# Review of NYC Shirtmakers



## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

In the past year I have had the opportunity to try many NYC shirtmakers. Given that quite a few questions are asked about these makers on a regular basis I have detailed below a quick summary of my experiences.

Alex will undoubtedly chastise me for being such a cheater, but I am a naturally curious person - shirts, relative to suits, are not horribly expensive and thus, allow me to try various makers without breaking the bank. 

Geneva Custom Shirts
I have been very happy with Geneva and they are now my "go-to" shirtmaker. There is a real willingness on their part to correct mistakes and ensure the customer leaves their store happy. Quality of contruction is top notch, with a beautifully designed semi-soft collar (a little roll but it doesn't rumple much). All of my styling and fit requests were promptly accepted, and in some cases, a polite alternative was suggested. Price is reasonable as well. However, mistakes happen at a fairly regular clip - simple stuff like a sleeve placket button missing and the like but it is still somewhat frustrating - they will however fix everything asap 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $225
Rating: A

Ascot Chang
AC was my first NYC custom shirt experience and I have been very happy with them. Their location right off 5th avenue may lead one to believe that they simply want to rush customers out the door and book profits but that is definitely not the case. Unlike Geneva, AC is a MTM shirt ( i.e. a pattern is not cut for each customer) but prices for TS Silverline are reasonable (~$200) and the service is outstanding. I received 3 fittings from them on my first shirt with not a single complaint on their part. Highly recommended. 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $200
Rating: B+

CEGO
I mentioned in a recent SF thread that I was very dissapointed with Carl's service. I placed an order for 3 shirts, none of my requests were acknowledged, much less incorporated, and Carl was less than pleasant during the process. That's all I'll say on CEGO as I do not want this thread to mutate into another CEGO Lovers v. CEGO Haters. 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $200
Rating: E

Paris Custom Shirts
Paris was disappointing only because they make such an outstanding product but fall short on customer service. Their collars are outstanding and the fit is good. However, Paris will make mistakes and often fail to acknowledge the fact. Simple example, I have never asked for a box pleat on a shirt (I abhor them and have always opted for a plain back) - Paris put the box pleat on one of my shirts and, after I complained, argued that I had specifically requested the box pleat. Simple summary: outstanding shirts, poor customer service 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $285
Rating: C

Dege & Skinner
Robert Whittaker visits NYC ever so often and offers a good MTM shirt service. The fabrics offered are nice (lots of Acorn) and Whittaker is knowledgeable and easy to work with - the price is a about 20% higher than NYC shirtmakers who use comparable cloth. All in, a good service but the lack of a fitting and dealing with a shirtmaker who travels to NYC only every few months makes this less than optimal. 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $280 (depends on xe rate)
Rating: B

Salvatore Piccollo
A lot of negative things have been written about Piccolo, a Neapolitan shirtmaker who visits NYC every 2 months. The majority of these reviews have come from people who have 'friends' in Naples who have been less than impressed with Piccolo. My impression was different - Piccolo was good to work with, all my requests were incorporated and the final shirt fits very well. Piccolo, despite being a traveling shirtmaker, also insisted on giving me 2 fittings as he correctly deduced that I was a hard fit. He also carries interesting fabrics (like Riva) which are not easily available from NYC shirtmakers. He is, however, expensive with the Riva's coming in at $350 and TS Silverline at $280. 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $280
Rating: B+

Charvet MTM Through Saks
This is NOT the same product you would get in Paris so please do not email me calling me a twit for having less than positive things to say about Charvet through Saks. A few months ago I had quite a few Amex points saved up and decided to get myself some Charvet shirts through Saks Fifth Avenue. The lady responsible for Charvet shirts continously bragged about how she had flown to Paris to learn the measuring process from senior Charvet salespeople, but she had absolutely no clue what she was doing. The resulting $450 shirt took 6 months to make and fit like a OTR shirt. 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $450
Rating: F

Special Mentions

Jantzen
For $43, Jantzen produces, hands-down, the best value shirt anywhere on the planet. Fabrics are decent, construction is excellent and customer service is honestly not as bad as many assume. The trick is to CALL Ricky once you have placed an order, be very polite and send him a Xmas card. Using this method, my shirts ALWAYS came within 6-8 weeks. However, as this is a long-distance service, I ran through 6-8 shirts before I even came up with a shirt I considered wearable. I soon tired of the back and forth, and decided to cough up the extra cash to work with pricier folks like Geneva. Its been about an year since my last Jantzen order, but I would not hesitate to recommend Ricky to anyone. 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: n/a (Japanese 2x2's for $43)
Rating: B

Hemrajani
I met Joe in a San Francisco hotel room many years ago and ordered 2 shirts to start with. The fit was good if not exceptional, but the prices were reasonable and the customer service excellent. When I received one shirt in a fabric different than the one I specified, Joe asked that I nonetheless keep the shirt and he would make the correct shirt for me asap. 

Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $125
Rating: B- 

Hope this was helpful. Please feel free to ask specific questions as I know I have simply sketched some broad strokes here. 

Panzer


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## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

Panzer:

Thank you for the very helpful post. May I pose a couple of questions? What is the price range for Geneva?

Also at Ascot Chang, did they make one shirt and then let you try it and make adjustments before filling the rest of your order?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Huh? Where's the "cheating"?


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Huh? Where's the "cheating"?


True - it was more playing the field before settling down with the woman, er, shirtmaker I really love.


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

healinginfluence said:


> Panzer:
> 
> Thank you for the very helpful post. May I pose a couple of questions? What is the price range for Geneva?
> 
> Also at Ascot Chang, did they make one shirt and then let you try it and make adjustments before filling the rest of your order?


Geneva's TS Silverline is $225, but suprisingly, Goldline is $245 which is a great price. D&J Anderson and high-count Alumo's are $330.

Yes, AC allowed me to make adjustments on one shirt before processing the balance of my order.

Panzer


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Panzeraxe said:


> True - it was more playing the field before settling down with the woman, er, shirtmaker I really love.


 I fully approve of playing the field. Er ... both fields. I was majoring in the other field before I got into shirtmaking. 

I actually hate being someone's first shirtmaker. The only position I really care for is as someone's last shirtmaker.

