# Trad and the Dress-up Shirt



## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

Gentlemen,

Although a lowly student, I happily have a series of dinner gatherings and weddings and such to attend this upcoming year. I have planned ahead for this by purchasing the perfect navy blue suit from BB. However, the only button-front shirts I own at present are OCBDs and a broadcloth BD from Brooks. Is it utterly absurd to plan to wear button-down collars at nice events? A wedding, even? I detest plain collars on aesthetic grounds and prefer oxford cloth to smoother fabrics. Everything in my minimalist instincts is telling me not to throw money at some shirt that I will only take off the shelf 3 or 4 times a year. But my girlfriend informs me that it is preposterous not to own a single 'suit-worthy dress shirt.' Now, when it comes to dressing for occasions my view is that it's all very well and good to have one's own style, but that one ought not knowingly offend. If there is a considerable swathe of people who would deem me inappropriately dressed in a BD collar, maybe I should consider the purchase of the obligatory white broadcloth point-collar. I guess what I am asking is, for those of you who own such a shirt, is there any way to come to terms with it in the broader context of your wardrobe, say, with shorts or with sweater and jeans?


----------



## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

I think your GF is right. I've worn OCBDs with tweed suits and sportcoats, but IMO they don't look right with a business suit. FWIW, I have a Truzzi dress shirt with spread collar and French cuffs in OC (not pinpoint). If you can get past the BD part, such shirts are out there-not easy to find OTR, but certainly can be MTO.


As far as a broadcloth point or spread-collar shirt with more casual clothing, they look fine. A barrel cuff will keep it from overwhelming chinos, cords and such.


----------



## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

I last wore something other than a button down collar in June of 2009. Nobody takes a second look, esp. if it has become your style. I'm somewhat surprised by the question: on the PBS Newshour (which is the bulk of my currrent US television viewing) I see people wearing button down collars all the time. I could even be pushed into saying that the majority seem to be wearing them, even with suits.


----------



## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

If someone is offended by your pairing a clean, pressed, OCBD with a clean, pressed navy wool suit to the point that they bring it up, then smile, offer your apologies, excuse yourself, go to the bar, order a gin-and-tonic, and toast the bride-and-groom with the tender. 

Oh...and also make a mental note that the offendee (who may be technically correct) is a complete a$$ for making it an issue. If the offendee is your girlfriend/fiancee, then instead of a gin-and-tonic go straight to the bourbon...neat.


----------



## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

As you say, you will be called upon to wear a "suit worthy dress shirt" on only a few occasions. So why not please your girlfriend. If she wore casual shoes to such occasions, it bothered you, and you told her that it bothered you, wouldn't you want her to put on a dressier pair? If she blew you off, how would you feel?


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

unmodern said:


> Is it utterly absurd to plan to wear button-down collars at nice events? A wedding, even?


Many have had their Trad/CT cards revoked for even lesser thought crimes than this.

Such feelings must be repressed and repressed soundly.


----------



## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

I would say get a white point or spread broadcloth. Keep it for wearing with suits: you may need it more often in the future than you do now.

At the same time, lots of people wear BD collars with suits, at least here in the U.S. I wouldn't wear it to diplomatic events, but who's going to such things anyways? So if you really want to stick with the BD, you can. If a OCBD seems too informal to you or your girlfriend, get a pinpoint: everyone should be happy.


----------



## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

Keep in mind that not every wedding calls for the utmost in finery. Sometimes its nice to tone it down a bit with the odd white ocbd. Also, check just how white your white ocbd's presently are. They do get a bit dingy along the way. Maybe you can make her happy by just getting a new one. IMHO a white pinpoint spread collar with french cuffs is good bit spiffier than an ocbd.


----------



## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

arkirshner said:


> If she wore casual shoes to such occasions, it bothered you, and you told her that it bothered you, wouldn't you want her to put on a dressier pair?


This is creepily getting into Jimmy-Stewart-from-*Vertigo *territory...


----------



## statboy (Sep 1, 2010)

Do it. And know it's technically wrong....then you're good.


----------



## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

People will tell you otherwise, but there's nothing inconsistent about wearing a buttondown collar with a suit.

Straight collars are, indeed, more formal than buttondown collars, but that doesn't mean they're inconsistent with suits. The notion that they are, IMHO, has arisen in recent years from people who consider wearing a suit to be a dramatic undertaking: a sort of leap into high formality. Traditionally (this is the Trad forum, right?) a suit is everyday business wear. After you wear one every weekday for 15 or 20 years (as professionals did, not just traditionally, but pretty much up to the end of the 20th century), you don't get all obsessive about shirt collars and other weird rules that have largely been invented in the last few years, based (I guess) on some storybook version of what people did in 1910.

