# Working buttonholes on blazer and sports coat sleeves



## EmbraBhoy (Sep 15, 2008)

I have a BB blazer and a BB sports jacket that presently have 4 button sleeves with no stitching/faux button holes? I'd like to have working buttonholes on each, especially the blazer as the button on the sleeve jangle rather annoyingly?

Can this be done?


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

Yes. BB recently charged $12 per hole for machine-stitched holes. You may find an independent tailor who will do hand-stitched holes.

Do not have buttonholes cut until you are absolutely certain you are happy with the sleeve length. If you are relatively new to tailored clothes, your ideas of acceptable and proper sleeve length may change as you learn more and develop your own style -- mine did.


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## EmbraBhoy (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks! I think the blazer may need shortened, but the sportscoat is good to go, as it were.


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## Pipps (Dec 20, 2005)

Do you really need working sleeve buttons? Think twice. It is completely unnecessary, in today's world it can be somewhat vulgar, and as Birdie's own words, you may well regret as you fine tune your wardrobe further down the line. Future proof your wardrobe. Don't restrict yourself with affectations.


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## yachtie (May 11, 2006)

Mr. Pipps said:


> Do you really need working sleeve buttons? Think twice. It is completely unnecessary, in today's world it can be somewhat vulgar, and as Birdie's own words, you may well regret as you fine tune your wardrobe further down the line. Future proof your wardrobe. Don't restrict yourself with affectations.


Getting them isn't vulgar and is standard for bespoke jackets. Leaving them unbuttoned is.


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't think you can add functional button holes to a ready made jacket...the sleeves need to be prepped for that...

Also, in the event you can, I think it is tacky to add functional button holes to a ready made jacket...it is like peeling off S550 numbers on the back of a Mercedes and replacing them with "S65 AMG"...


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

WG is both right and wrong.

Some (most?) RTW jackets are not designed for working cuffs to be added, but Brooks Brothers jackets are.

The Mercedes analogy is imperfect: the new badge doesn't make the car go faster, but the working cuff buttons do allow you to roll up your sleeves.


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

Bird's One View said:


> WG is both right and wrong.
> 
> Some (most?) RTW jackets are not designed for working cuffs to be added, but Brooks Brothers jackets are.
> 
> The Mercedes analogy is imperfect: the new badge doesn't make the car go faster, but the working cuff buttons do allow you to roll up your sleeves.


You roll up the sleeves of your jacket?  (that is one look THANKFULLY I have yet to see)...and yes, I know the origin of functional buttons


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## culverwood (Feb 13, 2006)

On the contrary my tailor on a ordinary coat will make 2 working and 2 non working buttons but on a blazer 4 working buttons so that the shanks are not sitting proud of the sleeve.


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## Marcus Brody (Oct 11, 2008)

I've now seen several times on this forum people refer to working sleeve buttons as "vulgar" or overly showy. Is this really the consensus view? I feel like if I wore a blazer with working sleeve buttons almost no one I interact with would notice and few of the people who did would understand the difference and see me as showing off. Is there a wider understanding of working sleeve buttons than I realize?


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## videocrew (Jun 25, 2007)

What if one is, in fact, a surgeon? I myself have no business with working buttons on my sleeves as an aspiring lawyer, as it seems unlikely that someone will need me to roll up my sleeves and write a brief while on the subway...


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

I've never understoof the benefit of working buttonholes on jacket sleeves. Who wants to roll up their jacket sleeves? If you are going to perform a task that might do harm to your jacket, wouldn't you just take off your jacket to prevent said harm from occuring. What doctor performs surgery while wearing his suit jacket? I think there are more interesting features to add to a jacket that actually might provide a logical benefit.


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## Aaron in Allentown (Oct 26, 2007)

nolan50410 said:


> I've never understoof the benefit of working buttonholes on jacket sleeves.


For the same reason that people buy watches with mechanical movements and water resistance to 1000M. Quartz movements are much more accurate, and most people won't even wear the watch in the shower, let alone below 1000M.

