# Brooks Brothers - not the same store



## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

Let me say a few things first:
I used to work there.
I really really like some of the folks who work there.
Some of the folks there are incredibly knowledgeble.

I had a MTM suit done for me, and I got measured by some hot shot tailor down from NY just for the special trunk show. He did seem to know what he was doing.

Suit comes - and doesn't fit perfectly, but I expected a few alterations would be needed from the local store, so no problem.

Get it back - still not quiet right, so, they add a very slight shoulder pad. hmmm... shouldn't they have accounted for that? I see it on my measurement sheet, but it is as if the person making the suit, just didn't follow the directions.

Get it back, and still not right, the arms are wrong.
This time they tell me,"You are not built for a sack. We have had to alter this so much it is basically a 2 button."

I have 2 OTR Brooks Brothers sack jackets that fit me perfectly. 
I have a JPress OTR sack jacket that fits perfectly.
In fact, the only suit I have in my entire wardrobe that doesn't fit perfectly, is the MTM one.

Anyway, I picked it up today from what I hoped was the final alteration, and took it home. I was sweating and in a T-Shirt so I did not try it on in the store. Took it out of the bag when I got home, and I was shocked.
*They had pressed it into a 3 button with a hard crease! That's right. It wasn't some idiot dry clear, but Brooks Brothers themselves that pressed it incorrectly.*

I am writing this because I want folks to be warned.
I want stores that can get it right, to get buisness from stores that can't. We all love BB. We all want it to be store we imagine it to be. It LOOKS a lot like the store we want it to be. But, right now, even with Claudio del Vecchio trying to get it back to the way the old stores used to be, it is not there yet. And, it is a long way off.


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## flinch (Sep 8, 2008)

Time to move on. I worked for them in the golden years. It hasn't been what it use to be in 20 years.


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 13, 2008)

*Sorry to read this..*

Unlike a thread last month where someone blamed everyone else at BB for his failures/decisions on some sale merchandise, everything wrong seems to be clearly on their end.

They owe you a new suit.

Keep us posted on developments.


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## memphislawyer (Mar 2, 2007)

Sometimes, entities that try to grow just dont have the ability to replicate what made them successful on a smaller scale. I have had clients have a business, and then they get successful and open up second, third stores and when they get to the third one, the complaints pile up. Seems that they spend more time 'running' a business than what they did 'in business' that made them a success when they were a smaller operation. I told one guy to consider raising his prices, thus driving some business away but still being quality


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## WilliamMMLeftfoot (Jun 14, 2009)

The problem is management of course, How can an Italian run Brooks Brothers?


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

BB is radically different than the store I knew starting in the early 60's. They had, among other departments, an excellent custom shop for suits and shirts.The nadir was under Marks and Spencer, and it's somewhat better now, but when they expanded so radically, the quailty of their merchandise and the knowledgeability of their staff is radically inferior. The staff at J. Press is infinitely superior.I get my MTM stuff from Winston Tailors in N.Y.C.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

WilliamMMLeftfoot said:


> The problem is management of course, How can an Italian run Brooks Brothers?


I would very much like you to expand on that.


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

rsmeyer said:


> BB is radically different than the store I knew starting in the early 60's. They had, among other departments, an excellent custom shop for suits and shirts.The nadir was under Marks and Spencer, and it's somewhat better now, but when they expanded so radically, the quailty of their merchandise and the knowledgeability of their staff is radically inferior. The staff at J. Press is infinitely superior.I get my MTM stuff from Winston Tailors in N.Y.C.


Great point!
Mr. Winston, when are you coming to Charleston?


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## 35-Foxtrot (Jun 15, 2008)

Jovan said:


> I would very much like you to expand on that.


It's a rather self-explanatory quote.


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## Orsini (Apr 24, 2007)

...a couple more for the list...


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

35-Foxtrot said:


> It's a rather self-explanatory quote.


I think it's a rather insulting, stereotypes-R-us remark. Kind of like saying how could a black person be president or a white person succeed in hip hop or an Asian person sew a decent suit.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

That's what I'm hoping he'll clarify me on. I'm not sure if the remark is tinted with bigotry or not.


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## Reds & Tops (Feb 20, 2009)

Claudio is a stand up gentleman and has done a great job of bringing the company back from the M&S brink. He is a shrewd businessman and in my opinion, is setting up Brooks well for the future. For that, I salute him.

Of course, there are things I'd change. But that is something I can say for literally everything in current existence. 

The problem, in my opinion, lies in the union structure that bogs down the stores across the country. They are tied to commission and the like in so many ways that literally all they care about is getting the credit card swiped and nothing else. Terrible.


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## stant62 (Aug 6, 2008)

I think he meant that BB is as American as baseball and apple pie, but with an Italian CEO comes Italian stylistic influences.


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## Speas (Mar 11, 2004)

Guys, the PC Gestapo inquisition thing is a bit tired. Saying that a traditional American company should be run by Americans is not out of bounds.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Speas said:


> Guys, the PC Gestapo inquisition thing is a bit tired. Saying that a traditional American company should be run by Americans is not out of bounds.


Were there any complaints that BB was run by a British company for years? Remember-we fought the Revolution to free ourselves from the Brits.Seriously-who cares who owns the company-J. Press is traddier than BB, and is owned by the Japanese.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

Find a retailer who has a good, long-standing relationship with Southwick. He'll know how to measure and what to request when placing the order. It may be ironic that the modern-day Brooks--(with seemingly no interest in reviving the good ol' sack)--now owns Southwick, but that hasn't done any damage (so far as I can see) to the Southwick product. There are a variety of adjustments that one can request (and the tailors at Southwick will honor). It just takes some time, patience, and, perhaps above all else, knowledge. Last year I had a Southwick blazer made--a heavy hopsack.* The shoulder is perfect. 

*Let me know if you want the Southwick swatch #. Great cloth.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

rsmeyer said:


> Were there any complaints that BB was run by a British company for years? Remember-we fought the Revolution to free ourselves from the Brits.Seriously-who cares who owns the company-J. Press is traddier than BB, and is owned by the Japanese.


