# Ebola In America



## Monocle

Living near the city where Ebola has "arrived", I am amazed at the coverage. The news organizations are running every which way to cover the story. Meanwhile, medical personnel are downplaying the whole thing. It's hard to tell if there is or isn't a crisis. I am going about business as usual for now.


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## WouldaShoulda

There is nothing to worry about.

And if someone chops off your head at work, it's just "workplace violence!!"


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## SG_67

I have confidence in our public health system and our overall medical system to contain any threat that may come our way. 

As for the press, I'll let them do what they do. For the most part, we're talking about people who read off of teleprompters for a living, and at times don't do that very well.


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## Chouan

And in the mean time, don't read "The Stand".


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## Langham

It's a horrific, highly infectious disease from which few recover, so the press are bound to take an interest. The worrying aspect is how easy it is for perhaps unwitting victims to spread the contagion absolutely anywhere on the planet.


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## eagle2250

Chouan said:


> And in the mean time, don't read "The Stand".


LOL. One of Stephen King's best efforts, for sure.


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## Odradek

Langham said:


> It's a horrific, highly infectious disease from which few recover, so the press are bound to take an interest. The worrying aspect is how easy it is for perhaps unwitting victims to spread the contagion absolutely anywhere on the planet.


Which is why flights from West Africa should have been locked down several weeks ago. Containment at the source is surely the most rational course to take.

Good thing the US government bought 160,000 ebola-proof hazmat suits a few weeks ago.

*Lakeland Industries Announces Global Availability of Hazmat Suits for Ebola
Manufacturing Capacity Expanded on Product Lines Using Unique Sealed Seam Technology for Added Protection*


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## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> I have confidence in our public health system and our overall medical system to contain any threat that may come our way.
> 
> As for the press, I'll let them do what they do. For the most part, we're talking about people who read off of teleprompters for a living, and at times don't do that very well.


Oh. Like the public health system effectively responded to the AIDS crisis under Reagan? And was ultimately held accountable by the media?


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## Kingstonian

Odradek said:


> Which is why flights from West Africa should have been locked down several weeks ago. Containment at the source is surely the most rational course


Fair enough; but what about all the illegals and asylum seekers?

Just a further consequence of letting the Third World in. TB is a far more widespread disease now they have arrived in numbers.


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## 32rollandrock

Kingstonian said:


> Fair enough; but what about all the illegals and asylum seekers?
> 
> Just a further consequence of letting the Third World in. TB is a far more widespread disease now they have arrived in numbers.


Shutting down airports ain't gonna stop a pandemic.


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## SG_67

32rollandrock said:


> Oh. Like the public health system effectively responded to the AIDS crisis under Reagan? And was ultimately held accountable by the media?


Sorry but that was a completely different disease, with different infection vector and one that had sociological and political angles.


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## Barnavelt

In the last two months or so, when I have had to call 911 to have a patient taken to the hospital ED, the operator reads a stock question asking if the patient has been to Africa in the last 6 months or come into contact with anyone exhibiting symptoms of the ebola virus. It's amazing that the gentleman in question apparently told the staff at the Dallas hospital that he had been in Liberia but he was just sent home with antibiotics. It was a breakdown in the system, but of course at that point he already was back in the US.

Unfortunately with the reactive nature of our leaders I don't see the political will to truly address this issue in any effective way and I hope it doesn't get out of hand. As a former employee at the CDC, I do have confidence in the men and women who are tasked with tracking the disease and determining the best way to contain it.


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## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> Sorry but that was a completely different disease, with different infection vector and one that had sociological and political angles.


OK, then, how about the flu pandemic of 1918?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to name an epidemic/pandemic that did not have sociological and political angles. And, while you might have faith in the public health system to handle any threat that may come our way, my money is on the germs. Insofar as I know, ebola can't be cured, there's no vaccine and it's pretty darn contagious. Now, if we want to do what Cuba did to control AIDS, that's one thing, maybe, but we are not going to do what Cuba did.


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## Shaver

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say "Come and see".

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


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## Odradek

Up To 80 Potential Cases In Texas, 1 In Hawaii


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## SG_67

32rollandrock said:


> OK, then, how about the flu pandemic of 1918?
> 
> I think you'd be hard-pressed to name an epidemic/pandemic that did not have sociological and political angles. And, while you might have faith in the public health system to handle any threat that may come our way, my money is on the germs. Insofar as I know, ebola can't be cured, there's no vaccine and it's pretty darn contagious. Now, if we want to do what Cuba did to control AIDS, that's one thing, maybe, but we are not going to do what Cuba did.


We've come a long way from 1918!

As for AIDS, as horrible and deadly as the disease is, it was hardly an epidemic, at least in this country. Please go back and look at the number of deaths from AIDS during it's most deadly years and it hardly matches deaths from the common flu.

Of course there are sociological and political edges to all diseases but AIDS was a disease that required quite little to control; safe (preferably monogamous) sex and sharing intravenous needles for drug use. In fact, there is evidence that when HIV/AIDS was first linked to unprotected sex and intravenous drug use, there was an uproar from the gay community that they were being singled out for discrimination and that what they were doing had nothing to do with it. And so the band indeed did play on!

Ebola is not really "that" contagious. It's quite hard to get if one uses the proper protocols and those identified with it are quarantined. The problem is that in West Africa, the state of healthcare is abysmal so a virus like this just has a field day.


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## Shaver

SG_67 said:


> We've come a long way from 1918!
> 
> As for AIDS, as horrible and deadly as the disease is, it was hardly an epidemic, at least in this country. Please go back and look at the number of deaths from AIDS during it's most deadly years and it hardly matches deaths from the common flu.
> 
> *Of course there are sociological and political edges to all diseases but AIDS was a disease that required quite little to control; safe (preferably monogamous) sex and sharing intravenous needles for drug use. In fact, there is evidence that when HIV/AIDS was first linked to unprotected sex and intravenous drug use, there was an uproar from the gay community that they were being singled out for discrimination and that what they were doing had nothing to do with it. And so the band indeed did play on!
> *
> Ebola is not really "that" contagious. It's quite hard to get if one uses the proper protocols and those identified with it are quarantined. The problem is that in West Africa, the state of healthcare is abysmal so a virus like this just has a field day.


Do forgive me my obtuse nature but I seem unable to grasp the sense of this paragraph, could I trouble you for a measure of clarification?


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## SG_67

Shaver said:


> Do forgive me my obtuse nature but I seem unable to grasp the sense of this paragraph, could I trouble you for a measure of clarification?


HIV/AIDS, at least in this country, was spread primarily by sexual contact on an unprotected nature, and by needle sharing amongst intravenous drug users. Of course there were incidents of blood transfusion as a vector as well as through natural child birth, but the bulk of transmission, at least in the early stages of the disease were the former two.

Initially, when unprotected sex was identified, there was an outcry from the homosexual community that they were being singled out and there is evidence to suggest that they initially ignored the warnings regarding unprotected sex and continued with this behavior, hence worsening the spread of the disease within that population.

HIV/AIDS cannot really be called an epidemic as it is primarily isolated, and remains so, within a certain subset of our population ( and https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/e...ave-hiv-by-age-50-if-current-rates-continue-w)

I'm not trying to diminish the seriousness of the disease, the suffering of the people afflicted with it nor the impact it has had on the lives of those still living with it and their loved ones. I'm restricting my comments strictly to the public health and epidemiological aspect of it. HIV/AIDS is a disease heavily influenced by social behavior. Ebola, on the other hand, is not so.

The problem with HIV/AIDS early on, is that we didn't even know what it was, the structure of the virus or that it even was a virus. We know what Ebola looks like, we know its genetics and protein structure ().

This is a much different disease in terms of trying to control than HIV/AIDS was and remains. Think of it, we really don't even talk about HIV/AIDS anymore. Whether that's good or bad is a different story. The fact remains that we are able to detect it and we have turned what used to be considered a death sentence into a manageable condition.


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## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> *We've come a long way from 1918*!
> 
> As for AIDS, as horrible and deadly as the disease is, it was hardly an epidemic, at least in this country. Please go back and look at the number of deaths from AIDS during it's most deadly years and it hardly matches deaths from the common flu.
> 
> Of course there are sociological and political edges to all diseases but AIDS was a disease that required quite little to control; safe (preferably monogamous) sex and sharing intravenous needles for drug use. In fact, there is evidence that when HIV/AIDS was first linked to unprotected sex and intravenous drug use, there was an uproar from the gay community that they were being singled out for discrimination and that what they were doing had nothing to do with it. And so the band indeed did play on!
> 
> Ebola is not really "that" contagious. It's quite hard to get if one uses the proper protocols and those identified with it are quarantined. The problem is that in West Africa, the state of healthcare is abysmal so a virus like this just has a field day.


"We've come a long way from 1918." Not sure about that. Certainly, not the case with politics or war. We still gin up stupid wars that kill lots of people for no good reason. Politicians still say anything. Why would the medical community be any different? While I wasn't alive in 1918, I'd wager a fair amount that the medical community put itself up as modern and scientific and quickly catching up with God in terms of having life-or-death power.

You're right, to a point, about AIDS, at least in terms of numbers of deaths and the ability to prevent the spread through individual responsibility. However, the government's response was hardly textbook. The CDC was initially slow to move, and the political response was to marginalize gay people--see Bowers v. Hardwick. It became, in some respects, a game of blame-the-victim when the science proved futile.

As for the power of ebola, it is my understanding that it isn't contagious until symptoms are apparent and then only via bodily fluids. That's still a lot of territory. As I understand it, a fair percentage of these infections are in health care workers whom, I would presume, take precautions but nonetheless end up sick. I think it's a dangerous game to point to one area of the world and say confidently "We're different." Time will tell.


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## SG_67

^^^ We've come a long way in science and medicine. As for politics and war; human nature is immutable and the only difference between us and the ancients is that our weapons are more accurate. 

We're not different in the sense that our physiology is different. Obviously as a society, we are more healthy and lack the same comorbidities as those in less developed countries. Our healthcare system, though, is different and our ability to track, isolate, identify and contain infectious diseases is quite robust. 

I responded to Shaver (please see above) and in response I indicated that we know what Ebola is and what it looks like. We've mapped it and it's a matter of developing anti-virals that can target its structure.

With HIV, we didn't even know what it was, or that it even existed. The other thing about HIV is that it would mutate quite liberally whereas this particular virus, at least for now, appears relatively stable.


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## Langham

One aspect of disease transmission I have often wondered about is the danger posed by air travel. In airliners the passengers are necessarily confined for hours to a sealed chamber in which they must breathe recirculated air, and into which any airborne diseases, as when a passenger sneezes, are automatically distributed amongst all the passengers. It seems a perfect way of everyone sharing out their germs. I always turn off the air vent when flying but that can only make a minor difference. Wearing some form of medicated mask might be a possibility but would probably cause some degree of upset to fellow passengers.


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## SG_67

^The air in the cabin is not entirely recirculated. It's exchanged with outside air and only part of it is recirculated. On modern aircraft, the filtration systems are very sophisticated and will capture even the smallest microbes and viruses. 

True, however, that the cabin is a confined space and it is likely you will be sitting next to a total stranger, perhaps on both sides, at some proximity vs. otherwise and for an amount of time longer than otherwise. The greatest danger of transmission in an aircraft is actually the arm rests and tray tables.


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## WouldaShoulda

Or someone coughing and sneezing on you. 

We all know that never happens.


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## Langham

SG_67 said:


> ^The air in the cabin is not entirely recirculated. It's exchanged with outside air and only part of it is recirculated. On modern aircraft, the filtration systems are very sophisticated and will capture even the smallest microbes and viruses.
> 
> True, however, that the cabin is a confined space and it is likely you will be sitting next to a total stranger, perhaps on both sides, at some proximity vs. otherwise and for an amount of time longer than otherwise. The greatest danger of transmission in an aircraft is actually the arm rests and tray tables.


It saves money, apparently, to recirculate the air - there is some fresh air, but how much may depend on how budget-conscious the carrier is. I often find I develop a cold a few days after flying, which I attribute to the other passengers, but I suppose other reasons might include the change of climate or other stages of the journey - taxis and airports.


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## SG_67

It's not a function of the carrier. It's a function of the aircraft. 

I think anytime, anyone is in such proximity to strangers, particularly on an airplane where people travel together from different parts of the world/country and bring with them certain strains of diseases that we have not developed an immunity for we are in danger.


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## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> It's not a function of the carrier. It's a function of the aircraft.
> 
> I think anytime, anyone is in such proximity to strangers, particularly on an airplane where people travel together from different parts of the world/country and bring with them certain strains of diseases that we have not developed an immunity for we are in danger.


All the experts seem to be downplaying the danger, but when push comes to shove, they say that, yes, you can contract ebola if you are in close proximity to an infected person on, say, a subway. The infected person needs to be showing symptoms, so don't worry, the experts say, because anyone showing symptoms will be sick enough that they'll stay home. Then again, I've known people who wouldn't miss a day of work even if they'd just undergone a double amputation.

The more I learn about ebola, the more I think that preventing its spread relies a lot on common sense. And there a lot of people have no common sense.


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## SG_67

^ A lot of disease prevention comes down to that. 

Of course, it doesn't help when the hospital in Dallas did what they did; turn away a person who came to them saying they were in West Africa, working with Ebola patients, showing symptoms and turned away with an rx for antibiotics!


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## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> ^ A lot of disease prevention comes down to that.
> 
> Of course, it doesn't help when the hospital in Dallas did what they did; turn away a person who came to them saying they were in West Africa, working with Ebola patients, showing symptoms and turned away with an rx for antibiotics!


I would be the last to accuse a hospital of possessing common sense.


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## SG_67

Certainly not that one.


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## Chouan

My American work colleague today told me that the Ebola victim had vomited in the street, and his vomit was cleared away with high pressure hoses, spraying it into the air as a fine mist of droplets ......


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## SG_67

I'm not sure how long Ebola lasts outside a host.


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## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> I'm not sure how long Ebola lasts outside a host.


According to a primer of sorts published by NYT, anyone who remains within three feet of an infected person for a prolonged time is deemed to have been in direct contact--that's close enough, apparently, to breathe in a sneeze, which is enough to kill you.


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## Langham

Chouan said:


> My American work colleague today told me that the Ebola victim had vomited in the street, and his vomit was cleared away with high pressure hoses, spraying it into the air as a fine mist of droplets ......


Inhalation of Ebola vomit - enough to make me puke.


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## 32rollandrock

Langham said:


> Inhalation of Ebola vomit - enough to make me puke.


And the cycle repeats itself. See?


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## WouldaShoulda

It's like the biological version of a perpetual motion machine!!


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## justonemore

Don't worry folks.....Should worse come to worst there's always this option.....


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## WouldaShoulda

Smoke 'em if you got 'em!!


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## herfitup

WouldaShoulda said:


> It's like the biological version of a perpetual motion machine!!


The definition of exponential. Not quite perpetual motion but as close as we get.

Remember the commercial "and they told someone and so on and so on...."


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## justonemore

Duncan is now dead but he lasted long enough to get to the U.S. cause a huge rucus, & have Jessie Jackson come to his rescue. According to good ole JJ, the deceased did nothing wrong & all the errors in handling the case were due to racism as the non-african patients had been offered experimental drugs sooner (different drugs as well I think).

https://downtrend.com/71superb/jesse-jackson-goes-to-dallas-looking-for-racism-in-ebola-scare/


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## WouldaShoulda

US Ebola patient dies...

https://www.businessweek.com/news/2...nt-diagnosed-in-u-dot-s-dot-dies-in-dallas#p1



> While it could be that Duncan got the Chimerix drug too late and that no drug would have worked at that late point, it also may be the Chimerix drug is not as effective as ZMapp or TKM-Ebola, two other drugs that have been tried on Ebola patients, said Thomas Geisbert, a virologist at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston.
> 
> A nephew, Josephus Weeks, said earlier today that Duncan did not receive any serum from Ebola survivors, a treatment given to others who have survived. Kent Brantly, a U.S. doctor who recovered after being infected, has donated serum to at least two other patients.
> 
> Asked in a text-message interview if the family thinks blood serum derived from disease survivors should have been used, Weeks said, "We begged and pleaded several times. They said it's too late in his treatment. They didn't try any other options but saline, oxygen and water."
> 
> Duncan's case has drawn widespread interest, spurring calls by some to limit or better control air flights from West Africa, and opening concerns within the Liberian community in Dallas about the stigma they face. At the same time, the *Reverend Jesse Jackson arrived in Dallas yesterday* with Duncan's mother, Nowah Gartay, to preach tolerance and compassion during a vigil he led.


Here we go!!


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## 32rollandrock

OK, here's what I want to know.

Why do we know this guy's name? Why is his photograph everywhere in the media? Why do we know details about his health, where he has traveled, when he has traveled, etc., etc., etc.? Does HIPPA just go out the window if it is Ebola? If he had been white and wealthy, would we know his name? Have his photograph? Access to his medical information?

Conversely, why don't we know the name of the doctor and other medical personnel who, apparently, screwed up and sent the guy home even though they'd been told that he had recently come from an area with an Ebola crisis? Why aren't their photographs in the media? Why can't I see their records to determine if this was a one-time mistake or one of many treatment errors they've made?

Maybe it is just me, but I would way rather know the names of the doctors who screwed this up than the name of the poor soul who died. That way, I could take steps to ensure that neither I nor my spouse (or my dog, for that matter) are put in the hands of health care professionals so incompetent that they can't recognize Ebola even after being told "Hey, I just got back from Africa and I have all the symptoms of Ebola."


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## justonemore

Well. If you want a large amount of people to be notified of something very quickly (such as the possibility of having come into contact with an ebola patient), then you will use the media system in place to put out the information. It's a bit easier to have 100 people coming to you versus having to track down a hundred people. The government will revoke your rights when they feel it's needed (i.e. search and seizure laws during the boston bombing). 

Is it at all possible that the patient or one of his représentatives waived the right to dr/patient confidentiality? 

How many cases of Ebola have they seen in Texas? Are all U.S. ER staff required to be experts in Ebola?

It seems that this guy was hiding the Ebola factor. From what I've seen, he never pressed the point. "But dr, I'm coming from an ebola ridden country and have had contact with ebola patients"... "to be clear...I handled an ebola patient, traveled here Under false pretenses (for treatment?), and am exhibiting the same symptoms I saw in Africa"... You know something like that? A patient being involved in their care? The best one...."I just left Africa...I must be tested for Ebola"... Heck. I'd refuse to leave the fricken hospital. I'd scream, I'd shout, I'd go on-line, I'd call the radio, T.V. , whatever...

Of course if he had admitted all that to start, there would never be a problem in Texas now would there? ...

Several drs have been quoted using their names. What identification are you clamouring for? I would guess that names and amount of errors will eventually come out as the press and JJ swarm in for "justice". You know, things will be documented, freedom of information requests will be filed, names will be found, and backgrounds checked into. 

Do you know of any national notifications (before this clown came over) stating that ebola is a primary concern for all hospitals/medical staff? It seems to me that any notification would of stated that people departing these countries have been screened. Surely there's more than Ebola in Africa, right?


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## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> OK, here's what I want to know.
> 
> Why do we know this guy's name? Why is his photograph everywhere in the media? Why do we know details about his health, where he has traveled, when he has traveled, etc., etc., etc.? Does HIPPA just go out the window if it is Ebola? If he had been white and wealthy, would we know his name? Have his photograph? Access to his medical information?
> 
> Conversely, why don't we know the name of the doctor and other medical personnel who, apparently, screwed up and sent the guy home even though they'd been told that he had recently come from an area with an Ebola crisis? Why aren't their photographs in the media? Why can't I see their records to determine if this was a one-time mistake or one of many treatment errors they've made?


There used to be a responsible media in this country and questions like yours used to be asked.


