# HOAs: Good, Bad, or Indifferent



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Here is a thread to discuss Home Owner Agreements. Please give us your views on them.


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## jbmcb (Sep 7, 2005)

*Nope!*

HOA's are partially responsible for ruining modern housing. It's not enough that modern, cookie cutter houses all look exactly the same, you must maintain the appearance of conformity throughout the maintenance of your home.

The best way to get your neighbors in line, is to keep your own property in great shape, and maybe have a friendly conversation with them. It works like a charm on our street.


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## queueball (Jun 16, 2005)

Where I live in Atlanta I consider them a necessary evil. I was on the HOA committee in my previous neighborhood and saw it work positively and negatively. On the positive side it was easy to ensure homeowners mowed their lawns, kept their house painted, etc. It was also fairly easy to convince one homeowner that he couldn't park his boat on his side yard (thankfully), and another that he couldn't paint his house using a Miami Dolphins theme (light blue and orange - he was a real fan). The downsides are obvious because HOA rules intentionally cause "conformance opression" so that each house in the neighborhood looks similar. 

We tried diligently to loosen the rules in some areas but the requirements for changing them were difficult to manage. In some of our homeowner meetings we literally had grown men screaming at each other regarding the acceptable length of grass and how many weeds was too many.

Someone said there is no way to legislate good taste. He/she was right.


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## Fogey (Aug 27, 2005)

House-owner agreements. Using 'home' as a synonym for 'house' is more middle-class bastardisation of the language.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Fogey said:


> House-owner agreements. Using 'home' as a synonym for 'house' is more middle-class bastardisation of the language.


Well, I guess this is what you must expect old chap when you are the only landed member of the aristocracy here. Please forgive our gauche bastardisation of the language in this thread and start your own thread on how the uppity middle-class is ruining the Empire and its language, m'kay?

Any comments you might have on the actual topic would be welcomed, but I do suppose the ancestral lands lack such things.

Cheers


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## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

For the most part, I disagree with them, although I live in an older city neighborhood, and there aren't any deed restrictions as such.

In many instances the agreements bring out the "Lawn Nazis". Restrictions on flying flags; Hallowe'en, Christmas, and other holiday decorations; paint and/or trim colors; and other aesthetic choices by homeowners, are but a few examples of their over-exuberance. The most obvious disagreements make the news, while many others result in the homeowner(s) coercedinto compliance with legal threats.

However, occasionally I've seen homeowners carry the day. A lady in the neighborhood adjacent to ours, wanted a purple garage. This was not a gaudy color she selected. It was quite stately, and looked beautiful behind her brick and stone home (constructed in the 1920's). The neighborhood association went ballistic! They filed a complaint with the city housing department. The director came to her home, took one look at the color, and announced that he backed the homeowner 100%. His message to the neighborhood association was to concentrate on real blight, "and leave taste to one who obviously has it" (his quote).


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I was always leery of them. Then I moved into a development with one. I read the covenants carefully. They were few and all seemed pretty reasonable. They mainly have to do with the available palatte one can use to paint their house, keeping the street clear of backyard mechanics, non-running cars, and motorhomes (a real issue in southern Arizona), keeping your landscaping up, and not annoying your neighbors with excessive noise and visual clutter, i.e. Dish TV, garbage bins. One must go before an architectural committee with any construction (all homes are Santa Fe style, a very nice style, and the goal is to keep the development in that style). We pay all of $140 per year.

Now it is a nice development, just 100 homes, lots vary from 1.5-3 acres, it is not "cookie cutter" but all homes are Santa Fe style. I am sure I will butt my head against the Association at some point, but four years and so far so good. I am planning a little construction next year, we shall see about the committee, but I do not foresee a problem. Our development has also seen incredible property value increases since I bought and the neighborhood is known for fast sales. Even in the current market down turn, the last house listed sold the day it listed. Last summer houses were going first day of listing and tens of thousands over initial asking price! I think the level of order maintained by the covenants helps with that.

