# Anything wrong with collar button done up on a tie-less shirt?



## phr33dom (May 4, 2009)

If the ambient temperature is not too warm and the fit on a shirt collar is comfortable when the collar button is done up, is it a faux pas to wear any style of shirt (button-down, regular single or double cuff) in a business or casual setting with collar button done up and without a tie? I'm a 15" collar size and wear long point collars. I'm just feeling a reaction against the sloppiness of seeing multiple buttons being undone on shirts whether worn with a jacket or not.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Unless you're an Iranian dictator, probably not a good look.


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## cosmic_cookie (Jan 30, 2014)

Casually... sure, why not? Hell, I've done it - twice! ...albeit I'm 20 and I was with friends...


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

phr33dom said:


> If the ambient temperature is not too warm and the fit on a shirt collar is comfortable when the collar button is done up, is it a faux pas to wear any style of shirt (button-down, regular single or double cuff) in a business or casual setting with collar button done up and without a tie? I'm a 15" collar size and wear long point collars. I'm just feeling a reaction against the sloppiness of seeing multiple buttons being undone on shirts whether worn with a jacket or not.


I think it's a subjective aesthetic issue. I find it can look good worn closed on knit shirts, particularly beneath a jacket, though the same shirts without a jacket also look fine with the button left undone. But I don't find woven shirts so worn appealing. Depending on the frame of reference, they look either geeky or 19th Century miner.

Edit: Must add, don't unless you're David Bowie.


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## Travel57 (Apr 23, 2014)

IMO, if looks terrible. I'm not sure where this came from or why it seems to be getting bigger, but I see it more and meow frequently in the office.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ I frequently meow in the office too...;-)

It's a very unfinished look and I'm really not sure what the appeal is either. It draws attention for all the wrong reasons.


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## cosmic_cookie (Jan 30, 2014)

SG_67 said:


> ^ I frequently meow in the office too...;-)
> 
> It's a very unfinished look and I'm really not sure what the appeal is either. It draws attention for all the wrong reasons.


Personally, I felt that I had to break out of the norm. I was contemplating whether to remove the tie or wear sky blue trousers. I saved the trousers for another night. Now I do my best to avoid trousers.










Side note: Anyone ever notice most bad days happen when you're wearing pants?


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

I once saw a very good comedian, who, to paraphrase and moderate his language, argued that a shirt fully buttoned up without a tie was characteristic of a person described as a colloquial version of "vagina", and having a shirt unbuttoned with more than two buttons undone was the characteristic of an ar$e. The punchline being that a man was always only one button away from either orifice....


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

phr33dom said:


> If the ambient temperature is not too warm and the fit on a shirt collar is comfortable when the collar button is done up, is it a faux pas to wear any style of shirt (button-down, regular single or double cuff) in a business or casual setting with collar button done up and without a tie? I'm a 15" collar size and wear long point collars. I'm just feeling a reaction against the sloppiness of seeing multiple buttons being undone on shirts whether worn with a jacket or not.


It's a look I've seen in Italian gentlemen 'of a certain age' but can't find any pictures of at present. If I recall correctly the shirt that was buttoned to the neck was knit, probably a long-sleeve polo variant and fairly dark colored. The photo in my memory is black and white so I have no idea what color it actually was. It looked okay but probably better on a gentleman of such importance that no one dared call him out on it. How that applies to you I have no idea. :tongue2:


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> Unless you're an Iranian dictator, probably not a good look.


He actually wore/wears his collars open.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

StylePurgatory said:


> He actually wore/wears his collars open.


He did the _un_suit?


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

OP, this bears some similarity to buttoning the bottom button of one's jacket. Let's assume, for the sake of this example, that you're wearing a jacket where the button lines up and is designed so that it can close. We can argue opinions, all day, on which way looks better, and they're just opinions, in the end. What doing that bottom button up actually communicates is that you're unaware of the convention of that it remains undone, i.e. you don't actually know how to wear a suit. Buttoning up your collar button, when not wearing a tie, communicates, primarily, that you don't know that men don't do that with their dress shirts.

Personally, I think it looks off, and I think most agree with me. That's probably where the convention of leaving it undone comes from. It also raises the question of, if you are wanting to look polished and formal enough that you've done up your top button, why didn't you wear a tie?

Do you just like how it looks? Do you find it lets in a draft you get cold if the room isn't warm enough?


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> He did the _un_suit?


