# Advice for a 1L on getting a summer associate position?



## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I know we have a lot of lawyers on the board. Do any of you have advice for a 1L who is short on connections but wants to get a summer associate position? Speaking of which, if any of you are in charge of hiring summer associates and would like to get someone in who isn't sartorially challenged...:icon_smile_big:


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## Mr. Magoo (Dec 23, 2003)

You mean apart from having stellar grades?

You'll probably do yourself more good by thinking of yourself 3 jobs down the line. Do you want to do securities -- do free work or near free work at SEC. Do you want to do litigation -- be a volunteer clerk for a judge or try to get into a DOJ program. Do you want to do environmental -- try a state or federal agency, etc. 

Or be creative -- what kind of grants can you get to go abroad? What about individual projects? How about working for a professor?

Some cash for that summer is nice, but your experience will be more valuable in the long run, especially if you plan on being a summer next year. Your experience can be greater than "oh I did some memos for my home town firm," which is summer associate best case scenario.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

So, the grades play a big role here even though they won't be available for some time (my last exam is the 17th). Eveyone (fellow 1Ls who really don't know, of course) says that this week and the next are when you need to have applied everywhere you plan on applying to. Is this not the case?

As far as what I want to do down the road, I would say transactional work of some kind (either corporate transactional or government contracts). I also have an interest in constutional law, but it's more of a personal interest than a professional interest (plus I've heard all about how I'll need to be published and teach first). I have nothing against litigation; in fact, it interests me, but I don't think that's where my strengths are (I don't see myself in court, and while I realize most litigation doesn't get to court, I feel like someone shouldn't say they want to work litigation without planning to be in court).

Working for s professor here is an option that isn't made available until so late in the year that it has to be treated as a fallback provision.

Is it not like a 2L summer associate position where if you do good work they'll have you back? I'm a big believer in company loyalty, even though I understand that in law it's a one way street of employee to employer if it exists at all.

Finally, should I play up that I have a fellowship here, or is it that the kind of thing that will make a lawyer say "so what, you pompous pissant"?

Thanks for the advice.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

Isn't there a careers office? I would have thought that this was part of the deal with any kind of trade school.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Concordia said:


> Isn't there a careers office? I would have thought that this was part of the deal with any kind of trade school.


There is, and they're somewhat useful, but sometimes it's better to talk to the people who currently work in the field. For instance, the career services people are just now coming around to it being ok to communicate with prospective employers via e-mail; last year they said never to e-mail. I have worked in legal HR and know that everything is done by e-mail.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Mr. Magoo said:


> You mean apart from having stellar grades?
> 
> You'll probably do yourself more good by thinking of yourself 3 jobs down the line. Do you want to do securities -- do free work or near free work at SEC. Do you want to do litigation -- be a volunteer clerk for a judge or try to get into a DOJ program. Do you want to do environmental -- try a state or federal agency, etc.
> 
> ...


+1 on Mr. Magoo's suggestions. Don't be afraid to volunteer somewhere. I volunteered at Legal Aid. Shows commitment etc.

People also do study abroad alot their first summer. My school, OSU, has an Oxford program that was popular, another guy I know went to another school's China program.

Didn't you work for legal headhunter/recruiter? Don't forget to mine your past connections. Bug the crap out of people. One of my big mistakes was not being aggressive enough.

Your first summer isn't the most critical one to gain experience. The second summer is. So don't stress too much.

Good luck.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

Concordia said:


> Isn't there a careers office? I would have thought that this was part of the deal with any kind of trade school.


They usually suck. Unless you have an unusually connected career services person, don't really add much value. Mostly they run the on campus interview process.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I worked as a headhunter, which means basically every law firm I came in contact with was in an adversarial situation. There is one that I think I have a positive relationship with: we had never had a placement with them, we were at the end of their list, I got a job order and then an hour later they dropped half the job requirements because it looked impossible to fill (meaning other agencies must have had it for a few weeks), yet an hour after that I filled it with the original requirements. I'm not sure how positive the experience was since the person is still temp in a temp-to-hire position, but they're a good government contracts firm so I will try and mine that one. I may have had professional respect from some others, but I definitley have to think about who I'm talking to before I make the connection.

We have a study abroad program in Spain. I've been to Spain, and I'm not keen on it. I wonder if I can piggyback off some other study abroad program; Germany or England would be nice.


