# Wow ... Romney on the spot ...



## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

And; I think he handled it well. Some people you just can't reach.
I'd like to see all the nominees in a spot like this and see how they handle it.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Mitt was excellent. Not saying I agree with many things he said (54k = high income earner? WTF, DEMOCRAT SPEAK!) but he maintained his poise and acted like a gentleman in the face of a rather antagonistic, irrational piece of crap. She is a good example of so much that is wrong with the US. Me, me, me and obviously engaged in class warfare against people with "fancy clothes and fancy cars." She seems to have no feeling of responsibility for her life.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Mitt was excellent. Not saying I agree with many things he said (54k = high income earner? WTF, DEMOCRAT SPEAK!) but he maintained his poise and acted like a gentleman in the face of a rather antagonistic, irrational piece of crap. She is a good example of so much that is wrong with the US. Me, me, me and obviously engaged in class warfare against people with "fancy clothes and fancy cars." She seems to have no feeling of responsibility for her life.


Well ...


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

I truly want to be sensitive to other's who are going through hardships in their live's. But there are those people in every society who wish to do as little as possible.

On the other hand the middle class in the United States has been shrinking for the past thirty years and as a society we have polarized along every imaginable boundary. (especially income)

I have been to over a thousand hospitals all over the world and experienced four different country's "Socialized medicine." I have been working in the health care field for twenty years both in industry and a clinical environment and I can tell you our health care system is in deep trouble. 

I would gladly pay fifty percent of my income so that every citizen in the U.S. could receive the same quality care as citizens of the U.K.. No system is without it's issues but I too would be happy to live with the same level of medical care as a citizen of the U.K. receives.

I am not a liberal and I am not a pacifist. If our political leaders can find the money we don't have to go to war, then they can find the money we don't have to give every citizen of the U.S. a basic level of health care through the taxes we pay.

My quatro centavos,

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> I would gladly pay fifty percent of my income so that every citizen in the U.S. could receive the same quality care as citizens of the U.K.. No system is without it's issues but I too would be happy to live with the same level of medical care as a citizen of the U.K. receives.


I too have worked in healthcare in a clinical nature and at an executive level. I have been in the field for 12 years, having practiced in both Canada (where I grew up) and the US (where I live). I fail to share your desire to pay 50% of my income so the likes of this clinically, maybe even morbidly from looking at her, obese person can have the medications and complications of Type II NIDDM cared for. Most particularly since she seems to have personal animosity towards people like myself. Those receiving help, IMO, do owe a debt, even if that debt is merely gratitude. This ill-kept, surly piece of crap obviously feels these things are her due.

I think most people have empathy towards the plight of others and would like to see suffering relieved. Our system is also most certainly broken, I agree there too. However, I do not agree with your prescription for the fix, if that is a UK style system. I also think this piece of crap would not want a UK style system since at age 65, one ceases to be eligible for ongoing hemodialysis.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

127.72 MHz said:


> I would gladly pay fifty percent of my income so that every citizen in the U.S. could receive the same quality care as citizens of the U.K.. No system is without it's issues but I too would be happy to live with the same level of medical care as a citizen of the U.K. receives.


Really? I wouldn't gladly pay that.

There are lots of basic needs people have - shelter, food, etc. We pay for all of these things. They are survival needs but the government doesn't provide them for us. However, we do help subsidize some of these things for those who are unable to care for themselves - and we do this for health care through social programs, including Medicare and Medicaid.

I do think affordable insurance should be available to everyone, and I don't know why large groups of random people can't qualify for group rates. I would like also like to see health insurance become more portable, so people aren't tied to jobs they hate or forced to keep working when they're old because the cost of insurance is so high. There does not seem to be enough competition in the health coverage market.

But I don't think it needs to be "free" and subsidized with half of my earnings to all to be available to all.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

127.72 MHz said:


> I would gladly pay fifty percent of my income so that every citizen in the U.S. could receive the same quality care as citizens of the U.K.


Who is stopping you now? Or do you currently give 50% of your salary in charitable contributions to healthcare organizations?



> No system is without it's issues but I too would be happy to live with the same level of medical care as a citizen of the U.K. receives.


Not me. Isn't it my right to get the healthcare I think I need and not what you think is acceptable?


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

ksinc said:


> Who is stopping you now? Or do you currently give 50% of your salary in charitable contributions to healthcare organizations?
> 
> Not me. Isn't it my right to get the healthcare I think I need and not what you think is acceptable?


 It's the view of some who give that one should never draw attention to one's good deeds, I will leave it at that.

I do not make decisions as to what type of health care you receive or for that matter if you receive any at all. I have no wish to either. (Not sure where your venom comes from friend but if you have any family history of vascular disease you're working on blowing an aneurysm):icon_smile_wink:

After having observed and received health care in the U.K., Canada, and France, I simply believe they are able to provide very high quality basic health care for many more people than our health care system is able to. I also believe that citizens of nations as wealthy as the United States pay enough in taxes already that they should receive good basic health care at no additional cost to them.

Last year just short of one hundred fifty hospitals in California went bankrupt as a result of being forced to provide care for uninsured people who presented at their hospital(s).

Whether you are aware of it or if you choose to believe it, our healthcare system is systemically broken, and it is only going to get worse unless much is done.

I also believe millions of Americans who have no health care insurance is nothing short of a national disgrace.

What the U.S. does better than most other nation's healthcare systems is provide highly technical, (and expensive) acute care and life support measures.

You are entitled to your opinions and views just as I am entitled to mine. I would also be willing to fight for your right to express your opinions.

Do you believe the status quo is acceptable?

If you think changes should be made what do you support?

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

127.72 MHz said:


> It's the view of some who give that one should never draw attention to one's good deeds, I will leave it at that.
> 
> I do not make decisions as to what type of health care you receive or for that matter if you receive any at all. I have no wish to either. (Not sure where your venom comes from friend but if you have any family history of vascular disease you're working on blowing an aneurysm):icon_smile_wink:
> 
> ...


Venom? LOL Friend? LMAO

That's what I figured. The answer is you only want to put other people's money where your mouth is and you would rather try to condescend to those who call you on it or make emotional claims of "disgrace!"