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## 32rollandrock

justonemore said:


> Well. If you want a large amount of people to be notified of something very quickly (such as the possibility of having come into contact with an ebola patient), then you will use the media system in place to put out the information. It's a bit easier to have 100 people coming to you versus having to track down a hundred people. The government will revoke your rights when they feel it's needed (i.e. search and seizure laws during the boston bombing).
> 
> Is it at all possible that the patient or one of his représentatives waived the right to dr/patient confidentiality?
> 
> How many cases of Ebola have they seen in Texas? Are all U.S. ER staff required to be experts in Ebola?
> 
> It seems that this guy was hiding the Ebola factor. From what I've seen, he never pressed the point. "But dr, I'm coming from an ebola ridden country and have had contact with ebola patients"... "to be clear...I handled an ebola patient, traveled here Under false pretenses (for treatment?), and am exhibiting the same symptoms I saw in Africa"... You know something like that? A patient being involved in their care? The best one...."I just left Africa...I must be tested for Ebola"... Heck. I'd refuse to leave the fricken hospital. I'd scream, I'd shout, I'd go on-line, I'd call the radio, T.V. , whatever...
> 
> Of course if he had admitted all that to start, there would never be a problem in Texas now would there? ...
> 
> Several drs have been quoted using their names. What identification are you clamouring for? I would guess that names and amount of errors will eventually come out as the press and JJ swarm in for "justice"


^^

Media accounts have been clear: The patient informed his health care providers that he had recently been in Africa in an area where Ebola has been rampant--he made no attempt to hide anything. The accounts I have read have been consistent in this regard. If you had just come from Africa, where you had been in close contact and indeed helped people with Ebola, as this person reportedly did, why would you try hiding that? Wouldn't you tell your physicians everything you could? Where are you getting your information that he concealed his trip to Africa?

The media accounts have been consistent: His treatment providers were informed but failed to take appropriate action. I do not believe in plastering someone's photo on the media so that people can say "Hey, I saw a guy who looks like that on the subway yesterday, I'd better get checked out." Much better, I think, to distribute the name and photo of the patient's treating physician and others who screwed up so that others can avoid these alleged health care professionals and instead find competent care. That way, incompetent doctors and their enablers would have to find new lines of work that do not involve life-and-death decisions.

And yes, there were protocols in place requiring ER's and hospitals throughout the United States to screen for Ebola. That's why what happened at this hospital is so outrageous. There should be real consequences for the people who did not do their jobs and so placed so many people at risk. But watch: We'll never learn their names. They'll never lose their jobs. They'll scream about how they have rights to privacy and employment and all that jazz, and you or I or someone we love will never be the wiser when we walk into a hospital expecting competent treatment.


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## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> There used to be a responsible media in this country and questions like yours used to be asked.


And ignored. But, yeah, someone should be asking these questions and demanding answers that make sense.


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## justonemore

It wasn't a trip...He lived there.

If he was so forthright with the authorities, why were they so eager to prosecute him? You had justice systems from both Liberia and Texas wanting to hammer this guy... Why not explain the lies this guy told (and how he got away with it) before crying about a medical system caught unaware? As previously mentioned, names will come out and people will be fired. There is no need to do so within a day or two. In fact, it's better to keep everyone around so they are available for further questioning as to where the breakdown(s) occured. You're going to get what you want (and I agree to certain extent). 

Ok. Do you have any links as to who he told what? I'd love to see what was on the the hospital admission form. Did he notify his caregiver at each stage of his treatment? 

That you mention something once and only partially(to an admissions nurse?), doesn't really absolve you from all other responsibility does it? Again, why would this guy (knowing what he knew), be willing to be discharged without an Ebola test? "Did you do an ebola test?", " I'm not leaving until I'm tested for Ebola". "you are the (2nd. 3rd. 4th. etc.) person I've spoken to, are you aware that I'm from Liberia and have had contact with ebola patients?"...


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## 32rollandrock

justonemore said:


> It wasn't a trip...He lived there.
> 
> If he was so forthright with the authorities, why were they so eager to prosecute him? You had justice systems from both Liberia and Texas wanting to hammer this guy... Why not explain the lies this guy told (and how he got away with it) before crying about a medical system got caught unaware? As I previously mentioned names will come out and people will be fired. There is no need to do so within a day or two. In fact, it's better to keep everyone around so they are available for further questioning as to where the breakdown(s) occured. You're going to get what you want and I agree to certain extent.
> 
> Ok. Do you have any links as to who he told what? I'd love to see what was on the the hospital admission form.
> 
> That you mention something once (to an admissions nurse), doesn't really absolve you from all other responsibility does it? Again, why would this guy (knowing what he knew), be willing to be discharged without an Ebola test? "Did you do an ebola test?", " I'm not leaving until I'm tested for Ebola". "you are the (2nd. 3rd. 4th. etc.) person I've spoken to, are you aware that I'm from Liberia and have had contact with ebola patients?"...


https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/...-seek-those-who-had-contact-with-patient.html

Since then, the report has been updated, with the hospital shifting blame internally, but the gist remains the same. Everyone from the start seems to have acknowledged that hospital employees screwed up, we're just not allowed to know their names. If it was a doctor, certainly, I think the name should be released as soon as possible so that patients, potential and otherwise, can make informed decisions about providers. Personally, I would have qualms about treatment from a doctor who botched an Ebola screen in the way this one seems to have been botched.

As for him living there, read today that he had been living there, but had come back here to rekindle some sort of romance. And even worse if he'd lived there, because the hospital would have asked him for his address during admission.

Haven't heard anything about prosecutors being interested in the guy. Do you have anything on that?


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## justonemore

Seems to cover quite a few questions. It claims he lied to hospital admissions the first time around as well. I don't have time for 10 resources so as usual it will come down to figuring out who is spinning what, and how.


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## 32rollandrock

justonemore said:


> Seems to cover quite a few questions. It claims he lied to hospital admissions the first time around as well. I don't have time for 10 resources so as usual it will come down to figuring out who is spinning what, and how.


Nope, your information is better than mine, and I stand corrected. Serves me right for not staying better informed.


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## WouldaShoulda

Um, the prosecution rests??


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## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> Um, the prosecution rests??


I've never thought of this as a courtroom.


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## WouldaShoulda

But within a week, a circus?? 

Of course I hope not but...


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## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> But within a week, a circus??
> 
> Of course I hope not but...


Unfortunately, it happens with breaking news events. The fault lies with those, such as myself, who do not keep up on the news.


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## 32rollandrock

Then again, upon further review:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/...ackage-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Seems to suggest here that the problem was at the hospital, and no mention of the patient fibbing--and NYT had recently published a story with essentially the same information as the Post, placing blame on the patient. Who knows what the truth is? Doesn't bode well for our ability to communicate when we need communication.


----------



## eagle2250

^^Attempts to place blame at this point seems a fools errand. We beat this by focusing forward. The principle remains the same, regardless of whether the threat to our respective homelands is Islamic extremists or a deadly virus. The way you win the war is by taking the fight to the enemy. Based on what I am hearing/reading and seeing in the news, it would seem the often maligned USA is the single nation gearing up to do this in a big way! We best protect ourselves by going to the aid of others. Where is the rest of the world in this effort? :icon_scratch:


----------



## justonemore

32rollandrock said:


> OK, here's what I want to know.
> 
> Why do we know this guy's name? Why is his photograph everywhere in the media? Why do we know details about his health, where he has traveled, when he has traveled, etc., etc., etc.? Does HIPPA just go out the window if it is Ebola? If he had been white and wealthy, would we know his name? Have his photograph? Access to his medical information?
> 
> ."


Just to let you know....

Here's an article that gives the names of all the "white and wealthy" American ebola victims (although I'm not sure people serving "in mission" for west africa are "wealthy"). ooops...There appears to be one person that has managed to maintain confidentiality (perhaps he/she is rich?). Pictures are included in the article as are treatment details(medical information).

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/06/health/american-ebola-patients/index.html


----------



## Joseph Peter

Since the thread has gone off course already, leave it to an internet board to shift concerns about people dying of a terrible disease into an argument about rich and poor and black and white with a few oblique references to HIPPA. Meanwhile, people are sick or dying and the disease is spreading. Brilliant.


----------



## Quetzal

Didn't someone who had The Disease just donate blood or something (I really hope that I was misinformed)? What are these fools thinking??

As for Ebola (when I was VERY young, I believed it to be a type of opera; my friend did a report on Ebola in High School, and nearly burst a button when I told him this), there's no way that washing my hands is going to protect me; thank goodness I have no reason (knock on wood) to ride a plane or go to any of the places where people with It are; why on EARTH do they think that it's alright to just go about their lives, contaminating everything in sight?

-Quetzal


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## SG_67

He donated it to someone with the disease. The idea is that Dr. Brantly's blood contains anti-bodies to the virus that can then begin the generation of anti-bodies in the other victim's system (I think he's a news reporter or photo journalist). 

Think of it in the same way as you would a vaccine.


----------



## Quetzal

SG_67 said:


> He donated it to someone with the disease. The idea is that Dr. Brantly's blood contains anti-bodies to the virus that can then begin the generation of anti-bodies in the other victim's system (I think he's a news reporter or photo journalist).
> 
> Think of it in the same way as you would a vaccine.


Well, I was hoping that he didn't donate blood, but if it was intended to be used for another victim, then fine, I guess (imagine if his blood bag was accidently switched; THIS is what I feared). I hope that they cleaned the needle (I'm not paranoid, I just have the odd trait of considering everything to the very last detail).

-Quetzal


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## SG_67

^ Cleaned the needle?


----------



## Quetzal

SG_67 said:


> ^ Cleaned the needle?


Oh, that they used to draw his blood, unless if they did some other thing. I don't feel as concerned now that you've provided some clarification.

-Quetzal


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## SG_67

The protocol is for disposal.


----------



## Quetzal

SG_67 said:


> The protocol is for disposal.


Well, that means that my High School drew blood the wrong way for the Red Cross (that doesn't surprise me; they didn't even insert the needles correctly from what I heard, but I must remember that they were just regular, foolish high school kids volunteering to draw blood). Thank the Lord I never could donate blood.

-Quetzal


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## SG_67

The needle used is disposed of. I'm not sure what your HS was doing unless you went in the 30's perhaps.


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## 32rollandrock

Joseph Peter said:


> Since the thread has gone off course already, leave it to an internet board to shift concerns about people dying of a terrible disease into an argument about rich and poor and black and white with a few oblique references to HIPPA. Meanwhile, people are sick or dying and the disease is spreading. Brilliant.


As the person who brought this up, I think that it is extremely relevant. Based on initial reports, it had seemed that health professionals had screwed up and endangered people, and that still remains unclear. I think that sick and dying people have the right to get the best care possible and make informed decisions about treatment providers. Re-read the thread and you'll see that. And you cannot separate medical care/pandemics from socio-economic and even racial questions/issues. I don't think that the thread has gone off course. At all.


----------



## 32rollandrock

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Attempts to place blame at this point seems a fools errand. We beat this by focusing forward. The principle remains the same, regardless of whether the threat to our respective homelands is Islamic extremists or a deadly virus. The way you win the war is by taking the fight to the enemy. Based on what I am hearing/reading and seeing in the news, it would seem the often maligned USA is the single nation gearing up to do this in a big way! We best protect ourselves by going to the aid of others. Where is the rest of the world in this effort? :icon_scratch:


I'm not sure that a war analogy is apt here, any more than a war analogy is apt when it comes to illegal drugs. Of course we focus on what's next, but we also don't just let bygones be bygones when people charged with keeping others safe botch things. We hold them accountable and put them in jobs where they can't do as much damage. Ebola today, measles tomorrow, misdiagnosed cancer the day after that--I don't want screw-ups working as doctors or nurses.

Between spin and misinformation and hype, it is difficult to know what to believe. I don't think that it's fair to berate people for getting on airplanes. As I understand this, carriers of Ebola don't show symptoms for as long as three weeks. I don't think it's fair to beat up on African nations. I think that SG said it, and he's right. They are utterly and totally overwhelmed, and not just by Ebola. Check out the infant mortality rates and life expectancies in these areas. I don't know for sure, given all the hype and spin, but I don't know that it's accurate to say that the U.S. can beat this by sheer strength of will and spending. We'll know soon enough.


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## SG_67

I would argue that the racial question/issue is completely one that has been made up and not at all a factor in this. It serves as cold comfort for some, but it's really not relevant. That some are calling for a ban of flights from West Africa I don't believe is an issue of race, rather geography. 

As to the issue of our public health system and it's ability to prevent, or under worst case scenario manage, a potential pandemic is an issue. No one is denying that people are suffering from this but as a nation we are interested in our own self preservation. I may remind some that this case was brought home to us because of healthcare workers in that part of the world volunteering their services, so people do care.


----------



## Chouan

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Attempts to place blame at this point seems a fools errand. We beat this by focusing forward. The principle remains the same, regardless of whether the threat to our respective homelands is Islamic extremists or a deadly virus. The way you win the war is by taking the fight to the enemy. Based on what I am hearing/reading and seeing in the news, it would seem the often maligned USA is the single nation gearing up to do this in a big way! We best protect ourselves by going to the aid of others. Where is the rest of the world in this effort? :icon_scratch:


Here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/09/why-britain-sending-troops-ebola-sierra-leone


----------



## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> I would argue that the racial question/issue is completely one that has been made up and not at all a factor in this. It serves as cold comfort for some, but it's really not relevant. That some are calling for a ban of flights from West Africa I don't believe is an issue of race, rather geography.
> 
> As to the issue of our public health system and it's ability to prevent, or under worst case scenario manage, a potential pandemic is an issue. No one is denying that people are suffering from this but as a nation we are interested in our own self preservation. I may remind some that this case was brought home to us because of healthcare workers in that part of the world volunteering their services, so people do care.


Racial questions aside, I don't think a ban on flights is going to do squat. Bugs, it seems to me, have an uncanny knack for getting around regardless of preventative measures--you'd have to seal off all of Africa, it seems to me, and not just flights. No travel anywhere, be it by plane, boat, car or skateboard. How quickly do you think the UN can get something like that up and running? Alternatively, we could seal off the United States, which would, presumably, be easier. No flights in or out, roadblocks on all highways in and out of Canada and Mexico, shoot to kill orders for the Border Patrol as it goes about its business of tracking down illegals. How would we all feel about that?

I don't think the racial issue is a phony one at all, at least so far as it relates to what happened in Dallas. They released the name, address, photograph and a zillion health care details on Duncan that I highly doubt would have been disclosed had he been wealthy and white. This is as much observation as criticism. Whatever happened to doctor-patient confidentiality? Was there a notice on the ER admission forms say, "Everything you're writing down here is subject to release to the media?" I doubt it. And I do think that it's relevant in a country where we're supposed to have equal protection.


----------



## eagle2250

^^(Responding to post #69)

A very informative article. Thank-you, Chouan.


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## justonemore

^^^ I just provided you with a link showing names & pictures of "the whites" you keep mentioning. Post 46 will take you to a cnn article naming....

Patrick Sawyer (black)
Dr. Kent Bradley (white4
Nancy Witbol (white)
Dr. Rick Sacra (white)
Ashoka Mukpo (Yellow?)


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## SG_67

^ How and why his information was disclosed should be investigated, however it's a bit much to suggest that if he had been white things would have been different. This was a big new story and it would have gotten out. I think it's a fallacious argument to make as there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the scenario you described would have developed. 

Air travel is probably the easiest and, probably the most reliable way of getting from West Africa to the states. I doubt the ocean liners set sail from Liberia often to make trans Atlantic voyages. It may not completing prevent the spread, but it will at least limit it and take away one pathway for the spread.


----------



## 32rollandrock

eagle2250 said:


> ^^(Responding to post #69)
> 
> A very informative article. Thank-you, Chouan.


Yes, thank you. But I'm not sure how a military presence helps, given that there is no cure for Ebola. From the article, it appears that troops are supposed to build hospital facilities. That's nice, but what would these facilities really be, other than warehouses for the dying? Meanwhile, how do we ensure that troops don't get infected and unwittingly bring the bug home?

I understand boots on the ground when it comes to shooting wars. I don't get it when it comes to bugs.


----------



## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> ^ How and why his information was disclosed should be investigated, however it's a bit much to suggest that if he had been white things would have been different. This was a big new story and it would have gotten out. I think it's a fallacious argument to make as there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the scenario you described would have developed.
> 
> Air travel is probably the easiest and, probably the most reliable way of getting from West Africa to the states. I doubt the ocean liners set sail from Liberia often to make trans Atlantic voyages. It may not completing prevent the spread, but it will at least limit it and take away one pathway for the spread.


Don't have to take boat from Liberia to U.S. All you have to do is take a boat to some neighboring nation, then hop on a plane to the United States. Or you take a plane to some nation that hasn't put up a quarantine, then you fly to the U.S. Just because you shut down a freeway leading to New York doesn't mean that people stop going to New York. Even as we speak, hundreds of ISIS devotees might be on their way to Liberia to become deliberately infected so that they can come here to infect everyone. Much more effective than suicide bombings.

As for my scenario that it would have been different if Duncan had been wealthy and white, it is, as we know, difficult to prove a negative, but let's say that a relative of George W. Bush, to pick a name out of the air (or someone else with wealth and power), had been the one. I highly doubt we'd have as much information as we got about Duncan. Yes, Ebola is a big story, but there is a way to tell that story responsibly without throwing privacy rights out the window.


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## eagle2250

^^(Responding to post # 74)They will also be providing training for the onsite care providers in procedures that will hopefully slow and quickly reverse the spread of the disease. Things are presently spiraling out of control because onsite procedures are not as effective in this regard.


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## SG_67

^ This was a huge story and as soon as a few reporters had gotten wind of someone being in a Dallas hospital with Ebola, the press would have been scrounging around and someone would have come up with something. Stuff comes out on rich white people all the time, this would have been no exception. 

There is a way to tell the story responsibly, but when was the last time a reporter looking for a scoop acted responsibly?


----------



## 32rollandrock

justonemore said:


> ^^^ I just provided you with a link showing names & pictures of "the whites" you keep mentioning. Post 46 will take you to a cnn article naming....
> 
> Patrick Sawyer (black)
> Dr. Kent Bradley (white4
> Nancy Witbol (white)
> Dr. Rick Sacra (white)
> Ashoka Mukpo (Yellow?)


I'm confused. Who, exactly, are these folks? Went back to Post 46 but didn't grasp it. Thanks.


----------



## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> ^ This was a huge story and as soon as a few reporters had gotten wind of someone being in a Dallas hospital with Ebola, the press would have been scrounging around and someone would have come up with something. Stuff comes out on rich white people all the time, this would have been no exception.
> 
> There is a way to tell the story responsibly, but when was the last time a reporter looking for a scoop acted responsibly?


It happens regularly. There are lots of examples of the media withholding scoops over national security concerns. NYT initially refused, wrongly as it turns out, to print Risen's stories on domestic espionage. It took more than a year for that to get out after the White House somehow convinced NYT not to run the story (I would have made a different decision, but that's me). The first reports on Abu Ghraib were also voluntarily withheld by the media at the request of the government. There are lots of other examples. I'm a writer, and I've withheld pertinent stuff out of concern for consequences. One example: Well known person in the city where I live has been a snitch for the cops, helping out on at least one murder case. I know it--I have it in writing, in fact--but I haven't reported it because you don't out snitches for obvious reasons.

Duncan's name was of no consequence. I agree with you that how information about him got out needs to be investigated and publicly disclosed.


----------



## justonemore

32rollandrock said:


> I'm confused. Who, exactly, are these folks? Went back to Post 46 but didn't grasp it. Thanks.


They are all American Ebola patients who are being treated here in the U.S. (for Ebola). This includes 4 whites. All named. All pictured. All with medical treatments given to the press. Just the same as Duncan. Did you follow the link?

The main difference is that these folks were truthful about their conditions before being brought over to the u.s. They went to designated centers in Nebraska and Atlanta where the medical teams were prepared for them upon arrival.

Duncan on the other hand lied his way into the U.S. & was less than straight forward with the hospital as to his exposure to Ebola. Saying he'd been to Africa is a whole lot different than mentioning the fact that he lived in a house where a brother and sisiter died from the disease. That he had handled the sister. That he had helped bring the sisiter to an ebola ward. That at least 2 other neighbors had been infected from this girl & died.... That's a whole lot of history there that probably would have changed the hospital's original plan of attack.

