# Wearing Suits in the Summer Heat



## kdm57 (Mar 16, 2007)

There was a thread on this topic but it was closed a couple months ago. 

There was a good article on this topic in the Washington Post three summers ago. Thought the forum would enjoy it:


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

Those guys aren't human. "I'm a slave to fashion" pffft, more like "I'm a nutball". :icon_smile_big: I'm a slave to _style_, not fashion. But then again I can't stand the heat. Invited to an outside wedding in August? .."Regrettably, I won't be able to make it" (my sister was upset I didn't attend, what's that about? :devil. I'd rather set myself on fire and put it out with a bag full of nickels than wear a suit in 96F plus humidity.

Now, winter is another story. I can wear shorts and a T-shirt in a blizzard with -35F and go, "Is it me or is it a bit warm out today?" :icon_smile_wink:

Now it's summer on Long Island. I wish I could wear my suits, stupid summer.:crazy:


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Since air conditioning was invented, it's a non-issue.


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

In the sun, a seersucker jacket (for example) is cooler than just shirtsleeves, which in turn is cooler than a T shirt. In the shade, naked is cooler.


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## cowboyjack (May 18, 2008)

Bird's View,

Exactly. I recently wore a navy blue suit with a straw hat to an outdoor afternoon wedding and it was about 95 degrees out when it all started, PLUS we were sitting in the sun. Was I perspiring? You bet. Was I overly uncomfortable? Far less than I would have been in a pair of shorts and t-shirt out in the same sun. 

I've been in Washington D.C. in August walking about... Linen trousers, linen blazer, thin cotton shirt, all very breezy...

The one photograph with the Post article: that's a very dapper sartorial expression.

When I was younger and we worked outside dark-to-dark in the sun, often in over 100 degree heat, it was jeans, long sleeve shirts and felt cowboy hats, plus bandanas, all the way. Seemed hot for the first hour, but I assure you after a few hours you were gosh darn glad you had it on.


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## Apthorpe (Apr 8, 2008)

What is the propriety of wearing poplin, seersucker or linen suits in a business setting? When I look around the office (everyone wears a suit and tie, and predominately in darker colors) I don't see anyone wearing those fabrics. I suppose they could be wearing lighter weight or open weave wool. A/C helps, but I find it to be very uncomfortable to walk a few blocks to lunch in a 10 oz. navy worsted suit. I'm thinking about starting a trend. Or maybe I'll be asked to clean out my desk.


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## Green3 (Apr 8, 2008)

Apthorpe said:


> What is the propriety of wearing poplin, seersucker or linen suits in a business setting? When I look around the office (everyone wears a suit and tie, and predominately in darker colors) I don't see anyone wearing those fabrics. I suppose they could be wearing lighter weight or open weave wool. A/C helps, but I find it to be very uncomfortable to walk a few blocks to lunch in a 10 oz. navy worsted suit. I'm thinking about starting a trend. Or maybe I'll be asked to clean out my desk.


I think the way to start is with a Navy Poplin.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

I always thought navy poplin was a contradiction in seasons.
Never had the guts to get one, because it seems like looking for something to negate heat so you can create more.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Summer suits are more informal, and if your office stays formal during the summer, then, well, that might be that.


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## S. Kelly (Jan 19, 2008)

My 82 year old uncle HAD the same attitude. 4 years ago, all he talked about were the men who shed their suitcoats in the 95 degree heat, but not him. AND, he walked home 2 miles from his bank board meeting in his suit and tie. I told him he was asking for heat stroke or worse. He scoffed, claimed the other men were weak, but 2 weeks later he had a heart attack. Since his triple bypass, he dresses sensibly in the heat.


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## Andy W (Jan 18, 2007)

Fairlane said:


> Those guys aren't human. "I'm a slave to fashion" pffft, more like "I'm a nutball". :icon_smile_big: I'm a slave to _style_, not fashion. But then again I can't stand the heat. Invited to an outside wedding in August? .."Regrettably, I won't be able to make it" (my sister was upset I didn't attend, what's that about? :devil. I'd rather set myself on fire and put it out with a bag full of nickels than wear a suit in 96F plus humidity.
> 
> Now, winter is another story. I can wear shorts and a T-shirt in a blizzard with -35F and go, "Is it me or is it a bit warm out today?" :icon_smile_wink:
> 
> Now it's summer on Long Island. I wish I could wear my suits, stupid summer.:crazy:


Word!


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

There is a reason why Bedouins in the desert traditionally dress in heavy wools:



















That is because it protects them from the heat. Again, when wearing a coat in summer, the same principles apply. A coat made of a summer wool (or blended with mohair) that breathes well should keep you keep you cooler in the harshest heat than running around in your underwear in the modern manner (t-shirts being underwear).

The reason modern dress consists of underwear for heat wave and snow storm is because we have become over reliant on heating and air conditioning to keep us comfortable. The end result is more energy consumption and CO2 emissions.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Sator said:


> There is a reason why Bedouins in the desert traditionally dress in heavy wools:


Are you sure it's not because it gets cold in the desert in the winter, or because they don't have anything else to make clothes out of?


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

But isn't clothing worn by Bedouins and other nomadic peoples substantially different in design that Western tailored clothing? If what you are saying is true, Sator, why do many of us perspire profusely in summer humidity (and I've lived in Chicago and the Deep South), even when wearing the most lightweight fabrics - cotton, linen, tropical weight wool, etc.?

