# Who Makes the Best OCBD Now (2014)



## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm in the market to replenish my supply of OCBDs. Is there a go-to day-to-day version beyond the usual suspects?

I've always been a fan of the BB OCBD, both the traditional fit US-made version and the 346 version found in the outlet stores. And my one M&S version was good but didn't last as long as I would have hoped (or expected from the advertising). The PRL logoed version is more than acceptable, but not really appropriate at the office except for Friday. And finally, the LE Hyde Park version is acceptable, but the fabric is a little coarse (I call it crunky) after repeated washings for some reason.

Where do you get your OCBDs in 2014?


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## FalconLorenzo (Aug 14, 2013)

I have three PRL that I like enough but they don't have a pocket and te collar roll is almost in negative territory. The rest of my OCBDs are Brooks Brothers, which I love!


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

J. Press, hands down for me. 

Mercer if you've got the cash.


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## Dr. D (Nov 19, 2010)

I think it depends on what is important to you:

Good old Brooks is $64 every day with your corporate card discount, as long as you buy 3 at a time (although they drop to $50 during their best sales after Father's Day and Christmas). They still have a decent collar length although they are lined, and with 4 different fits there is something for almost everyone.

I have never tried Press but they can be had for around $75 each during their many sales, and of course they come with their famous flap pocket.

From most accounts the Land's End Hyde Park is no longer a good buy - increased pricing and drastically smaller collar points have taken them out of consideration for many.

Kamakura is supposedly excellent at mimicking the classic ivy OCBD, but their wonky sizing and slim fits are not for everyone. If you are in NYC I would recommend trying them in person to see how they fit because they don't use standard US sizing.

I agree with Patrick that Mercer is the best option, cost be damned. You can get a long unlined collar, flap pocket if you like, and they even carry the elusive pink uni stripe. At $115-130 each they aren't cheap but they do have a discount for your first purchase to get you hooked:
https://www.mercerandsons.com/first_time_buyers.htm


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

BB Traditional fit OCBD's, with no reservations!


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

I have PRL ocbd's that have been in normal rotation since 1994 (yes, same shirts going strong after 20 years of normal wear). I also LOVE the ocbd's that I get from Perlis in New Orleans.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Mercer. Hands down winner. Also have Bill's which is the heaviest OCBD I have seen to date. The only thing holding Bill's back is a shorter collar...


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

mercer makes great shirts, no doubt. But don't you all think they are a little full cut? The ones I own are tents and see little to no wear.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

No mention yet of Gitman Brothers; interesting.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Almost my entire collection is Ralph Lauren, and i really haven't found better bang for my buck when found on discount. Most of mine came from Marshalls/TJ Maxx at ~$40/shirt, and have all held up very well (it helps that I hang dry, don't dry clean, an iron myself). Also, regardless of cut, they seem to fit me very well. I have a 34-34.5 arm length, so their 16 34/35 fits me about as well OTR as if I had purchased custom. 

Im sure I'll expand to higher quality options one day, but for right now I know that, for $40, I can purchase a 16 34/35 or Medium RL shirt without trying it on and know that it'll fit well and hold up well.


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## Dr. D (Nov 19, 2010)

firedancer said:


> mercer makes great shirts, no doubt. But don't you all think they are a little full cut? The ones I own are tents and see little to no wear.


Mercer will make a slightly slimmer shirt - about 4" less in the body. While admittedly it is not the slimmest of cuts, it's in the same neighborhood as my old Brooks OCBDs.


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## dkoernert (May 31, 2011)

MaxBuck said:


> No mention yet of Gitman Brothers; interesting.


I have a few Gitman OCBDs that are phenomenal, but my vote still goes to BB any day.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

firedancer said:


> mercer makes great shirts, no doubt. But don't you all think they are a little full cut? The ones I own are tents and see little to no wear.


They are made full. If you want slimmer you have to work with them. I agree with Mercer's view. A shirt should be full. The construction and quality are the important characteristic, not the cut which can be adjusted to personal preference.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

MaxBuck said:


> No mention yet of Gitman Brothers; interesting.


My experience tells me that Gitman uses the best fabric and has the best construction. They last almost forever and stay good-looking during that time.

Until very recently I've worn traditional fit Brooks shirts (non-permanent press) and J. Press shirts exclusively: Brooks if I wanted a looser fit, Press if I wanted a tighter more fitted look.

I've started to wear L.L. Bean OCBD's in the past few weeks. They deliver a lot at their price point. The fabric is slightly rough next to Brooks or Press, but the construction holds its own next to these. The fit is not as loose as Brooks, but not as fitted as Press. The permanent press treatment, like that of the khaki pants from Brooks, is transparent to the wearer and works extremely well. I really like throwing the Bean shirts into the washer, then into the dryer, then pulling them out for folding up or wearing right away. The only drawback of the Bean shirts (which all these OCBD's suffer) is that they'll be wearable here only in air-conditioning by mid-April.


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## dkoernert (May 31, 2011)

That first statement is why I like my Gitmans so much. I have a couple that say 2-ply on the tag and they are THICK and very well made, but this renders them absolutely unwearable during the warmer months.


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## Christophe (Oct 27, 2010)

bd79cc said:


> My experience tells me that Gitman uses the best fabric and has the best construction. They last almost forever and stay good-looking during that time.
> 
> Until very recently I've worn traditional fit Brooks shirts (non-permanent press) and J. Press shirts exclusively: Brooks if I wanted a looser fit, Press if I wanted a tighter more fitted look.
> 
> I've started to wear L.L. Bean OCBD's in the past few weeks. They deliver a lot at their price point. The fabric is slightly rough next to Brooks or Press, but the construction holds its own next to these. The fit is not as loose as Brooks, but not as fitted as Press. The permanent press treatment, like that of the khaki pants from Brooks, is transparent to the wearer and works extremely well. I really like throwing the Bean shirts into the washer, then into the dryer, then pulling them out for folding up or wearing right away. The only drawback of the Bean shirts (which all these OCBD's suffer) is that they'll be wearable here only in air-conditioning by mid-April.


Interesting that you mentioned LL Bean, I've been considering trying their oxfords myself for a while but was unsure about the non-iron treatment. How is the collar roll? I can't really tell how long the points are, but they look passable at least and for the price it seems to be a decent value.


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## CMDC (Jan 31, 2009)

I continue to be a Brooks man when it comes to my ocbds. I'm probably an outlier here but I actually like the lined collar more than unlined. Gives it a little more substance. I also find that the JPress ones shrink much more, especially in terms of length, making it harder to keep them tucked in. Now that it seems that some Press ocbd's are being made in Garland, it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison with the Brooks.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

My dad has worn ll bean OCBDs exclusively for years and they've held up great, my only qualm with purchasing them myself is the non iron issue.


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## sarakali (May 19, 2013)

+1 for J. Press. Their fit is perfect for guys who don't want tenting around their waist but still prefer the comfort of a traditional OCBD (I hesitate to say trim). The flap pocket is also a nice distinguishing feature. Only drawback is that they require considerable breaking in as the collar and cuffs are stiff and heavily lined.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

CMDC said:


> Now that it seems that some Press ocbd's are being made in Garland, it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison with the Brooks.


Ratio MTM is also from Garland, and at $98 is a bit less pricey than Mercer (and offers fits for the non-obese as well). They also have a $20 discount for first-timers.
https://www.ratioclothing.com/t-landing-offer.aspx


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

CMDC said:


> Now that it seems that some Press ocbd's are being made in Garland, it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison with the Brooks.


Interestingly, to me anyway, I have not seen any regular oxford cloth Press shirts in Garland. They have all been pinpoints and end on end.


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Gitman for me. I haven't taken the Mercer plunge yet, but I've really liked the Gitmans I've picked up. Much more substantial than BB.


