# The softest shoulder



## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

After swearing off vintage sport coats, I've been picking up some new jackets from Press & O'Connell's and I've been surprised at just how much shoulder there is in these offerings. I find that my Ralph Lauren sport coats have a much softer shoulder with little if any structure to it at all. 

So this prompts me to ask, who currently offers the softest shoulders on new sack sport coats and blazers?

My fear is that nobody does since there are so few companies that actually manufacture these types of garments.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Word. My experience with contemporary sacks from Press, OC and BB is, shoulderwise, not terribly soft n' natural (and in a couple cases unreasonable.) I've been looking forward to trying out Ralph Lauren sport coats based on your own reports and WAYWT pics. Not that I really "need" any right now....


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## bd79cc (Dec 20, 2006)

My experience lately has been that some of the jackets at Press and O'Connell's have nice soft shoulders and some don't. You either have to show up in person and inspect the goods or call to get one one of the salesmen to make an impromptu shoulder comparison to find the good ones. Still, the shoulders aren't what they once were. . . and I was never one to buy into the No Padding Mystique. 

I'd be very happy indeed if PRL would offer one or two jackets, a blazer, and a couple of suits very season in our beloved 3/2 natural-shouldered sack mode.

Have you checked The Andover Shop, Eddie Jacobs and Eljo's yet?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I find it a little ironic the general distrust that most members seem to have in RL when they seem to be the only company out there at any price offering a 3 button natural shouldered sack with a 3/2 roll. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the jackets I've gotten from Press & O'Cs, but it's peculiar that the few companies that seem to have made their niche in carrying the torch have strayed so far from the ideal.


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## Mississippi Mud (Oct 15, 2009)

Trip English said:


> After swearing off vintage sport coats, I've been picking up some new jackets from Press & O'Connell's and I've been surprised at just how much shoulder there is in these offerings. I find that my Ralph Lauren sport coats have a much softer shoulder with little if any structure to it at all.
> 
> So this prompts me to ask, who currently offers the softest shoulders on new sack sport coats and blazers?
> 
> My fear is that nobody does since there are so few companies that actually manufacture these types of garments.


I'd like to know, too, for I still have a little room left to buy one of two jackets, perhaps a suit as well. The O'Connells suit I bought last spring had nice soft shoudlers, and the Barbour tweed I acquired last fall was almost like a sweater. As both were online purchases, I don't suspect my blind luck will continue.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

The Polo blue label jackets I have are the softest shoulder I own with no padding. I have some Southwick MTM suits and there is definitely padding, but nothing like like the linebacker shoulders.

I have a suit from O'Connells made by Oakloom which rivals the Polo jackets, but I believe it is NOS. 

I also have a jacket from Ben Silver with some soft shoulders. I have had mixed success with Press.

I think your best bet is Polo Blue Label.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I wonder who's making the true RL sack suits & jackets?


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

Trip, drive yourself over to Princeton and check out Nick Hilton's new Norman Hilton jackets - he's got all the other details right and I'm betting it's a real "natural shoulder garment" ().

As for the natural shoulder on RLPL, Zegna, Canali, etc. - their shoulders are indeed much "softer" than sack sport coats/suits, especially TNSIL shoulders since the 1980s (seems to be when U.S. natural shoulder makers starting adding a little padding to compete against the fashion houses who were using linebacker pads). Many of the current Italian makers literally have zero padding and only a tiny amount of wadding in their shoulders. The reason I don't switch is the overall striking difference in the silhouette between a "soft" Italian jacket and a TNSIL one. If you want the sack silhouette and real natural shoulders then you pretty much have to go vintage/used.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Cardinals5 said:


> Trip, drive yourself over to Princeton and check out Nick Hilton's new Norman Hilton jackets - he's got all the other details right and I'm betting it's a real "natural shoulder garment" ().
> 
> I saw those posted over at Ivy Style and thought they looked good but I am not in the market for jacket, but if he offered suits I might consider.


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## TDI GUY (Oct 26, 2008)

*RL Sack?*

Trip: What is the model name for the "true" 3/2 sack from RL? I am familiar with the Dartmouth and Congressman Classic, both of which are 3/2 darted (but with great shoulders).

What about the Southwick Douglas? I have a Douglas suit and the shoulder is very nice. If I had the money at the moment, I'd probably pick up a Southwick Douglas tweed from O'Connells now that they are on sale.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm a fan of new Press jackets, though I'd agree that some of them have too much shoulder for my tastes. As others have mentioned, however, some of them have softer shoulders than others. Their unconstructed jackets, naturally, have very soft shoulders.

When I went to Eddie Jacobs, I tried on a number of jackets. And I found that it was a mixed bag: some of the jackets had very soft shoulders, and others did not. The Andover Shop has jackets with pretty soft shoulders, though you have to add a button to the lapel to make them 3/2s.

The Rugby tweed jacket I own actually has very soft shoulders. It also has three patch pockets and is a 3/2. All their jackets seem to be darted, however, and some of them have annoying features (e.g., a lapel that can be "popped" to show a different pattern underneath).

I would agree that no trad maker seems to make jackets with shoulders like one finds on vintage jackets. I'm not sure why this is. I'm also not sure why few make jackets with patch pockets and other nice details. I know we are a small group of folks, and thus are in no place to dictate market tastes. But I can't imagine that the average customer would forgo a jacket purchase because the jacket had patch pockets.


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## TDI GUY (Oct 26, 2008)

Speaking of Press' unconstructed offerings, anyone have experience with their tweed "slim sac" jacket?

https://www.jpressonline.com/outerwear_jackets_detail.php?id=IVYR

Sir Cingle: I've been tempted by the Rugby offerings, but the slim fit of most has generally scared me off. Is the tweed you own the one currently on the website? If so, how slim is the fit (i.e., difference between chest and waist)?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Cards, thanks. The Norman Hilton option sounds really interesting. I'll have to look into it. 

