# Kiton, the truth about handwork



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

It is a hot sunny summer day in Naples, and as I ride from the heart of the old city to an industrial park where the Kiton factory is located, the driver weaves in and out of heavy traffic in classic Neapolitan style, smooth but yet bold and all or nothing!

The conversation flows along much the same path, as we dodge scooters and street cars, company president Antonio De Matteis is soft spoken and understated. Marcello Vero, the Bergdorf Goodman representative seated next to me, is direct, firm and outspoken in his views of who the "Kiton Man" is and where the future lies. Clearly the common ground between the two men is their love for what some say, is the finest Ready to Wear men's wear in the world.

Who is the "Kiton man"?

Most men know nothing of this company, there are no over stylized double page ads featured in the likes of GQ or Esquire. Brioni has the power man image driven home by the likes of Donald Trump, Kofi Annan and former James Bond actor, Pierce Brosnan (who is the new face behind the raced up Aquascutum ad campaign).

When asked who are the "Kiton Power men"?, Marcello Vero speaks of private jets and image builders. De Matteis asks to go off the record as he lists a few names that would make any major Italian fashion house drool. Kiton will not run these high profile names up the flag pole, rather than let a celebrity A lists speak to who wears Kiton, De Matteis lets the workmanship alone speak and moves the conversation along to details in his jacket.

De Matteis says most of his customers are more likely to say, "it is just something I had my tailor make up". The level of modesty found throughout the Kiton team is unparalleled. He slips his bespoke jacket over my back to try on, it is beautiful, soft shoulders, light weight and gorgeous fabric, it feels more like a shirt than a jacket.

Entering the suit production area, what stands out first and foremost is the lack of sewing machines. There is one small row with a few machines in the entire shop. These machines are restricted to sew long straight seams in the jackets. Every other stitch in the fabric is done by hand. Everything!

The entire shop is well organized and clean, there are no loose cuttings on the floor or piles of fabric cluttering up the ends of tables. Tables are laid out with a team that encircles each table and performs one element at each stop. Button holes, pick sticking, collars and so on until each suit is completed after about 24 manhours of handwork.

As we move from table to table, stopping at a team sewing button holes, the group laughs and jokes about my "interest" in a simple button hole. They seemed to think it both silly and understandable at the same time. The subtle detail of a beautifully sewn keyhole shaped button hole is no easy task, and these are masters.

Each step would be much the same, a group of people working by hand doing which ever section of the jacket they have been charged with. Some of the tailors in shirt and tie, others, not. But as I spoke with each one, another would speak up and tell me that I must see this step, or shoot a frame of so and so doing collars and so it went.

Each tailor took pride in each piece of fabric whether their work or the work of others. The pain staking work taken to match the patterns of the cloth perfectly. Given the high cost of the fabrics used by Kiton, this step drives up fabric consumption by about 10 to 15 percent but produces a perfectly flowing jacket.

The hand pick stitching, the hand sewn buttons, the folding of the ties, all done to make it look so easy, but no short cuts are taken.

One of the more remarkable steps was of course, the shoulders, the famous Neapolitan shoulder is one of the key elements that has made Kiton stand out.
Tailors slowly attach a shoulder, basting and then build it up to achieve the fluting or rainfall effect (the desirable effect of crease like folds of fabric at the very top of the sleeve). Constantly checking to see how it would hang, feeling the sleeve head for a soft supple edge.

I imagined the sleeve being placed, basted and sewn in a relatively straightforward way with production in mind. But the level of care given, the number of times each tailor stopped and held the jacket up, shook it about and then eyed the manner in which the sleeve hung was remarkable. This was clearly a step where time did not matter, it had to be perfect every time. Yet the tailors of Kiton admit no two jackets will be exactly the same as a result of approach.

This group is not treated as, or considers themselves as, factory or production workers and it is clear in the way they work and interact with each other as well as management. Each tailor is considered as a partner and an artist. Enjoying lunch together in a nice cafeteria, with lunch finished off as it should be in Italy, with a great short espresso.

As we return to the shop floor, the view from a small window of the second floor offices out to the production floor drives home the degree of scale at play. Kiton is one of the most respected names in fine men's wear. Yet the floor is home to only 250 tailors, who produce about 18,000 suits and sports jackets per year. About one suit per week per tailor! This type of production places Kiton at about 1/4th the scale of Brioni who is said to produce 65,000 units per year, and dwarfed by the production runs of houses such as Canali and Zegna.

One of the key elements to Kiton's success is found in the fabric room. Kiton has taken a unique approach to secure the world's finest fabrics. Never waiting to see what the fabric mills will have to offer, Kiton travels the world meeting everyone from the sheep herders that raise the finest of wools to the very finest spinners. Buying out entire production runs, securing rights for years to come and in one case, buying shares in the actual sheep, Kiton can rightfully boast to having some the very best fabrics available to man kind.

Once a batch of wool is harvested, designated a great crop, patterns and styles decided upon the mills weave their wool to the highest levels and in limited runs producing only enough cloth to make only 17 suits or 27 sport jackets in a particular design. It is a fairly safe bet that you will never be seated across from another man wearing exactly the same suit or sports jacket.

Standing in the shirt and tie shop, sipping a short espresso with shop foreman Sebastiano Borrelli , he glances up and asks "Borrelli? Or Finamore?". His interest is not just a polite inquiry, Mr. Borrelli is part of a Naples family famous for their shirts (with a growing presence in North America for suits, jackets and ties) and cut his teeth in the Borrelli shop, but now makes shirts for Kiton.

I am wearing a beautiful Borrelli linen shirt and the people at Kiton know the shirt is not their hand work. I reply Borrelli and he gestures a toast with his espresso cup and compliments my choice. Everyone at Kiton shares a modesty, but fierce pride, with not a harsh word spoken for any competitor. The philosophy seems to be "this is what we make, we hope you love it as much as we do".

In a separate building on the grounds is the home of a small tailoring school. Two rooms with a small group of young tailors will work for two years with the best of the group will slowly be integrated into the shop. These student tailors were charged with making a suit for themselves at the time of my visit. I wondered if it would not be better to judge on a suit made for a fellow student in place of a 'self portrait" suit. Clearly the master tailor in charge of the school felt otherwise and with a wide smile a quick wave, says good bye and turns back to the class fixing his glasses to inspect the basting stitches.

I walked away from Kiton knowing that everything they had said about their product is true, which is an odd feeling, because they never said more than needed.

I met with Mr. De Matteis on two occasions in 2006.
In April in Montreal and in July in Naples.

Button Holes:

https://imageshack.us

Pick Stitching:

https://imageshack.us

https://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pick9973xpt4.jpg

Sewing of the shoulders:

https://imageshack.us

https://imageshack.us

Matching Patterns:

https://imageshack.us

Sewing a pocket detail:

https://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pocket0088xah3.jpg

Hand Pressing a suit jacket:

https://imageshack.us

Shoes:

The annual run of Kiton hand made shoes is limited to 2500 pair.

https://imageshack.us

https://imageshack.us

Shirt patterns:

Each shirt is cut to carefully match the patterns.

https://imageshack.us


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## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

Great report! Thank you very much.

Maybe someone can do the same kind of report on Oxxford.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Nice job. I several Kiton suits and have met many of their artisans at trunk shows and collaboratives so I am not the least bit surprised. When you talk to the people who make the goods you can really hear the passion in their voice.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

What wonderful pictures! Do you have any more you could share?

This type of report is why I love AA. Thanks, Zegnamtl.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

Zegnamtl, just superb! Thanks for going to the effort of first taking the pictures and observing so carefully and second sharing it all with us. This really is the kind of thing that makes this forum so valuable. Well done, sir!


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Presumably the pictures are of a MTM line as the buttonholes in the sleeves wouldn't go in an OTR suit, correct?

Perry


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

Excellent post Zegnamtl - thanks for sharing. What interesting visit and trip it must have been. 

Best,

EL


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

*Bravo!*

Thanks for the fine effort, Zegnamtl. But don't you be holding out on us, we know you've got more pics.:icon_smile_wink:


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## onthelistbaby (Nov 15, 2004)

what a great report! thanks.

qestion: when doing button holes, do they cut the fabric first then sew, or do they sew first? It looks as if he's sewing before cutting, but I can't say for sure.


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## Yellman (Aug 25, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to visit the Kiton plant in Naples. I thought I would post a brief report from my visit.
> 
> I want more


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

Excellent report, and just another of many examples why this forum is part classroom, part fitting room and part coffee shop: each post contributes in some way to a meaningful appreciation of the arts of tailoring, marketing, dressing well and style. Kudos for such a quality report. Looking forward to your next one (Oxxford, Borrelli, Gaziano-Girling?)


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Bravo, Zegnamtl!


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## Mr. Golem (Mar 18, 2006)

This confirmating of quality really put Kiton high on my list even at the high expense. It's great to see that their people love what they do and not just doing it for the pay(maybe that's a part of it of course). Thanks for the excellent report and requesting more pictures of the shoe production.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

In Chicago my daughter's class takes a field trip to the Art Institute. If we lived in Naples I'm sure her class would take a field trip to Kiton. This craftsmanship should be appreciated in the same way.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Great post, Zegnamtl. Would love to see more pictures!!

Scott


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Thank you for all your kind words.
It was a very interesting day.
My daughters and I spend the entire day there,
but with the girls in tow, it was not as easy as I hoped to go into the finer details as I would have liked.

Kitonbrioni:

I am working on something for Oxxford, I will let you know if it flies.
This is a small cut out of a spread that will run during fashion week.

pkincy, onthelistbaby:

The button holes are sewn by the same team regardless if it is MTM or RTW. Some were doing surgeon's cuffs, other not. They mark the hole, start the stitch, cut and then finish the work.

Chris:

If your daughter's class wanted the field trip, it might turn into a recruiting trip. Kiton has a tailoring school on the grounds. It is a two year course and then only the best of the class get a chance to tryout on the shop floor.
Pure speculation on my behalf, but I would guess even those who do not make the cut and get a job can certainly find work elsewhere in the trade after such training. I did visit the school but only took a snap shot of my girls in the classroom which I will not post here.


I will post a few more images, but as it is part of a newspaper spread that will run this fall, I can't post everything yet, sorry guys!


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

zegnamtl
Thanks for the info. Was not aware of their training program. I think this adds some value to their clothes. Buy a suit, preserve the craft. If only I was younger, that training program is very alluring. Like going to graduate school.

If you make it to Chicago, stop by. I'll make you a cup of coffee.


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## jstevej (Feb 7, 2005)

Zegnamtl-

Did you happen to notice that the collars are all machine stitched, as are the chest pieces and lapels? Also, much of the basting is done by machine, not that this is a problem.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

Was the school in session while you were there? I am curious of the ages of the apprentices.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Did you happen to notice that the collars are all machine stitched, as are the chest pieces and lapels? Also, much of the basting is done by machine, not that this is a problem.


I'm not sure this is entirely correct. I understand there to be a tremendous amount of handwork on the Kiton shirt collar.


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## jstevej (Feb 7, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I'm not sure this is entirely correct. I understand there to be a tremendous amount of handwork on the Kiton shirt collar.


I meant that the jacket collars are all machine padded as are all of the jacket fronts. The collars are hand set, but not really handmade.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

