# The Greatest Conspiracy Theory...



## Quetzal (Jul 25, 2014)

What conspiracy theory do most members feel is the most notorious, the most outlandish, the most plausible, and, well, the dumbest?

-Quetzal


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

The 9/11 theories satisfy all of these requirements.

Of the fringe theories those involving self-transforming machine elves rather tickle my fancy.

Curiously, journalist Jon Ronson set out to disprove many of the mainstream conspiracy theories (Bilderberg, Bohemian Grove etc.) and guess what? He found irrefutable evidence, much of it videotaped for posterity, that they were true. Alex Jones remains an ass, unfortunately - he has done more to discredit the conspiracy theories (that he supposedly promotes) than any man alive. A government agent perhaps?

:devil:


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## dr.butcher (May 28, 2014)

Fat-free milk. Those dairy industry bastards that tell us unpasteurised, unhomogenized full cream milk is bad for us are robbing us of one of life's little pleasures in order to line their own pockets. Skim milk has no place on supermarket shelves or in our fridges for that matter.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

dr.butcher said:


> Fat-free milk. Those dairy industry bastards that tell us unpasteurised, unhomogenized full cream milk is bad for us are robbing us of one of life's little pleasures in order to line their own pockets. Skim milk has no place on supermarket shelves or in our fridges for that matter.


Ha. My grandfather was always fond of pointing out that they used to feed the skim milk to the pigs.


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## dr.butcher (May 28, 2014)

Figures. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

The Big Bang.....

Because 1, Scientists don't understand nor do they all agree what really happened before the so-called Big Bang 2, nor do they agree on why it happened and 3, most importantly because they can't accept that the universe has ALWAYS existed. There doesn't have to have been a start....start-finish, up-down, in-out, just comes from the patterns of duality in the human mind.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Religion. Any and all of them.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Spoken like a true Maratiste.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Atheism - The conspiracy for people who think that Darwin was an atheist. 
Atheism - The conspiracy for people who can't see the scientific illogicality of the so called Big Bang
Atheism - The conspiracy for people who think that all animal life evolved from an amoeba in a pond
Atheism - The conspiracy for people who think that all human life spread out from one single Eve in Africa (and actually that one was disproved a couple of years ago)
Atheism - The conspiracy for a few hundred thousand people that in their disillusion think they are in the majority of the global population
Atheism - The conspiracy for people without enough brainpower to explain anything that the scientific community can't explain for them.
Atheism - The conspiracy for people that think science has all the answers
Atheism - The conspiracy for people who don't realise that science itself is a huge conspiracy
Atheism - The conspiracy in which no one knows they are conspirators, "we are just atheists, we believe in nothing unless someone hasn't already proved it for us, because we can't think for ourselves, we let scientists think for us".
Science - The conspiracy in which very few of the groundbreaking scientists were atheists.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Regarding Darwin, I would encourage people to read the title of Darwin's seminal work. He does not address the origins of life, merely the origins of species. 

Those unfamiliar or simply ignorant should make themselves familiar with the meaning of the word species. There is nothing antithetical between creation and the evolution of a species.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Atheism - The conspiracy for people who think that Darwin was an atheist.
> Atheism - The conspiracy for people who can't see the scientific illogicality of the so called Big Bang
> Atheism - The conspiracy for people who think that all animal life evolved from an amoeba in a pond
> Atheism - The conspiracy for people who think that all human life spread out from one single Eve in Africa (and actually that one was disproved a couple of years ago)
> ...


Rather funny coming from someone that was just crying about "lack of proof" in post 6. But I suppose your "proof" is a bunch of rewritten stories that are as realistic as greek and roman mythology. And you want to run around with no rules and all the "Tools" you deem as needed?

Does the Swedish ministry not frown upon Psychiatric patients serving in positions such as yours? Are you really allowed to carry firearms? Do they check to see if you're compliant with your meds?


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Van Pelt:



> Look, Charlie, let's face it. We all know that Christmas is a big commercial racket. It's run by a big eastern syndicate, you know.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

SG_67 said:


> Regarding Darwin, I would encourage people to read the title of Darwin's seminal work. He does not address the origins of life, merely the origins of species.
> 
> Those unfamiliar or simply ignorant should make themselves familiar with the meaning of the word species. There is nothing antithetical between creation and the evolution of a species.


Exactly, but so many athesits think he was an atheist.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Exactly, but so many athesits think he was an atheist.


How many? Can you give us any hard figures? How many do you know personally? How many have you spoken to? Is that up on any of the websites? Or are you blowing smoke again with a bunch of unseen and unproven "facts"?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

justonemore said:


> Rather funny coming from someone that was just crying about "lack of proof" in post 6. But I suppose your "proof" is a bunch of rewritten stories that are as realistic as greek and roman mythology. And you want to run around with no rules and all the "Tools" you deem as needed?
> 
> Does the Swedish ministry not frown upon Psychiatric patients serving in positions such as yours? Are you really allowed to carry firearms? Do they check to see if you're compliant with your meds?


