# I saw the new "Fitzgerald" 1818 suit at Brooks today



## JamesR (May 23, 2006)

This is the suit that Brooks has created for the Fall that is supposedly inspired by the suit styles worn during the Kennedy administration. Knowing that it's designed by Thom Browne, who is more of a hipster chic designer who is inspired by trad designs rather than a true trad designer, I wanted to see which way the suit would lean in terms of style - trad or "retro trendy" trad. Here are the details:

Jacket - darted, 2 button, narrow lapels (this feature I liked), high armholes, tight fit around the shoulders, single vent, 1/2 canvassed (I think).

Pants - flat front, slanted pockets, tapered legs.

Fabric pattern - only 2 so far: a black pin stripe and a medium grey. The salesman said that there may be more on the way, but Brooks is hesitant since it is a dramatic departure for them, so they're going to do a slow roll out and see how customers respond.

My conclusion - I felt that the suit leans more towards "retro trendy" trad rather than true trad. Others may disagree, but that was the impression I got. They seem to be selling well, however. They were already sold out of the 38-40R.


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## Joe Tradly (Jan 21, 2006)

JamesR said:


> a black pin stripe


Ok, I'm having the hardest time trying to get the guy with the big gaping open mouth.

so there: [Big gaping open mouth guy]

JB


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## misterman (Feb 3, 2005)

*thom browne?*

designed a suit for brooks brothers?



JamesR said:


> This is the suit that Brooks has created for the Fall that is supposedly inspired by the suit styles worn during the Kennedy administration. Knowing that it's designed by Thom Browne, who is more of a hipster chic designer who is inspired by trad designs rather than a true trad designer, I wanted to see which way the suit would lean in terms of style - trad or "retro trendy" trad. Here are the details:
> 
> Jacket - darted, 2 button, narrow lapels (this feature I liked), high armholes, tight fit around the shoulders, single vent, 1/2 canvassed (I think).
> 
> ...


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## JamesR (May 23, 2006)

> designed a suit for brooks brothers?


That's what I understand.


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## misterman (Feb 3, 2005)

*did they pay him?*

where did you hear this information from?



JamesR said:


> That's what I understand.


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## JamesR (May 23, 2006)

> where did you hear this information from?


I read it in a men's magazine, possibly GQ, last spring. I could have read it incorrectly, but I don't think I did, and if I did, I stand corrected - I certainly have no reason to make something like that up. I tried a search on the web, but nothing came up.

Ultimately more important was what I actually saw in the store and I was a bit unimpressed. I'll probably go have another look at the suit.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I hadn't heard the Thom Browne part, either. We need confirmation of this. The does not mention it.


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## WaWa (May 6, 2006)

In which BB store did you see the Fitzgerald? I called my local BB on Thursday to see if they would be getting it and they were clueless, as usual.

Only pinstripe and medium gray? What about solid postmaster blue?


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I found this:

"To the uninitiated, Thom Browne’s flood-watch trousers and skinny jackets are geek revisited. But his shrunken preppy look is having a ripple effect—see Brooks Brothers’ newest suit silhouette, the Fitzgerald, with its high armhole, slim cut, and skinnier pant,"

here:


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## JamesR (May 23, 2006)

> In which BB store did you see the Fitzgerald? I called my local BB on Thursday to see if they would be getting it and they were clueless, as usual.


346 Madison and 5th Ave. stores in NY.



> Only pinstripe and medium gray? What about solid postmaster blue?


Those were the only two I saw in the stores. I asked a salesman at both places and they said that they had only 2 patterns available so far. Like I said, one of the salesmen said they were rolling them out gradually, so maybe the solid postmaster blue will be arriving in a couple of weeks.

One other thing - the salesman at the 5th Ave. store said that they are all doing "training sessions" this week to get information on all the new styles for this fall. Perhaps that's why your salesman seemed clueless.


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## WaWa (May 6, 2006)

rojo said:


> I found this:
> 
> "To the uninitiated, Thom Browne's flood-watch trousers and skinny jackets are geek revisited. But his shrunken preppy look is having a ripple effect-see Brooks Brothers' newest suit silhouette, the Fitzgerald, with its high armhole, slim cut, and skinnier pant,"
> 
> here:


Thanks for the link. From that short blurb I could not tell whether NewYork Metro was saying that Thom Brown helped design the Fitzgerald or whether Browne was simply being attributed with inspiring BB's retro look. Seems to me that, since BB made at least some of JFK's suits, they could simply resort to their archives for the correct pattern, etc. But what do I know?

