# Farewell to the Brothers Brooks



## sgaiii (Jun 7, 2006)

While I have been a member here for some years, I rarely post...but I gotta vent.

My shopping at Brooks Brothers has diminished over the years in direct proportion to the diminishing selection of non-eurotrach clothing. Nonetheless, I will visit the website on occassion to see what's offered. I did so last week and found a "Three-button sack" poplin suit which I thought the discontinued. Moreover, it had pleated pants (which I prefer - it's a southern thing). I ordered it on the spot and it arrived yesterday in all its high-roll three button very darted splendor...vastly different from the picture of the sack jacket with patch pockets on the website. I called Brooks and explained the problem and asked if I could return the jacket only as the pants were fine. Not possible, they said - gotta return the whole thing and they don't even know if they can find me the suit advertised. Aside form the rudeness, which I expect form anyting ordered off a website these days, it was discouraging to me in that in days past, Brooks Brothers would have tried to accomodate a customer when the mistake was their fault.

It was a nice ride while it lasted, Brooks, but Mercer shirts look mighty nice...maybe they will aprreciate my business.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Much had been written here at AAAC about Brooks Brother's.

I'm more on your side of the fence than the defenders of Brooks. While I do lot's of shopping online I have never placed an order on an internet site without first talking to a human being real time. Call me suspicious but one of the first questions I ask is: Is the item I'm ordering exactly as pictured in your ad? (i.e: "I'm looking at a non darted three button sack jacket that says it's 100% poplin cotton made in the USA.")

In your defense however one should not have to do that with a higher end retailer that says it prides itself on service as Brooks Brothers does.

In my opinion when Brooks Brothers says they sell service they actually mean they sell self serving lip service. I deal with too many retailers who sell real personalized customer service. (Try ordering a pair of shoes from Tom Park at Leather Soul in Honolulu and you'll know what I mean)

For this reason I only shop at Brooks Brothers during the deeply discounted sales.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

For this reason I only shop at Brooks Brothers during the deeply discounted sales.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I buy what I need when deeply discounted and I walk out. The staff at the the Madison store are very rude and unwelcoming. I wanted to buy more during their December event but I just needed to get out of there. I felt like I was buying fish in a meat market. 
Their product though have somehow depreciated, but still better than others. They have to seriously work on their customer service. In person and on the phone, most especially.


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

Same thing happen to me, sort of.
Found a retail Poplin sack in a store, but it was not my size. They found one with the same item number in my size at a different store and shipped it to me. A 2 button suit arrived, with a tag on which was the "correct" model number.
:crazy:


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## Solomander (Dec 1, 2008)

I shop at 2 of the smaller Brooks Brothers stores in the NY suburbs. I know 2 salespeople by name at each store. They are helpful and solicitous when I shop there. One of them sends me a mailing in advance of sales to give me a heads up. Once, instead of opening a pocket in a sportscoat that was sewn shut, I opened the seam holding the pocket to the jacket. I took the jacket to BB and explained what happened. They fixed it free of charge while I waited. I don't always love what BB is selling and don't entirely agree with the direction that they have taken over the past few years, but my experience in the stores has been excellent.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

The phone people are pretty good in my experience -- friendly, human, helpful. 

Mad Ave, I don't have much nice to say. Usually I also visit Press only two blocks away, which is always a contrast.


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## Nerev (Apr 25, 2009)

I feel your pain OP, I once ordered a suit from BB for the $10 off from registration, and it was all wrong. Service on the phone was pretty bad, and I guess that their sales associates feel that since they can't see you, you might not be a real person... I told my local BB store about my "anguish," and they said that they would be more than willing to match their online prices if I just print it out. From than on, I never had to pay for shipping, and I pretty much got the best deal.

As for the establishment itself, I think Brooks Brothers is a great starting off point if your budget allows it. It is a physical store with lots of inventory which allows you to try a slew of sizes to find your fit, and a few styles to test how conservative you want to be. I started at BB, my first few suits were from there and most of my current dress slacks, and when I knew exactly what I was looking for and could spot quality product much easier, I moved on. For some of the prices of BB products, you are a few bucks away from some MTM.


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## sgaiii (Jun 7, 2006)

I actually spoke to a customer service rep when I ordered to make sure that the suit was indeed a sack and the pants were indeed pleated which she assured me they were....even though they weren't


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## swb120 (Aug 9, 2005)

Don't give up on Brooks Brothers yet! 

In defense of BB, I think a lot depends upon the store and, most importantly, the experience of the salesmen. 

If I see something I like on BB's website or elsewhere, I always order it through the main store here in Pgh. The salesmen have worked at BB forever, understand exactly what I like (and why), don't blink when I ask about sack suits with flat front pants, inform me of special sales, explain how to purchase sack suits through the byzantine system of BB suit ordering, etc. I had a poplin sack ordered from another store for me...the only one left in their system in my size was in SF. It even had flat-front pants!

Pgh may be more traditional than many other cities...I was told by one of the more experienced staff that they sell more Made in the US, non-non-iron OCBDs than any other store.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Get your money back by any means necessary. That's pretty horrible.


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*My comment - IT COULD BE A LOT WORSE*

Not to make excuses but rather, to try to put things in perspective, consider:

1. Almost all the small local men's apparel shops throughout the country are gone, gone, gone. This means that, for those who do not live near a major city or one of the tiny number of remaining high quality retailers, we have to shop in malls or on-line.

2. the fact that BB has many branches around the country means that there is an alternative to everything else. What do I mean? If you are within driving distance of a BB, ask yourself where you would shop in a brick and mortar store, if they were gone. Do you like the alternatives? Dillards? Nordstrom? Saks? Men's Wearhouse? Jos. A Banks?

3. You can walk into a BB and order an Alden-made shoe in the correct size and width. In many towns there IS no Alden dealer. Whatcha gonna do?

Me, I'm glad they're still in business. I try to help them get better by communicating my expectations and feedback clearly. I'm about to return a pair of chinos that are starting to fray only six and a half months after purchasing them. I'll communicate clearly that everybody else seems to be able to make a pair of pants that will last and last. What's with their material that is causing it to wear so quickly?