Is that a suit and no tie? I can't remember now. He spouts/adheres to some nonsense about the neck tie being a Christian symbol that represents the cross, because you cross it over himself. I'm unsure if he always wears monks/loafers, to avoid tying shoe laces. I also suspect that he's bad to have on a sailboat.


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## barneco (Mar 4, 2014)

I suppose you could pull it off if you live in KY USA, rob banks for a living, and talk like a preacher. Otherwise, I'd avoid.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

It looks better with a tie rather without one.


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## cosmic_cookie (Jan 30, 2014)

StylePurgatory said:


> OP, this bears some similarity to buttoning the bottom button of one's jacket. Let's assume, for the sake of this example, that you're wearing a jacket where the button lines up and is designed so that it can close. We can argue opinions, all day, on which way looks better, and they're just opinions, in the end. What doing that bottom button up actually communicates is that you're unaware of the convention of that it remains undone, i.e. you don't actually know how to wear a suit. Buttoning up your collar button, when not wearing a tie, communicates, primarily, that you don't know that men don't do that with their dress shirts.
> 
> Personally, I think it looks off, and I think most agree with me. That's probably where the convention of leaving it undone comes from. It also raises the question of, if you are wanting to look polished and formal enough that you've done up your top button, why didn't you wear a tie?
> 
> Do you just like how it looks? Do you find it lets in a draft you get cold if the room isn't warm enough?


Out of curiosity, what do you think about wearing a dress shirt without an BD collar, jacket, tie, nor magnetic stays, with the top button unbuttoned? I think it's horribly messy, but I've seen it quite a lot. Also, how do you view those who actively take part in seasonal fashion?


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

phr33dom said:


> If the ambient temperature is not too warm and the fit on a shirt collar is comfortable when the collar button is done up, is it a faux pas to wear any style of shirt (button-down, regular single or double cuff) in a business or casual setting with collar button done up and without a tie? I'm a 15" collar size and wear long point collars. I'm just feeling a reaction against the sloppiness of seeing multiple buttons being undone on shirts whether worn with a jacket or not.


I thought it odd when I first saw the look in the BBC TV series "Peaky Blinders", but I assume there is some historically accuracy there.










David Lynch would be the best known fan of the buttoned collar with no tie these days.












SG_67 said:


> Unless you're an Iranian dictator, probably not a good look.


But the Shah went for a different type of collar altogether.


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## cosmic_cookie (Jan 30, 2014)

barneco said:


> I suppose you could pull it off if you live in KY USA, rob banks for a living, and talk like a preacher. Otherwise, I'd avoid.


I'm just going to throw in Elementary's rendition of Holmes' daywear, while we're at it:

Also, here's a link to Fashion Beans: https://www.fashionbeans.com/ ...it's an interesting looks at what's "in" for menswear (seemingly fully buttoned button downs). I'd say that they're quite a few solid steps above GQ.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

cosmic_cookie said:


> Out of curiosity, what do you think about wearing a dress shirt without an BD collar, jacket, tie, nor magnetic stays? I think it's horribly messy. Also, how do you view those who actively takepart in seasonal fashion?


We're talking about just a dress shirt, with open collar, and a pair of pants? I think that's fine. I'm considering sport shirts in the same vein as business shirts, here, but some shirts will work well with dress pants, and others with jeans, others with chinos, and some span two, or all of those. Patterns, textures, etc. play a role.

I suppose that depends what you mean by seasonal fashion. Are we talking about colours? Are we talking about the current trends? Colours to fit the season? Superb - though can be done well, or badly, like everything. Trends? Depends on the trend, I suppose. I don't specifically disdain fashion, or following current trends. I've done it in the past, and still do sometimes, but I'm pickier about what I partake in - combination of just being older, and also having a clearer idea what I feel looks good on me, and what doesn't.

Not sure I fully answered the question.


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## cosmic_cookie (Jan 30, 2014)

StylePurgatory said:


> We're talking about just a dress shirt, with open collar, and a pair of pants? I think that's fine. I'm considering sport shirts in the same vein as business shirts, here, but some shirts will work well with dress pants, and others with jeans, others with chinos, and some span two, or all of those. Patterns, textures, etc. play a role.
> 
> I suppose that depends what you mean by seasonal fashion. Are we talking about colours? Are we talking about the current trends? Colours to fit the season? Superb - though can be done well, or badly, like everything. Trends? Depends on the trend, I suppose. I don't specifically disdain fashion, or following current trends. I've done it in the past, and still do sometimes, but I'm pickier about what I partake in - combination of just being older, and also having a clearer idea what I feel looks good on me, and what doesn't.
> 
> Not sure I fully answered the question.


