# Bespoke tailor - are his suits any good?



## Edouard (May 30, 2006)

Dear all,

I know absolutely nothing about bespoke suits so would appreciate your sartorially more knowledgeable advice. I found this "budget" bespoke tailoring house, King and Allen, which apparently is not based in Hong Kong but in Surrey yet will produce a bespoke suit for you in 6 weeks, for £200-300 (£279 for a black tie ensemble for example).
Their website (with many examples of their work):

Where's the catch? Why is an England-based tailor charging only £200 for a suit, when Savile row is more around £2000? Should I go for it, or go through the trouble of contacting a HK based tailor who has fitting days in London?

Thank you very much for your time,

Edouard


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## 14395 (Mar 10, 2004)

Edouard said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I know absolutely nothing about bespoke suits so would appreciate your sartorially more knowledgeable advice. I found this "budget" bespoke tailoring house, King and Allen, which apparently is not based in Hong Kong but in Surrey yet will produce a bespoke suit for you in 6 weeks, for £200-300 (£279 for a black tie ensemble for example).
> Their website (with many examples of their work):
> ...


Sounds too good to be true. It's quite possible this company just takes measurements and the suits are actually made off shore. Something you need to ask them.


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## Curator (Aug 4, 2005)

They have an ad on the first page of the 2006 Oxford University Student Union's 2006 Handbook and I was curious as well. I don't have any more information unfortunately.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Almost certainly not top-drawer fabric, as a suit length of Lesser's will cost as much as the whole suit from these guys.


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## Edouard (May 30, 2006)

Would it be a good starter suit though? I'm more interested in comfort than style at this stage (will use it for work).


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Ah-- for that, you'll need to ask someone with knowledge, not just opinions. 

For a starter suit to wear to work, fit is the key. If it fits well, you'll feel good in it. If it fits badly, you'll start stretching it out of shape even if it's tailored very well-- and this won't be quite in that category. So if you can't get a reference from someone you trust, I'd go to see how comfortable you are with the salesman doing the measuring. Ask to see one of their suits, and (even better) see if you can check one out on a live person for whom it was made. You'll be able to tell if they botched the fitting.

There's a feature on www.englishcut.com on cheaper suits and how to get good value. Something like "So you can't afford bespoke" or "Suits at 200 pounds." Might be helpful.


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## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

I also wondered this when one of the broadsheets was offering a King and Allen suit as a competition prize (I didn't win, so no chance to find out). I cannot believe that at the price charged what is offered is true bespoke and further perusal of their website suggests that some sort of adjustment of pre-supplied patterns is what is on offer.

A.


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## assassino (Mar 29, 2006)

If it sounds to good to be true - and it certainly does - then it probably isn't. I was at first tempted to venture that what is described as 'bespoke', is infact made-to-measure (MTM), but the prices are still too good to be true. (By the way, MTM is all too often passed-off as 'bespoke ; having said this, the results, given a good factory and a good pattern-grader, can sometimes outstrip bespoke ; after all, there's bespoke and then there's bespoke.)

I am almost certain, as is EP, that said tailor is a mailbox for a foreign manufacturer ; it should appear also, given the prices, that this is a large manufacturer which is able to achieve economies of scale by buying (cheap) fabric in bulk. 

Finally, you will find that you are highly restricted as to styling and fabric choice. 

I can tell you, having researched the matter extensively, that London entry-level bespoke (inclusive of cloth) is about £600.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Don't go there mate.
They're not bespoke tailors at all. They're just abusing the word 'bespoke'.
It's an MTM outfit at the bottom of the quality scale.
You can't get a decent MTM suit for less than £500, it just isn't possible.

Always remember: 'You get what you pay for.'
This expression is particularly true in the case of suits.


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## qasimkhan (Sep 24, 2003)

I say it's worth checking out. 

Perhaps the cost of the fabric is not included in the price (as is the case in many Asian markets where the customer supplies his own fabric). 

Since this shop is outside of London (please excuse my poor knowledge of English geography if this is incorrect), they surely pay a fraction of the rent of a Savile Row shop, and salaries would be less. 

The suits might also be fused into of floating canvas, which would require less labor. While some on the board might shoot me for saying this, a fused suit would be a great entry-level bespoke suit and to me seems to drape and wear almost as well as a floating canvas.

If you check it out, share the results with us!

Steve


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

qasimkhan please don't call it bespoke because it definitely is not that.
What's the point in buying a fused suit that will fall apart as soon as it's dry cleaned? You'll have to buy 3 a year (£600) so you may as well buy a £600 suit in the first place because it'll last you 4/5 years if you look after it.

As for the point about lower rent, they don't have a shop at all so they don't pay any retail rent but that doesn't mean that you're getting £500 worth of suit for £200. It doesn't make that much of a difference.

The simple fact is that you CANNOT buy a decent MTM suit for less than £500. Trust me.


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## Edouard (May 30, 2006)

It did sound too good to be true. Would you recommend instead going for one of the Hong Kong tailors who occasionally visit London? I've heard that they are quite good, to the point of reaching Savile Row standards of quality in some cases, all this for a fraction of the cost.
What do you think?


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

*bespoke???*

how dare they bandy about a term that is highly respected in the UK. this is plain and simple a mtm operation by their own description. if they would do this what else would they do? note this, for lack of any other claim of quality. they say that the jacket and trousers are cut from the same cloth. what else ? even the cheapest mtm does that.


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## Rakesh (May 22, 2006)

Hi all,

From what most people seem to be saying, the Hong Kong based tailors who come over to London and the US are also 'MTM' suit makers as they only take measurements and your other requirement. There are no 1st or 2nd fittings to check that the suit fits properly. Is this a correct assumption?
A few people mentioned the you can get trully bespoke from £600. If this was my budget where would I go? Can you give me some suggestions?

Thanks.


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## chobochobo (May 5, 2006)

A 'nice' suit from Janztens in Hong Kong will cost you 4500HKD (divide by 14.8 for sterling). A good deal with the current exchange rate but I don't think they travel nor do they do mail order suits.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

A few thoughts here:

The notion that a fused suit or jacket "falls apart as soon as it is dry cleaned" is fatuous. I have a fused Nordstrom's blazer that I have had for over 13 years, has been dry cleaned innumerable times and is still an attractive garment giving good service. I have an even cheaper Macy's-Alfani jacket made in Korea that I've had for about six years. It too has been dry cleaned many times. It's starting to look a little tired, but it's still a perfectly serviceable garment.