Perhaps wearing mohair works for Bedouins, etc. because (unlike many of us here in the States) they do live in a humid environment.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

See second of above two illustrations. Surface temperature of 47 C = 116 F


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

LD111134 said:


> But isn't clothing worn by Bedouins and other nomadic peoples substantially different in design that Western tailored clothing...if what you are saying is true, how come so many of us perspire profusely in summer humidity (at least hear in Chicago), even when wearing the most lightweight fabrics - cotton, linen, tropical weight wool, etc.
> 
> Perhaps wearing mohair works for Bedouins, etc. because (unlike many of us here in the States) they do live in a humid environment.


I suggest looking at how people dressed in Chicago in the pre-air conditioning era. Although it is assumed that suffering was imposed by rigid imposition of draconian social codes, I strongly question if that is entirely accurate. People were also much smarter with fabrics and cuts. I suspect we CO2 emitting moderns are the real fools for thinking that nakedness = comfort.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Well, some of us "moderns" don't want to smell like we have a desert Arab's organic, earth-friendly, 100% natural air conditioning system...


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## Apthorpe (Apr 8, 2008)

Sator,

Is it the weight or weave that makes a summer wool cooler?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Apthorpe said:


> Sator,
> 
> Is it the weight or weave that makes a summer wool cooler?


Both + the fibre


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Regardless of the time of the year, one can wear a suit, without sacrificing comfort. In the winter, it's wool and during the summer months, it's seersucker, cotton poplin and tropical weight wool. Can't say I never sweat but, I don't appear worse off than the folks wearing the T-shirts.


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## McKay (Jun 13, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> during the summer months, it's seersucker, cotton poplin and tropical weight wool.


Which of those three would you say is best?


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

McKay said:


> Which of those three would you say is best?


It is dependent on so many other variables that it becomes difficult to compare. Firstly, it depends weight and each mill's specific weave - it isn't just about fibres. It also become dependent on the construction of the coat. Half and quarter lined coats run cooler.


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## gusarapo (May 22, 2005)

*Humidity in the Desert*

There is very little humidity in the desert, the same rules do not apply.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

This may be a silly question, but is there some (good) reason that you don't see unlined (or, you know, quarter-lined, really) jackets in tropical-weight wools?


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Sator said:


> ... we CO2 emitting moderns ...


Hate to break it to you, but everyone and almost everything alive has always emitted CO2. Profusely.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

PedanticTurkey said:


> This may be a silly question, but is there some (good) reason that you don't see unlined (or, you know, quarter-lined, really) jackets in tropical-weight wools?


Yes, because you didn't ask your tailor to make it that way.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

I was expecting the answer to be something about drape or wrinkles.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

PedanticTurkey said:


> I was expecting the answer to be something about drape or wrinkles.


Tropical wool drapes a bit better than cotton and wrinkles less than linen. Yet both of the latter are perfectly suitable for half or quarter lined summer coats.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

I meant in reference to the lining or lack of it.


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## YYZ-LHR (Jul 2, 2007)

Preu Pummel said:


> Hate to break it to you, but everyone and almost everything alive has always emitted CO2. Profusely.


Those of us that live in moderate climates and dress appropriately for the season such that we can do without air conditioning or extensive heating, that buy fewer but longer-lasting goods, and that reside where we can stroll or cycle to work and the shops, unquestionably consume fewer resources than those that choose to live otherwise. Whatever your politics or willingness to trust science reporting, that has to be a good thing. CO2 emissions has become a convenient shorthand, but you'd get the same result if you thought in terms of tonnes of coal, barrels of oil, or units of logs.



PedanticTurkey said:


> This may be a silly question, but is there some (good) reason that you don't see unlined (or, you know, quarter-lined, really) jackets in tropical-weight wools?


I believe Gieves & Hawkes is currently carrying a few lightweight wool suits with half- or quarter-lining.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

PedanticTurkey said:


> I meant in reference to the lining or lack of it.


Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

YYZ-LHR said:


> Those of us that live in moderate climates and dress appropriately for the season such that we can do without air conditioning or extensive heating, and live where we can stroll or cycle to work and the shops, unquestionably consume fewer resources than those that choose to live otherwise. Whatever your politics or willingness to trust mainstream science, that has to be a good thing.


Yes, reducing your electrical bill is a good thing at a domestic, state or national level. Our fore bearers managed perfectly well without turning every room into Siberia or Honolulu. Dressing for the climate is a much more pleasant way of doing things. I see the seasonal wardrobe as a wonderful thing in many ways.

Also, given the fact that both Republican and Democrat presidential candidates are claiming superiority in their policy towards tackling the threat of global warming from CO2 emissions, I must say I am surprised to hear murmurings which threaten to drive this thread straight to the dumping bin of the Interchange.


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## sjm (Oct 6, 2007)

*linen clouds with polyester linings*

why are so few off-the-rack suits not half or quarter lined, or even unstructured and unlined?

am i mad to think that a light and airy seersucker suit, lined in rayon, is little better than wearing a rubber body-condom? does not the man-made lining undo the virtue of a linen or cotton jacket?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

PedanticTurkey said:


> This may be a silly question, but is there some (good) reason that you don't see unlined (or, you know, quarter-lined, really) jackets in tropical-weight wools?


