# Great khakis - next best to Bills?



## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

OK, Bills are great. What's next best? Preferably available in stores to try on.

Thinkin' about JCrew or Polo, but I could do without the horse.

Real all cotton, no non-iron.

Slim build.


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## Annapolitan (Jun 24, 2011)

I've had good experiences with Berle Charleston Khakis, but don't know about current quality or slim fit options. Mine are all 7+ years old.


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## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

I've come to be a devotee of Brooks Advantage Clark fit. Love 'em.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Jack Donnelly. Great khakis. No store, but free shipping both ways.


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## Christophe (Oct 27, 2010)

Does anyone know of good khakis, like Bills, that are available in a 28 or 29 waist? I think all the companies listed here only go down to 30. Thanks!


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## statboy (Sep 1, 2010)

Brooks Brothers. Lands End is my personal favorite, but of course you can't try on to easy. You can get them unfinished, so you know, you can make them actually fit your inseam.

Jcrew is junk. They are all pre-distressed and get crunchy after 5 washes. If you must go the mall route, I suggest GAP over Banana or Jcrew or Polo (for the horse reason).


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

statboy said:


> Jcrew is junk. They are all pre-distressed and get crunchy after 5 washes.


Wow, this hasn't been my experience. I've had several pairs for years and I still find them quite serviceable. I especially like the essential chinos in the classic fit. I have Bill's and I honestly don't think that they're that far above and beyond J Crew chinos, from a materials and construction standpoint.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Deeply discounted Bills are better than regular (priced). STP is the place. Just sign up on Deal Flyers.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Also watch eBay seller mizzb for Bill's seconds.


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## sjk (Dec 1, 2007)

Try these:

www.ralphlauren.com/product/index.j...760810&ab=ln_men_cs1_chinos&parentPage=family

www.ralphlauren.com/product/index.j...760810&ab=ln_men_cs1_chinos&parentPage=family

They are essentially the same pant, just different color sets. (Not sure why they gave them different names, but RL tends to do this sometimes.)

Entirely logo-free. Available at Bloomingdale's if you want to try them on (at least the stores near me). Cut is just a bit trimmer than Bills M2 to my estimation (but not nearly like the M3).


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

Patrick06790 said:


> Also watch eBay seller mizzb for Bill's seconds.


Are you sure of that name? It didn't seem to pan out for me.


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## Andy Roo (Jan 25, 2007)

Taken Aback said:


> Are you sure of that name? It didn't seem to pan out for me.


mizbb


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Dont forget JPress which have a dressier finish then Bills and a nicer cut than M2's I think (though make and fabric are not as good).


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

Andy Roo said:


> mizbb


Cheers.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Bills M3's are the best khakis I can find, and I live so close to the Great STP In The Center Of The Universe that orders sometimes arrive the next day. One cycle of hottest wash and hottest dry, followed by a visit to the alterations shop for cuffs, and I have well-made, long wearing, wrinkle resistant khakis that fit. My second choice is LE Tailored Fit. After some fussing, I know what cuffed length to order to accomodate shrinkage. The fit is nearly as good as Bills, they resist wrinkles surprisingly well, steam out easily on trips and the quality is acceptable. I continue to fear that the general decline of LE will reach Tailored Fit khakis, but I have not noticed it so far.


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## leisureclass (Jan 31, 2011)

Christophe said:


> Does anyone know of good khakis, like Bills, that are available in a 28 or 29 waist? I think all the companies listed here only go down to 30. Thanks!


I have a pair of BB Clarks sitting unworn in my closet that are tagged 30 but measure a little bit less. I only tried them on, got them next to new. PM if you're interested, I'd let em go cheap.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

godan said:


> My second choice is LE Tailored Fit. After some fussing, I know what cuffed length to order to accomodate shrinkage. The fit is nearly as good as Bills, they resist wrinkles surprisingly well, steam out easily on trips and the quality is acceptable. I continue to fear that the general decline of LE will reach Tailored Fit khakis, but I have not noticed it so far.


