# Loafers Dissected - the $482 difference



## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

I found this article on the manufacturing differences between weejuns and more expensive good loafers. Taking a page from our own Doctor Damage, they dissect both, and then compare.

The JM Weston makes the LHS in cordovan seem a lot more reasonably priced.

https://nymag.com/guides/everything/shoes/27345/


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## Northeastern (Feb 11, 2007)

Interesting, especially for someone like me who doesn't know much about shoe construction to begin with.


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## Duck (Jan 4, 2007)

Really enjoyed that article. Thanks.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Tom Buchanan said:


> The JM Weston makes the LHS in cordovan seem a lot more reasonably priced.


And the calfskin LHS seem a positive bargain.

Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.

EGF


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

TB-
Thank you for posting the article


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## Northeastern (Feb 11, 2007)

egadfly said:


> And the calfskin LHS seem a positive bargain.
> 
> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.
> 
> EGF


I wear a calf LHS Alden for BB that I recently acquired from eBay. It's quickly become my favorite shoe even though it's black and not brown (I don't really care for black shoes).


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## Tucker (Apr 17, 2006)

egadfly said:


> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.


I have them in burgundy and wear them once every other week or so. 'Nice' is the correct term. Not shell, of course, but still nice.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

egadfly said:


> And the calfskin LHS seem a positive bargain.
> 
> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.
> 
> EGF


Earlier this fall I was thinking about buying _another_ pair of Brooks LHS, but lately I've been warming to the idea of owning a pair of 984's. Check this:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=60237

Note Mac's advice on the initial wearing of 986s.

I suspect that 984s and 986s are much more complimentary to each other than we usually admit. That's how it is with my 563s and 663s - different shoes, different mindset per pair.

BTW, thanks for the article, Tom. I'm sure we all suspected as much!


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

egadfly said:


> And the calfskin LHS seem a positive bargain.
> 
> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.
> 
> EGF


I have a pair of Alden/JAB burgundy calf tassel loafers--handsewn vamp, but with side lace detailing a la Alden 563/663...have held up well over the past 17-1/2 years...what's there not to like?

hbs


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Great article, thanks for posting it.

Looks like someone crossed the 1000 post barrier 

Brian


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

egadfly said:


> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.


I live in mine.

And pardon my pedantry, but begging the question is actually a logical fallacy, not the same as raising the question. :teacha:


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

AlanC said:


> And pardon my pedantry, but begging the question is actually a logical fallacy, not the same as raising the question.


I'm aware of the distinction, thanks. What color are your Aldens?

EGF


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Burgundy calf.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

egadfly said:


> And the calfskin LHS seem a positive bargain.
> 
> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.
> 
> EGF


I've got a pair of black ones procured for $35 via E-bay. I love mine.

Call me a heretic. I just can't justify paying for shell cordovan shoes when there's so many other cool things in the world to spend money on - guns, tools, books, travel, parts for British motorcycles and cars...

Scott


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## enecks (Apr 25, 2007)

Naval Gent said:


> Call me a heretic. I just can't justify paying for shell cordovan shoes when there's so many other cool things in the world to spend money on ... parts for British motorcycles and cars...
> 
> Scott


Alas, a voice of reason in a sea of gents shod in horsehide.

(Not that I don't covet, of course.)


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Tom Buchanan said:


> I found this article on the manufacturing differences between weejuns and more expensive good loafers. Taking a page from our own Doctor Damage, they dissect both, and then compare.
> 
> The JM Weston makes the LHS in cordovan seem a lot more reasonably priced.
> 
> https://nymag.com/guides/everything/shoes/27345/


This kind of post is one of the things we really like about you, TB - Happy 1000th, and many happy returns.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

egadfly said:


> And the calfskin LHS seem a positive bargain.
> 
> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.
> 
> EGF


I've got some in black, bought in my pre-AAAT days. I mostly wear them with jeans. One day I'll pick up a navy poplin suit to wear with them.

Black shoes don't get much respect these days, but I think they look great in the old movies. Thinking of George Peppard in Breakfast at Tiffanies (a gigolo can't afford to look like a slouch). Black shoes with shortish uncuffed pants. It looks good.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

LongWing said:


> Black shoes don't get much respect these days...


