# The Alden Bal - no respect ?



## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

It seems that many retailers that champion Alden loafers and bluchers have very little respect for the Alden bal. Brooks Brothers tends to feature the Peal bals, Ben Silver wants us to buy Crocket and Jones. Even our very own Leather Soul turns his back on the lowly Alden bal in favor of Edward Greens.

Now, I own a pair of Hampton last Aldens (winged bal) and I think it's a fine shoe. I don't understand why it's not good enough for these fine merchants to promote a bit more enthusiastically.

Any ideas? Yes, Tom, I'm talking to you.


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## abc123 (Jun 4, 2006)

Doesn't Alden make the Brooks Peal line? They're made in the US, so I sort of figured they did...of course, I could be completely wrong. Anyways, I do like the Aldens, but prefer C&J for most shoes.


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## Luckyguy (Jul 20, 2006)

*Alden bal 907*

I have a pair of Alden 907, a black calf captoe bal, that I like a lot and it's one of my workhorse. I have AE park ave as well. But it seems to me AE park ave gets all the attention as far as a good value captoe bal goes. Perhaps, your impression is right that Alden bals do not get enough repect.

~Alex


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

abc123, I think most Peals are still made in England by Seargent. There is one C & J (the perf cap bal I think) and at least one USA made. A mixed bag and a bit confusing for those of us who follow these things more closely than is considered healthy.

Alex - I agree about the AE Park Avenue. Perhaps it is better loved because it is easier to find on sale.

Regarding the above mentioned retailers, they may think that anyone who will shell out for an Alden cordovan will have no issues with the cost of the English calf bal. They may have a point. Personally, I consider the cordovan to be an extravagance and welcome the chance to save a few bucks on calf.


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## abc123 (Jun 4, 2006)

Longwing,

You are correct, the Peal line is mostly made in England. To make sure I wasn't nuts, I checked the BB website, and it is the "Dress Calfskin" line that is made in the US. The pricing seems in line with Alden, do they make this line? I wish they would make it easy on us and just say on on the site...


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## Kingsfield (Nov 15, 2006)

My understanding is that the 907 is Alden's bestselling shoe. Why the shell cordovan equivalent 9071 is not a standard offering is beyond me. Fortunately, it is available. Citishoes $445 and The Shoemart $500. IMO, this is the ultimate suit shoe.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Peal is Brooks' made in England line. At one time Peal was a bespoke maker and sold the name rights to Brooks for a RTW line. Eventually Peal the bespoke maker was no more but Brooks still used the name for RTW. Edward Green made the Peal shoes for some years then Crockett & Jones. There seems to be a shift to Sargeant currently. There was also a "Brooks English" line at one time apparently made by Church's. 

Of course Brooks has a longstanding relationship with Alden as well, and those are simply "Made in the USA" Brooks Brothers shoes with no other designation to my knowledge.


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## knickerbacker (Jun 27, 2005)

AlanC said:


> There was also a "Brooks English" line at one time apparently made by Church's.


I believe that to be correct: my oldest church's (labeled as such) came from BB in the olden days of yore. Sadly, as I lamented some time ago, those church's and a perfect straw boater I bought from bb on the same day went to goodwill by accident during our last move in 2002. Thankfully, I was able to replace them from stock made prior to prada at heavily discounted prices at Neiman's when they discontinued the line.


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## LeatherSOUL (May 8, 2005)

LongWing said:


> Even our very own Leather Soul turns his back on the lowly Alden bal in favor of Edward Greens.
> 
> Any ideas? Yes, Tom, I'm talking to you.


Hey now, I have nothing but love for the Alden bal! The 907 is a great seller for me and I think it should be a part of every well dressed American man's wardrobe.

I do have a very nice burnished walnut wingtip bal that sold very well as well and a saddle bal with tan suede and brown calf in the works.

Yes, I do agree that maybe the Alden bal doesn't get enough respect, but I sure think they're great!

Hmmm, maybe it's time to start thinking of more unique bal styles...


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## Doctor Damage (Feb 18, 2005)

Views of the 907 and 932, both in black calf.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I don't know that I've ever seen that Alden plain toe bal. That's a great looking shoe.


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## JLibourel (Jun 13, 2004)

AlanC said:


> I don't know that I've ever seen that Alden plain toe bal. That's a great looking shoe.


Yeah, I'm thinking that with a high shine it would make a great tuxedo shoe, yet could also be worn with a suit.


