# Trad & the cutaway collar



## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

Can one wear a cutaway collar and stay within the bounds of Trad? If so, how?

ASF


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

It all depends.

First of all, never without a tie.

When worn with a tie, the tie knot should be a four-in-hand, not a windsor or half-windsor (this is more personal preference, but it will also differentiate you from all the 30something anglophiles who raid Tyrwhitt and Pink at their semi-annual sales -- no offense to these 30somethings, they're just not trad).

I think that when going beyond the BD collar, one should avoid forward point collars, albeit their 'tradliness' (i.e., places like Press only stock BDs and forward points). I don't think that the forward point looks as good (on anybody) as a more spread collar. I'd also put tab collars and club collars into the Trad ballpark, although the latter is impossible to find and I've only seen tab collars at BB (and I don't even see them at BB that much anymore).

Cutaways are part of being well dressed, IMHO, and Trad should never shy away from being well-dressed. I know many people who are Trad through-and-through who wear cutaway collars with 4IH knots. The key is to know where to wear them (not to the office, but perhaps to the club) and to not let them take the place of the faithful BDs in your wardrobe.

N.B., I'd stay away from 'extreme' cutaways as on the RL Purple Label Keaton shirts. Those look good on one person and one person only: the venerable Charlie Rose (whose wardrobe happens to be provided by Purple Label).

I'm interested to see what others think...


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

I must respectfully disagree, at least in part. I would much rather wear a plain forward point collar (in the old Brookspeak, a "Tennis collar") than a spread collar. I would say that the three basic trad collar styles for dress shirts are the button-down, the plain forward point, and the rounded club or "Golf" collar.

If you like adding shirts with spread collars to the mix, by all means do so. The most important thing is that you feel good about what you wear and that you wear what looks good to you. But you would have your work cut out for you if you wanted to persuade me that spread collars are part of the core trad canon.


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

Qwerty,

You make no mention of the type of jacket or suit to wear. Can a trad pair a cutaway with a sack suit or blazer?


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

If you feel comfortable with the look, go for it. The button down and the point collar are considered tradly, but I wear spreads without giving a thought to what stylistic school it fits in. If we were to put together a list of sartorial giants, quite a few, if not most of them would be memorable for not caring about the rules.


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

ASF said:


> Qwerty,
> 
> You make no mention of the type of jacket or suit to wear. Can a trad pair a cutawy with a sack suit or blazer?


I have paired cutaways with sack blazers, although such is admittedly unorthordox. I wouldn't pair a cutaway with a sack suit, though I would with a darted 2-button suit (again, not trad).

rojo -- I agree with you that a spread/cutaway collar is not part of the classic Trad wardrobe. I also agree with you that the forward point is more trad, along with the club collar (and the tab?). I was simply noting that many people I know who would qualify as Trad DO wear cutaways or spread collars on occasion.

In a similar vein, there are many bankers and lawyers in NYC who wear Alden flat straps or tassels in Color 8 with conservative suits (many sacks) and grosgrain watch bands but who wear Hermes ties and cutaway collars. On the grosgrain watchbands, you'll see high-end Swiss watches, not Timexes. Although neither of these latter three items is classic Trad, it seems that they become so because these men -- arguably the genuine bastion of trad (i.e., people who did go to 'Prep' schools and ivy league colleges and who do not cultivate a look or even have time to look in the mirror too often) -- wear them regularly.

So I put it to the forum: What is the trad verdict on the following items?

-Hermes ties
-Swiss watches (other than Rolex)
-Cutaway collars
-Barbours
-Horsebit loafers (e.g., Gucci)
-French cuffs
-Paul Stuart (the store)


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## jacksprat (Jul 28, 2005)

qwerty said:


> -Hermes ties
> -Swiss watches (other than Rolex)
> -Cutaway collars
> -Barbours
> ...


-Hermes ties - _not trad - neither are Vineyard Vines._
-Swiss watches (other than Rolex) - _yes - trad._
-Cutaway collars - _no way_
-Barbours -_ English trad yes, Amer trad no. But a great jacket._
-Horsebit loafers (e.g., Gucci) - _No way...maybe an Alden Horsebit loafer?_
-French cuffs - _No_
-Paul Stuart (the store) - _What great stuff - So-So trad._


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

jacksprat said:


> -Hermes ties - _not trad - neither are Vineyard Vines._
> -Swiss watches (other than Rolex) - _yes - trad._
> -Cutaway collars - _no way_
> -Barbours -_ English trad yes, Amer trad no. But a great jacket._
> ...