Do any good Hong Kong tailors tour Britain? The consensus seems to be that the only top-flight HK tailor that does tours is W.W. Chan, and I think they limit their tours to the USA. A-Man Hing Cheong and H. Baroman do not do tours, and I think this is also true of some less well known but well-respected tailors like William Yu and Gordon Yao. Hemrajani Bros. have gotten mixed reviews in these fora. They tour the USA, but I don't know about elsewhere. Raja Fashions, who do tour Britain actively, are not well respected in these fora, but I have no first-hand experience with any itinerant HK tailor except Chan, with whom I am well pleased. Not Savile Row standard, I gather, but excellent value for money. I know there are some HK tailors that tour Britain and not USA, but I know nothing about them.

Regarding whether a touring outfit like Chan gives MTM or bespoke, they do create an individualized pattern for you. Their first effort should be regarded as more akin to MTM, but after they've had a chance to "tweak" your pattern a time or two, you are in essence getting low-budget bespoke.


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## qasimkhan (Sep 24, 2003)

As I understand bespoke, it has to do with having one's personal pattern not with the nature of the canvassing.

All of my bespoke suits are fused, and they have all been drycleaned several times during the 1-3 years that I have worn each of them. None of them show the slightest damage from dry cleaning.

In my situation, it's far more economical to have fused suits made at 265 USD a pop by a tailor in my city instead of paying thousands of pounds each for a floating canvas suit and having to travel to London as well. If my suits only last five years, that's fine. I'll donate them to goodwill and get another 265 USD suit made. At that rate it will only cost me 53 USD/year for each suit. But a 5400 USD suit from Savile Row that lasts for 20 years will cost 270 USD/year. In five years my body shape will have changed as well, so I'll always have suits that fit.

Other people have different priorities, so they should be free to choose a truly awesome Savile Row suit. But there are definitely cheaper options available to those of us who have different priorities.

Steve



Bonhamesque said:


> qasimkhan please don't call it bespoke because it definitely is not that.
> What's the point in buying a fused suit that will fall apart as soon as it's dry cleaned? You'll have to buy 3 a year (£600) so you may as well buy a £600 suit in the first place because it'll last you 4/5 years if you look after it.


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## ChriO (Feb 23, 2006)

If you are willing to try out a low price MTM outfit (you need to provide your own measures), take a look at this Nepal based company: https://www.baronboutique.com
See Wikipedia for general information about Nepal's economy

According to this thread on StyleForum New bespoke suit... the suits are canvassed and overall workmanship shall be good. The contact page lists a representative in the UK.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Allow me to clarify a couple of things here:

The UK has an awful record as far as dry cleaning goes. Perhaps it's different in the US, I don't know, but over here a fused suit will not last any length of time unless you take it to the absolute best dry cleaners.
Considering you're talking about suits that cost £200 or less it's unlikely that you'd spend £35 to get it dry cleaned.
When it comes to the meaning of bespoke, I'm sorry qasimkhan but you do not own any bespoke suits.
If they are fused then they are not bespoke.
Many companies abuse the word bespoke and call their suits bespoke when they are clearly MTM. Many members here can testify to that.
If you are still unsure about the difference between the two, read the English Cut site at or the Jasper Littman site at 

The main features of bespoke suits are:

1. Several fittings which MUST include a baste stage.
2. Made entirely by hand.
3. Fully canvassed.

A suit that fulfills all of the above criteria is bespoke in the true sense of the word and you will not be able to buy this for less than £1'000 (about $1800).
If someone sells you a suit that does not fulfill all of these criteria and calls it bespoke then they are lying, it's as simple as that.


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

For me my new motto is think global (fabrics) buy local (NYC). Saves time and hassel. 


Joe


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## qasimkhan (Sep 24, 2003)

Bonhamesque, I know perfectly well the difference between bespoke and MTM. I don't have to be pointed to a couple links to figure it out. I also know how my suits were made, while you do not. So you're being rather presumptive to say they are not bespoke and to say that I'm lying when I say that a fused suit is bespoke.

Steve



Bonhamesque said:


> Allow me to clarify a couple of things here:
> 
> The UK has an awful record as far as dry cleaning goes. Perhaps it's different in the US, I don't know, but over here a fused suit will not last any length of time unless you take it to the absolute best dry cleaners.
> Considering you're talking about suits that cost £200 or less it's unlikely that you'd spend £35 to get it dry cleaned.
> ...


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Steve,
You have not read my post properly.
I didn't say that you are lying.
I said that anyone who sells you a fused suit for $265 and calls it bespoke is lying. It simply isn't possible to make a fully bespoke suit properly for that money, and if it's fused then it isn't bespoke.
You say that you know the difference between bespoke and MTM but how can you if you believe these suits to be bespoke?
Clearly you do need to check those links.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

*What madness be this?*



Bonhamesque said:


> I said that anyone who sells you a fused suit for $265 and calls it bespoke is lying. if it's fused then it isn't bespoke.


Who died and made Thomas Mahon God? I thought Ricky at Jantzen was the Deity, at least according to the Church of Seventh-Day Phone Orders (Pastor David Bresch).

Bespoke has NOTHING to do with whether a suit is fused or not. The prime feature of bespoke is the creation of an individual paper pattern, incorporating measurements for a custom as opposed to adjusted fit. There are Savile Row tailors who (used to) make fused bespoke suits all the time.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

> if it's fused then it isn't bespoke.


While stitched-in padding is generally thought to be a measure of craftsmanship and thus is often associated with bespoke work, as RJman notes, a number of Savile Row firm were strong advocates for fusing including James & James and Wells of Mayfair. They believed it to provide better structural control, enhanced tailoring of hard-to-fashion lightweight fabrics, beneficial with overseas clients who could not have repeated fittings, and a means to offset the declining number of skilled craftsmen. Their products -- while fused -- were indeed bespoke.


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## assassino (Mar 29, 2006)

Medwards is correct (as usual) : a number of (truly bespoke) Savile Row tailors have - and some probably still do - experimented with fusibles. This includes some highly-respected firms (one of which is a NYC regular). See Richard Walker's History of Savile Row. 

The particular Row tailor that I have in mind has since abjured fusibles (following complaints). 

While I am not, in general, a fan of fused garments, I have seen some splendid results ; what I am wondering is whether some coats MUST be fused (i.e., the construction method makes it necessary)?

