# What's so good about "sea island cotton"?



## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

$150 for an undershirt? What's so good about this stuff?


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## Dashiell.Valentine (Dec 18, 2008)

Seems a bit crazy to me, too. However, in the Ian Fleming books on James Bond, Bond frequently wears sea-island dress shirts with turn back cuffs. So, that's something.

I think that back when Jamaica was a colony of Great Britain, sea island cotton was probably relatively cheap (I'm not sure about that, though). Today, it's a delicacy, so probably has lost that old appeal.

I know there are other threads on this topic here that go in depth into the cotton qualities of sea island/egyptian cottons and such. 

If you do a search for: "sea island" egyptian

It yields 35 results, most of them pretty interesting. Let us know if you find a good cheap source of sea island shirts, though.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

It produces unusually long yarns, which permits cloth of a finer hand. Is it worth it? If someone is willing to pay, yes.

I was doing some online car comparisons just last night, and was looking at the Mercedes CL600 and the Mercedes CL65 AMG - the former does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds and costs $150k, the latter 0-60 in 4.4 seconds and costs 207k. Is 0.2 seconds "worth" a $57k premium? Again, yes, if someone is willing to pay.

DH


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## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

Wearing it for a few seconds will answer the question. Very smooth and soft against the skin.


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## S.Paul (Nov 23, 2009)

With regards to the undershirt, a very nice Sea Island knit fabric costs about $24/yard in a 60inch width, at least from a fabric reseller that I found. So I would guess an undershirt would take about a yard to a yard and a half of fabric at that width.

So there seems to be a whole lot of margin in that $150 undershirt! BTW, where did you see it? Just curious whose name is on it, maybe that is where the extra cost comes from.  I bet it would feel pretty nice, though!

As for dress shirts, cheap Sea Island doesn't really seem to exist. If you are talking about the real deal from the West Indies (WISC), it seems that the material cost for a dress shirt could easily be about $60-$80 just for the fabric. Perhaps that could be a little less if a manufacturer is buying the fabric in bulk but I haven't been able to find that personally.

Sean Paul


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

a!!!!1 said:


> $150 for an undershirt? What's so good about this stuff?


I own one (1) Sea Island cotton shirt, which I purchased on a closeout sale so it was only mildy overpriced instead of absurdly overpriced. While I can tell there's a difference between it and regular cotton (it feels smoother and, when first put on, cooler), I can't begin to see how it justifies the premium.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Sea Island cotton (which is named for the Sea Islands found offshore of Georgia and South Carolina) is a common name for a particular species of cotton. IIUC, it's also the same species that gives us "Egyptian" cotton. The relevant characteristics are that it has much longer staple length and is harder/more expensive to grow than other cotton.

The longer staple (fiber length) gives it certain desirable properties, and an ability to combine softness with durability. Only you can decide whether, for a particular garment, the extra cost is worth it. I would never think of spending $150 to get that quality in a t-shirt, but perhaps others with more sensitive skin or vastly more money find it a good value.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Dashiell.Valentine said:


> I think that back when Jamaica was a colony of Great Britain, sea island cotton was probably relatively cheap (I'm not sure about that, though).


I don't think so. Pretty sure it was always much more expensive than upland cotton. It can only be grown in certain climates, etc.


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## jimbob (Jun 24, 2006)

*Sea Island Cotton*

Paul Stuart has some sea Island shirts in white. They are not marked up that high.


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## S.Paul (Nov 23, 2009)

CuffDaddy said:


> Sea Island cotton (which is named for the Sea Islands found offshore of Georgia and South Carolina) is a common name for a particular species of cotton. IIUC, it's also the same species that gives us "Egyptian" cotton. The relevant characteristics are that it has much longer staple length and is harder/more expensive to grow than other cotton.
> 
> The longer staple (fiber length) gives it certain desirable properties, and an ability to combine softness with durability. Only you can decide whether, for a particular garment, the extra cost is worth it. I would never think of spending $150 to get that quality in a t-shirt, but perhaps others with more sensitive skin or vastly more money find it a good value.


Well said!! That about sums it up perfectly, I think.

SP


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## S.Paul (Nov 23, 2009)

jimbob said:


> Paul Stuart has some sea Island shirts in white. They are not marked up that high.


Interesting. The only thing, though, is that there is a difference between true West Indies Sea Island cotton and "Sea Island quality" cotton, which is a term sometimes used by manufacturers of dress shirts to indicate that they have quality cotton fabric with long fibers but it may not necessary be the real thing. I do not know what the differences would be, just merely wanted to point that out.

Sean Paul


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Srynerson said:


> I own one (1) Sea Island cotton shirt, which I purchased on a closeout sale so it was only mildy overpriced instead of absurdly overpriced. While I can tell there's a difference between it and regular cotton (it feels smoother and, when first put on, cooler), I can't begin to see how it justifies the premium.


I too own one Sea Island cotton shirt I purchased on closeout. And I too cannot see enough of a difference to begin to justify the stratospheric price.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Some info from the Dress Shirt Chapter of the downloadable *The Encyclopedia of Men's Clothes*:

Fiber length determines the quality of cotton.

*Pima *- long-staple (or fiber) cotton, but less expensive than Egyptian or Sea Island. It's named after the Pima Indians of the American Southwest, who helped raise it on experimental farms in Arizona in the early 1900s. Also grown in Peru and Australia, pima grown in the United States is usually referred to on packages by the trademarked term *Supima.*

*Egyptian* - Egyptian cotton is regarded as the crème of the global crop, with the longest staple of any type of cotton - 1 1/2 inches or greater - considered the finest cotton in the world, it's soft, silky, strong, absorbs dyes beautifully, less likely to pill or lint, and it's expensive! Some retailers and manufacturers say you could be better off choosing pima over Egyptian, since it describes a specific variety of premium cotton rather than a region where cotton is grown. Egypt is exporting other, lesser varieties of cotton in addition to the extra-long fiber it became known for.

