# Buy USA owned and made.



## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I feel sure Tom will "chime in" with an "Amen" (he's a good Catholic, I think) as I confess that, as I look at my wardrobe, the clothing to which I return repeatedly is USA owned and made.

We hear a lot these days about how USA owned and made goods "aren't what they used to be." Well, it's easy to respond to that by remembering and naming the excellent USA owned businesses that continue to rely upon excellent American management and labor.

I'll name a few: Bill's Khakis, Mercer & Sons, Gitman Bros., H. Freeman, Hickey Freeman, Oxxford, Alden, Col. Littleton.

I know there are many, many more. This is just a beginning to a long list. While some of the USA owned and made goods may be a tad more expensive, I remain convinced that the businesses I've listed make a better, longer lasting product than businesses that are not USA owned and made. If the choice is two Lands End OCBDs or one Mercer, I'll take the one Mercer.

At the risk of sounding like Lou Dobbs, I'm plugging USA owned and made goods again. They deserve at least three cheers.

Buy American.

Harris


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

*Thank you*

Harris,
Thanks. I think a comprehensive list would be very useful. If we could compile a list of everything from hats to shoes with everything inbetween it would make life a bit easier. It's funny, I used to want only well made at a good price. Now I still want that, but if I can find US made goods that fulfill this, I will pass up some cheaper items. I don't buy that much, but I don't think integrity is measured in volume but consistency.


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## Towner (Jun 23, 2006)

Harris,

I'll give you an Amen for sure (I'm Episcopalian) and, by the way, am missing church this morning as I sit here reading the Trad Forum. I too have found that the vast majority of my "vestments" are made in the USA. I noticed that I have two sack poplin suits from Brooks that are not made in the USA. I was slightly shocked by that discovery. I spoke with Ethan at O'Connells and, thanks to your posting a few weeks ago, purchased three Troy OCBD. I'm looking forward to their arrival. I also purchased the tartan green blazer. Ethan assured me that all of the articles were "made in the USA". There is truly something to be said for that. As an aside, I've been a Volvo and Benz owner for years. I ordered a new Ford F-150 Lariat a few weeks ago. From now on, I will adhere strictly to the 'made in the USA' label. 

Best Regards,

Towner


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## CWJ (Mar 22, 2006)

Maybe this link will work. I found it looking for the Allen-Edmonds outlet address in WI.



Just think, you can get a good pair of shoes, a Harley and a high-end Trek bike all in one simple trip to Wisconsin.


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## A.Squire (Apr 5, 2006)

I can envision the day we go to war with China, our troops being the best dressed troops in history---Bills khakis held up with the Colonel’s belts, Bill Mercer’s shirtings, and Russell boots----either that or fight with nothing on ‘cept your M16.

Harris preaching the razor sharp gospel, cutting me like a knife. I was ready to come forward and repent, ‘till Towner started stepping on my toes about driving domestic. Why—what would the neighbors think? (wink)


Towner, if I’m not mistaken Ford owns Volvo or at least some share of the Prestige Auto Group, I think it is. I will not comment on the current state of Volvo, save to say I own a newer SUV---and wasn’t the old 240 a class act?


Allen


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## Thornhill (May 14, 2006)

Allen said:


> Towner, if I'm not mistaken Ford owns Volvo or at least some share of the Prestige Auto Group, I think it is. I will not comment on the current state of Volvo, save to say I own a newer SUV---and wasn't the old 240 a class act?
> 
> Allen


Ford owns Aston Martin, Jaguar, and Land Rover, too, if I'm not mistaken.


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## ziggy (Jun 5, 2006)

Check out . Limited selection of products but may give you some brand ideas.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks for starting this thread! I am finding it quite entertaining and hope it grows into multiple pages 

Can I ask however, would an H-F made in Canada still fill the bill for you chaps? Further, the raw material for H-F, comes from other countries, i.e. Italian wools. Why not US wools? Or an Orvis Harris Tweed....since the tweed obviously comes from Scotland...are these exempt? How about using Mr. Kabbaz? It seems most of his shirtings are made by "furriners" so would his US owned business be verboten? Merely curious.

Warmest regards


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## a.dickens (May 10, 2006)

While not the shoes are really "trad" buying American products is, and New Balance fits the bill as American Made. I buy only New Balance athletic shoes and have done so for quite a few years now. I believe not ALL the shoes are made in the USA, but many are and some of the ones that are are labled as such.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gentlemen,

Why not buy the best value and quality? If an American manufacturer makes a superior product that offers you value and quality then by all means buy it. But if not, then why subsidize mediocrity? Unless you want to take a political stand (for instance refusing to buy goods from a dictatorship) then I don't understand the plea to buy American. I think the only time the Buy American refrain should be adhered to is in defense procurement. I don't mind if my khakis come from China (though I should, but probably not for the same reason people cry Buy American!) but I would mind if our F-22s did.

Karl


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Great thread! I would guess that at least 65 to 70% of the current contents of my closet are American made, until we factor in the original source of the raw materials. However, the source of the raw materials for a product that is made in America, does not change the fact that said product was indeed made in America. It simply reflects the nature of a Global economy. I to want to thank "Harris" for reminding us to incorporate our sense of patriotism in to our consumer choices. 

My contribution to the list of American manufacturers doesn't make a product that would fit into most of our closets but, it is ALL American! There are few things that can match the thrill of straddling 600, plus pounds of barely controlled, runaway American iron. Harley Davidson Motorcycles are as American as it gets!

Regarding the "All American" Ford F-150, Ford states in their own literature, "final assembly may contain parts of foreign manufacture." I have two Fords and a Chevy sitting in my driveway. They all contain parts that were made in other countrys. Damn, just can't get away from that global economy!


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

ROFL Last week I drove the company Izuzu bobcat truck to one of our furniture makers. They proudly stick 'MADE IN AMERICA' stickers on the product. I had to wait an hour though. The 100% latino workforce, largely unable to speak english was sitting around the chinese made TEEVEE watching the futball. The meat packing industry traded american labour @ $11 an hour for a latino one @ $9. The building industry likewise is all latino.


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## tripreed (Dec 8, 2005)

I purchased three bow ties (on sale) from J. Crew this past week and all three were made in the US. I would actually say that the majority of my ties from J. Crew, especially the ones purchased within the last year, are mostly made in the US.


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## Towner (Jun 23, 2006)

Ford certainly does own the aforementioned "premium" brands of autos. I suppose that my mind enjoys processing the fact that Ford is still one of the last bastions of the industry that is 'Ford Family' controlled and, for the majority of shares, owned. However, with that being said, ALLEN---- the 240 was indeed a class act. I still own my 1993 White Volvo 240(last year it was produced). It just rolled up 60,000 miles, YES you heard me correctly, SIXTY THOUSAND miles just a few days ago. It is quite the rarity on the roads in my small West Virginia town. Sorry about 'stepping on your toes' about driving a domestic. I have no room a 'tall to do that. Grew up in a staunch Daimler-Benz loving family. However, there was always an F-150 parked in one of the garage bays. 
I believe I spied a Porsche sitting in your driveway a few pic posts ago. That's always been a dream car for me. 

