# Walther P99



## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

I wonder if any of you have ever used any version of the handgun, or heard about it directly from someone who has, someone you trust and respect. Is it good? Is it junk?

Previously, I've been mainly interested in the Beretta 92FS (or, more likely, the .40S&W 96FS variant) and the H&K USP-40. All I know about the P99 is that it's a nice-looking gun.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm pretty sure it's not _bad_. Honestly though, I don't see much that differentiates it from other 9mm pistols besides that James Bond carried it.

The friends and family I know who are/were in the armed forces don't take too kindly to the M9, which is basically a 92FS with simpler sights. Then again, they don't like the M16/M4 for the same reason -- both don't perform well on the battlefield.

I've heard that HK pistols are well-made and perform admirably but nonetheless are overpriced.

So that leads me to this question: What are you buying a pistol for? Target practice? Self defence? Both? This would help guide your responses greatly.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Well...I haven't yet seen the James Bond movie with it, or if I did, I didn't notice this gun. Where I first noticed this gun was in _Dark Angel_, the James Cameron series from 2000-2002 starring Jessica Alba. The P99 was the most common handgun carried by the Manticore agents. Its unusual shape, as seen head-on, is what drew my attention to it. I'm speaking of the way the sides are flat but tilted in toward the top, rather than having a squared-off profile like the H&K USP or Glocks, or rounded like the Beretta 92 series.

It has some features that differentiate it much more from the Beretta 92/96 series than the H&K USP, such as the accessory rail and the polymer frame, both of which are features the H&K USP also has. There are newer Beretta designs that have the accessory rails, updated versions of the 92/96 series, but I don't like those as much. The Beretta Px4 Storm has both rails and a polymer frame, and a head-on profile somewhat like the P99, and actually might be another model I wind up taking a much closer look at.

The P99 (the AS variant) also has some kind of special fancy trigger mechanism intended to reduce the chance of accidentally squeezing off more shots than you mean to in a stressful situation. That's described on the link in my original post. It actually sounds kind of complicated and confusing, but maybe in practice it's much simpler than it reads.

Anyway, I know that in practical terms, aesthetics should be very low on the priority list of things to consider when choosing a handgun. But frankly, if I can find two guns that have a great set of features and great reliability, and one of them looks nice and the other is ugly, I'm going with the nice-looking one. The Beretta 92/96 and Px4 Storm and the Walther P99 are all good-looking guns, in my opinion; in fact, I've even described the Beretta 92 as "sexy" in the past. I mean, look at its curves...Anyway, the H&K USP is an oddball. If I heard its description but hadn't seen it, I probably would have assumed it was ugly, like all Glocks are. But there's something about it that draws me in. I actually think it's the fact that many police agencies, as well as various national militaries, including special forces units, respect this gun so highly that compensates for its less-than-sexy looks, to be honest. The USP is the basis of the SOCOM Mk23, after all.

So unless there's no special reason to remove any gun I happen to think is good-looking from my short list of those to consider, I'll just have to try them all and see if I'm being pulled to one in particular.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

In this case, pick the one that feels the best in your hands. I think the 92FS and P99 have great ergonomics.

USPs feel awkward to me somehow. However, the Gainesville Police Department use them in .40SW so I suppose they have something going for them. Previously they used the Glock 17.

It seems like a lot of police departments are switching to .40SW pistols these days. Sort of a compromise between the low recoil of 9mm LP and stopping power of the .45ACP. I guess all the horror stories of 9mm are catching on.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

I have a vague recollection that years ago, when the Maryland State Police switched to .40 S&W, one of the reasons, or at least something mentioned at the time, was that 9mm could not penetrate a car windshield, but .40 S&W could. I'm not sure if that's accurate, or if I understand it; I thought one of 9mm's problems was that it had a tendency to over-penetrate, and posed a risk to bystanders _behind_ the target. Unless it's hollow-points being used, but I didn't think the police used those...maybe I'm wrong.

The only thing really against the 92FS is its weight. It's an all-metal gun, unlike all the others being discussed. But then again, it's not like I'm going to be actually carrying it on my person (thanks to the laws of MD), so it doesn't matter a whole lot. But despite its total weight, it's _well-balanced_ weight, i always thought (I used to own one). Polymer-frame guns can feel top-heavy, it sometimes seems. The 92FS is also the least expensive, and by no small margin. However, I would prefer to go with .40 S&W, but I don't see a 96FS model on Beretta's product page. Just a 96A1, which adds an accessory rail that somewhat breaks up the FS variant's clean, classic lines.

Now if only they still made the 96FS in Inox (stainless)... I could have sworn they used to, but apparently not anymore.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

I've had a Beretta 96 since 2005, it never failed me. I think it's an intimidating & beautiful (this is a fashion forum after all) gun which makes a unique metallic sound when going off. The sound of it locking and loading is enough to scare people off. I wouldn't say it never jams, but it's a very good primary firearm. I prefer .22 on a leg holster as secondary or primary sometimes. I used it exclusively for self defense or offense.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

camorristi said:


> I've had a Beretta 96 since 2005, it never failed me. I think it's an intimidating & beautiful (this is a fashion forum after all) gun which makes a unique metallic sound when going off. The sound of it locking and loading is enough to *scare people* off. I wouldn't say it never jams, but it's a very good primary firearm. I prefer .22 on a leg holster as secondary or primary sometimes. I used it exclusively for self defense or *offense*.


You sound tough. But are you sure it isn't your white shoes that scare people?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

"A man walks down the street in [white shoes], people know he's not afraid of anything."

JJR512: Can't say I've ever heard of that round over penetrating _anything_! (Though, it was pretty amusing to see it do just that in _Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_.) Hollowpoints, IIRC, are supposed to bloom on impact and offer some more stopping force at the cost of penetration. For that very reason, my stepfather's friend uses them for home defence.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

6:05 a.m. Maine Time

Oh swell.
I get up to _this_.
Jovan, Justin, Camo and Pent up all night talking about guns. 
Bang, bang. Thread's dead.


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## challer (Sep 4, 2008)

The Walther is a very nice weapon with solid features. On the deluxe side, look at the Sig 226 and variants. And there is a reason nearly every police department uses a Glock. Pick the largest caliper you are comfortable shooting. A well place shot from a .22 beats a .45 missed everyday. So, go the store and see what is comfortable. Try shooting a few that you like and just choose based on that. I shoot Glock 9mm and .45s but that should not influence what you choose as I'm not the one pulling your trigger!


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Peak and Pine said:


> 6:05 a.m. Maine Time
> 
> Oh swell.
> I get up to _this_.
> ...


 C'mon man, I liked you when you were complimenting everyone.


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## chamjoe (Oct 26, 2009)

It's all about preference. I'm a Sig guy personally but all of the brands mentioned are top quality. Get what you think looks best. When staying in the same class I've never noticed one being better than the other. I've shot a full size walther 9mm before and I could hit the target so I have no complaints.


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## Centaur (Feb 2, 2010)

I looked at the website you linked and was surprised at the prices Walther America appear to be charging. I was in Austria a few weeks ago and by chance found myself outside a shop selling Walthers and other small automatics - rather a curiosity, as you don't often find gun shops in Europe. I can't quote the exact price for the PPK which caught my eye, but I'm certain it was a lot lower than Walther America's.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Everything mankind needed to know about handguns was discovered in 1911!! 

