# Why is the Huntsman house cut not a more popular style?



## lalaland (Apr 10, 2012)

Perhaps I'm in the minority - but I really like the Huntsman house cut - it's very clean, sleek, precise, minimal, masculine. And the single button seems just enough. But this look doesn't seem very popular - is there some obvious reason why? Or perhaps it is a common look in the U.K. and on the Continent - but not here in the States?


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## mrp (Mar 1, 2011)

Some in the "sack" group feel the "hour glass" is feminine, in reality I haven't seen any men with hips as wide (or wider) than their shoulders so I don't see the feminine side, might just be lack of waist for some. I like the look myself.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

mrp said:


> Some in the "sack" group feel the "hour glass" is feminine, in reality I haven't seen any men with hips as wide (or wider) than their shoulders so I don't see the feminine side, might just be lack of waist for some. I like the look myself.


As do i. My only issue is the single button. I'd wear it on the Dinner Jacket but not the suit. All my suits and jackets are London cut as I feel it suits my physique best.


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## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

They're beautiful suits, to be sure, at least in terms of the unique fabrics and the construction. The reason that particular cut isn't all that common on the street even at lower price points is the single button. One button suits are really more for social wear than business wear.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

The simple reason is that the Huntsman cut has to be precise to work. It is not readily amenable to OTR wear. 99% of men wear OTR. And probably 75% of those who wear something custom simply get the same styles they could get OTR.

PMRuby: bah! What's a one-button jacket but a 2b with the lower button removed? I have a 1B suit and wear it for business regularly to no apparent ill-effect. Why does an extraneous button that is never fastened render an otherwise inappropriate jacket suddenly suitable for work?


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## PMRuby (Jan 13, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> The simple reason is that the Huntsman cut has to be precise to work. It is not readily amenable to OTR wear. 99% of men wear OTR. And probably 75% of those who wear something custom simply get the same styles they could get OTR.
> 
> PMRuby: bah! What's a one-button jacket but a 2b with the lower button removed? I have a 1B suit and wear it for business regularly to no apparent ill-effect. Why does an extraneous button that is never fastened render an otherwise inappropriate jacket suddenly suitable for work?


Well, it doesn't really matter but for the way practically all OTR one-button suits are cut. They look like they should be worn to the club; not at work. They're typically very skinny fitting (something I abhor when I see it in a business setting) and have a very low gorge, exposing a longer portion of the chest - there's nothing inherently wrong with the latter; it just is not what we're accustomed to seeing in a business setting, so it may look out of place. So, it's not the one button suit that's the problem - it's the way the majority of one button suits seem to be cut that makes them more for social wear than for the business environment.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

OK, but that's neither inherent in 1B's nor in Huntsman jackets (although those are cut a bit close, they do not approach the "skinny" fit you're talking about).


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Agree its a really nice cut for a suit and I also like the single button.

But if you tried to mass produce that look it would probably just hang off you like an old sack, particularly at the waist. Like CuffDaddy says, it needs to be well tailored/fitted to pull it off. 

When my ship comes in I'd really like a Huntsman suit....sigh!


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm in the group that feels the Huntsman cut is feminine. Of course, if I myself were slimmer I might change my mind but trying to get that shape on my large size is just asking for trouble.


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## VictorRomeo (Sep 11, 2009)

Oldsarge said:


> I'm in the group that feels the Huntsman cut is feminine. Of course, if I myself were slimmer I might change my mind but trying to get that shape on my large size is just asking for trouble.


That's quite the contradiction there Oldsarge!


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

I dislke the cut very much, but as done by Huntsman, it's more an issue of preference, as they do it beautifully. Though I still find it exagerated and overly dramatic. It shouts, "Look at me!" 

The greater problem is that this cut now serves as the template for most modern fashion, 1-button excepted. Which is why I would expect it to be appealing to the eye of the young. As CD indicated, absent precise cutting and the perfect fit of bespoke, this cut falls apart on most normal bodies when purchased as RTW.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

That's actually the first I've seen such an example of Huntsman.

I have a LONG (8 months now) overdue bespoke suit that the tailor asked me about doing as a one button, and I obliged. I'm sure you'll see a post about it shortly, as I spent months backing this guy up, and now he won't even return a phone call. 

That Huntsman is beautiful, and I love the 1B jacket with a DB vest; it would most likely be my first stop if ever on the Row.


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## Pechorin77 (Dec 21, 2006)

I've noticed the same sentiment around. I attribute it mostly to fact that the strong shoulders turn most men off - or at least the men who blog and chime in. They're more interested in soft or natural shoulder lines and therefore Huntsman isn't on their radar. I happen to love it.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

There is a disconnect between the squareness of the shoulders and the nipped in, wasp waist. I also dislike how much the quarters flair. Again, if I were quite slender I might not find it so distressing but my shoulders don't need any emphasis and wasping my waist is a joke. "Prissy" is the word that comes to mind.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Flanderian said:


> I dislke the cut very much, but as done by Huntsman, it's more an issue of preference, as they do it beautifully. Though I still find it exagerated and overly dramatic. It shouts, "Look at me!"
> 
> The greater problem is that this cut now serves as the template for most modern fashion, 1-button excepted. Which is why I would expect it to be appealing to the eye of the young. As CD indicated, absent precise cutting and the perfect fit of bespoke, this cut falls apart on most normal bodies when purchased as RTW.


