# Edward Green Top Drawer Shoes



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*Edward Green Top Drawer Shoe Program*

I had the opportunity to spend several hours today with Hilary Freeman, Alex Bateman and Robert Godley at the Edward Green trunk show at Sky Valet in Washington, DC. My general observations about the trunk show are being posted in a separate thread, but I thought that given the interest, it would be appropriate to share what I have learned and seen of Edward Green's much anticipated _Top Drawer _line.

As many participants of this Forum know, Edward Green used to have a high end _Top Drawer_ line of shoes. When EG renewed its bespoke operation some years back, it was felt that having bespoke, _Top Drawer,_ made-to-order and ready-to-wear offerings was a bit too confusing. Moreover, as Edward Green set out to improve the quality and elegance of its ready-to-wear shoes, more and more of the _Top Drawer_ details were being added to its RTW models. Consequently the _Top Drawer _ line was eventually dropped. Now that Edward Green is now longer offering a bespoke service, it was felt that there was again a need to allow customers a greater range of construction and styling options and to offer certain features that are very akin to what one might find in a bespoke shoe. Thus, the _Top Drawer _approach has now been reintroduced.

Perhaps the most notable aspect of this program is while the shoes are still constructed on EG's normal lasts (ie...an individual last is _not_ made for the customer), it does allow the individual to specify a very large number of changes to existing patterns. The distinction between this and made-to-order is one of degree. While with made-to-order one could select virtually any appropriate last, leather and finish and could specify certain alterations in the detailing, the basic shoe pattern remained the same. The _Top Drawer _approach allows the customer to make almost any variation that can be accomodated by the skills and abilities of the Edward Green craftsmen.

That said, there are certain basic differences between Edward Green's normal models and its Top Drawer shoes. First, the sole and heels are more refined. The waist -- whch has become increasingly beveled in recent years -- has been reduced and is even neater and elegantly finished than on standard models. The heel is closer and very slightly tapered and the abutment of heel and sole is very close and finely finished. The fiddle waist is enhanced with an added piece of leather than not only improves the look but is said to add a bit more support. And customers may personalize this footwear by adding their initials (in the form of a nailhead design) to the soles of their shoes.

The _Top Drawer_ approach is now only being offered for lace-up type shoes. A catalogue is being put together and should be available shortly. I should note, however, that while at close range one can see these refinements and appreciate the added workmanship that goes into their making, these details may not be readily apparent at a distance and thus general photographs simply may not appear to be that different from what individuals are accustomed to seeing in Edward Green shoes. Keep in mind, this is not a new set of models or designs; rather _Top Drawer_ is both a program to allow customers flexibility in design and construction and an increased level of craftsmanship and detail.

My understanding is that the price for _Top Drawer _shoes will be in the $1500 - $1600US range.


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Thanks, medwards, for the excellent feature.

For reasons best known to the powers that be at EG, there are no trunk shows in London and we in the UK will see every new introduction into the catalogue last, and only via Japanese publications.

(I believe, Alex B. is reading this and the other forum. So, Alex, are you listening: We in the UK want to be informed as well.)


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Thank you for the report, medwards. Was it your understanding that EG was willing to make completely one-off patterns, if necessary, as would be the case for bespoke shoes?


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

medwards said:


> Perhaps the most notable aspect of this program is while the shoes are still constructed on EG's normal lasts (ie...an individual last is _not_ made for the customer), it does allow the individual to specify a very large number of changes to existing patterns. The distinction between this and made-to-order is one of degree. While with made-to-order one could select virtually any appropriate last, leather and finish and could specify certain alterations in the detailing, the basic shoe pattern remained the same. The _Top Drawer _approach allows the customer to make almost any variation that can be accomodated by the skills and abilities of the Edward Green craftsmen.


Considering that I've never been able to conceive of a variation that they were not happy to accommodate, it will be interesting to learn what this might mean.

Perhaps all departures from the standard patterns will be considered top drawer.


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Will said:


> Considering that I've never been able to conceive of a variation that they were not happy to accommodate, it will be interesting to learn what this might mean.


The only case that I recall hearing of is that of RJman's famous butterfly loafers, and EG had an extended go at those before admitting defeat. But I have not ever requested anything completely off-the-wall from them before.


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

jcusey said:


> The only case that I recall hearing of is that of RJman's famous butterfly loafers, and EG had an extended go at those before admitting defeat. But I have not ever requested anything completely off-the-wall from them before.


Funny, my recollection is that it was a pair of Shannon boots with some added feature. Interesting how early Alzheimer's works!


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

great report and i cant wait to see them, did anyone take any pic's?


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

In my opinion, this venture, with the shoes in the $1500 - $1600 US range will likely attract few takers and will be a bust. It's hard for me to see that many would feel the need to add special features to designs that are superb to start with, and, as Will points out, EG can accommodate a lot of options through the special order program at not much more than half the cost (about $950 now, I guess). When I had a couple of pairs of EGs made up on special order, I could specify the last, leather color, trimming of the soles, medallion pattern, and one or two other things I can't recall at the moment. The idea of my initials outlined in the nail pattern on the soles or heels leaves me cold, and certainly is not something I'd ever want. So, what would most people get for the extra $600? A slightly trimmer waist and a hint of a fiddleback form on the sole at the waist (both things hardly even visible from more than 2 or 3 feet away)? With the JLobb Prestige-line shoes, you get pretty much all of this for about $270 less. One more example, in my opinion, of bad judgment on Hilary Freeman's part (at least with respect to the price point chosen).


----------



## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

Very interesting, medwards...thank you.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Thank you for the report, medwards. Was it your understanding that EG was willing to make completely one-off patterns, if necessary, as would be the case for bespoke shoes?


I honestly didn't ask that question. The discussion really focused on changes to existing patterns, including what Alex termed "bold" variations. I simply don't know much one might deviate from their present patterns under this program. But as Will notes below, in the past EG has certainly been willing to try accomodate "variations" if they had the means and methods to accomplish it.



Will said:


> Considering that I've never been able to conceive of a variation that they were not happy to accommodate, it will be interesting to learn what this might mean.
> 
> Perhaps all departures from the standard patterns will be considered top drawer.


The key phrase is "departures from the standard _pattern_." It is my understanding that the made-to-order option is continuing and one can continue to select lasts, leathers, colours, finishes and certain details (such as adding or subtracting a medallion, the size of certain punching, et al) as a part of that approach. The key to the _Top Drawer _program is the ability to make modifications to the shoe's _pattern_. Of course, the _Top Drawer _models will have additional refinements as well...at least some of which are described in my initial posting.



Roger said:


> In my opinion, this venture, with the shoes in the $1500 - $1600 US range will likely attract few takers and will be a bust. It's hard for me to see that many would feel the need to add special features to designs that are superb to start with, and, as Will points out, EG can accommodate a lot of options through the special order program at not much more than half the cost (about $950 now, I guess). When I had a couple of pairs of EGs made up on special order, I could specify the last, leather color, trimming of the soles, medallion pattern, and one or two other things I can't recall at the moment. The idea of my initials outlined in the nail pattern on the soles or heels leaves me cold, and certainly is not something I'd ever want. So, what would most people get for the extra $600? A slightly trimmer waist and a hint of a fiddleback form on the sole at the waist (both things hardly even visible from more than 2 or 3 feet away)? With the JLobb Prestige-line shoes, you get pretty much all of this for about $270 less. One more example, in my opinion, of bad judgment on Hilary Freeman's part (at least with respect to the price point chosen).


I won't hazard a guess as to the extent to which customers will avail themselves of this service. One of the challenges with high end products such as Edward Green shoes is that the distinctions as one adds refinements may seem rather marginal, but entail a fair amount of additional skill, labour and/or expense. I imagine one could look at this is in the reverse. One might be getting a shoe very much akin to bespoke in both design and quality with the exception of an individualized last. For those for whom the standard EG lasts are a good fit, this means getting a bespoke-equivalent shoe for half the cost. (I am just putting forward one way customers might look at this program, not trying to equate _Top Drawer _and _bespoke _ footwear.)


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

medwards said:


> One might be getting a shoe very much akin to bespoke in both design and quality with the exception of an individualized last. For those for whom the standard EG lasts are a good fit, this means getting a bespoke-equivalent shoe for half the cost. (I am just putting forward one way customers might look at this program, not trying to equate _Top Drawer _and _bespoke _footwear.)


Well, are we really going to get, except for the last, a "bespoke-equivalent shoe"? My understanding of the bespoke shoe process, at least as that process is operationalized by makers like George Glasgow and Tony Gaziano, is that they are pretty-well completely hand-made--hand lasted, hand-welted, etc., with the beveling and, particularly, fiddleback form of the sole at the waist developed by the handwork that shapes the sole and uppers (as opposed to being created by simply adding on a piece of leather as you note will be the case with the new program). As has been noted many times on this forum (and confirmed for me by Susie Jones), there is very little resemblance between the shoe-making process used with RTW (or special-order) and that used with bespoke shoes. Is there any indication that the Top Drawer shoes will be made this latter way, or can we expect them to be basically machine-made shoes, as are the RTW and special-order EG shoes?


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Roger, as I noted, I was not trying to equate the _Top Drawer _line and bespoke shoes. I was simply putting forward one possible way of thinking that might lead a customer to avail himself of the _Top Drawer_ option. At no time did I hear anyone at Edward Green imply that these shoes were "bespoke" or "bespoke-equivalent." The latter was simply my shorthand term for trying to describe how some _customers_ might_ feel _about the process.


