# Natural Shoulder



## Sweetness (Aug 25, 2005)

What is this supposed to mean? Does it just mean the shoulder part of the blazer does not have any padding?


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Natural should is a nice sloping shoulder on a jacket, intended to conform to the actual shape of the shoulder. Though unpadded is nice, these are very hard to find in otr jackets these days. Jackets with a small amount of padding just fit better on a larger range of customers. For true unpadded natural shoulder, MTM or bespoke is your best bet. I did see some natural shoulder jackets at Jay Kos in NYC this spring. They are not trad, but they are quite nice, and very expensive.


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

Orvis also has some unconstructed jackets with no padding at all in the shoulder. It's more like wearing a sweatshirt than a jacket comfort wise.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

"Natural Shoulder" is also a term that refers to the university styles of the '50s and early '60s. Synonymous wit "Ivy League" I think.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

"Natural shoulder" to me has always meant that the jacket seam is at the real shoulder -- hence the term "natural shoulder" -- rather than heavily padded and extending beyond the real biological shoulder.

The photo below shows this fairly well: Bolton is wearing a natural shoulder sack suit while GWB is wearing a heavily padded _non-_natural shoulder suit. Note how the shoulder's on GWB's suit appear to be hovering out to the sides beyond where we would expect his real shoulders to be, while on Bolton's suit the suit shoulders are right at his real shoulders.


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## Tuck (May 4, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> "Natural shoulder" to me has always meant that the jacket seam is at the real shoulder -- hence the term "natural shoulder" -- rather than heavily padded and extending beyond the real biological shoulder.
> 
> The photo below shows this fairly well: Bolton is wearing a natural shoulder sack suit while GWB is wearing a heavily padded _non-_natural shoulder suit. Note how the shoulder's on GWB's suit appear to be hovering out to the sides beyond where we would expect his real shoulders to be, while on Bolton's suit the suit shoulders are right at his real shoulders.


That is a pretty somber looking group!! Condie looks upset!


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Typical natural shoulder today with slight padding (as opposed to heavily padded GWB shoulder above)



The "real deal"...the ideal unpadded natural shoulder


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*It is not a simple thing...*

In my experience, it is not enough that a shoulder simply have minimal or no padding. The ultimate would be something that is closer to a sloping shoulder. This is very hard to find.

Markus


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## Foghorn (Feb 2, 2005)

The term is "Natural & Soft Shoulder". You really have to specify on this due to mfg variation.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

That photo of Bolton and Bush is great. It definitely illuminates the difference between the soft, steady slope of a natural shoulder and the now ubiquitous padded shoulder. ~Harris


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## Hard2Fit (May 11, 2005)

Harris said:


> That photo of Bolton and Bush is great. It definitely illuminates the difference between the soft, slope of a natural shoulder and the now ubiquitous padded shoulder. ~Harris


Agreed. Great pic.


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## Hard2Fit (May 11, 2005)

The question I have now is where does one find a "natural shoulder" suit, OTR. Does a RL Polo Blue Label suit meet the requirements?


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## Chris H (Oct 30, 2004)

the42n8s1 said:


> The question I have now is where does one find a "natural shoulder" suit, OTR. Does a RL Polo Blue Label suit meet the requirements?


Phil's comments on the thread below may be of help:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=260144#post260144


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## Hard2Fit (May 11, 2005)

Thanks!


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

Bush's Oxxford suit definitely has a lot of padding. I think my Brooksease 2 buttons have much less, but more than some of the sacks that are currently available.
I have found that it really isn't necessary to get too hung up on all of this. Brooks are fine and have minimal padding.
Even with the darts, I noticed that with my solid suits (all I wear are solid navy and char) you can't even see the darts unless you get within 3 feet. (and you REALLY have to try hard to detect them.) I did a little "experiment" and looked in the mirror, and from 5 feet away, they look like a 2 button sacks. ---no shaping,,,,,46 reg hanging almost straight from the armpits. I like em.. (in my mind, we dress to "impress." Who are we impressing? Nobody in Ohio knows a dart from a pleat. You would have to be an Ask Andy Forum guy and walk up to within 3 feet and stare closely to determine if darts exist. ===waste of time in my mind.)

