# Is there a 'quintessential' trad OCBD?



## Virtue Aesthetics (Jul 31, 2013)

Its about time I delved into OCBDs, and I always like to start off with whatever is generally considered to be the most classic- like weejuns are to penny loafers, or Lacoste/PRL is to polo shirts (tennis shirts if you prefer), Burberry/Aqua Scutum is to the beige-tan trench.

So I'm thinking white, or light blue, no crest on the chest of course. My guess is the most quintessential OCBD would be from PRL, BB, or LL Bean. I'm also open to the idea like with my conception of white bucs, it is actually more _tradly _to ignore the brand altogether and avoid the big brands... white bucs from Alden for example seem silly to me.

What are you thoughts AAAC? Any further advice?

Cheers
-James


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

BB, Gitman, Mercer, Kamakura will be the choices here, I think. PRL has short points and LLB only (or typically only) comes in non-iron.


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Gitman was always my first choice, especially with the flap pocket. it was only a few years ago I found J Press had flap pockets for years.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Brooks Brothers is the original and has all the quintessential details. I do, however, prefer side pleats in the back rather than the centre which is part of why I get my OCBDs from Ratio Clothing now (besides that they also offer a "secret" unlined long roll BD option). Other things like locker loops, back collar button, flapped pocket are optional and make it more casual.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Tilton said:


> BB, Gitman, Mercer, Kamakura will be the choices here, I think. PRL has short points and LLB only (or typically only) comes in non-iron.


I would avoid LLB as the non-iron tends to be less breathable and comfortable to wear (I returned mine for this same reason). I hope that I have not offended any wearers of said shirt here...


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Jovan said:


> Brooks Brothers is the original and has all the quintessential details. I do, however, prefer side pleats in the back rather than the centre which is part of why I get my OCBDs from Ratio Clothing now (besides that they also offer a "secret" unlined long roll BD option). Other things like locker loops, back collar button, flapped pocket are optional and make it more casual.


And, furthermore, Jovan happens to own stock in Ratio Clothing, LLC. :biggrin:


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## Tilton (Nov 27, 2011)

Brio1 said:


> I would avoid LLB as the non-iron tends to be less breathable and comfortable to wear (I returned mine for this same reason). I hope that I have not offended any wearers of said shirt here...


I have learned to avoid all non-irons except for a few rarely-worn sport shirts. I find that my heavy facial hair leads to extremely premature wear on the sharp edges of non-irons. Similarly, I wear out non-iron khakis much faster on the hems, perma-creases, and pocket edges.


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

Mercer, full cut and all.


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## TradThrifter (Oct 22, 2012)

I own VV, LE, LLBean, Gant, Gitman, BB, RL, Lyle&Scott ocbd shirts. The most trad i guess would be BB since it is the original and then Gitman right behind it. I do enjoy all of my shirts and use all the brands for different purposes.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

BB is the answer to your question. I prefer the Slim Fit version.


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## UnivStripe (Mar 6, 2013)

My sources for OCBD Shirts are Brooks Brothers, J Press, O'Connell's, Mercer and Sons, and Gitman Brothers.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

UnivStripe said:


> My sources for OCBD Shirts are Brooks Brothers, J Press, O'Connell's, Mercer and Sons, and Gitman Brothers.


These are all classic choices. BB is the originator, but one must look for the right Brooks. No such problem with Mercer, which is a kind of Grail, though one has to like a full cut -- no trendiness from these guys. Non-iron is anathema to most in this forum. I've tried them, thinking they were a practical choice, but wound up discarding them for their stiffness, a trad no-no. When folk are troubled by the lowering of standards that led to casual clothes all the time, it's wise to remember that what we call trad is the original relaxed style, and manages to be so without losing good form.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

TradThrifter said:


> I own VV, LE, LLBean, Gant, Gitman, BB, RL, Lyle&Scott ocbd shirts. The most trad i guess would be BB since it is the original and then Gitman right behind it. I do enjoy all of my shirts and use all the brands for different purposes.


I'm developing an affinity for VV polos (on sale). I would recommend them, that is if one doesn't mind the "mentally challenged" whale logo.