Sorry, but no venom was used or necessary. And; no aneurysm is imminent. Be fully aware your rudeness is soundly rejected.

Yes, the status quo is fine by me regarding quality of care. I receive excellent healthcare. I never wait for it. I'm in excellent shape and health. And; I pay my own way.

The status quo is not fine on cost IMHO. It's getting expensive. So, I'd love to see the legal environment and entitlements that surround healthcare and drive prices up reformed. I'd love to see Medicare reform. I'd love to see all the illegals schlepping on welfare sent packing. And; I would like to see some interstate competition for health insurance.

If you want to provide healthcare insurance for others out of your own pocket. Again, no one is stopping you. If you don't want attention then it was a poor choice to make your statement of "gladly paying 50%". You can't have it both ways.
What I did was challenge you; stop talking about what you would gladly do and start doing. That's the American way. I was polite and spewed no venom. I'm sure my blood pressure stayed around 108/72 where it always does.

As for the personally offensive thought that you might be able to help protect my right to my opinion. LOL Thanks, but no thanks. I've got that covered too.  I'm sure you can find someone, somewhere willing to live and receive healthcare/insurance by your leave, it's just not me.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> She is a good example of so much that is wrong with the US. *Me, me, me.*"


You're also exhibiting a similar attitude, you don't want to give up a bit of your disposable income that you'd probably spend on your clothing collection to help someone else struggling to keep a family with three sick kids alive.



Wayfarer said:


> This ill-kept, surly piece of crap.


Clearly this class venom towards people of other classes goes both ways.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

omairp said:


> You're also exhibiting a similar attitude, you don't want to give up a bit of your disposable income that you'd probably spend on your clothing collection to help someone else struggling to keep a family with three sick kids alive.


Personally, I review a person's finances before I give them any of my money. Which I am known to do. Why should I throw good money after bad. For example, I have my Mother in Law on a budget, because she requires regular funds. I am not paying for her $70 Insulin so she can go buy trinkets and eat $15 lunches at Cracker Barrel. IOW, I'm not funding her lifestyle.

For example, what if someone drinks and smokes? Should I give them another $300/mo for their kids health insurance while they spend that much on cigarettes and beer each month? My personal values and common sense say no. So, I choose to manage my charitable contributions in this manner. If someone doesn't think it's my business, they don't need my money. Taking my money makes it my business. This is an inherent relationship few seem to grasp. When you start taking money from others you implicitly give up some of your freedom.

Also, don't go assuming everyone is "worthy" or "only worthy" of what you deem necessary. Maybe they don't deserve it, or maybe they deserve far more. I mean, why should we stop at healthcare? Everyone with sick kids should have a nice home, good food, nice clothes and I'm sure they could use a new minivan. Heck those kids shoulds go to Disney World!

I mean gee golly and why should the Mother have to work when she should be caring for those kids?

For only $250,000 per year they could live the life they deserve! Who else wants to chip in? How much can we count on you for, omairp?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> You're also exhibiting a similar attitude, you don't want to give up a bit of your disposable income that you'd probably spend on your clothing collection to help someone else struggling to keep a family with three sick kids alive.


There can be no comparison between a person wishing to determine how the benefits of his labour is disposed vs. someone that demands I enslave myself to the point necessary to pay for their problems. The two things are not comparable. Further, you have no idea how much I might or might not give to charity. Also, when I give charitably, I get to decide who/what gets my largess and how much. Again, the difference is giving of my own free will vs. being enslaved to the extent that it takes to fund the will of others. One can either see the difference or they cannot. If one cannot see the difference, there is little room for me to discuss these clear and important distinctions further with you.



omairp said:


> Clearly this class venom towards people of other classes goes both ways.


Being a surly piece of crap cuts across socio-economic lines. It is your own baggage that has tied the two together. One of the most successful and wealthiest people I know is a surly piece of crap.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> After having observed and received health care in the U.K., Canada, and France,* I simply believe they are able to provide very high quality basic health care for many more people than our health care system is able to. *I also believe that citizens of nations as wealthy as the United States pay enough in taxes already that they should receive good basic health care at no additional cost to them.


Please do some reading on wait times in Canada. Allow me to get you started: https://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=863
Also read about such things as MRSA rates in the UK for dialysis patients and their access routes (fistulas of course being preferred)at: https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4663392.stm

MRSA in Quebec: https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4663392.stm

Just a few things to consider. No country has Nirvana in its healthcare.

Lastly, to California hospitals: what percent of those uninsured were illegals? I can tell you, that is what causing hardship in Tucson. Would your proposed policy cover illegals too?


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

omairp said:


> someone else struggling to keep a family with three sick kids alive.


She could always give one or two of them away.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Ksinc;
I admit, you do laugh quite a bit. (I think that's what "LOL," and "LMAO" mean) But if you got a smile brought to your face that's good enough for me,...

No further comment for you on the rudeness thing, if you're content with your behavior I'm sure I won't change your opinion.

I've stated my thoughts about health care in the United States, and you clearly don't agree.

I do try to keep informed but my opinions on the quality of health care in Canada, the United Kingdom, and France, are as a result of my first hand experiences. 

I have also been to forty some odd hospitals in Japan and the style and quality of care reminded me a bit of a slice of the Canadian and United Kingdom's health care systems. 

It's very interesting to hear the impressions of Physicians, many of whom have done Fellowships in the U.S., and what we do better than their halth care systems.

A visiting Cardiologist from Manchester, U.K. who spent a year and a half at the large University hospital I currently work at said just before he left that if he were to be involved in a Trauma situation there is no place he would rather end up than in a large Trauma center in the United States. But he could not believe the cost involved. Whether it's an insurance company, the government, or a private individual, the cost of our health care is just not sustainable.

We are just simply unable to contain costs and this fact is breaking the back of the entire United States health care system. 

Insurance corporations, Pharmaceutical corporations, not to mention the American Medical Association all wish to retain the statis quo and together they continue to purchase all the legislation their deep pockets will buy.

At this point the only thing that is completely unacceptable is to do nothing.

Bill
Portland, Oregon

Post Script: Wayfarer: Illegal immigration is an issue unto itself. It seems to me in the current political correct environment we now live in that a caucasian cannot come out aganist illegal immigration without being labeled a racist. No one wants to be labeled a racists right?


