# Late Afternoon Wedding Attire



## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Morning Gents. First off, I am proposing to my lovely girlfriend in the upcoming weeks and I am confident she will accept. I have begun thinking about wedding attire for what I anticipate to be a late summer to early fall wedding of this year. I would imagine that the wedding ceremony will take place some time around the late afternoon at church, say, for example, 4:00 PM and carrying into the evening for the reception. 

After reading the wedding day primer on this website, I am considering going two routes: morning coat and striped trousers, most likely would have to all be bespoke or more the informal route of a dark suit. 

My question is, if a go the informal route, and many may suggest I don't, should the jacket be single vent, double vent, or no vent? Preference for dark navy vs oxford gray? Is black a definite "no-no"? Was envisioning something nice from Oxxford Clothes. 

Opinions, as always, are very much appreciated.


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## CAG (Jun 27, 2010)

First, congrats. Of your two options, I'd say a nice dark suit. You could wear black to your own wedding, but if you're going to get a nice suit, it might as well be one you'll wear regulary afterward (assuming, of course, that you don't get fat after getting married :icon_smile_big. 


I might get trampled here for saying this, but in 2012 America, you could absolutely wear a tux to a 4:00 wedding where the reception will go into the evening.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Get the nicest SB 2-button side-vent navy solid you can afford and you are set for life. 

As far as Orsini is concerned, you can wear that DJ starting at first light, just not in church, 'cuz it's party clothes.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Orsini said:


> Get the nicest SB 2-button side-vent navy solid you can afford and you are set for life.
> 
> As far as Orsini is concerned, you can wear that DJ starting at first light, just not in church, 'cuz it's party clothes.


Well that's not too fun. :confused2: I mean, I already have a Hickey Freeman solid navy, side vent, plaint front, suit that I just bought two months ago. What I am in need of is a new year round weight dark charcoal suit. Hmm. If I understand you, when you say DJ you mean dinner jacket. Are you referring to the suit, or the tuxedo, or which? If doable without being untasteful, I would much prefer to get a nice peak lapel tuxedo along the lines of Corneliani or RL Purple Label, and I seem to see those pop up a lot even on ebay.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Well that's not too fun. :confused2: I mean, I already have a Hickey Freeman solid navy, side vent, plaint front, suit that I just bought two months ago. What I am in need of is a new year round weight dark charcoal suit. Hmm. If I understand you, when you say DJ you mean dinner jacket. Are you referring to the suit, or the tuxedo, or which? If doable without being untasteful, I would much prefer to get a nice peak lapel tuxedo along the lines of Corneliani or RL Purple Label, and I seem to see those pop up a lot even on ebay.


Sound like you already have the solid lounge option covered. If you prefer, the char lounge would do just as well and this is certainly a good excuse to get one.

I was just joking about the start time, but another member of some note had preciously advised us that the DJ/tux/dinner suit was not appropriate for a house of worship so I no longer recommend it for this.


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

Random thoughts in response:

- What does the fiance want?

- I think -- just my own opinion -- that a wedding should either be black tie or not. In other words, the groom should not be in black tie unless the invitations request black tie.

- How likely are your guests to enjoy a black tie affair? If your typical guest is likely to own formal clothing, and if your typical guest enjoys dressing for formal affairs, then it seems a no-brainer, but then you probably wouldn't be asking the question because the answer would be obvious. Black tie means work and hassle and expense for many people. If it were my party, I would give some consideration to my guests in making this decision.

- Is black tie commensurate with the likely setting of the event? I've been to black tie requested affairs which were simply trying too hard to be something that they were not, and the result was a bit of a farce. On the other hand, the last black-tie wedding I attended was a three-day-long gig at the Willard in DC, and black tie was entirely proportionate to the rest of the over-the-top, hundred-fifty-thousand-dollar party. 

- The charcoal suit has the potential to be very good looking, very mature, very sober, very substantial, and you'll have the pleasure of wearing on a regular basis it in the future, and remembering being married in it.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

All very good advice. Thank you. As far as guests, it would be a smattering of everyone from attorneys to car salesman and everything in between. Probably not super formal. Maybe peak lapel charcoal is the way to go. How about groomsmen?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

While the morning coat is formal day wear, a peak lapel charcoal jacket can be worn as part of the semi-formal day ensemble known as the stroller. As it is the semi -formal ensemble for day wear, the stroller is the day's equivalent of evening's semi-formal ensemble,the tuxedo. Essentially, a stroller ensemble is similar to a morning coat ensemble except the stroller jacket has no tails, and with the stroller you have more choices of pants and jacket lapels. A stroller can be black or dark grey, peak lapel,(the most formal and elegant), or double breasted, or even notch lapel. There is great latitude in choosing vest, shirt, and tie.

A brief description of the stroller is at the bottom of this page:https://www.blacktieguide.com/Supplemental/Morning_Dress.htm

A longer article on formal and semi formal day weddings covering the morning coat and stroller.

Using the search engine here for "stroller" will turn up quite a few threads and pictures of variations. If you are not going with a morning coat, and you want something more special than a suit, consider the stroller.


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

If it were me -- and it's not -- and given the various facts of the situation, and if I wanted to acquire a new suit, I'd go for a suit that I would truly enjoy wearing over the next decade or so. I've made my love for charcoal suits repeatedly known, so I won't dwell on that. I think I'd go for a suit that's a bit more special than might otherwise be the case, and a suit that actually represents who I am as far as solidity and substance and maturity and sober good taste are concerned, and, as I already said, a suit that I knew I would enjoy wearing for a long time to come.

But that's just me.

Many happy returns of the day. (That's a joke, son, a joke!) Let us know how things proceed.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'm probably worrying about this a little early, but, hey, I have to figure this out sometime. From what I gather so far, while not traditionally appropriate, a wedding as late in the afternoon as what I have envisioned, if done outside of the church, could "allow" the use of a tuxedo. And if done in a church around the same time, i.e. 4:00 PM, a dark colored solid suit, preferably double vented, and of course two button would be sufficient. 

The deal with the stroller or morning coat is that I would most likely have to go custom or Eve because they seem to be super hard to find second hand. 

Additional concerns, if doing the suit option, do you recommend a vest or braces? If vest, double or single breasted? I assume it should match the suit, although I am thinking braces is probably the better route. 

If going suit, I will get a new charcoal-colored one. Not sure if I should go MTM Hickey, OTR Ralph Lauren, BB, or something different. Currently, I do not own a suit from Zegna, Oxxford, Corneliani, or Brioni, which I would all consider most likely only if they could be had at a discount.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Braces and a waistcoat (vest) are independent of one another and serve differing purposes. Braces hold up ones trousers, and are routinely worn under the vest. The vest will add formality to the suit, and permit you to remove your jacket at the reception. Without a vest, you should not EVER remove your jacket in the presence of women. 

Oxxford can be had NEW off the rack at a discount at many Last Call stores if you have one in your area, or simply go MTM with Oxxford. Their MTM runs in the $2k+ range. Brioni is priced significantly above Oxxford, even when had at a discount, and is only suitable for certain body types. In my opinion, Corneliani and Zegna are inferior options to Oxxford. The MTM program with Hickey is expensive, and you could probably find private bespoke for the same or less than the Hickey MTM.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Braces and a waistcoat (vest) are independent of one another and serve differing purposes. Braces hold up ones trousers, and are routinely worn under the vest. The vest will add formality to the suit, and permit you to remove your jacket at the reception. Without a vest, you should not EVER remove your jacket in the presence of women.


Very much correct that braces and a waistcoat are independent of one another, unless you sew tabs inside your waistcoat to button in to your trousers as braces would. But I've never seen that and I wouldn't recommend you do that. A waistcoat is best worn with braces, since a belt would cause a bulge under the bottom of the waistcoat. Braces also ensure that your trousers stay at a consistent height in relation to the bottom of your waistcoat so your shirt won't peak through.

But a waistcoat does not allow one to remove his jacket at a reception. If you're having a small formal dinner at home that's one thing, but your jacket should stay if you are outside your home.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Matt S said:


> Very much correct that braces and a waistcoat are independent of one another, unless you sew tabs inside your waistcoat to button in to your trousers as braces would. But I've never seen that and I wouldn't recommend you do that. A waistcoat is best worn with braces, since a belt would cause a bulge under the bottom of the waistcoat. Braces also ensure that your trousers stay at a consistent height in relation to the bottom of your waistcoat so your shirt won't peak through.
> 
> But a waistcoat does not allow one to remove his jacket at a reception. If you're having a small formal dinner at home that's one thing, but your jacket should stay if you are outside your home.


Tabs in the waistcoat also allow the waistcoat to stay in place and not 'ride up'. The BB formal vest has this, and I use it regularly.

It was my understanding that a waistcoat permitted the removal of one's jacket in the present of women. Have I misread?


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

I'll give you my opinions, which - in this forum - are apparently somewhere out on the fringe, even though - in the rest of the world - they're probably fairly standard:

1) Based on your post, you really have two choices (plus one other option). The two choices are morning coat or suit, the other option is suit for the ceremony, changing into tuxedo for the reception. The tuxedo is not an option for a 4:00 wedding, particularly in the late summer or early fall. This would look goofy, to my eye as well as to those of lots of people who don't even know what a "side vent" is.

2) Morning coat: it's your money, but I wouldn't do this unless I could rent ones that look decent. Whether that's possible is entirely a question of scouting out the local rental emporia and the logistics of your wedding party (where they are, how many, how organized they are, etc.). If you buy one, you'll likely never wear it again.