I'm a rebel, baby. I wear my unrespected and unloved black calf Aldens with a pair of despised BB navy chinos. How's that for a walk on the wild side?

Scott


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Naval Gent said:


> I'm a rebel, baby. I wear my unrespected and unloved black calf Aldens with a pair of despised BB navy chinos. How's that for a walk on the wild side?
> 
> Scott


Trad gone bad.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

bd79cc said:


> This kind of post is one of the things we really like about you, TB - Happy 1000th, and many happy returns.


Wow. I am going to have to work to find more good material to post now, rather than my usual shoot-from-the-hip posts.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Naval Gent said:


> I'm a rebel, baby. I wear my unrespected and unloved black calf Aldens with a pair of despised BB navy chinos. Scott


I have three pair of those despised BB navy chinos hanging in my closet and, as to the black calf Aldens...burgunday perhaps but black, never!


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

Naval Gent said:


> I'm a rebel, baby. I wear my unrespected and unloved black calf Aldens with a pair of despised BB navy chinos. How's that for a walk on the wild side?
> 
> Scott


^ +1 I like that look. Also I wear my alden 987 with my navy khakis


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

egadfly said:


> And the calfskin LHS seem a positive bargain.
> 
> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.
> 
> EGF


I wear the tan (983) and #8 shell. A tan to mid-brown grained leather would be a great addition.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Northeastern said:


> Interesting, especially for someone like me who doesn't know much about shoe construction to begin with.


Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not sure how that fellow became a professor of something or other, but perhaps he is an expert on outsourcing. Personally, I'd happily pay the Weston price since the materials and construction are much superior to the Weejuns. The article doesn't quite make that clear, or rather doesn't come to any conclusion at all (which is too nihilistic for me). The Weejuns are tough shoes and look good, but are simply not in the same league as the Westons.

Thanks Tom, for finding that article. Seeing the Weejuns torn apart reminded me of the one I dismantled. Very instructive experience and I recommend it to anyone with an old pair of shoes that are too small or otherwise un-usable.

DocD


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

egadfly said:


> Which begs a question: who here wears the Alden calf penny loafer? It doesn't get much love here, but it's certainly a nice shoe.
> 
> EGF


I suspect the LHS would be "just another shoe" if it was not offered in cordovan. Assume for a moment that the shell #8 did not exist, then there are dozens of fine calfskin penny loafers out there.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

What great insight, Damage. I couldn't agree more with your observations. Now if you will please tell me why it is that I am equally attracted to both ends of the spectrum--the relatively cheap Bass Weejuns, offered at fiffty dollars, and the high priced Alden shells, in particular those offered at Brooks Brother stores, I would be most appreciative. I'm on a quest to know myself better.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> I suspect the LHS would be "just another shoe" if it was not offered in cordovan. Assume for a moment that the shell #8 did not exist, then there are dozens of fine calfskin penny loafers out there.





A.Squire said:


> Now if you will please tell me why it is that I am equally attracted to both ends of the spectrum--the relatively cheap Bass Weejuns, offered at fiffty dollars, and the high priced Alden shells, in particular those offered at Brooks Brother stores, I would be most appreciative.


I think I see what you guys are getting at.

I myself wouldn't buy the LHS in calfskin, not because it isn't a nice shoe -- it is one -- but because the shell version is simply a different beast entirely. When I want a casual loafer, I reach for my old Weejuns; but when I feel like raising the bar a bit, it's the Aldens.

Neither is a replacement for the other, though it would certainly be nice if someone were selling a shoe with the same quality and styling as as my old (circa mid-80's) Weejuns for under $200. That would really fill a hole.

For a while there was a flurry of enthusiasm about the Russell Moc loafers, but no one seems to have them, or at least to talk about them.

EGF


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## gruven (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *A.Squire* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=664500#post664500
> _Now if you will please tell me why it is that I am equally attracted to both ends of the spectrum--the relatively cheap Bass Weejuns, offered at fiffty dollars, and the high priced Alden shells, in particular those offered at Brooks Brother stores, I would be most appreciative._


As a family man, you can appreciate the value of a Toyota. It gets you to the office, carts the kids to practice, etc. It looks good, it's reliable, it's a Toyota.