I haven't seen any modern fashion that resembles anything from Huntsman. Mostly since Huntsman cuts their jackets on the longer side. Huntsman fits the waist to person and never make it so tight that it pulls. If sold RTW they would of course not have so much waist suppression. They also don't make low rise trousers. The closest offering in America is probably Ralph Lauren Purple Label, though their suits don't have such a strong shoulder. Though I prefer a more natural shoulder (though still structured) this shoulder doesn't bother me.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Matt S said:


> I haven't seen any modern fashion that resembles anything from Huntsman. Mostly since Huntsman cuts their jackets on the longer side. Huntsman fits the waist to person and never make it so tight that it pulls. If sold RTW they would of course not have so much waist suppression. They also don't make low rise trousers. The closest offering in America is probably Ralph Lauren Purple Label, though their suits don't have such a strong shoulder. Though I prefer a more natural shoulder (though still structured) this shoulder doesn't bother me.


I din't suggest Huntsman would make a poorly made jacket or send anyone out in one that didn't fit. But as to contemporary style being consistent with their house style -

Huntsman -









Tom Ford -









Differences? Of course, one is a $7,000 or $8,000 bespoke evening suit and the other isn't. But the cut is similar. And that was my point.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

I forgot about Ford, probably because he designs are more old than new. I wish more "fashion" was like this. But truth is that Tom Ford isn't representative of the fashion world and very little else out there in fashion looks like his designs, though I hope he has an influence in bringing back pleated trousers with a reasonable rise. As of yet he hasn't really. By far the dominating look in fashion is the shrunken look. Ford's suit is a bit too tight but not nearly as small as what fashion is trying to push. Tom Ford's shoulders aren't built up the same way as Huntsman (I prefer Ford's, actually). The price is about the same.


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## lalaland (Apr 10, 2012)

I do love Tom Ford's suits, sigh. Wish I had the coin. Perhaps I should try getting Richard Lim to do a Ford styled suit.


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## SocraticLove (May 15, 2012)

I'm not sure about the charge of femininity. The X-shape is held by many to be the most desirable shape for men - it's the look that fitness models and bodybuilders aim for. It's a standard of beauty; probably just one, though, and not THE standard. 

I understand the hourglass quality lends itself to a feminine interpretation but an hourglass is also something of an X and again, the X-shape is quite nice if you have the body for it but 99% of men do not. We are talking about wide and broad shoulders, tapering down to a slim waist, and branching out into a pair of legs with thick quadriceps and hamstrings and then tapering down again into a pair of thick calves. 

That's just my (probably untutored) opinion on things; I'm not an expert (yet) in sartorial matters but I know about male beauty. :icon_smile_big:


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

I find the Huntsman cut too sharply structured, although I agree with Flanderian that it would be executed splendidly.

There is, I think, a happy compromise(*) between the American sack and the Huntsman cut. The soft drape of Anderson Sheppard would very much be my preferred style. As a middle road between the two (AS and Huntsman), Henry Poole provides a good example. (All credit to Will for educating me over a number of years through his excellent blog of the distinctions (try searching it for "house style" and "soft drape").)

https://www.henrypoole.com/?id=21&pid=3

https://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/

(*) For an Englishman at least who finds "trad" appealing, but who could not quite adopt all of its parameters on this side of the Atlantic.


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## TheGreatTwizz (Oct 27, 2010)

Flanderian said:


> I don't I suggested Huntsman would make a poorly made jacket or send anyone out in one that didn't fit. But as to contemporary style being consistent with their house style -
> 
> Huntsman -
> 
> ...


I find TF's DJ to be buttoned too low, and he always has his jackets too tight. Aside from the terrible break on the trousers....


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Matt S said:


> By far the dominating look in fashion is the shrunken look.


Yes, that's what I've seen pictured recently, but I don't think much of it has yet found it's way into mainstream RTW retail, which when I last looked tended more closely to Tom Ford than Thom Browne. Though much more poorly done, a JAB Signature Gold would have a cut not too dissimilar to Tom Ford's.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Balfour said:


> I find the Huntsman cut too sharply structured, although I agree with Flanderian that it would be executed splendidly.
> 
> There is, I think, a happy compromise(*) between the American sack and the Huntsman cut. The soft drape of Anderson Sheppard would very much be my preferred style. As a middle road between the two (AS and Huntsman), Henry Poole provides a good example. (All credit to Will for educating me over a number of years through his excellent blog of the distinctions (try searching it for "house style" and "soft drape").)
> 
> ...


