# Cliff Roberts handmade shoes



## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

There's been a thread running on SF for a while now, with handmade shoes made by Cliff Roberts of Northampton UK. For those who don't frequent SF, I though you may be interested.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Those shoes are very handsome, indeed! Thanks for sharing the pictures. Any other information available?


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## Groover (Feb 11, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Those shoes are very handsome, indeed! Thanks for sharing the pictures. Any other information available?


have a look here:

https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=110988

Beautiful shoes Pengranger! Congratulations


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## sdjordan (Oct 29, 2008)

Quite dashing, thanks for sharing them with us.


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## Cary Grant (Sep 11, 2008)

Very nice- I'd prefer the gray be suede like the JM westons though those are unfortunately... patent black. 

Nice shoes Pen.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Gee, those look swell.


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

Cary Grant said:


> Very nice- I'd prefer the gray be suede like the JM westons though those are unfortunately... patent black.
> 
> Nice shoes Pen.


Thanks. My initial choice was grey suede, but because of the brogueing being so close to the laces, I was advised against it. I decided on grey leather and I think I've made the right decision.


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

For those that aren't aware, Cliff email's photos of the shoe being made. It's an education in itself! Here's a few...


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> Those shoes are very handsome, indeed! Thanks for sharing the pictures. Any other information available?


I'll try and answer any questions for have. What would you like to know?


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## Cary Grant (Sep 11, 2008)

Are these bespoke? Custom last based on your foot? Care to mention price?


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

I've got a pair on order with Cliff at the moment too. Cliff has a selection of his own lasts (a chiselled toe last and a rounded toe) or you can have a pair of lasts custom made elsewhere by Springline or Bobcol etc and he will work with those. I have chosen to have custom lasts made. The lasts will cost you approx. £190 plus VAT and the shoes will be £320 a pair for the moment. They are mostly handstitched but are machine welted. 

Hope this helps a little,

Chris.

EDIT: Sorry forgot to thank Pengranger for sharing the pics. Thoes shoes look spectacularly handsome. My next pair will be black and grey suede balmoral/galosh Oxfords similar to those I think.


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

Cary Grant said:


> Are these bespoke? Custom last based on your foot? Care to mention price?


Prices are as follows:
£290 per pair

Potential extras:
If a pattern needs cutting (i.e. there isn't currently one in your size): £30
Toe taps: £10
Lasted shoe trees: £35

Cliff has 2 lasts which he works from: round and square toes.

Cliff will also work off of a bespoke last for no additional charge - but you will need to sort out your own last and trees. My next shoes will follow the bespoke route.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

chrstc said:


> They are mostly handstitched but are machine welted.


Actually, it's the other way round. The shoes are hand-lasted and hand-welted, but the sole is attached by machine.









*Hand-lasting*









*Hand-welting*


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Groover said:


> have a look here:
> 
> https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=110988
> 
> Beautiful shoes Pengranger! Congratulations





Pengranger said:


> I'll try and answer any questions for have. What would you like to know?


I popped over to SF and skimmed the thread, getting most of my questions answered. Thanks to both Groover and Pengranger!


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

For those who might be thinking about having bespoke lasts made by Springline and delivered to Cliff I thought that this might be of interest. My lasts were finished today and Cliff will be collecting them very soon (in fact he may already have them). As you can see the master lasts are hand carved and then a copy is made on a copying lathe to be passed over to your preferred shoemaker. You can then either have the masters sent to yor own home or have them stored at Springline.

Sorry about having to doctor the image but, as we know, sadly there are some psychos on the net (and indeed on this very forum)!

Chris.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> 
> For those who might be thinking about having bespoke lasts made by Springline and delivered to Cliff I thought that this might be of interest. My lasts were finished today and Cliff will be collecting them very soon (in fact he may already have them). As you can see the master lasts are hand carved and then a copy is made on a copying lathe to be passed over to your preferred shoemaker. You can then either have the masters sent to yor own home or have them stored at Springline.
> 
> ...


Works of art!
What do they charge for custom made lasts?
How long does it take?
Is it done with a fitting process?


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

Nick V said:


> Works of art!
> What do they charge for custom made lasts?
> How long does it take?
> Is it done with a fitting process?


Nick

The charge for bespoke lasts is £198 + VAT for the first pair, and £98 +VAT for any additional pairs (with different toe shapes). Lasted trees are £73.70 +VAT, and a number of designs and colours are available. You can give Spring Line a picture of the toe shape you are looking for, and they will try and copy it - otherwise there is a selection of toe shapes on their website.

I presume the date on the last (13/06/09) was either when the draft was taken, or when they started work on it. I believe the turnaround time is around 2-3 weeks.

You can visit Spring Line for your feet to be measured. Otherwise you can send in the results of a 3D foot scan, or provide your own measurements after receiving specific instructions from Spring Line.

Hope this helps.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

*Cliff Roberts vs Other semi-bespoke/MTO shoe options*

Cliff Robert shoes with toe-taps, CR shoe-tree and a Spring Line last brings the total to about £555. Or about £605, with a Spring Line shoe-tree. 
Cleverley's semi-bespoke shoes start from £595. I know John Lobb has a 20% upcharge for MTO and Edward Green about the same.

Does anyone have Cliff Roberts and shoes from a semi-bespoke/MTO option, as it would be a good comparison to make.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

ToryBoy said:


> Cliff Robert shoes with toe-taps, CR shoe-tree and a Spring Line last brings the total to about £555. Or about £605, with a Spring Line shoe-tree.
> Cleverley's semi-bespoke shoes start from £595. I know John Lobb has a 20% upcharge for MTO and Edward Green about the same.
> 
> Does anyone have Cliff Roberts and shoes from a semi-bespoke/MTO option, as it would be a good comparison to make.


For the purposes of your comparison, you may wish to note that Tricker's does bespoke shoes for £750 for the first and additional pairs for 300 or so. I'm not sure of the exact prices.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

JibranK said:


> For the purposes of your comparison, you may wish to note that Tricker's does bespoke shoes for £750 for the first and additional pairs for 300 or so. I'm not sure of the exact prices.


Are they not MTO/semi-bespoke rather then true bespoke? Their rejected shoes (RTW and MTO) do appear on eBay.


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

ToryBoy said:


> Cliff Robert shoes with toe-taps, CR shoe-tree and a Spring Line last brings the total to about £555. Or about £605, with a Spring Line shoe-tree.
> Cleverley's semi-bespoke shoes start from £595. I know John Lobb has a 20% upcharge for MTO and Edward Green about the same.
> 
> Does anyone have Cliff Roberts and shoes from a semi-bespoke/MTO option, as it would be a good comparison to make.


ToryBoy, I have a pair of G&G Wigmore MTO's which cost nearly £700 with lasted trees. As you would expect the quality is excellent.