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

I don't know exactly what Edward Green's motivations were in bringing back the Top Drawer line, but I would point out that it could be an overwhelming success even if very few order the shoes. I would imagine that they don't have to hire new workers or buy new machinery to make the Top Drawer shoes, which means that the added cost of offering Top Drawer shoes is likely pretty trivial. But the potential upside is significant: just as diffusion lines bask in the glow of couture lines from the same designer and bespoke shoe operations serve as a form of advertising for their owners' RTW shoe operations, so too could the Top Drawer line drive interest in regular EG shoes.

(Note that I am not saying that regular EG shoes are to Top Drawer shoes as diffusion lines are to couture or RTW shoes are to bespoke shoes, just that in clothing higher-quality or higher-prestige goods can sometimes drive demand for lower-quality or lower-prestige goods from the same maker or brand.)


----------



## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

I wonder how much better TD can be than Gaziano's MTO shoes, which are already a leap beyond regular EG, at about 2/3s the proposed price of TD.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Not sure it matters if they are better than TG which is still essentially production constrained and unknown aside from this forum and a few similar crowds. TD gives EG a way to charge a little more for experiments like the ones RJ requested, which were surely money losers for the factory. 

Further, some customers are indifferent to price. For example, Larry Ellison wears EG. Neither he nor many of the Japanese shoe enthusiasts are likely to be discouraged by the premium.


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

If they'd bloody reply to my messages I'd be glad to find out.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

jcusey said:


> I would imagine that they don't have to hire new workers or buy new machinery to make the Top Drawer shoes, which means that the added cost of offering Top Drawer shoes is likely pretty trivial.


Indeed, one aspect of this new program of which Hillary seemed very proud was that it would tap into some of the additional skills and expertise of their current craftsmen, who apparently find these additional touches a rewarding challenge.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Great update on EG medwards. Thanks! 

One thing about MTO and bespoke. Most peoples feet are differently sized so you really do gain a bit with bespoke, it's not a matter of a degree.

Still, at this price, it will be interesting to see how things develop but I think Gaziano will give them good competition. I think it's great that Hilary is doing this in any event.


----------



## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

RJman said:


> If they'd bloody reply to my messages I'd be glad to find out.


Just go down to Crockett and Jones and have Dimitri make you up a *real* bespoke equivalent for the exact same price. You do live in Paris afterall.

FWIW, he doesn't respond to my emails very often.


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

iammatt said:


> Just go down to Crockett and Jones and have Dimitri make you up a *real* bespoke equivalent for the exact same price. You do live in Paris afterall.
> 
> FWIW, he doesn't respond to my emails very often.


Way ahead of you.

But I also like the Green.


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

iammatt said:


> Just go down to Crockett and Jones and have Dimitri make you up a *real* bespoke equivalent for the exact same price. You do live in Paris afterall.


After seeing pictures of your DG shoes, I think that he would probably have to take out a restraining order (or whatever the equivalent is in French law) to keep me out of his shop at those prices if I lived in Paris.


----------



## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Will said:


> Not sure it matters if they are better than TG.


It may not matter to EG's bottom line, but it matters to the rest of us!


----------



## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

RJman said:


> If they'd bloody reply to my messages I'd be glad to find out.


I must have missed something in the past; what shoes are you guys talking about?


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

manton said:


> I wonder how much better TD can be than Gaziano's MTO shoes, which are already a leap beyond regular EG, at about 2/3s the proposed price of TD.


I'm not sure that _better _is quite the appropriate term. I don't believe the folks at EG would use the term "better" to describe _Top Drawer_ even compared to their regular offerings. They would tell you that they try to make the highest quality shoe possible in either case. However, there are additional elements of workmanship in the _Top Drawer _crafted shoes and, of course, the customer has enormous flexibility in their design. As to how they will compare to other makers, that would be both speculative and subjective on my part. I assume that Edward Green is looking to meet the desires of some of its customers -- and presumably future customers -- who are looking for a shoe that reflects their unique style and design preferences without going bespoke. They have a long established presence, retail outlets, an excellent reputation, their own factory and staff, and a good customer base. I would think those assets count for quite a bit. Gaziano & Girling is just starting out and we will have to see how successful they are in developing this new enterprise. I, for one, wish them the best of luck (though I would still like to know who will be making their made-to-order shoes). What I find intriguing about Mr. Gaziano's approach is that it would seem to me his made-to-order option can either be seen as a stepping stone to his bespoke models or in competition with them. I imagine only time will tell.


----------



## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Well, the factory made G&G shoe is made to higher specs than the typical EG shoe, and has a more bespoke looking aesthetic overall, especially in the waist, heel and sole.

Will is right that, as yet, Tony offers no flexibility to change the designs of his factory shoes. Still, there are five or so models that I could order before I felt the need to make changes. So for me, a premium of some $500 for Top Drawer would have to be justified by an extraordinary level of craftsmanship -- one that clearly exceeded the G&G. Even then, I doubt I would do it, but I would have to see the shoes.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

manton said:


> Will is right that, as yet, Tony offers no flexibility to change the designs of his factory shoes.


And that is the very essence of the _Top Drawer_ program. So one can take his choice. If Mr. Gaziano's styling and detailing are to your satisfaction and you find his craftsmanship superor, I assume you would be well served to choose G&G. If that's not the case and you want any variation on any of the many, many styles Edward Green makes as well as some refined construction details, then Top Drawer will be a more appropriate choice. As for me, I am just happy that both these shoemakers are there and are striving to provide a quality product.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

medwards said:


> As for me, I am just happy that both these shoemakers are there and are striving to provide a quality product.


They are both small and personalized businesses. We need them both to succeed.

And we need Dmitri Gomez to make trips to the U.S.


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

jcusey said:


> I don't know exactly what Edward Green's motivations were in bringing back the Top Drawer line, but I would point out that it could be an overwhelming success even if very few order the shoes. I would imagine that they don't have to hire new workers or buy new machinery to make the Top Drawer shoes, which means that the added cost of offering Top Drawer shoes is likely pretty trivial. But the potential upside is significant: just as diffusion lines bask in the glow of couture lines from the same designer and bespoke shoe operations serve as a form of advertising for their owners' RTW shoe operations, so too could the Top Drawer line drive interest in regular EG shoes.


That's a good point. When I said I thought this enterprise would be a bust, I didn't mean that it would cost EG any money, just that few would see the enhancements in the TD line worth the $600 premium over the regular EG RTW price. But, sure, there are some very wealthy individuals to whom price is no impediment who might buy them. Just not many AAAC forumers, in my opinion. Had they decided to price them at about $1250 US, however, I think that a few more forumers might take the plunge, since at that price point, they would be a viable alternative the JLobb Prestige line shoes that already have a couple of the enhancements.

As Manton has noted, it would, I believe, take a noticeable level of superior craftsmanship for knowledgeable shoe buffs to see the premium as justified. To me, it would take a certain amount of true hand work--such as the kind of hand-performed beveling and fiddleback sole treatment seen on bespoke shoes--to come anywhere near justifying the surcharge.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Roger said:


> When I said I thought this enterprise would be a bust, I didn't mean that it would cost EG any money, just that few would see the enhancements in the TD line worth the $600 premium over the regular EG RTW price. But, sure, there are some very wealthy individuals to whom price is no impediment who might buy them. Just not many AAAC forumers, in my opinion.


I believe there are quite enough Japanese shoe fetishists who will be happy to have their initials in the shoes.


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

medwards said:


> I assume that Edward Green is looking to meet the desires of some of its customers -- and presumably future customers -- who are looking for a shoe that reflects their unique style and design preferences without going bespoke.


I'm not getting a picture of what is meant by "style" and, particularly, "design" features here. And I appreciate that you have heard only the broad outline of the EG plan and not the specifics. However, what do you understand the possibilities to be wrt the buyer's hand in actually "designing" the shoe? One would assume, from your description of the program, that even with the TD program, one will still be buying a Newbury or Ashby model, etc., and would have all the options available in the MTO program of specifying last, color, presence of absence of medallion, etc. However, presumably more options exist to alter the style or design. Any idea of what these would be--i.e., options not available with MTO?


----------



## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Roger said:


> I'm not getting a picture of what is meant by "style" and, particularly, "design" features here. And I appreciate that you have heard only the broad outline of the EG plan and not the specifics. However, what do you understand the possibilities to be wrt the buyer's hand in actually "designing" the shoe? One would assume, from your description of the program, that even with the TD program, one will still be buying a Newbury or Ashby model, etc., and would have all the options available in the MTO program of specifying last, color, presence of absence of medallion, etc. However, presumably more options exist to alter the style or design. Any idea of what these would be--i.e., options not available with MTO?


I kind of chuckle a little about the idea of having tons of options. Every time that I order a pair of shoes, be it special order or bespoke, I choose something that is basically the same as one of the samples. I suppose that I have no imagination or something, but I just can't imagine wanting something that is SO different than every other shoe out there.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Roger said:


> I'm not getting a picture of what is meant by "style" and, particularly, "design" features here. And I appreciate that you have heard only the broad outline of the EG plan and not the specifics. However, what do you understand the possibilities to be wrt the buyer's hand in actually "designing" the shoe? One would assume, from your description of the program, that even with the TD program, one will still be buying a Newbury or Ashby model, etc., and would have all the options available in the MTO program of specifying last, color, presence of absence of medallion, etc. However, presumably more options exist to alter the style or design. Any idea of what these would be--i.e., options not available with MTO?


