# Florsheim by Duckie Brown?



## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

Does anyone know who's making these & where? They're offering longwing brogues in unusual Horween cordovan colors at prices that are slightly lower than Alden's. That's got me curious.

Thanks,

Nick D.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

Probably nothing you don't know, but Duckie Brown is just a designer who, in this case, has teamed up with Florsheim to offer these shoes. All the retail sites on which I have seen them say they are "imported," which suggests to me they are made in India like, as I understand it, every other Florsheim shoe. They look to me like the Imperial Kenwood and nothing more (or less). Given Florsheim's alienation of the quality shoe buyer by using cheaper materials and manufacturing practices, their decision to offer this expensive shoe only in colors and textures typically used to package less expensive skins and membranes suggests to me that these shoes are not designed to pass muster with the connoisseur market.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a thing. And I stand ready to be corrected if I am wrong about where they are manufactured.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Honestly with what they cost and their mysterious origins or lack of commentary on quality, I'd stay away.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

With the price of the Florsheim Duckie Brown long wings just very slightly less than some of the Alden shell cordovan offerings and in fact more than AE's shell cordovan offerings, I think I will stick with Alden and AE for my shell cordovan designs.


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## dwebber18 (Jun 5, 2008)

I have seen these pop up on Gilt before and I inquired of them about origin. They said the shoes were made of Horween shell but were assembled in India. I did a little google research and much of the talk is about less than high quality craftsmanship and many I saw were sending their shoes back for poor stitching, however quite a few were happy with them as well. It's a bit hard for me to pass up $390 shell wingtips when I see them on Gilt, but I'd rather just save up a little longer and get a better brand or just go to ebay. If you want to get a pair you might get a good one, but I'd recommend dealing with a quality shop that will easily accept returns.


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## bernoulli (Mar 21, 2011)

There is a sale on Zappos for a light grey Florsheim by DB.

https://www.zappos.com/florsheim-by-duckie-brown-the-brogue-light-grey

U$425 is indeed too much, but maybe U$276 is more palatable? I was tempted, but living abroad in a country with 60% import taxes (on the price PLUS shipping!!!) makes it pretty much a no-go.

I have a Florsheim Imperial made in Italy (not shell) and I am very happy with it. I know the company takes some flack around here, but I like the quality/price ratio. Pics with and without flash follow. I would buy the Zappos pair on sale if I lived in the US.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

When were those shoes made? I thought Florsheim was made in India now.


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## bernoulli (Mar 21, 2011)

Jovan said:


> When were those shoes made? I thought Florsheim was made in India now.


I don't know when they were made, but I bought it at their Rome store in February. The pair was on heavy sale (88 Euros I think, from 170 regular price) so it must have been made in 2010. I remember reading that their Royal Imperial line is still being made in Italy, while most of their other stuff is from India. I broke it this Saturday and wore it again today. Very comfortable and I am glad I bought it even though I knew almost nothing about shoes at the time.


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks for all the info. It looks like the longwings have been outsourced to India, but they're still asking made-in-America prices for them.

Nick D.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

BTW Nordstrom Rack had a load of Florsheim/DB shoes and I was very unimpressed - very heavy, stiff leather, and clunky. I didn't look to see where they were made.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

If Florsheim was looking to do a Black Fleece sort of thing or reestablish themselves as quality shoemakers, it seems like they bombed.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Jovan said:


> If Florsheim was looking to do a Black Fleece sort of thing or reestablish themselves as quality shoemakers, it seems like they bombed.


I lost interest at "Made in India." Really though, what sort of person purchases bright yellow dress shoes? I'm not sure what they were going for with this line.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

People who want to make a statement i.e. the sort of people regularly featured on The Sartorialist (who still refuses to acknowledge that he got his start here and at Style Forum). Brooks Brothers Black Fleece may be expensive and silly-trendy but at least it's well made.


