# Service and dedication to the U.S.



## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

It seems that we have many newbies (and a few older members) that want to claim that they are dedicated to the U.S. while claiming others are anti-american....

I agree that I am against many of the current thoughts of American politics. I disagree that this makes me "Anti-American". I served my country with honor. I served my country within the ideology that the U.S. was "the best", I served my country Under the most patriotic thoughts that one could have. I was awarded certain medals (perhaps wrongly). Can we allow a realistic party to judge such? Whille I have disagreed in general with his ideology, I give my respect to Eagle. I will send him my DD214 as an attachment. This should at least allow that what I have said is true.<i give it up to eagle. Will anyone else be willing to do the same? Come now. Just a simple form to a non-concerned member.,.. Again, it is up to him to decide if mhe wants to get involved and there is no offense should he decide otherwise...


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'll offer up my DVD box set of "Missing in Action" movies starring Chuck Norris.


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## Langham (Nov 7, 2012)

Opposing your own country's policies, attacking its political parties, also to some extent the way of life of that country, is not necessarily by any means incompatible with being a patriot. I myself have been quite dissatisfied with the state of affairs in the UK for, oh quite a long time, since at least the 1930s in fact, which is a long time before I was born, although so far I have not quite been driven to the point of seeking refuge or asylum in Switzerland, which I assume is your case.

Being American one might expect to encounter occasional anti-Americanism from time to time, I'm sorry to say. Recent American foreign policy - in which my country has often been complicit, viz. the ongoing debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Middle East generally - is widely criticised, sometimes for sound reasons, sometimes not.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

voicing dissent does not make you anti-American. everybody does it in some way and it's one of the reasons why we have the 1st Amendment. I find it especially nauseating when some veterans (and non-veterans alike) question the patriotism of others based on differences of opinion. 'Merka, f*ck yeah!


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Criticism of the US is in no way anti-American or unpatriotic, regardless of how vitriolic the language. Thank God we have had so many brave servicemen who sacrificed to preserve our ability to criticize our government without fear of reprisal. I include J1M in that group of servicemen that I salute.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

I also include justonemore in my thanks to all servicemen. I also disagree with him that criticism of one's country is only allowed if one served in the military, because the logical extension of that is that you can't criticize the president unless you have been one, general unless you have been one, on down the line.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Rational criticisms of one's country are absolutely not incompatible with patriotism. In fact I would be rather suspicious of any man who claimed to be a patriot yet did not wish to see his nation improved.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

There does seem to be a pattern, however, of accusing those who aren't totally supportive of the US in every sense as being anti-American. This is especially true if the accused isn't American themselves. There also seems to be a pattern of accusing those who are critical of Israel as anti-semitic. However, if other countries are criticised there doesn't seem to be the same anti-whatever accusation from any of our membership, which is curious.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

I think the pattern is more like certain folks criticizing the US claim that folks of a different opinion are calling them anti-American by simply disagreeing. Not the case in every instance, but definitely not uncommon.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

Chouan said:


> There does seem to be a pattern, however, of accusing those who aren't totally supportive of the US in every sense as being anti-American. This is especially true if the accused isn't American themselves. There also seems to be a pattern of accusing those who are critical of Israel as anti-semitic. However, if other countries are criticised there doesn't seem to be the same anti-whatever accusation from any of our membership, which is curious.


Try being Southern and being critical of a black man or woman.

And there are wide sections of the US press who portrays anyone who disagree with anything that Obama does as being motivated solely by racism. Same with anyone who is critical of our plainly broken immigration policy.

I will also say that there is plenty of actual Anti Americanism out there as well whenever America makes a tough decision or stands up for herself.

It just gets annoying.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Tilton said:


> I think the pattern is more like certain folks criticizing the US claim that folks of a different opinion are calling them anti-American by simply disagreeing. Not the case in every instance, but definitely not uncommon.


I would suggest that my statement is more typical. I would further suggest that if you put anti-American, or anti-America into the forum search you will see that it is far more used as an accusation than you seem to think.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

vpkozel said:


> Try being Southern and being critical of a black man or woman.
> 
> And there are wide sections of the US press who portrays anyone who disagree with anything that Obama does as being motivated solely by racism. Same with anyone who is critical of our plainly broken immigration policy.
> 
> ...


