# Cartoons...



## marsh (Jan 13, 2005)

What do the fine minds of AAAC make of the current events relating to the publishing of these cartoons and the response.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Here's a call for more, not less, blasphemy from the WashPost:





Particularly interesting is the age of these cartoons, long-forgotten until somebody decided to stir it up.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I think its a perfect comparison of the West vs the Middle East.

It's a blasphemy and breaks one of the 10 Commandments to make a depiction of the Christian God. But Westerners don't burn flags. fill the streets, and storm embassies when someone does.

Even though some of these cartoons have been around since October, more newspapers are printing it now (most recently in New Zealand I think). We'll see how that works out. 

The Vatican said these cartoons just provoke controversy and shouldn't be run. They haven't made a statement about burning the Danish flag which has a cross on it though.

At least Americans don't have anything to worry about, because they already hate us!

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Beware of showroom sales-fever reasoning: i.e., "for $20 . . ." Once you're home, how little you paid is forgotten; how good you look in it is all that matters.


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> It's a blasphemy and breaks one of the 10 Commandments to make a depiction of the Christian God. But Westerners don't burn flags. fill the streets, and storm embassies when someone does.


Once upon a time they did: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm

Sample:

_The bishops finally elected a successor to the vacant see of Constantinople, Constantine, bishop of Sylaeum (Constantine II, 754-66), who was of course a creature of the Government, prepared to carry on its campaign. The decrees were published in the Forum on 27 August, 754. After this the destruction of pictures went on with renewed zeal. All the bishops of the empire were required to sign the Acts of the synod and to swear to do away with icons in their dioceses. The Paulicians were now treated well, while image-worshippers and monks were fiercely persecuted. Instead of paintings of saints the churches were decorated with pictures of flowers, fruit, and birds, so that the people said that they looked like grocery stores and bird shops. A monk Peter was scourged to death on 7 June, 761; the Abbot of Monagria, John, who refused to trample on an icon, was tied up in a sack and thrown into the sea on 7 June, 761; in 767 Andrew, a Cretan monk, was flogged and lacerated till he died (see the Acta SS., 8 Oct.; Roman Martyrology for 17 Oct.); in November of the same year a great number of monks were tortured to death in various ways (Martyrology, 28 Nov.). The emperor tried to abolish monasticism (as the centre of the defence of images); monasteries were turned into barracks; the monastic habit was forbidden; the patriarch Constantine II was made to swear in the ambo of his church that although formerly a monk, he had now joined the secular clergy. Relics were dug up and thrown into the sea, the invocation of saints forbidden. In 766 the emperor fell foul of his patriarch, had him scourged and beheaded and replaced by Nicetas I (766-80), who was, naturally also an obedient servant of the Iconoclast Government._


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

From the Canadian Free Press



> quote:So, letâ€™s see if I get this right. Saw off a guyâ€™s head on TV with a long knife --excellent. Show a sobbing kidnapped woman on TV and threaten to kill her--fine. Chop off a few heads in the square--neato. Bury a few thousand folks in a mass grave--delightful. Use poison gas on indigenous people--a simple demonstration of power. March through town with missiles on the way to slaughter the unfortunate--just great. Threaten to destroy Israel-- terrific. Read a few verses from the Qâ€™uran on TV then blow up a bus of commuters--a martyrdom operation and all part and parcel of the good book. Raise your children to kill the Infidels, unbelievers and apostates--a wise and beautiful choice. See all of this day after day--no complaints from the imams.
> 
> But print a few cartoons in the local paper--a horrifying and unnerving experience and one that must be stamped out by using what ever means, coalitions and forces necessary by the same imams, with no humor at all.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Groups of people with thin skins and persecution complexes are fun to poke fun at!

DD


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> Groups of people with thin skins and persecution complexes are fun to poke fun at!
> 
> DD


Untill they have nuclear weapons!


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> Untill they have nuclear weapons!


We have more. And we are a lot meaner, when it comes right down to it.

DD


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> From the Canadian Free Press
> 
> ...


Well written. I give major kudos to the Jordanian editors who printed the cartoons there. Testicular fortitude.

CT


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by marsh_
> 
> What do the fine minds of AAAC make of the current events relating to the publishing of these cartoons and the response.


The response was predictable. Here is an example of media deliberately, cynically, but very successfully making news.
Logically, the editors that thought this one up deserve promotion for boosting sales, not sacking for offending people who don't buy their papers anyway. It'll be interesting to see how this develops. Could be that newspaper sales will be boosted even further soon.

Ed: editorial in today's Daily Telegraph (UK)


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## mgnov (Jan 11, 2006)

"Westerners don't burn flags, fill the streets, and storm embassies..."

Except, of course, when they lose football matches.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> Here is an example of media deliberately, cynically, but very successfully making news.


And today's front page story from the NYT all the heads of middle-eastern governments met in Mecca last December and discussed the cartoons - sort of makes you wonder what they've been doing the last few months since they've found out.


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## marsh (Jan 13, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My father used to tell me that when I had grown up a bit and was more wise, I would not see things as black and white. I doubt I have achieved the latter, but nonetheless I see infinite shades of grey these days.

I was very interested to learn yesterday that the initial newspaper in Denmark is a right wing Christian paper that had earlier last year refused to publish a cartoon of the resurrection of Jesus Christ for fear it might cause 'an uproar'.

A comparison was made by one comentator to cinemas being burnt down in various western countries (yours might be one) for showing the last temptation of christ in the early 90's. Some fatalities occured.

I am still baffled by the volatile response, though pockets of stupidity were entertaining, especially the drug dealer out on parole in the UK who managed through sheer empty-headedness to put himself back in jail by dressing as a suicide bomber..... what an idiot.


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## Aus_MD (Nov 2, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by marsh_
> I was very interested to learn yesterday that the initial newspaper in Denmark is a right wing Christian paper that had earlier last year refused to publish a cartoon of the resurrection of Jesus Christ for fear it might cause 'an uproar'.
> 
> A comparison was made by one comentator to cinemas being burnt down in various western countries (yours might be one) for showing the last temptation of christ in the early 90's. Some fatalities occured.


Surely you don't get Phillip Adams & Robert Fisk in Kenya????

Aus_MD


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by marsh_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't find any references to cinamas being burned in the west as a reaction to last temptation.

I saw a reference the other day, by a muslim, to the fact that NBC was fined $2.5 million when Sinaed Oconner tore up the picture of the pope on SNL. that also turned out to be false.

what is happening is that the muslims are starting to get a little embarressed at all this violence over the cartoons, and they are trying to show how everybody else is just as crazy as they are.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> 
> what is happening is that the muslims are starting to get a little embarressed at all this violence over the cartoons, and they are trying to show how everybody else is just as crazy as they are.


I think this is right. As I said, the violent response doesn't surprise me, but the result was that muslims (governments, extreme militants, clerics, etc.) were in effect trapped into taking a ridiculously disproportionate public position on this affair, which is becoming embarrassing - and even somewhat humiliating.

Interesting too that there were highly vocal demonstrations in London even though Blair and most of the British press more or less condemned the cartoons, on the grounds of respect for other peoples' beliefs, while in France things have so far been very quiet, despite publication of cartoons in several newspapers and the generally rather unsympathetic (and somewhat anticlerical) position of the political class.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

There an article in the LA Times https://www.latimes.com/news/nation...9feb09,0,2192905.story?coll=la-home-headlines which has an interesting quote from a Dane.

"A lot of Danes have problems understanding what is going on and why people in those countries reacted this way," said Morton Rixen, a philosophy student, looking out his window at a city awhirl in angst and snow. "We're used to seeing American flags and pictures of George Bush being burned, but we've always seen ourselves as a more tolerant nation. We're in shock to now be in the center of this."

I don't think they understand, yet. This doesn't have anything to do with Denmark being tolerant. It's about (some percentage of) the Muslim world _not_ being tolerant. The only thing that will make them happy is if we all convert to Islam and live by their rules. Another quote from the article:

"Nobody listened to us," said Akkari, a spokesman for 27 Muslim organizations. "We are not saying censorship of the pressâ€¦. But there must be limits on the freedom of speech when dealing with some things."

Um, and how does government imposed limits on speech differ from censorship? And this is a guy who has lived in Denmark his whole life.

CT


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

The paper in Denmark orginally called for a contest of sorts on the issue due to the fact that a recent childrens book preaching tolerance towards Islam was summarily unpublished because the author could not find an artist to provide the imagery given the Theo Van Gogh fiasco. They were testing the market to see if fear of reprisal had war the day over freedom of expression, they should be commended.

The cartoons were orginally published in Sept. and republished in places like Egypt the following month during Ramadan. Soon after radicalized elements with the help of ME gov'ts began a disinformation campaign involving the cartoons and three others that were a lot more insidious. What followed was the manufactured outrage we see today. And what we see in US media, especially at places like CNN, is an almost dhimmitude response to what should be a glowing example of the power of freedom of press.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## marsh (Jan 13, 2005)

> quote:
> 
> I can't find any references to cinamas being burned in the west as a reaction to last temptation.


I can't either. Though the commentator was Robert Fisk, who is pretty credible. He said he saw the movie in Paris, where the week previously one had been burnt, and went on to detail some similar incidents.... can't vouch for it, but I believe it.

I was also amazed, by the way, that I beleive I read the only arrest in London were of a 'counter protester' handing out the cartoons... his charge 'disturbing the peace'..


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:
> "A lot of Danes have problems understanding what is going on and why people in those countries reacted this way," said Morton Rixen, a philosophy student, looking out his window at a city awhirl in angst and snow. "We're used to seeing American flags and pictures of George Bush being burned, but we've always seen ourselves as a more tolerant nation. We're in shock to now be in the center of this."


Wisdom comes suddenly, doesn't it Morton?

