# Jackson Shoes - made by Loake?



## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

Hi all,

I've noticed a number of shoes sold by Jackson Shoes on EBay - their own brand, as well as Chapman and Moore and a handful of Grensons and Lewins. I notice that a number of the Jackson-branded shoes look an awful lot like Loakes - especially this one:

https://jacksonshoes.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=49

..which greatly resembles the Loake Norwich. Does anyone know if my supposition is right?

Geoff

PS - Any idea who makes Chapman and Moore? At their prices I can't think the shoes would be much good.


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## Graft (Apr 7, 2008)

I would say that you are correct. Loake makes a lot of the shoes from Herring Shoes' private label. The shoes look just like my pair of Norwich and the nail pattern in the heel is the same.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,
If you search the Jackson Shoes eBay store for teir own brand shoes you'll find a little more information. They are made by Sanders apparently.

https://search.stores.ebay.co.uk/ja...sooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftsZ2QQsaselZ312775768QQsofpZ0

I'm very pleased with my Sanders boots- importantly for me they're actually made in England unlike Loake and, so far, they have done me proud. I can also recommend Jackson Shoes very highly. They're a brilliant source for Grenson Rose and Masterpiece shoes.

Hope this helps,
Chris.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Hello all, handmade British shoes are a speciality of mine, and although I'm not allowed to advertise it here,(so I won't) I'll just say that I have a facebook group on the subject.

Anyway, Jacksons are not made by Loake, I had pair similar to Loake 747s, a few years ago and I currently have a pair of Loake 747s.

The quality of leather on Jackson's is nowhere near Loake's. If you look at the grainy leather on those Jackson's in that picture and then compare them to these Loake 747s you'll see there's a world of difference.

= 

And here's the Norwich for quality comparison - a very different quality of leather.

=

Best regards

James de Buitléar


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

chrstc said:


> I'm very pleased with my Sanders boots- importantly for me they're actually made in England unlike Loake


Do you know for a fact that Loake are not made in England? Sources please.


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

I was under the impression that their 1880 line (their top grade) was entirely UK-made; whereas, for their L1 grade (lowest tier) the uppers were made in India but the soles were attached and final finishings were done at their Kettering factory. 

However, I seem to recall reading somewhere (wish I could remember where) that a Loake representative did actually state that all of their shoes were English-made. I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to ask the company directly.

Geoff


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Well put Hector. 

Of course Loake's are still made in England at their Kettering factory. 



James de Buitléar


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Well put Hector.
> 
> Of course Loake's are still made in England at their Kettering factory.
> 
> James de Buitléar


Hello,
It has been said here and in many other places that in fact all of he supposed "made in England" Loake lines are made in India and only welted here in the Kettering factory. If this information is wrong I apologise but many shoe experts on this forum believe it to be true. This is not at all unusual (unfortunately) with Barker being another company who have adopted the same tactics. Although their shoes are labelled as Barker England none of the current range is made entirely here in this country. The only English Barkers are their private label work.

Chris.

EDIT: I should also have said that I received an email from Loake some time ago saying that they now import several lines of shoes from Portugal, Spain, Italy and India so, regardless of who you believe in relation to the 1880 line, there are still plenty of imported Loakes.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> It has been said here and in many other places that in fact all of he supposed "made in England" Loake lines are made in India and only welted here in the Kettering factory. If this information is wrong I apologise but many shoe experts on this forum believe it to be true. This is not at all unusual (unfortunately) with Barker being another company who have adopted the same tactics. Although their shoes are labelled as Barker England none of the current range is made entirely here in this country. The only English Barkers are their private label work.
> 
> Chris.


Unless there is evidence that Loake ( or Barker for that matter) are not made in England then wouldn't it be wise to say that it has been 'suggested' that they are not made in England and cite the source of the suggestion?

The problem is that unfounded suggestions get picked up and repeated until they become 'facts'; as indeed do most urban legends. It's irrelevant whether or not 'shoe experts on this forum', or any other forum, _believe_ anything be true; what surely matters is what is true in reality. At least that seems self-evident to me.

I'd certainly like to know what proof you have regarding where Loake and Barker are made. Is that something you can provide?


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,
I am well aware of he problems involved with unsubstantiated rumours. I have made my position abundantly clear as regards Loake in the post that you have quoted so no further explanation is necessary there.

