# Elitism



## Z.J.P (Jun 29, 2010)

This kind of makes me sick: 

What makes me laugh is that I just visited the L.L. Bean at Tyson's Corner(which is absurdly huge) and it didn't really feel like some elite place only preppy kids visit.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

Z.J.P said:


> ...L.L. Bean... didn't really feel like some elite place only preppy kids visit.


Yes, exactly. It's not anymore. Every trendy wannabe is hopping on the bandwagon and wearing shoes, meant for trodding through wet vegetation, on paved surfaces like a fool
.
Unless one's feet recently changed size, why else would anyone be buying their first pair? Why would anyone buy a second pair?

Also, I have the Maine Hunting Shoe. Bean Boots is some new gimmicky name.


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## Z.J.P (Jun 29, 2010)

To me, they are just affordable and useful shoes in the muck or in the concrete jungle.


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

It's a messy day out there. Wore my bean boots to the mall today.

And the irony of that site is that, at least at my alma mater, Zetas were way down the list of classy, traditional sororities.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

There are some interesting images on that site.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

WillBarrett said:


> It's a messy day out there. Wore my bean boots to the mall today.
> 
> And the irony of that site is that, at least at my alma mater, Zetas were way down the list of classy, traditional sororities.


As ironic as the following statement is about to be on a thread about elitism, they're seen as the "new money" sorority at mine. Very, very concerned with appearances, very "neo-prep" and with a heavy tendency to put on unjustified airs.


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## Z.J.P (Jun 29, 2010)

Reuben said:


> As ironic as the following statement is about to be on a thread about elitism, they're seen as the "new money" sorority at mine. Very, very concerned with appearances, very "neo-prep" and with a heavy tendency to put on unjustified airs.


This is a whole new spin on this whole thing. I wasn't even thinking about the Greek system association.

Someone I follow on Tumblr reblogged this, that is how I came across it.


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

Reuben said:


> As ironic as the following statement is about to be on a thread about elitism, they're seen as the "new money" sorority at mine. Very, very concerned with appearances, very "neo-prep" and with a heavy tendency to put on unjustified airs.


Same deal in Tuscaloosa. They're not an old row sorority, although the outward differences between old row and new row are hard to discertain these days.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

WillBarrett said:


> It's a messy day out there. Wore my bean boots to the mall today.


Was there some drainage issue where the 3/4" of rain puddled up to almost heel height?

Despite that page in the Preppy Handbook, I can't imagine covering the entire foot in a rather inflexible hunk of rubber because the pavement is wet.


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## thegovteach (Dec 2, 2012)

Coming from a high school setting most of my life, I can see this filtering down to the HS level at some point. 
Cool at college, becomes " cool" in HS....then in about 2-3 years, LL Bean, will be awash in boots....this too shall pass...


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## WillBarrett (Feb 18, 2012)

Tempest said:


> Was there some drainage issue where the 3/4" of rain puddled up to almost heel height?
> 
> Despite that page in the Preppy Handbook, I can't imagine covering the entire foot in a rather inflexible hunk of rubber because the pavement is wet.


Respectfully - who cares?

It was wet and raining. I wore those boots. My feet were dry and I liked how I looked.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Yes. Wear your clothes. Don't be worn by them. The boots are to keep your feet warm and dry. They succeeded. That is all.


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## Oak City Trad (Aug 2, 2014)

Preps are people with something to prove, such as "I am young and therefore break all the sartorial rules" or "I'm a fifth-generation so-and-so" or "all the money my parents spent totally bought me a quality education."

You either are or you aren't. Kids grow out of their short-pants. Charlatans are always having to explain themselves. Pay them no mind.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

Tempest said:


> Yes, exactly. It's not anymore. Every trendy wannabe is hopping on the bandwagon and wearing shoes, meant for trodding through wet vegetation, on paved surfaces like a fool
> .
> Unless one's feet recently changed size, why else would anyone be buying their first pair? Why would anyone buy a second pair?
> 
> Also, I have the Maine Hunting Shoe. Bean Boots is some new gimmicky name.


I tend to agree with you, but be careful....lot's of shiny new pairs popping up on AAAC over the last few months!


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Oak City Trad said:


> Kids grow out of their short-pants.


Nope. Never giving up my shorts.


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## Oak City Trad (Aug 2, 2014)

Reuben said:


> Nope. Never giving up my shorts.


Reuben, we all know you're a kid at heart. You know the old saying, "If the patch-tweed sportcoat and fun shirt fits..."


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## Flairball (Dec 9, 2012)

FLCracka said:


> ....lot's of shiny new pairs popping up on AAAC over the last few months!


I can honestly say that I feel pretty good knowing that I may have contributed to these young womens' anguish.

