# Hickey Freeman Milburn - FUSED NOT FULLY CANVASSED



## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Just wanted to go on the record here since I had a bit of trouble getting a definitive answer on this one.

I ordered the blazers from N-M Last Call at 30% off the sale price, which came to ~$335.

This is a second blue blazer they had on sale, a month or two ago they had one that a member here bought which turned out to be the fully canvassed 90-10 wool-cashmere Beacon model.

So I got a couple of Milburns in today in two sizes with the idea I could return the one that doesn't fit.

But alas, the Milburns are fused. The NM website says they are canvassed, which is an error. BTW the Milburn label is white, the Beacon is dark brown.

So I'll take them back.

I also ordered one of the other ones which did turn out to be the Beacon, and it is indeed canvassed with no fusing. I may or may not keep it as it is a 48R and I _really_ think I would fit better in a 48L. (They were out of the 48L when I ordered.)

OK I'll go update the other thread about the NM sale, just wanted this to have its own thread as I said so it will be easily found on googling.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

So, you weren't able to pull the fusible from a free floating canvas chest piece? If so, that would indicate half canvassing. The fusible still goes down the entire front of the jacket of course.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

I am beginning to wonder whether the Milburn is a made-for-outlet line from H-F. STP seems to be selling a LOT of Milburn suits and jackets these days (at about the same price as you mention, give or take, depending upon the sale of the moment.)

If this is the case, it would be quite a disappointment. For a time, it was safe to merely avoid the diffusion line, and be pretty well assured of a predictable level of quality. 

If the British M&A firm and their Indian rag trade partners, who bought Hartmarx out of bankruptcy, think that flooding the market with second-rate apparel, disguised as mainline, is the way way to turn the venerable old firm around, I fear they may be sadly mistaken. Perhaps their only concern is turning a profit in their stated target: emerging markets (read third world) where it's possible that cachet trumps quality. That in itself (if done at the expense of neglecting current markets) is rather depressing to see, but if they have deliberately chosen to lower the standards of the US made, US-market merchandise (or worse yet, have decided to put out a second line that's disguised as mainline) I fear we may be seeing the beginning of the creation of a "Florsheim" of the garment trade.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Dr. Z,

You may have been tricked by their nomenclature. True, a piece of canvass is sewn as a floating insert into the chest of top quality non fused jackets. But canvass may also be inserted into fused jackets. In other words, fused and canvass are not necessarily mutually exclusive. This is the hall of fame article on the subject.https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?86160-Canvas-half-canvas-etc.-explained

Regards,

Alan


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> I fear we may be seeing the beginning of the creation of a "Florsheim" of the garment trade.


A very nice turn of phrase.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

arkirshner said:


> Dr. Z,
> 
> You may have been tricked by their nomenclature. True, a piece of canvass is sewn as a floating insert into the chest of top quality non fused jackets. But canvass may also be inserted into fused jackets. In other words, fused and canvass are not necessarily mutually exclusive. This is the hall of fame article on the subject.https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?86160-Canvas-half-canvas-etc.-explained
> 
> ...


Yes understood they are playing word games with us, as I figured out eg. the Wiz suits, same thing.

But in any case this one is fused and there isn't canvas down below. But even if it were canvassed all the way down I don't think I'd keep it at that price.

Which is OK, I'll just return them.

The other one, the Beacon, is quite nice, better material too. But the 48R, maybe it is just a smidge short for me. I'm just shy of 6'1", yeah in the Milburns that holds true, the 48L fits me better.

So what'll I do with the Beacon, I think it was an outstanding value and I hate to just return it. I also hate hassling with the post office, don't know how many 48R people we have here on AAAC.

Guess I'll sleep on it for now.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

arkirshner said:


> A very nice turn of phrase.


However, perhaps a sad turn of events.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

What'll I do with the Beacon?