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't think that the DB longwings look any more stolid than Alden's or AE's in the pix, but I haven't seen them in person. Some of the saddle shoes look very nice and feature interesting color combos. Too bad they're made in India.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Try AE's MacNeil. They don't have any REALLY crazy colours available in the custom program (though I could have sworn they made a pair of wing tips in red, white, and blue for former president Bush), but I wouldn't recommend wearing yellow long wings anyway!


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

It is possible that a shoe or anything else manufactured as cheaply as possible can be as good as any shoe made. The issue with this manufacturing practice is that it widens the bell curve around the quality standard, sacrificing consistency for volume and accepting a higher failure rate as a cost of doing business.

On any given day, with the right combination of workmen and inspectors, the product could be far better than the quality standard but, for the same reason, it could also be far worse. There is no way to know. I think Duckie Brown Florsheims are expensive enough that this inconsistency SHOULD NOT be accommodated by the consumer.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Jovan said:


> People who want to make a statement i.e. the sort of people regularly featured on The Sartorialist (who still refuses to acknowledge that he got his start here and at Style Forum). Brooks Brothers Black Fleece may be expensive and silly-trendy but at least it's well made.


I'm going to pair my BBBF camouflage pancho with some yellow longwing - Sartorialist here I come!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

That's the spirit! A few more suggestions: Add a magenta pocket square, a large gingham check shirt, and wear combat boots with your otherwise stuffy looking pinstripe suit (trousers rolled up, of course).


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Jovan said:


> That's the spirit! A few more suggestions: Add a magenta pocket square, a large gingham check shirt, and wear combat boots with your otherwise stuffy looking pinstripe suit (trousers rolled up, of course).


I've already stopped showering. My wife complained at week 2 but I told her "it's for the art."


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

Angeland said:


> It is possible that a shoe or anything else manufactured as cheaply as possible can be as good as any shoe made. The issue with this manufacturing practice is that it widens the bell curve around the quality standard, sacrificing consistency for volume and accepting a higher failure rate as a cost of doing business.
> 
> On any given day, with the right combination of workmen and inspectors, the product could be far better than the quality standard but, for the same reason, it could also be far worse. There is no way to know. I think Duckie Brown Florsheims are expensive enough that this inconsistency SHOULD NOT be accommodated by the consumer.


Your point is well taken. I have Goodyear welted leather boots made in China for LLBean, & I'm perfectly happy with them for what they are. They cost only $99, & I knew that Bean would take them back at any time. The DB Florsheims may be fine on average, but they should be fine all the time for that much money. I wish Alden or somebody else would follow their style leads, if not their production methods.

Nick D.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

joenobody0 said:


> I've already stopped showering. My wife complained at week 2 but I told her "it's for the art."


I hope by extension you've grown out the requisite fashionable stubble.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Jovan said:


> I hope by extension you've grown out the requisite fashionable stubble.


I look like a Canadian lumberjack in a $5,500 Italian suit - 3 sizes too small of course.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

Owned the DB LWs in cigar shell. I also ordered off of gilt in the heat of the moment. 

Loved the shoes. Just like the old kenwoods but the sole didn't have quite As much heft. Construction seemed solid enough. 

I did send them back though. I thought $400 for a shoe made in India was just too much. They seemed like they would have worked but I didn't want to risk it. 
If I ever see these sub $300 I'll buy every color.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

ncdobson said:


> I wish Alden or somebody else would follow their style leads, if not their production methods. Nick D.


I think this comment is the 500 pound (and 600 dollar) gorilla in the conversation. The reason you are probably looking at Florsheim by Duckie Brown is the same reason I am in conversation with some fellow in England about making me a pair of Tricker's Richard brogues. The Alden longwing is just off.

Off. There, I said it.

The Barrie last is . . . this seems a heresy . . . is not a great last. It has a cult following, but I don't understand it, and I am not sure whom it is designed to fit. Ordering half a size down is great and all, but they don't make half a size down from my size. I have a pair in the Barrie last, but I just don't think I will sink any more money into shoes built on it.

