# In Praise of Charles Tyrwhitt



## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Charles Tyrwhitt has been a long time sponsor of this website and I have had excellent luck with their ready-to-wear! I especially like their check dress shirts.

I just got my second sport jacket from them:









What I like is the fit is perfect, the plaid pattern is lined up, it comes with working sleeve buttons.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Adding two more photos:


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## Salieri (Jun 18, 2009)

I came very close to buying that very same jacket. Lovely check to it!


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## Preu Pummel (Feb 5, 2008)

Looks good. I purchased one super-cheap-sale suit from them 2+ years ago. Fabulous! It helps that it fits my body perfectly, the arms the right length so the surgeon's cuffs didn't have to be edited. For the small amount I paid in 2009, it was a steal. Worth thrice what I paid, no doubt.

Love their shirts, too, but only buy when they are $40 a piece unless it is a special shirt. Have their farthing and penny cufflinks, which are also stylish.


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## MicTester (Oct 8, 2009)

I agree about CT. I used to patronize them all the time. But their customer service of late has been hit or miss. So I have backed off a little and placed the last order with T M Lewin. Just as a protest. 

But I agree that CT delivers excellent value.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Andy: Working sleeve buttons have actually been a deal breaker for me. Sure, you may get customer service to give you the measurement from the shoulder seam to cuff. However, that's not always reliable as some shoulders are more built up than others. Also difficult as hell to alter if it needs more than 3/8 of an inch taken in or let out. I'd generally prefer it if all these companies would just leave them ready to alter with buttons and leave the cost (and preference) of working sleeves to us.


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## bobharley (Mar 28, 2011)

Their quality and customer service is atrocious. I can't understand why anyone buys from them. Obviously Andy has to support them because they are a sponsor, but if he had the financial freedom not to, my guess is he wouldn't buy anything from them. Unfortunately, too many people reading this forum will think that Andy is being impartial, but the situation makes him anything but.


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

Ouch.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

bobharley said:


> Their quality and customer service is atrocious. I can't understand why anyone buys from them. Obviously Andy has to support them because they are a sponsor, but if he had the financial freedom not to, my guess is he wouldn't buy anything from them. Unfortunately, too many people reading this forum will think that Andy is being impartial, but the situation makes him anything but.


Why would you assume that people would think Andy is impartial when he mentions the sponsorship in the post? You were able to pick up on it.

Also, my take on CT: yuck


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## Grayson (Feb 29, 2008)

My customer service experience with Charles Tyrwhitt has been exemplary. The functionality of their web-store, the selection, the fabrics, the fit, the value, even the order acknowledgements and their shipping packages... all are head and shoulders above similar retailers.

Just sayin'.


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## wj_johnson (Jul 24, 2011)

I love Charles Tyrwhitt, the service and quality is very good, especially when I can catch it on sale.


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## Richard Minks (Mar 1, 2010)

My experience is different. When they were peddling their wares in the FTbefore they had a store in Manhattan, I order a few shirts and the construction was excellent. Since then quality has slipped a bit. I used to catch them on sale, especially for white shirts. Now I am fully stocked, I have found better quality and construction in shirting. 

With regards to suiting, I have been curious but for the price point in NY, there are custom tailors I visit that are just a better value overall.

To Andy, thank you for all that you have done, and to the ones that doubt his sincerity, let's just relax and let the products speak for themselves. We are all adults....I hope.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

bobharley said:


> Their quality and customer service is atrocious. I can't understand why anyone buys from them. Obviously Andy has to support them because they are a sponsor, but if he had the financial freedom not to, my guess is he wouldn't buy anything from them. Unfortunately, too many people reading this forum will think that Andy is being impartial, but the situation makes him anything but.


bobharley:

Of course I'm very supportive of all the merchants who help keep this website a float, but I personally chose to get this jacket and paid for it myself based on a prior jacket I got from them. And I really like their shirt patterns, but also have been in a friendly argument with the owner about not having gauntlet buttons on their shirt sleeves!


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

Even if Andy was 'plugging the sponsors' (which I see from his post above he was not...) I would think it a small price to pay (literally) for this excellent website and forum. We can all use our common sense when it comes to purchases. 

As for CT suitings, I have often been attracted to the design (and price) of their suits/jackets but have always resisted at the last moment due to the disappointing quality of the fabrics....dull colour and not so nice to the touch. Hopefully Andy's jacket is an exception to this.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

bobharley said:


> Their quality and customer service is atrocious. I can't understand why anyone buys from them. Obviously Andy has to support them because they are a sponsor, but if he had the financial freedom not to, my guess is he wouldn't buy anything from them. Unfortunately, too many people reading this forum will think that Andy is being impartial, but the situation makes him anything but.


This site has many sponsors. How many of them do you see Andy 'plugging'? I happen to like CT for what they are. I buy things from them knowing they're not the highest end product available, but they are a good value for the money. As for the customer service, mine has been fantastic.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Andy said:


> bobharley:
> 
> Of course I'm very supportive of all the merchants who help keep this website a float, but I personally chose to get this jacket and paid for it myself based on a prior jacket I got from them. And I really like their shirt patterns, but also have been in a friendly argument with the owner about not having gauntlet buttons on their shirt sleeves!


 It's a traditional British detail not to have gauntlet buttons. Brooks Brothers makes their shirts without them too. I like it.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

When I first came across Tyrwhitt (via unsolicited catalogs) in the early 2000s, I thought they were trying to be a poor man's Thomas Pink. Note that the name is fake, and I suspect designed to appeal to anglophile Americans who are suckers for all things British. 

But having purchased a few shirts and one pair of shoes from Tyrwhitt, I think it's a decent retailer. Prices are very fair for the quality, especially given the frequent sales. And the shoes were pretty good- I wouldn't pay full price, but they were serviceable although a full step below AE quality. 

I wonder how people view Tyrwhitt in the U.K.- is it the Joseph A. Bank of Britain?


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

jeffdeist said:


> Note that the name is fake


The company owner says his full name is Nicholas Charles Tyrwhitt Wheeler. So, can you explain how that is "fake?"


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

By the way, I applaud the classy way Andy has responded to criticism. Reminds me of the "Saladgate" incident from a while back...


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Racer said:


> The company owner says his full name is Nicholas Charles Tyrwhitt Wheeler. So, can you explain how that is "fake?"


Right! And he e-mails me! (although that's not a true condition of not being fake!!) :icon_smile:


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## MicTester (Oct 8, 2009)

Jovan said:


> It's a traditional British detail not to have gauntlet buttons. Brooks Brothers makes their shirts without them too. I like it.


I agree. If my tailor places them on my shirt, I would infer he is lazy and would not want to go back again. They may be required on RTW shirts, but not having them on a shirt is nothing but a shirt wanting to come across as tailored. Not an automatic weakness.


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## jeffdeist (Feb 7, 2006)

Racer said:


> The company owner says his full name is Nicholas Charles Tyrwhitt Wheeler. So, can you explain how that is "fake?"


Well there is nobody named "Charles Tyrwhitt." He didn't name his company "Nick Wheeler." This is undoubtedly for marketing purposes, as "Charles Tyrwhitt" sounds very British and venerable.

As I said, I think the company is pretty good and I wish them the best. I don't begrudge them naming or marketing the company however they wish.


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## MicTester (Oct 8, 2009)

jeffdeist said:


> Well there is nobody named "Charles Tyrwhitt." He didn't name his company "Nick Wheeler." This is undoubtedly for marketing purposes, as "Charles Tyrwhitt" sounds very British and venerable.


Tyrwhitt is an old family name and he chose his second and third names for the business because "I thought it sounded better than Nick Wheeler. Nobody can pronounce it" - it's 'Tirritt' - "and nobody can spell it, which in the internet age is a shame." Mr Wheeler is, he admits, probably better known as Mr Chris Rucker, his wife being the entrepreneur of that name behind The White Company, the home furnishings business. Their former home in Shropshire has featured in several publicity shoots.

Source: https://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article2599688.ece


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## defygravity (May 4, 2011)

One small bone to pick with them:

They don't reimburse VAT for non-EU customers.