All the best, 
Joe


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## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

As somebody who wears "real-deal" natural shoulders with darts (I posted a picture awhile back), I can say that the look of the shoulder is much more shocking to people than the darts. A natural shoulder gernerally has a line that is slightly football shaped. You either love it or you hate it. Darts are necessary because of the makeup of the human body. If you want your chest and waist to fit the same, you need to take out the fabric under the pecs and ribcage.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I like GWB's tie.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

The scandal of trad is that the softest shoulder on the planet is made not by Southwick or H. Freeman, but likely by Anderson & Sheppard. One of my colleagues returned from GB with an A&S suit. Among the more handsome garments I've ever seen. Period. What I wouldn't give to spend just a few hours in the A&S cutting room. The A&S cut is enough to convert a hardcore trad to darts. 

No one (among us) wants to admit the harsh and painful truth, which is that neither the Southwick nor even the Izzy-made H. Freeman can match the shoulder softness of an A & S. It sounds like PoloRL can make a soft-shouldered garment, and maybe Nick Hilton is trying to harken back to the days of yore when his Dad did it well with the Hampton and West End models. It's safe to say that Chipp's Winston can do a bespoke garment that features soft (padless, even?) shoulders.

The softest shouldered off-the-rack garment I've seen and/or worn in years is one of the "Feather Tweeds" that Brooks sold two years ago. Double vents and slightly darted. I love it. Satisfies the Anglophile inside. 

~Harris


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## jmorgan32 (Apr 30, 2005)

I have never heard of that company. Interesting....Uh oh, now I am re-thinking the shoulder aspect of my Brooksease. 

Question-------to me it seems the Brooksease sack 3/2 has the same amount of shoulder padding as my 2 button darted Brooksease-both the suits and blazers. Am I just not "feeling" it correctly?

Also, I didn't really notice a different "slope" as you all refer to it, when comparing the 2 button to the 3/2 Brooksease. Do you notice a major difference when you compare those 2 models? (maybe I just don't have a keen enough eye for this-----or,,,,could it be the Brooksease 3/2 sack is not a "true sack" so to speak-------or as Matt stated above "the real deal".)

Thanks, 
Joe


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

Markus said:


> In my experience, it is not enough that a shoulder simply have minimal or no padding. The ultimate would be something that is closer to a sloping shoulder. This is very hard to find.
> 
> Markus


The heart of the issue is not padding alone, but what clothing mavens call "expression." The expression of a shoulder or, indeed, of the entire coat, is the three-dimensional shape imagined as if the coat were being supported by inflation.

Disregard the structural support of pads, wadding, canvas, and all the invisible elements you know (or suspect) are lurking beneath the skin. Think of the coat as a marble sculpture and examine the surface, the contours, the shape.

What is commonly known as a "natural" or "soft" shoulder is an organic shape. Like your shoulder or most any flesh-covered part of your body, it is the shape of liquid contained in a slightly elastic bladder: round. Ideally, a natural shoulder garment would have the shape of paint sprayed on your shoulder.

The real world limitation to achieving the ideal natural shoulder is similar to trying to paper a globe with a two-dimensional map. The most ingenius geometry of cutting the two-dimensional cloth and wrapping it around the shoulder does not achieve perfect conformity.

The question, then, is: What is the best approximation or simulation or illusion of a natural shoulder that is practical to execute (repeatedly, in the case of manufactured coats) in cloth? Given all the advantages of bespoke tailoring, it may be that A&S produces the most nearly ideal natural shoulder. Within the confines of manufactured clothing that is widely accessible to the members of this board, several strategies are used to achieve what will satisfy the customer seeking a natural or soft shoulder. Usually a maker chasing that (admittedly small) market will emphasize one verifiable element of their own strategy (lack of padding, narrow point-to-point, angle or position of the shoulder seam, etc) as the hallmark of a "true" natural shoulder garment.

All of the strategies for constructing a natural shoulder on a production coat, however, compromise the ideal in the interest of fitting more customers. Human shoulders come in a wide variety of shapes. The structural elements (padding, etc) within the coat serve two functions in shaping the coat. One is concealed, providing a physical buffer between unpredictably shaped human shoulders and the exterior of the coat; the second is exposed, substituting a simulated shoulder shape for the flesh shoulder concealed within. The tailor's art is in creating a convincing simulated shoulder. As in representational painting, there are "tricks" of perspective contrived to disguise the natural imperfections of three dimensional projection. Not that the "tricks" fool anyone looking at a painted picture or a padded shoulder. The tricks or techniques are unavoidable shortfalls that we agree by convention to silently ignore. We know that neither the picture nor the shoulder replicates nature. We criticize either performance based on how well it achieves the possible.

