# Mormons vs. Southern Baptists



## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

As a Methodist turned Catholic, I find this fairly interesting


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

In college, I had some Baptists tell me I was going to hell because I was baptized as an infant. When our son was baptized our Baptist friends would not attend the ceremony. Our Mormon friends did.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

So ends another episode of "Battle of the Network Theocrats". Huckabee might fly in Iowa, but as soon as he steps outside the Bible Belt he's loses political viability. Romney has the opposite problem: straddled with a religion that many Americans consider to be a wacky cult -- especially in the Bible Belt.

A Mormon friend (I have a few) sent me this link, and said the claims made about the roots and history of Mormonism are accurate:


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Having grown up as one, I can atest that Baptists in general (and Southern Baptists in particular) are the most close minded, judgemental, haters of all things not exactly the way they do it people on the planet. 

Mormons are for the most part 100 times more Christ like than Southern Baptists.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Don't both groups tend to dress nicely, at least by AAAC standards?


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## radix023 (May 3, 2007)

From what I can tell, the fundamental belief that unites Baptists is the belief that if you don't like what you're hearing in church you can and should change churches, starting one if necessary.

I find it a curious theological position.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

I worked with some Mormons. One said that Jesus and Satan are brothers, so that is not Christianity. And out of the four books the Bible is the first they would throw out if they had to and if they could only keep one it would be the Book of Mormon, so that too, says they are not Christians. Most Mormons are very fine people.

Baptists like any other belief certainly has beliefs within certain boundaries. Didn't the Pope resently say that people with the wrong beliefs of salvation are not saved? So why wouldn't Baptists believe that baptizing babeis be false salvation when they believe something else. Having a different belief doesn't make one narrow minded nor a hater anymore than you are, since you don't agree with other beliefs, whatever they are.


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## AMVanquish (May 24, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Don't both groups tend to dress nicely, at least by AAAC standards?


It takes guts to ride around on mountain bikes with a white shirt and a black tie.


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## VC2000 (Feb 10, 2006)

A girlfriend told her very militant Baptist Mother that I was a Mormon when asked what religion I was. My maternal side of the family was Methodist. I believed at the time that Sunday's mornings were better spent in bed. When I met the Mother she started to rally on me about how my religion was a cult. I was rather surprised. About the time the factually limited girlfriend's Mother talked about multiple wives I figured out the error and corrected it. The Mother was somewhat happier but not much. The girlfriend was clueless about such things. (I wasn't dating her for her religious knowledge hubba hubba) The girlfriends said she knew the religion started with an "M" as in Mormon, Methodist or Muslim...not much difference really to her I guess. That always makes me laugh.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

WA said:


> Having a different belief doesn't make one narrow minded nor a hater


What makes one narrow minded (and the very source of spiritual pride, which IMO is the ultimate sin) is the belief that one set of religious dogma is better than another, or (even worse) is better than all others. The Catholics had it right IMO, at least for the first few centuries, but by the time the Nicene Creed was adopted ("one, holy, apostolic church" etc) it was all over, and it was converted from a religion into a political party.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

^^^What a surprize...frank taking cheap shots at Catholics on a thread that has nothing to do with them...


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

^If one believes that one believes in the truth, then something that is contradictory to it cannot be true. That's not narrow minded, that's logic. You might disagree with their assessment of truth, but your basic position seems to be that it's okay to be religious as long as you don't take it seriously.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

AlanC said:


> ^If one believes that one believes in the truth, then something that is contradictory to it cannot be true. That's not narrow minded, that's logic. You might disagree with their assessment of truth, but your basic position seems to be that it's okay to be religious as long as you don't take it seriously.


Veritas? Qui est veritas?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Quid?


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> What makes one narrow minded (and the very source of spiritual pride, which IMO is the ultimate sin) is the belief that one set of religious dogma is better than another, or (even worse) is better than all others. The Catholics had it right IMO, at least for the first few centuries, but by the time the Nicene Creed was adopted ("one, holy, apostolic church" etc) it was all over, and it was converted from a religion into a political party.


Where did the "straight and narrow" come from? The Bible?

Any person or group that comes into power has to deal with the tempation, or be conquered by it. Many by any religion or no religon have been enslaved by the greed of power. So, religion is not the problem, but greed.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

"Didn't the Pope resently say that people with the wrong beliefs of salvation are not saved?"

No, he didn't; although ignorant popular media reported something similar to that.

And the notion that one's religion is true while others are to various degrees false is not logically incompatible with the notion that adherants to other religions can "be saved."


