# Barry Bonds is no Hank Aaron



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

Okay, so Bonds just tied Hank Aaron's homerun record and I'm sure he'll surpass it quite soon. I'm not a fan of his nor do I feel happy that this record is about to be broken. I can remember watching the Braves playing the Dodgers when Hank hit his 755. I wonder if part of me is rebelling against getting older and seeing this record being broken confirms I'm no longer that little boy in my mind.


----------



## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Several years ago some nimrod shot, or to be 'PC' harvested a buck with a massive rack. It wasn't long before his story fell apart and the very distincive tines identified as a older set already entered in the Boone and Crocket records. I understand hunting, can close my eyes from the nonsensical busyness of Southern California and go back to 'my' blue phase Kodiak and see him through the lyman ghost sight before throwing the safety back on and shaking my guide's hand. And I can remember Hank breaking the Babe's record, and the very wise person I was with saying in so doing Hank just made the Babe and Baseball even greater. Bonds? He's some perverted reversal of O.J.


----------



## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

I think we just don't like him. At least that's how I feel. The record is the record. I'm just not a fan of Barry Bonds.


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Gents,

A sad day for baseball. Hammerin' Hank was a class act who still doesn't get all the credit he deserves as the greatest baseball player EVER. The only saving grace is that Bonds will have a very short reign as Home Run king as ARod will surely reach 800 homers in the next 5-6 years, if he stays healthy. I do hope that Cooperstown never opens its doors to Barry Bonds.

Karl


----------



## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Not Ted Williams or the Babe?


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

all I can say is...

*


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

I find it strange how we come to dislike certain "public" figures, without really knowing them. For some reason I have never liked Barry Bonds. I can't give you specific reasons, it is just a "gut" feeling I have (and I'm one who follows my gut). I know the record is just a number on a page and eventually someone else will be writing their name on that page, but this one just doesn't feel right. I know the whole steroids issue is a large part of it. They made an interesting comment tonight about how Bonds went from hitting 31 homeruns one year to 71 homeruns just two years later. This was when he was in his late 30's, when most players start noticing a decrease in their strength and power. 

A-Rod, hit 500 today (Ironic they both were in a slump and came out of it today) and if he stays healthy, he'll break the homerun record. I'm not a huge fan of A-Rod's, but at least he seems to make baseball better. He is enormously talented all-around player who seem to love the game of baseball. I enjoy watching him play and hope he breaks the homerun record sooner than later =)


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Trenditional said:


> I find it strange how we come to dislike certain "public" figures, without really knowing them. For some reason I have never liked Barry Bonds. I can't give you specific reasons, it is just a "gut" feeling I have (and I'm one who follows my gut).


I've met Barry several times...and trust me...he deserves the public's contempt...alot of sports figures are very into themselves...but trust me...there was never a ruder more concieted (sp?) @$$hole ever to play a professional sport...trust me...

well...we can at least take comfort in the fact that Bonds will never win a ring...and at the end of the day...isnt that really what it's all about???


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

I guess I am a Giants fan first and foremost, so I will be the only one to voice a different opinion.  

When Barry swings that bat and connects, it truly is a beautiful thing to see. For me, I separate Barry Bonds the baseball player from Barry Bonds the man. I love to watch him play and was thrilled when the Giants acquired him. He helped us get the new stadium and has kept it filled year after year since it was built. It is true that he has little or no people skills at all, but he is still a great player. :crazy: 

I think Jose Canseco proved that steroids, which we know he used, make you much stronger but does not improve your eye at the plate, bat speed through the strike zone, or fluid swing. Canseco used to look like a caveman trying to beat the ball to death every time he swung the bat, much like Dave Kingman. ic12337: When he hit it, yes, it went a long ways, but he hit is so few times and his on base percentage was not even close to Barry Bonds. 

No point in bringing on all of the "evidence" against Barry, as I have heard it all. The bottom line is that when he comes to the plate it is exciting. And it is very true about him winning a ring. He came close a few years ago when they lost to the Angels and that will always bother him. For the Barry haters, focus on that since that will be his biggest failure as a player, that he could not get his team to the promised land.


----------



## TMMKC (Aug 2, 2007)

It's a sad day...and will be an even sadder one when that juiced-up, ill-tempered wanker breaks Hank Aaron's record. I still proudly hang a black-and-white photo of Hank Aaron hitting the HR to beat Ruth's record in my dressing room at home. The really disturbing thing to me about Bonds is that he could have done this the clean way if he wanted to. Pre-steroid use, he was already well on his to posting HOF numbers. Of course, he'd still be an ill-tempered wanker...but one without a freakishly large head and body.


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Karl,

The reason Hank Aaron doesn't get credit as the greatest player in history is that he wasn't, by a long shot. Certainly he was a good player, and by a combination of talent, longevity, and possibly a fortunate selection of home ball parks, he was able to break baseball's greatest record. However, he was never the player that Willie Mays was. The only thing that I ever had against Aaron was that his home run record overshadowed Mays at the end (kind of the same way I feel about Lance Armstrong and the real greatest cyclist ever, Eddy Merckx).


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Remember, whatever you think of Bonds' personality, cheating is defined as violating the rules of the competition, and there is no indication that he ever did that. Even assuming that he did use anabolic steroids (a fair assumption) and even assuming that he did it knowingly (somewhat less certain), the use of anabolic steroids was not prohibited by baseball at the time he was doing it.


----------



## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

I like Barry Bonds, the only baseball player I like. So I am happy he's breaking the record. Every time someone childishly points out some personality flaw, it makes me like him more. In my mind either your good or not and he was great player pre steroid use, and actually one or the best HR hitters in the league. Steroid use is a legit discussion and if you believe he used him it is completely acceptable to dislike him, granted they have the same disposition towards Sosa, and Co. I'm not a "real" fan of baseball so I take it less seriously and his steriod use has no influence on my opinion.


----------



## LotharoftheHillPeople (Apr 30, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> Karl,
> 
> The reason Hank Aaron doesn't get credit as the greatest player in history is that he wasn't, by a long shot. Certainly he was a good player, and by a combination of talent, longevity, and possibly a fortunate selection of home ball parks, he was able to break baseball's greatest record. However, he was never the player that Willie Mays was. The only thing that I ever had against Aaron was that his home run record overshadowed Mays at the end (kind of the same way I feel about Lance Armstrong and the real greatest cyclist ever, Eddy Merckx).


Hank Aaron was nowhere close to the greatest ball player in history? 
He holds records for: 1) total bases with 6856; 2) RBI with 2297; 3) extra base hits at 1477; and 4) of course, he is currently tied with Meathead at 755. 
He was awarded 3 Gold Gloves. He made 24 All Star appearances. He is the only player to hit 30 or more homeruns in 15 seasons. He is the only player to hit 20 or more homeruns in 20 seasons. He holds the record for the most consecutive seasons with 150 plus hits. He has 3771 career hits. And his lifetime average is .305. He also stole bases with something near 75% success.

It's hard to argue how Mays was a more dominate offensive player than Hank. It's hard to argue how anyone in the history of the game was more dominate offensively than Hank.

Willie Mays was, of course, a great player; but, he was no Hank Aaron. 
Mays' sole career record is: tied for most all star appearances with, you guessed it, Hank Aaron, at 24. He was awarded 12 Gold Gloves, which is amazing. 
He racked up 6066 total bases. He hit 660 home runs. He has 3283 total hits. He has a lifetime average of .302. He was the first player to reach 500 homeruns and 3000 hits.

I agree with you about Merckx, however. He was far and away the greatest cyclist in recorded history and will never be surpassed in achievement. Ever.


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Jack and Lothar,

The thing that does it for me is that Aaron would still have 3000 hits even if he had not hit one homer. If he had played in NY, LA or Chicago there is little doubt in my mind that Aaron would be universally acclaimed as the best player ever - without question.

And the grace under fire he displayed throughout his career is remarkable.

Karl


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

TMMKC said:


> It's a sad day...and will be an even sadder one when that juiced-up, ill-tempered wanker breaks Hank Aaron's record. I still proudly hang a black-and-white photo of Hank Aaron hitting the HR to beat Ruth's record in my dressing room at home. The really disturbing thing to me about Bonds is that he could have done this the clean way if he wanted to. Pre-steroid use, he was already well on his to posting HOF numbers. Of course, he'd still be an ill-tempered wanker...but one without a freakishly large head and body.