I'd rather have BB around than no BB at all!


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Oh what a philosophical matter this can become!

I actually spent almost an hour wandering through the Madison Avenue store today and have to agree that Brooks Brothers has lost the plot in every conceivable way. In their very flagship I've experienced salesmen dressed as slobs, gossiping with one another, giving terrible advice on fit, and griping about other customers.

In addition, the merchandise is becoming more and more like walking through a Macy's. So when I hear arguments that they're better than the mall-ternative I have to think, "for how long?" If all they're doing is making italian style blazers off shore I can find that anywhere. And if I can order genuine Alden's from the NYC store or The Shoemart over the phone with such ease and tremendous service, what do I care about buying a Brooks branded model from a yutz whose sleeve reach to his thumbnails? Isn't there something to be said for giving my money to professionals even if I can't stand in their brick & mortar store personally?

You can walk a few blocks to J.Press and it's like nothing has ever changed. It's salespeople exude the brand, their displays are colorful without being too clever, their service is impeccable, and their advice, in my opinion, has always carried more credibility than most BB salespeople. Not to mention their merchandise has stayed true to its heritage.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want a "modern interpretation of traditional American clothing" you've got Ralph Lauren. If you want the genuine article, you've got Press, O'Connell's, and a handful of other merchants scattered around the country. Brooks simply doesn't fit in and none of its creative stabs at relevance have done much to move the ball.

And finally I'll say that while some might champion its ubiquity as one of the last recommendations of BB's relevance, I'll say that as I've left behind the cheap brands of my youth I've come to revel in the fact that malls hold absolutely nothing of value for me. And if you're buying enough pairs of Alden's that the convenience of being able to order them 10 miles away is really that crucial, chances are you can use your Net Jets membership to grab a pair in person at any of the fine independent retailers who carry them and truly deserve the business!


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

^ Good post in defense of (sorry) the tallest midget

If it weren't for BB's OCBDs -- and okay, their superior contemporary sack blazer -- I wouldn't bother with BB anymore. O'Connells is so much better product-wise and service-wise.

(Has anyone else had the experience of requesting must-iron OCBDs at a Brooks store? You might as well have farted audibly.)

Understandably, BB has to consider their market (like any giant corporate robot), and trads aren't a significant part of it. So...I really try to support not the robot but the human guys.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Trip English is on the money here. Anyone who, like myself, has shopped at BB since around 1960 is appaled by many of the current offerings, both quality and style. J. Press has kept the faith; reward them.


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## WindsorNot (Aug 7, 2009)

Joe Beamish said:


> O'Connells is so much better product-wise and service-wise.
> 
> 
> > This might be true in general, but O'Connells can't touch Brooks when Brooks is shopped right (discounts/sales/clearances).
> ...


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## roman totale XVII (Sep 18, 2009)

I was in the city today and visited 346 and, for the first time, ventured into J Press.

BB did feel like a large Macy's PRL concession in comparison to Press. That said, I don't have too much to hold against BB. I'm with Markus, I'd much rather they were around than not.

I was only window shopping today, but when I return in a couple of weeks, I think I'll be spending more at Press.



> (Has anyone else had the experience of requesting must-iron OCBDs at a Brooks store? You might as well have farted audibly.)


It is great the way they are hidden away on the back wall, while the rest of the store is awash with the non-iron crap...


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## Markus (Sep 14, 2004)

*I'll try it again. I'm not talking to anybody who can step into a J. Press.*

My comment above was intended to address the pitiable situation of trads who do not have the convenience of any halfway decent men's clothing store. For several periods in my life, this was my situation.

And if you want to shop on-line, be my guest. I'm not naysaying the convenience of calling O'Connell's or the Andover shop or J. Press or Shoemart, for heaven's sake.

I'm simply saying that, for the vast majority who do not live near a major city where alternatives are available, and who do not want to shop on-line, BB is a welcome relief. And, regarding terrible experiences shopping in BB, well, you are making a generalization that may or may not match the experience of others. Not all service in all BB locations is poor. In some stores they try to do a superlative job.


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## chacend (Mar 4, 2008)

The only thing that keeps me shopping at Brooks more than JPress is that they make a superior quality OCBD that can generally be purchased for about 40% less when purchased in quantity and the fact that they make the only non-iron  dress shirts (not OCBDs I can't stand non-iron OCBDs) I'll wear and I also like cordovan Aldens during the semi-annual. Just about everything else is better at J Press.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Markus said:


> My comment above was intended to address the pitiable situation of trads who do not have the convenience of any halfway decent men's clothing store. For several periods in my life, this was my situation.
> 
> And if you want to shop on-line, be my guest. I'm not naysaying the convenience of calling O'Connell's or the Andover shop or J. Press or Shoemart, for heaven's sake.
> 
> I'm simply saying that, for the vast majority who do not live near a major city where alternatives are available, and who do not want to shop on-line, BB is a welcome relief. And, regarding terrible experiences shopping in BB, well, you are making a generalization that may or may not match the experience of others. Not all service in all BB locations is poor. In some stores they try to do a superlative job.


I understand exactly what you're saying: If I live in the middle of sartorial nowhere I'm better off with Brooks Brothers than without. To which I would say: barely.

I say this, as I mentioned above, after a day where I spent time wandering what is arguably the most BB merchandise currently assembled in one place and if you were to pull the labels off everything there's be very little to distinguish it from Belk, Macy's, Bloomingdales, or whatever mid-level mall anchor happens to be nearby. Traditional cuts and classic cotton are so few and far between even with multiple floors of merchandise that they may as well be another "Classic American Brand: Founded 2005" the likes of which litters the racks at department stores. You can find madras, reds, chinos, etc EVERYWHERE!

If all you need are types of slacks, blazers, and suits that BB sells I defy you to show me a mall that doesn't provide 80% or better of the same type of merchandise by other makers. It's really just the name and the heritage that keep people hanging on, but it's getting further away every year.