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## jcusey (Apr 19, 2003)

LeatherSOUL said:


> Hmmm, maybe it's time to start thinking of more unique bal styles...


How about a true Balmoral (in the British sense of the word) like the EG Gladstone, with polo suede above the line and cigar shell cordovan below? Or all cigar shell cordovan if the suede-and-cordovan combo seems too out there.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

So LeatherSOUL is off the hook. Since he features only his Aloha Edition Aldens on his website, and since people are understandably less adventurous with their bals than bluchers and loafers.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

JLibourel said:


> Yeah, I'm thinking that with a high shine it would make a great tuxedo shoe, yet could also be worn with a suit.


They seem to make it in formal patent as well as calf. I would agree with you that a black calf could certainly do double duty. One could simply buy some ribbon laces to switch in.


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## A Questionable Gentleman (Jun 16, 2006)

JLibourel said:


> Yeah, I'm thinking that with a high shine it would make a great tuxedo shoe, yet could also be worn with a suit.


I have a pair and use them for just that purpose as well as wear with suits.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Aren't these cordovan bals from Brooks made by Alden?

https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ction_Id=225&Product_Id=1075654&Parent_Id=522


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

knickerbacker said:


> my oldest church's (labeled as such) came from BB in the olden days of yore. Sadly, as I lamented some time ago, those church's and a perfect straw boater I bought from bb on the same day went to goodwill by accident during our last move in 2002.


That's tragic, tho' I am glad to hear that you were able to locate a replacement pair.

I'm wearing right now a pair of the made-by-prePradabuyout-Church's "BrooksEnglish" captoes in burgundy calf that are going on 20 years old and still have their original, supertough oak-tanned soles.

They cost $215 new, which seemed like a truly astronomical sum to me at the time (I was just out of grad school) but have turned out to be one of the best investments in a wardrobe item that I've ever made.


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## grimslade (Aug 3, 2006)

PJC in NoVa said:


> Aren't these cordovan bals from Brooks made by Alden?
> 
> https://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCa...ction_Id=225&Product_Id=1075654&Parent_Id=522


No doubt.


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## Kingsfield (Nov 15, 2006)

Some would argue that the strip of perfing makes the shoe less formal and hence less desirable.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

I've got a pair of the 909's in black, and they're nice shoes, but if I had it to do over, I'd have gotten the 957's or 971's instead. Over time, I've come to prefer the blucher style -- partly on aesthetic grounds, partly because my instep prefers them, too.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

egadfly said:


> I've got a pair of the 909's in black, and they're nice shoes, but if I had it to do over, I'd have gotten the 957's or 971's instead. Over time, I've come to prefer the blucher style -- partly on aesthetic grounds, partly because my instep prefers them, too.


Everyone should have at least 1 pair of bals. Well, almost everyone. There are those who will wear nothing but loafers, but they are not as vocal here as they once were.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Kingsfield said:


> Some would argue that the strip of perfing makes the shoe less formal and hence less desirable.


The perfed strip does make the shoe a notch less formal: Not formal enough for morning dress, for example, but still plenty formal to wear with even the more formal end of the suit spectrum (navy pinstripes and such).

But therefore categorically "less desirable"? I don't think that follows.


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## Kingsfield (Nov 15, 2006)

PJC in NoVa said:


> The perfed strip does make the shoe a notch less formal: Not formal enough for morning dress, for example, but still plenty formal to wear with even the more formal end of the suit spectrum (navy pinstripes and such).
> 
> But therefore categorically "less desirable"? I don't think that follows.


I understand what you are saying. We all have our everyday workhorse shoes. Some perfing is fine. Bluchesr are fine. 

However, if I am in a full-on formal context, I want a full-on formal shoe. The guys who wear anything less are often perceived as either ignorant or arrogant&#8230;neither of which helps to advance their cause.

If for some reason I were limited to only two pairs of shoes, I'd opt 9071's and 986's. With those two shoes, you are covered for nearly every context you are likely to encounter. The same can not be said for bluchers or perfed shoes. So perhaps while not "categorically" more desirable, I do see them as being a superior choice on more than one level.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Kingsfield,

As one who is contemplating purchasing the Perf Cap cordo in No. 8, please inform me of the types of events at which I would be better off in a 9071. I doubt that I will be attending any such events, but it's best to be well informed. For me, the need to wear a suit is pretty much limited to weddings, funerals, fund raisers, rubber chicken dinners and other evening social gatherings. The chances that I would need a black cap toe bal in a business setting is extreemly remote. No, non-existant. Neither do I forsee any White House dinners.