Other competing companies like TM Lewin do, and as a result they get my business. Pretty much every time. Seems a hefty price for CT to pay for a 15% discount, which legally shouldn't be going to them anyway.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

defygravity said:


> One small bone to pick with them:
> 
> They don't reimburse VAT for non-EU customers.
> 
> Other competing companies like TM Lewin do, and as a result they get my business. Pretty much every time. Seems a hefty price for CT to pay for a 15% discount, which legally shouldn't be going to them anyway.


Do you mean they add english VAT to sales where they themselves send the goods out of the EU?


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## Racer (Apr 16, 2010)

Bjorn said:


> Do you mean they add english VAT to sales where they themselves send the goods out of the EU?


CT maintains a UK website. If you live in the US and you buy from that website, you pay the same price a UK resident pays, which includes VAT.

CT maintains a US website. If you live in the US and you buy from that site, you pay their US price, which does not include VAT.

Some people think this is unfair. There is another thread dedicated to their complaints.


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## ajo (Oct 22, 2007)

Well I still have a couple of CT shirts that I wear on a regular basis found the customer service to very good, prompt replies and have been thinking of picking a few up as they have a larger range of designs and colours to chose from as opposed to H&K, at present just waiting for a sale. I think there good value in terms of business wear.


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## majicka (Jul 17, 2010)

Obviously, there are many threads on here as to which is better: TM Lewin or Tyrwhitt but having bought from both, I believe Tyrwhitt to be far better quality. My one gripe is that the sleeve lengths of their shirts only go to 34", other than that I think they're good value.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Racer said:


> CT maintains a UK website. If you live in the US and you buy from that website, you pay the same price a UK resident pays, which includes VAT.
> 
> CT maintains a US website. If you live in the US and you buy from that site, you pay their US price, which does not include VAT.
> 
> Some people think this is unfair. There is another thread dedicated to their complaints.


That's not really correct, I think. If they make a delivery to outside of the UK, they cannot add UK VAT, no matter what site it's from. Fair/unfair don't factor into it IMO. An export sale is an export sale. They have to make a customs declaration, so it's not like they don't know.

They should check that with their tax counsel. The rules are not voluntary.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

majicka said:


> My one gripe is that the sleeve lengths of their shirts only go to 34"


 CT offers the option of having them altered to a more specific measurement if their standard ones are no good.


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## majicka (Jul 17, 2010)

Jake Genezen said:


> CT offers the option of having them altered to a more specific measurement if their standard ones are no good.


Oh right, no-one mentioned that in the shop. I'll look into that in future.


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## defygravity (May 4, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> That's not really correct, I think. If they make a delivery to outside of the UK, they cannot add UK VAT, no matter what site it's from. Fair/unfair don't factor into it IMO. An export sale is an export sale. They have to make a customs declaration, so it's not like they don't know.
> 
> They should check that with their tax counsel. The rules are not voluntary.


I do stand corrected. And thank you for correcting me, as I probably wouldn't have given them any more of my business otherwise!

Apparently since the last time I ordered from them (over 2 years ago), the policy stated on their website was different. When I e-mailed them to ask about the possibility of having my VAT refunded to me, all I got in return was a snide reply and a link to the policy on their website. Perhaps enough people complained so they had to do something.

Here is their current policy (just taken from their website):
All orders sent to the US will not be charged VAT although they may attract customs charges or state taxes in some instances.

I've also found that a lot of websites will not automatically deduct the VAT at checkout, as they say they do. In almost every instance I've had to e-mail customer service to get this service completed.


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## pkhunter (Sep 17, 2009)

FWIW, I like their website and customer support. The "live support" agent was very informative and honest. 

Too bad that their shits, especially fully fitted, come with pathetically small collars. People who wear fitted shirts care a bit more about style. Collars that're 2 inches are for tasteless wimps. I've since moved to John Francombe line at TMLewin, which is much better than the usual TM Lewin waffle.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Er... you may want to edit the first sentence of your second paragraph. :icon_smile_big:


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

defygravity said:


> I do stand corrected. And thank you for correcting me, as I probably wouldn't have given them any more of my business otherwise!
> 
> Apparently since the last time I ordered from them (over 2 years ago), the policy stated on their website was different. When I e-mailed them to ask about the possibility of having my VAT refunded to me, all I got in return was a snide reply and a link to the policy on their website. Perhaps enough people complained so they had to do something.
> 
> ...


Good, they seem to have corrected it. A lot of european e-tailors have problems with the (correct) integration of VAT into their systems. As B2C e-commerce exploded the last five years, a lot of companies now have to deal with both foreign (intra EU) VAT and export sales. Hopefully the systems are up to snuff soon.

I have only tried TM Lewin as of yet, perhaps I'll give CT a chance as well.


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## Grayson (Feb 29, 2008)

From reading this thread, this much is obvious, CT plays favorites! 

*makes note to send Nick a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle bourbon in order to keep up excellent shopping experience*

:icon_smile_wink:


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Bjorn said:


> Good, they seem to have corrected it. A lot of european e-tailors have problems with the (correct) integration of VAT into their systems. As B2C e-commerce exploded the last five years, a lot of companies now have to deal with both foreign (intra EU) VAT and export sales. Hopefully the systems are up to snuff soon.


This is not the case. CT maintains a separate pricelist for non-EU customers, and that price just happens to be calculated at UK price plus UK vat. It ensures that all customers whether in the EU or outside pay exactly the same price for the merchandise. It's perfectly legal to maintain a separate price list for orders from outside the EU, and to artificially set the level of that list to maintain pricing parity between Vat and non-Vat paying customers.

From the CT website:


> *Pricing and VAT outside of the UK*
> 
> In the interests of fairness and consistency, Charles Tyrwhitt has a policy of charging all customers the same throughout the world, so that the price paid in pounds sterling is the same wherever customers live (except for the cost of delivery). None of the significant additional administrative costs for overseas orders are passed on to customers. Equally, an effective reduction in prices through reclaiming VAT is not available.


In the case of retail shipments to EU countries outside the UK, UK Vat must be applied by law, so the separate pricelist actually only applies to non-EU shipments.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

majicka said:


> Obviously, there are many threads on here as to which is better: TM Lewin or Tyrwhitt but having bought from both, I believe Tyrwhitt to be far better quality. My one gripe is that the sleeve lengths of their shirts only go to 34", other than that I think they're good value.


With respect to shirts, I believe T.M. Lewin to be of a higher quality. I do think, however, that Tyrwhitt's other offerings are superior.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Finian McLonergan said:


> This is not the case. CT maintains a separate pricelist for non-EU customers, and that price just happens to be calculated at UK price plus UK vat. It ensures that all customers whether in the EU or outside pay exactly the same price for the merchandise. It's perfectly legal to maintain a separate price list for orders from outside the EU, and to artificially set the level of that list to maintain pricing parity between Vat and non-Vat paying customers.
> 
> From the CT website:
> 
> In the case of retail shipments to EU countries outside the UK, UK Vat must be applied by law, so the separate pricelist actually only applies to non-EU shipments.


Yes, see the other post in the other thread. As for applying UK vat to shipments (consumer sales) to other EU countries, also true as long as sales are below a certain threshold, or the trader may have voluntarily registered for the sales in the buyer state. My post above simply states that no VAT may be put on export sales. An export sale (in VAT law) is a sale out of the EU.

Uniform pricing towards EU and non-EU customers is (probably) ok as far as I know, that's not a matter of taxation but of UK civil and consumer law.

See for the thresholds.


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## Luftvier (Feb 7, 2010)

Eh, I've had great success with their CSRs. And while their shirts are not on par with some of the top of the line makers, they make good beaters for everyday work wear. I've had no problems at all with them, and they've held up well to laundering.

I have a few of their non-irons too. I'm not usually a fan, but they've gotten me out a pinch a few times when I've had to show up for night court at 4am.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Bjorn said:


> Do you mean they add english VAT to sales where they themselves send the goods out of the EU?


They sure do. Not long ago there was a long thread on the subject. The worst of it is that when CT was asked about it they gave a duplicitous 
explanation, and when called on it, they came up with a ridiculous revision to their original duplicity. Bottom line is CT collects the tax, keeps it, and says they are doing it to be "fair".

I haven't bought a thing from them since.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Well, once they determined that the cost of servicing their American clients was substantially higher than their UK or EU clients, they clearly determined to recover the cost somehow. 