The lining helps the drape. Also, for many tropicals, the weave isn't porous enough to benefit from the lack of lining. Might as well suck it up.

My current preferences for heat/humidity: linen 1/4 lined suit (SB), Super 120s fresco (DB). Linen/cotton shirts also help distribute the heat and moisture in a more equitable manner.


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

sjm said:


> am i mad to think that a light and airy seersucker suit, lined in rayon, is little better than wearing a rubber body-condom? does not the man-made lining undo the virtue of a linen or cotton jacket?


The less lining, the better, but rayon is not bad. Polyester is bad.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

I had on a blazer in 114F heat driving to work in a car without air conditioning and thought it odd that I felt warm, but not hot. I suppose it is up to the individual's tolerance of heat.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

I've been wearing one of those stays-cool seersucker suits from Joie Banks, and it's a LOT cooler than wearing a t-shirt or merely a dress shirt in the 90ºF sun. Not sure exactly why or how it works, but it really keeps me nice in the heat. I wonder if they will make a cheap Poplin suit with that lining soon.

The tropical wool from Bookster also works very well, but not as well as the seersucker. It's also a great suit for hot sun, the Avon blue. The lining might be the most heat-containing part of that suit, because the wool is so light.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I agree that a good Super 100s tropical wool is much cooler then seersucker or poplin. Poplin doesn't wrinkle but doesn't seem to breathe all that well either. Seersucker is less heavy on the body, but doesn't seem as cool as wool. Linen just looks like hell after an hour.


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## sjm (Oct 6, 2007)

*stays-cool versus normal*

_


Preu Pummel said:



I've been wearing one of those stays-cool seersucker suits from Joie Banks, and it's a LOT cooler than wearing a t-shirt or merely a dress shirt in the 90ºF sun. Not sure exactly why or how it works, but it really keeps me nice in the heat.

Click to expand...

_


Preu Pummel said:


> > Preu Pummel, the stays-cool lining roughly doubles the price of the suit. have you worn a conventional Jos Banks seersucker, and does this make a difference?
> >
> > I am bound for work in the Caribbean and am most grateful for the wisdom shared here. There, and in Nigeria or on the Swahili Coast, or in India -- all places in which i work -- any way to fight the heat and humidity is a God-send.


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## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

I have always found a light coloured linen suit to be cooler in the heat than shorts and tee shirt (unless I'm doing hard physical exercise of course), probably because 1. the light colour reflects the sunlight and heat better than skin; 2. the skin is covered up so doesn't burn so much and 3. the linen acts as a 'wick' to evaporate perspiration. Don't forget also to wear a light coloured hat such as a panama in the heat - I find this keeps one cooler as well. 

I remember dressing like this at a polo match on an open stand in 95 degree heat and high humidity, and whilst it was uncomfortable, it was not intolerable. The reason being the club had a jacket and tie dress code, which unsurprisingly was waived later that day...


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## Bracemaker (May 11, 2005)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Since air conditioning was invented, it's a non-issue.


Fine when it works.
I was exhibiting our products at Pitti Uomo in Florence last week when the temperature reached 37 deg C (or 98 F ) and we started getting 'brown-outs'...so the organisers decided that the connecting hall full of Italians should be kept suitably chilled...and our section of British menswear was considered expendable, so our air con was turned off. Stiff upper lips trembled, a river of perspiration issued forth from Scottish knitwear manufacturers and English topcoat makers alike. We bracemakers are made of sterner stuff, tried to be stoical, what what, but after I had wrung out my tie for the nth time... 
I may have to resign my membership of AskAndy as I removed my jacket and thereby exposed my braces to public view. I am so ashamed.


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## jauburn (Jun 15, 2008)

kdm57 said:


> There was a thread on this topic but it was closed a couple months ago.
> 
> There was a good article on this topic in the Washington Post three summers ago. Thought the forum would enjoy it:


Those folks with suits on in this heat are just sad. They're all hiding something--discomfort with their bodies, probably.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I disagree. They feel the need or have the need to wear nice clothes and they did so.

Your statement is every bit as judgemental as those of someone who disparages others because their hair is long or whatever.


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## rssmsvc (Aug 5, 2004)

PedanticTurkey said:


> This may be a silly question, but is there some (good) reason that you don't see unlined (or, you know, quarter-lined, really) jackets in tropical-weight wools?


You could get a jacket made like that, but I do have a few Belvest and Oxxford sportcoats and suits in the skeleton lining and in tropical weight. They are comfortable but the drape isn't that great.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

sjm said:


> Preu Pummel, the stays-cool lining roughly doubles the price of the suit. have you worn a conventional Jos Banks seersucker, and does this make a difference?


I just donned a NON-stays cool Jos A Banks yesterday. It definitely is a different experience. The older version isn't bad at all, but definitely not as cooling. Their older lining is a little thicker, I think.

Either jacket was far cooler than going sans jacket in the sun/heat. You would deduce the opposite was true, but in light seersucker it really is more pleasant to keep the clothes on.

If you are going into severe, constant tropical conditions I would get that slight edge with the stays-cool lining. Take no chances. The pity is that they will all be $99 come December, as they tend to do.