Well written series of reviews, too. May I ask why you tried Charvet through Saks rather than going to see Colban in person?


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I fully approve of playing the field. Er ... both fields. I was majoring in the other field before I got into shirtmaking.
> 
> I actually hate being someone's first shirtmaker. The only position I really care for is as someone's last shirtmaker.
> 
> Well written series of reviews, too. May I ask why you tried Charvet through Saks rather than going to see Colban in person?


I don't believe Colban travels to the U.S. to fit clients - perhaps I am mistaken. I only used Saks as I had some Amex points so I essentially got the shirt for free - I doubt I would have coughed up the $450 if I didn't have the points as my preferred alternative (Geneva) is substantially cheaper.

Panzer


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*Great Review and a quick thought*

A great informative post and typical of the high intelligence factor of regulars on this forum. IVe been curious about the paris v. geneva opinion for a while and as you can see lately, many have not weighed in on the topic.

Anyway, my two cents, particularly for newbies or relative newbies. Panzer would you car to comment on which of the makers may be best for a more aggressive suggestions or reccomendations. From you post it seems you certianly know what you like and or want. For others with less expereince we may fall into the camp make what kind of collar do you think will look good. something like , i like a spread but am i too skinny?, or the modified spread is nice but how long should the points be for me.

Finally and imho the and most imp. classic..how high should you make the collar in realtionship to the person being fitted. In other words which of the makers would you trust to relay on for suggestions for collars.

Right now for example, ive got probably 50 shirts from various makers and about 6=10 different collar styles?Id like to consoliate my collar options but am having difficulty narrowing the choice.


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

kbuzz said:


> A great informative post and typical of the high intelligence factor of regulars on this forum. IVe been curious about the paris v. geneva opinion for a while and as you can see lately, many have not weighed in on the topic.
> 
> Anyway, my two cents, particularly for newbies or relative newbies. Panzer would you car to comment on which of the makers may be best for a more aggressive suggestions or reccomendations. From you post it seems you certianly know what you like and or want. For others with less expereince we may fall into the camp make what kind of collar do you think will look good. something like , i like a spread but am i too skinny?, or the modified spread is nice but how long should the points be for me.
> 
> ...


In my experience, Geneva would be most willing to make a collar style that incorporates your exact needs and would be willing to work with you. Technically, Paris is just as capable but they may not execute your requests appropriately. The traveling shirtmakers will be no good for this as you would like to refine the design a few times over the course of a few weeks, and AC is somewhat unwilling to deviate dramatically from the 8-10 collar styles they have on file.

Panzer


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## kbuzz (Apr 2, 2005)

*let me rephrase*

Panzer that you so much for that quick reply. I do not think i was particuarly articulate in my last post. What I was trying to say is....for novices or semi novices who would you reccomend of these makers to trust thier opinion on collars. In other words-hey ill pick the fabric can you jsut tell me what type and size collar you think would look best.


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

kbuzz said:


> Panzer that you so much for that quick reply. I do not think i was particuarly articulate in my last post. What I was trying to say is....for novices or semi novices who would you reccomend of these makers to trust thier opinion on collars. In other words-hey ill pick the fabric can you jsut tell me what type and size collar you think would look best.


Sorry, I misunderstood. Paris would actually be pretty good for this as long as you ensure that your preferences on fit and other style issues are properly incorporated. Geneva would be good in this regard as well.


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## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

Panzer's reviews and comments resulting from them are truly amazing. This is exactly the sort of information I needed but did not know how to ask for it. Thank you all so much!

May I ask who Colban is? I gather he is with Charvet, Paris?


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## Trilby (Aug 11, 2004)

healinginfluence said:


> May I ask who Colban is? I gather he is with Charvet, Paris?


Jean-Claude Colban - he runs Charvet.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

healinginfluence said:


> Panzer's reviews and comments resulting from them are truly amazing. This is exactly the sort of information I needed but did not know how to ask for it. Thank you all so much!
> 
> May I ask who Colban is? I gather he is with Charvet, Paris?


He is the owner.


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## David Bresch (Apr 11, 2004)

I am sorry but I have to ask, what happened with Carl? I have spoken with him about shirt-related matters (but never bought shirts) and the guy bent over backwards to be helpful.

I am always curious about the disasters of client-merchant miscommunication. I had only one "disaster" in my sartorial odyssey, with an un-tested tailor (by virtually anyone) who just didn't have the chops to properly sew a pair of pants. The back and forth with him was excruciating so I called it quits. But I do not rule out the possibility that if I had stuck with him he might have succeeded in getting things right.

Regarding shirt makers, to continue the theme of the thread, I can offer these reviews (and in no way to steal the thread-author's thunder):

Jantzen

Nothing to add to Panseraxe's remarks. He is right on with the calling by phone however.

David's Fashions

I have had one shirt made by them. Turnaround was less than a week I think, responsiveness was excellent, price is similar to Jantzen, maybe 10-20 dollars more. Willing to send swatches unlike Jantzen. Owner fluent in English and he has staff who clearly speak English very well too. Caveats are several. I have only had one shirt made, buttons were not so hot (they promise better ones next time), and the shirt was constructed with measurements from a Jantzen shirt, so without a shirt to copy I don't know how they work.

Rating: B- (mid-term, not final, grade)

Liste Rouge

I have purchased 4 shirts from them on-line. They are a hybrid of bespoke and MTM (the collars are stock, the measurements yours). Double-needle tailoring, nice buttons, limited fabrics unless you go to their shop. Their algorithm for getting measurements is flawed so beware. My wrists are too tight and they had to replace several shirts because they did not allow proper length at the bottom when they cut the tails (sic? I don't know the term). The first shirt I bought has shrunk badly and is uncomfortable in the sleeves. Note, I am easy-to-please and not a difficult fit at all. In their defense, none of these problems might have happened had I purchased the shirts in their NYC store. And their American rep at the time was very, very kind to me.

Rating: D+


Bugelli

Florentine shirt maker extraordinaire. Shirts themselves are like jewels, really beautifully (machine-sewn) constructed. Hand-sewing is extra. if you like that. The distance is a drag and his attention waxes and wanes depending on his Japanese business. I recommend him not as a regular shirt maker (unless you go there in person), but as an experiment to see what one of the best does. Fit was wrong first round due to his not making allowances for his darts, but he got it right the second time. He worked from a Jantzen shirt by the way, to get the pattern.