I supppose it all depends on how narrowly you want to define trad, and what you mean by a cutaway collar. I agree with rojo that extreme cutaways are not in the core of trad. However, I have an old brooks "tennis collar" shirt, and it reminds me more of a spread collar from an english shirtmaker than the point collars that brooks and press sell (which I personally don't like). As far as the rest of the list goes, I believe the tradlyness is all in how its all how its done. Playing for the Detriot Lions, acting in b-westerns and starting a reasonably avant garde literary magazine are generally v. untrad, but George Plimpton seemed to carry it off.

Hermes ties- not trad, but could possibly be uc, if its a gift from one of your BCBG friends and you have to wear it when they come to the states and visit

Swiss watches- if Harris likes them, they must be

Cutaway Collars- no, but, if you buy some from T&A when while walking home after a few too many drinks at whites Whites, I think that's a respectable reason to have them in your closet

Barbours- Yes, albeit a bit trendy (at least in PA, Bucks & Montgomery counties), to counter this, yours had better be very beat up and have the old tartan lining. Now that the Bean field coat has gone to hell what else can you wear?

Horsebit loafers- of course, but they had better be old. wear them with grey flannels, a white pinpoint and pink sweater, and jack's your uncle, the whole world will wonder how your grandfather made his money. See what lang phelps has to say on the subject :

French Cuffs- not trad, but some occasions, such as formal morning wedings, require them, and what is more trad than a formal morning wedding?

Paul Stuart- jacksprat gets it right


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

septa said:


> Barbours...Now that the Bean field coat has gone to hell what else can you wear?


So, it's not just me, then...thank God.


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## septa (Mar 4, 2006)

jacksprat said:


> -Hermes ties - _not trad - neither are Vineyard Vines._
> -Swiss watches (other than Rolex) - _yes - trad._
> -Cutaway collars - _no way_
> -Barbours -_ English trad yes, Amer trad no. But a great jacket._
> ...


I supppose it all depends on how narrowly you want to define trad, and what you mean by a cutaway collar. I agree with rojo that extreme cutaways are not in the core of trad. However, I have an old brooks "tennis collar" shirt, and it reminds me more of a spread collar from an english shirtmaker than the point collars that brooks and press sell (which I personally don't like). As far as the rest of the list goes, I believe the tradlyness is all in how its all how its done. Playing for the Detriot Lions, acting in b-westerns and starting a reasonably avant garde literary magazine are generally v. untrad, but George Plimpton seemed to carry it off.

Hermes ties- not trad, but could possibly be uc, if its a gift from one of your BCBG friends and you have to wear it when they come to the states and visit

Swiss watches- if Harris likes them, they must be

Cutaway Collars- no, but, if you buy some from T&A when while walking home after a few too many drinks at whites Whites, I think that's a respectable reason to have them in your closet

Barbours- Yes, albeit a bit trendy (at least in PA, Bucks & Montgomery counties), to counter this, yours had better be very beat up and have the old tartan lining. Now that the Bean field coat has gone to hell what else can you wear?

Horsebit loafers- of course, but they had better be old. wear them with grey flannels, a white pinpoint and pink sweater, and jack's your uncle, the whole world will wonder how your grandfather made his money. See what lang phelps has to say on the subject :

French Cuffs- not trad, but some occasions, such as formal morning wedings, require them, and what is more trad than a formal morning wedding?

Paul Stuart- jacksprat gets it right


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

jacksprat said:


> -Hermes ties - _not trad - neither are Vineyard Vines._
> -Swiss watches (other than Rolex) - _yes - trad._
> -Cutaway collars - _no way_
> -Barbours -_ English trad yes, Amer trad no. But a great jacket._
> ...


Vineyard Vines is a big scam -- very poorly made stuff (their ties are okay on quality) and while it was 'cool' about 4 years ago, it's now just too ubiquitous. It was also never trad. By contrast, Hermes is not like this. Hermes is a classic and, although the salesmen at Press don't wear Hermes ties, MANY of Press's customers do. No one has addressed this yet.