The option they chose was, in my opinion, the more intelligent from almost any business perspective. It is very clear - "everyone pays the same price", and very easy to implement from an internal operational point of view.

The alternative was to create a pricelist for US customers 20% higher than the current VAT-inclusive UK price, and then to offer a return of VAT which again would result in "everyone paying the same price"

But this would have been a stupid strategy from two perspectives:

1)It would present US retail consumers with a needlessly inflated headline price, and this would act as a purchase deterrence.
2)It would require additional invoice processing to deduct the "VAT".

One way or another, US customers are going to pay for the higher processing costs which CT claim they incur. 

CT could have tried a different approach, which many US online retailers impose on European-based buyers, namely, to load up the delivery fees with the additional markups. For example, if I purchase a pair of $300 Allen-Edmonds from their US online store, they will hit me for an extortionate $120 in shipping charges. If I lived in Spain it would be $155, or just over 50% of the purchase price.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Finian McLonergan said:


> Well, once they determined that the cost of servicing their American clients was substantially higher than their UK or EU clients, they clearly determined to recover the cost somehow.
> 
> The option they chose was, in my opinion, the more intelligent from almost any business perspective. It is very clear - "everyone pays the same price", and very easy to implement from an internal operational point of view.
> 
> ...


If CT was just trying to recover extra costs of servicing Americans they could add on extra shipping costs, but that is not their explanation. Instead their claim of "fairness" is just BS, judging from your prior post, a claim that seems to have sucked you in. By the way the US has duty that is paid by the customer and in most cases state use tax also paid by the customer.

While shipping charged by AE is exorbitant, and I wouldn't pay it either, unlike CT, they don't make the false claim that they charge it only to be fair.


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## Matt S (Jun 15, 2006)

Does CT charge the same price to the US online as it does in US stores? If so I would I find that acceptable. It's not like the prices Turnbull & Asser charges in the US compared to the UK. US prices convert the UK price with the vat and then add another 20%.


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## bobharley (Mar 28, 2011)

I am an accountant and understand the retail environment quite well. What additional costs is CT incurring by selling off of their EU site to Americans? The extra shipping costs they pass on as they charge more for shipping to the US. Fair enough, that's exactly what they should do. But does it take any more time to process an order going to the US than it does to an EU country? Maybe there is a little something extra that they have to do, but I can't figure out what it is. They probably have to fill out a VAT exclusion form or something equivalent. I have a hard time believing it costs them 20% more than it costs to process an EU order. I personally believe that the majority of the extra 20% they change Americas is additional profit. It's their right to do this, it's not necessarily the ethical thing to do, but they can certainly do it. I simply choose to never buy from them as a result.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

bobharley said:


> I am an accountant and understand the retail environment quite well. What additional costs is CT incurring by selling off of their EU site to Americans? The extra shipping costs they pass on as they charge more for shipping to the US. Fair enough, that's exactly what they should do. But does it take any more time to process an order going to the US than it does to an EU country? Maybe there is a little something extra that they have to do, but I can't figure out what it is. They probably have to fill out a VAT exclusion form or something equivalent. I have a hard time believing it costs them 20% more than it costs to process an EU order. I personally believe that the majority of the extra 20% they change Americas is additional profit. It's their right to do this, it's not necessarily the ethical thing to do, but they can certainly do it. I simply choose to never buy from them as a result.


Theres (to my knowledge) generally no VAT exclusion forms, and the custom form to be filled out is fairly simple (also afaik). The costs have to be related to customer service, returns etc.

There's also a general problem with offering the same product to consumers at two different price levels, namely that the consumers paying the extra 20% feel they are overpaying (no matter that it is in fact tax). But that's perhaps not up to CT to adjust, and US customers may pay extra tax in the US. Also, if you want to lower your countries VAT, feel free to legislate.

It's rarely done (again, afaik) to equalise the after-tax price. Amazon uk for example states the price including UK VAT for customers from all member states, then changes the VAT calculation at check out after the customer has chosen delivery address. As they are over the distance selling threshold to many member states, they add that states VAT at check out. For (for example) Swedes that means a small additional sum is added to the price as the UK VAT is removed and the Swedish (slightly higher) is added.

I think it's good to understand that consumer Internet sales within the EU (and, I presume, export consumer sales) have skyrocketed during the past five years, growing exponentially. This means more profit but also an exponential increase in problems to deal with customs and VAT, systems that are not really built to accommodate companies with massive B2C sales. They are going over the VAT threshold and need to register in 10+ EU countries for VAT at the same time that they need to process export sales as swiftly as intracommunity sales.

I think it would be quite possible for CT to adjust their pricing policy. Especially since just adjusting the price to VAT-inclusive levels for US customers is bound to seem quite unfair to the customer. There's an obvious risk that the US customer will feel he is subsidising the EU customers.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Matt S said:


> Does CT charge the same price to the US online as it does in US stores? If so I would I find that acceptable. It's not like the prices Turnbull & Asser charges in the US compared to the UK. US prices convert the UK price with the vat and then add another 20%.


As much as I despise what Charles Tyrwhitt has done -- to the point where I'm likely not to purchase from them again -- it is ironic.

This is what many outside of America experience when trying to purchase U.S. brands. The Brooks Brothers store in London is a prime example. They basically take the U.S. price, drop the dollar symbol and insert the pound sterling symbol. The same is true for our Canadian cousins, who typically pay significantly more for the same product than what U.S. customers do --- despite a currency that is, at the moment, stronger than the U.S. dollar.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I suspect if Charles Tyrwhitt were bombarded regularly by letters, they would re-consider their policy. 

The company appears to rely on the U.S. market for a reasonable share of its sales, so it’s to their advantage to ensure Americans remain happy.

Perhaps we should also contact the consumer protection offices within our state attorney general departments too.


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## defygravity (May 4, 2011)

Finian McLonergan said:


> Well, once they determined that the cost of servicing their American clients was substantially higher than their UK or EU clients, they clearly determined to recover the cost somehow.
> 
> The option they chose was, in my opinion, the more intelligent from almost any business perspective. It is very clear - "everyone pays the same price", and very easy to implement from an internal operational point of view.
> 
> ...


Being an international business, one could also argue that they could distribute the risk or increased cost in doing business in certain countries across their whole client base, thereby evening out the cost of their products to everyone.

$120 shipping may be a bit high, but what is really "extortionate" is charging someone a 20% tax to help pay for public services that they don't use. Or worse- keeping the money all together, which is illegal. I feel that the company should at least be up front about all of this.

Further, when you get a VAT refund from many other companies (Lewin included) you only receive 15% back, allowing 5% of the cost to whatever they want to use it for. I say that goes a fairly long way to evening out the "extra cost" of doing business with Americans, if there is any at all.

Speaking of which, Bjorn if I'm correct the VAT in Sweden is 25%. Is that the highest in the EU? That is a substantial cost for someone outside of the EU, and receiving none of their great social services, to pay for the convenience of buying from a Swedish company.

Although I suppose EU governments want a piece of that added revenue. If they tax companies doing business outside of the EU at a different rate, I suppose the cost is still passed on to the consumer eventually.

Now that I've seen others have had this problem as well, I probably won't order from them again.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

defygravity said:


> Being an international business, one could also argue that they could distribute the risk or increased cost in doing business in certain countries across their whole client base, thereby evening out the cost of their products to everyone.
> 
> $120 shipping may be a bit high, but what is really "extortionate" is charging someone a 20% tax to help pay for public services that they don't use. Or worse- keeping the money all together, which is illegal. I feel that the company should at least be up front about all of this.
> 
> ...


I think Denmark and Sweden have the highest rates, last i checked, although we have lower rates for food, books etc.

EU companies may not charge VAT on export sales. Sweden nor any other member state. This is stated quite clearly in EU law. VAT is a tax on intracommunity sales only. As for mail order distance selling to the US, it is fairly easy for the company to realise (and to prove) that it is an export sale.

Though companies of course fill out their own VAT tax forms, if any part of output VAT (VAT to be paid) was on an export sale, the company could change their submissions and reclaim it.