Towner


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## Trimmer (Nov 2, 2005)

Harris said:


> Buy American.


I'll think about it.

Trimmer


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## mpcsb (Jan 1, 2005)

*Think*

Harris, you got me thinking about an old hippy vegan back to the land social justice saying which seems to apply here "Think global, buy local." Local as in the US of A. Ha - what memories.


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## tmack3 (Jan 14, 2006)

generally - i prefer to buy from the US, the UK, Australia (not much to buy) and Canada. I would purchase from Japan, but there's not much clothing offerings from there. I wouldn't/don't hestitate to purchase electronics or cars from the Japanese, especially since so many japanese cars are made by americans. i'm indifferent toward purchasing italian made wares.

I painstakingly try to avoid buying anything from France and to a slightly lesser extent, Germany and China


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

We're close to pulling the trigger on a Ford 500. Good lookin' car. Roomy. No frills. 

-Harris


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Harris said:


> We're close to pulling the trigger on a Ford 500. Good lookin' car. Roomy. No frills.
> 
> -Harris


Aw, Harris, not a Crown Victoria?? Body-on-frame, V8, RWD? American as they come?

On topic, I buy mostly US/English made stuff. I can't really afford Aldens on my current budget but I see it as my patriotic duty to support American workers whenever possible. Granted some of my stuff is also thrifted and was made here back when that still was common. I figure I'm not helping the garment workers through that but at least I'm not abetting the foreign labor either by buying a new Made In Bangladesh product.


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## mfdugan (Apr 21, 2006)

Harris said:


> I feel sure Tom will "chime in" with an "Amen" (he's a good Catholic, I think) as I confess that, as I look at my wardrobe, the clothing to which I return repeatedly is USA owned and made.
> 
> We hear a lot these days about how USA owned and made goods "aren't what they used to be." Well, it's easy to respond to that by remembering and naming the excellent USA owned businesses that continue to rely upon excellent American management and labor.
> 
> ...


I would be interested in a comprehensive list of all things American in the fashion, furnishing, accessory categories. Suits, shirts, shoes, ties, pens, watches, lighters, luggage, briefcases, wallets and so on.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*"American Made" redux*

So the concensus seems to be that if Americans are just somehow able to add value to a product, it is okay? The metal can be mined and smelted in one country, turned into parts in another, but if a Ford is assembled in the US, it's okay? Any input welcome, just trying to explore this concept further.

Warmest regards


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> So the concensus seems to be that if Americans are just somehow able to add value to a product, it is okay? The metal can be mined and smelted in one country, turned into parts in another, but if a Ford is assembled in the US, it's okay? Any input welcome, just trying to explore this concept further.
> 
> Warmest regards


Well it's the jobs of our people. Not to restart the interchange globalization debate but I don't see how anyone with a good conscience could prefer to see someone whose name I can't even pronounce putting together Fords somewhere else when Joe Bleaux here is out on the street because he has no job.

The parts in my 20 year old car are apparently all US as they have labels of the company who made them on them i.e. "R-12 Air Conditioner, Harrison Corporation, Lockport NY" but even if it was made by Fresca Aire in Mexicali or something, I'd be glad to pay for an American worker to put it together. One less unemployed person in Detroit.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

mfdugan said:


> I would be interested in a comprehensive list of all things American in the fashion, furnishing, accessory categories. Suits, shirts, shoes, ties, pens, watches, lighters, luggage, briefcases, wallets and so on.


I'll post some specific clothing sites when I have more time tomorrow, but here are some general that link to manufacturers or offer only American-made goods:

https://www.madeinusa.com/

https://buyamerican.com/

https://www.howtobuyamerican.com/


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

*Well.....*



Coolidge24 said:


> ....someone whose name I can't even pronounce....One less unemployed person in Detroit.


I lived and work in and around Detroit for years. So you can pronounce "Shan'qu'kay"? How about "Al-Munba'ith"? That's who is working for the Big Three to a degree in and around Dearborn/Detroit. Go to Ford World Headquarter in Dearborn just off the Schaffer and look at an office listing also. Food for thought about our prejudices, chow down.

Warmest regards


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I would like to add two things. 

First, I was concerned I might be pulling this more into Interchange territory but the OP was so loaded that I do not think I could pull it any further towards whatever home the mods place it.

Second, I do not go out of my way to buy foreign or domestic. I merely try to maximize my value for dollar spent. "Value" can include intangibles such as cachet, which some here are certainly looking for i.e. Harley-Davidson. It usually is heavily weighted towards benefits per dollar spent however, and that is big in my decision making matrix. 

Whatever makes one happy is what I say, I just wanted to get in that I do not go out of my way to buy either foreign or domestic, I simply seek what I feel will give the best value.

Warmest (Canadian made) regards


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## Foghorn (Feb 2, 2005)

Trimmer said:


> I'll think about it.
> 
> Trimmer


Trimmer,
I can think one USA made product that would be of benefit, Ex-Lax.

I have supported & will continue to patronize USA & UK make products.

Anyone tried Cape Shoe (navaho?), they make an oxford with a lug sole that rivals Commando soles. 
Regards,
F


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*The Ford Five Hundred is an*

excellant choice. It is actually the successor to the Crown Victoria. It is comparable to cars costing many thousands more. Avoid the AWD and the CVT. opt for the leather interior.
Kevin Phillips recent book American Theocracy made the point that a country that does not manufacture products is historically on the down cycle of prosperity.


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## Super Fly (Nov 25, 2004)

*A few other good things- worth supporting:*

Red Wing Boots
Knapp Boots
Wilson NFL Football (Horween leather)
Parker Pens (vintage)
Fisher Space Pen 
Trafalgar leathergoods
Atlas luggage
Leatherman knives
Maglite
Levis vintage
Brooks Brothers OCBD
Brooks Brothers ties
Quoddy Trail Moccasins
Rivendell Bicycles
Alden (of course)
Grandpa's Wonder Pine Tar Soap
Zero Halliburton cases
J Press


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

Obviously the point is moot for AAAC/T users who happen to be natives of non-USA countries - let's not rub their misfortune in their faces icon_smile_big: ).


Personally I'll always make an effort to find US-made stuff. I won't buy junk just because it's made here, but I might well pay a little more for well-made domestic products. Quite bluntly, if it helps keep my fellow-citizens employed, & my country's balance of payments healthy, I think it's worth it. 


Taking this a step further into Interchange territory, I'd unhesitatingly buy a French product (pesky little Jerry-Lewis-loving democracy) over one from China (huge ruthless communist dictatorship with dreams (?) of world domination).


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## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

It is possible to manufacture in the USA, but good luck finding raw materials and trim.

Carl


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Harris said:


> Buy American.


I buy Bill's khakis and Mercer shirts, and I just ordered a Col. Littleton belt, but I don't have any Aldens yet. It would be nice to have more choices in American made clothing, but I don't think I will ever give up my Volvos and Saabs. We just drove the new Volvo C70 this weekend, and I think we will be bringing one home soon.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

crs and Super Fly, thanks for those posts--the websites and the list.

