# Altering shirt shoulder width?



## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Is it possible to adjust the shoulder width of a shirt?

I often purchase off-the-peg shirts with the intention of having the chest and waist slimmed.

This involves removing the side seams from the bottom of the shirt all the way up past the arm and to the cuff – then removing several inches of fabric from either side of the body – and then sewing the side seams back together again, in a more appropriate shape.

The slimming alteration therefore also reduces the armhole width of the shirt, in addition to the width of the chest and waist.

I wonder therefore if a skilled shirt tailor would reduce the shoulder width by an inch either side at the same time as undertaking the slimming alteration.

It would presumably involve removing the arm seam all the way around the arm hole – then re-cutting the relevant sections of the upper chest, back and shoulder, and then re-sewing the sleeve to the body.

What do you think? Would a tailor be likely to do this if requested?


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

I believe, from past input from Alexander Kabbaz, that narrowing the shoulders--with the necessity that you've noted of removing the sleeves--is a far bigger job than the slimming from the armholes down by opening up the side seams. In fact, I believe it was concluded that this shoulder-reduction was just not feasible, since it would take the chemisier (or tailor) so much time that it just wouldn't be cost-effective. Perhaps, if Alex isn't too busy frolicking in the Hamptons, he could refresh our understanding of this. :icon_smile_wink:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Anabolic steroids to add the inch to your own shoulders would be cheaper and faster.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Would probably make me look better, too. :icon_pale:


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## Ofishbein (Aug 3, 2005)

Once you go through all that wouldn't it just be easier and less expensive to get MTM?


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Experience has lead me to believe that bespoke shirts are the only way to go. Ordering made to measure almost always results in failure.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

rp. said:


> Experience has lead me to believe that bespoke shirts are the only way to go. Ordering made to measure almost always results in failure.


True bespoke in shirts (I suppose that would make it a _bespoken_ shirt) is very expensive and not commonly available, and is not really necessary to get a good fit. I'm not sure what you are referring to as "made to measure," but true made-to-measure (MTM) should ensure a good fit and always has for me. MTM can be had for much lower prices than bespoke and is widely available--often through stores that carry good quality ready-to-wear shirts. In addition, most cities of any size will have stand-alone MTM shirtmakers who should be able to apply your measurements to their standard patterns and come up with a good-fitting shirt. Their pattern may not be the very best for you, but fit shouldn't be a problem.

There's lots that can be customized to your body size and shape via the MTM process: all major measurements (neck, shoulders, chest, waist, sleeve length, overall length, etc.), presence or absence of a pocket, kind of closure (French front, plackett front, etc.), kind of cuffs, and, if French, whether the corners are square, beveled, or rounded, positioning of buttons (I often have the top one about 1 1/2" below the collar button), type and height of collar and length of points, presence or absence of back pleats that will accommodate different shoulder-blade extensions, and undoubtedly other features I've not thought about this morning. In addition, small changes to the shirtmaker's pattern can also be made (such as adding taper where it would look good). Whereas it's true that the bespoke process (wherein a completely unique pattern is created for you) produces the _ne plus ultra_ of shirts, if the shirtmaker has in his/her supply excellent fabric or you can supply this, there's no reason a really first-class and good-fitting shirt can't be had by the MTM process.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

I apologise for my perhaps inaccurate use of terminology.

I see MTM shirts as shirts which are ordered using measurements which the customer provides. The shirt is then constructed around a base pattern, with the necessary tweaks in the relevant areas, within the allowances available for the pattern.

I see bespoke shirts as being shirts which are measured by an educated tailor. A man who will understand how to make a shirt fit. The shirt will be the correct width throughout the arms, body and shoulders. It would be possible for the shirt to be as slim as the customer desires, without the use of darts.

I generally do not see adequately fitting arms, armholes, or backs with MTM shirts. The pattern is generally, made for the average man, who unfortunately nowadays, would appear to weigh something like 20st.

I don’t think that a truly first class fitting shirt can be obtained through the MTM route. I would suggest that such an excellent fit could only be achieved through the consultation of an expert tailor.

What do you think?


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

True.