The reason is that some people appreciate these subtle details and want to include them on items they have made for themselves.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> For the same reason that people buy watches with mechanical movements and water resistance to 1000M. Quartz movements are much more accurate, and most people won't even wear the watch in the shower, let alone below 1000M.
> 
> The reason is that some people appreciate these subtle details and want to include them on items they have made for themselves.


I guess that explains that. I'm not a Rolex or Omega guy either.


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## The Louche (Jan 30, 2008)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> For the same reason that people buy watches with mechanical movements and water resistance to 1000M. Quartz movements are much more accurate, and most people won't even wear the watch in the shower, let alone below 1000M.
> 
> The reason is that some people appreciate these subtle details and want to include them on items they have made for themselves.


Well said Aaron. Very well said. TONS of the clothing-related things that we discuss ad nausea here have ZERO practical value. Is there any practical value in pick stitching? Or MOP buttons when modern synthetics can come so close in terms of durability and slender profile? Would anyone make fun of someone for having a brightly colored lining put into a new jacket?

I also agree with one post above that on a blazer with shanked buttons, working holes tend to mitigate the tendency of the buttons to flop about.

All that being said, though. I'd err on reserving my working cuffs for MTM and bespoke items.

(BTW Wardrobe Girl - nice mention of the badge engineered Benz - I hate it when I see that. You sound like a lady after my own heart with your automotive knowledge.)


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

The Louche said:


> (BTW Wardrobe Girl - nice mention of the badge engineered Benz - I hate it when I see that. You sound like a lady after my own heart with your automotive knowledge.)


Unfortunately, my dad never had any sons to go car shopping with so I picked that stuff up pretty early on...it has actually helped a lot in my business as so many guys can relate to car "stuff"


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## SameOldShadows (Sep 3, 2008)

I think the real question is not why anyone would want working buttons, but why anyone would want stitched-on show buttons that add no functionality and *detract* from the aesthetics if they are examined closely. I would rather have a minimalist modern coat with no buttons at all rather than have some mass-produced "fake" buttons that are intended to make your garment look "traditional" (but only do this by assuming viewer ignorance).

This is a fun riff on working buttons by Tom Wolfe:

https://www.thematerialist.net/secretvice.html

I don't think it should be considered vulgar to leave a sleeve button or two undone. It is merely a way of saying that you think about sartorial matters. And if thinking about sartorial matters at all is vulger (which I think is the real implication here), then, well, everyone on this forum is guilty of being vulgar.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

nolan50410 said:


> I've never understoof the benefit of working buttonholes on jacket sleeves. Who wants to roll up their jacket sleeves? If you are going to perform a task that might do harm to your jacket, wouldn't you just take off your jacket to prevent said harm from occuring. What doctor performs surgery while wearing his suit jacket? I think there are more interesting features to add to a jacket that actually might provide a logical benefit.


I don't understand why folks want them either. Last Spring Carroll & Co. had some casual RTW jackets with working sleeve buttons. Either they had a lot of customers with the appropriate length arms or there are a number of men in the area with blue jackets with the wrong length sleeves.

Cheers, Jim.


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> For the same reason that people buy watches with mechanical movements and water resistance to 1000M. Quartz movements are much more accurate, and most people won't even wear the watch in the shower, let alone below 1000M.
> 
> The reason is that some people appreciate these subtle details and want to include them on items they have made for themselves.


I think that anyone who is 1000M underwater has much worse problems than having their watch function.

Cheers, Jim.


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## wheredidyougetthathat (Mar 26, 2006)

Marcus Brody said:


> I've now seen several times on this forum people refer to working sleeve buttons as "vulgar" or overly showy. Is this really the consensus view? I feel like if I wore a blazer with working sleeve buttons almost no one I interact with would notice and few of the people who did would understand the difference and see me as showing off. Is there a wider understanding of working sleeve buttons than I realize?


It's perfectly o.k. to have working sleeve buttons. The vulgar aspect only arises when they're left unbuttoned. That serves absolutely no purpose except to say "hey look at me everybody! I've got working buttonholes on my jacket sleeves!" Otherwise, no problem.


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## Unregistered (Mar 13, 2008)

My bespoke suits all have them

I wouldn't ever unbutton them...

