# Which way should Regimental stripes go



## ButchHusy (Dec 2, 2005)

I know this may be an issue of debate, but which way should the stripes on a Regimental tie go? I've seen them go down and to the right and down and to the left.


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## PITAronin (Nov 30, 2004)

My sense from prior discussions is that you first need to ask yourself whether you're OK wearing the stripes of a regiment you may not have any linkage to, and then - assuming you have no qualms - deciding whetehr your preference on directionality of the stripes leans more toward the British or the American convention.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Down to the right= British
Down to the left= American (I believe this was a Brooks Brothers contribution, to fashion, no?)


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## Sweetness (Aug 25, 2005)

tripreed said:


> Down to the right= British
> Down to the left= American (I believe this was a Brooks Brothers contribution, to fashion, no?)


Or easier to understand is hand on heart (like doing the pledge) is British, and unsheathing a sword with your right hand is American.


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## FerrisBueller (Sep 23, 2006)

tripreed said:


> Down to the right= British
> Down to the left= American (I believe this was a Brooks Brothers contribution, to fashion, no?)


I agree.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

tripreed said:


> Down to the right= British
> Down to the left= American (I believe this was a Brooks Brothers contribution, to fashion, no?)





Sweetness said:


> Or easier to understand is hand on heart (like doing the pledge) is British, and unsheathing a sword with your right hand is American.


BB did this to avoid accidentaly matching the stipes of a regimet, school or another institution - and I guess in certain circles that may be considered as misrepresenting oneself. When stripes go the other way, there is no issue.

An easy way to remember the rule is; British stripes guide your right hand to the heart, American stripes to the pocket.

Anyway, British stripes just look better - they direction matches the overlaps of "left over right" of suits and shirts and with chect pocket/pocket square contributes to the flow of the outfit from left shoulder towards right hip.


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## About Town (Nov 17, 2004)

Had the same question at home last night when the significant other
pointed out that Anderson Cooper was wearing the British way.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the American stripes look much better. I refuse to wear British style regimental ties.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

tripreed said:


> Down to the right= British
> Down to the left= American (I believe this was a Brooks Brothers contribution, to fashion, no?)


I thought it was the other way around? As in, American (\), British (/); the reasoning being that British stripes, for whatever reason, descend from the heart. Am I wrong?


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## DougNZ (Aug 31, 2005)

A matter of interpretation, wnh; you are all saying the same thing, just different view points. Looking at someone wearing a British regimental tie, the stripes fall top right to bottom left, that is, in bend sinister.

However, it should be made clear that some British regimental ties fall to bottom right, that is bendwise.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

wnh said:


> I thought it was the other way around? As in, American (\), British (/); the reasoning being that British stripes, for whatever reason, descend from the heart. Am I wrong?


No, you are correct, I was referring to it from the wearer's perspective, not the viewer's.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

tripreed said:


> No, you are correct, I was referring to it from the wearer's perspective, not the viewer's.


Ah. Perhaps I've been reading these boards too long; my entire perspective on clothing is based at looking at someone else rather than down at myself.


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*Funny thing is ...*

that the Benson & Clegg site in its military ties section has ties with stripes going both ways.

So there.

Andrey


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

ButchHusy said:


> I know this may be an issue of debate, but which way should the stripes on a Regimental tie go? I've seen them go down and to the right and down and to the left.


Depends on the regiment


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## Squeaky (Aug 16, 2006)

From Sam Hober at 


8) Please let us know if you have a preference for the direction that your stripes have.
​ Which has the stripes starting from the high left and going to the low right (looking at the wearer) or if you prefer the British style which is the opposite. We will use the American style unless you request the British style.
​ Typically in the USA the American style is used unless you belong to the school, regiment or club etc with which the stripe pattern is associated. Some gentlemen prefer the British style although there exists the possibility that you will create ill will if you do not have "membership" rights to many ties.

Many American gentlemen have philosophically decided that in the USA anything goes but while in Great Britain they will be much more careful with what they wear.​


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

If you don't spend a great deal of time in England, it is really a moot point.

If you do, remember that no matter what you do, the British always seem to view us as their doltish wayward cousins so it may not matter how you wear the stripes. 

The above is nothing against the British, whose humor in the way they view us is truly enjoyable.


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## larsrindsig (Dec 31, 2006)

Is there such a thing as a printed or online guide to regimental, club and school colours and ties?


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

Am I the only one who thinks the idea of "having to earn a priviledge to wear a certain pattern" ridiculous? regardless if it's tartan or regimental ties.

I don't think ANY group has the right to POSSESS/OWN a certain pattern.

