# The Death of 'Please'



## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

I've noticed lately that the word 'please' is disappearing fast in all contexts of life. Many people will still say 'Thanks', but that alone cannot compensate for a lack of 'Please'.

Hopefully I am not the only one whom this distresses.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

Oh, please...



> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> I've noticed lately that the word 'please' is disappearing fast in all contexts of life. Many people will still say 'Thanks', but that alone cannot compensate for a lack of 'Please'.
> 
> Hopefully I am not the only one whom this distresses.


-Ex falso quodlibet-


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

LOL.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jill_
> 
> LOL.


 You live in Texas, and the culture may be different there. No question that please is on the way out. In much of the tri state area on the east coast ," you're welcome" has given way to "no problem". I have no idea what that means.

Carpe Diem


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Intrepid_
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 The cretins who say 'no problem' instead of 'you're welcome' have been so often told that they're _special_, that they assume that it is an immense pleasure for anyone else to interact with them.


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## Frank aka The Minotaur (Nov 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
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I disagree. I use "No problem" frequently with the meaning that "It was no problem to help you". How is that any less meaningful or educated than "You're welcome"? Welcome to what?

Most of the people I've heard use "No problem" are everyday people with no pretensions to being something they are not.


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## Jill (Sep 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by Intrepid_
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 Sorry Intrepid. I didn't mean to imply that the subject was funny. Just hreljan's response.

I would definitely say that in the South that as a rule, manners far surpass those I've witness in other regions where I've travelled and worked extensively over the past 8 years. While I don't always say please (I try to), I at least try to couch requests in a slightly more palatable way:

"May I have a..." as opposed to "Could you get me a..."

Subtle difference, really. But I think the former is a bit more genteel.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I note that the "no problem" alternative to "you're welcome" is almost exactly the same as the Spanish "de nada" response. I have increasing occasion to use the latter porque Espanol sera el idioma del futuro in Alta California donde yo vivo. Oops, must have just lapsed into it again![:I]


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

I'm not a big fan of "please" myself. I mean, what does "please" mean anyway? Am I supposed to be begging people for things? It depends on the context really. If I am drafting a letter I might say "Please send those documents at the earliest convinence." But, if I'm at McDonalds I don't say "May I please have a big mac?" I say, "I'll have a bigmac" or "Let me get a bicmac." 

I also take issue with calling people "sir" but that's a totally different discussion.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Some very funny posts so far. I would like to add to that the thought that even if "no problem" is not used, people are thinking "*your* welcome". Pet peeve of mine 

Why is please fading? I think in many social strata that being polite has come to convey weakness, being a "punk", etc. Many segments of society are becoming coarser and social interactions are following suit.

Warmest regards


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> Some very funny posts so far. I would like to add to that the thought that even if "no problem" is not used, people are thinking "*your* welcome". Pet peeve of mine
> 
> Why is please fading? I think in many social strata that being polite has come to convey weakness, being a "punk", etc. Many segments of society are becoming coarser and social interactions are following suit.


I disagree. I think there is a disappearance of things like saying please because of the melding of social classes. In fact, I might write a paper on this theory.


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_


I disagree. I think there is a disappearance of things like saying please because of the melding of social classes. In fact, I might write a paper on this theory.
[/quote]

Hmmmm, it's not so much a melding as a sinking.........a sinking to the lowest common denominator.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rocker_
> 
> Hmmmm, it's not so much a melding as a sinking.........a sinking to the lowest common denominator.


I think it's the opposite actually. I think it's lower classes (as in economic classes) are staring to act more like the upper classes, not the other way around.


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm bothered by people's inability to say thank you. Mainly women who you open a door for.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> I think it's the opposite actually. I think it's lower classes (as in economic classes) are staring to act more like the upper classes, not the other way around.


Really? So then people that live in ghettos are starting to wear MTM suits daily and those in trailer parks are sporting the latest runway fashions? Or is the "gangsta" look ever growing in the young suburban population and baggy wrinkled shorts with loud shirts common in what were once "Jacket Required" eating establishments? Could be just me.

