# RightToWork



## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

"No matter the limitations or 'burdens' a legislative enactment places on the collective bargaining process, collective bargaining remains a creation of legislative grace and not constitutional obligation," Justice Michael Gableman wrote for the majority.
The high court ruled in a lawsuit filed by the Madison teachers union and a union representing Milwaukee public workers. They had argued that the law, which came to be known as Act 10, violated workers' constitutional rights to free assembly and equal protection.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Washington , is not a right to work state and was today informed that she is out of the running for the new Telsa plant.



> State officials say Washington competed to win a massive battery factory for Tesla Motors electric cars, but didn't make the list of finalists.
> New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Nevada and California are in the running for Tesla's planned multi-billion-dollar battery plant.
> KPLU reports (https://is.gd/tCzjTC ) that Washington's Commerce Department confirmed it tried to land the factory with an "aggressive effort" that included the personal involvement of Gov. Jay Inslee.
> Tesla describes the plant as a "gigafactory" that could employ more than 6,000 people and produce enough batteries by 2020 to allow the company to make 500,000 cars a year.
> Inslee's office says the state does plan to compete for future Tesla jobs.


https://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2024156583_apxwashingtonstatetesla.html___


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## Shaver (May 2, 2012)

I half expected this to be a thread about the group Chelsea......


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Sometimes it isn't even about the union.

Beretta, moving production out of Md., joins gunmakers heading to friendlier states

During nearly 40 years making guns in southern Prince George’s County, Beretta USA has endured a complicated relationship with a state dominated by Democratic lawmakers and left-leaning voters* who don’t usually embrace the famous gunmaker’s products.
“Some people considered the factory a good source of jobs,” said Kelly Canavan, a longtime resident and local activist in Accokeek*, Md., the company’s home since 1977. “But a lot of other people have been disturbed that this huge gun factory is right here, extremely close to a lot of children and families.”



Children and families that get to work in a casino now, instead of the gun factory.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Hitch said:


> Washington , is not a right to work state and was today informed that she is out of the running for the new Telsa plant._


Washington, which has only a so-so baseball team, was today informed that she is out of the running for the new Tesla plant.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Each state will soon start to figure it out. Businesses will go where they are welcomed. The age of the labor unions are over. If not for public sector unions, the entire movement would be dead.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> Each state will soon start to figure it out. Businesses will go where they are welcomed. The age of the labor unions are over. If not for public sector unions, the entire movement would be dead.


I don't know about that. Alden employs union laborers and I doubt they'll pick up and move anytime soon. plus, the demand, and with it the cost, for Alden shoes continues to rise. As long as this continues, Alden's union employees will have jobs for a very long time.

as for my stance on unions, i'm neither for or against unions but am firmly entrenched in the middle regarding this issue. there are aspects of unionizing that I dislike, but I also see the benefits of unions in today's work force. what I dislike is the constant demonizing of unions as greedy, good for nothing, lazy workers who want to stifle business. I think it's the exact opposite. unions push for better, liveable wages and working conditions for their workers. one need only look to businesses like Costco who pay their workers decent wages and are pro-union, versus businesses like Target and Walmart who underpay their workers and are anti-union. there's a reason why Costco has become one of the most profitable companies in the US, compared to Target and Walmart who are losing money.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

Shaver said:


> I half expected this to be a thread about the group Chelsea......


I think it is about "The Race to the Bottom "with local example - Badiddlyboing, Odawidaho neck of the woods.

Probably all have the sort " gold-plated pensions that other workers can only dream of" beloved of the Daily Mail or it's US equivalent.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

gaseousclay said:


> I don't know about that. Alden employs union laborers and I doubt they'll pick up and move anytime soon. plus, the demand, and with it the cost, for Alden shoes continues to rise. As long as this continues, Alden's union employees will have jobs for a very long time.
> 
> as for my stance on unions, i'm neither for or against unions but am firmly entrenched in the middle regarding this issue. there are aspects of unionizing that I dislike, but I also see the benefits of unions in today's work force. what I dislike is the constant demonizing of unions as greedy, good for nothing, lazy workers who want to stifle business. I think it's the exact opposite. unions push for better, liveable wages and working conditions for their workers. one need only look to businesses like Costco who pay their workers decent wages and are pro-union, versus businesses like Target and Walmart who underpay their workers and are anti-union. there's a reason why Costco has become one of the most profitable companies in the US, compared to Target and Walmart who are losing money.