Again, you are quite right that my knowledge of this program is from a single -- albeit lengthy -- conversation with Hilary Freeman and Alex Bateman and from seeing just two examples of such _Top Drawer _shoes (both of which were actually made for a customer). Thus, I hesitate to speculate too much and I hope that Forum participants realize that these are just my understandings and that I in no way can or would speak for Edward Green. I'm just a customer.  That said, I believe modifications of a pattern would include adding or eliminating a toe cap or changing its shape or size; changes in seam placement; adding heel counters or redisigning their shape; etc. As I noted earlier, Edward Green is putting together a catalogue to accompany this program and I assume it will detail the programs possibilities and limitations.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

iammatt said:


> I kind of chuckle a little about the idea of having tons of options. Every time that I order a pair of shoes, be it special order or bespoke, I choose something that is basically the same as one of the samples. I suppose that I have no imagination or something, but I just can't imagine wanting something that is SO different than every other shoe out there.


You too! :icon_smile:

I have been having shoes made for a very long time...and have talen advantage of Edward Green's made-to-order program as well. In all those years (and with all those shoes) I have yet to order a single pair that truly differed from one of the basic, classic styles for which British shoemakers are known. Of course, I am rather traditional in my tastes (ok, _stodgy_) and I am sure there are folks out there who are far more creative and style-setting than I.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

iammatt said:


> I kind of chuckle a little about the idea of having tons of options. Every time that I order a pair of shoes, be it special order or bespoke, I choose something that is basically the same as one of the samples. I suppose that I have no imagination or something, but I just can't imagine wanting something that is SO different than every other shoe out there.


It doesn't need to be very different from other shoes. It only needs to be something they don't have tooling for. If you were to ask them to make a casual strap and buckle shoe, like one of Cleverley's, for example, I don't think they would have a pattern. That would add considerably to the time it takes them.


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Will said:


> I believe there are quite enough Japanese shoe fetishists who will be happy to have their initials in the shoes.


Not *in* the shoe, but *on* the shoe.
If TD shoes can come up with individualised medallion designs, integrating the client's initials, then the range would be unbeatable.

It would be easy to set up a computer program which would turn any given initials into a medallion design. Print the picture in the correct size, stick it to the upper leather and punch through paper and leather one hole at a time.


----------



## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

I had Cleverley make me a quarter brogue with a wing instead of a straight cap once. That's as far as I've ever gone. All my other shoes are straight from the canon.


----------



## JQB (Nov 29, 2006)

Better still go To Shipton & Heneage round the corner at Boulevard Raspail. Bespoke looking shoes at off the peg prices!


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

JQB said:


> Better still go To Shipton & Heneage round the corner at Boulevard Raspail. Bespoke looking shoes at off the peg prices!


Um, no. Shipton & Heneage shoes (really just a brand selling C&J and AS-manufactured shoes) mostly are attractive and are reasonably well-made, but they do not look bespoke; and they really can't compare with even regular-line EG shoes.


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Will said:


> They are both small and personalized businesses. We need them both to succeed.


Indeed. I fear that GG will end up cannibalizing business from EG, but I hope that my fear is wrong and that the addition of GG will ultimately make both more successful.



> And we need Dmitri Gomez to make trips to the U.S.


And Riccardo Bestetti, and Stefano Bemer, and Koji Suzuki, and...

Of course, if they made regular trips to the US, their prices wouldn't be so low.


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Roger said:


> I'm not getting a picture of what is meant by "style" and, particularly, "design" features here. And I appreciate that you have heard only the broad outline of the EG plan and not the specifics. However, what do you understand the possibilities to be wrt the buyer's hand in actually "designing" the shoe? One would assume, from your description of the program, that even with the TD program, one will still be buying a Newbury or Ashby model, etc., and would have all the options available in the MTO program of specifying last, color, presence of absence of medallion, etc. However, presumably more options exist to alter the style or design. Any idea of what these would be--i.e., options not available with MTO?


The only thing that I know about the Top Drawer program is what medwards has written in this thread, but suppose that you wanted a pair of side-lace whole-cuts or a side elastic with apron and toe stitching as on the Dover or a cap-toe oxford with reversed seams. None of these would be possible (I assume) in EG's MTO program. They just might be possible in the TD program.


----------



## kabert (Feb 6, 2004)

jcusey said:


> Um, no. Shipton & Heneage shoes (really just a brand selling C&J and AS-manufactured shoes) mostly are attractive and are reasonably well-made, but they do not look bespoke; and they really can't compare with even regular-line EG shoes.


But doesn't S&H do as C&J does for Cleverley -- make some models that are unique to the shop? There are a few fantastic RTW Cleverleys that I understand are made by C&J exclusively for Cleverley.


----------



## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

jcusey said:


> Indeed. I fear that GG will end up cannibalizing business from EG, but I hope that my fear is wrong and that the addition of GG will ultimately make both more successful.
> 
> And Riccardo Bestetti, and Stefano Bemer, and Koji Suzuki, and...
> 
> Of course, if they made regular trips to the US, their prices wouldn't be so low.


Dimitri told me that he won't even go to London to see customers anymore.


----------



## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*Edward Green shoes*

Due to the weakness of the dollar against the pound, euro and the yen many foreigners either come to the United States to buy the shoes or have a family member or friend order the shoes and the shoes are shipped back overseas


----------



## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

Roger, why must you rain on every shoe parade?? Anyways I think you are wrong. I'd bet the new TD program is a success.


----------



## aportnoy (Sep 12, 2005)

A Harris said:


> Roger, why must you rain on every shoe parade?? Anyways I think you are wrong. I'd bet the new TD program is a success.


I agree that TD will be a success, but the real question is will it be as a result of incremental sales or sales cannibalized from the MTO program. In the MTO program I have been able to specificy some fairly intricate alterations to existing models such as a change in the number of eyelets, changes in toecaps and heel counters, etc. If EG is going to pull those type of options out of the MTO program, it will definitely supress sales which many of which will migrate to TD.

That all being said, approaching $1800 with tax and trees in NYC, that's bespoke territory with the likes of Scafora and many other fine bespoke makers in that neighborhood, it will be interesting to watch.


----------



## luk-cha (Apr 29, 2006)

i for 1 cant wait to see them i think it will be a leap in the right dirrection from EG and good look to them it will be a more in the right dirrection as more customers are looking for that more personal feeling in certain purchases, and if they are all made to order then you dont have to hold stock, so it will be just a case of producing catalogs and if they were smart, they could do as G&G have done and offer a downloadable catalog from the website. with this they will too save on the printing, posting charges as customers are just looking for a catalog!


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

A Harris said:


> Roger, why must you rain on every shoe parade?


LOL--hilarious you'd say that, Andrew. Looking at _just the first_ _page_ (actually the top half of it!) of the present forum at this moment, I notice that I've posted on two other shoe threads appearing there--concerning Carmina and Paraboot--and have been positive about both (emitting embarrassingly gushing comments about Carmina and a liking for a particular Paraboot model). If you're going to insist on being critical of other forum members, you'll have to start paying attention! In any case, perhaps you've forgotten the purpose of forums like this one, and that is to hear all opinions--pro and con--not to comment on the response tendencies of other forumers, particularly when you get it wrong. Perhaps not a surprising comment, though, from someone who has spent years selling shoes on eBay and has, it would seem, yet to meet a shoe he didn't like. :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

> Perhaps not a surprising comment, though, from someone who has spent years selling shoes on eBay and has, it would seem, yet to meet a shoe he didn't like.


Uh, ok...

Anyways, I was obviously being dramatic. But I just don't see the point of making harsh statements like this:



> In my opinion, this venture, with the shoes in the $1500 - $1600 US range will likely attract few takers and will be a bust...One more example, in my opinion, of bad judgment on Hilary Freeman's part (at least with respect to the price point chosen).


Who knows more about pricing and selling shoes, Hilary Freeman or you? You don't approve of the move they've made, fine. But why share such a negative opinion here, in a thread meant to introduce these shoes. Of what possible benefit is it to anyone??


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

A Harris said:


> Uh, ok...
> 
> Anyways, I was obviously being dramatic. But I just don't see the point of making harsh statements like this:
> 
> Who knows more about pricing and selling shoes, Hilary Freeman or you? You don't approve of the move they've made, fine. But why share such a negative opinion here, in a thread meant to introduce these shoes. Of what possible benefit is it to anyone??


I think I identified the "possible benefit" one post up, Andrew, where I expressed the view held, I believe, by almost all forumers that forums like this exist to provide discussion and varying viewpoints, some positive, some negative. I'm sure it wasn't the desire of Medwards, when he reported on his conversation with the EG people, that no reaction--laudatory or critical--follow the OP. _That's_ _what we do_ on this forum--discuss all aspects of clothing and style, along with the business that specializes in them. I believe that most forumers do find it beneficial to hear the negative as well as the positive.

As for who is qualified to criticize, it's likely, after 6 years in office, that President Bush knows more about running a government than most individual Americans, but that certainly doesn't keep almost all Americans from having and often forcefully expressing an opinion about individual policies and decisions--both pro and con. Similarly and closer to home, many negative opinions have been expressed on this forum about the wisdom of business decisions made by Prada vis-a-vis Church's shoes and by Allen-Edmonds regarding some of their initiatives, such as their Casual Comfort Collection, even though few, if any of us, have the specific business experience in the clothing industry of the top decision-makers in those companies. For some reason, most of us don't feel that we have to have all the general expertise of the decision-makers to criticize specific actions! How many "What were they thinking" moments have all of us had in response to gonzo utterances by CEOs or boondoggle strategic decisions by those in high places?