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> We are just simply unable to contain costs and this fact is breaking the back of the entire United States healthcare system.
> 
> Insurance corporations, Pharmaceutical corporations, not to mention the American Medical Association all wish to retain the statis quo and together they continue to purchased all the legislation their deep pockets will buy.


I totally agree with that. The problem is, the public will find any attempts at rational cost containment just as unpalatable as will the well organized groups you also mentioned.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I totally agree with that. The problem is, the public will find any attempts at rational cost containment just as unpalatable as will the well organized groups you also mentioned.


And; those 3rd parties are the reasons for a lot of the costs in the first place.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

deleted.

new motto: no feeding the troll.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

ksinc said:


> How much can we count on you for, omairp?


You can count me in for my taxes which are around 39% combined at the federal and provincial level which pay for universal healthcare here in Canada, as well my private charitable contributions which will remain private. I'm a fiscal conservative and like lower taxes, but not at the expense of basic healthcare.

Healthcare and a trip to disneyland are not the same thing. One is a matter of survival, the other isn't. Alot (not all) of this objection to universal healthcare is just plain greed. For Mitt Romney's plan, it really doesn't address this lady's problem with excessive insurance fees, it really just benefits insurance companies by ensuring they have more customers. I work for a health insurance company here in Canada, but I would not be able to look myself in the mirror if I worked for a HMO in the US.



wayfarer said:


> Being a surly piece of crap cuts across socio-economic lines. It is your own baggage that has tied the two together."


Well, unless you know this woman personally, I can't figure out why else you want to take personal shots at her appearance when she's raising legitimate concerns to someone running for office. She did badger Romney, but any candidate should be prepared for that if they're running for office, that's just part of the territory.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

omairp said:


> You can count me in for my taxes which are around 39% combined at the federal and provincial level which pay for universal healthcare here in Canada, as well my private charitable contributions which will remain private. I'm a fiscal conservative and like lower taxes, but not at the expense of basic healthcare.
> 
> Healthcare and a trip to disneyland are not the same thing. One is a matter of survival, the other isn't. Alot (not all) of this objection to universal healthcare is just plain greed. For Mitt Romney's plan, it really doesn't address this lady's problem with excessive insurance fees, it really just benefits insurance companies by ensuring they have more customers. I work for a health insurance company here in Canada, but I would not be able to look myself in the mirror if I worked for a HMO in the US.
> 
> Well, unless you know this woman personally, I can't figure out why else you want to take personal shots at her appearance when she's raising legitimate concerns to someone running for office. She did badger Romney, but any candidate should be prepared for that if they're running for office, that's just part of the territory.


Canadian taxes? LOL Those don't count. If you want a dog in the fight here, you need to pay here. You will have to forgive me for not responding to what I feel is an irrelevant opinion since your default assumption is "greed". If anyone sounds envious of others it's the lady in question. It's not greed to not welcome her with open arms. Still, not a lot of room for fair debate you leave. You don't live here anyway. So, it's moot.

I agree with you about calling the woman names which is a legitimate beef you have with Wayfarer. I thought that was rather beyond mere contempt for her entitled mindset; which I also detest. I think you do not find her as offensive as we do. And; I'm not surprised it doesn't bother you. You must be extremely desensitized living where you do to other people laying claim on private property. I am not. That is not greed, it's freedom. Free choice. I help those I like. I don't like her. I don't like her attitude. I won't help a person like that.

I'm always amazed at the interest foreigners have in American issues and politics. Totally blows my mind. Cheers!


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

ksinc said:


> I agree with you about calling the woman names which is a legitimate beef you have with Wayfarer. I thought that was rather beyond mere contempt for her entitled mindset; which I also detest.
> 
> I'm always amazed at the interest foreigners have in American issues and politics. Totally blows my mind. Cheers!


I take an interest in politics in lots of countries, some of which I'm citizens of, some of which I'm not. I generally agree with what you just said. Cheers!


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

omairp said:


> I take an interest in politics in lots of countries, some of which I'm citizens of, some of which I'm not. I generally agree with what you just said. Cheers!


I added quite a bit, sorry. I have a headache from too much sun and beer while playing golf today and my post didn't reread as I wanted. I do that a lot. I apologize. The preview is no good IMHO.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Canadian taxes? LOL Those don't count. If you want a dog in the fight here, you need to pay here.


Canadian taxes subsidize Canadian drugs that Americans are so eager to buy up, because American health care costs are so out of control. Canadian tax dollars are helping to prop up American health care. If you want to thank me, I wear size 9.5e John Lobb's. :icon_smile_big:


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

I can understand why she doesn't like politicians in fancy clothes.










"And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe -- the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."

"And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

Mitt did good though. He should have looked around the room and asked her which customer should be paying for the kids she chose to have. This is Hillary's secret women; single issue poorly educated women voters who won't show on up any poll and likely have never voted before.


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Mitt did okay... but failed on the "showing personal concern" front.

Didn't anybody learn anything from "I feel your pain" Clinton? I do this with clients all the time; "I understand how frustrated you feel about X. It's just awful that you're dealing with that." <insert hug or handshake with upper arm clasp> </hug> THEN you launch into your plan. People LOVE to know that you really HEARD them, even if you can't solve the problem exactly. DUH! I care and I'll try should be the mantra. Of course no politician's plan will solve this woman's exact problem, but you don't want to look insensitive or like a deer in the headlights.

Who's advising these people?


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> I totally agree with that. The problem is, the public will find any attempts at rational cost containment just as unpalatable as will the well organized groups you also mentioned.


Agreed, and although only about half of registered American voters will show up to vote in a Persidental election they will call their elected representatives about health care just as we all saw during Bill Clinton's administration.

Of course "Third parties" are a reason for some of the cost, they are the patients! But the third parties mentioned, (patients) are not the reason for outrageous prices.

The providers, (hopsitals, clinics, etc) have their prices not just two or three times higher than in any other country, but ten or twenty times higher in many cases!