_However,_ who wouldn't rather be driving a Turbo 911 Cabriolet, top down, with the wind in your hair and your tie pinned to the head rest? (Your collar ought to stay buttoned and behaved.) Oh yeah, and wearing these:


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## BPH (Mar 19, 2007)

Interesting article - thanks for sharing


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

egadfly said:


> I think I see what you guys are getting at.
> 
> For a while there was a flurry of enthusiasm about the Russell Moc loafers, but no one seems to have them, or at least to talk about them.
> 
> EGF


I have a pair that have been sitting unworn in my closet for about 6 months. They seem to aim to be about as casual as Bass. Leather seems thicker and less plastic. Hard to believe the construction isn't better but I'm not willing to take them apart to find out.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

AldenPyle said:


> I have a pair that have been sitting unworn in my closet for about 6 months. They seem to aim to be about as casual as Bass. Leather seems thicker and less plastic. Hard to believe the construction isn't better but I'm not willing to take them apart to find out.


Assuming Russell makes their moc loafers in the same manner that they make their upland game boots, you have quite a well made pair of loafers sitting in your closet. Even with hard wear, they should be part of your shoe rotation for quite some time to come!


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

AldenPyle said:


> I have a pair that have been sitting unworn in my closet for about 6 months.


Please explain.


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

LongWing said:


> Please explain.


When I went to the factory, they had returns in my size at El Salvador made Weejuns prices. So I stocked up.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

AldenPyle said:


> I have a pair that have been sitting unworn in my closet for about 6 months. They seem to aim to be about as casual as Bass. Leather seems thicker and less plastic. Hard to believe the construction isn't better but I'm not willing to take them apart to find out.


Interesting. Did you have them custom-made? If not, could you comment on the sizing (assuming you've worn them)?

EGF


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## AldenPyle (Oct 8, 2006)

I took the Russell loafers down to look at them and compare with the Weejuns and the Weston dissected in the article. 

By all visible criteria, the Russell is closer to the Weejun than the Weston. Its not calf, it has a moccasin construction, it is unlined with a skinny counter, no attempt has been made to hide stitching anywhere, heel is rubber. The biggest difference is that the Russell has a double oak sole. 

Russell makes no particular claims for the quality of the leather. I assume that it is better to have your loafer sewn by an experienced fella at a small shop in Berlin, Wisconsin than by a young migrant worker at a plant in San Salvador, but that remains to be seen. 

I did not get custom shoes. I went to the factory to order some boat shoes, but they happened to have some that fit me pretty much perfect and custom making takes 4 months! (If the yen appreciates expect that to be 6 months). The seconds/return/overrun loafers were a happy after thought. 

On fitting, the guy at the factory said that in general Russell sizing runs long and the shoes that I got were no exception. Probably your best fit would be to size down 1/2 in length and size up one letter in width.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

I am planning to take a look at some Weston loafers next week. Like Patrick (well sort of) I am on the quest for the perfect loafers. The requirements, after good fit, is a design which never changes and a variety of different colours and materials, allowing me to keep buying two pairs per year of the same shoe for the next 20 years. Alden came close, but the fit just isn't there for me; AE keeps changing their models every couple of years; Church's doesn't stock most of their shoes in a variety of colours/materials so one has to deal with weird online suppliers.

Fingers crossed!

DD


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

^ good luck. Please keep us updated


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## ds23pallas (Aug 22, 2006)

I would be interested in your comments as well. I tried on some John Lobb loafers a month or so ago and was disappointed with the fit. I did look at the Weston 180 (I think that is their "classic" penny loafer) in Stockholm a year or so ago but I can't recall if I tried it on or not. DD, if the shop you are at has the Weston tassel loafer, would you mind giving that your expert review as well?

ds23pallas


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## nobody (Oct 26, 2007)