I also find Poole and AS's cuts more graceful than Huntsman and prefer them. Though I find the button stance and gorge in each a bit too high for my taste. A member of The London Lounge had posted this photo of a sports jacket he had commissioned, and I like the cut better than anything else I've seen from contemporary tailoring, either bespoke or RTW -


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## Dempsy444 (Dec 3, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> I dislke the cut very much, but as done by Huntsman, it's more an issue of preference, as they do it beautifully. Though I still find it exagerated and overly dramatic. It shouts, "Look at me!"
> 
> The greater problem is that this cut now serves as the template for most modern fashion, 1-button excepted. Which is why I would expect it to be appealing to the eye of the young. As CD indicated, absent precise cutting and the perfect fit of bespoke, this cut falls apart on most normal bodies when purchased as RTW.


I commissioned a Huntsman 2 pc suit right around the same time I commissioned a single button suit from Chris Despos in Chicago. It was interesting to see how the two suits compared. Ironically, the Huntsman suit came back imbalanced despite the one button being its specialty. This aside, the Huntsman lines were clean and sharp. The overall suit had a strong aggressive stance, but a bit of a "boxy fitted" look. Perhaps a bit too linear. No doubt it was a strong suit. Nothing about it was feminine. In fact, it screamed alpha. The house uses such substantial canvass and interlining that it is heavy and feels like you are slipping on armor. The highly fitted cut adds to this feeling. But, the overall silhouette lacks grace and finesse. It's sort of like an Aaron Sorkin Dialogue: enjoyable but a bit over done.

By comparison, the Despos suit produced a lot of the strong features that Huntsman is known for, such as a clean, strong shoulder, a perfectly fitted back, but Chris did it using much lighter material, and putting more finesse and grace in the silhouette. The result was a suit that hung a bit more naturally, drew less attention to itself, but fit so impeccably and was shaped so gracefully it highlighted the owner in the most flattering way. It was also so comfortable to wear, you quickly forgot you were wearing it. The shoulder is fitted three dimensionally so that it never breaks when I move. It's quite remarkable actually. The front quarters were so perfectly balanced they closed precisely on their own when I slipped the jacket on.

I guess I bring this story up because I think it is important to remember in bespoke you hire a tailor rather than purchase a house look. One is better served finding a master tailor who you can trust to do his/her best work on you, who is more focused on making a suit that flatters you most. House styles are fun to look at but they are secondary in bespoke.


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## Mute (Apr 3, 2005)

Maybe it's only because we live in the U.S. (and even more so here in L.A. where casual seems to be king) and that is very much a non-American look. I personally love Huntsman silhouette. However, I'm the wrong person to reply as I hate the sack suit look.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Dempsy444 said:


> I guess I bring this story up because I think it is important to remember in bespoke you hire a tailor rather than purchase a house look. One is better served finding a master tailor who you can trust to do his/her best work on you, who is more focused on making a suit that flatters you most. House styles are fun to look at but they are secondary in bespoke.


It seems that Savile Row is what defines bespoke, yet the most well-known houses on the Row only do a house style. You go to Huntsman or Anderson & Sheppard for their house style. Bespoke doesn't mean the tailor can make any style for you. Some tailors are more versatile than others, but they typically have one style they do best or prefer to do.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Dempsy444 said:


> I commissioned a Huntsman 2 pc suit right around the same time I commissioned a single button suit from Chris Despos in Chicago. It was interesting to see how the two suits compared. Ironically, the Huntsman suit came back imbalanced despite the one button being its specialty. This aside, the Huntsman lines were clean and sharp. The overall suit had a strong aggressive stance, but a bit of a "boxy fitted" look. Perhaps a bit too linear. No doubt it was a strong suit. Nothing about it was feminine. In fact, it screamed alpha. The house uses such substantial canvass and interlining that it is heavy and feels like you are slipping on armor. The highly fitted cut adds to this feeling. But, the overall silhouette lacks grace and finesse. It's sort of like an Aaron Sorkin Dialogue: enjoyable but a bit over done.
> 
> By comparison, the Despos suit produced a lot of the strong features that Huntsman is known for, such as a clean, strong shoulder, a perfectly fitted back, but Chris did it using much lighter material, and putting more finesse and grace in the silhouette. The result was a suit that hung a bit more naturally, drew less attention to itself, but fit so impeccably and was shaped so gracefully it highlighted the owner in the most flattering way. It was also so comfortable to wear, you quickly forgot you were wearing it. The shoulder is fitted three dimensionally so that it never breaks when I move. It's quite remarkable actually. The front quarters were so perfectly balanced they closed precisely on their own when I slipped the jacket on.
> 
> I guess I bring this story up because I think it is important to remember in bespoke you hire a tailor rather than purchase a house look. One is better served finding a master tailor who you can trust to do his/her best work on you, who is more focused on making a suit that flatters you most. House styles are fun to look at but they are secondary in bespoke.


Thank you for such a thorough and insightful comparison of your two recent suits. I'm sorry the Huntsman didn't work out quite as well as it might. The Despos suit sounds to be just about perfect for you. That I might prefer a somewhat different cut, doesn't either any less a beautiful thing than I'm sure they both are.