In my opinion, I don't think Bonds would have broken the record without some artificial assistance. It is very true that steroids isn't going to make you a homerun hitter (I couldn't come close to making contact with a major league fast ball), but steroids gives you the strength and power to keep hitting homers. Looking at the other injuries that he has been dealing with, I think like most people as they age they become more fragile. I don't think he'd still be playing had it not been for chasing the homerun record. And without juicing (opinions are like <blank> everyone has them, I say he has juiced) he wouldn't still be hitting them out of the park.


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

*I'm gobsmacked*

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that Aaron was a better player than Mays with a straight face, let alone two people. They are essentially equal in batting average and slugging percentage. Aaron obviously had more home runs, but never hit more than 44 in a season, which Mays did four times. Aaron was nowhere near the fielder or base runner that Mays was (first 30-30 guy). As an all-around player nobody has come close to Mays, which is probably why we still hear people talking about "the next Willie Mays" but we don't hear people talking about the next Hank Aaron.

Plus, one difference that doesn't show up in the numbers, and that you wouldn't know unless you saw him play, is that while Aaron was definitely a talented, solid, consistent player, Mays was an electrifying player who changed the game.


----------



## Karl89 (Feb 20, 2005)

Jack,

Mays had the advantage of the NY and SF media behind him, don't discount that factor at all.

Karl

P.S. Aaron never sullied himself as a casino greeter either!


----------



## LotharoftheHillPeople (Apr 30, 2006)

I'm very serious. An electrifying player does not the best player ever make. If I were a skipper, I'd much rather have somebody that hit for more total bases that someone that could steal bases. Wouldn't you? Hell, even then, Hank was no slouch at stealing 3 of every 4 he attempted. 
Look at the numbers. What other criteria should be used, if not career numbers?

Karl is dead on about the markets that Hank played in.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

I just wish Bonds would hurry up and break the record, so we can stop hearing about him everyday. Let's go ARod!


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Mays played a more difficult position and was certainly one of the best defenders ever at that position.

Mays at his best was probably a better player than Aaron. Aaron was able to keep his body together longer and accumulate more total statistics that Mays.

I will say that any manager at the time would have loved to have them both on his team.


----------



## LotharoftheHillPeople (Apr 30, 2006)

I believe Mays and Aaron played the same number of years. 

I agree that Mays 12 consecutive Gold Gloves are absolutely amazing.


----------



## KenR (Jun 22, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Mays played a more difficult position and was certainly one of the best defenders ever at that position.
> 
> Mays at his best was probably a better player than Aaron. Aaron was able to keep his body together longer and accumulate more total statistics that Mays.
> 
> I will say that any manager at the time would have loved to have them both on his team.


Forsberg, well put.

I also dislike Barry Bonds and do not think he should hold the all time record. Whether steroid use was "technically" not prohibited, it is still cheating. I feel the same about McGuire, Sosa, et al.

I also do not have much respect for Bruce Bochy, with his phony rah rah stuff (Everythings' great, I just love Barry). I think the Stepford Wives were more real.

To me, Hank Aaron will always be the home run leader, as is Roger Maris for a single season. As far as the all time best, I'll go with the Babe.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I haven't looked it up, but I think Mays started to fade at a younger age than Aaron. (Possibly, because a little more of his game was based on his speed. Aaron had really good speed, but Mays could run as fast as almost anyone.)

Both were great players.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I haven't looked it up, but I think Mays started to fade at a younger age than Aaron. (Possibly, because a little more of his game was based on his speed. Aaron had really good speed, but Mays could run as fast as almost anyone.)

Both were great players.

(By the way, stolen base totals have as much to do with a team's strategy as they do of a player's speed and should not be the only gauge used to measure speed.)


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Let Me Repeat Myself...

*


----------



## ksinc (May 30, 2005)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Let Me Repeat Myself...
> 
> *


Well said.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

As Sonny in _A Bronx Tale_ said, "Nobody cares."


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

So....now that is has happened, what does everyone think the ball will go for?


----------



## NewYorkBuck (May 6, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Let Me Repeat Myself...
> 
> *


Ditto.


----------



## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*Bonds is no Sosa, Rodriguez, Ruth or McGwire*

I know, I know, this is not how the records are kept, but I am a number cruncher by profession and temperment. Based on home runs per game played, Bonds comes in fifth behind the other players listed. I am only looking at homers per game here, not fielding, RBIs, walks or batting average, but then, the reason Bonds is getting coverage right now is solely related to the home run record.

For those who are interested (I realize I am probably alone in my interest):

Player Home Runs Games Played Runs per game
Barry Bonds 756 2958 .26
Sammy Sosa 604 2331 .26
Alex Rodriguez 500 1854 .27
Babe Ruth 714 2503 .29
Mark McGwire 583 1874 .31


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

There's probably some guy who got a home run in his only game, but his name hasn't gone down in history even with a homers per game average of 1.000.


----------



## Southern Comfort (Jul 25, 2007)

What do y'all think of Selig's absence from the game? True he had been attending for a while, but all of a sudden he had to meet with a committee on steroid use while Bonds broke the record. Ironic?


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

There's not much that Bud Lite could do that would lower my opinion of him.

Correction: if he were to lift Rose's lifetime ban or allow the DH rule in the National League that would lower my opinion of him.


----------



## DukeGrad (Dec 28, 2003)

*Home Run*

Gentlemen,

JackM Very good point, I agree with you regarding The Say Hey kid. He was a better all around plaver, especially his fielding. My feelings, Hank Aaaron was left out in L field, by the populice. And it is sad, he did break Babes record, and not many people know this man.
He put up with a lot as well, gotta admire this man just for that

Anyway, nice day my friends


----------



## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> There's probably some guy who got a home run in his only game, but his name hasn't gone down in history even with a homers per game average of 1.000.


That is why I confined my analysis to members of the 500 home run club.

I believe it is difficult to compare records from different eras. The baseball season is somewhat longer now, many great players had to take time off because of the draft, and of course sporting equipment and training has changed as well. That said, the careers of 4 of the top 5 did overlap. At his current rate, A-Rod will have hit 798 home runs by the time he plays as many games as Bonds.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

agnash said:


> I know, I know, this is not how the records are kept, but I am a number cruncher by profession and temperment. Based on home runs per game played, Bonds comes in fifth behind the other players listed. I am only looking at homers per game here, not fielding, RBIs, walks or batting average, but then, the reason Bonds is getting coverage right now is solely related to the home run record.
> 
> For those who are interested (I realize I am probably alone in my interest):
> 
> ...


This is pretty interesting...so...if Big Mac had continued to juice so that he could hang around waaay past his prime (much like Barroid is doing)...he would have shattered the lifetime record...hell...he'd actually be flirting with 1000...

I was reading this article last night https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_...cB?slug=dw-756bonds080707&prov=yhoo&type=lgns some really good points...I think the comparrison to an under three minute mile is quite appropriate...

Here's hoping that Cooperstown isnt stupid enough to ever allow him in...(although I hear his helmet, bat, and "bionic elbow" thing are all going to be on display already)...


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

I don't think there is anything that can be done to convince the Bonds haters, but I do have a couple of observations:

1. People who think of the past as some kind of drug-free halcyon time should wake up. Read books like Ball Four or Out of Their League and you'll see that our favorites from the past were also involved in using artificial substances to improve their performance. Like the steroids or not (and I don't), the steroid era doesn't demonstrate some kind of uniquely corrupt period.

2. If you reach agreement on which records were facilitated by the use of steroids, what do you do about other records that we know are in part the product of cheating, like Gaylord Perry's 314 games and Hall of Fame membership?


----------



## whnay. (Dec 30, 2004)

Mays is a great player and better than Aaron. I believe Bonds will go down as better than both but not better than the man that made the game of baseball what it is today: Babe Ruth. The man single handedly changed the way the game was played. During his prime he hit more homeruns than some major league teams (In 1927, he set the original single season mark with sixty home runs which was more than any other American League team had combined), he also would have been a HOF pitcher, was the figurehead on the greatest team ever in the history of baseball, and has more rings than all three men combined.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I don't like the pressure that steroid use puts on those who don't choose to use them. They give a large advantage and have deadly potential consequences. No one should be put in a situation where refusing to take them puts someone at a huge disadvantage.

