# those "tolerant" muslims are at it again...



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

I've been following this for the past day or so...just wondering what the fora thinks about this latest display...


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## rkipperman (Mar 19, 2006)

Nothing surprises me about the religion of peace.


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## samblau (Apr 2, 2005)

Once again the extremists take the day. What strikes me as odd is that my friends from outside the US, many of whom are Muslim/Arab, and I often times engage in friendly religious/societal discussions and do so without fear of showcasing our lack of knowledge about another religion. They are not really debates but rather exchanges of ideas. If one were to ask what the significance of the Cross of the Star of David was in the US most Americans would be willing and able to provide some information. If I asked a Muslim in America to explain the significane of the Prophet Muhammad I would expect that they could provide an explanation in lay terms and more than likely be happy to satisy my interests. If I were traveling in an Arab country and asked such a question would my ignorance have me imprisoned or worse? Are people not given the name Muhammad and if so why can't children bestow a name of honor upon something they hold out to be important, silly as it may be in an adults eyes. I am obviously biased toward the more liberal US point of view however I think that there is a lot to be said for the fact that people of all walks of life live and work freely in the United States in the wake of a massive atack on our own soil and are afforded a high degree of protection and those of us who show dislike or distrust of these people are rightfully considered to backwards in their thinking. On the other hand foreigners in these countries travel in armed convoys and are attacked on a nearly daily basis. Yes, the US supports Israel and things have never been great between the Judeo-Christian and the Muslim worlds but I cannot imagine even the most devout Orthodox Jew or Christian publicly advocating for a foreign teachers death regardless of how much they were insulted.


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

samblau said:


> Once again the extremists take the day. What strikes me as odd is the fact that i have many friends from outside the US which is very common in NY. Many are from that part of the world and we often times engage in friendly religious/societal discussions. They are not really debates but rather exchanges of ideas. If one were to ask what the significance of the Cross of the Star of David was in the US most Americans would be willing and able to provide some information. If I asked a Muslim in America to explain the significane of the Prophet Muhammad I would expect that they could provide an explanation in lay terms and more than likely be happy to satisy my interests. If I were traveling in an Arab country and asked such a question would my ignorance have me imprisoned or worse? Are people not given the name Muhammad and if so why can't children bestow a name of honor upon something they hold out to be important, silly as it may be in an adults eyes. I am obviously biased toward the more liberal US point of view however I think that there is a lot to be said for the fact that people of all walks of life live and work freely in the United States in the wake of a massive atack on our own soil and are afforded a high degree of protection and those of us who show dislike or distrust of these people are rightfully considered to backwards in their thinking. On the other hand foreigners in these countries travel in armed convoys and are attacked on a nearly daily basis. Yes, the US supports Israel and things have never been great between the Judeo-Christian and the Muslim worlds but I cannot imagine even the most devout Orthodox Jew or Christian publicly advocating for a foreign teachers death regardless of how much they were insulted.


I think part of it is simply the nature of some interpretations of the religion, but in many of these cases today it's exacerbated greatly by radicals "using" an event to stoke the fire, as they know it will build unity among the masses who often don't have things all that great.

Put this event in context of the horror that is the Sudan today and it doesn't seem all that odd to me at all. It's about the government behaving a certain way to influence and preserve power.

-spence


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I was pleasantly surprised to see a number of Islamic leaders and organizations calling on the Sudanese government to dismiss the charges and release her.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

The Sudan is their country. Visitors enter at their own risk. Who are we to say this execution is not right and proper? It is their society and they should be allowed to behead those people they feel deserve beheading. After all, it makes for good youtube. 

Or is youtube part of the Great Satan? So hard to keep track.

Cheers and jihad to you all.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Wayfarer, how were you able to buy futures on replacement blades for beheading axes????


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Wayfarer, how were you able to buy futures on replacement blades for beheading axes????


:aportnoy:


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

"This government wants Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead." 

Raytheon should be getting a big order from the Royal Navy if this poor woman isn't comfortably seated in a BA 777 First Class seat, sipping champagne enroute to Heathrow in the next week.

Perhaps Rome will take offense at Jesus being used as a name. In that case there are alot of Dominican shortstops in big trouble.

