# Tasers and Law Enforcement



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

There have been a several high profile cases of people being tased with seemingly justification lately. There was a Polish man

-There was the UF student who was Tased after asking a question to John Kerry (see the video of it here) 




-The UCLA student who was tased after failing to produce student ID for campus police (see it here) 




-A Polish man at a Vancouver airport was tased at an airport for acting out of control, and the subsequent shock killed him. https://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/10/18/4585168-cp.html

-Locally, there is a criminal defence lawyer currently suing the Edmonton Police Department because he was tased after he refused to stop taking photos of police subduing a rowdy crowd in a local bar district where there were reports of police using excessive force on the crowd.

It seems that police are increasingly using tasers in any situation to force compliance from people, even if they're non-violent. In Canada the police guidelines usually permit the use of a taser gun anytime a person is an "active resister", in other words uncooperative, regardless of whether they are violent or not.

*Should police have taser guns? Should they be allowed to use them on non-violent individuals? Is the misuse of taser guns turning into the newest form of police brutality?*


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

interesting question...I personally look at cops as a necessary evil...I don't really like alot of them, but society would go haywire without them...there are two sides to the coin here...first off, nearly every cop I've ever known has had some sort of weird short man's complex (even if they were tall)...just a serious axe to grind with the world at large, now that's not to say that I havent encountered a few very cool cops aswell...but to give you an idea, I used to work in a grocery store when I was in HS, and one of the lesser managers was studying to be a cop, he'd actually like try and set employees up so that he could "bust them"...same goes for this dorky kid who used to be a security guard at the hospital where I work...I mean, the dude was always running around with a pissed off look on his face, he must have pumped iron every waking hour that he wasnt at the police academy and at work, he would actually walk around the parking garage issuing fake parking tickets and looking in people's car windows for "contraband", and don't get me started on his "partner" who used to show up to work wearing a kevlar flak (sp?) jacket...so this is the mindset we're dealing with...at the same time, you have to think that these guys do have to deal with some volitile nutbags, we've all heard the stories of the cop who was shot dead during a routine traffic stop or whatever...so you can't hardly blame some of them for taking a "taze first ask questions later" attitude..I'm not really familiar with the case of the Polish man, but it seems like there (aswell as with the other two cases you mentioned), the cops overreacted...but at the same time, I've heard stories from a cop who broke up a domestic violence case where the guy was slicing his wife up with a broken bottle, only to have the wife attack him with the same bottle while he was trying to subdue the husband...so I suppose as a cop, you never know who the whack-a-doo is who's going to become a threat to your life...not saying it's right, and I'm definately not siding witht he cops, but I can kind of understand why they might have over-reacted so much...it seems to me that it was probably just good old fashioned fear...


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I watched both the videos. Did those two guys ever scream like little biatches! Also, from what I could see, as much as they were shouting they were being compliant, they were not. I think police need to be monitored for abuse, but I also think we as a society often put them into almost impossible circumstances. For instance, right now in Phoenix, the airport police are coming under fire for the death of a woman. Her family was shipping her off to Tucson to a jet-set detox place. They put her on a plane alone from NYC, she was wasted, and going irate in Sky Harbour airport. She was handcuffed to a bench or chair and managed to hang herself some how. The family is launching a law suit saying the Phoenix airport police should not have left her alone due to her fragile state of mind. Gee, maybe the people that supposedly loved her should of thought about something like this before they shipped off a spoiled NYC brat for a solo flight to a detox. Maybe a little family company on the flight would have stopped this? Nah, it's all the cops fault.


----------



## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

Anyone in law enforcement in the U.S. will tell you that the escalation procedures they use in restraining someone places tasering them as less dangerous to physically wrestling them to the ground because there is historically less injury done to both the cops and the suspect.

That's just the way it is. If we don't like it we can vote for new sheriffs and police chiefs (or mayors who appoint the chief) based upon their stance on tasering. 

If you know any cops (actually on the street) in a high-crime area ask them if they think the taser has saved lives (on both sides) or not.


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

omairp said:


> .......
> 
> Should police have taser guns? Should they be allowed to use them on non-violent individuals? Is the misuse of taser guns turning into the newest form of police brutality?[/B]


Taser are a great invention, but like all great inventions, they fall into the hands of total morons as well as the honest decent cop's!

Those cops in BC should stripped of their badge and sent of to work as garbage collectors.
They took the cheap, lazy, easy way out without even trying, without even thinking.
Those are the clowns that make all cops look bad!!

The minute they saw the state of that man, they should have had the foresight to know the risks of using a taser on him increased several fold. But clearly they can't or didn't bother to think before using it.

