# Waistcoat vs. Vest



## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

How does a waistcoat differ from a vest? Would one be preferable to the other with a black tuxedo? Would wool be preferable to silk, solid to a pattern, black to silver, gray or red? I don't think one I just turned up with handwarmer pockets would be appropriate, but it might be better than a tie...


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

It's a matter of where one lives. In the US, a vest is worn under your suit jacket and a waistcoat doesn't exist except in the jargon of pretentious people like me. In the UK, a waistcoat is worn under one's suit jacket and a vest is an undergarment. In the US, we call 'em wife-beaters. With a DJ, any of the alternatives you mentioned would do very well. Just don't put the wife-beater on over your dress shirt.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

The black waistcoat is classic, white nearly so, and black with white works well. Along with your square and hose, the waistcoat is one of three places you can also choose to add color your dinner jacket - dark red is a nice change of pace.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Surely never a white waistcoat with black tie...


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

Henry said:


> Surely never a white waistcoat with black tie...


I believe that His Holiness the PoW/DoW was known to do it.


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## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Henry said:


> Surely never a white waistcoat with black tie...


I first read about it in a Debrett's guide. Surely that's adequate authority.

They are also pictured in Apparel Arts.

When short coats were the new thing, men routinely wore their white waistcoats. The black ones came later.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Henry said:


> Surely never a white waistcoat with black tie...


If you look at old pictures from the late Victorian to Edwardian era they nearly always wear white waistcoats with their "informal dinner dress" (aka black tie). Manton likes the look.

And yes waistcoat is British English. Over the waistcoat you wear a coat. Over the coat you wear an overcoat.

For the sake of consistency of terminology I think if you say "coat" in place of "jacket" you should say "waistcoat" in place of "vest".


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Oddly though, Savile Row tailors almost never say waistcoat but nearly always "vest." The people who make them are called vestmakers, not waistcoatmakers. Similarly, they always call a jacket a coat.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

manton said:


> Oddly though, Savile Row tailors almost never say waistcoat but nearly always "vest." The people who make them are called vestmakers, not waistcoatmakers. Similarly, they always call a jacket a coat.


Next thing they'll be talking about tuxedoes and heaven forbid "tuxes"


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Sator said:


> Next thing they'll be talking about tuxedoes and heaven forbid "tuxes"


That will never happen.

In the case of "vest" and "coat", it's not that they adapted Americanisms. For one thing, Americans never refer to a jacket as a coat. For another, Savile Rown has been using those terms for ages. You hear them less on the sales side, but the makers always say "vest" and "coat," and so do tailors and cutters when they talk amongst themselves.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Funny that. If you look at really old British cutter's manuals eg Edward Minister's "The Complete Guide to Practical Cutting (1853)", Wyatt's "The Tailor's Friendly Instructor (1822)", or Walker's "The Tailor's Masterpiece: All Kind of Coats (1838)" they always write "waistcoat". The word "vest" never even appears once - until you look at old American cutter's manuals. 

I had heard that in the old days at A&S if you ever called a 'coat' a 'jacket' you would be repremanded immediately: "Sir! - that is not a jacket - that is a coat".


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

_Tailor & Cutter's _1936 manual calls it a vest.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

manton said:


> _Tailor & Cutter's _1936 manual calls it a vest.


I don't own anything that 'modern'. What's the use of a manual without a good pattern for a frock coat. :icon_smile_wink: Devere, 1866 also only uses "waistcoat".

Oddly enough one American text by W. S. Salibury (_Salisbury's System of Measurement and Drafting, 1865_) talks about draughting "over and under-coats" but the section on waistcoats is entitled "Waistcoat or Vest System". Salisbury proceeds to use the term "vest" consistently in the main text that follows.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Why is it dinnner _jacket_ and not dinner _coat?_


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Matt S said:


> Why is it dinnner _jacket_ and not dinner _coat?_


I think "jacket" is the more accurate term and "coat" is more of an insider terminology idiosyncrasy. The general public always calls it a dinner jacket, not a coat, so SR bows to that inevitability. Still, when you place an order, the cutter hands off the parts to someone he calls a coatmaker.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Sator said:


> Funny that. If you look at really old British cutter's manuals eg Edward Minister's "The Complete Guide to Practical Cutting (1853)", Wyatt's "The Tailor's Friendly Instructor (1822)", or Walker's "The Tailor's Masterpiece: All Kind of Coats (1838)" they always write "waistcoat". The word "vest" never even appears once - until you look at old American cutter's manuals.


