# Summer Associate Trad Attire



## etown883 (Mar 10, 2006)

For the lawyers on the board . . . . I have a summer associate gig at a fairly big firm coming up. This firm has the reputation as the most conservative firm where I live. My question is what do you all think is appropriate trad attire? Bow ties OK? Red trousers? Feel free to respond by PM if you think that is more appropriate.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

What's your goal?

The days of summer associates being treated as minor deities has largely passed (although will surely return at some point...). The summer associate program is an extended interview--treat it otherwise at your extreme peril.

While I fully embrace the more flamboyant aspects of trad (GTH, reds, madras, etc.), I would not recomend anything beyond a conservative suit, white or blue shirt, conservative tie with a FITH knot, cap toe shoes for the office or dinner.

You want to be remembered as a good guy who does great work--not the jackass who wore reds and/or a bow tie to the office/happy hour/dinner at the managing partner's weekend house. Even if I'm wearing reds to a summer function, if I see a summer in reds, I really wonder about his maturity and judgment.

You have what is likely a great opportunity (particularly in a rough market for young lawyers)--I wouldn't risk it over clothing very few people see as anything other than clownish. At some point, you can dress without concern for what others think, but as a summer, you absolutely need to concern yourself with what others think (support staff, associates, and partners).

Leave the reds, bow ties, etc. for well into your first year (after you get your bar results) and have a good feel for the office, the partners, etc.

Good luck--being a summer is usually a hell of a lot of fun.


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## ecox (Oct 25, 2009)

What he said. If you're remembered for your clothes, you're doing something wrong. Dress conservatively, like you would if you really worked there as an attorney. Do really, really good work. And you might get lucky and get an offer.


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## burton (Nov 11, 2007)

Completely agree with the statements above. Don't be the summer jackass. You have not yet earned the right to wear a bowtie.  Your goal is to be remembered for your positive attitude and the quality of your work. Wear conservative shoes and ties. Assuming your office is business casual and you won't be wearing suits, adopt a uniform that is well within the guidelines, not at the edge. Dressing quietly is a virtue in a law firm.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

As a senior partner of a large law firm, I agree with most of the foregoing advice, especially the importance of doing great work and displaying a healthy work appetite. That said, I think the reaction to bow ties may depend on region. I don't think one must earn the right to wear a bow tie at an Atlanta law firm, in part because bow ties are considered pretty conservative and conventional in much of the south. While law firms appreciate conservative dress, we are not accounting firms. A lawyer is permitted to demonstrate that he knows how to dress tastefully without being assigned a uniform. Furthermore, with the rise of business casual, the very act of wearing a suit and tie each day will be appreciated, regardless whether the tie is bow or four in hand. 

Edit: As I gave this more thought, I'm willing to back pedal a bit. I do think that there are some lawyers who view bow ties as affectations. Silly, but true. Most of these are not from the south, but their opinions matter nonetheless. Probably safest to wear bow ties only occasionally.


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## Ron_A (Jun 5, 2007)

I agree with all of the above. I agree that it depends on where you are going to be located. In Charleston, SC (or Atlanta even), you may be able to get away with a lot more "Southern Trad" then you would somewhere like Chicago. In Chicago, bow ties are few and far between, and mainly on eccentric-looking old guys. A summer associate wearing a bow tie likely would be laughed at behind his back and known as the guy who wore the bow tie. If you have an opportunity to participate in casual Friday (or wear business casual on a day-to-day basis -- most large law firms here in town are business casual), then you_ might_ be able to get away with wearing reds with a white OCBD and navy blazer. But, why risk standing out as the guy who dresses like a clown. I would focus on conservative trad -- white OCBDs, tasteful repp ties, well-pressed traditional clothing and well-shined shoes.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Just wanted to say congratulations on the summer associate. As a 1L that's begging people to employ me for free, it's nice to know people are still getting jobs!


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## etown883 (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks all for the great advice. Much is what I assumed would be the proper path, but it is nice to get it from the horse's mouth. Though I don't think I am a jackass, and would regard the wearing of bows as normal, I can understand how it might be perceived. I plan to use my OCBDs, repps, etc all summer. 

Hookem: Have you looked into local judges? I worked for a U.S. District Court my 1L summer and it was a fantastic experience.


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

Fun thread, as I am about to be a SA this summer as well, though it would be more fun with some ridiculous anecdotes about experiences as/with summer associates.

Any suggestions for a nice, good-looking brown cap toe?

