# Warning - Stick on soles



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

There has been a discussion recently which strayed into the merits of Topys - I think a brand name for what we over here call " stick on soles". There seems to be a general, though not universal, view here on AAAC that Topys are a good thing and that shoe manufactuers are going over the top by warning us against applying them to our lovely leather soled shoes. Most of us seem to think it does no harm and recently members have posted wonderful pictures of G&G shoes with Topys stuck on by Dean Girling himself - thus proving the merits of the addition and blowing out of the water any criticism of this device.

So, the impression was given that Tony Gaziano and Dean Girling approve of stick-on-soles. NOT TRUE. I am not saying anyone lied, rather it was the impression given.

I spoke to Dean Girling two days ago to place an order and asked him about this. I told him I had seen the pictures on here and SF. He said to me, and I quote " Adding Topys to our shoes is a big "no no" for us. We strongly advise customers against it. Yes we have done it for some customers because they insisted they wanted the Topys adding. We are here to meet our customers wishes, but we certainly don't always approve of them!" I went on to ask him why and he gave the usual reasons that I have heard from Church's and Edward Green's - that they add 1/16th of an inch to the sole - thus unbalancing it and they stop the sole leather breathing thus causing it to crack. This won't be obvious because a rubber sheet is stuck on top but it will affect the performance of the shoe. Dean went on to say that water is not nearly so harmful to leather soles as some of us would beleive ( including me until this conversation) and he said that if customers want a shoe with great grip and for very wet weather he advises a shoe with a Danite sole not adding a Topy to a leather sole.

Of course, the customer is king and Gaziano and Girling are kings of customer service so they will bend over backwards to meet our requirements, but that is not the same thing as approving of what we ask for.

So , its official - Gaziano and Girling DO NOT APPROVE OF STICK ON SOLES. :teacha:


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

Thanks, thats great info & clarification.


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## jeph (Feb 16, 2006)

I believe that stick on soles are harmful to the whole shoe, because they "unbalance" the climate in the shoe. The upper leather is better preserved when the whole shoe can breathe, and I think that a shoe with Dainite soles generally looks worn out quicker because of this.

But that is just my opinion.

jeph


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

I understand what the G&G guys are saying, but on the other hand not all of us spend out days padding about on office carpeting, never walking very far. I need my shoes to last over long walking distances, even my good shoes, and water+pavement wears out soles very quickly.

Also, I think the "balance" thing is a bit bogus, since I've seen so many shoes with flat heels too high for anything other than sitting in leather office chairs.

DocD


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

*Nonsense.*

The only reason you are against Topys is that without Topys shoes wear out quicker, and need replacement, therefore forcing us to purchase more shoes, and enhance your profit statement.

That is all there is to it.

Adding 1/16 of an inch to the sole does nothing to unbalance the shoe. What does this mean, unbalanced? Shoes are never balanced. The heel is always heavier, the foot is always applying weight in an uneven way while a person walks.



> The upper leather is better preserved when the whole shoe can breathe, and I think that a shoe with Dainite soles generally looks worn out quicker because of this.


A shoe does not breath through the bottom. Nor does it expell hot air from said place, the same can not be said of several posts above.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Hi Bogdanoff - you obviously feel strongly about this. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and that's fine. I was merely reporting what Dean Girling said to me - and he's a man who's prepared to put Topys on if you insist - unlike other shoemakers.

As for me, I understand what Dean Girling is saying and it makes sense to me. On a personal experience note, I found in the days I added stick on soles that my feet grew much hotter in my shoes and sweated much more as a result. So I think there is something in the line of thinking that says the shoe breathes downwards as well as upwards if the leather sole is left bare.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

PS - the shoe is unbalanced if nothing is added to the heel - you changed the proportions of the shoe - here in the UK nothing is added to the heel when a Topy is added to the sole - as per the pictures of G&Gs with Topys on AAAC.


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## DunninLA (Aug 17, 2007)

Haven't used them, but just two obervations --

I agree shoes are not balanced to begin with, and in fact adding Topys might *better* balance the shoe from it's unbalanced starting point

The reason Dainite or other thickly soled shoes (double soled or even triple leather soles (i.e. Weston Chasse) show wear sooner (if made with leather balanced for single soles) is that the upper is put under 2-3 times as much strain in bending the sole while walking. Has nothing to do with breathing. For this reason double or triple soled shoes are usually designed with thicker leather in the uppers (certainly my Weston demi Chasse #598 are).


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

Will the shoe be unbalanced when 1/16th of an inch of leather is worn OFF the sole? And just how gas-permeable is a leather sole plus insole? Not very, I would say.

The only argument I can see against Topys is that there is a sort of conflict of fundamental values - traditional methods and materials versus modern synthetic polymers and chemical glue (shudder), rather like using plastic stoppers instead of corks for fine wine. I think this is a repectable, though irrational, argument, but I find the advantages of Topys outweigh the uneasiness I feel about 'defiling' my leather soles.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I would gladly not refrain from Topys if I didn't need to resole every few months without them.


