# How do you know if your shoe is the right fit?



## eddiel (Feb 9, 2010)

Hi All

This might sound like a doofus question but I'm quite confused.

For most of my shoe buying life I've either had shoes that fit to tightly or were too loose. I'm referring to formal shoes here such as brogues.

Normally I get an 8F (UK sizing). They can be quite tight but after a few wears they stretch out and although still quite tight I can live with them.

I did a bit of research and I do have wide feet and I think my correct width would be a G. I actually have a pair of Alfred Sargent 8.5 FX brogues and they are far too loose. (I've taken to fitting them with an insole to make the fit a little tighter. I don't wear them much at all except at work. However I am going to sell them on ebay since I would rather find a shoe that fits better).

The reason I'm asking the question is that today I popped into the Barker Regent St (London) store today and tried on an 8G brogue that was on sale. I expected the fit to be looser than a normal 8F shoe that I've tried (albeit not a Barker).

I would expect a new shoe to be somewhat tight but how tight is tight? 

Are there some tips and guidelines I should follow?

For example the general rule I use at the moment is that I always ensure my toes aren't cramped in and can be wiggled within the shoe. I also expect there to be no more than an inch between the end of my big toe and the end of the shoe.

Any advice is most welcome. I've always been a fan of shoes and always wanted to build a good shoe wardrobe. I'm at a stage where I can now afford to (within reason; no bespoke for me!) but I want to ensure I go about it in the right way.

Thanks in advance

Eddie


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Snug is good. Tight is bad. If they are tight when you first try then on (dry), they will be exceptionally tight after you have sweated into them (about 4-8oz per day). Most textiles (which I believe includes leather) shrink when wet.

I made the mistake of purchasing the wrong size patent pumps when in Hong Kong a few years back. Size conversion between European & US wasn't listed, so I went with what felt right, and ended up with a size that was literally two sizes small. Long story short $100US down the drain (gorgeous pair of shoes too).

Use the Brannock? device if they have one. Right foot is bigger than left foot, so always try that one on first, and make sure you are wearing the right kind of socks.


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## JerseyJohn (Oct 26, 2007)

The thing you have to watch is compensating for a shoe that's too narrow by going too long (or vice versa). When in doubt, try bracketing up or down a size and a width.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

My advice:
1. Avoid buying shoes without trying them on and walk around the store, to get an idea of fit. If you plan to ever purchase online, find out about the return procedure.

2. Get measured using a Brannock device on both feet, if possible.

3. Try on both shoes.

You may need 8.5F on a certain Barkers model and or last, but you will not be 8.5F for all their shoes.

I have Church's in 7.5F, 8F and 8.5F. 
I tried on Edward Green's Chelsea model in a few sizes before deciding on a size; 8.5E fit but too loose when walking, 8E fit and when I walked in the shoes knew it was the size required. 8G was an opinion, but did not try them on.
_Note; Church's F is medium width, Edward Green's E is medium width and F slightly wide width.

_In terms of gap around the toe area (in general), a traditional round toe should have less gap whereas a pointy toe or narrower toe would have more gap. It is difficult to say there should be a certain gap.


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## Lowndes (Feb 25, 2008)

My advice when buying nice shoes is to have the guy measure both of your feet and then bring out the shoes that he thinks will fit you the best. Try on various sizes but don't let the salesman tell you the size. Just purchase whatever size feels the best. I've never gone wrong with this method. This will help prevent you from purchasing the size of shoe you think you should be.


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## Nerev (Apr 25, 2009)

If you have a compentant sales associate, always get your feet measured and see what the sales associate says. When they bring out a pair, try them on. A little bit tight is fine and if it is calf skin, it'll stretch just a little bit and be snug. Snug is also fine, and this is when you are walking around and your entire foot feels fully emcompassed with no loose or empty spots. If you put your heel down and you can wiggle the widest part of your foot, the width is too big. If you walk around and the heel feels like it is slipping, the lenght is too long. Reverse if there is tightness.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

Apatheticviews said:


> Snug is good. Tight is bad. If they are tight when you first try then on (dry), they will be exceptionally tight after you have sweated into them (about 4-8oz per day). Most textiles (which I believe includes leather) shrink when wet.
> 
> I made the mistake of purchasing the wrong size patent pumps when in Hong Kong a few years back. Size conversion between European & US wasn't listed, so I went with what felt right, and ended up with a size that was literally two sizes small. Long story short $100US down the drain (gorgeous pair of shoes too).
> 
> Use the Brannock? device if they have one. Right foot is bigger than left foot, so always try that one on first, and make sure you are wearing the right kind of socks.