There will always be a few rogue cops that will throw their weight around senselessly, tasers just make it easier for those few who find it empowering! It is just to bad the screening process did not catch those loose cannon cops sooner, or that his partners did not catch on to the signs and turn them in as "high risks" sooner.


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Akajack said:


> Anyone in law enforcement in the U.S. will tell you that the escalation procedures they use in restraining someone places tasering them as less dangerous to physically wrestling them to the ground because there is historically less injury done to both the cops and the suspect............
> 
> If you know any cops (actually on the street) in a high-crime area ask them if they think the taser has saved lives (on both sides) or not.


I have watched cops take people down just by doing the thumb and ear twist, I have watched cops trip up a guy with their night stick and then hold him down for a few seconds until he realizes the game is done and stops.

To just walk up and taser everyone, for any infraction is over the top.
The taser was designed to take down the big strapping bully would not go down without a fight. I don't recall where, but some CDN cops killed an unarmed woman, 98 pounds when wet with a taser. A cop should have known the risk was too with her. Maybe tasers need to come with an A and B setting, many just take the 50,000 volt hit and bounce back like the drunken mad man that will ikely enjoy hurting 6 cops on the way down

Tasers can save lives when used well, but they are not a blanket response to anyone who says no to a cop!! A cop needs to know when it is time for the stick, the taser, a bullet in the chest, or to use his brain, skill and logic in diffusing a given situation.

Don't get me wrong, I am very far from being a "cop hater",
this is a "new" tool for most cops and is being used badly a litle too often.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

The Gabba Goul said:


> interesting question...I personally look at cops as a necessary evil...I don't really like alot of them, but society would go haywire without them...there are two sides to the coin here...first off, nearly every cop I've ever known has had some sort of weird short man's complex (even if they were tall)...just a serious axe to grind with the world at large, now that's not to say that I havent encountered a few very cool cops aswell...but to give you an idea, I used to work in a grocery store when I was in HS, and one of the lesser managers was studying to be a cop, he'd actually like try and set employees up so that he could "bust them"...same goes for this dorky kid who used to be a security guard at the hospital where I work...I mean, the dude was always running around with a pissed off look on his face, he must have pumped iron every waking hour that he wasnt at the police academy and at work, he would actually walk around the parking garage issuing fake parking tickets and looking in people's car windows for "contraband", and don't get me started on his "partner" who used to show up to work wearing a kevlar flak (sp?) jacket...so this is the mindset we're dealing with...at the same time, you have to think that these guys do have to deal with some volitile nutbags, we've all heard the stories of the cop who was shot dead during a routine traffic stop or whatever...so you can't hardly blame some of them for taking a "taze first ask questions later" attitude..I'm not really familiar with the case of the Polish man, but it seems like there (aswell as with the other two cases you mentioned), the cops overreacted...but at the same time, I've heard stories from a cop who broke up a domestic violence case where the guy was slicing his wife up with a broken bottle, only to have the wife attack him with the same bottle while he was trying to subdue the husband...so I suppose as a cop, you never know who the whack-a-doo is who's going to become a threat to your life...not saying it's right, and I'm definately not siding witht he cops, but I can kind of understand why they might have over-reacted so much...it seems to me that it was probably just good old fashioned fear...


Read Nietzsche on "The Will to Power". It will tell you almost everything you need to know about cops and why they become cops. "To Serve and Protect" becomes a punchline.


----------



## Rocker (Oct 29, 2004)

rip said:


> Read Nietzsche on "The Will to Power". It will tell you almost everything you need to know about cops and why they become cops. "To Serve and Protect" becomes a punchline.


What does he say about firemen?

My Brother-in-Law is a cop and very fine person. I'll be pheasant hunting in Iowa next week with a cop who's another outstanding guy. Most cops I've known have been fine. I can think of an incident in the Orange County airport in July where I overindulged in free adult beverages in first class and probably should have been arrested when I reacted to some fool about lost luggage - but was not - even though I was mouthing off to the cops a bit (when I sobered up I was amazed at their restraint). Most cops that have ever pulled me over or aside were pretty damn decent and cut me slack. I've never met one that was on any kind of power trip or had a "short man" complex. I'm sure they're out there, but by and large I respect cops for all the crap and scum they have to deal with. The things they see and deal with are appalling and heart breaking - abandoned children, suicides, domestic disputes, homicides, vehicle accidents with blood/gore/dismemberment/charred bodies, and then just your avergage low lifes - very stressful.