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## walterb (Dec 24, 2006)

I have never used Topys but I am strongly considering trying them. I think Bogdanoff is right on. I think you can make an aesthetic argument against them or a shoe purist/tradition argument, but I think it is complete nonsense to talk about shoe balance and respiration.


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## nikwik (Oct 29, 2005)

Rich said:


> The only argument I can see against Topys is that there is a sort of conflict of fundamental values - traditional methods and materials versus modern synthetic polymers and chemical glue (shudder), rather like using plastic stoppers instead of corks for fine wine.


Correct. If Tricker´s didn´t put a rubber sole on in the first place who am I to...

Sollution: https://www.beltoutlet.com/torurash.html


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

*So what are we saying?*

I think the different views on this subject are interesting and those who favour Topys certainly make a good case, it is just that Dean Girling's case is also good.

So what are we saying? I started this thread to tell you all what Dean Girling said. Logic suggests that those arguing for Topys are saying one of a number of things about Dean Girling:

1. He is mistaken - maybe due to sentimental attachement to leather soles.

OR

2. He is plain wrong - he doesn't know what he is talking about.

OR

3. He is a liar because he is only after your repeat business.

None of the above seem likely to me - maybe you guys favour alternative number 3 - but those who have dealt with him all agree he is an honest kind of man - and I agree.

Lets be rigorous here - what is it to be? We cannot hear views of a well respected shoemaker like Dean Girling and just either ignore him or say we just don't agree with him.

I guess at the end of the day we all must make our own minds up but I'd rather go with the advice of the experts than with the views of people like myself who have never worked with the sharp or blunt end of a pig's bristle!


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Leather man said:


> ...Lets be rigorous here - what is it to be? We cannot hear views of a well respected shoemaker like Dean Girling and just either ignore him or say we just don't agree with him.
> 
> I guess at the end of the day we all must make our own minds up but I'd rather go with the advice of the experts than with the views of people like myself who have never worked with the sharp or blunt end of a pig's bristle!


Personally I would rather think for myself and in this case, I do disagree with the "expert!" In those cases I have put Topys on shoes it has been more to tame a wild (read that as hard and slippery varnished leather) sole, more than as an inclement weather equilizer. Tingley provides us with rubber overshoes to serve that purpose. As for Dean Girling, he creates as handsome a shoe, as may be found on a man's foot and I respect that skill but, will not abdicate my perogative to make a reasonable decision as the consumer of his product.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm sure it causes some extra strain - take a bologna constructed shoe and you'll see a Topy makes the shoe stiffer, so there is more strain on the upper in flexing it - but I can't justify spending hundreds each year on resoling when I've had shoes with Topys go 5 years and counting.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

I can respect a person who is honest enough to have the balls to say " I disagree with the expert" - and make his own decision. What I cannot accept is that this is a "reasonable" decision - on what grounds is it "reasonable" to go against the advice of a man who knows more about shoes than we will ever know in a life time?


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Leather man said:


> What I cannot accept is that this is a "reasonable" decision - on what grounds is it "reasonable" to go against the advice of a man who knows more about shoes than we will ever know in a life time?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic, consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, *but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. 
*

The case presented so far against Topys has been weak while the their benefits described above are significant enough to merit consideration.

An aesthetic argument, sure. But showing the soles of your feet has never been very good manners no matter how well crafted the bottom of the shoe.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

There is an 'All-Weather-Sole' produced by the German tannery Rendenbach, which is a leather sole with a top layer of rubber vulcanised onto the sole. That is treated as one unit and gets sawn into place. Once the rubber layer has worn away, a new sole (leather and rubber) needs to be put on.










https://www.ludwigreiter.com/ - Musterbuch

Church's has in his current program a number of models featuring this type of sole. Down at the waist, the rubber is recessed into the leather and a visible row of stitching goes all around the leather and rubber section.

That sole described by Saint Crispin, might be the same type of sole.



> *GG3* _This all-weather sole has a lightly ribbed rubber sole. The rubber sole is glued to the leather mid/outsole over its whole area. At the front of the shoe the glue is reinforced with an additional row of brass nails. In order to prevent moisture penetrating the shoe on the face of the heel, the rubber sole is inserted into it in the form of a wedge. The edges around the ankle cannot be rounded in this case. Optically this variation still looks like a leather sole but it offers protection from wet shoes and thus cold feet. Because of the full-area gluing the sole is always a little stiffer than a leather sole of the same thickness._
> 
> https://www.saint-crispins.com/e_pret/index3.html


Also here, the 'Commando Sole' used by Alden:

https://www.alden-of-carmel.com/


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## shoefan (Oct 30, 2003)

This topic recurs every so often. 