As to their use; I've yet to kill anything in them, but I have managed to not watch where I was going while hiking with the dog, and stepped in a mountain of horse droppings. Perhaps the young laddies would consider making me an offer on a pair of new, properly functioning Bean boot. You know,....if they feel so strongly on the issue.


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## Z.J.P (Jun 29, 2010)

Oak City Trad said:


> Preps are people with something to prove, such as "I am young and therefore break all the sartorial rules" or "I'm a fifth-generation so-and-so" or "all the money my parents spent totally bought me a quality education."
> 
> You either are or you aren't. Kids grow out of their short-pants. Charlatans are always having to explain themselves. Pay them no mind.


I like this.


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## vpkozel (May 2, 2014)

Reuben said:


> Nope. Never giving up my shorts.


I might also add that this is a good thing for me as it means more pairs at my local goodwill.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

I got Bean Boots in October- I had wanted them for a long time and finally pulled the trigger. I liked them so much, I got the boot mocs shortly after, and both have been great for keeping my feet dry in the rain and warm in the cold. I have nothing to prove, and with how long these are supposed to last, I'll have and wear them long after they're not trendy.


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## g3org3y (Dec 30, 2014)

I don't think we have the LL Bean brand over in the UK (at least I've not seen it in my travels) so unaware of the boots in question. I did a quick search on google and this is what I came up with:










They look a cross between a welly and a Timberland boot.


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## Danny (Mar 24, 2005)

It's raining outside, I don't have time to figure out the 'meta' implications of wearing my boots, I am just going to put them on.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

What are the differences between "prep", " trad", and "ivy"?


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## Spex (Nov 25, 2012)

LordSmoke said:


> What are the differences between "prep", " trad", and "ivy"?


https://www.ivy-style.com/same-or-different-ivy-versus-preppy.html


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Oak City Trad said:


> Reuben, we all know you're a kid at heart. You know the old saying, "If the patch-tweed sportcoat and fun shirt fits..."


Don't forget the critter shirts and bare ankles!


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

I love them and have loved them since I was a kid and have worn them since I was a kid. I have four iterations of them (bought between a few years ago and well-over two decades ago [I've had Bean refurbish them]) and could easily find another version to buy if I wanted to. In inclement weather, they are my only shoe and - as others have noted - sometimes I wear them just for the warmth or convenience.

This trend will pass and I will still be wearing them. My guess is the net result to Bean will be that some small percentage of the trend-driven customers will become customers for life.


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## K Street (Dec 4, 2007)

The aliens scouring our internet for signs of intelligent life have now concluded that we take things written in pink seriously.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

LordSmoke said:


> What are the differences between "prep", " trad", and "ivy"?


I can assure you that my wardrobe doesn't know the difference.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

This has been bandied about ad nauseum many places around the Web. You should Google the subject and see. There are arguably many differences as well as many similarities.



LordSmoke said:


> What are the differences between "prep", " trad", and "ivy"?


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Duvel said:


> This has been bandied about ad nauseum many places around the Web. You should Google the subject and see. There are arguably many differences as well as many similarities.


So I now see. It would appear "prep" is potentially used derogatorily, while "trad" is embraced. From my own experience, "preppy" referred to the kids in high-school with Izod shirts, sockless shoes, the new Trans Am they got for their sixteenth birthday (the one with the big decal on the hood), and a very entitled attitude. This carried over into college, too. That exposure left me with a very low opinion of such style.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

LordSmoke said:


> So I now see. It would appear "prep" is potentially used derogatorily, while "trad" is embraced. From my own experience, "preppy" referred to the kids in high-school with Izod shirts, sockless shoes, the new Trans Am they got for their sixteenth birthday (the one with the big decal on the hood), and a very entitled attitude. This carried over into college, too. That exposure left me with a very low opinion of such style.


The preppy kids I knew wouldn't have been caught dead in a Trans Am. They wanted foreign sports cars from the '60s - MGs, Porches. If it had to be American, then - also from the 60s - maybe a Mustang.


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## FLMike (Sep 17, 2008)

This thread was doomed from the start.


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

Doomed, I tell you. DOOMED!


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## Jman9599 (Dec 23, 2013)

What is county clup prep? That site is a fail.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

Duvel said:


> Doomed, I tell you. DOOMED!


Having jumped in the middle and shot off my big mouth, I, then, after seeing your post, went back to the beginning of the thread and have to say, I'm not sure there is much to this thread to worry about it being doomed. Not a dig at ZJP at all - but I think it was meant to have a short life.


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## Z.J.P (Jun 29, 2010)

Fading Fast said:


> Having jumped in the middle and shot off my big mouth, I, then, after seeing your post, went back to the beginning of the thread and have to say, I'm not sure there is much to this thread to worry about it being doomed. Not a dig at ZJP at all - but I think it was meant to have a short life.


I agree with you. The comment made me shiver and I wanted to vent somewhere.

