# Fabric books of choice from Holland and Sherry, Dormeuil and other fabric suppliers



## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

If it is at all possible for me to do so, I would like to buy a copy of Book HS136 (Holland and Sherry Super 120s Summer Target Collection) directly from Holland and Sherry for myself. I would also like to buy a copy of Book 701 (Allegro) directly from Dormeuil for myself.

Depending on what kind of job I land in the next few months, I may be or may not be buying a few made to measure suits from Oxxford. I would like my made to measure suits to be made out of a few fabrics from each of the fabric books from H&S and Dormeuil mentioned above.

All 77 fabrics in Book HS136 from H&S are 280 gram/9 ounce 100% super 120s worsted wool.

All of the fabrics in Book 701 from Dormeuil are 250 gram/8 ounce 100% super 120s wool (worsted or non worsted; I don’t remember which one, unfortunately). Also, I do not remember the exact or even approximate number of fabrics in Book 701 from Dormeuil.

Anyway, will H&S and Dormeuil sell me a copy of their fabrics books of my choice that I mentioned above? I should mention that I am not a tailor. I should also mention that I also do not work in any part of the retail, clothing or fashion industries. If H&S and Dormeuil are willing to sell me a copy of their fabric books of my choice mentioned above, how much will they charge me for a copy of these fabrics books?

FWIW, I tried emailing H&S and Dormeuil about a month ago and I got no response. I also tried calling them but had serious connection problems when doing so. That is why I am asking these questions here on AAAC.

Any information or insight regarding these inquiries will be greatly appreciated and immensely helpful. Thank you dearly in advance!


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

If they are willing, which is unlikely, they will probably charge you $200-300 per book.


----------



## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> If they are willing, which is unlikely, they will probably charge you $200-300 per book.


Thank you, Alex.  When I have the chance, I will visit the Manhattan offices for H&S and Dormeuil and take a look at Books HS136 (from H&S) and 701 (from Dormeuil).


----------



## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

fabric companies do not make money by selling fabric swatch books. they make money when the tailors order fabric from the swatch book.
swatch books are distributed free of charge to the tailors. the books are usually good for 2-3 years. during that time the fabric companies need to make sure the fabrics stay in stock. the fabric companies usualy make x number of books and do not make more books of that range.
If a fabric company sells you a book then they will not return their investment in the swatch book.If you do not return a borrowed book to the tailor then the tailor will not be able to get another copy. I think if you planned to order 20-30 suits out of the book then I think the fabric company would give you a book. 
I think your tailor will lend you a book over a weekend. How hard is it to pick out a suit or two. I am not down playing your suit purchase, but how different will your life be if you end up with the grey glen plaid with the blue windowpane or the solid navy shadow stripe.

Often old swatch books can be purchsed at vintage textile shows.
Or ask your tailor to save out of date swatch books.


carl


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Why deny yourself the social experience of leafing through the book with your tailor on hand for advise? This is a social perk to compensate for that day last week: Remember? standing in line with Some tabloid naming Condi Rice as Bush's paramour and how furious Laura is, the canned music playing a stirring rendition of Laura's Theme, the two goth girls smelling of patchouli and pot while the clerk asked you paper or plastic and parted with have a good one as her eyes were already on the goth girl's 24 pack of beer, kiwi fruit and hickory flavoured chips.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Kav said:


> Why deny yourself the social experience of leafing through the book with your tailor on hand for advise? This is a social perk to compensate for that day last week: Remember? standing in line with Some tabloid naming Condi Rice as Bush's paramour and how furious Laura is, the canned music playing a stirring rendition of Laura's Theme, the two goth girls smelling of patchouli and pot while the clerk asked you paper or plastic and parted with have a good one as her eyes were already on the goth girl's 24 pack of beer, kiwi fruit and hickory flavoured chips.


