# Audiophiles please help!



## DressPRMex (Jun 20, 2005)

So the wife and I hosted a little party some weeks ago, and music started getting louder, and louder, and LOUDER... until my eighteen-year-old speakers went Kaboom!

Now the time has come to upgrade my system with new, better loudspeakers, which in time will be followed by a new amp and a cd player.

I am looking to invest around $3K on the set of speakers (for music only. No home theater stuff) and have started looking around. Please note that in Mexico City there is a somewhat limited offer which includes the following brands:

B&W
KEF
Kliptch
Monitor Audio
Paradigm
PSB
Margules
Infinity
jamo
JBL
Bose
Martin Logan (electrostatic)

Of course I understand that the ultimate test is to listen to them and see which ones I like better. Nevertheless, I would like to know what you think about these brands, and why one may be better than others. Should I buy my speakers here or should I go to the States and look for a better option in that price range? Any comments will be of great help.

Also, please note that in a few months, I may be shopping for a new amp as well (from $ 3 to 4K USD). In Mexico we have:

Aragon
Margules / Magenta
Krell
McIntosh
Rotel
NAD
... And others, which I don't recall at the moment.

Thanks again!


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## hopkins_student (Jun 25, 2004)

I have some B&Ws (priced below what you've budgeted) with which I could not be more happy. I'd go take a listen to the B&Ws that fall into your range.


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## acidicboy (Feb 17, 2006)

with some limited knowledge i have of speakers, and hanging out at my friend's home theater store back then, here are my opinion on the brands you mentioned:

B&W - you could never go wrong with this brand. good sound/value
KEF - its reference series is good, the rest are rebranded cones from asia
Kliptch - good sound, kinda expensive 
Monitor Audio - pass
Paradigm - pass
PSB - i have these. canadian brand, very good sound and very very good price
Margules - not familiar
Infinity - hyped 
jamo - pass
JBL - only certain models are good, the rest are made in china stuff
Bose - definitely pass
Martin Logan (electrostatic) - decent sound.


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## Mahler (Aug 5, 2005)

*B&W*

I second the B&W recommendation, but it'd be helpful to know the following:

- amp and cd with which they will be working
- size of the room
- music genres you listen to

In any case, you want to look into the 600 and 700 series. Hard to go wrong with them.


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## DaveInPhilly (May 16, 2005)

Of those listed I like B&W the best. Paradigm are also pretty good, but I wouldn't consider them really to be in the same league.

I would suggest looking into two other manufacturers: and HSU. Both have gained a tremendous amount of respect in the AV community over the past few years. They are not cheap by any means, but since they are only sold directly via the internet and telephone orders they are less expensive then others in the same category. They each have excellent return policies so that you can try them in your home to make certain they are to your tastes and standards.

Might I also suggest a trip over to the speaker forum over at the AVS forums. There is a wealth of information to be had from stuff costing $5 to $500,000.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

I would go for the MacIntosh amp (I am sure no one is surprised I'd say that!). The reason though is that they are built to last and if your speakers held out for 18 years, you are no doubt a person that buys for durability. Mac amps have proven they are bullet proof time and time again.

I'll pass recommending speakers as I have not kept up, I am still running some Bob Carver mylar strip speakers with subs from the 1980s. Have yet to find anything that will rival the crispness of the mylar strip.


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## MarkY (Mar 24, 2005)

I have a pair of Klipsch that I really like. However, you can't go wrong with B&W either. Stay far away from Bose. They're way overrated and way over priced.


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## kali77 (Apr 8, 2006)

Visit https://www.audiogon.com/ which I find better than AVS forums. It is more dedicated to music setups and not home theatre which AVS tends to cater to. You can also find some incredible deals in the sale section. I picked up some sweet Tyler Acoustics from a member there. Enjoy, I always find setting up a new system to be one of the most enjoyable parts!!

Gene


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## kali77 (Apr 8, 2006)

I think you would be extremely pleased with something like this 

They use some excellent speakers the Seas Excel drivers as well as the Seas millenium tweeters.
Here is a link to there website incredible company to do business with!!


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## kali77 (Apr 8, 2006)

These Merlin's are sick as well I believe they use the Scanspeak revelator drivers(not sure though).

Also here is a link to the Audiogon forum section https://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl A wealth of knowledge here!


