# BBC 4 "Savile Row" programme part one tonight



## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hi everyone, 
Just a quick "heads-up" for those who might be interested. The first part of a 3-part series on Savile Row and the conflict between the tailors and Abercrombie and Fitch begins tonight at 9pm on BBC4 with repeats throughout the week. The synopsis from the Radio Times below reads as follows:

"1/3. Filmed over a year, a look the tailoring houses of Savile Row, synonymous with the best in bespoke tailoring for two centuries. The tailors view a giant jeanswear company's arrival on the street with trepidation. With spiralling rents are rising and craftspeople moving out and large hedge fund companies and chains moving in, what is the future for the businesses where a two-piece suit can start at £2,500, and take 80 hours of expert work?"

Maybe this will be available online for those of you outside of the UK or perhaps someone with a DVD recorder could record it for interested parties overseas.

Hope this helps,
Chris.


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## noss (Apr 1, 2007)

If you go to the BBC iplayer you can watch all of the BBc programmes after they have been shown again for up to seven days afterwards.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

But only in the UK, noss - lest you get the overseas members overexcited!


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## maxnharry (Dec 3, 2004)

Rossini said:


> But only in the UK, noss - lest you get the overseas members overexcited!


Yes-we do get excited. BBC programming is outstanding and I wish we could get it in the States. I would pay the entire UK TV tax to do so. I really wish that the BBC could come up with a way to accomodate use and unfortunately BBC America doesn't do it.

If anyone here knows someone in BCC management, do you have any insight on their ability to do this?


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## Cordovan (Feb 1, 2008)

Does anyone know how to get a copy of the special in the states? 

Thank you

Cordovan


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## matthewgb (Dec 31, 2005)

*Programme so far*

Excellent programme so far.

Looks like many of the tailors on the row are only alive thanks our cousins over the pond (in the US!).

Rather surprised to see my own cutter being interviewed, especially given his and the firm's rather clandestine history when it comes to matters media. Nevertheless, I suppose as a working perspective on "The Row" they could hardly not be involved.

As stated earlier, I believe the programme can be downloaded and viewed on the BBC's iplayer.

Matthew


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## noss (Apr 1, 2007)

Rossini said:


> But only in the UK, noss - lest you get the overseas members overexcited!


Oh right, I assumed that because it is on the web anyone could watch it?


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

I only caught the last 15 minutes. Long enough to see the Abercrombie & Fitch CEO(?) get fitted for his Savile Row suit in flip-flops. I hope they take that into account when adjusting the trouser break.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

Just finished watching the first episode. It's pretty well done -- apart from a slight obsession with the price of Savile Row suits, it's a thoughtful, respectful and rather affectionate portrait of the Row. Numerous familiar faces - I'm surprised how many people agreed to be interviewed for the series.


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## Magnus (Oct 20, 2007)

I agree. There was quite a lot of talk about prices but other than that I really enjoyed the first epsiode and the insights it provided. Even my fiancee was glued to the TV. I'm really looking forward to the next episode.


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## tiealign (Nov 16, 2005)

So is anyone going to post this on youtube?


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## Infrasonic (May 18, 2007)

I've not done it but have read that you can circumvent the UK only nature of some BBCi webcasts by going via a uk based proxy server (there are a few out there that'll allow access to anyone). One of the more technically inclined might know what the ins and outs of this are.
Essentially you'll be spoofing a UK ip address (I think !!)

As far as I know the BBC and Youtube have a deal for showing stuff, so it could well end up on there. Certainly the BBC site has YT, myspace etc. links on it.

HTH

I


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

a smashing programme.

i must admit the 'dude' from anderson & sheppard in his dark chalk stripe suit looked OUTSTANDING !

savile row , best in the world !

and you dont have to spend ludicrous sums like 50 grand for a suit that takes 60 to 80 hours work like some italian houses.


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## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

I thought it was excellent. Just when I get fed up with paying my TV tax for its endless populist tripe spiced with a bit of liberal/left politics, the BBC comes along and produces something worthwhile like this. 

There was a bit of a fixation with the cost, but they also were at pains to point out that, over the life of the garment, it worked out much the same as off the peg clothing. 

I particularly liked the bearded gent who ran the hunting tailors and who visited the old crofter weaving the Harris Tweed. I was pleased to see a fellow cycling commuter who dresses 'normally' and doesn't feel the need to look like a high altitude parachutist. 

As for the CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch, I'd love to know who his surgeon is. He had the 'sixteen going on sixty-five' look down to a tee...


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## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

Well if anyone ever finds a way for us "downunder" to see the program don't forget to tell us.

Mychael


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Like the others I thought it was a very good program there was so much content I do not know what is going into the other two episodes. The "dude" was Mr John Hitchcock.

I was particularly interested in the piece on Harris Tweed. Is Mr Big going to cut off the supply of yarn to the small independent weavers or was that just to keep us watching?

I am waiting for next Monday. The short program before on the recent history of the suit was an unexpected bonus.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Holdfast said:


> I only caught the last 15 minutes. Long enough to see the Abercrombie & Fitch CEO(?) get fitted for his Savile Row suit in flip-flops. I hope they take that into account when adjusting the trouser break.


Yeah, but how much surgery had that guy had? He was really frightening!
Some interesting quotes there, especially from Johnny Allen: "Many S Row tailors are quite poor" 
Get in a conversation with Johnny and sooner or later he'll come out with something like that. :icon_smile_big:

I don't know why but I thought the guys at A&S seemed to be living up to the stereotype just for the sake of it.
"Oh no, we don't advertise, we don't even make the label visible inside the jacket"
At one time this was greatly respected and was well worth advocating because there were so many tailors on the Row and so much business.
But surely now it must be time to advertise??
I just found myself shouting "IDIOTS!" at the screen 
They claim they don't need to because of word of mouth etc. but eventually their client base will die out and they'll struggle I'm sure of it.

Sad to see what's going on at Harris Tweed, if that's true about 100's of patterns being reduced to just 5 then that's a shame.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

*Embarassing..*

I cringed for forty minutes and then had to switch the thing off.
Every tired cliche was recycled...all that BS about SR suits never wearing out or going out of fashion...and as for that suit A&S are making for Nick Foulkes!!
Everyone came across as a bit smarmy.

*W_B*


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

whistle_blower71 said:


> I cringed for forty minutes and then had to switch the thing off.
> Every tired cliche was recycled...all that BS about SR suits never wearing out or going out of fashion...and as for that suit A&S are making for Nick Foulkes!!
> Everyone came across as a bit smarmy.
> 
> *W_B*


That's what I thought for much of it.
They've missed an opportunity here to make the Row more accessible and presentable and instead they've really enjoyed living up to all the old Gentleman's club stereotypes.
I doubt if any potential new clients are considering visiting the Row after that.
It came across as intimidating and elitist which is what puts a lot of people off.

And what is it about Nick Foulkes? He seems to get into every single video clip or documentary about the Row that I've ever seen!
Does he live there..?


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

*I bring good tidings.*



culverwood;699924
I am waiting for next Monday. The short program before on the recent history of the suit was an unexpected bonus.[/quote said:


> The programme title is 'Ready to Wear', note the present tense, I didn't buy into all of the assertions that were made, but some of the stark facts were very stark, the collapse of the UK clothing industry highlighted by the demise of Burton, twelve thousand people laid off and the demolition of the factory in Leeds in 1973.
> 
> You will be delighted to hear that we are to get an additional bonus, there is a further episode next Monday, same time slot, starting with the fifties and covering the advent of Teddy boys, through to Mods & Rockers.
> 
> I hope the film archives have been well and truly raided.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,
Well I'm glad so many of you managed to catch the programme. I really enjoyed it myself. 

Roll on part 2! 

Chris.


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## Brideshead (Jan 11, 2006)

I watched it with interest. While I enjoyed the programme, I agree with those who have said it was an opportunity missed in a sense.

Also, as I watched it the following went through my mind:

While some of those involved clearly ‘led by example’, looking extremely well turned out to my eyes, others looked less than special – tie stopping some way short of the waistband, large Windsor style knots, etc. The phrase ‘less than the sum of its parts’ kept going through my head!

Quality does not equal style! If I had not known that I was watching a programme about the Row I am sure I would have found some customers and tailors/owners alike looking rather drab and uninteresting - others looked 'flash'.

Fascinating to see the lengths some would go to to keep a lid on demand – even to the extent of employing a sales manager to do just that!

I did enjoy the bit about Harris Tweed and the Explorer's suit.


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## Winot (Oct 12, 2006)

I enjoyed it despite the fact that it was pretty cliched telly. I wonder how much of a hand the PR people for the Savile Row Bespoke Association had in it or whether the bias against Abercrombie & Fitch (warranted, naturally) will be redressed in later episodes.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Brideshead said:


> I watched it with interest. While I enjoyed the programme, I agree with those who have said it was an opportunity missed in a sense.
> 
> Also, as I watched it the following went through my mind:
> 
> ...


I agree some of the tailors could have made more effort. After all the film is a good opportunity for people to see the merchandise you're selling.
That A&S line about employing a salesman to turn people away just made me cringe. It sounds too much like Savile Row legend i.e. bullshit.



Winot said:


> I enjoyed it despite the fact that it was pretty cliched telly. I wonder how much of a hand the PR people for the Savile Row Bespoke Association had in it or whether the bias against Abercrombie & Fitch (warranted, naturally) will be redressed in later episodes.


I would like to think that the SRB Association weren't too involved with that. I don't know about the other members but I'm sure that Mark Henderson wouldn't have wanted it to by so cliched and stuffy.
I could be wrong.


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## Leon (Apr 16, 2005)

A very affectionate portrayal, i thought. 

Interesting to see so many bespoke suits actually being worn and moving! 

The landlord's agent was a hawk in dove's clothing though: one minute claiming to champion the Row, the next turfing tailors out of their workrooms, and not necessarily rehousing them, and trying to get rid of Dege & Skinner's flowerpots.

Leon


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

SHURELY the tailors cant be blamed for a missed opurtunity !

the product we saw onscreen was ENTIRELY down to BBC editors.

we saw exactly what they wanted us to see .

i thought it was a great programme , i like the elitism of the row.

200 years of tradition , heritage and ettiquette must be preserved at all costs , non of this touchy feely , folksy bollocks of the mid 20th century onwards.

for the work involved and the finished product , 2 and a half grand is a steal.


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## tricota (Dec 20, 2007)

Rossini said:


> But only in the UK, noss - lest you get the overseas members overexcited!


Not sure if I can mention it here, but if you are familiar with torrent files, you can download the file for the program at Uknova, registration is needed however, but well worth it, not just for this program.

Thats what I did anyways...


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

^ that's the kind of technical intelligence we need!

Meanwhile, it's on again at 21.15 on Saturday for receivers of BBC4.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

I've managed to watch the whole thing through now.



Bonhamesque said:


> Yeah, but how much surgery had that guy had? He was really frightening!


Just think, soon he'll be walking advert for both plastic surgery and bespoke tailoring.......



> I don't know why but I thought the guys at A&S seemed to be living up to the stereotype just for the sake of it.


They love it, that's why.



Brideshead said:


> I did enjoy the bit about Harris Tweed and the Explorer's suit.


The Explorer suit was very interesting, and the Explorer himself no less so. Great fun. I loved the manic glint in his eye as he made suggestions to raise the "hoodie" and add an extra hook on the back of the lapel. Eccentric but nice about it.