Photos and information on the caucasian-american (non-african/african-american) ebola patients as shown in the press (despite confidentiality issues)...

https://imageshack.com/i/iqquMfnqj
*Dr Rick Sacra:
Where he was infected: *Sacra had been to Liberia with SIM before and volunteered to go again after he heard that fellow missionaries Writebol and Brantly had contracted the virus, SIM USA President Bruce Johnson said. Sacra was delivering babies at a general hospital in Monrovia when he contracted the virus.
*Where he was treated: *Sacra was flown to the Nebraska Medical Center in Omaha on September 5. The center houses one of just a few biocontainment units in the United States.
*Treatment given: *Sacra was treated with aggressive supportive care, including electrolytes and IV fluids. He was also given a blood transfusion with plasma donated by Brantly, which doctors believe had antibodies that Sacra needed to help his immune system fight the Ebola virus. Sacra also received an experimental drug called TKM-Ebola, which the FDA recently approved for wider use.
*Current status: *Sacra was released from the Nebraska Medical Center on September 25. Though he is free of the virus, his immune system was significantly weakened by the fight. He landed in a Massachusetts hospital with an upper respiratory infection over the weekend and was released Sunday.

https://imageshack.com/i/hlflh7VDj
*Dr. Kent Brantly*:
*Where he was infected:* Brantly went to Liberia with his wife and two children last year to serve a two-year fellowship. He was there initially to practice general medicine, but when the Ebola outbreak began, he took on the role of medical director for the Samaritan's Purse Ebola Consolidated Case Management Center in Monrovia, the capital city of Liberia.
The CDC believes he contracted the virus from another health care worker at the hospital.
*Where he was treated: *Brantly was flown to Dobbins Air Reserve Base in Georgia on August 2 and was taken by ambulance to Emory University Hospital in Atlanta.
*Treatment given: *Brantly received one of the first doses of ZMapp, an experimental drug that had never been tested in humans. ZMapp was developed by the biotech firm Mapp Biopharmaceutical Inc., which is based in San Diego.
*Current status:* Brantly was released from Emory on August 21, free of the virus.

https://imageshack.com/i/extEMPTDj
*Nancy Writebol:
Where she was infected: *Writebol and her husband, David, arrived in Monrovia in August 2013. Writebol guided missionaries and worked with nurses at ELWA hospital, where her husband was the technical services manager.
*Where she was treated: *Writebol was flown to Atlanta shortly after Brantly and was treated at Emory University Hospital.
*Treatment given: *Writebol also received the experimental drug ZMapp before leaving Liberia. She and Brantly also received what's called supportive therapy at Emory, which means supporting the patient's immune system as it tries to battle the infection. This usually involves intravenous fluids to prevent dehydration and shock, blood or platelet transfusions and oxygen therapy.
*Current status: *Writebol was released from Emory on August 19

https://imageshack.com/i/exoEsPPZj
*Ashoka Mukpo:
Organization:* Freelance camera operator for NBC News
*Where he was infected: *Mukpo had been to Liberia before and had been in Monrovia for about two weeks before he started presenting with Ebola symptoms on October 1. In addition to working for NBC, he has worked for other international media, including Al Jazeera and Vice News.
*Where he is being treated: *Mukpo was flown to the United States on October 6 and isolated at the Nebraska Medical Center.
*Current status: *On Sunday, Mukpo's father, Dr. Mitchell Levy, told NBC News that Mukpo was feeling "not that ill." He was able to walk onto the plane with assistance.


----------



## Chouan

32rollandrock said:


> Yes, thank you. But I'm not sure how a military presence helps, given that there is no cure for Ebola. From the article, it appears that troops are supposed to build hospital facilities. That's nice, but what would these facilities really be, other than warehouses for the dying? Meanwhile, how do we ensure that troops don't get infected and unwittingly bring the bug home?
> 
> I understand boots on the ground when it comes to shooting wars. I don't get it when it comes to bugs.


The soldiers are there to build and look after medical facilities ashore, apparently, and there is also a hospital ship, which should be of some use.


----------



## Chouan

SG_67 said:


> Air travel is probably the easiest and, probably the most reliable way of getting from West Africa to the states. I doubt the ocean liners set sail from Liberia often to make trans Atlantic voyages. It may not completing prevent the spread, but it will at least limit it and take away one pathway for the spread.


There are no ocean liners. There are cruise ships, but passenger vessels, in the sense of vessels whose purpose is to transport passengers from one destination to another, apart from local ferries, no longer exist.


----------



## Odradek

Public Health Emergency Declared In Connecticut Over Ebola: Civil Rights Suspended Indefinitely


> *Governor Dan Malloy has declared a Public Health Emergency in Connecticut, authorizing the"isolation of any individual reasonably believed to have been exposed to the Ebola virus."* Simply put, as we noted previously, the State of Public Health Emergency allows bureaucrats to detain and force-vaccinate people without due process - despite not one single case being found in Connecticut.


Meanwhile...

Passenger With Ebola Symptoms Quarantined At Las Vegas Airport


----------



## 32rollandrock

Thanks, and I don't mean to picky, but I'm still not comfortable. In all of these cases, with the possible exception of Sacra, the patients and/or their families spoke with the media--leastways, that's what I saw when I googled. I didn't see any evidence that he or anyone with power of attorney had consented to dissemination of information. I've seen differing accounts on what Duncan told authorities about his exposure. Authorities in Liberia say that he fibbed; it's less clear, I think, about what he told medical providers in Dallas--again, there have been contradictory media accounts.

End of the day, it shouldn't matter whether he fibbed or not when it comes to releasing medical information. I think those are two entirely different matters. You don't punish someone by putting him on Front Street.



justonemore said:


> They are all American Ebola patients who are being treated here in the U.S. (for Ebola). This includes 3 whites & an Asian. All named. All pictured. All with medical treatments given to the press. Just the same as Duncan. Did you follow the link?
> 
> The main difference is that these folks were truthful about their conditions before being brought over to the u.s. They went to designated centers in Nebraska and Atlanta where the medical teams were prepared for them upon arrival.
> 
> Duncan on the other hand lied his way into the U.S. & was less than straight forward with the hospital as to his exposure to Ebola. Saying he'd been to Africa is a whole lot different than mentioning the fact that he lived in a house where a brother and sisiter died from the disease. That he had handled the sister. That he had helped bring the sisiter to an ebola ward. That at least 2 other neighbors had been infected from this girl & died.... That's a whole lot of history there that probably would have changed the hospital's original plan of attack.
> 
> Photos and information on the caucasian-american (non-african/african-american) ebola patients as shown in the press (despite confidentiality issues)...
> 
> https://imageshack.com/i/iqquMfnqj
> *Dr Rick Sacra:
> Where he was infected: *Sacra had been to Liberia with SIM before and volunteered to go again after he heard that fellow missionaries Writebol and Brantly had contracted the virus, SIM USA President Bruce Johnson said. Sacra was delivering babies at a general hospital in Monrovia when he contracted the virus.
> *Where he was treated: *Sacra was flown to the Nebraska Medical Center in Omaha on September 5. The center houses one of just a few biocontainment units in the United States.
> *Treatment given: *Sacra was treated with aggressive supportive care, including electrolytes and IV fluids. He was also given a blood transfusion with plasma donated by Brantly, which doctors believe had antibodies that Sacra needed to help his immune system fight the Ebola virus. Sacra also received an experimental drug called TKM-Ebola, which the FDA recently approved for wider use.
> *Current status: *Sacra was released from the Nebraska Medical Center on September 25. Though he is free of the virus, his immune system was significantly weakened by the fight. He landed in a Massachusetts hospital with an upper respiratory infection over the weekend and was released Sunday.
> 
> https://imageshack.com/i/hlflh7VDj
> *Dr. Kent Brantly*:
> *Where he was infected:* Brantly went to Liberia with his wife and two children last year to serve a two-year fellowship. He was there initially to practice general medicine, but when the Ebola outbreak began, he took on the role of medical director for the Samaritan's Purse Ebola Consolidated Case Management Center in Monrovia, the capital city of Liberia.
> The CDC believes he contracted the virus from another health care worker at the hospital.
> *Where he was treated: *Brantly was flown to Dobbins Air Reserve Base in Georgia on August 2 and was taken by ambulance to Emory University Hospital in Atlanta.
> *Treatment given: *Brantly received one of the first doses of ZMapp, an experimental drug that had never been tested in humans. ZMapp was developed by the biotech firm Mapp Biopharmaceutical Inc., which is based in San Diego.
> *Current status:* Brantly was released from Emory on August 21, free of the virus.
> 
> https://imageshack.com/i/extEMPTDj
> *Nancy Writebol:
> Where she was infected: *Writebol and her husband, David, arrived in Monrovia in August 2013. Writebol guided missionaries and worked with nurses at ELWA hospital, where her husband was the technical services manager.
> *Where she was treated: *Writebol was flown to Atlanta shortly after Brantly and was treated at Emory University Hospital.
> *Treatment given: *Writebol also received the experimental drug ZMapp before leaving Liberia. She and Brantly also received what's called supportive therapy at Emory, which means supporting the patient's immune system as it tries to battle the infection. This usually involves intravenous fluids to prevent dehydration and shock, blood or platelet transfusions and oxygen therapy.
> *Current status: *Writebol was released from Emory on August 19
> 
> https://imageshack.com/i/exoEsPPZj
> *Ashoka Mukpo:
> Organization:* Freelance camera operator for NBC News
> *Where he was infected: *Mukpo had been to Liberia before and had been in Monrovia for about two weeks before he started presenting with Ebola symptoms on October 1. In addition to working for NBC, he has worked for other international media, including Al Jazeera and Vice News.
> *Where he is being treated: *Mukpo was flown to the United States on October 6 and isolated at the Nebraska Medical Center.
> *Current status: *On Sunday, Mukpo's father, Dr. Mitchell Levy, told NBC News that Mukpo was feeling "not that ill." He was able to walk onto the plane with assistance.


----------



## 32rollandrock

This is both helpful and disturbing: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/11/...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

The good part is, Duncan's family is speaking and has provided medical records to the media. The bad news is what's in those records, which show that he had a fever of 103 and was sent home, even after the hospital learned that he had recently arrived from West Africa. The hospital, it seems, still has some 'splaining to do.


----------



## 32rollandrock

Chouan said:


> The soldiers are there to build and look after medical facilities ashore, apparently, and there is also a hospital ship, which should be of some use.


Still seems like a very small thumb in a very big hole in a very scary dike.


----------



## Chouan

This https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/our-or...royal-fleet-auxiliary/casualty-ship/rfa-argus
and more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Argus_(A135) operated by civilians of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Fleet_Auxiliary


----------



## 32rollandrock

Chouan said:


> This https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/our-or...royal-fleet-auxiliary/casualty-ship/rfa-argus
> and more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Argus_(A135) operated by civilians of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Fleet_Auxiliary


OK, a humanitarian mission--that I understand. It's nice that people are going into harm's way to make the sick and dying more comfortable.


----------



## justonemore

And so it continues....Thank you Mr. Duncan

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-health-care-worker-tests-positive-ebola-100052941.html


----------



## Shaver

32rollandrock said:


> Still seems like a very small thumb in a very big hole in a very scary dike.


Is this a thread jack? :devil:


----------



## 32rollandrock

justonemore said:


> And so it continues....Thank you Mr. Duncan
> 
> https://news.yahoo.com/texas-health-care-worker-tests-positive-ebola-100052941.html


No, thank you Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital. According to Duncan's medical records that have been released to the AP, the hospital knew he'd been in West Africa, he had a fever of 103 when he initially sought treatment, he described his pain as an eight on a one to ten scale and they still sent him him home, reportedly on a stretcher:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/...on&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

Eagle is right, we should probably be looking forward, but still. It seems inevitable that someone was going to bring the virus here--if it hadn't been Duncan, it would have been someone else, given that you can carry Ebola without exhibiting symptoms. Given the amount of conflicting information early on about who knew what when about Duncan, I'll reserve judgment for now on whether he was truthful at the Liberia airport regarding whether he had been in contact with anyone with Ebola. But the Dallas end is starting to sound pretty solid: The hospital screwed up big time, and I think that we should be more angry at these so-called health care providers than the victim. You can make a pretty good argument that hospital employees did more to put the public at risk than Duncan ever did.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

This fool should be fired;

Francis Collins, the head of the National Institutes of Health, said the agency has been working on Ebola vaccines since 2001. "It's not like we suddenly woke up and thought, 'Oh my gosh, we should have something ready here,'" Collins told the _Huffington Post_. "Frankly, if we had not gone through our 10-year slide in research support, we probably would have had a vaccine in time for this that would've gone through clinical trials and would have been ready."
Collins said researchers and doctors would likely have been "a year or two ahead of where we are" had research funding stayed on track.

https://time.com/3501744/ebola-vaccine-nih/


----------



## eagle2250

^^Why fire Francis Collins for telling the truth. Frabcis Collins is not the fool in this instance. Fire Congress and the Administration for cutting the necessary funding and preventing agencies such as the CDC to do their respective jobs properly. A lot of things haven't been getting done because of the electorates bad habit of sending fools and idiots to Washington!


----------



## WouldaShoulda

eagle2250 said:


> ^^Why fire Francis Collins for telling the truth.


First, I'm not aware of anyone who has blamed the CDC for not being ready for budgetary or any reason.

Why do you think he is "telling the truth" now, less than a month from mid-term elections a prominent political party is predicted to lose, as opposed to say, before the last election cycle??


----------



## justonemore

WouldaShoulda said:


> First, I'm not aware of anyone who has blamed the CDC for not being ready for budgetary or any reason.
> 
> Why do you think he is "telling the truth" now, less than a month from mid-term elections a prominent political party is predicted to lose, as opposed to say, before the last election cycle??


Was there an issue with Ebola in the U.S. before the last election cycle? :icon_scratch: Seems to me that we have too many foreign welfare récipients sucking out the funding from U.S. programs.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

justonemore said:


> Was there an issue with Ebola in the U.S. before the last election cycle? :icon_scratch:
> 
> Seems to me that we have too many foreign welfare récipients sucking out the funding from U.S. programs.


1) There is only a minor one now and no one has been "blamed" for not being ready.

2) Care to name any?? 

3) Why does the head of the NIH/CDC think only he/the US can develop a vaccine. Surely Europe and Asia can.

Can't they??


----------



## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> 1) There is only a minor one now and no one has been "blamed" for not being ready.
> 
> 2) Care to name any??
> 
> 3) Why does the head of the NIH/CDC think only he/the US can develop a vaccine. Surely Europe and Asia can.
> 
> Can't they??


Yes, I'm sure that Europeans and Asians can develop a vaccine. The difference would be, their vaccines would be widely distributed. Our vaccine would be given only to those who could afford to pay $10,000 for a dose. That's how drug companies work in America.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> Yes, I'm sure that Europeans and Asians can develop a vaccine. The difference would be, their vaccines would be widely distributed. Our vaccine would be given only to those who could afford to pay $10,000 for a dose. That's how drug companies work in America.


Did you actually just say this??


----------



## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> Did you actually just say this??


Yes, I did. Is there a problem? After all, it has been well established that life-saving drugs that cost many thousands of dollars in the United States cost much less overseas. Do you dispute this?


----------



## Shaver

Baxter labs, just sayin' .........

https://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?sid=aTo3LbhcA75I&pid=newsarchive


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> 1) There is only a minor one now and no one has been "blamed" for not being ready.
> 
> 2) Care to name any??
> 
> 3) Why does the head of the NIH/CDC think only he/the US can develop a vaccine. Surely Europe and Asia can.
> 
> Can't they??


Yes, they can.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-08-28-oxford-lead-ebola-vaccine-trial
https://www.theguardian.com/society...volunteer-injected-trial-ebola-vaccine-oxford
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29230157


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Chouan said:


> Yes, they can.
> 
> https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-08-28-oxford-lead-ebola-vaccine-trial
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...volunteer-injected-trial-ebola-vaccine-oxford
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29230157





> A woman in Oxford has become the first British volunteer to be injected with an experimental Ebola vaccine, which, if it works, will be fast-tracked for use in west Africa.
> In an unprecedented move, the untested vaccine has already gone into mass production. Some 10,000 doses are being manufactured by the British drug company GlaxoSmithKline, funded by the Wellcome Trust and the UK government, which are also supporting the Oxford trial.


So by this, one may conclude that a perceived "lack of funding" in the US by our NIH Director, (of course by "decrease" he means a decrease in the increase) has resulted in a two year delay in developing an Ebola vaccine is specious and politically motivated.

F him.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> Yes, I did. Is there a problem? After all, it has been well established that life-saving drugs that cost many thousands of dollars in the United States cost much less overseas. Do you dispute this?


No, I dispute the false assertion that they wind up exclusively in the hands of only those that have 10k lying around.

Or that someone that doesn't have something will sell it to you for less than someone that does have something if only the person that didn't have any had some!!


----------



## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> No, *I dispute the false assertion that they wind up exclusively in the hands of only those that have 10k lying around*.
> 
> Or that someone that doesn't have something will sell it to you for less than someone that does have something if only the person that didn't have any had some!!


Is this anything like Walgreens, then, when I need Advair but they won't give it to me because there's been a screw-up with my insurance and I don't have a spare $400 sitting around so I can buy it myself so that I can breathe?

Or would that be something different.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> Is this anything like Walgreens, then, when I need Advair but they won't give it to me because there's been a screw-up with my insurance and I don't have a spare $400 sitting around so I can buy it myself so that I can breathe?
> 
> Or would that be something different.


Probably something different.

https://www.advair.com/savings-and-...28&google=e_&gclid=CLvfno6urMECFbPm7AodUzAAng


----------



## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> Probably something different.
> 
> https://www.advair.com/savings-and-...28&google=e_&gclid=CLvfno6urMECFbPm7AodUzAAng


I'm not seeing any difference. Are you saying that Walgreens will give me free Advair if I don't have $400?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

No, I'm saying if you can't afford it, I provided a link to Advair as you could be eligible for a discounted rate.

Or, get e free sample at you doctor to hold you over until the RX can be filled normally.

Or give up cable TV and the phone and put it on your credit card like Obama said you could to pay insurance premiums. 

You see, I don't think you or the American people are helpless. 

Despite their/your claim to the contrary!!


----------



## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> No, I'm saying if you can't afford it, I provided a link to Advair as you could be eligible for a discounted rate.
> 
> Or, get e free sample at you doctor to hold you over until the RX can be filled normally.
> 
> Or give up cable TV and the phone and put it on your credit card like Obama said you could to pay insurance premiums.
> 
> You see, I don't think you or the American people are helpless.
> 
> Despite their/your claim to the contrary!!


Oh.

Perhaps, then, you can assist with a problem we've been having with my mother in law. You see, she fell down a flight of stairs on Sept. 6 and snapped both femurs. She is 88 years old. She emerged from nearly five hours of surgery in good condition, but the surgeon was blunt: The one-year mortality rate for a person in her age group with one such fracture is 50 percent, and she has two. She was transferred to a rehab facility within a few days. Yesterday, we learned that they are kicking her out on Thursday. Well, that's actually not true. The insurance company is kicking her out (she has insurance through the state of Illinois as opposed to Medicare). Why? Because she was able to make it 150 feet during physical therapy recently, and that is the insurance company's definition of cured. We just found out this afternoon.

She cannot get out of bed on her own. She cannot go to the bathroom on her own. She cannot negotiate even a single step. Did I mention her age? She is 88 years old with two fractured femurs. And the insurance company says that she's now on her own. Perhaps you agree with the insurance company. I would not be surprised.

What do you suggest that we do? Should my wife and I quit our jobs so that we can stay home and care for her? Should we take out a second mortgage on our house? Asking my mother in law to pay for her own care won't work because she doesn't have any money, which I suppose is also her fault, at least in your worldview.

Since you say that neither I nor the American people are helpless when it comes to paying for health care, I'd like you to explain our options here, because I'm having trouble seeing any. You do seem to have an answer for everything, so what is your answer to this? Whatever it might be, please come up with an answer sooner rather than later, because Thursday is fast approaching. In the meantime, I'm really not much in the mood to hear a lot of nonsense about how the cost of health care isn't an issue in America. Perhaps in your ivory tower it is not, but for many of us who are living in the real world, it is a huge issue. And it doesn't make things any better to hear people like you say that you have the solutions and it is somehow our fault when it is not our fault and you do not have any solutions. Take it from someone who has had to buy a less-effective Advair substitute online (and illegally) from eastern Europe because there was no other option.

