# Young guys in suits



## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

Here's something I've been thinking about today. It seems that most of the younger (<26 or so) guys wearing suits just look "wrong" for some reason. Every time I'd see a guy on campus in the business school wear a suit to class he'd just look wrong (not the wearing of the suit, but the guy in the suit). I also noticed that my dad looks noticeably better than I do even when wearing a suit/shirt/tie that are, for all practical purposes, equivalent to what I'm wearing. Sealing the deal were the previews for that new Wall Street movie in which Shia Lebouf looks absolutely ridiculous every time he puts on a suit, as seen here: https://www.accidentalsexiness.com/...abeouf-wall-street-092009/34287pcn_shia01.jpg. I have the same feeling when I see young actors on TV, for example Zac Efron on The Tonight Show, I'm pretty sure he spends a decent amount of money on his clothes yet he still looked "off" to me. On the other hand, guys around our age but who are taller and look a little older (ex. Chace Crawford) look perfectly normal.

Does anyone else notice this? Is it all in my head because I'm just used to seeing people my age in shorts and t-shirt? Let me know what your thoughts are on this.


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## Bog (May 13, 2007)

Simple. Young guys typically wear the cheapest of suits and/or don't know how to find good fitting suits at low prices.


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## ExpertiseInNone (Nov 5, 2008)

Well most young guys who are wearing suits that are usually poorly fitted. The photo is in the linked URL looks like it's too small and short for him. The celebrity crowd tends to get their suits from the trendy pages of the fashion world, and the students who are on campus in suits tend not to have a care in the world about what kind of suit they are wearing. Donning a suit for most kids is already an accomplishment on its own. 

I am not a hundred percent sure about the cheap argument because cheap suits can look better than bespoke suits, but students tend to buy suits based on need and on short notice rather than necessity and in advance. Aside from basic fit (which I can attest to is usually not even fulfilled), most students could care less about tailoring and its benefits.

But I have seen young people wear suits properly, and I do not think its at all bad.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

The problem is not that they are wearing suits, but the suits they are wearing, and how they wear them.

The photo you link to shows a very ill-fitting suit... quite likely another victim of the dreadful "fashion forward" trend of poorly cut, short, tight suits.

And, indeed, there is a rather strong possibility that a cheap suit will _look like_ a cheap suit, if one wears one.

Also, if the wearer is not comfortable in a suit... not able to "make it his".. that discomfort will show.

Here is a 26 year old wearing a suit that fits him, and who is comfortable wearing it:


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## Edinburgh Lad (May 11, 2010)

Young guys can still buy less expensive suits that don't look cheap. The right fit is a must and the ability to look comfortable when wearing a suit is essential. Mix and match shirt & tie color carfully and of couse wear braces/suspenders so the pants hang correct.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

I was in the bank today. The branch I happened to be in was on one of the wealthiest boulevards in one of the world's wealthiest communities. As to be expected, the interior was comfortably appointed and the staff were all courteous and efficient. 
I noticed how much more professional the young tellers appeared, as compared to the tellers at other branches of the same bank. 

The young man who waited on me was wearing a well fitted blazer; the colors of his clothing were well chosen, and his grooming was impeccably attended to. 
He cut a flawless image.... until I reached his window and saw the shine of the overhead lights reflecting off his jacket shoulders. 
The one simple flaw of wearing a polyester jacket had completely ruined an otherwise well put together image that he had clearly worked diligently at.

One needn't wear expensive clothing to look good, but blatantly cheap clothing, no matter how well fitted, is all too likely to betray the wearer!


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## Baldwin (Jun 29, 2010)

I agree with the last few lines. A young man in a suit is a contradictory statement. That is why they look odd. I remember Shia Lebouf playing roles as a shaggy, goofy teen/young adult. Seeing him with a determined focus, a copy of the Wall Street Journal, in a suit wielding a cigarette will always look off even if the suit were made by the finest Saville tailor. To his credit, the pocket square appears as a modest strip of white and some of the cuff of the shirt is visible.

Prince William's cuffs are too long, though the cut of the suit is more traditional.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Baldwin said:


> A young man in a suit is a contradictory statement. That is why they look odd. I remember Shia Lebouf playing roles as a shaggy, goofy teen/young adult. Seeing him with a determined focus, a copy of the Wall Street Journal, in a suit wielding a cigarette will always look off even if the suit were made by the finest Saville tailor.


 I would have to disagree quite adamantly. There is nothing at all contradictory about a young man in a suit, if the suit fits well and the young man wears it well. Neither can be said about young Lebouf in the linked photo.


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## VA540 (Dec 15, 2009)

Palo Alto or Menlo Park? Atherton doesn't have boulevards.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

Regarding the photo of Shia Lebouf: it looks like his mother has dressed him, hence he looks like a young boy trying to play an adult, which creates a dissonance. I think there is too much contrivance in the ensemble.

Regarding the other young celebrities that have been mentioned: their hair style belongs with shorts and T-shirts, not a suit. Again, they end up looking like a boy playing at being an adult, or playing at being 'fashionable'. 

I do, nevertheless, believe young adults can look good in a suit. But if it looks too contrived, then I think problems arise.

_EDIT: _that is why I don't currently wear pocket squares; I do like them, but on me (I'm 30-ish), in England (not London), it would appear too contrived. My main objectives are to get the best fitted suit I can, altered as best as I can, and match ties and shirts as best as I can. 

