# Canvas, half-canvas, etc. explained



## jefferyd

OK I know it's been done to death, but I still feel that a lot of people (including in the industry, so don't feel bad) don't understand what all this canvas stuff is about. So here is my two cents worth about manufactured tailored jackets.

Canvas is a slightly confusing term because it can describe several things; the wool canvas front used in full and half-canvas garments, as well as the stuff that is used in making a chest piece. So the sake of this post, I will refer to the soft-ish wool warp canvas which is found on the entire length of the front of a canvas garment as *wool canvas*, and is shown in blue in the accompanying diagram (assuming I get it up right). This is usually a wool warp with horse hair , cotton, rayon, and other things woven into the weft to give stability across the garment. There are several different types of canvas used in combination to create a *chest* *piece*, and in North America this is commonly referred to as *hymo*, *wrapped hair* and *haircloth*. This is covered in felt or domette to protect the wearer. If you have ever felt plasticy things sticking out of the chest of your garment, this is actually most likely real horse tail, which is a very springy substance used in haircloth to reinforce the chest and shoulder. The chest piece in my diagram is a light grey. Fusible (that dreaded stuff) is shown in red, the garment cloth is shown in dark grey.










*FULL CANVAS CONSTRUCTION*
Hymo, wrapped hair, haircloth and felt are cut and prepared according to the designer's instructions, then attached to a large piece of wool canvas and padstitched together. The result is what we call a canvas front. Once the darts and pockets have been made and the armhole taped, the jacket front is basted to the canvas; the process takes some time compared to just laying down some fusible and running it through a fusing machine, and requires a certain amount of skill to do it correctly- a well-made fused garment will fit better than a poorly basted canvas garment so a lot of care must be taken when basting the canvas. The diagram shows that there is no fusible on the front at all. Once the canvas has been basted, most manufatcurers do the pad-stitching on a special machine that rolls the lapel, runs a line of blindstitching, stops, goes back to the beginning, rolls the lapel again, and does this until the lapel has been padded. Sounds fantastic (and it is) but a pair of these (one for the left and one for the right) can cost around $80,000 (yes, eighty THOUSAND). The tailor shop on the corner will NOT have these machines. The bridle tape is applied along the roll line, pulling as it is basted so that the roll line will not gape away from the chest. This will sometimes cause puckering on the jacket along the roll line but that is fine as it is hidden under the lapel. The drawing of the roll line is consistent through the canvas and the cloth since both are done at the same time. Samuelsohn, Hickey, Canali, Zegna, etc. (not Z Zegna)

*HALF CANVAS CONSTRUCTION*
As you can see from the diagram, the front is fused, but not the lapel area. This is because the canvas will not extend all the way down the front and stopping the fusing half way would leave an impression. Those who sneer at the idea of fusing because of delamination have little or nothing to worry about these days- technology has improved greatly, and correctly applied fusing will not bubble. Improper application or overtly harsh treatment by dry cleaners may still be a problem, but it is extremely rare these days.

The canvas front resembles a full canvas front except that it stops just below the pocket. This saves some time and material, but still providing the benefits of a properly padded lapel and stability in the front chest, right down to the pocket. The padding and bridle are done in the same manner as the full front and so is a decent trade-off when budget is an issue. Joseph Abboud, Coppley, some Jack Victor, among others.

*PADDED LAPEL*
This is a technique that Hartmarx claims to have patented, but so many manufacturers do it I'm not so sure about it. The fusible is the same as for a half-canvas garment, except the wool canvas in the shape of the lapel is inserted under the fusible along the rool line as it is being fed into the fusing machine. This is important because the chest piece does not have to be basted on to the front this way; the lapel is padded and then the chest piece is attached. There are variations, but most manufacturers use a technique like this to apply the chest piece; the bridle tape has fusible resin on one side- starting at the top, the 1" or so wide tape is applied to both the chest piece and the front- half inch on the chest piece and half inch on the front, fusing the first few inches of the roll line without pulling. The operator works heir way down the roll line, this time pulling for the next few inches to draw the roll line in, then fixing the last few inches without pulling. The chest piece is now attaced only at the roll line; the garment is flipped over, placed on a large press from which has a shape roughly like that of the finished garment, and the armhole is then stapled temporarily in place- using the form allows the operator to place excess faric where it is needed, to cover the chest, for example. The armhole is then sewn in place through the chest piece, either all the way or only partly up the armhole. This unsexy method of attaching the chest piece eliminates the basting operations and makes it a simple operation to perform.

This is a great time saver but there is one thing that I don't like about the way this is done by most makers; the canvas used in the lapel-only method is usually a LOT softer than the full or half-canvas method because in the first two, after pad-stitching, the seam allowances of the canvas are trimmed away by hand, a very time-consuming operation which avoids having the bulky canvas caught in the seam, making a nice thin edge. The canvas of the lapel-only version is usually left in the seam allowance to save the time required to trim it away and for this reason it has to be very soft; you then lose the great loft in the roll provided by a heavier canvas. However, it is still better than a flat fused lapel and gives a nicer roll to an otherwise more affordable garment.

*FULLY FUSED*
There is no wool canvas on this garment. The chest piece is applied to the front in the same manner as the padded lapel garment.

Not everyone can afford canvas and its variations. No, let me rephrase. Comparatively few CAN afford canvas and its variations which is why there are so many fused garments on the market.

I hope this is a little clearer now. If anyone is interested in seeing photos, let me know and I'll put some up somewhere.


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## cvac

Photos would be great, though you should also post this in the Fashion Forum as well.

There are two other possible constructions that I know of:


a completely unstructured jacket with no interlining whatsoever


a half-canvas jacket with no interlining or fusible or anything below the half-canvas - just empty space in there.


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## a tailor

do you have inside photos of a 1/2 canvas? 
i still cant see the advantage.
as i said before i have never seen a half canvas. but if its true then i will believe. 
i never said it cant be done. just that it dose not seem practical.


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## fullgrain

Thanks, great stuff. 

Question, though. I wasn't aware that 1/2-canvassed jackets had fusing in the chest as well as below. (On mine, I can feel the fusing under the garment front in the front quarters, but not in the chest area.) I now understand tailor's previous comments about having never seen a 1/2-canvassed jacket, only fused and full. If there is fusing in the chest, then what is the advantage of having canvas there as well, other than a padded lapel? It would seem it's still being given its structure (and stability) by the fusing and that you don't get the advantages of a basted canvas chest.


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## Peak and Pine

Wow. That's great. Thanks much. (If you haven't elsewhere here, could you share with us a bit about your professional involvement with all this, or are you just a well-researched cloth junkie?)​


fullgrain said:


> Question, though. I wasn't aware that 1/2-canvassed jackets had fusing in the chest as well as below. (On mine, I can feel the fusing under the garment front in the front quarters, but not in the chest area.) I now understand tailor's previous comments about having never seen a 1/2-canvassed jacket, only fused and full. If there is fusing in the chest, then what is the advantage of having canvas there as well, other than a padded lapel? It would seem it's still being given its structure (and stability) by the fusing and that you don't get the advantages of a basted canvas chest.


Yes, your comments on this please. I believe_ A tailor_ holds that there's actually no such thing as half-canvas and what folks who think they have one are feeling is the chestpiece within the lining, not canvas.​


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## Sir Walter

Well done. Please continue with more photos and additional information. I thoroughly enjoyed your post. Additionally, I would think a half canvassed chest peice would eliminate the possibleity of bubles in the chest area that remain possible with a fully fused garment. I recently had breakfast with a good friend of mine who was wearing a BB fused suit which had the bubbles. I realize technology has improved but if or when the bubbles come they are there to stay, and the garment looks awful.