CT is most probably not erroneously adding UK VAT to their export sales, my guess is they are simply upping the price to the same level. If they where reporting it as output VAT, they wouldn't keep any of the markup. The entire price charged probably goes into the sales/shipping charges accounts, and no part into output VAT accounts.

Perhaps someone could scan & post a copy of a recent invoice (personal info and order no removed)?


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## eddiel (Feb 9, 2010)

Bjorn said:


> CT is most probably not erroneously adding UK VAT to their export sales, my guess is they are simply upping the price to the same level. If they where reporting it as output VAT, they wouldn't keep any of the markup. The entire price charged probably goes into the sales/shipping charges accounts, and no part into output VAT accounts.
> 
> Perhaps someone could scan & post a copy of a recent invoice (personal info and order no removed)?


You are correct. They are essentially increasing the prices for Non-UK buyers. 
I recently purchased some linen shirts from CT and the invoices DO NOT make any mention of VAT. If they did then I'd have them bang to rights. When I called them they told me that the price I was charged was the non-VAT price even though it was equal to the price a UK based buyer would pay which would include 20% VAT.

What they are doing is legal since they are not charging anyone outside of the UK VAT. They simply upped their prices by 20% for all Non-UK buyers.

Their explanation is quite frankly insulting but what can you do other than not buy from them. Which is what I will be doing. Without the 20% reduction their products aren't good value for money anymore. At least to me they aren't.

Eddie


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

eddiel said:


> What they are doing is legal since they are not charging anyone outside of the UK VAT. They simply upped their prices by 20% for all Non-UK buyers.
> 
> Their explanation is quite frankly insulting but what can you do other than not buy from them.
> 
> Eddie


Write them. There are 20,000-plus members of Ask Andy. If 5% of us wrote the company, I bet we'd get results. There are also several fashion and style reporters who are trolls on here. Perhaps one of them will write an article about it.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

I've bought from both ct and tmlewin and found both to offer good values and good service. I've had problems with the working cuffs, however. And since neither offers 32" sleeves, I have to pay more for alterations, which adds to the purchase price and makes Brooks, which offers 32" sleeves, more competitive when on sale. If they offered 32" sleeves i' d buy more from them. Of course, lately I've warmed up to LE shirts, which dip well below $30 and suddenly become more than acceptable at that price. And LE offers 32" sleeves.

So, tml and ct, cut it out with the working cuffs and please start offering more sleeve lengths!


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

tocqueville said:


> I've bought from both ct and tmlewin and found both to offer good values and good service. I've had problems with the working cuffs, however. And since neither offers 32" sleeves, I have to pay more for alterations, which adds to the purchase price and makes Brooks, which offers 32" sleeves, more competitive when on sale. If they offered 32" sleeves i' d buy more from them. Of course, lately I've warmed up to LE shirts, which dip well below $30 and suddenly become more than acceptable at that price. And LE offers 32" sleeves.
> 
> So, tml and ct, cut it out with the working cuffs and please start offering more sleeve lengths!


British shirtmakers in general have horrid sizes. I guess it's because of the bespoke culture in the U.K., but the off-the-peg shirts at most British shops generally have a 34-inch sleeve as standard. Many places don't even display the sleeve size.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

hockeyinsider said:


> British shirtmakers in general have horrid sizes. I guess it's because of the bespoke culture in the U.K., but the off-the-peg shirts at most British shops generally have a 34-inch sleeve as standard. Many places don't even display the sleeve size.


I have always thought that British (online) shirtmakers have excellent sizes, with different sleeve lengths and proper fit. At least there not S-M-L like many otp shirts in Sweden...

Both TM Lewin and CT offer custom lengths as well, reasonably priced. ?


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Bjorn said:


> I have always thought that British (online) shirtmakers have excellent sizes, with different sleeve lengths and proper fit. At least there not S-M-L like many otp shirts in Sweden...
> 
> Both TM Lewin and CT offer custom lengths as well, reasonably priced. ?


I find American shirtmakers are much better with sizes for off-the-peg shirts. Lewin and C.T. offer 33-inch sleeves, which is a rarity amongst British shirtmakers. Most seem to start at 34-inch sleeves. It is worse on the continental, as you attested to.


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## Mr. Knightly (Sep 1, 2005)

They aren't "effectively" equalizing the price because most Americans are still legally obligated to self-report the purchase and pay the use tax, which is equal to the sales tax you would have paid if you'd purchased in the state.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

hockeyinsider said:


> I find American shirtmakers are much better with sizes for off-the-peg shirts. Lewin and C.T. offer 33-inch sleeves, which is a rarity amongst British shirtmakers. Most seem to start at 34-inch sleeves. It is worse on the continental, as you attested to.


I have no experience with american shirtmakers, though for example the available sizes/widths in AE shoes is simply mindboggling. What are the American equivalents to TM L and CT?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Mr. Knightly said:


> They aren't "effectively" equalizing the price because most Americans are still legally obligated to self-report the purchase and pay the use tax, which is equal to the sales tax you would have paid if you'd purchased in the state.


This is true. It's a good point.

They may not have taken that into consideration. How would you estimate the compliance rate on self-reporting use tax on imports?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Bjorn said:


> This is true. It's a good point.
> 
> They may not have taken that into consideration. How would you estimate the compliance rate on self-reporting use tax on imports?[/QUO


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

Mr. Knightly said:


> They aren't "effectively" equalizing the price because most Americans are still legally obligated to self-report the purchase and pay the use tax, which is equal to the sales tax you would have paid if you'd purchased in the state.


They are equalizing the price prior to shipping. Everything else, shipping fees, customs duty, vat on imports etc. is out of their control and varies considerably from destination to destination.

From a business perspective I find their solution to be particularly efficient, very clear and does away with any complex and error-prone in-house processing while boosting margins on the more costly side of their business (catering to export customers). I expect the higher costs associated with the US are related to the fact that US consumers are conditioned to expect much higher levels of customer service than Europeans. This probably translates to higher rates of returns by US consumers, all of which have to be manually processed, and CT eats the higher shipping costs of sending exchange items. Shipping and customs delays also must lead to higher levels of email enquiries which have to be dealt with. In the end this has to be paid for by those same US consumers.

From a US consumer standpoint I would of course not want to pay higher prices. But if you'll pardon the pun, I'll be surprised if other online retailers don't follow suit.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> I refuse to answer on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.


... hah!


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## defygravity (May 4, 2011)

Finian McLonergan said:


> They are equalizing the price prior to shipping. Everything else, shipping fees, customs duty, vat on imports etc. is out of their control and varies considerably from destination to destination.
> 
> From a business perspective I find their solution to be particularly efficient, very clear and does away with any complex and error-prone in-house processing while boosting margins on the more costly side of their business (catering to export customers). I expect the higher costs associated with the US are related to the fact that US consumers are conditioned to expect much higher levels of customer service than Europeans. This probably translates to higher rates of returns by US consumers, all of which have to be manually processed, and CT eats the higher shipping costs of sending exchange items. Shipping and customs delays also must lead to higher levels of email enquiries which have to be dealt with. In the end this has to be paid for by those same US consumers.
> 
> From a US consumer standpoint I would of course not want to pay higher prices. But if you'll pardon the pun, I'll be surprised if other online retailers don't follow suit.


I'm not sure I agree. When you get a VAT refund, it isn't necessarily a "refund" pe se, but rather a "VAT Export Discount" of around 15%...meaning they still keep 5% of their increased price. I would find it hard to believe that an American order costs 20% more on average, if they already have the customer service and returns infrastructure set up. It's not like Americans are the only people who call customer service or return clothing.

20% seems like a bit much, honestly, and the that they deal with their increased costs (from a customer's perspective) seems very underhanded. And from a business viewpoint, isn't that the perspective that matters most?

I've heard numerous people on here say they would never buy from ct again because of it, myself included. In business school, I saw a statistic once that struck me. If a person has a negative experience with a company, they'll tell around 40 people. If a person has a positive experience with a company, they'll tell around 10 (or something close to these numbers). 2,100 people have now read this post, and have learned what ct's business practices are. I don't know how many people will stop buying from ct just because of this post, but I can guarantee you it's probably a good bit more than me or the other 5 or so people on here complaining.

