# Business Casual??



## 88 Pelican (Dec 8, 2008)

I have recently accepted a new position, and will be starting in a couple of weeks. During a conversation with a woman from HR today, I was disappointed to learn that the office is business casual.

I've been wearing a suit and tie everyday for 20 years, and I think it's appropriate for the office (financial services). More importantly, I like dressing in a suit, and would prefer to continue to do so.

That being said, do you think it is OK for me to wear my suits when the rest of the office is dressed more casually, or am I better off conforming to the rest of the office and dressing down. As much as I prefer to dress more professionally, I don't want to stand out too much in a negative way.


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## PeterW (May 14, 2004)

I'd find a nice middle road. I think suits are not a great idea in that environment.


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## Enron (Feb 16, 2010)

Indeed. Do not wear a suit in a business casual office. Never, ever.


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## Wisco (Dec 3, 2009)

I would disagree with Enron and PeterW. In my opinion, corporate dress codes are there to set a "floor" for what is acceptable dress, not the "ceiling". What do the senior managers wear? What do the client-facing folks wear? Point is, a suit may be perfectly acceptable in certain areas of the business.

Second, ask yourself what is the harm is in wearing a suit to this kind of office environment? I am the only one in my 30 person company who regularly wears a suit and tie or jacket and tie to work. I do it because I like to wear suits, I feel comfortable in them and because I believe it projects a professional image. One option would be to wear a suit without a tie. I don't personally care for that look, but our CEO does most days adding the tie when he meets with clients and investors.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

It's unfortunate that you may need to dumb it down for your surroundings but until you've established a rapport with the office it may be best for now.


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## Uncle Bill (May 4, 2010)

If you switched sectors from a very formal to a very informal office environment, don't be the ass who who wears a suit every day when the VP is showing up in Japanese Denim and Alden indy boots. Well pressed chinos or dress trousers along with a nice button down dress shirt paired with a navy blazer or sports jacket and leave the tie at home with well cared for bluchers or penny loafers works just nicely for 90% of the time.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

WouldaShoulda said:


> It's unfortunate that you may need to dumb it down for your surroundings but until you've established a rapport with the office it may be best for now.


At very least this is sage advice. After they've specifically told you their environment is business casual showing up in a suit is begging to be singled out.

Get a feel for things first.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

If you like suits, wear a suit the first day. Wear a suit everyday. You will find it hard to fit in with some groups, but so what? You're there to make money, not friends. Just make sure your work standards and output exceed everyone else's. Quickly you'll be seen as a hard charger. Some will dislike you, but your work will speak for itself.


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## Enron (Feb 16, 2010)

You know what being the new guy, and wearing a suit in a business casual environment means? It means that you desire attention, you are eagerly seeking the approval and respect of your boss and coworkers, and that you think that you are better than/more professional than everyone else in the office. You will look and smell like a YES MAN. That's probably not true of you, but that's how most everyone in your new office will see you. Make a good first impression. Eventually perhaps you can break out the suit after you've established yourself.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
...but alas, Lars4, in this instance and in this economy, going to work "suited and booted" might result in some degree of personal satisfaction but our middle aged Don Quixote might soon find himself to be a "Rebel Without A Job!" Last I heard, the financial services industry wasn't recruiting rebels.


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## KennethB (Jul 29, 2009)

I wear a tie a couple of days per week, and endure endless comments over it. But, I've been on this team for two years and am known as a capable producer.

I'd feel like a fish out of water in a suit - too bad, since I like wearing them. Just not to THIS office. 

Do you really want to be THAT guy?

My tuppence.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

I guess I will never understand this desire to wear a suit that many here profess. There is far more to dressing well and looking good than simply wearing a suit. 

Since I stopped wearing a coat and tie everyday and went full time business casual, I've been amazed at how many different ways one can look sharp at the office without wearing a suit. I now own more sport coats and sweaters than I've ever owned at one time in my life and I really like the many options available combining sport shirts with tweed jackets. I also re-discovered khakis and twill, and what can be done with them. 

I actually enjoy getting dressed for work much more than I ever did when I put on a suit every day. But that's just me and I understand that I'm in the minority here. :icon_smile:

Cruiser


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## tantive4 (Oct 2, 2007)

I was in the same boat as you are...except HR didn't let me know the dress code in advance.

My dress quickly went from a suit, to a tie and blazer, to a tie, to a OCBC, to chinos and a polo....especially after the CEO and a SVP both on different occasions made comments. I guess a rule of thumb would be "don't dress better than the CEO", as he didn't like that.