Also, I'm a don't-be-the-nail-that-gets-hammered-down type guy, so just to make sure: There's no problem with a nice khaki/olive poplin suit, is there (in terms of working for a conservative firm etc. etc. etc.)?


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

etown883 said:


> Thanks all for the great advice. Much is what I assumed would be the proper path, but it is nice to get it from the horse's mouth. Though I don't think I am a jackass, and would regard the wearing of bows as normal, I can understand how it might be perceived. I plan to use my OCBDs, repps, etc all summer.
> 
> Hookem: Have you looked into local judges? I worked for a U.S. District Court my 1L summer and it was a fantastic experience.


Yes, that was goal #1, but they ended up filling up down here. Thanks, though! And good luck.


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## Pleasant McIvor (Apr 14, 2008)

M. Morgan said:


> Any suggestions for a nice, good-looking brown cap toe?


Allen Edmonds Park Avenue


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## sgaiii (Jun 7, 2006)

M. Morgan said:


> Fun thread, as I am about to be a SA this summer as well, though it would be more fun with some ridiculous anecdotes about experiences as/with summer associates.
> 
> A horrid man who lived a horrid life was approached by the devil to see if the man, given his horrid existence, might be interested in spending eternity in hell. The man agreed and went to hell for a look around.
> 
> ...


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## etown883 (Mar 10, 2006)

Totally heard that, but still hilarious!


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

etown883 said:


> For the lawyers on the board . . . . I have a summer associate gig at a fairly big firm coming up. This firm has the reputation as the most conservative firm where I live. My question is what do you all think is appropriate trad attire? Bow ties OK? Red trousers? Feel free to respond by PM if you think that is more appropriate.


Red trousers in the most conservative firm in town? You're not serious.

Red trousers are to wear sailing or for a casual dinner on the deck at the yacht club. Get yourself a charcoal worsted suit from J. Press with unpleated trousers and a 3-button jacket to wear at the firm.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

If you could pull off the Archibald Cox Brooks Brothers straight bowtie look, that's about as conservative as you can get:



But I wouldn't advise it for a summer associate and I don't know if Brooks Brothers even makes straight bowties any more. I'm fortunate in that I inherited about 20-30 of them from my father, and still wear them, yes even when going to court.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Beresford said:


> I don't know if Brooks Brothers even makes straight bowties any more. I'm fortunate in that I inherited about 20-30 of them from my father, and still wear them, yes even when going to court.


Ellie will make them for you: https://thecordialchurchman.bigcartel.com/

https://ellielaveer.wordpress.com/2...y-the-straight-and-the-diamond-point-bow-tie/


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

Those straight bowties are gorgeous -- both the one on Cox and Ellie's. Simply and, I think, more serious-looking than the sometimes-clownish bigger bows. Would that I had it in me to wear bows; alas, I do not.

Can anyone recommend a couple good suits and a couple nice pairs of shoes for a summer associate gig? I have some black tassel loafers and some nice black cap toes that I'll bring down for my summer, but would like something in other than black for the shoes. Also, I have all kinds of old Southwick suits passed down to me from my father, but with the exception of a pretty gray pinstripe I'll take with me, they're a little too heavy and burly-looking for a summer at the firm.

Good value/sale would be nice, but I don't mind dropping a couple thousand dollars here as I make the transition from boat shoes and khakis to (sigh) suits and dress shoes.


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## Grenadier (Dec 24, 2008)

Well, I got an offer (and, actually, a part-time job for the rest of law school) during my summer associate. I also regularly wore a seersucker suit; I just smiled and wore it in good humor and it worked out well.

For brown shoes, a pair of Allen Edmonds cap toes in chili is a great way to go; I think the Fifth Avenue is the current model for such. I alternated between those and my black park avenues during my summer.


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## PersianMonarchs (Dec 7, 2005)

Agree that red pants in a good law firm would be "just showing off" (which is NOT recommended). Bow ties could be the same but "it ain't necessarily so." I think it probably would be safe (i.e. appropriate) to wear a bow tie, but, as others have noted, just make sure it's tasteful and doesn't look like you're trying to draw attention to yourself. A nice, conservative suit (whether it's just a poplin or a modest summer weight wool) would go a long way toward taking the sting out of the bow tie. And, of course, the shirt should be seen and not heard. Leave the Jermyn Street purple stripes for Wall Street (and for partners, not summer associates). 

Drifting beyond the bounds of your question, never forget that, as Bertie Wooster says, there is no substitute for a sunny disposish. Having served multiple sentences on the recruiting committee, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that good work, good judgment, and a winning personality work every time. And the better you can write, the better!