By "tough decision" do you mean a decision that is perceived as good for America, but not good for others?


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

Chouan said:


> By "tough decision" do you mean a decision that is perceived as good for America, but not good for others?


Well, in the end it probably means taking action of some sort. And I woukd submit that the US has put aside what is best for her more often than any other superpower in history. And I say that not just as an American but as a student of history.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

justonemore said:


> It seems that we have many newbies (and a few older members) that want to claim that they are dedicated to the U.S. while claiming others are anti-american....
> 
> I agree that I am against many of the current thoughts of American politics. I disagree that this makes me "Anti-American". I served my country with honor. I served my country within the ideology that the U.S. was "the best", I served my country Under the most patriotic thoughts that one could have. I was awarded certain medals (perhaps wrongly). Can we allow a realistic party to judge such? Whille I have disagreed in general with his ideology, I give my respect to Eagle. I will send him my DD214 as an attachment. This should at least allow that what I have said is true.<i give it up to eagle. Will anyone else be willing to do the same? Come now. Just a simple form to a non-concerned member.,.. Again, it is up to him to decide if mhe wants to get involved and there is no offense should he decide otherwise...


First let me say to justonemore that I am honored and truly humbled by your comments pertaining to me. You may be assured that I hold you in similar regard. I am sorry things have gotten to the point in the Interchamge postings that it became necessary for any member to feel the need to defend their integrity. In the past we may have disagreed on issues, but we have, for the most part(), done so as gentlemen and I will tell you and all others, I have never once doubted the integrity/honesty of your comments. While I appreciate your offer to send me your DD Form 214, that is absolutely not necessary for you or any other member.

When a member say's something in a post, as a matter of practice I assume it to be true and I do wish all other members would try to apply that standard of evaluation. If something is ever finally proven to be incorrect or false, let it be so. But until that happens, it behooves all of us to just show a little faith! That's what gentlemen do. As some have noted, I have probably disagreed more strongly with justonemore and Chouan's positions on certain issues, than those offered by others and in many cases we have ended our exchanges by agreeing to continue to disagree. However, in every exchange I have been impressed with and highly respect the quality of justonemore and Chouan's intellect, the logic in so many of their arguments and their obvious debating skills. While I cannot say I've never lobbed an uncalled for SAR (smart a**ed remark) out of frustration, I do mightily try to keep it polite and civil and do wish we could all try to do the same. This is surprisingly easy to accomplish if we simply confine our comments to the issues under discussion/positions being expressed, rather than attacking the individual making those comments.

Thank you again for your kind thoughts, justonemore (and for the opportunity to climb up on my soap box!).


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Chouan said:


> I would suggest that my statement is more typical. I would further suggest that if you put anti-American, or anti-America into the forum search you will see that it is far more used as an accusation than you seem to think.


I'm not so sure you actually searched those terms before posting your suggestion that I do so. You should try it and see what you come up with.

Also, I would suggest that using "I would suggest" does not have nearly the impressive impact and condescending tone that you think it does, but _my God_, do you keep trying to make it work.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Tilton said:


> I'm not so sure you actually searched those terms before posting your suggestion that I do so. You should try it and see what you come up with.
> 
> _*Also, I would suggest that using "I would suggest" does not have nearly the impressive impact and condescending tone that you think it does*_, but _my God_, do you keep trying to make it work.


