# Vicious Dogs in Michigan



## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

In rural Livingston county, some American Bulldogs got out of their pen. They mauled a 57 year old lady jogger and a 91 year old neighbor man to death.

Outside her property, the witch that owned the dogs had a sign that said that her land was maintained for the convenience and comfort of her animals. If you don't like it, go someplace else. (Not quoted.)

The witch that owned the dogs has a farm. Even though a license is required to own more than 3 dogs in her area, she owned ten.

I'm not usually in favor of the law suit lottery, but I hope the victims' families clean this witch out. The authorities are still deciding whether to press criminal charges.

I simply don't understand why people feel they have the need and the right to have dogs that present a danger to people. I know that many say pit bulls (not the culprits in this case) are sweet, wonderful dogs. It would not hurt my feelings if these dogs were banned and the mere ownership was a crime. Get a beagle or a purse dog (unless you are going to be truly responsible and make sure your pet is NOT a danger to others.)


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

John Blackwell, who was one of the leading breeders of ABs for many years, told me a major reason he got out of the breed was the fact that a lot of breeders were breeding their dogs for schutzhund and other kinds of sleeve work and producing crazy dogs. He will not be surprised about this incident.

That said, most of the ABs I've met have been pleasant, docile animals. One I met in my neighborhood--I think it was a Billy Hines dog--was so nice and got along so well with my little b#tch Jessie that I invited him into my yard so the two could romp together.

The most knowledgeable of my dog buddies had some ABs at one time, but he was unimpressed. "Shells of Pit Bulls," he called them.


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

Aren't you Americans allowed to possess weapons? If the killed jogger had been my wife, I would have gone in there in order to be attacked by the dogs, shot the whole lot in self-defence and "accidentally" hit the owner of the dogs as well.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Most of us don't. Both victims left families behind who have been devastated by this. The witch who owned the dogs isn't saying anything.


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## BertieW (Jan 17, 2006)

Is she an actual witch (i.e. wiccan), or are you just using that term loosely? The story, while gruesome enough already, would grow even more interesting if she was really a witch.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

We have edits the prevent me from typing the word I would use (although there would be unintended irony if I did that.) I don't know much about her, but you had to see the picture of the sign on the property to give you a clue as to how unconcerned she probably is.

There was no need for her to keep 10 vicious (or potentially vicious) dogs on her premises.

I do not know if (but have to reason to think that) she is a witch or wiccan. 

Somehow, I think this gruesome story stands on its own without further titillating twists.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Maybe people should carry around with them a shockstick or some pepperspray for just in case they run into danger,they'd have that handy.


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> John Blackwell, who was one of the leading breeders of ABs for many years, told me a major reason he got out of the breed was the fact that a lot of breeders were breeding their dogs for schutzhund and other kinds of sleeve work and producing crazy dogs. He will not be surprised about this incident.
> 
> That said, most of the ABs I've met have been pleasant, docile animals. One I met in my neighborhood--I think it was a Billy Hines dog--was so nice and got along so well with my little b#tch Jessie that I invited him into my yard so the two could romp together.
> 
> The most knowledgeable of my dog buddies had some ABs at one time, but he was unimpressed. "Shells of Pit Bulls," he called them.


I have to take issue with the comment on Schutzhund. In Germany, every German Shepherd has to have passed a Schutzhund test in order to be bred. Part of what the test does is allow the breeder to test whether or not the dog has the temperment and is stable enough to work and deal with stressful situations. A Schutzhund dog is the furthest thing from "crazy" that you can imagine. Put it this way, there are more German Shepherds in Germany than there are AB's in the US- Somehow the fact that virtually every one of them has been bred for Schutzhund should tell us that training a dog or breeding dogs for Schutzhund doesn't make the dog crazy.

I could probably count on my fingers the number of legitimate Schutzhund titles that have been earned by AB's in the US (or the world for that matter)

The problem that I see with AB (and pit bull) owners is that too often they come from the group that wants a dog that is "the toughest dog on the block". They are usually woefully misinformed about dog breeding, dog psychology and dog training -something that in combination with big, aggressive dogs leads to disaster.

