# Help troubleshoot my bowtie



## Shoe City Thinker (Oct 8, 2012)

Never seems to come out right: either too lopsided, too loose, or overtakes the border between my shirt collar and jacket lapels. Looks like a clown tied it.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Look at the videos on Beau Ties, Ltd. Practice tying it on your thigh until you are comfortable and you get a nice looking knot. Then try it on your neck. Remember: it is not supposed to be too perfect so some variation is OK. 

This process took me double-digit hours over at least a week. 

PS -- your knot doesn't look so bad...


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## TradThrifter (Oct 22, 2012)

That looks good imo. Keep tying it untill you get your desired look, but it is ok if the tie is a bit asymmetrical. It isn't supposed to be perfect like a pre-tied bowtie would look.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

TradThrifter said:


> That looks good imo. Keep tying it untill you get your desired look, but it is ok if the tie is a bit asymmetrical. It isn't supposed to be perfect like a pre-tied bowtie would look.


That's true.


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## benjclark (Mar 14, 2012)

Lop-sided? It's panache!


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Shoe City Thinker said:


> Never seems to come out right: either too lopsided, too loose, or overtakes the border between my shirt collar and jacket lapels. Looks like a clown tied it.
> View attachment 7749


The line between sprezzatura and sloppy is a fine one I believe you eye isn't mistaken in observing that this could look better. I'd advise to reduce the length by half an inch to an inch (experiment and see what looks best). The front wings look acceptable in length (although a little long to my taste, but that's just me), but no fabric should show at the back. That amount of sprez no one can pull off in a bow tie.

Secondly, make sure your shirt collar fits well. If it does, sliding the bow to a centre position shouldn't be hard, especially if you tighten it gradually.


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## Shoe City Thinker (Oct 8, 2012)

Whereabouts should the knot sit within the tie space? Up high or midway? As a life-long wearer of the long necktie, I'm used to chinching the knot to the peak of the tie space. How tight should I be tying the bow?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Like a four in hand tie, it should sit as high as it can on the collar.

Most of my problems with this are solved by simply adjusting how much slack there is on the longer side and making sure the initial steps are nice and snug before forming the knot.


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## hardline_42 (Jan 20, 2010)

My first impression is that you need to shorten up the tie by at least an inch. The ends of the bow should be outside your eyes and inside your ears. In order to get the tie nice and high in the tie space, you should make it a habit to tie the initial half-hitch nice and snug as Jovan mentioned. The rest is just adjusting to taste. If the rear blade and loop stick out beyond the front, shorten the tie and vice versa. They should be as even as possible but a little bit of misalignment is acceptable and often preferred.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

^ This. I should qualify what I just posted by saying I've only worn a bow tie a few times, mostly for black tie. I'm no expert on it, but am quickly learning.


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

You came to the right place to look for advice on bow ties!


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Yep. Shorten it up a bit, center it in your collar, and spend a little more time "dressing" the knot. Good job on the dimples.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

Here's the problem: a bow tie generally sits best if it's adjusted to be a little shorter than the given neck measurement. But, it's incredibly difficult to tie a shortened bow tie when you're just learning how to do it.

The only main issue I see with that bow is that your right-hand single end is hanging out a bit. Just pull the left-hand loop a bit and keep it a bit "poofy" on that side. That should give you a bit of leeway until you get more comfortable tying it on a shorter setting.


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## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

I can't tell if this is your problem, but it may be. (It was mine.) There are two kinds of shoelace knots, only one of which makes for a good bowtie. You want to tie what's called a reef knot, not a granny knot. A granny knot will always be lopsided. Many sites explain the difference and it applies as well to ropes and shoelaces as to bowties.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

This is the best "how to" video I could find years back when I was struggling with the bow tie. Much better than Beau Tie's version, I think.


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## MidWestTrad (Aug 14, 2010)

+1 on the video above. That's what I learned from.


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## conductor (Mar 1, 2010)

This was the video that I learned from

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=OoUre0ugkmI&desktop_uri=/watch?v=OoUre0ugkmI


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Patrick06790 said:


> This is the best "how to" video I could find years back when I was struggling with the bow tie. Much better than Beau Tie's version, I think.