Rating: A-/B+

All my remarks must be taken as evals of the service I chose. I am sure the experience would be quite different had I visited Bugelli for instance (he invited me to dinner for example) or gone directly to Liste Rouge's NYC showroom, rather than use its minimalist on-line algorithm. I also go for a comfortable, not sprayed-on, fit, so I am pretty easy to please.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Who's got the nuts to review AK?


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## knittieguy (Jun 12, 2005)

You must have an enormous number of shirts at this point.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Panzeraxe said:


> Dege & Skinner
> Robert Whittaker visits NYC ever so often and offers a good MTM shirt service. The fabrics offered are nice (lots of Acorn) and Whittaker is knowledgeable and easy to work with - the price is a about 20% higher than NYC shirtmakers who use comparable cloth. All in, a good service but the lack of a fitting and dealing with a shirtmaker who travels to NYC only every few months makes this less than optimal.
> 
> Rating: B


I can't compare to the other makers listed, so I don't know where your grading curve is. However, I can amplify this a little.

Whittaker makes a really excellent collar and also has a knack of making a body that doesn't just fit, but also flatters. I didn't know that was possible with shirts. As far as fittings go, his first sample for me was really pretty good. I keep it around for old time's sake, even though the collar is now a little tight. From version two onwards, perfect.

Downside (also documented by Dopey at more length): recent production has become a little less careful. I've lost one or two buttons, which never used to happen. Also, stitching a little less reliable than before. No structural problems, but a few threads pulling here and there. Value is a little lower than before, given the dollar's continuing collapse. If I lived in NYC I'd still make orders, but were I starting out I'd at least investigate Geneva, et al.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Henry said:


> Who's got the nuts to review AK?


 Some do.

Review.

Of course, the second reviewer may not feel the same way since the center placket seam ripped open on the front of his linen & cotton shirt. :icon_pale:


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Well, they did review them, but they didn't review them on AA where you are a moderator - they only had your wit to fear.


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

I'd rather not dwell too much on my CEGO experience as I would like this thread to remain focused on NYC shirtmakers in general - Carl was unwilling to accept any of my requests / suggestions on fit and styling and often made snide remarks when I brought them up. The resulting shirts were mediocre in fit and the price was about the same as Geneva.

Yep, I bought about 35 shirts last year to round out my wardrobe - don't think I need anymore for a while now.

Panzer


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## CPATAILOR (Oct 1, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Some do.
> 
> Review.
> 
> Of course, the second reviewer may not feel the same way since the center placket seam ripped open on the front of his linen & cotton shirt. :icon_pale:


What was the reason the center placket seam ripped open?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Henry said:


> Well, they did review them, but they didn't review them on AA where you are a moderator - they only had your wit to fear.


 Poppycock.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

CPATAILOR said:


> What was the reason the center placket seam ripped open?


It wasn't the seam. It was the fabric which ripped at the seam.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Henry said:


> Who's got the nuts to review AK?


I would if he had the decency to send me some shirts (educator's discount, of course).


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## chorse123 (Apr 14, 2004)

Panzeraxe said:


> However, Paris will make mistakes and often fail to acknowledge the fact. . . . Simple summary: outstanding shirts, poor customer service


I have heard this before, and to my mind, it sort of defeats the purpose of bespoke. If they fail to listen to requests, correct errors, or make small adjustments, why bother. Perhaps if there were no other options, but as you have shown, this is not the case.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Panzeraxe:

This is great. Just the kind of detailed information we need here. Is it possible to edit your post with the price range for the various shirt makers?

THANKS


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Henry said:


> Well, they did review them, but they didn't review them on AA where you are a moderator - they only had your wit to fear.


Since they're already talking about banning me, I have nothing to lose.

I am, I guess, AK's only non-"price immune" customer. I have a small number of his shirts. They are better made and fit better than any other shirts I own. I have tried all (I believe) of the NY makers, and two foreign stalwarts (T&A and Charvet). My only experience with handsewn shirts is Borrelli MTM.

AK does not think handsewing adds anything to a shirt. He hand attaches the buttons, but that is it. Otherwise, his shirts are as machine-made as the others in NY, London and Paris. Are they better made? It appears so to me. The sewing is neater, the seam allowances are flatter and don't pucker. There are never any loose threads. I don't know what the stitches per inch is, but it's microscopic. He does a beautiful edge stitching that no one can match. In general, I don't like edge stitching at all; on his shirts I do. His buttonholes are machine-made, but they look different -- tighter, neater -- than others. (I prefer the look of handmade buttonholes nonetheless; he and I disagree on this.) The collar has an impressive roll built in. The points don't fall ruler straight from the "V" but gradually arc downward to the shirtfront. The buttons are spectacular and are shanked like a coat's buttons. They are extremely well attached. Another shirtmaker I once used put on these same buttons (at my request and at an upcharge) and some of them came off in very short order. I've yet to have even one button shank on a K shirt even begin to unravel.

Kabbaz is the only maker I have used who makes a sample shirt. In my case he made two. He didn't make my first actual shirt until he was convinced that whatever changes he might need to make would be doable through alterations. Even then, he made clear that -- if need be -- he would remake the shirt. That turned out to be unecessary, but he did make extensive changes to that shirt.

In terms of fit, the shirts are excellent. Aside from stating a few general parameters, I did nothing but let him do his thing. He was critiquing things and making changes that I frankly did see not the point of. But he insisted. My experience with other shirtmakers has been that, if you want a really good fit, you have to take some responsibilty for the process, and also be prepared to work your way through a few initial shirts -- which you pay for -- that may not be entirely up to snuff. Not with AK. Overall, his shirts fit better in every respect than the best fitting shirts I own from other makers.

He has a greater willingness to correct mistakes than any maker I have worked with. For one shirt, I had asked for quarter stitching rather than edge stitching on the collar and cuffs. The shirt nonetheless came with edge stitching, which I had asked for on the prior shirt. I pointed this out and AK took the shirt back without saying a word. A few days later I got it back with quarter stitched collar and cuffs.