...or I hope I won't. They're just there so I know they are.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Fastidious?*

The only practical thing that I can think of for functional coat sleeve buttons is when one is in a lavatory that is none too clean and removing the coat and hanging it up isn't really an option. The sleeves can be rolled up to wash up and thus avoid getting them wet. But then, why would a coat with functional button holes be worn in that setting at all? Oh, I suppose nature could call on the drive to another venue:icon_smile_big:


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## rgrossicone (Jan 27, 2008)

*Painting A Vulgar Picture*

I hardly call wanting working cuffs vulgar...I also don't see leaving them unbuttoned as being vulgar either. It simply is another way you can express yourself through your clothing. I like to leave a button or two undone when I wear working cuffs...I guess I'm just a Vulgarian.:aportnoy:


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^I agree with rgrossicone but, while there is nothing inherently "vulgarian" about working buttonholes on a jacket cuff (be they buttoned or unbuttoned), their presence really does complicate and increase the cost of having the sleeves on such a garment shortened a bit! Having just had such an operation performed, I must tell you, the cost was half again as much and the results were marginally satisfactory. Aah well, we must all live and learn!


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## JayJay (Oct 8, 2007)

I have them on all my jackets and blazers. I like buttons that function, even though I don't use them.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> For the same reason that people buy watches with mechanical movements and water resistance to 1000M. Quartz movements are much more accurate, and most people won't even wear the watch in the shower, let alone below 1000M.
> 
> The reason is that some people appreciate these subtle details and want to include them on items they have made for themselves.


Right on.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Aaron in Allentown said:


> The reason is that some people appreciate these subtle details and want to include them on items they have made for themselves.


So the reason is there is none, correct?

I've had the buttons removed from most of my sleeves (well, _had_ is stretching it; _I've _done it.) But on some vented jackets, particularly duals, I've put buttons and corresponding holes down there, usually hidden holes on the underside of the flap, with the buttons on the underlay. Thoughts?​


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Most of my blazers are not working cuff, that is because I have a mixture of British, Italian and American brands. From the ones with working cuffs, only with one do I uncuffed the first two buttons; however, that is because of the way I wear the blazer - it is a casual RL Polo blazer and I do the the RL curl.

I used to be picky but not now. Although if a brand expects me to spend over £600 on a blazer, I expect working cuffs.

My main overcoat would not look good with working cuffs because of the thickness, the same with my tweed.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Taking a JAB*

I got two DJs from JAB and had working cuffs done, as they had included cuff buttons to be attached after the sleeves were adjusted, if needed, and the way they finished the cuff allowed for it. Cost $18 per button hole, plus something to do more work on the cuff. I leave one or two unbuttoned when feeling snotty:icon_smile_big:


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

On one of the threads on this forum, someone spent $199 on a BB blazer and to get buttoned cuffs it would cost $12 each hole. If he got 8 holes made, that is nearly 50% to the cost of the blazer, which in my opinion is not worth it.

When I was trying on blazers from Aquascutum, the sales person started talking about working cuffs and I said I did not like Hackett style. He mentioned he knew a tailor who could add buttons and since then thought it would be something to consider to see how they would look.


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

wheredidyougetthathat said:


> It's perfectly o.k. to have working sleeve buttons.


It's also OK to have a jacket made without working buttonholes on the sleeves. I've done this before. Only you, the other bespoke enthusiasts, and women who make their own clothes know what you're really wearing.


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## dfloyd (May 7, 2006)

*Not all BB suits are prepped for workng buttons ,,,,*

Only the 1818 suits and sport coats/blazers and the Country Clu blazers plus Golden Fleece and mtm, which is most of what they sell.
I have working buttons on all my BB jackets and on the JAB Joseph jackets. If you think they are vulgar, I can only say I'm glad I don't have to do business with you.We would not get along.


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## Zenny (Sep 5, 2008)

I leave my shirt cuff buttons undone, so people can see that I have working buttons!


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## Earl of Ormonde (Sep 5, 2008)

Bird's One View said:


> but the working cuff buttons do allow you to roll up your sleeves.