I mentioned nothing about lack of proof. However, faith doesn't need proof. Faith is its own proof. 
1. I am not a psychiatric patient, I am a neuro-psychological outpatient...big difference 
2. I don't carry firearms in my current job. 
3. No, because they are voluntary meds for mental handicaps (aspergers, ADD) and psychological illnesses (depression, PTSS to name but 2 ) not for psychiatric abnormalities.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

justonemore said:


> How many? Can you give us any hard figures? How many do you know personally? How many have you spoken to? Is that up on any of the websites? Or are you blowing smoke again with a bunch of unseen and unproven "facts"?


I was an atheist for over 20 years and active in Secular Humanist orgs in UK and Sweden and meet dozens of atheists, many of whom regularly spouted the "Darwin atheist" stuff in their anti-theist tracts, as did their magazines. How can I possibly give you figures for a personal experience i.e. that I have known many atheists who thought that, why would that be recorded anywhere? If you feel for any given month that you have seen more Audis on the road than Opels, can you point us to where your experience of that is recorded on the interent?


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## sbdivemaster (Nov 13, 2011)

I'll play.

Most notorious: JFK assassination
Most outlandish: Fake moon landing
Most plausible: Obama not a citizen
The dumbest: 9/11 was inside job

*Disclaimer:* This list is not meant to state my position, one way or another, on any of these issues; I'm not posting to debate the merits or demerits of any of these, just responding to the OP.)


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Does everyone agree crack cocaine was invented by the CIA to control the African American population ?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Hitch said:


> Does everyone agree crack cocaine was invented by the CIA to control the African American population ?


According to Maxine Waters, it was!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

To be fair, the article asserts;



> The series, Dark Alliance, documented how a Bay Area drug network dumped thousands of kilos of cheap cocaine into L.A.'s black neighborhoods in the 1980s to fund a Latin American guerrilla army that was being run by the CIA.


Not that it was done to control the African American population.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Hitch said:


> Does everyone agree crack cocaine was invented by the CIA to control the African American population ?


There's at least a tiny kernel of truth to that one, in that we turned a blind eye to drug-dealing by contras.

My favorite conspiracy is the one that has everyone believing it's a good idea to wear sport coats so short that one's ass is visible. This is AAAC, after all--we have to keep it real at some point.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Wouldn't that be an Ike Jacket??


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> The 9/11 theories satisfy all of these requirements.


Except for plausibility, at least not if one thinks about how unlikely such a thing could remain a secret. Anyone who works in DC in government circles can tell you that no secret that big and awful and requiring the complicity of so many people could ever go any length of time without being leaked. Anyone who might have been involved in a conspiracy of such a magnitude as 9/11 would have known that there's no way they could get away with it. Everything gets leaked, sooner or later.

I'm reminded of that neat novel "Fatherland," which imagined life in the 1960s had the Nazis won. The protagonist, a cop, stumbles across the conspiracy to cover up what turns out to be the Holocaust. Part of what made that fictional story feel plausible was the fact that Nazi Germany was totalitarian and could control tightly information. It could (and in fact did) silence and eliminate anyone perceived to be a threat. There's no way anything like that can happen outside of a totalitarian regime.

In comparaison, let's imagine there really was a conspiracy behind the JFK assassination. Let's imagine the CIA did it, or the mafia. Or both. The number of people who might have known about it need not have been above a dozen individuals, all of whom would have good reason to keep their mouths shut. I think that's the sort of secret that could go on and on, and a conspiracy plotter would have had reason to have some confidence that they could get away with it.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Like Hoffa.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

32rollandrock said:


> There's at least a tiny kernel of truth to that one, in that we turned a blind eye to drug-dealing by contras.
> 
> My favorite conspiracy is the one that has everyone believing it's a good idea to wear sport coats so short that one's ass is visible. This is AAAC, after all--we have to keep it real at some point.


There could be some truth to the rumor that former polo players lurk here and speak to one another in sartorial codes.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Nobody's brought up Roswell? Area 51? By Gadfrey, people, these are _*classics!*_


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Hitch said:


> Does everyone agree crack cocaine was invented by the CIA to control the African American population ?


*Hmmm. Hard call. I wouldn't put it past the U.S. after such programs as using poor African Americans to test out syphilis (Tuskagee syphilis experiment): *

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

*Then there's the whole "eugenics" program that was so popular that Hitler borrowed the idea...*

"Eugenics was practised in the United States many years before eugenics programs in Nazi Germany[SUP][4][/SUP] and U.S. programs provided much of the inspiration for the latter."

"Today eugenics in the United States is still officially permitted. Between 2006 and 2010 close to 150 women were sterilized in Californian prisons without approval".