I look on the shoes I have from Cliff a little differently:
- within reason I can have any colour/design I wish
- the shoes are 90% handmade
- I can have bespoke or Cliff's own lasts
- the quality of finishing is excellent
- the time taken to make them is often less than MTO's
- you can tell that they are handmade and one off's as they have those little quirks and non-uniformity you don't get with a machine


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

ToryBoy said:


> Are they not MTO/semi-bespoke rather then true bespoke? Their rejected shoes (RTW and MTO) do appear on eBay.


I think their MTO is about £400.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I missed this thread the first time around. Those are _gorgeous_ shoes.


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

They are incredible. My compliments.


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## kemalony (May 22, 2009)

wow they look great it s really art


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Pengranger said:


> ToryBoy, I have a pair of G&G Wigmore MTO's which cost nearly £700 with lasted trees. As you would expect the quality is excellent.
> I look on the shoes I have from Cliff a little differently:


I cannot comment on Cleverley semi-bespoke quality, but they have advantages like leather options from their complete range and shorter time-scale compared to some MTO programmes, another advantage for me is their store location.

Will have to try both, when I can afford it.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

Pengranger said:


> Nick
> 
> The charge for bespoke lasts is £198 + VAT for the first pair, and £98 +VAT for any additional pairs (with different toe shapes). Lasted trees are £73.70 +VAT, and a number of designs and colours are available. You can give Spring Line a picture of the toe shape you are looking for, and they will try and copy it - otherwise there is a selection of toe shapes on their website.
> 
> ...


Wow! 
I have read this thread but not the entire link. So, If I got this right, you can have Spring Line custom make your lasts and send them off too Cliff Roberts who will custom make your shoe. Both companies appear to be "state of the art" in their Fields. All in between $700 and $800 US? Correct me if my calculations are wrong. In addition, they are delivered with custom trees, plus you get to keep the lasts! Assuming my figures are correct and, the workmanship is as good as the pictures show this is at minimum a $2500.00 (US) value!


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

Nick V said:


> Wow!
> I have read this thread but not the entire link. So, If I got this right, you can have Spring Line custom make your lasts and send them off too Cliff Roberts who will custom make your shoe. Both companies appear to be "state of the art" in their Fields. All in between $700 and $800 US? Correct me if my calculations are wrong. In addition, they are delivered with custom trees, plus you get to keep the lasts! Assuming my figures are correct and, the workmanship is as good as the pictures show this is at minimum a $2500.00 (US) value!


Nick, the first lasts and 1 set of trees is around £312. Cliff's charge is then around £320. So £632 or just over $1000 (at today's exchange rate). I doubt you would get the VAT back.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

Pengranger seems to have answered everyone's questions about my lasts already so there's not much for me to add.

I would agree that the comparison with Cleverley semi-bespoke or EG MTO is not particularly valid. You do not have bespoke lasts made and used for those shoes so the fit with my CRs should be infinitely better. I am looking forward to comparing the eventual fit to my Fosters and will report back when I can.

All the best,

Chris.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Pengranger - firstly those shoes are truly beautiful! Secondly the value for money is extraordinary! Thirdly it raises the question : " Are we being ripped off by the likes of EG, G&G and JL?"

To answer my last question, how would you say the leather quality compares?


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

Are we getting ripped off?

Leatherman, keep in mind if hypothetically speaking, G&G sells a shoe for 500 GBP, and retailers like Tom at Leathersoul sells it for a similar price, expect the retail mark up to be about 50%

Thus G&G is still making a profit when selling it, say hypothetically, at 250 pounds to Leathersoul

Thus Cliffs prices are such that he's still making a decent profit, but he's realized the market would not support him increasing his prices to those of the shoe manufacturers such as G&G and EG or John Lobb

Am still awaiting other EG and G&G customers who have received delivery of a shoe by Cliff to provide a comparison of how the shoe fits and looks construction wise


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## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Ay329 said:


> ...Am still awaiting other EG and G&G customers who have received delivery of a shoe by Cliff to provide a comparison of how the shoe fits and looks construction wise


I have just placed an order with Cliff :icon_smile_wink:

It will be some time before I receive the end product. If it hasn't already been done to death by then, i'll chip in with my thoughts compared to JL, EG & G&G.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

Leather man said:


> Pengranger - firstly those shoes are truly beautiful! Secondly the value for money is extraordinary!
> 
> If we can convince Cliff to make a trip to the major cities here in the U.S. would their be any takers for his artful services?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Nick V said:


> Leather man said:
> 
> 
> > Pengranger - firstly those shoes are truly beautiful! Secondly the value for money is extraordinary!
> ...


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

*Cliff does not need to come overseas*

Nick V., Cliff doesn't need to travel

I am fine with transacting via e-mail...he claims to be too busy to converse over the phone...but is willing to meet in person

The optional Springline's bespoke last is the only reason for me to desire a pilgrimage to his neck of the woods. I have come to the conclusion it's best to be measured by Springline in person than doing it myself. He is seperate from them, but as a courtesy will pick your lasts up from them


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

Leather man said:


> ...how would you say the leather quality compares?


LM, I've compared the leather quality to my black shoes by EG and JLP. I'm not a leather expert, but I can't really tell the difference. My JLP's are shinier, but that's generally to do with the finishing and not the leather.



Ay329 said:


> Thus Cliffs prices are such that he's still making a decent profit, but he's realized the market would not support him increasing his prices to those of the shoe manufacturers such as G&G and EG or John Lobb


Michael, I doubt at the moment Cliff is making too much profit on some of his jobs. Quite often a new last needs to be made by Spring Line, as he either doesn't have the size available, or doesn't have it at all. If the leather colour requested hasn't already been used on another job a new skin needs to be bought - this probably takes most if not all of the profit out of that individual job. The more work undertaken eventually realises benefits as you are able to use your existing materials, however the small scale on which Cliff works can make this difficult.

As Cliff works from home the overheads are low, although the machining of the uppers is outsourced which increases external costs slightly. Handwork obviously takes longer than production on machine.

Cliff doesn't have a "brand" or "name" (yet?), so charging the prices of EG/JLP is out of the question, and I think Cliff acknowledges that. I just hope the prices stay within my reach!


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## jimmyshoe (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't doubt the veracity of anything being said on this entire thread.

However, if Cliff is making these shoes for the price quoted, as a Lobb trained bespoke shoemaker myself, I cannot see how he is making a profit. Unless, he is sacrificing on the quality of the leathers. Or he is happy to work for the love of it.

Is he using top quality box calf? Of a Freudenberg quality? And how about the rough stuff? Is it oak bark tanned leather of the quality of Bakers of Colyton, for example? If not, the shoes will not last the lifetime a pair of the shoes I make will. And the soles will need replacing sooner too (an expensive repair).

Starting with the lasts and the uppers, it takes me 16 to 20 hours to make a pair. Cut out the time for the machine stitched soles and you have a minimum of 12 hours. Choose an hourly rate and do the maths.