Finally, if an individual block is made for the customer and the process follows the time-honoured guidelines, I see no reson why a fused garment cannot be described as 'bespoke'.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

RJman said:


> Who died and made Thomas Mahon God? I thought Ricky at Jantzen was the Deity, at least according to the Church of Seventh-Day Phone Orders (Pastor David Bresch).
> 
> Bespoke has NOTHING to do with whether a suit is fused or not. The prime feature of bespoke is the creation of an individual paper pattern, incorporating measurements for a custom as opposed to adjusted fit. There are Savile Row tailors who (used to) make fused bespoke suits all the time.


Firstly no-one made Mahon God, especially not me - he's been hugely overrated on this forum. I linked to his site because it gives a clear definition of what 'bespoke' means for those who don't understand it.

Sure, every S Row tailor at some point has experimented with fused garments - just as they've all experimented with MTM at some point.
You can't keep charging £2,500 for a suit without at least investigating a cheaper alternative, but they would never charge £3,000 for a fully bespoke suit that contained fusing.

In any case, you 3 guys have picked up this topic at the end of a debate between me and Steve and have changed the subject.
I am saying that Steve's garments, being fused AND costing $265 cannot possibly be bespoke in the true sense.

I would also disagree with the statement above that "The prime feature of bespoke is the creation of an individual paper pattern"
The prime feature of bespoke is the baste fitting. You can make a paper pattern of anything you like, semi-bespoke, MTM, even laser-cut suits use a paper pattern and they're controlled by computers.
The baste fitting is the key feature because you only get it with fully bespoke suits. It isn't possible to half make an MTM garment, fit it on a client and then send it back to a factory to be finished off, and even if it was that still wouldn't qualify it as fully bespoke.
The whole process must be overseen by a cutter who knows his way round a basted garment.
Ideally a bespoke suit should have all these features combined but as I said before it's highly unlikely that you can acheive all that for $265.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

My thoughts about what is bespoke;

Made by people who can make the whole coat, vest and trousers from beginning to end, or apprentices help out (there can be a number of tailors making the parts variouse parts, but each can make the whole garment without help).

Almost always a personal pattern.

No fusing (except in unimportant areas can be ok).

Chest, lapel and collar are hand-pad-stitched (otherwise partially bespoke, or custom).

Sleeves being hand sewn on and shoulders being hand sewn together is usualy even better.

Good fit with two or more fittings (mostly the cutters job).

Fused garments today I would not call bespoke. Custom, but not bespoke. Back when fuse became available (60's-70's) I can understand real bespoke tailors trying it out, but not today. 

If people start calling everything bespoke- then the word means nothing-useless and meaningless. There has to be real boundaries to the word bespoke, or it becomes a lost word.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

WA said:


> Fused garments today I would not call bespoke. Custom, but not bespoke. Back when fuse became available (60's-70's) I can understand real bespoke tailors trying it out, but not today.
> 
> If people start calling everything bespoke- then the word means nothing-useless and meaningless. There has to be real boundaries to the word bespoke, or it becomes a lost word.


Precisely.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> The prime feature of bespoke is the baste fitting.


Fallan & Harvey have been my tailor for decades. Inasmuch as my weight and stature haven't changed much in quite some time, I have not had -- nor needed -- a baste fitting in probably ten years. Trust me, each and everyone one of these suits is bespoke.

None of this is intended to respond to the initial enquiry about whether the company referenced in the first posting is reputable and what a customer might expect in terms of the type and quality of its product.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Well of course, that goes without saying. If someone has had your measurements for years then obviously you won't need a baste but they wouldn't dream of making your very first suit without one - especially Ian Fallen.
We're talking about buying suits for the first time. That's why this thread was initially started.


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## assassino (Mar 29, 2006)

Fallan & Harvey : they're the ones !


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## dwyer (Mar 11, 2006)

I just saw assassino being banned. What did he do wrong?


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## Trommel (Sep 27, 2006)

dwyer said:


> I just saw assassino being banned. What did he do wrong?


A pity, his posts were always entertaining.


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

I posted a reply this morning 'how important is fully canvassed suit construction' , it may be relevent to this discussion.
When I started with my business I decided to set my stall out for clients that was different from the run of the mill tailors.
The first thing was to do the whole job personally, from cutting fully through to finish. It just never did, and still does not sit easy with me to give work out to even the smallest 'production line' of 5 or 6 people.
The second was to be flexible, give the customer what they want, not my idea, or anyone else's idea of bespoke or MTM.
I have and still do, make from scratch a draft pattern from clients measures, give the necessary fittings required, make, finish, press and deliver every garment personally.
Some of the jackets I have made have been a fused front, every other part of the jacket, where possible, has been underbasted, outbasted, edge stitched, felled, drawn, hand buttonholes etc etc by hand. The only place not done by hand is padding the lapels, there is no canvas on them with fusing. Would this be MTM because of missing 1 hours labour to pad the lapels? or is it bespoke?
www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

des merrion said:


> Some of the jackets I have made have been a fused front, every other part of the jacket, where possible, has been underbasted, outbasted, edge stitched, felled, drawn, hand buttonholes etc etc by hand. The only place not done by hand is padding the lapels, there is no canvas on them with fusing. Would this be MTM because of missing 1 hours labour to pad the lapels? or is it bespoke?


I would call that bespoke or custom jacket, but not tailoring, because there is no pad-stitching in it.

If you pad-stitched the collar and fused the front and lapel I would call that partial bespoke/custom tailoring.

The reason why is the history. At one time all sewing was done by hand sewing. Patterns were hand made. Some people did fittings. When some people started doing pad-stitching they were called tailors, while the others were not called tailors. This is hundreds of years before the sewing machine was invented.

A custom/bespoke garment, well made, can be tops, even if it is not tailored.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

WA said:


> I would call that bespoke or custom jacket, but not tailoring, because there is no pad-stitching in it.
> 
> ...
> 
> A custom/bespoke garment, well made, can be tops, even if it is not tailored.


Sorry, but this is a distinction that I completely fail to grasp.


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

You can get a shirt made by Alex Kabbaz with a fused collar. I think I would still call it a bespoke shirt. There is no pad stitching in a shirt. You can get a bespoke hat and it will not have pad stitching in it either. Apparently someone over at London Lounge got to inspect a coat made for the Duke of Windsor and the finely detailed handwork in it is something unheard of these days. Does that make all modern coats made-to-measure?