The greenies, etc. from the Ball Four era are childs play in relation to the Human Growth Hormone and Steroids they do now.

I don't think the Ball Four thing is a really valid comparison.


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Went to about 40 games a year growing up, at the "Stick," and am a vote for Willie Mays as the greatest all around player of all time. Watching him was a real joy. I also enjoyed, very much, watching his teammates, Willie McCovey and Barry's father, Bobby Bonds. 

You can call us local Giants fans irrational about our support of Barry, but he is a part of a most special time of my life, my childhood, where my father took me to game after game. We had season tickets, lower box seats, behind home plate just off to the first base side, right behind the Giants dugout. 

In truth, my father and I have not always gotten along very well, but my fondest memories are of us going to those games together. That is something you cannot apply normal logic to. My love of the Giants is connected to my love of my father and so my support of Barry is not based in rational thought. Sorry for all the Barry haters.

I could care less whether Bud Selig attended the game or not. I do agree that bringing the DH to the NL would be a disaster. As to Pete Rose, I just do not see how anything he did impacted his play on the field and I think he belongs in the Hall of Fame, period. Growing up a Giants and A's fan, I was, of course, a Reds hater. But I sure liked to watch Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Griffey, and all of the other members of the "Big Red Machine."

I look at this Barry Bonds steroids thing the same way liberal Democrats look at the Bill Clinton Moncia Lewinsky, et al. issue. His conduct does not change his accomplishments. Now, I am not sure what Bill Clinton ever did of any worth, which is another debate, but the principle holds for me. Clinton is an immoral degenerate, but some think he was a great President (I am not one). Barry may be the biggest jerk on earth, but he is still a great baseball player and no one has demonstrated to me that steroid use, even if ultimately PROVEN to have been knowingly utilized by him, affected anything other than his size. It did not affect his bat speed, eye at the plate, and fluid swing. 

Final note: Hank Aaron was a great player and incredible homerun hitter, no doubt. What he has that Bonds will never have, admittedly, is character. His congratulatory speech to Bonds was one of the classiest moves I have seen in quite some time. I was, frankly, stunned, and he has only added to his incredible stature. One can debate Bonds all one wants, but what Aaron did transcends baseball, Bonds, and the steroid controversy: He is a true gentleman with character and stature.


----------



## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> I don't think there is anything that can be done to convince the Bonds haters, but I do have a couple of observations:


I did not mean to suggest that I am a Bonds hater. I am rather ambivalent about the whole thing. I suppose it is possible that he took steriods, but then it looks like everyone in sports is taking steroids. Except Dave Eckstein. I believe he can say the same as Bob Costas "As anyone can plainly see, I'm 5-6 1/2 and a strapping 150, and unlike some people, I came by all of it naturally", or something pretty similar. :icon_smile:


----------



## Trenditional (Feb 15, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> There's not much that Bud Lite could do that would lower my opinion of him.
> 
> Correction: if he were to lift Rose's lifetime ban or allow the DH rule in the National League that would lower my opinion of him.


I was a supporter of Rose up until he admitted to betting on Reds games.


----------



## jackmccullough (May 10, 2006)

Trenditional said:


> I was a supporter of Rose up until he admitted to betting on Reds games.


It's too bad, because even though he was something of a redass what he did with his natural talent and size was truly amazing.

I was a supporter of Rose up until it was proved that he bet on games. The fact that he lied about it afterwards compounded the crime.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

jackmccullough said:


> I don't think there is anything that can be done to convince the Bonds haters, but I do have a couple of observations:
> 
> 1. People who think of the past as some kind of drug-free halcyon time should wake up. Read books like Ball Four or Out of Their League and you'll see that our favorites from the past were also involved in using artificial substances to improve their performance. Like the steroids or not (and I don't), the steroid era doesn't demonstrate some kind of uniquely corrupt period.
> 
> 2. If you reach agreement on which records were facilitated by the use of steroids, what do you do about other records that we know are in part the product of cheating, like Gaylord Perry's 314 games and Hall of Fame membership?


I wouldn't say I'm a Bonds hater either. I don't like the guy's attitude, but he is a good ballplayer. As a Cardinals fan, I loved to watch Big Mac crush homeruns into the upper deck at Busch, so I can understand whomewhat being excited that a Giants player broke the record. I was thrilled when McGwire broke the single season HR record. That said, I still don't think either of them should be in the HOF.

I do think Pete Rose should be in the HOF though. He bet on baseball as a manager, not a player. His records on the field, as a player were not changed by what he later did as a manager.


----------



## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

jackmccullough said:


> I don't think there is anything that can be done to convince the Bonds haters, but I do have a couple of observations:
> 
> 1. People who think of the past as some kind of drug-free halcyon time should wake up. Read books like Ball Four or Out of Their League and you'll see that our favorites from the past were also involved in using artificial substances to improve their performance. Like the steroids or not (and I don't), the steroid era doesn't demonstrate some kind of uniquely corrupt period.
> 
> 2. If you reach agreement on which records were facilitated by the use of steroids, what do you do about other records that we know are in part the product of cheating, like Gaylord Perry's 314 games and Hall of Fame membership?


We are talking about what to many is the most esteemed record in sports, so to me this is different. There's enough evidence to convince me the guy took steroids, an illegal drug that enabled him to break an extremely cherished record, something that Gaylord Perry and players taking uppers did not do. We are not in a criminal court, so the standard isn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt. His physical build changed in an extreme way, he hit an incredible number of HR's outside of what should have been his prime, and then there's the failure of his trainer Greg Anderson to talk to the feds about good ole Barry, and there's more in "Game of Shadows," I'm sure. His body seemed to have began to get much bigger when he was 35/36 in 2000, and his annual HR totals from then until his leg injury in 2005 were 49, 73, 46, 45, and 45 (give me a break!). While Barry Bonds has been a great baseball player, and I do think that absent a drug related conviction that he will be voted into the Hall of Fame, he tainted his career and the home run record because we was so full of himself and envious of the attention that McGwire and Sosa were getting. More here: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12503703 .


----------



## philm (Jun 17, 2007)

*Hank and Bonds*

All records are broken eventually, but in this case it was not broken with the unanimity about the complete and dynamic style with which Hank broke it. I loved the comment that Hank's breaking the record only make the Babe more famous. Let's hope for tradition that Hank will always be remembered as the strongest, purest athlete compared to Bobby, at least by my fleeting generation of Baby Boomers (b. 1944).

There's a new bio of Mantle out, and I wonder if it will do anything for our memories of him.


----------



## stuman (Oct 6, 2005)

Look at what this guy once looked like. Enough said.


----------



## agnash (Jul 24, 2006)

*Now A-Rod is no Aaron, but he may be a Bonds*

I couldn't help but notice that of the 5 players in my earlier posting, only one played before the era of steroids. Looks like A-Rod is going to be the next Bonds.


----------



## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

For a minute let's take baseball and personality out of this. My understanding is that without the continued use of steroids one will lose the bulk? Am I incorrect (maybe)..if not then Bonds may still be using steroids. I find it harder to believe that Armstrong did as his body did not show signs of steroid use. In the animal harvesting business steroids are used for one reason only, but bulk up that animal for slaughter.


----------



## smr (Apr 24, 2005)

guitone said:


> For a minute let's take baseball and personality out of this. My understanding is that without the continued use of steroids one will lose the bulk? Am I incorrect (maybe)..if not then Bonds may still be using steroids. I find it harder to believe that Armstrong did as his body did not show signs of steroid use. In the animal harvesting business steroids are used for one reason only, but bulk up that animal for slaughter.


There have been reports that some players have moved to Human Growth Hormone (or HGH), which supposedly has the same effect as steriods and cannot be detected by current tests used by MLB. So that's a possiblity, but there's obviously no way to know for certain.