As to the Horsebits, I don't like them personally. However, I think that one should get Gucci if one wears them at all. Alden, AE, and Cole-Haan make nearly-identical copies, but I'm always in favor of getting the original of something if one is to get it at all.

Paul Stuart -- admittedly a bit too fashion forward recently, but if you had to pick three places that NYC trads shop, the list would be Press, BB, and Paul Stuart. I don't think you can deny this.

So I suppose my point is that MANY men who would qualify as Trad in the most serious way -- i.e., through backgrounds, acquaintances, educations, etc. wear these items which we all might deem 'non-trad'. But maybe trad is a living style much like liberals consider the Constitution to be a 'living document'.


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## ASF (Mar 6, 2006)

Thanks Querty.

I have two Thomas Pink cutaways ( Pink gingham and blue candy stripe) and one Ben Silver cutaway (Blue tattersall). I shall wear them with confidence with my summer blue blazer.

As far as jacksprat is concerned:
Hermes ties - some of their tie are fantastic
-Swiss watches (other than Rolex) my 1948 Heuer (No Tag Thank-you) Chrono given to my Dad on his 21st in 1948 and given to me on my 21st in 1985-very Trad.
-Barbours - can pass especially when shooting birds
-Horsebit loafers (e.g., Gucci) - No way, but I still love them. Mine have the swatch of Red and blue ribbon/surcingle under the bit
-Paul Stuart (the store) - In general,I don't consider PS trad. However, some items are quite Trad

ASF


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

ASF said:


> Thanks Querty.
> 
> I have two Thomas Pink cutaways ( Pink gingham and blue candy stripe) and one Ben Silver cutaway (Blue tattersall). I shall wear them with confidence with my summer blue blazer.
> 
> ASF


Cut-a way tattersall? Yes indeed!

Allen


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

qwerty said:


> It all depends.
> 
> First of all, never without a tie.
> 
> When worn with a tie, the tie knot should be a four-in-hand, not a windsor or half-windsor (this is more personal preference, but it will also differentiate you from all the 30something anglophiles who raid Tyrwhitt and Pink at their semi-annual sales -- no offense to these 30somethings, they're just not trad).


Not familiar with Pink's stuff, but interested to hear why those who raid Tyrwhitt would be excluded from trad?

Not meant in an argumentative way,

Allen


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

Allen said:


> Not familiar with Pink's stuff, but interested to hear why those who raid Tyrwhitt would be excluded from trad?
> 
> Not meant in an argumentative way,
> 
> Allen


I find that Tyrwhitt and Pink cutaway shirts are often quite loud. Men in their 30s in both the US and UK pair these heavily patterned shirts with simple, solid thick woven ties with windsor knots. The windsor knots are especially prominent in the UK. So it's not that there's anything wrong with this look. It's just that this look is not trad. It belongs to the anglophilia school, and probably to a 'young and hip' anglophilia school at that.

But I see simple (and/or solid) cutaway or spread collar shirts on 'Trad' men regularly.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

qwerty said:


> I find that Tyrwhitt and Pink cutaway shirts are often quite loud. Men in their 30s in both the US and UK pair these heavily patterned shirts with simple, solid thick woven ties with windsor knots. The windsor knots are especially prominent in the UK. So it's not that there's anything wrong with this look. It's just that this look is not trad. It belongs to the anglophilia school, and probably to a 'young and hip' anglophilia school at that.
> 
> But I see simple (and/or solid) cutaway or spread collar shirts on 'Trad' men regularly.


Just visited the CT site, see what you mean by loud.

I love watching the Midsummer Murders on the Bio channel, and must say that I do like that Anglo look, especially the fall and winter stuff.

While I'm not a fan of stripes, I must say I did find several of the checks, large and small, to my liking. I'd probably knot up one of those big Windsors if I thought I could remember how to do it, right now I'm having a hard enough time remembering my AA password.

Proud to be an American,

Allen


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

If all it takes to qualify as trad "in the most serious way" are some trad acquaintances, and if we must allow that anything worn by a person who has such acquaintances is therefore trad, we arrive at a definition that can be stretched to fit anything. 