It's pretty obvious from reading the info on this incident that the woman had created a pack (any group of dogs like an AB that has 3 or more members) is going to take on very traditional pack dynamics. It is something that experienced dog people know better than to allow.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

One of the advantages of living so close to my parents is the fact that we can participate in silly little activities together, lately, I've been meeting my mother at the local dog park, she has two dogs, a 25 Lb Boston Terrier (pretty big for a Bostie) and a 12 Lb. Mini Schnauzer, both of these little dogs love running and playing with dogs much bigger than them, a few days ago, we were at the dog park and somebody showed up with a Pit, obviously, you get a little nervous about your little 12 Lb peanut and her 25 lb "sister" when somebody lets 85 Lbs of pure muscle and energy loose, but to be honest, that Pit was one of the nicest, most well behaved dogs at the whole dog park...The reason I use this example is because dogs that typically have a reputation for being "mean" or "tough" or "bad" don't necessarily have to be that way, a dog is a big responsibility, people think that the only expenses involved are buying the animal, then paying for shots and _maybe_ a license...I don't think outlawing any certain breeds is fair or even right, in a way it's discriminating against those who do raise their dogs responsibly...I heard a story recently about a drug dealer who kept a pit chained up in his yard, aparently this dog was mean as hell...gee...I wonder if being chained up in a yard all day had anything to do with it, anyway, the dog was so strong, that it was able to free it's self and get out of the yard, it ended up attacking a little girl, when animal control was called, the guy spent a good while trying to catch the dog with the snare, but when he was almost attacked, he ended up having to shoot it, so here we have an example of a child getting injured and a dog being killed all because some dope dealing @$$hole had insecurities about his small penis or somehting, and needed to show the world what a "man" he was with a big bad dog in his yard, had he been a responsible pet owner, and tought that dog obedience from the time he was a pup, then taken him on regular walks once a day, I guarantee that the animal would not have been mean, and all of this could have been avoided...it seems to me the above mentioned story is similar, here we have an irresponsible piece of trash who neglects her animals, they become mean, and tragedy follows...any animal can be made to be mean, I've met some poodles that would try to take your hand off if you went to pet them, so it's not the breed...it's the owner...so here's what I propose, a license that you can only get by pre-paying for an obedience course, the license would then be sent in in upon completion of the course, and you would recieve a special tag, just like the current one you get for your dogs, only this one would indicate that the animal has indeed completed the required amount of obedience training. I know this wouldnt solve the problem, but it would certainly be a detourrent to those knuckle heads who just want a dog that they can turn into a killing machine...


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I agree that the selfish, irresponsible owner is more the problem than the dog.

However, an out-of-control Pekinese make ruin a pair of slacks or something. These big dogs can kill people and do sometimes.

At a minimum, maybe there should be a law that if your dog kills someone unless if is clearly justified, you go up on manslaughter charges, even if you did not order the attack. If your dog bites someone, you are personally up for an assault and battery trial.


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## The Gabba Goul (Feb 11, 2005)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> I agree that the selfish, irresponsible owner is more the problem than the dog.
> 
> However, an out-of-control Pekinese make ruin a pair of slacks or something. These big dogs can kill people and do sometimes.
> 
> At a minimum, maybe there should be a law that if your dog kills someone unless if is clearly justified, you go up on manslaughter charges, even if you did not order the attack. If your dog bites someone, you are personally up for an assault and battery trial.


Oh, I aggree 100%...to me, it's all about owners taking responsibility for their animals...


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## TweedyDon (Aug 31, 2007)

forsbergacct2000 said:


> IAt a minimum, maybe there should be a law that if your dog kills someone unless if is clearly justified, you go up on manslaughter charges, even if you did not order the attack. If your dog bites someone, you are personally up for an assault and battery trial.


That sounds like a very, very sensible approach to me.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

ChicagoTrad said:


> I have to take issue with the comment on Schutzhund. In Germany, every German Shepherd has to have passed a Schutzhund test in order to be bred. Part of what the test does is allow the breeder to test whether or not the dog has the temperment and is stable enough to work and deal with stressful situations. A Schutzhund dog is the furthest thing from "crazy" that you can imagine. Put it this way, there are more German Shepherds in Germany than there are AB's in the US- Somehow the fact that virtually every one of them has been bred for Schutzhund should tell us that training a dog or breeding dogs for Schutzhund doesn't make the dog crazy.