The providers charge so much to try to recover all the money they lose because of uninsured people they treat. (and because of good old fashioned greed)

I had to go to the Emergency room at Saint Paul's hospital in Vancouver, B.C. to have three stiches in my hand and I paid them $57.00.(U.S.)

By nephew hand four stiches in his hand at an E.R. at a Sacramento, Ca. hospital,....no complications, $900. (U.S.)

Look at a bill from an in patient stay at a U.S. hospital. I recently went over the bill of a patient who spent several days in a local hospital. He was charged $30.00 for a band aid. After a call to the hospital they got back to him three days after his inquiry to let him know the nurse applied a band aid to an injection site after he received a shot!

Taxes? We Americans laugh, (again I think that's what "LOL" means) about Canadian tax rates being so high?

Our government "Piece meals" out our taxes so we don't get hit with it in one bill and we think we're paying so much less than the darn socialists in other countrys!

But When I add up my Federal tax, my state tax, and just the properity tax on one home I have paid, (last year) right at a third of my income.:icon_pale: Not that I mind, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking U.S. tax rates are low.

Too many powerful forces to overcome for any real change to occur.

We'll see,

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

127.72 MHz said:


> Agreed, and although only about half of registered American voters will show up to vote in a Persidental election they will call their elected representatives about health care just as we all saw during Bill Clinton's administration.
> 
> Of course "Third parties" are a reason for some of the cost, they are the patients! But the third parties mentioned, (patients) are not the reason for outrageous prices.
> 
> ...


Patients are not third parties! That's just totally factually incorrect. In fact, I can think of no more dehumanizing statement than calling the patient a 3rd party in a healthcare transaction. They are not and no one calls them that.

FWIW, third parties are employers and insurance companies. The third party payment systems are what drives up cost.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

omairp said:


> Canadian taxes subsidize Canadian drugs that Americans are so eager to buy up, because American health care costs are so out of control. Canadian tax dollars are helping to prop up American health care. If you want to thank me, I wear size 9.5e John Lobb's. :icon_smile_big:


https://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=158&type=0&sequence=7

Thanks!


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

crazyquik said:


> I can understand why she doesn't like politicians in fancy clothes.
> 
> [/img]https://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/jfkinaguralamericanrhetoric2.jpg[/img]
> 
> ...


Great post! I'm sure if asked she loves JFK and thinks he was the greatest President in recent history. Thank God, JFK studied some economics.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

VS said:


> Mitt did okay... but failed on the "showing personal concern" front.
> 
> Didn't anybody learn anything from "I feel your pain" Clinton? I do this with clients all the time; "I understand how frustrated you feel about X. It's just awful that you're dealing with that." <insert hug or handshake with upper arm clasp> </hug> THEN you launch into your plan. People LOVE to know that you really HEARD them, even if you can't solve the problem exactly. DUH! I care and I'll try should be the mantra. Of course no politician's plan will solve this woman's exact problem, but you don't want to look insensitive or like a deer in the headlights.
> 
> Who's advising these people?


I think you have a good point and generally are correct, except her point was all you politicians blow through here and tell me I care and I'll try and I still don't have healthcare. So, she asked for what are you going to do? And; when he tried to tell her he discovered she really wasn't serious about learning what he would do and what that would mean and would be required from her; she just wanted to hear "I care and I'll try" again or hit the lottery or throw feces at him like a monkey in a cage on TV.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> I work for a health insurance company here in Canada, but I would not be able to look myself in the mirror if I worked for a HMO in the US.


Why would you say that about HMOs? True they have problems, but they have been the causative agent for saving untold tens of thousands of lives. Educate yourself somewhat on the history of HMOs before you make such damning statements. If you decide to rebut this statement, I would suggest you have some very well researched and reasoned answers to the contrary as you are not dealing with a layperson on healthcare here. Heck, I will even toss you a bone and give you an area to research to inform yourself: small area studies. Also, if you live in a border area and can pick up US television, pay attention to the AARP sponsored commercials that are lobbying to keep Medicare Advantage. Those are all HMOs my friend. And the AARP is pushing for them. Think on that.

Did you even bother reading the links I so thoughtfully provided on Canadian healthcare issues? I would have problems sleeping knowing I am dooming so many tax paying people to suffering and possible death due to delayed tx.



omairp said:


> Well, unless you know this woman personally, I can't figure out why else you want to take personal shots at her appearance when she's raising legitimate concerns to someone running for office. She did badger Romney, but any candidate should be prepared for that if they're running for office, that's just part of the territory.


I do not remember taking shots at her appearance. I did make a clinical judgment based on her weight but this is not taking a "personal shot at her appearance", it is making an informed clinical judgment. I made no mention on grooming, clothing, etc. The surly part should have been self-evident; even you admit she was badgering. Again, you are reading things into my statement based on your personal baggage. I would guess you personally found her appearance less than flattering and transferred these feelings into my statement on obesity, a statement made by a trained clinician, regarding her weight.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> Of course "Third parties" are a reason for some of the cost, they are the patients! But the third parties mentioned, (patients) are not the reason for outrageous prices.


Bill, you claimed to be an expert, of one kind or another, in health care. What a "third party" or "third party payor" is, is a very basic concept in health care management. An error like this honestly casts into doubt any claims you have made so far on being involved in health care management, finance, or public policy. I am sorry to challenge your bona fides, but this is just too egregious a demonstrated misunderstanding of an ubiquitous concept.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Why would you say that about HMOs?


Personal opinion on the way they conduct business from what I've seen and heard from people in insurance on both sides of the border and from people who have dealt with HMO's. You can disagree, but my opinion is still my opinion.



Wayfarer said:


> Did you even bother reading the links I so thoughtfully provided on Canadian healthcare issues? I would have problems sleeping knowing I am dooming so many tax paying people to suffering and possible death due to delayed tx.


I don't read these reports on the internet, I deal with the healthcare system all the time as a user, and I have several members of my immediate family who work for the capital health care system, or are management consultants for the health care system, and author these types of reports.



Wayfarer said:


> I do not remember taking shots at her appearance.





Wayfarer said:


> This *ill-kept*, surly piece of crap.


That ill-kept thing is a shot at her appearance, whether it relates to weight or clothing, both are part of appearance.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> Personal opinion on the way they conduct business from what I've seen and heard from people in insurance on both sides of the border and from people who have dealt with HMO's. You can disagree, but my opinion is still my opinion.