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## kali77 (Apr 8, 2006)

As far as amps go are you into Tube amps? If so I would look into Cary, Conrad Johnson, Rogue, or Pathos. There are a ton more. For a lower end tybe system you could look at Sophia, Jolida, Onix, etc....

For solidstate amps I also look at Cary, Conrad Johnson Krell, Bel Canto,Theda, Portal Panache. On the lower end Rotel, PS Audio, etc....

CD player would depend on if you were going with a tube amp or solidstate.

Hope this helps.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

You should really consider Magneplanar (they can be shipped from U.S.) at $3K. The 1.6QRs are what I have and I use them to evaluate "live to 2 track" recordings I do. I work for an audiophile record label on a part-time basis. 

By spending $2K on these speakers you free up $1K for better electronics like the CD player and amp/preamp.

I strongly suggest you invest in tube gear. I find it is more accurate than transistors and there are many affordable options in your price range. Particularly if you listen to acoustic, jazz or classical this is the way to go based on my 20 years in the business. Some good brands are Audio Research (what I use), Conrad-Johnson, Prima Luna, McIntosh (but too expensive for what they are imho), Rogue Audio and select Cary.

Also, do invest in some quality speaker cable like Kimber or Cardas. Monster is not good quality sonic wise.

For CD players, I suggest looking at Rotel and maybe considering a Super Audio player from Sony, Krell, etc. if you like classical or bebop jazz. The SACD format has tremendous improvements in sound quality.

The magazines The Absolute Sound and Stereophile are good research if you are analytical like me.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

One more piece of advice...you are generally much better off choosing an established high end brand that has been in business 10-15 years plus. The customer service is generally better and financially they tend to be more stable, which can be a real problem in this hobby.

Also, be very, very careful on Audiogon...several of my friends have lost large coin from fake sellers. Two friends lost $2K each on a fake CD player posting.


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## Concordia (Sep 30, 2004)

It's been at least 10 years since I've dived into this seriously. But McIntosh always made bulletproof gear that sounded at least good. The equivalent of Oxxford suits, perhaps.

Rotel was doing a lot of really excellent value gear and is perhaps still worth a look. Depends on what you have up- and downstream, however.

Never liked the sound of Krell, although it did at the time get really big American speakers to move air.

Are there any British audio dealers in your area? Linn, NAIM, Rega, and that crew make very satisfying gear in the mid price range.


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## mano (Mar 17, 2003)

Of the brands you listed, B&W are the best of the lot. Before I lost my hearing I had a number of excellent speakers, the best of which were Thiel 2 2 at around your price range. I also had a number of amplifiers and paired the Thiels with an Aragon power amp and a Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 Tube Hybrid Preamp.

Do yourself a favor. Read a few audiophile magazines such as Stereophile and The Absolute Sound and then listen to the speakers themselves. Many of the brands you mentioned are not cup of tea, but you may love them. Also consider getting used gear in excellent condition. You save a bundle and you'll know from listening whether the speakers and the amplifier are working correctly.

Definitely come to the States for a wider range of choices.


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## Daywalker (Aug 21, 2005)

Wow. There is so much opinion floating around here it is hard to sort through it all. And opinion is all that it is. While there is an "absolute sound", few of us ever hear it the same way. Selection of well-matched audio components is very subjective to the listener. But the key is that the components should be well-matched. Each of the speaker brands that you listed will sound different with each of the amplififers that you listed, and each will sound different again depending on the speaker cable and component interconnects. Do the arithmetic and you will see that the possible combinations are too numerous to even be considered. That is why you should invest some time with a knowledgeable high-end dealer who has already done the homework and can help you to optimize your system. For the kind of money you're spending, you shouldn't waste it on expensive "hi-fi"; you should be getting near state-of-the-art performance. 

That said, my overall bias in loudspeakers is toward Martin Logan. They offer fantastic performance and when coupled with an adequately powered & matched subwoofer, the sound can be downright amazing. They aren't the last word in recreating a musical performance, but they are damn good. 

When deciding where to spend your dollars, it is generally accepted that the biggest bang will come from improving the front end components first. That is, the better the source, the better the ultimate sound. So, moderate speakers with an excellent front end will almost always sound better than excellent speakers with a mediocre front end.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Daywalker said:


> Wow. There is so much opinion floating around here it is hard to sort through it all. And opinion is all that it is. While there is an "absolute sound", few of us ever hear it the same way.