While Ede and Ravenscroft give the "VAT discount", they also have extraordinarily high shipping fees. It varies by country and item as well. I'd rather buy from them, because at least they're honest, in my opinion.

Of course, from a pure numbers and efficiency perspective ct's policy makes sense, but in business sometimes you have to give some to make a little bit more.

Just my thoughts....ha it's funny how all of this is going on under the subject of "In Praise of Charles Tyrwhitt"


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

The VAT rate is 20% in the UK on most goods. 

If you have an item with a net price of 100, and add VAT, you get a price of 120. 

You as an american put that item in your bag, and at check out, the VAT needs to be taken off the export sale. How much is taken off? 20...

How much is that of 120?
20/120=0,16666667

Your full export 'discount' is therefore 16,7% of the gross price (list price) at which point you will have been refunded all the VAT, or rather, no VAT has been added to your purchase. 

VAT is a bit tricky


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## bobharley (Mar 28, 2011)

While you number ends up being correct, your theory is not correct. The way you are calculating it is by saying that an American would get a 16.67% discount on the 100 price and an additional 16.67% discount on the VAT. In reality, the calculation is 120/1.2 which equates to 100 and completely eliminates the VAT. In regards to your question, "How much is taken off," the answer to that is ZERO. CT does not deduct any of the VAT from non-EU customers. Therefore, a UK citizen pays 120 inclusive of the VAT and a US customer pays 120, and according to CT it is simply 120 without VAT. Therefore the US customer is being hit with an additional 20% margin. As a result, I will never purchase from CT and I make sure that I spread the word as much as possible. CT can certainly do what they want, but I do not have to support them.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

bobharley said:


> While you number ends up being correct, your theory is not correct. The way you are calculating it is by saying that an American would get a 16.67% discount on the 100 price and an additional 16.67% discount on the VAT. In reality, the calculation is 120/1.2 which equates to 100 and completely eliminates the VAT. In regards to your question, "How much is taken off," the answer to that is ZERO. CT does not deduct any of the VAT from non-EU customers. Therefore, a UK citizen pays 120 inclusive of the VAT and a US customer pays 120, and according to CT it is simply 120 without VAT. Therefore the US customer is being hit with an additional 20% margin. As a result, I will never purchase from CT and I make sure that I spread the word as much as possible. CT can certainly do what they want, but I do not have to support them.


No, what I'm saying is that if a 20% VAT is deducted from the price, that's a deduction of roughly 16,7%.

This is in response to the post above mine (!), that states that 'only' about 15% is deducted when (if) the VAT is taken off. Which, if the VAT rate is 20, is a complete reduction of the VAT (120/1.2).

I'm well aware that CT does not do this. I simply wanted to point out that any business deducting 16,7% off the UK sales price has given a US customer a full VAT reduction on the export sale. There is no 5% being witheld.

Again, this was not in reference to CT:s practice of charging the same price to UK and US customers, but a 16,7 % reduction would be a reduction of the full VAT rate. Useful to know if shopping at other venues.

As far as not buying from CT, that is up to you. I don't think they will attract additional US customers with this pricing structure.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

defygravity said:


> I'm not sure I agree. When you get a VAT refund, it isn't necessarily a "refund" pe se, but rather a "VAT Export Discount" of around 15%...meaning they still keep 5% of their increased price. I would find it hard to believe that an American order costs 20% more on average, if they already have the customer service and returns infrastructure set up. It's not like Americans are the only people who call customer service or return clothing.
> 
> 20% seems like a bit much, honestly, and the that they deal with their increased costs (from a customer's perspective) seems very underhanded. And from a business viewpoint, isn't that the perspective that matters most?
> 
> ...


There are approximately 50,000 members of this forum, so about 2.5 percent of the registered members have read this thread. I've already written C.T. I'm also contemplating a complaint with the consumer protection division of my state's attorney general office.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

hockeyinsider said:


> There are approximately 50,000 members of this forum, so about 2.5 percent of the registered members have read this thread. I've already written C.T. I'm also contemplating a complaint with the consumer protection division of my state's attorney general office.


CT lists prices on their website. I just ordered a pair of shirts from that website yesterday: I paid the price listed next to each item, together with $9.95 in postage and handling, which was the amount listed on the page before I clicked "submit." Regardless of how CT arrived at those prices, they were exactly as advertised. Consumer-protection acts prohibit false and deceptive practices such as a bait-and-switch. Nobody here is being deceived. Being charged more than you think you should is not false and deceptive. What are we going to complain about next, that retailers' prices reflect an unreasonable markup over materials and production costs? Charging an advertised price, regardless of what that price is, is simply not against the law.

Furthermore, 1) consumer-protection complaints spell massive headaches for any retailer. Why would you ever file such a complaint against a business for which you had any affection whatsoever unless you had been subject to serious injury? 2) What on earth do you expect the Michigan Attorney General to do about an English business with American physical locations only in New York?


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

I believe the controversy started when someone in the US purchased from their UK website and CT refused to reimburse the VAT even though the sale was for export to the US.

To repeat, my problem with them is not that they charge more in the US but that the reason they give/gave is just not true. I just don't like politicians, or businesses that, with a straight face, lie.


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## defygravity (May 4, 2011)

I think that was stated perfectly.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

The reason that they've given is that export sales have higher admin costs, and that no part of those costs are transferred to non-export customers. 

If you look at the cost of their shirts, and we presuppose that there is actually a higher cost with export sales (seems reasonable), then 20% of that does not seem very unreasonable to me. 

If every shirt is £20-30, that means that the extra per item cost would be around £4-6 to amount to 20%. Is that really unreasonable? 

If I order to Europe from Brooks Brothers US, the shipping fee is $50, to which is added VAT, customs charge and postal handling charge from customs. I'm guessing those $50 cover the extra costs BB have on export sales.

Of course, on a CT suit, the 20% seems a bit high as an export markup but I'm (also) guessing it's mainly shirts that are exported.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

arkirshner said:


> I believe the controversy started when someone in the US purchased from their UK website and CT refused to reimburse the VAT even though the sale was for export to the US.
> 
> To repeat, my problem with them is not that they charge more in the US but that the reason they give/gave is just not true. I just don't like politicians, or businesses that, with a straight face, lie.


This is a perfectly legitimate complaint. But I didn't see any representations regarding how prices are derived on the website. I didn't go looking, I didn't ask anyone, but I certainly didn't rely on such information either. If a customer spoke with a representative of the company got told something that's not true, that clearly isn't right. But that doesn't make their entire pricing scheme ipso facto fraudulent, deceptive, or unfair.


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## Finian McLonergan (Sep 23, 2009)

That sums it up nicely. Incompetent pricing communication does not a fraudulent company make.



defygravity said:


> 20% seems like a bit much, honestly, and the that they deal with their increased costs (from a customer's perspective) seems very underhanded. And from a business viewpoint, isn't that the perspective that matters most?





Bjorn said:


> If you look at the cost of their shirts, and we presuppose that there is actually a higher cost with export sales (seems reasonable), then 20% of that does not seem very unreasonable to me.


:biggrin2:

Whether this cost recovery is legitimate depends on the differential rate of returns, i.e. the degree to which the return rate from US customers exceeds that of EU customers, and on the incremental cost of dealing with US returns vs EU returns. I doubt if CT resells returned shirts, plus they have the higher shipping costs involved in sending an exchange to the US. Then all the emails "did you receive my return/where are my shirts" etc. usually caused by US-UK postal/custom delays over which they have no control, plus the incremental cost of the people involved in handing this. Plus the higher levels of customer service which US consumers naturally expect. Finally, the essential unpredictability of US demand caused by exchange rate gyrations. Only those with access to internal CT data are in a position to decide whether the 20% is reasonable. If you think they are lying to you either about the basic claim that US consumers are more costly to serve than EU ones, or you think the 20% is grossly exaggerated then yes, you should take your business elsewhere. I think their argument is plausible, but it could just be an opportunistic price increase with a convenient rationale. In any event it would be unreasonable to expect them to release commercially sensitive data to back it up.

As to this claim that they are underhanded, this I find bizarre. What's underhanded about telling a customer he's got to pay more because he costs more to serve? It's almost as bizarre as the bogus prior claims that their actions were illegal. Have they handled the communication of the price change well? Absolutely not, but don't confuse pr incompetence with deceptive business practice.



defygravity said:


> While Ede and Ravenscroft give the "VAT discount", they also have extraordinarily high shipping fees. It varies by country and item as well. I'd rather buy from them, because at least they're honest, in my opinion.