In terms of a shoe being made 'unbalanced,' this is technically correct -- a shoe is made with on a last with a specific heel height in mind, such that the heel sits flat relative to the forefoot/joint line. A Topy does, in essence, render the heel height too low and shifts the exact location of the forefoot that strikes the ground, thus making the shoe 'imperfectly balanced,' relative to how it should be made/balanced. However, as noted by others, soles wear down, as do heels, and other things change as well (e.g. the cork filling between the outer and insole can become compressed) so the change of 1/16th of an inch in sole thickness seems to me to be no big deal.

At the end of the day, I would be willing to bet that NO ONE has run a controlled experiment on the effect of Topys on shoe performance. Therefore, IMO, both the advocates and the opponents are basing their opinions on logic and conjecture, rather than fact. Thus, I personally would give Dean's opinions only limited weight in my decision-making on this topic. However, it is the manufacturer's prerogative to void any warranty on a product altered by the addition of something like a Topy.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Bogadoff ,while your point about an appeal to authority re logic might be technically correct - I don't know for sure, it is a quote from Wikepedia after all and don't believe everything you read on there - nevertheless in the world of an ordinary guy if someone who knows everything there is to know on a subject and also has years of hands on experience of that subject tells me ( us) what he knows on a topic intimately related to his area of expertise, I for one am going to listen to him and take him seriously - and even follow his advice  Wow that was a long sentence! 

Here's what I do know from my own experience. Topys make leather soles last for ever - you just replace the Topy. This is good and avoids costly repairs. BUT Topys also make one's feet sweat much more thus shorting the life of the leather linings and making for an uncomfortable experience. Therefore I believe the whole breathability issue has validity. Seaching fora has lead me to discover I am not the only person whose feet perspire a lot more when Topys are added. For me this is experimental proof that Dean Girling is not making it up when he says that adding a Topy stops the shoe breathing through the sole.

I spoke to Edward Greens and asked them " If stick on soles prevent the shoe breathing through the sole why do you offer rubber soles?" The answer was that because a rubber sole has stiching around it like a leather sole ( topys block the stiching) the shoe can still breath through the sole, not as effectively as a leather sole but it still can breath. I am not 100% convinced by that myself because my feet perspire more with Danite soles too - though I have to say, not as much as my couple of pairs of shoe that have Topys on.

The combination sole point is interesting and thanks for posting that one. I would guess that the EG argument defending Danite soles would apply to that one too - and indeed I have a couple of Church's with that kind of sole - actually my feet breath better in the combination sole than in full Danites.

I must say I have some sympathy with the person on Style Forum,( cannot remember who it was - more than one person in fact) who said " If you cannot afford, or don't want to afford, having good shoes rebuilt then you shouldn't buy expensive shoes in the first place" 

It sounds a bit extreme but actually I agree with that. The man I bought my first Church's from said the same to me - we discussed Topys then and he said " If you can afford to buy Church's shoes you can afford to send them back to Church's to be treated properly."

Having had three cobblers cock up my Church's shoes I would never send them, my Greens G&G & C&Js anywhere but the factory again.


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

Leather man said:


> I must say I have some sympathy with the person on Style Forum,( cannot remember who it was - more than one person in fact) who said " If you cannot afford, or don't want to afford, having good shoes rebuilt then you shouldn't buy expensive shoes in the first place"


By this logic, though, why sweat the possibility that Topys might, maybe, possibly have some negative effect on your shoes? I can see not liking Topys because you think they make your feet hot, or you don't like how they look, but to fret about the chance they might damage your shoes in some way that can't be seen seems like over analysis to me. If you like 'em, get 'em, and if you don't, don't.

Just my 2 cents.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Leather man said:


> I must say I have some sympathy with the person on Style Forum,( cannot remember who it was - more than one person in fact) who said " If you cannot afford, or don't want to afford, having good shoes rebuilt then you shouldn't buy expensive shoes in the first place"


The way and amount I walk, I can get 3 months tops out of non-Topy'd leather soles even though I use a 5 shoe rotation. So, I can either not use Topys, or at the same cost buy a new pair of C&J's every 3 months...that if you can afford good shoes you can afford not to use Topys argument sorta falls apart there, doesn't it?


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Leather man said:


> ...As for me, I understand what Dean Girling is saying and it makes sense to me. On a personal experience note, I found in the days I added stick on soles that my feet grew much hotter in my shoes and sweated much more as a result. So I think there is something in the line of thinking that says the shoe breathes downwards as well as upwards if the leather sole is left bare.


I'm not sure why but, this point really intrigues me. Generally our feet perspire more than other parts of our bodies because we wrap them in (comparatively) tight leather cocoons and impede the boby's natural cooling process. I read somewhere (and admittedly am unable to locate the reference at this point) that temperatures inside ones shoes can rise well above the ambient air temperature and therefore cause our feet to try even harder to cool off. Hot air rises, cool air falls. The evaporative process releases moisture (Up) into the air, not down. Why are we so quick to abandon basic scientific understandings we learned in our grade school science classes, as we accept the assertion our shoes respirate downward through significantly more dense soling materials, rather than upward, through the more porus leather of the shoe's uppers?