I might just add a somewhat tangential and less important point: that I have witnessed additional instances of what has seemed to me like poor judgment on the part of the new regime at EG, and that is why I referred to this as "one _more_ example...." Given the central theme of the thread, I felt that it would simply deflect the discussion to get into these other things and so will leave them perhaps for another day.

Like most forumers, I welcome more options for shoe lovers, and the TD program does represent this. Really my sole criticism concerns the price point chosen for the enhancements to be offered, as I think that bringing the TD shoes with these enhancements in at JLobb Prestige line prices (around $1250) would be an initiative that many of us would welcome.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

Very interesting discussion.

I think this is a good thing possibly for Edward Green's business. From a business perspective, I think that EG may gain more profit by offering a way to upsell (for the right reasons) customers into a better shoe at a higher price and maybe higher margin.

There are intangible reasons for this as well perhaps-strengthening the EG-client relationship and giving them a path to buy more. If it keeps more clients from going the bespoke route or even just enhances the quality-brand relationship then it is likely a good long-term strategy.


----------



## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

*More rain in the forecast*

Although I am not an EG MTO or even a potential TD customer at this point, I do think that until there is greater clarity between the possibilities and limitations of both programs, it remains somewhat confusing to customers and is a poor business decision.

Given the flexibility of the MTO indicated by aportnoy and others, I have to agree with Roger that paying a $500+ premium for a quasi-fiddle waist and for one's initials on the sole is not exactly a great value proposition considering the other options on the market.

There will always be some buyers with lots of $ to spend and the occasional off-the-wall request for butterfly loafers but if I was managing EG, I would now start enforcing serious restrictions on the options available via MTO beyond last and leather. Otherwise, it's hard to see how the premium can be justified and history may well repeat itself:



medwards said:


> As many participants of this Forum know, Edward Green used to have a high end _Top Drawer_ line of shoes. When EG renewed its bespoke operation some years back, it was felt that having bespoke, _Top Drawer,_ made-to-order and ready-to-wear offerings was a bit too confusing. Moreover, as Edward Green set out to improve the quality and elegance of its ready-to-wear shoes, more and more of the _Top Drawer_ details were being added to its RTW models. Consequently the _Top Drawer _ line was eventually dropped.


I don't know Hilary Freeman or the other instances Roger is referring to but as someone who observes and analyzes business strategies for a living, I have to admit that bringing back a program that was discontinued, for the reasons cited by medwards, as a response to losing Tony G's bespoke services seems like the type of solution that was written on the back of a cocktail napkin.

Overheard at EG meeting:

_- "So we won't be offering bespoke shoes anymore. What should we do about it?

- :idea: Let's re-introduce the old TD program so we can still sell shoes to those willing to pay $1,500+.

- But didn't we stop that program because we were offering most of the details on RTW shoes and the customization options via MTO?

- Yeah, so we'll add a piece of leather to the fiddle waist, put client's initials on the soles with nails and tell them they can have more flexibility in altering RTW patterns for only $1,500-$1,600. The Japanese buyers will love it.

- Great idea, let's have another beer..."_

Customers seeking a bespoke product are unlikely to be attracted to TD because it's not a bespoke shoe. And if the buyers on this forum are any indication, the demand for special features not available through MTO is miniscule. I believe that without clear restrictions on MTO options, it will be hard to justify the TD premium, which will occuppy the unenviable position of a not-quite-bespoke product at near-bespoke and $500+ more than MTO prices. A textbook case of a stuck-in-the-middle product line.

Just my $.02


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

EL,

I think you are missing the other business reasons I mentioned above.



> Customers seeking a bespoke product are unlikely to be attracted to TD because it's not a bespoke shoe.


True, however TD may create an illusion that you can come close. Given a custom last I don't believe this personally but perhaps it will keep more EG clients in the fold.

I can also imagine devout EG clients doing a Top Drawer model and also going to bespoke for the more infrequent or special shoe.


----------



## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> EL,
> 
> I think you are missing the other business reasons I mentioned above.
> 
> ...


Well, this seems to offer neither a bespoke last, nor bespoke construction. Given that, I can only agree with Roger and EL72 in that it makes very little sense.

There might be some reasons to use it, but if there are, I have not found them.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Well, this seems to offer neither a bespoke last, nor bespoke construction.


I agree with you on that Matt, but I am trying to highlight some other areas of benefit from a purely business or brand viewpoint.

It does seem a bit odd to me that with the prior posts commenting positively on Top Drawer here and on SF that all of a sudden EG brings back Top Drawer and are then roundly criticized.

Sure the price is steep but there has to be a material increase for another level of construction. And to compare with bespoke which is often at a minimum $3,500 to start seems unfair. An extremely low U.S. dollar is probably exacerbating the high price.


----------



## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

The old Top Drawer shoes were indistinguishable from bespoke, constructionwise. Still not clear if these will be, but it sounds like not. If so, the price will be hard to justify to this community, to say nothing of the Japanese fetishists who really know their shoes. But maybe others are right that EG has a market in mind, and in that market the shoes will do well.


----------



## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> I agree with you on that Matt, but I am trying to highlight some other areas of benefit from a purely business or brand viewpoint.
> 
> It does seem a bit odd to me that with the prior posts commenting positively on Top Drawer here and on SF that all of a sudden EG brings back Top Drawer and are then roundly criticized.
> 
> Sure the price is steep but there has to be a material increase for another level of construction. And to compare with bespoke which is often at a minimum $3,500 to start seems unfair. An extremely low U.S. dollar is probably exacerbating the high price.


If the TD program is designed to be a flagship product for EG that will be made in limited quantities simply to showcase the shoemaking skills of its craftsmen and give them something challenging to work on once in a while, then fine. I have no doubt it can achieve those limited objectives.

If it is intended to be more serious revenue generator for EG, then they had better convince their many MTO customers (20% of their orders apparently) that it's worth paying about 60% more for TD shoes. If this thread is any indication, few people seem convinced that the TD premium is compelling at this point. That's all I'm trying to say.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> The old Top Drawer shoes were indistinguishable from bespoke, constructionwise.


If that's true then $1,500 is reasonable, especially if you fit an EG last well. The 202 last is a very good fit on my feet.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> If this thread is any indication, few people seem convinced that the TD premium is compelling at this point.


Perhaps but we may not be representative of the 20% MTO client list. Some of us are known "shoe fetishists" and have already traveled the bespoke route.

I would wager that EG is going down this road since they got feedback when Top Drawer was discontinued to bring it back. In that case, it may be a simple matter of keeping the customer happy.


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

A Harris said:


> .......Who knows more about pricing and selling shoes, Hilary Freeman or you? You don't approve of the move they've made, fine. But why share such a negative opinion here, in a thread meant to introduce these shoes. Of what possible benefit is it to anyone??


Dear Mr. Harris,

While I have no direct opinion on the issue at hand since I am still learning and exploring the world of Edward Green MTO shoes, none the less, the idea behind your comment to Roger is somewhat troublesome in its basic concept.

Your approach towards his "negative views" appear to be taken from point of view that we are to introduce and indorse only, or "get the company message out" if you will.

This, being a consumer based discussion group, any such discussion with all the concerns or view point brought forth by Roger and others can only highlight all the pros and cons and allow us, the buyer, to make a more informed choice, This is hardly chump change we are speaking about putting down for a pair of shoes. We are more the consumer advocate than the PR division as it were.

While it is true that I can be the first to gloat about those firms that I feel are worthy, I would never alter my words from what I truly felt and would certainly never take a "company line" approach or allow anyone to approve my text.

There is no doubt that Edward Green is going through some teething problems as they redefine themselves in the "Post Tony era", as RJman has mentioned, I too have had several e mails left unanswered and have failed to complete an order for a new pair of MTO shoes as a result.

While you may not agree with his delivery, the concept of pointing out the new level of choices at that new cost level and the perceived value added or lack thereof only serve to help to better equip the forum with all the options before proceeding down a given route.

We are here to share and learn from each others successes and failures, not distribute the company message.

If I am mistaken in my interpretation of your remarks,
I apologize in advance.


----------



## minimal (Dec 10, 2004)

I wanted to add one thing about potential clients: there are many people out there for whom the available lasts are a perfect (or good enough) fit. And there are also those out there who, while they have an appreciation for the finest shoes, do *not* appreciate the bespoke process. They don't want to take the time getting measured, fit, lasted, whatever; they want to point to a shoe and say "that one, with these options, ship it to me".

I suspect that, though it pains us, there are many people like this. I just read over on LL about how an owner of a new golf course ordered 50 pair bespoke shoes for his course's membership, just like that. And these were fully handmade to what I suspect were standard sizes. I.e. to bespoke quality but without the fitting process.

In fact, those who enjoy the bespoke process but can rarely afford it are probably are fewer in number than those who can easily afford it but are not interested.


----------



## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

EL72 said:


> I don't know Hilary Freeman or the other instances Roger is referring to but as someone who observes and analyzes business strategies for a living, I have to admit that bringing back a program that was discontinued, for the reasons cited by medwards, as a response to losing Tony G's bespoke services seems like the type of solution that was written on the back of a cocktail napkin.
> 
> Overheard at EG meeting:
> 
> ...