The idea of getting a bespoke suit that you're going to wear one time strikes me as bordering on insane, though that depends on how much money you want to spend and the relative importance of the various things to spend it on. On the latter (_i.e._ even if you want to spend a lot of money): weddings are dripping with expensive options (as are marriages, I suppose). For most people, there are several (if not dozens or scores) of optional improvements you could drop money on that are more important than the exact fit of the groom's outfit.

You _cannot_* expect the rest of the wedding party to buy bespoke (or even RTW) morning suits, so the cost is going to get huge very rapidly. You can, of course, go the route of buying one for yourself and having them rent ... though this begs the question: if the rentals are so horrible that you can't bear to wear one, what are you inflicting on your supposed best friends? Okay, on the the other hand: they're just supporting players. Back on the first hand: so are you, really - the only star at a wedding is the bride.

3) Suit: I wouldn't consider anything other than a basic business suit, with one limitation, which is avoid anything too overtly business-y, like pinstripes. Solid dark navy or grey would the obvious options, since you're leaning toward the formal side of things.

Go that way, and you don't need to buy anything, and (most likely) neither do your groomsmen. If you want to make this an occasion to buy a suit, go ahead, just buy one that's appropriate for the wedding and it will be another suit for your ordinary wardrobe thereafter.

As far as style and details (vents, etc.), there's nothing particularly special about it. Buy it the same way you'd buy any other suit. What style of suit you want is both (a) up to you and (b) the subject of a huge number of other discussions here which don't (and don't have to) have anything to do with weddings.

4) Wearing suits to the ceremony, then changing into tuxedos for an evening reception, is an option. It doesn't seem like a very good one to me. You'd be throwing a logistical challenge into what's typically a hectic and hard-to-hold-together event, and not for much of a purpose. The only way I'd really consider it is if you're doing one of those deals where there's a small, nearly family-only church wedding, followed by a big showy, sit-down dinner reception with some time in between. Otherwise, it's seems odd.

A flavor of the logistical challenges that arise if it's the typical ceremony, then reception shortly thereaft:
- you'll have a photographer wanting to take photos in between the ceremony and the reception;
- guests will be going directly from the ceremony to the reception;
- you'll have people looking for a receiving line that isn't there, because all the participants are wandering around town getting into hotel rooms to change clothes;
- will the bridesmaids also change? If they don't, will their outfits "fit" with what the groomsmen are wearing at the ceremony and also at the reception;
- the bride and bridesmaids will be standing around waiting for the groomsmen, unless the bridesmaids change clothes, in which case the bride will be standing around by herself (unless she changes, but now we're getting loopy).

4) In General: It's entirely customary to have the wedding party dress differently from the guests, though that's certainly not required. If you go the suit route, you'd presumably be dressed similarly to most guests.

You want the male members of the wedding party (groom, best man, ushers, bride's father) to dress similarly, though it's not necessary for them to dress exactly the same (and it's probably preferable for them not to).

5) Final Thought: You know, the bride (and her mother, sister, hired planner, second cousin and Freshman-year roommate) are going to want some input here. One thing to keep in mind is, as mentioned, the bride is the star, and the only star, at a wedding. The groom is a supporting player. The event isn't about your having an opportunity to show off. That doesn't mean you have to kowtow to every bridal demand (particularly if they involve powder-blue tailcoats), but you should fit your specifics into the general plan of the bride and her family.
______
*Okay, don't let the italics fool you, this is still just my opinion, though a stronger one.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Tabs in the waistcoat also allow the waistcoat to stay in place and not 'ride up'. The BB formal vest has this, and I use it regularly.


That's true, but braces are still necessary to old up the trousers.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Matt S said:


> That's true, but braces are still necessary to old up the trousers.


Agreed.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Just to clarify, I did not mean to imply that the OP should not have a black tie wedding if they so desire. I just wanted to point out that some observers feel that the marvelous tux is not appropriate for church. 

Tough to put together even a single good day formal rig, let alone several. We all know I am partial to the s_____, but you probably wont be able to wear either of these much afterwards. 

The Manton article is always a very nice reference for US wedding wardrobe etiquette (too bad a lot of the pictures are gone) and I believe it indicates that putting the wedding party in a combination of white and black tie and the guests in lounge suits is OK, so that might be a less expensive alternative. You could also do all lounge, with the groom looking very good in a navy sold lounge, white point collar fc shirt, wedding tie, boutonnière, ps, and black plaincaps. 

If you are going to take this opportunity to build your basic business rotation, then I recommend something other than solid black, like navy or char and I don't think any kind of pin or chalk stripe would be good for a wedding. 

For the lounge, I prefer side-vents generally. For the DJ, ventless is preferred but small side vents are OK, particularly on the ivory DJ. A one-button SBPL DJ is generally considered the most elegant with shawl and DBPL tied for second. I would not be caught dead in the notch, and neither should you. The suspenders/side tabs hold up the trousers and the vest/cummerbund covers the waistband so, unless with the DB where the waist covering is not required, you need both of these. BB has a real nice white tie vest that looks good with black tie. 

Removing the tuxedo jacket for anything other than a heroic rescue of a damsel in distress is frowned upon (make sure the AC is turned way up.) 

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Avoid matching with the bride.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Last pitch for a stroller, which is an ensemble, not a garment. 

While you probably would have to go with a special order to get a peak lapel jacket without satin lapels, you can easily wear a charcoal (or black) suit jacket, either double breasted, or with notch lapels. ( While Ronald Reagan 1981 inauguration was in a peak lapel stroller, in a number of the great pictures of Winston Churchill he is wearing a notch lapel stroller.

The pants need not be cashmere stripes, (although these are easily available from UK sites), black and white houndstooth or shephard's check, or even glen plaid are perfectly acceptable. The following are examples:


The two men lower left: 


Double breasted jacket with accessorizes: 

With wedding tie and homburg, the cuffs were only suggested as a "fashionable option" and never caught on:


Man in the center with notch lapels: 


Another DB: 


On the left: 



Finally, there is no need for your attendants to match your ensemble. In fact an exact match looks staged in rental attire. 

As I said, the last pitch for a stroller.


Happy New Year


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Legal_Eagle said:


> All very good advice. Thank you. As far as guests, it would be a smattering of everyone from attorneys to car salesman and everything in between. Probably not super formal. Maybe peak lapel charcoal is the way to go. How about groomsmen?


Peak lapel in charcoal or oxford grey would be excellent. It keeps it from looking like standard business attire, but it could still be worn outside the wedding for years to come.



Legal_Eagle said:


> Additional concerns, if doing the suit option, do you recommend a vest or braces? If vest, double or single breasted? I assume it should match the suit, although I am thinking braces is probably the better route.
> 
> If going suit, I will get a new charcoal-colored one. Not sure if I should go MTM Hickey, OTR Ralph Lauren, BB, or something different. Currently, I do not own a suit from Zegna, Oxxford, Corneliani, or Brioni, which I would all consider most likely only if they could be had at a discount.


You seem to assume that you can do one or the other. Wear both. Ideally all three piece suits should be worn with braces or, at the very least, adjustable side tabs. Many people opt for both brace buttons and side tabs on the waistband of a custom suit.

To get a double breasted waistcoat you'll most likely need something MTM or bespoke. See if you can spend a little more on yourself to get a well-fitting three piece suit. It's your special day too and you'll get much more use out of a three piece suit than your bride will get out of her dress! Harsh, but true.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Wow thank you everyone for the advice. Regarding braces/vest, I guess I was thinking of my more business attire route where I sometimes wear braces instead of a belt with a two-piece suit. I actually don't own a three piece, but I now understand that they are worn with braces underneath. 

As far as removing the jacket, no worries, I am always the one at friends' weddings dancing with my jacket on while my (ugh hum) friends are jumping around with open collars and no jacket and sometimes no vest. My father taught me at a very early age that a gentleman never removes his jacket.

To be clear, if I was going something super high end, (Brioni, Kiton, etc.) I would probably be buying at discount, ebay, Off Fith, Last Call, etc. These luxury brands have always intrigued me and I would not consider buying one if not for being such a special day in my life. My present suit wardrobe consists mostly of BB nested, BB 1818, HF, HSM GT, RL BL Italy. I used to work at BB back in HS and college, so half of my collection is probably BB. 

As far as the groomsmen, they would be renting. I anticipate picking up the tab for the rentals, but I am certainly not going to pay to buy them tailored suits. My question was more along the lines of, if I wear a dark peak lapel suit, should my groomsmen also have some kind of suit-like rental? I was not actually aware if tuxedo rental places even had less formal suits to rent.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Legal_Eagle said:


> ... if I wear a dark peak lapel suit, should my groomsmen also have some kind of suit-like rental?


I'd say in that case they could just wear dark suits.

No need to rent anything, unless one of them doesn't actually own a dark suit. In that case, you would face the task of either (a) finding a place that rents suits (I'm kind of thinking tuxedo shops don't rent them, but I've never asked, so what do I know), (b) identifying somebody from whom to borrow one or (c) convincing the poor fellow that now is about time for him to buy one.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Every grown man should own at least one suit.


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## DavidLeoThomas (Jan 18, 2010)

FWIW, these days you can buy a morning coat for pretty darn cheap, with rental places cutting down their inventory. That's what I did for my 3pm wedding, with the intention of getting it altered as needed but I got lucky and that even proved unnecessary. It's not going to be the finest garment you own, but you'll look great and it won't break the bank. Don't be scared off from the morning coat by the idea that it'll be a huge investment.

The suit will also be fine, of course, with the option of changing into the tux in the evening in either case.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

No need to rent for the groomsmen wearing regular lounge suits. Yes, we all operate under the mantra that every grown man should own one, but there are many reasons that a man either doesn't, or it isn't presentable anymore. 

