# Two questions about breaking the law



## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

These are hypothetical questions that I just suddenly wondered what their answers are:

1. Suppose I'm standing in one state (say, Maryland) near the border with another state (say, Pennsylvania). While standing in MD, I toss a piece of garbage over the border so that it lands in PA. Which state's law did I break? Which state would want to prosecute or issue a citation, if they were aware of it?

2. Suppose I'm standing in MD, again near the PA border. Suppose there is a PA law enforcement officer standing on the PA side, in clear visual contact with me. Now suppose I commit a crime completely within MD, such as murder. This crime starts and ends in MD. The PA police officer sees me do it. Can that officer cross the border to attempt to detain me? Does the answer to this question depend on the severity of the crime?


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

I know the feeling. Not about your bizarro breaking the law thing, but about reading the topics in the current AAAC line-up and thinking_ man, these are dull. Lemme throw something fresh out there._ Anyway, I have no answer to your hypo dilemma, except that the hypo would be a wee more intoxicating if you you stood on the Maryland line and threw the garbage into West Virgina. Not only would you have a mighty arm, but I don't think West Va would notice the difference.


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## njkyle (Oct 11, 2009)

Maybe both situations are covered under federal the Interstate Commerce clause. Maybe the FBI would be called in. Maybe they are watching you now...

Situation two would depend on when the officer's shift is due to end, how close he is to a doughnut shop, etc. If he has nothing better to do, he could cross state lines and slap you around a little, and then drag you and your litter into PA. 

Now answer me this... Did you have an underage girl with you at the time, and did you coerce her to cross the state line to make sure your garbage landed in the correct spot for your scenario?

Hmm, hmm?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I would think this could be interesting if a slapstick comedian threw a pie from a state where the assault is a misdemeanor and it his someone in the face in a state where this act was a felony, how would the thrower be charged?


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I don't know the answer to your question but let's look at another example. Let's say that you and some buddies pull in to a gas station at 2:00 am to relieve yourself after some serious beer drinking and find the station is closed. Now let's say that you have a 70 mile drive ahead of you to get back to the base where you are stationed so you decide to go around to the back of the station and obtain said relief. Now just for fun let's say that the gas station has been staked out by the police because they expect a robbery that night. When they surround you with their spotlights and tell you to "freeze" what law have you violated and what should they do to you? Is it attempted burglery or simply peeing in public?

Actually in Charleston SC it's neither. They escort you to the city limits and tell you not to come back. At least that's what I've been told. :icon_smile_big:

Cruiser


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## andy b. (Mar 18, 2010)

1- you can throw garbage all around your house if you want, it isn't a crime until it lands somewhere that it has been deemed a crime. I say in item 1 you will be prosecuted in PA.

2- once a chase has ensued I believe the officer pursuing you can keep following you until he detains you. I would say the PA officer would contact his MD counterparts and state he is in pursuit of a murder suspect and requires backup of MD police.

Andy B.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

andy b. said:


> 1- you can throw garbage all around your house if you want, it isn't a crime until it lands somewhere that it has been deemed a crime. I say in item 1 you will be prosecuted in PA.
> 
> 2- once a chase has ensued I believe the officer pursuing you can keep following you until he detains you. I would say the PA officer would contact his MD counterparts and state he is in pursuit of a murder suspect and requires backup of MD police.
> 
> Andy B.


I like your #1 answer, that makes sense. Regarding #2, I know that once started, pursuit can be continued across jurisdictional boundaries; that's called "hot pursuit". Usually, the pursuer is required to maintain visual contact with the suspect. If I do the crime on his side of the line and then crossed into MD, sure, he can keep chasing me. However, in this case, the question is can the PA officer _start_ a pursuit when he witnesses a crime in another jurisdiction other than his own.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

^^^^
I can see what your weekend plans will be..... just kidding.  (but just in case, I'll be watching the news networks)


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

You will be detained by both jurisdictions so that lawyers from both states can bleed you dry after which you will be banished to Charleston, which you were no where near at the time, and again bled for more money, locked up to work in the prison laundry where you will have an accident and luckily be a doner match for a Senator with a kidney problem, and then sent to Georgetown after which you will never be seen again.