I see your point, but it seems EG has little to lose in this venture. There should be extremely minimal investment in the program...really, just some literature and a very tiny amount in materials (I would imagine). Training investment should be minimal or nothing, and there should be no need for special/specialized staff. Therefore, why not give it a go?

In addition, these shoes cost North Americans less money than going the European bespoke route. While, of course, they aren't bespoke, they do allow for the flexibility of designing a bespoke shoe without the hassel of fittings, chancing a poor fit (and the requisite redesign), and all the expense.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Well taught, teacher! Edward Green has absolutely nothing to lose. There is virtually no initial investment and no shoes are made unless ordered. On the other hand, there is an association with very high quality; they offer a service that is not offered by John Lobb nor Gaziano & Girling; they may pick up customers who do not want bespoke because of cost, perceived need, or waiting times, and any shoes they do sell will add to their bottom line. I see little risk and much potential gain. I would have thought that members of this Forum would want to encourage companies like EG to experiment with such undertakings rather than try to damper them.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

As for cost, I would surmise that if one walked into the _John Lobb de Paris _store and asked to have one of their Prestrige models recrafted to incorporate major design changes, enhance the sole to augment a fiddle back, redo the heel, and embed one's initials on the underside of the shoe, the cost would be at least as much -- if not substantially more -- than the differential between JL dP's Prestige line and this Top Drawer approach. :icon_smile_big:


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> In fact, those who enjoy the bespoke process but can rarely afford it are probably are fewer in number than those who can easily afford it but are not interested.


Good point.



> I would surmise that if one walked into the _John Lobb de Paris _store and asked to have one of their Prestrige models recrafted to incorporate major design changes, enhance the sole to augment a fiddle back, redo the heel, and embed one's initials on the underside of the shoe, the cost would be at least as much -- if not substantially more -- than the differential between JL dP's Prestige line and this Top Drawer approach.


Another excellent point.


----------



## MarkusH (Dec 10, 2004)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> As for cost, I would surmise that if one walked into the _John Lobb de Paris _store and asked to have one of their Prestrige models recrafted to incorporate major design changes, enhance the sole to augment a fiddle back, redo the heel, and embed one's initials on the underside of the shoe, the cost would be at least as much -- if not substantially more -- than the differential between JL dP's Prestige line and this Top Drawer approach. :icon_smile_big:


But who on earth would do that?


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> But who on earth would do that?


I can think of several people...


----------



## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> As for cost, I would surmise that if one walked into the _John Lobb de Paris _store and asked to have one of their Prestrige models recrafted to incorporate major design changes, enhance the sole to augment a fiddle back, redo the heel, and embed one's initials on the underside of the shoe, the cost would be at least as much -- if not substantially more -- than the differential between JL dP's Prestige line and this Top Drawer approach. :icon_smile_big:


Perhaps there is a clue in there somewhere about the viability of such an enterprise beyond servicing the idiosyncratic requests of a few shoe aficionados.


----------



## EL72 (May 25, 2005)

Teacher said:


> I see your point, but it seems EG has little to lose in this venture. There should be extremely minimal investment in the program...really, just some literature and a very tiny amount in materials (I would imagine). Training investment should be minimal or nothing, and there should be no need for special/specialized staff. Therefore, why not give it a go?


What you are saying is indeed true and in no way contradicts my earlier post. In fact, the low level of risk you highlight also reflects the relatively low upside potential of this venture. Businesses shouldn't launch new products because they have little to lose but rather because they have much to gain.

I am not trying to disparage EG or its managers and wish them well in this venture. My only point is that for this program to be successful, I believe EG need to articulate the value proposition relative to MTO shoes in a more compelling manner to justify the premium. And if I was them, I would significantly cut back on the customization options in MTO in order to do that.


----------



## harrybee (Jul 17, 2006)

*top drawer makes Japanese debut*

https://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=


----------



## Teacher (Mar 14, 2005)

EL72 said:


> What you are saying is indeed true and in no way contradicts my earlier post. In fact, the low level of risk you highlight also reflects the relatively low upside potential of this venture. Businesses shouldn't launch new products because they have little to lose but rather because they have much to gain.
> 
> I am not trying to disparage EG or its managers and wish them well in this venture. My only point is that for this program to be successful, I believe EG need to articulate the value proposition relative to MTO shoes in a more compelling manner to justify the premium. And if I was them, I would significantly cut back on the customization options in MTO in order to do that.


Ah, I see your point. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, they certainly should create a very definite distinction among the three levels they offer.


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> Well taught, teacher! Edward Green has absolutely nothing to lose. There is virtually no initial investment and no shoes are made unless ordered. On the other hand, there is an association with very high quality; they offer a service that is not offered by John Lobb nor Gaziano & Girling; they may pick up customers who do not want bespoke because of cost, perceived need, or waiting times, and any shoes they do sell will add to their bottom line. I see little risk and much potential gain. I would have thought that members of this Forum would want to encourage companies like EG to experiment with such undertakings rather than try to damper them.


Perhaps if you were to reread the previous posts you would see that no one is really trying to put a damper on this undertaking. What I and some others have articulated, is that, although a higher-level of EG shoe would indeed be desirable to most forumers, the price suggested is out of line for the enhancements proposed. What I would like to see from EG is such a program with a lower price--one that would, at least in my mind, be commensurate with the added value of these enhancements.

In your comparison with John Lobb, you have assumed that this company would have to actually do something to the sole of their Prestige Line shoes to have the beveled waist and hint of fiddleback that we may see in the EG TD shoes. This really isn't true, as that (waist enhancement) is probably the main difference now between JLobb Prestige Line shoes and EG shoes. Since most buyers will be little interested, I believe, in the other options proposed (like one's initials in the nail pattern), I suspect that an EG TD shoe will, for most buyers, resemble a current JLobb Prestige Line shoe. This is why I felt that pricing the new EG line to compete with the Lobbs would have been wiser.

I also believe that it is not really accurate to suggest that "there is virtually no initial investment." Whereas this investment may be relatively small when compared with normal operating costs, it is definitely not trivial. To begin with, there has been staff time necessary in the consultation and planning phases. This time has cost money, and could have been spent instead on proven money-making activities for the company. Then there's the cost of launching the program. Again, more staff time, more money out. As part of the product launch, new brochures will need preparation and production. Let me tell you from personal experience that full-color brochures with high-definition photographic content are very expensive. There will be a design costs and very high production costs. (This accounts for the reluctance of companies like EG and C&J to send out their full-color multi-page brochure unless they feel the customer won't settle for either the online catalog or the large one-page version that EG has made available.) Spreading the word costs more than most people realize, but companies absolutely have to do it for there to be any chance that a project will be a financial success.


----------



## A Harris (Jun 25, 2003)

> While you may not agree with his delivery, the concept of pointing out the new level of choices at that new cost level and the perceived value added or lack thereof only serve to help to better equip the forum with all the options before proceeding down a given route.


You make a good point, one I agree with. If the EG top drawer shoes turn out in the end to be a relatively poor value, then there is no reason that should not be discussed here, in a CIVIL manner. But at this point it is not at all clear what exactly the top drawer line upgrades are, especially re construction. I would daresay most of us (including Roger?) have not even laid eyes on the shoes yet! So at least until then, (and even then) it rubs me the wrong way to see harsh judgements being pronounced against the line, in personal terms. There seem to be a lot of shoe theorists here, and I am simply asking that there be some simple restraint be excercised along with the theorizing - in line with the common courtesy and respect due such venerable companies. That is all.



> although a higher-level of EG shoe would indeed be desirable to most forumers, the price suggested is out of line for the enhancements proposed.


This is what I'm talking about. How about tempering your statements a little?? We get it, you think they are too expensive. How about just excercising your right as a customer and not buying them, instead of posturing yourself as some sort of arbiter of shoe pricing?? BTW, have you even seen them yet?


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Roger said:


> Perhaps if you were to reread the previous posts you would see that no one is really trying to put a damper on this undertaking. What I and some others have articulated, is that, although a higher-level of EG shoe would indeed be desirable to most forumers, the price suggested is out of line for the enhancements proposed. What I would like to see from EG is such a program with a lower price--one that would, at least in my mind, be commensurate with the added value of these enhancements.


I find it hard to evaluate how "out of line" the price of these enhancements really are without seeing the shoes, but I would note from medwards' postings above that the real value -- and the overwhelming enhancement -- is the ability to change the pattern on one's shoe. This ability to personalize the shoe's style and detail would seem significant to me and I would think it would bear a substantial cost for Edward Green.



> In your comparison with John Lobb, you have assumed that this company would have to actually do something to the sole of their Prestige Line shoes to have the beveled waist and hint of fiddleback that we may see in the EG TD shoes. This really isn't true, as that (waist enhancement) is probably the main difference now between JLobb Prestige Line shoes and EG shoes. Since most buyers will be little interested, I believe, in the other options proposed (like one's initials in the nail pattern), I suspect that an EG TD shoe will, for most buyers, resemble a current JLobb Prestige Line shoe. This is why I felt that pricing the new EG line to compete with the Lobbs would have been wiser.


I cannot compare these new Edward Green shoes with John Lobb Prestige shoes without having seen the former. But I will tell you that the distinctions at this level are one's of degree. There are some on this forum who fail to see the distinctions between JL's Prestige and Classic lines as worth the price. Moreover, even without the TD line, I, for one, find Edward Green shoes to be superior to comparable John Lobb models, but reasonable men differ. Please explain to me why John Lobb bespoke shoes cost well over a thousand pounds more than Cleverley's.