I like 'em and wouldn't trust the opinion of a syphillitic madman.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Paraphrasing Shakespeare, "methinks they protest too much!" If a subject fails to cooperate, fails to comply with instructions issued by a law enforcement officer and they get tased, so be it...they brought it on themselves. In most departments, officers carrying such equipment, are required to experience the effects of such use of force options, as part of their training and certification to carry said equipment. During my career, I was beaten with a nightstick, sprayed with tear gas and pepper spray, and tased on multiple occassions, all in the name of training so that I had use of force options available, less than using my firearm, to quell the vigor of bad actors who wanted to prove how tough they were. Save your sympathies for those who deserve them!


----------



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> PIf a subject fails to cooperate... they get tased,


This is the problem, some law enforcement officers think a taser is a cattle prod, and are willing to recklessly use it on non-violent individuals.

There was one particularly disturbing story on CBC radio the other day that I'll narrate as best I can remember (I looked and I can't find a written article for it.) A 36 year old man, weighing about 100 pounds, with multiple sclerosis who lived independently had a long history of getting evicted from apartments because he would allow homeless people into his apartment on cold nights as he felt sorry for them. Understandably, the landlords weren't happy about this and the risks it posed to other tenants, so they proceeded with evictions. In his last eviction, the police came to have him removed, and entered his apartment while he was sleeping. The officers pulled the blanket off him (he was naked underneath) and *TASED HIM TO WAKE HIM UP. *

After they told him to get dressed, they decided to take him down to the police station (I'm not entirely sure what for, possibly trespassing since he ignored the eviction order.) There they proceeded to process him and insisted he undergo a strip search, he complained saying it was unnecesary since they found him naked and asleep, and saw him get dressed. When he complained and argued, they proceeded to _*tase him again inside the police station*_. Finally when he promised to comply with the strip search, he was getting up (he claims he has trouble getting up quickly because he suffers from MS), the police officers *tased him again for not standing up and undressing fast enough.* He complained of severe pain, and the police refused to let him seek treatment until they released him several hours later. He went straight to the ER where _*he was diagnosed with second degree burns across his chest from the repeated tasings. *_

He's now launched a lawsuit against the city (which particular city in Canada it was escapes me.) But surely no sensible officer can justify tasing a 100 pound unarmed non-violent suspect in custody for "failing to cooperate" in these circumstances.

Police would never dream of punching or kicking someone under such circumstances, but they're free to tase people, which can inflict second degree burns or kill people. In this case, it was beyond reckless, this is police brutality. *When people can get hospitalized or killed over such minor things, than the people need to protest.

*I'm not against cops, and I'm not necessarily against tasers... but I AM against cops being allowed to use tasers on non-violent suspects. It should have the similar standards of use as any other potentially deadly weapon.


----------



## Title III Guy (Mar 18, 2007)

I've watched the "Don't taze me, bro" video a few times and am amused and dismayed by people who take offense to the police use of a taser in such an instance. Amused because I know most of those same critics wouldn't hesitate to taser a person who was fighting _them_, if they thought it would stop the fight. Dismayed because some of those critics are either ignorant of the world or are just cop haters looking to take another anonymous shot from their soft seat cushion. Officers are not paid to slug it out with offenders if there is another choice. There is no requirement that they take the first blow and only strike back when struck, or struggle for needless minutes trying to get someone handcuffed when an alternative is at hand. I can tell you, it is much harder than it looks to handcuff an unwilling subject, at least without someone getting hurt. If a subject is resistant, combative or by his words and actions (such as 'fighting stance') an officer _believes_ he is going to resist, by all means, taser or spray him. The law allows it as a less-than-lethal application of force for good reason: it minimized injuries. I've never tasered anyone because I've been off the streets too long, before tasers became available. But I have OCed a number of people and I did so without qualm or regret. It is that many more fights I didn't have to fight, that many more injuries I didn't sustain, and that many more times I got to go home to my family after another 'tough day at the office.'

None of this is meant to condone unlawful or abusive use of a taser by an officer. In those instances where an officer does use a taser without cause or justification, by all means, fire him, then charge him with assault if probable cause exists. But by far, tasers are a useful alternative to 'hands on' arrest of a subject and offer the best chance for everyone - officer, subject and anyone nearby - to avoid injury and go home in one piece that night.

T3G


----------



## Nicesuit (Apr 5, 2007)

I know plenty of cops that are "decent fellows" to go hunting and fishing and coke and joke with. None of them I would be comfortable with knowing when to use an electrified fishhook on me. "To Serve and Protect" is the very last thing on any of these guys minds as they go throughout their day. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a fact of life. Taser guns are being misused left and right with little restraint and even less thought. And nobody in charge cares. It's all big joke. And eagle2250 the people you are going on about are not the people we're talking about unless, like some of your cohorts, you enjoy employing undue force. Electricity is dangerous no matter how you cut it. Applying 100,000 volts at 3 to 4 amps is no slight matter and these morons are treating it like it's the new form of pepper spray. It's another tool to intimidate people and they're taking advantage of it even though it means loss of life. But hey like your buddies say better tried by 12 than carried by 6 right?