Hopefully it is unnecessary to point out, in addition, that pleated trousers and/or slim fit shirts are malum in se and, charm, brilliance, and judgment to the contrary notwithstanding, they are sure to preclude an offer to return. 

Or at least they should be.


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## icky thump (Feb 2, 2008)

1. Wear any color two button (or three button J Press) suit as long as it's navy or charcoal; 

2. Wear any color shirt as long as it's white or light blue with a button or straight collar; 

3. Wear any color tie as long as it's a red or navy. 

4. Wear any color casual pants as long as they're khaki.


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## philidor (Nov 19, 2009)

sgaiii said:


> M. Morgan said:
> 
> 
> > Fun thread, as I am about
> ...


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

icky thump said:


> 1. Wear any color two button (or three button J Press) suit as long as it's navy or charcoal;
> 
> 2. Wear any color shirt as long as it's white or light blue with a button or straight collar;
> 
> ...


1. Nobody will care if your suit coat is three button or two as long as it is conservative and fits.

2. Conservative striped shirts are perfectly fine.

3. Any conservative tie is fine, including greens, golds, blues (including light blue), and the ever versatile maroon and burgundy. Reds and navy are ok too, but certainly not superior to the foregoing list.

4. Taupe, gray flannel, olive are also fine, as is dark or navy blue though a bit more difficult to pair with jackets.


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## philidor (Nov 19, 2009)

icky thump said:


> 1. Wear any color two button (or three button J Press) suit as long as it's navy or charcoal;
> 
> 2. Wear any color shirt as long as it's white or light blue with a button or straight collar;
> 
> ...


A navy tie would work with a navy blazer?

For ties I'd recommend Hermes, Paul Stuart, Vineyard Vines,and Leonard Paris (not the obnoxious ones with the big flowers, but the ones with the tiny designs on them). Doesn't really matter the brand per se, just have it be 100% silk. Avoid polyester and/or purple under any circumstances.

Red ties work especially well with worsted wool gray suits. Just go for natural shoulder, three buttoned, and a standard lapel.

If you see a one button jacket with a wide lapel, run as far away as you can in the opposite direction.


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

Topsider said:


> Ellie will make them for you: https://thecordialchurchman.bigcartel.com/
> 
> https://ellielaveer.wordpress.com/2...y-the-straight-and-the-diamond-point-bow-tie/


Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about my fellow Presbyterian's wife who makes the beautiful bowties!


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

I'm going to bump this thread to the top with a couple of questions:

(1) How do you folks like this Press suit as a basic gray sack for a summer associate gig? It's not charcoal, but I like it nonetheless.
(2) For a poplin summer suit, could someone recommend me a good pair of matching shoes?

Thanks in advance.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Great suits. You can't lose. With the olive poplin, you can wear almost anything. Brown/black/burgundy pennies, cap toes, split toes....


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## Luckycharmboi2 (May 30, 2009)

I have that Press poplin suit, and usually wear a pair of Alden burgundy cap toes with it. Even wear the occasional madras tie with it. (Have never worn a bow with it, though). I, however, am NOT a summer associate. 

Until you are well-established, you should definitely pass on the bow ties, odd color pants, and any spectators. You should definitely stick with conservative navy, black and gray for suits, and black or cordovan shoes. Depending on the firm culture, you might not want to wear any blazers/sport coats. I never wore a blazer or sport coat in my first 5 years in practice.

With the legal job market what it currently is, you do NOT want to be known as the firm "dandy," or worse yet the firm "character," although both of those roles might well suit you, and serve you well, further on down the road.

Good luck.


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

Thanks for the response, luckycharm. You obviously approve of the suit generally because you own it, but am I correctly reading you as saying it might be a bit much for a guy there for the summer?

I have little desire to be the firm fop or dandy. No seersucker, reds, bows, ridiculous affectations here, but I do realize that the olive summer suit is a little on the edge. Very conservative, yes -- but it also stands out in a sea of navys and grays.


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## Luckycharmboi2 (May 30, 2009)

I do own the suit, and I live in a very warm climate. That said, even in a warm southern climate, you don't see a lot of summer suits in the law firm culture, although you would probably see more in the southeast. I never tried to wear one until I had several years under my belt. It's still a bit of an anomaly at the courthouse, but I've never been ridiculed (although a few of my friends have perhaps gently ribbed me over it)

You can probably get away with it as long as you pair it with conservative items, such as the shoes, tie, and shirts. Paired with an OCBD, some dark conservative shoes and a conservative rep tie would probably be ok for a summer associates. I'd steer clear of "novelty" ties (ie. ties with little pictures on it), spectator shoes (two-tone) or an overly wild shirt. If you're looking for some inexpensive, but serviceable shirts, Brooks Bros. has the best OCBD (3 for $200) and TM Lewin is almost always having a shirt sale of some sort (got 4 for $120 a few weeks back, but stick to the poplins).

