# I saw a man in a 4 button suit today....



## mark221 (Oct 3, 2007)

when I was out running errands, and I want to share my impressions with you. With 4 buttons on the Jacket, it had a very high gorge. The v started well above what would be the nipple line on a man's pecs. The lapels were smashed as flat a flower pressed in a diary, no roll whatsoever. The buttons were a shiny chromium plate, on a dark blue suit. The fabric was a self stripe on stripe, with alternating stripes being a bit glossier than the stripes in between them. Sound hideous yet? The man was chesty and burly like I am, and the lapels at least did not pop or break, but, my god, they were more like a necklace than lapels. His shoes were the best of all. They were mid brown in color, with the long, square toed, clown shoe/ genie shoe trendy look that is so evident everywhere now. His tie had been tied in an attempt to lift it up, and jut it out, but only the front , emerging immediately above the gorge, was arched up and out. The rest of the tie, up to the knot, had collapsed back down flat, and lay dead-looking on his chest.This man screamed Fashion Victim!!!! If K Mart had its own brand of trendy suit, this one would be it. I am a 53 year old stick-in-the-mud, and I'm proud of it. Gawd, give me traditional English tailoring and accessories! And I'm not being critical, gentlemen, just being observant, thank you very much.
Mark F.


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## indylion (Feb 28, 2005)

mark221 said:


> when I was out running errands, and I want to share my impressions with you. With 4 buttons on the Jacket, it had a very high gorge. The v started well above what would be the nipple line on a man's pecs. The lapels were smashed as flat a flower pressed in a diary, no roll whatsoever. The buttons were a shiny chromium plate, on a dark blue suit. The fabric was a self stripe on stripe, with alternating stripes being a bit glossier than the stripes in between them. Sound hideous yet? The man was chesty and burly like I am, and the lapels at least did not pop or break, but, my god, they were more like a necklace than lapels. His shoes were the best of all. They were mid brown in color, with the long, square toed, clown shoe/ genie shoe trendy look that is so evident everywhere now. His tie had been tied in an attempt to lift it up, and jut it out, but only the front , emerging immediately above the gorge, was arched up and out. The rest of the tie, up to the knot, had collapsed back down flat, and lay dead-looking on his chest.This man screamed
> 
> Fashion Victim!!!! If K Mart had its own brand of trendy suit, this one would be it. I am a 53 year old stick-in-the-mud, and I'm proud of it. Gawd, give me traditional English tailoring and accessories! And I'm not being critical, gentlemen, just being observant, thank you very much.
> Mark F.


We may not agree with what he was wearing. But I have to respect him for getting dressed up.


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## Ay329 (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks heavens your location is noted as Atlanta, Georgia

I thought you saw me yesterday here in downtown Los Angeles with my only bespoke 4 button suit (never again will I let my tailor offer suggestions due to my 6'4 size)


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

mark221 said:


> With 4 buttons on the Jacket, it had a very high gorge.... The buttons were a shiny chromium plate... The man was chesty and burly like I am... long, square toed, clown shoe...


Any chance it was Santa Claus on a day off?


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## kkollwitz (Oct 31, 2005)

"I saw a man in a 4 button suit today"

I feel your pain.


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## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Reminds me of some the terrible suits the guys wear on NFL pregame/halftime shows.

Brian


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## s4usea (Jul 10, 2007)

Seriously, was the guy in the NBA?


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

I saw an old advertisement in an antique store from I am guessing around 1908. A clothier was offering four button suits. I suppose while this has been around for some time - it is a button arrangement that flatters very few if any in my opinion.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

vwguy said:


> Reminds me of some the terrible suits the guys wear on NFL pregame/halftime shows.
> 
> Brian


As a group, those guys need help, especially the ex-players and coaches.

They tend to be large, beefy men and would be well-advised to wear somewhat subdued ties with 2-button suits in order to look a tad less wide and deemphasize all that bulk a bit.

Instead, they all seem to wear 3-button (or more?) suits buttoned all the way up, often with garish ties in shades of Pepto-Bismol pink or electric-seaweed green. Yikes.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

An old joke roughly goes like this. Two hikers encounter a huge black bear. One man begins to run. His partner shouts out " Hey! stand still ! People can't outrun bears!" The runner yells back, ' I don't have to outrun the bear, only you!" I have too few opportunities to dress my best. I do know that like our runner, I won't be fashion victim.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

A lawyer I routinely try cases against wears a black four-button suit or sports coat and he always buttons all four buttons, sitting or standing. He is carrying a bit of extra weight, so he looks like a sausage stuffed into that thing. Not a good look.