There is no such thing as under vs. over pay vs. decent wage. Anyone can argue that any amount of money paid to any employee falls within any of those criteria as there is nothing objective to compare it too. I suppose one can say the federal minimum wage, but then that's arbitrary.

Employees are paid according to what the employer thinks the employees labor is worth in the overall production of goods and services.

As for Alden, those are niche industries and those who buy Alden shoes would likely think twice if they shipped off shore to Puerto Rico or Mexico. A television, dishwasher, mattress, other items of clothing (including many shoes like Cole Haan) have already done so and they seem to be doing just fine.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Peak and Pine said:


> Washington, which has only a so-so baseball team, was today informed that she is out of the running for the new Tesla plant.


Yeah but THEM Hawks!!


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

A labor dispute at the Port of Vancouver, Wash., that has locked out longshore union members for more than a year appears to have taken an aggressive and disturbing turn, with accusations of menacing confrontations and violent threats. 
Members of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU) Local 4 have been accused of violently approaching security officers and harassing workers at the export terminal for United Grain Corp. at the Port of Vancouver, Wash., which is across the Columbia River from Portland, Ore.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/...in-washington-port-dispute/?intcmp=latestnews

Washington governor's response;

ay Inslee's decision* to remove state police protection from state **grain inspectors*-who had been crossing a union picket line to do their jobs at the Port of Vancouver-has brought a billion dollar industry to a virtual standstill. The picket line was formed by the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (Longshoremen) after being locked out in early 2013 due to failed contract negotiations with United Grain Co., an "agro-industrial company that provides handling and marketing of grains" and operates "one of the largest ship-loading facilities on the West Coast."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/31/labor-war-longshore-union-shows-aggression-in-washington-port-dispute/?intcmp=latestnews

In preparation for the assault on Guadalcanal the USN was forced to call in the Marines to make sure the ISA could not disrupt the loading/off loading of military sea craft.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> There is no such thing as under vs. over pay vs. decent wage. Anyone can argue that any amount of money paid to any employee falls within any of those criteria as there is nothing objective to compare it too. I suppose one can say the federal minimum wage, but then that's arbitrary.


I did also say 'liveable wage' which means being able to support one's self/family while also being able to enjoy goods & services that drive our economy. Those that work menial jobs often can't afford to do either and thus, have to rely on the very government hand outs that Conservatives are against. So how is someone supposed to work hard and achieve the American Dream if there's virtually no chance of being lifted out of poverty? Should a worker basically continue to work as an indentured servant because of their socio-economic status in life? How is it that some companies have no problem laying off wage workers while continuing to pay their CEO's millions of dollars?



> Employees are paid according to what the employer thinks the employees labor is worth in the overall production of goods and services.


'Thinks' being the key word here. Are you applying the same arbitrary standard here that you believe the Feds apply to the minimum wage? To put things into perspective, Targets starting wage is $8.75 per hour. Costcos starting wage is $11.50 per hour. Both are mega corporations worth billions. My employer pays new workers $12 per hour starting wage in a company with less than 10 people. The reason why Target has a high turnover rate is obvious, they pay crap wages. But why would they care when they could easily hire somebody with a torso and limbs to do the same crappy job for the same pay. Rinse and repeat. Costco retains their employees because their wages go up which is an incentive. A happy worker is a productive worker. Likewise with my boss, he refuses to pay new hires wages that they can't live off of.



> As for Alden, those are niche industries and those who buy Alden shoes would likely think twice if they shipped off shore to Puerto Rico or Mexico. A television, dishwasher, mattress, other items of clothing (including many shoes like Cole Haan) have already done so and they seem to be doing just fine.


