# Barry Bonds - Still THE Man!



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Okay, I know all of you Barry Bonds haters are going to bring up the steroids, and that is my purpose for writing this - BRING IT UP!

Barry Bonds is now 42-years-old. His personal trainer, the one who allegedly provided the steroids, is in jail. He is being watched like no other player has ever been watched so it would be impossible for him to take steroids now. Yet . . . . . . bombs away! The balls are STILL flying out of the park! 

Clearly he is not using steroids now, if he ever was, so what is the explanation for all of the homeruns? The answer has always been that steroids do not increase bat speed and certainly do not give one eagle-eye vision, allowing for all the walks he gets. The bottom line is Barry Bonds has the best eye and fastest bat in baseball, still, and that is why he will break the record and deserves to break the record.

I was just wondering about all of theose Barry Bonds haters out there who do not seem to have an explanation for his current homerun spree? Hum?

As a lifelong San Francisco Giants fan, now enjoying the greatest baseball park in all of baseball after feezing to death most of my life at Candlestick Park, this is truly the best of times.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

yeah...ummmm...because he hasnt been taking designer steroids that were specifically made to be untrace-able all along right???

even if he wasnt on the juice...the dude is just a class A dickwad in real life...I think that probably plays no small part in why people dont like him...and yes it is true I've met him on several occasions, cant stand the jagoff...

IMHO...the real home run champ Hammerin Hank has the right POV for this whole mess...

and you want explainations...explain this to me...when Barry the fairy first came to SF he was a scrawny little punk...how did he get so big so quickly without the aid of HGH??? oh that's right...he was rubbing "flaxseed oil" on his balls and working out real hard right???

and um Gay-T and T park is far from the best in baseball...it's a little league field surrounded by a shopping mall of nothing but kiddie crap (video arcede???please...) I could rattle off 10 better right off the top of my head that I've been to...and I've only been to about 15 parks...


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## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

whomewhat,

Barry Bonds represents everything that is wrong with professional sports. And if he took steriods then he cheated. So if you want to celebrate a miserable human being (ask his some of his teammates or sports writers what they think of Bonds) who has tarnished the game then be my guest.


Karl


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Barry Bonds before:


Barry Bonds after:


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

He walks because he sees the ball so well . . . no steroids there. He also has the fastest bat through the strike zone . . . again, no steroids there. Personality has nothing to do with his baseball skills, which is the only thing I am talking about.

Oh, and Gabba Goul, if you had said there are a couple of other parks you like better, then I might have given your post some credibility, but it is pretty universally accepted in baseball cricles that Pac Bell is one of the best parks in baseball. Name the ten off the top of your head because I doubt anybody is going to agree with that. The Barry haters are still going to hate Barry, but Pac Bell is second to none, period!


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

10-The Stick-Old school, no kiddie BS
9-The Coliseum-see #10
8-The Kingdome-see #10
7-Safeco-New pretty high tech, still no kiddie BS
6-Petco-See #7
5-dodger Stadium-Bigger, better
4-Skydome-cleaner, bigger, better
3-Vetrans Stadium-See #10 + 1
2-Shea-Big, Rude, and nasty...just like the fans...still no kiddie crap...
1-Dolphins Stadium-Hands down the best ballpark in professional sports...

hope that list works for you...and I'm not sure what baseball circles you hang out in because Gay-T&T is basically the same as all the other new age little league parks tailor made for the juice-heads to go yard in...when you venture away from the bay area, you really dont hear anybody talking about how great it is...


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## obiwan (Feb 2, 2007)

Hank did it without the juice.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Who???


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

whomewhat said:


> He also has the fastest bat through the strike zone . . . again, no steroids there.


Yeah - its totally normal for a persons bat speed to increase from the age of 25 to 40........


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> He walks because he sees the ball so well . . . no steroids there. He also has the fastest bat through the strike zone . . . again, no steroids there. Personality has nothing to do with his baseball skills, which is the only thing I am talking about.
> 
> Oh, and Gabba Goul, if you had said there are a couple of other parks you like better, then I might have given your post some credibility, but it is pretty universally accepted in baseball cricles that Pac Bell is one of the best parks in baseball. Name the ten off the top of your head because I doubt anybody is going to agree with that. The Barry haters are still going to hate Barry, but Pac Bell is second to none, period!


I agree with you that Pac Bell is a nice stadium, but I don't think it is the best.