He is also most accomodating to, shall we say, picky customers. As has been discussed here before, he makes his sleeves differently. Most shirtmakers make a somewhat tight cuff and a slightly overlong sleeve. That way they pretty much guarantee that the sleeve cuffs falls to the same spot every time, even if the sleeve length is off by a fraction of an inch. It also prevents the cuffs from riding up as you move your arm. AK prefers to make shirt sleeves like coat sleeves, pitched and tapered to the hang of the arm, and at the precise length necessary. He takes care of the "riding up" problem through high armholes, some excess room at the elbow, and other little tricks I frankly did not understand. Anyway, we had a devil of a time getting my length correct. I don't remember how many times he "fixed" it, but he kept at it until we were both completely happy.

No we come to price. I never expected to make AK my only shirtmaker, or to become a major Kabbaz client. I did expect to order more than I have ended up ordering. The price -- already high when I started -- has risen substantially, by about a third. I was uncomfortable with the old price; the new price has pretty much forced me off of his client list. I had thought I would order a few every year. As it has turned out, I have used him only for a very small number of special shirts -- or "special occasion" shirts -- that don't, for the most part, see ordinary weekday wear.

I recently referred a client to AK. When he asked me the difference between AK and other shirtmakers, I said that the make of the best of the others was maybe 70-75% of Kabbaz, and the fit -- after working through several shirts -- maybe 80-85%. (Those numbers are just silly guesses. The real figures might be higher; but you get the point.) But the price of the others can be less than one-third what AK charges for one shirt. AK says that, to get that additional (say) 20% improvement, he has to spend a lot more than 20%. Since I don't know where to get shirts as good as his at any price, I can only assume he is telling the truth. I have, however, decided that the substantial additional price I have to pay to get that marginal improvement is simply not worth it to me.


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## Henry (May 4, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Poppycock.


I'm sticking my tongue out at you right now.

PS But not in a lascivious way

PPS Unless it would help with getting me a discount


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Andy said:


> Panzeraxe:
> 
> This is great. Just the kind of detailed information we need here. Is it possible to edit your post with the price range for the various shirt makers?
> 
> THANKS


Done - to keep it apples-to-apples I have used TS Silverline as an example


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## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

manton,

Thanks for the write-up on AK. Could you please also comment on your experience with T&A and Charvet.

Thanks - Panzer


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## Nantucket Red (Jan 26, 2006)

manton said:


> Since they're already talking about banning me, I have nothing to lose.


There you are, perched on the ledge. As the crowd clamors for you to jump, a lone voice in the crowd admonishes you to set your self afire.


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## PITAronin (Nov 30, 2004)

manton said:


> I am, I guess, AK's only non-"price immune" customer.
> 
> No, I can assure you that there is at least one more of Alex's customers who gives long and careful thought to the situation each and every time there's a mad urge to indulge in a Kabbaz shirt. (And, like you, I find myself restricting those indulgences to shirts that are pretty unique in terms of style or fabric and that get worn when either the occasion or my mood seems extra special. Frankly, my frame of reference is such that I can't really identify with any of Alex's clients who would commission something along the lines of "a dozen white shirts for the office".)


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

PITAronin said:


> manton said:
> 
> 
> > I am, I guess, AK's only non-"price immune" customer.
> ...


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## masterfred (Sep 3, 2003)

I have used Geneva in the past, and found them very accommodating. However, one thing that does distress me about shirtmakers (other than Mr. Kabbaz, apparently) is their overall reluctance to make muslin or trial shirts for first-time customers so that fit and styling problems can be corrected before making up the actual shirts. My first batch of Geneva shirts did have several errors in fit; as the other posters have noted, the customer bears the cost of that. I'd rather pay a more up front for trial shirt(s) that set the template for success, not have actual delivered shirts that are less than what they ought to be.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most shirtmakers would, in the long run, benefit from more satisfied clients (who'd then order more often) than using the sort of production model Geneva (and apparently Paris) does.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Panzeraxe said:


> Could you please also comment on your experience with T&A and Charvet.


In brief:

T&A: collars too tight, sleeves too short, shirt bodies too short. Well made shirts, but given the price and the fit issues, not worth it.

Charvet: I was seduced by the grand cloth room. Holy moly, what a shrine that is. The shirts: collars fine around the next, but points absurdly small. Sleeves also too short. Fit was pretty good in the body however.

I have no interest in trying T&A or any British shirtmaker ever again. Charvet, maybe, to get another crack at that cloth room. But this time I would not only be meaured in Paris, but insist on a sample shirt and fittings in Paris. The last time, I had no idea when I would be back. They said they could measure me and send all the shirts, they were pros, they do this all the time, everything would be fine, etc. Well, not in my case. I think if you force them to work a little harder, they can make a great shirt.

Years later, I inquired at Battistoni, knowing that they come to Barney's. I asked if I could be measured in Rome and have fittings in NY. They said no. They insist on making a sample, and will only do the fittings in Rome, where the cutter is. (A salesman travels to NY.) After that you could order to your heart's content in NY, but not before. Admirable of them, I think. Anyway, I wasn't in Rome long enough so I passed.


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

masterfred said:


> I'd rather pay a more up front for trial shirt(s) that set the template for success, not have actual delivered shirts that are less than what they ought to be.


I disagree. I'd rather pay for a few beater shirts in the beginning than pay a consistently higher price for the life of my relationship with that maker. I don't know what (say) a $250 shirtmaker would have to charge to make economic sense of offering a sample shirt. $300? $350? $400? But whatever the upcharge, you pay it forever. Say you have to make two initial shirts to get to where you want to be. You are happy at the third. $500 wasted or invested, depending on how you look at it. If by making samples the maker would have to raise his prices by $50, at $250 per and no sample you will have recouped your investment ten shirts later. If the sample price-hike is higher, you will recoup it even sooner.

What you describe is the way most bespoke shoemakers work. They eat, or incorporate into their pricing, the cost of making the last. Perhaps we could all save money if they simply charged us for the last and then lowered the price of subsequent pairs.

Anyway, I am not too unhappy with the way things are, shirt-wise.



> Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most shirtmakers would, in the long run, benefit from more satisfied clients (who'd then order more often) than using the sort of production model Geneva (and apparently Paris) does


There is probably some truth to this. I have heard from a few people who have gone to makers I admire and come out unsatisfied. It's possible -- even likely -- that had they gone back and worked through the issues, they could have ended up with a truly satisfying and well fitting garment. But many people believe that, with custom anything, if the first garment is not perfect or close to it, the maker has failed.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

I also had serious fit issues with T&A. 

Nice people, lovely distinctive collar, excellent workmanship, wonderful book of exclusive fabrics, but the body was never right. I finally lent them a shirt to copy for the third sample, and when even that was off in the chest by some inches (which you could tell just by laying them on a table, one over the other), they threw in the towel and suggested I look elsewhere.


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## chorse123 (Apr 14, 2004)

manton said:


> I disagree. I'd rather pay for a few beater shirts in the beginning than pay a consistently higher price for the life of my relationship with that maker.


This is my position as well, which I would say is a lot like the Jantzen logic Panzer mentioned above. Especially if you can use them, it makes sense to accept a few less-than-perfect shirts. But patience has a limit.


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## masterfred (Sep 3, 2003)

Manton, when you use the shoemaking analogy - paying for the last up front, with subsequent pairs being less expensive - is exactly what I'd prefer to do with shirts. Oh well, it doesn't matter at the moment, as I have plenty of shirts to go on with.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

masterfred said:


> Manton, when you use the shoemaking analogy - paying for the last up front, with subsequent pairs being less expensive - is exactly what I'd prefer to do with shirts. Oh well, it doesn't matter at the moment, as I have plenty of shirts to go on with.





chorse123 said:


> This is my position as well, which I would say is a lot like the Jantzen logic Panzer mentioned above. Especially if you can use them, it makes sense to accept a few less-than-perfect shirts. But patience has a limit.





manton said:


> I disagree. I'd rather pay for a few beater shirts in the beginning than pay a consistently higher price for the life of my relationship with that maker. I don't know what (say) a $250 shirtmaker would have to charge to make economic sense of offering a sample shirt. $300? $350? $400? But whatever the upcharge, you pay it forever. Say you have to make two initial shirts to get to where you want to be. You are happy at the third. $500 wasted or invested, depending on how you look at it. If by making samples the maker would have to raise his prices by $50, at $250 per and no sample you will have recouped your investment ten shirts later. If the sample price-hike is higher, you will recoup it even sooner.
> 
> What you describe is the way most bespoke shoemakers work. They eat, or incorporate into their pricing, the cost of making the last. Perhaps we could all save money if they simply charged us for the last and then lowered the price of subsequent pairs.


In theory this sounds ideal. Consider this. I charge you $X at the beginning to get your pattern all fitted up.

Next year, you decide more exercise would be wise and your pecs grow 2" requiring a complete refit of your chest. Neck muscles, too ... and you need new yokes, the hardest part of the pattern. Along with that, the neck grows a half inch.

You command me to make the numeric changes. I do so. Shirt doesn't fit, yielding the following questions:

1] Do I get to charge you for making the alterations to the pattern you only paid me to make at the beginning and for which you did not sign a lifetime service contract?

2] Who eats the shirt which won't fit because when your neck muscles built up, your shoulder slope changed and the initial pattern has become virtually useless?

I think that's one of the reasons the 'who owns the pattern' discussions become so contentious. If I own it, then fitting you is my responsibility and any errors mine to eat. If you own it and I become the supplier of pattern storage, fabric, and make, all of a sudden the entire transaction becomes murky. Attribution of responsibility is lost, heated discussions ensue ... and another thread begins at AskAndy's.


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## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

manton said:


> Since they're already talking about banning me, I have nothing to lose.
> 
> I am, I guess, AK's only non-"price immune" customer. I have a small number of his shirts. They are better made and fit better than any other shirts I own. I have tried all (I believe) of the NY makers, and two foreign stalwarts (T&A and Charvet). My only experience with handsewn shirts is Borrelli MTM.
> 
> ...


Manton: What a great post! Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I'm sure I would love AK shirts. But I have to decide whether to part with the money.


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## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Next year, you decide more exercise would be wise and your pecs grow 2" requiring a complete refit of your chest. Neck muscles, too ... and you need new yokes, the hardest part of the pattern. Along with that, the neck grows a half inch.


Alex: Interesting question. How do you handle a situation in which an existing client adds or loses weight significantly? Do you start the process anew or do you adjust what you have?


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## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

manton said:


> What you describe is the way most bespoke shoemakers work. They eat, or incorporate into their pricing, the cost of making the last. Perhaps we could all save money if they simply charged us for the last and then lowered the price of subsequent pairs.


I own three pair of John Lobb bespoke shoes. I bought them in 1995 or 1996. The price of each pair was the same although they are all made from the same last. I never questioned JL about this because the shoes are so comfortable. I have no experience with any other bespoke shoemaker. JL's price is very high (currently about $4,300) but if you like the shoes and want the JL look and feel you must pay the price. I still wear my JL shoes and love them. If I recall correctly I paid about $2200 a pair and don't regret parting with the money although I am a middle class worker bee.


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## jrandyv (Apr 3, 2006)

It's possible that in a few years I may be in a position to order Alex's shirts. For someone who lives in a region with no real custom alternatives, if I can spend 1-2 weeks or so in NYC to complete his fitting process, it would then be completed and I could order as I wished in the future in the confidence of, as described earlier, extraordinary fit and quality. The option of doing 2-3 Geneva shirts with interim changes obviously wouldn't work. I have been doing something similarly with RTW shirts from Charvet and T & A at $300-$400. All other things being equal, including being able to reasonably afford the price, the difference between $3000 for 8 top level Genevas and $6000 for Alex would be I think worth it for those in my situation, if you value the best shirts available, as others above have described.


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## masterfred (Sep 3, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> In theory this sounds ideal. Consider this. I charge you $X at the beginning to get your pattern all fitted up.
> 
> Next year, you decide more exercise would be wise and your pecs grow 2" requiring a complete refit of your chest. Neck muscles, too ... and you need new yokes, the hardest part of the pattern. Along with that, the neck grows a half inch.
> 
> ...


