# engineering social distance



## sjm (Oct 6, 2007)

Is there a way in which to engineer social distance without incurring grievous insult? 

Is there a way to, say, drag a relationship from an inappropriate first-name basis, back to titles and surnames, without the modern day equivalent of slapping someone silly with one's kid gloves? Can one establish social distance kindly, just by being gently forceful and insisting upon addressing the well-intended oik as 'Mister Smith' rather than Jimmie while he calls you by your first name?

Or are we damned? Is the choice always between the lowest social common denominator, and the equivalent of popping one's monocle while one's manservant thrashes the poor whelp within an inch of his life?

are we so far gone that tradition cannot be protected without it appearing to be a calculated affront?


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

sjm said:


> Is there a way in which to engineer social distance without incurring grievous insult?
> 
> Is there a way to, say, drag a relationship from an inappropriate first-name basis, back to titles and surnames, without the modern day equivalent of slapping someone silly with one's kid gloves? Can one establish social distance kindly, just by being gently forceful and insisting upon addressing the well-intended oik as 'Mister Smith' rather than Jimmie while he calls you by your first name?


It depends, I suppose, on what social encounter you're considering.

If at the ballpark, I wouldn't insist someone call me "Dr." At work, I might.

"Mister" is a bit different, given that, on some level, we're all "Misters" - ergo, no "social difference" is necessary.


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## cglex (Oct 23, 2006)

Become a trial attorney and you can use titles all day long.


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

One of the women I work with refuses to call our PHD customers Doctor. She says "they don't save lives so they're not worthy to be called a doctor." The boss has explained to her that she has to call them that if they insist but she refuses to. Society really has gone to the dogs.

When I was a child I remember calling a relative by their first name. My mother slapped me so hard I fell down. I never called any adult by their name again. I truly believe that it's the parents who teach us what to do.

I sent my kids to parochial grade schools, very formal. My son goes to a Jesuit prep school for the same reason. Absolutley no one uses first names. Even out of school the kids adhere to the rules they learned at school. You can't believe how many compliments my wife and I get on our son. People can't believe how well mannered and mature he is. Upbringing and schooling have everything to do with it.

Well, I'm done with my thesis. :icon_smile_big:


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

sjm said:


> Is there a way in which to engineer social distance without incurring grievous insult?
> 
> . . .
> 
> are we so far gone that tradition cannot be protected without it appearing to be a calculated affront?


It actually sounds as though you're asking how to give a calculated affront without suffering any consequence for doing so.

The desire to have someone call me "Mr.", instead of my first name, is foreign to me. I regularly interact with mental patients and psychiatrists, high school and college students and elected officials, lawyers and court personnel. I expect them all to call me by my first name, and I do the same. I don't see a problem.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

jackmccullough said:


> It actually sounds as though you're asking how to give a calculated affront without suffering any consequence for doing so.
> 
> The desire to have someone call me "Mr.", instead of my first name, is foreign to me. I regularly interact with mental patients and psychiatrists, high school and college students and elected officials, lawyers and court personnel. I expect them all to call me by my first name, and I do the same. I don't see a problem.


well thats fine for you, you know you're in charge. what about the rest of us, what outward clues to authority can guide us? when the boss dresses and acts like everybody else, he or she is treated like everybody else - like not following directions or following rules or interupting or basically not listening.


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

young guy said:


> well thats fine for you, you know you're in charge. what about the rest of us, what outward clues to authority can guide us? when the boss dresses and acts like everybody else, he or she is treated like everybody else - like not following directions or following rules or interupting or basically not listening.


Call them Mr. or Mrs. If they want you to call them by their first name they will say so. It really is that easy.


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## JayJay (Oct 8, 2007)

tinytim said:


> Call them Mr. or Mrs. If they want you to call them by their first name they will say so. It really is that easy.


I tend to operate this way, too.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

tinytim said:


> Call them Mr. or Mrs. If they want you to call them by their first name they will say so. It really is that easy.


i must not have clear, if theres no perceived diffrence between the boss and the workers, then why should anyone pay attention to the boss, i mean after all i'm as good as him no?


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

young guy said:


> i must not have clear, if theres no perceived diffrence between the boss and the workers, then why should anyone pay attention to the boss, i mean after all i'm as good as him no?


No, if you were you'd be the boss.


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## Penang Lawyer (May 27, 2008)

The lack of manners is too prevalent in the world today. I resent being called by my first name by people I do not know. In a doctors office I advised the MD that I do not call him by his first name neither he or his staff should do it to me. He looked shocked. Also when I get these solictation telephone calls I say you don't know how dare you use my first name. In the military do you think a private or an NCO would refer to an officer by his first name? The parents who want to be a friend to there kids started this and the schools carried on..


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

The title of this thread made me think of social distance between engineers. _That_ would have been an entertaining thread!

But to the point of all this: why would anyone in the U.S. want to formalize an already-casual social situation? Sounds fishy to me.


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## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

tinytim said:


> No, if you were you'd be the boss.


Heh. You'd be amazed at the amount of times that sentiment is bass-ackwards.

But back to the topic...

The easiest solution is to move to Germany. The use of Herr and Frau is much more common there than Mr. and Mrs. is in the English speaking world. Furthermore, you have du and Sie to help you out in that regard as well.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

tinytim said:


> One of the women I work with refuses to call our PHD customers Doctor. She says "they don't save lives so they're not worthy to be called a doctor."