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

A 4 button suit is far from the worst sartorial sin out there. I'm not making this up, but I actually saw a guy at a wedding in an all white (not the groom) polyester suit with.... wait for it.... NO lapels or collar!  It literally is what your suit would look like if you took a pair of scissors and sheared off the ENTIRE lapel and completely removed the collar. It looked like some deformed fusion of a vest and jacket. I still have nightmares about it.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

You should look at the glass as half full. 

At least he didn't opt for the 5 button suit!


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Tune in to the CBN ( Christian Broadcasting Network) and sit on the floor to avoid falling out of your chair. Makes me appreciate my father's Vestments.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

is four-button worse than one?!


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

https://images.marketworks.com/full....auctionworks.com/hi/7/7234/xs_red_blue_1.jpg

Available now on Ebay.


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## Brian13 (Aug 9, 2006)

anglophile23 said:


> https://images.marketworks.com/full....auctionworks.com/hi/7/7234/xs_red_blue_1.jpg
> 
> Available now on Ebay.


oh lord


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## anglophile23 (Jan 25, 2007)

It's polyester as well.


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## Rossini (Oct 7, 2007)

George Melly might have been proud of that.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

In a world where people wear hoodies and sweat pants to church, or wife beater undershirts as regular shirts, I can live with a guy in a 4-button suit. As Indy Lion said, have to give props for getting dressed up.

Cheers


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

anglophile23 said:


> https://images.marketworks.com/full....auctionworks.com/hi/7/7234/xs_red_blue_1.jpg
> 
> Available now on Ebay.


The Emperor has a new set of clothes...and he is Satan! Perfect outfit for a one way trip to H*ll! (winks)


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## Sir Royston (Nov 10, 2005)

eagle2250 said:


> The Emperor has a new set of clothes...and he is Satan! Perfect outfit for a one way trip to H*ll! (winks)


My my.. that is ..well, i was going to be rude.. but actually.. each to their own!.. but.. I would be quite impressed if anyone would actually wear it!


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

I feel your sartorial pain, but likewise I think the man should at least be commended for wearing a suit. 

While riding the bus home yesterday, I sat next to a young man (under 25, certainly) who was wearing a two piece, three buttoned charcoal suit, with a blue shirt (no tie). Even to my untrained eyes the suit looked cheap (likely 100% polyester), and I would have preferred that he wore a tie; however, even in that state he was better-dressed than about 3/4 of the people his age on the bus. Plus, he was well-groomed. At least he was trying.

But getting back to another matter in this thread - is there really anything *bad* about 4-button suits, as long as they are well-made and worn well (i.e., the wearer has the right body type)?

Although two or my three suits are three-button, I do have a grey four-button suit that I pull out fairly often. The gorge isn't obscenely high (about level with the top of a shirt breast pocket), so a few inches of tie shows below the dimple. I've always thought that it adds length to my body and thus balances out my shoulders, which are a bit on the broad side.

I have tried two-button suits, but I found that I disliked how low the gorge goes (I felt they were gaping), and felt they made me look too boxy; although this might simply be because I tried OTR suits. No doubt a bespoke 2-button suit would be more flattering.

Perhaps I'll submit post a photo of myself wearing my four button, and submit to the group's judgement.

Geoff


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I agree that the four button suit may not have been the best choice, but really, wasn't it nicer than a Tshirt and jeans? I can't be too hard on the guy.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

the four button suit is certainly not 'business' attire.

ive seen a fair few of those on the mod scene and thats where they belong. a statement of counter culture.

HOWEVER , the look can be pulled off with some degree of success if the 'dude' wearing it is suitably skinny and/or athletic.

due to the high meeting point of the lapels (crooked) it closes off too much of the torso and looks boxy and quite shapeless. defo not for the more portly amongst us who need the jacket to give as much as shape to torso as possible.

and fastening all four buttons is UNFORGIVABLE . it must look like a straight jacket !

i wear a lot of three button suits cuz im quite trim with flat abs . id never go for four , it would age me ten years.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

We need to make up some business card size handouts that say:

*Intervention Emergency! *

*For your own best image good 
go immediately to **https://www.AskAndyAboutClothes.com*​


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## Tiberias (Sep 25, 2007)

> Available now on Ebay.