Alden probably would lose business if they off shored labor. As for other consumer goods, it seems to me that more companies are reverting back to Made In The USA, not only as a marketing tool but also as a means to boost the economy and create jobs. I don't even think companies like Cole Haan are doing well. A Cole Haan store opened not long ago in one of the wealthier shopping districts in town and surprise, they have since closed that store down. We'll never be rid of goods made overseas but I think consumers are starting to wise up about what things they're willing to pay extra for. Would I pay $50 for athletic socks because they were made in the US? Probably not, but I might consider paying more for dress socks if there was something unique about them (ie. fabric, pattern, etc).


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

gaseousclay said:


> I did also say 'liveable wage' which means being able to support one's self/family while also being able to enjoy goods & services that drive our economy. Those that work menial jobs often can't afford to do either and thus, have to rely on the very government hand outs that Conservatives are against. So how is someone supposed to work hard and achieve the American Dream if there's virtually no chance of being lifted out of poverty? Should a worker basically continue to work as an indentured servant because of their socio-economic status in life? How is it that some companies have no problem laying off wage workers while continuing to pay their CEO's millions of dollars?
> 
> 'Thinks' being the key word here. Are you applying the same arbitrary standard here that you believe the Feds apply to the minimum wage? To put things into perspective, Targets starting wage is $8.75 per hour. Costcos starting wage is $11.50 per hour. Both are mega corporations worth billions. My employer pays new workers $12 per hour starting wage in a company with less than 10 people. The reason why Target has a high turnover rate is obvious, they pay crap wages. But why would they care when they could easily hire somebody with a torso and limbs to do the same crappy job for the same pay. Rinse and repeat. Costco retains their employees because their wages go up which is an incentive. A happy worker is a productive worker. Likewise with my boss, he refuses to pay new hires wages that they can't live off of.
> 
> Alden probably would lose business if they off shored labor. As for other consumer goods, it seems to me that more companies are reverting back to Made In The USA, not only as a marketing tool but also as a means to boost the economy and create jobs. I don't even think companies like Cole Haan are doing well. A Cole Haan store opened not long ago in one of the wealthier shopping districts in town and surprise, they have since closed that store down. We'll never be rid of goods made overseas but I think consumers are starting to wise up about what things they're willing to pay extra for. Would I pay $50 for athletic socks because they were made in the US? Probably not, but I might consider paying more for dress socks if there was something unique about them (ie. fabric, pattern, etc).


Businesses will do what they think is in their best interest. Sometimes they may get it wrong and if they do it too often their customers, share holders and the market will punish them. Where they do business is none of my concern. It may factor into someone's choice and that's a calculus companies make.

As for wages, I really don't care what a CEO makes vs. his employees. Companies pay a salary or wages they think is appropriate given the expected return on investment. Labor is overhead just like a lease and equipment.

As for a "living wage" I'm not sure what that means. Maybe they should get 2 jobs. Maybe they need to pinch the belt and get rid of TV, cell phones and the car and take public transport. People have options and the American dream is different things to different people. Work hard and put the kids through school so one day they can be the CEO. It's not something achieved in one generation.


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## Kingstonian (Dec 23, 2007)

SG_67 said:


> . People have options and the American dream is different things to different people. Work hard and put the kids through school so one day they can be the CEO. It's not something achieved in one generation.


" It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

Globalisation/outsourcing does not help the average American citizen. It is against his interest. Paleoconservatives got that right.

What you have at the moment is serfs ruled by oligarchs.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

gaseousclay said:


> I did also say 'liveable wage' which means being able to support one's self/family while also being able to enjoy goods & services that drive our economy. Those that work menial jobs often can't afford to do either and thus, have to rely on the very government hand outs that Conservatives are against. So how is someone supposed to work hard and achieve the American Dream if there's virtually no chance of being lifted out of poverty?


 You have noticed on the news recently that thousands of folks cross the border to get INTO the US, many do so knowing their chosen methed violates the law. Would you suppose they are all somehow unaware of the obvious truth of your complaint ?


> Should a worker basically continue to work as an indentured servant because of their socio-economic status in life?


I know quite a few people, but I dont know anyone this could be applied to, do you know one?


> How is it that some companies have no problem laying off wage workers while continuing to pay their CEO's millions of dollars?
> 
> .