I do believe the OP a) asked for what we thought (opinion) and b) stated he realized the ultimate test was to listen to the equipment.



Daywalker said:


> That said, my overall bias in loudspeakers is toward Martin Logan.


An opinion as valid as any expressed above.

And 3-4k for "state-of-the-art" amp? Three k for "state-of-the-art" speakers? Ummm, that's an interesting opinion.


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## Daywalker (Aug 21, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I do believe the OP a) asked for what we thought (opinion) and b) stated he realized the ultimate test was to listen to the equipment.
> 
> An opinion as valid as any expressed above.
> 
> And 3-4k for "state-of-the-art" amp? Three k for "state-of-the-art" speakers? Ummm, that's an interesting opinion.


What is your point and why are you specifically taking issue with my post, especially since you think McIntosh and Carver are worth consideration? McIntosh is built like a tank and sounds like crap. And Carver hasn't done anything significant since the late 70's. You apparently equate cost with value--go right ahead. In high-end audio, state-of-the-art doesn't mean technology; it means SOUND.

For the money our friend is willing to invest, he can approach state-of-the-art sound easily, but not with the brands you recommend. If Sterophile magazine is to be believed (and I think it is), you can assemble a very fine system using ADCOM transistor components. I have heard them and I think that you would have to go a good bit further to obtain a meaningful performance jump. And I say that using my Audio Research tube equipment as my point of reference.

Especially in high-end audio, there is a price point beyond which you can spend a great deal more money for tiny, almost academic, improvements that really aren't worth the additional investment.


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I have never liked Carver or McIntosh personally. McIntosh is so pricey for the sound quality that new Conrad Johnson or Audio Research almost looks like a steal.

You really want to think about the overall integration of the amp and speaker. Some amps work better than others with certain speakers. 

Often in audio pairing an expensive amp with an expensive speaker can sound horrible if the match is not right.

Also, please note that modern tube amps are as neutral as transistors and often have as good or better bass, especially the important mid-bass area.

In short, don't go too much by brands, except favor those in business a while, but instead listen for a clear open sound and a midrange that seems real and natural.

Also, bring along a well-recorded (ideally audiophile "live to 2 track" recording) disc of music you like to the stereo store. Listen for the quality of the instruments...is the tonality right? in other words, do the drums, trumpet, piano sound just like the instrument does in real life? Then there is "soundstaging"..are the musicians spread out along a 3 dimensional soundfield like they are in a concert, ie. is the piano on the left, drums in the back, sax on the right, etc.? What about dynamics? Can you hear very soft and very loud passages cleanly? Is the transition between the two smooth?

Pianos have a nice "glassy" sound in real life but lesser systems will artificially soften the sound. A good speaker and electronics will get this right.


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## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

Daywalker said:


> What is your point and why are you specifically taking issue with my post, especially since you think McIntosh and Carver are worth consideration?


I am sorry, I thought I had expressed my point quite well. Let me reiterate it then. You seemed to cast aspersions on "opinions" when that was what the OP asked for. Then you felt free to offer yours. I will not bother with your opinions on my opinions, that's just plain silly. I will say though that I explained my rationale of suggesting Mac, if you had bothered to read it, you will see sound was not the factor I put it forth for.

I will not quibble with "near state-of-the-art" for the money he wishes to spend, I suppose the definition of that phrase is also open for opinion. Further, I did *not* put Carver forth as a suggestion. I might suggest you re-read my post for full comprehension.

Regards


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## Daywalker (Aug 21, 2005)

Wayfarer said:


> I am sorry, I thought I had expressed my point quite well. Let me reiterate it then. You seemed to cast aspersions on "opinions" when that was what the OP asked for. Then you felt free to offer yours. I will not bother with your opinions on my opinions, that's just plain silly. I will say though that I explained my rationale of suggesting Mac, if you had bothered to read it, you will see sound was not the factor I put it forth for.
> 
> I will not quibble with "near state-of-the-art" for the money he wishes to spend, I suppose the definition of that phrase is also open for opinion. Further, I did *not* put Carver forth as a suggestion. I might suggest you re-read my post for full comprehension.
> 
> Regards


Sir,
I did not cast aspersion on opinions. I merely pointed out that there is a better way to go about the whole process. That is, listen. And yes, I did then offer my own recommendation, same as you did.