TDI, I don't know the model. It's actually a very recent offering and the sizing is a little strange. I usually wear a 40R and found myself in a 42R that felt very snug. Add to that the usual RL pricing (last one I saw was marked down to $839 from about $1,300) and you have a bittersweet situation to be sure. 

I also agree on Rugby. It's a shame that those sorts of garments are being put out in a youth oriented line. It would be nice to see the blue label focused into a real university shop line like J.Press.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

TDI: I have tried on that unconstructed tweed at Press, and I really, really liked it. Unfortunately, they only make it in a regular length, and I need a long. Otherwise, I'd definitely get one. It's more casual than a typical Press jacket (as unconstructed jackets tend to be), but it's really nice and versatile.

The tweed I have from Rugby is old and no longer on the Web site. Their jackets tend to be slim-fitting. But I find that you can still get something that fits you, if you size up a bit. I tend to wear a 43L, but at Press often 42Ls fit. At Rugby, often 44Ls fit. But I think you'd really have to try things on at Rugby to make sure. Some of their jackets are S-M-L-XL, and unless they are casual, this will not do.

I agree with you, Trip, about Rugby. Some of their details are so nice that it's a shame it's dedicated to a very young market. It would be nice if Press ran some sort of real university shop, but I fear they'd screw it up like Brooks Brothers did with its recent "campus-inspired" line: e.g., wimpy collars; S-M-L-XL sizing.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

The whole concept of a true campus shop is obsolete. If it were actually catering to that market it would sell gym shorts, timberland boots, and beer-pong accessories. 

So what we'd want is a Campus-Shop-In-Name-Only. Maybe I'll start talking with venture capitalists and see if one wants to seed me for my own shop.


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## TDI GUY (Oct 26, 2008)

Sir Cingle said:


> TDI: I have tried on that unconstructed tweed at Press, and I really, really liked it. Unfortunately, they only make it in a regular length, and I need a long. Otherwise, I'd definitely get one. It's more casual than a typical Press jacket (as unconstructed jackets tend to be), but it's really nice and versatile.


Thanks for the review! So would it still work with a tie or is it strictly casual wear (I have an unconstructed PRL cord sport coat which I love, but it doesn't work particularly well with a tie)? And is the fit pretty true to size?


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

Sir Cingle said:


> TDI: I have tried on that unconstructed tweed at Press, and I really, really liked it. Unfortunately, they only make it in a regular length, and I need a long. Otherwise, I'd definitely get one. It's more casual than a typical Press jacket (as unconstructed jackets tend to be), but it's really nice and versatile.


Glad to hear the good review, I just wish it came in brown.


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## TDI GUY (Oct 26, 2008)

Thom Browne's Schooldays said:


> Glad to hear the good review, I just wish it came in brown.


It does! At least that's what I remember someone saying when the jacket first appeared. It just doesn't appear on the website.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

^TDI is correct: the jacket comes in brown as well. Although it's not available on the Web site, I'd call one of the Press stores to see if they still have any brown ones in stock. New Haven may be your best bet, since they have a large stock and tend to keep things kicking around for awhile.


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## sclemmons (Mar 4, 2006)

Re "The softest shoulder": You owe it to yourself to find somebody who carries Kiton and try on one of their jackets. If you catch it on sale this time of year, you may be very happy. You have to pace yourself because of the price point. I think Kiton is the true current day successor to Norman Hilton. Their jackets fit great, very natural shoulder with almost no padding, usually come in three buttons, and the fabrics are off the chart. I think most of their customers are jacket customers, unlike Oxxford customers who buy suits. I know it is not trad per se, but I think I like it better.


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## AlanC (Oct 28, 2003)

Why did you swear off vintage? I think I missed the memo.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Kiton is great in terms of a soft shoulder, but they're very different from the Trad silhouette that defined the style. Additionally the Kiton OTR jackets are darted which interrupt the lines of some of their beautiful fabrics.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

AlanC said:


> Why did you swear off vintage? I think I missed the memo.


I've sworn off vintage that I can't try on first and my local thrift scene seems to be good for ties and not much else. I seem to have a rump that 1960s America couldn't have foreseen and vents tend to split apart.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

A year or so ago, I found the contemporary Press blazer shoulder really huge, and the arm holes enormous. And yet Trip you seem to do well with the OC blazer -- made by Press! Hmm


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Well, I must say that while the OC blazer is among my favorites, the shoulders are one of the only things I'd change. It was the first new sack I ever bought and I was shocked that the shoulder was so built up. It's better than the new Press jackets I've picked up, but not by much.

I'm glad that there's a willingness to experiment with Italian gear, but one has to understand that the stuff that would please us is priced in the stratosphere compared to the shops we usually chat about. The least I've ever seen a Kiton jacket go for is $850 and it was the worst looking jacket I'd ever seen.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Trip English said:


> Well, I must say that while the OC blazer is among my favorites, the shoulders are one of the only things I'd change. It was the first new sack I ever bought and I was shocked that the shoulder was so built up. It's better than the new Press jackets I've picked up, but not by much.


I purchased a poplin suit from OC several years back and was unpleasantly surprised with the shoulders as well. It wasn't so much the padding as the construction of the shoulder itself which went straight out almost parallel to the ground. It seems that OC now offers 100% cotton poplin suits with a natural shoulder. I am contemplating a poplin for the summer and may consider it.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

^ Same here. I purchased a "pincord" suit from OC two years ago -- big ol' shoulders on that thing. Otherwise I dig it.

In contrast, I own two vintage BB "wash n' wear" poplin suits that are perfecto in every respect. 