You do realise that it is 2008 not 1988? :icon_smile_big:

My God, I'm glad I'm not in Ca. or Fa. to witness the horrors of rolled up blazer sleeves....
Oh the humanity...make it stop Will :icon_smile_wink:


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## gnatty8 (Nov 7, 2006)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> I don't think you can add functional button holes to a ready made jacket...the sleeves need to be prepped for that...
> 
> Also, in the event you can, I think it is tacky to add functional button holes to a ready made jacket...it is like peeling off S550 numbers on the back of a Mercedes and replacing them with "S65 AMG"...


This is quite funny and actually, quite correct.


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

If the button holes don't work, why have buttons?


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## logicalfrank (Oct 16, 2008)

Edwin Ek said:


> If the button holes don't work, why have buttons?


The buttons are the climactic element of the sleeve. Imagine your eyes following the whole length of sleeve from the shoulder down. You get to then end and then there's nothing there. How do you feel? Pretty terrible. You looked at that whole sleeve and there's not a button to be seen. Sad, sad.

If for a particular jacket, it is undesirable for whatever reason to pay the cost of bespoke clothing, then out of necessity one must substitute non-working buttons in order to prevent the sleeve viewer from becoming disappointed with the sleeve end.


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## steveincharlotte (Aug 24, 2006)

logicalfrank said:


> If for a particular jacket, it is undesirable for whatever reason to pay the cost of bespoke clothing, then out of necessity one must substitute non-working buttons in order to prevent the sleeve viewer from becoming disappointed with the sleeve end.


The sleeve end is most frequently the least disappointing of all. With or without buttons.


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## PatentLawyerNYC (Sep 21, 2007)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> I don't think you can add functional button holes to a ready made jacket...the sleeves need to be prepped for that...
> 
> Also, in the event you can, I think it is tacky to add functional button holes to a ready made jacket...it is like peeling off S550 numbers on the back of a Mercedes and replacing them with "S65 AMG"...


I have to recognize your appreciation of the distinction between an S550 and an S65. Can you talk to my wife? :icon_smile:


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## TheWardrobeGirl (Mar 24, 2008)

PatentLawyerNYC said:


> I have to recognize your appreciation of the distinction between an S550 and an S65. Can you talk to my wife? :icon_smile:


I would be happy to converse with your wife...if you are debating between purchasing these two cars I figure you might have a few extra dollars for a "consulting fee"...I would love a GL...320, 450 or 550 - I am not picky..I do like black with black interior...:icon_smile_big:


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## jasonbourne (Dec 10, 2007)

*The purpose of "Surgeon's" Cuffs*

I believe that the buttons on jacket sleeve were made workable for surgeons so they could roll up their sleeves during an operation. Fortunately for hygiene, doctors do not wear suits much anymore. Unfortunately for style, well healed doctors wear the hideous monstrosities of "scubs"


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## jamgood (Feb 8, 2006)

The cloth overlap on the sleeve end should be at least one inch for functional button holes. I hope this is not vulgar or too controversial.

Streak o'lean, the connoisseur's fatback.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

jasonbourne said:


> I believe that the buttons on jacket sleeve were made workable for surgeons so they could roll up their sleeves during an operation. Fortunately for hygiene, doctors do not wear suits much anymore. Unfortunately for style, well healed doctors wear the hideous monstrosities of "scubs"


I'd much rather a surgeon wear scrubs than have the inconvenience of my blood on his worsted. :icon_smile_big:


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

in the long past surgeons did not roll up their sleeves when working.
they removed their jackets, and wore a leather or canvas apron. 

calling them surgeons sleeves is an incorrect term.
just like bespoke is incorrect when referring to construction.


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## adhoc (Oct 5, 2008)

Alex, I'm sorry but you are mistaken.

Below is the famous (in medical/surgical circles at least) painting, "The Gross Clinic" by Eakins. It dates from the 1870s. You can clearly see that they have their jackets on. Whether working jacket sleeve buttonholes were invented _for _surgeons, however, is a different matter.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

In todays world the sports coat or blazer are the two coats where rolling up the sleeves can be handy. 

Suits, morning, after six coats there really is no reason anymore for rolling up the sleeves unless you are changeing a tire when on a muddy road.


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## Mathew J (Mar 31, 2007)

I'll chime in on this as well since the thought crossed my mind today...

