.


That's extremely high praise for American Blue Blood. A rightful successor to Cheever, Marquand, O'Hara? As this is your first post I find it hard to believe that you're not in some way connected to the author. I'm sorry if I'm out of line in saying that. There are 5 glowing reviews of American Blue Blood on amazon that all read like advertisements. I doubt ds23pallas, or anyone for that matter, would be unable to recognize a Cheever/Marqand/O'Hara successor. Anyway I do plan on reading it.

As for Cheerful Money, if it's well written that's reason enough to read it. For another reason, it's on one of our favorite topics!

Rambler: Glad you enjoyed the Cheever/Updike Cavett interview, but it's Joe Beamish who should be thanked for pointing it out to us. But yeah, that's a great interview.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

More books:

by Whit Stillman, The Last Days of Disco, With Cocktails at Petrossian Afterwards

Love the movies! Really want to read this book.

by Nathaniel Burt, The Perennial Philadelphians: The Anatomy of an American Aristocracy

by Beth Gutcheon, The New Girls

Don't know about this one. It appears to fit the bill.

These two I've wanted for a while:

Tipsy in Madras: A Complete 80s Guide to Preppy Drinking

The Wasp Cookbook

They're both out of print and go for high prices. . .

For those interested in English mid-century U vs. Non-U, the classic:

by Nancy Mitford, Noblesse Oblige

I can't find a cheap copy of this either.


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## North Woods (Mar 4, 2010)

raincoat said:


> That's extremely high praise for American Blue Blood. A rightful successor to Cheever, Marquand, O'Hara? As this is your first post I find it hard to believe that you're not in some way connected to the author. I'm sorry if I'm out of line in saying that. There are 5 glowing reviews of American Blue Blood on amazon that all read like advertisements. I doubt ds23pallas, or anyone for that matter, would be unable to recognize a Cheever/Marqand/O'Hara successor. Anyway I do plan on reading it.
> 
> As for Cheerful Money, if it's well written that's reason enough to read it. For another reason, it's on one of our favorite topics!
> 
> Rambler: Glad you enjoyed the Cheever/Updike Cavett interview, but it's Joe Beamish who should be thanked for pointing it out to us. But yeah, that's a great interview.


OK, maybe "Cheever/Marqand/O'Hara successor" is a little much. But here is what I am looking for: a novel that deals with the decline and fall of the upper class WASP in the Baby Boom era. Who has written on this subject the way Booth Tarkington did in his era (late 19th century), Marquand did in the 30's & 40's, O'Hara did then and later, Cheever did in the 60's, etc. There is no one who has written good fiction dealing with the decline and fall of upper class WASP splendor and hegemony in the Baby Boomer era. The only one I have found is American Blue Blood. Can anyone name some books? If not, there is an opportunity out there for someone.


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## Congresspark (Jun 13, 2007)

A few relevant passages from Patrica Highsmith's _The Talented Mr. Ripley_:



> 'I'll call you," Tom said. He felt he would faint if he stayed one minute longer in the dimly lighted foyer, but Mr. Greenleaf was chucking again, asking him if had read a certain book by Henry James.
> 'I'm sorry to say I haven't, sir, not that one,' Tom said.
> 'Well, no matter.' Mr. Greenleaf smiled.


Apparently, perhaps surprisingly, Mr. Greenleaf has read _The Ambassadors_.



> The next day he took care of Mrs. Greenleaf's commissions at Brooks Brothers, the dozen pair of black woolen socks and the bathrobe. Mrs. Greenleaf had not suggested a color for the bathrobe.She would leave that up to him, she had said. Tom chose a dark maroon flannel with a navy-blue belt and lapels.It was not the best looking-robe of the lot, in Tom's opinion, but he felt that it was exactly what Richard would have chosen, and that Richard would be delighted with it. He put the socks and the robe on the Greenleaf's charge account. He saw a heavy linen sport shirt with wooden buttons that he liked very much, that would have been easy to put on the Greenleaf's account too, but he didn't. He bought it with his own money.


And:



> "There were very few things that got under his skin, Tom thought self-justifyingly, but this was one of them: noisy surprises like this, the riffraff, the vulgarians, the slobs he thought he had left behind when he crossed the gangplank, littering the very stateroom where he was to spend the next five days!
> Tom went over to Paul Hubbard, the only respectable person in the room...'Hello, Paul,' he said quietly. 'I'm sorry about all this.