Wait, does this mean that The GQ Store sells its extra inventory on e-Bay? :icon_smile_big:



> While riding the bus home yesterday, I sat next to a young man (under 25, certainly) who was wearing a two piece, three buttoned charcoal suit, with a blue shirt (no tie). Even to my untrained eyes the suit looked cheap (likely 100% polyester), and I would have preferred that he wore a tie; however, even in that state he was better-dressed than about 3/4 of the people his age on the bus. Plus, he was well-groomed. At least he was trying.


Well, I take exception to that. I would have you know that I was, in fact, wearing a tie yesterday, and that the suit is not 100% polyester, it's 100% pure low-grade wool.

On a more serious note, I'm with english_gent, a four-button suit isn't completely outside of the lines of fashion--I've heard it mentioned by reputable sources on men's fashion, although it does seem to be more of a social suit than a business suit. It also seems to work better on thinner men--I don't have a four-button suit, but I do have a four-button leather jacket in roughly the same cut, and I think the form works with my thin (I prefer "svelte" ) profile.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Andy, I was just about to pose that very idea. I've scribbled the website on more than a few cards for men in retail malls. I think their looks are akin to a person lost in the desert who stumbles upon a wellsite only to discover it filled with sand.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Geoff Gander said:


> While riding the bus home yesterday, I sat next to a young man (under 25, certainly) who was wearing a two piece, three buttoned charcoal suit, with a blue shirt (no tie). Even to my untrained eyes the suit looked cheap (likely 100% polyester), and I would have preferred that he wore a tie; however, even in that state he was better-dressed than about 3/4 of the people his age on the bus. Plus, he was well-groomed. At least he was trying.


This is off topic, but I just wanted to commend Geoff for the above paragraph.

As a fairly recent reader of this website, and an even more recent poster - I really connect with the sentiment of statements like this - and appreciate that there are people out here like Geoff (and Sia for example), that are willing to give those of us starting on the road to better dressing - the benefit of the doubt.

I have always felt I had style and did my best to dress nicely, with limited sartorial knowledge and financial means.

Over the last 6 months, I found this site, subscribed to GQ, ordered Esquire's Big Black Book, and purchased my first pair of Allen Edmonds shoes. I have really stepped up my clothes and personal grooming - and feel better, look better and have gained a sense of confidence that is truly exciting.

I cant afford bespoke yet, and don't know if Alden are in the cards anytime soon, but I appreciate all the advice and spirited conversations out here. I just hope people will continue to consider that many more read this site, than post here. And a few encouraging words like what Geoff wrote above really do go a long way towards helping "newbie" feel welcome.

Sorry for the intrusion, and back to the topic at hand.


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## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

"With the seventh selection, the Indiana Pacers select........."


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

mrkleen said:


> This is off topic, but I just wanted to commend Geoff for the above paragraph.
> 
> As a fairly recent reader of this website, and an even more recent poster - I really connect with the sentiment of statements like this - and appreciate that there are people out here like Geoff (and Sia for example), that are willing to give those of us starting on the road to better dressing - the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> ...


 I concur! The effort is worth a lot! We can't all afford the highest end clothing and to take low end items and make them look good is an art!

This website generally tries to explain the basics which should work for all price clothing!


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## nicksull (Sep 1, 2005)

I saw one too. Im scared.....


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

Back around 1895 four button frock coats were normal.


Since then lounge and reefers took over the body coats (frocks and morning coats, except for white tie (full dress).


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## Geoff Gander (Apr 4, 2007)

mrkleen said:


> This is off topic, but I just wanted to commend Geoff for the above paragraph.


Thank you, Mr Kleen (never thought I'd say that - sorry! :icon_smile_big

Although I'm fairly new myself, I lurked on this forum, on and off, for well over a year before joining. I think it's all too easy to be stuck in our own head-spaces when evaluating others' dress sense - for example, you might look at a man and think:

"Look at his shoes! Square-toed, rubber soled monstrosities - likely $19.99 at Wal-Mart - eww! Why can't he buy two pairs of factory second AEs???"

However, we don't know this man's circumstances (unless we ask), nor do we know his tastes, aside from what we can see. Perhaps he really doesn't have enough money, and the thought of spending $300 on two AEs seconds (attainable on EBay, and good value) might give him a heart attack. So, he buys what he can afford - or what he THINKS he can afford. It's all speculation.

When I left university, the thought of spending $250-$300 on a pair of shoes was unthinkable; I had other priorities (rent, etc.), and more importantly I didn't know where to look for deals. So, I bought the best quality I could afford in conservative styles, and took care of them so that they would last me. Now, however, I'm more established, and more importantly I've learned enough from AAAC to make better purchases. However, I remember what it was like before...