I'm so glad I don't live in California.  :icon_smile_big:


----------



## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't see many Goth girls despite going to the market closest to a huge public university (CSULB, which my stepson happens to attend). And the weather...if they have a climate in Heaven, it would be what we had today!


----------



## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

Shirtmaven said:


> swatch books are distributed free of charge to the tailors... the fabric companies usualy make x number of books and do not make more books of that range.


That's it in a nutshell.

Though, I would add that new tailors don't get their books for free - not anymore. New businesses typically have to buy the books the first few seasons until they've established a working relationship and demonstrated sufficient annual volume for the fee to be waived.

With the exception of two, every fabric rep I know groans when you mention that you are looking for a swatch kit or headers. Too many newbies are greedy for information and strain their resources without knowing it.

Sidenote: I don't think H&S or Dormeuil receives customers, let alone end-consumers, in their offices. You might get a 'bye' if you're Big_Name_Designer. I'd start by calling a field rep from H&S/Dormeuil for a referral to one of the retailers of their cloth.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

One tailor told me that in the old days cloth merchants would provide the lining free of charge with every order along with promotional posters, calenders etc. Over the years all of these little niceties fell by the wayside one by one. Apparently, there was even a time they also provided tailors with fashion plates. I own some poster sized Edwardian fashion plates which have fabric swatches on the back. I guess this was one way that whenever you went to your tailor you were guaranteed access to the latest styles out of London or New York, no matter where you lived. In this way fabric merchants ensured that the local tailor was your life-line to staying in touch with the bleeding edge of fashion. Now fabric merchants provide little in the way of these things by way of service to tailors and their customers. I say it is to their own detriment. 

What a pity that cloth merchants have cut back to the bone so that they even make it difficult for willing buyers to freely access their swatches. Maybe they don't value our custom? It would be really good if they could put quality pictures of all their cloths on-line with an option of either buying a swatch or even purchasing lengths (as with J&J Minnis). The later is unfortunately impractical due to the need to keep middle men happy.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

jsprowls9 said:


> Sidenote: I don't think H&S or Dormeuil receives customers, let alone end-consumers, in their offices. You might get a 'bye' if you're Big_Name_Designer. I'd start by calling a field rep from H&S/Dormeuil for a referral to one of the retailers of their cloth.


Dunno about Dormeuil but I've had no trouble visiting H&S, Just call and ask politely.


----------



## Taxler (Oct 22, 2006)

Can anyone explain why distributors don't take good high resolution photos of all their fabrics and make them available for viewing? It wouldn't be the same as actually feeleing the fabric, but it might be a good compromise with minimal cost and mutual benefit.


----------



## Anthony Jordan (Apr 29, 2005)

Not quite the same, I know, but Ravi will sell swatches (up to 20 for US$20, dispatched), and carries a few Dormeuil cloths:

https://www.ravistailor.com/fabsearch.php


----------



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

At the tailor I go to while the British fabric samples are just that, the books from one or maybe more if the Italian companies have some interesting fashion shots of the fabric being worn in outfits very much as Sator and Taxler were suggesting.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Here is the front and back of an Edwardian fashion plate:



















There is a line in fineprint saying "Extra charge for this style - see price list". This suggests that this poster sized fashion plate was made for a tailor in collaboration with a fabric merchant.

It would appear likely there was a whole industry of fabric merchants, tailors, publishers, and fashion plate artists who collaborated in putting these things together.

What on earth happened to that whole infrastructure which helped ensure that bespoke tailoring continued to thrive? Gone with the wind...

Instead, we as the customers have to toil and scrape together old fashion plates/illustrations (Etutees articles on LL are an excellent example), photographs etc for ourselves to study, print out and even take to our tailors.

The cloth merchants sit on their butts and do absolutely nothing to help us. Nothing! The least they can do is to put high resolution scans of cloths on their websites for us to peruse. Even better they could provide quality scans of classical fashion illustrations from AA/Esky etc on their websites. Yet they do nothing for us - their customers.