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

WA said:


> I worked with some Mormons. One said that Jesus and Satan are brothers, so that is not Christianity. And out of the four books the Bible is the first they would throw out if they had to and if they could only keep one it would be the Book of Mormon, so that too, says they are not Christians. Most Mormons are very fine people.


If one believes that God, the Father, is the Creator of us all, including Satan, who the Old Testament describes as a fallen angel, how is that NOT Christianity?

While Christ was on the earth he repeatedly preached doctrine contrary to the Old Testament, which makes up more than half the Bible. The Law of Moses, being found in the Old Testament, was replaced by the Law of Christ, as found in the New Testament. That is Christianity. So why would choosing a book that testifies that Jesus is the Christ, as the Book of Mormon does, over another that over half was replaced by the Law Of Christ be anti-Christian? The fact is Mormons accept the Bible, in its entirety, as the word of God and as scripture, so your premise is a false one since no Mormon would ever have to choose between them. Posing such a false premise in a question is a ploy that anti-Mormons utilize because they have nothing else to fall back on.

That you, and others like you, continue to say Mormons are not Christians does not make it so. I have, in my hand, the New testament, as provided to me by a friend and it states, at the bottom, The Gideons International. In the back it provides two steps for becoming a Christian, according to them.

1. Confess to God that I am a sinner, and believing that the Lord Jesus Christ dies for my sins on the cross and was raised for my justification. I do now receive and confess Him as my personal Savior.

I have done every single thing listed in step 1, to the letter.

2. After making your decision to receive Christ, we encourage you to prayerfully seek a local church, congregation, or assembly that will assist you in growing as a new Christian by the clear teaching of the Bible.

Likewise, I did that, and I joined, at age 18, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints (Mormons), after spending the first 18 years as a Catholic.

I always find it funny when people state they have "friends" who are Mormons (you see, this makes them experts on Mormons) and therefore they "know" what Mormons believe. Even more funny is that every time they then proceed to relate what their Mormon friends told them we believe, it is not what we believe, so either they are lying or their friends are lying about really being Mormon.

As a Mormon, I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior and acknowledge that without his grace I could not be saved. PERIOD. I say all my prayers in the name of Christ. PERIOD. Like all other Christians, I await his Second Coming. PERIOD. If you want to call me a non-Christian then you will need to come up with a new definition for Christianity because based on the current definition, I and every other true Mormon qualifies.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Mike Petrik said:


> And the notion that one's religion is true while others are to various degrees false is not logically incompatible with the notion that adherants to other religions can "be saved."


True, however not all religions teach that adherents of other religions will be saved.

Getting back to the pope, he should certainly believe that the Catholic Church and its teachings are correct and true. If he does not he needs to resign.

There's nothing wrong with actually believing in what you believe in.


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

AlanC said:


> There's nothing wrong with actually believing in what you believe in.


Not only is there nothing wrong with believing in what you believe, but if you do not believe in what you believe, then you do not believe in it.


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## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

AlanC said:


> ^If one believes that one believes in the truth, then something that is contradictory to it cannot be true. That's not narrow minded, that's logic. You might disagree with their assessment of truth, but your basic position seems to be that it's okay to be religious as long as you don't take it seriously.


This is a very good, clear and concise point. This logical position is often overlooked or deliberately ignored or just not understood in our relativist and illogical society - and here I include the US and Britain together.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