Curious. The lady has not studied her Latin. A PhD is usually more of a doctor, giving the meaning the term carried in Latin, than is an MD.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

^ Right on the money, Tim.

There used to exist something called courtesy. Addressing other people with the appropriate title was considered courteous. Using first names when addressing people who weren't peers or personal friends was considered cheeky and overly familar. Appropriately addressing people who are in positions of authority, achievement, or even advanced age should not be seen as some sort of bizarre practice.

In the South we have a custom of using a title and a first name, particularly when addressing somone who is senior to you, but also a friend. i.e Mr. Scott, Ms (Miz) Karen. It's courteous, but familiar at the same time. This is what we insisted our boys do when addressing adults, especially parents of their peers. 

That sort of thing, plus insisting our Young Men sport a neat haircut and proper clothing for the occasion has resulted in Naval Wife and me receiving complements untold.

Thus ends today's sermon
Amen

Scott


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## randomdude (Jun 4, 2007)

sjm said:


> Is there a way in which to engineer social distance without incurring grievous insult?
> 
> Is there a way to, say, drag a relationship from an inappropriate first-name basis, back to titles and surnames, without the modern day equivalent of slapping someone silly with one's kid gloves? Can one establish social distance kindly, just by being gently forceful and insisting upon addressing the well-intended oik as 'Mister Smith' rather than Jimmie while he calls you by your first name?
> 
> ...


Get over yourself.


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## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

tinytim said:


> One of the women I work with refuses to call our PHD customers Doctor. She says "they don't save lives so they're not worthy to be called a doctor." The boss has explained to her that she has to call them that if they insist but she refuses to. Society really has gone to the dogs.
> 
> When I was a child I remember calling a relative by their first name. My mother slapped me so hard I fell down. I never called any adult by their name again. I truly believe that it's the parents who teach us what to do.
> 
> ...


we had the friend of my 6 year old son stay with us last weekend. he called me "dude", once. I told him that in our house we did not refer to adults like that. he stopped. I have to wonder if it simply didn't dawn on his parents ever to tell him that.


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

globetrotter said:


> we had the friend of my 6 year old son stay with us last weekend. he called me "dude", once. I told him that in our house we did not refer to adults like that. he stopped. I have to wonder if it simply didn't dawn on his parents ever to tell him that.


This really is a topic that should be discussed in a clothing forum. To me there is a direct correlation between being well dressed and well mannered. Society has gotten way too lax. If you can't respect yourself how can you respect anyone else?

Tim


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> Curious. The lady has not studied her Latin. A PhD is usually more of a doctor, giving the meaning the term carried in Latin, than is an MD.


When you gradute and get your PHD I believe you can call yourself Doctor. When you graduate from medical school you can't. I always thought that you had to pass the medical boards before you're called Doctor. That plus the degree of PHD is the highest conferred by a university. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

young guy said:


> i must not have clear, if theres no perceived diffrence between the boss and the workers, then why should anyone pay attention to the boss, i mean after all i'm as good as him no?





timytim said:


> No, if you were you'd be the boss.


I think what young guy is trying to get across is that it's a two-way street. The problem isn't only with people not being courteous to their elders and bosses and whatnot, but also with the same elders and bosses not establishing themselves. How does a boss have authority when he/she is "just one of the gang"? Same thing with, for example, college professors. You've got your college professors who act like college professors, and who are accordingly called "Dr. ____" or "Professor ____", and then you've got your college professors who act like students are are accordingly called "Mike."


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## JayJay (Oct 8, 2007)

wnh said:


> I think what young guy is trying to get across is that it's a two-way street. The problem isn't only with people not being courteous to their elders and bosses and whatnot, but also with the same elders and bosses not establishing themselves. How does a boss have authority when he/she is "just one of the gang"? Same thing with, for example, college professors. You've got your college professors who act like college professors, and who are accordingly called "Dr. ____" or "Professor ____", and then you've got your college professors who act like students are are accordingly called "Mike."


wnh, IMO makes a very good point.


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## Senator LooGAR (Apr 19, 2008)

Buddy of mine told me his dad's advice was "Once you're over about 25, there's no need to call anyone else 'Mister.'"

That has stuck with me, and now there are VERY few folks I call Mr.

Now, when dealing with elected officials, or what have you, I always refer to them by their honorary. "Judge, Senator, Congressman" whatever.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

tinytim said:


> When you gradute and get your PHD I believe you can call yourself Doctor. When you graduate from medical school you can't. I always thought that you had to pass the medical boards before you're called Doctor. That plus the degree of PHD is the highest conferred by a university. Correct me if I'm wrong.


You're a doctor if you hold a degree with a D. In Latin, it means teacher. Customs differ about whom one addresses as "Doctor". PhDs and MDs are generally addressed that way. Professions with more recent Ds, like JDs and PharmDs, are often not as they used not to have doctoral degrees in the past.

There was a silly article recently in the ABA magazine about lawyers having the right to be addressed as doctor. It concluded that they did. This is probably true, but it bucks a few hundred years of accepted social behavior for no purpose whatsoever. Some European countries, like Spain, have a different tradition and lawyers are doctor there.

As to the hierarchy of degrees, a PhD is the terminal research/academic degree. JD, MD, PharmD, etc. are terminal professional degrees. In law, you can get academic degrees such as LLM and DJS that are somewhat parallel to the JD. If you are in Britain and string all of your degrees after your name, your terminal research degree will precede your terminal professional degree.