.45 ACP

Trad baby!!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

camorristi said:


> I've had a Beretta 96 since 2005, it never failed me. I think it's an intimidating & beautiful (this is a fashion forum after all) gun which makes a unique metallic sound when going off. The sound of it locking and loading is enough to scare people off. I wouldn't say it never jams, but it's a very good primary firearm. I prefer .22 on a leg holster as secondary or primary sometimes. I used it exclusively for self defense or offense.


Sorry but, I have to ask, how often has it been necessary for you to defend (or offend?) yourself, using a firearm? :icon_scratch:


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## Centaur (Feb 2, 2010)

camorristi said:


> ... I used it exclusively for self defense or offense.


In what other ways could it have been used I wonder?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> Sorry but, I have to ask, how often has it been necessary for you to defend (or offend?) yourself, using a firearm?


That was my first thought. I think he probably meant to say that is why he owns a handgun rather than what he uses it for since few ever actually use the things for that purpose. Keep in mind that I'm not being critical because I have a handgun carry permit and a handgun, although I must admit that it generally resides under my mattress. :icon_smile_big:

Without getting into the pros and cons of owning a firearm, my personal feeling is that unless one is a gun nut who loves to tinker with guns, a semi-automatic of any brand isn't the best choice for a personal defense handgun.

The best choice would be a revolver because it is nearly maintenance free compared to a semi and almost never fails when being fired; and if it does fail you can simply pull the trigger again and move on the next round. In addition to these good features, a high quality revolver will cost significantly less than it's semi counterpart.

Finally, a revolver is safer when being carried around. Heck, the things don't even require a safety to be safer than a semi.

All in all I believe that for the casual gun owner who doesn't use the weapon professionally, such as for law enforcement, a revolver is almost always the best choice.

Cruiser


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## harvey_birdman (Mar 10, 2008)

I own the Beretta 92FS and am very happy with it. I also considered the Ruger P89 and tried them both out at a shooting range before purchasing the Beretta. 

Both are perfectly capable firearms if taken care of and adequately maintained. The 9mm cartridge may not be as "powerful" as some other cartridges, but this can be just as much a positive as it can be a negative. 

The best firearm for you is the one that fits you best. The only way to determine this is to go fire off some rounds.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Centaur said:


> In what other ways could it have been used I wonder?


Utility. Homer Simpson used his gun for everything. Turning the TV on, opening his beer.. you name it....

But seriously.

One of my many careers was "Arms Dealer." The Walther is a solid weapon with a good history, but like anything it has it's limitations.

The 9mm round is small with A LOT of velocity, resulting in minimal kinetic energy transfer as compared to a 40cal or a 45cal. which are larger and travel slower (hence transfer energy to target faster). Kinetic energy transfer results in target knockdown. Target knockdown results in Shock. Shock results in target incapacitation, which is the final goal.

The advantage of 9mm over 45cal is that you get 15 rounds (M9) vs 7 rounds (1911). This would be great if two 9mm rounds could provide the same effect as a single 45cal round. Unfortunately this is not the case. This is why the FBI, and many other law enforcement agencies chose the 40cal (formerly the 10mm) over the 9mm. You get more rounds than with a 1911, but less than an M9/Glock17.

When I was choosing my carry piece, and recommending one for my wife we chose the 1911 (4") and the H&K P2000 40cal, respectfully. I hope neither of us has to ever use our weapons, but should we have to I want to ensure they are going to be effective on the would be wrongdoer.

A former co-worker (purper heart recipient) in Somalia was shot, and his team returned fire with their M9's (92FS 9mm). The local was "hopped up" on the local vegetation and it took over twenty 9mm rounds before he fell down.

I decided to "go big or go home."


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> That was my first thought. I think he probably meant to say that is why he owns a handgun rather than what he uses it for since few ever actually use the things for that purpose. Keep in mind that I'm not being critical because I have a handgun carry permit and a handgun, although I must admit that it generally resides under my mattress. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Without getting into the pros and cons of owning a firearm, my personal feeling is that unless one is a gun nut who loves to tinker with guns, a semi-automatic of any brand isn't the best choice for a personal defense handgun.
> 
> ...


/nod.

The only issue with revolvers is the low caliber size in many cases.


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## Shawl Lapel (Jul 5, 2010)

I have the 92FS and I like it. I have big hands so it fits well, and it's easy to shoot/maintain. Out of the handguns that I've shot and handled though, my favorite is the SigPro .40. The ergonomics fit my hands perfectly and while it's got more punch than the 92 I feel it's easier to handle.


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## JustJosh (Nov 25, 2009)

I'll start with the OP.

I own a pre S&W Walther P99 in .40 
It's a nice gun, but honestly I'm not huge into polymer pistols (this is my only one and I am considering selling)
There are different models of it available, so you should look into that when making a choice. Also, I would lean toward getting a real Walther, not a S&W99.

H&Ks are well built firearms and have a ridiculous fan base. First hand I do not have alot of experience with them, as I have not chosen to "Drink the H&K Koolaid". Though anyone I know professionally or personally that carries one does in fact love it.

Beretta 92, is a large, heavy/bulky gun in most peoples eyes. Regardless, I still love the old Berettas.

The new Storms do come in a variety of sizes with a bunch of new features, see how they feel.



> The only issue with revolvers is the low caliber size in many cases.


Huh? Revolvers are available in more calibers than autos.



> Finally, a revolver is safer when being carried around. Heck, the things don't even require a safety to be safer than a semi.


Not so unless you are ONLY considering very modern firearms. Most revolvers were carried with 5 rounds opposed to 6 because a good jolt could potentially send the hammer down on a live round even when not cocked.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

JustJosh said:


> I'll start with the OP.
> 
> I own a pre S&W Walther P99 in .40
> It's a nice gun, but honestly I'm not huge into polymer pistols (this is my only one and I am considering selling)
> ...


More calibres does not equate to larger calibres (without getting into excessive carry size).

"Very" Modern revolvers is over 40 years... The Gun Control Act of 1968 as it applies to imported firearms, and drop testing. Various other forms of firing pin disconnects such as grip safeties and transfer bars have existed since the 1911 was introduced (yes I know that was a semi-automatic, but the technology is the same).


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

A few questions that you should answer first.

1. Why do you want to buy a handgun?
2. What do you plan on doing with it, once you have it?
3. How much training are you willing to put into owning a handgun?
4. Have you carefully thought through the issues with owning a handgun?
5. Have you spent much time with the handgun on the range, to get an understanding of its ergonomics and function?

If you haven't considered and answered these questions, don't buy a handgun.

Caliber is less important than ergonomics and the ability to recover from recoil. 9mm vs. .40 vs. 357 SIG vs. 10mm vs. .45 ACP. Doesn't matter. If you're comfortable with a handgun, you can shoot it, and get it back on target, you'll put lead and copper into what you are shooting. Small hands and small size suggest you not go for a bigger handgun or a larger caliber handgun. Storing a handgun in the nightstand will allow you greater flexibility in what you have. Concealment, not so much, unless you are tall and have a large frame.