Figured somebody would say something like this. I am well aware that Schutzhund was developed for the GSD. Training other breeds for Schutzhund and manwork may not result so well. That said, it is my belief that a lot of GSDs from Schutzhund lines are way too much dog--high drive and high dominance. As a matter of interest, I was walking by a GSD a few hours ago and it lunged, growling at me. Luckily, it was restrained by its owner.


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## crazyquik (Jun 8, 2005)

Albert said:


> Aren't you Americans allowed to possess weapons? If the killed jogger had been my wife, I would have gone in there in order to be attacked by the dogs, shot the whole lot in self-defence and "accidentally" hit the owner of the dogs as well.


I know several bicyclist and walkers who carry a pistol. Since there are "mauled by pitbull" headlines in an American paper somewhere nearly every day it's pretty easy to justifibly claim self defense against them.

Our police forces shoot a lot of dogs too. I also know one who shot a cow that was standing in the road because it wouldn't move.

Gunslingin cowboys, that we are.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

crazyquik said:


> I know several bicyclist and walkers who carry a pistol. Since there are "mauled by pitbull" headlines in an American paper somewhere nearly every day it's pretty easy to justifibly claim self defense against them.
> 
> Gunslingin cowboys, that we are.


As a matter of fact, in the late 19th and the early decades of the 20th century, there was a type of small-caliber, cheap revolver known as the "Velo Dog" because it was designed specifically for bicyclists to carry and use against vicious dogs. It was strictly a Continental European gun, made mostly in France and Belgium, maybe also Spain and Germany (although I am not positive about the latter two.) I guess everyone wants to have a bit of the "gunslinging cowboy" in him when 90 pounds of fangs and muscle are charging at you.


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> Figured somebody would say something like this. I am well aware that Schutzhund was developed for the GSD. Training other breeds for Schutzhund and manwork may not result so well. That said, it is my belief that a lot of GSDs from Schutzhund lines are way too much dog--high drive and high dominance. As a matter of interest, I was walking by a GSD a few hours ago and it lunged, growling at me. Luckily, it was restrained by its owner.


You are right that some are too much dog WITH a qualifier - they are too much dog for the typical dog owner who doesn't learn to train them and understand what it takes to train them. However, a dog like that is a necessity if you need a working K9 or a truly reliable protection dog.

It's not so much Schutzhund as the style of training to get the dog to do the work (in reality most dogs think of Schutzhund as play and wouldn't consider biting a real person just because they bite a sleeve). People who do older Koehler style training (fight or flight to cause them to bite) are often going to end up with a lot of unstable dogs - similar to the problems you have with dogs that have poor nerves to begin with. Similarly, if you try to train a dog that doesn't have enough drive and isn't dominant enough, you will almost certainly end up with an unstable dog - because you have to almost exclusively use defensive training to get results. This is the essential problem of the AB - they usually don't have the prey drive to do a good foundation and there has been almost no emphasis on the temperment and nerve of the dogs for a long time meaning that they don't exactly have a bullet-proof attitude.

Finally, your anectode about the GSD lunging at you tells me next to nothing. As a breed, the GSD is a number of different types (almost like different breeds themselves). If anything, I'd guess it was a stupid american bred, AKC pet with shaky nerves who got aggressive because of fear. It's one of the problems when you take working breeds away from the working tests - you might still have some of the instinct and genetics to do the work (and the size and strength), but you no longer have a "fail safe" to help guarantee that the dog retains the temperment and nerve to handle the stress (or any stress for that matter). This all means the dog can be driven to a 'fight or flight' decision over things that really aren't that stressful.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

ChicagoTrad, you are obviously an experienced, knowledgeable dog man. (There's one guy on Style Forum who is also very knowledgeable--you wouldn't be one and the same, would you? Apologies if that is a breach of Netiquette!) I was a little brief in my last response because my stepson wanted me to sign off so he could work on the computer. 

Just a few thoughts: Schutzhund and similar pursuits (e.g., French Ringsport, KNPV) were developed for the large European herding breeds like the GSD and similar breeds like the Malinois or the Dutch Shepherd. Much of the training involves "cur bopping" with humans as the "curs" (I assume you are familiar with these terms) as a matter of confidence building.