It therefore describes nothing.


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Over my dead body*

Let me simply, and emphatically state for the record that you can all have my french cuffs when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers. Under no circumstances will I even entertain the notion that french cuffs are un-trad. If you want my membership card back, then so be it. It's your loss, not mine.

This business about the spread collar being somehow untrad is laughable. Are there shirts being made on Jermyn Street that don't fit the Trad mold? Of course! But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Once again, let me refer you to the OPH. Molloy, Karpinsky, Boyer, Flusser, Keers, and others are all in agreement on this point. But the OPH seems to be the closest thing to a Trad Bible, so here goes. . .

"In warm weather, shirts of blue cotton madras with white collars are in order.
The adult businessman often moves beyond the button down to a plain collar, with moderately short or rounded points. These shirts may be worn with a collar pin-- the kind that looks like a safety pin but actually clips on so as not to harm the shirt. Business shirts (and shirts for relatively formal occasions) may be in a silky, light broadcloth of Pima cotton. A few delicate tattersall designs also belong in the shirt drawer.
Reguardless of what the signs in the stores say, there is no such thing as a short-sleeved dress shirt. For jacketless sportswear, it is far more desirable to roll up long sleeves."

Also on the subject of cuff links, the experts are _*all*_ in agreement.

"The wafer thin, two-buoon kind, never the swivel-backed version. Your initials go on them, or yours on one and your wife's or girlfriend's on the other. Simple, flat gold or silver designs."

Unique to the OPH is the mention of silk knot cuff links.
"The inexpensive alternative. Knotted silk cord, available in numerous color combinations".

How does one integrate point or semi-spread collars into the business and semi-formal wardrobe? Simple! Solid coloured end-on-end weaves with a white collar and white french cuffs are a no-brainer. I've often assumed that this is what OPH meant by Madras body, as I've never seen a solid colored madras shirt anywhere with a contrast collar. Such as shirt with a club collar has been something of an obsession of mine, and I'll sew it myself if I have to. I've owned a dozen variations on this, but never with a club collar, and always with a subtle stripe in the body, or with button cuffs, or with a contrast collar and "self-fabric" cuffs. The spread of the collar need not go to extremes, just as the stripes ought not be too loud or flashy. But ignore the finest dress shirts in favor of wearing OCBDs to semi-formal affairs? *Major* fashion _faux pas_! OCBDs will forever be too casual for some occasions, and wearing them is simply rude to your hosts, just like wearing a belt with a tuxeedo.


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## GreyFlannelMan (Jun 16, 2004)

I love the cutaway collar, but it is by no means Trad. Let's not make a mistake and assume that because something is English in origin that it is Trad. I don't think spread collars are Trad either. But I wear them as wel.. Indeed, these days, BD collars are nowhere to be found in my dress shirt collection (I do wear them causally).

Paul Stuart is an interesting situation: it has some Trad pieces, but overall would not be a Trad establishment. I'd say it's more for the dandy.

dpihl: the sentence you quote from the OPH about collars does not make reference to spread or cutaways, just "plain." To me, this would be a forward point or tennis collar as offered by BB. Does Press offer any sort of spread collar? Not that I've ever noticed.


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## sweetbooness2 (May 25, 2006)

I have always loved the Paul Stuart website and catalog, but have never visited the store. I agree that its style is not Eljo's or J. Press trad, but the use of color, etc. is more often than not, on the money in my book. In fact, I call it trandy. A trandy would be a subspecies of trad who has a few drops of the dandy in his blood.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

sweetbooness2 said:
 

> I have always loved the Paul Stuart website and catalog, but have never visited the store. I agree that its style is not Eljo's or J. Press tad, but the use of color, etc. is more often than not, on the money in my book. In fact, I call it trandy. A trandy would be a subspecies of trad who has a few drops of the dandy in his blood.


Trandy? I like it.

Allen


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

Allen said:


> Trandy? I like it.
> 
> Allen


Allen - Trandy - that would be you, either that or the Trendy Preppy - LOL
Cheers


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

GreyFlannelMan said:


> I love the cutaway collar, but it is by no means Trad. Let's not make a mistake and assume that because something is English in origin that it is Trad. I don't think spread collars are Trad either. But I wear them as well... dpihl: the sentence you quote from the OPH about collars does not make reference to spread or cutaways, just "plain." To me, this would be a forward point or tennis collar as offered by BB. Does Press offer any sort of spread collar? Not that I've ever noticed.