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## Enron (Feb 16, 2010)

Trip English said:


> I understand exactly what you're saying: If I live in the middle of sartorial nowhere I'm better off with Brooks Brothers than without. To which I would say: barely.
> 
> I say this, as I mentioned above, after a day where I spent time wandering what is arguably the most BB merchandise currently assembled in one place and if you were to pull the labels off everything there's be very little to distinguish it from Belk, Macy's, Bloomingdales, or whatever mid-level mall anchor happens to be nearby. Traditional cuts and classic cotton are so few and far between even with multiple floors of merchandise that they may as well be another "Classic American Brand: Founded 2005" the likes of which litters the racks at department stores. You can find madras, reds, chinos, etc EVERYWHERE!
> 
> If all you need are types of slacks, blazers, and suits that BB sells I defy you to show me a mall that doesn't provide 80% or better of the same type of merchandise by other makers. It's really just the name and the heritage that keep people hanging on, but it's getting further away every year.


Eh, ill take a BB polo over RL or whoever any day of the week.


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## BrooksMan (Feb 20, 2010)

Trip English said:


> I understand exactly what you're saying: If I live in the middle of sartorial nowhere I'm better off with Brooks Brothers than without. To which I would say: barely.
> 
> I say this, as I mentioned above, after a day where I spent time wandering what is arguably the most BB merchandise currently assembled in one place and if you were to pull the labels off everything there's be very little to distinguish it from Belk, Macy's, Bloomingdales, or whatever mid-level mall anchor happens to be nearby. Traditional cuts and classic cotton are so few and far between even with multiple floors of merchandise that they may as well be another "Classic American Brand: Founded 2005" the likes of which litters the racks at department stores. You can find madras, reds, chinos, etc EVERYWHERE!
> 
> If all you need are types of slacks, blazers, and suits that BB sells I defy you to show me a mall that doesn't provide 80% or better of the same type of merchandise by other makers. It's really just the name and the heritage that keep people hanging on, but it's getting further away every year.


Perhaps what you are seeing is other retailers attempts to mimic the classics stylings of Brooks Brothers. I dare say when J.Crew, Macy's and the like are done selling madras and chinos, you will still find them at Brooks.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

Brooks Made in Canada wool Dress Pants are excellent value, I think.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

I purchase a few items from BB, both at the B&M store and online. I am glad they are still around, since the do have some items worth purchasing.

I don't think BB will ever be what it once was, but I am holding out hope that they may at least offer some suits with natural shoulders. I find that I prefer the cut of their sack to that of Press. 

The internet has really become my retailer of choice. I discovered Press, O'Connells and Mercer all through AAAT. I can pick up the phone or place an order through the website for what I want.


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## Zon Jr. (May 20, 2009)

I would bet that even in the Golden Age no one ever said anything good about Brooks. Not a big enough selection, prices too high, nothing new or interesting, sales staff want to be aristocrats, don't know as much as I do, too inconvenient to get to the city, etc. 

It always looks better looking back.


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## Enron (Feb 16, 2010)

The service in both the Lenox and Perimeter BBs in Atlanta is phenomenal. Lenox especially.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

To be fair, I've gotten great service at several BBs, including my local Greenwich store. My concern is that it's heading toward the Jos. A Banks end of the spectrum.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Trip English said:


> To be fair, I've gotten great service at several BBs, including my local Greenwich store. My concern is that it's heading toward the Jos. A Banks end of the spectrum.


I agree, it's not so much the service as the quality of so much of the stuff offered; JAB indeed! Again, my perpective is from one who started at BB in 1960; the difference largely came when they expanded so much. Nowhere near the same quality in anything but shoes and underwear/ pajamas.


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## Bermuda (Aug 16, 2009)

I have to say that last time I was in the Madison 346 store the sales clerk was very strange and flamboyantly feminine....quite awkward


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## WindsorNot (Aug 7, 2009)

AldenPyle said:


> Brooks Made in Canada wool Dress Pants are excellent value, I think.


Indeed. I have a few pair and they are exceptional; made with Loro Piana wool.


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## pkprd869 (Jul 7, 2009)

I have mixed results with BB. The phone and internet reps were very courteous and helpful. The Oakbrook store is still ok. The top rep there is knowledgeable. Now the flagship in the city on Mich made me feel like a red-headed step child. I got ignored for some hipsters in skinny low rise jeans, wrinkled up shirts, and beat up canvas laptop bags. The most painful part I was wearing BB chinos and OCBD.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Bermuda said:


> I have to say that last time I was in the Madison 346 store the sales clerk was very strange and flamboyantly feminine....quite awkward


As long as he gave good customer service, what does it matter?


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

Service here in Baltimore is good. I know a couple of the salespeople.

As far as not being able to return the suit jacket...I don't think that is unreasonable. The suit is made and sold as a single item, asking to split it up is asking them to basically give you the pants for free.

The fact that they sent the wrong item is pretty bad though.

Anyway, as I see it, Brooks is ok...although I agree that the offerings have been uninspiring the last 2 years. 3 or 4 years ago were some good seasons though.

Danny


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## PeterSawatzky (Feb 20, 2009)

The only retail BB store I've bought from was in Edinburgh, and I had great service. But I'm not a retail guy anyway. I stick to thrift stores and eBay for almost everything. I don't really care about the present state of BB because most of my BB stuff is vintage.


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## Chi (Feb 15, 2009)

I wrote Brooks Brothers off in 1994. I had two different suits that developed holes in the seats. I am very, very gentle on my clothes, the holes were the result of poor quality. I never gave them my business after that experience, and never will.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Chi: same here, only with shirts -- sad, but they had a great run.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Guess I must be from another planet but, I cannot recall ever having what could be considered a really bad experience in any of the Chicago area BB stores or their outlets (or in BB stores in other locations I have had occasion to visit!). Admittedly, BB has never been my "go-to"source for suits but, I have purchased a whole lot of blazers, sport coats, odd trousers, shirts, sweaters and accessories from them over a good many years. Yes, one does occasionally run into what might be considered a stuffy sales associate, generally a newbie and it doesn't happen very often, and occasionally a purchase may have been found to be flawed. However, even on those occassions, BB has literally jumped through hoops, to make it right. I have been a bit disappointed recently to see so many of their offerings being outsourced for off-shore production but, alas, such seems the way business in being done these days.

