# question about wearing dress shirts without tie



## techman (Mar 8, 2011)

I wear khaki or brown colored slacks to work with a button down shirt.
I'm about to invest in a new set of shirts and I like the look, wrinkle-resistance and price of Nordstrom's Smartcare colored long-sleeve dress shirts.
https://shop.nordstrom.com/S/nordst...shirt/3196073?origin=category&resultback=1462

My question.. Is it necessary to wear ties with these type of shirts? - meaning would it
look appropriate to wear these shirts without a tie. Also
Should I button the buttons on the color if not wearing a tie with these shirts?


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## Canadian (Jan 17, 2008)

Feel free to wear them without a tie. Don't do up the top button. 

Tom


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

There's no rule against it, but you can probably find better shirts than that to wear without a tie. The button down oxford cloth is not nearly as formal a shirt and would look better than that shirt.

If you wear it without a tie, most men would not button the top button. You will look like you are trying to make some sort of fashion statement if you wear that shirt without a tie without the collar button buttoned.

If it were me, I would only buy that shirt to wear with suits and ties. (Possibly with a sport coat.)

You would not be violating any "rule", but it's still probably not the best idea.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I also think button-down collars are the best suited to wearing without a tie, but this is just bias on my part. Any shirt with soft, unfused collar and cuffs can look quite good worn casually. Usually, wrinkle resistant/non-iron/easy care shirts do not have quite the same look, as they use a fused interfacing to maintain the shirt's crisp look when washing and drying.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

It would look perfectly appropriate to wear this shirt without a tie.

As already mentioned, don't button the collar button (the one in the middle, that makes the collar tight around your neck).

_*Do*_ button the two buttons on the collar points.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Those are fine for wearing open-necked. See Starch's post for the standard approach of wearing that kind of shirt without a tie.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I guess that I did not see it was a button down collar. I still think there are better choices for business casual, but that's just my eye.

A lot of dress shirts don't look that good without a tie, especially solid colored ones.


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## some_dude (Nov 9, 2008)

I prefer button down shirts when I'm not wearing a tie.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

The shirts you are proposing to buy will look great, when worn with or without a tie! Don't stress yourself out over it.


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## tocqueville (Nov 15, 2009)

Be sure to wear v- neck shirts undershirts. Keep that white cotton or whatever color it is out of sight:


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Or wrap a kerchief around your neck under the collar. HRH Prince Charles and Will Boelke (ASW) both favor the look.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

*He's wearing these shirts to work.*

Old Sarge, I agree with almost everything you post, but unless (maybe) you are in the movie industry, there is no way anyone should be wearing a neckerchief to work. (Maybe you did not notice he was wearing them to work.)

In fact, unless you are completely socially confident and in a situation where others' opinions of you don't matter much, you should probably avoid neckerchiefs totally.

When I do a certain music gig, I might consider it, but unless I'm in an old-fashioned cowboy outfit for (a few, not many) country band, I would probably not do it.

The Duke of Windsor did not live in the world most of us have to inhabit.

In Will's case, he's an acknowledged fashion expert, not someone going to work in an average office (especially doing tech work.) I'll bet even Will (who I have always respected) will admit that there is a time and place for the neckerchief.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

I wore a neckerchief to go skeet shooting on Saturday! Of course, I tucked the ends into my shirt, and I had a couple of layers of collars over it. To any but the keenest-eyed observer, I'm sure it was indistinguishable from a neck-gaiter. In any event, there were no adverse comments or even funny looks (no way the double-barreled 12 gauge shotgun had anything to do with that!), and the only clothing-related comment I garnered was that I looked like I had been "doing this (shooting skeet) for a while." Of course, the high winds and my ineptitude quickly dispelled any notions that I was especially experienced or skilled! 

Neckerchiefs are great for outdoor activities in relatively cold weather, since they really keep a lot of warmth in, but can be removed if you get overheated. It's like being able to adjust the thermostat outside by a good 10°. 

All that said, forsberg', I agree that wearing them to the office would take a pretty bold spirit in many situations.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'll agree with you; they can work for outdoor activities in cold weather. Not for the office or for most social situations unless you hang with a crew of folks that won't be put off by the neckerchief. 

(Most average ordinary middle class situations don't apply here.)


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

Actually, I _didn't_ notice that he was wearing this for work but while in the vast majority of the country I would have to agree with you as far as the kerchief-at-work goes, the OP lives in Palo Alto. That's Silicon Valley. Whether he actually inhabits the Tech industry, I am unable to derive from his question. But if he is, no one would bat an eye if he wore a kerchief. Yes, it is eccentric. Yes, I on rare occasions have been know to sport one, though not often. However, an erect carriage, a brisk walking pace and a straight face will overwhelm almost anyone, anywhere. I've even worn a kilt to teach sixth graders in and gotten away with it. Of course, the kids thought it was cool. Anything a teacher does that's different is cool at that age but the principal saw nothing outre' about it, either.

But if anyone is the least bit hesitant about trying the kerchief/scarf/ascot look, by no means should they try it! In fact, outside of the movie industry, academia and tech, I would never recommend that anyone wear it to work . . . unless you own the company, of course. Or possibly are such a highly valued 'gunslinger' that no one dares criticize you about anything. I've heard such people do exist . . .

Anyway, criticism so noted.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Not for... most social situations unless you hang with a crew of folks that won't be put off by the neckerchief.