----------



## medwards (Feb 6, 2005)

Bonds will not be back in San Francisco next season:

https://sports.aol.com/mlb/story/_a...s/20070921185709990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

medwards said:


> Bonds will not be back in San Francisco next season:
> 
> https://sports.aol.com/mlb/story/_a...s/20070921185709990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001


Ha Ha...I love it...although from what I hear the A's might pick him up...not that Mr. Wolff cares, but I won't be attending a single A's game next year if that moron is playing DH in Oakland...


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Somebody's just been indicted...



....hmmmm...looks like old barroid might just be wearing orange next year...


----------



## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

Of course there's the controversy about Bond's "elbow brace" that is way beyond any steroid use. If the analysis of what advantages it provides is true then he really doesn't deserve even the asterisk.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Akajack said:


> Of course there's the controversy about Bond's "elbow brace" that is way beyond any steroid use. If the analysis of what advantages it provides is true then he really doesn't deserve even the asterisk.


Yeah, I have never liked the use of these type of pads in baseball. Bonds isn't the only one that uses them though. 
They already lowered the pitcher's mound, so why give yet another advantage to the batter? A ball, bat, helmet, glove and spikes are all the players need.


----------



## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

This article made some educated guesses about how much Bond's articulated elbow brace has helped him:

By Michael Witte 

Published: August 08, 2007 10:45 AM Monday, updated Wednesday 
NEW YORK (Commentary) Beyond his alleged steroid use, Barry Bonds is guilty of the use of something that confers extraordinarily unfair mechanical advantage: the "armor" that he wears on his right elbow. Amid the press frenzy over Bonds' unnatural bulk, the true role of the object on his right arm has simply gone unnoticed. 

This is unfortunate, because by my estimate, Bonds' front arm "armor" may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total. 

Bonds tied Henry Aaron's home run record of 755 on Saturday night and will go for the new standard this week back at home in San Francisco. 

As a student of baseball - and currently a mechanics consultant to a major league baseball team -- I believe I have insight into the Bonds "achievement." I have studied his swing countless times on video and examined the mechanical gear closely through photographs. 

For years, sportswriters remarked that his massive "protective" gear - unequaled in all of baseball -- permits Bonds to lean over the plate without fear of being hit by a pitch. Thus situated, Bonds can handle the outside pitch (where most pitchers live) unusually well. This is unfair advantage enough, but no longer controversial. However, it is only one of at least seven (largely unexplored) advantages conferred by the apparatus. 

The other six: 

1) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal "hitting machine" that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke. 

2) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds' wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical "assistant." 

3) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus "connected," he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body - not just his arms - as average hitters ("extending") tend to do. 

4) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a "protector" facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin. 

5) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his "assistant" - counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest. 

6) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his "assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of "assistant" and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution. 

At the moment, Bonds' apparatus enjoys "grandfathered" status. Similar devices are presently denied to average major leaguers, who must present evidence of injury before receiving an exemption. 

Bonds has worn some sort of front arm protection since 1992. In '94, a one-piece forearm guard was replaced by a jointed, two piece elbow model. In '95 it got bigger and a small "cap" on the elbow was replaced by a "flap" that overlapped the upper piece and locked the two pieces together when the arm was elongated. In '96, the "apparatus" grew even larger and so did the "flap." 

It seems to have remained relatively the same until -- interestingly- 2001, the year of his record 73 home runs, when an advanced model appeared made (apparently) of a new material. It had softer edges and a groove for the flap to slip into automatically at full arm elongation. More important, the upper half of the machine was sculpted to conform more comfortably to the contours of Bonds' upper arm. Since 2001, the apparatus seems to have remained relatively unchanged. 

Several years back, baseball was rightfully scandalized by the revelation that Sammy Sosa had "corked" his bat. The advantages conferred by the Bonds "hitting machine," however, far exceed anything supplied by cork. Ultimately, it appears the Bonds "achievement" must be regarded as partly the product of "double duplicity" -- steroidal and mechanical. 

________________________________________ 
Michael Witte ([email protected]) is a well-known illustrator whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, Time, Sports Illustrated, The Wall Street Journal and dozens of other publications. The New Yorker recently wrote a piece about him and his study of mechanics, and he is presently a paid consultant to a major league team on mechanics. He appeared on network TV coverage of the 2003 World Series, providing cartoon sketches of some of the action. 



Laxplayer said:


> Yeah, I have never liked the use of these type of pads in baseball. Bonds isn't the only one that uses them though.
> They already lowered the pitcher's mound, so why give yet another advantage to the batter? A ball, bat, helmet, glove and spikes are all the players need.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

Akajack said:


> This article made some educated guesses about how much Bond's articulated elbow brace has helped him:


Thanks for the article. I knew that the brace would take away the inside corner for the pitcher, but had never thought that it may help him in other ways.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

the fact of the matter is that Bonds is a sumbag of the highest order, he's a cheated and a liar, and worse than both of those things he treats fans very badly...I highly doubt he'll get locked up at all, but here's hoping that a lifetime ban from baseball follows this trial...


----------



## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

If there's even a bit of evidence he lied under oath I believe he'll do Martha Stewart-type time. The perjury charges are serious business.



The Gabba Goul said:


> the fact of the matter is that Bonds is a sumbag of the highest order, he's a cheated and a liar, and worse than both of those things he treats fans very badly...I highly doubt he'll get locked up at all, but here's hoping that a lifetime ban from baseball follows this trial...


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Just for the sake of clarity here, he was indicted. He was not tried or convicted, he was indicted! If memory serves me, so were three members of the Duke LaCrosse team? A grand jury would indict Abraham Lincoln in abstencia of plotting his own death! It means NOTHING!


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> Just for the sake of clarity here, he was indicted. He was not tried or convicted, he was indicted! If memory serves me, so were three members of the Duke LaCrosse team? A grand jury would indict Abraham Lincoln in abstencia of plotting his own death! It means NOTHING!


Seems you and Barry are the only ones that feel this way. Oh, that's right...you're a Giants fan. 
btw, OJ was never convicted either.


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

So, then you would have jailed for life the three Duke LaCrosse players, right? Afterall, they were indicted! And yes, I am a big Giants fan. I am an even bigger fan of DUE PROCESS!


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> *So, then you would have jailed for life the three Duke LaCrosse players, right? *Afterall, they were indicted! And yes, I am a big Giants fan. I am an even bigger fan of DUE PROCESS!


Who said anything about a LIFE SENTENCE? Does the use of CAPITAL LETTERS help get your point across? I don't care if BARRY BONDS goes to jail or not. I don't think he DESERVES THE HR RECORD, and I do think he CHEATED! Read Akajack's post above about Barry's bionic arm. If you want to defend Bonds and pretend he is not a cheater, fine. I really don't care what you do. After he is found guilty, are you still going to claim he is INNOCENT?
FYI, it's lacrosse. LaCrosse is a city in Wisconsin.


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> Who said anything about a LIFE SENTENCE? Does the use of CAPITAL LETTERS help get your point across? I don't care if BARRY BONDS goes to jail or not. I don't think he DESERVES THE HR RECORD, and I do think he CHEATED! Read Akajack's post above about Barry's bionic arm. If you want to defend Bonds and pretend he is not a cheater, fine. I really don't care what you do. After he is found guilty, are you still going to claim he is INNOCENT?
> FYI, it's lacrosse. LaCrosse is a city in Wisconsin.


I always find it amusing when people incapable of defending their position look for grammatical errors or inane issues such as use of capital letters to replace their lack of intelligent thought.

"Who said anything about a LIFE SENTENCE?"

If the "lacrosse" players had been wrongly convicted, which they most certainly would have been if the prosecutor had his way, they could have faced a lifetime in prison. Did you miss that point?

"Does the use of CAPITAL LETTERS help get your point across?"

Apparently not as it went right over your head.

"I don't care if BARRY BONDS goes to jail or not."

Did I mention anything about Barry going to jail? Maybe that was a Freudian slip on your part?

"I don't think he DESERVES THE HR RECORD, and I do think he CHEATED!"

First you state you "don't think," then you say you "do think?" Personally, I think you had it right the first time, you don't. Why doesn't he "deserve" the record? He hit the homeruns, didn't he? He has not been convicted of anything nor has anything been proven yet. Again, I repeat for those slow at learning, due process. Until and unless he is proven to be guilty of something, rather than a victim of what people like you think and don't think, the record is his. I think you are an idiot. I guess based on your I think therefore you are theory you must therefore be one, right?