The Church was and is a direct line of apostolic succession. Early in it's history two great challenges, or heresies rose; Gnosticism and Arianism.Gnosticism taught Christ had left secret knowledge to be revealed to a few select, and that humans pre existed as disembodied souls before birth. Arianism taught that Jesus was a mere creation of God and rejected the Trinity. These challenges to the Gospel were met by the councils of orthodox Christendom that led to the Nicene creed. The 'One holy, catholic and apostolic church' has sadly been in scism over the filioque, which has been resolved, and the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and heir of Saint Peter.The Reformation of Luther led to Protestantism in it's myriad and often Kaotic guises and based forever on the rift with Roman Catholicism. This then, is the temporal body militant of Christianity which numbers itself overall the #1 religon by numbers followed by Islam and Buddhism. My crismation papers into Orthodoxy list my baptism as an Anglican and recognise that one time only baptism as ' filled with grace' as are all recognised christian baptisms. Now let us review the history of LDS, or Mormans. The early 19th century US saw a period of great social and religous turmoil and change. Much of this was centered in New York. Into this center of activity Joseph Smith's family relocated. His father was a farmer and peddler who searched for buried treasure and counterfieted his own money. Joe Jr follwed in his footsteps by leading treasure hunts aided by his hat held magic 'peepstone' and becoming a 34th level Mason. He soon received 'revelations' and, in spite of little formal education claims to have received golden plates in 'reformed egyptian'- a language unrecognised by all egyptologists via spectacles called Urim and Thummim to translate and publish ' the Book of Mormon' largely describing an emmigration of ancient Jews to the New World well before the time, and claimed 34 A.D.visitations of Jesus, though oddly not one scripture in Judaism mentions such a migration, nor has one coin, nail or brick been archaeologicaly identified as such. In fact, many scholars have argued an unpublished manuscript by Soloman Spaulding, a retired Presbeterian minister called 'The Manuscript Found' is the source, a publisher and associate of Smith having access to the work after Spaulding's death. Smith founded his church, and after several affairs with married women, advocating polygamy , fraudulent business deals and the arson of an opposing newspaper found himself in jail, where an angry crowd 'Martyred' Smith in 1844. The 'teachings' of LDS are so out of line with any and all other Christian Churches that not one recognises it as anything more than a cult with strong parallels to both Gnosticism and Arianism. Mormons can call all other Christians 'gentiles' while baptising jewish genocide victims, dress in a Ward Cleaver time warp and denounce homosexuallity while turning a blind eye to child rape in closed communities along the Utah-Arizona border. But to the world body of Christians LDS is no less a cult than the dozens of others who come and go with less TEMPORAL success. And that is also why Mormons retain a seige mentallity that led to the pushcarts to SLC, the Mountain Meadows Massacre and a worldview that anyone not mormon is intrinsically of less or no worth than a Lammanite, or *****. And That is why a Nit Romney and his 5 Melchizedic warrior sons will never sleep in the White House.


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## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

Should I find it odd that I visit several internet boards and of them all this is the only one where arguments about religon and politics are allowed to end up with statements equating to "your belief/opinion is wrong"?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

" This is the real world muchachos, and you are in it." - B.Traven TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE AKAJACK, If you don't have a postion to stand on your treading water, an activity I once managed for 9 hours and 12 minutes.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

AlanC said:


> ^If one believes that one believes in the truth, then something that is contradictory to it cannot be true. That's not narrow minded, that's logic. You might disagree with their assessment of truth, but your basic position seems to be that it's okay to be religious as long as you don't take it seriously.


No, that's not my position. My issue isn't seriousness (almost all religions consider themselves to be serious), but only arrogance and spiritual pride. You know, the way some Jews believe they're the only chosen children of God, the way some Muslims believe all non-Muslims are "infidels", the way some Christians believe all non-Christians are doomed to eternal hell. Etc.

Religious beliefs are by definition objectively unprovable. The veracity of a person's religious beliefs ends at the tip of his or her nose. Insist your set of religious beliefs are truer than someone else's (or everyone else's) and what you have, again by definition, is politics and not religion.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> No, that's not my position. My issue isn't seriousness (almost all religions consider themselves to be serious), but only arrogance and spiritual pride. You know, the way some Jews believe they're the only chosen children of God, the way some Muslims believe all non-Muslims are "infidels", the way some Christians believe all non-Christians are doomed to eternal hell. Etc.
> 
> Religious beliefs are by definition objectively unprovable. The veracity of a person's religious beliefs ends at the tip of his or her nose. Insist your set of religious beliefs are truer than someone else's (or everyone else's) and what you have, again by definition, is politics and not religion.


Frank:

As I have repeatedly stated here, I am an agnostic. The only reason I do not declare athiesm is I think that too would require a leap of faith, just like a religion. That said, let me ask you this. If you do not think your set of beliefs are truer than everyone else's, why in the hell hold your set of beliefs? I believe anyone that does not feel they are in the right is an idiot, because if your way is not the single and solitary closest way to the "truth", you are moronic for holding the position.

To hold the position that all "truths" are equal is idiotic. The question of accepting other people have different beliefs from you is a totally different topic.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> Religious beliefs are by definition objectively unprovable. The veracity of a person's religious beliefs ends at the tip of his or her nose. Insist your set of religious beliefs are truer than someone else's (or everyone else's) and what you have, again by definition, is politics and not religion.


They may be unprovable, but some of them are clearly falsifiable. (E.g., the world stands on the back of a giant turtle, American Indians are descended from ancient Israelites, the earth is the center of the universe.)

Still, Frank, I think you're overlooking a pretty obvious fact: religions make claims about the nature of the universe and reality, and a maximum of one of them is true. Why is it strange for the adherents of any religion to act as though their beliefs are correct?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> Still, Frank, I think you're overlooking a pretty obvious fact: religions make claims about the nature of the universe and reality, and a maximum of one of them is true. Why is it strange for the adherents of any religion to act as though their beliefs are correct?


