# Upside of Income Inequality



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Education pays off...


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

On the flip side, I just read a report in Business Week this morning that IQ is uncorrelated with wealth. Although people w a high IQ did tend to earn more, this did not indicate that they would be any more likely to acquire wealth.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

JRR said:


> Education pays off...


Yes, I often wonder what if the Democrats realize that if their goals were achieved the Teacher's Union members would be out of work?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

_In 1980, an American with a college degree earned about 30 percent more than an American who stopped education at high school. But, in recent years, a person with a college educa­tion earned roughly 70 percent more. _

I know plenty of plumbers and ironworkers that would disagree. My wife's cousin is an ironworker in NYC, and he makes four times more than a NYC teacher would make.


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## mikeber (May 5, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> _In 1980, an American with a college degree earned about 30 percent more than an American who stopped education at high school. But, in recent years, a person with a college educa­tion earned roughly 70 percent more. _
> I know plenty of plumbers and ironworkers that would disagree. My wife's cousin is an ironworker in NYC, and he makes four times more than a NYC teacher would make.


These statistics are always misleading. There are many uneducated people in the US who make serious money. The statistics for example, ignore the many unemployed collage graduates. They don't count because they have no income. When someone plans to enter collage, they are more inclined to take high loans based on this misleading data. What happens to those who cannot find well paid jobs after graduation and still need to return all that money?
The reality is that jobs that are in high demand will mostly pay better then those in low demand, even for highly educated folks. High education by itself is no longer guarantee for finding a reasonable job.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

mikeber said:


> These statistics are always misleading. There are many uneducated people in the US who make serious money. The statistics for example, ignore the many unemployed collage graduates. They don't count because they have no income. When someone plans to enter collage, they are more inclined to take high loans based on this misleading data. What happens to those who cannot find well paid jobs after graduation and still need to return all that money?
> The reality is that jobs that are in high demand will mostly pay better then those in low demand, even for highly educated folks. High education by itself is no longer guarantee for finding a reasonable job.


This is true. It should be obvious, but... it isn't to a lot of people.

Though there are some interesting college/income graphs here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Generally, many white collar/cubeslave jobs now require degrees at the starting level, partly because there are so many college grads. They have higher incomes than people in jobs which don't require degrees, like people working in malls. However, I actually think most jobs could be done by people who undergo just training there, rather than by people who come to the table with a bachelor's degree.

Speaking of IQ, I believe it's illegal to use IQ tests for hiring purposes (unless you are the US military) so the college degree credentialization process just does this for employers. If you went to x college, it proves you are bright enough to gain entry and graduate. But you could just cut out the middleman (for most jobs - not professionals, obviously) and give people an hour-long test.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

So, how are things going lately??

Rich got richer in last 3 years, but no one else did

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/rich-got-richer-in-last-3-years-but-no-one-else-did-1.2756796

Thanks Obama!!


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## herfitup (Mar 4, 2012)

Laxplayer said:


> _In 1980, an American with a college degree earned about 30 percent more than an American who stopped education at high school. But, in recent years, a person with a college educa*tion earned roughly 70 percent more. _
> 
> I know plenty of plumbers and ironworkers that would disagree. My wife's cousin is an ironworker in NYC, and he makes four times more than a NYC teacher would make.





> Much of the widening gap in incomes reflects the rising payoff for a college education and other skills.


I would expect that would fall under other skills.

People laugh at me when I say wait until you see what a plumber will cost you in 2020.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Laxplayer said:


> _In 1980, an American with a college degree earned about 30 percent more than an American who stopped education at high school. But, in recent years, a person with a college educa­tion earned roughly 70 percent more. _
> 
> I know plenty of plumbers and ironworkers that would disagree. My wife's cousin is an ironworker in NYC, and he makes four times more than a NYC teacher would make.


The trades are a different animal. The problem with the trades is:

1) injury rates often limit the overall career
2) little upward mobility; a journeymen makes the same regardless of years of experience
3) very regional and very little mobility in terms of moving. Jobs can be seasonal and dependent on building and the overall economy. A journeymen electrician from Chicago can't just pick up and move to NYC or elsewhere for work if things slow down. The different locals are very tribal and don't like letting outsiders in.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

If you had to work at a prison, what would be the best job to have?

Plumber.