I haven't been to too many, but here are my favorites:

1. Busch-sea of red, enough beer to fill the stadium, knowledgeable fans (still fill out the scorecards), no nonsense. Brats are good, hot dogs are terrible. OK, I'm a Cardinals fan, but Busch will always be my favorite. 
2. PNC-Clemente bridge, city view, great view of the field. Too many distractions though, and the fans don't really watch the game.
3. Pac Bell-McCovey Cove, good food, knowledgeable fans.
4. Wrigley Field-I hate the Cubs, but there's just something about Wrigley. Best scoreboard in baseball, hot dogs, bricks and ivy, PA used sparingly, ride the El to the game. 
5. Dodger Stadium-classic ballpark, Dodger Dogs, friendly fans, no nonsense. 
6. Miller Park-tailgating is the best thing about Miller Park. The roof is goofy, and they should have kept the old Bernie. 
7. Kauffman Stadium-I've only been to Kauffman when the Cards were playing, and there was so much red there it felt like a home game. nice scoreboard, cheap tickets and beer, friendly fans, fountains, BBQ. 
8. Great American Ballpark-big seats, view of the Ohio River from the upper deck, knowledgeable and friendly fans. Cincy should have put the park closer to the river IMO. Pittsburgh and San Francisco did a better job of utilizing the water. 
9. U.S. Cellular Field-I still call it Comiskey. Not my favorite stadium, but I love to catch a SOX game when I visit my South Side Irish buddies. cheap concessions, take the El to the game, the upper deck is up in the clouds, _You can put it on the board....Yes!_


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

I like Barry, even like his personality, well atleast what gleam from the media. I am not a big baseball fan, but how could being stronger make you a better home run hitter? Is it all about strength? Or does the steriod also enhance his coordination and such? 
Whome's point about him hitting home run still is pretty compelling in my opinion, I seriously doubt he'd be able to pull off using steriods now nor do I believe he'd be brave enough to try.


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> 10-The Stick-Old school, no kiddie BS
> 9-The Coliseum-see #10
> 8-The Kingdome-see #10
> 7-Safeco-New pretty high tech, still no kiddie BS
> ...


ROFLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

jpeirpont said:


> I like Barry, even like his personality, well atleast what gleam from the media. I am not a big baseball fan, but how could being stronger make you a better home run hitter? Is it all about strength? Or does the steriod also enhance his coordination and such?
> Whome's point about him hitting home run still is pretty compelling in my opinion, I seriously doubt he'd be able to pull off using steriods now nor do I believe he'd be brave enough to try.


Strength allows you a generate more energy at contact. Strength allows you to accelerate the bat faster, so you can wait on a pitch longer. Strength allows you to adjust your bat in the air easier. Strength allows for more routine fly balls to end up in the stands. Strength allows for more slow grounders to make it through the infield. Strength allows for one to check their swing easier. And those are just off the top of my head. Riods increase strength, and a zillion players werent taking it because it didnt work.

The game has been ruined. In 1987, the league juiced the ball for more home runs. In the late 90s - enjoying the high from the new money drug they discovered, the league then allowed the players to juice. Both thing had huge impacts on the game. Now, IMO, the game is a joke. It is not baseball, it is homerun derby. In 1978, Greg Nettles led the league w 32 homers. Now 32 is a #6 hitter in any lineup. "But players are stronger now!" Right - human evolution changes that much in just 20 years - sure. Funny how it didnt change for the pitchers though, isnt it. In over 100 years of baseball, there were two men who in just two seasons hit 60 HRs. Then in one year you have TWO guys do it? You have any idea how low the probability of that happening is, ceteris parabis?

The game is a complete joke now, and the league has no one to blame but themselves. IMO, the only records in baseball that I consider are those set before 1987, because anything after than is like apples and oranges. Two completely different games.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Karl89 said:


> whomewhat,
> 
> Barry Bonds represents everything that is wrong with professional sports. And if he took steriods then he cheated. So if you want to celebrate a miserable human being (ask his some of his teammates or sports writers what they think of Bonds) who has tarnished the game then be my guest.
> 
> Karl


Straight to the point. Any record(s) Barry Bonds has or will achieve are tainted and as a sportsman he has brought shame upon Major League Baseball.

There's little doubt that he has used drugs to increase his performance during his career. Records set with drugs on board are tainted.

As a role model for millions of children Barry Bonds is worthless,...

Whomewhat: Obviously you are a big fan of Baseball, difficult to believe you would begin a thread to defend a man who has done so much damage to the sport.

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The Man? steroids impair sexual performance and risk an early death from brain cancer like a certain football player.Thats manliness, drooling in a hospital bed with Field of Dreams playing unwatched on the overhead TEEVEE?


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## CCabot (Oct 4, 2006)

I have to differ with some of the opinions found here within. Fenway Park is the only baseball venue worth mentioning.

On second thought, I will give a shout out to Wrigley Field as well. Sadly, it is the only other ballpark of note today.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

NewYorkBuck said:


> The game has been ruined. In 1987, the league juiced the ball for more home runs. In the late 90s - enjoying the high from the new money drug they discovered, the league then allowed the players to juice. Both thing had huge impacts on the game. Now, IMO, the game is a joke. It is not baseball, it is homerun derby. In 1978, Greg Nettles led the league w 32 homers. Now 32 is a #6 hitter in any lineup. "But players are stronger now!" Right - human evolution changes that much in just 20 years - sure. Funny how it didnt change for the pitchers though, isnt it. In over 100 years of baseball, there were two men who in just two seasons hit 60 HRs. Then in one year you have TWO guys do it? You have any idea how low the probability of that happening is, ceteris parabis?