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## DerekHowlett

Thanks for the awesome information. :icon_smile:


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## Peak and Pine

Sir Walter said:


> I realize technology has improved but if or when the bubbles come they are there to stay, and the garment looks awful.


I've had good luck with using a water spray and a hot iron while holding the cloth quite taut. Believe it liquifies the fusing glue some and enables it to be reset when the iron's removed and the cloth cools.​


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## jefferyd

OK, Idea Biella is not until next week so I have a little time.

First, some of the components ina canvas front. The small piece to the left is a 21 pick haircloth shoulder reinforcement- the dark grey is horse tail and is VERY springy. The larger white piece is wrapped hair- every other pick is horse tail wrapped in cotton. Still springy, but soft enough to use in the whole chest. The big piece is wool canvas. Hair from the mane, which is softer, is woven through the weft. No man-made substance has yet been able to recreate the natural properties of horse hair so even though it is very expensive, we still make suits with it. Once of the reasons we might use it in the chest and part way down the front is that fusing will never really provide the same support as canvas will.










Here is that same canvas, in the front of a jacket. Notice how I have trimmed away the seam allowances of the canvas. I will late catch a tape in the front seam which I will then fell to the canvas, holding it all together. Also notice that the padding was done by hand.










This is a fused garment with canvas in the lapel only, before being pad stitched.










This is a similar garment with the chest piece applied.










The pad stitching was done on this machine (this is one of a pair) Notice the roller over which the lapel is rolled as it is stitched. All automatic but very expensive.










Now a photo of an old half-canvas garment I took apart. I don't like showing this one because it is not the best example- it does not go all the way below the pocket, in order to save money. However, notice how the canvas that is in the lapel is the same material that extends down the front and that it is in one piece.










Now we get technical.

Aside from the benefits of having canvas in a large part of the garment, which gives better support than fusing, as I baste the cloth into the canvas, I will also tack the breast pocket, the dart underlay, and the lower pocket into the canvas- we like to have everything tacked together and in place so little moves- this way things hold their shape over wear- better garments are basted or blindstitched, lesser garments use glue which comes apart over time. On a fused garment I have nothing to tack the pockets and dart into so benefit #2 of half canvas.

When fusing finally gained popularity, many people jumped on that wagon, and for a long time, it was quite true that your garment was either fused or canvas. Period. But after some time, salespeople and consumers became more aware of what they were wearing, and wanted something a little better. Whenever we can give features to a garment that a salesperson can talk about, be it bemberg lining, half canvas, padded lapek, hand finishing, whatever, it is a selling tool and they love it. The industry started to look at ways of providing a "best of both" garment, and teh half-canvas idea was born. To put it into perspective, a good canvas may cost $8 per meter; stopping the canvas at the pocket represents about a third of a meter of canvas, so let's say $2.40 per garment. Samuelsohn makes 300 garments per day so that translates to a potential savings of $180,000 per year in canvas alone. Jack Victor makes 1200 per day so that translates to almost a million dolllars a year which can be saved just by chopping the canvas a little shorter. The industry counts pennies and seconds these days and every large factory has an industrial engineer with a stopwatch examining each operation to see if we can shave a few seconds, and thus dollars, off the bottom line. We used to only have each other to compete with, now China's muscling in......... So less canvas, less trimming seam allowances, less tape applied to the front, less felling= cheaper garment, but one that is still much better than a fused garment.

As should be obvious by now, pinching a garment in the chest won't really tell you much, and pinching the lapel is not a failsafe way either. When looking at a garment, examine the underside of teh lapel for little pricks which would indicate pad stitching- on sportjackets you won't see this so it's not an entirely reliable method. However pad stitching only means that it uis a padded lapel, and not necessarily half canvas. Grab the front just below the breakpoint, folding it in half, and run your hand down toward the hem. If it is a half-canvas garment you will feel the very obvious spot where the canvas stops and the garment becomes a little softer or limper, you will also understand the difference between fusing and canvas. If it does not stop, it is either fused or full canvas. Pinch the lower front area and pull the front away from the facing- if there is a third layer in between, you have a canvas garment, otherwise it is fused. That or open the lining along the bottom and look inside- it can be very informative!

About me- yes, a die-hard clothing junkie, but I also work in the business. I am a designer for a manufacturer; this is different from a sportswear designer who will do conception only- a clothing designer also makes the pattern (or supervises someone who does), selects the trimmings and instructs the factory in the method of construction in order to get the silhouette, shoulder and quality level that he/she wants. I have worked for full canvas factories, full fused factories, and some in between so I have a pretty broad perspective on the industry and the benefits and drawbacks of different methods. And every once in a while I'll do some fully hand-made bespoke, but there is a far better living in RTW and MTM.


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## cvac

One thing manufacturers might think about: if so many brands and lines of suits out there are NOT fully canvassed, it might be worth it to try making a fully canvassed suit at a competitive price as a way to differentiate themselves from the competition.

Of course it would be a huge hassle to retool factories in order to do this, which is probably one of the reasons why North American factories aren't doing it.


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## eHaberdasher

Well done and much appreciated!


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## TheWardrobeGirl

That was great - thanks!!!


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## ChriO

Very interesting! Thank you.


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## Sir Walter

That was truely outstanding.

Please do more. Can you elaberate on the differences between specific brands? What are the differences between Hickey Freeman and Canali, or Canali and Ermenegildo Zegna? Are there any fully canvassed suits which are generally made to a higher standard than the others. Most on this forum will say Oxxford is the best made, but is that accurate or are all the fully canvased suits the same with the difference being in the styling, fit and fabric?

Thanks again.


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## jefferyd

*Best* is a relative thing. Put a roman tailor and a neapolitan tailor in a room and ask them what the best shoulder is. Then get behind something. I've done it and it's quite funny. 
But seriously, styling aside, what would you rather wear- a garment made to a higher standard that does not fit you well, or a lesser-made garment that fits perfectly?

There have also been many great technological advances (as the machine above illustrates) and in certain cases it is no longer true that doing certain operations is better. In the days of heavy woolens which would camouflage uneven hand stitching this may have been true, but there are certain operations which would look terrible if done by hand on a super 150 or 200 cloth. There exists a machine which can fell an undercollar in such a manner as to be virtually indistinguishable from a hand-felled collar- the stitch is the same, it looks the same, the method is the same, so which is better?

The full-canvas jacket pictured above is something I cut for myself, and I plan to do most things by hand. Along the way I can illustrate some of the differences and how to spot them, plus foster a debate about which method is better.

To go back to your question about specific makers, being in the trade myself I could be accused of being partial so I would rather not comment about one maker or another.


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## misterdonuts

Many thanks for this, jeffreyd. I must admit that I am as perplexed as a tailor is with respect to half canvas: what is the point? It just seems to me like a sartorial equivalent of a lap dance.


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## lawgman

misterdonuts said:


> Many thanks for this, jeffreyd. I must admit that I am as perplexed as a tailor is with respect to half canvas: what is the point? It just seems to me like a sartorial equivalent of a lap dance.


I purchased a suit from a local tailor that is mostly canvas but is fused below the 2nd button on a 3 button jacket. This local tailor actually outsources the work to another local tailor. Its my understanding that for each suit this tailor sells, he saves $100 per suit by including the fusing. If he receives an order for 6 suits a week, that is a savings of $600 a week. If this info is accurate the savings to this small business man is a pretty compelling reason to do ½ canvas over full canvas. I presume if he just raised his prices by $100 and did full canvas, he would miss his pricepoints and lose some customers.


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## misterdonuts

lawgman said:


> I purchased a suit from a local tailor that is mostly canvas but is fused below the 2nd button on a 3 button jacket. This local tailor actually outsources the work to another local tailor. Its my understanding that for each suit this tailor sells, he saves $100 per suit by including the fusing. If he receives an order for 6 suits a week, that is a savings of $600 a week. If this info is accurate the savings to this small business man is a pretty compelling reason to do ½ canvas over full canvas. I presume if he just raised his prices by $100 and did full canvas, he would miss his pricepoints and lose some customers.