Cooly, I'm all for the Crown Vic, but the wife prefers the 500.

Tom, _right on._

Speaking of American owned and made, the Bills M1 Button-Fly is addictive. I now put them on instinctively without hesitation or second thought...even when they're filthy. What a great pair of khakis. One pair is worth ten or two dozen of anything else.


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## ShanCawl (Mar 4, 2006)

I am with Foghorn, USA / UK... many UK products are also very good, and stand as good cousins to their American counterparts.


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## Tom Buchanan (Nov 7, 2005)

I believe that Harris was referring to Tom22, but since I am also Tom and catholic (although I am not sure how good a one), I will join the congregation in a chant of "Aaaaameeeen."

I certainly like to try to buy American. At the risk of someone taking the flag that I unabashedly wave away from me, I sometimes wonder if the US should be building cars that could be built by much cheaper labor overseas, or if such labor and efforts should be utilized for other goods/services. Still, I do try to buy American, and in particular, support the smaller providers that this page has well pointed out.


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## kforton (Oct 26, 2005)

Harris said:


> We're close to pulling the trigger on a Ford 500. Good lookin' car. Roomy. No frills.
> 
> -Harris


I have also been strangely attracted to the Ford 500. If only it came in a wagon.

Also, I heard a story this morning about factories in Jordan that are using essentially slave labor from China to produce garments for, among others, LL Bean. What has happened to our Maine brethren?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Tom Buchanan said:


> I certainly like to try to buy American. At the risk of someone taking the flag that I unabashedly wave away from me, I sometimes wonder if the US should be building cars that could be built by much cheaper labor overseas, or if such labor and efforts should be utilized for other goods/services.


Excellent point, one that I was hesistant to post as economics usually opens up a whole can of worms. Comparative advantage, Macro Econ 101.

Warmest regards


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

Coolidge24 said:


> Well it's the jobs of our people. Not to restart the interchange globalization debate but I don't see how anyone with a good conscience could prefer to see someone whose name I can't even pronounce putting together Fords somewhere else when Joe Bleaux here is out on the street because he has no job.
> 
> The parts in my 20 year old car are apparently all US as they have labels of the company who made them on them i.e. "R-12 Air Conditioner, Harrison Corporation, Lockport NY" but even if it was made by Fresca Aire in Mexicali or something, I'd be glad to pay for an American worker to put it together. One less unemployed person in Detroit.


I feel no special urge to buy American products. Given the increasing composition of the American labor force for manufactured goods. I fail to see why I should pay more for an American product so that the employer can then turn a around and pay some recent emigre from a 3rd world country or some illegal who lives here in the U.S. when it's probably better for the U.S. to keep such workers in their respective countries and create jobs down there. What, do you guys actually think it's a bunch of WASPs making your Bill's Khakis? Give me a break. In some cases, it's arguable that "buying American" only increases the incentives for American employers to hire more illegal or "low-cost" labor as the only means left of allowing them to continue to produce in the U.S. on an even remotely effective cost-efficient basis. Who do you really think is working in what few remaining fabric mills we have? There names ain't "Jones" We have an undocumented worker problem in this country for a reason - it's because they get employed; there is strong demand to hire these people. Don't think because your buying American, you're actually supporting an American worker. Jobs in meat packing plants 30 years ago used to be middle-class jobs, no more. And those towns which have meat packing plants tend to have a large number of sign in government offices in, among other languages, vietnamese and spanish.

I'd love to know the percentage of recent "immigrants" are making your Bills Khakis, BB OCBD, Col. Littleton gadgets, etc.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

It's difficult for any American to take a "high moral ground" on this issue, since it's damned near impossible to buy American on a consistent basis. Case in point: Without taking note of the phrase "imported" in the catalog, we ordered some great coffee mugs from the Vermont Country Store a while back, only to discover they were made somewhere beyond the boundaries of the USA. They're great. I like 'em and plan to keep 'em. Ditto for the pairs of PoloRL G.I. Chinos I bought a while back for $50/each. They easily rival the weight (pushing 9 oz.?) and construction of my Bills, which is not an easy thing to admit. 

My initial post wasn't so much a staking of high moral ground as it was/is an admission that most of my favorites are American owned and made goods. I can be as much of a hypocrite as anybody: If PoloRL offered a 5.5 oz. OCBD with 3.5" unlined collars, a long tail, and a patch pocket in numerical sizes for less than $80, I'd be on 'em like stink on you know what. If I found a Southwick-made J. Press in my size on sale for next to nothing, I'd very likely (conveniently) forget that Press is a Japanese-owned entity.


-Harris


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Harris said:


> I can be as much of a hypocrite as anybody: If PoloRL offered a 5.5 oz. OCBD with 3.5" unlined collars, a long tail, and a patch pocket in numerical sizes for less than $80, I'd be on 'em like stink on you know what.


Harris, you are a great chap and please do not take anything I have explored in this thread as a personal attack. Exploring this has been great fun too!

I would point out though, the beauty of my position, that of one simply from a value proposition, is that I am not required to be a hypocrit  Then again, while some accuse me of being an "extreme right winger" (wonder where gmac is?) I am not American either 

Warmest regards


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Rocker said:


> I feel no special urge to buy American products. Given the increasing composition of the American labor force for manufactured goods. I fail to see why I should pay more for an American product so that the employer can then turn a around and pay some recent emigre from a 3rd world country or some illegal who lives here in the U.S. when it's probably better for the U.S. to keep such workers in their respective countries and create jobs down there. What, do you guys actually think it's a bunch of WASPs making your Bill's Khakis? Give me a break. In some cases, it's arguable that "buying American" only increases the incentives for American employers to hire more illegal or "low-cost" labor as the only means left of allowing them to continue to produce in the U.S. on an even remotely effective cost-efficient basis. Who do you really think is working in what few remaining fabric mills we have? There names ain't "Jones" We have an undocumented worker problem in this country for a reason - it's because they get employed; there is strong demand to hire these people. Don't think because your buying American, you're actually supporting an American worker. Jobs in meat packing plants 30 years ago used to be middle-class jobs, no more. And those towns which have meat packing plants tend to have a large number of sign in government offices in, among other languages, vietnamese and spanish.
> 
> I'd love to know the percentage of recent "immigrants" are making your Bills Khakis, BB OCBD, Col. Littleton gadgets, etc.


But it's always been that way. The point is, manufacturing jobs here allow recent immigrants to become part of the American Dream. My father's German grandparents came over and worked, he as a steelworker, she as a seamstress. Within 15 years they were homeowners in a middle-class suburb near NYC. When good manufacturing jobs disappear, you'd need to deliver one heck of a lot of wonton soup to afford a $400,000 Cape Cod starter home in that same suburb today.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> But it's always been that way. The point is, manufacturing jobs here allow recent immigrants to become part of the American Dream. My father's German grandparents came over and worked, he as a steelworker...


And where is the US steel industry now and why? You make the perfect point against your case.

