# New made in USA OCBD shirts from Brooks Brothers released



## adoucett

A poster on the NavyBlazer reddit page came across a rather interesting discovery today.

In the new lineup of Spring items from Brooks, they appear to have released a new, perhaps much requested, line of oxford shirts 

These are priced at $140, which is 40% more than the previous line of must-irons.

The description reads as follows: 

"The shirt that started a revolution in menswear started at Brooks Brothers, and we've brought it back home along with authentic details. It's made from long-lasting oxford cloth that gets better over time, and we've restored the signature rolled collar, softening it along with the placket and cuffs for comfort. We've added genuine mother-of-pearl buttons as well as gussets along the side seams for durability. Each shirt is made in our North Carolina workrooms from American-grown Supima® cotton-just what you would expect from The Original American Brand. Machine wash."

"The Regent fit is a modern trim fit with chest and sleeves cut slimmer to the body. Also available in Madison and Milano fit."

*The current color offerings:
*


Green, purple, and yellow university stripe
Solid white and blue
Blue uni stripe
Solid pink and purple

As a possibly more frightening note, the* existing line of Made in USA* must irons are all currently *discounted to $79* -- possibly indicating they are getting rid of them in favor of the new, pricier shirts. Not a bad time to buy one, but I'd like to hear if anyone knows anything else about this. 

With the phaseout of Black Fleece, these will fill the niche of USA must-irons with MOP buttons nicely at a lower cost, but I'd rather not see the current ones go away completely, especially at the sub-$100 price point. 

Discuss!


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## Duvel

Nice! I haven't heard anything about this. I don't like the price jump, of course, but I do like the new offering. As I have a pretty good rotation of the sub-$100 shirts, I'll probably just add the new ones here and there when I feel I can afford one or two.


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## SlideGuitarist

Maybe aqua looks good against really fair complexions? But I would get the purple university stripe in a heartbeat. ADoucett, your first link is broken...but I fixed it for you! https://www.brooksbrothers.com/Rege...al-Stripe-Dress-Shirt/ME02337,default,pd.html


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## my19

When will we see the first "3 for $225" sale? That would be a happy day.


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## Ensiferous

"...we've restored the signature rolled collar, softening it..."

Interesting confession of an error, and surprisingly an admission of the correction of the misstep.

But the image doesn't show a collar any different than current Regent/132Q. (?)


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## Duvel

I do wonder how much difference there really is, that is, how much noticeable difference. In any case, it's sure not enough to make me go running for the Brooks card and ordering a bunch of shirts.


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## FLMike

Ensiferous said:


> "...we've restored the signature rolled collar, softening it..."
> 
> Interesting confession of an error, and surprisingly an admission of the correction of the misstep.
> 
> But the image doesn't show a collar any different than current Regent/132Q. (?)


I agree. I don't see anything to warrant an additional $45 per shirt. I've been pretty darn pleased with the 132Q/133Q. The new colors are interesting, though. With the old OCBDs marked down to $79, it does look like they are phasing out the old OCBD and phasing in the new, more expensive one. Both are made in USA, so again, what are the changes worth a 47% price increase? A softer collar, placket, and cuff? Hmmm.

Either way, this is probably the biggest news to hit the Trad Forum since I've been here (OK, the Bills meltdown was a pretty big deal, too). Thanks for the heads up, adoucett.


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## adoucett

Duvel said:


> I do wonder how much difference there really is, that is, how much noticeable difference. In any case, it's sure not enough to make me go running for the Brooks card and ordering a bunch of shirts.


I'm hoping to do a side-by-side comparison soon, even if it's very unlikely I'll purchase one at full price. I have a friend who works in the BB store in Boston, so I'm going to ask if he can do some reconnaissance if/when they come in.


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## Fading Fast

Adoucett, thank you for the heads up - just grabbed the last blue on in my size and fit.


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## CSG

This is what I alluded to in a couple earlier threads. I'd spoken to a VP at BB after returning one of their must iron shirts and asking to speak to someone who could address my concerns. He called me a couple days later and confessed their sins on the current line of must iron USA shirts. He told me about the new shirts coming in mid-January but I promised to say nothing.

Honestly though, for that money, I would go elsewhere. $140 is too big a jump from the previous line, especially for an off the rack shirt. Maybe in June if they're half off...


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## ROI

These sound suspiciously like the "Own Make" oxfords (and a few other basic fabrics) from a couple years ago that turned out to be so slim that they inhabited the 50%-70% off bin for several seasons. Let's hope the Bros decide to offer them in the original full-cut configuration.


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## Chillburgher

Love the new colors. Do not love the new price. Glad I've stocked up on these in recent years.


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## Duvel

I have to say I have not been displeased with the shirts I've purchased in recent years. I'm not sure I agree there's a reason to change, even if it is for the supposedly elusive roll. In the meantime, I will continue to launder mine with care.


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## HerrDavid

I'm curious as to what "softening" means exactly. Unlined? If so, why not come out and say it explicitly?


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## Ensiferous

FLCracka said:


> I've been pretty darn pleased with the 132Q/133Q. The new colors are interesting, though. With the old OCBDs marked down to $79, it does look like they are phasing out the old OCBD and phasing in the new, more expensive one. Both are made in USA, so again, what are the changes worth a 47% price increase? A softer collar, placket, and cuff? Hmmm.


Hmmm indeed. Want that lost, critical 1/4" of collar back? Give us an additional $50, please! :devil: I'm not bashing, I love those shirts, and look forward to their improvement/restoration, but not as a pretext for a large price increase.

When on the phone with BB recently, asking why such limited size availability of the 132Q/133Q, the rep said "Yeah, they are trying to clear those out." I replied "What?!" But brushed it off as the rep not knowing anything and just throwing out a guess. I think now that he knew something. A shirt conspiracy was afoot.


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## Duvel

Does this mean that in a couple of years our "old" 132/3Qs will become sought-after collector's items? "You know, I'm really nostalgic for that slightly shorter collar point."



Ensiferous said:


> Hmmm indeed. Want that lost, critical 1/4" of collar back? Give us an additional $50, please! :devil: I'm not bashing, I love those shirts, and look forward to their improvement/restoration, but not as a pretext for a large price increase.
> 
> When on the phone with BB recently, asking why such limited size availability of the 132Q/133Q, the rep said "Yeah, they are trying to clear those out." I replied "What?!" But brushed it off as the rep not knowing anything and just throwing out a guess. I think now that he knew something. A shirt conspiracy was afoot.


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## HerrDavid

Ensiferous said:


> Hmmm indeed. Want that lost, critical 1/4" of collar back? Give us an additional $50, please! :devil: I'm not bashing, I love those shirts, and look forward to their improvement/restoration, but not as a pretext for a large price increase./QUOTE]
> 
> Well, at least Mercer's can be considered an "inexpensive" option now!


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## niv

I give props to BB for constantly managing to bury new items on their website. I looked for new stuff there this morning and didn't find these shirts. I may go ahead and get one of these OCBD. I'm not a fan of their current OCBD offerings and I'm hoping they've seen the light.


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## xcubbies

Do you know if they offer those in a tapered look?


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## adoucett

xcubbies said:


> Do you know if they offer those in a tapered look?


The regent (slim) and milano (extra slim) fits are offered.


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## oxford cloth button down

I knew a change was coming as I had said in a previous thread. They have not replenished sizes in months. What a time to be in need of a new rotation of OCBDs.


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## Fading Fast

From the new shirts description on the website: "...Each shirt is made in our North Carolina workrooms from American-grown Supima® cotton-just what you would expect from The Original American Brand. Machine wash."

Just what you would expect from the Original American Brand because "made in the USA" is a good marketing angle today; tomorrow, when it isn't as in vogue, we'll move it over seas, or change it in some other way.

I am not a Brooks hater, but I hate when a brand uses its legacy, its heritage as a marketing ploy when it suits it; when it acts like it is some core company value when, in truth, it's just an of-the-moment business decision.

The day their marketing team thinks a less-expensive, overseas version will be more profitable and not hurt sales too much, the "made in the USA" thing will quietly disappear.

It's obnoxious and insulting to its customers.


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## FLMike

Fading Fast said:


> From the new shirts description on the website: "...Each shirt is made in our North Carolina workrooms from American-grown Supima® cotton-just what you would expect from The Original American Brand. Machine wash."
> 
> Just what you would expect from the Original American Brand because "made in the USA" is a good marketing angle today; tomorrow, when it isn't as in vogue, we'll move it over seas, or change it in some other way.
> 
> I am not a Brooks hater, but I hate when a brand uses its legacy, its heritage as a marketing ploy when it suits it; when it acts like it is some core company value when, in truth, it's just an of-the-moment business decision.
> 
> The day their marketing team thinks a less-expensive, overseas version will be more profitable and not hurt sales too much, the "made in the USA" thing will quietly disappear.
> 
> It's obnoxious and insulting to its customers.


FF, I get your point, but I think the most insulting part about it is that it's not new. It's just business as usual, with respect to its must-iron OCBD, but with a 47% higher price. That's what's insulting.


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## Fading Fast

FLCracka said:


> FF, I get your point, but I think the most insulting part about it is that it's not new. It's just business as usual, with respect to its must-iron OCBD, but with a 47% higher price. That's what's insulting.


very good point


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## SlideGuitarist

FLCracka said:


> FF, I get your point, but I think the most insulting part about it is that it's not new. It's just business as usual, with respect to its must-iron OCBD, but with a 47% higher price. That's what's insulting.


Maybe what I'm about to say is so self-evident that none of you needed to bother saying it, but Brooks Bros. has perhaps just figured out that these shirts appeal mostly to specialized customers. I had some trouble finding the classic must-iron poinpoints, whereas you'd think they'd foreground those. So they raise the price of the OCBDs, add some "features," and offer some sorely missed colors. I'd happily have continued buying a few of the current model every year, as I find them useful, durable, and attractive.

I guess at this point we need to compare them in terms of value to Mercer's offerings?


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## August West

I think you hit the nail on the head slide. 

i just purchased the last blue madison in my size. The corporate discount didn't apply, so I wound up paying $79.50 which is far more than I've ever paid for one of these. Normally sale prices put them in the $5X.00 range when buying multiples. I'd like to keep this one in reserve for as long as possible. 

I can't imagine what the wait for a tapered Mercer is going to be now. Months I'd guess.


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## WillBarrett

Well I'd been planning to save for a stack of the old OCBDs but that's for naught. No way I'm paying that much money unless I'm buying just one a year - at which point I'd just as well try J. Press, Mercer or Michael Spencer.

In the meantime, I'll get a stack of Hyde Parks when the're 30% off.


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## Duvel

In other words, you will bear it.


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## jchennav

Will these shrink like the older OCBDs? The older OCBDs shrink one size after washing and drying according to the customer comments.


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## Pentheos

Yeah, this is a bad business move for BB. I am not interested in the shirts for $140. I think I am going to vote with my wallet.


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## Concordia

The other question is when will Mercer knuckle under and get MOP buttons? They seem to be the last hold-outs for tradly plastic.

I did try a Michael Spencer shirt, and while there's a lot to like about it (and I think it's from the same factory as Brooks and Ratio), the cuffs are ridiculously huge. I'd much rather dial in the fit with Ratio, or let Mercer do what they do. The biggest barrier with Brooks apart from collar/quality is the length of the body. The original shirts not only look short because they are so wide, but they actually are short-- especially on the sides. If one of the slimmer fits can address that problem while keeping the good collar and old-style oxford, MOP, etc., it could blow all the others out of the water.

I haven't stayed very current with Brooks, but it is my impression that they've been trying to hold down costs by gradually chipping away at quality. Adding all the quality back at once will provide a bit of a price shock, but is not to be unexpected.


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## orange fury

My problem with Mercer is the fit (from what I've heard)- Brooks Milano (15.5/34 in OCBD) fits me perfectly after a wash. I'm tempted to order two yellow OCBDs while they're still around at $79.50, since that's the only color I don't have...


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## Concordia

Mercer offers some useful options if you ask enough questions. You can get a full-size slimmer body (which for you would be 14.5" under a 15.5" collar), and also have it in a long version if that's a problem. Also, since even that is pretty full-cut, they'll taper the waist an additional 2", 4", or 6", not that this will make the chest any trimmer. If you e-mail for chest and waist measurements, you should be able to work something out. Their 2-ply oxfords really are bulletproof.


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## Uncle Bill

Hmm, the last Brooks Brothers OCBD I picked up was in pink. While I like the idea of a better OCBD, $140 USD which translates to over $200 per shirt in Canadian funds if my dollar continues to slide on currency markets. Considering the staples you all hold near and dear are thin to non existent on the ground north of the border and Brooks Brothers is pretty much the only option I got. That said, I'll probably spring for a purple stripe OCBD in the new series when there's a sale.


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## Danny

They still list the same 5 shirts for Traditional fit offerings....oxford in solid and stripe, pinpoint in solid and stripe and end on end. I hope these continue to be made.


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## Anon 18th Cent.

Just when I think this forum is no longer worth it, news like this is posted. Very glad to see the yellow candy striper come back. Happy to pay more for a nicer shirt.

Only problem is that I have become friendly with David Mercer.


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## WillBarrett

Circling back to this - I'd be very interested in some of the stripes, but all things being equal, I'd rather pay north of $100 to buy Gitman Bros from a local store than to pay the same to Claudio del Vecchio.


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## Reuben

WillBarrett said:


> Circling back to this - I'd be very interested in some of the stripes, but all things being equal, I'd rather pay north of $100 to buy Gitman Bros from a local store than to pay the same to Claudio del Vecchio.


Or (just) south of $100 for Ratio . . .


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## sjk

And in another victory for historical fetishism, they appear to have removed the chest pocket from the shirt.

I too am glad to see a yellow uni-stripe, which I think I'll pick up.

But I still like Mercer.


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## Pentheos

So, no pockets, no ecru, no yellow, no red uni stripes, huge increase in price, etc. I can't wait.


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## fred johnson

I will stick with Press, when I need more OCBD's, the last two purchased 2 years ago are still like new.


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## Duvel

How is no chest pocket historical? When did the Brooks ocbd not have a chest pocket?



sjk said:


> And in another victory for historical fetishism, they appear to have removed the chest pocket from the shirt.
> 
> I too am glad to see a yellow uni-stripe, which I think I'll pick up.
> 
> But I still like Mercer.


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## gamma68

Well, isn't this an interesting development.

Remember when BB offered its Gatsby OCBDs with unlined collars? I bought two: one in white and another in ecru. Horn buttons and golf collar on the ecru, plastic buttons and a longer point collar on the white. Side gussets on both. I like 'em.

As I recall, the Gatsby OCBDs didn't sell all that well. Although the supply was limited (and I think only in slim fit, which isn't really _all that _slim), the shirt seemed to remain in the "sale" category of the website for more than a year. I might be wrong, but I don't think they were originally $140, either.

Given these factors, it surprises me that BB is apparently phasing out the current OCBD for the new $140 pocketless OCBD with MOP buttons. I like the purple stripe, but will likely wait for a sale, or for the shirt to join the remaining Gatsby items in the BB virtual discount bin.


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## gamma68

Duvel said:


> How is no chest pocket historical? When did the Brooks ocbd not have a chest pocket?


Read and review: https://putthison.com/post/47706678968/the-ocbd-shirt-series-part-ii-the-golden-era


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## Duvel

Ah, 1949. Prehistorical, in other words. Wow.

Thanks for the link.



gamma68 said:


> Read and review: https://putthison.com/post/47706678968/the-ocbd-shirt-series-part-ii-the-golden-era


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## gamma68

Duvel said:


> Ah, 1949. Prehistorical, in other words. Wow.
> 
> Thanks for the link.


Someone else with more knowledge about the BB OCBD can chime in here, but I believe the chest pocket was introduced either in the late 1950s or early 1960s. So it's not exactly prehistoric. I personally prefer having a chest pocket for holding my glasses, business cards, etc.


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## Duvel

Same here. I _need _the pocket. But yes, no pocket seems prehistoric *to me. *My aesthetics with trad originate more in early to mid-1960s stylings.



gamma68 said:


> Someone else with more knowledge about the BB OCBD can chime in here, but I believe the chest pocket was introduced either in the late 1950s or early 1960s. So it's not exactly prehistoric. I personally prefer having a chest pocket for holding my glasses, business cards, etc.


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## Duvel

It is beginning to sound more and more like a novelty item, but I look forward to further review from adoucett.


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## Danny

I like the BB chest pocket. I find that I am not too fond of the flap pocket on Press shirts though.


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## CSG

O'Connells has been offering a traditional OCBD with longer collar points, unlined and unfused for $145 and their regular OCBD for $125 for some time now. I won't spend anything close to those prices for a shirt these days because, as much as I might miss a 3.5" collar, I won't pay $70-80 more per shirt to get one. I mostly wear my shirts open and 3" is just fine for that. I have a few shirts that are 3.25" that work OK with a tie.

If the BB shirts go on sale in June for $70, I'll try a couple (if they have my size).


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## Roycru

For those who have forgotten (or never knew) what the old Brooks Brothers OCBD shirts looked like, here's one (with a Polo collar, not a Clifford collar) that I got in the late seventies that has been washed several times since I got it. (I don't wear it very often.)