So, there it is. Off comes my pedantic hat.

And for the record, I don't have any problem with anybody, kids or otherwise, calling me by my first name as long as they are polite and respectful. You can sneeringly and rudely address somebody as Mr. X or Dr. Y. Sure, Emily Post is satisfied, but the intention is otherwise.

EDIT: For what it's worth, in my part of the country people often address or refer to lawyers as Attorney X. This is quaint, polite and completely unnecessary.


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## stfu (Apr 30, 2008)

bd79cc said:


> The title of this thread made me think of social distance between engineers. _That_ would have been an entertaining thread!


Right, talk about awkward.



bd79cc said:


> But to the point of all this: why would anyone in the U.S. want to formalize an already-casual social situation? Sounds fishy to me.


The OP was from the UK, and I tend to agree with you.


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## HistoryDoc (Dec 14, 2006)

Over the long-term, the golden rule works. Treat others the way you would like to be treated, and do so out of kindness, not snobbery. Most people will respond in kind; Those who do not, cannot be helped. Pity them.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> EDIT: For what it's worth, in my part of the country people often address or refer to lawyers as Attorney X. This is quaint, polite and completely unnecessary.


I've encountered this occasionally and always thought it was kind of strange. Of course, I also think putting "Esq." after your name is a needless affectation.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> I've encountered this occasionally and always thought it was kind of strange. Of course, I also think putting "Esq." after your name is a needless affectation.


And also not pukka. As E. Post informs us, the lawyer does not sign himself as Esq. Very bad manners. It is a courtesy title given to the lawyer by others in correspondence. If, from the context of letterhead or whatever, it is not clear the the writer is a lawyer but wishes the fact to be known, JD can be tacked on after the name.

So, I address a letter to Snavely Whiplash, Esquire. The greeting will be "Dear Snavely:", and I sign with my name, no degrees and certainly no bloody "Esquire" as it's rather clear from the letterhead just who I am.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

Rather afraid I've shamelessly threadjacked this conversation.

To OP's question. I would suggest that less frequent showers and the elimination of anti-perspirant from the grooming regimen will give you just what you are looking for.


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## Murrah (Mar 28, 2005)

"For what it's worth, in my part of the country people often address or refer to lawyers as Attorney X."

I am often referred to in this manner by my black clients. It's a mark of respect in their culture which I appreciate.


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

wnh said:


> I think what young guy is trying to get across is that it's a two-way street. The problem isn't only with people not being courteous to their elders and bosses and whatnot, but also with the same elders and bosses not establishing themselves. How does a boss have authority when he/she is "just one of the gang"? Same thing with, for example, college professors. You've got your college professors who act like college professors, and who are accordingly called "Dr. ____" or "Professor ____", and then you've got your college professors who act like students are are accordingly called "Mike."


When you put it that way, I agree 100% There should be some distance between a teacher and student or boss and worker.


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## zarathustra (Aug 24, 2006)

tinytim said:


> This really is a topic that should be discussed in a clothing forum. To me there is a direct correlation between being well dressed and well mannered. Society has gotten way too lax. If you can't respect yourself how can you respect anyone else?
> 
> Tim


Maybe this is true back in Buckeye land, but i see numerous well dressed people everyday. Many times they are the biggest SOB's i meet. Vanity oh Vanity, while you are my favorite sin, you are quite unbecoming with some.

My barometer tends to look at how people treat service workers. If you treat service workers well, you are likely a pretty decent person, even if you don't call people Mister and Ma'am.

I have several friends who are bartenders, waiters, and waitresses. While biased they tend to agree with me. Some of the most emily post proper on the outside have been the worst tippers and treat them as some would treat a lowly servant.

I remember a particular family when I was growing up, well respected in the church, prim and proper -- but the 8 of them would go for Sunday dinner and leave 1-3 dollars. Even as a child i was embarrassed by this when i would dine with them.


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## david809 (Jul 1, 2003)

wnh said:


> I think what young guy is trying to get across is that it's a two-way street. The problem isn't only with people not being courteous to their elders and bosses and whatnot, but also with the same elders and bosses not establishing themselves. How does a boss have authority when he/she is "just one of the gang"? Same thing with, for example, college professors. You've got your college professors who act like college professors, and who are accordingly called "Dr. ____" or "Professor ____", and then you've got your college professors who act like students are are accordingly called "Mike."


I'm not sure I agree with this wholesale. The partners at my law firm have no problem establishing themselves with great authority, and they do this in ways that have nothing to do with how they wish to be addressed. I can't think of a single partner who insists on being called Mr./Ms. X. And I don't work at a "lifestyle" firm.

I do agree that I find it odd when children call their parents or other adults by their first name, or when students call their teachers by their first name. But, if the parent/adult/teacher wishes to be on a first name basis with the child, then that is her choice. I really do not believe being on a first name basis somehow degrades one's authority, although I may be willing to entertain the argument that a parent/adult/teacher's desire to be on a first name basis with a child may be symptomatic of a "softie" personality.

On the other hand, to the OP's question, if a person does not wish to be on a first name basis with a person, just say so. A simple "Mr. X, I prefer to be addressed as Mr. Y" would do the trick. I don't think anyone would be offended, especially if you make clear that you intend to address that person in the way you wish to be addressed.