Thanks,

LW


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

I think too much is being made of the formality difference because of the punch/perfing on the cap. See this thread, particularly this post by manton:



manton said:


> Thinking along purely rational, aesthetic lines, the plain cap should be more formal, on the principle that less decoration usually means more formal. Nonetheless, in the extant 30s sources, the punch cap had the edge as the preferred daytime formal shoe. A remnant of this tradition can still be observed today, for instance, in the E.G. Shannon, a punch cap bal boot identical to the daytime formal boot most common before WW2. Personally, I prefer punch to plain caps.


Who would consider someone else ignorant or arrogant based on cap perfing, especially on a business shoe?


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## Kingsfield (Nov 15, 2006)

LongWing said:


> Kingsfield,
> 
> As one who is contemplating purchasing the Perf Cap cordo in No. 8, please inform me of the types of events at which I would be better off in a 9071. I doubt that I will be attending any such events, but it's best to be well informed. For me, the need to wear a suit is pretty much limited to weddings, funerals, fund raisers, rubber chicken dinners and other evening social gatherings. The chances that I would need a black cap toe bal in a business setting is extreemly remote. No, non-existant. Neither do I forsee any White House dinners.
> 
> ...


While this will sound Machiavellian to some, I would say either any context in which full suits and black shoes are the norm, and therefore expected, or when wearing such an outfit increases your effectiveness, usually due to a perceived increase in credibility or/and authority.


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## PJC in NoVa (Jan 23, 2005)

Kingsfield said:


> I understand what you are saying. We all have our everyday workhorse shoes. Some perfing is fine. Bluchesr are fine.
> 
> However, if I am in a full-on formal context, I want a full-on formal shoe. The guys who wear anything less are often perceived as either ignorant or arrogant&#8230;neither of which helps to advance their cause.
> 
> If for some reason I were limited to only two pairs of shoes, I'd opt 9071's and 986's. With those two shoes, you are covered for nearly every context you are likely to encounter. The same can not be said for bluchers or perfed shoes. So perhaps while not "categorically" more desirable, I do see them as being a superior choice on more than one level.


What do you mean by "full-on formal"? Are you talking about morning dress or black or white tie? Daytime businesswear? (I suspect you mean the last, but I'm not entirely sure.)

And as for bluchers, I had assumed we were talking about balmorals, period. Bluchers are less formal than bals b/c the former have an open lacing arrangement. (FTR, bluchers are not my cup of tea; I have only one pair and don't plan on getting any more.) So if you have any formality-related concerns, you're on solid ground by eschewing bluchers in favor of bals.

In the context of daytime businesswear even of the more "high formal" sort (e.g., a pinstriped dark suit, spread-collar double-cuffed shirt, conservative tie, and so on), a perf-seamed or even a punch-capped balmoral, well shined and well kept and most often black, is in my opinion an absolutely acceptable shoe.

Moreover, if it's any comfort, the number of people outside circles like the AAAC forum who can parse the formality distinctions among different styles of gents' lace-up business footwear is, I strongly suspect, vanishingly small (blucher-wearers, take heart), and so accordingly are your prospects of _ever_ being labeled "ignorant or arrogant" over a choice of footwear (perish the thought).


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## Kingsfield (Nov 15, 2006)

AlanC-While certainly juvenile, it has been my experience that there are plenty of corporate alpha-types who do, fact in care about and pay attention to these sorts of things. That said, I probably should have kept my mouth shut. I have no interest in starting trouble or seeing this devolve into some sort of argument. Sorry if I offended anyone.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

No offense taken, Kingsfield. Those are just the sort of issues we spend time discussing on the fora. 

Thankfully (or not!), I don't work in an environment where punch cap or blucher would make an iota of difference.


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

Kingsfield said:


> While certainly juvenile, it has been my experience that there are plenty of corporate alpha-types who do, fact in care about and pay attention to these sorts of things.


 Fair enough, but I can tell you that better than half of the clients and colleagues I meet with (at Fortune 100 companies, top-tier law firms, etc.) can barely dress themselves appropriately, much less discern subtle degrees of footwear formality. There are always exceptions, but as a rule, if your shoes are shined and match your belt, you will be better-dressed than 85% of the people you meet in the corporate world; if your pants actually fit and your tie is properly knotted, that figure climbs to 90%. I met last week with a corporate alpha-type wearing a four-button suit. 'Nuff said.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*Alden shoe*

Alden cap toe blucher oxford in
either color 8 or black
shell cordovan-very appropriate 
for the corner office


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## egadfly (Nov 10, 2006)

mcarthur said:


> Alden cap toe blucher oxford in
> either color 8 or black
> shell cordovan-very appropriate
> for the corner office


Mac, beautiful shoes -- as always -- but aren't those Bals? Or do I not fully understand the distinction?