Warmest regards


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
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I wasn't talking about what people wear. But I will say this, a guy in an MTM suit is the least likely of all to say "please" (at least in my experience). A guy can go into a restaurant wearing baggy wrinkled shorts and still say "please" and "thank you" and a guy can come into the same restaurant wearing an MTM suit and be the rudest prick in the entire place.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> But I will say this, a guy in an MTM suit is the least likely of all to say "please" (at least in my experience)...the same restaurant wearing an MTM suit and be the rudest prick in the entire place.


First, if this is how you feel, I must ask why you would willingly talk to a group of us rude pricks? Second, I think I use the word "please" more than just about anyone I know.

Puzzled, but warmest regards


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
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Well, I can give you a couple of reasons. First, the comment about the guy in the MTM suit being least likely to say "please" is just an observation I have made through several experiences (I've worked several jobs in service industries where saying "please" is pretty common), that's not to say that everyone in an MTM suit is a rude prick or that anyone on this message board is a rude prick (though I'm sure that they are out there). The second statement, was a hypothetical to show that the way one is dressed does not necessarily correlate with one's level of politeness (which is a correlation that you were implying in your original post about people in the ghetto wearing MTM).


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I referenced ghetto and trailer park specifically since you mentioned economic classes. One could reasonably infer if you live in a ghetto or trailer park one would be of a modest socio-economic status.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> I referenced ghetto and trailer park specifically since you mentioned economic classes. One could reasonably infer if you live in a ghetto or trailer park one would be of a modest socio-economic status.


Sure, but one could not infer that if one lives in a ghetto or trailer park that one is the type of person that would not use "please." That's what I was trying to point out.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
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Actually, I think that is where we might start to disagree. As I stated above, I feel that in some strata of society, being polite is considered a weakness, putting on airs, "punk", "soft", etc. It is okay we disagree but my mind will not be changed. I lived near Detroit for many years, on both sides of the border, and drew my conclusions from there. I am not saying it is a valid conclusion, my sample might have been skewed and I readily admit that.

As an aside, I do find latino immigrants to be very polite as a whole. Maybe it is a US thing?

Warmest regards


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
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I think we're probably both over-generalizing. I'm sure that there are rude and polite people in all strata of society. I come from what is generally considered the rudest state in the country and to be honest I quite prefer it that way because I feel that no matter what else we may be around here, at least we're honest (although, it's interesting for purposes of this debate that not only are we considered the rudest state, be we also have the highest household income).


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

One can exude 'class' regardess of one's social stratum. I think Andy, being from Kansas City may remember 'please' used there as a form of 'excuse me' such as missing a comment? The one advantage of retaining archaic or fading speech is the irony of standing out. In a world of people discrespecting other's hoodies, saying please is da bomb YO!


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Kav,

Following up on your post - I find it annoying when someone doesn't hear you or misses something and utters a confused "WHAT?" Or the Texan version which irritates me to no end "DO WHAT?" If I miss something I will either ask them to please repeat it or say I am sorry, which they usually understand means that I didn't hear them. I don't think most people are intentionally being rude so much as they don't know how to be polite.


Karl


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
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> Kav,
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The usual response in Canada, or at least the part I am most familiar with, the standard response in this situation is, "I beg your pardon?" I recently brought on a divisional manager that has spent the last 12 years in England. While US born and raised, he has taken on some rather charming English speech/written mannerism such as this and it is most refreshing to hear in the US.

Warmest regards


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

Would all of you insufferably pretentious a**holes who are more concerned with the appearance of civility than with civility itself please shut the **** up? Thank you.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
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Oh, _please!_


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
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> Kav,
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Agreed. I think that "DO WHAT?" is perhaps the most offensive thing someone can say, unless they add "now" to it as in "Do WHAT, now?"

But, then again, there are the waiters and waitresses who, as you are about to finish your meal come by and ask, "Are you still workin' on that?" even as they try to snatch the plate out from under your suspended knife and fork.

Really, it's getting bad out there...