jstevenj wrote:
Did you happen to notice that the collars are all machine stitched, as are the chest pieces and lapels? Also, much of the basting is done by machine, not that this is a problem
~~~~~

Referring to the suit shop:

I beg to differ.
I saw people hand basting,
hand sewing the collars and so on.
I did not make a note of how many machines there were, perhaps 3.
The lapels, the pocket flaps, the collars were all hand sewn. 

See the above added image.

The only machine sewing I saw was the long seam down the jacket.
Nothing else!


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Chris,

Yes school was in session, I would hazard a guess in the early twenties.


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## jstevej (Feb 7, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> jstevenj wrote:
> Did you happen to notice that the collars are all machine stitched, as are the chest pieces and lapels? Also, much of the basting is done by machine, not that this is a problem
> ~~~~~
> 
> ...


Maybe you went to a different Kiton factory than I did. I have not been there in a few years, so maybe everything is different now, but...

There are stacks of pre-made collars with the felt and canvas stitched by machine. The setting of the collar is done by hand, but not the shaping and padding.

The canvasses are absolutly machine padded. You can tell that no only by watching the machines pounding away at them, but by inspecting the finished product. There isn't much debate about it.

A bit of the basting on the lapels is done by machine, but you are correct in saying that much of it is done by hand. A lot (most) of the sewing is by hand, but not as much as you say. Unless, that is, if they have changed everything recently, but...


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

jstevenj,

This was my first visit to Kiton, I have only a rough idea of what has gone on in the past based on what people have told me.

There was a time when local tailors were used and they worked from their own shop or home. This is no longer the case.

I have no idea when they stopped this practice, but it is all " in house" work now and the collars I witnessed where are all hand sewn.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I made my comments based on knowledge imparted from Massimo. He's always been truthful with me.


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## jstevej (Feb 7, 2005)

The collar picture that you put up shows several rows of almost cursive looking stitches. As a point of fact, those are the machine stitches that I was talking about. Hand made ones look like chevrons. The same goes for the padding stitches in the chest and lapels. Many people think that the qualitative differences are nil. I have no idea. I think that Kiton makes a fine, fine garment, I am just picking nits.


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## T4phage (Nov 12, 2003)

jstevej said:


> The collar picture that you put up shows several rows of almost cursive looking stitches. As a point of fact, those are the machine stitches that I was talking about. Hand made ones look like chevrons. The same goes for the padding stitches in the chest and lapels. Many people think that the qualitative differences are nil. I have no idea. I think that Kiton makes a fine, fine garment, I am just picking nits.


jstevej is correct. The collar and canvas on the Kiton photos are machine MADE, but HAND attached..

Here is a picture of a hand made canvas:
https://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=174854editedpx5.jpg


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

jstevenj,

Perhaps communication breakdown is at play here.
Please forgive the misunderstanding.

I am referring to the collar being hand sewn together and then hand sewn to the suit jacket.

I believe you are referring to the stitching in the actual canvas inside the collar, which I did not take the time to visit. I assume it is a machine stitched canvass, but from there, its assembly into the jacket and all the finishing is hand sewn.

I am posting from a palm via wifi at the moment and can not add additional pictures at this time.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

T4,

Thank you for posting the image,

it was only in the final jstevenj post and your picture I realized he was referring to the canvas peice inside the collar.


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## mrchapel (Jun 21, 2006)

Thank you for this wonderful report. Looking forward to any future ones you post!


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## ragdoll (Feb 9, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> I will post a few more images, but as it is part of a newspaper spread that will run this fall, I can't post everything yet, sorry guys!


Zegnamtl

Great post. I hope that you will let us know when your newspaper article is out. I am sure the forum will be eager to see it.


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## jstevej (Feb 7, 2005)

When I visited, the most impressive thing in the factory was the room full of the most beautiful fabrics that I have ever seen. I was absolutly amazed at the amount of stunning cloths that were on site. To me, the fabrics, and not the construction are the magic of Kiton. The construction is very good indeed (certainly as good if not better than the competitors), but the coth selection and quality are absolutly a world apart.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

A very informative thread. Most appreciated.

Just as a point of reference, how does the level of handwork displayed by Kiton compare with other Italian makes like Canali, Corneliani, Brioni, Zegna, and Isaia? And for that matter, how would Oxxford compare?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> To me, the fabrics, and not the construction are the magic of Kiton. The construction is very good indeed (certainly as good if not better than the competitors), but the coth selection and quality are absolutly a world apart.


It's a bit of both. Fabrics are gorgeous and often exclusives. I think construction is unique in the amount of handwork, even with some limited machine work.


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## jstevej (Feb 7, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> It's a bit of both. Fabrics are gorgeous and often exclusives. I think construction is unique in the amount of handwork, even with some limited machine work.


No, it is really mostly just the fabrics. There are many places in Naples (not big factorys) that make a more handmade suit for less money. The fabrics are really special.

As compare to the brands above, more than the other Italian listed (much more than), a bit less than Oxxford.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> There are many places in Naples (not big factorys) that make a more handmade suit for less money.


I don't mean to imply that Kiton is the only out there with this much handcraftmanship, but that the number offering such is few.

I have several Oxxfords as well but the construction has both strengths and weaknesses versus Kiton. Some observations:

1. Buttonholes on the Kiton are finer with closer stitching. Perhaps the more substantial thread Oxxford uses will prove more durable but the Kiton is more artistic and softer.

2. The quarter lined Oxxford jacket is really special. Kiton does this as well but for more money.

3. The Oxxford besom pocket is quite nice. A nice feature.

4. Kiton cloth almost always beats Oxxford although I respect their search of English mills for classic cloths from old swatchbooks. Kiton somewhat similar in updating old classics.

5. Kiton suits are softer around the should whereas Oxxford is a bit bulkier but both are nice.

6. As discussed in another thread, their waistband design is something else.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Wow!!!!! It seems like there is just as much handwork in the following clothing from Kiton as there is in the following clothing from Oxxford: suits and suit seperates, tuxedos and tuxedo seperates, sports jackets or odd jackets, dress pants, overcoats, odd vests, dinner jackets (basically formal sports jackets or odd jackets), dinner pants (basically formal dress pants), dinner overcoats (basically formal overcoats) and dinner vests (basically formal odd vests). I am looking forward to the same report from you for Oxxford as soon as you have the opportunity visit the Oxxford factory in Chicago, Illinois, zegnamtl. BTW, can you please also provide a similar report for Brioni if you ever have the opportunity to visit the Brioni factories in Rome and Milan, Italy? Thank you dearly in advance!


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> 1. Buttonholes on the Kiton are finer with closer stitching. Perhaps the more substantial thread Oxxford uses will prove more durable but the Kiton is more artistic and softer.


It may not be the thread gauge but the method of make that gives the Oxxford buttonhole a more substantial appearance.

As an aside, I don't think that any garment receives more hand needlework 
than Oxxford. (Though one will occasionally hear tales of mysterious Italian ateliers that are not equipped with even one sewing machine:icon_smile_wink.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Tomasso said:


> It may not be the thread gauge but the method of make that gives the Oxxford buttonhole a more substantial appearance.
> 
> As an aside, I don't think that any garment receives more hand needlework
> than Oxxford. (Though one will occasionally hear tales of mysterious Italian ateliers that are not equipped with even one sewing machine:icon_smile_wink.


Yes and no. I don't think Oxxford attaches the lining by hand, while a lot of tailors in Italy do (not Kiton). Also, a lot of Italian shops pickstitch each seam which is technically more handwork than Oxxford, but it is not really necessary. I believe that just about everybody does the back seams and the sleeve inseams by machine, but I am no expert as I do not really care so much.

Kiton does not have nearly as much handwork as Oxxford, and the button holes are not nearly as good. Kiton even says so about the buttonholes and does not feel that the Oxxford style of stitching would look right on their clothing.


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

Recognizing that both Kiton and Oxxford are at the upper end of the clothing register, the primary reason/s for preferring or selecting one over the other (if such is even the reason we carry on these discussions) are the characteristics of each house's respective style, namely, cut/model, color combinations and texture. In that respect, while Oxxford certainly carries the day, IMHO, for the traditional look, Kiton is a breath of fresh air that represents the vigor and ambition of youth.

Where Oxxford is far more at home in the Board room -- is more traditionally corporate -- Kiton (in my judgment) is for the self-made; the entrepreneur in all of us. It is a look that is less concerned with money or status (even though you know it requires a fair amout of both), whereas Oxxford is more a product of the monied class, and therefore has a more staid image. (Obviously, none of this is etched in stone, nor without many exceptions; just my way of addressing the two side by side, as that seems to be the thrust of the string.) 

Because of the energy represented in its colors and textures, Kiton, in my view, is also more stylish in social situations, like summer evenings on the terrace at the Getty museum or at the jazz concerts at LACMA.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Kiton does not have nearly as much handwork as Oxxford, and the button holes are not nearly as good.


I politely disagree. I have both and the Kiton buttonholes smoke the Oxxford.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

*buttonholes*



Artisan Fan said:


> I politely disagree. I have both and the Kiton buttonholes smoke the Oxxford.


oxxford buttonholes are heavyer because they are made twice. once onthe front and then again on the back. thats double thick. the undercollar pictured has been padded stitched by machine. oxxford collars are hand padded. the lapels are by hand also. years ago even their canvases were by hand also.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

*pocket flap ?????*

thats not a pocket flap. thats a welt for a breast pocket.


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

For bargain-hunters among the Kiton-obsessed,
as of last week Jeremy's in San Francisco had several 
Kiton Suits in stock at extraordinary discounts, also 
a few Oxxfords.

Jeremys
2 South Park San Francisco
415-882-4929

A dissenting note. In this thread the assumption is
that hand work is superior. Is that true or is it
a conceit of those who can afford it? It reminds
me of the persistence of the luxury
mechanical watch industry, Patkek Phillipe, et
al, when Quartz movement is technically superior.

I am as much as a clothing snob as the next forum
member, but I can neither afford, nor do I like
Kiton, ditto Brioni. The one's I've seen have too
much padding for my taste. I like natural shoulders and do 
not like soft fabrics. If I won the lottery, I'd probably
go to New York and find semi-trad tailor.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

comrade said:


> A dissenting note. In this thread the assumption is
> that hand work is superior. Is that true or is it
> a conceit of those who can afford it? It reminds
> me of the persistence of the luxury
> ...


Depends on what you consider "superior." A quartz watch is technically _different_, but it's really only superior when it comes to accuracy.

How about handmade (like the best mechanical movements) and quartz? Try the Grand Seiko with the 4F movements. These watches are only sold in Japan and a couple of the Pacific Rim countries. The quartz movements are assembled by hand, as is the entire watch. Accurate to within 10 seconds a year. Price ranges from around $3000 up to $10,000. This ain't your average Seiko.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> In this thread the assumption is
> that hand work is superior.


I think that's a good assumption. Sometimes machine work is good also but I think only 10% or so of the time. I personally prefer the handmade look such as those from slightly puckered button holes. It looks charming in an old world way...

Oxxford makes a great suit but they are heavier than Kiton and wear differently. I prefer Kiton but I could live with both easily. Oxxford has some great videos they used to pass out at Neimans. Really talks about the construction. I have a couple from the 90s...still on video tape!


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

*You May Have Been Blinded By The Buttons.*



Artisan Fan said:


> I politely disagree. I have both and the Kiton buttonholes *smoke* the Oxxford.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

LOL! Very funny.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Kiton's artisans are wonderful. 

Zegnamtl is no slouch himself as a photographer and one of the 4-5 nicest people you'll ever meet.

Thanks for a great thread!


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

*Watches and Stiches*

GMF,

" A quartz watch is technically different, but it's only superior
when it comes to accuracy". Following this reasoning, a portable 
sun dial made of the finest materials and crafted to a high 
aesthetic, or a hour glass of Baccarat crystal would be equal
to a mechanical watch. Of course, I'm being a bit facetious,
but it seems that both Kiton and Oxxford indulge in gratuitious
hand work. What about the great bespoke tailors as in Anderson
Shepard, or Huntsman? Do they do as much hand work? Or
is the handwork in Kiton or Oxxford only special for RTW?


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

comrade said:


> Of course, I'm being a bit facetious,


Agreed!


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Thank you Chuck,
it is very kind of you.

I think one of the subtleties that you either appreciate or do not appreciate with a company like Kiton is their lack of need to nit pick and judge others and to be confident and comfortable enough in their own skin to acknowledge good work by others and still remain very proud of their own work (apparently a rather rare and difficult quality to ask for!).


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> Thank you Chuck,
> it is very kind of you.
> 
> I think one of the subtleties that you either appreciate or do not appreciate with a company like Kiton is their lack of need to nit pick and judge others and to be confident and comfortable enough in their own skin to acknowledge good work by others and still remain very proud of their own work (apparently a rather rare and difficult quality to ask for!).


Very, very true.


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## Jimmy G (Mar 23, 2006)

I recall coming across pictures taken in Kiton workshop with Sal Tranchino and the gang. Two things immediately caught my eye: no sewing machines nor people under the age of 40 in sight. Instead, rows of tables with old timers behind them literally sewing clothes in their lap. 
In Napoli the artisans are said to generally scoff at the stuff made " up north " for being sterile at best, or produced with the aid of glue and heavy machinery at worst. 
So when you buy Kiton, Isaia, Finamore or Borrelli you know you aren't dealing with jokers.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Jimmy G said:


> I recall coming across pictures taken in Kiton workshop with Sal Tranchino and the gang. Two things immediately caught my eye: no sewing machines nor people under the age of 40 in sight. Instead, rows of tables with old timers behind them literally sewing clothes in their lap.
> In Napoli the artisans are said to generally scoff at the stuff made " up north " for being sterile at best, or produced with the aid of glue and heavy machinery at worst.
> So when you buy Kiton, Isaia, Finamore or Borrelli you know you aren't dealing with jokers.


They don't scoff much... I think the addage that applies is that when you are good, you must run around and tell everyone. When you are great - they tell you.

With me they seem to run to the psychiatrist and ask what to do about me


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Jimmy G said:


> I recall coming across pictures taken in Kiton workshop with Sal Tranchino and the gang. Two things immediately caught my eye: no sewing machines nor people under the age of 40 in sight.


So the machines and the youngsters were shoved into the cupboard?


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## T4phage (Nov 12, 2003)

Tomasso said:


> .....As an aside, I don't think that any garment receives more hand needlework
> than Oxxford. (Though one will occasionally hear tales of mysterious Italian ateliers that are not equipped with even one sewing machine:icon_smile_wink.


Actually, there are quite a few Italian BESPOKE makers who have more handwork/needlework than Oxxford.


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## taillfuzz (Mar 30, 2004)

T4phage said:


> Actually, there are quite a few Italian BESPOKE makers who have more handwork/needlework than Oxxford.


Oxxford is a 22 hour suit; Kiton and Brioni take a few hours less. It is possible to spend many more hours sewing a suit by hand, but the law of diminishing returns becomes very signifigant if many more hours of labor are applied.


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## taillfuzz (Mar 30, 2004)

a tailor said:


> oxxford buttonholes are heavyer because they are made twice. once onthe front and then again on the back. thats double thick. the undercollar pictured has been padded stitched by machine. oxxford collars are hand padded. the lapels are by hand also. years ago even their canvases were by hand also.


Oxxford buttonholes seem to last forever. I love Kiton and Brioni, great styling and fabrics, but they are not as durable as Oxxford. If I want to wear a suit frequently I buy Oxxford. Oxxford does not cut any corners in the assembly process.

My Kiton suits and jackets are very special, but the fabrics are delicate and will not take rough wear.


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## T4phage (Nov 12, 2003)

taillfuzz said:


> Oxxford is a 22 hour suit; Kiton and Brioni take a few hours less. It is possible to spend many more hours sewing a suit by hand, but the law of diminishing returns becomes very signifigant if many more hours of labor are applied.


As I said... BESPOKE.. and I was not talking about rtw/mtm Brioni or Kiton. A bespoke suit takes more than 22 hours to make.


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## taillfuzz (Mar 30, 2004)

T4phage said:


> As I said... BESPOKE.. and I was not talking about rtw/mtm Brioni or Kiton. A bespoke suit takes more than 22 hours to make.


Some time ago I read about a 50 hour suit. As I recall it cost about $10,000.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

T4phage said:


> Actually, there are quite a few Italian BESPOKE makers who have more handwork/needlework than Oxxford.


Would you care to elaborate? Come on, drop some names.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

iammatt said:


> Yes and no. I don't think Oxxford attaches the lining by hand, while a lot of tailors in Italy do (not Kiton). Also, a lot of Italian shops pickstitch each seam which is technically more handwork than Oxxford, but it is not really necessary. I believe that just about everybody does the back seams and the sleeve inseams by machine, but I am no expert as I do not really care so much.
> 
> Kiton does not have nearly as much handwork as Oxxford, and the button holes are not nearly as good. Kiton even says so about the buttonholes and does not feel that the Oxxford style of stitching would look right on their clothing.


Oxxford jackets, vests and possibly pants are also available with pick stitching, which is done by hand, according to what a salesperson at Victor Talbots in Greenvale, NY (who has been selling Oxxford since 1994) told me a couple of months ago. In fact, the only thing that Oxxford does by machine is long straightline seams. Everything else by Oxxford (including short straightline seams and the optional pick stitching that I just mentioned) is done completely by hand. I read this in an article online several months back. Unfortunately, I do not remember the name of the website that this article was on. Therefore, I cannot provide a link.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> In fact, the only thing that Oxxford does by machine is long straightline seams.


Kiton will also do long seams by machine such as those on trousers.

You really can't go wrong with either make.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Hey I know.... let's get one of each and count each and every machine stitch and each and every hand-stitch.

Seriously guys - It's like deciding which Playmate should be Playmate of the Year - when you get to this level the differences are nitpicky and variables like which maker's style is most appealing to you is going to have a lot more impact on how pleased you are.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Very interesting. It sounds like things have evolved (probably for the better) at Kiton over th years. Your excellent report and pics have put to rest some of the questions that have surrounded Kiton on these boards. I eagerly await your report on Oxxford!


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> Hey I know.... let's get one of each and count each and every machine stitch and each and every hand-stitch.
> 
> Seriously guys - It's like deciding which Playmate should be Playmate of the Year - when you get to this level the differences are nitpicky and variables like which maker's style is most appealing to you is going to have a lot more impact on how pleased you are.


I'd certainly agree with that. Whether or not my collars are hand- or machine-done probably makes no real world difference (sleeve heads, though, might be another matter). Still, it's interesting to know.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Chuck wrote:

Seriously guys - It's like deciding which Playmate should be Playmate of the Year - when you get to this level the differences.......



I hear you Chuck!

I must admit, in retrospect, I am really glad I did not get in to the shirt sewing details and what is machine done and hand done, I think tomatoes would throw all over each other's keyboards in the despite!


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

*Jokers*

"So when you buy Kiton, Isaia, Finamore or Borrelli you know you aren't dealing with jokers."

Jeez! I had no idea that my Isaias, were in the league with Kiton, 
ie. handsewn. What about Belvest? I know it's from the North, the
Veneto, if I am correct. I have one, and it's my favorite recently
purchased Sportcoat. I bought it for fit and apparant quality,
not the stitching. None of these garments cost multiple 1000s
of dollars. Nor did they come from the Nordstroms or Joseph A.
Bank. My clothes are probably mostly machine made but to high
standards of superior materials. Correct?


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## George L. (Jan 14, 2005)

Wheare does Kiton buy the fabrics for suits?


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

How many people do they employ on suits?


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

> Jeez! I had no idea that my Isaias, were in the league with Kiton,
> ie. handsewn. What about Belvest? I know it's from the North, the
> Veneto, if I am correct


Gianluca Isaia has a few lines that are not as good but the main line Gianluca Isaia Napoli is certainly in the class we're discussing.

Belvest makes a superb garment. They don't display the handwork that you might see on some of the others mentioned but they are excellent and make for many of the high end designers and store lines - like Hermes and folks like that.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Last time I was in Dallas at Stanley Korshak, they had some beautiful Belvest jackets.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Kiton will also do long seams by machine such as those on trousers.
> 
> You really can't go wrong with either make.


Both Kiton and Oxxford are 98-100% handmade and 0-2% machine made. I believe that Attolini is 95-100% hand made and 0-5% machine made. But I am not 100% sure about this. I believe that Brioni is 90-95% hand made and 5-10% machine made. But I am not 100% sure about this either. You are correct that you can't go wrong with Oxxford or Kiton. The same holds true for Attolini and Brioni.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

I actually have one Brioni that has more handwork than anything I have seen from Kiton, Attolini or Oxxford or anyone else. Even the long seams up the sleeve are done by hand. TECHNICALLY it may be the best garment I have seen.

....but I prefer my 17.7341% handsewn Canali jackets to it because they are prettier and fit me better.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> I actually have one Brioni that has more handwork than anything I have seen from Kiton, Attolini or Oxxford or anyone else. *Even the long seams up the sleeve are done by hand*.


Did you notice that was the case also on this Zegna I got from you? I was amazed at the level of hand finishing on this jacket when I took it out of the box and looked it over.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

GMF - that was a nice one  Just processed several Zegnas and another of those 15MiMil jackets - great stuff. I like Zegna a LOT - not everyone does around here but some of my favorite jackets are my Zegna's.

(Of course love for ZegnaMtl is a universal phenomenon)


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Chuck,

Where is the icon for blushing??!!

"....but I prefer my 17.7341% handsewn Canali jackets to it because they are prettier and fit me better."

So true!
My Canali MTM is still one of my favorites, it fits like a glove and feels great!

But I really thought it was 17.97431% hand sewn? 
Are you sure it only 17.7341?


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Well.... they make mine with 18.0471% handstitching because I'm better than you.

javascript:emoticon(':moon:')

LOL


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## thinman (Jan 21, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> Hey I know.... let's get one of each and count each and every machine stitch and each and every hand-stitch.
> 
> Seriously guys - It's like deciding which Playmate should be Playmate of the Year - when you get to this level the differences are nitpicky and variables like which maker's style is most appealing to you is going to have a lot more impact on how pleased you are.


This is so true. When we're comparing the likes of Kiton, Brioni, or Oxxford, it's the styling that is the deciding factor, not who makes the best buttonholes.

So Chuck, when can we expect you to follow zegnamtl's lead and give us a report from your tour of "The Mansion" (that is, the Playboy Mansion)?


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

*Nitpicky?*



Chuck Franke said:


> Seriously guys - It's like deciding which Playmate should be Playmate of the Year - when you get to this level the differences are nitpicky


I think that comparing the differences, in method and quality of construction, between makers is the hallmark of the aficionado. All enthusiasts(auto, watch, boat, antique, etc..) tend to wallow in the minutiae. After all, God is in the Details.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

> So Chuck, when can we expect you to follow zegnamtl's lead and give us a report from your tour of "The Mansion" (that is, the Playboy Mansion)?


Well, I really like my new Nikon D50 and I acknowledge Heff's discriminating eye. The thing about it is that I don't know a good proctologist to remove the D-50 from my rectum when I explain the artistic merits of this endeavor to Jill.

...So while I won't preclude the possibility of such a photo shoot you may safely wait for this sign from God.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

Wasn't there a sign like this in _High Plains Drifter_? :icon_smile_big:


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

*Battistoni?*

What about Battistoni?
I have a Battistoni jacket with a Barneys Label
that I picked up a few years ago at a very attractive
price at Jeremy's in San Francisco. It is heavier and
more structured that either my Isaia's or Belvest.
However, rammed into the overhead baggage on
a trip from San Francisco to Prague ( two plane
changes-- 23 hours), it was reaady to wear after
hanging in my hotel closet for a few hours. The
Battistoni's I've seen at Barneys in LA seem lighter
and have more shoulder padding. Not to my taste.


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## Mr. Golem (Mar 18, 2006)

What about Mariano Rubinacci? Or is it more of the Saville Row equivalent, but in Italy?


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## shoefan (Oct 30, 2003)

Just for the record, if we are discussing labels, it is worth noting that:

The Battistoni RTW is made by Castangia; a very nice maker, though I personally don't like the heavily-padded shoulders I've seen on the Battistoni's at Barney's NY.

The Rubinacci/London House RTW suits I've seen (via Barney's) are made by Belvest, though with a drapier shoulder/chest than the regular Belvest models.

Both of these makers have a nice amount of hand-work, but a bit less as a general proposition than that of Oxxford, Kiton (and Brioni and Borrelli?).


I dropped in on a trunk show this winter in Florida, where a senior Oxxford executive was present and asserted that Kiton has very little hand-work, but rather is made with machines that make it look like hand-work. I wasn't in the mood to call him a lier, but I certainly didn't believe him, based on what I've read and seen. This thread puts the lie to his statements, and it is great to read about an enlightening visit.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Shoefan wrote:

I dropped in on a trunk show this winter in Florida, where a senior Oxxford executive was present and asserted that Kiton has very little hand-work, but rather is made with machines that make it look like hand-work. I wasn't in the mood to call him a lier, but I certainly didn't believe him, based on what I've read and seen. This thread puts the lie to his statements, and it is great to read about an enlightening visit.

~~~~

That is the very thing you would never hear someone at Kiton say about Oxxford or anyone else.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> Well.... they make mine with 18.0471% handstitching because I'm better than you.
> 
> javascript:emoticon(':moon:')
> 
> LOL


That is sooooo Funny, my friends say that same line to each other all the time, that and, "I'm better than you, and Women feed me grapes.

Great Thread, Great Pics!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> where a senior Oxxford executive was present and asserted that Kiton has very little hand-work, but rather is made with machines that make it look like hand-work.


That's a flat out lie and it reflects poorly on Oxxford to talk about their competition that way. Kiton has never done that in front of me or that I am aware of.

The proof is in the wearing and my Kitons are more comfortable than my Oxxfords.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Artisan Fan wrote:
The proof is in the wearing and my Kitons are more comfortable than my Oxxfords.

~~~~

This is so personal only each man can say that and apply it to himself, never across the board.

This is what we make, we love and are proud of it, we hope you like it as much as we do, is more the mid set.

And there is plenty of great alternatives if you don't.

I have said, Brioni holds you like a glove, 
Kiton is more like having the soft hand of your girlfriend resting on you.
Neither is better,
one just appeals to a certain man and the other to another.
Love them both for what they are and thank god there is so much diversity to choose from.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> Artisan Fan wrote:
> The proof is in the wearing and my Kitons are more comfortable than my Oxxfords.
> 
> ~~~~
> ...


Totally true about the class of Kiton and their management. Both Brioni and Kiton are that way. Borrelli and the other "competitors" do tons of badmouthing.

As far as Rubinacci, it is a whole different animal. Search Styleforum for Rubinacci and see what Spalla had to say. It is like comparing apples and ducks.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> This is so personal only each man can say that and apply it to himself, never across the board.


I guess that is true, but Kiton fits me personally better than my Oxxford or Brioni. Maybe it's body shape at the end of the day and/or personal preference. Sort of a Bentley v. Rolls or Lamborghini v. Ferrari comparison.

One thing I do know for certain...Kiton has significant handwork.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

*You be the judge*

Notice that the pattern of the tattersall matches exactly at the points of the collar. This is good.

Notice that at the top of the collar leaf (where the fingers are), the pattern on the right-hand side of the collar leaf is at least 3/16" out of sync with the pattern on the left-hand side of the collar leaf. Someone has stretched the hell out of that fabric during the sewing.

No editorial comments. You be the judge.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Alex,

Forgive the untrained eye on my behalf.
I hope you can sharpen it up a notch or two.

The shirt is being held up quickly while I snap a picture,
there are several creases in the fabric.

Could it be that the shirt is not being held properly (good and straight)??

I will pop in my local retailer and try this on a few shirts and see how they match up with a little more effort in holding the shirt well.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

My Canali MTM is still one of my favorites, it fits like a glove and feels great!
[/QUOTE]

Too bad Canali made to measure is much more difficult to come by than all other MTM.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I saw some nice Canali at Bloomingdales this weekend but there is not very much handwork on their general line. I love some of their fabrics.


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## Mr. Golem (Mar 18, 2006)

I had this question from another thread, but apparently Zegna has a code on their tags that tells you how fine the fabric on a suit is. Can someone tell me what each code corresponds to what fineness?



Artisan Fan said:


> ...you can judge Zegna fabric by looking under Tessuto in the label and knowing instantly what the fabric letter equates to in wool fineness.


There it is, from the You might be a dandy if... thread.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I can shed some light...EGFH are entry level Zegna fabrics. MNOPQ and higher are superfine wools or wool mixes. Q I believe is their light 15 milmil 15 fabric. Some are Trofeo, some are Traveler but I forget the exact correspondence. There is a letter that corresponds to cashmere also...

The 15 mil mil 15 fabrics are incredible. Soft hande, beautiful patterns and coloring, suprising durability. I have a sport coat and grey suit of the material. Should have had one done in navy as well.

The letters are located in the white label on the cuff under "Tessuto", Italian for fabric.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

I think Canali's strength is their fit. What I have seen they fit most body shapes well and need little alteration. I have not looked closely at the make.

The truth about hand work is that as the quantity of suits made goes up, some quality goes down. The accountants look at production and say if you machine padded the collar and lapel that would save 3 hours of production time. Multiply that by how many jackets made and hours of labor saved. Meanwhile the magazines want more money to run the ads, the distributors need a little more money and so on and so on. Then some one in production says OK, its on the inside of the jacket, no one sees it anyway.

Do not interpret my comments the wrong way. Kiton is a fine maker. I do not question their integrity. My observations run across the entire industry. I will say by comparison the value of a custom made suit from a fine tailor is very high. They don't have distibution channels, advertising budgets and all the indirect costs of RTW. You pay for cloth and the labor of a fine craftsman and get a suit that is literally one of a kind.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Chris,

Do you have pics of the handwork in your suits?

It would be great to see your handmade suits. I've heard good things.


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## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

"I will say by comparison the value of a custom made suit from a fine tailor is very high."

So true!!!


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Chris,
> 
> Do you have pics of the handwork in your suits?
> 
> It would be great to see your handmade suits. I've heard good things.


It seems that Chris is a bit shy about promoting his work, not an entirely uncommon attitude among artisans. But, I've heard tell that if one visits his shop on Oak Street(Chicago) that he is an affable and friendly host who will show his make in all its glory.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

ZegnaMtl said:


> The shirt is being held up quickly while I snap a picture,
> there are several creases in the fabric.
> 
> Could it be that the shirt is not being held properly (good and straight)??


 Anything is possible. I tend to think that Chris hit it on the head:


Chris Despos said:


> The truth about hand work is that as the quantity of suits made goes up, some quality goes down. The accountants look at production ...


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Chris,

I completely understand and agree with the sad realities of production issues of check and balances and bottom line! 

My dad had a great tailor in Old Montreal back when it was near empty and the rents were give always. Long since driven out by boutique hotels and 6 dollar a shot espresso bars, many closed shop instead of relocating.

My experiences with Montreal tailors since has been lack luster to acceptable. Added by the fact I am close to a perfect 40r, I have not beaten down many new doors of late.

One tailor I visited made a jacket that was "livable", he warned me it would take as many as three jackets before it was perfect! I understand this but when I am so close to a perfect 40, that represents a beautiful Borrelli or Kiton for 2 OK jackets and one great one at the end of the mission. 
In the long term, yes I see the benefits, but the overall level of work was not high enough to make me want to follow the process through to the end.

That was one of elements of my first fitting with Alex K that I appreciated very much. His first shirt will be a mock up so to speak from defect fabric or what ever, from there he makes your first "final shirt". 
I see this as a huge plus after my experiences here!

Which brings me to......

I met you in NYC and you were perfectly put together, everything looked great! I do not doubt those fortunate enough to find and be able to visit a fine tailor are ahead of the game in the long term over RTW or high end MTM.

I am trying to get to Oxxford in Chicago in the coming weeks, if this comes together, can we meet and discuss a workable plan for fittings?

(I posted this in a rush, please forgive typos or grammar!)


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The truth about hand work is that as the quantity of suits made goes up, some quality goes down.


True, but Kiton is not making a large quantity compared to others.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

AF,

I think the reference applied more to house like Canali and Zegna that have huge runs. As you mention, the actual number of units made by Kiton is very low comparatively speaking.

At a certain point, I think it makes economic sense to job out the canvas work and focus on the main task at hand.

We can take it to extremes and wonder why Green or Kiton does not do their own tannery work on shoe leather too!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I think the reference applied more to house like Canali and Zegna that have huge runs.


In that case, I heartily agree. While not up to Chris and Alex standards, I have been very impressed with Zegna. They seem to be great suits for the money. I started on Dunhill which was made by Zegna and progressed on to E. Zegna sartorial then those bastards at Neimans got me hooked on Kiton. Shame on them.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> In that case, I heartily agree. While not up to Chris and Alex standards, I have been very impressed with Zegna. They seem to be great suits for the money. I started on Dunhill which was made by Zegna and progressed on to E. Zegna sartorial then those bastards at Neimans got me hooked on Kiton. Shame on them.


I think that Alex was talking abot Kiton. In general, I disagree with him. I think that Kiton's handwork is damn good, and as good as many small shops. However, there are certainly small shops that have noticeably better handwork than Kiton. There are also many that are noticeably worse.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

Can we get a pictoral comparison to see the difference?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I think that Alex was talking abot Kiton.


Then I would strongly disagree. Kiton makes some of the finest clothes I have been able to find as a world traveler.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Then I would strongly disagree. Kiton makes some of the finest clothes I have been able to find as a world traveler.


I agree with you.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

iammatt said:


> I think that Alex was talking abot Kiton. In general, I disagree with him.


 Are you referring to me or Alex D.?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

You , although in general I agree with you. In general I disagree with you regarding Kiton.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

iammatt said:


> You , although in general I agree with you. In general I disagree with you regarding Kiton.


--- Are you a Kiton's spokesman? I think you're on the take. Silvano pays you also.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Sophistication worte:

Are you a Kiton's spokesman? I think you're on the take.

~~~

No, I think he is just impassioned! 
Is there any other way to be?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

iammatt said:


> You , although in general I agree with you. In general I disagree with you regarding Kiton.


 Oh, great! But I didn't say anything about Kiton. You can't disagree with what I might happen to think if I don't say what I might be thinking. ic12337:

I merely pointed out that whoever sewed the one collar in the one photo stretched one side of the cloth about 3/16" more than the other - or it could be that the cutter did so when cutting. I offered no opinion but instead suggested that the reader decide for themselves. I get into 'nuf trouble around here without members disliking what I *didn't* say. :crazy:


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## Jimmy G (Mar 23, 2006)

Could it be that @ Kiton sewing machines are stored at a dedicated off-limits-to-civilians location and wheeled out on a need-to-use basis only ? Hence no incriminating photographs. 
And since somebody brought up Battistoni, any idea as to why they seem to put cement in the collar of their shirts ? Recently I had an opportunity to pick up a few of their dress shirts ( from Barney's batch ) offered @ a sweet price, but ended up passing. The collars were so stiff and unruly you'd wonder whether they've popped a couple of viagras or something.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Oh, great! But I didn't say anything about Kiton. You can't disagree with what I might happen to think if I don't say what I might be thinking. ic12337:
> 
> I merely pointed out that whoever sewed the one collar in the one photo stretched one side of the cloth about 3/16" more than the other - or it could be that the cutter did so when cutting. I offered no opinion but instead suggested that the reader decide for themselves. I get into 'nuf trouble around here without members disliking what I *didn't* say. :crazy:


Oh, I do agree with you about the collar. I just think that they generally keep a pretty high standard up in their hand sewing.

Just ask my wife: I can disagree with just about anything whether somebody thinks it or not .