I've seen people wearing open collared dress shirts without BD collars, and it seems after a day's time, those stiff collars go up, literally like wings. When I say fashion, I mean fashion as in popular or the latest style; think SS and AW changes. Are there any current fashions you've taken a shine to?


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

I can't think of one, specifically. But I think we're getting too far off topic, here.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

StylePurgatory said:


> He actually wore/wears his collars open.


Can be hard to tell with Il Douchey -









unlike his bud, der Scheissk . . . , er, Herr Schicklgruber.


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## cosmic_cookie (Jan 30, 2014)

StylePurgatory said:


> I can't think of one, specifically. But I think we're getting too far off topic, here.


Ah, you seem to be right! Here we go... back to top buttons buttoned!

I've got a feeling we may progress to this, one day...


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## cosmic_cookie (Jan 30, 2014)

update:

I just remembered that there's a Japanese subculture trend who actually dress like that...


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

It doesn't look very classy. In fact, it looks dorky. That's my gut reaction.

On second read, the reason it strikes me as dorky refers to a "made-up rule" that an esteemed forum member writes about in his blog. The rule, as i understand it, is that when you are in a formal situation or other situation that calls for wearing a jacket or a tie, then any kind of closure or cincure is made invisible. In this case, the buttons and the belt buckle are visible because a tie does not hide them. When you then button the top button, you are calling even more attention to your visible buttons.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I used to do it in college, in order to look like David Byrne, that is, in order to look dorky. I guess I'd do it if I were nostalgia tripping at the Knitting Club or something (esp. with a more elaborately patterned shirt). 

Doesn't this look appear in Revenge of the Nerds?


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

barneco said:


> I suppose you could pull it off if you live in KY USA, rob banks for a living, and talk like a preacher. Otherwise, I'd avoid.


Favourite quote: "you are between a rock, and a much much harder rock".


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## cosmic_cookie (Jan 30, 2014)

Duvel said:


> It doesn't look very classy. In fact, it looks dorky. That's my gut reaction.
> 
> On second read, the reason it strikes me as dorky refers to a "made-up rule" that an esteemed forum member writes about in his blog. The rule, as i understand it, is that when you are in a formal situation or other situation that calls for wearing a jacket or a tie, then any kind of closure or cincure is made invisible. In this case, the buttons and the belt buckle are visible because a tie does not hide them. When you then button the top button, you are calling even more attention to your visible buttons.


I find that quite odd; in white tie the studs will show, your waistcoat buttons show, and we can't really get more formal than that. It could have simply been a lapse of judgment on our peer's part, and besides, aren't all these rules made up by someone :tongue2: I would enjoy seeing the defense of said rule, though.


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## ilikeyourstyle (Apr 24, 2007)

phr33dom said:


> If the ambient temperature is not too warm and the fit on a shirt collar is comfortable when the collar button is done up, is it a faux pas to wear any style of shirt (button-down, regular single or double cuff) in a business or casual setting with collar button done up and without a tie? I'm a 15" collar size and wear long point collars. I'm just feeling a reaction against the sloppiness of seeing multiple buttons being undone on shirts whether worn with a jacket or not.


Probably not a faux-pas, but I think it looks awful.

If you want to fight back against people undoing multiple buttons, just roll with one button undone instead. There is no penalty for being conventional.


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## meanoldmanning (Jan 10, 2015)

Billy Bob Thornton pulls it off pretty well in Sling Blade, right?


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Summary: it's a good look if one wants to look like a hillbilly or a gang member.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

cosmic_cookie said:


> update:
> 
> I just remembered that there's a Japanese subculture trend who actually dress like that...


They're actually Thai, not Japanese.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

watchnerd said:


> Summary: it's a good look if one wants to look like a hillbilly or a gang member.


I resemble that remark!


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

It's not a good look. I would not button the collar of a woven dress shirt unless I wore a tie. 

Especially in the office, it's unconventional enough that it could draw the wrong kind of attention.


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## Woofa (Dec 23, 2014)

I can't believe no one has played the Rainman reference yet.