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

I think that the reason that "please" is disappearing has to do with the fact that more and more people have been led to believe that they are *entitled* to whatever they want or need. To say "please" betrays their sense of entitlement. Saying "please" is to admit that you don't have an absolute right to whatever it is you are demanding, and the person of whom you are making the demand just might have the right to turn you down.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Liberty Ship_
> 
> I think that the reason that "please" is disappearing has to do with the fact that more and more people have been led to believe that they are *entitled* to whatever they want or need. To say "please" betrays their sense of entitlement. Saying "please" is to admit that you don't have an absolute right to whatever it is you are demanding, and the person of whom you are making the demand just might have the right to turn you down.


 Just so. 'Please' is part of the grease, if one will, that helps to lubricate social interactions - this is especially important with strangers.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> Would all of you insufferably pretentious a**holes who are more concerned with the appearance of civility than with civility itself please shut the **** up? Thank you.


 How lovely for you, dear.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> Would all of you insufferably pretentious a**holes who are more concerned with the appearance of civility than with civility itself please shut the **** up? Thank you.


This of course, would be neither the appearance nor the reality. I am sure the writer giggled at his naughtiness right up until his mother turned the lights out for the night.

Warmest regards


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Liberty Ship_
> 
> I think that the reason that "please" is disappearing has to do with the fact that more and more people have been led to believe that they are *entitled* to whatever they want or need. To say "please" betrays their sense of entitlement. Saying "please" is to admit that you don't have an absolute right to whatever it is you are demanding, and the person of whom you are making the demand just might have the right to turn you down.


I don't refuse to use the word "please" in most situations because I feel that I am *entitled* to what I am asking for but because I feel that I have *earned* what I am asking for and therefore do not need to *beg* someone to give it to me. If I am asking someone to pass me the milk I might say "please," but if I am asking someone to give me something that I am purchasing or something that the person owes to me then I don't feel that I have to beg them for it by saying "please."


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
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 One is not begging when one uses 'please'. One is demonstrating an understanding that the other party is a human being, entitled to a certain minimum of respect. To bark orders to a humble clerk, &c. without so much as a 'please' is to betray a profound social insecurity.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
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Sorry, but, I don't see it that way.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
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This is a very sad response, in my opinion. What do you lose by saying "please?" If you are so entitled, you will undoubtedly get what is yours regardless. I'm afraid that to explain further requires that I apply the calculus of practicality to simple manners which, though a shame, might help.

If you are entitled, the "please" to the agent in charge of dispensing to you what is yours might provide a quicker and more cooperative delivery of what is yours to you. Your legitimate request might even be given priority over other equally legitimate demands of other, rude people. The saying of "please," rather than giving the appearence of "begging," conveys a confidence and genorisity of spirit that could only be present in one with complete rights and privileges. In other words, in addition to simply making the world a more harmonious place, manners are power. And when I see someone acting in an ill mannered fashion, I interpert it as insecurity and defensiveness. Ironically, when I hear someone make a demand without "please," I assume that they are relying on something other than natural entitlement, like intimidation or rank, to extract what they want rather than asking politely for what they deserve.

The "please" gives the responder the fig leaf of voluntary cooperation with your request rather than confronting them with the stark reality of the disparity of your relative positions. I have to wonder about a person who is more concerned with highlighting that disparity than he is about bestowing a bit of dignity on the poor soul who is required to deliver whatever it is up to begin with. In most cases, bestowing dignity on another through manners makes you more, not less, powerful.

There is a great return on investment in saying "please;" and in all manners in general. It costs one nothing (except those who for some perverse reason think that there is a cost in pride), and it returns respect and cooperation. Respect and cooperation are power.

So if you won't say "please" simply because it's the right thing to do, do it because it's "practical."


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

A word I like is 'compassion'.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Liberty Ship_
> ...What do you lose by saying "please?" If you are so entitled, you will undoubtedly get what is yours regardless. I'm afraid that to explain further requires that I apply the calculus of practicality to simple manners which, though a shame, might help.
> 
> If you are entitled, the "please" to the agent in charge of dispensing to you what is yours might provide a quicker and more cooperative delivery of what is yours to you. Your legitimate request might even be given priority over other equally legitimate demands of other, rude people. The saying of "please," rather than giving the appearence of "begging," conveys a confidence and genorisity of spirit that could only be present in one with complete rights and privileges. In other words, in addition to simply making the world a more harmonious place, manners are power. And when I see someone acting in an ill mannered fashion, I interpert it as insecurity and defensiveness. Ironically, when I hear someone make a demand without "please," I assume that they are relying on something other than natural entitlement, like intimidation or rank, to extract what they want rather than asking politely for what they deserve.
> ...


