# Carmina at The Shoe Mart



## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

I've always wanted to try a pair of Carmina shoes, having bought Yankos in the past. The Shoe Mart has a pretty good selection, but are they worth $545-$575 for calf? That's getting close to C&J prices, well above AE and Loake1800. I know Carmina is known for shell, but any thoughts on their calf?


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

I just had the opportunity to look over a broad range of their products for the first time, as a new premium shoe store just opened in Toronto:









I can't compare to C&J (though LeatherFoot will be getting that brand in soon) but the quality here is well above AE (of which I've owned several) and Loake 1800 (of which I own 1 pair). I had checked out the AE Franciscan (tan single monk) just the previous week and found that the Carmina single monk pictured above blew it out of the water.

Nice styles and solid value for money. I was diverted in my quest for a tan single monk by the midnight blue shell wholecuts, which came home with me. :cool2:


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## AlexS (May 20, 2012)

Based on owning just a single pair, I find Carmina's calfskin shoes to be luxurious and exquisite. They are generally more refined than AE and typically made with a more sculpted last.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Without any width offerings it is a style brand rather than a quality brand.


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## Belfaborac (Aug 20, 2011)

What an amazingly ignorant comment.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

DG123 said:


> Without any width offerings it is a style brand rather than a quality brand.


No, 150 different widths is just something American shoe companies have marketed on for a long time. Not really that useful. It's not a quality denominator. The real quality brands (the British brands) get along with very few widths.

Varying widths does not a custom shoe fit nor a perfect fit make. That's from having the last made up to your feet. Feet are three dimensional.

Carmina is below C&J in quality (though the leather seems similar) but above AE and Loake 1880, both in quality (both) and in style (vs AE, Loake 1880s are more elegantly made).


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Multiple widths defines quality? Is is still April 1st?


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

The best American shoe companies (and retail distributors) are willing to spend the money to produce (and stock) multiple widths. Correct fit is as much a factor to define "quality footwear" as is materials or craftmanship. Offering widths proves a true committment to quality.
Most brands , and retailers, don't want to spend the money producing or stocking widths. They are selling style rather than quality.



Bjorn said:


> No, 150 different widths is just something American shoe companies have marketed on for a long time. Not really that useful. It's not a quality denominator. The real quality brands (the British brands) get along with very few widths.
> 
> Varying widths does not a custom shoe fit nor a perfect fit make. That's from having the last made up to your feet. Feet are three dimensional.
> 
> Carmina is below C&J in quality (though the leather seems similar) but above AE and Loake 1880, both in quality (both) and in style (vs AE, Loake 1880s are more elegantly made).


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Bjorn said:


> No, 150 different widths is just something American shoe companies have marketed on for a long time. Not really that useful. It's not a quality denominator. The real quality brands (the British brands) get along with very few widths.
> 
> Varying widths does not a custom shoe fit nor a perfect fit make. That's from having the last made up to your feet. Feet are three dimensional.


Entirely correct.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

RogerP thanks for the great photos. 

Shoe Mart makes it possible to buy Carmina without the overseas shipping hassles. Any retailer/etailer that becomes a dependable US source for EG, C&J, Church, etc. could make a mint. As it stands one has to pay overseas shipping ( with long waits) and deal with uncertain sizing. I suppose boutiques like Leather Soul are one source, but there remains a huge untapped demand in the US.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

A few years ago, Michael Alden arranged for Carmina to make a limited edition cordovan balmoral boot for subscription by members of the London Lounge. While two factors in his choice were Carmina's willingness to cut a pattern for the boot and their well know expertise with cordovan, that Mr. Alden settled on Carmina is a testimonial of the highest order.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Please excuse a piggyback question here but no response on the Women's forum -- any recommendations for makers of women's shoes, something comparable to AE? It's for my mom, she just needs something basic.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

In many respects Munro Shoe, a long established USA shoe manufacturer of (primarily) womens shoes, is comparable to Allen Edmonds.

https://www.munroshoes.com/



zzdocxx said:


> Please excuse a piggyback question here but no response on the Women's forum -- any recommendations for makers of women's shoes, something comparable to AE? It's for my mom, she just needs something basic.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

DG123 said:


> The best American shoe companies (and retail distributors) are willing to spend the money to produce (and stock) multiple widths. Correct fit is as much a factor to define "quality footwear" as is materials or craftmanship. Offering widths proves a true committment to quality.
> Most brands , and retailers, don't want to spend the money producing or stocking widths. *They are selling style rather than quality.*




I don't see how offering additional sizes/widths equates with higher quality. It is indicative of excellent variety and attempting to please the consumer/appeal to more consumers, but that is really no reflection on product quality.