The point is, whenever I do get a chance (not often), I ask other guys about what they're wearing, and I've used those windows of opportunity to give them a few points to ponder - especially the virtues of Goodyear-welted leather shoes.

Anyhow, I'll get off the soapbox.

Geoff


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## WhaleinaTeardrop (Oct 20, 2007)

Good Morning Everyone, 

I am a long time lurker, first time poster. I am 6'4.75" and weigh 335 lbs. I'm a former college football wrestler/football player and current powerlifter. I have a 56 inch chest and a 35 inch waist. I have a long torso, very long arms(40/41) and a relatively short inseam, (only 34 inches whereas my wife is only 6'1" with a 36 inch inseam). Because of my long torso, I own a couple of 4 button suits that I've had tailored and are part of my work rotation. While not sartorially perfect, the suits are 100% wool, the patterns are fairly traditional and I nail the details. I get compliments from the VPs(one silver haired gent in particular, who's opinion I respect as he is a VERY natty dresser himself) to the cleaning staff. As long as it's not a pimp/clown suit like that red monstrosity, 4 buttons can be very professional.


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## Bob Loblaw (Mar 9, 2006)

WhaleinaTeardrop said:


> Good Morning Everyone,
> 
> I have a 56 inch chest and a 35 inch waist.


A 21 inch drop!


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## Foutre le feu (Oct 9, 2007)

Yeesh! That red suit makes my stomach a little queasy. Mind you, i'm all for extremes when it comes to suits and when it's done right, but whoever made it got it very wrong.


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## WhaleinaTeardrop (Oct 20, 2007)

Bob Loblaw said:


> A 21 inch drop!


I have a love/hate relationship with my tailor and seamstress! They usually dart my jackets, move the buttons in an inch or so and taper my vests. As most 54 L/XLs come with size 46 slacks and every so often 44s, they take the waist in approx 3 inches, split/notch the waistband at the rear and side seams and sew in buttons for braces. The leg and seat room is usually spot on due to my large thighs and the rather ponderous backside I've developed after (20!)years of heavy squats and deadlifts. Luckily they are literally, directly across the street from my building. :icon_smile_big:


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## outrigger (Aug 12, 2006)

On a longer coat like a safari jacket, 4 button fronts work.


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## gordgekko (Nov 12, 2004)

WhaleinaTeardrop said:


> I am a long time lurker, first time poster. I am 6'4.75" and weigh 335 lbs. I'm a former college football wrestler/football player and current powerlifter. I have a 56 inch chest and a 35 inch waist. I have a long torso, very long arms(40/41) and a relatively short inseam, (only 34 inches whereas my wife is only 6'1" with a 36 inch inseam).


Wow. I'll never complain again about finding too few 48L suits to buy.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

Ay329 said:


> Thanks heavens your location is noted as Atlanta, Georgia
> 
> I thought you saw me yesterday here in downtown Los Angeles with my only bespoke 4 button suit (never again will I let my tailor offer suggestions due to my 6'4 size)


You should change your tailor!


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

*This one is "Dyer"*

From the current website of the "Threadneedleman" tailor (), aka George Dyer of Walworth Road in SE London.

He also has an interesting "take" on sleeve buttons, all 9 of them! 

Don't all rush, gentlemen! :icon_smile_big:


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## Jim In Sunny So Calif (May 13, 2006)

I was going to say that I appreciate folks making an effort to dress even if it is not the style I choose for myself. Perhaps some of them will feel the same way about me.

Then I saw nine, count them nine, buttons and a sleeve - now I am not sure how I feel - a bit mal de mer perhaps.

Cheers, Jim.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

My word! Derek Smalls hasn't age one bit!


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

outrigger said:


> On a longer coat like a safari jacket, 4 button fronts work.


Yes, but safari jackets only work if you are Roger Moore.


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## rocco (Feb 21, 2007)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> From the current website of the "Threadneedleman" tailor (), aka George Dyer of Walworth Road in SE London.
> 
> He also has an interesting "take" on sleeve buttons, all 9 of them!
> 
> Don't all rush, gentlemen! :icon_smile_big:


"This one is Dyer" -

that's harsh. He makes suits for mods and so on, but also straight city suits.


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## Benjamin E. (Mar 2, 2007)

When I was first getting out of the airport in Tel-Aviv, I saw a guy wearing a pair of pants with five pleats!