Are these the Originals? How much longer for shrinkage?

LE colors seem a bit off (I like traditional khaki-khaki, and stone, not taupe or dark tan or whatever). I have some LE Legacy that I don't like much. The khaki color is too reddish, the stone too white, and overall they're thin and and worn-out looking. They're OK for very casual wear but not business casual. I will say the cut is excellent, but mine are Traditional and the legs too wide on me. Tailored would probably be great.

To everyone else: thanks. I won't find Charleston or JPress around SoCal though.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

Himself said:


> Are these the Originals? How much longer for shrinkage?


I just checked the website. My last pair were plain front no iron tailored fit. It is hard to say how much shrinkage to estimate, because fabrics and anatomies vary. I'm 5'7" with a 30" waist and (usually) a 28 1/4" inseam. A good point of departure, again depending on fabric, etc., might be 3/8". Good luck with this. You had some interesting, valuable responses.


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## Walter Denton (Sep 11, 2011)

I am an advocate for Orvis Ultimate khakis. Excellent fabric and fit, at least for me. They have a nice selection of colors including a traditional khaki. At two pairs for $120 I think the price is right. Unless you have an Orvis store nearby, though, you won't find a pair to try.


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## Bruce Wayne (Mar 10, 2008)

I'll probably be criticized for this, but I find Dockers' Soft Khaki to be a very good option. I have three pairs in different hues and they're the most satisfying chinos I've worn so far outside of J.Crew (especially for the price). The fit and fabric seems very close to that of J Crew's Regular fit chinos as well. Also, in my opinion, they're comparable to or better than Lands' End's offerings from the past couple years.


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## EngProf (Apr 27, 2008)

Himself said:


> OK, Bills are great. What's next best? Preferably available in stores to try on.
> 
> Real all cotton, no non-iron.
> 
> Slim build.


Kevin's. Not in stores nationwide, though. A little cheaper than Bill's and very good. Sometimes on sale.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

Himself said:


> Are these the Originals? How much longer for shrinkage?
> 
> LE colors seem a bit off (I like traditional khaki-khaki, and stone, not taupe or dark tan or whatever). I have some LE Legacy that I don't like much. The khaki color is too reddish, the stone too white, and overall they're thin and and worn-out looking. They're OK for very casual wear but not business casual. I will say the cut is excellent, but mine are Traditional and the legs too wide on me. Tailored would probably be great.
> 
> To everyone else: thanks. I won't find Charleston or JPress around SoCal though.


I line dry my clothes, so can't comment on shrinkage. I will say, however, that I just got 2 pair of LE originals in British Khaki. The color is imo perfect. But the fabric is weird. It doesn't feel like cotton, and it is--I can't think of a better word--blotchy. I think they'll be fine as mid to heavy weight casual trousers, but they are not very refined, even for khakis.


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## MidWestTrad (Aug 14, 2010)

BB Advantage I wear when I need something more on the dressier side. Orvis ultimate khakis for more casual. Both are great.


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## Tiger (Apr 11, 2010)

P Hudson said:


> I line dry my clothes, so can't comment on shrinkage. I will say, however, that I just got 2 pair of LE originals in British Khaki. The color is imo perfect. But the fabric is weird. It doesn't feel like cotton, and it is--I can't think of a better word--blotchy. I think they'll be fine as mid to heavy weight casual trousers, but they are not very refined, even for khakis.


Just to clarify: There's a big difference between the LE "Original" chinos and the LE "Casual" chinos. The Original chinos are quite refined, and can be worn with a blazer and tie. The Casual chinos are heavier, far more relaxed, and would be out of place with a blazer, tie, et al.


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## MacTweed (Oct 30, 2011)

Annapolitan said:


> I've had good experiences with Berle Charleston Khakis, but don't know about current quality or slim fit options. Mine are all 7+ years old.


I just found a pair of Berle Charleston Khakis, new with tags, at Goodwill. They are unfinished, so I will have to have them tailored. But I can attest that these khakis are high quality. In fact I spotted them from a considerable distance away. If you have had yours for 7+ years, I assume they are holding up well then?