Despite government intrusion market forces set the true price of everything, widgets labor and interest. This is where the real trouble with unions incubates. Unions ,especially government employee unions, oppose the basic right of free assembly and association and do all they can, legal or not , to impose their will on workers and the general public. This is accomplished through government enforced mandatory union membership and other forms of official pandering. It is nothing more than corporate welfare and has similar effects.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Unfortunately, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

1) WA pursued Tesla. It was not on Tesla's list of potential locations.
2) One of the prime considerations for locations was abundant sunlight for the factory's planned solar arrays. (The "Evergreen State" is not the first to come to mind in that respect.)
3) Nevada (where Tesla has broken ground) has lithium mines and commercially viable deposits. 

....but go ahead and attribute their decision to whatever factor you please.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

It's unfortunate that corporate USA continues to allow CEOs and other C-level staff to abuse the confidence of investors and lower-level staff by drawing extortionate salaries and setting up grossly extravagant feather beds to land in once they are canned. And it's not just me who feels this way; I know several recent C-level retirees who say their retirement or severance packages were unreasonably generous. 

They were not so conscientious, though, as to refuse them. :tongue2:


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Unfortunately, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.
> 
> 1) WA pursued Tesla. It was not on Tesla's list of potential locations.


 LOL Accoriding to that famous right wing news organization Oregon Public Broadcasting;John Boyd, a consultant in New Jersey who helps companies decide where to locate facilities, called the factory the most "coveted economic development project in North America today."So you can imagine states salivating to land this mega project - states like Washington, where Inslee has made alternative energy and green manufacturing top priorities.
"We will not pass up a golden opportunity to create jobs across this state, we need these clean energy jobs that work for the long haul," the Democratic governor said, at his inaugural address last year.
That golden opportunity appears to have arrived last fall - at least briefly. That's when Tesla gave Washington the opportunity to compete for the gigafactory.
The Washington Department of Commerce said it mounted an aggressive effort that included the personal involvement of Inslee.
Several locations on both sides of the Cascades were considered.

You're right about one thing , WA did court Telsa with the personal involvement of the governor, that is the point. 



> 2) One of the prime considerations for locations was abundant sunlight for the factory's planned solar arrays. (The "Evergreen State" is not the first to come to mind in that respect.)


 Moses Lake, WA, gets 8 inches of rain per year. The US average is 37. Snowfall is 13 inches. The average US city gets 25 inches of snow per year. The number of days with any measurable precipitation is 68.
On average, there are *194 sunny days (Seattle 58) *per year in Moses Lake, WA.


> 3) Nevada (where Tesla has broken ground) has lithium mines and commercially viable deposits.
> 
> ....but go ahead and attribute their decision to whatever factor you please.


Site consultant Boyd, who has worked extensively in Washington, said the state had a lot to offer Tesla - including low-cost energy. Also, Moses Lake is already home to a carbon fiber factory for BMW electric cars."So there's a precedent for green-friendly auto-manufacturing today in Washington state," said Boyd, who does not work with Tesla.

He said there are also some perceived business climate disadvantages based on Boeing's experience in the state.

"Number one, it's not a right-to-work state," Boyd said. "And this issue of contentious labor-management relations - with disputes with unions and work stoppages - that's something that will make Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla, cautious about investing in Washington state because of his experience in California."

But seriously we cant believe that Boyd has even a tenth of the knowledge of the situation that you keep under your cleverly pointed hat.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

This is not to pick a fight with anyone, but for the crowd bemoaning the disparity in pay between CEOs and rank and file, I'm wondering how you feel about:

1) athletes with 8-9 figure salaries when the kids tossing peanuts or checking tickets at the gate is making so little

2) actors and actresses who can command 30-40 million (plus residuals) when the guy who cleans the bathrooms in the studio or set may make minimum wage. 

CEOs seem to catch the brunt of criticism in wage disparity from many on the left yet there is wage disparity all around us.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> This is not to pick a fight with anyone, but for the crowd bemoaning the disparity in pay between CEOs and rank and file, I'm wondering how you feel about:
> 
> 1) athletes with 8-9 figure salaries when the kids tossing peanuts or checking tickets at the gate is making so little
> 
> ...