That said, find your local 'suit store'. The one in the mall, or in a strip shopping center, many times in an urban neighborhood. This is the place that sells two suits, two shirts, two ties, two pairs of shoes for $199. Dress your men there. A friend did this for his destination wedding, and I, unfortunately, had to be clad in one of them. In short, we had men ranging from 6'4", 380lbs to 5'7" 160lbs guys (6 of us counting the groom), and everyone looked QUITE presentable. We purchased suits, shoes (wanted shoes to match), shirt, tie, PS, and tailoring, all for under $200. Not only is this nearly the cost of the tux rental, but you'd be doing them quite the service by having them in a tailor suit they can wear again. Be specific about what you want done. As the bride asked me to spearhead that venture, I was sure to specify 'shorten jacket sleeves to show 3/4" of shirt, make cuffs 1 3/4", leave trouser waist loose and sew buttons for braces.'

We did this 6 months ahead of time, and it all went off without a hitch.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

3/4" of shirt cuff showing? :crazy:


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> No need to rent for the groomsmen wearing regular lounge suits. Yes, we all operate under the mantra that every grown man should own one, but there are many reasons that a man either doesn't, or it isn't presentable anymore.
> 
> That said, find your local 'suit store'. The one in the mall, or in a strip shopping center, many times in an urban neighborhood. This is the place that sells two suits, two shirts, two ties, two pairs of shoes for $199. Dress your men there. A friend did this for his destination wedding, and I, unfortunately, had to be clad in one of them. In short, we had men ranging from 6'4", 380lbs to 5'7" 160lbs guys (6 of us counting the groom), and everyone looked QUITE presentable. We purchased suits, shoes (wanted shoes to match), shirt, tie, PS, and tailoring, all for under $200. Not only is this nearly the cost of the tux rental, but you'd be doing them quite the service by having them in a tailor suit they can wear again. Be specific about what you want done. As the bride asked me to spearhead that venture, I was sure to specify 'shorten jacket sleeves to show 3/4" of shirt, make cuffs 1 3/4", leave trouser waist loose and sew buttons for braces.'
> 
> We did this 6 months ahead of time, and it all went off without a hitch.


I recall being in a different location of the chain and seeing a 6'4 280lbs man trying on 3 button black suit separates in the "Tailored" line. I probably should have minded my own business, but I suggested he might look at the Signature or Executive models as they would fit him better. I was told , the bride picked the "Tailored" line and everyone had to match.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Jovan said:


> 3/4" of shirt cuff showing? :crazy:


Yes, Jovan, 3/4" of shirt cuff showing. #1, we were wearing cufflinks gifted to us by the groom. #2, the 'tailor' at the shop wasn't the most precise guy, and given this was to ensure linen showing in photos, I'd rather err on the side of too much than too little. Would I make this direction to my regular tailor, or one who has shown me the aptitude to accurately translate measurements? Absolutely not.

FWIW, in Dressing the Man, Mr. Flusser states 'no less than 1/2 inch of shirt cuff showing' (just read this over the weekend). I, personally, prefer in the 1/4"-3/4" window, with 5/8" being the norm for me.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Sounds like you are referring to JAB, lol. I will check into that. It always bothers me to pay $160 or so for a rental tux that is made entirely of man made fiber. I'd rather spend that on a nice pair of shoes at Nordstrom Rack, hell even a couple nice dress shirts that I will use for more than 5 hours. But I understand that some may not have a presentable suit. So if everyone already had either a solid charcoal, navy, or even black suit it work be acceptable for the groomsmen to mismatch? Mind you, I wouldn't a recommend a solid black suit as it is least practical. I am thinking most of my groomsmen do own a dark suit.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Legal_Eagle said:


> So if everyone already had either a solid charcoal, navy, or even black suit it work be acceptable for the groomsmen to mismatch?


Not only is it acceptable, it is preferable that they do not exactly match, as an exact match is a give away they are from a rental emporium.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

And how about ties? Should I give them as gifts and specify white shirt?


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> ...3/4" of shirt cuff showing...


This always looks like a lot to me, but I believe it is "normal" for BT.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Sounds like you are referring to JAB, lol. I will check into that. It always bothers me to pay $160 or so for a rental tux that is made entirely of man made fiber. I'd rather spend that on a nice pair of shoes at Nordstrom Rack, hell even a couple nice dress shirts that I will use for more than 5 hours. But I understand that some may not have a presentable suit. So if everyone already had either a solid charcoal, navy, or even black suit it work be acceptable for the groomsmen to mismatch? Mind you, I wouldn't a recommend a solid black suit as it is least practical. I am thinking most of my groomsmen do own a dark suit.


I wasn't referring to JAB if that is what you had implied. Yes, it would be ok for them to mismatch, as long as those suits FIT. In fact, if going this route, I'd ask everyone to get together for a drink and/or cigar, and have them wear their suits. Send them to the tailor where needed.



Legal_Eagle said:


> And how about ties? Should I give them as gifts and specify white shirt?


You could. If you had already budgeted $160-ish to rent their tux (which, in my circles, is abnormal for the groom to absorb this cost, but kudos to you being the gentleman), you could EASILY get them all MTM shirts via an online source, or simply buy complimentary (not matching) ties from an outlet for minimal cost.



Orsini said:


> This always looks like a lot to me, but I believe it is "normal" for BT.


BT?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> I wasn't referring to JAB if that is what you had implied.


Oops, I also thought you referred to JAB, that's why I posted my story that occurred at a JAB.



TheGreatTwizz said:


> You could. If you had already budgeted $160-ish to rent their tux (which, in my circles, is abnormal for the groom to absorb this cost, but kudos to you being the gentleman), you could EASILY get them all MTM shirts via an online source, or simply buy complimentary (not matching) ties from an outlet for minimal cost.


+1



TheGreatTwizz said:


> BT?


Black tie


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> I wasn't referring to JAB if that is what you had implied. Yes, it would be ok for them to mismatch, as long as those suits FIT. In fact, if going this route, I'd ask everyone to get together for a drink and/or cigar, and have them wear their suits. Send them to the tailor where needed.
> 
> You could. If you had already budgeted $160-ish to rent their tux (which, in my circles, is abnormal for the groom to absorb this cost, but kudos to you being the gentleman), you could EASILY get them all MTM shirts via an online source, or simply buy complimentary (not matching) ties from an outlet for minimal cost.
> 
> BT?


Good ideas. If everyone has a dark, non striped, non patterned suit, I could specify white forward point or spread collar dress shirts, then gift ties say from BB in the general family model (e.g. dark small prints or some kind of rep stripe). I could probably even get the white dress shirts, if necessary, though this would require getting measurements. Perhaps done at or near the bachelor party, shirt measurements followed by cocktails and a night of fun. I am not entirely positive that I would even require cufflinks of the groomsmen, though I would certainly wear them.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> ...BT?


 I just made that up...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> Not only is it acceptable, it is preferable that they do not exactly match, as an exact match is a give away they are from a rental emporium.


Truth. This matching outfits thing only came around a couple decades ago when the wedding attire and hire/rental shop industry realised they could turn a profit in misinforming everyone that they had to match exactly.



Legal_Eagle said:


> Good ideas. If everyone has a dark, non striped, non patterned suit, I could specify white forward point or spread collar dress shirts, then gift ties say from BB in the general family model (e.g. dark small prints or some kind of rep stripe). I could probably even get the white dress shirts, if necessary, though this would require getting measurements. Perhaps done at or near the bachelor party, shirt measurements followed by cocktails and a night of fun. I am not entirely positive that I would even require cufflinks of the groomsmen, though I would certainly wear them.


Consider wedding ties. Basically the same kind you'd wear with a morning coat rig. Traditionally, shepherd's check, houndstooth, and Glen plaid, but anything in the colour scheme of grey/black/white will do. Let them pick which one they want. As TGT said, complimentary, not matching As groomsmen, the only thing that should match exactly are your flowers -- put in the lapel hole, not _pinned on the lapel_, thank you! Here are some examples:

https://www.kentwang.com/ties/shepherds-check.html

https://www.kentwang.com/ties/glen-plaid.html

https://www.josbank.com/menswear/shop/Product_11001_10050_264072


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Good ideas. If everyone has a dark, non striped, non patterned suit, I could specify white forward point or spread collar dress shirts, then gift ties say from BB in the general family model (e.g. dark small prints or some kind of rep stripe). I could probably even get the white dress shirts, if necessary, though this would require getting measurements. Perhaps done at or near the bachelor party, shirt measurements followed by cocktails and a night of fun. I am not entirely positive that I would even require cufflinks of the groomsmen, though I would certainly wear them.


I would recommend to make the decision on cuff inks. Either have everyone in them, or just you. And specify what they can wear. You don't want someone to take license and show up wearing these:



Orsini said:


> I just made that up...


I'm sure you just started a new trend :tongue2:

Now that you mention it, I usually have my FC shirts made 1/4-1/2" longer.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> ...I'm sure you just started a new trend :tongue2:...


Oh, what I "made up" was the "BT."

I recall reading that the amount of linen shown is more for black tie than for the lounge suit but, of course, I can't find it now...


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Orsini said:


> Oh, what I "made up" was the "BT."


 BT-Big trick? Fooled me!


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

I may possibly just be confused about where the discussion is going, but I have to wonder:

Why on earth would you want to buy the guys in the wedding party cheap suits?

Just have them wear suits they already have. Specify dark, solid navy or grey. If it were me, I'd be okay with some being in navy and some being in grey. If all of your groomsmen already have an appropriate suit, you're done (at least with the suit part). You only have a problem if someone doesn't have the right suit, in which case there are a number of solutions, only one of which is buying the guy one out of your pocket.