I wonder what the temperature in Hell is today, as Jack has perfectly articulated the concept in my prior post.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> To hold the position that all "truths" are equal is idiotic.


And that's the truth.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Not all truths are equal. But we can find grace in their articulation with equal hope and opportunity for salvation, Nirvana, entrance into Vallhalla etc. The guy in a black polyester suit, duckbilled shoes and matching tie and pocketsquare hasn't grasped the full 'truth..' But he's trying.


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## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

Oh, i have an opinion. It just seems like forums set up for a specific hobby, that also have an outlet for the members to blast each other to pieces, ends up tearing apart the relationship originally built by the love of the hobby.



Kav said:


> " This is the real world muchachos, and you are in it." - B.Traven TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE AKAJACK, If you don't have a postion to stand on your treading water, an activity I once managed for 9 hours and 12 minutes.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

I understand, and agree with your point. I even PMed Andy once suggesting the Interchange be dropped completely. But if people disseminate views and information, a polite way of describing this forum's temper, the natural, the only possible reaction is to reply in kind.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

FrankDC said:


> No, that's not my position. My issue isn't seriousness (almost all religions consider themselves to be serious), but only arrogance and spiritual pride. You know, the way some Jews believe they're the only chosen children of God, the way some Muslims believe all non-Muslims are "infidels", the way some Christians believe all non-Christians are doomed to eternal hell. Etc.
> 
> Religious beliefs are by definition objectively unprovable. The veracity of a person's religious beliefs ends at the tip of his or her nose. Insist your set of religious beliefs are truer than someone else's (or everyone else's) and what you have, again by definition, is politics and not religion.


Did you fry your brains on drugs?

One way or another you do the same thing you accuse others of doing. And, so often the accused is not doing what the accuser claims.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> They may be unprovable, but some of them are clearly falsifiable. (E.g., the world stands on the back of a giant turtle, American Indians are descended from ancient Israelites, the earth is the center of the universe.)


The jury is still out on at least one of those beliefs, maybe two. According to our current best info we believe the universe is four dimensional, therefore the "center" of the universe is inside each of us. And if beings are sitting on a planet 10 billion light-years away, they're seeing the exact same space-time distances in all directions that we see. The "center" of the universe isn't any more or less inside them.



jackmccullough said:


> Still, Frank, I think you're overlooking a pretty obvious fact: religions make claims about the nature of the universe and reality, and a maximum of one of them is true. Why is it strange for the adherents of any religion to act as though their beliefs are correct?


Belief in a supreme being or higher powers is consistent across nearly all religions, and the central goal of nearly all religions is to cultivate a relationship with this being or these powers. I think it's self-evident this relationship can exist irrespective of any particular religion.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

whomewhat said:


> If one believes that God, the Father, is the Creator of us all, including Satan, who the Old Testament describes as a fallen angel, how is that NOT Christianity?...


To call me a lair is not very nice. To call them lairs when they grew up in the Mormon Church and did there 1 year missionary term is not very nice either. Perhaps there are different beliefs among Mormons? The statement above you do not clearly say that Jesus is the only Christ and is God the creator of Satan. This Mormon that said Jesus and Satan are brothers said that we will be equal to them as they are now. Christianity says that we the creation will never be equal to the Creator. Who is the Creator? The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So, the Son and Satan can not be brothers. Jesus is the Son and the Christ.

The Gideons International also believe in repentance, which includes agreeing with God on what sin is. No repentance = no salvation. And, did you not ask God to show or tell you which Church to go to? Any group can claim to be a church but, does God agree?

The man who invent Mormonism said that an angle taught him everything, or most of it (sounds like Islam), so I hear- do you say this is wrong? All the Books of the Bible say God said, and none are are based on angel said.

I was also told that the Mormons believe in three heavens. To get in the best heaven one must be married in one of the 3 Mormon Temples. Christainity believes in only one heaven. Perhaps you can explain the three heavens?


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> *They may be unprovable, but some of them are clearly falsifiable. (E.g., the world stands on the back of a giant turtle,* American Indians are descended from ancient Israelites, the earth is the center of the universe.)
> 
> Still, Frank, I think you're overlooking a pretty obvious fact: religions make claims about the nature of the universe and reality, and a maximum of one of them is true. Why is it strange for the adherents of any religion to act as though their beliefs are correct?


Yeah, well how does the earth rotate around the sun without the turtle?


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

WA said:


> To call me a lair is not very nice.


And you think atacking my faith is better?



WA said:


> To get in the best heaven one must be married in one of the 3 Mormon Temples.