I notice that you can order them online: Charleston Khakis by Berle $88.50


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Ya know, there comes a time when the only right thing to do is go out and buy a pair of Bill's! I have purchased (I think it's up to) eleven pair of Bill's M1 and M2's and have purchased and returned a total of four pair of M3's (the fit just did not work for me!). I am one of three people in these fora who have seen fit to criticize Bill's Khakies due to their rather average durability, given the higher price of their product offerings. Bill's are well made of quality materials and they do look good (frequently better than other branded khakies) on almost everyone, assuming the proper design (M1, M2, M3, pleated or plain) are well matched with our respective body shapes. If you are looking for a pair of chinos that will last forever, Bill's are not what you are looking for. If you are looking for a better value for the dollars spent...again, Bill's may not be what you are looking for. However, if you are looking for chinos that will leave you looking better, than have any other chinos that have graced your respective derriers, Bill just may be it! Certainly, if you are using Bill's khakies as your standard of measure for chinio designs (as the OP seems to be doing), then you owe it to yourself to buy a pair of Bill's and wear them...just to find out for yourself what all the hoopla is about!


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## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

Gentlemen

Any one of them. My favorite, is the J Crew worn one. J Crwe has my size. 30 waist, 30 length. Works for me.

I have worn all kinds of khaki, first in the service. Have done the Polo route, Brooks brothers, and Bills and so on and so on.

My advice, do not pay the Bills price, nor charleston price for every day wear.

My last job I was on a contract with the state department with a sub contractor. I was the medical director in Iraq for this company. Providing security to state department officials etc. So a lot of khaki wearing was needed. A lot of brass etc!
I used DOCKERS at a less than 40 dollar pop.
For your information, Dockers take a beating, go with every other day washings, and actually are a good investment, if you need daily washings, and every other day to every 3 day wearing.
Other wise, take your pick.
The J Crew worn khaki, has lasted me about 3-4 years with rountine wearing.
I wash, do not dry khaki FUI

Nice day


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

MidWestTrad said:


> BB Advantage I wear when I need something more on the dressier side. Orvis ultimate khakis for more casual. Both are great.


Two great khakis, indeed! Very different in nature--but both great for different reasons. If Orvis keeps offering their ultimate khakis in a good range of colors and at reasonable prices as they have been lately--they could be a serious contender for Bills business. BB Advantage Chinos are, without question, the best looking and fitting (5 fits) of any non-iron khaki on the market. They really are non-iron but don't look it.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

If you have an interest in Bill's, you might want to check out the final sale at cladmen:

https://www.cladmen.com/brands/bill-s-khakis.html

Prices seem to be even cheaper than posted sale price after adding items to the cart.


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## SCsailor (Jul 2, 2008)

i've worn Bill's, J Crew, and Brooks Brothers. By far, the Brooks advantage chinos are my favorite. Get them when they are on sale. I doubt I'll buy anything else as long as BB keeps making them like these.


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## MKC (Sep 10, 2010)

. A bit trimmer than Bill's M1, a bit less expensive than Bill's, still made in USA. Not sure if they are right for you? Call them. The owner, Gregg Donnelly, answers phone calls and email. It's like dealing with David Mercer and Kyle Rancourt -- the best in customer service.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

Taken Aback said:


> If you have an interest in Bill's, you might want to check out the final sale at cladmen:
> 
> https://www.cladmen.com/brands/bill-s-khakis.html
> 
> Prices seem to be even cheaper than posted sale price after adding items to the cart.