Perhaps it would be helpful to the OP if the brands were to be listed in order of preference...


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

efdll said:


> These are all classic choices. BB is the originator, but one must look for the right Brooks. No such problem with Mercer, which is a kind of Grail, though one has to like a full cut -- no trendiness from these guys. Non-iron is anathema to most in this forum. I've tried them, thinking they were a practical choice, but wound up discarding them for their stiffness, a trad no-no. When folk are troubled by the lowering of standards that led to casual clothes all the time, it's wise to remember that what we call trad is the original relaxed style, and manages to be so without losing good form.


This is good advice!


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

White bucks from Alden seem silly until you actually see a pair in real time. Then it's the difference between a Fiat and a Ferrari. 

As to the OCBD I've seen more expensive shirts but I'm stuck on Brooks and will continue to buy them until they finally go 100% non-iron. I hope that doesn't happen in my lifetime but I'm not sure. A few years back they got heavily into stain-resistant ties and that died a natural death but it looks like sloth and indifference have won out with respect to ironing shirts. 

You really can't go wrong with any of the choices you named.


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## Virtue Aesthetics (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the input! Popular (enough) opinion and downright convenience dictate that my first OCBD will be from Brooks Brothers, though I am now looking forward to getting into Gitman, Mercer, maybe J Press too.

Brooksfan, I just find it tough to justify spending that kind of money on something that isn't meant to last. In my humble opinion it just feels antithetical to the spirit of Trad. I'd prefer to see something essentially no-name, especially since it is my impression that no particular brand stands out as iconic in white bucs space (Walk Over perhaps?). Having said that, I am no authority on what is Trad so I get the feeling I am only partly right.


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## frydeswide (Nov 7, 2008)

Good choice, I think that you will be pleased with BB. My vote is for Mercer, when you are ready to up your game.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

As others have commented, I'd recommend the Brooks Brothers 132Q shirt as a great staple OCBD. 

But please indulge me as I toss this out there. 

Today, I found myself at JC Penney and noticed a clearance rack of their JCP must-iron OCBDs in blue, blue university stripe and one in pink. All were discounted to $12.99. They are alpha sized and only had S, M, XL and XXL. I tried a M on, but it's just too small for me. They were completely out of size L (my size) in all colors at this store. 

I'm not suggesting that the JCP OCBD is anywhere near the BB 132Q, or Mercer, JPress, et al. I'm also not recommending it as an initial OCBD purchase. But if you're looking to try a few different must-iron OCBDs, at that price, I'd think it's worth it. Especially when must-iron OCBDs are getting harder to find. 

For the OP, I would also recommend seeing what OCBDs you can find at thrift stores. That will allow you to try out a few different brands without breaking the bank.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Brio1 said:


> And, furthermore, Jovan happens to own stock in Ratio Clothing, LLC. :biggrin:


Nah, just really like them.  But I'd be happy to talk more about Ratio in PM if anyone thinks this distracts from the discussion.


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## bigwordprof (Dec 30, 2011)

Most of my OCBD are Brooks, but Ratio is excellent. My next OCBD will definitely be Ratio. Try them with their first-time order discount and I think you'll be quite pleased.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

FLCracka said:


> BB is the answer to your question. I prefer the Slim Fit version.


Virtue Aesthetic, If this is your first one, I think BB is a good place to start as many others here have said - they were the original and still make a fine version. To FL Cracka's point, the regular cut BB OCBD is a very full cut, the slim fit is, IMHO, what a "normal" fit is elsewhere and the extra-slim fit is what slim is elsewhere.

What I am trying to say (and doing a good job at it) is that a Brooks Brother's slim fit OCBD is not so much a slim fit as a not overly baggy fit. If you can, go in and try them on first, but if ordering on the web, I thought this information might help you.

And most importantly, enjoy your OCBD. They get better as they age and, eventually, move from business to casual use as they fade and even fray a bit which, IMHO, is part of the magic of the OCBD as it still looks good when faded and a touch frayed (and feels great). There is something to the Oxford Cloth fabric that makes this a special item - I'm almost jealous that you are about to experience for the first time.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

bigwordprof said:


> Most of my OCBD are Brooks, but Ratio is excellent. My next OCBD will definitely be Ratio. Try them with their first-time order discount and I think you'll be quite pleased.