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

Having a tall slender build, I really am quite happy with PRL Custom Fit. It's a must iron, and I don't miss having a pocket. They are also widely available at discounted rates. 

I am very tempted to purchase some Brooks Brothers shirts, but I am hesitant due to their having very few shirts available in a trimmer cut that aren't non-iron.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Thank you all for your responses. A couple of upside surprises with the mention of Ratio and LLB. With BB, M&S, Press, and Gitman, it looks like the new boss is the same as the old boss. 

As an aside, I frequently worry about BB, as their website is increasing filled with clothing that I have no intention of ever considering for purchase, but it's good to know that their OCBD is still high on many's lists.


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## fred johnson (Jul 22, 2009)

For the money you can't beat PRL OCBD's which usually can be had for $40 at marshalls, tj maxx or the outlets. I used to wear these and some BB's which I still have from 30+ years ago. I have recently taken most of the PRL to the thrifts because of the smallish collar points and the fact that I picked up several original collar BB's at the thrifts which were in excellent to new condition. I prefer the longer collar points of the BB's. I recently got a couple of J Press striped OCBD's but have yet to wear them. Another source to consider is Tommy Higfigger which has decent collar point length, can be had for about the cost of PRL at the usual places but has less of a collar roll.


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## TradThrifter (Oct 22, 2012)

I wear mainly BB and VV shirts these days. My shirts tend to last forever so I don't buy them often. Just have a collection over the years averaging probably 2 shirts a year maybe lol. Then I rotate the oldest ones to the goodwill.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Christophe said:


> Interesting that you mentioned LL Bean, I've been considering trying their oxfords myself for a while but was unsure about the non-iron treatment. How is the collar roll? I can't really tell how long the points are, but they look passable at least and for the price it seems to be a decent value.


The collar roll on the LL Bean shirts is probably the best of all of the brands mentioned so far. Although I don't like the perma-press treatment, it is not as bad as a lot of other shirts on the market, and it works great. I never use a dryer; I put mine on hangers right out of the washer spin cycle and they look perfect. For the price, they can't be beat.

My favorite OCBD is the Ralph Lauren Blake, which is no longer made. The material is thick, comfortable, and holds up very well. I wish I could recommend Ralph Lauren, but they do not know how to market to men. They keep changing their lines, colors, and fits so much they must think they are marketing to teenyboppers. I am going back to the Ralph Lauren store for more, but I know whatever I find is going to be pot luck. Changing their product lines so much puts them into the category of a cheap fashion brand trying to find the cheapest vendor in Asia, certainly not a brand that sells OCBDs for $100 a pop.

I pay no attention to Land's End. Their sizes are limited in comparison to the other brands, their collars are too short, and they are always changing their product lines. Maybe things will change now that they have been spun off from Sears, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it.

When I have the time, I am going to try L&S Custom Clothiers as I have heard many good things about them. Their made-to-measure shirts are made at a factory in the US, and you can get measured for them in the showroom on West 45th Street. I will report back after I try them.


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## TradThrifter (Oct 22, 2012)

Agreed with LL Bean shirt collar roll. I own one and it is just so perfect it's magical. I actually like the non-ironlike treatment they put on the shirts. Keeps them nice and wrinkle free with minimal work. And it doesn't look hard and starchy like other non-iron shirts.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

Has LL Bean changed their collar in the past 4 years? I bought some of their must iron oxfords a couple of years ago at an outlet and was greatly disappointed by the short collar points. The collar was not only short (maybe 3 inches), but also placed rather low on the neckline for me.

I like Gitman shirts, though their collar could stand to be a bit longer. Brooks is probably my default, but for bigger guys, the narrow yolk can sometimes make the shoulders look a bit odd.


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## bluenose (Nov 23, 2009)

Best oxford cloth is BB. Best shirt (i. e. collar) is Mercer but their oxford cloth is thinner, stiffer and not as comfy as BB. However, when the BBs wear out I'll replace them with Mercers. The collar is perfect.


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## benjclark (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm getting to where I love Kamakura shirts. My second order of shirts landed a couple weeks ago. Their "wonky" fit (according to some) is perfect for me, but I'm a little taller than avg. (6' 2") and have long arms. They just don't use US Standard measurements, so they sound strange -- you'll have to check the other side of your tape measure to translate I suppose. For me, the New York Classic fit is the best fitting (for me) off the rack shirt I've come across -- great fabric (slightly more refined than many Oxford Cloth shirts), higher arm holes than "normal", shoulders that fit (I'm 20.5" across), plenty of arm (36" for me), and cuff button placement that allow for a wristwatch. I'd call the fit generous without being baggy. This is comparing Brooks Bros, Polo, and Lands End.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

I stocked up on a few Gitman Bros ocbds a while back. They don't get much wear because they are on the scratchy side after numerous washes. The material and construction are spot on. 

Jeff Rose makes some awesome OCBDs with a great unlined collar and wonderful fabric and construction. I get lots of plaids and tatersall from them. Wonderful for layering. 

BB are fine for an old standby.


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## Steve Smith (Jan 12, 2008)

universitystripe said:


> I am very tempted to purchase some Brooks Brothers shirts, but I am hesitant due to their having very few shirts available in a trimmer cut that aren't non-iron.


BB Made in USA Supima OCBD's are rare? How many do you need?


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## straw sandals (Apr 14, 2010)

+1. I also love my Kamakura shirts. The only ones that fit are the Tokyo slim, which is slim indeed. They are very beautifully made and exceptionally comfortable. And I love that they will never go on sale.



benjclark said:


> I'm getting to where I love Kamakura shirts. My second order of shirts landed a couple weeks ago. Their "wonky" fit (according to some) is perfect for me, but I'm a little taller than avg. (6' 2") and have long arms. They just don't use US Standard measurements, so they sound strange -- you'll have to check the other side of your tape measure to translate I suppose. For me, the New York Classic fit is the best fitting (for me) off the rack shirt I've come across -- great fabric (slightly more refined than many Oxford Cloth shirts), higher arm holes than "normal", shoulders that fit (I'm 20.5" across), plenty of arm (36" for me), and cuff button placement that allow for a wristwatch. I'd call the fit generous without being baggy. This is comparing Brooks Bros, Polo, and Lands End.


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## benjclark (Mar 14, 2012)

straw sandals said:


> +1. I also love my Kamakura shirts. The only ones that fit are the Tokyo slim, which is slim indeed. They are very beautifully made and exceptionally comfortable. And I love that they will never go on sale.


I didn't even mention that! They are beautifully made! The interior seams .... I keep asking them for a popover. I finally got a message via Facebook "We do not have any immediate plans to have them in our New York store but maybe in the future!"


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## Spin Evans (Feb 2, 2013)

universitystripe said:


> Having a tall slender build, I really am quite happy with PRL Custom Fit. It's a must iron, and I don't miss having a pocket. They are also widely available at discounted rates.
> 
> I am very tempted to purchase some Brooks Brothers shirts, but I am hesitant due to their having very few shirts available in a trimmer cut that aren't non-iron.


I purchased my must-iron BB OCBDs in October, and I *really* wish I had gotten them years sooner. Absolutely some of my most worn shirts, and the ES fits me very well while still being comfortable (unlike the vast majority of slim shirts). I generally don't recommend buying things that are that expensive, and rarely buy anything retail these days, but BB OCBDs are an exception.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm wearing an old LLB right now that I agree has the best collar roll, great fabric like Press, and construction as good as BB. So it's my favorite, but I doubt you can buy one like it anymore.

I'll keep buying BB unless they're no longer available. or there's some other good reason to switch. I still think BB, on sale, is the best deal in a shirt of any kind. Over their life they may be cheaper than T-shirts.