So your opinion based on anecdotal and second hand evidence vs. real research. Okay, you win, I cannot argue with that.



omairp said:


> *I don't read these reports on the internet,* I deal with the healthcare system all the time as a user, and I have several members of my immediate family who work for the capital health care system, or are management consultants for the health care system, and author these types of reports.


Right, because the Canadian government and the Fraser Institute are lying to you. I have to say, again, there is no way the facts I present can compare to actually claiming to have family members that know better.



omairp said:


> That ill-kept thing is a shot at her appearance, whether it relates to weight or clothing, both are part of appearance.


I will give you that was a phrase that was ambiguous. I was judging she was not taking care of her health, i.e. ill-kept physique, but I can see where that came across as something else.

I think we have come to the point where I stop replying to you on this topic. You have basically stated, for all to see, that you simply will not read facts contrary to your position. That leaves no room for growth on your part. There is an old Islamic axiom: No one can take anything from a closed fist, but neither can something be placed in it. Open yourself to growth and education.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Fraser Institute


Well now I'm glad I didn't look at those reports, the fraser institute is a pretty well known conservative think tank with it's own biases. Reports from them should definetley be taken with a few cellars of salt.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> Well now I'm glad I didn't look at those reports, the fraser institute is a pretty well known conservative think tank with it's own biases. Reports from them should definetley be taken with a few cellars of salt.


Yes, god forbid you should read a report that does not jive with your world view that you have admittedly created through second hand opinion and anecdote.

https://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/

Now please discount the Federal Department too.

Sorry, I do not debate with people that have told me they have an opinion and refuse to look at facts.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Canada's health care system does have problems like any others but I still like it. It doesn't bother me to hear info that doesn't jive with my world view as you put it. But I don't like it when think tanks like the Fraser institute try to spin things a certain way for political purposes and pass it off as impartial research. I guess we've reached a point at which you have decided you like american health care, and I like Canadian health care. If it can't be reconciled it can't be reconciled. Your opinion is your valid opinion, and mine is mine. I guess that's the end-point of my contribution to this thread. Cheers!


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

omairp said:


> Canada's health care system does have problems like any others but I still like it. It doesn't bother me to hear info that doesn't jive with my world view as you put it. But I don't like it when think tanks like the Fraser institute try to spin things a certain way for political purposes and pass it off as impartial research. *I guess we've reached a point at which you have decided you like american health care, and I like Canadian health care.* If it can't be reconciled it can't be reconciled. Your opinion is your valid opinion, and mine is mine. I guess that's the end-point of my contribution to this thread. Cheers!


Just for the record, I like neither. Both are inherently flawed. I actually think that from a structural/organizational standpoint, Canada would probably be easier to fix. However, Canadians, just like Americans, have shown they too do not wish to have a rationalized health care system. As you have demonstrated, many people do not want to hear, read, or attempt to understand actual research and evidence on the topic. I presented you with sources from the BBC (an admittedly left wing entity per its own recent internal study), through the Fraser Institute, through Stats Can and the Federal Department of Health, and you refused to look at them. I gave you a topic to research regarding HMOs and you ignored it. I mentioned how the AARP is actually lobbying *for* Medicare HMOs and you ignored it.

You are correct, your "contributions" in the thread have reached their nadir.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

omairp said:


> That ill-kept thing is a shot at her appearance, whether it relates to weight or clothing, both are part of appearance.


Weight relates to her health as well, and when you're asking (or rather, forcing through taxation) someone else (me, Wayfarer, ksinc) to pay for her healthcare, then we should have a say.

People recieving free healthcare that don't follow thier doctor's orders should be taken off the rolls.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> Bill, you claimed to be an expert, of one kind or another, in health care. What a "third party" or "third party payor" is, is a very basic concept in health care management. An error like this honestly casts into doubt any claims you have made so far on being involved in health care management, finance, or public policy. I am sorry to challenge your bona fides, but this is just too egregious a demonstrated misunderstanding of an ubiquitous concept.


No apology is needed, and to set the record straight I have not claimed to be an "Expert" of any kind and I am not involved in health care management.

I am an MRI Technologist who got a Master's Degree to become a Physician's Assistant. Just your basic average Joe,...I have worked at hospitals in every state and Providence in Canada and twelve other countries in my former job as an MRI Applications Specialist with General Electric Medical Systems. (teaching the clinical applications of G.E.'s MRI scanners)

I assumed Ksinc was referring to "Third parties" as patients as I had already mentioned Insurance companies.

Whether someone believes me as to what I do now or what have done for a living honestly does not matter one way or the other to me.

I'm just a fellow with an opinion, and while my opinion is no more importiant than your's or anyone else's, it is no less importaint either.

https://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0843/is_n3_v18/ai_12224752

Here is my understanding of "Third parties." (attention to the part about United States health care cost verses the quality of care)

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> https://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0843/is_n3_v18/ai_12224752
> 
> Here is my understanding of "Third parties." (attention to the part about United States health care cost verses the quality of care)
> 
> ...


Would that not be your "*new* understanding"?

Also, you might be surprised to know, your own current job is a result of physician extender models, models that came about in attempts at cost containment. HMOs are huge proponents of physician extender models. The Onlok/PACE model, which has been emulated nationwide now, is a well known physician extender driven model. The 20 year "demonstration project" in Wisconsin has finally ended and United Healthcare wasted no time in rolling out its Evercare product that has penetrated many markets.

My own opinion is that an NP or PA can function just fine independently in the roll of "GP as gatekeeper". I have also known PAs, for instance, that do the majority of the screening and bed side assessment in transplant programs, thus freeing up the actual surgeon for surgery.

One of the positive aspects of today's system in the US is that is has fueled various alternative models that can actually provide high quality care with lower costs. Not that these models are perfect either, but trying to solve a problem is better than just living with it, IMO.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

127.72 MHz said:


> I assumed Ksinc was referring to "Third parties" as patients as I had already mentioned Insurance companies.
> 
> Bill
> Portland, Oregon


Not that I'm unable to learn something new, but it hardly seems fair to quote me out of context without including an aspect directly relating to what I actually said.