Also, Alden does not have metal grommets in the eyelets. I understand eschewing the larger, round types used by Tricker's, say, but they don't even use the recessed/hidden variety used by AE and Church's. I feel like I know how my $600 Alden bluchers will perish, whenever they perish: I am going to tear the cordovan at the eyelet because there is no grommet. Why?

Difficult to get the cigar colored variant--another problem. J. Crew sells a waxy brown calf Alden longwing, but need be it is made on the Barrie last and it is waxy.

You probably have your own reasons for looking beyond the Alden longwing; these are mine.

I don't think the Florsheim by Duckie Brown is the answer or, at least, one is left with too many questions about it to justify the expense.

I wish someone on this board would buy a pair of Robinson longwings. They look really interesting and priced well for what they seem to offer. I just don't know enough about the size, the leather, and the craftsmanship.

So I totally sympathize with your interest in the Duckie Brown, and if you pull the trigger on them I hope they do what you want.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

joenobody0 said:


> I look like a Canadian lumberjack in a $5,500 Italian suit - 3 sizes too small of course.


I may be Canadian, but I ain't no lumberjack!

Really though, we'd better stop joking while we're ahead. Some lurking fashionista is getting "good" ideas from our back and forth. :icon_smile_big:


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Angeland said:


> The Barrie last is . . . this seems a heresy . . . is not a great last. It has a cult following, but I don't understand it, and I am not sure whom it is designed to fit. Ordering half a size down is great and all, but they don't make half a size down from my size. I have a pair in the Barrie last, but I just don't think I will sink any more money into shoes built on it.


I agree with you wholeheartedly. The Barrie last is not designed for the average, or near average, shaped foot. As I obtain more and more pairs of shoes that actually fit, I realize how horribly my Barrie lasted shoes fit. I will never even consider another one in the future.

AS produces a longwing as a stock item. Also, their MTO operation is very flexible - another thing that Alden doesn't do very well.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

You could get a real shoe for this kind of money.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

joenobody0 said:


> I agree with you wholeheartedly. The Barrie last is not designed for the average, or near average, shaped foot. As I obtain more and more pairs of shoes that actually fit, I realize how horribly my Barrie lasted shoes fit. I will never even consider another one in the future.


I think you might have just convinced me to sell mine. I am tired of "working" with a $600 shoe.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Angeland said:


> I think you might have just convinced me to sell mine. I am tired of "working" with a $600 shoe.


Good for you! I wish more people would start speaking out about this issue. Alden sells some really great looking shoes on a really odd fitting last, and I think a lot of people just put up with it because they want those iconic styles.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Not to be argumentative, but the Barrie last provides for me a very comfortable fit. I do have to downsize by 1/2 a size from what I normally wear and my foot shape does feature a broad forefoot, with a somewhat more narrow than average heel. Consequently, I have PTB's, long wings, cap toe dress boots All Weather Walkers and Ranger Mocs, all crafted by Alden on the Barrie last and each fits me to a "T", as they say! Problems arise when, as was alluded in an earlier post, folks become enamored with a particular shoe design, but give inadequate consideration to the last on which such designs were crafted. The problem is not with Alden or the Barrie last. It is reflective of bad, individual purchasing decisions. Paraphrasing the late Johnnie Cochran, "if the shoe don't fit, we must aquit"...ourselves with another pair, built on another last!


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Not to be argumentative, but the Barrie last provides for me a very comfortable fit. I do have to downsize by 1/2 a size from what I normally wear and my foot shape does feature a broad forefoot, with a somewhat more narrow than average heel. Consequently, I have PTB's, long wings, cap toe dress boots All Weather Walkers and Ranger Mocs, all crafted by Alden on the Barrie last and each fits me to a "T", as they say! Problems arise when, as was alluded in an earlier post, folks become enamored with a particular shoe design, but give inadequate consideration to the last on which such designs were crafted. The problem is not with Alden or the Barrie last. It is reflective of bad, individual purchasing decisions. Paraphrasing the late Johnnie Cochran, "if the shoe don't fit, we must aquit"...ourselves with another pair, built on another last!