Generally speaking, you'll find that a great many lawyers put very little attention into their clothing. They have a few suits (which might be quite expensive), a few shirts, and a few ties which they pair rather interchangeably and without much thought. That is probably more the rule, than the exception. The exception make a real effort to pair the right things. As a summer associate, you want to appear conservative, clean and neat, and that's about it. Being a dandy won't get you hired, and can be a bit of a turn off, especially when they're more interested in your ability to work long hours early on.


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

Thanks for another great and helpful reply, luckycharmboi. I may end up picking up the Press suit regardless as I've got two summer weddings in the South this year and know there are many more to come. Might hold off on wearing it in the office, though, as I'm generally a pretty cautious dude.


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

*Watch?*

I'm obnoxiously bumping this again with a quick question; I have another one to ask once I find some patterns online to show you-all.

But for now --

I've never worn watches, but I think with a nice old 'real' job this summer (or as real as being a summer associate can be) I'm going to pick one out so I don't have to be glancing at my daggone cell phone constantly.

I'd like to get something inexpensive right now. I love the way the basic Timexes (Timices!?) look with a basic band. My major question: is a basic watch with a ribbon band too informal for the office? I'm not doing anything in DC or NYC this summer, but rather am working for a grand old corporate firm in my small, somewhat rural home state. I say this just to point out that I'm not going to be in a particularly oppressive work environment (sartorially, at least), so what Robert E. Lee VII would deem acceptable is not of the utmost importance. Still, I would like to look nice and situation appropriate.

If ribbons are fine, any colors to seek/avoid?

If they're not, any more suggestions for an inexpensive, work appropriate watch?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

M. Morgan said:


> I'm obnoxiously bumping this again with a quick question; I have another one to ask once I find some patterns online to show you-all.
> 
> But for now --
> 
> ...


Ribbons absolutely fine. Any color. Don't worry -- wear with confidence.
Cheers,
Mike


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## yossarian (Apr 17, 2007)

I have worked at large corporate firms in NYC and elsewhere and I think you could easily wear a ribbon watch at the office. When I worked in NYC, we didn't even have casual Fridays, but I wouldn't have had a problem wearing a ribbon band.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

Mike Petrik said:


> Ribbons absolutely fine. Any color. Don't worry -- wear with confidence.
> Cheers,
> Mike


Agreed. And I'd much rather see a kid with a ribbon band than an Ironman or other running watch.

Law firms tend to be conservative--a ribbon band is one of the few places you can safely step out.


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

smujd said:


> And I'd much rather see a kid with a ribbon band than an Ironman or other running watch.


Same here. Although in fairness, I'd rather see a kid wearing some 3/4" thick multi-function sport watch, than see him checking his cell phone whenever he needs to know the time.

Fortunately, a perfectly serviceable, appropriate quartz wrist watch can be had for under $50. (If you hate quartz, an automatic Seiko 5 will cost you under $100, on eBay.) There won't be anything horologically special about it, but it'll be more than adequate and cost about as much as a nice shirt or necktie.
-- 
Michael


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

*Suits and shoes (and a belt?)*

I didn't start this thread, but thanks to all who've helped me out a little here. I need help with just a couple more things, and I guess it doesn't _totally_ need to be from a help-me-get-an-offer perspective (though that's nice too); I guess I just want some more general help on rounding out a professional wardrobe. (How boring!)

So for the summer, here's what I've got:

-enough OCBDs and ties (say, three blue and five white shirts and maybe twenty ties)
-a 2-button darted navy Southwick suit that looks something like this but is a little heavy for summer, though it'll get worn some;
-a 3/2 gray sack Southwick suit that looks something like ;
-a 2-button darted gray Southwick suit that has a pattern to it that looks like this (blue and red running through it but darker gray and darted) and is beautiful but has something majorly wrong in the crotch area -- simply put, if I can't fix it, I won't wear it;
-black Bostonian captoes;
-black Bostonian tassel loafers;
-black belt;
-brown belt with goldish buckle that's fading;
-enough socks, boxers, and cases of wine to last me three months

1) Even if I can get the crotch on the third suit fixed, do I still need a fourth suit in solid gray? 
2) Can someone please recommend me more suitable shoes for the summer and beyond? Just looking for something non-black and would prefer a captoe, longwing, wingtip. If you think I should get two pairs of shoes, let me know. Even recommend a color, if you dare.
3) Belt to go with shoes from question 2.
4) General suggestions for other articles and for where I can get a deal this time of year. I don't mind spending some on this stuff, but if there are known sales or deals to be had, I'd like to jump on them.