I am a strong proponent of AE shoes, but simply don't agree with your comment.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

To provide the wearer the functional benefits for which a shoe or boot was designed, correct fit is necessary. Certainly fit is a most significant component of what defines quality footwear.
Regarding widths, I estimate the USA mens footwear market is approximately 55% medium, 35% wide, and 10% narrow. Any brand (or retailer) promoting its business as a supplier of quality footwear, should make available a range of width sizing. Otherwise, that brand (or retailer) is simply trying to save costs by refusing to produce (or stock) widths. Producing or stocking only medium widths, in an effort to reduce inventory expense, is fine ; but that policy is not in harmony with the concept of "quality" footwear.



DocD said:


> [/B]
> 
> I don't see how offering additional sizes/widths equates with higher quality. It is indicative of excellent variety and attempting to please the consumer/appeal to more consumers, but that is really no reflection on product quality.
> 
> I am a strong proponent of AE shoes, but simply don't agree with your comment.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

DocD said:


> I don't see how offering additional sizes/widths equates with higher quality.


That's because offering additional sizes/widths doesn't equate with higher quality. Nothing wrong with your eyes.



jeffdeist said:


> RogerP thanks for the great photos.
> 
> Shoe Mart makes it possible to buy Carmina without the overseas shipping hassles. Any retailer/etailer that becomes a dependable US source for EG, C&J, Church, etc. could make a mint. As it stands one has to pay overseas shipping ( with long waits) and deal with uncertain sizing. I suppose boutiques like Leather Soul are one source, but there remains a huge untapped demand in the US.


You're welcome. I was tickled to find a new local source for Carmina (and G&G, St. Crispin's, Corthay, AS etc.) for exactly the reasons you mention. I think they will do very well indeed.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

DG123 said:


> In many respects Munro Shoe, a long established USA shoe manufacturer of (primarily) womens shoes, is comparable to Allen Edmonds.
> 
> https://www.munroshoes.com/


Thank you.


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## DocD (Jun 2, 2007)

DG123 said:


> To provide the wearer the functional benefits for which a shoe or boot was designed, correct fit is necessary. Certainly fit is a most significant component of what defines quality footwear.
> Regarding widths, I estimate the USA mens footwear market is approximately 55% medium, 35% wide, and 10% narrow. Any brand (or retailer) promoting its business as a supplier of quality footwear, should make available a range of width sizing. Otherwise, that brand (or retailer) is simply trying to save costs by refusing to produce (or stock) widths. Producing or stocking only medium widths, in an effort to reduce inventory expense, is fine ; but that policy is not in harmony with the concept of "quality" footwear.


Sorry, still don't agree with your logic. If you are 6'9", you'll probably have difficulty fitting into the new model Ferrari. With your logic, since Ferrari does not worry about making a car to fit the extemes of height or weight, they must not make a quality car.

Offering multiple widths is one FEATURE of a quality shoe, but that does not mean every quality shoe must be offered in multiple widths. That simply broadens the base of potential consumers, just as not offering various widths narrows the base of potential consumers. But I guess your definition of quality shoes and mine differ.

So when what I consider the worst manufacturer of shoes (Sketchers) offers widths, I guess you will consider them quality footwear??


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## TheBarbaron (Oct 8, 2010)

DG123 said:


> To provide the wearer the functional benefits for which a shoe or boot was designed, correct fit is necessary. Certainly fit is a most significant component of what defines quality footwear.
> Regarding widths, I estimate the USA mens footwear market is approximately 55% medium, 35% wide, and 10% narrow. Any brand (or retailer) promoting its business as a supplier of quality footwear, should make available a range of width sizing. Otherwise, that brand (or retailer) is simply trying to save costs by refusing to produce (or stock) widths. Producing or stocking only medium widths, in an effort to reduce inventory expense, is fine ; but that policy is not in harmony with the concept of "quality" footwear.