*I would be curious to hear your reaction as well -*

Your thread on loafer types in the other forum, was very interesting. I'm a long time owner and fan of both the LHS and the JMW 180s, and while I love both, I really think the Weston is a superior shoe, though the prices on them have gotten too high.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Naval Gent said:


> I've got a pair of black ones procured for $35 via E-bay. I love mine.
> 
> Call me a heretic. I just can't justify paying for shell cordovan shoes when there's so many other cool things in the world to spend money on - guns, tools, books, travel, parts for British motorcycles and cars...
> 
> Scott


After having read so many postings about the awesomely incredibly wonderful qualities of shell cordovan, particularly the Alden 684 that I finally succumbed to the siren's song and bought (at retail, yet) a pair. I spent enough time in the store to make certain of the fit, bought the shoes and took them home. It took just about a week of wearing for me to realize these were, possibly, the least comfortable shoes I had ever worn! One might argue that I didn't give them a chance to get really broken in, to which I would respond, I am disinclined to cripple myself just to break in a pair of shoes when I can buy a pair of AE calfskin or, as I recently did, a pair of Paul Stuart calfskin loafers, put them on and wear them in complete comfort. As far as longevity, supposedly a hallmark of shell cordovan, I am wearing a pair of AE Coles in calf that I purchased in 1984, so these shoes are approaching a quarter-century of life, with one recrafting. That's longevity enough for me. So I must agree that the money for shells is, to me, money poorly spent.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

rip said:


> As far as longevity, supposedly a hallmark of shell cordovan, I am wearing a pair of AE Coles in calf that I purchased in 1984, so these shoes are approaching a quarter-century of life, with one recrafting. That's longevity enough for me. So I must agree that the money for shells is, to me, money poorly spent.


Good calf I imagine should last a long, long time. Even the calfskin used in bargain basement Weejuns is tough and appears to be nigh indestructable.



nobody said:


> Your thread on loafer types in the other forum, was very interesting. I'm a long time owner and fan of both the LHS and the JMW 180s, and while I love both, I really think the Weston is a superior shoe, though the prices on them have gotten too high.


That would be my conclusion as well, both on the quality and the price issue. I finally had a chance to take a close look at the Weston 180 earlier this week at a men's store in Toronto. Yes, the price was steep (C$695) and I think they should shave a hundred bucks off, but then Canada has confiscatory import duties so that's a part of the price. This store only had the black calfskin version in F widths, which looked as wide as pancakes and are probably comparable to EE in American shoes.

In terms of design, the 180s is very similar to the Alden LHS, so I think comparing the two is quite appropriate. No really, I was struck by the similarities. I will try to post some photos tomorrow when I have more time, but in overall last shape, proportions, etc. the 180 and the LHS are kissing cousins. The 180 is slightly more quirky in design details, sort of like old Citreons and whatnot--quirky & weird, but also charming and elegant. The heel is higher than the Alden and doesn't have the 180-degree welt.

In terms of quality, I think the 180 pulls ahead since the Weston calfskin (they have their own in-house tannery, apparently) is far better than the Alden calfskin. Of course, Alden always has its ace-in-the-hole: number 8 shell cordovan. Which kind of puts the LHS up in the big leagues and lets it punch above its weight (something I argued, I hope successfully, in that harrowing Fashion Forum thread...uugh bad memories). But calfskin to calfskin, the 180 is made of clearly better materials. Detailing is also better on the 180, with finer stitching, etc., and underneath the welt stitching is hidden in a glued channel and the nailed heel is simply better executed. Setting aside the wonderful luster of cordovan, I have to consider the 180 to be the "better" shoe, although for most people here it's a lot harder to find and significantly more expensive. Like Alden, Weston offers these things in a multitude of colours and materials (I could probably special order red suede, if I wanted) including some really nice classic browns.

I liked them. I'm still gonna save up for those JLP Lopez loafers when I visit Montreal this autumn, but if they don't fit then I'll try the Westons. And if _those_ don't fit then I guess it's another pair of Weejuns or Gucci.

DD


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## Intrepid (Feb 20, 2005)

*Recrafting*

As you consider alternatives, there is no doubt that the 986 seems to be the gold standard.