*Sea Island* (named for an island off Georgia's coast) -- is also grown on islands off South Carolina, Texas and Florida and in the West Indies. The highest-grade of luxurious cotton made of strong, long, thin, silky fibers. It's the domestic version of Egyptian cotton. 

*COTTON HISTORY:* Cotton was introduced into the United States as a cash crop from the West Indies. Earlier cotton was mostly grown in the middle- and far-east. England, after lifting a ban on cottons in the mid 1700's, had developed various manufacturing processes and weaving machines that were kept secret. They were brought to the States when an apprentice, Samuel Slater, left England in disguise and came to New England.

Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin in 1793, a machine for separating cotton fibers from the seeds. Whitney's invention was a saw gin type, which he patented in 1794. There had been other cotton gins before, but his was fast and efficient and could clean high quantities of cotton. Cotton accounted for one-third of United States exports by the 1830's with this technology and the availability of raw materials.


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## dukekook (Sep 5, 2008)

The Sea Island shirts that I "outgrew" a few years back were very comfortable shirts for warm, humid weather. They breathed better than any shirts I owned or have owned since. The price mentioned by the OP is, at the very least, impractical.


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

S.Paul said:


> With regards to the undershirt, a very nice Sea Island knit fabric costs about $24/yard in a 60inch width, at least from a fabric reseller that I found. So I would guess an undershirt would take about a yard to a yard and a half of fabric at that width.
> 
> So there seems to be a whole lot of margin in that $150 undershirt!


$25 * 1.5 = $37.50 fabric cost / manufacturing
$36 * 1.75 = $63 Cost to retailer
$63 * 2.3 = $145 Cost to customer

Not arguing it's reasonable, but it might be logical given the cost of goods.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

I was able to purchase some closeout M&S Sea Island Cotton keyhole briefs under the autograph label in the January sales this year at an incredibly reasonable price of only €10 each. 

This is genuine Sea Island cotton - with the numbered hologram and Guarantee of Authenticity from the West Indian Sea Island Cotton Association attached to each garment.

I'm very pleased with them.

Unfortunately they appear to have discontinued this product.


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## S.Paul (Nov 23, 2009)

Very good point. The $25/yd price point is actually a consumer purchasing from a fabric reseller, so perhaps the manufacturer of said shirt is getting the knit at $15/yd in quantity? Regardless, adding in that step of the markup to the retailer makes sense, I forgot about that part. 

Is 2.3x a common multiplier for retail?

Sean Paul


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

Brooks Brothers sells underwear made of Sea Island cotton spun in Switzerland and made in Germany. It is truly incredible stuff. I am hooked. Not cheap, but almost always deals to be had. Perhaps that is what the original poster is referring to.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I might get one shirt made of this stuff one day just for the sheer hell of it.


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

S.Paul said:


> Very good point. The $25/yd price point is actually a consumer purchasing from a fabric reseller, so perhaps the manufacturer of said shirt is getting the knit at $15/yd in quantity? Regardless, adding in that step of the markup to the retailer makes sense, I forgot about that part.
> 
> Is 2.3x a common multiplier for retail?
> 
> Sean Paul


2x is usually the starting point (not including sales/clearance), with scarce / in demand goods going up to 3x.


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## S.Paul (Nov 23, 2009)

goplutus said:


> 2x is usually the starting point (not including sales/clearance), with scarce / in demand goods going up to 3x.


Great info - thanks!! So let's see...since I have been failing in my quest to find truly great, slim-fitting undershirts/plain white T's, perhaps I should just order up the Sea Island knit and get one made to specs! How many hours does it take a good tailor to make a t-shirt? 2? Except now that I think about it, there was something about the collar of a tee-shirt (the slightly elastic part) being a royal pain if you wanted anything other than the cheap ones that exist on most everyday t-shirts...I'm sure others on here know way more about that than I do.

Time to google!

SP


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## goplutus (Jun 4, 2005)

A good thread on retail markups from a few years back:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=75917&highlight=retail+keystone


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## Earnest in Brooklyn (Feb 20, 2010)

*And then there is this...*

What people are willing to pay a premium for is up to each individual of course. I may be willing to pay $300 for a bottle of Armagnac and you may not be willing to pay more than $50. We all have splurge items and that is what makes the world go round...

And, as I have stated before, I am not that great of a dresser but I only buy dress shirts in sea island cotton. Not because of good taste or money to burn, I assure you, but rather because they seem to breather more and keep me cooler. I always run 10 degrees hotter than everyone else (must be that Canadian side of the family heritage). So, if I put on a t-shirt, dress shirt, suit jacket and then an overcoat, I will absolutely die of heat exhaustion no matter what the weather is and how cold it is outside. I once bought a non-iron dress shirt from BB and almost died from heat exhaustion...in February.

After lots of experimentation, sea island cotton shirts have been really helpful, soft, cool, breathable, etc. Is there scientific data to support this assertion? Not that I have seen. But the comfort level for me is absolutely worth it. Also, as someone pointed out, Paul Stuart has Sea Island cotton dress shirts for not ridiculous prices. The key is to stock up at the end of the summer as quality stores move to heavier fabrics for the Fall and Winter. If you buy at the end of the season you can save some money and if you wear them in winter you are covered anyway.