I understand the cost implications relative to "full canvas." What I do not understand is the merit of "half canvas" over "padded lapel" or "fused"...


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## johnm

Really great post, thanks!


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## smr

Thanks so much for a very informative post, jefferyd! The follow-up comments are also helping to make it a great thread.


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## jefferyd

misterdonuts said:


> I understand the cost implications relative to "full canvas." What I do not understand is the merit of "half canvas" over "padded lapel" or "fused"...












Left to right- hair cloth, wrapped hair cloth, wool canvas, fusible.

The amount of roll in the canvas is governed by the amount of hair in the canvas. The sad, limp black thing on the right is fusible- hardly any roll. The fusible will add some bulk and some resilince when fused, but it can never approach horse hair. Having said that, I have to mention that Rovagnati, a maker of very nice canvas, developed a quality of fusible which DID have hair woven into it and would, in theory, perform much better than a regular fusible, but I don't think it attracted much attention because of the cost.....

A fused garment is inexpensive. That is its only merit.

A padded lapel on a fused garment has all the properties of a fused garment, except the lapel will roll better than a fused garment, because of the canvas (as displayed above) but also because as the lapel is pad-stitched a little more canvas is worked over the cloth. A whole other topic right there. Some inner workings may be sewn in place, but a garment sold at this price is likely glued together. More on this below.

A half canvas garment has canvas most of the way down the front, which makes a nicer-shaped chest, a cleaner front, since the canvas provides mores crosswise support, particularly to the pocket area; a lighter fusible can be used so the drape of the fabric is much closer to non-fused, and as we baste the canvas, we go inside, sewing the pockets and darts into the canvas, which we can not do on a fused or padded-lapel garment. The front is sewn permanently into the canvas from top to bottom, then the facing and lining will be attached to the canvas as well- all three layers are sewn together so will hang together and not distort, and the shape built will be more or less permanent. Basically, it is almost as good as a full canvas garment, but at a very significant savings; if the savings to the local tailored mentioned above is $100, remember that he will probably add his markup to that so your $100 becomes $150 or $200 at retail.

I, personally, own both full and half-canvas, if that means anything.


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## The Louche

Great stuff - I like the pictures and explanations - your hard work is appreciated and I encourage the Moderators to ad this thread to the "sticky" list. One clarification, though, please: *what is the difference between the top row of pictures and the bottom row of pictures in the diagram?*

Thanks again!


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## jefferyd

The Louche said:


> Great stuff - I like the pictures and explanations - your hard work is appreciated and I encourage the Moderators to ad this thread to the "sticky" list. One clarification, though, please: *what is the difference between the top row of pictures and the bottom row of pictures in the diagram?*
> 
> Thanks again!


Sorry for being unclear. The top row shows the garment front before the chest piece or canvas is affixed- you can see where, if any, fusing has been applied, and how the lapel canvas has been inserted under the fusing on the "padded lapel" variation. The lower row shows the canvas/ chest piece affixed- notice the difference between the full canvas and half canvas variations.


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## grimslade

Thanks for a terrific post, jeffery. When you say "Grab the front at the break," what does this mean?


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## arnaud

JeffreyD should be made an honorary citizen. A great service to the Republic.


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## jefferyd

grimslade said:


> Thanks for a terrific post, jeffery. When you say "Grab the front at the break," what does this mean?


Note to self- proofread before posting!

I don't what what I meant by that- where did you see it? (too lazy to re-read what I wrote, I am shameless!)


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## grimslade

jefferyd said:


> Note to self- proofread before posting!
> 
> I don't what what I meant by that- where did you see it? (too lazy to re-read what I wrote, I am shameless!)


I don't blame you, since I was too lazy to go back up and quote it. It was here:



> Grab the* front just below the breakpoint*, folding it in half, and run your hand down toward the hem. If it is a half-canvas garment you will feel the very obvious spot where the canvas stops and the garment becomes a little softer or limper, you will also understand the difference between fusing and canvas.


Thanks again.


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## gnatty8

Thank you. This is most likely the best treatment of canvas/half-canvas I have ever seen. It was very informative, and thank you for taking the time to share it. :icon_smile:


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## rbstc123

*Most impressive.*

Thank you so much for sharing. This is outstanding info.
This is also the most informative post ever on the matter!!!!!!
Thanks again.

Question: On a scale of 1 - 10 (one being the lowest ten the highest). Where does a Brooks Brothers 1818 suit 1/2 canvas suit rate and why.
What about Golden Fleece full canvas?

Thanks again!


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## fullgrain

> A half canvas garment has canvas most of the way down the front, which makes a nicer-shaped chest, a cleaner front, since the canvas provides mores crosswise support, particularly to the pocket area; a lighter fusible can be used so the drape of the fabric is much closer to non-fused, and as we baste the canvas, we go inside, sewing the pockets and darts into the canvas, which we can not do on a fused or padded-lapel garment. The front is sewn permanently into the canvas from top to bottom, then the facing and lining will be attached to the canvas as well- all three layers are sewn together so will hang together and not distort, and the shape built will be more or less permanent.


Jeffrey, this is starting to make sense. So the chest-piece is not redundant in half-canvassed, but rather does the same work as in full and allows a layer of fusing light enough so that it only has to do the job of supporting the front quarters, rather than the chest. Yes?

Since a half-canvas has the chest piece sewn in in the same manner as full, does it follow then that the fusing is only there in the chest to avoid the "line" you mentioned previously between fused and non fused areas? I read your original post to mean that if there is going to be fusing anywhere, it has to be everywhere. So that while there might be half-canvassed jackets w/ no fusing anywhere, there are none w/ only fusing below. Have I got this right?


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## jefferyd

fullgrain said:


> Jeffrey, this is starting to make sense. So the chest-piece is not redundant in half-canvassed, but rather does the same work as in full and allows a layer of fusing light enough so that it only has to do the job of supporting the front quarters, rather than the chest. Yes?
> 
> Since a half-canvas has the chest piece sewn in in the same manner as full, does it follow then that the fusing is only there in the chest to avoid the "line" you mentioned previously between fused and non fused areas? I read your original post to mean that if there is going to be fusing anywhere, it has to be everywhere. So that while there might be half-canvassed jackets w/ no fusing anywhere, there are none w/ only fusing below. Have I got this right?


You got it. Almost. A structured garment needs a chest piece, regardless, so pinching in the chest area will always reveal some floating canvas of some description. However, there are no half-canvas garments with no fusing. If there is no canvas in a portion of the garment (the lower quarter), there MUST be fusing to support it. The only reason it is extended into the chest area is to avoid the possible line which will appear where the fusing stops; we do not extend the fusing into the lapel area for reasons of thickness, and because it is a convenient place to stop the fusing imperceptibly.


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## windsor

A very enlightening post on an important (to us) topic. Thank you very much.:icon_smile_big:


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## fullgrain

jefferyd said:


> You got it. Almost. A structured garment needs a chest piece, regardless, so pinching in the chest area will always reveal some floating canvas of some description. However, there are no half-canvas garments with no fusing. If there is no canvas in a portion of the garment (the lower quarter), there MUST be fusing to support it. The only reason it is extended into the chest area is to avoid the possible line which will appear where the fusing stops; we do not extend the fusing into the lapel area for reasons of thickness, and because it is a convenient place to stop the fusing imperceptibly.


Thank you Jeffery for the clear explanations, diagrams, and photos. You've done a great service to the forum w/ this post, and in particular I think you cleared up a big grey area of confusion for many of us regarding both the hows _and_ whys of half-canvas construction.