There is another thing to think about. If you get 986s you will keep them for a long time. At some point, you have to get new soles. There is always the chance that the local cobbler will screw up the last. Shell is really hard to work with because of the lack of stretch, as I understand it.

Just got a pair of 9 year old 986s back from Alden, that were recrafted. They are as good as new, plus trees and shoe bags.

I'm not familiar with other manufacturers recrafting, but it seems like Alden makes the 986 consideration compelling, if you are going to put that much into shoes.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

I can see there is little point in discussing alternatives around here, now that this has become the Official Alden Forum. *AAAT* = *A*ll *A*lden *A*ll the *T*ime ?

Anyhoo, here's a photo of a pair of Weston 180s from eBay. I think it illustrates how similar these are in proportions to the Alden LHS, although as I've already noted design details differ. I particularly like that colour.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

^ I like those.

What is the thinking behind the quest, DD? Two pairs per year for 20 years? It sounds laudable, or it would if I understood the reasoning.

My approach is to buy haphazardly, make endless mistakes and waste a lot of time and money. Brilliant.


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## The Continental Fop (Jan 12, 2007)

Great, so you're an auto-contrarian. Not a position that requires much knowledge or acumen. Just zigging when others zag. Not terribly helpful, or germane to any substantive discussion.

Maybe, just maybe, there's a lot of Alden chatter here because gee, I don't know, once you get to a certain point after trying most shoes out there, you find that Aldens are indeed the gold standard when it comes to loafers.

Nawww. Better to keep talking out of your ass.



Doctor Damage said:


> I can see there is little point in discussing alternatives around here, now that this has become the Official Alden Forum. *AAAT* = *A*ll *A*lden *A*ll the *T*ime ?
> 
> Anyhoo, here's a photo of a pair of Weston 180s from eBay. I think it illustrates how similar these are in proportions to the Alden LHS, although as I've already noted design details differ. I particularly like that colour.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

The Continental Fop said:


> Maybe, just maybe, there's a lot of Alden chatter here because gee, I don't know, once you get to a certain point after trying most shoes out there, you find that Aldens are indeed the gold standard when it comes to loafers.


You say this as if it's a universal experience and there were a set of objective and agreed upon criteria by which Alden could be named the gold standard.



The Continental Fop said:


> Great, so you're an auto-contrarian. Not a position that requires much knowledge or acumen. Just zigging when others zag. Not terribly helpful, or germane to any substantive discussion.


And yet Doctor D has contributed an incredible amount of research and perspective on footwear that has been helpful to the members of this forum.


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

I'm going to ignore the crude comments made regarding DD's thoughtful remarks. He is one of the few remaining forum members whose contributions are actually worthwhile. There is no reason to attack him.

On fit -- FWIW, not a single pair of Aldens (calf or shell) that I've ever worn has been comfortable under 20-30 wearings. Each pair of the JMW 180s which I've tried (I've tried them on a 5 or 6 occasions, but never pulled the trigger) has been slipper-comfortable right out of the box. DocD, the eBay picture you posted is gorgeous.


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Great article,Tom. The guy who manages Weston in NY is a good 'un. Patient and he really knows his product as well as the competition. Hopefully, this article will see him very busy.

What I really like about this simple description is -- it's so simple. I've read descriptions of shoe making (here and elsewhere) and without the pictures I'm totally lost and confused. This answers a lot.

Only one thing the magazine missed and I intend on doing this for my blog. The real test. Walk a mile in each pair of these and do comparison. I purchased some Cole Haans made in India (I didn't look) and they were without doubt the most uncomfortable pieces of crap.

www.thetrad.blogspot.com


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## The Continental Fop (Jan 12, 2007)

Sorry, but you insult researchers when you attach this verb to someone who equates cutting and pasting web pics, and going by 3rd-party descriptions, in lieu of actually placing his hands (and feet) on any of the shoes under discussion. The perspective and opinions of someone who has owned and worn but a single pair of Aldens in his entire life are of far greater value than the entirety of DD's bloviation on the subject. And I don't apologize for the fact that I'm tired of reading Alden bashing from a know-nothing. 

