# Is This Why Johnny Can't Read, Write, or Add?



## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

I came across this in the local paper. Are there really schools like this elsewhere? It sounds like madness.


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## GenteelCountryman (Mar 2, 2013)

What does this sentence in the article mean:

*The only requirements for admission would be that a student wants to be there and is able to self-regulate.*

Who determines their ability to self-regulate? Can we vote to have an hour-and-a-half lunch? Can we exchange PE for Algebra?

I understand the need for kids to be self-motivated. In my years at university, I saw many didn't make the grade because of a lack of self-motivation. However, I am not sure voting on the rules would qualify.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

We live in a society whose egalitarian impulse is so well-developed that it is willing to treat adults like children and children like adults. This will not end well.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

GenteelCountryman said:


> *The only requirements for admission would be that a student wants to be there and is able to self-regulate.*


I have no idea what that means GCM.

To be fair, there were a lot of things in the article that left me equally flummoxed.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Suggesting algebra should be dropped from curricula, not because it is unimportant to education - because it is hard.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

rsgordon said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Suggesting algebra should be dropped from curricula, not because it is unimportant to education - because it is hard.


I cannot believe that the NYT thought that this was worthy of serious consideration or discussion.


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Madness?? You must be referring to the public schools in this country today. I hope this new idea works.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

blue suede shoes said:


> Madness?? You must be referring to the public schools in this country today. I hope this new idea works.


I hope so too, but it won't. I serve as a trustee for two private schools and am not remotely a fan of public education, but not every new idea is a good one just because it comes from a private school. Treating seven year olds like little grown-ups is stupid.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Mike Petrik said:


> I hope so too, but it won't. I serve as a trustee for two private schools and am not remotely a fan of public education, but not every new idea is a good one just because it comes from a private school. Treating seven year olds like little grown-ups is stupid.


Agreed.


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## roman totale XVII (Sep 18, 2009)

Mike Petrik said:


> I hope so too, but it won't. I serve as a trustee for two private schools and am not remotely a fan of public education, but not every new idea is a good one just because it comes from a private school. Treating seven year olds like little grown-ups is stupid.


Some friends of ours in NY spend a bunch of money of every year to send their son to some supposedly progressive private school - might be a Montessori or something. He's now eight and still can't read and can barely write his own name. They are starting to reconsider their choice...


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## Estel (Feb 2, 2013)

The Sudbury Valley system has apparently had good results. 
Don't underestimate children's curiosity and desire to learn when it hasn't been squelched out of them by typical school making learning boring.

I don't think I know anyone who's been in the Sudbury Valley system personally, or who's had their kids in it. But I do know quite a few people who have been home educated in largely self-directed ways (i.e., few-to-no formal lessons), and have come out well-informed, educated, and thoughtful.

One person I know who had a largely self-directed education might at first have seemed to support the idea that it would handicap people and turn out people who can't read or write or do math. However, in time things turned out quite well. This person didn't really learn to read competently until they were 10 or 11. Within a year, they were reading and loving Jane Austen.

Would they have learnt to read sooner in a typical school system? Maybe. Or maybe they would have been behind, and have either failed to keep up with reading and other schoolwork, or had tedious extra instruction that made them hate learning. They obviously came out fine in the end.

An emblematic Calvin and Hobbes comic, though of course comics don't prove anything:
https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1994/05/22


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## Snikerz (Sep 19, 2011)

This has got to be one of the worst ideas I've heard in a long time. The public school system does need change but I just can't fathom how this system will work.


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## Chouan (Nov 11, 2009)

In the French system, at least until recently, kids don't learn to read or write until they're 7. Similar age in Finland. Yet in both cases overall academic achievement by the time they're 11 is superior to countries that teach literacy at 5.
There is a very sound argument that boys' fine motor skills are not sufficiently developed until the age of 7 or 8 to allow them to write without difficulty, both mental and physical, whilst girls are ready at about 6. On the other hand, girls can't throw accurately until they're about 8 or 9, whereas boys have better gross motor skills. Essentially our education system trains boys to fail and to know that they're failing. Neat handwriting is applauded; boys can't do it, so they are failing. Neatness in appearance is applauded; boys can't do it, so are failing. Sitting still and being compliant is applauded; boys can't do these things easily, so are seen as failing, by teachers, usually female, and themselves.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Chouan said:


> In the French system, at least until recently, kids don't learn to read or write until they're 7. Similar age in Finland. Yet in both cases overall academic achievement by the time they're 11 is superior to countries that teach literacy at 5.
> There is a very sound argument that boys' fine motor skills are not sufficiently developed until the age of 7 or 8 to allow them to write without difficulty, both mental and physical, whilst girls are ready at about 6. On the other hand, girls can't throw accurately until they're about 8 or 9, whereas boys have better gross motor skills. Essentially our education system trains boys to fail and to know that they're failing. Neat handwriting is applauded; boys can't do it, so they are failing. Neatness in appearance is applauded; boys can't do it, so are failing. Sitting still and being compliant is applauded; boys can't do these things easily, so are seen as failing, by teachers, usually female, and themselves.