I don't doubt it fits some people well. I tried nearly every sizing combination possible (including .5 down) to find something that doesn't leave my narrow heels a bloody mess after a day. Nothing works. Too much money spent. I had all my fittings done at Alden in SF. I wish I would have tried something else much much sooner. I have scars that will remind me how not to shop for shoes for years to come. The C&J 325 last is like a dream in comparison.

I do think it's a knock on Alden, or at least the retailers, that it's nearly impossible to purchase a longwing that *isn't* on the Barrie last.


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## Angeland (Aug 24, 2011)

eagle2250 said:


> Problems arise when, as was alluded in an earlier post, folks become enamored with a particular shoe design, but give inadequate consideration to the last on which such designs were crafted. The problem is not with Alden or the Barrie last. It is reflective of bad, individual purchasing decisions.


Yes, we choose to buy or not to buy, and that decision is ours entirely. That said, if one is a true 13 US, then one has a problem. Unless I am incorrect, Alden does not make a size 12.5 on the Barrie last as a standard offering, and thus one cannot really try it on without special ordering it. A bad purchasing decision, indeed. I bought mine in 13 because the 12 is too small, and I did so because I think even the critics would agree that Alden's shell colors and finish are unsurpassed. With a heavy sock the shoe fits well enough, and it is a beautiful shoe, but I wish it were easier to experiment with options, and therein lies my chief complaint. I say "easier" as a fairly seasoned shoe lover. I am willing to travel and wait and experiment to find the variant of a particular shoe that works for me--with Alden no less. It just seems to me that if they know the last generally runs half a size big, then it would be nice to try on a 12.5 without buying it first.


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## temple_gym (Oct 10, 2010)

I guess comfort is very important. This reminds me of J&M (sorry If Im diverting from FLroshiem here).

I am still undecided if I should get a pair of J&M. I love the trampoline cushioning (especially for a flat footer) but I kind of hold back when I discovered they were made in India. Not that the rpoduct is inferior but I am always under the impression that J&M is made in the USA. I was told that the Aristocrat range is still made in USS. Can anyone confirm this?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Orsini said:


> You could get a real shoe for this kind of money.


I must correct you here: You could get a real shoe for $100 less than what they're asking, made in a country with fair labour laws!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*This Shoe Radiates Bad Vibrations*



Jovan said:


> I must correct you here: You could get a real shoe for $100 less than what they're asking, made in a country with fair labour laws!


I thought I said that. 

I wouldn't spend this kind of money on a shoe that, material not withstanding, will never be anything but a throwaway made under questionable conditions. Spend your money somewhere else. 

Besides, it is bad karma to combine high quality material with shoddy craft.


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## ncdobson (Aug 25, 2011)

temple_gym said:


> I guess comfort is very important. This reminds me of J&M (sorry If Im diverting from FLroshiem here).
> 
> I am still undecided if I should get a pair of J&M. I love the trampoline cushioning (especially for a flat footer) but I kind of hold back when I discovered they were made in India. Not that the rpoduct is inferior but I am always under the impression that J&M is made in the USA. I was told that the Aristocrat range is still made in USS. Can anyone confirm this?


I wore some pretty J&M Signature saddle shoes today that I bought on clearance a couple of years ago. They're the only uncomfortable J&Ms I own & the only ones with the trampoline system. They were made in Italy.

Nick D.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

Most of the Florsheim at the Rack - like most of the other merchandise - have never seen the inside of a Nordstrom store. They are bought by the truckload at a ridiculous discount and sold to Rack customers who think - incorrectly - that just because the store name includes Nordstrom the merchandise must be the same as a real Nordstrom.

One of the most grotesque scenes in the sartorial world is women and men grovelling and rooting through displays of garbage befitting a Shopko with a smile of frugal, fashionable self satisfaction on their face. They are be taken and not only do they not know it - they LOVE it.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

StephenRG said:


> BTW Nordstrom Rack had a load of Florsheim/DB shoes and I was very unimpressed - very heavy, stiff leather, and clunky. I didn't look to see where they were made.