There were complaints, yes. The general consensus seems to be that the British company -- Marks & Spencer -- did an even worse job than del Vecchio is doing.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Taliesin said:


> There were complaints, yes. The general consensus seems to be that the British company -- Marks & Spencer -- did an even worse job than del Vecchio is doing.


There were no complaints, to my knowledge, that the store was foreign-owned; only that the quality had gone down.I do agree that Del Vecchio is doing a much better job than MandS.


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

rsmeyer said:


> Seriously-who cares who owns the company-J. Press is traddier than BB, and is owned by the Japanese.


Stop using common sense!


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## WilliamMMLeftfoot (Jun 14, 2009)

stant62 said:


> I think he meant that BB is as American as baseball and apple pie, but with an Italian CEO comes Italian stylistic influences.


Yes, Thank you.

Also, I think there is a wider margin of difference between Italian Dress and American Dress vis a vis Japanese Dress and American Dress.

One glance over the website and you are sure to see Italian influence.

And furthermore, it is absolutely nothing like saying a black person can't run this country because he is black.

Also, If you care to read the title of this thread it's called "Brooks Brothers - Not the Same Store." So I stand behind my original conclusion that an Italian born and bread CEO can not return to it.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

WilliamMMLeftfoot said:


> Also, I think there is a wider margin of difference between Italian Dress and American Dress vis a vis Japanese Dress and American Dress.


I think this is right. Furthermore, traditional British clothing is closer to classic Brooks Brothers than is Italian style -- Brooks always had an Anglo-American vibe -- such that it's not hard to see how M&S ownership didn't seem like a terrible idea, even though it turned out really badly.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Bottom line, Brooks is now a mass-market fashion company, run and staffed by the same people who run and staff all the other mass-market fashion companies. Their ethnicity or national origin is irrelevant. It's a way of doing business, it's international and it stinks. The salesperson or tailor who helps you this month may have been working at J. Jill last month. If you find a salesperson who knows what they're talking about, or a tailor who actually possess knowledge and skill, count your blessings.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Doctor Damage said:


> Stop using common sense!


I just can't stop!!:icon_smile:


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

Flanderian said:


> If you find a salesperson who knows what they're talking about, or a tailor who actually possess knowledge and skill, count your blessings.


I found one. C.Q. (his initials) in San Antonio He helped me a couple of days ago. He said he "grew up" at the BB Madison Ave where his father took him and men sat around smoking cigars in the store. He said he has never worn any suit other than BB.

I hold him I was considering switching from Hickey Freeman and the first thing he did was praise HF! He never said a bad word about it. Then he told me how his Golden Fleece line line compared and he still complimented HF. I bought a sport coat from him. Nice guy.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

dks202 said:


> and men sat around smoking cigars in the store.


Are you certain you weren't talking with someone from Nat Sherman? :icon_smile_big:

When was this? How old is this man? I'm in my 7th decade and have been a patron of the Madison Ave. store for 50+ years. Anyone sitting around (Or standing around for that matter.) smoking cigars would have been asked to leave.

And he's from where? Ah, Texas!


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I won't even remove my 10 foot pole from its case on the ethnicity of management, but in general: It's hard to find good help these days. 

It's difficult to find a competent practitioner in any branch of the service industry who's younger than a baby boomer. There's such a high tolerance for mediocrity that no one really suffers for their incompetence. 

Even at the flagship store on Madison Avenue you can find a mix of fabulous knowledgeable sales people and those just counting the minutes until the next time they can walk around the block to get another Dunkin' Donuts coffee coolatta.

The only thing any of us can do is vote with our wallets and cling to good help where we find it!


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## flinch (Sep 8, 2008)

At one time Brooks had it's own factories for clothing, shirts and ties. Union trouble wrecked that; and they lost several stores to unions. Those losses were from a dictatorial management style. They survived the Clown look of the 70's and were able to keep the quality and image intac until the loss of factories, expansion into many markets (and countries) and the rapid growth of designer labels; which when established falsely presented themselves as quality. Brooks had no choice but to compete and to use the same poor quality equal to the designer brands they competed against. In short they lost their nitch and tried to be trendy.


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

WilliamMMLeftfoot said:


> The problem is management of course, How can an Italian run Brooks Brothers?


The same way a WASP can enjoy well-prepared pasta alla carbonara.

hbs


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## hbs midwest (Sep 19, 2007)

stant62 said:


> I think he meant that BB is as American as baseball and apple pie, but with an Italian CEO comes Italian stylistic influences.


Not necessarily.

hbs


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Colour _me_ confused here, but I don't see any Italian influence besides the Milano-fit trousers. All of it seems like the stereotypical "monied-American" look.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

There's a real easy solution to this: Don't shop at Brooks Brothers.

They are a business. As such, they exist to make money. I've had a couple of disappointments there--a bow tie that frayed before its time, socks that developed holes after five wearings--but they made it right. I doubt the local Wal-Mart would have done it. On the whole, I'm more satisfied than disappointed. The trousers I have look good and are holding up well. For my money, the OCBD shirt (must-iron, of course) remains a classic and, purchased on sale, a bargain, considering how long one lasts.

As for Italian stylistic influences, get over it. That's what sells. Folks who dress like folks on this forum, including myself, are the anachronism, not BB. I'm very upset about the demise of tri-cornered hats--what were those stupid hat shops thinking when they stopped selling them?

Which isn't to diminish the OP's experience. What happened to him is mind-blowing. But to criticize BB for getting too big is to criticize capitalism itself. It's OK to be nostalgic. It's not, I think, OK to say that only Americans should be allowed to run BB. That's, well, un-American.