While I admire AE (and Rockport, and some other brands) for offering shoes that fit a large range of customers, that has zero to do with the quality of the shoe, or even some abstract "brand quality". Many excellent brands succeed by filling a narrow niche extremely well and not venturing outside that niche. If I followed your definition, then I could one-up AE on quality by offering a pleather and rubber shoe in AAAA, AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, E, EE, EEE, EEEE, and EEEEE widths.


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## HalfwayDone (Dec 4, 2012)

I recently purchased the Carmina Marlow from ShoeMart. My two observations are as follows:

- I really like ShoeMart ( just wish they carried more Carmina models)
- I really, really like Carmina. Can't compare to C&J yet but I like them better than the AEs I own and they compare favorably to the Alden's I own. 

Crossing my fingers that they expand their breadth of Carmina offerings...


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

DG123 said:


> The best American shoe companies (and retail distributors) are willing to spend the money to produce (and stock) multiple widths. Correct fit is as much a factor to define "quality footwear" as is materials or craftmanship. Offering widths proves a true committment to quality.
> Most brands , and retailers, don't want to spend the money producing or stocking widths. They are selling style rather than quality.


Multiple widths is not a key factor for fit. It really is not.

If you make a medium quality shoe with uninteresting lasts in 10 widths it just means you have that shoe in several widths. Not that you are making great quality shoes.

Stocking widths is not a factor.


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## TheRomanhistorian (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm still unsure about what 'quality' and 'width' actually represent other than some attempt to twist a word's definition to fit one's idiosyncrasies. Especially since this 'definition' has been, often, the least useful response to similar threads. 

To return to the topic: Those Carminas look very nice and, were I not so heavily invested in English shoes (all of high quality), I would perhaps be getting a pair of these. The leather looks very good, indeed. 

RogerP: How does the fit on these run versus your Loake 1880 line shoes?


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

TheRomanhistorian said:


> RogerP: How does the fit on these run versus your Loake 1880 line shoes?


These are the Loakes in question (pic and purchase from Herring Shoes):

The Carmina wholecuts pictured earlier are on the Rain last and fit slightly longer and narrower than the Loakes. Which isn't to say they are narrow in absolute terms, as these particular Loakes are some of the widest-fitting standard width shoes I have come across.

It's not hard to understand your reluctance to branch out, as there are so very many quality English shoes from which to choose. That said, I'm extremely please with my Carminas and am already planning a second purchase.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

I dont agree with much of DG123's wording in this thread, but I understand where he is coming from.

Brands that make high quality shoes and then dont offer any variation in width - seem to me, to be excluding a great many potential customers from their products. 

Maybe they dont need the business, or maybe (to continue the Ferrari example) they feel the look and beauty of their designs only work on a medium last. But they have to admit they are seriously limiting their potential client base - by not expanding their offerings.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

from what I can tell, Carmina shoes are highly regarded in terms of price and quality. I'm glad to see TSM is carrying their line, unfortunately, their limited selection means they have nothing I want. I do like their austerity brogues (Marlow) but i'd prefer them in a dark brown, not black.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

By not offering width sizing, the message sent is "our company does not especially care if the shoe fits".
The assumption made is that if the materials, craftmanship, and styling is good, consumers will buy the brand regardless of fit. 
It is a company's prerogative to ignore the significance of fit, but doing so does diminish the quality and, or, integrity of the brand.



mrkleen said:


> I dont agree with much of DG123's wording in this thread, but I understand where he is coming from.
> 
> Brands that make high quality shoes and then dont offer any variation in width - seem to me, to be excluding a great many potential customers from their products.
> 
> Maybe they dont need the business, or maybe (to continue the Ferrari example) they feel the look and beauty of their designs only work on a medium last. But they have to admit they are seriously limiting their potential client base - by not expanding their offerings.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

mrkleen said:


> Brands that make high quality shoes and then dont offer any variation in width - seem to me, to be excluding a great many potential customers from their products.


No question that it (at least theoretically - see below) limits the potential customer base, but on any rational view that is a criticism of the business model rather than the quality of the product. And if the company in question is already struggling to keep up with demand notwithstanding the (relatively) limited width offerings, it's not much of a criticism of their business model, either. Not every shoe manufacturer aspires to the production volume of AE.