"Natural shoulder" is just a phrase that doesn't mean anything anymore.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

my natural shoulder (itself) has a prominent knot where the collarbone joins, is unusually square, in the sense of being slope shouldered, and curves or bows forward more than many, and my upper arm drops straight from the point, unencumbered by much in the way of biceps and triceps. Thus to achieve the clean lines of a "natural shoulder" look a certain amount of properly distributed padding, and other tailor's tricks are required. I have a couple of zero-padding sportcoats from long ago, which I love, but when worn they have a lumpy look on the shoulder line.


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## eyedoc2180 (Nov 19, 2006)

Cardinals5 said:


> Trip, drive yourself over to Princeton and check out Nick Hilton's new Norman Hilton jackets - he's got all the other details right and I'm betting it's a real "natural shoulder garment" ().


Thank you for this link. At about 10 miles away, I live closer than most of you guys, and I suspect this is going to cost me a paycheck or two. Those are some nice jackets! For the record, my BB sack blazer has shoulders that aren't objectionable, but the Hilton version looks great.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

eyedoc2180 said:


> Thank you for this link. At about 10 miles away, I live closer than most of you guys, and I suspect this is going to cost me a paycheck or two. Those are some nice jackets! For the record, my BB sack blazer has shoulders that aren't objectionable, but the Hilton version looks great.


Please give us a report with pics.


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## Brio1 (May 13, 2010)

Sorry for the dumb question, but how does one tell if a sport coat is natural/soft/unpadded from a photograph on a website? I'm not even sure what to look for when handling a sport coat in a store. How should the real McCoy look and feel? I recently acquired this coat: https://www.jpressonline.com/sportcoats_pressclusive_detail.php?id=J13040R

Does it pass muster?


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

^ I'm sure it's all a matter of personal preference, Brio, but the posted pic is of a Pressclusive jacket, likely made by Cohen. In my own experience the Cohen shoulders are kinda big. But to Rambler's point, it really depends on your body and what you like. You may be as hideously deformed as he, in which case, cover up m'lad.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

it's the tailors' art, after all.


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## efdll (Sep 11, 2008)

A bespoke tailor friend tells me the reasons the trad marques like J Press no longer make a true natural shoulder is that too much craftsmanship is involved and it would drive up the price. Perhaps aficionados would pay, but the Ivy League look has always been moderately priced -- compare the top Press suit to anything Italian. Speaking of the latter, price is no object to Kiton, but besides the darts, the "shirt" shoulders of this and other Italian makers is a different construction, even if in the end few could discern it -- I'm not that savvy -- except for the darts. The only time I see a true natural shoulder jacket it's what we here call vintage and some folk doubtlessly think is getting your money's worth out of a suit over decades. Saw one at the opera two nights ago, gent my age (not young), with a casually disheveled old-money look I haven't seen much of since it was "the" look way back in college.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

You may be referring to the _spalla camica,_ or Neopolitan shoulder, a very soft shoulder that may be identified by a sort of soft pleat at the top of the arm. It requires great tailoring skill to construct, and is probably a disappearing thing, because it impossible to make except by hand (I think).


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

efdll said:


> A bespoke tailor friend tells me the reasons the trad marques like J Press no longer make a true natural shoulder is that too much craftsmanship is involved and it would drive up the price. Perhaps aficionados would pay, but the Ivy League look has always been moderately priced -- compare the top Press suit to anything Italian. Speaking of the latter, price is no object to Kiton, but besides the darts, the "shirt" shoulders of this and other Italian makers is a different construction, even if in the end few could discern it -- I'm not that savvy -- except for the darts. The only time I see a true natural shoulder jacket it's what we here call vintage and some folk doubtlessly think is getting your money's worth out of a suit over decades. Saw one at the opera two nights ago, gent my age (not young), with a casually disheveled old-money look I haven't seen much of since it was "the" look way back in college.


While I can't speak authoritatively to the contrary from a technical perspective, I can say that Ralph Lauren offers the softest shoulder for under $1,000 in his Rugby line where jackets are routinely priced at $300-$500 which is much less than J.Press. To be perfectly honest, with several of both in my closet, nothing by J.Press comes close to RL Rugby let alone the blue and purple label I have. The stitching is tighter, the details are more thoughtful, and the material has a much richer hand. So something about it being too hard to make cost effectively doesn't ring true from my personal experience. The only other variable is that RL has no problem making his garments in the far east or Africa, while J.Press seems to try and stay confined to North America for the traditional garments and only go abroad where the heritage is correct (like sweaters from Scotland). So that could certainly account for the discrepancy.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

^Trip, that's an interesting point, though I personally prefer Press jackets to Rugby ones. From my point of view, they just seem more substantial and made of higher quality stuff. 

Naturally, I'm no tailor, so I could be totally off base. But I have a feeling that Rugby tends to offer rather soft shoulders because most (?) of their jackets are either unconstructed or very close to unconstructed.
If you try on Press' unconstructed jackets (like a gray cotton number I own or the tweed one discussed above), you'll find that they have very natural shoulders too. 

Again, I could be wrong about all of this.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I think it's probably down to being fully canvased versus partially (mostly half-canvassed or unconstructed). That being said, even when comparing apples and oranges, the Rugby items come out on top in everything but fit. I definately prefer the overall cut of press (and the sizing of course) and O'Connell's.


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## david809 (Jul 1, 2003)

The softest shoulder I have seen for a sack is the Talbot model by Samuelsohn. You have to special order it without darts, but the special order also lets you do all the bells and whistles, e.g., lapped seams, hook vent. Full canvas for less than a grand for the jacket. A pretty good deal.

RL Blue Label is very soft, as everyone has noted.

I have a couple things in the works at Winston Tailors, I went in for a fitting recently and the shoulders looked great. Since you are close, maybe you should take a peek.