A few years ago, I had occasion to check annual salaries at the state prison department and plumbers stood out as being among the best paid. Several earned six figures, and they did not, presumably, have to have any contact with potentially dangerous inmates, who were likely kept elsewhere by lesser paid guards. Plumbers in the corrections system earned a bit less than prison administrators when I checked, but only a bit.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Why don't those $15/hr fast food protesters look like the kids that work in my fast food joint??

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fast-food-worker-strikes-arent-what-they-appear-to-be-2014-09-04

Americans today will see photos of fast-food worker demonstrations on national news and think the employees themselves are going on strike.

Americans will conclude that the demonstrations are a spontaneous display of employee dissatisfaction with wages. In fact, the strikes are being organized by unions and unelected worker centers that are desperate to attract new members, even at a cost of leaving millions of Americans unemployed.

Oh, THAT's why!!


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## NoahNY (Sep 2, 2014)

While_"education" _may pay off, you won't get too much of that in an American college today.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^I'm confused. :crazy:
Are we saying that American colleges are out of touch with the needs of industry, that they just don't educate students, period or that their graduates are simply not realizing the income differentials that used to distinguish college graduates from high school grads or even drop-outs?


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## NoahNY (Sep 2, 2014)

In a word, yes.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Given that I have an offspring who graduated from university ten years ago, colleges certainly were educating students very well at least that recently. I'd be surprised if things have changed *that* much since then.

I think what's happened is not the fault of colleges, but rather is the result of businesses no longer valuing a classical education, and expecting to hire new graduates directly from college with the skill set of a ten-year business veteran. American business is eating its seed corn to a large degree, expecting "someone else" to provide vocational training for them.

BTW, I myself do not have a classical education, being the graduate of engineering school at both the bachelor and master degree levels. But I greatly value the classical liberal education and wish more young people would (and could) pursue one.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

MaxBuck said:


> BTW, I myself do not have a classical education, being the graduate of engineering school at both the bachelor and master degree levels. But I greatly value the classical liberal education and wish more young people would (and could) pursue one.


Value??

Maybe.

But I'd read a compare and contrast YOU wrote, before I drove over a bridge THEY engineered!!


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

WouldaShoulda said:


> But I'd read a compare and contrast YOU wrote, before I drove over a bridge THEY engineered!!


Given that I'm a chemical engineer, you ought to prefer reading my compare and contrast to driving over a bridge that *I* engineered. :tongue2:


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## NoahNY (Sep 2, 2014)

_*"I'd be surprised if things have changed **that much since then."
*_
Then I hope you like surprises.

And, btw, unless you were residing with your offspring while s/he was in college I sincerely doubt you know more than a scintilla of the reality s/he actually experienced during those four years. Why not suit yourself and request a 2014-2015 curriculum guide from that same college *NOT* for incoming freshman, but rather for sophomores, juniors and seniors and see for yourself? You should also read their current Code of Student Conduct. *Warning*; grab a chair and your Digitalis before you begin reading.


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

If I may speak as a recent university graduate, most of my friends who are doing well are those who approached higher education practically. To be specific, these acquaintances received degrees in the fields which led to a specific field, e.g. nursing or engineering.

However, those who obtained liberal arts or business degrees were also able to make careers for themselves _assuming_ they also sought out work experience while attending university. It isn't unusual to be promoted into management upon graduation if one proved himself as a competent student worker. I have seen this play out in banking, business, education, and academia.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

universitystripe said:


> I have seen this play out in banking, business, education, and academia.


...and insurance.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^^
...and if the student in question elects to complete a few credits of ROTC courses and completes a four to six week summer encampment over the four year period they are completing their degree(s), they can receive their diploma(s) and a commission as a Second Lieutenant and be looking at a career in the service of their Country, all on the same day.


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## NoahNY (Sep 2, 2014)

As a recent grad yourself, how on earth can you assert that any of your "friends" has made a "career" for themselves yet? Perhaps they're employed, and perhaps even full time. However, being employed as a recent college grad is not tantamount to being careered. Come back in 20 years and then make claims as to who made or didn't make a "career" for himself, _and_ _why._


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

At 50, and having worked in two industries and for almost ten companies, my experience is that there is truth in two ideas averred above that seem to compete but that really compliment. It is almost axiomatic that if you go to college with the goal of getting educated in a specific way for a specific career path in a specific field, you will probably have a better chance at landing a job out of college than will a traditional liberal ed graduate. An accounting major normally finds a job easier than and English major with a minor in History.