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## rssmsvc (Aug 5, 2004)

LD111134;777254 I've lived in Chicago and the Deep South) said:


> I thought I read that one of the great things of having a fully canvassed jacket as opposed to a fused jacket is that body heat exchange is better especially with a quarter lining. I find poplin suits to be really hot while wool suits in light colors and weights keep me comfortable.
> 
> The one hint and I hope this is not crude is to apply talcum powder down below in the summer months to prevent your boxers from sticking and keep cool.


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## JayJay (Oct 8, 2007)

sjm said:


> why are so few off-the-rack suits not half or quarter lined, or even unstructured and unlined?
> 
> am i mad to think that a light and airy seersucker suit, lined in rayon, is little better than wearing a rubber body-condom? does not the man-made lining undo the virtue of a linen or cotton jacket?


I have 3 summer suits and 2 blazers with half linings. The half linings really make a difference.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

Preu Pummel said:


> I just donned a NON-stays cool Jos A Banks yesterday. It definitely is a different experience. The older version isn't bad at all, but definitely not as cooling. Their older lining is a little thicker, I think.
> 
> Either jacket was far cooler than going sans jacket in the sun/heat. You would deduce the opposite was true, but in light seersucker it really is more pleasant to keep the clothes on.
> 
> If you are going into severe, constant tropical conditions I would get that slight edge with the stays-cool lining. Take no chances. The pity is that they will all be $99 come December, as they tend to do.


I hope their stays cool wool suits come down to the $100 area this winter too. I think I can even wear them in the winter and if they are really that "cool" then I wear a topcoat.


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## sjm (Oct 6, 2007)

*thank you*

gentlemen,

thank you for the good advice!!

sjm


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

sjm said:


> why are so few off-the-rack suits not half or quarter lined, or even unstructured and unlined?


Because to the uneducated masses it looks like the maker is taking shortcuts by skimping on the amount of lining. In actual fact, it takes more work, as the unlined parts need to be finished more neatly rather than be hidden by lining.


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

*I guess I am just jealous*

I cannot see myself putting on a stays cool or seersucker or any type of tropical weight suit or sportcoat in the summer. I take my hat off to you guys who can, but it's just too uncomfortable to me. Those of you who have said certain suits are even cooler than a t-shirt and shirts, no offense but my first reaction was _"BULLSHIT!!"_ :icon_smile_big: I can understand (maybe) the technology in some of the fabrics may help with moisture and wicking it away better, but heat shunting? No way. Don't believe it.

Like I said, I wish I could be comfortable in summer. I work indoors all day with A/C but still, even with short sleeves on (no tie) I can get uncomfortable. Even when I go out to pick up my lunch, I'm only walking for maybe 10 minutes, and even then I'm dying when it's that hot out. Now you want me to put on a jacket? Uh, I don't think so? :icon_smile_wink:

Of course, I don't mean to bash anyone, and honestly, I haven't had the opportunity to try on outside for any length of time these 'stay cool' tropical weight jackets. But something tells me that I am asking for trouble.

Anyone got a 44R I can borrow? HAHA :icon_smile_big:


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

By the same logic, blacksmiths and welders should work naked.


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## Victor123 (Jun 18, 2008)

Apthorpe said:


> What is the propriety of wearing poplin, seersucker or linen suits in a business setting? When I look around the office (everyone wears a suit and tie, and predominately in darker colors) I don't see anyone wearing those fabrics. I suppose they could be wearing lighter weight or open weave wool. A/C helps, but I find it to be very uncomfortable to walk a few blocks to lunch in a 10 oz. navy worsted suit. I'm thinking about starting a trend. Or maybe I'll be asked to clean out my desk.


Wear a black cotton suit.


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## cowboyjack (May 18, 2008)

Partially, I think heat is largely mind over matter; if you don't mind, it doesn't matter. I was at a family funeral Tuesday late morning and the temp was nearing 100 degrees at the graveside service. Was it hot? You betcha. But people's reaction to the heat varied from quiet stoicism and a focus on why we were there to out and out drama.


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

I've spoken to a lot of "old timers" here in Chicago and down in Memphis,and they've told me that they suffered wearing suits/ties during sweltering summers "back in the day" (pre-air conditioning)...and they told me that they'd wear cotton or lightweight wool suits but that they'd would nevertheless be extremely uncomfortable, smelly and covered in perspiration. 

As an anecdote, watch the movie "12 Angry Men" from 1957. All of the men are suffering in the summer heat and take off their ties and undo their shirt collars...except the uptight, supercilious character played by the great E. G. Marshall (whom the other jurors view as a pretentious freak who never breaks a swat and stays in full dress the entire time).


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Fairlane said:


> Those of you who have said certain suits are even cooler than a t-shirt and shirts, no offense but my first reaction was _"BULLSHIT!!"_


Oh, you mean ME.

Have you worn one?
No.

Well, there's your bullshit. You slipped in your own manure.

A seersucker jacket reflects heat and light, and it covers the flesh from direct sunlight so you don't absorb any direct heat. The fabric breathes quite well. It is light weight. And I am guessing that lining has some fancy thought behind how it helps the suit breath, the lining seeming to be a mesh of either silk or plastic.

I thought it was a far shot or kook hype, but it works. I experienced it several times this summer in 80ºF+ heat and sun. That suit's going to get heavy wear this season.

Go down to a Jos A. Banks store and check it out, if you want to see. Take a hot sunny day and ask the guys if you can go out in the jacket and hang out in front of the store for a few minutes. It won;t air condition you, but it will protect you and keep you at a lower temp than having bare flesh in the sun.