As for your recommending McIntosh, if not for the sound, then why recommend an audio component intended to reproduce live music and voice? I could build an amplifier on my kitchen table that would last nearly forever.

I do not agree that the definition of SOTA is open to interpretation when talking about live event reproduction. The test is this: how close is it?
Electronics will never faithfully reproduce a live acoustic event or human voice to the point that you are fooled into believing that you are hearing the genuine thing. But the current SOTA is awfully close and our brains fill in the missing detail that creates a satisfying listening experience. That experience can be had for far less expense than some audio equipment manufacturers would want you to believe.

Peace.


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## DressPRMex (Jun 20, 2005)

*Thank you all!*

I'll be making my decision sometime soon. It seems that B&W is a good, hassle free option, easily available in Mexico. I appreciate the other recommendations provided, but I don't want to deal with duties and customs.

I'll also consider Martin Logans, provided I can splurge on a nice subwoofer.

Thanks again!


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## DressPRMex (Jun 20, 2005)

*How about NHT...*

My mother has a set of NHT loudspeakers which sound pretty OK, and I just learned this company is still around. Any thoughts?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

It depends...the older NHT designs were very good. I have not heard the more recent ones.


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## DressPRMex (Jun 20, 2005)

*Update*

Ok... So I've been going around the city, listening to all sorts of speakers here and there... So far, the ones I've liked best are Thiel's. They were shown to me in a super pro sound room, powered by an Aragon amp, and the sound is simply amazing.

What do you guys think about Thiel? They seem ridiculously overpriced. Are they worth it?

Also, maybe I ought to take my car up to Laredo or Houston and shop there. Anyone knows of a good shop up in TX?


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## mano (Mar 17, 2003)

DressPRMex said:


> Ok... So I've been going around the city, listening to all sorts of speakers here and there... So far, the ones I've liked best are Thiel's. They were shown to me in a super pro sound room, powered by an Aragon amp, and the sound is simply amazing.
> 
> What do you guys think about Thiel? They seem ridiculously overpriced. Are they worth it?QUOTE]
> 
> Which model Thiel and Aragon are you considering? As you may read from my post (above) you already know what I think about the Thiel/Aragon combination. Overpriced implies paying more than they're worth. Thiel invests considerable money into the R&D and the build quality of their speakers. To save some $ do consider buying used equipment.


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## DressPRMex (Jun 20, 2005)

Mano said:


> Which model Thiel and Aragon are you considering? As you may read from my post (above) you already know what I think about the Thiel/Aragon combination. Overpriced implies paying more than they're worth. Thiel invests considerable money into the R&D and the build quality of their speakers. To save some $ do consider buying used equipment.


You were absolutely right. The Aragon / Thiel combo is outstanding. As a matter of fact, I just ran into an 8008 Mark II used (display) power amp, which was offered to me for $2,200.00 Do you think this is a steal? Do they last a lifetime?


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## Artisan Fan (Jul 21, 2006)

I had an Aragon amp way back in the early 90s. Good amp. $2,200 seems a bit high given the dating of the amp but I could be wrong as they were popular in the day.


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## mano (Mar 17, 2003)

DressPRMex said:


> You were absolutely right. The Aragon / Thiel combo is outstanding. As a matter of fact, I just ran into an 8008 Mark II used (display) power amp, which was offered to me for $2,200.00 Do you think this is a steal? Do they last a lifetime?


A quick google search showed the 8008 Mark II is several steps above the 4004 Mark II I had about 10 years ago. It lists for $3,000 and it's about twice as heavy at 70 lbs! Power amps should last a lifetime as there are no moving parts. Assuming it comes with warranty and all packaging, it sounds like a good deal. IIRC dealers pay about 60% of retail. You may try to bargain down to $2,000, but it appears to be a terrific amp.

Which Thiels are you considering? Also, be sure the preamp sounds good with the other components. I chose a tube/solid state hybrid because I wanted to introduce some warmer tube sound into the system. From what I understand, today's solid state components do that without tubes.


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## DressPRMex (Jun 20, 2005)

*Thiel 3.7s*

Actually, this guy at a local high end audio store has them and is offering them to me for $4K... I may need a second mortgage!


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