Truthfully the first time I recall hearing about third party payers years ago I mostly, (incorrectly) thought of them as the tight fisted MHO's of the world. One that comes to mind is one called Group Health,...For many years those of in the medical field always called them "Group Death" because by the time they apporved treatment for many people their conditions were not survivable. But as mentioned working for a large medical facility the only time I hear from billing is when they occasionally contact me to see if I might modify a billing code to "Better reflect the patient's treatment." (I feel sure you can read between the lines of this one,....

None the less, my point is, nothing short of complete reform is going to address an issue that is so out of hand and unsustainable as the entire U.S. health care system. (the entire way we do business)

Although unpopular I will state again that I personally would be quite content to submit myself to the dreaded "Socialized" medicine that we Americans have been brainwashed into believing is substandard. It amounts to very good basic medical care and accepts that one might not have access to the most technical and highly expensive medical care, or that it would require a wait.

I accept that my feelings are quite foreign to most Ameircans but given my experiences I am willing to let my life go when my time has come. As it stands right now I am a DNC, (do not code) and DNR.(do not resuscitate) In my line of work where the rubber meets the road translates to: there are conditions that one should not survive. (speaking only for myself)

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

https://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0807/Mitt_unplugged.html


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> Although unpopular I will state again that I personally would be quite content to submit myself to the dreaded "Socialized" medicine that we Americans have been brainwashed into believing is substandard. It amounts to very good basic medical care and accepts that one might not have access to the most technical and highly expensive medical care, or that it would require a wait.


There are a few points here I could address, but I will tackle only two.

Do you think infection control is "basic" in medical care?

Canada does not have socialized medicine but it seems to me you keep lumping it there.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> There are a few points here I could address, but I will tackle only two.
> 
> Do you think infection control is "basic" in medical care?
> 
> Canada does not have socialized medicine but it seems to me you keep lumping it there.


Wayfarer:
Do you agree that the Canadian health care system is fully government funded and the patient's pay very little if anything out of their pocket upon each medical visit?

So okay it may not be "Socialized" health care and no doubt you can define exactly why it is not. But would you be surprized to know that one of my closest friends is a Canadian Neuro-Radiologist who attended medical school in Toronto, Residency at John's Hopkins, and Neuro-Radiology Fellowship at Stanford,...and he will often refer to the Canadian model of health care as "Socialized" medicine?

So this only proves that even a Canadian trained Physician can incorrectly refer to health care in his own country,...

Again, I'm sure you can explain exactly why it's not and as I've stated I would be happy for you to enlighten me as to what the Canadian model is called.

Would you call the U.K.'s model of medicine "Socialized?" I have been treated in both systems and from the my point of view, as a patient, the experience was very similar. (This is my experience of being treated at St. Paul's Hospital in Vancouver, B.C. and being treated at Royal Brompton in London)

How can anyone speak with authority about a system of health care they have not experienced as a patient, a provider, or even a visitor?

I don't believe you accept that the U.S. model of health care is hopelessly broken and thus will require much more than modification.

Have personally spoken to health care providers from other countrys including Physicians, Nurses, and Technologists?

I have, and I'm all but sure that you will not yield to the possibility that we need serious change in our model of medicine.

I think you're far more in the know than the average American where health care is concerned and yet the stigma that any other system of health care in the U.S. might work better is something you, (and millions of others) are unwilling to even consider.

Talk about specific nation's health care models. If it's what you believe why don't you just come out and state that you don't think the U.K.'s health care, or Canada's health care is as good as ours? (as examples) I can respect another's opinion.

What's going on when people spend so much time viewing blogs that they have forgotten how to think criticaly on their own? (just thinking out loud)

Good evening,

Bill
Portland, Oregon

P.S. I almost forgot, the infection control thing. Please do not make the mistake of implying that we in United States are nearly as effective at infection control as we were taught in school. Have you looked up that statistics on how many In patients leave U.S. hospitals with infections they did not have when they entered? Infection control is a central issue in hospitals all over the world and to imply that we here in the U.S. do an adequate job of infection control verses MANY other nation's health care is not a good road to go down.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> Wayfarer:
> Do you agree that the Canadian health care system is fully government funded and the patient's pay very little if anything out of their pocket upon each medical visit?
> 
> So okay it may not be "Socialized" health care and no doubt you can define exactly why it is not. But would you be surprized to know that one of my closest friends is a Canadian Neuro-Radiologist who attended medical school in Toronto, Residency at John's Hopkins, and Neuro-Radiology Fellowship at Stanford,...and he will often refer to the Canadian model of health care as "Socialized" medicine?


None of this makes it socialized. The MDS speaks of reverse staging pressure ulcers, but anyone with even basic wound care understanding knows there is not such thing. Does that make the MDS correct? So basically, what you are saying, is that definitions mean nothing or that your mistake is justified by that of others? Either way, for someone that keeps spouting about all his experience and knowledge of healthcare, you keep demonstrating a frighteningly faulted grasp on some basic issues.



127.72 MHz said:


> Would you call the U.K.'s model of medicine "Socialized?" I have been treated in both systems and from the my point of view, as a patient, the experience was very similar. (This is my experience of being treated at St. Paul's Hospital in Vancouver, B.C. and being treated at Royal Brompton in London)
> 
> *How can anyone speak with authority about a system of health care they have not experienced as a patient, a provider, or even a visitor?*


Not only would I, healthcare economists would too. As to the bolded part, I have to say, apparently experiencing a system as a patient and provider, as you are claiming, does not cure one from a cranial/rectal impaction. You keep demonstrating your very incorrect grasp of so many things. And in case you have not read for comprehension, of the three countries so far discussed, the US, Canada, and the UK, I can say, "Yes" to two out of three. And I can accurately describe many concepts you cannot. Not sure what to make of that, are you?



127.72 MHz said:


> I don't believe you accept that the U.S. model of health care is hopelessly broken and thus will require much more than modification.


That is fine. I have stated it any number of times over many months. I have outlined what I think are some fixes. Could you provide some proof for calling me a liar? I have provided much proof in challenge of your self-proclaimed knowledge of healthcare.