She's very clever, Patricia Highsmith.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

North Woods said:


> I read Tad Friend's book last fall and have just finished American Blue Blood. I definitely recommend the latter over the former. Tad writes for the New Yorker and is an excellent writer to be sure, but to quote a review on Amazon.com, his book is "too much Tad, not enough WASP." Meanwhile, American Blue Blood is the best novel I have seen about the decline and fall of upper class WASP splendor and hegemony during the last two decades of the 20th Century. A rightful successor to the stream of earlier books about the decline of the WASP by such authors as John Cheever, John P. Marquand, John O'Hara, etc.


Tom Wolfe, to some extent. _Bonfire of the Vanities _gets into the area of the "making money" vs. "having money" groups


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## Benson (Aug 28, 2009)

Seems I am in the minority regarding American Blue Blood but I found it a confused, inexpert piece of writing. The POV problems alone make one wonder why anyone continues to publish it at all.

Also, how is it that none of us has mentioned Digby Baltzell? Is he an assumed presence in this thread?
Benson


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

raincoat said:


> By Michael Knox Beran, The Last Patrician: Bobby Kennedy and the End of American Aristocracy
> 
> I read this over a year ago and can only remember enjoying it, no details. I may have heard about it on this board actually. Anyway I was looking through some notes I had taken while reading it and found mention of Nelson Aldrich, *Digby Baltzell*, Marquand, Johnson's Stover at Yale, Averell Harriman, George Plimpton, John Lindsay, and it just goes on and on.





septa said:


> I can't reccomend enough the work of *E. Digby Baltzell*. He wrote about the American upper class from the guilded age to the 1960s and 1970s. He isn't as dense as other professional historians/sociologists. His stuff is great check out "sporting gentlemen" his history of Tennis.


He's been mentioned sort of indirectly twice so, yes, he seems to be an assumed presence. I also think this thread has been a little more fiction oriented. But you're right, he deserves more attention.

I think in other threads (too lazy to look right now) it has been argued whether or not he invented the term WASP with the consensus being: he certainly popularized it, but it may have been in some usage before. I haven't yet read anything by him but look forward to doing so.

And as for American Blue Blood, I suspected as much. I think you're in the minority having read American Blue Blood at all. Still plan on reading it though, if only for its subject.

Phyrpowr: Good call on Tom Wolfe. I thought North Woods assertion that 


North Woods said:


> There is no one who has written good fiction dealing with the decline and fall of upper class WASP splendor and hegemony in the Baby Boomer era.


was absurd too.

Congresspark: Thanks for the _Ripley_ quotes. I bought a copy of Ripley's Game last summer but never read it. Hopefully this summer I will.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

Benson said:


> The POV problems alone make one wonder why anyone continues to publish it at all.


Forgot to comment: I think it is self-published.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

I've read a few by Baltzell, and knew him a little. He was an academic, so you have to be prepared for appendices and footnotes: maybe doesn't really fit in with the broad group, he's a sociologist and social historian. But fun to read--I'd add _Quaker Philadelphia and Puritan Boston _(may have the title backward) which I think is profoudly true, though others hate.


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## Benson (Aug 28, 2009)

And one can see why in the rather early going, but I thought it was being published by someone else now. The book is in my office so I'll check later today.

As for Baltzell, any number of his texts are worth reading, but The Protestant Establishment and Puritan Boston and Quaker Philadelphia are particularly note-worthy.



raincoat said:


> Forgot to comment: I think it is self-published.


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## North Woods (Mar 4, 2010)

phyrpowr said:


> Tom Wolfe, to some extent. _Bonfire of the Vanities _gets into the area of the "making money" vs. "having money" groups


Yes, I agree, Bonfire of the Vanities is probably the best fiction on the decline and fall of upper class hegemony and splendor in the last decades of the 20th century.


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## North Woods (Mar 4, 2010)

North Woods said:


> Yes, I agree, Bonfire of the Vanities is probably the best fiction on the decline and fall of upper class hegemony and splendor in the last decades of the 20th century.


I have read all of Baltzell, and I do recommend him. Of course, the Philadelphia described in his books is no longer. Nevertheless, they are a fascinating look backwards. The decline and fall of upper class WASP hegemony is described well by Columbia University professor Warren Christopher in Crashing the Gates: The De-Wasping of America's Power Elite...lots of fun facts like: "though Episcopalians account for only 3% of the population, they supplied one-third of the chief executive officers of the nation's 500 largest industrial corporations as recently as the 1950s." An incredibly scrupulous accounting of the decline and fall of WASP hegemny is Berkley professor Jerome Karabel's The Chosen: The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton...100 pages of detailed footnotes that are worth reading but it will take you twice as long to read this tome. More controversial but very thought provoking is Harvard professor's Samuel P. Huntington's Who Are We?: The Challenges to America's National Identity.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Anyone looking for a specific theme or subject (e.g., rise and fall of blue bloods) is probably best served reading non-fiction. Fiction, I couldn't care less what the subject is. Just whether it's a great story written in a way that brings its own revelations. But then our education does tend to have us reading programmatically.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

TradMichael said:


> All three of those books are good reads. MJB is tops ... the most important editor after Max Perkins.