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## Armchair (Nov 12, 2006)

Forgive my ignorance, but was the narrator pronouncing 'Gieves' correctly? I had always assumed it was pronounced 'Jeeves' (as in Jeeves & Wooster).


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Nope -- hard G.

Tricky, those English -- Gieves pronounced with hard G, Kilgour pronounced Kil'-gard... Boateng pronounced "flashy crap"...


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

RJman said:


> Nope -- hard G.
> 
> Tricky, those English -- Gieves pronounced with hard G, Kilgour pronounced Kil'-gard... Boateng pronounced "flashy crap"...


:icon_smile_big:

LOL!!

I had no idea about the pronunciation of Gieves or Kilgour myself but it seems I was well aware of how to pronounce Boateng!

Chris.


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## morgan (Sep 24, 2005)

*Wow!*

Who made that suit at 31' 17 and at 53' 42? It looked fantastic. As did most of the clothes, of course.

As for the rest of the programme, it was badly edited, (seemingly by some poor booby stricken with Parkinson's), badly written (Justin Timberlake for goodness' sake) and made a category mistake in comparing SR with A&F in the first place. It's hardly comparing apples with apples in my view; different target markets with different needs.

But I did think it was wonderful to see how multi-racial the Row is and endearing to see my aunt's cousin Andrew Ramroop retaining a little of his Trini accent!


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hi,

What I think will be interesting is to see whether the differences between the tailors and their particular markets are emphasised in future programmes or not. The first programme was all about solidarity and resisting the arrival of a retail store but how about the uproar that Ozwald Boateng and Richard James etc caused when they first arrived? It will be interesting to see whether that is mentioned at any point. I can remember reading an article about Mr. Boateng organising a fashion show in the middle of the Row itself which was closed to traffic for the day. All of the tailors were invited to take part but, as I remember, none of the established houses did!

From a personal point of view I'd also love to hear what the other tailors think about the likes of Kilgour and Hardy Amies these days. More fashion houses than tailors perhaps? The Norton website says that many of Hardy Amies' suits came from them and not his own firm anyhow which is hardly much of an endorsement is it!

Chris.


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## tricota (Dec 20, 2007)

morgan said:


> Who made that suit at 31' 17 and at 53' 42? It looked fantastic. As did most of the clothes, of course.
> 
> As for the rest of the programme, it was badly edited, (seemingly by some poor booby stricken with Parkinson's), badly written (Justin Timberlake for goodness' sake) and made a category mistake in comparing SR with A&F in the first place. It's hardly comparing apples with apples in my view; different target markets with different needs.
> 
> But I did think it was wonderful to see how multi-racial the Row is and endearing to see my aunt's cousin Andrew Ramroop retaining a little of his Trini accent!


I have to agree with you on some of the points. The guy (and it did seam to be just _one_ guy with a camera) didnt have any knowledge about the issues or SR and didnt seam to grasp why the tailors were up in arms. And yes, it could have been edited a lot better. Most of the time if was just him filming things that were nice enough, but perhaps not nessesary, and him asking rather pointless questions.

But still, it was an hour of some of the best mens clothes in the world, and I am definitely there again next week!


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Bonhamesque said:


> I would like to think that the SRB Association weren't too involved with that. I don't know about the other members but I'm sure that Mark Henderson wouldn't have wanted it to by so cliched and stuffy.
> I could be wrong.


There was a credit to them at the end of the program so they probably were involved.


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## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

Bonhamesque said:


> That's what I thought for much of it.
> They've missed an opportunity here to make the Row more accessible and presentable and instead they've really enjoyed living up to all the old Gentleman's club stereotypes.
> I doubt if any potential new clients are considering visiting the Row after that.
> It came across as intimidating and elitist which is what puts a lot of people off.
> ...


Why on earth does the Row need to be made more 'accessible and presentable'??? If people want a hip and happening clothing experience, they can go to every single High Street in the entire United Kingdom and get some trendy overpriced crap sold to them by a wispy haired teenager, or if they want bespoke they can go to one of the many off-row trendy tailors beloved of the New Labour and the rest of the modernising, tradition-hating champagne socialists that infest this country.

People go to the Row BECAUSE of its 'gentlemens' clubs stereotypes' (plus some little things called quality and tradition) because they can't get that anywhere else.

You might as well turn White's into a kebab shop!


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

I am downloading the programme all 600mb to test the BBC's iplayer with a file on my hard disk. Unfortunately the BBC's server is sending at around 60k per second rather than around 500k max for my BT broadband connection. It will probably take a couple hours to download the file. It should be quicker to email it with a the iplayer but it would be breaking the licence conditions....


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

morgan said:


> But I did think it was wonderful to see how multi-racial the Row is and endearing to see my aunt's cousin Andrew Ramroop retaining a little of his Trini accent!


Do you get a family discount?


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hi,
> 
> What I think will be interesting is to see whether the differences between the tailors and their particular markets are emphasised in future programmes or not. The first programme was all about solidarity and resisting the arrival of a retail store but how about the uproar that Ozwald Boateng and Richard James etc caused when they first arrived? It will be interesting to see whether that is mentioned at any point. I can remember reading an article about Mr. Boateng organising a fashion show in the middle of the Row itself which was closed to traffic for the day. All of the tailors were invited to take part but, as I remember, none of the established houses did!
> 
> ...


It was interesting to see Boateng at the tailors' meeting at Gieves & Hawkes to discuss Abercrombie & Fitch. (BTW, he wore a Bamford & Sons coat when he sat next to me in Cecconi's a few weeks ago).

Kilgour still makes bespoke suits on the Row and in China but I am not a customer and cannot comment on the quality. I dislike the modern interior of the Kilgour, Boateng and main Richard James shops. Boateng's new shop is particularly garish IMO.

I would classify William Hunt as a fashion house too, especially as the firm is offering cheap RTW through stores such as John Lewis (my local branch stocks Boateng, Hunt and Chester Barrie's "Chester" brand).

It will be interesting to see whether Mark Marengo's shop on the Row will sell the same merchandise as his other shops or move upmarket. Marengo's quality seems to have dropped off as the firm has expanded.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

LondonFogey said:


> Why on earth does the Row need to be made more 'accessible and presentable'??? If people want a hip and happening clothing experience, they can go to every single High Street in the entire United Kingdom and get some trendy overpriced crap sold to them by a wispy haired teenager, or if they want bespoke they can go to one of the many off-row trendy tailors beloved of the New Labour and the rest of the modernising, tradition-hating champagne socialists that infest this country.
> 
> People go to the Row BECAUSE of its 'gentlemens' clubs stereotypes' (plus some little things called quality and tradition) because they can't get that anywhere else.
> 
> You might as well turn White's into a kebab shop!


I think you've misunderstood me here.
I'm not tradition-hating and I'm not advocating any tailors who are.
What you may or may not appreciate is that the traditionally austere stance that some S Row salesmen adopt prevents S Row tailors from gaining any new blood.

I regularly meet men (usually under 50 yrs old) who say that they don't go to Savile Row because the whole experience is too intimidating.
They see it as elitist and exclusive, like a gentleman's club that they can never be a member of.
They have plenty of money so that's not the issue but they don't like being looked at from down the nose of a snob if they don't happen to walk into a SR store wearing a bespoke 3-piece.

People like John Hitchcock et al who make remarks about turning customers away as if they were disease-ridden peasants do not help in this regard.
That programme milked all the old SR cliches for all their worth and in places underlined everything that is wrong with the inhabitants of the Row.

I'm told that over the next two episodes they'll be interviewing some of the other tailors and I hope that they come across a bit better.
I'm not saying that trendy clothes are good and old fashioned tailors are bad. If you believe that then you haven't read enough of my posts.

What I'm saying is that there are plenty of down to earth intelligent and highly skilled members of staff on the Row who work for both traditional and modern tailors who weren't interviewed.
These people would have made more interesting viewing and would've helped to attract new blood to the Row.
Don't forget that the older guys will die out eventually.

Oh, and I agree with whoever it was above who said that some of the questions were stupid.
Here's one example:
BBC: "Do people ever come in here with huge piles of cash?"
Norton: "Sometimes"

I mean what response were they hoping for there? "Yeah people come in every day and open up a black briefcase stuffed full of layers of cash - JUST like in the movies!" ic12337:


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

LondonFogey said:


> Why on earth does the Row need to be made more 'accessible and presentable'??? If people want a hip and happening clothing experience, they can go to every single High Street in the entire United Kingdom and get some trendy overpriced crap sold to them by a wispy haired teenager, or if they want bespoke they can go to one of the many off-row trendy tailors beloved of the New Labour and the rest of the modernising, tradition-hating champagne socialists that infest this country.
> 
> People go to the Row BECAUSE of its 'gentlemens' clubs stereotypes' (plus some little things called quality and tradition) because they can't get that anywhere else.
> 
> You might as well turn White's into a kebab shop!


Would you call Timothy Everest, who makes for Gordon Brown and David Cameron, a trendy tailor? "Modernising" Cameron is a member of Whites (as is George Osborne).


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

The downloaded programme can only be accessed via the iplayer programme. The player deletes the programme after a month. It will not be possible to email it so a Youtube posting or a DVD recording is the only way for our non-British colleagues to view it.


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## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> The downloaded programme can only be accessed via the iplayer programme. The player deletes the programme after a month. It will not be possible to email it so a Youtube posting or a DVD recording is the only way for our non-British colleagues to view it.


Darn, I tired accessing via torrent files but finally got lost in the multitude of registration pages, fee's to access etc etc.

Mychael


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## des merrion (Oct 1, 2006)

whistle_blower71 said:


> I cringed for forty minutes and then had to switch the thing off.
> Every tired cliche was recycled...all that BS about SR suits never wearing out or going out of fashion...and as for that suit A&S are making for Nick Foulkes!!
> Everyone came across as a bit smarmy.
> 
> *W_B*


Savile Row are my peers, but I also thought the programme was dissapointing.

I also agree about the A+s suit!

To my mind, the programme should have concentrated MUCH more on the craft of the Row instead of tons of free advertising for A+F.

A simple thing like the music chosen to run with the progrmme made the whole 1 hour seem like the death of SR was imminent.

www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

des merrion said:


> To my mind, the programme should have concentrated MUCH more on the craft of the Row instead of tons of free advertising for A+F.
> 
> A simple thing like the music chosen to run with the progrmme made the whole 1 hour seem like the death of SR was imminent.
> 
> www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com


I suspect it's not meant to be much about the craft as much as to pull people in or hold the viewers attention, however you want to put it, they want to create something that is 'fascinating' for what they perceive to be their potential audience, hence music and shots that they are attractive to the eye and a little gossip to spice the narrative.

It is interesting that they chose BBC Four for the first outing and not BBC Two, suggesting it's considered a niche programme and then not promoting it as much as other progs, like say Panorama or as 'The House' used to be, at the end of the news.

For all the criticism, it managed to convey a little insight into the issues that face The Row today, such as rents and newcomers and although the landlords were clearly business men, not artists or freedom fighters, there were grounds for a little optimism, not least because the estate wants to preserve the tailoring community, the customers they bring in and their own investment.

Will it sell a few more suits? God only really knows, but it may heighten a little awareness on the part of a public, who if they ever thought about The Row, at all, presumes it can never be for them, but these programmes and remember there another two to go, may just change that perception to something people can aspire to.