For some perspective: consider how you would react if you were given a suit to wear in a wedding. I don't know about you, but for me, there's about an 80-90% chance it would be of a style and make such that I'd never wear it again ... not because there's anything terrible about the situation, but just because I have fairly specific "likes" when it comes to my clothes, and most items don't fit them. If they did, life would be simple, as I could just buy clothes randomly without knowing anything about them.

Easier details:
- I'd specify a white straight-collar shirt. I probably wouldn't worry about all the collars being of identical style beyond that.
- I like the idea of getting ties for them.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

OP checking in again. I wouldn't be buying suits for everyone. I was just thinking of my groomsmen and who I knew had solid dark suits. I know my two cousins have dark navy suits. I know I have a friend who I just saw wear a nice grey suit, and definitely would also be a groomsmen. If wearing suits, I guess I would prefer to be the only one wearing cufflinks, but I doubt there's a tasteful way that I could request that. I have no problem gifting some nice ties. If the suit thing gets to be a logistical nightmare, I believe I would resort back to rentals, cover at least most of the cost. 

I recall being in "Nantucket" casual wedding on the seaside a few years back. Groomsmen all wore Nantucket Reds, navy blazers with gold buttons, and were all gifted some kind of Vineyard Vines tie to wear with white shirts. It was different but kind of cool.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Eh, swallow your pride on the cufflinks. Your groomsmen should also be well turned out. Did you see the wedding ties I suggested?


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Morning Gents. First off, I am proposing to my lovely girlfriend in the upcoming weeks and I am confident she will accept. I have begun thinking about wedding attire for what I anticipate to be a late summer to early fall wedding of this year. I would imagine that the wedding ceremony will take place some time around the late afternoon at church, say, for example, 4:00 PM and carrying into the evening for the reception.
> 
> After reading the wedding day primer on this website, I am considering going two routes: morning coat and striped trousers, most likely would have to all be bespoke or more the informal route of a dark suit.
> 
> ...


As a fellow Michigander, I can say it's likely that it won't get dark until after well after 7 o'clock at that time of the year -- at least in the first of September. I don't see how you can do a dinner jacket. The morning dress would be appropriate, but it would require a change of outfits for the reception. Is this a religious ceremony?


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Was just looking at a dark charcoal Oxxford 1220 n2 two piece suit. Any opinions on this? I should probably go with a three piece but it seemed like a nice suit. FYI I'm a 41 short which is extremely hard to find. I can sometimes wear a 42 short.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Was just looking at a dark charcoal Oxxford 1220 n2 two piece suit. Any opinions on this? I should probably go with a three piece but it seemed like a nice suit. FYI I'm a 41 short which is extremely hard to find. I can sometimes wear a 42 short.


Great suit, you can wear it every anniversary when you take her out to the fanciest place around.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

If it were me now, I'd wear a navy double-vented suit. At my own wedding in 85, at the Registrar's Office in Kings Road, Chelsea I wore a mid-grey SB single-vented suit with solid light grey tie, and plain black Oxfords.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Sort of wondering if Oxxford can make a matching vest if I give them the tag numbers from an unworn, unfaded 1220 suit. My guess would be that the vest would have to be cut from the same bolt of fabric to ensure a match, which would not be possible, but perhaps someone else may have more knowledge on this idea.


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## PTB in San Diego (Jan 2, 2010)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Was just looking at a dark charcoal Oxxford 1220 n2 two piece suit. Any opinions on this? I should probably go with a three piece but it seemed like a nice suit. FYI I'm a 41 short which is extremely hard to find. I can sometimes wear a 42 short.


Bingo. Exactly correct, and you'll love owning it and wearing it for years to come.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Missed the boat on the Oxxford 1220 n2, which was on ebay. Not sure it would have worked anyway though, because if it fits anywhere as form fitting as a RL Black Label, it would be much too tight in the torso region (i.e. I am presently too chunky, but do need to lose about 20 lbs or so by wedding in October). 

I checked out some Samuelsohn and Southwick options in the MTM program at a couple local shops. Looks like it would land me in around the $1,600 range or so for a three piece in a 120s Class C fabric. I just came across this option on ebay as well.



I measured my best fitting suit and the measurements are remarkably spot on (inseam, sleeves, waist, chest, everything). I could always use it as an extra suit if I decided to go another route for the wedding but I have a few questions?

1) Is this a pretty old Southwick?
2) Is a 3/2 roll button a bad idea for a wedding (currently don't own one, and generally prefer a 2 button)?
3) How about the fact that it is ventless? I realize tuxedos are usually ventless, but I've never worn a ventless suit. 

Also saw this Kiton one, which, though at the polar opposite of the Southwick above, isn't a ton more than a MTM Samuelsohn:



Anyone know how Kitons fit? Comments on the fact that this appears to be a flapless pocket design?


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

One point on the Southwick: I wouldn't touch a suit with working buttons on the cuff unless I knew the sleeves are dead-on the right length for my arms. That's typically pretty unlikely. It does look like that seller is more likely than most to be accurate about measurements, so if the figure in the ad is just right for you, maybe it's a safe bet.

On the style, etc.: others may disagree, but to my mind a suit that's worn for a wedding is just a suit. Well, pretty much: I would steer away from a fabric that overtly screams "business," but plain grey doesn't do that. As for the rest of the details, I wouldn't distinguish between a suit worn in a wedding and a suit worn for any other purpose.

People more in the know than I can tell more about what that suit is, but it looks to me like it was MTM for the prior owner (hence the working buttons and slightly peculiar combination of design details). The cuffs are really, really narrow too, but that's probably not a huge concern.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

It is a special day. My wife still thinks my best suit is the one I wore to our wedding. Your bride will not be wearing a used ebay gown. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

arkirshner said:


> Your bride will not be wearing a used ebay gown.


Well, we don't know that for sure.

Though probably not this one:
https://weddingdressguy.com/original_ebay_ad/ebaylisting.html


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> It is a special day. My wife still thinks my best suit is the one I wore to our wedding. Your bride will not be wearing a used ebay gown. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.


100% in agreement.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Regarding the Southwick, the sleeves, if measured correctly, are completely spot on. I have short arms! I may get it just to have as an extra. It's down to $150 now. Is this an older Southwick, judging by the label? Care to guess on age. How much adjustment could be possible if the vest is just a little big. I have no idea if that will fit, since I have never purchased a 3 piece.

Also, the pants are probably about 1/2 inch up to 1 inch too long in inseam, depending upon the rise, so I am not sure if that would help with widening the cuff upon alteration. The jacket should fit dead on.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Well, the seller accepted my offer of $130. We shall see what I get, when I get it. I figured it was worth a shot. I can get any necessary tailoring done for about $30-50 with my local guy. 

May even try to get side tab adjustors installed and remove the belt loops. Any idea if that would leave a mark where the belt loops were?


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## jonesking (Feb 1, 2012)

congrat.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Like I said, I will see what I get when the suit arrives. Unless it is in truly impeccable condition with no signs of wear, I will indeed wear a different suit. I just thought that with the measurements being spot on with the rest of my tailor suits, assuming the measurements are taken correctly, it was a good option to at least add in a 3 piece to my rotation. And no, my bride-to-be did not buy a used gown. She is in fact looking for shoes now that would cost 7 times the suit I just snagged on e-bay. :eek2:


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## mayjefer (Feb 7, 2012)

Congratulation:smile:


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Suit has been shipped. Anyone care to coment on how old this Southwick might be? I'm also curious as to whether it is only half canvassed, though I supoosed I can wait until it arrives in the mail. 


In other events, the wedding date has been set for Oct 20, 2012. Reception sight is booked. Rehearsal dinner sight is booked. Working on the church. Things are progresing nicely, but adding up in cost. I'm still planning on the groomsmen donning navy or charcoal suits with white dress shirts, black shoes/belt, and I will gift them all some kind of small pattern tie (e.g. houndstooth). If I end up not liking the Southwick, I may bite the bullet and go with an Oxxford. Then comes the shoes. Been thinking about just doing some black AE Park Aves unless there is a better rec at that price point. 

Thanks for the advice, gents.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

arkirshner said:


> It is a special day. My wife still thinks my best suit is the one I wore to our wedding. Your bride will not be wearing a used ebay gown. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.


Are you still able to wear that suit? If yes, that is probably a really cool thing and I'll bet she remembers it as fondly as you do.


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## Starting Late (Apr 26, 2010)

Take a look at the AE Fifth Ave.'s, too. I can't believe I'm saying this because it makes me think I'm already dead, but they're more lively. The cap toe is longer, too, at least it looks that way.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

The only difference is the punch cap, no?

I agree though, they would be a little more lively for a wedding. You could even wear burgundy instead of black. Plus, they echo old wedding attire where men wore balmoral boots with a punch cap that went just over the ankle.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Yes, great idea. I see the 5th made a revival not long ago. They are slighly more interesting to me, as well. I have some black AE wingtips, McClain, I think, but I would not wear those. I would probably lean toward black though, since my closet is overrun with browns, shells, etc due to the fact that brown tends to be on sale more frequently than black.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

*Got the Southwick Suit in the mail today . . .*

The ebay Southwick suit arrived today. Here is the lowdown:

1. Sleeves are exactly on point, working buttonholes and all.
2. Pants are pretty much spot on. Perhaps could be a tad shorter, and maybe a tailor could do this and bring the cuffs back up to standard width. 
3. Vest appears to be right on as well, though it appears to fit on the trim side. I plan to lose some weight anyways and my boxy BB shirt did not help.
4. Ventless jacket fits nicely in the rear. This is my first ventless and I would have expected it to not be flattering with my somewhat larger rear end. :rolleyes2:
5. Jacket fits nicely in the chest and pretty good in shoulders. 
6. Jacket also, to my surprise, is full canvass!