:icon_peaceplease:


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Z.J.P said:


> This kind of makes me sick:
> 
> What makes me laugh is that I just visited the L.L. Bean at Tyson's Corner(which is absurdly huge) and it didn't really feel like some elite place only preppy kids visit.


She belongs to a "country clup" (sic). What do they teach at prep schools nowadays?


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## Duvel (Mar 16, 2014)

No, that's not really it. Prep can be a derogatory term but it also refers to a certain style based in Ivy and trad. There's much to like about it, and much that informs my wardrobe and that of others here.



LordSmoke said:


> So I now see. It would appear "prep" is potentially used derogatorily, while "trad" is embraced. From my own experience, "preppy" referred to the kids in high-school with Izod shirts, sockless shoes, the new Trans Am they got for their sixteenth birthday (the one with the big decal on the hood), and a very entitled attitude. This carried over into college, too. That exposure left me with a very low opinion of such style.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

I got all excited when I saw the title of this thread, hoping that, finally, someone else on this forum would join me in denigrating the vile proletariat, with their polyester shirts and dungaree trousers. Imagine my disappointment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

It was drizzly today. I wore my old-school Gorton's fisherman foul weather gear to church. I was dry and happy. Luckily the parvenus have not picked up on this yet. The silly slobs were just using umbrellas or getting misted on the walk through the parking lot!


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## Z.J.P (Jun 29, 2010)

L-feld said:


> I got all excited when I saw the title of this thread, hoping that, finally, someone else on this forum would join me in denigrating the vile proletariat, with their polyester shirts and dungaree trousers. Imagine my disappointment.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sorry to disappoint. We can start another one for you.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Fading Fast said:


> The preppy kids I knew wouldn't have been caught dead in a Trans Am. They wanted foreign sports cars from the '60s - MGs, Porches. If it had to be American, then - also from the 60s - maybe a Mustang.


Ha! Well, that was a very specific example I recall. A fellow whose parents bought a house for him in the school distract so he could play football in a higher division. I am/was unfamiliar with what others in his circle might have driven. Preferences may be somewhat geography-specific.


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## L-feld (Dec 3, 2011)

Z.J.P said:


> Sorry to disappoint. We can start another one for you.


Awesome! While we're at it, can we mock the petty bourgeoisie as well? I don't know what they wear, though. Ralph Lauren green label?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Fading Fast said:


> The preppy kids I knew wouldn't have been caught dead in a Trans Am.


:winner:


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## Mikestyle49 (Sep 29, 2014)

it's just a sales technique more than anything. they play aloof to try and make the perception of the place to be greater than it is. I think of LL bean as decent quality, not exciting, but a place i turn to for my basics. The aloofness leads you to think its a high end store. Truth is, in the high end stores, they treat you much better.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Fading Fast said:


> The preppy kids I knew wouldn't have been caught dead in a Trans Am. They wanted foreign sports cars from the '60s - MGs, Porches. If it had to be American, then - also from the 60s - maybe a Mustang.


This is absolutely correct; a "trans am" had (and has) very prole associations, sorry if I'm offending anyone.

Foreign, yes. But the thing is, it couldn't bee too flashy either. A flashy new Maserati - or something like it - was all wrong too.

Something a little understated but nice and preferably a bit beaten up/used AND foreign, but not too flashy: so, an old volvo, an old porsche, etc. Even better, an old MG or Fiat spider, etc.

*****

Edit: come to think of it, maybe I'm talking more young traddy though, these distinctions are even there in high school, lol...


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## Jouster (Sep 9, 2014)

I don't consider myself to be elitist in any way, but I'm not concerned if the _hoi polloi _ disagree.


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## SlideGuitarist (Apr 23, 2013)

Jouster said:


> I don't consider myself to be elitist in any way, but I'm not concerned if the _hoi polloi _ disagree.


Ha! "The" _hoi polloi_ is a pleonasm!

Do I win anything?


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

SammyH said:


> This is absolutely correct; a "trans am" had (and has) very prole associations, sorry if I'm offending anyone.
> 
> Foreign, yes. But the thing is, it couldn't bee too flashy either. A flashy new Maserati - or something like it - was all wrong too.
> 
> ...


You're spot on to the few preppies that populated my high school in the '70s. Older, not flashy, foreign, a bit torn and frayed (so to speak) was the preppy car of choice. I had no frame of reference for what a preppy truly was (its social implications, the history of the items), but I was intrigued by their style as an observer.


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## Jman9599 (Dec 23, 2013)

On second thought that blog has amazing pics


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

WillBarrett said:


> Respectfully - who cares?
> 
> It was wet and raining. I wore those boots. My feet were dry and I liked how I looked.


I like the cut of your jib.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

^+1. 