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## tricota (Dec 20, 2007)

mipcar said:


> Darn, I tired accessing via torrent files but finally got lost in the multitude of registration pages, fee's to access etc etc.
> 
> Mychael


https://www.uknova.com/wsgi/index as I mentioned earlier, only requires a simple registration.


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## morgan (Sep 24, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Do you get a family discount?


To be honest, I've never asked as he's not my sort of suit.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

I thought that Nick Foulkes was a loyal Huntsman customer so it was surprising to see him in A&S. Perhaps A&S gave him a freebie to plug the firm over its rivals. I was not keen on his trouser pleats but the suit looked okay but not stunning. 

The Henry Poole dinner suit did not thrill me either. The DJ on display in Poole's window recently looked great. The Bond references were so cliched, even for an Aston Martin designer. The new Aston looked ugly to my eyes.

Abercrombie & Filth came over as an over-priced and over-hyped brand. The message that I got was that Savile Row was superior and, in the long run, much better value.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> I thought that *Nick Foulkes* was a loyal Huntsman customer so it was surprising to see him in A&S. Perhaps A&S gave him a *freebie* to plug the firm over its rivals. I was not keen on his trouser pleats but the suit looked okay but not stunning.
> 
> The Henry Poole dinner suit did not thrill me either. The DJ on display in Poole's window recently looked great. The Bond references were so cliched, even for an Aston Martin designer. The new Aston looked ugly to my eyes.
> 
> Abercrombie & Filth came over as an over-priced and over-hyped brand. The message that I got was that Savile Row was superior and, in the long run, much better value.


Nick Foulkes...freebie? Never.:icon_smile_big:

*W_B*


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

It's a shame its not possible for a member to download it, open a folder on their HD made available to a P2P network, like Limewire, name the file/programme something unique and known to members only and allow them to download and play via the iplayer....
or something like that. Not possible because, as Bishop says, it would break the license conditions.


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## tricota (Dec 20, 2007)

Rossini said:


> It's a shame its not possible for a member to download it, open a folder on their HD made available to a P2P network, like Limewire, name the file/programme something unique and known to members only and allow them to download and play via the iplayer....
> or something like that. Not possible because, as Bishop says, it would break the license conditions.


But what is the problem using torrents?


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## super k (Feb 12, 2004)

I tried https://www.uknova.com/wsgi/index but it was not allowing new users


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Yes, I think a few people have encountered that unfortunately.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

Couldn't somebody use a screen capture app to grab it whilst its playing ?


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## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

tricota said:


> https://www.uknova.com/wsgi/index as I mentioned earlier, only requires a simple registration.


Tried it, keep getting a message saying "user limit for this site has been reached".

Mychael


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

Bertie Wooster said:


> Couldn't somebody use a screen capture app to grab it whilst its playing ?


Is that called a video recorder ?:icon_smile:

I admit to not knowing how it's done, but (a hypothetical case obviously! ! ! ) if someone here in the in Uk down loads to a PC, creating a file of some type with funny letters the way they do, mtpog mpic etc is that not then email-able ? or do we then have compatibility and bandwidth issues, like it takes eighteen hours to upload an email with an attachment ? only for the recipient unable to open it.

Because;

I remember in 1997 when a film was being finished at Pinewood, the music sound track was rejected by the producers' investors at the last minute and the Australian director had some tracks emailed overnight to Pinewood from Australia, the quality was thought good enough to used.

I understand that a forum member _may_ be breaking the law if they privately emailed an overseas member with a copy, who might pass it on and I would not encourage or condone anything like that, never, absolutely never.

Therefore;

The same copyright/unauthorised possesion rules apply if a video is popped in the post, I presume because of the danger that a recipient might duplicate the recording and distribute it others in his own country,

Though I do wonder if there is not a personal use 'allowance' or mitigation of some sort in the law?
Anyone know?


----------



## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

Well don't panic, just yet. I think I have it nutted out. At least so far as I now have a Torrent player installed and it's downloading "something" called Saville Row.
The proof will be in the playing.

Mychael


----------



## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

It WORKS. Woohoo.. :icon_smile_big:

Mychael


----------



## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

Took an hour to download. For me it was a great viewing. Don't forget that for the vast majority of Aussies England is a very long way away and a lot of us (hopefully not me) will only ever get snapshots of it from shows like this.

I would have liked more time taken for shop "tours" but I especially enjoyed the part about the Harris Tweed, having a genuine jacket myself.

It was also pleasing to see that many of the tailors are (in relative terms) young men so I don't think there is a risk of the craft dying out from attrition.

Hopefully I can now watch "Ready to Wear".

Mychael


----------



## tricota (Dec 20, 2007)

mipcar said:


> Tried it, keep getting a message saying "user limit for this site has been reached".
> 
> Mychael


Ah, sorry I forgot about that. They sometimes have it, but if you try again in a few days, or perhaps at odd hours, suddenly it will happen. I know this sounds like a lot to do, only to register to a site, but trust me; if you are a fan of British television is is definitely worth it....


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hi,
Just a thought but given that the programme said that over 70% of Savile Row customers were from abroad and the US in particular, has anyone actually contacted BBC Worldwide to see whether the programme will be shown in other countries? Perhaps you could use that statistic to make a case for it being shown in the US, Japan and Australia etc.

Chris.


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## tazmaniac (Apr 27, 2007)

the torrent is also available on www.thebox.bz, which also has limited registration numbers, but after a few reloads, I managed to open an account.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> I thought that Nick Foulkes was a loyal Huntsman customer so it was surprising to see him in A&S. Perhaps A&S gave him a freebie to plug the firm over its rivals. I was not keen on his trouser pleats but the suit looked okay but not stunning.


Foulkes is something of a Savile Row slag and has suits from most tailors on that side of the street.



chrstc said:


> Hi,
> Just a thought but given that the programme said that over 70% of Savile Row customers were from abroad and the US in particular, has anyone actually contacted BBC Worldwide to see whether the programme will be shown in other countries? Perhaps you could use that statistic to make a case for it being shown in the US, Japan and Australia etc.
> 
> Chris.


Good point.


----------



## mipcar (Dec 12, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hi,
> Just a thought but given that the programme said that over 70% of Savile Row customers were from abroad and the US in particular, has anyone actually contacted BBC Worldwide to see whether the programme will be shown in other countries? Perhaps you could use that statistic to make a case for it being shown in the US, Japan and Australia etc.
> 
> Chris.


Way ahead of you. Rang around today. No knowledge of the show coming here.

Mychael


----------



## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

*Just out of interest.*



mipcar said:


> It WORKS. Woohoo.. :icon_smile_big:
> 
> Mychael


Can it be emailed ?

F.


----------



## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,
For those who haven't seen a TV guide yet, here's the synopsis for part 2. By the way, did anyone else notice that the "coming next" segment just before the programme spelt Savile with 2 Ls? I wonder if they will have fixed the gremlins before this episode!

Chris.

*Savile Row
*2/3. The tailors hit the road with a touring exhibition stopping in Florence, taking centre stage at the world's biggest menswear expo, while Savile Row's oldest company explore the Chinese market.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Watched the repeat tonight on BBC4. It was very well made. Fantastic insight and good timing. I would have liked to have seen more of the black and white (60s?) interview where the tailor was asked to explain why his suit was worth just over £100...

I agree that Nick Foulkes suit wasn't great. It seemed like the Tailor was under pressure to pander to the camera.

The man from Abercrombie & Fitch was happily able to b.s. because he's already achieved his marketing aim. I can't help feeling that the floodgates have opened. Perhaps in 100 years, "saville row" will exist as a virtual community.

I hope the next two programmes are as good.


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## upnorth (Jun 18, 2007)

Someone should upload the first episode on a more ubiquitous torrent site like pirate bay. 

BTW, Is the next episode about Henry Poole?


----------



## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

*The Next Episode...*

I think the next episode covers the "London Cut" exhibition in Florence.
This is where A&S (who do not need to advertise) had a stand at a trade fair. FWIW, A&S (who do not need to advertise) are founding members of the Savile Row Bespoke Association.

*W_B*


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

LondonFogey said:


> As for the CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch, I'd love to know who his surgeon is. He had the 'sixteen going on sixty-five' look down to a tee...


A kind of cross between Gary Busey and a manic troglodyte?


----------



## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

upnorth said:


> BTW, Is the next episode about Henry Poole?


Hello,
Yes I believe it is Henry Poole being referenced in the synopsis.

Thomas Mahon has given his take on the programme in the latest entry in the blog over at the English Cut

Enjoy.

Chris.


----------



## super k (Feb 12, 2004)

part 1 is here:


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

For those UK members that saw part 2 this evening...how was it?


----------



## jojo (Mar 28, 2007)

super k said:


> part 1 is here:


The full programme is an hour. Thats only 33mins of it.


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## super k (Feb 12, 2004)

here in the states, we have to take what we can get


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

whnay. said:


> For those UK members that saw part 2 this evening...how was it?


Have you seen the original version of The Office?

Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".

:crazy:


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## Zingari (Jul 9, 2007)

Rossini said:


> Have you seen the original version of The Office?
> 
> Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".
> 
> :crazy:


I think Henry Poole going to China cheapens the brand and is a mistake. But if there is other financial alternative...........


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

whnay. said:


> For those UK members that saw part 2 this evening...how was it?


More of the same really, the programmes are not an essay about the differing styles from each of 'the houses' it's a gossipy fly on the wall and a great deal of focus on who's "in" and who's "out".

They did follow the Henry Poole reps' trip to China, the kindest I can say about his trip is than he was on a par with Prince Phillip, from a diplomacy point of view.

The preceding programmes, "Ready to Wear" a sort of history of clothing since the war were a lot more amusing, in a life affirming kind of way.


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## Winot (Oct 12, 2006)

Rossini said:


> Have you seen the original version of The Office?
> 
> Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".
> 
> :crazy:


My thoughts exactly. Equally cringeworthy without being funny.

There was a lot about Ravi Tailor moving out from the premises he shared with Evisu and consequently being booted out of the Savile Row Bespoke Association. But he's still shown on their website at his new address:

Me no understand - anyone got any ideas?


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## Armchair (Nov 12, 2006)

Rossini said:


> Have you seen the original version of The Office?
> 
> Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".
> 
> :crazy:


He was rather crass. Although the second Henry Poole shop was little more than a kiosk.


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## Infrasonic (May 18, 2007)

*Part 1 uploaded here*

https://www.nedline.nl/cgi-bin/track/click.cgi?id=1


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Rossini said:


> Have you seen the original version of The Office?
> 
> Well, a good part of the programme was devoted to, if you can imagine it, "David Brent goes to China".
> 
> :crazy:


Now that you mention it, he did have the David Brent beard and he was a bit chubby. The orange shirt and white tie combination was something DB might wear as well.

I was surprised to see he had tattoos though !

He did not have the nonsense business-speak of Mr. Brent, but he was an insensitive type.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Winot said:


> My thoughts exactly. Equally cringeworthy without being funny.
> 
> There was a lot about Ravi Tailor moving out from the premises he shared with Evisu and consequently being booted out of the Savile Row Bespoke Association. But he's still shown on their website at his new address:
> 
> Me no understand - anyone got any ideas?


Hello,
I was thinking exactly the same thing myself! Odd...! Also, shouldn't this mean that Evisu should now be out of the organisation as their "bespoke tailoring" was done by AJ Hewitt.

