# Suit brand hierarchy, what's the difference?



## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

Forgive me for what I'm sure are silly questions. New to the suit game.

I'm in the sub $1000 market. Would love to get two suits that I can wear on a regular basis for that price as long as I'm not waisting my money.

Sounds to me that the tiers of suits from least to best quality go:
1. Jos. A Bank/Men's Wearhouse
2. Suit Supply (none near me...order online?)
3. Brooks Brothers
4. Expensive

Am I paying for longevity when I go up each tier, or am I simply paying for style and fit?


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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

Afterthought: got a couple pairs of Allen Edmonds recently. Seems to be the perfect balance between quality and cost. Any comparable suit companies out there?


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## never behind (Jul 5, 2016)

I’m relatively new to the game, but moving up from JAB to Brooks Brothers is like moving to AE in shoes. You are getting a much better quality product that will last and just look better. I don’t wear suits much anymore, but daily wear slacks/sport coats. I recently upgraded from some JAB coats to a Hickey Freeman and a Samuelsohn. The fully canvassed jackets fit much better and the fabric quality is much nicer. I also have a Hart Shaffner Marx coat that, while only half canvassed, is still better than the JAB coats. 

I would determine how much you. Want to spend on a suit and buy the best you can. With sales at Brooks Brothers and Nordstrom, for example, you can get a nicer suit. 


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## Jgarner197 (Feb 24, 2017)

I will second the mentioning of Samuelsohn. If you keep your eye out on Saks or Saks Off Fifth you should easily be able to pick up a suit for under 1k. In fact earlier this year I seem to recall a fellow member bought a few around $300 ish on discount at Saks. If you have a fairly easily attainable size and you can find something similar in price I don’t think you could do much better than Samuelsohn.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Samuelsohn makes for Saks Fifth Ave. and during their F&F sale, you can get them for 25% off, not to mention other times when they are discounted. Mind you, this is for RTW and I don't think it applies to their made to measure program. 

If you absolutely, positively need it now, then you can usually find a good deal at Brooks Brothers. If you can wait, I will endorse the Sammy option above.


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## drlivingston (Jun 21, 2012)

In that price range, I would also include Hickey Freeman and Coppley as options (if they are on sale).


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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll check out Samuelsohn and maybe some others.

My major concern is longevity though. Was worth it to me to get the AE's because they'll last so much longer. If I'm going to spend more than double what I would at Men's Wearhouse, am I going to get twice the life out of them?

If not, I'd rather buy a couple suits from Men's Wearhouse with a decent enough fit. I know there are other factors, but at this point in life I really need to be frugal.


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## Jgarner197 (Feb 24, 2017)

hiker said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. I'll check out Samuelsohn and maybe some others.
> 
> My major concern is longevity though. If I'm going to spend more than double what I would at Men's Wearhouse, am I going to get twice the life out of them?
> 
> If not, I'd rather buy a couple suits from Men's Wearhouse with a decent enough fit.


Fit should always be one of your highest concerns. A well fitting cheaper suit can and often will look better than a more expensive poorly fitting garment. If you move high enough up in their model line hierarchy both JAB and MW offer a half canvassed jacket. These should last you several years if not abused and you limit your dry cleaning. A fully canvassed garment (Samuelsohn & Hickey Freeman) has no glue/adhesive in it and will generally hold the test of time a little better.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

The answers above are superb. Let me explicitly advise you against going with SuitSupply. Leave the skin-tight pants to Superman and Batman.

You are in the market for two workhorse suits, but aside from asking about brands that you should check out, you didn't mention the colors you should get. So just to be on the safe side (you did mention you are new to the world of suits) let me answer a question you didn't ask: With regard to your first two suits, one of them should be solid navy blue, the other solid charcoal grey. Perhaps you already suspected this, but it doesn't hurt to be sure.


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## JRK77 (Jun 23, 2017)

I second what Jgarner said about fit. And don't trust the salesman at BB or Saks regarding the matter (some at BB are ok, others, well...). I recommend that you educate yourself about proper fit on this board before going in to buy the suit, and stick to your guns when the salesman tells you that the coat shouldn't cover your tail, or that it should be skin tight!