Anyway, I think it's good that such a mainstream like BB is trying something different. I mean, let's face it, the silhouette, lapel width, cut and style of the "acceptable" business suit in America hasn't changed in 30 years.


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## Joe Frances (Sep 1, 2004)

*An Old design? A New Design "inspired" by an old design?*

OK. Is this a reintroduction of something BB made DURING the Kennedy years or something that is Thom Brown-ish that is supposed to be "inspired" by something BB made during the Kenedy years?

Joe


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

Polo: "Congressman" model


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

WaWa said:


> I mean, let's face it, the silhouette, lapel width, cut and style of the "acceptable" business suit in America hasn't changed in 30 years.


You make it sound like that's a bad thing.

Edit: On reflection, I realize that 30 years goes back to 1976. Things _have_ changed. You must be too young to rememember the wide lapels of the mid-1970s and the much narrower ones of the 1980s.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

It's darted?? I had a message from my salesman at BB on my phone today that the Fitzgerald was in stock, and I was looking forward to going by tomorrow to check it out. Now that I know it is darted, I won't bother.


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## JamesR (May 23, 2006)

> OK. Is this a reintroduction of something BB made DURING the Kennedy years or something that is Thom Brown-ish that is supposed to be "inspired" by something BB made during the Kenedy years?


What I saw was definitely not a reintroduction of something BB made during the Kennedy years. In fact, the salesman described it as an "updated" version of the old BB suits of the early 1960s.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Thom Browne designing for Brooks. That is very interesting...I have to see this suit.


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## JamesR (May 23, 2006)

> It's darted?? I had a message from my salesman at BB on my phone today that the Fitzgerald was in stock, and I was looking forward to going by tomorrow to check it out. Now that I know it is darted, I won't bother.


Definitely darted and to my eye it was more darted than normal - a very skinny cut. Maybe that's the way they wore them in those days - I do remember seeing pictures of Mercury astronauts and such wearing fairly skinny suits. Nevertheless, I even mentioned to the saleman that I thought Kennedy only wore sack suits (albeit 2 button ones), but he said that pictures of him indicate that he wore darted jackets as well.


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## familyman (Sep 9, 2005)

Ok, it's not a trad suit, let's just get that out of the way first. 
With that established, I don't think it's a bad thing. BB is going to sell darted suits, lots of them. The Fitzgerald sounds like a slim suit that is very much based on suits from the past, possibly at least inspired by suits they themselves used to cut. It's also a fairly trendy cut right now. Is it so bad that younger men might want to head to BB to look at suits? Is it so bad that 22 year old graduates might mention to each other that BB has a great interview suit? They're well constructed garments in a fairly classsic cut. I for one would like BB to be a store that is thought highly of by men of all ages and maybe this will help without corrupting them too far into the ever changing world of fashion.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Might as well post the photos from the online Esquire article:


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

I mostly agree with familyman's sentiments above. Glad to see BB embrace the thin guys.

While I like the thought of a slim cut suit, with narrow lapels, and a high button stance ala JFK (and unlike many, I can live with darts), looking at the picture in esquire, the shoulders look rather unnatural. The picture almost suggests that the suit has more of a roped shoulder appearance. That is too bad.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Venturing into a BB over the weekend, the new Fall line looks good. With each season, I find more and more that looks good.

Regarding the Fitzgerald, I thought it was to be a 2 button non-darted suit? Either way, the quality overall is improving.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I think it works both ways. 

On the one hand, younger customers should aspire to wear grown-up suits now that they're out of school. Join the workforce and stop acting and dressing like a kid (I know, that goes over like fingernails on a chalkboard with many of them). 

On the other hand, Brooks Brothers has long carried, going back to at least circa 1960, a line of clothing designed to appeal to younger customers and cut to fit them. This was called University Shop during the 1960s but revamped and renamed Brooksgate in the early 1970s.


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## WaWa (May 6, 2006)

Tom Buchanan said:


> I mostly agree with familyman's sentiments above. Glad to see BB embrace the thin guys.
> 
> While I like the thought of a slim cut suit, with narrow lapels, and a high button stance ala JFK (and unlike many, I can live with darts), looking at the picture in esquire, the shoulders look rather unnatural. The picture almost suggests that the suit has more of a roped shoulder appearance. That is too bad.


You know, I did not notice those potentially roped shoulders before. Gads, if that's what they've done to the "JFK-Style" suit then it is not a JFK-Style suit. One of the appealing things about Kennedy's look was the soft-shouldered minimalist syling of the jacket which made you think of the man rather than the suit. Roped shoulders would be a real blunder.

Can any eye witnesses confirm or deny the roped shoulder question?