(I guess it's okay to talk more about them now.)

From what I understand, they are basically from the same makers as BB's OCBDs -- and they make all the shirts for Ratio Clothing, not just those. So you get to support US manufacturing. They are made on a factory system so it's not true bespoke or anything, but the "secret" options (including the long roll unlined BD I mentioned) are numerous. You just have to ask by email. They will also make a shirt to your desired dimensions if you already have one that fits perfect.

My only problem is that the Ratio Slim Fit is very close fitting, as in Ralph-Lauren-model so. I don't find that all too comfortable personally. But you can email and ask for the finished dimensions of a Classic Fit in your size. From what I understand, it's still closer fitting than any other brand's Classic/Traditional/Regular.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Fading Fast said:


> Virtue Aesthetic, If this is your first one, I think BB is a good place to start as many others here have said - they were the original and still make a fine version. To FL Cracka's point, the regular cut BB OCBD is a very full cut, the slim fit is, IMHO, what a "normal" fit is elsewhere and the extra-slim fit is what slim is elsewhere.
> 
> What I am trying to say (and doing a good job at it) is that a Brooks Brother's slim fit OCBD is not so much a slim fit as a not overly baggy fit. If you can, go in and try them on first, but if ordering on the web, I thought this information might help you.


I'd also add something that I think is very important: *order a size up*. Contrary to what the BB sales staff may tell you, their must-iron OCBDs _will shrink_, even if washed in cold water and air dried (in contrast, the _non-iron_ OCBDs are pre-shrunk and _will not_ shrink). I learned this the hard way and ended up exchanging nearly all the must-iron BB OCBDs I purchased.

Normally, I wear a 16-33 slim fit. For the must-iron OCBDs, I order a 16.5-34, and they shrink in normal washing/air-drying to a nice fit for me. Ecru seems to shrink a little bit more. For that color, I'd order 17-34.

Hope this helps.


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## bigwordprof (Dec 30, 2011)

I think Ratio's classic fit is similar to the fit of a BB slim. I ordered one size larger in the chest and it fit about like a BB regular fit, which is what I prefer.

I added a locker loop, flap pocket, and the unlined long roll collar. These small details make for a really unique product.


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## straw sandals (Apr 14, 2010)

One more vote for Kamakura Shirts. If you like a slimmer fit, Kamakura delivers. The shirting fabric is beautiful, with mother of pearl buttons, a nice collar roll, and great details. Shirts are $79 and they never go on sale. If you can find a size that works for you, I heartily recommend them.


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

^Kamakura does make a nice slimmer OCBD


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## filfoster (Aug 23, 2011)

FLCracka said:


> BB is the answer to your question. I prefer the Slim Fit version.


My answer as well. I have grown to embrace the BB no-iron (mis-named: You still need to) in slim fit. To the OP, I guess the gold standard is the BB traditional fit, all cotton.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

gamma68 said:


> I'd also add something that I think is very important: *order a size up*. Contrary to what the BB sales staff may tell you, their must-iron OCBDs _will shrink_, even if washed in cold water and air dried (in contrast, the _non-iron_ OCBDs are pre-shrunk and _will not_ shrink). I learned this the hard way and ended up exchanging nearly all the must-iron BB OCBDs I purchased.
> 
> Normally, I wear a 16-33 slim fit. For the must-iron OCBDs, I order a 16.5-34, and they shrink in normal washing/air-drying to a nice fit for me. Ecru seems to shrink a little bit more. For that color, I'd order 17-34.
> 
> Hope this helps.


I wish BB had suggested that I order a size up instead of my measured size. (They actually insisted that I buy the measured size.) I'm now left with shirts that are a bit tight in the collar and some that are short in the sleeve. J. Press had the good sense to suggest that I buy one half- size up in the collar. This is a fine illustration of the distinction between a knowledgeable salesman at Press and a clerk at BB - that is to say, one that only operates a cash register and places merchandise inside of a bag.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Brio1 said:


> I wish BB had suggested that I order a size up instead of my measured size. (They actually insisted that I buy the measured size.) I'm now left with shirts that are a bit tight in the collar and some that are short in the sleeve. J. Press had the good sense to suggest that I buy one half- size up in the collar. This is a fine illustration of the distinction between a knowledgeable salesman at Press and a clerk at BB - that is to say, one that only operates a cash register and places merchandise inside of a bag.