You know what? BMW cars do very little for me. I've test-driven them when researching new car purchases, sat down with experts, given them a fair shake. I simply prefer other cars more. But even though I've done far more actual research into this area than DD has when it comes to Alden, I would never go onto a car nerd forum and bash BMWs. I'm just nowhere near as experienced or knowledgeable enough to spout off with any self-respecting authority. I'd rather hear from guys who've owned BMWs or at least know the cars first-hand. Not trolls who just pore over the auto mags, soak up the bloviae, and regurge the combined slurry as their own opinion. 



"And yet Doctor D has contributed an incredible amount of research and perspective on footwear that has been helpful to the members of this forum." Sheesh.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Doctor Damage said:


> I can see there is little point in discussing alternatives around here, now that this has become the Official Alden Forum. *AAAT* = *A*ll *A*lden *A*ll the *T*ime ?
> 
> Anyhoo, here's a photo of a pair of Weston 180s from eBay. I think it illustrates how similar these are in proportions to the Alden LHS, although as I've already noted design details differ. I particularly like that colour.


These are downright handsome loafers, very. When I saw them I did a double-take reading your post -- I had thought they WERE Aldens.

I apologize for the continental flop comments from my fellow New Yorker, who probably should find a mom or two and celebrate mother's day somehow, or at least re-acquaint himself with a sense of humor.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

DD-
I greatly appreciate your comment and thoughts. Looking forward to your next post


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

^ What mac said.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

DD: I too have certainly learned a great deal from your research and resultant postings and look forward to your future efforts, though I admittedly am an 'Alden' hugger! :icon_smile:


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## The Continental Fop (Jan 12, 2007)

Hey guys, I've learned a good deal from you as well. Eagle, Patrick, Mac especially on the subject of the care and feeding of shell -- I'm indebted to you all for your hands-on knowledge and willingness to share useful information.

I haven't, however, learned anything whatsover from the gentleman who opines about subjects with which he has absolutely no personal experience save hypothetical "fantasy baseball" type predictions along the lines of "this loafer is better than that loafer because this photo looks better than that photo, and it costs twice as much, and fewer people in a certain city can be seen wearing them" etc. Purely as shoe porn, I can see how someone who culls pics from shoe sites and reposts them here would be a welcome presence in a sort of eye candyish role. But "research"? Please. A first-time Alden owner who reports that his shoes feel tight across the instep has done more actual research than the sum total of DD's posts on the subject. 

I always appreciate when a member here relates his firsthand experience with a product. That's good, solid data. THAT is research. The kind of commentary that's led me to investigate and enjoy the products of brands like Quoddy, Mercer, Spirit of Shetland, and others. But pasted 3rd-party pics and mindless conjecture? Please. In the absence of any real first-hand experience, they do not entitle someone to bash any brand, especially one with such an earned pedigree as Alden's. Be supportive of your internet buddy if you wish, but let's not blur the issues of personal affection and calling an ass an ass when it brays like an ass.


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## qwerty (Jun 24, 2005)

And why exactly is one's knowledge of tight vamp fit on a pair of 986s preferable to the detailed understanding of penny loafer aesthetics DocD has developed and imparted on this forum?


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## hbecklin (Aug 22, 2007)

Dear Sirs,

You were all discussing a relevant topic with many an answer: Quality and Price and their relevance are very interesting and I would encourage you to discuss this to greater extent.

However, The Continental Fop is corrupting the spirit of this forum. I do, wholeheartedly believe that:

1. All who choose to post on this forum are doing so for their own personal enlightenment or the enlightenment of others.

2. Many forumites ARE more experienced than others-- and therefore are more able to speak to certain ideas.

3. No person would post something on this forum which they themselves believe to be misleading or incorrect.

4. There are many things which can be said about a particular product or brand which apply to all or many of their offerings.

I do believe that Doctor Damage has much experience with shoes. I have seen many pictures of his PERSONAL shoe collection, and do believe his experience is enviable.

There are many types, styles, and brands of shoes out there. DD has helped me, through many of his posts, understand many of them with his eye for quality and particular experience with brands.

DD has contributed extensively to this forum and deserves our highest praise and respect. His post count is laudable, as is his degree of research and thoughtful consideration.