So, is it worth the premium? I personally don't find the premium that large and it is imperative for me.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

There is no such things as Sea Island cotton, because no cotton is made on Sea Island.


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## Earnest in Brooklyn (Feb 20, 2010)

*Interesting observation but...*



Bog said:


> There is no such things as Sea Island cotton, because no cotton is made on Sea Island.


Apparently, there is actually such a thing as Sea Island cotton. According to Wikipedia:

Sea Island Cotton

In about 1786, planting of Sea Island Cotton, G. barbadense, began in the British North American colonies, on the Sea Islands of South Carolina and Georgia when cotton planters were brought over from Barbados.[2] (Among the earliest planters of Sea Island cotton in America was an Englishman, Francis Levett, who later fled his Georgia Plantation at the outbreak of the American Revolution and went to the Bahamas, where he attempted to introduce cotton production but failed.) Sea Island cotton commanded the highest price of all the cottons, due to its long staple 1½ in to 2½ in and its silky texture, it was used for the finest cotton counts and often mixed with silk. It was also grown on the uplands of Georgia where the quality was not so good[2], and was soon surpassed in commercial production by another native American species, Upland cotton (Gossypium hirsutum) which today represents about 95% of U.S production.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

Earnest in Brooklyn said:


> Apparently, there is actually such a thing as Sea Island cotton. According to Wikipedia:
> 
> Sea Island Cotton
> 
> In about 1786, planting of Sea Island Cotton, G. barbadense, began in the British North American colonies, on the Sea Islands of South Carolina and Georgia when cotton planters were brought over from Barbados.[2] (Among the earliest planters of Sea Island cotton in America was an Englishman, Francis Levett, who later fled his Georgia Plantation at the outbreak of the American Revolution and went to the Bahamas, where he attempted to introduce cotton production but failed.) Sea Island cotton commanded the highest price of all the cottons, due to its long staple 1½ in to 2½ in and its silky texture, it was used for the finest cotton counts and often mixed with silk. It was also grown on the uplands of Georgia where the quality was not so good[2], and was soon surpassed in commercial production by another native American species, Upland cotton (Gossypium hirsutum) which today represents about 95% of U.S production.


*Earnst in Brooklyn,*

Good post.

There is a good book whose name I forget out on the subject which argues that Sea island Cotton no longer exists and never will again.

If we were to use the level of labeling laws that the French use for wines as an example then indeed Sea island cotton no longer exists.

Very high grade Extra long staple cotton does exist but is it as nice as Sea island cotton from a long time ago? I do not know but i would love to hear from a textile historian.

Certain Ginza strains of Egyptian cotton are favored over Sea Island cotton by artisanal weavers in Italy of the finest cotton such as Carlo Riva.


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## Earnest in Brooklyn (Feb 20, 2010)

*Thanks...and a few thoughts...*



Sam Hober said:


> *Earnst in Brooklyn,*
> 
> There is a good book whose name I forget out on the subject which argues that Sea island Cotton no longer exists and never will again.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I think the book may be right that Sea Island Cotton no longer exists (which is very different than saying there never was such a thing).

It would certainly be helpful, although probably not practical, if we followed the French model for naming and authenticity.

I also agree with you that when I am buying Sea Island Cotton today I am probably (most likely) not getting cotton that grew on a few islands off the coast of South Carolina. What I have found is that if you line up five shirts in most stores, the shirt market Sea Island Cotton will be the softest, lightest and most breathable--also the most expensive. I suspect most of what we see labeled Sea Island Cotton comes from Egypt or Turkey (both of which make excellent cotton; I have seen this first hand in Turkey although I have not been to Egypt as of yet).

In any case, I agree with you. I would like to hear from a textile historian on the matter. I'd also like to hear from any cotton experts on the subject, particularly if they think there is an alternative to what we know (and what is marketed) as Sea Island cotton.

Interesting discussion.


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

Apparently Sea Island cotton ceased to exist in roughly 1920.

Other "Sea Island" cottons are just using the name as a brand.

Extra long staple cotton does exist and makes wonderful cotton and is grown in more than one location.

Like wine we could spend a long time talking about which is the best....


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Sam Hober said:


> Apparently Sea Island cotton ceased to exist in roughly 1920.
> 
> Other "Sea Island" cottons are just using the name as a brand.
> 
> ...


Of course, the fact that blog is the mouthpiece of a cotton growers' association in the American South*west* just _could_ be affecting their take on this...

In any event, I am certain that most of the posters here describing their experience with Sea Island cotton are describing their experiences with "Sea Island Quality" cotton, which generally is a 140s or 160s cotton. The extremely knowledgeable Alex Kabbaz had an interesting writeup on the fate of Sea Island cotton as of a few years ago, which indeed led to the conclusion that "Sea Island" as a designation was meaningless. Since then there has been a movement to reclaim the Sea Island designation and an association, WISICA, has sprung up, along with special holograms to be stuck on any items made with WISICA-certified Sea Island cotton. Pantherella's SIC socks and the special SIC shirts at New & Lingwood are among those that have that sticker.

I've seen swatches of apparently "real" Sea Island cotton in 100s, 140s and 160s designations. The one "Sea Island" cotton shirt I had made, my shirtmaker himself told me that at this point, who knows what "Sea Island" is or how it differs from the better Egyptian cottons? I've owned various Sea Island Quality shirts, and frankly think that just getting a good quality cotton in 100s or 120s is better than a dodgy Sea Island Quality ("SIQ"), so that, say, the normal Hilditch & Key cotton of a few years ago felt better than Tyrwhitt's Sea Island Quality or Pink's 170s. I have a few H&K SIQ shirts from some time ago and the hand was excellent -- but the cotton is pretty delicate.