Really! I'll have to look at this. The one on Beau Tie Ltd really saved my hide.


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## Gimlet Eye (Aug 5, 2010)

Anthony Charton said:


> The front wings look acceptable in length (although a little long to my taste, but that's just me), but no fabric should show at the back.


I'm uncertain what you mean by this. Are you saying that the rear blades of the tie should not be visible beyond the front blades, or that the band should not be visible behind either, or something else entirely?


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## Anthony Charton (May 7, 2012)

Gimlet Eye said:


> Are you saying that the rear blades of the tie should not be visible beyond the front blades


I do mean this. An equal, balanced length between both blades and on either side is preferable IMO. In any case, the rear should not be longer than the front.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Also, that neck sizing guide sown into the adjuster for most bow ties is complete bubkis. I usually end up sizing down between an inch and two inches to get my bows to tie right.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

As others have said, shorten up the bow tie. This will make it a bit harder to tie but will fit your face better and not look so "clown-ish" - it doesn't really, your mind is exaggerating, but I know what you mean. 

Also, it looks as if you tried to tie it too tightly too early on. Keep it loose until you pull everything out at the end, that way you can adjust everything.


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## wfhoehn (Aug 13, 2012)

I had this problem with some of my ties and, as others have pointed out, it was because the tie was adjusted to be too long. You probably want to reduce it by at least half an inch, if not a little more. I've found that most of my ties have to be set at a half inch smaller than my neck size to tie correctly. 

The trick is to adjust the length so that the folded ends bend at exactly the midpoint of the flared section.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Patrick06790 said:


> This is the best "how to" video I could find years back when I was struggling with the bow tie. Much better than Beau Tie's version, I think.


Dead on right--that's the one I learned from, also.

As for length guides, Reuben is right, they are far from uniform. BB's are generally accurate, I've found, as are J. Press. RL is all over the place, Peter Blair tends to be too generous--you will look like a clown if you follow them. Cordial Churchman has none, which I suspect cuts the price of production will in no way affecting the quality of the product. You really don't need them.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

32rollandrock said:


> Cordial Churchman has none, which I suspect cuts the price of production will in no way affecting the quality of the product. You really don't need them.


Actually, I think what they do is much smarter - rather than have (what are mostly arbitrary) slits, it allows for much more precise length adjustment.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Reuben said:


> Also, that neck sizing guide sown into the adjuster for most bow ties is complete bubkis. I usually end up sizing down between an inch and two inches to get my bows to tie right.


Really? I've never had an issue with mine.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Jovan said:


> Really? I've never had an issue with mine.


Yup, but I also like a nice, tight knot on my bows.

Sent from beyond HEO using unknown means


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## rowanlane (Nov 12, 2013)

As far as the "lopsided" affect goes, you can usually just move the knot around without having to retie the whole tie.


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## Gimlet Eye (Aug 5, 2010)

Anthony Charton said:


> I do mean this. An equal, balanced length between both blades and on either side is preferable IMO. In any case, the rear should not be longer than the front.


Ah. Well in that case, I would beg to differ; I think that it's preferable for the front blades to be slightly narrower than the rear ones. I have three reasons for thinking this way; none of them are prescriptive but I think they're sound.

First, many think of the bow tie as being "traditional", but "tradition" is inherently subjective. Bow ties as most people think of them today were largely in use from about 1900 through the 1960s, after which they fell far out of favor and have since been regarded as an eccentricity if not an affectation. But bow ties that were less stiff, less symmetrical and less flat (but still recognizably bow ties) were widely in use from the 1840s through about 1900. Why should what was accepted as appropriate from 1900 through 1969 be covered under the aegis of "tradition", but not those from 1840 through 1900? It's the same length of time, so that isn't a factor.  And many other garments and accessories fell out of favor at roughly the same time as the bow tie (say, jumpsuits), but few would wear today for fear of ridicule. So I don't think that the "tradition" argument favoring the bow ties you refer to carries much weight.