"Read Akajack's post above about Barry's bionic arm."

Okay, well don't I feel stupid now. Michael Witte has analyzed the whole thing and told us what the truth is so, stop the presses, we do not need to proceed any further. Barry is done! Just ask Michael Witte.

"If you want to defend Bonds and pretend he is not a cheater, fine."

I did not, have not, and do not need to defend Bonds. Other than opinions and speculation that he has cheated, nothing has been proven. Once again, due process.

"I really don't care what you do."

Your several posts to the contrary notwithstanding!

"After he is found guilty, are you still going to claim he is INNOCENT?"

And if he is not found guilty, are you still going to claim he is guilty? Along with missing the part about due process, did you also skip over the part about "innocnet until proven guilty?"

"FYI, it's lacrosse. LaCrosse is a city in Wisconsin."

I stand corrected. Barry must be guilty, afterall, I misspelled lacrosse! The superior argument has prevailed!

By the way laxplayer, will those LA Dodgers be forfeiting that World Series win against the Yankees since drug addict Steve Howe helped them get there and win? I mean he was doing drugs and he cheated so shouldn't the Dodgers forfeit that championship or at least have some sort of asterisk on their title? Just curious if you are consistent or just a true blue Giant hater. Have a truly nice weekend!


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

_I always find it amusing when people incapable of defending their position look for grammatical errors or inane issues such as use of capital letters to replace their lack of intelligent thought. _

I was just making fun of your "shouting".

_If the "lacrosse" players had been wrongly convicted, which they most certainly would have been if the prosecutor had his way, they could have faced a lifetime in prison. Did you miss that point?_

No, and I wasn't the one to bring up jail time. You did.

_Did I mention anything about Barry going to jail? Maybe that was a Freudian slip on your part?_

No slip. I honestly don't care if he goes to jail or not. It's not like you or I know the guy. What do I care what happens to him? I think he cheated and does not deserve the record. Again, you are the one that brought up jail time.

_First you state you "don't think," then you say you "do think?" Personally, I think you had it right the first time, you don't. Why doesn't he "deserve" the record? He hit the homeruns, didn't he? He has not been convicted of anything nor has anything been proven yet. Again, I repeat for those slow at learning, due process. Until and unless he is proven to be guilty of something, rather than a victim of what people like you think and don't think, the record is his. I think you are an idiot. I guess based on your I think therefore you are theory you must therefore be one, right?_

Again with the insults. I think you're an idiot, and you whine in almost every post you make in the Interchange. You remind me of the kid in class, who always has their hand in the air ready to tattle on someone. Why don't you post the forum rules again, and whine some more? And as for due process, where in the law does it say I can't have an opinion? I'm not on the jury, and will have absolutely no say in the outcome of his trial. If you don't agree with my opinion, that's just fine.

_Okay, well don't I feel stupid now. Michael Witte has analyzed the whole thing and told us what the truth is so, stop the presses, we do not need to proceed any further. Barry is done! Just ask Michael Witte._

Again, it's my opinion. I felt Witte's analysis made sense.

_And if he is not found guilty, are you still going to claim he is guilty? Along with missing the part about due process, did you also skip over the part about "innocnet until proven guilty?"_

Once again, it's my personal opinion that he cheated. I really doubt that the federal prosecutors would be wasting their time on Barry Bonds if they didn't have enough evidence to bring this to trial. I guess we will see.

_I stand corrected. Barry must be guilty, afterall, I misspelled lacrosse! The superior argument has prevailed!_

What argument? I was just correcting your spelling of a sport I play.

_By the way laxplayer, will those LA Dodgers be forfeiting that World Series win against the Yankees since drug addict Steve Howe helped them get there and win? I mean he was doing drugs and he cheated so shouldn't the Dodgers forfeit that championship or at least have some sort of asterisk on their title? Just curious if you are consistent or just a true blue Giant hater. Have a truly nice weekend!_

I don't hate the Giants. I don't give much thought to them or the Dodgers. They aren't in the NL Central. Only when they play the Cards do I root against them. FYI, I think McGwire is a cheater also, even though I loved watching him play. 
Thanks, I plan to have a nice weekend.


----------



## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

Laxplayer said:


> Seems you and Barry are the only ones that feel this way. Oh, that's right...you're a Giants fan.
> btw, OJ was never convicted either.


So he's guuilty because you and the forum say so? Sorry, but that is what the courts are for.


----------



## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

I do not know what the point of all the whining and attacks on Barry's character. He has the record, he's always been among the best players in the league and I think eventually all this nastiness about the drugs and such will disappear and he'll be celebrated. The sense of entitlement of some people is unbelievable.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> So he's guuilty because you and the forum say so? Sorry, but that is what the courts are for.


Just my opinion, jpeirpont. As I told the annoying fellow above, it doesn't really matter what I think. I'm not on the jury, and will have no say in the outcome of his trial.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

jpeirpont said:


> The sense of entitlement of some people is unbelievable.


In so many ways, you just said a mouthful.


----------



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Due process pertains to the ability of a government to deprive one of his life, liberty or property; it has nothing to do with the ability of major league baseball to deprive Bonds of a record. The fact that we may not be able to establish Bonds' use of illegal steroids beyond a "reasonable doubt" using formal rules evidence in no way encumbers major league baseball from acknowledging the fact that there is ample evidence of cheating under more ordinary standards. An employer can fire someone if he believes he is stealing, even if he could not prove it in a criminal court, or any court for that matter. Bonds is a cheat, and the only folks who think otherwise are delusional self-serving Giants fans.


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Mike Petrik said:


> Due process pertains to the ability of a government to deprive one of his life, liberty or property; it has nothing to do with the ability of major league baseball to deprive Bonds of a record. The fact that we may not be able to establish Bonds' use of illegal steroids beyond a "reasonable doubt" using formal rules evidence in no way encumbers major league baseball from acknowledging the fact that there is ample evidence of cheating under more ordinary standards. An employer can fire someone if he believes he is stealing, even if he could not prove it in a criminal court, or any court for that matter. Bonds is a cheat, and the only folks who think otherwise are delusional self-serving Giants fans.


My "delusional, self-serving" fanaticism notwithstanding, I was speaking to the indictment handed down, which a review of the posts will demonstrate. I have never mentioned anything about Major League baseball, but since you did, due process also applies to those have a union contract where due process is guaranteed. So, in either case, you are still wrong, which I know makes me oh so "annoying." The truth can be a real pain sometimes.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I think it's a shame Barry took the drugs. He was probably an all-time great even without them (although it's a shame that he's also a first class jerk.) Speaking of first class jerks, I really don't understand the pillorying of Laxplayer and I believe Whomewhat said more about himself than he did about any of Laxplayer's posts.

Go ahead and flame me too if it makes you feel better.


----------



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

whomewhat said:


> My "delusional, self-serving" fanaticism notwithstanding, I was speaking to the indictment handed down, which a review of the posts will demonstrate. I have never mentioned anything about Major League baseball, but since you did, due process also applies to those have a union contract where due process is guaranteed. So, in either case, you are still wrong, which I know makes me oh so "annoying." The truth can be a real pain sometimes.


Are you suggesting that the union contract covers records? That would seem unlikely. I don't recall that, but I admit it has been several years since I read it.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> My "delusional, self-serving" fanaticism notwithstanding, I was speaking to the indictment handed down, which a review of the posts will demonstrate. I have never mentioned anything about Major League baseball, but since you did, due process also applies to those have a union contract where due process is guaranteed. So, in either case, you are still wrong, which I know makes me oh so "annoying." The truth can be a real pain sometimes.


Mike Petrik and I are not part of MLB, the player's union or the justice system, so how do you figure due process applies to us?You just don't like it that we disagree with you, and are calling your ballplayer a cheater. 
I really should stop responding to your posts. I'd hate to make you cry again like another forum did a few months ago.