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## marmer (Jun 11, 2008)

It's a tricky question. At the university where I work, most of the faculty have Ph. D's or the equivalent. Some, especially in the arts, have M.A.'s or the equivalent. Here's what I have found:

In the catalog, all faculty are referred to as Mr. or Ms.

In conversation, anyone having a doctorate is referred to as "Dr." The honorific "Professor," even if correct, is rarely used to address someone, even formally. This may be because there are different academic ranks: Assistant Professor, Associate Professor, and full Professor.

Some faculty, especially younger ones, want to be addressed by their first names. This is MUCH less true now than it was when I was in college in the early '80s.

There are two very quick ways to establish formality in a hurry. Especially if you are young and in a position of authority over people who might consider themselves your peers. First, dress better than they do. Since university campuses are so informal, a tie will do wonders. It can even be with a twill shirt or something like that. Second, and this is a trick it took me a long time to learn, refer to others as Mr. or Miss or Dr. when you are speaking about them. For example: "You really need to get Dr. Smith's permission for that." or "Did Mr. Jones play the Mozart Concerto?" or "Miss Brown and I were talking and we think you are the best choice." Do this even when talking about people with whom you are on a first name basis and it will subtly make it clear that first-name privileges should not be automatically assumed.


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## hydepark (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: "Miss"*

> Second, and this is a trick it took me a long time to learn, refer to others
> as Mr. or Miss or Dr. when you are speaking about them.

Marmer: Please refrain from using "Miss" -- a woman's marital status is none of your concern in constructing an address. Ms. has been in use since the 1950s.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

I've started much more clothing-related threads than this, and had them almost instantly removed to "the interchange". What on Earth is the standard?


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## Pelican (Nov 30, 2007)

It really depends. I have a lot of respect for southern formality, with respect to the maam and sir and various other signs of simple politeness. I generally call people by their titles if they have them, such as Senator or Representative, until told to do otherwise-- I just enjoy doing it.

To the OP though, the guy who is moderately older than I am and for some reason wants me to kiss his ass just to make himself feel important-- I will make a point of calling him "dude" just because I can. I actually enjoy that aspect of American society-- respect is earned, not given at least in a general context.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

david809 said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this wholesale. The partners at my law firm have no problem establishing themselves with great authority, and they do this in ways that have nothing to do with how they wish to be addressed. I can't think of a single partner who insists on being called Mr./Ms. X. And I don't work at a "lifestyle" firm.


And that makes perfect sense, but isn't quite to the point of what I was saying. I think the easiest way to put it is if you want people to respect you (such as addressing you properly), act like you want respect. That is, a person who establishes him- or herself doesn't have to require that he or she be addressed 'properly', but a person who wants to be addressed 'properly' ought to establish him- or herself.

As to the OP's question, I'd think it depends on the situation. I've had college professors who stated frankly, "You may refer to me as 'Dr. ____' or 'Professor ____', but not as 'Mr. ____' or 'Mike.'" I've also had professors who said, "I'd prefer that you refer to me as 'Mike.'" This generally, I believe, depended on the professor's degree held. Those who held a Ph.D had worked to attain that level and rightfully, in my opinion, felt they deserved to be addressed properly, while those with only an MA and working on the Ph.D perhaps didn't feel as though they'd 'achieved' that level.


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## wnh (Nov 4, 2006)

Taliesin said:


> I've started much more clothing-related threads than this, and had them almost instantly removed to "the interchange". What on Earth is the standard?


It's Friday.


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## Pelican (Nov 30, 2007)

To reply to WNH-- I almost never have run into this problem. I have run into U.S. Senators who prefer they be called "Joe" and I had a college professor who was the most senior man at the college and a former state banking commissioner-- he preferred "Bill" though I called him "Dr." out of respect. 

I think it's really something American. Most people here are very humble and prefer to just simply be called by their first name. Formality here generally is not worn as the same badge of status as in some other cultures. 

I think the people most obsessed with being addressed a certain way are generally the most insecure.


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## young guy (Jan 6, 2005)

wnh said:


> It's Friday.


Whew-hoo happy hour here I come, Drs. Esqs. Messers invited

actually i think some good points heve been made, i think people will follow a lead or example if someone who knows sets the tone, and they are in a position of authority i think people like clear rules because it makes life easier. am i supposed to defer to a boss who wears coolottes (however you spell that) flip-flops, call me 'Jennie', and talks about her family life at the water cooler - well i suppose I should but if easy to see them a just another coworker. a boss who dresses up - even a bit - and refers to other bosses as Mr so n so or Ms so n so is the kind of person for who you knock on their door before goin in to their office and generally makes the work place more professional, i guess i've worked in a few places where the 'just call me Joe' boss gets little respect and then people get really pissed off when they don't get a good review - because i mean - why would you 'buddy' give you a bad review


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## Pelican (Nov 30, 2007)

young guy said:


> i guess i've worked in a few places where the 'just call me Joe' boss gets little respect and then people get really pissed off when they don't get a good review - because i mean - why would you 'buddy' give you a bad review


I guess maybe it's different in other parts of the country. I have dealt with people at very high positions in Government and private business (law and lobbying). I would never dream of calling my employers by their last names. It would be strange. That doesn't mean I don't fear them and treat them with a high degree of respect.