I have read the horror stories and the deck is very stacked to the Association when conflict arises. It also goes against the particularly US notion of "I paid good money for this, I should be able to do ANYTHING I want". Well, maybe if no one was affected by your actions as you were in such an isolated spot, but when one lives in a community, one does have some responsibility to be a good community member IMO. I know this will be argued with, but it is how I feel. I do not play my bagpipes past 7pm in my house and only outside in the middle of the day on weekends. I do not expect the neighbors to have loud music playing either, leave their garbage bins out for the javelinas to knock over and root through or set up skate board ramps (I have driven through many neighborhoods with those, sorry, but I could not be paid to live next to one of those!).

Long post, sorry.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

It all depends on how they are structure and who lives there. They can be utter heck when you have young people, single middle aged people, and retirees all living in the same condo/townhome area since they all have different goals. The younger ones want to improve and build equity, the older ones are on a fixed budget and don't care if things are a little shabby.

The libertarian in me doesn't like the concept of property tax, much less the idea that soccer moms and busy-bodies will be on a powertrip with the HOA over what kind of vehicle I can park on my own property and where I have to park it. Even worse, they are often just a majority vote in a secret meeting away from rewriting the rules. Then it goes from no trucks over a certain weight or with commercial plates, to no cars or SUVs over a certain length, and then no boats, no jet skis, no motorcycles, etc.

And the best part is you get to pay extra for more beaurocratic red tape in your life!

I wouldn't mind joining one if it came with javelinas though...and a permit to hunt them


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## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

We live in a neighborhood with HOA restrictions and they aren't draconian at all.

They restrict people from building McMansions or second stories overlooking neighbors' gardens and blocking their light, for one thing. Worth it just for that. Nearly all of the houses are brick, so there are really few funky paint opportunities anyway. Judging from the holiday decorations already up, nobody really cares about temporary bad taste.

There is something about the towns nearby which compels people to park cars on the lawn, so we didn't want to deal with that. Hey, bro... this is why you have a 40-ft driveway. If that's not large enough, you have too many cars, capisce? 

The rates are at about $300 per year, but that includes use of a clubhouse, boat dock, tennis courts and pools, which is a fair deal. The only anger people have expressed is an unwillingness to pay more for a year or two to refurbish the club.


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Around here we have Historic District Commissions and incredibly vigilant Planning and Zoning Commissions and Village Districts and Architectural Review Boards and Zoning Enforcement Officers and Inland Wetland Commissions and...

True story: In the mid 1970s my friend Rob's mother Louise owned a house in the historic district in Litchfield, where they wrote the mother of all these codes. She wanted to paint her little house yellow. Not a vibrant yellow, just yellow.

The commissioners said no. Any paint jobs had to conform to the official style, which was modeled on the style of 1740. That is not a typo. 1740 A.D.

Louise said, in effect, "Oh, yeah?" and did some research. The next month she showed up at the commission's meeting, massive amounts of documentation in hand, and demonstrated that not only did they not have yellow paint in 1740, they didn't have paint at all, just a sort of tannin-based stain for weatherproofing. The color was what was politely referred to as "monkey-poop brown" by Louise, who went on to say that if the commission did not allow her to paint her house a quiet shade of yellow she would initiate action to force _all_ the households in the historic district to stain their dwellings in this historically accurate brown.

The commission dropped it, showing a level of sense that sadly doesn't exist today.


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## Tom Bell-Drier (Mar 1, 2006)

at our house in Florida , we are subject to HOA rules ,personally I think it is a good thing,the appearance of the neigbourhood is maintained and providing you stick to the rules which you are made aware of at time of purchase you are left alone.

My wifes parents however used to have a condo in the same town and their lifes were made a night mare by the condo association with many bizzare and petty rules enforced by a manager employed by the condo association. who lived and worked in the building.

still look on the bright side at least we don`t live in Celebration the Disney housing development in Florida where not only are the houses and grounds micro managed but the residents lives also.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I serve on my HOA board and I think they are a good thing since they have the power to enforce a high standard or proper maintenance of lawns and landscape in general and make sure the community is being managed right. I do see where there is a significant variation of HOA board quality. We have a great company that manages and works with several hundred Boards to train them on Ga state law and best practices in terms of setting rules and maintaining a good budget. I think if an HOA board follows these best practices then residents have their expectations set and act accordingly. It's like a little democracy in our neighborhood where residents have an equal say in what lawn guidelines or other rules are put into effect. We have tried to be super responsive to any concerns in the community but that is readily done in a place where there are just 53 homes. When you get to large communities like say 400-500 homes then there are many complex issues.