When you take a fighting dog like the APBT or Tosa that has a very high aggression potential toward other dogs but has been selectively bred for a very low aggression potential toward humans and try to redirect that aggression potential toward humans, you are very likely, IMO, to create a dangerous and crazy dog. Presumably this would hold for the AB, which I believe is just a sort of bandog.

Moreover, a key to all protection training, I know, is a very solid "out" or "off" command. (Don't know the German. "Aus," maybe?) Now your bull breeds, including the APBT and the Tosa and presumably the AB, are bred to obey "The Law of the Jaw": "Don't Let Go." They are very hard dogs to "out," and for this reason I don't think they are good candidates for Schutzhund and similar activities.

Just mentioned the matter with the GSD as a matter of interest. I once commented to a trainer I've worked with extensively that in our local obedience classes that I've had my dogs in, the Sheps weren't that impressive, somewhat to my surprise, given their reputation for high trainability. She replied, "Most American-bred Shepherds are garbage." And she had owned GSDs!


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

Hi JLibourel,

Unfortunately, I'm not the guy on Style Forum. However, I do have a good bit of experience with dog training and with animals in general. I grew up on a farm in Nebraska, and have a 4 year old GSD that I imported from Germany at 10 wks of age. He's not titled yet (marriage and consulting have taken too much of my time), but he is already prepared for his French Ring Brevet and FR I titles and would be ready for his Schutzhund I pretty quickly if I had the time.

It is very sad, but what your trainer friend said was quite true - most american bred GSD's are garbage. Or even worse than that, they are dangerous to have around because of their shaky nerves and temperment. Which is all pretty much why I imported my pup from a breeder in Germany known for dogs balanced for show and work, and who titles all of her own dogs herself (she has titled over 300 dogs in Schutzhund and raised dogs that have competed in the German conformation championships and the working championships - including one dog who placed very highly in both to earn the "universal sieger" title)

I'm not certain about "cur bopping"? - it is probably a different term from what I know. However, my philosophy on this training (and probably the one generally followed by reputable trainers and breeders) is that a dog that is trained for this needs to first have a rock-stable temperment and to be well socialized from its days as a pup. An unstable dog is nothing more than a huge liability waiting to happen, and, in fact, the purpose of the Schutzhund as a breeding test for the GSD in Germany is partly to ensure that unstable dogs are weeded out of the bloodlines.

The second rule I believe is that a dog that does not have a reasonably high level of prey drive should not be trained in this work. Prey drive is basically the urge of the dog to chase and grab something that is moving (similar to them chasing a rabbit). If the dog is guided to chase and grab a tug or a ball, it becomes an invaluable way of training the dog, both for the bitework and for obedience. It is also a drive that is fun for the dog and relieves stress. The idea is that you use the prey drive to build the obedience and teach the dog how to react to protection scenarios or the training in Schutzhund. Many dogs that do Schutzhund are taught entirely with prey drive, and the dogs think of it entirely as a game. Much as a kid thinks of his karate class. That does not mean that you can take it that far and depend on the dog to react the right way in a real threat - just as the kid in the karate class isn't ready to jump in a police cruiser and chase someone down an alley to make an arrest because of what he learned there. Prey is really a foundation and nothing more.

The next step, for working k9's or protection dogs, is to work the dog in defensive drive - or in situations where the dog believes there to be a realistic threat. The purpose of the prey drive work is to teach the dog how to respond to these situations and to give it the confidence to deal with it - also the prey work teaches the dog to remain obedient when working.

If a dog doesn't have sufficient (or any) prey drive, some trainers will try to go directly to the defensive work, work that can also bring out social aggression,- something that tends to be very dangerous and makes unstable dogs. As you note about APBT or Tosas, you have dogs that rarely have sufficient prey drive to do defensive work, but their high levels of social aggression, especially toward other dogs, and can make them more than a little crazy.

Something a lot of people don't realize about the prey training is that it relieves stress for the dog, it really is fun and satisfying for them. If a dog is trained totally in defense (like the APBT's and Tosas or Cane Corsos etc.) are trained they never have a chance to release the stress that builds up - it truly can make them unstable as mentally they can't handle that stress over time. What is strange is that there are dogs that are non-shepherd dogs that can do this work. In Europe Rottweilers, Boxer and even Great Danes can do the work, and are not unstable like the AB's and APBT's.