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## emptym

Thanks so much for the incredibly informative posts, jeffreyd.

I have the same question as Grimslade above. What exactly do you mean by the "breakpoint" in this context:

"Grab the front just below the *breakpoint*, folding it in half, and run your hand down toward the hem. If it is a half-canvas garment you will feel the very obvious spot where the canvas stops and the garment becomes a little softer or limper, you will also understand the difference between fusing and canvas."

Is it where the lapel roll ends near the top/middle button?


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## Matt S

jefferyd said:


> You got it. Almost. A structured garment needs a chest piece, regardless, so pinching in the chest area will always reveal some floating canvas of some description. However, there are no half-canvas garments with no fusing. If there is no canvas in a portion of the garment (the lower quarter), there MUST be fusing to support it. The only reason it is extended into the chest area is to avoid the possible line which will appear where the fusing stops; we do not extend the fusing into the lapel area for reasons of thickness, and because it is a convenient place to stop the fusing imperceptibly.


So there are no half canvassed jackets without fusing? They can't just hang below the chest without fusing or canvas?

Also, how is the chest piece attached in a completely fused jacket? Do all jackets have what is referred to as a "floating chest piece"?

Thank you for all the information you have provided thus far. This has been one of the most informative threads here.


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## misterdonuts

jefferyd said:


> Left to right- hair cloth, wrapped hair cloth, wool canvas, fusible.
> 
> The amount of roll in the canvas is governed by the amount of hair in the canvas. The sad, limp black thing on the right is fusible- hardly any roll. The fusible will add some bulk and some resilince when fused, but it can never approach horse hair. Having said that, I have to mention that Rovagnati, a maker of very nice canvas, developed a quality of fusible which DID have hair woven into it and would, in theory, perform much better than a regular fusible, but I don't think it attracted much attention because of the cost.....
> 
> A fused garment is inexpensive. That is its only merit.
> 
> A padded lapel on a fused garment has all the properties of a fused garment, except the lapel will roll better than a fused garment, because of the canvas (as displayed above) but also because as the lapel is pad-stitched a little more canvas is worked over the cloth. A whole other topic right there. Some inner workings may be sewn in place, but a garment sold at this price is likely glued together. More on this below.
> 
> A half canvas garment has canvas most of the way down the front, which makes a nicer-shaped chest, a cleaner front, since the canvas provides mores crosswise support, particularly to the pocket area; a lighter fusible can be used so the drape of the fabric is much closer to non-fused, and as we baste the canvas, we go inside, sewing the pockets and darts into the canvas, which we can not do on a fused or padded-lapel garment. The front is sewn permanently into the canvas from top to bottom, then the facing and lining will be attached to the canvas as well- all three layers are sewn together so will hang together and not distort, and the shape built will be more or less permanent. Basically, it is almost as good as a full canvas garment, but at a very significant savings; if the savings to the local tailored mentioned above is $100, remember that he will probably add his markup to that so your $100 becomes $150 or $200 at retail.
> 
> I, personally, own both full and half-canvas, if that means anything.


Many thanks for this! Very helpful.


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## jefferyd

A few questions to be answered this morning.

>>"Grab the front just below the *breakpoint*, folding it in half, and run your hand down toward the hem. If it is a half-canvas garment you will feel the very obvious spot where the canvas stops and the garment becomes a little softer or limper, you will also understand the difference between fusing and canvas."

The *breakpoint *is the spot where the lapel rolls over, usually at teh top button, but in the case of a 3 button tipover (or roll 2, however you call it) it is between then top and second button. Don't pinch the front, let it fill your palm-











Take anotehr look at the photo of the different sorts of canvas. What you are feeling for is the large, wide roll that canvas provides- it will fill your hand; when it stops, you will feel only the fusing and notice a big difference.

Incidentally, the garment in the photo is a suit by Paul Smith which I own and love, and the spot where I am holding it is the very spot where the canvas ends- it is a half-canvas garment. Sir Paul has an interesting sense of humour- the pad stitching shows through on the underside of the lapel and is done in pink; the machine had to be carefully adjusted to do this, and it was done quite on purpose. Who other than serious clothing geeks would even understand what that was? He does a lot of that sort of thing- I am not sure if he is winking at us or blowing raspberries at us. In either case, if any of his people is lurking here, tell him I think he's great.

Back to the serious stuff.

>>
Also, how is the chest piece attached in a completely fused jacket? Do all jackets have what is referred to as a "floating chest piece"?

All jackets have a "floating chest piece". At least, I have never seen anythign other than a floating chest piece, and I've been to dozens and dozens of factories around the world. The chest piece is attached in teh same manner as it woudl be for a "padded-lapel" type garment, and is described above somewhere. If it is not clear, sicne I sometimes take for granted that everyone understands the terms I am using, I will clarify further.

 
>>Question: On a scale of 1 - 10 (one being the lowest ten the highest). Where does a Brooks Brothers 1818 suit 1/2 canvas suit rate and why.
What about Golden Fleece full canvas?
 
I have been asked a few times to comment on specific makers/makes. Please understand that you are either asking me to comment on my own product or on that of my competitors. Imagine if an executive at Zegna went on the record to say that Canali was better, or that Z Zegna was not made anywhere near as well as the mainline product (legal disclaimer- I am not actually suggesting any of this)? Any comments regarding specific product could land me in hot water, and besides, "best" is highly subjective and is relative. I would much rather give you the tools to make your own judgements about what is better and why.


----------



## Sir Walter

Why is it that some of brands of suits can not be pinched in the chest area if all jackets have a floating chest piece? Some jackets have a heavy matted feel and the outer wool fabric cannot be seperated in the same manner as the ones such as HF, Canali which are known to be full canvass.

Thank you again for this excellant post.


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## eHaberdasher

jefferyd said:


> I have been asked a few times to comment on specific makers/makes. Please understand that you are either asking me to comment on my own product or on that of my competitors. Imagine if an executive at Zegna went on the record to say that Canali was better, or that Z Zegna was not made anywhere near as well as the mainline product (legal disclaimer- I am not actually suggesting any of this)? Any comments regarding specific product could land me in hot water, and besides, "best" is highly subjective and is relative. I would much rather give you the tools to make your own judgements about what is better and why.


Well spoken. I wonder sometimes whether or not too many of us are overly influenced by the opinions of others - it is best (as you say, a relative term!) to gather as much information as we can and draw our own conclusions. Thank you for sharing your time, knowledge and expertise with us.


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## jefferyd

Sir Walter said:


> Why is it that some of brands of suits can not be pinched in the chest area if all jackets have a floating chest piece? Some jackets have a heavy matted feel and the outer wool fabric cannot be seperated in the same manner as the ones such as HF, Canali which are known to be full canvass.
> 
> Thank you again for this excellant post.


I can't say that I have ever come across a jacket which could not be separated from its chest piece. Many years ago, there was some fusible which was engineered to be lighter at the bottom and heavier at the top; some makers toyed with eliminating the chest piece, but I don't think it's even available any more- I haven't seen it it about ten years.

HOWEVER

When the canvas has been woven, the ends of the horse hair can protrude a bit, giving it a bit of a fuzzy texture. It is run through a machine which has a long bar with open flames, much liek a barbeque rotisserie, to burn off these ends, in a process called singeing. When we baste the garment together in a particular shape, we usually want it to stay that way and do a lot of work inside to keep stuff from shifting. Though we do want stuff "floating" as opposed to glued together, we don't want stuff to shift around, so some people prefer the canvas to be less singed- the ends of the hair tend to grip the fabric and hold it in place to a small extent. The last few years has seen a shift in type of fusible used to a newer, texturised yarn which provides better volume but is softer and lighter, and also has a very fuzzy finish. The less the canvas (in this case, hymo for the chest piece) has been singed, the more it will grip the fusing; I have seen suits which almost seemed glued together at the chest for this reason and this may be what you are feeling.