Have I been missing something? Must I replace my rose colored glasses?


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## Tremont 974 (Jul 16, 2008)

I've had what I consider very good service at BB (multiple locations) for years.


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

I know its a 346 experience, but I still called corporate and they were equally as rude:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=102386&highlight=346+Presidents+Day+Sale


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## Epaminondas (Oct 19, 2009)

Jovan said:


> As long as he gave good customer service, what does it matter?


You may be comfortable with someone like that taking your inseam. I'd, personally, avoid it.


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

Complaints about BB's merchandise and/or service pop up here, reliably, every couple of months or so.

The simple fact of the matter is that if BB were still like J Press, it'd be only as big as J Press with stores in maybe half a dozen cities. BB has chosen to expand beyond that, and consequently they've had to branch out from their tradly look. That look was, in itself, just a few-decades-long phase in BB's much longer history. BB _became_ tradly when tradly was popular, and they did it well enough to be known as one of the arbiters of that style. Now that that style has passed out of the mainstream of American culture, BB has evolved again to serve their customers' needs. BB is a retailer, one with remarkable staying power and consistency over time. But all things must change to survive, and BB is no exception.

As to service, any company that grows to the size BB has with scores of stores will have widely varying levels of customer service from store to store, employee to employee, and day to day. If you want generally good-to-excellent service, BB can fulfill that. But if you want perfect service every time, a multi-million dollar international retailer probably isn't where you should be shopping.


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## Desk Jockey (Aug 19, 2005)

Epaminondas said:


> You may be comfortable with someone like that taking your inseam. I'd, personally, avoid it.


I feel it necessary to point out that if someone measures your inseam it's solely due to you having asked for it; outseam (top of waistband to bottom of cuff less the rise) is how one would go about finding your inseam.

Also, poor form, dude.


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## BrooksMan (Feb 20, 2010)

Orgetorix said:


> Complaints about BB's merchandise and/or service pop up here, reliably, every couple of months or so.
> 
> The simple fact of the matter is that if BB were still like J Press, it'd be only as big as J Press with stores in maybe half a dozen cities. BB has chosen to expand beyond that, and consequently they've had to branch out from their tradly look. That look was, in itself, just a few-decades-long phase in BB's much longer history. BB _became_ tradly when tradly was popular, and they did it well enough to be known as one of the arbiters of that style. Now that that style has passed out of the mainstream of American culture, BB has evolved again to serve their customers' needs. BB is a retailer, one with remarkable staying power and consistency over time. But all things must change to survive, and BB is no exception.
> 
> As to service, any company that grows to the size BB has with scores of stores will have widely varying levels of customer service from store to store, employee to employee, and day to day. If you want generally good-to-excellent service, BB can fulfill that. But if you want perfect service every time, a multi-million dollar international retailer probably isn't where you should be shopping.


Well said...I would also add that Brooks has lived through several owners for the past three decades. Most of which have simply looked at Brooks as a means to an end. The current owners really seems to want to build upon the company's heritage, something that is not done overnight. I see a distinct and improved difference in the stores today from what I saw in the 80's and 90's.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

sgaiii said:


> While I have been a member here for some years, I rarely post...but I gotta vent.
> 
> My shopping at Brooks Brothers has diminished over the years in direct proportion to the diminishing selection of non-eurotrach clothing. Nonetheless, I will visit the website on occassion to see what's offered. I did so last week and found a "Three-button sack" poplin suit which I thought the discontinued. Moreover, it had pleated pants (which I prefer - it's a southern thing). I ordered it on the spot and it arrived yesterday in all its high-roll three button very darted splendor...vastly different from the picture of the sack jacket with patch pockets on the website. I called Brooks and explained the problem and asked if I could return the jacket only as the pants were fine. Not possible, they said - gotta return the whole thing and they don't even know if they can find me the suit advertised. Aside form the rudeness, which I expect form anyting ordered off a website these days, it was discouraging to me in that in days past, Brooks Brothers would have tried to accomodate a customer when the mistake was their fault.
> 
> It was a nice ride while it lasted, Brooks, but Mercer shirts look mighty nice...maybe they will aprreciate my business.


I'll agree that it's quite annoying to order one thing and receive something else.

However, it seems they were willing to refund your purchase, but you wanted to send PART of the order back for some kind of partial refund? That's a fairly unreasonable request - what are they supposed to do with the now-pantless suit they've taken back?

Would you buy a shirt and say "hmmm, I like these buttons, but not the shirt itself - I think I'l just cut the buttons off and return the fabric"?

I fail to see how this is an indictment of BB's customer service!

DH


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

sgaiii said:


> While I have been a member here for some years, I rarely post...but I gotta vent.
> 
> My shopping at Brooks Brothers has diminished over the years in direct proportion to the diminishing selection of non-eurotrach clothing. Nonetheless, I will visit the website on occassion to see what's offered. I did so last week and found a "Three-button sack" poplin suit which I thought the discontinued. Moreover, it had pleated pants (which I prefer - it's a southern thing). I ordered it on the spot and it arrived yesterday in all its high-roll three button very darted splendor...vastly different from the picture of the sack jacket with patch pockets on the website. I called Brooks and explained the problem and asked if I could return the jacket only as the pants were fine. Not possible, they said - gotta return the whole thing and they don't even know if they can find me the suit advertised. Aside form the rudeness, which I expect form anyting ordered off a website these days, it was discouraging to me in that in days past, Brooks Brothers would have tried to accomodate a customer when the mistake was their fault.
> 
> It was a nice ride while it lasted, Brooks, but Mercer shirts look mighty nice...maybe they will aprreciate my business.