What the tailor is trying to achieve in the shoulder of a coat is a natural "expression." One strategy that has been co-opted by Italian makers such as Kiton is the "shirt sleeve" shoulder, once a common term of art among American natural shoulder makers when being the "king" of natural shoulders meant something. The shirt sleeve shoulder is padless and relies for its support only on the welted seaming of the coat's skin. Nonetheless, it is possible to achieve an unnatural expression in a padless shoulder by the geometry of cutting the pieces and joining them with an armature of supportive seams. Conversely, it is possible to achieve a natural, rounded expression by cutting the pieces differently and padding it artfully.

The thickness or thinness of shoulder padding, then, cannot be used as the sole criterion of the natural-ness of a shoulder. A blind man cannot detect a natural shoulder by feeling for padding. And just because an Armani deconstructed suit is bereft of padding does not prove its kinship to a Southwick or Norman Hilton example of a natural shoulder.


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Strict Constructionist*



familyman said:


> Orvis also has some unconstructed jackets with no padding at all in the shoulder. It's more like wearing a sweatshirt than a jacket comfort wise.


You're right, the term "unconstructed jacket" is often used to describe the most extreme version of the "natural shoulder".

What drives me crazy, is that it also almost always means patch pockets, with no flaps on the lower two.

I can live with the patch poket on the chest, but no flaps? C'mon!

Slit pockets with no flaps may look okay on a very highly tailored Italian suit. Not my thing, but a nice look for people who drive Italian sports cars and wear $900.00 sockless loafers with a suit and a wool t-shirt.

Is it just me, or do you all hate the look of patch pockets with no flaps?

Perhaps the unconstructed jackets are what people mean by the term "unflappable". I always thought that term came from the origins of the OCBD.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

ROI - great post. Very informative.

dpihl - I like patches without flaps.


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

A while back in this thread, I said, "One strategy that has been co-opted by Italian makers such as Kiton is the "shirt sleeve" shoulder, once a common term of art among American natural shoulder makers when being the "king" of natural shoulders meant something. The shirt sleeve shoulder is padless and relies for its support only on the welted seaming of the coat's skin. Nonetheless, *it is possible to achieve an unnatural expression in a padless shoulder by the geometry of cutting the pieces and joining them with an armature of supportive seams.* Conversely, it is possible to achieve a natural, rounded expression by cutting the pieces differently and padding it artfully."

While I was staking out the clothing market in preparation for my fall buy, I was flipping through the Samuelsohn model charts and specs. One Samuelsohn coat model, the one I've been buying for the past few seasons, is called Talbott and is described as having a "padless shirt-sleeve shoulder." Another model is characterized as having a "padless roped shoulder." Samuelsohn's conventional natural shoulder model is called Greenwich which, while smooth and round, is padded.

That is a practical, real-world example of "expression," the shaping of a shoulder that is "natural" or "soft" (the shirt-sleeve version) vs a shoulder that is the opposite of "natural" (the roped shoulder) despite both being unpadded. Comparing the roped unpadded model with the padded natural shoulder model, it is unmistakable which is has the more natural expression. The decisive factor in defining a "natural shoulder" is not the absence of padding, but the sculptural shape called "expression."


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Did you see and/or read about the Kent? I know there's padding, but it's a fairly soft shoulder.

I would guess the Southwick Douglas model's shoulder resembles the Greenwich' shoulder, eh?

Orvis' new fall stock of Harris Tweeds are described as follows:
"Our most relaxed handwoven Harris Tweed sport coat, constructed without stiff shoulder pads. The style rests much more easily and comfortably on the shoulders than does a more formal traditional sport coat, making this your option for more informal gatherings..."

It should be pointed out that while lacking stiff shoulder padding, they're fully lined.

There's also this one by Orvis. I wonder who the "Canadian master tailors" are:


And this one, "free of lining and padding":


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Harris said:


> Orvis' new fall stock of Harris Tweeds are described as follows:
> "Our most relaxed handwoven Harris Tweed sport coat, constructed without stiff shoulder pads. The style rests much more easily and comfortably on the shoulders than does a more formal traditional sport coat, making this your option for more informal gatherings..."
> 
> It should be pointed out that while lacking stiff shoulder padding, they're fully lined.
> ...