Personally I am a stickler for detail, and I really dislike anything for "show", for example when driving around the other day I was looking at houses and wondered why so many slapped fake shutters on either sides of their street facing windows...the idea of fake shutters for nothing more than aesthetics seemed silly to me, and having them only on one side of the house seemed even worse.

Same thing with decorative buttons on sleeves...I would rather have them actually work than just be there for show if I have the option.

Totally useless, sure, but personally I think it just seems nicer.

And I really don't buy into that whole reserved only for bespoke items argument, if the garment is designed for working buttonholes (Joseph suits and blazers from JAB come to mind) then that is fine by me as long as it looks right, but I probabily wouldn't bother modifying something that wasn't ready for this or if I had concerns that my style would change.


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## Bird's One View (Dec 31, 2007)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> You roll up the sleeves of your jacket?  (that is one look THANKFULLY I have yet to see)...and yes, I know the origin of functional buttons


I haven't, but I feel better knowing that I could if I needed to.

In that respect I'm like the Protestant couple in Monty Python's THE MEANING OF LIFE.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> You roll up the sleeves of your jacket?  (that is one look THANKFULLY I have yet to see


Will a picture do? I missed this thread the first go around but I've seen several pictures of well dressed men of bygone days with their sleeves rolled up, such as David Niven in this picture.

https://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=davidnivencu6.jpg

I think functioning buttonholes are terrific, but only if they are actually going to be unbuttoned every now and then. Otherwise, I don't really see that they serve much purpose. Unfortunately I don't have any jackets with them, but I wish I did.

Cruiser


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## Portly_polar_bear (Oct 15, 2008)

Why does having working buttonholes prevent you from having the sleeve shortened? I asked my tailor about this and he didn't understand either - he said the only cost differences arise when the jacket has a pattern and he has to spend time matching it up at the shoulder.

I'm assuming from the assertion that working buttonholes prevent shortening that it's also common to shorten from the bottom? Don't you have a whole load of stitching there anyway?


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## jdl (Dec 13, 2008)

I always specify working buttons on MTM, partly because I like them - particularly on a Blazer - but also for practical reasons. 

Many tailors will try and save cloth by turning the cloth over only a very short distance into the sleeve; this can lead to the lining showing and /or cause the lining to restrict the set of a double cuff shirt or to foul the cuff links.

In my (limited) experience if you specify a working cuff the tailor will take the cloth up inside the sleeve till it passes the top cuff button and you avoid these problems.


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## a tailor (May 16, 2005)

adhoc said:


> Alex, I'm sorry but you are mistaken.
> 
> Below is the famous (in medical/surgical circles at least) painting, "The Gross Clinic" by Eakins. It dates from the 1870s. You can clearly see that they have their jackets on. Whether working jacket sleeve buttonholes were invented _for _surgeons, however, is a different matter.


that painting, artists license.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

TheWardrobeGirl said:


> ...it is like peeling off S550 numbers on the back of a Mercedes and replacing them with "S65 AMG"...


Darn it! Now it's back out to the garage again. I didn't think anyone would notice. :icon_smile_wink:


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

I have to disagree with TWG

I would say it is like taking the engine out of a S550 and on putting in a S65 AMG engine instead. 

There is nothing fake about adding buttoned cuffs. It is not like someone is getting a cheap blazer and then getting a Turnbull & Asser logo sewn in.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I thought the general consensus here was that it should only be done if the jacket allows for it -- i.e. is already vented and has loose buttons ready for the tailor to put in.


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## ToryBoy (Oct 13, 2008)

Jovan said:


> I thought the general consensus here was that it should only be done if the jacket allows for it -- i.e. is already vented and has loose buttons ready for the tailor to put in.


I agree.

However, if someone wants working cuffs added to a blazer that is not prepped for it, up to them.


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## Mordred (Apr 20, 2010)

logicalfrank said:


> The buttons are the climactic element of the sleeve. Imagine your eyes following the whole length of sleeve from the shoulder down. You get to then end and then there's nothing there. How do you feel? Pretty terrible. You looked at that whole sleeve and there's not a button to be seen. Sad, sad.
> 
> If for a particular jacket, it is undesirable for whatever reason to pay the cost of bespoke clothing, then out of necessity one must substitute non-working buttons in order to prevent the sleeve viewer from becoming disappointed with the sleeve end.