The examples you cite are of individuals receiving free-market value for their services. In the corporate boardroom, unfortunately it's an Old Boys' Club in which an oligarchy sits around like a cartel and decides what one another will be paid. Apples and oranges in my view.

(Do I think top actors and athletes are "worth" what they're paid? Of course not, but then again I don't think mechanical Swiss watches are "worth" their price tag, either.)


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ so then you would be in favor of large CEO compensation packages if they we're determined in a different way? 

Does this account for every CEO? what if he actually does a good job and produces wealth for the shareholders?


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> ^ so then you would be in favor of large CEO compensation packages if they we're determined in a different way?
> 
> Does this account for every CEO? what if he actually does a good job and produces wealth for the shareholders?


Unfortunately, few CEOs produce wealth for shareholders. A great many of them create wealth for one another, which is the kernel of my complaint. I don't suggest government action to change things, though.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ I don't doubt that there are CEOs of companies that are poor managers. If that's the case, if one is a shareholder one can either divest himself of his shares or vote. 

In the end, if a company fails to perform as indicated, especially if it is a publicly traded company, the management team is "restructured". This happens all the time. 

What I don't like is the demonization of business by politicians in order to produce a desired political outcome.


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## 32rollandrock (May 1, 2008)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> Unfortunately, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.
> 
> 1) WA pursued Tesla. It was not on Tesla's list of potential locations.
> 2) One of the prime considerations for locations was abundant sunlight for the factory's planned solar arrays. (The "Evergreen State" is not the first to come to mind in that respect.)
> ...


This.

But beyond this, those who pooh pooh the growing wage disparity in this nation and concentration of wealth at the very top do so at their peril. Never in human history has a nation or society been able to sustain this sort of economic disparity without it all crashing to an end, and for very obvious reasons. No one can predict when or exactly how, but at some point, the 99 percent are going to succeed in their WTF arguments if it keeps going like it is going. The privileged class would do well to follow the example of Henry Ford, but even he could not by himself turn the tide with a $5 daily wage that was astronomically high at the time (and yes, I know that Ford was a union buster, or at least, tried to be).


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Hitch said:


> "No matter the limitations or 'burdens' a legislative enactment places on the collective bargaining process, collective bargaining remains a creation of legislative grace and not constitutional obligation," Justice Michael Gableman wrote for the majority.
> The high court ruled in a lawsuit filed by the Madison teachers union and a union representing Milwaukee public workers. They had argued that the law, which came to be known as Act 10, violated workers' constitutional rights to free assembly and equal protection.


The Wisconsin Supreme Court on Thursday by a 5-2 majority upheld Republican Gov. Scott Walker's collective-bargaining reforms in toto, and labor's reaction to the ruling has been relatively mute.
The justices were the unions' final chance to block the 2011 law, which banned non-safety government workers from collectively bargaining over non-wage matters. The reforms also prohibited automatic dues deductions and required workers to recertify their union every year. While a Dane County Circuit judge in 2012 struck down portions of the law, the Seventh Circuit of Appeals has upheld the reforms in their entirety. Wisconsin's Supreme Court indicated its leanings last year by reversing the Dane County judge's contempt-of-court order against the governor for enforcing the law.
Unions had sought to tilt the court in their favor by ousting Republican-appointed Justice David Prosser, who was up for re-election in 2011. Justice Prosser won a second term, though the collective-bargaining case did not ultimately hinge on his victory. Mr. Walker's reforms also triggered labor-backed recall elections against several Republican state senators and the governor in 2011 and 2012

Yet curiously, the reforms aren't playing a major role in this year's election. Democrats hand-picked Mary Burke, a former executive of Wisconsin-based Trek Bicycles, to challenge the governor because of her business background. While Ms. Burke has said she supports allowing government workers to collectively bargain for government workers, she's not campaigning to repeal the law. After the state Supreme Court ruling, Ms. Burke said she plans to keep her focus on jobs and the economy.
Unions spent three years trying to block the reforms but repeatedly failed. The public appears content that the reforms are here to stay. Democratic governance hasn't been destroyed as unions once warned.:biggrin: In fact, the political climate in Madison has mellowed as labor groups have lost clout*. The Wisconsin Education Association Council's membership has declined by a third since the reforms passed*. What's more, the reforms are saving local and state governments money. No wonder Ms. Burke isn't campaigning for repeal.

https://online.wsj.com/articles/political-diary-scott-walker-winsagain-1406921198

Emphasis added.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> This is not to pick a fight with anyone, but for the crowd bemoaning the disparity in pay between CEOs and rank and file, I'm wondering how you feel about:
> 
> 1) athletes with 8-9 figure salaries when the kids tossing peanuts or checking tickets at the gate is making so little
> 
> ...