Now the negatives:

The padding in the shoulders is a little more substantial than what I would normally like. Now, I am still not complaining for $130 as I can still surely work this into my rotation as is. However, I was wondering if anyone knew if a master tailor could reduce the padding in a jacket? I'm guessing it's not easily done, cheap, or perhaps even worth it.

In addition, anyone have luck on converting double pleat pants to single pleat or even plain front? I would be okay putting $75-100 worth of tailoring into this suit, if necessary. It seems to be very well made and in excellent condition, and, while I can tell it is a few years old, it really shows no signs of wear. It is definitely a nice bespoke or MTM suit.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Not worth it.

If anything with the pleats, convert them to forward facing if they are reverse. Pleats, contrary to the opinions held by a few on the Trad Forum, are not the end of the world, especially with a suit where you'll have the jacket buttoned most of the time anyway.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Great idea. They are reverse pleats. Never thought of having pleats converted to forward-facing. My fiancee saw the suit on me, and actually thought it looked pretty good, though reminded me I need to a lose a little weight (pants were a tad tight). 

Now that the wedding ceremony wil take place closer to 2:00 pm, I am pretty set on the charcoal suit idea. I will most likely get something else to wear though, with peak lapels. The samuelsohn/southwick, custom option is probably a little out of my range, though. I know a good tailor that does H. Freeman MTM, for I believe around $700 or so. Anyone have any luck with that line? I realize it is different than Hickey Freeman. Also, if going double vent, peak lapel, and maybe 3 piece, what is the consensus on ticket pockets? Yay or nay for a wedding? 

Also, if someone can recommend a nice wedding tie for the charcoal suit, that would be great. Also need to get some nice braces. And a trimmer fitting, nice french cuff white shirt, though I could probably wear my Ike Behar La Confianza. 

I'm going with the AE 5th Ave, provided that the last fits my feet well.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Ticket pockets on a jacket are a country, not city, feature. Pass on them, especially if you are getting a SB peak lapel 3 piece, which is the most formal day suit.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

I agree. I sort of picture the ticket pocket going with tweed and hacking pockets, which is whole other direction from the suit you're talking about, in a metaphorical sense (if not a geographic one, as they both point toward Great Britain at least). Consider: what would, say, a tuxedo with a ticket pocket look like? Pretty weird (though I realize I am probably now inspiring someone to locate and post a photo of Edward VIII or Cary Grant wearing one).

Its most common purpose lately, I think, is an attempt to make the suit look custom made. Whether that works, or is a good thing even if it does, is another subject.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> Ticket pockets on a jacket are a country, not city, feature. Pass on them, especially if you are getting a SB peak lapel 3 piece, which is the most formal day suit.


WHAAAT?!


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Why I can understand the logic behind the ticket pocket craze to indicate something is custom made, I had also thought it was a sort of british or European thing. A majority of all RLPL suits I see seem to have them. I also acknowledge and cannot recall ever seeing a tuxedo with a ticket pocket, and agree it would likely look strange. That being said, I thought that a ticket pocket, for practical purposes, was actually designed to hold an opera/theater ticket. If that is the case, it seems as though it might actually have its most functional use on a tuxedo, no? 

At any rate, how is the H Freeman Sons MTM program for a more affordable option?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Why I can understand the logic behind the ticket pocket craze to indicate something is custom made, I had also thought it was a sort of british or European thing. A majority of all RLPL suits I see seem to have them. I also acknowledge and cannot recall ever seeing a tuxedo with a ticket pocket, and agree it would likely look strange. That being said, I thought that a ticket pocket, for practical purposes, was actually designed to hold an opera/theater ticket. If that is the case, it seems as though it might actually have its most functional use on a tuxedo, no?


There are two stories, first, the ticket pocket came into being in the mid 1800s to hold railroad tickets, second, it is also called a "cash pocket" and came into being to hold tip money to give to gate or game keepers while the wearer was hunting. While some may use a cummerbund for tickets, evening wear has inside pockets for such incidentals.



Legal_Eagle said:


> At any rate, how is the H Freeman Sons MTM program for a more affordable option?


Excellent choice, at least it was a few years ago. The company was sold and I would want to hear from someone who commissioned one in the last year. The best place to get H Freeman was through LS in NYC. Actually if you called Izzy at LS, (who may of us have purchased clothes from), and asked him about the current program you would get a straight answer.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Great information arkirshner. Thank you, sir! I just visited my tailor who does H Freman MTM. He is running 20% this month and next. I was trying to get a sense on price and selected a dark charcoal 945 category Super 100s wool. Peak lapel, side vent, with vest, it would total around $1,250 minus 20 percent, and he would throw in pick stitching, working cuffs and/or side tab adjustors on the pants if I wanted. I can check with Izzy too. I just always like to support my local guy when possible, but I'm not positive that's a good deal (i.e. around $1,000, all said and done). 

He did sway me away from a ticket pocket, though, based solely upon his opinion. He's a funny guy. :biggrin: He said that the suit is half canvas, but I would want to be 100 percent on this first. He also thinks pleats look best on me, though I might lean towards a single pleat. 

I did have a question on vests. What is the consensus on whether to have lapels (and which lapels, peak or notch) when doing a vest with a pleaked lapel suit (side vented)? My tailor stated that with peaked lapels, it looks very nice if you happen to remove your jacket while at the office, seated, for example.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Great information arkirshner. Thank you, sir! I just visited my tailor who does H Freman MTM. He is running 20% this month and next. I was trying to get a sense on price and selected a dark charcoal 945 category Super 100s wool. Peak lapel, side vent, with vest, it would total around $1,250 minus 20 percent, and he would throw in pick stitching, working cuffs and/or side tab adjustors on the pants if I wanted. I can check with Izzy too. I just always like to support my local guy when possible, but I'm not positive that's a good deal (i.e. around $1,000, all said and done).
> 
> He did sway me away from a ticket pocket, though, based solely upon his opinion. He's a funny guy. :biggrin: He said that the suit is half canvas, but I would want to be 100 percent on this first. He also thinks pleats look best on me, though I might lean towards a single pleat.


Stay with your local tailor. He can fit you and he can fix anything that may need fixing. The only reason to call Izy would have been to ask about the current health of H. Freeman MTM. It used to be full canvas but today that would cost far more the 1K for a 3 piece, especially with the details you are getting. In any event, the most important factor is fit and you should do better with a local fitter. The second most important factor is fabric and it is good you are not falling victim to the highest super number craze. The heavier the fabric the better it will drape. A 3 piece half canvas that fits, made of fabric you like, for 1K is very good value.



Legal_Eagle said:


> I did have a question on vests. What is the consensus on whether to have lapels (and which lapels, peak or notch) when doing a vest with a pleaked lapel suit (side vented)? My tailor stated that with peaked lapels, it looks very nice if you happen to remove your jacket while at the office, seated, for example.


It seems that the most common vest worn with a SB peak lapel suit,(bespoke and RTW) was the 6 button SB no lapel.

On the other hand, a number of fastidious dressers chose DB vests with bespoke suits.

An example of a DB vest with grey peak lapel suit, albeit a lighter grey than yours, is that of Fred Astaire in Easter Parade:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FW86_jO7k_A/SCIfw-jysBI/AAAAAAAAWyw/o0eEqVk-4sg/s400/8.gif I'm sorry the angle does not show exctly how much of the vest is visible when the jacket is buttoned.

and

giving a better look at the vest itself.

A diagram version of a third choice, the 6 button DB is on the right.

Either the 6 button SB or 6 or 8 button DB vest is an excellent choice.

You will also have a choice of jetted pockets, the more formal choice as shown in the first illustration, or patch pockets, as in Easter Parade, or patch pockets that can be tucked inside to give the same look as jetted pockets. It should be noted that the choice of vest does not depend on the pockets.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Thanks again arkirshner! Looks intersting. I had not considered a double breasted waist coat. You think it would look good on a simple solid charcoal suit with peak lapels, versus, for example, a navy chalk stripe? Also, anyone else on board with the idea of doing side tab adjusters (e.g. D-rings) on the pants in lieu of belt loops? Is the consensus that they look bes ton pleated pants? I cannot recall seeing them on flat front pants. Then I need to decide on single pleat, double reverse, or forward pleats. I think I would like to do cuffs.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Side tabs are fine on pleated or plain front. You may also consider the button or buckle type.

Always get forward facing if you get pleats. Always.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Thanks again arkirshner! Looks intersting. I had not considered a double breasted waist coat. You think it would look good on a simple solid charcoal suit with peak lapels, versus, for example, a navy chalk stripe? Also, anyone else on board with the idea of doing side tab adjusters (e.g. D-rings) on the pants in lieu of belt loops? Is the consensus that they look bes ton pleated pants? I cannot recall seeing them on flat front pants. Then I need to decide on single pleat, double reverse, or forward pleats. I think I would like to do cuffs.


Side tabs are better on a suit than belt loops. Tom Ford does them on flat-front trousers. I think single pleats are best, and they have to be forward-facing.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

One particularly useful thing about side adjusters is, because they eliminate the need for a belt, there is no belt buckle underneath the vest, and thus no bulge beneath the vest. If you do not choose to wear suspenders than tab pants are a great idea.

The choice of a vest style in part depends not only on your sense of aesthetics but also on your physique. If you are by nature wide, then a double breasted vest may not be the best choice. On the other hand if you are thin then a DB can work no matter if you are tall or short. Besides the Fred Astaire example above there is also the much taller Prince William in a DB vest: https://www.bandwidthbiz.com/wp-con...ploads201011kate-middleton-e1290609428908.jpg Of course you will probably have your jacket buttoned and much of this will be moot. I am a technological Luddite and cannot post pictures scanned from books, but there are a number of examples of dark grey SB peak lapel jackets with DB vests, (of course, there are more examples of SB vests). There are pictures of Anthony Eden in both styles, and suffice it to say that both style vests work. I suggested you consider a DB vest, not because it is in anyway better, but only because they are rare and the only way to get one these days is to have one made. Given that you are having your suit made you will have the opportunity to own such a rara avis.