Well said ! ! !


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

"Please" and "thank you" denote that you're dealing with a free human being, not an automatic vending machine or other service providing device. It's recognition that the human being you're dealing with may not actually _want_ to serve you. Being polite, courteous, considerate, pleasant in manner,etc. shows that you don't take that willingness for granted. Although you may have "earned" the service in purely economic terms,i.e. you can pay for it, you still (in a civilised society) have to "earn" the willing cooperation of the human service provider, which is not automatic. If you make no attempt to treat others as human beings, or you pull rank on them ("the customer is always right") then the service you'll get will probably not be very human.

As our day-to-day relations become less and less human (pre-recorded messages, commercial pseudos, standardised empty sales patter,etc. - and the internet)it's hardly surprising that "please" is becoming archaic.

In French rural communities, even "please" is not sufficient to get the degree of confidence required for even basic transactions. Several minutes of conversation (the weather, where you're from, where you're going, etc.) are needed before someone will give you proper directions if you're lost. I bet it's the same in remoter parts of the US.

Ed: I see Liberty Ship has expressed this very much better than me.


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLibourel_
> 
> I note that the "no problem" alternative to "you're welcome" is almost exactly the same as the Spanish "de nada" response. I have increasing occasion to use the latter porque Espanol sera el idioma del futuro in Alta California donde yo vivo. Oops, must have just lapsed into it again![:I]


Indeed, as I pointed out in a different thread when this issue came up, this is true of all the Romance languages (and probably quite a few others). It seems very odd to think "no problem" is rude or offensive when several hundred million Spanish/French/Portugese/Italian speakers go around every day saying some variation of "It is nothing" when somebody says "thank you" to them.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
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> Although you may have "earned" the service in purely economic terms,i.e. you can pay for it, you still (in a civilised society) have to "earn" the willing cooperation of the human service provider, which is not automatic. If you make no attempt to treat others as human beings, or you pull rank on them ("the customer is always right") then the service you'll get will probably not be very human.


I agree completely.

It costs nothing to say please, thank you or bless someone when he sneezes.

*"Buy the best, and you will only cry once." - Chinese proverb*


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I love it when somebody referes to 'lowly clerks.' I had a ring rapping, ROTC grad of some midwest college play admiral of the fleet and run me around making a FRESH supply of coffee and assorted other command decisions. It was awfull, just awfull the way his medical records dissappeared forcing a new round of innoculations, his uniforms somehow rehemmed 5" shorter and a request for duty on an isolated LORAN station submitted.Civility knows no boundaries because incivility does not.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Are you guys serious? If you don't say "please" to someone then you are not treating them as a human being? You've got to be kidding me.

This coming from guys who refer to people that say "no problem" instead of "thank you" as "cretins" without knowing a thing about this people. You guys really have to get over yourselves. You paint with a wide brush and come up with all of these proxies that make absolutely no sense in the real world.

So people who don't say "please" are Hitlers who don't treat others like human beings, and yet you guys on your high horses refer to people as "lowly" clerks. At least I've never called anyone lowly.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
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Economy? You need to use four extra words plus a gerund to replace "please" in your sample sentence.



> quote:
> Some people really need to get laid. Soon.


I have noticed the only people that tend to use this insult, oddly enough, are those that infrequently have sex.

Warmest regards


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
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> So people who don't say "please" are Hitlers who don't treat others like human beings


Who said that?


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
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But it just happens to be time-honoured simple one-syllable easily pronounceable and universally understood word that you can use when you ask someone for something and don't want it to sound like an order - that's all.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
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Well, you for one:



> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
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> If you make no attempt to treat others as human beings...