I'm very sorry you were treated so badly, and agree with many others that a full refund is required.

Brooks is workling hard at becoming as relevant to classic style as Abercrombie and Fitch, a face-less conglomeration of the worst and dumbest retail practices. When they have finsihed ****ing all over their brand equity and lose much of their core business to better retailers, they will explain that their problems are entirely the product of unforseeable circumstance.


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

Dhaller said:


> I'll agree that it's quite annoying to order one thing and receive something else.
> 
> However, it seems they were willing to refund your purchase, but you wanted to send PART of the order back for some kind of partial refund? That's a fairly unreasonable request - what are they supposed to do with the now-pantless suit they've taken back?
> 
> ...


+1.

And saying they can't guarantee the suit you saw is still available appears to be an example of "telling the truth" rather than "being rude".


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Epaminondas said:


> You may be comfortable with someone like that taking your inseam. I'd, personally, avoid it.


Oh, lord...

I feel compelled to say, once again, that just because a man likes other men doesn't mean he's going to like YOU. Also, it doesn't mean he'll be stupid enough to take advantage of his position. Be real.



Desk Jockey said:


> I feel it necessary to point out that if someone measures your inseam it's solely due to you having asked for it; outseam (top of waistband to bottom of cuff less the rise) is how one would go about finding your inseam.
> 
> Also, poor form, dude.


Agreed.


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## sgaiii (Jun 7, 2006)

"but you wanted to send PART of the order back for some kind of partial refund? That's a fairly unreasonable request - what are they supposed to do with the now-pantless suit they've taken back?"

Perhaps my comment was not clear, I wanted to return the jacket in exhange for the correct jacket.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

sgaiii said:


> Nonetheless, I will visit the website on occassion to see what's offered. I did so last week and found a "Three-button sack" poplin suit which I thought the discontinued. Moreover, it had pleated pants (which I prefer - it's a southern thing).


Is this the suit?

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...lor=KHAKI&sort_by=&sectioncolor=&sectionsize=

I'm surprised by this offering -- has BB offered a sack with pleated trousers before? I know one could mix and match pleated trousers with 3/2 sack jackets back when the Brooksease separates was a robust program, but I'm not familiar with nested sack suits coming with pleated trousers.

W/r/t returning just the jacket for a replacement, in BB's mind breaking up two nested suits to create one suit is a high cost. Also, the fabrics might not match since one nested suit (the high-roll three) might have been made in a different factory than the other (the 3/2 sack).


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

I'd bet my username that is a mistake on the website. Pleats with high-roll 3 button, plain with 3 button sack. 

I don't think Brooks has ever offered a suit (not a seperates program, as Tali states above) where the jacket was a sack and the trousers were pleated, at least not in the recent history. 

Agree with the others that asking Brooks to break up a suit is an unreasonable request. 

Not an excuse to treat you badly, though.

JB


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## sgnt13 (Nov 11, 2009)

To those who complain about the service at Brooks Brothers stores- and then admit that you are an occasional, at best, in-store customer, a word of advice. Good, personal, service and recognition - at ALL retail establishments, country clubs, good restaurants, hotels, and like places - takes familiarity. My first experience in a Brooks Brothers store was far from stellar, I only bought a $15 key chain and the associate (whose name was Bernice- I bet you can imagine what she looks like) made me feel like I was wasting her time. I soldiered on, however, and can happily say that when I walk in the store, I am acknowledged by name by many of the sales staff and made to feel very at home. Mind you, I am by no means a big spender. Pop in often, greet them and remember their names, inquire after their health, and I can assure you the same will be returned to you.


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## Pundit (May 14, 2008)

Joe Beamish said:


> (Has anyone else had the experience of requesting must-iron OCBDs at a Brooks store? You might as well have farted audibly.)


Last time I requested a must iron pinpoint oxford shirt the SA had to run to the basement to fetch their offerings -- said space limitations made it so...


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

As many previous posters have mentioned, many of our issues with service at Brooks Brothers pertain to the fact that the company has expanded a great deal, and thus has a large variety of salespeople--some excellent, some less-than-excellent. In the Newbury Street Brooks in Boston, there are folks who have worked there for decades and decades, and they tend to be both helpful and knowledgeable. Others, not so much.

I was just in the Madison Avenue Brooks yesterday, in part to see whether I noticed the issues with service others have detected. And, to be honest, I did: the salespeople there seemed to resemble sharks, desperate merely to ensnare as much commission as possible. I got the sense that buying something would help them far more than it would please me--and the salespeople didn't really care about this perception. The staff is obviously on heavy commission, but, unlike at nearby Press, I noticed a tense and unpleasant feeling there, as if the staff was almost totally open about their hopes that you'll buy a pile of stuff as quickly as possible and then just get out of their hair.

This is not, I think, a good way to do business. But, hey, Brooks seems to be doing pretty well these days, despite our complaints!


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

One relevant note: in the last year, BB has changed their commission structure, meaning that sales associates rely more on commission for their income and get a larger portion of each sale. 

That's probably a big part of why you're seeing more "sharks" than before.


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## philidor (Nov 19, 2009)

> In addition, the merchandise is becoming more and more like walking through a Macys.


I don't like Macys either. However, they have Lacoste and Ralph Lauren, which are still good brands. Although on the whole Macys isn't that great.



> And if I can order genuine Alden's from the NYC store or The Shoemart over the phone with such ease and tremendous service, what do I care about buying a Brooks branded model from a yutz whose sleeve reach to his thumbnails? Isn't there something to be said for giving my money to professionals even if I can't stand in their brick & mortar store personally?


Sleeves reaching his thumbnails?! Brooks Brothers should know better! Didn't they tell him to get some tailoring done? Every little kid knows that your sleeve should go a little past your jacket sleeve. Did he have on a polyester tie?



> You can walk a few blocks to J.Press and it's like nothing has ever changed. It's salespeople exude the brand, their displays are colorful without being too clever, their service is impeccable, and their advice, in my opinion, has always carried more credibility than most BB salespeople. Not to mention their merchandise has stayed true to its heritage.