> I also believe that it is not really accurate to suggest that "there is virtually no initial investment." Whereas this investment may be relatively small when compared with normal operating costs, it is definitely not trivial. To begin with, there has been staff time necessary in the consultation and planning phases. This time has cost money, and could have been spent instead on proven money-making activities for the company. Then there's the cost of launching the program. Again, more staff time, more money out. As part of the product launch, new brochures will need preparation and production. Let me tell you from personal experience that full-color brochures with high-definition photographic content are very expensive. There will be a design costs and very high production costs. (This accounts for the reluctance of companies like EG and C&J to send out their full-color multi-page brochure unless they feel the customer won't settle for either the online catalog or the large one-page version that EG has made available.) Spreading the word costs more than most people realize, but companies absolutely have to do it for there to be any chance that a project will be a financial success.


Time is indeed money and there may well be additional costs, though the initial description of this program appears rather cost-neutral. But if you are right and there are additional expoenses, one assumes that there are only two ways to compensate for this -- through the price and quantity sold of these new TD shoes or through raising the costs of other EG products. So if you are right, one reason the price for TD models may be so high is to cover these expenses..but if that's the case I simply do not see how to accomplish your goal of a less expensive shoe.

In the end, we each make our own choices. I will seriously look into the Edward Green Top Drawer option. I'll let you know what decision I eventually make. In the meantime, I'm thinking about those design changes I might suggest to make a truly unique and wonderful shoe.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> I suspect that an EG TD shoe will, for most buyers, resemble a current JLobb Prestige Line shoe


Judging from Manton's comments, it seems the construction is a bit better than Prestige.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Time is indeed money and there may well be additional costs, though the initial description of this program appears rather cost-neutral.


??? How can you reconcile the comments about an extra challenge for the EG makers with little additional costs. It seems like a more costly process based on medwards remarks such as these:



> One of the challenges with high end products such as Edward Green shoes is that the distinctions as one adds refinements may seem rather marginal, but entail a fair amount of additional skill, labour and/or expense. I imagine one could look at this is in the reverse. One might be getting a shoe very much akin to bespoke in both design and quality with the exception of an individualized last.


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Apart from the, relatively few, people who have attended last weeks Washington trunk shows, nobody has seen the ‘Top Drawer’ range at all.

Like most people here, I haven’t seen any of the new shoes, therefore I have no idea whether or not the shoes on offer warrant the premium. Ultimately it’s for every customer to make up his mind. According to customer’s demand, the project will be a success or a failure.

Quite a number of consumer products (cars, hi-fi, watches, etc.) are offered in specially tuned and/or limited editions. Nothing wrong with that. I cannot understand why tempers flare over a product hardly anyone has seen.


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

Artisan Fan said:


> ??? How can you reconcile the comments about an extra challenge for the EG makers with little additional costs.


Ahhh. I see your point. Yes, I would assume that it would indeed take more time and money to actually make a top drawer shoe. What I meant was that aside from whatever planning time and new catalogues Edward Green might develop, there would not be start-up costs such as hiring new staff, retooling equipment, renting additional space. As I understand it from the conversation this far, Edward Green will be using its existing premises, staff, tools, and materials. And -- aside from whatever samples they make -- they will not incur the actual added expenses of a TD shoe until an order is placed for it...and presumably the price of that shoe will cover that cost.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> And -- aside from whatever samples they make -- they will not incur the actual added expenses of a TD shoe until an order is placed for it...and presumably the price of that shoe will cover that cost.


I see your point as well. This seems to favor offer TD shoes. Very minimal if any investment and the upside is extra revenue and profits and possibly enhanced brand intangibles.


----------



## Roger (Feb 18, 2005)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> And -- aside from whatever samples they make -- they will not incur the actual added expenses of a TD shoe until an order is placed for it....


Exactly right...except for a few thousand dollars in start-up costs--brochures, etc. :icon_smile_wink:


----------



## Mr. Chatterbox (May 1, 2005)

I don't know why you keep trying to make this a less appealing enterprise for Edward Green than they seem to believe it is. For the sake of argument, is it not possible that they would be redoing their catalogues anyway? I'd be shocked it this were not the case. They have a large number of new styles that are not in the current version and the catalogue has to be changed to eliminate the bespoke section that is now in it. 

But assuming there really are out-of-pocket start-up costs, a few thousand pounds would appear to be a fairly reasonable investment given the positioning and possible rewards this new program might bring. Besides, I would think that just the publicity they have gotten on this Forum would be worth a few bob! :icon_smile_big:


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

There is one difference between us armchair managers and Edward Green: relevant business information.

Edward Green has access to their own production costs, feedback from when they stopped Top Drawer, comments from current customers toward their shoes, feedback from various retailers, feedback from employed craftsman who may want a challenge, etc.


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

Mr. Chatterbox said:


> Ahhh. I see your point. Yes, I would assume that it would indeed take more time and money to actually make a top drawer shoe.


Yes, but EG is also compensated to the tune of a 50% or 60% premium over their regular-line shoes for the added production costs.


----------



## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

> Yes, but EG is also compensated to the tune of a 50% or 60% premium over their regular-line shoes for the added production costs.


This is my point as well...there may be a higher profit margin. Assuming some reasonable demand, it could be a good move for a return on investment.


----------



## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

I thought it may also be worthwhile to post some details on the Top Drawer program. Top Drawer is a line of shoes that EG believes approaches bespoke in quality and finishing but is made on a standard RTW last (though small tweaks to an existing EG last is allowed). There are NO limitations on styling - you can go ahead and modify an existing RTW design (as you may under the MTO program) or even design a completely new shoe based on your preferences.

Quite frankly, I think this program will be a success - you're getting a shoe that is at bespoke level quality on a standardized last for ~$1,700 (shoe trees are included). Thus, if the standard 888/82 etc. lasts fit one well, you're getting a pretty reasonable deal for the amount you pay.

I'm waiting to see how my Scafora's turn out (I should receive them in mid-April), but this is a very intriguing option.


----------



## iammatt (Sep 17, 2005)

Are these shoes going to be hand-welted like bespoke, or will they just incorporate "bespoke styling details"? If it is the first, then they are worth it, for the second I think that they are an overpriced joke.


----------



## NoVaguy (Oct 15, 2004)

i think when we're talking $1700 for calfskin shoes, "pretty reasonable deal for the amount you pay" is a tough concept to swallow...


----------



## meister (Oct 29, 2005)

*EGs*

Sounds like they are doing the same as the airlines. Giving you enhanced business class for nearly the price of first class.


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Given that there are few absolutes left, a more reasonable line of inquiry will be to compare this vs. Gaziano & Girling's new RTW line, as well as Lobb Paris RTW.

I agree, though-- $1,700 is a lot, especially if you don't get a perfect fit. For only 50% more (such a bargain!) one can get full bespoke.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

I spent an hour with Hilary Freeman this afternoon and will have a more detailed post in a couple of days but I think the top drawer shoes look excellent. Bevelled waists, hand finished edges and other details. 

Most interesting, she said they will make them on your EG bespoke last! That means, if you had a last made while Tony Gaziano was there, you can order a bespoke shoe that's partly machine made for half the price of bespoke. Frankly, the sample I saw looked every bit as good as the bespoke Cleverleys I was wearing.


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Damn. Tony had only partially completed my last when he split off, and the only pair made from it is not yet perfect. That would have been a good source for suede, rain shoes-- anything that didn't have to be of the very highest construction quality.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

*British GQ Article*

By the way, there is a short reference to the Top Drawer program in Nick Foulkes' Edward Green article in the March issue of British GQ.


----------



## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

iammatt said:


> Are these shoes going to be hand-welted like bespoke, or will they just incorporate "bespoke styling details"? If it is the first, then they are worth it, for the second I think that they are an overpriced joke.


The shoes are intended to be hand welted as custom shoes. I was very lukewarm on the TD concept at first, but came away very very impressed.

Panzer


----------



## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

meister said:


> Sounds like they are doing the same as the airlines. Giving you enhanced business class for nearly the price of first class.


Given that comparable British bespoke is 65% more expensive, I don't believe they're "nearly the price" as the full blown option


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

After standard EG clicking and closing, Top Drawer shoes have a leather fiddle inserted at the waist and the soles are hand shaped. The heel is higher and also hand shaped. The sole edge is spade shaped and jointed at the heel. They also get extra attention during finishing.


----------



## Panzeraxe (Jan 11, 2004)

Will said:


> After standard EG clicking and closing, Top Drawer shoes have a leather fiddle inserted at the waist and the soles are hand shaped. The heel is higher and also hand shaped. The sole edge is spade shaped and jointed at the heel. They also get extra attention during finishing.


I have also received a Top Drawer catalog that I will try and scan for members


----------



## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

Will said:


> After standard EG clicking and closing, Top Drawer shoes have a leather fiddle inserted at the waist and the soles are hand shaped. The heel is higher and also hand shaped. The sole edge is spade shaped and jointed at the heel. They also get extra attention during finishing.


Will, can you elaborate on the 'jointed at the heel' feature? All of my EGs have a diagonal join to the sole layer about an inch past the front edge of the heel. It's a very precise angle, seeming unique to EGs. Is it this or something else?


----------



## bystander (Jan 18, 2006)

harrybee said:


> https://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=


Enjoyed the picture; thank you!