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*A helpful past discussion*

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=68042


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

medwards said:


> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=68042


Having checked that thread earlier, it is missing a great deal of salient information.

Additionally, much of the information previously appearing in this thread is either inaccurate or incorrect. More to come ...


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## Sam Hober (Jan 2, 2005)

*RJ, a good point about always looking for bias by writers.In this case I was simply looking for quick information about the book and not overly concerned about editorial comments*



RJman said:


> _Of course, the fact that blog is the mouthpiece of a cotton growers' association in the American Southwest just _could_ be affecting their take on this..._
> 
> *
> 
> ...


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## Earnest in Brooklyn (Feb 20, 2010)

*Fascinating indeed...*

Perhaps, in the end, the only true honest marketers are the French and the Italians. Roquefort comes from roquefort and so forth. Of course, here in Brooklyn, we have a bunch of guys claiming to do Neopolitan pizza that my neighbor actually from Naples says taste like they came from...well...North Brooklyn. I also understand that a lot of olive oil marked as coming from Italy are pressed in Italy but the olives are from Turkey or Spain or Greece. Go figure.

But seriously, in any case, I am not under the impression that when I buy cotton that is marked Sea Island, it actually comes from the the islands off the coast. I understand the whole marketing thing. What I am buying is a comparison to what feels a certain way to me. In this case, I am paying a premium for a difference I can feel. All that said, there have been times when I bought a shirt that just said Egyptian cotton because it had the same feel I was looking for.

I do look forward to seeing this discussion evolve as it will be interesting to learn something.


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

goplutus said:


> $25 * 1.5 = $37.50 fabric cost / manufacturing
> $36 * 1.75 = $63 Cost to retailer
> $63 * 2.3 = $145 Cost to customer
> 
> Not arguing it's reasonable, but it might be logical given the cost of goods.


I m sure that none of producers can earn 50%. Rate is aprox 15%. We used to produce for the brands for years and in Maras many factories still produce for brands they cant get over 15%.
Once I saw the price labels on a shirt in a factory I could not beleive that price differences are very high.(x 6)


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

*What is Sea Island cotton, why is it better, and how does it relate to other top Extra-Long Staple (E.L.S.) Cottons?*

Sea Island cotton has been termed "the longest, finest, and most valuable cotton grown in the world". The Sea Island cotton grown in the West Indies has an average fibre length of 1.75"-2". This is the world's longest. Its closest widely-recognized competitors are Giza 45, Karnak, and Menoufi, all with fibre lengths about .25" shorter. Karnak and Menoufi are cotton species of days-of-old and no longer figure prominently. To offer a bit of specificity, E.L.S. cottons are defined as those having a fibre length greater than 1.375".

Why are E.L.S. cottons prized? There are a number of reasons. These cottons are not only longer, but they are also finer in diameter and possess significantly greater tensile strength - often as strong as 50 tons per square inch. This high tensile strength is what permits the spinning of the high yarn numbers (120s and up) necessary to produce the finest shirtings. The longer fiber permits a smoother finish to the yarn, and thence the shirting, simply because there are fewer "joints" than characterize cottons of shorter length. By derivation, the smoother finished yarn yields a smoother finished fabric.

Sea Island cotton has a long and sometimes checkered history. It was first grown in the United States in 1786 from seed obtained from the Bahamas. Although many attempts were made to grow this special cotton inland, the finest specimens were always grown on the Sea Islands - James, Edisto, John, and Wadmalaw. Although Sea Island cotton was being successfully grown inland as well, the seeds obtained from the inland grown did not retain the superb characteristics for long. The inland growers were dependent upon the Sea Islands growers for a replenishment of seed at least every three years.

In the first decade of the 20th century, starting in 1902, the culture of Sea Island cotton growing was introduced to the West Indies. Expert growers from the Carolinas were employed to teach the farmers of St. Vincent, Antigua, Barbados and other smaller islands how to grow Sea Island cotton. So successful was this project that within the decade, Sea Island cotton from the West Indies was offering stong competition to the Southeastern U.S. crop. Hit by the boll weevil in 1919, the U.S. Sea Island cotton crop was decimated. In 1924, U.S. production hit an all-time low of 11 bales.

The sad fate of U.S. production aside, the growing of cotton from the Sea Island seeds continued - and continues - in the West Indies. Various attempts were made to grow it elsewhere including Pima County, Arizona and in Peru. These attempts failed. The primary requirement for successfully and continually growing any certain species of cotton, climate and knowledge aside, is that there can be no other species of cotton growing nearby. With the wanton windborne wandering of pollen different species will cross-polinate and, with rare exception to the contrary, dilute the prized genetic characteristics of the better species.

The best of today's cottons come from two regions. Sea Island is grown in the West Indies. Egyptian E.L.S. cotton is grown in the triangular area at the mouth of the Nile River roughly bounded by Cairo, Alexandria, and Port Said. Also in the running are Peru and the American Southwest.

What the future holds for these cottons is yet to be determined. Egyptian Giza 45 has "run out". In lay terms, this means that the quality of the seed has degenerated to a point where the expected characteristics can no longer be reliably maintained. At current usage rates, there exists sufficient Giza 45 cotton in storage to last another 8-10 years. The Egyptian government and private industry are working rapidly to develop a new strain. The continuity of Sea Island production is more certain as the West Indian Sea Island Cotton Association, Inc. (WISICA) strongly enforces proper cultivation.

Finally, when it comes to shirts, socks, and underwear, what are the implications of the term "Sea Island cotton"?