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## abc123 (Jun 4, 2006)

Looks fine, and I too am glad to see more options for us underfed folks. But black pinstripe? Black pinstripe!?


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Thom Browne designing for Brooks...


....I think actually Thom Browne designs, and I use that word loosely, for PeeWee Herman. Jackets that are too tight and too short, and pants that are at least 1-1/2" too short look ridiculous no matter how much one pays for them. 

Even if one were to admire the overall silhouette and fabrications of Mr. Browne's offerings, my understanding is that he would refuse to make the suit for you if you specified it to fit in any way other than his "style". 

To each his (or her) own but I don't get the fascination with expensive clothes that look like they've either shrunk or previously belonged to one's larger sibling.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I love Brooksfan.


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## sunnisalafi (Feb 20, 2005)

I've stopped worrying about Brooks Brothers and hoping for some great comeback to the glory years. I have other places like O'Connell's, Press, Andover Shop, Eljo's, ect. that I'm more enthusiastic about, and cater to my admittedly narrow taste. So to hell with B2.

I view them now in the same way I view Polo....I'll still pick up some stuff from them on sale here and there, or a few things that I really can't get anywhere else. But, I don't have any real affection for them. They're just a faceless corporate giant whose salesman are usually clueless, and who (allegedly) selected Thom Browne to design suits for them (Did they lose their archives???).


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

sunnisalafi said:


> ...and who (allegedly) selected Thom Browne to design suits for them (Did they lose their archives???).


Yes, I think this is now reaching urban myth status. I've yet to see any proof of it. All we have is a mention in a mag that Browne is having a ripple effect that has even reached Brooks, which is an idea I'm sure Browne would never have promulgated himself.


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## JamesR (May 23, 2006)

So the focus of this thread that I started seems to have turned to whether or not Thom Browne was in fact involved in the designing of the BB "Fitzgerald" suit. I've been feeling badly about the possibility of spreading misinformation - as I had stated, that was certainly not my intention - so I've spent the past day since starting this thread trying to get a hold of the buyer at BB that handles men's suits to get the definitive answer. It's been difficult to get a hold of him, but I just got off the phone with another buyer and she stated that she is NOT aware of Mr. Browne's involvement with the design of the "Fitzgerald". Let me also add that she is not the buyer for men's suits (she's the buyer for the boys dept.), but I think she would know. She has left a message with the mens suit buyer to verify and I will follow up.

In the meantime, I would like to state a couple of things:

- If what she told me is true, my apologies again.
- I am 100% certain that I read in a mens fashion/style magazine (sadly I can't recall which) last spring of Mr. Browne's involvement in the design of the suit, so I am tempted to say that the misreporting began there.
- For me, the mentioning of Mr. Browne was an aside to the main point - the style of the suit. No matter who designed it, I still feel the style of the "Fitzgerald" is a departure from the original trad look of the Kennedy period and is more in line with a "retro trendy" look (albeit in a more subdued manner) that Thom Browne has recently popularized. Others may disagree, but I felt there is a "costume" aspect to the suit.

I'm hoping this will put any rumors to rest.


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## Foghorn (Feb 2, 2005)

Brooks offering a "novelty" suit, we may as well write them off & forget them.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Foghorn said:


> Brooks offering a "novelty" suit, we may as well write them off & forget them.


You really should not look at in those terms.

These suits are not going to be trendy like Thom Browne. Rather, they will offer a different sillouette, one that customers are wanting. A larger brand can't simply sell one cut of a sack suit, one cut will not fit all. Brooks has always introduced different styles. Otherwise you are only allowing Brooks to remain what it was at some impressionable stage that now is your reference point. What would you have said when they first offered the button down polo collar?


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> What would you have said when they first offered the button down polo collar?


"It's about time!"


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I think that if Thom Browne really had designed this personally, rather than just influencing the design, the Brooks marketing literature attendant with the roll-out would feature his name. If Brooks paid him what would surely be a large fee to design something, instead of just borrowing some of his ideas, why would they soft-pedal his involvement when it came time to sell the things?


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## Hard2Fit (May 11, 2005)

*Here you go. . .*










https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ction_Id=418&Product_Id=1080446&Parent_Id=216


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## WaWa (May 6, 2006)

Can't make up my mind based upon that one photo. For the full effect, the model should have worn a forward point collar and a narrow BB University tie.

Happened into the Cincinatti BB today -- they didn't have any Fitzgerald models -- but the sales girl has ordered one for me, gray. Curious that the BB web site only offers the black pinstripe. 