Curious that you should think that a normal expression is intended to impress or be condescending. I would suggest that you regard its use as a standard form of expressing an opinion. Any condescension is in your own mind.
Actually, I didn't search. I, for example, have never referred to myself as "anti-American", mostly because I'm not, but I and my views have been so described.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> First let me say to justonemore that I am honored and truly humbled by your comments pertaining to me. You may be assured that I hold you in similar regard. I am sorry things have gotten to the point in the Interchamge postings that it became necessary for any member to feel the need to defend their integrity. In the past we may have disagreed on issues, but we have, for the most part(), done so as gentlemen and I will tell you and all others, I have never once doubted the integrity/honesty of your comments. While I appreciate your offer to send me your DD Form 214, that is absolutely not necessary for you or any other member.
> 
> When a member say's something in a post, as a matter of practice I assume it to be true and I do wish all other members would try to apply that standard of evaluation. If something is ever finally proven to be incorrect or false, let it be so. But until that happens, it behooves all of us to just show a little faith! That's what gentlemen do. As some have noted, I have probably disagreed more strongly with justonemore and Chouan's positions on certain issues, than those offered by others and in many cases we have ended our exchanges by agreeing to continue to disagree. However, in every exchange I have been impressed with and highly respect the quality of justonemore and Chouan's intellect, the logic in so many of their arguments and their obvious debating skills. While I cannot say I've never lobbed an uncalled for SAR (smart a**ed remark) out of frustration, I do mightily try to keep it polite and civil and do wish we could all try to do the same. This is surprisingly easy to accomplish if we simply confine our comments to the issues under discussion/positions being expressed, rather than attacking the individual making those comments.
> 
> Thank you again for your kind thoughts, justonemore (and for the opportunity to climb up on my soap box!).


Very kind of you to say so. I would like to think that I don't stoop to using insults, although I have been a bit scathing of people at times. It is possible to have differing, even opposing views on some subjects without necessarily disliking the other person, indeed, whilst respecting the other person. Most of the time!


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Chouan said:


> Curious that you should think that a normal expression is intended to impress or be condescending. I would suggest that you regard its use as a standard form of expressing an opinion. Any condescension is in your own mind.
> Actually, I didn't search. I, for example, have never referred to myself as "anti-American", mostly because I'm not, but I and my views have been so described.


Like I said, you should try it then just to see what you actually find versus what you imagine you will find..

Perhaps it is a difference in British English and American English, but it comes across awfully pretentious and exceedingly passive aggressive and you deploy it quite liberally which indicates to me that, in your mind, it holds a certain value over the hundreds of other phrases with similar meanings. Beyond that, the way you use it is a distinctly passive way of introducing something, recommending something, or prompting some sort of action - not indicating an opinion.


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## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

justonemore said:


> It seems that we have many newbies (and a few older members) that want to claim that they are dedicated to the U.S. while claiming others are anti-american....
> 
> I agree that I am against many of the current thoughts of American politics. I disagree that this makes me "Anti-American". I served my country with honor. I served my country within the ideology that the U.S. was "the best", I served my country Under the most patriotic thoughts that one could have. I was awarded certain medals (perhaps wrongly). Can we allow a realistic party to judge such? Whille I have disagreed in general with his ideology, I give my respect to Eagle. I will send him my DD214 as an attachment. This should at least allow that what I have said is true.<i give it up to eagle. Will anyone else be willing to do the same? Come now. Just a simple form to a non-concerned member.,.. Again, it is up to him to decide if mhe wants to get involved and there is no offense should he decide otherwise...


I already told you, if you want to settle anything, PM me. I have already apologized for the manner in which I responded to your comments. Not much more I can do. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with your DD 214 either. PM me if you really want to settle whatever it is you are trying to settle. From this moment on, I am not commenting on anything we have discussed previous on any format other than PM. I will argue with you civilly as long as you are doing the same.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

Back on topic, I think the only time I would consider a person or group anti-American is when threats to harm or incite insurrection are made against a sitting PoTUS. I didn't think Bush was a good President but I sure as hell didn't wish bad things upon him. He seems like the kinda guy you could have a beer with. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

gaseousclay said:


> He [G.W. Bush] seems like the kinda guy you could have a beer with.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what I was told by someone who claimed to know. She did not, however, think much of his job performance as president.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Tilton said:


> Like I said, you should try it then just to see what you actually find versus what you imagine you will find..
> 
> Perhaps it is a difference in British English and American English, but it comes across awfully pretentious and exceedingly passive aggressive and you deploy it quite liberally which indicates to me that, in your mind, it holds a certain value over the hundreds of other phrases with similar meanings. Beyond that, the way you use it is a distinctly passive way of introducing something, recommending something, or prompting some sort of action - not indicating an opinion.


I suppose my academic training taught me that approach, that "I think...." or similar, introduces an opinion rather than an interpretation. The analogy being opinion is "bloke in pub" whereas interpretation is balanced argument. I certainly have and have had, no intention of being pretentious or passive aggressive.