How is the quality of the Orvis jackets? I have purchased Orvis chinos and brown bucks in the past year from Sierra Trading Post and thought they were not bad but nothing special. I wouldn't have paid full price for them.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Hard to say. It seems that we can't nail down the identity of the manufacturer. Or maybe (more likely) there are several.


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## jcbmath (Jan 11, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> "Natural shoulder" to me has always meant that the jacket seam is at the real shoulder -- hence the term "natural shoulder" -- rather than heavily padded and extending beyond the real biological shoulder.
> 
> The photo below shows this fairly well: Bolton is wearing a natural shoulder sack suit while GWB is wearing a heavily padded _non-_natural shoulder suit. Note how the shoulder's on GWB's suit appear to be hovering out to the sides beyond where we would expect his real shoulders to be, while on Bolton's suit the suit shoulders are right at his real shoulders.


This is such a great picture. Bolton's clothing looks SO much better than Bush's. Its also one of the few times I've seen Bush the younger with a tie dimple.


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## Financier (Mar 6, 2006)

Wow. To me, Bolton looks like complete crap in that picture. Odd roll in the shirt collar, poor tie knot, no shirt cuff, bubbling on the lapel. 

You might not like the President's style, but he is well dressed in this picture.


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## chat_chapeau (Dec 2, 2005)

Financier, I'm not sure how to explain it, but others here undoubtedly can. I just know it when I see it. "Neat" vs. "sloppy" doesn't exactly translate to "well-dressed" vs. "not-well-dressed." A little help, men?


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*Comments on this picture that is being kicked around here...*

G W's clothing doesn't really need much further description here, I think. I think someone said Oxxford, and that would make sense. It isn't to my taste but most people would say he looks very handsomely dressed. I don't particularly care for the slight sheen that his suit displays.

Bolton's outfit doesn't make much of a case for trad, though. His suit looks a tad bit small, like he has expanded a size or two and is perhaps a little the worse for wear. Someone mentioned bubbling on the lapel and I think I see that too. His button-down collar is, however, an example of the non-liberty-bell roll that brooks shirts are sometimes seen to display. I'm not sure its a bb, but could be. Altogether I'd describe it as trad "by the book" but also as an outfit that isn't going to attract anybody who isn't a hard-core trad. A bit boring and stodgy--and the bubbling lapels also make it look a bit cheap.

Just my .02.
===========
having just looked again at the photo, I take that back, about Bolton's suit looking small. The collar and shoulders seem to fit quite well. It's just that beat-up looking lapel that threw me. And, upon further reflection, his dark navy tie goes well with his university-striped button-down.

Markus


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I don't think the liberty bell roll is the only OCBD collar roll that's legitimately Trad. None of my (older) Press OCBDs naturally roll to a liberty bell shape. Nor do my Ben Silver OCBDs. Come to think of it, a great many of my old USA-made Brooks OCBDs don't either. It's easy to create/acheive--a certain thumb and index finger pinch in just the right place will do it--but, again, I'm not sure it's essential.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Where is the 'bubbling' on Bolton's lapel?


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## JDDY (Mar 18, 2006)

AlanC said:


> Where is the 'bubbling' on Bolton's lapel?


Is it the outer-most portion of the lapel?

I'm not sure who's better dressed, but I strongly prefer the look of that natural shoulder.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Markus said:


> In my experience, it is not enough that a shoulder simply have minimal or no padding. The ultimate would be something that is closer to a sloping shoulder. This is very hard to find.
> 
> Markus


Think about it. If the shoulder of the backet is unpadded then it rests on the wearer's natural shoulder. There is no padding to prop it up and make it straigher but there is no way to make it slope more than the wearer's shoulders themselves slope.

So an unpadded or lightly padded coat will have a slope to the degree that your shoulders have a slope. And most men have somewhat to very sloped shoulders. So sloped coats are as common as lightly padded ones - which is not very common.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Harris said:


> The scandal of trad is that the softest shoulder on the planet is made not by Southwick or H. Freeman, but likely by Anderson & Sheppard. One of my colleagues returned from GB with an A&S suit. Among the more handsome garments I've ever seen. Period. What I wouldn't give to spend just a few hours in the A&S cutting room. The A&S cut is enough to convert a hardcore trad to darts.
> 
> No one (among us) wants to admit the harsh and painful truth, which is that neither the Southwick nor even the Izzy-made H. Freeman can match the shoulder softness of an A & S...
> ~Harris


In the Anglo-American tradition, you are very correct in saying that A&S (and I would include the new independents who spent some time at A&S) makes the softest shoulder around. See on Thomas Mahon's (formerly of A&S) blog for an explanation of how the shoulder is made using soft 'wadding' rather than pre-made padding.