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## Vladimir Berkov (Apr 19, 2005)

marlinspike said:


> I know we have a lot of lawyers on the board. Do any of you have advice for a 1L who is short on connections but wants to get a summer associate position? Speaking of which, if any of you are in charge of hiring summer associates and would like to get someone in who isn't sartorially challenged...:icon_smile_big:


I don't know about your school, but isn't it a little late to get a SA position? OCI at my school was in September, I would think most of the firms that did OCI already have people. I would guess you should concentrate on firms that don't participate in the OCI process, and who aren't locked in on that timeline.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Vladimir Berkov said:


> I don't know about your school, but isn't it a little late to get a SA position? OCI at my school was in September, I would think most of the firms that did OCI already have people. I would guess you should concentrate on firms that don't participate in the OCI process, and who aren't locked in on that timeline.


Are you a 2L or a 1L? 1L's are prohibited from contacting law firms (except for advice or representation in legal matters) before Dec 1.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> I worked as a headhunter, which means basically every law firm I came in contact with was in an adversarial situation. There is one that I think I have a positive relationship with: we had never had a placement with them, we were at the end of their list, I got a job order and then an hour later they dropped half the job requirements because it looked impossible to fill (meaning other agencies must have had it for a few weeks), yet an hour after that I filled it with the original requirements. I'm not sure how positive the experience was since the person is still temp in a temp-to-hire position, but they're a good government contracts firm so I will try and mine that one. I may have had professional respect from some others, but I definitley have to think about who I'm talking to before I make the connection.
> 
> We have a study abroad program in Spain. I've been to Spain, and I'm not keen on it. I wonder if I can piggyback off some other study abroad program; Germany or England would be nice.


You'd be surprised, there are many tales of lawyers hired by their adversaries in court etc...


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> Are you a 2L or a 1L? 1L's are prohibited from contacting law firms (except for advice or representation in legal matters) before Dec 1.


Oh yeah, does W&M get any Holiday party/Meet & Greet invitations from DC, Richmond etc firms? Many of the Cleveland & Columbus firms had these at OSU. They are generally BS, but can get you in the door at least.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

So far all I have seen is stuff for minority students. While the average guy on the street wouldn't think me caucasian, I technically am and so I don't get the benefits of those.


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> Don't be afraid to volunteer somewhere.


This is great advice.

There are three ways to get good law jobs:

1. Be at the top of the class. 
2. Know a well-placed person. 
3. Stand out somehow.

Strategy 1 is hard to accomplish for first-years, since you don't have any grades when you need to start looking.

Strategy 2 is ... well, limited to the winners of life's lottery.

So that leave No. 3. Volunteering doesn't have to be limited to poverty-based legal-aid situations. On the advice of the most helpful job-hunting adviser that my school ever arranged (a charismatic but academically-challenged recent graduate who got a dream job on little more than networking and diligence), I started looking around for things I could do for free that were in line with what I wanted to do. At the time that was criminal work, so I volunteered with my local prosecutor's office. They didn't advertise. They didn't have a program with my school. I just went down there and started asking around. I found a young prosecutor who needed help. I drafted two appeals for him, for a couple of pre-trial evidentiary motions that he lost. That experience gave me a resume item, a reference and a couple of writing samples, just as if it had been a real (paying) job.

That "job" helped me get an internship with the local federal court my third year. That internship got me my first job out of school, and so on.


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## samblau (Apr 2, 2005)

First year is very difficult............I hate to use a GI Joe reference but "knowing (someone important is half (all) the battle". As a first year attorney I must say that I hate giving this advice but the fact of the matter, at least in NY, is that you should be doing everything possible within the boundaries of the law to secure the best possible position because your real competition is doing that and then some. It is not an entirely bleak picture though....I waited until he end of June to get my 1L summer job and in the end it turned out to be a decent gig on Park Ave. and I stayed for nearly 2 yrs during school at $18 p/h (work study was $12 and my boss paid the full 20 hrs allowed during the year even though he didn't care if I sat there and studied) so I was happy. 

What are your strengths, where do you have expereince...apply to firms where those things may seperate your resume from the many others they receive. If you don't have a connection make one. Same college, same HS even same sports...some bosses, particularly male ones and enamored with athletes. Consider working in another area if you can get a better position....not all is lost if you don't work in NY/DC/LA etc. Even if you don't have direct connections try using undergrad networks, extended family etc. I say this only because I was too proud to resort to these tactics and now wish I did. 