We've heard this kind of response out of parts of Europe before and more than likely when the sh_t hits the fan we'll be there to clean up the mess. Just give them another 50 years and they'll be burning our flag again in the streets, like undisciplined teenagers that can't see the forest from the trees.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Whnay, I cannot even begin to explain how offensive, inappropriate and plainly false I find your comment. Therefore, I will not try to go into a detailed argument.


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## marsh (Jan 13, 2005)

> quote:
> Surely you don't get Phillip Adams & Robert Fisk in Kenya????
> 
> Aus_MD


A bit creepy?

A wonderful thing called podcasting.. I listen to LNL a few hours after you!

Satellite TV delivers the cricket too.

Sadly, visits to the tailor and watch seller suffer!


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:I can't either. Though the commentator was Robert Fisk, who is pretty credible. He said he saw the movie in Paris, where the week previously one had been burnt, and went on to detail some similar incidents.... can't vouch for it, but I believe it.
> 
> I was also amazed, by the way, that I beleive I read the only arrest in London were of a 'counter protester' handing out the cartoons... his charge 'disturbing the peace'..


With all due respect, Robert Fisk is a leftist hack of the first order, hardly a man to be fully trusted as many of the moderate left like Sy Hersh and others. He's about as Anti-Western as any journalist in the western hemisphere, give or take a few. His infamous beating by the hands of Afghan refugees has been dubbed "Fisking" due to his apologist reponse when he refused to hold the refugees morally culpable for their attack.

You shouldn't be amazed at the lone arrest, tolerance of the intolerant is all the rage.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

this whole episode strikes me as similar to a lot of issues in middle east - west relationships. 

to the muslims, this is about justice - muhamed was descecrated, and the just thing to do is to burn buildings and punish those involved. and if governments of the west don't want to provide justice - to punish those involved, then the muslims will have to punish everyone until justice is served. 

notice the arab goverments attitude - they suggest that these riots are perfectly normal, and to be expected, and they couldn't possibly try to stop them or control them. that something like protecting a guest embassy is not aywhere near as important as allowing people to exersize their right to justice - to burn and riot. 

this is similar to the arab governments attitude, often, to terror. the idea is that it is perfectly normal for people to want to carry out terror attacks, and that the government can't be expected to control it.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Ã‰tienne_
> 
> Whnay, I cannot even begin to explain how offensive, inappropriate and plainly false I find your comment. Therefore, I will not try to go into a detailed argument.


Do you find it more or less offensive than the manufactured outrage and criminality out of the Moslem community in Europe and the Middle East? Or more or less offensive than the pathetic response to the manufactured outrage from the European press and their respective governments?

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## marsh (Jan 13, 2005)

Globetrotter - the balance of your posts reflects your handle.

I seriously doubt American flags will be burnt in high volumes in 50 years, in line with reduced global influence. I read an article in Saturdays FT (the Editorial policy of which I expect to be informed on this board), where Mr. Rumsfeld said the projections of his long-range think-tank gets very hazy after a few years...


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Et, I will say my comments weren't made to be offensive in the first place and if they were I offer you my sincere apology. 

Its my belief that the entire civlized world needs to come to the defense of the Danes on this issue, they are by no stretch the most generous nation in the world. In fact, if I'm not mistaken they are the most generous with aid per capita than any other nation recoginzed by the IMF. I hope we are all up to task, our media gives me little hope.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## johnapril (Feb 8, 2006)

At Mecca Meeting, Cartoon Outrage Crystallized By HASSAN M. FATTAH
Published: February 9, 2006

BEIRUT, Lebanon, Feb. 8 â€” As leaders of the world's 57 Muslim nations gathered for a summit meeting in Mecca in December, issues like religious extremism dominated the official agenda. But much of the talk in the hallways was of a wholly different issue: Danish cartoons satirizing the Prophet Muhammad.

The closing communiquÃ© took note of the issue when it expressed "concern at rising hatred against Islam and Muslims and condemned the recent incident of desecration of the image of the Holy Prophet Muhammad in the media of certain countries" as well as over "using the freedom of expression as a pretext to defame religions." 

The meeting in Mecca, a Saudi city from which non-Muslims are barred, drew minimal international press coverage even though such leaders as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran were in attendance. But on the road from quiet outrage in a small Muslim community in northern Europe to a set of international brush fires, the summit meeting of the Organization of the Islamic Conference â€” and the role its member governments played in the outrage â€” was something of a turning point. 

After that meeting, anger at the Danish caricatures, especially at an official government level, became more public. In some countries, like Syria and Iran, that meant heavy press coverage in official news media and virtual government approval of demonstrations that ended with Danish embassies in flames.

In recent days, some governments in Muslim countries have tried to calm the rage, worried by the increasing level of violence and deaths in some cases. 

But the pressure began building as early as October, when Danish Islamists were lobbying Arab ambassadors and Arab ambassadors lobbied Arab governments. 

"It was no big deal until the Islamic conference when the O.I.C. took a stance against it," said Muhammad el-Sayed Said, deputy director of the Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo.

Sari Hanafi, an associate professor at the American University in Beirut, said that for Arab governments resentful of the Western push for democracy, the protests presented an opportunity to undercut the appeal of the West to Arab citizens. The freedom pushed by the West, they seemed to say, brought with it disrespect for Islam. 

He said the demonstrations "started as a visceral reaction â€” of course they were offended â€” and then you had regimes taking advantage saying, 'Look, this is the democracy they're talking about.' "

The protests also allowed governments to outflank a growing challenge from Islamic opposition movements by defending Islam.

At first, the agitation was limited to Denmark. Ahmed Akkari, 28, a Lebanese-born Dane, acts as spokesman for the European Committee for Honoring the Prophet, an umbrella group of 27 Danish Muslim organizations to press the Danish government into action over the cartoons.

Mr. Akkari said the group had worked for more than two months in Denmark without eliciting any response. "We collected 17,000 signatures and delivered them to the office of the prime minister, we saw the minister of culture, we talked to the editor of the Jyllands-Posten, we took many steps within Denmark, but could get no action," Mr. Akkari said, referring to the newspaper that published the cartoons. He added that the prime minister's office had not even responded to the petition.

Frustrated, he said, the group turned to the ambassadors of Muslim countries in Denmark and asked them to speak to the prime minister on their behalf. He refused them too.
"Then the case moved to a new stage," Mr. Akkari recalled. "We decided then that to be heard, it must come from influential people in the Muslim world."

The group put together a 43-page dossier, including the offending cartoons and three more shocking images that had been sent to Danish Muslims who had spoken out against the Jyllands-Posten cartoons.

Mr. Akkari denied that the three other offending images had contributed to the violent reaction, saying the images, received in the mail by Muslims who had complained about the cartoons, were included to show the response that Muslims got when they spoke out in Denmark. 

In early December, the group's first delegation of Danish Muslims flew to Cairo, where they met with the grand mufti, Muhammad Sayid Tantawy, Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit and Amr Moussa, the head of the Arab League.

"After that, there was a certain response," Mr. Akkari said, adding that the Cairo government and the Arab League both summoned the Danish ambassador to Egypt for talks.

Mr. Akkari denies that the group had meant to misinform, but concedes that there were misunderstandings along the way.

In Cairo, for example, the group also met with journalists from Egypt's media. During a news conference, they spoke about a proposal from the far-right Danish People's Party to ban the Koran in Denmark because of some 200 verses that are alleged to encourage violence. 

Several newspapers then ran articles claiming that Denmark planned to issue a censored version of the Koran. The delegation returned to Denmark, but the dossier continued to make waves in the Middle East. Egypt's foreign minister had taken the dossier with him to the Mecca meeting, where he showed it around. The Danish group also sent a second delegation to Lebanon to meet religious and political leaders there.

Mr. Akkari went on that trip. The delegation met with the grand mufti in Lebanon, Muhammad Rashid Kabbani, and the spiritual head of Lebanon's Shiite Muslims, Sheik Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, as well as the patriarch of the Maronite Church, Nasrallah Sfeir. The group also appeared on Hezbollah's satellite station Al Manar TV, which is seen throughout the Arab world.

Mr. Akkari also made a side trip to Damascus, Syria, to deliver a copy of the dossier to that country's grand mufti, Sheik Ahmed Badr-Eddine Hassoun.

Lebanon's foreign minister, Fawzi Salloukh, says he agreed to meet in mid-December with Egypt's ambassador to Lebanon, who presented him with a letter from his foreign minister, Aboul Gheit, urging him to get involved in the issue. Attached to the letter were copies of some of the drawings. 

At the end of December, the pace picked up as talk of a boycott became more prominent. The Islamic Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, comprising more than 50 states, published on its Web site a statement condemning "the aggressive campaign waged against Islam and its Prophet" by Jyllands-Posten, and officials of the organization said member nations should impose a boycott on Denmark until an apology was offered for the drawings.

"We encourage the organization's members to boycott Denmark both economically and politically until Denmark presents an official apology for the drawings that have offended the world's Muslims," said Abdulaziz Othman al-Twaijri, the organization's secretary general. 

In a few weeks, the Jordanian Parliament condemned the cartoons, as had several other Arab governments.

On Jan. 10, as anti-Danish pressure built, a Norwegian newspaper republished the caricatures in an act of solidarity with the Danes, leading many Muslims to believe that a real campaign against them had begun.

On Jan. 26, in a key move, Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador to Denmark, and Libya followed suit. Saudi clerics began sounding the call for a boycott, and within a day, most Danish products were pulled off supermarket shelves.

"The Saudis did this because they have to score against Islamic fundamentalists," said Mr. Said, the Cairo political scientist. "Syria made an even worse miscalculation," he added, alluding to the sense that the protest had gotten out of hand. The issue of the cartoons came at a critical time in the Muslim world because of Muslim anger over the occupation of Iraq and a sense that Muslims were under siege. Strong showings by Islamists in elections in Egypt and the victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections had given new momentum to Islamic movements in the region, and many economies, especially those in the Persian Gulf, realized their economic power as it pertained to Denmark. 