The extreme is in Florida...I have been part of condo associations where the Board was retirees and they spent way too much time inventing annoying restrictive rules.


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## pendennis (Oct 6, 2005)

Since people sign deed restrictions and covenants in order to live in a particular sub-division or development, then I guess they get what they want. That's the price people pay for premium addresses. I agree that setting a '75 Gremlin on blocks does take things too far. However, if one doesn't want the yard grass to look like Astro Turf, then let the lawn look like a yard, inhabited by people and not the local lawn bowling society.


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

Artisan Fan said:


> The extreme is in Florida...I have been part of condo associations where the Board was retirees and they spent way too much time inventing annoying restrictive rules.


Unfortunately that is true in retirement Az also. My home is subject to 3 different HOAs. I sit on the board on two and am a member of the advisory committee of the 3rd. Unfortunately we have a bunch of over 65 white male retired folks that all think alike. And that doesn't do a thing for cultural diversity. In fact many of our rules seem patently anti child.

Unfortunately as someone has already said, it is near impossible (67% majority necessary) to change any of the rules.

Perry


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## hopkins_student (Jun 25, 2004)

pkincy said:


> In fact many of our rules seem patently anti child.


Care to elaborate?


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

We live in a very very affluent community with quite large houses on large lots. And we can not park on the street, or in the driveway.

So if you are empty nesters and have as many cars as fit in the garage, than noone can visit as they can not park anwhere. And it is about 5 miles in any direction to get out of these rules.

Also how many people do you know with multiple teenagers that can park all their cars in the garage at the same time?

How many people do you know with teenagers that don't have other teenagers over visiting all the time?

Here none of the above is possible.

We live in an old folks home that is not marketed as such.

Perry


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## hopkins_student (Jun 25, 2004)

pkincy said:


> We live in a very very affluent community with quite large houses on large lots. And we can not park on the street, or in the driveway.
> 
> So if you are empty nesters and have as many cars as fit in the garage, than noone can visit as they can not park anwhere. And it is about 5 miles in any direction to get out of these rules.
> 
> ...


That is truly disturbing. How do you deal with this situation? Do you have a five car garage so that you can have more than one set of friends visit at a time?


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

I suppose you pay your fine or simply don't allow the kids to come and visit.

Which sometimes I think is the reasoning behind the rules.

Perry


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

Clearly a well-orchestrated campaign of sabotage is in order:

Begin slowly, with a junker car towed out and deposited in front of the HOA board members' homes in the dead of night. Bonus points for a van with a spare tire cover with the feet and legend "If this van's a rockin', don't come knockin' "

Repeat, sparingly, every two or three months for one year. This sets the stage for the Terror to follow.

I will think of more, but remember, it must be a carefully calibrated attack. Each outrage must be a little more ghastly than the last, and the frequency slowly increased, until the great moment comes when, armed with your photographs and other documentation, the coup de HOA board is ripe for competion.

"I put it to you, Mr. Snodgrass, that on no less than four occasions in the last fiscal year you and Mr. Prong have had abandoned cars parked on or in front of your property. You deny all knowledge, yet here is the proof. It is not for this board to regulate the sort of persons with whom you have dealings - not yet, anyway - but if you insist on being on intimate terms with such...persons kindly confine your activities to the pool halls and video arcades you undoubtedly frequent on the sly."


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Now do not go tossing out the baby with the bathwater! 