Most MtM in London will allow you to pick collar+cuff and mix up body and collar sizes but if you are looking for a slim fit shirt, esp. around the scye, you would need to go bespoke. 
Have you tried the Lewin "fitted" shirts? I think they form part of the "Francombe" range. They are quite trim. I have also heard that he RJ slim cut is fairly trim.

*W_B*


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Without meaning to sound brash... the Lewin's so called 'semi-fitted' shirts are a joke. The Francombe's are a also a complete waist of time.

Fitted? In a 14.5" collar? Not a chance. A waist diameter of 50cm is not fitted. It is not even close. The Francombe shirts still look like tents.

The slimmest shirt I have ever found on the high street is the current Next 'slim fit' shirt in a 14.5" collar. However, the shirts are not provided in a sensible range of fabrics, nor are the collars anywhere near adequate for an adults face or neck balance. Tiny, silly, collars, in terms of business wear.

I have found some success with tailoredshirts.com. It took them five shirts, for of which were returned, before they managed to actually make a shirt to the specifications which I originally provided. It appears to be a game of hit and miss, rather than a service based on actual measurements and stated specifications.

WB, you are right - for proper shape and cut, bespoke appears to be the only way to go.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

whistle_blower71 said:


> True.
> 
> Most MtM in London will allow you to pick collar+cuff and mix up body and collar sizes but if you are looking for a slim fit shirt, esp. around the scye, you would need to go bespoke. *W_B*


Totally disagree. I've had lots of MTM shirts made with exactly the correct measurements incorporated into the pattern. I can have the shirt made as slim as I'd like, with the armhole made as I'd like, etc. Maybe I just have a first-class chemisier, but I doubt that most others can't do this too.

Rp, most good shirtmakers do provide the educated judgments regarding fit to which you refer. Mine, for example, has adjusted the back side pleats to look just right on me and has tweaked the side seams to provide a flattering appearance, etc. Some of the tweaking took an additional shirt or two to fully accomplish and to get the pattern optimized for me, but it has certainly been possible for me without access to a true bespoke chemisier.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

I think Mike Maldonado of San Antonio, Texas, can do full recuts by mail, including work on the shoulder/yoke area.

You can reach him via the Maldonado Custom Shirts website at www.collarreplacement.com

His price is very reasonable, about 12 quid per shirt, exclusive of postage of course.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Roger said:


> True bespoke in shirts (I suppose that would make it a _bespoken_ shirt) is very expensive and not commonly available, and is not really necessary to get a good fit. I'm not sure what you are referring to as "made to measure," but true made-to-measure (MTM) should ensure a good fit and always has for me. MTM can be had for much lower prices than bespoke and is widely available--often through stores that carry good quality ready-to-wear shirts. In addition, most cities of any size will have stand-alone MTM shirtmakers who should be able to apply your measurements to their standard patterns and come up with a good-fitting shirt. Their pattern may not be the very best for you, but fit shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> There's lots that can be customized to your body size and shape via the MTM process: all major measurements (neck, shoulders, chest, waist, sleeve length, overall length, etc.), presence or absence of a pocket, kind of closure (French front, plackett front, etc.), kind of cuffs, and, if French, whether the corners are square, beveled, or rounded, positioning of buttons (I often have the top one about 1 1/2" below the collar button), type and height of collar and length of points, presence or absence of back pleats that will accommodate different shoulder-blade extensions, and undoubtedly other features I've not thought about this morning. In addition, small changes to the shirtmaker's pattern can also be made (such as adding taper where it would look good). Whereas it's true that the bespoke process (wherein a completely unique pattern is created for you) produces the _ne plus ultra_ of shirts, if the shirtmaker has in his/her supply excellent fabric or you can supply this, there's no reason a really first-class and good-fitting shirt can't be had by the MTM process.


Your experience, if not unique, is among the happier results of MTM when it comes to shoulders.

Having owned an MTM shirt company as well as having redesigned the pattern system for Mortimer Levitt's Custom Shop Shirtmakers and having worked for a while with the fellow who designed that system in the first place, I can state this as Gospel:

The base size of an MTM shirt is arrived at by the larger of the shoulder width or chest girth ... and the size of the yoke (shoulder width) is set-in-stone. This dimension determines: the front shoulder seam length, the back shoulder seam length, and is an integral component of the sleeve cap-to-body seam length. As soon as the shoulder (yoke) is altered, changes need to be made to all of the preceding seam lengths. In short, the *entire* key to economic success in the MTM shirt field lies in *not* making any changes to the shoulder width.