So with that statement you are saying that if you don't say please then you are not treating the person as a human being. I used the Hitler reference because Hitler was a guy that didn't treat people like human beings (it's called rhetorical hyperbole).


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Odoreater, I can only award 1/2 points for the Hitler reference, as Bush was in no way juxtaposed with Adolf. 

Warmest regards


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
> 
> Odoreater, I can only award 1/2 points for the Hitler reference, as Bush was in no way juxtaposed with Adolf.


Haha, let's not even go there.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
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More like rhetorical runaway inflation, I'd say.

Let me put it differently then. "Please" is one of those words that are _only _used when you're addressing people. It has a social purpose. You don't say please when you're giving an order, because the person carrying out the order is reduced to his or her function, is interchangeable and anonymous - in a word, dehumanised. The person could just as well be a machine. Of course, it's possible to be polite without using the set vocabulary - other words, expressions, tone of voice, body language, etc. can be used instead, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.


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## Tyto (Sep 22, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Jill_
> I would definitely say that in the South that as a rule, manners far surpass those I've witness in other regions where I've travelled and worked extensively over the past 8 years. While I don't always say please (I try to), I at least try to couch requests in a slightly more palatable way:
> 
> "May I have a..." as opposed to "Could you get me a..."
> ...


My relatively limited experience in Tennessee tended to confirm your assertion. I actually thanked my parents after that trip for engraining politeness as a habit, as I had no trouble adjusting to pleasantries with even the most limited interaction, though being called Mr. Tyto took some getting used to, as I always considered Mr. Tyto to be my father. A nearly life-long friend, whose child would have called me Tyto, was obliged by the standards of decorum to call me Mr. Tyto, even though I initially insisted otherwise.

I've been guilty of the "no problem" or "no trouble" or "my pleasure" responses, but usually in response to "sorry to trouble you for," or, "I hope this isn't too much trouble."

And Jill, I think you have a point on the tone. I try to ask in the same manner that you do.

__________

Fair and softly goes far.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_


But it just happens to be time-honoured simple one-syllable easily pronounceable and universally understood word that you can use when you ask someone for something and don't want it to sound like an order - that's all.
[/quote]

I'm not arguing *against* the word, I'm saying it's often superflous. Arguing civility is one thing, arguing syntax, another.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
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No, merely an observation of mine I felt like sharing. "Oh, snap..." though? "Dude"? It's all becoming clear now.

Warmest regards


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> Besides which, aren't guys who actually use terms like "dude" and "oh, snap" supposed to get LOTS of sex?
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I am afraid I have yet to make statement concerning this so at this point, just cannot be inconsistent. Snap, Dood.

Warmest regards


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

We're probably boring people by now, let's be pissy to each other via PM.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

Good Lord -- it's really not that important. For me, it comes down to basically the idea that Tone trumps Syntax. As for advocating 'polite language' in an uncivilized tone... well, one would think that the irony would be beyond obvious.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by Wayfarer_
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I am glad you were able to figure that out with a little direction. _Pleased_ to help.

Warmest regards


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Frank aka The Minotaur_
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I agree entirely with you JLPWCXIII - and I get irritated by "No problem" the whole time. I mean, at the end of a transaction at almost every retail outlet one says to the cashier "Thanks" and the response is invariably "No problem" ...so why should it be a problem when it's the cashier's _duty_ in the first place to serve the customer!


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

I find no problem insulting, as if any request were some kind of nuisance for someone to carry out.

The death of please is even more annoying. Nothing irritates me more than people who barge into one's presence and then say "Coolidge, I "need you to"...."

You don't need me to. You say please. "Coolidge, would you please..."

This sense of entitlement where individuals can just walk around as if everyone is supposed to meet their needs without a polite request to do so is incredibly irritating. You can't say please to me, do it yourself.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> "Please" and "thank you" denote that you're dealing with a free human being, not an automatic vending machine or other service providing device. It's recognition that the human being you're dealing with may not actually _want_ to serve you. Being polite, courteous, considerate, pleasant in manner,etc. shows that you don't take that willingness for granted. Although you may have "earned" the service in purely economic terms,i.e. you can pay for it, you still (in a civilised society) have to "earn" the willing cooperation of the human service provider, which is not automatic. If you make no attempt to treat others as human beings, or you pull rank on them ("the customer is always right") then the service you'll get will probably not be very human.