Surely it's even more soul destroying and miserable for said sleeve viewer, to then find that the very same buttons that had afforded him that contented "all is right with the world" feeling, turn out to be nothing more than a sham. 
The bottom falls through and that contentment gives way to despair and a feeling of intense paranoia - I mean if they will lie about the buttons and the button holes which are not really button holes - what else have they been lying about.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

Then there is the issue of cost--$18 a hole is $128, damn near the cost of some JAB jackets. But on many of the Asian tailors doing MTM the cost is much less. I've popped for surgeons cuffs on all my Ravi suits and jackets--but in 2007 it added all of $15 total to the cost. Now I think it's up to $20, but at $2.50 a buttonhole I think I can swing it.

Almost nobody notices them, but at a dinner last fall the guy sitting next to me asked "Do those sleeve bottons unbutton?" He was wearing a jacket that had probably cost him $3K--he was that type--with faux button holes. I undid a couple then buttoned them back up. "You probably got sold one they didn't quite finish, or a factory second..." I told him with a straight face. "Damn," was all he said. The look on his face was probably worth $18 a hole.


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## El_Abogado (Apr 21, 2009)

Do the jacket sleeves allow for working buttonholes? Do you want working buttonholes? Can you afford working buttonholes? If the answer is yes to all three, then by all means get working buttonholes. Don't listen to the the disembodied voices, expressed in electrons, of people you will never meet and probably have little in common with.

Some of my MTM suits don't have working buttonholes and all of my BB suits and odd jackets do have working button holes. I really could care less what some "purist" thinks.

Now, wearing brown shoes after 6PM? Never!


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

cdavant said:


> Almost nobody notices them, but at a dinner last fall the guy sitting next to me asked "Do those sleeve bottons unbutton?" He was wearing a jacket that had probably cost him $3K--he was that type--with faux button holes. I undid a couple then buttoned them back up. "You probably got sold one they didn't quite finish, or a factory second..." I told him with a straight face. "Damn," was all he said. The look on his face was probably worth $18 a hole.


Brilliant.


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## JAGMAJ (Feb 10, 2005)

ToryBoy said:


> I have to disagree with TWG
> 
> I would say it is like taking the engine out of a S550 and on putting in a S65 AMG engine instead.
> 
> There is nothing fake about adding buttoned cuffs. It is not like someone is getting a cheap blazer and then getting a Turnbull & Asser logo sewn in.


I agree with this assessment. Adding working buttonholes is an actual upgrade to the jacket, whereas changing a badge on a car is not. For example, I drive a 2003 Audi A6. The 2003 RS6 (a much more expensive car) has the same basic body but comes with a rear spoiler. So does the 2004 A6. I added an RS6 spoiler to my A6 because I really liked the way it looked and not to make it look like I have an RS6. Indeed, my car still has the A6 badge on the back and lacks the other signs of being an RS6. I view adding working buttonholes to a jacket as being along those lines--unless you try to pass off the jacket as being bespoke.

On a general note, I have no problem with people adding working buttonholes to an otherwise high quality jacket. I do, however, think that it is uncouth to intentionally leave a button undone to show off. It would be like, if someone asked you for the time, and you replied, "Let's see...my ROLEX says it's 2:00." Be proud of your own clothing and maybe secretly hope that other people notice your nice clothing, but don't intentionally flaunt it. If you feel the need to flaunt expensive items, then you really aren't at the social level you're trying to portray.


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## SpoonyJr (Jan 4, 2010)

What a fabulous article! Thanks for sharing. Where did it come from? I would love to read more from either Tom or other like-minded authors...


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## Martin Stall (Sep 11, 2006)

a tailor said:


> in the long past surgeons did not roll up their sleeves when working.
> they removed their jackets, and wore a leather or canvas apron.
> 
> calling them surgeons sleeves is an incorrect term.
> just like bespoke is incorrect when referring to construction.