Warmest regards


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## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

crs said:


> But it's always been that way. The point is, manufacturing jobs here allow recent immigrants to become part of the American Dream. My father's German grandparents came over and worked, he as a steelworker, she as a seamstress. Within 15 years they were homeowners in a middle-class suburb near NYC. When good manufacturing jobs disappear, you'd need to deliver one heck of a lot of wonton soup to afford a $400,000 Cape Cod starter home in that same suburb today.


That's heartwarming - How many of yor great-grandpaernts came here illegally? Further, there were not the social programs available in this country that there are now when your great granparents came here. Shocking as it it to beleive, some people don't come here to work - some come here for benefits. Further, say 100 years ago, before OSHA, Social Security, etc. and all the various federal and state laws reagrding employment taxes, saftey, etc. (I am NOT arguing that OSHA should be eliminated) the cost of hiring an undocumented workers versus a documented worker provided no real advantge to the employer - becasue compliance costs were low. Nowadays there is a huge cost differential bewteen paying illegal/undocumented and paying a worker in full compliance under the law.

And, you're wrong about the whole American dream thing - this influx of cheap, unskilled labor depresses wages for current low-skilled Americans and kills their "American Dream." There are, as I mentioned, many jobs that were once middle-class jobs which, becasue of the glut of un-skilled/low-skilled labors, have now become relatively undesrieable jobs becasue of their comparative low wages. An example in one of today's papers :

So, I think your point, form many reasons, isn't really appropos to what I'm talking about. This isn't the America of 1890, or whenever your ancestors came here.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Harris said:


> It's difficult for any American to take a "high moral ground" on this issue, since it's damned near impossible to buy American on a consistent basis. Case in point: Without taking note of the phrase "imported" in the catalog, we ordered some great coffee mugs from the Vermont Country Store a while back, only to discover they were made somewhere beyond the boundaries of the USA. They're great. I like 'em and plan to keep 'em. Ditto for the pairs of PoloRL G.I. Chinos I bought a while back for $50/each. They easily rival the weight (pushing 9 oz.?) and construction of my Bills, which is not an easy thing to admit.
> 
> My initial post wasn't so much a staking of high moral ground as it was/is an admission that most of my favorites are American owned and made goods. I can be as much of a hypocrite as anybody: If PoloRL offered a 5.5 oz. OCBD with 3.5" unlined collars, a long tail, and a patch pocket in numerical sizes for less than $80, I'd be on 'em like stink on you know what. If I found a Southwick-made J. Press in my size on sale for next to nothing, I'd very likely (conveniently) forget that Press is a Japanese-owned entity.
> 
> -Harris


Well, Harris, it's hard to be a purist. I have some Land's End and I wear Canadian underwear. Recently I bought a Russian-made mechanical watch from Vermont Country Store. But I buy American as much as I can and have never owned any cars but Dodge, Ford, Buick, Chevy.

I can't vouch for all these. I did a search a few months back to save for future reference:

https://www.johnsonwoolenmills.com/

https://www.pointerbrand.com/

https://www.unionmadeclothing.com/


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> And where is the US steel industry now and why? You make the perfect point against your case.
> 
> Warmest regards


I really don't see how the virtual disappearance of the U.S. steel industry has anything to do with negating the point that this nation once offered far better opportunities to new Americans. If anything, it should serve as a wakeup call that we easily could lose what little heavy industry remains.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> I really don't see how the virtual disappearance of the U.S. steel industry has anything to do with negating the point that this nation once offered far better opportunities to new Americans. If anything, it should serve as a wakeup call that we easily could lose what little heavy industry remains.


I can not hold your hand and lead you through this process but you are going to have to apply some critical thinking skills here to arrive at enlightenment. Do not fixate on the fact the industry has virtually disappeared, think on and investigate the reasons why. Process is often equally as important as outcome.

Warmest regards


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Let's not get too far afield here or this might have to be moved to the Interchange ('Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter the Interchange').


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Wayfarer said:


> I can not hold your hand and lead you through this process but you are going to have to apply some critical thinking skills here to arrive at enlightenment. Do not fixate on the fact the industry has virtually disappeared, think on and investigate the reasons why. Process is often equally as important as outcome.
> 
> Warmest regards


Look, I read the Bartlett and Steele series when it was published in the 1990s.

Don't take a pompous, self-important stance without backing it up with some FACTS.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Sorry, AlanC. Didn't see your post till now.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crs said:


> Look, I read the Bartlett and Steele series when it was published in the 1990s.
> 
> Don't take a pompous, self-important stance without backing it up with some FACTS.


As the mods have asked, I will not reply to this personal attack. My only hope is this refusal to attack back will not be seen as pompous.

Warmest regards


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

If you find a quality product made here in the US, it is not a bad idea to support them. Whenever you spend a dollar, think about where it goes and what impact it will have on the economy. This isn't flag waiving or xenophobic overkill. Look at our balance of trade, even exclusive of energy. Dollars spent here circulate and multiply. Dollars spent elsewhere may come back, but typically in the form of debt (Fannie Mae, treasury bonds, etc.)

The next big wave of outsourcing will hit the service professions. Not simply call centers and the like, but think higher ticket professions - radiologists, for instance. Like the factory workers of 20 years ago, the professional class will soon begin experiencing the effects of globalization. The benefits of free trade are real, but we have the responsibility of being educated consumers. There is no such thing as a free lunch.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

mfdugan said:


> I would be interested in a comprehensive list of all things American in the fashion, furnishing, accessory categories. Suits, shirts, shoes, ties, pens, watches, lighters, luggage, briefcases, wallets and so on.


With the exception of RGM, there is no such thing as a good American-made watch.

American leatherwork, while not bad does not compare to what is produced by the French, Italians and English.

For these things, unfortunately, one is forced to look beyond our borders for quality.


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## Larsd4 (Oct 14, 2005)

Buy one grade better than the best quality you can reasonably afford, then look at the country of origin sticker on the way home. Hopefully, it'll say "Made in USA". If not, maybe the mediocre American firm supplying the passed over goods will get smart or get out of the business. What will be left will be superior world class competitors. Think Filson, Alden, Bill's, Red Wing, Allen Edmonds...and others. If we wish to maintain a high standard of living in this country, competing on price with China and India will be a race to the bottom. We can only effectively compete on quality. Vote with your dollars.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Since this is essentially an Interchange topic from the start, I'd like to comment on this rather provocative statement:



Coolidge24 said:


> I don't see how anyone with a good conscience could prefer to see someone whose name I can't even pronounce putting together Fords somewhere else when Joe Bleaux here is out on the street because he has no job.


I believe that I have a reasonably good conscience and that is exactly what I would like to see.

That guy who's name you cannot pronounce will likely benefit from that job (which pays what, on a global scale, is a more sensible rate than what you have to pay under-skilled, over-unionized Americans). Those jobs promote political stability in those regions as well as industrial development.

I don't want to 'see' your hypothetical Joe unemployed but I don't want to see someone in the third world nation starving to death along with his family.

Why? Not because I am anti-American but because I am a person.