This gives me an opening to recommend A. Scott Berg's biography _Max Perkins: An Editor of Genius_ (1978).

Matthew Bruccoli also put out a collection of MP's correspondence w/ Fitzgerald, Hemingway, and Thomas Wolfe. It's called _The Sons of Maxwell Perkins._

I'm surprised that Louis Auchincloss's name hasn't come up on this thread yet.

There's book I came across decades ago in grad school that might be of interest to some. The tome is Edwin Harrison Cady's 1949 book _The Gentleman in America: A Literary Study in American Culture._

https://www.questia.com/library/boo...n-american-culture-by-edwin-harrison-cady.jsp


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

PJC in NoVa said:


> There's book I came across decades ago in grad school that might be of interest to some. The tome is Edwin Harrison Cady's 1949 book _The Gentleman in America: A Literary Study in American Culture._
> 
> https://www.questia.com/library/boo...n-american-culture-by-edwin-harrison-cady.jsp


That looks really interesting.



PJC in NoVa said:


> I'm surprised that Louis Auchincloss's name hasn't come up on this thread yet.


Rector of Justin was mentioned in the first post of this thread (highly recommended to anyone who hasn't read it yet). He's written so much though. I picked up a collection containing three of his novels called Family Fortunes for cheap at Half Price Books some time ago. It includes The Rector of Justin, The House of Five Talents, and Portrait in Brownstone. I've also been wanting to read his short biography of Theodore Roosevelt.

Here's a recent (2008) article from The Washington Post on The Rector of Justin:


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

raincoat said:


> That looks really interesting.
> 
> Rector of Justin was mentioned in the first post of this thread (highly recommended to anyone who hasn't read it yet). He's written so much though. I picked up a collection containing three of his novels called Family Fortunes for cheap at Half Price Books some time ago. It includes The Rector of Justin, The House of Five Talents, and Portrait in Brownstone. I've also been wanting to read his short biography of Theodore Roosevelt.
> 
> Here's a recent (2008) article from The Washington Post on The Rector of Justin:


His short bio of Woodrow Wilson is ever better - highly recommended.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Whoops, I didn't reread the whole thread; my bad.

I did not know about the Wilson and TR bios. They are now on the "to read" list.

I wonder if anyone knows Van Wyck Brooks's 1944 study _The World of Washington Irving_?

If you dip into Cady and find that worthwhile, Brooks's work might be of interest as well.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

Keeping this thread alive.

After seeing _Greenberg_ I've been reading a lot about Noah Baumbach and found out that he is currently attached to two book adaptations that might interest people who have enjoyed this thread so far. I haven't read either of them (yet).

By Claire Messud, _The Emperor's Children_
From the New Yorker: " In this witty examination of New York's chattering classes. . ." was enough to entice me.

By Curtis Sittenfeld, _Prep_
May have already been mentioned. I've known about this one for a while but was always put off by the cover. Actually gave this one to my mother for Christmas. She enjoyed it. Might swallow my pride (the cover) and give it a read now that Baumbach may do an adaptation.

Highly recommend _Greenberg_ by the way. Anything Baumbach's attached to actually. Come to think of it, I may have first heard about _Kicking and Screaming_ on one of this forum's movie threads.


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## Oviatt (Jan 29, 2007)

Scott Berg's biography of Max Perkins is a must read. I am surprised that nobody mentioned "The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit"--or maybe someone did.... Also, the novels of Dawn Powell ("Angels on Toast" is a favorite) are very trad, as she was one of Perkins' authors.


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## ds23pallas (Aug 22, 2006)

raincoat said:


> By Curtis Sittenfeld, _Prep_
> May have already been mentioned. I've known about this one for a while but was always put off by the cover. Actually gave this one to my mother for Christmas. She enjoyed it. Might swallow my pride (the cover) and give it a read now that Baumbach may do an adaptation.


Raincoat,

I read _Prep_ several years ago. I can't recall the specifics, but I do recall enjoying it at the time. I like Sittenfeld's writing style.