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## closerlook (Sep 3, 2008)

Trip English said:


> I think it's probably down to being fully canvased versus partially (mostly half-canvassed or unconstructed). That being said, even when comparing apples and oranges, the Rugby items come out on top in everything but fit. I definately prefer the overall cut of press (and the sizing of course) and O'Connell's.


that tan prl 3/2 you and i both have is pretty tops. my was ruined in the rain however.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

david809 said:


> The softest shoulder I have seen for a sack is the Talbot model by Samuelsohn. You have to special order it without darts, but the special order also lets you do all the bells and whistles, e.g., lapped seams, hook vent. Full canvas for less than a grand for the jacket. A pretty good deal.


O'Connells offers Samuelsohn sacks. I wonder if it is the Talbot model or something made to their specifications?


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## Quorum (Oct 10, 2009)

> Speaking of Press' unconstructed offerings, anyone have experience with their tweed "slim sac" jacket?


I have this. The first one I bought had a defect in the arm seam (tweed fraying around the seam) so I've exchanged it, but other than that it was very nice. There is no lining or structure of any kind, even in the sleeves. Dartlessness notwithstanding there is a good deal of waist suppression and it is indeed slim-fitting as advertised.

The 3/2 roll sits a little different with no structure in the chest. Not bad, just looser and more casual.

Overall I really like it. It's very wearable and very versatile and it's nice to find so many of the details -- sack cut, hook vent, two-button cuffs, 3/2 roll, patch pockets, elbow patches -- in one place.

I was told over the phone (unfortunately I am far from any Press store) that it is Harris tweed and made in Canada, though there is nothing on the jacket itself to indicate whether this is true or not.​


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## Charles Saturn (May 27, 2010)

I would have never noticed that on their website, they have it hiding with outerwear. Too bad less construction doesn't translate as much at the check out line.


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## LonelyAreTheBrave (Dec 2, 2006)

Cowtown said:


> O'Connells offers Samuelsohn sacks. I wonder if it is the Talbot model or something made to their specifications?


 Greenwich II model.


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## Rayson (Jan 26, 2011)

Has anybody tried this J.Press brown herringbone sack in the Pressclusive range?

https://www.jpressonline.com/sportcoats_pressclusive_detail.php?id=J13025P

I wish this thread had existed earlier. I feel Brio's pain to the power of ten. I'm in the self-imposed state of knowing nothing about clothes and trying to write a blog about them. I didn't realise there were so many degrees to this soft shoulder thing. I'd love to know if the J.Press I mention can be confidently described as unstructured and soft-shouldered, because that's sort of what I did in my blog. I assume it has a hooked back vent and is half-lined. I hear these phrases around a lot... I think I'm OK with those two, actually.

I compared the J.Press to this jacket:

https://www.grandprixlegends.com/all-brands/steve-mcqueen/frank-bullitt-jacket.html

It's supposed to be a recreation of the one in Bullitt, as you can see. I got embarrassingly overexcited about it initially. I still like it a great deal for the basic look, but the shoulders are about the same as my usual high street jackets, which I take it is certainly not the classic soft shoulder feel. (Unsure you have the phrase "high street" in the US. I think I should've said "department store".) I take it I'm on safe ground to consider that a 3/2 roll, though? Perhaps the brown version of the jacket TDI mentions gets closer to the actual Bullitt jacket than the J.Press I mention.

I live in England. I wish I knew where I could try an Ivy style jacket here. I cast about online, and I've read "The Ivy Look", but as you can see that doesn't guarantee you end up with an expert. Can some of the Barbour jackets really be Ivy style at least in terms of lack of structure? It's easy enough for me to get my hands on those.

Apologies this post is so long. It's annoyed me, too. I'm sure it's obvious from this post I'm not an "in" sort of person, so on the off-chance you do want to acknowledge any part of this please try to avoid acronyms (I'm fine with "RL" and I've just found out what "NOS" means, so use those to your heart's content!).


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

^Rayson: The J. Press jacket you linked to is not an unstructured jacket. As others have mentioned on this thread, most current J. Press jackets have more padded shoulders than one might otherwise suppose. The Press unstructured jackets have softer shoulders, and this isn't one of them. I still like these Press coats, though I could do with a little less shoulder. 

Also, most Press jackets these days tend to be fully lined. I don't own this particular model, but I think it'd be a good guess to say that it's fully lined.


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## Rayson (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks for this and, furthermore, dammit!


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## Rayson (Jan 26, 2011)

I'll update my blog in time and acknowledge my AAAC (acronyms are addictive...) assistance.


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## C. Sharp (Dec 18, 2008)

Rayson a link for you https://www.johnsimons.co.uk/


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## Rayson (Jan 26, 2011)

I went into this shop on a visit to London, actually. It was small with less stuff than I expected. Expectation was doubtless part of the problem. John was there, his son and several of their acquaintances. My friend and I were the only customers. I was after an Ivy style jacket in a 40R, but they agreed there wasn't much to fit the bill in that size at the time. The best thing I saw had darts. They gave my tall friend attention, but too much. It was uncomfortable. I groped the odd jacket shoulder, but given everything it was difficult to get a sense of jacket structure. I need to try again.


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## MacT (Feb 16, 2008)

Rayson said:


> Has anybody tried this J.Press brown herringbone sack in the Pressclusive range?
> 
> https://www.jpressonline.com/sportcoats_pressclusive_detail.php?id=J13025P
> 
> I wish this thread had existed earlier. I feel Brio's pain to the power of ten. *** I assume it has a hooked back vent and is half-lined. I hear these phrases around a lot... I think I'm OK with those two, actually.