My experience is consistent with this. There are many solutions, but one simple step in the right direction would be to start schooling for boys one year later than girls.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

Mike Petrik said:


> My experience is consistent with this. There are many solutions, but one simple step in the right direction would be to start schooling for boys one year later than girls.


Anecdotally, I see a lot of parents doing this. Whether intentional or not, there seem to be a lot of "older" boys in my sons' classes.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

blue suede shoes said:


> Madness?? You must be referring to the public schools in this country today.


My quibble here is that you're painting with a broad brush. Every school district in the country is different. Whether that is a good or bad thing, is another issue, but there are plenty of excellent school districts in the country.


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

My solution is not viable in today's political climate for PC and budget reasons. 

The PC sin is that not everyone is created equal. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses. We don't need and shouldn't want a one size fits all (we clearly don't with clothing here either). We should be able to allow different children to start at reasonably different times and probably with different teaching strategies. 

As for the financial impossibility of my plan, it should be obvious.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

rsgordon said:


> My solution is not viable in today's political climate for PC and budget reasons.
> 
> The PC sin is that not everyone is created equal. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses. We don't need and shouldn't want a one size fits all (we clearly don't with clothing here either). We should be able to allow different children to start at reasonably different times and probably with different teaching strategies.
> 
> As for the financial impossibility of my plan, it should be obvious.


But that is why parenting is so important. You're right that customizing education in the schools is impossible, but the parents at home do have the opportunity to identify gaps and gifts...and then filling them or helping them blossom, respectively. It's hard work, but no one said parenting would be easy.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I came across this in the local paper. Are there really schools like this elsewhere? It sounds like madness.


This reminds me of a quote on Marxism: "It's the perfect form of government, provided of course that everyone agrees on everything all of the time. I forget, when did that last happen?" Seems like the slightest disruption in Arcadia there, and it's back to teacher running the show. And anyone who anticipates full cooperation by kids either never was one or met one.

I sort of see where the "no algebra" guy is going, my little small town school had a lot of fairly bright dropouts who saw no need for "academic" curricula (and have done okay in their lives), but, as rsgordon points out, the alternative is far beyond anything this country would pay for. Not to mention, any suggestion of a "practical" curriculum these days (which might have plenty of math, but not e.g. advanced algebra or calculus) is referred to as "tracking", and the Self Certified Officious Victims Advocates will be up in arms to combat the "discrimination"


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## Zakk (Aug 4, 2011)

This sounds like something I would've liked as a kid, but now view as madness. Thanks for sharing.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> I cannot believe that the NYT thought that this was worthy of serious consideration or discussion.


There is no such thing as stupid questions/discussions.

All dumb ideas must be given equal time!!


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

WouldaShoulda said:


> All dumb ideas must be given equal time!!


Sorry. I forgot.

Note to self: Need more indoctrination. Watch more Al Sharpton on MSNBC...


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## rsgordon (Dec 6, 2012)

You can also spend more time watching that angry young man they have.


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

rsgordon said:


> You can also spend more time watching that angry young man they have.


Good try. It took all my willpower to not say the punch line...


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## blue suede shoes (Mar 22, 2010)

Snow Hill Pond said:


> My quibble here is that you're painting with a broad brush. Every school district in the country is different. Whether that is a good or bad thing, is another issue, but there are plenty of excellent school districts in the country.


Yes, unfortunately I am painting with a very broad brush, but I do mean what I say. I believe that there are many flaws in our nation's schools, and that those flaws are prevalent in all school systems. How do you define what an excellent school district is? By test scores? I don't; I look at things differently and in my humble opinion, they are all bad.


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## emb1980 (Dec 28, 2012)

I think situations like this one are about equally culpable for the poor state of our edgakashun system.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...vestigation-saying-vagina-biology-lesson.html


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## Snow Hill Pond (Aug 10, 2011)

blue suede shoes said:


> Yes, unfortunately I am painting with a very broad brush, but I do mean what I say. I believe that there are many flaws in our nation's schools, and that those flaws are prevalent in all school systems. How do you define what an excellent school district is? By test scores? I don't; I look at things differently and in my humble opinion, they are all bad.


How do I define an excellent school system? There is no single measure that will suffice. Graduation rates and test scores are surrogate markers that can be manipulated. So I don't think those are good measures. Assuming that a graduate is considering college, a simple (short-winded) answer is "Yes" to the following question "Are the graduates academically prepared to matriculate to their college of choice?" Assuming that a graduate is not going to college, a simple answer is "Yes" to the following question: "Are the graduates sufficiently skilled in reading, writing, and mathematics to allow them to learn on their own into adulthood?"

If my kids could answer "Yes" to either question after their senior year of HS, I'd be happy.


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