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> (Of course love for ZegnaMtl is a universal phenomenon)


What is Mtl?


----------



## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

*Oh, Canada!*



Lino said:


> What is Mtl?


Montreal.:icon_smile_wink:


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Jimmy G,

I assure you that is not the case!
It is not their style at all!
They are proud enough of what they do, they would not disgrace themselves in such a way! 

They are not even remotely close to insulted if you do not share their views and value of the work.

I showed up in the shop wearing a Borrelli shirt, they knew instantly it was not their work and had nothing but good things to say about Borrelli.

(Edit: They asked, that is a Borrelli? or maybe a Finamore, but probably a Borrelli.)

I posted this with the idea of dispelling some of the hear say about how much hand work is done. 

Nothing more.

Since, as this debate clearly shows, the value and appreciation placed on the final product and it's style and fit is purely subjective and no one individual can respond in an across the board manner "yes, no, good, bad" on that aspect. To each his own.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I merely pointed out that whoever sewed the one collar in the one photo stretched one side of the cloth about 3/16" more than the other


Alex, I think it's hard to tell from the photograph because of how bunched up it is from the bottom-in other words I'm not sure the collars are held evenly. In any event, I defer to your judgment on shirts.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Tomasso,

You are too kind in your brevity!
I would have thought a response along the lines of,

"it is a rare form of completely twisted and misguided Zegna wearing buffoon found only in Montreal" 

would have been forth coming.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

zegnamtl said:


> "it is a rare form of completely twisted and misguided Zegna wearing buffoon found only in Montreal"
> 
> would have been forth coming.


Nahhhhhhhhh..... It can be found in New York occasionally and has turned up in Europe as well


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

I read with much interest the discussion as to Kiton's handwork from its various "defenders of the faith." I then returned to Zegnamtl's excellent photos.

The photos show that that the collar canvas is machine sewn. There is no question about it. The telltale evidence is the continous line of thread. There is no photo of the lapels, but it is a safe bet that these are also machine sewn. Generally, collar/lapels are either all hand or all machine. Handsewing does not have this continuous line running from stitch to stitch. Although the photo shows some hand finishing, the collar itself is machine sewn.

In comparison, Oxxford's collar and lapels are hand sewn. Greenfield's top of the line is handsewn (not its Brooks MTM). I believe that Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored line is handsewn. Most bespoke tailors worth their salt hand pad the canvas.

The rationale for handsewing is that the tailor's stitching is done while the tailor turns and shapes the canvas in his hand. He can provide for the curves and rounding of these parts against the body. This supposedly provides a "memory" in the collar and lapels and "belly" in the lapels. In comparison, machine made collars and lapels are sewn flat, and there is no give for such rounded areas. Machine sewing does not produce the same type of roundness. 

What is the cost difference between hand sewing and machine sewing? It takes about 1.5 hours or more for a skilled tailor to hand sew. For example, Oxxford has dedicated tailors who only handle collars and lapels. There are about 850 hand stitches in the collar and 1,150 in the lapels. An Oxxford tailor would turn-out about 3.5 a day. This type of work is tedious and repetitive but involves a good deal of skill. In comparison, machine sewing takes about 1 minute. If you owned a clothing factory, which process would you use to save money?

Don't get me wrong. I am not seeking to start a religious war against Kiton. It's a fine, fine garment with much handwork, and its cloths are fit for a king. However, the evidence speaks for itself. Kiton is stinting on this one area which is not readily visible to the buyer. Hand sewing in this vital area is what separates the men from the boys.

On the issue of price, an Oxxford and an Hickey Freeman Hand Tailored start at about $2,400. Kiton starts at about $5,000. I respectfully, submit that the higher price of Kiton cannot be attributed to Kiton's alleged handwork.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

son of brummell said:



> Don't get me wrong. I am not seeking to start a religious war against Kiton. It's a fine, fine garment with much handwork, and its cloths are fit for a king. However, the evidence speaks for itself. Kiton is stinting on this one area which is not readily visible to the buyer. Hand sewing in this vital area is what separates the men from the boys.


Since I don't own a Kiton I don't have a dog in this fight, but in fairness to Kiton isn't it possible that some of their jackets do have hand-sewn lapels while some don't, and the picture just happens to be of the latter? Surely the K50, for example, would have hand-sewn lapels, no?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The photos show that that the collar canvas is machine sewn. There is no question about it.


Mark, my suits have handsewn collars from what I can tell. I will talk to Massimo about this and report back...he would be a fair source of data for this. As far as I know, all Kiton suits have handsewn lapels and I believe the same is true for Brioni. The Kiton lapel just has too good of a "roll" to be a product of machine make.



> In comparison, machine sewing takes about 1 minute. If you owned a clothing factory, which process would you use to save money?


One reason I buy Kiton is to have a small volume artisan shop that doesn't care about saving money.


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> One reason I buy Kiton is to have a small volume artisan shop _*that doesn't care about saving money*_.


I think that's pushing it. I hate to rain on your respective parades but you all seem to have quite romantic notions about artisans and their work. I don't have a Kiton suit and have never visited their factory so won't comment on that but the fact is that Kiton (and Oxxford and any tailor or artisan for that matter) is still first and foremost a business.

They may take immense pride in their work and produce high quality items but they are not a not-for-profit organization that exists for the sole purpose of providing AAAC members with hours of fun debating the sartorial equivalent of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. While not all businesses make cost savings their primary source of competitive advantage, to say they don't care about saving money is to live in a dreamworld.

Just my $.02


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

EL72,

You are totally correct (as usual!).

Some businesses want profits on quality
other just want profits.

From the sounds of these two firms,
they both want profits on a quality product.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> is still first and foremost a business.


True, however if they stop making a quality handmade garment then they will lose customers who are spending $5K to other brands or altogether. I believe the price point allows them and Oxxford and others to create a special handmade item with tons of labor cost and still leave room for profit. It's not like any of these firms advertise in any significant fashion.


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> True, however if they stop making a quality handmade garment then they will lose customers who are spending $5K to other brands or altogether. I believe the price point allows them and Oxxford and others to create a special handmade item with tons of labor cost and still leave room for profit. It's not like any of these firms advertise in any significant fashion.


Obviously, that is their business model and the image they have built a brand on, and I can certainly understand the allure that firms like Kiton and Oxxford therefore represent for many buyers. In fact, advertising or not, their marketing still works incredibly well given how strongly their image of a handmade operation persists. At any rate, I was simply calling you on your comment that they somehow don't care about saving money, which is an obvious exaggeration.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I was simply calling you on your comment that they somehow don't care about saving money, which is an obvious exaggeration.


Fair enough but I do doubt they would suffer a quality hit for the sake of savings. I have met many of their artisans and they describe a quite quality-centric culture.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

P.S. I do have a call into Massimo Bizzocchi. I will report back what I learn.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

dopey said:


> The underside of the collar, which is what I think the Kiton photo illustrates and is not visible when worn, On the top side of the collar, the part that is visible when you are wearing the shirt, the pattern matching is near perfect. Isn't that the part that matters?


 AK's observation included the fact that the fabric had been unduly stretched and I suppose that it's possible that the stretched fabric could affect the integrity of the collars structure. Maybe a shirtmaker would opine.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

I believe that the only way that you could determine if the collar was handsewn is to take apart the collar. I would think that the collar melton would hide any evidence of hand stitching. You would get a definitive answer, but you would lose the patient.

On the lapels you can sometimes tell if there was hand stitching by looking at the underside of the lapel. You would see puckering suggesting hand sewing. However, I understand that this is not definitive in that some tailors sew in a manner in which the puckering or stitching is more prominent. Again, the risk of opening-up the lapels is to risk ruining the coat.

In any event, the photo shows a machine sewn collar. I find this surprising for the brand which proclaims itself as the best of the best.

If Kiton makes some suits with machine collars and some without, then this would be a bit of a consumer fraud.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> In any event, the photo shows a machine sewn collar. I find this surprising for the brand which proclaims itself as the best of the best. If Kiton makes some suits with machine collars and some without, then this would be a bit of a consumer fraud.


Mark,

I know you are an Oxxford fan but you are being very hard on Kiton I think. I am sure there is significant handwork in the Kiton garment based on the six suits I have and all the MTM shirts and pants I have done. I can respect that Oxxford may be a great value relative to price but I think it's premature to use a couple of photographs to suggest that the Kiton jacket is not handmade. I think at a minimum further research is in order.

Based on my truly excellent experiences with Kiton and its representatives, I am going to stand by them until we learn more.

I'm also not sure the photographs indicate there is any machine work...there are no machines and every Kiton article I have seen photos of has men sewing by hand at benches. I believe several articles reference Ciro discussing the large amount of handwork. I think their jackets have 20+ hours of manufacture.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Artisan Fan,

The photo of the collar shows a machine stitched collar. It looks the same as machine made collars that I have seen in Martin Greenfiled, Adrian Jules, and Coppley. The photo doesn't look like hand stitching based on my inspections of half-finished Oxxfords and various bespokes that I have seen in basted form.

The Oxxford website shows the difference in the manner of stitching. Hand stitching does not have a continuous line of thread connecting each stitch. See www.oxxfordclothes.com.

Does this shortcut make Kiton a lesser suit? No. Does this make ruin the coat? I think not. But I find it surprising from a company which proclaims that its suits are made by hand the old fashioned way and that no compromises are made.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Never in my wildest dreams had I thought such a debate would be started with this thread. 
Being someone who is very loyal to those who are good to me, I appreciate everyone’s loyalties to which ever house it is they feel serves them well.
It was Mark's loyalty to Oxxford that prompted me to look at them for the first time on my last visit to NYC.

AF,

I believe you are making the same mistake that I made a few days ago with another poster thinking the implication was a machine had sewn the collar or lapel.

For clarity and forgive me of you have understood correctly.

Kiton does NOT use a machine on any part of the exterior fabric sewing of the collars or lapels of their jackets. NONE.

The canvas inside the jacket may contain some parts that were machine sewn when putting the chest piece together. Once that piece is made, it is HAND sewn 100 percent. That is what Mark is referring to.

I was there, I watched and I spent the whole day at the shop and they hand sew the jacket save for three seams and some of the interior canvas work.

The estimated hours spent exceeds the 20 hrs you quote according to two people I spoke with at the factory.

At this point perhaps I must confess one point.

There are some things that I can not mention here.
Like the clients of the K series suits.
A list of names that would make you fall out of your chair, but I was asked not to mention these names.
Kiton is a discreet company.

There are a few other items too.
And I am afraid I have to and will always respect that. Just as I will when I visit Oxxford or any other shop.

I had hoped not to entertain this part of the debate at all but it was brought up and I posted a picture I wish I had not (the hand stitching of a collar picture).

I have a picture of a tailor sitting down hand sewing a piece of liner at the K series table, where the suits are made by a different crew, very small crew, in a different manner at one long table. This table is a different beast from the rest of the shop. Each tailor working on his own suit as opposed to working a section of the suit and passing it along to another worker.

Yes, the Kiton lapels do roll very well.

I have been given a very clear understanding of how beautiful rolls are accomplished, what the key to success is, but I was also asked not to photograph it and not describe it.

I must respect that.

I'll see what I can do about posting as few more, but that may take some time.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The canvas inside the jacket may contain some parts that were machine sewn when putting the chest piece together.


Good. That seems an insignificant part of it all. In that case the collar and lapel remain completely handmade then which is different from what Mark is implying. Isn't it possible that machine work on the canvas may have some advantage?



> The estimated hours spent exceeds the 20 hrs you quote according to two people I spoke with at the factory.


I've heard that as well from Massimo which is why I added a "plus" to the end of the time quote. I wanted to be more precise but I have not yet been able to reach Massimo.

Thanks Zegnamtl for your comment. Any more pics would be appreciated if that's possible.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The canvas inside the jacket may contain some parts that were machine sewn when putting the chest piece together. Once that piece is made, it is HAND sewn 100 percent. That is what Mark is referring to.


For the record, I was actually suggesting the collar and lapel were handstitched in the prior posts.

Also. let's be clear I have no major quarrel with Mark. I am only trying to come to some understanding of how much is handmade. Your trip to the Kiton factory seems to confirm my suspicions on quality.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

dopey said:


> Alex: You spurred me to check one of my shirts, from a maker that generally does a fair job of pattern matching overall with some parts done well and some parts done not so well.
> 
> The underside of the collar, which is what I think the Kiton photo illustrates and is not visible when worn, is much like the Kiton illustration, perhaps a bit worse. On the top side of the collar, the part that is visible when you are wearing the shirt, the pattern matching is near perfect. Isn't that the part that matters?


 Everything you say is correct except for one: That is not the underside of the collar.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Tomasso said:


> AK's observation included the fact that the fabric had been unduly stretched and I suppose that it's possible that the stretched fabric could affect the integrity of the collars structure. Maybe a shirtmaker would opine.


 It could to some degree, but the ten-times stronger interlining would mostly overpower any potential affecting of the integrity. One side might curl a bit more. It is more likely, on reflection, to be a combination of uneven cutting with a bit of stretching.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> One reason I buy Kiton is to have a small volume artisan shop that doesn't care about saving money.


My suit is 45+ hours. I use just a straight stitch machine where needed. Lapels & collars are hand padded. Make my own canvas with hand padding. Use high quality cloth for which I pay a premium price. A lot of months more money goes out than comes in. 
By your own citeria, I am your man.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Chris Despos said:


> My suit is 45+ hours. I use just a straight stitch machine where needed. Lapels & collars are hand padded. Make my own canvas with hand padding. Use high quality cloth for which I pay a premium price. A lot of months more money goes out than comes in.
> By your own citeria, I am your man.


About how much would a standard Despos Original (R) in a quality Italian 140s (or whatever Kiton uses) cost?

I think Mark's point is that a Kiton MTM for instance costs more than a fully bespoke suit.

The conventional wisdom for why that would be is that the Kiton has more handwork. If that's not true and if it can be determined exactly how much handwork is in it, then a value can more intelligently be assigned to the brand premium in a Kiton suit.

I don't think his line of inquiry is disparaging in the least and would rather be helpful to those few people out there lucky enough to be seriously considering a kiton vs a bespoke suit.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I don't think his line of inquiry is disparaging in the least and would rather be helpful to those few people out there lucky enough to be seriously considering a kiton vs a bespoke suit.


I like Mark's comments and knowledge here but he is implying that the collars and lapels are not handmade and I don't believe that is true as Zegnamtl says or as my personal experience suggests.

It very well could be that a bespoke suit for the same price is a better value but that is another topic for another day.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

*Huh???*



Artisan Fan said:


> One reason I buy Kiton is to have a small volume artisan shop that doesn't care about saving money.


 I completely understand buying from a small volume artisan shop that considers quality more important than the quarterly bottom line.

But what does "small volume artisan shop" have to do with Kiton? Chris Despos is a small volume artisan shop. So am I. So is Paris Shirt, Anto, Geneva, Nicolosi, Raphael, Shattuck, Leonard. Heck ... even Fioravanti is a small volume artisan shop.

But Kiton? We have wildly differing opinions about what constitutes "small volume".


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

I want to see a head to head picture comparison. I think it would be extremely interesting with commentary about the pros/cons of both.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Sophistication,

A head to head between Kiton and Oxxford?


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I like Mark's comments and knowledge here but he is implying that the collars and lapels are not handmade and I don't believe that is true


A Tailor, who is in fact a tailor, said in post #43 of this thread, "the undercollar pictured has been padded stitched by machine". A Tailor is what would be termed an expert witness. Maybe other tailors would opine.

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=377114&postcount=43


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Tomasso!

Ssshh!

The dust was just settling!
AF misunderstood (as I did very early on) thinking they were referring to the stitching of the final fabric not the lining.
The lining, while machine sewn, is hand sewn in place as is all the fabric that conceals it.

I wish I had not posted that picture!


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

AF,

I must agree with Alex that Kiton is certainly not a "small volume shop".
They certainly are not in the same game as far as number of units produced as Zegna for example, but they are big enough to see a great batch of wool and buy out the whole run.

Kiton has its niche, and it is a very comfortable niche.
I liken them to Leica.
I recall reading a journalist hammer the CEO because Leica had only 1 percent of the market place at the time.
the CEO replied, 

"yes, but it is the right 1 percent!".

Kiton has no eyes on the likes of Zegna, or Chris D or Oxxford for that matter.

You love your Kiton and you have every right to.
The fabrics are beautiful, unique and the cut is great for those who love it.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Thanks Zegnamtl for the pictures and the short article of Kiton. It's very nice.

There is no doubt the collar canvass and melton has been machine padded together, but it is hand sewn on to the coat, which makes it more comfortable than machine sewn on to the coat. 

The lapel is probably hand-padded (no pictures).

While I like the two canvasses (collar and chest) hand-padded, because you can shape it as you wish different places, still hand-padding is not everything. The collar being hand sewn on is by far more comfortable than machine sewn onto the coat or/and the coat cloth covering the canvas being machine sewn onto the collar canvas, too. Also the rest of the coat being hand sewn together, such as shoulder, sleeves, and even facing of the lapels (some bespoke tailors machine sew the facing to the lapels). Garments that are hung together (by hand sewing) instead of nailed together (by machine) have a flexibableness that is not only more comfortable but also stronger. Another tailor says loose enough that the stitches don't snag, which is rather loose. Something about edge stitching- some tailors like them so you can see their nice neat stitching, whereas, others like to hide their edge stitches. Shirts and stitching are a different world. If you are going to spend $3,000 for a suit I would certainly say Spend It On Bespoke, because, even the fittings has a great deal more thought put into it.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

*The Photo!*



Tomasso said:


> A Tailor, who is in fact a tailor, said in post #43 of this thread, "the undercollar pictured has been padded stitched by machine". A Tailor is what would be termed an expert witness. Maybe other tailors would opine.
> 
> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=377114&postcount=43


My comments about Kiton's machine made collar refer solely to the sewing of the canvas. I cannot comment about the rest of the suit.

Generally, the term hand made collar refers to the sewing of the canvas rather than the attachment of the exterior cloth which is done by hand in top of the line suits.

Many suitmakers no longer do this hand sewing due to the intense and tedious labor and shortage of trained tailors. Many suitmakers feel that a machine made canvas is better due to not only the labor savings but the regularity and strength of the stitching.

If one were to make a surprise visit to the workshops of Leonard Logsdail, Chris Depos, Oxxford, and Henry Poole one would see hand padded collars.

Ultimately, you have to like the Kiton suit. A hand sewn or machine padded collar is not a make or break issue, but it is one detail among many.

Like anything in life, there are those who love Kiton and those who hate it. Surprisingly, I know two salesmen who sold it who fell into the enemy camp. However, one old veteran salesman from Bergdorf told me that among his many lines he favors Kiton for himself over Oxxford which he holds in high esteem. Why? It makes him feel young.

Cheers.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Mark S wrote:

.....It makes him feel.....


And there lies the bulk of underlying reason people saddle up to one or the other of the top quality houses, big or small.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> But Kiton? We have wildly differing opinions about what constitutes "small volume".


Alex, you and others take my words out of context. Kiton is certainly small volume compared to Zegna or Armani or perhaps even Brioni. Is it the same as the small volume of your atelier, no. But Kiton is very small compared to most places and their garments are still very labor-intensive and are creating a 90+% handmade garment, maybe 95+% with very high quality fabrics.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The lining, while machine sewn, is hand sewn in place as is all the fabric that conceals it.


Earlier Mark said:



> Although the photo shows some hand finishing, the collar itself is machine sewn.





> In any event, the photo shows a machine sewn collar. I find this surprising for the brand which proclaims itself as the best of the best.


Mark was implying based on my reading that the entire collar and lapels were machine sewn...so know we understand that only the lining was machine sewn. Is this really a big deal? Does this really take away from the quality of the Kiton garment?

The fact is that Oxxford may be better constructed in this one area. I'm certainly fine with that but there may be other areas where Kiton excells. Is the Oxxford a better value given a slightly lower price point? Very possibly.

I've been trying to reach Massimo for some perspective but he is very busy at his showroom so I'm not clear when I will get some better insights.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Many suitmakers feel that a machine made canvas is better due to not only the labor savings but the regularity and strength of the stitching.


Then perhaps Kiton does it for quality reasons...? Maybe they do it in order to spend more hours on other parts of the jacket?



> My comments about Kiton's machine made collar refer solely to the sewing of the canvas.


Well then we may be in agreement. This was not clear earlier in the thread, at least not to me as I explain above.

Perhaps we can all agree we are arguing over differences between a Ferrari and a Lamborghini here. Both high performance but different style and feel.

By the way, I am a big Oxxford fan and three of their suits and two pants MTM. I would prefer if Kiton did an Oxxford style trouser construction.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Perfect, everybody loves everybody and every body loves every thing!

Lets leave this thread to rest before I shy out of doing a similar thread on Oxxford!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Zegnamtl,

Apologies for any pot stirring (so new and I'm already causing trouble ) but I think this civil debate has been very informative and useful. I would love to learn more about Oxxford's production process via pictures.

I think any discussion that helps us get a better understanding of the handmade process is valuable and interesting.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> Perfect, everybody loves everybody and every body loves every thing!
> 
> Lets leave this thread to rest before I shy out of doing a similar thread on Oxxford!


Oh, damn. I've been waiting for AAAC's version of the "black suit" thread to erupt here. That and a nice glass of boubon could make for an awfully entertaining evening! (Of course, I'd need a keyboard protector to keep the bourbon off the keys as I'm laughing!)