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

No, a union contract guarantees due process to its members, that is the sole issue I was speaking to. Taking any kind of punitive action against a member protected by a union contract would require due process to be given that person. If, after following the requirements of the contract, baseball wanted to deprive Bonds of his records, then so be it. The same is true with regards to the criminal indictment. After Bonds gets his day in court, should he lose, then they can do whatever they want to him. 

My stated problem with the anti-Bonds mania, which seems to be the subject of much manipulation and reinvention, is with punishing someone who, for the moment, is only suspected of wrongdoing. The point has always been that if we deprive rights to those we may dislike then we can and will deprive them of anyone. It is easy to hate Bonds and say the hell with him, but when it is you who is being wrongly charged with something, you will scream bloody murder for them to give you your due process rights. If you do not defend Bond's right to due process then you should not demand it for yourself. By the standard some are promoting here the three Duke lacrosse students should have all gone to jail for life for a crime they did not commit because half the country, if not more, was convinced when they were charged that they were guilty. 

As to forsbergacct2000 and his remarks, "Whomewhat said more about himself ," why don't you educate all of us as to what it is you think I said about myself? What, that I am a strong believer in due process? I, too, have notriced that whenever I post MY opinion that I get these type of unsubstantiated attacks on my character. Maybe I should contact Andy, since it is his site, and ask him how many posts I have to have before I am allowed to express my opinions, too, since some here seem to think only they have free speech.

For the record, this is AAAC, not some other forum, and while I know many of you post here and on other forums where I cannot post and would like to see me likewise banned, until I am I will call it as I see it, too, thank you. As far as I know, this forum is not run by mob rule, as are others, so trying the same tactic that was tried before, claiming I am saying things, have said things, or think some things that I have not actually ever expressed, does not get you banned here. I know that bothers the internet bullies, but you'll have to get over it.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> No, a union contract guarantees due process to its members, that is the sole issue I was speaking to. Taking any kind of punitive action against a member protected by a union contract would require due process to be given that person. If, after following the requirements of the contract, baseball wanted to deprive Bonds of his records, then so be it. The same is true with regards to the criminal indictment. After Bonds gets his day in court, should he lose, then they can do whatever they want to him.
> 
> My stated problem with the anti-Bonds mania, which seems to be the subject of much manipulation and reinvention, is with punishing someone who, for the moment, is only suspected of wrongdoing. The point has always been that if we deprive rights to those we may dislike then we can and will deprive them of anyone. It is easy to hate Bonds and say the hell with him, but when it is you who is being wrongly charged with something, you will scream bloody murder for them to give you your due process rights. If you do not defend Bond's right to due process then you should not demand it for yourself. By the standard some are promoting here the three Duke lacrosse students should have all gone to jail for life for a crime they did not commit because half the country, if not more, was convinced when they were charged that they were guilty.
> 
> ...


Ok, whomewhat last time. Since you keep bringing up the Duke lacrosse team here goes, the lacrosse team had their season canceled by the school as soon as the players were arrested. The lacrosse coach was fired. They were later found not guilty. Your analogy is faulty...try again.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Whomewhat, I can guess why you have been banned elsewhere. Your appetite for Cyber-drama is obvious. Flame away.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Whomewhat, I can guess why you have been banned elsewhere. Your appetite for Cyber-drama is obvious. Flame away.


_For the record, this is AAAC, not some other forum, and while I know many of you post here and on other forums where I cannot post and would like to see me likewise banned, until I am I will call it as I see it, too, thank you. As far as I know, this forum is not run by mob rule, as are others, so trying the same tactic that was tried before, claiming I am saying things, have said things, or think some things that I have not actually ever expressed, does not get you banned here. I know that bothers the internet bullies, but you'll have to get over it._

Cyber-drama is right, forsberg. The poor guy must be talking to himself. I don't remember reading any posts that asked for him to be banned.


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Whomewhat, I can guess why you have been banned elsewhere. Your appetite for Cyber-drama is obvious. Flame away.


You can attempt your futile tactics on someone else, if you like. You call people names, make accusations against them, and then end with "Flame away." Only a complete idiot would not see through such a tactic, to accuse someone of the very thing you are yourself engaging in. All you do is follow me around and attack whatever I say and then accuse me of flaming. I suppose it has worked for you in the past. I don't know and I don't care.

As to the Duke lacrosse players, it is almost too funny that you make my point and do not even get that you did: "the lacrosse team had their season canceled by the school as soon as the players were arrested. The lacrosse coach was fired. They were later found not guilty." You left out that a whole slew of the teachers signed a petition against the students. Guess what, they did nothing wrong! By the way, you are wrong they were not found not guilty, as you suggest, the Attorney General took the unprecedented step of actually declaring them "innocent," which is very, very different than not guilty.

Sometimes, facts are just a very difficult thing for some people to grasp onto as they are used to destroying poeple's lives through inuendo, not fact. When it happens to you, come tell me what your "opinion" is on the subject. I spent an entire career successfully defending people who, like you, did not much like me. Funny thing is, when they got into trouble, they all came running to me to defend them and get them out of trouble. These were people, in some cases, I actually knew and cared about and I got over it. In your case, I do not know you and could care less what you think of me. I was over it before you even responded.

You think way too highly of yourself if you believe your opinion of me actually matters, but go ahead and continue to flame against me and then accuse me of doing the same. If you think you can attack me without any consequence, that is, I won't respond, well, you are wrong about that too. If you think repeating something a thousand times will make it true, well, you are also wrong about that. Keep trying though, it is almost funny watching you try so hard to prove how cool you are by attacking me. Are your friends all PMing you telling you what a big man you are? Are they encouraging you to keep it up because you are getting to me and it is only a matter of time before I will get myself into trouble? Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> You can attempt your futile tactics on someone else, if you like. You call people names, make accusations against them, and then end with "Flame away." Only a complete idiot would not see through such a tactic, to accuse someone of the very thing you are yourself engaging in. All you do is follow me around and attack whatever I say and then accuse me of flaming. I suppose it has worked for you in the past. I don't know and I don't care.
> 
> As to the Duke lacrosse players, it is almost too funny that you make my point and do not even get that you did: "the lacrosse team had their season canceled by the school as soon as the players were arrested. The lacrosse coach was fired. They were later found not guilty." You left out that a whole slew of the teachers signed a petition against the students. Guess what, they did nothing wrong! By the way, you are wrong they were not found not guilty, as you suggest, the Attorney General took the unprecedented step of actually declaring them "innocent," which is very, very different than not guilty.
> 
> ...


I think you have me and forsberg confused. He didn't call you names. I did, after you said I was an idiot.
How are Barry Bonds and the lacrosse team alike? Barry has not been fired, he does not have an asterisk next to his record, and he was not suspended from baseball. He has been charged with lying under oath about his use of steroids. That's it. If he is found guilty, _maybe_ the other things will happen. I guess we will see.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm not getting any PMs for what it's worth. Were you allowed to do a dramatic death scene on the other sites where you were banned?

I don't care whether you are banned or not. Sometimes I stick up for people who deserve it.


----------



## whomewhat (Nov 11, 2006)

Laxplayer said:


> He didn't call you names. I did, after you said I was an idiot.


You see, there you go again. I never "called" you an idiot. What I said is exactly this: "I think you are an idiot. I guess based on your I think therefore you are theory you must therefore be one, right?"

You made a bunch of derogatory statements, some about Bonds and others about me, you preceded some of them with "I think," and I then made the point above. If the point was lost on you, so be it, but I was trying to demonstrate that it is not enough for someone to "think" something about someone before you set out to ruin their life, you need proof, evidence, facts.

As to drama, the only ones creating drama are you and your self-proclaimed "defender." I made a point that you did not like and it was you who attacked me, first. Some people enjoy attacking people, but they are lousy at receiving the same. If you don't want to be attacked, don't attack first. If you don't want drama, don't start drama.

Again, you both seem to have very high opinions of yourself and of your influence. This is an anonymous internet forum. Now, I do know a bit about Andy and Alex, and they about me, outside of the cloak of anonymity, but as to the two of you, I do not know anything about you other than your AAAC screen name and what you write. Based on my limited observation, you are an internet bully who thrives under the cloak of anonymity.

Frankly, I had stopped posting for a while in the interchange, which I know thrills you no end, until this thread. Due process is a very important issue to me and so I chimed in. Obviously, you don't care about due process. Fine.