I don't know that that's a fair comparison. celebrities, whether they be actors or athletes, do sometimes supplement their incomes through endorsement deals. they are what makes a film/tv show/sporting event/product successul. A-list actors may receive ridiculously high salaries but when you look at the worldwide box office income generated from their movies, it's worth it. It's all about the studio's ability to make money and some actors are able to do this through their celebrity. the last time I checked the Screen Actors Guild was Union. This means those that help make the movies are paid a good wage and the actors that make money for the film studio make a good wage, otherwise, the studios would try to exploit everyone and reap the lion's share of profits. it's called leverage. likewise with athletes. you go to a game because of the players on the team, whether they're winning or losing.

Target's former CEO, Greg Steinhafel, was recently canned because of a data breach that affected 40 million customers, myself included. his severance package? $15.9 million. on what planet does a CEO receive a $15.9 million dollar severance package when a major data breach occured under his watch? this I find obscene. this is corporate culture rewarding it's employees for doing a crappy job


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ What about when a big movie flops? Or when the highest paid player in any game fails to bring home the title for the team. What about when A-Rod doesn't produce as he's expected to. 

No one is suggesting that CEO's are infallible. No one is saying that their are those that are incompetent or at best, ill suited for a particular company/industry. Compensation packages are agreed upon between the CEO and the board. One can always find a CEO worthy of criticism, but what about when they actually produce wealth for the shareholders. 

Actually, if one looks at the growth chart for Target during his tenure, EPS went from around $3.40 to $4.50 and he shepherded the company through the great recession. The stock price was higher when he left then when he arrived, even after the hit taken due to the data breach. 

I'm not making excuses for him, as I too was affected by the breach. But I think it goes to show just how vulnerable CEO's of large companies can be.


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## Joseph Peter (Mar 26, 2012)

Tough issue, this union stuff. When I (age 51) think of unions, I think of the one I belonged to for a short while while working in a factory: the AFL-CIO. Never did a damn thing for me but to be hired at the plant, I had to agree to them reaching into my paycheck every two weeks. I also think that the Union did indeed make the factory safer than it otherwise would have been. UAW, during its time, did great things for auto workers re hours, benefits, and safety...but I dont see how they are necessary, for example, to the success of probation officers in Wisconsin or teachers in that stellar system known as the Chicago Public Schools. I dont "get" how the iron workers can be equated with probation officers. But there it is anyway.

As for the pay disparity, who are we going to put in charge of devising the formula to bring "balance" to what the CEO, 3rd baseman of the Red Sox, pick-your-favorite-footballer, or Brad Pitt earns vs the assembly line worker? Is the key grip or makeup artist on Brad Pitt's movie making money appropriate to what he earns? 

Personally, as some one who graduated high school in 1981, the handwriting was on the wall even during the Ford administration: if you wanted a chance of taking care of yourself and your family, best forgo the weekends at the local bar with those who gave up during junior or senior year and spend some of them in library. Carrying on Dad's tradition of working in the steel mill was probably not going to work out very well. Going to school was and is the only way to have a chance...emphasis on chance unless fortune smiled on you.


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## WouldaShoulda (Aug 5, 2009)

Joseph Peter said:


> Personally, as some one who graduated high school in 1981, the handwriting was on the wall even during the Ford administration: if you wanted a chance of taking care of yourself and your family, best forgo the weekends at the local bar with those who gave up during junior or senior year and spend some of them in library. Carrying on Dad's tradition of working in the steel mill was probably not going to work out very well. Going to school was and is the only way to have a chance...emphasis on chance unless fortune smiled on you.


