# America The Slovenly: Dressing Down and Blimping Up



## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

I couldn't find that this had been posted. From Forbes. I found it enjoyable.

"Let's face it - by and large, we've become a nation of slobs. I am sitting in the auditorium of a Midwestern college at its graduation ceremony, and, in my starched khaki trousers, blue open-collar shirt and blazer, I am wildly overdressed. I also wore shoes, as opposed to sneakers, flip-flops or sandals. I am feeling very conspicuous, for around me are fellow citizens, friends and families of the graduates, dressed in tank-tops, logo T-shirts, cut-off shorts, raggedy jeans barely hanging on to the butt, sweat suits, pedal-pushers, gym gear with "Nike" on it, and at least one sighting of what appeared to be a maroon bathing suit.

"What the hell is going on, here?..."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/2012/06/11/america-the-slovenly-dressing-down-and-blimping-up/


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

LOL. Funny, but saddening as well. These days the idea of dressing up to go out, for far too many, is limited to grabbing the ball cap without the sweat stains on the bill!  Thanks for this mornings smile.


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Watch the movie "Idiocracy", if it wasn't so close to the truth it would be an even funnier film.
BTW it isn't just the USA.


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## TSWalker (Nov 2, 2011)

mrp said:


> Watch the movie "Idiocracy", if it wasn't so close to the truth it would be... even funnier.


My wife and I might as well be the "educated" couple from the opening sequence. Thus this thread seems like a good place to announce the pending birth of our first (read: only) child. We're outnumbered, but there is hope.

Thanks to Liberty Ship for the link.


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## Bespoken pa (Apr 14, 2012)

What I find equally as appalling are inviduals who spend ridiculous amounts of money to look like clowns. The other day I was in saks and noticed someone purchasing gucci high tops that retailed for around $600. Unreal I couldn't imagine where one could even wear something so ridiculous. Is it me or have we become a culture of label obsessed lemmings. It is as of people simply say gucci designed it, it must look good.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm always up for a good rant.

Thanks!!


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## Mox (May 30, 2012)

I grew up in a very small town, and then at the beginning of jr. high, moved to the suburb of Rochester. The town is small enough that they simply have a yearly alumni dinner rather than reunions for each too-small class. Since I hadn't seen most of my classmates in decades, I decided to attend what would have been my 25th anniversary if I had stayed. I probably should have asked what typical dress was, but decided to simply go in my suit. I assumed I would be a little over-dressed, expecting what goes for church clothes in the area—anything that isn't a t-shirt with anything that isn't jeans—but was shocked to encounter a similar scene to the quote above. There were a few of the older generations that were better dressed, but nothing coming close to a suit.

Even in my pre-reformation state, I was disappointed in what I saw.


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## Rolex Luthor (Jan 5, 2009)

*Well said, Mr. Lutz*

"I'll wear what I want when I want, it's my right!" Perhaps. But it's a violation of my right to be reasonably shielded from unnecessary ugliness.

This encapsulates how I feel. Well said, Mr. Lutz.

Incidentally, Bob Lutz is also a collector of fine vintage watches.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I recently attended a b-day party organized in a local dance club. Not the finest establishment by any stretch of the imagination, but this was still a social night out among people in their late 30s and early 40s who are by most standards upper-middle class. I insisted on chinos and a white linen shirt, although I did so wishing that the event would be an excuse to wear a good sport coat. Perhaps I've been watching too much Mad Men. My wife wore a summer dress. Everyone else showed up in jeans, with the guys pairing the jeans either with a polo or a button down, untucked. I wore AE Delrays. The other guys wore sneakers. The women? Dressing to go out seems to mean jeans combined with a shirt with something sparkly on it.

Odd.

I associated the lack of formality with the crap music they were playing. Hip hop, which I think is perhaps the worst thing to happen to our culture in a long, long time. There's nothing classy about hip hop or dancing to it. Thus, there's no call to wear anything classy.


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## Virginia-Style (Oct 21, 2010)

Being on the younger side - I've "plowed through" the days of feeling overdressed or dealing with the comments from friends like "why did you wear a sport coat???" combined with the occasional request from my wife that I don't "dress up" - even though dressing up is simply a sport coat and dress shirt - no tie. She has finally come around and appreciates that I iron my shirt and don't dress like an adolescent. With the realization that this is simply what I'm comfortable wearing and I see no value in t-shirts and sneakers. I frankly never ask about the dress code these days because it is simply ignored unless its completely plastered all over the invitation! But in most cases people wear what they want and don't care. 

On a side note - I did try a little experiment by wearing a coat and tie on some flights recently - it was just one round trip but I did have a 5 hour mechanical delay in Vegas and I went to the United Club and they let me in and apologized about the delay - noting they appreciated my business. I usually fly Delta so I'm not a United Club member - and they waived the $50 one time use fee. I also had two airport employees refer to me as "sir" which doesn't happen when I'm in jeans. My guess is if anyone is tired of the "slob" effect in America it's people working at the airlines... but that's just a guess...


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## Mox (May 30, 2012)

I've been noting a marked difference to how people respond to me in general, now that I'm dressing better. I'm thinking it is a subconscious reaction to some degree.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Live and let live. 

You never know, the guy in the tank top could be taking unpaid leave to see his niece, his only relative to get a college degree, graduate and as soon as the ceremony is done he's back in the truck heading back to work. I don't think that the "rap" culture is wrong or bad, it is just different. If you choose to look at things as right and wrong, you can certainly see it as wrong... but thinking like that is easy and automatic and generally should be avoided. You can lament all you'd like about people with untucked shirts and sneakers but keep in mind you're upset about someone not meeting your own, personal, unenunciated standards. Further, your culture may or may not be their culture and culture, by definition, is not static. Culture reflects experiences and it is very difficult to judge a person based on culture when you do not know the totality of his human experience. 

This reminds me of a David Foster Wallace parable: There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says "Morning, boys, how's the water?" and the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then one eventually turns to the other and says, "What the hell is water?"


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Virginia-Style said:


> Being on the younger side - I've "plowed through" the days of feeling overdressed or dealing with the comments from friends like "why did you wear a sport coat???" combined with the occasional request from my wife that I don't "dress up" - even though dressing up is simply a sport coat and dress shirt - no tie. She has finally come around and appreciates that I iron my shirt and don't dress like an adolescent. With the realization that this is simply what I'm comfortable wearing and I see no value in t-shirts and sneakers. I frankly never ask about the dress code these days because it is simply ignored unless its completely plastered all over the invitation! But in most cases people wear what they want and don't care.
> 
> On a side note - I did try a little experiment by wearing a coat and tie on some flights recently - it was just one round trip but I did have a 5 hour mechanical delay in Vegas and I went to the United Club and they let me in and apologized about the delay - noting they appreciated my business. I usually fly Delta so I'm not a United Club member - and they waived the $50 one time use fee. I also had two airport employees refer to me as "sir" which doesn't happen when I'm in jeans. My guess is if anyone is tired of the "slob" effect in America it's people working at the airlines... but that's just a guess...


Don't be mistaken: they weren't going out of their way for you because they were impressed with your outfit and respected how well dressed you were. They went out of their way for you because, generally speaking, the better dressed you are for mundane tasks such as flying, the more important they perceive you to be.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Tilton said:


> Don't be mistaken: they weren't going out of their way for you because they were impressed with your outfit and respected how well dressed you were. They went out of their way for you because, generally speaking, the better dressed you are for mundane tasks such as flying, the more important they perceive you to be.


isn't the one thing equivalent to the other? en precis: they respected because they perceived importance.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

BTW there is a perspective which allows that individuals may dress badly because they do not repsect themselves, they do not consider that they are valuable enough to wear anything but the unflattering items they choose to put on. A camouflage of mediocrity, better to merge and with which to effectively disappear.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Virginia-Style said:


> On a side note - I did try a little experiment by wearing a coat and tie on some flights recently - it was just one round trip but I did have a 5 hour mechanical delay in Vegas and I went to the United Club and they let me in and apologized about the delay - noting they appreciated my business. I usually fly Delta so I'm not a United Club member - and they waived the $50 one time use fee. I also had two airport employees refer to me as "sir" which doesn't happen when I'm in jeans. My guess is if anyone is tired of the "slob" effect in America it's people working at the airlines... but that's just a guess...


Regardless of the reason, I have also found the same royal treatment by airline employees when I am dressed better than almost everyone else on the plane. What amazes me is the number of men in their 60's and 70's who fly in jeans and sneakers, and sometimes just a t-shirt and windbreaker.


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## ipse dixit (Apr 11, 2012)

It drives me nuts when I am traveling on business via air and I find myself surrounded by people who are dressed like they are going to the gym. In my judgment is show a serious lack of respect for themselves and those around them.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

I've given up, but I still won't blend in. Ball caps at funerals. Tank tops in church. I think we expect too much from those we've long expected to do too little. When you get a trophy for just showing up you grow to think just showing up is all you need to do. I'm sure many of my under 50 patients don't own a suit or a sport coat that fits because they seldom need one, but washing machines and irons aren't that hard to find. A lot of my poor but proud patients are always clean and neatly dressed. If the men would just take off that damn ball cap inside it would make a lot of difference.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

ipse dixit said:


> It drives me nuts when I am traveling on business via air and I find myself surrounded by people who are dressed like they are going to the gym. In my judgment is show a serious lack of respect for themselves and those around them.


In this day and time can we expect anything but a serious lack of respect for those around them? I always expect to get the 345 pound slob next to me and seldom am I disappointed.


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## Mox (May 30, 2012)

I understand what you are saying, Tilton. I don't think I was being judgmental. Many were family and friends, so I already knew them: good people. I was more disappointed in the experience itself. I do think you make a good point, as it can be easy to slip into the kind of thinking you describe.



Shaver said:


> BTW there is a perspective which allows that individuals may dress badly because they do not repsect themselves, they do not consider that they are valuable enough to wear anything but the unflattering items they choose to put on. A camouflage of mediocrity, better to merge and with which to effectively disappear.


I think this ties into my own experience. I dressed in a manner that I felt represented who I was, and dressing in a style consistent with the taste of this board felt like a misrepresentation. Once my confidence received a kick-start, my desire to dress to match that confidence emerged. The two then supported each other.

If a person sees a finer style as being snooty, they may not want to self-identify with that. But if they have a confident and positive outlook, my guess is that they will still be clean and presentable. For myself, I was happy, and so clean and presentable, but my lack of confidence showed in my unwillingness to stand out.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

cdavant said:


> In this day and time can we expect anything but a serious lack of respect for those around them? I always expect to get the 345 pound slob next to me and seldom am I disappointed.


You calling me a slob?


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## Olifter (Jun 9, 2012)

cdavant said:


> I've given up, but I still won't blend in. Ball caps at funerals. Tank tops in church. I think we expect too much from those we've long expected to do too little. When you get a trophy for just showing up you grow to think just showing up is all you need to do. I'm sure many of my under 50 patients don't own a suit or a sport coat that fits because they seldom need one, but washing machines and irons aren't that hard to find. A lot of my poor but proud patients are always clean and neatly dressed. If the men would just take off that damn ball cap inside it would make a lot of difference.