In the case of Advair, you do not know what you are talking about, and so I will assume that you also do not know what you are talking about when you assert that somehow, if there was an Ebola vaccine developed in the United States, that drug companies would give it away. They charge up the ying-yang for all kinds of other life-saving drugs, why would this be any different?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> Oh.
> 
> Perhaps, then, you can assist with a problem we've been having with my mother in law. You see, she fell down a flight of stairs on Sept. 6 and snapped both femurs. She is 88 years old. She emerged from nearly five hours of surgery in good condition, but the surgeon was blunt: The one-year mortality rate for a person in her age group with one such fracture is 50 percent, and she has two. She was transferred to a rehab facility within a few days. Yesterday, we learned that they are kicking her out on Thursday. Well, that's actually not true. The insurance company is kicking her out (she has insurance through the state of Illinois as opposed to Medicare). Why? Because she was able to make it 150 feet during physical therapy recently, and that is the insurance company's definition of cured. We just found out this afternoon.
> 
> She cannot get out of bed on her own. She cannot go to the bathroom on her own. She cannot negotiate even a single step. Did I mention her age? She is 88 years old with two fractured femurs. And the insurance company says that she's now on her own. Perhaps you agree with the insurance company. I would not be surprised.
> 
> What do you suggest that we do? Should my wife and I quit our jobs so that we can stay home and care for her? Should we take out a second mortgage on our house? Asking my mother in law to pay for her own care won't work because she doesn't have any money...


1) See if she is eligible for medicaid.

2) Have her move in with you or one of your wife's siblings if she has not already.

3) She can rotate Mom duty with them, or you can work at night and switch off with her.

Whining about taking care of her mother is not attractive.


----------



## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> 1) See if she is eligible for medicaid.
> 
> 2) Have her move in with you or one of your wife's siblings if she has not already.
> 
> 3) She can rotate Mom duty with them, or you can work at night and switch off with her.
> 
> Whining about taking care of her mother is not attractive.


I am going to put this delicately. You are an utter ass.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Might I suggest not asking questions you already know the answer to in the presence of someone who will actually answer them?? 

Take care and try to get some rest.

Sounds as if you are going to need it!!


----------



## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> Might I suggest not asking questions you already know the answer to in the presence of someone who will actually answer them??
> 
> Take care and try to get some rest.
> 
> Sounds as if you are going to need it!!


You're not answering anyone's questions. You are being an ideological ass. Take care, and perhaps some day you'll be in the same boat my mother in law and family are in now. Perhaps then you will understand. You can ask for my advice at that point. I promise I won't come up with flip, asinine responses.


----------



## Odradek

*Ebola screening: Immigration officers shaking hands with passengers at Heathrow*



> Immigration officers at Heathrow have been shaking hands with passengers on the first day of the emergency screening measures for Ebola.
> Reports suggest the screening is being carried out on an "haphazard and voluntary basis" in apparent contradiction of health advice about contact with potential carriers of the deadly virus.
> 
> Travellers on connecting flights from West Africa - where the disease has killed over 4,000 people in Liberia and Sierra Leone - said they were being given the option of being screened for symptoms of the virus rather than being obliged to undergo checks.
> 
> Sorius Samura, 51, a documentary maker who had spent 10 days in Liberia making a film on the crisis, said the British authorities did not appear to be taking the situation seriously enough.
> 
> He said: "I've just come back from via Brussels and our flight was met by an airport official saying we might be screened. "He even shook our hands. That's something nobody does now in Liberia and infected countries, you have to learn not to."


----------



## 32rollandrock

Odradek said:


> *Ebola screening: Immigration officers shaking hands with passengers at Heathrow*


Seems kind of hopeless to me. If a nation really and truly wanted to keep the virus out, it seems that it would have to seal its borders instead of relying on authorities overseas to screen properly and passengers to be honest about exposure and luck in the sense that someone could carry the virus without knowing it.


----------



## Shaver

WouldaShoulda said:


> 1) See if she is eligible for medicaid.
> 
> 2) Have her move in with you or one of your wife's siblings if she has not already.
> 
> 3) She can rotate Mom duty with them, or you can work at night and switch off with her.
> 
> Whining about taking care of her mother is not attractive.


Come on old boy, a joke's a joke and all, this is a tad harsh though.


----------



## Pentheos

32rollandrock said:


> Oh.
> 
> Perhaps, then, you can assist with a problem we've been having with my mother in law. You see, she fell down a flight of stairs on Sept. 6 and snapped both femurs. She is 88 years old. She emerged from nearly five hours of surgery in good condition, but the surgeon was blunt: The one-year mortality rate for a person in her age group with one such fracture is 50 percent, and she has two. She was transferred to a rehab facility within a few days. Yesterday, we learned that they are kicking her out on Thursday. Well, that's actually not true. The insurance company is kicking her out (she has insurance through the state of Illinois as opposed to Medicare). Why? Because she was able to make it 150 feet during physical therapy recently, and that is the insurance company's definition of cured. We just found out this afternoon.
> 
> She cannot get out of bed on her own. She cannot go to the bathroom on her own. She cannot negotiate even a single step. Did I mention her age? She is 88 years old with two fractured femurs. And the insurance company says that she's now on her own. Perhaps you agree with the insurance company. I would not be surprised.
> 
> What do you suggest that we do? Should my wife and I quit our jobs so that we can stay home and care for her? Should we take out a second mortgage on our house? Asking my mother in law to pay for her own care won't work because she doesn't have any money, which I suppose is also her fault, at least in your worldview.
> 
> Since you say that neither I nor the American people are helpless when it comes to paying for health care, I'd like you to explain our options here, because I'm having trouble seeing any. You do seem to have an answer for everything, so what is your answer to this? Whatever it might be, please come up with an answer sooner rather than later, because Thursday is fast approaching. In the meantime, I'm really not much in the mood to hear a lot of nonsense about how the cost of health care isn't an issue in America. Perhaps in your ivory tower it is not, but for many of us who are living in the real world, it is a huge issue. And it doesn't make things any better to hear people like you say that you have the solutions and it is somehow our fault when it is not our fault and you do not have any solutions. Take it from someone who has had to buy a less-effective Advair substitute online (and illegally) from eastern Europe because there was no other option.
> 
> In the case of Advair, you do not know what you are talking about, and so I will assume that you also do not know what you are talking about when you assert that somehow, if there was an Ebola vaccine developed in the United States, that drug companies would give it away. They charge up the ying-yang for all kinds of other life-saving drugs, why would this be any different?


This has not been my experience with elder care.

Three years ago, my father, a GM retiree, had a double by-pass surgery. Post-surgical complications required him to stay in the hospital for approximately 30 days. The total bill was around $125,000. His out-of-pocket expenses were zero. Medicaid picked up the entire tab even though he has the GM retiree insurance. After his discharge, he had a small amount of in-home care and at least three months of cardio rehab, again at Medicaid's expensive, and again with zero cost.

Earlier this year, he came down with nosocomial pneumonia. He spent two weeks in the hospital, followed by two weeks of rehab in a nursing home. Again, another thirty days of in-hospital or in-nursing home care. After release, he had a number of in-house visits, and items purchased for the home (bathroom accommodations, etc.) to help him out. Again, completely at Medicaid's expense. I have not seen a total bill for this, but I suspect that it was in the $50K range. No out-of-pocket expenses.

I'm sorry for your mother-in-law's condition. But there are many options for better care. I would suggest contacting a social worker or someone in a similar capacity. The help is out there. It may take a little bit of elbow grease to find it, but it's there.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Shaver said:


> Come on old boy, a joke's a joke and all, this is a tad harsh though.


It's not a joke and it isn't harsh.

It's the reality of caring for aging parents.

But I wouldn't know because we are vampires and no one in my family has ever gotten old or died!!


----------



## 32rollandrock

Pentheos said:


> This has not been my experience with elder care.
> 
> Three years ago, my father, a GM retiree, had a double by-pass surgery. Post-surgical complications required him to stay in the hospital for approximately 30 days. The total bill was around $125,000. His out-of-pocket expenses were zero. Medicaid picked up the entire tab even though he has the GM retiree insurance. After his discharge, he had a small amount of in-home care and at least three months of cardio rehab, again at Medicaid's expensive, and again with zero cost.
> 
> Earlier this year, he came down with nosocomial pneumonia. He spent two weeks in the hospital, followed by two weeks of rehab in a nursing home. Again, another thirty days of in-hospital or in-nursing home care. After release, he had a number of in-house visits, and items purchased for the home (bathroom accommodations, etc.) to help him out. Again, completely at Medicaid's expense. I have not seen a total bill for this, but I suspect that it was in the $50K range. No out-of-pocket expenses.
> 
> I'm sorry for your mother-in-law's condition. But there are many options for better care. I would suggest contacting a social worker or someone in a similar capacity. The help is out there. It may take a little bit of elbow grease to find it, but it's there.


This hasn't been my experience, either. One way or another, it will be resolved. Her physical therapists, who are certainly in a position to know, say that she's in no condition to go home. Hopefully, that will make a difference. But you don't have to be a physical therapist to know that an 88-year-old woman with two broken legs shouldn't get kicked to the curb like this. It is a matter of common sense, which is wholly absent all too often when it comes to health care in this country. Among other things, what angers me is the effect it has had on her state of mind. She's gone from being in good spirits to being afraid of what will come next, and she feels like she is being punished for making the progress that she has. I can't blame her.


----------



## 32rollandrock

Good news.

Someone somewhere used their noggin and realized that an 88-year-old woman five weeks out from two fractured femurs should not be sent home, so she's staying put at least through the end of the month. Thanks to all who provided advice, suggestions and support. You know who you are.


----------



## Odradek

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/522541395899609088


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Now there is some histrionics for you!!

Dallas County Commissioners will hold a special meeting Thursday at 2 p.m. to declare a disaster over "the potential for widespread or severe damage, injury, loss or threat of life resulting from the Ebola virus."
The declaration could help officials impose new travel restrictions on health care workers who may have cared for the first Dallas Ebola patient, Thomas Eric Duncan.


Developing2nd Ebola Patient Traveled to Cleveland, Back

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins said Dallas County Medical Director Dr. Christopher Perkins will sign a control order that will follow the minimum guidelines outlined by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, blocking those being monitored for Ebola symptoms from using public transportation, including buses and airliners.
It comes after revelations Wednesday that the third Dallas Ebola patient, Amber Vinson, a nurse at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital, returned from a trip to Ohio with a slight fever after caring for Duncan, who died at the hospital last week.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/health/...l-of-Ebola-Health-Care-Workers-279336932.html

Why exercise prudence and common sense when a new law can show everyone "something is being done??"


----------



## 32rollandrock

Is everyone going to vilify Vinson the way that Duncan was vilified? In the latter case, now that the Dallas hospital has acknowledged knowing that Duncan was recently in West Africa when he first went to the hospital yet sent him home with a high fever, it's becoming more clear, at least to me, that a full investigation is warranted along with appropriate sanctions. What Vinson did by boarding a plane was outrageous, in my opinion. What kind of hospital are they running down there, anyway?


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> Is everyone going to vilify Vinson the way that Duncan was vilified?


No.

Duncan lied to get here.

Vinson was cleared to fly by the CDC (allegedly)



> The second Ebola-infected nurse from a Dallas hospital contacted Centers for Disease Control and Prevention officials on Monday to check if she could get on a plane with an elevated temperature, and was not barred from taking the flight, NBC News has learned.
> At the time, the CDC was still considering health care workers who treated Ebola patient Thomas Eric Duncan but wore protective gear to be at lower risk, and based on those guidelines Amber Vinson wasn't warned to stay off the commercial jet, a government spokesperson told NBC News late Wednesday.
> "Vinson was not told that she could not fly," said the spokesperson.


https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/e...mber-vinson-checked-cdc-flight-source-n226961

That puts it back to the CDC.

I wonder how the Director of NIH will blame lower funding following the sequester for this one??

Stay tuned...


----------



## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> No.
> 
> Duncan lied to get here.
> 
> Vinson was cleared to fly by the CDC (allegedly)
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/e...mber-vinson-checked-cdc-flight-source-n226961
> 
> That puts it back to the CDC.
> 
> I wonder how the Director of NIH will blame lower funding following the sequester for this one??
> 
> Stay tuned...


Why do you say that Duncan lied to get here? Because someone at the Liberian airport said so? It's been made very clear that the Dallas hospital knew he'd been in West Africa. It's been made very clear that his temperature when he first visited the hospital was 103 degrees (and kudos to Duncan's family for releasing his medical records to counter spin and obfuscation). It's been made equally clear that they sent him home, apparently without checking to see if he had Ebola.

I don't have to be a nurse to know that I shouldn't be getting on a flight if I've treated an Ebola patient and then develop a fever. If I had been in close, direct contact with an Ebola patient, as this nurse was, and then developed a fever, I would get myself to a hospital pronto and say "Hi, I've got a fever after having been in close, direct contact with an Ebola patient. Could you please test me?" Like the first nurse who went immediately to the hospital after developing a temperature. Whatever happened to personal responsibility and common sense? She trusted the government--the CDC--to tell her what she should do instead of relying on her training and experience? Sheesh.


----------



## Acct2000

32rollandrock said:


> Good news.
> 
> Someone somewhere used their noggin and realized that an 88-year-old woman five weeks out from two fractured femurs should not be sent home, so she's staying put at least through the end of the month. Thanks to all who provided advice, suggestions and support. You know who you are.


Great news. I wish the best for your mother!!


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> Whatever happened to personal responsibility and common sense? She trusted the government--the CDC--to tell her what she should do instead of relying on her training and experience? Sheesh.


That's a good point!!

But back to the original question; Is everyone going to vilify Vinson??

I won't.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Will I vilify Collins of the NIH and every ghoul that exploits the tragedy to score political points??

You bet I will!!

_"Republican cuts kill"_
*- new Web ad by the Agenda Project Action Fund*
This ad is simply a more extreme version of a new Democratic talking point - that GOP budget cuts have harmed the nation's ability to handle the Ebola outbreak. It mixes statistics - the budget for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) "cut" $585 million (the ad offers no date range) - with disturbing images of the outbreak and various Republican leaders saying variations of the word "cut."
A slightly more nuanced version of this theme was launched by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which in online advertising began to equate a congressional budget vote in 2011 with a vote for the House GOP budget in 2014 that supposedly protected special interests.

This line of attack was prompted by remarks by National Institutes of Health (NIH) Director Francis Collins, who told the Huffington Post that the agency has been working on an Ebola vaccine for more than a decade but was hampered by shrinking budgets. "Frankly, if we had not gone through our 10-year slide in research support, we probably would have had a vaccine in time for this that would've gone through clinical trials and would have been ready," Collins said.

The Pinocchio Test On many levels, this line of attack is absurd.
Obama's Republican predecessor oversaw big increases in public-health sector spending, and both Democrats and Republicans in recent years have broadly supported efforts to rein in federal spending. Sequestration resulted from a bipartisan agreement. In some years, Congress has allocated more money for NIH and CDC than the Obama administration requested. Meanwhile, contrary to the suggestion of the DCCC ad, there never was a specific vote on funding to prevent Ebola.
There's no doubt that spending has been cut, or at least failed to keep pace with inflation, but the fingerprints of both parties are on the knives. This blame game earns Four Pinocchios.
Four Pinocchios


----------



## vpkozel

Does anyone have a link to a good site for the timeline and facts of the events? From what I have seen so far, anyone looking to blame anyone for all of this is probably using the old hindsight crystal ball. Anyone who has ever been to a hospital knows that you are asked a million questions by pretty much everyone you speak to, but not all of those make it into the medical records or to the next person in line. 

I will however say that the CDC has looked absolutely comically idiotic in all of this - specifically by saying it is Ebola can't be spread by anything other than contact with bodily fluids, then having that to be shown as false by multiple different sources.


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> Does anyone have a link to a good site for the timeline and facts of the events? From what I have seen so far, anyone looking to blame anyone for all of this is probably using the old hindsight crystal ball. Anyone who has ever been to a hospital knows that you are asked a million questions by pretty much everyone you speak to, but not all of those make it into the medical records or to the next person in line.
> 
> I will however say that the CDC has looked absolutely comically idiotic in all of this - specifically by saying it is Ebola can't be spread by anything other than contact with bodily fluids, then having that to be shown as false by multiple different sources.


I found this story from a nurse with firsthand knowledge to be more than a little chilling. And I think that she should be admired for speaking up. We need people like her to counter the spin and the crap we too-often get from official sources doing the CYA routine:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/us/controls-poor-at-hospital-nurse-says.html?ref=us&_r=0

I think that this column from one of Duncan's relatives is worth thinking about:

The pertinent excerpt: "But he was a man of color with no health insurance and no means to pay for treatment, so within hours he was released with some antibiotics and Tylenol."

Keep in mind that Duncan's family has released all of his medical records to the Associated Press. That says a lot, in my opinion.


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> I found this story from a nurse with firsthand knowledge to be more than a little chilling. And I think that she should be admired for speaking up. We need people like her to counter the spin and the crap we too-often get from official sources doing the CYA routine:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/us/controls-poor-at-hospital-nurse-says.html?ref=us&_r=0
> 
> I think that this column from one of Duncan's relatives is worth thinking about:
> 
> The pertinent excerpt: "But he was a man of color with no health insurance and no means to pay for treatment, so within hours he was released with some antibiotics and Tylenol."
> 
> Keep in mind that Duncan's family has released all of his medical records to the Associated Press. That says a lot, in my opinion.


No offence, but 2 opinion pieces - both from folks with obvious conflicts of interest - is not really what I was looking for.

I was hoping to know facts like, what was his temp when he went in the first time? Who specifically did he speak to about his trip to Liberia? Was that notated in his chart (if that chart is available)? What was CDC's recommendation for each of the 3 people's treatment?

There are plenty of inflammatory half truths like "...he was a man of color with no health insurance and no means to pay for treatment, so within hours he was released with some antibiotics and Tylenol." I mean, even the thought that a hospital would do that knowing that the guy had Ebola is just plain idiotic for so many reasons.

Since y'all have discussed this, I was hoping to get info here, but I guess I will research it on my own.


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## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> No offence, but 2 opinion pieces - both from folks with obvious conflicts of interest - is not really what I was looking for.
> 
> I was hoping to know facts like, what was his temp when he went in the first time? Who specifically did he speak to about his trip to Liberia? Was that notated in his chart (if that chart is available)? What was CDC's recommendation for each of the 3 people's treatment?
> 
> There are plenty of inflammatory half truths like "...he was a man of color with no health insurance and no means to pay for treatment, so within hours he was released with some antibiotics and Tylenol." I mean, even the thought that a hospital would do that knowing that the guy had Ebola is just plain idiotic for so many reasons.
> 
> Since y'all have discussed this, I was hoping to get info here, but I guess I will research it on my own.


Since when is an interview with a nurse an opinion piece? What is her conflict of interest? She put her job in jeopardy, for crying out loud. Duncan's relatives, like it or not, have been more forthcoming than the hospital.

I think your head is very deep in the sand, my friend. His temp the first time was 103. We didn't know that until his relatives released the records, and records don't lie. People do.


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## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> Since when is an interview with a nurse an opinion piece? What is her conflict of interest? She put her job in jeopardy, for crying out loud. Duncan's relatives, like it or not, have been more forthcoming than the hospital.


In this environment where everyone is looking to put blame on everyone else, you really have to ask what her conflict of interest is? I am not saying she is wrong or right - I am saying that taking only one person's point of view at total face value is not exactly the wisest course of action when everyone is breaking their arms trying to point fingers so quickly.



> I think your head is very deep in the sand, my friend. His temp the first time was 103. We didn't know that until his relatives released the records, and records don't lie. People do.


Thanks for your concern, but I obviously disagree. In fact, I would say it is yours who is buried. I am seeking facts from as many - and with as little bias as possible - sources that can be found. I finally di find the medical records here - - and yes, his temp was 103, then 30 minutes later it was 101, or a degree above where it was when he arrived. Also, having read the medical records, they did a full battery of tests for the most likely causes, and all of them came up negative.

The records also reveal an extremely crucial detail - that he and his companion said that he was local and had not been in contact with sick people.

So based on the medical records, exactly what should the hospital have done?