Well said. Just throwing money at people doesn't earn you the right to anything.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

See, I was right. People are disappointed that others don't say "please" as often as they would like because they want people to beg them to do something. I think the fact that people don't say "please" is quite liberating. When my superior says to me "odor, I need you to have that memo on my office by Monday morning" I don't say to him (nor do I think this in my head) "Now what's the magic word mr. partner...?" I just do what it's my duty to do without having to be begged. In fact, if two partners gave me work and one of them said "Odor, I need this done by tomorrow" and the other said "Odor, will you please do this for tomorrow" I would probably put priority on the work for the guy that didn't say please and get that done first.

Also, since when does paying for something not earn you the right to whatever you are buying? Since when do you have to pay for something *and* beg someone to give it to you? What a bunch of bologne.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> See, I was right. People are disappointed that others don't say "please" as often as they would like because they want people to beg them to do something. I think the fact that people don't say "please" is quite liberating. When my superior says to me "odor, I need you to have that memo on my office by Monday morning" I don't say to him (nor do I think this in my head) "Now what's the magic word mr. partner...?" I just do what it's my duty to do without having to be begged. In fact, if two partners gave me work and one of them said "Odor, I need this done by tomorrow" and the other said "Odor, will you please do this for tomorrow" I would probably put priority on the work for the guy that didn't say please and get that done first.
> 
> Also, since when does paying for something not earn you the right to whatever you are buying? Since when do you have to pay for something *and* beg someone to give it to you? What a bunch of bologne.


In this sense your superior shouldn't have to say please. This is your job and within your job description, just do it. On the other hand if you ask a co-worker for help completing this task, that warrants a please.

_Deny Guilt, Demand Proof and Never Speak Without an Attorney!_​


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Trenditional_
> 
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> 
> ...


I agree with this. I'm not saying I never say please, but I think the starter of this thread was advocating using the word "please" in the context I presented in my hypothetical as well. "Please" has its place, such as when you are asking for a favor, but I think the starter of this thread and his supporters are advocating far more widespread use of the word than that.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> 
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> ...


 It is. If your superior doesn't say 'please' when he makes a request of you, then he is ill-mannered. The situation is analagous to the waiter-patron scenario.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> It is. If your superior doesn't say 'please' when he makes a request of you, then he is ill-mannered. The situation is analagous to the waiter-patron scenario.


Ill mannered according to you. I don't think of him as ill-mannered. We're there to do a job not to dilly dally with our "please" and "mother may I" and other such nonsense.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> 
> 
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The Trump Effect strikes again


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
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> 
> ...


Call it what you want to. I think that I work in one of the most collegial office environments anywhere. Everyone has respect for everyone and treats everyone well. But treating people well isn't about saying "please" for everything and "you're welcome." In fact, a large percentage of the time when people do say "please" they aren't thinking about what they are saying and just say it out of habit. I prefer the guy that comes into my office and says "hey odor I need this memo on my desk by 9 am tomorrow" to the guy that says "Mr. Eater, please have this on my desk tomorrow morning by 9 am." As someone said earlier, tone is a lot more important than the actual words that are used. To say that people are rude or inhuman or cretins because they don't use the word "please" as much anymore is over-simplification at best and just plain ignorant at worst.

I think some of you are very nostalgic for times gone by where people wore hats, addressed their superiors as 'sir' and were more polite in general. You talk of those times as if they were the "good old days." But, I assure you that times have changed for the better.

Here's a nice little photo from those days when guys used to wear suits all the time and were so much nicer to one another that you are all nostalgic for:


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_


Do you have any more offencive _non-sequiturs_ to add to your pile of flaming nonsense?


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
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Eh forget it. I'm done with this argument. Now, everyone please [}] go check out my bear thread and give me some opinions.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
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What would inspire you to post this nauseatingly disgusting image? Truly, the sickest thing that I've ever seen on this MB.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

I did it for the shock value.