Re: the Trans Am. Anti trad guilty pleasure confession: I'm an unapologetic muscle car guy, and would gladly take a '77 Bandit T/A. Once I obtain my dream '70 Z/28 (Daytona yellow with 4:10 positrac rear end and exhaust cutouts just for fun), I'll probably be the only guy into both Camaros and bow ties. I guess I just never understood the appeal of a trashed out old volvo.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

mjo_1 said:


> ^+1.
> 
> Re: the Trans Am. Anti trad guilty pleasure confession: I'm an unapologetic muscle car guy, and would gladly take a '77 Bandit T/A. Once I obtain my dream '70 Z/28 (Daytona yellow with 4:10 positrac rear end and exhaust cutouts just for fun), I'll probably be the only guy into both Camaros and bow ties. I guess I just never understood the appeal of a trashed out old volvo.


Very cool 

As to the old dumpy volvo, etc. I dunno how to describe it; it's an aesthetic with a kind of yankee frugality moral undertone. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without." My grandfather used to drive an old dodge that was quite literally, at least to all appearances, held together with duck tape. One he'd didn't like the idea of flaunting wealth; two he liked to be frugal for its own sake as a virtue; three he thought he had better things to do with money.

There's also that nothing should look too new. It's the "straight crookedness" of a good walking stick that Frost spoke of.

Also, there is another aspect of the aesthetic that much of what you wear and use ought to be hand-me-downs from family. There's something loving and lovable about that.

Also, there's a quality of beauty that things used over a long period time acquire; a new copper pot cannot ever be as beautiful as a copper pot that's been used for generations.

I could go on forever (and prolly already have) but that touches on the main things.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

SammyH said:


> Very cool
> 
> As to the old dumpy volvo, etc. I dunno how to describe it; it's an aesthetic with a kind of yankee frugality moral undertone. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without." My grandfather used to drive an old dodge that was quite literally, at least to all appearances, held together with duck tape. One he'd didn't like the idea of flaunting wealth; two he liked to be frugal for its own sake as a virtue; three he thought he had better things to do with money.
> 
> ...


To make a clothing comparison, I think if the older volvos/BMWs etc as the worn out tweed sportcoat of cars - has it's quirks, but it's comfortable, reliable, and familiar. Or something like that.

of course, I drive a Hyundai lol.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

orange fury said:


> To make a clothing comparison, I think if the older volvos/BMWs etc as the worn out tweed sportcoat of cars - has it's quirks, but it's comfortable, reliable, and familiar. Or something like that.
> 
> of course, I drive a Hyundai lol.


don't knock it - a Hyundai might look very traddy in the coming years, especially if you take care of it and make liberal use of duck tape, etc. lol  quite serious about that. We have a throw-away culture and it's good to reject that wasteful ethos.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

SammyH said:


> As to the old dumpy volvo, etc. I dunno how to describe it; it's an aesthetic with a kind of yankee frugality moral undertone. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without." My grandfather used to drive an old dodge that was quite literally, at least to all appearances, held together with duck tape. One he'd didn't like the idea of flaunting wealth; two he liked to be frugal for its own sake as a virtue; three he thought he had better things to do with money.


Ah, that explanation helps and I can get behind that idea. It's almost like my daily driver '01 Cherokee. It's gone from new to kind of ok to outdated, and it's now getting old enough to be cool again, or at least a curiosity. Still in really good shape,too. Plus I feel a certain pride in keeping it going, instead of running for a new car at the first sign of potential trouble.

I suppose my issue with the age old "trad car" debate is that the genuine trad/old school/whatever person wouldn't run out specifically seeking the dented Volvo. He'd buy a new one (or mercedes or bmw or whatever) and drive it until it got that way.

I knew a guy in college whose dad was the CFO of a major US company; had multiple houses, the whole bit. He would quietly pick up the bar tab or spot cash if someone came up short, but didn't make a big deal of it. He drove a hand me down late 90s Acura. If you asked what his dad did, it was always "oh, he works at an oil company." We didn't figure out the truth until someone happened upon the company's yahoo finance profile. I like that.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

SammyH said:


> don't knock it - a Hyundai might look very traddy in the coming years, especially if you take care of it and make liberal use of duck tape, etc. lol  quite serious about that. We have a throw-away culture and it's good to reject that wasteful ethos.


Oh i love my Hyundai, the car is ridiculously reliable. I plan on driving it until the wheels fall off lol


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## thegovteach (Dec 2, 2012)

orange fury said:


> Oh i love my Hyundai, the car is ridiculously reliable. I plan on driving it until the wheels fall off lol


Well, I'll get deleted from the forum, but I drive a Honda Element.....my second....a rarity for East Texas....( BTW: It's my second Element. my wife took the first one away from me....)


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

thegovteach said:


> Well, I'll get deleted from the forum, but I drive a Honda Element.....my second....a rarity for East Texas....( BTW: It's my second Element. my wife took the first one away from me....)


