# Favorite Fast Beethoven Symphony Recordings



## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I recent radio program I heard here
https://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2013/feb/19/speedy-beet/

opened my eyes to the controversy surrounding Beethoven's metronome markings. Apparently he marked his symphonies with precise notes indicating how fast he wanted his stuff played, and the tempos are crazy fast, so much so that conductors and musicians have systematically ignored them and assumed that his metronome was broken or perhaps there was a clerical error. Anyway, there are a number of recent recordings in which conductors have stuck to Beethoven's precise markings, with some surprising results. For one thing, some stuff allegedly sounds completely different. For another, the fast tempos are only possible with small orchestras, so that alone gives the music a different sound.

So, the question for y'all: are any of you familiar with these new, fast Beethoven recordings, and if so, which do you recommend? There are at least three I have been able to identify.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> I recent radio program I heard here
> https://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2013/feb/19/speedy-beet/
> 
> opened my eyes to the controversy surrounding Beethoven's metronome markings. Apparently he marked his symphonies with precise notes indicating how fast he wanted his stuff played, and the tempos are crazy fast, so much so that conductors and musicians have systematically ignored them and assumed that his metronome was broken or perhaps there was a clerical error. Anyway, there are a number of recent recordings in which conductors have stuck to Beethoven's precise markings, with some surprising results. For one thing, some stuff allegedly sounds completely different. For another, the fast tempos are only possible with small orchestras, so that alone gives the music a different sound.
> ...


I was not aware of this. I do hope that it does not apply to my favourite scherzo (second movement of the ninth symphony) as this is so deeply ingrained within my mind that any variance could be rather distressing.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> I was not aware of this. I do hope that it does not apply to my favourite scherzo (second movement of the ninth symphony) as this is so deeply ingrained within my mind that any variance could be rather distressing.


Believe me, I share your concern, as my reverence for Beethoven is religious. But that said, are you not intrigued by the possibility that you've never actually heard that symphony played the way its composer intended?

FYI, here's one of the versions that uses the "accurate" metronome markings:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sy...id=1362507507&sr=8-1&keywords=jarvi+beethoven

Oh, look what I just found, the above on Youtube. So let's listen and find out:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^ Listening to this is on my 'to-do' list. I shall try gain time tomorrow and report back. :smile: I'm just about to tell my partner all about it (she is a classically trained pianist and much more knowledgeable than I).


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

God, Shaver, it's good. Really good. Haven't gotten to the scherzo yet.

Do listen to that link in my original posting from the US radio program, "Radio Lab." It's fascinating, esp. the discussion of something called the "indifference point" as applied to the human perception of tempo. The argument is that there's a basic "tempo" that's a human tempo, where we are most comfortable. Beethoven intuited this and deliberately pushed his tempos (tempi?) faster than that point so as to make his music deliberately unsettling.

It will be a struggle to get work done while listening to this.



Shaver said:


> ^ Listening to this is on my 'to-do' list. I shall try gain time tomorrow and report back. :smile: I'm just about to tell my partner all about it (she is a classically trained pianist and much more knowledgeable than I).


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> God, Shaver, it's good. Really good. Haven't gotten to the scherzo yet.
> 
> Do listen to that link in my original posting from the US radio program, "Radio Lab." It's fascinating, esp. the discussion of something called the "indifference point" as applied to the human perception of tempo. The argument is that there's a basic "tempo" that's a human tempo, where we are most comfortable. Beethoven intuited this and deliberately pushed his tempos (tempi?) faster than that point so as to make his music deliberately unsettling.
> 
> It will be a struggle to get work done while listening to this.


Is this version actually that much faster? It sounds very natural to me, at any rate. Oh, hang on - the more I listen the more driving it is sounding. Yes, yes, I am feeling it now. It is almost a touch ahead of your heartbeat engendering a tension, a breathlessness, as if one is being swept forwards by the melody. What a lovely find, thank you tocqueville.

Allow me to repay the favour. If you wish to hear some truly incredible alternative versions of a few Beethoven classics then check the link below for further details: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...at-Are-You-Listening-To&p=1377855#post1377855






.
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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Is this version actually that much faster? It sounds very natural to me, at any rate. Oh, hang on - the more I listen the more driving it is sounding. Yes, yes, I am feeling it now. It is almost a touch ahead of your heartbeat engendering a tension, a breathlessness, as if one is being swept forwards by the melody. What a lovely find, thank you tocqueville.
> 
> Allow me to repay the favour. If you wish to hear some truly incredible alternative versions of a few Beethoven classics then check the link below for further details: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...at-Are-You-Listening-To&p=1377855#post1377855
> 
> ...


Yes, that's it: It's not radically faster, like playing a 33 disk at 48 on an old phonograph. But it's just "ahead of your heartbeat," giving it an altogether new feeling of tension and power. It must have been electrifying to be in the audience. I also really like the smaller orchestra.

By the way, in response to that other music thread, check out down Faudel's cover of Ne me quitte pas. Fantastic.


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## Stirling Newberry (Mar 4, 2013)

The issue of Beethoven's metronome markings will be debated for ages, however let me run down a brief summary.

The markings we have are generally from after the composition of the work in question, because he did not come into possession of a device until 1817. He was very enthusiastic about it, and resolved to provide markings for older works. So for works before 1817, these are revised thoughts from the original work. He provided markings for the first 8 symphonies himself. However for the 9th, the markings are not in his hand, and arguments about what was meant have occupied musical minds afterward.

The other part is that Beethoven was intending the marks for the performance style and practice of his own era. The later 19th century would revolutionize instruments, techniques, and aesthetics. Particularly important is the school surrounding Richard Wagner. As a result, works played in this later tradition are faster in the fast movements, and slower in the slow movements, that Beethoven noted. This means that many performances, steeped in later bowing and phrasing choices, adopt only the markings, without understanding that speed is merely one aspect of technique.

For much of this we owe pioneering efforts by Norrington, Gardiner, and Harnoncourt. Since this time even modern instruments have been drawn more to the MM markings, Jos van Immerseel for example, Zander another.


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