Hell, I'll name the pattern "solid white" the Tilt Tartan. No one can wear white shirt unless you belong to the Tilt Clan.

Ridiculous.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Untilted said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the idea of "having to earn a priviledge to wear a certain pattern" ridiculous? regardless if it's tartan or regimental ties.
> 
> I don't think ANY group has the right to POSSESS/OWN a certain pattern.
> 
> ...


As cooly says, unless you spend a lot of time in England, or run in circles with lots of british ex-pats, it would be a moot point. The best way I can explain it is Fraternity gear. You are in a fraternity right? Wouldn't you be annoyed if a bunch of yahoos who didn't understand your values, who hadn't participated in your rituals, and who didn't know you socially, wore clothing, or had a car decal, or a brand with your fraternity's letters? It is very similar with regimental ties. While you may say they aren't as direct as a bunch of letters, in some circles they are. I could probably tell which Oxford college someone went to just from their tie or scarf. Well regiments, clubs and colleges are a lot like fraternities. In some ways, they may be more sacred, especially regiments, when they carry the added significance of the sacrifice certian members have made. I know it isn't perfectly analagous, but its the best I can think of right now.


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## GMC (Nov 8, 2006)

*Sure, you can go both ways*

I lived in England for five years, but I avoid the British stripe purely because I don't want to butt into a club that I don't belong to. Probably the meaning of regimental stripes has been lost, but I'm funny that way. I grew up in a military family, and I have a lot of respect for uniforms. I do think you have to earn your way in.

Regardless, it's pretty hard to get a Brit stripe this side of the pond, ennit?

By the way, I just noticed as posting that my avatar (is that what you call the pix?) is, of course, a great Brit: Rolly Birkin, Q.C. He and I are as one. At the time of this photo, of course, he was very, very drunk.


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## tweedchap (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm currently wearing my St Andrews graduate tie, which has the stripes running from top left to bottom right, from the wearer's perspective. My Old School Tie has them going in the same direction. This means that I can buy Ben Silver's RAF tie as my Old School Tie--the RAF have their stripes going in the opposite direction!


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## Innovan (Dec 7, 2005)

If you look through https://www.goldings.co.uk/online_shop/ties.php , which is just ONE manufactorers interpretation of the regimental styles, you'll see the stripes go both ways, and that even they have the same colors used over and over again. Here's Royal Marines vs Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers sloping to two different directions:

And can people really tell at a glance the 11th Hussars

from the 12th Royal Lancers,

from the Lancashire Fusiliers,

from the Middlesex Regiment?

Probably not.

Now wearing a striped emblematic tie, like the Coldstream Guards

or the Grenadier Guards

because it is so distinctive would be in poor taste. No one would mistakenly overlap this from the fashion world. It would be the same as ordering out of
https://www.saundersinsignia.com/ and wearing these in the US.

But just a striped tie without emblematic pattern? There's already problems with different divisions already matching colors internally, long before you interject visiting Americans, Italians, and the rest of the globe into the stew. While no one can force them to redesign to something more distinctive, it's hard to justify any anger on their part when they choose to keep something so simple, common and easily duplicated by the unknowing and innocent.

That said, the problem for those who would be agast that there could possibly, somehow, somewhere be someone offended by their tie cannot merely avoid striped ties to both directions. Quite a few "regimental" ties are not striped, but instead emblematic ties. Consider 14th Army, 2nd Infantry Division, Royal Armoured Corps, Royal Artillery, Royal Corps of Signals, and the list goes on and on... No stripes, just repeated emblems.

Which raises another issue when the emblem is too common. Consider the Royal Navy Submariners tie, with dolphins, and compare it to what LL Bean and Brooks Brothers has innocently sold in the past:

And then there are unstriped ties like the Royal Artillety or the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve:

But there aren't that many distinct military, school and club ties for Britian. Those truly concerned algophiles, rather than avoiding all striped ties for the rest of their life, will find it relatively quick to just thumb through https://www.goldings.co.uk/online_shop/ties.php and see if what they are taking on their trip matches any of the existing. Most likely, it doesn't.

Or just wear Harry Potter school ties for your entire trip. You wouldn't be the first. ic12337:


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

If you do not know which way they go, I believe that your are not entitled to wear them.

So do NOT.

Every member of a Regiment knows his colours.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

Untilted said:


> I think the American stripes look much better. I refuse to wear British style regimental ties.


Clearly as anyone is only entitled to wear his OWN (singular) regimental tie then you should give up even thinking that you should.