Don't litter!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

1. You "littered" in 1 state, but the "evidence" is in another. He will can take pictures from his side, but he will need permission (called in or pre-arranged) to cross state lines to get it.

2. Murder is tricky. But here's what I think would happen. The officer would pursue and DETAIN you using the citizens arrest clause (most state's have one), likely calling it in on the run. He would not arrest you. He would wait until someone of the proper jurisdiction showed up to do so, and then he would act as a witness to the crime. i.e. If you catch a burglar in your house, and hold him at gunpoint, until the police arrive, you never arrested him, but you did detain him until someone who could arrest him showed up.

This all assumes there is no cross municipality agreements already in place. Many states have "hot pursuit" laws on the books, allowing a police officer to cross from one state into the next if chasing a suspect. There's also a variety of laws which grant "off-duty" police officers leeway when dealing with crimes in progress, when outside their jurisdiction. THere was a shopping mall incident a couple years back where an FBI agent (stationed in VA), had to shoot an armed suspect in a MD shopping mall. He was outside his Field Office's area, but acting within an "official capacity."


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Apatheticviews said:


> The officer would pursue and DETAIN you using the citizens arrest clause (most state's have one), likely calling it in on the run. He would not arrest you.


"Detain" is the exact word I used in my original question: "Can that officer cross the border to attempt to detain me?" So I guess your answer is, "Yes."


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

I like the International Tidy Man sign:










Obviously, this sign means that if you attempt to beat down a piece of paper that's flying out of a trash can to attack you, you will split in half at the waist.


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

JJR512 said:


> Obviously, this sign means that if you attempt to beat down a piece of paper that's flying out of a trash can to attack you, you will split in half at the waist.


Be warned. Paper cuts can be nasty.


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## mjc (Nov 11, 2009)

JJR512 said:


> Now suppose I commit a crime completely within MD, such as murder. This crime starts and ends in MD. The PA police officer sees me do it. Can that officer cross the border to attempt to detain me? Does the answer to this question depend on the severity of the crime?


Detain you? Nah, they can shoot you just fine from PA.

- Mike


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

mjc said:


> Detain you? Nah, they can shoot you just fine from PA.
> 
> - Mike


Interesting, because I guess the cop could at least shoot then drag the body to his state line. (No one would know)


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

ZachGranstrom said:


> Interesting, because I guess the cop could at least shoot then drag the body to his state line. (No one would know)


You need to watch more CSI!!! There would be trace evidence showing the body's path.


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## mjc (Nov 11, 2009)

No, no, no. They wouldn't move the body. They'd use the distance as an excuse. "It was kind of far, and I thought he had a rocket propelled grenade." That sort of thing.


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## ZachGranstrom (Mar 11, 2010)

mjc said:


> No, no, no. They wouldn't move the body. They'd use the distance as an excuse. "It was kind of far, and I thought he had a rocket propelled grenade." That sort of thing.


Oh........ So, no moving of the body? (where's the fun in that?)


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## Country Irish (Nov 10, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> You need to watch more CSI!!! There would be trace evidence showing the body's path.


You should watch less CSI. Most of what they show is crap. Cops still have a hard time lifting good fingerprints.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

Country Irish said:


> You should watch less CSI. Most of what they show is crap. Cops still have a hard time lifting good fingerprints.


The technology that they have in CSI looks plausible to me, but I always thought their labs and stations look way too fancy for government budgets.

However, I suspect that a bloody, matted trail in the grass, and grass stains and blades on my body, should be easy enough to find. I'm assuming I'll be dragged through grass because whenever I cross the border on I-83 or I-95, grass is what I see.


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## mjc (Nov 11, 2009)

When my office gets broken into, the police come and very carefully record my name, and date of birth, in their paper notebooks.

And that's it.

No fancy detective work or catching of criminals.

Maybe dead bodies make a difference, but I don't expect much.

- Mike


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

mjc said:


> When my office gets broken into, the police come and very carefully record my name, and date of birth, in their paper notebooks.
> 
> And that's it.
> 
> ...


Yes, it makes a huge difference. If there had been a dead body found in your broken-into office, then a second pair of officers would have shown up to write your name and date of birth in a different notebook.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

^^

A third pair shows up with coffee and doughnuts!!