I don't exactly understand what "trad" is, so don't take this as law or anything, but it seems the touchstone of the style is '50s and early '60s Ivy League wear. The relevant people certainly wore buttondown collars with suits, not only when they were in college, but in most cases for the rest of their working lives.

There are, of course, situations where a higher level of formality than just ordinary "suit and regular shirt" is called for. In most cases, those situations would call for black tie, though there are some where an intermediate level is appropriate. If it were your _own_ wedding, for example, I'd counsel against a buttondown collar. If you're just a guest, though, just wearing a suit at all probably puts you ahead of many of your peers on the formality scale.


----------



## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Girlfriends come and girlfriends go but OCBDs are forever.


----------



## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks, all, for the advice. This is tough because it's my first grown-up suit, so I just don't know _how _I wear it yet. I think I'll give it a go with the OCBDs and see if I look and feel comfortable. Otherwise, BB's Ainsley collar in white looks pretty nice.

P.S. SWMBO has strong opinions on all my clothing. Unlike me, she went to a prep school, so she generally winces when I go too preppy. I can't really complain, though, because she has great, classic taste and always buys me nice stuff!


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Get a point/spread collar with French cuffs. Add a white pocket square.

Trust me, you'll look so classy that you'll wonder why you never did this before.


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

Someone, somewhere said the whole idea behind the tinsil/new england style was to dress up the casual and dress down the formal.

I don;t think anyone at the event will notice, or care if you're wearing a button down collar, and I rather like wearing one with a suit. 
Hell, wear one with a tux if you like (I though Tom Townsend looked cool with his ocbd/tux/raincoat in _Metropolitan_).

I'd avoid point collars, maybe I'm just an unwitting victim of some larger trend, but I don't think I've worn a point collar in three plus years. Their appeal is lost on me.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Avoid point collars no matter what, even with "tuxes" or when they'd suit the occasion much better... victim of a larger trend... gotcha.

Are you sure you're not Mr. Browne himself?


----------



## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> Someone, somewhere said the whole idea behind the tinsil/new england style was to dress up the casual and dress down the formal.


I agree with this. I wear OCBDs, LHSs, and 3/2 natural-shouldered sack suits all the time. No one's ever questioned the correctness of my appearance, and I look (and possibly feel) a lot more comfortable than the guys who wear the Continental-inspired clothes. I think TNSIL, because of its relaxed look and ease of wear, helps me to come across as a warm, friendly person. I can't imagine feeling that way in a spread collar, built-up shoulders, high armholes, and a nipped-in waist!


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

Jovan said:


> Avoid point collars no matter what, even with "tuxes" or when they'd suit the occasion much better... victim of a larger trend... gotcha.





Jovan said:


> Are you sure you're not Mr. Browne himself?




Yup, I'm not sure point collars ever look better than a spread or bd.

I guess I sometimes like how floppy point collars look, like on Chris Matthews, or Patrick form waywn.


----------



## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I have a very strong suspicion that Chris Matthews' shirts are Mercer. Anyone have the inside track?


----------



## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

I'd heard that, most likely from this forum.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> Yup, I'm not sure point collars ever look better than a spread or bd.
> 
> I guess I sometimes like how floppy point collars look, like on Chris Matthews, or Patrick form waywn.


I guess I meant a regular collar.


----------



## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

Wear a blindingly white OCBD to the events. That combined with a navy BB suit, repp tie, and quality shoes will put you in the top 2% of guests for attire. Your GF is testing you to see if you have the backbone to stand your ground. When she sees you and says something about the OCBD, look deeply into her eyes and say quietly, "Don't tell me what to wear." snugging your tie at the same time.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I hope that last bit is a joke.


----------



## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

Starch said:


> ...Straight collars are, indeed, more formal than buttondown collars, but that doesn't mean they're inconsistent with suits. The notion that they are, IMHO, has arisen in recent years from people who consider wearing a suit to be a dramatic undertaking: a sort of leap into high formality...


I think this is a very trenchant observation.