----------



## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

the relationship between fabric merchants/fabric mills and tailors has changed quite a bit in the last 30 years.
what percentage of customers buy their custom made/bespoke/mtm suits from an actual tailor vs. a store or travelling salesman.

the MTM or cmt clothing companies have the advantage of buying from the mills directly. buying 1/2 or full rolls at a discount and putting their own fabric books out. the cost to hold fabric is higher, but their margins are better because the suit length at book price which might be $100 per yard, was only $30 per yard when bought in bulk.
the mill may also sell off odd pieces of the same quality at even better prices.
My point is that the fabric merchants like Holland and sherry, scabal, and Dormeuil have lost considerable market share. they used to have very good relationships with the individual tailors. there are few individual tailors any more. when you walk into your local clothing store, they have MTM programs with several companies not just one. the stores do not want to be bothered with extra swatch books. the cmt house charge more for your fabric then for the same fabric in their own swatchbooks

carl


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Shirtmaven said:


> the relationship between fabric merchants/fabric mills and tailors has changed quite a bit in the last 30 years.
> 
> they used to have very good relationships with the individual tailors. there are few individual tailors any more.


All too true. I suspect the same is true with shirtings.

When you look at illustrations from AA/Esky and fashion plates I often get the feeling they are created as much with the tailor in mind as the customer who orders the garment. Details of construction are always made quite explicit for a tailor to be able to draught a pattern off.

Gentlemen used to subscribe to series of fashion plates/illustrations in publications just to take to be able to take them to their tailors. There was a whole industry of publishers, illustrators, tailors and fabric merchants involved in keeping the bespoke tailoring industry alive. Today, one senses that whole apparatus has collapsed and with it the future of bespoke tailoring. Even in a magazine like Classic Style you see absolutely nothing in there seriously directed at the tailor and his customer in the manner of AA/Esky of old.

The existence of this very thread is proof that fabric merchants/mills have lost severely touch with their customers. Why is it that you can get tailors, shirtmakers, and cordwainers posting regularly on internet fora but you almost never see anyone from fabric merchants/mills posting? Yes, someone from Acorn posted once or twice ages ago - but after that....silence.


----------



## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

J&J Minnis / John G Hardy will mail out swatch books. The web address is below:

https://www.hfw-huddersfield.co.uk/hardyminnis/index.asp


----------



## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

Sator said:


> The existence of this very thread is proof that fabric merchants/mills have lost severely touch with their customers. Why is it that you can get tailors, shirtmakers, and cordwainers posting regularly on internet fora but you almost never see anyone from fabric merchants/mills posting? Yes, someone from Acorn posted once or twice ages ago - but after that....silence.


To the contrary. They are focusing solely on their customers. It's their customers' responsibility to focus on the end-consumer. All they've done is pare back the overages. Mills don't post on internet forums because, well, there's no point. It's not their customer base. Buyers find their sources at industry trade shows and by referrals within the industry.

I pine a little for the loss of the fashion plates you mention. Though, I don't know of any publishers who made these specifically for the end-consumer. I remember that large tailoring houses worked in partnership with their fabric suppliers to collaborate on and create/maintain such things as loaners and sales books - not, subscription.

Men's Modes, The Practical Cutter & Tailor, Tailor & Cutter, Modern Mitchell, were all publications directly geared for the tailoring trade. Fabric mills, trimmings manufacturers, machine manufacturers, etc. were heavy sponsors of these publications. In fact, Ferris Woollens owned The Practical Cutter & Tailor and passed that trade magazine onward as it Ferris was purchased by larger concerns. Eventually, one of the last "big fish" realized there was little return on the editorial division and disbanded it - it didn't generate sufficient sales of wool to justify its continuation.

In today's terms, industry people have access to style books, look books and a huge variety of reports and glossies. For example, one book I keep in shop is called Cadena. They are a fabric mill in Spain who releases a book, twice per year, of women's couture plates. Each plate consists of a photo, a technical 'flat' and the swatches the garment is made from. The dressmaker is responsible for creating the specific pattern - the pics are simply suggestions.