That reminds me of almost 30 years ago, when my daughter was an infant, we were at the grocery store in the evening. I had shorts and a t-shirt on and held my daughter while my wife shopped. I ran in to one of my patients, who was right on top off me before she realized it was me. She screamed, put her hands to her face and exclaimed, "I've never seen you like that!". I thought my fly was down or something.

Made an impression on a young professional. I've since been told, "the way you dress tells people how you want to be treated."


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Orsini said:


> You calling me a slob?


No one would be disappointed to be seated next to the Great Orsini, and, besides, one hears you have dropped a few pounds.


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## Claybuster (Aug 29, 2007)

I know from personal experience that I get better treatment when I am dressed well as opposed to just jeans and a polo shirt. Nothing wrong with jeans and a polo shirt, I wear those also. But when some people notice that you made an effort to look nice, they make an effort to be nice to you as well. Like I said, this is just from my personal experience. One of my concerns is that it seems some members of society don't have a clue as to what is appropriate attire for certain occasions. I know we've beaten that poor dead horse several times on this forum, but it helps to vent


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## Dr.teatime (Jul 24, 2011)

I blame this on the grunge era... college was dismal with everyone dressing in sweats and not showering for days...


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

blue suede shoes said:


> Regardless of the reason, I have also found the same royal treatment by airline employees when I am dressed better than almost everyone else on the plane. What amazes me is the number of men in their 60's and 70's who fly in jeans and sneakers, and sometimes just a t-shirt and windbreaker.


No, I'm in agreement on the outcome. My father used to fly in chinos and sport shirts and don a suit upon arrival until he started flying into LaGuardia in the morning and leaving in the afternoon. He noticed he was treated much better so he started wearing a coat every time he flew. In retirement, his mantra for flying anywhere is that if there is the slightest chance he'll need a coat, he wears it to the airport. It doesn't get wrinkled in his luggage and he gets treated better. Win-win. That said, I have flown in sneakers, chino shorts and an untucked shirt several times - especially when travelling for pleasure and flying long distances (China, Europe, etc) where I plan to sleep for most of the flight.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

cdavant said:


> No one would be disappointed to be seated next to the Great Orsini, and, besides, one hears you have dropped a few pounds.


Thank you for your kind words. I hope that we have that opportunity someday.

I am sure you did not intend to mock the afflicted, but I just wanted to point out that "fat" and "slob" are not necessarily linked. Of course, just as someone who is thin will always look good, someone who is fat will always look bad. But at least one can still dress nicely, which makes a much better impression.

"The Great Orsini" -- I kinda like the sound of that...


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*works for me*

I almost always wear a jacket when flying. I believe it makes a difference in how I'm treated. It certainly makes a difference in how I feel about how I'm being perceived.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Orsini said:


> I am sure you did not intend to mock the afflicted, but I just wanted to point out that "fat" and "slob" are not necessarily linked.


Hear, hear! It's easy to forget that 100 years ago the very image of virile masculinity and attractiveness was someone like Teddy Roosevelt or King Edward VII. Current medical knowledge suggests that there may be more than mere fashion in the current preference for gentlemen to have a lower BMI, but that knowledge has also changed over time. In any event, the man of ample carriage faces enough slings and arrows in daily life without more insults and invective from AAAC.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm 6 foot 4, and about 240 pounds. I'm just large enough that I could be considered overweight. However, when I go somewhere which is not definitely a casual occasion, I tend to dress well. In a nice 48L suit, I have the advantage over the skinny guy in a t-shirt. 

The only downside is that airport security tends to think I'm doing an evaluation. I get the 9th degree every time, and the fact that I once forgot my briefcase at the checkpoint and had to be chased back didn't help. I'm lucky I didn't get tased. My dad claims that because I wear a coat and tie, especially at 5AM or 11PM, I am quite likely going to be taken for somebody doing a surprise inspection. 

The best thing at airports? I own stock in the company I fly with, so I mention that to everybody involved in the process and I get amazing service. I even know some of the FAs by name that I know through work or politically, even though it's only about 1200 in stock (I never say how much). 

Tom


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## upthewazzu (Nov 3, 2011)

CuffDaddy said:


> ...the man of ample carriage...


This is hilarious! I'm stealing it.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

CuffDaddy said:


> Hear, hear! It's easy to forget that 100 years ago the very image of virile masculinity and attractiveness was someone like Teddy Roosevelt or King Edward VII. Current medical knowledge suggests that there may be more than mere fashion in the current preference for gentlemen to have a lower BMI, but that knowledge has also changed over time. In any event, the man of ample carriage faces enough slings and arrows in daily life without more insults and invective from AAAC.


Three to four hundred years ago it was considered most masculine and fashionable to have small feet and small hands and a large frilly collar. Go figure.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Tilton said:


> .... if there is the slightest chance he'll need a coat, he wears it to the airport. It doesn't get wrinkled in his luggage and he gets treated better......


I don't think I have ever been treated differently but I always wear a jacket on the plane if I need it at my destination. saves room in the luggage.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Tilton said:


> Live and let live.
> 
> You never know, the guy in the tank top could be taking unpaid leave to see his niece, his only relative to get a college degree, graduate and as soon as the ceremony is done he's back in the truck heading back to work. I don't think that the "rap" culture is wrong or bad, it is just different. If you choose to look at things as right and wrong, you can certainly see it as wrong... but thinking like that is easy and automatic and generally should be avoided. You can lament all you'd like about people with untucked shirts and sneakers but keep in mind you're upset about someone not meeting your own, personal, unenunciated standards. Further, your culture may or may not be their culture and culture, by definition, is not static. Culture reflects experiences and it is very difficult to judge a person based on culture when you do not know the totality of his human experience.
> 
> This reminds me of a David Foster Wallace parable: There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says "Morning, boys, how's the water?" and the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then one eventually turns to the other and says, "What the hell is water?"


Well said.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Gurdon said:


> *I almost always wear a jacket when flying.* I believe it makes a difference in how I'm treated. It certainly makes a difference in how I feel about how I'm being perceived.
> 
> Regards,
> Gurdon


Was sat opposite a guy in quite a smart looking suit, shirt and tie on a train a couple of weeks ago. 22 hours going from Guangzhou to Beijing. He kept his suit and tie on the whole time and slept through the night wearing them. He was probably a rep or businessman. Probably would have to take a good long shower or bath when he arrived at his destination though, because that's what I did. Myself, I was just wearing jeans and a polo shirt, which went straight in the wash.


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## ballmouse (Jul 30, 2011)

I wonder if airlines would treat a man in his 20s wearing a suit differently than a man closer to his 40s wearing a suit. I'd personally think a large factor could be the seeming importance of an older man in a suit (in addition to wearing a suit) whereas a younger man in his suit might just be only that and nothing more.


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## db601 (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't know about the guy in the tank top. I recently attended a funeral in Weippe, ID where a family member wore a western jacket with the filigree yokes. Probably the best outfit he had and I thought it showed respect for the deceased. Teenagers wore, well what teenagers wear. I figure they don't know any better. A funeral's one thing; I can't imagine many situations where I couldn't scrounge up something better than a tank top.


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## db601 (Oct 3, 2008)

I completely agree that fat and slob are not synonomous. No one would use the latter to describe Sydney Greenstreet, "the Fatman", in the Maltese Falcon. His weight adds a gravitas that counterbalances the fop Peter Lorre. I wish my suits fit as well as Greenstreet's did.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

ballmouse said:


> I wonder if airlines would treat a man in his 20s wearing a suit differently than a man closer to his 40s wearing a suit. I'd personally think a large factor could be the seeming importance of an older man in a suit (in addition to wearing a suit) whereas a younger man in his suit might just be only that and nothing more.


This touches on my observation that, as a well-dressed "older" man, I am treated much better in most commercial situations than those of the same age who surrender to retirement slobbery (a word that may not exist, but should) and wear sweats, t-shirts, etc. This conclusion is subjective, but I think true, whether in urban settings, smaller towns or at stops along the interstate. Even in rural Wyoming, clean, pressed, fresh ranchwear or workwear seems to evoke a better response than garments that are similar but grubby. For different reasons from younger men, old fellows need to be attentive to appearance.


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## Acme (Oct 5, 2011)

godan said:


> For different reasons from younger men, old fellows need to be attentive to appearance.


Who says those reasons have to be different? :icon_smile_wink:


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## Virginia-Style (Oct 21, 2010)

godan said:


> This touches on my observation that, as a well-dressed "older" man, I am treated much better in most commercial situations than those of the same age who surrender to retirement slobbery (a word that may not exist, but should) and wear sweats, t-shirts, etc. This conclusion is subjective, but I think true, whether in urban settings, smaller towns or at stops along the interstate. Even in rural Wyoming, clean, pressed, fresh ranchwear or workwear seems to evoke a better response than garments that are similar but
> grubby. For different reasons from younger men, old fellows need to be attentive to appearance.


well i will note two female flight attendants told me they always judge the passenger by his shoes. so if youre still single - wear some park ave on your next trip and maybe youll get lucky!


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

There are two things at work here: style and code. One can be stylish in any format, though I was glad when some big time rappers dropped the gangsta gear and went bespoke, for looking stylish in big droopy jeans in challenging. Not long ago I was at a horse auction where everyone wore jeans -- and the full Monty of Western gear. Most were undistinguished, but a handful were worthy of the Sartorialist. They were stylish in that classic American-born look that has influenced the world: cowboy (and cowgirl). But not everyone has a great sense of style and that's where code helps. I look at my family's old photographs and in the old b&w's everyone looks terrific, but when color snapshots became the norm there's a degradation of style. Alas and mea culpa, it was the work of the counterculture. As others have pointed out, hippie culture had its elegance. It wasn't about being a slob, it was about being a very different kind of dandy. But, in the end, as the disregard for previous codes took root, it ended up in slovenliness. I noticed the change in jazzmen. Up into the '60s, they dressed in conservative dark suits -- it was part of their cool. Then all hell broke loose and I watched some great artists blowing their horns dressed like clueless suburbanites. Miles Davis had style, albeit eccentric. But he was an exception. While no one over in the Trad forum has love for the Italian Invasion led by Giorgio Armani, it did make American men pay attention to the figure they cut in their business gear. However, eventually another current in American culture won. A Puritan rejection of sensuality that made us, men in particular, scorn looking good. From the observations that began this thread one is tempted to conclude that most people go out of their way to look bad. Poorly dressed and proud is their motto. And if you take the opposite direction, you are singled out. You're either on a job interview, which implies that once you land the job you won't dress like that. Or you're putting on airs and feel superior to the slobs around you. I would imagine a number if not most members of this forum would say, yes, we are.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

There are pockets of resistance!

I'm currently teaching a summer class at Morehouse College in Atlanta, and I'm constantly amazed at how comparatively well-dressed the students (and faculty) are compared with other universities I'm affiliated with (such at Emory and, especially, Georgia Tech). Every building on campus has a posted dress code, and it *is* enforced. Now, it's summer in Atlanta, so students aren't walking around in suits and sport coats (though I'd expect to see them in cooler months), but there's a general atmosphere of respectful dress. The student body is pretty uniformly physically fit, as well. Impressive, if a little sad in its rarity!