Don't forget that Brooks Brothers now has a parent company. J.Press has always been good.



> As far as I'm concerned, if you want a "modern interpretation of traditional American clothing" you've got Ralph Lauren. If you want the genuine article, you've got Press, O'Connell's, and a handful of other merchants scattered around the country. Brooks simply doesn't fit in and none of its creative stabs at relevance have done much to move the ball.


Remember Brooks Brothers "Madmen" gimmick?


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

philidor said:


> Don't forget that Brooks Brothers now has a parent company. J.Press has always been good.


THIS JUST IN!!!!!!!

I assume by "now has a parent company" you are referring to the 1946 acquisition of Brooks Brothers by Garfinckle, marking its first non-family owners? And in more recent developments, J. Press has had a parent company by the name of Onward Kashiyama of Japan since about 1985. Other than that you're right up to date!


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## chacend (Mar 4, 2008)

Brooksfan said:


> THIS JUST IN!!!!!!!
> 
> I assume by "now has a parent company" you are referring to the 1946 acquisition of Brooks Brothers by Garfinckle, marking its first non-family owners? And in more recent developments, J. Press has had a parent company by the name of Onward Kashiyama of Japan since about 1985. Other than that you're right up to date!


Perhaps he should have said they have "another new" parent company. I truly hope the recent acquisition of Southwick doesn't turn them into another sackless (pun intended) wonder.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

sgnt13 said:


> To those who complain about the service at Brooks Brothers stores- and then admit that you are an occasional, at best, in-store customer, a word of advice. Good, personal, service and recognition - at ALL retail establishments, country clubs, good restaurants, hotels, and like places - takes familiarity. My first experience in a Brooks Brothers store was far from stellar, I only bought a $15 key chain and the associate (whose name was Bernice- I bet you can imagine what she looks like) made me feel like I was wasting her time. I soldiered on, however, and can happily say that when I walk in the store, I am acknowledged by name by many of the sales staff and made to feel very at home. Mind you, I am by no means a big spender. Pop in often, greet them and remember their names, inquire after their health, and I can assure you the same will be returned to you.


I heartily disagree. I know for a _fact_, working in retail, that it doesn't take much effort to make a customer feel welcomed. It shouldn't matter whether they frequently come back. An employee who does anything less simply isn't trying.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

Zon Jr. said:


> I would bet that even in the Golden Age no one ever said anything good about Brooks. Not a big enough selection, prices too high, nothing new or interesting, sales staff want to be aristocrats, don't know as much as I do, too inconvenient to get to the city, etc.
> 
> It always looks better looking back.


No kidding.

If things are as bad as some seem to think, all my clothes could disintegrate at any moment: Brook's OCBD is not as good as the old one, Florsheim's Kenmoor turned to complete garbage as soon as it was made in India, today's Topsider is junk, you can't find a decent tie made in the USA anymore, etc, etc. Well, my BB OCBD's are the best I can find for the money, my Kenmoor's are not only well made (according to my cobbler) but also the best value in welted shoes, I've never had a boatshoe last more than 18 months, and I have a closet full of excellent american silk.

I've been satisfied with the few BB products I own. I think they are as good or superior to their competitors at the same price. Customer service is another matter. I would wager that for every bad experience there is a good one. But I don't expect much customer service when I buy something at discount or online - although Land's End is a big exception to that rule.


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## chiamdream (Aug 7, 2009)

Not a great experience at the Michigan Avenue store over the weekend. I went in armed with the corporate card and the intention of springing for three OCBDs once I figured out whether to go with the slim fit/extra slim fit/traditional fit. This thread prepared me to have low expectations, but, wow, it was like pulling teeth to get anyone to help me with anything in there - I was snubbed by the apparent senior salesperson, who really went out of his way to avoid my attempts at eye contact to attend to other (older) customers until I eventually cornered him at the cash register. I don't get it - I'm not a 17-year-old skater moping in the shadows. It didn't help my perception that I'd just come from J.Crew where the sales staff had gone out of their way to accomodate my and be cordial - in a much busier spot, I might add.

I had assumed that a flagship store like this one would have a representative selection of their shirt offerings, but that wasn't the case. There were no extra slim fits to be found, and only three colors (blue, blue uni stripe, white) of the slim fit. I'll just deal with the website from now on - and only when the discounts kick in (I did like the fit of the shirts). Ralph Lauren's getting my suit money the next time an occasion presents itself.


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## ctt (Dec 24, 2008)

chiamdream said:


> Not a great experience at the Michigan Avenue store over the weekend. I went in armed with the corporate card and the intention of springing for three OCBDs once I figured out whether to go with the slim fit/extra slim fit/traditional fit.


Same experiences here. The store in the Rookery building seems to be a much better store.


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

Markus said:


> I'm simply saying that, for the vast majority who do not live near a major city where alternatives are available, and who do not want to shop on-line, BB is a welcome relief. And, regarding terrible experiences shopping in BB, well, you are making a generalization that may or may not match the experience of others. Not all service in all BB locations is poor. In some stores they try to do a superlative job.


This point deserves to be emphasized. I can see why someone who lives in a major metro area, where there are still a significant number of real men's clothing stores, might feel that there are better alternatives, but the US is a big country, and lots of people live far away from the major metro areas.

There are a lot of secondary markets, such as where I live, that have very few outlets for quality clothes and service. Despite the fact that Nashville hosts one of the richest suburbs in the country, Nashvillians as a group take shabby dress to a dismal low. It's a chicken-egg thing - if there's no demand for nice clothes, there won't be places that sell nice clothes. If there's no place to buy nice clothes, people buy stuff at the local malls.

In this area, once you get above the generic Chinese-made "which-brand-label-is-in-it-this-week?" mall fodder, you've got a choice between two businesses that fall into the "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford to shop here" boutique category, or Brooks Brothers.

Fortunately, the local Brooks Brothers provides a high level of service, and the tailoring staff is top-notch. In some respects service is better than the bigger of the two boutiques, and the pricing is certainly better, especially with sales and discount cards.