_EDIT: _by matching ties and shirts, obviously I mean in an uncontrived way!


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

There are a few "right ways" to wear a suit... and an infinite number of wrong ways. 99% of young men just haven't learned. 

And, as noted, they are often handicapped by cheap suits. You can get by with cheap shirts and even cheap ties (if you choose very carefully), but genuinely cheap suits just look awful. They're much too complicated in construction to be passable when done the really fast/cheap way, and cheap wool looks like cheap wool. 

But more than that, you need to wear a suit a lot to feel as comfortable in one as you do in shorts and a t-shirt. If the suit feels peculiar or unatural to the wearer, it will look contrived to the rest of the world. There's no solution to that problem except to just keep wearing them. Membership in the fraternity of good adult dressers is preceded by a bit of hazing, and looking awkward in real clothes for the first few years you try to do it is part of it. That's one of the reasons that women so often remark/complain that men get better looking as they get older. 

One other thought: in our society, the suit has become something mostly reserved for professionals, executives, and politicians. It is, at a subconscious level, a power garment. And it's difficult not to look silly as a 24 year old who is trying to look powerful. Again, nothing to be done about it.


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## Hanzo (Sep 9, 2009)

Its been touched on several times, but the way that one wears any piece of clothing has a big impact on it.

I can, in a matter of seconds, point out a man who wears a suit daily to one who wears it twice a year simply by their body language. Those not used to wearing more formal clothes move differently in them in an attempt to preserve them. Those who wear suits daily will move the same as they would in a tshirt and jeans. 

So, in wondering if you look silly in a suit, let me ask you; do you wear the suit or does the suit wear you?


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

Hanzo said:


> Its been touched on several times, but the way
> that one wears any piece of clothing has a big impact on it.
> 
> I can, in a matter of seconds, point out a man who wears a suit daily
> ...


That's a good point. I think my dad looks better in the same suit
because he doesn't care about it, whereas I (sometimes even
subconsciously) try to ensure that it doesn't get wrinkled or dirty. I
find myself doing this with new shoes all the time (even sneakers),
I'll walk slightly differently to try to maintain the "newness" of the
shoes. It seems like we've boiled this question down to:

- being uncomfortable in the clothes
- having poorly fitted clothes
- having cheaper clothes than would be ideal

On the other hand, two guys I find wear their clothes exceptionally well
are Henry Cavill (27) and Ed Westwick (23):


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

One aspect of it is that the "young guys in suits" are trying very hard to look and act like "young guys" and not "guys in suits", and the actors look adolescent. I see and deal with lots of 20-somethings in suits, who are actually on business, and they look fine


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

Checkerboard 13 said:


> There is nothing at all contradictory about a young man in a suit, if the suit fits well and the young man wears it well. *Neither can be said about young Lebouf in the linked photo*.


Neither, eh? The suit doesn't fit *and* he's wearing it poorly. Coulda fooled me. It's my monitor maybe. I'll look into getting a new one. What kind would you recommend, Checkers?


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

CuffDaddy said:


> One other thought: in our society, the suit has become something mostly reserved for professionals, executives, and politicians. It is, at a subconscious level, a power garment. And it's difficult not to look silly as a 24 year old who is trying to look powerful. Again, nothing to be done about it.


That's why I stay away from pin-stripe suits, though I do have a subtle one. I'm around the 30 mark, but cleanly-shaven I tend to look younger, mid- to late twenties.



a!!!!1 said:


> . It seems like we've boiled this question down to:
> 
> - being uncomfortable in the clothes
> - having poorly fitted clothes
> - having cheaper clothes than would be ideal


I'm in agreement here.



phyrpowr said:


> One aspect of it is that the "young guys in suits" are trying very hard to look and act like "young guys" and not "guys in suits", and the actors look adolescent. I see and deal with lots of 20-somethings in suits, who are actually on business, and they look fine


Brilliantly put, and perhaps what I was meaing to say earlier. Quite a few young guys (earlier twenties) would not normally wear or like to wear suits, but it is now making a fashion comeback - lo and behold, we are flooded with skin-tight suits, and young guys wanting to look, as phyrpowr puts it, young guys wearing suits, not 'guys' wearing suits. The reason? They do not want to been seen as conformists.


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## demondeac (Aug 2, 2010)

I agree ... something about younger guys wearing suits almost always looks like they're "trying too hard"


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

One word:

Confidence.


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## My Pet. A Pantsuit (Dec 25, 2008)

Yeah, those young guys at nice dinners and job interviews really need to act their age and at least bring a beer bong with them.


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## FrontHeadlock (Dec 1, 2009)

I agree with a lot of what is said here.

On Wednesday I interviewed about 20 law students at a top law school for entry level positions, about half of whom were guys, and you'd be surprised how poorly they were dressed: bad fit, inappropriate clothes, etc. One kid interviewed in a black suit, dark maroon shirt, and black tie. Needless to say he didn't get called back.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

FrontHeadlock said:


> I agree with a lot of what is said here.
> 
> On Wednesday I interviewed about 20 law students at a top law school for entry level positions, about half of whom were guys, and you'd be surprised how poorly they were dressed: bad fit, inappropriate clothes, etc. One kid interviewed in a black suit, dark maroon shirt, and black tie. Needless to say he didn't get called back.