Second, the visual image of bow ties of the sort you describe are not well-regarded by most people today. (That fact does not carry much weight either, but it suggests to me that public regard is not a compelling argument either way.) One significant reason for this is because the image in most people's minds today of a bow tie is that of a curiosity bordering on an absurdity. What bow tie image dominates our culture? Pee-Wee Herman? Clowns? David Suchet as Hercule Poirot? Some rapper? Hollywood-types on Oscar night? All of these share at least two traits: their ties *appear* to be pre-tied, and they are stiff, flat, the knot is too small, the blades too wide, and the front blades obscure the rear blades. They are invariably too perfect-looking.

If those today who wear hand-tied bow ties wish to dispel that image, nothing can do so quite as effectively as a tie that looks organic, less-than-perfect, and is the antithesis of flat, stiff and even.

Which brings me to my third defense: aesthetics. In my opinion, a bow tie with the front blades slightly narrower than the rear blades imparts volume and depth as well as demonstrating that the tie is indeed hand-tied. It allows just a bit more individuality and it effectively conveys that nonchalance that is the mark of something that's done so often that no attention need any longer be paid to it _being _done.

With a long tie, the rear blade not only serves no purpose, it might as well not exist below the convergence of the lapels. But with a bow tie, the rear blades are not only visible from the sides, they also provide structural support to the front blades. By revealing a little bit of them it reminds the observer that a bow tie is a *knot*, rather than merely a fabric confection. Of course, I'm against any excess or flashiness in achieving this effect.

I'd welcome other opinions, pro or con.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

^ The first two "reasons" are just silly, so I won't even bother addressing them. The third reason boils down to "because I like it that way," which nobody can argue with. Why not post some pics?


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## Gimlet Eye (Aug 5, 2010)

Topsider said:


> ^ The first two "reasons" are just silly, so I won't even bother addressing them. The third reason boils down to "because I like it that way," which nobody can argue with.


Why do I doubt that your opinion would be changed by my saying "the first two reasons are _not _silly"? Well, that's how changed my opinion is by you saying they _are_. I'm glad that people have different opinions but dismissing another's as "silly" is pretentious and ultimately, a weak position.

If you find factors of historical precedence, tradition and the public's perception "silly", I have to wonder why you care about bow ties, how you choose to wear them, or how others might. After all, you're only wearing such a thing because _someone else_ created it in a specific way -- a way you chose to approve of and now feel attached to. You've purchased Brand B rather than Brand A. There's nothing wrong with that but let's not pretend that you don't care about some specific set of qualities regarding bow ties. Where you got your opinions about those qualities is, I'd bet, at least partly informed by the past and by received opinion. Shall I dismiss them as "silly"? I wouldn't be so presumptuous.

The third reason does not necessarily boil down to "because I like it that way" any more than someone's opinion about say, the relative merits of a 60/40 OCBD from Wal-Mart versus a Sea Island cotton OCBD from Gitman is merely a matter of personal opinion. It _is_ possible to evaluate some things somewhat objectively; that's what critics do, and it's largely what's attempted by enthusiasts on discussion fora such as this. Except, of course, by those who simply dismiss other people's opinions as "silly".


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Gimlet Eye said:


> If you find factors of historical precedence, tradition and the public's perception "silly", I have to wonder why you care about bow ties, how you choose to wear them, or how others might.












This is how mine typically turn out. I like dimples. YMMV.










I expect you'd prefer this one, however (from this 2012 thread - https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?116842-The-Bowtie ), as the front blades came out shorter than the rear ones - purely unintentional on my part, but not worth a re-tie).


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## Roycru (Apr 13, 2011)

This YouTube video (as well as part two of this video) have a certain charm possibly lacking from some other YouTube videos. Pages 160-164 in "Dressing The Man" by Alan Flusser are also rather amusing....


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## Ivygrad71 (Mar 22, 2014)

Topsider said:


> This is how mine typically turn out. I like dimples. YMMV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks sharp to me and that's how mine look as well. I doubt that most people in todays society give a rats behind that I am wearing a bow tie. Much less are they concerning themselves with the rear blade width. I like to wear them and I honestly couldn't care less what others (girlfriend excluded) could think. And I like dimples as well!