Karl


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## obiwan (Feb 2, 2007)

https://shop.muhammadteddybear.com/


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

*A Muslim's Reaction*

I've read this story as it's been reported a few times, and I see absolutely no justification for the uproar from Sudan, from the ridiculous prison sentence, to the deportation order, to the blood-thirsty mobs calling for her execution. What's happening in Sudan defies all logic and is an abomination to justice. That said, many Muslim Umbrella groups around the world have been very quick to condemn this and call for her unconditional release, so it should not be misconstrued that all muslims feel this way. Quite the opposite, every muslim I've talked to about this is bewildered by the massively disproportionate reaction to this trivial, non-offensive event. The actions of this mob and the government in Sudan are inexcusable and an embarassment and outrage to civilized Muslims and indeed civilized people everywhere.

Mohammed is a very common name, and ascribing it to a child's valued teddy bear is not an offensive action. The Muslim Public Affair's Council of Britain described it as "at worst, a cultural faux pas." To be honest, as a Muslim, I didn't even know it was that, so I hardly think a non-muslim foreigner could be expected to know it. If I had to explain to a non-muslim how offensive this is (or isn't) I'd say it's somewhat LESS offensive than if a muslim teacher were to name a teddy-bear Jesus. The authorities should have never gotten involved, she should have never been put on trial, she shouldn't be in jail, and she shouldn't be deported.

I've tried to make heads or tails of the underlying cause of this ridiculous reaction from the Sudanese government and mob over the last few days, and I've concluded that there's something we're not being told. Most likely, someone in Sudan is purposely starting a frenzy over this trivial matter for some sort of personal or political gain. It's not unheard of in any part of the world for politicians to make a mountain out of a molehill to get some attention and rally support behind them in a show of force.

*Press Release: Protest outside Sudanese Embassy: Free Gillian Gibbons NOW!!!*
https://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/4211/
_*-Muslim Public Affair Council of Britain

* P.S. Wayfarer - It may be their country, but they are doing this supposedly in the name of Islam, not Sudan. When they do that, every muslim has a stake in it, whether or not they're Sudanese.

P.S.S. rkipperman - Don't conflate the actions of a minority with the beliefs of the majority._


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

+1

-spence


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Well, I'm glad at least some Muslim groups are speaking out about this.

Brian


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> P.S. Wayfarer - It may be their country, but they are doing this supposedly in the name of Islam, not Sudan. When they do that, every muslim has a stake in it, whether or not they're Sudanese.


omairp, I'm just mouthing the usual liberal cultural relativism pap. The usual, "Who are we to judge," which flies in the face of everything I believe. Surely you did not think I was serious?


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> omairp, I'm just mouthing the usual liberal cultural relativism pap. The usual, "Who are we to judge," which flies in the face of everything I believe. Surely you did not think I was serious?


Given that deferral to state authority is a principle tenant of conservativism, you as a known conservative, might indeed, have been serious.

As an atheist and anarchist, I find it ironic that Islam has been a vehicle for resistance to capitalism/colonialism for the last 300+ years. (Nikki R. Keddie, "The Revolt of Islam, 1700 to 1993: Comparative Considerations and Relations to imperialism," in the July 1994 issue of Comparative Studies in Society and History.)

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Maybe we can send Cassius Clay to negotiate her release.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Wayfarer, how were you able to buy futures on replacement blades for beheading axes????


And on what exchange might these be sold?

Now ... there was one story about the bear being named for a boy in her classroom ... and not the prophet ... or is that Prophet.

EDIT: Does confusion about uppercase or lowercase letters mean I cannot visit the Sudan?


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

But a more important question ... Gabba, where did you get that quote? I just don't get the Louis XIV connection ... and yes I do understand the basking comment. And don't you live in the burbs of Contra Costa County ... or am I completely mistaken? 

Also ... I see we have a new picture. Will the real Gabba please stand up?


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Surely you did not think I was serious?


I must confess, for a second I thought you were. 

(I actually have read similar comments in recent days.)


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

RSS said:


> But a more important question ... Gabba, where did you get that quote? I just don't get the Louis XIV connection ... and yes I do understand the basking comment. And don't you live in the burbs of Contra Costa County ... or am I completely mistaken?
> 
> Also ... I see we have a new picture. Will the real Gabba please stand up?


LoL...isn't it great???

somebody brought it to my attention that those classy carachters over on FNB's site were talking about me...when I read that quote I must say that I thought it was too good not to use...I don't really get the Louis XIV comment either...the only thing that I can think is that whoever wrote that meant Louis XVI...