Maybe he had been paying his way through school by working as a doorman at a bar and had a shift afterwards?


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

FrontHeadlock said:


> One kid interviewed in a black suit, dark maroon shirt, and black tie. Needless to say he didn't get called back.


Maybe he'll get hired at another firm and get a client who sues one of yours and wins. And boo hoo on you. Did you really not call him back because of a black suit and dark shirt? And do you really think the act of not doing so falls under _needless to say_?


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

FrontHeadlock said:


> about half of whom were guys, and you'd be surprised how poorly they were dressed: bad fit, inappropriate clothes, etc. One kid interviewed in a black suit, dark maroon shirt, and black tie..


In defence, there are hardly any role-models for the younger generation. Well, there are role-models, but they are ignorant to them. When I travel, I see a plethora of young men who wear trousers far too long, shoes that are scruffy, ties that are half knotted, and so on. Now-and-again you do see a well-dressed young man.

If you get a sale person's that is informed, I agree you've hit the jackpot. But these are few and far between. I don't mean to sound sexist, but the worst are female sale assistants.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

Poor quality clothing and poor fit aside, I agree that it is hard in the current climate in the US to wear a suit and not look like you are trying too hard.

Even in a proper business setting at an older age (I am nearing 40), I find a simple navy or charcoal suit and subtle accessories - still makes me look better than everyone in the room - including my CEO - which is not the best position to be in.

I have seen people close big financial deals in khaki's and a polo shirt. I have seen a guy who makes 250k a year, wear the same beat up tweed sport coat to every event in town. I think the overall level of sartorial discourse is at an all time low.

So if the OP feels like young people are "playing grown ups" when they put on suits - it may be some consolation to mention that even actual "grown ups" feel the pressure to sucome to the the dumbing down of dressing up. I think the difference is that as you get older, you become more sure of yourself and have the confidence to pull it off - no matter the situation.


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

Jake Genezen said:


> ties that are half knotted


what does that mean?


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

Sorry, perhaps not the best choice of words.

I mean, the knot has not been tightened in any manner. Why wear a tie, I ask.


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## FrontHeadlock (Dec 1, 2009)

Peak and Pine said:


> Maybe he'll get hired at another firm and get a client who sues one of yours and wins. And boo hoo on you. Did you really not call him back because of a black suit and dark shirt? And do you really think the act of not doing so falls under _needless to say_?


Not entirely. He probably wouldn't have gotten called back anyway, but this made it an easy choice.

And yes, I do.

Look, for a guy interviewing at a top law firm, how freaking easy is it to wear a navy or gray suit, white or light blue shirt, non-offensive tie, and black shoes? It doesn't even have to be that nice, as I understand not all of these kids have a lot of money (I certainly didn't). Hell, I'm not even that conservative when it comes to dressing. If they wear a navy pinstripe suit, pink shirt, tie and brown shoes, even though not entirely interview appropriate, I probably wouldn't hold that against them. But this kid just dressed like he was a fourteen year old going to a dinner dance. I'm sorry, but when you are interviewing for a position at a top law firm, you need to dress the part.


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

mrkleen said:


> Poor quality clothing and poor fit aside


Do you feel like those are the two things that make young guys look bad in their suits (in addition to a lack of confidence that you also mentioned)? If you took a confident 18 year old kid and put him in a $5000 bespoke suit, would he still look like a little kid or do you think he'd look really good?



FrontHeadlock said:


> Look, for a guy interviewing at a top law firm, how freaking easy is it to wear a navy or gray suit, white or light blue shirt, non-offensive tie, and black shoes?


Do most guys who come in wear something like that? I'd have to say 99% of younger guys I see in suits only wear black (not saying there's anything wrong with black as both of my suits are black, but I don't work in a highly conservative business so it doesn't matter to me). I also remember when we had business school interviews during the school year I'd always see guys in black suit, white shirt, and black tie. I asked one of my friends why he'd wear a black tie and he said "I gotta look conservative."


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## mysharona (Nov 4, 2008)

First and foremost, Shia LeBouf is a douchebag.
Secondly, young guys are generally a) uncomfortable in a suit and therefore will not look "right" in one, and b) younger guys generally think that their 2 suits for $300 from S&K was a great deal and that because the S&K house brand is made in Italy that they are wearing fantastic suits. Not the case. Most younger guys just don't have any idea about the prospect of a tailor and what said tailor can do for them. 'Nuff said.


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## FrontHeadlock (Dec 1, 2009)

a!!!!1 said:


> Do most guys who come in wear something like that? I'd have to say 99% of younger guys I see in suits only wear black (not saying there's anything wrong with black as both of my suits are black, but I don't work in a highly conservative business so it doesn't matter to me). I also remember when we had business school interviews during the school year I'd always see guys in black suit, white shirt, and black tie. I asked one of my friends why he'd wear a black tie and he said "I gotta look conservative."


Yes. Most guys wear gray or navy. When I interviewed 6 years ago as a 23 year old, I wore a charcoal suit.


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## Jake Genezen (May 27, 2010)

> First and foremost, Shia LeBouf is a douchebag.


Is this in regards to his acting ability, his character in Wall Street, or just generally him? (I ask because I don't know much of him).