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Geez, omairp, you are making out cops in Canada to be rather jack-booted thugs. Not my memory of them in my first 25 years of life, which I spent growing up in Canada.


----------



## Title III Guy (Mar 18, 2007)

Nicesuit said:


> *Applying 100,000 volts at 3 to 4 amps is no slight matter* and these *morons* are treating it like it's the new form of pepper spray.


From the Taser website:

"Peak loaded voltage: 1,200 V, avg. voltage over duration of
main phase 400 V, avg. over full phase 350 V, avg. over one
second 0.76 V.
Current: 2.1 mA average" [mA is a milliamp, or 1/1,000th of an amp]​
If, Nicesuit, you would like to ponder the above information for a while, and then take a few moments for self-reflection about your post, perhaps you will reconsider who the real "moron" is.​
Thank you.
T3G​


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Nicesuit said:


> I know plenty of cops that are "decent fellows" to go hunting and fishing and coke and joke with. None of them I would be comfortable with knowing when to use an electrified fishhook on me. "To Serve and Protect" is the very last thing on any of these guys minds as they go throughout their day. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a fact of life. Taser guns are being misused left and right with little restraint and even less thought. And nobody in charge cares. It's all big joke. And eagle2250 the people you are going on about are not the people we're talking about unless, like some of your cohorts, you enjoy employing undue force. Electricity is dangerous no matter how you cut it. Applying 100,000 volts at 3 to 4 amps is no slight matter and these morons are treating it like it's the new form of pepper spray. It's another tool to intimidate people and they're taking advantage of it even though it means loss of life. * But hey like your buddies say better tried by 12 than carried by 6 right?*




Hmm, misinformation (what we used to call "lies") about the tazer and a little anti-gun jargon. Do we think someone has an agenda?


----------



## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

Have you ever gone on a "ride-along"? I'm not trying to start an argument. Just for the purpose of explanation, most major police/sheriff depts have a community outreach program where various projects to inform the community of what they do exits. One is the "ride-along" program where you are in the car, next to the officer, for a full shift. I suggest a Friday or Saturday night if you want a decent experience. You will eat lunch with him, you will be behind him when he answers normal calls. He'll drop you on a street corner and call someone else to pick you up if there's danger in the air - so nothing to really worry about in that area.

It opened up a whole new concept called "reality" to me when i did it (twice, thank you.) I give the cops more benefit of the doubt now than i did before from my comfortable armchair playing Monday morning quarterback (not saying you're doing this, but it's certainly what I did.)

If you haven't, then you really need to see both sides of the equation before you can judge. Just my opinion, of course.



Nicesuit said:


> I know plenty of cops that are "decent fellows" to go hunting and fishing and coke and joke with. None of them I would be comfortable with knowing when to use an electrified fishhook on me. "To Serve and Protect" is the very last thing on any of these guys minds as they go throughout their day. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a fact of life. Taser guns are being misused left and right with little restraint and even less thought. And nobody in charge cares. It's all big joke. And eagle2250 the people you are going on about are not the people we're talking about unless, like some of your cohorts, you enjoy employing undue force. Electricity is dangerous no matter how you cut it. Applying 100,000 volts at 3 to 4 amps is no slight matter and these morons are treating it like it's the new form of pepper spray. It's another tool to intimidate people and they're taking advantage of it even though it means loss of life. But hey like your buddies say better tried by 12 than carried by 6 right?


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Do the officers who use tasers have to first have them used on themselves? I know that they do this with pepper spray during training. I have friends who are cops, but none of their departments use tasers.


----------



## gar1013 (Sep 24, 2007)

Laxplayer said:


> Do the officers who use tasers have to first have them used on themselves? I know that they do this with pepper spray during training. I have friends who are cops, but none of their departments use tasers.


Many states they do.

Being a good cop is like being a good motorcyclist: you need to approach it with a sense of paranoia. If you assume that everyone you come into contact with may want to try to do you harm, you will be more careful and probably make it home to see your family. You will also not take any more risks than necessary.

In short, the rule of thumb is to not behave in the manner that would get you tased. A simple, "Yes sir, I am complying with you," followed by actual compliance is in order. If you think you're being treated unfairly, there's a time and place to address it.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I watched both the videos. Did those two guys ever scream like little biatches!


We can always count on you for a little compassion. What always amazes me is just how little compassion we can count on from you.