DH


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

https://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-17...s-morehouse-college-all-male-college?_s=PM:US


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

Dhaller,

On my campus, a few of us wore sportscoats or professional attire. Especially the evening management classes. I found that people generally wore what they wanted, and at a management survey course, it was very much a dressier environment. That said, archaeology 2000 had people wearing everything from jeans or camo or khakis. 

Also the ed majors dress well, because they work in the school system for practicums. They cannot show up for a practicum wearing sweats and a "U of L 2012" tee.

My major (political science) had only a few of us dress up for class. A poly sci major's dress outfit is a polo shirt and cargo pants with sneakers. I would wear a jacket, bow tie and slacks with "nice" shoes. I didn't always spend a ton of money, but I like to think I raised the bar.

Tom


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

I attended a few courses with the Ecole Hôteliere de Lausanne. Dress code for men: Suit, tie, proper shoes, immaculate personal hygeine. Once a month or so they would have a "business casual" day which still required the students to dress sharper than students at most of the other campuses I've been to. Unless you were a woman, the dress code was strictly enforced by monitors at the entrance doors and any staff member who felt compelled to say something. Students were given "community service" for breaking the rules and I even heard of a few being sent home for not shaving. It is the oldest hospitality school in the world and rated rather high as an educational institution so I assume they desire to appear so as well.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

I travel for work often and just recently decided to always wear a jacket and a tie when taking a plane. I've noticed a pretty significant difference in how I'm treated at the airport, in the plane, at the car rental place and at the front desks of hotels.
People call me "sir" more often. They smile and offer a polite demeanor more often and seem to make a greater effort to accomodate me.
I believe wearing a button up shirt with a jacket and tie and well-pressed clothes tells people that you respect yourself and you will treat them with respect. No one can deny that people judge others based on appearance. This being the case, why not strive to present yourself well through your clothes while you're in public?


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## Jake_Gittes (Jun 26, 2012)

Hello,

(First post here, after some lurking. I hope you will not find too daring I put some insight in the present discussion .) 

Not that this is to be taken as any consolation, but this is the usual situation here in Spain.

A few days ago I went to court, as a police expert witness. I wore my customary 2 piece suit (it would be 3 piece in colder weather), with a bow tie (normally, I wear a bow tie when I go as an expert witness, and a tie when I go as a witness).

It was a homicide case, with jury, which I see as an event one would like to present as professional an image as possible.

Well, of the dozen or so police personnel present (not counting those in uniform), just one wore a suit too, with a tie; one, a sports coat, with a shirt, no tie; and it is downhill from here, ranging from polos with jeans or chinos, to logo t-shirts with jeans and sports sneakers, training shoes, etc. This includes both expert witnesses and witnesses. 

I must say this is the norm. Weather is no excuse; in cooler temperatures, it would be the same, but with hoodies, logo jackets, etc.

And this includes ranked officers, up to sub-inspector in the particular case I described. No wonder there is no effort to enforce any dress standard, not even for such court appearances.

For you to have an idea of the expected standards ... frequently, when I identify myself (all suited up) to court officials, and the like, they look genuinely surprised I am a police officer, and not an attorney or some such - sometimes they even say it.

And, yes, definitely yes: it makes a difference as far as treatment by other people is concerned.

Regards!


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

At least in the states it seems there is just a general lack of decorum and little to no concern whatsoever regarding the lack thereof. The initial post suggested there was a inverse correlation between BMI and the quality of one's clothing. I suspect there is some correlation here - If you are moderately fat do you really want to buy a wardrobe based on your fat figure. Considering 2/3 of americans are overweight and 35.7% obese it makes little sense that paying money for expensive clothes that need to fit be in the budget - and why should it be? If one is thin (BMI less than 25) and maintains a constant weight it makes more sense to invest in a wardrobe. I suspect if you are obese (BMI above 30) you just start to not care. And if you are really heavy (BMI above 35) just forget about finding clothes that fit that have any style. Good thing they make sweats in XXXXL. Indeed, I recently lost 20 to 25 pounds and I can anecdotally proclaim that it has made a huge difference in caring about how I dress. I am very fit now (42 to 44 jacket depending on the cut - 32 or 33 waist trousers) , some older nice suits fit (purchased the last time I was thin) and I genuinely have increased interest in my physical appearance. So I agree, it is a bit of a stereotype but fat people probably just don't care as much about their appearance - or at least it is one less reason to care about your appearance. And yes Sydney was beautifully dressed - but he was an actor who made his living on the big screen so he had a reason to dress well. Most of us just don't have any good reason other than we like clothes and with the change in corporate dress there is even less incentive. When we are heavier we don't feel particularly well about our appearance with clothes off and it serves as little incentive to care about our appearance with clothes on. I have lived that myself so at least that is what I can say I feel. Your mileage may vary.

I must admit that there are exceptions. My Father-in-law whose BMI was anywhere from 30 to 35 always seemed to dress well - so there certainly are those that care but he was born in 1936 and that generation (like him) is starting to die off. My father is 91 (he is thin - something universal about nonagenarians) - he always wears a sports jacket to dinner. The next generation just doesn't seem to care much.


For those who have a BMI over 30 and care about they way they dress I commend you and I hope you have not been offended. But I am tired of being politically correct about obesity. If you are that heavy you need to lose weight. Your old clothes will fit better and you can buy some new ones that look better than the old ones. Good luck in attaining that goal! 

Jack


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

JBierly said:


> But I am tired of being politically correct about obesity. I


Yeah, well, I'm tired of *you*. And it only took 4 posts.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Yes we know that.

What else you said, I believe it robe mostly true.

How long were you overweight?

My BMI is around 30, too much for me and an ongoing struggle. I believe there is an addiction component to it -- in the same way for example that smoking can be so very difficult to quit.

Congrats on your fitness.

Yes, harder and harder to fit OTR at least, for sure the more the weight increases in my experience.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Cool - usually takes more than 4 posts.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Really? Using an opposition to "political correctness" as a justification for overt rudeness is a pretty fast track to exhausting the patience of civilized men.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Struggled with weight for 20 years or so. BMI at worst was right at 30 but probably mostly at 26 to 28 over the years. The down side about being fit is I cannot buy suits without having the pants recut. But it is a good excuse for MTO.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

Sorry I offended you - I preemptively wrote that already. I don't think that complaining 1/3 of americans are too fat is being rude overt or otherwise. It is a tragic fact that affects all of us - even if we aren't fat - we probably have loved ones who suffer from complications of obesity (been there) or we have to pay for it through increased insurance premiums and taxes for expanding socialized medicine to take care of it. It isn't like I singled you out and called you fat. For all I know you have a BMI of 22. 

Cheers,

Jack


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

*And I thought it was just me*

I find this thread very interresting and here's why , I am a blue collar worker who gets a work uniform that is provided for by the company I work for.

I recently started wearing a grey vest with my work uniform that happenes to be a grey shirt with blue pants . I wear my grey vest with my pocket watch and a straw fedora . 
No sooner did I start doing this and I started hearing from all my coworkers on how " nice I look" and if I was trying to move upstairs to management.
I was dumbfounded that that was all it took to look "dressed up" in todays world. go figure 
All the Best frank


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## Mongo (May 9, 2008)

I'm 54 years old, my BMI is 34, but my body fat is below 17%.

I've said this before, and anyone who cares can confirm this in a couple of minutes online: the BMI is a discredited bad measure for populations, and worse than useless as an individual measure.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

JBierly said:


> Sorry I offended you - I preemptively wrote that already. I don't think that complaining 1/3 of americans are too fat is being rude overt or otherwise. It is a tragic fact that affects all of us - even if we aren't fat - we probably have loved ones who suffer from complications of obesity (been there) or we have to pay for it through increased insurance premiums and taxes for expanding socialized medicine to take care of it. It isn't like I singled you out and called you fat. For all I know you have a BMI of 22.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jack


Why would any of the people you disdain even listen to you or care about what you say?


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

I wish I was overweight, just so I'd have _another _reason to dislike JBierly's posts...


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Gentlemen:
One tries to stay off of airplanes, but when one has had a reason to do so, It was my pleasure to always wear a suit with a long tie and black captoe bals. Part of the reason one has abandoned air travel is that it is my practice to always carry a pocket knife or three. This no longer possible; so one does not fly.
On the broader topic, one wears a suit and tie four days a week and a jacket and tie on Friday's. This is not any particular requirement for my position, but it does make things easier. People treat me well wherever I go and are genuinely glad to see me.
One discovers that meticulous attention to one's attire is well received by the public and results in better service and respectful treatment wherever one must go. Of course, the first thing one should have is good taste.
Regards,
rudy


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## Nick (Jan 16, 2005)

Yes, yes, yes. Couldn't agree more with Mr Lutz. 

The one that baffles me most is the obsession with wearing slogans, logos and "wittty" messages. I cannot understand why people want to walk down the street dressed as billboards for multi-national corporations. Are our lives really so empty that we need to affiliate ourselves with these brands as a form of validation? Next time you walk through a large American mall or airport take a close look: 4-5 logos or slogans per person isn't at all unusual (baseball hat, t-shirt, shorts, corporate back-back, tattoo, etc)


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Tiger said:


> I wish I was overweight, just so I'd have _another _reason to dislike JBierly's posts...


I beg your pardon, but apart from Jack stirring the hornets nest via the contentious issue of weight, what has he ever posted which could justify such a mean-spirited comment?


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

Shaver said:


> I beg your pardon, but apart from Jack stirring the hornets nest via the contentious issue of weight, what has he ever posted which could justify such a mean-spirited comment?


I too am astonished at the hatred displayed toward someone who has seven posts, and has apologized for inadvertently giving offense, even though he didn't post anything particularly offensive.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Orsini said:


> Of course, just as someone who is thin will always look good, someone who is fat will always look bad. .


Especially when this comment, admittedly taken slightly out of context, had already been made without exciting any comment or condemnation at all.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Shaver, Racer, and Haffman, if you cannot see what's offensive about someone expressing over contempt for a broad category of people, I really cannot help you.

BTW, Haffman, that quote is more than "slightly" out of context. The original post has very much the *opposite* view of the one that several find rude.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

CuffDaddy said:


> Shaver, Racer, and Haffman, if you cannot see what's offensive about someone expressing over contempt for a broad category of people, I really cannot help you.


cuffdaddy I am objecting to a specific comment from a member and one which was needlesly hostile.

I'll be honest I am rather surprised that you are not offended by the statement 'I wish I was overweight'. Trivialising, as it does, an issue about which you are clearly passionate.

What I find astonishing is the explicit indication (from the member my comment was directed toward) that JBierly has provoked multiple reasons for his posts to be disliked. I can find no evidence to support this. Moreover, if one dislikes a members posts; so what? A member may choose to either engage with discussion or say nothing. Ad Hominen attacks are prohibited (rule 1).

No offence to you nor your opinions (as you know I value your presence on this forum) but I merely feel that it was an uncalled for response.