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

teacher wrote:

AAAC's version of the "black suit" thread to erupt here

~~~~~

Strangely, I did see a huge rack of black odd pants at the shop...

Kidding 

I really did not!
I swear!


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

ZegnaMtl, please do continue to provide such reports. 

I think that one of the best things someone can do is generate respectful, engaging discussion and this thread certainly has. 

I think it's been a great experience all around - thank you for your role in that.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Cantabrigian, AF

Thank you!
It was a very heavy day yesterday through to this mroning, 
I was touch cranky! :-(


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

Cantabrigian said:


> ZegnaMtl, please do continue to provide such reports.
> 
> I think that one of the best things someone can do is generate respectful, engaging discussion and this thread certainly has.
> 
> I think it's been a great experience all around - thank you for your role in that.


I second Cantabrigian's feeling and I'm sure all posters on this thread will agree that the discussion was civil and respectful and no one feels slighted by anything that was said. (Though I admit that when someone mentioned Carson35's DB - I think it was on this thread - I was afraid things would get ugly fast).


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

So what exactly did you pick up at the company store?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

The company store is really nice. On my visit I did not have enough time to look around a lot, but there were tons of beautiful shoes and there was some really nice tailored clothing. The store also had a lot of Sartorio suits.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Company store?

I was told that I could be measured for a MTM but it would be shipped to the Kiton retailer of my choice any where in the world. 
NO buying at the factory!

But I did not ask for anything. I was happy with being able to spend the day.

All I took home from that visit was a great day with nice people and some pictures.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> Company store?
> 
> I was told that I could be measured for a MTM but it would be shipped to the Kiton retailer of my choice any where in the world.
> NO buying at the factory!
> ...


It is mostly samples and returns from retailers. Adds up to one of the nicest RTW mens stores around. Check it out next time.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

:icon_smile_big: Do they sell a Kiton flag like Brioni does?

You might be a Dandy if you buy a Kiton flag for your yacht on the Amalfi Coast.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> Sophistication,
> 
> A head to head between Kiton and Oxxford?


When Oxxford starts using better fabrics I will start liking them better. I have both Oxxford and Kiton and while I think the Oxxford wears like iron and certainly uses fabrics that are better than stock fabrics from lesser OTR mfgers, I don't think their fabrics are even close to the same league as Kiton. Not even close.

They also wear "heavier" than the Kiton. By that I mean they feel more substantial. Wearing Kiton is like wearing a sweater not a suit coat.

Perry


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## LARon (Jun 19, 2006)

Couldn't have said it better; 100% agree (except that not all Oxxford fabrics wear like iron; I've had two different suits where the hip pockets -- on both suits -- ripped in the same place, at the corner seam).


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> When Oxxford starts using better fabrics I will start liking them better.


I was reluctant to bring this up but this is where I think Oxxford has its biggest weakness, a weak fabric selection/quality.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

pkincy said:


> When Oxxford starts using better fabrics I will start liking them better. I have both Oxxford and Kiton and while I think the Oxxford wears like iron and certainly uses fabrics that are better than stock fabrics from lesser OTR mfgers, I don't think their fabrics are even close to the same league as Kiton. Not even close.
> 
> They also wear "heavier" than the Kiton. By that I mean they feel more substantial. Wearing Kiton is like wearing a sweater not a suit coat.
> 
> Perry


I respectfully disagree. Oxxford uses top of the line cloths.

The regular Oxxford MTM books have selections from all of the leading merchants, such as Smith's, Escorial by Holland & Sherry and Coarsehair by Loro Piana. Oxxford doesn't identify the merchant on its labels on the cloth samples. These are the same cloths sold by these merchants at leading tailors, however, there is a small savings that is passed along to the customer.

Furthermore, at the Oxxford Store and other vendors there are the full selection of cloths by Smith's, W. Bill, Loro Piana, Zegna, Holland & Sherry, Scabal, and others. These are found in these merchants' regular books.

I would say that the Oxxford MTM collection has more variety and breath than the Kiton collection in that Oxxford offers wispy, light Italian cloths in beautiful colorations as well as heavier and traditional English cloths. You can get a beautiful, autumn rust by Loro Piana as well as a classic herringbone.

I must admit that Kiton's collection is probably the most sensuous and beautiful selection of luxury cloths. I feel that it is especially strong in sportscoats. I always enjoy browsing through its books. However, my taste runs more towards the English school. I tend to feel that the Kiton suitings are a bit fragile for everyday use in sitting around an office, the subway, etc.

To each his own.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Oxxford uses top of the line cloths.


I politely disagree. The Kiton cloths are superior.



> I tend to feel that the Kiton suitings are a bit fragile for everyday use in sitting around an office, the subway, etc.


Nonsense. I wear my Kiton suits everywhere (and a lot of challenging overseas flying!) and they hold up beautifully. Their SuperBlu 150s wool is incredibly wrinkle resistant and durable.

Mark, what do you have against Kiton?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I politely disagree. The Kiton cloths are superior.


I don't think that there is any doubt that on average Kiton uses higher quality fabric than any other clothing maker. Whether the cloths necessarily appeal to an individual is another matter. IMO, they tend to go a bit too luxe with some, but they do feel good.



> Nonsense. I wear my Kiton suits everywhere (and a lot of challenging overseas flying!) and they hold up beautifully. Their SuperBlu 150s wool is incredibly wrinkle resistant and durable.
> 
> *Mark, what do you have against Kiton?*


I think that this is a fair question. It would make sense if you held in disfavor all of the similar Italian makers, but you seem to like Borrelli a lot which is many steps closer to the rubbish bin in quality of construction than Kiton.

FWIW, I do think that Oxxford goes the extra mile where other production houses don't. However, I would not put their sewing in the class of many good small makers out there. They are what they are, just like Kiton is what it is.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

Perception is that Attolini does more HW?
Hype or reality?

I will say that I would choose the "style" of cut, silhouette,of Attolini and Borrelli over Kiton, maybe their extremely unpadded model. 

I would never wear Oxxford as their 'sack' like cut is has no style to me, and the HW, all fairly well done, in order of priority at these labels comes second to style to me.

Borrelli makes a better pant than Kiton IMO also unless you pay/request for Kiton to up their standard game.

All great stuff nonethess other tha Oxxford and their lack thereof a silhouette other than the Radcliff.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Borrelli makes a better pant than Kiton IMO


Hmmm, I like their shirts but I don't think the tailored construction is in the same league of either Kiton or Oxxford.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Which mill(s) does Kiton use? 

Do they offer your basic 80's or 100s or do they trade almost exclusively in finer supers?


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Ok, so Oxxford edges out Kiton in the make, Kiton edges out Oxxford in the goods and they draw in the cut, which is personal preference. Is that about right? Of course, now there will be a discussion as to the definition of edge and draw.:icon_smile_wink:


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Tomasso said:


> Ok, so Oxxford edges out Kiton in the make, Kiton edges out Oxxford in the goods and they draw in the cut, which is personal preference. Is that about right? Of course, now there will be a discussion as to the definition of edge and draw.:icon_smile_wink:


LMAO.


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## LotharoftheHillPeople (Apr 30, 2006)

Sophistication said:


> I would never wear Oxxford as their 'sack' like cut is has no style to me, and the HW, all fairly well done, in order of priority at these labels comes second to style to me.
> 
> All great stuff nonethess other tha Oxxford and their lack thereof a silhouette other than the Radcliff.


Soph, I think your take on Oxxford's silhouette is very right; as we all know, they do tend to cut a more traditional suit and, generally speaking, the Radcliffe is an exception to this general rule. However, the Oxxford model I tend to favor is the Salvatore. I have only ever seen a couple and happen to own one in a deep navy with white and baby blue beaded track stripes that I think cuts a natty silhouette. Lots of waist suppression and 3 roll to 2 with 3.75 inch peak lapels. It is one of my favorite suits and is, as far as my opinion of "style" is concerned, next to the sexiness level of any Italian suit I own. 
Ciao
Brad


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Do they offer your basic 80's or 100s or do they trade almost exclusively in finer supers?


They mostly focus on luxury fabrics and I think 150s is a best seller for them.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

*Kiton Fabrics and Mills*

Cantabrigian wrote:

Which mill(s) does Kiton use? 
~~~~~

Like almost everything they do, 
Kiton does it a little differently than most houses.

Perhaps and over simplification, but my understanding is that Kiton will deal directly with the sheep herders that produce the best wools in the world. They will buy out the entire production, sometimes they will take options on the crop for years to come!
On one occasion, they bought shares in the actual sheep!

Then they take the finest of these wools to their top mills (un named) and have it produced to their specs, hence the fabric I have seen, end bolts and swatches, bear no name other than the Kiton name.

They do not sit down with H+S and ask what they have to offer for the coming season, more often than not, they own the raw product before it goes into the mill.

What is it they say on the other side of the pond?

Bloody Brilliant!

I would hazard a guess that very few players in the world can compete with the constant supply of the very best fabrics as a result.

pure speculation on my behalf,
but I would guess that Oxxford has no interest in venturing down such a road as it is not the corner stone of their style and reputation.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Sophistication wrote:

Perception is that Attolini does more HW?

~~~~

At the level either of these two house are at, how much more can there be?
Taking the canvas out of the equation,
what percentage of all the stitches could we be speaking about?

Chris D, Alex D,
what is the total number of stitches you would guess are in a jacket?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> Cantabrigian wrote:
> 
> Which mill(s) does Kiton use?
> ~~~~~
> ...


From what I recall, they use a lot of English mills. I know that they use Harrison's and Johnstons for cashmere, but as you said, it is all custom woven. Loro Piana is not a supplier that they use as they think the quality is not very good.

I have seen the huge blankets of sample fabrics that they have woven. THey are literally the size of a blanket and have a lot of different patterns woven into one sheet. They then select the various patterns and colorways from there.

I believe that the Blanc Blu 180s are woven in Italy by Guabello.

Oxxford is owned by the same company as H&S, so they get a lot of say in the fabrics as well. Their fabrics are great, but at the high end they don't really compare.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

LotharoftheHillPeople said:


> Soph, I think your take on Oxxford's silhouette is very right; as we all know, they do tend to cut a more traditional suit and, generally speaking, the Radcliffe is an exception to this general rule. However, the Oxxford model I tend to favor is the Salvatore. I have only ever seen a couple and happen to own one in a deep navy with white and baby blue beaded track stripes that I think cuts a natty silhouette. Lots of waist suppression and 3 roll to 2 with 3.75 inch peak lapels. It is one of my favorite suits and is, as far as my opinion of "style" is concerned, next to the sexiness level of any Italian suit I own.
> Ciao
> Brad


Oxxford Crest, like the Radcliffe and Salvatore, have a silhouette that is even more (maybe even much more) like the Europeans, particularly the Italians (Kiton and Brioni more so or much more so than all other Europeans-Italian or otherwise). Sadly, IMO, my waist is a bit too wide and a bit too round for Oxxford Crest as well as the Radcliffe and Salvatore. Oh, well. The Gibbons is probably the best Oxxford for me. I will post pictures of myself when I buy some made to measure suits, which I will most likely have enough money to purchase next year in the spring. FWIW, all of Oxxford's fabrics are very, very easily on par with or better (better much more so than on par with) all of Earth's brands and tailors.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

*hand sewing*

notice the pictures pick stitching and buttonholes.see how the fingers must manipulate the needle. it takes finger dexterity lots of practice and a keen eye.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

*hand sewing*

the hand sewer working armholes and shoulders must first baste and re baste till everything is just right before doing the actual sewing. in this picture he is checking the way the sleeve hangs. if it is not to his satisfaction he will do it again. the mark of a real craftsman.

the top of the lapel must be sewn down with hidden stitches. before the top collar basted in place. the seam that joins the lapel with the top collar then must then be sewn with invisible stitches from the outside instead of the inside. the people in these pictures are experts all.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

Fashion TC said:


> Oxxford Crest, like the Radcliffe and Salvatore, have a silhouette that is even more (maybe even much more) like the Europeans, particularly the Italians (Kiton and Brioni more so or much more so than all other Europeans-Italian or otherwise). Sadly, IMO, my waist is a bit too wide and a bit too round for Oxxford Crest as well as the Radcliffe and Salvatore. Oh, well. The Gibbons is probably the best Oxxford for me. I will post pictures of myself when I buy some made to measure suits, which I will most likely have enough money to purchase next year in the spring. FWIW, all of Oxxford's fabrics are very, very easily on par with or better (better much more so than on par with) all of Earth's brands and tailors.


i am sure that oxxford has sizes in all models that have smaller drop [larger waist]


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

*buttonholes*



onthelistbaby said:


> what a great report! thanks.
> 
> qestion: when doing button holes, do they cut the fabric first then sew, or do they sew first? It looks as if he's sewing before cutting, but I can't say for sure.


cut first then sew.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

jstevej said:


> Maybe you went to a different Kiton factory than I did. I have not been there in a few years, so maybe everything is different now, but...
> 
> There are stacks of pre-made collars with the felt and canvas stitched by machine. The setting of the collar is done by hand, but not the shaping and padding.
> 
> ...


the machine padding is only the smaller percent although importent part of the collar. next is shapeing the undercollar by hand iron then basting in place by hand and trimed by hand. the topcollar is shaped by hand iron. is basted in alignment again by hand the edges turned by hand. finally the undercollar is sewn to the body by hand then the topcollar is sewn around the edges and where it meets the liningby hand. last a stoting stitch joins the top collar to the lapel yes by hand. the collar is edge stitched by hand when the rest of the jacket is stitched.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> Mark, what do you have against Kiton?


I bristle at Kiton's shameless self-promotion and marketing that it is the best and that it is keeping alive the flame of old world tailoring.

For example, its self published book of about five years ago states the following:

"The creation of a true 'old world' hand-tailored man's suit is a labor of love for the few artisans who have the talent, skill, and experience to pursue this calling."

"The work that goes into such garments can be likened, somewhat, to the building of a house, the engineering of bridges, designing a magnificent high rise, even to carving a beautiful work of sculpture."

"The true artisan is part craftsman, architect, and engineer. He is above all, a true artist. For these talents there are no compromises or shortcuts. The human hand and eye is involved in every part of their work."

For a company which makes "no compromises or shortcuts" and has the "human hand and eye . . . in very part of their work," it is deceitful that it sells $5,000 suits with machine sewn collars and lapels. Other companies and tailors at a much lower price point are able to produce suits without such compromises and shortcuts. Indeed, if this bit of hand sewing were irrelevant, then those who practice it would switch tomorrow to machines to save the considerable labor costs.

Incidentally, one of my industry sources confirms that both the collar and lapels are machine padded.

This may not be a case of the emperor having no clothes, but he has partially machine made ones.


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## T4phage (Nov 12, 2003)

son of brummell said:


> I bristle at Kiton's shameless self-promotion and marketing that it is the best and that it is keeping alive the flame of old world tailoring.
> 
> For example, its self published book of about five years ago states the following:
> 
> ...


Bravo!
Artisan Fan, there are many many many bespoke tailors in Napoli, let alone in Italy who make suits which are truer to the words of Kiton than Kiton themselves. Go and look.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

A Tailor wrote:


the machine padding is only the smaller percent although important part of the collar. next is shaping the undercollar by hand iron then basting in place by hand and trimmed by hand the machine padding is only the smaller percent although important part of the collar. next is shaping the undercollar by hand iron then basting in place by hand and trimmed by hand


~~~~~~

The few tailors I spoke with about canvas, collars and lapels and rolls
would agree with you Alex.

One made an analogy along the lines of:

You eat a great steak diner in three different restaurants,
All three bought their beef from the same farm,
All three tenderized the beef in a completely different manner,
which of three steaks is better?

The secrets of making great lapels and soft even rolls are like the chef’s secrets of tenderizing the beef more than the beef itself.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Mark,

The visit to Oxxford has been confirmed by all parties.

In the next 30 to 40 days or so I will post a thread of this likeness on Oxxford.

This debate has been an enormous eye opener for me.
I will pay far more attention to this issue this time around and I will not have my daughters in tow on route to our vacation as I did during the Kiton visit.

I am still a pup compared to the likes of Manton, the two Alex, Chris and others. They have forgotten more about tailoring than I will ever know.

From my still green eyes I do not see how one can fairly compare

Fine bespoke tailors (here or in Naples)
Large houses like Oxxford
Smaller niche house like Kiton
Huge houses like Brioni and Zegna.

I do not see them as belonging in the same sentence together.
Each with short comings, each with merits.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> For a company which makes "no compromises or shortcuts" and has the "human hand and eye . . . in very part of their work," it is deceitful that it sells $5,000 suits with machine sewn collars and lapels. Other companies and tailors at a much lower price point are able to produce suits without such compromises and shortcuts. Indeed, if this bit of hand sewing were irrelevant, then those who practice it would switch tomorrow to machines to save the considerable labor costs.


Mark, I'm not sure it's been established that there is a true quality drawback from Kiton's use of machines on the canvas. I spoke with my handmade expert at Neiman's who works with both Oxxford and Kiton and he says that Kiton feels the machine work on the lining offers more consistency and durability for the garment.

Clearly there are other areas where machine work has advantage. I believe even Oxxford uses machine sewing on trousers for instance.



> Artisan Fan, there are many many many bespoke tailors in Napoli, let alone in Italy who make suits which are truer to the words of Kiton than Kiton themselves. Go and look.


I am not arguing this. I'm sure Caraceni, Rubinacci, and others do amazing work that is a level above that of Kiton. But I don't think it's fair to put denigrate Kiton's work when they are creating such a superb, highly handmade suit.


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## T4phage (Nov 12, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> ...... I am not arguing this. I'm sure Caraceni, Rubinacci, and others do amazing work that is a level above that of Kiton. But I don't think it's fair to put denigrate Kiton's work when they are creating such a superb, highly handmade suit.


I am not denigrating Kiton, I admire what Ciro Paone has achieved, and kudos to him for being able to bring such products to the market, and get people to pay those prices. Also, I am not even talking about the larger bespoke houses. Many smaller one or two men laboratori make suits that are a notch above Kiton - at half the price or less.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I am not arguing this. I'm sure Caraceni, Rubinacci, and others do amazing work that is a level above that of Kiton. But I don't think it's fair to put denigrate Kiton's work when they are creating such a superb, highly handmade suit.


Those ones are good, but expensive. On the upside they speak English. Others are just as good but require some language experience.

Neither Oxxford nor Kiton compares to either of the tailors that you mention. Not by a longshot.


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## Clovis (Jan 11, 2005)

*Thank you*

thank you for that wonderful glimpse inside


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## mussel (Oct 19, 2004)

iammatt said:


> It is mostly samples and returns from retailers. Adds up to one of the nicest RTW mens stores around. Check it out next time.


By company store, you mean a store right next to the factory selling returns and sample at discounted prices, like a factory outlet store?


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## thinman (Jan 21, 2005)

Fashion TC said:


> Oxxford Crest, like the Radcliffe and Salvatore, have a silhouette that is even more (maybe even much more) like the Europeans, particularly the Italians (Kiton and Brioni more so or much more so than all other Europeans-Italian or otherwise). Sadly, IMO, my waist is a bit too wide and a bit too round for Oxxford Crest as well as the Radcliffe and Salvatore. Oh, well. The Gibbons is probably the best Oxxford for me. I will post pictures of myself when I buy some made to measure suits, which I will most likely have enough money to purchase next year in the spring. FWIW, all of Oxxford's fabrics are very, very easily on par with or better (better much more so than on par with) all of Earth's brands and tailors.


The Oxxford Crest is also my favorite of the Oxxford silhouettes, by far. I like it mainly because of the Brioni-like shoulders, which I think flatter me. I would encourage you to try one, with a smaller drop, as Alex suggested.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

thinman said:


> The Oxxford Crest is also my favorite of the Oxxford silhouettes, by far. I like it mainly because of the Brioni-like shoulders, which I think flatter me. I would encourage you to try one, with a smaller drop, as Alex suggested.


Great points. I, on the other hand, look like a triangle in such a cut, as I already have a 13-14 inch drop. For me, the more usual Oxxford cut is much better because of the quite natural shoulders, though I do have the waist taken in for some more shape.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> Mark, I'm not sure it's been established that there is a true quality drawback from Kiton's use of machines on the canvas. I spoke with my handmade expert at Neiman's who works with both Oxxford and Kiton and he says that Kiton feels the machine work on the lining offers more consistency and durability for the garment.
> 
> Clearly there are other areas where machine work has advantage. I believe even Oxxford uses machine sewing on trousers for instance.
> 
> ...


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Machine sewing does have certain benefits. One is regularity. Another is strength. Machine made stitches tend to be locked-in.


This is my point Mark so we are in agreement. Isn't it possible or even likely that Kiton said.."hmmm, if we machine sew here, we free up an hour to work on another part of the jacket with more handwork"?



> Generally, machine made suits have a flatness or stiffness, and such is caused by sewing "flat" without making adjustments for the curves.


Agreed, however we are talking linings only here. With Kiton you still get a proper collar and lapel roll since the rest of the operation is done by hand.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

son of brummell said:


> On one extreme of the scale is either a totally machine made suit. Machine made suits represent the vast, vast majority of all suits sold. A factory made suit, such as Hickey Freeman, is mostly machine made with some hand elements. However, a mostly handmade suit, such as Oxxford, Attolini, Davies, or Caraceni, would have machine sewing at the straight, long seams, such as the leg seams and the long seams of coat in the back.


Mark-

Construction of Attolini is the same as Kiton unless you are talking bespoke. You can see the machine padded collars on the website.

This is the only nit I have to pick with what you are saying. You assume and state that Borrelli and Attolini are different than Kiton which is a mistake. They are all, to about the same degree, hand finished rather than hand-made.

Artisan Fan-

It is not the lining, it is the canvassing. Two very different things. IIRC, Oxxford does the lining by machine as well.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> It is not the lining, it is the canvassing.


You are correct. This is what I meant to say.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> This is my point Mark so we are in agreement. Isn't it possible or even likely that Kiton said.."hmmm, if we machine sew here, we free up an hour to work on another part of the jacket with more handwork"?
> 
> I must respectfully disagree.
> 
> ...


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## wcp45 (Nov 15, 2003)

Re: the amount of handwork in Kiton and Oxxford--

Several years ago when I was at a Kiton trunk show I asked Ciro Paone's son about the amount of handwork in Oxxford v. Kiton. I commented that I had heard that Oxxford had more handwork. Without conceding the point, he said with a smile "It's not just the amount of handwork, it's the skill of the person doing the handwork. Come visit us, then visit Oxxford. You will see."

I did take him up on his offer to visit the Kiton facilities in Naples, but I haven't had the pleasure of visiting Oxxford's.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I continue to believe this is a Bentley versus Rolls comparison and we are arguing fine details like interior wood quality. 

Maybe we can all agree to disagree and let folks try out both and determine for themselves which is better.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

WCP,

Son??

Could you have met his nephew?


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> WCP,
> 
> Son??
> 
> Could you have met his nephew?


LOL, from what I remember at Kiton, everybody was his nephew, and they were all named Antonio.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

If I remember correctly, Antonio De Matteis (head tailor last I saw him)married into Ciro's family. Nice guy and sharp dresser as one would expect.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Antonio De Matteis is the nephew.
Very nice man, understated, well dressed.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> Mark, I'm not sure it's been established that there is a true quality drawback from Kiton's use of machines on the canvas. I spoke with my handmade expert at Neiman's who works with both Oxxford and Kiton and he says that Kiton feels the machine work on the lining offers more consistency and durability for the garment.


 I had pulled out of this debate because I was coming dangerously close to making actual comments about the maker which I prefer not to do. But sentences such as these really cause ire. With all due respect and sincere enjoyment of your deep interest in the subject of fine clothing, here's why:

It has been *well* established that there is an *overwhelming* quality difference between machine-padded and hand-padded canvasses. Research years of *expert* testimony by tailors here and on the London Lounge and you will have no question left in your mind about this subject. As a new member, you may be unsure. As a professional, I am not.

You *absolutely could not* have spoken with your "handmade expert" at Neiman's. There is no such thing. You are describing an extinct animal. "Experts" don't work for mass-marketers such as Neiman-Marcus. If you had said "handmade expert" at Herzfeld or Jay Kos or Harry Rosen - maybe. But some fellow with 27 minutes of training and a degree from FIT in fashion merchandising may know words which will impress you, but having made Stan Marcus's shirts for decades I can certainly attest that he ain't (wasn't) paying for "handmade" experts. He was paying for Sales Experts and, again with all due respect, you seem to have found yourself one.


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## wcp45 (Nov 15, 2003)

Ah, you're right. It was the nephew.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

So uh... Allen? Thanks again for taking the time to think of us and bring your camera to the factory for us, makes the forum fun for guys like me who prefer books with lots of pretty pictures and small words.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> So uh... Allen? Thanks again for taking the time to think of us and bring your camera to the factory for us, makes the forum fun for guys like me who prefer books with lots of pretty pictures and small words.


Thanks for reminding me about the pictures. There have been so many words in this thread I had already forgot about the pictures.

This may get up there with the black pants thread! But way short of the Vass thread which I thankfully bailed on while it was only on its second page.

Perry


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Chuck Franke said:


> So uh... Allen? Thanks again for taking the time to think of us and bring your camera to the factory


Next stop, Oxxford:icon_smile:

Sorry, am I the only one having fun here?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> It has been well established that there is an overwhelming quality difference between machine-padded and hand-padded canvasses. Research years of expert testimony by tailors here and on the London Lounge and you will have no question left in your mind about this subject. As a new member, you may be unsure. As a professional, I am not.