The old shirts tend to shrink a lot, are hard to iron, and I think are very uncomfortable compared to the later non-iron versions.


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## gamma68

Duvel said:


> It is beginning to sound more and more like a novelty item, but I look forward to further review from adoucett.


Less novelty and more niche (Trads). I like the idea of BB sort of attempting to resurrect OCBD features that have slowly disappeared. But don't price gouge us. Find a way to offer this shirt at the same price as the current OCBD. Take away the MOP buttons, if you must. They're nice but not critical for me. Surely those buttons aren't so expensive as to make the price jump so high. They must save some manufacturing dough by taking away the chest pocket.


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## sjk

I thought that the uber-trad BB OCBD, which had the unlined collar as well as a six button placket, gained the chest pocket in about the early 1960s. This was about the time that the three piece suit started to fade from view. A chest pocket would not be accessible if you were wearing a vest and therefore be superfluous. 

I too find the chest pocket useful.

In other words, BB has simply reintroduced the RL OCBD, but without a pony logo.


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## Ensiferous

I used to have a few Polo OCBDs that had no pocket, and they were not my style, at all. The lack of the pocket could be frustrating to me; I wear OCBDs while I get work done. I can't attribute eliminating the pocket to "history" or even fashion, but rather to cost avoidance. Hey BB- don't remove the pocket.

I think BB might do well to consider this shirt as a loss leader, sort of a powerfully symbolic article greatly worthy of conservation as the very likeness of their corporate identity. Am I anti-free market? Certainly not. Am I anti-profit? No way. But they sell enough oddball Chinese stuff at a huge margin to subsidize the bragging rights of keeping all of us cool guys on their customer list, if only to buy their single most iconic item. 

It is rather absurd that this staple is becoming an extravagance. I'm glad that I have a shedload in reserve. And I hope the new, improved (but aspires to be what it used to be) version finally settles into its proper position with nothing valuable taken away, and all of the good elements restored.


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## Duvel

Novelty, niche, marketing. Whatever. It is interesting to hear about Roycru's experience and the small collar measurement.


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## WillBarrett

Reuben said:


> Or (just) south of $100 for Ratio . . .


That's an excellent point - I wish that I could swing this new BB pricing but I can't. And I sort of feel like Tony Sopranos when he said he came in at the end. Maybe it's best - again, nod to the Sopranos - to get in on the ground floor with Ratio or Sid Mashburn or whatever else is out there.


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## FLMike

Ensiferous said:


> It is rather absurd that this staple is becoming an extravagance.


I think this sums it up rather perfectly.


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## Dr. D

Once again Brooks has tried to revisit the successes of their trad history and has instead failed miserably. For every aspect they correct it seems they make an even more egregious change.

Great news on returning to unlined collars and cuffs. But removing the pocket?

The addition of more unistripes is long overdue, and yellow is great. But aqua unistripe is NOT green. And purple unistripe is NOT pink. Those are the classic stripes that should be coming back first. And some blue/white blazer stripe OCBDs. Aqua and purple are far down the line.

One positive is that this is the first time you can get a slim-fit OCBD with the classic features from Brooks. Of course other shirt makers have already courted the slim crowd and provide the requisite features better than Brooks does (I'm looking at you, Kamakura).

I'd love to support Brooks' efforts to revisit their past but $140 is hard to swallow for a product that is still flawed. By charging this much Brooks has put themselves in direct competition with Mercer, Kamakura, Press, O'Connells, and others that seem to understand what makes the original Brooks OCBD special more than the folks running the mothership at 346 Madison.


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## WillBarrett

FLCracka said:


> I think this sums it up rather perfectly.


This.

Is there no one who can make the shirt - even overseas - to some basic specifications with a decent collar? It can't be this hard.


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## gamma68

FLCracka said:


> I think this sums it up rather perfectly.


I couldn't agree more.


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## sjk

Dr. D said:


> The addition of more unistripes is long overdue, and yellow is great. But aqua unistripe is NOT green. And purple unistripe is NOT pink. Those are the classic stripes that should be coming back first. And some blue/white blazer stripe OCBDs. Aqua and purple are far down the line.


Why is yellow uni stripe so rare in the first place? I have never gotten a good answer for this question.

And yes to the blazer stripes.


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## CSG

What are "blazer stripes"?


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## sjk

CSG said:


> What are "blazer stripes"?


From an archived version of Heavy Tweed Jacket's blog, the Internet's foremost Brooks Brothers scholar. Go down about 4 bold face headings.

https://tweed232.rssing.com/chan-6217567/latest.php


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## CSG

Thank you. Good blog!


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## Concordia

Back in the day, the B^2 button-down wasn't priced like handmade Italian, but neither was it cheap. There is a reason that they floated the "346" line for the younger and/or less-affluent set.

Anyway, I see that the slimmer cuts have specs on the linked tables for all sizes, but that their neck sizes stop just below where they'd be useful. Perhaps they will do special order?


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## MythReindeer

Maybe they haven't restocked the older models because they wanted to have a bunch of the new ones ready to sell and the factory was too busy to make both. It's a nice idea, anyway.

Maybe if I wipe my neck with a damp towel whenever I go to the restroom and change as soon as I get home, I can stretch my current shirts to three wearings per wash.

Maybe...


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## Duvel

Thank you! A far more enjoyable read than the PTO link.



sjk said:


> From an archived version of Heavy Tweed Jacket's blog,the Internet's foremost Brooks Brothers scholar. Go down about 4 bold face headings.
> 
> https://tweed232.rssing.com/chan-6217567/latest.php


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## Califax

Interesting. Anyone know what the point size on these collars is? What is meant by the "polo" designation?


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## Orgetorix

Califax said:


> What is meant by the "polo" designation?


Same thing BB always means by "The Original Polo Shirt." It's their name for the button-down collar, which, according to corporate marketing apocrypha, was invented by Henry Sands Brooks after he watched a polo match in England and the players had buttoned their collar points down to stop them flapping about.


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## Califax

Orgetorix said:


> Same thing BB always means by "The Original Polo Shirt." It's their name for the button-down collar, which, according to corporate marketing apocrypha, was invented by Henry Sands Brooks after he watched a polo match in England and the players had buttoned their collar points down to stop them flapping about.


If that's so, then why are some BB _button down_ collars referred to as just "button down" and others as "polo [button down]"? A sales associate told me it had to do with the size of the points. Thus my question.


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## LeeLo

The collar still seems short, there's no chest pocket, and most importantly the price is WAY too high....

Translation - I ain't buying.


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## FLMike

Califax said:


> If that's so, then why are some BB _button down_ collars referred to as just "button down" and others as "polo [button down]"? A sales associate told me it had to do with the size of the points. Thus my question.


All of the button-down shirts on their website have "The Original Polo Shirt" on the label.


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## Califax

FLCracka said:


> All of the button-down shirts on their website have "The Original Polo Shirt" on the label.


Hmmmm...I haven't noticed that. I get all my shirts m-t-m, and (at least last time I was on the 5th floor of the Madison Ave store) they make a distinction between a "button down" and "polo button down" - and I thought I detected a similar distinction with their off the rack.


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## Califax

btw, I'm rather surprised that people like the breast pocket - I get mine made sans the pocket. Do people actually use them? To me it's just a distraction and it's non-functional, so why have it? Then again, I always add a "locker loop" and I rarely use it...just like the way it looks.


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## Duvel

I like the way it looks and I use it. I wear glasses.


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## orange fury

Califax said:


> btw, I'm rather surprised that people like the breast pocket - I get mine made sans the pocket. Do people actually use them? To me it's just a distraction and it's non-functional, so why have it? Then again, I always add a "locker loop" and I rarely use it...just like the way it looks.


On a dress shirt (semi-spread collar, French cuffs, etc), I go sans pocket for a cleaner look. On a more causal shirt (OCBD, patterned sport shirt), I prefer a pocket and will actually use it to carry a pen or sunglasses.


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## FLMike

Califax said:


> btw, I'm rather surprised that people like the breast pocket - I get mine made sans the pocket. Do people actually use them? To me it's just a distraction and it's non-functional, so why have it? Then again, I always add a "locker loop" and I rarely use it...just like the way it looks.


Use it all the time. Breakfast/lunch receipts, pen, glasses. Now a locker loop....that I could use, big time. Since I always forget to leave a spare hanger in my locker at the club.


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## Roycru

Califax said:


> btw, I'm rather surprised that people like the breast pocket - I get mine made sans the pocket. Do people actually use them? To me it's just a distraction and it's non-functional, so why have it? Then again, I always add a "locker loop" and I rarely use it...just like the way it looks.


This might be a silly question, but how do you see the locker loops? I have several Land's End OCBD shirts that came with locker loops, but I can't see the locker loops when using the shirts as directed.

If possible, could you please post a picture showing how you do it? Thank you.


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## FLMike

Roycru said:


> This might be a silly question, but how do you see the locker loops? I have several Land's End OCBD shirts that came with locker loops, but *I can't see the locker loops when using the shirts as directed*.
> 
> If possible, could you *please post a picture showing how you do it*? Thank you.


:laughing:


----------



## CSG

I didn't catch that the new shirts got rid of the breast pocket. One more mistake from BB. They truly have lost their way when they have not been able to continue to properly make the shirt that they were once famous for. They've moved in a different direction and are in the Men's Warehouse/Jos.Banks business now.

I told the VP who called me about the shirts that the pricing was a mistake. A 50ish% price increase and some rather bizarre uni stripe colors would likely not sit well with former customers like me. 

I'm not at all sure I'll continue to do business with them any longer. Not to distract from this thread but the 4 ties I picked up during the post Xmas sale are not at all as well made (mostly, the quality of the silk) as their ties from years past. I got just as good a tie from tie.com for about $20.


----------



## orange fury

CSG said:


> I'm not at all sure I'll continue to do business with them any longer. Not to distract from this thread but the 4 ties I picked up during the post Xmas sale are not at all as well made (mostly, the quality of the silk) as their ties from years past. I got just as good a tie from tie.com for about $20.


I do like Brooks ties, but at a steep discount (i.e., eBay or Marshall's/TJMaxx). I did find their 346-line bow ties to be just as good as their mainline bow ties (I'm not convinced that they're not the same, actually).


----------



## Semper Jeep

I think I have about 20+ BB OCBD shirts in blue and white and a couple pinks as well as the university stripes on the shelf in my closet still in the plastic wrap from the store from purchases made at a steep discount a handful of years back. Maybe I'll soon have to post them up at a premium as "NOS". :great:


----------



## gamma68

orange fury said:


> I did find their 346-line bow ties to be just as good as their mainline bow ties (I'm not convinced that they're not the same, actually).


Agreed. And as a matter of fact, I've got an as-new '346' bow tie on the Thrift Exchange right now! (Shameless plug)


----------



## JLibourel

Well, with the new Brooks offerings having shorter collars and no breast pockets, it seems to me that Mercer OCBDs are still the gold standard, and they cost $15 less than the new Brooks offerings.


----------



## FLMike

Not disputing the above, but it's worth noting that, for AAAC members, the everday price of the new OCBDs will actually be $119 ($140 less 15%). Still far too rich for my blood.


----------



## jchennav

The "old" OCBDs (001E, E482, 132Q, 529Q) are back to the regular price of $95.00.


----------



## Himself

Danny said:


> I like the BB chest pocket. I find that I am not too fond of the flap pocket on Press shirts though.


I'll take either over a logo, horses included.

FWIW I like pockets, but without flaps.


----------



## Himself

JLibourel said:


> Well, with the new Brooks offerings having shorter collars and no breast pockets, it seems to me that Mercer OCBDs are still the gold standard, and they cost $15 less than the new Brooks offerings.


A great value proposition, but I'd have to gain a lot of weight to make that work.


----------



## Califax

Roycru said:


> This might be a silly question, but how do you see the locker loops? I have several Land's End OCBD shirts that came with locker loops, but I can't see the locker loops when using the shirts as directed.
> 
> If possible, could you please post a picture showing how you do it? Thank you.


I've long suspected that I've been wearing these things incorrectly.


----------



## rl1856

Looks like I will finally take the Mercer plunge....

Would love BB to offer the "new" shirt with a traditional very full cut, and in pink uni stripe.

I recall an interview with the head of Luxotica (DelVecio sp?) in which he stated that the made in USA OCBD was sold at a loss, but he felt he had to still offer the shirt. I suppose $140 will be the new price point so they can actually make a profit ?

Once again I will have to go somewhere else to get what BB used to offer.


----------



## Ensiferous

Forgive the tangential vector, but speaking of Mercer, I just received my annual card and swatches from them, which they titled, "The Year of the Oxford."

It has a charcoal uni stripe! 

There is also a purple uni stripe called "heather".

Also are pink pinpoint and turquoise pinpoint.

(Not oxford, but there is also a great looking blue & black tattersall twill.)


----------



## JLibourel

Himself said:


> A great value proposition, but I'd have to gain a lot of weight to make that work.


The perceived "bagginess" of Mercer's regular fit is very overblown. My Mercer shirts are only very slightly wider (an inch) through the body than a dress shirt custom tailored for me by W.W. Chan or LEHP's in my size (17.5x35). The Mercers are narrower than some vintage Ralph Lauren OCBD's in my size.


----------



## Duvel

This pretty much sums it up for me: https://www.ivy-style.com/rolled-ba...trajectory-of-the-brooks-brothers-oxford.html

I know I won't be buying these damned things, not until the price comes down and the pocket goes back on. If I'm going to shell out this kind of coin, I'll make it an O'Connell's or J. Press.


----------



## rmpmcdermott

Duvel said:


> This pretty much sums it up for me: https://www.ivy-style.com/rolled-ba...trajectory-of-the-brooks-brothers-oxford.html
> 
> I know I won't be buying these damned things, not until the price comes down and the pocket goes back on. If I'm going to shell out this kind of coin, I'll make it an O'Connell's or J. Press.


I'm with you on this one, honestly. It's great that BB is getting the OCBD back to some semblance of its past glory, but I still like my Press OCBD's better. I know the collar points don't roll like a Mercer, but they're made in the USA, they fit me well and I have a soft spot for the flap pocket. Good enough for me. Plus they're $30 cheaper than the new Brooks OCBDs.


----------



## katon

Califax said:


> If that's so, then why are some BB _button down_ collars referred to as just "button down" and others as "polo [button down]"? A sales associate told me it had to do with the size of the points. Thus my question.


 Originally there was just the Polo collar, so all button downs could be called Polo collar. However, competitors like Gant had a non-rolling button-down collar with short points; Brooks developed the "Clifford" collar to compete with that, and then it was no longer accurate that all Brooks button-downs were Polo collars.


----------



## Califax

Interesting, thanks Katon.


----------



## universitystripe

I always thought it was too good to be true that we were purchasing Brooks Brothers button downs at the price of $60 each during the semi-annual sales.

Naturally, they noticed the trend and decided to buck it. 

Well, Trad is fun and all, but I'm not playing at $140 a shirt. I'll be the one on the WAYWT forum in the Ralph Lauren button downs.


----------



## MythReindeer

rl1856 said:


> I recall an interview with the head of Luxotica (DelVecio sp?) in which he stated that the made in USA OCBD was sold at a loss, but he felt he had to still offer the shirt. I suppose $140 will be the new price point so they can actually make a profit ?
> 
> Once again I will have to go somewhere else to get what BB used to offer.


I chuckle at the head honcho saying "We lose money on these," and all of us getting angry when the price goes up. Yes, "loss leader" and all that, but it seems silly to not understand why a company might balk at it. "Business" is hallowed right up until it requires a few more dollars from MY pocket.


----------



## MythReindeer

JLibourel said:


> The perceived "bagginess" of Mercer's regular fit is very overblown. My Mercer shirts are only very slightly wider (an inch) through the body than a dress shirt custom tailored for me by W.W. Chan or LEHP's in my size (17.5x35). The Mercers are narrower than some vintage Ralph Lauren OCBD's in my size.


If one wanted to get into the weeds on this, Put This On actually measured quite a few OCBDs: https://putthison.com/tagged/The-Oxford-Cloth-Button-Down-Shirt-Series

The Mercer model's chest circumference is 2.5 inches larger than its nearest competitor, the Brooks Brothers traditional fit in the same size. I wear a 15-ish and a nigh 50-inch chest on a shirt seems preposterous to me. It may not seem so to others, but bagginess is relative. I seem to remember Mercer touting the bagginess of their shirts but it isn't on their site today. Maybe it was a hallucination of mine.


----------



## Danny

Yes Mercer always said baggy was more comfortable, which I tend to agree with.

$95 may have been a loss leader for BB, but it sure was a great item. I have enough BB OCBD's to last me for a few years so I am not fretting so much, but eventually...I might...


----------



## Ensiferous

MythReindeer said:


> I seem to remember Mercer touting the bagginess of their shirts but it isn't on their site today. Maybe it was a hallucination of mine.


No hallucination. "Baggier is Better" was their slogan.

Last time I bought from Mercer, I had to engage in a complex discussion to get a fit like a 132Q. That style was not inherent to Mercer, and the shirt was nice but not as easy as just buying a BB.

I just prefer the Ivy boom years tapered/slimmer shirt fit. Not tight, but no unnecessary bagginess at the waist. The 1980s big baggy thing never worked for me, even when adopted into the prep/trad style.