On a related point, there already are a number of width offerings from Carmina due to the variety of lasts offered and the significant differences in fit between them. They aren't labeled C, D and E widths as the AE models are, but narrow, standard and wide fittings are most definitely available. I have already encountered lasts that are too narrow and too wide for my feet in a given size.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

my two cents, I also don't buy into the idea that fewer width offerings means less quality. the thing you have to remember with the companies that charge a premium for their shoes is that they're producing fewer numbers than the likes of AE, which is churning them out by the boatload. AE are thus able to cater to individuals with different foot widths. I would venture to guess that significantly more time goes into hand-making an Edward Green shoe (give or take 6 months) and that those individuals who have wide/narrow/large gorilla feet make up a very small niche market.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

RogerP said:


> No question that it (at least theoretically - see below) limits the potential customer base, but on any rational view that is a criticism of the business model rather than the quality of the product.


And if you look at my post...that is what I said. But thanks for pointing out that Carmina offers lasts is built to fit a wider or more narrow foot.


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## AlexS (May 20, 2012)

DG123 said:


> Without any width offerings it is a style brand rather than a quality brand.





RogerP said:


> On a related point, there already are a number of width offerings from Carmina due to the variety of lasts offered and the significant differences in fit between them. They aren't labeled C, D and E widths as the AE models are, but narrow, standard and wide fittings are most definitely available. I have already encountered lasts that are too narrow and too wide for my feet in a given size.


Absolutely correct! Also, Carmina actually does offer different widths in some of their lasts through their MTO program, for example a shoe made in the forest last can definitely be ordered in wide. In my opinion, Carmina is a quality brand.



zzdocxx said:


> Please excuse a piggyback question here but no response on the Women's forum -- any recommendations for makers of women's shoes, something comparable to AE? It's for my mom, she just needs something basic.


Carmina also makes beautiful shoes for women.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Yes, footwear companies positioning themselves as a "premier" brand do have relatively low volume production, small retail distribution etc... However, along with use of top materials, excellent craftmanship, high price points etc.... , a focus on fit should also be regarded. Without proper fit most of the fuinctional benefits of a shoe or boot are eliminated.
As for wdiths being a "niche market". In the USA mens footwear category as a whole for the country the ratio is approximately 55% medium, 35% wide, 10% narrow. There are regional areas , such as Minnesota, Wisconsin, parts of Texas and Lousianna where the percentage of men requiring narrow widths increases up towards 25%. And there are particular regions within the USA , such as New York and New Jersey, which heavily favor wide widths.
For a manufacturer, producing the lasts to make multiple widths is an expense. For a retailer, stocking multiple widths is a considerable expense. My point is that if a brand (or retailer) wants to portray itself as oriented towards "quality" or 'premium product' then it should make good fit a consideration.



gaseousclay said:


> my two cents, I also don't buy into the idea that fewer width offerings means less quality. the thing you have to remember with the companies that charge a premium for their shoes is that they're producing fewer numbers than the likes of AE, which is churning them out by the boatload. AE are thus able to cater to individuals with different foot widths. I would venture to guess that significantly more time goes into hand-making an Edward Green shoe (give or take 6 months) and that those individuals who have wide/narrow/large gorilla feet make up a very small niche market.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

gaseousclay said:


> my two cents, I also don't buy into the idea that fewer width offerings means less quality. the thing you have to remember with the companies that charge a premium for their shoes is that they're producing fewer numbers than the likes of AE, which is churning them out by the boatload. AE are thus able to cater to individuals with different foot widths. I would venture to guess that significantly more time goes into hand-making an Edward Green shoe (give or take 6 months) and that those individuals who have wide/narrow/large gorilla feet make up a very small niche market.