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## sjk (Dec 1, 2007)

Mercer- Unlined collar and cuff (or barely lined, with very soft, flexible interlining) are most comfortable. Most old-school manufacturer. Not cheap in the least. Their prices have probably gone up since I started typing. I favor a fuller cut shirt, but David can slim the body if you need that which works well (for an additional fee, which makes the already expensive shirt even more so). One of the few sources for pink uni-stripe. There is a simplicity to the shirt that can't be duplicated. The neck size is, in my experience, best approached by adding an additional 1/2" due to shrinkage, which may also to contribute to the perception of these shirts being like a tent.

BB- Best value overall, especially with the after Christmas sale, which puts the must-iron Supima OCBD at < $50/ shirt. Collar and cuff lining could be made thinner, which would make the shirt even better. Or removed entirely, getting back to their roots.

PRL- Best sport striping selection, but what would it take to give us a pocket? Put the pony down by the hem, like they used to do with the "Big Shirt" from the '90s, if you really need to brand the shirt that much. Collars and cuffs are also unlined or minimally lined (I've never cut one open), a feature which they don't get much credit for. Shorter collar roll which isn't much of a problem if the shirt is worn open neck as I tend to do.

Kamakura- Stiff collar and cuffs, although not a deal breaker. Odd sizing, I agree. I bought a couple which had beautiful stripings and actually had pattern matching on the shoulder seams. A testament to their overall quality tailoring and stitching.

Ratio- Was pleasantly surprised here. Excellent communication and customer service. Got them to do a true unlined collar and cuff for a button down collar. If the shirt is not made to your exact specification, they'll redo it.


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## Mike75 (Jul 18, 2013)

Was at Orvis today and saw some Gitman OCBDs on display. Was interested until I looked at the sizing. S, M, L and XL? For more than $100? Sorry, that may be fine for JCrew, but not for a shirt with that price tag.


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## AncientMadder (Apr 21, 2011)

Trad heresy, but I switched from Brooks Brothers to Uniqlo OCBDs a year ago, when I stopped wearing jacket and tie daily. Not an option if you dress up, but for casual wear I couldn't recommend them more.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

sjk said:


> PRL- Best sport striping selection, but what would it take to give us a pocket? Put the pony down by the hem, like they used to do with the "Big Shirt" from the '90s, if you really need to brand the shirt that much. Collars and cuffs are also unlined or minimally lined (I've never cut one open), a feature which they don't get much credit for. Shorter collar roll which isn't much of a problem if the shirt is worn open neck as I tend to do.


Im probably in the minority here, but I actually prefer the logo to a pocket (neither would be my ultimate preference). I just don't like pockets, very few of my shirts have them and since I refuse to use them, they're just useless for me. For me, the pony logo is small enough that I don't consider it to be obtrusive, especially since it's usually covered by a jacket. I do wish they had longer collar points though.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Tempest said:


> Ratio MTM is also from Garland, and at $98 is a bit less pricey than Mercer (and offers fits for the non-obese as well). They also have a $20 discount for first-timers.
> https://www.ratioclothing.com/t-landing-offer.aspx


Ratio Clothing offers an unlined long roll button-down collar, back button, flap pocket, locker loop, and other tradly goodies for those in the know. They can also replicate the dimensions of a well fitting shirt. For that reason, I cannot recommend them more at $98 a pop. The quality and fabric isn't quite Mercer, fine, but having a long roll collar in the fit I want is a major plus. Email them for more info.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

None of the shirts I've seen mentioned here, short of the Mercer-Gitman price point, come near the construction quality that Lands' End Hyde Park and Royal Oxford shirts had 25 years ago. I miss those days.


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## mu2482 (Mar 4, 2013)

Unfortunately those days are long gone for LE. I sent back the last shirt I bought from them, just an awful fabric and construction was poor. I have a lot of Brooks and LL Bean that have treated me well.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

Another vote for Mercer. Their slogan used to be "baggier is better" (it even used to be put into their labels) and so their shirts more approximate the traditional Brooks Brothers OCBD cut.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

MaxBuck said:


> None of the shirts I've seen mentioned here, short of the Mercer-Gitman price point, come near the construction quality that Lands' End Hyde Park and Royal Oxford shirts had 25 years ago. I miss those days.


Why have manufacturers downgraded construction quality over the past couple decades, do you suppose? Is it simply a strategy for further maximizing profit margin? Or would it be too expensive today to construct the same shirt from the late 1980s?


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> Why have manufacturers downgraded construction quality over the past couple decades, do you suppose? Is it simply a strategy for further maximizing profit margin? Or would it be too expensive today to construct the same shirt from the late 1980s?


It's not too expensive at all. Bill's Khakis University Oxfords are heavier than those from the eighties and tailored here in the US. BB's oxford cloth was never too heavy. It was just right. Thick enough to wear casually and when occassion prompted, elegant enough for a tie.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Eric W S said:


> It's not too expensive at all. Bill's Khakis University Oxfords are heavier than those from the eighties and tailored here in the US. BB's oxford cloth was never too heavy. It was just right. Thick enough to wear casually and when occassion prompted, elegant enough for a tie.


Then it begs the question, why aren't other manufacturers offering shirts today that equal their past offerings? I see lots of complaints about short collars in today's OCBDs produced by various manufacturers. LE is one of them.


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## Semper Jeep (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm another fan of JPress. I finally gave them a shot last fall when I was in DC and was an instant convert. Now I die a little inside when I pull one of my older Brooks Brothers shirts out of the closet and see it has no flap on the pocket. I wish JPress would offer their striped shirts with the flap as well. I've been very tempted to give Mercer a try for some striped ones but haven't yet gone that route.

And I agree with some of the other posters that for the price, LLBeans are pretty darn good too. I find them a bit stiff and they take a few washings to begin to feel more comfortable but after that, they are good. I have to stick with their trim fit though as their traditional ones fit like a tent on me (and even their trim fit is still pretty large).

There seems to be a lot of love for the Gitman OCBD here. I haven't tried them out but I have a few pinpoint oxfords from Gitman Gold and they are my favorite non-OCBD shirts. They are just unbelievably comfortable. I wish my local store would carry the heavier non-pinpoint version so I could feel them in the flesh.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

^

Press did offer their blue university stripe shirt with a flap pocket at one- time in the past. I'm glad that I acquired this shirt when I had the chance. Perhaps they will offer it again in the future.

https://www.google.com/search?q=j+p...uff.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fpid%3D67477;400;510


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> Then it begs the question, why aren't other manufacturers offering shirts today that equal their past offerings? I see lots of complaints about short collars in today's OCBDs produced by various manufacturers. LE is one of them.


The primary answer is competition from cheap foreign imports that requires price competition.
Also, it's a matter of volume. The quality market is small, and there are many more boutique makers not even mentioned yet to compete with for slim profits. The value market is vastly larger and presumably more lucrative on either a per piece basis or in total sales. 
The mass market is a value shopper, and not even a very good one. They err toward the price end; they are short-sighted cheapskates. The more they are marketed to, the worse the trend continues.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Sartre said:


> Another vote for Mercer. Their slogan used to be "baggier is better" (it even used to be put into their labels) and so their shirts more approximate the traditional Brooks Brothers OCBD cut.


Does it? Because someone once compared a modern BB Traditional Fit OCBD with a BB Makers OCBD, both the same size. The vintage one was definitely less voluminous, more akin to a modern BB Regular Fit, possibly even Slim Fit. So I think the whole "every shirt fit like a tent in the good old days" rhetoric is a bit of a myth. Especially as I see movies from the '40s and '50s with men wearing shirts that don't look particularly baggy, just kind of in the middle. Perhaps they are made to measure or bespoke, but it still proves that a lot of fabric wasn't necessarily a requirement for quality.