Perfect example...look at the single season HR record...for what ...like 30 something years it stood at 61 (with an asterisk no less)...in the past 10 years that mark has been passed what like 6 or 7 times??? BS!!!

I also remember reading the stats on players hitting 4 homers in a single game...IIRC there was a period of about 30 years that the feat didnt even happen, and sence the year 2000 it's happened like 5 times once it happened twice in the same season...

you mean to tell me that this is all natural???

And btw...does anybody remember game 6 of the world series that the Giants lost to the Angels??? IIRC didnt Barry the Fairy commit like some kind of error that basically cost them the game and the series??? even if that wasnt the case, he's a mediocre feilder at best...always has been...definately not a well rounded player...and most definately not "the man"...


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

One last thought on the subject and then everyone else can say what they want about it. This may just be a pet-peeve of mine, although others might call it due process, but Barry Bonds has not been charged with much less convicted of anything, yet. Now, if he is, that would change things in my mind, but until and unless he is it would seem that some are operating on the opposite presumption that he is due, that is, the presumption of innocence. 

I know this is a minor point to many, but then I am left to ponder the Duke LaCrosse case, the Olympic Bomber case, and others where the evidence seemed to strongly suggest a presumption, other than innocence, that, in the end, bore out why we actually have a presumption of innocence in the first place. 

Barry Bonds may be a complete jackass to some people and so they are reluctant to provide him with the presumption he is entitled, but we all have our retractors in life, even if we are not Barry Bonds, and let one of you be so presumed guilty and it will not feel so good.

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," said English jurist William Blackstone. Lawyers are indoctrinated with this early in law school. In the fantasies of legal academics, jurors think about Blackstone routinely.

Are these just words or do they really hold meaning for us? Based on the response I have seen thus far I would conclude they are just words. Like all words of moral and ethical power, they seem to hold more meaning for us when they apply to us. Just a thought.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

Know what? 'Roids or not, you still have to get the bat on the ball. This is no small task with major league pitching. As a former college pitcher, I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking about guys like that. (I yielded some 450-footers in the pre-steroid era.)
The game has changed so much, so records comparisons are virtually meaningless. Let him hit his home runs and go quietly into the night. Bill


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

There are plenty of people who have done wrong things and found innocent by the courts. Jurors are not gods.

Besides that, as Gabba said, there are a lot of illegal substances, like Human Growth Hormone, and designer steroids that are not detectable by tests.

Even with the high salaries, no one should have to take possibly cancer causing substances to compete with others that do to make a living.

Bonds is an obvious cheat, even if he has been slick enough to evade the system.

The "only guilty if proven in court" means nothing in the court of public opinion. Barry does not have to be honest about his steroid use. I don't have to be impressed with what he accomplished. It's a shame. He was a spectular player (if a jerk) before he used the steroids. 

He has prolonged his career with them. To be fair, he was probably an all-time great even without the steroids. He would not be the all-time home run champion without them. (Gabba, when he was young, he was an excellent defensive outfielder.)


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## KTin NYC (Jul 10, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> He walks because he sees the ball so well . . . no steroids there. He also has the fastest bat through the strike zone . . . again, no steroids there. Personality has nothing to do with his baseball skills, which is the only thing I am talking about.
> 
> Actually, human growth hormones do improve vision and ones ability to track objects.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

whomewhat said:


> the presumption of innocence.
> 
> presumption he is entitled, but we all have our retractors in life, even if we are not Barry Bonds, and let one of you be so presumed guilty and it will not feel so good.
> 
> ...


You dare to compare criminal law to Barry Bonds?:idea: 
Because an individual has or may never be charged with a crime or spend time in jail has very little to do with them being guilty of a given offense.

Barry Bonds will most likely NEVER be charged with a crime let alone spend time in jail. That does not make him innocent. He is being charged in the court of public opinion. (He's geting off easy!)

One thing is for sure, everyone around Barry Bonds has been involved with the type of performance enhancing drugs he is accused of using. Barry Bonds has access to the finest minds in any profession he may need and to expose himself to these kinds of people is ENOUGH to bring shame upon a sport that has given him a life others dream of,.....What Barry has given back is S H A M E!

Just because Barry Bonds has not been charged with a crime does not mean the public should turn off their collective minds when it comes to accessing the damage Barry Bonds has done to Major League Baseball.

Regards,

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Perfect example...look at the single season HR record...for what ...like 30 something years it stood at 61 (with an asterisk no less)...in the past 10 years that mark has been passed what like 6 or 7 times??? BS!!!
> 
> I also remember reading the stats on players hitting 4 homers in a single game...IIRC there was a period of about 30 years that the feat didnt even happen, and sence the year 2000 it's happened like 5 times once it happened twice in the same season...
> 
> ...