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

ZachGranstrom said:


> Interesting, because I guess the cop could at least shoot then drag the body to his state line. (No one would know)


Why drag you to his side? It's someone else's problem as long as you are on the other side.


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## mjc (Nov 11, 2009)

This thread has gone way off course. Let's focus on the important part: _What shoes would you wear?_


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

mjc said:


> This thread has gone way off course. Let's focus on the important part: _What shoes would you wear?_


The answer to that depends on why I'm killing the person in the first place. Each different possible reason involves a different psychology that brought me to that point, which in turn, means I'm wearing different shoes. If I'm with organized crime, I'm probably very well-dressed in a double-breasted suit and bespoke Italian plain cap-toe shoes. I'm I'm insane or a serial killer, I'm probably wearing black steel-toed side-zip 10" boots. And so on.


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## realbrineshrimp (Jun 28, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> The technology that they have in CSI looks plausible to me, but I always thought their labs and stations look way too fancy for government budgets.
> 
> However, I suspect that a bloody, matted trail in the grass, and grass stains and blades on my body, should be easy enough to find. I'm assuming I'll be dragged through grass because whenever I cross the border on I-83 or I-95, grass is what I see.


Here's a parody of CSI's 'zooming' technology... 




As for cop shows, everyone should make an effort to watch The Wire. It is easily one of the best, if not the best TV show ever created.


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## JJR512 (May 18, 2010)

realbrineshrimp said:


> As for cop shows, everyone should make an effort to watch The Wire. It is easily one of the best, if not the best TV show ever created.


Ugh. I'm not originally from Baltimore, but my father and his family are, and we live just outside it now. I've been in Baltimore a lot for work-related reasons, usually driving an ambulance. I've never watched _The Wire_ but from what I've heard, I feel I need to point out that all of Baltimore is _not_ as bad as that show apparently makes it seem. Again, that's just based on what I've heard about the show.

Sure, Baltimore has some problem areas, just like any modern city. It also has some great areas.

My father was in the Air Force during the Viet Nam war, and every year for the past several years, a bunch of the people he served with would have a reunion. The reunion has been in various locations around the country, and last year, they decided that this year's reunion would be in Baltimore. Would you believe that several people decided not to come, and the reason they gave was that, based on watching _The Wire_, they believed Baltimore to be a dangerous place? These former military men decided the entire city was too rough for them, based on one television show. Or maybe their wives decided for them, who knows. Anyway, the irony of the situation is that the official reunion hotel was actually outside of Baltimore, and most of the group's activities were actually planned for Washington, DC. Furthermore, the touristy areas of Baltimore are relatively safe, just as is probably true in most cities that try to attract tourists.


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## realbrineshrimp (Jun 28, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Ugh. I'm not originally from Baltimore, but my father and his family are, and we live just outside it now. I've been in Baltimore a lot for work-related reasons, usually driving an ambulance. I've never watched _The Wire_ but from what I've heard, I feel I need to point out that all of Baltimore is _not_ as bad as that show apparently makes it seem. Again, that's just based on what I've heard about the show.
> 
> Sure, Baltimore has some problem areas, just like any modern city. It also has some great areas.
> 
> My father was in the Air Force during the Viet Nam war, and every year for the past several years, a bunch of the people he served with would have a reunion. The reunion has been in various locations around the country, and last year, they decided that this year's reunion would be in Baltimore. Would you believe that several people decided not to come, and the reason they gave was that, based on watching _The Wire_, they believed Baltimore to be a dangerous place? These former military men decided the entire city was too rough for them, based on one television show. Or maybe their wives decided for them, who knows. Anyway, the irony of the situation is that the official reunion hotel was actually outside of Baltimore, and most of the group's activities were actually planned for Washington, DC. Furthermore, the touristy areas of Baltimore are relatively safe, just as is probably true in most cities that try to attract tourists.


Haha man, that's terrible. I honestly believe The Wire could've taken place in any major American city with a port though. It's just David Simon knew Baltimore. Baltimore is used as a stand in for the American city in which to showcase its problems and such. Despite this it really, really is a great show and I hope you don't get turned off because Baltimore is the location.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

JJR512 said:


> My father was in the Air Force during the Viet Nam war, and every year for the past several years, a bunch of the people he served with would have a reunion. The reunion has been in various locations around the country, and last year, they decided that this year's reunion would be in Baltimore. Would you believe that several people decided not to come, and the reason they gave was that, based on watching _The Wire_, they believed Baltimore to be a dangerous place?