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Leather man said:


> BUT Topys also make one's feet sweat much more thus shorting the life of the leather linings and making for an uncomfortable experience. Therefore I believe the whole breathability issue has validity. Seaching fora has lead me to discover I am not the only person whose feet perspire a lot more when Topys are added. For me this is experimental proof that Dean Girling is not making it up when he says that adding a Topy stops the shoe breathing through the sole.


I just don't buy the "breathing through the sole" thing, despite the eminence of Girling and others. He should know, better than any of us, that the sweat/perspiration will have to pass through several layers of heavily treated leathers, a layer of cork, and some amount of shoe glue. I suppose it's possible, but I think Eagle may be on to something with the uppers being more permeable.

My personal experience is that my feet sweat in tight shoes, but not in less-tight shoes, irrespective of topy or no-topy. Frankly, my shoes which don't cause sweating are my older shoes which have been heavily worn in and don't resist my feet anymore. I suspect most "sweating" issues come from people wearing shoes which are very snug and don't allow the foot to expand and contract over the day, nor flex when walking. But this is a heretical view, since the received wisdom is to wear shoes which are form-fitted like a spandex leotard...

So for every person who has sweaty feet with topys, you've got someone like me who doesn't have sweaty feet with topys. Maybe there is no hard-and-fast rule and everyone's feet and circumstances are different. Crazy idea, huh?



Leather man said:


> I must say I have some sympathy with the person on Style Forum, (cannot remember who it was - more than one person in fact) who said " If you cannot afford, or don't want to afford, having good shoes rebuilt then you shouldn't buy expensive shoes in the first place"
> 
> It sounds a bit extreme but actually I agree with that. The man I bought my first Church's from said the same to me - we discussed Topys then and he said " If you can afford to buy Church's shoes you can afford to send them back to Church's to be treated properly."


That viewpoint does stroke the ego, admittedly.



shoefan said:


> In terms of a shoe being made 'unbalanced,' this is technically correct -- a shoe is made with on a last with a specific heel height in mind, such that the heel sits flat relative to the forefoot/joint line. A Topy does, in essence, render the heel height too low and shifts the exact location of the forefoot that strikes the ground, thus making the shoe 'imperfectly balanced,' relative to how it should be made/balanced. However, as noted by others, soles wear down, as do heels, and other things change as well (e.g. the cork filling between the outer and insole can become compressed) so the change of 1/16th of an inch in sole thickness seems to me to be no big deal.


Girling and other shoemakers can perhaps explain why some of their shoes have heels which are an inch tall, when in fact the human foot evolved to walk flat. Roman soldiers marched thousands of miles over Europe in sandals, and while they no doubt complained about all manner of things I doubt they spent any time pining for one inch heels and steel shanks. Someone will have a clever, snappy answer to this, but I'm still right.



shoefan said:


> At the end of the day, I would be willing to bet that NO ONE has run a controlled experiment on the effect of Topys on shoe performance. Therefore, IMO, both the advocates and the opponents are basing their opinions on logic and conjecture, rather than fact. Thus, I personally would give Dean's opinions only limited weight in my decision-making on this topic.


I think research exists, since GEOX always touts it in their advertising. However, any studies which _have_ been conducted probably did not use Edward Greens or C&Js as test subjects...

DocD


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

eagle2250 said:


> I'm not sure why but, this point really intrigues me. Generally our feet perspire more than other parts of our bodies because we wrap them in (comparatively) tight leather cocoons and impede the boby's natural cooling process. I read somewhere (and admittedly am unable to locate the reference at this point) that temperatures inside ones shoes can rise well above the ambient air temperature and therefore cause our feet to try even harder to cool off. Hot air rises, cool air falls. The evaporative process releases moisture (Up) into the air, not down. Why are we so quick to abandon basic scientific understandings we learned in our grade school science classes, as we accept the assertion our shoes respirate downward through significantly more dense soling materials, rather than upward, through the more porus leather of the shoe's uppers?


Hi Eagle - I am a science graduate so maybe according to Bogadoff's quote from Wikepedia you shouldn't listen to me, however the fact is that we are talking about moisture laden air here not normal warm air that might circulate in a building. Therefore this is "heavy air" as it holds a lot of water. If you did a test on the weight of dry air versus moist air you would find that the moist air is heavier.

However even more significantly we are not talking about just air here - we are talking about H2O itself - it is water that is penetrating the leather uppers and soles not only warm moist air. Therefore it is logical to suppose and indeed reasonable to suppose that it will penetrate downwards as well as upwards - both by wicking action.