Wasn't he largely consider the best or atleast among the best before his home run streak? He was name MVP.
From what it sounds like steroids have enough effect to change a man stats so I guess I agree his records shouldn't be taken completely serious. But the idea he wasn't a good player before sort of diminishes your argument.


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

"Because an individual has or may never be charged with a crime or spend time in jail has very little to do with them being guilty of a given offense.

Barry Bonds will most likely NEVER be charged with a crime let alone spend time in jail. That does not make him innocent."

Actually, it has everything to do with it and you seem to be completely missing the point. He is presumed innocent of any crime until and unless he is ever proven guilty of one. What that means is that it assumes as true that he has done nothing wrong. That is our system and yet it seems that you have all determined he is guilty until and unless he can prove he is innocent, which is contrary to the very foundation of our way of life. In fact, even if it were possible for him to prove his innocence, I doubt that those of you condemning him now would accept it. Proving a negative has always been impossible, thus, the whole idea of innocent until proven guilty. You want him to be guilty so in your mind he is. It is patently un-American, which is ironic when you consider we are talking about "America's past time."

How many MVP's has Barry won? It was not just because of his homeruns. When the Giants signed him as a free agent away from Pittsburgh, giving him the largest contract at the time, was it not because he was a great player then, even if he was not hitting so many homeruns? Someone earlier talked about building a stadium to fit the player,meaning Bonds, but look at the stadium where he has the most homeruns per at bat ratio - not Pac Bell. How does that figure into the equation?

Alex Rodriguez is having an incredible April and may break the record for most homeruns in the month of April. Is it steroids? If it is not, how do you _know_ it is not in his case, but it is in Barry's? If you think it is steroids, then where is the same indignation over his current success?

I grew up going to SF Giants games as a kid thanks to season tickets my father had, behind home plate to the first base side a few rows up. My hero then and now was Willie McCovey. I have a signed picture with him after my dad caught me one of his foul balls. In truth, I also greatly admired Bobby Bonds, who at the time changed baseball by hitting for power, for average, and stealing bases. He was the first to really have all of those particular skills and it made him a special player. I got to watch Willie Mays in his prime and, frankly, have always believed he was the best all around player. These are my cherished childhood memories.

I admit, freely, that my love of the Giants, my love of those players, probably makes it easier for me to want to root for Barry. Just as true, however, is that I believe in the idea of due process, for everyone, and the moment we start making exceptions for those we do not like we risk an exception being made for ourselves. In fact, if we can deny due process to someone with Barry Bonds' resources, how much easier is it to deny due process to the ordinary citizen. That is not a path I want to go down.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Innocent of WHAT? Innocent of having the money to surround himself with all the expertise millions of dollars can buy and still choosing to hang around with known dealers of performance enhancing drugs?

Yes or no, do you believe Barry Bonds has ever used performance enhancing drugs?

Do not answer the question by stating what other professional athletes have done, just answer the question, yes or no,....

Being a fan of baseball and the fact that Barry Bonds Attorney's have advised him not to dig himself in any deeper then his actions already have does NOT make him innocent.

Being a fan of Barry Bonds or the Giants does not mean your mind has to go numb.

Barry Bonds actions alone make him guilty of bringing shame upon the sport that has given him a life millions of people can only dream of,...

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

127.72 MHz said:


> Innocent of WHAT? Innocent of having the money to surround himself with all the expertise millions of dollars can buy and still choosing to hang around with known dealers of performance enhancing drugs?
> 
> Yes or no, do you believe Barry Bonds has ever used performance enhancing drugs?
> 
> ...


exact-amento...living in the Bay Area, I'm surrounded by Giants fans...my neighbor across the street is probably one of the biggest Giants fans out there, season ticket holder sence forever, all summer long he has a huge Giants Banner hanging from the front of his garadge, he bought the Farenheit GTI just because it's orange and black for crying out loud...but even he cant stand barry the fairy...

alot of Giants fans share the same feelings as most baseball fans that the guy is a black eye not only to the legacy of the Giants but the legacy of baseball period...

although...being a born and raised fan of Oak-Town I still have to maintain that the Giants suck...but that's topic of another conversation :devil:...


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> Yes or no, do you believe Barry Bonds has ever used performance enhancing drugs?


Your question demonstrates complete ignorance for the point I made. What I believe or anyone else believes is not relevant. The only thing that matters is what can be proven and that is nothing. So, remaining true to the principle of innocence until proven guilty, I believe Barry Bonds is innocent, because under the law, he is. I know this is a concept that you just cannot grab a hold of, so I will satisfy myself with that thought.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Read "Game of Shadows" and see what you think of Bonds.

I think he's a paranoid, vicious, jacked-up sociopath. The sooner he hits his home run and disappears the better.