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## Gimlet Eye (Aug 5, 2010)

I _do_ think the second looks better than the first, but to illustrate what I mean, take a look at these two pre-tied ties (from Charvet and from Brooks):


















Here's one from Gitman that's actually a self-tie:










All three look essentially the same -- tight, flat, almost perfect. If a man were to wear the Gitman tied like that, it would appear to most people with an educated eye, that he was wearing a pre-tied tie. Despite the fact that it's too asymmetrical, I vastly prefer this:










I would even advocate for slightly more difference between the width of the front and rear blades, but still -- it appears organic, it has depth, the fact that it's an actual _knot _is apparent, and few would mistake it for a pre-tied abomination.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

The first and last ones just look like crap. The second and third both look OK. Neither screams "pre-tied," IMO. In fact, they look pretty much the way mine do. 

I'm still waiting for you to post some pics of your own bow ties to illustrate your point. Until you do, I'm going to have to assume that you can't actually tie one.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Honestly, the fourth looks a lot more "pre-tied" than the third one does. 


Sent from beyond HEO using unknown means


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Reuben said:


> Honestly, the fourth looks a lot more "pre-tied" than the third one does.


The thing that makes the first and fourth look fake more than anything, IMO, is the almost perfectly vertical "knot." In most cases, this is because the bow isn't actually tied...it's fabricated. I suspect the BB bow (the second) is actually pre-tied, not pre-fab.

https://www.instructables.com/id/JEREMY-How-to-make-a-diy-pre-tied-bow-tie/

I'm not really sure why we're discussing pre-tied bows, anyway.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

I prefer the first without the rear blade sticking out but, really, there's no wrong answer. Pretty much the only wrong ways are too wide, too narrow or with the knot twisted. Other than that, let your freak flag fly.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

32rollandrock said:


> I prefer the first without the rear blade sticking out


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## Ivygrad71 (Mar 22, 2014)

Top you crack me up!


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

Am I the only one who usually has to go TTS or a tough bigger on the neck size to get the best knot?

In any case, nothing inspires wearing a bow tie like a bow tie thread.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Ivygrad71 said:


> Looks sharp to me and that's how mine look as well. I doubt that most people in todays society give a rats behind that I am wearing a bow tie. Much less are they concerning themselves with the rear blade width. I like to wear them and I honestly couldn't care less what others (girlfriend excluded) could think. And I like dimples as well!


Agreed. I'd bet 90% of adult males under age 65 have no idea how to tie their own bow tie. As long as the tie is in proportion to your face (i.e. not like a circus clown) and not sitting in a vertical position, it's all good.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

I refuse to ever wear a pre tied bow tie, but in the spirit of the Warren St. John quote, I personally don't care if the rest of the world thinks its pre-tied or not. I wear a bow tie for myself, just because I like knowing that I can tie one 

Also, obligatory pics:


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## Ivygrad71 (Mar 22, 2014)

Looking good Orange!!


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Ivygrad71 said:


> Looking good Orange!!


Thanks! Echoing what Tigerpac said, this thread is making me want to wear a few this week lol


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

orange fury said:


> I personally don't care if the rest of the world thinks its pre-tied or not.


Nicely done. I don't think anyone would confuse those with pre-tied.


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## Gimlet Eye (Aug 5, 2010)

Topsider said:


> The first and last ones just look like crap.


-because they don't look like pre-tied ties? Every tie that was ever tied until about 1880 was asymmetrical and not flat. Sorry, Mr. Brummell and M. le Comte de Montesquieu -- apparently, since your ties were not symmetrical, perfectly-formed and flat, they looked like crap.

Do you also believe that pocket squares / pocket handkerchiefs should be folded and pressed into perfectly even points?



Topsider said:


> The second and third both look OK. Neither screams "pre-tied," IMO.


--other than them being virtually indistinguishable. Pre-tied #2 actually has better dimples than self-tied #3; both look like they were popped out of a mold.