Pleats have long been the choice of the best dressed men because they allow the hips of the pants to expand when sitting, enable the pants to hang straight when standing, and allow a man to put his hand in his pocket without distorting the line of the leg. If you are wide, than double reverse pleats are best, while if you are trim than double forward pleats are best. Your instincts are correct, on this side of the Atlantic, with a 3 piece peak lapel suit, cuffs are preferable.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> Pleats have long been the choice of the best dressed men because they allow the hips of the pants to expand when sitting, enable the pants to hang straight when standing, and allow a man to put his hand in his pocket without distorting the line of the leg. If you are wide, than double reverse pleats are best, while if you are trim than double forward pleats are best. Your instincts are correct, on this side of the Atlantic, with a 3 piece peak lapel suit, cuffs are preferable.


I find that forward pleats work much better on larger men, provided they fit well. But OTR they don't work so well because they spread open. But on reverse pleats the pleats point outward, giving the impression of breadth. Look at Alfred Hitchcock to see how forward pleats can be effective on a larger man.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Here is my physique:

5'8"ish 187 lbs
Pants: 36"/ 30.5 inseam
Jacket: usually 41s, (length, BOC 29.75 to 30.25 inches), 23 inch sleeves
Shirt: 15.5/32

I am on the heavy side right now. I plan to lose about 25 pounds or so before my wedding, as I have usually been about a 32-33 inch waist, 40s up until about 1 year ago. This is why my tailor would be doing final measurements about 2 months before my October 20, 2012 wedding and then placing the order.

Would a double breasted vest work on my physique?

How about single forward pleated, trousers with cuffs? I see that my RL BL Made in Italy suit has forward facing double pleats, which I never noticed before.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Would a double breasted vest work on my physique?


One can only guess. I suggest you go to the biggest prom/wedding rental emporiums and try on a lot of different vests. Yes, the fabric will be terrible and the designs ridiculous, but you are not going to buy anything. Just try on single and double breasted vests to get a general look at how the forms look on you and thank them for their time. If you are feeling generous, give the SA a gift card for a lunch.



Legal_Eagle said:


> How about single forward pleated, trousers with cuffs? I see that my RL BL Made in Italy suit has forward facing double pleats, which I never noticed before.


Again, go to a store with a large inventory and try on pants with various pleat (or no pleat) configurations. Just see what looks and feels best. Here you can just try on pants from the racks and not even take up a SA's time. Trust your instincts, you will know what is best.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Brilliant!!


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## Marcolina (Feb 15, 2012)

Single vent for Jacket and gray oxford you would be look stunning.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

I have been thinking about that double-breasted, 6 button, peaked lapel vest seen in the above attached diagram and Prince William photo. Wondering if it would be over the top. That exact style is not in the H. Freeman book, but my tailor said he could make it happen. 

Also, I thought I would do double vent on the coat.

As for pleats, I tried some single-pleated pants at MWH last night. Apart from the inferior quality of the suits, they seemed to pull hard and sit wide open at the pleat. Couldn't tell if that was because they were a tad small (35.5, what an odd size) or not. 

MWH did not have any rental or other vests that were double breasted. 

Today, I have on some HSM Golden Trumpeter L. Piana double reverse pleated pants (with suit coat) that do look rather smashing. I shall have to try on my double forward pleat RLBL suit pants again tonight.

Decisions, decisions . . .


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## JWM1960 (Jan 23, 2009)

I like the stroller idea. Purchase a nice oxford gray suit, peak lapels and DB if you prefer. That will be a suit that you can wear for a long time. Now purchase the gray/black trousers worn with a morning rig (no cuffs, no belt loops.) Now add a buff or dove gray vest and top it off with a light blue shirt that has white french cuffs and white collar, and you have a stroller. ...and you have useable pieces for the future. The jacket will be re-coupled with the matching trousers and you will have a nice oxford gray suit. The striped or houndstooth stroller trousers can be worn in the evening with a black shirt and sports jacket for a dressy night clubby look, The shirt can be worn with a suit for business. Even the right silver/black wedding tie looks good with a business suit. The vest is probably the piece that you will not use except when a stroller is needed. Wear your best black captoe bals and you will have a proper stroller and be looking grand for a day wedding. It is proper to wear a stroller to a reception that follows a day wedding, but you could also lose the vest and slip into the matching oxford gray suit pants and quickly look grand for the night time reception.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Legal_Eagle said:


> I have been thinking about that double-breasted, 6 button, peaked lapel vest seen in the above attached diagram and Prince William photo. Wondering if it would be over the top. That exact style is not in the H. Freeman book, but my tailor said he could make it happen.
> 
> Also, I thought I would do double vent on the coat.
> 
> ...


Please, exercise caution when having ANY deviation from the book with H.Freeman MTM. They aren't the best at following instructions.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

I was afraid of that. I mean, they only have something like 20 vest options. I should probably opt for one of the double breasted options they offer. 

Let me ask this - because I appreciate the wealth of information this forum truly is - with vests that have a back, I assume that the standard is to have the bemberg lining comprise of the back, and not actually wool suit fabric, correct? Not sure I have seen the latter, but I assume the former is the norm, if it is, due to cost and to make the suit cooler. 

I tried on my forward double pleat, and while they are ever-so slightly tight, I can easily tell they look different than all the rest of my double-pleat suit pants and odd trousers. Mind you, it is a off the rack RLBL, but they open just a tad to sort of make my hips look rounder than they are, sort of like a pumpkin effect, sort of. They are also made of wool flannel material, too, though.

I am now leaning towards either a very-well fitted pair of plain front, or, gasp, double reverse pleats with D-Ring adjustors, no loops. Now, I see there is something in the Freeman book called "Single Kiss Pleats" which seem to reverse. 

I had slightly toyed with the idea of doing a double-breasted coat, and ditching the vest. I do not own a double-breasted suit coat, but they do look decent on me, even though I am slightly shorter than average. I just have problems with the fact that it always needs to be buttoned.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

While I am somewhat fond of the morning dress, the reason I am not doing a morning coat or stroller is simple: I don't want my groomsmen to rent cheap tuxes/formal attire. If it is important for the groom to "follow suit" with is gromsmen, then they would have to purchase morning attire. That simply is not going to happen. I have already confirmed that they all have either solid charcoal and/or solid navy suits, save but one person, who wil gladly purchase a new suit that he can wear in the future. I may even end up with 3 charcoal and 3 navy suited groomsmen.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Legal_Eagle said:


> While I am somewhat fond of the morning dress, the reason I am not doing a morning coat or stroller is simple: I don't want my groomsmen to rent cheap tuxes/formal attire. If it is important for the groom to "follow suit" with is gromsmen, then they would have to purchase morning attire. That simply is not going to happen. I have already confirmed that they all have either solid charcoal and/or solid navy suits, save but one person, who wil gladly purchase a new suit that he can wear in the future. I may even end up with 3 charcoal and 3 navy suited groomsmen.


If you really want to wear a morning coat and at the same time not discomfort your attendants, you might consider that while you wear a morning coat they can wear stroller ensembles by pairing the jacket of their solid gray suits with checked or plaid odd pants. Even a black suit could be useful because a black suit jacket could also be used. Even J Bank has pants that can work and we all know that you will be able to pick something like these up for less than $75 https://www.josbank.com/menswear/shop/Product_11001_10050_100040


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Found a men's shop that does HSM MTM at just about the same price point, if not a tad less than my tailor does the H. Freeman. Between the two MTM programs, I would imagine H Freeman is a little better, but I could be wrong. The other men's shop has been in business for decades, so I would imagine they are good at measuring. 

Anyone care to comment, HSM MTM vs H. Freeman?

P.S. The men's shop also offers Samuelsohn and Jack Victor, though Samuelsohn pushes the 3 piece to the $1,600 mark before the store's 25-30% discout that they offer twice annually.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Sameulson makes a garment that is a class above the others. If one amortizes the difference in cost over the lifetime of the suit, which can be decades, the difference would be negligible.

Still, the overriding factor must be fit. I would ask those who have used the MTM programs at the shop and at your tailor's. Sometimes, and this seems to be one of those times, anecdotal evidence of personal experiences is the best evidence there is.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Thanks again for the advice. How do people feel about collar bar shirts? Would such a shirt, white, french cuff, be inappropriate for a wedding? Too much attention drawn? I was looking at the BB Luxury slim fit version. Was thinking I could play it up and do three piece, pocket watch (perhaps) and collar bar shirt.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

An update on my wedding planning. I ordered a Samuelsohn MTM 3 piece suit consisting of: 2B, PL, side vent jacket; double fwd pleat pants with side ring adjusters, no belt loops; and double breasted peak lapel vest. I also ordered second pair of plain front, belt loop pants for the hell of it. The material is a dark charcoal, faint, mini herringbone 120s. The lining is deep eggplant with small paisleys (jacket and vest), which compliments bridesmaid dresses. I also went with pick stitching, deep brown horn buttons (look black), and surgeon cuffs. 

For shirt, I will either do MTM collar-pin or the BB luxury, slim fit, collar pin shirt available online. I will go with a pique or solid white, since I won't do a herringone shirt with my herringbone suit. 

Tie, I will select a small dot pattern, horizontally arranged, with either midnight blue background or black.

Shoes, AE 5th Street bal boots (or SF Tramezza cap toes).