"The cartoons were a fuse that lit a bigger fire," said Rami Khouri, editor at large at the English-language Daily Star of Beirut. "It is this deepening sense of vulnerability combines with a sense that the Islamists were on a roll that made it happen."

The wave swept many in the region. Sheik Muhammad Abu Zaid, an imam from the Lebanese town of Saida, said he began hearing of the caricatures from several Palestinian friends visiting from Denmark in December but made little of it.

"For me, honestly, this didn't seem so important," Sheik Abu Zaid said, comparing the drawings to those made of Jesus in Christian countries. "I thought, I know that this is something typical in such countries." 

Then, he started to hear that ambassadors of Arab countries had tried to meet with the prime minister of Denmark and had been snubbed, and he began to feel differently.
"It started to seem that this way of thinking was an insult to us," he said. "It is fine to say, 'This is our freedom, this is our way of thinking.' But we began to believe that their freedom was something that hurts us."

Last week, Sheik Abu Zaid heard about a march being planned on the Danish Consulate in Beirut, and he decided to join. He and 600 others boarded buses bound for Beirut. 

Within an hour of arriving, some of the demonstrators â€” none of his people, he insisted â€” became violent, and began attacking the building that housed the embassy. It was just two days after a similar attack against the Danish and Norwegian Embassies in Damascus.

"In the demonstration, I believe 99 percent of the people were good and peaceful, but I could hear people saying, 'We don't want to demonstrate peacefully; we want to burn,' " the sheik said.

He tried in vain to calm people down, he said. "I was calling to the people, 'Please, please follow us and go back.' " he said. "We were hoping to calm people down, and we were hoping to help the peaceful people who were caught in the middle of the fight."


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## FlatSix (Feb 23, 2005)

I call on all AAAC members to either go outside and shoot an Islamist or purchase a new pair of American/European-made shoes today, whichever suits their conscience.



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"When you wear something like spats, I think you might as well wear your favorite players jersey bc what youre saying is I want to be powerful like the bear and Im wearing its hide to tap into its power." - Film Noir Buff

"First sense of what "normal" good clothes looked like came from my dad, of course, and from Babar books." - Concordia

" I have a related problem in that I often have to chase people. Leather soles are no good for this kind of work." - Patrick06790


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
> Do you find it more or less offensive than the manufactured outrage and criminality out of the Moslem community in Europe and the Middle East? Or more or less offensive than the pathetic response to the manufactured outrage from the European press and their respective governments?


I don't see what you find pathetic about the response of the press. The numerous journals all over Europe that reproduced the cartoons, such as Charlie Hebdo yesterday in France, were doing the right thing in my opinion.

You made an inappropriate, false and insulting Europe-bashing comment. I don't see how my pointing that is in any way lessening the outrage I feel regarding the Muslim world reaction to the cartoons. Therefore, I don't see the need to compare those two completely unrelated occurences as you ask me to do ("more or less offensive?").


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Ã‰tienne_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I couldn't link to the European media I'd have never seen the cartoons that are causing all the trouble. Seems like the US media along with the BBC are too cowardly to show the whole story - as in what the fuss is about.


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

I just learned that all 12 cartoons were published on the front page of a Cairo newspaper last October - so the rioting started 5 months later because of...hmmmmmm


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## johnapril (Feb 8, 2006)

I have posted a good history of the events in the NYT article a few posts up.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

I've got two major problems with even the non-violent bits of the responce of the Danish Muslims. First, why would they go to Egypt and Syria to complain about something a private Danish company did? Egypt and Syria don't have any standing to regulate the Danish media nor should they.

Second, why should they demand an apology from Denmark for something that Denmark didn't do? Some newspaper published the cartoons. What on earth does the government of Denmark have to do with that?

The big problem here is that even among (some of) those born and raised in the West, there is a distinct lack of understanding about how the West works. Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech mean exactly that. They are allowed to publish darn near whatever they want and your primary recourse is to _not buy it_.

Which bit of "we're not an islamo-facist dictatorship" did they not understand?

CT

PS I would not hold it against any paper/TV network to refuse to print/show those cartoons. I think they were innapropriate. But the response has been 1000-fold less appropriate.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gentlemen,

A few weeks ago I started a thread on what course of action we should take with regard to the Iranian nuclear crisis. I was surprised that a number of posters were hardly bothered by such a possibility and a few even defended Iran's position. Is anyone now less concerned over a nuclear Iran then they were a few weeks ago? The burning down of embassies and calling for another Holocaust over a cartoon hardly offers us assurance about the Muslim world.

If the recent cartoon crisis does not concentrate the collective mind of the West then I am afraid nothing will. I am a Roman Catholic and am often offended by what the press has to say about my religion yet my most furious response has been a letter to the editor. Compare that with the outcry and violence over a few *CARTOONS* in the Muslim world. And despite my dismay over anti-Catholic remarks (or what I view as anti-Catholic) I would never advocate that such remarks be illegal, prohibited or punished. I believe in political pluralism and free speech and this belief is far more important than any minor irritation I am experience over a cartoon or a vicious editorial.And most importantly I have the right to defend my views and attack those views which I find offensive - this is almost never the case in the Muslim world.

Whether one chooses to admit it or not we are engaged in a culture war. One culture values tolerance, liberty, pluralism and property rights and one does not. It is time to choose sides and the Muslim world must choose whether it wants to exist within the modern world or whether it wishes to remain mired in poverty, corruption and paranoia.

Karl


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

a few months ago I was in an exhibit of art from the persian empire. one thing that surprised me very much was that as far as the persians were concerned, the greeks really weren't all that much of a threat - the greeks were more like an amusing little barbarian culture on the frindge. 

to the greeks, we know, the persians were a major enemy, and a focus of a lot of thier concern. of course, in the end, the greeks crushed the persians and ended the persian empire. 


I say this because I think that this is the present situation with the muslim world and the west. we do not understand how much they are focused on us being the enemy, and we seem to consider them just a funny little group of guys way over their, who couldn't really harm us if they tried. we are in for a big suprise - this is a war that our grandchildren will most probrably be involved in.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
> . . . . I give major kudos to the Jordanian editors who printed the cartoons there. Testicular fortitude.


He has, I read yesterday, been discharged and arrested.

Relatedly, I was proud of the response of _Le Soir_, then astounded that the editor was sacked. A French acquaintance tells me that the current owner, who dismissed the forthright editor, is a Moslem from Egypt, a country notorious for oppression of the older Christian minority, remnant of the pre-Arab-invasion ethnic Egyptians.


> quote:_Originally posted by marsh_
> . . . . I was very interested to learn yesterday that the initial newspaper in Denmark is a right wing Christian paper . . . .


My curiosity aroused by your comment, I spent nearly an hour on the website, www.jp.dk, of the newspaper. I found reading Danish slow going but nothing to indicate that the publication is other than a typical provincial newspaper. Where did you read otherwise?


----------



## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
> 
> Et, I will say my comments weren't made to be offensive in the first place and if they were I offer you my sincere apology.


Apology accepted, I should have read that before answering earlier.



> quote:
> Its my belief that the entire civlized world needs to come to the defense of the Danes on this issue


On this we could not agree more, I think.


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## [email protected] (Jan 12, 2005)

ok living in an outpost as i do, i still havent seen these cartoons. some googling showed me one (mohamed with bomb), havent seen the other (something about virgins) - can anyone point me in their direction without having the ask andy headquarters in manhattan beach stormed?


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
> 
> I've got two major problems with even the non-violent bits of the responce of the Danish Muslims. First, why would they go to Egypt and Syria to complain about something a private Danish company did? Egypt and Syria don't have any standing to regulate the Danish media nor should they.
> 
> ...


I agree completely with your position.

The proper response to an inappropriate cartoon of this nature is a letter to the editor or petition asking for a retraction, or even a peaceful picket.

It still gets your position heard, and not dismissed for being utter wackjobbery.

*"Buy the best, and you will only cry once." - Chinese proverb*


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by marsh_
> 
> Globetrotter - the balance of your posts reflects your handle.


Yeah, but wait until SGladwell starts trying to pick on him [}]


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


tom, glad you found us here. I am still hoping that gladwell is lost.

everything ok with you?


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> tom, glad you found us here. I am still hoping that gladwell is lost.
> 
> everything ok with you?


Likewise, Zach. Everything's about the same. Staff work. I'm briefing the boss more often now so I have to be better-informed, plus it's giving me some good presentation experience.


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## Mr. Checks (Dec 21, 2005)

This whole cartoon issue is disturbing (or as Vaclav would say: "distrubing") but it's teaching us something at the same time.

For the left: It's teaching us that these people are not neutral and cannot be pacified, but are enemies of the United States and the West. It's teaching us that reasoned argument can sometimes be meaningless. 

For the right: It's teaching us that we cannot see radical Islam through a Western lens. It's teaching us that all people do not want to be free.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Checks_
> 
> This whole cartoon issue is disturbing (or as Vaclav would say: "distrubing") but it's teaching us something at the same time.
> 
> ...


Poland, Mr. Checks?

one thing that I would say, though, is that this isn't everybody in these countries. I am still sure that some people would like to have more freedoms, but just not the ones that are the loudest and the strongest. but I think that your points are good ones.


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## Mr. Checks (Dec 21, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True enough (I was making a sweeping generalization which has, I think, some validity).

As for Poland, I think that's a good example of waiting until the oppressed people in the country have reached a critical mass and come to a consensus about a solution before an outsider (the Vatican, Reagan) reaches out to help overthrow the oppressors. You can't jump the gun on that one. Cf. Iraq.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Checks_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no, what I meant was, "Mr. Checks, are you in Poland?" as your signature says? I am guessing you are Mr. Checks from SF, who normally hangs out in the midwest, no?

but yes, I think that Poland and Iran may have a lot in common - I think that there is a nice sized group of secular people in Iran who would love to live in a secular country. they aren't a majority, but they are well educated and financially comfortable. That may compare to the catholic anti-communists in poland in the 80's.


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## Mr. Checks (Dec 21, 2005)

One and the same Mr. Checks.