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Mac's shoes are bals, relating to the thread title. I believe he's the victim of a typo.


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## longwing (Mar 28, 2005)

Kingsfield said:


> I probably should have kept my mouth shut.


I couldn't disagree more. I think you point of view is underrepresented on this forum. We are full to the gills with ebay thrifters and Lands End shoppers. Some of the younger readers here could benefit from the input of some alpha sorts.

Still, you could be a bit more specific about the situations where a 9701 trumps a perf cap in No. 8. Is it strictly business, or do your evaluations persist into the evening.


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*Just wanted to say thanks...*

I had fully convinced myself that my AE Park Avenues in Black/Brown/Merlot calf were more than "good enough"....and that I really didn't need bal caps in cordovan.

OK, let me fess up and be honest -- I felt that adding the shoemart cigar captoe bals were "good enough". Now I fully wish I had happened upon the black/#8s earlier.

You have to draw the line somewhere. Alas, I have no idea where that is. And, even if I knew, not sure I would abide by it anyway.


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*Alden bal*



Tenacious Tassel said:


> I had fully convinced myself that my AE Park Avenues in Black/Brown/Merlot calf were more than "good enough"....and that I really didn't need bal caps in cordovan.
> 
> OK, let me fess up and be honest -- I felt that adding the shoemart cigar captoe bals were "good enough". Now I fully wish I had happened upon the black/#8s earlier.
> 
> You have to draw the line somewhere. Alas, I have no idea where that is. And, even if I knew, not sure I would abide by it anyway.


Tenacious Tassel-
I would enjoy seeing your pictures of your future purchases of your new color 8 and black cap toes in shell cordovan.The Las Vegas odds maker say within one year.


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*Mcarthur --*

ugh....

Would that not be the peak of gluttony? I mean, who on earth would claim a closet of AE Park Ave calfs and Alden cap toe cordovans?

At some point, the joy of new shoes is overwhelmed by the sheer waste of overindulgence and unnecessary spending (I am guessing).

My undersized closet is already spilling over with 5 Cap toes, 5 Tassels, 4 LHSs, 4 spit toes, 4 wingtips, 3 Weejuns, and 2 perf captoe -- all either Alden or AE and < 4 years old (except Weejuns). (and 3 cigar special make ups on the way in the next 6 months)

I really need to get around to having a huge Ebay garage sale...

(I find writing out the total # of shoes helps talk me out of future purchases) :icon_smile:


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*Tenacious Tassel*

Tenacious Tassel-
This time of year brings home the saying that it is better to give than receive. It is very appropriate to continue to upgrade your wardrobe. 
What have you ordered from shoemart in cigar shell cordovan?


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

*Cigar --*

Tassel, of course, as well as cap toe and plain front.

BUT, I have turned over a new leaf. I am refusing to buy any more lace up shoes, and plan to go to almost 100% loafers in my life. (and cancelled the cap toe)

I figure, between tassels, penny's (thanks to my very favorable recent experience with C&J Harvards), boat shoes, cap mocs, and rubber mocs I can dress for just about any occassion wihout every having to tie a shoe lace.

There is about to be a glut of 12Ds on ebay...


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*Alden bal*



Tenacious Tassel said:


> Tassel, of course, as well as cap toe and plain front.
> 
> BUT, I have turned over a new leaf. I am refusing to buy any more lace up shoes, and plan to go to almost 100% loafers in my life. (and cancelled the cap toe)
> 
> ...


Tenacious Tassel-
You order of cigar shell cordovan shoes is outstanding. I would wear the cap toe over the loafer with a suit.


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## Tenacious Tassel (Sep 11, 2006)

I think you are in the majority with that opinion...

I love tassels with suits. I guess they aren't that popular around here, but I feel right at home in them.

I also love to wear penny loafers with jackets or blazers/trousers.

But, you are probably right, I would probably be wise to hold onto the captoe cigar order. They won't be in till the summer, so I have plently of time to think it over.

OK, so maybe I'll stick with loafers w/ a cap toe every so often....:icon_smile:


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## mcarthur (Jul 18, 2005)

*Alden bal*

Tebacious Tassel-
I can agree with your last thought


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