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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

Thanks for the replies. I'm new to suits in that I've never tried to know what I was doing before. Just relied on the salesman. Now that I know better, I look at my suits in disappointment. Want to get my first suits that actually fit right.

Didn't know suit supply was on the leaner side with their pants. If that's the case, I'll steer clear! Finding pants that are roomy enough in the posterior is always my struggle. As for the colors, we're on the same page. Charcoal, then on to Navy.

Time-wise, I'm in no big hurry. Probably around Christmas time (or just after if there are better sales). Just want to know where to spend my money.


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## CLTesquire (Jul 23, 2010)

One thing I will mention is that Samuelsohn, like most reputable makers, has several different models or cuts. The ones sold at Saks are on the slimmer side but are not overly slim like some of the nonsense I see being sold at Suit Supply.

Hickey Freeman has an excellent sale at the end of the season. Their Beacon fit is a pretty standard fit.

To touch on one other thing, I doubt there is a one to one ratio of each dollar spent versus increased longevity. A full canvas garment will be better made but I doubt it will last twice as long. On the other hand you'll have access to some really excellent fabrics and a variety of models that will fit you better than the one size fits all version at MW.

Brooks isn't all bad if you can find something that fits. Their made in the USA suits are made by Southwick and they are often in VBC fabric, which is an excellent mill.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

The fabric also has an impact on longevity.


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## never behind (Jul 5, 2016)

CLTesquire said:


> One thing I will mention is that Samuelsohn, like most reputable makers, has several different models or cuts. The ones sold at Saks are on the slimmer side but are not overly slim like some of the nonsense I see being sold at Suit Supply.
> 
> Hickey Freeman has an excellent sale at the end of the season. Their Beacon fit is a pretty standard fit..


I'm not a slim guy and my two coats I purchased were a Saks Sammy and a Beacon HF. Both fit well and weren't overly slim as CLT notes. I'm more a 43R so I got a 44R and tailored it down. If you want to see pictures, I've posted the fits in here for comments. If you are looking at these brands that might give you an idea of looks on a non-model body. 

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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

The best value in suits is probably Brook Brothers Brookscool suits that go on sale for around $400 and come in different fits. I bought one on impulse and it is extremely comfortable. I prefer it to my Golden Fleece suits.


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## clothingconnoisseur (Oct 9, 2005)

I have experience with both JAB and Brooks Brothers and although Brooks is definitely a better suit, unless you are going with the Golden Fleece line you are just getting an overpriced, half-canvass suit.

I would recommend Hart Shaffner and Marx over the Brooks Brothers 1818 line. It is also half-canvass but generally nicer fabrics and if you get them on sale you can get two for less than $1,000. I own a few, all purchased at Lord & Taylor and IMHO, better than my Brooks Brothers suits.


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## SG_67 (Mar 22, 2014)

Perhaps Brooks Brothers 1818 suits don't represent the pinnacle of craftsmanship, but they are a solid value when purchased during one of their sales. I wouldn't necessarily consider them over-priced relative to their quality peers.


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## richard warren (Dec 10, 2015)

Brookscool suit label says "full canvas.". It is unlined. I suppose it has something other than wool in it, and I used to be a natural fiber only sort of guy, but it may be more durable because of it.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

If you are under 1000 and you want quality you need to wait for a "sale" or shop around because a fully canvassed jacket made with high quality fabric can be had on the cheap if you are patient. Indeed, I did purchase a Samuelsohn from Saks for less than $400 and it was a great find. BB constantly has sales and frequently you can find suits at half price (say 600-700 dollars) but as mentioned most of their stuff is half canvassed - which isn't to say that their stuff is crap. Indeed the fabrics are pretty decent and with 4 fits usually you can get something that works well for your body type.