Well I'm always willing to learn more which is one reason I am here. Why not show me the threads where the difference is discussed so I can understand the differences?



> You absolutely could not have spoken with your "handmade expert" at Neiman's. There is no such thing. You are describing an extinct animal. "Experts" don't work for mass-marketers such as Neiman-Marcus. If you had said "handmade expert" at Herzfeld or Jay Kos or Harry Rosen - maybe. But some fellow with 27 minutes of training and a degree from FIT in fashion merchandising may know words which will impress you, but having made Stan Marcus's shirts for decades I can certainly attest that he ain't (wasn't) paying for "handmade" experts. He was paying for Sales Experts and, again with all due respect, you seem to have found yourself one.


Alex, I see your point but it's wrong for you to presume I would just go talk to some salesperson with minimal knowledge for this debate. The person I spoke with is a bit of a handmade expert. He has visited the factories of both Oxxford and Kiton and has some in-depth training in tailoring. His knowledge of the subject is actually quite good, well beyond that of a great salesperson. I've been to Jay Kos and Harry Rosen and I've never gotten the level of service and knowledge I receive from this gentlemen.

P.S. In the quote you reference originally, my guy was just conveying what he heard from Kiton, not rendering his own judgment.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> Well I'm always willing to learn more which is one reason I am here. Why not show me the threads where the difference is discussed so I can understand the differences?


 I don't keep an index of tailoring threads, just shirtmaking threads. However, the advanced search function is quite good.



Artisan Fan said:


> Alex, I see your point but it's wrong for you to presume I would just go talk to some salesperson with minimal knowledge for this debate. The person I spoke with is a bit of a handmade expert. He has visited the factories of both Oxxford and Kiton and has some in-depth training in tailoring. His knowledge of the subject is actually quite good, well beyond that of a great salesperson.


 You would need to have a bespoke tailor, one with no ties to the profits of the RTW/MTM business, explain to you why the manner in which they hold, sponge, press, curve, stretch, shrink, and beat the canvas while they're putting in those stitches makes such a difference in appearance over the life of the garment.



Artisan Fan said:


> I've been to Jay Kos and Harry Rosen and I've never gotten the level of service and knowledge I receive from this gentlemen.
> 
> 
> > Conceded ... with sadness at the state-of-affairs.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

AF,

There are 12 Harry Rosen stores across the country.
I only shop at the Montreal store on Peel street.
The service has been nothing short of stellar every time.
The bespoke tailor, who works exclusively for Rosen out of that store,
will come to the store (he is located across the street) for fittings or to deal with any touchy alteration issues. While I have never commissioned him myself, I have seen a great deal of his work and work always looks great.

The vast majority of sales staff in the vast majority of shops are of little use for finer details or issues.

The Rosen shop on Peel is an exception.

Now that Scott has been pilfered from Montreal and heads up the downtown Toronto flagship store, there is no reason to accept anything less at that location too.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I suspect that Alex is unfairly denigrating the level of knowledge of a long term Neiman's Men's Suit employee.

Their current organization is to designate a "product manager" type person (I suppose "expert" could be another descriptive term) that is responsible for each brand of clothing. That "you enter the description" person is responsible for all orders (with the buyer) from that line and hosts the annual visit by the factory rep.....Whom I have heard referred to as "GianLuca" for the Isaia "rep", or "Michael" for the Oxxford rep, etc. I believe that is the owner and president of their respective firms. 

We spend a bit of time each day on matters sartorial. Alex (Kabbaz), Chris (Despos), other professional Fora members and the average Neiman's or other high end Men's Clothing rep will spend 40-60 hours a week with his clothing. I think that it would be most difficult to have that exposure, responsibility and time in grade and not pick up a tremendous amount of knowledge about your trade. Particularly with an organization that is as active as Neiman's about running visits and trunk shows.

Now, I suppose it is easy to imagine that they don't know as much as a master tailor but I do expect most of the long term employees know quite a bit more than Alex states.

I was told yesterday that "Gianluca" will be here Sept 28th and my local Neiman's Isaia "Expert/Product Mgr/SalesPerson" would like to introduce him to me.

Having been fairly active lately buying from Neiman's through Chris in LV, Angelo in SF, and Richard in Scottsdale, I have found all to be knowledgeable long term employees with as much or more product knowledge as you might expect from any top producing long term sales employee of any industry. And I have found none that remind me of my local automobile dealers sales droids.

Perry


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Pkincy,

Some of this discussion has focus on the smallest of details, other in very broad terms.

I think that in the broad industry wide sense of the term,
I must agree with Alex.
We have all read hundreds, perhaps thousands of little anecdotes about horror shows and stupidities suffered in one shop or another.
Many sales assoc spend their life in a shop and learn little more than how to move cloth. A smaller portion do share our passion and excel.

I have almost preached,
shop for a sales associate before shopping for any cloth,
and when you find a good one, as you seem to have, keep him!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> You would need to have a bespoke tailor, one with no ties to the profits of the RTW/MTM business, explain to you why the manner in which they hold, sponge, press, curve, stretch, shrink, and beat the canvas while they're putting in those stitches makes such a difference in appearance over the life of the garment.


I plan to do just this. I spoke with Tom Mahon yesterday and we will probably see him in Atlanta in November (Jason Amesbury may join him as well, at least in NYC and possibly Atlanta if I can talk him into it ) I suggested we have dinner or lunch at his convenience and maybe discuss the tailoring business to expand my knowledge. I hope to keep doing these sorts of things to expand my knowledge of the craft.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

*Fabrics and cost spreads*

Tomasso wrote:

Next stop, Oxxford

~~~~

Not so quick young man!
And what of the fabrics spread?

I pondered this debate as I sat in traffic Friday.

One hour of work less here or there on a padded collar or lapel does not make up the bulk of the spread in costs between an Oxxford at $2500 and a Kiton at $5000.

Kiton is not the type of company that would sit down and calculate "if we shave 1 hour of labor" we can make X dollars more. I just don't believe it after my experiences with them. Their production runs too small to make it worth while. If they felt they must have that, they would have it and need be, they would charge more, and as we see, they would get it!

Deciding it required further research, I popped into my local fabric dealer to get a better grip on the spread in fabric costs.

Like many of the elders here, 
in posting terms, not age  ,
have done in the past, he scoffed at my first few questions about cost spreads between super 110s / 120s that Oxxford seems best known for and the super 150 /180s and up that Kiton is known for.

The old Italian gentleman pulled out rolls of fabric and spread open 4 or 5 of them. All were selected from a collection of Super 120s fabrics from different mills. The variations were wide and as we felt the cloth and he described the differences, I liked one very much and another I could certainly live without.

He started quotes prices only after speaking about weaving styles and different dieing processes. The cost on these Super 120s ranged from 42 dollars a yard, 70 dollars and on upwards to just over 90 dollars a yard!

When I asked about 180s, 210s and the likes of the cloth on Kiton's wares, he scoffed again, and said forget about it.
Too expensive, off the scale. 
He does not stocks the likes of them, 
or even as close as he could possibly get to the likes of them.

We as outsiders will never know and can only begin to speculate at the cost involved for Kiton to buy out shares in sheep, to buy entire runs and take options on years worth of production of wool, but clearly that adds a large element of expense that most house do not have to deal with.

Pondering the potential cost spreads, 
if Oxxford were to buy this man's very best 120s (which of course they source directly for less, but lets play in a hypothetical world for a moment) how many times more must the cost be that are faced by Kiton for 180s? Double at least?
Even the fabric vendor could not guess as he gestured his hand upwards in the air repeatedly.

The discussion applies only to suitings.
My understanding, and please correct me Alex,
but I believe that you offer shirt fabrics in excess of what I see on Kiton shirts. 
I am purely speaking suits and sport jackets.

And what is the cost of exclusivity?

The one aspect of this debate all can agree on, that Kiton offers fabric choices and patterns that few, if any, can offer.

Deciding it required further research still, 
I popped into my local Luciano Barbera shop, sadly, as there is no Oxxford shop here, it was then to the Kiton dealer.

There on the rack is a fall cashmere sports jacket,
this has to be one of the most beautiful jackets I have ever seen in my life. As I feel the cashmere on a Zegna Couture and then another Kiton, coming back to this one jacket, it out does both by a long shot.

I flip the tag to take a glance, it retails for 5k.
Is 5k for a single sports jacket insane?
Bloody right it is.

I am certain Chris D or tailors of that level, could work magic with a budget of 5k per jacket.

But I keep looking at the soft lines, the pattern is perfect, the fabric, the very finest! Everything is perfect, and there is only one in the store.

There will be no more.

One man will walk the streets of Montreal in a such a beautiful piece and that comes with a price tag too!

5K

School tuition, bus fees and supplies etc are due in one month.

That man won't be me!

But that jacket is a work of art, nothing short of art.

It will sell at that price, I have no doubt.
And that is the price of excellence and exclusivity all wrapped in one in the niche market Kiton has created for itself.

I am willing to bet the man who purchases that jacket does not know what bespoke is, does not have the interest in the time bespoke would take and will be perfectly content for a long time to come.

I would be, with such a beautiful piece.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Kiton is not the type of company that would sit down and calculate "if we shave 1 hour of labor" we can make X dollars more. I just don't believe it after my experiences with them. Their production runs too small to make it worth while. If they felt they must have that, they would have it and need be, they would charge more, and as we see, they would get it!


I agree which is why is speculated that Kiton may be making some value judgments on quality in the collar canvas in favor of something else.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

zegnamtl said:


> Kiton is not the type of company that would sit down and calculate "if we shave 1 hour of labor" we can make X dollars more. I just don't believe it after my experiences with them. Their production runs too small to make it worth while. If they felt they must have that, they would have it and need be, they would charge more, and as we see, they would get it!


Yes, but there are other reasons having nothing whatever to do with the relative quality or cost of hand-sewn collars and hand-padded lapels versus machine-sewn and machine-padded ones why Kiton might choose to use machines rather than hands to do this work.


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

*Help us non-experts!*



jcusey said:


> Yes, but there are other reasons having nothing whatever to do with the relative quality or cost of hand-sewn collars and hand-padded lapels versus machine-sewn and machine-padded ones why Kiton might choose to use machines rather than hands to do this work.


Hello jcusey, and what might some of those reasons be?

Thanks!


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

rnoldh said:


> Hello jcusey, and what might some of those reasons be?
> 
> Thanks!


Inability to find trained tailors to perform the task and necessity to reduce production times to fulfill orders in a timely manner are two. I have no idea whether either would apply to Kiton.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

To compare cost structures I would start with # of employees to output. I have no solid facts but just want to speculate. Lets say Oxxford has 250 employees and is producing 12,000 suits per year. Lets say Kiton employs 250 and produces 5000 suits per year. Big difference. Like I said, I do not know how many work at either factory or how big there production is, but I imagine a scenario would run something along these lines since it is all about labor. 

Interesting info about cloth. Purchasing cloth for each maker is different, mostly tied to where each is located. Kiton has a unique approach by involving themselves down to the ultimate source, the sheep. Oxxford has to deal with the ridiculously expensive duties of importing cloth into the US. Both makers have a major advantage of scale over small shops like myself that order 4 yards of cloth at a time. 

In defense of Kiton I would not conclude they machine pad every collar by one photo. Sort of circumstantial evidence imo. As I have said on other posts, I ran accross a Kiton garment that was entirely fused. But that is not typical of their line, more of an anomaly. It was created to be a specific model, not representing their main line. I might also add that any literature Kiton produce 5 yearsa ago may not be accurate 5 years later. Production techniques evolve and change as needed.

Kiton technicians have to be very astute and I’m sure much research and debate goes into each manufacturing process. I don’t think their criteria for collar construction is to save time as much as how to achieve the look and feel they want. Judging the garment they make, if they think machine padding is not compromising quality, there may be something to their technique. I went back to the photo and think this is a very specific stitch from a very specialized machine. 
I think the analysis runs more along the lines of cost versus improved quality. Random numbers. Hand padding costs $50.00, machine 5.00. If the increase of quality is less than 50%, then lets do it by machine, as long as it still feels and looks like what we want.
I see magazine photos of tailors and their suits from around the world and see several of the top tailors also using machine padding on their collars.

My personal objection to the machine padding on the collar is this.The sewing of the collar linen to the melton appears to be made on rolls and after sewing the two pieces together the individual collars are cut out. My problem is that the stitch is cut at the edge and is not secured. I think this comproimises longevity and substance. maybe Kiton has another prouction step to address this . I do not know. 

Regarding hand work. OXXford does it in spades but I don’t think some of it contributes to the fit or feel of the suit, which to me are the main reasons to buy any brand. The interior bellows on the the lower jacket pockets is sewn to the body of the jacket by hand. I am impressed by how delicate these stitches are, but I don’t attribute any value to it. They say if you carry anything in your pocket it will expand inward rather than outward but the jacket is against the body, I don’t see it. Has anyone purchased OXXford for this benefit? Has any maker cared to copy this?
The partial lining calls for the side and center back seam edges to be turned and sewn down by hand. To me this makes the seam edges heavier and more prone to leave impressions on the outside of the cloth. It also limits the amounts of oulet to leave in a jacket. I would rather have flat seams and additional outlets and the additional support and body lining provides. I do like the partial lining on some summer jackets in some cloths but I would not do all my jackets like this. Just my opinion.

I think Kiton and OXXford have the same weakness and that is styling. Again, that is my opinion, but then, I am the world’s leading expert about my opinion.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

I just love hearing Chris talk about tailoring.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> If the increase of quality is less than 50%, then lets do it by machine, as long as it still feels and looks like what we want.


Yes, and maybe Kiton like the extra durability and consistency of that process as well.



> I have no idea whether either would apply to Kiton.


I doubt it as they have 180+ tailors.



> I think Kiton and OXXford have the same weakness and that is styling.


I find it satisfying Chris that you find their weakness to be styling...it seems to imply that you find their construction pretty good. In any event I like the styling of Kiton a lot. It's very Neopolitan and they are some stylish citizenry.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Some well stated points by Chris Despos and others.

The self-published book that I referred to says that Kiton makes about 15,000 suits a year.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I find it satisfying Chris that you find their weakness to be styling...it seems to imply that you find their construction pretty good. In any event I like the styling of Kiton a lot. It's very Neopolitan and they are some stylish citizenry.


I am not a fan of soft construction. Kiton is soft but lacks substance and I think there can exist the perfect combination of softness with substance. I also think every jacket needs shape. Not just at the waist. I look at the shape of the shoulder, the lapel, sleeves, chest, waist, skirt. I don't find this to my liking in either brand.
Kiton may have a variety of silhouettes that I may not be aware of. I see them at Neimans or Korshak. I few of my clients previously wore Kiton.
Oxxford has many styles I have not seen, so I may be generalizing somewhat.
From the exposure I have received from this forum I have seen more Neopolitan styling than ever before. It is influencing me quite a bit and has challenged me to experiment.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I like soft construction as it can be very comfortable but still looks great. There seem to be degrees of softness though. Some Armani is very soft but the Kiton shoulder has a bit more feel and weight. I'm probably not describing it right.

Chris, I wonder if your suits cost as much as Kiton or are they less expensive? Assuming 150s fabric to do apples to apples....just curious about the value equation.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Chris Despos said:


> The interior bellows on the the lower jacket pockets .... Has any maker cared to copy this?


It's patented:icon_smile_wink:


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## iyorito (Aug 18, 2005)

Kiton receives some provincial tax break (NAPOLI) for employing large number of people. I am not sure about the exact number, but they do employ quite a large number of workers.

About the machine sewn lapels, to me it is a huge turn off but even some famous tailors in Naples use machine unless if you specifically ask them to do so by hand. It's sad.


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## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

What a fascinating thread!!!



> I was reluctant to bring this up but this is where I think Oxxford has its biggest weakness, a weak fabric selection/quality


I don't know about that&#8230; At every store I've ever been to, the largest selection of swatches for MTM suits always belongs to Oxxford. Also, Kiton's fabrics may be "finer" on average, but more often than not they are too dang fragile. This is one of the reasons I stopped wearing Kiton suits, I wasn't getting good wear out of them. I prefer Oxxford's fabrics personally.



> Perhaps and over simplification, but my understanding is that Kiton will deal directly with the sheep herders that produce the best wools in the world. They will buy out the entire production, sometimes they will take options on the crop for years to come!
> On one occasion, they bought shares in the actual sheep!
> 
> Then they take the finest of these wools to their top mills (un named) and have it produced to their specs, hence the fabric I have seen, end bolts and swatches, bear no name other than the Kiton name.
> ...


You will hear this same story from any number of houses. Especially from Zegna and Loro Piana, who I tend to believe on the subject.



> Construction of Attolini is the same as Kiton unless you are talking bespoke. You can see the machine padded collars on the website


True that - I even discovered that the lapel on one of my Attolini's was fused!! Could have had something to do with the fabric used in that jacket, but it shocked me nonetheless. I've got a Kiton garment that is fused too, though it is not a suit. It'sort of a casual overcoat with many handsewn details, but the front is fused. I'm in agreement with those here who say that at the prices people pay for Kiton, or Brioni, or Attolini etc., the lapels and collars really ought to be hand padded.



> I went back to the photo and think this is a very specific stitch from a very specialized machine.


As the story goes, the machine that pads the lapels on Kiton jackets was developed by Cesare Attolini. See this article:

(fourth paragraph up from the bottom)



> Regarding hand work. OXXford does it in spades but I don't think some of it contributes to the fit or feel of the suit, which to me are the main reasons to buy any brand





> I think Kiton and OXXford have the same weakness and that is styling.





> I am not a fan of soft construction. Kiton is soft but lacks substance and I think there can exist the perfect combination of softness with substance. I also think every jacket needs shape. Not just at the waist. I look at the shape of the shoulder, the lapel, sleeves, chest, waist, skirt. I don't find this to my liking in either brand.





> Kiton may have a variety of silhouettes that I may not be aware of. I see them at Neimans or Korshak.


Fascinating statements all, especially as they agree with my own viewpoint : ) I think Oxxford is technically the most handmade by far in terms of sheer number of hand stitches that go into a garment. On the other hand, the quality of the visible stitching and detailing (finishing) is finer on a Kiton or most any high end Italian brand. This probably is more of an issue of styling/tradition than it is of skill though, especially when it comes to the buttonholes. Oxxford I find to be too stiff and structured for my taste, both in terms of cut and the feel of the jacket. They have yet to make a model that looks good on me (this is not so much a shortcoming as it is a function of my very large shoulders.) Kiton on the other hand is so soft that it tends to sag when worn, especially when cut from their super-delicate fabrics. In addition 95% of the models sold on the US market lack any real shape, they are very rectangular. This is not an accident - it is obviously what sells here. They produce some lovely cuts for the Euro market.

Edit, sorry Chris! I basically repeated everything you said and didn't phrase itnearlyas well. Our opinions on the subject are certainly in sync 



> The self-published book that I referred to says that Kiton makes about 15,000 suits a year


I would say at least that many, probably a lot more. I would suspect that Kiton's production is quite a bit larger than Oxxford's.

Anways, this is all such an apples to oranges discussion. These are all very fine suits. Base your purchase on what is most important - the cut, the silhouette.. Specifically, how the jacket looks on you. That is what's most important. Better yet, commission your suit from a top bespoke maker. That would be best of all.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> On the other hand, the quality of the visible stitching and detailing (finishing) is finer on a Kiton or most any high end Italian brand.
> This probably is more of an issue of styling/tradition than it is of skill though, especially when it comes to the buttonholes.


I find this to be the weakness of Oxxford. The buttonholes are not near the caliber of the finess and quality of my Kiton and Brioni suits.



> This is one of the reasons I stopped wearing Kiton suits, I wasn't getting good wear out of them.


I think it depends on the fabric fineness. With a 14 Micron you do get some delicateness. but the 150s suits from Kiton I have are very durable and on par with my Oxxford suits. I have two 14 Micron suits and since I wear them for only important meetings, they hold quite well. I probably get the most compliments in these suits.



> They produce some lovely cuts for the Euro market.


You can MTM any cut you want with Kiton. It's entirely up to you.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm not sure regarding the exact numbers, but let's assume 15,000 suits and Kiton has 200 tailors, that would be 75 suits per person per year. That allows for significant handwork.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

A.Harris wrote:

"What a fascinating thread!!!"

I would agree, how ever the bulk of my fascination comes from the fact people seem to need to establish an absolute.

Rather like telling an Olmpic sprinter that Gold is great,
and silver and bronze are failures.

~~~~
A.Harris wrote:
Perhaps and over simplification, but my understanding is that Kiton will deal directly with the sheep herders that produce the best wools in the world. They will buy out the entire production, sometimes they will take options on the crop for years to come!
On one occasion, they bought shares in the actual sheep!...............


You will hear this same story from any number of houses. Especially from Zegna and Loro Piana, who I tend to believe on the subject. 


I would certainly imagine we hear the same form Zegna and LP,
they are, first and foremost, fabric weavers! 
Their roots are, and the bulk of the business still derives from, being fabric makers.


~~~
A.Harris wrote:
I’ve got a Kiton garment that is fused too, though it is not a suit. It’sort of a casual overcoat with many hand sewn details, but the front is fused. 

I did not visit production of everything, I do not wear very much casual wear and have no interest in jeans or sports wear.
But I would love to see a photograph of the guts of that jacket if the occasion ever arises.


~~~~

Quote:
I went back to the photo and think this is a very specific stitch from a very specialized machine.

As the story goes, the machine that pads the lapels on Kiton jackets was developed by Cesare Attolini. See this article: 

(fourth paragraph up from the bottom) 

As the tailor said, perhaps it is not the beef but how the chef tenderizes the beef that counts most.

~~~~~~~~~

A.Harris wrote:

Fascinating statements all, especially as they agree with my own viewpoint : ) I think Oxxford is technically the most handmade by far in terms of sheer number of hand stitches that go into a garment. On the other hand, the quality of the visible stitching and detailing (finishing) is finer on a Kiton or most any high end Italian brand. 

Agreed.


~~~~~~
A.Harris wrote:

This probably is more of an issue of styling/tradition than it is of skill though, especially when it comes to the buttonholes. Oxxford I find to be too stiff and structured.......