These dogs are also not very obedient- as you say, they don't AUS, but it's really a biddability issue - they weren't bred/selected to be obedient in the first place, and there is no reason to expect them to suddenly become that way. I personally can't imagine owning a dog that doesn't bond with me and that doesn't want to listen to me. 

Unfortunately, if some of these people went to a quality Schutzhund or French Ring trainer, they'd see that their dogs aren't suitable for the work and work to make them reliable, obedient pets. Certainly, just about any of those trainers would help the idiots to realize they shouldn't keep 10 of them being a fence, or tied up in the yard... 

For my purposed, I couldn't imagine a better companion than our GSD. He is sweet and loveble and incredibly intelligent, and is great with visitors and with my nieces and nephews. My wife at 106lbs, can control him as well... but I also know that if push came to shove (we live in the city) he would be more than capable of taking care of her.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Thank you for the lengthy and intelligent disquistion. Not much that I can add. You certainly know your dogs.

"Cur bopping" is a term for a practice of lowlife pitbull owners of letting their dog fight a dog of a non-game breed for the sadistic fun of it. Serious dogmen do not approve at all of it. Aside from the sheer cruelty of it--although sometimes the "curs" can be pretty rough customers--it instills a false confidence and sloppy fighting habits. I used the term because I think in most bitework and agitation training, the humans are the "curs." They let the dog get the sleeve and always "win," to build the dog's confidence.

The only one of the bull & mastiff breeds I have intimate experience with is the Tosa. Unlike many of the mastiff breeds, Tosas often have extremely high prey drives. My first Tosa, imported directly from the Japanese fighting association, had medium-high prey drive, I'd say. His daughter and grandson both had intense prey drives. His great-grandaughter, whom I presently own, has almost zero prey drive--pretty much indifferent to balls, squirrels and cats, unlike her predecessors. 

Tosas also do very well in basic, companion obedience. I have heard of Tosas earning CD's and Sch B's. I know of no Tosas earning an advanced title except for one b#tch that took a Sch I. She is (or was, haven't talked to her owner in awhile) a very sweet, outgoing dog. As a general matter, I am strongly opposed to any aggression training for Tosas and similar breeds, as I have previously noted.

Again, thanks for your informative post.


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## android (Dec 8, 2004)

Our standard poodle can kick any of these bulldogs and pitbulls asses. 

He will start discussing Descartes or Voltaire with them and they pass out from boredom.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Standard Poodles can be pretty tough customers. My wife had two Standards when we started dating in October of '93. In May '94 they had a terrific battle that resulted in the losing b#tch having to be put down. The victorious b#tch bullied my first Tosa puppy quite a bit until she showed her who was boss when he was about six months old. Thereafter they became good pals. Later the poodle was very cruel to my first female Tosa, Jessie. Eventually, Jessie decided it was payback time and damn near killed the poodle. We had to separate them until the poodle died a couple of years later. Jessie only lasted about five months longer than the Poodle before bloat got her too.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm not a dog/animal person so take my perspective for what you will but why should it not be illegal to own/breed pitbulls? Have they not eaten enough children?? This summer 2 of the kids I work with were riding their bikes around and were bitten pretty severely on the ankle by pb's. Now in both cases the owner's were idiots and didnt even make sure the dogs had their shots so both kids needed raibees (sp) injections. Assuming the world never runs out of idiot owners, wouldn't everyone be safer if they had golden retrievers? What would be the downside?

MrR


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

MrRogers said:


> I'm not a dog/animal person so take my perspective for what you will but why should it not be illegal to own/breed pitbulls? Have they not eaten enough children?? This summer 2 of the kids I work with were riding their bikes around and were bitten pretty severely on the ankle by pb's. Now in both cases the owner's were idiots and didnt even make sure the dogs had their shots so both kids needed raibees (sp) injections. Assuming the world never runs out of idiot owners, wouldn't everyone be safer if they had golden retrievers? What would be the downside?
> 
> MrR


A few of our neighboring towns have bans on many of the aggressive breeds of dogs. Ours does not, but I have never seen any APBT or similar dogs in our town. Labs, retrievers or small breeds seem to be the most popular around here. We have a Chessie.