As for your comments about minority hiring, I look at it this way. I was told flat out that I did not get a job because "they didn't need anyone like me". I don't agree (mostly because it cost me $$$$) however I know many smart people from all walks of life who live everyday with the stigma that they only got where they are to fill a quota. It is unfortunate and the resentment that comes from the old school bosses results in disfavorable treatments once they are hired and drives many qualified individuals in to different firms/fields. Rectifying a past injustice with more of the same is backwards but also an unfortunate reality. All I can say is that if you encounter it don't think that someone took "your" position because the chances are slim to none that you were marginalized as an individual. I say this in hindsight only because I lived through the anxiety of not having a job and not knowing if I would pass the bar. The best you can do is present yourself as a confident person, research the places you are interviewing at (but don't go in to minutia i.e. saying you want to work in X practice group on X case, get the job and then see what you can do). Maintain a good relationship with your career center, they are for the most part useless however it MAY help you at some point. Make sure you are involved in any honor societies, try as hard as you can to make law review, moot court or a journal (in that order of preference) and if you don't try to write-on and enter in to writing contests. These are especially important. Your 2L and 3L years try to take courses that aren't full of "gunners" i.e. in my school it was fed practice because all the kids that wanted to clerk were there. If you don't work PT do clinical programs, they are easy grades and provide good exp. Don't be picky...apply for what you want but don't dismiss doing work somewhere else because its easier to take a 2 credit course. Having a good relationship with the clinic instructor really helps in this regard. As with all aspects of law school, it is never too early to start making connections. When OCI comes around next year APPLY TO EVERYTHING. Better to say no to an offer than to be without. In short, do the opposite of everything I did and you will be fine. Hell, even if you screw up like me you'll still make out OK as long as you pass the Bar. Stay persistent and don't worry if offers don't flood in after a week, things take time. Best of luck to you, let us know how you do.


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## steveincharlotte (Aug 24, 2006)

I would support the volunteer option. If you pick something you love, you'll benefit twice as much from it, and stand the greatest chance of standing out. Standing out is really important, and you'll never stand out in the typical intern job (if there is such a thing) for 1L's. Speaking from personal experience, a stand-out with a W&M degree is hard to beat.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

I guess I'll hope for the best but plan on the volunteer option or maybe a small office local to W&M.

I'm with you on applying to everything Samblau. I honestly don't care where it is or what field it's in - I really don't think any 1L has the right to be picky. I simply have preferences (DC, Williamsburg/Richmond area, Charlotte and the above mentioned fields of law) that happen to be places where I have some sort of tie (from DC, went to Davidson College, now at W&M).

It gets a little disheartening hearing from the people who got a $2k+/wk job offer on the first day allowed without formally applying because dad is the childhood friend of a senior partner at a BigLaw firm, but I suppose that's life.


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## steveincharlotte (Aug 24, 2006)

marlinspike said:


> It gets a little disheartening hearing from the people who got a $2k+/wk job offer


Don't focus on the money! Focus on the experience!! You've got the rest of your life to make money.


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## samblau (Apr 2, 2005)

With all due respect, and I mean this sincerely, I volunteered in high school for both resume and personal reasons at the local county comptrollers office and through school at soup kitchens etc., in college less so but I was active in environmental groups etc. Aside from personal experience, which is in and of itself very worthwhile as well as the benefit conferred on those people these activities did not help me advance in my career or benefit me when applying to school. This is not to say that volunteering in not worthwhile but rather that no charitable group has ever turned down a check if you get my drift.

In regards to connections, in BigLaw nepotism is common but still carries distinct weight. Everyone knows who is there for what reason and it ultimately hurts your career. I worked at a moderate (for NYC) sized firm during law school with 50 approx. attys. and you couldn't say boo about any new hire because everyone knew someone thus causing undue tension in the office. 

If you want to be a pro bono/legal aid attorney bless your heart (as I heard when I was down in the vicinity of W&M) but if you live in the real world make a career decision. If you are happy in one aspect of your life it will enable you to become a more productive memeber of society. Once you are established the world could use some more pro bono attorneys as opposed to another bitter attorney who begrudingly takes a government job because they didn't get OCI. My eBay/working in school $ is how I stay afloat now and I make a decent wage for a 1st year....most if not all of my $ concerns have to due with the fact that I live in NY and went to a private school. The point is that for my 7 years of liberal education I could not afford to take a job in the public sector regardless of how wonderful the opportunity was and this is with substantial support from my family. If you get a wonderful opportunity i.e. clerking for a federal judge that position is worth paying for because the experience alone is worth thousands of dollars over your career. Its rather simple economic theory. Conversely don't take a job at legal aid if you are doing it begrudingly, because of some sense of guilt that you truly desire BigLaw or because it was your first offer. If you want to be a corproate attorney than you damn well should try to get in there. As in all aspects of life there must be balance. No one desires BigLaw but for the $$$. The hours stink, you get no valuable/exciting experience during the first few years and will be treated poorly and in all liklihood ultimately leave well before being considered for partner. Ont he other hand if you get in to a small shop, develop some contacts in a niche industry you can probobly do better in the end. Maybe I am just trying to convince myself of this.....however I have been working for about two months and I have already had motions I wrote decided on by a US Magistrate in NY. Find me a BigLaw 1st year who can say the same. Yeah I want more $$$$ but there is some satisfaction in knowing that I am the first atty in my family and that I got in to school, passed the bar and got a decent job on my own. You will be a lot happier in the long run if you do the same.