The garments vary with the cultures, and the cultural influences.
America is a far more structured society than that found in Naples,
which to a large degree, is a distinct society within Italy.
Being drawn to or by, one or the other house's styles based on one's own cultural influence is understandable.


~~~~~~
A.Harris wrote:

Anways, this is all such an apples to oranges discussion. 
These are all very fine suits. 


Agreed.
That is an absolute.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I like soft construction as it can be very comfortable but still looks great. There seem to be degrees of softness though. Some Armani is very soft but the Kiton shoulder has a bit more feel and weight. I'm probably not describing it right.


Like picking a mattress. Most want soft but with support. Perfect shoulder is soft but holds up. It's all about the quality of the components of the suit.

[/QUOTE]Chris, I wonder if your suits cost as much as Kiton or are they less expensive? Assuming 150s fabric to do apples to apples....just curious about the value equation.[/QUOTE]

I run more than OXXford and less than Kiton on opening price. Prices for 150's vary considerably from mill to mill. As diverse as costs among suit makers. I might be just as high as Kiton if the cloth is from the upper tier.

I find the manner in which a cloth wears to be as much about the wearer as the cloth. Some men are hard on clothes and some not. I see suits 5 years old that look like new and some 6 months old that look 5 years old.

Thank you A.Harris for the Departures link. Worth reading.
It points out that each makers suit is their own. Each suit derived from, and executing a point of view of the designer. These men were the visionaries of the trade. I think they were ingenious to evaluate the tailoring processes and glean from technology to create something new and original, and yet retaining the essence of hand tailoring. They really thought out of the box. Some tailoring houses get bogged down in tradition and don't evaluate what they do or make and ask if their suit is apropos with the needs of the client. I imagine Rubinacci, Attolini and Paone are in a league of their own and would look at the big houses of today, lets say Armani, and say he has sold out. Relying totally on technology and marketing to build a brand. Kiton and OXXford are not pandering to the masses, but continue making the suits they wish to make, with hours and hours of hand labor. This is very unique in this day and age of mass production and distribution. These makers are loyal to maintaining an artisanal approach to mens clothing and I applaud them.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

> I run more than OXXford and less than Kiton on opening price. Prices for 150's vary considerably from mill to mill. As diverse as costs among suit makers. I might be just as high as Kiton if the cloth is from the upper tier


Not Apples to Apples there Chris. That would be comparing the OTR Kiton to a bespoke Despos where you did the fitting and cutting custom. If you want Apples to Apples it is Despos versus the bespoke option from Kiton which runs more like 20K I think.

For the price on one Kiton K-suit I think Chris would make you 3 suits of darn near any fabric out there.

FWIW most of the guys I know who use Chris most respect his ability to get the fit right and get it right after very few fittings. (as many as you need, you just won't need many)

At the end of the day the goal is to get a suit you love and that you look & feel great in and to be happy with your purchase. ....I think that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle around here.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I imagine Rubinacci, Attolini and Paone are in a league of their own and would look at the big houses of today, lets say Armani, and say he has sold out.


Maybe that's because he HAS sold out. 



> This is very unique in this day and age of mass production and distribution. These makers are loyal to maintaining an artisanal approach to mens clothing and I applaud them.


I applaud them as well and I will continue to support the, as I nan.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> Maybe that's because he HAS sold out.


Did Armani ever have anything to sell out? I mean, he's always been simply a fashion designer, no? He didn't start out as a designer/purveyor of hand-tailored men's clothing only to wind up as just another "name brand" fashion house with its wares being made wherever and by whatever means, did he? That would be selling out.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't know why somebody would buy otr or m2m if it is the same price as bespoke? 

With bespoke you get so much more. With bespoke you can have reasonable adjustments at the 1st fitting so the garments fit you like art instead of slightly off in appearance. With bespoke you also get the necessary fittings that fine tunes the garments way better than after it is made and then taking it to a non-bespoke "tailor" for "correct adjustments". Only bespoke shapes the garments around the body - nobody else does, just bespoke.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

He's certainly sold out in terms of quality versus the marketing hype. His $2K Le Collezioni suits exhibit horrible construction. No wonder Zegna is taking share.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I don't know why somebody would buy otr or m2m if it is the same price as bespoke?


I can think of a variety of reasons:
1. Lack of knowledge about bespoke.
2. Interest in certain fabrics.
3. Loyalty to certain stores or salespeople.
4. Ability to wear (not perfect but good enough) an off the rack size.
5. Desire to flaunt certain labels.


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

Can anyone point me to Oxxford's(bellows pocket, one-piece trouser back) or Ike Behar's(diamond-quilted collar stand) patents at the USPTO database? I searched but found nothing.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> I can think of a variety of reasons:
> 1. Lack of knowledge about bespoke.
> 2. Interest in certain fabrics.
> 3. Loyalty to certain stores or salespeople.
> ...


6. Guys with more money than time who need to dress well and don't like to shop, don't like to wait and don't really give a crap about the details.

Sadly, not every man looks at trying on clothes as the best and most enjoyable reason for disrobing.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> 6. Guys with more money than time who need to dress well and don't like to shop, don't like to wait and don't really give a crap about the details.


So true.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Chris wrote:
Interesting info about cloth.... 
Kiton has a unique approach by involving themselves down to the ultimate source..... Oxxford has to deal with the ridiculously expensive duties of importing cloth into the US. 


Chris, I am not too sure how badly Oxxford gets hit with duty on cloth. My very rudimentary understanding of the US tariffs is that they kick in once a certain number of sq yards have been imported. Therefor, it is possible that little or no duties come into play.

This data is a few years old, Hickey Freeman was requesting an increase in the quota amount that could be imported duty free.

“Of the more than four million square meters of the finer worsted wool fabric imports (annualized), only 37 percent is subject to tariff rate quota duty-rates. Of the more than 10.5 million square meters of coarser worsted wool fabric imports (annualized), only 24 percent is subject to tariff rate quota duty-rates.”

18.5 microns is defined as the threshold for finer or coarser.
Sourceepartment of Commerce, International Trade Administration.

Italy too has a reputation for being heavy handed with duties, but just as American makers have managed some leeway in the system, I would wager so has Kiton and the likes.

~~~~

Chris wrote:
Both makers have a major advantage of scale over small shops like myself that order 4 yards of cloth at a time. 


Very true, not only in cost, but in ability to have exclusive fabrics woven.
The sports jacket I fell in love with the day,
I know that the fabric is one of the “limited run” fabrics and that means there is only enough fabric made of that exact type and pattern to produce:

27 sport jackets
0r
17 suits

One of the allures of Kiton to the type of man who can walk in and say wow, nice jacket, here is 5k,
is that he knows he will not be sitting somewhere and have 6 other men wearing the same or very similar jacket.

27 world wide! 

~~~~
Chris wrote:
In defense of Kiton I would not conclude they machine pad every collar by one photo. Sort of circumstantial evidence imo. As I have said on other posts, I ran across a Kiton garment that was entirely fused. But that is not typical of their line, more of an anomaly. It was created to be a specific model, not representing their main line. 


Chris, 
Did you shoot any pictures?
Could this have been a faked Kiton that someone brought you for alterations?


~~~~
Chris wrote:
I don’t think their criteria for collar construction is to save time as much as how to achieve the look and feel they want. Judging the garment they make, if they think machine padding is not compromising quality, there may be something to their technique. I went back to the photo and think this is a very specific stitch from a very specialized machine........I see magazine photos of tailors and their suits from around the world and see several of the top tailors also using machine padding on their collars...


I agree, their logic is unclear to us perhaps,
if they felt they needed hand padding, they would have it.

~~~~
Chris wrote:
My personal objection to the machine padding on the collar is this.The sewing of the collar linen to the melton appears to be made on rolls and after sewing the two pieces together the individual collars are cut out. My problem is that the stitch is cut at the edge and is not secured. I think this comproimises longevity and substance. maybe Kiton has another production step to address this . 
I do not know. 


If I understand you correctly, 
and I understand what I saw correctly, they do. 
But I am very, very, very far from being a tailor!
So perhaps when we meet we can discuss.


~~~~

Chris wrote:
I do like the partial lining on some summer jackets in some cloths but I would not do all my jackets like this. Just my opinion.


More and more I am leaning this way too.
I picked up a very light linen Samuelsohn this year, that is 3/4 lined, almost a shirt in its feel. 
It is very beautiful, if you have not looked at Samuelsohn in the last two years, you basically do not know the company anymore.
They have changed significantly, upwards!
Dollar for dollar, that Samuelsohn is a hell of a lot smarter buy than a Kiton. It is a beautiful piece.
But I agree that 3/4 lining seems to go well with a certain look and feel and fully lined with another.

~~~~


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Chris Despos said:


> Interesting info about cloth. Purchasing cloth for each maker is different, mostly tied to where each is located. Kiton has a unique approach by involving themselves down to the ultimate source, the sheep. Oxxford has to deal with the ridiculously expensive duties of importing cloth into the US. Both makers have a major advantage of scale over small shops like myself that order 4 yards of cloth at a time.
> 
> In defense of Kiton I would not conclude they machine pad every collar by one photo. Sort of circumstantial evidence imo.
> 
> ...


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> A.Harris wrote:
> 
> "What a fascinating thread!!!"
> 
> ...


Haha! I've been thinking pretty much the exact same thing as I've been reading this!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The Kiton books has mostly very fine cloths, and it probably has the highest percentage of superfines.


One issue I have with the Oxxford discussion is this idea that Kiton suits are not durable for wearing. In my experience that is simply not the case unless you are talking Super 180s or higher. I read through some older Robb Reports last night and one issue noted that Oxxford was the first to offer the Scabal Super 200s fabric. So my point is this: *durability is really more based on the fabric fineness* at this high level of Kiton or Oxxford construction.

Both makers use fine fabrics but I do believe one reason that Kiton is more expensive is that most clients of the firm are looking at the luxury fabrics. I spoke with some Oxxford sales staff here in Atlanta and they feel this is true since Oxxford appeals to a more traditional, CEO type client who has less desire to have the fine fabrics, relatively speaking. If you look at the Oxxford swatch books and compare them to those of Kiton, there is definitely more luxury fabric from Kiton and a broader selection as well.

Mark, look at the buttonholes on your Oxxford suit. I examined mine over the weekend with a magnifying glass and I looked at new suits at Neiman Marcus from the brand. The buttonhole stitches are much bulkier and further apart than the fine thread, small gap needlework of Kiton. I wonder if that is because the tailoring tradition produces more tailors of skill in Naples than that of Chicago.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

WA said:


> I don't know why somebody would buy otr or m2m if it is the same price as bespoke?
> 
> With bespoke you get so much more. With bespoke you can have reasonable adjustments at the 1st fitting so the garments fit you like art instead of slightly off in appearance. With bespoke you also get the necessary fittings that fine tunes the garments way better than after it is made and then taking it to a non-bespoke "tailor" for "correct adjustments". Only bespoke shapes the garments around the body - nobody else does, just bespoke.


In addition to the reasons listed, I could understand why someone would go for a Kiton MTM. It seems as though it is rather difficult to find even a bespoke maker proficient at making such a soft shoulder.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I would agree, how ever the bulk of my fascination comes from the fact people seem to need to establish an absolute.


I don't see any need to establish an absolute. Like we have said many times there are any number of great tailors and tailoring houses. We are arguing here about Rolls vs. Bentley details.


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

I would like to know more about duties. I have always been told that duties were as high as 38 to 42% for piece goods that I would buy from a cloth merchant. Does this not apply to those that are importing mass quantities? Or is my info outdated?

I want to respond to other questions here but I have to go to work.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

.....


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

Chris Despos said:


> I would like to know more about duties. I have always been told that duties were as high as 38 to 42% for piece goods that I would buy from a cloth merchant. Does this not apply to those that are importing mass quantities? Or is my info outdated?
> 
> I want to respond to other questions here but I have to go to work.


Chris,

Duties can go either way. For example sometimes fabrics that are precut can have zero duties while rolls of fabric might have a 25% duty for example.

Commercial importing of fabrics generally requires a formal entry even for one yard of silk or wool.

It is not that complicated once you spend an afternoon going over the basics. The UPS and FedEx types do make mistakes also, so you have to doublecheck their work.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Chris wrote:
I would like to know more about duties. I have always been told that duties were as high as 38 to 42% for piece goods that I would buy from a cloth merchant. Does this not apply to those that are importing mass quantities? Or is my info outdated?

I want to respond to other questions here but I have to go to work.

~~~~~

The quick answer is that what your fabric broker is telling you is not excatly true.

A few years back Hickey Freeman and a few others were asking for a quota increase of 2.5 million yards of course fabric and 1 million yards in fine fabric. I would think that the largest of players are doing fairly well in the duty game and the smaller players not so much so.

From what I understand, it is an annual volume game and the big houses bring in their goods at the very beginning of said calender year to take advantage of being within that quota allowance.

These types of players (or the largest of fabric brokers for that matter) are not relying on the likes of UPS or FedEx for their customs declarations. Small artisans like David, yourself, Alex K if they are importing directly could certainly be at the mercy of a civil servant at customs or a FedEx broker.

Edit: Chris I can send you some PDF files on duty that will get you started on the subject.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Chuck wrote:

6. Guys with more money than time who need to dress well and don't like to shop, don't like to wait and don't really give a crap about the details.


~~~~

So true!
My youngest and I were in a shop in NYC to buy some socks,
in the time it took me to pick out two pairs,
a man and his wife came in and bought a cashmere winter coat and two sports jacket and left. 12 minutes, maybe!
The purchase was well beyond my total annual expenditures.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

On the issue of duties:

There is a bit of a shell game involved in duties unless the situation has changed much which I doubt.

About 5-7 years I spoke to a leading custom clothier who featured about 10 new cloths each season. The cloths were made in England and Italy to his design and specifications. He indicated that the cloths first had to pass through Canada, and then they would be shipped to his shop. There was no duty on the export from Canada to USA. I believe that this was due to NAFTA. Similarly, I believe that there was either no duty or a limited duty on the export from Europe to Canada. Therefore, this protracted method of shipping proved economical.

Tom James with the techical assistance of Holland & Sherry built a new cloth mill in Chile. One reason is that pursuant to a trade treaty there are no duties on the cloth imported into the USA. Another reason is that Chile has an artisan culture where a mill could be created.

Loro Piana found another way to skin the cat. It set-up a mill in Conn., therefore, this USA cloth would have no duty. 

I recall reading an article a few years ago that the USA manufacturers had the import duties on the European cloths that they ordered which added another cost factor to their product. In comparison, their competitors in Canada did not have the duties on the cloths from Europe, and in turn, the Canadians were able to sell and export to the USA their finished clothes without duties. Therefore, our Canadian friends were able to obtain a cost advantage which the American manufacturers were complaining about.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Mark S. said:


> IMO I feel that Oxxford is superior because the handwork makes a better and more comfortable fit that conforms better to the body.


And see that's where a discussion like this breaks down into the subjective. Mark (and I) have a build that is going to be more comfortable in Oxxford than in Kiton and naturally if there is nothing out there as comfortable then a particular brand will be a favorite.

...and at the end of the current diet I am on Kiton will likely fit me better than it does currently.

Unless you are talking about bespoke, saying that one brand fits better than another is entirely subjective. Fits who better? Me or one of those 120 Prada models who are built like your 8 year old sister????


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

The US harmonized tariff schedule, somewhat tedious reading:
https://www.usitc.gov/tata/hts/bychapter/index.htm


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Mark,

Very much like in the US,
Canada has a duty system for fabrics made outside of Can or NAFTA areas.
Their are quotas and allowances depending on how much and what percent the fabric is made of what and what percentage of the garment will be finished in Canada and on and on until you give up and get a importation lawyer to handle it for you!

In the US, importers can file a claim at the end of the calender year that may allow up to 1/3 of the duties paid to be refunded.

When a CDN imports, they must pay the taxes and duties just like a US house. However, once finished, the good are free to travel across the border under NAFTA, as are US good free to come north.

There is nothing in NAFTA that allows an advantage on importing raw goods from a third party nation.

Very much like in the US,
Canadian mills, have been devastated in recent years.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Fits who better? Me or one of those 120 Prada models who are built like your 8 year old sister????


Funny stuff. I see some of the Dries Van Noten, Gucci and Prada ads and think to myself: "what American man has a butt skinny enough to fit into that?"

With respect to my situation, as the comedian once said, "that train has sailed."


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Artisan Fan said:


> Funny stuff. I see some of the Dries Van Noten, Gucci and Prada ads and think to myself: "what American man has a butt skinny enough to fit into that?"
> 
> With respect to my situation, as the comedian once said, "that train has sailed."


Oh those butts are fine - I have 4 of them personally. I believe the technical term for that is 'nary ass' in Georgia.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Chuck Franke said:


> Oh those butts are fine - I have 4 of them personally. I believe the technical term for that is 'nary ass' in Georgia.


Yeah, I'd have to get two pair of pants with each suit--one for each cheek.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I always tell people that I sought to get "older and wiser" but unfortunately I actually got "older and wider".


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## thinman (Jan 21, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I can think of a variety of reasons:
> 1. Lack of knowledge about bespoke.
> 2. Interest in certain fabrics.
> 3. Loyalty to certain stores or salespeople.
> ...


Lack of access to bespoke. Those of us who are geographically challenged can't always make it to NYC or London for fittings.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Lack of access to bespoke. Those of us who are geographically challenged can't always make it to NYC or London for fittings.


Excellent point. Only recently have we secured access here in Atlanta and it's a very big, wealthy demograpic.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> Excellent point. Only recently have we secured access here in Atlanta and it's a very big, wealthy demograpic.


Full of well....oh nevermind.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Full of well....


Bad dressers?

Khakis and golf shirts?



Present company excepted, of course. Seriously though, in some areas in Atlanta business, dark brown shoes are too "forward".


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Duties have so much to do with politics and lobbist that the small person gets left out. After all, you have to pay the lobbist a few million.

Another subject- it isn't always how much hand sewing there is, but how good the hand sewing is. 

Pad-stitching the collar isn't everything there is to hand sewing the collar - there is also putting it on the coat/jacket.

In this day and age there are a lot of rich people who don't know there is a difference between off the rack and m2m and true tailored. I'm never impressed by a rich person who squanders his money. And I'm sure not every bespoke tailor is worth his salt, not to mention a lack of them.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> Bad dressers?
> 
> Khakis and golf shirts?
> 
> ...


22 inch rims, sport jerseys, nascar hats, and bolo ties...to name but a few.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> nascar hats


Especially for ole #3. 

I also like the jeans that are so baggy & low you wonder how the kids at Lenox can even walk.

And if I never see a 4 button suit on an athlete again, it will be too soon.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Artisan Fan said:


> Mark, look at the buttonholes on your Oxxford suit. I examined mine over the weekend with a magnifying glass and I looked at new suits at Neiman Marcus from the brand. The buttonhole stitches are much bulkier and further apart than the fine thread, small gap needlework of Kiton. I wonder if that is because the tailoring tradition produces more tailors of skill in Naples than that of Chicago.


The Oxxford buttonholes on the coat front are double sided. The other buttonholes (lapel and trouser) are single sided. In essence the front and back of the double sided buttonholes are constructed in the same manner. In effect, there is the full finishing of two buttonholes. In comparison, the vast majority of buttonholes, both hand and machine made, are single sided. I believe that Kiton is single sided.

The double sided buttonhole is an Oxxford signature. The rationale is that one sided buttonholes tend to fray, and the double sided one is stronger. I agree. Another reason is aesthetic. An analogy to the Oxxford buttonhole is the Borrelli button.

Some people dislike the Oxxford buttonhole because it "jumps out at you." I know of some people who have single sided buttonholes made on their Oxxfords.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Bad dressers?
> 
> Khakis and golf shirts?


Oh, it's like that everywhere.



Artisan Fan said:


> I also like the jeans that are so baggy & low you wonder how the kids at Lenox can even walk.


I once saw some young punk swaggering around like this at the mall (I think). He went to go up some stairs, and by about the second step, his jeans were racing to his knees. Instead of stopping and hiking them up, the numb nut thought he'd call less attention to himself by just spreading his legs as he walked up to prevent any further slippage. He was moderately successful...in the slippage prevention, not in salvaging much grace.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Teacher said:


> I once saw some young punk swaggering around like this at the mall (I think). He went to go up some stairs, and by about the second step, his jeans were racing to his knees. Instead of stopping and hiking them up, the numb nut thought he'd call less attention to himself by just spreading his legs as he walked up to prevent any further slippage. He was moderately successful...in the slippage prevention, not in salvaging much grace.


There was a story in the Wall Street Journal a few weeks ago about criminals being caught because their overly-baggy pants fell down and impeded their escapes. I thought that it was poetic justice.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> There was a story in the Wall Street Journal a few weeks ago about criminals being caught because their overly-baggy pants fell down and impeded their escapes. I thought that it was poetic justice.


Classic. LOL.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

son of brummell said:


> An analogy to the Oxxford buttonhole is the Borrelli button.


I've been seeing more RTW, department-store shirts with really thick buttons recently. I wonder if it's becoming mainstream now, like work sleeve buttons on jackets.

--Andre


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I wonder if it's becoming mainstream now


I certainly hope not. The finer Kiton/Brioni buttonholes look much better.


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

I can't disagree. I find Borrelli's button sewing and buttonholes on their shirts to be especially shoddy given the prices they charge. Their suits are something else.

--Andre


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Andre Yew said:


> I can't disagree. I find Borrelli's button sewing and buttonholes on their shirts to be especially shoddy given the prices they charge. *Their suits are something else.*
> 
> --Andre


Something else good or something else bad???


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## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

Matt,

I think Borrelli's suits are constructed to a higher standard than their shirts. Sorry for that ambiguity.

--Andre


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## Chris Despos (Nov 30, 2005)

Just spoke with one of my cloth vendors about duties on cloth shipped to the US and he confirmed that the duty is 25%. Manufacturers who create clothes for resale are eligable for a rebate if they meet a volume level. This would apply to Oxxford. Someone like myself who sells directly to the consumer is not eligible. Silk is duty free. Cashmere is treated the same as wool. Cottons are complicated. No specific explanation. Shipping from Europe to Canada does not have this duty. My 38% figure was not correct.

Advantage- wholesalers, disadvantage- tailors.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

Cotton depends on which customs office runs it through and how busy they are.
If you've never seen the complete harmonized tariff book it is about as clear and concise as the rest of the Tax Code and another example of a 'no lobbyist left behind' effort.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Chris,

I do not know how import the differences are to your operation, but if a quiet day ever happens upon you, some time spent with the commerce dept. may be of interest.

My understanding is that the tariffs allow for a certain amount (millions of square yards) tax free to be brought in the country each year.

Then duties kick in.

All importers may be eligible for a rebate of up to 1/3 depending on criteria that includes annual volume considerations.

So again, the quick answer is yes, wool is subject to duty. But does he actually pay the full 25 percent on every inch of cloth brought in and does he never see one cent in rebates is the actual question he needs to address. 

Depending on his volume and business savyness and how well his lawyer has prepared him for importation forms, one could surmise maybe not.

Break down of fiber content changes the equation here in Canada, I have never looked into that aspect with the US rules beyond the 18.5 micron division as it does not apply for me.

Importing from Europe to Canada and then shipping to the US should not free the shipment of duty, unless perhaps a false declaration of country of origin is declared. I would think it would lead to double duty if done by the book, duty here and duty in the US.

Making a suit from European cloth and shipping the final product does free the finished suit of US duty.

If your supplier is buying end bolts from larger makers (as often happens on a small level) then he certainly would be hit with the duty. If they are buying large volumes directly, I would think they could get a piece of the quota allowance action as outlined by the commerce dept.


"Advantage- wholesalers, disadvantage- tailors"

No surprise on that front, companies here just need to flash healthy employment numbers to the Feds and heads stand up straight before them, doors open and the word "Yes" is often heard.

An example, Peerless made some noise and was given its own bus stop with several city buses that arrive just before quiting time each day and travel directly to the metro station. While viable for the transit system perhaps, it certain suits both parties well.


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## countdemoney (Apr 5, 2005)

Duties are more complex. The duty also depends on the country of origin - China is different for cotton than it is for england, than it is for Honduras.

Cottons are, well, crazy (socks are different than t-shirts, are different than pants, are different than pajamas). The cotton code is huge. Huge!

Wool is also complex, but not as bad as cotton.

If you are any kind of mid-size importer, you're generally not gonna run the risk as penalties can be severe. 25-30% duty is pretty accurate as a rule of thumb.

You also need to remember than Canada's tariff and duty relationship, espeecially with the UK, is much different than the US. I seem to recall a thread a year or two ago where people specifically discussed picking up their H. Lesser and other English Woollens in Canada and then bringing them south. Wool smugglers may yet be in our midst.


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## Mr. Golem (Mar 18, 2006)

Lets call the people who dress well the "Haves" and the not well dressed the "Have nots" for the purpose of this post.(ie make it easier to read)

I know we bag on the have nots, but we need them. If there were no have nots there wouldn't be the haves like us to critisize and make snide remarks. I'm sure the have nots have as negative attitude towards the haves, as the haves have towards the have nots.

Or not make it easier to read..


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## Chris L. (Aug 11, 2006)

Fashion TC said:


> Both Kiton and Oxxford are 98-100% handmade and 0-2% machine made. I believe that Attolini is 95-100% hand made and 0-5% machine made. But I am not 100% sure about this. I believe that Brioni is 90-95% hand made and 5-10% machine made. But I am not 100% sure about this either. You are correct that you can't go wrong with Oxxford or Kiton. The same holds true for Attolini and Brioni.


A quick question...

What would you classify Isaia? same as Attolini?

and how about Borrelli?

They seem to me; at least 95-100% handmade.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> What would you classify Isaia? same as Attolini? and how about Borrelli?


I think Isaia while a very good brand is not in the same league of handwork generally as Kiton/Brioni/Oxxford. Borrelli is somewhat controversial here. Some believe the construction quality is not very good; others differ. I've never had a Borrelli suit so will stay out of it.  Not sure about Attolini other than the finishing which in my opinion is not quite as good as Kiton or Brioni.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Look at the pic stitching on the lining of this Kiton. It's amazing.

The first time I saw the machine pic stitching on my Firado lining I thought there is no way anyone would ever mistake that for hand pic stitches since it's too even and consistent. After seeing what the artisans at Kiton can do, I guess what the makers who do machine pic stitching are actually doing is trying to emulate Kiton's hand pic stitching!


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Obviously this thread has taken on a life of its own. But from my personal perspective I don't really care whether my suits are hand made or machine made. Just like I don't care how my cars are put together. I do want them to be fast, handle well and of a very high quality.

I feel the same about my suits. So I first look at fabric; hand and drape; not wool fibre count.

Second I look at fit.

Third I look at silhouette but a great fabric in a well made garment makes me happy enough that I will wear a different silhouette than my favorite if enough quaility exists in the fabric and fit.

I do think the "looking good' does require some handwork around the lapels and shoulders and based on the tailors statements here around the canvass also. I frankly don't care if I have a garment that is fused so long as it doesn't bubble and since I very seldom dry clean my garments that has never been a problem.

I am not trying to jack the thread or turn its direction but it seems to me this is mostly a "less filling" "tastes great" thread.

And I keep going back to my Oxxford's get less wear than most of my other garments because their fabrics are not as good as the others. I don't mean bad; I just mean not as good as the others. I have a solid color staple 150's suit from Oxxford, Brioni, and Isaia as well as a 14 micron from Kiton. Clearly the Oxxford has the least luxurious fabric. Not that it is bad, just that it is the least Great. Now being the Ugly Duckling at the Miss USA pageant is not all bad. So I am happy with it and the rest. But I do reach for the others more often than the Oxxford.

Perry


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

pkincy said:


> Obviously this thread has taken on a life of its own. But from my personal perspective I don't really care whether my suits are hand made or machine made. Just like I don't care how my cars are put together. I do want them to be fast, handle well and of a very high quality.
> 
> I feel the same about my suits. So I first look at fabric; hand and drape; not wool fibre count.


I pretty much agree. I've got a couple of K&F suits that look great on me that aren't even 100% wool, they are blends. *gasp*

But in the end, I think the main focus of this thread is about the amazing abilities of the artisans at Kiton. The visible evidence of the handwork is what makes a Kiton suit different, but not necessarily better, than most other suits. (That and the astronomical price tag. :icon_smile_big


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The visible evidence of the handwork is what makes a Kiton suit different, but not necessarily better, than most other suits.


However, in the case of a handmade garment like Kiton, it is definitely better than most other suits.

I'll post some pics of some of my Kiton suits soon. I don't have a great camera unfortunately so I may use my film camera for more detail.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Obviously this thread has taken on a life of its own. But from my personal perspective I don't really care whether my suits are hand made or machine made. Just like I don't care how my cars are put together. I do want them to be fast, handle well and of a very high quality.


Why not have both performance and construction quality? Good quality often means better performance in the area of durability AND good looks. For instance, better constructed pants last longer and better lapel construction has a nice distinctive roll.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

pkincy said:


> I don't really care whether my suits are hand made or machine made.


Interesting.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

I find the Oxxford vs Kiton debate almost odd as they seem like such completely different beasts.

The degree of variation in handwork from one house to the next at this level represents such a minute amount, it is rather negligible.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> I find the Oxxford vs Kiton debate almost odd as they seem like such completely different beasts.
> 
> The degree of variation in handwork from one house to the next at this level represents such a minute amount, it is rather negligible.


I have three Oxxfords and zero Kitons, but what I find interesting about Oxxford is the degree to which the handwork is NOT evident unless you go looking for it. On the photos of the Kitons I've seen, they seem to go to great lengths to flaunt the handwork by using bold pic stitching that is incredibly uniform. Whereas on my Oxxfords, the hand stitching on the lapel edges, etc. is so fine that you can only tell it's there by the impression it makes in the fabric.

Same way with my Sanitate suits. Kiton uses bold pic stitching on the lining. The lining on my Sanitates are hand stitched, too, but it's so fine as to be almost microscopic.

Two different approaches to handwork? Oxxford = subdued, Kiton = in your face.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

"Two different approaches to handwork? Oxxford = subdued, Kiton = in your face."

Yes, wearing either is making a statement.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

GMF,

Again I get caught with my pants down thinking everyone is following my thought process! 

Where is the icon for a red face?

When I wrote:

Originally Posted by zegnamtl
The degree of variation in handwork from one house to the next at this level represents such a minute amount, it is rather negligible.

It was in reference to the post on percentages of machine vs hand work,
not in style of handwork.

Forgive the lack of clarity.