Spot on.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

DG123 said:


> Yes, footwear companies positioning themselves as a "premier" brand do have relatively low volume production, small retail distribution etc... However, along with use of top materials, excellent craftmanship, high price points etc.... , a focus on fit should also be regarded. Without proper fit most of the fuinctional benefits of a shoe or boot are eliminated.
> As for wdiths being a "niche market". In the USA mens footwear category as a whole for the country the ratio is approximately 55% medium, 35% wide, 10% narrow. There are regional areas , such as Minnesota, Wisconsin, parts of Texas and Lousianna where the percentage of men requiring narrow widths increases up towards 25%. And there are particular regions within the USA , such as New York and New Jersey, which heavily favor wide widths.
> For a manufacturer, producing the lasts to make multiple widths is an expense. For a retailer, stocking multiple widths is a considerable expense. My point is that if a brand (or retailer) wants to portray itself as oriented towards "quality" or 'premium product' then it should make good fit a consideration.


There is a variety of lasts, and thus a variety of fits. Last design is more important for fit than width measure, IMO.

What brands would you consider quality shoe makers?

I'm guessing not the Northampton bunch?

With Alden's qc problems and AEs extremely limited last designs, unless you know of makers that I don't, I think we are perhaps left completely without "quality makers" by way of your definition...


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

DG123 said:


> As for wdiths being a "niche market". In the USA mens footwear category as a whole for the country the ratio is approximately 55% medium, 35% wide, 10% narrow. There are regional areas , such as Minnesota, Wisconsin, parts of Texas and Lousianna where the percentage of men requiring narrow widths increases up towards 25%. And there are particular regions within the USA , such as New York and New Jersey, which heavily favor wide widths.


i'm curious, where are you getting your statistics from? The US is also a much larger country than say England, Italy or France, so I don't think it would be too difficult to address varying foot sizes.



> For a manufacturer, producing the lasts to make multiple widths is an expense. For a retailer, stocking multiple widths is a considerable expense. My point is that if a brand (or retailer) wants to portray itself as oriented towards "quality" or 'premium product' then it should make good fit a consideration.


running a business is an expense. producing stock that may or may not sell is a potential loss imo. a lot of the highly lauded brands like EG, Alfred Sargent, G&G, Saint Crispin's, Corthay, C&J, etc., are considered niche brands, and they also make up a very small market share in the US. If I were any of these companies why would I produce X number of narrow or wide shoes with the hopes that an American consumer will buy my goods? Most shoe consumers don't even know who these brands are, let alone are willing to pay the cost associated with these brands. seems like common sense business to me


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

I can't seem to find any Vass shoes in different widths either. 

Dang style brand.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Bjorn said:


> There is a variety of lasts, and thus a variety of fits. Last design is more important for fit than width measure, IMO.


Thank you Bjorn. I wondered how long it would take for someone to mention fit being far more a function of last design than anything else.

In fact, for my feet, I find a much more comfortable fit with several of the lasts used by the Northampton manufacturers than with the rainbow array of sizes and widths offered by the largest US manufacturer (on just about _all _of their lasts - _especially _the 5)... and of course none of that has a whit to do with quality, which is an _entirely _different issue.

I am beginning to wonder whether the member who seems to want to equate quality with variety of width sizing may just be trolling. How is it possible to so thoroughly confuse two completely different issues?


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Various lasts are designed and produced, primarily, as a means to create different shoe model styles. For example, square , rounded, or pointed toe shapes.
In contrast, multiple width lasts are produced for the sole purpose of creating fit options.



Checkerboard 13 said:


> Thank you Bjorn. I wondered how long it would take for someone to mention fit being far more a function of last design than anything else.
> 
> In fact, for my feet, I find a much more comfortable fit with several of the lasts used by the Northampton manufacturers than with the rainbow array of sizes and widths offered by the largest US manufacturer (on just about _all _of their lasts - _especially _the 5)... and of course none of that has a whit to do with quality, which is an _entirely _different issue.
> 
> I am beginning to wonder whether the member who seems to want to equate quality with variety of width sizing may just be trolling. How is it possible to so thoroughly confuse two completely different issues?


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## AlexS (May 20, 2012)

DG123 said:


> Various lasts are designed and produced, primarily, as a means to create different shoe model styles. For example, square , rounded, or pointed toe shapes.
> In contrast, multiple width lasts are produced for the sole purpose of creating fit options.


The last also governs the fit of the shoe. Something to consider: bespoke comes in only one width.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

AlexS said:


> Something to consider: bespoke comes in only one width.


Yes, the customer's.


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## DG123 (Sep 16, 2011)

Made to measure shoes and boots are a separate category from branded production footwear.