A few thoughts:

1. M9/92FS - I've got a few and I qualify every year with one. It's an old design, with double action/single action trigger, and it's bulky. If it weren't the USGI pistol, I wouldn't have it. Easy to repair, magazines are cheap, it's not that concealable.

2. SIG - Beautiful pistols. Expensive too. The bore axis is too high for me (affecting recoil) and I don't like the DA/SA versions. Go for a DAO (double action only) version if you must.

3. HK - Beautiful pistols. Also expensive. And, since they're German, there are never design flaws, only operator errors. Customer service is horrible and parts and magazines are expensive. Trigger reset (important for gunfighting) is for ****.

4. Glock - Like the plain-looking girl next door. Not much to look at, but she'll rock all night with right amount of lubrication, and be ready for more in the morning. Not expensive. As it's Austrian, shares some of the same traits as HK, but customer service is better. My preferred handgun and the one I carry concealed is a G19.

5. 1911/1911A1/Government Model/Etc - If trad were a handgun, this handgun would be it. Seriously, plus the Almighty carries this pistol. If you like Harleys and you like to tinker with your pistols, this is the one for you. If not, don't get one. I've had several over the years and learned the hard way when I cracked a frame on one because I didn't spend enough time on maintenance. Still have a few, because they are amazing weapons.

6. Revolvers - The trad runner-up. I've seen some amazing wheelgunners, but they spend their lives practicing. The rest of us don't have the luxury, which is why John Moses Browning gave us the 1911 and the Browning Hi-Power. Wheelguns fail too and the trigger pull can affect shot placement. Years ago I sold my S&W Model 66 with 4" barrel. I learned how to operate a semi-auto, to include clearing malfunctions and reloading, and never looked back.

The last piece is training. The NRA has a few courses that are pretty good for basic firearms understanding and a basic understanding of the legal and other issues surrounding the use of firearms. Many jurisdictions will accept these courses for the training requirement on concealed carry permit and, frankly, while very good courses that one should take, they are insufficient. And, for most Americans, shooting is like sex - We think we were born proficient. We're not. 3-5 days of training and 500-1000 rounds will give you some basic skills, instill in you an understanding of the strengths and limitations of firearms, and give you some confidence that you can use one if you've no other options.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

Wow.....you guys know a lot about guns.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

ZachGranstrom said:


> Wow.....you guys know a lot about guns.


Guns are a clothing accessory. This is a clothing forum. 

Just wait til we start talking about holsters.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

Leather or kydex? Or something exotic? :icon_smile_big:


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

JustJosh said:


> Not so unless you are ONLY considering very modern firearms. Most revolvers were carried with 5 rounds opposed to 6 because a good jolt could potentially send the hammer down on a live round even when not cocked.


OK, but keep in mind that my unstated assumption was that most folks who go out and buy a handgun today for personal defense are going to buy a modern handgun rather than an antique. Just a hunch, mind you. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## dmbfrisb (Apr 17, 2010)

My heart's always been with the ol' reliable Walther PPK, however it is a smaller caliber than the PP9


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

dmbfrisb said:


> My heart's always been with the ol' reliable Walther PPK, however it is a smaller caliber than the PP9


I had a PPK/S and it kicked like a mule, which was surprising given that it was a metal pistol chambered in .380. Another issue with the PPK/S and PPK is that women have difficulty in racking the slide to chamber a round.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

El_Abogado said:


> 6. Revolvers - The trad runner-up.


Give me an old Model 10 any day!!

(I do prefer DA revolvers, I'm not THAT Trad!!)


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> 6:05 a.m. Maine Time
> 
> Oh swell.
> I get up to _this_.
> ...


:icon_smile_big:



WouldaShoulda said:


> Everything mankind needed to know about handguns was discovered in 1911!!
> 
> .45 ACP
> 
> Trad baby!!


Quote me, the .45 ACP is the Brooks Brothers of hand guns, while the Beretta 96 is the Brioni of hand guns. Now, does it get cheesier than that?! :icon_smile_big: I'll always buy Berettas.



eagle2250 said:


> Sorry but, I have to ask, how often has it been necessary for you to defend (or offend?) yourself, using a firearm? :icon_scratch:


Well, I haven't had any trouble since I moved to IN in 2008, but back in NJ, I'd say about once every 2-3 months. Good question !



Centaur said:


> In what other ways could it have been used I wonder?


How about framing it, and adding gold inlays and hanging it on the wall?!



Cruiser said:


> That was my first thought. I think he probably meant to say that is why he owns a handgun rather than what he uses it for since few ever actually use the things for that purpose. Keep in mind that I'm not being critical because I have a handgun carry permit and a handgun, although I must admit that it generally resides under my mattress. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Without getting into the pros and cons of owning a firearm, my personal feeling is that unless one is a gun nut who loves to tinker with guns, a semi-automatic of any brand isn't the best choice for a personal defense handgun.
> 
> ...


Very wise advice, I have a rule-of-thumb never to walk with a caliber larger than 22LR (always on a leg holster), a 9mm can go through 6 people, and you don't want that. And, yes a revolver would be easier to handle and maintain. But, it all depends on where you live, and what kind of threats you face.

"Don't carry a gun, it's nice to have them close by. But don't carry them. You might get arrested." John Gotti

I have a friend of mine who's with me most of the time, and he carries a 45 magnum everywhere, I don't really need to carry a handgun.



Pentheos said:


> You sound tough. But are you sure it isn't your white shoes that scare people?


Have you ever thought that not everyone was born in a 24hr cc monitored gated community with a silver spoon in their mouths?! You sir, are a sociopath.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

El_Abogado said:


> Leather or kydex? Or something exotic? :icon_smile_big:


How about something practical


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

El_Abogado said:


> Leather or kydex? Or something exotic? :icon_smile_big:


I use a nice leather small of the back. At the time, I spent the majority of the day standing and it was comfortable, practical, wore well, and was easily concealed (and accessible). In suits I prefer a shoulder rig (Galco makes a few great ones), and leather is my preferred material for comfort.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> That was my first thought. I think he probably meant to say that is why he owns a handgun rather than what he uses it for since few ever actually use the things for that purpose. Keep in mind that I'm not being critical because I have a handgun carry permit and a handgun, although I must admit that it generally resides under my mattress. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Without getting into the pros and cons of owning a firearm, my personal feeling is that unless one is a gun nut who loves to tinker with guns, a semi-automatic of any brand isn't the best choice for a personal defense handgun.
> 
> ...


This is good advice, but keep in mind that not everyone can comfortably shoot a revolver. The long, heavy trigger pull might make it difficult for newer shooters to put lead on target accurately.

That being said, my next pistol will most likely be a wheel gun since I've already scratched my 1911 and BHP itches several times over.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

camorristi said:


> How about something practical


Oh yeah. Implicitly, I was talking about a main carry piece, not a back-up carry piece. I'm all in favor of a G26 in a neoprene ankle holster as a back-up to the G19 in a Blade-Tech IWB holster.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

Apatheticviews said:


> I use a nice leather small of the back. At the time, I spent the majority of the day standing and it was comfortable, practical, wore well, and was easily concealed (and accessible). In suits I prefer a shoulder rig (Galco makes a few great ones), and leather is my preferred material for comfort.