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## Infrasonic (May 18, 2007)

Sator said:


> There is a reason why Bedouins in the desert traditionally dress in heavy wools:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RE piccy 2. As their clothing is one piece and loose fit, isn't most of the cooling efficiency being achieved via the hot air rising, thereby drawing in the cooler air nearer the ground? I believe some architects exploit the same principles with buildings and extraction.

With western dress and the sealed mid-point, it won't work as well, surely? (although it does raise the interesting point that perhaps braces are more thermally beneficial than belts..:icon_smile_big


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

Preu Pummel said:


> Oh, you mean ME.
> 
> Have you worn one?
> No.
> ...


Sorry, Preu, hope I didn't offend. Thanks for the advice. Maybe I should go and see how it is. If it works, definitely worth trying if I get roped into some event during the high heat days of summer that require a suit. Most garments I have are for the winter months.

Let me ask this, what about sportcoats? Do you have any recommendations for lightweight/summer weight sportcoats? Other than the aforementioned seersucker jackets? Or are their limited options for sportcoats during the summer months?


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

LD111134 said:


> I've spoken to a lot of "old timers" here in Chicago and down in Memphis,and they've told me that they suffered wearing suits/ties during sweltering summers "back in the day" (pre-air conditioning)...and they told me that they'd wear cotton or lightweight wool suits but that they'd would nevertheless be extremely uncomfortable, smelly and covered in perspiration.
> 
> As an anecdote, watch the movie "12 Angry Men" from 1957. All of the men are suffering in the summer heat and take off their ties and undo their shirt collars...except the uptight, supercilious character played by the great E. G. Marshall (whom the other jurors view as a pretentious freak who never breaks a swat and stays in full dress the entire time).


Am I the only one who still thought the kid was guilty by the end of the movie?


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## LD111134 (Dec 21, 2007)

The kid was certainly guilty!


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## cowboyjack (May 18, 2008)

Great photo of the Bedouins. They also wore woolens because they could weave them from their own flocks of sheep or goats. As cotton cloth became more commercially available, I'd wonder if there was a change in material for their ingenious clothing?


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

LD111134 said:


> The kid was certainly guilty!


Good. I'm glad I'm not the only one who wouldn't discount two witnesses and overwhelming circumstantial evidence based on idle speculation.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

LD111134 said:


> The kid was certainly guilty!


He may well have been, but not "certainly" so. Experts know that eyewitness accounts are famously unreliable, and the two in this case were especially shaky. The seemingly most reliable evidence, the knife, fell apart when it became clear that it was commonplace. The jury reached the right verdict given the evidence. The kid was likely guilty, but the evidence did not establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, at least in my view.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

First of all, Henry Fonda had no business investigating the case on his own. That by itself was enough for a mistrial. I'd have gotten out of that jury room in time to catch _my_ ball game. This is why I never get to be on juries...

Second--the key word is _reasonable_ doubt. The kid bought the exact same knife a few hours before it was used to kill his father (and left in the body), then conveniently lost it. Then the ridiculous speculation about the old man's mobility and the woman's eyesight--I was shouting at the television by the end of the movie.


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## Mondiale (Jan 24, 2008)

Not to drive this thread entirely off-topic, but eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable for a variety of reasons, some having to do with bio-psycho-social factors, others related to police procedures.

See for instance:

https://innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php

https://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullp...cp=1&sq=i was certain, but i was wrong&st=cse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_identification#cite_note-0

Skepticism is warranted...even in movies :icon_smile_wink:


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

Witnesses can be unreliable when it comes to identifying _strangers_. And, even then, doubt would only be reasonable in my mind if there was a lack of corroborating evidence.

In this case there's overwhelming corroborative evidence and two witnesses who were both in a position where they were likely very familiar with the defendant.

Hang 'em.


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## Mondiale (Jan 24, 2008)

And to address the actual topic of the thread: I'm spending the summer in DC, and I wear lightweight suits everyday. In my experience, they are unquestionably hotter. 

It might well be somewhat different where the direct radiant energy from the sun is a major factor (as opposed to the air temperature). Certainly when I was in the Sahara, as much as I was sweating (I was wearing wicking material t-shirt and pants), the actual feeling of the sun on my skin was intense. That said, when I think back, most of the native population weren't swathed in clothes (cotton or wool) either.


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## Mondiale (Jan 24, 2008)

PedanticTurkey said:


> Witnesses can be unreliable when it comes to identifying _strangers_. And, even then, doubt would only be reasonable in my mind if there was a lack of corroborating evidence.
> 
> In this case there's overwhelming corroborative evidence and two witnesses who were both in a position where they were likely very familiar with the defendant.
> 
> Hang 'em.


Here's a case of someone who was somewhat known to the witnesses, was falsely convicted, and then exonerated by DNA in a horrific case of child rape:

And hey, Illinois was 'hanging 'em', right up until they started exonerating death row inmates with DNA evidence (which is, of course, not infallible, but much more reliable, at least for exclusion purposes).


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

The best example you can come up with is a small child who was attacked in the middle of the night?


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Fairlane said:


> Sorry, Preu, hope I didn't offend.
> 
> Let me ask this, what about sportcoats? Do you have any recommendations for lightweight/summer weight sportcoats?