I was actually born in CoCo County, spent a good chunk of my youth there (aswell as JamRock, Costa Rica, MIA, and Philly), but I live in the burbs of Solano county now...but I do still spend a lot of time in CoCo (I have family in Concord and Clayton, I work in and have a lady friend in Walnut Creek, and my best friend lives in Alamo)...

...and the picture...well...I needed a picture that would compliment the quote, so why not a pic of me noshing (gnoshing?) on a Mickey Mouse ice cream _sangwich_ :icon_smile_big:...


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Gurdon said:


> Given that deferral to state authority is a principle tenant of conservativism, you as a known conservative, might indeed, have been serious.


I'm a "known conservative"? Well you can safely carry on your day knowing that you could not possibly be more incorrect again today if you tried.

Warmest regards


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I'm a "known conservative"? Well you can safely carry on your day knowing that you could not possibly be more incorrect again today if you tried.
> 
> Warmest regards


My apologies. I should have written something to the effect that I inferred from reading your posts that you hold some, if not many, politically conservative views. I certainly did not intend any offense. (I wouldn't refer to someone as a conservative if I thought they might be offended by the attribution. I might, however, call someone a liberal as a mild insult.)

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Gurdon said:


> My apologies. I should have written something to the effect that I inferred from reading your posts that you hold some, if not many, politically conservative views. I certainly did not intend any offense. (I wouldn't refer to someone as a conservative if I thought they might be offended by the attribution. I might, however, call someone a liberal as a mild insult.)
> 
> Regards,
> Gurdon


No offense taken. I understand that in these days anyone placing faith in free markets and attempting to keep the government as least intrusive as possible, within the confines of an advanced society, is often pigeon-holed as "conservative". No, am a godless agnostic that is rather progressive on the social front. I just desire to keep as much of my earnings and free choice as possible!


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*cultural relativism*



Wayfarer said:


> ...usual liberal cultural relativism pap. The usual, "Who are we to judge," which flies in the face of everything I believe. ...


Cultural relativism is the boogyman of Bloom and other conservatives. So I might be excused for my inference that you were a conservative. I am trying to figure out how being socially progressive squares with being upset with the concept I found useful when I encountered it in Mr. Berriman's Anthro 2A class 44 years ago.

Just to be clear what I am talking about, I understand cultural relativism to mean that phenomena, such as religion, occur pretty much universally and that while content varies from one culture to the next, the functions of the phenomena are fairly consistent. The popularization of the concept led to some regrettable oversimplifications, some due to dullness, others, such as Bloom's distortions, in support of reactionary argumentation. (For the record, I did read Dimming of the American Mind, I think that's the title, albeit without enthusiasm.) The distortions of Darwin's ideas come to mind as analogous and apposite.

Regards,
Gurdon


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Gurdon said:


> Cultural relativism is the boogyman of Bloom and other conservatives. So I might be excused for my inference that you were a conservative. I am trying to figure out how being socially progressive squares with being upset with the concept I found useful when I encountered it in Mr. Berriman's Anthro 2A class 44 years ago.
> 
> Just to be clear what I am talking about, I understand cultural relativism to mean that phenomena, such as religion, occur pretty much universally and that while content varies from one culture to the next, the functions of the phenomena are fairly consistent. The popularization of the concept led to some regrettable oversimplifications, some due to dullness, others, such as Bloom's distortions, in support of reactionary argumentation. (For the record, I did read Dimming of the American Mind, I think that's the title, albeit without enthusiasm.) The distortions of Darwin's ideas come to mind as analogous and apposite.
> 
> ...


While no anthropologist myself, I'll let Kav weigh in, I am passingly familiar with the original formulation of the methodology (as that is what it was) by Boas in the early 20th century. I agree also that it has been somewhat bastardized and conflated into moral relativism. However, even bringing it back to Boas' original methodological formulation, if societal mores in the Sudan call for this woman's beheading, he (and his followers) would find that acceptable. What they would not find acceptable is if a Muslim came to a Western country, committed some similar infraction, and the Western country beheaded this person. That is not part of our current society, ergo the practice is not valid with us.

Well, that is as far as my (very) amateur anthropology will take me. Make of it what you will.

Regards


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*I oppose beheading*

Understanding cultural phenomena to be functionally equivolent does not make them morally equivolent.

Gurdon


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Gurdon said:


> Understanding cultural phenomena to be functionally equivolent does not make them morally equivolent.
> 
> Gurdon


You are quite right old chap. Thus my mocking the usual liberal pap earlier in this thread, that conflates the two, which had me deemed as a "known conservative" by you! We have indeed come full circle now and therefore I shall consider this particular sub-thread of the thread put to bed.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Without Frank's permission????????