Pretty nice jacket but I think it would fit me better in 48L rather than 48R.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

A few months ago I contact STP about their HF suits and was told they were Milburnes and that Milburns were half-canvassed. This week I finally pulled the trigger on a STP HF, expecting to get a Milburn. What I got was a "Lindsey." It arrived yesterday. My first thought was, WTF is this? It might be half-canvassed, but I really can't tell. I did some googling and saw the one poster on AAAC said it was half. ALl the people who were asking about the Lindsey said they had gotten it at Last Call, The Rack, or STP. To me, that says that the Lindsey at least is clearly a diffusion line. I'm really pissed. I HATE diffusion lines, because I consider it subterfuge on the part of both the manufacturer (HF) and the Retailer (STP, in this case.) I forgive Brooks its 346 stuff because there's a clear division there, with clearly separate distribution channels. So what of my Lindsey?

I paid $480 for it shipped, and I'm trying to decide if I got my money's worth. It's way better than the suit it is meant to replace, a POS Banana outlet number. Thus, it fills a requirement that urgently needs to be filled. It looks ok. THe fabric? OK, but only ok. I consider it inferior to my old Brooksease, which also needs replacing. The suit is certainly inferior to my one 1818 Saxxon. And way inferior to the fully canvassed HF blazer I picked up off of Ebay.

For me, the question is, for what I paid, is it ok? Since I can't afford an 1818...or, perhaps I should buy a JV, and decide which I like more, and return the other?


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## juffman (May 19, 2010)

I bought one yesterday in Navy with a pinstripe at Last Call. They are half canvassed. I can tell by the pinch test. I went with a 40S, 6" drop, 34 waste. The price says $1495 original, marked down to $599. With a 30% coupon, I got it for $400. The fit is excellent. The jacket does not have those overly padded shoulders which I hate, and the suit looks really nice and seems to fit really well. I am going to take it to my tailer Sofio's next week to see what they think and possibly have the sleeves shortened and the pants tailored if I decide to keep it. The fabric isn't the best, it's definitely not super 120's, but I think it's a decent suit for the $400 price. It says "worsted wool" but no thread count. I wouldn't pay more for it than that though. 

In comparison, I also got a Ben Sherman at off 5th for around $330. It is fused, but the fabric is a bit nicer than the Hickey if you ask me. It has this really nice tight pin stripe pattern, and the fabric feels lighter and cooler. It is a more modern suit. I would guess it's super 110's. It's the king, slim fit line. I'm really a 39, so I try to find slimmer suits in size 40. The 38R was a drop 7 and the pants were way too tight on me. The 40S had my drop 7 waste size. 

So here I am with two suits, one has better fabric, more modern fit, but it's fused, the other is half canvassed, has a great traditional fit, but the fabric isn't the nicest. 

So the only negative thing I can say about the Milburn is I wish they used slightly better fabric on it, but I guess you have to step up to the next line for that. The problem is, the Milburn's are pretty easy to find, the Mahogany lines are harder to find and of course more expensive. 

Also got a killer Zegna tie at last call for around $50. It caught my eye and the wife told me I had to get it.


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## BluePincord (May 14, 2012)

This kind of ticks me off, because the description for the item specifically says 'Fully Canvassed.'

I know a little bit about this, because I was the one who found the original Beacon model on sale and posted about it in the Deals section here. Unlike all the other Hickey Freeman listings on lastcall, it said 'fully canvassed.' That's why I bought it, and it was indeed a fully canvassed Beacon.

Then, when Lastcall posted _another_ HF blazer with the description Fully Canvassed, I PMed a couple members who missed out on their sizes the first time to let them know. So now this turns out to be a Milburn, which I have seen in person at a Last Call retail store and it is most certainly only a half-canvassed jacket.

Bottom line is that lastcall made an error in their description of the item, and they should pay all costs to return it. I also plan to post a review on the lastcall site notifying other potential buyers of the bogus description.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

That is a good idea, BP, I had not thought of posting it on their site, though I was thinking of calling them during the week to let them know of their error.

