# Crockett & Jones Harvard



## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

Anyone own a pair of these? If so, are they a bit more foregiving in the midstep that the Alden LHSs? I own a pair of the Polo (C&J) Tassels that are unbelieveably comfortable shoes.

How would the unlined nature of these shoes affect durability?


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## Tom Rath (May 31, 2005)

Yes, they are more forgiving for most people across the midstep. However, they are looser in the heel. 

Brooks Alden made LHS are unlined, and my pair has held up just fine. If anything, my feet sweat less in them then my lined LHS, and therefore it might even be conceivable that they are in fact more durable than the lined versions.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

The idea is that lined are herder waering for sockless applications - sweat will destroy the lining while exposed leather is more durable.

Harvard is made on 314 last which does not have a tight instep of Alden's Van last.


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*Do we know if...*

C&J uses true moccassin construction to make their pennyloafers like, say, the Bass Weejuns, or are they made more like the LHS, which is considered imitation moccassin, or goodyear/welted?

I'll probably PM Dr. Damage on this as well, as he seems to be the resident expert on shoe construction (or at least know where to get all those helpful diagrams!)


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

I've had a pair of Harvard's for about a year, now. They don't get a lot of wear, being black, and I don't wear black loafers too frequently, but they certainly seem durable enough and are very comfortable on my rather high instep. I've heard tales of unlined shoes having the toe box collapse, but I see no signs of that with these shoes. I can't speak to the issue of lined vs. unlined for sockless wear with them. I've never really been into that look. I have boat shoes I wear without socks, but that's it.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Some photos of the Charlton, maybe this will help a little. They certainly seem to have a more "positive fit" heel than the LHS, but who knows for sure...


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*DD--*

I am clueless here, what is the difference between the C&J Harvard (which is sold by Ben Silver and seems to be their classic penny loafer), and the model you show?

Here is a picture, and seems to show some positive fit attributes, but, again, tough to say.

javascript:PopUp('6119');

Thanks to all for thoughts. Its truely amazing you can come here, ask questions on some random British made penny loafer, and get such fine feedback in just hours!


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Tenacious Tassel said:


> I am clueless here, what is the difference between the C&J Harvard (which is sold by Ben Silver and seems to be their classic penny loafer), and the model you show?


Look closely and you'll see that the toe area of the uppers on the Charlton is made from two pieces of leather, sewn together, whereas the Ben Silver shoe is like the LHS, single piece of leather with decorative stitching that makes a ridge. Both, however, are down-lasted and presumably goodyear welted or whatever.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I can't imagine they're not Goodyear welted.


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*Hmmm...*

to the naked, unknowledgeable eye, there seems to be a big difference between the Harvard I posted above and its triangle midfoot - heel shoe shape, and these:
javascript:PopUp('2418');

which is obviously much more rounded. For the record, I wear these below with great success (hence the username)
javascript:PopUp('2536');

they appear very similar to the ^ shaped heel of the Weejuns (and Harvard) than the LHSs do.


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*OK ----*

I ordered a pair to know for sure...I'll be the ginny pig and report my findings....


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*Very impressed*

I have now worn my new calfskin C&J Harvard's for 2 days, including a late evening xmas party....and am very pleased.

I am really suprised these shoes have not received much attention on the trad forum.

They are very, very similiar to the Bass Weejuns in fit, but, interestingly, the leather is even softer. The fit around the instep is nowhere near as tight as the LHS. Much like the Weejun, the strap it is positioned lower on the foot, and given the tighter heel fit, it doesnt need to be.

Very comfortable fit, and very traditional looks. Its the only loafer I've owned where the toungue and strap are not sewed together and can be easily seperated.

Kind of pricey, but a viable alternative to those that are unable to do the Alden LHS.


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*This picture....*

does them justice:


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I don't suppose they offer those in narrow widths.


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*No --*

I don't think so. Just normal and wide.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Did you get these from B.Silver, or from another source? Do you find that the sizing runs true?


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

yup, Ben Silver was the source (only model in stock in my size).

I have to say they fit a bit snug/narrow, but the leather is so soft and supple, it makes them fit like a glove with no irritation or uncomfort at all.

The first night I wore them, I was hosting a xmas party, and was on my feet for 4 hours straight till 10pm or so. My back was aching but my feet felt great. Even after swollen feet, shoes fit great.

Btw, the tan grain ones I got look 3 months old right out of the box. They are probably my least favorite of the 4 models BSilver sells, but still pretty nice.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Thanks for the details, TT. A very handsome shoe, indeed.

Any forumite whose feet are unusually large or small may be interested to know that the Polo Charlton has been marked down to $140 here, in very limited sizes.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

TT, For a broader selection of this shoe you could contact the C&J store in New York, upstairs from Turnbull and Asser on 57th street. They should be able to get you a cordovan version without any problems. Just be aware that they use British sizing there, so let them figure out what size you need. I assume that Ben Silver just does a size translation rather than having specially sized shoes made up.


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## bigCat (Jun 10, 2005)

egadfly said:


> Thanks for the details, TT. A very handsome shoe, indeed.
> 
> Any forumite whose feet are unusually large or small may be interested to know that the Polo Charlton has been marked down to $140 here, in very limited sizes.