Hah, we own two Hyundais as well, my wife's is an SUV though. She owned a late 90's Grand Cherokee V8 when we were in college that had seat holes patched with duct tape, do we get trad points for that? Lol


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

One more observation: CNG vehicles have become very popular here. Mostly I see pickups, tahoes, etc. I suppose that way you can have cargo room and trailer towing power while also cutting way down on fuel costs. A lot of these run on both CNG and gas, and switch seamlessly when you're out of one or the other. I looked into converting our Yukon....~$7000!

Also, the car of choice for the whole foods/yoga/holistic moms around here has increasingly been the subaru. They're no longer such a rare sight.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

mjo_1 said:


> I suppose my issue with the age old "trad car" debate is that the genuine trad/old school/whatever person wouldn't run out specifically seeking the dented Volvo. He'd buy a new one (or mercedes or bmw or whatever) and drive it until it got that way.


There's definitely a bit of pretension about the whole shabbiness thing. Sounds odd, I know, but it's true.

The answer to your implied question is that many of them never buy new cars. My grandfather never did; my father never did; and I never have either (actually, while I've purchased a few used cars, mostly when I was in school and just out of school, now I just use zipcar or a rental agency, lol). This is mostly because it's just not financially intelligent. New cars are a money sink for the most part. That $50k car you bought is a fraction of its value once you drive off the lot.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

There's something else I feel impelled to say about that^.

One of the things that has always surprised me is the way in which people differ about money: what it is and what it does and how to use it.

The term "wealthy" I'll define in this way: a wealthy person's money works for him, a person who is not wealthy works for his money.

Most of the wealthiest people I've ever known have lived in very modest houses, drove modest cars, and generally lived well below, almost invariably VERY WELL BELOW, their means.

Most everyone else I meet who are not "wealthy" do not. They live in houses they can barely afford; drive cars they can only barely make payments on (another mistake), and have too many of them to begin with. Et cetera.

If I had one thing that I could shout from the rooftops, it would be a passage from David Copperfield, the words of Mr. Micawber (surely one of the greatest comedic characters in all of english literature):



> "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."


I just want to say this because I think a great many people are snared by a kind of envy-created cycle of spending and getting; such a thing is all-too-human, of course, but now with 50-odd years of a credit-based economy, it is now easier than ever to overspend beyond one's means.

It's my sincere hope that someone reading this either doesn't go down that^ road, or gets off it.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. Just one trad idiot trying to point to where he thinks the proverbial shoals are.


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## orange fury (Dec 8, 2013)

SammyH said:


> There's something else I feel impelled to say about that^.
> 
> One of the things that has always surprised me is the way in which people differ about money: what it is and what it does and how to use it.
> 
> ...


Excellent, excellent post. There was a pastor in my area that used to be fond of saying: "when your outgo exceeds your income, your upkeep will lead to your downfall". Words I've tried to live by.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

Semi-relevant to the original post, but did anyone else see that Lilly Pulitzer is releasing a collection at Target? If only that included bringing back Lilly for Men.


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

Good post, Sammy. I suppose what I meant was to distinguish one who breaks in his cars/clothes/furniture, etc with honest wear vs. a 'try too hard' type character that buys pre-distressed, for lack of a better term. Authenticity vs. falsified, if you will. I personally wouldn't buy a new car unless I were Bill Gates. Now my "30k millionaire" friends from undergrad living in uptown Dallas are another story....



Reuben said:


> Semi-relevant to the original post, but did anyone else see that Lilly Pulitzer is releasing a collection at Target? If only that included bringing back Lilly for Men.


Yes, and my wife is thrilled. All I ask for is a bow tie in a decent bright print for this summer.


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

orange fury said:


> Excellent, excellent post. There was a pastor in my area that used to be fond of saying: "when your outgo exceeds your income, your upkeep will lead to your downfall". Words I've tried to live by.


 A wise pastor, methinks. Well, you know, sad to say but if we all did this^ the American economy (jobs, etc.) would be in serious trouble. It now depends upon most people spending beyond their means. Still, we can be the happy few who refuse to go along.

:beer:



mjo_1 said:


> Good post, Sammy. I suppose what I meant was to distinguish one who breaks in his cars/clothes/furniture, etc with honest wear vs. a 'try too hard' type character that buys pre-distressed, for lack of a better term. Authenticity vs. falsified, if you will. I personally wouldn't buy a new car unless I were Bill Gates. Now my "30k millionaire" friends from undergrad living in uptown Dallas are another story....


