# Is organic food a fraud?



## pweller (May 21, 2008)

Recently, there have been 2 food scares that seem to affect both organic and non-organic foods alike. I am referring to the current salmonella peanut butter recall, and the spinach scare of a year or so ago. I found quite a few products labelled 'organic' that are affected by the salmonella scare here: 

I do not claim to be an expert on this topic. But, my question is this: If organic foods are significantly different than non-organic, why are they affected by the same salmonella outbreaks? If they are such different products, grown and kept separately, then clearly only one or the other should be affected, but not both.

I understand that the peanut problem is due to a processing plant, and isn't a farmer/grower issue directly, but this still doesn't really add up.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?


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## JohnRov (Sep 3, 2008)

I really fail to see your point. How does something that has nothing to do with how a food is produced invalidate the method of production?


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## pweller (May 21, 2008)

JohnRov said:


> I really fail to see your point. How does something that has nothing to do with how a food is produced invalidate the method of production?


I thought that the point of organic was healthy food grown/produced under controlled conditions. As a 'bottom line' kind of guy, what's the point of growing food carefully only to process it carelessly? It's only worthwhile if the entire process is good. Obviously, organic food with salmonella is no better than non-organic food with salmonella. I think the product and the production have to go hand-in-hand.

Furthermore, I don't know all of the specifics surrounding the spinach scare. I thought that was due to animal waste on the product or in the irrigation water, which again leads me to believe that these things aren't as different as the marketing people want us to believe.


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## smujd (Mar 18, 2008)

As a preliminary matter, you have to be careful with the term "organic" since its meaning can vary wildly. Also, if you're going to buy organic, you need to get it from a trustworthy source. Just because something claims to be organic doesn't mean that it is organic or that it is what you consider organic.

With those caveats out of the way, I buy organic because I don't want to ingest a bunch of chemicals needlessly. I don't mind paying extra to have meat without hormones or fruit without pesticides.

This is not to say that hormones and pesticides are all bad. Both have allowed exponential increases in food production. If the choice is people starving in Africa or Africans eating conventionally grown fruits and vegetables, I think most would agree that the hormoes and pesticides have helped.

For me, though, I am fortunate enough not to worry about starvation, so my choice comes down to conventional or organic foods. I choose organic because, having access to both, I prefer to avoid chemicals and their known and unknown effects on humans.


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## JohnRov (Sep 3, 2008)

smujd said:


> As a preliminary matter, you have to be careful with the term "organic" since its meaning can vary wildly. Also, if you're going to buy organic, you need to get it from a trustworthy source. Just because something claims to be organic doesn't mean that it is organic or that it is what you consider organic.


The USDA regulates organic food. If so labeled, it must meet the criteria of the National Organic Program. The intent is to enable people to make informed food choices. Now whether the standards are strictly enforced, I don't know. But the term organic is defined, as opposed to natural or other terms.


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## Chi (Feb 15, 2009)

I am a big believer in organic fruit and vegetables. In some fruits, pesticides get into the meat of the fruit so it can not be "washed off". I always try to buy organic grapes, apples, peaches, pears, and any other fruits with thin skins.


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## Mannix (Nov 24, 2008)

Well I've been eating non-organic fruits and vegetables my entire life, and I'm neck tumor free as of right now...we'll see how I am in 30 years or so.


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## perryw (Sep 22, 2008)

I saw the title of this thread on the forum listing and immediately thought about the salmonella outbreak. My coworkers and I had the exact same questions.

Maybe there's not too many ways to grow peanuts and then turn them in to paste?


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## epicuresquire (Feb 18, 2009)

Enforcement is a joke. Deregulation.

The markets will fix everything. Right?


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm a non organic dude. I haven't seen any reason to switch to organic and increase my food bill $100s a month.
My simple solution;
1-clean food
2- cook food
3-pray over food
4-eat food
I also take supplements for what may be lacking in my diet.



If things ever get so bad that I can't trust what I buy from the grocery store then I'm going straight to the farm or farmers market and slaughter house.


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## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

Crownship said:


> I'm a non organic dude. I haven't seen any reason to switch to organic and increase my food bill $100s a month.
> My simple solution;
> 1-clean food
> 2- cook food
> ...