I wasn't offended by the pointed attack, just by the wimpy 'non-name dropping'. You can tell people they are full of --it, just make your point. Otherwise why even post the point?

I, for some sick reason, always buy suits. Must be a mania. 16 suits, no odd jackets. Even I 'wtf' ,myself on that. But, I did purchase a few colors of Poplin for cheap summer suiting, and I love those too. Very good, but not stay-cool Jos A. Banks stuff. The lighter poplin is quite nice! It doesn't have the sartorial setbacks of seersucker, and isn't quite as cool, but is far better than a conventional wool suit jacket. Navy poplin makes little sense to me, so I suggest stone, oyster, khaki, etc. White seems a little too 'Fantasy island' for my liking.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Mondiale said:


> It might well be somewhat different where the direct radiant energy from the sun is a major factor (as opposed to the air temperature).


I think this is what is being missed. Of course if you are out in the direct sunlight you would be better served by covering your skin with airy, light colored, light weight clothing to deflect the direct rays of the sun; both from a comfort and from a health aspect.

This would not apply if we were merely talking air temperature such as being indoors or at night or outside out of the direct sunlight. In fact it would be cooler without the extra clothing in those situations.

I suspect that most men wearing suits are not outside in the direct sunlight for any significant period of time during an average day. I know there are exceptions and I'm just speaking of the average office worker.

Cruiser


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

Fairlane said:


> Let me ask this, what about sportcoats? Do you have any recommendations for lightweight/summer weight sportcoats? Other than the aforementioned seersucker jackets? Or are their limited options for sportcoats during the summer months?


Yes. A sport jacket is like a suit jacket. They make sport jackets quarter or half lined of cotton or linen or blends to make them lighter weight. I like summer sport jackets better because they are more casual. And I think sport jackets should be more casual because you might as well wear a suit if you need to dress up. I think half lined cotton sport jackets with patch packets is a good casual summer look.


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

Personally, I always found T-shirts to be warm at the neck compared to a polo shirt.

Anyway,

A linen shirt is *easily *cooler than a cotton T-shirt. An unlined lightweight wool jacket over that shirt makes little to no difference.

Honestly, I can't think of a cooler way to dress than my unlined summer suit teamed up with one of my linen shirts.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

Oh, and for recommendations lightweight sport jackets are everywhere. I've seen them at JAB, Lands End, BB, and higher brands on STP. They are everywhere. I went to BB on Thursday to look at some things before their sale ended. One of things I had hoped to get on sale was their Madras sport jacket, but they didn't have any. So now I'm researching some madras options online to see if I can find a better deal than BB's website. Madras appears to a good alternative to wearing seersucker every day. Though people look at me oddly enough in seersucker.


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## yellow braces (Jul 28, 2007)

Infrasonic said:


> RE piccy 2. As their clothing is one piece and loose fit, isn't most of the cooling efficiency being achieved via the hot air rising, thereby drawing in the cooler air nearer the ground? I believe some architects exploit the same principles with buildings and extraction.
> 
> With western dress and the sealed mid-point, it won't work as well, surely? (although it does raise the interesting point that perhaps braces are more thermally beneficial than belts..:icon_smile_big


Braces are indeed more thermally beneficial than belts. Looser fitting trousers or jeans are so much more comfortable in hot weather for the very reason you give. Also too tight a waistband rather irritates at any time, but especially hot weather. I have just purchased my first ever pair of dungarees. Because they are so loose a fit, they are extremely comfortable even if not fasionable.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

yellow braces said:


> Braces are indeed more thermally beneficial than belts. Looser fitting trousers or jeans are so much more comfortable in hot weather for the very reason you give.


Agreed. This summer is going to make me rip all the belt loops from my pants. Braces are 'it' for me. I used to do half & half, half days of the week with belts.


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

Preu Pummel said:


> I wasn't offended by the pointed attack, just by the wimpy 'non-name dropping'. You can tell people they are full of --it, just make your point. Otherwise why even post the point?
> 
> I, for some sick reason, always buy suits. Must be a mania. 16 suits, no odd jackets. Even I 'wtf' ,myself on that. But, I did purchase a few colors of Poplin for cheap summer suiting, and I love those too. Very good, but not stay-cool Jos A. Banks stuff. The lighter poplin is quite nice! It doesn't have the sartorial setbacks of seersucker, and isn't quite as cool, but is far better than a conventional wool suit jacket. Navy poplin makes little sense to me, so I suggest stone, oyster, khaki, etc. White seems a little too 'Fantasy island' for my liking.


Hehe, didn't really mean to point it at _you_, just what you said :icon_smile_big: yeah it was pretty wimpy of me not to name names, but I get in trouble if I do. 

Gotta agee with Skysov too. Which makes me want to ask this question even for fear of getting flamed; what's the difference between deciding on a blazer, a suit jacket and a sportcoat? If you're going to _not_ match the jacket with the pants, (obviously) as in a suit, other than the buttons on the blazer and a sportcoat being more casual, and the materials, what makes one want to grab a navy blazer as opposed to the other two?


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Fairlane said:


> Which makes me want to ask this question even for fear of getting flamed; what's the difference between deciding on a blazer, a suit jacket and a sportcoat? If you're going to _not_ match the jacket with the pants, (obviously) as in a suit, other than the buttons on the blazer and a sportcoat being more casual, and the materials, what makes one want to grab a navy blazer as opposed to the other two?