I'd wager a bet that the forum members who responded to this thread are more knowledgable about BB OCBDs than the average mall-based BB sales associate. Or manager, for that matter.


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## sarakali (May 19, 2013)

I am actually a huge proponent of J. Press OCBDs, which don't seem to be discussed as much. Although the voluminous nature of BB is loved by many here, J. Press makes a much trimmer shirt that appears more understated than its cousin. I also love the flap pocket as a detail that can only be recognized by connoisseurs. Unfortunately, it seems they are quickly moving to producing imported shirts over made-in-USA ones, a huge hit to the trad movement.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

^
I also like them (and the flap pocket), but their oxford cloth fabric appears to be coarser wearing than BB. However, perhaps Press shirts will last longer, longevity is especially important now that they are moving to overseas production.


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## mrfixit (Dec 30, 2012)

where is the ratio popover?


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## boatswaindog (Nov 18, 2010)

I would agree that BB is a good place to start (especially during the twice annual sale when shirts go for under 3 Jacksons). Since my wife took over the laundry and hangs the shirts to dry on hangars shrinkage has not been an issue. Person enlargement is an occasional issue.


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## Jfrazi2 (Apr 16, 2013)

My vote is for Gitman.


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## UnivStripe (Mar 6, 2013)

BB has their Made in USA OCBD shirts on sale for $66.50 USD each until June 15, 2014. Five different solid colors and two different University Stripe colors in four different fits with sized neck and sleeve lengths. 100% Supima cotton. What off the rack shirt could be a better value?


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up, UnivStripe. I may stock up if funds allow...


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^+1....and to that end:

4 pale blue
2 white 
1 blue stripe


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Four of the same colour? By "stock up" I meant one of each. :tongue2:


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

^^^That does sound like a good deal 

and Jovan - I didn't know you were British!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^LOL. It helps to have the kids raised and out of the house. With just the wife and I left, there's some money available to spend on us! However, since the OCBD Popovers I recently received from O'Connell's and Bill's are blue, perhaps I could reduce the number of blue shirts to two and supplement those two with the popovers...yes, no?


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

gamma68 said:


> I'd wager a bet that the forum members who responded to this thread are more knowledgable about BB OCBDs than the average mall-based BB sales associate. Or manager, for that matter.


Yes, like my friend that was in retail sales management (awhile) stated that today's companies want employees that focus on sales know-how than "technical" details. I know that this appears to be counterintuitive, but it is the way of the beast now. They just want people that can sell the newest product(s). How often has one purchased an item that the salesperson does not happen to own and therefore truly recommend themselves? Think about it...


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

tigerpac said:


> ^^^That does sound like a good deal
> 
> and Jovan - I didn't know you were British!


Canadian, but close enough.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

UnivStripe said:


> BB has their Made in USA OCBD shirts on sale for $66.50 USD each until June 15, 2014. Five different solid colors and two different University Stripe colors in four different fits with sized neck and sleeve lengths. 100% Supima cotton. What off the rack shirt could be a better value?


Are these the must-iron OCBDs?


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## UnivStripe (Mar 6, 2013)

Yes. IMO, this is a requirement for a shirt to be considered a 'quintessential' trad OCBD. Although, I cannot say that mine are always ironed.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

There is also one in excellent condition available right now on the Thrift Exchange thread....:rolleyes2:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...d-Thrift-Store-Exchange&p=1561966#post1561966


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## tigerpac (Jan 23, 2014)

Pfft, first vestigial "u's" next you'll tell me we should change to the metric system just because its objectively better (and it is) 



Jovan said:


> Canadian, but close enough.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I mostly grew up here, but my family kept using many of the spellings.


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## PG63 (Dec 23, 2011)

Mercer and Sons makes OCBDs the way Brooks Brothers used to -- unlined full-roll collar, six-button front, full cut. You can get the body on a Mercer a little trimmer than standard -- for example, you can get a 16.5 collar put on a 16 body.