I will gladly stipulate that French Cuffs are a hallmark of the Trandy, as are silk knotted cufflinks that are colour co-ordinated with grossgrain watchband, Braces/D-ring belt, tie, etc.

The forward point tennis collar is a great starting place, and probably the only option for a collar pin. Most club collars require the other kind of collar pin (and eyelets in the collar iteself). The fake collar pin won't stay put with many club collars, and I have to admit to disliking the look of a pinned club collar anyway.

However, I can't agree that spread collars are categorically un-Trad. The term "spread collar" covers too broad a spectrum for such a sweeping statement. I've seen a lot of semi-spreads that are absolutely gorgeous with bow ties.

It seems to me that there are few hard and fast rules here. The shape of your face ought to dictate the spread of your collar, just as it dictates which shape of bow tie looks best on you. I do agree, however, that the full Duke of Windsor cutaway collar is too extreme (as are many spread collars) for the Trad purist.


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Please, tell me where I am wrong here.*

Here are a few examples of un-Trad collars, at least from the American perspective. I will readily stipulate that the British Tradsters will have plenty to complain about here.

S3 is pushing the envelope a little bit, S4 and S5 simply don't make the cut as far as I'm concerned. They may look really good on some men if the fabric is just right, but they're probably not what one would consider Trad.

This shirt, for me is absolutely perfect in every way. Just thought you should see a good example before I overwhelm you with negativity.

Um, wow.

I am unwilling to categorically rule out spread collars. But collars with this kind of curvature are absolutely verbotten in my book. I hate 'em.

Way too wide a spread for my tastes, especially with that tie! The collar is positively dwarfed by the tie knot, which I think we can all agree looks silly.

This, for me, is the perfect spread for many bow ties. However, the shirt is too dark to be considered Trad. And the top stitching ruins an otherwise good look IMHO. If this shirt had contrasting collar and cuffs, I might be able to overlook the dark indigo fabric.

MODENA does this all the time. They make a perfectly Tradly shirt, and then ruin it with these goofy little accents on the collar and cuffs. One of the reasons I love french cuffs, is that you can spot an imposter from a mile away. Cheap or poor quality shirts with French cuffs always give themselves away like this. Like a clip-on bow tie, you don't have to try very hard to tell this shirt is a fake.









I love the fabric Paul Stuart chose here. And for a spread collar, at least the width of the collar is correct. It's just a wee bit too wide of a spread. Otherwise, this shirt would be plenty Trad. If not Trad in the purest sense, at least it would be Trandy.

White on white patterns are also often a dead giveaway that this is a cheap/ poor quality shirt. This is the least offensive of the "swiss" designs I've seen, but it was the only one I could find in a hurry. The problem with swiss cottons, is that all-too-often they are not cotton. Even if they are all -cotton (a rarity nowadays), they will always look like those synthetic monstrosities that department stores carried back in the 1970's.

Another example of too wide a spread for such a narrow collar. Also, there is friction between the rounded cuff and the pointy collar. The fabric is too casual for this kind of a dress shirt, and unlike the Paul Stuart, it is not brightly colored and playful. And what's with the tie anyway???

If ever there were a fabric (besides oxford cloth) that needed a button-down collar, it would be seersucker. I'm not even sure that a contrasting tennis collar with a pin would work with this fabric. It simply _has_ to be a button-down collar.


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

One other quick comment about the shirt examples, if I may.

Two of the shirts are plaid, and hence have both horizontal and vertical stripes running through them. By plaid, I mean the American use of the term, not the scottish. I try to use British spellings whenver I can (this _is_ an international forum), but I don't even know what folks in the UK call non-tartan patterns like this. Checked???

Anyway, notice how the cut of the collars fight with the lines in the fabric. If there was a natural spread for the fabric, it would be paralell to the lines in the plaid itself. Both Ravis and Paul Stuart seem to have made the same mistake here. It simply doesn't look right. That's my opinion anyway.