Here's what Alan Flusser wrote in "Style and the Man": "_A bow tie's style, especially its unmanufactured imperfection, rests on its celebration of the individual. A too-perfectly-knotted bow tie looks pre-packaged, measured, and ready to squirt._" He continues "_...the bow will avoid looking like the point of exclamation only if its style resides within its manipulated imperfection._" (p. 56)

Note that at no point does Flusser suggest that the front and rear blades should be equal in width.

In "Dressing the Man", Flusser wrote "_Askew enough to reflect its benefactor's handiwork, the bow's formation suggests a man in control of his environment, of his own style_." He goes on: "_Place a mathematically perfect, pre-tied bow under your chin and you forsake all individuality. The hand-tied bow's moody loops and unpredictable swirls give you that subtle insouciance, that desired aplomb._" (p. 161-2) Flusser shows just 3 photos in the section on bow ties: 2 small ones of le Corbusier wearing ties tied askew, and one full-page photo of Philippe Noiret whose tie style Flusser praises; incidentally, it's tied far more irregularly than my example #4.












Topsider said:


> I'm still waiting for you to post some pics of your own bow ties to illustrate your point. Until you do, I'm going to have to assume that you can't actually tie one.


Here you go. I only had a minute to tie something to demonstrate but I trust it conveys what I'm describing:


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Good post sir. 

It's funny, this whole thread I've kept returning in my mind's eye to that photo of Philippe Noiret in Flusser's book. And to teachers, professors and family members I've known over the years who wore bow ties with fabulous aplomb; each of whom tied it a bit differently. 

I personally like diamond point bow ties, which are intrinsically asymmetric and have depth because by their very nature you can see the back wings.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Gimlet Eye said:


> Here you go. I only had a minute to tie something to demonstrate but I trust it conveys what I'm describing:


Looks fine to me. Certainly nothing dramatically different from what others have showed. Your preference for shorter front blades is really just that...your preference.

While we're talking preferences, I'd opt for a point or button-down collar rather than a spread. I'm not going to quote anybody to support my point, though. I just think it would look better if the collar points didn't extend so far beyond the edges of the bow.

I also think Flusser's obviously-poorly-tied bow tie looks like an affectation. You know darn well he could do better than that.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

I personally think button downs look best with bow ties.


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## Ivygrad71 (Mar 22, 2014)

A man after my own heart! The British and the fashion crowd will disagree saying a button down collar is strictly a casual shirt. Complete rubbish in my book. All of my shirts are button down collars.


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## Gimlet Eye (Aug 5, 2010)

Topsider said:


> Looks fine to me. Certainly nothing dramatically different from what others have showed. Your preference for shorter front blades is really just that...your preference.


Yep. And Anthony Charton was expressing his preference for the rear blades not being visible past the front blades, with which I disagreed. I was never suggesting that having the front blades slightly narrower was correct, merely that his statement "_the rear should not be longer than the front" was his opinion and not prescriptive._



Topsider said:


> While we're talking preferences, I'd opt for a point or button-down collar rather than a spread. I'm not going to quote anybody to support my point, though. I just think it would look better if the collar points didn't extend so far beyond the edges of the bow.


Well, I was already wearing that shirt with a long tie today; I tied the bow just to given an example. I also prefer the points of the collar to be just outside of the blades, but didn't want to also have to change my shirt. I did rather like the combination of the shirt and ties' colors and patterns, tho'.



Topsider said:


> I also think Flusser's obviously-poorly-tied bow tie looks like an affectation. You know darn well he could do better than that.


Missure Nwaray iss Franch. 'E does not know zees "affec-tation" of wheech you speek.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Gimlet Eye said:


> In "Dressing the Man", Flusser wrote "_Askew enough to reflect its benefactor's handiwork, the bow's formation suggests a man in control of his environment, of his own style_."


I think that nails it, IMHO the bow tie is one of the ultimate forms of personal expression, be it completely askew or perfect an studied. I prefer mine frot and back blades to be even, because it would bother the heck out of me and trigger my OCD every time I look in the mirror lol.