----------



## vwguy (Jul 23, 2004)

Local news has had two Taser stories this past week, in Madison a cop accidentally shot another cop w/ a Taser and in Green Bay a school liason shot the janitor, whoops & double whoops!

Brian


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Let me share an interesting bit of history. The 158 grain .38 Special, actually a mere .36 caliber descended from that blackpowder bore was the most widely used police cartridge in the USA and several other countries along with it's british cousin the .38-200 or .38 Smith and Wesson with similar 158 grain load for most of the 20th century. These rounds came after a period of established big bore stopping rounds of @ .45 caliber. Why? the great handgunner Ed McGivern demonstrated a .38 spl is the maximum power a user can effectively shoot rapid fire with precision and the easiest to train people with. What also found favour, is the little known belief by police agencies a less lethal, yet more controllable round was preferable, given the all to common event of officers being shot with their own weapons or rounds penetrating walls. Inevitably, the advent of car bandits brought on the need for penetrating rounds starting with the .357 magnum. Today even restricted to handguns, people on both sides of the law face weapons and cartridges of far greater lethality. The object of any police weapon; firearm, nightstick, mace or stun gun is TO STOP the individual from resisting or posing a threat. It is not to kill. I can easilly kill you with a fractured skull from a billy club or sap. This now enters the realm of 'abuse under the colour of authority.' You can do that with your mouth, which a former co worker did to me shortly after graduating from the academy. He's back at our old job, now in Loss Protection instead of building materials. Believe it or not, not all police departments are filled with Nietzche Nightmares.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> Do the officers who use tasers have to first have them used on themselves?


Experiencing the effects of the Taser is part of the training and certification process.


----------



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Geez, omairp, you are making out cops in Canada to be rather jack-booted thugs. Not my memory of them in my first 25 years of life, which I spent growing up in Canada.


I'm not suggesting that all cops are thugs, they certainly aren't, and that has never been my experience. These are all fairly recent reports that have been in the news here. I'm just alarmed by the seeming lack of accountability and regulations around the usage of this dangerous and potentially deadly weapon, in both Canada and the US.

People keep trying to write this off "_thats what people get for not complying_" which is silly. A student fails to produce photo id in a campus computer lab and is essentially electrocuted by the police (thankfully, not fatally in this case.) If the same officers decided to punch this guy in the face for failing to show ID, the officer would be on trial for assault, but instead he shocked him with thousands of volts of electricity with little repercussions. Judging by the students' reaction, the electric shock is far more painful than being punched could ever be. That seems soooo wrong to me.

As well this vagueness about what warrants the use of a taser makes it very easy for rampant abuse. In some jurisdictions it seems that simply not cooperating, even if they don't pose a physical threat warrants being attacked with a stun gun. If law enforcement officers are going to be given a dangerous weapon, they need to be fully accountable for how its used. There seems to be this perception that being attacked with a stun gun is not such a big deal... but I'm guessing the numerous people who have been killed or hospitalized by injuries from stun guns would beg to differ.

I think its time that law enforcement agencies established stringent standards and accountability for the usage of stun guns similar to the usage of other potentially deadly weapons or stopped using them altogether.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip said:


> We can always count on you for a little compassion. What always amazes me is just how little compassion we can count on from you.


rip:

When you have comforted literally hundreds of people on their actual death bed, grieved with their families, been told by a terminal 17 girl that in her head you were the date for the prom she will not live to go to, you will have a right to comment on my compassion. Until then you can just suck me right off until I'm dry. How's that for you? And go report me buddy, you just did a totally unprovoked insult and I'll report your narrow arse right back.

The young, strong, able bodied men in those two videos were being non-compliant with the police and they screamed like little girls when they got tazed.


----------



## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

Nicesuit said:


> ..."To Serve and Protect" is the very last thing on any of these guys minds as they go throughout their day. Taser guns are being misused left and right with little restraint and even less thought. And nobody in charge cares. It's all big joke. And eagle2250 the people you are going on about are not the people we're talking about unless, like some of your cohorts, you enjoy employing undue force.


Over a 32 year period of serving "the public interest", both in the military and in law enforcement, I have been wounded by shrapnel, been shot at, had my jaw broken, had my left shoulder twisted out of joint, tearing loose much of the connective tissue, and incurred a litany of other cuts and bruises...at the hands of these folks you accuse the police of persecuting...and my experience is by no means unique. Somehow I don't see it as the guys I was working with were the ones using excessive force! Nicesuit, why don't you try working a tour or two out on the street? I'll ride with you...it might be fun to watch.


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

One thing that is being overlooked is that the Taser is not really a nonlethal weapon. We have seen that it causes death in a nontrivial number of cases. Consequently, its use is justified only in circumstances in which deadly force is justified.