These attempts at defining 'bespoke' in terms of what tailoring methods are employed will always have profound limitations.


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## Hennessy (Oct 9, 2006)

Umm, Bonhamesque, I'm not sure how to break this to you...but Mr Mahon doesn't do a baste fitting. Check his website regarding his "rock of eye" approach. I sure wish that meant I could buy one of his suits for 265 pounds...


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Concordia said:


> Sorry, but this is a distinction that I completely fail to grasp.


Bespoke/custom coat would be without padstitches.

Bespoke/custom tailored coat would be with padstitches.

Sort of like not every painting is an impressionist. Some paintings are cubicnist. Some are realist, etc. But, they are all paintings.

Tailoring is a certain type of coat created by a tailor useing padstitches. You could have a custom ski coat made by a tailor with no padstitches, so, not a tailored coat, but an excellent custom ski coat. Manufactured with padstitching- not tailored either.

Once in awhile you hear a phrase like- tailors and pants makers, tailors and vest makers, shirt makers, hat makers, cobblers, tie makers. The tailor is the a coat maker, but not just any coat maker. Anyway, I was taught "no padstitching, no tailoring".


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## ice (Sep 2, 2005)

*What is bespoke?*

There is a lot of hair splitting going on here.

Bespoke clothing is measured directly from the customer, created for that customer exclusively, and fitted exactly to the customer.

That's it. Nothing to do with canvas, button holes, or fabric.


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## mrchapel (Jun 21, 2006)

WA said:


> Bespoke/custom coat would be without padstitches.
> 
> Bespoke/custom tailored coat would be with padstitches.
> 
> ...




I am very sorry sir, but I feel you are quite wrong. Shall we consult the definition of tailor and tailoring? Via our friends at Merriam-Webster:



https://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tailor said:


> _tailor:_
> a person whose occupation is making or altering outer garments





https://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tailoring said:


> _tailoring:_
> *1 a* *:* the business or occupation of a tailor *b* *:* the work or workmanship of a tailor
> *2* *:* the making or adapting of something to suit a particular purpose


There is no mention of a tailored garment requiring padstitching. This is just naive thinking.

As for bespoke. Bespoke is, very simply put, the creation of a custom pattern. A bespoke garment does not necessarily have to require a full canvas, though the most expensive bespoke garments will have this. Fusing has come a long way and in some instances, serves its purpose.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

ice said:


> There is a lot of hair splitting going on here.
> 
> Bespoke clothing is measured directly from the customer, created for that customer exclusively, and fitted exactly to the customer.
> 
> That's it. Nothing to do with canvas, button holes, or fabric.


ICE you bring up a good point- 'created for that customer exclusively'.

So ICE, what do you think of tailors that draw a rough pattern on the cloth and then from the first fitting make part of a personal pattern for that customer (body), and from the second fitting the rest of the personal pattern (sleeves & collar)? No personal pattern at the beginning.

Personal pattern at the beginning might be splitting hairs at guessing, which is why there are fittings, which sometimes include drastic corrections. So, sometimes personal patterns at the beginning mean nothing.

And then there are the customers that say they want a "Hacking Coat". So the tailor cuts out a hacking coat. And then at the fitting the customer looks at the coat and say "Thats not a hacking coat. A hacking coat is blah, blah, blah". In the US the customer is always right, right? If the tailor followed the personal pattern too closely then he may not be able to do blah, blah, blah, and is now out some money, like perhaps $1,000 per yard, because he ruined some fine cloth. My personal thoughts about "personal patterns to be bespoke" is blah, blah, blah. The fittings is the timeand place to decide. After that a personal pattern comes in very handy for that customer for later garments, but not necessary.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

mrchapel said:


> I am very sorry sir, but I feel you are quite wrong. Shall we consult the definition of tailor and tailoring? Via our friends at Merriam-Webster:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by https://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tailor
> ...


So, if your mother nitts you a sweater for an outer garment for spring or fall, or even winter- your mother would be a tailor?

A little editing.

Another way to look at it LL says that personal pattern is bespoke and the dictionary above says... Lets say Z learns how to hem t-shirts at a factory, then put on collars, sees a pattern and ask how to make them and learns. Then Mr. Z moves to some hot climate town where a t-shirt is all you need for outer wear and opens his bespoke tailors shop and he calls it 'Z the Bespoke Tailor'. Draws patterns for each customer, cuts and sew up each t-shirt in one hour. And all he knows is how to make is t-shirts. Doesn't know how to fit, but he is a genuine bespoke tailor.

Your right the word tailor and bespoke/custom do get used for a lot of different things. And even get put together for many different things. More so now than ever before. Indeed the orgins of word (tailor) are almost completely all gone. The word is so bland now that it almost means nothing, except excellence in anything. In the old days an apprentise would not meet the requirements of the word tailor (because he didn't know enough), when he became a journyman then he is a real tailor. The word tailor has indeed fallen. But there are still a few people who still use the word as before it fell.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Hennessy said:


> Umm, Bonhamesque, I'm not sure how to break this to you...but Mr Mahon doesn't do a baste fitting. Check his website regarding his "rock of eye" approach. I sure wish that meant I could buy one of his suits for 265 pounds...


Uummmm... then what the hell are these things??


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## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

WA said:


> So, if your mother nitts you a sweater for an outer garment for spring or fall, or even winter- your mother would be a tailor?


Yes, absolutely. She knits you a fine cashmere sweater tailored to your exact measurements. A fine mother and seamstress she would be. You should be grateful to her.:icon_smile:

Many bespoke suits and shirts do involve the work of women who earn extra money by doing some tailoring for bespoke tailors. Some of these work from home as well. The hand sewing of many Italian firms relies heavily on the artisanal skills handed down from mother to daughter.


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## Hennessy (Oct 9, 2006)

Bonhamesque said:


> Uummmm... then what the hell are these things??


Great link, but I wish you'd read the page instead of just glancing at the pretty pictures. To wit:

"Anderson & Sheppard , myself and a few other A&S expats miss out this stage altogether. We go straight to a forward (second) fitting."

Translation: no baste fitting. The customer isn't needed until a later stage in the construction of the suit. But he's still a custom tailor because he makes a separate pattern from scratch for each and every customer. Ice's definition makes a lot more sense than yours does.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Sator said:


> Many bespoke suits and shirts do involve the work of women who earn extra money by doing some tailoring for bespoke tailors. Some of these work from home as well. The hand sewing of many Italian firms relies heavily on the artisanal skills handed down from mother to daughter.