There are many ways to speed up the process, eg, not hand skiving the toe puffs/stiffeners; or not hand-twisting and waxing the threads. I dont know anything about how he makes the shoes, but what you are paying for with the West End shoemakers is the centuries old tradition of handsewn shoemaking, with no short cuts.

Also, with a bespoke last, you will normally need 1, maybe 2 fittings. Last making is not an exact science.

Cliff's shoes look lovely, the rest is an unknown.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

Having met with Cliff in person and discussed several of these issues I can answer some of your questions. The soles he uses are definitely oak bark tanned soles from Bakers. The leather is, in is words, of very high quality but, he was at pains to point out, was not the same as that used in the West End. It is slightly thicker than that used in my Fosters shoes apparently.
The lastmaking process is nothing to do with Cliff at all-any problems with bespoke fit have to be directed to Springline not Cliff as he has no control over that part of the process. That having been said, Cliff seems happy to arrange a fitting as recommended by those at Springline.
He has done some work as an outworker for the London bespoke makers in the past and was telling me that he can earn as much this way as he could working for the more famous names. Prices will also begin to rise soon once he has an established bespoke clientele (apparently there were only 6 of us when I spoke to him last Saturday) but I know no more than that.

Hope this clears a few things up at least,

Chris.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

I've been aware of Cliff Roberts for maybe two years after someone, for whom Cliff had made two pairs, posted them on a German shoe forum. I took down Cliff's address, but I never did contact him. At the time, I asked someone in Northampton, whether he knew him and my contact confirmed, they had both worked for the same firm and Cliff (I believe) was an operator on the sole stitching machine.

There was a time when every inhabitant of Northampton had their own last on the mantelpiece, because they had a relative or friend who worked in the industry and either could make up a pair of shoes, or knew who to go to. It was also tolerated in the factories that staff (within reason) could use the machinery to make the occasional pair. Cliff is obviously within that tradition, but his clientele comes from further afield than just the good folk in Northampton.

Most bespoke Westend firms use a pool of outworkers for the 'closing' and 'making'. These guys work from home, usually a garden shed and get paid per piece. I know the going rate for closing and making, although it is not a starvation wage (what it probably was 100 years ago) it is not a great deal of money. A maker, who will not cut corners, can make 2 ½ - 3 pairs week. If he has a steady supply of work, he can make a comfortable, but hardly a splendid living. (I would say, he might make the national average or slightly above.)

Cliff operates on a similar model as those outworkers, the only difference, he offers his services to the general public and not the firms within the trade. He is likely to buy his leather from the same firm in Northampton where everybody buys (unless you are a big factory with your own leather buyer, who will negotiate wit the tanneries directly). Yes, it is possible, he might cut more shoes out of a particular hide and save that way. (If money is no object, you will only cut from the best sections and let the rest end up on the floor.)



jimmyshoe said:


> There are many ways to speed up the process, eg, not hand skiving the toe puffs/stiffeners; or not hand-twisting and waxing the threads. I dont know anything about how he makes the shoes, but what you are paying for with the West End shoemakers is the centuries old tradition of handsewn shoemaking, with no short cuts.


Yes it is possible, his toe puffs and heel counters might not be hand-skived, they might even be thermoplastic. His prices are based on his work and what he considers a reasonable hourly rate. He does not have to add the mark-up the Westend houses need, to pay for their overheads, their international trips and also all alterations and re-makes (if necessary). The maker is not responsible for the fit. If during the fitting stage substantial changes are required, that will eat into the profits (difficult job, difficult customer, they might just break even).

Within the bespoke London shoe trade, there has been this price-fixing, where everybody (excluding John Lobb), be they established houses or newcomers charges, more or less, the same. That does not happen in tailoring, there are significant price differences between a top Savile Row house and a firm less than a mile away in Soho. I agree that chap in Soho will not make a suit to the same quality as Huntsman, but it will only cost be half the price or less.



jimmyshoe said:


> Is it oak bark tanned leather of the quality of Bakers of Colyton, for example? If not, the shoes will not last the lifetime a pair of the shoes I make will. And the soles will need replacing sooner too (an expensive repair).


At present Cliff gives people with an interest in shoes the opportunity to indulge their hobby. The shoes might not last a lifetime, but consider it a fashion item, you might get tired of your design idea, a few years down the road. I remember the mid-70s and the height of disco and platform shoes. There were a number of cobblers who offered platform shoes, cheap and cheerful made to order, in any design you wanted. The shoes might have been cemented, but they were hardly shoes you would have wanted to last a lifetime.

Cliff seems to have the patience of a Saint, to satisfy the wishes and design ideas of his clientele. Those who start off with him, might move on to other, more expensive or more refined shoemakers, or they might not.

I wish Cliff all the best with his chosen business model.


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## Infrasonic (May 18, 2007)

^^ Totally agree BS, and FWIW I can see this business model becoming ever more popular, especially as many of these craftspeople see how insecure working for the big companies can be during a recession...The tailors have been doing it for a few years, time for the shoemakers.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

BS....Interesting post. How would you assess the value factor $ for $?


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## emptym (Feb 22, 2008)

+1. Thanks for your post, bengal-stripe. They're always informative. I'm hesitant to write off Cliff's shoes as a virtually disposable fashion item though.


Ay329 said:


> ...The optional Springline's bespoke last is the only reason for me to desire a pilgrimage to his neck of the woods. I have come to the conclusion it's best to be measured by Springline in person than doing it myself. He is seperate from them, but as a courtesy will pick your lasts up from them


+1 to this too. It's my main reason for hesitating (that and a couple of projects going w/ AS and Vass). Can someone in the US get an accurate last made by Springline?


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

I've said this to someone else in a PM but I think perhaps it might be a good idea for those of you in the US considering having bespoke lasts made to try and get a real idea of how many customes htere might be in your position and then ask Springline about conducting a fitting visit to the US. If there was enough interest then they'd have to think about it very seriously I'm sure. If Springline have US trade customers (and I'm sure that they do) then one of their reps could perhaps make a stop-over at a hotel in one of the major cities and you could all go to meet there.
I really wouldn't recommend self-measurement for your own lasts as I think you are going to end up with something closer to MTM rather than bespoke that way. It is much better to have a trained professional doing the measuring.

Just an idea anyway,

Chris.


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## Hector Freemantle (Aug 2, 2008)

Interesting and informative posts from Bengal Stripe and Christc. It would be great if there were more people like Clff around. There is really no item of clothing that more deserves to be custom-made than a pair of shoes.


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## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

emptym said:


> I'm hesitant to write off Cliff's shoes as a virtually disposable fashion item though.


I did not say, Cliff Roberts' shoes are disposable fashion items, but you can treat them as such, if that is what you want.

Most of the orders I have seen (in pictures, I have never seen any in the flesh) have been balmoral boots or spectator shoes; hardly everyday fare. People seem to be pushing the boat out a bit further; they have probably enough of shoes in a standard design. Maybe in five years time you feel spectators are no longer 'you', well, no great harm done if you don't wear them any longer, even discard them. The current prices enable you to experiment with design options..