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

Untitled said:


> I think the American stripes look much better. I refuse to wear British style regimental ties.


It is NOT a question of what "looks better" you are either entitled to wear the tie of your ONE Regiment or you are NOT.

Why do Americans think that they should be able to wear the tie of a regiment as a fashion accessory?


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

GBR said:


> It is NOT a question of what "looks better" you are either entitled to wear the tie of your ONE Regiment or you are NOT.
> 
> Why do Americans think that they should be able to wear the tie of a regiment as a fashion accessory?


This seems to be an outdated rule that the UK tries to make us feel guilty. I have never heard this until these messageboards.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

GBR said:


> It is NOT a question of what "looks better" you are either entitled to wear the tie of your ONE Regiment or you are NOT.
> 
> Why do Americans think that they should be able to wear the tie of a regiment as a fashion accessory?


Sorry Jeeves, I'm afraid that was part of the settlement when your boys chickened out at Yorktown.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

That being said, I suggest that any American tempted to dress up like a British old boy dress up as a pirate instead. You wont look as silly and its easier to buy the clothes.


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

I try not to wear a club or regimental tie, but I would never wear one in Britain. It is part of someones identity. Luckly there are a few US institutions who have ties esp. universities.


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

Remeber Ask Andy has a pocket square, cufflinks and even a tie. Since part of the point of these is identify fellow AskAndyites, what would happen if everyone began wearing them?Now please excuse me while I put on my University Club tie.(just kidding,I haven't picked it up yet)


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## larsrindsig (Dec 31, 2006)

shuman said:


> This seems to be an outdated rule that the UK tries to make us feel guilty. I have never heard this until these messageboards.


Well, I don't know. Would you wear a masonic ring? A SuperBowl ring? A Purple Heart? A t-shirt that said "I served in the Umpteenth Regiment"? A tie that said "I served in the Umpteenth Regiment"?

It's not so much a question of "owning" certain colours or making someone "feel guilty" - it's a question of how appropriate it is to wear borrowed feathers.

(I'm sorry - I realise the regimental stripes/family tartan discussion has been raised here before. But I must admit that wearing a pattern that has a very special meaning to certain people - and sends a very specific message like 'we're related' or 'we fought together in the war' is quite, quite wrong. - I believe someone recounted a story on AAAC of wearing a regimental tie and bumping in to an old boy who'd served in that particular regiment and of the disappointment he met when he had to explain that, in fact, he was only playing dress up.)


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Military ties are one thing, but clan tartans are just commercial BS, a completely manufactured tradition, developed primarily to sell clothes to foreigners.


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

Acually clan tartans where basically invented when George IV went to Scotland wearing royal stuart tartan. After that every noble wanted his own tartan. So you are right they are manufactured, but originally for Scottish nobles.(Today of course it is for foreigners) I used to be really interested in this sort of thing.A kilt is the only thing I wouln't wear in a clan tartan not my own, anything else who cares.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

On the other hand, in most parts of the US, a tie is only a tie. 

Certainly, people that post here know the difference. However, to most people in the US, they don't know, or care, that BB regimentals slant from right to left, Ben Silver regimentals slant from left to right, and the ones from Sam Hober are about half one way, half the other.

We are interested in stuff like that, which is why it is interesting to read posts here. Most of our friends would start to roll their eyes if we wanted to discuss the proper collar roll, or the proper depth of trouser cuffs. Same thing with the direction of regimental stripes. 

In the UK, it would probably be a mistake to wear a Ben Silver stripe. Someone would probably ask if you attended the last reunion of the "Mounted Indian Rifles", or some such. Makes no difference here.

For those in the US that like regimentals, one of the best is the University of Mississippi tie. Most that wear it have no idea that that is what it is, and couldn't find Oxford, Miss. on the map. (Only exception might be if you came down from Chicago to try a case in a Miss. court. That would make a big difference.)

Except for those that post here and have a lot of related expertise, in the US, for the most part, a tie is just a tie.


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## Innovan (Dec 7, 2005)

>It's not so much a question of "owning" certain colours or making someone "feel guilty"

Americans know that *some* regimentals are striped. So we have multiple examples of people so sensitive to the issue they avoid wearing *all* striped ties.
Ever.

Is this tie a regimental tie? It has stripes.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

Innovan said:


> >It's not so much a question of "owning" certain colours or making someone "feel guilty"
> 
> Americans know that *some* regimentals are striped. So we have multiple examples of people so sensitive to the issue they avoid wearing *all* striped ties.
> Ever.
> ...


Definitely a regimental tie. Very close to the 9th/12th Royal Lancers. Nice tie.