If, on the other hand, you wish to debate with JBierly and persuade him the flaws you believe exist within his thinking, please do, I would have no complaint.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> BTW, Haffman, that quote is more than "slightly" out of context. The original post has very much the *opposite* view of the one that several find rude.


Nevertheless, the line I quoted was expressed as if it was a truism. It was not given as an example of what is not true. Orsini's point was that 'fat' people are not necessarily 'slobs' but in doing so he said that fat people always look bad. Therefore, I dont think my - qualified - use of it was unreasonable. Not because I think Orsini is prejudiced, but because of the extreme reaction to JBierly's post which was really not that much worse in sentiment.

However, you have already decided you cannot help me so I would appear to be wasting my breath.

P.S. To be clear it is *not* my view that someone who is thin always looks good and that someone who is fat always looks bad.


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## Tippo (Jul 1, 2012)

Mongo said:


> I'm 54 years old, my BMI is 34, but my body fat is below 17%.
> 
> I've said this before, and anyone who cares can confirm this in a couple of minutes online: the BMI is a discredited bad measure for populations, and worse than useless as an individual measure.


how did you know that your fat is 17% ?


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Racer said:


> I too am astonished at the hatred displayed toward someone who has seven posts, and has apologized for inadvertently giving offense, even though he didn't post anything particularly offensive.


I think the clearly articulated words of Racer are worth repeating. I am not surprised that forum members were moved to object in these circumstances. Nevertheless, the point being made, I will as requested let it rest.


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm new here and I know it, but I'll stick my neck out here . 

We are all here because we care about how we look regardless of how are bodies are shaped . 

I'm 5'9" and only weight 170 pounds BUT I looked like a slob for years untill I "woke up" about a month ago, so I must agree with whoever it was that stated that size does not equate to"slob". 

That being said what I really like about this forum is that I am amongst gentleman ,and gentleman with a sence of decorum,and respect and as this world is so full of a lack of common respect for each other I must admit that I'm quite surprized to see it here . 

Lets all take a deep breath ,act like the gentleman that we are and as much as I hate to quote the late Rodney King (r.i.p.) " cant we all just get along". 
Ok I'm going to duck now just in case .:biggrin2:

All the Best ,Frank


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I believe that cleans up the mess. 

Pip pip ... tally ho ... carry on gents.


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## MicTester (Oct 8, 2009)

Virginia-Style said:


> well i will note two female flight attendants told me they always judge the passenger by his shoes.


They made it up. Shoes are hard to observe on a plane. Just not practical unless the FA makes it rather obvious s/he is looking at a passenger's shoes.


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

MicTester said:


> They made it up. Shoes are hard to observe on a plane. Just not practical unless the FA makes it rather obvious s/he is looking at a passenger's shoes.


They can see your shoes as you're getting on the plane.


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I believe that cleans up the mess.
> 
> Pip pip ... tally ho ... carry on gents.


Gentlemen,
There you have it. Mr. Alexander has spoken. Let it rest in peace and move on, If you please.
Good fortune to you all,
rudy


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

The way people dress these days is they dress on how they feel. I rarely see people dress up anymore. Maybe we are becoming slobs.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

*EXTRA: It Doesn't Look Good to Be Overweight!*

Sometimes a hangover is a good thing. Otherwise, I would have scrolled over this obtuse crap as usual without realizing some of you boys had dared to take my name in vain.

For the benefit of you Johnny-come-latelies, Orsini is sixty-four years old, weighs 290 US pounds and has been overweight nearly all his life. This qualifies him to comment on the aesthetics of overweight as well as to generally look down his nose at everything.

Let me tell you this, trainee: if you are overweight, the best you can do is be a well dressed, young, handsome, charming, urbane, wealthy, ruthless, brutally efficient fat guy. You are stuck being a fat guy. There has never in all of post-DOW history (the only period that counts) been a good-looking fat guy. Never, ever, ever! And, if you delude yourself into thinking otherwise, you are wrong.

These are facts, Grasshopper.

And if that makes Orsini a monster, well, then grrrrr!!! baby, grrrrr!!!


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Haffman said:


> Especially when this comment, admittedly taken slightly out of context, had already been made without exciting any comment or condemnation at all.


You need to go back and study my original comment as you have obviously missed the point.

There is also a royalty...

And just to clarify: being fat is like being the best motor racing driver ever -- except you are slow....


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Orsini said:


> And if that makes Orsini a monster, well, then grrrrr!!! baby, grrrrr!!!


LOL. My apologies that someone with my miserably deficient post count has dared to call into question the great Orsini, or is it Orsini the great :icon_hailthee:

I do find your conclusions on overweight people rather negative, although you seem to be saying that one can be 'handsome' while not 'good-looking', which is a subtlety of difference I do not follow.

My point was that this somewhat negative viewpoint passed without comment, while the newbie bore the full brunt. That was all, good sir. :icon_peaceplease:


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

Haffman said:


> ...My point was that this somewhat negative viewpoint passed without comment, while the newbie bore the full brunt.


For what it's worth, I submitted an explanatory/clarifying message (and a couple of less-than-contrite ones, too!) to help lessen the vitriol, but it was lost when Alex understandably put the brakes on the conflagration that was about to ensue...


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Of course slovenly dressed and obesity are interrelated -- ain't no money left over for clothes when it's been all spent at Krispy Kream.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

3holic said:


> Of course slovenly dressed and obesity are interrelated -- ain't no money left over for clothes when it's been all spent at Krispy Kream.


and speciality ice coffees.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

eagle2250 said:


> LOL. Funny, but saddening as well. These days the idea of dressing up to go out, for far too many, is limited to grabbing the ball cap without the sweat stains on the bill!  Thanks for this mornings smile.


Hey Eagle how about wifebeaters with shorts and flip-flops?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^LOL.
"Wifebeaters" are underwear; shorts are (at best) beachwear and flip-flops are shower wear. Every garment has a purpose...re purpose at your own risk!


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^LOL.
> "Wifebeaters" are underwear; shorts are (at best) beachwear and flip-flops are shower wear. Every garment has a purpose...re purpose at your own risk!


That's what I'm seeing these days. They're right, people don't care on how they look, it's just that you want to feel as comfortable as possible.

see this? no socks! now how can you go out the house looking like that?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

3holic said:


> Of course slovenly dressed and obesity are interrelated -- ain't no money left over for clothes when it's been all spent at Krispy Kream.


Thank you for that considerate assessment of a very real and difficult problem for a lot of people in our society.

By the way, you said just as much, if not more about yourself than you did about your intended victims.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Thank you for that considerate assessment of a very real and difficult problem for a lot of people in our society.
> 
> By the way, you said just as much, if not more about yourself than you did about your intended victims.


I think this is the point where Shaver, et al. enter the fray to play public defender to another cheap shot artist, attacking those who were initially offended while ignoring the horrendous breach of etiquette and decency by their "client."

Sorry, I couldn't resist! (I picture Alex sharpening his tailoring needles for me...)


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I hope he does.

Do you get some kind of pleasure out of trolling?


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

Howard said:


> That's what I'm seeing these days. They're right, people don't care on how they look,


Amen Brother !

I play in a band and this past weekend we hit the road to go to a Highland Games and compete against other bands.

I swear ,this was the uniform of the day for the great unwashed masse's ,both species alike, flip flops and cargos of various lengths.

Even worse menbers in my own band dressed like that as well as peolpe in other bands .

Also as someone else commented on here that walking "billboards " abound and now itis also fair game to have any vulgar offenscive and sexully suggestive slogan blazened across our chest ,

I really wonder what people in other countries think of us when we go abroard ??

All the Best ,Frank


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I hope he does.
> 
> Do you get some kind of pleasure out of trolling?


I'm confused - really - can you please explain the troll comment? My remark was directed at 3holic for his insensitivity (you also responded to it), and to those who have tended to defend those making such remarks.

Why the shot at me, forsbergacct2000?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Because you basically invited Alex to do something about it. Why bring Alex up in this?

I'm not posting in this thread any more for a couple days.

As far as I'm concerned, people who flame and bash any class of people for the fun of it over body shape, cover, orientation or whatever say more about themselves than they do about the people they bash. I'll leave it at that.

Tiger, I guess when I read more closely, you were on my side; however, let's not bait anyone. I'm sure Alex has better things to do than deleting another 10 posts.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Because you basically invited Alex to do something about it. Why bring Alex up in this?...As far as I'm concerned, people who flame and bash any class of people for the fun of it over body shape, cover, orientation or whatever say more about themselves than they do about the people they bash...Tiger, I guess when I read more closely, you were on my side; however, let's not bait anyone. I'm sure Alex has better things to do than deleting another 10 posts.


_*Of course I was on your side*_ - I apologize if my caustic response didn't make that clear. And I agree, I was baiting a bit, especially because of the earlier battle in this thread over the exact same thing - gratuitous attacks on others.

Finally, I was being tongue in cheek with Alex; it was a reference to the previous dialogue that required Alex to intercede. It seemed like we were about to go down that very same path, thus my comment.

I'll refrain from posting in this thread, too. Maybe in all of them for a while...


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Haffman said:


> LOL. My apologies that someone with my miserably deficient post count has dared to call into question the great Orsini, or is it Orsini the great :icon_hailthee:
> 
> I do find your conclusions on overweight people rather negative, although you seem to be saying that one can be 'handsome' while not 'good-looking', which is a subtlety of difference I do not follow.
> 
> My point was that this somewhat negative viewpoint passed without comment, while the newbie bore the full brunt. That was all, good sir. :icon_peaceplease:


As I said, I usually scroll past this stuff, but I cannot just shrug it off when my material is twisted so blatantly.

Let's try this: think of the icon of your choice. Let's make it Cary Grant in his prime.

I think we can agree that Mr. Grant was generally considered by the public to be a good-looking, handsome fellow. Full head of hair, pleasing features, athletic trim figure, dressed nicely, well spoken, etc.

OK so far? Good!

Now let's add 150 US pounds. Is he still good looking?

Oh, yeah, almost forgot. The reason a lot of posters get in trouble here is that they do not take the time to establish a character. They just barge right in and start to spew that obtuse crap. It's no wonder they are taken or a troll or a jerk, at least.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Thank you for that considerate assessment of a very real and difficult problem for a lot of people in our society.
> 
> By the way, you said just as much, if not more about yourself than you did about your intended victims.


Man, where's your sense of humor? Couldn't you tell that was a joke?


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Oh, BTW, I do like my Krispy Kreams.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Orsini said:


> Oh, yeah, almost forgot. The reason a lot of posters get in trouble here is that they do not take the time to establish a character. They just barge right in and start to spew that obtuse crap. It's no wonder they are taken or a troll or a jerk, at least.


This discussion does not excite the strong feelings, and indeed venom, in me that it does in you. I am happy to let it drop. If you believe overweight people cannot be good looking - as it is a matter of personal opinion - I will grant it to you. 150 pounds overweight is indeed a lot.