AlexS said:


> The last also governs the fit of the shoe. Something to consider: bespoke comes in only one width.


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## Preacher (Jul 5, 2008)

I'll join the chorus of those really liking Carmina shoes. I have at present 4 pair pair of Carmina. Three were made through Epaulet and the last was a MTO I did directly with Carmina. Two pairs are shell (1 in Navy shell and the other in Ruby Shell), one calfskin and suede (bal boot), and the other is all suede. I also have 10+ of AE (suede, calf, and shell) and 9 pair of Aldens (1 calf, 1 suede, and 7 shell). I'll say that since I bought my first pair of Carmina shoes I have not bought another pair of AE or Alden shoes. Carmina quality is way above both of these American Brands. The last Aldens I bought were $712 (Cigar Indy) so for about the same prices (directly through Carmina) or a little more (retailer) I can get a much higher quality shoe.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

DG123 said:


> Various lasts are designed and produced, primarily, as a means to create different shoe model styles. For example, square , rounded, or pointed toe shapes.
> In contrast, multiple width lasts are produced for the sole purpose of creating fit options.


A last has the dual purpose of creating an interior space that will fit the foot, as well as dictating the external appearance of the shoe. 
A well-designed last will produce a shoe that is both comfortable to wear for the intended foot type _and _visually appealing.
Quality shoes are built on well-designed lasts.
Whether or not a huge range of widths are produced has nothing to do with the quality of the shoes.
_All _lasts are designed to fit particular foot types, including lasts for shoes that are produced in multiple widths. (i.e. the AE #5 last is designed for a long, narrow foot.)
Finding a good fit in any manufacturer's shoes is primarily a matter of finding the last which best fits the wearer's foot.

The making of uninformed, dogmatic statements helps neither your own cause, nor that of any person who happens to be reading the forum in hopes of learning.

Perhaps you merely don't understand, but if you _are _trolling, consider this a warning to cease immediately.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

This thread is starting to remind me of the dubious ( do shoe trees actually work?) thread of about a year ago. 

IIRC the poster who was adamantly against shoe trees didn't drop it then either......


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Preacher - I'd love to see some pics of those Carminas. Here is a solo shot of my shell wholecuts:


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## AlexS (May 20, 2012)

There is a great thread over at styleforum describing the different Carmina lasts and how they affect fit, there are options for both the narrow and wide foot:

https://www.styleforum.net/t/204978/the-armoury-official-affiliate-thread/1100_50#post_5221094


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## Preacher (Jul 5, 2008)

Navy Shell MTO Single Monk - Rain Last


Ruby Shell Epaulet MTO - Simpson Last


Snuff Suede Epaulet MTO - Rain Last



Suede/Calf Bal Boot Epaulet MT) - 


I have another pair of Black Scotchgrain Bal Boots on order.


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## TheRomanhistorian (Feb 7, 2010)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> A last has the dual purpose of creating an interior space that will fit the foot, as well as dictating the external appearance of the shoe. A well-designed last will produce a shoe that is both comfortable to wear for the intended foot type _and _visually appealing. Quality shoes are built on well-designed lasts. Whether or not a huge range of widths are produced has nothing to do with the quality of the shoes. _All _lasts are designed to fit particular foot types, including lasts for shoes that are produced in multiple widths. (i.e. the AE #5 last is designed for a long, narrow foot.) Finding a good fit in any manufacturer's shoes is primarily a matter of finding the last which best fits the wearer's foot. The making of uninformed, dogmatic statements helps neither your own cause, nor that of any person who happens to be reading the forum in hopes of learning. Perhaps you merely don't understand, but if you _are _trolling, consider this a warning to cease immediately.


+a lot. Thank you, moderators, for keeping this a useful repository of information rather than dogma.

I just took receipt of a pair of Church's Consuls in walnut calf but these Carminas look simply divine. The suede austerity brogues above are gorgeous and would be great summer shoes with a linen suit. I think you all may have convinced me! Thank you to the OP as well!