^+1. I know several people who swear by organic food, but methinks it's just a placebo. I am floored how expensive organic food is. I go into Whole Foods every once in a while for a good chuckle.


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## Penang Lawyer (May 27, 2008)

I too do not see the whole thing about organic food. I have eaten non organic food all my life and I am in good health.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

My wife and I pretty much eat organic food exclusively.

It started with her (one of those "wife things"), and since she manages our groceries and is the primary cook (I just bake), I let her do what she wanted. Now, about 5 years later, the idea of "ordinary" food bothers me.

Probably it doesn't "really" matter, but I do like the idea of reducing the level of chemicals (from pesticides, high-tech soil treatments, etc.) taken internally - things that mere "washing" won't remove (having worked as a biophysicist and analytical chemist in the past, I'm well aware how incredibly hard it is to actually clean a surface... just scrubbing and rinsing isn't enough). We are lucky enough, foodwise, to live in a very "liberal" community, so we have a neighborhood organic farmer's co-op, Whole Foods, Trader Joes, plus a couple of asian markets with organic selections.

I even drink organic, free-trade coffee 

Is it expensive? Quite so, especially since we're "foodies". Probably our grocery bill is about twice what it would be if we weren't selective, but few things are more important than what you eat (I always say you should never economize on shoes, mattresses or food) so it's worth it.

But "chemistry" aside, I feel there are several ancillary benefits to organic eating. First, you're *thinking * about food more, and that awareness - the inability to just reach for the convenient packages - translates into a better, healthier diet. Also, going organic means you don't have so many "preserved" foods, so you're forced to shop more frequently so you're eating fresher food (always a good thing) AND probably a greater variety of food, since you aren't buying in bulk or "hoarding". Finally, the quest for organic food leads you to stores where you're more likely to be buying whole-grain breads and the like.

So the organic benefits are both chemical and "lifestyle", I'd say; that's been my experience, at least.

D.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I've found organic foods usually taste better as well.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Organic is one of those catchwords that means different things to different people. I'm a monkeywrenching treehugger, and I am damned if I know what 'ecology' is?
Very simply, organic is not so much what food has, but what it does not. Modern organics are simply plant and animal food products produced pre WW2 chemical and industrial agriculture practises.
To some, simple ethical treatment of animals is organic. Our recently passed California legislation reflects this. And, with a two year degree in agriculture with basic production courses in dairy,beef,sheep,swine,chicken and citrus management I know some aspects are horrific while others are of value. A free range chicken leads a happy, as far as chicken happy goes, life.Certainly, if you've fed feed to a battery holding thousands of chickens with their upper beaks burned off you might concur.
But I also know a chicken can get all manner of nasties eating those tomato cutworms that can show up concentrated in my morning dnever Omelet.
Unless you are a hunter gahterer, 100% organic is a myth.
People should ponder a tall, cold glass of microbrewery bear. Beer was invented, along with much of our cultural tools on the Fertile Crescent, aka Iraq.
the buzz was just a nice side effect. Brewing provided a SAFE beverage from the ORGANIC pollutants even then present in that ancient civilisation.
Organic is a clumsey and marketable phrase to let peolpe know the producers are at least thinking about the product.
Pours myself a finger of Laphraiog, which tastes of peat, decomposing plant matierial. Slante' which is Gaelic for ' it's organic'


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## JohnRov (Sep 3, 2008)

TMMKC said:


> ^+1. I know several people who swear by organic food, but methinks it's just a placebo. I am floored how expensive organic food is. I go into Whole Foods every once in a while for a good chuckle.


There are certainly cheaper places to buy everything than Whole Paycheck!


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## iclypso (Jan 10, 2009)

pweller said:


> I do not claim to be an expert on this topic. But, my question is this: If organic foods are significantly different than non-organic, why are they affected by the same salmonella outbreaks? If they are such different products, grown and kept separately, then clearly only one or the other should be affected, but not both.