SO

Pinching above the chest may (or may not- you won't feel much in a tweed, for example) reveal the presence of fusing in the chest, but all you will learn from that is whether it is full canvas or not. The presence of fusing in the chest could indicate a half-canvas, padded lapel of fully fused garment so, IMHO, it's not the best test of quality.


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## nobody

*Just another thanks*

This is one of the most informative, useful, well explained set of posts I have seen - much thanks.


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## CharlesAlexander

What a great thread, very informative.


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## whistle_blower71

Great post and great attitude. Thank you for sharing. In your experience have you worked with full-canvas garments that still have a fusible membrane?

*W_B*


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## Sir Walter

jefferyd said:


> I can't say that I have ever come across a jacket which could not be separated from its chest piece. Many years ago, there was some fusible which was engineered to be lighter at the bottom and heavier at the top; some makers toyed with eliminating the chest piece, but I don't think it's even available any more- I haven't seen it it about ten years.
> 
> HOWEVER
> 
> When the canvas has been woven, the ends of the horse hair can protrude a bit, giving it a bit of a fuzzy texture. It is run through a machine which has a long bar with open flames, much liek a barbeque rotisserie, to burn off these ends, in a process called singeing. When we baste the garment together in a particular shape, we usually want it to stay that way and do a lot of work inside to keep stuff from shifting. Though we do want stuff "floating" as opposed to glued together, we don't want stuff to shift around, so some people prefer the canvas to be less singed- the ends of the hair tend to grip the fabric and hold it in place to a small extent. The last few years has seen a shift in type of fusible used to a newer, texturised yarn which provides better volume but is softer and lighter, and also has a very fuzzy finish. The less the canvas (in this case, hymo for the chest piece) has been singed, the more it will grip the fusing; I have seen suits which almost seemed glued together at the chest for this reason and this may be what you are feeling.
> 
> SO
> 
> Pinching above the chest may (or may not- you won't feel much in a tweed, for example) reveal the presence of fusing in the chest, but all you will learn from that is whether it is full canvas or not. The presence of fusing in the chest could indicate a half-canvas, padded lapel of fully fused garment so, IMHO, it's not the best test of quality.


Thanks again.


----------



## jefferyd

whistle_blower71 said:


> Great post and great attitude. Thank you for sharing. In your experience have you worked with full-canvas garments that still have a fusible membrane?
> 
> *W_B*


What do you mean by membrane?

Let's be clear- most canvas garments have a LITTLE fusing in them- maybe sleeve cuffs or to stabilise the neck or gorge area- in fact, there are very very few that have absolutely no fusing whatsoever. I do know that Samuelsohn found that on some of the very finest cloth, they were unable to padstitch the lapels without little dimples showing, and their customers don't want to see little dimples; lowering the plunger bite made it skip stitches. They found that by inserting a very light piece of fusible on the lapel cloth only, that gave the machine something to hold onto and they could pad the lapels nicely and without dimples. But that was only on the very light materials.


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## billiebob

This post is so awesome! Thank you!


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## medwards

Again, thanks. I have taken the liberty of adding this thread to the HOF Quick Reference Threads sticky at the top of this Forum.


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## Beau

Kudos to you jefferyd! 

After reading through your posts I went to my closet and felt, folded, cupped, stroked and pinched my suits and sportcoats. I haven't copped so many feels since junior high. 

My wardrobe consists of only Samuelsohn and Hickey-Freeman (not Ltd), and an old Oakloom (now Hilton). My suits and sportcoats vary in age from one year up to thirteen for the Oakloom. All of them seem to be fully canvassed. 

I had always thought that there was some fusing on the backside of the lapel, because I could never pinch the external fabric away from the middle layer, and now I understand why. That little bit of fusing doesn't make these garments any lesser, and in 26 years of owning suits constructed this way, I have never had that little piece of fusing fail.

Your information is a great equalizer. Caveat emptor!


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## drrac2

VERY INFORMATIVE!!!!!


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## a tailor

i have said in the past that i have never seen a half canvas. but i would believe if seen. your posts are very authentic, so that i now believe it. 
a question. is the half canvas trimmed and taped on the edge as a regular canvas?


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## //Michael

Great Post!


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## whistle_blower71

jefferyd said:


> What do you mean by membrane?
> 
> Let's be clear- most canvas garments have a LITTLE fusing in them- maybe sleeve cuffs or to stabilise the neck or gorge area- in fact, there are very very few that have absolutely no fusing whatsoever. I do know that Samuelsohn found that on some of the very finest cloth, they were unable to padstitch the lapels without little dimples showing, and their customers don't want to see little dimples; lowering the plunger bite made it skip stitches. They found that by inserting a very light piece of fusible on the lapel cloth only, that gave the machine something to hold onto and they could pad the lapels nicely and without dimples. But that was only on the very light materials.


Membrane refers to the light fusible that covers the foreparts.
As I have said on previous threads, almost all "full canvas" have some fusing in them...even on SR. I think very fine cloths and velvets are often fused. Fusing around the pocket and lapel gorge is also common.

*W_B*


----------



## jefferyd

Beau said:


> My wardrobe consists of only Samuelsohn and Hickey-Freeman (not Ltd), and an old Oakloom (now Hilton). My suits and sportcoats vary in age from one year up to thirteen for the Oakloom. All of them seem to be fully canvassed.
> 
> I had always thought that there was some fusing on the backside of the lapel, because I could never pinch the external fabric away from the middle layer, and now I understand why. That little bit of fusing doesn't make these garments any lesser, and in 26 years of owning suits constructed this way, I have never had that little piece of fusing fail.
> 
> Your information is a great equalizer. Caveat emptor!


Actually, most of the Samuelsohn and Hickey will have no fusing on the front at all, only a few recent garments have been produced with a little bit in the lapel, but it is between the canvas and the cloth which has all been padstitched together. It is impossible to tell whether it is there just by feeling- you would have to open the garment up and remove some of teh oad stitching. You will also never be able to pinch the extra layer in the lapel because the canvas has been padstitched to the cloth, regardless.

An anecdote-

In 1999 Samuelsohn recieved an overcoat back to change the lining, which had become frayed. The preferred method would be to pull the original pattern to recut the lining, however there was neither any tag in the coat indicating the style, nor could a pattern even resembling that style be found. The customer was contacted to enquire as to what the coat was to help in locating the pattern, and he replied that it was quite normal that no pattern could be found- the coat had been made sometime in the late 50's. The coat was still in great shape, other than the lining, which was extracted and used as a pattern to recut a new one. Quality workmanship is occasionally worth the price.


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## jefferyd

a tailor said:


> i have said in the past that i have never seen a half canvas. but i would believe if seen. your posts are very authentic, so that i now believe it.
> a question. is the half canvas trimmed and taped on the edge as a regular canvas?


Yes, the half-canvas is trimmed and taped; you can see in the photo that there is a grey cotton semi-bias tape along the edge. The padded-lapel variety is NOT trimmed and taped in order to save $$; the canvas is left in the seam allowance therefore a MUCH softer canvas has to be used in the lapel.


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## jefferyd

whistle_blower71 said:


> Membrane refers to the light fusible that covers the foreparts.
> As I have said on previous threads, almost all "full canvas" have some fusing in them...even on SR. I think very fine cloths and velvets are often fused. Fusing around the pocket and lapel gorge is also common.
> 
> *W_B*


The front part will not be fused, only in some rare occasions will a light piece be used in the lapel or perhaps the gorge line. Samuelsohn puts a small piece of non-woven fusible behind the pocket, Canali does not- they use a cotton stay.