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## Khnelben (Feb 18, 2005)

*I wear ...*

my Westminster city school tie, my Moscow State University Law School tie, my father's two Australian rugby ties - one for the federation (or unioon) - green with kangaroos, and one for the North Quarter RU - also green - and I have several more from my Grandad - he brought them from the UK.

I can always justify where I got them from - and wearing one's family heirloom things is always acceptable.

Andrey


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

*Sam Hober Web Site*

This thread got me to thinking that I havn't been to the Sam Hober web site recently (https://wwwmulberrywood.com).

If you are interested, take a look at the page entitled, English Woven Silks. Click on that, and then check out the top row entitled Trad Patterns, or some such.

These were new to me, and irresistable! David may have gotten some input from someone at AAAT. If so, well done!

I also just learned from David that it is possible to get these made with the UK slant (heart to right hand), if you like.

My cup runneth over!


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## GBR (Aug 10, 2005)

shuman said:


> This seems to be an outdated rule that the UK tries to make us feel guilty. I have never heard this until these messageboards.


So shall we all wear USMC apparel and insignia as leisure or other social wear?

Precisely the same point.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Not sure if this was covered, but getting back around the original question this is from *The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes*:

How can you tell a British from an American made stripe tie? The stripes on the British tie run diagonally from high on the left shoulder to low on the right hip while American ties start high on the right shoulder down to the left hip. 

Why? European tie makers cut the material with the final surface up while Americans cut the fabric face down.


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## kkollwitz (Oct 31, 2005)

I've asked Benson & Clegg to opine. I'll post any response I get.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

anglophile23 said:


> Remeber Ask Andy has a pocket square, cufflinks and even a tie. Since part of the point of these is identify fellow AskAndyites, what would happen if everyone began wearing them?


Clearly, some would be fooled into thinking that large portions general populace was members of a clothing message board. The potentially catastrophic consequences of this misconception are too horrific even to be discussed here.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Coolidge24 said:


> Clearly, some would be fooled into thinking that large portions general populace was members of a clothing message board. The potentially catastrophic consequences of this misconception are too horrific even to be discussed here.


I wouldn't be able to show my face around here.


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

AldenPyle said:


> Sorry Jeeves, I'm afraid that was part of the settlement when your boys chickened out at Yorktown.


Very funny.

The whole thing is absurd- I always thought that if the stripes went UK style, it meant that it was an indication of service in a crown regiment and if they went US/ BB style, they were just colors on a tie. I believe that was the original reason for reversing the direction. That plus being consistent: left hand drive, left hand stripes.


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## Innovan (Dec 7, 2005)

> The stripes on the British tie run diagonally from high on the left shoulder to low on the right hip while American ties start high on the right shoulder down to the left hip.


Andy, I'd say you've been misled by old marketting hype from tie manufactorers. Even Flusser on page 153 of "Dressing the Man" refers to "The Regimental Canard" --canard meaning "a groundless rumor or belief" --that all British regimental stripes are high left shoulder to low right hip and that as long as Americans run the stripes high right shoulder to low left hip they will be safe from innocently wearing a striped tie that could offend Brits. Like the famous Tripler ad with its subtext "these stripes are safe for Americans to wear".

In reality one out of eight offical British regimentals slopes the alleged (well, by american tie manufactorers anyway) "american" way.

And the idea that somehow the facing being up or down during cutting influences the slope doesn't make a lick of sense if you think about it. All you have to do to change this is pick up the cutting pattern and rotate it the other way before you start cutting the bolt --as obviously already happens for 1 out of 8 regimental ties already.

Here's just a sample of offical regimentals that are sloped the alleged "american" way:
Intelligence Corps, Royal Corps of Signals, 5th Royal Inniskilling Gragoon Guards, The Royal Hussars, 1st The Royal Dragoons, 17th/21st Lancers, Manchester Regiment, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Royal East Kent Regiment, Cameronians, Suffolk Regiment, Warwickshire Yeomanry... the list goes on and on!

etc etc


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## jml90 (Dec 7, 2005)

Christ some of these British 'rules' are bull. You can't wear this stripe unless you go here you can't have an umbrella in the country you can't wear brown shoes in the city. I'll wear what ever I damn well please; which is one of the things that makes us not Iraq.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

jml90 said:


> Christ some of these British 'rules' are bull. You can't wear this stripe unless you go here you can't have an umbrella in the country you can't wear brown shoes in the city. I'll wear what ever I damn well please; which is one of the things that makes us not Iraq.