The idea that an OCBD is un-suitworthy is preposterous. Having said that, if you want to go more formal, a great option that for some reason no one around here ever mentions is the blue with contrasting white collar. When I was growing up, that was a trad staple.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Larsd4 said:


> Wear a blindingly white OCBD to the events. That combined with a navy BB suit, repp tie, and quality shoes will put you in the top 2% of guests for attire. Your GF is testing you to see if you have the backbone to stand your ground. When she sees you and says something about the OCBD, look deeply into her eyes and say quietly, "Don't tell me what to wear." snugging your tie at the same time.


Best advice ever!!


----------



## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

I used to be in the camp the OCBDs are not appropriate for suits, but have come around in my views. It is certainly a more casual look than even an broadcloth or pinpoint button down. Look at pictures of Cardinal in the WAYWT thread for examples of how good an OCBD looks with a suit.


----------



## cmacey (May 3, 2009)

Although I do not believe the OCBD mixes well with a tie, that is only me. Plenty of history between the two...if you like the look, wear the combination and be proud. In a pinch, I would even wear the two together!


----------



## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

Jovan said:


> I hope that last bit is a joke.


jk, but not the OCBD advice.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I still think one should get a couple of straight/plain/whateveryoucallit collar shirts. One with button cuff, the other with French cuff. If you're that stringently against them however, at least get a pinpoint or broadcloth button down collar shirt (and have it pressed!) -- non-royal oxford is a pretty informal fabric.


----------



## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

It's not that hard. While I am a strong proponent that wearing buttondowns with suits is perfectly acceptable in most situations and do it myself on a daily basis, I do feel a bit dressier in a point collar shirt for certain more formal occasions. My solution is simple. I have a couple of white and one blue pinpoint must-iron Brooks Brothers shirts for just such occasions. Besides, I sometimes just like a change of pace. Since BB must irons are my go-to shirts, having a couple of the same basic shirts with what I consider the best forward point collar on the market is just the ticket. Frankly, I doubt if anyone but me notices the difference--but that's really what it's all about is it not? I also like the BB Ainsley spread collar, and they do offer it in white broadcloth must iron--but I have a square face and the spread collar just makes it look more so. Either the point or spread BB should satisfy even the most ardent "Trad" in one of their rare must iron pinpoint (or even more rare broadcloth) models.


----------



## unmodern (Aug 10, 2009)

Jovan, I do have one broadcloth BD that might be a bit more suit-appropriate. But I am considering extending my dress shirt wardrobe from 6 to a whopping 8 the next time BB does 2 for $99 or some such.

Saltydog, thanks for replying. I agree that BB's point- and spread-collars are quite attractive.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You'd do well to go that path. Good luck!


----------



## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

If for no reason other than interviews (you just never know when), you should have at least 1 forward point or spread collar shirt


----------



## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Larsd4 said:


> Wear a blindingly white OCBD to the events. That combined with a navy BB suit, repp tie, and quality shoes will put you in the top 2% of guests for attire. Your GF is testing you to see if you have the backbone to stand your ground. When she sees you and says something about the OCBD, look deeply into her eyes and say quietly, "Don't tell me what to wear." snugging your tie at the same time.


I also couldn't agree more with this advice. I have no idea _who_ came up with the "rule" about not wearing buttondowns with suits, but I reject it out of hand. I see everyone from U.S. Senators to CEO's of Fortune 500 companies to respected television commentators wearing buttondowns with suits regularly. I guess they didn't get the memo. And somehow they became tremendously successful...and respected. In fact, if you'll notice, "The Most Trusted Man In America", Walter Cronkite, was wearing an ocbd on television when he made the historic announcement that President Kennedy had been pronouced dead. He had abandoned his coat at the moment and shed his one and only tear on camera. Yes, in that iconic moment he was wearing an ocbd.

I've been in a high profile management position for over 20 years and have yet to hear any executive say something like, "Well, Joe is a great employee and a good man...he would probably get more respect _if only he wouldn't wear those wretched button-down shirts with his suits!" _Probably because most of his fellow execs are wearing them as well. It is a silly notion. Think for yourself. If you like the look of a nice buttondown--wear it proudly with a suit. As many people will probably (if they notice it at all) think it is more proper than the plain old regular collar as not.

What difference can it possibly make? OCBDs were made popular in the nation's most hallowed halls of learning were they not? They still carry that connotation regardless of what they are worn with for the majority of the population in America, I suspect.

<Rant Over>

Perhaps an argument could be made over quality of material...but not logically over buttondown collars.