Right foot is bigger than the left foot, so always try that one on first......???? Is that some scientific fact someone forgot to tell me during my 20+ years of practice treating the foot and ankle medically and surgically????

I can tell you as a matter-of-fact that statement is absolutely false. In actuality, in my "couple of years" of experience, I have actually found that the left is more often the larger foot. However, there is no rule and this will vary from individual to individual.

Correct width is a tricky question, but when running your finger across the top of the shoe, there should be some slight give in the material with no deep creases indicated excess bulk.

A general rule for length is that you should have the width of a thumb between the end of the shoe and the longest toe.

In addition to making sure that BOTH feet are measured with a Brannock device by someone experienced, it is also important that you try on shoes toward the middle to the end of the day to compensate for edema/swelling that naturally occurs in even the healthiest of individuals.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Don't know about everyone, but the Brannock Device (love it, never knew the name) always shows me 10 1/2 in the L and 11 in the R, and I'll be damned if I'm going to buy 2 pair to make one. What do you recommend, Doc?


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

DocD said:


> Right foot is bigger than the left foot, so always try that one on first......???? Is that some scientific fact someone forgot to tell me during my 20+ years of practice treating the foot and ankle medically and surgically????


I stand corrected. It was something I picked up up "somewhere" (I don't remember where now, honestly) but the logic made sense at the time, so it stuck with me.

But you'll notice I did say to use the Brannock and to try on the right foot FIRST (implying to try on both). If one foot doesn't fit, it doesn't matter if the other does. No point in putting on both shoes is the point.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Eddiel, if you can get a basic backpacking book, e.g. Colin Fletcher or the like, they'll run you through the "musts" of getting a fit in a backpacking boot, where it's critical. Same rules and tests apply


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Apatheticviews said:


> Snug is good. Tight is bad. If they are tight when you first try then on (dry), they will be exceptionally tight after you have sweated into them (about 4-8oz per day). Most textiles (which I believe includes leather) shrink when wet.
> 
> Use the Brannock device, if they have one. Right foot is bigger than left foot, so always try that one on first, and make sure you are wearing the right kind of socks.


Am not going with much of what you've said, beginning with feet sweating 8 ounces a day. 8 ounces is a cup of coffee. My feet do not sweat a cup of coffee a day. Shoes stretch with wearing, not the opposite. Right foot larger than left? The reverse with me. But this is really erratic....



> I went with what felt right, and ended up with a size that was literally two sizes small. Long story short $100US down the drain


It's what _feels right _that's important, always; not what's printed on the tag.
​


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

Surprised no one has mentioned that the ball of the foot needs to be at the widest point in the shoe.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*It depends . . .*



Apatheticviews said:


> Right foot is bigger than left foot, so always try that one on first, and make sure you are wearing the right kind of socks.


. . . on the individual, as in most things. My left foot is larger than my right, so I have learned to try on both. I'm never going to walk around a store with only one of a pair of shoes on. Also, if I'm not mistaken, feet generally swell over the course of a day and when the barometric pressure is dropping. The latter is the reason some people can detect a change in the weather: Their feet are pressing more against the insides of their shoes and they can feel it - especially if they have foot problems like bunions or corns. Feet will swell a bit on a flight. So if you remove your shoes on a long flight, expect them to feel tighter on landing.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Glad to hear that, BB, I took my shoes off on a flight to sF last year, and couldn't put em on when we got there; my wife asked me what style of coffin I preferred :icon_smile_big:!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> It's what _feels right _that's important, always; not what's printed on the tag.
> ​


They actually were TWO (EU) sizes too small was the problem (About a half US Size). When I got around to wearing them back home I could fit into them but after wearing them for about 15 minutes they were far too tight. They climate in Hong Kong was different enough from my normal US area that it affected my ability to tell.

Basically it was a $100 dollar object lesson from going on what felt right, rather than comparing the right size AND what felt right. Had I known they were 6.5-7US shoes, I would have definitely swayed a half size larger just to be sure.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

What a bunch of crappy advice. Here's the answer:

Wear them for a day. Take them off. Stand up. 