BTW. I assume you Brits and Kiwis know that by "French Cuffs" I mean "Double Cuffs". Right? Unlike the suspenders vs. braces controversy, there is no fear that through use of the phrase "French Cuffs" somebody will think you mean something embarrassing. Hardly anybody in America ever hears or uses the expression "double cuffs".

Here are a few more examples I found just now.

Don't you just _hate_ the accents on the cuffs and collar???

This collar does the same thing I was talking about, only this time it overshoots the diagonal lines in the fabric of the collar. IMHO this fabric is way too casual for a tab collar. Add contrasting collar and french cuffs, and then maybe we can talk about it. I am generally of the opinion that a pinned collar is more trad than a tab collar, but that argument is not a hill I'm willing to die on.

This shirt seems perfectly at home in my wardrobe, admittedly more natty/ dandyish than some would make allowances for.

Club Collar lovers rejoice! offers the elusive collar under the wrong name. Eton collar? No. This is not an Eton collar. That word is supposed to describe the collar that Eton's underclassmen wore over one hundred years ago, which they have subsequently abandoned in favor of New and Lingwood's Arundel model.

Anyway, I don't like the coloured neckband, but who cares? Your tie will cover that up anyway. And I am not a fan of these barrel cuffs with the double buttons, even if they _are_ mainstream on Jermyn Street in London.
But this company seems to offer MTM shirts, and oxford cloth to boot. Any of you who wanted to place a bulk order elsewhere might want to look into a local shop that sells Gambert. It might be cost effective, I don't know.

BTW: The big names on Jermyn Street (Pink, etc.) are a great place to find those colorful little knot cuff links. They used to be easier to find over here, and even easy to find in two-tone variations (pink and green, burgundy and navy, yellow gold and navy, etc.)

Anyway, I'll shut up now. Sorry for hogging so much bandwidth this morning.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

dpihl: I think you are right about the OPH reference to "shirts of blue cotton madras with white collars" meaning an end-on-end weave. Such a shirt is illustrated in a Brooks Brothers catalogue of the period (Spring 1982, p. 14): "Our long sleeve shirt of light blue end-on-end cotton Madras features plain point collar and cuffs of white cotton broadcloth. C295, $30."

I do not believe that the OPH includes semi-spread collars. The line drawings of the three shirt collars on p. 140 all have a label at the back of the neck consisting of a box with an oval inside -- clearly a nod to the Brooks shirt labels. I submit that what the OPH is attempting to illustrate with its line drawings of the "Plain point collar," the "Rounded collar," and the "button-down collar" are the three standard Brooks Brothers shirt collars: Tennis collar, Golf collar, and Polo collar. The words "plain point" appear repeatedly in the Brooks catalogues of the time in reference to the Tennis collar. Spring 1982, p. 15: "Our hairline stripe shirt of cotton broadcloth with plain point Tennis collar," "Our solid color short sleeve shirt of cotton broadcloth has plain point Tennis collar."


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Pipe Dreams*

Rojo, your analysis is spot on. I agree with everything in your post. I do not maintain that spread collars are reccomended, prescribed, or endorsed in any way by the authors of the OPH. Rather, my "point" was that it's foolish to categorically rule out nice shirts with collar spreads of more than three quarters of an inch at the widest point. Furthermore, I do not believe that the OPH, or any other fashion bible says _not_ to wear semi-spread collars. It is purely a matter of taste, and is a decision left to the individual.

You can wear exclusively BB or Polo or J Press or Ben Silver your whole life if you choose to do so. Chances are you'll look better than most. But when I read catalogs from Paul Frederick, Thomas Pink, Charles Tyrwhitt, and others; I can't help wishing I could afford to buy more shirts.

If only I had a desk job where ties were part of the dress code... :crazy:


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Good enough, dpihl. I agree with you that there are many trad shirt options beyond the Oxford cloth button-down, including broadcloth shirts with plain point collars and French cuffs.


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

I know more than a few private school reared guys in NY who have long worn a uniform of BB or Winston suits, Gucci loafers, with Harvey & Hudson or Turnbull shirts.

Maybe it a NY thing...


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

Here's a club collar with too wide a spread. :crazy: Who knew?​







​


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## jml90 (Dec 7, 2005)

dpihl said:


> Here's a club collar with too wide a spread. :crazy: Who knew?​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why the seance?