I would discourage such attacks, especially in a forum dedicated to dandiacal matters. I would urge those who had much to say about shoe construction to be undaunted by Fop's rant.

All Best,

HBecklin


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## The Continental Fop (Jan 12, 2007)

You know what? The Ayes have it. It's clear that I have misjudged the intent and desires of this thread and its participants. I apologize for the interruption, and I won't comment again.


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## hbecklin (Aug 22, 2007)

The Continental Fop,

You, sir, are a gentleman, as was obvious by your previous post. Any perceived Ad Hominum attack on you was purely fictional.

Regards,

HBecklin


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> I can see there is little point in discussing alternatives around here, now that this has become the Official Alden Forum. *AAAT* = *A*ll *A*lden *A*ll the *T*ime ?
> 
> Anyhoo, here's a photo of a pair of Weston 180s from eBay. I think it illustrates how similar these are in proportions to the Alden LHS, although as I've already noted design details differ. I particularly like that colour.


These look really good, DD. They're laid out almost exactly like the Alden LHS, but have the close-finished heel and squared-off tongue seen on the Crockett & Jones Harvard, plus the larger more elaborate top strap cutout from the Japanese LHS. Note the high arch and the generous forefoot width. This is a shoe meant to have lots of interior volume. Very cool!


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

bd79cc said:


> They're laid out almost exactly like the Alden LHS, but have the close-finished heel and squared-off tongue seen on the Crockett & Jones Harvard, plus the larger more elaborate top strap cutout from the Japanese LHS. Note the high arch and the generous forefoot width. This is a shoe meant to have lots of interior volume. Very cool!


Interesting observations. These certainly have some odd details and yet I think they mix together to look good. I was certainly struck by the similarity to the LHS when I saw them.



Patrick06790 said:


> What is the thinking behind the quest, DD? Two pairs per year for 20 years? It sounds laudable, or it would if I understood the reasoning.
> 
> My approach is to buy haphazardly, make endless mistakes and waste a lot of time and money. Brilliant.


That's what I've been doing, but I have to stop! Too many miscalculations. When all is said and done I will probably just buy a pair of Weejuns or SAS loafers and move on with other things in life (like familyman).

Here's a few more photos of the Weston 180, culled from eBay. No more, I promise. Hopefully someone who owns both the 180 and the LHS will appear and comment.

https://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copyofweston51asz0.jpg https://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copyofweston51brr0.jpg https://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copyofweston51cry1.jpg https://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copyofweston51fjs5.jpg

DD


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

One of the reasons to read an internet forum is to find out about products or services of which one was not previously aware. That's why I and others post about products or services which we find but that we may not own or use: to put options out there for our fellow forum members, options which they can then research further if they are interested. I offered my observations and general assessment of the Weston 180 loafers because I know they are not widely available in North America and most of our members probably are not near a store which sells them. I see that Tom at LeatherSoul has announced he will be selling Weston shoes in the future so I think it's worth talking about them. They're another option that may be appropriate for some of our members.

I stand by my observations and the assessments I made based on those observations, in this thread and in others. I think I have peppered my previous posts with enough "I think"s to get the point across that I am offering opinions. I'm certain most forum members know enough to take them or leave them. And I'm certain everyone knows by now that I love poking fun at the LHS fans and their near-fanatical love of those shoes. But I'm just poking fun.

As for research, I encourage each and every one of our members to talk about what they know, and if no one seems to know about something, then make some observations and some assessments that we can discuss or debate or disprove as we gather more knowledge. I recognize there is no substitute for "walking a mile in each pair of these and doing a comparison" (good one, tintin) but until someone actually does that then a little speculation and dreaming is harmless.