All very true. There's a lot of fakery - to buy something pre-distressed, but otherwise new, for example goes against the core "genuine" ethos of traddiness in my book at least. True what you say about when one is as rich as Croesus too. On that side there's also a kind of conspicuous attempt at a kind of chic shabbiness, when one can very easily purchase a whole lot of new cars. My grandfather's proclivities in this direction were bolstered by his experiences during the Great Depression though.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

On automotive reverse-snobbery, it is partially like the clothing ethos. It illustrates that one bought something meant to last, and was bright enough to do it long ago. Any fool can buy a shiny new car today. 
I wish I could cite specifics, but there was some club racer that did well with old Ford models (A?, T?) and once had a scrape with a fellow racer's Ferrari. While the owner complained about having to send a fender off to Maranello, the Ford man squelched him by pointing out that any idiot could send money and get a new Ferrari panel made, but where the hell was he going to find a radiator for his car?


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Tempest said:


> On automotive reverse-snobbery, it is partially like the clothing ethos. It illustrates that one bought something meant to last, and was bright enough to do it long ago. Any fool can buy a shiny new car today.
> I wish I could cite specifics, but there was some club racer that did well with old Ford models (A?, T?) and once had a scrape with a fellow racer's Ferrari. While the owner complained about having to send a fender off to Maranello, the Ford man squelched him by pointing out that any idiot could send money and get a new Ferrari panel made, but where the hell was he going to find a radiator for his car?


ha! very good points.


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## Z.J.P (Jun 29, 2010)

Update as of today: 636 notes. I'll assume 90% of those are positive. 

That's just over the top to me. There is so much of prep style that I love and wear. But that ends as soon as you get to the attitude.

I am enjoying the car discussion, though. I have a 2007 Ford Escape with 129k miles on it. I think I can push it to 250k. I've debated buying a new car, but I paid for this in full and I really enjoy not having a monthly payment.


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## Odradek (Sep 1, 2011)

mjo_1 said:


> ^+1.
> 
> Re: the Trans Am. Anti trad guilty pleasure confession: I'm an unapologetic muscle car guy, and would gladly take a '77 Bandit T/A. Once I obtain my dream '70 Z/28 (Daytona yellow with 4:10 positrac rear end and exhaust cutouts just for fun), I'll probably be the only guy into both Camaros and bow ties. I guess I just never understood the appeal of a trashed out old volvo.


On the car front, is 1977 the last acceptable year for a Firebird/Trans Am?


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## g3org3y (Dec 30, 2014)

Z.J.P said:


> I am enjoying the car discussion, though. I have a 2007 Ford Escape with 129k miles on it. I think I can push it to 250k. I've debated buying a new car, but I paid for this in full and I really enjoy not having a monthly payment.


My daily driver until last year was a 1986 BMW 3 Series cabriolet. Sold it with 190k on the clock.

Current run around is an old 1998 BMW 3 Series estate. Currently on 160k miles.



SammyH said:


> As to the old dumpy volvo, etc. I dunno how to describe it; it's an aesthetic with a kind of yankee frugality moral undertone. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without." My grandfather used to drive an old dodge that was quite literally, at least to all appearances, held together with duck tape. One he'd didn't like the idea of flaunting wealth; two he liked to be frugal for its own sake as a virtue; three he thought he had better things to do with money.
> 
> There's also that nothing should look too new. It's the "straight crookedness" of a good walking stick that Frost spoke of.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. 

To be honest, I'm quite a tight chap. When it comes to cars - I want to be able to buy it outright. I'm not interested in lease deals/personal finance etc. Moreover I prefer older cars, they're easier to work on and I try to do as much of the servicing work as I can myself. Later this year I may treat myself to an M3 or an M5 but for the time being, the trusty 328i will soldier on (unwashed)!


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Odradek said:


> On the car front, is 1977 the last acceptable year for a Firebird/Trans Am?


1973/Last year of gen 2s (I believe)


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

^1981 was actually the last year for second gen T/As and Camaros.

As far as T/As go, by the time the bandit movies came out, they were already dogs. They could be made a little better with the removal of the smog/EGR equipment, but government regulations and other factors had already killed the performance. Even so, they sure did look cool. 

I personally don't like the looks past '78...I feel like they made a mistake changing the front clip. The last very decent T/A performance wise would have been a '73 with the Super Duty 455. Even it was heavy due to the new 5 mph bumper requirements.


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## Hayek (Jun 20, 2006)

Fading Fast said:


> The preppy kids I knew wouldn't have been caught dead in a Trans Am. They wanted foreign sports cars from the '60s - MGs, Porches. If it had to be American, then - also from the 60s - maybe a Mustang.


Prep tends to refer to east coast prep/boarding schoolers. If anything I think the quintessential car would be a 20 year old hand me down Volvo or perhaps BMW/Benz wagon.


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## Starting Late (Apr 26, 2010)

If there is something wrong with the clothes worn by the people cited by the OP, I fail to see it. I think you guys are reading a bunch of your own prejudices into all of this. Everybody's entitled to wear what makes them feel comfortable, including boots of every description, without getting the kind of comments I'm seeing here. Leave those kids alone.