Now, I know that you and I have had this discussion before, but them's just the facts of life. If a small, local shirtmaker is willing to violate this rule for you, you are either lucky or a sufficient pain-in-the-derriere that his time in arguing with you is a greater economic hardship ... so as to cause him to shut up and alter the darn shoulder. 

If the shirtmaker is additionally willing to accept supplied fabric and supplied buttons, you're even the better for it. You have my kudos for your tenacity; he has my sympathies.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Thank you for the additional advice.


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## Ofishbein (Aug 3, 2005)

I'm afraid I started this by mentioning the dreaded "MTM". I use Ascot Chang and all I know is that my shirts fit perfectly. I have heard others describe their process as MTM, bespoke, and a combination of both. I don't really care as long as I am happy with the fit.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Your experience, if not unique, is among the happier results of MTM when it comes to shoulders.
> 
> The base size of an MTM shirt is arrived at by the larger of the shoulder width or chest girth ... and the size of the yoke (shoulder width) is set-in-stone. This dimension determines: the front shoulder seam length, the back shoulder seam length, and is an integral component of the sleeve cap-to-body seam length. As soon as the shoulder (yoke) is altered, changes need to be made to all of the preceding seam lengths. In short, the *entire* key to economic success in the MTM shirt field lies in *not* making any changes to the shoulder width.
> 
> ...


Alex, I hear you! I think that things have gone well for me because the work has been done by a small, local shirtmaker, rather than through a larger commercial enterprise like the Zegna MTM program, for example, with whom every minute of work has to pay off. And I think that it was clear from the start that, if the work was done well, there would be many more shirts ordered in the future. For me, getting the shoulders right was my first concern, and I swear that my shirtmaker was smiling the whole time she took my measurements and discussed the proper and desired shoulder width in connection with the first shirt! :icon_smile: This fact made me think that what I was asking, although not necessarily pleasantly intoxicating, was not displeasing. After that first shirt, I assume that she altered her pattern, as all additional ones have been right with respect to that dimension. As for providing the fabric, perhaps it's the fact that I introduced her to Alumo cotton shirtings--and she now has many of their samples and has opened up an account with them in Switzerland--that has made that a non-factor. The buttons were no issue whatsoever. So perhaps she just decided to suck it up in connection with that first shirt to get it as close to right as possible in the knowledge that a second one could be tweaked somewhat towards greater perfection, and that by the third shirt, very little fitting would be needed, as the pattern would by then have been modified to the point that it was as right as possible. I've now had six done by her, and no pre-fitting has been necessary on the last three or four. There still is a brief fitting when most of the work has been done to make sure that the sleeve length is exactly right.

It seems that in Vancouver (a city of more than 2 million people within its greater boundaries), there isn't a true bespoke shirtmaker, and I suspect (although don't know this for a fact) that there aren't any true bespoke tailors either. This fact, as anomalous as it is, just makes bespoke (admittedly a superior process to MTM) out of the question. The trick here is finding a really competent MTM shirtmaker (or suit maker).


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Here is the related thread, which provided the inspiration for this thread:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=602258


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Roger said:


> Alex, I hear you! I think that things have gone well for me because the work has been done by a small, local shirtmaker, rather than through a larger commercial enterprise like the Zegna MTM program, for example, with whom every minute of work has to pay off. And I think that it was clear from the start that, if the work was done well, there would be many more shirts ordered in the future. For me, getting the shoulders right was my first concern, and I swear that my shirtmaker was smiling the whole time she took my measurements and discussed the proper and desired shoulder width in connection with the first shirt! :icon_smile: This fact made me think that what I was asking, although not necessarily pleasantly intoxicating, was not displeasing. After that first shirt, I assume that she altered her pattern, as all additional ones have been right with respect to that dimension. As for providing the fabric, perhaps it's the fact that I introduced her to Alumo cotton shirtings--and she now has many of their samples and has opened up an account with them in Switzerland--that has made that a non-factor. The buttons were no issue whatsoever. So perhaps she just decided to suck it up in connection with that first shirt to get it as close to right as possible in the knowledge that a second one could be tweaked somewhat towards greater perfection, and that by the third shirt, very little fitting would be needed, as the pattern would by then have been modified to the point that it was as right as possible. I've now had six done by her, and no pre-fitting has been necessary on the last three or four. There still is a brief fitting when most of the work has been done to make sure that the sleeve length is exactly right.