Actually, there are currently 124 temples worldwide, with another dozen or so under construction. So much for your source of information about MY faith.



WA said:


> Christainity believes in only one heaven.


No, Christianity is a belief in Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world. Just about every single church in existence has varying interpretations of doctrine, hence, the reason there is not a single Christian faith.



WA said:


> Perhaps you can explain the three heavens?


I could, but neither you or the other anti-mormons posting here are really interested. I could also spend all day tearing apart your faith, whatever it might be, but that is also not productive and is the exclusive purview of others. Instead of running around spreading rumors about what you think I and other faithful members of my church believe why don't you stick to what you believe and the basis of your faith. No one every built anything of any worth by tearing others down.

The reason our faith is so successful in its missionary work (By the way, it is a 2 year mission for young men and 1.5 years for young women, not 1 as your "friends" told you, and I served 2 years in Brasil, so you can take that to the bank) is because we spend our time telling you about our faith, not tearing down others. Conversely, it seems that many here can only tell me what they think they know about my faith, think I believe, and what is wrong with it, yet they cannot utter a single positive word about why I or anyone esle would want to belong to their faith. If the hatred spewed here about my faith is any example, and if indeed I am going to hell for it, Iwould rather spend eternity in hell with my Mormon faithful than an eternity in heaven with you paragons of kindness.

Kav, you are proof that some can be experts on absolutely nothing while claiming and believing to be experts in just about everything. I, for one, am rather tired of your superiority complex. Get over yourself already. I knew this would degenerate into an anti-Mormon thread the moment I saw the title and I also knew that good ol' Kav would chime in with his usual useless nonsensical double talk. You are my hero Kav, truly, a mans man, at least in your own imagination.


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> The reason our faith is so successful in its missionary work (By the way, it is a 2 year mission for young men and 1.5 years for young women, not 1 as your "friends" told you, and I served 2 years in Brasil, so you can take that to the bank) is because we spend our time telling you about our faith, not tearing down others.


"The problem with people who want to tell me about their religion is, they never want to hear about mine."

Any way you slice it, "missionary work" amounts to political campaigning for one's church. If no one contributes money to a church, the church ceases to exist. It's been this way for three millenia. Do you really suppose people's ability to communicate and have a relationship with God depends on the existence of a particular church? What religion did Adam and Eve subscribe to?


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Christ instructed his Apostles to go out and preach the gospel to the world. I hardly think that made them politicians, but I appreciate that you offered an opinion without attacking my faith. Proof, I suppose, that it is possible to have an opinion without basing your opionion on the destruction of another's beliefs.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Poor Whomewhat, I post information that can be independantly checked and instead of countering even one point you terminate your participation faster than a missionary approached by transvestite hookers. Your cult has methodically met any inquiry or questioning, even from within it's own community with all the finese of musk oxen forming a circle. I really don't care what you people do behind closed temple doors with your ersatz mason rituals. But to claim to be Christian with such patent distortions of the Gospel and teachings in both Judaism and Christianity makes micronesian cargo cults, devotees to the god Hilarion and The Church of Jane Mansfield in the New Atomic Age ( based in Del Rio Texas) eminently more rational.


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Kav said:


> Poor Whomewhat, I post information that can be independantly checked and instead of countering even one point you terminate your participation faster than a missionary approached by transvestite hookers.


Since your pathetic little diatribe, I have made several postings in this thread. Thus, your assertion that I "terminate[d] [my] participation faster than a missionary approached by transvestite hookers" is as baseless and useless as most eveything else you say. I wish you would publicly state, for the record, exactly what faith you adhere to so that all of us will know exactly what one can expect from a member of your church. "By there fruits shall ye know them."

I have always had the utmost respect for the military and, now, with two sons serving in the military that repect is far more personal. That said, if you are any indication of what it means to be a member of the US Coast Guard, well, I can only be glad I no longer live near the coast. "By there fruits shall ye know them."


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

For those of you who have written to the moderators I say the following:

You may have strong disagreement with Kav's post. Nonetheless, it is based in *purported *facts and *no *personal attacks against members of this Forum are made.

Of course, all are welcome to dispute *purported *facts and disagree with opinions or beliefs. Personal attacks against members remain out of bounds.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> What religion did Adam and Eve subscribe to?


Why, Roman Catholicism, of course. :devil:


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Kav said:


> Poor Whomewhat, I post information that can be independantly checked and instead of countering even one point you terminate your participation faster than a missionary approached by transvestite hookers.


Kav, I know your ego may have a difficult time accepting this, but the mere fact that you state something to be true does not make it so. I hereby refute everything you said, as all of it is pure nonesense. I will not engage you beyond this because their is no point in doing so and I will not stoop to your level by criticizing the faiths of other members.