----------



## JLibourel

MythReindeer said:


> If one wanted to get into the weeds on this, Put This On actually measured quite a few OCBDs: https://putthison.com/tagged/The-Oxford-Cloth-Button-Down-Shirt-Series
> 
> The Mercer model's chest circumference is 2.5 inches larger than its nearest competitor, the Brooks Brothers traditional fit in the same size. I wear a 15-ish and a nigh 50-inch chest on a shirt seems preposterous to me. It may not seem so to others, but bagginess is relative. I seem to remember Mercer touting the bagginess of their shirts but it isn't on their site today. Maybe it was a hallucination of mine.


As others have mentioned, Mercer definitely did so. I wonder if in hindsight David considers that an unwise tactic.

The size comparisons are interesting. As I think I mentioned, the chest on my Mercer 17.5x35s is 27", on the LEHP it is 26", not much difference there that I can see. Yet that review shows the Mercer as being about 4" wider than the LEHP tailored fit.


----------



## MythReindeer

JLibourel said:


> As others have mentioned, Mercer definitely did so. I wonder if in hindsight David considers that an unwise tactic.
> 
> The size comparisons are interesting. As I think I mentioned, the chest on my Mercer 17.5x35s is 27", on the LEHP it is 26", not much difference there that I can see. Yet that review shows the Mercer as being about 4" wider than the LEHP tailored fit.


In fairness, those measurements were taken almost three years ago. Fits change, just like collars and pockets. I know that Land's End has revised their fit somewhat since then, otherwise I might have a few more of their tailored fit OCBDs. In fact, if I ever decide to roll the MTM dice, that LE shirt will be the basis for the measurements I use. It's trim but not at all too slim.


----------



## fred johnson

I am extremely lucky in that back in the late 70's early 80's I discovered that a fabric shop in New Haven was selling NWT Brooks unlined collar OCBD's for $10 and stocked up on blue ones and one white. I am still wearing those shirts today, 35+ years later supplemented with thrifted green, pink and peach of similar vintage. Unlined collar Brooks OCBD's turn up fairly frequently at one of the thrifts I go to so they are not a problem for me, I just wait out my size. For uni stripes I go to Press. Given all this there is no way I am paying $140 for shirts not a good as those I'm still wearing which cost only $10.


----------



## sarakali

What are people's thoughts on the lavender and lavender-stripe shirts? People on this forum have generally eschewed purple as not a trad color, but do lavender OCBDs have a historical precedent?


----------



## fred johnson

Ensiferous;
I just prefer the Ivy boom years tapered/slimmer shirt fit. Not tight said:


> That is exactly how my Press shirts fit, although the cuff is a little snug for a NATO watch band.


----------



## orange fury

universitystripe said:


> Well, Trad is fun and all, but I'm not playing at $140 a shirt. I'll be the one on the WAYWT forum in the Ralph Lauren button downs.


I have enough BB OCBDs to last me a good while (actually, I probably have enough shirts to last me a lifetime), but I'm with you on this- PRL were my first OCBDs, and though I prefer the pocket, the pony never bothered me like it did others.



MythReindeer said:


> If one wanted to get into the weeds on this, Put This On actually measured quite a few OCBDs: https://putthison.com/tagged/The-Oxford-Cloth-Button-Down-Shirt-Series
> 
> The Mercer model's chest circumference is 2.5 inches larger than its nearest competitor, the Brooks Brothers traditional fit in the same size. I wear a 15-ish and a nigh 50-inch chest on a shirt seems preposterous to me. It may not seem so to others, but bagginess is relative. I seem to remember Mercer touting the bagginess of their shirts but it isn't on their site today. Maybe it was a hallucination of mine.


Have a 15" neck and 38" chest, which means a 15.5/34 in Extra Slim Fit (Milano now) fits me like it was bespoke- I've had shirts matched to the dimensions (there's a small amount of fabric to do a military tuck with, so it's not like spandex). From the estimates I've seen on mercer dimensions, significant alterations would need to be done to make one work for me. But then, I'm probably not their target market- "baggier is better" is the exact opposite of what I like (and looks fairly ridiculous on me)

Dammit Brooks, why'd you have to go and screw this up?


----------



## Hayek

Looks comparable in features, quality, and price to Michael Spencer and Mercer. With discounts you should have no problem getting it for $100 or a bit more. This is a good move and the pearl clutching here is extraordinary; I swear, sometimes I think that there is nothing BB and Press can do that will not piss off a bunch of people here.


----------



## gamma68

Hayek said:


> Looks comparable in features, quality, and price to Michael Spencer and Mercer. With discounts you should have no problem getting it for $100 or a bit more. This is a good move and the pearl clutching here is extraordinary; I swear, sometimes I think that there is nothing BB and Press can do that will not piss off a bunch of people here.


When I last purchased an OCBD from BB (Oct. 2015), I paid $66.50 (sale price), down from the list price of $95.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to pay 40 bucks more for the pleasure of fastening pearl buttons on a pocketless OCBD in aqua university stripe, softer collar or not.


----------



## Duvel

About the whole thing, as my kids used to say in the early 1990s... "Interesting. NOT!"


----------



## sjk

First Review

So I bought a yellow uni-stripe which just arrived. (Used AAAC corp discount.) I had wanted this color/ stripe for some time and didn't see anyone else offering this anytime soon, so I took the bait. 

The collar and cuffs are unlined, as billed. Should be comfortable.

Nice roll to collar, comparable to Mercer.

No pocket, which I can live with. (I actually would prefer a pocket, but I also like the V-shaped stitch on the pocket, as opposed to the straight across that BB does on its striped shirts. I know, we are in real shirt nerd territory here.)

MOP buttons and side gussets? Meh.

Worth the extra $45? I'd rather give Mercer the business. The softly lined 132Q was clearly a better deal for a workhorse staple piece of clothing.

But maybe BB will do different colors/stripings in the future to preserve its niche.


----------



## Ensiferous

Thanks sjk.

I'll ask what many are wondering:

Collar point measurement vs. 132Q?

and..

Pics?


----------



## HerrDavid

Ensiferous said:


> Collar point measurement vs. 132Q?


This!


----------



## sjk

Collar points out of the box (unwashed) measure 3 5/16".


----------



## CSG

So that's what they had on their previous version of this shirt. Still a little short IMO. They should have lengthened them to around 3.5".


----------



## Duvel

This all feels so familiar:


----------



## Ensiferous

CSG said:


> So that's what they had on their previous version of this shirt. Still a little short IMO. They should have lengthened them to around 3.5".


It does look that way, and yes, that is what we were hoping they would do here.

If this turns out that BB thought: "Remove the pocket, remove the collar lining, use the same patterns for the collars, and boost the price" there will be some disappointment.


----------



## Reuben

Ensiferous said:


> It does look that way, and yes, that is what we were hoping they would do here.
> 
> If this turns out that BB thought: "Remove the pocket, remove the collar lining, use the same patterns for the collars, and boost the price" there will be some disappointment.


Don't forget the new buttons, though I think I'd almost prefer plastic.


----------



## Ensiferous

Reuben said:


> Don't forget the new buttons, though I think I'd almost prefer plastic.


Thanks Reuben, I did forget about them. Probably because the MOP is not a huge issue for me either way, and I don't dry clean my OCBDs.

It's been a while since I had a cracked shirt button. Nostalgia?


----------



## Reuben

Ensiferous said:


> Thanks Reuben, I did forget about them. Probably because the MOP is not a huge issue for me either way, and I don't dry clean my OCBDs.
> 
> It's been a while since I had a cracked shirt button. Nostalgia?


\

No, don't have a washer/dryer in my apartment and send everything to a commercial wash-n-fold. They manage to chip buttons semi-regularly.


----------



## Ensiferous

^Then yep, resin is the best way to go in your case, for now.


----------



## orange fury

Hayek said:


> Looks comparable in features, quality, and price to Michael Spencer and Mercer. With discounts you should have no problem getting it for $100 or a bit more. This is a good move and the pearl clutching here is extraordinary; I swear, sometimes I think that there is nothing BB and Press can do that will not piss off a bunch of people here.


I averaged $50-$60/shirt on the old Brooks OCBDs and got a shirt that fit perfectly with a pocket - so no, unlined collars/cuffs and losing the pocket is not worth the price increase at all for me.



Reuben said:


> Don't forget the new buttons, though I think I'd almost prefer plastic.


I prefer MOP on all my dress shirts (as well as some of my nicer polos), but MOP just feels wrong to me on an OCBD


----------



## Conservative87

When did Brooks' OCBDs begin having pockets? A recent article written about the recent retooling of these shirts by BB said that the year was 1968, a bit past the heyday of trad.


----------



## blue suede shoes

sjk said:


> From an archived version of Heavy Tweed Jacket's blog, the Internet's foremost Brooks Brothers scholar. Go down about 4 bold face headings.
> 
> https://tweed232.rssing.com/chan-6217567/latest.php


That is a great resource. Thanks for the link.


----------



## FLMike

Conservative87 said:


> When did Brooks' OCBDs begin having pockets? A recent article written about the recent retooling of these shirts by BB said that the year was 1968, a bit past the heyday of trad.


Actually, BB cited that date themselves, in the following release.....

_FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

(RE)INTRODUCING THE ICONIC BROOKS BROTHERS
ORIGINAL POLO® BUTTON-DOWN OXFORD SHIRT

(New York, NY - January 12, 2016) - Brooks Brothers, America's longest established retailer, announces an update of their iconic Original Polo® Button-Down Oxford shirt, which started a revolution in menswear upon its introduction 120 years ago.

The shirt style was first introduced in 1896 when the grandson of the Brooks Brothers founder, John E. Brooks, attended a polo match in England and noticed that the polo players' collars were pinned down so as to prevent their flapping in the wind. John brought his discovery back to Brooks Brothers, and thus the Button-Down shirt was born, a Brooks classic which some have called "the most imitated item in fashion history."

Keeping true to the quality and craftsmanship, as well as Brooks Brothers tradition of innovation, this classic shirt returns with some details from its ancestors and with additional refinements. Most notably, the trademarked collar was adjusted by removing the interlining for a softer, natural shape and a rolled collar effect returning to the original design of the shirt. Adjustments were also made to the placket and cuffs, which have been also been softened for added comfort. Further elevating the shirt is the reintroduction of the mother-of-pearl buttons accenting the cuff, collar and placket. Side gussets as well as a longer swoop of the shirttail were added to help prevent the shirt from becoming accidentally untucked. Most noticeably, the front shirt pocket, which has been a feature of the shirt since 1968, has been removed to more closely mirror the style of earlier versions.

The updated Original Polo® Button-Down Oxford shirt is made in the USA at the Brooks Brothers shirt factory in Garland, North Carolina from pure American Supima® cotton.

The Original Polo® Button-Down is now offered in three fits: Madison, Regent and Milano; and four colors in candy stripes and solids including white, pink, blue and purple.

Customers may purchase the Brooks Brothers Original Polo® Button-Down Oxford for $140 at Brooks Brothers retail stores worldwide, online at brooksbrothers.com or by calling 800.274.1815._


----------



## Brooksfan

Sounds like the IT world where every product flaw you point out is characterized as a "feature" by the seller. I tried to replenish my stand-by 001E white OCBDs and was told they are being discontinued. The press release confirms what I was told, in that the "Traditional" fit is not mentioned. I confirmed it is being discontinued. This is not a good thing. Replacing a $95 rock-solid item with a heritage/brave new world hybrid makes me wonder if Joe Gromek has been rehired. I'll wait and see how this plays out over the next year but I think this might pass as quickly as "Own Make" and a few other initiatives came and went over the past few years. IT WASN'T BROKEN AND IT DIDN'T NEED TO BE FIXED!!!!!


----------



## FLMike

Companies like Brooks Brothers count on their customers having short memories. All of the talk here has been about the OCBD price going from $95 to $140, but it wasn't more than a few years ago when it sold for $79.50. I can't imagine the production cost has increased that much over the same period.


----------



## Danny

Really, we have confirmation that Traditional fit is being discontinued? This is an 'ugh' all around, 001E was just about the closest thing to a perfect item we had. I know some folks had sizing issues and disliked the collar lining, but I really like/liked those shirts. I wear them almost every day.


----------



## CSG

On the Traditional fit being discontinued, I was told the same thing by a couple phone sales people back in October or November. The Madison fit will be their roomiest fit now. Frankly, for my 6' 180# frame, the Traditional fit was a tent, the Madison was OK, but the Regent fits me much better and is still plenty roomy.


----------



## Taliesin

Lots of complaints and little enthusiasm here and over at Ivy Style. If BB reads these blogs, they will probably think "why bother?" and just discontinue the shirts. The stylistic changes should appeal to those who have been lamenting the lined collar for years. Pocket/no pocket is something on which opinions differ. The price issue, however, seems to boil down to this - BB's OCBD prices have been artificially low for years. It's already known that BB was losing money on the shirts. Their OCBD prices were lower than anyone else's for a made-in-USA shirt, and the new $140 price (when not on sale) is still lower than what they charge for their regular line of made-in-USA dress shirts (see, e.g., their made-in-USA point collar shirts, which retail for $185). The new OCBD price is consistent with pricing from other retailers discussed in this forum for made-in-USA OCBDs, as follows:

J Press 110
Andover	135
BB	140
O'C	145
CCC	158
BSilver 195

I would expect to see Press raise their price soon too, especially since their OCBDs are apparently made in BB's Garland, N.C. factory.

Bottom line: BB has been subsidizing OCBDs for years, a pricing strategy that benefitted those who prefer the style. They aren't doing that any more, so we have to pay market prices now. Not fun, but the former situation wasn't sustainable forever.


----------



## CSG

This situation is soooo ripe for a competitor to own the OCBD market with a reasonable price point. I don't see the value of $100+ OTR OCBD shirts. That's OK, I don't *need* to continue to wear them if this is where the market is headed. I suspect many of this rapidly shrinking group will follow suite. If these new BB shirts go on sale in the $70-80 range, they might survive. But with other companies making better OCBD shirts than BB for less money, I think BB has made a mistake with the pricing of these shirts. Just my opinion.


----------



## Taliesin

CSG said:


> But with other companies making better OCBD shirts than BB for less money, I think BB has made a mistake with the pricing of these shirts. Just my opinion.


Who is producing a better ready-to-wear, made-in-USA OCBD than BB for less money? In the universe of Ivy retailers, only J. Press has a lower price point, and their shirts get mixed reviews, i.e., they are not obviously 'better'.

I left Mercer out of the list above. Their RTW OCBDs are $125 each, which is less than BB's new retail price but more than what any AAAC member with 100 posts would pay by using the always-available 15% corporate discount. When that's factored in, the standing retail price for the new BB OCBD is really $119, a price that's available year-round unless a better sale comes along.

It's possible to switch to offshored brands like Lands' End and get an OCBD for $50 or so. But that's not an apples-to-apples comparison. My list above compares made-in-USA OCBDs, and in that universe, BB's shirts, even at $140, are competitively priced and good quality.


----------



## Duvel

IF I'm going to spend that much money, I would go with O'Connell's over Brooks: https://www.oconnellsclothing.com/O-C-Unlined-and-Unfused-Oxford-Cloth-Button-Down-Shirt-Blue.html


----------



## oxford cloth button down

Why don't they just offer a solid must-iron OCBD option that is not made in America? Why is that such a challenge? It is not a ethical or moral dilemma...or even quality. They produce the majority of their products outside of America. End of rant. 

I feel my must-iron will being slowly broken. And while I can (barely) afford to buy $100 shirts my biggest frustration is that it puts trad style out of reach for the young.


----------



## oxford cloth button down

Taliesin said:


> It's possible to switch to offshored brands like Lands' End and get an OCBD for $50 or so. But that's not an apples-to-apples comparison. My list above compares made-in-USA OCBDs, and in that universe, BB's shirts, even at $140, are competitively priced and good quality.


Where at? I am in the market. I can't find one that has decent collar points and is not no-iron. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Duvel

Good point, ocbd, and not just beyond the reach of the young but of anyone who simply wishes to be frugal.



oxford cloth button down said:


> Why don't they just offer a solid must-iron OCBD option that is not made in America? Why is that such a challenge? It is not a ethical or moral dilemma...or even quality. They produce the majority of their products outside of America. End of rant.
> 
> I feel my must-iron will being slowly broken. And while I can (barely) afford to buy $100 shirts my biggest frustration is that it puts trad style out of reach for the young.


----------



## Fading Fast

oxford cloth button down said:


> Why don't they just offer a solid must-iron OCBD option that is not made in America? Why is that such a challenge? It is not a ethical or moral dilemma...or even quality. They produce the majority of their products outside of America. End of rant.
> 
> I feel my must-iron will being slowly broken. And while I can (barely) afford to buy $100 shirts my biggest frustration is that it puts trad style out of reach for the young.


Agreed. Have this MOP, Made in America, luxury OCBD available for those who want it, but also bang out a more reasonably priced one overseas with plastic buttons.


----------



## sjk

Taliesin said:


> Who is producing a better ready-to-wear, made-in-USA OCBD than BB for less money? In the universe of Ivy retailers, only J. Press has a lower price point, and their shirts get mixed reviews, i.e., they are not obviously 'better'.


Is it time to bring Ratio back into the discussion?

They charge < $100 for a solid or uni-stripe OCBD.