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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Clothes should emphasise and flatter the face and never detract from it. When the collar is buttoned without a tie, the collar's upside-down V draws the eye to the large expanse of blank shirt. When the collar is unbuttoned, there is a V of chest that leads the eye up to the face and away from the blank shirt.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Matt S said:


> When the collar is buttoned without a tie, the collar's upside-down V draws the eye to the large expanse of blank shirt. When the collar is unbuttoned, there is a V of chest that leads the eye up to the face and away from the blank shirt.


I've heard people say this before, but do we actually have eye-tracking studies that prove this? How do we know this?


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

watchnerd said:


> I've heard people say this before, but do we actually have eye-tracking studies that prove this? How do we know this?


The collar is a frame. When you see a picture frame, do you look inside the frame or outside it? A buttoned collar without a tie frames the shirt. An open collar frames the face. When you have a closed collar with a tie inside, the collar frames the tie and the tie acts as an arrow that points to the face. These are things I think about daily as a graphic designer, and many people review my work to make sure the right messages in our advertisements are emphasised.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

watchnerd said:


> I've heard people say this before, but do we actually have eye-tracking studies that prove this? How do we know this?


Matt at work -









I trust in Matt! :great:


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Matt S said:


> The collar is a frame. When you see a picture frame, do you look inside the frame or outside it? A buttoned collar without a tie frames the shirt. An open collar frames the face. When you have a closed collar with a tie inside, the collar frames the tie and the tie acts as an arrow that points to the face. These are things I think about daily as a graphic designer, and many people review my work to make sure the right messages in our advertisements are emphasised.


So are you saying we don't have any empirical studies to back this up? Just conventional wisdom?

Also, just to clarify, I'm not defending the closed-collar-no-tie look.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

watchnerd said:


> So are you saying we don't have any empirical studies to back this up? Just conventional wisdom?
> 
> Also, just to clarify, I'm not defending the closed-collar-no-tie look.


I'll let Matt speak for himself, but he's both a professional in the field, and a member whose judgment and taste I trust implicitly.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Do we really need a study to prove this is a bad look? Because without even going into what draws the eye where, I think, "That looks weird," whenever anyone sports that look. I know for a fact I'm far from the only one. It's just not commonly done for a reason and Matt's theory seems pretty close to the mark of why.

The photo of David Lynch with the day's-wrinkled forward pleat khakis and soft collared white shirt would look great -- if not for that top button. Suddenly he looks just a bit more uptight despite being in casual clothes and despite being, you know, David Lynch. I think the same even when it's done with polo shirts and can't get behind the fully-buttoned Fred Perry look the mods seem to love.

Long ago, around the time Peaky Blinders takes place, it was considered vulgar to _not_ fasten all your buttons even if you did not wear a tie and even if you were a labourer. Farmhands would still keep their banded or soft point collars fastened while working in the fields. I'd like to think we evolved to something much more attractive looking as the Victorian-era mindset wore off.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Flanderian said:


> I'll let Matt speak for himself, but he's both a professional in the field, and a member whose judgment and taste I trust implicitly.


I'm not questioning his judgment, or his professional credentials.

But as someone who works in marketing, I'm very interested in empirical studies of human behavioral responses. This is one of the reasons why we have focus groups.

The statement was: "the collar's upside-down V *draws the eye* to the large expanse of "

This could be something that has been tested empirically and known.

Or it could be something that hasn't been tested and is just conventional wisdom.

I'm fine with either answer -- I'm simply asking out of intellectual curiosity.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Jovan said:


> Do we really need a study to prove this is a bad look?


You want to prove a subjective assessment?

I don't like the look, either. But I don't claim my preference is provably correct.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

meanoldmanning said:


> Billy Bob Thornton pulls it off pretty well in Sling Blade, right?


+1


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Okay, why are we dredging the internet for crazy-ass photos of buttoned collars being worn by retarded characters in movies? I get it. You don't like the look.

I must have a pic of me somewhere doing similar. If I find it I will post. And it will look pretty good, it just ain't you tho. Fine. A lot of the stuff I see here isn't me either. But what is this compulsion to dump on the looks of others? Looks, as in styles, not lousy fits. I'm all for dumping on lousy fits.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Everything is subjective! Nothing matters!


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Jovan said:


> Everything is subjective! Nothing matters!