As an aside, and I'm not criticizing anyone in this thread, I'm a bit sick of the menswear forum anti-slim crowd claiming that baggier IS better and that my moral rectitude is somehow lacking just because I prefer less fabric than they do. It's a matter of preference and a lot of guys with skinny waists and proportionally bigger necks look downright clownish wearing full cut shirts. Now the REALLY slim fit stuff today has gotten out of hand, but there are signs that it's going to relent pretty soon.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Recently, I picked up a white Hamilton OCBD, though I think the fabric was royal oxford. It had no box pleat, but otherwise seemed traditional, and it fit beautifully. However, I could only afford it because I found it at an upscale store's outlet, and on sale at that; the original price was not in my range. I wear it when I want to break the no button-downs after six rule, for it looks great under a dark suit to be worn at night.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Originally Posted by *gamma68*
Why have manufacturers downgraded construction quality over the past couple decades, do you suppose? Is it simply a strategy for further maximizing profit margin? Or would it be too expensive today to construct the same shirt from the late 1980s?



gamma68 said:


> Then it begs the question, why aren't other manufacturers offering shirts today that equal their past offerings? I see lots of complaints about short collars in today's OCBDs produced by various manufacturers. LE is one of them.


The shirts that have kept pretty much kept their quality, Bill's, BB, Gitman, and Mercer are all made in the US. The ones that everyone is complaining about because of shorter collars, Land's End, PRL, LL Bean are all made overseas. Just another example of how clothing and shoe companies cut corners after they take their production overseas.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Jovan said:


> Does it? Because someone once compared a modern BB Traditional Fit OCBD with a BB Makers OCBD, both the same size. The vintage one was definitely less voluminous, more akin to a modern BB Regular Fit, possibly even Slim Fit. So I think the whole "every shirt fit like a tent in the good old days" rhetoric is a bit of a myth. Especially as I see movies from the '40s and '50s with men wearing shirts that don't look particularly baggy, just kind of in the middle. Perhaps they are made to measure or bespoke, but it still proves that a lot of fabric wasn't necessarily a requirement for quality.
> 
> As an aside, and I'm not criticizing anyone in this thread, I'm a bit sick of the menswear forum anti-slim crowd claiming that baggier IS better and that my moral rectitude is somehow lacking just because I prefer less fabric than they do. It's a matter of preference and a lot of guys with skinny waists and proportionally bigger necks look downright clownish wearing full cut shirts. Now the REALLY slim fit stuff today has gotten out of hand, but there are signs that it's going to relent pretty soon.


Agreed, 100%. Find some older OCBDs in a thrift shop and I think you'll see that sizing was smaller then compared to today. The older shirts seem to have a more robust hand, too.

It seems to me that if a person deliberately seeks out a full cut shirt and it appears baggy, then that person is wearing a shirt that's too large. I thought one of the hallmarks of a well-dressed person was wearing clothes that fit properly.

However, if you enjoy wearing shirts that appear baggy, so be it. It's just not my particular taste.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

efdll said:


> Recently, I picked up a white Hamilton OCBD, though I think the fabric was royal oxford. It had no box pleat, but otherwise seemed traditional, and it fit beautifully. However, I could only afford it because I found it at an upscale store's outlet, and on sale at that; the original price was not in my range. I wear it when I want to break the no button-downs after six rule, for it looks great under a dark suit to be worn at night.


That is an excellent find. I'm still not sure how I feel about OCBDs made with royal oxford, but I guess it's not so terribly different to broadcloth shirts with a button-down collar.

Personally, I don't prefer the box pleat. If it comes on a RTW shirt that is otherwise great I don't mind too much, though I always go for side or no back pleats if getting MTM.



gamma68 said:


> Agreed, 100%. Find some older OCBDs in a thrift shop and I think you'll see that sizing was smaller then compared to today. The older shirts seem to have a more robust hand, too.
> 
> It seems to me that if a person deliberately seeks out a full cut shirt and it appears baggy, then that person is wearing a shirt that's too large. I thought one of the hallmarks of a well-dressed person was wearing clothes that fit properly.
> 
> However, if you enjoy wearing shirts that appear baggy, so be it. It's just not my particular taste.


This is where much of the forum may disagree with us. For me, it's partly because a lot of fabric bunching up under my jacket and around my trouser waistband is not as comfortable as having just enough to move around. With light weight sport coats like madras, full cut shirts tend to create unsightly bulges around the midsection unless you're constantly readjusting to pull all of it to the back.


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## IvanD (Jan 5, 2012)

One of my favourites is one that has not been mentioned here yet. Gant.
Yes, they are not the cheapest, but all of the ones I have are good quality, fit well and I think look good too.


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## Dr. D (Nov 19, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Does it? Because someone once compared a modern BB Traditional Fit OCBD with a BB Makers OCBD, both the same size. The vintage one was definitely less voluminous, more akin to a modern BB Regular Fit, possibly even Slim Fit.


Do you have a link to this comparison? Because when I read this my immediate reaction was, "there is absolutely no way that is true."

So I did an experiment to check. I laid out one of my old OCBDs (late 80's Makers, in unistripe) and put a 2 year old slim fit OCBD (in solid blue) on top. Both shirts are size 16-3, and both have been laundered in a similar fashion, albeit the vintage one many more times. While the sleeves are virtually identical, there is a notable 1.5-2" difference in the chest as seen at each armpit. Of course this is 1.5-2" on both the front and back and left and right sides of the shirt so this corresponds to a 6-8" total difference in chest size between the vintage OCBD and today's slim fit. And if you take a measuring tape and check the chest all around, I get 45" on the slim fit and 52" on the vintage.





While I appreciate today's slim fit option, I greatly prefer the older BB shirts despite the extra fabric. I simply pull the shirt tight across the back and then fold the extra material towards my back along each side seam when I tuck it in. It does not look ridiculous at all and if you are wearing a sweater or jacket it is completely invisible. Meanwhile, the most visible element of the shirt, the collar, stands out with its superior roll.


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## leisureclass (Jan 31, 2011)

You make a good point Dr. D. 

I think the best match between current BB fits and the classic ones we all love is between the current 'regular fit' and vintage options.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Dr. D Gets it. 

Sometimes it's not all about the fit - its how you wear it as well. 

Heavy Tweed Jacket compared apples to apples. He compared a modern traditional fit OCBD to a vintage Makers OCBD traditional fit. Not too much difference.


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## Kreiger (Nov 6, 2011)

But still, a mercer is going to be a few inches larger than the regular fit. I think Gamma is right saying that it's all about fit. Given the same cloth/collar/cuffs/cut/construction, the shirt that fits better is the better shirt. It could be argued that the shirt that fits better is simply universally better (but that is despite the point). Saying that one can military-tuck does not 'excuse' a shirt that doesn't fit; surely it would be preferable to have a shirt that doesn't require a special tuck to be wearable. Mercer claims that having the extra fabric is 'good taste.' I would counter, saying that a well-fitting shirt is 'better taste.'


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## Spin Evans (Feb 2, 2013)

Kreiger said:


> But still, a mercer is going to be a few inches larger than the regular fit. I think Gamma is right saying that it's all about fit. Given the same cloth/collar/cuffs/cut/construction, the shirt that fits better is the better shirt. It could be argued that the shirt that fits better is simply universally better (but that is despite the point). Saying that one can military-tuck does not 'excuse' a **** that doesn't fit; surely it would be preferable to have a shirt that doesn't require a special tuck to be wearable. Mercer claims that having the extra fabric is 'good taste.' I would counter, saying that a well-fitting shirt is 'better taste.'


Let's not start asserting which is better. What works better for one person may not work for another.