They will do an unlined collar with longer points if you ask.

They apparently use the Garland factory.

Quality may be up in the air. I had some issues with some sewing issues in the past related to uneven stitching evident on a checked pattern for which they threw up their hands and said "That's the best we can do." This issue would not likely be present with a solid fabric shirt.

They may be an option if you are price sensitive.


----------



## Taliesin

Fading Fast said:


> Agreed. Have this MOP, Made in America, luxury OCBD available for those who want it, but also bang out a more reasonably priced one overseas with plastic buttons.


They do this with the pinpoint buttondown(PBD), which goes for $69.50.

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/Regent-Fit-Button-Down-Collar-Dress-Shirt/469Q,default,pd.html


----------



## Taliesin

oxford cloth button down said:


> Where at? I am in the market. I can't find one that has decent collar points and is not no-iron. Thanks for the help!


You can get an OCBD at Lands' End for $50. Will it have "decent" collar points? I don't know. The tone in this thread seems to be price uber alles, so that's why I pointed out the existence of this option - it's available to the "no way I'm paying triple digits for a shirt" crowd. However, this is not really the path of the connoisseur, and once you start to value details, options shrink and prices increase.


----------



## Reuben

Taliesin said:


> You can get an OCBD at Lands' End for $50. Will it have "decent" collar points? I don't know. The tone in this thread seems to be price uber alles, so that's why I pointed out the existence of this option - it's available to the "no way I'm paying triple digits for a shirt" crowd. However, this is not really the path of the connoisseur, and once you start to value details, options shrink and prices increase.


I'd go with the LL Bean over LE for an imported non-iron OCBD. They're a bit cheaper, the collars seem a bit heftier, and there are fewer but better options. I just bought two of them, one green striped and one pink striped. They just listed an interesting red/blue stripe and blue/yellow stripe that I'll have to take a closer look at eventually.


----------



## Duvel

I don't have any Bean ocbds but I have looked at them in the Freeport store and they seem very good, especially for the price. That might be a nice option.


----------



## August West

Duvel said:


> IF I'm going to spend that much money, I would go with O'Connell's over Brooks: https://www.oconnellsclothing.com/O-C-Unlined-and-Unfused-Oxford-Cloth-Button-Down-Shirt-Blue.html


I have one of these OC shirts and while I do really like it, it isn't the same heavy bullet proof material of a BB OCBD.. In fact, due to the care instructions, I'm hesitant to commercially launder it. I know this isn't an issue for a lot of guys here that do their own laundry, but I'm not one of those guys.


----------



## Duvel

Neither am I.

If I had endless means, I'd love to do a comparison test right now. Buy OC, Bean, Lands' End, Brooks, Press, and other contenders, wear and launder them for a month or two, and report results.



August West said:


> I have one of these OC shirts and while I do really like it, it isn't the same heavy bullet proof material of a BB OCBD.. In fact, due to the care instructions, I'm hesitant to commercially launder it. I know this isn't an issue for a lot of guys here that do their own laundry, but I'm not one of those guys.


----------



## MythReindeer

A Lean Garments shirt will set one back around $50, if you get one before the limited run sells out. The one I have has an unlined collar with longer points.

You have to check the current size chart to see if it works for you--they seem to tweak the fit pretty often. I have one of the originals and the new cuts are rather slimmer. That's probably good for some and not good for others; the new cut is too narrow in the chest for me. Getting enough for a work week rotation would be difficult, though.


----------



## Tahmasp

Taliesin said:


> Lots of complaints and little enthusiasm here and over at Ivy Style. If BB reads these blogs, they will probably think "why bother?" and just discontinue the shirts. The stylistic changes should appeal to those who have been lamenting the lined collar for years. Pocket/no pocket is something on which opinions differ. The price issue, however, seems to boil down to this - BB's OCBD prices have been artificially low for years. It's already known that BB was losing money on the shirts. Their OCBD prices were lower than anyone else's for a made-in-USA shirt, and the new $140 price (when not on sale) is still lower than what they charge for their regular line of made-in-USA dress shirts (see, e.g., their made-in-USA point collar shirts, which retail for $185). The new OCBD price is consistent with pricing from other retailers discussed in this forum for made-in-USA OCBDs, as follows:
> 
> J Press 110
> Andover 135
> BB 140
> O'C 145
> CCC 158
> BSilver 195
> 
> I would expect to see Press raise their price soon too, especially since their OCBDs are apparently made in BB's Garland, N.C. factory.
> 
> Bottom line: BB has been subsidizing OCBDs for years, a pricing strategy that benefitted those who prefer the style. They aren't doing that any more, so we have to pay market prices now. Not fun, but the former situation wasn't sustainable forever.


The voice of reason. In Tradsville, news that a company is offshoring production to Asia generates scorn. But likewise, news that a company is keeping production in the US but raising prices generates the same scorn. One can't have it both ways.

Brooks lost money on every MIUSA OCBD they sold in order to keep stocking an iconic item and cater to the (very small) market that still cared about it. Now they've unarguably made the product better, but decided to charge the market rate and align the price with literally everyone else who offers the product. I completely agree with Taliesin that if I were Brooks observing the blogs' reaction to this move, I'd conclude "why bother trying to please these people?"

A lot of the angst here comes from the conviction that a decent oxford shouldn't be a luxury item. Gents, these days a made-in-the-USA garment is absolutely a luxury item, and the pain you're feeling comes from losing a subsidy, not a right.

Kamakura's made-in-Asia oxfords come with all the trad details for $79, which is only slightly more than the sale price of the old BB oxford. Below that price point there isn't a discernible market for total trad authenticity and you'll have to sacrifice either must-iron (LL Bean) or collar points (LE). The landscape isn't ideal, but it's not exactly like no options remain.


----------



## Brigadier Cheape

Tahmasp said:


> Gents, these days a made-in-the-USA garment is absolutely a luxury item. .


This is the sad reality. I agree the market is ripe for a competitor, but I don't see a major retailer taking up the cause. There's potential for a low overhead garage type operation that relies on social media for advertising like you've seen in some of the bespoke suit and sneaker business in NYC.


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## CSG

LE could do it with their Hyde Park shirts. A little tweak to the collar is about all they'd need to do. These retail around $50 but are often on sale in the mid $30 price range. They are very nice, solidly made shirts but with a too short collar (3"). They are great without a tie.

Frankly, Made in USA no longer means much when it comes to garments, especially BB shirts. I bought four non-iron shirts of theirs after Xmas for $46 each. These were the Malaysian made BrooksCool and pinpoint oxford shirts. All were better constructed than the Made in USA ocbd shirt I'd bought and returned the previous month. Also, they have a decent collar length ( 3.25" by my measure), though with a fused lining, they have little traditional collar roll.


----------



## gamma68

Tahmasp said:


> Gents, these days a made-in-the-USA garment is absolutely a luxury item...


Why is that? I have ideas about why this is so, but wonder what the rest of the community thinks.


----------



## Duvel

Good points. I really like my own BB overseas-made non-irons. I think for some the concern with garments made outside the USA is with possible unethical labor conditions, but frankly, that is such a complex issue these days that is difficult to know if you're "doing the right thing" even when you buy things made in this country.



CSG said:


> LE could do it with their Hyde Park shirts. A little tweak to the collar is about all they'd need to do. These retail around $50 but are often on sale in the mid $30 price range. They are very nice, solidly made shirts but with a too short collar (3"). They are great without a tie.
> 
> Frankly, Made in USA no longer means much when it comes to garments, especially BB shirts. I bought four non-iron shirts of theirs after Xmas for $46 each. These were the Malaysian made BrooksCool and pinpoint oxford shirts. All were better constructed than the Made in USA ocbd shirt I'd bought and returned the previous month. And they have a decent collar length though with a fused lining, they have little traditional collar roll.


----------



## Charles Dana

Tahmasp said:


> . Brooks lost money on every MIUSA OCBD they sold in order to keep stocking an iconic item and cater to the (very small) market that still cared about it. Now they've unarguably made the product better, but decided to charge the market rate and align the price with literally everyone else who offers the product....Gents, ...the pain you're feeling comes from losing a subsidy, not a right.


Superbly expressed.


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## HerrDavid

One thing I hadn't noticed before (but perhaps I missed it in this thread): this new oxford doesn't seem to be available in red uni-/candy stripe. Unfortunate, as its a real favorite of mine.


----------



## Califax

Tahmasp said:


> The voice of reason. In Tradsville, news that a company is offshoring production to Asia generates scorn. But likewise, news that a company is keeping production in the US but raising prices generates the same scorn. One can't have it both ways.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> A lot of the angst here comes from the conviction that a decent oxford shouldn't be a luxury item. Gents, these days a made-in-the-USA garment is absolutely a luxury item, and the pain you're feeling comes from losing a subsidy, not a right.


Very well said indeed, sir.


----------



## CSG

Anyone receive one of these reconfigured OCBDs? Got measurements, comments, etc.? Just $119 with your corp. discount of 15%.


----------



## JLibourel

In comparing the prices of OCBD's, the figure of $50 has been given for the Lands' End Hyde Park. Aside from the fact that it's actually $49, let's bear in mind that Lands' End has 30% off sales with great frequency, which would give us a realistic retail of $34.30 before shipping, sales tax and whatnot. I haven't bought an LEHP for some years, so I cannot comment on their current quality. However, the ones I have are perfectly decent shirts. Yeah, I prefer my Mercers (just ordered another yesterday from David), but I haven't thrown my half-dozen LEHPs in the Goodwill bin either. As a value proposition, they seem hard to beat.


----------



## LawyerBoy

I have a new one. I love it. The unlined collar, cuffs, and placket are great, and the shirt is considerably longer than its predecessor. It takes starch well and wears like a champ.

Of course, I've only had it for a week now, so I don't know what to forecast as far as long-term wear is concerned. I know I like it and I'll buy some more before all is said and done. I wish the red university stripe was still available, and I'm not wild about the purple or the price, but I do know they'll go on sale. That's something that can't be said for Mercer and its $18 shipping fee.


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## cumberlandpeal

I have more shirts than Jay Gatsby and am always buying more. Sickness. Failed to buy OCBDs in the last sale and suddenly find these $140 versions in every hipster size but not in traditional. I will probably buy one to test it out but am likely to tack back towards J Press.

I love the traditional, baggy, fit OCBDs. I can wear the so-called slim fit shirts but they are not trad. They are simply all wrong with a sack suit, absolutely incorrect. Wrong. Incorrect.


----------



## Fading Fast

When some combination of sale, discount, "special event" brings it down to where it costs me less than a hundred bucks, I'm going to give it a shot. A purely arbitrary number - yup, don't care - not going over it for an OCBD.


----------



## gamma68

cumberlandpeal said:


> I can wear the so-called slim fit shirts but they are not trad. They are simply all wrong with a sack suit, absolutely incorrect. Wrong. Incorrect.


Another personal opinion stated as if it were fact.

I wear the BB slim fit OCBD and it's certainly not skin tight or "fashion forward" in the least. There is plenty of bagginess for me. Today's traditional fit looks ridiculously large on my body frame.

I still contend that today's BB traditional fit OCBD is larger than the traditional fit of old. Men are fatter today than they were in the 1960s. And if we went back in time to any Ivy League campus circa 1965, I doubt absolutely everyone sported the "tent" look.


----------



## FLMike

Don't forget, the new BB OCBD is also oferred in the regular, "Madison" fit, which is cut pretty darn generously. I think he was just trying to get a rise.


----------



## Reuben

FLCracka said:


> Don't forget, the new BB OCBD is also oferred in the regular, "Madison" fit, which is cut pretty darn generously. I think he was just trying to get a rise.


I thought everyone here wanted to get a good rise?


----------



## Fading Fast

gamma68 said:


> Another personal opinion stated as if it were fact.
> 
> I wear the BB slim fit OCBD and it's certainly not skin tight or "fashion forward" in the least. There is plenty of bagginess for me. Today's traditional fit looks ridiculously large on my body frame.
> 
> I still contend that today's BB traditional fit OCBD is larger than the traditional fit of old. Men are fatter today than they were in the 1960s. And if we went back in time to any Ivy League campus circa 1965, I doubt absolutely everyone sported the "tent" look.


I'm 6'1" and 150lbs, back in the '80s, I basically couldn't buy a BB OCBD as it looked like I was wearing a tent with a collar and cuffs. It does seem like the '80s into the '90s was a "big" shirt / loose fit era, which was brutal for me as normal cut clothes fit loose on me.

There is plenty of historical picture evidence to show that not all OCBDs were worn loosely (can't be specific to BB). While most / all were not as tight as today's super skinny, there are plenty of "normal" fit OCBD pictures around from the day.

I bought my last BB OCBD in Regent fit and it fits very similar to Paul Newman's OCBDs in the '60s (the only similarity between Newman and me): not tight or super skinny, definitely some looseness and extra material, but not tent like or any big billows of material.

I'm hoping the outcome of the super skinny craze is that even once it is over, we end up with a few "fits" for most items so that people with smaller or larger frames don't have to abide by whatever the fit-standard is of the moment. Right now, I love that most stores have two or more fits for each size - for the first time in my life, most of my clothes don't hang loose on me.


----------



## Orgetorix

Someone did a comparison of BB traditional-fit OCBDs from different eras and showed they've gotten much bigger over the years. Today's Traditional Fit is not the same as the way the OCBD fit in the 50s and 60s. It's significantly bigger and baggier.


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## Ensiferous

cumberlandpeal said:


> I can wear the so-called slim fit shirts but they are not trad. They are simply all wrong with a sack suit, absolutely incorrect. Wrong. Incorrect.


Not this again...

And I disagree.

At the very least, tapered/slim shirts were a very popular boom years TNSIL option.

The 1980s/1990s baggy fashion trend did creep deeply into even otherwise traditional styles, and I believe it to be mostly contrary to the heyday silhouette that was carried by American scholar-athletes, former military men, and young and mature fit businessmen.

But if a man wants a fuller shirt, even baggy, that's fine. But it is simply not a requirement of the style.


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## Duvel

"Our slim-fit shirts are for the man who prefers a cut less full than our regular model..."

I think this speaks to Ensiferous's point as well as to the idea that a range of fits has existed and can exist in the tradition. In other words, the slim-fit would not be named so if its counterpart did not also exist.

This tired subject always gets everyone riled up, for some reason. It's about preference. I'm of slim build but I really enjoy the full "tent" look because it feels elegantly comfortable. Simply, I love the room. And speaking of room, there is room for everyone's preference. It's all good!


----------



## orange fury

Duvel said:


> "Our slim-fit shirts are for the man who prefers a cut less full than our regular model..."
> 
> I think this speaks to Ensiferous's point as well as to the idea that a range of fits has existed and can exist in the tradition. In other words, the slim-fit would not be named so if its counterpart did not also exist.
> 
> *This tired subject always gets everyone riled up, for some reason.* It's about preference. I'm of slim build but I really enjoy the full "tent" look because it feels elegantly comfortable. Simply, I love the room. And speaking of room, there is room for everyone's preference. It's all good!


I think it's because people tend to post their preference as gospel.

im in full agreement with you on preference- just as you're more comfortable in fuller-cut clothes, the "tent look" makes me incredibly uncomfortable and self-conscious. I've always preferred tailored, slim fit clothing from both an aesthetic and comfort perspective, and the great thing is that neither of us is wrong. Like FLC said earlier, I think the initial comment was posted to get a rise out of everyone (which clearly succeeded)


----------



## cumberlandpeal

I am 70 years old and began wearing BB shirts when I was 15. I can assure you there were no "slim fit" shirts in those olden days and did not arrive on the "trad" scene until ten or fifteen years ago. Men are indeed fatter today than they were in those days but the traditional fit shirts have not gotten larger to accommodate that. Trust me on this, the shirts of the sixties and seventies were larger, fuller on the body.
And, yes, in 1965 everyone "sported" the tent look if that is what you call a traditional fit OCBD on the "trad" forum.


----------



## oxford cloth button down

Here is my take. 

I think that seeing so many men in ill-fitting slim shirts leads many to dislike the term slim fit as they associate it with this look. I am one of these people so I often have to remind myself that many people can wear slim fit shirts and look great in them. A lot of this has to do with neck size, chest size, etc.

I for one cannot wear a slim fit shirt in my neck size, because my neck size is small, but I am muscular. It ends up being to tight in the shoulder/chest area. I can never move my arms. 

What I stated above also holds true for the traditional fit. Some people look great and others look like a man lost in a sea of fabric. 

The moral of the story is that there are a variety of body types and we need a variety of fits to cover them.


----------



## cumberlandpeal

Looking at BB's website and the specific page showcasing this reprise of their "classic" OCBD I am impressed with how ridiculous the models look. The shirts appear to be a size or two too small and I am certain they will never button those collars. So it appears they have raised the price, upgraded a feature or two, but are still aiming for a younger, dare I say hipper, buyer. And why are all their sleeves rolled up? And why do they not show the shirts with ties?


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## HerrDavid

oxford cloth button down said:


> I for one cannot wear a slim fit shirt in my neck size, because my neck size is small, but I am muscular. It ends up being to tight in the shoulder/chest area. I can never move my arms.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The moral of the story is that there are a variety of body types and we need a variety of fits to cover them.