But as one moves along in ones career, the value of that liberal education increases. Early on in a career, one will be learning the specifics of the job and field especially as most entry level jobs are task based, not thought based. This is why accounting and engineering grads, for example, can get their first jobs easier than liberal arts grads - they have some of that specific knowledge and there are entry level jobs that they easily fit into. 

However, as one advances into more experienced roles, the skills needed to succeed become more broad based - can you connect big-picture ideas, can you mange multiple personality, can you spot social and cultural changes, can you present your ideas in intelligent ways to small and large audiences, can you build cogent arguments (where references to historical and literary examples can help). These are all skills that a liberal arts education should have helped you developed. 

Hence, I think it is not so much that specific training is or is not "better" than liberal arts education - it is just that they will serve different ends and help one at different times in ones career. I was a liberal arts major who struggled to find a job in the soft economy I graduated into. I also saw my friends with specific training find jobs easier and those jobs paid meaningfully more than the one that I got. But as I progressed, I was able to draw on the broad-based knowledge, familiarity with abstract reasoning and historical and cultural patterns that I learned as a liberal arts graduate. For me, that was more valuable than an easier start would have been. For someone else, I'm sure they feel the opposite, but I am not arguing one over the other - they both have value, it is just different value.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Fading Fast said:


> Hence, I think it is not so much that specific training is or is not "better" than liberal arts education - it is just that they will serve different ends and help one at different times in ones career. I was a liberal arts major who struggled to find a job in the soft economy I graduated into. I also saw my friends with specific training find jobs easier and those jobs paid meaningfully more than the one that I got. But as I progressed, I was able to draw on the broad-based knowledge, familiarity with abstract reasoning and historical and cultural patterns that I learned as a liberal arts graduate. For me, that was more valuable than an easier start would have been. For someone else, I'm sure they feel the opposite, but I am not arguing one over the other - they both have value, it is just different value.


How can you assert that one is not better than the other, give specific examples of how it is indeed better, and concluded that the difference you describe is not an example of one path being better than the other??


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

WouldaShoulda said:


> How can you assert that one is not better than the other, give specific examples of how it is indeed better, and concluded that the difference you describe is not an example of one path being better than the other??


If a person wants a faster entry into a specific field, then a targeted education seems a good path for that person. If, instead, a person is willing to spend more time finding his or her career and path after college (and probably start at lower pay), but have a broader base of knowledge to draw on later in that career, then a liberal arts education is probably right for him or her.

It isn't obvious to me that one type of education path is better than the other; they just offer different pluses and minuses that each individual will have to choose which one is better for him or her.

For example, I had a friend in college who knew he wanted to be an accountant and he focused on accounting, economic and finance courses in college (not liberal arts) and came right out of school into a good-for-the-time accounting job (and he had several firms to choose from).

I, on the other hand, struggled to find my first job, started at a 30% less pay than he did, but believe my broader education helped me later in my career.

It sincerely isn't obvious to me which one is the "right" choice; it seems that the choice is individually based on each person's specifics wants and needs.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Is it fair to say then, that some people just don't know what is best for them??

In the most non judgmental way possible, that is!!


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Is it fair to say then, that some people just don't know what is best for them??
> 
> In the most non judgmental way possible, that is!!


Many college kids don't because they haven't lived long enough / been exposed to enough of life to know. How many kids at 18 or 19, when they are making their decisions about college and majors, really know what path in life / career is going to work out for them? All I knew was that I didn't know and that I was enjoying taking courses in many disciplines (education was not highly valued in my house growing up and college was a revelation for me).

A liberal arts education turned out right for me, but I wasn't making a decision then as much as not making one (i.e., I couldn't commit to a career path in college, so I turned to liberal arts). Other college kids - pre-med, those who wanted to be lawyers or engineers - seemed to know and picked colleges and majors that geared them for those careers.

I am now old enough that friends' children will occasionally ask my advice on this and I have no real answer. I tell them what worked for me (I would not swap my liberal arts education for anything), but if they believe they have a passion and want to start on a path toward a career in that passion, then that sounds right to me. My best friend's son wants to be a physical therapist and chose a college for that career - will this work out? I have no idea but how would you guide him not to pursue that path if he seems genuine in his interest and passion?