As far as I know, a shirt used to be considered underwear, therefore it was inappropriate in the olden days for a gentleman to remove his coat. For this reason, any visiting doctor (were general physicians called surgeons in the past?) would be more than happy to treat his patients without the need to either stain his coat or be rude.

For the rest, nowadays working buttonholes serve only one purpose: for the wearer to be aware of a bit of luxury in his attire. (only when they are handmade, of course)

EDIT: which of course becomes a bit futile if the coat is factory-made


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## whistle_blower71 (May 26, 2006)

Martin,

What if the factory make handmade buttonholes?

*W_B*


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## Martin Stall (Sep 11, 2006)

Beats me. I guess a factory made coat, handmade or not, is already less luxurious. But it's all relative and mincing words in my opinion. Go with what you like best.


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## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

ToryBoy said:


> I have to disagree with TWG
> 
> I would say it is like taking the engine out of a S550 and on putting in a S65 AMG engine instead.
> 
> There is nothing fake about adding buttoned cuffs. It is not like someone is getting a cheap blazer and then getting a Turnbull & Asser logo sewn in.


This counter-analogy may not be perfect, but it is nonetheless close enough to be instructive. In any event ToryBoy's point is spot on. TWG's initial analogy works only if the purpose of the working buttons is to falsely signal bespoke. But it should be plain that this is not likely the case, since BB offers this option on jackets that are not bespoke. Indeed, I have two sport coats with working buttons: one is MTM and the other is RTW. In both cases the presence of working buttons was a surprise to me.


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## LindaA (Dec 10, 2014)

I suppose in our society of disposable clothes the buttonholes shouldn't matter. In a world of quality tailoring, the buttonholes matter a great deal. They are one of the various marks of true quality workmanship. Many tailors even skimp on the labor to only make the bottom buttonholes workable and a non-working at the top. Shame on them. I would prefer to see no vent rather than a non-working sleeve vent. By the same token, the button quality matters just as much. I finally tracked down some black and navy buffalo horn buttons made in the James Grove factory (closed in 2012) in England after much searching. Why spend weeks making a bespoke garment and then adding plastic buttons. It still boils down to quality v. quantity. Perhaps all eyes would not recognize but I know when I have finished that garment it has the absolute best available.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

LindaA, thanks for your thoughts and welcome to the forum.

Making only the top two functional is not them skimping on labor. It's actually so alterations are easier later on if the wearer gains weight or passes the garment onto someone else. Otherwise, lengthening sleeves past a 1/2" with all four buttons working is impossible. No shame there! But working buttonholes weren't always demanded by customers. In fact bespoke tailors initially hated making them since there was, and still really is, no actual purpose. Supposedly, a few customers specially requested the feature from their tailors and word got out pretty quickly.

Horn buttons haven't always been seen as a requisite for high quality tailored clothing either. For the longest time, bespoke tailors and high end clothiers would just put them on country suits and sport coats. Even Brioni was still putting plastic buttons on their suits into the '90s.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Jovan said:


> Horn buttons haven't always been seen as a requisite for high quality tailored clothing either. For the longest time, bespoke tailors and high end clothiers would just put them on country suits and sport coats. Even Brioni was still putting plastic buttons on their suits into the '90s.


+1. The best Savile Row tailors for years used plastic buttons for worsted suits since they thought horn was too rustic and only appropriate for tweeds and flannels. Standards certainly change.

And functional buttonholes on the cuffs have no bearing on the quality of a suit. They don't make a suit better. On ready-to-wear, they make a suit worse since the sleeves can't be altered.


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## Tim Correll (Jul 18, 2005)

I prefer Corozo buttons myself. Corozo is a high quality natural material that, fortunately, can legally and safely be color matched to the garment it's on. Corozo doesn't need harmful chemicals for color matching. Corozo, like horn but unlike mother of pearl (which is more on the casual side) is casual, dressy and formal at the same time, making it a versatile natural material.

Horn and mother of pearl, OTOH, can only be color matched using harmful chemicals, unfortunately, making color matching these natural materials dangerous and, in many cases, illegal.


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## cdavant (Aug 28, 2005)

The horror, not to mention the environmental impact, of coloring horn and MOP buttons must be right up there with the formaldehyde used to make a non-iron shirt...


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