This can't be emphasized enough! Although I am fairly slim, my shoulders and chest are proportionally large relative to my 14.5 neck. Consequently, slim fits in my neck size pull across my shoulders and chest in a way that is uncomfortable and, to my eye, unattractive. So give my proportions (not size) non-slim fits work best.


----------



## CSG

Fading Fast said:


> I'm 6'1" and 150lbs, back in the '80s, I basically couldn't buy a BB OCBD as it looked like I was wearing a tent with a collar and cuffs. It does seem like the '80s into the '90s was a "big" shirt / loose fit era, which was brutal for me as normal cut clothes fit loose on me.
> 
> There is plenty of historical picture evidence to show that not all OCBDs were worn loosely (can't be specific to BB). While most / all were not as tight as today's super skinny, there are plenty of "normal" fit OCBD pictures around from the day.
> 
> I bought my last BB OCBD in Regent fit and it fits very similar to Paul Newman's OCBDs in the '60s (the only similarity between Newman and me): not tight or super skinny, definitely some looseness and extra material, but not tent like or any big billows of material.
> 
> I'm hoping the outcome of the super skinny craze is that even once it is over, we end up with a few "fits" for most items so that people with smaller or larger frames don't have to abide by whatever the fit-standard is of the moment. Right now, I love that most stores have two or more fits for each size - for the first time in my life, most of my clothes don't hang loose on me.


I'm 6' and 180#. I just have one BB Traditional fit shirt currently and it is indeed billowy. I tried a Madison fit and it was still plenty billowy. My last shirts bought after Xmas, are the Regent fit and they are just right.


----------



## Brigadier Cheape

The cut of a sack jacket can accept the excess material of a fuller cut shirt and I can appreciate those that want the extra material, but I wear the extra slim fit, now called Milano and when paired with higher rise Madison fit trousers, I can achieve a conservative, well tailored look that certainly isn't out of balance or fashion forward. A regent fit shirt looks pretty good too. A longer rise will gather the excess material better and I think it's the trouser that is the most important element in achieving the look we're after. I haven't tried a Madison fit shirt, but it probably would look ok on me with dress trousers. I wear my OCBDs with jeans quite frequently and the slimmer fit is necessary for me to achieve a good look, and so the slim fit shirts can pull double duty in my closet.


----------



## Steve Smith

What started as an interesting thread has taken a non-interesting turn.


----------



## Duvel

It's a turn that sort of goes around in circles, I've noticed.


----------



## Charles Dana

Steve Smith said:


> What started as an interesting thread has taken a non-interesting turn.


I think Ensiferous's...Ensiferous'...I think the post that Ensiferous contributed--with all the pictures--was pretty darn interesting. Me like pictures.


----------



## cumberlandpeal

I would look carefully at the pictures of ads posted by Ensiferous. It would be a coldish day in hell before a trad dresser would wear sans-a-belt trousers.


----------



## Charles Dana

cumberlandpeal said:


> I would look carefully at the pictures of ads posted by Ensiferous. It would be a coldish day in hell before a trad dresser would wear sans-a-belt trousers.


Enjoy the lush forest. Don't get hung up on one tree. There's lots of beauty out there. Look for it, and you'll find it.


----------



## gamma68

Duvel said:


> This tired subject always gets everyone riled up, for some reason. It's about preference. I'm of slim build but I really enjoy the full "tent" look because it feels elegantly comfortable. Simply, I love the room. And speaking of room, there is room for everyone's preference. It's all good!


What gets me riled up is when someone espouses their personal preference as a "rule" that everyone must follow if one wants the "Trad" look. As I've said many times, and as you've stated above, fit is about personal preference. Hence the last line of my signature.



Orgetorix said:


> Someone did a comparison of BB traditional-fit OCBDs from different eras and showed they've gotten much bigger over the years. Today's Traditional Fit is not the same as the way the OCBD fit in the 50s and 60s. It's significantly bigger and baggier.


Absolutely true. American men have become *fatter *since the Ivy boom. There's no way to sugar coat it.


----------



## Fading Fast

CSG said:


> I'm 6' and 180#. I just have one BB Traditional fit shirt currently and it is indeed billowy. I tried a Madison fit and it was still plenty billowy. My last shirts bought after Xmas, are the Regent fit and they are just right.





HerrDavid said:


> This can't be emphasized enough! Although I am fairly slim, my shoulders and chest are proportionally large relative to my 14.5 neck. Consequently, slim fits in my neck size pull across my shoulders and chest in a way that is uncomfortable and, to my eye, unattractive. So give my proportions (not size) non-slim fits work best.





oxford cloth button down said:


> ...I for one cannot wear a slim fit shirt in my neck size, because my neck size is small, but I am muscular. It ends up being to tight in the shoulder/chest area. I can never move my arms. ....


I'm a 14.5 neck and comfortably fit into a Regent and other slim fit shirts. So what have we learned:

- I am the kid who gets sand kicked in his face on the beach
- I will never pick a fight with any of the guys quoted above

Kidding aside, unless my memory has completely broken down, I remember slim fit shirt offerings back in the '80s from some makers (don't remember which one, maybe Lands End), but I didn't like them as they just "darted" the back of their regular fit shirts and they looked bad. Also, as noted (and a big thanks to Ensiferous) the pictorial evidence going back to the '50s is that all fits (maybe not super skinny) existed back in most of those time periods.


----------



## CSG

FF, I'm a 17" neck (comes with age as I was a 14 1/2 through college). While I'm nowhere near fat, I do have more weight at my waist than I once did and the Regent fit has plenty of excess material there to fit my 36" waist.


----------



## HerrDavid

Fading Fast said:


> I will never pick a fight with any of the guys quoted above


.

FF, there's a less flattering way to describe my proportions: really skinny neck. I wouldn't count yourself out against this pencil-necked geek!


----------



## Fading Fast

HerrDavid said:


> .
> 
> FF, there's a less flattering way to describe my proportions: really skinny neck. I wouldn't count yourself out against this pencil-necked geek!


I have a feeling we'd be better off just grabbing a beer together and commiserating about fit challenges for thin-necked men. :beer:


----------



## Uncle Bill

I had an opportunity to see these new OCBDs in person at the RBC Plaza Brooks Brother's store in downtown Toronto back on Wednesday. I guess this comes down to "Careful what you wish for, you might just get it with just one hitch." In this case the hitch is the price and in in some quarters the pocket. This is a nicely made shirt and definitely a couple steps up from the ones we have been buying. Now the ugly reality is a really nice quality North American made OCBD with all the details this forum wants at say $50 USD regular price is just not going to happen in 2016. Now if you have access to a TARDIS, that's another story. I can see myself spending the cash on these shirts, especially if the Canadian dollar strengthens.


----------



## CSG

Personally, I no longer care about Made in USA shirts as the recent ones I've seen from BB are no better and probably not made as well as the Malaysian shirts. All I wanted from BB was a better collar like they used to make. I still haven't seen anyone post that the collar has longer points than the previous version. But no way are the new shirts worth a $48 price bump. That's more than a 50% price hike.


----------



## Duvel

Interesting. Thank you, Bill, for your review. I am beginning to come around to this change. Maybe this is waht Brooks has been counting on, customers like me changing their fickle minds! Nevertheless, I no longer see that $140 price tag as so prohibitive. As for the pocket, well, it helped to come across recently an old image of Cary Grant wearing a pocket-less ocbd. Granted (!), the image was from the '50s and not from what I would consider the golden era of TNSIL (1960-65).



Uncle Bill said:


> I had an opportunity to see these new OCBDs in person at the RBC Plaza Brooks Brother's store in downtown Toronto back on Wednesday. I guess this comes down to "Careful what you wish for, you might just get it with just one hitch." In this case the hitch is the price and in in some quarters the pocket. This is a nicely made shirt and definitely a couple steps up from the ones we have been buying. Now the ugly reality is a really nice quality North American made OCBD with all the details this forum wants at say $50 USD regular price is just not going to happen in 2016. Now if you have access to a TARDIS, that's another story. I can see myself spending the cash on these shirts, especially if the Canadian dollar strengthens.


----------



## Conservative87

Were the golden age BB OCBD's pocketless? If BB is honest in claiming that pockets were added in 1968...



Duvel said:


> Interesting. Thank you, Bill, for your review. I am beginning to come around to this change. Maybe this is waht Brooks has been counting on, customers like me changing their fickle minds! Nevertheless, I no longer see that $140 price tag as so prohibitive. As for the pocket, well, it helped to come across recently an old image of Cary Grant wearing a pocket-less ocbd. Granted (!), the image was from the '50s and not from what I would consider the golden era of TNSIL (1960-65).


----------



## LawyerBoy

If you don't like the new shirts, don't buy them. What retailer has not changed at least one of their products for the worse in the past fifty years?

Fifty years. That's half a century! 

I'm sure that, in 1965, some of the old-timers still pined for frock coats and stiff, detached collars. They wondered why in hell they couldn't find shirts without pockets anymore.

The fact of the matter is this: our world is not the world of 1965. It has seen many changes; some worse and some better. Americans don't manufacture as much as we used to, and so few Americans care as much about their clothing as the members of this fine forum do that it doesn't matter to them whether their clothing is made with the same integrity as it used to be made. Retailers wind up in economic peril when they do not understand this reality. Brooks Brothers wants their business to survive, so they adapt to the market. We can either cry about that fact or look for something better. 

In my mind, Brooks Brothers makes fine clothing at a pretty good price. They're certainly cheaper than the rest of their quality competitors, but they still have to compete against Jos. A. Bank and Dillard's for the Average Joe who needs one or two suits. Walking that fine line without forcing themselves into bankruptcy is tough.

If you're expecting a dress shirt to remain at its current price for the rest of your life, then you don't understand economic reality. $25 in 1966 had the buying power of $188 in today's money.


----------



## Uncle Bill

Well put.



LawyerBoy said:


> If you don't like the new shirts, don't buy them. What retailer has not changed at least one of their products for the worse in the past fifty years?
> 
> Fifty years. That's half a century!
> 
> I'm sure that, in 1965, some of the old-timers still pined for frock coats and stiff, detached collars. They wondered why in hell they couldn't find shirts without pockets anymore.
> 
> The fact of the matter is this: our world is not the world of 1965. It has seen many changes; some worse and some better. Americans don't manufacture as much as we used to, and so few Americans care as much about their clothing as the members of this fine forum do that it doesn't matter to them whether their clothing is made with the same integrity as it used to be made. Retailers wind up in economic peril when they do not understand this reality. Brooks Brothers wants their business to survive, so they adapt to the market. We can either cry about that fact or look for something better.
> 
> In my mind, Brooks Brothers makes fine clothing at a pretty good price. They're certainly cheaper than the rest of their quality competitors, but they still have to compete against Jos. A. Bank and Dillard's for the Average Joe who needs one or two suits. Walking that fine line without forcing themselves into bankruptcy is tough.
> 
> If you're expecting a dress shirt to remain at its current price for the rest of your life, then you don't understand economic reality. $25 in 1966 had the buying power of $188 in today's money.


----------



## CornoUltimo

Uncle Bill said:


> Well put.


Yes, very well done


----------



## Danny

Anyone have a photo or two of the new shirt?


----------



## peterc

I like the shirts and the price does not really bother me, but the lack of a pocket is a killer for me.

Wonder if BB will do these MTM?


----------



## Fading Fast

Got a big promotional email from BB on:
"An American Icon Returns"
This is the link to the promotional self love:

https://[email protected]&u=37871779&jb=0&mid=7001508


----------



## gamma68

Fading Fast said:


> Got a big promotional email from BB on:
> *"An American Icon Returns"*
> 
> This is the link to the promotional self love:
> 
> https://[email protected]&u=37871779&jb=0&mid=7001508


I also received that email.

Nice photos of the "signature collar" with no tie on either model. The first model photo is particularly bad. Looks like he got clobbered on the head before staring off into the distance. The second model has rolled up his sleeves in sloppy fashion. Awful marketing images.


----------



## orange fury

I keep harping on this, but the lack of a pocket is really bothering me on these (probably more than it should, but still...)


----------



## sjk

Just curious- has anyone ever had any shirt, OCBD or otherwise, pull apart at the bottom side seams, where there are now gussets to prevent this?


----------



## rmpmcdermott

I thought the gusset was to help keep the shirt tucked in, but I could be wrong.


----------



## richard warren

Uncle Bill said:


> Well put.


I hope the two of you buy a lot of them. Adding "features" I don't need as an excuse to raise the price doesn't do it for me. If they want to go out of the buton down business, ok. Just don't try to sell it as a good thing.


----------



## FLMike

richard warren said:


> I hope the two of you buy a lot of them. Adding "features" I don't need as an excuse to raise the price doesn't do it for me. If they want to go out of the buton down business, ok. Just don't try to sell it as a good thing.


Oh, they're still in the button-down business. Non-iron BDs for miles.


----------



## rtd1

I may pick up a couple once Father's Day and their semi-annual 40% off sale rolls around.


----------



## Fading Fast

sjk said:


> Just curious- has anyone ever had any shirt, OCBD or otherwise, pull apart at the bottom side seams, where there are now gussets to prevent this?


Nope. It is on my concern list right next to the bristles falling out of my toothbrush - who doesn't replace their toothbrush long before that would ever happen. Yup, they've solved a problem that doesn't exist. It's all marketing.

That said, I want to try one and will on the first sale that allows me to buy it below my completely arbitrary and emotional round number of $100.


----------



## CSG

FF, kinda my feelings too. The problem I had with the previous version was manufacturing quality. I think what BB did with these will prove to be a mistake and that they will ultimately end up lowering MSRP. I *might* try one a 40% off but at $84, that's still more than what it should be.

I couldn't be more disappointed in what BB has become over these past couple decades.


----------



## AldenPyle

Fading Fast said:


> Nope. It is on my concern list right next to the bristles falling out of my toothbrush - who doesn't replace their toothbrush long before that would ever happen. Yup, they've solved a problem that doesn't exist. It's all marketing.
> 
> That said, I want to try one and will on the first sale that allows me to buy it below my completely arbitrary and emotional round number of $100.


Is there a spring Friends and Family?


----------



## Fading Fast

AldenPyle said:


> Is there a spring Friends and Family?


I don't have BB sales cycle locked in my brain, but I believe there is some spring event. Also, BB does send me an occasion coupon code for x% off one item (I'm sure you are signed up for its email promotions) and the site does seem to do some type of sale - buy 3 for X, etc. - not every month, but a few times a year. Hence, I think I'll be able to buy the new OCBD sub $100 sometime in the next several months.


----------



## Galt

Just picked one up...

PROS:
Unlined collar-- amazing roll, better than any shirt I have. Definitely worth checking out. 
Unlined cuffs-- also great

NEUTRAL:
No pocket-- this caught me by surprise, but I kind of like it now
Price-- it's expensive, but the price doesn't bother me, all their shirt prices have gone up

CONS:
Weave-- The fabric weight seems littler than the predecessor, not as beefy
Length-- This might be the deal breaker for me. It is advertised as a "longer" shirt tail; however, it is shorter than all my other Brooks shirts (including the older OCBD's) in the same size and fit. Plus, it is cut very high on the sides. It is filled with gussets, but the sides are still higher than their other shirts, and the sides keep coming un-tucked on me.

VERDICT:
Phenomenal collar, but I think I like the old shirt better overall. My preference would have been to keep the old version and just remove the collar lining... that would be perfect for me.


----------



## SlideGuitarist

Galt said:


> Just picked one up...
> 
> Length-- This might be the deal breaker for me. It is advertised as a "longer" shirt tail; however, it is shorter than all my other Brooks shirts (including the older OCBD's) in the same size and fit. Plus, it is cut very high on the sides. It is filled with gussets, but the sides are still higher than their other shirts, and the sides keep coming un-tucked on me.


I don't know what superlative I should use to express how little I care about the pocket...but the length is actually a deal-killer for me.


----------



## blue suede shoes

For that kind of money and the descriptions that I have read in this thread, I'll be patronizing Ralph or going custom.


----------



## Fading Fast

Galt said:


> Just picked one up...
> 
> PROS:
> Unlined collar-- amazing roll, better than any shirt I have. Definitely worth checking out.
> Unlined cuffs-- also great
> 
> NEUTRAL:
> No pocket-- this caught me by surprise, but I kind of like it now
> Price-- it's expensive, but the price doesn't bother me, all their shirt prices have gone up
> 
> CONS:
> Weave-- The fabric weight seems littler than the predecessor, not as beefy
> Length-- This might be the deal breaker for me. It is advertised as a "longer" shirt tail; however, it is shorter than all my other Brooks shirts (including the older OCBD's) in the same size and fit. Plus, it is cut very high on the sides. It is filled with gussets, but the sides are still higher than their other shirts, and the sides keep coming un-tucked on me.
> 
> VERDICT:
> Phenomenal collar, but I think I like the old shirt better overall. My preference would have been to keep the old version and just remove the collar lining... that would be perfect for me.


Wow, hard to believe they advertise it as longer and made it shorter - sad reflection of BB's character.

And a lighter weave is a big negative - heft, IMHO, is part of what makes Oxford cloth, Oxford cloth.

I'm even more excited now to see and feel the unlined collar.

Based on your "Verdict," I wish they had done what you said - just removed the collar lining - and kicked the price up a bit if they had to.