You wrote: "And That is why a Nit Romney and his 5 Melchizedic warrior sons will never sleep in the White House."

If you beleive that Mitt Romney's faith disqaulifies him from being President, then you belong in England under English rule, as your bigotry is exactly why our Founding Father provided for a seperation of church and state. Your unsupported hate-filled diatribe is the ugliest form of bigotry and should be shouted down by any true American, whatever faith they may be. That you are still tolerated here is, frankly, evidence of a much more widespread bigotry and that saddens me far more than your hateful words. Your post, as most of them do, only served to hurt people and anyone who engages in conduct whose only purpose is hate and hurt is beneath contempt. You cannot justify a wanton, immoral act simply because you believe it is connected to some higher purpose.

Christianity is far more than professing a belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer. Christ spent his entire time on this earth preaching peace, kindness, and charity. Are your words Christlike?

1 Cor. 13: 1-13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become _as_ sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have _the gift of_ prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed _the poor,_ and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, _and_ is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether _there be_ prophecies, they shall fail; whether _there be_ tongues, they shall cease; whether _there be_ knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these _is_ charity.

Luke 2: 7-14

7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

12 And this _shall be_ a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Ironic, Kav, that during the Christmas Season you would spew such hatred and bigotry, contrary to the message found in the birth of Christ:

"good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."

"on earth peace, good will toward men."

You can have your form of Christianity, the Gospel of hatred and bigotry, and I will take mine.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

My introduction to Mormons was via barrackmates HM 3 Calvin W. Kingston, a cajun convert who crawled out of a tinroofed zydeco bar and into a stake to dry out and FN 2 Roger McAllister, this Provo kid who clapped his hands and ran around cheering when Gary Gilmore was executed. I took both into my barracks room when nobody else would room with them, thinking on my statue of kanon, or Kuen-yin, buddha of compassion and mercy. I accepted C.W.'s invitation to attend services and attend a monday night family home evening for single servicepeople. And in short order Denise Miller, looking like a Cretian snake goddess with her upturned nose, pop eyes and ample bosom decided we were going to date. And in even shorter order I was face to face with two missionaries sitting in my barracks room with their flip flop book. And within a few weeks a chance conversation with a navy bosun at Alameda Naval Airstation revealed Denise was dating him, and Oh, did you know she's engaged to a guy on the Enterprise? The number of 'investigators' Denise was pulling the mormon girl trip on ( date'em, dunk 'em and dump'em) tallied out at 5 when she got knocked up by a RM. She claimed rape and one by one 5 men were called into Navy,Marine and Coast Guard JAG offices at the demand of the local Bishoprick. Her brave RM fessed up and they went off to make 12 celestial spirits or whatever you call it in between the RM selling life insurance. 5 men very nearly went to the brig.The Bishoprick still insisted we write complete 'confessions' of our debauching Denise to her state of irresponsibility When I finally breathed free old C.W. and Roger had unceremoniously dumped my seabag and personal effects in the hallway and smashed kanon. The base exec responded by transfering both to sea duty. So there's 2 good mormon coasties for you. I've got my DD214, and I'll match it anytime,anywhere against anybodys. But not Roger's. He committed statutary rape with a 12 y/o filipina girl . The Bishoprick didn't have any gentiles to blame for that on. I made it a point to research LDS after that episode.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

whomewhat-
kav's commentary notwithstanding, in the theological discussions I've had with a LDS friend of mine, I've found great commonality in the basics of our understandig of God and salvation. That said, there are various doctrinal and theological differences that make Mormonism unique as compared to the other Protestant faiths. Although my understanding of LDS is far from complete, I am curious as to weather you believe in a Triune God ( one God in three persons , Father , Son and Holy Spirit). We, ( the Roman Catholic church) do not recognize LDS baptisms and I'd like some clarification on this point.
That said, I've found LDS folks I've met both here and in Utah to be decent and genuinely nice people and I, for one, wish you well. ( sorry to hear that you "jumped ship" though :icon_smile_wink


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## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Kav,

Utilizing your logic, then, the entire Catholic church and its members are doomed given the documented behavior of a few bad priests.

First, given the hated-filled diatribe you wrote earlier, I would not believe anything that ever came out of your mouth, so even if your little story is true, you have condemned it to the trash heep since your behavior reflects upon your credibility. You have none.