I didn't find anything there that I wanted, but thanks for the link. There are definitely some good values there.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

eagle2250 said:


> Ya know, there comes a time when the only right thing to do is go out and buy a pair of Bill's! I have purchased (I think it's up to) eleven pair of Bill's M1 and M2's and have purchased and returned a total of four pair of M3's (the fit just did not work for me!). I am one of three people in these fora who have seen fit to criticize Bill's Khakies due to their rather average durability, given the higher price of their product offerings. Bill's are well made of quality materials and they do look good (frequently better than other branded khakies) on almost everyone, assuming the proper design (M1, M2, M3, pleated or plain) are well matched with our respective body shapes. If you are looking for a pair of chinos that will last forever, Bill's are not what you are looking for. If you are looking for a better value for the dollars spent...again, Bill's may not be what you are looking for. However, if you are looking for chinos that will leave you looking better, than have any other chinos that have graced your respective derriers, Bill just may be it! Certainly, if you are using Bill's khakies as your standard of measure for chinio designs (as the OP seems to be doing), then you owe it to yourself to buy a pair of Bill's and wear them...just to find out for yourself what all the hoopla is about!


Final point well taken, but I have no problem with Bills quality, durability or value, and I don't think many people do.


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

Saltydog said:


> If Orvis keeps offering their ultimate khakis in a good range of colors and at reasonable prices as they have been lately--they could be a serious contender for Bills business.


Looks like they are almost completely out of the various non khaki colored alternatives and have them listed as "not available." As usual, I snoozed. Hopefully they will bring them back, no telling when though. I find that it really is a mistake to take anything for granted these days. I have a few extra pairs of the ultimate's stashed, but I need to re-supply.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

Do the Orvis ultimate khakis have a front rise comparable to Bills M2?

And for those curious about Jack Donnelly khakis, here is the info on them about their front/back rise:



> Based on a size 34, our flat front khaki measurements are as follows:
> 
> 
> Front Rise - 12"
> ...


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## jph712 (Mar 22, 2007)

hardline_42 said:


> Wow, this hasn't been my experience. I've had several pairs for years and I still find them quite serviceable. I especially like the essential chinos in the classic fit. I have Bill's and I honestly don't think that they're that far above and beyond J Crew chinos, from a materials and construction standpoint.


I second this, I have 4 pair of the classic fit Essentials that I've have for 3-4 years, and while I've worn the cuffs to the point of being week-end only pants, they have lasted very well.


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## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

I have to go with Bill's, mainly because you can always get more of the same. I am tired of having to "buy out everything in my size off the rack" just to have more than one good fitting pair to last for a while.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Taken Aback said:


> If you have an interest in Bill's, you might want to check out the final sale at cladmen:
> 
> https://www.cladmen.com/brands/bill-s-khakis.html
> 
> Prices seem to be even cheaper than posted sale price after adding items to the cart.


Yes they are, by about another 25 percent. I got two pairs of twills for about $75.


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## Tremont 974 (Jul 16, 2008)

Patrick06790 said:


> Yes they are, by about another 25 percent. I got two pairs of twills for about $75.


Do you happen to know which model these are? The descriptions don't tell whether M1, M2 or M3.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

If 42 wasn't only an aspiration at this point, I'd have jumped on it as well.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Indeed, what a deal! Just ordered two pair of Bill's Cramerton Twills, normally priced at $175 a pair, for a total of $129, delivered to my front door. Hard not to be a fan of Bill's at those prices? :thumbs-up:


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## TSWalker (Nov 2, 2011)

Taken Aback said:


> If you have an interest in Bill's, you might want to check out the final sale at cladmen:
> 
> https://www.cladmen.com/brands/bill-s-khakis.html
> 
> Prices seem to be even cheaper than posted sale price after adding items to the cart.


I've ordered my first pair because of this post. Thank you. Any tips on shrinkage?


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

TSWalker said:


> I've ordered my first pair because of this post. Thank you. Any tips on shrinkage?


One cycle of hottest wash and hottest dry, then off for cuffing.


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## jwooten (Dec 19, 2010)

godan said:


> One cycle of hottest wash and hottest dry, then off for cuffing.


I would go ahead and wash atleast twice. Bill's are notorious for early shrinkage.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
+1. My wife launders mine three or four times before hemming or cuffing them.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

The extra discount isn't showing up for me. Do I have to go further through the checkout process? Those cords look like a nice deal too.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Taken Aback said:


> If you have an interest in Bill's, you might want to check out the final sale at cladmen:
> 
> https://www.cladmen.com/brands/bill-s-khakis.html
> 
> Prices seem to be even cheaper than posted sale price after adding items to the cart.