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## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> In this environment where everyone is looking to put blame on everyone else, you really have to ask what her conflict of interest is? I am not saying she is wrong or right - I am saying that taking only one person's point of view at total face value is not exactly the wisest course of action when everyone is breaking their arms trying to point fingers so quickly.
> 
> Thanks for your concern, but I obviously disagree. In fact, I would say it is yours who is buried. I am seeking facts from as many - and with as little bias as possible - sources that can be found. I finally di find the medical records here - - and yes, his temp was 103, then 30 minutes later it was 101, or a degree above where it was when he arrived. Also, having read the medical records, they did a full battery of tests for the most likely causes, and all of them came up negative.
> 
> The records also reveal an extremely crucial detail - that he and his companion said that he was local and had not been in contact with sick people.
> 
> So based on the medical records, exactly what should the hospital have done?


Her lack of conflict of interest is pretty obvious, I'd say. She's an employee. She criticized her employer in a pretty powerful way, in one of the world's largest newspapers. That, to me, seems courageous. Since you are the one who says that she has a conflict of interest, what, exactly, is that conflict? Why are you, who are not in a position to know what happened, discounting someone who was in a position to know what happened?

You say you've read the medical records, but I'm not seeing them in the provided link. There are 1,400 pages, according to the Associated Press. The link you provided states that the hospital was told on the first visit that he'd been to Africa recently. He had a temperature of 103. Hospitals nationwide were supposed to be on alert for Ebola. I think it's pretty dang obvious what the hospital should have done: They should have freakin' tested him for Ebola. He also said the pain was eight on a scale of one to ten. If you're not outraged, you should be. It's tough to prove a negative, but if he'd had health insurance, I highly doubt that he would have been sent home with Tylenol with a 101 degree fever and that kind of pain and that kind of history (travel to Africa) and a failure to diagnose what ailed him.

Why do you seem to think that the nurse and the relatives of Duncan are lying? The part about his 103 degree temperature and the fact that the hospital had been informed that he'd been in Africa recently didn't get nailed down until the records were released by his family. The hospital is apologizing all over the place for screwing things up. Are you saying that hospital officials who admit that they goofed are also lying?

Again, and bottom line, they should have tested him for Ebola, and that's not Monday morning quarterbacking, that's taking in the totality of the circumstances. Recently arrived from Africa (even the timeline in the link you provided says that either he or his companion told a nurse he'd recently arrived from Africa). Temperature of 103. Severe pain in his gut. Hospital officials acknowledging mistakes. And still people are blaming it on Duncan. That's weak, weak, weak sauce. It seems pretty clear to me: They put this guy back on the street about as quickly as they possibly could. They treated him as an uninsured widget, not a human being. They ignored protocols that were issued to them about Ebola. If they had followed those protocols, Duncan never would have left that emergency room when he first went to the hospital.

I'm no fan of Jesse Jackson, but when a fool delivers a correct message, that message should not be ignored simply because a fool delivered it.


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## Pentheos

"These data, as reflected in the EHR, reveal that Mr. Duncan and his companion advised that he was a "local resident", that he had not been in contact with sick people, and that he had not experienced nausea, vomiting or diarrhea."

Sounds like Ebola to me.

Scratch that, sounds like lies. He was obviously a scared man. He should have done the right thing and brought up the fact that he had been in an Ebola hot zone. He didn't. Now others may die. This has nothing to do with his insurance status or his race.


​​


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## 32rollandrock

Pentheos said:


> "These data, as reflected in the EHR, reveal that Mr. Duncan and his companion advised that he was a "local resident", that he had not been in contact with sick people, and that he had not experienced nausea, vomiting or diarrhea."
> 
> Sounds like Ebola to me.
> 
> Scratch that, sounds like lies. He was obviously a scared man. He should have done the right thing and brought up the fact that he had been in an Ebola hot zone. He didn't. Now others may die. This has nothing to do with his insurance status or his race.


I suggest you re-read the timeline.

Asking about travel history was not part of the triage protocol at the hospital, even though hospitals had been told to be on the look-out for Ebola and ask people had been to Africa.​
According to this timeline, which, notably, is not a primary source, he told a nurse he had been in Africa five days earlier. It is inconceivable that he wouldn't say what part of Africa, or that the nurse didn't ask. And the nurse didn't pass this information on to the treating physician, according to this timeline.

Why do you think he was lying when he said that he hadn't been in contact with sick people? There has been no proof that he was, only contradictory media reports. Do you also believe that he had nausea, vomiting and diarrhea but covered that up? That makes zero sense.

As for being a local resident, I don't know what kind of visa he was on, but there have been reports that he came here to re-kindle some sort of romance. He may well have thought that he had moved here. You don't know and I don't know, and it's immaterial, so far as I'm concerned, because he told the hospital that he was in Africa just five days earlier and the hospital didn't act on that information. That is uncontradicted. It wouldn't surprise me if the hospital had sent Duncan home even if he'd told them, "Hey, I think I have Ebola." And let's not forget: The hospital isn't disputing that it screwed up.

Others may die not because of Mr. Duncan did or did not do, but because the hospital, which had been told to be on the lookout for Ebola, failed to follow basic protocol. What's your take on what the nurses are saying? The nurse who told the NYT that it was a clown show in the hospital, even after the second visit when they knew he had Ebola, apparently is not the only nurse who is concerned: https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/health/texas-ebola-nurses-union-claims/index.html. Are the nurses lying, too?

I just don't get why so many people are blaming this on a guy who got sick, went to the hospital with an extreme fever and severe pain, told the staff that he'd recently been in Africa and then was sent home, despite the hospital having been alerted to watch out for Ebola. Plus the fact that the hospital has said it didn't follow protocol. What am I missing here?


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## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> Her lack of conflict of interest is pretty obvious, I'd say. She's an employee. She criticized her employer in a pretty powerful way, in one of the world's largest newspapers. That, to me, seems courageous. Since you are the one who says that she has a conflict of interest, what, exactly, is that conflict? Why are you, who are not in a position to know what happened, discounting someone who was in a position to know what happened?


What is the conflict of interest in this environment of someone who could be sued for wrongful death or malpractice and possible lose their nurse's license? No clue, none at all.....



> You say you've read the medical records, but I'm not seeing them in the provided link. There are 1,400 pages, according to the Associated Press. The link you provided states that the hospital was told on the first visit that he'd been to Africa recently. He had a temperature of 103. Hospitals nationwide were supposed to be on alert for Ebola. I think it's pretty dang obvious what the hospital should have done: They should have freakin' tested him for Ebola. He also said the pain was eight on a scale of one to ten. If you're not outraged, you should be. It's tough to prove a negative, but if he'd had health insurance, I highly doubt that he would have been sent home with Tylenol with a 101 degree fever and that kind of pain and that kind of history (travel to Africa) and a failure to diagnose what ailed him.


I linked to the medical records that I found embedded in that article. Do you dispute that they are accurate? If you have more, I would love to see them.



> Why do you seem to think that the nurse and the relatives of Duncan are lying? The part about his 103 degree temperature and the fact that the hospital had been informed that he'd been in Africa recently didn't get nailed down until the records were released by his family. The hospital is apologizing all over the place for screwing things up. Are you saying that hospital officials who admit that they goofed are also lying?


First off, you seem to thrive on escalating the language when I am trying to have a discussion. I don't think that I ever said that anyone was lying. And at no point have I said that I know more than the people that were there. I am simply trying to get information.



> Again, and bottom line, they should have tested him for Ebola, and that's not Monday morning quarterbacking, that's taking in the totality of the circumstances. Recently arrived from Africa (even the timeline in the link you provided says that either he or his companion told a nurse he'd recently arrived from Africa). Temperature of 103. Severe pain in his gut. Hospital officials acknowledging mistakes. And still people are blaming it on Duncan. That's weak, weak, weak sauce. It seems pretty clear to me: They put this guy back on the street about as quickly as they possibly could. They treated him as an uninsured widget, not a human being. They ignored protocols that were issued to them about Ebola. If they had followed those protocols, Duncan never would have left that emergency room when he first went to the hospital.


His temp was 103 at one time, but then was back down to 101, and he said that he had not been around sick people, nor had he exhibited any of the other classic symptoms of Ebola. Would you not say that the last parts of that sentence are crucial to the issue?



> I'm no fan of Jesse Jackson, but when a fool delivers a correct message, that message should not be ignored simply because a fool delivered it.


Correct or incorrect are not the terms that I would use here, because there will be subjectivity in this case. Those are terms that can be used only when there are binary or mathematical answers.


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## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> I suggest you re-read the timeline.
> 
> Asking about travel history was not part of the triage protocol at the hospital, even though hospitals had been told to be on the look-out for Ebola and ask people had been to Africa.​
> According to this timeline, which, notably, is not a primary source, he told a nurse he had been in Africa five days earlier. It is inconceivable that he wouldn't say what part of Africa, or that the nurse didn't ask. And the nurse didn't pass this information on to the treating physician, according to this timeline.
> 
> Why do you think he was lying when he said that he hadn't been in contact with sick people? There has been no proof that he was, only contradictory media reports. Do you also believe that he had nausea, vomiting and diarrhea but covered that up? That makes zero sense.
> 
> As for being a local resident, I don't know what kind of visa he was on, but there have been reports that he came here to re-kindle some sort of romance. He may well have thought that he had moved here. You don't know and I don't know, and it's immaterial, so far as I'm concerned, because he told the hospital that he was in Africa just five days earlier and the hospital didn't act on that information. That is uncontradicted. It wouldn't surprise me if the hospital had sent Duncan home even if he'd told them, "Hey, I think I have Ebola." And let's not forget: The hospital isn't disputing that it screwed up.
> 
> Others may die not because of Mr. Duncan did or did not do, but because the hospital, which had been told to be on the lookout for Ebola, failed to follow basic protocol. What's your take on what the nurses are saying? The nurse who told the NYT that it was a clown show in the hospital, even after the second visit when they knew he had Ebola, apparently is not the only nurse who is concerned: https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/health/texas-ebola-nurses-union-claims/index.html. Are the nurses lying, too?
> 
> I just don't get why so many people are blaming this on a guy who got sick, went to the hospital with an extreme fever and severe pain, told the staff that he'd recently been in Africa and then was sent home, despite the hospital having been alerted to watch out for Ebola. Plus the fact that the hospital has said it didn't follow protocol. What am I missing here?


Please pick one - either this timeline is not accurate or it is accurate, but you can't say it is accurate for the parts you agree with, then say it doesn't count for the parts where you don't. If it is not, could you please post the timeline that you are basing your posts on, because you certainly seem sure of exactly what happened.


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## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> What is the conflict of interest in this environment of someone who could be sued for wrongful death or malpractice and possible lose their nurse's license? No clue, none at all.....
> 
> I linked to the medical records that I found embedded in that article. Do you dispute that they are accurate? If you have more, I would love to see them.
> 
> First off, you seem to thrive on escalating the language when I am trying to have a discussion. I don't think that I ever said that anyone was lying. And at no point have I said that I know more than the people that were there. I am simply trying to get information.
> 
> His temp was 103 at one time, but then was back down to 101, and he said that he had not been around sick people, nor had he exhibited any of the other classic symptoms of Ebola. Would you not say that the last parts of that sentence are crucial to the issue?
> 
> Correct or incorrect are not the terms that I would use here, because there will be subjectivity in this case. Those are terms that can be used only when there are binary or mathematical answers.


The nurse likely has zero exposure on a malpractice claim. If nothing else, she would be indemnified. As for any action against her nursing license, that also seems a remote possibility. I keep going back to this, because it apparently hasn't sunk in, but the hospital has admitted it screwed up. What part of that isn't sinking in?

As for getting information, a men's fashion site isn't going to be your best source.

As I said earlier, how do you know that he had been around sick people? There's zero proof that he was. The fact that he had recently been in Africa and the hospital knew it on the first visit--I don't see how you can get around that. Perhaps he hadn't had nausea or diarrhea, yet. But he certainly had a whale of a fever.


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## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> The nurse likely has zero exposure on a malpractice claim. If nothing else, she would be indemnified. As for any action against her nursing license, that also seems a remote possibility. I keep going back to this, because it apparently hasn't sunk in, but the hospital has admitted it screwed up. What part of that isn't sinking in?


Likely and remote are easy words when your job and reputations are not the ones on the line. But again - do you have a source for this?

I don't think that the hospital has said that it takes all responsibility, but I have had my kids this week, so I have not been following it that closely. So perhaps they have done that. I will look into it.



> As for getting information, a men's fashion site isn't going to be your best source.


Why not? There are many intelligent people here with all kinds of different points of view and research habits. But I am not going on what anyone says here just because they have posted it. In case you haven't noticed, I am looking for more articles and information on the subject - not personal conclusions.



> As I said earlier, how do you know that he had been around sick people? There's zero proof that he was. The fact that he had recently been in Africa and the hospital knew it on the first visit--I don't see how you can get around that. Perhaps he hadn't had nausea or diarrhea, yet. But he certainly had a whale of a fever.


The NYT - although I have not done an exhaustive search on this specific topic, so if you have information that runs counter to this report, I would love to see it.



> MONROVIA, Liberia - A man who flew to Dallas and was later found to have the Ebola virus was identified by senior Liberian government officials on Wednesday as Thomas Eric Duncan, a resident of Monrovia in his mid-40s.
> 
> Mr. Duncan, the first person to develop symptoms outside Africa during the current epidemic, had direct contact with a woman stricken by Ebola on Sept. 15, just four days before he left Liberia for the United States, the woman's parents and Mr. Duncan's neighbors said.
> 
> In a pattern often seen here in Monrovia, the Liberian capital, the family of the woman, Marthalene Williams, 19, took her by taxi to a hospital with Mr. Duncan's help on Sept. 15 after failing to get an ambulance, said her parents, Emmanuel and Amie Williams. She was convulsing and seven months pregnant, they said.
> 
> Turned away from a hospital for lack of space in its Ebola treatment ward, the family said it took Ms. Williams back home in the evening, and that she died hours later, around 3 a.m.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/world/africa/ebola-victim-texas-thomas-eric-duncan.html


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## Pentheos

32rollandrock said:


> As I said earlier, how do you know that he had been around sick people? There's zero proof that he was.


He contracted and died of ebola, that's how I know he had been around sick people. I simply cannot believe that he was unaware of this fact. If he did not know it, he could or should have suspected it. He was either the stupidest man who has ever lived or he was trying to hide his illness. We can't know what he was thinking.

Obviously there were missteps at the hospital. This is true of his initial visit and his later treatment. My only problem is with the notion that he was denied treatment because he was black and uninsured. All he had to say is: "west Africa"; "malaria"; "sick family members in west Africa"; "sick friends in west Africa'; or, "EBOLA". He didn't. According to the transcripts, he pretended to be a local resident with a fever and GI distress. No doctor is going to rush into an Ebola test from that with no other warning signs.


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## 32rollandrock

Pentheos said:


> He contracted and died of ebola, that's how I know he had been around sick people. I simply cannot believe that he was unaware of this fact. If he did not know it, he could or should have suspected it. He was either the stupidest man who has ever lived or he was trying to hide his illness. *We can't know what he was thinking*.
> 
> *Obviously there were missteps at the hospital*. This is true of his initial visit and his later treatment. My only problem is with the notion that he was denied treatment because he was black and uninsured. All he had to say is: "west Africa"; "malaria"; "sick family members in west Africa"; "sick friends in west Africa'; or, "EBOLA". He didn't. According to the transcripts, he pretended to be a local resident with a fever and GI distress. No doctor is going to rush into an Ebola test from that with no other warning signs.


Exactly right. And you are assuming that he knew what was going on with his health. It's entirely possible, even likely, that he did not. It doesn't make any sense at all that he would suspect that he had Ebola, then try to hide it. But again, you're right. He's dead, so we'll never know. But he did say tell a nurse that he'd recently arrived from Africa, and a treating physician was also informed. I find it hard to believe that he didn't say what part of Africa--that's kind of like telling someone "I just got back from South America" without the subject of countries ever being broached.

I'd say the missteps were inexcusable. Even when they KNEW it was Ebola, they screwed up (sorry repeat): https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/us/controls-poor-at-hospital-nurse-says.html The hospital's response to the accusations isn't reassuring. You know that they spent a ton of time, likely with lawyers, drafting it, and it does not refute anything this nurse says. A non-denial denial, as it were.

As for being black and poor and uninsured, I don't think that he was denied treatment because of his race. I do think that lack of insurance or money to pay for treatment likely played a role in his being released a half-hour after his temperature peaked at 103 (it was above 101 when he was sent home). It is also possible that he wanted to get out of there because he was concerned about the cost, as well he should have been. I have known people without insurance who did not seek medical treatment when they needed treatment because they couldn't afford it. That could well have been the case here. The cost of medical care is a national disgrace, but that's a topic for a different thread.


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## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> Exactly right. And you are assuming that he knew what was going on with his health. It's entirely possible, even likely, that he did not. It doesn't make any sense at all that he would suspect that he had Ebola, then try to hide it. But again, you're right. He's dead, so we'll never know. But he did say tell a nurse that he'd recently arrived from Africa, and a treating physician was also informed. I find it hard to believe that he didn't say what part of Africa--that's kind of like telling someone "I just got back from South America" without the subject of countries ever being broached.


Oh, good Lord. Ebola is ravaging Liberia and he was the ONLY person in Dallas who knew exactly what he had seen and done in that country. Are you seriously going to sit there and blame the hospital staff for not asking the appropriate questions to elicit the information when all he had to do was tell them?!?

If I had just gotten back from Liberia and started having a fever then I would be screaming all of the relevant facts at the top of my freaking lungs to any medical personnel I could find.

Do you place any culpability at all on Duncan? For anything?


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> Oh, good Lord. Ebola is ravaging Liberia and he was the ONLY person in Dallas who knew exactly what he had seen and done in that country. Are you seriously going to sit there and blame the hospital staff for not asking the appropriate questions to elicit the information when all he had to do was tell them?!?
> 
> If I had just gotten back from Liberia and started having a fever then I would be screaming all of the relevant facts at the top of my freaking lungs to any medical personnel I could find.
> 
> Do you place any culpability at all on Duncan? For anything?


No. I do not place any culpability on Duncan. The hospital has taken out full-page newspaper advertisements apologizing for discharging him with a high fever after he told the staff that he'd recently arrived from Africa. It is time to stop blaming him. It is time to learn the name of the physician who was told that Duncan had recently been in Africa but discharged him nonetheless. It has become abundantly clear that the hospital did nothing to prepare for this. Among other things, the lecture for staff on Ebola was nothing but a lecture, and attendance was voluntary. And when they did know it was Ebola, they still screwed it up. There really is no excuse.

Why are you blaming Duncan for anything? The more we learn--and thank goodness that the records were made public--the more we discover that it wasn't Duncan's fault at all. Period.


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## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> No. I do not place any culpability on Duncan. The hospital has taken out full-page newspaper advertisements apologizing for discharging him with a high fever after he told the staff that he'd recently arrived from Africa. It is time to stop blaming him. It is time to learn the name of the physician who was told that Duncan had recently been in Africa but discharged him nonetheless. It has become abundantly clear that the hospital did nothing to prepare for this. Among other things, the lecture for staff on Ebola was nothing but a lecture, and attendance was voluntary. And when they did know it was Ebola, they still screwed it up. There really is no excuse.
> 
> Why are you blaming Duncan for anything? The more we learn--and thank goodness that the records were made public--the more we discover that it wasn't Duncan's fault at all. Period.


What do I blame him for? Not telling them all of the pertinent facts. He had been to Liberia. Liberia has a severe outbreak of Ebola. Whether he had contact with Ebola victims. All of this information would have dramatically change how he was treated. And I think it is quite interesting that you rail on the way that the hospital handled an exceedingly rare event as if they had not had a lot of experience in it.

So tell me this - what is your hurricane plan? How about earthquake? Forest fire? Wait - you don't have on because they never happen in IL? And I hate to break it to you, but your hospital probably doesn't either. They probably have received a pamphlet or lecture though.

And they were also operating in the environment of unknowns that would have been prevented if a certain individual who did nothing wrong in your eyes, had you know, actually told them everything that he had been doing and where specifically he had been.

And it is also very curious that you don't include the federal government in your rants.

I certainly hold the hospital responsible for its mistakes, but good lord man, if you are operating in a never before dealt with situation, you are not going to be an expert, no matter how much training you have had.