One person's subjective opinion is a preference of unknown importance. 1000 people's subjective opinion is actionable data.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Peak and Pine said:


> Okay, why are we dredging the internet for crazy-ass photos of buttoned collars being worn by retarded characters in movies? I get it. You don't like the look.
> 
> I must have a pic of me somewhere doing similar. If I find it I will post. And it will look pretty good, it just ain't you tho. Fine. A lot of the stuff I see here isn't me either. But what is this compulsion to dump on the looks of others? Looks, as in styles, not lousy fits. I'm all for dumping on lousy fits.


What if lousy fit is a chap's look?


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Are you the chap to whom you refer?


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Immaterial to the question.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

I think a majority has said that we don't like the look, and that a concensus is reached that it is unconventional. Is that accurate?


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ So let it be written. So let it be done!


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> ^ So let it be written. So let it be done!


Thanks, King Bob.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

watchnerd said:


> I'm not questioning his judgment, or his professional credentials.
> 
> But as someone who works in marketing, I'm very interested in empirical studies of human behavioral responses. This is one of the reasons why we have focus groups.
> 
> ...


I don't believe this has been tested, and I don't think it would be very easy to test either.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Matt S said:


> I don't believe this has been tested, and I don't think it would be very easy to test either.


It has been tested Matt - and you were absolutely correct in your original assertion.

The gaze is easily directed by design and this can be quantified by optical tracking devices.

I wonder about the 'intellectual curiosity' that precipitated the enquiry for one would expect someone who claims to work in marketing to have full awareness of this.


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## Woofa (Dec 23, 2014)

StylePurgatory said:


> Thanks, King Bob.


Actually I think that is Pharaoh Bob!:cool2:


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I think the effect of the closed collar is magnified when wearing a jacket.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Shaver said:


> It has been tested Matt - and you were absolutely correct in your original assertion.
> 
> The gaze is easily directed by design and this can be quantified by optical tracking devices.


I suspected it had been. Thanks.


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## espressocycle (Apr 14, 2014)

People might think you are special.


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## commandlinegamer (Jun 6, 2013)

Don't think it's a good look, though might be necessary if you're wearing a soft shirt with floppy collar, _viz_ polo.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

Woofa said:


> Actually I think that is Pharaoh Bob!:cool2:


Only until it rains.


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## phr33dom (May 4, 2009)

I'm the original poster and have read all replies with interest. I understand Matt's reasoning regarding the closed collar drawing attention to the vast canvas of shirt rather than the face unless wearing a tie which would point the draw of attention to the face. However, even if this were proved empirically to be correct I still prefer the look of a closed collar when tie-less. My subjective opinion is that I do not like to expose more skin than necessary (within reason). I would prefer to see a closed blank shirt canvas than a 'V' shaped triangle of skin beneath the neck which becomes exposed by the undoing of the top shirt button(s). I never wear short sleeve shirts or roll up my long sleeve shirts and I don't wear shorts, even in summer. My socks are all long. I do not go to the beach.


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## mhdena (Jan 4, 2008)

My opinion only. No Polls, No Data gathering.

Makes no sense to me to button a shirt as if you were going to wear a tie and not wear a tie.

The not wearing a tie when wearing a suit with 1 to 2 buttons undone is for comfort, plenty of men who wore ties daily now enjoy the freedom of not doing so unless in the formalist of occasions.

Going to the trouble of buttoning the top buttons, might as well go all the way and wear a tie.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

OP, I don't understand. You asked for opinions on this yet you already had your mind made up?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

> It doesn't look very classy. In fact, it looks dorky. That's my gut reaction.


So you're saying it looks better with a tie?


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## phr33dom (May 4, 2009)

Jovan said:


> OP, I don't understand. You asked for opinions on this yet you already had your mind made up?


Due to the popularity of the responses that the open collar button is the preferred option that is how I will present myself rather than my personal preference being that of a buttoned collar. I cannot see my collar when dressed but others can so it makes sense to at least please those around me.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

phr33dom said:


> I'm the original poster and have read all replies with interest. I understand Matt's reasoning regarding the closed collar drawing attention to the vast canvas of shirt rather than the face unless wearing a tie which would point the draw of attention to the face. However, even if this were proved empirically to be correct I still prefer the look of a closed collar when tie-less. My subjective opinion is that I do not like to expose more skin than necessary (within reason). I would prefer to see a closed blank shirt canvas than a 'V' shaped triangle of skin beneath the neck which becomes exposed by the undoing of the top shirt button(s). I never wear short sleeve shirts or roll up my long sleeve shirts and I don't wear shorts, even in summer. My socks are all long. I do not go to the beach.