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Bishop of Briggs said:


> From the current website of the "Threadneedleman" tailor (), aka George Dyer of Walworth Road in SE London.
> 
> Don't all rush, gentlemen! :icon_smile_big:


Well the guy certainly gets high points for creativity, but if you look at his myspace page you can see that his deisgns run the full range from totally wild to looking like dead wringers for Richard James and Ozwald Boateng. To me that's a good sign, a bespoke tailor with unlimited imagination, but knows how to reign it in to give the client what they want.

All the really nice suits are in the slideshows on his myspace page.


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## english_gent (Dec 28, 2006)

dont have a pop at george, he's making the suits the customers ask for !

he's one of the few tailors who will make suits like this and they are a dieing breed.

the suit with nine buttons on the cuff is for a skinhead heh.

i had a laugh about that pic on the phone with him once , i said all his handywork has been undone cuz the skinhead has mutton chop sideburns and as such you ignore the suit as your attention is firmly drawn upwards to the guy's noggin. :icon_smile_big:

*if the skinhead is reading this , i mean no offense , plz dont kick my head in *


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## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

english_gent said:


> he's one of the few tailors who will make suits like this and they are a dieing breed.


Well there are Saville Row tailors out there who need the business enough to honor any crazy request. This is my all-time favorite:

*"Pete Doherty... **ordered two (bespoke) suits-at a cost of roughly $3,500 each-that were to be cut several sizes too small. "I don't want them to look like they've been made for me," he insisted."*

https://men.style.com/details/features/full?id=content_3972&pageNum=1


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

omairp said:


> Well there are Saville Row tailors out there who need the business enough to honor any crazy request. This is my all-time favorite:
> 
> *"Pete Doherty... **ordered two (bespoke) suits-at a cost of roughly $3,500 each-that were to be cut several sizes too small. "I don't want them to look like they've been made for me," he insisted."*
> 
> https://men.style.com/details/features/full?id=content_3972&pageNum=1


A classic example of "more money than sense" or "style over substance".

BTW, I was not having a go at Mr Dyer, only his client who ordered the 9 buttons on the sleeve. I woulld not wish to offend the tailor or his elegant client, i.e. the boxing champ!


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

There is a fairly well-known fraternity brother on campus at my university (he belongs to Sigma Chi) who wears a red suit, white shirt and red tie all the time. It's hideous and really shows the lack of class in fraternities these days.

Though I suppose a true traditionalist (chuckles) would argue suits with four and five buttons are proper, as they were the custom at the turn of the 20th Century.


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

omairp said:


> A 4 button suit is far from the worst sartorial sin out there. I'm not making this up, but I actually saw a guy at a wedding in an all white (not the groom) polyester suit with.... wait for it.... NO lapels or collar!  It literally is what your suit would look like if you took a pair of scissors and sheared off the ENTIRE lapel and completely removed the collar. It looked like some deformed fusion of a vest and jacket. I still have nightmares about it.


This is identical to a jacket (except for the polyester, I'm sure) worn by our ultimate style icon, Cary Grant, in _Philadelphia Story_, so how bad can it be?


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

omairp said:


> Well the guy certainly gets high points for creativity, but if you look at his myspace page you can see that his deisgns run the full range from totally wild to looking like dead wringers for Richard James and Ozwald Boateng. To me that's a good sign, a bespoke tailor with unlimited imagination, but knows how to reign it in to give the client what they want.
> 
> All the really nice suits are in the slideshows on his myspace page.


This gentleman pictured is David Haye who is the new WBA and WBC Cruiserweight boxing champion.










From https://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/7086568.stm. Mr Haye has excellent sartorial taste and I wish him every success when he steps up to the heavyweight division. See https://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/7089401.stm. George Dyer will be pleased too as he will probably need to order new suits. :icon_smile:


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## Ace_Face (May 19, 2007)

hockeyinsider said:


> There is a fairly well-known fraternity brother on campus at my university (he belongs to Sigma Chi) who wears a red suit, white shirt and red tie all the time.


I'd say wearing a red suit and tie with white shirt would make you well-known anywhere. But his insistence on wearing it "all the time" makes me think he must have lost a bet at some point!


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I saw a law student in a 4 button suit last week...I was confused since he didn't seem like a flashy guy. I wonder what salesman tricked him.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

Total, or per side?


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

I believe the NBA style multiple button suit look is a descendent of the zoot suit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_suit

This style has nothing to do with the 4 button lounge and frock coats of the past.


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