As I said before-- the U.S. Senator who wants to be called by his first name, was extremely respected. Most people called him Senator anyways, but he was fine with his first name-- I think it's a matter of him not needing the ego trip of being called Senator all the time. Whether you called him "Joe" or "Senator" you still knew you were speaking to a very important man.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Moreover, titles at the university depend on the level of one's students. While I insist my undergraduate students call me "Dr." or "Professor", I allow my graduate students to address me by my first name (and when they don't, usually at the beginning of the term, I make sure they know that this is what I prefer).

The rules are never clear though - as a graduate student, I called some of my professors "Dr." or, more regularly, "Professor." With others I was on a first-name basis.

I have a hipster friend, who though he has a PhD, is covered in tattoos, dresses and behaves as a child, and surely is on a first-name basis with all his students. I do not condone his behavior or dress, I must say.

Levels of formality differ as well based on the quality of the school. I find the Ivy League much more professional than the large, state schools I've taught at previously.


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## hydepark (Sep 4, 2007)

Pentheos said:


> Levels of formality differ as well based on the quality of the school. I find the Ivy League much more professional than the large, state schools I've taught at previously.


While I'm all for academic snobbery, I believe it is more the case that last names are used in America's ivy-covered institutions, as in "Where is Jones?" or "Who is the new student in the Smith Lab?" I expect that this reflects a certain private school pedigree among the faculty and student body.


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## Pelican (Nov 30, 2007)

hydepark said:


> While I'm all for academic snobbery, I believe it is more the case that last names are used in America's ivy-covered institutions, as in "Where is Jones?" or "Who is the new student in the Smith Lab?" I expect that this reflects a certain private school pedigree among the faculty and student body.


Maybe this was the case long ago, but my experience in both prep and university in this setting was not this way. Perhaps it is just a generational thing.


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## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

hydepark said:


> > Second, and this is a trick it took me a long time to learn, refer to others
> > as Mr. or Miss or Dr. when you are speaking about them.
> 
> Marmer: Please refrain from using "Miss" -- a woman's marital status is none of your concern in constructing an address. Ms. has been in use since the 1950s.


Miss is actually very approrpiate with dealing with someone who is female and is obviously young enough to where being married isn't a possibility. Miss should be used till a later age than Master would be for a boy.


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## david809 (Jul 1, 2003)

wnh said:


> And that makes perfect sense, but isn't quite to the point of what I was saying. I think the easiest way to put it is if you want people to respect you (such as addressing you properly), act like you want respect. That is, a person who establishes him- or herself doesn't have to require that he or she be addressed 'properly', but a person who wants to be addressed 'properly' ought to establish him- or herself.


My mistake, I thought you were saying that if a boss/teacher was on a first name basis with her subordinates/students, she was attempting to be one of the gang and was diluting her authority.

I agree that a person who wishes to be treated respectfully must actually be (or perceived to be) a person worthy of respect, although I will say that I have had professors who were asses whom I still addressed as Prof. X (as that is the way they wished to be addressed), and I have had professors who were excellent whom I addressed by first name (as that is the way they wished to be addressed). I personally have not equated the use of a first name as an indication that a person has not established herself; rather, such use was just the personal preference of the addressee.

Likewise, I personally have not equated the use of an honorific as a signal that a person has established herself. Such use was the result of social distance (i.e., addressing a relative stranger) or the personal preference of the addressee. In short, I'm not sure if whether a person has established herself has entered my calculus as to whether I should call someone by first name or honorific.


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## RyanPatrick (Jul 3, 2008)

Pelican said:


> To reply to WNH-- I almost never have run into this problem. I have run into U.S. Senators who prefer they be called "Joe" and I had a college professor who was the most senior man at the college and a former state banking commissioner-- he preferred "Bill" though I called him "Dr." out of respect.
> 
> I think it's really something American. Most people here are very humble and prefer to just simply be called by their first name. Formality here generally is not worn as the same badge of status as in some other cultures.
> 
> I think the people most obsessed with being addressed a certain way are generally the most insecure.


I think this may be a regional difference. I was raised in South Carolina but have lived in the Pacific Northwest and the Midwest. People in the Pac NW were actually offended when I addressed them as sir or ma'am, but calling people of the same status by their first names back home would have been considered offensive. I play it safe and refer to superiors at work and my elders in a formal manner until I am told to do otherwise. 
I don't feel like it is a matter of insecurity with most individuals, it is simple etiquette.


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## Zot! (Feb 18, 2008)

Most people who are your direct superiors these days (at least in offices; I don't know about in the Medical field) don't expect to be called Mr., Ms. or Dr. Otherwise, adhere to the title until you actually know, and have a good working relationship with them. I always felt that calling one of the "higher-ups" that you don't directly work for by his or her first name was a sign of mutual respect _that should be earned_. Doing otherwise strikes me as highly presumptuous.


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## rojo (Apr 29, 2004)

Pelican said:


> the guy who is moderately older than I am and for some reason wants me to kiss his ass just to make himself feel important-- I will make a point of calling him "dude" just because I can.


Interesting. How's that strategy working out for you? In my experience, escalating the levels of disrespect has not been productive, but maybe your experience has been different.


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## marmer (Jun 11, 2008)

hydepark said:


> > Second, and this is a trick it took me a long time to learn, refer to others
> > as Mr. or Miss or Dr. when you are speaking about them.
> 
> Marmer: Please refrain from using "Miss" -- a woman's marital status is none of your concern in constructing an address. Ms. has been in use since the 1950s.