DD


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## tintin (Nov 19, 2004)

Dr D, I guess that's why I've been coming back here for some time. Well said, sir. A quick question...If I do the comparison test and post it on my blog... can I deduct the cost of the shoes from my taxes? I mean if Marvin Shanken can get away with this on wine and cigars--why can't I.

www.thetrad.blogspot.com


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

*True Confessions*



Naval Gent said:


> Call me a heretic. I just can't justify paying for shell cordovan shoes when there's so many other cool things in the world to spend money on - guns, tools, books, travel, parts for British motorcycles and cars...
> 
> Scott





rip said:


> After having read so many postings about the awesomely incredibly wonderful qualities of shell cordovan, particularly the Alden 684 that I finally succumbed to the siren's song and bought (at retail, yet) a pair. I spent enough time in the store to make certain of the fit, bought the shoes and took them home. It took just about a week of wearing for me to realize these were, possibly, the least comfortable shoes I had ever worn! One might argue that I didn't give them a chance to get really broken in, to which I would respond, I am disinclined to cripple myself just to break in a pair of shoes when I can buy a pair of AE calfskin or, as I recently did, a pair of Paul Stuart calfskin loafers, put them on and wear them in complete comfort. As far as longevity, supposedly a hallmark of shell cordovan, I am wearing a pair of AE Coles in calf that I purchased in 1984, so these shoes are approaching a quarter-century of life, with one recrafting. That's longevity enough for me. So I must agree that the money for shells is, to me, money poorly spent.


OK, I lied. Well, not lied maybe, just changed my mind. As of today I own the 986s. But I've been busting my butt putting in military days every other weekend, so I have a cash windfall and no time to play at any of my other hobbies. And my 10 year old AE Camerons are tearing out at the top seam and splitting on the side (just the left one - go figure that out) So I needed loafers. And I got 10% off from J Press. How much more justification does one man need? As the Filson Company says, "Might as well have the best". Good value for the money? Ask me in a few years.

Scott

BTW, I tried three different sizes to find the best fit. Ended up 1/2 size down from my "measured" size. Same width.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

Naval Gent said:


> OK, I lied. Well, not lied maybe, just changed my mind. As of today I own the 986s. But I've been busting my butt putting in military days every other weekend, so I have a cash windfall and no time to play at any of my other hobbies. And my 10 year old AE Camerons are tearing out at the top seam and splitting on the side (just the left one - go figure that out) So I needed loafers. And I got 10% off from J Press. How much more justification does one man need? As the Filson Company says, "Might as well have the best". Good value for the money? Ask me in a few years.
> 
> Scott
> 
> BTW, I tried three different sizes to find the best fit. Ended up 1/2 size down from my "measured" size. Same width.


Good shopping. Enjoy wearing


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> One of the reasons to read an internet forum is to find out about products or services of which one was not previously aware. That's why I and others post about products or services which we find but that we may not own or use:
> 
> ...As for research, I encourage each and every one of our members to talk about what they know, and if no one seems to know about something, then make some observations and some assessments that we can discuss or debate or disprove as we gather more knowledge. I recognize there is no substitute for "walking a mile in each pair of these and doing a comparison" (good one, tintin) but until someone actually does that then a little speculation and dreaming is harmless.
> 
> DD


DD not only shares the results of his Internet research, but has also given legs to his efforts and has indeed walked a mile in some pretty unusual offerings. If my memory serves correctly, he is one of just a few members electing to navigate the linguistically and administratively challenging process required to acquire a pair of Aurlander Camp Mocs, allegedly, "The Mother of all Weejuns," and shared the results of his findings with the rest of us. I am eagerly looking forward to his future posts, as he continues to "dream and speculate"! But, don't dare poke fun at my LHSs! :icon_smile_wink:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Naval Gent said:


> OK, I lied. Well, not lied maybe, just changed my mind. As of today I own the 986s. But I've been busting my butt putting in military days every other weekend, so I have a cash windfall and no time to play at any of my other hobbies...
> Scott...


Scott: You'd better schedule in as many extra 'mandays' as possible. The 'curse of the horses arse' is a demanding and expensive mistress!


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

^ NG, best of luck with the new shoes.

TJS


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## Hobson (Mar 13, 2007)

The 'curse of the horses arse' is a demanding and expensive mistress! [/quote]

Words that should be engraved in gold.


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

All the loafer I need:








Just came back from the cobbler with new halfsoles and combination heels. Couldn't be happier. $40/year is all it takes to keep me in comfortable penny loafers.


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