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## fenway (May 2, 2006)

Harris said:


> Find a retailer who has a good, long-standing relationship with Southwick. He'll know how to measure and what to request when placing the order. It may be ironic that the modern-day Brooks--(with seemingly no interest in reviving the good ol' sack)--now owns Southwick, but that hasn't done any damage (so far as I can see) to the Southwick product. There are a variety of adjustments that one can request (and the tailors at Southwick will honor). It just takes some time, patience, and, perhaps above all else, knowledge. Last year I had a Southwick blazer made--a heavy hopsack.* The shoulder is perfect.
> 
> *Let me know if you want the Southwick swatch #. Great cloth.


Didn't Brooks buy Southwick?


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

fenway said:


> Didn't Brooks buy Southwick?


Didn't he just say that?


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

I remember my first experience was at the Boston store mid 80's pre Marks & Spencer. As far as corporate culture it was very much like Boyer described it in his essay https://www.ivy-style.com/boyer-on-brooks.html

I think what ever decade you come into the story things have changed.
You of course could see it in little things like the illustrations being replaced by models. They lost the paintings on the covers. You had to really start cherry picking items ect. I was thinking about Heavy Tweed Jackets observation that there was his Brooks Brooks Brothers and everyone else's. I think many of us can relate. It gets harder to maintain the illusion . My story does not involve damaged clothes but I had a weird experience with Brooks recently. I saw a tie silk insert wallet I wanted that was on sale. There was an extra discount if you used your credit card. I was unable to put my hands on my card so I called to order.
When she asked for the card, I told her the situation and she said she would run it through the credit dept for lookup. I get a call the next day saying they were unable to process and I needed to call the credit dept.
I call and they tell me that my store card was suspended for inactivity.
I thought that was strange and asked to have it reinstated they told me I had to apply for a new one so I did. The whole experience felt odd. There was a time, at least in my mind, when getting a Brooks Card was like getting made by the Mafia. Once you were a customer they did not let you go.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

flinch said:


> At one time Brooks had it's own factories for clothing, shirts and ties. Union trouble wrecked that; and they lost several stores to unions.


BB still owns its shirt factory (Garland, North Carolina) and its tie factory (Long Island City, New York), and just recently picked up a suit factory (Southwick). The only thing I know to be missing is its old custom workroom, but now they use Martin Greenfield of Brooklyn for that.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

hbs midwest said:


> The same way a WASP can enjoy well-prepared pasta alla carbonara.
> 
> hbs


Enjoy it, sure. But can he cook it?


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

32rollandrock said:


> It's OK to be nostalgic. It's not, I think, OK to say that only Americans should be allowed to run BB. That's, well, un-American.


I'm sure that no one here would mind if, say, a Japanese company ran BB the way J.Press is run -- like a museum. I think the aversion to Italian ownership has to do more with the strength of Italian style and its seeming tendency to muscle aside traditional American items like sack suits in the current BB playbook.


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## Taliesin (Sep 24, 2004)

Jovan said:


> Colour _me_ confused here, but I don't see any Italian influence besides the Milano-fit trousers. All of it seems like the stereotypical "monied-American" look.


Stronger shoulders. Side vents. "Made in Italy". Thin-soled, delicate shoes. Four-inch-wide ties that make gigantic knots.

Probably none of this is specifically Italian. It's not Brioni, of course. But these details are more typical of European clothing than they are of traditional American Ivy style.


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## Brooksfan (Jan 25, 2005)

Not to defend the current ownership, but were it not for Claudio del Vecchio buying Brooks in November 2001 for the bargain price of roughly $225MM it probably would now be owned by George Zimmer of Men's Wearhouse and G&K fame, so count your blessings. Marks & Spencer paid $750MM+ in 1987 or 1988 and ran it into the ground with "All American" management guru Joe Grommeck, who did his best to turn Brooks into a Banana Repulic clone. 

Times change and tastes change. I too am not happy that the "real" Brooks sack jacket isn't more widely available every season in a range of colors and patterns, but the few that are cut in this model seem to end up in clearance so ours must be a niche demand at best. 

Many of the items we long for are no longer available but look around next time you're out in public and see how the common denominator is either jeans or ill-fitting khakis. Even in business settings truly well-dressed men (and women) are rare. 

As I see it Brooks has improved greatly in the nearly eight years this group has owned it. Given the continuing poor retail environment, and diminished financial prospects most of us face, were I Mr. del Vecchio I might have decided (or still be contemplating) to cut my losses and get out. That he has purchased Southwick and fortified his relationships in the cashmere sweater market speaks volumes about the long-term strategy and intentions. 

This won't still the chant of the bashers, but after more than 40 years of very favorable customer service experiences I will remain a loyal customer until I find equal or better quality at anything approaching their prices.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

Two weird things happened in NY some time ago. Just as Brooks Brothers was remodeling its flagship store, Ralph Lauren was opening his store uptown on Madison, which seemed modeled on the old BB store. And this was more or less at the peak of the Armani years. So, if RL could and can make a buck recycling the old-money look of traditional BB, doesn't it make sense that the original could do the same?
The Italian style maligned here is by now unfashionable, not to mention that some of the higher end Italian houses are known for 3/2 rolls and soft shoulders, that the flat-front trouser has totally wiped out pleats in Italian style, and that Armani himself has been a keen observer of traditional, though not always trad, American style.
The English years were not good for BB. At a branch, in a very upscale local mall, the help were youth in ill-fitting clothes, not a button-down shirt in sight, who were totally clueless. Asking for Madras shorts, which had been put away for the season but are worn in South Florida year round for climate reasons, a young salesman went to the back and returned with a seersucker item -- it was obvious he had never heard of either.
The Italian years have been better. New staff at the same stores, and they've been schooled on the classics and on Brooks history, though I have yet to find one who knows Teddy Roosevelt charged up San Juan Hill in a uniform made by Brooks. And there appears to be an emphasis on the appearance if not the substance of tradition. Still, this summer -- an important season since we live in summer all year -- there was too much pastel, the kind that gets heartland tourists mugged in NYC summers. And, no, no sack jackets.
I agree that there's no point in decrying changes brought about by capitalism, unless you're willing to man the barricades because you have nothing to lose but your chains. So from a capitalist perspective, isn't all that is needed simply a good marketing campaign that brings out the appeal of the trad style BB once represented? I'm not sure this would be good either for members of this forum who enjoy standing out in this style or those who benefit from the general public's ignorance of that style when it comes to those almost nothing prices at the thrift shops. But I predict that sooner of later the Italian owners of BB will decide trad is where it's at from a profit perspective.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Taliesin said:


> Stronger shoulders. Side vents. "Made in Italy". Thin-soled, delicate shoes. Four-inch-wide ties that make gigantic knots.
> 
> Probably none of this is specifically Italian. It's not Brioni, of course. But these details are more typical of European clothing than they are of traditional American Ivy style.