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

well-kept said:


> Will, can you elaborate on the 'jointed at the heel' feature? All of my EGs have a diagonal join to the sole layer about an inch past the front edge of the heel. It's a very precise angle, seeming unique to EGs. Is it this or something else?


Bespoke shoe soles end at the heel, and the Top Drawers appear to do the same.


----------



## shoefan (Oct 30, 2003)

Will said:


> Bespoke shoe soles end at the heel, and the Top Drawers appear to do the same.


I don't believe this assertion is correct. Where one sees the 'cut' on EG shoes is the end of the welt, which is paired with the rand that wraps around the bottom of the heel. The sole on the EG, and the bespoke shoes I have seen made, are made with a one-piece sole on which the heel is built. The welt and the rand are the pieces of leather closest to the shoe's upper, between the sole and the upper.


----------



## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

shoefan said:


> I don't believe this assertion is correct. Where one sees the 'cut' on EG shoes is the end of the welt[/u[, which is paired with the rand that wraps around the bottom of the heel. The sole on the EG, and the bespoke shoes I have seen made, are made with a one-piece sole on which the heel is built. The welt and the rand are the pieces of leather closest to the shoe's upper, between the sole and the upper.




On my custom Lobbs and Cleveleys the sole layer extends from the front of the shoe to the back. I can't imagine it could do otherwise. What is different on the Lobbs is that the welt seems to end before the heel.

On my EGs, both the welt and sole extend the length of the shoe. BOTH have joins, the welt just above the front edge of the heel, the sole an inch behind the front edge.


----------



## shoefan (Oct 30, 2003)

well-kept said:


> On my custom Lobbs and Cleveleys the sole layer extends from the front of the shoe to the back. I can't imagine it could do otherwise. What is different on the Lobbs is that the welt seems to end before the heel.
> 
> On my EGs, both the welt and sole extend the length of the shoe. BOTH have joins, the welt just above the front edge of the heel, the sole an inch behind the front edge.


The welt must have at least one join, as it is a strip of leather about 3/4" wide that wraps around the outside of the shoe, so it has to end somewhere. If the welt is what AE calls a 360 degree welt, then it wraps all the way around the shoe, and the end meets the beginning somewhere. Most welted shoes have a heel breast to heel breast welt, which welt is joined to the rand on either side of the heel.

I cannot imagine why your Lobbs would have a join on the front of the sole. I've seen Lobbs being 'made,' and they have a single piece sole extending from the toe to the back of the heel. Lobb supply the makers the soles, which already have LOBB stamped in them.


----------



## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

shoefan said:


> The welt must have at least one join, as it is a strip of leather about 3/4" wide that wraps around the outside of the shoe, so it has to end somewhere. If the welt is what AE calls a 360 degree welt, then it wraps all the way around the shoe, and the end meets the beginning somewhere. Most welted shoes have a heel breast to heel breast welt, which welt is joined to the rand on either side of the heel.
> 
> I cannot imagine why your Lobbs would have a join on the front of the sole. I've seen Lobbs being 'made,' and they have a single piece sole extending from the toe to the back of the heel. Lobb supply the makers the soles, which already have LOBB stamped in them.


I didn't say the Lobbs had a join on the sole. I said exactly the opposite.

All of my Edward Greens - nine pair - have a diagonal splice on the sole layer about one inch behind the front edge of the heel. My question was whether this constituted the feature Will was refering to in the TD line. (And I still don't have the answer.)


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

The top drawers have a joint at the front of the heel that is clearly pictured on page three of the top drawer brochure. I believe panzeraxe posted images of the piece on styleforum if you care to look. I have no way to scan it where I am. 

The brochure states that the sole is "jointed where it abuts the heel."

I wrote incorrectly about the sole on my Cleverleys. There is a joint but it is a one piece sole with the heel atop it. Forgive me for I am far from home and bereft of research materials.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Will said:


> The top drawers have a joint at the front of the heel that is clearly pictured on page three of the top drawer brochure. I believe panzeraxe posted images of the piece on styleforum if you care to look.


Here is a link to TimelessRider's StyleForum posting of the Edward Green Top Drawer brochure.


----------



## shoefan (Oct 30, 2003)

Well-kept:

Sorry, I incorrectly applied your comments about EG to your Lobbs. I still don't know about the join on the EG soles -- my EG's don't have this, I don't understand why they would have this, and I don't recall having seen anything like this when I toured the Green manufacturing facility. FWIW, I thought you meant the front of the shoe when you wrote" 1'' behind the front edge."

Will:

In fact, if you read the brochure, it says "the sole *edge* is spade shaped and jointed where it abuts the heel." I believe this is simply an aesthetic feature of the top drawer shoes and the soles themselves are solid, one-piece soles -- though I certainly could be wrong. If you look at the pics of the shoes, the heel appears to extend a bit wider than the rest of the sole, so the 'joint' helps to draw attention to this feature. I don't know any reason why the sole itself would be jointed, and it would also lead the shoe to be much less water resistant, as the joint would provide an easy point of entry into the the insole.


----------



## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

shoefan said:


> Will:
> 
> In fact, if you read the brochure, it says "the sole *edge* is spade shaped and jointed where it abuts the heel." I believe this is simply an aesthetic feature of the top drawer shoes and the soles themselves are solid, one-piece soles -- though I certainly could be wrong. If you look at the pics of the shoes, the heel appears to extend a bit wider than the rest of the sole, so the 'joint' helps to draw attention to this feature. I don't know any reason why the sole itself would be jointed, and it would also lead the shoe to be much less water resistant, as the joint would provide an easy point of entry into the the insole.


See the middle left part of this picture from TimelessRider's scans:

Notice the line that continues the heel edge up to the top of the heel and how the beveling of the waist abruptly stops at that line? I think that that's what the brochure is referring to here. This is finishing feature that is found on some but not all English bespoke shoes with a beveled waist (some of my Cleverley shoes have it and some do not, for example); and, as far as I know, it is purely aesthetic.

See the pictures on centipede's website of the alpha prototype of G&G's RTW shoes for another example of this feature. My understanding is that actual production of RTW G&G shoes will not have it, which is unfortunate.

On the whole, I think that the waist treatment on the EG Top Drawer sample that I saw was slightly inferior to the waist treatment on the G&G RTW samples that I have seen and superior to the waist treatment of JL Paris Prestige line shoes. The fineness of the stitching used to close the uppers on the EG TD shoes is outstanding, probably better than either JL Paris or G&G, and, as I have written, I really like the heel joints. The heel is slightly pitched, which is good, but it could stand being about 1/8" higher and smaller in size. All in all, I was impressed by the TD sample, but at those prices, I doubt that I will be buying unless they are made on my last that Tony created.


----------



## well-kept (May 6, 2006)

shoefan said:


> I still don't know about the join on the EG soles -- my EG's don't have this, I don't understand why they would have this, and I don't recall having seen anything like this when I toured the Green manufacturing facility.


I'm intrigued. What age and style are your EGs? When was your factory tour? Most of my EGs are a bit older, some quite a bit. Perhaps their manufacturing methods have changed. And as I looked more closely, of my nine pair, eight have the diagonal splice. My Banburys seem not to.

Anyone else weigh in on this?

And thank you Will and J.C. for explicating the sole/heel join on the TD.


----------



## RJman (Nov 11, 2003)

Dumm question -- were the trees on the TD models hinged or sprung?


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

RJman said:


> Dumm question -- were the trees on the TD models hinged or sprung?


The pair I saw in New York had standard EG trees in them.


----------



## bob-k (Oct 9, 2006)

Will said:


> Most interesting, she said they will make them on your EG bespoke last! That means, if you had a last made while Tony Gaziano was there, you can order a bespoke shoe that's partly machine made for half the price of bespoke. Frankly, the sample I saw looked every bit as good as the bespoke Cleverleys I was wearing.


I asked Tony about this last year after Ms. Freeman sent that letter to EG customers stating that they would have access to Tony's bespoke lasts after he left the company. Tony's opinion seemed to be that it would be inappropriate to attempt to make a machine-made shoe using a bespoke last. For example, he said, it is possible to create a much snugger, more precise fit around the last by hand than by machine (please forgive my crude explanation, but I'm no expert). As a result, he said, one should not expect shoes created by hand and by machine from same last to fit the same.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

Well he would say that, wouldn't he. 

I'll let you know.


----------



## william76 (Aug 11, 2006)

Will said:


> Well he would say that, wouldn't he.
> 
> I'll let you know.


Yep. If the Top Drawer thing works out as intended then it could probably put a dent in Tony's business. I suspect that a large part of his clientele was built while at EG.


----------



## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Tony is certainly right that TD with a bespoke last cannot replicate the waist treatment of a true handmade bespoke shoe. How this combination of bespoke last and factory make will effect fit, however, I think remains anyone's guess. Someone needs to try this and make a report.

I am interested, but one question (for me) remains to be answered. Tony made me a last at EG. Since then, through G&G, I have asked him to modify it. This he has done, and new pairs fit better. So does EG only have the rights to use the "original" last, assuming Tony made a new one? If Tony only modified the old one, could he decline to make it available to EG, on the grounds that the modifactions (and added value) were made under G&G auspices, and thus not owned by EG?


----------



## Puffdaddy (Dec 21, 2006)

Chris Rimby said:


> Yep. If the Top Drawer thing works out as intended then it could probably put a dent in Tony's business. I suspect that a large part of his clientele was built while at EG.


Candidly, I think G&G has all the business they can handle at the moment, but I certainly see your point.