At present, you get from Cliff about four or five pairs for the same money than one pair from an established Westend firm. I would say that four or five pairs, worn in rotation, will last you longer than one pair worn frequently.


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## Simon Myerson (Nov 8, 2007)

About 2 years ago Cliff posted a pair of shoes on ebay. They were in my size so I bought them. I stress that they were not made for me, so judgement has to be rendered accordingly.

The shoes are a black Oxford wholecut, with an adelaide throat and a toe cap all created by stitching the leather so that it forms a raised line. Each toecap has a short vertical line running perhaps half its length. They have a bevelled waist/fiddleback sole. 

The fit is fine but not ideal for me (need an insole). They have worn wonderfully well. I have used them as part of a 2 week (or just short of 2 week) rotation. They take polish beautifully and, although the sole feels relatively light, it shows no sign of undue wear. 

I think the leather is a class down on my G & G's and on some shoes from New and Lingwood (obviously made by others but I can't say who). It has taken one small rip mark, which I have polished out, but by which I was mildly surprised.

From what I have seen on this thread, Cliff's talents are improving all the time. The central line on my right shoe is slightly off-centre, which I put down to inexperience. It doesn't bother me, but rather adds to the charm of having something hand made. I bought the shoes for £220 which seems to me to be a fair price for the workmanship, the uniqueness, and the quality of the materials. Cliff is a traditional cobbler, who is reaching a rather wider audience because of the internet. His shoes feel special - and wy wife likes them


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## emptym (Feb 22, 2008)

bengal-stripe said:


> I did not say, Cliff Roberts' shoes are disposable fashion items, but you can treat them as such, if that is what you want.
> 
> Most of the orders I have seen (in pictures, I have never seen any in the flesh) have been balmoral boots or spectator shoes; hardly everyday fare. People seem to be pushing the boat out a bit further; they have probably enough of shoes in a standard design. Maybe in five years time you feel spectators are no longer 'you', well, no great harm done if you don't wear them any longer, even discard them. The current prices enable you to experiment with design options..
> 
> At present, you get from Cliff about four or five pairs for the same money than one pair from an established Westend firm. I would say that four or five pairs, worn in rotation, will last you longer than one pair worn frequently.


Ah, I see. Thanks, bs.


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## MTM_Master? (Jul 8, 2009)

(sigh) if we only had such resources available to us in the mid west!


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## jimmyshoe (Oct 13, 2008)

This may be an interesting business model, but some things occur to me.

What happens if you are not happy with your shoes for whatever reason? What kind of customer service will you get?

Apparently the prices will rise as Cliff gets more customers. This proves the point that his prices are not realistic in the long term. Fine to gain a name but not sustainable. And as his client list grows, so does the admin. Believe me, I know how this problem grows.

One more thing, I think it unfair to say that West End shoemakers have a price fixing policy. I believe it is more likely that it is a simple question of the market controlling prices. And the fact that they are offering a similar service with similar overheads, and thus arrive at a realistic pricing policy. After all, a business must make a profit.

And it is true that we makers make a fairly pitiful living. There is certainly an element of love of the craft in all of us.

I wish Cliff all the best.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

I was under the impression that Cliff makes it absolutely clear that what he is offering is not a bespoke service but a made to order service. Some of the questions and concerns raised, explicitly or implicitly, in this thread seems more applicable to bespoke but less relevant for the latter. Perhaps someone with actual experience of dealing with Cliff can clarify?


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

Very nice shoes, congratulations. The soles look magnificent.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

misterdonuts said:


> I was under the impression that Cliff makes it absolutely clear that what he is offering is not a bespoke service but a made to order service. Some of the questions and concerns raised, explicitly or implicitly, in this thread seems more applicable to bespoke but less relevant for the latter. Perhaps someone with actual experience of dealing with Cliff can clarify?


Hi md,

Yes that is exactly what Cliff told me. However once you are using bespoke lasts and allowing people to design their own patterns without any major restrictions that I know of I don't think you are very far away from a bespoke product. Cliff said that he doesn't claim to make bespoke shoes simply because of the machine work which is involved. Personally I can't see why that should make any difference. If a shoe is completely factory-made but on your own lasts I would still regard that as bespoke. Not the same as West End bespoke obviously, but bespoke nonetheless.

Unfortunately none of the other clients with their own lasts seem prepared to post back about their shoes either here or on SF. Hopefully that will change soon.

Hope that helps a bit anyway,

Chris.


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## misterdonuts (Feb 15, 2008)

chrstc said:


> Hi md,
> 
> Yes that is exactly what Cliff told me. However once you are using bespoke lasts and allowing people to design their own patterns without any major restrictions that I know of I don't think you are very far away from a bespoke product. Cliff said that he doesn't claim to make bespoke shoes simply because of the machine work which is involved. Personally I can't see why that should make any difference. If a shoe is completely factory-made but on your own lasts I would still regard that as bespoke. Not the same as West End bespoke obviously, but bespoke nonetheless.
> 
> ...


Hi Chris,

If one does not come armed with bespoke lasts, which is the case with some of the buyers so far, is the process itself still identical?

Assuming that one supplies bespoke lasts, is there a fitting, and therefore adjustments, done as a standard part of the process, assuming one can get to Northampton? If the adjustment needs to be made on the bespoke last, then how is that dealt with?

thanks,
md


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hi md,

I haven't really asked about the standard MTO process as I was always sure that I wanted to have bespoke lasts made. Hopefully Pengranger can clarify that situation for you?

Certainly Cliff is willing to take the shoes from the lasts and brace them for a fitting which was I myself and a friend who is also a bespoke customer have asked for. Any adjustments to the fit would be done through Springline (or Bobcol if that's where you choose to have your lasts made I suppose) as Cliff makes it clear that he can only work with whatever has been supplied to him. He is not a lastmaker and doesn't claim to be. I assume minor adjustments could be made to the shoes at this stage if necessary but I would encourage people to contact Cliff directly about these sorts of details as I certainly can't claim to speak for him.

Again I hope this is of some help,

Chris.


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## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

Wow, those are some interesting shoes, very visually appealing. I bet the grey looks stunning in person. I can imagine just enough of the grey peeking out as one would walk to draw the eye, and then you might notice the soles. Wow, if only they were $300 or less.


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## jimmyshoe (Oct 13, 2008)

I think that depends on whether you use one of his lasts or get one made at Springline as to whether you would call it bespoke or made to order.


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

misterdonuts said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> If one does not come armed with bespoke lasts, which is the case with some of the buyers so far, is the process itself still identical?


As far as I am aware, the process and costs are the same irrespective of whether you choose to use Cliff's own lasts or bespoke lasts. The standard price is £290. If a pattern is required, that costs an extra £30 - I would expect a pattern would be required for any bespoke last.