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

samblau said:


> No one desires BigLaw but for the $$$. The hours stink,


Actually, I want my life to be my job. I realize that sounds insane, but it's the truth. When I was a headhunter, even though I wasn't on commission, I would log in remotely on my own time so that I could do more work.

Oh, and "bless your heart" is southern for "isn't that nice of you" and "bless his heart" is southern for "now I can say whatever I want to about that person"


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## pleasehelp (Sep 8, 2005)

I would suggest molding your plan based upon what you plan to do post-graduation. Getting a 1L summer associate position can be a bit of a crapshoot. If you can get one that interests you then that's great. Otherwise, you might want to consider whether you can do something this summer that plugs a hole in your resume. For example, if you want to work somewhere outside of VA post-graduation, you might want to consider working in your target city for this summer to show future employers your commitment to that city.

In terms of locating opportunities, I would suggest (as other have) contacting your career center, searching online and talking to your friends at other schools. Some agencies have great programs that are poorly advertised (particularly to students at schools outside of the immediate area relative to those agencies).

Good luck in your search and on your finals. Getting strong grades will make the next job search much easier.


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## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

samblau said:


> If you want to be a pro bono/legal aid attorney bless your heart (as I heard when I was down in the vicinity of W&M) but if you live in the real world make a career decision.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Conversely don't take a job at legal aid if you are doing it begrudingly, because of some sense of guilt that you truly desire BigLaw or because it was your first offer.


I'll just point out that contrary to what some people's impression may be, it's actually very hard to get a job in Legal Services in most places. We are looking for people who can show a demonstrated commitment to serve poor people by working in the field before and during law school, an understanding of the lives and circumstances of poor people, and can be ready to handle litigation in complex areas of law independently after a pretty short period of orientation. Even when considering people for summer clerkships, I'm looking for this commitment with an eye to preparing the person to become a Legal Services lawyer when they graduate.


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## samblau (Apr 2, 2005)

jackmccullough said:


> I'll just point out that contrary to what some people's impression may be, it's actually very hard to get a job in Legal Services in most places. We are looking for people who can show a demonstrated commitment to serve poor people by working in the field before and during law school, an understanding of the lives and circumstances of poor people, and can be ready to handle litigation in complex areas of law independently after a pretty short period of orientation. Even when considering people for summer clerkships, I'm looking for this commitment with an eye to preparing the person to become a Legal Services lawyer when they graduate.


I agree completely....getting any job while in law school is tough. I beleive that private education and public service are like oil and water at this point in time. If top students will get $160k+ without a day of real work experience why are they the same folks that receive merit based scholarships? People who truly desire to go in to public service should be afforded an opportunity to earn a law degree without being forced into $250k in debt provided they are 1. qualified and 2. agree to serve a set number of years as a public service attorney. If they opt out they can pay back the full or a pro-rata share depending on when they made the decision. The system would be military like in that you can go to a professional school for free provided you serve 3-5 years.

Truth be told I think it would be great for young attorneys to start out doing pub service work when they are young. Doctors do residency work and often times provide low cost services at public clinics. The Bar Association has established a long list of ethical guidelines, why not include a public service requirement being built into the law school curriculum? 5-10 hours a week doing "real" work as opposed to learning about "law and film" would be a lot better use of time in my humble opinion. It would also make for better attorneys in the private practice world.


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## Phinn (Apr 18, 2006)

> why not include a public service requirement being built into the law school curriculum?


At Tulane Law School, it is.

_Tulane Law School was the first in the country to require pro bono legal work as a condition of graduation._


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## marlinspike (Jun 4, 2007)

Quite frankly I'd think the entire professoin would be better served by getting rid of the law school and going to an apprenticeship (many other countries follow this model).


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