Of itself, I'm not one of those people who wants to argue about who owns the pattern; I've always assumed it to belong to the maker, not the client, and used exclusively for the client. Said pattern should also reflect the client's corporeal fluctuations; I'm not sure what I think about who bears should bear the cost of those changes. I don't think (but don't definitively know) that, say, SR tailors charge the client extra when he gains or loses weight, and his suit pattern has to be amended. Differences in construction aside (I know a shirt isn't a suit coat), aren't changes to be expected, and therefore a consideration for any maker?

Anyway, this is a long-winded response to say that I still would rather pay a greater fee upfront when commissioning shirts to get a solid crack at a run of shirts that fits well, and not necessarily have the "beater" shirts for use while my pattern is being perfected. How changes are made when the pattern changes due to my body changing are another matter.


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## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I think that's one of the reasons the 'who owns the pattern' discussions become so contentious. If I own it, then fitting you is my responsibility and any errors mine to eat. If you own it and I become the supplier of pattern storage, fabric, and make, all of a sudden the entire transaction becomes murky. Attribution of responsibility is lost, heated discussions ensue ... and another thread begins at AskAndy's.


Here! here!


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## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> In theory this sounds ideal. Consider this. I charge you $X at the beginning to get your pattern all fitted up.
> 
> Next year, you decide more exercise would be wise and your pecs grow 2" requiring a complete refit of your chest. Neck muscles, too ... and you need new yokes, the hardest part of the pattern. Along with that, the neck grows a half inch.
> 
> ...


Under the "arrangement" I described above, there is no charge for pattern making. But there is also no sample. Thus it's incumbent on the client to keep track of his preferences, body fluctuations, etc. If he wants his pattern changed, it's on him to say when and how and by how much -- in consultation with the maker, of course. Whatever the outcome, the client pays.

The fact is, shirtmakers who make samples are rare. Shirtmakers who make samples whenever they suspect the client's body has changed are even rarer. I'm sure we all admire your willingness to go the extra mile in ways that no other makers do. But you charge a premium for that willingness (and for other things). Some people would rather eat a shirt now and then at vastly lower cost than pay prices three times as high for every shirt for the peace of mind of knowing that any weight gain/loss will be accomodated by the maker.


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## erdavis (Sep 19, 2004)

manton said:


> I recently referred a client to AK. When he asked me the difference between AK and other shirtmakers, I said that the make of the best of the others was maybe 70-75% of Kabbaz, and the fit -- after working through several shirts -- maybe 80-85%. (Those numbers are just silly guesses. The real figures might be higher; but you get the point.) But the price of the others can be less than one-third what AK charges for one shirt. AK says that, to get that additional (say) 20% improvement, he has to spend a lot more than 20%. Since I don't know where to get shirts as good as his at any price, I can only assume he is telling the truth. I have, however, decided that the substantial additional price I have to pay to get that marginal improvement is simply not worth it to me.


Nicely written. With any product is there a point of diminishing return. The doesn't mean that the product isn't worth it, it just means that gains are harder found.

An example I always use is the difference between a $200, $400,$1000,$2,500, $4,000 and $10,000 bicycle. Early on the performance jumps are big between the $200 and the $400, but as you start increasing price paying for very small performance increases. Probably the difference between the $4,000 and $10,000 bicycle is only 1% if that much. But to a racer 1% equals a huge performance jump when considered over a long distance.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

healinginfluence said:


> Alex: Interesting question. How do you handle a situation in which an existing client adds or loses weight significantly? Do you start the process anew or do you adjust what you have?


The answer strictly depends upon how the fluctuation arrived. If, for instance, the 'tummy' grew, then I would alter the present pattern to account for the increased waist girth and cut one shirt to test it. If it were correct I would let the client buy it. If not, off to the scrap heap.

If, on the other hand, the fluctuation was achieved through a muscle-building workout program or a shape-altering yoga regimen, then the basic shape of the pattern would probably need changing. In this case, depending upon the quantitative nature of the change, I am much more likely to make a throwaway sample.



manton said:


> Under the "arrangement" I described above, there is no charge for pattern making. But there is also no sample. Thus it's incumbent on the client to keep track of his preferences, body fluctuations, etc. If he wants his pattern changed, it's on him to say when and how and by how much -- in consultation with the maker, of course. Whatever the outcome, the client pays.
> 
> The fact is, shirtmakers who make samples are rare. Shirtmakers who make samples whenever they suspect the client's body has changed are even rarer. I'm sure we all admire your willingness to go the extra mile in ways that no other makers do. But you charge a premium for that willingness (and for other things). Some people would rather eat a shirt now and then at vastly lower cost than pay prices three times as high for every shirt for the peace of mind of knowing that any weight gain/loss will be accomodated by the maker.


 I agree, sadly, that shirtmakers who make samples are rare. When I first began making shirts, samples were the rule and not the exception. All the guys made them. Some would fit and alter; others would fit and cut anew. But in all cases a sample was par for the course.

It would seem a legitimate request, at least to me, that any new client should be able to request a sample before the remainder of the order is cut and have that request granted.


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## jsprowls9 (Jun 24, 2005)

manton said:


> The fact is, shirtmakers who make samples are rare. Shirtmakers who make samples whenever they suspect the client's body has changed are even rarer.


I've recently received several emails to this effect. I must say, I'm shocked. I don't understand how a shirt can be made any other way. I'm fond of efficient methods, personally; but, short-circuiting a process is plain folly.

With a jacket or trousers, there are ways to cut (i.e inlays/outlays) that permit the tailor to make adjustments and refine the pattern without needing to cut a garment several times. However, shirts & underwear are much more precise and have little room for error or adjustment. That is, shirt seam allowances are mostly 1/4" to provide precise sewing and shaping. There is no room to adjust - you must cut another one.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

jsprowls9 said:


> I've recently received several emails to this effect. I must say, I'm shocked. I don't understand how a shirt can be made any other way. I'm fond of efficient methods, personally; but, short-circuiting a process is plain folly.
> 
> With a jacket or trousers, there are ways to cut (i.e inlays/outlays) that permit the tailor to make adjustments and refine the pattern without needing to cut a garment several times. However, shirts & underwear are much more precise and have little room for error or adjustment. That is, shirt seam allowances are mostly 1/4" to provide precise sewing and shaping. There is no room to adjust - you must cut another one.