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## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> What do I blame him for? Not telling them all of the pertinent facts. He had been to Liberia. Liberia has a severe outbreak of Ebola. Whether he had contact with Ebola victims. All of this information would have dramatically change how he was treated. And I think it is quite interesting that you rail on the way that the hospital handled an exceedingly rare event as if they had not had a lot of experience in it.
> 
> So tell me this - what is your hurricane plan? How about earthquake? Forest fire? Wait - you don't have on because they never happen in IL? And I hate to break it to you, but your hospital probably doesn't either. They probably have received a pamphlet or lecture though.
> 
> And they were also operating in the environment of unknowns that would have been prevented if a certain individual who did nothing wrong in your eyes, had you know, actually told them everything that he had been doing and where specifically he had been.
> 
> And it is also very curious that you don't include the federal government in your rants.
> 
> I certainly hold the hospital responsible for its mistakes, but good lord man, if you are operating in a never before dealt with situation, you are not going to be an expert, no matter how much training you have had.


You weren't there, so you don't know what he told them and what he did not tell them. It is undisputed that he said that he'd been in Africa, had severe gut pain and super-high fever. We'll probably never agree, but in my book, that is how you spell "Ebola." And keep it mind, contrary to your assertion that it would have dramatically changed the way he was treated, they still messed up when they knew he had Ebola.

Treating Ebola is not rocket science. It is, largely, common sense. Since it can't be cured, nineteenth century medicine--quarantine--is at play. The hospital was warned about Ebola and how to recognize it. Ebola was in the news. I rely on newspapers for my information, and I saw plenty of front-page stories on Ebola before it arrived in the United States. Hospitals and doctors are paid, in my view, obscene amounts of money. Money doesn't buy the world's best health care system, but ours is supposedly up there. We have a right to expect better, we have a right to be angry when there are multiple failures as there were in the Dallas hospital and we have a right to demand accountability, including the names of physicians who diagnosed sinusitis and sent him on his way.

Here is my hurricane plan. Since hurricanes come with plenty of warning, I would board up the windows on my house and check the Internet to see if there is anything else that I should be doing. If evacuation was not possible, I suppose that I would weather the storm in my basement (we do get tornadoes, and so folks do have experience and knowledge about high wind events). Otherwise, I would go to a designated shelter. Because I am the cautious sort, my home is already equipped with a generator, so I suppose you could say that I have already taken some steps. If there was a forest fire, I would evacuate. I don't have to have been through a forest fire to know that when a wildfire is about to come through, you get out of the way. There was an earthquake here a few years back that was no big deal. But I have lived in areas prone to earthquakes and learned that you prepare for an earthquake by...doing nothing. You can't prepare, since they come without warning and cannot be stopped. I have to trust that building codes are sufficient that my house will not collapse. I do have non-perishable provisions in my home as well as flashlights and the like. That's pretty standard stuff.

You see, some things are matters of common sense, and this Ebola thing in Dallas is a good example. I'm not pleased by what the feds have or have not done, and if you want to go there, we can. But let's limit it, if we can, to the screw-ups in Dallas. You can't say that this situation was unprecedented because deadly communicable diseases have been around since the dawn of man. And let's not forget that Ebola was raging in Africa, which is why hospitals were put on alert here. Not unprecedented. At all.

In my opinion, this matter should not be laid to rest until we are told the name, or names, of the physician, or physicians, who released Duncan a half-hour after his fever was measured at 103 degrees. They should be given the opportunity to provide their side of the story, of course, but part of being held accountable is being identified. And we do not identify them to punish or humiliate. Rather, we identify them so that future patients can make informed decisions about their treatment providers. It is no exaggeration to say that it can be a matter of life or death.

It's clear that some people are going to continue blaming Duncan and that their thinking in this matter is intractable, so further debate seems pointless. So let's focus on some good news. Nigeria has been declared Ebola free by the World Health Organization--no new cases in more than 40 days. Pretty good work by the folks there, I'd say. And I am amazed by what I have read about the physicians who have gone to Africa to help. Dressed from head to foot in rubber garb and protective gowns and masks inside sweltering hospital wards to help ease the pain of strangers for little or no pay, these people are nothing short of heroes. They don't have to be there, but they went anyway, and words aren't sufficient to describe their selflessness: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/world/africa/ebola-liberia-west-africa-epidemic.html


----------



## Chouan

vpkozel said:


> What do I blame him for? Not telling them all of the pertinent facts. He had been to Liberia. Liberia has a severe outbreak of Ebola. Whether he had contact with Ebola victims. All of this information would have dramatically change how he was treated. And I think it is quite interesting that you rail on the way that the hospital handled an exceedingly rare event as if they had not had a lot of experience in it.


But, as has already been repeatedly explained, we don't _*know*_ that he didn't tell them. There's an assumption, based on the hospital's report, which will, of course, have an agenda of it's own, that he didn't tell them. It isn't a fact though.



vpkozel said:


> And they were also operating in the environment of unknowns that would have been prevented if a certain individual who did nothing wrong in your eyes, had you know, actually told them everything that he had been doing and where specifically he had been.
> 
> Again, we don't know that he didn't tell them. We don't know that they were operating in an environment of unknowns.
> 
> 
> 
> vpkozel said:
> 
> 
> 
> And it is also very curious that you don't include the federal government in your rants.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that? Also, are you defining "rant" as a viewpoint that differs from your own? I can see nothing in 32rollandrock's posts, and we've disagreed on many things in the past, that looks like a rant to me.
> 
> 
> 
> vpkozel said:
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly hold the hospital responsible for its mistakes, but good lord man, if you are operating in a never before dealt with situation, you are not going to be an expert, no matter how much training you have had.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would suggest that a hospital should be expert in dealing with a serious contagious disease. They knew that Ebola was an increasing problem, they knew the symptoms, they'd had warnings and they knew, at the very least, that the poor bloke had recently travelled to the US from West Africa. Surely they might have considered that Ebola might have been a possible cause? A bit of caution would have been a reasonable response.
Click to expand...


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## Pentheos

I suspect when his fever dropped from 103 (high but not _terribly_ high) to 101 with an OTC and he said he felt better they figured he just had some generalized GI distress. Had he not improved I bet they would have admitted him and then realized that he was not your average patient.


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## 32rollandrock

Pentheos said:


> I suspect when his fever dropped from 103 (high but not _terribly_ high) to 101 with an OTC and he said he felt better they figured he just had some generalized GI distress. Had he not improved I bet they would have admitted him and then realized that he was not your average patient.


103 is not a terribly high temperature? Sure is in my book.


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## 32rollandrock

Pentheos said:


> I suspect when his fever dropped from 103 (high but not _terribly_ high) to 101 with an OTC and he said he felt better they figured he just had some generalized GI distress. Had he not improved I bet they would have admitted him and then realized that he was not your average patient.


It is difficult to prove a negative, of course, but I would not be surprised if money did play a role here. It's no secret that the uninsured pay a lot more for treatment than insured people and their insurers. It wouldn't be surprising if he decided to tough it out, not realizing he had Ebola, instead of staying at the hospital, and it would not be surprising if the hospital had, subtly perhaps, encouraged this decision. It is very common for uninsured people to delay or skip needed medical attention, or to attempt getting by with the bare minimum. And so we should not be surprised if this was a factor, although it would be difficult to prove up.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> It is difficult to prove a negative, of course, but I would not be surprised if money did play a role here. It's no secret that the uninsured pay a lot more for treatment than insured people and their insurers. It wouldn't be surprising if he decided to tough it out, not realizing he had Ebola, instead of staying at the hospital, and it would not be surprising if the hospital had, subtly perhaps, encouraged this decision. It is very common for uninsured people to delay or skip needed medical attention, or to attempt getting by with the bare minimum. And so we should not be surprised if this was a factor, although it would be difficult to prove up.


Did any documents reveal what he did pay for the his ER trip and the meds he received??


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## 32rollandrock

WouldaShoulda said:


> Did any documents reveal what he did pay for the his ER trip and the meds he received??


I don't know, but I suspect he was dead before the bill arrived. It will be interesting to see if the hospital goes after his relatives for the balance due. I'm betting it will. I believe they sent him on his way with Tylenol and a prescription for antibiotics. If, in fact, antibiotics were prescribed, that seems problematic, given their overuse these days.


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## Pentheos

32rollandrock said:


> 103 is not a terribly high temperature? Sure is in my book.


It's actually on the lower end of high...but on the high side of elevated. I wouldn't seek medical treatment for a 103 fever until I had tried an OTC.


----------



## 32rollandrock

Pentheos said:


> It's actually on the lower end of high...but on the high side of elevated. I wouldn't seek medical treatment for a 103 fever until I had tried an OTC.


And if you also had a pain in your gut that was eight on a one-to-ten scale?


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## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> And if you also had a pain in your gut that was eight on a one-to-ten scale?


...and you watched people die of Ebola just weeks before with the same symptoms.


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> You weren't there, so you don't know what he told them and what he did not tell them. It is undisputed that he said that he'd been in Africa, had severe gut pain and super-high fever. We'll probably never agree, but in my book, that is how you spell "Ebola." And keep it mind, contrary to your assertion that it would have dramatically changed the way he was treated, they still messed up when they knew he had Ebola.


I have no idea whether we will agree or not. However, I am happy to wait for the facts to come out. You seem intent on forming judgments that are more in line with your first views - disregarding information that may contradict that (case in point, Duncan reportedly helping and sharing a cab with an Ebola victim in Liberia, consistently referring only to one spiked temp, etc.).



> Treating Ebola is not rocket science. It is, largely, common sense. Since it can't be cured, nineteenth century medicine--quarantine--is at play. The hospital was warned about Ebola and how to recognize it. Ebola was in the news. I rely on newspapers for my information, and I saw plenty of front-page stories on Ebola before it arrived in the United States. Hospitals and doctors are paid, in my view, obscene amounts of money. Money doesn't buy the world's best health care system, but ours is supposedly up there. We have a right to expect better, we have a right to be angry when there are multiple failures as there were in the Dallas hospital and we have a right to demand accountability, including the names of physicians who diagnosed sinusitis and sent him on his way.


Well, for something that is just common sense, there seems to be an awful lot of confusion about it. And if it is so common sense and easy to treat then it wouldn't be spreading like crazy in Africa. As for the symptoms, his symptoms were consistent with much less severe diagnoses. Are you now saying that we should quarantine EVERYONE who presents with similar symptoms?



> Here is my hurricane plan. Since hurricanes come with plenty of warning, I would board up the windows on my house and check the Internet to see if there is anything else that I should be doing. If evacuation was not possible, I suppose that I would weather the storm in my basement (we do get tornadoes, and so folks do have experience and knowledge about high wind events). Otherwise, I would go to a designated shelter. Because I am the cautious sort, my home is already equipped with a generator, so I suppose you could say that I have already taken some steps. If there was a forest fire, I would evacuate. I don't have to have been through a forest fire to know that when a wildfire is about to come through, you get out of the way. There was an earthquake here a few years back that was no big deal. But I have lived in areas prone to earthquakes and learned that you prepare for an earthquake by...doing nothing. You can't prepare, since they come without warning and cannot be stopped. I have to trust that building codes are sufficient that my house will not collapse. I do have non-perishable provisions in my home as well as flashlights and the like. That's pretty standard stuff.


All pretty standard until things go dramatically wrong or there is an unforseen failure. Why don't you ask the folks in NOLA or around New York if their hurricanes were just standard stuff. That's the whole point. Easy things are easy to respond to - it is when things go awry that stresses and failures (known and unknown) come to light.



> You see, some things are matters of common sense, and this Ebola thing in Dallas is a good example. I'm not pleased by what the feds have or have not done, and if you want to go there, we can. But let's limit it, if we can, to the screw-ups in Dallas. You can't say that this situation was unprecedented because deadly communicable diseases have been around since the dawn of man. And let's not forget that Ebola was raging in Africa, which is why hospitals were put on alert here. Not unprecedented. At all.


Not unprecedented? Could you please name for me all of the Ebola victims that have died in America? How about the number of people who have gotten Ebola entirely in America?



> In my opinion, this matter should not be laid to rest until we are told the name, or names, of the physician, or physicians, who released Duncan a half-hour after his fever was measured at 103 degrees.


You keep using this as a point of reference. What was his temp ON DISCHARGE? Why don't you use that?

Can you think of anything that might cause a spike in temp at all? Perhaps a hot or warm liquid that people might drink late at night? Any possibilities at all?



> They should be given the opportunity to provide their side of the story, of course, but part of being held accountable is being identified. And we do not identify them to punish or humiliate. Rather, we identify them so that future patients can make informed decisions about their treatment providers. It is no exaggeration to say that it can be a matter of life or death.


Sure - you have the right to a full and public trial before we find you guilty.



> It's clear that some people are going to continue blaming Duncan and that their thinking in this matter is intractable, so further debate seems pointless. So let's focus on some good news.


Wait, what happened to being held accountable? And you could say those that blindly defend him without all of the facts are just as intractable.

As I have said - repeatedly - I am looking only for the facts so I can best understand the situation so we can prevent it from happening again. And so far, these facts are few and far between.

We know that Duncan was in Liberia. We know that he contracted Ebola there. We know that he came back during its incubation period and subsequently went to the hospital and was sent home. We know that he transferred it directly to one (an most likely two) people who treated him. I would also say that the medical record we have seen is a fact, but many may not. If you accept it as such however, it needs to be accepted as a whole, not picked and chosen from as fits an opinion.



> Nigeria has been declared Ebola free by the World Health Organization--no new cases in more than 40 days. Pretty good work by the folks there, I'd say. And I am amazed by what I have read about the physicians who have gone to Africa to help. Dressed from head to foot in rubber garb and protective gowns and masks inside sweltering hospital wards to help ease the pain of strangers for little or no pay, these people are nothing short of heroes. They don't have to be there, but they went anyway, and words aren't sufficient to describe their selflessness: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/world/africa/ebola-liberia-west-africa-epidemic.html


I agree that they are doing amazing work. I don't think that anyone is disputing that.


----------



## Chouan

WouldaShoulda said:


> ...and you watched people die of Ebola just weeks before with the same symptoms.


But we don't know that he said nothing at the hospital. We only have the hospital's version which might, just might be a bit biased.


----------



## vpkozel

Chouan said:


> But we don't know that he said nothing at the hospital. We only have the hospital's version which might, just might be a bit biased.


And his family's version isn't?


----------



## vpkozel

Chouan said:


> But, as has already been repeatedly explained, we don't _*know*_ that he didn't tell them. There's an assumption, based on the hospital's report, which will, of course, have an agenda of it's own, that he didn't tell them. It isn't a fact though.


And we don't *know *that he *did* tell them. And are you aware as to how serious it is to falsify or edit medical records after the fact? These reports are kept in the moment, not created after the fact.



> Again, we don't know that he didn't tell them. We don't know that they were operating in an environment of unknowns.


And, again, we don't know that he did tell them.

But, which do you think is more likely? That he did not tell them because he was understandably scared out of his wits and he was worried that he would be quarantined if he told them everything or that he DID tell them everything and the hospital, knowing that they had this hugely contagious and deadly disease just sent him home with some aspirin and hoped he didn't infect anyone?



> Why is that? Also, are you defining "rant" as a viewpoint that differs from your own? I can see nothing in 32rollandrock's posts, and we've disagreed on many things in the past, that looks like a rant to me.


I am defining rant as making bombastic and declaratory statements, and I am not simply talking about this specific thread. It is clear that 32 has a very poor opinion of the US medical system. And I don't have a viewpoint on most of this - except that I hold Duncan, not the hospital, responsible if he did not tell them the whole and unabridged truth. And it appears from what I have seen so far that he did not do this.

For the rest, I am asking only that people wait until we have all of the facts, most people want to form their conclusions ahead of that.



> I would suggest that a hospital should be expert in dealing with a serious contagious disease. They knew that Ebola was an increasing problem, they knew the symptoms, they'd had warnings and they knew, at the very least, that the poor bloke had recently travelled to the US from West Africa. Surely they might have considered that Ebola might have been a possible cause? A bit of caution would have been a reasonable response.


I would suggest that the first time you do something you are not going to be expert in anything. If that was the case, medical residencies would be a waste of time and money.

And again - as far as I have seen no one is saying that he said that he travelled from WEST Africa - only from AFRICA. It is a big continent and it is entirely possible that no one jumped to the Ebola conclusion when 99.99999999% of the cases that shared the same symptoms were simply minor illnesses.


----------



## 32rollandrock

^^

Dude:

What part of we can never know what Duncan said don't you understand? What part of the hospital was informed on the first visit that he'd recently returned from Africa don't you understand? What part of the hospital has admitted it made massive, massive mistakes and taken out full-page newspaper advertisements to apologize don't you seem to grasp?

Let's try this: *Would you trust the folks who treated Duncan on the first visit (and even the second) to treat you or your loved ones?* If nothing else, please answer this question. I certainly would not. That's why it's important for their names to be released--smart money says they're going to get jobs at other hospitals before long and no one will know where they are. Now, if there is a plausible explanation that we haven't heard yet, that's one thing. But we haven't gotten that.

Practicing medicine is a privilege, not a responsibility. When people make preventable mistakes that put others at risk, or result in death, they are routinely and publicly held accountable. That doesn't seem to be the case with doctors.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> Practicing medicine is a privilege, not a responsibility. When people make preventable mistakes that put others at risk, or result in death, they are routinely and publicly held accountable. That doesn't seem to be the case with doctors.


That's what ambulance chasers are for!!


----------



## justonemore

An expert on national healthcare issues recently heard from the director of a hospital who said that the preparations for a major outbreak of Ebola would bankrupt his medical center because of all the extreme measures that have to be taken to assure safety of healthcare workers and other patients.

Dr.*Betsy McCaughey*appeared on Fox News after attending a CDC conference call with hospitals on October 14 and noted that things are not doing as well as Obama claims.

McCaughey said that many on the call were “daunted by the expectations, the separate laboratory next to the isolated patients, all kinds of — all kinds of adjustments, where to put the waste. Many states won’t even let you dispose of this waste from such a toxic disease.”


after the CDC outlined its preparation strategy, one hospital administrator responded, “What you’re telling us would bankrupt my hospital!” She said that that administrator represents a Southern California hospital.

McCaughey noted that there was no word on the call of who would pay for hospitals to get themselves ready for Ebola patients.

And then she added: “Treating one Ebola patient requires, full time, 20 medical staff. Mostly ICU (intensive care unit) people. So that would wipe out an ICU in an average-sized hospital.”

In the case of Texas Presbyterian, McCaughey says that the hospital cordoned off its ICU to care for Thomas Eric Duncan and sent the rest of its ICU patients to other area hospitals. She added that many communities will not have multiple hospitals to choose from, so one Ebola case could cripple ICUs in small towns.

The fact is, this country is not ready


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## 32rollandrock

I think that you are right. I also think it is inexcusable. If Nigeria was able to wipe out Ebola (the World Health Organization issued a clean bill of health yesterday) we should be able to do at least as well. Absolutely mind blowing. When a Third World country can handle an outbreak of a disease that medical experts here say would bankrupt hospitals, something is deeply wrong.



WouldaShoulda said:


> That's what ambulance chasers are for!!





justonemore said:


> An expert on national healthcare issues recently heard from the director of a hospital who said that the preparations for a major outbreak of Ebola would bankrupt his medical center because of all the extreme measures that have to be taken to assure safety of healthcare workers and other patients.
> 
> Dr.*Betsy McCaughey*appeared on Fox News after attending a CDC conference call with hospitals on October 14 and noted that things are not doing as well as Obama claims.
> 
> McCaughey said that many on the call were "daunted by the expectations, the separate laboratory next to the isolated patients, all kinds of - all kinds of adjustments, where to put the waste. Many states won't even let you dispose of this waste from such a toxic disease."
> 
> after the CDC outlined its preparation strategy, one hospital administrator responded, "What you're telling us would bankrupt my hospital!" She said that that administrator represents a Southern California hospital.
> 
> McCaughey noted that there was no word on the call of who would pay for hospitals to get themselves ready for Ebola patients.
> 
> And then she added: "Treating one Ebola patient requires, full time, 20 medical staff. Mostly ICU (intensive care unit) people. So that would wipe out an ICU in an average-sized hospital."
> 
> In the case of Texas Presbyterian, McCaughey says that the hospital cordoned off its ICU to care for Thomas Eric Duncan and sent the rest of its ICU patients to other area hospitals. She added that many communities will not have multiple hospitals to choose from, so one Ebola case could cripple ICUs in small towns.
> 
> The fact is, this country is not ready


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> ^^
> 
> Dude:
> 
> What part of we can never know what Duncan said don't you understand?