I currently work for an NGO, so I guess a relaxed business casual dress code is expected, the only problem is that I've conformed and I have noticed my level of dress had gone way down. I can get away with more "formal" dress in the winter, but not in the summer.


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## cumberlandpeal (May 12, 2006)

You mention that you are in financial services. That can mean a lot of different things, but I would begin with the idea of who is paying you and on what basis. If you have a large percentage of your income coming from commission work then I would wear a suit daily if it pleased me. I wear a suit about 75% of the time and the rest of the office appears to be on its way to or from a golf outing.


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

I'm with Cruiser, give the sport coat/blazer route a try. The juxtaposition of two men, one wearing a suit and the the other khakis and a polo is really severe. No matter how comfortable you are wearing a suit, chatting with the guy in a polo is going to make both of you uncomfortable.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> ...but alas, Lars4, in this instance and in this economy, going to work "suited and booted" might result in some degree of personal satisfaction but our middle aged Don Quixote might soon find himself to be a "Rebel Without A Job!" Last I heard, the financial services industry wasn't recruiting rebels.


One would be hard pressed to consider a professional in the financial services industry in Boston in a suit a rebel. This isn't Palo Alto.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

Charles Saturn said:


> I'm with Cruiser, give the sport coat/blazer route a try. The juxtaposition of two men, one wearing a suit and the the other khakis and a polo is really severe. No matter how comfortable you are wearing a suit, chatting with the guy in a polo is going to make both of you uncomfortable.


I also agree with Cruiser, and Saturn, and all who say that you will really be sending the wrong signal by being the "guy in the suit". I also have found that since going from a suit and tie every day to khakis, OCBD's and sport jackets with great footwear can be a lot of fun. You can actually develop your own "style" a bit easier than with a suit in some ways. Look at pictures of the (currently AWOL) "uncle" Mcarthur.


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## MidWestTrad (Aug 14, 2010)

I work for a large bank in the asset management business here in the mid-west. Our office, which is in the suburbs, has a stated dress code of "business appropriate." No wiggle room there, huh? Folks at our office dress across the board from suits to OBCD and khakis. I tend to rotate between suits, sport coat and tie and the OBCD and khakis, depending on my mood and what I have on the calendar that day.

I knew it was technically a business casual office when I took the job but still showed up first day in a suit. Stake out your own state of being.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

I agree with the "go along to get along" views here. You are trying to fit in in a particular environment: standing out puts the initial attention on your appearance and not your performance. It's one of those (perhaps idiot) things that stick in peoples' heads, whether it _should _or not.


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

Do not even think about wearing a suit in a business casual environment. Fit in at first, then feel out how accepting the place is of eccentricity. After you've established yourself, you might be able to go back to wearing a suit, and people will just consider it a charming aspect of your old-fashioned character. If you show up in a suit, however, you will not give a good first impression.


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## kanundra (Sep 3, 2010)

I'd say wear a shirt and tie, or shirt and jacket, but going full suit will segregate you out from the other employees. If you're comfortable with people gossiping as others have said, then go ahead.


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## heimskringla (Nov 2, 2008)

An odd jacket and tie probably wouldn't be too out of place.


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## CRMW (Nov 7, 2009)

I'm another one for the sports jacket probably without a tie and removed when you get to the office, in the described environment. If you really want to move back into suits, start slow, wear the jacket in the office, then add a tie occasionally, and then toss in a suit periodically.


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## De-Boj (Jul 5, 2009)

My father always told me "You are never wrong to show up in a suit If you are over dresses take off the coat, and if you are still overdressed take off the tie also." When I started at my current job in Feb of this year, I wore a suit on my first day. The office is way on the "casual" end of business casual, but as the new guy you are allowed to show up in a suit on your first day. 

This isn't rocket science here. Like my dad told me...if you fee out of place, you can take off your suit coat, and maybe even the tie. Be flexable.


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## CM Wolff (Jun 7, 2006)

De-Boj said:


> My father always told me "You are never wrong to show up in a suit If you are over dresses take off the coat, and if you are still overdressed take off the tie also." When I started at my current job in Feb of this year, I wore a suit on my first day. The office is way on the "casual" end of business casual, but as the new guy you are allowed to show up in a suit on your first day.
> 
> This isn't rocket science here. Like my dad told me...if you fee out of place, you can take off your suit coat, and maybe even the tie. Be flexable.


