# orders and societies



## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Religious or philosophical societies or orders, what do you belong to?

SSIM - Societas Sancti Iustini Martyris (Society of Saint Justin, Martyr) - An English Roman Catholic confraternity. 

FCC - Concordia Catholica - A Swedish Roman Catholic society.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

The Phil, TCD. The oldest student society in the world.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> The Phil, TCD. The oldest student society in the world.


Nice! My cousin Liam claimed (when I was often in Dublin, back in the mid-90s) to have been a member, while he was teaching sociology at the American College in Merrion Square. Not sure I believe him to be honest.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

If he went to Trinity then there's a good chance he was..... It's an easy one to sign up to as a Fresher....


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

VictorRomeo said:


> If he went to Trinity then there's a good chance he was..... It's an easy one to sign up to as a Fresher....


No he wasn't there, he was at Liverpool, Salford, and LSE. Although he did teach at Trinity in the 80s.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Philosophical, per se:

Ancient Free and Accepted Masons.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Philosophical, per se:
> 
> Ancient Free and Accepted Masons.


Ah ha, I've often wondered, do both the English & Scottish rites exist in the US? Or do all American lodges follow the same rite? i.e. one or the other.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Ah ha, I've often wondered, do both the English & Scottish rites exist in the US? Or do all American lodges follow the same rite? i.e. one or the other.


It is a bit more complicated than that, but in short, yes, both the York and Scottish rite exist as branches of regular Freemasonry as they do in the UK.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Ancient Free and Accepted Masons. Several lodges.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

I attended a lecture, Wednesay last week, at the Opus Dei Student House in Stockholm, along with other members of Concordia Catholica, it wasvery interesting; and they have a beautiful chapel there too.


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## MikeDT (Aug 22, 2009)

Communist Youth League of China, honourary member. Also used to be in the Scouts.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

That's not religious or philosophical though Mike. Ideological, yes.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

Master Mason, craft lodge (Canadian rite).

Also an 18th degree Scottish rite Mason. 

Tom


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Tom, how does the Canadian differ from the English and Scottish rites?


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

It's interesting. In my town, we've got York Rite and Canadian Rite. They basically are different in ceremony. After craft lodge, you can join a York Lodge or a Scottish Rite Lodge (think of it as Craft Lodge being the introductory levels) and for me, Scottish Rite tells the story as it was left off as a Master Mason.

The story of the Scottish Rite is based around the formation of the temple of Solomon both figuratively and spiritually. York Rite is similar, but the degrees are more based around things I'm not totally familiar with. I don't really know much about York, but someday after I get comfortable with the idea I might join a York Rite lodge. The Knights Templar are a York Rite organization.

There is also the Shriners who wear a fez. As I understand it, most of their work revolves around raising money for causes and is more of a "fun" club. Some local Masons have left the Shrine, because they felt some things they did were questionable and that it was less of a Masonic order and more of a club for raising and spending larger sums of money.

I have a friend in Craft Lodge (Charity #67 A.F. & A.M.) who is Jewish and chose not to go any further than being a Master Mason. He's 91 years old, a Past Master and never wanted to take an oath on the Bible or participate in what is primarily a Christian ritual.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

It's interesting the differences between the Rites. In England for example, any theist can become a Freemason, however in Sweden you have to be a Christian to become a Freemason.

I'm currently investigating the next move in the world of Catholic study and organisations, it's the big one, in other words Opus Dei, but I feel in myself that I'm not fully ready yet, not sure if I ever will be, but my spiritual development carries on.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

In Canada, anybody who believes in some kind of religion can be a member. Even if that's rainbows and puppy dogs, as long as you believe in something, you can participate.

On the altar we put the holy book of whatever religions are present. For example, when my friend Paul (LDS) and my friend Joe (Jew) are there, we put a Torah and a Book of Mormon on the altar in addition to the Holy Bible. 

While you don't need to be a Christian in the traditional sense to be a Scottish rite Mason, it would be awfully confusing if we didn't have an understanding of Christianity. The York Rite degrees, are generally reserved for people who are Christians, or who at least claim an understanding of Christianity and are willing to accept certain principles.