The fact that many testify to their feet being much more comfortable in unadulterated leather sole than Topyed leather soles means that something is going on rather as described above and that perhaps some of us are in denial about this.:icon_smile_wink:

So, remember - it is water in the form of sweat that is doing the travelling and moist air, not dry air. But the more I think about it the more I suspect that whilst warm air has a chance of escaping though the laces and gaps around our ankle , sweat is absorbed into the leather all around the shoe - breathablilty and wickability beyond the insole must help here surely.


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

*rubber soled shoes*

I would never stick a rubber sole on a leather soled shoe for the reasons given by G&G-although I was once told at EG that they did little harm. I sometimes have an older pair of shoes repaired with a dainite or ridgeway.

*W_B*


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

The other issue is slippage. Many high end shoes are not made for walking on pavements or shiny wooden floors.

Topys are a performance enhancement that lets people who do not live the limo-to-red-carpet life all the time walk in their expensive shoes on solid ground.


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## Rich (Jul 10, 2005)

There is another good reason for using Topys: they keep thes soles dry. When leather soles get wet the water penetrates to some extent into the leather. In very cold weather this water can freeze (which I'm sure damages the leather) and gives you very cold feet. Cold coming up through the soles of leather shoes is very unpleasant.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Rich said:


> There is another good reason for using Topys: they keep thes soles dry. When leather soles get wet the water penetrates to some extent into the leather. .


When leather gets wet, and then crushed under your weight, it expands. The soles get mushy and no longer firm and no longer look good. Double that if you walk in snow.

Without topys leather soles shoes are prone to ruin in just one winter.


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

Bogdanoff said:


> Without topys leather soles shoes are prone to ruin in just one winter.


I've been following this thread with interest, as I've been pondering having my shoes topy'ed. Currently, each of my good shoes only gets worn once per week, and on rainy days, or on days where there is a good chance of rain, I break out my rubber-soled dress shoes. In winter, I wear winter boots and keep a couple of pairs in my office. Thus, the worst any of my shoes has faced thus far is being exposed to damp pavement - definitely not anything to worry about. But then again, my shoes are now the most expensive things I own, so I tend to baby them. 

However, my shoes tend to wear out fastest at the heels and the toes (as others have pointed out since I posted my collection), so maybe I weould be best served that way...

I think this is one area where we'll have to agree to disagree as a community. :icon_smile:

Geoff
Geoff


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

*purpose of thread*

Thanks Geoff for your interest - yes I've also read the responses with interest and clearly there are strongly held differing opinons - and they have been expressed well - which is the point of a forum I suppose.

No doubt, as Geoff has said, we will have to agree to differ. We all have our own opinions on the merits or otherwise of stick-on-soles.

However, what I would like to do is to express once again the purpose of this thread. It wasn't really to say what I thought of stick-on-soles - though the ensuing discussion has been vigorous and interesting. It was to correct an impression given on another thread. That thread was about Gaziano and Girling shoes. On that thread pictures of G&G shoes were shown that had Topys fitted by G&G. It was implied that G&G approved therefore of Topys. So, when I spoke to Dean Girling about an order I asked him about this - seeing as all other English shoemakers find stick-on-soles an anathema. Dean's exact reply was " They are a big no-no as far as we are concerned. We only fit them when customers insist. Leather soles are not harmed by water but if the weather is very wet indeed and a customer is worried about those kind of conditions then we always recommend having shoes with rubber soles made up ."

Now to my own thoughts. Once upon a time I had stick-on-soles fitted to leather soled shoes. But for 10 years I haven't - save for one old pair that Church's wouldn't repair anymore. In all that time I can honestly say I have never had a pair of leather soles "turn to mush" as one of our number has said.

Robert at EGs told me that we worry too much about the effects of rain on leather soles - they will stand up to a lot of hammer - especially if they are oak-bark tanned.


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

I can see both sides of this issue as I have shoes that I have designated as "high wear" that I have put Topy's onto, and I also have shoes that I save that I will not put Topy's onto.

My reasons for putting Topy's on varies. Usually shoes that are already older that I want to keep wearing quite often. I have 3 pairs of Florsheim Kenmoors (the old US made ones) that I have put Topy's onto. It's probably funny to put them onto shoes with thick double-soles like the Kenmoor, but I tend to take them with me on business trips (because they are SO comfortable), but on business trips I am down to a 2 shoe rotation for work so they get a lot of wear. Add to that the fact that they simply don't make Kenmoors in the US now, so I want to protect them as much as I can.

On the other hand, I like the aesthetic of shoes w/o Topy's, so don't tend to put them on until the shoe is older or a particularly high use shoe.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

This issue comes up on the two recognized style/clothing forums (AAAC and Style Forum) regularly--sort of like the perennial AE vs. Alden theme--so perhaps we should expect it every few months. In past threads on this topic, someone has typically asked the question about addition of Topys (or sounded the alarm, as here), and then the two relevant urban myths surface: (a) shoes won't "breathe" properly with Topys on the soles and (b) balance will be sacrificed. Following this, there is usually a flurry of posts that, either through logic or experience, question, and eventually put to rest, these myths. Most posters defend Topys, but a few remain convinced of the dangers. Then the issue is dropped...until the next thread, a few months or a year later. (This isn't meant as a put-down of Leather man, as he is simply reporting useful information from a highly-respected person in the field.)