The jacket to which you link and Brio's are the same make and model, and it's the same fabric, just in a different color. There is really not that much padding in this jacket, but the angle at which the sleeve is sewn to the body, and the construction around the armholes/sleevehead make it less "natural." It will relax and mold to your shoulder to some extent, so it improves with age and wear, IMO. In all, it's a fine jacket, but there are better examples of natural shoulders out there.

By the way, there is a thread on this subject that ought to be required reading -- my opinion, again -- especially the post by ROI on "shoulder expression."

The thread: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/com...atural-Shoulder&highlight=shoulder+expression

The hall of fame post: https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?53829-Natural-Shoulder&p=344617#post344617


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## Rayson (Jan 26, 2011)

Not so much padding but expression. That thread, that post in particular, truly helpful. Your points on sleeve angles was helpful too. And now you've directed me to the hall of fame thread, I even see an acronym glossary. Thank you for your advice and patience!


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## david809 (Jul 1, 2003)

LonelyAreTheBrave said:


> Greenwich II model.


I feel like when I see Samuelsohn sacks carried by retailers (which is not often at all), 99% of the time they are Greenwich (I or II). The Greenwich has more structure and padding than the Talbot, I like the Talbot better, even for suits (though the Greenwich is solid). The shop I used to go to showed me another Samuelsohn model that was even lighter than the Talbot with narrower lapels, though I can't recall the name. If you are in San Francisco, the folks at the Hound could give you the details.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I figured I'd bump this thread up rather than start an entirely new one, but after grabbing a bunch of sport coats from the Press sale I realize that more than half are likely to be unwearable due to shoulders. Without much in the way of "mirrors" I hastily bought jackets that seemed to fit well and upon proper inspection they do EXCEPT for the diapers that have been sold into the shoulders. 

Now these might be fine for the right build, but I can't understand where in all of the history of TNSIL these came from?? I've never found a single sack of any vintage that wasn't just soft shouldered, but usually only partially canvased. When compared with the current Press offerings it's as though they're rebranded the Lauren green label jackets. 

So this is really more of a rant, but a gut wrenching one because I can't even buy TNSIL in any variety from J.Press!!! What a terrible realization that there's only a niche within a niche where someone can go and spend their trad dollars on authentic garments. 

Maybe it really will be Nick Hilton and Ralph Lauren who bring Ivy back to its glory days. Maybe no one will for some time. Maybe I'll find a venture capitalist and do it. Bah.


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## thefancyman (Apr 24, 2009)

I hope I'm not hijacking your thread Trip but I thought that many of the forum members would find this interesting. In part 2 of the 5 part interview with the blog Ivy Style with Richard Press the grandson of Jacobi Press and the last member of the Press family to run the business he states that it was originally J. Press that introduced of all companies but BRIONI to America in 1963. Brioni cut suits for Press according to their specs on their pattern but I was still shocked to read that. I've read that Brioni is one of the more structured suits in RTW and that they do a structured, squared shoulder. I wonder if that had any influence on J. Press suits during the 60s and beyond?

https://www.ivy-style.com/family-guy-the-richard-press-interview.html


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

Good god. Let's hope not.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

I just started reading this thread because I am a master of delayed reaction. I love it!


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## mjo_1 (Oct 2, 2007)

I wonder if the non-Cohen made J. Press shoulders may be better? I remember reading here quite some time ago that any coat or suit item number beginning with a "J" is Cohen, while those beginning with 4 numbers then a letter are Southwick, and finally those beginning with 5 numbers then a letter are HSM or something else.

It appears that several of the Pressidential suits on the site right now are Southwick according to the info above, and the site lists them as made in USA. I'd kill for the Glen Plaid. (Disclaimer: the post saying that is now 2-3 years old, so things may have changed).

Seems like springing for a Southwick made Pressidential would be the way to go at J. Press.

EDIT: There seems to be a new format for some of the numbers - J#####Letter. Who knows what that means, but I'd guess Canadian made, presumably Cohen.


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

Yes, I found nice jackets at the dang Press sale EXCEPT for the foopin' shoulders. They happen to make me look square (literally, as in my shape), which I dislike. They scream, "Hey world, I'm a child wearing a suit, or I'm a clueless man -- you decide!" while, in contrast, all my vintage jackets (in my fantasy mind, anyway) say "this fella looks very nice indeed -- but I'm not sure why -- perhaps it's his clothes or something".


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

You're correct Joe. Next time I'm bringing my own full length mirror to a J.Press sample sale. I literally had trouble getting my jacket on over one of them. It's a shame, as it's otherwise a great jacket. 

What will need to happen next is a visit to NJ to try on some of the Norman Hiltons. I can't believe that no one on here has given some sort of report on these yet. If Nick's target audience isn't on these boards then where are they??


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## nerdykarim (Dec 13, 2005)

If you get a chance, try some 3/2 jackets from Caruso or Sartorio--literally no padding in the shoulders at all and a lightly-constructed chest. Here are some photos that I took for a sales thread I made a few months back. I hope they're helpful (or at least amusing).

Crittenden (literally nothing there):








(red line indicates machine pick-stitching)

Pal Zileri Sartoriale (a second layer of cloth, but no padding. a pretty dang soft shoulder):









Sartorio (literally nothing there--just a thicker fabric):









Caruso (literally nothing there):









For comparison, this is a Southwick sack for Cable Car Clothiers. Shoulder is pretty light, but there's definitely padding there.


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## Cal27 (Mar 23, 2011)

Are soft shoulders considered desirable because they look better much of the time, because they are a classic look, or both?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

For me, at least, it's because they look better.


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## Sir Cingle (Aug 22, 2009)

^Well, this is the trad forum, so I'd say both.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

nerdykarim, thanks. I'm aware of (and have often advocated) the Italian silhouette. I have a few Italian jackets with no padding whatsoever and they are far and away the most appealing garments for me. 