I hope you're right about Iran.


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Mr. Checks_
> 
> This whole cartoon issue is disturbing (or as Vaclav would say: "distrubing") but it's teaching us something at the same time.
> 
> ...


As far as generalizations go, very well said indeed.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

score!! I haven't been able to find all 12

https://www.perlentaucher.de/artikel/2888.html


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

"Tsk, tsk, look about these so-called 'Christians' burning crosses, turning dogs on peaceful protesters, and blowing up little girls just because they don't want their children to go to school with little black boys and girls. That's the difference between us and those vulgar Americans..."


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

You can find all 12 of them on Michelle Malkin's blog, here:



I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Andres Serrano's infamous photo entitled "Piss Christ," showing a crucifix immersed in urine. That was insulting to Christians everywhere, but I don't recall riots in the streets or anyone burning U.S. flags or U.S. embassies. 

The difference is that Piss Christ wasn't just the work of an independent artist, the way the cartoons were printed by independent Danish newspapers. Serrano had received a grant from the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art, which in turn had received a much larger grant from the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA). In other words, Serrano's work was funded partly by U.S. Government money.

The big controversy was not over whether Serrano had the right to create whatever sort of art he wanted. It was over the way NEA grant money was distributed. The same people who defended Serrano and "Piss Christ" are now criticizing the Danish cartoons as culturally insensitive and inappropriate.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Karl89_
> 
> Gentlemen,
> 
> ...


Karl Coeur de Lion:

I see you are still suffering from a nasty case of Sam Huntingtonâ€™s disease. My sympathies. While the medical men race to find a cure, here's a thought: why doesn't that superior culture you champion try extending the values of "tolerance, liberty, pluralism and property rights" to the Muslim people of the Middle East - just for the hell of it, just to see what would happen? We might all be surprised at the results. But, of course, the "superior culture" would never dream of doing something so . . . well, superior - would it?

And, really, you should avoid referring to the Roman Catholic Church as an institution, and Roman Catholicism as a creed, in any discussion of the virtues of tolerance and free thought. Your religion (and, nominally, mine) has nothing on Islam in either respect.

Anyhow, carry on. I'm sure you've got plenty to do launching crusades and shouldering the White Man's burden - and if it's necessary to destroy the world in order to save it, I'm sure you won't flinch at that. Good luck, and Godspeed.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## n/a (Sep 4, 2002)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> You can find all 12 of them on Michelle Malkin's blog, here:
> 
> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Andres Serrano's infamous photo entitled "Piss Christ," showing a crucifix immersed in urine. That was insulting to Christians everywhere, but I don't recall riots in the streets or anyone burning U.S. flags or U.S. embassies.


rojo: Thanks for the link. I had not previously seen all the cartoons.

As for the "Piss Christ", I recall reading about that. As a practising Anglican I admit to having found it offensive at the time, yet I just simply mumbled "whatever" and got on with my life.


Rarely, rarely, comest thou,
Spirit of Delight!
Wherefore hast thou left me now
Many a day and night?
Many a weary night and day
'Tis since thou art fled away.

Percy Bysshe Shelley: _Song_​


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## johnapril (Feb 8, 2006)

The more comforts and freedoms a civilization acquires, the more subtle its masses express violence. But it's violence nonetheless.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by johnapril_
> 
> The more comforts and freedoms a civilization acquires, the more subtle its masses express violence. But it's violence nonetheless.


Would you mind giving us an example of "subtle violence"? I'm not following your argument.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by johnapril_
> The more comforts and freedoms a civilization acquires, the more subtle its masses express violence. But it's violence nonetheless.


And I thank you for it.[:X]

*************
RJman. Accept no imitations.


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## johnapril (Feb 8, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by rojo_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pardon, rojo. I'm trying to keep up with today's discussion and a hundred things at work...

What I intended to suggest was something about the violent nature of man. That violence is something inherent in our nature. That it is something we either control or do not. That, and, when we control our anger, our inate violence, then it often manifests itself in other ways. The way we shut off others from existence, in our minds, that is a form of violence. The way we think, as long as I am OK, and mine is mine, then to hell with the other guy. That is violence. The turning away. The ignorance. Violence. And a common example. The way people drive. Violence masked. Food for your discussion...


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Yckmwia,

Ignorance MUST be bliss for you my friend. To paraphrase Trotsky "Everyone has the right to be stupid but Yckmwia abuses the privilege."

Just a joke! Yckmwia you are obviously intelligent and well read but its precisely for this reason that your opinions are so disappointing. 

Karl


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

Yckmwia - Not to make it too obvious, but you've made our point for us. You can insult my religion as much as you'd like and the worst I'm going to do is think you an imbecile and ignore you. Try that some time with the people rioting _about a cartoon published 5000 miles away_ and you'll get a firsthand glimpse of why they are nekulturny*.

"Useful idiot" is the phrase that comes to mind.

CT

* lit. uncultured, but it's much more insulting in Russian than English


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by crazyquik_
> 
> I think its a perfect comparison of the West vs the Middle East.
> 
> It's a blasphemy and breaks one of the 10 Commandments to make a depiction of the Christian God. But Westerners don't burn flags. fill the streets, and storm embassies when someone does.


No it's not.

It may be a violation of the commandment to worship the depiction, but there is no prohibition against making one.

It has, in my opinion, shown much of the US and EU press to be utter cowards.

The NY Times won't print the cartoons out of "respect for Islam", but in the same edition print a picture of the Dung Mary, a portrait of Mary done in s**t.

Yeah, because they know that the Christains won't come burn their houses down and cut their heads off.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, just more competent.

A *lot* more competent.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by marsh_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, he's not.

He's so un-credible that the term "fisking" arose (has arisen?) to mean "a point-by-point rebuttal of some nitwit's writings".



> quote:
> He said he saw the movie in Paris, where the week previously one had been burnt, and went on to detail some similar incidents.... can't vouch for it, but I believe it.


Does he give some evidence that the burning of the cinema was related directly to it's showing of the LTOC? And that it was a christian that burned it down, rather than some Arab Youth Expressing Cultural Disagreement?

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
> 
> Second, why should they demand an apology from Denmark for something that Denmark didn't do? Some newspaper published the cartoons. What on earth does the government of Denmark have to do with that?


Because in that part of the world "The Press", "The Government", and "Religion" are a LOT more tightly coupled than in Europe and the US.



> quote:
> The big problem here is that even among (some of) those born and raised in the West, there is a distinct lack of understanding about how the West works. Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech mean exactly that. They are allowed to publish darn near whatever they want and your primary recourse is to _not buy it_.
> Which bit of "we're not an islamo-facist dictatorship" did they not understand?


There is Dar Al Islam, and Dar Al Harb.



> quote:
> PS I would not hold it against any paper/TV network to refuse to print/show those cartoons. I think they were innapropriate. But the response has been 1000-fold less appropriate.


In my opinion those cartoons were an accurate depiction of Islam as it is today, and as Mohammad comes across in the Koran.

And I do hold it against any news organization that has ever reprinted a picture of Piss Christ, Dung Mary, any one of the thousands of Anti-semitic and anti-christian Political Cartoons coming out of that cesspool of intellictualism known as "the Middle East" to refust to print the cartoons (or any one of them) on the basis of "tolerance towards Islam".

They are refusing to print the cartoons for the same reason the News Networks self-censored things like the videos of people falling from the World Trade Center after the attacks--one person said it sounded like rain. There is video and audio of it, but it's never been shown.

Why?

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

If they don't like the cartoons wait until they see the movie.

[:0]

Is there no field of human endeavor uncontaminated by the Lizard People?


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> "Tsk, tsk, look about these so-called 'Christians' burning crosses, turning dogs on peaceful protesters, and blowing up little girls just because they don't want their children to go to school with little black boys and girls. That's the difference between us and those vulgar Americans..."


The big difference is that in the US "normal" people saw those things on TV and were revolted to the point where now *tens* of these nitwits getting together to walk down the street have to have police protection.

Well, except for West Virgina which keeps re-electing one to the Senate.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

"Fisking"? That sounds like something that should only be done in the privacy of one's bedroom between consenting adults...

Wow, this thread has really become a spitting match, sort of like how other internet forums are on the web. Not AAAC at all.

DD


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## petro (Apr 5, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> 
> Karl Coeur de Lion:
> I see you are still suffering from a nasty case of Sam Huntington#8217;s disease. My sympathies. While the medical men race to find a cure, here's a thought: why doesn't that superior culture you champion try extending the values of "tolerance, liberty, pluralism and property rights" to the Muslim people of the Middle East - just for the hell of it, just to see what would happen? We might all be surprised at the results. But, of course, the "superior culture" would never dream of doing something so . . . well, superior - would it?


We've tried for over 50 years to treat the Middle East with Respect and Tolerance of equals.

For our trouble Saudi Arabia funds--with our oil moneys (made from oil fields surveyed by western companies, wells built by westerners and pipelines etc.)--a radical sect of Islam blaming the West and the Jews for the fact that the middle east is a bleeding cesspool of repression and cruelty.

In Iran right now there is a 17 year old girl waiting to be executed for the dastardly crime of accidently killing a man while defending herself and her sister against rape.

In *NO* civilized country would this be a crime, much less a capital crime.

And in Iran, had she been raped her best bet would be that she would get pregnant, as then her family couldn't kill her until the child stopped breastfeeding. Because of course by not preventing the rape she is now unclean and has dishonored the family.

We've spent BILLIONs of dollars in the Middle East trying to get them to act like civilized adults, and what has been the result? Mostly to fill the bank accounts of the rulers of these countries, and for them to treat us like the suckers YOU would have us continue being.



> quote:
> And, really, you should avoid referring to the Roman Catholic Church as an institution, and Roman Catholicism as a creed, in any discussion of the virtues of tolerance and free thought. Your religion (and, nominally, mine) has nothing on Islam in either respect.


The Church has made some fairly high profile mistakes in that area, but that statement exudes a tremendous amount of ignorance and prejudice.