No one would flame you for that... well, maybe. There are some pretty bellicose folks on here.

I always thought of the suit jacket as more formal business attire.
Blazer less formal business attire, maybe without flaps.
Sportcoat is even less formal and meant for casual events, in a wider variety of patterns and colors.

But they all mix and match these days. If you are in a very strict business like law, accounting, stocks, etc, you wouldn't wear a sportcoat or blazer to the office. Such jobs need the superior image of a suit in most cases, but it also depends on the office and clients and how they perceive clothes in relation to the job. You could wear a blazer/sportscoat to most jobs and seem very well dressed these days. I use my suit coats as odd jackets, but anally it would be best to have patch pockets or more casual details for a casual wear jacket.

I'm interested to see how others would answer that. Some guys must have very particular recognition of what makes a blazer, sportcoat, suit jacket, and how they are perceived in casual and work environments.


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## SkySov (Mar 17, 2008)

I don't know any exact rules. But from shopping around for sport jackets a lot it seems the difference is blazers are solid in color with metal buttons like brass or pewter. I think traditionally blazers are navy with gold colored buttons, but I like silver colored better. There are also labels that call black and tan solid jackets blazers. And they all have flap pockets like suit jackets, which I guess makes them more formal than sport jackets. Sports jackets buttons match the jacket, and aren't a metal. Corozo or something. And they have cool patterns like houndstooth, herringbone, or windowpane. There are a lot of them. Sport jacket patterns can look the same but be slightly different. Like one can be tan with a grayish windowpane and another can have more navy and red windowpane. Which can make matching them more fun than suits :icon_smile_big:
Example:


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

^^Beautiful photographs.^^


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

It should be noted for the record, the timeless adage, that proper dress was not ever supposed to be comfortable in warmer weather.


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

Mr. Pipps said:


> It should be noted for the record, the timeless adage, that proper dress was not ever supposed to be comfortable in warmer weather.


.

I find that hysterical, but I see your point. It's like "YOU MUST SUFFER!" :icon_smile_wink:Haha)Thanks to Mr. Pummel and Skysov for your clarifications. I've read that some folks who don't like the big blazer buttons that they can have different ones put on, but I keep asking myself, what would be the point, then it's just a navy suit jacket, right?

I'm a public librarian and usually dress up for the winter, vest and all. I like it. There's only two other males on staff, one being a colleague and the other the director, (and I can say I dress better than both, thanks to you guys here :icon_smile_wink and neither of them wear suits, George (the director) sometimes does when he's going to an important meeting, but normally, no. Most patrons think _I'm the director_. Anyway, that's why I asked about sportcoats, I thought maybe given my job, a suit would be overkill.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Fairlane said:


> .I've read that some folks who don't like the big blazer buttons that they can have different ones put on, but I keep asking myself, what would be the point, then it's just a navy suit jacket, right?.


Although off topic, I think it's the bright gold buttons that some object to on blazers. I know I do. That's why my blazers both have pewter colored metal buttons that look nothing like a suit coat buttons, but aren't bright and shiny like the typical blazer buttons. Now I return you to the thread. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Fairlane said:


> .
> I find that hysterical, but I see your point. It's like "YOU MUST SUFFER!" :icon_smile_wink:Haha).


It does almost seem sadistic, doesn't it!

I remember my mother telling me a story of when she worked in an office as a teenage, and how a colleague took off his suit jacket at his desk during the summer, and was called into the manager's office to explain himself.

Then again, there was a day when a man wouldn't be seen in the street without a tie, a jacket, and a hat.

How times have changed.


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

Mr. Pipps said:


> It does almost seem sadistic, doesn't it!
> 
> I remember my mother telling me a story of when she worked in an office as a teenage, and how a colleague took off his suit jacket at his desk during the summer, and was called into the manager's office to explain himself.
> 
> ...


Thank God I wasn't born around those times. I would have wanted to set myself on fire and put it out with a bag of nickels. Jeez, called into the office. "UM, CAUSE IT'S HOTTER THAN HELL IN HERE?" :icon_smile_big:


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## fashionfrog (Jun 14, 2008)

I always say men have it easier than women in every aspect of life. But I have to give it to you guys on this one&#8230; 

poor babies&#8230; some men have to dress in full suited gear every work day of their lives even if it's a million degrees outside. 

I'm glad that most of you are good troopers and just say air conditioning is the solution but what if you have to take a walk for lunch? or God forbid you have to run an errand in the smoldering heat. 

I think formally dressed men look absolutely gorgeous but those sweat beads and cringing faces really clash with the suits.


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## sjm (Oct 6, 2007)

*nomad about you, dear*



Sator said:


> There is a reason why Bedouins in the desert traditionally dress in heavy wools:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

I for one would like an update sjm, so let us know how the seersuckers go. Interesting point about how the fabric protects the limbs. I can see that happening if there is some sort of breeze which would vent out any built up hot air between you and your suit, but when no breeze is around, it's gonna get hot. No?

Obviously the only thing left for me to do is to suck it up and actually try to wear one:icon_smile_wink:


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Fairlane said:


> Obviously the only thing left for me to do is to suck it up and actually try to wear one:icon_smile_wink:


Aw, man. I thought you would necro-post to tell us you tried one on and found it AWFUL/AWSOME. I am curious to know how you rate one when you try it out on a test run.