I have not heard any claims that organically grown foods are processed on different equipment than their non-organic counterparts. Is it your understanding that they are necessarily segregated?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Organic food is about it not being grown or processed with the aid of toxic chemicals. Some of us don't want to eat chemicals that 60-90% of which have been shown to increase cancer risk. Placebo? You be the judge.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I took a class in forensic anthropology towards my degree.
Instructor shared a charming fact. Older people born pre 1940s decay at a faster rate, overall than those born post 1940.
His explanation was there are so many food preservatives in our modern supply the residue slows mortification of the flesh.
You take a breast feeding mother from US or Europe and let her suckle a third world baby. The baby will die from all poisoning we have accumulated in our environments but less so theirs.
The great whales, co alpha animals in the ocean food chain have such massive amounts of mercury in their fatty tissues the japanese people are beginning to see directly related birth defects, yet stubbornly persist in killing whales for 'research.'


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## Relayer (Nov 9, 2005)

Kav said:


> ...
> You take a breast feeding mother from US or Europe and let her suckle a third world baby. The baby will die from all poisoning we have accumulated in our environments but less so theirs.
> ...'


I still say, for one shining moment, this was the luckiest kid on earth.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

All food is organic. It is carbon based.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

pt4u67 said:


> All food is organic. It is carbon based.


Yes, but not all pesticides or fertilizers are. Many preservatives certainly aren't, or if they're organic, they aren't biochemical.

A journalist did an article for National Geographic 3 or so years ago, and he had an extremely exhaustive blood and intracellular trace chemical analysis done - he had something like 1600 toxins present in measurable quantities, from a combination of sources over his life (airborne, ingested, and so on.)

Look at the freakish obesity among children in the US, the alarmingky early onset of puberty, the epidemic rate of Type II diabetes and other metabolic disorders, and it's clear something is critically amiss in the food supply.

Care in food selection may just be a drop in the bucket, but it's a start.

D.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

pweller said:


> I thought that the point of organic was healthy food grown/produced under controlled conditions.


Not really. And I think that's the key to this conversation.

Organic food is grown without pesticides and fertilizers created by laboratories. Processed foods don't contain preservatives or artificial sweeteners.

While organic and non-organic food products probably are somewhat segregated in the manufacturing process (lest someone find traces of an improper chemical in an "organic" batch and lose their certification), it's just as possible for organic peanuts to get contaminated with salmonella as non-organic peanutes. Through the same method - the presence of the bacteria on process equipment.

Generally, organic produce, in my opinion, tastes better. It's also not usually uniformly perfect and you might have to go through half a dozen bell peppers to find one that meets our inflated standards of appearance.


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## SlowE30 (Mar 18, 2008)

I do not eat organic food, but I don't think it's a fraud, either. I think we just don't know. 

Not much is known about the long-term effects of the chemicals we are putting into our bodies, and the way those chemicals react with our bodies during development/childhood. For example, there are conflicting studies about the "phytoestrogens" in soy and their supposed deleterious effect on male testosterone levels. How does soy formula affect male (or female) babies? Does that have anything to do with development of ADD in boys or early puberty in females? 

Girls in Puerto Rico reached puberty at frighteningly early ages due to exposure to certain pesticides. I read somewhere that average male sperm counts have decreased dramatically since the 40's. At one time, we put lead in gas thinking it was a good idea, and today we all have lead levels something like a hundred times greater than before (see Bryson's history of everything).

All that is to say, I doubt this stuff will significantly change your longevity, but it may change who you are and your quality of life, and that's kind of scary. If I ever get married and have some babies, they're eating organic.


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## Crownship (Mar 17, 2008)

I believe the reason many kids reach puberty quicker is due to being overweight.
I believe when kids are fatter something switches in their brain that tells the body it's time to start growing into adulthood.
Many times you'll see girl gymnast that don't start puberty years later than their non gymnast freinds because they're lean.

Most kids are fatter because they have poor diets. Both parents are working so kids eat foods high in fat because it's easy to make.
And without lots of supervision kids will eat more often and many times it's going to be a junk food.
So the kids get fat, the body switches on to start puberty.

Type 2 diabetes many times is a result of being overweight. It has nothing to do with choosing organic food over non organic. 
Obesity is not a disease it's a result of eating more food than your body can burn whether that food is organic or not.

I'm not saying organic food isn't beneficial whether it's vegies or meat ect.
But I also think supplementing your diet with vitamins, minerals and anti oxidants can help the body stay just as healthy whether you ate organic or non organic food.