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Why isn't this woman being helicoptered out from an embassy rooftop?

also, all aid to this backward, godforsaken hellhole should be terminated.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

VS said:


> Why isn't this woman being helicoptered out from an embassy rooftop?
> 
> also, all aid to this backward, godforsaken hellhole should be terminated.


I aggree 150%...I think the next time I see George Clooney's smiling mug hitting up John Q public for donations to go to the Darfur (sp?) somebody should interupt him with clips of those nutcases marching int he streets and calling for this woman to be killed...


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Aren't the people oppressing this woman the same as the ones oppressing Darfur?


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

She's been pardoned. She will be out of Sudan soon.

I was reading through comments on a UK newspaper site over the weekend (can't seem to recall which one) and someone said that the flap may have been provided by parochial concerns (Sudanese teachers resenting foreign teachers). I don't know if that is true. The other comment that seems pertinent is that Sudan is far from a free state and organized protests of the scale seen could not happen without at the very least the tacit assent of the government.

Whether this is just an event to be lost down the memory hole or if it changes UK-Sudanese relations has yet to be seen. Many of the people commenting were saying they should cut off aid to Sudan (I think the UK is #1 or #2 in aid to Sudan).


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

The Gabba Goul said:


> LoL...isn't it great???
> 
> ... I don't really get the Louis XIV comment either...the only thing that I can think is that whoever wrote that meant Louis XVI...


I would assume that the connection is between the word _*basking *_and the fact that Louis XIV is referred to as the *Sun King. *After all ... one can bask in the sunshine. Still, it's an odd comparison.

And yes, I do love it ... and especially your willingness to use it! You are a good sport, Gabba.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

omairp said:


> If I had to explain to a non-muslim how offensive this is (or isn't) I'd say it's somewhat LESS offensive than if a muslim teacher were to name a teddy-bear Jesus.


Except, perhaps, in Puerto Rico.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Concordia said:


> Except, perhaps, in Puerto Rico.


* Offer on valid in the continental United States 



forsbergacct2000 said:


> Aren't the people oppressing this woman the same as the ones oppressing Darfur?


Pretty much. The Sudanese government, who put this lady in jail, has been accused of helping the Janjaweed in their ongoing bloody conflict with Darfurians.


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## Gurdon (Feb 7, 2005)

*Oil and uranium*

There is a lot of oil in Sudan. The Chinese are investing there and are frequently criticized for supporting the regime. I have read news articles asserting that much of the attention to the Darfur genocide is the result of a well financed PR effort intended to facilitate US intervention.

I don't know how much "aid" we or the UK provide compared to what the Chinese are giving them.

There is also uranium in Sudan, and it has, as well, as other exportable resources.

Gurdon


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Rumours are a video will soon be played on Al jazeera of the Teddy Bear being beheaded.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

We need to make the sudan the new testing ground for a better, more destructive A-Bomb.

MrR


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

MrRogers said:


> We need to make the sudan the new testing ground for a better, more destructive A-Bomb.
> 
> MrR


We have a more destructive A-bomb. It's called a hydrogen bomb. H-bombs are 1000 times more powerful than atomic bombs. It works by a fusion reaction rather than a fission reaction. Only a handful of countries have them. 
I don't know if the U.S. even has atomic weapons anymore.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

MrRogers said:


> We need to make the sudan the new testing ground for a better, more destructive A-Bomb.
> 
> MrR


As you launch a nuclear warhead at the Sudanese people as revenge against some ignorant hot-heads, try not to forget who the biggest ignorant hot-head is.

I'm sure that will teach them a lesson in tolerance. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

Interesting perspective. It would have been made more interesting with a bit more strident attention to facts.
1. If in fact there have been 800,000 deaths in Iraq (debatable), about 750,000 of those were not killed by "the West" but by other Muslims.
2. In Chechnya, it was not "the West" that was to blame, but the Russians (not the same thing).
3. Kashmir, as I understand it is principally a Hindu/Muslim conflict.
4. Palestine is complex, but a significant responsibility for the continued conflict there must lie with the corruption of the Palestinian leadership.
5. In Yugoslavia, it was "the West" that came to the defense of Muslims to prevent their genocide.