The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know.
P.J. O'Rourke


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by petro_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by petro_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your statements regarding U.S. actions in the Middle East over the last 50 years are of such breath-taking stupidity that they don't even rise to the level of drivel. To disabuse you of such notions would require the strength of Samson and the patience of Job: I have neither, so I must retire. The field is yours; enjoy your triumph. However, I am absolutely fascinated by your defense of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Is it your position that the Roman Church has been a champion of tolerance and free thought throughout its history, one that has far out-paced the Faith of the Prophet in this respect? This I've simply _got_ to hear, or, more accurately, see. Please, enlighten me with the radiant history of the Church's support for the liberty of the human mind and body.

As Petro combs his files on Catholic apologetics, I will take the opportunity to note that I find it incredible that so many on this list apparently cannot, or will not, see that the uproar over the Danish cartoons is a political issue, and not a cultural or religious issue. I know I shouldn't find this incredible, given the exchanges I've read in the past, but, nonetheless, I do. The men who frequent this forum are, on the whole, educated, well-read (at least relatively), well-informed, and capable of expressing themselves with fluency and style. Yet, for many, the simplest facts of political life are as obscure and impenetrable as the Voynich Manuscript. This has nothing to do, really, with one's political orientation - the view is essentially the same from the far Left to the furthest Right; yet many ignore the obvious political issues and simply attribute the vehemence of the cartoon dispute to inveterate Muslim savagery and "backwardness". This borders on the demented.

Here's a short test. Which is the more violent and bloodthirsty entity?:

(A) An angry mob of Lebanese Muslims which, on the pretext of avenging dishonor to the Prophet, sacks and burns the Danish Consulate; or

(B) A global superpower which, on the pretext of assassinating an avowed terrorist, launches an "airstrike" at a Pakistani village and kills eighteen people, including five children.

Here's a hint: the answer isn't (A).

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_I find it incredible that so many on this list apparently cannot, or will not, see that the uproar over the Danish cartoons is a political issue, and not a cultural or religious issue. _


_
Y,
You're being a bit disingenuous here and ignoring the several posters who have noted that the riots were not gut reactions by the majority, but were instead carefully plotted over the course of five to eight months by Islamist leaders in Europe and the Middle East. The riots were planned in detail and in depth in very savvy political maneuvering by the imams and mullahs whose religion you are defending as tolerant.

On the other hand it is just plain wrong to ignore the connection between politics and culture and religion, especially when discussing Islam. That those leaders are using inflammatory and culture-war language in order to stir violent emotions is unquestionable. Unless you're including yourself in your accusation of "obscure and impenetrable," in which case we might as well accept that we're all in the boat together and stop flinging insults back and forth.

All I have to say about the relative histories of Catholicism and Islam is that they have been violent and peaceful, tolerant and oppressive at opposing times. Mohammed was a military leader who conquered a large swath of the world, raping and pillaging on the way. Once his caliphate was established it became an extremely open and accepting society. Soon after, Rome created the Inquisition. Right now, while the head of the Catholic Church is reaching out to Jewish and Muslim religious leaders (but excluding Anglicans!) the ummah has become insular and intolerant.

Tom_


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## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Relevant to our discussion, read the whole thing.

___________

"My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." 
~Errol Flynn


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by petro_
> 
> 
> > quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> ...


But it took over a hundred years for that kind of violence to cease being common across a significant part of America. Because what are most "normal" people capable of doing, or willing to do, in the face of such overwhelming corruption? They turn off the television, and go about trying to live their lives.

Many in the West are disgusted because they don't see any evidence of "decent" Muslims willing to stand up and denounce the hateful rhetoric and violence. But it's always the case that when the political and military leadership of a society has been corrupted, it's difficult if not impossible for decency to immediately stand up and speak with a powerful voice.

In the meantime, though, it's always the vocal violent, whether they constitute a majority or a minority, who by their very nature command attention and create a distorted view of the community at large. How often did it _seem_ that _entire communities_ gleefully participated in brutal lynchings in America? Were there no "normal" people there? Of course there were, struggling with how to live their lives and protect their families in a culture where even law enforcement was corrupt, and where speaking up for decency meant being ostracized, beaten and/or killed for being a "n*****-lover".

It's easy to sit at a comfortable distance and criticize people for not having the courage of their convictions, but I wonder what most of us "normal" decent people would do if we saw our sherriff and his armed entourage drag a 13 year old black kid through the town, and hang him for merely whistling at a white girl, as our neighbors laughed and applauded. Or if we saw our law-abiding Jewish neighbors being evicted, stripped of their possessions and marched off, headed for 'work camps'.



> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> one thing that I would say, though, is that this isn't everybody in these countries. I am still sure that some people would like to have more freedoms, but just not the ones that are the loudest and the strongest.


But how do we neutralize the "loud and strong", while at the same time empowering those who seek peace and democracy? It seems an extremely difficult proposition when the West has its own loud and strong component who insists on condemning the entire Moslem community.



> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> Y,
> You're being a bit disingenuous here and ignoring the several posters who have noted that the riots were not gut reactions by the majority, but were instead carefully plotted over the course of five to eight months by Islamist leaders in Europe and the Middle East. The riots were planned in detail and in depth in very savvy political maneuvering by the imams and mullahs whose religion you are defending as tolerant.
> 
> ...


I would agree with this by and large. My concern would be with the readiness of some to identify a religion or political structure as 'corrupt' simply because its leadership at any particular time is corrupt. Though I don't imagine that you're among them since you acknowledge that "Catholicism and Islam... have been violent and peaceful, tolerant and oppressive at opposing times,". You seem to be acknowledging that the nature of a culture is fluid rather than intractable, even if the very roots of the culture have elements that are less than noble:


> quote:Mohammed was a military leader who conquered a large swath of the world, raping and pillaging on the way.


Similarly, while I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that some of the slaves of some of America's founding fathers might have been brutally raped and killed (if not by the owners' own hands, then with their tacit approval), any such incidents would certainly not condemn American democracy as an invalid or 'corrupt' notion.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by whnay._
> 
> Relevant to our discussion, read the whole thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I found it somewhat encouraging, even while I feared for the lives of each person whose name I read. I am curious to hear what others think.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> . . . . you should avoid referring to the Roman Catholic Church as an institution, and Roman Catholicism as a creed, in any discussion of the virtues of tolerance and free thought. Your religion (and, nominally, mine) has nothing on Islam in either respect. . . .


Do you say, Y+, that you adhere to the Roman church while regarding it as intolerant and anti-intellectual? If you do, and if you'd care to explain why you do (of course, you needn't explain; we all of us have irrational aspects, even if we protest that we are clearer-eyed and clearer-thinking than the next man), I'd be interested in reading how you reconcile seemingly competing aspects of your character. That might even give us insights into such of some Moslems.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


one major problem that I think we have in understanding islam and the people of islam is how hard it is to understand how a person can be very good according to some of our critiria and very evil according to other of our critieria.

I think that when we say that the leadership of the islamic world is one way and the people are differnt, I think we are deluding ourselves. I think that the vast majority of the people who see islam as the defining point of their culture - from morocco to idonesia, from south africa to russia - believe in some things that we would see as evil. and, on the same note, the vast majoroty of these same people probrably have many beliefs and habbits that we would charactorise as making them very good people.

we would be very foolish to believe that anti-semitism, racial discrimination, oppresion of women (by our standards), and the support of the justice of bin-lanin's attacks on america and on the various terror wars arond the world including Israel are ideas that are not supported by the majority of the Islamic world and are just ideas that are impossed upon them by their leadership.

I have met many arabs who were very nice people, in many ways very good people, and who believed very strongly in the justice of bin-Ladin, as well being terrible anti-semites.

I am firmly convinced that this is not a small part of the population, to believe so is to delude ourselves.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


rws,

I apologize if I gave the wrong impression. I'm a convinced atheist; however, I was raised a Roman Catholic, and I even attended, for a mercifully brief period, Catholic schools. Thus, I am familiar with Holy Mother Church and its doctrines, even if I shall never again partake of its sacraments.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

Globetrotter,

I didn't mean to suggest that "evil" rests only with the leadership or a small minority, any more than racial violence in America was executed by a small minority. But institutionalized evil does tend to encourage people's darker inclinations and facilitate the spread of these inclinations in people who have the capacity to do either good or ill. It seems to me we have a tendency to simplistically reduce people to either "evil" or "good". Is Robert Byrd a good man or an evil man? Was Malcolm X? 

I know a few good people my grandparents' age who are sufficiently mature and reconciled with themselves to be able to reflect on their own personal history of racial hatred. Good people every one, none of them the same people they once were.

Again, I think the most productive question is how to change the situation for the better? I do not imagine that answer lies in the universal condemnation of an entire people.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Yckmwia,

I believe you were mocking my view that the current struggle we face is a clash of civilizations. I will allow Andrew Sullivan to make my case for me:

_Sistani, Moderate
11 Feb 2006 02:08 pm

The Ayatollah Sistani has been perhaps the most stabilizing force in Iraq these past few years. I've praised him often; some have suggested he be offered the Nobel Peace Prize. He is often presented as the very model of a modern mullah, open to separation of mosque and state. Still it's very useful to see what he actually believes on his own website. He believes, for example, that he must not touch a non-Muslim. We are unclean. There is a short list of things regarded as unclean, and, if you are not a Muslim, you are on that list: urine, feces, semen, a dead body, blood, a dog, a pig, alcohol and the sweat of an animal that doesn't eat the right things. Oh, and you:

The entire body of a *****, including his hair and nails, and all liquid substances of his body, are najis.

Faithful Jews and Christians fare a little better:

As regards the people of the Book (i.e. the Jews and the Christians) who do not accept the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad bin Abdullah (Peace be upon him and his progeny), they are commonly considered najis, but it is not improbable that they are Pak. However, it is better to avoid them.