If anything, I would think that people in the developing world have more of a right to those jobs considering the fact that their American counterparts have had comparatively huge advantages throughout their lives and could not qualify themselves for anything more than an assemblyline.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Larsd4 said:


> Buy one grade better than the best quality you can reasonably afford, then look at the country of origin sticker on the way home. Hopefully, it'll say "Made in USA". If not, maybe the mediocre American firm supplying the passed over goods will get smart or get out of the business. What will be left will be superior world class competitors. Think Filson, Alden, Bill's, Red Wing, Allen Edmonds...and others. If we wish to maintain a high standard of living in this country, competing on price with China and India will be a race to the bottom. We can only effectively compete on quality. Vote with your dollars.


It's really hard to keep up with who's begun outsourcing. Plus, apparently "made in USA" can be loosely defined. Not everything Filson sells is made here. Allen-Edmonds does offer a few Italian-made shoes. Red Wing apparently is doing some outsourcing now:


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Sorry for the move, but I think this thread had gone well beyond its relevance to Trad _per se_.

Continue on, but graciously.


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Cantabrigian said:


> Since this is essentially an Interchange topic from the start, I'd like to comment on this rather provocative statement:
> 
> I believe that I have a reasonably good conscience and that is exactly what I would like to see.
> 
> ...


That's a fair point. I think of it this way. The vast amount of Americans are going to buy the foreign-made goods no matter what; it's not reasonable for me to expect most Americans to suddenly shun goods made in China. However, hopefully some people will seek out American-made goods, enough to keep some factories going. I choose to be one of them, but I claim no moral superiority because of it. It's like my first choice is the small, family-owned hardware store downtown even if they charge a bit more, but if they don't have it and I need to fix the toilet, I reluctantly go to Home Depot. But I try not to make Home Depot, etc., my first stop.


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## Srynerson (Aug 26, 2005)

I'll buy American-made products if they actually represent the best value for the money. Otherwise, I agree with the idea that "'Buy American' is Un-American":


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Cantabrigian said:


> Since this is essentially an Interchange topic from the start...


I must disagree: very little pure "trad" gear is made by companies outside the US. Sure, everyone and their uncle makes khakis, but who outside the US makes khakis with all the right details in the same (single) garment? Thus the made in the USA topic is a common trad forum issue (even if this particular thread has gotten a wee bit off topic...).


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> The next big wave of outsourcing will hit the service professions. Not simply call centers and the like, but think higher ticket professions - radiologists, for instance. Like the factory workers of 20 years ago, the professional class will soon begin experiencing the effects of globalization.


Can you please expand on this? I guess anything that can be transmitted electronically, right? Like drafting and some engineering work? Do you think corporate offices will still have accounting and payables departments? What about investment banks?

I recently read an article about 'the corner office in Shanghai' or something like that, and how the next phase of globalization would be in the corporate level and those jobs would go to Asia, where CEOs and such would make a fraction of the pay. That would leave the sales force and service reps in the USA. I thought it was a bad idea but I'm interested to see who else agrees.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

One service industry that is already getting overseas competition is tutoring. I saw a tv news spot recently (Campbell Brown, maybe?) that featured US kids getting help from tutors in Bangalore, etc. I believe the same piece talked about doctors overseas reading and evaluating X-rays for US hospitals, etc.


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*I don't particularly advocate shooting*

this thread (which I have in the past, hopefully killing off a goofball thread forever) but if the ***** were still alive I would advocate shooting Ayn Rand.


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Oh and H: you might*

want to wait a month or two, sounds like american car bargains are returning in force this month ot two. You might also want to look at the Buick Lucern: a Cadillac for 10 grand less. those are the two cars I have my eye on. Beyond the Pontiac Solstice.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

tmack3 said:


> I painstakingly try to avoid buying anything from France and to a slightly lesser extent, Germany and China


Interesting. Do you have an international scale of who happens to agree with the foreign policy of the current American government you use as a yardstick to judge your purchases? I am curious as to the criteria you use.

As for me, I tend to have the same opinion as Karl, Wayfarer and so many others. I buy whatever has the best value for me. I check the label on the way home. If it is made in France, that's even better, if it isn't, I do not really care.


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

crazyquik said:


> Can you please expand on this? I guess anything that can be transmitted electronically, right? Like drafting and some engineering work? Do you think corporate offices will still have accounting and payables departments? What about investment banks?


I-banks are already starting to outsource the less sophisticated financial analysis work to India. It's much less expensive than using a newly-minted MBA in New York.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

I'm surprised to see so many Americans who seem to be against global free-market capitalism. Surely that in itself is anti-American?


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich,

There is strong nativist and isolationist sentiment in the US that is very suspicious of global capitalism (though I don't think most of the posters in this thread are that extreme.) Though thankfully we don't have an American version of Jose Bove yet!

Karl


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Karl89 said:


> Rich,
> 
> There is strong nativist and isolationist sentiment in the US that is very suspicious of global capitalism (though I don't think most of the posters in this thread are that extreme.) Though thankfully we don't have an American version of Jose Bove yet!
> 
> Karl


This is something of an eye-opener for me. Europeans tend to think that all Americans instinctively support private enterprise, a deregulated free market and are against all forms of national protectionism. Another myth.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich,

I think that many Europeans harbor myths about the US. And in my experience the more anti-American the person is the more they harbor myths about the US. Look at Congress and you will see that usually 30-45% of votes go against free trade.

Karl


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Strange. Surely private enterprise and free trade are what made the US great. At least that is the orthodox view here - supported by official pronouncements from successive US governments and mainstream media.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> Can you please expand on this? I guess anything that can be transmitted electronically, right? Like drafting and some engineering work? Do you think corporate offices will still have accounting and payables departments? What about investment banks?
> 
> I recently read an article about 'the corner office in Shanghai' or something like that, and how the next phase of globalization would be in the corporate level and those jobs would go to Asia, where CEOs and such would make a fraction of the pay. That would leave the sales force and service reps in the USA. I thought it was a bad idea but I'm interested to see who else agrees.


Here is one of the advantages with using outsourced labor - time zones. Assuming the work is performed with an acceptable accuracy rate, the work is done while we sleep. In essence, the business operation can run on a 24 hour clock. This can prove very helpful for design services, who typically run on tight deadlines. The wave is coming, there is no need to question that. The populations of developing nations require much greater inroads into higher pay labor sources if they are to elevate the nations into the modern world.

As for the questions of free trade, I think most Americans support the concept. It is not a myth that we are more aligned with liberal economics (in the classical sense, not the bastardized meaning of 'liberal'). The nation was founded by peoples seeking opportunity, and their legacy survives to this day. Surveys and trends continue to show general support for the expansion of trade, not more barriers. That said, we must be responsible consumers and business practitioners.

Like the person who walks into a car dealership and checks off every option only to later say, "I can't afford that!", Americans expect everything but demand a low price. We insist our factories must observe the world standard for labor, environment, liability, taxation, community support, etc. Then we expect to visit Wal-Mart and pay bottom dollar prices. There is a bust in that approach, and our leaders don't really tell the public that in so many words.