*The whole human testing without (informed) consent is a bit of downer too....*

Particularly in the 20th century, there have been numerous experiments performed on human test subjects in the United States that have been considered unethical, and were often performed illegally, without the knowledge, consent, or informed consent of the test subjects.
The experiments include: the deliberate infection of people with deadly or debilitating diseases, exposure of people to biological and chemical weapons, human radiation experiments, injection of people with toxic and radioactive chemicals, surgical experiments, interrogation and torture experiments, tests involving mind-altering substances, and a wide variety of others. Many of these tests were performed on children,[SUP][1][/SUP] the sick, and mentally disabled individuals, often under the guise of "medical treatment". In many of the studies, a large portion of the subjects were poor, racial minorities or prisoners.
*Funding for many of the experiments was provided by United States government, especially the United States military, Central Intelligence Agency, or private corporations involved with military activities.* The human research programs were usually highly secretive, and in many cases information about them was not released until many years after the studies had been performed.
The ethical, professional, and legal implications of this in the United States medical and scientific community were quite significant, and led to many institutions and policies that attempted to ensure that future human subject research in the United States would be ethical and legal. Public outrage in the late 20th century over the discovery of government experiments on human subjects led to numerous congressional investigations and hearings, including the Church Committee and Rockefeller Commission, both of 1975 and the 1994 Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments, among others.

Of course we should include that at any given point torture is considered ok.

Same can be said with police abuse of power (électrodes on the testicles, pistols in the mouth, etc)

Biases in the court system seem to be well documented (welath, women, race, etc)?

And to think that these are all factual... Not a "theory" amongst them.

But a program to get blacks hooked on a drugs is completely unrealistic? lol. On that one point the U.S. would devlop a strong set of ethics? Sure. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

To be honest, I don't think this one is real (not enough tattletales yet) but only because the the people in charge didn't have enough imagination/intellect to put it in place.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

justonemore said:


> *Hmmm. Hard call. I wouldn't put it past the U.S. after such programs as using poor African Americans to test out syphilis (Tuskagee syphilis experiment): *
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment
> 
> ...


Uncle Rant has had his say.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> Except for plausibility, at least not if one thinks about how unlikely such a thing could remain a secret. Anyone who works in DC in government circles can tell you that no secret that big and awful and requiring the complicity of so many people could ever go any length of time without being leaked. Anyone who might have been involved in a conspiracy of such a magnitude as 9/11 would have known that there's no way they could get away with it. Everything gets leaked, sooner or later.
> 
> I'm reminded of that neat novel "Fatherland," which imagined life in the 1960s had the Nazis won. The protagonist, a cop, stumbles across the conspiracy to cover up what turns out to be the Holocaust. Part of what made that fictional story feel plausible was the fact that Nazi Germany was totalitarian and could control tightly information. It could (and in fact did) silence and eliminate anyone perceived to be a threat. There's no way anything like that can happen outside of a totalitarian regime.
> 
> In comparaison, let's imagine there really was a conspiracy behind the JFK assassination. Let's imagine the CIA did it, or the mafia. Or both. The number of people who might have known about it need not have been above a dozen individuals, all of whom would have good reason to keep their mouths shut. I think that's the sort of secret that could go on and on, and a conspiracy plotter would have had reason to have some confidence that they could get away with it.


I realise that Americans are temperamentally disinclined toward the evidence in this matter but unfortunately there are many so-called conspiracy theories related to 9/11 which are extremely plausible. These are decidedly not secrets, so the notion that such activities are unlikely to remain secret is clearly invalid as a tool by which to refute them. The modern way to control the facts is not secrecy rather it is the dissemination of a surfeit, a veritable deluge, of contradictory information.

OK, let's get this party started. American Airlines Flight 77: a total void of credible forensic evidence - how did a passenger aircraft crash directly into the Pentagon without a single frame of tangible video footage nor a substantial piece of wreckage to be found?


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Pentheos said:


> Uncle Rant has had his say.


oh? Another personal insult from pentheos? Haven't you been banned yet? I can quickly come up with several personal insults you've initiated. I guess you couldn't add anything of value to the thread? My "rant"actually contained several conspiracies (the topic of this thread) you insult contained none (that I know of).


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

justonemore said:


> oh? Another personal insult from pentheos? Haven't you been banned yet? I can quickly come up with several personal insults you've initiated. I guess you couldn't add anything of value to the thread? My "rant"actually contained several conspiracies (the topic of this thread) you insult contained none (that I know of).


How about the conspiracy theory that you are an uncle? :crazy:


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Shaver said:


> OK, let's get this party started. American Airlines Flight 77: a total void of credible forensic evidence - how did a passenger aircraft crash directly into the Pentagon without a single frame of tangible video footage nor a substantial piece of wreckage to be found?


Don't confuse a lack of forensic evidence with an unwillingness to release the forensic evidence. The Pentagon is the largest and most secure military installation in the world. They didn't let Mr. Neighborhood Autopsy Man inside to take a look around. The military has their own people to do that sort of thing. (Interestingly, if you follow the Ferguson trial, they employed military pathologists to perform a third autopsy.) They are under no obligation to release that information to the public. Lots of eyewitnesses saw a plane fly into the Pentagon. There is even video, although it is far from clear.

There are a thousand reasons to think 9/11 was a terrorist attack. There are a few puzzles, but that is always the case.