 You appear to suggest that imposing "extraordinarily high shipping fees" is an honest business practice. This I find truly bizarre.

We will soon find out whether CT has been honest about reasons behind the 20% price hike to non-EU customers. If they haven't, then expect Lewin to maintain their VAT refund and use it as a stick to beat CT with. If they have, expect Lewin to follow suit or impose additional charges via a different mechanism, for no manufacturer in their right minds would seek to promote a higher-hassle lower-margin business where demand is at the mercy of currency fluctuations at the expense of their stable core markets. I predict the latter outcome.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Bjorn said:


> The reason that they've given is that export sales have higher admin costs, and that no part of those costs are transferred to non-export customers.


This is not the explanation they _originally_ gave. If this is the reason they_ now_ give it is only because they were called on their original "explanation", one that was demonstrably false.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

arkirshner said:


> This is not the explanation they _originally_ gave. If this is the reason they_ now_ give it is only because they were called on their original "explanation", one that was demonstrably false.


It's the explanation they offered the people questioning their price policy in their FB section. I don't know if that was before or after they made the other statement.

We'll see what happens...


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## bobharley (Mar 28, 2011)

The difficulty I am having with CT and their policy (again, they can legitimately charge whatever they want to whomever they want) is that in the EU, displayed prices must include VAT. This is EU law. So, we have an EU based business that discloses VAT in their prices to EU citizens but the extra 20% in their prices to non-EU citizens suddenly becomes "extra costs" of doing business in the US. I'm sorry, but this does not pass muster with me.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

You mean "does not"? 

CT always have good sales on shirts, though I can never find the ones I actually want under $50 in my size and slim fit...


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## defygravity (May 4, 2011)

Finian McLonergan said:


> You appear to suggest that imposing "extraordinarily high shipping fees" is an honest business practice. This I find truly bizarre.


How is that bizarre? Seems to me that on one hand you're telling us that it's perfectly acceptable to bury additional costs in the *base* price for individuals in more expensive markets, but merely taking the additional cost out of the base price and allocating it correctly is ridiculous?

I'm sorry, but I don't think your statement holds water at all. Based on the assumptions that all of these companies are upstanding, and are truly passing their additional costs (and nothing more) on to individuals in these markets, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an individual who _wouldn't_ like to see that cost broken out. Maybe I'm bizarre for wanting to know why I'm being charged more.

My point (and I think a lot of people share it) is that their pricing strategy, to the savvy consumer, seems a bit deceptive. My issue (after learning some facts on here) isn't with their prices, but rather with how they're apparently trying to hide their price hike to US consumers. As we've learned in this thread, this is done through mis-communication, lack of communication, and lack of being forthright. While not illegal, it certainly can be seen as underhanded, or at the very least "less-than-honest". Finally, CT doesn't seem to have the desire to remedy this issue, as numerous individuals have contacted them for clarification, and we have yet to see it.


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## charlie2 (Oct 16, 2007)

Two issues with CT:

1. Their shirts do not last as long as brooks brothers shirts. the CT shirts tend to shrink.
2. Their tailored clothing is cut very short - not alot of love for the tall guys.

I do like their shoes.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I sent a letter yesterday to Mr. Wheeler, the owner of Charles Tyrwhitt, via air mail. I also registered a complaint with the state attorney general's consumer protection bureau.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

hockeyinsider said:


> I sent a letter yesterday to Mr. Wheeler, the owner of Charles Tyrwhitt, via air mail. I also registered a complaint with the state attorney general's consumer protection bureau.


As I said. One of the special ones.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

hockeyinsider said:


> I sent a letter yesterday to Mr. Wheeler, the owner of Charles Tyrwhitt, via air mail. I also registered a complaint with the state attorney general's consumer protection bureau.


 ... seriously?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Perhaps sending a letter to the company is more productive than debating it on a forum  

Pls post the answer


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

It undoubtedly is, but I don't see it as that big an issue to get the consumer protection bureau involved.


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

Jovan said:


> It undoubtedly is, but I don't see it as that big an issue to get the consumer protection bureau involved.


They could find it interesting, although jurisdiction wise they will most probably not bother. I would guess the cpb has limited possibilities to act internationally.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

HockeyInsider is the Rosa Parks of cheap english shirts. School children will learn of his courage in the face of six or seven dollars he didn't want to pay.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

Bjorn said:


> They could find it interesting, although jurisdiction wise they will most probably not bother. I would guess the cpb has limited possibilities to act internationally.


Internationally? Hell, they have limited possibilities to act _interstate_.




Trip English said:


> HockeyInsider is the Rosa Parks of cheap english shirts. School children will learn of his courage in the face of six or seven dollars he didn't want to pay.


 
That made my day.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I'm not an attorney, but as I see it, the company not only does business within the United States, but it does business within the borders of my state and thus there is an underlying issue for the consumer protection bureau; namely whether the company is exploiting customers in my state.


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## firedancer (Jan 11, 2011)

How did I miss this thread? This is great. I'm glad that I view CT as the Brits JAB and would never order their wares anyway.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Just to repeat their original response:

Thank you for your comments on our recent pricing changes, we always appreciate feedback from our customers. I'd like to take the opportunity to give a few more details on this change in addition to those in our brochure & on our website. 

Our international business has grown significantly in recent times and in light of this we have now conducted some thorough analysis on the costs associated with this. This review has shown us that there are greatly increased costs on international orders beyond those covered in our delivery charge. 

In order to keep offering our great products to customers from around the globe we need to reflect these costs in our prices. Instead of setting up different pricing structures for each country on our sterling site, which would add further cost and complexity, we felt that the simplest solution would be to set the same sterling price for all customers on our UK site. This allows us to cover these increased costs and offer a fair and consistent pricing policy. 
 
The key additional cost that we pay for US customers is import duty, we pay these directly so that our customers do not get additional costs on receipt of their products. The second significant difference is that we offer free returns to our US customers where as these are charged for in UK and rest of the world. The costs associated with these are included as part of the selling price in the US $ site but not the UK sterling site hence the need for the change.

I hope that you still feel we offer high quality products at extremely good value for money and that you do choose to purchase from us again in the future.


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## defygravity (May 4, 2011)

Trip English said:


> HockeyInsider is the Rosa Parks of cheap english shirts. School children will learn of his courage in the face of six or seven dollars he didn't want to pay.


Hilarious!!!!


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Andy said:


> Just to repeat their original response:
> 
> Thank you for your comments on our recent pricing changes, we always appreciate feedback from our customers. I'd like to take the opportunity to give a few more details on this change in addition to those in our brochure & on our website.
> 
> ...


This was NOT their original response, and by representing to Andy that it was their original response, once again, they have been less than truthful. 
Andy, what they sent you is their damage control response. I especially don't like that they attempted to deceive you, to whom we owe this site.

Their original response is to be found in the following thread:

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...hitt-Policy-Change-No-Value-Added-Tax-Refunds!!!!

and the following, in the opening post of that thread, is the their original response:

Deep Classic 
New Member
Join Date
April 23rd, 2011
Location
Washington, DC, USA
Posts
8
Charles Tyrwhitt Policy Change - No Value Added Tax Refunds!!!!
I recently received my latest order from Charles Tyrwhitt and I noted that the Value Added Tax (VAT) had not been deducted. I contacted CT and they responded that they had recently changed their policy to NOT refund VAT to users outside the EU (please see paragraph 6.4.2 of their terms and conditions on their website). Here is the reply I received from them:

"Thank you for your email.

I am very sorry to hear that you feel this way and that you wish to discontinue your relationship with us. I would like to stress again that it is not that we are now charging VAT to our non-EU customers, but that the prices have altered to be inline with our EU based customers.

Customers from outside the EU will now pay the same prices advertised online and in the catalogue, but these are VAT exclusive for the non-EU customers to ensure that everyone pays the same price.