If it weren't for Brooks Brothers, the level of dressiness in fly-over country would probably be much, much worse than it already is. So a little bit of hate for Brooks Brothers is OK, but don't hate on them too much, because your country cousins need Brooks Brothers - otherwise, we'll be forced to go back to overalls and barn boots.


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## 88 Pelican (Dec 8, 2008)

It seems like every 6 weeks there is a thread on here decrying the state of Brooks Brothers, and frankly, I don't get it.

Admittedly, I can't look back to the Brooks Brothers of the 60s and 70s for a comparison, but I get phenomenal service every time I walk into the Brooks Brothers in Boston. The quality of the product may not always be as great as it was, or as great as I want it to be, but it certainly exceeds that of the stores in the mall, and I have yet to encounter the poor quality or shoddy service described here on the forum.

I'm fortunate enough to have J. Press and other options, and while I do trek across the river to Harvard Square a couple of time a year to see what they have, Brooks is still my go to store for most of my wardrobe. And while the staff at J. Press is undeniably knowledgeable, I don't find them especially helpful to customers they don't know, particularly, it seems, to those of us under a certain age.


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## pkprd869 (Jul 7, 2009)

BB usually has something every season to catch my eye. And their offerings are usually very good quality. And during events like the 25% Corporate sale or the Friends and Family it's a good value. 

Every store is going to be different. The flag ship on Michigan Ave treated me like a child that belonged under the stairs. Even though I was wearing their clothes when I entered. The smaller store in Oakbrook has always been very helpful. It's the first one I entered, and I was wearing jeans and my White Sox hat. I just said I needed some chinos and a couple shirts I saw online and they helped me right away and were very polite.


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## Luckycharmboi2 (May 30, 2009)

*In defense of Brooks Brothers*

I still really like Brooks Brothers, and beyond the mere OCBDs (though I have many of them, and they are the best). I will admit most of Brooks suits are darted and/or cut in a more european style than American trad purists like, but they still have a few suits or sportcoats in 3/2 sacks pretty much at all times. The majority of their suits are still made in US or Canada (getting much more rare, and certainly not seen anywhere at JAB, Macy's, etc and not very often at Nordstrom) Sadly, most of the summer suits and sportcoats (typically sold at a lower pricepoint) are now being made in Asia (Thailand mostly, and the occasional China unfortunately).

While Brooks merchandise can be a little pricey at full price, Let's be honest, Brooks has some amazing prices on clearance. And except for the occasional item I really really like at Brooks, I rarely pay complete full price, and often 25-50% off on a of stuff.

However, Brooks still carries a lot of US made merchandise. Much more than most other men's stores with the exception of Press. Their ties are a great deal, and virtually all are made in US (except the knitted ties which are always made in Italy). And, their ties are good quality at a decent price.

Besides Alden, Brooks sells decent quality English shoes, which are deeply discounted a couple times a year. While many of the styles can be found at pediwear or herring, it is a bit of a hassle ordering abroad, and for those of us who really need to try on shoes before buying them for fit, Brooks is a much better option than ordering blind from pediwear.

Brooks sweaters, especially the shetlands and cashmeres, are made of high quality woolens, and are offered in great patterns. I always like these.

Brooks luxury/country club line of sportshirts are some of my favorites. While they are a little spendy when full price, they can often be found on sale or clearance. These are my staple shirts for around the office when I don't need to wear a suit. Many are still made in the US of high quality cloth.

While Brooks may be branching out to a more "contemporary" look than most of the members like, there is still some good quality, pure, American trad merchandise. I have always found the quality of Brooks merchandise, even the stuff made in Asia, to be higher quality than what passes for "average" in the US. I am rarely disappointed with Brooks quality, although I have been a couple of times. And while I regret that they are making some of their slacks, sportcoats and summer suits in Asia (and the Irish linen shirts in China, damn it!!!), it is still a much better bet than most places for U.S. or Canadian made clothing. I admit being a bit of a snob about stuff from SE Asia/China. Honestly, snobbery aside, I can't say I've found their items from SE Asia to be of objectively lower quality than most of their merchandise.

So, I will keep on shopping regularly at Brooks. WHile such words may be sacreligious around here, I genuinely like a lot of Brooks merchandise, and receive compliments on many of the items I purchase there. And, let's be honest, anyone on this site enjoys being known as a little bit of a "dandy."

David.


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## katon (Dec 25, 2006)

It could be worse. Still not a bad place to get 3 1/2" and 2 7/8" English repp ties, U.S. OCBDs, English leather goods, Scottish cashmere sweaters, or the occasional one-off item (Like a BB #1 stripe umbrella, for instance).


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Luckycharmboi2 said:


> I admit being a bit of a snob about stuff from SE Asia/China. Honestly, snobbery aside, I can't say I've found their items from SE Asia to be of objectively lower quality than most of their merchandise.


I've had QC issues w/ Chinese-made shirts and tailored clothing as well (I assume we are focusing purely on quality issues here and not on the separate question of whether one should have moral or political objections to buying things not made in the USA), but I now own three BB tweed jackets and a BB chesterfield overcoat that were made in China (the tweeds are made of British fabrics and the c'field of an Italian-woven wool/cashmere herringbone), and they are in terms of cut, construction, and overall tailoring absolutely the equal of any of my many US-made or Italian-made BB tailored garments.

This surprised me at the time--I remember my shock when I stumbled across the c'field on the racks at 346 Mad Ave in the fall of '07--given my past bad experiences with Chinese-made clothing. But whoever BB is working with in China really does know how to put together a tailored garment--the proof is hanging in my closet.


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## Grenadier (Dec 24, 2008)

I'm wondering just what is so inherently wrong with Brooks Brothers updating its image and moving beyond a 1940s trad image. I don't hear anyone complaining that Brooks Brothers is inauthentic because they no longer make frock coats and other 19th century clothing. The comparison makes itself.