A few final points, and then I will end my posts in this particular thread and you can have the next and last words and call me whatever names make you feel good about yourself or make up whatever character traits help you sleep well at night, I don't really care. If "Yankee Stadium is the House the Ruth Built," then Pac Bell is the Park that Barry built. The success he had, the filled stadiums, they are what led the Giants organization to finally build the team a real baseball stadium. Anyone who has ever attended a night game at Candlestick knows what this means to Giants fans. Willie Mays and Willie McCovey, these are the faces of the Giants, not Barry, but Barry did get us a ballpark and that is something I appreciate, as a Giants fan.

Barry Bonds is uniquely hated, by many, and I undestand this. He is a jerk. The problem is no one is being honest about it and admitting that they just hate Barry. It is not about the alleged steroid use. If it was and is, then we know McGuire, Canseco, et al, utilized performance enhancing drugs and their teams won championships. Where is the call to take those away from them, from those teams? I mentioned Steve Howe earlier. Where is the outrage over the Dodger championships? This is personal, about Barry Bonds, and I just wish people would be honest enough to admit this rather than hide behind the inconsistency of the alleged steroid use by Bonds, knowingly.

Our laws were uniquely written to endow rights to the most hated, most villified, most deserving criminals, so as to protect the rights of the innocent. If we start waiving those rights for some then it is just a matter of time before they are waived for all. That is not American.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

_You see, there you go again. I never "called" you an idiot. What I said is exactly this: "I think you are an idiot. I guess based on your I think therefore you are theory you must therefore be one, right?"_

No, I don't see. Called, think...you're just mincing words. Fine, I _think_ you're an asshole. That's ok right, since I didn't call you one?

_ You made a bunch of derogatory statements, some about Bonds and others about me, you preceded some of them with "I think," and I then made the point above. If the point was lost on you, so be it, but I was trying to demonstrate that it is not enough for someone to "think" something about someone before you set out to ruin their life, you need proof, evidence, facts._

How exactly am I going to ruin Barry's life? I'm flattered that you think I am so powerful as to do such a thing, but in reality I'm unable to do anything to Barry at all.

_ As to drama, the only ones creating drama are you and your self-proclaimed "defender." I made a point that you did not like and it was you who attacked me, first. Some people enjoy attacking people, but they are lousy at receiving the same. If you don't want to be attacked, don't attack first. If you don't want drama, don't start drama.

_I don't need a defender, and never asked for forsberg to defend me. You're also a liar. I did not attack you first. You said you think I'm an idiot. All I said was, "Oh, that's right...you're a Giant's fan." If you think that is an attack, you're way too sensitive.

_ Again, you both seem to have very high opinions of yourself and of your influence. This is an anonymous internet forum. Now, I do know a bit about Andy and Alex, and they about me, outside of the cloak of anonymity, but as to the two of you, I do not know anything about you other than your AAAC screen name and what you write. Based on my limited observation, you are an internet bully who thrives under the cloak of anonymity.

_What gives you this idea? My influence? I don't even know what you are talking about. I stated my opinion about Bonds, that's all.

_ Frankly, I had stopped posting for a while in the interchange, which I know thrills you no end, until this thread. Due process is a very important issue to me and so I chimed in. Obviously, you don't care about due process. Fine.

_You seem to be unable to grasp this...I don't need to give due process to Bonds. I'm not in any position to have any influence on the outcome of this trial. It is my personal opinion, and nothing else. Why would your not posting here thrill me? I don't care what you do. Post here all you want.

_ A few final points, and then I will end my posts in this particular thread and you can have the next and last words and call me whatever names make you feel good about yourself or make up whatever character traits help you sleep well at night, I don't really care. If "Yankee Stadium is the House the Ruth Built," then Pac Bell is the Park that Barry built. The success he had, the filled stadiums, they are what led the Giants organization to finally build the team a real baseball stadium. Anyone who has ever attended a night game at Candlestick knows what this means to Giants fans. Willie Mays and Willie McCovey, these are the faces of the Giants, not Barry, but Barry did get us a ballpark and that is something I appreciate, as a Giants fan.
_ 
I would not have called you an idiot if you had not called me one first...oops, sorry...if you had not said you "think I am an idiot." . 
We still have Big Mac land at Busch. There's a street named after McGwire. They still sell his jerseys. I think he cheated too, and if they want to take away his records, fine.

_ Barry Bonds is uniquely hated, by many, and I undestand this. He is a jerk. The problem is no one is being honest about it and admitting that they just hate Barry. It is not about the alleged steroid use. If it was and is, then we know McGuire, Canseco, et al, utilized performance enhancing drugs and their teams won championships. Where is the call to take those away from them, from those teams? I mentioned Steve Howe earlier. Where is the outrage over the Dodger championships? This is personal, about Barry Bonds, and I just wish people would be honest enough to admit this rather than hide behind the inconsistency of the alleged steroid use by Bonds, knowingly.

_I don't hate Barry. I don't think what he did is any different that the actions of McGwire, Canseco, Palmeiro etc. This thread _is_ about Bonds though. If you want to start a thread about any of these other guys, I'll post in it that I think they cheated as well.

_ Our laws were uniquely written to endow rights to the most hated, most villified, most deserving criminals, so as to protect the rights of the innocent. If we start waiving those rights for some then it is just a matter of time before they are waived for all. That is not American.

_See my above comments about how I have no involvement in Barry's trial.


----------



## Akajack (Jun 15, 2007)

this is funny enough to end up in someones signature.



whomewhat said:


> You see, there you go again. I never "called" you an idiot. What I said is exactly this: "I think you are an idiot. I guess based on your I think therefore you are theory you must therefore be one, right?"


----------



## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

whomewhat said:


> Barry Bonds is uniquely hated, by many, and I undestand this. He is a jerk. The problem is no one is being honest about it and admitting that they just hate Barry. It is not about the alleged steroid use. If it was and is, then we know McGuire, Canseco, et al, utilized performance enhancing drugs and their teams won championships. Where is the call to take those away from them, from those teams? I mentioned Steve Howe earlier. Where is the outrage over the Dodger championships? This is personal, about Barry Bonds, and I just wish people would be honest enough to admit this rather than hide behind the inconsistency of the alleged steroid use by Bonds, knowingly.


+1

It's the Clinton syndrome all over again: people who hate him chant "perjury! perjury!", while the rest of us don't give a rat's ass about perjury -- because he lied about a blowjob.

In this case, steroid use is (or at least was) ubiquitous in major league sports, so it's absurd to single out Bonds or any other single player or group of players. If I was sitting on the grand jury I'd find Bonds not guilty, even if I believed he had lied and obstructed justice in this investigation. It's simply unfair to prosecute one or a few guys for lying about something that hundreds or thousands of other professional athletes were also lying about at the time. And it's ridiculous to try and dismantle the last 30+ years of professional sports history to figure out who was taking what, when and where, and which championships/awards/etc should be erased off the books.

But like Clinton, reason is simply lost on most people who can't stand Bonds. They're literally blinded by hatred.


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

This one is too.


----------



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Barry brings it on himself. The Clinton thing was related to political animosity and jealousy.

Bonds is simply a jerk. I don't see it as being close to the Clinton thing.

My gut would love to see him humbled, but in the big picture, I honestly see a lot of politicians wasting time on a few highly visible pro athletes doing steroids so they can score political points.

While I question using government resources to harass Barry Bonds, I still find him contemptible. I totally think he used steroids and by doing so, put unfair pressure on others in his profession to use these potentially deadly substances.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> +1
> 
> It's the Clinton syndrome all over again: people who hate him chant "perjury! perjury!", while the rest of us don't give a rat's ass about perjury -- because he lied about a blowjob.


Why am I willing to bet you do give a rat's ass about Scooter's perjury though? I wish I had the special rule book about who can lie to the Grand Jury and who cannot.


----------



## JDC (Dec 2, 2006)

Wayfarer said:


> Why am I willing to bet you do give a rat's ass about Scooter's perjury though? I wish I had the special rule book about who can lie to the Grand Jury and who cannot.