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## Kav (Jun 19, 2005)

Domestic animals are the end result of selective breeding. Let me tell a story. the Nez Perce of the Wallowa Valley in Washington State bred the famed Palouse, or Appalosa horse. This was a gracile breed, not unlike arabs noted for it's colouring, broom tail, endurance and disposition. Most readers know the sad story of the Nez Perce. Those horses were treated as war material and largely shot by the U S Army. A few survivors were outbred to produce a chunk drafthorse for farming. An even fewer number were fortunately collected and mostly preserve the true breeding. The late singer Tennesee Earnie Ford was a noted breeder of the old appie.Today, most appies are nothing more than a quarterhorse with a rug, horsespeak for flashy markings: The goal in breeding to other's detriment. And here is the supreme irony. I board with an old style appy breeder and love the breed. This horse came in. I was asked to work with it, having a reputation of calming horses down so 'better' horsemen can make them perform. The horse was without a doubt the nastiest creature I ever encountered. I talked with the owner who proudly boasted of it being a papered Nez Perce Appaloosa sport horse. I immediately quit. What the contemporary Nez Perce have done is cross appies with Akhel-Tek stallions. These are famed desert endurance horses from the northern border country of Iran and the former USSR republics. They are incredible endurance horses noted for a stunning golden metallic haircoat. They also exhibit several conformational flaws that would send any other breed to the killers. One more trait; They are universally agreed to be the most ill tempered breed that was ever bred. Anybody, including noble savage horse whisperers can and will produce product. The chinese aren't the only people painting with lead.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

MrRogers said:


> I'm not a dog/animal person so take my perspective for what you will but why should it not be illegal to own/breed pitbulls? Have they not eaten enough children?? This summer 2 of the kids I work with were riding their bikes around and were bitten pretty severely on the ankle by pb's. Now in both cases the owner's were idiots and didnt even make sure the dogs had their shots so both kids needed raibees (sp) injections. Assuming the world never runs out of idiot owners, wouldn't everyone be safer if they had golden retrievers? What would be the downside?
> 
> MrR


With any popular dog breed, you are likely to get a fair number of bad 'uns. I have met a great many pit bulls that were total sweethearts! Oh yeah, a vicious Golden Retriever charged and attacked Jessie, my little love-dog. Of course, Jessie had the vicious Golden screaming in anguish in a matter of seconds. Fortunately, I was able to pry Jessie's jaws off without discernible damage to the Golden. An ER nurse I befriended said that of the dog bite cases she got, Goldens were the third most common breed after Pits and Rotts. One of my trainer friends said she was seeing a lot of fight-crazed, vicious Goldens these days. I was not surprised.


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## MrRogers (Dec 10, 2005)

JLibourel said:


> One of my trainer friends said she was seeing a lot of fight-crazed, vicious Goldens these days. I was not surprised.


Ok but i'm curious how many goldens there are vs pitbulls. Its kind of like the toyota camry being the most commonly stolen car; they're also the most popular cars sold.

MrR


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

MrRogers said:


> Ok but i'm curious how many goldens there are vs pitbulls. Its kind of like the toyota camry being the most commonly stolen car; they're also the most popular cars sold.
> 
> MrR


The information around this seems to be pretty sketchy - I believe that in Chicago the most popular breeds by part of the city were - Labs and Goldens on the north side of the city, Pits and Rottweilers on the south side. Not sure where I read that article though, will try to find it.


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## Frank aka The Minotaur (Nov 12, 2004)

Howard said:


> Maybe people should carry around with them a shockstick or some pepperspray for just in case they run into danger,they'd have that handy.


I used to carry pepper spray when running and biking. There were times I had it cocked and ready for use.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

Howard actually has good advice if you jog regularly. The old man who was killed was just doing work in his yard, though.

The real solution is for people to be responsible for their dogs.

I hope this lady gets nailed with criminal charges and I hope the families of the deceased totally clean her out financially with a lawsuit.


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Frank aka The Minotaur said:


> I used to carry pepper spray when running and biking. There were times I had it cocked and ready for use.


The shockstick would be effective but I don't know how pepperspray is effective towards a dog,Won't the dog be blinded for the moment?