On the other hand, I like the 3/2 sack which is otherwise a very different shape and lacks the darts that one can become somewhat averse to after spending so much time on this forum.

My frustration, and my reason for posting again on this thread, was more the feeling of being forced into thrifting (which has proven almost completely fruitless in sport coats & suits where I live) or eBay (which is exhausting & expensive since no one can seem to measure correctly).


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

LOL. It seems our increasingly sedentary lifestyles may be having a growing impact on our perception(s) of the garments currently offered by men's fashion icons(?) For the record, I prefer a soft shoulder. However, some degree of padding, incorporated into our preferred jacket designs, seems to be the new norm! It becomes a problem when there is simply too much of it or when the wearer has insufficient shoulder mass to carry the look. My solution has been to avoid the "gridiron designs" and to just buy and wear the jacket with shoulder structures that best fit me. If such becomes too difficult to achieve, it's time to head back to the gym and incorporate more military/shoulder presses into my workout routines...until I grow into the shoulders of my jackets! My bottom line on this...J Press be damned!


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

I do own two Pressidential suits of fairly recent vintage and both have very minimal padding. It may be that the Cohen made jackets and suits are the problem.


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## nerdykarim (Dec 13, 2005)

Trip English said:


> My frustration, and my reason for posting again on this thread, was more the feeling of being forced into thrifting (which has proven almost completely fruitless in sport coats & suits where I live) or eBay (which is exhausting & expensive since no one can seem to measure correctly).


I agree with you here; I think I've just given up with modern "Trad" stores like Brooks or Press for suits/sportcoats and, because clothing has become less of a hobby for me than it was when I began reading the forums five years ago, I can't be bothered to spend time thrifting/combing ebay for the good stuff. Brands like Caruso in particular provide a pretty good sweet spot for me wrt my personal style.


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## eagle2250 (Mar 24, 2006)

^^
While others might fail, O'Connell's will never disappoint the true Trad on the hunt!


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## Joe Beamish (Mar 21, 2008)

The american trad men photos thread, which features many men of action and brilliance of all sorts, including but not limited to strong shoulders, illustrates again and again an excellent masculine silhouette that is balanced, proportionate and practical: In which men do not resemble the cast of the 80s TV show, Designing Women.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Gents,

There's an interesting article in the blog, A Continuous Lean about the new designer Paul Farrington that joined Hickey Freeman. He's a proponent of the "Shirt shoulder", which is a natural look. His point in the interview is that natural shoulder has more to do with good design than simply less or no padding.

I don't know if the new line of Hickey Freeman suits and jackets which feature a soft shoulder and a higher button stance reflect his contribution, but I thought you might find this article interesting.

Aside from the canons of 3/2 roll, no darts and natural shoulder, I imagine what we are all after is a jacket we can "live in", feels very comfortable and is flattering to the male silhouette. It seems like Paul Farrington is one of the few guys who "get it".

What I can say about Hickey Freeman suits is that they are very well made, use excellent fabrics and are, in the mainline models, fully canvassed. So I imagine the soft-shoulder models might we worth a look. I've liked HF because they are U.S. made, and make me look good, though I haven't tried the newer models. When I took 3 Hickey Freeman Madison model jackets I got from the Woodbury Commons outlet sale to Paul Winston in NYC to have altered, he said, "Wow, these jackets fit you right in all the right places. You got a great deal."

Have a look...

https://www.acontinuouslean.com/2011/03/24/hickey-freemans-secret-weapon/

Theoden


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

eagle2250 said:


> ^^
> While others might fail, O'Connell's will never disappoint the true Trad on the hunt!


If you're talking about the NOS sport coats from the 60s you have a point. My O'C's Navy Blazer, while not as extreme as Press, still has more diapering than I'd like in the shoulders.


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## Sartre (Mar 25, 2008)

On this topic, I found the following exchange in the Ivy-Style interview to be very interesting:

IS: But do you think that the current J. Press cut is the same as it used to be?​ RP: From what I've seen, it's a perfectly accurate representation of the historic pattern.​


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## dcjacobson (Jun 25, 2007)

> While others might fail, O'Connell's will never disappoint the true Trad on the hunt!


I bought two Southwick Harris Tweed jackets from O'Connell's in January, a grey and a brown herringbone. (My first purchase from them--not too many people have these items in 44 extra long.)

I would consider them natural-shoulder. When I put one on, I feel like I've been transported back into time to the Yale campus!

An earlier poster said it depends on what you buy from them, so it's best to ask. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that _nothing_ they have is natural-shoulder.

Good luck,
Don


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## Patrick06790 (Apr 10, 2005)

There's no single answer to any of this. 

After a whole lot of trial and error, emphasis on the latter, I've found that for my sloping shoulders a stronger shoulder looks good — provided the rest of the jacket fits.

The jackets I have with little or no shoulder construction are all about a half inch smaller in the shoulder area than the more structured ones. Loose fabric hanging off a shoulder looks just as bad as the extended shoulder (or football player effect).

That said, except for a couple of DBs I don't have anything that would fit into the big shoulder category.

The most recent Press jacket I have is from two years ago. It's got some structure, all right, but it doesn't look bulky.

When thrifting or looking on eBay, know your shoulder measurement. If that isn't right, nothing else will matter.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Patrick is right. My Eddy Jacobs Suit has a really soft shoulder but not that noticeable because it's a tab big on me. 

The only solution for this soft shoulder search is to finally get an MTO suit from a reputable trad tailor. Then the next thread will be "the most affordable MTO tailor for trad suit." :icon_smile_big:


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

FYI. Just got an email from Bestmastertailor. He said that H. Freeman 3/2 sacks start at $596 MTM with 14 swatches to choose from. He has the softest shoulder option with just canvass and no padding at all. Now that's a deal!