I would choose an ascot over a closed collar button, if my goal is to avoid showing a patch of skin.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

phr33dom said:


> My subjective opinion is that I do not like to expose more skin than necessary (within reason). I would prefer to see a closed blank shirt canvas than a 'V' shaped triangle of skin beneath the neck which becomes exposed by the undoing of the top shirt button(s). I never wear short sleeve shirts or roll up my long sleeve shirts and I don't wear shorts, even in summer. My socks are all long. I do not go to the beach.


Well if you need to cover up for modesty or religious reasons, then that trumps everything.

That being said, I, too, like the idea of an ascot (but I've never worn one).


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

No need to sticky this thread... :icon_headagainstwal


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

phr33dom said:


> Due to the popularity of the responses that the open collar button is the preferred option that is how I will present myself rather than my personal preference being that of a buttoned collar. I cannot see my collar when dressed but others can so it makes sense to at least please those around me.


So you are willing to set aside your personal preference and dress in a way that you don't like just to please others? Contrary to your conclusion, I think that generally does not make sense. There are exceptions. For example, when you are attending a special social function (wedding, funeral, dinner party, anniversary celebration, religious ceremony, etc.), then you are obligated (not required, but socially obligated) to dress in a manner that is customary for the occasion, because in that context you are part of a larger, more important event.

And in the workplace, you often have to make compromises between what you are required or expected to wear and what you really want to wear.

But when you are on your own time, just moving along doing this and that, and you are free to wear whatever you please, it makes no sense to wear things--or wear things in a manner--that you don't like, just to gain other people's approval.

Follow your internal compass. Don't pay too much attention to what others think. That's what I think.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Even away from work, it can affect how people react to you. Only you can judge how important that is. 

Unless there are a lot of extenuating circumstances, I would not recommend the buttoned shirt collar without a tie (or an ascot.) 

Mostly because few people do it; it can be jarring when someone does it. Most people don't want that kind of attention - - although apparently some who post here don't care.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

In Brooklyn all the hipsters wear their shirts with the collar buttoned and no tie. Hipsters do things to go against the norm, and for only that purpose. I see people in Brooklyn with the worst clothing and the ugliest haircuts, all for the purpose of being different. They don't do it to look good or to express themselves. They do it because others do not, and they follow the counterculture.

You should dress to project the image you want to project. The buttoned collar without a tie can project many images, but if you care about looking your best, consider leaving the collar button open when not wearing a tie.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Even away from work, it can affect how people react to you. Only you can judge how important that is.
> 
> Unless there are a lot of extenuating circumstances, I would not recommend the buttoned shirt collar without a tie (or an ascot.)
> 
> Mostly because few people do it; it can be jarring when someone does it. Most people don't want that kind of attention - - although apparently some who post here don't care.


Yes I don't suggest an ascot as a way to look conventional, but I think it's less "off" looking, to most people, than a shirt buttoned all the way up - especially if it's not worn prominently but actually just covering the gap. Then, a crew-neck t-shirt will do the same job, come to think of it. That would be the best way to cover the space, and look as normal as possible.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

StylePurgatory said:


> Yes I don't suggest an ascot as a way to look conventional, but I think it's less "off" looking, to most people, than a shirt buttoned all the way up - especially if it's not worn prominently but actually just covering the gap. Then, a crew-neck t-shirt will do the same job, come to think of it. That would be the best way to cover the space, and look as normal as possible.


Both the ascot (which the British OP may know as a day cravat) and an empty buttoned collar are out of the norm and could draw unwarranted attention. The day cravat with an open collar is, however, a much more attractive look than the empty buttoned collar. The neckerchief is another alternative to the day cravat, though it doesn't cover the neck as well. I'd recommend polo necks (turtlenecks) to cover the neck for the most accepted casual manner.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Matt S said:


> In Brooklyn all the hipsters wear their shirts with the collar buttoned and no tie. Hipsters do things to go against the norm, and for only that purpose. *I see people in Brooklyn with the worst clothing and the ugliest haircuts, all for the purpose of being different. They don't do it to look good or to express themselves. They do it because others do not, and they follow the counterculture.*
> 
> You should dress to project the image you want to project. The buttoned collar without a tie can project many images, but if you care about looking your best, consider leaving the collar button open when not wearing a tie.


As concise a rationale for not taking dressing cues from trends as I've read.


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## RogerP (Oct 31, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> I'll let Matt speak for himself, but he's both a professional in the field, and a member whose judgment and taste I trust implicitly.