I have to admit that last night's episode left me feeling a little sad. It seems to me that in a profession where craftsmanship is everything and skilled workers are so hard to find that creating an elite within an elite (ie the Savile Row Bespoke organisation) isn't a particularly good idea. An organisation to protect the history of the Row is a great idea but I think all of the tailoring houses with a Savile Row or similar history within a mile or so of the Row should be included on some level (even if only as friends and supporters). The 50 or 100 yard stipulation will probably have to be overturned in time as rents continue to rise, just like the 3 mile residency requirements at Cambridge were.

By the way, did anyone else notice that one of the main figures in the Hanloon tailoring empire, representing Henry Poole, spent the whole time wearing the Denman and Goddard house tie? I'm not normally that observant but that is such a beautiful and distinctive design that it really stands out!

Chris.


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## Winot (Oct 12, 2006)

chrstc said:


> I have to admit that last night's episode left me feeling a little sad. It seems to me that in a profession where craftsmanship is everything and skilled workers are so hard to find that creating an elite within an elite (ie the Savile Row Bespoke organisation) isn't a particularly good idea. An organisation to protect the history of the Row is a great idea but I think all of the tailoring houses with a Savile Row or similar history within a mile or so of the Row should be included on some level (even if only as friends and supporters). The 50 or 100 yard stipulation will probably have to be overturned in time as rents continue to rise, just like the 3 mile residency requirements at Cambridge were.


Yes I think it's a mistake and actually underlines the fact that the "Savile Row" brand as they define it is meaningless. It's *not* the same thing as Champagne in which most agree that the location in which the grapes are grown influences the taste of the final product. Moving a good bespoke tailor 110 yards down the street does not diminish the quality of his/her product.


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## Miles (Feb 9, 2008)

I've recorded parts one and two on my computer, any idea what's the best way to share them?


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

The themes as you might have gathered from the above were:

Henry Poole goes to China - an example of how not to franchise a brand and how to devalue its currency. The concession in Hanloon was no better than the one I saw in Tokyo. If you are going to franchise you need to have strong control over the brand. I would have walked out of the contract there and then. The evasion and lunching were symptomatic of how the European is treated in business in China we have a company there so I know. Poor Mr "Brent" was out of his depth.
The sooner Mr Cundy senior retires the better for the rest of the family and the company, I do not know the quality of the next generation but although a nice old buffer he was in another world. 

Savile Row Bespoke - should Sexton and Tailor be allowed in. I have some sympathy with the association. If you allow tailors in outside your rules where do you stop. They must find some rules that are workable and stick to them. I would say you have to be on the Row. Having said that I do not think Sexton et all loose out much by not belonging and presumably will not have to pay the fees.

Florence - This part was a little disjointed but seemed to show the tailors working together. There seemed to be the exhibition at the palace and stands at the clothes show. 
The exhibition looked fine. But I really think Savile Row tailors attending clothes shows are wasting their time. Their customers are not there. Spend the money on better websites and good PR. 
The search through the old ledger books was an interesting example of how companies who pay stiff rents have not yet had the sense to clear out their old archives to somewhere where they have no rent. I am sure one of the Cundy family and the others must have some space in a barn or basement where this stuff could go, again Grant came across well in this area.


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## upnorth (Jun 18, 2007)

This is truly a fantastic series. I would also be writing to BBC to suggest that they produce a documentary to showcase the tailoring traditions in Naples. I hope they are open to feedbacks and suggestions.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

culverwood said:


> Savile Row Bespoke - should Sexton and Tailor be allowed in. I have some sympathy with the association. If you allow tailors in outside your rules where do you stop. They must find some rules that are workable and stick to them. I would say you have to be on the Row. Having said that I do not think Sexton et all loose out much by not belonging and presumably will not have to pay the fees.


Hello,
Again I think people need to remember that almost all of the Row tailors have plied their trade somewhere outside of the street at some point in their history. Imagine if the association had been set up in the 60s. Poole (who want the most stringent regulations on this matter it seems) would not have qualified for membership as they were in Cork Street. Even now I would imagine that Anderson and Sheppard only qualify on something of a technicality as their store would certainly be more than 100 yards from the centre of the row in terms of walking distance. I am just suggesting that since the bespoke community in London is such a small one anyway that it would make sense to create another organisation that looks after the interests of bespoke English craftsmanship as a whole, possibly including the shoemakers, shirtmakers etc etc too.

Finally on the topic of Mr. Cundey I believe that you will find that it was actually his son who suggested the franchising idea and that he was not sure about it at all. I will have to re-read the relevant sections in the Poole Founders of Savile Row book but I'm fairly sure that is what is said on the topic.

Thanks,
Chris.


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

Having missed last week's episode, I'd looked forward to this week's, but found it quite disappointing. It lacked cohesion and, as others have pointed out, the whole thing seems to be a missed opportunity, given the level of access to Row figures.

Too much time was wasted on toe-curling nonentities such as the fashion journalist 'interviewing' Angus Cundey - she clearly hadn't heard of Henry Poole and was openly bored and uninterested (AC: There's an interesting story behind that - would you like to hear it? Fashion hack: No, just give me a one-line version. )

The Henry Poole representative in Beijing was a supernaturally unappealing character - he managed to be so unengaging that he didn't even make for good 'car-crash' TV. His manners (albeit in the face of extreme provocation from his hosts, who seemed to be on their mobiles constantly, even when shovelling their food in) were abysmal, and the David Brent comparisons are quite proper. 

I'd tuned in in the hope of seeing some top-notch clothes 'in action', but was largely disappointed. David Brent looked dreadful in China, I thought - horrible orange shirt and white tie, put together with a very ordinary-looking suit (to my eye, at least) that appeared to be, well, black.

And there was Edward Sexton's partner/assistant/companion. That hair! Those shoes! The horror! (Thought Marie Helvin's three-piece was fabulous, though.)

Overall, the programme had the feel of one of those sleepy 'a day in the life of' things they do at airports/zoos/housing associations: "Back in Mayfair, Jim's expecting an important phone call, and Sally's patience is wearing thin." The part where the 'Savile Row savant' (?) went looking for the old order books should have been interesting, but was badly paced and lacked focus, so it was easily the dullest part of the whole (long) hour.

Shame. Still, I'll be back next week.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

ashie259 said:


> And there was Edward Sexton's partner/assistant/companion. That hair! Those shoes! The horror! (Thought Marie Helvin's three-piece was fabulous, though.)


Unfair I know but whilst watching that segment I couldn't help wondering to myself whether Marie Helvin or the A&F CEO from the last episode had had more cosmetic surgery!:icon_smile:

Chris.


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## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

It struck me that the enforcement of a geographical rule for the Savile Row association was deeply flawed. As they pointed out in the last episode, most of the traditional crafts and trades have moved out of their old London haunts - eg, there are no journalists in Fleet Street anymore and no greengrocers in Covent Garden. I work for a professional body and to us, the important thing is the enforcement of standards in training and conduct, not where you are based. 

We are also developing links with China so it's possible I'll be in the 'David Brent' scenario later this year. I did have to laugh when he was showing the shop assistant pictures of British icons and trying to explain what they were. ('Union Jack'. 'Ahhh...Yungyonga Jackah...?' 'Last Night of the Proms'....'ahhh...promusa?' 'Never mind, just lots of mad English people...')

I also had to chuckle at the Italian 'designer' who did absolutely b*gger all for the Savile Row stand at the show and even got the name wrong on the labels! 

Also, is it me, or is the sound quality appalling? The interviews sound like they were done with the same tape recorder they used on Nixon.


----------



## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

LondonFogey said:


> Also, is it me, or is the sound quality appalling? The interviews sound like they were done with the same tape recorder they used on Nixon.


I found that as well. I'd turn the sound right up to catch what they were saying, then Paul McGann's voiceover would come back in and nearly blow out my windows.

Same went for the picture quality. Some segments were so grainy that I was on the point of checking that my Freeview box was plugged in correctly.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

culverwood said:


> Savile Row Bespoke - should Sexton and Tailor be allowed in. I have some sympathy with the association. If you allow tailors in outside your rules where do you stop. They must find some rules that are workable and stick to them. I would say you have to be on the Row. Having said that I do not think Sexton et all loose out much by not belonging and presumably will not have to pay the fees.


The SRA should use quality, rather than geographical location, for its qualification. There are several tailors who trained on the Row who now cut and in other parts of the country. Typical examples are those who use Scabal's premises at number 12, e.g. Thomas Mahon. Josh Byrne, who posts here and trained at Henry Poole, should also be eligible.


----------



## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> The SRA should use quality, rather than geographical location, for its qualification. There are several tailors who trained on the Row who now cut and in other parts of the country. Typical examples are those who use Scabal's premises at number 12, e.g. Thomas Mahon. Josh Byrne, who posts here and trained at Henry Poole, should also be eligible.


Totally agree with you and the others who've said that.
To me it's about the quality and cut of the garment and the expertise behind it.
If the cutter is Savile Row trained and the coatmakers etc. are either based on or near the Row or trained extensively on the Row then for the most part that is a high quality SR garment, as long as it is cut in the SR silhouette.

Doesn't matter if the premises aren't on the Row or even in London imo (should be in UK).
As long as the garment is thoroughly checked and meets all the requirements it can be said to be a SR suit.
What about the tailors who don't have premises at all but use coatmakers who make suits on the Row?

I wonder if there's a danger that if the rules are too stringent someone else could set up a rival association and call it 'Savile Row Construction Hallmark' or similar....?


----------



## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

I also liked the little reference to the narrator in the use of the incidental music from 'Withnail and I' (the sort of tootly steam organ music) at several points in the programme.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> The SRA should use quality, rather than geographical location, for its qualification. There are several tailors who trained on the Row who now cut and in other parts of the country.


Yes, as others have pointed out, the parallels with Champagne are not exact and I agree that quality is a better measure. Getting training on the Row is a good criterion, for a start. I think it's perfectly fine to be a member of the "Savile Row Association" on that basis. It might apply to tailors rather than entire firms - there would need to be constant review if XYZ tailors in another location had a varying proportion of its capability trained at the Row. They also need to be careful how that membership is reflected in where they say their clothes are actually from. I know it's a slightly different question but is there a suggestion that a tailor who trained in Savile Row, and was there for 5,10,15 years to start a business elsewhere could use the "Savile Row" designation on their clothes? Would this make any sense? Unfortunately, what makes it "Savile Row" from that perspective is the location. Sub-designations of the "Savile Row" label using distinctions between off/on/bespoke/etc. have the potential to dilute the brand.The guys that aren't on the Row but trained there can mention that in their marketing materials - just as long as it doesn't start appearing on the clothing label I think it would all be quite reasonable.



ashie259 said:


> Having missed last week's episode, I'd looked forward to this week's, but found it quite disappointing. It lacked cohesion and, as others have pointed out, the whole thing seems to be a missed opportunity, given the level of access to Row figures.
> 
> (Thought Marie Helvin's three-piece was fabulous, though.)


Episode 1 was better. You're right about Marie Helvin's three piece, too.


----------



## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

LondonFogey said:


> I also liked the little reference to the narrator in the use of the incidental music from 'Withnail and I' (the sort of tootly steam organ music) at several points in the programme.


Good spot! I missed that, and should have picked up on it, having just come back from a slightly Withnailesque week in a cottage in the Lake District ("I've come on holiday by mistake, causing me to miss episode one!").