I support the police, and my experience with law enforcement personnel has been almost uniformly positive. The same is true of the interactions I've observed between my clients with severe mental illnesses and law enforcement personnel. Nevertheless, the attitude that I keep seeing in this thread that anyone who defies or pisses off a cop deserves whatever they get is very disturbing.


----------



## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

I think a taser is like many other tools that a police officer carries - it is helpful when used in the proper situation.

There are probably instances where tasers are used in an inappropriate fashion, just as there are instances where nightsticks (or even hands) are used in inappropriate fashion. I don't think the fact that a tool is sometimes used improperly is a good reason to eliminate the tool entirely.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

eagle2250 said:


> Experiencing the effects of the Taser is part of the training and certification process.


I thought that it was, but I wasn't sure. I'm sure that is a popular day at the academy.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Here's the thing, most people do follow the officer's instructions, so this type of thing isn't going to happen to them. I think of it this way...if an officer is standing at my window writing me a citation, I'm not going to suddenly lunge for the glove box to get my insurance card. Why? Because he would probably think I was reaching for a gun. Because he or someone he knows has probably had someone reach for a gun. It's just common sense. The police have a dangerous job, they don't know who you are, or if you are going to try to harm them or not. I find it hard to understand why people are so quick to criticize the police. It only takes one mistake or oversight on their part, and their life could be over. An officer in a neaby town was killed a couple of years ago after responding to a report of fireworks being set off....a noise complaint, and now he is dead. They have enough to deal with, why add to their stress?


----------



## 16128 (Feb 8, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> Here's the thing, most people do follow the officer's instructions, so this type of thing isn't going to happen to them. I think of it this way...if an officer is standing at my window writing me a citation, I'm not going to suddenly lunge for the glove box to get my insurance card. Why? Because he would probably think I was reaching for a gun. Because he or someone he knows has probably had someone reach for a gun. It's just common sense. The police have a dangerous job, they don't know who you are, or if you are going to try to harm them or not. I find it hard to understand why people are so quick to criticize the police. It only takes one mistake or oversight on their part, and their life could be over. An officer in a neaby town was killed a couple of years ago after responding to a report of fireworks being set off....a noise complaint, and now he is dead. They have enough to deal with, why add to their stress?


I'm a cop lover. I love cops.

However, I don't think people should be tazed without good reason, and being obnoxious is not a good enough reason. Being a physical threat is.


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

too many people here think that law enforcement was historically carried out by andy griffith - that punks used to have kindly officer buy them some chocolate, walk them home and talk with pa. 

before the taser acop would have had to use force that would be much more damaging - twisting an ear, poping a knee, etc. the taser allows cops to treat these assholes gently, and allows these assholes to get home with less damage. assholes the world over should be celebrating the taser.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> rip:
> 
> When you have comforted literally hundreds of people on their actual death bed, grieved with their families, been told by a terminal 17 girl that in her head you were the date for the prom she will not live to go to, you will have a right to comment on my compassion. Until then you can just suck me right off until I'm dry. How's that for you? And go report me buddy, you just did a totally unprovoked insult and I'll report your narrow arse right back.
> 
> The young, strong, able bodied men in those two videos were being non-compliant with the police and they screamed like little girls when they got tazed.


The breadth and depth of your vocabulary constantly awes me. I haven't met the equal since I stopped listening to 10 year olds.

As for your compassion, the Polish man on the video certainly cried like a little girl, as he lay dying from being tazed.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

VS said:


> I'm a cop lover. I love cops.
> 
> However, I don't think people should be tazed without good reason, and being obnoxious is not a good enough reason. Being a physical threat is.


The guy from UCLA didn't have to be tased. All he had to do was stand up. He is told repeatedly to stand up. Maybe the officers should have hog-tied him and just drug him out. 
All this really comes down to is people do not want to be told what to do. This attitude of "who the **** do you think you are telling me not to do something?" is what gets these people in these situations in the first place.

My brother and I were pulled over once, I was 19 and he was 17. We had pulled into a car dealership at night to see some car he wanted to buy. It was probably around 11 pm. Now this was a dealer that left the lights on at night, so people could drive through and look after hours. The ones that didn't want you to do this pulled a few of their cars in front of the entrances. Anyway, two squad cars pulled in a few minutes later. After handing over our information, we were actually pulled from the car, cuffed and held down on the hot hood of my car by one officer while the other searched my car. After awhile the officer uncuffed us, told us they had suspected us of being the car thieves that had been working in the area, and told us to go home. 
Was I angry? Yes, very much so...furious, but I kept my mouth shut, and told my brother to do the same. I could see he was fuming and ready to lash out. The hood was hot, and it was hard not to move. Knowing the pain we could really experience if we resisted, we kept quiet and still. We took note of his badge number and filed a complaint with his department later. No taser, no clubbing, no pepper spray. Sure there are those that abuse their power, but there is also a right and wrong way to handle it.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip said:


> The breadth and depth of your vocabulary constantly awes me. I haven't met the equal since I stopped listening to 10 year olds.
> 
> As for your compassion, the Polish man on the video certainly cried like a little girl, as he lay dying from being tazed.