 Damn. Were those seam allowances supposed to be 1/4"? Oh, well, live and learn I say.


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## Smooth Jazz (Apr 28, 2004)

Panzeraxe said:


> I don't believe Colban travels to the U.S. to fit clients - perhaps I am mistaken. Panzer


Saw him two Saturdays ago in BG

He is here in NY periodically -- not sure if he fits clients in that time


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## Smooth Jazz (Apr 28, 2004)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Some do.
> 
> Review.
> 
> Of course, the second reviewer may not feel the same way since the center placket seam ripped open on the front of his linen & cotton shirt. :icon_pale:


Are you sure it wasn't a center vent specially designed for summer?


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## Khoa (Aug 20, 2005)

manton, great write up. Any chance that you might post some photographs of your AK shirts? The only AK shirt I have ever seen being worn was on Alex himself, in photographs from CSE.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Nantucket Red said:


> There you are, perched on the ledge. As the crowd clamors for you to jump, a lone voice in the crowd admonishes you to set your self afire.


That is a f&$#!*g riot! Best two sentences in the last year at least!


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## amlai (Jan 31, 2007)

While we're on the topic of custom shirts, I figure I might as well write up my experiences with the few places in NYC that I've had shirts made at.

Brooks Brothers Digital Tailoring
This is MTM rather than custom. They use a white light scanner to measure you and the computer computes how to make the shirt, though this can be modified. The good part about BB is the fact that they have no minimum order. The fit is better than off the rack, but definitely not perfect. The bad part is that I probably went through 5 different modifications to the computed measurements and spent a sizable sum of money there before I gave up on using them for custom shirts.

Brooks Brothers Custom / MTM
This is also really MTM, but they call it custom if I recall. In this case, a live human being measures you. Again, no minimum order. The fit was in this case much better than what I got in their digital dept. However, I found the fit still a bit blousier and the arm holes not as high as I would like. I only had one shirt done through this and didn't bother to try to have more made. The main reason for this was that both the Digital and Custom depts use the same ordering and manufacturing process, the only difference being how you are measured.

The Shirt Store
I was measured by Carol, the proprietor. She saw my best fitting "custom" shirt from Brooks Brothers and told me that nobody would believe I was wearing a custom shirt. (E.g., the yoke was about .5" too small on each shoulder.) In any case, the shirts I received, while better than Brooks Brothers had a number of issues. I found the chest area to still have too much material and the arm holes too low. I inquired about this, but they did not believe it to be a problem and in fact advised me that this was the way a shirt was supposed to fit. Perhaps this is their "house style." The sleeve lengths across multiple orders were rarely correct (off by as much as inches too long), but of course they would correct this at no charge. Supposedly they would "update" the pattern, but obviously it wasn't getting updated considering the rate of error. For those that care about this, to my recollection, pattern matching wasn't very good. Their collars aren't the best either.

Eredi Pisano
In contrast to the above, I have had pretty good luck here. I was measured by Mory, the manager. I believe he does the measurements for all of the custom clothing. Their pricing on custom shirts is actually about the same as their off the rack shirts. The measurements are sent to Italy, where the shirts are tailored. The minimum order was 6 shirts. The fit is quite slim and the arm holes are high. The first shirt I got back as a test shirt fit fairly well. Fit adjustments were made to the shirt using a local alteration tailor. (If the shirt completely doesn't fit, such as too small, I don't know what they would do though.) After wearing the shirt and sending it the cleaners a few times to ensure the fit was correct, I brought the shirt back and it was sent back to Italy for the pattern to be corrected and the rest of the order to be made. Eredi Pisano will let you do "interesting" things to the shirt such as contrast color stitching on the buttons, different fabric linings on the band shirt collars or placket, different fabric underneath the collar. They also offer hand stitched buttons and button holes. They have a 2-button collar if people are interested in that, but the collar point length is quite large. (And can't be changed. One can only select from stock collars.) I thought the pattern matching to be pretty good.

To the best of my recollection, Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) at all of the above was approximately $200.

Unfortunately, I have not tried any of the other shirtmakers previously mentioned, so I can't compare these to the previously mentioned ones. I'm interested in trying some other places, but with the minimum order, it gets to be an expensive experiment.


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## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Smooth Jazz said:


> Saw him two Saturdays ago in BG
> 
> He is here in NY periodically -- not sure if he fits clients in that time


Smooth! As one of AAAC's longest-standing members, and one with impeccable taste (and, it would seem, a budget to match), we need your regular input more now than ever. Glad you stopped by again...don't be a stranger.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Teacher said:


> Smooth! As one of AAAC's longest-standing members, and one with impeccable taste (and, it would seem, a budget to match), we need your regular input more now than ever. Glad you stopped by again...don't be a stranger.


 I know him well. If you want to have a discussion of his "taste", better start a new thread or this one's gonna be a collection of everone ROFLTAO. Except for his taste in women, which, like Manton, is impeccable.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Of course, decorum forbids comment on his taste in shirtmakers.


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## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Manton,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these shirts.

I am still in the trial shirt stage with Alex, I have no doubts that I will keep him as my special wear shirt maker for many reasons, but I also use Montreal's "said to be" top shirt maker.
He makes a mock up shirt, or so you are led to believe, 
he bills you for it after it has been reworked a few times!

Alex's trial effort is a far better shirt than this local maker's finished product.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Concordia said:


> Of course, decorum forbids comment on his taste in shirtmakers.


Exactly my point. I hear he uses some grouchy old geezer from a country hick town.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

amlai said:


> Brooks Brothers Custom / MTM
> This is also really MTM, but they call it custom if I recall. In this case, a live human being measures you. Again, no minimum order. The fit was in this case much better than what I got in their digital dept. However, I found the fit still a bit blousier and the arm holes not as high as I would like. I only had one shirt done through this and didn't bother to try to have more made. The main reason for this was that both the Digital and Custom depts use the same ordering and manufacturing process, the only difference being how you are measured.


Brooks Brothers MTM: never again. Too many mistakes, too much inconsistency between shirts part of the same order, total lack of communication between the stores and the factory, sometimes too snobby.