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

A fellow I know tried to break up a Tosa fight between two young males using pepper spray. He let them have it right in their faces. It had no effect. The dogs continued fighting as furiously as ever. And these dogs were little more than puppies--only about 10 months old.


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

Howard said:


> The shockstick would be effective but I don't know how pepperspray is effective towards a dog,Won't the dog be blinded for the moment?


Pepper spray might give you a little time depending on the dog. There are also walking sticks that people can get that are made of hardened steel, on a lot of dogs a good whack in the face is an excellent deterrent. I know of people who walk in areas where there are a lot of off leash dogs who carry pepper spray and that sort of walking stick. There is also good advice on the www.leerburg.com site on what to do in case of dog attacks.

I recently had an encounter with a young male rottie (maybe 2-3 yrs old) who got out of his yard and ran down the street to get to me and my GSD. I'd seen the dog before, saw his body language wasn't strong, squared up to him and said in a deep, loud voice, "NO, go home!" .. then walked back to his yard, pointed him into the yard and shut the gate. Was a pretty fortunate incident, but keeping your composure is the first rule about anything like that.


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## ChicagoTrad (Feb 19, 2007)

JLibourel said:


> A fellow I know tried to break up a Tosa fight between two young males using pepper spray. He let them have it right in their faces. It had no effect. The dogs continued fighting as furiously as ever. And these dogs were little more than puppies--only about 10 months old.


Tosas are a acquired skill from what I can tell. You have my respect - they are a lot of dog to deal with.

The best advice I've heard is if you can leash one to a wall, fence or post. Pick up the other dog by the back legs and walk backwards until you are past the end of the other's leash. Freaks them out to pick them up that way and often takes their mind off the fight. Sometimes a waterhose works. I've also heard the pepper spray doesn't work so well for dog fights. Supposedly it works better for dog/person attacks - I like to think Multilayered defense - have as many things with you as possible


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

I think by far the easiest way to break up a pair of dogs that are both eager combatants is with two people and a pair of breaking sticks. Getting someone to help you may be tough, though. Otherwise, tying up one of the dogs may be best. I always carry a breaking stick when I walk one of my Tosas (although I have only had a single Tosa since October 28, 2002, when I had to put Jessie down for bloat.)


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## Laxplayer (Apr 26, 2006)

This stuff is supposed to work on bears. I'd guess it would work for dogs also. https://www.udap.com/product.htm


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

Bears do not fight with the single-minded fury of an intense dog. If any of you saw the documentary "Grizzly Man" about the late Timothy Treadwell, there was an impressive sequence of two huge male brown bears fighting. Although their power was awesome, the fight was a tame affair compared to fighting dogs going at...and even dogs of non-fighting breeds. When my wife first saw videos of Tosas fighting, she said they seemed tame and "civilized" compared to the frenzied ferocity displayed by her two poodles going at it.

That may explain the difference in the effectiveness of these pepper sprays on the two animals.


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## guitone (Mar 20, 2005)

I have been in veterinary offices almost every work day for the past 22 years and I can tell you that most of the problems indeed the owners. What we have a either the owner who baby talks their dog, or the owner who has a spike collar on their dog ( a vast generalization), but the point is that dog owners are generally the problem. Even knowing this i do not trust a pit because I cannot trust the owner. I was in a clinic not long ago and a woman had an English Cocker Spaniel that almost tore her hand off, and she tolerated this. And yes, there are some crazy goldens, more crazy German Shepherds and still more totally nutty dogs of every size and breed. Most dog owners just do not know how to handle what they have, a sad situation but a reality. Still the problem remains, what do we do when we have a situation where a dog harms a person or is on that might. I do not think the law can try to protect us from a dog that MIGHT harm someone, and they certainly in my opinion do not always act as quickly as they should on a dog that has harmed a person. I found the pack mentality post very interesting, and while this woman may not be a witch per say she is indeed a menace and that is in my opinion the crux of the matter. So how do we deal with crazy people that endanger us with their even crazier pets?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

ChicagoTrad said:


> Pepper spray might give you a little time depending on the dog. There are also walking sticks that people can get that are made of hardened steel, on a lot of dogs a good whack in the face is an excellent deterrent. I know of people who walk in areas where there are a lot of off leash dogs who carry pepper spray and that sort of walking stick. There is also good advice on the www.leerburg.com site on what to do in case of dog attacks.
> 
> I recently had an encounter with a young male rottie (maybe 2-3 yrs old) who got out of his yard and ran down the street to get to me and my GSD. I'd seen the dog before, saw his body language wasn't strong, squared up to him and said in a deep, loud voice, "NO, go home!" .. then walked back to his yard, pointed him into the yard and shut the gate. Was a pretty fortunate incident, but keeping your composure is the first rule about anything like that.