My experience with English bespoke is tiny, but while they've always been structured, they all didn't make the suit of armor you describe, did they? There was one house making RTW using much the same construction as their bespoke under different label quite some time ago. My morning addled mind can't find the name, but about 25 years ago I was handling the RTW version and was struck by how *soft *the whole jacket was - chest, shoulders, everything, while carefully shaped was very soft and not at all heavy.

While American, Oxxford also was making handmade clothing will similar techniques in that time period, and they too were exceptionally soft jackets that would smoothly glide on and sit lightly on the shoulders.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Matt S said:


> It seems that Savile Row is what defines bespoke, yet the most well-known houses on the Row only do a house style. You go to Huntsman or Anderson & Sheppard for their house style. Bespoke doesn't mean the tailor can make any style for you. Some tailors are more versatile than others, but they typically have one style they do best or prefer to do.


That has been my experience.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

With Huntsman's long-time reputation as the best of the UK (deserved or not) perhaps it might be a better idea to compare to Fioravanti who has the same reputation (again, deserved or not) here in the U.S. Leaving the number of buttons aside and excusing the unflattering Ebay photo ... Note as was earlier mentioned the "X" shape.










Given that these two tailors are the "go to guys" for the movers and shakers in their respective countries, perhaps the term "feminine" is unwarranted.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Flanderian said:


> Thank you for such a thorough and insightful comparison of your two recent suits. I'm sorry the Huntsman didn't work out quite as well as it might. The Despos suit sounds to be just about perfect for you. That I might prefer a somewhat different cut, doesn't either any less a beautiful thing than I'm sure they both are.
> 
> My experience with English bespoke is tiny, but while they've always been structured, they all didn't make the suit of armor you describe, did they? There was one house making RTW using much the same construction as their bespoke under different label quite some time ago. My morning addled mind can't find the name, but about 25 years ago I was handling the RTW version and was struck by how *soft *the whole jacket was - chest, shoulders, everything, while carefully shaped was very soft and not at all heavy.
> 
> While American, Oxxford also was making handmade clothing will similar techniques in that time period, and they too were exceptionally soft jackets that would smoothly glide on and sit lightly on the shoulders.


Just ran across the name of the RTW label which 25 years ago so impressed me with it soft construction, it was *Chester Barrie.

*Edit: Here's the weibsite.

I know nothing of their curent product, but they claim they're still making in the same factory. And at least they still know how to cut a jacket with closed quarters.

Double edit: I can't swear, but seem to recall that Chester Barrie was then owned and made by bespoke tailor Gieves and Hawkes.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

The Rake article (Fluff) on Chester Barrie -

https://www.therakeonline.com/read.php?id=103&d=2012-06-26&t=Chester-Barrie-with-Edward-Sexton

Please note unfortunate fashion victim, The Rake contributor Tom Stubbs, on the left, in *truly awful* waistcoat!









I'm unsure who requires flogging; him for wearing it, or whoever sold it to him!


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## Dempsy444 (Dec 3, 2009)

Matt S said:


> It seems that Savile Row is what defines bespoke, yet the most well-known houses on the Row only do a house style. You go to Huntsman or Anderson & Sheppard for their house style. Bespoke doesn't mean the tailor can make any style for you. Some tailors are more versatile than others, but they typically have one style they do best or prefer to do.


Yes, I have certainly heard this about A&S. Some of these firms are very proud of their lineage and they see themselves as preservers of it by sticking to what put them on the map. Part of the issue also I think is that a lot of
First time bespokers seek out the Row. Prior to the Row their only experience was with OTR where they could see what they got up front. For this person, there is 
something comforting about a house look when jumping into bespoke. It's a little bit more of a leap to wait and see what a tailor prescribes you. For the most part, I think I fell into the category of first time bespoker when I commissioned from Huntsman. I think it is a perfectly understandable approach to bespoke and one can make a strong case that seeking out a house with a specialty may yield the best results. There is also a degree of mystique in wearing a trademark look from an exclusive shop on Savile Row. Ultimately though I think one arrives at the conclusion that he just wants a really good tailor who will make him look his best.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Dempsy444 said:


> Yes, I have certainly heard this about A&S. Some of these firms are very proud of their lineage and they see themselves as preservers of it by sticking to what put them on the map. Part of the issue also I think is that a lot of
> First time bespokers seek out the Row. Prior to the Row their only experience was with OTR where they could see what they got up front. For this person, there is
> something comforting about a house look when jumping into bespoke. It's a little bit more of a leap to wait and see what a tailor prescribes you. For the most part, I think I fell into the category of first time bespoker when I commissioned from Huntsman. I think it is a perfectly understandable approach to bespoke and one can make a strong case that seeking out a house with a specialty may yield the best results. There is also a degree of mystique in wearing a trademark look from an exclusive shop on Savile Row. Ultimately though I think one arrives at the conclusion that he just wants a really good tailor who will make him look his best.


Just to satisfy my curiosity, what made you choose Huntsman over A&S? I'm afraid I have yet to commission a suit from a true Savile Row house, but were I to do so, A&S's soft drape beckons like a siren's call ...