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## Kreiger (Nov 6, 2011)

I would agree- different fits for different folks! That means a slim-fit shirt may be what one needs. I didn't intent to imply that those who are best suited by a full cut should avoid it.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

blue suede shoes said:


> Originally Posted by *gamma68*
> Why have manufacturers downgraded construction quality over the past couple decades, do you suppose? Is it simply a strategy for further maximizing profit margin? Or would it be too expensive today to construct the same shirt from the late 1980s?
> 
> The shirts that have kept pretty much kept their quality, Bill's, BB, Gitman, and Mercer are all made in the US. The ones that everyone is complaining about because of shorter collars, Land's End, PRL, LL Bean are all made overseas. Just another example of how clothing and shoe companies cut corners after they take their production overseas.


I don't think shorter collars are corner-cutting so much as chasing mass-market fashion. LLB and LE shirts are still fairly good quality for the money.


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## mfs (Mar 1, 2009)

I have had wonderful experience with Bills Khakis OCBD's. Very heavy oxford cloth and made in the USA, which is a requirement of mine. I see the men's store Wingtip in San Francisco is now selling its own heavy OCBD. That I will try next.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Dr. D, I don't have a link on hand, but I remember the findings. AAAC search is of course completely useless.


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## Ale House (Apr 27, 2007)

Anyone have experience with Proper Cloth OCBD's? They have a pink university stripe I have my eye on.


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## jeffsols (Dec 7, 2010)

chiming in late here, a bit. i've worn hard a half-dozen gitmans and they are good shirts. collars are lined/fused as are cuffs--and in my size (17-36 Tall) the colors are terribly limited (blue, pink, white, yellow). But via STP and scouring ebay there are some to be had and of the last lot, I haven't paid more than $50 bucks for any of them. the size limits it for me--unfortunately. the cost of mtm is too great and so i spend elsewhere (shoes, pants, sweaters). I'd love to wear mercers but it's extra for tall, plus i think they'd be too big in body even for me. Haven't tried ratio but plan to.

I also wear a ton of H&K off the rack 17-36s (or 17 stocks with sleves lenghtened) and they wear well. don't own any BD collars but their standard point collar stands up perfectly under a crewneck sweater and is my first choice.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Funny, how folks who don't even own a Mercer now think they are too big as a result of the skinny iGent. Mercer's MTM, so they take instruction.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I assume you're referring to me as "the skinny iGent" so... I'm sorry? But they are made to order, not made to measure. An important difference. They also charge higher prices to get a smaller fit, a bit of a downside to me.


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## RT-Bone (Nov 12, 2013)

Seems to me that the "best" OCBD is the one that best fits the individual and is enjoyed the most by that person. 

For me, I own mostly BB extra slim fit, because that is what works best for my body type. I absolutely love them, and they'll remain my "go to" until they're not. 

I have tried Lands' End tailored fit - don't love the billowy sleeves. 

I have a Rugby - it was fine, and I probably would have purchased more on sale had they stayed open. 

I have a Uniqlo because I was curious given some things I had heard, and I also wanted to try out a pink OCBD without buying in too hard at first. Like all things from Uniqlo, it's fantastic...for the price.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Ale House said:


> Anyone have experience with Proper Cloth OCBD's? They have a pink university stripe I have my eye on.


I have one. I have no plans of another. The fusing is as stiff as can be, they have the crummy little collars, and they do that twee little thing at the side of the hem that covers shoddiness and adds bulk.

Also, scroll down here to see someone else that provides photographic evidence of their decline upon moving to Malaysian manufacture.
.



Eric W S said:


> Funny, how folks who don't even own a Mercer now think they are too big as a result of the skinny iGent. Mercer's MTM, so they take instruction.


For God's sake, they more than boast about the obscene volume of room in their shirts. Even stout members admit their is gobs of extra fabric. They can graft a smaller body, but that's a few inches at best when the surplus fabric issue is much greater.


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

Skinny iGent? Ugh, is this going to be a thing now?


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## Ale House (Apr 27, 2007)

Tempest said:


> I have one. I have no plans of another. The fusing is as stiff as can be, they have the crummy little collars, and they do that twee little thing at the side of the hem that covers shoddiness and adds bulk.
> 
> Also, scroll down here to see someone else that provides photographic evidence of their decline upon moving to Malaysian manufacture.
> .


Thank you. I won't bother wasting the $65 then.


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

Tons of great info in this thread, thanks guys!

Bought a couple Kamakura and ordered a Ratio because of this and some other threads.


Side note, am I the only one who likes OCBDs themselves but hates them with ties?!?!


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## mayostard (Mar 10, 2013)

The Ratio extra long option has me interested. For those that have ordered from Ratio, do you guys put in (e.g.) your jacket size for the chest or the size you want the shirt to actually measure (i.e. pit-to-pit, doubled?)?

thnx


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

tigerpac said:


> Side note, am I the only one who likes OCBDs themselves but hates them with ties?!?!


I think it depends on the OCBD. The BB OCBD is sublime with a tie in my opinion...just the perfect collar for a four-in-hand knot. On the other hand, and this may be heresy, I'm not too fond of the M&S OCBD with a tie. If there is such a thing as too much collar roll, I think the M&S collar with a tie is Exhibit 1...especially under a jacket...just too much going on up there.


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm also very anti-four-in-hand knot so that might have something to do with it.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

mayostard: Order your jacket size. The idea is that you get a fit closer to your preferences. That said, you can also fine tweak the default measurements if you want or submit measurements of a well fitting shirt by email.

tigerpac: Yes, you are the only one.  Half-Windsors and Windsors look awful with button down collars. You need a collar with the proper amount of roll for a tie anyway. The short, no roll collars are okay for casual wear but not so great with ties. Did you order the "secret" button-down collar from Ratio?


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

Nah, actually now that I'm looking I went with the semi-spread collar as a first for them - sorta the fastball down the middle to see what they had. But, secret button-down will be the next one I go for!

Kamakura I did go button-down and thought it was a nice length.


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## ArtVandalay (Apr 29, 2010)

tigerpac said:


> Side note, am I the only one who likes OCBDs themselves but hates them with ties?!?!


I love the look of a four-in-hand with a great collar roll. Unfortunately, I've never had much luck achieving anything even resembling a collar roll.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Another vote for Mercer. I know some men complain that Mercer's are too generously cut, but in fact, when I measured the chest diameter (armpit to armpit) some of my older RL OCBDs, the Mercers were actually a bit slimmer. and they were not much larger than the LE Hyde Parks in my size.


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## van_veen (Apr 15, 2013)

*long roll button down collar from Ratio Clothing*



Jovan said:


> mayostard: Order your jacket size. The idea is that you get a fit closer to your preferences. That said, you can also fine tweak the default measurements if you want or submit measurements of a well fitting shirt by email.
> 
> tigerpac: Yes, you are the only one.  Half-Windsors and Windsors look awful with button down collars. You need a collar with the proper amount of roll for a tie anyway. The short, no roll collars are okay for casual wear but not so great with ties. Did you order the "secret" button-down collar from Ratio?


Firstly i have to say thanks to Jovan here for bringing these guys to my attention.

I have just ordered 2 shirts from them.(Ratio Clothing)

Both unlined with the unlined long roll button down collar.

Eric seems a great guy and very on point with customer service....which is excellent so far.

He told me they have now 2 point sizes which are either 3" or 3.5"

Hope this helps.

cheers,

V.V.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks, I'm definitely trying to spread the word about them. They are an excellent value for the price point, amount of customizations, and being made in the USA. I don't know if they're still doing the Facebook coupon or not, I'll ask Eric if there are any discounts for first time customers.

You are correct, the default BD is 3" with very little roll and the long roll BD is 3.5". The latter is definitely better for wearing with ties.