This website is useful for us to understand better why Islam - not just radical Islam - finds modern pluralistic societies so difficult to tolerate. The West's view is that all humans are equal in their political and civil rights. Islam's view is that non-Muslims are on a separate plane: beneath them. Hence their insistence that the West now comport to Islam's rules with respect to what we can and cannot say and publish in public. We keep saying we must avoid a "clash of civilizations" and no sane person would want one. But that clash has already occurred - within our own civilization. And we're slowly surrendering._

Karl


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> Globetrotter,
> 
> ...


agreed - one of the things that is incredible about the holocust is the way that a few chanractoristics and beliefs common among most people, who nevertheless were too civillized to act upon them were leveraged into genocide.


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## rws (May 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Yckmwia_
> 
> 
> > quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> ...


Ah, I see and thank you for the clarification. It was your typing that you were "nominally" rather than "formerly" Romanist that confused me; typographical errors are so easily made if you, as I, try to do more than one or two things at once! That changed, your statements don't seem inconsistent with your professed beliefs.

So much, though, for additional insight into the thoughts and actions of the angry abroad today.


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## J. Homely (Feb 7, 2006)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> agreed - one of the things that is incredible about the holocust is the way that a few chanractoristics and beliefs common among most people, who nevertheless were too civillized to act upon them were leveraged into genocide.


It's frightening how common it is for human beings, who would themselves not be inclined towards acts of violence, to passively allow spontaneous acts of violence to be committed in their presence, even by a small, easily-overpowered minority. Happens every day. Barroom rapes, gay bashings...

So for me, it's not difficult to understand how a Holocaust can occur when an armed, committed, organized military force is involved in a carefully planned and executed agenda of evil...


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by rws_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're quite right about typos, but I meant to write nominally. When asked my faith, I usually say, "I was raised a Roman Catholic, but I now reject all religious belief." The Church maintains, or maintained, that once one is received into its bosom, one never really leaves; and from time to time I find this fiction useful. For instance, when approached by the eager twice-born, one is often asked one's faith, as a prelude to the proselytizing onslaught. I have found that responding "atheist" or "unbeliever" is an invitation to a tedious exchange that one has to be rude to terminate. However, if one responds "Roman Catholic" the would-be fishers of men make only a half-hearted effort at conversion: apparently tangling with a devotee of the Whore of Babylon is much less interesting than wrestling with the Devil for the soul of an unbeliever. So, when it is convenient for me to do so, I still identify myself as a Catholic. I could attend mass tomorrow without missing a beat, but I'd only do so at gunpoint.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by J. Homely_
> 
> It's frightening how common it is for human beings, who would themselves not be inclined towards acts of violence, to passively allow spontaneous acts of violence to be committed in their presence, even by a small, easily-overpowered minority. Happens every day. Barroom rapes, gay bashings...
> 
> So for me, it's not difficult to understand how a Holocaust can occur when an armed, committed, organized military force is involved in a carefully planned and executed agenda of evil...


I agree. Everyone knows it's wrong, but they don't do anything. People really don't work together, especially in cultures which promote individualism. Hell, I admit that I'm not about to start being a hero, because at my weight I wouldn't last long. On my own property, however, it would be a much different story than it would in a public place.

DD


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I remember my nephew groaning one summer when he faced the new semester's english curiculum including Shakespear."I hate Shakespear!" I asked my nephew why? "It's stupid. " I pressed my nephew and determined his exposure consisted of cultural sound bites. So I took my nephew to an outdoor performance of THE TEMPEST at Will Greer's Theatricum Botanica in Topanga Canyon. By the time school started my vintage set of the Bard had moved from my bookcase to his.Later my nephew decided to study arabic and religous studies with an emphasis on islam well before 9/11. And no, he hasn't pulled a John Walker or ignited his shoes ( already deadly with B.O.) I was working partime for my mechanics, an english jew and afghan muslim. Zabi Nasiri for some reason decided to ask my family ancestry. I started to explain my forebear's nationalities when he curtly cut me off." No wonder your so -----up. My people,pure Pashtun, I trace back 9 generations." My nephew was standing there slackjawed. I said, "John, read from the Holy Qu'oran the Immam in Sand Diego gifted you." John did- in the holy language of arabic.I turned to, well more on Zabi. "So, can YOU read your book in arabic? He shook his head."Well My -----up family accomplished this in one generation while yours is still growing poppies and fighting over pistachio trees." I quit with the parting warning, " Zabi, in one of the languages my book was written in,PARA BELLUM." Theres an old saying, 'Know thy enemy.'I've read the Qu'oran. I've watched the mystical dancing of Sufi dervishes and observed Ramadan with a dear turkish friend.I no more recognise these terrorists as moslems as I do the idiots knocking on my door with beautific smiles and short sleeved, starched white shirts as christians. Intolerance, stupidy and racism I do recognise. Theres plenty to go around.


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## ChubbyTiger (Mar 10, 2005)

> quote:You're quite right about typos, but I meant to write nominally. When asked my faith, I usually say, "I was raised a Roman Catholic, but I now reject all religious belief." The Church maintains, or maintained, that once one is received into its bosom, one never really leaves; and from time to time I find this fiction useful. For instance, when approached by the eager twice-born, one is often asked one's faith, as a prelude to the proselytizing onslaught. I have found that responding "atheist" or "unbeliever" is an invitation to a tedious exchange that one has to be rude to terminate. However, if one responds "Roman Catholic" the would-be fishers of men make only a half-hearted effort at conversion: apparently tangling with a devotee of the Whore of Babylon is much less interesting than wrestling with the Devil for the soul of an unbeliever. So, when it is convenient for me to do so, I still identify myself as a Catholic. I could attend mass tomorrow without missing a beat, but I'd only do so at gunpoint.


Fine, but please try to keep the lying to a minimum. Lepers, whores, and tax collectors I'll associate with, but holy-than-thou apologists for the enemy I can do without. I believe those would have been called Sadducees back in the day.

CT


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> I remember my nephew groaning one summer when he faced the new semester's english curiculum including Shakespear."I hate Shakespear!" I asked my nephew why? "It's stupid. " I pressed my nephew and determined his exposure consisted of cultural sound bites. So I took my nephew to an outdoor performance of THE TEMPEST at Will Greer's Theatricum Botanica in Topanga Canyon. By the time school started my vintage set of the Bard had moved from my bookcase to his.Later my nephew decided to study arabic and religous studies with an emphasis on islam well before 9/11. And no, he hasn't pulled a John Walker or ignited his shoes ( already deadly with B.O.) I was working partime for my mechanics, an english jew and afghan muslim. Zabi Nasiri for some reason decided to ask my family ancestry. I started to explain my forebear's nationalities when he curtly cut me off." No wonder your so -----up. My people,pure Pashtun, I trace back 9 generations." My nephew was standing there slackjawed. I said, "John, read from the Holy Qu'oran the Immam in Sand Diego gifted you." John did- in the holy language of arabic.I turned to, well more on Zabi. "So, can YOU read your book in arabic? He shook his head."Well My -----up family accomplished this in one generation while yours is still growing poppies and fighting over pistachio trees." I quit with the parting warning, " Zabi, in one of the languages my book was written in,PARA BELLUM." Theres an old saying, 'Know thy enemy.'I've read the Qu'oran. I've watched the mystical dancing of Sufi dervishes and observed Ramadan with a dear turkish friend.I no more recognise these terrorists as moslems as I do the idiots knocking on my door with beautific smiles and short sleeved, starched white shirts as christians. Intolerance, stupidy and racism I do recognise. Theres plenty to go around.


Kav, saying all muslims are terrorists is like saying all americans are B-52 pilots.

the question is, though, how many of them support the terror. that is entirly another question.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by ChubbyTiger_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Be at peace, brother; I won't darken the door of your parish's charnel house, you may be sure of that. Moreover, I seriously doubt that The Holy Father, Benedictus XVI, will solicit my opinion on matters of church doctrine, so my influence upon the devout will be small - although if you've read _Hadrian the Seventh_ you know anything is possible. And which enemy have I apologized for: Islam or Satan? Or are the two as one in the mind of the faithful? Finally, let me assure you that I do limit my untruths to a minimum; however, when one is dealing with the simple-minded and deluded it is often best to withhold at least part of the unpleasant truth so as not to disturb their hard-earned equanimity - as several exchanges with you on this forum have confirmed.

In either event, I _am_ a Catholic; I partook of the sacraments of initiation into the faith, I attended mass regularly, I confessed my sins, and I did my penance - what more do you ask? I haven't been excommunicated, or if I have, no one has thought to inform me. I didn't stand on the cathedral steps, renounce my faith, and curse God. I rather think that the liars in this matter are those who no longer believe, but who continue to attend mass and go through the rituals of devotion without belief in their efficacy; but perhaps I'm wrong.

In parting, it may interest you to know that the Sadducees have gotten a bad rap. Shaye J. D. Cohen's _From the Maccabees to the Mishnah_ is particularly good on this. Check it out. However, as you seem to worship power and authority, I would have thought you approved of the Sadducees. Live and learn, I suppose, live and learn.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Globetrotter- Exactly! Listening to my leftist news source ( the Pacifica Foundation radio stations) One would think the west should attend one of those corporate touchy feely seminars to understand and atone personally for every injustice done to the world body since the Roman Empire.It would take a great deal of combined hubris and ignorance to deny our collective cultures are very good at warring on themselves. I am hardly a flat earth believer or Holacost revisionist. But I am also not naieve enough to think someday everyone will hold hands in colourfull ethnic costumes singing "It's a small world afterall" like the saccharine ride at Dizneyland.The Ward Churchills and Yckmwima's of the world are not our conscious, but a mutant cancer in our own system. One may call the apple tree rotten, but sitting in a branch and hoping somebody comes along with a chainsaw is inately self hating. The death of 12 people in Pakistan is no more immoral than killing 3000 'little Eichmanns' on 9/11. The fact 5 senior El Quida leaders and operators, and by a lucky miss bin laden's #2 man were snuffed makes it sad, but justified in my values. You can call it collateral damage or anythinbg else. I really don't care. You harbor my enemies and your my enemy too.In America those villagers would be charged with child abuse. You don't let PCP dealers, SLA revolutionaries work out of your house and expect the authorities to knock first.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> Globetrotter- Exactly! Listening to my leftist news source ( the Pacifica Foundation radio stations) One would think the west should attend one of those corporate touchy feely seminars to understand and atone personally for every injustice done to the world body since the Roman Empire.It would take a great deal of combined hubris and ignorance to deny our collective cultures are very good at warring on themselves. I am hardly a flat earth believer or Holacost revisionist. But I am also not naieve enough to think someday everyone will hold hands in colourfull ethnic costumes singing "It's a small world afterall" like the saccharine ride at Dizneyland.The Ward Bonds and Yckmwima's of the world are not our conscious, but a mutant cancer in our own system.