They are true artisans and, as I understand it, 100% self-financed.

In my opinion, there's probably already too much demand as it is!!!!


----------



## william76 (Aug 11, 2006)

Puffdaddy said:


> Candidly, I think G&G has all the business they can handle at the moment, but I certainly see your point.
> 
> They are true artisans and, as I understand it, 100% self-financed.
> 
> In my opinion, there's probably already too much demand as it is!!!!


Good! I wish them all the best and plan to order some G&G myself once they get around to coming to Atlanta.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

manton said:


> Tony is certainly right that TD with a bespoke last cannot replicate the waist treatment of a true handmade bespoke shoe. How this combination of bespoke last and factory make will effect fit, however, I think remains anyone's guess. Someone needs to try this and make a report.
> 
> I am interested, but one question (for me) remains to be answered. Tony made me a last at EG. Since then, through G&G, I have asked him to modify it. This he has done, and new pairs fit better. So does EG only have the rights to use the "original" last, assuming Tony made a new one? If Tony only modified the old one, could he decline to make it available to EG, on the grounds that the modifactions (and added value) were made under G&G auspices, and thus not owned by EG?


Lasts made while Tony was at EG are, according to Hilary, the property of the customer. She said she wouldn't sell them to him on the grounds that she didn't own them, so she let him have them unless the customer objected.

If Tony has modified a last he'll certainly have an opinion about letting EG use it and I'll be interested to hear if he takes the same point of view.


----------



## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

I dropped by the Beverly Hills Ralph Lauren today to say hello to Hillary, and get a look at the Top Drawer sample (a black oxford on the 808 last made for their Japanese representative). It looked good, but not 850 UKP good. I also confirmed that the shoe is Goodyear- (machine-) welted. When I asked how it compared to John Lobb Paris, much to my surprise, Hillary said she had not seen a JLP shoe up close. I would think they'd at least scope out their competition. It was a bit of a disappointment after hearing all the hype about it.

--Andre


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Andre Yew said:


> When I asked how it compared to John Lobb Paris, much to my surprise, Hillary said she had not seen a JLP shoe up close.


I think that was a bit of an unfair question, and Hilary has just given a diplomatic answer. What is she supposed to say? Praise the competition and put her own product down, or praise EG over the hill ("you won't get a better shoe anywhere!") making her look like a second-hand car salesman?

I haven't seen a Top Drawer sample yet, and therefore have no opinion; but these questions ("is a Mercedes better than a BMW?") have to be answered by each individual with their credit card.


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Will said:


> Lasts made while Tony was at EG are, according to Hilary, the property of the customer. She said she wouldn't sell them to him on the grounds that she didn't own them, so she let him have them unless the customer objected.
> 
> If Tony has modified a last he'll certainly have an opinion about letting EG use it and I'll be interested to hear if he takes the same point of view.


Perhaps one could commission a revision of the older last. Finding the right person to do it would be a difficult thing for most, but an investment that could pay for itself with not too many pairs-- provided that the fit of bespoke is substantially better than an available standard size, of course.


----------



## Andre Yew (Sep 2, 2005)

bengal-stripe said:


> I think that was a bit of an unfair question, and Hilary has just given a diplomatic answer. What is she supposed to say? Praise the competition and put her own product down, or praise EG over the hill ("you won't get a better shoe anywhere!") making her look like a second-hand car salesman?


And I think this is an unfair interpretation of my motivations. Had she seen JLP shoes, a diplomatic answer might have been, "JLP makes very fine shoes, and their workmanship looks very good." I was expressing surprise at the fact that she's never seen in person one of her main competitor's products, especially when she's about to introduce a more expensive version that has many superficial similarities.

--Andre


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

Andre Yew said:


> And I think this is an unfair interpretation of my motivations.


On my part, there was no speculation about motivation at all.

Hilary has just given the standard answer. Just as actors "never read reviews" (of course they do, their own and their colleagues), trade people will "never know what the competition is doing". This avoids having to discuss the firm in question and gives yourself the air that you are miles above the pettiness of scrambling for your place in the pecking order. Particular in the case of EG and JL, where there probably, is still bad blood and resentment left between the two firms.

Go to firm X on Savile Row and ask about firm Y, you'll get the same answer: "Haven't seen their work."

By the way EG's 'topdrawer' (rumoured to be between 800-850 GBP, shoe trees included) is not more expensive as JL 'made-to-order' (premium 25%) and has the advantage of flexibility which JL does not have (a certain model comes on a particular last, only E and EE widths, maybe a few lasts are available in D).


----------



## Leather man (Mar 11, 2007)

*EG Top Drawer*

when I was on the phone to EGs Jermyn Street shop last week I asked whether their bespoke service was going to be reintroduced and they said not. Not that I am in the market for shoes at such a price but what was of interest was that they feel their RTW shoes and MTO shoes are of such good quality that there is little to be gained by going bespoke unless a customer does have very difficult feet to fit. They say the quality of calf leather they use is the same as the bespoke makers use.:icon_smile:

I have three pairs of EGs and as you guys will know they are exquisite in every way - with the options available with the MTO shoes ( mind boggling!) it is hard to see how much more can be done to the shoes without doing something really wacky - which of course some people may want to go for.

Leather man


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

bengal-stripe said:


> By the way EG's 'topdrawer' (rumoured to be between 800-850 GBP, shoe trees included) is not more expensive as JL 'made-to-order' (premium 25%) and has the advantage of flexibility which JL does not have (a certain model comes on a particular last, only E and EE widths, maybe a few lasts are available in D).


Yes, pure coincidence that the pricing is roughly the same as JLs.


----------



## manton (Jul 26, 2003)

Will said:


> Yes, pure coincidence that the pricing is roughly the same as JLs.


Must be.


----------



## udeshi (Sep 29, 2005)

I have handmade bespoke shoes, made on wooden lasts, about a dozen or so.

Being a creature of habit, 4 pairs of identical chelseas, just in different colours, 4 pairs of loafers etc. I decided to use a production version of my own last, to see if I could get my half a dozen black oxfords without blowing the bank. I need them for work, and don't have the time during the week to polish them all up, plus a few will sit in New York.

I gave the last to our chaps who make our RTW, so the left and right are identical, and admittedly, there is less fiddling, and the waist treatment is not the same, it can't be, but I am hard pressed to find, or more specifically, feel, a difference in fit. The detailing is similar - excluding the waist treatment, I don't want any special toe cap designs, so that is not an issue. Maybe I have pretty standard feet or my RTW is not bad. So in answer to Manton's question, if you can live without a few of the details, and have vaguely normal feet, you should be ok with the move from bespoke to RTW on your bespoke last. Are the details worth the premium, only you can answer that.


----------



## healinginfluence (Mar 1, 2006)

udeshi said:


> I have handmade bespoke shoes, made on wooden lasts, about a dozen or so.
> 
> Being a creature of habit, 4 pairs of identical chelseas, just in different colours, 4 pairs of loafers etc. I decided to use a production version of my own last, to see if I could get my half a dozen black oxfords without blowing the bank. I need them for work, and don't have the time during the week to polish them all up, plus a few will sit in New York.
> 
> I gave the last to our chaps who make our RTW, so the left and right are identical, and admittedly, there is less fiddling, and the waist treatment is not the same, it can't be, but I am hard pressed to find, or more specifically, feel, a difference in fit. The detailing is similar - excluding the waist treatment, I don't want any special toe cap designs, so that is not an issue. Maybe I have pretty standard feet or my RTW is not bad. So in answer to Manton's question, if you can live without a few of the details, and have vaguely normal feet, you should be ok with the move from bespoke to RTW on your bespoke last. Are the details worth the premium, only you can answer that.


May I ask who made your bespoke shoes? I'm also curious about how you have the last. I have three pair of bespoke John Lobb (London) shoes but JL has my last.


----------



## Will (Jun 15, 2004)

udeshi said:


> I gave the last to our chaps who make our RTW, so the left and right are identical, and admittedly, there is less fiddling, and the waist treatment is not the same, it can't be, but I am hard pressed to find, or more specifically, feel, a difference in fit. The detailing is similar - excluding the waist treatment, I don't want any special toe cap designs, so that is not an issue. Maybe I have pretty standard feet or my RTW is not bad. So in answer to Manton's question, if you can live without a few of the details, and have vaguely normal feet, you should be ok with the move from bespoke to RTW on your bespoke last. Are the details worth the premium, only you can answer that.


That's exactly my expectation for TD EGs made on my last. I'm going to try a pair, as soon as people stop visiting San Francisco and selling me other stuff.


----------



## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

If only Tony had got my last right before starting his own firm.


----------



## bengal-stripe (May 10, 2003)

healinginfluence said:


> May I ask who made your bespoke shoes? I'm also curious about how you have the last. I have three pair of bespoke John Lobb (London) shoes but JL has my last.


I believe, these people here can make you a bespoke last, taking the measurements electronically from an existing, well-fitting pair of shoes:
https://www.springline.net/index.html


----------



## udeshi (Sep 29, 2005)

A good friend of mine is a last maker, and I make his suits, so we are less formal on the last ownership question. Without poking the beehive, this question has already been beaten to death in a previous thread, some shoemakers will not give you the last, and so what I have done is not possible.

As for who makes them, the one perk of being in the trade is that you get to know a few people, and who makes what for whom, and who actually knows what they are doing. I will end this conversation by saying I am very happy with my shoes, bespoke and RTW.

The reason for my post was to answer Manton's question.


----------