This 'book' costs me about $120 to bring in. And, to my recollection, no such book currently exists for menswear. I'm in process of calling several Dutch, French and German organizations - so, we'll see if that still holds true. Cadena does produce a magazine for the end consumer (https://www.cadenamujer.com/5/5_1.asp), too. It consists of mostly pictures the consumer can discuss with their dressmaker. Frankly, a subscription to this level of magazine is sufficient for the Designer's or Dressmaker's office - the 'book' is overkill unless you are sourcing fabric.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

jsprowls9 said:


> Mills don't post on internet forums because, well, there's no point. It's not their customer base


In so far as the customers of bespoke tailors are no longer their primary customer base you are right. However, there was a time when there were enough of us that we were important to them. Alas, no longer.



jsprowls9 said:


> I pine a little for the loss of the fashion plates you mention. Though, I don't know of any publishers who made these specifically for the end-consumer.


Fashion plates were apparently expensive, especially the colour ones. However, the very wealthy did subscribe to them so that they could be abreast of the latest fashions coming out of Paris and London (see Alice Mackerell,_ An Illustrated History of Fashion - 500 Years of Fashion Illustration_.


----------



## trims (Apr 12, 2007)

Sator said:


> The cloth merchants sit on their butts and do absolutely nothing to help us. Nothing! The least they can do is to put high resolution scans of cloths on their websites for us to peruse. Even better they could provide quality scans of classical fashion illustrations from AA/Esky etc on their websites. Yet they do nothing for us - their customers.


I would assume that no major cloth merchant has the time, manpower, or desire to work with individual end-customers. It would be a complete waste of money. At a time where every part of this industry is being hammered for lower prices, certain extras have to be cut out.

While you may long for the days of yore, I sincerely hope that you don't truly believe some of these requests are possible in the current business environment.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

trims said:


> While you may long for the days of yore, I sincerely hope that you don't truly believe some of these requests are possible in the current business environment.


I have merely suggested that fabric merchants should not yet give up on individual bespoke customers as a customer base. As I see it bespoke tailoring once thrived because of a large scale collaboration between mills, fabric merchants, tailors, illustrators, publishers and the customer at the end of the line. I would just like to see at least a small resurgence of such a collaboration making use of newer technology.

This is why I stated that I wished fabric merchants would modernise and use the internet to reach out to a new generation of bespoke customers. I stated that it would be helpful if they made their swatches available as high res scans on-line and that we might purchase samples of interest. I understand there is some project to collect together all issues of AA/Esky - perhaps cloth merchants might help fund this, and help ensure that their illustrations can be made widely available on-line. Keep in mind too that these such on-line resources are likely to appeal to more than individual bespoke customers and their tailors.

Indeed, the bespoke artisans I know tell me that the internet is now a major source through which a newer, younger cliental is becoming educated about the virtues of bespoke. I just wish fabric merchants would tap into this new world of possibilities too.


----------



## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

I'm sure I'm teaching a particular grandmother to suck eggs but this resource is worth mentioning:
https://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=8689


----------



## trims (Apr 12, 2007)

Sator said:


> Indeed, the bespoke artisans I know tell me that the internet is now a major source through which a newer, younger cliental is becoming educated about the virtues of bespoke. I just wish fabric merchants would tap into this new world of possibilities too.


How much more business do you think could be gained by a fabric house expanding their website and working directly with end-users?

Would the bespoke industry suddenly have a resurgence because fabrics could be viewed online rather than visiting your tailor and working with him?

Or would the fabric house now be swamped with emails, phone calls, and sample requests from end users looking to make a very small single purchase? This would then force the fabric company to hire more help, thus raising prices on fabric, making bespoke even further from the reach of the average consumer.

I think this would actually do more harm than good for the bespoke world.