> Secondly, young guys are generally a) uncomfortable in a suit and therefore will not look "right" in one, and b) younger guys generally think that their 2 suits for $300 from S&K was a great deal and that because the S&K house brand is made in Italy that they are wearing fantastic suits. Not the case. Most younger guys just don't have any idea about the prospect of a tailor and what said tailor can do for them. 'Nuff said.


I'm in agreement here.

Also, it baffles me why the young men leave the fabric tag attached on the sleeve. I don't know if they purposely do so to advertise the designer, or they are just ignorant.


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## mrkleen (Sep 21, 2007)

a!!!!1 said:


> Do you feel like those are the two things that make young guys look bad in their suits (in addition to a lack of confidence that you also mentioned)? If you took a confident 18 year old kid and put him in a $5000 bespoke suit, would he still look like a little kid or do you think he'd look really good?


First off, I dont think the cost of the suit is ever the issue...it is all about the fit. Of course, with two well tailored suits the more expensive one with better fabric and details will stand out - but generally, I think you can get a very good look from a modestly priced suit and good tailoring.

I think that if you took a young person in a well tailored suit, who was also confident and in an appropriate setting (this is the key IMO) - it would make no difference how expensive the suit was - he would be just fine. But I think more than the suit itself or the fit of that suit, it is the setting that makes all the difference.

If you are at the Waldorf Astoria - or some really nice steakhouse - wearing a nice suit and a good bit of confidence, you would be fine at 18, 38 or 58. I think it is the cases where a 22 year old ends up at his usual "college pick up bar" wearing a suit, where he looks out of place and like he is playing a grown up - rather than being one. And to my earlier point, I think the places where you are not going to stand out like a sore thumb wearing a nice suit, are fewer and further in between.

I own a lot of really nice clothes and love dressing up and do it every chance I can. But I have found it harder and harder to find social occasions where I can wear a suit around people my own age (mid 30s.) and not see like I am trying too hard. It is not about the fit or the quality of my clothing - it is that everyone else in the room is dressed like BUMS - and a suit is often too far in the other extreme. Even when I wear a sport coat of blazer with jeans and a nice shirt - people ask me if I am going to a wedding or something along those lines.

On most occasions, I dont mind being amongst the nicest dressed people in the room - but in a social setting, even in the city, the places where getting dressed up is a positive and not a negative are becoming fewer and further between. Really a sad state of affairs.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

FrontHeadlock said:


> *[H]ow freaking easy is it *to wear a navy or gray suit, white or light blue shirt, non-offensive tie, and black shoes? I'm sorry, but when you are interviewing for a position at a top law firm, you need to dress the part.


How freaking hard is it not to slaughter a well-worn rhetorical phrase? You use _easy_ when you mean_ difficult_. If I were as harsh with you for verbal imprecision as you were with the kid in the maroon shirt, you'd both be knocking at other doors. I find it very difficult to imagine that you turned away a candidate based on the colors of his suit, shirt and tie. That there were other reasons, as you've belatedly pointed out, matters not. In your original post you said what the kid was wearing only and that he was not called back and you added the phrase _needless to say_. If you would like to correct that, then that would be admission of another example of verbal imprecision.


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## Peak and Pine (Sep 12, 2007)

mysharona said:


> First and foremost, Shia LeBouf is a douchebag.





Jake Genezen said:


> Is this in regards to his acting ability, his character in Wall Street, or just generally him? (I ask because I don't know much of him).


The remark about LaBeouf is witless, besides it's spelled wrong. Mysharona hosts a blog in which he shows pictures of himself. Shia LaBeouf appears in a photo spread in the April GQ. In it LaBeouf looks mighty fine in his slim cut suits. Which is not to say that mysharona doesn't look good in his fuller cuts. Different looks however. I choose LaBeouf. Hands down. Which doesn't mean I think mysharona is a douche.


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## Douglas Brisbane Gray (Jun 7, 2010)

Jake Genezen said:


> I
> Also, it baffles me why the young men leave the fabric tag attached on the sleeve. I don't know if they purposely do so to advertise the designer, or they are just ignorant.


My late father in law left the fabric tag on his Irish tweed jacket because his older sister told him it was a designer label and to leave it on. He was 75 and she was 78 at the time. She had been a tutor at a catering college until she retired and must have picked the idea up from her students.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

mysharona said:


> First and foremost, Shia LeBouf is a douchebag.


Are you basing this on something other than what is available in his public profile? I ask because other than a couple of scrapes with the law, the most serious of which was a drunk driving charge, he generally appears to be a talented, hard working young man who has been quite successful from a very young age. As for the police record, my son had a similar record at that age and he is not a douchebag. He is a responsible, hard working, successful family man in his early 30's now. Is there something else that I don't know about Mr. LeBeouf?

As for this entire discussion, it seems like much ado about nothing to me. Young guys can look good or bad in a suit just like old guys can look good or bad in a suit. I wore suits back in the 70's when I was in my 20's and really didn't give it much thought, although I will admit that it was a huge change from the bell bottom jeans, sneakers, and shoulder length hair that immediately preceded my move to wearing suits.