127.72 MHz said:


> Have personally spoken to health care providers from other countrys including Physicians, Nurses, and Technologists?


Not only spoken to them, I am one! You really do not read what I post, do you? You seem to read what you think I should be saying because I disagree with you.



127.72 MHz said:


> I have, and I'm all but sure that you will not yield to the possibility that we need serious change in our model of medicine.


Not going to repeat myself.



127.72 MHz said:


> I think you're far more in the know than the average American where health care is concerned and yet the stigma that any other system of health care in the U.S. might work better is something you, (and millions of others) are unwilling to even consider.


More proof you have not been paying attention.



127.72 MHz said:


> Talk about specific nation's health care models. If it's what you believe why don't you just come out and state that you don't think the U.K.'s health care, or Canada's health care is as good as ours? (as examples) I can respect another's opinion.


I have already done this. You need to go back and read.



127.72 MHz said:


> What's going on when people spend so much time viewing blogs that they have forgotten how to think criticaly on their own? (just thinking out loud)


Sound advice. * TAKE IT!!*



127.72 MHz said:


> P.S. I almost forgot, the infection control thing. Please do not make the mistake of implying that we in United States are nearly as effective at infection control as we were taught in school. Have you looked up that statistics on how many In patients leave U.S. hospitals with infections they did not have when they entered? Infection control is a central issue in hospitals all over the world and to imply that we here in the U.S. do an adequate job of infection control verses MANY other nation's health care is not a good road to go down.


You did not answer the question. Do you feel infection control is part of basic healthcare? If you do, go back and READ SOME OF THE LINKS I POSTED on Canada and the UK.


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## 127.72 MHz (Feb 16, 2007)

Wayfarer said:


> None of this makes it socialized. The MDS speaks of reverse staging pressure ulcers, but anyone with even basic wound care understanding knows there is not such thing. Does that make the MDS correct? So basically, what you are saying, is that definitions mean nothing or that your mistake is justified by that of others? Either way, for someone that keeps spouting about all his experience and knowledge of healthcare, you keep demonstrating a frighteningly faulted grasp on some basic issues.
> 
> Not only would I, healthcare economists would too. As to the bolded part, I have to say, apparently experiencing a system as a patient and provider, as you are claiming, does not cure one from a cranial/rectal impaction. You keep demonstrating your very incorrect grasp of so many things. And in case you have not read for comprehension, of the three countries so far discussed, the US, Canada, and the UK, I can say, "Yes" to two out of three. And I can accurately describe many concepts you cannot. Not sure what to make of that, are you?
> 
> ...


Mr. Wayfayer;
Have you personally visited or been treated at any foreign hospital or health care system?

As far as answering questions have you address points like $900.00 stitches? Etc., Ect..?

Being as how you bring up infection control in an attempt to show a health care system outside of the U.S. may have an issue shows that you have little or no clinical background in medicine,...Why?

Because regardless of what statistics you may find about infection control in foreign health care systems the incidence of patients in U.S. hospitals all over the United States contracting diseases while they are in the hospitals is shocking. Talk about a "Ubiquitous" concept, this is it.

You attempting to show foreign health care as inferior by quoting ststistics about infection control show that you have very little if any clinical background. It also shows whatever source you site has an agenda of it's own and they too have no concept of infection control much less how it relates to patients in U.S. hopsitals contracting diseases while they are in U.S. hopsitals.

To say this is an example of a pot calling the kettle black is the understatement of the year. (not to mention showing the source to be highly biased in thier own agenda and uninformed as to U.S. infection rates)

Then to site a U.S. health care economist? Jeeze Louise Wayfarer, these people make their living off the most bloated overspending and underdelivering health care system in the world,.....The one I personally work in and have observed over the past twenty years.

What have you personally observed as a professional working in the U.S. health care syatem?

What makes your insite unique and valueable? When I asked if you had spoken to Physicians, Nurses, and Technologists in other countrys all you responded with is: "I am one." One what?

Lastly I will restate that my experience is just that, my personal experience not information I have searched for or run across trying to prove my point because I've already made up my mind, as in your case.

You've become frustrated and rude but none the less the lesson for me is not without value. Just as myself and colleagues have discussed at work you are an example of an intelligent citizen who has bought in lot, stock, and barrel, to what is sheer propaganda and fear mongering by an entrenched system of fabulously wealthy corporations and lawmakers.

Whether you accept the fact that our health care system in the U.S. is hopelessly broken will not change it. We're two people who've been discussing alternatives to what we all now live with. Because the system is hopelessly broken we all WILL see huge reform most likely later than sooner as no politician wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. The short term effects of leaving things as they are is going to be more uninsured, or more government spending to "Band aid" the chest wound in a dying system. You and I will not change it.

Warmest regards,

Bill
Portland, Oregon


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> Mr. Wayfayer;
> Have you personally visited or been treated at any foreign hospital or health care system?


Can I just ask, so we can get it out of the way, how many times do I have to keep telling you I was born and raised in Canada, was a clinical person there (and of course a patient), and then moved to the US? In the US I obtained two graduate degrees (MPH and MBA) and moved from clinical practice to working for HCFA (now CMS) as an inspector to executive managment. Please just tell me how many times I need to repeat that so I can cut and paste it X number of times and get it done with. I mean, I repeated it several times in my last post that I had worked and been treated outside the US and apparently you were able to totally ignore it. So give me a number of repetitions needed and I will attempt to get it through to you.



127.72 MHz said:


> Being as how you bring up infection control in an attempt to show a health care system outside of the U.S. may have an issue shows that you have little or no clinical background in medicine,...Why?


Really, that is what it shows? Again, how many times do I have to repeat something to get you to comprehend it? And as to really understanding the implications of infection control on a systemic basis...I suppose having both an MPH and MBA, I really have no idea how it both affects clinical practice and the balance sheet? I mean, have you seen the cost for a course of something common lately, like IV Vanco? No, of course you have not! I suppose you are going to tell me "best practices" is crap too, right? QA/QI process? P-charts to find the thresholds? Yup, all demonstrate how little I know. Maybe if Quebec had had someone as clearly uninformed as you think I am, they would not have had that nasty MRSA epidemic?