You're ideas would be very nice, but not very practical from the suppliers point of view.:icon_smile_wink:


----------



## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

Sator said:


> Fashion plates were apparently expensive, especially the colour ones. However, the very wealthy did subscribe to them so that they could be abreast of the latest fashions coming out of Paris and London (see Alice Mackerell,_ An Illustrated History of Fashion - 500 Years of Fashion Illustration_.


Yes, I've seen that reference. And, I'll reiterate: these books/illustrations were commissioned by design houses and tailors and were loaned to clients for shopping purposes. I know of no historical publishers who produced these on a subscription basis. I'm happy to research if you can supply me with publishers' names, however.

Culver, Thank you for the library reference. It's nice to know that some libraries are keeping these references. Most have been purged due to lack of interest in libraries and the trade. A few of these sales books I've seen on eBay over the years - they're great collector items. Most costumers I know clamor for them.


----------



## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

*Thank you, everyone!*

Your information and insight regarding this topic is and will still be greatly appreciated and immensely helpful for a long time!


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

I think Sato is right, because the end of the line is the customer.

This marketing that jsprowls9 is only good for the micky mouse club hippie generation that got manipulate for the first 40 years of their life. As markets change so the platforms need to change with the new market methods. As more people turn to bespoke those in the business of bespoke need to step to the plate. 

The CTDA really gutted out bespoke from the whole reason why CTDA was created. Will they come back to their roots and start some genuine tailoring classes to create new tailors or continue with m2m?

Those born after the hippie generation, by far, more of them are interested in quality, which leads to bespoke. So those that produce for bespoke need to wake up.


----------



## Taxler (Oct 22, 2006)

Just because a fabric merchant makes images of the swatches available doesn't mean they have to do business directly with single customers. Show your product, and if it's something I'm interested in, I'll contact a retailer. It's the same formula just about every other industry uses.


----------



## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

Okay... well, let's take a step back a moment.

If a design house were to publish a lookbook for tailors (with flats or drafts) AND a magazine for consumers to browse contemporary styles, what would be the value proposition? How much is it worth, as an annual subscription?

I can tell you my current budget for style books, trend/color reports and sizing surveys runs about $5K most years, some years as high as $10K. I deal with no less than 10 different organizations to get information, plus about 15+ jobbers, 30+ mills and 55+ manufacturers. But, then, I work in product development for RTW.

Those investments could probably be scaled/pared down for the standalone tailor's shop, but:

What would a publication like this need to do for the tailor that would: a) reduce his/her investment of time/effort, b) improve his/her process, and c) improve sales? Are there currently service providers like this (e.g. Fishman's)?

What would a consumer-oriented publication need to do? Who would it need to reach? And, how would it need to be distributed to them? Are Consumers specifically looking for industrial-grade information to be delivered to their mailbox? Or, do they simply want higher calibre output than conventional mags, like: GQ, Esquire, Vogue, etc. offer?


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

The fact is that the websites of fabric merchants (H&S, Lesser - anyone you care to name) are woefully inadequate as a way of communicating with an international clientèle. This business of "but it's too impractical because of lack of resources from the poor state of the industry, and you can always telephone us instead" consigns the fabric industry to the status of dinosaurs. And next they wonder why they are in such a bad state. 

I would gladly receive electronic newletters from mills/merchants detailing the latest releases along with the possibility of obtaining samples. Never have I heard of such a thing being offered. 

The most useless creature of them all is the third party distributor of cloths. I cannot see how they add one iota to the product except cost. The official local distributor for Lesser locally is notorious for being unpleasant to work with and unhelpful while adding ridiculous mark-ups to the cloths. One tailor deals directly with H&S who then pass on a handling fee to the distributor for doing nothing. All to often he finds that a client will choose a cloth only to be told that the cloth is no longer available. He has to call the client back in to choose another one - a huge waste of time all round. All this could be alleviated by having the online status of cloths made visible 24/7.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

jsprowls9 said:


> Okay... well, let's take a step back a moment.
> 
> If a design house were to publish a lookbook for tailors (with flats or drafts) AND a magazine for consumers to browse contemporary styles, what would be the value proposition? How much is it worth, as an annual subscription?