I regret the day I sold my Miami Classic for the 1911. . . . Buddy of mine used to work for the Company and he carried a Commander in a S.O.B. holster. My recollection is that when he was in, they trained with BHPs in small-of-the-back holsters.

Something to consider with that holster is what might happen if you find yourself on your back, perhaps put there violently. The S.O.B. holster and pistol may lead to additional injuries in such situations, unlike with the strong-side holster or shoulder holster.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Give me an old Model 10 any day!!
> 
> (I do prefer DA revolvers, I'm not THAT Trad!!)


Now there's a man after my own heart! I was just shooting my heavy-barreled Model 10 Smith & Wesson this very day and thinking how much there was to be said for the revolver--what elegant simplicity, what utter reliability!

Beyond that, I don't have much to add to this except to add a hearty "Amen" to what my old buddy Cruiser had to say. I think he stated the matter very well.

As to JustJosh's comment about "very modern firearms," hey, man, this isn't 1906 anymore! Just about every revolver except for old-fashioned Peacemaker types made since about 1900 has had some sort of positive hammer-blocking safety system, certainly any revolver any sensible person would choose for personal defense.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Lots of things I want to reply to, and I'm going to do it all in one post, so bear with me...



Jovan said:


> Can't say I've ever heard of that round over penetrating _anything_! (Though, it was pretty amusing to see it do just that in _Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_.) Hollowpoints, IIRC, are supposed to bloom on impact and offer some more stopping force at the cost of penetration. For that very reason, my stepfather's friend uses them for home defence.


Really? I thought one of the problems with 9mm was they had a tendency to pass easily through soft material (i.e., flesh) without actually causing a lot of damage along the way. Unless I'm very much mistaken, the penetrating ability of 9mm ball rounds come from its high velocity couple with its low profile, meaning not as much drag placed upon it my the material it's passing through to slow it down. I'm speaking of traditional ammo, not hollowpoints. Hollowpoints of course won't have the over-penetration problem, but they would still suffer from a relative lack of energy transferred compared to larger rounds, as Apatheticviews discusses in #19 below.



challer said:


> And there is a reason nearly every police department uses a Glock.


Every single police department in the world, every single military force of all nations in all the world, and every single gun magazine published could all say that Glocks are the absolutely, unquestionably, in all respects the best guns, but I still would not buy one. I admit that aesthetics are a poor criterion for selecting a handgun, but I just can't get past their ugliness. Fortunately, agreement on the superiority of a Glock is not _nearly_ universal, not by a long shot. Additionally, I wouldn't necessarily consider the number of police departments using a particular gun to carry any special weight. Police departments have many factors to consider, including price. I'd put a lot more respect behind what special forces units choose.



WouldaShoulda said:


> Everything mankind needed to know about handguns was discovered in 1911!!
> 
> .45 ACP
> 
> Trad baby!!


I don't care much about being "trad" (if I'm trad by accident, that's nice, I have nothing against it, but I don't deliberately aim for it)&#8230;But I am considering .45 ACP. It's my second choice behind .40 S&W, or maybe they're roughly even. Unfortunately, the Walther P99 isn't available in that chambering, nor are the Berettas I've mentioned. I believe that of the guns I've mentioned (the ones I'm interested in), only the H&K USP line is available in .45 ACP, which is another reason it's rather high on my list of models I'm interested in.

On a side note, I am interested in acquiring a genuine Colt 1911, from no later than WWII. This is more for a collection piece than for any practical purpose, although I would want one that is fully functional, and I would definitely put some rounds through it at first. Other handguns I'm interested in collecting include a genuine WWII Luger, and a Walther P38, among others. Oh, and I'd also really like a genuine Colt Single Action Army, aka "Peacemaker", the gun most commonly associated with cowboys.  I'd also like to get a US Army-issue (WWII-era) Thompson submachine gun, and an M1 Garrand rifle.



Cruiser said:


> Without getting into the pros and cons of owning a firearm, my personal feeling is that unless one is a gun nut who loves to tinker with guns, a semi-automatic of any brand isn't the best choice for a personal defense handgun.
> 
> The best choice would be a revolver because it is nearly maintenance free compared to a semi and almost never fails when being fired; and if it does fail you can simply pull the trigger again and move on the next round. In addition to these good features, a high quality revolver will cost significantly less than it's semi counterpart.
> 
> Finally, a revolver is safer when being carried around. Heck, the things don't even require a safety to be safer than a semi.


All the points you mention are valid, but I simply have no interest in revolvers. For actual home defense, a shotgun would probably be the first thing I'd want to reach for. For carrying a gun around for personal self-defense, well, I live in Maryland, so there's really no need for me to bother considering that. A large part of my interest in semi-automatic pistols is actually a mechanical fascination I have with the way they work. Revolvers don't provoke that same interest in me. It is this same interest, by the way, that's behind my interest in SLR cameras and mechanical watches.



Apatheticviews said:


> /nod.
> 
> The only issue with revolvers is the low caliber size in many cases.


But semi-automatic pistols are rarely, if ever, designed for the largest and most powerful handgun rounds. For example, the .44 Magnum. The reason is that the recoil of these rounds is too much for the mechanics of a semi-auto; they wouldn't last long under the stress. Revolvers, being simpler, can be easily made more durable. One notable exception is the .50 AE, which is even more powerful than the aforementioned round. The gun most associated with that round, the Desert Eagle, is a very large handgun, and I know little about its reliability. But my main point is that while many revolvers are available in smaller chamberings than is typical for semi-automatics, the larger and more powerful chamberings are much more common in revolvers than semi-autos. There's more choice with revolvers.



JustJosh said:


> Most revolvers were carried with 5 rounds opposed to 6 because a good jolt could potentially send the hammer down on a live round even when not cocked.


Yes; in fact, in the Old West, it was common for gun-slingers to keep a rolled-up $5 bill in the empty chamber. That was for the undertaker. :icon_smile_big: (Seriously.)



El_Abogado said:


> A few questions that you should answer first.
> 
> 1. Why do you want to buy a handgun?
> 2. What do you plan on doing with it, once you have it?
> ...


Already way past this point. Thanks though.



> 3. HK - Beautiful pistols. Also expensive. And, since they're German, there are never design flaws, only operator errors. Customer service is horrible and parts and magazines are expensive. Trigger reset (important for gunfighting) is for ****.


I've heard this about H&K's customer service.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

JustJosh said:


> Not so unless you are ONLY considering very modern firearms. Most revolvers were carried with 5 rounds opposed to 6 because a good jolt could potentially send the hammer down on a live round even when not cocked.