----------



## aflamini (Apr 25, 2007)

I think the Henry Poole guy in China must be wearing a chinese made suit. The cut was just so bad that it couldn't be cut by a London cutter.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

aflamini said:


> I think the Henry Poole guy in China must be wearing a chinese made suit. The cut was just so bad that it couldn't be cut by a London cutter.


A suit cut and tailored in China, for Kilgour or Poole, should not be called a Savile Row suit. The SRA members who offer Chinese made garments are IMHO actually undermining the value of their association and reputation of the Row. After all, the SRA would not admit WW Chan as a member.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> A suit cut and tailored in China, for Kilgour or Poole, should not be called a Savile Row suit. The SRA members who offer Chinese made garments are IMHO actually undermining the value of their association and reputation of the Row. After all, the SRA would not admit WW Chan as a member.


Agreed, of course. But it's a suit made by a member of the "Savile Row Association". So does this mean that they can put "Made by Poole, Savile Row Association" but not "Made by Poole, Savile Row" for the chinese-made suit?

Could any other non-Savile Row tailor who, on a quality basis (assuming this was now allowed), was admitted to the "SRA" use the same label on their garments. Would this be confusing? What _should_ happen in this scenario?!


----------



## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Grr. Missed it. Though by the sounds of it, that may be a blessing.

Will try to catch the rerun.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Holdfast said:


> Grr. Missed it. Though by the sounds of it, that may be a blessing.
> 
> Will try to catch the rerun.


You should be able to watch it on the BBC iplayer site - .


----------



## Miles (Feb 9, 2008)

Miles said:


> I've recorded parts one and two on my computer, any idea what's the best way to share them?


If anyone in America wants to watch these, I've created torrents for them here:

Part 1:

Part 2:

I'll leaving it seeding for a day or so.


----------



## upnorth (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks for the upload, Miles. You are a national hero.


----------



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

chrstc said:


> Finally on the topic of Mr. Cundey I believe that you will find that it was actually his son who suggested the franchising idea and that he was not sure about it at all. I will have to re-read the relevant sections in the Poole Founders of Savile Row book but I'm fairly sure that is what is said on the topic.
> Thanks,
> Chris.


I am sorry that I got the wrong end of the stick but that's what you get from believing what they say on TV. The program set up the old Mr Cundy to be the master of branding.


----------



## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

BTW, did anyone else spot several pairs of pink Crocs being worn in Florence?  Is nowhere safe from the plastic monstrosities?


----------



## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> BTW, did anyone else spot several pairs of pink Crocs being worn in Florence?  Is nowhere safe from the plastic monstrosities?


Hi,
Maybe the A&F CEO can wear a pair when he goes to his next fitting at Norton!!

Chris.


----------



## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hi,
> Maybe the A&F CEO can wear a pair when he goes to his next fitting at Norton!!
> 
> Chris.


On his head.


----------



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

Thomas Mahon has updated his blog and is no more impressed than the rest of us with episode 2.
Steven Hitchcock has updated his too and has a few things to say.
https://savilerow.blogs.com/the_savile_row_blog_spons/


----------



## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Having now seen part 2 of the series on the web I must say I agree with the others here who have pointed out the 'David Brent' similarities.
It was disappointing to me that so much of an hour long program was spent focussing on Mr Ward's dietary difficulties and the communication breakdowns between him and the Chinese.

Any viewer who switched on thinking they might learn something about the Row would've been disappointed by having to watch Ward shave and make ignorant remarks about the Chinese.
What the hell has that got to do with the Row?

It was surprising that Poole had allowed the Chinese to open a shop on their behalf having organised it by e mail.
Surely something as important as opening a new shop requires the MD to go out there and stay for several weeks overseeing the whole process until the end.
No wonder they got it so wrong.

Once again in this episode the producers sense of what makes 'good telly' took priority over everything else and it jumped around all over the place between the dull and the meaningless.

The part at the end about Ravi Tailor and Ed Sexton being prohibited from the SRBA just made me feel sorry for them. It's just plain wrong imo.
As Steven Hitchcock pointed out on his site Mark Henderson's first job in clothing is his current one and why should someone who has never even touched a pair of shears decide who gets the official 'seal of approval'?

As I said before someone should really start a rival group and communicate to the public louder than the SRBA does. That way the right people would be included.
I can either see that happening or the SRBA just becomes a club for the old guard of the Row and means nothing to the public.
Would Ravi Tailors clients all go elsewhere in disgust when they find out he's not in the SRBA anymore? Of course not.
I really can't see any member of the public walking down the Row or surfing the net in search of a quality tailor and omitting anyone who isn't mentioned on the SRBA web site.

I think that Henderson and the board of the SRBA have lost sight of what it is they're trying to protect in the first place.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the whole point of this thing is to prevent the public from being hoodwinked by charlatans who claim to sell SR suits when they don't, or claim to sell bespoke suits when they don't.
I certainly wouldn't call Ravi or Sexton charlatans and both of them have the right to advertise that they sell SR bespoke suits imo.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> You should be able to watch it on the BBC iplayer site - .


Thank you! Will watch it tonight.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,
I was just wondering whether anyone could find a copy of that group shot of all the SRBA tailors from the end of the second episode and upload it here along with names and annotations. That is one of the things that has really infuriated me about the programme- there has been very little information about who is on screen at the time and no screen titles etc. For example who is the chap with the slicked back black hair who has featured (briefly) in both episdoes so far? He was quoted as saying "Not very Savile row is it?" whilst looking at the A&F store being finished in the first episode and he was the first to say that the exhibition in Florence looked "absolutely fantastic" in the second.

I'd just like to put some names to faces and work out exactly who's who in the Row.

Thanks very much,
Chris.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

chrstc said:


> I was just wondering whether anyone could find a copy of that group shot of all the SRBA tailors from the end of the second episode and upload it here along with names and annotations.


I can't provide the photograph, but I recognized it as being from the weekend FT magazine.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,
OK, thanks very much. I had assumed that it was a publicity shot for the SRBA website but I can't find it on there.

Thanks again,
Chris.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> I was just wondering whether anyone could find a copy of that group shot of all the SRBA tailors from the end of the second episode and upload it here along with names and annotations. That is one of the things that has really infuriated me about the programme- there has been very little information about who is on screen at the time and no screen titles etc. For example who is the chap with the slicked back black hair who has featured (briefly) in both episdoes so far? He was quoted as saying "Not very Savile row is it?" whilst looking at the A&F store being finished in the first episode and he was the first to say that the exhibition in Florence looked "absolutely fantastic" in the second.
> 
> I'd just like to put some names to faces and work out exactly who's who in the Row.
> ...


The man with the slicked back hair works at A&S, sorry but I don't recall his name.

I thought his pinstripe suit that he wears at the end of episode 1 was amazing.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

whnay. said:


> The man with the slicked back hair works at A&S, sorry but I don't recall his name.
> 
> I thought his pinstripe suit that he wears at the end of episode 1 was amazing.


Hello,
Thank you very much for your help. I am learning a little more about the Row and its tailors every day thanks to good people like yourself.

Chris.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> I was just wondering whether anyone could find a copy of that group shot of all the SRBA tailors from the end of the second episode and upload it here along with names and annotations. That is one of the things that has really infuriated me about the programme- there has been very little information about who is on screen at the time and no screen titles etc. For example who is the chap with the slicked back black hair who has featured (briefly) in both episdoes so far? He was quoted as saying "Not very Savile row is it?" whilst looking at the A&F store being finished in the first episode and he was the first to say that the exhibition in Florence looked "absolutely fantastic" in the second.
> 
> I'd just like to put some names to faces and work out exactly who's who in the Row.
> ...


As has been said he works at A&S and his name is Carl.
I agree that there were not nearly enough titles on the page, and occasionally Alan Bennett appeared on screen yet no-one seems to have interviewed him which I think was a shame as he's seen it all.


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

Holdfast said:


> Thank you! Will watch it tonight.


Done. I had to force myself to finish watching.

I felt embarrassed for the UK, let alone Savile Row.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Bonhamesque said:


> Any viewer who switched on thinking they might learn something about the Row would've been disappointed by having to watch Ward shave and make ignorant remarks about the Chinese.
> What the hell has that got to do with the Row?


I think it got everything to do with the row, it's sheer desperation, for such an august company to enter such a hair-brained licensing deal.

Poole will never get their untarnished name back. "Fake-Poole" will weigh them down.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

bengal-stripe said:


> I think it got everything to do with the row, it's sheer desperation, for such an august company to enter such a hair-brained licensing deal.
> 
> Poole will never get their untarnished name back. "Fake-Poole" will weigh them down.


I agree that it was worth following him to China and explaining to the viewer what was going on. My point was that there didn't need to be anywhere near enough time devoted to it.
They could've made that point far more concisely.

For example the programme wasted a lot of time pointing out how many times a day he had to eat food that he didn't particularly like.
They also showed him making a speech to a bunch of uninterested students, some of whom were falling asleep.
None of this had anything to do with desperation it was just bad organisation on the part of the Chinese.

What can the viewer learn about the Row from those scenes? Not a lot imo.


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

Bonhamesque said:


> Having now seen part 2 of the series on the web I must say I agree with the others here who have pointed out the 'David Brent' similarities.


Not just David Brent, but Ricky Gervais in general. In fact, whenever the Chinese produced another dish or 'suggested' another speaking engagement, I felt sure Ward was going to say to camera: "You're havin' a rarf!"


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

so funny. The legend grows. I can see a spin-off series in the making.


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## Ray (Jan 12, 2005)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> I was just wondering whether anyone could find a copy of that group shot of all the SRBA tailors from the end of the second episode and upload it here along with names and annotations. That is one of the things that has really infuriated me about the programme- there has been very little information about who is on screen at the time and no screen titles etc. For example who is the chap with the slicked back black hair who has featured (briefly) in both episdoes so far? He was quoted as saying "Not very Savile row is it?" whilst looking at the A&F store being finished in the first episode and he was the first to say that the exhibition in Florence looked "absolutely fantastic" in the second.
> 
> I'd just like to put some names to faces and work out exactly who's who in the Row.
> ...


His name is Karl, and you can see his profile with several elegant suited photo's on MySpace.com under the name of Mr.M


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Ray said:


> His name is Karl, and you can see his profile with several elegant suited photo's on MySpace.com under the name of Mr.M


Hello,
Thanks very much. With all the replies about this one gentleman I'm beginning to feel like some sort of cyber stalker!

If anyone does have that photo from the FT and could annotate it telling me who was who and what firms they work for I'd be grateful. I recognised people such as William Skinner, John Hitchcock, Simon and Angus Cundey, Ozwald Boateng, Richard Anderson etc but didn't recognise the aforementioned gent, the two female tailors and many others.

Thanks again,
Chris.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> Thanks very much. With all the replies about this one gentleman I'm beginning to feel like some sort of cyber stalker!
> 
> If anyone does have that photo from the FT and could annotate it telling me who was who and what firms they work for I'd be grateful. I recognised people such as William Skinner, John Hitchcock, Simon and Angus Cundey, Ozwald Boateng, Richard Anderson etc but didn't recognise the aforementioned gent, the two female tailors and many others.
> ...


You could try looking on this page as there are photos on here:


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Bonhamesque said:


> You could try looking on this page as there are photos on here:


Hello,
Thanks very much for the link. I had already seen that page and that is one of the reasons that I was able to recognise those that I did. I was more interested in the staff at some of the houses without websites such as Chittleborough and Morgan and Welsh and Jeffries (not a fully functioning website in their case).