Exactly. That's why I'm saying they need a decent website instead.


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

jsprowls9 said:


> Yes, I've seen that reference. And, I'll reiterate: these books/illustrations were commissioned by design houses and tailors and were loaned to clients for shopping purposes. I know of no historical publishers who produced these on a subscription basis. I'm happy to research if you can supply me with publishers' names, however.


Of course there were journals intended specifically for tailors, but there were others which catered to the fashion conscious public. What, you want me to supply names of their specific publishers over the last 300 years?

AA/Esky are full of fashion plates designed for the consumer to take to his tailor to have a garment made up in the style of the illustration. Here is an example from AA 1934:

Alice Mackerell refers to other magazines intended for the public in sections dealing with "fashion plates" - magazines such as _Vogue_ and _Harper's Bazaar_. These weren't available to the public? Fashion plates do not have to be big prints with tailors patterns on them.

This comes from _the West End Gazette_, January 1873:

Notice the way it has been used by a customer to order a dress suit - see the inked in alteration to the figure's tails. I doubt that the Gazette in question was even a fashion magazine, let alone something intended specifically for tailors. Yet fashion plates like this allowed the public to see what the latest fashions were, and they took the plates to the tailor to put in an order.


----------



## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

It appears I misunderstood what you were trying to convey. The fashion magazines from the past are more supportive and illustrative of style and garment features. I agree with that. I find the pictures in contemporary magazines do not lend themselves to garment analysis/review.

What I was specifically looking for was who the publishers of swatchbooks were, like you posted, earlier, with the garment illustration next to the swatches. There are a few manufacturers in existence, today. But, they assemble books and cards based on the client's (i.e. design house/tailor) specifications and inputs, like:

,
https://www.swatchworks.com/,


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Ideally, houses might maintain a website such as this:

https://www.hfw-huddersfield.co.uk/hardyminnis/asp/showroom.asp?seco=M

for browsing by end-users and tailors. There are obviously a lot of things you can't tell from the website (especially when the colors are so dark), but it has to make overseas sales much easier, whether direct to consumer or to a tailor after a client has had a chance to spin through the relevant books and form a short list.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Sator said:


> All this could be alleviated by having the online status of cloths made visible 24/7.


FYI, H&S's inventory is visible on their web site 24/7 (under stock enquiry). I've never found it to be inaccurate.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Concordia said:


> Ideally, houses might maintain a website such as this:
> 
> https://www.hfw-huddersfield.co.uk/hardyminnis/asp/showroom.asp?seco=M
> 
> for browsing by end-users and tailors. There are obviously a lot of things you can't tell from the website (especially when the colors are so dark), but it has to make overseas sales much easier, whether direct to consumer or to a tailor after a client has had a chance to spin through the relevant books and form a short list.


I believe that just my personal purchases and those of the men I've referred there have repaid that company's entire investment in their web site.


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Will said:


> FYI, H&S's inventory is visible on their web site 24/7 (under stock enquiry). I've never found it to be inaccurate.


Next to no pictures, though.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Concordia said:


> Next to no pictures, though.


A problem for sure but they do send swatches.


----------



## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Fashion TC said:


> If it is at all possible for me to do so, I would like to buy a copy of Book HS136 (Holland and Sherry Super 120s Summer Target Collection) directly from Holland and Sherry for myself. I would also like to buy a copy of Book 701 (Allegro) directly from Dormeuil for myself.
> 
> Depending on what kind of job I land in the next few months, I may be or may not be *buying a few made to measure suits from Oxxford*. I would like my made to measure suits to be made out of a few fabrics from each of the fabric books from H&S and Dormeuil mentioned above.