~~~~~
Originally Posted by Fashion TC
Both Kiton and Oxxford are 98-100% handmade and 0-2% machine made.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

zegnamtl, I understood what you meant. Kiton and Oxxford suits are both almost totally handmade. But given their different approaches to handwork it would be easy to conclude from just looking at the Kiton that it has MORE handwork than an Oxxford, when that's probably not the case.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Will wrote:

"Two different approaches to handwork? Oxxford = subdued, Kiton = in your face."

Yes, wearing either is making a statement.

~~~~~

Will, may I enquire?

What or whom do you find suits you best and are mostly likely to reach for first?


----------



## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

GMF said:


> Kiton and Oxxford suits are both almost totally handmade.


Let's not forget that Kiton uses a pad stitching machine for lapel and collar work while Oxxford does this work by hand.:icon_smile_wink:


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

zegnamtl said:


> ~~~~~
> Originally Posted by Fashion TC
> Both Kiton and Oxxford are 98-100% handmade and 0-2% machine made.


:biggrin2:


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## Chris L. (Aug 11, 2006)

I would take Attolini over Kiton.... But that's just me.

I also love the suits of Sartoria Domenico Caraceni of Rome.

If I had all the money in the world, though, I would get a Kiton, the K50 by Enzo.


Overall, I read that the best suits in the world are made by: Gianni Campagna of Caraceni. I would get either that or the K50 by Kiton...

Attolini makes so damn beautiful pants and jackets.


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## iyorito (Aug 18, 2005)

Attolini makes really awsome garments. I had some MTM garments measured by Cesare himself and had one fitting and the result was fantastic. I made 3 and 2 in the pipeline. I am glad I visited Casalnuovo where the factory is.
Massimiliano, the elder son, explained to me that the garments are "NOT"fully hand made. I was very impressed with his honesty. Nice guys. And fxxking awsome cut. I do not care if it's half machine made.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Massimiliano, the elder son, explained to me that the garments are "NOT"fully hand made. I was very impressed with his honesty. Nice guys. And fxxking awsome cut. I do not care if it's half machine made.


There may be some advantages to machine work in certain places.

Masaichi, when is your G&G website going to be finished?

The wait is killing me. I need to see some more shoe masterpieces.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Tomasso- Let's not forget that Kiton uses a pad stitching machine for lapel and collar work while Oxxford does this work by hand.

I thought the lapels were done by hand (pad-stitched)? At least I don't remember reading anything from Zeg that says otherwise. It sounds to me the canvas is somewhat machine made and then hand placed and hand sewn in, which would probably include the padding the lapels by hand to the coat lapel.

After all the hand work of placing the canvas into the coat it would be a waste of time to machine pad the lapels.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Let's not forget that Kiton uses a pad stitching machine for lapel and collar work while Oxxford does this work by hand.


Yes, also let's not forget that John Kerry served in Vietnam. 

Seriously though the lapels at Kiton are done by hand.


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## aelsolutions (Aug 10, 2006)

I just find the matching on the shirt collar incredible. Talk about attention to detail!

And zegna, are you a Montreal retailer or just a shopper?


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Seriously though the lapels at Kiton are done by hand.


So Kiton has a pad stitching machine that they use on the collar but not on the lapel? Interesting.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Tomasso-

I believe 'a tailor' wrote on the second page that Kiton did both collar and lapel hand-padded, whereas, nowadays, only the lapels.

From what Zegnamtl has written it sounds like the Melton and collar canvas are machine padded along with putting together the chest canvas some where else and then brougth over and everything else is hand sewn except some long seams, such as side seam and maybe back seam and maybe darts. Anyway, the Melton and collar canvas as seen in the picture is machine-padded together, but the rest of the sewing of the collar is by hand sewing.

When making a coat the canvases are cut, darts sewn and pad-stitched. The coat front darts & pockets, after the fitting (if there is a fitting) are sewn. Next the canvas is place on a table and then the coat front is place over the canvas and these two are carefully basted together. Now the two Lapels are pad-stitched together (canvas and coat lapels). Then the front edge is taped and the Bridle Line is taped. So far nobody has said or shown anything that convinces me that the lapels are machine padded. 

Zegnamtl, next time be sure to take a picture of the lapels from the canvas side just before the facing goes on, please, so we can see what kind of pad-stitching there is, then there will be a lot less debate.


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## aelsolutions (Aug 10, 2006)

Read this on Wikipedia... not sure if it's true (or if I'm repeating someone).



> The company makes about 20,000 suits a year that usually cost US$5,000 - $15,000 each. [...] Most suits normally take about 25 hours of labor...


So let's say the material costs a few hundred dollars... we're still paying around $200 - $600 per hour for tailoring. This sounds ludicrous to me (because we know that most of the workers won't ever see much of that money).

Is it just me that feels this way? Is it because I'm new to all of this that I'm going out of my mind? Or am I way off? Is there something in these suits that I can never find in any other suit that I'd want to pay several thousand dollars for?

Or maybe the simple explanation takes the cake.... since I'm a marketing major and I understand the real power of brand equity and consumer behaviour, maybe this is a real world example of what I've learned in the textbooks. A REALLY good example...

But if not... and if none of you can explain this to me, logically... I'm going to have to think things over about taking a real interest in the warm and fuzzy community you guys have here. :icon_scratch:

Oh, by the way, if wearing expensive clothing for the sake of wearing expensive clothing (or for some other reason besides quality/style/comfort) is your thing, then by all means, go for it. To each his (or her) own.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

aelsolutions said:


> Read this on Wikipedia... not sure if it's true (or if I'm repeating someone).
> 
> So let's say the material costs a few hundred dollars... we're still paying around $200 - $600 per hour for tailoring. This sounds ludicrous to me (because we know that most of the workers won't ever see much of that money).
> 
> Is it just me that feels this way? Is it because I'm new to all of this that I'm going out of my mind? Or am I way off?


Add some to the fabric costs. Add the overhead of the operation - everything from the telephones to the website to the electricity to the physical plant to the cost of marketing and then of course you have the people between Kiton and the retailer and then the retailer's overhead and sales commissions and and and and and and....

30 years ago the cost of most goods was determined largely by the actual production cost of the item. With handmade goods this is still largely true but in the marketplace as a whole the supply chain accounts for 80% of the cost of an item you purchase.

Kiton also has buyers and secretaries and accountants and janitors and numerous other folks who do not directly generate goods and thus revenue.

In short... open a lemonade stand, hire three union 10 year old's and get the proper permits and then see what a cup of lemonade costs you 

Not picking on you.... actually thinking more about what it will add to my overhead to have you look over some of my photography work since seeing what you did with color and lighting with your 'what am I wearing' pic


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

WA said:


> I believe 'a tailor' wrote on the second page that Kiton did both collar and lapel hand-padded.
> 
> .


WA, a tailor was speaking of Oxxford.

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showpost.php?p=377114&postcount=43


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## iyorito (Aug 18, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> There may be some advantages to machine work in certain places.
> 
> Masaichi, when is your G&G website going to be finished?
> 
> The wait is killing me. I need to see some more shoe masterpieces.


Max said consistency more than anything (aside from financial aspects).

G&G website should be up and running after mid September. I will keep you
posted!

Thanks!

Masaichi


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

tomasso- WA, a tailor was speaking of Oxxford.

Yes your right. He had me confused.

I wish he would use Captil letters at the beginning of sentence.


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## iyorito (Aug 18, 2005)

Depending on the item of course, but stores set retail prices 3.3 times to 4 times the FOB(out of the factory) price. The suits manufacturer like Kiton I believe put close to 100% margin on the cost of production. So let's say there is a suit at Bergdorf at USD$5,000. The FOB price out of the factory is around USD$1,500. So the cost for the factory to produce such garment is around USD$750. 

Retailers must put this outrageous margin since they must carry all sizes and they do not sell every single item, obviously. So the risk of leftover inventory is priced-in in the retail price. Then there are obvious costs of human resources, real estate, advertisement and etc.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

iyorito said:


> Depending on the item of course, but stores set retail prices 3.3 times to 4 times the FOB(out of the factory) price. The suits manufacturer like Kiton I believe put close to 100% margin on the cost of production. So let's say there is a suit at Bergdorf at USD$5,000. The FOB price out of the factory is around USD$1,500. So the cost for the factory to produce such garment is around USD$750.
> 
> Retailers must put this outrageous margin since they must carry all sizes and they do not sell every single item, obviously. So the risk of leftover inventory is priced-in in the retail price. Then there are obvious costs of human resources, real estate, advertisement and etc.


Much thanks for sharing your knowledge:icon_smile:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

iyorito said:


> Depending on the item of course, but stores set retail prices 3.3 times to 4 times the FOB(out of the factory) price. The suits manufacturer like Kiton I believe put close to 100% margin on the cost of production. So let's say there is a suit at Bergdorf at USD$5,000. The FOB price out of the factory is around USD$1,500. So the cost for the factory to produce such garment is around USD$750.


 That's a bit high. Normal markup for topscale stores is 2.3-3 of LPD (Landed; Duty-paid, Ex-works) price.

Working backwards from the $10K suit:
$4000 Cost to retailer of which $800 was Freight, Duties and Taxes
yields a factory selling price of $3,200.

I should, however, agree with you that the direct cost to produce that suit is in the $700-1000 range.

Contrast that with a pure bespoke maker's cost to produce a $10K garment (if they had the wherewithal) which would exceed $4-5,000. Gives a bit of an idea of the difference in what one receives for their money.

Of course, eventually the odd, unsold sizes and colorations end up at TJMax for $1500 and then you're getting a fair shake. :devil:


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## iyorito (Aug 18, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> That's a bit high. Normal markup for topscale stores is 2.3-3 of LPD (Landed; Duty-paid, Ex-works) price. QUOTE]
> 
> Obviously there is a discrepancy between the FOB (exclusive of shipping, duty, local transport) price and LPD price, so at the end of the day, I think you and I are talking pretty much on the same page.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

iyorito said:


> Alexander Kabbaz said:
> 
> 
> > That's a bit high. Normal markup for topscale stores is 2.3-3 of LPD (Landed; Duty-paid, Ex-works) price. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Of course, eventually the odd, unsold sizes and colorations end up at TJMax for $1500 and then you're getting a fair shake.


That's an exaggeration Alex. You can't buy Brioni, Kiton, Oxxford at TJ Maxx. NM Last Call perhaps.

I do agree where a bespoke might be a better value in terms of cost/quality relative to price. But that would apply to Oxxford as well and several brands that we love here.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

M2M or store bought that cost more than bespoke, or even cost, is a rip off, unless you really have a terrible bespoke tailor in your area. Some of these companies that charge even more than bespoke it is cheaper to fly to NY or England or Italy and get a bespoke suit.

A m2m by Brioni, Kiton, Oxxford, etc that cost the same as bespoke would be a lost of money, because you are not getting the same quality. I read over and over on these forums where people say they will never go back to something less than bespoke after they try bespoke, which means bespoke is by far better for so many of them. I have a trousers formula that is so comfortable, after making the pants, and putting them on, that I have to look sometimes to check that I'm even wearing pants, because I don't feel them when standing, sitting and walking. Nobody has ever written that m2m or store bought is that comfortable. Only bespoke trousers can be that comfortable, unless you are very very lucky. Not all trouser formulas make trouser that comfortable, but at lest one does.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Expedia has vastly over stated the production run at Kiton!

I will post later tonight,
gotta run,


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## mmathew (Sep 18, 2003)

The production isn't _that_ small.

"In 1997 *Kiton* made fewer than 17,000 suits-that amounts to around 55 suits per day-about 3,500 of which were sold in the United States."


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

55 suits a day with 200 tailors in house equates to a lot of handwork.

55 suits per day is minuscule compared to most fashion houses and I believe is less than Brioni.


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## aelsolutions (Aug 10, 2006)

Carlo,

I see the point you're making, and no offense taken 

However, almost all clothing has to go through multiple channels. We've obviously not paying factory costs directly when we buy a shirt or pants or suit. If that were so, we could go to Wal Mart with $5 and leave with 1000 pairs of shoes .

So markups and overhead costs are all similar. In fact, I'd expect cheaper items to have larger markups (which most do, some at over 1000% on a single trade) because it's not as visible to the consumer.

And just a note about overhead costs... a shop that does everything by hand doesn't use many machines, so overhead would probably be lower than other factories that do use machines. But higher labor costs due to unionization would of course add to overall selling prices, you're right on the money there.

All in all, I was just trying to bring the points that you and others have mentioned to light. That when you pay $10,000 for a suit, maybe think about where most of that money is going and see if it will be better spent elsewhere.

As for my graphics abilities, I run a web design / marketing firm so I try to be on the ball. I'm actually looking to open an online store selling ties, kind of a side project to generate some passive income. Feel free to message me anytime to talk about your pictures or your ties


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

You guys are killing me,
I was saving some of the numbers for the newspaper piece,
oh well, there be nothing fresh and nothing to add :-(


mmathew wrote:

The production isn't that small.

~~~~~~~

In 2005 250 tailors made about 12,000 suits 6,000 sports jackets,
for 18,000 units total, about 1/4th the size of the Brioni production run. 

It is not a tiny bespoke shop by any means,
but it is hardly a large factory operation either.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

aelsolutions wrote:
So let's say the material costs a few hundred dollars.


iyorito wrote:
So the cost for the factory to produce such garment is around USD$750. 


~~~~

On profit margins and fabric costs:

Kiton has managed to carve the niche it has with fabrics being as important as tailoring. The extend to which they go to secure, even to groom, these fabrics has been mentioned in the thread.

It is completely impossible for any of us to “ball park” fabric costs when you view the small scale of the runs and the extend they invest in raw material.

Even Alex, who has spent his life purchasing the finest shirt fabrics available, has not tried to estimate the fabric costs per suit. 
It just can’t done with any sort of reasonable guess under the conditions they operate under.

Imagine weaving the very finest of cashmere in the land, and only weaving enough to make 27 sports jackets and then starting a new!

The fabric wholesaler I visited wouldn’t even attempt a guess at their costs.

But this is what has given them their place in the market to sell 5k jackets. The most I have ever seen a Kiton marked down here in Montreal is 30 percent. The US market seems unique unto itself, so I am not sure if you can gage the world stage based on US sales in huge dept stores.


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

aelsolutions said:


> As for my graphics abilities, I run a web design / marketing firm so I try to be on the ball. I'm actually looking to open an online store selling ties, kind of a side project to generate some passive income. Feel free to message me anytime to talk about your pictures or your ties


javascript:emoticon(':hammerhead:')

You will fit in well around here.... smarty alec


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

WA,

I certainly wish I had taken more time and care when shooting the pictures. But even more, I wish I visited with Manton, Chris, the Alexes or yourself.
All of which know many times more than I about construction. 

I see the world more as the art lover,
not the painter!

I honestly thought it would be fun to post a few pictures and I would get a dozen replies. No more.
"Wow, it really is hand pick stitching" sort of thing.
I recall a thread about a year ago where a poster said Borrelli, Kiton and Antolli all use machine made fake hand pick stitching, I wanted to dispel a few of those hear say stories. I shot and asked question with daily newspaper readership in mind.

Never did I expect the scrutiny it received.
It has been a very interesting and educational.
I will be wiser and sharper for the visit to Oxxford, 
if all goes well, during the first week in Sept.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

zegnamtl said:


> I honestly thought it would be fun to post a few pictures and I would get a dozen replies. No more.
> "Wow, it really is hand pick stitching" sort of thing.
> ...I will be wiser and sharper for the visit to Oxxford,
> if all goes well, during the first week in Sept.


Troublemaker!


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The most I have ever seen a Kiton marked down here in Montreal is 30 percent.


I have bought a couple of suits from a NM sale at 50% off including an amazing 14 Micron but as the Kiton brand awareness grows, these scores are tougher to come by.



> In 2005 250 tailors made about 12,000 suits 6,000 sports jackets, for 18,000 units total, about 1/4th the size of the Brioni production run.


Fabulous information Z, thanks for that. I did not realize Brioni was so big.

I might be interested in the Oxxford tour. Can you take an extra person?


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Alan C wrote:

Troublemaker!

~~~

Sorry! Please don't send me to the corner


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Never did I expect the scrutiny it received.
> It has been a very interesting and educational.


It's been a great discussion and very civil as these things go. I think we have all learned a lot.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> I have bought a couple of suits from a NM sale at 50% off including an amazing 14 Micron but as the Kiton brand awareness grows, these scores are tougher to come by.


I recall that I paid about $3600 for my 14 micron Kiton at this summers NM sale. I had to snag it when it was still First Call. Couldn't chance it making it to last call and the 50% off.

Perry


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> I recall a thread about a year ago where a poster said Borrelli, Kiton and Antolli all use machine made fake hand pick stitching, I wanted to dispel a few of those hear say stories. I shot and asked question with daily newspaper readership in mind.


Well, given how incredibly uniform the pic stitching is, it's easy to see how some people would assume it was done by machine. The pic stitching in the photo below looks just like the machine pic stitching on my Firado and Claudia Wells suits. :icon_smile:

(And I'm really looking forward to your photo tour of Oxxford.)


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

GMF,

Is this picture of one of your own Kiton's?
What is the provenance of this picture?