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## pt4u67 (Apr 27, 2006)

Dhaller said:


> Yes, but not all pesticides or fertilizers are. Many preservatives certainly aren't, or if they're organic, they aren't biochemical.
> 
> A journalist did an article for National Geographic 3 or so years ago, and he had an extremely exhaustive blood and intracellular trace chemical analysis done - he had something like 1600 toxins present in measurable quantities, from a combination of sources over his life (airborne, ingested, and so on.)
> 
> ...


The presence of toxins in one's body does not necessarily imply ill health. Just as my mouth probably contains a whole host of bacteria and I come across many infectious agents throughout the day but have developed immunity to them. Organic foods do use pesticides but a narrower range and therefore qualify as "organic".

As for obesity and type II diabetes, these are indeed due to dietary choices but an organic pizza or organic ice cream or organic chocolate cake can fatten one up just as much as the cheap stuff. Its the choice of foods rather than organic vs. non-organic that matters.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

To add on to Crownship's observation about the onset of puberty...

Children who were born after the development and popularity of triclosan, the main ingredient of antibacterial soap, seem to be much more likely to develop horrible food allergies. I expect this is because their immune systems never got an opportunity to develop a mode of attack against actual germs.


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## the420skipper (Mar 14, 2009)

Here's an article on that very question: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/dining/04cert.html?pagewanted=1&sq=organic food&st=cse&scp=4

Verdict: inconclusive.

As far as I'm concerned, the minor health benefits associated with organic don't justify the price increase.


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## chava (Mar 17, 2009)

some aspects of the organic movement are a crock. It is the new marketing buzz word for food companies to sell products for a premium price. Today I was standing next to a man who was looking at organic honey. What is that..? Organic bees? I don't know, it sounds ridiculous. Anyway, girls are maturing more readily, to some degree, because of the dairy products having so many added hormones. Our girls were raised solely on non-hormone added dairy, including milk & cheese. They have all matured normally. I read this, and have known some who did not make that change, and their kids matured prematurely. So, the term organic requires a bit of self education by the consumer, in order to know when it may be a meaningful distinction.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Miket61 said:


> To add on to Crownship's observation about the onset of puberty...
> 
> Children who were born after the development and popularity of triclosan, the main ingredient of antibacterial soap, seem to be much more likely to develop horrible food allergies. I expect this is because their immune systems never got an opportunity to develop a mode of attack against actual germs.


This is what I've been trying to say forever. Everything is way too antiseptic or sterile now. Granted, hospitals and restaurants SHOULD be, but you get my point.


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## the420skipper (Mar 14, 2009)

Yes. Some schools that required students to wash their hands with Purell or something similar have ceased because it's really just a way to weaken one's immune system.


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## Mr. Golem (Mar 18, 2006)

There's case for organic food and if you can afford it, there's no reason you shouldn't be eating it. The lack of chemicals has been pointed out already, so I won't go over that again. What it all comes down to is that it tastes better. As someone in the food industry, this is the most important thing to me, organic, grassfed, hormone free etc. In Europe it's illegal to farm "non organic" (Not everywhere, but in the EU). You can't use chemicals and I really hope we move towards that in the US. Because again, everything tastes better as a result.


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## brokencycle (Jan 11, 2008)

Crownship said:


> I'm a non organic dude. I haven't seen any reason to switch to organic and increase my food bill $100s a month.
> My simple solution;
> 1-clean food
> 2- cook food
> ...


I agree here. I haven't see the reason to switch.

Also consider that it is less efficient to make organic foods. Those pesticides and such lead to higher crop yields, which in turn means we need less land being farmed to feed everyone. From an economic standpoint organic is not the best choice.


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## GreenPlastic (Jan 27, 2009)

TMMKC said:


> ^+1. I know several people who swear by organic food, but methinks it's just a placebo. I am floored how expensive organic food is. I go into Whole Foods every once in a while for a good chuckle.


The markup on organic foods is a little ridiculous. Sure, it's more costly and risky to produce them, and you can't produce them in as high of quantities. So I understand that they're going to be a little bit more expensive than mass-produced, chemically bathed equivalents. At the same time, there's still a hefty after-cost markup being levied on organic foods.

Organic producers figure that the most likely consumers of organic products are urban and upscale, so they figure they can charge these people more for their food. I'm sure they can, and I'm sure tons of well-heeled urbanites and suburbanites pay dearly for the stuff. But a lot of the markup is, accordingly, pure profit for the sellers.