Topsider said:


> While we're talking preferences, I'd opt for a point or button-down collar rather than a spread. I'm not going to quote anybody to support my point, though. I just think it would look better if the collar points didn't extend so far beyond the edges of the bow.


+1, I wear bow ties as a more casual option to long ties, so I wear them pretty much exclusively with OCBDs


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## Gimlet Eye (Aug 5, 2010)

Topsider said:


> The thing that makes the first and fourth look fake more than anything, IMO, is the almost perfectly vertical "knot."


That's not always a reliable giveaway. The knot I tied in the picture has a nearly perfectly vertical knot; that can be accomplished with the right tying technique (and the tie being well-made).



Topsider said:


> In most cases, this is because the bow isn't actually tied...it's fabricated. I suspect the BB bow (the second) is actually pre-tied, not pre-fab.


Well, I snagged the photo from their website, and they claim it's pre-fab.

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/Butt...?dwvar_133I_Color=BLCK&contentpos=1&cgid=0210

Anyway, the only reason I brought pre-ties into it was because I really dislike them and frankly, I think that tying a self-tie in a way that makes them resemble a pre-tie is a poor choice. Not only for the reasons articulated by Mr. Flusser but because bow tie wearers are already viewed as somewhat suspect by those who don't wear them, because they presume that all of them are pre-tied and therefore, the wearer is just slapping on an instant gimmick -- like a dickie or one of those godawful pochette inserts.

I suppose it's like how a woman who has naturally large, well-formed breasts might be irritated by people thinking she's had implants. Having said that, I would hope that she doesn't try to affect _too _much of an askew look, to emphasize their natural asymmetry...


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Gimlet Eye said:


> the only reason I brought pre-ties into it was because I really dislike them


I concur.




> Well, I snagged the photo from their website, and they claim it's pre-fab.



Actually, they say "pre-tied." There's a difference. They both suck, though.



> tying a self-tie in a way that makes them resemble a pre-tie is a poor choice


Personally, I don't think my bows look pre-tied. I don't care whether anyone else does or not. If I cared what other people thought, I wouldn't wear bow ties in the first place.


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## Gimlet Eye (Aug 5, 2010)

Topsider said:


> If I cared what other people thought, I wouldn't wear bow ties in the first place.


Speaking of not caring what other people think: I need a sig. And now I have one.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

Gimlet Eye said:


> Speaking of not caring what other people think: I need a sig. And now I have one.


I knew I liked you.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Topsider said:


> Personally, I don't think my bows look pre-tied. I don't care whether anyone else does or not. If I cared what other people thought, I wouldn't wear bow ties in the first place.


Agreed. It's where I've tried in the past to differentiate between "confidence" and "an utter lack of 'give a d*mn'". It's a subtle line (one made of patch madras), but a line nonetheless.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

SammyH said:


> I personally like diamond point bow ties, which are intrinsically asymmetric and have depth because by their very nature you can see the back wings.


So do I.


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## Ivygrad71 (Mar 22, 2014)

Looks fantastic!


Topsider said:


> So do I.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Ivygrad71 said:


> Looks fantastic!


+1 that looks really great Topsider!


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

@* Gimlet Eye *

Nice shirt, bow tie combination.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Topsider said:


> So do I.


That collar is a standard 3" OCBD right?

I wonder why my points stick out so much further underneath? Yours is a much cleaner look.

I have a few Clifford collars :eek2: - please, don't laugh, lol - and they look about like that^.

I know I'm about to draw the wrath of the Trad Inquisition ("Nobody expects the Trad Inquisition!" Monty Python, lol), but I not only prefer button downs with my bow ties (traddy goodness), but Clifford Collars even more so. The points just peak out (like topsiders up there), and it's a very natty look methinks.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Sammy, I'm willing to bet that his points are definitely longer than on the Clifford. The reason we dislike that collar isn't just because it's fashionably tiny (the collar stand as well as the points), but because there's no roll whatsoever. That's less of an issue if you wear the collar open all the time, but with ties it looks a bit flaccid and uninteresting. Now his collar points may very well be shorter than the Brooks Brothers standard, but there's still a good amount of roll if you look behind his bow.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Jovan said:


> Sammy, I'm willing to bet that his points are definitely longer than on the Clifford. The reason we dislike that collar isn't just because it's fashionably tiny (the collar stand as well as the points), but because there's no roll whatsoever. That's less of an issue if you wear the collar open all the time, but with ties it looks a bit flaccid and uninteresting. Now his collar points may very well be shorter than the Brooks Brothers standard, but there's still a good amount of roll if you look behind his bow.