I think you mean Ward Churchill. Mutant cancer? Oh dear. And when have I argued in favor of "corporate touchy feely seminars to understand and atone personally for every injustice done to the world body since the Roman " or stated a desire that "someday everyone will hold hands in colourfull ethnic costumes singing "It's a small world afterall" like the saccharine ride at Dizneyland"? You are quite the cartoonist. I realize that expressing a hope that some time in the near future the U.S. might reduce its endless warmaking may strike some "leftists" as pie-in-the-sky nonsense, but that's part of the problem, isn't it? With friends like these, and so on . . .

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The problem Yckmwia is nobody really knows who, or what you are or believe. The raison d'etre of this website is pretty clear. I've learned, through consensus and example I don't want a ventless, black suit, tietacks, matching tie and pocket square and a Calle lily for boutionier.This forum is less so. I've never once 'converted' someone to embrace firearms, 'The Caveman Diet' or radical environmentalism. We can throw naval braodsides all day about 'Shrub' or 'scary Kerry' too. That senseless exercise is like giving fingers on the freeway. In the end everybody is still going in a general anyway direction and ( hopefully) arrives safely. What I can do, hopefully do is present my values in a new light and give new points of debate, merit and investigation by those with different views. As such, it also helps to listen and gain same. I may be attacked. I may attack others. But at thread's end a modicum or respect should be given. We have many similar viewpoints. But I don't see any respect in your posts. You frankly remind me of that curious species of high school teacher, who after years teaching Geography to a captive and probationary class of citizens assume in their hubris the ordained task of restoring order to the world at large. I had several. One in fact stands out. She was yelling at a student to shut up and sit down, oblivious to the projector behind her arcing electrical sparks and beginning to smoke.


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## Yckmwia (Mar 29, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Kav_
> 
> The problem Yckmwia is nobody really knows who, or what you are or believe. The raison d'etre of this website is pretty clear. I've learned, through consensus and example I don't want a ventless, black suit, tietacks, matching tie and pocket square and a Calle lily for boutionier.This forum is less so. I've never once 'converted' someone to embrace firearms, 'The Caveman Diet' or radical environmentalism. We can throw naval braodsides all day about 'Shrub' or 'scary Kerry' too. That senseless exercise is like giving fingers on the freeway. In the end everybody is still going in a general anyway direction and ( hopefully) arrives safely. What I can do, hopefully do is present my values in a new light and give new points of debate, merit and investigation by those with different views. As such, it also helps to listen and gain same. I may be attacked. I may attack others. But at thread's end a modicum or respect should be given. We have many similar viewpoints. But I don't see any respect in your posts. You frankly remind me of that curious species of high school teacher, who after years teaching Geography to a captive and probationary class of citizens assume in their hubris the ordained task of restoring order to the world at large. I had several. One in fact stands out. She was yelling at a student to shut up and sit down, oblivious to the projector behind her arcing electrical sparks and beginning to smoke.


The problem with your posts, Kav, is that they are often stream-of- consciousness rambles that frequently contain many good things, but when viewed as a whole, make little sense. The above is another example. In an effort to "understand" I'll respond as follows:



> quote:The problem Yckmwia is nobody really knows who, or what you are or believe.


I would hazard a guess that you have a pretty good idea what I don't believe. What more do you need?



> quote:The raison d'etre of this website is pretty clear. I've learned, through consensus and example I don't want a ventless, black suit, tietacks, matching tie and pocket square and a Calle lily for boutionier.


I donâ€™t care for any of this either. However, as this discussion is taking place on the Interchange, and not on the clothing forum, my taste in clothing, and yours, is entirely irrelevant.



> quote:This forum is less so. I've never once 'converted' someone to embrace firearms, 'The Caveman Diet' or radical environmentalism


Well, no harm in trying, I guess. I wouldn't dream of "converting" anyone to anything - unless it is an appreciation for _A Dance to the Music of Time._



> quote:We can throw naval braodsides all day about 'Shrub' or 'scary Kerry' too. That senseless exercise is like giving fingers on the freeway


I'm sure there a point to this, but it is beyond my ken. I recall mentioning George W. Bush once in recent months: when I defended his wearing a turndown collar with white tie on the grounds that he was obviously forced to do so by exigent circumstances. Its seems I was wrong. It figures. I have mentioned the current Administration several times, but that's not the same thing, is it? I don't recall ever mentioning John Kerry's name in any post. I certainly didnâ€™t vote for him.



> quote:In the end everybody is still going in a general anyway direction and ( hopefully) arrives safely.


God, I hope so. I think.



> quote: What I can do, hopefully do is present my values in a new light and give new points of debate, merit and investigation by those with different views.


I'll try to keep this in mind.



> quote:As such, it also helps to listen and gain same. I may be attacked. I may attack others.


Yes.



> quote: But at thread's end a modicum or respect should be given


Why?



> quote:But I don't see any respect in your posts.


You don't? What would you like to see? "I'm sorry, X, your views are ridiculous, and indicative of a profoundly ignorant and ill-informed mindset; but I respect them anyway, and I really didnâ€™t mean any of the mildly critical things I wrote." Something along those lines? And who is advocating hand-holding and visualizing world peace now?



> quote:You frankly remind me of that curious species of high school teacher, who after years teaching Geography to a captive and probationary class of citizens assume in their hubris the ordained task of restoring order to the world at large. I had several. One in fact stands out. She was yelling at a student to shut up and sit down, oblivious to the projector behind her arcing electrical sparks and beginning to smoke


Well I certainly can't help this. I'd also say this is your problem, not mine, but that would be not showing proper "respect," wouldn't it? This is a tricky business, to be sure.

But you're quite right about one thing: this bickering grows tiresome. Life is short. Iâ€™m off. Carry on.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

this in the ny times, by a dane. I found it disgusting

THERE seems to be some surprise that the Danish people and their government are standing behind the Jyllands-Posten newspaper and its decision to publish drawings of the Prophet Muhammad last fall. Aren't Danes supposed to be unusually tolerant and respectful of others?

Not entirely. Denmark's reputation as a nation with a long tradition of tolerance toward others â€” one solidified by its rescue of Danish Jews from deportation to Nazi concentration camps in 1943 and by the high levels of humanitarian aid it provides today â€” is something of a myth.

What foreigners have failed to recognize is that we Danes have grown increasingly xenophobic over the years. To my mind, the publication of the cartoons had little to do with generating a debate about self-censorship and freedom of expression. It can be seen only in the context of a climate of pervasive hostility toward anything Muslim in Denmark.

There are more than 200,000 Muslims in Denmark, a country with a population of 5.4 million. A few decades ago, Denmark had no Muslims at all. Not surprisingly, Islam has come to be viewed by many as a threat to the survival of Danish culture. 

For 20 years, Muslims in Denmark have been denied a permit to build mosques in Copenhagen. What's more, there are no Muslim cemeteries in Denmark, which means that the bodies of Muslims who die here have to be flown back to their home countries for proper burial.

Recently the minister for cultural affairs, Brian Mikkelsen of the Conservative People's Party, asked scholars, artists and writers to create a canon of Danish art, music, literature and film. The ostensible purpose was to preserve our homegrown classics. 

But before the release of the canon last month, Mr. Mikkelsen revealed what may have been the real purpose of the exercise: To create a last line of defense against the influence of Islam in Denmark. "In Denmark we have seen the appearance of a parallel society in which minorities practice their own medieval values and undemocratic views," he told fellow conservatives at a party conference last summer. "This is the new front in our cultural war." 

Were it not that a majority of Danes actually believe in this Islamic threat it would seem to be an outlandish pretext. But they do. When the Danish flag was burned on the streets in Arab countries, the reaction here was outrage and calls for standing even more firmly behind Jyllands-Posten. The center-right government gained support in polls, as did the anti-immigrant Danish People's Party, without which the government would not have a majority in Parliament. 

Now, the general view, expressed in the press and among a majority of Danes, is that the Muslim leaders who led the protests in Denmark should have their status as citizens examined because they betrayed their fellow Danes by failing to keep the controversy within the country. 

But the real story is that they and their followers ran out of options. They tried to get Jyllands-Posten to recognize its offense. They tried to enlist the support of the government and the opposition. They asked a local prosecutor to file suit under the country's blasphemy law. And they asked ambassadors in Denmark from Muslim countries to meet with Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen. They were rebuffed on all counts, though a state prosecutor is currently reviewing the case. But, really, what choice did they have?

This is not the only example of Denmark's new magical thinking. After the flag burnings, the Danish news media began to refer to the white cross on the flag's red background as a Christian symbol. 

There was something discordant about this, for we've come to connect the flag less and less to religion. Denmark, after all, is one of the most secular countries in Europe. Only 3 percent of Danes attend church once a week.

Still, the news media were right. Up to a point. Legend has it that the flag fell from heaven during a battle between the Danes and the Estonians nearly 800 years ago. It was a sign from God, and it led the Danes to victory. Now that flag has become a symbol around the world of Denmark's contempt for another world religion. 

Martin Burcharth is the United States correspondent for Information, a Danish newspaper.