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## clintonf (Apr 2, 2007)

Hi all, after a wonderfully pleasant meeting with Cliff yesterday, I present the shoes that he's loving made for me. Delivered in time (my birthday).

I'm very pleased with them.

So without any further delay, here are the pictures.


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## Nick V (May 8, 2007)

Exceptional, enjoy and...Happy Birthday!


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## clintonf (Apr 2, 2007)

Nick V said:


> Exceptional, enjoy and...Happy Birthday!


Many thanks Sir, I appreciate it.


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## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Beautiful colour!


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

Happy birthday and lucky you! The leather looks like he's used crust leather? One of my favourite colours too. Cliffs round toed lasts are very round and in that way classic rather than leaning towards a more modern profile but none the worse for that! They look like they'll last you for many years to come - hope you enjoy them:icon_smile:


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

They look great! Thanks for posting the photos. I am considering that colour for my next pair. How's the fit?

Oh, and Happy Birthday!


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Very nice -especially the soles.


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## JibranK (May 28, 2007)

I would have preferred a less-dainty sole for full brogues, but I'm a bit of a fogey. Very nice craftsmanship.


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## clintonf (Apr 2, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> Beautiful colour!


I do like it. Thanks



Leather man said:


> Happy birthday and lucky you! The leather looks like he's used crust leather? One of my favourite colours too. Cliffs round toed lasts are very round and in that way classic rather than leaning towards a more modern profile but none the worse for that! They look like they'll last you for many years to come - hope you enjoy them:icon_smile:


They seem solidly built and very study. Thank you.



Pengranger said:


> They look great! Thanks for posting the photos. I am considering that colour for my next pair. How's the fit?
> 
> Oh, and Happy Birthday!


I've just tried them on. They fit very well. The fit is different to my standard shoes, but they feel comfortable in the extreme. The test will be over the few wears.

Thanks for the birthday wishes.



Kingstonian said:


> Very nice -especially the soles.


Thank you. I do like the soles. Cliff did this "extra" for me as a birthday gift. I can't wait for my next one.



JibranK said:


> I would have preferred a less-dainty sole for full brogues, but I'm a bit of a fogey. Very nice craftsmanship.


I'm a fogey also, so I understand what you mean. However, Cliff has made a good job. So, I'm happy to run with what he's provided.

Thank you all.

Clint


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## speedster (Jan 13, 2008)

Gents, stunning shoes.
Congrats to both of you!

The soles on yours Clint make me think of Dinkelaker or the likes (Budapestlers)
But I think I prefer the Sargents I have seen the occasional glimpse of.



jjl5000 said:


> I have just placed an order with Cliff :icon_smile_wink:
> It will be some time before I receive the end product. If it hasn't already been done to death by then, i'll chip in with my thoughts compared to JL, EG & G&G.


Looking forward to that, thanks!


----------



## clintonf (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks, I will probably be having another pair or two made by Cliff.

However, if you like the AS shoes, please watch this space. I've got some in the pipeline and I'm looking forward to getting everyone's thoughts.

Cheers

Clint



speedster said:


> Gents, stunning shoes.
> Congrats to both of you!
> 
> The soles on yours Clint make me think of Dinkelaker or the likes (Budapestlers)
> ...


----------



## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Cliff Roberts makes a pair of boots for Lodger Footwear's Nathan Brown


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## wilhelm (Oct 24, 2008)

I received my suede shoes from Cliff today, and love them:



They are made on a bespoke last from Spring Line of Northampton and fit my oddly shaped feet better than any other shoe I've worn. Cliff got all my requested details right, both with regards to fit and to style. Now I see no reason to order shoes from anyone else. (c:


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## emptym (Feb 22, 2008)

Very nice. Thanks for posting them.


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

Great choice. It would be great to see what they look like a couple of months of wear.

This always makes be think about my next pair of shoes... what to buy? :icon_smile:


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

They look very beautiful indeed and I hope you enjoy them for many years to come. I should be picking up my own pair from Cliff in two weeks and can't wait!

Chris.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

Just received a few photos of my own finished shoes from Cliff this morning. AS you can see these shoes are unique in many ways. I absolutely love them (based on the images at least!) and if nothing else then they certainly demonstrate how Cliff can handle complex designs if asked.










Chris.


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

chrstc - Interesting shoes. What is the motif on the toe.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello Culverwood,

It's a medallion of my own design that Cliff made up for me. It is made up of two unfurled umbrellas underneath a stylised bowler hat. I'm very pleased with the way it turned out and hope you like it.

Chris.


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## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

These arrived last month from Cliff. I have to say I am certainly very pleased the overall quality...


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## Sir Walter (Jun 23, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just received a few photos of my own finished shoes from Cliff this morning. AS you can see these shoes are unique in many ways. I absolutely love them (based on the images at least!) and if nothing else then they certainly demonstrate how Cliff can handle complex designs if asked.
> 
> ...


If you don't mind my asking, did you have the last made by spring line or were these chosen from the various offerings by Cliff? How would you describe this last, is this more of a pointed toe with flaring angles midway? I ask these questions because I think you have found the last I am looking for and would like to have made.


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## comrade (May 26, 2005)

Very interesting. I ploughed through the multiple pages in SF
illustrating examples of his work. And perhaps I missed it, but
who makes the lasts?. Does he have a design book? I know what I
like. And I'm sure that I can come up with photos of shoe styles
I prefer. But frankly, among the many pairs of shoes shown in 
these posts, there is not one pair I would buy discounted at the
Nordstrom Rack.


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

Comrade, Clifford's designs are traditional English

Clifford has made plenty of balmoral boots and side gussetted shoes. The former because they are an internet sensation...the latter because they are the most comfortable shoes in the market (faux lacing is only for advanced users :aportnoy

He can make whatever pattern you desire. I would not have chosen Chrstc latest design...but his medallion kicks ass I like the idea of making a faux balmoral shoe via a side gussetted design. That Clifford can execute it so well brings warmth to my heart


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

Chrstc...you have now emboldened me. For some time I imagined making a lazyman wing tipped side gussetted Balmoral shoe. Seeing how well Clifford executed yours, I think I'll do it...but will add brogueing along the balmoral line. Great choice


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Ay329 said:


> Chrstc...you have now emboldened me. For some time I imagined making a lazyman wing tipped side gussetted Balmoral shoe. Seeing how well Clifford executed yours, I think I'll do it...but will add brogueing along the balmoral line. Great choice


Hello,

Glad to know that my shoes have been inspirational in some way then!
As I say I stil haven't seen this latest version in the flesh but if it looks like it does in the pictures I'll be very happy indeed!



Sir Walter said:


> If you don't mind my asking, did you have the last made by spring line or were these chosen from the various offerings by Cliff? How would you describe this last, is this more of a pointed toe with flaring angles midway? I ask these questions because I think you have found the last I am looking for and would like to have made.