I'm frankly more interested in the lost airliner that may have gone down in the south Indian ocean. Now that's a real mystery.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

justonemore said:


> oh? Another personal insult from pentheos? Haven't you been banned yet? I can quickly come up with several personal insults you've initiated. I guess you couldn't add anything of value to the thread? My "rant"actually contained several conspiracies (the topic of this thread) you insult contained none (that I know of).


My point was that you linked together about twenty-eight different things, buttressed with multiple misspellings. That qualifies as a rant in my book.

PM me with your address. I'll ship you a tinfoil hat, gratis.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Pentheos said:


> My point was that you linked together about twenty-eight different things, buttressed with multiple misspellings. That qualifies as a rant in my book.
> 
> PM me with your address. I'll ship you a tinfoil hat, gratis.


Another personal insult. Man oh man are you on a roll today Pentheos or what? I guess it's time to get the mods involved? All those past insults you laid out are still on record too you know...

3 major points (with referenced quotes) and 4 minor points (of 1 sentence each) equals 28 different things? I count 7....Are you a product of the U.S. public school system?

Multiple misspellings? I count 2 typing errors on "wealth" and "develop". Oh. My automatic program also put the french é onto électrodes. So 2-3 errors to you is equal to multiple misspellings?

Oh. Everything I mentioned has been admitted to by the U.S. government. Doesn't your denial of admitted fact make you the better candidate for the tinfoil hat?


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

justonemore said:


> Another personal insult. Man oh man are you on a roll today Pentheos or what? I guess it's time to get the mods involved? All those past insults you laid out are still on record too you know...
> 
> 3 major points (with referenced quotes) and 4 minor points (of 1 sentence each) equals 28 different things? I count 7....Are you a product of the U.S. public school system?
> 
> ...


#squirm

Anyways, the greatest contemporary conspiracy theory is concerning global warming. The notion that the earth, or the number of species on it, is static is rather quaint.

I live in the epicenter of western liberalism. I have lost count of the number of million dollar plus homes with a Tesla in the drive-way with some variation of "no gas" as a vanity license plate (e.g., "no cotwo", "kein gaz", "carbfree"). Nauseating. Typically, they lease a Toyota Prius for the hired help.

Meanwhile, Al Gore and his cronies laugh as their bank balances increase.

Manufactured catastrophe? Epic conspiracy.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

How about flouridated water?

A few wiki passages (AKA "A rant")....

"The *water fluoridation controversy* arises from political, moral, ethical,[SUP][1][/SUP] and safety concerns regarding the fluoridation of public water supplies. While some countries, particularly in Europe, have ceased water fluoridation, the controversy persists in others.[SUP][2][/SUP] Those opposed argue that water fluoridation may cause serious health problems, is not effective enough to justify the costs, and has a dosage that cannot be precisely controlled.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] In some countries, fluoride is added to table salt"

"Opposition to fluoridation has existed since its initiation in the 1940s.[SUP][2][/SUP] During the 1950s and 1960s, some opponents of water fluoridation suggested that fluoridation was a communist plot to undermine public health.[SUP][9][/SUP] In recent years water fluoridation has become a pervasive health and political issue in many countries, resulting in changes to public policy regarding water fluoridation."

"Fluoridation may be useful in the U.S. because unlike most European countries, the U.S. does not have school-based dental care, many children do not visit a dentist regularly, and for many U.S. children water fluoridation is the prime source of exposure to fluoride.[SUP]"[/SUP]


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Pentheos said:


> Don't confuse a lack of forensic evidence with an unwillingness to release the forensic evidence. The Pentagon is the largest and most secure military installation in the world. They didn't let Mr. Neighborhood Autopsy Man inside to take a look around. The military has their own people to do that sort of thing. (Interestingly, if you follow the Ferguson trial, they employed military pathologists to perform a third autopsy.) They are under no obligation to release that information to the public. Lots of eyewitnesses saw a plane fly into the Pentagon. There is even video, although it is far from clear.
> 
> There are a thousand reasons to think 9/11 was a terrorist attack. There are a few puzzles, but that is always the case.
> 
> I'm frankly more interested in the lost airliner that may have gone down in the south Indian ocean. Now that's a real mystery.


By forensic evidence I mean, as example, a wing or a tail fin or anything (anything at all that might suggest the presence of an aircraft) having been electronically recorded by the numerous citizens and news teams on scene in the immediate aftermath.

As to eye witnesses, there are many American *ahem* 'eye witnesses' to UFO landings and/or abductions.......

As you say, one of the most secure military installations in the world yet there is no video footage (far from clear or otherwise) of an aircraft, or even an impact, just an explosion.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Pentheos said:


> #squirm
> 
> Anyways, the greatest contemporary conspiracy theory is concerning global warming. The notion that the earth, or the number of species on it, is static is rather quaint.
> 
> ...