I was in my 20's and only a couple of years out of my hippie days when this picture was taken. I don't know if I look like I was trying too hard or trying to play grown up or what. I just thought that I looked like a guy wearing a suit.:icon_smile_big:










Cruiser


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## upr_crust (Aug 23, 2006)

In this thread, there seems to be a dichotomy of viewpoints, with one group of posters thinking that young men with the right suit and accessories COULD look well while suited, and the other group thinking that, no matter what the attire, that men under a certain age will NEVER look good, or at least natural. 

It would seem that, for the people in the latter group, that it is somehow unnatural for a man under the age of 26 (as given by the OP, I believe) to look "natural" in a suit, or, more to the point, it is unexpected that he would do so. That would seem to be to be more symptomatic of the expectations of the viewer rather than the "naturalness" of the viewed. 

For myself, I was guided in buying suits by my late husband (a gentleman 23 years my senior, with very strong opinions as to attire - and everything else - and an excellent eye), so I never felt "unnatural" dressed up - but I was a 20-something in a very different era (the late 70's and early 80's).


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

upr, I certainly don't count myself in the group that thinks a 20-something can never look natural. I was a lawyer in a big firm by the age of 24, and wearing a suit. And had worn them during summers the prior two years. And had worn them voluntarily/for fun on an occassional basis growing up, in addition to church wear and the like. 

That said, I look at pictures from 10 or 12 years ago, and there's no doubt I know how to wear a suit better, restrain myself in choice of tie, etc., today. Again, it just takes time to figure things out, refine your tastes, etc. If one is lucky enough, as you were, to have a mentor to guide you, the process would probably be faster.


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## jean-paul sartorial (Jul 28, 2010)

Peak and Pine said:


> I find it very difficult to imagine that you turned away a candidate based on the colors of his suit, shirt and tie.


Justice should be blind, but it isn't. Your ability to make an impression on clients, judge, jury, and partners is a huge part of your success.

More importantly, in law there are about a million things you have to do "just because." Legally and socially. And they aren't always written down, and people will not always have the time to teach you. As stupid as they might seem, you have to figure them all out and follow them.

These are not 18 year olds. They've been in law school for a few years, and they most likely have taken a "law camp" course where they work with a real attorney who will simulate a full case with them and show them everything from proper font and spacing in filings to how to dress. And this may not be their first interview.

You can wear a suit that doesn't fit you right, or a tie that might be a little too loud. That's easily remedied. We're not talking about maxing out style points. If you show up in a maroon shirt for a law interview there is likely some fundamental problem with your ability to be an attorney than poor fashion sense.

I'm not endorsing the way things work at firms or in court. In fact, I disliked them enough that I quit my firm after 6 years, and then after another 2 years I quit practicing completely (but still maintain "associate" status with the bar).

But whether it is right or not, the guy who shows up in a maroon shirt for an interview really is much less likely to beat you in court some a few years from now than the guy who shows up for an interview properly dressed. I have no problem with people whose responsibility is to look out for the success of their firm rejecting an applicant simply based on a maroon dress shirt.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

jean-paul sartorial's story is apparently at least a few years old. It's possible things have changed since (though I'm not sure).

I would agree with his "needless to say." I'd be pretty surprised if anyone who showed up to interview with a "biglaw" (or even close) law firm in a maroon shirt would get a flyback. It demonstrates either (a) a level of cluelessness that would make it difficult to deal with clients, other lawyers and the law or (b) an intentional desire to flout convention that would be more trouble than it's worth. A firm I worked at once decided not to give an offer to a very smart guy I interviewed on the ground that he seemed arrogant (never mind that he had won a Pulitizer Prize as a reporter for the New York Times).


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## David_E (Apr 18, 2010)

Practice.

They don't feel comfortable, so they don't look comfortable.


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## Checkerboard 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

jean-paul sartorial said:


> Justice should be blind, but it isn't. Your ability to make an impression on clients, judge, jury, and partners is a huge part of your success.
> 
> More importantly, in law there are about a million things you have to do "just because." Legally and socially. And they aren't always written down, and people will not always have the time to teach you. As stupid as they might seem, you have to figure them all out and follow them.
> 
> ...


 I agree entirely. If after law school (and all of the other preliminary steps before interviewing with a firm) a person remains unaware of what constitutes proper interview attire (or is unwilling to wear it), something is definitely wrong. The firm is wise to pass on such a candidate.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Mr. sartorial has done an excellent job of summing it up. Learning to get along in a big law firm and practice law competently requires learning hundreds of thousands of little things. If each of those things must be taught to you literally, you will chew up too much time from more senior attorneys, and the firm will lose money on you for years and years. (Incidentally, most firms lose money on new associates for at least 6-18 months - hiring a new lawyer is a big investment.) Showing up looking like a gangster, or a cut-rate Regis Philbin, indicates that you don't pick things up by osmosis, and that someone is going to have to directly instruct you on every point. Is this a perfect system? No, but like most investments, hiring decisions are necessarily made on less than complete information.


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## ilikeyourstyle (Apr 24, 2007)

I don't agree with the sentiment in the original post. I think men (both young and old) tend to look better in suits than they do in casual clothing, even if the fit is not quite perfect. The 99% of the population who aren't aware of the various rules we discuss on this forum would likely agree that a man in a suit is a good thing. All of my 25-30 year old female friends love guys in suits, which is a strong reason why the suit is going to stick around for years to come.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

Agreed. I think the point is that older men look better in suits than younger men, just as younger men often look better in ultra-casual clothes than older men. It does not follow, however, that young men look better in casual than dress clothes.