If you can still walk, they fit fine.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> Am not going with much of what you've said, beginning with feet sweating 8 ounces a day. 8 ounces is a cup of coffee. My feet do not sweat a cup of coffee a day.​


A simple google search will give you the answer to this one.

I actually picked up this little tidbit when I was an arms dealer, selling tactical equipment, including boots & socks. It surprised me too, being a rather disgusting figure.


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## MF177 (Jun 10, 2009)

Apatheticviews said:


> Snug is good. Tight is bad. If they are tight when you first try then on (dry), they will be exceptionally tight after you have sweated into them (about 4-8oz per day). Most textiles (which I believe includes leather) shrink when wet.


most textiles *expand* when moisture level is higher


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

MF177 said:


> most textiles *expand* when moisture level is higher


Right. My bad. I think it's that they "feel" tighter when wet. Because they're full of water. I'm getting confused. Something about about ropes, knots, and water, and making them tighter. Please ignore the man behind the curtain.


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## dormat029 (Mar 28, 2010)

I have different sizes in the majority of my shoes. Some are different widths as well. As far as trying shoes on, I would say it doesn't even matter. I have had shoes that fit perfectly initially trying them on and by the end of the day my feet killed ($90 rockport from macy's). Just by a quality shoe and all should be well. The great thing about the internet is that you can find out so much information about what a particular shoe does over time by researching it a bit.


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## stevelovescufflinks (Jan 9, 2010)

*ferragamo not so hot*

I have to tell u that sometimes a brand does not mean a perfect fit. I have two pairs of ferragamo shoes and they definitely hurt. My pair of rockports feel much better. Sad but true

cuff links fit much more like a standard fit on every man... too bad shoes can't be the same.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

eddiel said:


> Hi All
> 
> I also expect there to be no more than an inch between the end of my big toe and the end of the shoe.


It sounds like you're expecting shoes to be unnecessarily roomy lengthways while snug sideways. Well that shoe doesn't exist. "No more than an inch" is a lot of extra room in an adult's shoe and puts you into the next size! Your toes should be touching the front of the shoe WITHOUT being cramped, they shouldn't have up to an inch free space.
This expectation of "toe-wiggle" room probably explains why you find shoes too loose because you're buying a size too large.

Sounds to me like you need an 8G.....Alternatively stop fannying around with the exactitudes and quirks of expensive English shoes and buy something cheaper off the rack, where sizes are what they say on the label. I think with your feet off the rack might be a wiser choice, economically at least.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Your toes should be touching the front of the shoe WITHOUT being cramped


This is entirely untrue. There should always be space ahead of the toes. An inch would be excessive in a shoe with a wide, rounded toe, but in a sleeker shoe with a narrow tapered toe, an inch of space could very possibly be correct.

As _finally _mentioned above, the correct measure for length is when the widest part of the foot coincides with the widest part of the shoe. 
It has nothing to do with toe room. On a well designed shoe, the other dimensions having to do with length will fall into place, as long as the last is one that favors the particular individuals foot. If that is not the case, one should seek a shoe on a different last.

Other important aspects of fit are that there is ample room in the toe box for the toes to fit without being cramped and the heel area fits snugly but is not overly tight. These both are a function of width, rather than length, as long as the length is otherwise correct, and the last is a good fit.
(And it is not at all uncommon for feet to be narrow in the heel but wide in the toe. This is the reason for the combination last.)

Also, the shoe should be snug but not tight over the instep. On a laced shoes, the laces should be able to close the shoe properly, but not fully closed without any further room to tighten once the shoes have stretched.

..And calfskin shoes _will _stretch. If a shoe is "just right" when first tried on (with no room in lacing to tighten it up), or just a little loose, there is a good chance that it could become too loose once it has been worn several times and has stretched.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> According to whom? And based on what, do you say that?
> All of my shoes/boots have no more than millimetres between toes and shoe and all are supremely comfortable, from my 5 pairs of Dr. Martens to my various dress shoes and many pairs of trainers.
> 
> Only in children's shoes should there be "growth" room. Adult shoes should be snug i.e. fit correctly.