Many tailors have used their wifes and daughters to do some of the sewing, but it does not mean those that do some of the extra sewing are tailors. If you ask these women in Italy if they are tailors most if not all will probably say no.

If you go ask professors in Universities who teach sewing will any of them say they are a tailor? Will any of them say any of their students are tailors? In most cases with these Ph.D's you will say no. Even though some of their students can sew increditble garments of many kinds.

I suppose those in the factory world have swiped the word tailor to make their products seem better than what they are. Sorta like back in the 60's and early 70's you could fine on some of the lowest price jackets made of the cheapest cloth and coat construction methods hand made button holes. Those hand made button holes did make the jacket better, did they? They just made the jackets seem better than they are.

My personal thoughts is a tailor can take measerments, make a pattern, do fittings, pressings and sew the whole garments using the tailoring methods.

This recent belief of "Oh! You can sew! You are a tailor!" is just simply incorrect. Tailoring is a certain type of art. No any kind of sewing art.

The purpose of words is to seperate this from that. The people who are in charge of the dictionaries are failing. In the past people read between the lines. Today there are not enough people capable to read between the lines of tailor and tailoring.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Hennessy said:


> Great link, but I wish you'd read the page instead of just glancing at the pretty pictures. To wit:
> 
> "Anderson & Sheppard , myself and a few other A&S expats miss out this stage altogether. We go straight to a forward (second) fitting."
> 
> Translation: no baste fitting. The customer isn't needed until a later stage in the construction of the suit. But he's still a custom tailor because he makes a separate pattern from scratch for each and every customer. Ice's definition makes a lot more sense than yours does.


Oh dear Hennessy, you really are out of your depth old chap.
Why are you talking about something you know nothing about?

Read the page again, Mahon misses out the first stage but still has a forward fitting and often a fin bar fin fitting. These are also 'baste' stages. i.e. the garment is still UNFINISHED!
It is only half made. These stages are unique to bespoke tailors. You will NOT find them in any kind of factory made garment.
Mahon is a fully bespoke tailor - not a 'custom' tailor. Most people on Savile Row offer FULLY BESPOKE suits and Mahon's site is just one example of how they're made.

"There is a lot of hair splitting going on here." Ice

I totally agree Ice and as so often happens on this site I'm having to return people to my original point which is that you cannot buy a fully bespoke suit for $265 - not unless you're buying it from a country where the average daily pay is $2.
If you go to S Row and you're unsure of whether the garment you're buying is bespoke or MTM ask the tailor whether it includes a half-made fitting stage. If it doesn't I can virtually guarantee you it is not bespoke. (Unless of course it's your tenth bespoke suit with that tailor in which case you won't need baste fittings anymore) -that bit is for the pedants.


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## Wakefield (Oct 12, 2006)

Bonhamesque

This is my first post and I hope I don't appear to be trying to cause an argument - that is definitely not my intention. Overall I agree with what you are saying an do not want the following comments to be misinterpreted.

However, I just wanted to comment on your view that:

"These are also 'baste' stages. i.e. the garment is still UNFINISHED!
It is only half made. These stages are unique to bespoke tailors. You will NOT find them in any kind of factory made garment."

This is not the case in certain areas of the north of the Uk.

It is quite a common practice among some tailors to supply a suit which is made in a factory but presented back to the tailor at various stages for fittings. Basically the process is as follows:

Either the tailor cuts the cloth or sends it to the factory to be cut (I have experienced it done both ways).

The factory takes the garment to a basted stage. Usually (again, in my experience) this would include a skeleton coat with one arm tacked into position. Pockets would be in, canvas or fusing completed but no other finishing. Trousers would be almost complete unless requested otherwise.

After adjustments by the tailor this would be returned to the factory for further work. This could be to completion but, depending on the tailor and such things as how many suits he had made for you, could be returned in at various stages of completeness for subsequent fittings.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Wakefield, before you comment on a thread you need to read the entire thing rather than just pick up on the last thing that's been said.
If you read what I've written at the top of this page you will see this:

"The baste fitting is the key feature because you only get it with fully bespoke suits. It isn't possible to half make an MTM garment, fit it on a client and then send it back to a factory to be finished off, and even if it was that still wouldn't qualify it as fully bespoke."

I am aware that this happens in some parts of the world but in no way is that a fully bespoke garment.
That is the point I'm making here.

Before anyone else comments on my posts can they please please a) read the entire thing and b) stick to the point which is that you cannot buy a fully bespoke suit for $265!!


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## Noblemon (Dec 26, 2006)

Edouard said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I know absolutely nothing about bespoke suits so would appreciate your sartorially more knowledgeable advice. I found this "budget" bespoke tailoring house, King and Allen, which apparently is not based in Hong Kong but in Surrey yet will produce a bespoke suit for you in 6 weeks, for £200-300 (£279 for a black tie ensemble for example).
> Their website (with many examples of their work):
> ...


I'll tell you what the catch is - a poor quality suit that doesn't fit.

Decided to give them a go back in September. Went down to the (grotty and badly lit) offices in Surbiton to be measured by one of the founders himself (can't remember which one). Ordered a 2 button navy in their deluxe range (£299). Should have been alerted by the fact that he tried to talk me in to having non-working buttons on the cuff and no vents in the jacket but decided to see it through.

To cut a long story short the next few months involved a further 6 visits (Surbiton + City venues) for alterations to the jacket (shape, construction, fit, quality issues). So thats time off work, travel expenses and hassle and not once did they contact me after an appointment to tell me the jacket was ready - i rang them each time.

What was even worse that each time they pretended they couldn't see the problem until i pointed it out. As far as they were concerned it was perfect each time. Pure dishonesty as far as im concerned

Finally, after the 6th visit (last week) i took the suit on the basis that i'd had enough aggravation and it was a lesson learnt. Told them straight that i had been in the market for 5 suits but they could forget it now. The end result is a suit that feels like its been forced to fit me rather than bespoke and not ONE offer of a discount or other goodwill gesture.

AVOID.