You can wear what you want here as well. There is nothing to stop you wearing the colours of a club or regiment you do not belong to, but surely out of common courtesy you would not want to offend those who have in some way earned the 'right' to wear them. There is a difference between the brown shoe type of 'rule' and the stripe sort: the former is to help you fit in and feel at ease; the latter is to help others.


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## jml90 (Dec 7, 2005)

Trimmer said:


> You can wear what you want here as well. There is nothing to stop you wearing the colours of a club or regiment you do not belong to, but surely out of common courtesy you would not want to offend those who have in some way earned the 'right' to wear them. There is a difference between the brown shoe type of 'rule' and the stripe sort: the former is to help you fit in and feel at ease; the latter is to help others.


This is like saying I can't wear a Falcons jersey.


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## Innovan (Dec 7, 2005)

Wackypedia's entry on school ties hardly puts the British in a very good light. It claims
"wearing a tie to which you have no right is a serious social gaffe, 
and detection *may traditionally result in having the tie forcibly cut off below the knot*."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_tie

Well, that'd be sure to encourage international understanding.

While Iran has paid Mutaween roaming the streets beating women for not wearing burkas and the like, I highly doubt Britain has paid Tie Police wandering the streets with truncheons in one hand and scissors in the other, forcibly cutting off the ties of hapless tourists who bought the wrong thing for $15 at a discount store in America, Italy or France.

And if there really were Tie Police wandering the streets of London, beating down with nightsticks men wearing the wrong tie and then cutting them off, would they really be so delicate as to care which way the slope went? "Hold off a minute there, Rupert. Sure, he's a forty year old man wearing Eton Highschool's colors in his tie, but look! They slope the other way! You'll have to leave off that choke hold with the baton there. Looks like I can't cut him after all."

The whole thing smacks of urban legend and boogey man stories ...but then postings like GBRs make me wonder.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

If an American showed up at White's with a Guards tie on, I know one or two fellows who would throw you out that lovely bow window. Wear what you want, you just have to keep your circumstances in mind. You wouldn't show up in Cambridge in all Harvard gear, would you? Or at NAS Coranado wearing a "Top Gun" flight jacket? No, unless of course you had some very good reason to do so. In 99% of situations you would might find yourself in the United States, it doesn't matter. But for that other 1%, you had better have a very witty reply already lined up, Lord knows you will need it.


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## old_style (Mar 18, 2007)

Are most of the striped ties at Brooks Bros safe or are most of them off limits (per Brit opinion)? Is it being suggested here that all traditional rep stripe ties should be avoided to prevent the chance of wearing a spoken for pattern? Even in the US?


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Oh for Christ's sake, it's really not that important.


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## shuman (Dec 12, 2004)

Coolidge24 said:


> Oh for Christ's sake, it's really not that important.


Wow, this has really gone on for three pages?


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## Innovan (Dec 7, 2005)

> If an American showed up at White's with a Guards tie on, I know one or two fellows who would throw you out that lovely bow window.


Isn't their bow window on the ground floor? It seems so in this picture of it.

Seeing how White's Club is most famous for Lord Alvanley betting £3,000 on which of two raindrops would first reach the bottom of a pane of the bow window, they could probably also take bets on which the american offender would prefer: Defenestration from a ground floor window, or having their tie forcibly clipped below the knot.

Maybe it might be easier just to present the poor guy with a different tie to wear during his visit. But that'd be a much less exciting solution.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Innovan said:


> Isn't their bow window on the ground floor? It seems so in this picture of it.
> 
> Seeing how White's Club is most famous for Lord Alvanley betting £3,000 on which of two raindrops would first reach the bottom of a pane of the bow window, they could probably also take bets on which the american offender would prefer: Defenestration from a ground floor window, or having their tie forcibly clipped below the knot.
> 
> Maybe it might be easier just to present the poor guy with a different tie to wear during his visit. But that'd be a much less exciting solution.


You are correct about the window's height, although I cannot imagine that defenestration would be a plesant experience, no matter how short the ensuing fall.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

Coolidge24 said:


> Oh for Christ's sake, it's really not that important.


True, but it is fun. Honestly, I think people should wear whatever ties they want. Just know that someone may ask you questions about them. I saw a guy in a Christ Church scarf the other day and asked him about it, and he was indeed a member of "The House". He seemed pleased that someone recognized the patern.


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## Innovan (Dec 7, 2005)

Now would a visitor --we're picking on Americans so much in this thread, let's make it someone from Hong Kong instead--

So a visitor from Hong Kong enters Whites Club wearing the tie below:
Do they get the heave-ho for wearing a Guards tie?