My Hometown; Born in the USA 1985;

Now Main Street's whitewashed windows and vacant stores
Seems like there ain't nobody wants to come down here no more
They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks
Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back to your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown
Last night me and Kate we laid in bed
talking about getting out
Packing up our bags maybe heading south
I'm thirty-five we got a boy of our own now
Last night I sat him up behind the wheel and said son take a good look around
This is your hometown

Read more: Bruce Springsteen - My Hometown Lyrics | MetroLyrics 
​


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

If you could take all the CEOs in the country and add up all of their annual income and locate the sources you would find that not single dollar came from your pocket unwillingly.

I doubt anyone on the forums makes in a year what Bill Gates makes in a day. Yet not one penny was stolen. Gates got rich meeting needs and along the way made hundreds if not thousands of new millionaires. If Gates has any of your money it is because you freely traded your cash for something he was selling. The same way its done at Target,Cosco,Walmart anywhere the free market is open.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Hitch said:


> If you could take all the CEOs in the country and add up all of their annual income and locate the sources you would find that not single dollar came from your pocket unwillingly.
> 
> I doubt anyone on the forums makes in a year what Bill Gates makes in a day. Yet not one penny was stolen. Gates got rich meeting needs and along the way made hundreds if not thousands of new millionaires. If Gates has any of your money it is because you freely traded your cash for something he was selling. The same way its done at Target,Cosco,Walmart anywhere the free market is open.


The CEOs aren't doing the selling, Hitch. I'd be a lot more favorably disposed toward their salaries, frankly, if they were.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

I doubt if you could be more wrong Max.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Hitch said:


> I doubt if you could be more wrong Max.


Ha! When was the last time a CEO made a sales call to you?

Never, right? Thought so.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

MaxBuck said:


> Ha! When was the last time a CEO made a sales call to you?
> 
> Never, right? Thought so.


And he can vote.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> ^ What about when a big movie flops? Or when the highest paid player in any game fails to bring home the title for the team. What about when A-Rod doesn't produce as he's expected to.
> 
> No one is suggesting that CEO's are infallible. No one is saying that their are those that are incompetent or at best, ill suited for a particular company/industry. Compensation packages are agreed upon between the CEO and the board. One can always find a CEO worthy of criticism, but what about when they actually produce wealth for the shareholders.
> 
> ...


Good points. My guess would be that when it comes to celebs, studios/agents/teams look at the aggregate performance of a particular person and their ability to put people in seats. Are all Tom Cruise movies successful? Probably not, but he has a pretty good box office return on his films where studios are willing to guarantee a specific salary. Same goes for George Clooney. He's openly stated a lot of his films lose the studios money, but he's also made a fair share that do.

CEO's have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders, but their payout sometimes seems off kilter, especially when a company performs poorly. I believe the CEO of Costco actually took a pay cut and gave his employees a raise during the recession if memory serves me correctly. Should CEO's make peanut wages? Of course not. I guess I look at investing in your workers as a benefit and better for business in the long term. It's a complicated issue for sure


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

^ the board actually has a fiduciary responsibility. They hire the CEO and salary, benefits and whatever "golden parachute" there may be is negotiated. 

That doesn't mean that there are some CEOs that aren't lousy or that have not been able to keep up with the demands of a changing market.  But then, listen to the news and you'll see CEOs leaving or being let go quite often.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

Hitch said:


> And he can vote.


And he does. Every single election since he turned 18.


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## Traser (Jan 10, 2013)

minimum wage in UK £6.31 per hour
Living Wage in UK £7.65 per hour (as set by the independent Living Wage Foundation)

Allowing private companies to pay the market rate reduces salary levels in a race to the bottom. It's these private companies (often multi-national) who pay workers the minimum wage but pay their chief-executives in mega-bucks!

The real issue is the working poor: people who are in work but paid so little that their wages from the private employer are supplemented by social security benefits and housing benefits. Make these employers pay their employees the Living Wage and stop the state subsidising the private sector.

It's not a matter of 'getting two jobs' as a poster above suggests. Some of these folks have to work three or four of these jobs because part-time, low-paid work is all they can get.