Most of the Florsheims at the rack - like most of the merchandise the Rack - have never seen the inside of a Nordstrom store. They are bought by the truckload at a ridiculous discount and sold to Rack customers who think - incorrectly - that just because the store name includes Nordstrom the merchandise must be the same as a real Nordstrom.

One of the most grotesque scenes in the sartorial world is women and men grovelling and rooting through displays of garbage befitting a Shopko with a smile of frugal, fashionable self satisfaction on their face. They are be taken and not only do they not know it - they LOVE it.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

temple_gym said:


> I guess comfort is very important. This reminds me of J&M (sorry If Im diverting from FLroshiem here).
> 
> I am still undecided if I should get a pair of J&M. I love the trampoline cushioning (especially for a flat footer) but I kind of hold back when I discovered they were made in India. Not that the rpoduct is inferior but I am always under the impression that J&M is made in the USA. I was told that the Aristocrat range is still made in USS. Can anyone confirm this?


The Crown Aristocrafts are made in Tennessee. The regular Aristocrafts ( the $265 shoes) are made in India.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Mr. Mac said:


> Most of the Florsheims at the rack - like most of the merchandise the Rack - have never seen the inside of a Nordstrom store.


I was referring specifically to the Duckie Brown models, which I'm pretty sure had seen the inside of a Nordstrom store - but were still not worth getting.

While I agree that most of NR's stock isn't ex- the "real" store, my local one has occasional Santoni, Magnanni, etc. and plenty of AE - enough for it to be worthwhile popping in occasionally to see what they have.


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## temple_gym (Oct 10, 2010)

@ncdobson. Thx! WEre J&M ever Made In Italy? 
@arkirshner. Thx for sharing. I will check out the Crown Aristocrats.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Alden's Barrie last runs one full width larger than most other Alden lasts.
If you generally wear a 13D, then a Barrie 13C would give you a comparable fit.
I believe the " go down a 1/2 size" recommendation was initiated by retailers who only stock D widths.



Angeland said:


> Yes, we choose to buy or not to buy, and that decision is ours entirely. That said, if one is a true 13 US, then one has a problem. Unless I am incorrect, Alden does not make a size 12.5 on the Barrie last as a standard offering, and thus one cannot really try it on without special ordering it. A bad purchasing decision, indeed. I bought mine in 13 because the 12 is too small, and I did so because I think even the critics would agree that Alden's shell colors and finish are unsurpassed. With a heavy sock the shoe fits well enough, and it is a beautiful shoe, but I wish it were easier to experiment with options, and therein lies my chief complaint. I say "easier" as a fairly seasoned shoe lover. I am willing to travel and wait and experiment to find the variant of a particular shoe that works for me--with Alden no less. It just seems to me that if they know the last generally runs half a size big, then it would be nice to try on a 12.5 without buying it first.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Nordstrom Rack inventory is a mix of full line store excess product, branded close-out purchases, and some special branded make-up product.



StephenRG said:


> I was referring specifically to the Duckie Brown models, which I'm pretty sure had seen the inside of a Nordstrom store - but were still not worth getting.
> 
> While I agree that most of NR's stock isn't ex- the "real" store, my local one has occasional Santoni, Magnanni, etc. and plenty of AE - enough for it to be worthwhile popping in occasionally to see what they have.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Angeland said:


> I think this comment is the 500 pound (and 600 dollar) gorilla in the conversation. The reason you are probably looking at Florsheim by Duckie Brown is the same reason I am in conversation with some fellow in England about making me a pair of Tricker's Richard brogues. The Alden longwing is just off.
> 
> Off. There, I said it.
> 
> ...


Count another fellow who will never purchase another pair of shoes made on the Barrie last. As much as I love the business practices of Tom park at LeatherSoul in Honolulu and Beverly Hills it seems that vast majority of his Aldens are made on the Barrie last.