I am not being wishy washy - I have rarely been accused of that - but this is one where I believe the answer is both hard to know in advance and is individually based.


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## herfitup (Mar 4, 2012)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Is it fair to say then, that some people just don't know what is best for them??
> 
> In the most non judgmental way possible, that is!!


Maybe. I did a business degree at a liberal arts college because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I finally ended up in business software and the mixed education really worked out well for me.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

herfitup said:


> Maybe. I did a business degree at a liberal arts college because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I finally ended up in business software and the mixed education really worked out well for me.


Dare we say "better" than had you received a liberal arts degree alone??


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

Or better than a business degree alone?
My nephew did the first year of one, at a reasonably good university and found it pointless, he left after that year worked in retail for a year then read civil engineering instead. Worked in civil engineering for a year and now works for Morgan Stanley earning a fortune, hired on the basis of his civil engineering degree and his year working in retail. His interviewer told him that they thought business qualifications worthless.


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## herfitup (Mar 4, 2012)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Dare we say "better" than had you received a liberal arts degree alone??





Chouan said:


> Or better than a business degree alone?
> My nephew did the first year of one, at a reasonably good university and found it pointless, he left after that year worked in retail for a year then read civil engineering instead. Worked in civil engineering for a year and now works for Morgan Stanley earning a fortune, hired on the basis of his civil engineering degree and his year working in retail. His interviewer told him that they thought business qualifications worthless.


I'd say yes, better than a business degree from a business specialty school. You weren't allowed to take more than 1 or 2 business courses before your junior year. And because it was a liberal arts school the choices in electives were much broader. I remember a philosophy course in logic that really helped later. And because it had religious connection they were one of the first schools to make an ethics course mandatory for business majors.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

The nation's wealth recovers, but largely for those at the top

By Richard FryLeave a comment
The nation's aggregate wealth continued to show signs of recovery, ascending to $81.5 trillion as of June 30, after bottoming out at $55 trillion in 2009, according to a released Thursday.


The Fed's aggregate wealth figures, which measure the total net worth of all U.S. households and nonprofits, suggest that inflation-adjusted wealth per household has significantly increased since 2009 (roughly growing 29%) and has surpassed its pre-Recession peak. (The chart to the right does not show these figures adjusted for inflation or number of households.) But as other economic reports and indicators suggest, that wealth recovery has been concentrated on the wealthiest Americans. Although there is some evidence that those at the bottom are also seeing an economic lift, the aggregate net worth for America's economic middle is actually declining. In August, the Census Bureau released that imply that the minimum wealth level needed to qualify for the wealthiest 1% of American households increased from $2.3 million in 2009 to $2.4 million in 2011. That in itself indicates there were wealth gains at the very top of the wealth distribution. On the other hand, the minimum wealth level needed to be in the wealthiest 4% of households fell from 2009 to 2011, from which one infers that wealth declined for households at the wealthiest 4% level.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...th-recovers-but-largely-for-those-at-the-top/

Thanks, Obama!!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

*Democrats, in a stark shift in messaging, to make big tax-break pitch for middle class*

Hahahahahahah!!

Now that they can't possibly get this exciting and bold "inaction" plan passed.

Next to last paragraph of article...



> He also calls for imposing a 0.1 percent fee on stock trades, an idea under consideration by the European Union. That proposal would raise as much as $800 billion over the next decade, primarily from high-volume traders, Van Hollen said.


Oh, lookie, a brand new tax!!

Thanks for nothing, Obama!!


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## ChrisRS (Sep 22, 2014)

Not the only new proposed tax:


Republicans in control and the new tax proposals just keep coming. I love a good political showdown.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

It's a tactic as old as politics. When in trouble, demagogue!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

ChrisRS said:


> Not the only new proposed tax:
> 
> Republicans in control and the new tax proposals just keep coming. I love a good political showdown.





> "While there is not much stomach for increasing fuel taxes in an election year, motorists have said in numerous polls that they would be willing to pay higher fees to support road infrastructure *if they know where the money is going*," Jones said. "That means spending it on road construction and repairs."


Just like that Social Security box with my name on it??


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