An earlier poster talked about the power explosion in baseball. Maybe it's time to raise the mound back to 15 inches.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

whomewhat said:


> Your question demonstrates complete ignorance for the point I made. What I believe or anyone else believes is not relevant. The only thing that matters is what can be proven and that is nothing. So, remaining true to the principle of innocence until proven guilty, I believe Barry Bonds is innocent, because under the law, he is. I know this is a concept that you just cannot grab a hold of, so I will satisfy myself with that thought.


Yet you will not answer THE question: Do you believe Barry Bonds has used performance enhancing drugs? Yes or no.

Your POINT is irrelevant,... Most people agree that Barry Bonds is NEVER going to court, let alone going to serve time. Even to the Criminal standard are courts are held to barry bonds is STILL not innocent, he is "Not guilty."

In the court of PUBLIC OPINION there is little doubt he has used performance enhancing drugs. (try hard to massage some O2 back into your mind) See, in the court of public opinion if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck,... (even you know the rest)

Barry Bonds is GUILTY of bringing shame upon the sport of Major League Baseball.

Continue to be satisfed in your ignorant little square box world.

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Patrick06790 said:


> Read "Game of Shadows" and see what you think of Bonds.
> 
> I think he's a paranoid, vicious, jacked-up sociopath. The sooner he hits his home run and disappears the better.
> 
> An earlier poster talked about the power explosion in baseball. *Maybe it's time to raise the mound back to 15 inches.*


Yes! I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I agree. I like the increased strategy needed to score runs when home runs are not so easy to hit.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Patrick06790 said:


> Read "Game of Shadows" and see what you think of Bonds.


_Game of Shadows_. I wouldn't call it the best book in the world, but it paints quite effectively a very damning picture of Barry Bonds (and not just about his use of performance enhancing drugs).



127.72 MHz said:


> Yet you will not answer THE question: Do you believe Barry Bonds has used performance enhancing drugs? Yes or no.
> 
> Your POINT is irrelevant,... Most people agree that Barry Bonds is NEVER going to court, let alone going to serve time. Even to the Criminal standard are courts are held to barry bonds is STILL not innocent, he is "Not guilty."


Based on what I have read in _Game of Shadows_ and elsewhere, it's pretty clear that Bonds both used performance enhancing drugs and that he lied about it under oath to the BALCO grand jury. The feds might prosecute him for the latter offense. We can only hope.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Boy, this Barry Bonds guy must be important.


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

eyedoc2180 said:


> Know what? 'Roids or not, you still have to get the bat on the ball. This is no small task with major league pitching. As a former college pitcher, I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking about guys like that. (I yielded some 450-footers in the pre-steroid era.)
> The game has changed so much, so records comparisons are virtually meaningless. Let him hit his home runs and go quietly into the night. Bill


I have heard this argument before and I will agree that getting a bat around on a major league fast ball is almost impossilble for most of us. On the other hand, steroids don't help with hand speed. There are many great hitters (see Tony Gwynn) who didn't hit many homeruns. I believe players juice because of the "spectacle" of regularly crushing 400+ foot homeruns. We don't memorialize the hits, we memorialize homeruns and that is what these players are striving for. Personally, I hope Bonds doesn't break Aarons homerun record. More because I don't think Bonds' personality makes baseball better.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Trenditional said:


> Personally, I hope Bonds doesn't break Aarons homerun record. More because I don't think Bonds' personality makes baseball better.


First time I ever met Barry the fairy I was 12 years old at the stick...I was part of a special scouting group and we were allowed down onto the field before the game to meet the players, I had a ball that had about 10 other guys' autograph on it, and at the time #25 was my biggest hero in the wrold...it took all my courage just to approach him, so here's me at 12 years old asking this guy to sign my baseball, and with an indignance I have yet to experiance again, he shooed me away...I mean, it's one thing to deny autographs, but you dont have to be such a dick to a little kid... from that day forward I became an A's fan...

Next time I met him, I was a teenager in Philly, and I was actually introduced to him face to face by a mutual friend...an interesting thing about him is that he's the type of person who expects people to kiss his ass and fall over their feet in awe of his presence when they meet him, and if you dont do that he turns into the biggest baby ever...but the very interesting thing is that he is probably the biggest whimp you ever met in your life...just listen to him talk...he's a whiner...

I met him a few other times after that, but the most recent time I met him was like 2 years ago or so at Willie Macs restaurant, he wasnt eating there, it was for some photo op or something, and the same friend from Philly introduced us he reminded Barry that he had introduced us once before (aparently roids mess withyour memory or something)...this time I made it abundantly clear that I was very unimpressed by his presence...I doubt he cared much, as he and his "crew" split shortly thereafter...but still...just being around the guy in person gives you quite the feel for how much of an ass he truly is...