Well there is that, and the STDs!! 

I hope those that made it had a good time. Before my FIL passed, he hosted such a reunion for his shipmates in Charm City as well.

No one got killed or Gonorrea!!


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

JJR512 said:


> the touristy areas of Baltimore are relatively safe, just as is probably true in most cities that try to attract tourists.


I've been to Baltimore on business a number of times where I always stayed and worked in the inner harbor area. I can't help but remember that on more than one occasion I was cautioned by the hotel staff to avoid straying out of the inner harbor area on foot for reasons of safety.

Cruiser


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## mjc (Nov 11, 2009)

Hmm, that reminds me of staying in Boston. The hotel staff would say "If you walk out of the hotel, turn right. Never left. If you want to go left, we'll get you a taxi."

Plus, they looked at me and my wife like we were deranged libertines when we asked where we could buy some wine (on a Sunday). You can't buy wine on a Sunday. Cripes.

- Mike


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## njkyle (Oct 11, 2009)

mjc said:


> Plus, they looked at me and my wife like we were deranged libertines when we asked where we could buy some wine (on a Sunday). You can't buy wine on a Sunday. Cripes.
> 
> - Mike


I don't think you can complain, based on your stated location. I lived in Ottawa twenty-some years ago. On my first day in Canada (after a long flight) I went to the supermarket to buy some wine and beer. The cashier looked at me as though I were an insane alcoholic. I learned quickly that there were special stores (Brewers Retails?) where the depraved had to go to purchase their drug of choice. And they closed at the very times you needed a drink.

However, a trip across the river to Quebec and it was stocked in every store - next to the baby formula, if they needed the space.


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## mjc (Nov 11, 2009)

Things have lightened up a lot in Ontario. You can buy wine and beer and Sundays, and you no longer have to pay cash, cash, or cash. The wine stores are all glitzy now - you might remember the old ones, where typed lists of wine were on display, but no actual wine. You had to fill out a form, and they would get the wine for you.

However, wine sales are still a government monopoly, and beer sales are a non-government monopoly. Which is completely crazy. Oh well.

- Mike


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

mjc said:


> Hmm, that reminds me of staying in Boston. The hotel staff would say "If you walk out of the hotel, turn right. Never left. If you want to go left, we'll get you a taxi."
> 
> ....- Mike


Reminds me of an experience I had in Detroit, quite some years back. I was lodged at a hotel in downtown Detroit, a few blocks from the Federal building, on business and at the end of the work day, had changed into my exercise gear. As I was exiting the hotel lobby to go out for a run, the desk clerk shouted across the lobby, "Aah, sir, people don't do that around here!" LOL, he didn't seem to care if I went left or right (). I continued on my run but, certainly kept my eye on things going on around me while doing so!


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

The EPA would come after you and DOJ would prosecute you. Unless, there's an interstate environmental crimes unit, in which case you might be prosecuted by PA or MD.

The bigger crime is not talking about clothes. . . .


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

mjc said:


> Hmm, that reminds me of staying in Boston. The hotel staff would say "If you walk out of the hotel, turn right. Never left. If you want to go left, we'll get you a taxi."


That's nothing!  In Johannesburg the hotel staff won't let you leave the hotel at all unless it's to a waiting taxi and even then two big doormen will escort you from the hotel to the taxi to ensure you don't get mugged! That's how dangerous Joburg is!


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## Regillus (Mar 15, 2011)

Ok; you really want an answer to this? Question 1: Where did the trash land? Not in MD; therefore no littering. The trash landed in PA; therefore littering citation written by PA police officer. Question 2: If you committed a serious offense such as murder or armed robbery in MD but within sight of a PA police officer; the PA police could go after you under the theory of "hot pursuit." If you committed any of a multitude of lesser offenses the PA police would most likely just ignore it.


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## Apatheticviews (Mar 21, 2010)

mjc said:


> This thread has gone way off course. Let's focus on the important part: _What shoes would you wear?_


For killing, Being Killed, or Detaining someone who killed someone?


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