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## lawgman

jefferyd said:


> Actually, most of the Samuelsohn and Hickey will have no fusing on the front at all, only a few recent garments have been produced with a little bit in the lapel, but it is between the canvas and the cloth which has all been padstitched together. It is impossible to tell whether it is there just by feeling- you would have to open the garment up and remove some of teh oad stitching. You will also never be able to pinch the extra layer in the lapel because the canvas has been padstitched to the cloth, regardless.


The downtown locations of the Bay sell Samuelsohn suits. For a period of a few years, the Samuelsohn suits and jackets sold at the bay were half canvass suits. This appears to have changed (the ones I have seen there recently appear full canvass) but I did buy a suit and a couple of jackets that I expected to be normal Samuelsohn quality but they were not. Even my tailor commented negatively on them. On the other hand, my Sammy from Harry's is perfect.


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## jefferyd

lawgman said:


> The downtown locations of the Bay sell Samuelsohn suits. For a period of a few years, the Samuelsohn suits and jackets sold at the bay were half canvass suits. This appears to have changed (the ones I have seen there recently appear full canvass) but I did buy a suit and a couple of jackets that I expected to be normal Samuelsohn quality but they were not. Even my tailor commented negatively on them. On the other hand, my Sammy from Harry's is perfect.


Thank you for pointing this out. The last time I remember Samuelsohn doing half canvas was way back when they did it for A. Gold & Sons. I suspect they are now also doing this in the Phineas Cole, but don't quote me on that yet; I'll find out for sure.

As you may have guessed, I used to work for them.......


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## Barrister & Solicitor

Thanks Jeffery, this thread is most informative.

I think Samuelsohn's website states that their jackets are canvassed, implying fully canvassed.

Do they sell directly to the public by any chance (outlet store, warehouse sale, etc.)?


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## jefferyd

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Thanks Jeffery, this thread is most informative.
> 
> I think Samuelsohn's website states that their jackets are canvassed, implying fully canvassed.
> 
> Do they sell directly to the public by any chance (outlet store, warehouse sale, etc.)?


They generally are. Thanks to Lawgman for reminding me that at customer's request they will sometimes do hlaf-canvas.

The *official* word on public sales is no- it would piss retailers off if anyone could go buy wholesale. They do have a warehouse sale twice a year and if you're near sample size you can get some FANTASTIC deals. they also have overstock and last season in every size. I'll give a shout out next time they have a warehouse sale.


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## Barrister & Solicitor

Thanks Jeffery!

I think they're on avenue du Parc, aren't they?.

What's the sample size? I'm likely not that at all, since I wear short sized jackets.


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## jefferyd

Barrister & Solicitor said:


> Thanks Jeffery!
> 
> I think they're on avenue du Parc, aren't they?.
> 
> What's the sample size? I'm likely not that at all, since I wear short sized jackets.


Samples usually 40 & 42 R, but photography & runway samples get cut in whatever size the model happens to be, but that is usually tall. They're on Parc just south of Jean Talon.


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## EL72

jefferyd said:


> Thank you for pointing this out. The last time I remember Samuelsohn doing half canvas was way back when they did it for A. Gold & Sons. I suspect they are now also doing this in the Phineas Cole, but don't quote me on that yet; I'll find out for sure.
> 
> As you may have guessed, I used to work for them.......


I have three Sammys from The Bay (all bought within the last 2-3 years) and they are definitely all fully canvassed. One salesman there a few years ago did whisper to me in a hush hush way that Samuelsohns were half-canvassed but I didn't notice any differences.

The lapel roll on my two button Samuelsohn sportcoats is truly beautiful and as good if not better than what I've seen from any other top maker like Isaia or Brioni.


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## cvac

Re: Samuelsohn, any idea if the jackets they made recently for Bullock and Jones are only half-canvassed instead of the traditional full canvas?


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## jamgood

Found the answer to a question in the OP.


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## Matteo

*Awesome post*

I loved this post. I never thought about the roll factor of the various interfacings (canvas=lots of roll, fusing=hardly any).

I always told people that full canvas feels like wearing a sweater. But I always thought that it felt so much better because it "floated" inside the suit (as contrasted by fusing which is "glued" on and doesn't "float").

However, after reading this I now think that full canvas feels so much better because of the roll factor. The springy feel that the canvas gives is probably what I appreciate more than the floating aspect.

I wonder what a glued fusing would feel like that had more roll....Anyway, thanks a bunch for the awesome, awesome post.


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## IamDon

JefferyD, thank you for this post. 

My web browser is not loading any of the photos however. I have tried both IE as well as firefox and all I see is a little white box with a red asterix. Anyone else having the same problem ?


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## jefferyd

cvac said:


> Re: Samuelsohn, any idea if the jackets they made recently for Bullock and Jones are only half-canvassed instead of the traditional full canvas?


I would be very surprised. They don't particularly like the notion of half-canvas but they will do it on occasion for important customers.

I am concerned about the photo problem mentioned- anyone esle getting this? I am new to this stuff and maybe doing something wrong.

Oh, and is everybody clear about what pad stitching is (i.e. padded lapel, but also the chest piece)


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## Matteo

*pics load fine for me*

Maybe is you are your work computer and your web proxy is stripping out the photos. that is what happens to me on a lot of the posts here and I wait to see the pics when I get home. However, I can see these pictures on my work computer so I guess this image host isn't being blocked like some others.

I read the book "Classic Tailoring Techniques" by Robert Cabrera (I'm teaching myself how to tailor my own coats) at my local library and he explained padstiching but I still wasn't sure how to do it exactly. It's all those zig-zaggy stitches in the lapel right? You stitch the canvasing to the wool (outer layer of the garment that everyone sees) by sticking the needle through the canvas and then just barely grabbing the wool just a tiny tiny bit. That's why you don't feel three layers in the lapel of a fully canvased coat because the canvasing doesn't really "float" in the lapel, it's stitched with all those zig-zaggy stiches?


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## jamgood

Pardon the intrusion Mr. D.

This may assist illustration of how all this stuff hangs in a full canvas front. Please reference Post #21 for descriptions of the various layers. This photo illustrates the various layers progressively revealed starting from the center and going to the left.

It's fuzzy, but the lapel paddiding stitches appear to evidence the loops of machine-stitched padding rather than herringbone patterned hand pad stitching.

The full length outer canvas extends to the arm seam, but has been cut away to show the different types of canvas which are between the outer canvas and the lining. What it does not illustrate is the felted material (cotton, or cotton like domette?) twixt the middle layer of canvas and the lining, unless that is the black material near the arm seam.

The white material just to the top right of the arm seam is shoulder padding (domette?). There also appears to be a bit of black sleeve head padding at the top of the sleeve.

This suit has slanted "hacking" type pockets. On a half canvas jacket the various layers of canvas would terminate between the top and center coat buttons, in this case somewhere above the upper hacking ticket pocket. And where we see canvas the full length of this jacket there would be a somewhat fuzzy material laminated to the inside of the jacket front material, "fused".

Would welcome correction.










The photos below illustrate a fused front half canvas construction. The jacket is a relatively unconstructed, unlined, French faced "hacking" jacket. The first photo is of the exterior ticket pocket, the top of which aligns with the middle front button of 3. The second is of the normally covered innards relating to the same area as the first picture. Notice the pocket construction with vertical dart extending above. The gray is the fused material which extends vertically from the front shoulder top to the lower edge and horizontally from the front edge to about the middle of the lower front pocket. The canvas and domette layer edge is visible where it ends about 2 inches above the ticket pocket. In this case it's more like a 40% canvas, rather than "half".


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## GBR

So where does this extraordinary (in as many ways as you want) dissertation get us?


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## jefferyd

GBR said:


> So where does this extraordinary (in as many ways as you want) dissertation get us?