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

jml90 said:


> Why the seance?



Bring out your dead!
[clang]
Bring out your dead!

Bring out your dead threads!

Sorry, just went out in search of old threads about club collars, since I'm thinking about getting a shirt collar replaced.

Found two really odd sites in the process of looking.

(think I'd like it better if it were the AAAC instead of poseur central)

https://blog.fropper.com/times/2006/05/collar_job_priy.html
dig those funky illustrations man! They don't even correlate to the descriptions.


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## paper clip (May 15, 2006)

rojo said:


> I must respectfully disagree, at least in part. I would much rather wear a plain forward point collar (in the old Brookspeak, a "Tennis collar") than a spread collar.....


I agree with Rojo, here.

Sorry - just realized that this is an old thread. My opinion remains the same, though.


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## jml90 (Dec 7, 2005)

dpihl said:


> Bring out your dead!
> [clang]
> Bring out your dead!
> 
> ...


"I feel. I feel happy!"


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Though I no longer own any cutaway-collard shirts (spread, yes), I always liked them. As an earlier poster said, always wear it with a tie.

My two cents....

I think it depends on the shape of your face. Men with really round faces look a bit silly with extremely spread collars. It emphasizes the "roundless." Also, and I know this is Trad sacrilege, but a four-in-hand knot does not belong on a cutaway collar. It's too small and does not fill up the space between the collar points sufficiently. A half-Windsor is a far better option. Full-Windsors, unless you actually _are_ a Windsor, should never be worn...you'll look like an anglo-wannabe.


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## Topsider (Jul 9, 2005)

I'm reviving the French cuff thread because my wife recently bought me a PRL blue-and-white striped broadcloth shirt with a spread collar and French cuffs (on sale, natch). Now, I haven't worn French cuffs in a long time (except with black tie), as I usually don't wear suits to work (dress pants and a shirt/tie with a white lab coat over everything is the norm). However, I wore it today with a pair of silk knot cuff links, and y'know...it's not so bad. Definitely a more formal look than an OCBD, but I could get used to it. I think the key to not overdoing it is staying away from the gaudier cuff links.

So, what do y'all think? Anyone else wear French cuffs?


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

jml90 said:


> "I feel. I feel happy!"


You're not foolin' anyone old man! This thread will be stone dead in a few minutes. C'mon, do us a favor...


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## Literide (Nov 11, 2004)

qwerty said:


> I have paired cutaways with sack blazers, although such is admittedly unorthordox. I wouldn't pair a cutaway with a sack suit, though I would with a darted 2-button suit (again, not trad).
> 
> rojo -- I agree with you that a spread/cutaway collar is not part of the classic Trad wardrobe. I also agree with you that the forward point is more trad, along with the club collar (and the tab?). I was simply noting that many people I know who would qualify as Trad DO wear cutaways or spread collars on occasion.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Trad and trads can evolve. This isnt 1960 afterall. I knoe prep/Ivy educated New Yorkers who wear nothing but BB suits and Aldens with Harvey & Hudson shirts. They might also throw a Barbour over it.

Myself, I venture further off the res with my suits and shoes. And surely dont claim any trad purity.


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## Philip12 (Aug 24, 2005)

I realise this is all about American trad, but let me tell you this from a European perspective. Widespread collars with double cuffs are considered traditional and elegant for business wear. OCBDs are also popular, but for casual wear. Somehow a business suit with an OCBD doesn't feel right, although you actually see quite a few people dressed like that here. An OCBD with a blue blazer would be okay.


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## miamimike (Oct 18, 2007)

I like the look of the spread colars but I have a somewhat round face and dont think they would look that great on me hense round face stay with closer together colars. If you use a full windsor knot with a spread colar I agree it can look out of proportion and same goes for a knot that is too small for the colar can look horrible. 

I mostly use half windsors which fill out just enough of my colar gap to look good without looking like a clown. Most of my shirts are trad straight.

Does anyone else believe or follow the rule with the round face = closer colars, skinny face = spread colars?


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

miamimike said:


> Does anyone else believe or follow the rule with the round face = closer colars, skinny face = spread colars?


I believe in the rule of my face = buttondown collar.


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