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## drrobert (Sep 24, 2006)

*Lesson for all of us here*

The biggest lesson to learned here, which has been pointed out in many posts, is that you cannot get something for nothing. All of us would like to buy an Enzo Ferrari for $25,000, but the car sold for between $400,000 to $600,000 to the lucky 400 who could buy one(Eric Clapton being one of those fortunate few). You cannot buy a world class Ferrari for that paltry sum of money. Furthermore, we would all like to go to Thomas Mahon, Chris Despos, or Des Merrion and say:" here is $1,000 make me one of your best bespoke suits ever". It just isn't going to happen. In this world there is a frequent, but not always, consistent correlation between cost and quality which is based on the simple economic truth that in most instances better things cost more money. In my profession, dentistry, there are overseas labs that make dental crowns for $30 yet why do I pay over $200 for exceptional quality crowns when I could just spend $30 and have a greater profit of $170. The simple answer is those $30 crowns look like garbage and I do not wish to subject my valuable patients to inferior goods. To the young man who thought he could get a bespoke suit for such a miniscule amount, I too would like to pay that and get Mahon, Despos, or Merrion quality for that price but it cannot be done. You have to decide do I want more suits of lesser quality or less suits of greater quality. For me ,after having painfully learned this lesson in my early youth, I would rather have quality than quantity because in many instances, as Alex K pointed out recently with regard to bespoke shirts, it may be cheaper in the long run to own high quality garments. drrobert


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## Noblemon (Dec 26, 2006)

I didn't expect bespoke quality at that price - whatever their claims. However, i did expect superior fit compared to RTW, at least as good fabric and construction. Basically a good MTM garment that was a step up from one off the rack. i don't think that the price made this unrealistic. The fact that the suit failed to match any of those expectations was the biggest disappointment.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

assassino said:


> Medwards is correct (as usual) : a number of (truly bespoke) Savile Row tailors have - and some probably still do - experimented with fusibles. This includes some highly-respected firms (one of which is a NYC regular). See Richard Walker's History of Savile Row.
> 
> The particular Row tailor that I have in mind has since abjured fusibles (following complaints).
> 
> ...


thats it right there fuseing is not not a time honored guideline. besides there is no basted fitting. thus, its not bespoke.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

WA said:


> My thoughts about what is bespoke;
> 
> Made by people who can make the whole coat, vest and trousers from beginning to end, or apprentices help out (there can be a number of tailors making the parts variouse parts, but each can make the whole garment without help).
> 
> ...


please please please, custom is by definition exactly the same as bespoke. 
custom is an american word, bespoke is english. 
like truck and lorry, or washroom and loo, or cookie and biscuit.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> Oh dear Hennessy, you really are out of your depth old chap.
> Why are you talking about something you know nothing about?
> 
> Read the page again, Mahon misses out the first stage but still has a forward fitting and often a fin bar fin fitting. These are also 'baste' stages. i.e. the garment is still UNFINISHED!
> ...


again ,PLEASE. if mahon was doing the very same thing here in the states he would be called a custom tailor. dont confuse mtm with custom.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Thankyou a tailor and dr robert for reiterating what I've been trying to say from the beginning of this thread.

P.s. I did try to warn them Noblemon.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

a tailor said:


> please please please, custom is by definition exactly the same as bespoke.
> custom is an american word, bespoke is english.
> like truck and lorry, or washroom and loo, or cookie and biscuit.


This is an old thread- Yes custom and bespoke are the exact same. My granddad called pad-stitches tailor-stitches, because those stitches divided the sewing world from tailor and non-tailors when sewers started doing pad-stitches- so no pad-stitching = no tailoring.

Into days world the word -tailor- has been corrupted to mean anything including tailored motor bike, funiture, yatch, etc. to equate custom or bespoke. While that is fine outside the clotheing world I don't like it dumbed down in the clotheing world. Fuse certainly does not replace pad-stitching and then call it tailored- it is merely customed/bespoked. I can make custome dress' for women- that does not make it tailored. So when somebody mentions tailored coats/jackets it had better have the pad-stitches in it to be the real thing. If we lose the word 'tailor' to mean anything in the clotheing world, then we have lost a word that had purpose and meaning, which told us something about a jacket/coat. Custom/bespoke + tailored means the jacket/coat is made for certain person (commisioned) with the pad-stitching.


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## neyus (Jan 12, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> The main features of bespoke suits are:
> 
> 1. Several fittings which MUST include a baste stage.
> 2. Made entirely by hand.
> 3. Fully canvassed.


I would disagree with 2. or 3. While it would be preferred that a suit is made entirely by hand or fully canvassed, it is not a prerequisite for a bespoke garment.


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## Noblemon (Dec 26, 2006)

Bonhamesque - wish i'd joined this forum earlier and seen your post! Still, lesson learned etc


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## morgan (Sep 24, 2005)

*A pity*

Sorry to hear about your poor experience noblemon but I am interested to see you were measured in Surbiton. Did you ever visit John Carr, Bespoke Tailor on the high street?


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

neyus said:


> I would disagree with 2. or 3. While it would be preferred that a suit is made entirely by hand or fully canvassed, it is not a prerequisite for a bespoke garment.


Yes it is.
If you're talking about bespoke in the true Savile Row sense of the word then both of these are important, especially point 3. You can't fuse a garment and then call it bespoke, that's a lie.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

for under 300 quid including the material .. its not gonna be bespoke.

it will be a suit altered from a pre-cut 'cookie cutter' block then glued.

bespoke is a tailor taking a lot of measurements , creating individual paper patterns unique to the customer then cutting by hand the cloth.

full canvassing and hand stitching throughout after fittings where the garment is refined to mould the customers body.

for the price mentioned a premade suit will be lifted off a rack that roughly matches the measurements you provide and things will be taken in or out.

in the UK , outside mayfair , you can get a fully bespoke suit for £600 upwards depending on material. it will be the 'works' too!


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

in the UK , outside mayfair , you can get a fully bespoke suit for £600 upwards depending on material. it will be the 'works' too![/quote]

Full bespoke. Where?

www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Yes wouldn't it be one of those MTM-plus tailors, like one of the Cypriot Georges Curator reviewed?


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Yes that does seem a bit cheap, even without Mayfair overheads.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

By the way Henry, did you ever get your MTM suit?


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

No - I've been holding fire for a while, as I'm still a student for until August.

I've been going down the road of buying decent RTW suits and having them tailored. There's a decent place in Moorgate which have been very good so far.

I bought a beautiful blue double breasted G&H with pinstripes today in Bicester - I'm wearing it at the moment. Despite being alone in the house. Sitting at the computer. On Ask Andy. How cool am I?