Thanks for the heads up.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

In response to the full photo, I'll give my opinions. For one thing, it certain is not the same suit that JFK wore. In fact, if the two suits were compared out of context, I would imagine that most uninformed persons would not make the connection. On the other hand, it does not bare much resemblence to a Thom Browne suit either (which is probably a good thing). So, in conclusion, is this a Trad suit? No. Is it a complete monstrosity? No, not that either. But regardless of how one may feel about darts, who decided that black pinstripe was the best introductory fabric for this line of suits??


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

WaWa said:


> For the full effect, the model should have worn a forward point collar and a narrow BB University tie.


I couldn't agree more.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

One thing I noticed about the new 1818's and GF suits (while in the Houston store) was the subtle pic stitching on the lapels. This offers a nice finished look. I was disappointed when the OTR GF models eliminated this when they first switched to Greenfield.

While I can't recall if the suits were labeled Fitzgerald or Madison (the other new name I believe) there were more fabrics.  Overall they looked nice, and a step above the standard fare.


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## EastVillageTrad (May 12, 2006)

Though I haven't seen it in person, yet, I heard the Fitzgerald is a fused jacket. I won't pay $900 for a fused suit.

Call me crazy, but you can do better for the money, say 2 Brooksease on sale, or other items.....


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## joeyzaza (Dec 9, 2005)

Here is the link to the BB website https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ction_Id=418&Product_Id=1080446&Parent_Id=216. 
I may have to stop by and check them out this week and maybe purchase one. I had planned on picking up a few suits this fall.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

They have a new mini catalogue for the new 1818 suits. They make them look pretty good actually. I'd recommend picking one up before forming any conclusion. They had a stack of them on the 6th floor of the 346 store. 

I can't remember if the Fitzgerald was darted or not, I had thought it was not but do not have the booklet with me. I believe that each of the new models - Fitzgerald, Madison and Regent - were available in four cloths. And with each model, some fabrics are available with plain front pants. 

I liked the Madison more than the Fitzgerald - the picture they had of it actually has me considering wearing a vest with a suit - and a vest with lapels at that. 

I should note that even is Thom Browne were involved (which I doubt) the suits are far more Brooks than fashion-y. 

I'm almost certain that they are fused so I don't think that any of them are a reasonable deal - especially since, for the same price, you could get a correctly made (i.e. canvassed) suit at Paul Stuart - but I think that many will find the style more appealing than the shapeless, undistinguished style of so many of Brooks current offerings.

Edit: I feel compelled to point out that well-made suits should be generally be darted and that plain front pants do not look good with suit jackets.


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## Tucker (Apr 17, 2006)

Cantabrigian said:


> Edit: I feel compelled to point out that well-made suits should be generally be darted and that plain front pants do not look good with suit jackets.


Thanks for the reminder - it's about time for me to hop on over to bimmerforums.com and let them know that the Japanese generally make better automobiles. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Tucker said:


> Thanks for the reminder - it's about time for me to hop on over to bimmerforums.com and let them know that the Japanese generally make better automobiles. :icon_smile_wink:


After reading Harris's comments on A&S again, I believe that there's hope for even the most dogmatic trad... :icon_smile:


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## JamesR (May 23, 2006)

Squadron A said:


> Though I haven't seen it in person, yet, I heard the Fitzgerald is a fused jacket. I won't pay $900 for a fused suit.





Cantabrigian said:


> I'm almost certain that they are fused so I don't think that any of them are a reasonable deal - especially since, for the same price, you could get a correctly made (i.e. canvassed) suit at Paul Stuart


I was of the understanding that all 1818 suits are 1/2 canvassed.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Cantabrigian said:


> Edit: I feel compelled to point out that well-made suits should be generally be darted and that plain front pants do not look good with suit jackets.


How exactly do darts contribute to a suit being well made? A slight bit of shaping aside, all I feel they contribute is an ugly line on each side of the jacket.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

JamesR said:


> I was of the understanding that all 1818 suits are 1/2 canvassed.


Any fusing (and the accompanying stiffness and potential for bubbling) in my mind a fused coat makes.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> How exactly do darts contribute to a suit being well made? A slight bit of shaping aside, all I feel they contribute is an ugly line on each side of the jacket.


I had asked the same myself on the London Lounge and here is Len Logsdail's response. I believe that Len can be considered a reliable source of information on how suits ought to be made - to say the very least:



Leonard Logsdail said:


> Yes, there is an advantage to having darts in the front of a coat. By supressing the fabric in the waist area it has the result of givng the client a waist, but more importantly, it becomes a functional reality. By taking in fabric at the waist, when the dart finishes in the chest area, it creates a pocket of fabric. This fabric helps with a drape look, but also helps conceal anything that is put into the inbreast pockets.
> 
> If a coat is cut too clean across the chest area, anything you put in the breast pockets will cause it to bulge out. The skill of the bespoke tailor it to create a garment that not only looks good, but is functional aswell.
> 
> ...