Please re-read my post. I watched both posted videos, neither of which was of a dying Polish man. The two I watched were young healthy men resisting the police, and at least the library guy kept resisting (can't remember about the other guy and I don't care at this point) even after he was tazed. Makes me think he could not have been affected too much. Possibly you should actually pay attention to what people are saying to you and you would look like less of an arse. rip, you can call me all the names you want, imply I am a 10 year old, etc. but that will not make you one whit less of an arse-hole. In fact, for anyone that is familiar with our two careers, it will just make you look like a larger arse-hole. I have made a career/life out of caring for people vs. your apparently useless life. So really, feel free to comment on my compassion all you want. I'll stack my kharma against your's any day of the week.


----------



## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> Please re-read my post. I watched both posted videos, neither of which was of a dying Polish man. The two I watched were young healthy men resisting the police, and at least the library guy kept resisting (can't remember about the other guy and I don't care at this point) even after he was tazed. Makes me think he could not have been affected too much. Possibly you should actually pay attention to what people are saying to you and you would look like less of an arse. rip, you can call me all the names you want, imply I am a 10 year old, etc. but that will not make you one whit less of an arse-hole. In fact, for anyone that is familiar with our two careers, it will just make you look like a larger arse-hole. I have made a career/life out of caring for people vs. your apparently useless life. So really, feel free to comment on my compassion all you want. I'll stack my kharma against your's any day of the week.


I rest my case. I'm so comfortable in the value of my life to others, I have no need to drag it out for others to validate. It's sad that you seem to have no internal validation for your life. As far as the videos go, there were 3 in the original post, one of which was of a Polish man who died while being tazered. Even if you didn't view that one, the other two show men in pain, irrespective of the reason, men for whom your comments clearly indicate you have no compassion. As for your language, it is too childish to even warrant comment. I'm through with you and with this thread.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip said:


> I rest my case. I'm so comfortable in the value of my life to others, I have no need to drag it out for others to validate. It's sad that you seem to have no internal validation for your life. As far as the videos go, there were 3 in the original post, one of which was of a Polish man who died while being tazered. Even if you didn't view that one, the other two show men in pain, irrespective of the reason, men for whom your comments clearly indicate you have no compassion. As for your language, it is too childish to even warrant comment. I'm through with you and with this thread.


LOL rip, what a pitiful guy you are. I mean, you are truly to be pitied. From twisting the argument (as I very clearly stated it was the two young men resisting arrest) to so belittling, so marginalizing, actual, real caring for people, that you feel it is about me trying to validate myself when I was merely defending myself from an unproked, unneeded, and exceedingly untrue insult from you. Your need to degrade and insult people makes it quite clear to all just how fulfilling your empty life must be as does your shallow attempt at diverting from how devoid your life has been in dealing with real people in a consistent, long term, caring manner.

It is not too late for you though rip. Roll up your sleeves and join the rest of us unwashed masses in helping real people, in real need of compassion. Volunteer to sit with the ill, clean them, change their bedding, help feed them. Or is that a little to real life for a limosine liberal such as yourself?

Oh wait, did I say you are to be pitied? Damn, I forgot I am without compassion. Please strike that sentiment.

And of course, your patented move: once challenged to produce fact, you are "finished" with the thread. Ahh, they should name that ploy after you: The Rip Fact Avoidance Gambit.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

rip said:


> As far as the videos go, there were 3 in the original post, one of which was of a Polish man who died while being tazered.


Actually, I went and followed the link. Much as you always are, you are wrong. No video attached. In fact, at the time of the article, the video had not been released to the public yet. From the link:



> Paul Pritchard's video is to be made public Wednesday afternoon in Vancouver.


RFAG (Rip Fact Avoidance Gambit).


----------



## omairp (Aug 21, 2006)

globetrotter said:


> before the taser acop would have had to use force that would be much more damaging - twisting an ear, poping a knee, etc. the taser allows cops to treat these assholes gently


People who are killed by or hospitalized from unnecessary taser attacks would disagree. If I had to pick between being attacked with a stun gun or having my ear twisted, I know what I'd prefer.