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

UnivStripe said:


> BB has their Made in USA OCBD shirts on sale for $66.50 USD each until June 15, 2014. Five different solid colors and two different University Stripe colors in four different fits with sized neck and sleeve lengths. 100% Supima cotton. What off the rack shirt could be a better value?


Does this discount stack with the AAAC card?


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## Himself (Mar 2, 2011)

sarakali said:


> I am actually a huge proponent of J. Press OCBDs, which don't seem to be discussed as much. Although the voluminous nature of BB is loved by many here, J. Press makes a much trimmer shirt that appears more understated than its cousin. I also love the flap pocket as a detail that can only be recognized by connoisseurs. Unfortunately, it seems they are quickly moving to producing imported shirts over made-in-USA ones, a huge hit to the trad movement.


I have a couple of these. While I like the cut, and the fabric, the collar and cuffs are too unnaturally stiff to be "quintessential OCBD" -- even if the Press brand is closest to 'quintessential trad."

BB is hard to beat in this dept., especially on sale.


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## sjk (Dec 1, 2007)

UnivStripe said:


> What off the rack shirt could be a better value?


Answer- The BB OCBD during the post-Christmas sale. (If the AAAC 15% discount stacks here, then the price during this sale will be comparable.)

I picked up two Kamakuras with very interesting stripings, which even matched on the shoulders! But the collar and cuffs are fused and a bit too stiff for my taste to warrant buying any more unless the color, pattern or stripe was unique.

Mercer is still the best shirt, although you definitely will pay for the quality.


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## Virtue Aesthetics (Jul 31, 2013)

You guys just can't stay away from this thread huh! Loving all the feedback 

Here's a follow up question, what of the higher end model from BB? as pictured below:


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Virtue Aesthetics said:


> You guys just can't stay away from this thread huh! Loving all the feedback
> 
> Here's a follow up question, what of the higher end model from BB? as pictured below:


Your opening question went right to the Holly of Hollies of Trad dressing. If the Trad guys from this forum ever got together in a bar, this questions could spark a full evening of conversation.

As to the higher end model, you are now no longer in OCBD land, so the passions and interest will ease. As to the shirt itself, my experience is that these high-end BB shirts are nice, but even on sale (as this one is) they are over priced. I would (without specifically remember having seen and felt this one) only get interested in it in the low $100 area (which might happen post Father's Day or at the end of season sale).


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

What? $278 regular price and they have the stones to pull that adjustable cuff bulls***? I am aghast.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Jovan said:


> What? $278 regular price and they have the stones to pull that adjustable cuff bulls***? I am aghast.


Which goes to my point that it is probably a low $100 shirt in reality. This is why BB bugs me - they are inconsistent in quality and sizing in general and, then, they put ridiculously high prices on some nice quality goods just so they can mark them down a lot to make them feel like great bargains.

This is why I respect Ralph Lauren more. In general, they offer better value at full price and only have a limited number of sales as they believe - and by proof of their successful model - can sell enough goods at full price to repeat customers that they don't have to do the games that BB does. The same goes for Paul Stuart - it is a premium product at a premium price with limited sales. Brooks Brothers - when they play in the big leagues with Ralph and Paul Stuart - offer an overpriced / inferior product that is meant to be sold on discount. I find it insulting to me the customer.


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## alkydrinker (Apr 24, 2012)

Jovan said:


> What? $278 regular price and they have the stones to pull that adjustable cuff bulls***? I am aghast.


Pardon my ignorance, but does "adjustable cuffs" refer to the fact that the shirt has 2 buttons at the cuff? Is having just one considered better, perhaps with the assumption you might have the button moved to fit your wrist perfectly? I have never read anything on this matter before.


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## Virtue Aesthetics (Jul 31, 2013)

Why isn't it an OCBD? Is the french placket a dead-giveaway? 