Does anybody know who makes them for Polo?
Or any experience/comments on quality?


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## abc123 (Jun 4, 2006)

hreljan said:


> Does anybody know who makes them for Polo?
> Or any experience/comments on quality?


A unnamned Italian maker. This line is generally considered to be way below its made in England (which are C&J or EG) lines, and probably not worth the price unless at a steep discount. Personally, I would pass on these and look at Aldens or AEs at the same price range, or spring for the C&Js, if its in the budget.


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## Mel (Dec 12, 2006)

*Tassels*

The Alden's are still the classics. I suspect BB's tassels are made by Alden. Polo's don't wear as well. Johnson and Murphy's just are shaped properly


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## rip (Jul 13, 2005)

Reading this thread sent me to my shoe rack; I wore my Harvards last night for the first time in a month or so and I had forgotten how really comfortable they are. Come springtime, I have to get a pair in whisky cordovan from Ben Silver.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Necro thread, but it's silly to lose all the above comments forever. 

What is the size conversion between the C&J 314 and the Alden Van? If you take a wide Alden, is the C&J relaxed enough to tolerate a medium? And what about comparable length?


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

C,
If the 314 is the last C&J uses for the Polo brown shell loafers, then I can say that I take the same size in both, down a half a size from normal. (I looked inside my Polo loafers and didn't see a last written.) I think the Polo shell loafers are a touch bigger in length and width, but the shell and shoe are stiffer in the Polo version because it is lined. The Brooks shell loafers (my only Van-lasted Aldens) are of course unlined.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Thanks. More and more mysteriouser-- implying a bit of Fedexing, or maybe just waiting until I can drop into the shops in London.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Edwin Ek said:


> If the 314 is the last C&J uses for the Polo brown shell loafers, then I can say that I take the same size in both, down a half a size from normal. (I looked inside my Polo loafers and didn't see a last written.) I think the Polo shell loafers are a touch bigger in length and width, but the shell and shoe are stiffer in the Polo version because it is lined. The Brooks shell loafers are of course unlined.


I believe the Polo shell tassel loafers are on a different last than the 314. I've tried on the 314 last and from my observation it is short in the toe box. If you have a wide-ish foot then the 314 can be too narrow. It's shaped very much like a British penny loafer: narrow front end, wide rear end. The LHS is going to give you a better variety of fits, unless you have a high instep (the classic limitation with the Van last).


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

I finally did get the Harvards (whiskey shell from Ben Silver-- it was either that or brown from the shop on Jermyn Street). They are supremely soft and comfortable. Also, for whatever reason with the instep, I am able to take a normal width closer to my usual size. For most shoes, I lean toward a wide fitting, and on the Alden LHS (Van), I take a 10E, which is a size or more shorter than my typical OTR size.

The only weird thing about the CJ, which does have its advantages, is the heel. It is high and deeply scooped, which means that it provides a pretty secure grip on the achilles tendon. Probably a great thing if you were to do a lot of walking or biking in them, and a useful combination with the rest of the shoe's softness and good quality. On the other hand, it does make them harder than the Aldens to get into without a shoehorn, which modestly limits their usefulness for air travel and other situations where ease of access is key. No information yet on whether it wears down socks more than the Van or normal oxfords.


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## mansard_roofs (Jan 13, 2017)

Concordia said:


> I finally did get the Harvards (whiskey shell from Ben Silver-- it was either that or brown from the shop on Jermyn Street). They are supremely soft and comfortable. Also, for whatever reason with the instep, I am able to take a normal width closer to my usual size. For most shoes, I lean toward a wide fitting, and on the Alden LHS (Van), I take a 10E, which is a size or more shorter than my typical OTR size.
> 
> The only weird thing about the CJ, which does have its advantages, is the heel. It is high and deeply scooped, which means that it provides a pretty secure grip on the achilles tendon. Probably a great thing if you were to do a lot of walking or biking in them, and a useful combination with the rest of the shoe's softness and good quality. On the other hand, it does make them harder than the Aldens to get into without a shoehorn, which modestly limits their usefulness for air travel and other situations where ease of access is key. No information yet on whether it wears down socks more than the Van or normal oxfords.


Thanks for sharing.

So what size did you end up ordering from Ben Silver? I take a 9.5E on the Van last and am worried the 10D may be too narrow.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

mansard_roofs said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> So what size did you end up ordering from Ben Silver? I take a 9.5E on the Van last and am worried the 10D may be too narrow.


My English size is 11 E. Ben Silver translates that to 11.5 D American.


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## mansard_roofs (Jan 13, 2017)

Concordia said:


> My English size is 11 E. Ben Silver translates that to 11.5 D American.


Thanks for the reply but I'm a little confused. You went up 1.5 sizes from you Van last size of 10E to an 11.5D?


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

mansard_roofs said:


> Thanks for the reply but I'm a little confused. You went up 1.5 sizes from you Van last size of 10E to an 11.5D?


Sorry-- *11E *Alden, 11E C&J UK. Or 11.5D at Ben Silver.


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## mansard_roofs (Jan 13, 2017)

Concordia said:


> Sorry-- *11E *Alden, 11E C&J UK. Or 11.5D at Ben Silver.


I suspected that was typo. Thanks!


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