You say you are overweight, I am not. You say that you will never be good looking because you are overweight. I accept that this is your view and wish I had never drawn attention to your negative standpoint. Lets leave it there.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Howard said:


> That's what I'm seeing these days. They're right, people don't care on how they look, it's just that you want to feel as comfortable as possible.
> 
> see this? no socks! now how can you go out the house looking like that?


Hey I was just about to post a fit like that for WAYWT with my Chinese shirt roll. I have less pockets though and the flip-flops are blue.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Tiger said:


> I think this is the point where Shaver, et al. enter the fray to play public defender to another cheap shot artist, attacking those who were initially offended while ignoring the horrendous breach of etiquette and decency by their "client."
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist! (I picture Alex sharpening his tailoring needles for me...)


Tiger,

the member I endeavoured to defend had _accidentally_ transgressed and was rounded upon, I felt somewhat unjustly.

The member who made the 'joke' deserves to be called to account.

We are all of us here because we care about the way we look. A new member stumbling across an issue which is sensitive, whilst attempting to express himself, is one thing - a member of long standing provoking the issue for the sake of a quip is quite another.

Given due consideration you may yet be able to discern the difference.

Please be aware: I am neither Djinn nor bottle imp. I do not require summons, invocation by name, to materialise in these threads most finely purposed and for mischief.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Fashion Frank said:


> Amen Brother !
> 
> I play in a band and this past weekend we hit the road to go to a Highland Games and compete against other bands.
> 
> ...


Don't they feel they're gonna trip over something?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

What is it going to take to get this thread back on topic?
Realistically the thread title should be changed to "Our World, dressing down and blimping up", while the US has been in the fore front in eating poorly, dressing down, and sitting on the couch, the rest of the world has been following in lock step (likely due to the internet).
As to the cargo shorts and flops image, if only that is what I was faced with, the typical look in my area is unwashed and unkempt (not discussing the clothes).


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

"Dont they feel like they're gonna trip over something ? "

I like your humour Howard !

My thought exactly and aside from any sense of fashion ,or taste , or even functionality, they are down right dangerous and offer no protection . 

I would always be worring about stubbing a toe !

Also it has long since been proven that footwear like that are harmfull to your feet long term. 

On an aside as far as the other "debate " raging here , its a shame that people today cannot afford each other common courtesy. 

Talking about anyone's weight in general , is like when your wife asks you how she looks in a certain dress and does it make her *ss look big, it always lead to trouble ! 

As I stated in another thread when things like this happens , all I can say is give each other a break ,perhaps grow a little thicker hide , but bottom line ,just get along with each other for the sake of this Forum ,hundreds read what your typing .

I will now get off my soapbox , thank you . 

All the Best ,Frank 

P.S. Can we get back to the topic at hand


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Haffman said:


> This discussion does not excite the strong feelings, and indeed venom, in me that it does in you. I am happy to let it drop. If you believe overweight people cannot be good looking - as it is a matter of personal opinion - I will grant it to you. 150 pounds overweight is indeed a lot.
> 
> You say you are overweight, I am not. You say that you will never be good looking because you are overweight. I accept that this is your view and wish I had never drawn attention to your negative standpoint. Lets leave it there.


**** with the bull and you get the horn.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

Shaver said:


> The member who made the 'joke' deserves to be called to account.
> 
> We are all of us here because we care about the way we look. A new member stumbling across an issue which is sensitive, whilst attempting to express himself, is one thing - a member of long standing provoking the issue for the sake of a quip is quite another.


Lighten up Shave. Admittingly, I've been away from this forum for a long time, but when did it become such a serious and stuffy place? Since you have looked up my profile, you should know my inner child often runs amok.


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## 3holic (Mar 6, 2008)

P.S. I am changing my sig.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Howard said:


> Hey Eagle how about wifebeaters with shorts and flip-flops?


When your commute is like this...flip-flops floating away in the current is not good.







Plastic sandals and shorts are the order of the day, no socks. No wifebeater though, not in the classroom. Too deep for wellies and waders are not readily available.

The buses still run...







...and life carries on as normal.

Suggest that one leave the expensive leather-soled dress shoes at home today.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

MikeDT said:


> When your commute is like this...flip-flops floating away in the current is not good.
> View attachment 4773
> 
> Plastic sandals and shorts are the order of the day, no socks. No wifebeater though, not in the classroom. Too deep for wellies and waders are not readily available.
> ...


wifebeaters are shirts that have no V-neck but show an open chest.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Orsini said:


> The reason a lot of posters get in trouble here is that they do not take the time to establish a character. They just barge right in and start to spew that obtuse crap. It's no wonder they are taken or a troll or a jerk, at least.


Amen!

As for the rest of you trying to bait me into this fray to clean up _*your*_ mess for the second time ... not hap'nin. If anything you may find the thread moved to the I'change.


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## Pingson (Sep 8, 2011)

A little late to the topic, but I didn't find the thread until yesterday.

The whole "dressing down" trend is certainly not only an American phenomenon, we see very similar things here on the other side of the pond. but it is fact not all that surprising I think, if you want to dress even just a little better than the average Joe you have a problem of actually finding decent clothes. In the town where I live her is exactly ONE shop which sells dressier cloths, the text are your regular "high street" stores which ate all selling the same crappy cloths of low quality and with no or extremely ugly design. Add to that that these clothes are relatively cheap and are only meant to be used a few ties until they are replaced by new crap. Most people simply don't know any better than to buy this crap..

As for "dressing as you like" - I'm fine with that actually, as long as I am allowed to dress as I like. But every time I dress even remotely nice at work, like wearing a jacket and/or a tie, I keep getting these snarky remarks about my clothes and how I dress. Now, i don't really care about it anymore, but it's getting really old that I get asked whether I'm having an interview or something every time I "dress up". And this is from people who sometimes can not even manage to wear clean and whole clothes!!


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Amen!
> 
> .


If that coarse and unpleasant homily directed at me is seen by you as prayerful, I truly fear for your soul! :smile:


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

Pingson said:


> As for "dressing as you like" - I'm fine with that actually, as long as I am allowed to dress as I like. But every time I dress even remotely nice at work, like wearing a jacket and/or a tie, I keep getting these snarky remarks about my clothes and how I dress. Now, i don't really care about it anymore, but it's getting really old that I get asked whether I'm having an interview or something every time I "dress up". And this is from people who sometimes can not even manage to wear clean and whole clothes!!


 That's an interesting point and one I can empathise with a little. Even when I'm wearing sport jacket without a tie, etc, I feel a little dressed up within my circle of friends, who generally dress in jeans, worn trainers, t-shirts, etc., even when meeting up for a drink in the city centre at the weekend.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Haffman said:


> If that coarse and unpleasant homily directed at me is seen by you as prayerful, I truly fear for your soul! :smile:


That was certainly not directed at you. You have, without question, established yourself as a character. :smile:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> That was certainly not directed at you. You have, without question, established yourself as a character. :smile:


Alex, remember when you pined for a Shaverism?

I'm pining for a Kabbaz rebuff.

Am I making too much sense these days? Or am I, more likely, on your 'ignore mode'?


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> That was certainly not directed at you. You have, without question, established yourself as a character. :smile:


Brilliant! Then I'll keep my 'obtuse crap' freely flowing, if you'll pardon the expression :smile:


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Pingson said:


> A little late to the topic, but I didn't find the thread until yesterday.
> 
> The whole "dressing down" trend is certainly not only an American phenomenon, we see very similar things here on the other side of the pond. but it is fact not all that surprising I think, if you want to dress even just a little better than the average Joe you have a problem of actually finding decent clothes. In the town where I live her is exactly ONE shop which sells dressier cloths, the text are your regular "high street" stores which ate all selling the same crappy cloths of low quality and with no or extremely ugly design. Add to that that these clothes are relatively cheap and are only meant to be used a few ties until they are replaced by new crap. Most people simply don't know any better than to buy this crap..
> 
> As for "dressing as you like" - I'm fine with that actually, as long as I am allowed to dress as I like. But every time I dress even remotely nice at work, like wearing a jacket and/or a tie, I keep getting these snarky remarks about my clothes and how I dress. Now, i don't really care about it anymore, but it's getting really old that I get asked whether I'm having an interview or something every time I "dress up". And this is from people who sometimes can not even manage to wear clean and whole clothes!!


Sir, this is somewhat to be expected given the generally very egalitarian nature of the locale's societal preference for casual, not standing above any other, culture that embraces modesty of affluence where you are situated. But please do feel that you may always be at your very best on celebratory occasions. This is still a welcome presentation.
However, neither would one relent in the attempt to achieve a sense of what may be better dress with no expectation that it ought to be burdensome to any person to do as they may be able.
Would prefer that ladies and gentlemen did not push the boundaries of what may be better in pursuit of what may be more sensational or just lazy and less than thoughtful. We have here (not here on the forum, but where I am) many who may venture out in pyjamas, sleepwear tops, and house slippers as if that ought to be what one wears when shopping for groceries and sundries. We also have ladies that would not do so without pumps and something nice above with their children.
One may do as one pleases and give deference as appropriate. Once had a boss that ruled out suits and ties for reasons of his own. I'm moved on since then and am free to do as one feels is appropriate on the day, as may my cohorts as they judge to be appropriate. This is ideal.
But a bit of egalitarianism may be overreached and carried to extremes that are not intended. This is how things go off the rails. Be cautious in the moment.
Good wishes for you,
rudy


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

How do you guys feel when someone walking down the street is dressed down and you're all dressed up? Do you think it makes them feel jealous?


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Orsini said:


> Oh, yeah, almost forgot. The reason a lot of posters get in trouble here is that they do not take the time to establish a character....


What do you mean "establish a character"? Is that done in my profile? I'm not sure what you mean.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

dks202 said:


> What do you mean "establish a character"? Is that done in my profile? I'm not sure what you mean.


He means make a sufficient number of posts over a long enough period of time for the membership to learn who you are.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Howard said:


> wifebeaters are shirts that have no V-neck but show an open chest.


Yeh.. exactly... I don't wear such a garment outside at all. I actually wear a mix of coloured polo shirts, and Chinese and Mongolian style shirts.


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## RM Bantista (May 30, 2009)

Howard said:


> How do you guys feel when someone walking down the street is dressed down and you're all dressed up? Do you think it makes them feel jealous?


Mr. Howard,
Not in my experience. Generally, one receives accolades for the outfit and good and respectful treatment from all one encounters. Also, generally, others feel that the world is a better place when a gentleman is present. They say so.
regards,
rudy


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

dks202 said:


> What do you mean "establish a character"? Is that done in my profile? I'm not sure what you mean.


Like in a radio play or a TV show or a film.


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## Starting Late (Apr 26, 2010)

I attended a wedding a couple of weeks ago. Another guest was wearing a tight-fitting suit of the style that has become fashionable. The jacket has short sleeves and a button that looked like it was about to pop. The pants were shorter enough to make me think his tailor was blind. But this fellow was able to pull it off, mostly as a manner of his demeanor and attitude. That taught me something.

Yesterday, I saw a man at an outdoor restaurant wearing the same style tight-fitting suit with his cuffs rolled up several times to reveal about six inches of bear leg above the shoes. He was about 45 years old, was trying way too hard and looked like a clown.