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## winghus (Dec 18, 2014)

richard warren said:


> Brookscool suit label says "full canvas.". It is unlined. I suppose it has something other than wool in it, and I used to be a natural fiber only sort of guy, but it may be more durable because of it.


They're 100% wool with stretch woven in according to the BB website. I recall several people mentioning they were fully canvassed and quite a deal on sale over at SF.

Edit: Correction, the Regent fit says 100%wool, the Madison fit says wool and engineered fibers.


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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

Thanks for all your thoughts. What do you think about online custom suits like indochino or black lapel compared to nordstrom or men's wearhouse half canvassed suits?


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

hiker said:


> What do you think about online custom suits like indochino or black lapel?


NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## never behind (Jul 5, 2016)

hiker said:


> Thanks for all your thoughts. What do you think about online custom suits like indochino or black lapel compared to nordstrom or men's wearhouse half canvassed suits?


Go to a store where someone can fit you and you can try things on. I've done both and will never do online for suits/jackets again. The coat I bought turned out okay but the ending fit is much better in person. And if your online doesn't go well...just browse this forum and you'll see.

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## Jgarner197 (Feb 24, 2017)

hiker said:


> Thanks for all your thoughts. What do you think about online custom suits like indochino or black lapel compared to nordstrom or men's wearhouse half canvassed suits?


I second Mr. Dana's sentiments in regards to online MTM. I too looked into it at first, just to see, and after reading some stories I decided against it. Just as never behind stated there is no better way to search for a suit than trying them on and seeing what best fits your body.

In regards to the half canvassed suit options of Tailored Brands (the parent company of Men's Wearhouse and JAB). If you wait for an inevitable sale and buy their higher end model line (Joseph Abboud, Signature Gold, Reserve) you will get a decent half canvassed workhorse suit that if not abused and properly cared for could last you 7-10 plus years. In fact if you want to go with a made to measure option both of these companies are a great and affordable place to start with that adventure. The other thing I like about it is if you do purchase the MTM Joseph Abboud line at Men's Wearhouse or Custom Reserve line at JAB you are getting a garment made right here in the United States in Bedford Mass. I would say if you have a fairly standard body type and drop between chest size and trouser you could find a much better price buying off the peg than going MTM at not just these two stores but pretty much anywhere listed previously above.


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## Dcr5468 (Jul 11, 2015)

Rarely mentioned here but my first other than JAB I ever purchased was a local men’s store Jack Victor. Shoulders are a bit boxy but I find the construction good for the price point and a good men’s store will fit you properly for the suit. I believe they are the “store”brand for many independent stores. If you can wait, a Samuelsohn on sale is the way to go, I have purchased 2 for less than 400 each


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## Maljunulo (Jun 25, 2016)

If you go MTM you will be able to select fabrics which you probably won't see in off the peg stuff in the same price range.


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## Bishop of Briggs (Sep 7, 2007)

My American friends by JPress, Southwick and Hickey Freeman suits. O'Connell's Clothing has a huge range of Southwick, HF and own brand suits.


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

I purchased a navy blue and charcoal Samuelsohn for $325 each. 

Joseph Abboud Made in USA (Mens Wearhouse) for $135 each last Christmas. They had a sale recently with the same for around $100-150. They're half-canvas amd wear pretty well.

Ebay is good for deals, but requires patience. 

My nicest suits are the most expensive (belvest & isaia) though it's probably diminishing returns.


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## akwmek (Sep 12, 2017)

quality does improve as you go up


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## RaulM (Sep 5, 2016)

Jgarner197 said:


> I will second the mentioning of Samuelsohn. If you keep your eye out on Saks or Saks Off Fifth you should easily be able to pick up a suit for under 1k. In fact earlier this year I seem to recall a fellow member bought a few around $300 ish on discount at Saks. If you have a fairly easily attainable size and you can find something similar in price I don't think you could do much better than Samuelsohn.


Thanks!


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## some_dude (Nov 9, 2008)

I think it's worth mentioning that with MTM, and nicer fabrics, you end up with a much more comfortable suit. There's really no comparison on that aspect.