Currently I am reading "_I Am Charlotte Simmons_" and am for the most part enjoying it as well. I am alternating this with a re-read of "_BCBG, Le guide de bon chic bon genre_". It's a sort of French OPH.


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

-_Old School_ by Tobias Wolff was a fun read with a boarding school setting. -Cameos by Ayn Rand, Robert Frost (tres trad), and Ernest Hemingway.
-_This Side of Paradise_, F. Scott Fitzgerald
-_Tender is the Night_, F. Scott Fitzgerald
-A lot of Faulkner when discussing the Sartorises and Compsons


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

ds23pallas said:


> I am alternating this with a re-read of "_BCBG, Le guide de bon chic bon genre_". It's a sort of French OPH.


I've heard of that. Need to try and find a copy. I'm guessing that since you're re-reading it you enjoyed it the first time around? Worth tracking a copy down?

I started a thread a little while ago on The Sloane Ranger Handbook which is kind of similar I guess. It'd be interesting to compare BCBG with the SRH.


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## ds23pallas (Aug 22, 2006)

raincoat said:


> I've heard of that. Need to try and find a copy. I'm guessing that since you're re-reading it you enjoyed it the first time around? Worth tracking a copy down?
> 
> I started a thread a little while ago on The Sloane Ranger Handbook which is kind of similar I guess. It'd be interesting to compare BCBG with the SRH.


Well, I probably read BCBG in the 80's or early 90's first itme around so it's almost like reading it again for the first time. I also have the OPH and had a copy of The Sloane Ranger Handbook (I passed that along to a fellow forum member last year).

I think BCBG is a worthwhile read, if you know French that is. It would be useful to know something about Paris, and France in general to "get" some of their references. I do recall that both BCBG and the OPH referenced the Peugeot 505 as part of their respective automotive selections. I drove a 505 for many years and still remember it fondly.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

I think with a dictionary on hand I'd be able to handle it. My French isn't terrible.

Speaking of the _Sloane Ranger Handbook_, have y'all heard of (or read) the _Sloane Ranger Diary_? As far as I can tell it was published simultaneously with the handbook but doesn't get mentioned nearly as often. I got a copy in the mail a few weeks ago and it's a pretty fun read. It's set up as a month by month description of what "sloanes" do during the year.


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## raincoat (Oct 31, 2009)

Don't know if people here watch Lost. Tuesday's episode featured a *rabbit* named *Angstrom*.

One more reason to love that show.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

*Recommend Cady*

After seeing PJC's post above mentioning Cady's _The Gentleman in America,_ I asked the university library to retrieve a copy from deep storage, and I have just finished it. Drawing from both historical and literary sources, Cady conveys how we came to be where we were at the middle of the last century. Especially, he points out that in the United States, a man could "become" a gentleman through his own efforts and behavior. Those who are dismayed by current declines in character and manners (and, of course, dress) will find no comfort in Cady, because he makes a persuasive case for the value of qualities that seem now to be lost. That said, the book is worth reading by anyone with the time, inclination and habits of mind to enjoy academic scholarship as it was some sixty years ago.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

blastandcast said:


> May I suggest Neal Holland Duncan's triology about New Orleans (Baby Soniat, Carnival of Souls and Naked in Rhodendrons) and Bachelor Society by Charles Poulnot which is about Charleston. Both are entertaining reads about the older families of both towns and how they adjust (or don't) to the changes in both towns. The undercurrents of all of these novels is that "progress" is destroying the unique sense of place which make up the traditions and culture of both societies. The wardrobe of the main characters would be familiar to most members of this board (for example, the protagonist of Duncan's novels is described as wearing weejuns, Brooks Brother button down and madras bermuda shorts). B&C


I am rather excited to read the books you have suggested. I am a big fan of both cities and their traditions.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I doubt it's too trad, but my personal favorite novel is coincidentally often cited as the first novel in modern English. The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling, by Henry Fielding. It is a great book and will have you in stitches from start to finish. It is basically about a philandering young man in the English countryside trying to find himself, and then he becomes quite rich.


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## Congresspark (Jun 13, 2007)

*Robert Lowell*

The current issue of _agni_, a literary journal published through Boston University, has a terrific portfolio of photos of Robert Lowell, along with a selection of brief remembrances of him (how many American writers get a fond story from a member of Margaret Thatcher's cabinet?). The issue isn't viewable online, but here's a link to the cover with a partial view of one of the photos:

https://www.bu.edu/agni/toc/75/index.html


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