As for me, I am comfortable in conservative clothes. That's my personality and that's where I feel at home.

Last summer, I attended a memorial service in yard of friends who had just lost their daughter. I wore a black and white sports jacket, black pants, a white shirt, a muted tie and a pair of oxfords. Walking in next to me was a fellow wearing an old pair of shorts, a t-shirt, no socks and pair of beat up sneakers. He said, "What's with the clothes? You trying to make us look bad? We're just here to say hello." I said, "I feel comfortable wearing things like this to events of this type. That's just the way I am. You look nice, too."


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

Starting Late;131419
Last summer said:


> "you look nice too."
> 
> Starting late, score ten points for you sir !!
> 
> ...


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Howard said:


> How do you guys feel when someone walking down the street is dressed down and you're all dressed up? Do you think it makes them feel jealous?


Interesting question. I don't know if your implication is that we dress well to excite feelings of jealousy in others? I certainly don't (and do not approve of conspicuous consumption).

But I very much doubt that most people who dress down these days are jealous of those who dress up. He's probably more likely to be thinking: "Poor dude. Schmuck has to wear a suit to work. Glad I don't."


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
+1. Well put Mr Balfour. I suspect that Starting late, in his post #123 above, hit the nail on the head. Most of us dress in the way we feel most comfortable, without a specific intent to impress or to shame others regarding their wardrobing choices. If a compliment comes our way as a result of such efforts, what a pleasant surprise! Should a criticism result...!


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Starting Late said:


> Last summer, I attended a memorial service in yard of friends who had just lost their daughter. I wore a black and white sports jacket, black pants, a white shirt, a muted tie and a pair of oxfords. Walking in next to me was a fellow wearing an old pair of shorts, a t-shirt, no socks and pair of beat up sneakers. He said, "What's with the clothes? You trying to make us look bad? We're just here to say hello." I said, "I feel comfortable wearing things like this to events of this type. That's just the way I am. You look nice, too."


You are very kind.
Most likely I would have already given the "Dad Look" as my sons (20's) call it. A wry response would have been "Yes what is with the clothes?" or "No you are managing well enough on your own?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Howard said:


> How do you guys feel when someone walking down the street is dressed down and you're all dressed up? Do you think it makes them feel jealous?


I can't say I am concerned with their issues or given thought to their feelings. While others in the work place expressed the opinion that "I'm dressed up", I'm of the opinion that I'm dressed appropriately for the unexpected.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

RM Bantista said:


> Mr. Howard,
> Not in my experience. Generally, one receives accolades for the outfit and good and respectful treatment from all one encounters. Also, generally, others feel that the world is a better place when a gentleman is present. They say so.
> regards,
> rudy


I think more people respect you when you are dressed up and they're looking like a slob.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Balfour said:


> Interesting question. I don't know if your implication is that we dress well to excite feelings of jealousy in others? I certainly don't (and do not approve of conspicuous consumption).
> 
> But I very much doubt that most people who dress down these days are jealous of those who dress up. He's probably more likely to be thinking: *"Poor dude. Schmuck has to wear a suit to work. Glad I don't."*


I wonder if that happens here, especially when it has something like "中国银行 Bank of China" on the breast pocket.

TBH the only time I've had to wear a suit was for a couple of job interviews years ago, and my sister's wedding in 1985. Have no requirement to wear one now, and I currently don't own a suit.

My father only ever had one suit that I can remember, a *purple* three-piece thing in the 1970s.


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## lbv2k (Feb 16, 2010)

Balfour said:


> But I very much doubt that most people who dress down these days are jealous of those who dress up. *He's probably more likely to be thinking: "Poor dude. Schmuck has to wear a suit to work. Glad I don't.*"


Very nicely said.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Peter Griffin is a larger gentleman and he mostly gets by with just green trousers and a white shirt with a collar. He wears that at home and in the office.

Peter's father-in-law is more successful and often wears a cravat, but he is usually perceived as a bit of a snob.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Kingstonian said:


> Peter Griffin is a larger gentleman and he mostly gets by with just green trousers and a white shirt with a collar. He wears that at home and in the office.
> 
> Peter's father-in-law is more successful and often wears a cravat, but he is usually perceived as a bit of a snob.


and that's why Peter's Father In Law always seems stuck up.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Howard said:


> and that's why Peter's Father In Law always seems stuck up.


 Indeed.

Peter's outfit is very versatile though. No shorts, shirt has long sleeves, he even wears brown shoes.

At a pinch he could put a tie on and wear a jacket.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

I think it's that little ego inside all of us that make us want to dress up cause we want to feel good about ourselves.


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## Pingson (Sep 8, 2011)

Howard said:


> I think it's that little ego inside all of us that make us want to dress up cause we want to feel good about ourselves.


I can certainly agree with the quote above. My usual motto is "Look good, feel good, do good". I most certainly do better work when I feel good and I happen to feel good when I wear nice cloths. Even if I get remarks from my colleagues about how I dress....


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Howard said:


> I think it's that little ego inside all of us that make us want to dress up cause we want to feel good about ourselves.


I get that feeling when I am working out a lot and am in good shape.

Been a while on that unfortunately but still trying.


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

Howard said:


> I think more people respect you when you are dressed up and they're looking like a slob.


Boy that is a truism,if I ever heard one.
What I think it is, is that you "provoke" one response or the other from a person.

The first response is, "Gee this guy is dressed to the nines, and I look like a slob". 
It ,works on their psyche, they will be come self conscious of it and will then react in the following ways.

They respect the way you look so they offer you a compliment in scenario "A" ,they want to get close to you, befriend you so to speak because of your demeanor and the way you're dressed exudes authority and attracts them to you.

In scenario "B" you will make them feel inadequate because you're " showing them up" ( I heard this sentiment in another thread on this forum ) so they "strike out " at you by trying to insult you, because how dare you show up well heeled and therefore show the glaring difference in being dressed up and looking like a slob and they resent you for it.

All the Best , Frank.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Pingson said:


> I can certainly agree with the quote above. My usual motto is "Look good, feel good, do good". I most certainly do better work when I feel good and I happen to feel good when I wear nice cloths. Even if I get remarks from my colleagues about how I dress....


When I dress up wearing a nice shirt and tie I feel good about myself I don't care how the other person sees me, you always want to dress the part whether it be working inside or outside.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Fashion Frank said:


> Boy that is a truism,if I ever heard one.
> What I think it is, is that you "provoke" one response or the other from a person.
> 
> The first response is, "Gee this guy is dressed to the nines, and I look like a slob".
> ...


See Frank during the cooler weather I'm a cartguy working for Pathmark and I'm wearing a shirt and tie and I get a whole load of respect such as "Can I have a cart sir, or "May I please have a cart sir" or sometimes I would get a nice smile from someone. See what dressing up does to a person?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

as brief reprise to an earlier thematic diversion within this thread and concerning air travel plus attire: when being processed by US immigration two weeks ago those around me (wearing garish oversized shorts, flip flops, and Hollister* t-shirts) were subjected to the usual melange of interrogative questions but the officer who stamped my passport merely complimented my dress (blue overcheck sports coat, plain front chino's, blue/white corded stripe shirt, tan loafers) and waved me through.

I share this in some small measure of pride but moreover to reinforce the satisfying notion I found upon these fora (and which must alas remain uncredited for I am currently unable to locate the source) being that we dress in order to advertise the way in which we wish others to treat us.

*or Abercrombie & Fitch, Superdry et al. Clothes designed for impressionable children but also worn by ludicrous adults.


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## salgy (May 1, 2009)

Shaver said:


> we dress in order to advertise the way in which we wish others to treat us.


absolutely love this... i may have to steal this for my signature box, with respect, of course


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## triklops55 (May 14, 2010)

I try to dress my best most of the time because I've found chicks dig it and most men appreciate the effort I put into it.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Yeah! 

And you get better seats, better service, get taken more seriously at work, are more attractive socially, and get doors opened for you. 

Strategically, there is hardly any downside.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

triklops55 said:


> I try to dress my best most of the time because I've found chicks dig it and most men appreciate the effort I put into it.


I think the way you dress affects the way people talk to you differently, that's just my opinion.


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

Howard said:


> I think it's that little ego inside all of us that make us want to dress up cause we want to feel good about ourselves.





Howard said:


> When I dress up wearing a nice shirt and tie I feel good about myself I don't care how the other person sees me, you always want to dress the part whether it be working inside or outside.


Howard,

Absolute pearls of wisdom. Congrats.


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## Fashion Frank (Jul 14, 2012)

Orsini said:


> Yeah!
> 
> And you get better seats, better service, get taken more seriously at work, are more attractive socially, and get doors opened for you.
> 
> Strategically, there is hardly any downside.


Amen Brother on all the above !

I'm "new " at this but being dressed to the nines, even when I just go out on a Saturday running errands , gets me the same responces you mentioned ,what a pleasant, great unexpected side effect !

And just to think, I was only changing my appearance because I no longer wanted to look like a bum ( I can hear my Grandmother ,when I was a kid, "you look like a bum" ) and I now prefer to " dress to impress " , I must be getting old  .

All the Best , Fashion Frank


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Shaver said:


> as brief reprise to an earlier thematic diversion within this thread and concerning air travel plus attire: when being processed by US immigration two weeks ago those around me (wearing garish oversized shorts, flip flops, and Hollister* t-shirts) were subjected to the usual melange of interrogative questions but the officer who stamped my passport merely complimented my dress (blue overcheck sports coat, plain front chino's, blue/white corded stripe shirt, tan loafers) and waved me through.
> 
> I share this in some small measure of pride but moreover to reinforce the satisfying notion I found upon these fora (and which must alas remain uncredited for I am currently unable to locate the source) being that we dress in order to advertise the way in which we wish others to treat us.
> 
> *or Abercrombie & Fitch, Superdry et al. Clothes designed for impressionable children but also worn by ludicrous adults.


Agreed about the air travel. Making a bit of effort helps when asking for an upgrade too.

I have some Abercrombie & Fitch polo shirts from my university days and I still wear them despite being in my 30s (but only for stuff like slobbing around the house, washing the car, doing the shopping)...but I suppose I do look pretty ludicrous ! Sadly, I can no longer bring myself to wear the T shirts with logo's emblazoned on the front...I dont think an exhausted, not too lean, dad of my age quite does justice to the 'brand image' :wink2:


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Shaver said:


> as brief reprise to an earlier thematic diversion within this thread and concerning air travel plus attire: when being processed by *US* immigration two weeks ago those around me (wearing garish oversized shorts, flip flops, and Hollister* t-shirts) were subjected to the usual melange of interrogative questions but the officer who stamped my passport merely complimented my dress (blue overcheck sports coat, plain front chino's, blue/white corded stripe shirt, tan loafers) and waved me through.


As an asside, I had some real problems with air travel in the States in 2008, which had nothing to do with what I was wearing. Basically my credit cards wouldn't work when booking flights in the US, and extra questioning by the TSA every time going through security. It was like I'm on some US Govt. agency watch list.