Two and a half years ago, there was a good thread on this on Style Forum:

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=9988

In it, you will find a comment from Jcusey, who is the resident shoe expert on this forum, in which he expresses a well-informed opinion that the "breathability" issue is bunkum (or buncombe for you Brits). In addition, Jcusey informs us that addition of Topys is "standard procedure for Belgian Shoes: you buy them with a leather sole, wear them around for a while to scuff up the bottoms, and return them to the store for addition of a rubber coating." He then cites Ron Rider, who knows just about everything there is to know about shoes, to the effect that no harm can come to shoes from proper application of Topys. In addition, in the the same thread, we have Manton reporting that Tony Gaziano saw no real problem (other than aesthetic) with adding Topys to a pair of _bespoke_ shoes Manton had got from Tony when the latter was with EG. Further, Kabert reports that Vass put Topys on their shoes at Louis Boston's request. Thus, I would say that the "authority" factor (to which you appealed earlier, Leather man) is strongly on the side of finding no harm (and some benefit) in Topys or similar products.

In the present thread, there is evidence that some shoe manufacturers see little wrong with adding either rubber top-soles or using rubber soles period. Rendenbach, one of the premier makers (if not _the_ premier maker) of sole leather, actually makes a sole with a rubber top layer, as Bengal stripe (another of the forum shoe experts) points out. Would they be so inclined if, in time, the rubber coating would cause the leather underneath to deteriorate and rot? Both Church's and Saint Crispins evidently produce shoes with such soles.

I suspect that the issue with Dean Girling and other makers of really fine, and often bespoke, shoes is aesthetic. These makers have toiled valiantly to produce a perfect shoe, and this includes the sole. Probably the last thing these artisans want is to see an inexpensive layer of rubber glued to their beautifully crafted and finished sole work. I can certainly understand that, and I can see some individuals not wanting Topys on their shoes for purely aesthetic reasons. There are times when the bottom of our soles are visible (as when sitting with legs crossed), and a rubber sole visible for all to see might not sit well with some owners of really fine and expensive shoes.

But let's return to the two myths. I have had Topys added to most of my dress shoes for the past 25 years. I usually get the half-sole version which leaves about 2 - 2 1/2 inches of the sole uncovered at the waist--from the back of the Topy to the front of the heel. If the sole had to "breathe" (which I don't happen to believe is at all the case), couldn't it breathe through that portion of the sole? This is certainly a much larger area than the extremely tiny needle pricks caused by stitching through the rubber cover, something you, Leather man, were evidently told--by an EG rep--would provide some "breathing room." Further, the fact, as far as I know, that no one has demonstrated "rot" in soles with Topys added suggests, to me at least, that this doesn't occur. From my own experiences, with perhaps 40 pairs of Topy'd shoes over the years, no apparent damage has ever been evident. And none of these shoes, incidentally, has ever needed resoling, as the Topys have worn like iron, and, I suppose, if they got worn down a little, one could just replace the Topy.

Shoefan makes a couple of good points earlier in this thread. First, there is not, to my knowledge, any empirical evidence obtained by a controlled experiment that would definitively settle the issue of breathability. Thus, for the time being anyway, we will have to use field reports (and the fact, perhaps, that Topy has been around since 1935, which has provided plenty of time for the "sole destruction" phenomenon to have been revealed in the intervening years, had there ever been one), and these individual reports overwhelmingly argue against the destruction scenario brought about through an absence of breathability. Second, Shoefan's analysis of the balance issue puts it, I think, into a useful perspective. In the face of changes in the balance caused by uneven wear on soles and heels, a 1/16" addition to the height of the soles at the time of application seems trivial--indeed, something that at first would be hardly noticeable by anyone (actually completely _unnoticeable_ in my experience)--and might in fact, over time, actually correct an initial imbalance, as DunninLA suggests.

I haven't had the experience of my feet being warmer in shoes with Topys on them than before I had them Topy'd. (I sometimes wait for a while to get the smooth sole scuffed up a little to improve the bond of the Topy to the sole.) I think that Doctor Damage is absolutely right in suggesting that what causes a heat buildup is the tightness of the shoe, not what's on the bottom of the sole.

As noted, I have had most of my dress shoes Topy'd over the years, but I have refrained from this with my double- (and triple-) soled shoes and with my very best shoes that I wear infrequently, in the latter case on purely aesthetic grounds. Oh, one last thing: This argument that, 'if you can't afford an expensive resoling job (preferably from the factory--which, in the case of EG will set you back about $250 plus another $50 for shipping both ways)--then you shouldn't buy expensive shoes in the first place' is truly absurd, not to mention extremely condescending. Many forumers work hard to save their money in order to purchase really excellent shoes, and it's natural that they would want to protect their investment in any way they could. Topys are an excellent way to do this if you aren't put off by the aesthetics, or the cultural-clash factor noted earlier by Rich.