A couple remaining questions: 

1.) My bride really insists on incorporating color into grooms ties, should I go with eggplant small pattern ties, all different, all the same amongst the groomsmen? Or should I have them do a similar dark, small pattern or dot tie as me, all same or different amongst the groomsmen? I wanted no one to have the same exact tie as me. I will gift them the ties and maybe a silver tie bar. 

2) What is the final consensus on having my groomsmen select either a dark navy or dark charcoal, solid suit, knowing that some will wear one and some the other (i.e. having two colors of suits at wedding)? They will all wear white shirts and the tie I give them.

3) I want to wear the fwd pleat pants and with cuffs, is that formal enough for me? I know no cuffs is technically more formal but I am not wearing a tuxedo. 

thanks


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Go with a royal oxford shirt, I'd say.

1) This is an area where I feel you should put your foot down if you're uncomfortable with it. There's no need to have one colour coordinating everywhere at a wedding, it actually can look tacky. If they want their ties to stay in place, get something like The Tie Thing. Tie bars are a little too casual for a wedding.

2) Nothing wrong at all with this. It's a wedding, not a Tarantino movie. There's no need for all the men to wear the exact same thing and no historical precedent for it. Even when morning attire was commonly worn for weddings, the groom, groomsmen, and father of the bride all had their personal variations on it. Some wore a black coat, others dark grey. Dove or buff waistcoat, houndstooth/wedding stripe/Glen plaid trousers, different neckwear choices, etc. I think you get my point.

3) Perfectly acceptable.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

As awlays, thank you Jovan. Curious as to your opininion on the collar pin idea. I was going to do the one that looks like a barbell and is threaded on one end, in silver.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You can do that if you wish. Some may think it's too over the top, but EVERYTHING out of the ordinary is now.


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## sheldon (Nov 16, 2011)

DInner jackets in off-white or ivory.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

arkirshner said:


> Not only is it acceptable, it is preferable that they do not exactly match, as an exact match is a give away they are from a rental emporium.


Exactly right, though I disdain black suits enough to refrain from including them in the elevated preferable (as opposed to acceptable) category. ;-) Seriously though, this whole matchy-matchy stuff is an unfortuate plague resulting from women imposing their norms (innocently and with good intentions since that is all they know) on men who are completely unaware of the norms that should apply to them.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Legal_Eagle said:


> The lining is deep eggplant with small paisleys (jacket and vest), which compliments bridesmaid dresses.


Brilliant, showing respect for her color choice while keeping it under wraps.



Legal_Eagle said:


> 1.) My bride really insists on incorporating color into grooms ties, should I go with eggplant small pattern ties, all different, all the same amongst the groomsmen? Or should I have them do a similar dark, small pattern or dot tie as me, all same or different amongst the groomsmen? I wanted no one to have the same exact tie as me. I will gift them the ties and maybe a silver tie bar.


All marriages have their power struggles, the worst case is where both parties insist on always "winning" and the marriage fails. Nearly as bad is where one party always gives in and spends years building up resentment. 
The best case is where the parties realize they are both human, realize that at the beginning of a marriage power struggles will come up, both are sufficiently conscious to recognize a power struggle when one comes up, and when one comes up,both are sufficiently enlightened to be able to laugh.

I am not a psychologist, have never played one on TV, and did not stay in a Holiday Inn last night. Nevertheless, and for what its worth, IMO it seem that she has not tried to dictate to you or your attendants, I know you have read enough threads here to recognize it when a bride insists on dictating every detail. It seems to me that she does have a preference on the minor detail of your attendants tie color, which perhaps arises from an unexpressed desire to please her attendants who she thinks expect some color coordination, (amateur psychology at its best or worst). IMO the best course is to accommodate her request. Unmatching ties with eggplant, either as a ground color, or equal in the pattern eg. a grey and eggplant houndstooth, will meet the real test, which to avoid twenty years hence viewing the wedding pictures with embarrassment. You might consider finding 20 such ties you like and asking her which ones among them she likes.



Legal_Eagle said:


> 2) What is the final consensus on having my groomsmen select either a dark navy or dark charcoal, solid suit, knowing that some will wear one and some the other (i.e. having two colors of suits at wedding)? They will all wear white shirts and the tie I give them.


Excellent, the consideration you show in not forcing your attendants to rent or buy something they do not want will be appreciated. ( It being a given that every man should have a dark grey or navy suit).



Legal_Eagle said:


> 3) I want to wear the fwd pleat pants and with cuffs, is that formal enough for me? I know no cuffs is technically more formal but I am not wearing a tuxedo.


Formal and semi formal pants have no cuffs, on the other hand the least formal pants, jeans, also have no cuffs. On this side of the pond, the ffor what is variously named lounge suit, day suit, or business suit, I believe the majority informed opinion is that cuffs are preferable.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice gents! I'm going to work on my bride regarding the ties. I will slightly cave if it's going to start our marriage off on the wrong foot. I am not going to have them all wear the same tie, regardless. 

Regarding my trousers, I just know that I would want cuffs on double fwd pleated pants, when wearing in a more every day setting, so I would sacrifice a nice pair for the sake of the wedding. Cuffs it shall be. Also will most likely be wearing the bal boots. 

Collar pin, I have not decided on, completely. I do have a blue royal oxford FC and agree the material is interesting yet subdued. That would make a great shirt in white. Forgot about the black braces. Nothing fancy for those.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

sheldon said:


> DInner jackets in off-white or ivory.


Sorry, but what? He already decided he's not doing that. Also dinner jackets would be inappropriate during the day.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Ok, fiancee is okay with us not doing eggplant ties. However, she was kind of confused/upset as to why I would not have all groomsmen wear same tie. I think I may be able to convince her on doing two different ties, similar patterns or color family. I see that TM Lewin has a sale going on, and I was going to order from there. I realize they are not high quality, but they should be good enough to gift, and good enough for one evening. Here is a link, so please let me know what you all think might be two good ones (I note that the navy dogtooth is neat):



I really wanted to keep the price down to $40 or less per tie, since I am buying at least 8, possibly 9 of them, and I want to gift some more colorful, patterned socks to the groomsmen, which would be the only item my groomsmen will wear that will incorporate the eggplant color.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Shoes, AE 5th Street bal boots ..........


 I think the 5th Street is an inspired choice. A fundamental principle of putting ensembles together is that each element is approximately equivalent with respect to formality. As an example, penny loafers go with chinos while bals go with suits. The elements need not be exactly the same level of formality. As an example, there are bluchers that are more formal than loafers yet informal enough to go with chinos. Not all bluchers of course, a black wingtip is too formal, but a shoe like one of Dr. Libourel's favorites, the AE Wilburt in brown will work. In other words, elements may differ from one another in level of formality, but only a few clicks away. (Yes, Fred Astaire wore button downs with double breasted suits, but not that often, and when he did all the other elements were approximately the same level of formality as his suit. Besides, he was Fred Astaire.)

The suit you have chosen is rather high on the suit formality ladder, but a charcoal herringbone is not the very top rung thus allowing you to chose shoes other than the most formal. Of course the cap toe and perforated cap toe are the two most formal shoes. Either would be appropriate with your suit but neither is an inspired choice. In rank of formality the black medallion toe bal is third behind only the cap toe and perforated cap toe. Only the very most traditional do not wear medallion toe bals with their more formal lounge suits. (Neither you nor I fall into the "very most traditional" camp. If you did you would have chosen a morning coat.)

The 5th Street is a closed lace medallion toe dress boot. A dress boot of this style is more formal than its shoe equivalent. Moreover, in the world of medallion toes, the 5th Street is a formal medallion toe. Consider the Strand, it is a medallion toe that, in addition to the medallion, features perforations on the throat and quarters. On the other hand, while it also has a medallion toe, the 5th Street has no perforations at either the throat or quarters. The applicable rule is the less decoration the more formal the shoe. A minimally decorated closed lace medallion dress boot is almost as formal as a plain perforated cap toe shoe and arguably virtually as formal as a perforated cap toe shoe with perforations at the throat. Simply put, the 5th Street is quite appropriate for wear with your suit.

I believe the 5th Street is an inspired choice because it is not a shoe. In the future you will go through many pairs of cap toe and perforated cap toe shoes, nothing special. On the other hand the Fifth Streets are boots , and because they are not shoes your bride will remember them. In her eyes, and in yours I trust, they will always be special. When she sees them they may, by association with her wedding day, evoke
a warm sentimentality. One certainly hopes so. One nice thing about shoes, (and boots) is that while over the years we tend to outgrow our suits, we do not outgrow our shoes.  Keep them special, wear them only on the most important occasions, when a child is born, when a brother or sister, and later when your child gets married, and perhaps most importantly,every year on your anniversary.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Thank you arkirshner for a very reassuring comment and the advice you provided by way of PM. I am breaking in the 5th Streets around the house but saving to wear them for my wedding. 

I was curious as to what fabric would be most formal in the 3 piece suit style I selected, especially since I was torn between this mini (hardly noticeable) herringbone and a charcoal pick-n-pick (sharkskin).


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

*about the ties . . .*

For the groomsmen, I would lean more towards this:









and/or this:








Which, incidentally are booth considered navy doogstooth by TM Lewin, but different item numbers.

While she would have me steer more towards this from the Tie Bar:

and/ or this:

I definitely don't want to go as much as Sam Hober or Kent Wang for the ties, since, again, I have to buy 9 of them and am paying for most of the wedding.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

"Formal" is used to distinguish a difference in kind, eg. formal and semi formal evening (white tie and black tie) and day (morning coat and stroller) wear from everything else. In this meaning even the most formal lounge suit is informal. "Formal" is also used to distinguish a difference in degree of "dressiness" eg. a more formal suit from a less formal suit, a more formal shoe from a less formal shoe. The fabrics common to formal and semi formal wear like barathea are not often seen in informal wear. even in the dressiest lounge suit. 