Do the world a favour.. Close yourself in a garage, start up your gas burning car, and go to sleep in it overnight. This way you can come on out the next morning and tell everyone how you have proof that gas engines don't pollute.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Petrol engines do not pollute the air. END OF! They release chemicals that already exist in the atmosphere and that nature produce, e.g. carbon monoxide. You can't pollute the air by adding more of one of its constituent parts. That said it is lethal to humans already at 35ppm.

Petrol engines release chemicals hazardous to mans that is not the same as polluting the air.

But then again, many elements are lethal to humans but exist naturally. Being lethal to humans is not the same as being damaging to the natural environment. Be it land, sea or air. Certain funghi, plants and animals can kill humans very quickly but they are part of the natural world.

One should not confuse "air pollution" with "hazardous to humans", plants breath CO2, if a human did that he would be dead very quickly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide

If I burn a pile of tyres or plastic furniture, then I will be releasing chemcials that pollute the air; because the burning releases toxic gases from man made materials that do not naturally exist in the air.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Hitch said:


> Does everyone agree crack cocaine was invented by the CIA to control the African American population ?


I thought that was LSD? :icon_scratch:


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

eagle2250 said:


> I thought that was LSD? :icon_scratch:


Sadly the LSD stories are true.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> I thought that was LSD? :icon_scratch:


Now, come on Eagle, I know that you know that LSD was invented by a Swiss geezer in the 1930s! The yanks didn't get wind of it till the late 40s.


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Now, come on Eagle, I know that you know that LSD was invented by a Swiss geezer in the 1930s! The yanks didn't get wind of it till the late 40s.






.-Albert Hofmann, Speech on 100th birthday[SUP][[/SUP]​ 

As he lived until 102 he must have been onto something. 

"It gave me an inner joy, an open mindedness, a gratefulness, open eyes and an internal sensitivity for the miracles of creation. [...] I think that in human evolution it has never been as necessary to have this substance LSD. It is just a tool to turn us into what we are supposed to be." Albert Hofmann on his 100th birthday.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> OK, let's get this party started. American Airlines Flight 77: a total void of credible forensic evidence - how did a passenger aircraft crash directly into the Pentagon without a single frame of tangible video footage nor a substantial piece of wreckage to be found?


Shaver,

I concede that the apparent lack of publicly available positive evidence that a large airliner struck the Pentagon is troubling. I once spent a lot of time Googling for such things and never found much, although many, many people say they saw the plane, and local emergency people called in a plane crash before they knew what it had hit. FWIW, everyone in DC knows someone who knows someone who says they saw it. I know, that's not much to go by.

I have nevertheless come to accept as true the assertions that:

1. If one flies a large metal object laden with fuel into a gigantic steel and concrete structure the kinetic energy and heat will be so great that there won't be much left that's readily identifiable from afar, like a big section of a wing or an engine or a landing gear assembly. Specialists inspecting the site will no doubt find pieces that they can identify as having once been part of a Boeing, but that's about it.

What happened resembles less a typical air crash (think Lockerbee) and more a missile strike against a large, hard object. The missile penetrates, melts and fragments, generating spalling effects and astonishing quantities of heat and energy that shatter, melt, deform, and vaporize. Think Exocet against the HMS Sheffield, only scaled up. How much of that missile could have been left? I've heard that at the Pentagon there were shreds of aluminum all over the place and that even made it into the courtyard at the center of the Pentagon. Sounds like spalling to me (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spall).

2. Few civilians not involved in the rescue/recovery, fire fighting, clean-up and rebuilding efforts ever would have gotten a good look at the site. The Pentagon is surrounded by a sea of parking lots; a decent view of that particular side is available only to people at a great distance, from a highway (Washington Boulevard); there really aren't any buildings that could be described as nearby. News crews never would have been given access, and certainly not in the hours and days following the event. Security is always tight and was particularly twitchy in those days when rumors were rampant and F-16s patrolled the skies. I saw at least two Stinger missile batteries set up, one near the Pentagon and another further south...

3. People who don't frequently see the Pentagon also underestimate the scale of the place&#8230;for most of the Pentagon's neighbors (folks on two sides my office have views of the Pentagon&#8230;my office overlooks a shopping mall), the wreckage of even a large plane would require a telescope to see, and I doubt pieces of it would be identifiable as such.

This Wiki article does a really good job of describing the crash and what's known about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77

We do have the following evidence: 
1. There is evidence Flight 77 and the people on board it existed and then disappeared.
2. There is strong evidence regarding AQ's 9/11 plot and the existence of AQ operatives on that flight and its inclusion in the conspiracy. Those men existed, as did their mission. I know there are people who deny all that, but they are out of their minds.
3. The information tied to points 1 and 2 have all be raked over by various US Government inquiries sponsored by different parts of the US Government. As we can see with the torture stuff coming out now, the USG is not capable of monolithically falling in behind something monstrous without disagreements and revelations making it to the press. Much of that information, by the way, has also been shared with other governments. If the USG is lying about the whole AQ thing, it has the complicity of many other governments.
4. As I mentioned before, far too many people would have to be in on the lie for it to survive&#8230;this would include American Airlines executives, I guess, or people who claim to be related to people who died on that flight, or all the many people who were at the crash site or involved in any of the subsequent investigations.