Why don't you just ask the salesman at Oxxford to show you these fabric swatches when you go in to be measured??


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

I can think of a number of reasons.

Perhaps the makers would like to afford the opportunity to the shirtmakers and tailors to suggest cloths to their clients?

Perhaps the makers realize than not every artisan can afford to offer all of the cloths they make?

As far as swatches online, perhaps the cost of bandwidth is a consideration?

Nonetheless, following are a few of the more recent offerings from Alumo and Thomas Mason. I have uploaded them to one of my alternative servers. Feel free to look until the excess bandwidth triggers automatic alarms and shuts down the server for the rest of the month.

Alumo - Specifications labeled:

BTW, some of these are ... by _*so far*_ words cannot describe ... the finest 200's I have ever handled. On the downside, they are requiring at least twice as long as normal to sew.

Thomas Mason 140's


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> On the downside, they are requiring at least twice as long as normal to sew.


Why would that be? (he asks displaying his ignorance yet again  )


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

medwards said:


> Why would that be? (he asks displaying his ignorance yet again  )


The finest of the above is the 4116 Soyella Duecento. Although virtually impossible to detect in an online scan, the alternating plain stripe (the one without the four micro-pinstripes on each side) is a long-float satin stripe. It is so slippery that water virtually beads up and rolls off. Trying to hold two pieces together and sew with any accuracy is harder than getting Jessica Alba out of her Zimmerli's.

​
So. Have I successfully changed the subject?


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Masterfully. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## andreyb (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm in for having scans of swatches available online.

Consider my real situation: I order shirts via my tailor. He doesn't make them himself, instead he uses services of Mr Ford from Russell & Hodge. Also, my tailor is not knowledgable on shirtings. I can ask him to bring an Albini book, for example, but which one? All of them? -- next to impossible, Mr Ford will not give him *all* his books.

With scans being available, I might be able to choose a pattern or two I like, and ask my tailor to bring this particular book.

Andrey


----------



## Sator (Jan 13, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Trying to hold two pieces together and sew with any accuracy is harder than getting Jessica Alba out of her Zimmerli's.
> 
> ​


Only you could do it, Alex. Can we see pics of the end results please.


----------



## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

Alex
I could not feel the satin stripe on my screen.
the colors on my computer screen do not match the colors on my swatch card.

Many of you are missing the point. buying a custom made suit is not like buying a car. In some cases it can be just as expensive.
the Mills in most cases do not have the budgets for consumer branding. though this is changing.
In the old days. cloth merchants like Holland & sherry, Dormeuil, roger Laviale and scabal did some branding by way of design cards and swatch mailers. Rather then spend money on advertising, they preferred to put the fabric on the shelves of the tailors on consignment or give them extended dating.
It is alwasy nicer to see a full bolt of fabric then a small swatch book, Fashion TC might disagree.

the problem of the internet is that the customer now has knowledge of all sorts of obsure mills that may not have very wide distribution. I have had customers ask for Riva fabric. Well, Riva does not have a US agent nor do they make any effort to sell their fabric to US shirtmakers. Do I really want to spend the time and money to import some rather expensive fabric. no. i would much rather buy indiviidual shirt lengths from the local distributers of odd patterns then have to buy 15-30 meters and hope I can sell it later.

again, the cost of bespoke suits lends itself to very small distribution.
The high end mills would much rather sell full pieces to POLO purple label then sell 1 suit length per week to a bepoke tailor.

carl


----------



## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Shirtmaven said:


> Alex
> I could not feel the satin stripe on my screen.
> carl


Sorry Carl. I have the tech department working on that. Give me a decade or two and we'll figure something out.


----------



## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

WA said:


> I think Sato is right, because the end of the line is the customer.
> 
> This marketing that jsprowls9 is only good for the micky mouse club hippie generation that got manipulate for the first 40 years of their life. As markets change so the platforms need to change with the new market methods. As more people turn to bespoke those in the business of bespoke need to step to the plate.
> 
> ...


you are right about the CTDA. i was a member in the 50s in the membership were several hundred real custom tailors. there are only a few now. of the old members the only name i see is Phill Formaro in Detroit.