It's beyond the scope of the trade, but in _Robinson Crusoe_ (1719), Defoe mentions Crusoe making for himself a _waistcoat_ out of goatskin.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

So far as anyone knows, the garment was created by a decree of Charles II on October 8, 1666. He called it a "vest."


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Don't remember where I read this but vest was first, then the britts started also calling them waistcoats.

The names are interchangeable.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

manton said:


> For one thing, Americans never refer to a jacket as a coat.


We do where I live. Anything -- even indoor garments like this -- that hangs below the waist is a _coat_, while those garments that stop at the waist are _jackets_. (This isn't one hundred percent, though: I do sometimes hear _suit jacket_ around here, though I don't believe I've ever heard anybody in these parts say _sport jacket_; for us, it's a _sport coat_.)


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Teacher said:


> We do where I live. Anything -- even indoor garments like this -- that hangs below the waist is a _coat_, while those garments that stop at the waist are _jackets_. (This isn't one hundred percent, though: I do sometimes hear _suit jacket_ around here, though I don't believe I've ever heard anybody in these parts say _sport jacket_; for us, it's a _sport coat_.)


Yeah, I overstated that. "Sportcoat" was common where I grew up, too. But I have found, at least on the east and west coasts, that "coat" usually means outerwear, and "jacket" means the thing that goes over your shirt (and perhaps vest).


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I've been to certain restaurants that state "jacket required" but never "coat required."


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

manton said:


> So far as anyone knows, the garment was created by a decree of Charles II on October 8, 1666. He called it a "vest."


Isn't it the case that back in the wayback a gentleman's vest and knee britches were known collectively as his "smallclothes"?

Now there's a sartorial term whose desuetude I find dolorous.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Isn't it the case that back in the wayback a gentleman's vest and knee britches were known collectively as his "smallclothes"?


Not in the case of the vest, if the historians interpret Charles' decree correctly. Pepys describes it pretty minutely, and it's clearly outerwear. The original was much longer what what we see today.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Matt S said:


> Why is it dinnner _jacket_ and not dinner _coat?_


Very good question. Originally it was called a "dress lounge". The "jacket" is just an evening version of a "lounge coat". So stricty speaking it should be just another coat.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Matt S said:


> I've been to certain restaurants that state "jacket required" but never "coat required."


I've been to several over the years, in a number of different places that stated, "coat and tie required". Also, in the southwest where I grew up, in the '50s we referred to "sportscoat" and "suit coat", and jackets were generally outerwear, such as a "leather jacket", or the iconic "red jacket" worn by James Dean in "Rebel Without a Cause". I can still hear my mother: "put on your jacket, it's chilly outside".

AND THIS IS MY 1000TH POST!


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

*Congratulations rip!*

Around here ( Chicago) it's a suit _coat_, and a sport coat. A jacket is short as Teacher mentions above.


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## smlaz (May 13, 2005)

*Just ordered vests*

The last thing I did at my office on Friday was order two vests on closeout from Paul Frederick, one a goatskin, the other a country check. Will let you know about fit, quality, etc. when I get 'em.
Cheers,
Steve


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

manton said:


> Not in the case of the vest, if the historians interpret Charles' decree correctly. Pepys describes it pretty minutely, and it's clearly outerwear. The original was much longer what what we see today.


Indeed. It seems "smallclothes" was a synonym for knee britches:

https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/smallclothes


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

I know I'm late here, but here's some info from The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes, chapter on Vests (still available for purchase!! :icon_smile_big: ):