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

The problem isn't Press, the problem is Cohen. Cohen makes a very heavily padded shoulder. I have a true S. Cohen labeled suit that I won't wear. The shoulders are just horrible. There are soft shouldered brands out there, they just aren't normally at mass market retailers. I just picked up a linen Southwick coat, which is made for the Spring 2011 collection and has minimal padding. I tried on a Coppley coat that was 3/8 lined in a feather weight wool and I wasn't sure if it had any padding. I have no idea why you'd want to spend $1400 on a Ralph suit or coat. A good sale is a different story.

TNSIL is dead (or at least barely breathing) because 99% of the suit buying public could care less about the amount of shoulder padding. But it's certainly not impossible, or even difficult, to obtain a natural shouldered garment. You just have to pay up to get one. Southwick, H. Freeman, Hickey Freeman, Coppley, and Samuelsohn can all make a great soft shoulder made in North America for far less than anything off the rack at Polo. You can also add as many bells and whistles as you like.


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## JakeLA (Oct 30, 2006)

You can even get an unpadded shoulder from these guys, whoever they are. A Google search reveals they make all of Bill O'Reilly's suits.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

RIP TNSIL. Arrivederci. See you in Napoli.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

JakeLA said:


> You can even get an unpadded shoulder from these guys, whoever they are. A Google search reveals they make all of Bill O'Reilly's suits.


John Daniel is good stuff. They have one of the largest fabric books of any MTM program. I think it's a little overpriced. You could get MTM Southwick or H. Freeman for quite a bit less.


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## nolan50410 (Dec 5, 2006)

Trip English said:


> RIP TNSIL. Arrivederci. See you in Napoli.


I think the Italians as a whole have a solid understanding of TNSIL. I've even seen several Brioni pieces that did have the Roman aesthetic, but were far less padded than anything Cohen makes for Press. Isn't Rubanacci (spelling?) considered one of the better options in Naples?


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I couldn't say what Rubinacci's overall reputation is. Most of my suiting and sport coats are Ralph Lauren which are made in Italy. Shirt shoulder, 3/2 roll. Most of my shirts are Borrelli. After years of diving into the Trad pool and hitting the bottom I'm moving to a more integrated style that makes use of some Trad items, but incorporates them into my (still) predominantly Italian wardrobe. 

The quality and cut of most modern Trad items are unacceptable and thrifting has not proven a realistic alternative. I'm certainly not going to show up on WAYWT in full windsor knots or anything, but after chasing the aesthetic I've found the whole genre to be too shallow to support the amount of attention I like to pay to my wardrobe. No one is currently "practicing the craft" and I'm not a member of the Society for Creative Anachronisms.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

Trip,

First off, congrats on your most recent appearance on "Male Devices", that shot certainly enhances the style of miniature horse.



Anyways, what other trad items are you bottoming out on?

You make good points, especially in regard to Press. Perhaps the one shop that (save for the shoulder on their jackets) I feel I could be content with an entire wardrobe only of their stuff.

I'm sure others here feel the same way you do, and are less hidebound about sticking to rigid trad guidelines.
AlanC and Orgetorix always have great outfits on WAYWN that mix in plenty of non-trad elements.
Mafoofan on styleforum does a great job of mixing OCBDs, repp-stripe ties and longwings with Rubannaci jackets.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

Wouldn't less padding mean less expense for suit manufacturers? What is going on? What does a man have to get less for what he pays for? :icon_smile_big:


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## Cardinals5 (Jun 16, 2009)

nolan50410 said:


> I think the Italians as a whole have a solid understanding of TNSIL.


Not to swat a bee's nest, but I don't see anything TNSIL about this jacket. It's a 2 button front, darted, dual vented, slightly roped shoulders, no swelled edges, no lapped seams, three buttons on the sleeve... A lack of shoulder padding doesn't make a jacket TNSIL.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I didn't realize I'd been pictured with my miniature horse! 

Anyways, I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say that TNSIL is a dead language. We fish its relics out of the thrift stores when we can, but even those of us who can walk into a J.Press or a Brooks Brothers can't really find the genuine article. The style is being imitated more successfully than it's being practiced by RL Rugby, Club Monaco, J.Crew and others (that would probably turn many forum members green).

It would be nice to see TNSIL undergo the same sort of renaissance that work-wear has seen the past few years, but it seems unlikely. With "prep" becoming as ubiquitous as any fashion trend in my lifetime, it's now or never for TNSIL. 

It's all well and good to say that trads can go on year after year without an eye toward the runway or the glossies, but when the thrift stores run dry and the lead time on BB OCBDs goes from 4 months to 9 months, what can you really do? 

For me, as someone who practices dressing as a hobby, I can't be satisfied with such a paucity of offerings. I can only continue with the Italian-American hybrid that I've been working on for years. I'd rather slip into a Kiton jacket and sip mint juleps wit Sid Mashburn then try and find one more sport coat with tattered lining in the salvation army. 

I'm not saying I'm going to pull a Coleman or anything, just that I'll probably retire my M2s and sacks going forward.


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## Thom Browne's Schooldays (Jul 29, 2007)

Sorry trip, but you've lost me.

The genuine article of what?

Aside from jackets with decent shoulders, what do Rugby, J.Crew and Club Monaco have that Press doesn't?


I'm not trying to convince you of anything, nor do I think you're Italian-influenced style is a bad thing, but I just don;t understand why you couldn't just wear your ocbds and bills with a Polo natural shoulder jacket.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

It doesn't take a skilled use of the search function to find general condemnation of the state of lining in the modern collar, the over-padding of modern shoulders, etc. Sure you can point to Alden & Bills, but even Alden's most interesting work is being done through collaborations. I'm not talking about lime green Mark McNairy junk, but just good solid shoes. 