I also had a recent experience with Borrelli MTM through the NYC boutique:

Horrible quality control issues. Fit was poor, as if they just ordered an OTR shirt. Monogram in the wrong place, wrong color. Neglected to make the left cuff bigger for my watch. I've never gotten a shirt this bad from them--although, it's been years I suppose.


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## mmkn (Jan 14, 2005)

Matt, I'm looking forward to your inputs on your Matuozzo's shirts.


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## mafoofan (May 16, 2005)

mmkn said:


> Matt, I'm looking forward to your inputs on your Matuozzo's shirts.


Well, they should be coming in soon--any week now. I'll try to report on them on my blog, but exams are coming up so there may be a delay.


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## AvariceBespoke (Jan 7, 2007)

manton said:


> Since they're already talking about banning me, I have nothing to lose.
> 
> I am, I guess, AK's only non-"price immune" customer. I have a small number of his shirts. They are better made and fit better than any other shirts I own. I have tried all (I believe) of the NY makers, and two foreign stalwarts (T&A and Charvet). My only experience with handsewn shirts is Borrelli MTM.
> 
> I recently referred a client to AK. When he asked me the difference between AK and other shirtmakers, I said that the make of the best of the others was maybe 70-75% of Kabbaz, and the fit -- after working through several shirts -- maybe 80-85%. (Those numbers are just silly guesses. The real figures might be higher; but you get the point.) But the price of the others can be less than one-third what AK charges for one shirt. AK says that, to get that additional (say) 20% improvement, he has to spend a lot more than 20%. Since I don't know where to get shirts as good as his at any price, I can only assume he is telling the truth. I have, however, decided that the substantial additional price I have to pay to get that marginal improvement is simply not worth it to me.


Great review - very informative.


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## AvariceBespoke (Jan 7, 2007)

masterfred said:


> My first batch of Geneva shirts did have several errors in fit; as the other posters have noted, the customer bears the cost of that. I'd rather pay a more up front for trial shirt(s) that set the template for success, not have actual delivered shirts that are less than what they ought to be.


Did you notice the errors or did eugene/mike notice them?

One thing I noticed in the review in this thread about Alex is that he takes it upon himself as the shirt artist/professional to make sure it comes out perfect. I have a feeling that the other shirtmakers are not that particular about the end product and won't make small changes unless the client brings it up - although i may be wrong


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## AvariceBespoke (Jan 7, 2007)

healinginfluence said:


> JL's price is very high (currently about $4,300) but if you like the shoes and want the JL look and feel you must pay the price. .


JL is beautiful but 4300 is really epxnsive!


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## AvariceBespoke (Jan 7, 2007)

Khoa said:


> manton, great write up. Any chance that you might post some photographs of your AK shirts? The only AK shirt I have ever seen being worn was on Alex himself, in photographs from CSE.


+1


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## Sgt_Strider (Oct 10, 2006)

I don't understand why you did this, but why did you have a " Thomas Mason Silverline (or equivalent shirting) Price: $225" for each shirt? Did all of those companies use Thomas Mason Silverline fabric?


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## Sgt_Strider (Oct 10, 2006)

I'm surprised no one tried Liste-rouge here. They're located in NYC.


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## AvariceBespoke (Jan 7, 2007)

Sgt_Strider said:


> I'm surprised no one tried Liste-rouge here. They're located in NYC.


never tried them

these look MTM shirts

how are they?


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## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Sgt_Strider said:


> I'm surprised no one tried Liste-rouge here. They're located in NYC.





AvariceBespoke said:


> never tried them
> these look MTM shirts
> how are they?


https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=67149


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## masterfred (Sep 3, 2003)

AvariceBespoke said:


> Did you notice the errors or did eugene/mike notice them?
> 
> One thing I noticed in the review in this thread about Alex is that he takes it upon himself as the shirt artist/professional to make sure it comes out perfect. I have a feeling that the other shirtmakers are not that particular about the end product and won't make small changes unless the client brings it up - although i may be wrong


Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier. Mike measured me up, and he could see without my saying anything that the sleeves were too short; the collar was just fractionally tight enough that after washing it would have been uncomfortable. To his credit, Mike quickly made the necessary changes, and it worked out well in the end; he also didn't charge me for the initial shirt that didn't fit. I still would rather have a muslin fitting up front to avoid problems.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

A fascinating thread.

Clearly Alex is one of the last artist with shirts. Whereas, the others, just make shirts a bit better than mtm or otr. With the others and so much of their slopy work you are paying for it, so the cost is higher than you think. Alex, on the other hand, is also an artist, so, in that a lone you are paying more.

With Alexs shirts, if I would have a few, I'd wear them a lot least my body changes toward heavy- that way I get my moneys worth in wearing them.

Shirts and coat linings should be loose so they don't interfer with the fit of the coat. Shirt collars are seen, so they matter in shape to enhance the wearers appearance. Not everything that could be applied to the word "loose" would be wise.


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## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

It is a fascinating thread. But not everyone can afford Alex's shirts. And so we enter the realm of compromise -- something Alex need not do. The issue then it seems to me is whether the compromises are acceptable to the customer. And don't we all make compromises in one aspect of our lives or another?


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## Sgt_Strider (Oct 10, 2006)

medwards said:


> https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=67149


lol, I started that thread! I meant I was surprised that people in this thread have not tried Liste-rouge!


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## Shirtmaven (Jan 2, 2004)

I just read through this thread.
as Panzer has not posted in quite some time I will add my two cents
He was easily one of the most unpleasant customers to work with.
He has spent quite a bit of time in the gym. he is quite bulked up. He wanted the shirt super tight. the Jantzen shirt he wore in during the fitting, looked as if it was going to rip off of his body a'la the incredible Hulk.
FWIW.
Carl

Carl


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## emc894 (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry to revive this old (but good) thread. Can anyone tell me if Geneva has an order minimum? I think I am going to give them a shot for my first bespoke shirt. 

Thanks a lot.


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## gopherblue (May 18, 2009)

Yes, I believe Geneva has an order minimum, but I dont think they rigidly enforce it. I seem to recall it is four shirts, but I had them make the first and I tried it out before placing the order for the remaining 3. Mike and Eugene are great--highly recommend.


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