Thomas


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Regarding the shrine, the best way to think about masonry as a whole is as a college fraternity that has been divided up. You've got your craft lodge, which is all of the ceremonial/ritual/deep-meaning stuff, analogous to the initiations and so forth in a greek letter fraternity, and then you've got your shrine which has a very defined philanthropy (shrine hospitals) that it works extremely hard to maintain but at the same time, the shrine is the social side of masonry. Shrines are full of balls and galas and parties. This is the "social" aspect of a college fraternity - you have a philanthropy and you try to raise money for that philanthropy and have a good time along the way.

It's unfortunate some of your friends left the shrine, but my shrine clubhouse has two bars in it and when you go in, you know what it's about. My grandfather and great grandfather were also shriners, it was the same thing when they were in it (and for my great grandfather, that was just about the start of the shrine in the US). It is definitely more of a "boy's club" than a craft lodge, but that's the point... And yes, there is heavy drinking at events, the rituals would be hazing if it were a college fraternity, and so on, but that's part of the fun. It's DEFINITELY not everyone's cup of tea, but nobody just sort of likes the shrine - they LOVE it or they leave it. 

Regarding the hazing comment, they've been sued a couple of times for the Hot Sands ritual. I had a blast, but I can see how it would be offensive and uncomfortable to someone who never experienced being on the high school football team or a college fraternity and so on.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

For a little clarification to those who do not see as we do (and Brother Tilton, I do feel you're doing a disservice by referring to the craft as a college fraternity; that certainly doesn't help the image issues we've had for 185+ years)

The Scottish and York rites are appendant (why doesn't the forum editor recognize that as correctly spelled?) bodies to the craft lodge.

There is no degree 'higher' than that of a third degree Master Mason. All degrees with greater numbers are simply paths of lateral learning. A 32nd degree Mason is not one of a 'higher position' than a 3rd degree Master Mason.

I would propose a better way for a lay person to look at it, as though we're relating to the US higher learning system: The first three degrees of 'craft' freemasonry (Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, Master Mason) could be related to that of a Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctorate degrees. The York and Scottish rites (as well as the Shrine and everything else) are all 'post-doctoral' studies. Once you've received your third degree (doctorate), you're a Doctor just like everyone else, just some folks have continued their education and have more letters to add after their name (or symbols to add to the back of their car). But, everyone is still a doctor and cannot have a higher title in the craft.

Earl: To directly answer you, YES, for the most part, all regular and mutually recognized lodges have the same attainment of the first three degrees of freemasonry, as that is basis for recognition of and with one another. For most lodges worldwide (Sweden being the exception), belief in A (single, one) Supreme Being, and being a male, are the only requirements.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> For a little clarification to those who do not see as we do (and Brother Tilton, I do feel you're doing a disservice by referring to the craft as a college fraternity; that certainly doesn't help the image issues we've had for 185+ years)


Not meaning to insult, but it is an easy analogy to explain the dichotomy of craft lodge and the appendant shrine. Where your regular lodge is more serious, the shrine is not. For example, no booze in the lodge, lots of booze in the temple/clubhouse.

Having just recently been in college and in a fraternity, the analogy is pretty accurate assuming one was in a very masonic-oriented fraternity.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> The Scottish and York rites are appendant (why doesn't the forum editor recognize that as correctly spelled?)


Because machines are idiots. The number of times in a day I have to remove red and green lines when writing advanced English is ridiculous.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Sweden being the exception.


The other oddity with Masonry in Sweden is that there are 10 Degrees.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> Because machines are idiots. The number of times in a day I have to remove red and green lines when writing advanced English is ridiculous.


This cost me 3 minutes of my life to ensure I had that spelled right (and I was fairly certain about it).



Earl of Ormonde said:


> The other oddity with Masonry in Sweden is that there are 10 Degrees.


It is my understanding that the degrees of Freemasonry in Sweden follow those of the rest of the world, but they will confer 4-10 in the craft lodge. I, however, could be wrong.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> It is my understanding that the degrees of Freemasonry in Sweden follow those of the rest of the world, but they will confer 4-10 in the craft lodge. I, however, could be wrong.