This parking situation might be a bit too restrictive but I also submit that no one would move into such a neighborhood and expect to have a project car up on blocks, repleat with oil slick, on the street in front of a neighbor. Without some control, this will certainly happen. Ditto hugh motorhomes with extension cords running out of the host house, across the frontyard/sidewalk, to power the ugly behemoth for its six week Holiday stay. That is something about Arizona, you have to expect huge motorhomes will be parked for extended periods of time in front of people's dwellings without deed restrictions.

We had a complaint here about the HOA being "anti-child". The nature of the logic was that since backyard trampolines are expressly banned (I am sorry, but can you say "white trash"?) and also skate board ramps and freestanding basketball nets are banned, the HOA is anti-child. Of course, we have a beautiful park in the middle of our 100 home development that includes two basketball courts, a skate board area, covered picnic area, and other amenities.

Your covenants sound a little restrictive Perry, but I think ours are not too onerous. Of course, I have not bumped into a problem yet and might feel different this time next year after I go before the architectural board for the project I plan on my house. However, my plan is quite reasonable and will maintain the Santa Fe character, so I am not expecting problems. That and I hate the HOA President over for drinks one night and "happened" to mention the project and outlined it to him and he thought it would be great


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I would never, ever live in a place that had restrictive "Homeowner Agreements" beyond the normal zoning ordnances and public law. I find them really creepy and fascistic. For instance, in the senior community where my father-in-law lives he is forbidden to put out Xmas decorations lest other homeowners be offended.

I have always slightly bemused at friends of mine who are fanatically right-wing, individualistic loathers of "big government" who then have proudly and gleefully moved into places that had extremely restrictive HOAs, far beyond the normal restrictions of public law. Never quite made sense to me!


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## Lushington (Jul 12, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> I have always slightly bemused at friends of mine who are fanatically right-wing, individualistic loathers of "big government" who then have proudly and gleefully moved into places that had extremely restrictive HOAs, far beyond the normal restrictions of public law. Never quite made sense to me!


Such fellows are also generally indifferent to the irony that, while espousing a doctrine of near-anarchy, many of them spend the bulk of their adult lives laboring for authoritarian entities.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> The nature of the logic was that since backyard trampolines are expressly banned (I am sorry, but can you say "white trash"?)


I was in the best neighborhood on the lake a few months ago and asked my host what was that over in my neighbors yard. The neighbor is a professional sports agent, married to a former professional gymnist. Anyway, to skirt the HOA rules, they dug a hole and buried the trampoline, so that it was flush with the surface of the yard


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

crazyquik said:


> I was in the best neighborhood on the lake a few months ago and asked my host what was that over in my neighbors yard. The neighbor is a professional sports agent, married to a former professional gymnist. Anyway, to skirt the HOA rules, they dug a hole and buried the trampoline, so that it was flush with the surface of the yard


I was waiting for a reply along this line. Now I am not saying these people in particular are white trash, especially given the lady's past profession, but remember, money does not buy class. Just spin the televsion dial to witness any number of horrors, such as _The Real Wives of Orange County_. IMO, more reason an HOA that is very mild in nature is needed.

It seems apparent that most people here are binary on the issue and I admit at one time I was. Then I slapped down a large sum of money after reading a very reasonable HOA and suddenly I feel different. I am still leery but I am glad of all the things I listed above, as many of those instances have happened in my neighborhood and I am glad we have a black and white set of rules to follow. Frankly, I do not think it unreasonable skate board ramps can not be constructed in front of people's houses nor huge motor homes parked there for weeks at a time with Aunt Erma from PA living in it. I know some here do not see a problem with that and no one would force you to buy in a development where you or your child could not do skate board ramp stunts in front of your upscale house. I still would not move into one of those Stepford type HOA developments, but one that encourages basic decorum is fine with me.