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## heimskringla (Nov 2, 2008)

azlawstudent said:


> I'm wondering just what is so inherently wrong with Brooks Brothers updating its image and moving beyond a 1940s trad image. I don't hear anyone complaining that Brooks Brothers is inauthentic because they no longer make frock coats and other 19th century clothing. The comparison makes itself.


Brooks Brothers was one of the last bastions of "tradliness." It's sad to see something that you've grown up with, and seen at least two generations of men in your family wear, change so drastically.

Brooks is great for many things, but they're very definitely moving away from the 3/r2 sack jackets.

I don't want to embrace the nippy Euro suits with the darts and high gorges. I grew up dressing in a manner that was stylish yet understated; Brooks used to exemplify that style.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

^ You explained it best.


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## JakeLA (Oct 30, 2006)

I stopped by the flagship in Beverly Hills today for the sale. I wasn't expecting much in the way of must-iron shirts (and in fact they didn't have any at all), but damned if they didn't even have _non-iro_n OCBDs. At least not in slim-fit or regular. What the hell? The salesperson said they only carry pinpoints; in fact when I asked if I could get OCBDs online (I like to play dumb sometimes) he shrugged and said maybe, he didn't know. Sheesh. Maybe the Asian tourists who make up 90 percent of the store's clientele have an aversion to oxford cloth?


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## dport86 (Jan 24, 2009)

JakeLA said:


> I stopped by the flagship in Beverly Hills today for the sale. I wasn't expecting much in the way of must-iron shirts (and in fact they didn't have any at all), but damned if they didn't even have _non-iro_n OCBDs. At least not in slim-fit or regular. What the hell? The salesperson said they only carry pinpoints; in fact when I asked if I could get OCBDs online (I like to play dumb sometimes) he shrugged and said maybe, he didn't know. Sheesh. Maybe the Asian tourists who make up 90 percent of the store's clientele have an aversion to oxford cloth?


I was in the Rodeo Drive store yesterday for an hour, and I stop by whenever I have business in Beverly Hills, which is pretty regularly. I must say, I have never seen an Asian tourist in the BH Brooks Brothers.

I've seen talent agents, lawyers and Beverly Hills types. Even a few mall-type shoppers. And one Asian-American in Made to Measure. I even saw Kanye West once (but he shopping for Black Fleece so we can't blame the no-iron thing on him). Sadly for the health of the brand, Asian tourists in BH appear far more interested in Gucci and Cartier and Burberry's than BB.

Now if only the Japanese were as passionate about BB as they were about Press, just think about how much more authentic the OCBD's would be! And if we could actually persuade them to buy BB, think of all the wonderful stuff from the archives they'd bring back for the Japanese market! Goodbye European cuts, fashion shoes and award-winning designers, hello original button-downs! Alas, I am sad to report that of the 4 other people I saw in the store yesterday, none of them were Asians.

As to the lack of stock (which I also find tremendously frustrating) it appears that like many other retailers who got burned in 2008 and spring 2009, and had to sell lots of excess inventory at deep discount, BB is now cutting back all it's inventory to extremely low levels. The sales associates complain of it, the telephone sales support people tell me the stores are constantly looking to them for inventory, and even on-line, common sizes of classic items are not available. I wanted to try on the newly introduced made in England blue suede chukkas--but Rodeo drive didn't have my size (8D--hardly a rare one).

We've all enjoyed the tremendous sales and discounts from BB (and many other retailers) over the last few years. I suspect that going forward we may have a harder time finding certain things even at full retail, at least for a while.

Damn those Asian tourists and their oxford-cloth aversion. It's all their fault.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Just to lighten this thread a bit:

I have many gripes about BB. But if they have promos like the one they had last December, I can be a friend again until the next sale.

Good deals sometimes overpowers bitterness. :icon_smile_big:


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## JakeLA (Oct 30, 2006)

The Japanese may be passionate about Press, but the press in Japan has more in common with RL Rugby or even A&F than it does the stores over here. They sell polo shirts with giant bulldogs screen-printed on the front and American flag patches on the sleeve, stuff like that.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

JakeLA said:


> The Japanese may be passionate about Press, but the press in Japan has more in common with RL Rugby or even A&F than it does the stores over here. They sell polo shirts with giant bulldogs screen-printed on the front and American flag patches on the sleeve, stuff like that.


*OH, THE HUMANITY!*


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

*Farewell to EVERYTHING*

Old things were better. New things are worse. Old things that are still around are also worse. Nowadays nothing is good.

I'd go eat worms, but worms taste better now so it wouldn't be the same as eating worms before.

Poo.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You know, despite a lot of things, BB still makes the most well-shaped button down collar. It's not too long or overly rolled (too much looks sloppy). I wish the lining was nixed or at least much lighter, but it's still one of the more comfortable collars I've worn.


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## philidor (Nov 19, 2009)

In addition to pants, jackets, and button down polo collared shirts Brooks Brothers also makes a very roomy polo shirt.


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

In defense of BB, I had excellent service in the Roseville, CA store last weekend.


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## vitriol (Feb 20, 2006)

I spent a good amount of money at the BB store in Century City (LA) last week, to avail myself of the 25% sale (bought my first pair of Aldens actually, $300 for the tassel loafers is a great deal IMO). And I'm glad to say I found an attentive sales person who was all too eager to help me (even before he knew I was planning on buying a lot of items). 

I did ask about must-iron OCBDs in slim fit, and was told -- very politely and apologetically -- that they don't sell well in store so they just don't stock them. He quickly pointed out that he'd be more than happy to order them for me online. At first I was a little irritated to know they don't carry these shirts in store, but then it occurred to me: if no one buys them, why should I expect the store to stock them? Supply and demand. Also it made me realize how far a good, helpful attitude from a sales associate can go (especially given that most SA's, in my experience, loathe having to intermediate between the customer and the catalog).

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I like to maintain a wardrobe of trad staples mixed with more modern garments, so BB works well for me. Admittedly it can be hit or miss with the sales staff, but there's always the online option if you can't find a decent associate to help with your purchase.


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