Regarding Barker please email the factory yourself or call and ask to speak to the managing director about this topic. I ordered a pair of Flynn shoes from them in January this year having naively assumed that they were still made in England. I then contacted them about this matter whilst my order was being processed and was informed of the facts as I stated them before. No Barker own-label shoes are now completely made in England. They are made in India and finished/welted in Earls Barton. Some private label Barkers and all the Barker Blacks are still made here, though. It depends entirely on what is requested by the labels concerned. There is therefore absolutely no conjecture involved as to the origin of Barker shoes.

Of course if we could only believe what was written on a country of origin label these days these rumours would not persist.

Chris.


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## Groover (Feb 11, 2008)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Hello all, handmade British shoes are a speciality of mine, and although I'm not allowed to advertise it here,(so I won't) I'll just say that I have a facebook group on the subject.
> 
> Anyway, Jacksons are not made by Loake, I had pair similar to Loake 747s, a few years ago and I currently have a pair of Loake 747s.
> 
> ...


Sorry, got to disagree.

The Jackson Shoes variant of the Norwich, is in fact that exact Loake model, exactly the same just with a different sock liner. Same brogue printing, same last (029) same detailing on the sole. Calf leather and not corrected grain of the 747.

On the subject of Loakes & being made in the UK, I've had a pair of these in my hands today:
=

Under the tongue is printed "Hand Crafted in India"

Loake have a lot of their shoes cut and stitched abroad, lasted and welted in the UK, hence the ability to repair.

The discussion about the "Made In England" stamp has been discussed at length already on these boards.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> It has been said *here and in many other places* that in fact all of he supposed "made in England" Loake lines are made in India and only welted here in the Kettering factory. If this information is wrong I apologise but many shoe experts on this forum believe it to be true.


So, is this your source?



chrstc said:


> This is not at all unusual (unfortunately) with Barker being another company who have adopted the same tactics. Although their shoes are labelled as Barker England none of the current range is made entirely here in this country. The only English Barkers are their private label work.Chris.


Loakes now appear to be _guilty_ because they adopt similar tactics to Barker. However, no evidence of Barker's entire range _not_ being made in England is provided other than the heresay alluded to in the first part.



chrstc said:


> EDIT: I should also have said that I received an email from Loake some time ago saying that they now import several lines of shoes from Portugal, Spain, Italy and India so, regardless of who you believe in relation to the 1880 line, there are still plenty of imported Loakes.


Now this really is becoming muddled. First you say Loakes are not made in England because 'It has been said here and in many other places that in fact all of he supposed "made in England" Loake lines are made in India and only welted here in the Kettering factory.' (sic) Moreover, that if this information is wrong, then you apologise. Now, you mention an alleged e mail from Loakes saying that certain shoes are imported and that regardless of what people may believe about 1880s being made in England that there are a lot of imported Loakes. Obviously, assuming the e email actually exists, this in no- way proves that the Loakes in question on this forum are the alleged imported ones and it is most certainly in no manner a refutation of 1880s being of English manufacture. To be honest, the reported e mail seems to be a bit of a red herring and it would certainly help if you could attach a scan.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> I am well aware of he problems involved with unsubstantiated rumours. I have made my position abundantly clear as regards Loake in the post that you have quoted so no further explanation is necessary there.


I'm sorry your position is decidedly unclear.



chrstc said:


> Regarding Barker please email the factory yourself or call and ask to speak to the managing director about this topic. I ordered a pair of Flynn shoes from them in January this year having naively assumed that they were still made in England. I then contacted them about this matter whilst my order was being processed and was informed of the facts as I stated them before. No Barker own-label shoes are now completely made in England. They are made in India and finished/welted in Earls Barton. Some private label Barkers and all the Barker Blacks are still made here, though. It depends entirely on what is requested by the labels concerned. There is therefore absolutely no conjecture involved as to the origin of Barker shoes.Chris.


This makes a bit more sense to me, Chris. Was it only a spoken communication or do you have anything in writing that you could share?



chrstc said:


> Of course if we could only believe what was written on a country of origin label these days these rumours would not persist.


Now on this we can agree! :icon_smile:


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

Groover said:


> On the subject of Loakes & being made in the UK, I've had a pair of these in my hands today:
> =
> 
> Under the tongue is printed "Hand Crafted in India"


Interesting. Is there still a made in England claim anywhere?



Groover said:


> The discussion about the "Made In England" stamp has been discussed at length already on these boards.