As always, each to his own. I have never promulgated anarchy as I fully believe man's life would be brutish and short without a society. Society, by definition, imposes limits on one's behavior. An HOA is just another facet of society and community living. Pick one that fits you or live where this is none. Just do not complain when Tony Hawk parks his huge motorhome in front of your neighbor's house, builds a big, noisy wooden ramp and starts practicing his moves while people watch bouncing on a trampoline 

Regards


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## Hedonist (Nov 5, 2006)

Wayfarer,

In an ideal world, we don’t need HOA, but as we don’t live in an ideal world, it is an evil necessity. Our Swiss form of HOA is actually codified (legally binding), I hate to admit it, but it works. My only advice to you is that when you buy into any development that has HOA, seek an attorney’s advice (that you value) and have each point explained to you from a legal point of view. I know some people are leery of attorneys, but there are some really good ones around. 

Does anyone know how many docks you can put on a 100 feet of water frontage? We have a very ambitious neighbor with TWO docks currently. At this rate, I’m not sure how many he is going to have. As we are only there for the summer briefly, it’s not bothering me (yet).


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> And we can not park on the street, or in the driveway.


Not even in the driveway? That's pretty tough.


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## 16412 (Apr 1, 2005)

One town around here requires that those who own or live on main street (not the real Main St.) keep the property neat and no work on Sunday to keep it neat.

In fact, most stores are closed on Sunday.


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> I would never, ever live in a place that had restrictive "Homeowner Agreements" beyond the normal zoning ordnances and public law. I find them really creepy and fascistic. For instance, in the senior community where my father-in-law lives he is forbidden to put out Xmas decorations lest other homeowners be offended.
> 
> I have always slightly bemused at friends of mine who are fanatically right-wing, individualistic loathers of "big government" who then have proudly and gleefully moved into places that had extremely restrictive HOAs, far beyond the normal restrictions of public law. Never quite made sense to me!


I agree. I also would never live in such a place. We live in a neighborhood of 100+ year old homes. All of my neighbors keep a neat appearance to their house and yard, and we have not had any problems with "eyesores" in the neighborhood. Most people put up Christmas lights, but they are usually tasteful displays of wreaths, lighted garland and candles in all of the windows. 
We are allowed to park in our driveways and on the street. I have never heard anyone complain about cars on the street. In fact, my neighbor stopped by one evening and asked if I would mind if his friends parked in front of our house. I told him they could also use our driveway, as we were staying home for the evening. I have another neighbor who is fixing a car in his drive. He is doing a full restoration on a VW Westfalia. No one minds that his van is always in the drive, most of us stop by to see how it is progressing. He also has a 240 Volvo that he has restored.

I think the problem is that too many people are so concerned about themselves, that they haven't taken the time to actually meet their neighbors. If they did, they may find that they have alot in common. If a dispute arises, it usually takes nothing more than a conversation with the neighbor to resolve things; no need for some HOA sending fines their way.

I've also noticed that the areas in which these HOAs exist are often neighborhoods of cookie cutter McMansions. The two must go hand in hand.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

It is interesting to see the views on this topic and the issues people tie into HOAs. Oddly enough, I am the only person so far to even remotely defend the HOAs. Just as an aside, my development is not a McMansion one, it is all custom built homes, the only caveat is they were all built in the Santa Fe style, no more than 1.5 stories, and the colour pallette is limited (no bright purple, sorry Prince).


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## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*Balance*

In reading these posts, I could not help noticing that some people live with HOA restrcitions that make prison seem a relaxed and permissive place. Others, such as muyself, have HOA restrictions that are really not too bad, and are mainly in place in order to protect property values. We have certain restrictions on the type of fencing we can use in our yards, are not allowed to have gardens that block line of sight at cross streets, cannot advertise businesses run from our homes, and generally have a way of resolving differences between neighbors that does not require a court proceeding. We are allowed to have amazingly tacky Christmas lights displays, but we are not alowed to paint our homes amazingly tacky colors.

As an aside, I used to work in real estate, and it is surprising the covenants you can sometimes find. In Florida, there are still covenants that restrict ownership of property to blacks or whites only. Of course those restrictions haven't been enforced in 50 years, but they are still there, because the neighborhood associations are no longer active enough to remove them, or to even enforce the others that would pass legal muster. Again, from my ealrier career, it is in the newer neighborhoods that HOA restrcitions are most enforced. Gradually, people find other things to do with their time, and the HOA simply seems to fade away.


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