I was born, baptized, and raised Catholic. I attended, first, a Jesuit-run and Nuns of Notre Dame-taught Catholic elementary school. During that time, I was also an altar boy and later sacristan, the head altar boy, a position I held for two years. I then attended an all boys, Jesuit-run College Preparatory. During my junior year, while taking a class entitled "Church Doctrine," the kind priest who taught the class, a graduate of Harvard University no less, taught doctrine that I could not come to terms with. I sought out and found the LDS church.

At 21 I decided to go on a mission for my church. Upon leanring I would do this, my Catholic parents threw me out of the house where upon I was taken in by a kind LDS family. After my mission, marriage, and children of my own, I experienced bigotry on a large scale when my oldest son was repeatedly persecuted by his classmates at the public school he attended. After repeated beatings by these non-LDS "Christian" thugs, I enrolled my son at the same Catholic elementary school I had attended as a child. His teacher, the only non-lay person at the school, Sister Anne Marie, told me during a conference that: "Your son is the most Christian of all the children I have in my class. It is difficult for me to understand why he was bullied so much in the other school, as the children here just love him."

In 1995 my mother passed away. My employees gathered up almost $500 and gave it to me (I have never understood why they gave me money for my mother's passing). I took it to my mother's parish, knocked on the rectory door, and asked to see the pastor. I introduced myself and he indicated that he knew who I was and was sorry for my loss. I gave him the money and told him the following: "I do not believe for a second that prayers said on behalf of the dead do them any good, rather, it is how we lead our lives while on this earth that matters. However, this money was collected for my mother and she did believe in having masses said for those who have died, so, in her honor, please say as many masses as this will buy or do whatever else you think might be appropriate." His eyes welled up and he said to me: "Your mother and father came to talk to me once about you and your faith. They told me how they had disowned you for it. I told them that they were wrong. I told them that if you ever thought that you son might one day return to Catholicism you have insured that he never will as you are the examples of Catholiciscm he knows best."

After the revelations came out regarding a few bad priests, which was highly publicized in the papers, I wrote a letter to the editor that they decided to publish under the title: "Former Mormon Missionary Defends Catholicism." I related my years as an altar boy, sacristan, and student at an all-boys Jesuit-run college preparatory. I commented that if ever a priest had wanted to take advantage of a young boy, mine was the perfect opportunity, but in all the years of attending Catholic schools, 12 altogether, no Jesuit priest had ever been anything less than kind to me, including the pastor who counseled me at my mother's passing. I remarked that a few bad priests, even many, and even institutionalized cover-ups of this misconduct, does not make all Catholic priests bad nor does it reflect on Catholics as a whole. It reflects on the evil behavior of those who participated in the acts publicly revealed.

No one has more reason to hate Catholics and Catholicism than do I, with the exception of those who were abused by bad priests, but I do not judge all by the behavior of a few nor can I forget all of the kindness that was extended to me over the years by both the Jesuits and Nuns of Notre Dame. Everyone has a negative story about one institution or another, just as everyone has a good story, if they choose to look. I choose to look for the good because their are just far too many looking for the bad.

Your past experience, if true, does not justify your current acts of bigotry and hatred. As stated earlier, you cannot justify a wanton, immoral act simply because you believe it is connected to a higher purpose. Your words, and actions, stand on their own, irrespective of any experiences you may have previously had. The poor behavior of those you speak of, even if true, do not justify your equally poor behavior here.

If you did in fact research the LDS church after your experiences, as you state, it is rather clear you did so with rose-colored glasses on and a predisposition to judge us badly. If any of what you say is true, then you are wrong, those are not "2 good Mormon coasties," rather, those are 2 bad Mormons who will have to answer to God for their sins. You mentioned an individual from Provo who clapped at the execution of a man and who later raped a little girl and seem to suggest that is indicative of the LDS faith. It is no more indicative of the LDS faith than the conduct of some bad priests is of the Catholic faith. Neither does the conduct of one of Jesus's Apostles, Judas Iscariat, reflect on the character of the other 11 apostles of the day. You seem to adhere to the premise that others are responsible for the actions of a few and I reject such doctrine and accept responsibility for my own actions and my own sins, not yours and certainly not any bad members of my faith, of which there no doubt are, just as their are of any faith.

Your past bad experiences do not give you the right to spew hatred towards everyone or anyone else and a hundred stories like the one you just shared will not change that.

Now, I have to find a way, 4 days before we celebrate the birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ, to try and forget all of the hateful things you have said this day. You are free to continue to bash me all you want, but for the sake of peace on earth and good tidings to all men, I'm going to spend the rest of this Holiday Season with my family, and not here getting pummeled by anti-Mormon bigots.


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

I find it distasteful to attack another persons Religion, and even worse with dubious facts.