And really, how often a month does Whites destroy priceless antique windows just to defenstrate hapless tourists? You'd think that would get really expensive after a while. One gets the impression you're safer wearing loud hawaiian shirts at all times in Britain, there's so much violence associated with wearing the wrong tie by mistake.


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

jml90 said:


> This is like saying I can't wear a Falcons jersey.


What's a Falcon?


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## kkollwitz (Oct 31, 2005)

Heard back from Benson & Clegg. They said (my paraphrase) that in the UK wearing a tie representing a group you don't belong to is not recommended, doing so could cause you embarrassment. 
In the US it is ok as long as you don't pretend to be a member of the represented group.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

septa said:


> You are correct about the window's height, although I cannot imagine that defenestration would be a plesant experience, no matter how short the ensuing fall.


Depends on whether and how one lands on that fence!


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

old_style said:


> Are most of the striped ties at Brooks Bros safe or are most of them off limits (per Brit opinion)? Is it being suggested here that all traditional rep stripe ties should be avoided to prevent the chance of wearing a spoken for pattern? Even in the US?


Why on earth avoid wearing every stripe known to man in England? If you like your striped tie, just go ahead. If someone questions you about it, just brazen it out and boldly claim to be an ex-officer of the Queen's Own Native Beating Regiment or whatever it is. Provide a surfeit of spurious detail about the campaign or the master in charge of the house, etc. You'll rapidly learn whether your interlocutor has any sense of humo(u)r at all.


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## darin_arrick (Mar 6, 2007)

GBR said:


> So shall we all wear USMC apparel and insignia as leisure or other social wear?
> 
> Precisely the same point.


In the United States, I believe doing so would actually be illegal. It would be a Federal offense - impersonating an officer or whatnot.

It's a social convention backed up by weaponry, whereas the regimental tie issue is not (unless there is defenestration involved, then things are a bit more gray).


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## darin_arrick (Mar 6, 2007)

Coolidge24 said:


> Oh for Christ's sake, it's really not that important.


Of course, it isn't! *None of this clothing crap is important!* If you want to wear a neon purple 3-piece suit with a glen plaid in yellow to a job interview with your forest green tie and a beanie with propeller, you go right ahead. I promise I won't stop you. But, my guess is that you won't get the job.

And, my guess is that wearing a "correct" regimental tie for which you have no social rights in a situation that exposes such a faux pas would elicit similar reaction; in other words, social expulsion.

In the United States, we often think of things in terms of "money and laws"; if it takes money out of our pockets or lands us in jail, it's "bad". Many of us (me included, in some cases) have lost much or most (if not all) of our social understanding, so something like "regimental ties" seems "stupid" or "really not that important". This is one of our society's main problems, if you ask me.

Now, let's go put on solid or patterned ties, head down to a nice bar, and chat about this over some nice Kentucky Bourbon. :icon_smile:


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

darin_arrick said:


> And, my guess is that wearing a "correct" regimental tie for which you have no social rights in a situation that exposes such a faux pas would elicit similar reaction; in other words, social expulsion.
> :


In the United States, no such situation will arise.

In other countries, it will be immediately clear that you are from the United States and simply don't know any better.

It is one thing to be concerned about being in good taste. Another to be concerned about foolish trivialities.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

It would seem no more difficult than looking at the intent of the person wearing the tie, or other item.

eg, the most popular regimental stripe in the US, is that of the Argyle and Sutherland regiment. 99.9% of those that wear it in the US, don't have any idea what it represents, and buy it because they like the colors. They aren't trying to be something that they aren't. It's only a tie.

There is an association of Medal of Honor winners. One of the major thrusts of this association is to police the use of the Medal of Honor lapel pins by those that aren't Medal of Honor winners. Obviously, people that wear this insignia that aren't entitled to, are deliberitely trying to deceive, and are frauds.

It just can't be any more complicated than this.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

Coolidge24 said:


> In the United States, no such situation will arise.
> 
> In other countries, it will be immediately clear that you are from the United States and simply don't know any better.
> 
> It is one thing to be concerned about being in good taste. Another to be concerned about foolish trivialities.


I would not say that so freely, there several old east coast military units that also keep this practice, my own 7th New York being one of them, and if you wear their tie without being a member, you'll hear about it & offend the veteran. . .


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

consiously wearing the tie of a club or regiment that you do not belong to is in poor taste. period. if you are wearing a striped tie and it happens that it is a regimental or club tie, and you didn't know, it is an honest mistake. if you did know, it is in poor taste. 

we have had this discussion here maybe a half dozen times in the past 2 years. 

you shouldn't not do this because you fear getting tossed out the window of whites. you should not do this becuase it is wrong - in the same way that wearing a white suit in january in new york is wrong, or in the same way that using the "c" or the "n" words in mixed company are wrong.