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## Dr Kilroy (May 10, 2010)

If a young guy wears a suit like he wear casual clothes, and of course the suit is made by a tailor, and he knows a suit etiquette and rules, he'll look nice. One problem - I've never seen such a guy. However I totally agree with ilikeyourstyle, that everyone looks better in suits than in casual, it also explains my weird fondness of the most garments worn with neckwear. 

Regards, Dr


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## Jovan (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't look as natural as the mature men here who get to wear a suit most of the time, but I'd like to think I don't look wrong! Even with a few things slightly off like sleeve length, Prince William is cooler and more relaxed looking than me in a suit. I envy that _and_ his access to a tailor.

LaBeouf is merely a young actor with average talent who plays the same character all the time. This is not synonymous to being a "douchebag*," even if I dislike the trendy cut of his suits.

*A word which, along with "retarded" or "gay" used in the negative sense, I'm really getting tired of hearing.


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## FrontHeadlock (Dec 1, 2009)

Peak and Pine said:


> How freaking hard is it not to slaughter a well-worn rhetorical phrase? You use _easy_ when you mean_ difficult_. If I were as harsh with you for verbal imprecision as you were with the kid in the maroon shirt, you'd both be knocking at other doors. I find it very difficult to imagine that you turned away a candidate based on the colors of his suit, shirt and tie. That there were other reasons, as you've belatedly pointed out, matters not. In your original post you said what the kid was wearing only and that he was not called back and you added the phrase _needless to say_. If you would like to correct that, then that would be admission of another example of verbal imprecision.


When I can call back only 6 out of 20 excellent applicants, everything matters. If you can't even dress appropriately for an interview (I'm not talking poor fit, mismatching tie and shirts, etc.), then I'm not calling you back.


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## Wayfarer89 (Aug 16, 2010)

For a young man who is graduating from college soon, how can young guys look good in suits despite all the obstacles?


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## TomS (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm 22. It's tough (suit-wearing, that is; the rest of being 22 I'm alright with...). 

I attended a 50th birthday party recently, held at a reasonably prestigious establishment I won't name for fear of incriminating the guilty. I wore a navy linen suit, pink Oxford cotton shirt, no tie and managed to out-dress about 80% of the attendees. The gentleman whose birthday it was spent the evening in faded jeans and an appallingly loud short-sleeve shirt.

In such an environment, it's tough to feel comfortable. I thought I did a pretty good job under the circumstances, and the half-dozen other suit-wearers in the room were equally opting for more casual, lightweight fabrics and open necks.


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## CuffDaddy (Feb 26, 2009)

It's actually not that hard.

1. Buy a decent suit and make sure it fits. It will not fit like your jeans, or like a sweatsuit. 

2. Avoid garishness, especially at first. Learn that what attracts your eye and/or looks good on the shelf is hardly ever what looks good on you. That irridescent, shimmering, multicolored jacquard-woven tie? Leave it. Start low key, then gradually edge into bolder stuff.

3. Wear a suit, or an odd jacket and tie, often enough to get used to the feeling. Don't strip off your tie the moment you hit the parking lot at the end of a work day. Run an errand on the way home wearing the suit. Get used to walking around in a suit as though it was just clothing - because it is. Get rid of the feeling that you're wearing your baseball uniform to the pizza joint after a little league victory.


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## phyrpowr (Aug 30, 2009)

David E. and CuffDaddy hit it on the head. A suit, no matter how well tailored, doesn't fit like a pair of cargo shorts and a tee. Too many people, and not just kids, seem to get the "fidgets". You have to get used to the minor restrictions, and no, it doesn't take long if one isn't fighting it


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## Beefeater (Jun 2, 2007)

TomS said:


> I'm 22. It's tough (suit-wearing, that is; the rest of being 22 I'm alright with...).
> 
> I attended a 50th birthday party recently, held at a reasonably prestigious establishment I won't name for fear of incriminating the guilty. I wore a navy linen suit, pink Oxford cotton shirt, no tie and managed to out-dress about 80% of the attendees. The gentleman whose birthday it was spent the evening in faded jeans and an appallingly loud short-sleeve shirt.
> 
> In such an environment, it's tough to feel comfortable. I thought I did a pretty good job under the circumstances, and the half-dozen other suit-wearers in the room were equally opting for more casual, lightweight fabrics and open necks.


You had the more appropriate attire. Not saying that others weren't appropriate, and I wasn't there, but it sounds like you nailed the balance of being casual yet stylish and appropriate for the occasion. Just keep doing it, and it will feel second nature to you with no self doubt. I live in Dallas and can identify with your predicament, but I've been doing it so long now, that I just don't mind what others are wearing but rather feel confident in what I am wearing.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Regarding the aforementioned issue of maroon shirts and the legal profession, my wife is an attorney, and I have been to many a firm/legal function with her and have yet to see anyone in a maroon shirt. So, I guess none of those guys ever got hired. Or they were hired and immediately told to burn said shirt.


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## Mr. Mac (Mar 14, 2008)

TomS said:


> I'm 22. It's tough (suit-wearing, that is; the rest of being 22 I'm alright with...).
> 
> I attended a 50th birthday party recently, held at a reasonably prestigious establishment I won't name for fear of incriminating the guilty. I wore a navy linen suit, pink Oxford cotton shirt, no tie and managed to out-dress about 80% of the attendees. The gentleman whose birthday it was spent the evening in faded jeans and an appallingly loud short-sleeve shirt.
> 
> In such an environment, it's tough to feel comfortable.