1] "Sea Island Quality" is easiest to dispel, for there is no such thing. Either is is Sea Island, or it isn't. Just using a Long Staple - or even an Extra-Long Staple - cotton does not make it Sea Island. All claims of "SIQ" should be ignored.

2] "Sea Island cotton": Here there are murky waters.

Firstly, is it certified? That can usually be determined by the presence - or absence - of the WISICA certification shown by a holographic sticker on the product.

The second qualifier is difficult, if not impossible, for a lay person to determine. This qualifier is: What percentage of the cotton used in the product is Sea Island and what percentage, to steal from the car rental commercial, is "not exactly"? Publicly available specifications are non-existent. Only three methods, two certain and the other less so, can answer this question:

The first certain method is to remove yarns from the product, unspin them, and microscopically compare their composition of fibres to genuine Sea Island fibres. One somewhat off-balance men's furnishings e-seller has been known to do this at times.

The second certain method is to follow the "food chain". This requires beginning at the retailer, moving up to the weaver/maker, following the trail to the spinner, and being permitted to follow the incoming certified Sea Island bales through the process from ginning to spinning. In fact, the only persons permitted to see this chain-of-process, aside from the spinner's employees, are the fabric weavers and sock knitters ... and then only rarely. Most of them simply haven't the staff or the time to perform such verification and simply accept the spinner's certification.

The third method is simple: you could take the word of the third-assistant salesperson who has been with the retailer for at least three months and has no plans to migrate to new employment for at least another three months: He was told that "it is Sea Island".

*An Aside*

1] Why this post? After contributing to the thread referenced above by Medwards, I became curious as to the true state of affairs, rumors, supposition, and vendor allegations being insufficient. I embarked on a research project to ascertain what is correct. The myth of Sea Island is one not easily pierced. Profiting from the term is widespread and the continuation of the shroud of mystery inures to the benefit of the profiteers, but extensive investigation yielded what I have stated above. To the best of my knowledge, it is as accurate as can be determined.

2] Having tested one product with one of the certain methods above, I can attest to the fact that the Alumo Sea Island fabric is genuine. Having tested another two products with the other of the two certain methods, I am convinced that the Sea Island cotton socks of Bresciani, and those in development by Marcoliani, are genuine. I have also investigated a number of other "Sea Island" claims, specifically by sock makers, and found that, while a percentage of the cotton used is genuine Sea Island, other E.L.S. and L.S. cottons are combined with the Sea Island to produce a less expensive yarn. I prefer not to state the specific products.

3] A short word about Pima cotton. Often overlooked, geniune Pima cotton is actually an extra-long staple cotton ranging in length from 1.5"-1.675". Though much emanates from Peru, a goodly amount is still grown in the American Southwest. This is a prized, expensive cotton. The American varieties are used by a number of European makers, including Zimmerli, Marcoliani, Bresciani, Facenti, and Albini, for some of their top-of-the-line products. It should not be ignored in one's search for fine quality.

~ ~ ~​


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

In addition to cotton quality. Mercerization is really important too. You cant imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn. 

Much smooth and bright surface can be seen.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

kemalony said:


> Mercerization is really important too. You cant imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn.


 The reason one can't imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn is that no better maker would even consider using a non-mercerized cotton yarn. Hence, most who value the quality of their clothing have not experienced non-mercerized yarns. In today's market, basic mercerization barely qualifies as a selling-point and is taken as a given.

Better makers will use yarns that are not only mercerized, but double-mercerized and then singed. Singing (singe-ing) is not crooning at the cottons. It is the process of pulling the yarn through a flame to burn off excess cotton hair-fuzz and create an even smoother finished yarn.


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> The reason one can't imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn is that no better maker would even consider using a non-mercerized cotton yarn. Hence, most who value the quality of their clothing have not experienced non-mercerized yarns. In today's market, basic mercerization barely qualifies as a selling-point and is taken as a given.
> 
> Better makers will use yarns that are not only mercerized, but double-mercerized and then singed. Singing (singe-ing) is not crooning at the cottons. It is the process of pulling the yarn through a flame to burn off excess cotton hair-fuzz and create an even smoother finished yarn.


Right order is first process is singing (gazing) and next process is mercerization.not singing after mercerization.

Mercerization ungazed yarn is meaningless coz brighness of yarn cant be seen under hairly surface.


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> The reason one can't imagine the difference between raw cotton yarn and mercerized cotton yarn is that no better maker would even consider using a non-mercerized cotton yarn. Hence, most who value the quality of their clothing have not experienced non-mercerized yarns. In today's market, basic mercerization barely qualifies as a selling-point and is taken as a given.
> 
> Better makers will use yarns that are not only mercerized, but double-mercerized and then singed. Singing (singe-ing) is not crooning at the cottons. It is the process of pulling the yarn through a flame to burn off excess cotton hair-fuzz and create an even smoother finished yarn.


Right order writen below
1.process is singing (gazing) 
2.process is mercerization.
not singing after mercerization.

Mercerization ungazed yarn is meaningless coz brighness of yarn cant be seen under hairly surface.


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## Earnest in Brooklyn (Feb 20, 2010)

*Bravo...*



Alexander Kabbaz said:


> *What is Sea Island cotton, why is it better, and how does it relate to other top Extra-Long Staple (E.L.S.) Cottons?*
> 
> *An Aside*
> 
> ...


Alexander, thanks for taking the time to post such a well-researched and thoughtful post. Thank you! If I may take this discussion to the more practical. For dress shirts (and dress shirts only, not shorts), what strategy would you advise for someone such as myself who doesn't have that much knowledge, but is looking for fine, light, breathable fabric regardless of the season? My strategy has been to sort of feel the fabric on the shirt and not get too hung up on what name it is being marketed under, etc. In your experience, is Pima cotton more along what I am describing than "Sea Island"? I welcome any advice you may have for a novice such as myself.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

kemalony said:


> Right order writen below
> 1.process is singing (gazing)
> 2.process is mercerization.
> not singing after mercerization.
> ...