That's a little harsh, I think, and also incorrect. I work with a great many faculty women, who, although married, use their "maiden" names professionally. They expect to be called "Miss" Smith or "Miss" Jones by their students (if they don't have a doctorate.) This may be a peculiarity of the performing arts world, but I promise you that what I say is accurate.


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## Pelican (Nov 30, 2007)

rojo said:


> Interesting. How's that strategy working out for you? In my experience, escalating the levels of disrespect has not been productive, but maybe your experience has been different.


Pretty well actually! I'm in a field where some people will try to bully and intimidate others, without elaborating too much more. A lot of times certain people are less than scrupulous.

I guess it depends on your job. I am in a unique field that's very adversarial and casual social interactions are something I try to be a student of in daily life.


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## Connemara (Sep 16, 2005)

I only speak with persons in morning dress or tuxedos (after 6 PM of course). And don't even look at me if you're not wearing button boots. I will have one of my manservants beat you with an ivory cane.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

Pelican said:


> ...respect is earned, not given at least in a general context.


To this and other similar comments: Bunk.

Mutual respect should be a staple of human intercourse. A gentleman does not keep score. Respect is automatic and should be freely given. Respect can be lost or violated, but this notion that in order to receive ordinary human respect I have to work for it?...

TJS


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## Zot! (Feb 18, 2008)

Sartre said:


> To this and other similar comments: Bunk.
> 
> Mutual respect should be a staple of human intercourse. A gentleman does not keep score. Respect is automatic and should be freely given. Respect can be lost or violated, but this notion that in order to receive ordinary human respect I have to work for it?...
> 
> TJS


It depends on what kind of "respect" you're talking about. If you are talking about the common courtesy and decency civilized people *ought* to owe one another, I whole-heartedly agree.

"Respect" for people in positions of authority simply because they occupy that position is a different matter. For instance, I may respect the _office_ of mayor or senator, or perhaps the presidency of a major corporation, and if I were introduced to such a person I would, of course, observe proper decorum. But I don't have to respect them the same way I respect my father or my best friend simply because of their station in life. Not by a long shot: that kind of respect is most definitely earned.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

randomdude said:


> Get over yourself.


I see no need to insult him. You may not agree with what he has to say, but manners are still fashionable on the internet.


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## sjm (Oct 6, 2007)

*examples*



bd79cc said:


> ..._why would anyone in the U.S. want to formalize an already-casual social situation? Sounds fishy to me._


I relish certain elements of social distance, and have lived in many different societies, around the world, where a measured formality in no way implies feelings of superiority or a lack of respect in either direction. It does create a world in which mutual respect is identified, signalling our respect for one another, while at the same time creating a space in which to increase social intimacy if that is appropriate and desired. if one is deaf to these nuances, do please ignore them.

a visit to elderly relatives, in an old folk's home, gave me hives. a gum-chewing young slattern amiably pushing the bath-chair of some ancient professor. "Did we wet our pants today Timmy? Did we Timmy? Are you cleaned up now, Timmie? Are we ready for our lunch? Okay, Timmie..." I am not sure what Professor Timothy XYZ made of this, but he did not look best pleased.

It made my stomach churn, but no doubt some of you will find it refreshingly chummy and so, um, happily devoid of the cruel social hierarchy that made the Victorian Era so allegedly regrettable. Yes. Quite.


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## Victor123 (Jun 18, 2008)

sjm said:


> Is there a way in which to engineer social distance without incurring grievous insult?
> 
> Is there a way to, say, drag a relationship from an inappropriate first-name basis, back to titles and surnames, without the modern day equivalent of slapping someone silly with one's kid gloves? Can one establish social distance kindly, just by being gently forceful and insisting upon addressing the well-intended oik as 'Mister Smith' rather than Jimmie while he calls you by your first name?
> 
> ...


No, but it sounds like you wouldn't mind insulting him.


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## stfu (Apr 30, 2008)

.. and I just realized this is in the trad forum. At the least, can it be moved to the interchange?


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## Zot! (Feb 18, 2008)

stfu said:


> .. and I just realized this is in the trad forum. At the least, can it be moved to the interchange?


That in and of itself is a very philosophical question. A lot of people interested in Trad are also nostalgic for an era with a code of social conduct that seems quite bygone. As for myself, I don't entirely pine for those days (how many of us here are actually from Old Money families and would be accepted into this culture we seek to emulate?). Still, in the work setting I call people I'm not familiar with Mr. & Ms., and _never_ use "dude."


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## Beresford (Mar 30, 2006)

A Questionable Gentleman said:


> You're a doctor if you hold a degree with a D. In Latin, it means teacher. Customs differ about whom one addresses as "Doctor". PhDs and MDs are generally addressed that way. Professions with more recent Ds, like JDs and PharmDs, are often not as they used not to have doctoral degrees in the past.
> 
> There was a silly article recently in the ABA magazine about lawyers having the right to be addressed as doctor. It concluded that they did. This is probably true, but it bucks a few hundred years of accepted social behavior for no purpose whatsoever. Some European countries, like Spain, have a different tradition and lawyers are doctor there.
> 
> ...


At the college I attended, Williams, the professors and instructors, most of whom had Ph.Ds., were uniformly addressed as "Mr.," "Mrs." or "Miss", as appropriate (yes, "Ms." was starting to creep in but was still somewhat made fun of). If you addressed them as "Dr.," you would be corrected, generally with the comment that the only "Doctors" are medical doctors and doctors of divinity. However, Ph.D.s traditionally were not considered "Doctors."