It has, but a satisfactory discussion there has not been IMHO.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> No Barker own-label shoes are now completely made in England. They are *made* in India and finished/welted in Earls Barton..


This really makes no sense at all. 'Made' is a weighty word with connotations of creation and formation - of manufacture itself. 'Finished' is a unsubstantial word suggesting that only the final touches are applied. However, if they are welted in England, than they logically must have been 'lasted' there, too. In other words, the extent of the making in India could well be the cutting and stitching of the uppers.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> No Barker own-label shoes are now completely made in England.


Hello again,
Well since you are so fond of discussions of semantics, let's begin with your final point first. If you re-read the section of my last post that you yourself chose to quote (and which I have quoted again above) you will see the word "completely". Therefore, as far as my argument is concerned, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference how much of the work is done in India. If ANY work is done there at all then the shoes are NOT completely made in England.
As far as sources, I can only refer you to my previous post once again. Please contact Mr. Walters (the MD at least back in January!) via phone or email Barker via their website. I do not expect my words here to be taken as some sort of "Gospel truth". Email the company and verify the information for yourself. Strangely enough I didn't try to tape record the conversation. I got my refund and that was that.

Now on to the Loake email. Please see a partial transcript below. I have not included the full email as I do not wish to reveal my address and phone number (shown at the top) or the full name of the lady (Ms/Mrs Banks) who sent this to me as I'm sure she wouldn't be thrilled to find her name floating around here. Yes I could have faked this email couldn't I but, once again, stop criticising me and get on and contact the company yourself to verify the information. Of course Groover's point is also very valid- or does holding an Indian-made Loake shoe in your hands not count either....

Your point about belief is valid but utterly overwrought. Unfortunately the fact remains that we cannot now trust the information given to us by manufacturers due to the new labelling legislation. Therefore what they tell us is as likely to be untrue as anything you glean from this forum. Contact the companies concerned, ask the right questions and make up your own mind. Anyone who takes any information at face value and doesn't attempt to check it themselves is heading for trouble.

Chris.

we do import from Italy, Spain, Portugal and India a limited selection of styles; most of which are made by construction methods which we do not have in our factory. We are very careful to ensure that these are of comparable quality to our own production and therefore worthy of our brand.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

chrstc said:


> we do import from Italy, Spain, Portugal and India a limited selection of styles; most of which are made by construction methods which we do not have in our factory. We are very careful to ensure that these are of comparable quality to our own production and therefore worthy of our brand.


My emphasis.

So are not talking about Goodyear welted shoe here at all!. Not unless Loake and Barker have suddenly stopped making such shoes. So, once again, your mention of these 'foreign' shoes has absolutely nothing to do with the type of shoe which is favoured by the members of this forum.

To return to whether or not Loake and Barker shoes, that state to be, are in any way not COMPLETELY made in England what evidence do we have of this? I'm not addressing this question specifically to you, Chris. But rather to all those 'experts' who believe it to be the case. After all why should anyone pester poor shoe makers if such proof already exists?


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,
Once again, and for the final time because I am totally sick of all this now, I refer you to what has already been said. Click on the link in Groover's post. That shoe is Goodyear welted. It is also made in India. Also, although I happen to agree with you regarding Goodyear welted shoes, there are many on this forum who prefer Mocs, Blake-stitched shoes or shoes that use other forms of construction.
I'm afraid that regarding evidence you have to contact the companies concerned. If I want a product and it matters to me where it is made then I always ask the question these days. I have learnt from my past mistakes. Barker were perfectly happy to admit that their shoes are not entirely made in their factory in England. Likewise Loake were more than happy to tell me that their L1s (Goodyear welted again) are made in India and that those other ranges mentioned before are made abroad.

As I say the "evidence" is there. I don't "believe" that Barker shoes are not entirely made here- I know they are not because they told me as much. I can't see what more "evidence" a person would need.

I'm afraid that these days it is usually very safe to conclude that if a product is not specifically marked "made in England" then it is made abroad. Unfortunately, as stated above, that is only half of the problem as some products that do carry that label are still not entirely contructed here.

This is my last comment on the matter. 

Chris.

EDIT: You should also look at the word "most" before the section of that email that you have emphasised. It is also rather telling.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

That final post did I feel make some very good points. I suppose at the end of the day it's the only way that Loake L1s can be retailed for a tad over 100 GDP. I.m now wondering precisely what Allen Edmonds' 'Made in the US from imported materials' actually means. Could an upper stitched abroad be caegorised as an imported material?