I've never experienced anything like that in China though, always just waved straight through, the usual metal-detector and pat-down search, that's it. NO questioning whatsoever.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

MikeDT said:


> ...... extra questioning by the TSA every time going through security. It was like I'm on some US Govt. agency watch list.


Hello MikeDT, as I understand it active members of That Other Forum are on *all *Agencies' 'watch lists'. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Haffman said:


> Agreed about the air travel. Making a bit of effort helps when asking for an upgrade too.
> 
> I have some Abercrombie & Fitch polo shirts from my university days and I still wear them despite being in my 30s (but only for stuff like slobbing around the house, washing the car, doing the shopping)...but I suppose I do look pretty ludicrous ! Sadly, I can no longer bring myself to wear the T shirts with logo's emblazoned on the front...I dont think an exhausted, not too lean, dad of my age quite does justice to the 'brand image' :wink2:


Goodness! Slobbing around the house (how I wish I possessed the time for such an occupation!) and washing the car are of one type but doing the shopping is quite another.

I recall, reading a historical thread pre-dating my membership of this forum, our fellow JLibourel taking not inconsiderable flak for describing ventures across the threshold of his domicile as an 'appearance in public'. I hold to his perspective.

As to clothes distinctly targeted at a youth market, I consider it this way: when I was a juvenile my associates and I entertained a certain modality of dress. Were my parents to share my tastes and to indulge in them then I should have been by turn horrified and embarassed.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

KenR said:


> Howard,
> 
> Absolute pearls of wisdom. Congrats.


just wait and see when you dress up you'll get more smiles than frowns.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Hello MikeDT, as I understand it active members of That Other Forum are on *all *Agencies' 'watch lists'. :icon_smile_wink:


Strange things do happen Shaver. I read and heard about Adam Curry, the former MTV VJ, was always getting stopped for questioning by the TSA at airports in the US. They would never tell him why. John Dvorak, a US tech columnist and blogger, cant buy gas with a couple of his credit cards, apparently they're always declined.

Maybe Balfour and Upr_crust are on a FBI, CIA, NSA or TSA watch list as well? - as they're also active on that other forum.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

LOL. As is Manton, who used to be a speechwriter for President Bush.

Not sure I would describe myself as that "active" over there ...


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

MikeDT said:


> Maybe Balfour and Upr_crust are on a FBI, CIA, NSA or TSA watch list as well? - as they're also active on that other forum.


I got a notice a couple of months ago that I am on the watch list.

I am still waiting for them to send me my free watch.


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## BluePincord (May 14, 2012)

Haffman said:


> I have some Abercrombie & Fitch polo shirts from my university days and I still wear them despite being in my 30s (but only for stuff like slobbing around the house, washing the car, doing the shopping)...but I suppose I do look pretty ludicrous!


I'm dating myself here, I know, but I remember back when Abercrombie was a respectable store.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Balfour said:


> LOL. As is Manton, who used to be a speechwriter for President Bush.
> 
> Not sure I would describe myself as that "active" over there ...


Which president Bush? The half-way good one or Crowley's grandson?

Re The Other Place, which is mercifully not at all in accord with my taste, I just do not possess the hours in the day for extra on-line activity. As much as I enjoy AAAC, and I truly do find it a rewarding venture to be engaged with, it is a very time consuming operation.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

MikeDT said:


> Strange things do happen Shaver. I read and heard about Adam Curry, the former MTV VJ, was always getting stopped for questioning by the TSA at airports in the US. They would never tell him why. John Dvorak, a US tech columnist and blogger, cant buy gas with a couple of his credit cards, apparently they're always declined.
> 
> Maybe Balfour and Upr_crust are on a FBI, CIA, NSA or TSA watch list as well? - as they're also active on that other forum.


It's the Bohemian Grovers that I have to watch out for.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Balfour said:


> Not sure I would describe myself as that "active" over there ...


You cant get 'a bit 'pregnant Balfour :devil::wink2:


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Shaver said:


> As to clothes distinctly targeted at a youth market, I consider it this way: when I was a juvenile my associates and I entertained a certain modality of dress. Were my parents to share my tastes and to indulge in them then I should have been by turn horrified and embarassed.


I take it I should give Hollister a miss then?!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Haffman said:


> I take it I should give Hollister a miss then?!


Not neccesarily. It depends how you wish to be perceived. :devil:


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Shaver said:


> Not neccesarily. It depends how you wish to be perceived. :devil:


So its not possible to be 'timelessly elegant' while also 'down with the kids'?!

For a supermarket trip, I think they are pretty inoffensive. At least I am not in shorts and a wife beater. A dress shirt, blazer, slacks and shoes is just too much of a faff for me when picking up the groceries and I would feel overdressed- especially when the baby is also being sick over me.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Haffman said:


> So its not possible to be 'timelessly elegant' while also 'down with the kids'?!
> 
> For a supermarket trip, I think they are pretty inoffensive. At least I am not in shorts and a wife beater. A dress shirt, blazer, slacks and shoes is just too much of a faff for me when picking up the groceries and I would feel overdressed- especially when the baby is also being sick over me.


May I draw your attention to the thread which addresses that very subject

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/Accessorising-Infant-Vomit


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## MattJP (Aug 18, 2012)

I've noticed the opposite trend within my cohort of men in their late 20s--almost everyone seems to be channeling a vintage aesthetic, hardly anyone wears t-shirts or sneakers anymore. I think it might be younger guys' way of rebelling against their parents generation, who presided over the casualization of everyday life. Of course, I live in Canada, could be different up here...


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## herfitup (Mar 4, 2012)

I had to travel that last three weeks. About 3/4 of the people on the plane were in shorts,tee shirts and sandals, flip-flops or sneakers. The other 1/4 in suits, sports coats or at least a dress ****. It will be interesting to see if the percentages change after school starts and the vacations end.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

sad but true. my wife and I went to a nice restaurant lastnight with a couple of relatives and all 4 of us were dressed up. the restaurant itself was a very nice establishment and based on the decor alone one you would associate with business luncheons, so customers wearing suits are the norm. to my dismay I noticed quite a few customers dressed like absolute slobs. they were wearing t-shirts, baseball caps, shorts and flip-flops. it actually pissed me off to see these individuals dressed down in a classy restaurant as if it were the local Perkins. I felt like going up to these guys, grab them by the scruff of their necks and toss them out on their @ss.

for what it's worth, I have nothing against dressing like a slob as I do this most days of the week. BUT, there's are times when it's inappropriate imo, so nice restaurants and church for example are big no-no's


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

herfitup said:


> I had to travel that last three weeks. About 3/4 of the people on the plane were in shorts,tee shirts and sandals, flip-flops or sneakers. The other 1/4 in suits, sports coats or at least a dress ****. *It will be interesting to see if the percentages change after school starts and the vacations end.*


Probably does depend on the flight and time of year, what people are doing. Whether they're on business or going on holiday. I've noticed on flights between Beijing and Xilinhot(where I am), it's mostly business travellers. Most are dressed quite decently, with dress trousers and shirts, with smart shoes. But if it's something like Spring Festival and people are going home, that's a different matter entirely.

BTW herfitup did you miss the "r" out of shirt, that's why it got asterisked "****" out? 

I think a lot of the times people get upgraded to first or business class, is not because of what they're wearing, but because they have to balance and trim the plane. If everyone was sat back in economy with a load of empty seats up-front in first or business, they might have a problem. I've been upgraded to business from economy a couple of times on flights between the UK and China, and I was wearing jeans, polo shirt and sneakers, change into flip-flops or sandals once the flight gets airborne mainly to avoid possible DVT.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

gaseousclay said:


> sad but true. my wife and I went to a nice restaurant lastnight with a couple of relatives and all 4 of us were dressed up. the restaurant itself was a very nice establishment and based on the decor alone one you would associate with business luncheons, so customers wearing suits are the norm. to my dismay I noticed quite a few customers dressed like absolute slobs. they were wearing t-shirts, baseball caps, shorts and flip-flops. it actually pissed me off to see these individuals dressed down in a classy restaurant as if it were the local Perkins. I felt like going up to these guys, grab them by the scruff of their necks and toss them out on their @ss.
> 
> for what it's worth, I have nothing against dressing like a slob as I do this most days of the week. BUT, there's are times when it's inappropriate imo, so nice restaurants and church for example are big no-no's


LOL. My wife and I recently had the opportunity to eat at the Base Dining Hall serving Whiteman AFB, MO, and they do enforce a dress code for patrons of that fine eatery. We witnessed two patrons asked to leave for wearing open toed shoes/flip-flops. It was comforting to know that some still maintain certain standards!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

gaseousclay said:


> sad but true. my wife and I went to a nice restaurant lastnight with a couple of relatives and all 4 of us were dressed up. the restaurant itself was a very nice establishment and based on the decor alone one you would associate with business luncheons, so customers wearing suits are the norm. to my dismay I noticed quite a few customers dressed like absolute slobs. they were wearing t-shirts, baseball caps, shorts and flip-flops. it actually pissed me off to see these individuals dressed down in a classy restaurant as if it were the local Perkins. I felt like going up to these guys, grab them by the scruff of their necks and toss them out on their @ss.
> 
> for what it's worth, I have nothing against dressing like a slob as I do this most days of the week. BUT, there's are times when it's inappropriate imo, so nice restaurants and church for example are big no-no's


Hello gaseousclay (I got the pun, eventually)

People who when attending, for example, the theatre or better restaurants are inclined to consider it reasonable to dress like slobs or allow their offspring to run wild or talk loudly into mobile phones or even have their phones constantly ringing at ear splitting volume with whatever silly ringtone they feel best expresses their 'personality' and so on and so forth are thieves. They have stolen the enjoyment of others and their selfishness squanders the cash which other patrons have outlayed in hope of a pleasant evening. They may as well pick your pocket and steal your wallet. Shameless scoundrels.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

herfitup said:


> I had to travel that last three weeks. About 3/4 of the people on the plane were in shorts,tee shirts and sandals, flip-flops or sneakers. The other 1/4 in suits, sports coats or at least a dress ****. It will be interesting to see if the percentages change after school starts and the vacations end.


I guess that one half wants to wear what they feel comfortable.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

gaseousclay said:


> sad but true. my wife and I went to a nice restaurant lastnight with a couple of relatives and all 4 of us were dressed up. the restaurant itself was a very nice establishment and based on the decor alone one you would associate with business luncheons, so customers wearing suits are the norm. to my dismay I noticed quite a few customers dressed like absolute slobs. they were wearing t-shirts, baseball caps, shorts and flip-flops. it actually pissed me off to see these individuals dressed down in a classy restaurant as if it were the local Perkins. I felt like going up to these guys, grab them by the scruff of their necks and toss them out on their @ss.
> 
> for what it's worth, I have nothing against dressing like a slob as I do this most days of the week. BUT, there's are times when it's inappropriate imo, so nice restaurants and church for example are big no-no's


people today have no sense of dress.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Shaver said:


> Hello gaseousclay (I got the pun, eventually)
> 
> People who when attending, for example, the theatre or better restaurants are inclined to consider it reasonable to dress like slobs or allow their offspring to run wild or talk loudly into mobile phones or even have their phones constantly ringing at ear splitting volume with whatever silly ringtone they feel best expresses their 'personality' and so on and so forth are thieves. They have stolen the enjoyment of others and their selfishness squanders the cash which other patrons have outlayed in hope of a pleasant evening. They may as well pick your pocket and steal your wallet. Shameless scoundrels.