Not really ..... I carried fully loaded "modern" revolvers when I started policing in the late 70's. Only the old timers carried them like that. S&W and Colt had already developed internal safeties that did not allow this to happen. I am still here because of it when I dropped my S&W airweight. It fell directly on the hammer which broke off. I simply filed it down and made my own hammerless revolver. It's funny now considering the circumstances... I was off duty in a public restroom :icon_study:


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

dks202 said:


> Not really ..... I carried fully loaded "modern" revolvers when I started policing in the late 70's. Only the old timers carried them like that. S&W and Colt had already developed internal safeties that did not allow this to happen. I am still here because of it when I dropped my S&W airweight. It fell directly on the hammer which broke off. I simply filed it down and made my own hammerless revolver. It's funny now considering the circumstances... I was off duty in a public restroom :icon_study:


Wait a minute...If you dropped it, you must have been holding it...Should I even ask why you were holding a gun in a public restroom? I'm not sure I want to know the answer! :icon_smile_big::icon_smile_wink:


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

This is my idea of a modern revolver:


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

El_Abogado said:


> I regret the day I sold my Miami Classic for the 1911. . . . Buddy of mine used to work for the Company and he carried a Commander in a S.O.B. holster. My recollection is that when he was in, they trained with BHPs in small-of-the-back holsters.
> 
> Something to consider with that holster is what might happen if you find yourself on your back, perhaps put there violently. The S.O.B. holster and pistol may lead to additional injuries in such situations, unlike with the strong-side holster or shoulder holster.


It was a definite consideration, and that's one of the reasons why it's specifically prohibited by the DEA. 4lbs of metal on the spine is a bad deal is their "policy."

But it's all risk management. Hopefully you're not put into a situation where you need the tool in the first place. Then hopefully you don't find yourself prone, and on your back. And incapacitated because of your own weapon. But that's why you have backup weapons, pocket knives, radios, partners, and PLANS to keep you out of those situations in the first place.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Revolvers are also less expensive in general than semi-automatics. Unless it's something like that .500 S&W monster or those absurd Magnum Research BFRs.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Revolvers are also less expensive in general than semi-automatics. Unless it's something like that .500 S&W monster or those absurd Magnum Research BFRs.


I think semi-autos have a consistent price range (say $600-$800), while revolvers have a wider price range ($400-$1500)


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

What revolver costs a grand and half?! :crazy:


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Jovan said:


> What revolver costs a grand and half?! :crazy:


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

For $6500, they'd better at least throw in a rocket launcher.


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

I've got a P99 9mm, put 4-5000 rounds through it over the years, at least (remember when ammo was cheap?). Literally never malfunctioned on me. It's the only plastic service-caliber gun I've got, so I don't have that much experience with the alternatives, but I can definitely recommend it.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

PedanticTurkey said:


> I've got a P99 9mm, put 4-5000 rounds through it over the years, at least (remember when ammo was cheap?). Literally never malfunctioned on me.


With regard to the comparison to the revolver (which I don't think is what you are doing), my comment was that in the hands of the average gun owner vs. gun hobbyists, semi's are much more prone to malfunction than a revolver regardless of brand or quality of the guns.

I remember being on the firing range back when I went through the training program required for a carry permit. There was about a 50/50 mix of semis/revolvers being used by the pupils. Without fail the instructor had to stop the firing every few minutes to clear someone's semi from a jam of some sort. Not once did a revolver issue require the instructor to step in.

I also remember the instructor, a retired police Sgt., spending a good part of the two day course cursing the Glock and praising his Ruger revolver. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## PedanticTurkey (Jan 26, 2008)

An automatic pistol will jam if it's not held properly -- firmly. Women and new shooters often have trouble with them. Like I said, I've never had a malfunction with that Walther, but many other automatics I've owned or shot? Yes, absolutely--I completely agree with you that revolvers are more reliable. I've got a decent collection of older wheel guns myself (well, four or five Smith & Wessons and a Colt .357). I really prefer to shoot the revolvers, also. The P99 has a good trigger, so does my 1911, but neither compares to the single-action pull on an old revolver (obviously...).

Still, if it comes down to it, the P99 is the one I'm going for in an emergency. Assuming I can't get to my AR-15, of course.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> With regard to the comparison to the revolver (which I don't think is what you are doing), my comment was that in the hands of the average gun owner vs. gun hobbyists, semi's are much more prone to malfunction than a revolver regardless of brand or quality of the guns.
> 
> I remember being on the firing range back when I went through the training program required for a carry permit. There was about a 50/50 mix of semis/revolvers being used by the pupils. Without fail the instructor had to stop the firing every few minutes to clear someone's semi from a jam of some sort. Not once did a revolver issue require the instructor to step in.
> 
> ...


I "think" the point was that there is nothing to clear with a revolver.

Something goes wrong, you just pull the trigger again. There is no additional action to take. You just pull the trigger again. Natural instinct.

With a semi, your natural rhythm is broken, and without "drills" you have to think about your next step. You have to rack the slide, clearing the bad round, potentially tapping the magazine to ensure proper seating, check the slide indicator (or do a press check), and then get back on target, AND THEN PULL the trigger.

Pistols & revolvers both have advantages. Both have disadvantages. My primary carry piece is a 4" .45 (ball ammo), while my backup is a DAO .38 revolver (hollow tip). In my house I use a pump action shotgun.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

Apatheticviews said:


> I "think" the point was that there is nothing to clear with a revolver.
> 
> Something goes wrong, you just pull the trigger again. There is no additional action to take. You just pull the trigger again. Natural instinct.


I agree. That's exactly what I said in my first post in this thread. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

After previously viewing this thread, this thought occurred to me:

"Plastic framed handguns are to defensive sidearms what Croc shoes are to men's footwear!"


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Everything mankind needed to know about handguns was discovered in 1911!!
> 
> .45 ACP
> 
> Trad baby!!


That pretty much covers every fact you need to know about handgusn!


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

"Very wise advice, I have a rule-of-thumb never to walk with a caliber larger than 22LR (always on a leg holster), a 9mm can go through 6 people, and you don't want that. "

Who told you this fable about a 9mm with that much penetration. A 9x25 surely can't, although a fine round, and a 9x19 is not a great penetrator at all. If you want penetration get a 7.62x25 but leave the 9mm for target practice.


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

"I don't care much about being "trad" (if I'm trad by accident, that's nice, I have nothing against it, but I don't deliberately aim for it)…But I am considering .45 ACP. It's my second choice behind .40 S&W, or maybe they're roughly even. Unfortunately, the Walther P99 isn't available in that chambering, nor are the Berettas I've mentioned. I believe that of the guns I've mentioned (the ones I'm interested in), only the H&K USP line is available in .45 ACP, which is another reason it's rather high on my list of models I'm interested in."

While a USP is better than a Beretta, it is not really a great carry weapon. I have had a full size framed 45acp for about 5 years and it is just not right in my hand. I would grab my 1911 any day before the USP.


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## camorristi (May 9, 2010)

Country Irish said:


> "Very wise advice, I have a rule-of-thumb never to walk with a caliber larger than 22LR (always on a leg holster), a 9mm can go through 6 people, and you don't want that. "
> 
> Who told you this fable about a 9mm with that much penetration. A 9x25 surely can't, although a fine round, and a 9x19 is not a great penetrator at all. If you want penetration get a 7.62x25 but leave the 9mm for target practice.


I wasn't being accurate. What I was trying to say is, a 22LR is more likely to get lodged in the body rather than penetrating it. When you shoot someone you wouldn't want the person standing behind them, to get injured.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

JLibourel said:


> After previously viewing this thread, this thought occurred to me:
> 
> "Plastic framed handguns are to defensive sidearms what Croc shoes are to men's footwear!"