Your order is, of course, correct for single-mercerized cottons but not always for double-mercerized. These, in the best cases, are gassed after the first mercerization and before the second.

Your allegation that single-mercerization is a meaningful criterion in relation to high quality goods is puffery. Mercerization of high quality cotton is taken for granted. It is not an "extra". The same applies to two-ply which again, in better quality cotton goods, is a given and not an extra.


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Your order is, of course, correct for single-mercerized cottons but not always for double-mercerized. These, in the best cases, are gassed after the first mercerization and before the second.
> 
> Your allegation that single-mercerization is a meaningful criterion in relation to high quality goods is puffery. Mercerization of high quality cotton is taken for granted. It is not an "extra". The same applies to two-ply which again, in better quality cotton goods, is a given and not an extra.


again wrong order 
right order is 
1. gassing as dry process
2.mercerization as wet process in higher be' 28-35 depends on room temprature 
3.Neutralization wet process
4.mercerization as wet process in lower be' 10-15 depends on room temprature.
5.Neutralization wet process and finishing processes

Thats our business since 1977.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Earnest in Brooklyn said:


> Alexander, thanks for taking the time to post such a well-researched and thoughtful post. Thank you! If I may take this discussion to the more practical. For dress shirts (and dress shirts only, not shorts), what strategy would you advise for someone such as myself who doesn't have that much knowledge, but is looking for fine, light, breathable fabric regardless of the season? My strategy has been to sort of feel the fabric on the shirt and not get too hung up on what name it is being marketed under, etc. In your experience, is Pima cotton more along what I am describing than "Sea Island"? I welcome any advice you may have for a novice such as myself.


Though not quite as smooth-textured, Pima cotton is a wonderful variety. It is also a better value as the Pima name does not command anywhere near the premium of Sea Island.

You could, however, be a bit more specific and seek shirts of fabrics made by some of the better mills. These would include Alumo, Albini (and their license for the Thomas Mason brand), Riva, Bonfanti, and SIC Tessuti. You could also be specific as to yarn numbers, often erroneously termed "thread count", by looking for 100s (or better, i.e. 120s, 140s) and seeking a 2x2. You might want to read this Discourse on Shirt Fabrics, knowledge of the information in which will serve to silence all but the most experienced salespersons.

The country of origin of the fabric is consequential as well with Switzerland and Italy being on top of the list and none other being remotely close.

In the final analysis, your "feeling the fabric" solution is 50% of the battle. Get yourself a swatch (at least large enough to cover your hand) of a good fabric to use as a comparitor. Also, in the shirt discourse, you'll learn that how the fabric feels after a dozen launderings is influenced by other important factors.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

kemalony said:


> again wrong order
> right order is
> 1. gassing as dry process
> 2.mercerization as wet process in higher be' 28-35 depends on room temprature
> ...


Kemalony: How you perform your processes since 1977 is fine. I know nothing of Turkish spinneries and nothing of Turkish weavers except that, after testing a variety, I do not use Turkish fabrics in my shirt studio.

That said, for certain shirt silks, we have our own internal singing operation which is performed after first merc, first singe, second merc, neut, and winding to remove the ghosts of hair-fuzz present even in the finest German cotton thread.

I am not disputing your method of doing things in any way. In kind I ask you to please accept that yours is not the only way. Thank you.


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Kemalony: How you perform your processes since 1977 is fine. I know nothing of Turkish spinneries and nothing of Turkish weavers except that, after testing a variety, I do not use Turkish fabrics in my shirt studio.
> 
> That said, for certain shirt silks, we have our own internal singing operation which is performed after first merc, first singe, second merc, neut, and winding to remove the ghosts of hair-fuzz present even in the finest German cotton thread.
> 
> I am not disputing your method of doing things in any way. In kind I ask you to please accept that yours is not the only way. Thank you.


We dont produce shirt fabric but we have friends produce high quality shirt fabric. They export to italy. If you want to try I can send you fabric samples.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

... :icon_headagainstwal


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## JustJosh (Nov 25, 2009)

> ... :icon_headagainstwal


Pretty sure you're going to need one of these.


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## max b (Dec 11, 2009)

very interesting post. always very nice for producers to see people is caring about quality and want to have more information about it. This forum is a pay back for all the effort we made to reach the top quality


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> . Singing (singe-ing) is not crooning at the cottons.


I'm glad you clarified that.


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

kemalony said:


> We dont produce shirt fabric but we have friends produce high quality shirt fabric. They export to italy. If you want to try I can send you fabric samples.


Soktas?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

RJman said:


> Soktas?


Couldn't be. He said _high_ quality.


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## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

Ok great posts. Now lets get down to the netty gritty for a newbie please.

AK can you elaborate on the statement that Giza 45 quality supply will only suffice for the nest 10 years! Do I need to rush out and buy all the Giza 45 shirts I can now as price will rise very soon?

Can you contrast the true Sea Islands with the like of Salvatore Triplo (sp?) from Alumo as well as Culinan from DJA.

For instance I see that DJA has Sea Island 120: would this be softer or less so than for example a 170 or 200 ect

Basically I love very shiny yet super soft shirting. The softer and shinnier the better. I also have very sensitive skin (No I'm not a wuss lol!) but am always hot so like light weight. Can you provide a pecking order of specific characteristics of shirting from the likes of Aluma, DJA ect. Ultimately what is it I need to covet!!!