I think your point is well made. Many of the aspects of style you name are now more characteristic of English fashion than Italian.


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## Harris (Jan 30, 2006)

I'd guess--and this is just a guess, mind you--that the vast majority of Brooks customers could and indeed would benefit from the soft tailoring--the relative shapelessness, even-- of the sack. No?


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

Harris said:


> I'd guess--and this is just a guess, mind you--that the vast majority of Brooks customers could and indeed would benefit from the soft tailoring--the relative shapelessness, even-- of the sack. No?


Yes, they would. And here you strike upon one of my favorite rants; most men do not know how to dress to look good, they chase fashion (I.e., advertising) and attempt to emulate it, even if they can't. They don't attempt to evolve a personal style that is most becoming to them as individuals. A truly great haberdasher will educate its customer, and over time, elevate their level of style and taste. But obviously the people who now run Brooks believe it is more profitable not to. I.e., the haberdasher must have other values in addition to making money, or at least be possessed of enlightened self-interest.


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## Zot! (Feb 18, 2008)

While most surveys indicate that the American population remains overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian in its religious beliefs, the takers of such surveys systematically overlook membership in what is probably the most deeply-rooted faith in all of American culture: It's just not as good as it used to be.


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## Mazama (May 21, 2009)

Zot! said:


> It's just not as good as it used to be.


And it never was...


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

I could have gotten a Southwick by going with the same fabric in the select program, but -oh no! I wanted full canvass and MTM, and in doing so got aworse suit. Maybe I will post some pictures and some more educated and disinterested parties can evaluate the fit and roll of the lapels.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Have you followed up with them yet?


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

I called to let them know it had been hard creased to a 3 button.
They said bring it back and we will repress it for you.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I think you should let them know that you've never had problems with their sacks before... until MTM. (That's pretty bad.)


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## dks202 (Jun 20, 2008)

efdll said:


> But I predict that sooner of later the Italian owners of BB will decide trad is where it's at from a profit perspective.


I am new to Brooks Brothers after many years of Hickey Freeman. I bought my first sport coat last week and I am waiting for the alterations.

I really don't know what to make of this thread. I have had nothing but positive experiences at the BB store here. The staff is older and experienced. They had so much praise for HF that it seemed for a moment they thought I was nuts for switching to BB.

I posed a new thread to switch from HF to BB and got only a few mixed responses.

Even more confused now...... Was their praise for HF a subtle hint of the current BB quality?


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

dks202 said:


> I am new to Brooks Brothers after many years of Hickey Freeman. I bought my first sport coat last week and I am waiting for the alterations.
> 
> I really don't know what to make of this thread. I have had nothing but positive experiences at the BB store here. The staff is older and experienced. They had so much praise for HF that it seemed for a moment they thought I was nuts for switching to BB.
> 
> ...


Brooks Brothers has gone from being a single, highly influential purveyor to a mass marketing empire, serving a wide range of customers from their Golden Fleece and MTM customers (even setting aside the whole "Black Fleece" marketing ploy for a moment) to making lower end suits for sale at their factory stores. Where once you had to travel to 346 Madison Avenue to shop Brooks, now all you need to do is drop in on a layover in any decent size airport or visit an outlet mall.

I think this explains the very disparate opinions of them here. If you could handpick the associates and items Brooks carries, you could still assemble a first class operation - the problem is that its surrounded by subpar people and items as well.

I still go to Brooks Brothers. I only deal with the people who have been at the store long enough to know their business, and arm myself with the knowledge I glean at this forum and other sources. You can't, however, expect to walk into any BB store and assume you'll get first rate goods and services though - that's the difference between then and now, I think.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Reds & Tops said:


> Claudio is a stand up gentleman and has done a great job of bringing the company back from the M&S brink. He is a shrewd businessman and in my opinion, is setting up Brooks well for the future. For that, I salute him.
> 
> Of course, there are things I'd change. But that is something I can say for literally everything in current existence.
> 
> The problem, in my opinion, lies in the union structure that bogs down the stores across the country. They are tied to commission and the like in so many ways that literally all they care about is getting the credit card swiped and nothing else. Terrible.


Worked on commission in the 80's, but the difference was that the salesmen knew their stuff (e.g., make of the goods and how the clothing should fit). Had no problem finding salesmen back then who were very helpful. I'm not sure whether the clueless salemen are a result of younger workers who don't know anything about clothing (and a lack of training), or whether they cut pay and as a result get inferior workers. In either case, why isn't BB training its workers and making sure they know what they are talking about?!


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## Nerev (Apr 25, 2009)

DCLawyer68 said:


> I think this explains the very disparate opinions of them here. If you could handpick the associates and items Brooks carries, you could still assemble a first class operation - the problem is that its surrounded by subpar people and items as well.
> 
> I still go to Brooks Brothers. I only deal with the people who have been at the store long enough to know their business, and arm myself with the knowledge I glean at this forum and other sources. You can't, however, expect to walk into any BB store and assume you'll get first rate goods and services though - that's the difference between then and now, I think.


^^ This. The Beverly Hills store (west coast flagship?) is very nice, but the associates there aren't very knowledgable. I go to the much smaller Los Angeles store, and I feel the associates there know much more. Even so, their knowledge is small compared to what you could learn here on these forums. The best thing to do is to arm yourself with knowledge, and if you feel the sales associate has some knowledge, you should ask for their thoughts too. If not, they can at least retrieve clothing in the stock room for you.