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> First time I ever met Barry the fairy...I was part of a special scouting group and we were allowed down onto the field before the game to meet the players, I had a ball that had about 10 other guys' autograph on it, and at the time #25 was my biggest hero in the wrold...it took all my courage just to approach him, so here's me at 12 years old asking this guy to sign my baseball, and with an indignance I have yet to experiance again, he shooed me away...I mean, it's one thing to deny autographs, but you dont have to be such a dick to a little kid... from that day forward I became an A's fan...
> 
> Next time I met him, I was a teenager in Philly, and I was actually introduced to him face to face by a mutual friend...an interesting thing about him is that he's the type of person who expects people to kiss his ass and fall over their feet in awe of his presence when they meet him, and if you dont do that he turns into the biggest baby ever...but the very interesting thing is that he is probably the biggest whimp you ever met in your life...just listen to him talk...he's a whiner...
> 
> I met him a few other times after that, but the most recent time I met him was like 2 years ago or so at Willie Macs restaurant, he wasnt eating there, it was for some photo op or something, and the same friend from Philly introduced us he reminded Barry that he had introduced us once before (aparently roids mess withyour memory or something)...this time I made it abundantly clear that I was very unimpressed by his presence...I doubt he cared much, as he and his "crew" split shortly thereafter...but still...just being around the guy in person gives you quite the feel for how much of an ass he truly is...


"Barry the Fairy?" That's mature. This thread has turned into something other than what I had hoped so maybe the moderators can just close the thread at the request of the person who started it? I did not mean for those suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome over a childhood slight by a baseball player to be forced to relive the traumatic events or to serve as a trigger for those past horrors. I mean it is very clear that you have been deeply traumatized by Barry's refusal to give you an autograph after you mustered up all of that courage and all. I do not want to be a part of causing you to further relive those events that have so severely impacted your life all these years later.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

whomewhat said:


> "Barry the Fairy?" That's mature. This thread has turned into something other than what I had hoped so maybe the moderators can just close the thread at the request of the person who started it? I did not mean for those suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome over a childhood slight by a baseball player to be forced to relive the traumatic events or to serve as a trigger for those past horrors. I mean it is very clear that you have been deeply traumatized by Barry's refusal to give you an autograph after you mustered up all of that courage and all. I do not want to be a part of causing you to further relive those events that have so severely impacted your life all these years later.


You want to know why everybody dislikes Barroid...then when people give you reasons you squeal like a smashed cat...but really, I'm fine with it...trust me...although, it seems like you're the one who gets all bent out of shape whenever anybody tells you something you dont like to hear about your hero...

Too Bad A-Rod will break his single season record this year...and trust me...some other roid feind will come along and pass the lifetime record once he sets that mark too...then we'll see what your stance on performance enhancing drugs and "haters" is...

weak...truly weak...


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## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

BertieW said:


> Boy, this Barry Bonds guy must be important.


In an infamous way.


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ...then we'll see what your stance on performance enhancing drugs and "haters" is...
> 
> weak...truly weak...


I already told you what my position on illegal steroid use was, which is, I am opposed to it. In fact, I am certain I said that IF it is proven that he knowingly used illegal substances, then I would join the chorus of those opposing him.

What YOU, and others here, have a problem with is my position that he is innocent until proven guilty. One actually stated as follows:

"Even to the Criminal standard are courts are held to barry bonds is STILL not innocent, he is "Not guilty."

If someone is going to make a statement about the law they ought at least know what they are talking about first. If and when a person is charged with a criminal act and they go to trial, yes, they are found "not guilty." They are not deemed innocent, only not guilty. That is true when applied to a person who has been criminally charged. Bonds has not!

Even after a person is charged, a trial begins with the presumption of innocence until and unless it is proven otherwise. While a not guilty verdict speaks to the charges the presumption of innocence is still maintained. One reason a jury finds you "not guilty" as opposed to "innocent" is that you are already presumed innocent to begin with so they cannot make a finding that already applies. Instead, the presumed innocent person is found not guilty of the charges against them and so they are both presumed innocent and not guilty. You seem to feel that not guilty replaces presumed innocent, and it does not. Actually, you do not seem to agree with the presumption of innocence either so it may be a moot point.

If you do not like our US Consitution, our judicial system, fine, just say so, but do not suggest it only applies to those you want it to apply to. Again, as I have said before, if you can take away the rights of someone with his money how much easier is it to take away the rights of those who do not have his vast resources. I am certain that should you ever be charged with a crime you will be the first to cry "presumed innocent."

"You want to know why everybody dislikes Barroid...then when people give you reasons you squeal like a smashed cat."

First, I never said I wanted to know why everybody hates Barry Bonds. In fact, you begin with a false premise since it would be false to state that everyone does in fact hate Barry Bonds. The only point that I began this thread with, one that you and everyone else have failed to address, is that he is currently not using steroids, if he ever was, does not have his personal trainer anymore, is being watched through a microscope, is now 42 years old, and yet, he is still hitting the ball out of the park. Since you seem to attribute his ability to hit the ball out of the park with steroid use, and he is defintely not on them now (the effects do not last long once you stop), how do you explain his current ability at 42 to knock the ball out? And, if he can do it at 42, while clearly not using illgeal substances, then why is it so difficult to accept that he could do it 5 years ago, at 37? Your argument is inconsistent, at best, or totally flawed.

ic12337: I did not mean to hurt your brain with logic.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Check it out son...if you dont get it now...then you never will...enjoy the kool-aid...