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Dempsy444 said:


> Yes, I have certainly heard this about A&S. Some of these firms are very proud of their lineage and they see themselves as preservers of it by sticking to what put them on the map. Part of the issue also I think is that a lot of
> First time bespokers seek out the Row. Prior to the Row their only experience was with OTR where they could see what they got up front. For this person, there is
> something comforting about a house look when jumping into bespoke. It's a little bit more of a leap to wait and see what a tailor prescribes you. For the most part, I think I fell into the category of first time bespoker when I commissioned from Huntsman. I think it is a perfectly understandable approach to bespoke and one can make a strong case that seeking out a house with a specialty may yield the best results. There is also a degree of mystique in wearing a trademark look from an exclusive shop on Savile Row. Ultimately though I think one arrives at the conclusion that he just wants a really good tailor who will make him look his best.


I think it is all the things you mentioned, plus another. While theoretically a bespoke tailor can make any style of tailored clothing for a client, I don't really believe it is true for most. The cutters literally grow up in *a *system with *a* specific cut. Just because they become masters (hopefully) of interpolating an individual's set of measurements into that cut, doesn't necessarily mean they can translate a client's sometimes vague descriptions into a cut that is entirely foreign from that which they learned. Some may be better or worse at attempting this, but even cutters who go on to other firms still tend to cut in the style in which they were trained. My limited experience suggests that tailors cut clothes the way tailors cut clothes.


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## Dempsy444 (Dec 3, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> Thank you for such a thorough and insightful comparison of your two recent suits. I'm sorry the Huntsman didn't work out quite as well as it might. The Despos suit sounds to be just about perfect for you. That I might prefer a somewhat different cut, doesn't either any less a beautiful thing than I'm sure they both are.
> 
> My experience with English bespoke is tiny, but while they've always been structured, they all didn't make the suit of armor you describe, did they? There was one house making RTW using much the same construction as their bespoke under different label quite some time ago. My morning addled mind can't find the name, but about 25 years ago I was handling the RTW version and was struck by how *soft *the whole jacket was - chest, shoulders, everything, while carefully shaped was very soft and not at all heavy.
> 
> While American, Oxxford also was making handmade clothing will similar techniques in that time period, and they too were exceptionally soft jackets that would smoothly glide on and sit lightly on the shoulders.


I'm sure Huntsman can make a lightweight suit if it is asked for. I think if they know you will be wearing it in warm LA they may suggest a Mohair and use a lighter canvas. I selected an 11 oz cloth and live in San Francisco, so they probably made me a heavier one. I was struck by how heavy it was compared to any other suit i've had. Not meant to be a criticism. It is very high quality, sort of like when you shut the door in an Audi A8. It just feels well made and constructed. very nice sewing and finishing. Just need it to fit better and am hopeful it will.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Dempsy444 said:


> I'm sure Huntsman can make a lightweight suit if it is asked for. I think if they know you will be wearing it in warm LA they may suggest a Mohair and use a lighter canvas. I selected an 11 oz cloth and live in San Francisco, so they probably made me a heavier one. I was struck by how heavy it was compared to any other suit i've had. Not meant to be a criticism. It is very high quality, sort of like when you shut the door in an Audi A8. It just feels well made and constructed. very nice sewing and finishing. Just need it to fit better and am hopeful it will.


I suspect you're right about their ability to use a lighter canvas, etc., but I'd be interested to learn if anyone has gotten a very different cut (shape) from them. Sorry if the fit isn't right. Are they altering it?

I think most tailors take a couple of tries to get things just right.


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## Dempsy444 (Dec 3, 2009)

Balfour said:


> Just to satisfy my curiosity, what made you choose Huntsman over A&S? I'm afraid I have yet to commission a suit from a true Savile Row house, but were I to do so, A&S's soft drape beckons like a siren's call ...


The A&S look never really connected with me. Too much drape for me. I was looking for a more a structured suit with a close fit. Maybe a power suit as Mr. Kabbaz put it. I may have been reacting to the sack suits around me in California and the tendency towards Neapolitan here. lots of Kiton and Isai in California. I think I have arrived at the point where I like a blend of English structure and Italian finesse. From the pic Mr. kabbaz put up, it seems William Fioravanti accomplishes that nicely. I think Despos does too.

Maybe at some point I would try an A&S double breasted. If you live in London, certainly!


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## Dempsy444 (Dec 3, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> I suspect you're right about their ability to use a lighter canvas, etc., but I'd be interested to learn if anyone has gotten a very different cut (shape) from them. Sorry if the fit isn't right. Are they altering it?
> 
> I think most tailors take a couple of tries to get things just right.


Thanks Flanderian. Yes, they are altering it and seem committed to getting it right.


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## BluePincord (May 14, 2012)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


>


Jesus God you could land a plane on those lapels!


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

BluePincord said:


> Jesus God you could land a plane on those lapels!


Or become a many times over multi-millionaire by creating them.