----------



## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

It's only for a few occasions. Get a nice crisp white non ocbd and bring her with you when you buy it. When she pays for it, which you said she does on some occasions, bring two ocbds with the white shirt at the register. Tell her that the BB special on shiirts is 3 for $209. Problem solved!


----------



## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

OCBD's go with trad suits, eg.J Press. They do not go with European cut suits or British blade cut in hard finished cloth.

Broadcloth is the most formal shirt fabric for city day suits. A button down broadcloth borders on the oxymoronic. Oxford cloth, including pinpoint, and flannel are best for button downs.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Button Downs are okay with suits, especially in everyday type situations. There would be nothing wrong (except to Clothing Board People) with wearing the OCBD with your suit at a wedding, especially since you are still a student. 

A point or spread collar shirt would be dressier. Also, if your girlfriend likes a certain shirt better, it might be good to have one.


----------



## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

arkirshner said:


> OCBD's go with trad suits, eg.J Press. They do not go with European cut suits or British blade cut in hard finished cloth.


Simple solution. Don't buy those suits with which OCBDs would not go. Stick with either trad or classic American suits.


----------



## dmac (Jun 30, 2006)

As a compromise, see if she can live with (and pay for) a white button down dress shirt in sea island cotton from O'Connells. You will have the most elegant shirt in the room while retaining the button down collar.


----------



## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Being one who does not own an OCBD (and I flatly refuse to wear them, just not my thing), I'd like to reference the SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE who wears an OCBD everywhere, with everything, including the last State of the Union. In CT, you'd be perfect ok wearing an OCBD. Would I do it in the city, or on the west coast? No.


----------



## cmacey (May 3, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Being one who does not own an OCBD (and I flatly refuse to wear them, just not my thing), I'd like to reference the SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE who wears an OCBD everywhere, with everything, including the last State of the Union. In CT, you'd be perfect ok wearing an OCBD. Would I do it in the city, or on the west coast? No.


I just got back from Philly (for work today) -- visited Geno's Steaks -- wearing my blue OCBD, Bill's khakis, and EG dovers...not a bad place.


----------



## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Being one who does not own an OCBD (and I flatly refuse to wear them, just not my thing), I'd like to reference the SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE who wears an OCBD everywhere, with everything, including the last State of the Union. In CT, you'd be perfect ok wearing an OCBD. Would I do it in the city, or on the west coast? No.


I am on record that button downs can be worn with trad suits but pointing to John Boehner as an example actually makes the argument weaker as he is a man who calls CO2 a carcinogen , thinks the idea that CO2 causes climate change is "laughable" and blames global warming in part on cow flatulence.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Kirsh, as a general rule we can talk about how politicians' dress relates to what image they're trying to project, but try not to get too political outside the Interchange.


----------



## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Jovan:

My comment was not meant to be political. One of the truly great political thinkers of the 20th century, the late William Buckley worn buttondowns with trad suits.

https://www.loc.gov/about/awardshonors/livinglegends/bio/buckleyw.html

https://www.google.com/imgres?q=wil...34&tbnw=86&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0

https://www.google.com/imgres?q=wil...&tbnw=103&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:0

Mr. Buckley was a man with character, charm, intelligence, style, and manners, everything a gentleman should aspire towards. Citing Mr. Buckley as an example of the propriety of wearing OCBDs with suits, (or as an example of anything he may have done ), carries great weight, in fact I should say it is dispositive of the button down question.

On the other hand Mr. Boehner is no Bill Buckley. In June Mr. Boehner gave the commencement at my associate's son's graduation at Ohio State. He opened by telling Congressman Weiner jokes and pointed out his name was often mispronounced, sometimes as "boner".
This man may be cited as an example of a successful politician, but he cannot be cited as an example of a man of style.

Having explained my comment, out of respect for you, Jovan, I shall say nothing more.


----------



## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

All good. I just worry that the thread would get political and thus derailed dramatically!


----------



## M Go Crimson (Aug 20, 2011)

I am in the same age group as you and perception amongst our peers seems to be that an OCBD is never to be worn with a suit, especially in a more formal setting such as a traditional wedding. My go to shirt for weddings is a BB w/ ainsley collar unless otherwise requested by the couple or girlfriend.


----------



## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

cmacey said:


> I just got back from Philly (for work today) -- visited Geno's Steaks -- wearing my blue OCBD, Bill's khakis, and EG dovers...not a bad place.