Did anyone say anything about "growth" room?
No. Not until you mentioned the term.

I will again quote that which I responded to:



Earl of Ormonde said:


> Your toes should be touching the front of the shoe


And will repeat again that that statement is entirely incorrect.

Many people believe that their improperly fitted shoes are comfortable, as that is what they have become accustomed to. These same people are often quite surprised to discover the difference once they wear shoes that _are _a proper fit.

Please do a little research on shoe fit. (I shall not do it for you.)
I believe you will find yourself enlightened.

You might start your quest by scrolling up until you find a post in this thread, written by a _foot doctor_, where he states:



DocD said:


> A general rule for length is that you should have the width of a thumb between the end of the shoe and the longest toe.


Perhaps you would also like to lecture him, regarding his lack of knowledge about shoe fit?


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> What a bunch of crappy advice. Here's the answer:
> 
> Wear them for a day. Take them off. Stand up.
> 
> If you can still walk, they fit fine.


Ha, now THAT'S funny! Can I re-arrange that logic and "assume" you tell your clients that as long as the buttons don't pop open the shirts fit perfectly!


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

DocD said:


> Ha, now THAT'S funny! Can I re-arrange that logic and "assume" you tell your clients that as long as the buttons don't pop open the shirts fit perfectly!


Buttons? Buttons cost extra.


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## eddiel (Feb 9, 2010)

ToryBoy said:


> 2. Get measured using a Brannock device on both feet, if possible.


I remember as a kid everytime I went in to buy shoes with my Mom my feet were plopped into one of those things. I notice the stores around here have similar devices. I never used them though as I didn't really intend to buy anything from them and I thought it would be rude to get my feet measured and then just walk out. The Barker shop didn't have any devices otherwise I would have asked.



Earl of Ormonde said:


> All of my shoes/boots have no more than millimetres between toes and shoe and all are supremely comfortable, from my 5 pairs of Dr. Martens to my various dress shoes and many pairs of trainers.


I just rechecked and I think my 1 inch estimate was wildely off. It's closer to 1/2 inch. Millimetres sounds kind of tight.

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Eddie


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

eddiel said:


> I just rechecked and I think my 1 inch estimate was wildely off. It's closer to 1/2 inch. Millimetres sounds kind of tight.


Your estimate may not be as far off as you might think...
After reading what the good doctor had to say...


DocD said:


> A general rule for length is that you should have the width of a thumb between the end of the shoe and the longest toe.


...I (out of curiosity) placed my thumb against a ruler. The measured width was almost exactly 1 inch.

(And yes, sparse millimeters of toe room would be inadequate.)

Of course my thumbs might be wider than others, and as I mentioned previously, the style of the shoe will make a difference, but I believe there are likely many cases in which a inch of toe room would be not at all excessive.


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## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> , the style of the shoe will make a difference, but I believe there are likely many cases in which a inch of toe room would be not at all excessive.


+1

I have some properly fitted italian shoes with very pointy toes that have over 1.25" of space. Would folks here like the style? Probably not but these shoes are my most comfortable and the space is definitely there. In fact take any bespoke fitted traditional round too shoe and I am sure I can easily add 3/4" of toe length to make it pointy and fashion forward without affecting fit in any way whatsoever.

An other example: roach killer toe cowboy boots. Anyone think these have less than 1" of toe space!


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## MF177 (Jun 10, 2009)

Apatheticviews said:


> Right. My bad. I think it's that they "feel" tighter when wet. Because they're full of water. I'm getting confused. Something about about ropes, knots, and water, and making them tighter. Please ignore the man behind the curtain.


yep i agree


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## Zingari (Jul 9, 2007)

There are many 'techniques' for stretching a shoe in the width - which can include a special spray or wetting them from the inside or using a special device. If you can't get your perfect width then this could be an option for you.

Leather will stretch especially after it has been wet.


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## eddiel (Feb 9, 2010)

Zingari said:


> There are many 'techniques' for stretching a shoe in the width - which can include a special spray or wetting them from the inside or using a special device. If you can't get your perfect width then this could be an option for you.
> 
> Leather will stretch especially after it has been wet.


My current technique involves wearing them until they stretch :icon_smile:

Causes some soreness but it works.

The real pain is that many of the styles (of shoe) that I like don't come in larger widths.

Eddie


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