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## Dempsy444 (Dec 3, 2009)

Flanderian said:


> I suspect you're right about their ability to use a lighter canvas, etc., but I'd be interested to learn if anyone has gotten a very different cut (shape) from them. Sorry if the fit isn't right. Are they altering it?
> 
> I think most tailors take a couple of tries to get things just right.


here is a short but interesting discussion on LL ...

https://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10708


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## BluePincord (May 14, 2012)

BluePincord said:


> Jesus God you could land a plane on those lapels!





Alexander Kabbaz said:


> Or become a many times over multi-millionaire by creating them.


Outstanding...then you can afford the plane!


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Flanderian said:


> I suspect you're right about their ability to use a lighter canvas, etc., but I'd be interested to learn if anyone has gotten a very different cut (shape) from them. Sorry if the fit isn't right. Are they altering it?
> 
> I think most tailors take a couple of tries to get things just right.


I wonder how light they are willing to go. And do you think there is a chance they can do a quarter lining?


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

BluePincord said:


> Outstanding...then you can afford the plane!


Last time I checked my name was not Fioravanti.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Dempsy444 said:


> The A&S look never really connected with me. Too much drape for me. I was looking for a more a structured suit with a close fit. Maybe a power suit as Mr. Kabbaz put it. I may have been reacting to the sack suits around me in California and the tendency towards Neapolitan here. lots of Kiton and Isai in California. I think I have arrived at the point where I like a blend of English structure and Italian finesse. From the pic Mr. kabbaz put up, it seems William Fioravanti accomplishes that nicely. I think Despos does too.
> 
> Maybe at some point I would try an A&S double breasted. If you live in London, certainly!


I agree. I should have clarified that - while I can't quite put my finger on the reason why - the A&S cut appeals greatly, but only in double-breasted.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Dempsy444 said:


> here is a short but interesting discussion on LL ...
> 
> https://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10708


Thank you. Yes, that *was* interesting.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Matt S said:


> I wonder how light they are willing to go. And do you think there is a chance they can do a quarter lining?


I think there is likely a good deal of difference between what they could and will do. If you wished them to do something they consider undesireable, they probably would strongly discourage it. And if they thought they might not be able to do it to their standards, they might suggest another tailor. I have no idea where their boundaries lie for individual features. It might be something they do all the time, or something they never do. Obviously, to do a quarter lining they have to be comfortable that their jackets are sewn to the needed standard.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Balfour said:


> I find the Huntsman cut too sharply structured, although I agree with Flanderian that it would be executed splendidly.
> 
> There is, I think, a happy compromise(*) between the American sack and the Huntsman cut. The soft drape of Anderson Sheppard would very much be my preferred style. As a middle road between the two (AS and Huntsman), Henry Poole provides a good example. (All credit to Will for educating me over a number of years through his excellent blog of the distinctions (try searching it for "house style" and "soft drape").)
> 
> ...


If I recall correctly, Huntsman's patrons are current or former holders of a queen's commission.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

hockeyinsider said:


> If I recall correctly, Huntsman's patrons are current or former holders of a queen's commission.


I wasn't quite sure what point you were making in your post (in relation to mine, at least).

I agree that Huntsman's cut is a highly structured cut, that some would equate with a 'military' cut.

Most officers are without independent means and on salaries in the £40,000 to 75,000 range,(*) and cannot of course afford any Savile Row suits for their civvies.

I have two close friends in the military. One tends to favour double-breasted Gieves and Hawkes suits outside uniform. The other (an aged relative) is rarely seen in anything other than 'country' clothes. I think he has a plain grey flannel suit for the occasional outings he makes to London!

(*) Beyond the very junior ranks.


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## rwaldron (Jun 22, 2012)

It looks like a cut best reserved for formalwear. Also, it looks like one must have a slender body to pull it off.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

rwaldron said:


> It looks like a cut best reserved for formalwear. Also, it looks like one must have a slender body to pull it off.


People usually only go to one tailor, thus they have their formalwear, suits and sports coats all with the same cut. This cut works just as well with a sports coat as it does with a dinner jacket. One could say exactly the same about Anderson & Sheppard's drape cut.

And any body type can wear a Huntsman suit. Huntsman cut's a suit in their style to fit your body. Their style is a close-fitting jacket, but they aren't going to fit a man with a 38-inch waist with the same measurements as a man with a 32-inch waist. Huntsman's built-up structure can be very flattering to a man with a corpulent figure, and a closely-fitted waist will give a rotund figure a little more shape.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Theres a big tendency for Americans to like more Italian influenced tailoring. The uninitiated imagine Italian tailoring to be more exotic, less stuffy and more sexy. Of course this is rubbish. As you can imagine I make for Americans and English expats here a very English suit but sometimes the Americans want me to neuter the style by softening up the shoulder line or removing the flare on the suit skirt. I can certainly see why Anderson and Shepherd is popular in the states because its the most "American" looking Savile Row style.

To my eyes at the extreme end soft silhouette suits look very femme, or like suits for teddy bears and boys. A suit with a shoulder line and nipped waist is very masculine and implies discipline and athleticism.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

David Reeves said:


> A suit with a shoulder line and nipped waist is very masculine and implies discipline and athleticism.