Thanks in advance -- and sorry in advance if you find me working at your office. I can merely promise that it won't be my clothes that'll bother you.


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## yossarian (Apr 17, 2007)

Personally, I would have at least 4 suits in the rotation for the summer. I had at least that many as a summer associate. An extra suit won't go to waste if you stay the same size. I still have some suits from when I was in law school. 

As for shoes, I am not as much of a shoe guy as others on the board, but I would definitely buy a pair of cordovan shoes. I prefer to wear cordovan shoes with blue suits and black shoes with gray suits (the only suit colors I wear). I have always been a wingtip fan, so that is what I wear. But I think you could go with a longwing or captoe also. Personally, I don't like loafers, but I saw partners wear them all the time.


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

yossarian said:


> Personally, I would have at least 4 suits in the rotation for the summer. I had at least that many as a summer associate. An extra suit won't go to waste if you stay the same size. I still have some suits from when I was in law school.
> 
> As for shoes, I am not as much of a shoe guy as others on the board, but I would definitely buy a pair of cordovan shoes. I prefer to wear cordovan shoes with blue suits and black shoes with gray suits (the only suit colors I wear). I have always been a wingtip fan, so that is what I wear. But I think you could go with a longwing or captoe also. Personally, I don't like loafers, but I saw partners wear them all the time.


Uber-helpful -- thank you. I think I may pick up the medium gray J. Press number I mentioned somewhere in this thread and, if I'm feeling loose with my money, the poplin suit too, for the slew of summer weddings I'll be attending over the next five years or so.

Thanks again.


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## yossarian (Apr 17, 2007)

The South may be different, but when I was a summer associate in NYC, I would not have worn a poplin suit.


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## D&S (Mar 29, 2009)

Slightly different from being a summer associate, but how would the lawyers on this board weigh in on attire for a non-paid government job, as far as suits are concerned? Is tan poplin too much in a setting where I'm working for free?


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## 12345Michael54321 (Mar 6, 2008)

D&S said:


> how would the lawyers on this board weigh in on attire for a non-paid government job, as far as suits are concerned?


I'd need more details. A non-paid government job could be anything from interning for a State Senator who wants you to spend 6 weeks this summer observing operations at a variety of poultry farms, to volunteering as an unpaid driver/translator for various visiting foreign trade delegations.

It's not so much the "non-paid" part that determines what's appropriate; it's the "job" part.
-- 
Michael


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## M. Morgan (Dec 19, 2009)

Someone else above mentioned this as far as poplin suits go, and I'm inclined to agree with the two of you. I don't want to stick out, and I can't help but feel that khaki and tan stick out a little too much in a sea of grays and blues. I do, however, want a summer suit for other purposes -- so my visit to J. Press might convince me to pick up one.


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## Reds & Tops (Feb 20, 2009)

One gray, one blue, one khaki. If you can't afford all three, one gray and one blue. 

Assume you have a navy b already. 

Khaki is definitely on the conservative side of the fence. I would be willing to bet at least a drink on being able to find at least one khaki poplin suit in most firms during the summer. 

On a side note, I don't really buy the whole "don't dress loudly" thing. Loud means a lot of different things, and a khaki suit is definitely not loud. As long as you're not wearing pink pants and a bow tie to work, I think you're OK. 

That said, I'm wearing pink pants tomorrow.


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## ecox (Oct 25, 2009)

D&S said:


> Slightly different from being a summer associate, but how would the lawyers on this board weigh in on attire for a non-paid government job, as far as suits are concerned? Is tan poplin too much in a setting where I'm working for free?


I'm a lawyer. My first legal job ever (summer between 1L and 2L years) was an unpaid internship with DOJ's Criminal Division. I didn't wear tan poplin, but I did wear olive poplin once in a while. Federal legal jobs are actually pretty formal. Usually there's no casual Fridays. I suggest that you wear dark suits for the first week to get a feel for the office. Then that weekend go suit shopping if you need something more causal.

-Erik


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