Thanks again
Chris.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

ashie259 said:


> Not just David Brent, but Ricky Gervais in general. In fact, whenever the Chinese produced another dish or 'suggested' another speaking engagement, I felt sure Ward was going to say to camera: "You're havin' a rarf!"


Hello,
Just found this on the Norton and Sons website (in the news section):

WELCOME BACK 
Head Cutter Mr David Ward is back where his Savile Row career began after spells at Timothy Everest and more recently as Senior Cutter at our neighbour Henry Poole.

Interesting eh?!

Chris.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> Just found this on the Norton and Sons website (in the news section):
> 
> WELCOME BACK
> ...


How bizarre?!
Maybe Poole's sacked him for embarassing the firm...? :devil:


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> Just found this on the Norton and Sons website (in the news section):
> 
> WELCOME BACK
> ...


So what's happened to John Kent?

And why was a cutter managing Poole's brand in China?


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> So what's happened to John Kent?
> 
> And why was a cutter managing Poole's brand in China?


It's a good question, and many have asked why Simon Cundey didn't go out there instead...


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Bonhamesque said:


> It's a good question, and many have asked why Simon Cundey didn't go out there instead...


Hello,
Well I think the point was that they wanted someone to go out and train the Hanloon cutters so that they could produce something that was at least partially worthy of the Poole name. It wasn't just a case of checking the shops etc. The tailors had to be shown how to work the "Savile Row way".
The Norton site says that John Kent and Stephen Lachter are both still there, though. Odd!

Chris.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Perhaps Kent and Lachter will have sittings and Ward will be the Norton head cutter. 

My wife watched the second programme when it was repeated on BBC2 and I was out at the pub. Her main comment was that Ward was a plonker and she could not understand how he was employed by a prestigious firm like Henry Poole.


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

whnay. said:


> The man with the slicked back hair works at A&S, sorry but I don't recall his name.
> 
> I thought his pinstripe suit that he wears at the end of episode 1 was amazing.


The same chap also wore a superb brown tweed jacket in Florence, to me easily the best dressed man there. Was that the famous Breanish tweed. I think A&S may have had that in their window a while back.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,
The final part of the series concentrates on the drive for new customers and the apprenticeship schemes in place on the Row apparently. It should make interesting viewing again. BBC4 9pm as before.

Chris.


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## Scoiatilo (Jan 19, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> Well I think the point was that they wanted someone to go out and train the Hanloon cutters so that they could produce something that was at least partially worthy of the Poole name. It wasn't just a case of checking the shops etc. The tailors had to be shown how to work the "Savile Row way".
> The Norton site says that John Kent and Stephen Lachter are both still there, though. Odd!
> 
> Chris.


Both John Kent and Stephen Lachter are still at Norton's but sadly John has been unwell and off work since October of last year. Everyone there is hoping that he will return but no news as yet.


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## Scoiatilo (Jan 19, 2007)

*Not the point*

The last fifty or so comments on this thread contain some pretty saddening stuff which I hope David Ward never reads. 

David is an extremely talented young Cutter and moreover is extremely well regarded and well liked at every firm for which he has worked. Sadly he has been made to look a bit of an ass by the documentary makers. As we see very briefly, he was in China to assist in the training of the local cutters, something for which he is entirely qualified. For everything else that the programme shows him doing he seemed unprepared or just out of his depth. He is an extremely charming man but he is no professional Diplomat, nor is he a Brand Manager. David has spent his last fifteen years at the board and in the fitting room doing what we should all hope our cutters are doing and that is perfecting the art of cutting.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Scoiatilo said:


> The last fifty or so comments on this thread contain some pretty saddening stuff which I hope David Ward never reads.
> 
> David is an extremely talented young Cutter and moreover is extremely well regarded and well liked at every firm for which he has worked. Sadly he has been made to look a bit of an ass by the documentary makers. As we see very briefly, he was in China to assist in the training of the local cutters, something for which he is entirely qualified. For everything else that the programme shows him doing he seemed unprepared or just out of his depth. He is an extremely charming man but he is no professional Diplomat, nor is he a Brand Manager. David has spent his last fifteen years at the board and in the fitting room doing what we should all hope our cutters are doing and that is perfecting the art of cutting.


That is a very fair comment. The BBC's editing has been very poor. Mr Ward has been the main victim and also seems to have suffered at the hands of his disingenuous oriental colleagues. We should wish him well in his new position.

I would question the decision of Poole's management to send Mr Ward out to China alone with a film crew. He should have had a marketing or PR adviser with him. James Sherwood, who rescued the Florence show from the Italian designer's idiotic plans, demonstrated the value of having a capable PR on board. I hope that Angus Cundey learned a valuable lesson.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Scoiatilo said:


> Both John Kent and Stephen Lachter are still at Norton's but sadly John has been unwell and off work since October of last year. Everyone there is hoping that he will return but no news as yet.


I have heard that news in a PM from a well-informed member. Mr Ward has replaced another cutter who has gone back to Huntsman. I wish Mr Kent a speedy recovery.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

Part 3: a surprising ( and most welcome ), upbeat tone to this episode.
With regards Sedwell / SRB it is a shame that there seems such a deeply entrenched clique mentality between the houses even in the face of difficult circumstances. 
Still, no matter who is training which apprentice, at least there are apprentices to train.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

I thought the narration was slightly more lampooning in tone on occasion. I'm also not sure what the direction or point of this episode was really. Ok, the apprentice angle was valid and in general it was interesting but it didn't seem to cover enough new ground. Enjoyable all the same.


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## Miles (Feb 9, 2008)

If anyone outside the UK is interested in watching the final episode, I've uploaded it here:



It's much better than the second episode and certainly more upbeat!


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Miles said:


> If anyone outside the UK is interested in watching the final episode, I've uploaded it here:
> 
> It's much better than the second episode and certainly more upbeat!


It's repeated around midnight on BBC4.


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

I am surprised about the lack of input from Kilgour, one of the largest and respected houses, who still do full bespoke service. They also have a long and famous history.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

archduke said:


> I am surprised about the lack of input from Kilgour, one of the largest and respected houses, who still do full bespoke service. They also have a long and famous history.


Ditto Huntsman.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Huntsman does not need the exposure. Its order books are full.


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## Bertie Wooster (Feb 11, 2006)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Huntsman does not need the exposure. Its order books are full.


TBH, I wasn't really considering the exposure that they might enjoy from having participated. My issue was somewhat more selfish as I'd have rather enjoyed seeing behind the scenes at Huntsman ( certainly more so than at some of the other houses ).


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Huntsman did feature - albeit briefly - in the first programme, if I recall correctly.

Perhaps the influence of the "Savile Row Bespoke" group has had some impact on who gets airtime. Clearly there was a big exception tonight because of the rival Savile Row Academy, but perhaps the producers found the most convenient access to persons and firms was through "Savile Row Bespoke", of which I *think* Kilgour is not a member?


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Scoiatilo said:


> The last fifty or so comments on this thread contain some pretty saddening stuff which I hope David Ward never reads.
> 
> David is an extremely talented young Cutter and moreover is extremely well regarded and well liked at every firm for which he has worked. Sadly he has been made to look a bit of an ass by the documentary makers. As we see very briefly, he was in China to assist in the training of the local cutters, something for which he is entirely qualified. For everything else that the programme shows him doing he seemed unprepared or just out of his depth. He is an extremely charming man but he is no professional Diplomat, nor is he a Brand Manager. David has spent his last fifteen years at the board and in the fitting room doing what we should all hope our cutters are doing and that is perfecting the art of cutting.


I don't know if I speak for everyone on here but I think that most people were criticising the way that the programme tried to embarass him and Poole's rather than criticising the man himself.
They made him look very David Brent when I'm sure he's not really like that at all.



archduke said:


> I am surprised about the lack of input from Kilgour, one of the largest and respected houses, who still do full bespoke service. They also have a long and famous history.


Apparently Kilgour refused to participate in the programme. After the way it was edited I think they had a lucky escape. They get more than enough PR anyway.
It's a shame they weren't featured though because they represent the younger side of the Row in some ways.

Better episode tonight but I wish they didn't keep portraying the Row as an intimidating elitist place. I realise that they were trying to show that Norton are attempting to dispel that myth but why couldn't they have shown other tailors who are already far more approachable?
All 3 episodes were centred around just 3 or 4 tailors which is a shame because that leaves out quite a few.

The golden shears part was interesting though and I thought that the right person won in the end.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Rossini said:


> I *think* Kilgour is not a member?


No they aint.


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## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

I thought this episode the best of the three - much better than last week's oriental ramblings. American viewers have a treat in store with the sight of HM the Queen's personal bodyguard, all aged between 52 and 70, being kitted out in full regimentals and swords. It was like a scene from 'Zulu Dawn'. 

I cringed and felt sympathy for Mr Liczack (sp?) when he went out to Hollywood to fit some motion picture mogul with a suit, who said that his brother, a lawyer in LA, had been banned from wearing suits because he made his colleagues 'look bad'. 

I also cringed when I saw what the 'stylists' had done to the suit at the Golden Shears competition, by replacing the red tie with some god-awful 'designer' collar. It was interesting to see the Merchant Taylor's premises though. 

I felt the BBC made too much of a thing about the lack of young tailors coming up, which obviously isn't true because they were setting up an academy for them. The Row can't really be in too dire straits, because if they were, there would not be so much competition. I was also interested in the shop that the Asian young cutter went to work in - somewhere in Waterloo I think. It looked like a cross between a tailor's and a charity shop. 

A little bit on tailoring outside the Row as a comparison would have been useful for this series I think, instead of comparisons with Abercrombie and Fitch and other off the peg brands. It would have been nice to see some of the 'Georges' in their backstreet shops in the London suburbs and hear their views, though perhaps they are too small to even matter now.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

First an apology to Mr Ward, I know how television editors can distort the impression we receive about a person.

The third episode apart from a basic topic of training seemed to be the repository of all the pieces of film they did not want to throw away but could not fit in elsewhere.

As an outsider my own opinion of which firms benefited from taking part based on what the editors showed us.
Top - Maurice Sedwell - quality, quality, quality
Then - Sexton - style and history
Then - Norton - sensible boss aiming to do the right thing
Then - Richard Anderson - friendly team

The ones that did not do themeselves much harm or good
Ravi Tailor
Anderson and Sheppard
Dege and Skinner
Richard James
Henry Poole - though their Chinese adventure may put then in the loosers.

The ones who would have lost customers if they had watched the program
Gieves and Hawkes and Ozwald Boateng - even thinking of a "Montague Burton" central manufacturing facility for Savile Row clothes!


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

LondonFogey said:


> I also cringed when I saw what the 'stylists' had done to the suit at the Golden Shears competition, by replacing the red tie with some god-awful 'designer' collar. It was interesting to see the Merchant Taylor's premises though.
> 
> A little bit on tailoring outside the Row as a comparison would have been useful for this series I think, instead of comparisons with Abercrombie and Fitch and other off the peg brands. It would have been nice to see some of the 'Georges' in their backstreet shops in the London suburbs and hear their views, though perhaps they are too small to even matter now.


Can't believe the young cutters couldn't dress the models themselves. Their worst fears must have been realised when that s/b 2 btn suit with peak lapels was worn by a model with both buttons done up. :icon_pale:

I agree about tailoring outside the Row. Plenty of tailors in Soho worth a look.



culverwood said:


> As an outsider my own opinion of which firms benefited from taking part based on what the editors showed us.
> Top - Maurice Sedwell - quality, quality, quality
> Then - Sexton - style and history
> Then - Norton - sensible boss with aiming to do the right thing
> ...