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## Tempest (Aug 16, 2012)

There is a photo, I believe from stylezetgeist, of a man wearing the military sever cold weather rubber boots known as Mickey Mouse boots. They are meant for extended temperatures of -20 degrees. Is he a dopey fashion victim or just being comfortable?


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## Captain America (Aug 28, 2012)

Weird thread, eh?

I would love to know where the new LL Bean boot fad started. How did this begin. .. EVER begin? It's just so wack.

I took a pass on buying these around 1982; figured my Vasque boots were good for all kind of weather and fit much better. So why are they zombying in 2014/5?

With respect to cars, for some reason I REALLY liked Sylvia Porter's Money Book when I was a high school student. I was WAY involved in personal finance, and trust me, at age 16 when you find out the immediate, horrendous depreciation of new cars it entirely shapes your whole perceptions of car buying.

Nah, old but good model is the way I ride.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Tempest said:


> There is a photo, I believe from stylezetgeist, of a man wearing the military sever cold weather rubber boots known as Mickey Mouse boots. They are meant for extended temperatures of -20 degrees. Is he a dopey fashion victim or just being comfortable?


LOL. The ones they issued us were white...blended in with the snow...paired with our OD arctic parkas and snow pants, it made it harder for the enemy to shoot us in the feet, I suppose?


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## SammyH (Jan 29, 2014)

Captain America said:


> Weird thread, eh?
> 
> With respect to cars, for some reason I REALLY liked Sylvia Porter's Money Book when I was a high school student. I was WAY involved in personal finance, and trust me, at age 16 when you find out the immediate, horrendous depreciation of new cars it entirely shapes your whole perceptions of car buying.
> 
> Nah, old but good model is the way I ride.


Exactly. It IS pretty shocking actually; and to think that many peeps do that for lots of assets that rapidly depreciate. Sad.

I don't know why but I've never heard of her, lol. She looks/sounds absolutely fascinating. Thanks for that reference.


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## LordSmoke (Dec 25, 2012)

Captain America said:


> ...
> 
> With respect to cars, for some reason I REALLY liked Sylvia Porter's Money Book when I was a high school student. I was WAY involved in personal finance, and trust me, at age 16 when you find out the immediate, horrendous depreciation of new cars it entirely shapes your whole perceptions of car buying.
> 
> Nah, old but good model is the way I ride.


Depends on the situation. I have been driving for forty years and have only owned four, four-wheeled vehicles. I keep them until they fall apart. Given this, I like buying new since that gives me full control over lifetime maintenance of the vehicle. That said, only one of the above four vehicles was new, but that was due to immediate financial constraints. Similarly, my wife has had four vehicles in her comparable driving career and three of those were new. Her current one is a 2013 Ford Escape (replacing a 1995 Dodge Neon) and mine is a 2001 Ford Explorer (purchased in '04 with 30k). Since her car is new (she averages about 2k miles per year) and I ride either a motorcycle or scooter unless there it is absolutely necessary to use the Explorer, and barring accident, we may never have to buy another four-wheel vehicle again. But if we do, they probably won't be new.


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## rl1856 (Jun 7, 2005)

My current vehicle is a 2000 GMC Denali with 239k miles- purchased in 03 for about 1/2 of sticker price and about 40k miles.... I have just started to look for another vehicle and will most lilkely purchase another Denali. Like the vehicle and they run forever. My wife just gave up her 2002 MB Wagon with 225k in favor of a VW Touraeg. She wanted something bigger, but not too big and she was bored with the MB brand. The Touraeg is a Porsche Cayanne without the spice and an Audi Q7 without the extra $0 on the bill of sale- seriously the Toureag, Cayanne and Q7 share the basic chassis and drivetrain. I am anxious to see how durable this one is over time. 

In my area, the prep cars of choice are Land Rovers, any model BMW and Lexus or Land Cruiser SUV. Trad cars of choice are Jeep Cherokee, Chevy Tahoe or GMC Yukon. 

Best,

Ross


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## universitystripe (Jul 13, 2013)

Honestly, I believe the intent of the worn-out nature of Trad and Prep is to be a sort of camouflage. If you wear a new Rolex Submariner, drive a new luxury SUV, and buy the house for the statement rather than the space needed, you will attract unwanted attention. I learned my lesson when I was gifted my first new car for graduating university. It was flashy, and that was fun for about 4 months. Then I started receiving really unwanted comments from people I hardly know asking just how much money I have. I'll never buy another flashy item again.


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## Fading Fast (Aug 22, 2012)

universitystripe said:


> Honestly, I believe the intent of the worn-out nature of Trad and Prep is to be a sort of camouflage. If you wear a new Rolex Submariner, drive a new luxury SUV, and buy the house for the statement rather than the space needed, you will attract unwanted attention. I learned my lesson when I was gifted my first new car for graduating university. It was flashy, and that was fun for about 4 months. Then I started receiving really unwanted comments from people I hardly know asking just how much money I have. I'll never buy another flashy item again.