Indeed.

It's a bad look. If counter-culture aesthetic (otherwise known as dressing very poorly) is one's preference, there won't be much validation to be found here (I do hope). Some are very keen - bordering on obsessive - in advancing the counter-culture agenda. It seems an odd choice to pursue that here. Kind of like if I went to an urban streetwear forum and started preaching tirelessly about the virtues of the classic three piece suit.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

I just don't understand why people are so opposed to ties. A properly tied tie on a correctly sized shirt is not uncomfortable at all.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ Because Richard Branson doesn't like them.


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## TimelesStyle (Aug 25, 2013)

Flanderian said:


> I think it's a subjective aesthetic issue. I find it can look good worn closed on knit shirts, particularly beneath a jacket, though the same shirts without a jacket also look fine with the button left undone. But I don't find woven shirts so worn appealing. Depending on the frame of reference, they look either geeky or 19th Century miner.
> 
> Edit: Must add, don't unless you're David Bowie.


Or a 90s mob boss from Jersey.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

Inmate.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

What's cholo?


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

StylePurgatory said:


> What's cholo?


I thought this term came out of Chicano pride movements in the '60s, but it turns out to be _very_ old (and, unsurprisingly, derogatory in origin): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholo. I'm just linking here because there's no simple answer. Apparently the LA punk band The Dickies were proud cholos; I still remember their look (incl. shirt buttoned up all the way), but hadn't heard their song "I'm a Cholo" until just now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S66XCILmoqA.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

> You should dress to project the image you want to project. The buttoned collar without a tie can project many images, but if you care about looking your best, consider leaving the collar button open when not wearing a tie.


That's what I do sometimes, I keep the collar button open.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

StylePurgatory said:


> What's cholo?


I'm surprised the term isn't universally known:

Cholo Definition from Urban Dictionary


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Fraser Tartan said:


> A buttoned-up Pendleton Board Shirt is part of the "cholo" look.


Dickies were/are the typical brand of shirt, actually.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

vpkozel said:


> I just don't understand why people are so opposed to ties. A properly tied tie on a correctly sized shirt is not uncomfortable at all.


Hear, hear! And a tie adds individuality and colour as well.


SG_67 said:


> ^ Because Richard Branson doesn't like them.


All too likely!


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

watchnerd said:


> I'm surprised the term isn't universally known:
> 
> Cholo Definition from Urban Dictionary


I desperately wish that the term "wifebeater" for sleeveless undershirt would fall out of usage.


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

SlideGuitarist said:


> I desperately wish that the term "wifebeater" for sleeveless undershirt would fall out of usage.


Hasn't that term been in effect since Brando in 'Streetcar'?


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Fraser Tartan said:


> A buttoned-up Pendleton Board Shirt is part of the "cholo" look.


In my experience as a high school studend in the LA area in the late 1950's Pendletons were worn by my Chicano classmates and by Anglo surfers, and by many older men of all ethnicities.

The urban dictionary description is ill-informed and not accurate. The Hispanic style was to wear chinos, polished leather shoes, and a Pendleton over a tee shirt. Haircuts were typical of the times, no nets or other stuff. Surfers wore Levi's, canvas boot shoes or Converse sneakers, and a Pendleton over a white tee shirt. I think Chicanos buttoned them, leaving the coller button undone. Surfers wore them unbottened. Many of our parent-aged male relatives wore them the way grown ups wore shirts.

William O. Douglas wrote about Pendleton shirts as standard dress for packers and cowboys in the Pacific Northwest of his youth.

Gurdon


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

vpkozel said:


> I just don't understand why people are so opposed to ties. A properly tied tie on a correctly sized shirt is not uncomfortable at all.


With respect to post-revolution Iranian politicians, I understand it is an anti-West statement.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

SlideGuitarist said:


> I desperately wish that the term "wifebeater" for sleeveless undershirt would fall out of usage.


As anti-PC as I am, I must admit that one always makes me cringe.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Titus_A said:


> Inmate.
> 
> View attachment 14532


And farmers, with sleeves down and buttoned and overalls no matter the temperature. Old-school farmers, prisoners, and the insane. Those are the only associations the look evokes for me.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Where the hell is this thread going?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

This is starting to go off the rails. Please watch with insulting posts, etc. We don't want to close the thread and issue infractions, but if you force the issue, we will.


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## meanoldmanning (Jan 10, 2015)

SG_67 said:


> Where the hell is this thread going?