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## sjk (Dec 1, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> Another vote for Mercer. I know some men complain that Mercer's are too generously cut, but in fact, when I measured the chest diameter (armpit to armpit) some of my older RL OCBDs, the Mercers were actually a bit slimmer. and they were not much larger than the LE Hyde Parks in my size.


I think David Mercer sometimes does himself a little disservice by overemphasizing the fullness of the Mercer cut. I totally agree- if you want to talk "tent" or "sail," go try some of the older RLs.


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## mattl (Jan 26, 2014)

I would even like to see BB offer a slimmer option than ESF. Haven't tried black fleece to see how it's cut yet though.


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## Enrique Shockwave (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm kind of a slimmer guy, but I have a lot of trouble finding shirts that fit well. I have a 15.5" neck, 38" chest, and a 28" waist. Anyone able to find an OCBD that fits well with that? Or do I just have to go the MTM route?


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

tigerpac said:


> I'm also very anti-four-in-hand knot so that might have something to do with it.


You will find a few folks in these trad environs who don't fancy their OCBDs with ties, but just a few; you will likely find none who are anti-four-in-hand knot. The four-in-hand is a trad staple. Trads generally prefer modest knots, and windsors and even half-windsors are more likely to produce the ugly fat euro-tie look.


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

But four-in-hands are so asymmetrical! Skinny guys wearing a loose four-in-hand in casual settings can look good to my eye but I see too many crooked ties in court and it just doesn't seem formal enough. 

I agree windsors and half windsors look funny with OCBDs as well, so I guess I'm fully anti-tie with OCBDs.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

tigerpac said:


> But four-in-hands are so asymmetrical! Skinny guys wearing a loose four-in-hand in casual settings can look good to my eye but I see too many crooked ties in court and it just doesn't seem formal enough.
> 
> I agree windsors and half windsors look funny with OCBDs as well, so I guess I'm fully anti-tie with OCBDs.


Like wrinkles on seersucker and linen, the asymmetrical nature of the four-in-hand is part of its charm. It should be embraced. Part of the trad canon is to avoid overly fussiness. That said, there is a difference between avoiding fussiness and just plain sloppiness. Ties not worn to the neck are the latter, skinny guy or fat guy.


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

Right - I can see that, but some situations it works and others it doesn't is my point.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

Jovan said:


> I assume you're referring to me as "the skinny iGent" so... I'm sorry? But they are made to order, not made to measure. An important difference. They also charge higher prices to get a smaller fit, a bit of a downside to me.


Nope. Your not an iGent. I am referring to the ultra skinny set you actually referenced. You tailor your clothes to your body properly IMO. Pardon the confusion.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

sjk said:


> I think David Mercer sometimes does himself a little disservice by overemphasizing the fullness of the Mercer cut. I totally agree- if you want to talk "tent" or "sail," go try some of the older RLs.


For every man complaining of shirts too big, there are probably several more with the opposite complaint.


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## Spin Evans (Feb 2, 2013)

Enrique Shockwave said:


> I'm kind of a slimmer guy, but I have a lot of trouble finding shirts that fit well. I have a 15.5" neck, 38" chest, and a 28" waist. Anyone able to find an OCBD that fits well with that? Or do I just have to go the MTM route?


I have the same measurements, and I would discourage MTM. Your money is better spent elsewhere right now. RL has their custom fit, which should work well. XS RL Rugby shirts can be had via eBay for fairly cheap. Brooks now has their Red Fleece line, which has two or three sober offerings each season that you can get in XS.

Neck sizes here can be a bit tight, but for sport shirts one usually leaves the top button undone anyways. If you want a shirt to wear a tie with, I find their ESF Made in America oxfords to work beautifully. It's slim/neat while also being comfortable. 15.5" may be a touch fuller in the chest than you feel comfortable with, but they do shrink down a bit. Moreover, you will eventually gain thirty pounds for the first time in your life (not that I speak from experience...).


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## Enrique Shockwave (Jan 17, 2014)

Oh, I gained it alright. Then I lost 40. Problem with XS that I have found is they don't fit around the arms. I usually wear smalls, and the chest is fine. As long as I don't button the neck I'm ok, but I do want to wear ties.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

I think I need to post a couple photos of my tie knot worn with an OCBD. It's not a 4-in-hand, nor is it a half- or full windsor. Not asymmetric; learned to tie it as a kid.


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## van_veen (Apr 15, 2013)

Jovan said:


> Thanks, I'm definitely trying to spread the word about them. They are an excellent value for the price point, amount of customizations, and being made in the USA. I don't know if they're still doing the Facebook coupon or not, I'll ask Eric if there are any discounts for first time customers.
> 
> You are correct, the default BD is 3" with very little roll and the long roll BD is 3.5". The latter is definitely better for wearing with ties.


There is a coupon code for first time customers right now. I think it is for a limited time but not sure of the end date.
It is for $20.00 off your first order.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Enrique Shockwave said:


> I'm kind of a slimmer guy, but I have a lot of trouble finding shirts that fit well. I have a 15.5" neck, 38" chest, and a 28" waist. Anyone able to find an OCBD that fits well with that? Or do I just have to go the MTM route?


There's Brooks Brothers Extra Slim. May have to go the MTM route otherwise, but unfortunately the shipping from someone like Ratio Clothing would be a bit much. I don't know of too many shirtmakers from around there that get the collar roll right on a button-down and aren't a bit prohibitive in cost for the average guy.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

tigerpac said:


> I agree windsors and half windsors look funny with OCBDs...


Agree. If one ever contemplates wearing a Windsor knot with an OCBD (or any buttondown collar), he should sit down and think happy thoughts. Once his head is clear, he should be in the right frame of mind to re-evaluate this decision.


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## jeffsols (Dec 7, 2010)

apologies for the aside on mercer size, it detracted from my real point which was cost. don't own one so i can't say knowledgeably. i aspire to them; just can't afford them at this point.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Gentlemen,

I hope you men are cool with me bumping this thread.

I read through it briefly.

Several days ago I placed an order for 2 LL Bean OCBD and 2 Chambray's.

Can any of you comment on the overall quality of LLB OCBD?

Thanks!


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Watchman said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I hope you men are cool with me bumping this thread.
> 
> ...


I'm a big fan of LLB's OCBD. They are heavy duty and last a long time. Some milquetoasts here have complained of them being too stiff and scratchy, but I can't say that I've noticed that. What makes them wear like iron is their non-iron treatment; now, if someone dislikes that in principle, I can understand. It can make them hot as well (less breathability). You should be fine in southern Wisconsin in them for at least six months of the year.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

^^^Thank You Sir.

I looked at all the usual suspects mentioned in this thread. BB are made oversees now.

And I did not want to spend $110 per shirt from Mercer.

J Press was even a little more expensive. 

I ended up getting the LLB OCBD for $35 a piece.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Watchman said:


> ^^^Thank You Sir.
> 
> I looked at all the usual suspects mentioned in this thread. BB are made oversees now.
> 
> ...


I think that BB OCBDs are still made in NC. But, even on the few-times-a-year- threefer sale, they're still $60ish.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Overall, in my opinion, Brooks is still the best deal.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

I own three of the non-iron OCBDs from LL Bean. 

Pros:

The shirts are very well made. The stitching, even around the buttonholes, is excellent. The buttons have a pleasing feel and are sewn on tight. The fabric, as Pentheos stated, is beefy and thick. The cut is full. 

What could be cons, but maybe will not be to you:

I wish the collar points were a tiny bit longer--but that's just me and is certainly not a deal-breaker. And as Pentheos further stated, the shirts' non-iron treatment reduces their ability to breathe. What that means to me is that I will not wear them if I am walking around outdoors when the temperature is 55 degrees F or above. Because I lead a far from sedentary life and the weather here is usually in the high fifties to mid-sixties, the shirts spend a lot of time on the bench. They are acceptable on those rare moments when I am sitting still indoors. (When I am at the movies, for instance, and have been too lazy to iron a shirt.) The shirts should be fine for someone who will be sitting in an air-conditioned office all day and/or who will be moving around outdoors on a cold day. I have a hunch that you see more nippy days than I do.