I never owned a flashy (or expensive car), but I have made the mistake of buying some clearly expensive looking clothes and putting a clearly expensive looking outfit together and will never do that again either. I hated the attention and - directed at me by some - anger.

I love that most Trad items, even new, don't scream expensive to the casual observer. Clearly, nut cases like us on this forum can immediately recognize an expensive pair of Aldens or MTM high-end suit, but to most people, they don't raise an eyebrow.

When I see someone driving and expensive car or wearing and expensive item - even if it isn't my taste - I always think good for him or her: it is hard to afford these things and that you worked hard and succeeded, I'm happy that you can enjoy it.

And I really enjoy seeing things that, even though I will never afford them, I really like. I saw a Patek Phillip watch on a man the other day that looked outstanding - understated, timeless, elegant and insanely well made. I enjoyed seeing it - it lifted my spirits. I gave a passing thought to the guy and thought "good for you." But clearly, from my much more limited experience wearing an expensive item - many other people don't think that way.

But back to the real point - I love Trad in part because so much of it is subtle and understated. However, it can be incredibly rich, textured and luxurious, but in a below-the-radar / only-for-those-who understand-it way.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

I wear what I want... when I want... and could give a hairy rat's behind if it ruffles anyone's feathers.


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## Reuben (Aug 28, 2013)

drlivingston said:


> I wear what I want... when I want... and could give a hairy rat's behind if it ruffles anyone's feathers.


Rats don't have feathers on their behinds. Also, I wear what I like as well! As long as the lady approves . . . Sometimes I wear women's things! . . . Because LL Bean made some awesome and oversized needlepoint belts for women. Seriously, the sizing is crazy. I'm wearing a S/XS right now, and I've got a 35" waist.


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## Natty Beau (Apr 29, 2014)

universitystripe said:


> Honestly, I believe the intent of the worn-out nature of Trad and Prep is to be a sort of camouflage. If you wear a new Rolex Submariner, drive a new luxury SUV, and buy the house for the statement rather than the space needed, you will attract unwanted attention. I learned my lesson when I was gifted my first new car for graduating university. It was flashy, and that was fun for about 4 months. Then I started receiving really unwanted comments from people I hardly know asking just how much money I have. I'll never buy another flashy item again.


I think two world wars and a depression, not to mention English influence, left their mark on "trad."


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

So, regarding trad cars, does that mean my 2000 BMW 740iL is Trad because it is a little worn, no longer flashy, and its primary purpose is simply utilitarian? That would mean, my car was not trad when new, but became more trad as it aged?


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

^In my opinion, the BMW e38 is one of the nicest looking sedans of all time. I don't really understand the whole "trad" label, but I would hang onto that vehicle so long as it is running well. I don't think you'll ever see it appreciate in value, but it's a really nice car.


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## Nobleprofessor (Jul 18, 2014)

pleasehelp said:


> ^In my opinion, the BMW e38 is one of the nicest looking sedans of all time. I don't really understand the whole "trad" label, but I would hang onto that vehicle so long as it is running well. I don't think you'll ever see it appreciate in value, but it's a really nice car.


I intend to! AND, when this one finally has to be put to rest, I'm going to find another one. I have had my eye on a few 2000 and 2001 E38s with super low miles. They are getting harder and harder to find.


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## ROI (Aug 1, 2004)

Z.J.P said:


> This kind of makes me sick:
> 
> What makes me laugh is that I just visited the L.L. Bean at Tyson's Corner(which is absurdly huge) and it didn't really feel like some elite place only preppy kids visit.


I've been saying for at least a couple decades that LL Bean is the successor to Sears.

It confuses matters somewhat that Sears tried to regain a piece of that mid-American, reasonably priced, not-too-stylish market by acquiring Lands' End. But, in fact, that's just what it is. When Sears went into serious decline in the 1970's (There are all kinds of reasons why it happened, but no one can deny that it did happen), LL Bean and Lands's End stepped up with moderately fashionable, moderately priced clothing and housewares. They are the inheritors of what was Sears' catalog business through the middle decades of the 20th century. Granted, Sears sold a much wider range of merchandise - appliances, hardware, furniture, automotive supplies and services - and those categories were dispersed over a variety of big-box specialists such as Best Buy, Toys-R-Us, Ikea, Home Depot, etc. But for the purposes of this forum focused on clothing, LL Bean and Lands' End are what Sears once was.


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## plupy (Dec 8, 2004)

Just learned about this new trad clothes ebook and look forward to reading it. https://www.nowandthenreader.com/dr...how-jews-came-to-yale-in-ivy-league-clothing/


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