I agree about your 'order of shame' although I would put A&S even lower after the way their staff insist on making snobbish cliched remarks every time they open their mouths.
In the case of Ravi Tailor, I just ended up feeling sorry for him as he walked down the Row counting the steps with his son in that previous episode. Not that that says much about his tailoring ability either way.
As far as G&H are concerned I don't think Mark Henderson came across very well in any of the interviews / meetings that were filmed.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

culverwood said:


> The third episode apart from a basic topic of training seemed to be the repository of all the pieces of film they did not want to throw away but could not fit in elsewhere.


Yes, this was really my view.

The point made above about exploring tailors beyond this exclusive club would have been interesting but possibly it might have undermined the uniqueness they were attempting to convey. As many have noted here, the "Row" was made to look exclusive and full of grandeur with (last night) suit prices creeping up beyond a starting price of £3,000. I found myself wondering about some of the London tailors I have seen mentioned on AAAC who offer bespoke from £1,000 or £1,500 + and whether they are really all that far off the standards of Savile Row.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hi,
Personally I found Richard James' appearance the highlight of the programme yesterday. He arrived on the Row saying that bespoke was outdated, then he changed his mind and suddenly decided it was "trendy" and the staff of a "leading men's magazine" turned up to photograph him and listen to his wisdom. 

Only in this country eh?!

Also how about the voiceover mentioning that young people wouldn't go to the Row as there was nothing to browse through. Missing the point spectacularly once again! 

Chris.


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

I only caught snippets of this last night. Did record it, though, and will watch it in full tonight.

However, from what I did catch, I found the emphasis on the Row being stuffy and unapproachable a bit depressing and unhelpful. It strikes me as odd that the programme-makers could have spent as much time and effort as they did without really warming to their subject. Personally, give me three grand or so to spend on a SR tailor of my choice, and I'd be feeling pretty excited, not intimidated.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

chrstc said:


> Hi,
> Personally I found Richard James' appearance the highlight of the programme yesterday. He arrived on the Row saying that bespoke was outdated, then he changed his mind and suddenly decided it was "trendy" and the staff of a "leading men's magazine" turned up to photograph him and listen to his wisdom.
> 
> Only in this country eh?!
> ...


Yes I forgot about the Richard James part. I admired his courage after hearing that he posted up all the negative comments from the other SR tailors in the window.



ashie259 said:


> Personally, give me three grand or so to spend on a SR tailor of my choice, and I'd be feeling pretty excited, not intimidated.


Good point, and it wouldn't even require £3,000 imo.
As a young man I'd be excited if someone only gave me enough to buy a semi-bespoke / entry level bespoke suit or even an off the peg from Kilgour or Chester Barrie.
But they didn't mention the other products on offer on the Row. Full bespoke, rightly or wrongly got all the attention.


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## Winot (Oct 12, 2006)

chrstc said:


> Hi,
> Also how about the voiceover mentioning that young people wouldn't go to the Row as there was nothing to browse through. Missing the point spectacularly once again!


You're right, but what struck me at that moment was how easy it would have been for Norton & Sons to hang up some priced OTR ties to help nervous potential customers feel at ease. Perhaps some Savile Row tailors already do this?


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Winot said:


> You're right, but what struck me at that moment was how easy it would have been for Norton & Sons to hang up some priced OTR ties to help nervous potential customers feel at ease. Perhaps some Savile Row tailors already do this?


Hello,
You're right too! You can get a rough idea of whether the suits in a shop will be in your price range from the other items they sell. Dege and Skinner have a lot of RTW items for sale ranging from socks and ties to cashmere and dressing gowns. Huntsman and Kilgour have a lot of RTW items too. Norton do have Lockie cashmere lurking in their somewhere too. However in a little interview I read with Patrick Grant not long ago his choice of tie was an Armani which I found odd.

Chris.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Winot said:


> You're right, but what struck me at that moment was how easy it would have been for Norton & Sons to hang up some priced OTR ties to help nervous potential customers feel at ease. Perhaps some Savile Row tailors already do this?


I thought that that whole scene was clumsy and stupid. Some young man who we knew nothing about and who looked nothing like a potential customer, walked into Norton complaining that even the door looked prohibitive.
He then walked around saying "Now that I'm in here I don't even know what to do" as if he'd been abandoned in an empty and intimidating gentleman's club complete with stuffed heads.

This seemed so stupid to me. Even in the most (supposedly) intimidating store of the lot, Huntsman you would be greeted by a young and pleasant (non-condescending) assistant within seconds of walking through the door. He would then be happy to explain everything to you clearly.

They also have a range of fabric bunches laid out in most stores so that if you don't know what to do you can at least look at fabrics.
It was if they set out to deliberately to make the Row look more intimidating than it is. Great scene for attracting new blood to the Row.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Bonhamesque said:


> As a young man I'd be excited if someone only gave me enough to buy a semi-bespoke / entry level bespoke suit or even an off the peg from Kilgour or Chester Barrie.


Hello,
Speaking of Chester Barrie, has anyone used them in this latest incarnation? In other words, since the latest takeover, are they still made in England (now that they don't own Cheshire Bespoke do they have the suits made there but pay for the privilege or are they made elsewhere) and is the quality still as high as it was? Does anyone know what the current prices are like (particularly for their sports jackets)?

Thanks very much,
Chris.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> Speaking of Chester Barrie, has anyone used them in this latest incarnation? In other words, since the latest takeover, are they still made in England (now that they don't own Cheshire Bespoke do they have the suits made there but pay for the privilege or are they made elsewhere) and is the quality still as high as it was? Does anyone know what the current prices are like (particularly for their sports jackets)?
> 
> Thanks very much,
> Chris.


Cheshire Bespoke makes RTW and MTM for Lutwyche Bespoke (naturally), Chester Barrie and Huntsman. Cheshire Bespoke hired ex-Cheshire Clothing (and Chester Barrie) cutters and tailors. The quality remains excellent. Current Chester Barrie prices around £1200-£1400 for a suit and £800 to £100 for a blazer or sports jacket. The sale finished about 10 days ago. The discount was around 30 to 40%.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Cheshire Bespoke makes RTW and MTM for Lutwyche Bespoke (naturally), Chester Barrie and Huntsman. Cheshire Bespoke hired ex-Cheshire Clothing (and Chester Barrie) cutters and tailors. The quality remains excellent. Current Chester Barrie prices around £1200-£1400 for a suit and £800 to £100 for a blazer or sports jacket. The sale finished about 10 days ago. The discount was around 30 to 40%.


Hello,
Thanks very much for the information, then. I'll have to have a look next time I'm in the area.

Thanks again,
Chris.


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## aflamini (Apr 25, 2007)

From a younger generation point of view I think that that young man's moaning about there was nothing to browse at once inside a savile row shop is quite legitimate. More suits on display certainly helps.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

aflamini said:


> From a younger generation point of view I think that that young man's moaning about there was nothing to browse at once inside a savile row shop is quite legitimate. More suits on display certainly helps.


Hello,
I suppose the point is that the tailors expect you to already have a rough idea of the house styles before you go in to any of the shops on the Row. I don't imagine they expect to catch much passing trade or casual business with the suits costing as much as they do. Having said that I can see that for those who don't use forums like this or have families who have always bought bespoke clothing it could be tricky to choose a particular tailor with the huge variety on offer and that more suits on display would help.

As a young (ish- late 20s) man myself I have a list of 4 or so tailors that I would love to try if those winning numbers would just match the ones on my ticket for a change!

Chris.


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## &Son (Feb 18, 2008)

While I certainly have to agree that not having OTR items to browse through is missing the point, it also seems a legitimate gripe. There may be hundreds of swatches to look through when ordering an item, but how easy is it to imagine that swatch as a fully formed jacket or suit? I think having OTR items available to look at and compare make visualizing the final product easier and the purchase less intimidating. I'm sure more than a few of us have seen a swatch of cloth we loved, only to be seriously disappointed with the way it looked as a finished garment.


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> I have a list of 4 or so tailors that I would love to try if those winning numbers would just match the ones on my ticket for a change!
> 
> Chris.


Yes, wouldn't it be fun to be a SR slag for a bit before settling down?


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

&Son said:


> While I certainly have to agree that not having OTR items to browse through is missing the point, it also seems a legitimate gripe. There may be hundreds of swatches to look through when ordering an item, but how easy is it to imagine that swatch as a fully formed jacket or suit? I think having OTR items available to look at and compare make visualizing the final product easier and the purchase less intimidating. I'm sure more than a few of us have seen a swatch of cloth we loved, only to be seriously disappointed with the way it looked as a finished garment.


If not OTR, there's a lot that could be done with more interactive whole samples and video/photo screens. Might attract tourists, however!


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## aflamini (Apr 25, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> I suppose the point is that the tailors expect you to already have a rough idea of the house styles before you go in to any of the shops on the Row. I don't imagine they expect to catch much passing trade or casual business with the suits costing as much as they do. Having said that I can see that for those who don't use forums like this or have families who have always bought bespoke clothing it could be tricky to choose a particular tailor with the huge variety on offer and that more suits on display would help.
> 
> As a young (ish- late 20s) man myself I have a list of 4 or so tailors that I would love to try if those winning numbers would just match the ones on my ticket for a change!
> ...


If they don't need passing trade why have a shop front in the most expensive area in the most expensive city?

Anyway the majority of those who have friends or families recommendations would probably have their suits made by the likes of Terry Haste, John Coggins and John Lester, except for those who have money to burn.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

aflamini said:


> From a younger generation point of view I think that that young man's moaning about there was nothing to browse at once inside a savile row shop is quite legitimate. More suits on display certainly helps.


Yes I suppose it does. Most SR shops that I've been into have some suits that you can look at, whether they sell off the pegs or not.
I'm not sure why Norton don't have anything to look at but it was disappointing the way they implied that all SR shops are like that.
Norton are Norton and if they're too intimidating / not enticing enough that's their problem but don't imply that the entire street is set up like that.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

aflamini said:


> Anyway the majority of those who have friends or families recommendations would probably have their suits made by the likes of *Terry Haste*, John Coggins and John Lester, except for those who have money to burn.


Isn't Terry Haste at Huntsman?


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

aflamini said:


> If they don't need passing trade why have a shop front in the most expensive area in the most expensive city?
> 
> Anyway the majority of those who have friends or families recommendations would probably have their suits made by the likes of Terry Haste, John Coggins and John Lester, except for those who have money to burn.


Hi,
I didn't say that the shops wouldn't welcome some extra business- I'm sure they would. However do you really think that there are that many people, even in Mayfair, who might set out for a stroll around Regent Street for example and then, having found Savile Row and seen some nice windows, spend £3000 on a suit there and then? I think that for all but the insanely rich there's much more of a decision-making process involved and some research to be done. You might buy a shirt in Jermyn Street on a whim but a £3000 whim that will take several months to be delivered? The delivery time itself surely takes the impulse buy factor out of the equation even if price isn't an issue.

As for families and friends etc I was just making the point that many bespoke firms have associations with certain families going back generations. You would be taken to those firms by your parents as a child and would build a lifelong relationship with them. Whether there are other firms that are "better" or "cheaper" wouldn't come in to the equation as your family had always gone to Poole or Huntsman etc etc.