Well, there has been an enormous amount of speculation about which brand or make was better than another, and an equal amount of debate over the existence or validity of one make or another. As the budget of many of the general population will not permit full bespoke (which is not a guarantee in itself of a well-made, well-fitting suit) the consumer is faced with making certain decisions and judgements with regards to the quality and relative value of his purchase. This dissertation will hopefully assist in making those decisions.

First and foremost- does the garment fit? If not, the Kiton label inside is worthless and no amount of hand-stitching will redeem it. With regards to make, one can broadly divide the types of make into four categories;

Full canvas garment; while there are still many possible variations on this theme, the best type of garment one can purchase.

Half-canvas garment; many of the benefits of a full-canvas garment at a considerably lower price. Do not turn your nose up at this garment.

Padded lapel; here I was hoping one of the tailors on this forum would call me out on this but apparently they are gentlemen. The technique requires a softer canvas as it is not trimmed out of the seam allowance, and in order to avoid visible impressions where the canvas ends, it generally ends well above the breakpoint. While there are a few merits to this method above a purely fused garment, one could argue that the PERCIEVED value of this garment is greater than the actual value. This method is widespread and one should know how to spot the difference bewteen this, which is often mistakenly referred to as "half-canvas" and those garments which actually ARE half-canvas.

And finally the fused garment, which is made to accommodate the budget of the greater portion of the populace.

So, rather than *beware,* buyer be EDUCATED!


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## cglex

This is a great and informative series of posts. Thank you. However, these posts raise some questions.

For a given manufacturer, how much do they vary for the retailer, how and with what they make a jacket? As an example, fabric and cut aside, is a Samuelsohn always the same Samuelsohn be it from Paul Stuart or the Andover Shop? 

Within the realm of fully canvased jackets, are their meaningful differences in inner materials and construction techniques that should matter to the wearer?


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## jefferyd

cglex said:


> For a given manufacturer, how much do they vary for the retailer, how and with what they make a jacket? As an example, fabric and cut aside, is a Samuelsohn always the same Samuelsohn be it from Paul Stuart or the Andover Shop?
> 
> Within the realm of fully canvased jackets, are their meaningful differences in inner materials and construction techniques that should matter to the wearer?


A Samuelsohn is always a Samuelsohn, which does not mean it is always full canvas; I know, for example, that Paul Stuart was trying to get the price down on Phineas and I suspect they may have gone to half-canvas on it, but don`t quote me on that. They have done half-canvas for other customers when price was an issue. There is much discussion on these forums about BB`s and Hickey`s various makes, but what should be clear from these posts is that even the salesmen are sometimes mistaken when it comes to the product so the best way to know for sure is to open the lining a little, failing that, perform the pich & squeeze tests, or simply phone the manufacturer who will usually be pleased to tell you all about the product. Do not speak to someone in sales or customer service- speak directly to someone in the QC department.

As for the inner materials, they vary enormously, but largely for purposes of silhouette, shoulder etc. A softer, Neapolitan-style coat will have softer canvas, less haircloth, very little in the sleeve cap if anything, whereas a clean Canali will have heavier canvas, three large pieces of haircloth, etc. But it`s not something the consumer should worry about. Determine the general make (canvas vs fused), decide whether you like the fit and the silhouette, and you`re good.


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## Hard2Fit

Great thread.


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## jamgood

Why do Samuelsohn and other mfgs. press a flattening crease in the lapel where it should roll? It's pad-stitched to roll. Seems as if manufacturers are defeating the purpose, and expense, of pad-stitched lapels when they crease them flat. Voila....


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## jefferyd

jamgood said:


> Why do Samuelsohn and other mfgs. press a flattening crease in the lapel where it should roll? It's pad-stitched to roll. Seems as if manufacturers are defeating the purpose, and expense, of pad-stitched lapels when they crease them flat. Voila....


The pad stitching is not only to roll the lapel- it keeps the edge tight to the chest. The lapel should not begin to roll immediately- it should be creased to lie flat against the collar, then it begins to roll gently toward the break point, at which point the roll is quite pronounced.

What you are seeing is a crease which has been made by a machine called a "collar master"- it is roughly in the shape of a person and the collar and roll line are broken in one step. It does not press the entire lapel flat- it creases the breakline about half way down. In the final stages of pressing the breakline will be repressed, leaving the crease only about the width of a hand below the gorge. The rest will roll.


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## NU81

Excellent post! One of the most informative I've read on this site.


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## maxnharry

Great post! Thanks for taking time to share that.


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## rgrpark

jeffreyd,
I'm still waiting for your post on how to properly press a suit jacket.
Got my sleeveboard ready! :icon_smile:


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## jefferyd

rgrpark said:


> jeffreyd,
> I'm still waiting for your post on how to properly press a suit jacket.
> Got my sleeveboard ready! :icon_smile:


Trying to get my hands on a video camera..............


----------



## Custom Guy

jefferyd said:


> OK I know it's been done to death, but I still feel that a lot of people (including in the industry, so don't feel bad) don't understand what all this canvas stuff is about. So here is my two cents worth about manufactured tailored jackets.
> 
> Canvas is a slightly confusing term because it can describe several things; the wool canvas front used in full and half-canvas garments, as well as the stuff that is used in making a chest piece. So the sake of this post, I will refer to the soft-ish wool warp canvas which is found on the entire length of the front of a canvas garment as *wool canvas*, and is shown in blue in the accompanying diagram (assuming I get it up right). This is usually a wool warp with horse hair , cotton, rayon, and other things woven into the weft to give stability across the garment. There are several different types of canvas used in combination to create a *chest* *piece*, and in North America this is commonly referred to as *hymo*, *wrapped hair* and *haircloth*. This is covered in felt or domette to protect the wearer. If you have ever felt plasticy things sticking out of the chest of your garment, this is actually most likely real horse tail, which is a very springy substance used in haircloth to reinforce the chest and shoulder. The chest piece in my diagram is a light grey. Fusible (that dreaded stuff) is shown in red, the garment cloth is shown in dark grey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *FULL CANVAS CONSTRUCTION*
> Hymo, wrapped hair, haircloth and felt are cut and prepared according to the designer's instructions, then attached to a large piece of wool canvas and padstitched together. The result is what we call a canvas front. Once the darts and pockets have been made and the armhole taped, the jacket front is basted to the canvas; the process takes some time compared to just laying down some fusible and running it through a fusing machine, and requires a certain amount of skill to do it correctly- a well-made fused garment will fit better than a poorly basted canvas garment so a lot of care must be taken when basting the canvas. The diagram shows that there is no fusible on the front at all. Once the canvas has been basted, most manufatcurers do the pad-stitching on a special machine that rolls the lapel, runs a line of blindstitching, stops, goes back to the beginning, rolls the lapel again, and does this until the lapel has been padded. Sounds fantastic (and it is) but a pair of these (one for the left and one for the right) can cost around $80,000 (yes, eighty THOUSAND). The tailor shop on the corner will NOT have these machines. The bridle tape is applied along the roll line, pulling as it is basted so that the roll line will not gape away from the chest. This will sometimes cause puckering on the jacket along the roll line but that is fine as it is hidden under the lapel. The drawing of the roll line is consistent through the canvas and the cloth since both are done at the same time. Samuelsohn, Hickey, Canali, Zegna, etc. (not Z Zegna)
> 
> *HALF CANVAS CONSTRUCTION*
> As you can see from the diagram, the front is fused, but not the lapel area. This is because the canvas will not extend all the way down the front and stopping the fusing half way would leave an impression. Those who sneer at the idea of fusing because of delamination have little or nothing to worry about these days- technology has improved greatly, and correctly applied fusing will not bubble. Improper application or overtly harsh treatment by dry cleaners may still be a problem, but it is extremely rare these days.
> 
> The canvas front resembles a full canvas front except that it stops just below the pocket. This saves some time and material, but still providing the benefits of a properly padded lapel and stability in the front chest, right down to the pocket. The padding and bridle are done in the same manner as the full front and so is a decent trade-off when budget is an issue. Joseph Abboud, Coppley, some Jack Victor, among others.
> 
> *PADDED LAPEL*
> This is a technique that Hartmarx claims to have patented, but so many manufacturers do it I'm not so sure about it. The fusible is the same as for a half-canvas garment, except the wool canvas in the shape of the lapel is inserted under the fusible along the rool line as it is being fed into the fusing machine. This is important because the chest piece does not have to be basted on to the front this way; the lapel is padded and then the chest piece is attached. There are variations, but most manufacturers use a technique like this to apply the chest piece; the bridle tape has fusible resin on one side- starting at the top, the 1" or so wide tape is applied to both the chest piece and the front- half inch on the chest piece and half inch on the front, fusing the first few inches of the roll line without pulling. The operator works heir way down the roll line, this time pulling for the next few inches to draw the roll line in, then fixing the last few inches without pulling. The chest piece is now attaced only at the roll line; the garment is flipped over, placed on a large press from which has a shape roughly like that of the finished garment, and the armhole is then stapled temporarily in place- using the form allows the operator to place excess faric where it is needed, to cover the chest, for example. The armhole is then sewn in place through the chest piece, either all the way or only partly up the armhole. This unsexy method of attaching the chest piece eliminates the basting operations and makes it a simple operation to perform.
> 
> This is a great time saver but there is one thing that I don't like about the way this is done by most makers; the canvas used in the lapel-only method is usually a LOT softer than the full or half-canvas method because in the first two, after pad-stitching, the seam allowances of the canvas are trimmed away by hand, a very time-consuming operation which avoids having the bulky canvas caught in the seam, making a nice thin edge. The canvas of the lapel-only version is usually left in the seam allowance to save the time required to trim it away and for this reason it has to be very soft; you then lose the great loft in the roll provided by a heavier canvas. However, it is still better than a flat fused lapel and gives a nicer roll to an otherwise more affordable garment.
> 
> *FULLY FUSED*
> There is no wool canvas on this garment. The chest piece is applied to the front in the same manner as the padded lapel garment.
> 
> Not everyone can afford canvas and its variations. No, let me rephrase. Comparatively few CAN afford canvas and its variations which is why there are so many fused garments on the market.
> 
> I hope this is a little clearer now. If anyone is interested in seeing photos, let me know and I'll put some up somewhere.