The FBI, DEA, and USBP/CBP love them. Not to mention several other local law enforcement communities. I'm actually partial to the Springfield XD myself when I can't use the Trad standby of the 1911.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Country Irish said:


> "Very wise advice, I have a rule-of-thumb never to walk with a caliber larger than 22LR (always on a leg holster), a 9mm can go through 6 people, and you don't want that. "
> 
> Who told you this fable about a 9mm with that much penetration. A 9x25 surely can't, although a fine round, and a 9x19 is not a great penetrator at all. If you want penetration get a 7.62x25 but leave the 9mm for target practice.


 "... delivery like a brick through a plate glass window."


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

JLibourel said:


> After previously viewing this thread, this thought occurred to me:
> 
> "Plastic framed handguns are to defensive sidearms what Croc shoes are to men's footwear!"


Uh, no. But gunwriters are to gunfighting what Walter Mitty is to action. . . . .


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Hi gang

The Beretta M9 whcich climbed an uphill battle to overcome the old 45 cal. The US had to abide kind of with the Nato round. Actually it is a remarkable handgun and is doing very well. Not a lot of failures. They had problems in the early years because Uncle Sam got cheaper magazines.
Again, Beretta has a newer version I believe out this year.
I am retired army medical officer. I have not enjoyed the Walter in my shootin experiences. I prefer Sig Sauer their 1911 that is out now for the 45 looks very nice.I have a Sig 40 cal and that has enough stopping power. If you shoot, and are very good.
My stay at home for my protection is the little Para Warthog, in 45 cal.
There was a recent article in a gun magazine.
About what one would need for protection. It boils down to having a very cheaper double barrel shotgun . It was interesting. There was information about a man robbed by hoods. And he learned and used his shotgun. And at 20-50 he was on target.
Anyway, long story short it is about preference. 
There are custom jobs going 4-5 grand by Kimber. I like their guns, but too pretty for me.
One of their guns is designed over the Aegis group, an old security British firm and one from the shooters with California Swat. 2 interesting handguns, new for Kimber
Anwya guys, my preference than the Walter is the Beretta 9mm.
If you shoot, then this is a nice cheap gun.
Runs about 500-700
The sigs are about 1-12 bucks and Para will run about a grand

Nice day
Jimmy


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

Country Irish said:


> "Very wise advice, I have a rule-of-thumb never to walk with a caliber larger than 22LR (always on a leg holster), a 9mm can go through 6 people, and you don't want that. "
> 
> Who told you this fable about a 9mm with that much penetration. A 9x25 surely can't, although a fine round, and a 9x19 is not a great penetrator at all. If you want penetration get a 7.62x25 but leave the 9mm for target practice.


Keep in mind that a good portion of the human chest is made up of air. Yes, it's unlikely that a 9mm of any calibre is going to penetrate a second body if going through the chest cavity... however, a glancing shot off an arm or a leg is another story entirely. It's all about kinetic energy transfer. It takes significantly more "depth" to transfer the amount of energy a 9mm than it does from a .22LR or even a .45acp. At certain points of the human body the amount of "depth" it requires is less than the "depth" available (or is made up of non-transferable matter).


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*9MM*

My friend

I disagree that the 9MM is one to count on for stopping power. It was a concern for the militay, most police departments and most stae troopers.This happens to be a big concernMost companies have switched their 40 cal for the 45..
Evidenced by California SWAT going to the 1911 45 recently with a Kimber, and Aegis and many other departments outfits
This round has been talked about since its introduction.
If you are a person who shoots. A different story. I shoot and prefer the 1911 45.
Actually this weapon style is becomming in big favor again. Evidenced by the recent makings by many comppanies.
Glock came out with the 10mm, to make an advance on the 40 cal. The size preferance is inching back to the 45 cal.
As I said there are many nice weapons that are being made that I recommend, to a shooter.

My recommendation to the gentleman was the Beretta 9MM.
Or a 12ga shotgun, inexpensive
My advice,shoot this gun quite a bit. Like it is part of your life. And you will respond accordingly to this weapon
I feel a bigger cal may be too much.
I happen to prefer the 45 started this 30 plus years ago. And am comfortable with this cal, its stopping power etc.

Nice day gents


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

DukeGrad said:


> My friend
> 
> I disagree that the 9MM is one to count on for stopping power. It was a concern for the militay, most police departments and most stae troopers.This happens to be a big concernMost companies have switched their 40 cal for the 45..
> Evidenced by California SWAT going to the 1911 45 recently with a Kimber, and Aegis and many other departments outfits
> ...


I don't recall anyone here advocating that "9MM is one to count on for stopping power" so I'm not sure who you're disagreeing with.

I'm also not sure what you're referring to when you say, "Glock came out with the 10mm, to make an advance on the 40 cal." The 10mm Auto round was developed first (released in 1983), and not by Glock, either. This round was felt to have too much recoil and muzzle flash. The .40 S&W round (a shortened version of 10mm Auto) was developed later in the decade (released in 1990) to address the problems of the 10mm Auto. So 10mm Auto was first, and .40 S&W came later to solve its problems. The only noteworthy way in which Glock can be brought in to the discussion of the development of either round is to note that Glock was able to beat Smith & Wesson to market with a .40 S&W pistol, which they were able to do by adapting an existing 10mm Auto design to the shorter .40 S&W round.

Finally, I'm not entirely clear on why you wind up recommending a Beretta 9mm. At other points in your two recent posts, you either discuss the relative lack of stoping power of the 9mm round, or you discuss your preference for .45 ACP pistols. The M9 is, as you pointed out earlier, a great pistol, but I don't feel that's reason enough to recommend it in light of the shortcomings of the round it uses. I am much more interested in the 96 model, which is the .40 S&W version of the 92 (on which the M9 is based).


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes, his post did strike me as a bit contradictory.

Old news, I know, but I agree it's a shame they no longer carry the 96FS. For what it's worth though, you may be able to find them pre-owned.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Oh, I didn't even noticed they stopped the 96FS. I thought it was just the 96 Inox they stopped. I guess the 96FS was replaced by the 96A1, which just judging by a quick glance at the photo, looks pretty much the same except for an accessory rail on the bottom of the frame in front of the trigger guard. Also the trigger guard is now lacking the classic peak that the 92FS had (and still does). At least the 96A1 (there's a similar 92A1 now, too) is still pretty much the same, unlike the newer 90-TWO, which has the same basic profile but a very techie look. https://www.berettausa.com/shop-by-department/firearms/handguns/full-size/

I would like to get a military-issue M9, but that would be more for a collection piece than anything else.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

The military uses the 9mm by congressional mandate. Compliancy to a NATO standard, and enhanced magazine capacity are the two main reasons. It can be much debated whether it is a right choice or not, much like whether the 5.56 is better than the 7.62.

As any gun enthusiast will state, when it comes to stopping power bigger is better. Bigger with more powder behind it is even better.

However.... When it is assumed that the vast majority of your shots will be misses, more rounds does have its advantages. Hence 9mm & 5.56. There is also the cost benefits associated with smaller "machines." A good AR10 (7.62) is nearly double the cost of a comparable AR15 (5.56).