So, for what they're worth, those are my thoughts on this...until the next iteration of this topic in a few months' time....:icon_smile_wink:


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## Zubberah (Sep 29, 2003)

Bogdanoff said:


> *Nonsense.*
> 
> The only reason you are against Topys is that without Topys shoes wear out quicker, and need replacement, therefore forcing us to purchase more shoes, and enhance your profit statement.
> 
> ...


+1. Well said. For me, the advantages of Topy soles FAR outweigh any (perceived) disadvantages.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Thank you Roger for a thoughtful reply to the topic. This matter seems impossible to get to the bottom of which is why, I suspect, it keeps coming up. On the one hand the shoemakers in England insist that stick-on-soles are a bad thing for the shoes - I have also heard the view that they can cause the stiching through the welts to burst as well -. On the other hand we hear other European shoemakers use them quite happily. 
We also hear of many forum members who use them with no problems whatsoever, but others who either just don't use them or have had the kind of problems the manufacturers speak of ( agreed this is a tiny minority).

So, I don't know what to think. The views on both sides are strong - either because they are coming from people learned in the field of shoes, or because they make some sense - ie logical.

Perhaps the matter of sweating more in Topy'd shoes depends on how sweaty one's feet get in the first place - ie for some of us maybe a little difference is enough to tip the balance.

I suspect, as Roger says, that this topic will surface again sooner or later. The only thing that would settle it is a scientifically run test. I am not sure that is going to happen any time soon!


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## DocHolliday (Apr 11, 2005)

The evidence I find most convincing is that I've seen many pairs of extremely well-worn shoes with Topys. These are shoes that have clearly done their owners many years of service, and have the nicks, scratches and patina to prove it. When they shuffle off this mortal coil, it's usually because of the leather upper. Now, perhaps all the negative things about Topys are true -- maybe they don't breathe as well, maybe they aren't good for the sole. But if the net effect is so minor that the shoes must be replaced for reasons other than the soles, I just don't think the potential harm is worth worrying about.


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## Julio (Oct 21, 2007)

Leather man said:


> Hi Eagle - I am a science graduate so maybe according to Bogadoff's quote from Wikepedia you shouldn't listen to me, however the fact is that we are talking about moisture laden air here not normal warm air that might circulate in a building. Therefore this is "heavy air" as it holds a lot of water. If you did a test on the weight of dry air versus moist air you would find that the moist air is heavier.


Huh?

Molecular weight of water: 18 g/gmol
Molecular weight of air: ~28.9 g/gmol

Hence, moist air is lighter than dry air. Pretty counter-intuitive, but a 101 course finding...


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## janne melkersson (Feb 17, 2006)

"Girling and other shoemakers can perhaps explain why some of their shoes have heels which are an inch tall, when in fact the human foot evolved to walk flat."

An interesting question which need to be answered and her is my try.

If you make a pair of leather soled, leather stiffened shoes on a pair of lasts without heel and toe spring the shoe will simply not be made for walking. The last must be builded in such a way that the clients foot is held in place and the heel and toe spring helps to make it possible even though the shoe it self is pretty rigid. In Sweden we are walking in wood clogs which are totally rigid. If they did not have a heel hight of about two inches and a one inch toe spring they would be impossible for comfort walking.

The last is made for a specific heel hight and with a specific toe spring so by adding a 2-3 milimetre thick Topy only on the sole will change the conditions for the last and it will make the shoe unbalanced. If something is added to the sole the same thicknes must be added to the heel if you want to achieve the best result.

During the making process this is something that the maker has to be aware of, if not he could make the shoe unbalanced by adding to much cork on the insole before putting the sole on or he could make the heel to low or to high. If the heels are to low the cllient will have the feeling of walking uppward a slope and the other way round the foot will be sliding towards the toes like walking down hill.
All this is called last geometry and is something a last maker has to deal with on a daily basis.

Regarding water and sole leather I think that there is no need to be worried for water as long as the shoes could dry with the soles not on the floor but lying on the side. If they will be left with the soles to the floor there is a risk that they stard to get mouldy which will make them last shorter. 

Hope this helps

ps I forget to add that I have no problem to put a Topy or any other rubber on the sole as long as I can add the same thicknes to the heel


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Julio said:


> Huh?
> 
> Molecular weight of water: 18 g/gmol
> Molecular weight of air: ~28.9 g/gmol
> ...


And therefore the addition of the two in moist air is..........


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Leather man said:


> And therefore the addition of the two in moist air is..........