This is great, Thanks again


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## gentleman amateur

Very happy to see this thread included in the Hall of Fame:icon_smile_big: Congratulations, jefferyd!


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## link_xu

*good training*

very helpful !


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## Scoundrel

Congratulations on your contribution to the Hall of Fame thread.

Quick question: are all BB tuxedos fully canvassed? Has anyone ever seen/bought one that wasn't?


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## dingbat

Fantastic thread. Can't believe I haven't stumbled on it before now. Thanks jefferyd.


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## dks202

*full or half*

I just found this after more than a year. How informative!


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## CTD

Found and, as an addendum, thought some may benefit from related information being presented. 

It really helped me to tie together the wealth of information contained in this thread. Many thanks to jefferyd!


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## SeptemberSun

Just to add to the knowledge base...tore part of my Gianfranco Ferre Studio suit jacket in an accident - tailor said it was time to put it to rest. I opened up the lining and after a few snips saw that there is canvas down to the top button. I'm not sure who makes these suits for Ferre but I can confirm that they are half canvas. Now, any suggestions on what to do with the pieces I'm left with??


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## maltess

Thanks so much, I was really wandering about all this. So for an inexperienced person like me , how can I recognize a fully or half canvased jacket? a more consistent shape maybe?

Also do you know , if boss selection regular line is canvased?

best regards and thanks a lot for your help


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## jefferyd

maltess said:


> Thanks so much, I was really wandering about all this. So for an inexperienced person like me , how can I recognize a fully or half canvased jacket? a more consistent shape maybe?


No- the best way is look inside or ask the manufacturer (not a salesperson, who often doesn't know but will make it up). Failing that, instructions for feeling the garment to determine its construction can be found on the first page of the thread.



> Also do you know , if boss selection regular line is canvased?


It is my understanding that the Selection line is canvassed, but when in doubt, feel the garment.


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## levelek

Another vote of thanks for this incredibly informative set of posts!


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## Bohan

jefferyd said:


> [Full canvas] can cost around $80,000 (yes, eighty THOUSAND).


Could someone show me a 70-80 THOUSAND dollar suit? I've never heard of one.


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## MaxBuck

Bohan said:


> Could someone show me a 70-80 THOUSAND dollar suit? I've never heard of one.


Read more carefully. He's talking about the machine cost for pad stitching, and pointing out your local tailor is unlikely to have them.


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## Bohan

Oh...


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## Matt S

We really need to have threads that have been dead more than a few months locked automatically.


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## Bohan

But not this one because it's linked to in the Hall of Fame Quick Reference Threads thread which is a locked sticky thread. This thread is more important than most and should be correctable and updatable.


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## smmrfld

Matt S said:


> We really need to have threads that have been dead more than a few months locked automatically.


Not a very good idea. Why would you want to sift through a bunch of threads on the same topic? Many well-run fora consolidate threads and encourage this type of efficiency.


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## Joseph1214

Hi,

Sorry for this newbie question. But I'm a new member and wanted to buy some ties on the sales forum. It said I ca on only PM staff before posting 15 times. So how can I get in touch with the seller to buy the ties, since it also says that I can't post to thread unless I post 25 times? I tried to PM the seller anyway and it send I had a sent mail in my inbox, so maybe it went through? Not sure, any help would be much appreciated. Thanks


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## Matt S

smmrfld said:


> Not a very good idea. Why would you want to sift through a bunch of threads on the same topic? Many well-run fora consolidate threads and encourage this type of efficiency.


Every time someone posts to a thread that's a few years old here there's never anything new to contribute. It's like when someone overhears your conversation with someone else and brings it up an hour later after you've forgotten about it. It's just too late. Have you noticed how often people answer questions asked by people who haven't been around here for years? The idea you pose is a great one, but here it just never seems to work out.

At the very least, the threads from 2005 should be locked because the responses were lost and people like to respond to the questions the OPs got the answer to 8 years ago.


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## kravi

Matt S said:


> Every time someone posts to a thread that's a few years old here there's never anything new to contribute. It's like when someone overhears your conversation with someone else and brings it up an hour later after you've forgotten about it. It's just too late. Have you noticed how often people answer questions asked by people who haven't been around here for years? The idea you pose is a great one, but here it just never seems to work out.
> 
> At the very least, the threads from 2005 should be locked because the responses were lost and people like to respond to the questions the OPs got the answer to 8 years ago.


Every time a thread is necroed, a kitten dies... 

--Me


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## jkranites

awesome...I salute you sir...Really gave me a Construction 101 on Suits


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## Dmontez

kravi said:


> Every time a thread is necroed, a kitten dies...
> 
> --Me


My wife and I just went on a late run to Wal-Mart and she ran over a cat. I think you may be on to something..


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## Acme

Where's that other thread where one of the members cut open some thrifted blazers to take pictures of their construction? Forum search leaves a lot to be desired, and in this case, Google was no help either.

I've been meaning to take a peek for a while, and finally got around to cutting one open to see the full canvas construction. I've peeled away the top layer of fabric to exposed the canvas underneath, which lies on top of the lining. The grey square at bottom left is the guts of the pocket:


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## Bohan

Fifth result with this search is this thread.


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## Acme

^Thank you very much.


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