Or someone who needs to try too hard. Much is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

Flanderian said:


> Or someone who needs to try too hard. Much is in the eye of the beholder.


+1. Hear, hear.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

At least much of what I see from H. Huntsman is beautifully balanced and proportioned, and finely finished. Just not for me. And it is authentic to its origins where closely cut tailoring was essential for equestrian sport. It is true to its house traditions. But all English tailors once did not share this cut. Much of the contemporary tailoring that I see seems to owe more to designer fashion than to English tailoring traditions. A cut need not be brutish and blatant to be shapely. I'll take a graceful line and subtlety, all day, any day.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

I would never look to Huntsman. Exquisite as it may be, as Flanderian says, it is just not for me. Henry Poole if I wanted to avoid the extreme soft drape of A&S.

I respectfully disagree with Matt S on it being normal only to go to one tailor. I would happily order double breasted suits from A&S and single-breasted from Henry Poole (means permitting ... sadly, they do not!).


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Balfour said:


> I would never look to Huntsman. Exquisite as it may be, as Flanderian says, it is just not for me. Henry Poole if I wanted to avoid the extreme soft drape of A&S.
> 
> I respectfully disagree with Matt S on it being normal only to go to one tailor. I would happily order double breasted suits from A&S and single-breasted from Henry Poole (means permitting ... sadly, they do not!).


I think Henry poole suits have a defined waist and masculine shoulder line.


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

David Reeves said:


> I think Henry poole suits have a defined waist and masculine shoulder line.


Oh, no doubt. Their cut is not soft drape (& I would not want soft drape in SB). But it is not - IMO, at least - as an extreme cut as Huntsman.


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## Geezer (Apr 22, 2010)

Balfour said:


> Oh, no doubt. Their cut is not soft drape (& I would not want soft drape in SB). But it is not - IMO, at least - as an extreme cut as Huntsman.


I work with someone who wears a lot of Poole, so I see their work a lot. It has a very structured shoulder, and good waisting. But Huntsman - at least the things in their window, they will I am sure cut within their house style to accomodate personal preferences - go further in cutting the coat on the long side and slightly flaring the skirt.

A lot of course depends on the customer's build. If you are boxy, your suit will follow your boxiness, whatever the "house style". I have a slim waist: meaning that my old A and S (I now prefer more structure) suits have a very defined waist, which you wouldn't necessarily think they should from the descriptions of the generic cut. It is possible to over-think this stuff.

I find it hard to think that anyone who has seen HH being worn in the wild by a reasonably man-like man would think it was "feminine" (indeed drape cuts strike me as more "feminine" because they de-emphasise the chest and shoulders and have a soft floaty thing going on
).


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## Balfour (Mar 23, 2012)

^ Interesting. I, too, would not describe the Huntsman look as feminine - quite the opposite actually (the Porsche Boxter as against A&S's vintage Daimler). Unfortunately this discussion is largely of academic interest given my current means!:wink2:


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

David Reeves said:


> The uninitiated imagine Italian tailoring to be more exotic, less stuffy and more sexy. Of course this is rubbish.


A bit harsh, wouldn't you say?

I think I would reserve "exotic" for places like the Philippines or Morocco. Not tailoring.

"I do believe the English are the _stuffiest people_! Look at their four-post beds--all the curtains drawn, shutters closed, board before the chimney ..." Edward Bulwer-Lytton, _My Novel" 1892_

Sexiest? The Red Garter, Firenze



Flanderian said:


> Or someone who needs to try too hard. Much is in the eye of the beholder.


+1


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## Dempsy444 (Dec 3, 2009)

David Reeves said:


> Theres a big tendency for Americans to like more Italian influenced tailoring. The uninitiated imagine Italian tailoring to be more exotic, less stuffy and more sexy. Of course this is rubbish. As you can imagine I make for Americans and English expats here a very English suit but sometimes the Americans want me to neuter the style by softening up the shoulder line or removing the flare on the suit skirt. I can certainly see why Anderson and Shepherd is popular in the states because its the most "American" looking Savile Row style.
> 
> To my eyes at the extreme end soft silhouette suits look very femme, or like suits for teddy bears and boys. A suit with a shoulder line and nipped waist is very masculine and implies discipline and athleticism.


Those damn customers introducing their personal tastes! Where the hell do they think they are?!


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

The upper classes in England get around more and stereotypically they are rather stuffy but this is only a stereotype because I have friends that went to Harrow are they are mad men. The creative modern English man and the working class Englishman is quite interesting. I'm thinking David Bowie, Ian Curtis, Sean Rider, Ridley Scott, Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, Michael Caine, Tommy Nutter, Alexander McQueen etc,etc.

Of course bashing the English is just as popular on the world stage as bashing the U.S.A



Alexander Kabbaz said:


> A bit harsh, wouldn't you say?
> 
> I think I would reserve "exotic" for places like the Philippines or Morocco. Not tailoring.
> 
> ...