Really? Are you saying that no one else was in the room when he made these statements?



> What part of the hospital was informed on the first visit that he'd recently returned from Africa don't you understand?


Africa is a big place. Only a small part of it has Ebola.



> What part of the hospital has admitted it made massive, massive mistakes and taken out full-page newspaper advertisements to apologize don't you seem to grasp?


Can you think of other examples where someone admits to something in hope of mitigating the punishment or reactions?



> Let's try this: *Would you trust the folks who treated Duncan on the first visit (and even the second) to treat you or your loved ones?* If nothing else, please answer this question.


I think that I have answered everything you have asked - why would this be any different?

And while this is obviously a strawman meant to lead to a specific response, and there are so many different factors involved. In general though, the answer would be yes. If perfection is your gauge of a doctor, no wonder you seem to be so hostile to the medical profession.



> I certainly would not.


So, if your options were to go to that hospital in an emergency with a 99% success rate or go somewhere else with a 50% success rate, you would choose the latter?



> That's why it's important for their names to be released--smart money says they're going to get jobs at other hospitals before long and no one will know where they are. Now, if there is a plausible explanation that we haven't heard yet, that's one thing. But we haven't gotten that.


That makes no sense.



> Practicing medicine is a privilege, not a responsibility. When people make preventable mistakes that put others at risk, or result in death, they are routinely and publicly held accountable. That doesn't seem to be the case with doctors.


Practicing medicine is a profession. Practiced by humans. Humans are fallible. Sorry, but that is the truth.


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> I think that you are right. I also think it is inexcusable. If Nigeria was able to wipe out Ebola (the World Health Organization issued a clean bill of health yesterday) we should be able to do at least as well. Absolutely mind blowing. When a Third World country can handle an outbreak of a disease that medical experts here say would bankrupt hospitals, something is deeply wrong.


So you would be comfortable if the US replaced its healthcare model with Nigeria's?


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> So you would be comfortable if the US replaced its healthcare model with Nigeria's?


While I have limited knowledge of Nigeria's health care system, I suspect the answer is yes, at least in some ways. And when it comes to Ebola, it's hard to argue with the result.

Does Nigeria have health insurance companies that provide no health care goods or health care services yet manage to generate millions of dollars for shareholders? If I went to Nigeria and started discussing single payer models, would anyone know what I was talking about? If I went to Nigeria, would I see roadside billboards pimping ER's and breast-exam clinics? If I watched Nigerian television, would I be bombarded with ads from pharmaceutical companies pitching drugs I never knew I needed and couldn't afford? Would a Nigerian doctor stick a tube up my rump for a few minutes, then demand $5,000? If I went to a Nigerian hospital, would I be able to watch tropical fish frolicking in massive saltwater aquariums in lobbies with marble floors, just down the corridor from a cafeteria offering panini prosciutto sandwiches and any sort of latte I can imagine that I could enjoy while sitting in a comfy booth with original oil paintings on the walls and glass sculptures hanging from the ceiling? Would there be an expansive lawn out front with fountain, artificial lake and picnicking area? Would the hospital, in addition to employing doctors and nurses, also employ a public relations staff, an HVAC specialist, a room service coordinator and an early childhood teaching assistant? Would that hospital publish a weekly newsletter? I suspect that if I went to Nigeria, I could probably walk into a store and buy Albuterol for less than $10 and without a prescription, like I can in Mexico or any number of Third World nations. If I went to a city of 115,000 people in Nigeria, would there be two major hospitals that collectively employ more than 6,200 people, plus a medical school that employs 1,200 people, plus an outpatient health care facility that employs 1,000 people, plus dozens upon dozens of standalone medical clinics? Would a hospital in Nigeria pay $1 million a year to an ex officio member of its board of directors? How about more than $4.4 million, collectively, to the top ten most highly paid employees, none of whom are physicians? Do hospitals in Nigeria try to acquire each other in multi-million dollar deals while paying no taxes?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but I have a hunch. I do not think that we should be so quick to dismiss the Nigerian health care system. Who knows? We might be able to learn a lot from them beyond how to deal with Ebola. And I would be remiss if I didn't also add that if I had Ebola, I would rather have it addressed in Nigeria than in a certain hospital in Dallas.

Addendum: And, in light of the recent outbreak in NYC, perhaps health care providers in Nigrria could teach us a bit about quarantine.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

A hospital with no A/C??

I'd rather die!!


----------



## Odradek




----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> While I have limited knowledge of Nigeria's health care system, I suspect the answer is yes, at least in some ways. And when it comes to Ebola, it's hard to argue with the result.
> 
> Does Nigeria have health insurance companies that provide no health care goods or health care services yet manage to generate millions of dollars for shareholders? If I went to Nigeria and started discussing single payer models, would anyone know what I was talking about? If I went to Nigeria, would I see roadside billboards pimping ER's and breast-exam clinics? If I watched Nigerian television, would I be bombarded with ads from pharmaceutical companies pitching drugs I never knew I needed and couldn't afford? Would a Nigerian doctor stick a tube up my rump for a few minutes, then demand $5,000? If I went to a Nigerian hospital, would I be able to watch tropical fish frolicking in massive saltwater aquariums in lobbies with marble floors, just down the corridor from a cafeteria offering panini prosciutto sandwiches and any sort of latte I can imagine that I could enjoy while sitting in a comfy booth with original oil paintings on the walls and glass sculptures hanging from the ceiling? Would there be an expansive lawn out front with fountain, artificial lake and picnicking area? Would the hospital, in addition to employing doctors and nurses, also employ a public relations staff, an HVAC specialist, a room service coordinator and an early childhood teaching assistant? Would that hospital publish a weekly newsletter? I suspect that if I went to Nigeria, I could probably walk into a store and buy Albuterol for less than $10 and without a prescription, like I can in Mexico or any number of Third World nations. If I went to a city of 115,000 people in Nigeria, would there be two major hospitals that collectively employ more than 6,200 people, plus a medical school that employs 1,200 people, plus an outpatient health care facility that employs 1,000 people, plus dozens upon dozens of standalone medical clinics? Would a hospital in Nigeria pay $1 million a year to an ex officio member of its board of directors? How about more than $4.4 million, collectively, to the top ten most highly paid employees, none of whom are physicians? Do hospitals in Nigeria try to acquire each other in multi-million dollar deals while paying no taxes?
> 
> I don't know the answers to these questions, but I have a hunch. I do not think that we should be so quick to dismiss the Nigerian health care system. Who knows? We might be able to learn a lot from them beyond how to deal with Ebola. And I would be remiss if I didn't also add that if I had Ebola, I would rather have it addressed in Nigeria than in a certain hospital in Dallas.
> 
> Addendum: And, in light of the recent outbreak in NYC, perhaps health care providers in Nigrria could teach us a bit about quarantine.


Are you familiar with how many documented cases Nigeria had? And what their death rate was.

And while I have no doubts that you will not like what it says, I highly recommend that you watch the 60 Minutes piece from this evening. The nurses that treated Duncan said that they followed CDC guidelines in place at the time and the one who specifically asked him about being around sick people while he had been in Liberia. She said that he told her that he had not been around any at all (although he did say that he had buried his daughter who had died in childbirth). When interviewed by the TX health officials, he denied that his daughter had died in childbirth.


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> Are you familiar with how many documented cases Nigeria had? And what their death rate was.
> 
> And while I have no doubts that you will not like what it says, I highly recommend that you watch the 60 Minutes piece from this evening. The nurses that treated Duncan said that they followed CDC guidelines in place at the time and the one who specifically asked him about being around sick people while he had been in Liberia. She said that he told her that he had not been around any at all (although he did say that he had buried his daughter who had died in childbirth). When interviewed by the TX health officials, he denied that his daughter had died in childbirth.


I caught part of the 60 Minutes piece. Still hearing he-said-she-said's, but, again, I didn't see the whole program. What I saw seemed like an attempt to turn the staff into heroes who knowingly risked their lives to save others. How much of that might be true, I don't know, because I didn't see the whole program.

Last I checked, Nigeria is a whole heck of a lot closer to Liberia and other stricken areas than the United States. Apparently, they had some cases. How many, I don't know.

Can I get an answer to some of the questions I posed?


----------



## SG_67

^ I think Nigeria just plain shut down any flow through it's borders from those countries. 

On a side note, the whole fiasco with the governors of New York and New Jersey declaring with such certainty the mandatory quarantine of 21 days for anyone coming from those countries, only to turn around in less than 48 hrs. And rescind is ridiculous. 

The whole response to this, at all levels of government, is farcical and dictated first and foremost by politics instead of sound science. 

No wonder the public is confused and freaked out.


----------



## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> ^ I think Nigeria just plain shut down any flow through it's borders from those countries.
> 
> On a side note, the whole fiasco with the governors of New York and New Jersey declaring with such certainty the mandatory quarantine of 21 days for anyone coming from those countries, only to turn around in less than 48 hrs. And rescind is ridiculous.
> 
> The whole response to this, at all levels of government, is farcical and dictated first and foremost by politics instead of sound science.
> 
> No wonder the public is confused and freaked out.


I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me that there should be a quarantine period for people, including caregivers, who have been in direct contact with patients. Then again, what do I know?

Here's what seems to be a pretty good article from WHO on how they got Ebola under control in Nigeria:

https://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/ebola/20-october-2014/en/

My take is, they used what technology was available (among other things, re-purposing some facilities to serve Ebola patients) along with good, old fashioned common sense. The government and health authorities spoke with one voice. They kept track of patients. It was not rocket science at all. And here we have some fool in this country saying that Ebola would bankrupt the health care system here. Egads. After reading this article, the point seems even more obvious: We really could learn a thing or two from Nigeria.


----------



## SG_67

32rollandrock said:


> I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me that there should be a quarantine period for people, including caregivers, who have been in direct contact with patients. Then again, what do I know?
> 
> Here's what seems to be a pretty good article from WHO on how they got Ebola under control in Nigeria:
> 
> https://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/ebola/20-october-2014/en/
> 
> My take is, they used what technology was available (among other things, re-purposing some facilities to serve Ebola patients) along with good, old fashioned common sense. The government and health authorities spoke with one voice. They kept track of patients. It was not rocket science at all. And here we have some fool in this country saying that Ebola would bankrupt the health care system here. Egads. After reading this article, the point seems even more obvious: We really could learn a thing or two from Nigeria.


Personally I agree with a short quarantine period but my point was how quickly Christie and Cuomo folded once proclaimed the mandatory quarantine.

It's either a good idea or it's not. If they really meant it, they should have stood by the decision. Instead they folded as soon as they were challenged on it.


----------



## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> Personally I agree with a short quarantine period but my point was how quickly Christie and Cuomo folded once proclaimed the mandatory quarantine.
> 
> It's either a good idea or it's not. If they really meant it, they should have stood by the decision. Instead they folded as soon as they were challenged on it.


Exactly. OTOH, I'm not sure that a quarantine on a state level can work. Clearly, the CDC hasn't been able to get its act together, and in the absence of a trustworthy central authority, we get stuff like what Christie and Cuomo came up with.

I don't have enough bravery or selflessness (or expertise) to go to Africa to help Ebola victims, but I would like to think that if I did, no one would have to tell me to stay away from other people for three weeks upon my return to the U.S. Kind of like the nurse who couldn't figure out on her own that it wasn't a good idea to get on an airplane after developing a temperature after having treated someone with Ebola. We showed more common sense in quarantining astronauts when they returned from the moon, where nothing can live, than we are showing when it comes to dealing with Ebola.


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> I caught part of the 60 Minutes piece. Still hearing he-said-she-said's, but, again, I didn't see the whole program. What I saw seemed like an attempt to turn the staff into heroes who knowingly risked their lives to save others. How much of that might be true, I don't know, because I didn't see the whole program.
> 
> Last I checked, Nigeria is a whole heck of a lot closer to Liberia and other stricken areas than the United States. Apparently, they had some cases. How many, I don't know.
> 
> Can I get an answer to some of the questions I posed?


Nigeria had 20 cases. 8 deaths. For those of you not great at math, that is a higher death rate than we have here, and that assumes a 100% reporting rate.

I think that I have answered all of your questions, but if there are some that I may have missed, please let me know and I will do my best to answer them.

Edit - most of the 60 minutes piece was based on the accounts of those who treated him. Do you feel that your opinions on this are based on he said/she said accounts? If not, which ones do you feel are first person?


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> Nigeria had 20 cases. 8 deaths. For those of you not great at math, that is a higher death rate than we have here, and that assumes a 100% reporting rate.
> 
> I think that I have answered all of your questions, but if there are some that I may have missed, please let me know and I will do my best to answer them.
> 
> Edit - most of the 60 minutes piece was based on the accounts of those who treated him. Do you feel that your opinions on this are based on he said/she said accounts? If not, which ones do you feel are first person?


I think that the people who treated Mr. Duncan made some serious, avoidable mistakes, and so I think that they might be a bit defensive. If 60 Minutes wanted a balanced perspective, perhaps they should have invited representatives of Mr. Duncan's family. Perhaps they did. Again, I didn't see the whole program.

And hooray, again, for Nigeria. I still say they can teach us a lot.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

SG_67 said:


> Personally I agree with a short quarantine period but my point was how quickly Christie and Cuomo folded once proclaimed the mandatory quarantine.
> 
> It's either a good idea or it's not. If they really meant it, they should have stood by the decision. Instead they folded as soon as they were challenged on it.


What about the Army??



> Soldiers coming back from serving in Ebola-hit Liberia will be kept in quarantine for 21 days, the U.S. Army said Monday - even though they were kept apart from any Ebola patients.
> A dozen soldiers, including Major General Darryl Williams, their commander, will be confined to a housing complex with barracks, a dining hall and a gym but no outside access at their home base in Vicenza, Italy, the Defense Department said. They will not be able to return to their homes or interact with other personnel at the base, except those working in the quarantine area.


https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/e...ne-soldiers-returning-ebola-hit-areas-n234916

I hope Obama read about this!!


----------



## SG_67

^ This entire story, the way it's covered and more importantly, the way it's been handled by the government is an example when an administration is completely paralyzed by politics.


----------



## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> ^ This entire story, the way it's covered and more importantly, the way it's been handled by the government is an example when an administration is completely paralyzed by politics.


And, let's not forget, how it's been handled by the health care system. There's no one in this equation who can stand up and be proud of themselves.


----------



## ChrisRS

WouldaShoulda said:


> What about the Army??


The military is not a democracy. They will do what they need to do.

Now, if you want to talk about politics and the military, let's talk women on submarines...
https://www.navytimes.com/article/2...sted-women-serve-attack-submarines-after-2020


----------



## WouldaShoulda

32rollandrock said:


> I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me that there should be a quarantine period for people, including caregivers, who have been in direct contact with patients. Then again, what do I know?


Hold on there!!



> Hickox says she does not understand the public's concern over health care workers arriving back home in the United States.
> "I think we really have to stick to the facts and the science and I think we also need to look historically," HIckox said. "I haven't seen any science that says this is a huge risk and I have seen science that says self-monitoring works.
> "Self-monitoring is a humane, understandable, prudent solution," she said.


https://abcnews.go.com/US/nurse-kaci-hickox-court-maine-ebola-quarantine-rule/story?id=26535878

Like the Doctor who came back recently and developed Ebola??

This woman is plucking my last nerve!!


----------



## WouldaShoulda

ChrisRS said:


> The military is not a democracy. They will do what they need to do.
> 
> Now, if you want to talk about politics and the military, let's talk women on submarines...
> https://www.navytimes.com/article/2...sted-women-serve-attack-submarines-after-2020


Don't get me started!!


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> I think that the people who treated Mr. Duncan made some serious, avoidable mistakes,


Any that have not already been dealt with here?



> and so I think that they might be a bit defensive. If 60 Minutes wanted a balanced perspective, perhaps they should have invited representatives of Mr. Duncan's family. Perhaps they did. Again, I didn't see the whole program.


They did not have any representatives from his family - nor did they reference that they had invited them, which is odd in my book - because they should have done so.

I doubt that they would have accepted though for a variety of reasons, but a big one that I would like to see answered is what the TX law is on criminally negligent homicide is. Because we know that someone was at the hospital with him. And if that person knew that he had been to Liberia and had been around sick people and that person said or did nothing, then there is a chance that that person is culpable in his death.

Why would the nurses feel any defensiveness? They felt like they had done the absolute best that they could have in the situation.

And again, one said that Duncan was not truthful to her. First person. Words from his mouth to her ears. Specific questions. And she said he lied. Now, she may be lying about that, but that I cannot really see any reason for her to do so. I would also have a hard time believing that conversation was not recorded or documented somehow.

And again - they said that the Dallas hospital was following ALL CDC protocols at the time. The hospital took more strenuous measures on their own, not at anyone else's urging or request.



> And hooray, again, for Nigeria. I still say they can teach us a lot.


Hooray for doing a worse job at containing it, or hooray or having a worse death rate?

And we get that you hate the health system, but if you could try your best to leave your bias out of these threads they would be a lot less tiresome.


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> Any that have not already been dealt with here?
> 
> They did not have any representatives from his family - nor did they reference that they had invited them, which is odd in my book - because they should have done so.
> 
> I doubt that they would have accepted though for a variety of reasons, but a big one that I would like to see answered is what the TX law is on criminally negligent homicide is. Because we know that someone was at the hospital with him. And if that person knew that he had been to Liberia and had been around sick people and that person said or did nothing, then there is a chance that that person is culpable in his death.
> 
> Why would the nurses feel any defensiveness? They felt like they had done the absolute best that they could have in the situation.
> 
> And again, one said that Duncan was not truthful to her. First person. Words from his mouth to her ears. Specific questions. And she said he lied. Now, she may be lying about that, but that I cannot really see any reason for her to do so. I would also have a hard time believing that conversation was not recorded or documented somehow.
> 
> And again - they said that the Dallas hospital was following ALL CDC protocols at the time. The hospital took more strenuous measures on their own, not at anyone else's urging or request.
> 
> Hooray for doing a worse job at containing it, or hooray or having a worse death rate?
> 
> And we get that you hate the health system, but if you could try your best to leave your bias out of these threads they would be a lot less tiresome.


Someone is culpable in the death of someone who died from a disease contracted overseas and for which there is no cure?

I don't get it. At all.


----------



## vpkozel

If that person had information that could lead to treatment of said disease but withheld that information, then yes, depending on TX law that could be considered criminally negligent. It would be no different than withholding any other medically important information.

And, haven't you spent the entire thread trying to hold the hospital, the healthcare system, and a variety of other people culpable for the death of someone who died from a disease contracted overseas and for which there is no cure?


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> If that person had information that could lead to treatment of said disease but withheld that information, then yes, depending on TX law that could be considered criminally negligent. It would be no different than withholding any other medically important information.
> 
> And, haven't you spent the entire thread trying to hold the hospital, the healthcare system, and a variety of other people culpable for the death of someone who died from a disease contracted overseas and for which there is no cure?


No. Go back and read what I have written. I have said that the hospital and its employees acted like a bunch of clowns in a three-ring circus when it comes to using common sense to prevent the spread of Ebola. That's what I've said.

And it's still a he-said-she-said. You said it yourself: We only heard from one side in the 60 Minutes program. The clowns' side.


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> OK, here's what I want to know.
> 
> Why do we know this guy's name? Why is his photograph everywhere in the media? Why do we know details about his health, where he has traveled, when he has traveled, etc., etc., etc.? Does HIPPA just go out the window if it is Ebola? If he had been white and wealthy, would we know his name? Have his photograph? Access to his medical information?
> 
> Conversely, why don't we know the name of the doctor and other medical personnel who, apparently, screwed up and sent the guy home even though they'd been told that he had recently come from an area with an Ebola crisis? Why aren't their photographs in the media? Why can't I see their records to determine if this was a one-time mistake or one of many treatment errors they've made?
> 
> Maybe it is just me, but I would way rather know the names of the doctors who screwed this up than the name of the poor soul who died. That way, I could take steps to ensure that neither I nor my spouse (or my dog, for that matter) are put in the hands of health care professionals so incompetent that they can't recognize Ebola even after being told "Hey, I just got back from Africa and I have all the symptoms of Ebola."