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## Chillburgher (Mar 19, 2014)

Shaver said:


> By forensic evidence I mean, as example, a wing or a tail fin or anything (anything at all that might suggest the presence of an aircraft) having been electronically recorded by the numerous citizens and news teams on scene in the immediate aftermath.


_Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?" _

https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-pentagon


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## justonemore (Jul 2, 2009)

Chillburgher said:


> _Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?" _
> 
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-pentagon
> View attachment 13551


Seems to be plenty of "expert" testimony on both sides of this. Although I'm quite certain the u.s. could pull it off, there's always a bit of denial they would do so. Of course the aftermath has been a big climb in government control & a decided downfall for American Civil Liberties. If you're rich & powerful enough to pull it off & you'll be richer and more powerful afterwards... then what's stopping you?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Chillburgher said:


> _Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?" _
> 
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-pentagon
> View attachment 13551


For every scientific article such as this I can counter with an alternate respected scientific article to the contrary. But let's save that for the discussion of the collapse of the WTC buildings, most especially WTC7.

At any rate, I am not disputing that an aircraft's wings would shear in such an impact and that windows need not break. I shall address the paucity of wreckage in my response to Tocquers.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

For the record, I don't buy the official story regarding TWA 800, although there the cover up is not hiding what the US Government did but refusing to look too closely at what someone else might have done.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> For the record, I don't buy the official story regarding TWA 800, although there the cover up is not hiding what the US Government did but refusing to look too closely at what someone else might have done.


Also for the record, I do not believe the 9/11 conspiracies. I merely enjoy the recursive and baroque thought process that inform them. Whilst there is much that does not add up (we feel it intuitively) the end result of the various 'explanations' beggars credulity.

I have no doubt that aircraft were utilised as weapons (who precipitated this strategy is another matter, however).

At any rate it was a dark day for me personally, I was injured on 9/11.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Also for the record, I do not believe the 9/11 conspiracies. I merely enjoy the recursive and baroque thought process that inform them. Whilst there is much that does not add up (we feel it intuitively) the end result of the various 'explanations' beggars credulity.
> 
> I have no doubt that aircraft were utilised as weapons (who precipitated this strategy is another matter, however).
> 
> At any rate it was a dark day for me personally, I was injured on 9/11.


It was a dark day for many of us, for many different reasons. I'll certainly never forget that day.

What happened to you on 9/11?

My Chilean wife made a point of sitting me down and making me watch a documentary about what 9/11 means for Chile.

When last in Paris I got in a fight with my (Moroccan origin) taxi driver about 9/11. He clearly had been spending too much time on the internet and was full of theories. I got angry at him and basically said, "look, it's clear to me that you have a psychological need to believe that your fellow Muslims and Arabs (and I think there were Moroccans involved) were not involved in this horror&#8230;you're suffering from some kind of cognitive dissonance because the Muslims and Arabs you know and love could never be responsible for something like this&#8230;it simply does not compute with your understanding of life, and I praise you for that&#8230;but perhaps it's for everyone's best simply to acknowledge the terrible truth and then think about what it means."

I guess a similar argument could be made about ISIS and the phenomenon by which young men and women from good families get it in their head to run off and join that crew&#8230;sadly, from what I've heard there's a conspiracy theory current in the Middle East that Israel created ISIS&#8230;setting aside the ease with which one falls back on a particular suspect, what one sees is a need to assign responsibility elsewhere. It's far more comfortable to blame an evil on someone else than to have to contemplate the possibility that it came from within.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

phyrpowr said:


> Nobody's brought up Roswell? Area 51? By Gadfrey, people, these are _*classics!*_


Some of the Roswell/UFO stuff citings have now been attributed to flights out of Area 51 of the A-12 Oxcart, a CIA plane the existence of which was only declassified maybe 20 years ago. It's the earlier iteration of the SR-71&#8230;a slightly smaller one-seater that went faster and higher than the SR-71. How fast and how high seems to remain still classified. Anyway, it was unpainted, and at times when it flew the engines made multi-colored pulses&#8230;so there's a shiny thing moving faster and higher than any plane should and in some instances producing odd lights&#8230;and no explanation given, ever, including to air traffic controllers who would have every reason to be baffled but what they were seeing.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> It was a dark day for many of us, for many different reasons. I'll certainly never forget that day.
> 
> *What happened to you on 9/11?
> *
> ...


On 9/11 I was sojourned at a location in Berkshire and being rather delightfully entertained by the Contessa in her bedchamber. Unfortunately her thoroughly inconsiderate husband returned home utterly unannounced - which put paid to this jolly caper. I was forced to make a most unseemly dash out through the window. I slipped away across the ramparts and scrambled down some fortuitously located ivy. Just as I was within spitting distance of being able to show a clean pair of heels the trellis gave way and I fell the last few feet spraining my blasted ankle - poor show, eh? Anyway, whilst I eventually made good my escape the spouse had caught enough of a glimpse of me, hobbling away across the estate and into the gloom, to arouse his suspicions as to my identity. I doubt I shall ever see my name on the New Year's Honours List now. What rotten luck.