No, it's not like that, Swedish Masonry is a mix of many other forms, York, Scottish, French, German. Two of my very closest friends are Tenth Degree Masons.

Under the Grand Lodge and the 3 Provincial Lodges, Swedish Freemasonry is divided into numbered Divisions round the country and each Division follows the same Three Lodge structure, as follows:

S:t Johannesloger: grad I-III (St. John's Craft Degrees)
I Apprentice
II Fellow Craft
III Master Mason

Andreasloger: grad IV/V-VI (St. Andrew's Scottish Degrees)
IV-V Apprentice-Companion of St. Andrew
VI Master of St. Andrew

Kapitelloge: grad VII-X (Chapter Templar Lodges) 
VII Very Illustrious Brother, Knight of the East
VIII Most Illustrious Brother, Knight of the West
IX Enlightened Brothers of St. John's Lodge
X Very Enlightened Brothers of St. Andrew's Lodge

At the very top

Grand Swedish Lodge
XI Most Enlightened Brother, Knight Commander of the Red Cross

Here's a good link, I got from a Freemason friend, to a site in English about Swedish Freemasonry. https://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/swedish_constitution.html


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Going off slightly at a tangent, one thing I've noticed is that those who study theology and delve deeper into their own knowledge and spiritual development can have fantastic dialogue with each other despite belonging to what may be considered as opposing allegiances.


Myself and two very good friends have some fantastic discussions and banter on related subjects.

So when I say, with a glint in my eye, "Just to let you heathen Protestant Masons know, I'm off to such and such a medieval Church at the weekend" 

They respond with "Ah, your Papist duties as a Knight of the Society of St. Justin the Martyr, no doubt! 

:smile:


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> They respond with "Ah, your Papist duties as a Knight of the Society of St. Justin the Martyr, no doubt! :smile:


Not heard of that one. Knights of St. Columba was the big one in NW London.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> Knights of St. Columba was the big one in NW London.


Yes, it covered most of England in fact. My father always said to me I should join but I was never interested.

However, SSIM is purely a spiritual confraternity. It does not do "charitable or good works" like the Masons, K of C, Opus Dei or Rotary.

Also it is a very new society, here is their webpage. The statutes explain what it is all about.
https://justinmartyr.org.uk/justinmartyr/Home.html


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

We went round St Alban's cathedral a year or two ago.

It was before a beer festival in the civic centre. So probably get points taken off for that.


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> It was before a beer festival in the civic centre. So probably get points taken off for that.


  Well, the monks invented beer and liked a tipple, so I think you should get extra points!


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

At the, hopefully minor, risk of incurring the wrath of various members I am compelled to allow that I find this thread faintly disquieting. Sorry chaps. :frown:


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

May I ask why? 

I could understand your unease if I belonged to secret and men only societies conducting secret occult ceremonies behind locked doors.

But I belong to fully open societies open to all men and women, not just Catholics, with the aim of promoting spiritual well being and Catholic values and developing one's own spirituality.

I'd love to hear your take on the subject Shaver.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Earl of Ormonde said:


> May I ask why?
> 
> I could understand your unease if I belonged to secret and men only societies conducting secret occult ceremonies behind locked doors.
> 
> ...


Hello Earl. To obviate doubt: I absolutely do not wish to dispute with you; I always enjoy your threads and posts. And to answer; in my experience of societies (Theosophical Society for one example from a long list) designed to celebrate the values that you cherish - and which I do too - they unfortunately tend to also attract the deluded and manipulative. Groups of well-intentioned and like-minded people tend towards radicalisation. Some of my friends belong to friendly, charitable and welcoming religious groups whose occasional practices I observe to be pretentious or contrived at best but hubristic even blasphemous at worst. 
As to Freemasonry, where to begin? Might I allow this, despite the often rabid reassurances of some members to the contrary, the convoluted values and activities promoted do not sit easily with my worldview, and leave it at that? 
Forgive me if my beliefs are perhaps muddle headed, but they remain firmly held.
Now! It occurs to me that I have said little about clothes recently so I'm away to start a positive thread which hopefully we can all enjoy.


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