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

RJman said:


> Soktas?


I know Soktas their quality is really good too but my friends from different company. but if needed we can make connection with Söktaş too.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Ok great posts. Now lets get down to the netty gritty for a newbie please.
> 
> AK can you elaborate on the statement that Giza 45 quality supply will only suffice for the nest 10 years! Do I need to rush out and buy all the Giza 45 shirts I can now as price will rise very soon?
> 
> ...


Dear Wuss, 

I am friendly Egypt's largest grower of E.L.S. cottons. It is from him that I know of the deterioration in Giza seed. Not to worry, they expect to divine a replacement in time. As for price - the premium is already there.

Salvatore Triplo is a 160s 3x3. I suspect it to be Giza ... but it's so darn wonderful I don't really care. AFAIK there is nobody using 160s Sea Island yarn. The highest with which I am familar is the 140s Alumo. It is easily as soft as the Albini and Alumo 170s & 200s and much slinkier. We have trouble controlling it while sewing because it it so slippery.

I don't try to remain familiar with Albini's style names ... just yarn numbers, thread counts, and quality. They have too many names! What fabric is the Culinan?

Covet for cool, shiny, soft & slinky?

#1] The Alumo striated 170s voile solids. 
#2] The Albini 200s and 240s. 
#3] My antique DJA voile plaids from Scotland (shameless plug!)
#4] My antique Horokses voiles (ibid)
#5] Bresciani's Sea Island socks
#6] Any other Alumo voile
#7] Thomas Mason's Sandringham 140s line

You would probably be too hot in the Salvatore Triplo.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

kemalony said:


> I know Soktas their quality is really good too but my friends from different company. but if needed we can make connection with Söktaş too.


The quality of Chinese grown cotton does not compare favorably to the quality of Egyptian grown cotton. I don't believe we are measuring the "high" in high quality using the same yardstick.


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> The quality of Chinese grown cotton does not compare favorably to the quality of Egyptian grown cotton. I don't believe we are measuring the "high" in high quality using the same yardstick.


Of course chinese grown cotton does not compare to quality of Egyptian grown cotton.As long as I know, high quality shirt fabrics must be made of PIMA or Giza 86

How do you think to spin Ne 150/1 even Ne 60/1 by chinese grown cotton ?
Who invented that machine which can spin high counts with short length fibre cotton (chinese grown cotton) ?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

kemalony said:


> Of course chinese grown cotton does not compare to quality of Egyptian grown cotton.As long as I know, high quality shirt fabrics must be made of PIMA or Giza 86
> 
> How do you think to spin Ne 150/1 even Ne 60/1 by chinese grown cotton ?
> Who invented that machine which can spin high counts with short length fibre cotton (chinese grown cotton) ?


Giza 86 does not fall in the "high quality cotton" category.

Firstly, Giza 86, with a maximum fiber length 1.25", is not an E.L.S. cotton. It is simply a long staple like many other lower quality varieties.
Secondly, at 60% of the total Egyptian cotton production, it is not one of the rare, prized, high quality species.
Thirdly, Giza 86 is one of the "Egyptian" cottons often grown in other countries with India heading the list.

For future reference, Giza 45 is still produced in small quantities of about 600 tons annually even though the yield-per-acre - and concomitant economic viability - is low due to the deteriorating seed quality. These 600 tons of the 1.5" fibre length are almost exclusively reserverd for use by the top Swiss spinner.
The only other viable cotton besides Sea Island, also produced in very small quantities, is Giza 87 which also has a staple length of 1.5".

Pima Cotton is usually of good quality depending upon where it was grown (preferably the American Southwest) and whether the proper cultivation regimen was followed. On the scale on non-Sea Island cottons it rates third position after Giza 45 and Giza 88.


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## Sean1982 (Sep 7, 2009)

I have a shirt made of this cotton, and it's very soft indeed. If I were a rich man (ya da diddle diddle diddle dum....) I would get some Sea Island undershirts!


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## kylekb (Feb 15, 2010)

I have a few made to measure ones (dunno if they are m2m or bespoke, i've been fitted several times by the people, i picked everything out), but anyways sea island is really good, it feels nice, its very soft, and almost silky in appearance.


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## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks AK

The only mention of Cullinan I have seen comes form the Albini website under the DJA collection.

https://albinigroup.com/en/i_brand/dja/famiglie

They market it as follows:

"The fabric is made from *two-for-one twisted yarn with a count of NE 300/2*, the finest ever produced in the world, with a strength below 100 grams. The best extra-long staple Egyptian Giza45 cotton is used as the raw material, from plantations cultivated in a small area east of the Nile Delta - ***** S'Ad - representing just 0.4% of Egypt's total cotton production. To obtain the 300/2 count, we select the finest Giza45 bales and pick those with the best qualities. We look for the utmost fineness, length and strength and just 2% of the Giza45 bales we examine meet these specifications."

BTW what does NE stand for?

One last question. I purchased a year ago at a huge discount a shirt that was clearly indicated "made in china" but is of a coton so soft and shiny I have never seen anything like this since. Admittedly i have not seen many true quality shirtings but in comparison to one shirt I had MTM locally with TM Soveriegn shirting the chinese cloth feels significantly softer. I suspect the Soveriegn is of much higher quality but was wondering what kind of stunt the chinese are pulling to obtain such softness? Its clear this cloth will not age well as only a few washings later and it is not as shiny any more!!!!


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Thanks AK
> 
> The only mention of Cullinan I have seen comes form the Albini website under the DJA collection.
> 
> ...