_The Vest is the only men's garment to have been created by royal proclamation on Sunday October 7, 1666. Although vests have been part of men's attire for warmth and fashion since early history._​_A vest (also known as a waistcoat and/or a "weskit") is a sleeveless article of clothing that covers the upper body. It is functional as well as fashionable since it keeps you warm, and can provide protection (bulletproof vests), but leaves your arms and hands free for activity._​_The word "vest" comes from the Latin "vestis" meaning "garment" and developed through Italian "vesta" and French "veste" both meaning a robe. It's also where we get the word "vestments" as in religious robes._​*HISTORY:*​_English King, Charles II, introduced the vest or waistcoat in England though Royal Proclamation on October 7, 1666. We know the exact date from the diary of civil servant Samuel Pepys. _​_It was a simple straight cut, and close fitting garment made from black cloth with a white silk lining. Promoted personally by the king, it was soon popular with everyone. But the political purpose was to undermine French fashion influence in England and by the vests simple lines was to defy the extravagant dictates of Versailles._​_The vest was based on a style brought back to England by visitors to the Persian court of Shah Abbas. That model had sleeves and was longer than the coat worn over it. The vest evolved shorter to above the knee, then to mid-thigh, to the top of the thigh, and finally by 1790 to the waistline. It became sleeveless around the 1750's. _​_The simple and sober beginnings were all but forgotten by the 18th century when the waistcoat became a brilliant display of luxury fabrics and detail such as bold buttons._​And this is from the chapter on Sport Jackets (also known as Sport Coats!):

_The word "jacket" is from the Old French word "jackquette" which is the diminutive of "jaque". The name comes from a nickname for French peasants (the first name "Jacques") and originated from the Arabic "sakk" meaning "coat of mail"_​_*Coat of mail: *Flexible armor composed of small overlapping metal rings, loops of chain, or scales [Middle English, from Old French maile, from Latin macula, meaning "mesh"._​_So a jacket was the name for a short version of the full coat of mail. It described a coarse and cheap medieval coat of defense, especially one made of leather._​


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

Not to dispute Andy, But the jaque and the English jack refered to a padded coat of linen, some of which were 20 layers thick. These were worn by foot soldiers in place of a coat of maille.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Around my part of the country (Southern California) "sport coat" and "sports jacket" are pretty much used interchangeably, with (I think) the former term being more commonly used. I just queried some of my co-workers, and they split on their terminology.

I am rather reminded of the old Marty Robbins song of my youth, "A White Sport Coat and a Pink Carnation." Can't get much more American than that!


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## windsor (Dec 12, 2006)

During WW2 we had the Eisenhower jacket,(waist length) and the Duffle coat, made popular by Montgomery and knee length..approximately. Mantons comment about "coat" being used by the cutters and other tradesmen may place that term in the category of "jargon". At least when they use it.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

I just found a copy of Cunnington's "A Dictionary of English Costume 900 - 1900". They say that the term 'vest' started to be used synonymously with 'waistcoat' from the 19th century. From the 17th century onwards it had denoted an under-waistcoat worn for warmth by men and women. In the early 19th C. it was a long French corset. 

Waistcoats apparently were first worn in the 16th C to 1668. It was waist-length (sometimes called a 'petticoat' ie a short coat). It was made with or without sleeves. It started to be denote an under-coat from 1668 onwards. The sleeves were discarded c. 1750.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Andy said:


> _The vest was based on a style brought back to England by visitors to the Persian court of Shah Abbas. That model had sleeves and was longer than the coat worn over it. _​​


​
Very interesting. So the model for the vest seems to be derived from the shameez (a word whose root is the same as that of the French "chemise") of the "kalwar shameez," or traditional loose-fitting long top and long trousers combo (both cool and Islamically modest to wear) still seen often in the Near East and South Asia. Western colonialists adopted a version of the kalwar shameez for lounge- and sleepwear that became our familiar pajamas.

And of course it was the Persians who invented pants in the first place. I don't have the citation at my fingertips, but I recall reading in Plutarch's life of Alexander the Great that his men spoke derisively of his doing what we would call "going native" while in Persia, citing as proof that Alexander had delved too deep into barbarian ways the facts that he not only taken a Persian woman as a wife (something he encouraged his men to do as well) but had also gone in for wearing perfume and long pants, when everybody (or at least everybody Macedonian) was supposed to know that wearing a kilt was the true mark of a civilized man.


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## David V (Sep 19, 2005)

I think you can trace the vest back to the 14th century pourpoint (for points)which was a sleeveless, laced fronted garment worn under a cotehardie or gown. Ones hose were pointed (tied) to the pourpoint. Later, in the 15th century, sleeved boublets were used for pointing the hose and were also worn under an over gown. in the 16th century the over gown was left open and the doublet again became sleeveless.


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