We've joked from time to time that Trad would seem to run contrary to the idea of a deep and complex wardrobe, but it's easy to see that this is not the case. We're all eager to grab one more little iconic item to add to the wardrobe. Given all the fantastic clothes that are tangential to traditional mens style, I just don't see any reason to artificially confine myself to the canon anymore. No big revelation.


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## leisureclass (Jan 31, 2011)

I thought the point of any subculture that is based around collecting, is that what it is preaching the values of isn't exactly easy to find. See any genre of LP obsession, comics, being a true punk. It seems like this all comes back to authenticity. Who follows these rules in the most authentically soft shouldered TNSIL way? But, conversely it's also not about following rules. Either way, neither of these things should be for sale at the mall, or any other store. There should be a hunt involved, which is part of the indoctrination and membership to any subculture. Maybe I'm just young still, not jaded on trolling the bay and digging at a thrift. As long as people are still wearing the stuff, it still exists, and as a subculture none of this will ever be part of the norm, like it was in the early 60s. 

This wasn't directed at anyone, it's just my tangentially related 2 cents.


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## Cowtown (Aug 10, 2006)

Trip - I share your appreciation for RL jackets. They have a wonderfully soft and unpadded shoulder. Have you tried O'Connells? I have purchased two suits from them and have been quite pleased. One was an NOS with the same shoulders as RL and the other was an H. Freeman with very lightly padded shoulders.


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

I went to a JCPenny a few days ago and tried on their Stafford suits while waiting for my family. Many may not like to hear this but, the classic cut and shoulders of their Stafford suits I would say are far better than J.Press and green label RLs. They are padded but not so terrible. If JCP would just lose the darts, I will be very happy already, never mind the 3rd retarded button that we so long for. I can get that added at any decent tailor.


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## Theoden (Dec 16, 2009)

Trip English said:


> It doesn't take a skilled use of the search function to find general condemnation of the state of lining in the modern collar, the over-padding of modern shoulders, etc. Sure you can point to Alden & Bills, but even Alden's most interesting work is being done through collaborations. I'm not talking about lime green Mark McNairy junk, but just good solid shoes.
> 
> We've joked from time to time that Trad would seem to run contrary to the idea of a deep and complex wardrobe, but it's easy to see that this is not the case. We're all eager to grab one more little iconic item to add to the wardrobe. Given all the fantastic clothes that are tangential to traditional mens style, I just don't see any reason to artificially confine myself to the canon anymore. No big revelation.


Trip,

I'm not a regular on the Trad forum, but I've been growing in appreciation of the style. I think we all need to work with what we like and is flattering. Since I'm a 48R (not a small man ;-), 3/2 rolls and flat front trousers (unless they are custom made) are not going to look great on me (as far as suiting goes). Pleats and 2 buttons with slight waist suppression generally flatter me more. If it looks good and is well made, I walk away happy. The items I like from the trad canon are khakis (that's the only flat front that works for me), OCBD shirts, tweed and all the lovely shoes can get from AE and Alden. A high-quality simplicity.

I posted something earlier this thread with a link -- you might want to check out the newer Hickey Freeman offerings. They are embracing natural shoulder with a new designer who apparently knows how to make them well. If you can stand darts, you will get a lovely, well made natural shoulder jacket that is fully canvassed. And given it's not hard to get heavily discounted Hickey Freeman jackets and suits in outlets and warehouse sales, you can do well for yourself.

You used the word "fantastic". That's a good way of looking at it. Somehow, the Italians seem to always look fantastic.

--Theoden


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## maximar (Jan 11, 2010)

I love HIckey Freeman even more now after reading about their "secret weapon." More power to them! I'm thankful they stayed in the US.


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## dcjacobson (Jun 25, 2007)

> TNSIL is dead (or at least barely breathing) because 99% of the suit buying public


Yes, we are dealing with a small slice of a small slice. From where I sit, living in the midwest U.S., the suit buying public constitutes only 1% of the male population!

Don


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

Are the terms "soft shoulder" and "natural shoulder" interchangeable? I sort of think not. The softest shoulder is a t-shirt. A natural shoulder is a complicated artifice. It's not like they're actually natural, the kind of thing that grows on trees. They are a style of garment shoulder. I recall that, in the interesting interview with Mr Press, who ran the operation, which Patrick linked somewhere, he said there was no one outside of America who knew how to make them. Less padding, batting, wadding, canvas, etc is used than in most shoulder styles, but it's the lines, the way it relates to the arm and back, and the way it moves that distinguishes it from other styles. It's a wonderfully named style, and we may look at it and think "nature," but it's art. I think that those wonderful Neopolitan jackets are as soft-shouldered as can be, but there is no mistaking them for a natural shoulder suit. Heck, Cards 5 even has Corbin "natural shoulder slacks." The hall of fame post cited above is very good on this subject.


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I'm not using the term soft or natural shoulder in any technical sense. I'm venting about my disappointment in the state of The Great Tradition and the conclusions that I've come to since developing dressing as a major hobby. 

The general spirit of Trad appeals to me. Continuity, practicality, ruggedness, etc. but there are too few people practicing the craft to satisfy a hobbyist. I've physically tried on the majority of Trad icons and found most of them wanting in one way or another. Contrast that with the re-birth of Prep and the onslaught of work-wear. Are they authentic? Maybe not, but there among the follies and the cash grabs are more than enough True Believers to originate and propagate devotees.


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## The Rambler (Feb 18, 2010)

not sure if I follow Trip, because I've sort of failed to notice this "rebirth" thing. I hate to discuss "trad,", but I think it's surrounded on one side by anglo-trad, and on the other, boho-trad, which has certain italian leanings: that's your side :biggrin2:


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## Trip English (Dec 22, 2008)

I was thinking of creating an alter ego "Paulo Itlaia" but I couldn't get the right feel in the Mad Men app.


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