When I do go MTM I'm leaning towards Benson and Clegg. Not only is competitively priced - £610 to start - but their bespoke operation is apparently very decent, so I was thinking that since it's a pretty small place, the person taking my measurements might be the bespoke cutter / tailor (whichever is the correct term!).

Seeing as all decent MTM seems to be Wensum, a low price and decent measurer seems the only variable!


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

des merrion said:


> in the UK , outside mayfair , you can get a fully bespoke suit for £600 upwards depending on material. it will be the 'works' too!


Full bespoke. Where?

www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com[/quote]

i can give you two tailors off the top of my head , both dont fuse any garments , all hand stitched with a skeleton baste fitting and as many adjustments as you like , suits with their material start at £550 upwards for a two piece ... for a decent superfine worsted material about £750 . (over a thousand bucks to 1400 with the exchange rate )

georgethreadneedleman in south london and peter harland in liverpool (harland actually finnishes garments for savile row).

great value for money , you will find !

https://www.threadneedlemantailors.co.uk/


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Henry said:


> No - I've been holding fire for a while, as I'm still a student for until August.
> 
> I've been going down the road of buying decent RTW suits and having them tailored. There's a decent place in Moorgate which have been very good so far.
> 
> ...


I'll let someone else comment on the fact that you're alone with your suit on and online... I'm sure there's a joke about left-handed clothing web sites in there somewhere.....?

You're doing the right thing in trusting the Row to make your MTM suit. As I've said elsewhere on this forum, it makes sense to me. I'd also agree that Wensum is definitely the best option for MTM, especially in the £600 - £1200 price bracket.
The only other criteria I'd consider, just to be ultra-fussy, is the fabric that you get for £610.
Would that be a Super 100 or similar?
I might also be curious as to how much Wensum B&C actually do. Only because there are some bespoke firms (not necessarily B&C) that measure for MTM through gritted teeth, viewing it as a means to an end - some of the snobbier cutters even refuse to measure for MTM, whilst other bespoke firms embrace Wensum as a good introduction to the Row.
These firms tend to do a lot more business with Wensum and therefore become more proficient at understanding how their tailors work.
This in turn should provide you with a better fitting suit.
Anyway I'd love to hear how you get on with B&C.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

english_gent said:


> Full bespoke. Where?
> 
> www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com


i can give you two tailors off the top of my head , both dont fuse any garments , all hand stitched with a skeleton baste fitting and as many adjustments as you like , suits with their material start at £550 upwards for a two piece ... for a decent superfine worsted material about £750 . (over a thousand bucks to 1400 with the exchange rate )

georgethreadneedleman in south london and peter harland in liverpool (harland actually finnishes garments for savile row).

great value for money , you will find !

https://www.threadneedlemantailors.co.uk/[/quote]

EG,

Can you tell us more about georgethreadneedleman?

I think I'm the first one who mentioned his website on AAAC. However, when I travelled all the way to see him, I was rather disappionted to say the least. There's very little resemblance between his stuff in the flesh and in pictures.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

so what is he taking pics of then ??

i've never used him , being other side of the country but he has been mentioned and his customers are happy.

plus when i had a discussion with him the guy was more than happy to discuss interfacing , george is one on my list im contemplating visiting for my next 'whistle'.

the liverpool dude too . aparently one of his customers mentioned on another site that harland is doing suits in scabal mohair for about a grand , i feel i will be filling my boots anytime soon.

the threadneedleman has a myspace profile with more of his pics and of course customers leaving him comments.

https://www.myspace.com/threadneedleman


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

To my untrained eye, his stuff is all about machine made. Perhaps you should pay him a visit and write a review as you seem to be more of an expert than me.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

harrybee said:


> To my untrained eye, his stuff is all about machine made. Perhaps you should pay him a visit and write a review as you seem to be more of an expert than me.


i'm far from being an expert ! :icon_smile_wink:

like most people i have to learn lessons the hard way.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

I don't know much about him but by reading the myspace page I drew the following conclusions:

1. His suits don't look clinical enough to be machine made, there are also style features that would not normally be possible in an MTM factory e.g. overlapping flap pockets.
2. He sees himself as a sort of working class hero / cockney geezer. You may or may not care about this.
3. He doesn't promote himself as a maker of traditional English suits. All the photos are of unusual and wacky suits
4. He hasn't invested a lot of money in his web site or myspace page. Again this may or may not mean anything to you.
5. The suits do not appear to be finished as cleanly or constructed as well as a S Row bespoke suit.
My guess is that they are hand cut and hand made but the coatmakers are quite cheap ones. This would explain the very low price for bespoke.
6. In his interview he states that his company was set up "to make Mod fashionable suits" so if you liked Quadrophenia you know where to go.

Just my initial observations.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

Bonhamesque said:


> I don't know much about him but by reading the myspace page I drew the following conclusions:
> 
> 1. His suits don't look clinical enough to be machine made, there are also style features that would not normally be possible in an MTM factory e.g. overlapping flap pockets.
> 2. He sees himself as a sort of working class hero / cockney geezer. You may or may not care about this.
> ...


a list of very unusually scathing observations there ... george is very honest , im sorry if he has offended your 'ivory tower' asperations for a tailor.
he's not 'mayfair' only mayfair is mayfair , as you can see from the suits on his clients a lot of his clients are working class mods , skinheads etc. therefore he is showing off suit features etc to show he is open to making unusual requests that clents may have a hard time getting from mainstream tailors.

for instance , if a person wanted 'mod refinements ' on a suit such as step bottoms , tunnel belt loops , 2inch lapels etc ... the majority of tailors wouldnt have a clue and/or be willing to do those things. george is showing that he will cater for 'youth culture' dress codes.

believe it or not , some people want something a little different from the normal understated classic english suit ... such as band members who are resurecting our past heritage , revivalist youth cult aficianados etc .

and george is a traditionalist , he's probably not all that internet savvy or inclined (someone else takes care of his myspace profile for instance) and the vast majority of his business is personal recomendations and repeat customers. selling himself on the internet is not a priority and therefore has the 'vaguest presence')

oh btw , if you want savile row , pay 2 and a half to three grand for a suit , dont fall into the trap of comparing all other tailors to savile row's finest and expect that level of cutting and finnishing to a guy who is a quarter/third of the price . be realistic.

hope this helps .... EG !