Using the term "formal" to distinguish between the level of a lounge suit's dressiness,, generally speaking, the plainer the fabric the greater the formality. A plain weave is the simplest weave, passing filling threads over and under warp threads, it is also the most formal. Pic and pic actually uses two different threads, one lighter then the other and it is considered less formal than a plain weave. Likewise herringbone, because it actually is a pattern, is less formal than plain. The formality of a particular herringbone depends on the width of the pattern, the narrower the pattern the more formal the fabric. 

While reasonable men may differ slightly, Michael Anton's list of lounge suit fabric formality is: Solid, stripe, nailhead, birdseye, pic and pic, herringbone, windowpane, houndstooth, and glen plaid, all of which he considers "safe for business". 

Your herringbone is certainly "formal" enough for the occasion. A plain weave is the most "formal", and while I would not say it is boring,(some would), it is exactly what the name denotes, it is plain. Herringbone on the other hand has the aesthetic quality of visual interest and is certainly "formal" enough for the occasion. As an aside, when asked to suggest fabrics by someone thinking about commissioning a frock coat, Sator, a clothing historian who occasionally posts here suggested, along with a number of "formal" fabrics including a several baratheas, two herringbones, a 2mm repeat and a 5mm repeat.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Perhaps you can find a wedding tie pattern, of which dogtooth is one, in a style you like, with a color she likes. Something like or


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Not a bad idea. That would meet her halfway and be traditional at the same time. The Tie Bar also has traditional black/white/grey wedding ties in patterns like that. Just hash it over with her.

It's pretty much the same idea as coordinating tie and pocket square colours. It gives more individuality and looks better not to.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

A few cool ones I found in the traditional colours:


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Or, if giving into the color scheme thing-a-majig, maybe this mini check:

https://www.thetiebar.com/order_page.asp?pn=32952&orderPageReturn=%2Fsearch.asp%3Ftarget%3Deggplant%26btnTemplateSearchFormSubmit.x%3D0%26btnTemplateSearchFormSubmit.y%3D0%26viewall%3DviewallThough, it is in cotton. Not sure how good they would be.

Or this, in a pin dot, again, in eggplant:

The larger checks don't seem to resonate well with me, for whatever reason. They strike me as seeming overly summery. I have no clue why.

Or maybe even something like this, though I realize it is in grey, not really a traditional wedding color:

https://www.tmlewin.com/Grey-Fine-D...58803352,en_US,pd.html?start=21&q=wedding tie


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Well, I went with the TM Lewin grey fine dice ties for the groomsmen, as shown above. I will let the choice of solid navy or charcoal suits differentiate them. For myself, I am thinking a solid satin silver perhaps. Here is what I was looking at:








or








Last one is from T&A and actually is horizontally ribbed, though hard to tell.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

These ones also seemed interesting, but I should probably opt for a solid:








or









First one from Drakes, second one from T&A.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Why a solid?


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

I actually don't really want to wear a solid tie too much, but I have read that it can be a traditional English wedding tie for the groom when wearing a dark suit. Saw a photo of Daniel Craig in a similar ensemble and it looked good. I do need something different than the groomsmen ties to slightly differentiate myself. I've looked at Drakes, Brioni, Borrelli, T&A, etc, as well as some less expensive options.

If someone can recommend a nice tie for a dark three piece charcoal suit, that is somewhat formal and would compliment the grey dice groomsmen ties, I'd be all for it.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You're already wearing a three piece suit and are the groom. Don't see why you need to differentiate yourself any more than that. If you're more comfortable with a patterned tie, get it!

Try a Shepherd's check or Glen plaid.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

True. Maybe I will do a very similar tie to the groomsmen but in black and white. I was just thinking that I didn't want to get too busy with patterns, if the suit is even just a subtle herringbone.

There's the Hober # 11, which is basically a black version of the TM Lewin Grey Dice tie:


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Making some headway here gents. I have consulted with my groomsmen, and apparently out of the six of them, only two have either a solid charcoal or navy suit. Of those two, one has only a solid charcoal suit, and the other has both a solid navy and a solid charcoal suit. That means, 4 of the six will be buying suits, which is fine. So I was thinking, whether I still go with solid charcoal AND solid navy, getting a spattering of different shades in each color, or, should I go with everyone doing a solid charcoal, getting a variety of different shades? 

I may be overthinking this but my logic was that, having 3 charcoal and 3 navy may look sort of planned, and having all slightly different shades of charcoal may look less matched but maybe at the expense of trying to look indentically "uniformed" but falling short, if that makes sense. 

The original idea was that between solid navy and charcoal I thought most of the groomsmen would be covered. As it turns out, most of them will be buying suits and it is completely possible to have everyone in a charcoal (different tones) without imposing any additional cost unto them (if they are buying either color suit anwyays). 

Thoughts?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Thoughts, yes, organized, not. First, by asking them you are doing them an honor; by accepting they are doing you a favor. By setting up circumstances in which 4 of them have to buy a dark suit, you are doing them a favor. One can only hope they appreciate it now, but if not now, they will certainly appreciate it when the next occasion arises that calls for a dark suit. Still, while every man should have at least one dark suit, some men prefer navy to grey while others prefer grey to navy; some men look better in navy, others look better in grey. Some wives or girlfriends have a preference; some men prefer to accommodate their wives/girlfriends, some men prefer to do the opposite.

When it comes down to it, what is really important is that they do not embarrass you. Neither grey nor navy can embarrass you. Each of the four who need to buy a suit has his own preferences, and as each of them will be spending his own money on his suit I would let each choose his own color.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Great advice. Much appreciated. I had thought that some might prefer one color to the other. I just kept getting a bunch of responses like "which one do you want me to get?" I will let them decide based upon preference, what looks best with their complexion, and even which one they can get the better deal on, if applicable. For the budget-minded groomsmen, I have suggested they check Nordstrom Rack, Off Fifth, Last Call, JAB on sale, or even Wizard of Ahs on ebay.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Looking at Thurston braces right now. I presume a solid black should work. They won't even show.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Well, I got news that my suit came in today and I am going in for the fitting soon. I also ordered some braces and a tie.

Drakes Tie








Thurston Braces








I really didn't know whether to go with grey or black braces, but figured they won't show anyways. Please let me know what you think. I can change the order on the braces, and the tie can be returned for free if I don't like it.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Legal_Eagle said:


> Well, I got news that my suit came in today and I am going in for the fitting soon. I also ordered some braces and a tie.
> 
> Drakes Tie
> 
> ...


Braces/suspender color really should not matter, there is no reason to be showing them, period. Your coat should stay on.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

I realize that. I am wearing a vest too. They won't show. I just thought grey was a little more interesting than black, and perhaps a little more versatile.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Suit came in last week and I'm going in this Saturday for the first fitting. They are going to measure and mark the sleeves for the functioning buttonholes before sending back to Samuelsohn. I planned to wear a FC shirt like the one I will be wearing for my wedding, as well as AE Fifth Streets to measure the pant length. I think I want just a little bit of break, and will be wearing the pants higher than usual with my braces. 

They will do the waist and any jacket body tailoring closer to the wedding , to account of any weight loss that I hope happens.

Any other advice you guys can give me for the fitting? Tips on the vest fitment, etc?


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

*Update after first fitting*

Well, I went in for the first fitting. Material and workmanship look magnificent. There were, however, a few issues, which are being taken care of as we speak.

First, the jacket sleeves already had the button holes cut. This despite the fact that I specified I wanted to be measured again and then have it sent back for the cutting. My SA also specified this on the order form.

Second, the double forward pleat pants did not have the square, hook and eye waist extender I specified. In fact, they had no waist tab extender at all. Third, the same pair of pants also came with belt loop and no side tab adjusters, as well as a lack of a small English back "V" waist.

Now, my SA was professional and apologetic. He is sending the coat back and also the fwd pleat pants (the plaint front were fine, except for a wrong front button, which appeared not be horn). He said the sleeves will have to be shortened from the shoulder. Is this cause of concern?

As to the pants, it is beyond me how they are going to add a waist extender tab to the existing pair and also do the side tab adjusters. I would think they would have to do up another pair, no?

Opinions, advice?


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Still waiting on suit corrections. Should be here by next week. Apparently, the plant has a shut down and when they started things back up, the machines were not processing things correctly. Will be overnighted when ready. Really hope this turns out well. Still have time before wedding, but would have thought it would be done by now. 

In the meantime, I think I will be going with a white spread collar, FC Borrelli shirt.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

After a few more trips and a couple send backs to Samuelsohn, everything is perfect. Sleeves were shortened at shoulders and waist band was swapped out for one with side tab adjusters, etc. Glad I started this process several months ago. I went in for the final fitting today, and it looks great. After the final custom alterations and affects I feel totally confident in the end product. I shall post pics either before or at the wedding. Next Saturday! Thanks for everyone's help and input.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Congratulations! You've gotten good advice here and I look forward to seeing the pictures.

I spent the first four years of my legal career at Legal Aid of Western Michigan in Grand Rapids. At the time we were in the Federal Square Building, although I'm not sure where they are now. I know G.R. has grown quite a bit in the last thirty years, but when I was there it was a pretty nice place to live and the Bar was not populated with too many jerks. I hope that's your experience as well.


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## Legal_Eagle (Jul 25, 2008)

Thanks for the kind wishes. Interesting you mention that, because I actually started with a nonprofit for my first few years as an attorney. 

The West Michigan bar is a great group of people for the most part. Just a couple unsavory gents stands out, mostly in the family law area. 

Down the homestretch for the wedding. 5 more days. Hoping for a Michigan win as well. Go Blue!


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