But people who have only bought American or English suits have probably never seen a genuinely unpadded shoulder. I believe this is what iammatt was referring to. A genuinely unpadded shoulder is a Neopolitan thing - I've only ever seen it on Kiton MTM suits. Frank Shattuck was also able to make Manton a completely unpadded shoulder. From what I remeber, it only had an extra layer of horse hair to give it the necessary structure to not fall apart which is about as soft as you can possibly get.

For an erudite discussion of what an unpadded shoulder really is see Manton's Neopolitan Shoulder Explained. Most trads would be rather put off by the look of a genuinely unpadded shoulder.

For me, the true trad shoulder is lightly padded. Not too soft and with a clean sleevehead - i.e. no rollino or roping about the shoulder.

Izzy has claimed to be able to make a 'unpadded' (his word, not mine) shoulder. I will soon see how it turns out and will report back.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

While I thoroughly enjoy alot of what Izzy produces, a true natural shoulder is not one of them. I have had 2 of his MTM suits made, and he hasnt been able to get the shoulder as unpadded as I require. This isnt to disparage Izzy in any way, shape or form. He delivers a great product at an even better price.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Phil, haven't you invested in quite a lot of Blue Label goods? Were you the one who was going to investigate the "Princeton" model?


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

Harris, that is correct. I had reported back I thought. The princeton model was depicted in their book as a two button, and if I remember correctly, had no darts. I could be wrong about that though, so dont hold me to it. They didnt have a tip over 3 button model with no darts though. I am going back there in about 2 weeks and will provide an update though. I am going to order a heavy tweed Norfolk coat from them this season. They make perfect full Norfolk coats (at least for my frame)


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Phil said:


> Harris, that is correct. I had reported back I thought. The princeton model was depicted in their book as a two button, and if I remember correctly, had no darts. I could be wrong about that though, so dont hold me to it. They didnt have a tip over 3 button model with no darts though. I am going back there in about 2 weeks and will provide an update though. I am going to order a heavy tweed Norfolk coat from them this season. They make perfect full Norfolk coats (at least for my frame)


Phil,

Does this mean that the trunk show is in two weeks?


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Phil said:


> While I thoroughly enjoy alot of what Izzy produces, a true natural shoulder is not one of them. I have had 2 of his MTM suits made, and he hasnt been able to get the shoulder as unpadded as I require. This isnt to disparage Izzy in any way, shape or form. He delivers a great product at an even better price.


From what I have seen of his past offerings, I would completely agree. He claims to have started using a new MTM factory (in addition to H Freeman and the other one he has used in the past) that can make a very soft shoulder. But I will believe it when I see it.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

I dont know the exact dates, but I have ordered from them the second week of Sept each of the past 3 years, so I believe so.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Phil, is it possible to get the lapels done by hand (for a surcharge) with either the Blue or Purple Label MTM?


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

That is a very good question. It might be possible, but I dont know for sure. The best thing to do is to contact Kim Riley at the NYC store. Ive worked with her for years, shes the best there is. She will let you know. 

While the blue label MTM can be very flexible - Ive had them radically alter their pants for me (lengthening of rise, increase in bottom leg diameter), other times they can be awfully rigid (I asked for one of their models be made with a single vent instead of two, and was denied).

Im a huge fan of Polo MTM though. Im actually wearing a heavyweight tan linen Norfolk jacket I got last summer through that program.


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## Hard2Fit (May 11, 2005)

MTM starts Sept. 9th at my local PRL (Chevy Chase).


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Re: Princeton

For 30 years PRL has occasionally proffered "Princeton 2" and "Princeton 3" models. "Princeton" is the nomenclature for a 3 patch pocket, center vented jacket. There have been variations depending on cloth, etc. Lightweights have sometimes had no shoulder pads. Most had quarter inch welted machine topstitching on the: collar edge, lapel and front edges, pocket edges, pocket flaps (if any) edges, shoulder seams, top of the arm seams, outside sleeve seams and back center seam. I think the early blazers had hooked center vents. PRL may have at times offered a sack variation, but the standard has been darted. The preceeding may have changed with Corneliani.

Bolton's "bubbled" lapel: May be where the thread of the edge stitching has shrunk, thus puckering the lapel edges. This sometimes happens even in Oxxford lightweight fabric. It is often more and indication of hand pick stitching rather than machine sewn edges, or plain "bluffed" edges. It also happens in hand pick stitching when there is too much tension in the stitch.