----------



## LawyerBoy

Perhaps you just found a defective shirt, because the length on my Regent fit feels substantially longer than my previous Regent fit OCBDs. So much so that, if I tuck it all the way in, I sit on it and it chokes me. 

Are you sure you didn't get a different fit or a different size?


----------



## Hayek

CSG said:


> FF, kinda my feelings too. The problem I had with the previous version was manufacturing quality. I think what BB did with these will prove to be a mistake and that they will ultimately end up lowering MSRP. I *might* try one a 40% off but at $84, that's still more than what it should be.
> 
> I couldn't be more disappointed in what BB has become over these past couple decades.


On what basis are you claiming that the price is more than "what it should be?" The price is perfectly in line with competing products from Michael Spencer, Mercer, O'Connell's, etc, and with the frequent 15-25%+ off sales, it's actually cheaper than some of those options.


----------



## gamma68

Hayek said:


> On what basis are you claiming that the price is more than "what it should be?" The price is perfectly in line with competing products from Michael Spencer, Mercer, O'Connell's, etc .....


This presumes that Michael Spencer, Mercer and O'Connell's offer its OCBDs at reasonable prices. Just because BB jacks up its prices to meet the overpriced competition doesn't mean it's a good business practice.

$140 is too much to pay for an OCBD. I'll wait for a sale or an opportunity to apply a gift card.


----------



## CSG

Hayek said:


> On what basis are you claiming that the price is more than "what it should be?" The price is perfectly in line with competing products from Michael Spencer, Mercer, O'Connell's, etc, and with the frequent 15-25%+ off sales, it's actually cheaper than some of those options.


A couple of those are MTM shirts. However, please explain the cost of making a shirt; materials and labor, etc.


----------



## Califax

CSG said:


> A couple of those are MTM shirts. However, please explain the cost of making a shirt; materials and labor, etc.


Unless you're a Marxist, neo- or not, the "price" of a good does NOT equal "cost" to make (labor + materials and whatever else your using to account for "cost"). Not even close. That's simply not how markets work; nor how companies operating in markets operate.


----------



## CSG

Look above - that was the point going over your head.


----------



## niv

LawyerBoy said:


> Perhaps you just found a defective shirt, because the length on my Regent fit feels substantially longer than my previous Regent fit OCBDs. So much so that, if I tuck it all the way in, I sit on it and it chokes me.
> 
> Are you sure you didn't get a different fit or a different size?


Anyone else have a review of the shirts? I'm particularly interest in the issue of length. I was thinking of buying a couple but won't if the shirts are too short.


----------



## FLMike

CSG said:


> Look above - that was the point going over your head.


At the risk off entering a quibble I have no stake in, I don't think he missed the point at all. Hayek was comparing the prices of various comparable OCBDs in the market. At no time did he bring production cost into the equation. You then asked him about the cost of making a shirt, at which point Califax observed that cost doesn't necessarily dictate price. Whether or not I agree with Califax, I don't think he missed your point. If anything, it seems you may have missed his.


----------



## Hayek

gamma68 said:


> This presumes that Michael Spencer, Mercer and O'Connell's offer its OCBDs at reasonable prices. Just because BB jacks up its prices to meet the overpriced competition doesn't mean it's a good business practice.
> 
> $140 is too much to pay for an OCBD. I'll wait for a sale or an opportunity to apply a gift card.


If one of these companies can steal the market for US made OCBDs with all the trad features we want by setting the price of their shirts at, say, $80, one of them likely would have done it. Making clothes in America is (relatively) expensive and nobody outside of posters on this board really care about an unlined collar, etc. If you think it's unreasonable to pay that much then that's fine, but I really don't see how someone can claim that these shirts are too expensive when every comparable shirt on the market is in the same ballpark.


----------



## Ole Hickory

I like mine. The shirt weighs less due to the absence of the lining is "more refined" than your typical ocbd. It's at least on par with Mercer 's Oxford cloth. Cut is decent on the Madison, certainly not baggy.


----------



## gamma68

Hayek said:


> If one of these companies can steal the market for US made OCBDs with all the trad features we want by setting the price of their shirts at, say, $80, one of them likely would have done it. Making clothes in America is (relatively) expensive and nobody outside of posters on this board really care about an unlined collar, etc. If you think it's unreasonable to pay that much then that's fine, but I really don't see how someone can claim that these shirts are too expensive when every comparable shirt on the market is in the same ballpark.


I can't speak to consumer demand for OCBDs with Trad features outside of this forum. But someone like Lands' End could swoop in and outright steal the Trad OCBD market.

LE could essentially take its Supima cotton Hyde Park Oxford, lengthen the collar points and shirt tails, and offer an unlined collar. Keep the chest pocket. They can continue to make them in Malaysia (where BB makes most of their shirts anyway), optimally offer them at something around your suggested $80 (they're $49 today and I don't know if LE would _have _to raise pricing that high), and blow BB out of the water. I don't need side gussets and MOP buttons. Would I prefer USA-made? Sure. But I don't necessarily need the tag to read "USA made" if a shirt maker is going to offer all the Trad details for a great price.


----------



## Desirable Result

I just received their buttondowns and beyond catalog and emailed them this comment that you just made Gamma


----------



## FLMike

I had a Hyde Park OCBD once, several years ago, and hated the feel of it. It was very stiff and "cardboard-like". I like how the discontinued BB shirt is both hefty and soft at the same time.


----------



## FLMike

Desirable Result said:


> I just received their buttondowns and beyond catalog and *emailed them this comment that you just made Gamma*


Let's hope your email has the desired result. :cool2:


----------



## gamma68

FLCracka said:


> I had a Hyde Park OCBD once, several years ago, and hated the feel of it. It was very stiff and "cardboard-like". I like how the discontinued BB shirt is both hefty and soft at the same time.


I admit there is a difference in the hand of the Oxford cloth, but the Hyde Park isn't overly stiff to me.

If LE can make some adjustment and approximate the hand of BB's Oxford cloth, pay attention to the Trad details, and keep the price at $80, they could have a winner.


----------



## FLMike

gamma68 said:


> I admit there is a difference in the hand of the Oxford cloth, but the Hyde Park isn't overly stiff to me.
> 
> If LE can make some adjustment and approximate the hand of BB's Oxford cloth, pay attention to the Trad details, and keep the price at $80, they could have a winner.


I agree. They may have changed the HP a bit since I owned mine. There's just something about the hand of the BB OCBD that I've yet to feel in another make. That's what makes this change so frustrating for me.


----------



## oxford cloth button down

gamma68 said:


> I can't speak to consumer demand for OCBDs with Trad features outside of this forum. But someone like Lands' End could swoop in and outright steal the Trad OCBD market.
> 
> LE could essentially take its Supima cotton Hyde Park Oxford, lengthen the collar points and shirt tails, and offer an unlined collar. Keep the chest pocket. They can continue to make them in Malaysia (where BB makes most of their shirts anyway), optimally offer them at something around your suggested $80 (they're $49 today and I don't know if LE would _have _to raise pricing that high), and blow BB out of the water. I don't need side gussets and MOP buttons. Would I prefer USA-made? Sure. But I don't necessarily need the tag to read "USA made" if a shirt maker is going to offer all the Trad details for a great price.


I have brought this idea to LE several times since they began to shrink their collars. Actually, all I suggested is bringing back the longer collar. They expressed no interest. In fact, they expressed the opposite of interest. Maybe BB's move will change matters.


----------



## CSG

gamma68 said:


> I can't speak to consumer demand for OCBDs with Trad features outside of this forum. But someone like Lands' End could swoop in and outright steal the Trad OCBD market.
> 
> LE could essentially take its Supima cotton Hyde Park Oxford, lengthen the collar points and shirt tails, and offer an unlined collar. Keep the chest pocket. They can continue to make them in Malaysia (where BB makes most of their shirts anyway), optimally offer them at something around your suggested $80 (they're $49 today and I don't know if LE would _have _to raise pricing that high), and blow BB out of the water. I don't need side gussets and MOP buttons. Would I prefer USA-made? Sure. But I don't necessarily need the tag to read "USA made" if a shirt maker is going to offer all the Trad details for a great price.


Agree completely. Bought three of their Hyde Park shirts for $33 each on a sale around Xmas. Terrific shirt for the money, even at MSRP. I'd like to see longer collar points and no lining in the cuffs or collars but I don't think LE is interested. They only have a few colors of interest to me anyway. But if LE wanted to, they could own the market with a slightly tweaked $50 shirt.


----------



## LawyerBoy

niv said:


> Anyone else have a review of the shirts? I'm particularly interest in the issue of length. I was thinking of buying a couple but won't if the shirts are too short.


If I can remember to do so, I will measure my new OCBD, compare it with my older ones, and let you know. Of course, the length may well change with the neck size, as I know the circumference of the shirt does, so your mileage may vary.


----------



## Desirable Result

FLCracka said:


> Let's hope your email has the desired result. :cool2:


response

,
Thank you for taking the time to contact Lands' End to share your product suggestion. We love to hear from our customers.

Your suggestions are always welcome and appreciated. We do consider customer feedback when making future product development decisions.

We value your suggestions and have forwarded your comments to the appropriate product manager for further review. Some of our best ideas come from our customers!

If we may be of assistance in the future, please feel free to contact us. We are always willing to help.
Sincerely,

Mickey J.
Online Custo


----------



## Himself

oxford cloth button down said:


> I have brought this idea to LE several times since they began to shrink their collars. Actually, all I suggested is bringing back the longer collar. They expressed no interest. In fact, they expressed the opposite of interest. Maybe BB's move will change matters.


Remembering back 30+ years, Lands End always seemed like a dork company that never quite "got it."

They could indeed continue to sell the otherwise nice Sail Rigger oxfords to the dinky collar and untucked crowd, while returning the Hyde Park to its former glory.


----------



## Tiger

A tweaked Hyde Park as suggested here would be very much welcomed!

Let's also keep in mind that the Hyde Park has been a frustratingly variant product, as vendor and manufacturing location changes have contributed to very different versions of the shirt. That's why some of us can claim that the material is scratchy and uncomfortable, or silky smooth and hefty like BB. I've purchased Hyde Parks over the past couple of decades, and I can verify that every criticism and compliment can be true. 

When done right - and my past few purchases have been so - the LE Hyde Park is an excellent value!


----------



## Puig

I just looked at these online, and they do look tempting, although I spent a good deal of time a while ago trying to track down both a pink and a yellow university stripe, ended up getting the pink from J Press, and the yellow a RL Ebay find. I wish Brooks would have just offered the current must irons in more colors, that would have been fine with me, although I have to confess that the unlined collar is really tempting, the cuffs and collars on my Press oxfords are like cardboard, nothing like the old days. I do wish these had pockets...


----------



## crispyfresh

Tiger said:


> A tweaked Hyde Park as suggested here would be very much welcomed!
> 
> Let's also keep in mind that the Hyde Park has been a frustratingly variant product, as vendor and manufacturing location changes have contributed to very different versions of the shirt. That's why some of us can claim that the material is scratchy and uncomfortable, or silky smooth and hefty like BB. I've purchased Hyde Parks over the past couple of decades, and I can verify that every criticism and compliment can be true.
> 
> When done right - and my past few purchases have been so - the LE Hyde Park is an excellent value!


Im new to OCBD'S. Thanx for making me aware of the Lands End Hyde Park.


----------



## EastVillageTrad

I stopped into Madison Avenue the other day and saw these. They are nice, but not at $140.


----------



## DCLawyer68

Very late to this party. I had read about them, but first saw one today.

It's very nice, but honestly, other than the lack of a pocket and perhaps the MOP buttons, no one but perhaps the fussiest die hard would have noticed. I bought an aqua collegiate stripe because of the 25% sale. But I will not be purchasing them for $140.

Initially I had thought this was sort of a limited time gimmick. Get the "original model" for a limited time, etc., etc.

So I was disappointed frankly that the price had gone up so tremendously. I had recently purchased a $95 model white and blue in my size, so I went online and was able to get a pink and yellow as well (I had yellow, but only a non-iron) giving me a set in my size of the 4 colors (I don't do ecru). Given how many other shirts I have and how often I wear a OCBD, it will likely be years before I need to replace them (they probably won't be $140 any more!).

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see BB retreat on this one.


----------



## DCLawyer68

Hayek said:


> If one of these companies can steal the market for US made OCBDs with all the trad features we want by setting the price of their shirts at, say, $80, one of them likely would have done it. Making clothes in America is (relatively) expensive and nobody outside of posters on this board really care about an unlined collar, etc. If you think it's unreasonable to pay that much then that's fine, but I really don't see how someone can claim that these shirts are too expensive when every comparable shirt on the market is in the same ballpark.


I'd just say that they were selling them for $95, and now they're selling what they claim to be the replacement model (with some extra plussing re buttons, etc.) for $140.

Perhaps they thought they were radically under priced to begin with. But I recall paying $48 for this shirt in the 1990s in law school and they could actually accurately claim that they had not raised the real price since (a claim they have made in their advertising).

This is certainly no longer true.


----------



## DCLawyer68

gamma68 said:


> If LE can make some adjustment and approximate the hand of BB's Oxford cloth, pay attention to the Trad details, and keep the price at $80, they could have a winner.


They certainly could now with the BB pricing.


----------



## Tempest

I just need to snicker at the claim that the "side gusset" adds durability. It adds bulk. Dimwits see it as a feature. Has anyone had the side seam of a shirt fail, ever?


----------



## Pentheos

Does anyone know if they are liquidating the old stock at the NC factory? One of our members who buys/sells from there had a large haul recently for sale. If so, I would like to snap up the NOS and buy HTJ for generations to come.


----------



## DCLawyer68

I'm wearing my new BB button down today... other than the lack of a pocket I can't detect any difference between the $140 version and the $95 version it has replaced.


----------



## Fading Fast

DCLawyer68 said:


> I'm wearing my new BB button down today... other than the lack of a pocket I can't detect any difference between the $140 version and the $95 version it has replaced.


After purchasing the shirt, they knew no one would have any money left to put in the pocket, so they figured, why bother.

While Astaire was fluid elegance - Horton was a fine character actor.


----------



## Charles Dana

Fading Fast said:


> While Astaire was fluid elegance - Horton was a fine character actor.


True. One should watch--or watch again--Top Hat, the 1935 musical starring Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, featuring an unforgettable performance by Edward Everett Horton.

Today--81 years later--you could wear the sport coat, button-down shirt, necktie and trousers that Astaire wears while singing "Isn't it a Lovely Day" in that movie and not look out of time. Astaire's lapels, collar roll, and necktie width are timeless. (His trousers, of course, have a long [i.e., proper] rise, which you hardly see nowadays, but if you kept your jacket buttoned, nobody would know.)


----------



## Fading Fast

Charles Dana said:


> True. One should watch--or watch again--Top Hat, the 1935 musical starring Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, featuring an unforgettable performance by Edward Everett Horton.
> 
> Today--81 years later--you could wear the sport coat, button-down shirt, necktie and trousers that Astaire wears while singing "Isn't it a Lovely Day" in that movie and not look out of time. Astaire's lapels, collar roll, and necktie width are timeless. (His trousers, of course, have a long [i.e., proper] rise, which you hardly see nowadays, but if you kept your jacket buttoned, nobody would know.)


Agreed. It really is amazing how many times you watch movies from the '30s and, with only the smallest of tweaks, the men's outfits would look normal (albeit, very well dressed for our casual world) today. But drop back one decade and the clothes of the '20s have a very dated feel to them. Also, Astaire just wore clothes well - his fluidity transferred right through to his clothes as he and his clothes all moved in natural harmony


----------



## Steve Smith

Pentheos said:


> Does anyone know if they are liquidating the old stock at the NC factory? One of our members who buys/sells from there had a large haul recently for sale. If so, I would like to snap up the NOS and buy HTJ for generations to come.


The liquidation of stock flows from retail stores back to the warehouse, and then to the Clearance Center. There is always a time lag, and I would not expect to see any significant amount of stock until the $95 shirts are no longer a current catalog item.

Recently the Clearance Center has had quite a lot of shirts with sport sizing (S, M, L) which appear to be manufactured to use up leftover Thom Browne materials. There are odd geometric fabrics which I do not associate with normal BB offerings, and they are using up grosgrain as side gussets on shirts.


----------



## orange fury

Does anyone know of any sales coming up at Brooks? The old OCBDs are currently at $79.50, and I'm deciding whether i should purchase a couple now, or if there's going to be a better sale in the next month or so- I was thinking there was one in March, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Fading Fast

orange fury said:


> Does anyone know of any sales coming up at Brooks? The old OCBDs are currently at $79.50, and I'm deciding whether i should purchase a couple now, or if there's going to be a better sale in the next month or so- I was thinking there was one in March, but I could be wrong.


I'm in the same boat with you - $80 plus shipping still ain't cheap, but does beat $140. I'm holding out, but would love to hear from someone with more knowledge (or, compared to me, with any knowledge).


----------



## August West

orange fury said:


> Does anyone know of any sales coming up at Brooks? The old OCBDs are currently at $79.50, and I'm deciding whether i should purchase a couple now, or if there's going to be a better sale in the next month or so- I was thinking there was one in March, but I could be wrong.