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Groover said:


> Sorry, got to disagree.
> 
> The Jackson Shoes variant of the Norwich, is in fact that exact Loake model, exactly the same just with a different sock liner. Same brogue printing, same last (029) same detailing on the sole. Calf leather and not corrected grain of the 747.
> 
> ...


Ok Groover, I'll bow to your greater in-hand in front of face experience of the Norwich and it's Jackson equivalent. All I'm saying is that the Jackson equivalent of the Loake 747 (which I owned) is not the same shoe as the Loake 747 (which I currently own) & the quality of the leather is nowhere near the same. The grain on the Jackson leather is far grainier. And there are other details that tell them apart as well.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello again Hector,
OK can we call a truce now, then?! No more comments about place of manufacture for me as promised but here are a couple of other less contentious points!!

I have no experience whatsoever with any of the US or European manufacturers but, regarding the Loake L1 prices, that is why I like my Sanders shoes. The prices are lower than Loake in many cases and they offer great value for money in my opinion.

EDIT: I've suddenly remembered that the labelling problems we have to deal with in this country are down to EU legislation. Therefore they don't apply in the US where I believe the "true" country of origin always has to be shown on the label. I know this discussion has been had here before with reference to Hilditch and Key shirts and their use of the Made in Great Britain label in the US but not in the UK. The idea of an upper being classified as an imported material is very interesting (in a depressing way) though.


Earl of Ormonde- I think what Groover is saying is that you are coming to the wrong conclusion about the grained leather of the Jackson shoes and the smooth leather of the Loakes. The Loakes are smooth because the grain has been corrected and smoothed artificially and this is actually a sign of lesser quality leather rather than better quality. The Jackson shoes have visible grain in the leather as they use better quality calf leather that has not been corrected. 

Chris.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Earl of Ormonde- I think what Groover is saying is that you are coming to the wrong conclusion about the grained leather of the Jackson shoes and the smooth leather of the Loakes. The Loakes are smooth because the grain has been corrected and smoothed artificially and this is actually a sign of lesser quality leather rather than better quality. The Jackson shoes have visible grain in the leather as they use better quality calf leather that has not been corrected.
> 
> Chris.


Myself and Groover are obvoiusly talking at cross purposes then.

I'm making two points:

1. The Jackson leather is grainier

2. Having owned a pair of Jackson's and various Loakes, the feel on the foot and in the hand of the leather on the Jackson's was in my opinion far inferior.

I'm not making any comment about the actual type of leather used or the supposed quality stated by manufacturer of leather used. I'm simply saying that in my opinion the quality of the Jackson's leather is inferior to that of the Loake's -based on in hand and on foot experience.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

This old Guardian article might be of interest.

*The long walk*

*These brogues are stamped 'Made in England'. But that's far from the whole story. In the last of her investigations into how 'British' products are really made, Fran Abrams travels from Woodbridge to Kettering - via Chennai, India*

https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/26/globalisation.features11


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello again Hector,

Thanks for posting that article. It was an interesting read, even if throroughly depressing on many levels. I'm glad you've managed to track down some evidence of the sort you wanted too. My attempts to find something similar via Google failed so well done on the detective work!

Thanks again,
Chris.


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

Very interesting article! I noted the following bit towards the end:

"A minority of [Loake's] shoes are still made here in their entirety; the majority have their uppers made in India."

I suspect that minority is the 1880 line - I sent an email to the company asking them about this. I'll pass on the reply, if there is one.

Geoff


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## jmonroestyle (Nov 6, 2006)

I ordered a pair of the Jackson Shoes equivalent of the Loake, Norwich.

I ended up sending them back due to fitting issues (which I would have also had with the Loake Norwich, considering they are really the same shoe).

The only difference between the Jackson Shoes version, and the Norwich (as explained to me by Jackson Shoes) is that the Norwich is made from French Calf, and The Jackson Shoes version is made from Italian calf. The quality of this Italian calf leather looked first class.

The Jackson shoes looked great, and were very solidly built. Had they fit I would have kept them and proudly worn them.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

chrstc said:


> ... I like my Sanders shoes. The prices are lower than Loake in many cases and they offer great value for money in my opinion.
> 
> Chris.