And Patrick has observed something about these shirts, which I have noticed as well: the back of the collar is a magnet for neck oils. When you take one of these shirts off at the end of the day, you may notice a distinct ring around the collar--darker and more defined than the ring you ordinarily find on must-iron shirts. However, I have found that the ring easily washes out if, before laundering, you spray on a pre-treatment such as Shout or Zout or Oxy Clean stain remover or whatever.

Conclusion:

LL Bean certainly did not skimp on the fabric or the tailoring. As long as you like seriously sturdy fabric and don't wear the shirts outside for more than 15 minutes on a warm day, I think you'll be satisfied with them. But buy some Zout. You'll probably need it.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

Duvel said:


> Overall, in my opinion, Brooks is still the best deal.


Agreed.


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

Duvel said:


> Overall, in my opinion, Brooks is still the best deal.





Charles Dana said:


> Agreed.


Agree here as well.... WHEN on sale.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Pentheos said:


> I think that BB OCBDs are still made in NC. But, even on the few-times-a-year- threefer sale, they're still $60ish.


Good grief man....if I would have known that BB OCBD were made in USA I would have bought them instead...:icon_pale:


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Watchman said:


> Good grief man....if I would have known that BB OCBD were made in USA I would have bought them instead...:icon_pale:


Well, LLB has a great return policy. But, I like to keep some LLB OCBDs on-hand for when I am too lazy to iron, and my BB OCBDs are crumpled up. Why not have both?


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## adoucett (Nov 16, 2012)

If you can figure out your size, the Brooks Brothers black fleece OCBD are really nice.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Duvel said:


> Overall, in my opinion, Brooks is still the best deal.


Don't forget J Press OCBD with their signature flap pocket. Gitman Bros used to make them too if you can still find one.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

Pentheos said:


> I think that BB OCBDs are still made in NC. But, even on the few-times-a-year- threefer sale, they're still $60ish.


For the benefit of Watchman-----the BB must-iron OCBDs are indeed made in North Carolina. (Not their other shirts, though--those are made in Malaysia and China.)


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

Contrary to what I said earlier in this thread over a year ago, all my OCBDs are now Brooks extra slim fit, and for my money, they can't be beat in quality or fit. Per LLB though, as I said over a year ago, my dad has worn LLB OCBDs for years and they've worn like iron. The primary thing keeping me from buying LLB is the fit- I hate non iron, but I could live with it if the fit were better


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## watchnerd (Mar 18, 2015)

For a retro roll collar, like 1950s-1960s Brooks Brothers, I've been quite pleased with the Soft Ivy BD collar from Proper Cloth when paired with their various Oxford cloth choices.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Charles Dana said:


> For the benefit of Watchman-----the BB must-iron OCBDs are indeed made in North Carolina. (Not their other shirts, though--those are made in Malaysia and China.)


Yes Sir. Thank you.

I have several BB mainline Dress shirts, not 346, and while they are great shirts, they are indeed made in Malaysia.

I assumed that the OCBD are made there as well....glad to know I was wrong though.

If indeed they are made in NC then that would technically make them one of the best deals, if not THE best deal on USA made shirts around when you consider the discounts.

Maybe if I didn't spend all my lunch money on shell cordovan Alden's I would not cry so much about spending good $$$ on dress shirts...:fool:


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Just fyi, "Per" means "according to". I THINK - and I apologize if I'm wrong - the way I've seen you use it a number of times, you are looking for "Re", as in "regarding" or "in reference to". Feel free to tell me to mind my own business...just have seen it a few times and thought I'd offer a helpful tip.


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

orange fury said:


> Contrary to what I said earlier in this thread over a year ago, all my OCBDs are now Brooks extra slim fit, and for my money, they can't be beat in quality or fit. Per LLB though, as I said over a year ago, my dad has worn LLB OCBDs for years and they've worn like iron. The primary thing keeping me from buying LLB is the fit- I hate non iron, but I could live with it if the fit were better


I think the ones I bought were the; "Slightly Fitted" versions...


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

Watchman said:


> I think the ones I bought were the; "Slightly Fitted" versions...


In the world of LL Bean, "slightly fitted" is a relative term: it simply means "not as voluminous around the waist as our 'regular fit' shirts." A shirt that is "slightly fitted" is still kind of full cut. Not slim fitting by any means.


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## StylePurgatory (Jun 3, 2013)

In wearing a Nautica I've right now that I love. I thrifted it, so I've got no idea if the still make them this way, but the fit is great on me, and I really like the shape of the collar points.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Don't let binder clips on mannequins paralyze you. A little extra fabric is OK.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Where did that remark come from?


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

StylePurgatory said:


> In wearing a Nautica I've right now that I love. I thrifted it, so I've got no idea if the still make them this way, but the fit is great on me, and I really like the shape of the collar points.


I have gotten a couple of Nautica pinpoints as well. I got them primarily because they fit a niche, but they feel nice, fit me well, and seem to wear well. They don't get a ton of use, but I always take a look at them when I see them on the rack.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

vpkozel said:


> I have gotten a couple of Nautica pinpoints as well. I got them primarily because they fit a niche, but they feel nice, fit me well, and seem to wear well. They don't get a ton of use, but I always take a look at them when I see them on the rack.


Hey, @vpkozel, are the collars decently sized? This is a good tip, as I walk past a Nautica display every time I'm in the nearby Macy's.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

SlideGuitarist said:


> Hey, @vpkozel, are the collars decently sized? This is a good tip, as I walk past a Nautica display every time I'm in the nearby Macy's.


I just measured the point collar that I have. It is 3 1/4".

For reference, my BB point was 3", my Spier & MacKay buttondown was 3", and my CT semi spread was 2.75"

The arm length on the Nautica is split (32/33, 34/35, etc.) if that makes a big difference to you.

If you do get one, make sure there is not a logo if that is something you don't want.


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## Suit of Nettles (Mar 18, 2015)

Duvel said:


> Overall, in my opinion, Brooks is still the best deal.


As 3-packs with the 30% corporate, definite concurrence.

My sole issue with BB is the colours: the solid blue is a little 'custodial', the pink is weak, and the lack of anything but blue and red university stripes is sad. There's a decent lavender oxford cloth available through the custom program, but that those prices, Luxire would be a way better deal.

I'm just kicking myself for not grabbing some linen BD's on the corporate day.


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

Suit of Nettles said:


> I'm just kicking myself for not grabbing some linen BD's on the corporate day.


I regret the same. Any idea if the linen shirts were included in the 3 for $229 (or whatever the price is ) deal (plus of course the extra 30% off)?


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

Took delivery of 2 LLB Chambrays and 2 OCBD's and they are of staggering quality.

Especially the OCBD.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

Watchman said:


> Took delivery of 2 LLB Chambrays and 2 OCBD's and they are of staggering quality.
> 
> Especially the OCBD.


Yeah, they are nice.


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## Suit of Nettles (Mar 18, 2015)

Spex said:


> I regret the same. Any idea if the linen shirts were included in the 3 for $229 (or whatever the price is ) deal (plus of course the extra 30% off)?


Yup: 30% on top of the 3-for deal, at least when I checked.