I think vicious dogs might eat the pepperspray cause maybe they'll think it's some sort of doggie treat or something like that.


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## Frank aka The Minotaur (Nov 12, 2004)

Howard said:


> Won't the dog be blinded for the moment?


Yes, sort of but there is no lasting effect. I saw a human being pepper sprayed, and it does appear to sting. You can't open your eyes, and it makes them tear.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

I foolishly got cayenne pepper in my eyes once while eating pizza in a restaurant. (There was some dust from the pepper on my hand and I rubbed my eyes. This was NOT one of my prouder life moments.)

It stings nastily. I would think that unless it actually got in the dog's eyes there would be no effect. It would not surprise me if the dog's fighting adrenaline would trump any effects of stinging eyes in a dog.

In people, I can attest that it is simply AWFUL. The was a really nasty hour trying to rinse that awful stuff on my eye. Folks, keep your cayenne pepper on your food, off your hands and out of your eyes!!! LOL (ironic)


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

People react differently to pepper spray:

I can recall one day at Petersen Publishing inquisitively letting loose a blast from a pepper spray canister in our basement office. Dave Arnold and all the women fled, choking, gasping and weeping. They didn't return for an hour or so. Garry James and I just continued working at our desks. The residual pepper spray seemed a little bothersome, but nothing too bad. I am sure if either of us had gotten it square in the face, it would have been different.

Another time, when my stepson was still a little boy, I let him have it square in the face--at his request, to test a gas mask he was wearing. My wife was just stepping outdoors and got a whiff of the pepper spray cloud and gasping and strongly affected. I didn't seem to bother me at all, but maybe the breeze was right. That's one of the risks of pepper spray--it can blow back in your face.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

guitone said:


> I have been in veterinary offices almost every work day for the past 22 years and I can tell you that most of the problems indeed the owners. What we have a either the owner who baby talks their dog, or the owner who has a spike collar on their dog ( a vast generalization), but the point is that dog owners are generally the problem.


Well, I baby talk my dogs, and I have spiked collars for them! Make of that what you will. Actually, my present dog can't wear a flat collar. Her neck is so massive in proportion to her feminine head a flat collar will slip right off if she's being balky.


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## flylot74 (Jul 26, 2007)

*pit bulls, rotties, et al*

The problem I have often found with the so called "vicious" dogs is that the owners who at most are bordering sociopaths to begin with, have little or no assets for you to recover in a law suit if you are attacked by their "little darlings".

Grateful to be in a state that allows us to conceal firearms, I and my wife will not hesitate in dispatching an animal that we perceive will attack. That includes the human variety as well....


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## Albert (Feb 15, 2006)

JLi,

Jolly brave, I must say. Are you sure that your experiments complied with Health & Safety? Please let me know in due course. Letting loose a can (or even better: large barrel) of pepper spray in the office is on of my wet dreams. 

Cheers,
A.


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## Acct2000 (Sep 24, 2005)

This woman owns a farm - - at least for now.


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## flylot74 (Jul 26, 2007)

Well in Texas, I believe a farm is classified a homestead and is protected from lawsuits and bankruptcy (sort of, I think the state can take it away for taxes). I'm not sure about anyplace else, no lawyer here..... 

However, farms are notoriously over leveraged. She may owe more on the farm (technically a business) that the land and fixed assets are worth.

Any lawyers out there care to expound on this?


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## Howard (Dec 7, 2004)

Frank aka The Minotaur said:


> Yes, sort of but there is no lasting effect. I saw a human being pepper sprayed, and it does appear to sting. You can't open your eyes, and it makes them tear.


I think the dogs just run away cause they know that something is coming their way so dogs know to back off.


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