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

The court of public opinion does not require a jury trial to establish opinions.

While Barry and his handlers know how to avoid overt detection, it is obvious what they are doing.

If you are bound and determined to worship his coveted home run totals, even if it is obvious how he is doing it, you are certainly free to worship Barry and his home runs.


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> ...enjoy the kool-aid...


Yeah, I have watched Bill O'Reilly too. If you cannot refute the argument, just say so. Given your childhood trauma, we all understand, really.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

By the way, it's well documented that there are a lot of substances that the drug tests don't catch. Just because Barry is being tested, there is no reason to conclude that he is not still using steroids. We don't know one way or the other.

Also, the muscle mass still appears to be there, even if the steroids and other helpers aren't.

You are free to ignore what is obvious if you choose.


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> The court of public opinion does not require a jury trial to establish opinions.
> 
> While Barry and his handlers know how to avoid overt detection, it is obvious what they are doing.
> 
> If you are bound and determined to worship his coveted home run totals, even if it is obvious how he is doing it, you are certainly free to worship Barry and his home runs.


I absolutely agree that "opinion" does not require a finding of fact. The difference is that many of you seem to think that opinion constitutes fact, and it does not. You then follow up your first, somewhat intellectually honest, remark with the statement: "it is obvious what they are doing." To be obvious would require facts, not opinion, so it is not obvious.

"*Richard Jewell* (born December 17, 1962) was a central figure in the Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, Georgia. Jewell, working as a private security guard, discovered a pipe bomb, alerted police, and helped to evacuate the area before it went off. Initially hailed in the media as a hero, *Jewell later mistakenly emerged as a suspect, and despite never being charged, was subsequently **pilloried in the media** before eventually being completely cleared."*

Talk to Richard Jewell about what is "obvious" and what is not. It is not I who does not get it, it is YOU!


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Just because Barry is being tested, there is no reason to conclude that he is not still using steroids. We don't know one way or the other.
> 
> You are free to ignore what is obvious if you choose.


The reason to conclude otherwise is the statement that follows: "We don't know one way or the other." That's right, you "don't know one way or the other" and so it is presumed he is NOT.

As to ignoring the obvious, again, I refer to my above post on Richard Jewell.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

You are free to ignore the obvious.

I'll even let you define "obvious" if it makes you feel better.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

whomewhat just admit it...you have a little thing for the guy...good thing he plays for SF huh??? wink wink...


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> whomewhat just admit it...you have a little thing for the guy...good thing he plays for SF huh??? wink wink...


Having successfully represented over 300 federal employees over 16 years, I have a thing for people being "wrongfully charged" just because someone believes it to be true. That is why we have a little thing called the "rules of evidence." I am sure they will have tremendous meaning for you when you are someday charged, wrongfully, of course.

As to the "wink wink," I went to an all boys, Jesuit-run, college prep in San Jose, CA. Maybe you have heard of it? Bellarmine College Prepratory? I used to hear all of the homophobic comments back then, too. I cannot help but think of what we used to say back then as our football team was kicking the behinds of all the other schools, both private and public. "How does it feel to get your ass kicked by a team of *****?"


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Why give any credence to the homophobic taunts?

Oh well, I disagree with you about Barry, but I suppose your winning the football games was a sweet revenge to the nasty jerks you played against.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

whomewhat said:


> Having successfully represented over 300 federal employees over 16 years, I have a thing for people being "wrongfully charged" just because someone believes it to be true. That is why we have a little thing called the "rules of evidence." I am sure they will have tremendous meaning for you when you are someday charged, wrongfully, of course.
> 
> As to the "wink wink," I went to an all boys, Jesuit-run, college prep in San Jose, CA. Maybe you have heard of it? Bellarmine College Prepratory? I used to hear all of the homophobic comments back then, too. I cannot help but think of what we used to say back then as our football team was kicking the behinds of all the other schools, both private and public. "How does it feel to get your ass kicked by a team of *****?"


You're all caught up in trying to be Barry Bonds "Sea Lawyer," he doesn't need you. See, he has the coin to buy the best Attorneys in the U.S.A.. (Sorry you don't qualify,...)

By surrounding himself with known "Juicers" and those who provide the drugs to major league ball players Barry Bonds is GUILTY of being STUPID.

You know full well how much more foolish you'll appear if you dare to speculate your view as a fan of baseball as to if you personally believe Barry Bonds has ever used peformance enhancing drugs,....So you don't.

Then you try to spin the whole mess as though you're the man's Attorney and begin to spout "Legalese" that would make a first year Law Professor burst out laughing.

You were foolish to begin this thread. No doubt you're young, immature, (I suspect both) and ignorant. To wit you betray the sport you claim to love by defending an individual who is at VERY LEAST guilty of hanging around with felons.