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## akwmek (Sep 12, 2017)

mens wearhouse sells joseph abboud suits, which is half canvass, italian wool, and made in usa, can be had for 300 or under


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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

akwmek said:


> mens wearhouse sells joseph abboud suits, which is half canvass, italian wool, and made in usa, can be had for 300 or under


Talked to Men's Wearhouse over the weekend. My local one said they don't have half canvassed suits (not to say that others won't). Unless Joseph Abbouds are all half canvas and the guy just didn't know what he was talking about?

Also looked into Joseph A Bank, but their shoulders seem to be pretty thick...


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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

jm22 said:


> I purchased a navy blue and charcoal Samuelsohn for $325 each.
> 
> Joseph Abboud Made in USA (Mens Wearhouse) for $135 each last Christmas. They had a sale recently with the same for around $100-150. They're half-canvas amd wear pretty well.
> 
> ...


Did you get the Samuelsohn online through Nordstrom, or in the store? The guy at Nordstrom said they never carried them. All the Samuelsohn ones online are pretty expensive. Guessing I just need to hit the after Christmas sale?


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

hiker said:


> Did you get the Samuelsohn online through Nordstrom, or in the store? The guy at Nordstrom said they never carried them. All the Samuelsohn ones online are pretty expensive. Guessing I just need to hit the after Christmas sale?


Saks online. Not Off5th.

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## TheBarbaron (Oct 8, 2010)

hiker said:


> Talked to Men's Wearhouse over the weekend. My local one said they don't have half canvassed suits (not to say that others won't). Unless Joseph Abbouds are all half canvas and the guy just didn't know what he was talking about?
> 
> Also looked into Joseph A Bank, but their shoulders seem to be pretty thick...


Yeah, he didn't know what he was talking about, which is an issue. 
*All* of the Joseph Abboud suits (nested suits, suit separates, and custom) are half-canvassed and made in the US. Many (not all) MW stores also carry some Jack Victor suits, which are half-canvassed and made in Canada.
Other Joseph Abboud products are not made in the US (dress slacks, sportcoats, shirts, casual wear), though I _believe_ the sportcoats are still half-canvassed - I can't confirm that offhand.

Jos A Bank suits do tend to have very structured shoulders, which may or may not fit you well. The Abboud suits are soft shouldered, which is generally preferred, though YMMV.


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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

TheBarbaron said:


> Yeah, he didn't know what he was talking about, which is an issue.
> *All* of the Joseph Abboud suits (nested suits, suit separates, and custom) are half-canvassed and made in the US. Many (not all) MW stores also carry some Jack Victor suits, which are half-canvassed and made in Canada.
> Other Joseph Abboud products are not made in the US (dress slacks, sportcoats, shirts, casual wear), though I _believe_ the sportcoats are still half-canvassed - I can't confirm that offhand.
> 
> Jos A Bank suits do tend to have very structured shoulders, which may or may not fit you well. The Abboud suits are soft shouldered, which is generally preferred, though YMMV.


Very helpful, thanks Barbaron!


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## jm22 (Apr 18, 2013)

Looks like Saks Off 5th has Samuelsohn suits for $424 plus 20% off. May be worth a look.

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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

jm22 said:


> Looks like Saks Off 5th has Samuelsohn suits for $424 plus 20% off. May be worth a look.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Man, didn't see your comment till tonight! Prices have gone way up again. Thanks for the heads up... :-/


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## RalphB (Nov 29, 2017)

My Dilemma had some of the items answered in forums but I wanted to write to see what you or whoever answers may specifically say...

I work as a sportscaster in NY. I have a wide variety of different roles and gigs I do, but I'm not on ESPN yet. 
Basically I need (and have needed) like 6-8 suits ASAP.

I have spent a good amount of time researching and talking to salespeople recently, from going to Karako Suits, visiting Suit Supply, Indochino.