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## scaramanga (Dec 10, 2006)

english_gent said:


> a list of very unusually scathing observations there ... george is very honest , im sorry if he has offended your 'ivory tower' asperations for a tailor.
> he's not 'mayfair' only mayfair is mayfair , as you can see from the suits on his clients a lot of his clients are working class mods , skinheads etc. therefore he is showing off suit features etc to show he is open to making unusual requests that clents may have a hard time getting from mainstream tailors.
> 
> for instance , if a person wanted 'mod refinements ' on a suit such as step bottoms , tunnel belt loops , 2inch lapels etc ... the majority of tailors wouldnt have a clue and/or be willing to do those things. george is showing that he will cater for 'youth culture' dress codes.
> ...


Have you met Artisan Fran?

Artisan Fan:Kiton::English Gent:George


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

scaramanga said:


> Have you met Artisan Fran?
> 
> Artisan Fan:Kiton::English Gent:George


pardon??


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough EG.
The reason I listed my observations in that way is because whenever someone new comes on to this site looking for less expensive bespoke/MTM/etc. someone always recommends George, which is no bad thing but they never seem to mention the fact that he's a Mod tailor.
As Harrybee said, he went all that way based on someone on this site recommending George and was disappointed.
I think it's only fair to point out to anyone looking for cheaper bespoke/MTM that for £500 you get what you pay for construction and finish wise.
To me this finish doesn't look as good as many MTM suits I've seen at the same price.
Perhaps people need to be clearer when they make recommendations.
I don't have 'Ivory tower' aspirations for tailors, I'm merely pointing out my observations from his web sites which as I say may or may not bother anyone reading them. They don't particularly bother me but I think that some AA members might be surprised if they went to see him.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Just to be clear, there are at least 4 different Greek Cypriot tailors named George who run their own off-Row shops. That might account for the proliferation of Georges here.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

Bonhamesque said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough EG.
> The reason I listed my observations in that way is because whenever someone new comes on to this site looking for less expensive bespoke/MTM/etc. someone always recommends George, which is no bad thing but they never seem to mention the fact that he's a Mod tailor.
> As Harrybee said, he went all that way based on someone on this site recommending George and was disappointed.
> I think it's only fair to point out to anyone looking for cheaper bespoke/MTM that for £500 you get what you pay for construction and finish wise.
> ...


he's not just a mod tailor , most of his business is making 'business suits' for city types. if he only made 60s revivalist clothing he'd close down.

but he's one of the few tailors who is 'mod friendly' so he courts that side of the market.

lets not forget , threadneedleman started his trade when there was a decent youth culture about and 'kids' were wearing suits 'en mass' , i bet he did very well making those clothes for a large and eager market 3 and 4 decades ago.

and its a tradition he has maintained for a much smaller revivalist market. mod friendly tailors are rare and priceless. operating in a climate where youth culture is 'daringly downmarket' where the kids wear supermarket clothes banged out in china.

fair play to the fella ! kids today suck BIG TIME .


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

I used to use a tailor called Toby Norman in Whetstone North London for a couple of pairs of trousers.

Toby was somewhere in between the price range of the Cypriot tailors, and Mayfair.

Definitely not a mod tailor, although he was happy to accommodate my Mod details into the two pairs of trousers he made me. 

From what I remember of the suits and jackets in the shop, his finishing and construction seemed very good.

That was ten years ago and the trousers are still going strong, so his quality is also very good. 

I assume he's still in business, hope this may be of some help.


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## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

Trilby said:


> Just to be clear, there are at least 4 different Greek Cypriot tailors named George who run their own off-Row shops. That might account for the proliferation of Georges here.


I'd like to hear more details about the 4 Georges.

Anyone?


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## morgan (Sep 24, 2005)

*Hmm*

Henry wrote:

_When I do go MTM I'm leaning towards Benson and Clegg._

The jackets are fused and made overseas according to the chat I've had with them.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Whilst we're on the subject of off-row tailors again, does anyone know anything about Sherlock at 25 Kingly Street?
I know that he hand cuts and stitches everything himself, and that he looks like he's been electrocuted, but does anyone know anymore?
A tailor I know says his cut is excellent despite the fact that he uses templates.


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

Could we try to define the term off Row, to me an artisan that was fully trained and built up a good reputation in Savile Row, becomes off Row if he then moves out of Mayfair.

Or maybe someone who's in the same league as Savile Row; but is based in the City or Soho, could be termed off Row.

But some posters seem to be suggesting that any London tailor outside of Mayfair is off Row.

Just curious as to how people define, off Row.


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

dopey said:


> Would a SR tailor really refuse to put these mod details on a suit if the customer insisted .................... I am fairly sure that if I said that I liked going to mod clubs and needed a mod-style suit but really wanted to stay with their superlative fit and quality they would happily make what I wanted.
> 
> Price is another matter entirely.


I would think John Davis of Tobias-Davis would make a Mod suit, or atleaste something between his house style and a Mod suit.

I'd hazard a guess that Alan Bennett of Davies and Sons would do the same, these tailors were Mods themselves back in the day.

Other tailors might see things very diferently.


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## poncho (Jan 2, 2007)

*William Yu or Y William Yu?*



JLibourel said:


> A few thoughts here:
> 
> Do any good Hong Kong tailors tour Britain? The consensus seems to be that the only top-flight HK tailor that does tours is W.W. Chan, and I think they limit their tours to the USA. A-Man Hing Cheong and H. Baroman do not do tours, and I think this is also true of some less well known but well-respected tailors like William Yu and Gordon Yao.


Sorry to bring up a point in a post half a year old, but are you referring to William Yu whose shop is in the Peninsula, or Y William Yu whose shop is on Mody road and also has a shop in midtown Manhattan ?


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

outrigger said:


> Could we try to define the term off Row, to me an artisan that was fully trained and built up a good reputation in Savile Row, becomes off Row if he then moves out of Mayfair.
> 
> Or maybe someone who's in the same league as Savile Row; but is based in the City or Soho, could be termed off Row.
> 
> ...


Personally I would define 'off Row' as meaning someone in the same league as a S Row tailor but not on the actual street, i.e. in the surrounding area.

If they're not comparable to a S Row tailor then they're simply a London tailor.


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

I am very happy with the 3 suits, 5 odd jackets (some SB, some DB, some 1 button, some 3 button etc) and odd trousers made for me by George Threadneedleman. He does not force a mod cut/style. For £500 or so a suit... and he is more than happy to explain his craft.


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