Nevertheless I have passed your comments on to the relevant departments and have also removed your details from our mailing list. As we order catalogues in advance, you may receive one more, but this will be the last. I do hope you will reconsider and if I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

Best regards

Victoria Forrester 
Customer Services"

Think about this response - CT is charging non-EU customers the same prices they are charging EU customers, which includes 20% VAT - and pocketing the difference under the guise of fairness!

I have alerted Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs that CT's advertised prices do not include VAT as they are required by law. Here's what is says at HMRC's website:

https://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/basics.htm

"Prices in advertisements, catalogues and price lists Products advertised in outlets, magazines, on the internet, or shown in catalogues, price lists and other literature may be aimed at the consumer, businesses, or both. If they're only meant for the general public, they'll show you a price including VAT. This is a legal requirement."

I am very distressed about this development as I have been a loyal CT shopper for over 5 years and have recommended their products to many, many friends. If CT reverts to their prior, long-standing business practice, I will be a return customer.

I thought AAAC's members should be aware of this ASAP! Complaints from loyal customers could help CT see the light and revert to proper business practices.


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

hockeyinsider said:


> but as I see it, the company not only does business within the United States, but it does business within the borders of my state and thus there is an underlying issue for the consumer protection bureau; namely whether the company is exploiting customers in my state.


It is not at all clear that CT does business within the borders of your state at all. In fact, I'll go on record for the position that they most emphatically do not do business in Michigan, or Tennessee, or any state except New York. Nobody from that company went to Michigan on behalf of the company; they do not own or lease real estate there; they don't have their website set up to garner google hits on "Michigan clothing stores" searches. Your act of searching out their products, ordering them, and having them shipped to Michigan does not (and cannot, in all fairness) by itself result in C.T. "conducting business" there. Under this theory the only way a company could ever avoid doing business in all fifty states is to refuse to ship products to purchasers in given states. That's a poor business model, and one the law does not require.

Does Sam Hober do business in Michigan because you can access his website there, or even because you (let's say) buy his ties? Do you do business with Tennessee because you can communicate over a wire with people in this State? Of course not, and you would be rightly outraged if a Tennessee court were to insist otherwise. There simply is not any basis for a Michigan court to exercise jurisdiction over C.T., and thus nothing for the CP division of the Attorney General's office to do about any of their business practices.

We'll even leave aside for the moment the fact that "doing business in" a state is a concept distinct from whether an entity is subject to the jurisdictions of a state's courts. Suffice to say that C.T. is neither vis-a-vis Michigan. (Assuming, of course, that they aren't actually sending traveling salesmen there or the like.)


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Can we segue to What shoes were made by International Shoe?


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## Titus_A (Jun 23, 2010)

arkirshner said:


> Can we segue to What shoes were made by International Shoe?


Apparently "lots": they were once the largest shoe manufacturer in the U.S. Owned Florsheim at one point. Famously sent a traveling salesman to Washington.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

Titus_A said:


> Apparently "lots": they were once the largest shoe manufacturer in the U.S. Owned Florsheim at one point. Famously sent a traveling salesman to Washington.


Can we now segue to traveling salesman jokes? Anything to get away from more CT talk, especially as CT now has decided to be less than straight with Andy, (see my edit to post 93)


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## defygravity (May 4, 2011)

Speaking of TM Lewin (to change the topic)....I just received 5 shirts from them today (for 160!), and I noticed on the address on the customs form that it mentioned Malmo, Sweden as the return address if undeliverable. 

Bjorn, aren't you from Malmo? It's probably a big place, but do you know of a TM Lewin presence there, or why they would put that as their return address?

BTW...the price wasn't actually $160....it was $136 after they took off the 15% for their "export discount" ;-)


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

defygravity said:


> Speaking of TM Lewin (to change the topic)....I just received 5 shirts from them today (for 160!), and I noticed on the address on the customs form that it mentioned Malmo, Sweden as the return address if undeliverable.
> 
> Bjorn, aren't you from Malmo? It's probably a big place, but do you know of a TM Lewin presence there, or why they would put that as their return address?
> 
> BTW...the price wasn't actually $160....it was $136 after they took off the 15% for their "export discount" ;-)


I do live there but am not aware of any operations here by TM Lewin. Weird...


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## Harrydog (Apr 2, 2005)

Andy said:


> Charles Tyrwhitt has been a long time sponsor of this website and I have had excellent luck with their ready-to-wear! I especially like their check dress shirts.
> 
> I just got my second sport jacket from them:
> 
> ...


I am puzzled by the appeal of working button cuffs on RTW as I suspect many buyers could stand to have sleeve length altered slightly, a real pain when there are working cuffs. I believe the sleeve length is crucial in a good fit. I steer clear of RTW working cuffs unless I am able to try on the coat first.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Harry: Pretty much my sentiments on the first page. It's a hindrance more than a help, but I suppose they're catering to the "general public" who are easily impressed by such gimmicks.



Jovan said:


> Working sleeve buttons have actually been a deal breaker for me. Sure, you may get customer service to give you the measurement from the shoulder seam to cuff. However, that's not always reliable as some shoulders are more built up than others. Also difficult as hell to alter if it needs more than 3/8 of an inch taken in or let out. I'd generally prefer it if all these companies would just leave them ready to alter with buttons and leave the cost (and preference) of working sleeves to us.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

Bjorn said:


> I do live there but am not aware of any operations here by TM Lewin. Weird...


I used to get C.T. orders that originated by courier from Switzerland, if I recall correctly.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

I received a letter from C.T. in response to the one that I sent to Nicholas Charles Tyrwhitt Wheeler Esq. earlier this month. (By the way, it is very poorly written.)

https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/p8260828.jpg/


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

hockeyinsider said:


> I received a letter from C.T. in response to the one that I sent to Nicholas Charles Tyrwhitt Wheeler Esq. earlier this month. (By the way, it is very poorly written.)
> 
> https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/p8260828.jpg/


Poorly written responses are easily explained, they outsource their communications to the same third world countries that sew their shirts.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

arkirshner said:


> Poorly written responses are easily explained, they outsource their communications to the same third world countries that sew their shirts.


I doubt that, at least in this case. I sent an old-fashioned, typewritten letter via air mail to the C.T. worldwide headquarters in London.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

And from London they sent it to Bangledesh where after sewing for 12 hours the poor girls spend the next hour answering letters.


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## mkrgk (Aug 16, 2010)

If you are going to complain about the written English of folks in third world countries at least get _your_ punctuation straight, sir. And, by the way, I have often noticed that the command of English that the Americans have is rather poor in comparison to that of a similarly educated third world denizen.


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## Deep Classic (Apr 23, 2011)

*I have a dream.*



Trip English said:


> HockeyInsider is the Rosa Parks of cheap english shirts. School children will learn of his courage in the face of six or seven dollars he didn't want to pay.


The tongue in cheek conclusion that must be drawn from this post is that Trip English has crowned himself the metaphorical Jim Crow of this thread. His speaking role in this little drama is to smarmily blurt out, in the face of injustice: "Go to the back of the bus, sit down, shut up, and be satisfied with your lot in life!"

I wonder if his taste in CT shirting runs to ******** Only? :smile:

Like Trip English, I have a dream. I have a dream that one day CT will properly post their prices so that consumers will be able to make informed decisions on their purchases. I have a dream that one day CT will stop pocketing value added tax to which they are not entitled. I have a dream that one day CT will actually respond to questions from their customers with more than dodgy gibberish about "fairness", etc. that insults our intelligence. I have a dream that one day CT will post their prices in accordance with UK law and consumer standards. I have a dream that one day CT will refund to me the ill gotten VAT that they took from me and pocketed. I have a dream that one day CT will put aside its arrogance and quest for profits to remember that it is the consumer that keeps them in business. I have a dream today&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

So let fairness ring from the trendy shops of Jermyn Street!

Let fairness ring from the glittered runways of Milan!

Let fairness ring from the polished canyons of New York City!

But not only that; let fairness ring from the snooty boutiques of Rodeo Drive!

Let fairness ring from every department store and retail establishment of the Free World. From every online site, let fairness ring!

And when this happens, when we allow fairness to ring, when we let it ring from every shop and every store, from every country and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all people interested in presenting themselves in style to the world, traditionalists, fashionistas, bad boys, designers, vendors, will be able to join hands and sing these words, "Fair at last! Fair at last! Thank God Almighty, it is fair at last!"