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> 
> this in the ny times, by a dane. I found it disgusting


Same flavor as a lot of American opposition to Mexicn immigration, but ratcheted up. Furor over the possibility of 'losing American culture.' Which of course is a hodgpodge of hundreds of cultures all thrown together anyway. Maybe we've reached our limit on number of cultures that can be assimilated or something, I don't know. It's a good thing we have that history though. Europeans are orders of magnitude less willing to assimilate people who look different and more likely to react strongly to protect their own culture.

Tom


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> [ Europeans are orders of magnitude less willing to assimilate people who look different and more likely to react strongly to protect their own culture.


France has a rather good record for assimilating people who look different - provided they accept the rules, which includes keeping religion out of the public sphere. My neighbourhood has Poles (the first immigrants to arrive in the 1930s,Italians (1950s), North Africans, Subsaharan Africans, and Spanish (1960s), Portuguese (1970s), and recently Kurds, Turks, and Romanians. There is also a local population of German-speaking Gypsies. The Poles,Italians and Spanish have intermarried with the local French population and only their surnames now reveal their origins. The children of the first North African and Portuguese immigrants have also largely intermarried. The newly-arrived Kurds and Turks still tend to keep to themselves. Only the Gypsies live entirely outside the mainstream, as they have done for many generations. Any list of names such as a telephone directory shows a wide variety of names of non-French origin. France has the largest Muslim population in Europe (5 million). All this suggests that France is relatively tolerant of foreigners. I don't remember which of the Nazi theorists said that 3% was the maximum proportion of foreigners that a country could tolerate. The figure in France is more than 6% (foreign nationals). It is also relatively easy to get French nationality, compared with other European countries, particularly Germany.

There is, of course, concern about how well France wil be able to continue assimilating unskilled immigrant populations at a time when unemployment is running high.

See also:


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> There is, of course, concern about how well France wil be able to continue assimilating unskilled immigrant populations at a time when unemployment is running high.


Sometimes I think that economics may be the _real_ motivation behind unrest around the world, aside from a few 'true believers' of course.

DD


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So do I...


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Doctor Damage_
> Sometimes I think that economics may be the _real_ motivation behind unrest around the world, aside from a few 'true believers' of course.
> 
> DD


What kind of economics? Most suicide bombers/Muslim terrorists come from middle-class, educated backgrounds. To say nothing of OBL's millions.

Tom


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> What kind of economics? Most suicide bombers/Muslim terrorists come from middle-class, educated backgrounds. To say nothing of OBL's millions.


I think those are the 'true believers' who are dedicated to The Cause, etc. The huge numbers of people who get involved with protests, riots, civil unrest, etc., are just average Joes (or Ali's or Juan's) whose frustration with limited economic opportunities is being exploited for much more sinister ends. My post was simply a quick response to Rich's post about France, which reminded me of the inner-city unrest France experienced last fall.

DD


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, overall the Muslim world is characterised by low per capita income, enormous disparities in wealth and education, corrupt ruling elites, slow development, etc. Most of the immigrants to Europe have come for economic reasons, but because of their lack of skills are at the bottom end of the job market often in a context of high unemployment (e.g., France and Spain). Middle Eastern geopolitics is overshadowed by the need to safeguard the oil supply, which supports the Western economies... These things lead to unrest and fuel The Cause.


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## johnapril (Feb 8, 2006)

"any detective story is constructed on two murders of which the first, committed by the criminal, is only the occasion of the second, in which he is the victim of the pure, unpunishable murderer, the detective, who kills him, not only by one of those despicable means he was himself reduced to using, poison, the knife, a silent shot or twist of a silk stocking, but by the explosion of truth."

Michel Butor, Passing Time (1959)


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## dah328 (Sep 27, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, I think you're referring to opposition to Mexican illegal aliens, an altogether different thing than Mexican immigrants. Second, your statement about American culture being a hodgepodge of hundreds of cultures is a gross overstatement. Traditional American culture was a mix of a handful of primarily Western European cultures. Despite significant pockets of immigrants from other parts of the world at various points in our history, the culture remained one dominated by Western European customs. You could argue that that's a bad thing, but you can't claim that we have a history of assimilating hundreds of different cultures.

dan


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by dah328_
> First, I think you're referring to opposition to Mexican illegal aliens, an altogether different thing than Mexican immigrants. Second, your statement about American culture being a hodgepodge of hundreds of cultures is a gross overstatement. Traditional American culture was a mix of a handful of primarily Western European cultures. Despite significant pockets of immigrants from other parts of the world at various points in our history, the culture remained one dominated by Western European customs. You could argue that that's a bad thing, but you can't claim that we have a history of assimilating hundreds of different cultures.
> 
> dan


Not picking on anyone in particular, but there are plenty of people out there who favor not only restricting illegal immigration, but also low quotas on Mexico and Latin American countries, especially relative to quotas on European countries. What I'm mostly referring to though is that there has *always* been resistance to the new guy on the block, whether he was Native American or Irish or Italian or Chinese or Polish or Armenian. The new guy was always stealing jobs from 'real' Americans and degrading the moral fiber of America. Hundreds may have been an overstatement but the theory is sound. Call it dozens. I would draw distinctions among the Western European cultures, as well. Not so much between the British and the French, more like the difference between the Brits in first class and those in steerage.

Tom


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> Well, overall the Muslim world is characterised by low per capita income, enormous disparities in wealth and education, corrupt ruling elites, slow development, etc. Most of the immigrants to Europe have come for economic reasons, but because of their lack of skills are at the bottom end of the job market often in a context of high unemployment (e.g., France and Spain). Middle Eastern geopolitics is overshadowed by the need to safeguard the oil supply, which supports the Western economies... These things lead to unrest and fuel The Cause.


Even were I to grant you that charaterization, the same would go for large swaths of Central and South America, Africa, Carribean nations, Russia and non-Muslim Asia. None of those places spawn the hatred coming out of the ME right now. In fact, the relative wealth of the jihadists allow them to bring their fight to a transnational stage.

I'm a big believer in market forces and the idea that a goat herder who's fat and happy won't set a bomb, but we crossed a tipping point in the ME where cultural and religious factors are trumping money. My gut reaction from spending too much time around here (Kuwait and Iraq) is that anyone who needs money and can look past those issues is going somewhere that isn't so G-D hot.

Tom


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that one of the biggest problems we (and by that I mean the whole world, every little inch of humanity, if I can be so bold as to speak for all of us) have is that islamic culture doesn't really have a mechanism to explain why the "infadels" are doing better materially than the "believers".

think about this for a minute - christ was poor, and humble, and early christians died for their beliefs, jews have always been "outsiders" and don't make the connection between material wealth and power and piety, the eastern religions all have the concept of karma and re-incarnation to explain why you might be good and still poor. in islam, the religion developed as a religion of the conqurers, not the conquered - thoughout history 99 % of muslims have lived in places where they were the most powerful and richest people, or at least some other muslim was the richest most powerful person.

now, hundreds of millions of muslims see that christians, jews, hindus, budhists are better off than they are, materially. they see it when they travel, and they see it when they turn on the tv, and they see it when they migrate.

I think that this is causing a lot of the problem.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

> quote:_Originally posted by globetrotter_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A lot in that. The backwardness of the Arab world was first blamed on too much Islam (which produced the anti-colonial secular or communist aided and/or inspired national liberation fronts, Algeria Nasser, etc., none of which were really successful); now it is being blamed on not enough Islam (the present position of the islamic fundamentalists). Also, of course, the Arab world had a golden age, that Arabs today are justifiably proud of, during the Dark Ages when Europe was stagnating. The question "What went wrong?" has not found a satisfactory answer yet.

The Catholic cultural traditions in South and Central America are maybe more conducive to turn-the-other-cheek fatalism and heavenly recompense (the last shall be the first,etc.).


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## dah328 (Sep 27, 2003)

> quote:_Originally posted by tiger02_
> 
> What I'm mostly referring to though is that there has *always* been resistance to the new guy on the block, whether he was Native American or Irish or Italian or Chinese or Polish or Armenian. The new guy was always stealing jobs from 'real' Americans and degrading the moral fiber of America. Hundreds may have been an overstatement but the theory is sound. Call it dozens. I would draw distinctions among the Western European cultures, as well. Not so much between the British and the French, more like the difference between the Brits in first class and those in steerage.


You can certainly point out distinctions among Western European cultures, but although the US managed to form some sort of moderately coherent culture from a handful of those does not mean that it would be equally successful in forming a coherent culture using cultures from Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Western European cultures, for the most part, had very similar social structures and customs. Asian and Middle Eastern cultures are dramatically different.

dan


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by Rich_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rich, there are two serious problems with a "believing" muslim and business - because mohamed was a merchant, he addresses business issues in the koran; also, the koran has no good mechanism for interpretation - for instance, you really shouldn't take collatoral for a loan in judeism, but that has been interpreted out of the law. ditto from christianity. in islam, there isn't that mechanism.

so, while 500 years ago the laws they had made for humane and smart business, there are a few laws that limit the economic activites, that for a believing muslim it is difficult to get around. the biggest are the problem of taking interest and partnerships and corporations - a business can't outlive a partner, at one shareholders death, the corportation should be restructured. these are just two examples.

now that more and more muslims are becoming religious this is effecting the economy.


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## tiger02 (Dec 12, 2004)

> quote:_Originally posted by dah328_
> You can certainly point out distinctions among Western European cultures, but although the US managed to form some sort of moderately coherent culture from a handful of those does not mean that it would be equally successful in forming a coherent culture using cultures from Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Western European cultures, for the most part, had very similar social structures and customs. Asian and Middle Eastern cultures are dramatically different.
> 
> dan


Dan, I think this is where we agree to disagree. I believe that the nature of American society will allow for successful assimilation, and I think that the relative lack of uproar over the Mohammed cartoons supports that (but doesn't prove it). It might be because only the Muslims who are most willing to be assimilated are coming to America, or other unknown reasons.

Tom


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