No mention of M2/M3. You'd think that would be useful to know


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Himself said:


> The extra discount isn't showing up for me. Do I have to go further through the checkout process? Those cords look like a nice deal too.


Not knowing how far you went in the checkout process, I am assuming yes, you need to proceed further. The final cost will appear before you are asked to confirm your order.


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## Dr. D (Nov 19, 2010)

I am still seeing the discount. Go to the cart and look at the gray box on the right of the screen- it should have the discount listed there under the subtotal. You shouldn't have to even start the checkout to see the discount applied.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

hookem12387 said:


> No mention of M2/M3. You'd think that would be useful to know


Yes, that turned me away from the site despite its selection and prices. M3's fit me; others do not, and I could not puzzle out what, if anything, there was M3.


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## ballmouse (Jul 30, 2011)

They are M1. I spoke with one of the customer service reps.


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## godan (Feb 10, 2010)

ballmouse said:


> They are M1. I spoke with one of the customer service reps.


Thanks for the imformative and timely post.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Indeed, what a deal! Just ordered two pair of Bill's Cramerton Twills, normally priced at $175 a pair, for a total of $129, delivered to my front door. Hard not to be a fan of Bill's at those prices? :thumbs-up:





ballmouse said:


> They are M1. I spoke with one of the customer service reps.


Late yesterday afternoon the UPS driver dropped the two pair of Cramerton Twills I ordered at my front door. They are the M2 cut. Fantastic value at the price purchased and what a class act www.cladmen.com has proven to be. The trousers were each delivered attractively gift boxed, with the invoice, return shipping labels and a thank you note enclosed in a matching sealed black portfolio. I suspect this is going to be the first of many purchases from these folks by me! :thumbs-up:


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> Late yesterday afternoon the UPS driver dropped the two pair of Cramerton Twills I ordered at my front door. They are the M2 cut. Fantastic value at the price purchased and what a class act www.cladmen.com has proven to be. The trousers were each delivered attractively gift boxed, with the invoice, return shipping labels and a thank you note enclosed in a matching sealed black portfolio. I suspect this is going to be the first of many purchases from these folks by me! :thumbs-up:


They're going out of business, so I doubt it! Sorry


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

OK, I'm ordering now. They're showing up as $60. I hope they still have my size!

The cords look nice too. Anyone try those?

And there are some Trafalgar belts, for under $30.


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## ballmouse (Jul 30, 2011)

From what I understand, the non-USA Trafalgar belts are not very good and don't compare with the USA made ones. The ones on cladmen seem to be the non-USA ('Imported') kind. Of course, I've never handled them, so I could be mistaken.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

ballmouse said:


> From what I understand, the non-USA Trafalgar belts are not very good and don't compare with the USA made ones. The ones on cladmen seem to be the non-USA ('Imported') kind. Of course, I've never handled them, so I could be mistaken.


Thanks for that. Mine are all >15 years old and probably USA.

I zoomed in on one of Cladmen's and it looked pretty junky.

Back to the Bills, I ordered some Cramertons but they're going fast. Plenty of cords left though.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

hookem12387 said:


> They're going out of business, so I doubt it! Sorry


Arrgh! Now just how did I manage to miss that little detail? LOL, hookem, if the snow outside had not already done so, this would have really put a damper on my Saturday afternoon!


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

They're taking their time, though. Martin + Osa went under much faster, and screwed me on an order in the process, so be thankful.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Tremont 974 said:


> Do you happen to know which model these are? The descriptions don't tell whether M1, M2 or M3.


Mine arrived today, they are M2s. I'm easy, I can and do wear all of them, but M2 works best.

Edit: I should add, these are the "vintage twills" in what they call grey and I call blueish grey.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

Walter Denton posted a new code for an additional 25% off elsewhere:

*febfamily*


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