Seems like good advice if you are going somewhere where you are uncertain of the dress. However, knowing in advance that it is business casual and having a good idea what that represents, it seems like starting off in a suit will both waste effort and cause you to look like you just dressed down your suit. Much more in favor of easing into business casual with smart outfits and fitting in.


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## 88 Pelican (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks for the input - I think I'll show up Monday in a jacket without a tie, and see how it goes. If nothing else, it will give me an opportunity to go shopping for yet more clothes.

The funny part is, the day I visited the office, some of the senior executives from the main office in New York were visiting, so everyone was in a suit. I'm glad the HR rep told me this was not the norm.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Good luck on Monday. May your association with this office be a long, fulfilling and prosperous one! :thumbs-up:


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

One key point, which some others have at least touched on:

What "works" - not just in clothes, but lots of things - is different if everyone has known you for years vs. if you're a completely unknown new guy. If you make a practice of wearing a suit every day, you won't be "the guy with the clever ideas about biotech companies," or "the guy who plays tennis really well" or whatever, you'll be - perhaps eternally - "the guy who always wears a suit." Better than being called "Tuna," I suppose, but probably not by much.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

> You're there to make money, not friends. Just make sure your work standards and output exceed everyone else's. Quickly you'll be seen as a hard charger. Some will dislike you, but your work will speak for itself.


I'm hoping this was posted with a note of slightly rueful irony.

If not, you may be in for trouble.


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## oldschoolprep (Jun 21, 2007)

*Stay the Course - Go Trad*

Start wtih a totally Trad ensemble on day 1 - 3 button sack suit, ocbd, stripped repp wtih tassel loafers and adjust accordingly.

If the reaction is too hostile, I'd show up the next day in a 3 button sack blazer, pair of dark grey flannels, Alden full straps in burgundy calf or cordovan, white OCBD and a vintage Dartmouth Indian tie. Sit back, relax and know that 99.78% will never have the foggiest idea about the signficance of the tie!!! if you can't find one, PM me and I might be able to dig one up. As an alternative you can call Ben Silver to see if they still have them in stock or ring Paul Winston at Chipp to see if he has any of his infamous KMA ties lingering in inventory!

Good luck with your new career!


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## andcounting (Apr 7, 2009)

I second all who recommend dressing for the customer without pissing off the boss.


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## P Hudson (Jul 19, 2008)

I work in what I suppose is a business casual environment, but a couple of us will occasionally wear a suit. It helps that the other guy is also a world-class jazz musician who sets trends. 

My initial reaction to this thread was as follows: there is a big difference between the HR person saying, "we're business casual so that is what you really should wear" or "we're business casual: just thought you might like to know". I'd show up the first day in jacket and tie, get a sense of the place, and go from there.

It isn't difficult to dress a suit down if you need to. You can find casual suits, wear playful ties (or no tie), remove jackets, roll up sleeves, etc.

In response to why some people like to wear a suit, I find it easy and comfortable. A suit already matches 2 of the 5 basic elements in an outfit, making it possible to dress in the dark if you have a basic shirt selection.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Geez, I hate "business casual." It's so difficult. My dad wore a suit every day for his entire, very distinguished career, and couldn't have looked more casual.


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## Bradford (Dec 10, 2004)

Conform...

First impressions are key and maybe you can eventually transition back to the suit but until your new coworkers know you, you'll just come across as the stuffy guy in a suit.


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## Saltydog (Nov 3, 2007)

oldschoolprep said:


> Start wtih a totally Trad ensemble on day 1 - 3 button sack suit, ocbd, stripped repp wtih tassel loafers and adjust accordingly.
> 
> If the reaction is too hostile, I'd show up the next day in a 3 button sack blazer, pair of dark grey flannels, Alden full straps in burgundy calf or cordovan, white OCBD and a vintage Dartmouth Indian tie. Sit back, relax and know that 99.78% will never have the foggiest idea about the signficance of the tie!!! if you can't find one, PM me and I might be able to dig one up. As an alternative you can call Ben Silver to see if they still have them in stock or ring Paul Winston at Chipp to see if he has any of his infamous KMA ties lingering in inventory!
> 
> Good luck with your new career!


I come down on the side of doing exactly the opposite of oleschoolprep's approach--with all due respect. I would show up the first day dressed like everyone else and get to know everyone. Let them know you are one of them and get to know your new co-workers. Then feel your way--if you still want to--by introducing a sport jacket one day...or a tie. You may be able to slowly morph into the style you enjoy without too much controversy if you play it right. But. as I'm sure others have noted, you only get one chance to make a first impression. Overdressing could send all sorts of messages depending on the beholder. Personally, I think it's hard enough navigating a new enviornment with people who all already have a history with each other but don't know a thing about you. Why make it tougher to become a part of the team by setting yourself a part right from the beginning.