Not sure how much this helps, but I found BB receipts from 3/18/15 and 03/20/14 both reflecting 30% off which I can safely assume was the double corporate discount sale.Based on that, I'm inclined to say that the sales run at a fairly regular interval on the calendar.


----------



## Orgetorix

Yeah, that's about the right timing for the corporate sale.


----------



## mjo_1

Someone on the "When is the next BB sale" thread at Styleforum indicated it the corporate sale would be March 10. I haven't confirmed this from any other source, though.


----------



## Tabascocat2

orange fury said:


> Does anyone know of any sales coming up at Brooks? The old OCBDs are currently at $79.50, and I'm deciding whether i should purchase a couple now, or if there's going to be a better sale in the next month or so- I was thinking there was one in March, but I could be wrong.


Per corporateshopping.com, which has always been correct in the past, the Brooks Brothers 30% off corporate shopping event is March 10th this year.


----------



## orange fury

mjo_1 said:


> Someone on the "When is the next BB sale" thread at Styleforum indicated it the corporate sale would be March 10. I haven't confirmed this from any other source, though.





Tabascocat2 said:


> Per corporateshopping.com, which has always been correct in the past, the Brooks Brothers 30% off corporate shopping event is March 10th this year.


I hope this is correct, OF will have several new OCBDs coming in the next couple weeks if this is the case.

also, Tabascocat2- welcome to AAAC, and I like your screen name


----------



## mjo_1

orange fury said:


> I hope this is correct, OF will have several new OCBDs coming in the next couple weeks if this is the case.
> 
> also, Tabascocat2- welcome to AAAC, and I like your screen name


Good deal, I'm glad to see an outside confirmation.

Generally the above mentioned Styleforum thread is pretty good as far as giving details of sale dates, discount stacking opportunities, etc. It's worth a look from time to time.


----------



## DCLawyer68

Fading Fast said:


> After purchasing the shirt, they knew no one would have any money left to put in the pocket, so they figured, why bother.
> 
> While Astaire was fluid elegance - Horton was a fine character actor.


:chinese:


----------



## Brooksfan

Saw the shirts in a Chicago suburban store last night. They are fine but more than the price increase, pocket removal, etc., I'm most disappointed that the Traditional Cut has been eliminated. I confirmed that's not just with the oxford must-iron shirts but across the board.


----------



## Anon 18th Cent.

Brooksfan said:


> Saw the shirts in a Chicago suburban store last night. They are fine but more than the price increase, pocket removal, etc., I'm most disappointed that the Traditional Cut has been eliminated. I confirmed that's not just with the oxford must-iron shirts but across the board.


+1,000


----------



## Shaver

Tempest said:


> I just need to snicker at the claim that the "side gusset" adds durability. It adds bulk. Dimwits see it as a feature. Has anyone had the side seam of a shirt fail, ever?


I favour shirts with tails of a decent length, fully covering my rear end. Sitting down tugs at this seam and the gusset is a sensible precaution. Nightshirts I own which do not benefit from a side gusset have split and required my attention with needle and thread.


----------



## orange fury

orange fury said:


> Does anyone know of any sales coming up at Brooks? The old OCBDs are currently at $79.50, and I'm deciding whether i should purchase a couple now, or if there's going to be a better sale in the next month or so- I was thinking there was one in March, but I could be wrong.





Fading Fast said:


> I'm in the same boat with you - $80 plus shipping still ain't cheap, but does beat $140. I'm holding out, but would love to hear from someone with more knowledge (or, compared to me, with any knowledge).





August West said:


> Not sure how much this helps, but I found BB receipts from 3/18/15 and 03/20/14 both reflecting 30% off which I can safely assume was the double corporate discount sale.Based on that, I'm inclined to say that the sales run at a fairly regular interval on the calendar.





mjo_1 said:


> Someone on the "When is the next BB sale" thread at Styleforum indicated it the corporate sale would be March 10. I haven't confirmed this from any other source, though.


For those interested, I received an email yesterday from BB confirming 3/10. In regards to my question though, I did notice that the old OCBDs were still marked down to $79.99, so I'm wondering if these might be excluded


----------



## Orgetorix

orange fury said:


> For those interested, I received an email yesterday from BB confirming 3/10. In regards to my question though, I did notice that the old OCBDs were still marked down to $79.99, so I'm wondering if these might be excluded


If you talk to a store associate, you should be able to get them to give them to you for at least $66.50, which is 30% off the regular $95 price.


----------



## Coliningus

orange fury said:


> For those interested, I received an email yesterday from BB confirming 3/10. In regards to my question though, I did notice that the old OCBDs were still marked down to $79.99, so I'm wondering if these might be excluded


We might be in luck; it looks like just this morning the old OCBDs were knocked down to a regular price of $69.50


----------



## orange fury

Coliningus said:


> We might be in luck; it looks like just this morning the old OCBDs were knocked down to a regular price of $69.50


Where are you seeing this? I'm still seeing $79.50


----------



## Coliningus

orange fury said:


> Where are you seeing this? I'm still seeing $79.50


Sorry for the false alarm. The pinpoint and oxford shirts have the same web page title... :confused2:


----------



## Ted_Baer

OK, so the old OCBD (also made in USA) sold for $95. So add one or two minor features and maybe slightly better cotton and heavily advertise the made in USA and viola, jack the price up 50%. 

And by the way, this slim fit version is not an "American Icon". This is another blunder on the part of BB.


----------



## cumberlandpeal

They must be getting near the end of their stock on these older, better, OCBDs. At $79.5 I think I will order a half dozen in white which should last me until they bring them back after the American Icon versions fail.

I haven't tried one of the new ones because they don't come in traditional fit which I prefer. The first BB shirts I bought back in the late 1960s were without pocket, so that part is "iconic."


----------



## Conservative87

Posting from my phone. Here is a photo of a beaten 132Q purchased in 2013 and washed and machines dried more times than I care to admit.


http://imgur.com/PlHuwu0

 is this a suitable roll? Would the new offerings produce a much better roll or is most of the roll found in length and button placement of the collar


----------



## Coliningus

Conservative87 said:


> Posting from my phone. Here is a photo of a beaten 132Q purchased in 2013 and washed and machines dried more times than I care to admit.
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/PlHuwu0
> 
> is this a suitable roll? Would the new offerings produce a much better roll or is most of the roll found in length and button placement of the collar


Looks pretty good, but it's hard to tell for sure because your top button is unbuttoned


----------



## Orgetorix

Orgetorix said:


> If you talk to a store associate, you should be able to get them to give them to you for at least $66.50, which is 30% off the regular $95 price.


As I thought, they are showing up at $66.50 today on the website, if you have your corporate shopping profile activated on your BB account.


----------



## orange fury

Orgetorix said:


> As I thought, they are showing up at $66.50 today on the website, if you have your corporate shopping profile activated on your BB account.


Yep just ordered 3. I think if anyone is considering getting some of the old OCBDs, now is the time to do it- the yellow (529Q) and red stripe (530Q) were the only ones in my size.


----------



## Coliningus

orange fury said:


> Yep just ordered 3. I think if anyone is considering getting some of the old OCBDs, now is the time to do it- the yellow (529Q) and red stripe (530Q) were the only ones in my size.


Agreed. I just got the blue and white old OCBDs for $66.50 as well, though I had to call to amend the order because for some reason my corporate discount wasn't reflected online. If only they had pink in my size!


----------



## orange fury

Coliningus said:


> Agreed. I just got the blue and white old OCBDs for $66.50 as well, though I had to call to amend the order because for some reason my corporate discount wasn't reflected online. If only they had pink in my size!


I need one more blue/white to round out my collection, but they ran out of my size a while back.


----------



## Coliningus

orange fury said:


> I need one more blue/white to round out my collection...


I've said the same about many a clothing item, and somehow my collection remains incomplete...


----------



## gamma68

Orgetorix said:


> As I thought, they are showing up at $66.50 today on the website, if you have your corporate shopping profile activated on your BB account.


Where did you see this price? They are displaying at $79.50 presently. And I have a corporate membership card.


----------



## FLMike

gamma68 said:


> Where did you see this price? They are displaying at $79.50 presently. And I have a corporate membership card.


Are you logged into you account? For me, the price changes from $79.50 to $66.50 once you get to the Payment/Review section of the checkout process.


----------



## gamma68

FLCracka said:


> Are you logged into you account? For me, the price changes from $79.50 to $66.50 once you get to the Payment/Review section of the checkout process.


Yes, I'm logged in and the price still reflects $79.50, marked down from $95.00

What gives?


----------



## gamma68

Ah, never mind. I just hadn't proceeded far enough into the checkout process. The $66.50 is showing up now.


----------



## crater64

*I joined this forum today for this very reason*



Brooksfan said:


> Saw the shirts in a Chicago suburban store last night. They are fine but more than the price increase, pocket removal, etc., *I'm most disappointed that the Traditional Cut has been eliminated.* I confirmed that's not just with the oxford must-iron shirts but across the board.


Hello all,

I just joined this forum today for this very reason. I have been buying BB Traditional Fit OCBDs for several decades, either in must-iron or no-iron (which I still iron anyway) form. I wanted to take advantage of this past week's Corporate Membership discount day (March 10) and replace a couple of white OCBDs that are staring to look dingy. I was dismayed to find out that Traditional Fit has been discontinued, leaving Madison ("regular"), Regent ("slim") and Milano ("I wear girls' jeans") Fits only. I ordered two white no-iron OCBDs in Madison, one in the size I take in Traditional Fit and one a half-size larger. I'm waiting for them to be delivered but I don't have high hopes for them.

A call earlier today to my nearest BB Outlet store confirmed that the outlet-only 346 line is eliminating its "regular fit" and will only stock slim fit once current inventories are sold out.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but I don't foresee this new, made-in-NC line being offered in Traditional Fit either.

I am a 52-year-old man; if I live another week I'll be 53. I am shaped like a barrel and, even if I get on a hardcore diet and exercise regimen, I will remain shaped like a barrel. I realize I am no longer in any retailer's target demographic but I will never have the frame to pull off any kind of slim fit dress shirt as is the current fashion. Barring some future shift in marketing direction I very much doubt I'll be buying anymore BB dress shirts.

Apologies for the rant; I'm off to search this forum to learn more about Press, Gitman, Mercer _et al_.


----------



## orange fury

crater64 said:


> Milano ("I wear girls' jeans")
> 
> Apologies for the rant; I'm off to search this forum to learn more about Press, Gitman, Mercer _et al_.


First- welcome to AAAC!

Second- careful with the broad generalizations. Im a runner and play lacrosse (i.e., very active), and the Milano shirts fit me perfectly (slim/fitted, but not spandex). They fit better than some made to measure shirts I own.

Third- you mentioned it, but check out Mercer.


----------



## crater64

orange fury said:


> First- welcome to AAAC!
> 
> Second- careful with the broad generalizations. Im a runner and play lacrosse (i.e., very active), and the Milano shirts fit me perfectly (slim/fitted, but not spandex). They fit better than some made to measure shirts I own.
> 
> Third- you mentioned it, but check out Mercer.


First - thank you!

Second - my apologies. Milano is a very very slim fit. I played football and rugby, not a runner but with a low center of gravity.

Third - Mercer looks promising.


----------



## rl1856

I stopped in to my local BB and had a look at the shirt in question. I was not impressed. Very Light weight fabric and of course the lack of Traditional Fit. I did like the collar and placket however. I spoke with a salesman, and he confirmed what others have posted; "Traditional Fit" in "to iron" fabric will no longer be available except by special order. He thought that the Traditional Fit may be available again in a NON IRON Pinpoint. I thanked him. Another customer overheard our exchange, and he bemoaned the loss of the shirt that the company was famous for.

What I want to know is this: Was the radical change driven by lack of demand for a Traditional Fit, or profit margins ? If the former, then there may be a large supply of Traditional Fit shirts coming to outlets, and specifically to Garland NC. If the later, then this will be yet another data point indicating that the BB we all knew and loved is dead.

RIP Golden Fleece.


----------



## roman totale XVII

Bought a couple in the recent 30% off Corp sale, which made them just under $100 each - just about palatable. My local store had stacks of them, but for some reason, only in Regent fit, so had to wait for the Madisons to be mailed. Wore them this week and liked them a lot. Very comfortable and a close match to the handful of vintage BB OCBDs I have. Lack of pocket a non-issue for me in a dress shirt. It may bug me in the future as they get relegated to casual wear!

A word on the yellow uni stripe - the yellow is much more of a tangerine color than a bold, bright canary yellow. A good thing in my book - a handsome shirt that doesn't wash you out.


----------



## FLMike

roman totale XVII said:


> A word on the yellow uni stripe - the yellow is much more of a tangerine color than a bold, bright canary yellow. A good thing in my book - a handsome shirt that doesn't wash you out.


I bought the yellow uni during the recent double Corp discount day also, and wore it today for the first time. I don't really see the tangerine color, but I do like the shirt. The thing I notice most about it (other than the lack of a pocket) is how thin and flimsy the collar, placket, and cuffs feel, given the lack of interlining. I like it, but it kind of feels cheaper to me, as in, this should cost less to produce....not more!


----------



## CSG

It would be a great $50-60 shirt. I used to be a regular customer of BB from the late 70's until the very early 90's. After last year's post Xmas sale, I see nothing of theirs that really interests me anymore. It was a helluva company once upon a time.


----------



## FLMike

CSG said:


> It would be a great $50-60 shirt.


Agreed, but realizing that's not realistic, I'd be happy if it were a $90 shirt that I could buy a couple times a year during the double discount sales for $63. I know it's been lamented ad nauseam, but this $140 price point really is silly.


----------



## CSG

Yeah, I really don't get the price increase for a shirt that should be less expensive to make than the previous $92 version. I have little doubt that this will fail and either the price will come down or it will disappear from the line. The VP who told me about these shirts some months back seemed to think it was a great idea. I told him that I thought the pricing was a mistake and that losing the pocket was also a mistake. But what do I know?


----------



## FLMike

CSG- Yes, I remember that you scooped the news of the new shirt and discontinuation of the old one, as well as the narrowing of the fit types...which would max out at Madison/Regular Fit for the new OCBD. 

And then that suspended blow-hard D#[email protected] tried to troll the thread by claiming the big BB change was eliminating all the slim fits to focus on the Traditional Fit shirts only (when in fact is was the exact opposite of what BB did). And then, when some folks didn't recognize his joking (trolling) tone, he refused to clarify he wasn't serious and just caused unnecessary discord/angst.....pretty typical of the effect he had on many Forum threads.

Speaking of, I wonder what he is up to these days.....and wonder when his suspension will expire. I have been told that he regularly bashes AAAC and even some specific members (myself included, I've been told) regularly on his blog. I'm sure that wouldn't stop him from returning, though, if given the chance.


----------



## Brigadier Cheape

FLCracka said:


> I bought the yellow uni during the recent double Corp discount day also, and wore it today for the first time. I don't really see the tangerine color, but I do like the shirt. The thing I notice most about it (other than the lack of a pocket) is how thin and flimsy the collar, placket, and cuffs feel, given the lack of interlining. I like it, but it kind of feels cheaper to me, as in, this should cost less to produce....not more!


I completely agree. I own the yellow and aqua uni stripe. The yellow is a great color. Overall, I'm pleased but they do feel flimsy compared to the old shirts and it would seem that they should cost less.


----------



## orange fury

weve posted repeatedly here about the lack of collar interlining and pocket on the new ocbds, but I haven't had a chance to see one in person- is there any difference in quality/thickness/feel of the fabric itself as compared to the $90 model? I didn't notice if this has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread.


----------



## FLMike

well, the the shirt definitely feels thinner on the collar, placket, and cuffs, but I think that's purely a function there being no interlining. The fabric itself is probably the same. That's my read, anyway.


----------



## crispyfresh

CSG said:


> It would be a great $50-60 shirt. I used to be a regular customer of BB from the late 70's until the very early 90's. After last year's post Xmas sale, I see nothing of theirs that really interests me anymore. It was a helluva company once upon a time.


From what ive been reading, almost every premium clothing brand has gone up in price over the last few years on all their products.


----------



## gamma68

FLCracka said:


> Speaking of, I wonder what he is up to these days.....and wonder when his suspension will expire. I have been told that he regularly bashes AAAC and even some specific members (myself included, I've been told) regularly on his blog. I'm sure that wouldn't stop him from returning, though, if given the chance.


If a suspended blowhard launches a blog and no one reads it, does it make a sound?


----------



## Charles Dana

gamma68 said:


> If a suspended blowhard launches a blog and no one reads it, does it make a sound?


This thread has suddenly developed an unexpected spur line. It would probably be a sound idea to get back to the main track; i.e., complaining about--I mean, discussing--the new/old BB OCBD. Yes?


----------



## gamma68

Charles Dana said:


> This thread has suddenly developed an unexpected spur line. It would probably be a sound idea to get back to the main track; i.e., complaining about--I mean, discussing--the new/old BB OCBD. Yes?


By all means...


----------



## orange fury

gamma68 said:


> If a suspended blowhard launches a blog and no one reads it, does it make a sound?


Lol I read it yesterday, I like how there's a whole section devoted to blasting AAAC


----------



## roman totale XVII

roman totale XVII said:


> A word on the yellow uni stripe - the yellow is much more of a tangerine color than a bold, bright canary yellow. A good thing in my book - a handsome shirt that doesn't wash you out.