But doesn't a fix volume of gas always have the same number of molecules, so the molecules of water have to displace the molecules air making humid air less dense? I wasn't a science major or anything, so this is an honest question.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

marlinspike said:


> But doesn't a fix volume of gas always have the same number of molecules, so the molecules of water have to displace the molecules air making humid air less dense? I wasn't a science major or anything, so this is an honest question.


No. A fixed volume of gas under the same pressure always has the same moles of gas not the same number of molecules. Therefore if water is added to a fixed volume of gas in a fixed area you increase the pressure in the area because you add molecules but don't displace any ( given that the area is sealed _ and granted that is not exactly the case in a shoe but certainly it is confined ) - therefore as the pressure is different the number of moles can be different so one is adding mass to the original mass therefore the overall mass must be increased.

And all this from a discussion on Topys!:icon_smile_wink:


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

So, Janne - are you saying that Topys do absolutely no harm to a shoe as long as the same thickness is applied to the heel? I just want to clarify this as so many shoemakers say that it does all sorts of harm - from harming the stiching on the welts to causing the leather sole to sweat and eventually crack.


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## janne melkersson (Feb 17, 2006)

Leatherman,
Well, I was more thinking of the how to avoid the "unbalancing" thing when I said I had no problem with Topy soles.

The reason why I don't make my shoes with Topy's is that I can not see much benefit with them. If I would be afraid to get wet I would act consistently and stitch on a full rubber sole on top of the leather sole. 

That said, I don't believe in that the stitches will be harmed, or the sole will sweat and crack by the use of a rubber sole may it be full or half. I have not seen any such proof so far.


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## janne melkersson (Feb 17, 2006)

"If I would be afraid to get wet I would act consistently and stitch on a full rubber sole on top of the leather sole."

I forget to add yesterday that if you want to be on the safe side regarding water penetration from the bottom of the shoe no leather sole should be used at all. A full "stitch on" rubber sole like Danite, Ridgeway, Medway and other similar stuff will be the best.

Even though a thinn rubber sole half or full lenght, is put on the leather sole water will penetrate from the sole edges and from the uncovered waist area on half soles.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Thank you for the clarification Janne - that's really helpful.

LM


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

janne melkersson said:


> Even though a thinn rubber sole half or full lenght, is put on the leather sole water will penetrate from the sole edges and from the uncovered waist area on half soles.


This is why silicone sealant and then color dye, otherwise known as edge dressing, is applied judiciously around the edges of the shoe. Depending on the construction, a good leather half boot, rather than shoe, should be close to waterproof.

If, on the other hand, one is faced with sever weather conditions such as ice or snow, ice cleats, rather than Topys, are in order. 
Ice cleats can make even the thinnest of sole handle the most daring weather. Vibram makes a good pair.


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## Julio (Oct 21, 2007)

Leather man said:


> And therefore the addition of the two in moist air is..........


You don't add them. If you have air with 30% water (in volume), you can calculate its average molecular weight: .3*18 + .7*28.9 = 25.63 < 28.9

I know it's not the most authoritative site ever, but this will do the back up.


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## Julio (Oct 21, 2007)

Leather man said:


> No. A fixed volume of gas under the same pressure always has the same moles of gas not the same number of molecules.


Of course it does, for the same pressure and temperature. At standard conditions of P and T, a mole of gas occupies 22.4 L. A mole of N2 is 6.023E23 molecules of N2, a mole of Ar is 6.023E23 atoms of Ar, and mole of a "30% mixture of H2O in air" is 6.023E23*.3 molecules of H2O and 6.023E23*.7 "molecules" of air (i.e. 6.023E23*.7*.79 molecules of N2 and 6.023E23*.7*.21 molecules of O2)



Leather man said:


> Therefore if water is added to a fixed volume of gas in a fixed area you increase the pressure in the area because you add molecules but don't displace any ( given that the area is sealed _ and granted that is not exactly the case in a shoe but certainly it is confined ) - therefore as the pressure is different the number of moles can be different so one is adding mass to the original mass therefore the overall mass must be increased.


I can assure you the pressure in your feet is 0 barg (i.e. atmospheric), or *slightly* higher! It better be!


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Roger that. This post deserves to be made a sticky on this topic.



Roger said:


> This issue comes up on the two recognized style/clothing forums (AAAC and Style Forum) regularly--sort of like the perennial AE vs. Alden theme--so perhaps we should expect it every few months. In past threads on this topic, someone has typically asked the question about addition of Topys (or sounded the alarm, as here), and then the two relevant urban myths surface: (a) shoes won't "breathe" properly with Topys on the soles and (b) balance will be sacrificed. Following this, there is usually a flurry of posts that, either through logic or experience, question, and eventually put to rest, these myths. Most posters defend Topys, but a few remain convinced of the dangers. Then the issue is dropped...until the next thread, a few months or a year later. (This isn't meant as a put-down of Leather man, as he is simply reporting useful information from a highly-respected person in the field.)
> 
> Two and a half years ago, there was a good thread on this on Style Forum:
> 
> ...


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