There are billions of people who stand ready and willing to sell us goods and services, but who do not insist upon the same production conditions. These offerings will be cheaper, and Americans generally buy the cheapest. If our production and service base moves away, there is no one to blame but ourselves - not free trade, not 'globalization', but us. We were "free to choose" as Friedman might say. Sort of like, you ate McDonalds four times a week and got fat...surprise, surprise.

Certainly the notion of comparative advantage is at play, here. There are countries who are better adapted to produce particular goods. My concerns address, however, those who make infinite demands yet bemoan the outsourcing trend.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Rich said:


> This is something of an eye-opener for me. Europeans tend to think that all Americans instinctively support private enterprise, a deregulated free market and are against all forms of national protectionism. Another myth.


No Rich, sadly most Americans (and Canadians) are just as brainwashed as the average Euro concerning economics. It often makes me wonder how things like NAFTA were able to get through. I think the answer is the even many Democrats know the facts, they just campaign against them. Never forget it was Clinton that signed NAFTA.

Warmest regards


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Rich said:


> I'm surprised to see so many Americans who seem to be against global free-market capitalism. Surely that in itself is anti-American?


I think what you are seeing here are personal preferences rather than policy statements. I understand the need for free-market capitalism; my choice as an individual is to support American workers when I can. There is a difference between the two, and I don't think it's incompatible.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

crs said:


> I think what you are seeing here are personal preferences rather than policy statements. I understand the need for free-market capitalism; my choice as an individual is to support American workers when I can. There is a difference between the two, and I don't think it's incompatible.


I'm not an economist, but I think there is a fine line between economic patriotism and protectionism. It's clear that if everyone practised economic patriotism world trade would collapse and everyone would be the poorer for it. I can understand supporting small local businesses, even though they may be uncompetitive, for personal reasons, but as Margaret Thatcher famously said "You can't buck the market".

Some time ago American businesses (and politicians) were complaining that Japan was not open enough to US imports. The Japanese replied that they "preferred" Japanese goods - this was denounced as covert protectionism at the time.

Its odd to see Americans here defending home-grown goods when any suspicion of protectionism anywhere else in the world gets an aggressive response from US business and government (that is when US business interests are threatened - think Boeing, think arms deals). If you want to export surely you must expect to import?


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## Maggio (Apr 4, 2005)

There was a story in the WSJ a while back comparing a Toyota Sienna to a Ford Mustang. The Sienna was 90% american parts. The Mustang was less. Substantially less, if I am not mistaken by perhaps 50%...


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Cantabrigian said:


> Since this is essentially an Interchange topic from the start, I'd like to comment on this rather provocative statement:
> 
> I believe that I have a reasonably good conscience and that is exactly what I would like to see.
> 
> ...


And again, I don't see how anyone could possibly be more concerned about people in the developing world than our own people who are losing jobs to them.

Now you're advocating employment affirmative action for people who aren't even members of our citizenry because we've had comparative advantages.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Rich said:


> I'm not an economist, but I think there is a fine line between economic patriotism and protectionism. It's clear that if everyone practised economic patriotism world trade would collapse and everyone would be the poorer for it. I can understand supporting small local businesses, even though they may be uncompetitive, for personal reasons, but as Margaret Thatcher famously said "You can't buck the market".
> 
> Some time ago American businesses (and politicians) were complaining that Japan was not open enough to US imports. The Japanese replied that they "preferred" Japanese goods - this was denounced as covert protectionism at the time.
> 
> Its odd to see Americans here defending home-grown goods when any suspicion of protectionism anywhere else in the world gets an aggressive response from US business and government (that is when US business interests are threatened - think Boeing, think arms deals). If you want to export surely you must expect to import?


Rich,

There is a world of difference between educated consumers showing a preference for domestic goods, all else equal, and a consortium of nations underwriting an airplane manufacturer. The recent shananigans at Airbus should make you rethink that comment.

While I believe many went too far with the Japanese bashing, there does exist a lot of truth in one element of the debate: the US is generally open for business whereas other nations are not. How many countries require a majority or equal 'domestic' partner for all business ventures. For that matter, can you even become a citizen in Japan? Many nations are very closed societies with policies most would consider blantantly racist and xenophobic.

This is not a question of free trade. Rather, we must recognize that today's lowest price is not necessarily the cheapest cost over time. Balance that into the equation, and our consumer choices reflect better reasoning.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

I_Should_Be_Working said:


> Rich,
> 
> There is a world of difference between educated consumers showing a preference for domestic goods, all else equal, and a consortium of nations underwriting an airplane manufacturer. The recent shananigans at Airbus should make you rethink that comment.
> 
> ...


I'm no defender of protectionism, and I agree with you that the US is more open to business than many if not most other developed countries - but this is precisely why I'm surprised at the "buy-American" sentiments expressed here (not for the first time - there have been previous threads on the topic).

Also, there are a couple of ideas that keep coming up, one is that if it's foreign made it must be of inferior quality, and the other is that by buying US-made you're protecting US jobs. I don't think either is necessarily true.

Having said that I agree that shopping on the basis of price alone is often (though not always) a false economy, and that quality has its price (which, of course, is rising relative to average consumer prices). The fact is though that it is possible today to outsource manufacturing to the same quality standards as yesterday at a lower price (or for greater profit, which will generate jobs). Or so it seems to me, but then I'm not an economist.

(The Harry Stonecipher affair was much more entertaining than the present Airbus management performance).


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## crs (Dec 30, 2004)

Rich said:


> I'm not an economist, but I think there is a fine line between economic patriotism and protectionism. It's clear that if everyone practised economic patriotism world trade would collapse and everyone would be the poorer for it. I can understand supporting small local businesses, even though they may be uncompetitive, for personal reasons, but as Margaret Thatcher famously said "You can't buck the market".
> 
> Some time ago American businesses (and politicians) were complaining that Japan was not open enough to US imports. The Japanese replied that they "preferred" Japanese goods - this was denounced as covert protectionism at the time.
> 
> Its odd to see Americans here defending home-grown goods when any suspicion of protectionism anywhere else in the world gets an aggressive response from US business and government (that is when US business interests are threatened - think Boeing, think arms deals). If you want to export surely you must expect to import?


Yes, but people like me understand that the vast majority of Americans will go ahead and buy the foreign goods, and I have no problem if that's their choice. Again, the difference between personal preference and public policy. I'm not one who believes my personal preferences need to be forced on other people, and I support a number of laws or proposed laws that I personally do not want to use. I support the desire of gays to marry but do not want to turn gay myself, support abortion rights but glad I never found myself in that no-win situation, favor legalization of marijuana but have no desire to smoke it (well, anymore, anyway). I favor free trade but prefer to buy American-made (and even better, locally made) goods when possible.

It's also true that when choosing among local merchants and service people, I do not always choose based on price or convenience but on level of service and whether or not I like them. Just got a haircut -- price was right, guy did a good job, but he was a pain in the ass. If this were public policy, it would be a matter or expertise and competitive bidding, I'd have no choice but to make him my barber. But he won't be because I didn't like him, and that is personal choice.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

Rich said:


> (The Harry Stonecipher affair was much more entertaining than the present Airbus management performance).


Give the guy some points. That was rather continental of him.