I'm Jewish and not very religious. I can only speak anecdotally of my experiences. I've found Mormons that I've encountered to be wonderful neighbors and co-workers. They are almost always very family oriented, hard working, and clean living. Much more so than the Southern Baptists that I've known( and I'm in Houston, Tx., home of many super Churchs).

Does that mean that Mormons are better neighbors or workers than Southern Baptists. Of course not, just my experiences.

I'll also say that per what many have said in this thread GWB would be a Christian and Mitt Romney would not. Well I'm a Republican, and give me Romney any day. I would vote for Romney in a heartbeat, and I think that bigots that wouldn't vote for him (solely because he's a Mormon), are shortchanging themselves.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I think all you deity worshipers are nuts 

Let the agnostic tell you guys it's a much to cheery time of year to be so rancorous. Why do we all not display some holiday cheer and cease the personal attacks?


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Telling how you use copious sola scriptura from the Bible and not Doctrines and Covenants or The Pearl of Great Price.Could it be my references might, just might draw critical thought about the fundamental base of mormonism? I could care less about the daily affairs of you later day s%*theads. The problem is you insist on intruding on mine. You as a distinct group endangered my personal privacy and individual humanity once. I feel utterly no morally compelling argument to back down from you bigots ever again; not walking in my apartment complex, driving across the beehive state without a BOM displayed on the dashboard in case I'm stopped for a driving violation and certainly not online when the computer programme sold next to the bulk rice alerts computer users a reference to Mormons has been posted so you can load your Mountain Meadows commemorative Winchester . Note I have NEVER initiated a thread regarding Mormons. But once breached I'll put in my observations, free of either rose coloured glasses or your magik spectakles for translating reformed egyptian like your huckster patriarch. Put that in your Hawaiian punch.


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## rnoldh (Apr 22, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> I think all you deity worshipers are nuts
> 
> Let the agnostic tell you guys *it's a much to cheery time of year to be so rancorous.* Why do we all not display some holiday cheer and cease the personal attacks?


+1

The only people acting Christian on this thread are the Agnostics and the so called cultists. Kind of ironic:icon_smile:


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

rnoldh said:


> +1
> 
> The only people acting Christian on this thread are the Agnostics and the so called cultists. Kind of ironic:icon_smile:


Hey, who'd I razz! ( Must be a cultist tho...)


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

whomewhat said:


> And you think atacking my faith is better?


Didn't intend to come across as attacking. By saying that Mormon is not Christain is not attacking. You have presented no poof otherwise.



> Actually, there are currently 124 temples worldwide, with another dozen or so under construction. So much for your source of information about MY faith.


It was back in the 80's when I worked with these guys. Even the owner of the company was Mormon. I don't know how many temples there were back then. Ownly three of them mattered back then about going to the best haven.



> No, Christianity is a belief in Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world. Just about every single church in existence has varying interpretations of doctrine, hence, the reason there is not a single Christian faith.


If a group of Buddha decided to be Christians and keep Buddha and said "Christianity is a belief in Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world" would you believe they are Christians? What does this mean "Christianity is a belief in Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world"? There are now some "Protestant" groups out that have athiest as "preachers" and "theologians" who claim to be Christians, but they have no God and they will quote "Christianity is a belief in Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world", too, because it sounds Christain and they will have some way to explain it. Excluding things within the boundaries and including things outside the boundaries puts one in a different religion. From my veiw point from Mormons, ex Mormons and non Mormons they are clearly a different religion. Is the terminology the same? Perhaps you should go to some Protestant and other churchs and hear what they say about the boundaries of Christianity. You might agree that Christianity and Mormon is not the same.



> If the hatred spewed here about my faith...


Is it hate or distrust?


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## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> Now, I have to find a way, 4 days before we celebrate the birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ, to try and forget all of the hateful things you have said this day. You are free to continue to bash me all you want, but for the sake of peace on earth and good tidings to all men


For the sake of peace and good tidings to all men, celebrate the birth of YOUR savior, Jesus Christ. And realize people who live according to the dictates of their consciences can and do make it into heaven without his help:

"Healthy people *don't need a doctor* - sick people do." (Matt. 9:12)


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

FrankDC;675863
"Healthy people [B said:


> don't need a doctor[/b] - sick people do." (Matt. 9:12)


Have you seen one recently? For your soul, I mean.

Merry Christmas, Francis.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> "Healthy people *don't need a doctor* - sick people do." (Matt. 9:12)


So I guess you are against preventive medicine and well-baby care? Or am I mis-reading you? :crazy:


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Religions often attack other religions for fear of losing power/adherents/tithes/tribute. Nothing new there.


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