I agree, the Beacon seems much superior to the Milburn, not just the canvassed vs fused, but also the material is much nicer and also lighter weight.

Still wondering if it is worth the effort to see if someone here would be interested in the 48R Beacon, I think I'm better off with the 48L. Ie. before returning it, because I think it was good value.

And I did appreciate you letting me know they had gone back on sale-sale. But it looks like they will be carrying the Milburn but no longer stocking the Beacon, as I was told by the saleslday, and also judging from the fact that the selection of Beacon sizes have gotten less and less.


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## BluePincord (May 14, 2012)

I know this question has come up a few times, and I do have some personal experience with the STP and NMLC Hickey Freeman models.

On both sites, the vast majority of the items are either the Lindsey or the Milburn model, and these are beyond the shadow of a doubt *half-canvassed** models. I have seen them in person at discount retailers, and there is no question as to the fusing. I feel almost certain these models are being made for the discount channels. They're not _bad _ suits, mind you, and they are made in America. But don't be fooled into thinking you're getting a $1,500 HF when you see one. The $600 price tag they usually carry is probably correct for their quality range.

* Like other members have said before, I detest the label 'half-canvassed,' and use it here only because it has become part of the lexicon. The term implies that only half of the suit front is fused, with the other half having a proper canvas. But in fact the entire suit front is fused, and there is a canvas chest piece added. So yes, only half the canvas is present, but be aware that *all* of the fusing is.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

I did just post a review on their site btw.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Anyone have a clue as to the difference between the Lindsey and the Milburn?


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## BluePincord (May 14, 2012)

tocqueville said:


> A few months ago I contact STP about their HF suits and was told they were Milburnes and that Milburns were half-canvassed. This week I finally pulled the trigger on a STP HF, expecting to get a Milburn. What I got was a "Lindsey." It arrived yesterday. My first thought was, WTF is this? It might be half-canvassed, but I really can't tell. I did some googling and saw the one poster on AAAC said it was half. ALl the people who were asking about the Lindsey said they had gotten it at Last Call, The Rack, or STP. To me, that says that the Lindsey at least is clearly a diffusion line. I'm really pissed. I HATE diffusion lines, because I consider it subterfuge on the part of both the manufacturer (HF) and the Retailer (STP, in this case.) I forgive Brooks its 346 stuff because there's a clear division there, with clearly separate distribution channels. So what of my Lindsey?
> 
> I paid $480 for it shipped, and I'm trying to decide if I got my money's worth. It's way better than the suit it is meant to replace, a POS Banana outlet number. Thus, it fills a requirement that urgently needs to be filled. It looks ok. THe fabric? OK, but only ok. I consider it inferior to my old Brooksease, which also needs replacing. The suit is certainly inferior to my one 1818 Saxxon. And way inferior to the fully canvassed HF blazer I picked up off of Ebay.
> 
> For me, the question is, for what I paid, is it ok? Since I can't afford an 1818...or, perhaps I should buy a JV, and decide which I like more, and return the other?


My experience in handling the Milburns and Lindseys at discount retailers and one (which I returned) from STP is that they're probably on par with the Jack Victors and 1818s of the world. (Although I did see one navy Milburn at a NMLC that felt like it was made out of nylon.)

Like you, I hate diffusion lines, but to me the Sterling collection these two models belong to is more similar to Brooks Brothers' 1818s than to their 346 models. They are half canvassed and made in America, just like the 1818s. Too, they are sold only through discount channels, so in a way that is maybe more honest than Brooks.

I still don't care for the tactic, though, and particularly where HF quotes an MSRP identical to their Mahoganies. That just seems downright dishonest.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Just found this thread again, as I had seen a "Milburn" on ebay, but didn't remember exactly about this, so I googled it.

Anyway, the 48R I gave to a friend who is getting good use out of it.


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