While I would have loved to have seen BB 30-50 years ago when it was a temple sanctuary, our current world have a very hard time support such a big company. Reguardless though, is it still a good place to get suits? Yes.


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## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

Taliesin said:


> BB still owns its shirt factory (Garland, North Carolina) and its tie factory (Long Island City, New York), and just recently picked up a suit factory (Southwick). The only thing I know to be missing is its old custom workroom, but now they use Martin Greenfield of Brooklyn for that.


and they still make their own ties.


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## Flanderian (Apr 30, 2008)

dks202 said:


> I am new to Brooks Brothers after many years of Hickey Freeman. I bought my first sport coat last week and I am waiting for the alterations.
> 
> I really don't know what to make of this thread. I have had nothing but positive experiences at the BB store here. The staff is older and experienced. They had so much praise for HF that it seemed for a moment they thought I was nuts for switching to BB.
> 
> ...


Despite Brooks' problems and short comings compared to many things they may have done differently, and sometimes better, in the past, very little that they sell is junk. Most of my issues lie with their choice of what to sell, the loss of style, not with quality. Even in the past, the alterations to your garment were highly dependent on the individual salesman and tailor who happened to serve you. That most of the fellows in your store are older bodes well. They may well be experienced in the profession, even if it hasn't all been with Brooks. (And despite their not having sat around the Madison Ave. store with cigars! :icon_smile_big

I think you have every reason to expect that you will be well pleased when you receive your odd jacket, despite the OP's unfortunate experience.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Brooksfan said:


> Brooks has improved greatly in the nearly eight years this group has owned it. Given the continuing poor retail environment, and diminished financial prospects most of us face, were I Mr. del Vecchio I might have decided (or still be contemplating) to cut my losses and get out. That he has purchased Southwick and fortified his relationships in the cashmere sweater market speaks volumes about the long-term strategy and intentions.


My experiences with Brooks go back about 25 years, and I would agree with your evaluation of del Vecchio's management and join you in finding the Southwick acquisition a very good sign that he cares about maintaining the quality of BB's offerings.

WRT to the tie factory in Long Island City, BTW, even the "346" ties in the outlets are made there. BB must cut costs on materials (a less expensive grade of wool in the linings, etc.) and probably process as well, but still, it's not like they're just importing them from China (pretty much the default option in apparel retailing these days, it seems).

And even with the offshore-made goods, I'm impressed by BB's quality control. I have a handful of 346 sportcoats made in Israel and one made in Jordan (no doubt in one of the Q.I.Z.'s that Jordan operates together w/ Israeli partners) and find the make, fit, and detailing of these garments to be quite good. The oldest of these jackets has logged more than a decade in my wardrobe (I bought it new) and is still going strong.


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

Martin Greenfield is supposed to be great, but apparently can't make a sack suit. Should I send him pictures?


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2005)

+1

only additional rejoinder is that RL charges a lot more for their take on Ivy League...



efdll said:


> Two weird things happened in NY some time ago. Just as Brooks Brothers was remodeling its flagship store, Ralph Lauren was opening his store uptown on Madison, which seemed modeled on the old BB store. And this was more or less at the peak of the Armani years. So, if RL could and can make a buck recycling the old-money look of traditional BB, doesn't it make sense that the original could do the same?
> The Italian style maligned here is by now unfashionable, not to mention that some of the higher end Italian houses are known for 3/2 rolls and soft shoulders, that the flat-front trouser has totally wiped out pleats in Italian style, and that Armani himself has been a keen observer of traditional, though not always trad, American style.
> The English years were not good for BB. At a branch, in a very upscale local mall, the help were youth in ill-fitting clothes, not a button-down shirt in sight, who were totally clueless. Asking for Madras shorts, which had been put away for the season but are worn in South Florida year round for climate reasons, a young salesman went to the back and returned with a seersucker item -- it was obvious he had never heard of either.
> The Italian years have been better. New staff at the same stores, and they've been schooled on the classics and on Brooks history, though I have yet to find one who knows Teddy Roosevelt charged up San Juan Hill in a uniform made by Brooks. And there appears to be an emphasis on the appearance if not the substance of tradition. Still, this summer -- an important season since we live in summer all year -- there was too much pastel, the kind that gets heartland tourists mugged in NYC summers. And, no, no sack jackets.
> I agree that there's no point in decrying changes brought about by capitalism, unless you're willing to man the barricades because you have nothing to lose but your chains. So from a capitalist perspective, isn't all that is needed simply a good marketing campaign that brings out the appeal of the trad style BB once represented? I'm not sure this would be good either for members of this forum who enjoy standing out in this style or those who benefit from the general public's ignorance of that style when it comes to those almost nothing prices at the thrift shops. But I predict that sooner of later the Italian owners of BB will decide trad is where it's at from a profit perspective.


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## srivats (Jul 29, 2008)

BB is definitely not what it used to be a few years back ... however, at the end of the day, you can still get good items at decent prices (esp if you buy during the two big sales). I haven't found a button down oxford shirt better than BB's at the price. The customer service is still top notch atleast in my experience - everytime I have called them I ended up actually appreciating their CS. Lands End tries hard, but falls short - but their shirts are are good value too.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

gtsecc said:


> Martin Greenfield is supposed to be great, but apparently can't make a sack suit. Should I send him pictures?


Why not Winston Tailors? From what I've read, he makes a sack suit as good or better as the rest of them.


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

Jovan said:


> Why not Winston Tailors? From what I've read, he makes a sack suit as good or better as the rest of them.


I might just to get his commentary.
However, he did not make it, so I doubt he will be personally horrified and want to remake it. As far as I know, MG did make it.


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## 1WB (Sep 25, 2008)

*BB GF sack suit*



gtsecc said:


> Martin Greenfield is supposed to be great, but apparently can't make a sack suit. Should I send him pictures?