Or unless you have a healthy sense of humor and can take a few barbs. I know several people who will often deliberately dress to provoke good-natured ribbing from their friends... it's a sort of sartorial self-deprecation. In the absence of such people, it's hard to figure out to whom Brooks Brothers is selling tartan trousers every winter. Anyway, wear a neckerchief or ascot to brunchor dinner with friends; just have your wits about you and be prepared to make fun of something they are wearing.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

And if, by some chance, your well-to-do mother-in-law compliments you on the look, take it as one of life's little pleasant surprises.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> When I do a certain music gig, I might consider it, but unless I'm in an old-fashioned cowboy outfit for (a few, not many) country band, I would probably not do it.


Which reminds me:

Q: What is 60 feet long and has three teeth?

Q: The front row at a Willie Nelson concert.

:icon_jokercolor:

But seriously folks, I am glad this discussion came up because I wanted to get some clarification about wearing shirts without ties. I believe Jovan has stated previously that the button down collar is best for this, but I was just wondering how much latitude there is on this point.

What I've noticed is that with a non-button down shirt, the collar point points tend to go _every which way_, no, it doesn't look very tidy at all. Nevertheless, if they could be tamed I think it would look very sharp.

I think I saw an option on a MTM shirt company for collar buttons that were _*under*_ the collar points, I wondered how difficult it might be to button those.

Anyone seen those?

Anyone wear non-button down shirts without a tie? (I am doing it occasionally but just as an experiment. I wear the collar buttoned all the way to my neck as I'm driving to the hospital to try to get the collar molded into place, hmmm, not perfectly successful so far.)

Guys like me with little to no experience need you experts to help guide us! ! !

Thanks! ! !

PS I'll tell you something funny, since my wardrobe is very much a beginning work in progress, I have a pair of dark jeans I'll wear with a dress shirt, (tie or not), sport coat, and dress shoes or black athletic shoes. This is so uncharacteristic, seriously from a distance a few nurses have commented that I am wearing a suit. People are now making comments when they see me, I am actually getting self-conscious about it, but overall it is a good thing.

OK that was way off-topic, my apologies.


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## zzdocxx (Sep 26, 2011)

Oldsarge said:


> an erect carriage,


A wha? ? ? 



Oldsarge said:


> Or possibly are such a highly valued 'gunslinger' that no one dares criticize you about anything. I've heard such people do exist . . .


They'd be so shocked they'd probably tell me they love it, and then start whispering about whether I was gay, seriously.

I need to get some better clothes, OldSarge, I await your verdict on your mytailor shirts.


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## Youthful Repp-robate (Sep 26, 2011)

I've got a hidden button down shirt (gingham sportshirt from the thrift), zzdocxx. I'm not crazy about it, though Will from ASW wore them in a few posts (linked at bottom).

I do wear shirts with point or spread collars sans tie. I can't say I've seen the points "go every which way," although I do sometimes keep collar stays (okay, let's be real: they're paperclips) in them when I'm tieless. It's okay, though I prefer the way button-down collars frame my face.

ASW on hidden button-downs:

https://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2009/08/dress-shirt-informality.html

With tie:

https://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2009/11/gray-black-and-white.html

Without tie:

https://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2010/02/ugh.html


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

Modern Tailor has a hidden buttondown collar among its options. I'm sure they're not alone in that, though it also does not seem to be a very common style. Or ... maybe it is, and the buttons are so well-hidden, I don't even know they're there?

I'm not sure what the hidden buttondown looks like without a tie. It actually might turn out more weird looking than an askew straight collar. I don't really know. If I've ever seen one, I didn't know it.

Lots of sport shirts have non-buttondown collars that don't fly around crazily without a tie, though that does happen with some dress shirt collars, if not all of them. Just to cite one rather obvious example: polo shirt collars look pretty normal, and they (almost) never button down. I guess smaller and softer are advantages.


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## Oldsarge (Feb 20, 2011)

zzdocxx said:


> A wha? ? ?


"erect carriage" : good posture with a superior attitude. Hold your head up and look down on people, especially people taller than you are.:biggrin2:

It's really intimidating.


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## Poindexter (Jul 22, 2010)

Whut he sez. I'm five feet five. You cannot let the bully look down upon you.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

This is popular at my place of work. No matter how high the rank, it always looks unfinished.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

zzdocxx said:


> Anyone wear non-button down shirts without a tie? (I am doing it occasionally but just as an experiment.


Is this a joke? Yes, with great frequency.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Orsini said:


> This is popular at my place of work. No matter how high the rank, it always looks unfinished.


Depends on how it's worn.


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## Blueboy1938 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Pinpoint IS Oxford*



forsbergacct2000 said:


> There's no rule against it, but you can probably find better shirts than that to wear without a tie. The button down oxford cloth is not nearly as formal a shirt and would look better than that shirt.


Oxford cloth comes in three grades, depending on the thread count: Plain Oxford, Pinpoint Oxford, and Royal Oxford, in ascending level of perceived formality. Hence, the Pinpoint, while more "formal" than the plain, is still a relatively "soft" and informal cloth style.

Unless one is particularly fussy, a shirt made of any of these should be perfectly suited to wear without a tie, with or without collar point buttoning. It's broadcloth - plain or end-to-end - that is usually considered to be the most formal day-to-day shirting, with poplin perhaps intermediary between that and the Oxfords in formality. A shirt made of any of them could be worn with an open collar, IMO, depending mainly on collar style.

As Jovan has pointed out, the stiffer the collar, the less likely it will look well open. That's because stiffer fused or otherwise reinforced (with built-in stays, for instance) collars are going to tend to protrude outward when unrestrained by a tie.


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