The last is a bespoke one made for me by Springline. The basis of the last was the classic Grenson Masterpiece round toe last used for the New and Lingwood Poulsen Skone series crossed with some of the characteristics of the Edward Green 82. The rest I left entirely up to Michael James the last designer at the company. I already have a chiselled toe last at Fosters and so didn't want one to be used by Cliff. I'm very pleased by the way this has turned out.

To Comrade: As AY329 has said Cliff can make you anything that you want. He tends to be commissioned to make slightly more "interesting" shoes than the norm simply because these are designs that people cannot get without paying London bespoke prices otherwise and we all have ideas in our heads about our "perfect" shoes. As with any bespoke product there are no limitations bar what is technically possible and the amount of money you wish to spend. Whether you want a simple captoe Oxford or a side laced alligator and ostrich balmoral boot with cordovan lining Cliff can probably make it! Speaking for myself I would be profoundly disappointed if everyone liked my design-the whole point is for it to be classic (and the "Cambridge" design is a classic) with a twist and I'm very happy with what has been achieved.

Chris.


----------



## clintonf (Apr 2, 2007)

chrstc said:


> Hello Culverwood,
> 
> It's a medallion of my own design that Cliff made up for me. It is made up of two unfurled umbrellas underneath a stylised bowler hat. I'm very pleased with the way it turned out and hope you like it.
> 
> Chris.


Hi Chris, I'm glad to see that you've had some shoes made that you appreciate and value. From our previous discussions, I know that you have pretty exacting taste. Your "Cliff" shoes are very distinct. Perhaps not to everyone's taste, but nonetheless, clearly well made.

Without wishing to be a hypocrite, some "action" shots on your feet would be cool.

Wear them in good health.



jjl5000 said:


> These arrived last month from Cliff. I have to say I am certainly very pleased the overall quality...


I think that we have quite similar tastes as these shoes really do "something" for me. They are very distinctive, but funky (forgive the turn of phrase).

Well done. I do like.

Clint


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hi Clint,

Thanks very much. I still don't have a digital camera (less money spent on technology=more money spent on shoes and tailoring!!) but will see if I can get someone else to take some photos when I've picked the shoes up.

As you say I had a very specific design in mind and sent Cliff a collage of details from various shoes that I wanted incorporated into my design. Simply put it appears that he has delivered exactly what I want and is wonderful to work with throughout the process as you know.

All the best as ever,

Chris.


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## Groover (Feb 11, 2008)

Chris,

Fantastic shoes! Congratulations!

I'm sure we've discussed this but is that your (springline) last or one of Cliffs'?

Cheers
G


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## Groover (Feb 11, 2008)

jjl5000,

Many congratulations, I like those a lot. I especially like the suede throat, makes a very nice contrast. I'm keen also on the metal quarter tip, it's something I've thought about for a while as I'm heavy on my heels.

Well done! :thumbs-up:


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Groover said:


> Chris,
> 
> Fantastic shoes! Congratulations!
> 
> ...


Hi Groover,

The last is a Springline bespoke one and I'm very pleased with it so far. I tried to base it on the old Grenson Masterpiece round toe last with which we're both very familiar and, given that my feet are fairl wide, I'm very pleased with how sleek the last actually appears to be.

Glad you like them and your Sargents have made me wonder whether I do need another pair of adelaides after all now....:icon_smile_big:

Chris.


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## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

clintonf said:


> ...I think that we have quite similar tastes as these shoes really do "something" for me. They are very distinctive, but funky (forgive the turn of phrase).
> 
> Well done. I do like.
> 
> Clint





Groover said:


> jjl5000,
> 
> Many congratulations, I like those a lot. I especially like the suede throat, makes a very nice contrast. I'm keen also on the metal quarter tip, it's something I've thought about for a while as I'm heavy on my heels.
> 
> Well done! :thumbs-up:


Thanks chaps. I must admit I find the diamond a bit too pointed and a more subtle interpretation would have been preferable. Unfortunately, Cliff didn't send any photos until the shoes were complete and so the opportunity to correct (assuming that might have been possible) was lost.

Nevertheless, I look forward to wearing them as soon as the weather picks up a little.


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## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

Groover - I have had a lot of concern (resistance?) from EG when I have requested metal segs. They are concerned about slipping although I have several pairs retro fitted with flush metal heel segs and haven't fallen (yet). 

It is true you need to take care on hard polished surfaces (think supermarkets etc.) and wet marble floors are not your friend :icon_smile_big:. They are also noisy but I like the 'click clack'.


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## londoncentral2 (Mar 22, 2009)

*Segs and quarter tips*

Always happy to fit metal segs or quartertips - am a professional cobbler so drop me a line if you need any.

Cheers


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

jjl5000 said:


> Thanks chaps. I must admit I find the diamond a bit too pointed and a more subtle interpretation would have been preferable.
> 
> I felt the same with the diamond he used on my balmoral boot. I also found it too pointed and less space for the front apron
> 
> ...


----------



## jjl5000 (May 14, 2006)

I agree with your comments regarding the diamond caps. I actually think the caps on all your shoes look great (including Cliff's). I think Cliff used a more subtle interpretation on yours than he did on mine.

The picture showing the variable toe cap lengths on G&G was originally posted by me :icon_smile_wink:


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

Just a very quick update to say that myself and aother of Cliff's clients on this forum picked up our shoes yesterday. My shoes are everything that I'd hoped they would be from the pictures I'd received before and I've already placed another order. I'm so grateful to the Sleevehead blog for mentioning the SF thread that led me to Cliff in the first place. This has been quite the adventure so far and I certainly haven't been disappointed. 

Chris.


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## Sir Walter (Jun 23, 2007)

Has anyone form the US utilized the services of Mr. Roberts or Springline?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

^+1

I'm very interested in the answer to that, especially the bit about the last. I don't know of a US source for custom lasts, which is the primary obstacle to using Mr. Roberts's services.


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

SirWalter and Cuffdaddy...I'm in Los Angeles and used his services

This is a SF thread with more pictures and more information
https://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=110988&highlight=My+Balmoral+Boots

I initially ordered a balmoral boot using Clifford's standard squared and chiseled last. I was happy with the order and have opted to invest a bit more money in the hopes of producing a higher quality shoe with a better fit

By better quality, Clifford will use a higher quality leather (I will pay more for it) and have opted to create a bespoke last via Springline (for the better fit). I was personally measured (I opted against doing it myself and mailing in the measurements). I will pay extra for a sample shoe (to see if the fit is decent or some adjustments need and can be made).

Payment was all done via PayPal and e-mail is the way I communicate with Clifford and Springline (although I've found Michael of the bespoke department prefers to talk over the phone than e-mail.)

I went the extra mile and personally met Clifford in Northampton. I felt going to Northampton was a necessity in order to be measured for the bespoke last and to ensure in person...per my next 4-6 shoes, Clifford was capable to designing what I wanted & he guided me against things that were not feasible or just looked bad.