I own an OTR GF 3/2 sack from Fall 2007, and I would agree with anyone who says that Greenfield doesn't really do a proper sack suit. e.g., shape is not quite right despite some work by my own tailor, and the underside of the stitching for the third (rolled under) button goes right through the lapel and is visible. If a sack is what you want, I would go elsewhere.

I think the standard 2B GF suits are a fantastic value when on sale for $800 or less, however.


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## rsmeyer (May 14, 2006)

Jovan said:


> Why not Winston Tailors? From what I've read, he makes a sack suit as good or better as the rest of them.


He does, and VERY reasonable, too.


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## kilgore65 (May 13, 2009)

flinch said:


> At one time Brooks had it's own factories for clothing, shirts and ties. Union trouble wrecked that; and they lost several stores to unions.


What exactly are you talking about? Defend your statement with some specifics. Unions are responsible for the stable middle class lifestyle that led this country into such prosperity in the decades after World War II - stability that has now all but disappeared.


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## Tonyp (May 8, 2007)

I look at the fall and/or rise of BB to that of Mercedes Benz or BMW. Early on they were know to be in a high end class and made great products but as times changed and the cost of goods became more expensive they had to look elsewhere for production as well as customers. Now they offer a broader selection to allow just about anyone in the market a chance. Does this make the quality lower? maybe to some but overall, if you want higher end product, then stick to the top of the line and you will have a very good product. Is it as good as it was in years past? If you were around then, then probably not but it is still a good product.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

gtsecc said:


> I might just to get his commentary.
> However, he did not make it, so I doubt he will be personally horrified and want to remake it. As far as I know, MG did make it.


Ohhhh I see what you were saying now.

What I was suggesting is trying them if you ever get the money again.


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## Serenus (Jun 19, 2009)

I had MANY good experiences with knowledgeable staff in the Philadelphia store (Walnut Street). A few people there seem to really know their stuff. As somewhat of a beginner, I don't have much to compare them to but the quality seems good and when things are on sale they're a reasonable price.

I still don't quite understand why they have ventured into things like sneakers.

Haven't been to the Denver store yet, but I fear it may not hold up to expectations...


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## Orgetorix (May 20, 2005)

32rollandrock said:


> There's a real easy solution to this: Don't shop at Brooks Brothers.
> 
> They are a business. As such, they exist to make money. I've had a couple of disappointments there--a bow tie that frayed before its time, socks that developed holes after five wearings--but they made it right. I doubt the local Wal-Mart would have done it. On the whole, I'm more satisfied than disappointed. The trousers I have look good and are holding up well. For my money, the OCBD shirt (must-iron, of course) remains a classic and, purchased on sale, a bargain, considering how long one lasts.
> 
> ...


This is the best sense that's been spoken in this thread yet.

Brooks Brothers is a business. It's a multi-million-dollar global retailer. And like all such companies, the name of the game is growth. More stores, more sales, more profits. For a company of BB's size, the J. Press business approach of having a few stores and operating them at a more or less consistent profit level from year to year would be a failure.

The simple fact of the matter is that virtually nobody wears OCBDs or sack suits anymore. Like it or not, they've gone out of style, and they're going to stay that way as far as the majority of men are concerned. Brooks simply _can't_ be the retailer it used to be; it couldn't stay in business if it did. Stocking stores full of authentic Ivy-league clothing wouldn't reintroduce a new generation to sacks; it would mean that the new generation would never darken the doors.

Claudio del Vecchio has done more than anyone else to revive interest in Brooks' heritage, and you can see that from the improvement in quality and style that have happened since he bought the company. I'm glad he has done what he has done, but I realize it's simply a fantasy to expect _anyone_--Italian, American, or Martian--to restore Brooks to "what it once was." And, consequently, I can't fault the company for not doing the impossible.


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## The Reverend (Aug 17, 2009)

Sorry about the poor experience at Brooks Brothers...I have only positive experiences starting from the Los Angeles and just recently at the Plano, TX stores. 

I have sentimental leanings toward the store since my father brought me to BB to purchase my first suit when I just graduated from high school. As my user name suggests, I am an ordained minister and have followed in my father's footsteps, so purchasing a BB suit was quite an extravagant purchase, but quality was always more important. 20 years later, I still have the suit albeit a little tattered and worse for wear.

Just recently, my son turned four. On his wish list was a Star Wars (Clone Wars) Republic Gunship, and a charcoal grey 2 button suit like dad's first suit. Even with the recent problems from the English to Italian owners, I'll probably venture in to BB and get that suit just to pass on the tradition.


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## Anon 18th Cent. (Oct 27, 2008)

Sure the world has changed, and Brooks ain't what it used to be. But somethings are still just fine:

OCBD and special order shirts (made in the USA)
sized English socks
Alden shell cordovan shoes
cashmere sweaters made in Scotland
Sea Island cotton underwear made in Germany
made to measure suits

What's different is that in the old days, everything was top notch.


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## The Reverend (Aug 17, 2009)

edwin, i'll be moving to the Los Angeles area next month. Is there a tailor you would recommend? I'll be in the San Gabriel Valley, specifically Pasadena. Thanks in advance.


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## jlmwrite (Dec 27, 2005)

I still get excited every time I get the new BB catalog in the email or when I get to the store on the rare occasions we get to the mall.

But...

It's just not the same at BB anymore. I want a salesclerk who actually knows traditional men's clothes, not just the current offerings of their current employer or what most of the guys in the mall are wearing. One of the young-ish female salesclerks actually told me that the non-iron shirt were "really much better" than the traditional shirts. 

I also think most of the styles are trendy rather than traditional. I'm not my grandfather, but I want a sack suit that looks like a sack suit and I want my khakis to fit without bagging or without hugging me like my Levi's. My regular dress shirts are must-iron button downs, and my polos are all-cotton 2-buttons with tennis tails. All my dress shoes are close-soled, quality leather with leather soles and heels, in traditional designs. My casual shoes are either hard leather loafers in some traditional design, or Top-Siders and camp mocs.