32rollandrock said:


> ^^
> 
> Media accounts have been clear: The patient informed his health care providers that he had recently been in Africa in an area where Ebola has been rampant--he made no attempt to hide anything. The accounts I have read have been consistent in this regard. If you had just come from Africa, where you had been in close contact and indeed helped people with Ebola, as this person reportedly did, why would you try hiding that? Wouldn't you tell your physicians everything you could? Where are you getting your information that he concealed his trip to Africa?
> 
> The media accounts have been consistent: His treatment providers were informed but failed to take appropriate action. I do not believe in plastering someone's photo on the media so that people can say "Hey, I saw a guy who looks like that on the subway yesterday, I'd better get checked out." Much better, I think, to distribute the name and photo of the patient's treating physician and others who screwed up so that others can avoid these alleged health care professionals and instead find competent care. That way, incompetent doctors and their enablers would have to find new lines of work that do not involve life-and-death decisions.
> 
> And yes, there were protocols in place requiring ER's and hospitals throughout the United States to screen for Ebola. That's why what happened at this hospital is so outrageous. There should be real consequences for the people who did not do their jobs and so placed so many people at risk. But watch: We'll never learn their names. They'll never lose their jobs. They'll scream about how they have rights to privacy and employment and all that jazz, and you or I or someone we love will never be the wiser when we walk into a hospital expecting competent treatment.





32rollandrock said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/...-seek-those-who-had-contact-with-patient.html
> 
> Since then, the report has been updated, with the hospital shifting blame internally, but the gist remains the same. Everyone from the start seems to have acknowledged that hospital employees screwed up, we're just not allowed to know their names. If it was a doctor, certainly, I think the name should be released as soon as possible so that patients, potential and otherwise, can make informed decisions about providers. Personally, I would have qualms about treatment from a doctor who botched an Ebola screen in the way this one seems to have been botched.
> 
> As for him living there, read today that he had been living there, but had come back here to rekindle some sort of romance. And even worse if he'd lived there, because the hospital would have asked him for his address during admission.
> 
> Haven't heard anything about prosecutors being interested in the guy. Do you have anything on that?





32rollandrock said:


> As the person who brought this up, I think that it is extremely relevant. Based on initial reports, it had seemed that health professionals had screwed up and endangered people, and that still remains unclear. I think that sick and dying people have the right to get the best care possible and make informed decisions about treatment providers. Re-read the thread and you'll see that. And you cannot separate medical care/pandemics from socio-economic and even racial questions/issues. I don't think that the thread has gone off course. At all.


I only went through the first few pages. Most all of these quotes mention Duncan's treatment, not worry about spreading of the virus.


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> I only went through the first few pages. Most all of these quotes mention Duncan's treatment, not worry about spreading of the virus.


Dude,

Most everything you've just quoted pertains to mistakes that opened the door to the virus spreading. There was some stuff about HIPPA, but nothing at all about treating Duncan so that he wouldn't die. How'd you score on the reading comprehension section of your SAT's?


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> Dude,
> 
> Most everything you've just quoted pertains to mistakes that opened the door to the virus spreading. There was some stuff about HIPPA, but nothing at all about treating Duncan so that he wouldn't die. How'd you score on the reading comprehension section of your SAT's?


My reading comprehension is just fine thanks. Good enough to get into your rival actually. As I said, that was just a smattering. But when you reference "that poor soul" and the specifics of his treatment and how it would have been different had he been of a different race or class, and don't mention how that would relate to transmission of the virus then you are going to have a hard time saying that is what you were talking about. And I am not going to turn this into a retractive debate about what you may or may not have meant.

and if you were so worried about transmission then I really can't see how you are NOT up in arms about Duncan's (at best) fudging of the truth.


----------



## SG_67

With the exception of Duncan and the nurse who contracted it with him, I don't believe there have been any cases of Ebola actually contracted here. I may be wrong and if so, someone please correct me. 

The same way as an act of natural takes on political overtones (Hurricane/Super Storm Sandy and Hurricane Katrina), so too has been disease.


----------



## 32rollandrock

You continue to twist my words and insist that I've said things that I have not said.

Have a nice day.



vpkozel said:


> My reading comprehension is just fine thanks. Good enough to get into your rival actually. As I said, that was just a smattering. But when you reference "that poor soul" and the specifics of his treatment and how it would have been different had he been of a different race or class, and don't mention how that would relate to transmission of the virus then you are going to have a hard time saying that is what you were talking about. And I am not going to turn this into a retractive debate about what you may or may not have meant.
> 
> and if you were so worried about transmission then I really can't see how you are NOT up in arms about Duncan's (at best) fudging of the truth.


----------



## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> With the exception of Duncan and the nurse who contracted it with him, I don't believe there have been any cases of Ebola actually contracted here. I may be wrong and if so, someone please correct me.
> 
> The same way as an act of natural takes on political overtones (Hurricane/Super Storm Sandy and Hurricane Katrina), so too has been disease.


Actually, Duncan, likely, did not contract Ebola in the United States. Nurse, different matter.


----------



## SG_67

^ Sorry for the confusion, that's what I meant. The Duncan case and the nurse who contracted it from him.


----------



## 32rollandrock

SG_67 said:


> ^ Sorry for the confusion, that's what I meant. The Duncan case and the nurse who contracted it from him.


Perspective is always good. As someone pointed out to me recently, more Illinois governors have gone to prison than Americans have died from Ebola contracted in the United States.


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> You continue to twist my words and insist that I've said things that I have not said.
> 
> Have a nice day.


I am sorry that you feel that I have been doing that, as it is most certainly not my intent.

I hope that you have a nice day as well.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

vpkozel said:


> And, haven't you spent the entire thread trying to hold the hospital, the healthcare system, and a variety of other people culpable for the death of someone who died from a disease contracted overseas and for which there is no cure?


You noticed that too??

HA!!


----------



## WouldaShoulda

White House opposes State imposed quarantine....



> President Obama on Wednesday said he is "frustrated" by political leaders who are pursuing Ebola policies that would "have us running in the opposite direction and hiding under the covers."
> The president spoke after meeting with heathcare workers who recently returned from the heart of the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, and called the doctors and nurses "heroes" who deserve to be treated "with dignity and with respect."


https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...we-cant-beat-ebola-by-hiding-under-the-covers

Meanwhile; back at the Pentagon...



> Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel approved a mandatory 21-day quarantine Wednesday morning for all military personnel returning from Ebola-affected countries in West Africa. Responding to a request from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Hagel authorized the measure out of "an abundance of caution" to protect against the spread of the virus. Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby affirmed at a briefing that Hagel's highest priority was "the safety and security of our men and women in uniform and their families."


https://www.usnews.com/opinion/arti...ntine-for-military-returning-from-west-africa

Dignity and respect for civilian healthcare volunteers, none for military volunteers.

Go Bama!! :thumbs-up:


----------



## WouldaShoulda

You know how the Pres. doesn't do photo ops!!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/29/obama-ebola_n_6068642.html

Hey, who forgot to put the stethoscope on that doctor??



> Yet not all parts of the federal government are entirely on board with the president's message. The U.S. Army on Monday instituted a three-week quarantine for soldiers working in West Africa -- even though they haven't been interacting with Ebola victims. On Wednesday, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel announced that the entire Defense Department would quarantine all troops returning from Ebola missions.
> Obama defended the discrepancy Tuesday by saying people in the military live in a stricter environment to begin with, suggesting that defense personnel wouldn't mind quarantine as much as health care workers would.
> "They are already, by definition, if they're in the military, under more circumscribed conditions," Obama said.


WTF??


----------



## SG_67

^ he's not good at the whole "optics thing".

Like when he tee'd off 5 minutes after discussing an American citizen getting beheaded on video by terrorists.

Yeah, let's cut him slack as any normal human being would probably already have one foot out the door and thinking of birdieing the next hole after something like that as well.


----------



## MaxBuck

32rollandrock said:


> And, let's not forget, how it's been handled by the health care system. There's no one in this equation who can stand up and be proud of themselves.


And yet only one death.

I completely disagree with your premise. The response was both effective and appropriate. I have few kudos to offer to the Obama administration, but the Ebola "crisis" was a rare occasion of competency.


----------



## 32rollandrock

MaxBuck said:


> And yet only one death.
> 
> I completely disagree with your premise. The response was both effective and appropriate. I have few kudos to offer to the Obama administration, but the Ebola "crisis" was a rare occasion of competency.


If the response was so effective, why was the president so p.o'd?

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/amid-assurances-on-ebola-obama-is-said-to-seethe.html

Or perhaps this is just another hatchet job by the NYT filled with half-truths.

I'm not so sure we are yet out of the Ebola woods.


----------



## MaxBuck

32rollandrock said:


> If the response was so effective, why was the president so p.o'd?
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/amid-assurances-on-ebola-obama-is-said-to-seethe.html
> 
> Or perhaps this is just another hatchet job by the NYT filled with half-truths.
> 
> I'm not so sure we are yet out of the Ebola woods.


I don't measure the effectiveness of public health response by the momentary mood of the POTUS. I measure it by actual prevention of disease, which in this case has been exemplary.


----------



## 32rollandrock

MaxBuck said:


> I don't measure the effectiveness of public health response by the momentary mood of the POTUS. I measure it by actual prevention of disease, which in this case has been exemplary.


I'm more impressed by what Nigeria did.


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> I'm more impressed by what Nigeria did.


Which part? The higher overall number of cases or higher death rate?


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> Which part? The higher overall number of cases or higher death rate?


That a country with such limited resources located in the region where there are outbreaks everywhere has, according to WHO, wiped out the disease within its borders and, given there were just 20 cases, been pretty successful at preventing its spread. That's much more impressive, in my opinion, than a country as far away as the U.S. from the epicenter having one death. How many people in Brazil have died from Ebola? None. Mexico? None. France? None. Start naming industrialized, or even non-industrialized countries outside Africa and I suspect you'll find that the U.S. ranks high in the number of cases of Ebola. In fact, I just looked it up and the U.S. ranks fifth in the world in the number of cases and has had the most outbreaks of Ebola outside Africa.

Put another way, the U.S. is doing the worst at preventing and treating Ebola of any nation outside Africa.


----------



## JJR512

You have a greater chance of being run over by a drunk unicorn than getting Ebola.

Nevertheless, the ambulance company I work for has completed preparations for being able to transport an Ebola patient. We're under contract to a government agency.


----------



## JJR512

32rollandrock said:


> That a country with such limited resources located in the region where there are outbreaks everywhere has, according to WHO, wiped out the disease within its borders and, given there were just 20 cases, been pretty successful at preventing its spread. That's much more impressive, in my opinion, than a country as far away as the U.S. from the epicenter having one death. How many people in Brazil have died from Ebola? None. Mexico? None. France? None. Start naming industrialized, or even non-industrialized countries outside Africa and I suspect you'll find that the U.S. ranks high in the number of cases of Ebola. In fact, I just looked it up and the U.S. ranks fifth in the world in the number of cases and has had the most outbreaks of Ebola outside Africa.
> 
> Put another way, the U.S. is doing the worst at preventing and treating Ebola of any nation outside Africa.


This is ludicrous. This is like...imagine taking ten homeless broke men, giving one of them three pennies, and proclaiming him to be the richest person in the group. Technically, the statement is correct, but it's highly misleading.

The US has a few Ebola-infected people, and a few hundred million non-Ebola-infected people. The fact is, the U.S. is probably doing more to prevent and treat Ebola than any other nation on the planet. We have more Ebola-infected people here because we're actually doing something, much in the same way that a used kitchen is dirtier than an unused kitchen.


----------



## MaxBuck

JJR512 said:


> You have a greater chance of being run over by a drunk unicorn than getting Ebola.


This.

Again, one death, and that of a man who came into the US with the disease, contracted in west Africa. If only all government responses could be so "incompetent."


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> That a country with such limited resources located in the region where there are outbreaks everywhere has, according to WHO, wiped out the disease within its borders and, given there were just 20 cases, been pretty successful at preventing its spread. That's much more impressive, in my opinion, than a country as far away as the U.S. from the epicenter having one death. How many people in Brazil have died from Ebola? None. Mexico? None. France? None. Start naming industrialized, or even non-industrialized countries outside Africa and I suspect you'll find that the U.S. ranks high in the number of cases of Ebola. In fact, I just looked it up and the U.S. ranks fifth in the world in the number of cases and has had the most outbreaks of Ebola outside Africa.
> 
> Put another way, the U.S. is doing the worst at preventing and treating Ebola of any nation outside Africa.


As far as I am aware, the US had 2 transmissions in country - and both of those are linked to the same guy who may have misled medical personnel about his circumstances.


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> As far as I am aware, the US had 2 transmissions in country - and both of those are linked to the same guy who* may* have misled medical personnel about his circumstances.


Thank you for recognizing that there is doubt about what Duncan told the hospital on his first visit.

It should also be noted that if a certain hospital in Dallas had competently dealt with Duncan, there would be zero cases of Ebola being transmitted in the United States.


----------



## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> Thank you for recognizing that there is doubt about what Duncan told the hospital on his first visit.


I think that I have always recognized that there was doubt. It has been you who speaks of certainties.

To wit....



> It should also be noted that if a certain hospital in Dallas had competently dealt with Duncan, there would be zero cases of Ebola being transmitted in the United States.


----------



## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> I think that I have always recognized that there was doubt. It has been you who speaks of certainties.
> 
> To wit....


I'll stand by that statement. Both nurses contracted Ebola after Duncan returned to the hospital. There have been multiple reports of the hospital giving lip service to training--it wasn't mandatory, and it was, essentially, listening to a prepared statement as opposed to hands-on training that involved demonstrations on how to don and remove protective gear. They were uncertain about what precautions to take, for example, whether necks should be covered and how and where to remove protective clothing. And so, had the hospital been prepared and the staff properly trained, it is very likely that there would still be no cases of Ebola being transmitted on U.S. soil.


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## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> I'll stand by that statement. Both nurses contracted Ebola after Duncan returned to the hospital. There have been multiple reports of the hospital giving lip service to training--it wasn't mandatory, and it was, essentially, listening to a prepared statement as opposed to hands-on training that involved demonstrations on how to don and remove protective gear. They were uncertain about what precautions to take, for example, whether necks should be covered and how and where to remove protective clothing. And so, had the hospital been prepared and the staff properly trained, it is very likely that there would still be no cases of Ebola being transmitted on U.S. soil.


Did you ever watch that 60 minutes piece? The nurses there specifically said that they were following existing guidelines. It was the hospital that took the steps to enhance those procedures on their own. And while you obviously poo-pooed it, you also had a hospital administrator on a conference call saying that they did a good job and that following the reactions to this outbreak would bankrupt her hospital.

I get that you despise the healthcare system and you sometimes have some good points - but they just get lost in all of the vitriol.


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## SG_67

Here's my prediction:

After tomorrow, there will be ZERO stories about Ebola. The same goes for the Ebola Czar.


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## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> Did you ever watch that 60 minutes piece? The nurses there specifically said that they were following existing guidelines. It was the hospital that took the steps to enhance those procedures on their own. And while you obviously poo-pooed it, you also had a hospital administrator on a conference call saying that they did a good job and that following the reactions to this outbreak would bankrupt her hospital.
> 
> I get that you despise the healthcare system and you sometimes have some good points - but they just get lost in all of the vitriol.


OK, we can go through this again: The nurses who worked for the hospital that screwed up said that they did nothing wrong. It's not like they had any skin in this game, right? Getting Ebola under control didn't bankrupt Nigeria. I don't see any reason why buying hazmat suits and rubber gloves and masks should bankrupt hospitals here. And you are absolutely right: I have a lot of issues with the health care system in the United States. Anyone who doesn't have issues with the health care system in the United States is either profiteering from the system or not paying attention.

And I agree with SG. after tomorrow, Ebola will be best remembered here as inspiration for bad Halloween costumes.


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## WouldaShoulda

SG_67 said:


> Here's my prediction:
> 
> After tomorrow, there will be ZERO stories about Ebola. The same goes for the Ebola Czar.


I'll follow up to make sure our soldiers returning from the region are treated with dignity and respect.


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## vpkozel

32rollandrock said:


> OK, we can go through this again: The nurses who worked for the hospital that screwed up said that they did nothing wrong. It's not like they had any skin in this game, right? Getting Ebola under control didn't bankrupt Nigeria. I don't see any reason why buying hazmat suits and rubber gloves and masks should bankrupt hospitals here. And you are absolutely right: I have a lot of issues with the health care system in the United States. Anyone who doesn't have issues with the health care system in the United States is either profiteering from the system or not paying attention.
> 
> And I agree with SG. after tomorrow, Ebola will be best remembered here as inspiration for bad Halloween costumes.


You keep discounting every statement that is contrary to your view as being self serving or only because they have skin in the game, but any statement that supports your view is pure as the driven snow - in one case even when the information comes from the SAME SOURCE!

And you also want to hold up Nigeria as a bright, shining beacon, but say nothing of the way that they accomplished their amazing goal of having death and transmission rates that are both HIGHER than the US, and that we have any death or transmission rate at all might very well be because US patient zero lied.

But sure, keep extolling the virtues of one small piece of a very large puzzle while discounting all of the downsides.

You remind me of the guy who knows all of the right hold 'em plays after all the cards have been revealed.


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## SG_67

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'll follow up to make sure our soldiers returning from the region are treated with dignity and respect.


Hear, hear!


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## justonemore

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'll follow up to make sure our soldiers returning from the region are treated with dignity and respect.


What is your definition of "dignity and respect" as it pertains to professional soldiers and quarantines? Soldiers that have sworn to (and are paid to) follow orders? Has the military now become an organization of individual choice? In my time, if you were told to stay somewhere for 3 weeks, you stayed there for 3 weeks. If you were told no booze, there was no booze (for the most part). Same for cigarettes/tobacco. Same for civilian rations. Same for pretty much anything.


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## MaxBuck

justonemore said:


> What is your definition of "dignity and respect" as it pertains to professional soldiers and quarantines?


Plenty of good beer, reading material, and access to ESPN.


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## 32rollandrock

vpkozel said:


> You keep discounting every statement that is contrary to your view as being self serving or only because they have skin in the game, but any statement that supports your view is pure as the driven snow - in one case even when the information comes from the SAME SOURCE!
> 
> And you also want to hold up Nigeria as a bright, shining beacon, but say nothing of the way that they accomplished their amazing goal of having death and transmission rates that are both HIGHER than the US, and that we have any death or transmission rate at all might very well be because US patient zero lied.
> 
> But sure, keep extolling the virtues of one small piece of a very large puzzle while discounting all of the downsides.
> 
> You remind me of the guy who knows all of the right hold 'em plays after all the cards have been revealed.


So you think the staff at the Dallas hospital are objective sources of information?


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## Odradek

SG_67 said:


> Here's my prediction:
> 
> After tomorrow, there will be ZERO stories about Ebola. The same goes for the Ebola Czar.


*Here's Why Ebola Is No Longer In the News*

Forbes' David Kroll - an adjunct professor at Duke University Medical Center - notes:


> _The Associated Press and other press outlets have agreed not to report on suspected cases of Ebola in the United States until a positive viral RNA test is completed._
> ​


In other words, the mainstream media has agreed not to report on any _suspected_ Ebola cases.


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## WouldaShoulda

justonemore said:


> What is your definition of "dignity and respect" as it pertains to professional soldiers and quarantines? Soldiers that have sworn to (and are paid to) follow orders? Has the military now become an organization of individual choice? In my time, if you were told to stay somewhere for 3 weeks, you stayed there for 3 weeks. If you were told no booze, there was no booze (for the most part). Same for cigarettes/tobacco. Same for civilian rations. Same for pretty much anything.


Not mine, President Obama's.

He decided that quarantine is emblematic of disrespect and indignity.

Soldiers should not have to undergo disrespect and indignity because the CIC says so.


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## WouldaShoulda

Odradek said:


> *....* the mainstream media has agreed not to report on any _suspected_ Ebola cases.


It's about time.


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## 32rollandrock

Odradek said:


> *Here's Why Ebola Is No Longer In the News*
> 
> Forbes' David Kroll - an adjunct professor at Duke University Medical Center - notes:In other words, the mainstream media has agreed not to report on any _suspected_ Ebola cases.


Anyone who believes that the media gets together, or can get together, and decide anything regarding coverage decisions also leaves money under their pillow for the tooth fairy. Of all the silly Ebola stories that have been printed, this one has my vote for the silliest.


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