Darts aren't the best looking thing but they do allow for a suit with a more distinguished silhouette that - as Len notes - is more practical.

I think it is worth discussing what really makes a Trad suit. Personally, I don't think Trad is or ought to be about small anachronistic styling details but rather about the general type of clothes that are purchased and how they are viewed.

I would submit that a fused J Press or Brooks Brothers sack, 3-2 suit with plain front trousers in a cheap fabric is much less trad than a darted, pleated, true 3-button bespoke suit in a durable H Lesser or Smiths fabric. Or even a Paul Stuart suit in the same style.

I think that Trad is more properly about durability, quality and classic style than it is about the number of seams on a coat.

I know that others disagree.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

Cantabrigian said:


> I think it is worth discussing what really makes a Trad suit. Personally, I don't think Trad is or ought to be about small anachronistic styling details but rather about the general type of clothes that are purchased and how they are viewed.
> 
> I would submit that a fused J Press or Brooks Brothers sack, 3-2 suit with plain front trousers in a cheap fabric is much less trad than a darted, pleated, true 3-button bespoke suit in a durable H Lesser or Smiths fabric. Or even a Paul Stuart suit in the same style.
> 
> ...


Wow that is an interesting perspective--ceratainly food for thought. I would _not_ be inclined to wholeheartedly _disagree_ with your thesis, though I'm not sure if I am the best proponent of trad to have on your side. Though I must say that by and large that is how I attempt to clothe myself and I consider it "trad". This could prove very interesting. I will be interested in what others say.

Allen


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## WaWa (May 6, 2006)

*For what it's worth...*

Well, I tried on the Fitzgerald model at my local BB today. It's really cool -- no roped shoulders -- looks like the one JFK wore. My problem, however, is deciding whether to get a 42 long or a 42 regular. The measureement from the rear top of the collar to the tail end is 32 inches for the regular and 33.5 for the long. I think that makes it about 1/2 inch shorter than the typical regular/long length of the rest of the 1818 line. I'm 6'0, so I've always been borderline between a long and a regular -- so I have a decision to make.

If I can't decide, I'll have a couple comparative pictures taken at BB, post it, and ask for your well informed opinions.

Anyway, it doesn't look costumy at all. It looks vintage, slim, and, I think, professional. As a lawyer, I have no problem wearing it to court.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Allen said:


> Wow that is an interesting perspective--ceratainly food for thought. I would _not_ be inclined to wholeheartedly _disagree_ with your thesis, though I'm not sure if I am the best proponent of trad to have on your side. Though I must say that by and large that is how I attempt to clothe myself and I consider it "trad". This could prove very interesting. I will be interested in what others say.
> 
> Allen


Dare I say, many American patrons of Savile Row grew up on BB/Trad, and continue to wear/buy both.
Cheers


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

Just returned from 346 where I picked up a Golden Fleece for $500.
Subtle houndstooth pattern, side vents, ticket pocket, and most importantly darts.
I may grab a "Fitzy" when they are on sale for $250 a few months from now.
Cheers


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

Cantabrigian said:


> I had asked the same myself on the London Lounge and here is Len Logsdail's response. I believe that Len can be considered a reliable source of information on how suits ought to be made - to say the very least:
> 
> Darts aren't the best looking thing but they do allow for a suit with a more distinguished silhouette that - as Len notes - is more practical.
> 
> ...


I completely disagree, though it's an interesting notion: short of having too many items in one inside breast pocket, I don't think that anyone can tell if they're in use or not.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Whatever his connection to the "Fitzgerald," Thom Browne will indeed be designing a collection of men and women's clothing and accessories for BB for the fall of 2007...or at least so says today's WWD.

https://www.wwd.com/notavailable/do...cleId=108721&articleType=A&industryKw=fashion


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

knickerbacker said:


> I completely disagree, though it's an interesting notion: short of having too many items in one inside breast pocket, I don't think that anyone can tell if they're in use or not.


Seems as though it would be difficult to tell whether or not it's necessary unless you have a non-fused undarted coat.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

The Regent in 3 button/side vent looks like the deal when sale time comes. If only it had a ticket pocket


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## GBOLLOZOS (Nov 15, 2005)

*Thom Browne*

Thom Browne will be designing a 50 piece collection due out for FALL 2007. Just google Thom Browne and Brooks Brothers. There have been many press releases about him and BB this week.


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