I feel overall that BB quality is better than that of most of the goods found in the department stores, but the huge wall of non-iron shirts depresses me. 
The retail (ie, non-sale) prices these days don't seem to reflect the quality either; I'd just as soon buy a lot of things from Land's End! (And LE needs to stop the non-iron idiocy as well...)

With all that said, many of my ties still come from BB, as do all of my boxers. I do find the odd shirt or pair of pants as well, but they don't get nearly as many of my dollars as they once did.


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## THORVALD (Jan 30, 2007)

*it starts HERE*



smr said:


> Worked on commission in the 80's, but the difference was that the salesmen knew their stuff (e.g., make of the goods and how the clothing should fit). Had no problem finding salesmen back then who were very helpful. I'm not sure whether the clueless salemen are a result of younger workers who don't know anything about clothing (and a lack of training), or whether they cut pay and as a result get inferior workers. In either case, why isn't BB training its workers and making sure they know what they are talking about?!


Sales staff THEN :icon_smile: vs. sales staff NOW


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## phillyesq (Dec 9, 2008)

Serenus said:


> I had MANY good experiences with knowledgeable staff in the Philadelphia store (Walnut Street). A few people there seem to really know their stuff. As somewhat of a beginner, I don't have much to compare them to but the quality seems good and when things are on sale they're a reasonable price.
> 
> I still don't quite understand why they have ventured into things like sneakers.
> 
> Haven't been to the Denver store yet, but I fear it may not hold up to expectations...


The store on Walnut Street is very hit or miss. Some of the associates are great, as is the manager, but some of them are just awful.

I stopped by their outlet store at Philadelphia premium outlets yesterday, and I was dismayed that nobody at the store even knew what a sack suit was. The trip wasn't a total loss, and at least I was able to find a few nice BB makers and country club polos on clearance.


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## Miket61 (Mar 1, 2008)

phillyesq said:


> The store on Walnut Street is very hit or miss. Some of the associates are great, as is the manager, but some of them are just awful.
> 
> I stopped by their outlet store at Philadelphia premium outlets yesterday, and I was dismayed that nobody at the store even knew what a sack suit was. I was able to find a few nice BB makers and country club polos on clearance.


Many years ago I bought three pair of chinos at the downtown Atlanta store and they wouldn't be ready until I was already in the middle of a week-long trip to Philadelphia. They shipped them up there and I went to the Walnut Street store to pick them up.

They took nearly an hour trying to get someone on the phone in Atlanta to confirm that the pants were paid for. Never mind that they had been altered and shipped by the store. Once this was done, they gave them to me. Without checking my identification. As long as _they_ weren't out anything, it was OK by them.


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## godawgs (Aug 20, 2009)

anyone been to Miller Brothers in Atlanta? got a gew MTM suits from them...fit was great and had fun doing it...they have a full bar - pretty cool.


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## Taken Aback (Aug 3, 2009)

rsmeyer said:


> BB is radically different than the store I knew starting in the early 60's. They had, among other departments, an excellent custom shop for suits and shirts.The nadir was under Marks and Spencer, and it's somewhat better now, but when they expanded so radically, the quailty of their merchandise and the knowledgeability of their staff is radically inferior. The staff at J. Press is infinitely superior.I get my MTM stuff from Winston Tailors in N.Y.C.





Reds & Tops said:


> The problem, in my opinion, lies in the union structure that bogs down the stores across the country. They are tied to commission and the like in so many ways that literally all they care about is getting the credit card swiped and nothing else. Terrible.





Flanderian said:


> Bottom line, Brooks is now a mass-market fashion company, run and staffed by the same people who run and staff all the other mass-market fashion companies. Their ethnicity or national origin is irrelevant. It's a way of doing business, it's international and it stinks. The salesperson or tailor who helps you this month may have been working at J. Jill last month. If you find a salesperson who knows what they're talking about, or a tailor who actually possess knowledge and skill, count your blessings.





Trip English said:


> I won't even remove my 10 foot pole from its case on the ethnicity of management, but in general: It's hard to find good help these days.
> 
> It's difficult to find a competent practitioner in any branch of the service industry who's younger than a baby boomer. There's such a high tolerance for mediocrity that no one really suffers for their incompetence.
> 
> ...





smr said:


> Worked on commission in the 80's, but the difference was that the salesmen knew their stuff (e.g., make of the goods and how the clothing should fit). Had no problem finding salesmen back then who were very helpful. I'm not sure whether the clueless salemen are a result of younger workers who don't know anything about clothing (and a lack of training), or whether they cut pay and as a result get inferior workers. In either case, why isn't BB training its workers and making sure they know what they are talking about?!


At a recent visit to the flagship store, I met several friendly salespeople, but I wouldn't call them knowledgeable, and they did seem commission minded. Not that I expect salespeople to be on salary without acknowledgment of sales made, but working on commission _can_ breed falseness and placating attitudes. In all, it didn't seem as it did tagging along on a past parental shopping experience there, or a recent experience at JPress (which I assume is also a commission structure, but seemed more sincere).

Apparently, it would seem I really don't know what I've missed.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

Flanderian said:


> Bottom line, Brooks is now a mass-market fashion company, run and staffed by the same people who run and staff all the other mass-market fashion companies. Their ethnicity or national origin is irrelevant. It's a way of doing business, it's international and it stinks. The salesperson or tailor who helps you this month may have been working at J. Jill last month. If you find a salesperson who knows what they're talking about, or a tailor who actually possess knowledge and skill, count your blessings.


Well said. Working in the industry (a successful menswear boutique) it is interesting to see how little so many larger chains seem to care about customer service. Where I work, we are salesman. We are trained, every day, on product knowledge, sales technique, etc. We are expected to know what we are doing. I work as a 100% commission salesman on an open floor with 10 other salesman every single day. And every customer (as nearly as we can ensure) is treated like gold from the minute they walk in the door, literally waited on until they leave the store. My ability to feed my family, and feed them well, depends on how well I can treat my customer.