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## darin_arrick (Mar 6, 2007)

Coolidge24 said:


> In the United States, no such situation will arise.


Then this question is moot when in the United States.



Coolidge24 said:


> In other countries, it will be immediately clear that *you are from the United States and simply don't know any better*.


Boy, isn't *that* the truth!



Coolidge24 said:


> It is one thing to be concerned about *being in good taste*. Another to be concerned about *foolish trivialities*.


What's the difference?

For many years (read: from early childhood until last year), I felt that "dressing up" in a jacket and slacks was a "foolish triviality". As for ties: what the hell are they for?! I won't wear one! Who cares if I show up at a job interview or a date wearing old jeans and a t-shirt if I can do the job or make love all night (respectively, of course!)? My qualifications are what matter, right? What is inside is important, right?

I've learned more now, and I can say that both inside and outside are important. If one wears a regimental tie in an environ where it may matter (say, a social club in London, or even on the street in London), one should have a few things:

The "social right" to wear that pattern
The respect for the people who have the "social right" to wear that pattern, as they have the "inside" to correspond with the "outside"
An understanding of the pattern and the environment
Now, say some businessman from the U.S. has no clue about ties; his wife buys his. He goes to England on business, and his associate - a member of White's - takes him there for lunch. The American is wearing a regimental tie, striped in the British manner (I'm assuming the Brits would ignore an "American stripe"). My guess as to someone's potential reaction leans more towards, "Oh, those are the colours of the Whazzahoozit 8th Mounted Regiment.", then silence, with the understanding that the American realize his faux pas, then either apologize and say he didn't realize it (then NOT wear that tie again in those situations) or to apologize and go ask the club concierge if there may be a club-supplied tie he could use during lunch (but not the "club tie", because he's not a member! :icon_smile_wink: ). Simple, and no broken glass to clean up.

Otherwise, "*you are from the United States and simply don't know any better*", and that comes across (as Americans often do in foreign countries) as being an uncaring, disrespectful buffoon.

I could be wrong, but this is my understanding.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Squadron A said:


> I would not say that so freely, there several old east coast military units that also keep this practice, my own 7th New York being one of them, and if you wear their tie without being a member, you'll hear about it & offend the veteran. . .


I'm all for being respectful of others, but if you're going to sell your regimental tie, scarf, etc . on public market you should expect others to wear it because they "like the colors"

Much like a Michael Jordan jersey. It would be one thing if there was only his personal jersey and I went down to some custom, um, jersey-maker, and said "copy Jordan's jersey". This would be me posing as Jordan. However, it is sold at large.

Same if you only gave your regiment's ties to members, and I, seeing one, said, ooh I'll copy that.

If you want exclusivity, keep it exclusive.

Exclusivity is the only way to tell who belongs and who does not. If you're going to sell something on the public market, it will lose that, invariably.

Hence, publicly marketed regimental ties are no better than the Mercedes that numerous people lease. Normally far beyond their means, financing, or public sale, have made these things that were once availalbe to a few people available to everyone.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

We do keep it exclusive and don't sell to the public. But if a neckwear company copies it without permission and sells to the public, I think then the veteran has the right to question the wearer.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Straight vertical or horizontal stripes would solve everything.

Or wavy: "What's that tie represent?"
"Oh, I'm a member of the Old Owsleyans."

Every time I wear my Hober Mets tie I claim to be Choo-Choo Coleman, to no avail.


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## Tucker (Apr 17, 2006)

A few months ago I bid on a Ben Silver tie on eBay. Within the hour I received a private message from another eBay user (neither the seller nor another bidder) informing me that I had bid on the tie of the "I Zingari Cricket Club" and that the tie should only be worn by members of said club. I'm not sure whether this particular eBayer was a member of this club (doubtful) or a self-appointed regulator of authentic regimental neckwear (more likely). I replied that the tie in question is not, in fact, the tie of the "I Zingari Cricket Club" but is most certainly the tie of the colors of the "4th Dragoon Guards" (which, according to Ben Silver, it is). I did not receive a reply.

I wear many regimental/club striped ties with only a slight regard to the history of the particular regiment/club. However, I am very careful with the ties that I wear on trips to the UK simply as a matter of respect.


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

In the cosmic scheme of things, most of this comes across as being fairly insignificant.

However, you occassionally come across a real life situation that demonstrates that there is a segment of the public that will believe absolutely anything.