I was wondering why is this thread still going. Ugh.

Why do I keep look!?

Are mullets trad?


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

Gurdon said:


> In my experience as a high school studend in the LA area in the late 1950's Pendletons were worn by my Chicano classmates and by Anglo surfers, and by many older men of all ethnicities.
> 
> The urban dictionary description is ill-informed and not accurate. The Hispanic style was to wear chinos, polished leather shoes, and a Pendleton over a tee shirt. Haircuts were typical of the times, no nets or other stuff. Surfers wore Levi's, canvas boot shoes or Converse sneakers, and a Pendleton over a white tee shirt. I think Chicanos buttoned them, leaving the coller button undone. Surfers wore them unbottened. Many of our parent-aged male relatives wore them the way grown ups wore shirts.


I think it's an issue of time-frame. 1950s is probably pre-Cholo fashion.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Fraser Tartan said:


> I think we were talking about possible subcultural connotations of the buttoned-up collar. That might be a reason why someone might want to avoid wearing their collar that way themselves. Recent posts are right on-topic to me. Video above was a lighthearted, humorous response and acknowledgement to SG that there might have been some thread drift. I don't know if I posted anything offensive or insulting (was the above referring to me?). If so, it was unintentional.


+1. "Cholo" is not an offensive term after it's been proudly reclaimed by subcultures from Ecuador to Texas. That majority culture might identify this look as thuggish, as it certainly used to identify the zoot suit, or low-rider cars, is a separate problem.

With respect to the moderators, I don't think the problem here is that working men button their shirts all the way up, if that were even a problem in the first place. The problem is that it seems subcultural in a way you probably don't want for a "dress-up" occasion (this is true whether you think first of David Lynch, or low-riders).



Spoiler



A guitarist I revere, Eliades Ochoa, a proud guajiro, singing "Que te parece, cholito":


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Use in California of the word "cholo" dates to at least the 18th Century.

Gurdon


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

SG_67 said:


> Where the hell is this thread going?


I thought we were discussing closed buttoned shirts?


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Thank you, Howard.
Regards,
Gurdon


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## YoungSoulRebel (Feb 10, 2015)

As a former member of a "subculture " I can assure you that no "cholo", "skinhead", or "mod" would look twice at a "square" who may button up their shirt all the way. 
I also seriously doubt that any other person who is not involved in subcultures would think that a gentleman who buttons their collar up without a tie is a member of one... Just looking at the comments shows me that even folks who are "in the know" wouldn't know what a cholo is if they saw one... 
As a general look, it's not great IMHO but, as with anything, it's a pretty subjective issue.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

I know, I'm bumping. I've seen this look on numerous musicians, though I don't know why. It might be that a necktie is actually inconvenient for a saxophonist. On the cover of _In All Languages_, Ornette Coleman is wearing what looks like a raw silk sport coat over a silk shirt buttoned up all the way. I saw Roscoe Mitchell perform in such an ensemble (Mitchell dresses quite elegantly, by the way, but often with wider, more ornate neckties). In all these cases, the jacket or the entire suit is already flashy enough than the tie isn't missed (i.e. the suit is never a charcoal worsted suit).


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

A musician's stage costume is a lot different and intended to look good (in the eyes of his/her particular audience) and draw attention, possibly even deliberately vary from the norm.

For instance, I have occasionally worn neckerchiefs when performing, but would not think of wearing one in normal life.

There have been many sax players who have worn ties; not wearing one is a clothing decision, not a functional decision.


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## Silver-streak (Jun 4, 2014)

This isn't a look most can pull off IMO. In the right setting and context, and honestly the right shirt, it can work. To me, it just screams Parker Lewis circa 1991:


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> A musician's stage costume is a lot different and intended to look good (in the eyes of his/her particular audience) and draw attention, possibly even deliberately vary from the norm.
> 
> For instance, I have occasionally worn neckerchiefs when performing, but would not think of wearing one in normal life.
> 
> There have been many sax players who have worn ties; not wearing one is a clothing decision, not a functional decision.


I agree. I wasn't thinking of doing this myself. When I used to play out, I would wear silk trousers; I haven't worn them in years.


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## williamson (Jan 15, 2005)

SlideGuitarist said:


> In all these cases, the jacket or the entire suit is already flashy enough than the tie isn't missed (i.e. the suit is never a charcoal worsted suit).


 Perhaps the tie's absence is ignored?


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