Thanks Joven, I see what you mean. But why should a roll matter with a bow tie?


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Just as a reference point, my (standard 3") BB OCBD points stick out about an inch under the bow tie.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

SammyH said:


> Thanks Jovan, I see what you mean. But why should a roll matter with a bow tie?


Because it gives your collar more dimension and I assume, like most people here, you wear more than just bow ties. 

BB button-down collar points are actually 3 3/8" long... last I checked. Hopefully they haven't sacrificed more of their heritage in the name of fashion recently.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Jovan said:


> Because it gives your collar more dimension and I assume, like most people here, you wear more than just bow ties.
> 
> BB button-down collar points are actually 3 3/8" long... last I checked. Hopefully they haven't sacrificed more of their heritage in the name of fashion recently.


Yes, you are correct - when perfectly flat and carefully measured, that is the exact length.

And yes, I prefer that collar with long ties - however, I wear them less and less and bow ties now about 80% of the time.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

SammyH said:


> That collar is a standard 3" OCBD right?


It's a Lands' End Hyde Park. I'm not sure of the collar length (it's at the cleaners right now). I think it's a bit shorter than a BB Original Polo Shirt.


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## Roycru (Apr 13, 2011)

Although not all Brooks Brothers button-down collars are the same, here how a Brooks Brothers Brookease button-down shirt that I bought in the year 2000 looks with a bow tie and showing yet another advantage of bow ties, one is less likely to drip any of one's lunch on a bow tie.

Brooks Brothers blazer and shirt, Beau Ties Ltd Of Vermont bow tie, Jim Thompson pocket square, and Tommy Hilfiger cotton sweater vest (which I did drip some of my lunch on, but the cotton sweater vest is machine washable).......


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

haha, yes I agree emphatically that bow ties are a bit more user friendly when it comes to food and other things. Yes, I've noticed that a butterfly bow tie definitely hides more of the collar points. Those are still standard sized points though, right? 3 3/8ths? 

Anyway, you look smashing. I admire your courage - I wouldn't have even tried to eat grown up style and would have donned a bib!


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## Trad-ish (Feb 19, 2011)

Roycru said:


> Although not all Brooks Brothers button-down collars are the same, here how a Brooks Brothers Brookease button-down shirt that I bought in the year 2000 looks with a bow tie and showing yet another advantage of bow ties, one is less likely to drip any of one's lunch on a bow tie.
> 
> Brooks Brothers blazer and shirt, Beau Ties Ltd Of Vermont bow tie, Jim Thompson pocket square, and Tommy Hilfiger cotton sweater vest (which I did drip some of my lunch on, but the cotton sweater vest is machine washable).......


roycru,

You're sitting with a nice meal in front of you and you're wearing a nice outfit. However, your expression looks like someone shot your dog and scattered your garbage. You are happy at some point, aren't you?


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

I HATE it when people smile for photographs. I must be a real grouch, lol


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## Roycru (Apr 13, 2011)

I have always looked like that. A few years ago, I tried to figure out how to smile, just to see if I could do it. I stared at myself in a mirror for about five minutes and tried to smile, but I realized that I have absolutely no idea how to do it. I think that smiling must be a fairly recent thing. There are very few smiling portraits in museums. and very few photographs of people smiling until recently, when girls who were trying to get into show business and slightly suspicious politicians started smiling for the camera.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Roycru said:


> I think that smiling must be a fairly recent thing. There are very few smiling portraits in museums. and very few photographs of people smiling until recently, when girls who were trying to get into show business and slightly suspicious politicians started smiling for the camera.


Dat be true.


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