My seersucker is worn weekly, minimum, and the sweat is minimal as well. Many times I've worn it while riding a bicycle in the sun for 10-20 minutes and the sweat was only under the pits, and it was minor. The rest of me was comfortable in 80ºF+ sun.

Edit - I am no where near bone thin, and tend to sweat in tropical wool in these temps.


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## kkollwitz (Oct 31, 2005)

Living in South Carolina makes it easy to wear linen, tropical wool, polycotton poplin, silk, and seersucker ...even on the hottest days, I feel fine. Businesswise, everyone recognizes it's a different season, light weights and colors aren't looked askance of. 

I think a lot of the heat issue is psychological.


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

*Welllllll*

Preu, you are in North Dakota, isn't it pretty dry up there? I'm assuming the dry weather is a horse of a different color than the hot humid weather here. But now I see that kkollwitz is in South Carolina and is even closer to the Equator :icon_smile_wink: so maybe I'm just a wimp.

Where would you suggest I try to find a decent seersucker that won't break my bank now, anyway? Paul Fredrick? Brooks Brothers? They're expensive, and those colors!! :crazy: What's wrong with black? :icon_smile_big:


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

North Dakota has the worst of all worlds, and the best of some.

The humidity depends on the rain, naturally. We aren't in the marshes, like you eastern folks that build cities on some serious crud land. (I know because I am from Wilmington, DE, schooled in north Jersey, and worked in NYC) If it is a damp year here it is good for crops but the water evaporates and hangs over the land creating a sauna of sorts almost as bad as the EC. And then the mosquitos spawn and it's hell. If it is dry, as this year mostly is, it isn't bad at all.

Jos A. Banks just sent me an email this week with a sale. Check it out QUIK! - $75 seersucker suits in blue and maybe tan. They are the older, hotter models, but at $75 you can't be too picky. The newer models are still $150. I'll admit the older models are hotter, so you might find them better outside of July and August in the NE. If you know you will be in a/c they are wonderful.


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

Preu Pummel said:


> North Dakota has the worst of all worlds, and the best of some.
> 
> The humidity depends on the rain, naturally. We aren't in the marshes, like you eastern folks that build cities on some serious crud land. (I know because I am from Wilmington, DE, schooled in north Jersey, and worked in NYC) If it is a damp year here it is good for crops but the water evaporates and hangs over the land creating a sauna of sorts almost as bad as the EC. And then the mosquitos spawn and it's hell. If it is dry, as this year mostly is, it isn't bad at all.
> 
> Jos A. Banks just sent me an email this week with a sale. Check it out QUIK! - $75 seersucker suits in blue and maybe tan. They are the older, hotter models, but at $75 you can't be too picky. The newer models are still $150. I'll admit the older models are hotter, so you might find them better outside of July and August in the NE. If you know you will be in a/c they are wonderful.


:aportnoy: Thanks!
What color shoes do you wear with a navy seersucker? brown? Black? White? Oh bother....


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Southern guys will wear black oxfords with seersucker, but I, and other fashion critics not limited to regional dogma, believe that is rather unsophisticated because the black is such a contrast it makes the feet the heaviest part of the whole image, and eyes are dragged down there.

I suggest white bucks (another Southern fave), tan leather dress or casual dress, or brown dress or casual dress. My preference is whole cut shoes, or very simple construction shoes, including chukkas. Chukkas are a little heavy for summer wear, though. It's nice to show off ankles with colorful/decorative socks when possible.

If you aren't dressy you could even wear sneakers...  or flip flops! :crazy:

My favorite at this time are brandy, whole cut, AE Westgates. But I also love wearing two tone McClains with my seersucker:


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## obiwan (Feb 2, 2007)

I used to think wearing a suit in the summer was not an issue. I worked in San Francisco and live in the Valley where it can get over 100 for a few consecutive days run.

Then I started traveling to New York for business trips, its hot but not as hot as the valley, its the humidity that kills. A 5 block walk @ 7 am can dampen your shirt in no time.


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## Fairlane (Jun 18, 2008)

obiwan said:


> I used to think wearing a suit in the summer was not an issue. I worked in San Francisco and live in the Valley where it can get over 100 for a few consecutive days run.
> 
> Then I started traveling to New York for business trips, its hot but not as hot as the valley, its the humidity that kills. A 5 block walk @ 7 am can dampen your shirt in no time.


+10 (eheh)

Preu, thanks again for the tip. I'll definitely look into brown or tan to go with the suit. Nice pic of the shoes. I bit much for my taste but definitely look good with the suit! :aportnoy: When I get it the way I want it, (alterations and shoes) I'll post a pic if interested


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## gentleman amateur (Mar 2, 2008)

Sator said:


> There is a reason why Bedouins in the desert traditionally dress in heavy wools:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is interesting that you make this claim. Here in Japan many businesses' response to the government's request to cut down CO2 emissions has been to introduce business casual. In the summer one can get by with suits without ties or shirts and ties without suits. Many businesses run their AC's at 28 C. I teach at an English school and the temperature at 24 C can range from comfortable to unbearable depending on the inefficiency of the system or the number of teachers in the office or both. Shirt and tie are required and I am one of the few who wears a suit. I also complain the least about the heat--though I do complain since the system is erratic.


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