True story, I've been out of high school since 1967. I was talking to someone from my old school who I hadn't seen in years just the other day. The name of a certain student came up whom I couldn't recall. He said, "You know, he was really weird. He would actually wear a _suit_ to school and carry a briefcase. Everyone snickered behind his back and made snide comments about him."

Regardless of age or position, most of us are not as far from the school yard as we would like to think. We may be more tactful, secure and discreet. But the "odd duck" always stands out and gets talked about. Usually not in a flattering way. Human nature is to conform to the group. One may choose to be a rebel or eccentric--but there is a price to pay. It is hard enough to distinguish oneself in the workplace of today and the advantage often goes to people for all the wrong reasons. No one said life is fair...in fact the opposite sentiment is more likely to be expressed.

In his iconic book "Dress For Success" John Malloy made a point that many people missed. They thought of it as a fashion how to book. To the contrary, Malloy preseneted research and information on how to dress to get the most favorable impression in whatever enviornment you find yourself. He stated that people should, in fact, NOT remember your clothes. The idea is to dress like the people in whose company you would be so that your clothes were not a distraction from your personality and ideas.

Just ask yourself if it is worth very possibly handicapping yourself with a likely false image right from the start in today's competitive workplace. Perhaps entertainers, creative geniuses, scientists, academics and such can get away with being a touch out of step with the mainstream. In most places however...it just doesn't work--and can hurt. That's just the real world. Why swim against the tide just for a mode of dress. Choose your battles in the marketplace of ideas. There will be plenty of opportunity for that.


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## Coleman (Mar 18, 2009)

I say embrace it.

My office went business casual on me, and I fought it for a good long while. My coworkers already knew me, so it was largely met with kindness (although my ties did receive more than one threat of violence).

Use this as an excuse to buy all those sharp looking sport shirts you've never bothered to buy, because you'd never have had the chance to wear them. While your coworkers are wearing the same dress shirt and pants they would have worn with a coat and tie (which just looks oh so very odd), pull out the big guns of the sport shirt world. 

I for one have switched mostly to bright and/or rich tartans. Chinos for pants, pennies for shoes. Technically I'm the most casually dressed in the office anymore, but I look so much better put together you'd never come to that conclusion without actually thinking about it.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

You are probably better off to conform with the majority. You could possibly wear a coat and tie on your first day unless the HR person told you to be business casual without your asking first. After that, though, you don't want to be the one standing out. 

Maybe you can start dressing up a bit if you have client contact, or other reasons to. 

But, people can be really cruel to "outsiders" and you could damage your career in that company by not fitting in.


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

If you are a patient man, you can put a plan of action in place. Pick a level of business casual where you are well-dressed, but don't stand out. As you get to know people, start slowly upping the game, with a gradual increase in quality/formality of dress. You want to make slight changes, enough that people will notice, but not so much that they can't imagine themselves wearing something like what you're wearing. Make comments on others' attire, both positive and negative, with an eye toward influencing others to dress better. Leave upper-scale men's clothing catalogs around the office (but make sure your name isn't on them). Casually mention that such-and-such retailer is having a sale on this/that. You mentioned the executive visit, which forced everyone to dress up. Talk about that, and mention that other offices in the company dress more formally. 

The key is to do it as unobtrusively as possible, so that other people don't know they are being manipulated  If you do it right, in a year or so you'll have ignited a full-blown competition to see who can dress the best at work. I've seen it done before - at a place I worked, one guy maneuvered all but the most penurious into expensive Italian suits over the course of about 18 months.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

This has been hinted at, but here goes:

Take business casual to a higher level! I tell my business casual customers to make it their goal to take business casual and make it razor sharp. Instead of settling for cotton chinos, wear tailored wool trousers. I steer my guys toward custom shirts (our are from Skip Gambert) with distinctive features like hidden BD collars, etc., made up a little more casually with a deeper yoke, etc. Wear a jacket as much as possible (it's not hard to get away with jeans in a BC environment if you're wearing a dress shirt and jacket. Wear killer, polished shoes. Instead of a tie, buy some gorgeous print silk hankies and wear them in your jacket pocket. Business casual is (in my opinion) much more interesting and fun than wearing a suit every day.


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