Ahh, the venerable Geno's and Pat's. Philly institutions that exist for tourists and those with nowhere else to go at 3am. Joey Vento, founder of Geno's just passed (of a heart attack, go figure) on August 23rd; RIP. I'm curious if the place was a bit of a madhouse, it is a big local news story. Quite the charismatic guy he was.

Next time you're in Philly, hit up Jim's Steaks on South Street (started by Joey Vento's father), or Steve's (my favorite) in the Northeast. Both are MUCH better steaks than what you can get in South Philly.

Your attire was quite appropriate; my mention of an OCBD in the city refers to it with a business suit. However, in New England or the south, I see no issue with it whatsoever.



arkirshner said:


> I am on record that button downs can be worn with trad suits but pointing to John Boehner as an example actually makes the argument weaker as he is a man who calls CO2 a carcinogen , thinks the idea that CO2 causes climate change is "laughable" and blames global warming in part on cow flatulence.


I don't think Boehner's politics weigh negatively to the trad OCBD/suit argument, but to each their own. I'm a professed centrist (and registered Dem), but maintain a lot of respect for the Speaker, even in light of his, umm, 'far-off' views. My favorite is when he was challenged for smoking outside the capital, he said to the reporter 'It's legal, leave me alone (puff puff)'. Given some of the alternatives coughcoughmichellebachmancoughcough, he's one of my favorite GOP politicians.

Frankly, making that joke at an Ohio State commencement, I find hilarious, and absolutely something from a man of style. How else is he getting these 21-22 year old kids to pay attention to him? Well played, sir.


----------



## cmacey (May 3, 2009)

TheGreatTwizz said:


> Ahh, the venerable Geno's and Pat's. Philly institutions that exist for tourists and those with nowhere else to go at 3am. Joey Vento, founder of Geno's just passed (of a heart attack, go figure) on August 23rd; RIP. I'm curious if the place was a bit of a madhouse, it is a big local news story. Quite the charismatic guy he was.
> 
> Next time you're in Philly, hit up Jim's Steaks on South Street (started by Joey Vento's father), or Steve's (my favorite) in the Northeast. Both are MUCH better steaks than what you can get in South Philly.
> 
> Your attire was quite appropriate; my mention of an OCBD in the city refers to it with a business suit. However, in New England or the south, I see no issue with it whatsoever.


Thanks for those suggestions; I will. As to Geno's, you would never have known of his passing - not a single indication that anything out of the usual had gone on. A lady even got a "telling off" for not knowing what she wanted to order by one of the staff...I was warned about this so I had my "Provolone...Freedom Fries" order at the ready  The only way I found out about his passing was through the people I was dealing with - they knew I was going to eat lunch there...


----------



## JDDY (Mar 18, 2006)

I usually prefer button down collar for sport coat and point or moderate spread for a suit. Button down certainly flies though. Evening makes a slight difference for me, I would be more likely to opt for BD with a suit for daytime. I'd consider the fabric as well though- imo the traditional oxford doesn't match up as well with finer textured worsteds but looks better with tweed/cord/hopsack/flannel etc. A broadcloath BD is nice and definitely valuable in the summer for more casual wear. Not a bad idea to have a plain color white and/or light blue in the stable though. I like this shirt in a moderate spread for wear with a suit down to shorts. More on the Brit side but fills a niche:

https://mercerandsons.com/835LBL-250pxl.JPG


----------



## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Saltydog said:


> I also couldn't agree more with this advice. I have no idea _who_ came up with the "rule" about not wearing buttondowns with suits, but I reject it out of hand. I see everyone from U.S. Senators to CEO's of Fortune 500 companies to respected television commentators wearing buttondowns with suits regularly. I guess they didn't get the memo. And somehow they became tremendously successful...and respected. In fact, if you'll notice, "The Most Trusted Man In America", Walter Cronkite, was wearing an ocbd on television when he made the historic announcement that President Kennedy had been pronouced dead. He had abandoned his coat at the moment and shed his one and only tear on camera. Yes, in that iconic moment he was wearing an ocbd.
> 
> I've been in a high profile management position for over 20 years and have yet to hear any executive say something like, "Well, Joe is a great employee and a good man...he would probably get more respect _if only he wouldn't wear those wretched button-down shirts with his suits!" _Probably because most of his fellow execs are wearing them as well. It is a silly notion. Think for yourself. If you like the look of a nice buttondown--wear it proudly with a suit. As many people will probably (if they notice it at all) think it is more proper than the plain old regular collar as not.
> 
> ...


This was a very good post.


----------