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## Chevo (Jan 3, 2013)

Boy, I am learning quite a bit from this thread. And, I mean that in a positive manner.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Thanks Preacher - I have my eye on that exact calf / suede boot. I figure it's a viable path to overcoming my fear of maintaining suede, since it's all on the upper part of the boot. Very handsome indeed. Navy monks are killer.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^A hearty +1 
...regarding the thank-you to preacher for those wonderful pics and a request, as well: Preacher, could provide us with sourcing information on those incredible navy monk straps?


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

for those of you that are interested, if you check the Epaulet x Carmina MTO thread over at styleforum there's discussion of doing a Carmina MTO burnished burgundy austerity brogue in calf. I'd like a burnished burgundy but i'd also like a burnished oak color even more.


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## Preacher (Jul 5, 2008)

My introduction to Carmina was through Epaulet. Mike did a MTO over at SF for the Snuff Suede Austerity Brogues. When I took delivery of them I was blown away by the quality. I then ordered the Suede/Calf Bal boots from another Epaulet MTO project. At first there were only 6 units of ruby shell that was available so I jumped on that MTO as well. Since then there have been numerous make-ups in ruby shell. I really wanted something special though. I found a navy shell Edward Green that I really liked but the price was close to $2K. I contacted Betty (the lady who pretty runs the sales part of Carmina) and asked about getting their single monk made in Navy Shell. I picked the last out and gave here my credit card number and that was it. ABout 6 weeks later they were here. Ironically, with the Euro/Dollar exchange rate the Navy shells cost me slightly less than the shell shoes I purchased from Epaulet and that's with a MTO fee. It's my understanding that the MTO fee has gone up since then. I hope this answers all the questions.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Epaulet would be my go-to source for Carmina if I were in the States. I'm interested in seeing what they finalize for the MTO mentioned above, and if cost and delivery are appealing, I'll likely join in. Having a new Carmine distributor a short walk away from my office in Toronto is definitely going to prove hazardous to my bank account, though.

Here is some more navy monk porn - doubles this time - from Unipair:


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## HalfwayDone (Dec 4, 2012)

RogerP said:


> Epaulet would be my go-to source for Carmina if I were in the States. I'm interested in seeing what they finalize for the MTO mentioned above, and if cost and delivery are appealing, I'll likely join in. Having a new Carmine distributor a short walk away from my office in Toronto is definitely going to prove hazardous to my bank account, though.
> 
> Here is some more navy monk porn - doubles this time - from Unipair:


I need these!:aportnoy:


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## AlexS (May 20, 2012)

Preacher said:


> I'll join the chorus of those really liking Carmina shoes. I have at present 4 pair pair of Carmina. Three were made through Epaulet and the last was a MTO I did directly with Carmina. Two pairs are shell (1 in Navy shell and the other in Ruby Shell), one calfskin and suede (bal boot), and the other is all suede. I also have 10+ of AE (suede, calf, and shell) and 9 pair of Aldens (1 calf, 1 suede, and 7 shell). I'll say that since I bought my first pair of Carmina shoes I have not bought another pair of AE or Alden shoes. Carmina quality is way above both of these American Brands. The last Aldens I bought were $712 (Cigar Indy) so for about the same prices (directly through Carmina) or a little more (retailer) I can get a much higher quality shoe.


While I respect your opinion regarding Alden vs Carmina, I don't agree with it. I find shoes from both companies to be of very high quality. Carmina's shoes are different but not necessary better in my opinion. Carmina's shoes have a more modern and perhaps elegant look with a highly refined finishing, while the Aldens have a more traditional look and a more solid feeling, as if they're built to last forever.


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## Preacher (Jul 5, 2008)

AlexS said:


> While I respect your opinion regarding Alden vs Carmina, I don't agree with it. I find shoes from both companies to be of very high quality. Carmina's shoes are different but not necessary better in my opinion. Carmina's shoes have a more modern and perhaps elegant look with a highly refined finishing, while the Aldens have a more traditional look and a more solid feeling, as if they're built to last forever.