Try reading "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich if you fancy a descent into the non-unionised world of low-wage working life.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Traser said:


> minimum wage in UK £6.31 per hour
> Living Wage in UK £7.65 per hour (as set by the independent Living Wage Foundation)
> 
> Allowing private companies to pay the market rate reduces salary levels in a race to the bottom. It's these private companies (often multi-national) who pay workers the minimum wage but pay their chief-executives in mega-bucks!
> ...


I don't presume to know how things work in the UK. The laws governing employment are probably different.

In any competitive system there are going to be those that are better compensated than others. Low wages are usually the product of low skilled labor. In this country, there is a lack of skilled labor for certain tech jobs (machine operators, etc.). Labor dynamics and the economics of labor are a difficult thing to gauge, predict and to control.

Here in the states, there is a movement to increase fast food workers' wages to $15/hr. Attempts to arbitrarily raise the minimum wage, or increase sector wages, make no sense whatsoever. As long as there is a large pool of unskilled labor ready to fill certain jobs in any economy, the wages for those jobs will remain low. To artificially raise wages by fiat can also lead to inflation. Something to consider.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

Traser said:


> minimum wage in UK £6.31 per hour
> Living Wage in UK £7.65 per hour (as set by the independent Living Wage Foundation)
> 
> Allowing private companies to pay the market rate reduces salary levels in a race to the bottom. It's these private companies (often multi-national) who pay workers the minimum wage but pay their chief-executives in mega-bucks!
> ...


 To do so by having the government set the price for labor is a contradiction in terms


> It's not a matter of 'getting two jobs' as a poster above suggests. Some of these folks have to work three or four of these jobs because part-time, low-paid work is all they can get.


 The reality here is that better than 97% of labor is paid above the minimum. While union membership had been in decline for decades


> Try reading "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich if you fancy a descent into the non-unionised world of low-wage working life.


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## MaxBuck (Apr 4, 2013)

SG_67 said:


> Here in the states, there is a movement to increase fast food workers' wages to $15/hr. Attempts to arbitrarily raise the minimum wage, or increase sector wages, make no sense whatsoever.


It might make sense in an attempt to reduce obesity.

j/k.


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## gaseousclay (Nov 8, 2009)

SG_67 said:


> I don't presume to know how things work in the UK. The laws governing employment are probably different.
> 
> In any competitive system there are going to be those that are better compensated than others. Low wages are usually the product of low skilled labor. In this country, there is a lack of skilled labor for certain tech jobs (machine operators, etc.). Labor dynamics and the economics of labor are a difficult thing to gauge, predict and to control.
> 
> Here in the states, there is a movement to increase fast food workers' wages to $15/hr. Attempts to arbitrarily raise the minimum wage, or increase sector wages, make no sense whatsoever. As long as there is a large pool of unskilled labor ready to fill certain jobs in any economy, the wages for those jobs will remain low. To artificially raise wages by fiat can also lead to inflation. Something to consider.


I don't know that it's arbitrary to raise the minimum wage. The thinking is that someone making $12/hr is better off than someone making $7/hr (or whatever min wage is). Pretty obvious. we're all subsidizing low wage workers whether we like it or not.


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## Hitch (Apr 25, 2012)

gaseousclay said:


> I don't know that it's arbitrary to raise the minimum wage. The thinking is that someone making $12/hr is better off than someone making $7/hr (or whatever min wage is). Pretty obvious. we're all subsidizing low wage workers whether we like it or not.


Any price set by extra market forces is arbitrary.

The thinking is that someone making $50/hr is better off than someone making $45/hr.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

gaseousclay said:


> I don't know that it's arbitrary to raise the minimum wage. The thinking is that someone making $12/hr is better off than someone making $7/hr (or whatever min wage is). Pretty obvious. we're all subsidizing low wage workers whether we like it or not.


The question is do we subsidize it by paying for social services or paying higher prices for goods and services. Obviously wages across the economy that are too low lead to deflation. But that's not the case for our economy, as a whole.

An economist and I were discussing France once. He mentioned the odd hiring and firing practices of the French. They are either employed for life or chronically unemployed. I realize this is a different matter than a minimum wage, but it's still an example of how policy can affect markets.


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## NoahNY (Sep 2, 2014)

Let's not forget Boeing and their travails in _leaving _ Wa.


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