Re: Cantabridigian..."lapels done by hand"? Are you referencing external edge stitching or internal canvas "pad" stitching in the lapel. Hand edge stitching is standard on most RTW PRL and all RLPL. Hand "pick" stitching on edges of the collar, lapels, chest pocket, and pocket flaps. RLPL is internally hand "pad" stitched. I think PRL has a machine pad stitched strip at the roll and canvassed lapels. That may depend on the model.

PRL got off the path in the 90's with some square-ish shoulders, but the more current ones rival earlier Polo for a rather rounded sleeve head, especially in the fully tailored tweed odd jackets.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

I've never seen Bush in a suit that he looks good in. Who ever makes them for him isn't even trying, or doesn't have a clue what to do. They don't fit him. They don't move with him. There just awful. His suits are so bad you would think all the democrats would vote for him.

With all the money he has he really should find a tailor that make suits that he fits in.

Bolton's body is fairly normal, much easier to dress.

When I look at Bush's jackets there are so many errors - it is mind boggling.


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## Mad4Madras (Jul 24, 2006)

Is it possible to simply remove the padding from a jacket?

I have acquired a patch madras jacket, and it seems a bit too broad and linebackery at the shoulders to me. Were I to remove the shoulder pads, would it have a more natural look? This jacket just might be a suitable subject for experimentation, as I don't have much invested in it, and it isn't a high-quality coat, anyway...

Thoughts?


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

jamgood said:


> Re: Princeton
> 
> For 30 years PRL has occasionally proffered "Princeton 2" and "Princeton 3" models. "Princeton" is the nomenclature for a 3 patch pocket, center vented jacket. There have been variations depending on cloth, etc. Lightweights have sometimes had no shoulder pads. Most had quarter inch welted machine topstitching on the: collar edge, lapel and front edges, pocket edges, pocket flaps (if any) edges, shoulder seams, top of the arm seams, outside sleeve seams and back center seam. I think the early blazers had hooked center vents. PRL may have at times offered a sack variation, but the standard has been darted. The preceeding may have changed with Corneliani.
> 
> ...


Excellent post with too many good points to count.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

jamgood said:


> Bolton's "bubbled" lapel: May be where the thread of the edge stitching has shrunk, thus puckering the lapel edges. This sometimes happens even in Oxxford lightweight fabric. It is often more and indication of hand pick stitching rather than machine sewn edges, or plain "bluffed" edges. It also happens in hand pick stitching when there is too much tension in the stitch.


Yes, it looked to me more like hand work than bubbling from fusing.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

jamgood said:


> Re: Cantabridigian..."lapels done by hand"? Are you referencing external edge stitching or internal canvas "pad" stitching in the lapel. Hand edge stitching is standard on most RTW PRL and all RLPL. Hand "pick" stitching on edges of the collar, lapels, chest pocket, and pocket flaps. RLPL is internally hand "pad" stitched. I think PRL has a machine pad stitched strip at the roll and canvassed lapels. That may depend on the model.


Thanks. I was specifically thinking of pad-stitching as opposed to pick stitching which, though nice, isn't that important to me.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Mad4Madras said:


> Is it possible to simply remove the padding from a jacket?
> 
> I have acquired a patch madras jacket, and it seems a bit too broad and linebackery at the shoulders to me. Were I to remove the shoulder pads, would it have a more natural look? This jacket just might be a suitable subject for experimentation, as I don't have much invested in it, and it isn't a high-quality coat, anyway...
> 
> Thoughts?


Chris Despos answered this question on the Fashion Forum much better than I can so it may be worth it to try searching but I don't think that's generally a good idea.

Your madras jacket's shoulder is currently made around the average guy's natural shoulder plus some moderate (or heavy) padding. So the cloth is now covering an area that is much more raised and square than John Q. Public's natural shoulders.

If you have very - very - square shoulders, you may be fine with just having the pads removed. But even if you do have supernaturally square shoulders, there will likely be some excess cloth sticking out over the edge of your natural shoulder.

You could then either add some soft wadding to make up the difference. And no matter what you do, the shoulder will have to be lowered a bit. I believe that is a difficult operation or at the very least a somewhat costly one.

For all the potential risks, if you really don't care about potentially ruining the coat, it could be fun to see how it turns out.


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