Well anyway, I've been discouraged. I think I'll put the extra money towards some nice dress trousers. Saw a nice looking brown pair, 'BrooksCool' or something shifty like that. Was slightly put off by the description- "of natural and man-made fibres" so I'll have to check them out in person and read the tag -__-


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Virtue Aesthetics said:


> Why isn't it an OCBD? Is the french placket a dead-giveaway?
> 
> Well anyway, I've been discouraged. I think I'll put the extra money towards some nice dress trousers. Saw a nice looking brown pair, 'BrooksCool' or something shifty like that. Was slightly put off by the description- "of natural and man-made fibres" so I'll have to check them out in person and read the tag -__-


Sorry you're feeling discouraged. I don't think you can really go wrong buying a Brooks Brothers 132Q. That's a quintessential OCBD. It looks nice, feels nice, becomes softer with each wearing...and you can buy one at 30% off now. In fact, I think I'll stop in my local BB tonight and buy another.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes, it does. It's a cheap way to sell the same 33" or 35" sleeve shirt to a guy who requires them an inch shorter, but tightening the cuff isn't really an optimal solution in reality.

If you buy shirts with exact sleeve lengths (increments of one inch), you shouldn't really need the button moved.


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## Virtue Aesthetics (Jul 31, 2013)

Oh no don't be sorry at all, I've been saved a good deal of buyers remorse


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## alkydrinker (Apr 24, 2012)

Jovan said:


> Yes, it does. It's a cheap way to sell the same 33" or 35" sleeve shirt to a guy who requires them an inch shorter, but tightening the cuff isn't really an optimal solution in reality.
> 
> If you buy shirts with exact sleeve lengths (increments of one inch), you shouldn't really need the button moved.


oh, weird. I never thought that the theory behind putting 2 buttons on a cuff is a compensation so that the sleeve can be tightened down on men for whom the sleeves are too long. I actually appreciate the 2 button adjustable cuffs because my wrists are on the thin side and I like the cuffs to have a close fit. I always move the button on every shirt I buy that only has the one button so that the cuff will be tighter.

*Edit:* I _have _noticed that "sport shirts" tend to have 2 buttons, whereas "dress shirts" have just 1. That's how LE does it. So I guess that goes with what Jovan is saying since sport shirts tend to come in s,m,l,xl sizing.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Virtue Aesthetics said:


> Oh no don't be sorry at all, I've been saved a good deal of buyers remorse


I doubt you'd have remorse after a BB 132Q purchase, but to each his own.


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## Virtue Aesthetics (Jul 31, 2013)

I think there's been a misunderstanding. Its the more expensive shirt from the link that I posted that I am no longer interested in


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## Ensiferous (Mar 5, 2012)

gamma68 said:


> I don't think you can really go wrong buying a Brooks Brothers 132Q.....I think I'll stop in my local BB tonight and buy another.


Agreed, gamma68!

You are fortunate to find them in your local BB; I must order them online.

One tip regarding the venerable 132Q is to size up 1/2" in the neck.


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## gamma68 (Mar 24, 2013)

Ensiferous said:


> Agreed, gamma68!
> 
> You are fortunate to find them in your local BB; I must order them online.
> 
> One tip regarding the venerable 132Q is to size up 1/2" in the neck.


My local BB only stocks a few. The sales associate there didn't even know what I was talking about. But I wind up getting free shipping anyway since they order it for me. And I've learned to size up .5 in the neck and 1.0 in the sleeve due to shrinkage.


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## jlykos (Mar 11, 2014)

Brooks Brothers Black Fleece is the best that I have tried. The shirt itself is the same as the regular BB must-iron, but the fit is so much better, even with the goofy sizing matrix. It has some added details like MOP buttons and a locker loop, but those are not essential items to me.

I had a Mercer and even after sizing down two sizes and tapering the body an additional 2", it still fit me terribly.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

jlykos, "fit terribly" is a matter of opinion. Some people like a full cut shirt, others don't. In my opinion though, thinner guys are better served with something along the lines of BB's Slim Fit (which really is just a _trimmer_ fit).

I prefer something a bit closer than that -- Ledbury's fit is probably the best slim fit I've tried off the rack. Unfortunately they don't make what I'd consider a true OCBD -- that is non-fused interlining, chest pocket, back pleats, etc. But I have used the fit as a basis to order my Ratio Clothing shirts with the same dimensions. It works quite well.


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