----------



## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

a tailor said:


> you are right about the CTDA. i was a member in the 50s in the membership were several hundred real custom tailors. there are only a few now. of the old members the only name i see is Phill Formaro in Detroit.


When I think about it the only place I can think of that a person can learn how to make finer clothes is from Tailor and Cutter or an apprentice somewhere. Tailor and Cutter is certainly not a five year apprenticeship- just basic pants, vest and a nice coat. They also have a class in fitting and another for cutting. There are two apprenticeships in the tailoring world- making and cutting & fitting. A five year program (apprenticeship) should teach a number of methods that tailors use, whereas, a class would basically be one method. If I were an employer I would certainly pay more attention to somebody who is wearing something he made that uses tailoring methods than somebody seeking an apprenticeship wearing somethings he didn't make or somethings he did make but not the way tailors do things, such as store bought patterns and fusing or other non tailor methods such as from a techschool, designer school. Techschool methods are good for absolute beginners who basically know nothing.

I don't see anything on CTDA's website about making clothes or patterns. All I see is some fitting and pattern changing classes.

Sure glad you post here at ask andy 'a tailor'. Wish there were lots more tailors that post here, too.


----------



## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Shirtmaven said:


> Alex
> I could not feel the satin stripe on my screen.
> the colors on my computer screen do not match the colors on my swatch card.
> 
> ...


Actually, I agree with you 100%, Shirtmaven.  I just forgot that seeing a full bolt of fabric can be done. I am sorry about that. I take it that seeing a full bolt of fabric (or full bolts of fabrics) can be done at the Manhattan offices for Holland and Sherry and Dormeuil.


----------



## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

Fashion TC said:


> Actually, I agree with you 100%, Shirtmaven.  I just forgot that seeing a full bolt of fabric can be done. I am sorry about that. I take it that seeing a full bolt of fabric (or full bolts of fabrics) can be done at the Manhattan offices for Holland and Sherry and Dormeuil.


I hate to disapoint you, but Holland and sherry and dormeuil will have fabric in their Manhattan offices, but you will not find 60 yard bolts of the entire range.
When I worked at Roger Laviale in 1981, the fabric was stock in the basement of 1290 ave of the americas. this used to be the building that housed the men's clothing showrooms. NYC real estate is way too expensive for fabric warehouses. If you want to see many bolts of fabric, go to Tip top,beckenstein, rosen and chaddick or B & J fabric

carl


----------



## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

Shirtmaven said:


> I hate to disapoint you, but Holland and sherry and dormeuil will have fabric in their Manhattan offices, but you will not find 60 yard bolts of the entire range.
> When I worked at Roger Laviale in 1981, the fabric was stock in the basement of 1290 ave of the americas. this used to be the building that housed the men's clothing showrooms. NYC real estate is way too expensive for fabric warehouses. If you want to see many bolts of fabric, go to Tip top,beckenstein, rosen and chaddick or B & J fabric
> 
> carl


In that case, whatever H&S and Dormeuil can provide me with to look at, but not to buy, as far as their fabrics are concerned, it will be sufficient, I suppose.

Of course, if the places that you mentioned above have end bolts of fabrics, are within driving range from where I live (St. James, NY on Long Island) and they also have end bolts of H&S and Dormeuil fabrics, I will go to one of those places you mentioned above that have end bolts of fabrics.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

medwards said:


> Why would that be? (he asks displaying his ignorance yet again  )





Alexander Kabbaz said:


> It is so slippery that water virtually beads up and rolls off. Trying to hold two pieces together and sew with any accuracy is harder than getting Jessica Alba out of her Zimmerli's.


Like "sewing melted butter as it runs down a stream?"


----------