Muslim anger with "the West" is beginning to grow tiresome. When the Muslim world embraces its own responsibility for much of its suffering, rejects the corruption of its leadership and begins to look forward rather than backward for inspiration it will be positioned to take its place as a full partner in the world community rather than looking to "the West" to solve its problems.


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## Mujib (Jan 8, 2006)

I try to avoid the political discussions here. I say something, or try to, when I find that Islam has been misunderstood and/or misrepresented.

[If in fact there have been 800,000 deaths in Iraq (debatable), about 750,000 of those were not killed by "the West" but by other Muslims.]

This is far, far from a fact, but I'll leave it for the political discussions here.

[When the Muslim world embraces its own responsibility for much of its suffering]

From the article: "...but Muslims must also recognize and denounce these wrongs too often associated with our Prophet and our faith without always pointing fingers elsewhere."


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Ah yes, Mark Hanson, aka Sheik Yusuf. The kid who couldn't grasp the trinity of his Greek Orthodox church or the steering wheel of the car he wrecked in Santa Barbara and had a near death epiphany, or whatever Islam calls it and became a born again Rudolph Valentino. I am always bemused at a religon that claims to be one of the children of Abraham, yet changes convert's names from that family associated with Christianity- So much for a shared heritage. My former acquaintance is another John Walker, only he chose to do his dirt in California and not Tora Bora.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Mark from Plano said:


> When the Muslim world embraces its own responsibility for much of its suffering, rejects the corruption of its leadership... it will be positioned to take its place... in the world community.


Agreed. But this means removing all corrupt leaders regardless of whether they are anti-western or pro-western. There are some corrupt regimes in the Muslim world (i.e. General Musharraf in Pakistan) that are dependant on western aid money for their survival and protection.



Kav said:


> Ah yes, Mark Hanson, aka Sheik Yusuf. I am always bemused at a religon that claims to be one of the children of Abraham, yet changes convert's names from that family associated with Christianity- So much for a shared heritage.


If he changed his name it's because he choses to, not because he's made to. Converts don't need to change their name, unless their name has some distinctly unislamic meaning to it. I know a local Muslim activist who converted from Judaism to Islam and still retains his identifiably Jewish name. If you look on CAIR-CAN's website, it sticks out and should be pretty easy to find. Many people feel re-born when they convert to another religion and feel a new name suits their new start, like when Saul changed his name to Paul in the Bible.



Kav said:


> My former acquaintance is another John Walker, only he chose to do his dirt in California and not Tora Bora.


Do you really want to accuse him of treason? *If that's the case, why was George Bush holding a private meeting with him after 9/11? *Bush sought his input, because he has a strong track record of _rejecting extremism.
_


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## Spence (Feb 28, 2006)

Mark from Plano said:


> When the Muslim world embraces its own responsibility for much of its suffering, rejects the corruption of its leadership and begins to look forward rather than backward for inspiration it will be positioned to take its place as a full partner in the world community rather than looking to "the West" to solve its problems.


Seriously here, hasn't Bin Laden been preaching this exact message for the past 20 years?

-spence


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Mark is Islam's Billy Graham-Jessie Jackson advisor to Presidents. He's american born and part of the dog and pony show along with Rammadan stamps sold by postal clerks told not to wish Merry Christmas a few years ago. Mark's blanket list of moslem grievance's is blatantly a world view through islam, not realpolitik. I would point out Clinton felt no qualms bombing serbians through Easter, although our military efforts agaisnt islamic regimes sems obligated to observe truces during rammadan. Islam views America Christian nation in spite of our multi culturalism. Mark has conveniently forgotten that.


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## Mark from Plano (Jan 29, 2007)

omairp said:


> Agreed. But this means removing all corrupt leaders regardless of whether they are anti-western or pro-western. There are some corrupt regimes in the Muslim world (i.e. General Musharraf in Pakistan) that are dependant on western aid money for their survival and protection.


Fair enough, we don't need "pro-western" leadership in every country in the world, but don't expect us to embrace "anti-western" leadership any more than Muslims would accept an "anti-Muslim" leadership in the West. There's "anti-western" and there's openly antagonistic. All countries have the right of self-defense against aggressors.

As for Musharraf, no one would have called him particularly "pro-Western" until he was forced into that position at the point of a gun after 9-11.



Spence said:


> Seriously here, hasn't Bin Laden been preaching this exact message for the past 20 years?
> 
> -spence


And if that was Bin Laden's only message we might have a lot to agree on. Unfortunately his message gets a bit lost, doesn't it?