At least as of 2002 and in this article, Williams Ph.D.s were still being addressed as "Mister":

https://williams.edu/admin/news/chronicle/

I think there was some reverse snobbery here; the unspoken message being that professors might call themselves "Dr." at Humongous State U. to give themselves airs, but we don't do that at our traditional liberal arts college.

Don't know whether this is a Williams thing, or a New England tradition. When I later was at Berkeley, they all called themselves "Dr." which at first seemed really pretentious and took some getting used to.

This is sort of like the discussion as to whether you get a "B.A." or an "A.B" (with some thinking you sound more pretentious if you say you have an "A.B.," since that's what Harvard bachelors' degrees are.)


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## Liberty Ship (Jan 26, 2006)

sjm said:


> Is there a way in which to engineer social distance without incurring grievous insult?
> 
> Is there a way to, say, drag a relationship from an inappropriate first-name basis, back to titles and surnames, without the modern day equivalent of slapping someone silly with one's kid gloves? Can one establish social distance kindly, just by being gently forceful and insisting upon addressing the well-intended oik as 'Mister Smith' rather than Jimmie while he calls you by your first name?
> 
> ...


I'm afraid that once they are inside the wire, all you can do is call an air strike in on the whole relationship.


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## stfu (Apr 30, 2008)

Zot! said:


> That in and of itself is a very philosophical question. A lot of people interested in Trad are also nostalgic for an era with a code of social conduct that seems quite bygone. As for myself, I don't entirely pine for those days (how many of us here are actually from Old Money families and would be accepted into this culture we seek to emulate?). Still, in the work setting I call people I'm not familiar with Mr. & Ms., and _never_ use "dude."


To be honest, I don't care one way or another if this thread stays here, but I do note that:

A) this forum is in the sub fora titled "Ask Andy's Clothing Fora"
and 
B) The forum description specifies a type of dress, not behavior, as the genesis and purpose of said forum.

I won't offer conjecture on whether addressing someone either as "Tom" or "Mr. Thomas" instead is more "trad". But I digress,  .


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## edhillpr (Apr 19, 2007)

Hi,
With family in both the southern US and Caribbean islands, my brothers and I were raised to show respect to adults. As a father I taught my son the same way.

In my 40's I still show respect to older folks in business or social situations by calling them sir or ma'am. To show courtesy and respect to the elderly, my friends or coworkers costs me nothing in money or self respect. In return I gain a friendlier and more cooperative environment around me.

Distance? Some times that's useful too. Some people you may have a business relationship with. But maybe you don't have to be their closest friend.

Best Regards,
Ed


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## 321WCameron (May 7, 2006)

*Interesting...*

I find this subject of conversation interesting. I think I'll share my experience on this topic. I am a 26 year old recent law school graduate. During my clerkships at law firms, I've had intense personal battles with how to address the attorneys, many of whom are many, many years my elder. At first, I called everyone by their proper titles; Mr. and Mrs. Almost all of them politely corrected me and we moved on from there. There are still a few who haven't corrected me, so I continue to call them by their proper name. I suppose that will phase out in time.

I've gotten myself in real trouble on more than one occassion by saying to an elder acquantance's spouse, "Thanks so much, Mrs. X" rather than, "Thanks so much, Betty." I suppose it makes them feel younger? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I still get uneasy calling someone who's been practicing law since 1949, "George."

MP


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I had a similar experience. Last month I was a trainer at a week-long trial skills training; the other trainers were other experienced Legal Services trial lawyers or members of the National College of Trial Lawyers, and the trainees were generally pretty young and inexperienced Legal Services lawyers. Everybody was on a first-name basis, except that we learned late in the week that the group generally called one of the trainers "Mr. XX". He was every bit as friendly and open as the rest of us (although quite a bit older), and he certainly didn't ask them to call him Mr., but the trainees felt it was the right thing to do.


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

Connemara said:


> I only speak with persons in morning dress or tuxedos (after 6 PM of course). And don't even look at me if you're not wearing button boots. I will have one of my manservants beat you with an ivory cane.


Hahaha.....


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## zarathustra (Aug 24, 2006)

321WCameron said:


> I've gotten myself in real trouble on more than one occassion by saying to an elder acquantance's spouse, "Thanks so much, Mrs. X" rather than, "Thanks so much, Betty." I suppose it makes them feel younger? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I still get uneasy calling someone who's been practicing law since 1949, "George."
> 
> MP


Haha. That has happened to me countless times. I know the feeling.


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

When I worked at the provincial legislature (yes I refer to this short time a lot, because my only other work experience is in a family firm where people call me by my first name because I grew up around them.) I referred to my bosses and MLAs as Mr. or Ms. One of my MLAs I was responsible for said, "Call me Genia", as it was the custom of her constituents, many of whom she had taught in school to call her by either an ethnic familiarism using her first name. Of course, even this nickname was too casual for me, so I often referred to her as "Ms. X" and after a few days the matter was settled that as a young assistant, I was not there to be her friend, but rather her assistant. 

The other MLA I was responsible for I called "Mr.X". His wife came to visit one day and introduced herself by her first name. I replied, "it's a pleasure to meet you ma'am." and I never felt silly. 