Here's a comparison against a truly yellow OCBD. A vintage J Press.


----------



## KenCPollock

In the early 1960s, Brooks sold three OCBDs. One was the dacron/cotton green label made of the so-called "Brooksweave" material. It came with a pocket, but I thought it was terrible; it was hot, the material pilled after a while, and it did not get completely clean-looking, after a few washings, but wound up a bit grayish. I think it was made by Oxford Industries of Georgia. BB also sold its own make heavyweight red label OCBD, which had no need for a pocket, as most men wore it under a vest. Finally, it sold a lighter weight also "Makers" blue label pocketed OCBD, at least some of which were made by Troy Shirtmakers Guild. All 3 had unlined collars. 
As to that, I think it is a matter of personal preference: the unlined collar is thinner (flimsy?), softer, and more comfortable, with a more natural appearance. If it was a bit tight on your neck, the collar flared out. If it was a bit loose, the roll would be flat looking. The lined collar is much more bulky and the roll is "fixed," that is, it always looks the same.


----------



## Conservative87

Finally went to take a look at these shirts today. Unfortunately they didn't have my size in the store, so they ordered shirts from the warehouse to be shipped to my home. I have a Brooks card so it was 25% off. Cloth I feel is the same as the phased out versions. Brooks Blue and Brooks pink are the same shade as their previous counterparts. Brooks University Blue however looks much sharper. Can't tell if it's my imagination, but I'm almost certain they changed the shade of blue for their university stripe blue oxfords.


----------



## peterc

KenCPollock said:


> In the early 1960s, Brooks sold three OCBDs. One was the dacron/cotton green label made of the so-called "Brooksweave" material. It came with a pocket, but I thought it was terrible; it was hot, the material pilled after a while, and it did not get completely clean-looking, after a few washings, but wound up a bit grayish. I think it was made by Oxford Industries of Georgia. BB also sold its own make heavyweight red label OCBD, which had no need for a pocket, as most men wore it under a vest. Finally, it sold a lighter weight also "Makers" blue label pocketed OCBD, at least some of which were made by Troy Shirtmakers Guild. All 3 had unlined collars.
> 
> As to that, I think it is a matter of personal preference: the unlined collar is thinner (flimsy?), softer, and more comfortable, with a more natural appearance. If it was a bit tight on your neck, the collar flared out. If it was a bit loose, the roll would be flat looking. The lined collar is much more bulky and the roll is "fixed," that is, it always looks the same.


I enjoyed your post. Wish I could've shopped at BB in the early 60's.


----------



## orange fury

roman totale XVII said:


> Here's a comparison against a truly yellow OCBD. A vintage J Press.


I actually really like the shade of yellow of the old Brooks ocbds- I'm really enjoying the two I picked up during the sale. It's more "buttery" than the yellow PRL ocbd I've had for a while


----------



## FLMike

I do like this collar....


----------



## peterc

My local retro TV channel had the Woody Allen 1967 TV special on last night. William F. Buckley, Jr. was a guest. His shirt collar looked exactly like the one in the photo above. I would say BB knocked that issue out of the ballpark. Now, if I can get them in the trad fit and add a pocket, I am in for 4-5 of these.


----------



## Himself

*FLCracka:* indeed, nice collar!


----------



## Brigadier Cheape

FLCracka, I concur..


----------



## Himself

peterc said:


> My local retro TV channel had the Woody Allen 1967 TV special on last night. William F. Buckley, Jr. was a guest. His shirt collar looked exactly like the one in the photo above. I would say BB knocked that issue out of the ballpark. Now, if I can get them in the trad fit and add a pocket, I am in for 4-5 of these.


If I were to spend that kind of money on an OCBD, I'd probably go with a Michael Spencer which already has the pocket, slightly longer collar points, and a slightly slimmer fit which may be better for me. Same factory, AFAIK.

Has anyone bought the Malaysia-made BB? Still listed on their site for $69. The alpha-sized "346" ones seemed fine.

I care more about the shirt I'm getting for my money, vs. where it came from. The ones from Garland NC are "known good," but...


----------



## peterc

Himself said:


> If I were to spend that kind of money on an OCBD, I'd probably go with a Michael Spencer which already has the pocket, slightly longer collar points, and a slightly slimmer fit which may be better for me. Same factory, AFAIK.
> 
> Has anyone bought the Malaysia-made BB? Still listed on their site for $69. The alpha-sized "346" ones seemed fine.
> 
> I care more about the shirt I'm getting for my money, vs. where it came from. The ones from Garland NC are "known good," but...


Thanks for the Michael Spencer info. Will check that out.


----------



## LawyerBoy

Himself said:


> If I were to spend that kind of money on an OCBD, I'd probably go with a Michael Spencer which already has the pocket, slightly longer collar points, and a slightly slimmer fit which may be better for me. Same factory, AFAIK.
> 
> Has anyone bought the Malaysia-made BB? Still listed on their site for $69. The alpha-sized "346" ones seemed fine.
> 
> I care more about the shirt I'm getting for my money, vs. where it came from. The ones from Garland NC are "known good," but...


I have a few of the Malaysia-made, "regular finish" (in other words, NOT non-iron), and they are fine shirts. I starch them, and they look fine. The fabric is not what I would call luxurious, by any means. It appears to be the same fabric the non-iron shirts are made from, without all of the stiffness, brittleness, and heat that the non-iron finish itself imparts.


----------



## CSG

I had better luck with the non-iron Malaysian shirts than I did with the previous incarnation of the USA must iron shirts.


----------



## peterc

I must say, I liked the Michael Spencer offerings. To be able to customize individual sleeve lengths at that price point is darn nice. Probably will order some and report.


----------



## Charles Dana

peterc said:


> I must say, I liked the Michael Spencer offerings. To be able to customize individual sleeve lengths at that price point is darn nice.


...And don't forget that among other things, you can customize the size of the collar in quarter-inch increments.


----------



## dredey

Brooks Brothers new ocbd are nearly sold out of Milano cut. I was looking forward to grabbing an aqua striped.


----------



## peterc

Charles Dana said:


> ...And don't forget that among other things, you can customize the size of the collar in quarter-inch increments.


Yes, I saw that.


----------



## Brigadier Cheape

dredey said:


> Brooks Brothers new ocbd are nearly sold out of Milano cut. I was looking forward to grabbing an aqua striped.


This is a really nice shirt. Initially I thought it might be too similar to the blue uni stripe, but I find it to be a nice alternative.


----------



## dredey

Spoke with bb today they are still out of certain colors in Milano fit


----------



## Uncle Bill

When I was last in the RBC Plaza location in Toronto I asked the assistant store manager how the new OCBDs were doing. He said they could barely keep them in stock.


----------



## donquexada

My apologies if this has been addressed already. 

Could anyone who has been wearing these for a while comment on washing machine shrinkage? 

With the recently discontinued OCBDs, I know conventional wisdom here and elsewhere was to size up 1/2 in the neck and 1 inch in the sleeves to account for washing machine shrinkage. This also reflects my experience washing them in warm water, per the care label, and hanging them to dry. It did seem like shrinkage was gradual - maybe a quarter inch at first, but then the sleeves gradually crept up and the neck got tighter over many washings (which made my first OCBD unwearable after a few months since I made the mistake of buying my normal dress shirt size the first time around).

I'm curious to know if it's the same situation with these so I know what size to get. Thanks!


----------



## peterc

I always size up a half size in the neck. Wash in cold water, with like colours, and hang to dry. You can pull the neck band to shape afterwards if you want. Calvin Klein used to recommend this on the original 1970's - 1980's USA made jeans. I recall the info tag distinctly. Never had a problem with sleeves so never sized up there.


----------



## HerrDavid

Just saw this over at FBN: two new (green and red) and two (blue and brown).

Welcome developments both! (Still wish they had a pocket, though.)


----------



## CSG

Between the lack of a pocket and the price, even on sale, I'm still not a buyer. If they decide to add a pocket at some point and the shirts are in the $80-90 range (and they have my size), I'd reconsider. I do like that yellow uni stripe. Meanwhile, I have around 9 of their earlier version of the shirt in blue, pink, yellow, blue uni and red uni. Those will hold me for some time as 4 are in their wrappers for down the road.


----------



## andrewdc

i have two of the unfused/unlined brooks must iron oxfords. i launder them myself, sometimes in cold, sometimes in medium. i then put them in the dryer on low heat for about 10 minutes (gets rid of any stray lint), remove them damp, and let them hang dry. so far, the sleeves, cuffs and next have not shrunk. i really like these shirts. would be better with a pocket, but that isn't a deal-breaker for me.

worth noting that these shirts are currently available for 25% off - columbus day weekend sale.


----------



## rl1856

Looks like the Made in USA $140 OCBD is now available in a traditional fit, in white and blue only. Since this was one of my criticisms of the shirt, I may break down and try one. Thanks.


----------



## HOOT

Are the collar points 3.5" or 3.25" like on the previous version?


----------



## ksinc

A friend asked me about my shirts and where he could acquire such nice shirts knowing I am a frugal value shopper. I told him and he returned befuddled because his search turned up empty. I was shocked to find the best shirt value in the history of man is now a historic artifact. Thank God I bought enough to last thru the tribulation! Mercy for you sinners who whined and whined until brooks gave you what you begged for; at $140 no less. LOL


----------



## eagle2250

rl1856 said:


> Looks like the Made in USA $140 OCBD is now available in a traditional fit, in white and blue only. Since this was one of my criticisms of the shirt, I may break down and try one. Thanks.


Indeed, it appears that at least one of the many sartorial essentials of life has been met. What possible shirting needs can one have beyond the iconic white and blue OCBDs? There was a point during which a Traditional fit was not essential (or even desired), but things appear to have changed over time! LOL.


----------



## Hayek

donquexada said:


> My apologies if this has been addressed already.
> 
> Could anyone who has been wearing these for a while comment on washing machine shrinkage?
> 
> With the recently discontinued OCBDs, I know conventional wisdom here and elsewhere was to size up 1/2 in the neck and 1 inch in the sleeves to account for washing machine shrinkage. This also reflects my experience washing them in warm water, per the care label, and hanging them to dry. It did seem like shrinkage was gradual - maybe a quarter inch at first, but then the sleeves gradually crept up and the neck got tighter over many washings (which made my first OCBD unwearable after a few months since I made the mistake of buying my normal dress shirt size the first time around).
> 
> I'm curious to know if it's the same situation with these so I know what size to get. Thanks!


I have one of the new BB OCBDs in white, haven't noticed shrinkage. I'm a 15.5 neck which seems to work for me across all brands/fabric types and i haven't had any issues with my shirt.


----------



## straw sandals

I've only had mine laundered, but haven't noticed any shrinkage. They've stayed true to size.


----------



## Burban

Thanks to another site I frequent, I noticed a $100 off $300 (and $200 off $500) sale at Brooks Brothers. With the 25% off when you buy 3 promotion now applying to the new OCBDs, buying three drops the price to just over $71 per shirt. Code is BCSP17

As someone who refused to pay the $140 price on these, they're finally at a price I might bite on despite the lack of a pocket, as they're out of the old ones in my size.


----------



## Danny

If ever there was something that did not need to be messed with...the BB OCBD was it. Oof.


----------



## CSG

Danny said:


> If ever there was something that did not need to be messed with...the BB OCBD was it. Oof.


Where's the "like" button around here?


----------



## Adventure Wolf

As soon as I knew these existed, I purchased one.


----------



## katch

Burban said:


> Thanks to another site I frequent, I noticed a $100 off $300 (and $200 off $500) sale at Brooks Brothers. With the 25% off when you buy 3 promotion now applying to the new OCBDs, buying three drops the price to just over $71 per shirt. Code is BCSP17
> 
> As someone who refused to pay the $140 price on these, they're finally at a price I might bite on despite the lack of a pocket, as they're out of the old ones in my size.


plus an additional 15% off if you purchase a BB giftcard from giftcardgranny


----------



## Barnavelt

sjk said:


> Why is yellow uni stripe so rare in the first place? I have never gotten a good answer for this question.
> 
> And yes to the blazer stripes.


If you find the answer let the rest of us know. I have been looking for yellow uni stripe OCBDs for years to no avail. Mercers can make them of course but I can't afford those as nice as they are.


----------



## harmelba

I keep getting emails from BB with the BCSP17 code for 100 off of 300. When I try to add 3 of the new OCBD and checkout, it takes the discount for 25% off but now I cant use the BCSP17. Anyone else have this issue? Guess they caught that glitch.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## ScipioCaesar

Eh...worked for me this morning/earlier today.


----------



## harmelba

ScipioCaesar said:


> Eh...worked for me this morning/earlier today.


Can you do me a favor and try adding 3 shirts to your cart and see if a promo code option is available? For me when I do that I can only enter credit or gift card #. I do not have a spot to enter a promo code and have done so 100 times before on brooksbrothers.com

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## ScipioCaesar

Yep, still works. Or at least, the code is still available to be entered.

I did not log in to my account. Perhaps order it blindly?


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## Burban

I just placed an order for 3 OCBDs and was able to stack the 3/$225 and $100 off $300 offers using my regular non-corporate card. Sadly, my small law firm doesn't qualify for the corporate card.


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## harmelba

It does not work, I wish it did.

Here is shot








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## harmelba

Order discount looks good

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## harmelba

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## harmelba

Discount disappeared

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## DoubleDDownUnder

I was just able to make it work...got them almost half off. Thanks for the advice.


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## ocbdocd

Was able to get it to work with the new $100 of $300 code BBSTYLE - think I had to use a non corporate acct to enter a coupon code. Also doesn't let you stack corporate discount with 25% off 3 shirts. When to shoprunner site which is free for most amex cardholders to get additional $15 off for free shipping. Didn't have to actually use amex card. Also was able to place a second order using the same code. Thanks all.


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## ocbdocd

donquexada said:


> My apologies if this has been addressed already.
> 
> Could anyone who has been wearing these for a while comment on washing machine shrinkage?
> 
> With the recently discontinued OCBDs, I know conventional wisdom here and elsewhere was to size up 1/2 in the neck and 1 inch in the sleeves to account for washing machine shrinkage. This also reflects my experience washing them in warm water, per the care label, and hanging them to dry. It did seem like shrinkage was gradual - maybe a quarter inch at first, but then the sleeves gradually crept up and the neck got tighter over many washings (which made my first OCBD unwearable after a few months since I made the mistake of buying my normal dress shirt size the first time around).
> 
> I'm curious to know if it's the same situation with these so I know what size to get. Thanks!


I've been annoying everyone I know asking them if it's normal for people's necks to get bigger as they get older - like how they say your nose looks/gets bigger. I had to move up from 15.5 - 16. They measured me at 14.5 some years earlier. Haven't noticed in the sleeves though. Hadn't worn tie as much in a long time and realized I can't close the top button without going blue in the face.


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## Fading Fast

ocbdocd said:


> I've been annoying everyone I know asking them if it's normal for people's necks to get bigger as they get older - like how they say your nose looks/gets bigger. I had to move up from 15.5 - 16. They measured me at 14.5 some years earlier. Haven't noticed in the sleeves though. Hadn't worn tie as much in a long time and realized I can't close the top button without going blue in the face.


The nose thing (I am no expert) has something to do with the way the nose cartilage changes over time - mainly due to gravity pulling it I think, but also facial muscles weaken too. The result changes its shape a bit (it droops) and pushes out at the bridge a bit too (I think) which, along with the way skin sags / gets drawn with age, makes the nose look bigger.

I don't believe any similar thing happens with the neck. That said, most people tend to gain weight as they age - metabolism slows but food consumption might not - so most do experience a neck thickening, but for reasons completely different from the nose.

Also, if you work out, you can either build up your neck, by building up the neck muscles or reduce it by reducing your body fat overall.


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## Miket61

Whenever I’ve gained weight, my neck size went up. When I’ve lost weight it hasn’t reverted. 

I was a 16 1/2 for years, then a 17, now a 17 1/2. I’m working more aggressively on weight loss and maybe the cycle will change.


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## Truth&Rights

So my order of 3 Trad Fit sans-pocket shirts showed up today and I tried one on. 

Short story: I will exchanging these for the Madison Fit. 

I thought I could take the Trad Fit in my current size but the proportions are just off, particularly in the upper arm. Think flying squirrel syndrome. It was a different story when I wore a size 15 or 16. 

The fabric is thinner than old BB OCBDs but it's nothing to worry about IMHO. I compared one of my old shirts and it feels just a tad thinner, but it's still very much oxford cloth. The lack of pocket doesn't bother me - just means I will have to put my parking tickets and receipts elsewhere. Collar roll is spot on. 

Nice shirt overall. If the Madison fit works for me I'll be buying more of these. Not a bad deal at $100ish each considering what else is out there for USA made shirts. I miss the days where you could buy a USA made shirt for $50-$80 (barely 10 years ago) but I don't think those days are coming back.


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## Patrick06790

Miket61 said:


> Whenever I've gained weight, my neck size went up. When I've lost weight it hasn't reverted.
> 
> I was a 16 1/2 for years, then a 17, now a 17 1/2. I'm working more aggressively on weight loss and maybe the cycle will change.


Me too. Same neck sizes too. Depressing ain't it?

Don't think of it as gaining weight. Think of it as being prosperous.


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