No problem from me. I have shoes from both companies and I wear shoes from both companies. I think Alden does a lot of things well (although QC is not one of them - i've had to send multiple pairs back for repairs or replacement that should have been caught in QC - end rant!). Nobody does LWB like Alden which is why I have several pair (cigar shell, #8 shell, tan suede, and the J. Crew tobacco calf). I also like Alden's boots. To me Alden makes great casual shoes but they struggle in making sleek dress shoes. I'm not sure that they even want to be in that niche. I'll wear my barrie lasted shoes and boots with jeans but i'm in a suit 5-6 times a week and Aldens are just too clunky. Enter Carmina. Their last are sleek, the shoes are as comfortable as Alden if not more so, i've had zero quality issues, and their prices are good. When comparing the shoes side by side I just see things about the Carmina shoes that seem to make me think they are of higher quality. Examples include tighter stitching where the leather is joined, heels that are not separating because they were not glued as well, no plastic hanging out between the welt and the leather, no missed perforations, no silver spots that have to scraped off the shell, and no mismatched color between a pair of shoes. These are all things that have been on Aldens that I have personally owned over the last 2 years. This is why I say Carmina is higher quality.


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## AlexS (May 20, 2012)

Thanks for your insight Preacher. I did a more through examination of two similar captoe balmorals in both brands and I could not identify the differences you mention. I will concede that overall the Carminas appear a bit more uniform and refined, for example a few pieces of the Alden's heel were just so slightly uneven, while the heels of the Carmina pair were as smooth as a baby's bottom, but really these differences appear minor. I think the real test is how long both last after significant wear, which I won't know for a few years as I am new to quality men's shoes. It sounds like you may be in a better position to judge that now.

Regarding general sleekness, no argument there, but I'll just mention that the Hampton and Aberdeen lasts are quite sleek when compared with the Barrie and might pair nicely with a suit.


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## Preacher (Jul 5, 2008)

Hey no problem. I'm not knocking on Alden. I wear my Aldens more than anything else and I love them. In my mind there is no comparison to my Alden cigar Indy boots or my Ravello wingtip boots. Same thing with the LWB. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse (no pun intended) with Alden verses Carmina. Both are good and both have their place. But Aldens are getting expensive. My first two pair were cigar LWB and the Ravello boot and they were priced at $640/$642 and now those same shoes are $730 & $732. I know I can get Crockett and Jones for those prices (and less from pediwear) and depending on the exchange rate they are getting close to Edward Green prices (albeit not for shell). Wear what makes you happy!


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Preacher, while I have far less experience with Alden than you do, your observations as to comparative quality reflect my own.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Indeed and I would emphasize that the finish Alden puts on their various shoe designs does not even come close to the quality, the pure beauty of the finishes on Carmina designs! :devil:


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

HalfwayDone said:


> I need these!:aportnoy:


What, you mean those hideous bondage-wear shoes? :crazy: Just kidding. :tongue2:

I think I need them too, but in saddle or cigar shell.


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## Preacher (Jul 5, 2008)

Here are some shots of various shell shoes.
Top L-R: Alden #8 Captoe boot, Alden Ravello WT boot, Alden cigar Indy, Allen Edmonds Walnut Dalton
Bottom L-R: Carmina Navy single monk, Allen Edmonds #8 Bradley, Alden Cigar LWB, Allen Edmonds Cappachino Dundee


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

^^^ You clearly have a shell problem. :biggrin: I only have the Carmina wholecuts at present in shell, but stumbled upon a killer deal on a pair of AE Townleys in dark brown shell over at SF - they should be shipping out today. And I am planning on a pair of burgundy Carmina shell boots for the fall.


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## Preacher (Jul 5, 2008)

RogerP said:


> ^^^ You clearly have a shell problem. :biggrin: I only have the Carmina wholecuts at present in shell, but stumbled upon a killer deal on a pair of AE Townleys in dark brown shell over at SF - they should be shipping out today. And I am planning on a pair of burgundy Carmina shell boots for the fall.


You are correct! I have several pair that are not pictured. And don't get me started on suede shoes...


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## HalfwayDone (Dec 4, 2012)

RogerP said:


> What, you mean those hideous bondage-wear shoes? :crazy: Just kidding. :tongue2:
> 
> I think I need them too, but in saddle or cigar shell.


Yep, I mean those. It that is bondage, then I don't want to be free!


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## HalfwayDone (Dec 4, 2012)

RogerP said:


> Here is some more navy monk porn - doubles this time - from Unipair:


Just found out these are on their way to...me! :aportnoy:

RogerP, you should ask Unipair for a commission as I would not have seen these if you hadn't posted the pics. :icon_hailthee:


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