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## Vettriano Man (Jun 30, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by VS_
> 
> It costs nothing to say please, thank you or bless someone when he sneezes.


...oh come on V, they don't even bother to put a hand up to their nose, so you can't expect them to apologise, I mean, really, that's asking rather a lot...


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> I did it for the shock value.


A gentleman to the last.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess real gentleman never bring up anything shocking or ugly, as true as it may be, to inspire thought and reflection among their peers, huh?

I know, we'd all just rather live in our nice litle world, with our expensive shoes, nice and polished, and our bespoke suits without having to worry about all the ugliness that's out there - because, after all, the worst problem facing the world today is that people wear baseball caps to restaurants and don't say "please" to there waiter when they ask for another soup spoon.

[V]


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Coolidge24_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess real gentleman never bring up anything shocking or ugly, as true as it may be, to inspire thought and reflection among their peers, huh?

I know, we'd all just rather live in our nice litle world, with our expensive shoes, nice and polished, and our bespoke suits without having to worry about all the ugliness that's out there - because, after all, the worst problem facing the world today is that people wear baseball caps to restaurants and don't say "please" to there waiter when they ask for another soup spoon.

[V]


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I completely agree that it is a mistake for us to forget the strides society has taken (and still needs to take) regarding the treatment many groups. However, I do not believe that one needs to post a graphic picture of that past violence to illustrate this point. While the gloating men in that picture should certainly be comdemned, their victim deserves better than to have his mutilated corpse displayed on a message board to illustrate a point.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by pleasehelp_
> 
> I completely agree that it is a mistake for us to forget the strides society has taken (and still needs to take) regarding the treatment many groups. However, I do not believe that one needs to post a graphic picture of that past violence to illustrate this point. While the gloating men in that picture should certainly be comdemned, their victim deserves better than to have his mutilated corpse displayed on a message board to illustrate a point.


Point well taken, but sometimes a picture says 1000 words and we shouldn't shield ourselves from the ugliness of humanity lest we forget that it exists.


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Odoreater,

There is an irony in your somehow defending your decision not to extend common courtesy and manners to your fellow human beings by associating those of us who do with inhumane, violent acts such as the one portrayed in the picture you chose to post. Those of us native to the South, generally, display better manners and more courtesy to our fellow beings than, say, people in New Jersey, or "Dirty Jersey," whatever that is.

I sinecrely doubt, however, that the overseers on plantations in the Old South ever said "please" to the slaves, and your attitude is redolent of that kind of relationship.

Many on this list are worldly and are not strangers to horror and violence. We bemoan "_the inhuman dearth of noble natures_" out there and, from what I can tell, fight against it by being kinder and gentler, more polite, and better dressed than a rapidly degenerating society would otherwise let us get by with. From what I have read and the characters I have "gotten to know" since I joined, the majority of us go the extra mile, not only in our appearence, but in our overall deportment to make the world a better place. I sincerely doubt that any of us defending the use of the word "please" on this thread would have ever participated in the lynch mob in your picture, which, by the way was not taken in the South.

The photo shows the burned body of William Brown and was taken in Omaha, Nebraska on September 28, 1919 during what came to be known as "Red Summer," as racial unrest broke out in 25 American cities. He had been brutally murdered before his body was burned. The mayor of Omaha was also lynched in this mob action but he survived. A total of 4 people were killed and more than 50 injured in the associated unrest. I fail to see how such a social breakdown, the likes of which happen throughout time and space, can be construed to support an argument in defense of not saying "please." I humbly suggest that your "shock value" post was designed to draw attention away from an otherwise unsupportable argument.

Please reconsider your position and join the rest of us in holding the line in favor of a polite, well mannered society. Why not?


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by jpeirpont_
> 
> I'm bothered by people's inability to say thank you. Mainly women who you open a door for.


I am much more irritated that most woman (most, not all) will not hold a door open, even if you are right behind them, they just let it slam in your face. Now I know they are just oblivious to the fact that someone may actually be behind them, still makes no difference to me, they can turn and look just like men are trained to. Ever notice than a man will hold a door open for another man as well.

Oh well..