Conversely, when I shop at Nordstrom (a large chain supposedly renowned for their customer service) I can't get help. I'm surrounded by salesman with money in my pocket and I have to ask for help. It really bothers me. A lot of big american stores are losing business and struggling to sell product at anything other than a discount because they act like thrift stores. The employees DON'T CARE!


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## pkprd869 (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm in my 20's, so I am not familiar with the BB of old. But from the history they have on the BB website, it sounds like they had at one time a very high quality MTM program and now I see alot of mixed reviews. And with their foray into wrinkle resistant everything (pajamas even, please) one saleswoman mentioned that many customers were unhappy that alot of nice patterns and colors for the OCBD's and other shirts were only available in non-iron. I'm with that group. 

I have to go to the BB in Oakbrook (west suburb of Chicago) and the staff there is knowledgeable and friendly. I asked one salesmen if our AAAC discount applied to their MTM and he said yes, but it's not worth it. He offered his opinion that the current MTM program is hit or miss and I should stick with OTR and get it altered. I can't recall now if he mentioned if any of their lines of suits were half or fully canvased.


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

Surprising honesty there, but it shows he really DOES care about his customers. Hold on to him while you can.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

pkprd869 said:


> I can't recall now if he mentioned if any of their lines of suits were half or fully canvased.


In case you don't know, all the Golden Fleece suits and jackets are fully canvased, and high quality. Martin Greenfield produces them for Brooks Brothers. The 1818 line is half canvased, and offers some good value for the money (especially on sale). The 1818 line is produced by Southwick.


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## gtsecc (Mar 25, 2008)

joenobody0 said:


> In case you don't know, all the Golden Fleece suits and jackets are fully canvased, and high quality. Martin Greenfield produces them for Brooks Brothers. The 1818 line is half canvased, and offers some good value for the money (especially on sale). The 1818 line is produced by Southwick.


Martin also does the MTM and it is poor quality.


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## joenobody0 (Jun 30, 2009)

gtsecc said:


> Martin also does the MTM and it is poor quality.


I'm not disagreeing with you, so please don't take it that way. Why would you say that? The Golden Fleece suits I've seen haven't appeared to be poor quality; overpriced at full retail, but they seem to be good quality for the $750 or so they cost when on super-sale. Is your experience different? How would you compare GF to something like Samuelsohn?


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## tda003 (Aug 16, 2009)

Just some information, please. It's been a long while since I purchased from BB. I think when they were sold the 1st time. I still have a grey pinstripe from that time. As I recall, there were 3 distinct lines then:Makers, the top end, traditional sack; "346", not quite as grand and a entry level (unknown, but, I think, "Brooksgate" for the young man (preppy, college, starting out, etc.) with a slimmer fit, if memory serves.

All offered high quality for the money, a classic look with little to no acknowledgment to current fashion. Idon't think lapels or tie widths varied by a 1/2" throughout it's history. The store in downtown Atlanta closed. The one at Lenox Square in Buckhead underwent a lot of changes and finally the company was bought out. Somewhere along the line, most of the Atlanta finer men's stores went out of business (Parks Chambers, Muses) and I went to H. Stockton who was recommended to me by William Thourlby ("You Are What You Wear: the Key to Business Success", 1978). I still shop there, although Ham has retired and his son, Court now runs the store, since moved to midtown. (I highly recommend the store, incidentally, w/ knowledgeable staff and impeccable tailoring.)

Just where is BB now?


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## DCLawyer68 (Jun 1, 2009)

tda003 said:


> Just some information, please. It's been a long while since I purchased from BB. I think when they were sold the 1st time. I still have a grey pinstripe from that time. As I recall, there were 3 distinct lines then:Makers, the top end, traditional sack; "346", not quite as grand and a entry level (unknown, but, I think, "Brooksgate" for the young man (preppy, college, starting out, etc.) with a slimmer fit, if memory serves.
> 
> All offered high quality for the money, a classic look with little to no acknowledgment to current fashion. Idon't think lapels or tie widths varied by a 1/2" throughout it's history. The store in downtown Atlanta closed. The one at Lenox Square in Buckhead underwent a lot of changes and finally the company was bought out. Somewhere along the line, most of the Atlanta finer men's stores went out of business (Parks Chambers, Muses) and I went to H. Stockton who was recommended to me by William Thourlby ("You Are What You Wear: the Key to Business Success", 1978). I still shop there, although Ham has retired and his son, Court now runs the store, since moved to midtown. (I highly recommend the store, incidentally, w/ knowledgeable staff and impeccable tailoring.)
> 
> Just where is BB now?


Brooks has probably changed hands a couple of times since you were a customer. Marks and Spencer owned them. Now they're owned by Retail Brand Alliance. Under M&S, they underwent some radical transformations. The current CEO, Claude Del Vecchio, has tried to bring back more of the traditional approach. Golden Fleece is their top RTW suit, 1818 is their regular RTW and Brooksease is the more introductory brand.

Perhaps the biggest difference is Brooks' footprint. They're all over now. Try to walk through any large airport without walking by one. As a result of this expansion, service has suffered so that there's no guarantee you'll get someone who really knows their stuff.

In my view, Brooks is a valuable place. They carry large quantities of nice basics and occassionally innovate positively. They also make the occasional error that comes with trying to innovate, and I can live with that.

I definitely give more of my business to J. Press, but Brooks Brothers remains an invaluable asset given their size and scope. Just don't assume you'll get a really knowledgeable sales person (you MAY - just don't assume you will).


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## cglex (Oct 23, 2006)

Brooks Brothers for many, many years, has had a nationwide presence with lots of stores. Said differently, they have been a mass merchant for many years. Service has always been spotty, and the price/value relationship not good unless on a deep discount sale. The only real difference between Brooks now and say 35 years ago, is they have much less independent and regional competition, and for what ever reason, they sell at a deep discount more often.


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