You know Shaver I see it every day. people these days are ignorant, some of them have no self respect or pride.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

How about the way women dress these days? Some of them have shirts with their bra straps showing. That's quite disgusting when someone is walking down the street or in a fancy restaurant and they see that. Has anyone noticed it?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Howard said:


> How about the way women dress these days? Some of them have shirts with their bra straps showing. That's quite disgusting when someone is walking down the street or in a fancy restaurant and they see that. Has anyone noticed it?


Agreed. Further, and at the risk of appearing curmudgeonly, excessive decolletage is rather vulgar and most unseemly in a lady.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Shaver said:


> Agreed. Further, and at the risk of appearing curmudgeonly, excessive decolletage is rather vulgar and most unseemly in a lady.


Do they dress like that in Manchester?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Howard said:


> Do they dress like that in Manchester?


Crikey! It's to be observed almost everywhere I travel. Over-sexualisation seems to skip merrily hand-in-hand with a dumbed down culture. The commodification of everything that once held value including, if we allow it, our friendships (grr! Facebook) our thoughts (such as they sometimes are - hashtag twitter blah) and even our own bodies.


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## burnedandfrozen (Mar 11, 2004)

Yeah, it's bad out there, has been for years and it doesn't look like it will improve much any time soon. I think younger men just need a role model, someone they can emulate but these well dressed gentlemen are scarce indeed. By the way, some of you may recall a thread I started a couple of years ago when a former flame of mine invited me out to dinner for my birthday and she asked me not to dress up. So it's bad enough when everyone around you doesn't care to make themselves look presentable, but as I know, there are people who will try to bring you down to their level.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

Howard said:


> people these days are ignorant, some of them have no self respect or pride.


it reminds me of the pilot episode of Seinfeld where George shows up at Jerry's apartment wearing sweatpants. Jerry says, "You know the message you're sending out to the world with these sweatpants? You're telling the world, 'I give up. I can't compete in normal society. I'm miserable, so I might as well be comfortable."


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## quiller (Dec 25, 2010)

Sometimes there is a reason for attire that transcends style.I have been an Attorney for 38 years,and for much of that time I was in a suit and tie.Today I am in the office wearing flip flops with a shirt and pants.I am not shooting for a fashion statement ,but am bowing to the realities of a gout attack.I can assure you that no shoes ,regardless of quality ,would be bearable.
Otherwise,I have to admit that as a rule well dressed does come with its rewards.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Shaver said:


> Which president Bush? The half-way good one or Crowley's grandson?


Bush the younger, speeches on foreign and defense policy.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

arkirshner said:


> Bush the younger, speeches on foreign and defense policy.


In which case I am even more impressed.

Having to provide foreign policy speeches to a fellow who was unable to point out a nation on a map of the world must have been a Herculean task.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

^ Really, isn't Bush-bashing passe by now? Sounds like Interchange territory to me.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

Balfour said:


> ^ Really, isn't Bush-bashing passe by now? Sounds like Interchange territory to me.


Bush-bashing is never passe. the guy was dumber than a box of hammers


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

If not passe, then just uncommon. We have new men to bash.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

arkirshner said:


> If not passe, then just uncommon. We have new men to bash.


LOL. We are in a target rich environment too.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Balfour said:


> ^ Really, isn't Bush-bashing passe by now? Sounds like Interchange territory to me.


A fair point.

In my (limited) defence I didn't bring him up and was merely musing.

Sorry.

More contemporaneously, that Todd Akin is some guy isn't he?


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## herfitup (Mar 4, 2012)

MikeDT said:


> Probably does depend on the flight and time of year, what people are doing. Whether they're on business or going on holiday. I've noticed on flights between Beijing and Xilinhot(where I am), it's mostly business travellers. Most are dressed quite decently, with dress trousers and shirts, with smart shoes. But if it's something like Spring Festival and people are going home, that's a different matter entirely.
> 
> *BTW herfitup did you miss the "r" out of shirt, that's why it got asterisked "****" out? *
> 
> I think a lot of the times people get upgraded to first or business class, is not because of what they're wearing, but because they have to balance and trim the plane. If everyone was sat back in economy with a load of empty seats up-front in first or business, they might have a problem. I've been upgraded to business from economy a couple of times on flights between the UK and China, and I was wearing jeans, polo shirt and sneakers, change into flip-flops or sandals once the flight gets airborne mainly to avoid possible DVT.


I work with two computers. Personal one has a sticky "R" key and the work one doesn't. I wasn't careful on the personal computer.

Believe me the people that get upgraded to first class have flown more miles on the airline no matter how bad or well they are dressed. The rest of first class just pays the full freight. Once you are in the air it is up to the crew. Only the little tin cans have weight and balance problems that get corrected on the ground. They usually don't have a first class cabin.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Shaver said:


> A fair point.
> 
> In my (limited) defence I didn't bring him up and was merely musing.
> 
> ...


Until fairly recently party "bosses" selected candidates for federal offices and sought to find candidates who could best appeal to a majority of voters. Consequently, candidates from both parties tended to be centrists. Over time there has been a "democratization" of our process so that today candidates are chosen in partisan primaries with relatively low participation, and those who do vote in primaries tend to be ideologically driven. As a result a lot of extremists win nominations. In general elections, those of us who consider ourselves moderates often find ourselves choosing between a rock and a hard place.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

gaseousclay said:


> it reminds me of the pilot episode of Seinfeld where George shows up at Jerry's apartment wearing sweatpants. Jerry says, "You know the message you're sending out to the world with these sweatpants? You're telling the world, 'I give up. I can't compete in normal society. I'm miserable, so I might as well be comfortable."


It's what one thinks when that person leaves the house dressed like a slob and has no pride in how you look towards others.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

gaseousclay said:


> Bush-bashing is never passe. the guy was dumber than a box of hammers


I'll leave this debate to you guys.

What I particularly object to about Bush-bashing over here (meaning Europe rather than simply the UK) is that often underneath it there is an ugly anti-Americanism more generally.(*)

The media distort things terribly (duh!) - but it is annoying to have Bush constantly presented as a 'the worst President ever' and Obama presented as the second coming. I guess the media are never good at shades of grey, but I suspect that is extenuated when reporting overseas politics.

Anyway, Balfour's statement of the blindingly obvious should probably be wound up here!

(*) I entirely acquit Shaver of this - speaking more generally.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

arkirshner said:


> Until fairly recently party "bosses" selected candidates for federal offices and sought to find candidates who could best appeal to a majority of voters. Consequently, candidates from both parties tended to be centrists. Over time there has been a "democratization" of our process so that today candidates are chosen in partisan primaries with relatively low participation, and those who do vote in primaries tend to be ideologically driven. As a result a lot of extremists win nominations. _*In general elections, those of us who consider ourselves moderates often find ourselves choosing between a rock and a hard place.*_


And left to select the least worst idiot.

And you foreigners mind you own business...


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Hey Shaver how do you feel about guys that wear their pants half the way down to their knees and has their undwerwear showing? I see a lot of it here in New York City. Quite disgusting I might say.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Howard said:


> Hey Shaver how do you feel about guys that wear their pants half the way down to their knees and has their undwerwear showing? I see a lot of it here in New York City. Quite disgusting I might say.


Ah sagging. Howard I've yet to actually this fad here in Inner Mongolia. Maybe New York City is more _fashion forward_ than Xilinhot?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Orsini said:


> And you foreigners mind you own business...


American foreign policy is _everyone's_ business. You are, after all, the major superpower.



Howard said:


> Hey Shaver how do you feel about guys that wear their pants half the way down to their knees and has their undwerwear showing? I see a lot of it here in New York City. Quite disgusting I might say.


Unsurprisingly, I feel exactly the same way about it as I do _any_ underwear showing on _any _person.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Shaver said:


> American foreign policy is _everyone's_ business. _*You are, after all, the major superpower*_...


 I hope so as it certainly costs enough and has been enough burden over the years.

But the supply of cuckoo clocks, fine mid-engined handling, and charming women who speak in complete paragraphs must be maintained...

Oh yes, and it is bad manners (anybody remember those?) to hassle some unfortunate foreigner about their domestic political aggravations -- particularly at their election time.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Orsini said:


> I hope so as it certainly costs enough and has been enough burden over the years.
> 
> But the supply of cuckoo clocks, fine mid-engined handling, and charming women who speak in complete paragraphs must be maintained...
> 
> Oh yes, and it is bad manners (anybody remember those?) to hassle some unfortunate foreigner about their domestic political aggravations -- particularly at their election time.


Hello Orsini,

cuckoo clocks? Whilst a concededly amusing allusion to one of Mr Wells' finest moments is nevertheless wholly inapplicable to an Englishman.

As to bad manners, well, I would suggest that it could be considered intolerably ill mannered to ascribe to a fellow a motivation (in this instance 'hassling') which is quite simply not extant.

What happens in your great nation resonates around the whole world and it is only reasonable that foreigners might occasionally ruminate the machinations.

I will not be baited into even the faintest shade of Anti-Americanism as I do not subscribe to such a perspective.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Gentlemen: There should be no need to remind any of you that politics are NOT allowed in the Fashion Forum.

None of you are new here, and all of you agreed to know and abide by the rules, when you signed up.

There will not be another reminder.

For anyone having difficulty finding the rules page (and I pity you, if _that _is enough to confound you) here is the applicable rule:

2. No politics in the Fashion, Trad, or Women's Clothing Forums. That's what the Interchange Forum is for. Ask Andy is a politically and culturally ecumenical website, and we all benefit from the contributions of members from around the world. We want people from all nations and backgrounds and political persuasions to feel welcome to share their interest in clothing here. Critiquing world leaders' clothing is fine. When political discussions or insults against world leaders (not related to clothes) crop up in a clothing Forum, they will be moved or deleted at the discretion of the moderators.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Gentlemen: There should be no need to remind any of you that politics are NOT allowed in the Fashion Forum.
> 
> None of you are new here, and all of you agreed to know and abide by the rules, when you signed up.
> 
> ...


Oops! Sorry.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Shaver said:


> American foreign policy is _everyone's_ business. You are, after all, the major superpower.
> 
> Unsurprisingly, I feel exactly the same way about it as I do _any_ underwear showing on _any _person.


Whatever happened to parents talking to kids about fashion?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Howard said:


> Whatever happened to parents talking to kids about fashion?


I learned about fashion from the streets.

Just like sex.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Gentlemen: There should be no need to remind any of you that politics are NOT allowed in the Fashion Forum.
> 
> None of you are new here, and all of you agreed to know and abide by the rules, when you signed up.
> 
> ...


Yes, sir.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I learned about fashion from the streets.
> 
> Just like sex.


I'm just saying parents should have a discussion you shouldn't have your kid go out of the house wearing what he/she wants, take some time to talk to your kid.


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