 _*NEVER BE AFRAID TO BE THE BEST DRESSED MAN IN THE ROOM!*_

I tell my customers this every day. It _i__s _awkward at first. Our society is very casual and often sloppy. It takes a little bit of borrowed confidence to slip into something a notch or two dressier than the masses and wear it well. But the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll become AND you'll look better as a result.

Years ago I stood on the 1st tee at a golf course introducing myself to my playing partners. I hadn't planned on playing that day, but happened to stop by the course on a whim. I was wear gym shorts and a old polo. One of the men I was paired up with asked what I did for work. I told him I was in menswear. He looked me up and down and said, "No kidding?" I decided then to step up my look a little outside of work. It was awkward at first, but I've never regretted those first few moments of self-consciousness. I don't dress to impress, but I do dress so that I'd never feel awkward handing out my card to a man I met on the street.


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## VA540 (Dec 15, 2009)

Mr. Mac said:


> _*NEVER BE AFRAID TO BE THE BEST DRESSED MAN IN THE ROOM!*_
> 
> I tell my customers this every day. It _i__s _awkward at first. Our society is very casual and often sloppy. It takes a little bit of borrowed confidence to slip into something a notch or two dressier than the masses and wear it well. But the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll become AND you'll look better as a result.
> 
> Years ago I stood on the 1st tee at a golf course introducing myself to my playing partners. I hadn't planned on playing that day, but happened to stop by the course on a whim. I was wear gym shorts and a old polo. One of the men I was paired up with asked what I did for work. I told him I was in menswear. He looked me up and down and said, "No kidding?" I decided then to step up my look a little outside of work. It was awkward at first, but I've never regretted those first few moments of self-consciousness. I don't dress to impress, but I do dress so that I'd never feel awkward handing out my card to a man I met on the street.


I couldn't agree more.


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## jean-paul sartorial (Jul 28, 2010)

IT WAS THE GUY'S BIRTHDAY, for crying out loud. His birthday, his party, he can wear what he wants. If neither he nor the establishment care what the guests are wearing, why should you?

Besides, did it occur to anyone that some of the guests may have deliberately dressed down in order to make the guest of honor feel more comfortable? 

Something is appalling here and it is NOT the guest-of-honor's shirt.


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## cactiman (Aug 1, 2009)

Jake Genezen said:


> Also, it baffles me why the young men leave the fabric tag attached on the sleeve. I don't know if they purposely do so to advertise the designer, or they are just ignorant.


I saw this for the 1st time the other day on a young guy wearing a light sportscoat, with a blue fabric tag at the end of the sleeve. I was shocked, I just assumed he was ignorant & had taken it for a label.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

jean-paul sartorial said:


> IT WAS THE GUY'S BIRTHDAY, for crying out loud.


This is a good point - though my understanding of the original post is somewhat hindered by the vagueness of determining the exact nature of the "reasonably prestigious establishment." If we read this to mean, "Place where one is expected to dress up," it makes more sense. Of course, there are plenty of reasonably (or even unreasonably) prestigious establishments were if you showed up in, say, a suit and tie, you'd look like an utter boob.


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## TomS (Mar 29, 2010)

Starch said:


> This is a good point - though my understanding of the original post is somewhat hindered by the vagueness of determining the exact nature of the "reasonably prestigious establishment." If we read this to mean, "Place where one is expected to dress up," it makes more sense. Of course, there are plenty of reasonably (or even unreasonably) prestigious establishments were if you showed up in, say, a suit and tie, you'd look like an utter boob.


It was a private hire of a members' club in one of England's more respected university towns; that good enough for ya? Day in day out, the place probably has a dress code, but this being a private "event" hire, we could have worn whatever we liked.


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## jean-paul sartorial (Jul 28, 2010)

If it's a normally a dress code club, but they waived the rule for a private event knowing that there were no other patrons around and with the understanding that people would dress casual, then there is no obligation to dress up. If you choose to dress up as would normally be appropriate I don't think there is anything wrong with that either. I'm guessing the hosts and guest of honor did not care much one way or the other. They simply wore what they wished and you did as well.

Alternatively, if you didn't know the event was wear-what-you-wish and made the completely reasonable and socially polite assumption that finer, though casual attire was required then I can certainly sympathize. You wore what would normally be expected at such a function and ended up in an awkward situation.

It's the notion (not necessarily put forth in any individual post, but as a collective vibe) that one should always try to dress the best in the room that I find a bit offensive. I do not believe one can ever be dressed badly at their own birthday party, and that would then extend to any guest who chooses to dress similarly. They are either suitably dressed or perhaps one step beyond that and actually respectfully and politely dressed.

I think that when someone turns 50, they are entitled to either relax and not worry about dress codes and/or bask in the attention of their friends, family, and other honored guests. To intentionally try and outdress that person is to selfishly call attention to yourself. And in my mind it adds an extra bit of sting if you happen to be young. 

Of course, I doubt any of that was your intention so you made at worst, a minor faux-pas that I would not normally trouble myself (or you) over and actually I doubt anyone cared, so while you might have felt uncomfortable, you were probably fine.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

jean-paul sartorial said:


> If it's a normally a dress code club....