If you are currently unable to fly to London and take the train to Northampton, might want to try Clifford's standard lasts (talk to him about this as he squared/chiseled and rounded lasts). Usually for around 400 pounds (unique designs, shipping & lasted shoe trees included in the expense), you can make your own unique design without having to experiment with the prohibitively expensive bespoke firms out of London.

If you like your initial experiment, you may try, as I have, to go a bit upmarket and build an awesome product.


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## Sir Walter (Jun 23, 2007)

How much better are the options for improving quality of leather and what are the up charges? I have sent an e-mail to springline but have not heard back. I have an irregularity with my right foot which will preclude me from using Mr. Roberts's standard lasts. I am hoping to have some success using springline and e-mailing measurements of my feet along with pictures of me getting the measurements.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks, Ay329. 

I take it you traveled to the UK for your springline measurement?


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## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

Hello everyone,


I will be using Cliff to make me several ankle boots and shoes and have decided to make my own lasts.

I finished the last yesterday and want to post pictures here (and SF) but my pictures are between 3 to 9 Megs. How do you gentlemen normally reduce file size so that they may show up here (and SF) or is that not necessary since we have to go via picture hosting site?

thanks

PS: I want to thank the OP for starting this post and others for resurrecting it since I found it just in time. Cliff seems to offer a great service at a fantastic price!


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

SirWalter, I can't not comment on the difference in leather quality. But I have shoes from Cleverley, Vass, Edward Green and Gaziano & Girling. Their leather looks different than Cliffords. I can not comment that either is superior. Keep in mind Clifford's product is more affordable, and part of that might be that his leather is not as oppulent as others

Cliff's leather merchant has access to better quality (or "bespoke" quality). Depending on the leather, there might be a 20 to 60 pound upcharge for certain calf leathers....higher for the exotics or cordovan.


----------



## Sir Walter (Jun 23, 2007)

Ay329 said:


> SirWalter, I can't not comment on the difference in leather quality. But I have shoes from Cleverley, Vass, Edward Green and Gaziano & Girling. Their leather looks different than Cliffords. I can not comment that either is superior. Keep in mind Clifford's product is more affordable, and part of that might be that his leather is not as oppulent as others
> 
> Cliff's leather merchant has access to better quality (or "bespoke" quality). Depending on the leather, there might be a 20 to 60 pound upcharge for certain calf leathers....higher for the exotics or cordovan.


Thank you Sir, you have been most helpful.


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## Xenon (Oct 3, 2007)

Here are several pics of the last I made that I will be sending to Cliff today.

As you can see fairly extreme but nice to know that Cliff did not seem put off by these. I requested an ankle boot on a wholecut type concept (as few stitches / leather pieces as possible). I originally told Cliff the front lace-up configuration was Ok but now I will ask if he can do the side lace-up instead.

When he recieves the last he will make a trial boot and we will go from there.

(img)https://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh34/fixitfast/?action=view&current=P1000682a.jpg(img)


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

Here are some pictures of my new last which Cliff will be suing for my next pair of shoes. It is what you might call a half-round, half-square design and in the last two pictures you can see a comparison of the last with the shoe that inspired it-an old Poulsen Skone bespoke model that I bought from eBay as I was so inspired by the toe shape in particular. The shoes were made in 1961 if anyone is interested in that! Anyway, hope this is of interest to fellow shoe fanatics..

Chris.


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## clintonf (Apr 2, 2007)

Looks good Chris, I cannot wait to see the final result.

How long do you estimate it will be before you have a pair of shoes based upon this last?

Cheers

Clint


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hi Clint,

Thanks very much and glad you like them. I'm having a pair of trial shoes made on the last just to fine-tune the fit so I think I've still got quite a long wait before the final shoes arrive. Just a guess but I'd estimate more than 6 months at this stage.
I'm sure it will be more than worth it in the end though.

Thanks again,

Chris.


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm currently having a pair of galosh-topped button boots based on a in the pipeline from him.


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

I wanted a very dark brown calf leather. 
Cleverley & Fosters refer to it as black coffee leather...G&G calls it Espresso

I wanted a plain front...no design, but I desired some brogueing/ornamentation on the topline, strap and the front vamp of the shoe

Clifford completed the design as requested and based on the pics I sent for guidance

Fit: Out of the box, it fits better than any monk I have worn by C&J, EG, and G&G. Since it is a Springline bespoke last, it tackles my high instep well, so that I do not notice it...in the past, I had to loosen the monk strap by one level to relieve the pressure on my instep...but this caused some of my shoes to be a bit loose (and not to my liking). As to fit in the toe box, it is roomier than my other monks...& I love it

Granted, I have worn this shoe for a few hours, but the fit is better. Is it phenomenally better...no. But it is a noticeable improvement over my other monks in terms of fit

The front last shape came out as I desired...although I might consider Springline to make me another last which is a bit pointier, longer and more chiseled.

I paid an extra 60 pounds for "bespoke" quality leather. It is an improvement over the black calf used on my first commission with him. I will continue to pay & request for the bespoke premium leather as it looks better.

Yes, I am ordering more shoes from Clifford...Winston Churchill faux laces

Will I solely be ordering ONLY from Clifford...no. I still like the RTW G&G TG73 last's shape and the quality of shoe from them too. But now I can have Clifford make some personal designs...for about 500 pounds (includes shipping and bespoke shoe trees)


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## Pengranger (Apr 13, 2008)

An interesting pair Michael... I guessthey won't be to everyone's taste, but the are unique. I like them!

It would be interesting to know if the shoes have a rear seem and what shoe trees you opted for. How do you find the finishing of the sole compared to your previous pair?

Thanks



Ay329 said:


> I wanted a very dark brown calf leather.
> Cleverley & Fosters refer to it as black coffee leather...G&G calls it Espresso
> 
> I wanted a plain front...no design, but I desired some brogueing/ornamentation on the topline, strap and the front vamp of the shoe
> ...


----------



## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Cardcaptor Charlie said:


> I'm currently having a pair of galosh-topped button boots based on a in the pipeline from him.


That is a lot of buttons Charlie. I read you use some sort of hook to open and close them.

Will you be wearing them on a day to day basis or just for re enactments?


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Ay329, how did you come by the lasts? Did you go to the UK to have springline make some for you?


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

CuffDaddy, I was measured by Clifford and he gave the information to Springline. Due to my time schedule, Springline's bespoke last maker was unable to see me. Clifford then made me a sample-trial shoe. I made adjustments which were well reflected in my posted shoe. In a perfect world, I would have returned to Springline wearing the sample-trial shoe and perhaps they could have made more adjustments (ever slight) to my lasts...but I live way across the pond to do this.

Pengranger, it has a single seam in the rear moving from up to down...no dog leash. Will add a picture later on tonight

I opted for bespoke lasted 3 piece shoe trees from Springline....in a mahogany brown


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Ay329 said:


> CuffDaddy, I was measured by Clifford and he gave the information to Springline. Due to my time schedule, Springline's bespoke last maker was unable to see me. Clifford then made me a sample-trial shoe. I made adjustments which were well reflected in my posted shoe.