Not one person has brought up a legal standard of guilt verses innocence, (save yourself) most fans of the sport simply believe Barry Bonds has brought shame upon Baseball.

That is what Barry Bonds is guilty of right now. We'll see how things shake out in the courts.

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I'm lost ... Barry Bonds is a Jesuit? Who is Barry Bonds?


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## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> You're all caught up in trying to be Barry Bonds "Sea Lawyer," he doesn't need you. See, he has the coin to buy the best Attorneys in the U.S.A.. (Sorry you don't qualify,...)
> 
> By surrounding himself with known "Juicers" and those who provide the drugs to major league ball players Barry Bonds is GUILTY of being STUPID.
> 
> ...


127.72, if you don't mind I'm going to jump on your tails.

Forget the whole steroids thing, there are performance enhancing issues in every sport (try being a fan of cycling right now).

When I think of Bonds' impact on baseball, I'm thinking as a father of a 2 year old son. It is so exciting sitting in front of the T.V. with him and he is already saying "bayball." I think about the legacy of baseball. The summers spent at Dodger Stadium and in front of the T.V. with my father. I can remember my dad speaking so fondly of growing up in Brooklyn and the Brooklyn Dodgers (if you're a fan of baseball, you'd have to admit New York in the 50's was the place to be). Watching the Dodgers today, when I see Furcal wearing 15 I'm thinking to myself, "Hey that's Davey Lopes' number."

Yes, I have some very good memories associated with the Dodgers, but one that sticks in my head still today is when Steve Howe got kicked out of baseball for using Cocaine. I was old enough to understand he was using drugs, but still young enough to not "really" understand the whole picture. I was a fan of his, he was a great young pitcher and he threw it all away. On the other hand, I also can remember not "liking" Kurt Gibson because he seemed "mean", but I cheered like hell when he hit the "Homerun." Looking back now, even Gibson did more for baseball than Bonds has.

Why don't I like Barry Bonds? He doesn't make the sport better! McGwire and Sosa took drugs (court or no court, they juiced and you're blind if you think otherwise), but they brought excitement to the game. Except for some fans in S.F., I don't hear many people rooting for Bonds to break Aaron's record. When you think of a young boy wanting to be....(A-Rod, Jeter, Garvey - [had to sneak one in for me], etc.), would you want your son to, "Want to be Bonds?"

Whoa, my soapbox got taller from when I started this rant. I'll jump off now. =)


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Bill of Portland, Oregon:

When the debate is lost the loser always retreats to the sewer and begins name calling, which is all you seem to have at your disposal. In your defense, however, you have been name calling from the outset so this was never really a debate and you have at least been consistent.

"Sea Lawyer?" One who attempts to shirk responsibility or blame through *trivial technicalities*.

If you think the presumption of innocence, due process, and the US Constitution are trivial technicalities, then you are truly in need of serious help.

I suspect the reason you are aware of the term "Sea Lawyer" in the first place is because the word is used chiefly in the Navy and at the Naval Academy to describe a midshipman or officer who uses technicalities and other trivial excuses to escape responsibility or punishment. I suspect you have been trying to escape responsibility and punishment most of your life. Having two sons in the military, one in the Navy and the other the Marines, and having represented federal employees for 16 years, most of whom were former military, I am painfully aware of your type.

In any event, this thread has now deteriorated to a simple forum for name calling, rather than an intelligent discussion of how a 42 year old baseball player who cannot possibly be on steroids now, if he ever was, is still managing to hit the ball out of ther park.

CURRENT AVG .333 HR 6 RBI 12 RUNS 12 SB 1

"Barry Bonds went 2-for-4 with a three-run homer off Randy Wolf as the Giants beat the Dodgers 6-4 on Wednesday. Bonds' 741st home run helped send the Giants to their seventh straight victory."

Given the current stench in here, I will leave the thread in your capable hands since intellectual dishonesty and handling garbage seem to be your particular area of expertise.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

How ridiculous for you to say that Barry can't possibly be on steroids now. Are you saying that if he's not on steroids, but on other drugs, it's okay?

There are all kinds of drugs that are undetectable. 

You are free to ignore the obvious.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

whomewhat said:


> "Because an individual has or may never be charged with a crime or spend time in jail has very little to do with them being guilty of a given offense.
> 
> Barry Bonds will most likely NEVER be charged with a crime let alone spend time in jail. That does not make him innocent."
> 
> Actually, it has everything to do with it and you seem to be completely missing the point. He is presumed innocent of any crime until and unless he is ever proven guilty of one.


Completely disagree in terms of what the presumption means. The presumption has to do with the burden of proof in a criminal trial, and that's all. Has little to do with one's real innocence. Remember, a court can find you "not guilty," but they don't find you innocent. Ask OJ. Found "not guilty," but then found liable for his acts in a civil court. Doesn't even look like the legal system considered him innocent.


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