.
.
.
.

.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Shaver said:


> On 9/11 I was sojourned at a location in Berkshire and being rather delightfully entertained by the Contessa in her bedchamber. Unfortunately her thoroughly inconsiderate husband returned home utterly unannounced - which put paid to this jolly caper. I was forced to make a most unseemly dash out through the window. I slipped away across the ramparts and scrambled down some fortuitously located ivy. Just as I was within spitting distance of being able to show a clean pair of heels the trellis gave way and I fell the last few feet spraining my blasted ankle - poor show, eh? Anyway, whilst I eventually made good my escape the spouse had caught enough of a glimpse of me, hobbling away across the estate and into the gloom, to arouse his suspicions as to my identity. I doubt I shall ever see my name on the New Year's Honours List now. What rotten luck.
> 
> .
> .
> ...


That might be my favorite post ever. I rather feel for the poor cuckold. If I were him I surely would have tracked you down and demanded satisfaction.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> Some of the Roswell/UFO stuff citings have now been attributed to flights out of Area 51 of the A-12 Oxcart, a CIA plane the existence of which was only declassified maybe 20 years ago. It's the earlier iteration of the SR-71&#8230;a slightly smaller one-seater that went faster and higher than the SR-71. How fast and how high seems to remain still classified. Anyway, it was unpainted, and at times when it flew the engines made multi-colored pulses&#8230;so there's a shiny thing moving faster and higher than any plane should and in some instances producing odd lights&#8230;and no explanation given, ever, including to air traffic controllers who would have every reason to be baffled but what they were seeing.


Really? I heard it was lunar reflections from a gas cloud created by the Bilderbergers after a bean dinner at Bohemian Grove. My barber's cousin's mechanic's neighbor's daughter heard it from a guy who almost finished Air Force ROTC.


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## Quetzal (Jul 25, 2014)

Does anyone think that there was some form of conspiracy behind the decline of mass transit in the United States?

-Quetzal


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

Quetzal said:


> Does anyone think that there was some form of conspiracy behind the decline of mass transit in the United States?
> 
> -Quetzal


GM's role in the above-referenced issue is well-documented via numerous resources. A quick Google search will net you anything you wish to know.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Come on now, fellas. You are falling into the trap set by the Lizard People. They've got you arguing about this and that while they and their human-reptilian hybrid lackeys rule the world!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

My own personal theory of a massive hidden fact is that millions of years ago the, then both land and water residing, ceteacens said, "Goodbye and Good luck with the land" to their primate workers and pets...and scuttled off to the sea for ever!


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Petrol engines do not pollute the air. END OF! They release chemicals that already exist in the atmosphere and that nature produce, e.g. carbon monoxide. You can't pollute the air by adding more of one of its constituent parts. That said it is lethal to humans already at 35ppm.
> 
> Petrol engines release chemicals hazardous to mans that is not the same as polluting the air.
> 
> ...


Your ignorance (apologies if you find the word too pejorative) coruscates.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Edwin Ek said:


> Your ignorance (apologies if you find the word too pejorative) coruscates.


And on what is clearly a tongue in cheek thread where opinions and outlandish statements are the order of the day, your rudeness marks you as an oik.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Quetzal said:


> Does anyone think that there was some form of conspiracy behind the decline of mass transit in the United States?
> 
> -Quetzal


It wasn't a decline, the street car was replaced with buses.

GM's influence is not a conspiracy, it's a fact!!


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## Quetzal (Jul 25, 2014)

WouldaShoulda said:


> It wasn't a decline, the street car was replaced with buses.
> 
> GM's influence is not a conspiracy, it's a fact!!


Oh trust me, I know VERY well about that one.

What I'm asking is about the RISE of the automobile after the Second Great War, particularly with freeways, leading to the decline of America's railroads (I believe Canada owns more track in the U.S.), and perhaps how they, like the rise of the suburbs, were only intended to continue the Big Three's prosperity in the growing economy. Apparently, the Independents could not survive due to government restrictions of material (from whoever produced the most equipment in WWII) in the 1950s, thus leading me to question the industry in that period.

-Quetzal


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Sometimes competition in a free marketplace results in the best product winning.

It isn't always a conspiracy or someone cheating the system.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

phyrpowr said:


> Nobody's brought up Roswell? Area 51? By Gadfrey, people, these are _*classics!*_


*tinfoil hat*

I used to believe this nonsense but nowadays not so much. If there were little green men out there surely someone somewhere would've shot some decent footage of a UFO up close in broad daylight. I'm still waiting for the giant mothership to appear over the White House like in Independence Day

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

gaseousclay said:


> *tinfoil hat*
> 
> I used to believe this nonsense but nowadays not so much. If there were little green men out there surely someone somewhere would've shot some decent footage of a UFO up close in broad daylight. I'm still waiting for the giant mothership to appear over the White House like in Independence Day
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One of the late, lamented tabloids (think it was _National Enquirer_) always printed "genuine photos" the new President walking in the Rose Garden with the space aliens, usually about a month after inauguration.