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

David Reeves said:


> The upper classes in England get around more and stereotypically they are rather stuffy but this is only a stereotype because I have friends that went to Harrow are they are mad men. The creative modern English man and the working class Englishman is quite interesting. I'm thinking David Bowie, Ian Curtis, Sean Rider, Ridley Scott, Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, Michael Caine, Tommy Nutter, Alexander McQueen etc,etc.
> 
> Of course bashing the English is just as popular on the world stage as bashing the U.S.A


Hello David. Forgive me these my formerly robust but latterly ailing faculties as I ponder thus;* yet how on Earth does Shaun Ryder merit mention in a tailoring thread?

*Do* people 'bash' the English (excepting the Scottish, of course). Goodness, I have never noticed this proposed enterprise.



* this semi-colon dedicated, in sincerity, to a dear colleague.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Dempsy444 said:


> Those damn customers introducing their personal tastes! Where the hell do they think they are?!


Exactly :icon_smile:. You wouldn't believe the number of times someone comes to "David Reeves Modern English Tailor" and says "I really like Italian suits" or "can you make something like a Neapolitan suit?". You can imagine this would be rather aggravating.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

David Reeves said:


> The upper classes in England get around more and stereotypically they are rather stuffy but this is only a stereotype because I have friends that went to Harrow are they are mad men. The creative modern English man and the working class Englishman is quite interesting. I'm thinking David Bowie, Ian Curtis, Sean Rider, Ridley Scott, Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, Michael Caine, Tommy Nutter, Alexander McQueen etc,etc.
> 
> Of course bashing the English is just as popular on the world stage as bashing the U.S.A


This:



David Reeves said:


> The uninitiated imagine Italian tailoring to be more exotic, less stuffy and more sexy. Of course this is rubbish.


is bashing the English?


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> This:
> 
> is bashing the English?


I am thinking of your Edward Bulwer-Lytton quote but to be honest I don't think too hard about posts.


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

David Reeves said:


> ... to be honest I don't think too hard about posts.


 OMG.

Just shut up, Kabbaz. Leave it along. Go home. Go to bed. All will be right with the world in the morning. :icon_headagainstwal


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## yen157 (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm with these two gents



PMRuby said:


> Well, it doesn't really matter but for the way practically all OTR one-button suits are cut. They look like they should be worn to the club; not at work. They're typically very skinny fitting (something I abhor when I see it in a business setting) and have a very low gorge, exposing a longer portion of the chest - there's nothing inherently wrong with the latter; it just is not what we're accustomed to seeing in a business setting, so it may look out of place. So, it's not the one button suit that's the problem - it's the way the majority of one button suits seem to be cut that makes them more for social wear than for the business environment.





CuffDaddy said:


> The simple reason is that the Huntsman cut has to be precise to work. It is not readily amenable to OTR wear. 99% of men wear OTR. And probably 75% of those who wear something custom simply get the same styles they could get OTR.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

Because I cannot afford it, and those who can probably don't have the right physique. And those who can and have the physique are young and dumb and buy Armani.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Shaver said:


> Hello David. Forgive me these my formerly robust but latterly ailing faculties as I ponder thus;* yet how on Earth does Shaun Ryder merit mention in a tailoring thread?
> 
> *Do* people 'bash' the English (excepting the Scottish, of course). Goodness, I have never noticed this proposed enterprise.
> 
> ...


How about Mr. "Bez" , sir? :icon_smile_big:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Bez_at_Gulfest_2011.jpg


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## Alexander Kabbaz (Jan 9, 2003)

Shaver said:


> ;*
> 
> * this semi-colon dedicated, in sincerity, to a dear colleague.


I have the temerity to presume and therefore offer humble gratitude.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Brio1 said:


> How about Mr. "Bez" , sir? :icon_smile_big:
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Bez_at_Gulfest_2011.jpg


Indeed. Both these ex-Happy Mondaians are not so well attired.

Apropos of nothing, Bez resides but a short distance from my domicile. When he is not being detained at Her Majesty's Pleasure, of course.


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

Alexander Kabbaz said:


> I have the temerity to presume and therefore offer humble gratitude.


It was my trenchant pleasure, acuminous AK.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Leighton said:


> Because I cannot afford it, and those who can probably don't have the right physique. And those who can and have the physique are young and dumb and buy Armani.


It doesn't matter what your physique is when you go to a bespoke tailor. They can fit their style to any body type, and I don't believe they turn away people who don't have their ideal physique. Physique only matters when buying OTR.


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## David Reeves (Dec 19, 2008)

Matt S said:


> It doesn't matter what your physique is when you go to a bespoke tailor. They can fit their style to any body type, and I don't believe they turn away people who don't have their ideal physique. Physique only matters when buying OTR.


Quite so although a few designer tailors in NYC actually do turn people away but thats lack of ability on their part and the limitations of the stock patterns they use. I think a structured English style can work on everybody (to a degree). I've made suits for 300 + lb men that have looked as good as the suits for someone who's a 36 long.


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