My thoughts too, at least generally.

It's up to the host, together with the guest of honor,* to decide what's the appropriate attire, and any place on the spectrum from loose-'n'-casual to black tie is fair game. If anything, I'd be more inclined to frown at someone who leaps toward the latter end willy-nilly. If you've rented the venue, the members aren't there, and the boss doesn't care, then their dress code is more-or-less irrelevant.

Of course, it's also up to the host to convey some vague sense of the expected attire: if the site is such that you'd ordinarily expect a certain level of formality, it's bad communication on the host's part not to disabuse guests of the reasonable assumption that the ordinary codes apply.

I suppose I'd also be a bit put off, even if the venue is rented, by dress that's wildly out of character with the place. It reeks a little of thumbing one's nose or something.



> It's the notion (not necessarily put forth in any individual post, but as a collective vibe) that one should always try to dress the best in the room that I find a bit offensive.


I kind of do, as well. It seems like trying to "win" the party. A party's not about competition so much as camaraderie, good fellowship and - in the case of birthday party, at least - making the guest of honor happy. Okay, yes: in younger circles there's a certain amount of pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey, or more complex late-adolescent variations. But I'm thinking about adults here.

More generally, if _every_ (or even more than, say, one) person at an event is intent on being the best dressed, the competition will, as a logical matter, escalate until an arm's race of white tie and tails, perhaps with military decorations and strange sashes, breaks out.

Also, just as a purely practical matter: the most dressed-up person at the company golf outing or pool party usually doesn't come off as a cool fella so much as a putz, though I suppose that depends on the company. For some reason, I'm flashing back to the yacht-christening party scene in "Caddyshack."
______
* Unless it's a surprise party, of course. In which case, it would be height of churlishness to complain that someone didn't dress properly for an event he didn't know he was going to. Better to reflect on your good fortune that he was dressed at all.


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## MicTester (Oct 8, 2009)

In reference to some of the posts, I would notice when someone is poorly dressed for an interview, but would not reject a candidate on that count. 

I have seen that it is one of the easiest things to fix. So I will hire a candidate on parameters that are more enduring and then we teach them how to dress. They pick it up fast. Very fast.


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## Cruiser (Jul 21, 2006)

MicTester said:


> I have seen that it is one of the easiest things to fix. So I will hire a candidate on parameters that are more enduring and then we teach them how to dress.


Reminds me of the response from the basketball coach when asked why he had given a scholarship to a 7 foot tall kid with limited basketball skills. He said that it is easier to teach a 7 footer how to shoot and rebound than it is to teach a 5'10" kid how to be 7 feet tall.

Cruiser


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## ilikeyourstyle (Apr 24, 2007)

MicTester said:


> In reference to some of the posts, I would notice when someone is poorly dressed for an interview, but would not reject a candidate on that count.
> 
> I have seen that it is one of the easiest things to fix. So I will hire a candidate on parameters that are more enduring and then we teach them how to dress. They pick it up fast. Very fast.


Good thinking. It's kind of like how you don't dump a girlfriend who has a great body and great mind but poor fashion sense. You just compliment her when she wears something nice, and she'll quickly figure out what looks good on her.


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## Starch (Jun 28, 2010)

ilikeyourstyle said:


> Good thinking. It's kind of like how you don't dump a girlfriend who has a great body and great mind but poor fashion sense. You just compliment her when she wears something nice, and she'll quickly figure out what looks good on her.


Spoken like someone who's never had a girlfriend....

While you're at it, you might try, "Yeah, actually: you _do_ look fat in that."


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## 10gallonhat (Dec 13, 2009)

ilikeyourstyle said:


> Good thinking. It's kind of like how you don't dump a girlfriend who has a great body and great mind but poor fashion sense. You just compliment her when she wears something nice, and she'll quickly figure out what looks good on her.


Do girls who dress like little kids now generally tend to dress better as they get older? I've never dated a girl over 20 so I wouldn't know. But even the ones I've known since freshman year of high school dress about the same now as they did back then.


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## ilikeyourstyle (Apr 24, 2007)

a!!!!1 said:


> Do girls who dress like little kids now generally tend to dress better as they get older? I've never dated a girl over 20 so I wouldn't know. But even the ones I've known since freshman year of high school dress about the same now as they did back then.


I've watched my friends become progressively better at dressing themselves as they've aged from 20 to 30. That said, there are still a few lost souls who didn't care back then and still don't care now. In other words, some improve and some remain the same. Rarely do they regress.


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## Leighton (Nov 16, 2009)

a!!!!1 said:


> Do girls who dress like little kids now generally tend to dress better as they get older? I've never dated a girl over 20 so I wouldn't know. But even the ones I've known since freshman year of high school dress about the same now as they did back then.


Considering that I have no idea what dressing well for a woman means... Although I would probably be able to spot bad outfits.

Also considering that the goal with women's clothing seems to be to show as much as possible, without showing anything... I would say no. Fashion probably doesn't change as women grow older. They probably wear more conservative clothing as they age, but while their in their prime, I don't see any reason why they would; unless they get married, become a nun, swear off men, or do something drastic.

That said, I really have no idea what I'm talking about. You'd probably have to ask women about this subject to get a real answer.


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