When you get into bullet cost... These can quickly skyrocket to real $$, as every base has hundreds of thousands of rounds per year of rotating stock.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Apatheticviews said:


> The military uses the 9mm by congressional mandate. Compliancy to a NATO standard, and enhanced magazine capacity are the two main reasons. It can be much debated whether it is a right choice or not, much like whether the 5.56 is better than the 7.62.


But specialty units do get some leeway to choose their own weapons. The SOCOM sidearm is the Mk23, a military version of the H&K USP-45, from what I understand.

I've never been in combat (or in the military at all), but how often do those who carry sidearms actually use them, anyway? And if they're not used that often, doesn't that seem to imply that they're more like holdout or backup weapons, in which case, wouldn't it make sense for them to have as much stopping power as possible?


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

JJR512 said:


> Wait a minute...If you dropped it, you must have been holding it...Should I even ask why you were holding a gun in a public restroom? I'm not sure I want to know the answer! :icon_smile_big::icon_smile_wink:


You won't believeeee this one.... I didn't use a holster, just stuck it in my britches. I had a "police emergency" and I forgot it was there when I tried to sit down in a hurry. As soon as the pants came undone......


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> But specialty units do get some leeway to choose their own weapons. The SOCOM sidearm is the Mk23, a military version of the H&K USP-45, from what I understand.
> 
> I've never been in combat (or in the military at all), but how often do those who carry sidearms actually use them, anyway? And if they're not used that often, doesn't that seem to imply that they're more like holdout or backup weapons, in which case, wouldn't it make sense for them to have as much stopping power as possible?


The Mk 23 is actually quite a bit different from the USP 45 (same base design with lots of little changes that make it a lot different), and is just one of the weapons of choice in the Spec Ops community . However, almost all of them prefer the 45 as their primary choice because of its stopping power. The 9mm AND 5.56 are the proverbial elephants in the room which everyone is talking about but which is too expensive too change at this point.

As a verteren Marine, who was in two major command structures, I experienced both sides of weapons. When I was in the Fleet Marine Force (FMF), I used my sidearm constantly (mainly in training) and became very proficient with it. When I moved to DC, and left the Fleet... I would only see my weapon once a year when required to qualify with it (as an expert marksman, that was less than 200~ rounds including zeroing). Within the Marine Corps, where every "Grunt" has about 20~ support Marines, the vast majority of Marines will never use their weapons in hostility at all, so cost effectiveness is a huge consideration. When you start talking about the Army, whose support structure is easily 3-4 times that of the Marine Corps..... I doubt every soldier even has a rifle assigned to them, and I'm 90% positive the Air Force & Navy don't until the troop is actually in theatre.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

JJR512 said:


> But specialty units do get some leeway to choose their own weapons. The SOCOM sidearm is the Mk23, a military version of the H&K USP-45, from what I understand.
> 
> I've never been in combat (or in the military at all), but how often do those who carry sidearms actually use them, anyway? And if they're not used that often, doesn't that seem to imply that they're more like holdout or backup weapons, in which case, wouldn't it make sense for them to have as much stopping power as possible?


Mk23, America's first crew-served handgun. . . . The pistol is not ideal. Also, most SOF units do not have the luxury to choose the weapons they want to use. Some SMUs, on the other hand, do.

Stopping power? It's about hitting skill first. You can kill with a .22, but if you can't hit the target a .45 ain't going to help.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

The Beretta 9MM has a great article in this months Guns Magazine. I recommend it not for stopping power. The gun is not a bad choice for reliability. And it has withstood a great deal since taken in by the military.
For a novice shooter, someone who does not need this small round in their work. Not a bad choiceIf you are a shooter. If you are a shooter. The 9MM is great gun. Especially when you can mag 12-15 rounds. As compared to the 45. Most guns at 45 are 7-8 rounds. Although Para warthog shows their big warthos with 12 rounds and I think 15!
Para or sig does a 9MM that the seals, and other operators who can shoot the 9MM. And get 15 hits out of the gun. These are expert shooters.
The majority of people in the business are disappointed in the 9MM, the 40cal.
And there will be a sway to the 1911 style, 45 cal guns.
Havenice day my friends

I am a fan of the old 1911. And at 45 cal.
I shoot 1-2 guns and am very comfortable with just 7-8 rounds.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

45ACP

There is a problem with choice of barrell size and it seems that a lot of people want a barrel at around 3 inches. This does not to favor the 45. It seems 5 in barrel is the best with this type ound.
Again,just a reason why it has been an issue to make a 45cal gun, with 20 rounds in the mag, and 3 1/2 incebarrell.
So if he decides the 45. I recommend the 45 in the 1911, 5 inch barrell.
And dont buy any other guns. Shoot just this one gun. And he will do fine.


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Want to clarify my Beretta recommendation. Beretta beat out some high guns, including sig, colt and others
It has done better than the 1911 in faults, gunn errors and has withstood the abuse of a soldiers life.
It still reaks praise. Read the new article out

I recommend on what the population recommends.
On the other hand, am not a beretta user.
My preference is different

Nice day


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

DukeGrad said:


> 45ACP
> 
> There is a problem with choice of barrell size and it seems that a lot of people want a barrel at around 3 inches. This does not to favor the 45. It seems 5 in barrel is the best with this type ound.
> Again,just a reason why it has been an issue to make a 45cal gun, with 20 rounds in the mag, and 3 1/2 incebarrell.
> ...


Like any machine, you start running into mechanical issues when you start adjusting the pieces.

The length of the round combined with the pressure exerted to deliver the bullet itself down the chamber requires a minimum length. The 3" barrel will "work" but it is so far from optimal it's not even funny (I don't want to say prone to jamming, but hard to rack is accurate). The 5" Barrel works well, but isn't "required" either from a strictly functional standpoint. It has been my experience, both personal and anecdotal from my time as an arms dealer, that barrels below 4.25~" is where you really start seeing "issues" for the 45acp.

Magazine capacity is a secondary issue, which is ergonomic in nature. Most people just don't have the hand size to support a double stack 45. Keep in mind half the populace is women, and a solid portion of the male populace is not "large" framed. So a single stacked 45acp has an appropriate grip size, but a double stack does not. When you get into smaller rounds like the 40s&w or 9mm, you do not encounter the same issue, since they actually add material to the magazine well in many cases to make up the deficit in the single stack models.

It comes back to tradeoffs. More bullets with less stopping power or less bullets with more stopping power. The US government decided on NATO standard which meant "more bullet."


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

The Beretta again

Also, again it is not my gun of choice but research has use in military has found the beretta M9 to be one of the most accurate handguns out there.
With the installation of the BaroSto barrell shot groups were brought to 1-2 inch groups at25meters from from 3-4.
Simply put, this is a very, vary accurate gun

Again, I recommend a 45 cal

Nice day


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

This was the sidearm in my service days. The good old reliable FN (Fabrique Nationale) Browning HP 9mm. Fewer parts than the Colt 45, which made stripping & reassembly quicker and easier. Plus the same rounds were used in this as in the Sterling SMG, which was our standard SMG back then. Before it was replaced with the SA80 series mid-80s.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> This was the sidearm in my service days. The good old reliable FN (Fabrique Nationale) Browning HP 9mm. Fewer parts than the Colt 45, which made stripping & reassembly quicker and easier. Plus the same rounds were used in this as in the Sterling SMG, which was our standard SMG back then. Before it was replaced with the SA80 series mid-80s.