I totally agree about the difficulties of imagining a fabric swatch as a garment but, of course, some fabrics look better on certain body shapes than others and so even with hundreds of suits on display you wouldn't get a totally accurate snapshot of the finished thing. I suppose that's where tailoring experience comes in to the mix. Choose a good tailor and they will, presumably, be able to help you through these parts of the process.

That's how I look at it anyway!!

Chris.


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## Franko (Nov 11, 2007)

*A follow up.*



LondonFogey said:


> "I was also interested in the shop that the Asian young cutter went to work in - somewhere in Waterloo I think. It looked like a cross between a tailor's and a charity shop". quote]
> 
> They are called Classic Cuts, formerly of Streatham, the young guy would have been attractive to them I suspect because of his presumed skills and he would probably feel more comfortable with them because they get a fair amount of theatre work, in the clips you can see 'wild clothes' (the sort worn by Wellington), he gave (or I got) the impression that he got the sack after the Golden Shears, because he didn't fit in, uhm.
> 
> ...


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

chrstc said:


> However do you really think that there are that many people, even in Mayfair, who might set out for a stroll around Regent Street for example and then, having found Savile Row and seen some nice windows, spend £3000 on a suit there and then? I think that for all but the insanely rich there's much more of a decision-making process involved and some research to be done.


But perhaps that's exactly why the firms should display some already-made garments; it would help to have something more than a bolt of cloth to think about when decision-making.


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## LondonFogey (May 18, 2006)

Franko said:


> LondonFogey said:
> 
> 
> > "I was also interested in the shop that the Asian young cutter went to work in - somewhere in Waterloo I think. It looked like a cross between a tailor's and a charity shop". quote]
> ...


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

RJman said:


> Isn't Terry Haste at Huntsman?


No. IIRC, he left two or three years ago. I read that he works from home around the Goodwood area. Nick Foulkes wrote that he followed Terry from Hackett to Huntsman. Foulkes has written about his experiences as a Huntsman customer so it was surprising to see him being fitted at Anderson & Sheppard in the first programme.


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

LondonFogey said:


> Lower Marsh [...] always had a somewhat post-war feel about it - one expected to find spivs and bomb sites just around the corner.


Not without reason - Kennington Road (literally around the corner from Lower Marsh for those of you not familiar with the area) took a couple of particularly nasty hits during the war. Apparently one 'enterprising' local chap saw this as a chance to bump his wife off and dump her body in one of the bombed-out houses, claiming that was how she met her death. In what was one of the first forensics-based murder investigations (IIRC), he was found out and eventually hanged.

Anyway, I digress. I saw this programme last night and, like others here, found it more enjoyable than the previous episode. Most of the salient points have already been well made on this thread, but I wonder if anyone else noticed a certain ageist and occasionally 'laddish' thread running through the programme? There were several clear nods to the 'Loaded' reader, such as the totally outrageous lingering of the camera on the Anderson & Sheppard co-owner's bum as it followed her up the stairs. And then there was the line about SR having to seduce people away from the big brands 'in favour of a lifetime touching cloth.' Nice.

The sound quality of interviews hadn't improved - but then the 'Savile Row Academy' meeting at G&H was so clunkily edited that it didn't make any sense even if you could hear it.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

> Most of the salient points have already been well made on this thread, but I wonder if anyone else noticed a certain ageist and occasionally 'laddish' thread running through the programme? There were several clear nods to the 'Loaded' reader, such as the totally outrageous lingering of the camera on the Anderson & Sheppard co-owner's bum as it followed her up the stairs.


Hello,
Don't forget the amount of time that was spent filming Edward Sexton measuring Marie Helvin's bust. The close-up then was rather OTT as well!

I think one conclusion that we can draw from this series of programmes is that, whatever their failings, they have certainly got us all talking about Savile Row again haven't they! I know that's about as tricky as getting Donald Trump to talk about money but we still seem to be considering a familiar subject from a few new angles.

All publicity is useful I suppose!

Chris.


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## RSS (Dec 30, 2003)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> Foulkes has written about his experiences as a Huntsman customer so it was surprising to see him being fitted at Anderson & Sheppard in the first programme.


 I wouldn't dare compare myself to Foulkes ... but I did that walk in reverse ... then on to Richard Anderson ... and have recently tried A&S again ... although with a one-button SB coat.

Even with the recent try of A&S, I remain a customer of Richard.

EDIT: Sorry about the post (now deleted) last evening requesting more posts about the series. Only after I hit send did I realize that I'd missed pages 2-8!


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## ashie259 (Aug 25, 2005)

RSS said:


> Sorry about the post (now deleted) last evening requesting more posts about the series. Only after I hit send did I realize that I'd missed pages 2-8!


Careful what you wish for!


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## Holdfast (Oct 30, 2005)

ashie259 said:


> Most of the salient points have already been well made on this thread, but I wonder if anyone else noticed a certain ageist and occasionally 'laddish' thread running through the programme? There were several clear nods to the 'Loaded' reader, such as the totally outrageous lingering of the camera on the Anderson & Sheppard co-owner's bum as it followed her up the stairs.


Maybe they were admiring the tailoring? :icon_smile_big:


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Holdfast said:


> Maybe they were admiring the tailoring? :icon_smile_big:


Oh very good, *tail*oring. Hmm! :icon_smile_big:


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## morgan (Sep 24, 2005)

*Just watched the third programme...*

... and here are a few observations:

The new Norton logo is, frankly, awful. Classic typefaces never age but that one will look dated in less than 10 years. I guarantee it.

I regretted the lack of captions for the speakers. It would have been nice to know who they were.

Same low marks to the script and the interviewer as before.

All the apprentices featured were terrific, I thought. The quiet satisfaction displayed by the eventual winner of the Golden Shears would be enough to get me through the doors of Dege.

I was dismayed to see Hackett among the tailors appearing at the show itself.

The young man who ended up at Classic Cuts knew his creativity wouldn't be appreciated by the Row who seem - like a lot of firms in general - want trainees to be malleable. I liked the costume he made.

Richard James apparantly having stood in opposition to the Row is now embracing it? So the new bespoke is the old bespoke?

Hmpf.


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## Mr Brent (Mar 21, 2008)

Bonhamesque said:


> How bizarre?!
> Maybe Poole's sacked him for embarassing the firm...? :devil:


To whom it may concern

Unfortunately the contents of this forum have only just been brought to my attention. It is a shame that particular individuals can arrive at negative and cheap remarks on the back of a small fraction of a very poorly edited episode of the Savile Row documentary. 

I shall not try to justify my credentials here, as my reputation as a Savile Row cutter is known to those who matter "on Savile Row". The comments in this thread that refer to a "David Brent" persona seem to make more of a mockery of the originators of the remarks and the Ask Andy forum, rather than the individual it is written about due to an absence of knowledge that relates to the person and the reputation of Savile Row cutters in general.

Kind Regards

David "Brenty" Ward


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I apologise if anything I said was hurtful. I realise how the media can distort anything they wish to, in order to tell the story they want to tell.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Mr Brent said:


> To whom it may concern
> 
> Unfortunately the contents of this forum have only just been brought to my attention. It is a shame that particular individuals can arrive at negative and cheap remarks on the back of a small fraction of a very poorly edited episode of the Savile Row documentary.
> 
> ...


Hi David,

Welcome to the forum. It's a shame that you arrived here under these circumstances as I'm sure that the forum members would love to hear from you on all matters Savile Row and any cutting expertise you might want to divulge.

As for the editing I've always maintained that it was utterly terrible in those programs.
Although I didn't meet him I'm told that the man doing the interviewing was intelligent and passionate about Savile Row. However the editing was clearly done by a man who reads The Sun or The Mail as he tried to milk every stereotype going and was not really that interested in tailoring.
He was more interested in filming you semi-naked in the bathroom on a business trip or struggling with foreign dishes.

I have no idea why you left Poole but my throwaway remark was a joke founded on the idea that the conservative Cundey's (who love to polish their Royal Warrants) saw that episode and felt ashamed or felt that it tarnished their very traditional image.
I'm not under the illusion that that's what actually happened.
Perhaps you could tell us the real reason you left so that we won't make stupid remarks about it? :icon_smile_wink:

Personally I don't doubt your cutting skills at all and in fact the part of that program that I was looking forward to the most was hearing your tuition within the Chinese branch of Poole, but of course they interrupted that to take you away to another event.

I often think that the tailoring houses on the Row should get together and make a far better, more interesting documentary on the history of the Row that mentions many more tailors rather than just a few, and points out the differences between them.
They could certainly afford to do that but getting it aired on TV could be difficult.

Anyway good luck with your new employers and hope you stay on the forum.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Bonhamesque said:


> I often think that the tailoring houses on the Row should get together and make a far better, more interesting documentary on the history of the Row that mentions many more tailors rather than just a few, and points out the differences between them.
> They could certainly afford to do that but getting it aired on TV could be difficult.


They could do it and get it aired; however, they would not want to. There were people and Row customers who did not want to be part of the documentary.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

ToryBoy said:


> They could do it and get it aired; however, they would not want to. There were people and Row customers who did not want to be part of the documentary.


I'm sure there were but there were also tailors who were interviewed for an hour and then 99% of the interview was cut out.
There were many other tailors who weren't even asked too.

I just think that one of the questions that's most often asked by potential clients of the Row is "What's the difference between the tailors and which one is right for me?".
The tailors on the Row could do themselves a huge favour and answer that question with a brief description of the differences between them and their competitors.
In my opinion that would increase business on the Row.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Bonhamesque said:


> I'm sure there were but there were also tailors who were interviewed for an hour and then 99% of the interview was cut out.


Geives and Hawkes were not happy about this and I did speak to a few people about. Especially the scene when A&F opened, they showed G&H was empty, it was not. 
There were scenes and information that Patrick (Nortons) wanted included but they were not.

These are the examples I am a lot more about and the annoying thing that a lot of important information was exlcuded for some banter.



Bonhamesque said:


> There were many other tailors who weren't even asked too.


Some smaller houses were ignored. Some people did not want to be part of it, most were editted out.



Bonhamesque said:


> The tailors on the Row could do themselves a huge favour and answer that question with a brief description of the differences between them and their competitors.
> In my opinion that would increase business on the Row.


I agree and they would have to do it themselves; however, the problem it is that the big houses would be the focus and the smaller houses may not get a look in. 
Who would oversee this, the SRB? What about houses not with the SRB?

I would love to see them do something and help increase all their revenue.

Let's me honest, how many people would spend at least £2-3.5k on a suit? The best way to increase the revenue is to have more options like RTW, which we have seen from some houses. Some of the RTW customer may get MTM or even bespoke in the future; while MTM customers may get something bespoke.

Then there are people who do not want suits from The Row.


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

ToryBoy said:


> I agree and they would have to do it themselves; however, the problem it is that the big houses would be the focus and the smaller houses may not get a look in.
> Who would oversee this, the SRB? What about houses not with the SRB?
> 
> I would love to see them do something and help increase all their revenue.


Well I haven't really given this any serious thought but my initial idea was that instead of being organised by the SRB it could just be arranged by one tailor or perhaps Savile Row Style magazine who would send a camera crew into each store and film the staff talking about their product.

Each tailor would be alloted exactly the same length of time in the documentary and it would be up to them how they used that time and how they edited it too.
That way the big boys would get no more exposure than the smaller companies.
All participating tailors would contribute an equal share of the costs.

It'll probably never happen but it's just a thought.


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