VS said:


> However, I don't think people should be tazed without good reason, and being obnoxious is not a good enough reason. Being a physical threat is.


Exactly. Whats more worrisome than some of these tasings is the inevitable finding of the police's internal investigation saying the officer did nothing wrong in attacking a person who posed no physical threat to anyone.


----------



## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

And this is exactly how policy is changed - public outcry, demonstrations, media pressure. Unfortunately it does take an "incident" to incite people to action. If you honestly believe that being physically subdued by a sworn police officer is better than being tased then shout it from the highest building, call every representative you can and make it known that you will not stand for this anymore.

Police procedure can turn on a dime when public opinion is against it. The police internal investigation cleared the officers in the Rodney King beating (very close to where I live), but they were later found guilty and served prison sentences by a court of law. Policy changed. The choke hold is no longer used due to public outcry. It works. Keep up the fight.



omairp said:


> Exactly. Whats more worrisome than some of these tasings is the inevitable finding of the police's internal investigation saying the officer did nothing wrong in attacking a person who posed no physical threat to anyone.


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Akajack said:


> And this is exactly how policy is changed - public outcry, demonstrations, media pressure........ Policy changed. The choke hold is no longer used due to public outcry. It works. Keep up the fight.


Let us hope.

The Polish government has sent the Ambassador to the Hill about this,
millions world wide saw that video, it was on the main page of the BBC,
a complete national embarrassment!!


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

One aspect about cops that I feel most of the public over look is the very real fact that most cops have a split personality based on the situation at hand.

The same cop that will forget that he has children of his own and risk his life to save you,

is the same cop who will cry when he sees a child killed in some tragic needless accident,

is the same cop who will stay with for for an hour when you are broken down on the highway on a cold winter night waiting for a tow,

who is the same cop who will kick you in the nuts if you cross his path in high stress situation!


----------



## Title III Guy (Mar 18, 2007)

zegnamtl said:


> One aspect about cops that I feel most of the public over look is the very real fact that most cops have a split personality based on the situation at hand.
> 
> The same cop that will forget that he has children of his own and risk his life to save you,
> 
> ...


Great post!!! LOL!

T3G


----------



## globetrotter (Dec 30, 2004)

omairp said:


> People who are killed by or hospitalized from unnecessary taser attacks would disagree. If I had to pick between being attacked with a stun gun or having my ear twisted, I know what I'd prefer.
> 
> .


actually, I don't think that anyone who had expereinced both would agree with you. a taser, in 99.99% of the cases, does no permenant damage. the tools that a cop used, pre-tasers, to achieve the same results typically did more permemant damage.


----------



## Zingari (Jul 9, 2007)

Its a question of Human Rights - TASER as an alternative to being shot with deadly force here in the UK. It gets my vote and no after effects unlike Rodney King! TASER Inc has successfully defended all litigation cases worldwide. If only I bought its shares (stock 10) years ago!

The fact that TASER's carry recording data it is possible to audit every use/duration by time and date.


----------



## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

From the two posted clips it is hard to tell what really happened. The person being tased in both cases sound out of control, but what led them to that. Also, the cops kept yelling to get up, can the person do this so easily after being tased. Their was mass hysteria going on, maybe a more dangerous situation at the UCLA library than whatever it was the offending student was thought to have done. So watching these it seems cruel and as if those using the tasers are out of control, maybe as much or more than the one being tased. Does not look pretty from where I sit. You have a person that is hysterical, police are trained to handle a situation like this, from what I saw they handled it badly.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Years ago the UCLA campus police arrested my dumb brother. He was on a vintage italian racing bike, dressed only in shorts, hair and beard to shame Charlie Manson and clocked doing 105 MPH down the hill at Frat Row. He was arrested, handcuffed and chewed out thoroughly, doubly so when he admited the shorts with the Coast Guared emblem were mine. He faced either a hefty ticket or joining an athletic team to burn off his energy. He joined the crew team and I saw to it the local Lifeboat station hailed him daily with reminders he was being watched.I love small services where everybody knows each other. A University campus is a very vulnerable place with equally vulnerable adolescents. When I saw that fool at the Library being tased I only thought of the mass shootings we've suffered at other schools. I thought of the assorted 'characters' I encountered on campus grounds with no right or altruistic reason to be there. He had no I.D. He had no right to be there.


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

The BC government has called for a full public inquiry into the death, as well the guideline for using a Taser!

Long over due, the Taser has its place in a cops tool bag, but clearly the guidelines need to reviewed. The company issued a nasty press relaese claiming the taser does not kill.


----------



## zegnamtl (Apr 19, 2005)

Now the Feds have ordered their own inquiry.


----------