There was a true story in the "sporting News" that ocurred when Joe Montana was at his Super Bowl winning best,with the 49ers.

A young lady showed up at the police station in some place like West Virginia, saying that she had met Joe Montana in a bar the night before. He had on a 49er jacket (relevance to the thread here), said that he was Joe Montana, and they got married that night. 

"Joe" then disappeared the next day, and she was fearful that she had been duped. 

You never know how these things will turn out.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Squadron A said:


> We do keep it exclusive and don't sell to the public. But if a neckwear company copies it without permission and sells to the public, I think then the veteran has the right to question the wearer.


Sure, but they should also be suing the company if there's a copyright, etc.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

Coolidge24 said:


> Sure, but they should also be suing the company if there's a copyright, etc.


No copyright, just tradition


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## Innovan (Dec 7, 2005)

Coolidge24 said:


> Sure, but they should also be suing the company if there's a copyright, etc.


Can't be done. Color combinations on their own without an identifying mark are not distinct enough to be trademarkable.

In America we have a much larger population, and there just aren't enough colors to go around. For example my university has four other american universities with the same exact same school colors. The inadvertant color matching problem happens all the time once your population gets above a certain size:

"Most competitive teams keep two sets of uniforms, with one design emphasizing the primary color and the other emphasizing the secondary color. In some sports, such as football the primary color is emphasized on home uniforms, while uniforms for other sports, notably basketball, use the secondary or a neutral color at home. This is done to avoid confusion when playing a team with similar colors."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_colors

And as to rude tourists... I live in San Francisco. We have a non-stop human tide of tourists flowing through the city from all corners of the globe. I'd welcome, nay, *cheer* a tourist wearing a tie with my school colors. That'd be a *vast* improvement over what they normally wear as they schlep through the city.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

wnh said:


> Ah. Perhaps I've been reading these boards too long; my entire perspective on clothing is based at looking at someone else rather than down at myself.


It seems to have also screwed up your knowledge of basic biology; no matter your point of view, the heart is still in the same place, and a stripe descending from the heart should be rather easy to understand.


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## wgb (Mar 2, 2007)

*Of ties and stripes*

A question: is the "7th New York" the same as the "7th Regiment", with the Armory building in New York? My dad served with the 7th Regiment in the 1950's 60s and 70's and has never mentioned regimental colors.

On snipping ties and what not: whatever the offense that may result in umbrage, if the offending guest means no offense, then it's boorish to embarass that person. The legend of snipping ties may have originated in England because, presumably the person wearing the tie in question would know of the social norm, but in our hypothetical of lunch at the club, if merely worn by an ignorant American, any proper gentleman would honor the imperative of making the guest feel comfortable over the potentially delicious prospect of amusement at an innocent's expense.

On the other hand, were I to go to an important function where the colors had meaning, I'd wear something else since I *do* know the difference.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

wgb said:


> A question: is the "7th New York" the same as the "7th Regiment", with the Armory building in New York? My dad served with the 7th Regiment in the 1950's 60s and 70's and has never mentioned regimental colors.


Yes, they had them for along time, since the 1900s for ties, etc. The Veterans Association had the ties made privately, etc.

PM me here for more information.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Innovan said:


> Can't be done. Color combinations on their own without an identifying mark are not distinct enough to be trademarkable.


Speaking as a law student, if that's definitely true, I stand corrected and it's because I haven't had a course in Intellectual Property. The textbook looked boring.

Then again, all of the textbooks look boring at this point.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Innovan said:


> Can't be done. Color combinations on their own without an identifying mark are not distinct enough to be trademarkable.


I thought there were limited situations where people have trademark protection over a distinctive colour - the robin's egg blue used by Tiffany & Co being the classic example.


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

Im in the printing business and have had some experience with Tiffany blue. Its not the color that makes it trademarked per se, it how you use the color. If a company decides to print their own jewelry boxes Tiffany blue, then that might be a problem. The reason being its the same or similar industry trying to capitalize on Tiffanys color. If a clothing company makes a t shirt and its Tiffany blue, no problem.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

rip said:


> It seems to have also screwed up your knowledge of basic biology; no matter your point of view, the heart is still in the same place, and a stripe descending from the heart should be rather easy to understand.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. My first response was in reply to trip, who said that a British striped tie goes down to the right. This is true if you're looking down at your own tie and considering "down" to be "toward the floor." But if you're looking at a picture of someone else, the stripes actually go down to the left, hence my confusion.

Regardless, isn't the heart really in the middle of one's chest, not off to the left?


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