NE=Number

I've a piece of the 300/2. As nice as it feels, because of the increased yarn count, it is not a technically good cloth for quality sewing. In sewing, the needle is not supposed to pierce the yarns. It is supposed to spread them apart and go inbetween them. With 250 yarns per inch, for certain the needle will be breaking yarns. This won't be visible at first. After a few launderings, it will become apparent.

When the European mills surpassed 170s and began producing 200s, 240s, and now 300s, we entered an era of one-upsmanship. Now the Chinese (as you noted) have entered the game with a 200s and Turkey's Soktas is producing a 200s from Chinese cotton.

Unlike the Giza 45, the Chinese cotton does not handle well the high yarn numbers due to its shorter staple and other characteristics. This will cause the premature deterioration to which you refer. Yarn prices indicate this with the Chinese at a buck fifty per pound and the better Giza 45 above four dollars.

Although I make shirts from the 200s and 240s - and will make them from the 300s - I give the above warning to all who choose to tread in those waters.

As the first in the U.S. to have used the Alumo 170s upon its introduction back in the early 1980s, I consider it the finest cloth on an overall basis. It has none of the detrimental deterioration characteristics of the higher numbers, is not too fine to sew excellently, and after a dozen launderings feels like butter.


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## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

I recently bought some 40 year old English made Sea island cotton. It was sitting in the back shelves of a fabric converter
all i can say, is that the fabric is fantastic.
I show it to people in the trade and even they ar impressed.
there is one quality that could be a 140/2 the others are 120/2 or 100/2

sadly the colors are kind of odd!

when you feel this fabric, you understand what the fuss is about. it just feels better with each wash


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## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Shirtmaven said:


> I recently bought some 40 year old English made Sea island cotton. It was sitting in the back shelves of a fabric converter
> all i can say, is that the fabric is fantastic.
> I show it to people in the trade and even they ar impressed.
> there is one quality that could be a 140/2 the others are 120/2 or 100/2
> ...


Let me know if you pick up any Zendeline. :devil:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

RJman said:


> Let me know if you pick up any Zendeline. :devil:


DJA Zendaline c.1950. $3,000/yd. 36". How much you want?


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## archduke (Nov 21, 2003)

Mr AK (or anyone else),

Are the Zimmerli undershirts made of sea island? If not then what type of cotton? They sure are good.


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## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

other then Mr. kabbaz
there is one other shirtmaker who has inventory dating from the 60/70's fantastic stuff. there are lots of amazing fabrics.
one problem is that he has not cut a shirt in years. but yet, he will not sell off his inventory.
one day I will buy the inventory from his daughter.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Shirtmaven said:


> other then Mr. kabbaz
> there is one other shirtmaker who has inventory dating from the 60/70's fantastic stuff. there are lots of amazing fabrics.
> one problem is that he has not cut a shirt in years. but yet, he will not sell off his inventory.


Without knowing details, I suspect that nonetheless this is because he doesn't want to admit to himself that his cutting days really are over.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

archduke said:


> Mr AK (or anyone else),
> 
> Are the Zimmerli undershirts made of sea island? If not then what type of cotton? They sure are good.


It depends upon which Zimmerli line. The Royal Classic and Richelieu are Giza 45. The new Urban Chic is American Pima. And there are others.


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

a!!!!1 said:


> What's so good about this stuff?


Salty sea breeze taste, marsh bouquet - aphrodisiacal, mon.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

jamgood said:


> Salty sea breeze taste, marsh bouquet - aphrodisiacal, mon.


You forgot the 72 virgins ...


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> NE=Number
> ...
> Now the Chinese (as you noted) have entered the game with a 200s and Turkey's Soktas is producing a 200s from Chinese cotton.
> ...


Can you prove what you said ?
I called Soktas yesterday. She said that they are using egypthian cotton for high quality shirt fabric.
for more info


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

kemalony said:


> Can you prove what you said ?
> I called Soktas yesterday. She said that they are using egypthian cotton for high quality shirt fabric.
> for more info


If there were a worthwhile reason - something beyond your argumentative nature - to do so, I could. Personally, I would rather not involve others in this pissing contest.

As I said above, I am friendly with the firm which owns the stock of Egyptian Giza 45. They do not sell to Soktas. "Egyptian" cotton (cotton grown from varying qualities of Giza seeds) is produced in many countries including India and China. That does not make it Egyptian cotton except as a genus. It is as Egyptian as French fries are French.

If they are using one of the lower grades of Egyptian grown Giza such as 86, more power to them. I have no way of knowing that because you state only "egypthian cotton".

Is there any possibility you could forego this one-upsmanship in favor of returning to answering members' questions about cotton quality?


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## andreyb (Dec 24, 2003)

Alex Kabbaz, Shirtmaven, others,

For some reason I believed that sea island cotton results in thickier and softier ("butter-like") cloth. This is certainly the case with sea island socks (Pantherella) and polos (Smedley) I tried. But the prior discussion makes me think that this belief is wrong. So, does it? Or does it not?

Andrey


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

andreyb said:


> Alex Kabbaz, Shirtmaven, others,
> 
> For some reason I believed that sea island cotton results in thickier and softier ("butter-like") cloth. This is certainly the case with sea island socks (Pantherella) and polos (Smedley) I tried. But the prior discussion makes me think that this belief is wrong. So, does it? Or does it not?
> 
> Andrey


You can't tell from the Pantherellas because the cotton is not pure Sea Island.

You may feel this way because Sea Island is usually woven as 120s or 140s which are heavier than the high count 200s+.

As for softer, yes, it is softer.


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## andreyb (Dec 24, 2003)

Thank you for the clarification!

Andrey


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