I take it this occurred during a trip to the UK?


----------



## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

Yes, I had a 12 hour layover in London. Arrived by 10 pm, took the National Coach by 11:15 pm, arrived in Southampton by 1;30 am, met Clifford for about 30 minutes and was measured. Then took the coach back to London to grab my flight

Given the fit of this pair, the treck up to Northampton was well worth it

Here is a rear shot for Pengranger


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Kingstonian said:


> That is a lot of buttons Charlie. I read you use some sort of hook to open and close them.
> 
> Will you be wearing them on a day to day basis or just for re enactments?


're-enactments'... No Sir, I will always wear them for full morning dress from now on! I already have a silver button hook to put them on.

I have not received them yet... They are taking far longer than I thought (I began the process in April!) as he has never made a pair before so is taking time to get them perfect.


----------



## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

Cliff is taking ages making the button boots. He apparently had to discard a first attempt. His second attempt is also proving tricky and there is issue with the buttons (which I told him to sew shanks on them as he sewn them flat when I saw pictures of them). 

They are taking so much time that he says I do not need to pay anymore on top of my £100 deposit I paid him in April because of the delay. 

It ought to be finished by the end of the year.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hello,

Just received these pictures of my completed second pair of shoes from Cliff. The medallion proved popular so Cliff had a punch made up in the design so it's much "crisper" this time around. I'm very pleased with the "slightly rounded" chisel toe too. The waist and the punched initials on the sole are also very nice touches in my opinion.

Chris.


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

Chrstc...I like it...a very personal bespoke design...and the medallion rocks


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## Cardcaptor Charlie (Jul 7, 2008)

He's still not completed my button boots... And I was planning to wear them to The Wedding... *sigh*


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## clintonf (Apr 2, 2007)

Well done Chris, these are certainly eye-catching. Where do you plan on giving them their first outting?

Clint


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Hi Clint and Ay329,

Thanks very much-though I hope they'll be significantly less eye-catching in the flesh and taking account of trouser drape etc. They're based on the classic old Fosters design of course and, judging purely by the pics at this stage, I'm really pleased with them. I'm going to pick them up this weekend and their first outing will probably be to a retirement party that I have to attend next week I think.

Chris.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Terrific medallion, Chris.


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## chrstc (Jun 11, 2007)

Finian McLonergan said:


> Terrific medallion, Chris.


Thank you very much 

That picture is very appropriate in that my style hero is Bunny Roger-the man who provided the inspiration for Steed.

Thanks again,

Chris.


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## NH102.22 (Oct 25, 2012)

Pengranger said:


> Prices are as follows:
> £290 per pair
> 
> Potential extras:
> ...


For those who might be interested, Cliff Roberts' standard prices for new customers have risen significantly since these posts were made,
to £550 per pair of shoes and £650 for boots (which represents a £200 increase over last year's prices).

The surcharge for "bespoke grade" leather is now £100, for crup (shell cordovan) £200, double leather soles £15 (IIRC) which seems reasonable enough.

While still much cheaper than traditional bespoke options, Cliff's _non-bespoke_ custom MTO prices are heading north of the experimental or "disposable fashion" price range that has been discussed in the fora, at least for average people (my personal economic conditions haven't "improved" by anywhere near as much as Cliff's prices in the last few years - they have barely improved at all). Then again, it was more or less known that the initial low prices were unsustainable in the long term; some price rises were expected but one has to wonder how much higher they will go.

Most people seem to go to Cliff for unique designs, but if you are interested in shoes of a fairly standard design or a pair of ordinary Balmoral boots, you may find that Cliff's competitive edge has been largely eroded by his price rises, since non-bespoke made to order products are available for less from a number of factories, albeit not "handmade" and with less flexibility in the design. It's not an apples for apples comparison because with Cliff we are talking about (mostly) handmade shoes; it depends what design you are interested in and how much you value "(mostly) handmade".

As an example, you can get a pair of MTO Balmoral boots from Carmina in Horween crup leather (fixed pattern, last options, various weird and wonderful colours like navy, ruby, forest green, saddle etc., choice of lining colour, no surcharge for double leather or "double thickness" Dainite soles) for approximately £650 delivered (approx US $1045, AU $1115) that will arrive in three months or less, whereas a similarly styled (but mostly handmade) product from Cliff would lighten a new customer's wallet by £905, that is £650 + £200 for crup + £15 for double leather soles + £40 postage (approx US $1455, AU $1553), without the extra charges for a custom pattern, toe tacks etc. My last pair from Cliff took about seven months and wasn't exactly what I wanted when it did arrive due to a fairly basic oversight (i.e not reading my emails properly or reading them but forgetting, running out of the material I requested or something similar - I didn't consider the matter worthy of serious pursuit, but be warned that this sort of thing can happen). On top of that, another two firm orders I had placed were mysteriously cancelled by him, ostensibly because he only made one pair at a time and wanted to ensure I liked the pattern before proceeding with subequent pairs, but the pattern was very much a standard design and I suspect the real reason was so he could charge a new higher price. Either way, I'm not impressed and have no intention of reestablishing those quietly cancelled orders.

Despite being "factory-made", boots like the Carmina 80092 are very, very nice, and since they are higher than Cliff's they have more of that expensive horse bum in them. In my experience, they are also made in exactly the colour I ask for, are not missing things like pull loops, and come in a proper, brand new box that is actually large enough for the boots, with boot bags... Alfred Sargent until recently also offered an excellent mid-range MTO programme through a reputable dealer, with long delivery times (anywhere from 12 to 26 weeks) but rock bottom prices (under £400 delivered for boots in standard calfskin) and the few pairs I acquired (at the same time as dealing with Cliff) were better than expected and outstanding value for money. Sadly, it appears that this programme has been discontinued as of early 2013 - hopefully not permanently. Then there is R.E. Tricker, excellent quality for those whose feet fit their blobby lasts (around £500, reliable 3 month delivery), and there are others. When it comes to shoes made in standard(ish) patterns, this is what Cliff is competing against, perhaps moreso than the high-end bespoke makers, since while his shoes are mostly handmade, they are not proper bespoke and use standard quality leather unless you pay extra.

For my part, while I love the idea of having my own pattern made for me, love the handmade imperfections of Cliff's shoes and his beautiful soles, I'm not sure if I love them enough to keep paying more and more given the high quality factory standard pattern MTO options and the shortcomings of Cliff's backyard business model.

Of course, if you're looking for something more unique that does not fit a standard pattern, I'd say Cliff is still a good choice, and whatever pattern you choose his shoes are very nice, despite the odd hiccup or oversight in the design process and the poor communication characteristic of Cliff's operation... but given such shortcomings, I think it would be hard for Cliff to justify any further price rises without improving certain aspects of his work.

Also, button boots are no longer available and he will not use bespoke lasts (at least not for new customers).


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