I have had to give away between two and three thousand dollars worth of Barrie lasted Aldens because they hurt my heels to badly. I still have three pairs that I just can't bring myself to get rid of because of how much I paid for them.

And for those who think Alden needs to know about this,....Trust me, they do.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> Count another fellow who will never purchase another pair of shoes made on the Barrie last. As much as I love the business practices of Tom park at LeatherSoul in Honolulu and Beverly Hills it seems that vast majority of his Aldens are made on the Barrie last.
> 
> I have had to give away between two and three thousand dollars worth of Barrie lasted Aldens because they hurt my heels to badly. I still have three pairs that I just can't bring myself to get rid of because of how much I paid for them.
> 
> And for those who think Alden needs to know about this,....Trust me, they do.


I agree about Leather Soul. When they opened the California store they offered a Hampton lasted NST Blucher in Whiskey, and Monk in Ravello. I bought both. I haven't seen anything special from them that's not on the Barrie last since.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

^^ In Tom Park's defense I'm sure he does this because many people who do well with the Barrie last know what to expect with it. I try to bear in mind that Alden is such a bit player in the Men's shoe market that not many people know what their lasts fit like and it's difficult, if not impossible, to try a pair on in many parts of the U.S..

I've been assured that Alden is well aware of this,....They just don't care. I mean after all they already have a cult following and they do not wish to expand their market very much or they would respond with change. They're able to bully their dealers not to sell below full retail price and they maintain exclusivity of their products. Why change?


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

127.72 MHz said:


> ^^ In Tom Park's defense I'm sure he does this because many people who do well with the Barrie last know what to expect with it. I try to bear in mind that Alden is such a bit player in the Men's shoe market that not many people know what their lasts fit like and it's difficult, if not impossible, to try a pair on in many parts of the U.S..
> 
> I've been assured that Alden is well aware of this,....They just don't care. I mean after all they already have a cult following and they do not wish to expand their market very much or they would respond with change. They're able to bully their dealers not to sell below full retail price and they maintain exclusivity of their products. Why change?


It's true. Alden can do what they want. All I can do is respond. I have at least 15 pair of Shell Aldens in my current rotation, however I haven't purchased any new ones since the LSBH opening. On the other hand, I have purchased 3 pair of Shell C&J's. There are too many nice shoes in the world for me to get bent out of shape about Alden's (many) issues. I simply take my money to other manufacturers who offer similar value and understand customer satisfaction.

I still enjoy my Aldens though. When they get it right, it's better than almost anyone.


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## Bandit44 (Oct 1, 2010)

If anyone is giving away Alden Barrie lasted shoes, I'm a 13B in that particular model.:icon_smile_big:


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

Bandit44 said:


> If anyone is giving away Alden Barrie lasted shoes, I'm a 13B in that particular model.:icon_smile_big:


I'm a 7B in the Barrie. My shoe would probably fit inside your shoe.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> ^^ In Tom Park's defense I'm sure he does this because many people who do well with the Barrie last know what to expect with it. I try to bear in mind that Alden is such a bit player in the Men's shoe market that not many people know what their lasts fit like and it's difficult, if not impossible, to try a pair on in many parts of the U.S..
> 
> I've been assured that Alden is well aware of this,....They just don't care. I mean after all they already have a cult following and they do not wish to expand their market very much or they would respond with change. They're able to bully their dealers not to sell below full retail price and they maintain exclusivity of their products. Why change?


As a consumer, I feel almost like I should slap my own mouth for saying this, but does Alden, in the final analysis, have the right idea? Don't those manufacturers/vendors who characteristically feature frequent sales of their products, condition us to wait for the sale? In my case, that seems to be what has occured. When buying a new pair of AE's, I'm inclined to wait for the sale and with Aldens, I'm not. When buying from BB, I'll wait for the sale, but when buying from O'Connell's, I buy the item when it comes to my attention...based on the retail practices of the respective vendors! I'm inclined to believe that we have been behavoirly conditioned.


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