I try to buy organic when and if I can, for the reasons others have articulated (no chemicals, no hormones, etc.). But I'll buy non-organic if it's the only option available at the time. I'm not so wedded to organic foods that I'll only shop at Whole Foods or something. Sometimes my wallet needs a break.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Mr. Golem said:


> There's case for organic food and if you can afford it, there's no reason you shouldn't be eating it. The lack of chemicals has been pointed out already, so I won't go over that again. What it all comes down to is that it tastes better. As someone in the food industry, this is the most important thing to me, organic, grassfed, hormone free etc. In Europe it's illegal to farm "non organic" (Not everywhere, but in the EU). You can't use chemicals and I really hope we move towards that in the US. Because again, everything tastes better as a result.


+1. There is no comparison between an organic tomato and the supermarket variety. One of them tastes like a tomato should, the other tastes like cardboard.


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## spudnik99 (Apr 27, 2007)

I pick based on taste, and organic usually tastes better.


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## chava (Mar 17, 2009)

Jovan said:


> +1. There is no comparison between an organic tomato and the supermarket variety. One of them tastes like a tomato should, the other tastes like cardboard.


Refrigeration destroys the taste of a tomato. I find that organics do taste better, perhaps because they are not engineered. I find that modern engineering of our produce has taken much of the flavor and maybe even the nutrients out of the items. But much of what I find in the organic category of produce is so poor quality, that I just can't eat alot of the green leafy stuff, especially the lettuce. But tomatoes, squash, etc., are usually better tasting. We have only bought hormone free dairy for our children, and I think it has resulted in a more appropriate maturation of their bodies. So while I like the concept of organic, at least in the produce section, I still gravitate to the regular stuff found in the mainstream grocery chain. I think that some of the other "organic" items in the store are labelled such in order to extract a higher price... profit: Peanut butter for example.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Re: organic food as a "placebo" -- not really.

My mother asked me to taste some vegetables one time. I was really delighted with how much flavour they had. She said they were organic from the farmer's market. This is why I buy organic when I can.


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## Lebewohl (May 21, 2009)

We buy mostly organic mostly because it tastes better. We're less concerned about health risks. We do experience some very mild symptoms from non-organic grapes and strawberries. My girlfriend couldn't digest red meat for the longest time until she started eating grass fed beef. This had very little to do with whether the beef was organic or not other than it seems that only organic producers offer grass fed beef. She tried corn fed organic beef and she still had problems. There are a number of organic produce that have little to no taste difference such as citrus fruits. We never buy organic in those cases.


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## beherethen (Jun 6, 2009)

I wouldn't say fraud, but I do put it in the category of hokum. It's just a marketing ploy.
BTW I also assert there is no difference between cheap aspirin and vodkas and their more expensive cousins.
And don't get me started on bottled water.


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## Pentheos (Jun 30, 2008)

beherethen said:


> I wouldn't say fraud, but I do put it in the category of hokum. It's just a marketing ploy.
> BTW I also assert there is no difference between cheap aspirin and vodkas and their more expensive cousins.
> And don't get me started on bottled water.


I'm in 100% agreement.


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

The labeling of "organic" is not only a newspeak insult to the educated English speaking population, but it is a fraud. Maybe more of a fraud than the labeling of such foods is the insane, ritualistic diefication to such foods by the ignorant people buying them.

Our current society is such a pill-crazy and lost group that they look for these "edges", these footholds on the cliff of life. Afraid of falling into the abyss due to a lack of faith in higher order, they struggle to be healthy and simultaneously drive themselves into sickness and death by putting faith in magic pills and food with magical labeling.

I'm not saying the term "organic" means nothing, but it doesn't mean what the desperate have created around such foods. I definitely am not a fan of genetically modified anything, or hormones, etc. But, marketing these foods as special and mystically superior is just a fraud to get people to buy expensive produce and fuel a bit of corporate greed.

Next year I plan to start my own backyard garden and harvest a fair amount of my own produce. The FDA and USDA are a joke, and like anything run by our federal government--an incompetent excuse for control. You take your chances no matter what you eat or imbibe. Live well, eat well, use moderation, put faith in the right things (not marketing or government labeling).


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