I didnt buy suits for like 6 years basically because in Sept 2013 I was in a really bad car accident so couldnt go to the gym, then 2 yrs later suffered a shoulder injury from the rehab, so I just wasnt myself in terms of body gaining 5 lbs or so. So I've been efforting dropping that weight ever since as well as better shape by finally consistently GOING to the gym and feel I am finally ready to buy a load of new suits to have not just for on-air work but just to be seen well.

Indochino looks great in person and their online sales of the low $300s looked enticing. Suit Supply definitely had excellent quality with everything being half canvassed, but their cheapest would be around $400 per on the best deal of the year. I have not investigated Men's Wearhouse or Joseph A. Bank because I figure those are at best even with Karako Suits and they cannot beat the price of Karako so that would be a waste of time.

My current path I am leaning towards is doing the Karako Suits direction...
1- the price currently for their Executive Level suits is down to like $299 (these are usually $500). 
I spoke to an associate + facebook chat with whoever manages that, and they would give me Buy 1 get THREE suits free (they did this sale once, I inquired about it and they said theyd do it for me since I work in TV)
2- the executive level suits are 150s wool. I was just in essentially researching everything the other day. They also have 120s that look pretty good that are slightly cheaper. The name of the brand that nearly all of their Executive line are is called Naldini.
3-My guess is that the Karako suits, even Executive level, are all Fused suits -unless you have heard otherwise? I couldnt find this info out online, they dont seem to give out that info in a suit description.
Hopefully there are some New Yorkers/NJ on here that have shopped at Karako before. 

A more recent effort is towards investigating Suit Supply's frequency of online outlet sales and seeing how low do they exactly go, they allegedly do not have any sale prices EVER. And being in NY I can go into the Indochino store, get measured there and order right off the computer there with a salesman's assistance.

In balancing Volume of Suits, Quality, and Price, (will spend a little under $700 and come home with 8 suits). For outsiders I'm sure that seems stunning, but at Karako it's possible. 
What is your advice?


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## momsdoc (Sep 19, 2013)

RalphB said:


> My Dilemma had some of the items answered in forums but I wanted to write to see what you or whoever answers may specifically say...
> 
> I work as a sportscaster in NY. I have a wide variety of different roles and gigs I do, but I'm not on ESPN yet.
> Basically I need (and have needed) like 6-8 suits ASAP.
> ...


My advice,

You get what you pay for.

Even if a suit was manufactured for free, and shipped for free, the cost of the material is not free. The 3 1/2 yards of material needed will start at around $250 wholesale. That's for basic entry level suiting from a quality mill.

So who is going to stay in business taking a $150 loss and not paying for the manpower, overhead, shipping, etc? You can have child slave labor in Bangladesh make the suit, the mill still has to be paid.

Do the math. That's $85 per suit. Assume magical fairies deliver the suit for $5, the slaves manufacture it for $5, the overhead is $5 and the owner works for free. That leaves $70 for 3 1/2 yards of material, $20 a yard. What can it be made of? Even if it "fell of a truck" and ended up in a black market in Somalia you'll be paying more.

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

There's no free lunch.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

There's a sucker born every minute.

YOU GET WHAT YOU'VE PAID FOR.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^There is a veritable wealth of wisdom in that closing cluster of Cliches offered by momsdoc! Well done, my friend.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

I regularly see the Karako suits commercial on TV - and shudder. It is simply not possible to get acceptable quality at that price. It's almost like a cheap knock-off of Jos A Bank, which itself, etc. etc.


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## RalphB (Nov 29, 2017)

Agree with the premise - you get what you pay for etc. However has anyone actually here been to Karako, bought any of their suits and really done a comparison? I have and have been to the store recently to check in. 
I specifically had Karako Naldini suits about 6 years ago for a long time and there was no disaster, and I had bought their "lower end" ones, this time I'm looking at their most expensive.


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

RalphB said:


> Agree with the premise - you get what you pay for etc. However has anyone actually here been to Karako, bought any of their suits and really done a comparison? I have and have been to the store recently to check in.
> I specifically had Karako Naldini suits about 6 years ago for a long time and there was no disaster, and I had bought their "lower end" ones, this time I'm looking at their most expensive.