By the way, one need not be an economist to have a reasonable discussion concerning economic policy. Most these days are so removed they couldn't spot a GE management team from a group of French bureaucrats. That's a little joke for Eric.


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Coolidge24 said:


> And again, I don't see how anyone could possibly be more concerned about people in the developing world than our own people who are losing jobs to them.


Truly you don't see how that is possible? Just a hint: there are people that don't really care about nationality. For them, there is no reason to favour one human being upon another just because he happens to have been born in the same political entity as yourself.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

I don't think we need to compare our economic policies to those around the world. Many societies are closed or open under strict conditions but in my opinion this is to their disadvantage. The thing about America is that we are able to dissociate our economic interests from nationalistic ones. Look at economies around the world and see just how fragile they are because of their policies. Japanese growth has been stagnant and lets not even talk about Europe. "Emerging markets" such as China I believe are as fragile as a soap bubble for many reasons but primarily because the economy is state controlled and we know where that will ultimately lead. 

The reason the American economy is so resilient is because it is open and in the end is a great place for foreign capital. Also consider that our economy's focus has changed from manufacturing and even technology. We are the world's bankers. The top financial firms are U.S. based. The majority of ventue capital is american. Our financial institutions have penetration, one way or another, into just about every major country in the world. Our brands are the best known brands and still "Made in the U.S.A" carries a certain cache that no other label really carries. 

We also have to remember that although the product we are buying may not be U.S. made the fact that it can be had for cheaper means more people can buy the item and thereby improve their standard of living. It also means that the longshoreman working the docks has a job, the truck driver driving the item from California to Ohio has a job, not to mention all the gas stations and restaurants along the way. If the prodcut needs to be serviced, more people will be available to service it as more people will own the product and so on.


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## Martinis at 8 (Apr 14, 2006)

I spend my American dollars buying whatever I want regardless of the products origin. I am for free and unrestricted trade, and this would include rugs from Isfahan, and cigars from Cuba.

Why should some gooberment bureaucrat tell me how to spend my money, when I am the guy that is paying his salary?

What level of madness is this? :icon_smile_big:

M8


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## Harrydog (Apr 2, 2005)

Harris said:


> I feel sure Tom will "chime in" with an "Amen" (he's a good Catholic, I think) as I confess that, as I look at my wardrobe, the clothing to which I return repeatedly is USA owned and made.
> 
> We hear a lot these days about how USA owned and made goods "aren't what they used to be." Well, it's easy to respond to that by remembering and naming the excellent USA owned businesses that continue to rely upon excellent American management and labor.
> 
> ...


I have always thought a great internet store/business would be a "Made in the USA" store, stocking a wide range of products.


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## I_Should_Be_Working (Jun 23, 2005)

pt4u67 said:


> I don't think we need to compare our economic policies to those around the world. Many societies are closed or open under strict conditions but in my opinion this is to their disadvantage. The thing about America is that we are able to dissociate our economic interests from nationalistic ones. Look at economies around the world and see just how fragile they are because of their policies. Japanese growth has been stagnant and lets not even talk about Europe. "Emerging markets" such as China I believe are as fragile as a soap bubble for many reasons but primarily because the economy is state controlled and we know where that will ultimately lead.
> 
> The reason the American economy is so resilient is because it is open and in the end is a great place for foreign capital. Also consider that our economy's focus has changed from manufacturing and even technology. We are the world's bankers. The top financial firms are U.S. based. The majority of ventue capital is american. Our financial institutions have penetration, one way or another, into just about every major country in the world. Our brands are the best known brands and still "Made in the U.S.A" carries a certain cache that no other label really carries.
> 
> We also have to remember that although the product we are buying may not be U.S. made the fact that it can be had for cheaper means more people can buy the item and thereby improve their standard of living. It also means that the longshoreman working the docks has a job, the truck driver driving the item from California to Ohio has a job, not to mention all the gas stations and restaurants along the way. If the prodcut needs to be serviced, more people will be available to service it as more people will own the product and so on.


Good points. Had the Japanese allowed their banks to fail, then changed the lending culture, who knows how their story might have differed over the past decade. Nationalistic tendencies only constrain economies and reduce prosperity.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

Coolidge24 said:


> And again, I don't see how anyone could possibly be more concerned about people in the developing world than our own people who are losing jobs to them.


Coolidge, you're a good guy but you've horribly, horribly misunderstood what I wrote.

I'm not less concerned about 'our' people. I am _equally_ concerned about people in developing nations.

I'm sorry if you can't see how that is possible. I don't really think I can show you... The basic argument is that a person is a person.

By the way, I consider a hard-working individual in another country to be far more of 'my people' than an under-skilled American union worker. And I say that as an American of more generations than I can recall.



Coolidge24 said:


> Now you're advocating employment affirmative action for people who aren't even members of our citizenry because we've had comparative advantages.


Coolidge, again, I think that you are a bit too eager to box my argument into something you can recognize and attack.

I suppose that your economic patriotism is noble - albeit a bit bumptious - but what I am arguing is the *opposite* of affirmitive action.

Affirmative action is paying an American more than he ought to earn to do a simple job for no other reason than because he is American.

Quite the opposite of affirmative action is to pay a someone in the third world a market wage for that same work.

So what I am advocating is letting genuine market forces prevail. You are arguing for afirmative action.

To address then your implicit claim that American workers deserve affirmative action, I would add that they - of anyone in the world - shouldn't need it since our country already provides them with a great advantage.

Hopefully this is clearer. You seem to be pushing for a handout to those who already had a head start.

I am pushing for fair, non-reactionary treatment for those who have not had similar advantages.


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## tom22 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Free trade is always beneficial to the strongest*

trade partner. For many years that was the US. Today that is China. The Hayekian free traders are the advocates for a third world dictatorship that despises the values that we hold dear. But hey: Ayn Rand, Hayek: knock yourselves out. and crush america's working class while you do it.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

tom22 said:


> trade partner. For many years that was the US. Today that is China. The Hayekian free traders are the advocates for a third world dictatorship that despises the values that we hold dear. But hey: Ayn Rand, Hayek: knock yourselves out. and crush america's working class while you do it.


You completely misunderstand Hayek. I think if you really read and studied him you would see that his view of dictatorship is that it will ultimately fail and take with it many innocent lives. I'm afraid you are wrong on another count. Between China and the U.S. we are the stronger of the two. We don't need China, she needs us. We need China for one thing: cheap goods. There are a multitude of other countries that can produce good as cheap. China on the other hand relies completely on our dollars to finance its state contolled growth. Additionally, wealth in China is terribly concentrated with no chance for the upward mobility that exists in the west and particularly in the U.S. China is by far in the weaker position.


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## Cantabrigian (Aug 29, 2005)

tom22 said:


> The Hayekian free traders are the advocates for a third world dictatorship that despises the values that we hold dear. But hey: Ayn Rand, Hayek: knock yourselves out. and crush america's working class while you do it.


Someone can believe that no one - including Americans - should be grossly overpaid for low-value-creating jobs as, for instance, some American autoworkers are...

And someone can think that such production should be moved to where the labor market is more favorable...