I am very much looking forward to the Oxxford trip too.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Pkincy wrote:
I recall that I paid about $3600 for my 14 micron Kiton at this summers NM sale. I had to snag it when it was still First Call. Couldn't chance it making it to last call and the 50% off. 
~~~~

I check the Zegna and Kiton shops (and others time permitting) whenever I travel.
I have, generally speaking, never come across some of the deals that shoppers in the States find on a regular or seasonal basis, abroad.

The American shopper is in a very fortunate position.
Great selection, decent prices, and the opportunity for great sales.
I have yet to find such a balance elsewhere.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> GMF,
> 
> Is this picture of one of your own Kiton's?
> What is the provenance of this picture?


No, I wish. It's from this thread about the unwanted Kiton.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

Deleted since authencity of photo is questionable.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Uh-oh...

:icon_smile_big:


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Mark,

Without libeling an E bay seller, which is where I am guessing this picture came from, or putting Andy at risk,

Is this image guaranteed from an authorized retailer and a certified Kiton piece since we are debating their reputation on this image?

This picture does not look like any product I have slipped on my back!

It would drive me around the bend to see this happen to anyone, Oxxford, Kiton, anyone, remember the comments made about A-E a week ago?

It would be nice if you took that picture down.

(Edited to soften the tone.)


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

GMF,

I would edit that picture out if it is not a product that you can swear on the authenticity of!


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> GMF,
> 
> I would edit that picture out if it is not a product that you can swear on the authenticity of!


Huh? I didn't warrant that it's genuine. And no one in the thread in which the owner posted said it was a fake.

Are you saying that because the pic is so uniform you think it's fake?


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

Look at all his photos and see what you think.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> I check the Zegna and Kiton shops (and others time permitting) whenever I travel.
> I have, generally speaking, never come across some of the deals that shoppers in the States find on a regular or seasonal basis, abroad.
> 
> The American shopper is in a very fortunate position.


Sometime between now and January please pm me with your Kiton sizing and I will be happy to email you the selection of garments in your size when I visit NM San Francisco for the first call sale in January. You can then call and make buying and shipping arrangements directly with them.

BTW, I have not seen Kiton on sale outside of SF. I know it happens but it doesn't in Beverly Hills or Scottsdale so I have to fly to SF.

Perry


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

GMF,

I think, unless you can personally swear that it is real,
it should not be posted as real,
and not used as a statement to the level of work done by Kiton.

I am not going to debate the authenticity on AAAC.
The gentlemanly thing to do, given the suit is not yours, is remove the picture.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Perry,

That is very kind of you!
I will take you up on the offer if you don't mind.
I am almost a perfect 40r, sometimes I take a 40s if the sports jacket is on the "sporty" side.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

zegnamtl said:


> GMF,
> 
> I think, unless you can personally swear that it is real,
> it should not be posted as real,
> ...


Okay, I deleted it. Would you send me a PM and tell me why you think the suit is not legit?


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> I certainly wish I had taken more time and care when shooting the pictures. But even more, I wish I visited with Manton, Chris, the Alexes


:idea: Maybe Chris and/or Alex can accompany you on your visit to Oxxford.



zegnamtl said:


> I honestly thought it would be fun to post a few pictures and I would get a dozen replies. No more.
> Never did I expect the scrutiny it received...


:icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: Z, you're not in Kansas anymore:icon_smile_wink:



zegnamtl said:


> It has been a very interesting and educational..


I agree and we have you to thank. "Kiton, the truth about handwork" surely must be considered one of AAAC's Hall of Fame threads. 
It's been especially interesting to observe the tactics employed by the Kiton devotees in defending their faith.:crazy:



zegnamtl said:


> I will be wiser and sharper for the visit to Oxxford,
> if all goes well, during the first week in Sept.


Oxxford must be crazy to let you and your camera loose in their workrooms. Either that or they have nothing to hide.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Thank you GMF!
A gentleman indeed.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Tomasso,

Thank you!

I'll hedge my bets that Oxxford has nothing to hide indeed.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Great selection, decent prices, and the opportunity for great sales.


The Milanese have this as well based on my banking projects there and the prices are terrific.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

[B said:


> zegnamtl][/b]
> _
> I certainly wish I had taken more time and care when shooting the pictures. But even more, I wish I visited with Manton, Chris, the Alexes_


 Hell! I wish you had visited with me, too!!!

P.S. Having read this entire thread, there will be *no* photographs of your shirt fittings. No. None. Ninguna. Nada. Nyet. And when the fittings are done ... and the real shirts created ... I'm going to monogram Copyright Symbols all over them!


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## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

zegnamtl said:


> Mark,
> 
> Without libeling an E bay seller, which is where I am guessing this picture came from, or putting Andy at risk,
> 
> ...


You are mistaken. See here:

https://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/avers1/Kiton_suit/

That is most definitely an authentic Kiton suit.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

*Oxxford Offers Free Tours*



Artisan Fan said:


> I might be interested in the Oxxford tour.


Anyone can arrange to be measured(and fitted) for MTM at the Oxxford workrooms, where a free tour is included.:icon_smile_wink:


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

A Harris said:


> You are mistaken. See here:
> 
> https://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/avers1/Kiton_suit/
> 
> That is most definitely an authentic Kiton suit.


I see nothing amiss. I looked at the stitching on the inside of my 3 kitons and this looks like the stitching in both of my sportcoats. My 14 micron suit has a bit longer and more even stitch than this however. All 3 were bought at Neiman's so I suspect that all are genuine :icon_smile:

None of my labels look like this only because NM has Kiton do a special label for them.

It would suck if we had to start worrying about counterfeit suit garments from any manufacturer like those that wear Polo shirts do.

Perry


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

If someone now starts reading this thread one post at a time beginning with the innocuous and generous initial offering by Zegnamtl they'll go to bed tonight thinking 'what a lovely post'. Exactly one year from now they'll read this post and will have forgotten how innocently it started.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

It's terrible that counterfeit is so big, and so much of it ends up in the USA. Kiton could be, like anything else, counterfeited.

I think most American stores want a certain amount of income from there store space. For example, sunglasses might cost the store owner $26 but sells for $88 to customers, because they take so much space and that space needs to produce a certain amount of income within a certain amount of time, and sunglasses can sit there for awhile, so the big markup. If that space is not selling then the products in that space get marked down, if it still does not sell then it gets put into an area of the store that is worth less and the price can be well below what the store owner paid, so good deals in America. If it does not go there, then it is sold to Ross or some other "give away" store, which is nice for the poorer people.

This has been a good thread. I wish some people didn't try to make Kiton into nothing as though there is ownly first place and no second or third, because Kiton has some unique features of it's own, such as there cloth, which can't be gotten anywhere else.

'a tailor' and Chris could point out a lot of things, and Alex K, too. Zegnamtl, this thread has given you a free education. Looking forward to the Oxxford one. And as time goes by some other ones, too.


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## GMF (Jun 28, 2006)

pkincy said:


> I see nothing amiss. I looked at the stitching on the inside of my 3 kitons and this looks like the stitching in both of my sportcoats. My 14 micron suit has a bit longer and more even stitch than this however. All 3 were bought at Neiman's so I suspect that all are genuine :icon_smile:
> 
> None of my labels look like this only because NM has Kiton do a special label for them.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'd like to think it's a genuine Kiton and that their artisans can in fact do pic stitching that is so uniform it could be mistaken for machine stitching.


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## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

> It's terrible that counterfeit is so big, and so much of it ends up in the USA. Kiton could be, like anything else, counterfeited.


If by counterfeiting you mean mocking up a Kiton label and sewing it into a cheap suit, then yes it could be done. But it would be a totally fruitless exercise. Making a convincing Kiton counterfeit would be an even more fruitless exercise. I would not expect to see many Kiton counterfeits now, or anytime in the future. What you will see (albeit rarely) is people detaching Kiton labels from damaged suits or pants and sewing them into cheap suits to post on ebay. Those are pathetic attempts however, and very easy to spot if you've the least knowledge about clothing.


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## son of brummell (Sep 29, 2004)

I have withdrawn the thread which "quoted" a picture of an alleged Kiton coat which has questionable authenicity. 

I apologize for using and commenting on this photo. I did not know that there was a market for phony Kitons on eBay.

In an aside, I know that there is a healthy market in bogus Hermes goods on eBay. A couple of years ago I bought an Hermes tie. Not only was the tie counterfeit, but the crooks also copied the orange box! Of course, the seller would not accept a return. When I registered a negative feedback the seller entered a negative feedback comment which lowered by feedback score. Therefore, it was a loss all around.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your Hermes loss Mark. A friend of mine was also snagged by a bogus Hermes tie on ebay-maybe the same vendor. 

An even worse example was my friend Kevin who lost a whopping $2K on an audio scam on Audiogon when buying a high end CD player. It snagged several folks we later found out. I tend to buy from folks who only have very established feedback and reputation.


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## Lino (Apr 15, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I should, however, agree with you that the direct cost to produce that suit is in the $700-1000 range.
> 
> Contrast that with a pure bespoke maker's cost to produce a $10K garment (if they had the wherewithal) which would exceed $4-5,000. Gives a bit of an idea of the difference in what one receives for their money.
> 
> Of course, eventually the odd, unsold sizes and colorations end up at TJMax for $1500 and then you're getting a fair shake.





Artisan Fan said:


> I do agree where a bespoke might be a better value in terms of cost/quality relative to price. But that would apply to Oxxford as well and several brands that we love here.


Cost/quality is an area I have been considering lately. Here are few other things to consider:

While the cost of a locally produced suit will not be effected by duty and shipping, the cost of the fabric still is, plus, there may be an additional layer of middleman in the form of fabric importer/distributor.

While the factory will have higher total overhead costs to run its facilities vs. a bespoke opperator. The cost is spread out over more items, plus economies of scale may kick in at some point for a range of things: from canvassing material to thread and buttons to health insurance (if they are in the US).

All and all, it is usually better to go local and to the source. But, depending on;
1. what you can/will spend on a suit, 
2. what your expectations are in quality, 
3. what your preference is for cut, 
4. how exacting your standards are for fit, 
5. and how well you do with OTR sizes,
it can be difficult to tell which route-OTR, MTM, or bespoke-is the best value. I think the higher or lower the price range, the easier the choice is clearer (if you can spend in the $2400+ higher range, bespoke will be your best bet; if you can, or will, not spend more than about $650, then your only option is really OTR at discount, a lucky ebay buy, second hand, or a decent fused suit) but in the middle (espeically in the $650 to $1,000 range), things get really murky.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

*The Kiton CUSTOM Shop At Bergdorf Goodman*


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Tomasso,

Marcello is in the lead of the newspaper version of the Kiton text.
I will throw you a subtle twist with the lead and exit based on Marcello.

I can't wait to post it here!


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

son of brummell said:


> I have withdrawn the thread which "quoted" a picture of an alleged Kiton coat which has questionable authenicity.
> 
> I apologize for using and commenting on this photo. I did not know that there was a market for phony Kitons on eBay.
> 
> In an aside, I know that there is a healthy market in bogus Hermes goods on eBay. A couple of years ago I bought an Hermes tie. Not only was the tie counterfeit, but the crooks also copied the orange box! Of course, the seller would not accept a return. When I registered a negative feedback the seller entered a negative feedback comment which lowered by feedback score. Therefore, it was a loss all around.


I hope you filed a 'Not as Described' claim if you paid via paypal. or do a chargeback with your cc company (not sure if this works) if you paid with your card.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I understand that NM SF is remodeling to build a Kiton Shop on their premises after Christmas.

Perry


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Same for Atlanta's Neiman's as well. Special Kiton shop when they move to the lower floor.

It's nice also that Neiman's has been able to offer $400 shirts from Kiton, still with nice fabrics. Giving Borrelli a run for the customer.


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## Drag0n (Aug 24, 2006)

Wow...Americans really love Kiton


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

*Updated text*

Sorry for the delay gents,
the project I was hoping to have up by now has been delayed until at very least, late Nov.

So I have posted the rough version of the text here anyway (see the first post, I have edited that post).
Please keep in mind that:

I am a shooter , not a writer!
This is pre copy editor cleaned up text.
This was done for daily newspaper readership, originally with the idea of running during fashion week, which has come and gone,
not the very informed AAAC membership.


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## kitonbrioni (Sep 30, 2004)

Again, thanks for updating your most interesting report and the great pictures.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Here is an Oxxford-https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oxxfordppppppppp3nxnw6.jpg

If you click on it do you see some machine zig-zag instead of handpadded?

Double Breasted lapels are nicely handpadded.

Since there was a big argument I thought I would put this up. If Andy wants this deleted please send me a message.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

WA,

The upper right corner does appear to be machine stitched doesn't it.

I met a tailor who said that hand work in the canvas is over rated,
others seem to say it is obligatory. 
I am not sure there will ever be a definitive answer.


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

a tailor noted herethat Oxxford's canvasses are no longer hand sewn.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Thank you for the link Tomasso.
At the last minute I watered down the references to the BG kiton boutique rep Vero.

It just is not the same in print and on a forum. 
The picture of a finished kiton piece at Uomo that should have run with that was never taken as I did not want to have Uomo go through the grief and then have the whole piece delayed by months.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

An excellent question for Michael on Friday morning.

Last week he told me that there are some operations that they do not feel are better with hand work so they do use machines for those specific operations. However they do use handstitching every place that it will improve the garment.

Brighter minds than I can probably drill down on that a bit and get to see what they mean on Friday morning.

BTW, as of last week Michael had not read this thread although he is an avid lurker on AA. I did encourage him to read it and I suspect he will have by Friday morning.

A very impressive gentleman.

Perry


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm going to do us all a favor and try to stay out of this.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

pkincy said:


> Last week he told me that there are some operations that they do not feel are better with hand work so they do use machines for those specific operations. However they do use handstitching every place that it will improve the garment.
> Perry


Perry,

This is what a few tailors have told me since the issue came up in this thread. One went so far as to say that machine stitching in some areas in better done by machine than by hand.

One likened it to:
If I paint your car with 3 coats or 5, does it really improve the look of the car? But it does drive the cost way up.

I am still too much of a rookie to say brilliant or poppycock!

But, as I had noted in the first text, the only machine stitching on the fabric, not canvas, of the Kiton is the long seams in the jacket.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

The tailor used a very poor analogy as 5 coats of paint is very definitely better than 3. 

For Artisan Fan,

Aren't you able to make this Fridays trip?

Michael did say that you had asked for a visit date a bit later in the fall.

I am looking forward to your report and your idea of the comparison.

BTW, as of last week I now own one more Oxxford garment than I do Kiton. But I anticipate keeping the numbers somewhat even since each of them have there unique charm. My favorite features are the Oxxford waist band being incredibly comfortable and the Kiton fabrics being sublime. In all other areas their attributes are more closely matched.

Perry


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

pkincy said:


> BTW, as of last week I now own one more Oxxford garment than I do Kiton. But I anticipate keeping the numbers somewhat even since each of them have there unique charm. My favorite features are the Oxxford waist band being incredibly comfortable and the Kiton fabrics being sublime. In all other areas their attributes are more closely matched.
> 
> Perry


Perry,

You are one of the few who love them both for what they are!
What is it the French say?
Vivre la Différence :--)

"The tailor used a very poor analogy as 5 coats of paint is very definitely better than 3."

I think he was just trying to make a point to the layman.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> An excellent question for Michael on Friday morning.


Perry,

Dumb question here-which Michael? Not sure I understand who is visiting...


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## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> Perry,
> 
> Dumb question here-which Michael? Not sure I understand who is visiting...


I think he is referring to the AAAC gathering in Chicago next weekend and the Oxxford factory visit planned for Friday i.e. Michael (Cohen), CEO of Oxxford.

BTW great piece zegnamtl. Too bad it didn't run during fashion week. Keep us posted when it does. And it's "Vive la difference" :icon_smile_wink:


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I think he is referring to the AAAC gathering in Chicago next weekend and the Oxxford factory visit planned for Friday i.e. Michael (Cohen), CEO of Oxxford.


That would make sense. I'm not sure I can make it.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Great article. I have to say that whatever is done by hand or machine aside, my visit to Kiton was a truly memorable experience. The people were just as nice as you said and just as humble. I was also struck by how clean the entire operation is.

I do not think that you could possibly say enough about the incredible storehouse of fabrics that they have on site. The fabrics are truly eye-popping. Your article is well written and conveys the feeling of the place.


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## junior engineer (Jun 14, 2005)

.....


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

You are a man of little content junior engineer. ic12337:


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## junior engineer (Jun 14, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> You are a man of little content junior engineer. ic12337:


Sorry 

I was bookmarking this so I could read it at home.

(And maybe bumping it for those who haven't)


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

No problem. I was wondering what you were doing.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Tomasso said:


> a tailor noted herethat Oxxford's canvasses are no longer hand sewn.


This is completely false. The only machine work in Oxxford clothing is a minority or vast minority of the straight line seams for the lining (NOT the pocket linings) of the jacket and the vest, which are done primarily by hand with a very small amount of machine work. There are a scarce few (i.e. less than ten) straight line seams with a very small amount of machine work in the pants. Withjout a doubt, the zig zag lines in that picture of the canvassing of an Oxxford jacket were done completely by hand even though it looks like they have some machine work. Oxxford is way to smart to cut corners in any way, especially in the way of decreasing handwork and increasing machine work, even if it makes the garment or garments more or much more affordable. Oxxford's sales would nosedive considerably if there was even the smallest decrease in handwork and even the smallest increase in machine work let alone anything more than the smallest decrease in handwork and anything more than the smallest increase in machinework. This is all solid fact.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

WA said:


> Here is an Oxxford-https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oxxfordppppppppp3nxnw6.jpg
> 
> If you click on it do you see some machine zig-zag instead of handpadded?
> 
> ...


As I said in my last post, the canvassing on those lapels are completely hand sewn. Oxxford just sewed the canvas on that lapel 100% by hand with those zig zag lines that look machine sewn probably because it holds up better that way. No corner cutting will ever be in any genuine Oxxford clothes. They would end up going out of business very, very abruptly. This is all solid fact.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

zegnamtl said:


> WA,
> 
> The upper right corner does appear to be machine stitched doesn't it.
> 
> ...


Once again, Oxxford's canvassing is 100% hand sewn. Given the extraordinary talent of the tailors (and other clothing makers) in the Oxxford factory in Chicago, Illinois, they probably were able to 100% hand sew the canvas with those zig zag lines that look machine sewn because it probably holds up better that way.

Oxxford is way too smart to use even the smallest possible amount of machine work for anything other than the minority or vast minority of straightline seams for the lining of the jacket and vest (all of the minority or vast minority of straight line seams for the lining of the jacket and vest are sewn mostly by hand with a very small amount of machine work) with less than ten (I believe a minimum of two and a maximum of seven) straight lines seams overall on the pants sewn mostly by hand with a very small amount of mahcine work. Oxxford's sales would nosedive considerably if there was any decrease in handwork and any increase in machinework. Without a doubt, it would be Sayonara (and a very, very abrupt one at that) to Oxxford if they did this. This is all solid fact.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Fashion TC said:


> Once again, Oxxford's canvassing is 100% hand sewn. Given the extraordinary talent of the tailors (and other clothing makers) in the Oxxford factory in Chicago, Illinois, they probably were able to 100% hand sew the canvas with those zig zag lines that look machine sewn because it probably holds up better that way.
> 
> Oxxford is way too smart to use even the smallest possible amount of machine work for anything other than the minority or vast minority of straightline seams ...This is all solid fact.


I am impressed by how decisively you put this. Clearly you must be basing this on firsthand visits to the Oxxford workrooms over the years, time in the clothing industry, and exhaustive study of tailoring methods.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

RJman said:


> I am impressed by how decisively you put this. Clearly you must be basing this on firsthand visits to the Oxxford workrooms over the years, time in the clothing industry, and exhaustive study of tailoring methods.


No, just based on what I have read on here many, many times before. And, based on what I have read on other websites (including Oxxford's own website) in the past. In that picture, it says, "look at the inside of an Oxxford jacket if you want to see what quality handmade construction is all about". If there was even the smallest possible amount of machinework let alone anything more than that in the canvassing of any Oxxford jacket, the line in that picture that I quoted would be false advertising. Most false advertising is illegal. The line that I quoted from that picture is no exception to most false advertising being illegal if it were false advertising.


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Fashion TC said:


> No, just based on what I have read on here many, many times before. And, based on what I have read on other websites (including Oxxford's own website) in the past. In that picture, it says, "look at the inside of an Oxxford jacket if you want to see what quality handmade construction is all about". If there was even the smallest possible amount of machinework let alone anything more than that in the canvassing of any Oxxford jacket, the line in that picture that I quoted would be false advertising. Most false advertising is illegal. The line that I quoted from that picture is no exception to most false advertising being illegal if it were false advertising.


Dude,

The canvassing on the right can only be done by machine. Hands just cannot make stitches like that. It is not the regularity, but the actual shape of them. The stitches on teh left are by hand.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

iammatt said:


> Dude,
> 
> The canvassing on the right can only be done by machine. Hands just cannot make stitches like that. It is not the regularity, but the actual shape of them. The stitches on teh left are by hand.


But-but, but-but, how can that be? It's false advertising! And false posting! The portals of Jermyn Street quake!


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

iammatt said:


> Dude,
> 
> The canvassing on the right can only be done by machine. Hands just cannot make stitches like that. It is not the regularity, but the actual shape of them. The stitches on teh left are by hand.


Since that is the case, then the inside of the jacket in that picture must not be an Oxxford jacket, even though it is passed off as an Oxxford jacket. Oxxford themselves even state on their website that their canvasses are hand sewn and hand padded. Unless stated otherwise, hand padded and hand sewn is 100% of both of the above by hand.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

dopey said:


> The line you quote from the picture may or may not be false advertising, but it is not from Oxxford. The picture is one taken by Sartorial Solutions, a/k/a our own Chuck Franke/Carlo Franco for his ebay business. The copy is his, not Oxxford's.
> 
> There are many reasons why we ought to be wary of passing off knowledge we acquire on the internet as real expertise. This is a good example of how easy it is to become misinformed if you are not careful.


As I said before, since that picture is not from Oxxford, the jacket in that picture is very clearly not an Oxxford jacket, even though it is being passed off as an Oxxford jacket. Oxxford themselves on their website say that the canvassing in all of their jackets is hand sewn and hand padded. As I also said before, unless stated otherwise, hand sewn, hand padded or hand done in anyway is 100% done by hand.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

I'm sorry, man. The dream is over.


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

Well you walk into a restaurant, strung out from the road,
You can feel the eyes upon you as your shaking off the cold
You pretend it doesnt bother you, but you just want to explode.
Most times you cant hear em talk, other times you can.
Oh the same old cliche, as that woman on her a man
You always see my number, you dont dare make a stand.
Here I am, on the road again. there I am, up on the stage.
Here I go, playing star again.
There I go, turn the page


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## LotharoftheHillPeople (Apr 30, 2006)

RJman said:


> I'm sorry, man. The dream is over. [/QUOTE
> 
> That's funny.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Go Matt go!


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## Tomasso (Aug 17, 2005)

Sophistication said:


> Well you walk into a restaurant, strung out from the road,
> You can feel the eyes upon you as your shaking off the cold
> You pretend it doesnt bother you, but you just want to explode.
> Most times you cant hear em talk, other times you can.
> ...


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Tomassa,

That applies to most of this page!!



FTC,

That is a lot of solid facts! Impressive.
But, your not on very solid ground buddy,
let it go!


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## Soph (Sep 25, 2005)

Tomasso said:


>


"Turn the page" is a common term used denote that one should move on versus continue to discuss a subject that most likely has been 'beating a dead horse'


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

The thread that wouldn't die.

Perry


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