It looks like you've really got a Karako itch. So go ahead and scratch it.

In a way, you have nothing to lose. If, as could happen, the Karako suits fit you well and are comfortable--you win. And if they turn out to look and feel exactly like the cheap suits they are--you win. You'll win because you will have learned a big lesson about the consequences of buying cheap suits and ignoring good advice. You'll be out some money, of course, but, as the saying goes, it won't be a loss, not really, because it will be tuition in the school of life.

I have no experience with Karako. However, in 1969 I went and saw the exciting movie "Krakatoa-East of Java." Does that count?


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## fishertw (Jan 27, 2006)

SG_67 said:


> Perhaps Brooks Brothers 1818 suits don't represent the pinnacle of craftsmanship, but they are a solid value when purchased during one of their sales. I wouldn't necessarily consider them over-priced relative to their quality peers.


I agree with SG 67 here. I have two BB 1818 Madison fit workhorse suits, and although retired and not wearing suits very often, they have held up in both style and substance for 6-8 years. On sale, you can come in at near the $1000 range for two if you shop carefully.


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## JBierly (Jul 4, 2012)

I must say that 100 dollars a suit seems ridiculously inexpensive. Consider that the fabric for a high grade suit can run as much as 2000 dollars. This is where the purported S numbers really must be meaningless.


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## StephenRG (Apr 7, 2005)

Charles Dana said:


> I have no experience with Karako. However, in 1969 I went and saw the exciting movie "Krakatoa-East of Java." Does that count?


As Krakatoa is to the west of Java, it may indeed count


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## Charles Dana (Nov 20, 2006)

StephenRG said:


> As Krakatoa is to the west of Java, it may indeed count


That's right: the title of the movie is a blooper.


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## Dcr5468 (Jul 11, 2015)

hiker said:


> Did you get the Samuelsohn online through Nordstrom, or in the store? The guy at Nordstrom said they never carried them. All the Samuelsohn ones online are pretty expensive. Guessing I just need to hit the after Christmas sale?


Sign up for Saks emails. Last spring they had a 75% off flash sale for 1 day, I think I paid 325 for a Samuelsohn

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## hiker (Aug 11, 2017)

Dcr5468 said:


> Sign up for Saks emails. Last spring they had a 75% off flash sale for 1 day, I think I paid 325 for a Samuelsohn
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'll do that, thanks Dcr.


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## Dhaller (Jan 20, 2008)

It's probably been mentioned, but if fabric is half a suit's worth, then fit must be the other half: save some of that money for quality tailoring.

A cheap suit which fits well is going to look better than an expensive suit which doesn't (to me, the principle hazard of ordering clothes online).

Like many here, I'm a Samuelsohn man. I get them MTM, preferably when the trunk show is in town, and while I'm a pretty textbook 40L, that extra attention to fit afforded by a good tailor is everything.

But a Brookscool or the like, snapped up on sale, is fine, but be willing to put some time into having it fitted really well (meaning, be willing to make multiple visits until it's perfect.) Probably 80% of men buy a suit, have it fitted there at the store, and then pick it up a week later and take it home - don't be those guys. First fitting, find what needs improving (there is something), and again a week later if necessary. It probably takes at least three fittings to get a suit right. And don't be afraid to be demanding! The tailor isn't a mind-reader, so he appreciates the feedback.

DH


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## pkincy (Feb 9, 2006)

If possible, please look around for a better suit. Samuelsohn and BB have been mentioned quite a bit here. I have had BB and they are very acceptable both in a conservative style and quality. My value favorite is Samuelsohn. I think it is a great suit at its price point. Which at normal prices hits that $1000 range. I do have a number of Samuelsohn suits that I wear regularly and fit well in my rotation. And they wear well all day and hold up nicely. Although a bit down on cloth from my other suits (all are substantially more expensive generally) and maybe not quite the quality of the others, they really do fit in nicely in the very high quality range.


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