We Toronto boys were slow on the draw that day, I guess.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

O'Connell's has quite the collection of button-downs in both oxford and pinpoint:

https://www.oconnellsclothing.com/home.php?cat=270

Andover Shop also has a few selections not typically found at Brooks. I like the Ocean blue w/white stripe:

https://theandovershop.com/index.ph...th=1_8&zenid=d16b8eee619d85798d91eb78efa18a4e


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Took delivery of my 3-for plus 30-percent Brooks oxfords, in yellow, blue, and blue university stripe, all in traditional fit. I'm trying the traditional fit as kind of an experiment, as I'm usually a regular fit guy. I am liking the generous fit; it is very comfortable.


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## toddorbertBU (Apr 28, 2013)

Duvel said:


> Took delivery of my 3-for plus 30-percent Brooks oxfords, in yellow, blue, and blue university stripe, all in traditional fit. I'm trying the traditional fit as kind of an experiment, as I'm usually a regular fit guy. I am liking the generous fit; it is very comfortable.


Like Duvel I just got my 3 w/ 30% off BB OCBDs yesterday. If you had asked me before I tried the fist one on, I would've said Brooks has the best value OCBDs when on sale. But wearing my new shirt today, I'm thinking of returning it as I'm not seeing much of a collar roll. The shirts just looks different from all my previously purchased BBOCBDs. Unfortunately I already took off all the tags before noticing.

Not to highjack the thread but am I right in saying this shirt doesn't have much of a roll?

Or am I just nuts?


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## Untilted (Mar 30, 2006)

That roll is ok, bro. Not a big roll but definitely there.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

I have not much data to back this up, only a little experience. Emphasis on a little. But, it does seem to me that collar size relative to one's neck size has something to do with the roll. toddorbertBU, from what I can see there, your collar might be just slightly bigger, relatively speaking, than what I wear. Your collar closes comletely; my collar has about a 3/8 to 1/2 inch gap. I have a couple of shirts from other companies where there is less gap and I get less roll. 

Sometimes these shirts shrink, especially if you're not gentle with them like I am. 

Just fyi, when I asked BB customer service about what collar size I should buy, they told me that they usually recommend that their customers go to the smaller size if they are between sizes, e.g., I have about a 16.75" neck, and so, with Brooks, instead of a 17-inch collar, I go with 16.5.

I also think that the fit has something to do with it, i.e., I get a bigger roll with my traditional fit than I do with my regular fit. I can't prove that this really has anything to do with it, though.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

toddorbertBU - Would you mind measuring it? I agree that the roll could be improved. It looks similar to my 3" collared LE HPs. Could be other factors at play.


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## my19 (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes, what OCBD said. The collar looks shorter than my BBs, more like my LE Hyde Parks, which provide a bit of roll but not quite the BB roll.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

oxford, you have a great post on your blog about the elusive collar roll. Billax, as well, offers great advice. 

My own BB ocbds measure right at 3.25". I wouldn't mind seeing them longer. Again, I'm hardly the expert, but I do see a difference when I take the time to iron the collars carefully--meaning that I iron them so that they crease right along the seam and so that the fabric at the points is ironed flat and wrinkle-free. It seems a small thing but one that might make a difference.

I also notice a difference depending on how I knot my tie--many factors there, including tightness around the collar (I find that a middle ground is best) and thickness of the knot (bigger seems to produce the bigger roll). 

All of this just my two cents, of course.

To toddorbertBU, to satisfy my curiosity, and maybe to throw some light on this, what "fit" are you wearing?


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## LeeLo (May 22, 2014)

toddorbertBU said:


> Like Duvel I just got my 3 w/ 30% off BB OCBDs yesterday. If you had asked me before I tried the fist one on, I would've said Brooks has the best value OCBDs when on sale. But wearing my new shirt today, I'm thinking of returning it as I'm not seeing much of a collar roll. The shirts just looks different from all my previously purchased BBOCBDs. Unfortunately I already took off all the tags before noticing.


The roll will get better over time as the shirts are pretty stiff right out of the box. I find that I have to mess with the collar myself - it doesn't magically appear on its own. If you push the collar down flat by the buttons it will force the collar to bunch up and roll by the neck-band.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Good point, LeeLo. I do that myself--pull the collar points so that the button is at the top, not the bottom, of the buttonhole. It does make some difference.


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## toddorbertBU (Apr 28, 2013)

In response to your question Duvel, the shirt is a Regular fit (I refuse to refer to it as a 'Madison' fit). 
OCBD,, having read your blog about collar roll, and others' posts about the LE Hyde Park shirts, my fear was that BB had shortened the collars. But I measured and they came out right at 3.25". 
I think the issue may be that it hasn't shrunk as much as my old OCBDs and the looser collar is affecting the roll. I guess I will wash it and see if the slight shrinking of the collar makes the roll more pronounced.


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## oxford cloth button down (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks toddrorbertBU. 3.25" is right where it should be. I was getting worried that I missed the bus. I hope your roll sorts itself out


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## Ensiferous (Mar 5, 2012)

I have noticed that, in general, and with all other factors like point length being equal, a BD collar that is a closer fit will tend to have a collar roll shape that is more of a dome. The band gets pulled up higher and more vertically, affecting the roll.

If the collar is a bit less of a close fit, it will tend to have a collar roll shape that is more of a bell. The band is a bit more able itself to roll over just a bit, slightly changing the roll shape and allowing an easier ogee curve. Not talking a loose, incorrect fit here, just not too snug.

Other things beyond the shirt itself come into play too, like a guy's individual neck shape.

^Just my weird theory/observations. YMMV.


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## MythReindeer (Jul 3, 2013)

When I iron my shirts, I don't fold over the collar at all--they are pressed when "flipped" to be flat and that's it. I even put them on the hanger with the collar flipped up. The collar is only turned down when I am about to don the shirt. Maybe it doesn't do anything--I rarely wear a tie--but maybe it will help.


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

The more brands and shirts I try, the more I like Mercer.


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## Eric W S (Jun 6, 2012)

tigerpac said:


> The more brands and shirts I try, the more I like Mercer.


Exactly. I have narroved it down considerably. Mercer, O'Connell's, Andover, and Ben Silver. I prefer Mercer first and foremost though.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

How I roll in my new yellow Brooks ocbd. I see now that the tie could be cinched up a bit.










Interesting about this color. Indoors, it looks almost gold. Outdoors, it washes into a buttery yellow. I'm enjoying it!


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## Watchman (Jun 11, 2013)

tigerpac said:


> The more brands and shirts I try, the more I like Mercer.


I am gonna have to try em.

They seemed to be excellently constructed from what I saw on the site.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

My tie choice, of course, points to the need for more range in my tie collection. I have medallion ties in brown, but they seem almost too brown for the shirt. When I go for something with a little pop, the colors don't quite "go with" the shirt. I chose this Ferrell Reed because the small stripe is "almost" yellow. Then again, I kind of enjoy having the colors be a little off--gives it some edge, perhaps.

I have other regimentals that might work--mainly blue and red with a khaki-yellow stripe thrown in.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Mercer is difficult to top. As a rule I can't justify $125.- for a basic shirt. I'm sure that their clientele is steady enough that there's no need for them to ever discount. It's not like I'm holding out, they don't need me as a customer.



tigerpac said:


> The more brands and shirts I try, the more I like Mercer.


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## gdknight64 (Aug 13, 2014)

I just wanted to say thanks to all for this run-down of the OCBD options. I am looking to replace some worn OCBD slim-fit shirts, and will try RL , LLB, , and Kamakura as well as any others suggested here.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, and for mentioning it so late, but have you read the OCBD series in Put This On? A lot of good information. https://putthison.com/tagged/The-Oxford-Cloth-Button-Down-Shirt-Series


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## mankson (Sep 27, 2012)

Duvel said:


> Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, and for mentioning it so late, but have you read the OCBD series in Put This On? A lot of good information. https://putthison.com/tagged/The-Oxford-Cloth-Button-Down-Shirt-Series


Interesting link, thanks.


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