An example of the "anti-American" accusation would be when the accusation was made that I was anti-American when I suggested that "Dugout Doug" wasn't a hero.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Chouan said:


> ......
> .........
> An example of the "anti-American" accusation would be when the accusation was made that I was anti-American when I suggested that "Dugout Doug" wasn't a hero.


...and a good example of one of those "smart a**ed remarks" I referenced in my earlier post. A less than desirable response for sure, but I was quite taken aback by the suggestion that one of this country's (arguably) greatest military leaders and most decorated heroes (recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor, three Distinguished Service Crosses, seven Silver Stars, multiple Purple Hearts, and the list goes on) was a coward. The understanding of his actions that I was taught was that he was ordered to (personally) withdraw by the White House at that time and had resisted those orders as long as was feasibly possible. Claiming you were "anti-American" was a quicker and easier response, but certainly not the best one! 

PS: My intent in the response above was to acknowledge responsibility for a less than desirable (earlier reply) reply and was not to derail this excellent thread down a less productive path!


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Chouan said:


> I suppose my academic training taught me that approach, that "I think...." or similar, introduces an opinion rather than an interpretation. The analogy being opinion is "bloke in pub" whereas interpretation is balanced argument. I certainly have and have had, no intention of being pretentious or passive aggressive.


Fair enough. Simply knowing that you can verbalize exactly why you use it makes it un-annoying. As I said, could _definitely_ be an American/British English difference. At least for an American, frequent use of "I would submit" and "I would suggest" tends to come off in a distinctly haughty, pretentious, passive-aggressive way that also gives the impression the speaker wants to avoid directness.

Of cause, that could suhtainly only apply to folks 'round 'ese pahts.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Geesh. I wanted onl to have service members respect the fact that other service members have sacrificed their time and energy for others...I went to Eagle because he is a senior member here that has more that served his country. I have argued against his police service *more so as to the police unions and their desire to denz 2nd adm. rights.(...I have never claimed that his militarz service was incorrect... I have seen verz little anti /americism versus critism over America-s political ideology. same with Israel.. Not agreeinbg with the politicians has nothing to do with being anti...xxxx...zzz...yyy..


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

justonemore said:


> Geesh. I wanted onl to have service members respect the fact that other service members have sacrificed their time and energy for others...I went to Eagle because he is a senior member here that has more that served his country. I have argued against his police service *more so as to the police unions and their desire to denz 2nd adm. rights.(...I have never claimed that his militarz service was incorrect... I have seen verz little anti /americism versus critism over America-s political ideology. same with Israel.. Not agreeinbg with the politicians has nothing to do with being anti...xxxx...zzz...yyy..


How many scotches have you had this afternoon?


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Tilton said:


> How many scotches have you had this afternoon?


good repl. and of course @[email protected]


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

justonemore said:


> good repl. and of course @[email protected]


Yes, OT but probably still @[email protected] Or, did you just switch from a QWERTY keyboard Blackberry to a touchscreen phone?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Tilton said:


> I think the pattern is more like certain folks criticizing the US claim that folks of a different opinion are calling them anti-American by simply disagreeing. Not the case in every instance, but definitely not uncommon.


Guilty conscience, that is!!


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> ...and a good example of one of those "smart a**ed remarks" I referenced in my earlier post. A less than desirable response for sure, but I was quite taken aback by the suggestion that one of this country's (arguably) greatest military leaders and most decorated heroes (recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor, three Distinguished Service Crosses, seven Silver Stars, multiple Purple Hearts, and the list goes on) was a coward. The understanding of his actions that I was taught was that he was ordered to (personally) withdraw by the White House at that time and had resisted those orders as long as was feasibly possible. Claiming you were "anti-American" was a quicker and easier response, but certainly not the best one!
> 
> PS: My intent in the response above was to acknowledge responsibility for a less than desirable (earlier reply) reply and was not to derail this excellent thread down a less productive path!


I think you'll find, if you look back at the thread in question, that I never suggested that he was a coward, just that he wasn't the hero that some Americans think he was. The epithet "Dugout Doug" was one coined and used by the soldiers under his command, Americans and Philipinos, which rather suggests what they thought of him. That he bravely used tanks, cavalry and tear gas against the Bonus Marchers, and was keen to be shown doing so, makes him a dubious character at best, in my view.


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