I've had a look at the Sanders range. They do seem to represent good value. Thanks for the tip.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

Geoff Gander said:


> I suspect that minority is the 1880 line - I sent an email to the company asking them about this. I'll pass on the reply, if there is one.
> 
> Geoff


Look forward to reading what you can find out, Geoff.


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## Groover (Feb 11, 2008)

Right then. For those who still want clarification on the UK NON UK manufacture, here is, in it's entirety the response I received from Loake regarding the origin of their shoes in terms of manufacture:

Dear xxxxxxx 
Thank you for your email​
In addition to our main factory in Kettering, we have recently opened a second factory in India which gives us extra production capacity. Some of our shoes, particularly those in the Design Loake range, we make in both factories, but please be assured that we use exactly the same materials, exactly the same processes and, other than the wording on the underside of the tongue, the shoes are indistinguishable. So, you do have a genuine pair of Loake shoes.​
Well over 95% of all footwear sold in the UK is now sourced from overseas but, provided it is sold within the EU; there is currently no requirement to label goods with their country of origin. However, we at Loake are extremely proud of our manufacturing heritage and tradition and we take pride in the fact that we produce our own shoes. We believe that it is correct to mark them with their Country of origin, and this also gives the added advantage that we can export them to countries outside Europe and comply with the regulations. We are also proud that Loake is an English brand and the "Loake England" badge is respected around the world.​
Yours sincerely
xxxxxxxx​


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

Groover said:


> Right then. For those who still want clarification on the UK NON UK manufacture, here is, in it's entirety the response I received from Loake regarding the origin of their shoes in terms of manufacture:
> 
> *Dear xxxxxxx
> Thank you for your email*​ *... other than the wording on the underside of the tongue, the shoes are indistinguishable. So, you do have a genuine pair of Loake shoes...*​


Thank for this, Groover. So, putting everything together, then it looks that if a pair of Loake shoes says it's made in England, it has been, at least to a certain extent!


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

Hi all,

Ms. Banks, the director's secretary at Loake, was very forthcoming, and replied very quickly. Here is the response:

*********************

Dear Mr Gander

Thank you for your email.

Many of the L1 styles are made in our factory in India. However, all of the 1880 styles are made here in our factory in Kettering, Northamptonshire.

*********************

So there you have it, gents - the 1880s are English-made shoes.

Geoff


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

Geoff Gander said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Ms. Banks, the director's secretary at Loake, was very forthcoming, and replied very quickly. Here is the response:
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the trouble to do the detective work, Geoff. What's reassuring about this is Loake's honesty both in specifying which shoes are made in England and for clearly marking on the shoes where other shoes are made.


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

Agreed! If only companies (like TM Lewin) were forthcoming as to who makes their shoes....


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## VincentC (May 23, 2008)

Ive always thought Loakes were made entirely in England.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

I have a pair of brown shoes from Clifford James that are exactly like a Loake Norwich.

Very nice, soft,comfortable leather on the uppers and the price was very low.

I am very happy with them wherever they were made.

They are stamped underneath the tongue too. 9-13p. Shoe is a size 9UK.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> I have a pair of brown shoes from Clifford James that are exactly like a Loake Norwich.
> 
> Very nice, soft,comfortable leather on the uppers and the price was very low.
> 
> ...


Are these the Samuel Windsor? I haven't had a look ecently. Certainly a great price but they do look hard and plasticky. Would be wonderful if the reality was better!


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

No. They were under Clifford James own brand so even cheaper.

It was a couple of years back and they no longer offer them.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

The article is from June 2002.

I was told, that in recent years it is considered better practice for shoe companies, to have whole ranges assigned at being produced in either England or abroad. The difficulties of coordinating part-production in one end of the world with part-production elsewhere, were enormous. (If the uppers from India are late, then you have the expensive English staff twiddling their thumbs).

As far as I know,, Loake has stopped marking their shoes as “Made in England”, and use solely the company name “Loake England“.


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

Changing the subject slightly, I notice that Loake, via Pediwear, has introduced five new styles into its 1880 range (they aren't being offered by Herring yet):

-Aldwych (oxford)
-Buckingham (brogue)
-Fenchurch (loafer)
-Knightsbridge (updated Norwich?)
-Strand (Adelaide)

I think the Strand is basically what CT is now offering as a brown semi-brogue (escept that Loake is selling them only in black calf and burgundy polished). Still, at £129 not a bad deal. The picture of the Buckingham in tan looks promising, too. 

Geoff


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