 Honest question: With that kind of attention ... and your own pattern ... why do you call it MTM?



Roger said:


> It seems that in Vancouver (a city of more than 2 million people within its greater boundaries), there isn't a true bespoke shirtmaker, and I suspect (although don't know this for a fact) that there aren't any true bespoke tailors either. This fact, as anomalous as it is, just makes bespoke (admittedly a superior process to MTM) out of the question. The trick here is finding a really competent MTM shirtmaker (or suit maker).


 Just rambling ... but I'm not sure a city of 2,000,000 has the critical mass necessary to support a large bespoke shirtmaker. 5MM ... probably.


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## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Honest question: With that kind of attention ... and your own pattern ... why do you call it MTM?


Well, I guess because she started with a stock pattern and just tweaked it, rather than working from the ground up to create a new and unique pattern from my body measurements and shape--the way that you would do it.



Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Just rambling ... but I'm not sure a city of 2,000,000 has the critical mass necessary to support a large bespoke shirtmaker. 5MM ... probably.


That's undoubtedly true. Where it's a little more unusual, perhaps, is the absence of a true bespoke tailor. As I mentioned in the earlier post, I'm not 100% sure of this, but all the tailors I have been directed to have really been MTM--although this hasn't prevented them from portraying their work as having all the earmarks of bespoke!


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

It would be interesting to know if there are any patterns which can start with a 17" width for the shoulders?


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## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

I'm sorry to say, previous posts lead me to believe that your frame simply does not fit in the RTW sizing matrices of the US or England. I highly encourage you to make time to speak with an experienced local shirtmaker.

As delicately as I can say it: according to RTW standards, your shoulders are too narrow for your neckline circumference. RTW sizing studies are based on norms and are segmented by geographic, economic, and other market factors.

Your body shape is so distinctive that you fall into one of the first _outlier_ groups, before the market segments are applied. The statistical norms, and, by virtue, RTW, cannot serve you.

About 5% of the global population are excluded into the first outlier group. So, you're not alone.

Consider: If 5% of the world _needs_ custom tailors. Then, why is the industry shrinking?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

jsprowls9 said:


> If 5% of the world _needs_ custom tailors. Then, why is the industry shrinking?


Too much demand; insufficient talent pool.

Sadly, that just causes the available talent pool to raise its prices. :devil:


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## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

heheh!

I'm doing a market research project for a client right now, trying to find which segment he belongs in. It's a fascinating project! The phone interviews I've been conducting are... colorful to say the least. 

When I ask CMT shops about their current operations model and whether they would consider implementing Lean, they have opinions! Just a couple yrs ago, people pishawed me calling it a fad. They're changing their tunes. They're asking questions. They're trying to educate themselves. Etc.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

A most pleasant visit to the tailors!

In pursuit of altering 'the shirt', I visited my local dry cleaners in the old city area of Bristol.

This the same dry cleaners who recently spent two days shortening the arms of a suit jacket which had working cuff buttons.

The seamstress was more than happy to slim the body. And to my amazement, she was also happy to reduce the shoulders by one inch either side. The arms needed shortening too. So she suggested reducing the arm length by removing the fabric at the top of the arm rather than at the bottom. She suggested it would remove the problem of detaching and reattaching the gauntlet.

The seamstress also pointed out that, because it is a cheaper off-the-peg shirt with a drop shoulder, it would be significantly easier to reduce the shoulder width and make it fall into line with the reduced arm hole measurement and slimmed chest measurement.

All of this, for the sum of £28. And the convenience that they are located only one street away from my office. I am delighted!


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## Bonhamesque (Sep 5, 2005)

Perfect.
All you have to do now is add £28 to the cost of every OTR shirt you buy from now on. ;-)


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Ahem... yes.  

The three additional shirts which I intend to apply this alteration to, are all very nice cottons.

I think I'll start a new thread so that I can show you!


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