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Kav said:


> (Hamza Yusuf) is Islam's Billy Graham-Jessie Jackson advisor to Presidents. He's american born and part of the dog and pony show...


Kav, your ability to contradict yourself is mind-boggling.

* First, you likened Hamza Yusuf to John Walker Lindh, who was charged with conspiracy to murder Americans and aiding Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. I asked you to clarify how you reached such an unsupported conclusion. Now your grievance is that Hamza Yusuf is too FRIENDLY with the American government and the President!!! Which one is it? *:crazy:



Mark from Plano said:


> Fair enough, we don't need "pro-western" leadership in every country in the world, but don't expect us to embrace "anti-western" leadership any more than Muslims would accept an "anti-Muslim" leadership in the West. There's "anti-western" and there's openly antagonistic. All countries have the right of self-defense against aggressors.


Agreed, if people want to vote for governments that aren't warm to western influences, they should understand that they can't expect the regime to get support from the west and should factor that into their decisions to vote for such governments.



Spence said:


> Seriously here, hasn't Bin Laden been preaching this exact message for the past 20 years?


Yes, but Osama Bin Laden's specialty is his ability to take a big ball of lies, inject a tiny drop of truth into it, and feed it to the masses. That's what makes his message so particularly dangerous.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Sheik Ben Yusuf, with whom I have spoken does not have 'friends' in the White House. He has interests. Those interests are not as an american follower of Islam, but only as a moslem. I may be a convert to Orthodoxy in the greek tradition, but I still maintain friendships with a yemeni Imam in San Diego, The deputy director of safety at Istanbul Airport and the Sufi master I studied the Koran with. I have not called upon Turkey to withdraw from Cyprus or replaced Hershey Bars with Baklava. My realpolitik worldview is secular and as a American citizen, to who I give my temporal allegiance first. " Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's." Perhaps I should get stoned, wreck a car in Santa Barbara and have a beautific vision wrapped up in a Halloween costume of change masquerading as superiority.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Kav said:


> Sheik Ben Yusuf, with whom I have spoken does not have 'friends' in the White House. He has interests. Those interests are not as an american follower of Islam, but only as a moslem. I may be a convert to Orthodoxy in the greek tradition, but I still maintain friendships with a yemeni Imam in San Diego, The deputy director of safety at Istanbul Airport and the Sufi master I studied the Koran with. I have not called upon Turkey to withdraw from Cyprus or replaced Hershey Bars with Baklava. My realpolitik worldview is secular and as a American citizen, to who I give my temporal allegiance first. " Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's." Perhaps I should get stoned, wreck a car in Santa Barbara and have a beautific vision wrapped up in a Halloween costume of change masquerading as superiority.


It seems _you're_ the one who has a problem with his identity, not him.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I have issues with people who have profited by a social system or government and then embrace and give undivided loyalty to another that holds it in contempt and hostility, talking out of both smiling sides of their mouths not withstanding. I don't have a problem, I am the problem- to those geshe traitors.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Kav said:


> I don't have a problem, I am the problem


Agreed.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Why do I invision 5 burka clad cheerleaders with pom poms twirling their tongues at your cute retort?


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Kav said:


> Why do I invision 5 burka clad cheerleaders with pom poms twirling their tongues at your cute retort?


You have a wild imagination... maybe Pfizer has a pill for that.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

It will be a pill from western medicine, Islam having abandoned the enlightened thinking of Avincenna for pashtun opium fields. Put that in your hubble bubble.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Kav said:


> It will be a pill from western medicine, Islam having abandoned the enlightened thinking of Avincenna for pashtun opium fields. Put that in your hubble bubble.


The only Pashtun's I know are neurologists and cardiologists here in Edmonton.

But you know better than to let a silly little thing like reality ruin a good argument. :icon_smile_wink:


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

omairp said:


> The only Pashtun's I know are neurologists and cardiologists here in Edmonton.
> 
> But you know better than to let a silly little thing like reality ruin a good argument. :icon_smile_wink:


Nice!...lol


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> The only Pashtun's I know are neurologists and cardiologists here in Edmonton.


Hmmm, that's sound like a racial stereotype now! Who lays the bricks in Pashtun? Picks up the garbage? :icon_smile_big:


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Be nice, or someone will tell the Sudanese Muslims that you called a teddy bear, "Muhammed."

(The reminds me of an incredibly funny exchange in the Monty Python film "Life of Brian" regarding the misuse of the name "Jehovah.")


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