I really should have stopped responding to you when you tried to tell us "third parties" were patients. That pretty much demonstrated the exact depth of your knowledge. So what's next Bill? Co-pays need to go?


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

127.72 MHz said:


> I truly want to be sensitive to other's who are going through hardships in their live's. But there are those people in every society who wish to do as little as possible.
> 
> On the other hand the middle class in the United States has been shrinking for the past thirty years and as a society we have polarized along every imaginable boundary. (especially income)
> 
> ...


Why do you want reward those who don't take care of their own needs?

Can your 50% pay for mine too?


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Personally, I review a person's finances before I give them any of my money. Which I am known to do. Why should I throw good money after bad. For example, I have my Mother in Law on a budget, because she requires regular funds. I am not paying for her $70 Insulin so she can go buy trinkets and eat $15 lunches at Cracker Barrel. IOW, I'm not funding her lifestyle.
> 
> For example, what if someone drinks and smokes? Should I give them another $300/mo for their kids health insurance while they spend that much on cigarettes and beer each month? My personal values and common sense say no. So, I choose to manage my charitable contributions in this manner. If someone doesn't think it's my business, they don't need my money. Taking my money makes it my business. This is an inherent relationship few seem to grasp. When you start taking money from others you implicitly give up some of your freedom.
> 
> ...


Well put Ksinc


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> I totally agree with that. The problem is, the public will find any attempts at rational cost containment just as unpalatable as will the well organized groups you also mentioned.


+1

It's hard enough to convince people that $10 co-pays are fair


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I know some people think co-pays and having to pay something helps keep costs down, but I think the co-pays help to drive up costs. It is just another subsidy. For example, people will go renew a vicodin script just to have around because "it's only $10." 

All of these things that remove price considerations increase demand and create shortages which lead eventually to rationing IMHO. Something is going to determine who gets what and who has what and how quickly. 

Price is the fairest most objective determinant IMHO.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> I know some people think co-pays and having to pay something helps keep costs down, but I think the co-pays help to drive up costs. It is just another subsidy. For example, people will go renew a vicodin script just to have around because "it's only $10."
> 
> All of these things that remove price considerations increase demand and create shortages which lead eventually to rationing IMHO. Something is going to determine who gets what and who has what and how quickly.
> 
> Price is the fairest most objective determinant IMHO.


I see what you are saying and agree with it if the choice is a) insurance with co-pay vs. b) no insurance (or insurance designed to cover items catastrophic relative to income, which as you know, is they way it should be). However, co-pays within our current paradigm are better than no co-pays and do help modify at least some people's demand curves. The lessor of two evils I guess within the current system.

Oh damn, did I just demonstrate no understanding about health care again Bill?


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

What would a professional bag pipe player know about Health Care anyway?


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

ksinc said:


> I know some people think co-pays and having to pay something helps keep costs down, but I think the co-pays help to drive up costs. It is just another subsidy. For example, people will go renew a vicodin script just to have around because "it's only $10."
> 
> All of these things that remove price considerations increase demand and create shortages which lead eventually to rationing IMHO. Something is going to determine who gets what and who has what and how quickly.
> 
> Price is the fairest most objective determinant IMHO.


I think that's wht Medical Savings Accounts and Health Spending Accounts are becoming more popular. They make the consumer more accountable for their decisions.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

gnatty8 said:


> I think that's wht Medical Savings Accounts and Health Spending Accounts are becoming more popular. They make the consumer more accountable for their decisions.


Yep, I totally agree. We love our FSA.

I think I've said before most providers will give us a discount because of how we pay as well.

We are just putting enough in there to cover the basic necessaties and we dropped our eye-care and dental plan from our coverage. So far the FSA works out very well. Like we both bought new frames this year because our teeth were fine, etc.

It flows right into our other budget and cost-benefit decisions. Of course, I have the dog on her own budget spreadsheet so that works for us. 

Don't think I'm kidding. She's on allegy medicine and it's darn expensive spoiling a bichon! LOL

Budget 
Mandy Jan Feb Mar April May June July Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec YTD AVG 
Medicine $111 $111 $111 $111 $111 $111 $111 $111 $111 $111 $111 $111 $1,328 $111 
Exam $- $104 $- $- $- $- $- $104 $- $- $- $- $208 $17 
PetSmart $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $600 $50 
Groomer $45 $45 $45 $45 $45 $45 $45 $45 $45 $45 $45 $45 $540 $45 
Interceptor $20 $- $- $- $- $- $20 $- $- $- $- $- $40 $3 
Advantage $60 $- $- $- $- $- $60 $- $- $- $- $- $120 $10 
Teeth $70 $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $70 $6 
$- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- $- 
Totals $356 $310 $206 $206 $206 $206 $286 $310 $206 $206 $206 $206 $2,906 $242


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Yep, I totally agree. We love our FSA.
> 
> I think I've said before most providers will give us a discount because of how we pay as well.
> 
> ...


I remember reading something, do not ask for details as it is hazy, about being able to use an FSA like another retirement account. Have you read or do you know anything about that?


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

No. I don't understand how that works since a FSA is an 'employee benefit' and you lose it on retirement. Also, you have the use it or lose it feature. I don't see how you could accrue any future benefit. Maybe there is a way.



I'm not sure, but I think you could probably use an MSA in that way if you are self-employed. Withdrawal/expenditures are reviewed for tax-free status when they are taken. So, you could just treat it as an IRA if you wanted. You can also put it in an interest bearing account and even do an IRA rollover. So you are probably just extending the cap on your SEP-IRA with an MSA (25% or $44,000?).

DISCLAIMER: Tax is not my "thang". I hate tax. I'm very linear and tax is just so abstract that I can't retain any of it. Sorry. I do try to keep up though. You need a dedicated Tax or CFP type.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Yup, sounds iffy at best. I just tossed it out there. I will admit I am not in tune with MSAs as I do not have the need to use them.


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## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

Where did he go? 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-0806publix,0,1726442.story


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

ksinc said:


> Where did he go?
> 
> https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-0806publix,0,1726442.story


Obviously you are just brain-washed and have never been a patient at a foriegn hospital. They would _pay you_ to take their drugs. America is so broken...


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