...without supporting a dictator. One option is to advocate moving production only to democracies (some of which you could could probably argue are purer than ours) which have labor rates that make more sense.

And even if someone were to accept or even advocate moving production to less-than-democratic states (or very-less-than-democratic states), that would not necessarily mean supporting a dictator. If anything I believe that would tend to decrease nationalist semtiment in that country - which would on balance tend to destabalize a dictatorship.

I would say that you have it somewhat backwards. American protectionism - which necessarily induces protectionist sentiment elsewhere - does far more to support dictators than free trade does precisely because they thrive on nationalist sentiment of which their local protectionism is a part.


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## Coolidge24 (Mar 21, 2005)

Étienne said:


> Truly you don't see how that is possible? Just a hint: there are people that don't really care about nationality. For them, there is no reason to favour one human being upon another just because he happens to have been born in the same political entity as yourself.


I'm sorry for those people. I can't imagine they think much of, or value the traditions of, their own countries if they don't have a special place in their hearts for their own people.

There are also people who DO care about nationality and protect their own.

There is every reason to favor your own countrymen. They're, uh, your OWN.

Sorry if nationalism offends your higher sense of social democracy. Do you advocate fragging your own soldiers too?


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Welcome to the Club!*

I just got a fascinating email from one of the world's best
bow tie manufacturers about the $9.99 bow ties from Lands End.

"You get what you pay for plus who knows how much the poor 
workers who made them got paid? If you are selling ties for
$10 they are probably being made in asia, no matter what the
label says. Here is a bit of trivia, did you know that for
ties your label can say made in USA as long as some process
was done to them here, such as attaching the label! They can 
also say hand made as long as some part of the process was
hand done, does not have to be all of the processes!"

Just thought I should share this.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

If given the choice between two goods that are equal in price and quality and one is made in America and the other is not - I buy American.

However, if given the choice between two goods that are not equal in both of those respects, I buy the good that gives me the most value regardless of where it comes from (with a few narrow exceptions). I'm a firm believer in free trade and if some other country can do something better than we can then we should let them do it and we should move on to something else. If we give US manufacturers the impression that we will buy whatever they produce regardless of quality or value - just because it's produced in the USA - we risk rolling down a slippery slope of decline.

Also, I think some of you over-romanticize this notion of American manufacturers in a world where things are much more complex than they appear. Is it okay to buy goods from a company that manufactures their products in the USA but has transferred their customer service department to India? Is it okay to buy goods from a company where the majority of shareholders are Americans but they manufacture all of their goods abroad? Is it okay to buy goods from a company where the majority of shareholders or the domicile of the company is foreign but they manufacture their goods in the United States? Is it okay to buy goods from a company that manufactures their goods in the United States using foreign raw materials? Is it okay to buy goods from a company that manufactures their goods abroad using American raw materials? Pretty much, any rules that you come up with are going to be arbitrary.


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## odoreater (Feb 27, 2005)

Coolidge24 said:


> I'm sorry for those people. I can't imagine they think much of, or value the traditions of, their own countries if they don't have a special place in their hearts for their own people.
> 
> There are also people who DO care about nationality and protect their own.
> 
> ...


I wonder who you consider as your OWN? Is it only people who have the same traditions as you do or does it include all Americans (who, after all, have a huge variety of traditions because they come from all over the world)?


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## Étienne (Sep 3, 2005)

Coolidge24 said:


> I'm sorry for those people. I can't imagine they think much of, or value the traditions of, their own countries if they don't have a special place in their hearts for their own people.


Well at least it seems you now see how such a position is "possible" even if you don't agree.

One wonders though... What makes nationality the decisive factor in deciding who is "your own"? Do you think I have more in common with a fellow French citizen who happens to be a muslim fundamentalist than with a well-educated American citizen who is not? I find your degree of certainty fascinating.



> There is every reason to favor your own countrymen. They're, uh, your OWN.


Wow. "Every reason"? Please, do elaborate.


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## Tyto (Sep 22, 2004)

pt4u67 said:


> Between China and the U.S. we are the stronger of the two. We don't need China, she needs us. We need China for one thing: cheap goods. There are a multitude of other countries that can produce good as cheap. China on the other hand relies completely on our dollars to finance its state contolled growth. Additionally, wealth in China is terribly concentrated with no chance for the upward mobility that exists in the west and particularly in the U.S. China is by far in the weaker position.


But doesn't China, in turn, also finance something like 66% of our debt? I think they're in a stronger position with respect to the US than you give them credit for.


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Tyto,

The ChiComs don't account for 66% of our foreign debt but they are now the biggest foreign creditor to the US. But this hardly dangerous - they need our market far more than we need them to buy T-bills. Sure if there wasn't a Chinese appettite for US debt we would have higher borrowing costs but if the US market was closed to the PRC they would collapse.

I am always puzzled why so many people worry about the amount of foreign investment in the US and the fact that so much US debt is in foreign hands. This is a sign of strength, not weakness.

Just wait until transparency issues become a problem in China, especially with all the new IPOs. And worse will be NPL crisis that hits when Chinese banks can no longer fudge the accounting - it took Japan 10+ plus years to deal with that issue and they still face some problems.

China doesn't scare me but then again I don't live in Astana, Lhasa or Tapei. Or Siberia, especially Siberia.

Karl


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## Chuck Franke (Aug 8, 2003)

With the world as it is I am quite sure that many products will be multinational in terms of materials and construction but I have a solution that is, I think, more practical and logical.

Make our trade regulations with each country mirror their policy on our goods and services. We can't sell there? Pack up yer goodies and head back out to sea.

Do a little research on how much real property in the US is now owned by China. Why fight us when buying us at eBay prices will do?


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Tyto said:


> But doesn't China, in turn, also finance something like 66% of our debt? I think they're in a stronger position with respect to the US than you give them credit for.


They finance our debt because they have dollars from trading with us. The root of the matter is that if not for trade with us they would not have the dollars. I believe in the 70's Japan was in a similar situation because of the trade we did with them. Begin cutting back on the trade we do with China and other countries will begin to finance our debt.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

After reading some posts here, I have decided to buy 100% of my purchases now, from only Oregon hippy co-operatives and communes. That way, I can be rest assured the product is 100% verifiable only 'Merican input. I mean, have you ever seen all the furriners working in the fields, at car plants, and in healthcare facilities? Damn...now I have to go to Oregon for health care!

Oh snap! I'm a furriner myself!! Now I'm REALLY in a quandry.


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## dpihl (Oct 2, 2005)

*Sorry, we thought you knew.*



Wayfarer said:


> After reading some posts here, I have decided to buy 100% of my purchases now, from only Oregon hippy co-operatives and communes. That way, I can be rest assured the product is 100% verifiable only 'Merican input. I mean, have you ever seen all the furriners working in the fields, at car plants, and in healthcare facilities? Damn...now I have to go to Oregon for health care!
> 
> Oh snap! I'm a furriner myself!! Now I'm REALLY in a quandry.


You don't mean to say that you haven't been let in on the joke yet?

Them Oregonians are as foreign as they come. Most of the Hippie throwback types there came from planet Nebula.


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