We shall overcome!


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

^^ 


Brilliant, Sir, brilliant.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Brevity is the soul of wit.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

mkrgk said:


> If you are going to complain about the written English of folks in third world countries at least get _your_ punctuation straight, sir. And, by the way, I have often noticed that the command of English that the Americans have is rather poor in comparison to that of a similarly educated third world denizen.


Please point out an error and I'll make amends.


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## Deep Classic (Apr 23, 2011)

Trip English said:


> Brevity is the soul of wit.


Since brevity is important to you, can you provide some quick tips to our fringe members on how to stylishly wear a white sheet? Do you recommend super 110's or 150's? (All metaphorically speaking, of course.)


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
Deep Classic: Your repeated attempts to infer social insult, where clearly none was intended, under the gauzy haze of alluded humor, are becoming tiresome. If you think you have a valid concern, report it appropriately. Otherwise, change the tac you seem to be taking with your postings to this thead! Thank-you.


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## mkrgk (Aug 16, 2010)

hockeyinsider said:


> Please point out an error and I'll make amends.


 I believe I'm referring to arkishner's posts, in this regard. This frequent denigration of "third world countries" does get tiresome at times.


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## mkrgk (Aug 16, 2010)

One sentiment quite pervasive on this forum is that products originating in developing or under-developed countries are always of shoddy quality. Mass (volume) manufacturing does not lend itself easily to extraordinary quality, unless that is a priority, witness the old GM in comparison to Honda. I have seen shoes of tremendous quality being put together in India, equal to what the Northampton or Italian shops would produce, but these are not going to sell for peanuts on the dollar, as is the expectation from "overseas" manufacturing. Contrary to popular belief, it is not cheaper to produce stuff in China or India if the quality has to be comparable to what you see in Western countries. You get what you pay for.


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## arkirshner (May 10, 2005)

mkrgk said:


> I believe I'm referring to arkishner's posts, in this regard. This frequent denigration of "third world countries" does get tiresome at times.


I will freely admit there have been punctuation errors in my posts. On the other hand they are just that, posts, not proof read letters sent out on business stationary. If the consensus of this board is that posts should be proof read for punctuation then those whose posts are punctuation perfect need do nothing. On the other hand, those like myself whose posts tend to have punctuation errors will be faced with the choice of, (1) proofreading, if capable, or first writing posts on Word followed by Grammarcheck, or (2) ignore the consensus and post without perfection,or (3) give up posting. Until a consensus develops I will make hockeyinsiders' offer, point out my errors and I will correct them.( Please note that the site only provides for editing within 24 hours so errors must be pointed out soon after commission. I do not promise to be online 24/7 to receive corrections thus all error notifications may not be noted in time to post corrections.)

As to your main point; I freely admit that attempts at parody, sarcasm, or irony run the risk of being too subtle by half. In my posts you see denigration of third world countries were none was intended. (I do however reserve the right in the future to degrade any third, second, or first world country that is, or becomes, a failed state or a state in which the government, or a substantial portion of the population, works toward, wishes, or at best would be indifferent to the destruction of western civilization.)

As my attempts, in your eyes,were too subtle by half, by way of explanation I was merely trying to point out that where CT takes advantage of the universal connection of the UK with world class shirt making by marketing itself as quintessentially British, the truth is that, other than their name, they are no more British shirtmakers than those who supply Wal Mart. I certainly had no intention of insulting any one in a third world country working for CT.

You have a point about the command of English here vs third world countries. The gibberish and obfuscation in CT's response to hockeyinsider
is worth of the responses put out by certain congressmen when asked to explain their positions.


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## hockeyinsider (May 8, 2006)

mkrgk said:


> One sentiment quite pervasive on this forum is that products originating in developing or under-developed countries are always of shoddy quality. Mass (volume) manufacturing does not lend itself easily to extraordinary quality, unless that is a priority, witness the old GM in comparison to Honda. I have seen shoes of tremendous quality being put together in India, equal to what the Northampton or Italian shops would produce, but these are not going to sell for peanuts on the dollar, as is the expectation from "overseas" manufacturing. Contrary to popular belief, it is not cheaper to produce stuff in China or India if the quality has to be comparable to what you see in Western countries. You get what you pay for.


I second the gentleman's observation. Furthermore, I wish to add that the protectionist inclinations of some members are unfortunate. I am all for buying local or buying American if the product warrants it. I will not, however, buy local or buy American for the sake of buying local or buying American if the product is of insufficient quality.


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## Deep Classic (Apr 23, 2011)

*OK, Ref.*



eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> Deep Classic: Your repeated attempts to infer social insult, where clearly none was intended, under the gauzy haze of alluded humor, are becoming tiresome. If you think you have a valid concern, report it appropriately. Otherwise, change the tac you seem to be taking with your postings to this thead! Thank-you.


OK, Ref. In my view, these were aggressive body blows all delivered above the belt, especially since the gentleman chose the snarky reference to our deservedly rich heritage of civil disobedience against injustice. Nonetheless, I'll take the caution.

Similarly, you should caution children not to play with matches or loaded metaphors - who knows what mischief might result?


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## Bjorn (May 2, 2010)

mkrgk said:


> One sentiment quite pervasive on this forum is that products originating in developing or under-developed countries are always of shoddy quality. Mass (volume) manufacturing does not lend itself easily to extraordinary quality, unless that is a priority, witness the old GM in comparison to Honda. I have seen shoes of tremendous quality being put together in India, equal to what the Northampton or Italian shops would produce, but these are not going to sell for peanuts on the dollar, as is the expectation from "overseas" manufacturing. Contrary to popular belief, it is not cheaper to produce stuff in China or India if the quality has to be comparable to what you see in Western countries. You get what you pay for.


Its also hard to find people in the west who want to do actual 'work', and does it. They are most often immigrants. Gods know I don't.

I think people just wanna return to the good old days that never where.


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## Andy (Aug 25, 2002)

Call me crazy :crazy: but I just got these two sport jackets from Charles Tyrwhitt!!! :icon_smile:

https://www.ctshirts.com/Cotton-Pri...entials|JK047LGY|||||||||||||&canned=11000009

A great looking Prince of Wales plaid - grey and blue, and it doesn't matter if I paid !00% VAT since the price was originally $800.00, saving 50% only *$399.00

*And this one:

https://www.ctshirts.com/Grey-jersey-jacket?q=share||JK051GRY|||||||||||||

(can't seem to get this photo/link to work but it's the Grey Jersey Jacket). ??

even crumbled up as a pillow! I think Geoffrey Beene was famous for inventing something like this in the 1970's.
It was $660.00, saving 50% for an investment of only *$329.00

*Both have working sleeve buttons, are heavier weight than I need in Southern California and only required one sleeve slightly shortened and the collars lowered.


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## hookem12387 (Dec 29, 2009)

Wow..


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## bobharley (Mar 28, 2011)

Do you really think they ever sold them for $800 & $660, respectively? I would guess that the prices you paid are their standard prices. But then if you like them, so be it.



Andy said:


> Call me crazy :crazy: but I just got these two sport jackets from Charles Tyrwhitt!!! :icon_smile:
> 
> https://www.ctshirts.com/Cotton-Prince-of-Wales-check-jacket-?q=share|top-autumn-essentials|JK047LGY|||||||||||||&canned=11000009
> 
> ...


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## pusso (May 5, 2009)

Although I'm happier in bespoke, the rest of the time I wear TMLewin or Charles Tyrwhitt, whose sterling silver cuff,inks I wear too.

The customer service is excellent and for the price point cannot be beaten.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

bobharley said:


> Do you really think they ever sold them for $800 & $660, respectively? I would guess that the prices you paid are their standard prices. But then if you like them, so be it.


Exactly.
I don't think I've ever bought anything from Charles Tyrwhitt, but the clothes on their website seem to be constantly discounted from the full price. Their suits seem to be always offered at a 50% discount.


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## Haffman (Oct 11, 2010)

I think for legal reasons they have to have them at full price for a few minutes past midnight on the third night of the blue moon, but yes the rest of the time they are to be had for these 'incredible sale' prices.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

All this verbiage about two bob shirts.

Catch on to yourselves!


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