If you review my post on that subject, I defended Bush's commuting of Libby's prison sentence. Everyone knows Libby was Dick Cheney's fall guy.


----------



## Wayfarer (Mar 19, 2006)

FrankDC said:


> If you review my post on that subject, I defended Bush's commuting of Libby's prison sentence. Everyone knows Libby was Dick Cheney's fall guy.


I will take you at your word, as I'm not looking up the post. I stand corrected then unless new evidence comes up.

For the record, I think perjury is perjury, and apparently so does the Grand Jury.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> Barry brings it on himself. The Clinton thing was related to political animosity and jealousy.
> 
> Bonds is simply a jerk. I don't see it as being close to the Clinton thing.
> 
> ...


Exactly...but if a person flat out says that they want to see Barry punished just because they dont like him, they get all sorts of fingers pointed at them and get called all kinds of un-flattering names...the fact of the matter is that Bonds is the quint-essential arrogant @$$hole, if he were a nicer person, perhaps more people would feel sympathy for him, perhaps less people would be out for blood in this thing...but I know of no less than ten people who have had horrible experiances with this guy just like I did, now he wants our sympathy, after he treated all of us (and how many other children and people with children) like jerks...I hope he rots, and yes, it's just because I dont like the guy...there, I said it...

I could care less about the steroids, I hope he gets ruined just because of what a terrible person he is (it would serve him right)...if Pete Rose can't go to the HOF, neither should Barry...even without jail time, that coward Bud Selig needs to ban him from baseball for life...

...but that's just me...flame away, call me juvenille, call me a racist, call me bitter...you all know the guy's reputation, and if he treated you or one of your children the way he treats everybody else, you'd feel the same way...


----------



## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Exactly...but if a person flat out says that they want to see Barry punished just because they dont like him, they get all sorts of fingers pointed at them and get called all kinds of un-flattering names...the fact of the matter is that Bonds is the quint-essential arrogant @$$hole, if he were a nicer person, perhaps more people would feel sympathy for him, perhaps less people would be out for blood in this thing...but I know of no less than ten people who have had horrible experiances with this guy just like I did, now he wants our sympathy, after he treated all of us (and how many other children and people with children) like jerks...I hope he rots, and yes, it's just because I dont like the guy...there, I said it...
> 
> I could care less about the steroids, I hope he gets ruined just because of what a terrible person he is (it would serve him right)...if Pete Rose can't go to the HOF, neither should Barry...even without jail time, that coward Bud Selig needs to ban him from baseball for life...
> 
> ...but that's just me...flame away, call me juvenille, call me a racist, call me bitter...you all know the guy's reputation, and if he treated you or one of your children the way he treats everybody else, you'd feel the same way...


But, Gabba...what about due process?

It makes me laugh that whomewhat has honored me with this quote: Originally Posted by *Laxplayer* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=657072#post657072 
_As I told the annoying fellow above, it doesn't really matter what I think._


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Laxplayer said:


> But, Gabba...what about due process?
> 
> It makes me laugh that whomewhat has honored me with this quote: Originally Posted by *Laxplayer* https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?p=657072#post657072
> _As I told the annoying fellow above, it doesn't really matter what I think._


oh that's right, I have to give the scumbag his due process because he'll go to jail based on what I think of him right??? Jeez, if my opinion was all it took to throw the guy in jail, he'd never see the light of day again...

LoL...

that's really a great quote...


----------



## jpeirpont (Mar 16, 2004)

The Gabba Goul said:


> Exactly...but if a person flat out says that they want to see Barry punished just because they dont like him, they get all sorts of fingers pointed at them and get called all kinds of un-flattering names...the fact of the matter is that Bonds is the quint-essential arrogant @$$hole, if he were a nicer person, perhaps more people would feel sympathy for him, perhaps less people would be out for blood in this thing...but I know of no less than ten people who have had horrible experiances with this guy just like I did, now he wants our sympathy, after he treated all of us (and how many other children and people with children) like jerks...I hope he rots, and yes, it's just because I dont like the guy...there, I said it...
> 
> I could care less about the steroids, I hope he gets ruined just because of what a terrible person he is (it would serve him right)...if Pete Rose can't go to the HOF, neither should Barry...even without jail time, that coward Bud Selig needs to ban him from baseball for life...
> 
> ...but that's just me...flame away, call me juvenille, call me a racist, call me bitter...you all know the guy's reputation, and if he treated you or one of your children the way he treats everybody else, you'd feel the same way...


Theres no fingers to point. It only matter when people like you are in a position of power. But this post is more my problem than peoples belief that BB should be punished. Americans sense of entitlement are through the roof.


----------



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

Yeah, Barry is kind of a jerk, but that is irrelevant to me. He cheated big time and doesn't deserve the records he "achieved." I'll let the legal process deal with the perjury, though I do agree that lying under oath is a more serious thing than lots of folks seem to think in the post Clinton era. If the indictment paves the way to him eventually being stripped of the records, then I'm all for it. I don't wish prison or any ill will on him in any way. I just think that the players who never used steroids, especially those over the past 15 years, have been screwed by those who did. And I'm more interested in justice for them.


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

jpeirpont said:


> Theres no fingers to point. It only matter when people like you are in a position of power. But this post is more my problem than peoples belief that BB should be punished. Americans sense of entitlement are through the roof.


okay...so, please correct me if I'm wrong...but what you're saying is that if a person lets their own opinions (based on personal experiances) be the basis of what they and they alone would like to see happen to a particular individual, they are displaying a gratuitous (sp?) sense of self entitlement??? Is it because I dislike the guy because he was a dick to me when I was a little kid??? I don't think that's displaying too much of a sense of entitlement...I mean pro athletes signing autographs for little kids is not all that un-heard of, and even if he can't I don't think expecting him to be polite about it is too much to ask...I guess I'm just a typical "ugly American" because I expect those whom *I* helped make a star by buying his merch and attending his games to sign a baseball for a 12 year old kid...I mean, if he really just wanted to be treated like a "normal guy" then perhaps he could have taken a job bagging groceries at Safeway for $10 an hour...as a professional athlete, I believe he should be grateful for his fans who made him what he was...and if he can't handle that, and has to be rude to people (especially children [and trust me, I know plenty of other people who had similar experiances with the guy, so it's not just me]), then he doesnt deserve my sympathy when he gets into trouble...

Never the less...I'm not the one who gets to make the final decision on Barry, but, yes, I do feel I'm entitled to my opinion...I never knew that there was anything wrong with that...

I'm curious...what is your reasoning for why he shouldnt be punished...I mean, putting the fact that he's a jerk aside, it looks like he did indeed commit perjury, so why then should he not face the consequences for his actions??? Is it because you like him??? I guess as long as it's your opinion it's okay right???


----------



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

"I'm curious...what is your reasoning for why he shouldnt be punished...I mean, putting the fact that he's a jerk aside, it looks like he did indeed commit perjury, so why then should he not face the consequences for his actions??? Is it because you like him??? I guess as long as it's your opinion it's okay right???"

Well, isn't it perfectly clear? Lying under oath about the oral ingestion of substances is ok, since it is a private matter. We learned this several years ago. The fact that many men cheat on their wives and many ballplayers take steroids just proves that it is ok to lie about it under oath. Why is this so hard to understand?


----------



## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

Mike Petrik said:


> "I'm curious...what is your reasoning for why he shouldnt be punished...I mean, putting the fact that he's a jerk aside, it looks like he did indeed commit perjury, so why then should he not face the consequences for his actions??? Is it because you like him??? I guess as long as it's your opinion it's okay right???"
> 
> Well, isn't it perfectly clear? Lying under oath about the oral ingestion of substances is ok, since it is a private matter. We learned this several years ago. The fact that many men cheat on their wives and many ballplayers take steroids just proves that it is ok to lie about it under oath. Why is this so hard to understand?


oh of course...how painfully _American_ of me to think that people should be held accountable for their bad behavior...


----------



## Mike Petrik (Jul 5, 2005)

The Gabba Goul said:


> oh of course...how painfully _American_ of me to think that people should be held accountable for their bad behavior...


Not at all! If everyone does it then it can't be that bad.

Look, the logic is simple:
You are a good person; you do something; ergo, that something must be a perfectly good thing to do.


----------