The same for me except the SLR was my PW.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> The same for me except the SLR was my PW.


Note I said, "_The_ sidearm in my service days" not my PW. My PW was also the SLR. As an RAF Regiment Gunner on a GDT (Groud Defence Training) Flight at an operational recon (JARIC) station I taught the weapon to RAF aircrew officers, firing, stripping, cleaning and correcting blockages on the range. The only RAF personnel who carried it as a sidearm as a matter of course were RAF Police and aircrew.

Douglas you must have left your mob no later than the late 80s then. As the SA80 replaced the SLR in 87. As early as early 82 my squadron (2 Field Sqn Airborne) was one of the handful of units that got prototypes to put through trials. I never got to fire one though. I left the RAF after the Falklands War after my squadron was stood down.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

El_Abogado said:


> Mk23, America's first crew-served handgun. . . . The pistol is not ideal. Also, most SOF units do not have the luxury to choose the weapons they want to use. Some SMUs, on the other hand, do.
> 
> Stopping power? It's about hitting skill first. You can kill with a .22, but if you can't hit the target a .45 ain't going to help.


I didn't mean individual units. I meant the entire special force of a particular military. For example, the US Army's Special Forces (the "Green Berets") use the Mk.23. This probably isn't the only example of a special group within a larger military using a hand-picked weapon that is not standard issue for the rest of the military. That's all I meant.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

El_Abogado said:


> Uh, no. But gunwriters are to gunfighting what Walter Mitty is to action. . . . .


In marked contrast to the iGentry, who, it is well known, are overwhelmingly comprised of steel-tough, battle-hardened killer elite types--a fact frequently noted over on the Advanced Forum!


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

JLibourel said:


> In marked contrast to the iGentry, who, it is well known, are overwhelmingly comprised of steel-tough, battle-hardened killer elite types--a fact frequently noted over on the Advanced Forum!


What is the "iGentry" and what is the "Advanced Forum"?


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

JJR512 said:


> I didn't mean individual units. I meant the entire special force of a particular military. For example, the US Army's Special Forces (the "Green Berets") use the Mk.23. This probably isn't the only example of a special group within a larger military using a hand-picked weapon that is not standard issue for the rest of the military. That's all I meant.


Don't forget its appearance in "Tears of the Sun" with a NavSpecWar unit too. . . . Understood on what you meant. Only wanted to provide some additional information.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

JJR512 said:


> What is the "iGentry" and what is the "Advanced Forum"?


I assume he's referring to keyboard commandos and a forum focused on weapons, gear tactics, etc. (e.g., arf.com, lf.net, 10-8). And it's "stone-cold", not "steel-tough". . .


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

El_Abogado said:


> I assume he's referring to keyboard commandos and a forum focused on weapons, gear tactics, etc. (e.g., arf.com, lf.net, 10-8). And it's "stone-cold", not "steel-tough". . .


Why can't it be both!?!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

DukeGrad said:


> The Beretta again
> 
> Also, again it is not my gun of choice but research has use in military has found the beretta M9 to be one of the most accurate handguns out there.
> With the installation of the BaroSto barrell shot groups were brought to 1-2 inch groups at25meters from from 3-4.
> ...


The M9 is accurate because it's a 5" 9mm. Muzzle velocity & stability are directly related to barrel length & round type. In all honesty, 95% of 5" 9mm models will perform "about" the same in regards to accuracy. Sure there are some ergonomic & mechanical features that will affect accuracy, but we're talking a mass produced piece of machinery vice one-off custom jobs.

If you take the 1911 .45acp 5" vs any other .45acp 5" you will see similar results in regards to accuracy. Most of them being "about" the same.

I'm trying not to knock the M9, because it is a good economic weapon for its designed purpose. I personally hate the thing though. It's too big for my hand, and just plain awkward, but that's an ergonomic issue vice a functional issue. I'm not a huge fan of 9mm (pistol) in general, as stated for various reasons previously. Those two issues result in a weapon I just don't care for. Sure I'm proficient with it, but that doesn't mean I like using it over other more comfortable weapons with "better" round types.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Note I said, "_The_ sidearm in my service days" not my PW. My PW was also the SLR. As an RAF Regiment Gunner on a GDT (Groud Defence Training) Flight at an operational recon (JARIC) station I taught the weapon to RAF aircrew officers, firing, stripping, cleaning and correcting blockages on the range. The only RAF personnel who carried it as a sidearm as a matter of course were RAF Police and aircrew.
> 
> Douglas you must have left your mob no later than the late 80s then. As the SA80 replaced the SLR in 87. As early as early 82 my squadron (2 Field Sqn Airborne) was one of the handful of units that got prototypes to put through trials. I never got to fire one though. I left the RAF after the Falklands War after my squadron was stood down.


I got the SA80 in 1990 (Signals get stuff like that late), I left in 91 but apart from qualifying shoots I never touched an SA80, in mufti it was the browning and in green I lugged the LMG or the Remington police pump (on the very odd occasion). (I spent 1989 to 91 in the Province). 
 I was undergoing RAF regiment reserve selection late last year when my gall bladder decided I was too old at 47 to be doing that and I ended up having it out. I am still considering trying again when I return to full fitness.


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

"...military has found the beretta M9 to be one of the most accurate handguns out there."

This is the same bunch that found the M16 to be reliable also. The research is rigged and the selection process is corrupt. The Beretta is an OK plinker but it takes significant machine work to make it any more than average accuracy.


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

After thinking about this for a while I think the best advice is to go to a range that will rent handguns and simply try several and see which one is right for you. It is nice to start with a brand or design you think you will like but the reason there are so many designs is that each person is different and the right design and the right round for you might be different that what is typically considered "best". The Walther is a good weapon but if you assess its reputation and all of the advice you will ever hear, it will be meaningless until you test the alternatives and find what works for YOU.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Douglas Brisbane Gray said:


> I am still considering trying again when I return to full fitness.


Good luck with that. I assume you'll be going for 603 (City of Edinburgh) Aux. Regt Squadron then.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes they have a det in Glasgow. Thanks for the encouragement. I can pass all the tests just need to get my BMI down a bit more.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

JJR512 said:


> What is the "iGentry" and what is the "Advanced Forum"?


iGentry=shorthand for "Internet Gentlemen," i.e., most denizens of the clothing fora

Advanced Forum=FNB


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

JLibourel said:


> In marked contrast to the iGentry, who, it is well known, are overwhelmingly comprised of steel-tough, battle-hardened killer elite types--a fact frequently noted over on the Advanced Forum!


Caught your farewell column; Thanks from a reader.


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## JohnRov (Sep 3, 2008)

Country Irish said:


> After thinking about this for a while I think the best advice is to go to a range that will rent handguns and simply try several and see which one is right for you. It is nice to start with a brand or design you think you will like but the reason there are so many designs is that each person is different and the right design and the right round for you might be different that what is typically considered "best". The Walther is a good weapon but if you assess its reputation and all of the advice you will ever hear, it will be meaningless until you test the alternatives and find what works for YOU.


Best advice so far.


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