I suppose the point of this is that one can easily have a traditional view of positions and a thing like a PhD or a MLA position deserves a degree of respect. Politicians love to be called by their first name, especially when you're giving them the contents of their wallet.

A girl I worked with (our desks were next to each other) referred to her bosses as P. and D. (first name basis). Strangely enough, she's still there (AFAIK) and I was let go in a shuffle. So things other than protocol matter frequently, including how far you're willing to be somebody's buddy.

Thomas


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

Jovan said:


> I see no need to insult him. You may not agree with what he has to say, but manners are still fashionable on the internet.


I do agree. For 99% of the people who participate on a forum proper manners are important. It's that other 1% who ruin it for most of us. IMO it's the fact that they're a namless faceless person. They can act out their tough guy fantasies online. Most of them wouldn't dare to talk that way face to face.


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## hydepark (Sep 4, 2007)

Beresford said:


> This is sort of like the discussion as to whether you get a "B.A." or an "A.B" (with some thinking you sound more pretentious if you say you have an "A.B.," since that's what Harvard bachelors' degrees are.)


 Harvard and a number of other institutions choose to use Latin names for their degrees (such as A.M. or A.B.) and typically these are only used in alumni-related materials (magazine, website, etc). Depending on the institution the degree might be printed in Latin (in which case this is appropriate), otherwise use the Latinate does impress one as pretentious (institutionally). On a c.v. printing "A.B." would be fine if the degree was granted as such, however, in conversation "B.A." is the norm. If you think that telling someone you have a A.B. will automatically make them assume you went to Harvard you might be surprised that they were thinking Washington University.


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## hydepark (Sep 4, 2007)

gar1013 said:


> Miss is actually very approrpiate with dealing with someone who is female and is obviously young enough to where being married isn't a possibility. Miss should be used till a later age than Master would be for a boy.


The "possibility" is irrelevant. Master is long since archaic and since it has no reference to marriage status (such as "Miss") the comparison is weak.


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## hydepark (Sep 4, 2007)

marmer said:


> That's a little harsh, I think, and also incorrect. I work with a great many faculty women, who, although married, use their "maiden" names professionally. They expect to be called "Miss" Smith or "Miss" Jones by their students (if they don't have a doctorate.) This may be a peculiarity of the performing arts world, but I promise you that what I say is accurate.


Yes, fine, a local example from your experience doesn't mean that the practice is not sexist. To return an earlier discussion I wonder why these women (according to you) choose to be called "Miss" when their male colleagues are no doubt called "Prof"? Either way, the practice is archaic and reflects sexual bias. Citing Texas practices, by the way, is hardly a good method to prove any general modern practice.


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## Zot! (Feb 18, 2008)

^ I always use Ms. when addressing women in a professional setting. I know the whole "Ms." title was really controversial in the 70's, but I think it's a good thing: it takes most of the guess work out of it. While a lot of married women don't really mind "Mrs.," my understanding is that "Miss" for anyone over 16 is kind of a slight.


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## marmer (Jun 11, 2008)

hydepark said:


> Yes, fine, a local example from your experience doesn't mean that the practice is not sexist. To return an earlier discussion I wonder why these women (according to you) choose to be called "Miss" when their male colleagues are no doubt called "Prof"? Either way, the practice is archaic and reflects sexual bias. Citing Texas practices, by the way, is hardly a good method to prove any general modern practice.


Can you disagree without being insulting? You accuse me of inaccuracy, my colleagues of sexism, and my university of some kind of regionally-based irrelevance. They are being called Miss because they established their careers using their family name and they want to keep being known as such. There are a few who use Mrs. when they take their husband's name. Their male counterparts are called Mr. Anyone who holds a doctorate is called Dr. unless they specifically ask not to be. For whatever reason, the term Professor is rarely used. Probably because among our faculty, very few hold that rank, and several of the performance faculty hold the rank of Artist Teacher or Lecturer.
And although we may be in Texas, for whatever negative implication it has for you, our community comes from throughout the nation and the world and brings to us reputations established elsewhere. I freely admit, as I did in my last post, that this may be a peculiarity of the performing arts world. There are plenty of archaic practices and traditions that we honor. Ask someone from a professional opera company how they address their guest artists.

And, by the way, I seem to have been one of the few posters in this thread who replied to the original poster's question with any kind of real advice. That advice was to refer to third parties as Mr. or Miss or Dr. (or Mrs.) when speaking to others about them, and unfortunately, one of the examples I chose set you off. But the advice is just as valid if you use Ms. in place of Miss.

This is a long post, and although I took offense at hydepark's tone, I am curious. As far as I know I have never offended anyone by using Miss or Mrs., even outside of the musical community. Of course, I use Ms. writing about or addressing someone whose marital status I don't know, but are Miss and Mrs. really that insulting when addressing someone you know? I have never been corrected or even had it mentioned until now, and I hope I haven't been offending people. I've been calling my childhood friends' mothers Mrs. So-and-so as long as I've known them, and that's more than forty years. That's sort of why I am so surprised at the size of the stick that hydepark chose to beat me with.


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## Naval Gent (May 12, 2007)

Liberty Ship said:


> I'm afraid that once they are inside the wire, all you can do is call an air strike in on the whole relationship.


I love this metaphor. Well done!

How would one contact the Direct Air Support Center?

Scott


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## tinytim (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm having a hard time believing this post is still alive. I think we've all made our point. Time to put it to bed.


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