Please and thank you, and you're welcome, too.

guit


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Liberty Ship_
> Those of us native to the South, generally, display better manners and more courtesy to our fellow beings than, say, people in New Jersey, or "Dirty Jersey," whatever that is.
> 
> We bemoan "_the inhuman dearth of noble natures_" out there and, from what I can tell, fight against it by being kinder and gentler, more polite, and better dressed than a rapidly degenerating society would otherwise let us get by with.


Thank you for the peas

--------------------
Death is...whimsical...today


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Liberty Ship,

Actually, the point of the picture was to show that, even though we may not say "please" as often as some people would like, that, in fact, our society is not "degenerating," that in fact, we live in much kindler gentler times than people want to admit, and that the "good old days" that everyone seems to crave so badly, the days when all "gentlemen" wore suits everywhere they went, were not as good as people like to believe that they were.

I can't tell you how many times peole have posted on this website about the degeneration of society, how our society is going downhill and how things used to be so much better. They'll post pictures of people walking around in nice suits from earlier times. I just want to make sure that people realize that things, as a whole, are much better today than they were in any of those times.

_I fought the law and the law won._


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by odoreater_
> 
> Liberty Ship,
> 
> ...


If you think that human beings no longer kill each other, you are sadly mistaken. Brown people are still being burnt alive by white people, only now it is in larger numbers due to better technology. Do you think that things today are 'better' merely because the nasty things are done from a distance, by pressing buttons?

This is merely a taste back of your own bizarre reasoning.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

With respect, I think it's better to look past the color of whomever is killing whom. There's plenty of black killing black, brown killing brown, white killing white, yellow killing yellow, red killing red... and it's all equally indefensible. Focusing on the color of whomever is killing whom only serves to divide people of good conscience who should be equally offended by all of it.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know that we still have a long way, but we've also made a lot of progress. I'd rather be living today than in any other time in history because I think things are better today - especially for immigrants, minorities, and have-nots in general. People often show their disapproval on this forum of the "nuovo riche" as if they resent that certain people no longer have a stranglehold on wealth and power, personally, I think it's a good thing.

_I fought the law and the law won._


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

It took awhile, but race has worked it's way into this conversation also.

I don't disagree, for many things today is better than yesterday. What I believe is happening is a deformalizing of our society. From clothing to manners, people feel that the least is acceptable. It's okay to go to a wedding in dockers and a polo shirt, its okay to not hold a door open for a woman, its okay to tell the person at the table next to you to, "Give me the pepper."

It's not that society is worse, its just that manners and patience has lessend. When was the last time you said "Good Moring" to someone as opposed to "mornin", when was the last time you said "Thank you maam or sir" or when was the last time you didn't have to go first at that intersection and let the other car go instead?

Please has disappeared and we can only change it with ourselves. More importantly, we can channge it with our children.

_Deny Guilt, Demand Proof and Never Speak Without an Attorney!_​


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Trenditional_
> 
> It took awhile, but race has worked it's way into this conversation also.
> 
> ...


 The social revolutions beginning in the 1910s tossed out the baby with the bath water. Society in the old sense has all but ceased to exist; culture has dramatically coarsened. The new curators of this self-congratulatory proledom ought to seek out good manners where they still exist, embalm them, and put them on display in their post-brutalist museums, so that future generations of techno-slobs might - for a brief moment - have their lifelong internal maelstrom broached by the quiet epiphany that at least some human beings once were civilised.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Trenditional_
> 
> It took awhile, but race has worked it's way into this conversation also.
> 
> ...


I can agree with most of this. Great post.

_I fought the law and the law won._


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

Bravo, Trenditional!


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by JLPWCXIII_
> 
> embalm them,


Quite.

--------------------
Death is...whimsical...today


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Wow, today in a conversation with a secretary I realized that I do use the word please when I'm not really thinking about it. So, though in theory I don't think that it's necessary to use this word, in practice I actually use it. So, I guess that makes me a hypocrite and unconsciously polite. Oh well.

By the way, I also find that using people's name when you talk to them also makes them feel good.

Like saying "O.k. Sara, thank you very much."

_I fought the law and the law won._​


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