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## smmrfld (May 22, 2007)

phyrpowr said:


> One of the late, lamented tabloids (think it was _National Enquirer_) always printed "genuine photos" the new President walking in the Rose Garden with the space aliens, usually about a month after inauguration.


_Weekly World News_. I miss it dearly...one of the finest publications ever to exist.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Diana Spencer. Accident? Only a fool would believe so.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Shaver said:


> Diana Spencer. Accident? Only a fool would believe so.


Shaver, I think that celebrity + paparazzi + fast cars + alcohol = "accident waiting to happen". Now, I've never paid much attention to the details of that tragedy, but I'm surprised the type of thing doesn't happen more often.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

^The details surrounding the tragedy are bewildering. On scene eye witnesses, including a doctor, reported Lady Di as being alive and with only minor injuries. Indeed this was the detail on the first news flash broadcast, which I viewed in the early hours of that morning.


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## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

Even the second time around, this thread is very entertaining. I forgot how exciting and outlandish some of our former AAAC members were. The interchange has almost become a bit boring without their nonsensical postings. Anyways, a conspiracy theory came up while reading Shaver's posts. Shaver is very well spoken, quick-witting, and he always looks dashing in his photos. He is almost too good to be true (your welcome for me laying it on thick Shaver). What if Shaver was really some 30-something male living in his mother's basement who is a computer programer and has plenty of time to concoct this English personality that we have all come to enjoy?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

immanuelrx said:


> Even the second time around, this thread is very entertaining. I forgot how exciting and outlandish some of our former AAAC members were. The interchange has almost become a bit boring without their nonsensical postings. Anyways, a conspiracy theory came up while reading Shaver's posts. Shaver is very well spoken, quick-witting, and he always looks dashing in his photos. He is almost too good to be true (your welcome for me laying it on thick Shaver). What if Shaver was really some 30-something male living in his mother's basement who is a computer programer and has plenty of time to concoct this English personality that we have all come to enjoy?


You mean that you haven't known that for years?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Thank you. However as I tend toward epistemological solipsism then the onus is rather upon everything else to prove that it exists to me.



immanuelrx said:


> Even the second time around, this thread is very entertaining. I forgot how exciting and outlandish some of our former AAAC members were. The interchange has almost become a bit boring without their nonsensical postings. Anyways, a conspiracy theory came up while reading Shaver's posts. Shaver is very well spoken, quick-witting, and he always looks dashing in his photos. He is almost too good to be true (your welcome for me laying it on thick Shaver). What if Shaver was really some 30-something male living in his mother's basement who is a computer programer and has plenty of time to concoct this English personality that we have all come to enjoy?


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

This one is new to me: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ahmadinejad-claims-us-wants-to-arrest-hidden-imam/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

tocqueville said:


> This one is new to me: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ahmadinejad-claims-us-wants-to-arrest-hidden-imam/
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It must be true, after all, it's from such a reliable source.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Are you referring to Ahmedinajad or the Times of Israel?


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

I always find it laughable that so many Americans are fixated on the Kennedy assassination while so few know that the Lincoln assassination was part of a rather large conspiracy. Sad, really.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

smmrfld said:


> _Weekly World News_. I miss it dearly...one of the finest publications ever to exist.


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## ran23 (Dec 11, 2014)

Sandy Hook?


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

ran23 said:


> Sandy Hook?


Is there a Sandy Hook conspiracy theory?

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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

tocqueville said:


> Is there a Sandy Hook conspiracy theory?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've heard many claim it was all just for show--the whole town was in on it as a conspiracy to rid the country of firearms out of sympathy for the children.


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## Veblen (Aug 18, 2014)

universitystripe said:


> I've heard many claim it was all just for show


Is "just for show" supposed to mean that no actual shooting occured, but that the whole incident was staged? If so, that seems like a rather benign variant. The version I read about (probably originating with the "black helicopter" crowd) didn't deny that a shooting occured. But rather than Sandy Hook and other spree shootings being the crimes of an isolated individual, it was speculated that they might be false flag operations orchestrated by certain political interests to justify more restrictive firearms laws and other "domestic security" legislation.


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## immanuelrx (Dec 7, 2013)

universitystripe said:


> I've heard many claim it was all just for show--the whole town was in on it as a conspiracy to rid the country of firearms out of sympathy for the children.


I really hope no one believes this garbage.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Didn't the local newspaper, after the tragedy, print the names or addresses of all registered gun owners in town?

Not necessarily a conspiracy theory, but an odd editorial choice nonetheless.


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## moltoelegante (Sep 23, 2015)

Quetzal said:


> What conspiracy theory do most members feel is the most notorious, the most outlandish, the most plausible, and, well, the dumbest?
> 
> -Quetzal


Does religion count?


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

I enjoyed re-reading this thread, especially my contributions. I didn't realize how many have been banned / suspended.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Crisis Actors


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